{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The culture war never seems to end. My guest, Isaac Butler, takes us through part of its history in his new book, \"The Perfect Moment: God, Sex, Art, And The Birth Of America's Culture Wars.\" Butler says the conflict had a transformative effect on him because, at the same time the culture wars hurdled toward their climax, art saved his life. His new book begins in 1974 in West Virginia with the banning of many books and a county's new school curricula, with the power of the Christian right behind the ban. They were also behind the attacks on Martin Scorsese's film \"The Last Temptation Of Christ\" and the taboo-breaking artwork of Robert Mapplethorpe and David Wojnarowicz, who were accused of creating pornography, and Andres Serrano, who was accused of creating blasphemous art. The story continues with attacks on the NEA's federal funding for the arts. Isaac Butler is the author of the previous books \"The World Only Spins Forward,\" about the play \"Angels In America,\" and \"The Method,\" about the history of the acting technique known as the method. We recorded our interview last Thursday. On Friday, the Texas Board of Education approved a new curriculum for students grade K-12, mandating each grade to have at least one Bible passage as required reading. Many parents and teachers are alarmed as the culture wars continue. Isaac Butler, welcome back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 1, "text": "So one of the main characters in your book is one of the leaders of the attacks on the artists who are in your book, and I'm thinking of Donald Wildmon. And he's one of the leading figures behind the first attack, where your history begins. So let's start with - who is Donald Wildmon?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. It's great to be here."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 2, "text": "Well, let's go back to 1974 in Kanawha County, West Virginia, where there was new school curricula from the school board. And there was one person who held out on some of the books - on many of the books - that were in this new curricula. Her name was Alice Moore. She was married to a Church of Christ minister, and she also opposed sex education. So she's one person on the board. But how does Donald Wildmon enter the act?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Donald Wildmon is a really fascinating eccentric character who unfortunately died right as I was starting, you know, doing my interviews for the book. So I didn't get to talk to him, which is unfortun"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 3, "text": "So if they created a template, what was the template?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Alice Moore is a really - also a really fascinating figure. You know, the Kanawha County Textbook War, which is what it sort of came to be called, was a thing I just discovered during research. "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 4, "text": "So what were some of the books that were removed from the curricula as a result of this pressure campaign?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it starts with a really intense sense of grievance or performance of grievance - that other people expressing their rights, essentially, other people's speech is oppressing you, that other peopl"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Do you see similarities between this 1974 case and what's happening now with the banning of books and Don't Say Gay?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it's - there's hundreds of them, right? And it's everything from, you know, essays by James Baldwin to - there's a picture book of \"Jack And The Beanstalk\" that someone objects to because ther"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 6, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Isaac Butler. He's the author of the new book \"The Perfect Moment: God, Sex, Art, And The Birth Of America's Culture Wars.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I absolutely do. The difference now, of course, is that they're in charge. You know, Ron DeSantis and the Republicans have a firm grip on the government in Florida. They have gotten those school"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 7, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Isaac Butler, author of \"The Perfect Moment: God, Sex, Art, And The Birth Of America's Culture Wars.\" It focuses on the religious right's attacks on certain books, art and film of the '70s, '80s and '90s. So let's jump ahead to the late '80s and early '90s, when transgressive art was very popular, and it was very unpopular", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I absolutely do. The difference now, of course, is that they're in charge. You know, Ron DeSantis and the Republicans have a firm grip on the government in Florida. They have gotten those school"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 8, "text": "on the religious right, and Donald Wildmon, again, becomes a main character in this story. So let's start with Andres Serrano, who is best known for his photograph \"Piss Christ.\" And it was a part of a series that he called Immersions in which the images were based on body fluids, either from animals or from people. And it could range from blood to milk - in this case, urine. So I want you to describe the image. And then we'll hear an excerpt of my interview with Andres Serrano in which he talks about it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I absolutely do. The difference now, of course, is that they're in charge. You know, Ron DeSantis and the Republicans have a firm grip on the government in Florida. They have gotten those school"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 9, "text": "There's something almost celestial about it because there's no ground, there's no sky. It's Christ, you know, like, on the cross, kind of blurry, who seems to be, like, floating in this ethereal space. And it's very unearthly looking.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "to Christ and Christ's sacrifice. It is a crucifix that is angled a little bit towards the viewer, so the end of one of the arms is sort of disappearing into nothing. And it is in this murky kind of f"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 10, "text": "It's almost as if, like, Christ is rising on the cross and is kind of celestial-looking, especially, like, if you don't know how it was made.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I find the photograph unbelievably moving, even knowing how it's made. And, you know, like, I'm a Jew. I still - but I still..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 12, "text": "So let's hear an excerpt of the interview that I recorded with Andres Serrano in 1993. And it starts with him describing it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Think that that photograph is unbelievably moving and beautiful. And, you know, Serrano was raised Catholic, considers himself, you know, a Christian. He met Pope Francis. You know, he is wrestling"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 13, "text": "This was a photograph.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a very mysterious image. I think, as many people have pointed out, without the title, it would've been seen as a, you know, very reverential treatment of the crucifix and, you know, fit to hang i"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 14, "text": "But the crucifix was actually immersed in urine.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Yours.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 16, "text": "Now, when you put those two together, a lot of people see it as blasphemous.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 17, "text": "What were you saying about religion in that piece?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I never saw it that way. And I remember when I first showed the work in New York that this woman - she was married to a reverend - she said to me, you know, when it comes to religion, "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 18, "text": "What was it like for you to be at the center of a national controversy, to have your art addressed on the Senate floor?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I would say that it's probably a reflection of my own ambivalent feelings about my Catholic upbringing. Aside from that, there's nothing specific. You know, all sorts of claims have been made fo"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 19, "text": "That was the artist Andres Serrano, recorded in 1993 on FRESH AIR. And my guest is Isaac Butler, author of the new book \"The Perfect Moment: God, Sex, Art, And The Birth Of America's Culture Wars.\" So it's so interesting because Serrano was, like, a total unknown...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was very strange. I mean, at first, I couldn't believe it when they first told me that this was going on - that thousands of people, you know, at the request of the American Family Association, wer"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 20, "text": "...Until he was in this touring show because he was - I think he'd won a kind of competition. And all of the winners were in this group show that was touring. So he mentions in the excerpt that we just heard the American Family Association. That's Donald Wildmon's group, who we've been talking about. So how did Wildmon pick up on this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "is not, like, a major art thing. And then it got picked up by Jesse Helms - Senator Jesse Helms - who's from North Carolina, which is where SECCA was based, and was a major opponent of the arts and ar"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 22, "text": "His paintings were worth so much more.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, yeah, he's a mischievous guy, you know? And so that..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 23, "text": "His gallery wanted to decline doing another show with him because in his previous gallery show he'd only sold, like, one photograph. But after the controversy, you know, he was selling a lot, and he was a - you know, it was a boon to his career.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 24, "text": "But not for the NEA.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a boon to his career. It reunited him with a daughter he had had previously that he wasn't, you know, in contact with. I mean, it was a really life-changing event for him. It, you know..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 25, "text": "I mean, it was life-changing but bad.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But not for the NEA, no. The NEA..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 26, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yes. It's a great way of putting it, Terry. Life-changing but bad. That should have been the title..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 27, "text": "So if we flash-forward to today, how do you see the attacks on the NEA from the '80s and '90s echoing today? And what state do you see the NEA being in today?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Of the book. But the - yeah, so what happens to the NEA at this point is that there's a huge amount of scrutiny placed on it and its grants. And the NEA had had, like, a couple of minor controversi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 28, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you. We have to take a break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Isaac Butler. He's the author of the new book \"The Perfect Moment: God, Sex, Art, And The Birth Of America's Culture Wars.\" We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'll answer that second question first, which is just to say in the current proposed budget, the NEA is being sunsetted. The current proposed budget for '27 has the NEA, the - and the NEH given "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with director and cultural historian Isaac Butler, author of the new book \"The Perfect Moment: God, Sex, Art, And The Birth Of America's Culture Wars.\" He previously was on the show for his book \"The Method,\" which is a history of the acting approach known as the method. When we left off, we were talking about some of the artists at the center of the culture wars in the 1980s and '90s because their work was considered pornographic or blasphemous. So Robert Mapplethorpe, even if our listeners don't know his work, his photographs - one photograph he took is especially famous 'cause it's the album cover of Patti Smith's first album, \"Horses.\" It's this iconic photo in which she's wearing a white button-down, like, men's shirt, and an untied tie is dangling from her neck. And she has, like, a suit jacket hanging from her thumb, draped over her shoulder. It's a beautiful photo.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'll answer that second question first, which is just to say in the current proposed budget, the NEA is being sunsetted. The current proposed budget for '27 has the NEA, the - and the NEH given "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 30, "text": "Exactly. So true.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think anyone's ever looked cooler than Patti Smith looks in that photograph."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 31, "text": "Yes. Absolutely. But what he became really famous for was his graphic photographs of men having sex with each other, with a focus sometimes on sadomasochism. And the characters in his photos were often Black men...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You have to go to, like, Marlon Brando in \"The Wild One\" or something to get someone who just looked that cool. She looked so cool. It's unbelievable."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 32, "text": "...Which is something that he was sometimes criticized for - for possibly, like, fetishizing Black bodies.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 33, "text": "Now, this is where the story interconnects with your family story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I actually think it's unquestionable that he fetishized Black bodies. I mean, you look at the things that he said privately and you just look at the photographs of Black men, eroticized "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 34, "text": "Because after the Corcoran Gallery in Washington decides it's too controversial, they cancel their showing. They cancel their exhibit. And a group called the Washington Project for the Arts decides, we should pick it up. We should display this work. And this is where your mother comes in. Was she on the board of the WPA?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Was your mother firm in her decision to vote for taking on this exhibit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mother joined the board at some point that summer. She doesn't remember exactly when. But she did say to me, the very first board meeting I went to was when we voted on whether or not to take \"The "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 36, "text": "So let's move on and talk about another artist who was condemned by the religious right for their work. And this is David Wojnarowicz, who was also targeted by Donald Wildmon, the head of the American Family Association. And he was accused of pornography, and he insisted that his sexual images were part of a larger political artistic context 'cause some of this work was in collages. So before we talk about him, I want you to say a few words about his work, and then we'll hear him describing it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yeah. My mother absolutely was. I will say my mother is not interviewed in the book. She is actually one of the most charming, extroverted, you know, incredible people in the world. But she hates"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 37, "text": "So let's hear an excerpt of the interview I recorded with him in 1990, and this was two years before he died of AIDS at the age of 37. And this was recorded the week he took Donald Wildmon to court and sued him for misrepresenting him and taking him out of context. And he was awaiting a verdict on this at the time that we spoke. So this excerpt starts with Wojnarowicz talking about how Donald Wildmon used his art and took Wojnarowicz's art out of context.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wojnarowicz is a really hard figure to summarize 'cause he's such a polymath. He's a writer. He's a activist with ACT UP. You know, he's a visual artist. He does collages, installations, paintings. He"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 38, "text": "What charges were made about your art in the literature that was sent out with images from your work in it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What he did was he excised from the images small fragments that dealt with sexual activity or depicted sexual activity that were in a political and artistic context, stripped the context from around t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 39, "text": "Now, you're saying that he took one component of a larger mixed media collage work.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was sent out in an envelope that was marked - warning, extremely offensive materials enclosed - or something. I don't have the envelope in front of me, so that's an approximate description of"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 40, "text": "And blew that up and presented that as being representative of your work. You've been working with mixed media images...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 41, "text": "...For a long time. Tell us a little bit about why you work in that form.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 42, "text": "One of the issues that brought your work into the center of national controversy was the 1989 group show called Witnesses: Against Our Vanishing, about the influence of AIDS on aesthetics, sexuality and culture. This was a group show at a gallery called Artists Space in New York. What was your reaction when after the NEA reinstated money for the show, it still refused to fund the catalog because of your essay?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess, emotionally and intellectually, it's the only way that I can represent what my experience in the world is, given that when we walk out in the street, we're so heavily bombarded with visual in"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 43, "text": "That was the artist David Wojnarowicz recorded in 1990. And my guest is Isaac Butler, author of a new book called \"The Perfect Moment,\" which is a history of the culture wars. So can you describe the lawsuit that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I found it very distressing because, one, it set a precedent in terms of funding that now single objects can be separated from a show because somebody doesn't like their political content. Two, it"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 44, "text": "...Wojnarowicz was talking about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 45, "text": "This is another instance where the artist wins - in this case, actually wins in court.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. So Wojnarowicz is suing Wildmon over this tactic that the right is really good at, going back to Kanawha and forward to today, which is taking excerpts of something out of context and saying that"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 46, "text": "But the NEA suffers. 'Cause Donald Wildmon's goal was to just, like, get rid of the NEA.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 47, "text": "And it didn't get rid of the NEA, but with each of these attacks, I think the NEA becomes weaker.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes, that is true. I mean..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 48, "text": "My guest is Isaac Butler, author of the new book \"The Perfect Moment: God, Sex, Art, And The Birth Of America's Culture Wars.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. With each of these attacks, the NEA becomes weaker, the NEA loses allies in Congress. It's death by 1,000 cuts, right? With each of these things that happens, you know, the NEA is either - is for"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 49, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Isaac Butler, author of \"The Perfect Moment: God, Sex, Art, And The Birth Of America's Culture Wars.\" It focuses on the religious right's attacks on certain books, art and film of the '70s, '80s and '90s. You write in your book that at the same time the culture wars were reaching their peak in the '90s, that you were transformed by the culture wars and by art. What do you mean by that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. With each of these attacks, the NEA becomes weaker, the NEA loses allies in Congress. It's death by 1,000 cuts, right? With each of these things that happens, you know, the NEA is either - is for"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 50, "text": "How do you think the AIDS epidemic, in some ways, really changed American art or aspects of American art? People who were gay and especially gay people who had AIDS were considered dangerous...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, when I was a kid, I was - like a lot of theater kids, I was kind of a lonely, bullied, unhappy child. And I got - but I loved acting and I loved theater. And I wound up cast in this pr"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 51, "text": "...Outsiders, threats to our health and culture and marriage, threats to our marriage. I mean, it was that era. So it's, I think, understandable why they made transgressive art, because they were - their their way of living was considered - just being gay was considered transgressive.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 52, "text": "And I don't want to completely put that in the past tense 'cause that's kind of resurfaced, that sense of like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, when you have a congressman..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 53, "text": "...It's too transgressive, you can't live that way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's absolutely..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 54, "text": "Let's withdraw legalizing gay marriage.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's especially..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 55, "text": "I don't want to leave the left completely off the hook when it comes to objecting to art, though the left is not extreme about this in the way that the right has been. But one of the shows that you've written about is a show by Philip Guston, who was a light visual artist. And he had a show - they were images depicting the clan - members of the clan - but in kind of clownish ways. It was pretty obviously satirical work. And there were people on the left in the art world who objected to this exhibit. Can you explain?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, well, and we see it even more right now with the transgender community, who are losing rights that they used to have, who are being shunned from the public square, who are, you know, faced with "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 56, "text": "Yeah, the klan hated Jews, too. I mean, it wasn't...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So this is a posthumous retrospective of Philip Guston that was originating in the U.K. and then touring to the United States. And actually, this exhibit and the fallout of it was the initial im"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 57, "text": "...Just Black people, it was Jewish people. It was Catholics, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 58, "text": "What do you mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, absolutely. And, you know, one of his early murals that he did during the New Deal, if I recall correctly, was actually destroyed by a crowd that included klansmen. So, you know, he himself had b"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 59, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Isaac Butler. He's the author of the new book \"The Perfect Moment: God, Sex, Art, And The Birth Of America's Culture Wars.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what I mean is, like, you know, yes, the left does stuff around expression that is annoying and sometimes has material consequences, and I don't like it, and I condemn it and I have for a long t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 60, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Isaac Butler, author of \"The Perfect Moment: God, Sex, Art, And The Birth Of America's Culture Wars.\" It focuses on the religious right's attacks on certain books, art and film of the '70s, '80s and '90s. A lot of art has become very political now 'cause we're living in such a divisive time. And there are artists who feel like art is irrelevant unless you're really speaking to the moment and to the crises that we're in. And you object to that and - you know, to the sense that, like, art needs to, like, speak to the moment and be political. Tell us about your objections to that way of thinking.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what I mean is, like, you know, yes, the left does stuff around expression that is annoying and sometimes has material consequences, and I don't like it, and I condemn it and I have for a long t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 61, "text": "So if we were to extend your book to the present, what would you be writing about President Trump and the culture wars?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My objection is mainly to the viewing of it as a requirement. You know, I think it's great when art speaks to the moment, but the idea that that's the only art that's worth doing I find very depressin"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 62, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the book would, you know, become infinite 'cause it seems like they pick..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 63, "text": "Yeah. And it wouldn't be finished by the time it was published.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...A culture war about everything. Like, do I really have to do a chapter about whether it's OK that Helen of Troy is Black in the new Christopher Nolan movie? You know, like, it just seems like even "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 64, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Not only would it not be finished by the time it was published, it would be immediately obsolete."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 65, "text": "Well, Isaac Butler, it's been great to have you back on the show. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, books are a bad art form for commenting on things that are happening right now because they take so long to make. I mean, they physically take so long to make that they're sort of outdated t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 66, "text": "Isaac Butler is the author of the new book \"The Perfect Moment: God, Sex, Art, And The Birth Of America's Culture Wars.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, a relatively new breed of ticks spreading across regions of America. They're ready to feed on us and bringing dangerous illness and allergies that could be lethal. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram - @nprfreshair.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, thank you so much for having me."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5876197", "date": "2026-06-30", "guest": "Isaac Butler", "title": "'The Perfect Moment' makes the case that culture wars have 'completely eaten America'", "question_index": 67, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Sam Briger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez-Wisler. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our cohost is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, thank you so much for having me."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. As you head out to summer barbecues, picnics, hikes and other great summer activities, you may already be vigilant about ticks because of lime disease, but there is a potentially more dangerous tick that you may not be aware of called the lone star. And unlike other ticks, it actively pursues its hosts. The lone star is spreading across vast regions of the U.S., and the illness it carries, the alpha-gal syndrome, is spreading in more than 30 countries on six continents, often spread by various other ticks. The alpha-gal syndrome is more difficult to diagnose and treat than lime disease, and the symptoms are more severe. In many cases, the victim develops an allergy to all red meat, including nearly microscopic particles of it. The allergy can become so extreme it can kill you. Milder cases can change your life if you're a meat eater or if you have cows or work on a cattle ranch or in the food industry, including restaurants. Pest control experts and medical research scientists have been confounded about what to do. In an article in The New Yorker titled \"The Tick That Hunts Down Its Hosts - Including Us,\" my guest, Burkhard Bilger, reports on what we know about how the tick operates, how it has multiplied and vastly extended its territory, how it afflicts the people it feeds on, and the latest ideas about how to limit the infestation and treat people with alpha-gal syndrome. Bilger is a staff writer for The New Yorker and author of the 2023 book \"Fatherland,\" about his German grandfather who joined the Nazi Party but worked with the French Resistance. Burkhard Bilger, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Your piece was fascinating, upsetting. And I'm really glad you wrote it, 'cause it's something we should really be vigilant about. So the first thing I want to do is let our listeners know how at risk they are by talking about where the ticks have spread and which places have the biggest infestations.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 1, "text": "So how do you know if you've been bitten by a lone star tick?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So this is a tick - the lone star tick - that used to be in the southeast, you know, and up through Virginia - up into the '50s, it rarely went north of Virginia. And it has now spread all the w"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 2, "text": "Does that make the syndrome even worse?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there's nothing like the bull's-eye rash that you get with deer ticks from Lyme disease. You really just have to see it and pick it off you or know you've been bitten. In some cases, too, people"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 3, "text": "So if you have to see the tick or see the bite, what are you looking for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, the more bites you get, the higher your antibody levels tend to be, and the greater your chances of getting the syndrome. It's a really weird cryptic disease because, you know, there are peopl"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 4, "text": "So you mentioned hives, rashes, difficulty breathing. The most infamous symptom of alpha-gal syndrome is an allergy to red meat, which seems crazy. How much exposure do you need? I guess this varies with the person. But give us a sense of the range of allergy to red meat that you might experience with alpha-gal syndrome.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, you can identify the lone star tick by a little white dot on its back, and that's distinctive. But other than that, really, the only thing you can look for after that is some kind of symptoms."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 5, "text": "Because it comes from cows.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, early on, I think you could - just had one tick bite, and that - often it takes, you know, a substantial - and if you've got the syndrome, if you've got these allergy antibodies, you might eat a"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 6, "text": "Is beef used in any medications that you wouldn't think about, but if you had a really bad case of alpha-gal syndrome, you might end up being allergic to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because it comes from cows - I mean, anything essentially that contains the alpha-gal sugar molecule or carbohydrate. It's a molecule that all mammals contain, but not primates and not humans. And so "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 7, "text": "I guess we should add lanolin to this, too, 'cause that's in a lot of products.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. I mean, I think one of the most common one is simply gelatin capsules. You know, if you get ibuprofen or acetaminophen from gelatin capsules, that often has collagen in it from beef or fro"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 8, "text": "And if you look at the labels, will you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's just, like, the degree in which it has been incorporated. Even, like, drywall sometimes has, you know, cow hides in it. You know, it's just - it's all around us, and we don't even realize it."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Burkhard Bilger. His latest article in The New Yorker is titled \"The Tick That Hunts Down Its Hosts - Including Us.\" It's part of The New Yorker's Body Issue. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sometimes you will. I mean, there's a - there's an app called Fig that people are using who have alpha-gal that will give you, you know, a red, green or yellow light based on if it's safe or iffy or d"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Burkhard Bilger. His latest article in The New Yorker is titled \"The Tick That Hunts Down Its Hosts - Including Us. And it's about the lone star tick and the illness it causes, which is called alpha-gal syndrome. So has there ever been anything like a potentially lethal meat allergy before, spread by a tick or any other insect or anything?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sometimes you will. I mean, there's a - there's an app called Fig that people are using who have alpha-gal that will give you, you know, a red, green or yellow light based on if it's safe or iffy or d"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 11, "text": "So red meat is the problem. But, like, poultry, fish - they're OK?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I mean, this really came out of nowhere. And the scientists I spoke to - they all had kind of the same story. Back in the early 2000s - 2006, 2007, when this was discovered - it was kind of somewh"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 12, "text": "Do most doctors know how to identify alpha-gal syndrome or even know what it is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Any other kind of meat is fine. You know, a lot of the people I spoke to who had it - there was, you know, a big alpha-gal support group in Martha's Vineyard that I sat in with for a couple hour"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 13, "text": "Is an EpiPen effective if you start developing symptoms?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think now it's gotten to the point where they do. You know, there was a study in 2017 that looked at, I think, a hundred or more doctors' visits and found that only one in 10 identified the syndrome"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 14, "text": "So Lyme disease, which is also tick-borne, can be controlled if you take the right antibiotic in a short period of time after being bit. So what about alpha-gal? Like, is - outside of, like, an EpiPen, which can end the episode, is there any kind of antibiotic treatment or other treatment that's effective?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. It is. I mean, and I think EpiPen is essential if you're - if you have anaphylaxis or if you start to get really severe symptoms. Especially in rural areas, it's really important to have EpiPen a"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 15, "text": "If you're bitten by a lone star tick, what is the first thing you should do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there's certainly no cure. I mean, you can really get rid of Lyme disease with amoxicillin and doxycycline, but you can't do that with alpha-gal. One thing that's, I mean, a positive about it, I"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 16, "text": "So if you get bitten by the lone star tick, you shouldn't go right to the emergency room?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, there's not a lot you can do. You can certainly take it off. And there are procedures for taking ticks off. I mean, I think one thing that people should do when they get bitten is - there's "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 17, "text": "Should you eat meat and test yourself or just, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". No, no. You should try and get rid of the tick as quickly as possible and then, you know, have it in the back of your mind - horrible thing - but to - you know, to - if you're having any reactions, "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 18, "text": "...Avoid it out of fear? Like, what's - do you have any suggestions, any advice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 19, "text": "You make that sound easy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Boy. You know, I feel like, from what I'm hearing now, if you look at those data from Virginia, you know, and from Missouri, it's becoming such a common thing that I think we don't want to be overcaut"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 20, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is journalist Burkhard Bilger. His latest article in The New Yorker is titled \"The Tick That Hunts Down Its Hosts - Including Us,\" and it's about the lone star tick and the illness it carries, which is called alpha-gal syndrome. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Boy. You know, I feel like, from what I'm hearing now, if you look at those data from Virginia, you know, and from Missouri, it's becoming such a common thing that I think we don't want to be overcaut"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Burkhard Bilger. His latest article in The New Yorker, where he's a staff writer, is titled \"The Tick That Hunts Down Its Hosts - Including Us.\" The tick is the lone star tick. Its victims can develop alpha-gal syndrome, which is an allergy to all red meat so severe it can be lethal. You say that the descriptions that you heard of people who have alpha-gal syndrome sound like scenes from horror films. I have to ask you to describe what you've heard.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Boy. You know, I feel like, from what I'm hearing now, if you look at those data from Virginia, you know, and from Missouri, it's becoming such a common thing that I think we don't want to be overcaut"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 22, "text": "So how do the ticks travel? Do they travel on their hosts? Do they just kind of march across blades of grass like soldiers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, they're like these - almost like horror films about bodily possession or contamination. You know, there's this one woman who was six months pregnant. She and her husband had actually met"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 23, "text": "So before the 1970s, it was rare for lone star ticks to cross the Mason-Dixon line. And now they're as far north as Maine, as far west as Oklahoma. So what has caused the migration? Did - is it just, like, increasing populations or competition for food? Does climate change have anything to do with it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, the lone star tick is an interesting tick. I mean, it's funny talking to entomologists. I talked to a lot of entomologists in Georgia and Virginia and Martha's Vineyard and kind of all over th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 24, "text": "But how have they migrated? How do they travel?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think climate change has had a big part of it. It's certainly - they like warmer temperatures. And they were - you know, originally, their home territory was the Southeast. When I talked to ec"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 25, "text": "So they know - if people are around and they hunt down people to feed on them, how do they know that there are people around?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, they travel - they have lots of hosts. One of the things about ticks that makes them such a incredibly good disease vector in the modern world is they'll feed on anything that has blood. They'"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 26, "text": "So one of the places in the North with the greatest infestations is Martha's Vineyard. And, you know, that's the place where the Obamas summer. It's beautiful. It's scenic. I mean, the ticks don't appreciate all that. But...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, like, a lot of these kind of insects - they can sense carbon dioxide. I think that's a telltale signature, and they will kind of hone in on - home in on that. So that's one thing. I think they"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 27, "text": "And it's an island, so it's, like, harder to get to. How did Martha's Vineyard become, like, a gathering place for so many of these ticks?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 28, "text": "I'm going to have to end this interview right now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think you get a lot of necessary conditions at once. I mean, you have a place that used to be farmland and - you know, in the 19th century and then gradually got more and more reforestation. P"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 29, "text": "Let me reintroduce you, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Burkhard Bilger. His latest article in The New Yorker is titled \"The Tick That Hunts Down Its Hosts - Including Us.\" It's part of The New Yorker's Body Issue. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "in this beast that's choosing the wealthy. And in fact, it's not true, of course. You know, a lot of people I visited who had this were in, you know, poor farms in - or working-class folks in Missouri"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 30, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Burkhard Bilger. His latest article in The New Yorker is titled \"The Tick That Hunts Down Its Hosts - Including Us,\" and it's about the lone star tick and the illness it causes, which is called alpha-gal syndrome. When you made your trip to Martha's Vineyard to learn more about the lone star tick, you went out with Patrick Roden-Reynolds, who is the island's public health biologist. How did you protect yourselves? I mean, the ticks were looking for you - human blood.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "in this beast that's choosing the wealthy. And in fact, it's not true, of course. You know, a lot of people I visited who had this were in, you know, poor farms in - or working-class folks in Missouri"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 31, "text": "But you were out looking for them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 32, "text": "So you don't put the repellent on your skin, you wear clothes that are soaked in it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm a very enthusiastic carnivore. And the idea of this illness striking me was pretty upsetting. So I did what Roden-Reynolds did, and what kind of everybody I spoke to who spends a lot of time in th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 33, "text": "Why is it done that way, as opposed to what's typically done, I think, which is put it on your skin?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 34, "text": "So you're talking about buying pre-soaked clothing. Can you, like, buy a big vat of this stuff and soak your own clothes in it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think a lot of the things that are good on your skin - the sprays like DEET and so forth - don't really work with ticks that well. They may put them off a little bit, but they're not really ef"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 35, "text": "Does it smell?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah, yeah, you can do that. And also, I went to the Insect Shield factory in Greensboro, North Carolina, and in this warehouse, they just had giant piles of clothes. And I said, what is that? A"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 36, "text": "So I'm going to spell Permethrin for anybody who wants to look it up and do more research. It's P-E-R-M-E-T-H-R-I-N - Permethrin.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. And it's - you know, again, it's been used by the military for decades, so it's very safe. And I think they've done all kinds of crazy tests with high concentrations and still haven't had negative"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 37, "text": "So what if we attack the ticks with it? What if we spread Permethrin, like, throughout a place with a major infestation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 38, "text": "What are some of the proposals now for how to get these ticks under control? I mean, I'm not sure we'd ever completely eradicate them. That might be impossible. But we can try to minimize the infestations. So what have you been hearing about ways to do it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, everybody I spoke to said, look, that's a nonstarter. I mean, you can do that to a degree. Like, if you're about to have a lawn party, you could go out and, you know, spray Permethrin on"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 39, "text": "What would that look like? Like, who would be shooting them? And what would you be doing with all of those dead deer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, there's two basic avenues that I've seen, or maybe three. I mean, one is a - you know, like, the kind of magic bullet would be a vaccine, a human vaccine against tick-borne illness. And it cou"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 40, "text": "Do you think there'll be objections to it - this, like, mass slaughter of deer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's interesting. I mean, you know, the - I think the model on a very, very small - talking about microcosm, the smallest scale is Monhegan Island off the coast of Maine, where it's a much, much"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 41, "text": "Well, let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Burkhard Bilger. His latest article in The New Yorker is titled \"The Tick That Hunts Down Its Hosts - Including Us.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I feel like that's been a debate that's been ongoing for four decades. But it also feels like alpha-gal may finally be the thing that solves this or brings it to an end because on a place like Martha'"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 42, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Burkhard Bilger. His latest article 0N The New Yorker is titled \"The Tick That Hunts Down Its Hosts - Including Us.\" It's part of the magazine's Body Issue. And the tick we're talking about is the lone star tick, and the syndrome it's - it carries is called alpha-gal syndrome. And it often produces a very extreme allergy to meat. Toward the end of your article, you write something I really identified with. You said that after going on this tick research, you thought it would be really good to be back in New York City. You'd feel relatively safe surrounded by brick and concrete. But as it turned out, there was a health alert from the city as you got back. What was the health alert?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I feel like that's been a debate that's been ongoing for four decades. But it also feels like alpha-gal may finally be the thing that solves this or brings it to an end because on a place like Martha'"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 43, "text": "So you're not panicking yourself right now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was a health alert I discovered. I mean, I was kind of suddenly worried. I thought, wait a second. And I did a search for lone star ticks in New York, and I found a health alert, I mean, from"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 44, "text": "One more question. So I live in the city. There aren't deer in the urban part of the city where I live, but there's mice. And mice carry lone star ticks too, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I'm not. I'm not at all. You know, I do think it's scary. I mean, just being - it was interesting to be at The Safe Spoon restaurant in Springfield, Missouri, because it's a beef-growing area. You"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 45, "text": "So how can you know if you're safe if there's, like, you know, mice all over?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 46, "text": "Well, Burkhard Bilger, thank you so much for coming back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, to some degree, it's a question of density, right? Like, how many ticks are there? I mean, I think that's what they're coming up against in Martha's Vineyard, too, is, yeah, you can kill all the"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 47, "text": "And stay away from the ticks.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it's been a pleasure."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 48, "text": "Burkhard Bilger is a staff writer at The New Yorker. His new article is titled \"The Tick That Hunts Down Its Hosts - Including Us.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be romance novelist Kennedy Ryan. Her stories focus on people the genre has often left out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I will. Thank you. You too."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 49, "text": "She's the first Black author to win the RITA, romance's highest honor. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Black Girl, the fat girl, the sick girl, the disabled girl."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5877341", "date": "2026-07-01", "guest": "Burkhard Bilger", "title": "Lone star ticks are covering much of the U.S. Here's what you need to know", "question_index": 50, "text": "To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram - @nprfreshair. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Sam Briger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez-Wisler. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our cohost is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Black Girl, the fat girl, the sick girl, the disabled girl."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5900823", "date": "2026-07-20", "guest": "Harriet Clark", "title": "Harriet Clark's novel 'The Hill' draws on her 37 years visiting her mom in prison", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. One of the last actions of the extremist left-wing groups with roots in the 1960s was the Brink's robbery of 1981. Two militant groups, one, an offshoot of the Weather Underground, the other an offshoot of the Black Panthers, robbed a Brink's armored truck carrying over a million and a half dollars. It ended in a shootout in which one security guard and two police officers were killed. Judith Clark was a getaway driver who was sentenced to 75 years to life. It meant leaving behind her 11-month-old daughter. That daughter, Harriet Clark, is my guest. She's just published a novel that draws from her own experiences being raised by her grandparents and visiting her mother in prison every weekend for most of the 37 years her mother was incarcerated. It required traveling about an hour from New York City to Bedford Hills Correctional Facility, a maximum-security prison for women. Harriet knew her mother would never get out, but she did get out after being granted clemency and released on parole in 2019. Harriet Clark's new novel is called \"The Hill,\" a reference to the prison in the novel being on top of a hill. It's her first novel. She received the Paris Reviews Plimpton Prize and has received fellowships from the Iowa Writers' Workshop and the Wallace Stegner program. Harriet Clark, welcome to FRESH AIR. And congratulations on the book. You're an incredible writer, and I'm glad that you wrote this.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5900823", "date": "2026-07-20", "guest": "Harriet Clark", "title": "Harriet Clark's novel 'The Hill' draws on her 37 years visiting her mom in prison", "question_index": 1, "text": "I'm honored to hear you say that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is an absolute trip and thrill to be speaking with you. And I'm so grateful to be on this show. Thank you."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5900823", "date": "2026-07-20", "guest": "Harriet Clark", "title": "Harriet Clark's novel 'The Hill' draws on her 37 years visiting her mom in prison", "question_index": 2, "text": "I want to start with a reading that I think will help set up your story and your mother's story. And this is from pretty early in the book when Suzanna, the child, the main character, is leaving the dentist's office with her grandfather. And her grandfather has just had one of his teeth capped. So this is as they're leaving.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5900823", "date": "2026-07-20", "guest": "Harriet Clark", "title": "Harriet Clark's novel 'The Hill' draws on her 37 years visiting her mom in prison", "question_index": 3, "text": "How old were you when you first learned why your mother was in prison? How was it explained to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) My mother had robbed a bank, the first woman said. No, the second woman said, my mother had expropriated funds for the purpose of revolutionary struggle. The woman's tone suggested that she "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5900823", "date": "2026-07-20", "guest": "Harriet Clark", "title": "Harriet Clark's novel 'The Hill' draws on her 37 years visiting her mom in prison", "question_index": 4, "text": "When you found out that she was part of a revolutionary group and that the robbery was supposed to support the revolutionary cause, what did you make of that? Did you know enough about politics when you learned that? Did you know enough about radical movements and where this robbery fit in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't have a memory of coming into awareness of my mother's crime. It must've been explained to me. But I don't recall who explained it. My mother made clear from when I was very young that she was "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5900823", "date": "2026-07-20", "guest": "Harriet Clark", "title": "Harriet Clark's novel 'The Hill' draws on her 37 years visiting her mom in prison", "question_index": 5, "text": "Would you describe how the prison looked to you as a child?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Unlike Suzanna, I continued to have a relationship to the women in my mother's collective. I had a half-sister, and so I returned to that collective every three weeks for the weekend. And they were "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5900823", "date": "2026-07-20", "guest": "Harriet Clark", "title": "Harriet Clark's novel 'The Hill' draws on her 37 years visiting her mom in prison", "question_index": 6, "text": "The prison was like your home, or your second home, because you were there every Saturday. Suzanna, in your novel...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It's hard for me to remember what the prison looked like to me as a child because I went there for almost 40 years, and it changed a lot. In that 40 years, it became much more prison-like. You know,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5900823", "date": "2026-07-20", "guest": "Harriet Clark", "title": "Harriet Clark's novel 'The Hill' draws on her 37 years visiting her mom in prison", "question_index": 7, "text": "...Vows to keep returning there for the rest of her mother's life, since the assumption was she was going to be there for the rest of her life. And that gives Suzanna a sense of security, of routine, of safety and of purpose, and, of course, of connection with her mother. Did you feel that way, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5900823", "date": "2026-07-20", "guest": "Harriet Clark", "title": "Harriet Clark's novel 'The Hill' draws on her 37 years visiting her mom in prison", "question_index": 8, "text": "Was it a good feeling to know she would be there forever? I mean, it was prison. On the other hand, she was always there. She was always waiting for you. You always knew where to find her.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, yes and no. I think that there is a way that the prison was a holding container for me and is meant to be a holding container for Suzanna. I think, in the prison, she's existing inside pattern"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5900823", "date": "2026-07-20", "guest": "Harriet Clark", "title": "Harriet Clark's novel 'The Hill' draws on her 37 years visiting her mom in prison", "question_index": 9, "text": "You know, I was thinking that writing the novel was in a way of, like, staying visiting your mother in prison. It took you about 20 years, I think...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I think that I did experience myself as having a peace that the children around me did not have because, you know, most children lose their mothers to prison within their active awareness. You kn"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5900823", "date": "2026-07-20", "guest": "Harriet Clark", "title": "Harriet Clark's novel 'The Hill' draws on her 37 years visiting her mom in prison", "question_index": 10, "text": "...To finish. It's not like it was the only thing you were doing, but you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5900823", "date": "2026-07-20", "guest": "Harriet Clark", "title": "Harriet Clark's novel 'The Hill' draws on her 37 years visiting her mom in prison", "question_index": 11, "text": "...Worked on it for 20 years until you felt like you got it right. And so for those 20 years, like, you were, like, living in prison", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5900823", "date": "2026-07-20", "guest": "Harriet Clark", "title": "Harriet Clark's novel 'The Hill' draws on her 37 years visiting her mom in prison", "question_index": 12, "text": ". And so there were many years after your mother got out when you were still, in your writing life, in prison. And did you want to be there? Do you feel like there were still things you had to work out, or that you weren't ready yet to leave that part of your life or to feel like you comprehended that part of your life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5900823", "date": "2026-07-20", "guest": "Harriet Clark", "title": "Harriet Clark's novel 'The Hill' draws on her 37 years visiting her mom in prison", "question_index": 13, "text": "My guest is Harriet Clark. Her new novel is called \"The Hill.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know, fundamentally ignore you, that was the feeling of my childhood. And there was something meaningful to me - painful but meaningful - about being able to stay inside that feeling in those ro"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5900823", "date": "2026-07-20", "guest": "Harriet Clark", "title": "Harriet Clark's novel 'The Hill' draws on her 37 years visiting her mom in prison", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Harriet Clark. Her new novel, \"The Hill,\" is based on her experiences visiting her mother in prison each weekend for about 37 years. Did you do research for the book? Did you go back and read news reports contemporaneous with the Brink's robbery that your mother participated in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know, fundamentally ignore you, that was the feeling of my childhood. And there was something meaningful to me - painful but meaningful - about being able to stay inside that feeling in those ro"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5900823", "date": "2026-07-20", "guest": "Harriet Clark", "title": "Harriet Clark's novel 'The Hill' draws on her 37 years visiting her mom in prison", "question_index": 15, "text": "As part of my research for this interview, I read an article in The New York Times from early in your mother's incarceration, and it was a profile of her. And it describes her as reluctant to have participated in the Brink's robbery because you were a baby, but she felt she needed to prove her commitment to the revolutionary cause. She was in the getaway car. She didn't see the shooting. The money was thrown into the car. And the Brink's truck was carrying, like, $1.6 million. I don't know how much was actually stolen. And she portrays herself as a very kind of insecure driver and a really bad...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. For many years, I had assumed that if I wrote a book that I would have to know a lot more than I did and - about lots of things, you know? So I read books about radicals in the '30s, '40s and '5"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5900823", "date": "2026-07-20", "guest": "Harriet Clark", "title": "Harriet Clark's novel 'The Hill' draws on her 37 years visiting her mom in prison", "question_index": 16, "text": "...Getaway driver and doesn't really know where she's going, and I think maybe gets in a little accident at the end.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5900823", "date": "2026-07-20", "guest": "Harriet Clark", "title": "Harriet Clark's novel 'The Hill' draws on her 37 years visiting her mom in prison", "question_index": 17, "text": "So did you read that? I don't know how much she told you. I don't know how much she wanted to talk about participating in the robbery and being the getaway driver. So, like, the more you learn, how did it affect your opinion of your mother?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5900823", "date": "2026-07-20", "guest": "Harriet Clark", "title": "Harriet Clark's novel 'The Hill' draws on her 37 years visiting her mom in prison", "question_index": 18, "text": "You know, in the novel, the grandmother really doesn't want the burden - 'cause it feels like a burden - of raising Suzanna after Suzanna's mother's in prison. Is that the vibe you got from your grandmother - that she wanted to be free but she was tied down taking care of you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And Suzanna keeps saying, yes, you know? And that's a lot what the book is about - you know, what feels so threatening about knowing things about our loved ones, like knowing their mistakes or their s"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5900823", "date": "2026-07-20", "guest": "Harriet Clark", "title": "Harriet Clark's novel 'The Hill' draws on her 37 years visiting her mom in prison", "question_index": 19, "text": "I recently interviewed Zayd Ayers, who's the son of Bill Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn, who were two leaders of the militant left-wing group the Weather Underground. And so Zayd wrote a memoir about growing up underground because his parents, early in his life, had, like, fake identities. They were basically in hiding underground. So one of the themes in his book is if his parents knew that they were going to continue as revolutionaries who were going to be doing revolutionary acts that could easily get them in prison, why did they decide to have a child, knowing that they could be locked away for years? And I'm wondering how much you thought about that too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, the older I get, the sadder it is to me how little I knew my grandmother, not only because she died almost 30 years ago, but also because I really knew her in the wake of the two greatest tr"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5900823", "date": "2026-07-20", "guest": "Harriet Clark", "title": "Harriet Clark's novel 'The Hill' draws on her 37 years visiting her mom in prison", "question_index": 20, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Harriet Clark. Her new novel is called \"The Hill.\" We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's interesting because from the outside, people have often been struck by my mother's abandonment of me. And I know that that is touched on - this idea of the mother abandoning her child i"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5900823", "date": "2026-07-20", "guest": "Harriet Clark", "title": "Harriet Clark's novel 'The Hill' draws on her 37 years visiting her mom in prison", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Harriet Clark. Her new novel, \"The Hill,\" draws on her own experiences. When she was 11 months old in 1981, her mother, Judy Clark, drove a getaway car in the armed robbery of a Brink's truck carrying over $1.5 million. Judy was part of a militant revolutionary group that was an offshoot of the militant revolutionary group the Weather Underground. The robbery was in collaboration with a radical group that was an offshoot of the Black Panthers. The goal was to raise money for the revolutionary causes they stood for. One guard and two police officers were killed in a shootout. For most of the 37 years Judy was in prison, Harriet spent every Saturday visiting her. Until you were 8, when your grandfather died, he drove you to the prison every weekend. And you'd spend the time with your mother. And there was a children's room where you could be with her. Was that considered, like, an important reform in the prison? I think not all prisons had that, and I think your mother's prison didn't have it forever either.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's interesting because from the outside, people have often been struck by my mother's abandonment of me. And I know that that is touched on - this idea of the mother abandoning her child i"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5900823", "date": "2026-07-20", "guest": "Harriet Clark", "title": "Harriet Clark's novel 'The Hill' draws on her 37 years visiting her mom in prison", "question_index": 22, "text": "After your grandfather died when you were 8, a nun from the prison took on the responsibility of picking you up and driving you to and from the prison every weekend. Was that a responsibility she took on herself? Was she assigned that? It seems so wonderful and unusual.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it is one of the greatest pieces of good fortune in my life that my mother's prison had that room, because I was able to want to see my mother because the environment in which I saw her could "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5900823", "date": "2026-07-20", "guest": "Harriet Clark", "title": "Harriet Clark's novel 'The Hill' draws on her 37 years visiting her mom in prison", "question_index": 23, "text": "Oh, I thought that really happened.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm glad you think it's wonderful and unusual because it's made up. It's part of the novel."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5900823", "date": "2026-07-20", "guest": "Harriet Clark", "title": "Harriet Clark's novel 'The Hill' draws on her 37 years visiting her mom in prison", "question_index": 24, "text": "I thought I'd read that happened.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5900823", "date": "2026-07-20", "guest": "Harriet Clark", "title": "Harriet Clark's novel 'The Hill' draws on her 37 years visiting her mom in prison", "question_index": 25, "text": "Did they stay revolutionaries?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. There was an amazing nun at my mom's prison, but - and she did occasionally drive me to the prison. And she did many heroic things. When my mother was transferred when I was 6 to Tucson, Arizona, "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5900823", "date": "2026-07-20", "guest": "Harriet Clark", "title": "Harriet Clark's novel 'The Hill' draws on her 37 years visiting her mom in prison", "question_index": 26, "text": "And when you talk about your family, you're talking in part about the collective...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "any member of my family an ideologue anymore. But I do consider them profoundly committed people."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5900823", "date": "2026-07-20", "guest": "Harriet Clark", "title": "Harriet Clark's novel 'The Hill' draws on her 37 years visiting her mom in prison", "question_index": 27, "text": "...That your mother was a part of. And the collective raised you for the first five years of your life. It's interesting you still think of them as your family.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5900823", "date": "2026-07-20", "guest": "Harriet Clark", "title": "Harriet Clark's novel 'The Hill' draws on her 37 years visiting her mom in prison", "question_index": 28, "text": "I want to hear more about the nun who worked at the prison and who helped you get to Arizona to visit your mother when she was transferred to a prison there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5900823", "date": "2026-07-20", "guest": "Harriet Clark", "title": "Harriet Clark's novel 'The Hill' draws on her 37 years visiting her mom in prison", "question_index": 29, "text": "You came to think of prison as collective punishment because the whole family is being punished.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that also was one of the great blessings of my life, was to be raised with Sister Elaine, which thousands of children whose mothers were in Bedford Hills Correctional Facility, this was one of th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5900823", "date": "2026-07-20", "guest": "Harriet Clark", "title": "Harriet Clark's novel 'The Hill' draws on her 37 years visiting her mom in prison", "question_index": 30, "text": "My guest is Harriet Clark. Her new novel is called \"The Hill.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It is collective punishment. I mean, when I say that prison is collective punishment, I mean - you know, and there's this very tricky balance in the book where, on the one hand, I'm trying to commun"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5900823", "date": "2026-07-20", "guest": "Harriet Clark", "title": "Harriet Clark's novel 'The Hill' draws on her 37 years visiting her mom in prison", "question_index": 31, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Harriet Clark. Her new novel, \"The Hill,\" is based on her experiences visiting her mother in prison on weekends for about 37 years. She was a getaway driver when members of radical offshoots of the Weather Underground and the Black Panthers robbed a Brink's truck in 1981. It ended in a shootout, leaving two police officers and a security guard dead. Your mother's sentence was commuted and she was released on parole in 2019. Was there a campaign for her release? Did you campaign for it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It is collective punishment. I mean, when I say that prison is collective punishment, I mean - you know, and there's this very tricky balance in the book where, on the one hand, I'm trying to commun"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5900823", "date": "2026-07-20", "guest": "Harriet Clark", "title": "Harriet Clark's novel 'The Hill' draws on her 37 years visiting her mom in prison", "question_index": 32, "text": "When your mother got out of prison, did she live with you at first?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "seem like they stand no chance, I kind of think, well, your mother got free, you know? So much is possible when people come together to try to make something happen."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5900823", "date": "2026-07-20", "guest": "Harriet Clark", "title": "Harriet Clark's novel 'The Hill' draws on her 37 years visiting her mom in prison", "question_index": 33, "text": "You went to college outside of New York, and grad school. Did you feel guilty for not being in New York where your mother was - not being able to visit her on weekends?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. She's never lived with me. And actually, you know, I think that many people - my mother included, I think - did expect that we would be making up for lost time, you know? But actually, because I w"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5900823", "date": "2026-07-20", "guest": "Harriet Clark", "title": "Harriet Clark's novel 'The Hill' draws on her 37 years visiting her mom in prison", "question_index": 34, "text": "Did you know your father?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I remember the last visit I had with my mother before I moved to California, and I do remember feeling very heavy leaving. You know, it wasn't just that every week of my growing up I visited my mother"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5900823", "date": "2026-07-20", "guest": "Harriet Clark", "title": "Harriet Clark's novel 'The Hill' draws on her 37 years visiting her mom in prison", "question_index": 35, "text": "Were you able to build a relationship with him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Not really when I was young. He was underground when I was very young, and then he was in prisons, where I very minimally visited him until I was 12. So I really only got to know him when my gran"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5900823", "date": "2026-07-20", "guest": "Harriet Clark", "title": "Harriet Clark's novel 'The Hill' draws on her 37 years visiting her mom in prison", "question_index": 36, "text": "So you spent 20 years - not - that's not all you did, but...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And I feel very grateful about that because throughout my whole childhood, you know, he was supposed to initially just be my sperm donor. He had never signed on to be my father. It was only once "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5900823", "date": "2026-07-20", "guest": "Harriet Clark", "title": "Harriet Clark's novel 'The Hill' draws on her 37 years visiting her mom in prison", "question_index": 37, "text": "...Over the course of 20 years, you were writing this book. You kept rewriting it. Why did it take 20 years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5900823", "date": "2026-07-20", "guest": "Harriet Clark", "title": "Harriet Clark's novel 'The Hill' draws on her 37 years visiting her mom in prison", "question_index": 38, "text": "Harriet Clark, thank you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I say in my acknowledgments that writing the story - the book - was really a cover story for wanting time to myself. And I think for many years, that was the case, until 2017, when Trump came into off"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5900823", "date": "2026-07-20", "guest": "Harriet Clark", "title": "Harriet Clark's novel 'The Hill' draws on her 37 years visiting her mom in prison", "question_index": 39, "text": "...So much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5900823", "date": "2026-07-20", "guest": "Harriet Clark", "title": "Harriet Clark's novel 'The Hill' draws on her 37 years visiting her mom in prison", "question_index": 40, "text": "Harriet Clark's new novel is called \"The Hill.\" After we take a short break, rock critic Ken Tucker will review two new albums that draw on rock's past for their sources of inspiration. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me. It really - it's a great honor."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. When Andre De Shields' name is mentioned, it's often preceded by the words Broadway legend or the great. He won a Tony for his performance in the musical \"Hadestown\" in 2019, and the show won seven other Tonys, including best musical. Stars of the original Broadway cast, including De Shields, reunited for a revival of the show last year in London. That production was filmed and will be released in theaters on Friday. Right now, De Shields is one of the stars of \"Cats: The Jellicle Ball,\" which won three Tonys last month. It uses the same songs as \"Cats,\" but with different beats and is set in the queer underground ballroom culture of the '80s. That show is closing August 8. De Shields is especially remarkable, considering he's 80 and has been HIV positive since 1991. He grew up in Baltimore, in what he describes as the innermost part of Baltimore's inner city, and figured getting an education would be key to getting out. He earned his BA in English literature at the University of Wisconsin in Madison and an MA in African American studies from NYU. He started his career in experimental theater in Chicago. When his theater group performed in New York, he decided to stay. He soon got cast as the wizard in the 1975 original Broadway cast of \"The Wiz,\" which was produced a few years before the movie. He was nominated for a Tony for his performance in the show \"Ain't Misbehavin',\" which was built around music associated with Fats Waller. And he won an Emmy when it was produced for a 1982 NBC broadcast. He was nominated for another Tony for his performance in \"The Full Monty.\" He's performed in a wide range of dramas, including \"King Lear,\" \"Waiting For Godot\" and \"Death Of A Salesman.\" Let's start with Andre De Shields singing the opening number of \"Hadestown,\" in which he sets up the story and introduces the characters. The show tells a version of the Greek myths about Hades, Hermes, Orpheus and Eurydice. De Shields plays Hermes, the god who escorts the souls of the dead to the underworld, which is ruled by Hades. Here's De Shields from the original Broadway cast recording.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 1, "text": "Andre De Shields, welcome to FRESH AIR. Congratulations on all the things that you're doing now. I just think it's great. Did you ever believe that despite having been diagnosed with HIV in 1991, and believing that you had it considerably before that but you just didn't have the diagnosis, that you'd not only live to see age 80, but that you'd be in a new film version of a musical you'd want a Tony for, and at the same time, you'd be on Broadway as one of the stars of \"Cats: The Jellicle Ball\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Vocalizing). Chugga, chugga, chugga, chugga. Chugga, chugga, chugga, chugga. Chugga, chugga, chugga, chugga. Chugga, chugga, chugga, chugga. (Singing) Once upon a time, there was a railroad line. Don"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 2, "text": "And my answer to that is no.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The answer to that question is yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 3, "text": "HIV, when you had it in '91, it was a death sentence. You had two partners who died of AIDS, and friends as well, cast members who you worked with. So you really thought you were going to be on Broadway at the age of 80?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I believed, from my very first conscious thought, that my destiny would rise up and meet me. So when my mother shared with me that her lifelong dream had been to be a chorus girl - and that was the te"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 4, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't think I was going to be on Broadway at the age of 80, but I did know that I would be alive."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 5, "text": "Wait, so you were symptomatic for 11 years before you were diagnosed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I did know that I would continue on my path. And I had already in 1980, before there was an acronym, HIV, that I had had an infection of my lymph nodes. And not any one of three doctors on two con"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 6, "text": "That's a long time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 7, "text": "Wow. You know, \"Hadestown\" is about the souls of the dead. So seeing \"Hadestown\" made me think about the stories that human beings have told themselves over the centuries about why we are living and why we die. And the Greek myths are, you know, early examples of that. When you did \"Hadestown,\" when you were performing in it and when you went back, which I imagine you did, to read the myths that \"Hadestown\" draws on, did it make you think about that, the stories we've told ourselves about what happens after we die, how they've changed over time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And when I finally got the clinical diagnosis, I had 16 T cells. So I was near death. But I knew I wasn't going to die."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 8, "text": "How have you changed how you can perform on stage at the age of 80? No one is as limber, but you still move with such grace.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did exactly that. And I also - there's an African proverb, which is based on a bird. And the bird is called a sankofa. It's a flightless bird, and it is known to walk deliberately forward. But every"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're absolutely correct about what we think about the human body and the human spirit. Let's talk about the physical part of that. Yes, Mr. Arthur has visited me. I've got arthritis. My knees are co"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Andre De Shields. He's currently on Broadway in \"Cats: The Jellicle Ball.\" He won a 2019 Tony for his performance in the musical \"Hadestown\" as Hermes. And now he's in the new film of last year's London revival that reunited the stars of the original Broadway show, including De Shields. That movie opens Friday. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Her name is Dr. Footlights. And when I stand on that stage, and when those lights come up, and when the audience greets me, the pain disappears."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Andre De Shields. He won a Tony for his performance in the musical \"Hadestown.\" He plays the role again in a new movie of the show, which opens Friday, and he's currently on Broadway in \"Cats: The Jellicle Ball.\" So I want to ask you about \"Cats: The Jellicle Ball.\" It's set in the queer ballroom culture, where there are drag competitions in different categories relating to, like, singing, dance, costumes. Were you a part of that at all, either as a participant or an observer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Her name is Dr. Footlights. And when I stand on that stage, and when those lights come up, and when the audience greets me, the pain disappears."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 12, "text": "And the Chitlin' Circuit was, like, a circuit of, like, Black theaters - started, like, in the Vaudeville era, I think.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was not a part of the ball culture, as we know it here in New York, and we give it a birth decade of the '80s. But I did know a phenomenon called the Jewel Box Revue, and it toured the Chitlin' Circ"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 13, "text": "What did it mean to you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. And in Baltimore, the theater was called The Royal. And of course, in the '60s, urban renewal razed it, and the cultural spine of the city died. However, I was able to see entertainment like "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 14, "text": "...Seeing people...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was in..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 15, "text": "...Who were drag performers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 16, "text": "Did seeing drag performers add to your desire and ability to dress in very, like, nonconforming ways with, like, bright colors and, like, short shorts? Walking the streets of Manhattan, you talked about how people would, like, kind of, like, walk in the opposite direction 'cause...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It meant that fantasy had to be in my toolbox. It meant that what we do in our actual lives is what I, as a performer, must do on the stage. I must fool people. I must pretend. The ancient Greek word "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 17, "text": "...You looked - you were so outstanding-looking that it was kind of almost scary to some people.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 18, "text": "Like, so eccentric-looking. Did that contribute to you feeling that you wanted to and were able to wear whatever you wanted to and call attention to yourself in a very colorful and fashionable way, original way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 19, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 20, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. But now, Terry, you and I have only spoken for a few minutes, and we don't really know one another. But I'll bet you already know that I like to wax poetic. And wearing bright colors and sayi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 21, "text": "What are some of the things you've seen change on Broadway over the years? 'Cause you started on Broadway in the '70s. And also, as a Black actor, there aren't necessarily a whole lot of opportunities now either for Black actors, but there's more than there were. Yet you managed to be in two of the shows with Black casts - \"Ain't Misbehavin'\" and \"The Wiz.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Now - but this is because each of us, if we want to do something as commonplace as be happy, and if we want to do something as exceptional as being called a legend, then one really must commit to bein"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 22, "text": "Your father, who wanted to be a singer, sang in church. How churchy was your family, and was that your first stage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you've explained it in a nutshell. In the early '70s, Broadway was an inhospitable terrain for Black actors and Black audiences. And with the advent of \"The Wiz,\" that all changed. Part of the c"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 23, "text": "But it wasn't real?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The family wasn't very churchy, but they were pious people. They read their Bibles on a daily basis. And everyone prayed for me, and I didn't have to wonder why. I knew that I was the blackest of the "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 24, "text": "Well, we need to take a break here, so let's continue this very soon. If you're just joining us, my guest is Andre De Shields, and he won a Tony for his performance in the musical \"Hadestown.\" He plays the role again in the new movie of the show, which opens Friday. He's currently on Broadway in \"Cats: The Jellicle Ball.\" We'll continue our interview after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, of course not. And I'm not making fun of it. I'm just saying I was being a good child. I was pleasing my mother. But I knew I wanted to sing the devil's music. I wanted to go rip-roaring through l"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 25, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Andre De Shields. He won a Tony for his performance in the musical \"Hadestown.\" He plays the role again in a new movie of the show, which opens Friday. He's currently on Broadway in \"CATS The Jellicle Ball,\" which closes August 8. He played the Wizard in the original Broadway cast of \"The Wiz.\" He was nominated for Tonys for his performances in the Fats Waller musical \"Ain't Misbehavin'\" and the musical adaptation of the film, \"The Full Monty.\" Your parents both wanted to be in show biz - your mother, a chorus girl...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, of course not. And I'm not making fun of it. I'm just saying I was being a good child. I was pleasing my mother. But I knew I wanted to sing the devil's music. I wanted to go rip-roaring through l"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 26, "text": "...Your father, a singer, and you felt that you kind of inherited their dreams that they couldn't fulfill, and you fulfilled them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 27, "text": "But what was their reaction when they learned that you were really serious about being a performer? Did they encourage you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 28, "text": "What do you think your - the drama teacher saw in you that made him or her realize that you belonged on stage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ultimately, I was encouraged. In the beginning, when people would ask me, Andre, what do you want to - what are you going to do when you grow up? And my response was, I'm going to be a star. And they "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 29, "text": "What was the chip that was on your shoulder?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "First of all, he saw a Black male student. Second of all, he saw a young man who carried himself as if he were a king, which I still do. My mission, my journey is to discover the throne to which I kno"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 30, "text": "And what dissolved that chip was embodying a character who couldn't get rid of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm a Black man, and I'm tired of being taken advantage of. You did this to me. I can't get anywhere, and it's your fault. That's the chip. I can get anywhere I want. And it's my doing."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 31, "text": "...Couldn't get rid of it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 32, "text": "And seeing how that hurt him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, that's - yes. That's..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 33, "text": "One of the people who inspired you to become a performer, made you think, maybe you could really do it, was John Bubbles, when you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. That's essential to \"Raisin In The Sun.\" Walter Lee Younger, who's supposed to be the man of the family, blames everything on Mr. Whitey (ph). And the mother says to him, oh, stop."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 34, "text": "...Saw him in the 1943 musical film \"Cabin In The Sky,\" which has such an...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 35, "text": "...Incredible cast. It's like, Ethel Waters, Lena Horne...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 36, "text": "...Louis Armstrong, the Duke Ellington Orchestra and John Bubbles. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 37, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Eddie \"Rochester\" Anderson, whom we all..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 38, "text": "From \"The Jack Benny Show.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Know..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 39, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...From \"The Jack Benny Show.\""}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 40, "text": "Yeah. So let me play a little bit of John Bubbles from that film, and then we'll talk about what this meant to you. And in this film, he's in a nightclub, and the Duke Ellington Orchestra is backing him up. He walks in, like, really dapper, like, elegant suit. He has a cane, kind of like Fred Astaire when he was dancing, and everybody's like, admiring him. And then he breaks out into song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 41, "text": "So listening back to that, Andre De Shields, what memories does it bring back, and how did it inspire you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Domino Johnson, singing) They wouldn't fly. I got my shirt from a silver lining. I got my cane from an old oak tree. And that is just the reason why the folks all nickname me. Just because my hair"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 42, "text": "Oh, thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Now, Terry Gross, this is why among radio journalists, you are the goddess..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 43, "text": "Really? This is what you sang?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Because that song, \"Shine\" - which is a race song - was my audition song when I came to New York. It's how I got \"The Wiz.\" It's how I got \"Ain't Misbehavin'.\""}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 44, "text": "Why did you choose it? And what do you think of the lyric?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It - yes. And only recently have I - I didn't stop using it, but I don't need it any longer because now people know who Andre De Shields is."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 45, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I chose it because of the lyrics. Now, you played from, like, the middle of the song."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 46, "text": "'Cause I wanted...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But the..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 47, "text": "...Some of the slower part and some of the faster part where the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But the..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 48, "text": "...Tempo picks up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 49, "text": "There's a song, and I'm trying to think of which one it is, where you hold a note excessively long.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But the song opens with a note that John Bubbles sings, and it's as if he's never going to stop hitting that note. And you are amazed by this man singing this long tenor note. And just at the moment w"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 50, "text": "Whoa. That's a long time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, have you seen \"Cats: The Jellicle Ball\"? When I make my entrance as Old Deuteronomy, I sustain a note - and I know this because people have timed it - for 44 seconds."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 51, "text": "He directed it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a long time. But I learned that from John Bubbles, from watching \"Cabin In The Sky\" in the darkened atmosphere of The Royal Theater, where the Chitlin' Circuit would visit. Every performance in"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 52, "text": "Yeah. Nice connection. I mean...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...The best. Vincente Minnelli, yes - Judy Garland's husband, the father of Liza Minnelli. Do you see the connection - the great vulnerability from Judy Garland, which she gave to Liza Minnelli, who's"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 53, "text": "It's an interesting connection. I've...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 54, "text": "...Never heard somebody say, circumcise my heart.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 55, "text": "I'm just thinking...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 56, "text": "...About that for a minute.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 57, "text": "I do.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But you know what I mean, don't you?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 58, "text": "Do you still sing that song? And would you maybe want to sing it for us now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Take away that which is unnecessary and leave you with the gold."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 59, "text": "Whenever you're ready.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. Yes. You're making a Black man blush right now. I know you can't see it."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 60, "text": "You have a powerful voice. And you sang the part that we didn't play at the beginning...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) What is there about me that - what is there about you, what? - makes me feel well-dressed? Whatever that is, that's what you is - the same old clothes, shoes and hat. The same old thing rear"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 61, "text": "...That you were talking...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. That's right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 62, "text": "...About. So I'm...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 63, "text": "...Really...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 64, "text": "...Glad you did that. My guest is Andre De Shields. He's currently on Broadway in \"Cats: The Jellicle Ball\" and in the film version of the musical \"Hadestown,\" which will be in movie theaters this Friday. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 65, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Andre De Shields. He won a Tony for his performance in the musical \"Hadestown.\" He plays the role again in a new movie of the show, which opens Friday, and he's currently on Broadway in \"Cats: The Jellicle Ball.\" So when you started in theater, it was experimental theater. The theater company performed in New York. You decided to stay. And then you got the role in \"The Wiz\" as The Wizard of Oz. That's incredible - that you got such an...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 66, "text": "...Important part so quickly. And the timing was perfect because it was, like, a Black cast, and there weren't many Black actors on stage. So, like, what an incredible door to open for you at exactly the right time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 67, "text": "And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 68, "text": "You literally begged for the chance to audition...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And there..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 69, "text": "...For \"The Wiz.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 70, "text": "And your costume that you wore on stage is in the Smithsonian Museum of African American History. Why don't you describe it? 'Cause obviously, it's worthy of the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 71, "text": "...Smithsonian. So describe it for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 72, "text": "Another fraud, another con man.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Now, remember, \"The Wiz\" opened on Broadway on January 5, 1975. It was the peak of the decade of permissiveness, particularly for men who thought of themselves as beautiful. So we were wearing tight b"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 73, "text": "So you were in \"The Wiz,\" which is pretty incredible. And then just like three years after being in \"The Wiz,\" you're cast in \"Ain't Misbehavin',\" a musical review built around songs identified with Fats Waller. So let's hear a little bit of you singing from that. And most of the songs are sung by, you know, one or two other characters. It's a five-person cast, and some songs have all five of you. So I'm going to play part of the title song, \"Ain't Misbehavin'.\" And this is a part where you solo. We'll pick it up right before that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes. There's a great impact on not only Dorothy and her three friends, but the entire audience."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 74, "text": "Did you already love Fats Waller's music when you were cast on the show?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, shucks, Daddy. I love it when you move."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 75, "text": "The period that he performed in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I wasn't a lover of Fats Waller's music, but I love the period."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 76, "text": "Thirtys, '40s?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, the Harlem Renaissance."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 77, "text": "The literature, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Harlem Renaissance. Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 78, "text": "Well, I'm going to take a pause and reintroduce you here because I need to take a break. So let me do that. If you're just joining us, my guest is Andre De Shields. He's currently on Broadway in \"Cats: The Jellicle Ball.\" He won a 2019 Tony for his performance in the musical \"Hadestown\" as Hermes. He's in the new film of last year's London revival that reunited stars from the original Broadway show. It opens on Friday. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And curiously, it is still that part of American history that is identified with Black excellence. When, indeed - when February comes around, the shortest and coldest month of the year, and we ce"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 79, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Andre De Shields. He won a Tony for his performance in the musical \"Hadestown.\" He plays the role again in a new movie of the show, which opens Friday. And he's currently on Broadway in \"Cats: The Jellicle Ball.\" I want to change the subject and go back to the '90s, when you were diagnosed with HIV in '91...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And curiously, it is still that part of American history that is identified with Black excellence. When, indeed - when February comes around, the shortest and coldest month of the year, and we ce"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 80, "text": "...And your partner of 17 years died of AIDS. And then, three years after that, a partner of two years died of AIDS. Did you take care of them when they were really sick?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 81, "text": "What was it like for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. I became the nurse."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 82, "text": "Did that happen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'll share this with you. My first partner had been told by his doctor that if you ever run a fever of 104 or higher, you must immediately check yourself into the ER, the emergency room. Not too long "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 83, "text": "Was it that night?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 84, "text": "What was your reaction when he said that? Was it to, like, try to convince him, no, go to the ER? I'll be with you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. It was sometime later. And it was in the hospital."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 85, "text": "How did it change you to be surrounded by the death of people who you loved, the death of people who were very close friends and who were colleagues onstage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no, no, no. He was compos mentis. I asked him a question, he responded, and I acted accordingly until it was impossible to do so when I had to make decisions for him."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 86, "text": "Which is remarkable.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I became a missionary, and I became an advocate. And now AIDS, or at least HIV, is a condition that one can live with. I have for 45 years."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 87, "text": "So we're recording this on Thursday, July 16. And \"Cats: The Jellicle Ball,\" and you're one of the stars, that closes on August 8. So there are not many performances left. What do you do during intermissions when you're doing a Broadway show?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But what had to happen in this process, which is why I say I became a missionary, is that not everyone is infected with HIV, but everyone is affected by HIV. And that's because we have criminalized it"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 88, "text": "Yes", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "First things first, go to the bathroom."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 89, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "First things first, go to the bathroom."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 90, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I was touring with \"The Me Nobody Knows,\" one of the performances was done at the civic stage of the Chicago opera house. And Katharine Hepburn was there doing \"Coco.\" And she allowed us to meet "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 91, "text": "You have a performance tonight, so I'm going to let you go in a couple of minutes. How are you feeling about these final performances? Are you savoring, like, every minute?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And (impersonating Katharine Hepburn) even if you don't have to go, go. So during intermission, go to the bathroom, whether you have the urge or not."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 92, "text": "Andre De Shields, it's been wonderful talking with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it didn't take the announcement of its closing to savor every minute. That happens eight times a week because the people who are coming to see \"Cats: The Jellicle Ball\" are coming to celebrate n"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 93, "text": "Well, I wish you all the best. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's the highlight of my day. I'm going to share it with everyone at the theater. They love for me to bring these kinds of rare opportunities into their lives."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 94, "text": "Andre De Shields plays Hermes in a new film version of the stage musical \"Hadestown.\" It's the same role he won a Tony for seven years ago in the original Broadway production. The film opens in theaters this Friday. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be New Yorker staff writer Jia Tolentino. She coined the term Instagram face. Now she's back with a warning. Plastic surgery has become so pervasive and undetectable, it's quietly changing what we think a real human face looks like. Her article, \"Our Plastic-Surgery Nightmare,\" delves into what happens when we can no longer trust our own eyes. I hope you'll join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at @nprfreshair.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was my pleasure. Thank you."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5901990", "date": "2026-07-21", "guest": "Andre De Shields", "title": "Broadway legend Andr\u00e9 De Shields helps bring 'Hadestown' to the big screen", "question_index": 95, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Sam Briger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez-Wisler. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was my pleasure. Thank you."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5910517", "date": "2026-07-28", "guest": "Mike Mcintire", "title": "'Ricochet' explores how the right to bear arms expands -- while gun laws contract", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. How did we get to the point where there is a mass shooting nearly every day, and yet it keeps getting easier to purchase guns, including assault rifles? That's what my guest, Mike McIntire, has been trying to track. He's an investigative reporter for The New York Times and has covered gun violence during much of his four-decade career in journalism. His new book, \"Ricochet: Guns, Greed, And The American Way Of Violence,\" includes new insights into the National Rifle Association and the gun rights movement. They're based in part on NRA documents he got access to, as well as the papers of the late John Dingell Jr., a longtime congressman who, while in office, simultaneously served on the board of the NRA. Dingell was a leader in popularizing the interpretation of the Second Amendment as applying to individual rights as opposed to the collective rights of a well-regulated militia. McIntire's book also includes some fascinating early history, including how controversial the Second Amendment was at the time it was written. Among the other subjects McIntire has been covering for The Times is a recent story about ICE's legal cases against people charged with assaulting ICE agents and how those cases are crumbling in the courts. McIntire has been part of teams that have won three Pulitzer Prizes. Mike McIntire, welcome to FRESH AIR. I really learned a lot from your book, so I'm glad you wrote it. Let's start with the AR-15 case before the Supreme Court 'cause they, at the end of this previous term, agreed to hear it, so we'll probably get a verdict at the end of next term, and this case is going to determine the standard for how the legality of gun laws are determined. And the question is the use of the word common use. Can you explain what the wording is about?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5910517", "date": "2026-07-28", "guest": "Mike Mcintire", "title": "'Ricochet' explores how the right to bear arms expands -- while gun laws contract", "question_index": 1, "text": "But how is a jury supposed to decide what common use means? And why should that be a determining factor? I mean, it could be a marketing thing - like, the guns with the best marketing are the guns that get to be most legal.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks, Terry, for having me. Yeah, this particular case that the Supreme Court's agreed to take up promises to be pretty controversial and, I think, impactful. As you pointed out, you know, when they"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5910517", "date": "2026-07-28", "guest": "Mike Mcintire", "title": "'Ricochet' explores how the right to bear arms expands -- while gun laws contract", "question_index": 2, "text": "Is that the way it's going to work?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks, Terry, for having me. Yeah, this particular case that the Supreme Court's agreed to take up promises to be pretty controversial and, I think, impactful. As you pointed out, you know, when they"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5910517", "date": "2026-07-28", "guest": "Mike Mcintire", "title": "'Ricochet' explores how the right to bear arms expands -- while gun laws contract", "question_index": 3, "text": "Another thing is, like, there's - what? - at least three justices who consider themselves originalists, which means reading the Constitution as literally and as close to the Founders' intent as possible. And the Founders seemed to have no intent to determine the legality of guns based on common use. Where does that come from?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is a question that the federal appeals court in Illinois actually raised a few years ago when this very issue came up, and the appellate justices took a very dim view - or at least a couple of th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5910517", "date": "2026-07-28", "guest": "Mike Mcintire", "title": "'Ricochet' explores how the right to bear arms expands -- while gun laws contract", "question_index": 4, "text": "Say the justices uphold the decision that if a gun is in common use, it's OK - it's legal to sell it, it's legal to buy. How would that change the future of guns?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "that explained it. And what they said was - is that they looked back and thought about, would this be the kind of gun that would have been commonly used by a citizen militia? Would it have been useful"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5910517", "date": "2026-07-28", "guest": "Mike Mcintire", "title": "'Ricochet' explores how the right to bear arms expands -- while gun laws contract", "question_index": 5, "text": "So much of, like, gun rights and gun-safety laws depend on interpretations of the Second Amendment. Let's look at the Second Amendment 'cause you have stories of the Second Amendment that I was not familiar with, and I assume there will be other people who aren't either. So when the Bill of Rights was written, the Second Amendment was controversial among the people writing the Bill of Rights. What made it controversial?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's sort of a case-by-case basis in terms of the type of firearms we're talking about. So the Heller decision was looking specifically at handguns that were being kept at home for self-defense "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5910517", "date": "2026-07-28", "guest": "Mike Mcintire", "title": "'Ricochet' explores how the right to bear arms expands -- while gun laws contract", "question_index": 6, "text": "'Cause a militia could stand up to the Army that was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, at the time that the Founders were drafting first the Constitution and then the Bill of Rights, there was a lot of concern about the role of the citizens' militia going forward because a big fea"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5910517", "date": "2026-07-28", "guest": "Mike Mcintire", "title": "'Ricochet' explores how the right to bear arms expands -- while gun laws contract", "question_index": 7, "text": "...Imposing...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. The militia..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5910517", "date": "2026-07-28", "guest": "Mike Mcintire", "title": "'Ricochet' explores how the right to bear arms expands -- while gun laws contract", "question_index": 8, "text": "...On the states. Or?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Could stand up to the Army."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5910517", "date": "2026-07-28", "guest": "Mike Mcintire", "title": "'Ricochet' explores how the right to bear arms expands -- while gun laws contract", "question_index": 9, "text": "So what does the actual Constitution, as opposed to the Bill of Rights, have to say about gun ownership and gun rights?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it could also serve in the role of defending the state against an external threat. So it was sort of intended to be both kind of a bulwark against potential federal tyranny and also just a simple "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5910517", "date": "2026-07-28", "guest": "Mike Mcintire", "title": "'Ricochet' explores how the right to bear arms expands -- while gun laws contract", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Mike McIntire. He's an investigative reporter for The New York Times, a Pulitzer Prize winner. His new book is called \"Ricochet: Guns, Greed, And The American Way Of Violence.\" We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it talks mainly about the militia. It doesn't really go any further than that. And so you only really begin to see the bearing of arms as a right articulated in the Bill of Rights, not in the "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5910517", "date": "2026-07-28", "guest": "Mike Mcintire", "title": "'Ricochet' explores how the right to bear arms expands -- while gun laws contract", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Mike McIntire, an investigative reporter for The New York Times and author of the new book \"Ricochet: Guns, Greed, And The American Way Of Violence.\" So a really important chapter in our understanding of how the interpretation of the Second Amendment has changed over time is the story of John Dingell junior, a Democratic congressman from Michigan who was a leader of the effort to broaden the interpretation of the Second Amendment and make sure that the popular interpretation and a lot of the judicial interpretations would be based on a much broader reading of the Second Amendment that included an individual's right to own a gun, not just a member of a well-trained militia. And during his time as a congressman, he was also on the board of the NRA.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it talks mainly about the militia. It doesn't really go any further than that. And so you only really begin to see the bearing of arms as a right articulated in the Bill of Rights, not in the "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5910517", "date": "2026-07-28", "guest": "Mike Mcintire", "title": "'Ricochet' explores how the right to bear arms expands -- while gun laws contract", "question_index": 12, "text": "How did he become a member of the board of the NRA? That seems like a huge conflict of interest.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Congressman Dingell, who succeeded his father in that seat in Michigan, was raised in a family that was comfortable with guns, and he was a young member of the NRA as a kid. And he always had a ver"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5910517", "date": "2026-07-28", "guest": "Mike Mcintire", "title": "'Ricochet' explores how the right to bear arms expands -- while gun laws contract", "question_index": 13, "text": "Yeah. And while we're on the subject, I mean, he voted for the Assault Weapons Ban.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So one of the surprising things I learned in my reporting on this over the years is that members of Congress - they are allowed to serve on the boards of nonprofit groups as long as they're not paid. "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5910517", "date": "2026-07-28", "guest": "Mike Mcintire", "title": "'Ricochet' explores how the right to bear arms expands -- while gun laws contract", "question_index": 14, "text": "He got death threats, among other things.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He did, and it was very painful for him to do so. It was a - you know, the proponents of that ban cleverly kind of wrapped it in a much larger crime bill that provided tens of millions of dollars for "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5910517", "date": "2026-07-28", "guest": "Mike Mcintire", "title": "'Ricochet' explores how the right to bear arms expands -- while gun laws contract", "question_index": 15, "text": "So he thought that in order to broaden the gun laws and redefine the meaning of the Second Amendment, you need to change popular opinion and influence the courts.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He got death threats. He immediately became a villain amongst some of the very same people who had viewed him as a hero for so long. And he did consider the idea of trying to join an effort to repeal "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5910517", "date": "2026-07-28", "guest": "Mike Mcintire", "title": "'Ricochet' explores how the right to bear arms expands -- while gun laws contract", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, we have to take another break here, so I'm going to reintroduce you. My guest is Mike McIntire, an investigative reporter for The New York Times. His new book is called \"Ricochet: Guns, Greed, And The American Way Of Violence.\" We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The NRA in the 1970s still kind of reflected the old guard of the organization's view that it was focused mostly on hunting, sports shooting, conservation for much of its existence, and he was trying "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5910517", "date": "2026-07-28", "guest": "Mike Mcintire", "title": "'Ricochet' explores how the right to bear arms expands -- while gun laws contract", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with New York Times investigative reporter Mike McIntire. He's the author of the new book \"Ricochet: Guns, Greed, And The American Way Of Violence.\" He's been part of three teams that won Pulitzer Prizes for their reporting. When we left off, we were talking about the late Michigan Congressman John Dingell Jr., his activist role in helping the NRA and his time as a board member while he was serving in Congress. So it was time for a new executive director of the NRA, and Dingell supported Harlon Carter. This is a really interesting story because Harlon Carter kind of offered himself as a model gun user, but there was a secret that he had.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The NRA in the 1970s still kind of reflected the old guard of the organization's view that it was focused mostly on hunting, sports shooting, conservation for much of its existence, and he was trying "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5910517", "date": "2026-07-28", "guest": "Mike Mcintire", "title": "'Ricochet' explores how the right to bear arms expands -- while gun laws contract", "question_index": 18, "text": "So I think it's pretty remarkable that the head of the NRA had shot somebody to death. And whether it was in self-defense or not, that's not the person you want to lead the NRA.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's a fascinating character in this whole story of the evolution of the NRA. He had previously been a head of Border Patrol in the United States. His father had been a border agent. And in the 1950s,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5910517", "date": "2026-07-28", "guest": "Mike Mcintire", "title": "'Ricochet' explores how the right to bear arms expands -- while gun laws contract", "question_index": 19, "text": "You got access to NRA papers. Tell us something that you learned that really surprised you and educated you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you would think that it would be something that members of Congress, especially when they were hearing testimony from Harlon Carter, which they did quite frequently in the 1970s about gun laws, "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5910517", "date": "2026-07-28", "guest": "Mike Mcintire", "title": "'Ricochet' explores how the right to bear arms expands -- while gun laws contract", "question_index": 20, "text": "In keeping with the idea of influencing young people, you know, children and teenagers to have an interest in supporting gun rights and in purchasing guns, the gun industry has basically bought product placement in a lot of video games. So tell us how that works and what impact you think it's had.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One thing that stood out to me in these documents was the effort by the NRA to really focus on cultivating children as the next generation of gun owners. And there was some interesting papers from the"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5910517", "date": "2026-07-28", "guest": "Mike Mcintire", "title": "'Ricochet' explores how the right to bear arms expands -- while gun laws contract", "question_index": 21, "text": "My guest is Mike McIntire, an investigative reporter for The New York Times and author of the new book \"Ricochet: Guns, Greed, And The American Way Of Violence.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's a very controversial area, because there are people who are very, you know, worried about the impact of violent video games and movies in general on especially impressionable or troubled yo"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5910517", "date": "2026-07-28", "guest": "Mike Mcintire", "title": "'Ricochet' explores how the right to bear arms expands -- while gun laws contract", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Mike McIntire that we recorded yesterday. He's an investigative reporter for The New York Times. His new book is called \"Ricochet: Guns, Greed, And The American Way Of Violence.\" Another way that the gun industry and, I think, the NRA are marketing guns is associating gun ownership and gun use with masculinity. You write that guns are being marketed like an erectile dysfunction drug, which I thought was really funny.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's a very controversial area, because there are people who are very, you know, worried about the impact of violent video games and movies in general on especially impressionable or troubled yo"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5910517", "date": "2026-07-28", "guest": "Mike Mcintire", "title": "'Ricochet' explores how the right to bear arms expands -- while gun laws contract", "question_index": 23, "text": "So I want to quote a couple of programs that you refer to. There's Rolling Thunder. And in its promotional materials, it describes how you can race through obstacles, take sharp corners and shoot on the move, navigate rugged desert terrain in a UTV while engaging targets in real time. And at something called the Bullets and Burgers program, you get access to eight machine guns of your choice, a flamethrower, a gigantic 50-caliber tripod-mounted sniper rifle, quote, \"used in several Hollywood\" hits, including \"Jumanji\" and \"Rambo 2.\" And I was thinking - this is not only about, like, the thrill of using the weapons. It's about playing a Hollywood star. It's about being Rambo", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So there's - there is a whole culture of, you know, fun and guns that has, I think, you know - it to some extent has always kind of been there, going back to when men especially liked to, you know, jo"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5910517", "date": "2026-07-28", "guest": "Mike Mcintire", "title": "'Ricochet' explores how the right to bear arms expands -- while gun laws contract", "question_index": 24, "text": ". So that shows another desire to, like, act out your Hollywood fantasies.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So there's - there is a whole culture of, you know, fun and guns that has, I think, you know - it to some extent has always kind of been there, going back to when men especially liked to, you know, jo"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5910517", "date": "2026-07-28", "guest": "Mike Mcintire", "title": "'Ricochet' explores how the right to bear arms expands -- while gun laws contract", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well, we need to take another break here, so let me reintroduce you. My guest is Mike McIntire, an investigative reporter for The New York Times and author of the new book \"Ricochet: Guns, Greed, And The American Way Of Violence.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. They've - the gun industry's done a very good job of kind of selling the idea of self-defense in this kind of sugary wrapper of fun and excitement. So, you know, at its core, they still rely a l"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5910517", "date": "2026-07-28", "guest": "Mike Mcintire", "title": "'Ricochet' explores how the right to bear arms expands -- while gun laws contract", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Mike McIntire that we recorded yesterday. He's an investigative reporter for The New York Times. His new book is called \"Ricochet: Guns, Greed, And The American Way Of Violence.\" I want to talk about your family history with guns, which has helped inform you as a reporter. You say you grew up in a trailer park in a sketchy neighborhood. What was the gun culture that surrounded you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. They've - the gun industry's done a very good job of kind of selling the idea of self-defense in this kind of sugary wrapper of fun and excitement. So, you know, at its core, they still rely a l"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5910517", "date": "2026-07-28", "guest": "Mike Mcintire", "title": "'Ricochet' explores how the right to bear arms expands -- while gun laws contract", "question_index": 27, "text": "So you played with guns as a kid. And then you learned how to use a real gun. When you learned how to use a real gun, did guns seem any different to you? Did a real gun come with a sense of responsibility that you didn't have before you were taught to use a gun and you just, like, took your father's gun and shot it out the window?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I did, when I was very young, live in a trailer park that was literally backed up against a junkyard. It was near a Navy base. My father was in the Coast Guard, my mother was a bank teller, didn't "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5910517", "date": "2026-07-28", "guest": "Mike Mcintire", "title": "'Ricochet' explores how the right to bear arms expands -- while gun laws contract", "question_index": 28, "text": "And then there was the time - you were, I think, a kid at the time. Your mother forgot her keys to the front door. So she tried to get in through the back door, which the family, like, never really used. Your father thought it was an intruder and got his gun. So describe what happened afterwards.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I was, as an adult - and I now have about - I have four guns now as an adult. And I taught my own kids how to shoot. I think when you, you know, become a grown-up, especially a parent, you do ha"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5910517", "date": "2026-07-28", "guest": "Mike Mcintire", "title": "'Ricochet' explores how the right to bear arms expands -- while gun laws contract", "question_index": 29, "text": "I have one more question for you. You have had to read so many documents during just even the recent part of your investigative reporting career. Do you skim them? Like, how do you read, like, tens of thousands of documents?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was very little when this happened, and I still remember it because it was - it made such an impression. Yeah. I was - it was late at night, or at least I thought it was. And my mother had forgotten"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5910517", "date": "2026-07-28", "guest": "Mike Mcintire", "title": "'Ricochet' explores how the right to bear arms expands -- while gun laws contract", "question_index": 30, "text": "You love documents?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You have to love documents. The..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5910517", "date": "2026-07-28", "guest": "Mike Mcintire", "title": "'Ricochet' explores how the right to bear arms expands -- while gun laws contract", "question_index": 31, "text": "Mike McIntire, thank you so much for being with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I love documents. You know, it's - it - I teach a class in investigative reporting at New York University. And I tell my students that, you know, a lot of this is tedious work. You have to get used to"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5910517", "date": "2026-07-28", "guest": "Mike Mcintire", "title": "'Ricochet' explores how the right to bear arms expands -- while gun laws contract", "question_index": 32, "text": "Mike McIntire is an investigative reporter for The New York Times and author of the new book \"Ricochet: Guns, Greed, And The American Way Of Violence.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. It's been a pleasure."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5910517", "date": "2026-07-28", "guest": "Mike Mcintire", "title": "'Ricochet' explores how the right to bear arms expands -- while gun laws contract", "question_index": 33, "text": "Fresh Air's executive producer is Sam Briger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez-Wisler. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. It's been a pleasure."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. President Donald Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion last year, which was the first year of his second term. How did he manage to do that? That's what my guest, New York Times reporter Eric Lipton, has been investigating. He's uncovered business deals made by Trump and/or his sons, Don Jr. and Eric, that exploit the power of the presidency for self-enrichment, present conflicts of interest and violate norms. Lipton also uncovered conflicts of interest related to Trump's commerce secretary, Howard Lutnick, as well as Lutnick's two sons. This year, Lipton won a Pulitzer Prize as part of a team of Times reporters who investigated how the president and his family have profited from White House deal-making. This was Lipton's fourth Pulitzer. Last month, Lipton and four other Times reporters got something else as a result of their reporting - subpoenas from the Justice Department. The DOJ wanted to know the reporter's sources for a story about the luxurious plane donated as a gift to Trump from Qatar. At Trump's insistence that it serve as Air Force One, it had to be retrofitted with security measures it wasn't designed to accommodate, and it had to be finished within a year to meet Trump's deadline of the July Fourth Sesquicentennial celebration. Later in July, Trump made his first international flight in it for a NATO summit in Turkey, but he used an older Air Force One on the way back. The Times reporters uncovered that this was because after a ceasefire with Iran fell apart and the war resumed, there was a credible threat against Trump, and the retrofitted plane lacked sufficient security measures, despite Trump's earlier insistence that it was secure. Other recent stories Lipton has written about pertain to the industries the Trump administration regulates or makes decisions about and how he or his sons also made business deals in those sectors, including cryptocurrency, mining rare earth metals and nuclear power. We recorded our interview yesterday. Eric Lipton, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Congratulations on your fourth Pulitzer.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 1, "text": "So before we get to the subpoena, can you briefly add more to the Air Force One story that got you - I was going to say won you", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 2, "text": "- the subpoena?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 3, "text": "And even little things, like, a lot of the seats face sideways instead of facing forward, why is that basically prohibited on Air Force One?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, we had been tracking Trump's interest in having a new Air Force One since early 2025. After he returned to the White House, he was immediately obsessed with having a new plane. He felt l"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 4, "text": "I have to say, it's not just Trump who flies on this plane. I mean, there's his - sometimes his Cabinet members, other people from his team, journalists.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the FAA, when it certifies planes, it assumes that the plane is prepared for an emergency landing that's going to have a pretty intense, you know, g-force on your body. And so it tests the chair"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 5, "text": "So how much have taxpayers already spent retrofitting this plane?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's true. I mean, it carries, you know, Cabinet members. It carries other world leaders, members of Congress. You know, there are dozens of people on that flight when he goes, you know, more than 100"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 6, "text": "One more thing about the security measures. Because that plane wasn't built for the kind of security that Air Force One needs, it's hard to retrofit it for some of the security needs because it's just not designed for it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it's sort of crazy, but they won't tell us. But it's clearly - it's close to $1 billion, it appears. They had said publicly that it was something around $400 million even after the plane was d"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 7, "text": "So let's talk about the subpoena. So you were served directly. Right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. I mean, the Air Force One is actually designed to be able to keep flying in the event of a nuclear war - I mean, a terrible potential scenario. So they actually put, like, special shield"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 8, "text": "So it's been reported - and I know you can't really talk about this, but it's been reported that your phone records were subpoenaed, too. That's been quashed. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I can't talk about it too much, under instructions of lawyers. But my family and I were coming back from dinner on a Friday night, and as we arrived home, the FBI agents were sitting parked near"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 9, "text": "...That's not happening. But, you know, I'm thinking, like, if your phone records were actually subpoenaed, if the subpoena wasn't quashed, they'd have access not only to all your personal calls but perhaps to a lot of other sources having nothing to do with the story that they're actually investigating, but giving them leads if they want to crack down on other sources that you've spoken to over the years. So can you say anything about The New York Times' approach to fighting the subpoenas and upholding the right of journalists to not name their sources?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That's right. They..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 10, "text": "Now, there were reporters from The Washington Post and Wall Street Journal who were also - not related to this story, but who have also been subpoenaed by the Justice Department. There's a freelance writer who wrote for the Times who also got a subpoena. So it seems to be a pattern of subpoenaing journalists. And I'm thinking, OK. The Washington Post, Wall Street Journal, New York Times - they are all top news organizations. They have top legal departments. How many publications can afford to support their journalists? I mean, financially support all the legal fees and the time and the energy to back up their reporters after they're subpoenaed for their sources.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I - you know, The New York Times filed a motion in court to quash the subpoenas. It was very beautifully crafted. It was all about the freedom of the press and the important role that we play "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 11, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here. Let me reintroduce you. My guest is four-time Pulitzer Prize-winning reporter Eric Lipton of The New York Times. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Clearly, this - you know, this was to intimidate us. But our response after we received the subpoenas was just to recommit to investigating more - spending more time on the story. We immediately initi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with New York Times reporter Eric Lipton. He's been investigating how President Trump and his family have profited from self-enriching White House deal-making, the conflicts of interest these business deals present and the ethical questions they raise. So the Air Force One story that we've been talking about - it's part of your beat, which is profiteering from the presidency and the interconnection between policies and alliances he's making and the personal financial deals he and/or his sons are making. So let's talk about one of the deals that you recently wrote about pertaining to the tungsten mining industry. And before we get into the details, why is tungsten so important now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Clearly, this - you know, this was to intimidate us. But our response after we received the subpoenas was just to recommit to investigating more - spending more time on the story. We immediately initi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 13, "text": "So the country where Trump has cut a big deal in terms of mining for tungsten is in Kazakhstan. Why Kazakhstan?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the United States needs certain metals to manufacture all kinds of products. But tungsten is particularly important because it is an incredibly hard and heat-resistant metal that is vital for missi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 14, "text": "So who is this? What is this small company? And do they have experience in tungsten mining?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Kazakhstan is situated in-between Russia and China, happens to have a really large supply of it sitting in the ground. It's one of the largest untapped supplies of tungsten in the world sitting there,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 15, "text": "So why was this company chosen? Doesn't have a lot of experience. Doesn't have the capital. It's a small company, relatively speaking. How did they get chosen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, the small company currently goes by the name of Kaz Resources. The chief executive there and founder does have some experience in the mining sector. But they are not a - kind of, like, a Freep"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 16, "text": "What'd you learn about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's true that the company had started working with the Biden administration to try to see whether or not there were metals in Kazakhstan that it could tap into. And so it did have a relationship with"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 17, "text": "Trump's sons Don Jr. and Eric started making related investments before the deal was made public. So no one else knew about the deal. Would you consider that a form of insider trading?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, the more we looked into it, what we learned is that not only was the company working with the Trump administration but that separately, through investment partners, that it was working with Er"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 18, "text": "Now, in reading this story, there are some really complicated - at least to me, they seem really complicated - business deals, where one company buys another company and changes the name of the company. And I'm wondering if that is a way of making things more opaque and kind of obscuring who the people behind those investments are and who the people who are profiting are - for example, obscuring the relationship of Trump's sons to these companies and to these deals. Is that an accurate way of reading it as a possibility?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, that gets a little bit farther than - you know, than the evidence that I have. What I know is that they were teamed up with this company called Dominari Securities, which is based in Trump Tow"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 19, "text": "So now the Trump sons are invested in a company that is going or has already become public - publicly traded on the stock market?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the net result of all of these financial transactions - the permutations that were, you know, next to impossible to track - was that it did obscure who the investors were. And it takes a lot o"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 20, "text": "OK. So do the Trump sons have an opportunity to profit from the fact that it's public - that it's publicly traded?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is publicly traded. That was part of it. The maneuver was to buy this failing Hong Kong-based road builder to merge with the company that's going to mine the tungsten in Kazakhstan. So now it's a p"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 21, "text": "Well, it's time for another break here, so let me reintroduce you. My guest is four-time Pulitzer Prize-winning New York Times reporter Eric Lipton. We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The stock has actually declined since we wrote the story. I think there's a fair amount of skepticism about this deal and an open question as to whether or not they're still going to get the federal f"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with New York Times reporter Eric Lipton. He's been investigating how President Trump and his family have profited from self-enriching White House deal-making, the conflicts of interest these business deals present and the ethical questions they raise. This year, Lipton won his fourth Pulitzer Prize. When we left off, we were talking about a Trump administration tungsten-mining deal in Kazakhstan. Within weeks of the deal, Trump's sons Don Jr. and Eric had investments related to that mining deal. So the commerce secretary, Howard Lutnick, who's heavily involved in these tungsten deals - his sons are profiting too. Can you tell us more about how they're profiting or how they stand to potentially profit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The stock has actually declined since we wrote the story. I think there's a fair amount of skepticism about this deal and an open question as to whether or not they're still going to get the federal f"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 23, "text": "Would it be fair to say maybe that's a reason why Howard Lutnick shouldn't be commerce secretary? If he is intertwined with businesses or if his sons are intertwined with businesses he's supposed to be helping regulate, maybe he's not the right guy for the job.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So Lutnick - before he became the commerce secretary, he was running a company called Cantor Fitzgerald, which has a bunch of arms. But one of the things that they do is they help startups raise"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 24, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is four-time Pulitzer Prize-winning New York Times reporter Eric Lipton. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, he has complied with the federal law, which requires him to divest of his holdings in Cantor Fitzgerald, and he has turned over his holdings to his sons and other family members. And so he doe"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 25, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with New York Times reporter Eric Lipton. He's been investigating how President Trump and his family have profited from self-enriching White House deal-making, the conflicts of interest these deals present and the ethical questions they raise. This year, he won his fourth Pulitzer Prize. So let's talk about another sector that the Trump family and the Lutnick family are profiting from, and this is nuclear technology. So one of the big recent events in the nuclear story is that Trump had seemingly made a deal with Saudi Arabia to sell Saudi Arabia nuclear technology for a nuclear reactor. That deal apparently fell apart. Can you just say a little about the deal and how it fell apart before we get into the conflicts of interest?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, he has complied with the federal law, which requires him to divest of his holdings in Cantor Fitzgerald, and he has turned over his holdings to his sons and other family members. And so he doe"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 26, "text": "But that deal fell apart.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So there was an agreement, which had been years in the making, to allow Saudi Arabia to have access to civilian nuclear technology from the United States to allow them to build nuclear power pla"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 27, "text": "So tell us a little about the plans that Trump's sons have in the nuclear industry. And whether it's directly related to the Saudi deal or not, Trump is trying to emphasize nuclear power, and that means that nuclear technology will be in more demand.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That deal - it's unclear whether or not it's going to move ahead because shortly after he announced that, there was a fair amount of criticism. And then the president said publicly for the first time "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 28, "text": "Is there any oversight about this? Is there any regulatory agency or anything that has to approve these deals?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it's sort of similar to what we've seen with cryptocurrency and with mining and with the predictions markets. Again, the Trump sons and President Trump himself are moving to invest in the nucl"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 29, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The business deals are largely being approved by the Export-Import Bank, and Howard Lutnick is on the board of the Export-Import Bank."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 30, "text": "What's an alternate way of looking at it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so are other Cabinet members. And so just really important to reiterate that both the Lutnick family, the Trump family, I mean, they don't see this as a conflict of interest. The families see them"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 31, "text": "What has Trump or the White House or Lutnick or the Commerce Department had to say to you about when you ask them about potential conflicts of interest or ethical violations?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, at a minimum, there's an appearance of a conflict of interest, and there's an intertwining of the federal interest and private interest, which is really unusual, and it creates - it undermines"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 32, "text": "So you've pointed out how the Trump family and the Lutnick family are profiting in the sectors that Trump and Lutnick regulate. Is that happening in other areas, too? And I'm thinking specifically of Steve Witkoff, who is the main Middle East negotiator, a special envoy. And his sons are involved with investments, and they've worked with Trump sons on some things. Can you talk about that a little bit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I engage with them pretty intensely, and they're generally very responsive, and we go back and forth if they think something is factually incorrect. I really appreciate their willingness to en"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 33, "text": "Let's touch on the predictions market, which - it's such a controversial market right now. You can bet on anything. There's insider trading, including - like, the guy who runs Trump's teleprompter was involved with an insider trading thing 'cause he read the speech and he knew what Trump was going to say. So what are the business deals that the Trump family is involved with in the predictions market?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. And it's, again, super odd. We have these trio of sons - the Trump sons, the Lutnick sons and the Witkoff sons. And the Witkoffs are deeply involved in World Liberty Financial, which is "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 34, "text": "So is Congress, which is controlled by Republicans, investigating any of the stories that you have investigated and reported?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So again, you have a president who's setting policy by appointing a leadership at the Commodity Futures Trading Commission, which oversees the predictions markets, at the same time as the Trump sons a"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 35, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here. Let me reintroduce you. My guest is four-time Pulitzer Prize-winning reporter Eric Lipton of The New York Times. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, the Democrats continue to send letters to these agencies and to the White House asking questions about many of these stories. We see those letters. But no. I mean, the Republicans who have sub"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 36, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with New York Times reporter Eric Lipton. He's been investigating how President Trump and his family have profited from self-enriching White House deal-making, the conflicts of interest these business deals present and the ethical questions they raise. This year, he won his fourth Pulitzer Prize. One of the things I'm wondering about while interviewing you is, how do you keep all these facts in your head? 'Cause each of the sectors that we've been talking about - the financial schemes and the companies that bought companies that changed their names, that went public and so on - they're - each one of them is so complicated. And it must have taken so much work on the part of you and your fellow reporters. So you do the work. You report it. But now you're still remembering it. How do you do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, the Democrats continue to send letters to these agencies and to the White House asking questions about many of these stories. We see those letters. But no. I mean, the Republicans who have sub"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 37, "text": "Are they in, like, Word document kind of styles or, like, some kind of spreadsheet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And one of the things, whenever I start one of these stories, is I build a chronology. I mean, it's just like you're working on a term paper in college or high school. I build a really detailed chrono"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 38, "text": "And that can show you, too, the timing of investments versus policy...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They're not. I don't keep them in a spreadsheet because they're, like, unpredictable formats and lengths, each entry. So I just basically - everything has a link to a primary - I don't link to seconda"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 39, "text": "...And how intertwined they are.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 40, "text": "Before the public announcement.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I was looking at that time frame of the St. Regis meeting with the first investment that the Trump sons were involved with with that same company, but it was before the public announcement."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 41, "text": "All right. It's been great to talk with you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that's all in the chronology. And it was - like, only once that's lined up do you see here's what the - here's really the story. And I don't try to start writing a story like this until it's, like"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 42, "text": "And you're actually in the WHYY studio today as opposed to being in Washington, so we get to actually see each other, which has been delightful.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 43, "text": "So thank you so much for coming to the studio, thank you so much for this interview and for all the great reporting you've done.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, as well (ph)."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 44, "text": "Eric Lipton is an investigative reporter for The New York Times. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, my guest will be writer Claire Vaye Watkins. Like the character in her new novel, Watkins lives in the desert, in an area being developed by an energy company wreaking havoc on the ecosystem. Her previous novel drew on the life of her father, Paul Watkins. He was a teenager when he joined the Manson Family. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. It's always great to speak with you. It's one of the best opportunities to have long-form conversations in radio. So I always have a great time talking to you and having an opportunity to r"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5919997", "date": "2026-08-05", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump made an estimated $2.2 billion during the first year of his second term", "question_index": 45, "text": "To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram - @nprfreshair. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Sam Briger. Our senior producer today is Therese Madden. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Anna Bauman, Nico Gonzalez-Wisler and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Susan Nyakundi directed today's show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. It's always great to speak with you. It's one of the best opportunities to have long-form conversations in radio. So I always have a great time talking to you and having an opportunity to r"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5924104", "date": "2026-08-07", "guest": "Monty Roberts", "title": "Monty Roberts, who trained horses through trust, dies at 91", "question_index": 0, "text": "So what approach to discipline and negative reinforcement did your father use?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I suppose you'd say my father was a very traditional horse trainer, working in the conventional manner. And, the main concept is, you do what I tell you to, or I'll hurt you. What it is is that,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5924104", "date": "2026-08-07", "guest": "Monty Roberts", "title": "Monty Roberts, who trained horses through trust, dies at 91", "question_index": 1, "text": "What do you call your approach?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he would tie legs up on horses and tie them down on the ground. He would tie them to posts and work in such a way so as to frighten them and cause them to test those tethers to the maximum degre"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5924104", "date": "2026-08-07", "guest": "Monty Roberts", "title": "Monty Roberts, who trained horses through trust, dies at 91", "question_index": 2, "text": "Your basic principle in training horses is to try to use horse language to communicate with the horses, to use horse behavior and horse language, which you learned from being with horses in the wild, which we'll get to in a few minutes. Describe your join up method of asking, basically - asking the horse first to go away and to then join up with you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Starting. The approach itself is titled join up. But the procedure, I say, starting the horse rather than breaking the horse. Because I don't use any pain or restraint, and I request that the horse do"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5924104", "date": "2026-08-07", "guest": "Monty Roberts", "title": "Monty Roberts, who trained horses through trust, dies at 91", "question_index": 3, "text": "A wild horse is more vulnerable to being preyed on when it's on its own than when it's with other horses.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, it's their language and they use this business of sending the animal away. That is, they use it inter-specie as well as intra-specie. So they use this business of sending the animal away -"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5924104", "date": "2026-08-07", "guest": "Monty Roberts", "title": "Monty Roberts, who trained horses through trust, dies at 91", "question_index": 4, "text": "So how do you first send the horse away, which the horse doesn't like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. The isolated grazer or flight animal is smorgasbord for the lion or the tiger or the grizzly bear and that sort of thing, even coyotes, but wolves, certainly. And so, they're very upset with "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5924104", "date": "2026-08-07", "guest": "Monty Roberts", "title": "Monty Roberts, who trained horses through trust, dies at 91", "question_index": 5, "text": "What aggressive phrases in horse language do you use?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's easy because they're a flight animal, and if you're dealing with untrained animals, all you have to do is use the aggressive phrases in their own language, and the animal goes away. That'"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5924104", "date": "2026-08-07", "guest": "Monty Roberts", "title": "Monty Roberts, who trained horses through trust, dies at 91", "question_index": 6, "text": "And how do you get the horse, then, to come back?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first of all it would be eyes on eyes - piercing the eyes. That does not draw the animal in as it would the grizzly or the great white, but it drives the horse away. Then shoulders square, all m"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5924104", "date": "2026-08-07", "guest": "Monty Roberts", "title": "Monty Roberts, who trained horses through trust, dies at 91", "question_index": 7, "text": "So when the horse does all these things that you just mentioned, what signals are you giving, like, come back - let's get together now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, once the horse has gone its flight distance, then they begin to communicate that they would like to come back. And they do that with basically four statements. One is with the ear to say, I resp"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5924104", "date": "2026-08-07", "guest": "Monty Roberts", "title": "Monty Roberts, who trained horses through trust, dies at 91", "question_index": 8, "text": "You grew up on the grounds of a rodeo. Your parents ran a riding school, and you basically grew up in the rodeo. You won the national intercollegiate rodeo bulldogging championship. You won all kinds of, like, horse medals over the years. You started learning about horse language through observing wild mustangs in Sierra Nevada. And this relates to a wild horse race that used to be part of the rodeo. And when the wild horses were done with this race, the horses, at the time you were young, were taken to the slaughterhouse to be made into dog food - something that you found very upsetting. So I want you to tell the story of how this wild horse race, in which the horses would later be taken out and slaughtered, how that relates to your observing of wild horses.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, after those four, then I go passive from aggressive, those earlier ones that I mentioned, and passive means to take the eyes off the eyes, to lower your gaze, to put your shoulders on a 45-degre"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5924104", "date": "2026-08-07", "guest": "Monty Roberts", "title": "Monty Roberts, who trained horses through trust, dies at 91", "question_index": 9, "text": "The wild horses.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah, OK. The opportunity came up for me to go to Nevada and capture and bring these wild horses back to Salinas. My idea was that after the horse race was over, if I could put these horses thro"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5924104", "date": "2026-08-07", "guest": "Monty Roberts", "title": "Monty Roberts, who trained horses through trust, dies at 91", "question_index": 10, "text": "What were the first signs you picked up on, that made you realize there was a horse language that you could understand?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was - yeah, it was just an incredible adventure in learning, where I learned their language - spoken in the raw, spoken in the rarest form of freedom and completely without human intervention."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5924104", "date": "2026-08-07", "guest": "Monty Roberts", "title": "Monty Roberts, who trained horses through trust, dies at 91", "question_index": 11, "text": "And then what did you notice about communication? How horses use the language with each other?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "First sign I picked up on was how the dominant female was running the family group. She was the controller of the sociological aspects of the family group. And as a very young child, I'd seen the movi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5924104", "date": "2026-08-07", "guest": "Monty Roberts", "title": "Monty Roberts, who trained horses through trust, dies at 91", "question_index": 12, "text": "And then - and forcing them out of the group for a while as punishment?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The first thing I noticed in the forms or expressions of communication was the mare squaring up and isolating the obstreperous teenager, adolescent."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5924104", "date": "2026-08-07", "guest": "Monty Roberts", "title": "Monty Roberts, who trained horses through trust, dies at 91", "question_index": 13, "text": "You also studied horses ears and what they communicate.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Forcing them out of the group and holding them out of the group until they'd paid a price for their deed, whatever it was. And then how they allowed them back in and so forth and so on as you go throu"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5924104", "date": "2026-08-07", "guest": "Monty Roberts", "title": "Monty Roberts, who trained horses through trust, dies at 91", "question_index": 14, "text": "And what do the ears tell you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, indeed. The ears are very expressive, and you can read pretty much the intentions and the concerns of a horse by his ears."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5924104", "date": "2026-08-07", "guest": "Monty Roberts", "title": "Monty Roberts, who trained horses through trust, dies at 91", "question_index": 15, "text": "Depending on whether the ears are back or forward or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they tell you everything. I mean, they tell you whether they're angry, whether they're happy. They tell you whether they're tired or fresh."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5924104", "date": "2026-08-07", "guest": "Monty Roberts", "title": "Monty Roberts, who trained horses through trust, dies at 91", "question_index": 16, "text": "Over the years, a lot of people have brought problem horses to you - horses with serious behavior problems, horses who can't seem to be trained or who actually attack people. How do you adapt your technique to work with horses who have behavior problems?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Monty Roberts speaking to Terry Gross in 1997. More after a break, this is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1997 interview with horse trainer and author Monty Roberts. The man w"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5924104", "date": "2026-08-07", "guest": "Monty Roberts", "title": "Monty Roberts, who trained horses through trust, dies at 91", "question_index": 17, "text": "What do you think it is that you were able to do that turned her attitude around?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well first of all, Terry, there's no such thing as a problem horse on the face of the earth. There are horses who have problems with people. But yes, you're right - there are a lot of horses that peop"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5924104", "date": "2026-08-07", "guest": "Monty Roberts", "title": "Monty Roberts, who trained horses through trust, dies at 91", "question_index": 18, "text": "So when you handed her back to her owner, did you have to convince her owner to never use punishment on the horse again?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To give her trust in the human being. She never had trust before because she'd been beaten up. She'd been caused pain by human beings, to say you must do this or I'll hurt you."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5924104", "date": "2026-08-07", "guest": "Monty Roberts", "title": "Monty Roberts, who trained horses through trust, dies at 91", "question_index": 19, "text": "As a child, you were a stunt rider, and you, I think, doubled for Elizabeth Taylor in \"National Velvet.\" You did some work in \"My Friend Flicka.\" You doubled for Roddy McDowell, Mickey Rooney, Charlton Heston, Tab Hunter to name a few. Do you have a favorite stunt that you had to do in the films?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I never would have left California if I hadn't had an agreement to give me a young person from their organization who would learn all of the techniques that I used with this particular filly. Now, I c"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5924104", "date": "2026-08-07", "guest": "Monty Roberts", "title": "Monty Roberts, who trained horses through trust, dies at 91", "question_index": 20, "text": "I've seen that in a thousand westerns", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I suppose they - the movies-makers tend to categorize you, and they say oh, we're going to to this. That guy Roberts he does that about as - about the best of anybody. It seems to me that my spot beca"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5924104", "date": "2026-08-07", "guest": "Monty Roberts", "title": "Monty Roberts, who trained horses through trust, dies at 91", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I suppose they - the movies-makers tend to categorize you, and they say oh, we're going to to this. That guy Roberts he does that about as - about the best of anybody. It seems to me that my spot beca"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5924104", "date": "2026-08-07", "guest": "Monty Roberts", "title": "Monty Roberts, who trained horses through trust, dies at 91", "question_index": 22, "text": "So what were some of the things you have to do to stay on the horse and make that work?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well that was me. That is to say, if you saw one made in the '40s or '50s, I was probably involved if there were rocks and sand flying, and you went into the trees or into the river, that was pr"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5924104", "date": "2026-08-07", "guest": "Monty Roberts", "title": "Monty Roberts, who trained horses through trust, dies at 91", "question_index": 23, "text": "Did you do any of that fancy showy stuff like side-saddle riding? And when you're holding on to the saddle and your body is suspended on the side of the horse while you're dodging bullets from the bad guy who's shooting from behind a rock.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I always said you get high, that is to say, you get light on the horse, you get high above him. And you try not to interfere with his own movements, so that he has the best chance of keeping his feet."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5924104", "date": "2026-08-07", "guest": "Monty Roberts", "title": "Monty Roberts, who trained horses through trust, dies at 91", "question_index": 24, "text": "That's it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, that was - that was one of the first stunts they asked me to do. They said, can you gallop left to right and make yourself invisible by hanging off..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5924104", "date": "2026-08-07", "guest": "Monty Roberts", "title": "Monty Roberts, who trained horses through trust, dies at 91", "question_index": 25, "text": "Yeah. That's it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...The far side."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5924104", "date": "2026-08-07", "guest": "Monty Roberts", "title": "Monty Roberts, who trained horses through trust, dies at 91", "question_index": 26, "text": "Oh, wait, wait - what did you use that for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I did a lot of that, and jumping on from behind, yes. And I used the mini-trampoline a lot, so..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5924104", "date": "2026-08-07", "guest": "Monty Roberts", "title": "Monty Roberts, who trained horses through trust, dies at 91", "question_index": 27, "text": "Oh, so that's how it's done.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so that you thought I could jump eight feet high when I got on..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5924104", "date": "2026-08-07", "guest": "Monty Roberts", "title": "Monty Roberts, who trained horses through trust, dies at 91", "question_index": 28, "text": "I didn't realize that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5924104", "date": "2026-08-07", "guest": "Monty Roberts", "title": "Monty Roberts, who trained horses through trust, dies at 91", "question_index": 29, "text": "When you were a young man, you worked in rodeos, and one of the things you did was the bull riding events. You won a championship in that area. You described that as the most dangerous event in the rodeo. Why?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm TV critic David Bianculli. We're remembering Monty Roberts, the horse trainer who pioneered and advocated a more gentle approach to training horses. His philosophy was embraced "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5924104", "date": "2026-08-07", "guest": "Monty Roberts", "title": "Monty Roberts, who trained horses through trust, dies at 91", "question_index": 30, "text": "Well, here's what I want to know. You're somebody who has such a strong kinship with horses, tries to communicate with them in their own language. Do you feel any empathy with the bulls?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I won a couple of small championships in bull riding. I won my major championship in bulldogging. But bull riding is a very dangerous event, and it's dangerous because the bull generally weighs "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5924104", "date": "2026-08-07", "guest": "Monty Roberts", "title": "Monty Roberts, who trained horses through trust, dies at 91", "question_index": 31, "text": "You do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I love bulls."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5924104", "date": "2026-08-07", "guest": "Monty Roberts", "title": "Monty Roberts, who trained horses through trust, dies at 91", "question_index": 32, "text": "What does it feel like to be thrown by a bull?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I love them to death. And my son became a very good bull rider later, and he was absolutely in love with bulls. I mean, we had bulls in training programs to teach them to buck, and I have great empath"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5924104", "date": "2026-08-07", "guest": "Monty Roberts", "title": "Monty Roberts, who trained horses through trust, dies at 91", "question_index": 33, "text": "What I was going to ask you - what is the point of this event", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It hurts a lot, and it's loud noises when your head hits the ground and stuff. It's stupid. It's really stupid for anybody to go into that."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5924104", "date": "2026-08-07", "guest": "Monty Roberts", "title": "Monty Roberts, who trained horses through trust, dies at 91", "question_index": 34, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It hurts a lot, and it's loud noises when your head hits the ground and stuff. It's stupid. It's really stupid for anybody to go into that."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5924104", "date": "2026-08-07", "guest": "Monty Roberts", "title": "Monty Roberts, who trained horses through trust, dies at 91", "question_index": 35, "text": "As we discussed earlier, your father was a horse trainer, and he tried to whip horses into submission, to kind of beat them into submission. And I guess he used brutality on you, too, to try to keep you in line. And I'm wondering if that's related to the fact that you have adopted, I think, about 47 foster kids over the years...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's crazy. It's absolutely crazy. But when you're raised around it and you watch your peers accomplishing something so incredibly overwhelming by riding this particular bull, there's some kind of urg"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5924104", "date": "2026-08-07", "guest": "Monty Roberts", "title": "Monty Roberts, who trained horses through trust, dies at 91", "question_index": 36, "text": "...For different intervals of time, kids who had been abused or who had run into problems with the law. Do those two things relate?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5924104", "date": "2026-08-07", "guest": "Monty Roberts", "title": "Monty Roberts, who trained horses through trust, dies at 91", "question_index": 37, "text": "Did you use any of the principles that you had learned working with horses when you were working with your children?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure they do. I didn't know they did when I began to do it. You see, I went through university in psychology, and I volunteered for every family psychology experiment or lab project that they had."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5924104", "date": "2026-08-07", "guest": "Monty Roberts", "title": "Monty Roberts, who trained horses through trust, dies at 91", "question_index": 38, "text": "Not too many years ago - well, maybe you could tell me the year 'cause I don't really remember. You had major back surgery. I mean, your back had basically given out because of all of the falls you've taken over the years, the impact of all the riding on horses and bulls", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I used all the principles, the same principles. It's the same psychology. Give them a chance to fail, so they can have that chance to succeed. When they fail, they're responsible for their own actions"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5924104", "date": "2026-08-07", "guest": "Monty Roberts", "title": "Monty Roberts, who trained horses through trust, dies at 91", "question_index": 39, "text": ". And the doctor told you you'd never ride again. I think they would have been happier if you walked, but you ended up being able to walk and ride. However, I'm sure you're much more fragile than you were before your back problems. When you're working with a horse now, are you just a little more self-protective of your own body than you were before, and is that affecting your technique with horses?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I used all the principles, the same principles. It's the same psychology. Give them a chance to fail, so they can have that chance to succeed. When they fail, they're responsible for their own actions"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5924104", "date": "2026-08-07", "guest": "Monty Roberts", "title": "Monty Roberts, who trained horses through trust, dies at 91", "question_index": 40, "text": "Tell me about your favorite horse.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I am more protective now, more careful than I was when I was young. I think that's kind of a natural evolution for most people. But for me, it's a good deal more serious because I was in a wheelc"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928224", "date": "2026-08-12", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Has the U.S. lost its dominance to China?", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. When it comes to the production of drones, electric vehicles, lithium-ion batteries, solar cells and clinical trials of pharmaceuticals, China is ahead of the U.S. Beijing might also be benefiting from the war in Iran and from President Donald Trump's tariffs. So does this mean the era of America's global leadership is over? My guest, Evan Osnos, addresses these and other issues in his latest article in The New Yorker titled \"The Future, Made in China.\" He's a staff writer at the magazine, where he's written extensively about China, as well as American politics and the tech world. Before that, he was the Beijing bureau chief for the Chicago Tribune and was part of teams that won the Pulitzer Prize in 2001 and 2008. Osnos is also a host of the New Yorker podcast \"The Political Scene.\" His first book, \"Age Of Ambition: Chasing Fortune, Truth, And Faith In The New China,\" won the 2014 National Book Award for nonfiction and was a finalist for the Pulitzer Prize. His latest book is \"The Haves And Have-Yachts: Dispatches On The Ultrarich.\" We recorded our interview yesterday. Evan Osnos, welcome back to FRESH AIR. So the way the Chinese leadership sees it, as you describe it, is that China is winning the war in Iran. Can you explain why China believes that?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928224", "date": "2026-08-12", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Has the U.S. lost its dominance to China?", "question_index": 1, "text": "So does China now have an open door to Taiwan if we don't have as many ships and weapons there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in some sense, it is from their perspective always to China's benefit to see the United States drawn back into the Middle East. You know, this has been the place that has consumed so much Americ"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928224", "date": "2026-08-12", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Has the U.S. lost its dominance to China?", "question_index": 2, "text": "So we've depleted a lot of our weapons in Iran. The military, apparently, is worried about that. The Pentagon's worried about it. Would building new weapons require materials from China?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it certainly sets up conditions that would make it easier. I mean, just as a functional matter, there are many people in Washington now who are concerned that if the United States found itself h"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928224", "date": "2026-08-12", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Has the U.S. lost its dominance to China?", "question_index": 3, "text": "Has China taken sides in the war in Iran? I know, like, Trump was hoping that China would help open up the strait. That hasn't happened.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Unfortunately, the irony here is that we are, in some ways, beholden right now to the Chinese factory in order to produce the munitions that we need to defend American interests from China. That"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928224", "date": "2026-08-12", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Has the U.S. lost its dominance to China?", "question_index": 4, "text": "So when you say that China sees the U.S. as dangerous, do you mean in terms of nuclear weapons, or do you mean in terms of something else?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, that hasn't happened. China, historically, in the last, you know, many years, has been very close to Iran. It's been a big customer of Iranian oil. According to intelligence reports, they have bee"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928224", "date": "2026-08-12", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Has the U.S. lost its dominance to China?", "question_index": 5, "text": "Trump made it seem when he started raising tariffs and really raised tariffs a lot initially in China - he made it seem like he really hammered China. He gave it to them. And Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent predicted Beijing would quickly submit. That has not happened. The Supreme Court struck down many of Trump's tariffs, but he's testing ways around that. I think from how you describe it, China's leadership thinks it's winning in the tariff war, too. How is China taking advantage of the tariffs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's partly nuclear weapons, but it's also an attitude. It's a sensibility. They look at the U.S. over the course of the last 10 years, especially, and they think, and I know that this will be a contr"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928224", "date": "2026-08-12", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Has the U.S. lost its dominance to China?", "question_index": 6, "text": "Are countries also wary of trading with the U.S. 'cause Trump has been so unpredictable in his tariff and trade policies, and they're reverting to trading with China instead?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one of the things was that they were prepared for it, partly because of the first Trump term. They anticipated that he would probably try to introduce big tariffs, so they've spent the years in "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928224", "date": "2026-08-12", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Has the U.S. lost its dominance to China?", "question_index": 7, "text": "Do you have any clues what the Chinese leadership thinks of Trump himself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. There's been a feeling among a number of places that they, frankly, don't trust either the United States or China right now. They don't feel as if either one of these countries is particularly l"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928224", "date": "2026-08-12", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Has the U.S. lost its dominance to China?", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, we need to take a break here, so let me reintroduce you. My guest is Evan Osnos, a staff writer for The New Yorker. His latest article is titled \"The Future, Made In China.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. There are some indications. There was a think tank report that came out earlier this year, which doesn't come out accidentally. Something like that in China is only issued with approval from the"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928224", "date": "2026-08-12", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Has the U.S. lost its dominance to China?", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with New Yorker staff writer Evan Osnos. His latest article is titled \"The Future, Made In China.\" Well, let's get to the tech war, 'cause China and the U.S. are competing for the position of No. 1 in tech. What is China ahead on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. There are some indications. There was a think tank report that came out earlier this year, which doesn't come out accidentally. Something like that in China is only issued with approval from the"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928224", "date": "2026-08-12", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Has the U.S. lost its dominance to China?", "question_index": 10, "text": "And just as China is investing all these resources into research - tech research, pharmaceutical research - it's, as we were saying, simultaneous with the Trump administration withdrawing funding from those very same things.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "China has built a large lead when it comes to manufacturing a lot of the hardware of our technological lives. So things that you mentioned earlier - things like electric vehicles, which China now buil"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928224", "date": "2026-08-12", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Has the U.S. lost its dominance to China?", "question_index": 11, "text": "Well, in talking about how AI and robots are being used in China, give us an example of one of the most dramatic, surprising, kind of overwhelming amount of robots or AI you witnessed in one spot.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. There's a really acute demonstration of this when you look at the science around drug discovery and biotechnology. In Trump's first term, the Department of Justice launched something called the "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928224", "date": "2026-08-12", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Has the U.S. lost its dominance to China?", "question_index": 12, "text": "How did you divide between the two?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Probably the most dramatic demonstration of this is at a car factory. There's a place in Beijing run by a company called Xiaomi, which started out making smartphones and, you know, kind of household e"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928224", "date": "2026-08-12", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Has the U.S. lost its dominance to China?", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well, we need to take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Evan Osnos, a staff writer for The New Yorker. His latest article is titled \"The Future, Made In China.\" We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, sometimes you get the very clear sense that these demonstrations of technology are perhaps not ready for prime time. I mean, I went to a convenience store that was downstairs from a robot compan"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928224", "date": "2026-08-12", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Has the U.S. lost its dominance to China?", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with New Yorker staff writer Evan Osnos about his article \"The Future, Made In China.\" It's about the tech competition between the U.S. and China and how who wins will have huge political implications. He describes how tech, especially AI, is changing China for better and for worse and the ways in which China may be benefiting from the war in Iran and President Trump's tariffs. He also considers whether the era of American global leadership is ending or already over. We recorded our interview yesterday. Did you get a sense, and there are so many people in China, it's hard to generalize about, like, what people in China think. But nevertheless, did you get a sense of what has been seen as the advantages and disadvantages of China's, like, rapid progression with technology? You know, how robots and AI are advantageous to have. And also, what are some of the downsides on a day-to-day level for people in China?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, sometimes you get the very clear sense that these demonstrations of technology are perhaps not ready for prime time. I mean, I went to a convenience store that was downstairs from a robot compan"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928224", "date": "2026-08-12", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Has the U.S. lost its dominance to China?", "question_index": 15, "text": "It sounds like students in China are asking a lot of the same questions that American students are asking, which is, what jobs are out there? What jobs will be out there for me when I graduate? What should I study? Will there be a career in what I study, or will that all be, like, AI and robotics by the time I'm done?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think that generally speaking, and I agree, it's hard to generalize, but there are ways in which through enough conversations and with bits of surveys here and there, we can begin to form an i"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928224", "date": "2026-08-12", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Has the U.S. lost its dominance to China?", "question_index": 16, "text": "It's interesting that more people are deciding not to have children because China had enforced a one-child policy where you were legally not allowed to have more than one child. So now, the fact that a lot of people are choosing not to have any children after rebelling against the one-child policy. I find that really interesting. I don't know what it says.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. There's been a big change in the last few years that Chinese universities have, in some cases, gotten rid of some of their humanities departments. They say these are obsolete, and so there's bee"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928224", "date": "2026-08-12", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Has the U.S. lost its dominance to China?", "question_index": 17, "text": "Are robots filling in the gap of the lack of workers because of the one-child policy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that that experience of the one-child policy looms really heavily in people's minds. I mean, if you don't know what happened, it was kind of amazing. I mean, in the late 1970s, China's leaders"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928224", "date": "2026-08-12", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Has the U.S. lost its dominance to China?", "question_index": 18, "text": "Well, I'm going to reintroduce you again. My guest is Evan Osnos, a staff writer for The New Yorker. His latest article is titled \"The Future, Made In China.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They are. It's one of the ways that the Chinese government imagines it's going to make up this shortfall. They've said it explicitly. They said, robots will help us with these human resource challenge"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928224", "date": "2026-08-12", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Has the U.S. lost its dominance to China?", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with New Yorker staff writer Evan Osnos. His latest article is titled \"The Future, Made In China.\" Let's describe another side of AI and tech in China, and that is surveillance. What are some of the ways that tech is being used to further surveil Chinese people at work, maybe at home? I don't know. Is this penetrating at home, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They are. It's one of the ways that the Chinese government imagines it's going to make up this shortfall. They've said it explicitly. They said, robots will help us with these human resource challenge"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928224", "date": "2026-08-12", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Has the U.S. lost its dominance to China?", "question_index": 20, "text": "So something else that you were exposed to - I want you to talk about how you were graded in emotion recognition training enhancement system.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's sort of starting to be everywhere. This is one of the most noticeable changes over the last few years. I mean, there are parts of China today where there are cameras watching the trash bins"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928224", "date": "2026-08-12", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Has the U.S. lost its dominance to China?", "question_index": 21, "text": "That is so bizarre. I'm glad my therapist doesn't speak to me that way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. This really stayed with me. I walked up to a kiosk at an AI expo, and it told me to stand in front of it for 30 seconds. And at the end of that period, it produced a report on the screen. And it"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928224", "date": "2026-08-12", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Has the U.S. lost its dominance to China?", "question_index": 22, "text": "And apparently you or it left out some of the negatives. You just focused on fear and rage. You got...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, you know, it really revealed something to me. It was - it made me aware of the idea that there is this kind of faith in scientific precision that is beyond, really, what is reliable. This idea th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928224", "date": "2026-08-12", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Has the U.S. lost its dominance to China?", "question_index": 23, "text": "...Other negatives going there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928224", "date": "2026-08-12", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Has the U.S. lost its dominance to China?", "question_index": 24, "text": "I guess a question this raises for me is - if the government would like to assume that part of your rage is against the government itself, this kind of thing could really be used against you, also with fear. If you're afraid of the government, maybe that's 'cause you're a dissident. Maybe they need to check you out. Am I...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Raised a lot of questions for me."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928224", "date": "2026-08-12", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Has the U.S. lost its dominance to China?", "question_index": 25, "text": "...Overexaggerating how this could be used?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928224", "date": "2026-08-12", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Has the U.S. lost its dominance to China?", "question_index": 26, "text": "You compare how tech is being regulated in the U.S. versus China. And in China, tech is tightly regulated. And in the U.S., as you point out, Obama had a regulation plan. Trump threw that out and instead is leaving it to Silicon Valley to regulate itself. And you quote Trump as having said, we have to grow that baby and let that baby thrive. We can't stop it with foolish rules. So would you make that comparison?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. You're not. I think that is one of the implications here. And they're using similar technology to try to assess people in police stations. I mean, one of the pieces of technology that was being so"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928224", "date": "2026-08-12", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Has the U.S. lost its dominance to China?", "question_index": 27, "text": "And then in the U.S., we have that recent story where, in the OpenAI lab, some of the AI models left the test environment and hacked into a different company's production systems.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in the U.S., the Trump administration has made this very clear decision. And Trump says it explicitly - that he wants to go full speed on AI and the technologies associated with it. For instance"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928224", "date": "2026-08-12", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Has the U.S. lost its dominance to China?", "question_index": 28, "text": "I need to reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Evan Osnos, a staff writer for The New Yorker. And his latest article is titled \"The Future, Made In China.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. This is something that they're very worried about in China. The Chinese Communist Party, when it talks about AI, the single most important thing it cares about is making sure that it's under con"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928224", "date": "2026-08-12", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Has the U.S. lost its dominance to China?", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Evan Osnos, a staff writer for The New Yorker. His latest article is titled \"The Future, Made in China.\" The subtitle of your article \"The Future, Made in China\" is \"Beijing Is Competing With The U.S. For Tech Supremacy. Who Wins Will Have Huge Political Implications.\" What are those political implications, do you think?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. This is something that they're very worried about in China. The Chinese Communist Party, when it talks about AI, the single most important thing it cares about is making sure that it's under con"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928224", "date": "2026-08-12", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Has the U.S. lost its dominance to China?", "question_index": 30, "text": "You quote a retired senior colonel in the People's Liberation Army of China as telling you that common sense says countries rise and fall in cycles. But this colonel thinks Americans have lost that historical awareness. And he says Americans have been so strong for so long that every American believes, I'm a member of the strongest nation on Earth. Do you think that's an accurate observation - that Americans are so used to being, like, the global leader and the global dominant power that they're not noticing that America is losing its standing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One of the things we know from history is that a country that masters the technology of its time can make a big jump in its influence around the world. Take, for example - in the 18th century, you had"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928224", "date": "2026-08-12", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Has the U.S. lost its dominance to China?", "question_index": 31, "text": "So I want to ask you one more thing. So I've really been enjoying \"The Political Scene,\" your New Yorker podcast with Jane Mayer of The New Yorker and Susan Glasser of The New Yorker. And you're three, like, incredibly smart, incredibly interesting-to-listen-to people, and you're sharing your thoughts on the latest in politics.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was true until perhaps a few years ago. I do think there was a feeling for many years after the end of the Cold War that we had prevailed in that giant struggle - you know, what was sometim"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928224", "date": "2026-08-12", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Has the U.S. lost its dominance to China?", "question_index": 32, "text": "Yeah. And I'm wondering - how do you like doing a podcast?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928224", "date": "2026-08-12", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Has the U.S. lost its dominance to China?", "question_index": 33, "text": "I feel lucky to be able to read and listen to what you're doing, so thank you very much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I've found that there's something really useful about sitting in a room with some smart colleagues and trying to make sense of a period in our lives that can feel sometimes almost impossible to "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928224", "date": "2026-08-12", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Has the U.S. lost its dominance to China?", "question_index": 34, "text": "Evan Osnos is a staff writer at The New Yorker. His latest article is titled \"The Future, Made In China.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest'll be Colman Domingo. He spent decades in the theater, tending bar between shows. Now he's up for two Emmys for a comedy and a drama series. He'll talk about \"Euphoria,\" playing Joe Jackson and working with a team of comedians in \"The Four Seasons.\" I hope you'll join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram - @nprfreshair.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My pleasure. Thanks for having me, Terry."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928224", "date": "2026-08-12", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Has the U.S. lost its dominance to China?", "question_index": 35, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Sam Briger. Our technical director and engineer is Audi Bentham. Our engineer today is Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez-Wisler. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My pleasure. Thanks for having me, Terry."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928227", "date": "2026-08-14", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "How Americans deceive ourselves about slavery", "question_index": 0, "text": "What were you taught in school about the Confederate generals and the owners of enslaved people whose names and statues were all over New Orleans where you grew up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So much of what animated this book and served as a catalyst for wanting to write this book was watching the statues - these Confederate statues in my hometown of New Orleans - come down in May of 2017"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928227", "date": "2026-08-14", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "How Americans deceive ourselves about slavery", "question_index": 1, "text": "So it's very hard to change the narrative of history, even when the narrative you're trying to change is proven to be wrong or distorted. But some places really are trying to change the narrative. And you visited one of those places - Jefferson's home and plantation, Monticello. And it seems that the narrative there is changing - that the tours given to people now are saying very different things about the history there than the tours that used to be given. Give us an example of that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was taught very little, to be honest. And to the extent that I was taught anything, I was taught that, you know, Robert E. Lee was an honorable man who fought for the state and the people that he lo"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928227", "date": "2026-08-14", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "How Americans deceive ourselves about slavery", "question_index": 2, "text": "I thought it was really interesting that some of the tourists are basically prepared - or you might even say warned - by the tour guides that some of what you're going to hear today might be difficult. Because a lot of the people who come to visit Monticello are just expecting a heroic story about Jefferson and not realizing that some of the story they're going to get is about Jefferson as a slave owner, somebody who bought and sold people and who had a sexual relationship with one of the people who he owned. So did that surprise you - that there were almost, like, you know, like warnings before the tour?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So Monticello, I think, is a really fascinating example of a place that evolves and changes over time and responds to new information and shapes their - the curation of their museum experience i"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928227", "date": "2026-08-14", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "How Americans deceive ourselves about slavery", "question_index": 3, "text": "Yeah. And getting back to Sally Hemings for a second, she was 16, and Jefferson was in his mid-40s when he started his sexual relationship with her. So he's having sex with somebody who he owns, and she's 16.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It did. So the tour you're referencing is the Slavery at Monticello Tour. And one of the things that was most interesting about it is that, to your point, a lot of people come to this place having no "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928227", "date": "2026-08-14", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "How Americans deceive ourselves about slavery", "question_index": 4, "text": "So when you think about the Declaration of Independence - and Thomas Jefferson was one of the drafters of the Declaration - what do you have to reconcile in your mind?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Part of what Monticello is doing, too, is trying to sort of complicate notions of the history that we've been taught and saying that, you know, we cannot understand what Sally Hemings' relation"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928227", "date": "2026-08-14", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "How Americans deceive ourselves about slavery", "question_index": 5, "text": "In the epilogue of your book, you write about your grandparents, and you actually interview them. And so, I'd like to start this section of our interview with asking you to read a paragraph about your grandfather's grandfather. And to me, this is almost like a prose poem.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Clint Smith speaking to Terry Gross in 2021. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2021 interview with author, historian and poet Clint Smith. Two of his "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928227", "date": "2026-08-14", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "How Americans deceive ourselves about slavery", "question_index": 6, "text": "When did you ask?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd be happy to. (Reading) My grandfather's grandfather was enslaved. They shared a name, a lineage, and the hard soil of Mississippi. My grandfather's grandfather was enslaved. I thought about how I "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928227", "date": "2026-08-14", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "How Americans deceive ourselves about slavery", "question_index": 7, "text": "You know, the reading that you did for us, it's almost like you're just mulling over and saying to yourself over and over, my grandfather's grandfather was enslaved. And I'm sure, like, you knew in some abstract level that your ancestors had been enslaved. What was the difference between knowing abstractly and finding out that your grandfather's grandfather was enslaved? Like, 'cause it sounds like it was almost, in its own way, a shock to have the specificity of that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was in the process of writing this book. You know, one of the reasons I wanted to end the book with the interviews and conversations with my grandparents is based on a trip that I took with my gran"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928227", "date": "2026-08-14", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "How Americans deceive ourselves about slavery", "question_index": 8, "text": "Clint Smith, welcome back to FRESH AIR. It's really a treat to have you back on the show. Your book opens with a prose poem about something I've been thinking about a lot, and I know a lot of other people think about this, too. And that is, how do you hold two opposing thoughts in your head at the same time - gratitude for the things that are right in your life, and anger or fear about everything that's wrong in your life or in politics or in the larger world or with the Earth itself? What were you trying to reconcile when you wrote this? What was happening in your life?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Clint Smith speaking to Terry Gross in 2021. After a break, we'll hear another of their conversations. And critic-at-large John Powers reviews \"Lanterns,\" the new TV show featuring the classic DC comi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928227", "date": "2026-08-14", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "How Americans deceive ourselves about slavery", "question_index": 9, "text": "And you have the ability to put it all in words that really perfect the thought, clarify the thought. So would you read for us \"All At Once\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, it's so good to be back with you, Terry. It's always a pleasure to be on this program. And with regard to this first poem, so much of what I've been thinking about over the last several ye"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928227", "date": "2026-08-14", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "How Americans deceive ourselves about slavery", "question_index": 10, "text": "Before we get to more of your poems, I want to ask you about your nonfiction book, \"How The Word Is Passed.\" That's about the legacy of slavery and the monuments commemorating the Confederacy and slave holders and the distortions of history. Has your book been banned? There are so many books now, fiction and nonfiction, related to Black history that have been banned or that are under consideration for removal from the classroom.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd be happy to. \"All At Once.\" (Reading) The redwoods are on fire in California. A flood submerges a neighborhood that sat quiet on the coast for three centuries. A child takes their first steps and "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928227", "date": "2026-08-14", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "How Americans deceive ourselves about slavery", "question_index": 11, "text": "Let's talk about your poems. And I want you to read one that's in part about what your grandparents lived through growing up in what you describe as the apartheid South. Your grandfather was from Mississippi and your grandmother from Florida. And it also refers to the miracle of your son being born, your first child, because he was hard to conceive and then the pregnancy ended up being very risky. Would you read it for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, it's interesting because I think there are a couple different ways that book-banning manifests itself as a sort of political and social phenomenon. I'm not specifically familiar with w"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928227", "date": "2026-08-14", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "How Americans deceive ourselves about slavery", "question_index": 12, "text": "Do you tell your children about what it took for them to get here, for you to get here, what your grandparents endured and how they survived?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"By Chance.\" (Reading) If the doctors said you were impossible and you arrived anyway, does it mean they were wrong? Or does it mean you defied science? What is the difference between science and a mi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928227", "date": "2026-08-14", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "How Americans deceive ourselves about slavery", "question_index": 13, "text": "Did you always know you wanted to be a father? And when you were younger and - well, when you were older, when you were a young man and you looked around and you saw the people who were parents your age and older, what did you see?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Clint Smith speaking to Terry Gross in 2023. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2023 interview with author, historian and poet Clint Smith. They're dis"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928227", "date": "2026-08-14", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "How Americans deceive ourselves about slavery", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, man. Well, I thought that once you reach your 30s, you were, like, an elderly person."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928227", "date": "2026-08-14", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "How Americans deceive ourselves about slavery", "question_index": 15, "text": "I want you to read a poem about that. And this is a poem about meeting your wife and deciding to try to conceive pretty soon because of the problems of fertility.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I was like - you know, I couldn't - I was like, well, once you have kids, you're like old. You must be on - I didn't know what Social Security was. But I was like, well, whatever version of the thi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928227", "date": "2026-08-14", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "How Americans deceive ourselves about slavery", "question_index": 16, "text": "So that was a follow-up poem to the title poem of your first book of poetry, which is also about thinking about your past in terms of numbers. I'll just quote a few lines. You write, my grandfather is a quarter century older than his right to vote, and two decades younger than the president who signed the paper that made it so. Why do numbers have so much power where you're counting, you know, the days, the months, the distance between?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Counting Descent 2.\" (Reading) My son was born on the 71st day of spring on the fifth floor of a hospital in a city with a history of burning. He had two grandmothers in the room and four generations"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928227", "date": "2026-08-14", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "How Americans deceive ourselves about slavery", "question_index": 17, "text": "There's a poem I'd like you to read about being out at the pharmacy with your two young kids. And if you have any greatest hits, any poems you think of as greatest hits, I would imagine this would be one of them. So this poem is called \"Gold Stars.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I should say that this poem and the one that preceded it were inspired by a mentor of mine, Alan Michael Parker, who's a professor at Davidson College, where I went. And he was my adviser. He wa"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928227", "date": "2026-08-14", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "How Americans deceive ourselves about slavery", "question_index": 18, "text": "Your wife must love that poem and the acknowledgment of the disparity between how men are just, like, acknowledged and applauded for just being a father out in public with their kids and the way women are just expected to be that way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Gold Stars.\" (Reading) On the days when I am out alone with my children, I'm made to feel as if I am a saint or a god or the undisputed best father of all time. What I mean is that when we walk into "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5928227", "date": "2026-08-14", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "How Americans deceive ourselves about slavery", "question_index": 19, "text": "Clint Smith, it's been great having you on the show again and hearing you read your poems and talk about your life. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's one of those things where - you know, and we talk about this all the time and experience it in such profoundly different ways all the time. And I think there's an additional layer because, "}
{"id": "523495201", "date": "2017-04-12", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How One Man Brought Justices Roberts, Alito And Gorsuch To The Supreme Court", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. One man is responsible to a considerable extent for choosing a third of the justices on the Supreme Court, including Neil Gorsuch, who was sworn in Monday. That's what Jeffrey Toobin reports in his latest article in The New Yorker called \"The Conservative Pipeline To The Supreme Court.\" The article is about Leonard Leo, who Toobin says served in effect as president Trump's subcontractor on the selection of Gorsuch. Leo also played a crucial part in the nominations of Justices Roberts and Alito. Leo is executive vice president of The Federalist Society, a national group of conservative lawyers, which Toobin also writes about in his article. The society was co-founded by law students in 1982. One of their faculty advisers was Antonin Scalia, who Justice Gorsuch has now replaced on the court. Jeffrey Toobin is a staff writer for The New Yorker and a senior legal analyst for CNN. Jeffrey Toobin, welcome back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "523495201", "date": "2017-04-12", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How One Man Brought Justices Roberts, Alito And Gorsuch To The Supreme Court", "question_index": 1, "text": "You write that Leonard Leo served in effect as Trump's subcontractor on the selection of Neil Gorsuch. So describe his role a little bit.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hi, Terry."}
{"id": "523495201", "date": "2017-04-12", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How One Man Brought Justices Roberts, Alito And Gorsuch To The Supreme Court", "question_index": 2, "text": "Well, you mean, releasing publicly a list...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Leonard Leo is the executive vice president of The Federalist Society, which is a lawyers group, a nonprofit organization, that was founded in 1982 and basically operates to bring conservative l"}
{"id": "523495201", "date": "2017-04-12", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How One Man Brought Justices Roberts, Alito And Gorsuch To The Supreme Court", "question_index": 3, "text": "...Of potential nominees had never been done before.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct, correct."}
{"id": "523495201", "date": "2017-04-12", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How One Man Brought Justices Roberts, Alito And Gorsuch To The Supreme Court", "question_index": 4, "text": "Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It had never been done before. I actually think it's kind of a good idea."}
{"id": "523495201", "date": "2017-04-12", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How One Man Brought Justices Roberts, Alito And Gorsuch To The Supreme Court", "question_index": 5, "text": "The way you're describing it, it makes it sound like Trump went to Leonard Leo and said, give me a list of judges that will make the conservatives like me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, because I think the appointment of a Supreme Court justice is among the very most important jobs that any president does. And why shouldn't the public know the kind of people that the president "}
{"id": "523495201", "date": "2017-04-12", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How One Man Brought Justices Roberts, Alito And Gorsuch To The Supreme Court", "question_index": 6, "text": "Is that - are you saying that's what happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. You said it shorter."}
{"id": "523495201", "date": "2017-04-12", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How One Man Brought Justices Roberts, Alito And Gorsuch To The Supreme Court", "question_index": 7, "text": "How did Donald Trump know to go to Leonard Leo to make that list?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You said it shorter than I did, Terry, but that's exactly what he did. I mean - and I think if you listened to conservatives throughout the fall, a lot of whom had a great deal of distaste for Trump p"}
{"id": "523495201", "date": "2017-04-12", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How One Man Brought Justices Roberts, Alito And Gorsuch To The Supreme Court", "question_index": 8, "text": "So one of Leonard Leo's jobs at The Federalist Society has been to kind of create a pipeline for students to get to the bench and for people on the federal bench to get to the Supreme Court, people who conservatives approve of because The Federalist Society started more as a student organization and then it became something to channel people to judicial appointments, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's really the story that I wrote in The New Yorker is how Leonard Leo, this really - this person who has never held government office, who's never been a law professor, who doesn't give spee"}
{"id": "523495201", "date": "2017-04-12", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How One Man Brought Justices Roberts, Alito And Gorsuch To The Supreme Court", "question_index": 9, "text": "OK, let's take a short break here and then we'll talk some more. My guest is Jeffrey Toobin. We're talking about his latest article in The New Yorker, which is called \"The Conservative Pipeline To The Supreme Court.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. And he's very open about that and very proud of that. And, you know - and he says, look, this is what we want to do. We want you, when you're a law student, to go to Federalist Society e"}
{"id": "523495201", "date": "2017-04-12", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How One Man Brought Justices Roberts, Alito And Gorsuch To The Supreme Court", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is Jeffrey Toobin. He's a staff writer for The New Yorker and senior legal analyst for CNN. We're talking about his latest article in The New Yorker, \"The Conservative Pipeline To The Supreme Court.\" It's about Leonard Leo, a longtime executive vice president of The Federalist Society, who served, in effect, as President Trump's subcontractor, Toobin says, on the selection of Neil Gorsuch and also played a crucial part in the nominations of John Roberts and Samuel Alito to the Supreme Court. So the piece is in part about Leonard Leo, and it's also about the history of the conservative judicial group The Federalist Society. So Donald Trump asked Leonard Leo to make up a list of potential Supreme Court nominees. Gorsuch was on that list. After President Trump got to nominate Neil Gorsuch, Leonard Leo took a leave from The Federalist Society to groom Gorsuch for the hearing. So what was his role in the grooming, do you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. And he's very open about that and very proud of that. And, you know - and he says, look, this is what we want to do. We want you, when you're a law student, to go to Federalist Society e"}
{"id": "523495201", "date": "2017-04-12", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How One Man Brought Justices Roberts, Alito And Gorsuch To The Supreme Court", "question_index": 11, "text": "I like the way you put that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he was not the main person doing the so-called murder boards, you know, preparing Gorsuch to not answer questions, as he did during the..."}
{"id": "523495201", "date": "2017-04-12", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How One Man Brought Justices Roberts, Alito And Gorsuch To The Supreme Court", "question_index": 12, "text": "So you give a lot of credit to Leonard Leo for the nominations of Justices Alito and Roberts. What was his role in those nominations and confirmations?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Senate Judiciary Committee. His role was more coordinating the various conservative groups who were supporting Gorsuch, who were, you know, the Judicial Crisis Network, which is, you know, which ra"}
{"id": "523495201", "date": "2017-04-12", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How One Man Brought Justices Roberts, Alito And Gorsuch To The Supreme Court", "question_index": 13, "text": "So Leonard Leo played a crucial role in the appointment of three Supreme Court justices - Alito, Roberts and now Gorsuch. Is that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was really very similar, except there was - he didn't prepare a list of potential nominees. The White House did that themselves. But certainly, his role was similar when it came to mobilizing"}
{"id": "523495201", "date": "2017-04-12", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How One Man Brought Justices Roberts, Alito And Gorsuch To The Supreme Court", "question_index": 14, "text": "Is that an unusual amount of power...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Pretty good, huh?"}
{"id": "523495201", "date": "2017-04-12", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How One Man Brought Justices Roberts, Alito And Gorsuch To The Supreme Court", "question_index": 15, "text": "...For one man?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Three..."}
{"id": "523495201", "date": "2017-04-12", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How One Man Brought Justices Roberts, Alito And Gorsuch To The Supreme Court", "question_index": 16, "text": "And it's conceivable that Donald Trump would have three more vacancies to fill because three of the justices are...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's pretty amazing to me. I mean, I - you know, I was only sort of midway through my reporting on the piece and I said to myself, oh, my God. This guy has - is, like, responsible for a third of the S"}
{"id": "523495201", "date": "2017-04-12", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How One Man Brought Justices Roberts, Alito And Gorsuch To The Supreme Court", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yeah, in their late 70s or 80s. Ruth Bader Ginsburg...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Old is the word you're looking for."}
{"id": "523495201", "date": "2017-04-12", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How One Man Brought Justices Roberts, Alito And Gorsuch To The Supreme Court", "question_index": 18, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Is 84. Anthony Kennedy is 80. Stephen Breyer is 78."}
{"id": "523495201", "date": "2017-04-12", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How One Man Brought Justices Roberts, Alito And Gorsuch To The Supreme Court", "question_index": 19, "text": "So there used to be this expression - there should be no litmus test for the Supreme Court. But President Trump said he'd choose a pro-life judge, but Neil Gorsuch wouldn't speak to his views on abortion, though people deduce that he is against it. So, like, what does the litmus test - does anybody believe anymore that there's no litmus test?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, you know, when I - when you talk about 84, Terry, 84 is not the new anything. Eighty-four is old. And, you know, Ruth Ginsburg is a tough, tough woman. But, you know, the actuarial tables start t"}
{"id": "523495201", "date": "2017-04-12", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How One Man Brought Justices Roberts, Alito And Gorsuch To The Supreme Court", "question_index": 20, "text": "My guest is Jeffrey Toobin. His article, \"The Conservative Pipeline To The Supreme Court,\" is in the current issue of The New Yorker. After a break, we'll talk about the conservative legal movement's reading of the Constitution, which strictly limits the powers of government, and how that affects issues like environmental regulation, affirmative action and LGBTQ rights. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, see, now we're getting - I think - I mean, this is really the heart of the matter. I mean, which is like, well, what are - what is Neil Gorsuch going to do on the Supreme Court? Why was he appoi"}
{"id": "523495201", "date": "2017-04-12", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How One Man Brought Justices Roberts, Alito And Gorsuch To The Supreme Court", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross, back with Jeffrey Toobin, a staff writer for The New Yorker and CNN's senior legal analyst. His latest piece in The New Yorker, \"The Conservative Pipeline To The Supreme Court,\" is about The Federalist Society, a nationwide group of conservative lawyers, and its executive vice president, Leonard Leo. Toobin writes that Leo served in effect as president Trump's subcontractor on the selection of Neil Gorsuch to serve on the Supreme Court. Leo also played a crucial part in the nominations of Justices John Roberts and Samuel Alito, which means, Toobin says, that Leo is responsible, to a considerable extent, for a third of the Supreme Court. When we left off, Toobin was explaining why he thinks that Justice Gorsuch will at every opportunity vote to overturn Roe v. Wade. You write that the possibility of Leo choosing a judge who supported the right to have an abortion is inconceivable, that he's dedicated to overturning Roe. Why is he dedicated to overturning Roe?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, see, now we're getting - I think - I mean, this is really the heart of the matter. I mean, which is like, well, what are - what is Neil Gorsuch going to do on the Supreme Court? Why was he appoi"}
{"id": "523495201", "date": "2017-04-12", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How One Man Brought Justices Roberts, Alito And Gorsuch To The Supreme Court", "question_index": 22, "text": "He also has a child with spina bifida, which is a birth defect in which the spinal canal remains open at birth.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think there are a combination of reasons. In part, he is an originalist. He - in the mold of Justice Scalia and in simple terms, he thinks that the Constitution should be interpreted as the me"}
{"id": "523495201", "date": "2017-04-12", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How One Man Brought Justices Roberts, Alito And Gorsuch To The Supreme Court", "question_index": 23, "text": "And - but his daughter died as a result of the (unintelligible).", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. He had two - his two - it's really a remarkably sad story. His daughter..."}
{"id": "523495201", "date": "2017-04-12", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How One Man Brought Justices Roberts, Alito And Gorsuch To The Supreme Court", "question_index": 24, "text": "Yeah. Do you think that shaped his views on abortion?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "His daughter died at age 14 of spina bifida."}
{"id": "523495201", "date": "2017-04-12", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How One Man Brought Justices Roberts, Alito And Gorsuch To The Supreme Court", "question_index": 25, "text": "So since The Federalist Society and its executive vice president, Leonard Leo, seem to have such sway in who Republican presidents choose as Supreme Court nominees, when you describe The Federalist Society as a conservative judicial group, like, where do they fit in the spectrum of conservatism? Are the members kind of varied across the spectrum of conservative beliefs, or are they more in the middle or more to the right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely. All his friends told me that, that this is a child with a very substantial disability, spina bifida, as well as other medical problems. And the notion that a child with genetic disorde"}
{"id": "523495201", "date": "2017-04-12", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How One Man Brought Justices Roberts, Alito And Gorsuch To The Supreme Court", "question_index": 26, "text": "So there's variation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, it's a big group, so there are a lot of different people in it."}
{"id": "523495201", "date": "2017-04-12", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How One Man Brought Justices Roberts, Alito And Gorsuch To The Supreme Court", "question_index": 27, "text": "Give us an example of what kind of laws and decisions we'd be talking about.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But there are variations. But I think it is certainly on the right of the party overall, and Neil Gorsuch is on the right of the party. And let me give you an example because this is something that wa"}
{"id": "523495201", "date": "2017-04-12", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How One Man Brought Justices Roberts, Alito And Gorsuch To The Supreme Court", "question_index": 28, "text": "My guest is Jeffrey Toobin. His latest article in The New Yorker is called \"The Conservative Pipeline to the Supreme Court.\" We'll be back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Environmental laws. Congress writes laws - the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act - but they're, necessarily, very broad laws. And they delegate the powers to administrative agencies to enforce those "}
{"id": "523495201", "date": "2017-04-12", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How One Man Brought Justices Roberts, Alito And Gorsuch To The Supreme Court", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Jeffrey Toobin. He's a staff writer for The New Yorker and senior legal analyst for CNN. His latest article, \"The Conservative Pipeline To The Supreme Court,\" is about Leonard Leo, a longtime executive vice president of The Federalist Society. And Toobin says that Leo served, in effect, as President Trump's subcontractor on the selection of Neil Gorsuch and also played a crucial part in the nominations of John Roberts and Samuel Alito to the Supreme Court. You know, we've been talking about The Federalist Society, a conservative judicial group that has a lot of sway and has played a very major role in the appointment of the last three Supreme Court justices. Is there a Democratic, liberal counterpart to The Federalist Society?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Environmental laws. Congress writes laws - the Clean Air Act, the Clean Water Act - but they're, necessarily, very broad laws. And they delegate the powers to administrative agencies to enforce those "}
{"id": "523495201", "date": "2017-04-12", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How One Man Brought Justices Roberts, Alito And Gorsuch To The Supreme Court", "question_index": 30, "text": "And the conservatives, as you're describing it, are organizing around a judicial philosophy in the court, that encompasses so many political", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, there is. And it was founded in direct response to The Federalist Society. It was founded right after the Supreme Court's decision in Bush v. Gore in 2000, when the court effectively handed that "}
{"id": "523495201", "date": "2017-04-12", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How One Man Brought Justices Roberts, Alito And Gorsuch To The Supreme Court", "question_index": 31, "text": "- so many political issues...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, there is. And it was founded in direct response to The Federalist Society. It was founded right after the Supreme Court's decision in Bush v. Gore in 2000, when the court effectively handed that "}
{"id": "523495201", "date": "2017-04-12", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How One Man Brought Justices Roberts, Alito And Gorsuch To The Supreme Court", "question_index": 32, "text": "...As opposed to mobilizing around each issue.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "523495201", "date": "2017-04-12", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How One Man Brought Justices Roberts, Alito And Gorsuch To The Supreme Court", "question_index": 33, "text": "And LGBTQ issues. Yeah...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. I left out race, which is obviously something that a lot of liberals care about and the NAACP..."}
{"id": "523495201", "date": "2017-04-12", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How One Man Brought Justices Roberts, Alito And Gorsuch To The Supreme Court", "question_index": 34, "text": "So what are some of the cases that will be coming before the Supreme Court in the early days of Neil Gorsuch being on the bench?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, LGBTQ issues, of course. I mean, it's just - it's, I mean, you and I have come up with half a dozen very quickly that are all very significant forces within the Democratic coalition, but they ar"}
{"id": "523495201", "date": "2017-04-12", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How One Man Brought Justices Roberts, Alito And Gorsuch To The Supreme Court", "question_index": 35, "text": "As part of its health care coverage.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, certainly, the one that will probably attract the most attention - and it's not clear that it will get to the Supreme Court in the next month or so, although it well might - is Donald Trump's ex"}
{"id": "523495201", "date": "2017-04-12", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How One Man Brought Justices Roberts, Alito And Gorsuch To The Supreme Court", "question_index": 36, "text": "How much do you know about Neil Gorsuch's religious views and how, if at all, they've shaped his judicial opinions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As part of its health care coverage. They said that certain forms of birth control, they regarded as tantamount to abortion, so they wouldn't fund it. This is - and Gorsuch wrote the lower court opini"}
{"id": "523495201", "date": "2017-04-12", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How One Man Brought Justices Roberts, Alito And Gorsuch To The Supreme Court", "question_index": 37, "text": "Well, Jeffrey Toobin, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I don't know a lot about his religious views. He was raised a Catholic, as I understand it. But he married a British woman, who belonged to the Church of England, Anglican Church. And as a r"}
{"id": "523495201", "date": "2017-04-12", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How One Man Brought Justices Roberts, Alito And Gorsuch To The Supreme Court", "question_index": 38, "text": "Jeffrey Toobin's article \"The Conservative Pipeline To The Supreme Court\" is in the current edition of The New Yorker. He's a staff writer for the magazine and senior legal analyst for CNN. After we take a short break, Ken Tucker will review an album of biblical psalms set to music by country singer Jessi Colter and guitarist Lenny Kaye. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks, Terry."}
{"id": "523717152", "date": "2017-04-13", "guest": "David Owen", "title": "How Can The Colorado River Continue To Support 36 Million People In 7 States?", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Loud concerts, power tools, construction work - they're affecting people's hearing. Hearing loss isn't just a problem for older people. In a few minutes, we're going to talk about some of the new high-tech ways of dealing with it. That's the subject of the latest New Yorker article by my guest, David Owen, who is a staff writer for the magazine. He's also a contributing editor at Golf Digest, which is how he got to play golf with Donald Trump. We'll talk about that, too. But we're going to start with the subject of Owen's new book, \"Where The Water Goes,\" about the Colorado River. The river and its tributaries supply water to over 36 million people in seven states - Colorado, Wyoming, Utah, New Mexico, Nevada, Arizona and California - and irrigates close to 6 million acres of farmland. Owen writes about the engineering feats that make all that possible and the legal and environmental battles surrounding the river. The Colorado River is so overtaxed that by the time it reaches the U.S.-Mexico border it's dry. David Owen, welcome to FRESH AIR. So can you give us a kind of overview sense of the manmade things that have been done to control and disseminate water from the Colorado through the West?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "523717152", "date": "2017-04-13", "guest": "David Owen", "title": "How Can The Colorado River Continue To Support 36 Million People In 7 States?", "question_index": 1, "text": "The plan for dividing the water among the seven river states - Wyoming, Colorado, Utah, New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, California - that was written up in 1922. You seem to think it's a pretty bad agreement. What makes it so bad?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When you look at the Colorado River, it's not a big river. It's done these amazing things. It carved the Grand Canyon. But it's not - it's not broad. It's not like the Mississippi. The Mississippi is "}
{"id": "523717152", "date": "2017-04-13", "guest": "David Owen", "title": "How Can The Colorado River Continue To Support 36 Million People In 7 States?", "question_index": 2, "text": "So how has the world and how has the population in the West changed since 1922 in ways that might make that agreement kind of out-of-date?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Everybody thinks it's both a bad agreement and a good agreement. It's bad because it divided up the river at a time when people thought the river contained a lot more water than it actually does. It's"}
{"id": "523717152", "date": "2017-04-13", "guest": "David Owen", "title": "How Can The Colorado River Continue To Support 36 Million People In 7 States?", "question_index": 3, "text": "So you point out some pretty interesting paradoxes about water conservation, things that are pretty counterintuitive. And you write, like, waste is actually a kind of reservoir. Please explain what you mean.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in lots of ways. There are many more people than anybody imagined in 1922. Some of the biggest, fastest-growing cities in the country are cities that depend on water from that river. Some of the"}
{"id": "523717152", "date": "2017-04-13", "guest": "David Owen", "title": "How Can The Colorado River Continue To Support 36 Million People In 7 States?", "question_index": 4, "text": "To me, one of the most remarkable chapters of your book has to do with something called Project Rulison in 1969, just, like, three weeks after Woodstock, when a nuclear weapon with more than twice the power of the Hiroshima bomb was used in a test to see if nuclear devices could be used basically for fracking, to break up rock and - you know, and release natural gas. How did you find out about this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If you overwater your lawn, if you use too much water inside your house, you have a buffer if - when things go wrong, if everything dries up. You can stop watering your lawn in a drought. You can cut "}
{"id": "523717152", "date": "2017-04-13", "guest": "David Owen", "title": "How Can The Colorado River Continue To Support 36 Million People In 7 States?", "question_index": 5, "text": "Well, let's play a document about this. You mention in the book that there's a film that was made, like, a little documentary explaining the project, a little seven-minute film. And it's on YouTube. And sure enough I found it. So let's hear this section of this little explanatory film about Project Rulison.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- you would think that they could have anticipated the problems that they had, one of which was that you then end up with radioactive natural gas. And yet the government tried this not just once in Ru"}
{"id": "523717152", "date": "2017-04-13", "guest": "David Owen", "title": "How Can The Colorado River Continue To Support 36 Million People In 7 States?", "question_index": 6, "text": "OK. So it's remarkable to me, David, that this was being kind of promoted, this use of an atomic weapon more than twice as powerful as the bomb was dropped on Hiroshima to free up natural gas, that this was promoted as something that would be efficient and economical", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is a cross-section of the Rulison field. Detonation point is about 8,500 feet beneath the surface ground zero. This is how the device is expected to stimulate gas production in the Rulison field."}
{"id": "523717152", "date": "2017-04-13", "guest": "David Owen", "title": "How Can The Colorado River Continue To Support 36 Million People In 7 States?", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is a cross-section of the Rulison field. Detonation point is about 8,500 feet beneath the surface ground zero. This is how the device is expected to stimulate gas production in the Rulison field."}
{"id": "523717152", "date": "2017-04-13", "guest": "David Owen", "title": "How Can The Colorado River Continue To Support 36 Million People In 7 States?", "question_index": 8, "text": "OK. So this nuclear test - how close was it to the Colorado River?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It was a - if you ever think that that nothing changes over the years, just watch this film, and you think, you know, this wasn't all that long ago. And the idea of anybody proposing anything li"}
{"id": "523717152", "date": "2017-04-13", "guest": "David Owen", "title": "How Can The Colorado River Continue To Support 36 Million People In 7 States?", "question_index": 9, "text": "In the voiceover of that little film we heard an excerpt of, the announcer says that radiation will be trapped within, you know, within the area of the explosion. Did it work out that way? Was it trapped as predicted?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was pretty close. It was just within just a few miles, and the government continues to monitor the site. And they've never found radioactivity at the surface or in the streams around. But it's just"}
{"id": "523717152", "date": "2017-04-13", "guest": "David Owen", "title": "How Can The Colorado River Continue To Support 36 Million People In 7 States?", "question_index": 10, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is David Owen. He's a staff writer for The New Yorker and author of the new book \"Where The Water Goes: Life And Death Along The Colorado River.\" Going to take a short break and then we'll be back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You could stand on the spot and not be in danger of being irradiated, but it didn't do what they hoped it would do which was to all sort of be - become trapped inside melted rocks so that it did"}
{"id": "523717152", "date": "2017-04-13", "guest": "David Owen", "title": "How Can The Colorado River Continue To Support 36 Million People In 7 States?", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us my guest is David Owen, a staff writer for The New Yorker and author of the new book \"Where The Water Goes Life And Death Along The Colorado River.\" So you've said that you learn some of what you know about water while writing on assignment for Golf Digest. I will use that as a segue from your water book...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You could stand on the spot and not be in danger of being irradiated, but it didn't do what they hoped it would do which was to all sort of be - become trapped inside melted rocks so that it did"}
{"id": "523717152", "date": "2017-04-13", "guest": "David Owen", "title": "How Can The Colorado River Continue To Support 36 Million People In 7 States?", "question_index": 12, "text": "...Yes. To The New Yorker piece you wrote in January about golfing with Donald Trump, and you had golfed with him five years earlier on one of his courses in West Palm Beach near Mar-a-Lago, I imagine. And what was the occasion for golfing with him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know where you're going."}
{"id": "523717152", "date": "2017-04-13", "guest": "David Owen", "title": "How Can The Colorado River Continue To Support 36 Million People In 7 States?", "question_index": 13, "text": "Oh, you're kidding", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the golf world maybe even still thinks of Trump as a potential benefactor because Trump is probably the most prominent rich person who believes - still believes in investing in golf courses an"}
{"id": "523717152", "date": "2017-04-13", "guest": "David Owen", "title": "How Can The Colorado River Continue To Support 36 Million People In 7 States?", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the golf world maybe even still thinks of Trump as a potential benefactor because Trump is probably the most prominent rich person who believes - still believes in investing in golf courses an"}
{"id": "523717152", "date": "2017-04-13", "guest": "David Owen", "title": "How Can The Colorado River Continue To Support 36 Million People In 7 States?", "question_index": 15, "text": "That would have been so embarrassing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- I slipped it into my pocket, and we went in and had lunch. But it was a close call."}
{"id": "523717152", "date": "2017-04-13", "guest": "David Owen", "title": "How Can The Colorado River Continue To Support 36 Million People In 7 States?", "question_index": 16, "text": "How did the man that you golfed with compare with the president you're watching on TV?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Maybe he - although if, you know, it's - I think it's almost - one nice thing about Trump is it's almost impossible to embarrass yourself with him. He - my - when we had lunch, my cell phone rang, and"}
{"id": "523717152", "date": "2017-04-13", "guest": "David Owen", "title": "How Can The Colorado River Continue To Support 36 Million People In 7 States?", "question_index": 17, "text": "Was Trump a good golfer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very much the same. And if I'd had any idea, you know, five years ago, it seemed inconceivable that what has happened could happen. But you see very much, you know, people say to me, you know, isn't h"}
{"id": "523717152", "date": "2017-04-13", "guest": "David Owen", "title": "How Can The Colorado River Continue To Support 36 Million People In 7 States?", "question_index": 18, "text": "So who had the better score?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He is a good golfer. I think he's almost certainly, of all the golf playing presidents we've had, he's probably the best. Golf Digest ranked the golf-playing presidents at one point. And it made Dwigh"}
{"id": "523717152", "date": "2017-04-13", "guest": "David Owen", "title": "How Can The Colorado River Continue To Support 36 Million People In 7 States?", "question_index": 19, "text": "My guest is David Owen, a staff writer at The New Yorker and author of the new book \"Where The Water Goes.\" After a break, we'll talk about his New Yorker article on high-tech help for people with hearing loss. And we'll hear from \"Saturday Night Live\" cast member Sasheer Zamata. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He did. He played better than I did. But it was interesting, when the article came out, he called me on my cellphone. And it was it was kind of a surreal experience. I was standing in the cemetery at "}
{"id": "523717152", "date": "2017-04-13", "guest": "David Owen", "title": "How Can The Colorado River Continue To Support 36 Million People In 7 States?", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross back with David Owen, author of the new book \"Where The Water Goes\" about the Colorado River. He's also a staff writer for The New Yorker. Your latest piece in The New Yorker is called \"High-Tech Hope For The Hard Of Hearing.\" And lots of people have hearing problems now because of rock concerts, street noise, power tools, age. And you have a problem with hearing. Would you describe your hearing for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He did. He played better than I did. But it was interesting, when the article came out, he called me on my cellphone. And it was it was kind of a surreal experience. I was standing in the cemetery at "}
{"id": "523717152", "date": "2017-04-13", "guest": "David Owen", "title": "How Can The Colorado River Continue To Support 36 Million People In 7 States?", "question_index": 21, "text": "So scientists have re-evaluated some of their assumptions about what causes most hearing impairment. What's one of those changes underway now in understanding hearing loss?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. My ears ring. It's a problem called tinnitus. It's a high-pitched sound. It reminds me of the cicadas that I listened to when I was falling asleep during my youth in Kansas City. It's there all t"}
{"id": "523717152", "date": "2017-04-13", "guest": "David Owen", "title": "How Can The Colorado River Continue To Support 36 Million People In 7 States?", "question_index": 22, "text": "It seems like there have been so many breakthroughs in terms of eyes. There's cataract surgery. There's surgery to repair impaired vision. You can get your eyes corrected more or less permanently instead of wearing glasses. But it's been much more difficult to make those kind of breakthroughs in terms of hearing. Why is it so much more difficult with hearing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's been a discovery within the past decade or so that - what's referred to usually as hidden hearing loss. And it's not really a different cause. It's, you know, still things like noise and exces"}
{"id": "523717152", "date": "2017-04-13", "guest": "David Owen", "title": "How Can The Colorado River Continue To Support 36 Million People In 7 States?", "question_index": 23, "text": "What are some of the breakthroughs that have happened already or are on the horizon?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hearing is hard. When you look at the inner workings of this system, it's amazing that any of us can still hear at all. These tiny, tiny, tiny, super sensitive cells that can be affected by an enormou"}
{"id": "523717152", "date": "2017-04-13", "guest": "David Owen", "title": "How Can The Colorado River Continue To Support 36 Million People In 7 States?", "question_index": 24, "text": "Well, David, I want to thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, scientists have figured - you know, there are many animals, non-mammals that actually do regenerate the parts of their hearing systems that get damaged. It was first discovered in chickens about"}
{"id": "523717152", "date": "2017-04-13", "guest": "David Owen", "title": "How Can The Colorado River Continue To Support 36 Million People In 7 States?", "question_index": 25, "text": "David Owen's article about high-tech help for people with hearing impairment was published in The New Yorker. He's a staff writer for the magazine. His new book about the Colorado River is called \"Where The Water Goes.\" After a short break, we'll hear from \"Saturday Night Live\" cast member Sasheer Zamata. She has a new stand-up special. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, Terry, thank you."}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 0, "text": "Christopher Eccleston, welcome to FRESH AIR. First I want to talk with you about a series that you're known for in the U.S., the HBO series \"The Leftovers.\" And this is a series that starts when there's some kind of event when about 2 percent of the world's population just vanishes, and no one really knows whether this is - is this a religious event, like the rapture or is this some kind of supernatural, inexplicable event? And so, you know, people are just unhinged and, like, new religions are starting up because nobody believes in the old ones anymore. Other people are getting more committed to their older religions. You play a minister who believes that the great departure, as it's known, isn't an act of God because bad people, people who were, you know - people who have done bad things vanish. So if it was the rapture, only good people would have been lifted up to heaven. So you've been going around trying to, like, prove to people that people have disappeared. There are some bad people there. So...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies in for Terry Gross. Our guest, actor Christopher Eccleston, co-stars in the HBO series \"The Leftovers.\" He plays a minister coming to grips with the aftermath of an "}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 1, "text": "Right. And he's become - he's tried to become more deeply committed to his faith and to hold onto his church.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And buried in that, of course, is his own ego that, I mean - basically, what he believes is if it would have been the rapture, he would have been taken because he believes himself to be such a faithfu"}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 2, "text": "But he's a little unhinged", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 3, "text": "- a little unhinged, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 4, "text": "Well, there's a great Job scene, and you walked us right into it. So let's hear that scene. So your character, the Reverend Matt Jamison, has gone to a town that has been spared from the great departure. Nobody in this town vanished, and it's now considered a sacred, holy safe space. And so he and his wife have managed to become residents there. And she's in a kind of vegetative state. Ever since the day of the departure, she's been neither here nor there. She's been physically on Earth with her eyes open during the day, but there's absolutely nothing that registers on her. So he has taken her in a car in a wheelchair to the doctor and had to leave this special town to do it. And on the way back, he and his wife are mugged. Their wristband, which is their ID to get back into town, is stolen from them. And so he's trying to get back into town with his wife, who's in a wheelchair. And he can't do it. And the only way he can do it is through this smuggler who says, for $500, I can smuggle you back into this town. He doesn't have the money. But your character sees a woman standing next to a Winnebago with a big cross on it. So he decides - being a reverend, he decides to approach her and ask her for help. She's played by Brett Butler. Her name - the character's name is Sandy. Here's the scene, and my guest, who you'll hear in the scene, is Christopher Eccleston.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He initially goes through a great spiritual crisis, but then lights upon the idea that he is Job of the Bible and the chosen one in that the Lord has chosen him to punish him in order to test hi"}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 5, "text": "That's my guest Christopher Eccleston in a scene from the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Matt Jamison) Good thing I didn't say Lutheran."}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yeah. And later in this episode, to further punish yourself in a Job-like way, you climb onto a rooftop...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She's such a sensational actress."}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 7, "text": "...And put yourself naked in a pillory.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 8, "text": "Yeah, just a kind of bizarre scene. But, anyways, I know that you're agnostic or atheist. I'm not sure which way you identify.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "On the top of a taco stand. Yeah."}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 9, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I'm no longer sure now. I'd certainly made great play a number of years ago about my atheism. And things have changed in my life."}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 10, "text": "Really? Can you talk about what's changed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I know - I'm no longer so certain. I - so I guess I would have to say agnostic now."}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 11, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, children. I had children. I have two very beautiful and center-of-my-life children, Albert and Esme. I lost my father. I watched him suffer through his dementia. I had my own crisis earlier in the"}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 12, "text": "So is having witnessed your children's birth and early development and your father's death made you feel the need to believe in something or feel the presence of something in your life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And maybe some of the issues in \"The Leftovers,\" my relationship with Damon Lindelof, the showrunner - remember we had a - quite a discussion on faith. He claims that I said that - because Matt Jamiso"}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 13, "text": "It's interesting that playing a part in \"The Leftovers\" is one of the contributing things that led you in that direction.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just feel that when I was stomping around saying I was an atheist, I was not thinking about it enough. I think I was - I mean, there is certainly a huge part of me that feels intense anger against o"}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 14, "text": "Did reading the Book of Job also make you think about religion?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Matt's - the complexity of Matt Jamison's reactions to events in his life..."}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 15, "text": "Because I know you best from \"The Leftovers,\" when I hear your voice in my head, until seeing \"The A Word,\" I thought of you as having an American accent, which, of course, you don't", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview with actor Christopher Eccleston, who co-stars in the HBO series \"The Leftovers.\" Its third and final season premieres Sunday. He also co-stars i"}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview with actor Christopher Eccleston, who co-stars in the HBO series \"The Leftovers.\" Its third and final season premieres Sunday. He also co-stars i"}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 17, "text": "You're from the U.K.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no."}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 18, "text": "And now I'm hearing you on \"The A Word.\" But is the accent you use on \"The A Word\" the same way that you're speaking to us now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's correct, yeah."}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 19, "text": "And he worked in factories, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes. I come from Salford, which is right next door to Manchester, famous, among other things, for producing Albert Finney and Mike Leigh. And so I have a Salford accent, which has been softened o"}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 20, "text": "In England.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He did. He worked in an American factory..."}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Colgate - yes, in Trafford Park in Salford - the Colgate-Palmolive. They called it Soapworks, but it did much more than soap - toothpaste, deodorant, et cetera, shampoo, washing-up liquid. And that's "}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 22, "text": "Is that an accurate diagnosis", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I said to..."}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 23, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I said to..."}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 24, "text": "So when you're playing an American, as you do in \"The Leftovers...\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, absolutely accurate. And I said to my mom, how did you know that he fancied you? How do you know that he was interested in you? And she said, well, as the lift - as he backed - he reversed into "}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 25, "text": "...What do you think of as being the distinctive characteristics of American speech?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 26, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "American speech - a very good question. Well, first of all, you locate it very specifically. And I was - you know, I spoke to Damon about that. Damon was very funny on day one because I stay in the ac"}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 27, "text": "So you've spoken in the British press about how actors with working-class accents are being shut out of certain roles. Do you feel like your accent has shut you out of roles?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I love him for that. I'll never forget that. And my accent has improved over the three seasons. It was shaky in season one. It got much more secure in season two, and it's - I believe will be even bet"}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 28, "text": "I see.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, really it's more about over the last 10 years. The arts policies in our country has meant that people from working-class backgrounds are not getting the places at drama schools. We are not produ"}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 29, "text": "So you said...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was what I was saying. And consequently, you know, the - our culture is - you know, all the actors are white, male and middle class, which is not good for the culture. That's what that's about. A"}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 30, "text": "...This is something that's happened in the past 10 years. What's changed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So..."}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 31, "text": "How do you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A conservative government does not help at all. They are overly concerned with the welfare of white middle-class males. And they are not particular - they don't see culture, theater, film, television,"}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 32, "text": "How do you think Brexit is going to affect the arts in England and in Europe in general?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The arts are just kind of a nice diversion with a bottle of wine, rather than something hugely important in understanding society and life."}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 33, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a - Brexit was an absolute disaster, and I am deeply ashamed of my country. It's a disaster. It's the isolationism. It's Little Englander. You will note that Scotland and Ireland voted to remain."}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 34, "text": "Well, good luck to you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know..."}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 35, "text": "Let me...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 36, "text": "So at the beginning of that scene, is that you doing your best at singing, or are you singing in character?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Maurice Scott) I'm kind of wishing this conversation had been about a ukulele."}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 37, "text": "And did you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's an interesting question. I had listened to it, and I thought, I can sing better than that. No, I don't know, maybe I was doing my best."}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 38, "text": "Did you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thought I sounded a lot better on the day."}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 39, "text": "That song is \"If You Could Read My Mind.\" What is it about...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I love that song, Gordon Lightfoot. I love - that scene was really the scene that made me desperate to play the part more than any other. I just loved him, that man singing that song."}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 40, "text": "...That song that you think is so right for that character?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 41, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's so wrong for that character, actually, I think..."}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 42, "text": "So I figure your character is taking singing lessons for a reason. And in my mind - I haven't seen the whole first season yet. In my mind, it's going to lead somewhere and maybe not just to an affair with the teacher. Because his grandchild is on the autistic spectrum and is obsessed with music, I'm seeing a possible bond here", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"...If You Could Read My Mind\" because it's so romantic and expressed and heartfelt, and he has problems with that kind of thing."}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 43, "text": "between the grandchild...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"...If You Could Read My Mind\" because it's so romantic and expressed and heartfelt, and he has problems with that kind of thing."}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 44, "text": "...And the singing teacher and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I..."}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 45, "text": "His brewery.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that's true, but I think it's unconscious. It wasn't plotted. I mean, one of the key things about Maurice is that he is in the early stages of grief for his wife, who he lost to cancer within "}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 46, "text": "Oh no.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "accidentally stumbles on this music teacher, who - myself and Pooky Quesnel, who played the role, decided that she had been a friend of Maurice's wife. That's how the connection was made. And incident"}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 47, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "accidentally stumbles on this music teacher, who - myself and Pooky Quesnel, who played the role, decided that she had been a friend of Maurice's wife. That's how the connection was made. And incident"}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 48, "text": "So you've already had a relationship", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And we've retained our friendship for over a 35-year period."}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 49, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And we've retained our friendship for over a 35-year period."}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 50, "text": "As you've pointed out, your character in \"The A Word\" is not very expressive.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it was chaste. It was a chaste sweetheart relationship. But it's grown into this extraordinary friendship. And when we were given the opportunity to work together, for the second time, actually,"}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 51, "text": "And now he's learned that his grandson is on the autistic spectrum...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 52, "text": "...Which he's kind of suspected. You know, he suspected something was wrong. And he's trying so hard to relate to the grandson, but he doesn't really know how. And they're not quite connecting. What's it like acting with a 5-year-old or a 6-year-old who's playing somebody with autism? And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 53, "text": "...I may say is doing a great job at it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 54, "text": "Yeah. And as a character, you're trying to get the boy to engage, and yet this young actor has to not engage with you. So it must be really tricky for you when you're trying so hard to engage him, knowing that it's the young actor's job to just disconnect and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's an extraordinary challenge for that boy, and he's done a great job. It does take patience because his - obviously his concentration levels and spans are not that of an adult, an adult-train"}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 55, "text": "...And be in another world...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, to disconnect."}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 56, "text": "...Be in another wavelength.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right, yeah."}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 57, "text": "Maurice is your character, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean, Maurice is making the classic mistake, which I actually made..."}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 58, "text": "You've mentioned during this interview that your father had dementia during the last 13 years or 14 years of his life. And it was diagnosed as vascular dementia. Is that something different from Alzheimer's?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're listening to Terry's interview with actor Christopher Eccleston, who co-stars in the HBO series \"The Leftovers.\" Its third and final season premieres Sunday. He also co-stars "}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 59, "text": "When things happen like your father throwing you out of the house because he didn't recognize you, he didn't believe that you were his son, how did you learn to deal with things like that? Because you can't logically convince him that you are his son. I mean, if he has dementia...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I believe it is. I think you - it manifests itself - Alzheimer's, as I understand it - and my understanding is somewhat rudimentary - Alzheimer's, what you often find with people suffering from A"}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 60, "text": "...Logic isn't going to work. So what did you do? How did you approach that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 61, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You make mistakes. I took my mother and father, again, to Cornwall for a break. And I was sat with my father, and we were doing a crossword, which myself and my father had done since a very young age."}
{"id": "523764266", "date": "2017-04-14", "guest": "Christopher Eccleston", "title": "For Christopher Eccleston, Co-Starring On 'The Leftovers' Meant Rethinking His Faith", "question_index": 62, "text": "Well, Christopher Eccleston, I love your acting. And it's just been a real pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much. And thank you for sharing so much of your life with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I - from that moment on, I understood that I cannot impose reality on my father. I cannot bring him into my world. I have to go into his. So I stopped calling him dad. I would call him mate or pal"}
{"id": "542390784", "date": "2017-08-09", "guest": "Jessica Nutik Zitter", "title": "A Physician Explores 'A Better Path' To The End Of Life", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest is a critical care and palliative care physician who is among the health care professionals trying to find a more humane approach to helping people as they reach the ends of their lives. Dr. Jessica Nutik Zitter wants to help patients avoid what she describes as the end-of-life conveyor belt, where they are intubated, catheterized and die attached to machines, frequently without even knowing they're dying. As a critical care doctor, it's her job to save lives. As a palliative care doctor, it's her job to decrease physical and emotional suffering. Some people see those two jobs as being at odds with each other. She doesn't. She works at a public hospital in Oakland, Calif. She's the author of the book \"Extreme Measures: Finding A Better Path To The End Of Life.\" And she's the subject of the Netflix documentary \"Extremis.\" Jessica Nutik Zitter, welcome to FRESH AIR. You practice critical care and palliative medicine. Why is that considered unusual?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "542390784", "date": "2017-08-09", "guest": "Jessica Nutik Zitter", "title": "A Physician Explores 'A Better Path' To The End Of Life", "question_index": 1, "text": "No, no, you got to tell this story because you tell this story in your book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, hopefully it's becoming less unusual. And I'm meeting more and more people who are doing it. And I'm thrilled for that. I'm seeing definite changes in that. But you know, critical care - I mean "}
{"id": "542390784", "date": "2017-08-09", "guest": "Jessica Nutik Zitter", "title": "A Physician Explores 'A Better Path' To The End Of Life", "question_index": 2, "text": "You were supposed to insert a dialysis catheter into the neck of a patient with metastatic breast cancer. And I take it that's a very painful procedure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "542390784", "date": "2017-08-09", "guest": "Jessica Nutik Zitter", "title": "A Physician Explores 'A Better Path' To The End Of Life", "question_index": 3, "text": "But in that instance, you continued the procedure and inserted the catheter.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Painful, risky, you know, causes suffering during and after - you know, she has to lie under these drapes. Very - you know, her husband couldn't be with her. He had to go back to the waiting room. And"}
{"id": "542390784", "date": "2017-08-09", "guest": "Jessica Nutik Zitter", "title": "A Physician Explores 'A Better Path' To The End Of Life", "question_index": 4, "text": "Did the patient soon die in spite of the dialysis?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. And I certainly - as I say in the book, you know, that catheter did not change that patient's life, but it changed mine. I will never forget it."}
{"id": "542390784", "date": "2017-08-09", "guest": "Jessica Nutik Zitter", "title": "A Physician Explores 'A Better Path' To The End Of Life", "question_index": 5, "text": "So you tell a story in your book about a patient. And the decision had to be made about whether to send her for palliative care or to do a major intervention. And she was, you know, an older woman. She was an Auschwitz survivor and not only that. Like, she was the only person in her family to survive. She and her twin sister had been the subject of experiments done by the famous sadistic Nazi doctor, Dr. Mengele. Her sister did not survive those experiments, but your patient did. So what were you presented with in the final days of her life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, she died the next day. Yeah, she died the next day. I mean - and you know, wasn't surprising to anybody."}
{"id": "542390784", "date": "2017-08-09", "guest": "Jessica Nutik Zitter", "title": "A Physician Explores 'A Better Path' To The End Of Life", "question_index": 6, "text": "Once a patient is on a ventilator, is it hard to take them off of it? Like, say you know that they would die if they're taken off of it. How hard is it for the family or for the patient themselves to give the directive, like, stop. It will end life, but make it stop.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was such a constellation of strange events. I was called in by the team to see this patient. And they said, look; you know, she's - she has no family. She's really deteriorating. She has pneumonia,"}
{"id": "542390784", "date": "2017-08-09", "guest": "Jessica Nutik Zitter", "title": "A Physician Explores 'A Better Path' To The End Of Life", "question_index": 7, "text": "My guest is Jessica Nutik Zitter, a critical care and palliative care doctor who works at a public hospital in Oakland. She's the author of the book \"Extreme Measures.\" We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's so varied and depends on the situation. There's so many variables involved here. First of all, you know, is this patient conscious? Is this patient not conscious? Let me tell you. You know, takin"}
{"id": "542390784", "date": "2017-08-09", "guest": "Jessica Nutik Zitter", "title": "A Physician Explores 'A Better Path' To The End Of Life", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jessica Nutik Zitter, a critical care and palliative care physician. She's the author of the book \"Extreme Measures.\" What kinds of advance directives are most helpful to you as a critical care and palliative physician?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's so varied and depends on the situation. There's so many variables involved here. First of all, you know, is this patient conscious? Is this patient not conscious? Let me tell you. You know, takin"}
{"id": "542390784", "date": "2017-08-09", "guest": "Jessica Nutik Zitter", "title": "A Physician Explores 'A Better Path' To The End Of Life", "question_index": 9, "text": "Do you have an advance directive?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "An advance directive is a really static form. It's a piece of paper. It's something that has a check, literally. If you look at it, in most states, they have a checkbox that's really, really high leve"}
{"id": "542390784", "date": "2017-08-09", "guest": "Jessica Nutik Zitter", "title": "A Physician Explores 'A Better Path' To The End Of Life", "question_index": 10, "text": "So you just check the questions without writing essays attached to them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I finally do. But it took me a long time to get it - to get it written. And I carried this yellow advanced directive - you know, state of California advanced directive form with me back and forth on s"}
{"id": "542390784", "date": "2017-08-09", "guest": "Jessica Nutik Zitter", "title": "A Physician Explores 'A Better Path' To The End Of Life", "question_index": 11, "text": "That strikes me as a really difficult conversation to have with a teenage son.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no. I actually did turn in my essay. But the truth - you mean, with the advanced directive? I turned - I turned in the many pages of extra stuff. But I'll be honest with you. What really is impo"}
{"id": "542390784", "date": "2017-08-09", "guest": "Jessica Nutik Zitter", "title": "A Physician Explores 'A Better Path' To The End Of Life", "question_index": 12, "text": "How do you feel about asking your son to imagine his own death?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, once you start it, it's not as difficult as you think. What it was that was keeping me..."}
{"id": "542390784", "date": "2017-08-09", "guest": "Jessica Nutik Zitter", "title": "A Physician Explores 'A Better Path' To The End Of Life", "question_index": 13, "text": "So it's becoming more common now for critical care doctors to also be palliative care doctors. But when you started combining the two disciplines, that was considered pretty unusual. Would you explain what each position is and why some people see them as being in conflict?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I feel good about asking him to imagine it because I used to feel - and I think on some subconscious level, I feel like so many of us do that, oh, jeez, you know, if we talk about it, maybe it'll be m"}
{"id": "542390784", "date": "2017-08-09", "guest": "Jessica Nutik Zitter", "title": "A Physician Explores 'A Better Path' To The End Of Life", "question_index": 14, "text": "Jessica Nutik Zitter, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Coming in as a palliative care doctor, there was this perception that what we were focusing on was stuff that was just, you know, fluffier and less important and, you know, emotions and communication "}
{"id": "542390784", "date": "2017-08-09", "guest": "Jessica Nutik Zitter", "title": "A Physician Explores 'A Better Path' To The End Of Life", "question_index": 15, "text": "Jessica Nutik Zitter is a critical care and palliative care doctor and author of the book \"Extreme Measures.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it was such a pleasure."}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest Noah Baumbach is best known for writing and directing the films \"Frances Ha,\" \"Greenberg\" and \"The Squid And The Whale.\" His new film, \"The Meyerowitz Stories (New And Selected),\" is a comedy with a lot of real emotional pain. It's about the complicated mix of love, resentment and anger in a complicated family. It revolves around three adult siblings who share a father. The older brother and sister are from the father's second marriage. The younger brother is from the third marriage. The father, who's now on his fourth marriage, is played by Dustin Hoffman. He's a self-absorbed sculptor who believes he's an important artist who's never gotten the recognition he deserves. He never paid much attention to his first two children, Danny and Jean, played by Adam Sandler and Elizabeth Marvel, but they're the ones who still live close to him in New York and look out for him. His youngest son, Matthew, played by Ben Stiller, has moved 3,000 miles away to LA, where he's a successful money manager. He's flown back to New York to arrange for the sale of his father's house and artwork, but he hasn't told his half-siblings. When his half-brother finds out about the plan to sell the house, he's incensed. Here's Adam Sandler as Danny with Dustin Hoffman as his father and Emma Thompson as his father's fourth wife.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Noah Baumbach, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Harold Meyerowitz) She gets sensitive about these things. She feels like an outsider. She doesn't have kids of her own. I tell her, technically you're their stepmother."}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 2, "text": "So I love this movie, and it's about what so many families are like now - different sets of parents and siblings and all the opportunities that presents for more resentments and maybe sometimes more love. And I would say you're very sympathetic to all of the characters in this movie except maybe - not so much the father.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 3, "text": "How would you describe his type of narcissistic personality? And this is the character played by Dustin Hoffman, who's an artist who has, like, the upmost confidence that his work is great, under-recognized but great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 4, "text": "The Dustin Hoffman character, the father - he's a sculptor and a college teacher, and he thinks he's worthy of much more recognition than he's received. His friend L.J. has just had a museum show at the Museum of Modern Art. And so the father kind of has to convince himself and everyone else that L.J. isn't really all that talented 'cause if L.J. is that talented, he's kind of, like, a threat to the Dustin Hoffman character. At least that's how I see it. So he starts telling his son, you know, ultimately L.J. is a popular but unimportant artist. It's a disturbing commentary on the culture that truly ordinary work gets reverent reviews by the critics. I feel like you've heard that, that", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think he has the utmost confidence in a certain way, but I think there's some aspect of him, too, that feels like a failure. And I think in that way, I do have a lot of sympathy for him and lo"}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 5, "text": ", like, you've almost, like, borrowed that from things you've read or heard people say.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think he has the utmost confidence in a certain way, but I think there's some aspect of him, too, that feels like a failure. And I think in that way, I do have a lot of sympathy for him and lo"}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 6, "text": "So there's one more scene I want to play, and this is the scene between the two brothers who are the sons of different marriages. They have the same father. They have different mothers. They live on different coasts. They don't see each other very much, and they're back together again, uniting around their father who has been in the hospital. So they're catching up on each other's lives. And so in this scene, Danny, who's played by Adam Sandler, and Matthew, who's played by Ben Stiller, are going up the elevator in the hospital, catching up with each other.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was something that Dustin and I talked about when we did that scene, that, you know, because, you know - Harold goes to this opening of his friend's, you know, and it's this, you know, big re"}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 7, "text": "The movie strikes me as being very carefully written. Every moment seems to count. It doesn't seem like there's much improvisation in it. It seems very planned in a good way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Matthew Meyerowitz) Yeah, that's not what I do."}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Yes, very composed in a good way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 9, "text": "So what's it like to have somebody like - to have people like Adam Sandler and Ben Stiller on the set and not - and discourage improvisation", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 10, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 11, "text": "So since this movie is so much about the children of divorce and of half-siblings from two separate marriages, when your parents divorced, did they marry other people and have children with those other spouses?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What fool would do that? Well, first of all, I also will say I'm glad that's your observation because I think pretty much every Q&A, I get asked how much improvisation was in the movie, and I can'"}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 12, "text": "I'm wondering if your parents became different people when they were no longer a couple 'cause I think most people change depending on who they're with. I think most people have, you know, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They didn't have children, but they both married again."}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 13, "text": "...Like, code - I think most people have some kind of personality code switching in addition to maybe language code switching where you're funny with one person and you're more serious with another and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 14, "text": "You know, you talk more with one person and less with another person. You know, you're more quiet and introverted with one person than another. So, like, did your parents change when they became couples with different people, and did you change when you became part of those different units?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Do you think that watching your parents' divorce and remarriages made you any more or less enthusiastic about the prospect of becoming a parent yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know?"}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 16, "text": "So when you did divorce and it wasn't long after your son was born, did you feel like, oh, how can I do this to my son? You know, like, my parents did this to me; how could I do it to my son?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "probably of that, you know, you've just taken this leap, and yet you're telling this story of a marriage falling apart. And I - you know, it didn't seem strange to me at the time. I wanted to get marr"}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yeah, yeah. So let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Noah Baumbach, and his new film is called \"The Meyerowitz Stories (New and Selected).\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, it's such a bad time, and you just - I just - you know, I just felt bad all over. I mean, I didn't even feel it that kind of dramatically. Like, oh, no, I've done the same - you know, "}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Noah Baumbach. He directed the films \"The Squid And The Whale,\" \"Frances Ha,\" \"Greenberg.\" His new movie, which he also wrote and directed, is called \"The Meyerowitz Stories (New and Selected).\" So part of what happens in your movie is that the father is hospitalized. And I don't want to give away too much of the story. But the two sons and the daughter and - the older son and daughter are from one marriage. The younger son from another marriage, but they all have the same father. They're all in the hospital, you know, trying to watch over their father and deal with the doctors and the nurses and all the medical issues you have to deal with when someone's in the hospital. Had you had a hospitalization experience with someone who you're close to or yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, it's such a bad time, and you just - I just - you know, I just felt bad all over. I mean, I didn't even feel it that kind of dramatically. Like, oh, no, I've done the same - you know, "}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I've - that experience was, you know - in some ways came from my own experience being in the hospital - I mean, being with somebody who is in the hospital and, at the time, I mean, that "}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 20, "text": "So one of the issues for the sons is, is it, like - is it OK to leave for a while?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know, in a way, I think you could say in some way particularly it was my - not revenge on an individual but my revenge on a time in my life."}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 21, "text": "I know when, like, the Ben Stiller character...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know, in a way, I think you could say in some way particularly it was my - not revenge on an individual but my revenge on a time in my life."}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 22, "text": "...Says to the nurse so, like, I have a meeting with a client. Is it OK for me to leave", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, right."}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 23, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, right."}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Like, asking the nurse for permission. But I've been in that situation with my parents. And like, you don't know if it's OK to leave. First of all, you feel guilty about just even walking out of the room. And second of all, like, you don't know, like, is there going to be drama if I leave for an hour or two...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 25, "text": "...Or even longer? Like, are they going to still be alive? Is there something that terrible is going to happen? Are we at a transition point? Like, what's going on? But then the nurse or the doctor looks to you, like, that's your choice, you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 26, "text": "Absolutely. Like, if you're the model relative", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah. That - well, I was thinking in a way that the hospital sort of takes the place of a kind of parental role in a way for them because it is like in - you know, in absence of having the paren"}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 27, "text": ", then...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah. That - well, I was thinking in a way that the hospital sort of takes the place of a kind of parental role in a way for them because it is like in - you know, in absence of having the paren"}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 28, "text": "And then maybe they'll treat, like, your loved one, like, extra nice or at least not badly, you know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, right. You know, they..."}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 29, "text": "...Because, you know, in all honesty, there's so much, like, sloppiness in hospitals. It can be really frightening, you know, whether it's getting the wrong medicine or not getting the medicine or disregarding certain symptoms that, like, you see this change, but no one else seems to have noticed it. And you have to point it out and then point it out in such a way so that, like, you're being nice about it and you're not challenging their professional credentials by saying, look; they were better yesterday, and they're worse today. Something's wrong.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, right, exactly, yeah."}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 30, "text": "I - there was a great doctor once when my mother-in-law was in the hospital. He said, like, you know her really well. What do you see that's different? And I thought, like, wow that's really great...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, which happens in the movie, that thing of - you realize you know more than they do in some cases. And that's a scary thought, you know, because you can't make them better."}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 31, "text": "...To ask us and not just, like, tell us", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's what you want to hear."}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 32, "text": ". He was - he was really terrific.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's what you want to hear."}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 33, "text": "Then there's also the thing when it's a parent, as it is in the movie, seeing a parent who had been this very powerful figure when they were younger, and, when you were younger now be in a hospital bed. And to be, like, an older, weaker person in a hospital bed, it's such a turning point in your relationship with your parent when you see them in that kind of condition. And I think the adult siblings in the movie are going through that. Is that something that you went through too with whoever it was that was in the hospital of seeing them in a different way because they were in a weakened, vulnerable state from which they may never return to who they were before?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's what you want to hear. Yeah, I mean, I - you know, it's true of hospitals, it's true of the legal system, you know, going back to what you were saying about divorce, you know, of these times in"}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 34, "text": "Exactly. And you're back to dealing with the same resentments again. Like, you did all the forgiveness thing. You made your peace with everything. And then the person recovers. The father recovers and, like, you're back to the same annoyances and resentments and like nothing's change.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, absolutely. And you still have - you know, in the case of a parent, you still have all the, you know, complicated feelings, you know, of love and - but also whatever else, you know, with the str"}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 35, "text": "My guest is Noah Baumbach. His new film, \"The Meyerowitz Stories: New And Selected,\" opens in select theaters Friday and will also be available on Netflix starting Friday. We'll talk more after a break. And I'll talk with the author of a book about the making of the classic film \"Casablanca.\" Next month marks the 75th anniversary of the film's opening. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, absolutely. And that to me I thought dramatically and for the movie highlighted kind of what I wanted it to be about, which is that you can't - this is the stuff you've internalized. You know, y"}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 36, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross, back with Noah Baumbach, who wrote and directed the films \"Frances Ha,\" \"Greenberg\" and \"The Squid And The Whale.\" His new film, \"The Meyerowitz Stories: New And Selected,\" will open in select theaters and be available on Netflix starting Friday. It's about the complicated relationships in a complicated family. It stars Adam Sandler, Elizabeth Marvel and Ben Stiller as adult siblings who have the same father but are from two different marriages. Dustin Hoffman plays their father, a self-absorbed sculptor who teaches at Bard College. The Dustin Hoffman character, the narcissistic father who's so wrapped up in his art and thinks his art is really great and that he's unrecognized, he's such a recognizable father figure. Did you base it on anybody in your life? And is that an uncomfortable question to answer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, absolutely. And that to me I thought dramatically and for the movie highlighted kind of what I wanted it to be about, which is that you can't - this is the stuff you've internalized. You know, y"}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 37, "text": "Oh, like Dustin Hoffman's character.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my grandfather, who was named Harold..."}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 38, "text": "So did your grandfather pay attention to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like Dustin Hoffman's character - was a painter. And we used to go to - this is back where you could be a painter and teacher and have a townhouse in Brooklyn Heights and - but we would go to their ho"}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 39, "text": "Was it your job to admire him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, but I think it was clearly on his terms. You know, I mean, it was..."}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 40, "text": "You grew up in Park Slope and the home that you grew up in was also used as the home in the movie \"Heartburn,\" which has a screenplay by Nora Ephron, and it's based on her divorce from, I want to say, Dustin Hoffman", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think - I kind of knew that intuitively, but - I posed for him once, you know. Like, I wanted to get my painting done. I remember that was something that meant a lot to me because other people in th"}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 41, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think - I kind of knew that intuitively, but - I posed for him once, you know. Like, I wanted to get my painting done. I remember that was something that meant a lot to me because other people in th"}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 42, "text": "Carl Bernstein, yes. He plays Carl Bernstein in \"All The President's Men\" and her - Nora Ephron's actual divorce was from Carl Bernstein. So that's hilarious. Did you feel six degrees of separation from Dustin Hoffman before you started working with him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Carl Bernstein."}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 43, "text": "So did you learn anything about filmmaking when \"Heartburn\" was shot in your home? Were you on set? Did Mike Nichols let you watch what was happening? How old were you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, I had great love for Dustin Hoffman before I knew him because of, you know, all the movies I'd seen him in. I mean, he felt very much part of my childhood, you know. But Mike Nichols dir"}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 44, "text": "Why was it your house that was chosen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "while we waited out this hurricane. But, you know, I don't know that I consciously did except it was the only time I'd ever been on a film set until I made my first movie. So when I did make \"Kicking "}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 45, "text": "Well, Noah Baumbach, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was totally random. It was also a double for a Washington, D.C., home. And we - at the time, it was, like, being cast in a movie. I thought - I was so excited about it and I really couldn't believe"}
{"id": "556916879", "date": "2017-10-11", "guest": "Adam Sandler", "title": "Noah Baumbach Explores Love, Resentment And Anger In 'The Meyerowitz Stories'", "question_index": 46, "text": "Noah Baumbach wrote and directed the new film \"The Meyerowitz Stories: New And Selected.\" It opens in select theaters and will be available on Netflix starting Friday. After we take a short break, we'll talk about the making of the classic film \"Casablanca\" with Noah Isenberg, the author of a book about the making of the film. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "563050434", "date": "2017-11-09", "guest": "Nathaniel Popper", "title": "Once An Underground Currency, Bitcoin Emerges As 'A New Way To Track Information'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. There's so much I have to learn each day in preparation for interviews that when I don't absolutely have to know something, I sometimes give myself permission not to learn about it. And that's been my attitude toward bitcoin until now. Or, to put it another way, when both Bjork and Microsoft are accepting bitcoin, it's time. So we're going to talk about what bitcoin is and how it's used in the underground and legit marketplaces, how it's become a vehicle for investors and how big banks are starting to copy it. My guest, Nathaniel Popper, is a technology reporter for The New York Times who's been covering digital currency. A couple of years ago he wrote a book about bitcoin called \"Digital Gold.\" Nathaniel Popper, welcome to FRESH AIR. So for those of us who have never used bitcoin and don't really understand how it works, you tell me, why should we care?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "563050434", "date": "2017-11-09", "guest": "Nathaniel Popper", "title": "Once An Underground Currency, Bitcoin Emerges As 'A New Way To Track Information'", "question_index": 1, "text": "So just give us a sense of the scope. Like, how much money is invested in bitcoin now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that there are a number of layers on which this bitcoin thing is interesting. I mean, on the most sort of immediate level, people are using bitcoin in really interesting ways. I think pe"}
{"id": "563050434", "date": "2017-11-09", "guest": "Nathaniel Popper", "title": "Once An Underground Currency, Bitcoin Emerges As 'A New Way To Track Information'", "question_index": 2, "text": "OK. So what is a bitcoin?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, if you were to buy all of the bitcoin out in the world right now at the price this week, you would pay something like $120 billion. So that's the sort of simple way of thinking about the size of"}
{"id": "563050434", "date": "2017-11-09", "guest": "Nathaniel Popper", "title": "Once An Underground Currency, Bitcoin Emerges As 'A New Way To Track Information'", "question_index": 3, "text": "So was it created to solve certain problems with money as we know it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, to start with, and I think the thing that probably most people are aware of, it's essentially a digital token that you can buy and sell. But I think one of the reasons bitcoin has remained so co"}
{"id": "563050434", "date": "2017-11-09", "guest": "Nathaniel Popper", "title": "Once An Underground Currency, Bitcoin Emerges As 'A New Way To Track Information'", "question_index": 4, "text": "So the people who created bitcoin, 'cause it grew out of a movement, wanted privacy. But I'm not sure exactly where the line is between privacy and secrecy, but there's been a lot of secrecy surrounding the use of bitcoin because the first place it really took off was the underground market, like, on the dark web, the black markets on the dark web selling drugs and sex, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I mean, this idea when it first emerged in late 2008, actually on Halloween of 2008, was the culmination of really decades of work among a sort of small group of computer scientists and activists"}
{"id": "563050434", "date": "2017-11-09", "guest": "Nathaniel Popper", "title": "Once An Underground Currency, Bitcoin Emerges As 'A New Way To Track Information'", "question_index": 5, "text": "And it's the same phenomenon with ransomware, when somebody's computer is basically being held hostage by malware, and the only way to get access to your computer back is to pay the designated amount of ransom money in bitcoin. But, of course, experts warn that even if you pay it, you might not necessarily get access to your computer again. But - so that's something that's caught on.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. For sure. I mean, the line between privacy and secrecy is always very, very fuzzy, and I think that a lot of the technologies that are out there to provide privacy are also sort of abused on th"}
{"id": "563050434", "date": "2017-11-09", "guest": "Nathaniel Popper", "title": "Once An Underground Currency, Bitcoin Emerges As 'A New Way To Track Information'", "question_index": 6, "text": "And I should say that applies not just to individual computers, but also to, like, whole networks and to hospitals and, you know, around the globe.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, that's been a big thing that's risen up in the last two years, and..."}
{"id": "563050434", "date": "2017-11-09", "guest": "Nathaniel Popper", "title": "Once An Underground Currency, Bitcoin Emerges As 'A New Way To Track Information'", "question_index": 7, "text": "In terms of the dark web and the illegal, you know, the markets for illegal goods on the dark web that you have to pay for with bitcoin, some of those sites have been shut down, including Silk Road, the one that you mentioned, and more legit uses of bitcoin are emerging now. So what are some examples of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, it's created enormous problems for companies, for governments. You've seen, yeah, hospitals that have had to just go back to analog recordkeeping for weeks. I think it was the San Franci"}
{"id": "563050434", "date": "2017-11-09", "guest": "Nathaniel Popper", "title": "Once An Underground Currency, Bitcoin Emerges As 'A New Way To Track Information'", "question_index": 8, "text": "We need to take a short break here so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Nathaniel Popper, and we're talking about bitcoin. He's been writing about digital currency for several years. He's a tech reporter at The New York Times, and a couple of years ago, he wrote a book about bitcoin called \"Digital Gold.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the idealism that fueled bitcoin at the beginning, the place where you've seen that playing out is in countries where people have their money trapped or are losing money because the local curren"}
{"id": "563050434", "date": "2017-11-09", "guest": "Nathaniel Popper", "title": "Once An Underground Currency, Bitcoin Emerges As 'A New Way To Track Information'", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, we're talking about bitcoin and other digital currencies. And my guest, Nathaniel Popper, has been writing about bitcoin for several years. He's a tech reporter for The New York Times and the author of a book about bitcoin called \"Digital Gold.\" So I'm not sure we know who invented money, but we do know who invented bitcoin. Except we don't know because...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the idealism that fueled bitcoin at the beginning, the place where you've seen that playing out is in countries where people have their money trapped or are losing money because the local curren"}
{"id": "563050434", "date": "2017-11-09", "guest": "Nathaniel Popper", "title": "Once An Underground Currency, Bitcoin Emerges As 'A New Way To Track Information'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Because...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "563050434", "date": "2017-11-09", "guest": "Nathaniel Popper", "title": "Once An Underground Currency, Bitcoin Emerges As 'A New Way To Track Information'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Yeah. It's a pseudonym. He never really revealed who he was. Even you, who have been covering this for years, don't know who he is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a good way of putting it."}
{"id": "563050434", "date": "2017-11-09", "guest": "Nathaniel Popper", "title": "Once An Underground Currency, Bitcoin Emerges As 'A New Way To Track Information'", "question_index": 12, "text": "I'm sorry. Yeah. I don't even know it's a he, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "563050434", "date": "2017-11-09", "guest": "Nathaniel Popper", "title": "Once An Underground Currency, Bitcoin Emerges As 'A New Way To Track Information'", "question_index": 13, "text": "So when Satoshi Nakamoto, whoever that is, started bitcoin, he or she issued something between, like, guidelines and a manifesto. Like, a nine-page document. Can you sum up, for those of us who don't really understand this", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was going to say that. So people frequently say he, she, they or it in case it is a sort of autonomous, you know, being that created this of some sort. But, you know, what we do know is that the per"}
{"id": "563050434", "date": "2017-11-09", "guest": "Nathaniel Popper", "title": "Once An Underground Currency, Bitcoin Emerges As 'A New Way To Track Information'", "question_index": 14, "text": ", the principles that were laid out in those nine pages?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was going to say that. So people frequently say he, she, they or it in case it is a sort of autonomous, you know, being that created this of some sort. But, you know, what we do know is that the per"}
{"id": "563050434", "date": "2017-11-09", "guest": "Nathaniel Popper", "title": "Once An Underground Currency, Bitcoin Emerges As 'A New Way To Track Information'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well, for this to work, it really requires a level of faith. When you're talking about, say, dollars, it's backed up by the U.S. government. And if you have money in a bank, a certain amount of it is backed up by the FDIC. You know, if you invest in the stock market, it's going to fluctuate, but you have shares in something whereas with bitcoin it just seems like an act of faith in bitcoin.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Yeah, so this was the original. It's called Satoshi's White Paper. You know, it has this sort of iconic status, this nine-page PDF that was released in early - in late 2008. And it sort of descr"}
{"id": "563050434", "date": "2017-11-09", "guest": "Nathaniel Popper", "title": "Once An Underground Currency, Bitcoin Emerges As 'A New Way To Track Information'", "question_index": 16, "text": "My guest is Nathaniel Popper, a tech reporter for The New York Times and the author of a book about bitcoin called \"Digital Gold.\" After we take a short break, we'll talk more about how the bitcoin system works and how bitcoin are created by huge server farms competing against each other. And David Edelstein will review the new movie \"Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri\" starring Frances McDormand. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you are certainly right. I should note I think that, you know, all of those instances you just mentioned - the U.S. dollar is backed up by the U.S. government, by the FDIC - that's true. I mean,"}
{"id": "563050434", "date": "2017-11-09", "guest": "Nathaniel Popper", "title": "Once An Underground Currency, Bitcoin Emerges As 'A New Way To Track Information'", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're talking about bitcoin, the digital currency that was created in 2008. Although its roots were in idealism and libertarianism, it first became widely used for purchases on the dark web, the sites on the Internet black market selling drugs and sex. But this digital currency is now being used for more mainstream purchases. Big banks are starting to find uses for some of the innovative structure of the bitcoin system. My guest, Nathaniel Popper, is a tech reporter for The New York Times. A couple of years ago, he wrote a book about bitcoin called \"Digital Gold.\" So when bitcoin was first released into the world, it was determined by the person who released it, who goes by the name Satoshi Nakamoto, he or she determined how much bitcoin there would be in this world. There's a finite amount of bitcoin that will ever be released to make sure that, like gold, it retains its value. So it's a kind of complicated process how bitcoin is created or mined. Mined is the word that's used. New bitcoin is mined. So would you just tell us a little bit, like, in a comprehensive way about how new bitcoin is mined?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you are certainly right. I should note I think that, you know, all of those instances you just mentioned - the U.S. dollar is backed up by the U.S. government, by the FDIC - that's true. I mean,"}
{"id": "563050434", "date": "2017-11-09", "guest": "Nathaniel Popper", "title": "Once An Underground Currency, Bitcoin Emerges As 'A New Way To Track Information'", "question_index": 18, "text": "So you can't just say, well, I want to create new bitcoin. It's a kind of interesting process. You're basically competing with other people who also want to create new bitcoin. So what do you have? Do you have, like, a lot of computers competing with each other? And what's the competition? Like, what are the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a dangerous question, and it's a hard one to answer simply, but, you know, the answer to how bitcoin are created does sort of give you some glimpse into the inner workings of how this thing funct"}
{"id": "563050434", "date": "2017-11-09", "guest": "Nathaniel Popper", "title": "Once An Underground Currency, Bitcoin Emerges As 'A New Way To Track Information'", "question_index": 19, "text": "Who decides who wins?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "563050434", "date": "2017-11-09", "guest": "Nathaniel Popper", "title": "Once An Underground Currency, Bitcoin Emerges As 'A New Way To Track Information'", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yeah, that's what I was afraid of, but...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, we're slipping down the rabbit hole here and I..."}
{"id": "563050434", "date": "2017-11-09", "guest": "Nathaniel Popper", "title": "Once An Underground Currency, Bitcoin Emerges As 'A New Way To Track Information'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let's make sure not to go..."}
{"id": "563050434", "date": "2017-11-09", "guest": "Nathaniel Popper", "title": "Once An Underground Currency, Bitcoin Emerges As 'A New Way To Track Information'", "question_index": 22, "text": "I know you visited a server farm in Iceland. Did you go to one in China, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let's make sure not to go too deep data because it's based on cryptography and encryption, which is sort of the leading edge of math, you know, basically really hard math problems you have to solve. B"}
{"id": "563050434", "date": "2017-11-09", "guest": "Nathaniel Popper", "title": "Once An Underground Currency, Bitcoin Emerges As 'A New Way To Track Information'", "question_index": 23, "text": "So bitcoin is being used as an investment vehicle in the U.S. It's being used for investing, in speculation. How is that playing out here?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I went a couple years ago to one in China. They have gotten a lot bigger and more sophisticated since then. I mean, there are literally sort of towns that are built around this in China where you have"}
{"id": "563050434", "date": "2017-11-09", "guest": "Nathaniel Popper", "title": "Once An Underground Currency, Bitcoin Emerges As 'A New Way To Track Information'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Wow. Well, say this is a bubble, what happens", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, very well for the people who bought it early on. I mean, a bitcoin this week is worth something like $7,500. You know, a year ago, it was worth less than $1,000. And that has attracted a whole b"}
{"id": "563050434", "date": "2017-11-09", "guest": "Nathaniel Popper", "title": "Once An Underground Currency, Bitcoin Emerges As 'A New Way To Track Information'", "question_index": 25, "text": "? I mean, like, the price of bitcoin has been shooting straight up, but things that go up sometimes come back down.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, very well for the people who bought it early on. I mean, a bitcoin this week is worth something like $7,500. You know, a year ago, it was worth less than $1,000. And that has attracted a whole b"}
{"id": "563050434", "date": "2017-11-09", "guest": "Nathaniel Popper", "title": "Once An Underground Currency, Bitcoin Emerges As 'A New Way To Track Information'", "question_index": 26, "text": "So of the maximum 21 million bitcoin that can be released by - what were - year was it, 2040?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I mean, if you look at the chart of the bitcoin price since it was born, it is just a series of spikes and then drops, and then spikes and then drops. And over time, you know, you get the spike, "}
{"id": "563050434", "date": "2017-11-09", "guest": "Nathaniel Popper", "title": "Once An Underground Currency, Bitcoin Emerges As 'A New Way To Track Information'", "question_index": 27, "text": "2140, right - oh, 21 - wow, 2140.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "2140, yeah."}
{"id": "563050434", "date": "2017-11-09", "guest": "Nathaniel Popper", "title": "Once An Underground Currency, Bitcoin Emerges As 'A New Way To Track Information'", "question_index": 28, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We got a while."}
{"id": "563050434", "date": "2017-11-09", "guest": "Nathaniel Popper", "title": "Once An Underground Currency, Bitcoin Emerges As 'A New Way To Track Information'", "question_index": 29, "text": "I'm hearing, like, 2040. That's, like - that's so far away.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We're talking about a distant future."}
{"id": "563050434", "date": "2017-11-09", "guest": "Nathaniel Popper", "title": "Once An Underground Currency, Bitcoin Emerges As 'A New Way To Track Information'", "question_index": 30, "text": "OK, so how many bitcoin have already been released?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is."}
{"id": "563050434", "date": "2017-11-09", "guest": "Nathaniel Popper", "title": "Once An Underground Currency, Bitcoin Emerges As 'A New Way To Track Information'", "question_index": 31, "text": "OK, it's time for a short break. Let me reintroduce you. My guest is Nathaniel Popper. We're talking about bitcoin, and he's been writing about bitcoin for several years. He's a tech reporter for The New York Times who wrote a book a couple of years ago about bitcoin called \"Digital Gold.\" Back after this short break - this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We're getting close to 17 million. So the reward to people who are helping to support the network falls in half every four years. So initially, it was 50, and then 25 and now we're down to 12 1/2, and"}
{"id": "563050434", "date": "2017-11-09", "guest": "Nathaniel Popper", "title": "Once An Underground Currency, Bitcoin Emerges As 'A New Way To Track Information'", "question_index": 32, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Nathaniel Popper. He's a tech reporter at The New York Times. And we're talking about bitcoin - digital currency - and he's been covering bitcoin for several years. A couple of years ago, he wrote a book about it called \"Digital Gold.\" So, you know, whether you use bitcoin or not, whether you think it's going to last or not, the architecture of the system seems pretty ingenious. And there are major banks and even the New York Stock Exchange, you know, that are picking up on some of the architecture to borrow it for their own purposes, and what they're borrowing from is what's called the blockchain. Would you explain what that is and how, like, major banks are trying to borrow that system?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We're getting close to 17 million. So the reward to people who are helping to support the network falls in half every four years. So initially, it was 50, and then 25 and now we're down to 12 1/2, and"}
{"id": "563050434", "date": "2017-11-09", "guest": "Nathaniel Popper", "title": "Once An Underground Currency, Bitcoin Emerges As 'A New Way To Track Information'", "question_index": 33, "text": "So you're not allowed to invest in bitcoin because you cover it for The New York Times. Are you allowed to use it, and have you used it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Well, I think the blockchain, in the simplest sense, is the record of all the bitcoin transactions. It's a ledger, a sort of a spreadsheet on which bitcoin transactions are recorded. But what's "}
{"id": "563050434", "date": "2017-11-09", "guest": "Nathaniel Popper", "title": "Once An Underground Currency, Bitcoin Emerges As 'A New Way To Track Information'", "question_index": 34, "text": "So if you want to get bitcoin to make purchases, how do you get it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I mean, our take at The New York Times has basically been, I can have enough to play with and understand it. And I think the understanding has generally been that, you know, those bitcoins essent"}
{"id": "563050434", "date": "2017-11-09", "guest": "Nathaniel Popper", "title": "Once An Underground Currency, Bitcoin Emerges As 'A New Way To Track Information'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Have you had any great bitcoin adventures in researching your book or writing for The New York Times that you could share for - share with us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, companies - not surprisingly, companies have sprung up to make this very easy for you to take your money and give you bitcoin. You know, there's - probably the biggest company in the United Stat"}
{"id": "563050434", "date": "2017-11-09", "guest": "Nathaniel Popper", "title": "Once An Underground Currency, Bitcoin Emerges As 'A New Way To Track Information'", "question_index": 36, "text": "Well, Nathaniel Popper, I want to thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, this whole thing has been such an incredible story. I mean, that's why I was drawn to it. I mean, the number of people who have gone to jail - often shortly after getting fabulously wealthy - "}
{"id": "563050434", "date": "2017-11-09", "guest": "Nathaniel Popper", "title": "Once An Underground Currency, Bitcoin Emerges As 'A New Way To Track Information'", "question_index": 37, "text": "Nathaniel Popper is a tech reporter for The New York Times and the author of a book about bitcoin called \"Digital Gold.\" After we take a short break, David Edelstein will review the new movie \"Three Billboards Outside Ebbing, Missouri.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me."}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Here's how my guest describes his work. He writes, (reading) I am an anesthesiologist. I erase consciousness, deny memories, steal time, immobilize the body. I alter heart rate, blood pressure and breathing, and then I reverse these effects. I eliminate pain during a procedure, and I prevent it afterwards. I care for sick people, and I have saved lives, but it's rare that I'm the actual healer. That's from the opening of Dr. Henry Jay Przybylo's new memoir, \"Counting Backwards: A Doctor's Notes On Anesthesia.\" He specializes in pediatric anesthesiology and estimates he treats about 1,000 children a year from micropreemies (ph) to teenagers. He's dealt with benign conditions, like the removal of a skin mole, as well as potentially fatal ones, like clipping a cerebral artery aneurism and heart transplants. He's also an associate professor at the Northwestern University School of Medicine. Dr. Przybylo, welcome to FRESH AIR. Your book is called \"Counting Backwards.\" So why do anesthesiologists ask patients to count backwards from 100?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 1, "text": "Why not count from one, two, three, four, five, as opposed to 100, 99, 98?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I'm not sure. I searched the Internet and everything to try and find the answer to that, and the closest I can come to is that around 1940s, we came up - medicines were developed to induce a"}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 2, "text": "Wow, OK. But you have children who you're working with.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because I think you have to think a little bit. You can slur the counting upwards, but counting backwards is a little more difficult. And I even make it a little bit more problematic and difficult for"}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 3, "text": "So you write in your book, I put people into a coma, and the medications I administer cause paralysis. I read that, and I was thinking, please don't tell me that right before you put me under.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The children to go to sleep by mask, so they're breathing, and I talk to them about my piggy gas story and - you know, when we're slowly going to sleep. And in the mask, usually, there's some odor, so"}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 4, "text": "So are you - you're putting patients in a coma. What's the difference between the anesthesia-induced coma and sleep?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't. I never tell them that."}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 5, "text": "So you're not having dreams, but did you say your brain isn't functioning?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We go right through the sleep patterns. And that - if you were to check the electrical activity in my anesthesia, there's very, very little electrical activity, where, in sleep, you have different pha"}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 6, "text": "So what is it that causes the paralysis, and what degree of paralysis are we talking about, and why are you even doing that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's doing the basic functions from the lower parts of the brain that are giving you heart rate and blood pressure and breathing, unless I have given the paralysis. But in terms of the upper bra"}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 7, "text": "Do you worry that they won't come out of it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a complete paralysis, and it goes way back, hundreds of years ago, to the poisons discovered in Central and South America - the curare, wurare, I believe it was when it was first discovered. And "}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 8, "text": "And you also give a drug that prevents people from remembering anything that happened during the anesthesia.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, never, never. The - and while I can't fully explain how a lot of my anesthetics work, you know, 40 million times a year, people receive anesthetics, and they wake up. It's a rare one who doesn't w"}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 9, "text": "So what kind of drug is that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct. You know..."}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 10, "text": "But people who take Valium for anxiety - is that killing their memory?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's mother's little helper. I think the Rolling Stones wrote the song about it. It's a Valium-like drug. But there's a little bit of a difference here. And let me pull back just a moment fo"}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 11, "text": "I see. I remember when I had my tonsils removed - and this was a long time ago. And it was back when all children had their tonsils removed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it depends what dose they're taking. You know, this - there's the one sleeping drug called Ambien that has had a lot of following in the press over the years, and it has the ability to prevent m"}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 12, "text": "Are you? OK. So I had ether.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, we're still doing a lot of that today."}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 13, "text": "And I still remember the smell.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep."}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 14, "text": "And, in fact, I really believe this. I may be wrong, but I lived in an apartment building when I was growing up, and one of the kids at the other end of the floor - after I had my tonsillectomy, that kid had their tonsillectomy. And I remember smelling the ether in the hallway. Is that even possible?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 15, "text": "But I mean, in the hallway of my apartment building, after the patient came home...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, you sure did. The gases - the ether - the beauty of it is that it worked. I mean, in the 1840s, they fell out..."}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 16, "text": "Hmm, OK. So one of the developments you write about is ultrasound, which can target specific nerves. So how do you use that as an anesthesiologist?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. What happened was - the first ether that was used was what we call very soluble. It just got into every part of the body, and it took a long time for it to get out. On the other hand, the "}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 17, "text": "So you specialize in pediatric anesthesiology. You estimate that you anesthetize about a thousand children in an average year, and you also work with preemies - premature babies. Like, what's the smallest that you've had to administer anesthesia to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The ultrasound is like a pack of cards - the probe that you take. And you put a gelatin on the end of the probe, and then you just rub it along the skin, and it gives sound waves to give you pictures "}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 18, "text": "Oh, that's, like, the definition of fragility. I mean, what are your concerns?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Six hundred and forty grams is my memory. It's 1 1/2 pounds. The most recent was 2 1/2 pounds. So yeah, we're - pretty tiny."}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 19, "text": "...That you have to deal with when you have to - yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, everything is so tiny."}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 20, "text": "You must have to administer a microdose.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's just so tiny. The - you know, sometimes, I'm asked, what's the difference between the pediatric care and adult care? In the pediatric care, so much of it is similar, but it's like, you take a bul"}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 21, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Dr. Henry Jay Przybylo. He's an anesthesiologist who's written a new memoir called \"Counting Backwards.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We use the tiniest syringes. That's absolutely right. The gas, interestingly, isn't as much of a difference. The gas doesn't matter across - it does a little bit but not a whole lot across ages and no"}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR and if you're just joining us, my guest is Dr. Henry Jay Przybylo. He's an anesthesiologist who's written a new memoir called \"Counting Backwards.\" He's also an associate professor of anesthesiology at Northwestern University School of Medicine. So you're not supposed to eat before anesthesia. Everybody who's ever had any form of anesthesia knows that. I think it's usually, like, midnight the night before is the latest. And you're supposed to have - what? - like, a light meal? You tell me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We use the tiniest syringes. That's absolutely right. The gas, interestingly, isn't as much of a difference. The gas doesn't matter across - it does a little bit but not a whole lot across ages and no"}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 23, "text": "So you write that the first time you saw a human heart, it was a religious experience. Tell us about that experience.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The whole issue - whenever you put something in a stomach, you generate acid. And that acid - while the stomach is built to withstand it, none of the rest of the body is. So when you have something th"}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 24, "text": "Now, I saw a beating heart in a movie recently. And I have to say I found it a little upsetting", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When the chest is opened, you know, the heart lies deep to the sternum - that hard bone, the breast bone. And when you open it up, the first thing you see is a covering, the pericardium. And the heart"}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 25, "text": "because - well, let me explain why.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When the chest is opened, you know, the heart lies deep to the sternum - that hard bone, the breast bone. And when you open it up, the first thing you see is a covering, the pericardium. And the heart"}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 26, "text": "I didn't want to think about how hard that muscle has to work every second in order for me to stay alive. Like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, please."}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 27, "text": "You kind of don't want to be thinking about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It sure does."}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 28, "text": "So you see hearts beating on the table during transplants.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, you don't want to be thinking about it. But when I see the heart, there's a very good reason. And that's because that heart isn't going to be beating much longer unless I do see it."}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 29, "text": "So you've had to calm a lot of parents who are basically handing their children over to you to be anesthesized (ph) before surgery. You were in that position of being a parent yourself when your son at the age of 30, I think was, was anesthetized before a very major procedure. What was the surgery your son was having?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes, oh, yes. The most - the emptiest feeling that you get is at the transplant time when they take the heart out and you look into their chest cavity where something should be and it isn't there."}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 30, "text": "And so what was the experience like for you of not doing that anesthesia yourself and handing your son over to the anesthesiologist and overriding your impulse to, like, watch", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He had a vascular malformation in his brain that needed to be taken out."}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 31, "text": "the anesthesiologist over his shoulder while he or she worked?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He had a vascular malformation in his brain that needed to be taken out."}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 32, "text": "How come you didn't do it yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was absolutely horrible because every second that you sit in that waiting room, you know, you're picturing exactly what's going on right behind the walls that you're trying to peer through. And you"}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 33, "text": "You write that you were overcome by waiting room paralysis. Describe what that is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was at a different hospital. I would have done it if I could have. I would have given anything to do it. I did procedures on my wife. So you know, I would have if I could have. But he needed to go "}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 34, "text": "I think I've had that kind of waiting room paralysis, but I didn't have a name for it. Is that your expression, or does everybody use that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's when you plunk yourself down in a chair, and you're afraid to move a millimeter because you're afraid that in that time, somebody is going to come and announce something to you. And so you just"}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 35, "text": "Yeah, that's a good one. So how did your son's procedure turn out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's my expression."}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 36, "text": "Your book is dedicated to your wife...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "silly thing about it is that at the end of the procedure, which went longer than it was anticipated, they didn't have a intensive care unit bed ready. And he spent I think about two hours in the opera"}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 37, "text": "...Who you write left me far too soon.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 38, "text": "When did that happen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She had a brain aneurysm."}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 39, "text": "What's the connection between that and writing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was pregnant with my last daughter. It was right during the pregnancy, and she wasn't supposed to survive and miraculously she did. She was in the single-digit survivor risk rate. And she managed "}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 40, "text": "With your wife's brain changes, was that cognition or mood, memory?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first of all, it was - she had a lot of mental changes. And so we were searching for years for different things and different causes and different help. And we went through dozens of psychiatris"}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 41, "text": "What does that mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was everything. It was everything. But she was very, very unpredictable. She had a frontal lobe injury called dysexecutive function disorder. And for anybody who doubts how great psychiatry is - an"}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 42, "text": "Bad to herself or to just in general.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It means pretty much she lost her soul, that at - given any time alone, she would do something bad. And so we had to keep a constant eye on her."}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 43, "text": "How long did she live after that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Bad to herself. It was very difficult."}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 44, "text": "I'm so sorry. It must have been so hard for you during that whole period, let alone after it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She passed away two years ago, so she made about 16 years."}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 45, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Still is."}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 46, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Still is."}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 47, "text": "My guest is Dr. Henry Jay Przybylo, author of the new memoir \"Counting Backwards: A Doctor's Notes On Anesthesia.\" We'll talk more after a break. And Jesmyn Ward will talk about her novel \"Sing, Unburied, Sing,\" which won a National Book Award this month. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But, you know, you try and look at the bright side of things and you try to go forward. And the comments that I've had about the book have all been spectacular, and they give me pause to, you know, gi"}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 48, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross, back with Dr. Henry Jay Przybylo, a pediatric anesthesiologist who's written a new memoir called \"Counting Backwards: A Doctor's Notes On Anesthesia.\" He's also an associate professor at the Northwestern University School of Medicine. So from your perspective as an anesthesiologist, what are some of the most worrisome things happening now in health care and health insurance just in terms of people getting what they need and being able to afford what they need?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But, you know, you try and look at the bright side of things and you try to go forward. And the comments that I've had about the book have all been spectacular, and they give me pause to, you know, gi"}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 49, "text": "In this case, it was a boy who had been on Medicaid. And the Medicaid for children runs out at age 18 or 19. Do I have that right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there's the one section about the boy with the transplant, and it's a very problematic, bothersome, very hurtful thing that you go through - the point of getting a transplant to a patient and th"}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 50, "text": "And that costs a lot of money.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I'd have to look it up myself. I think it's on the 30th day of the month of their 19th birthday the bill sunsets. And so then he no longer received money for his medication. And I think it w"}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 51, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not only does it cost a lot of money, these people kick into a non-retransplant list because they've caused their own issue. And there's so many people waiting for transplants before them that they do"}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 52, "text": "How would you change that if you could?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was horrible."}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 53, "text": "So when you were just starting out as an anesthesiologist, were you nervous that you would do something wrong? And if so, how did you kind of mask that and present a kind of calm surface to the people who you had to calm?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, if the state would have had the foresight to, say, spend the $20 a day then you would have stopped 50, 60, 70 days in the intensive care. You could have paid for 20 years of his medications."}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 54, "text": "So no offense, but I think a lot of patients really do live in fear that they're going to get, like, the new doctor or the new resident", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The very first day of being a physician - July 1 - after receiving lectures on you better do all your medical charts or you're never going to get paid, and the sheriff will come and deliver your malpr"}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 55, "text": "and that you're going to be a kind of practice patient and not have really experienced hands working on you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The very first day of being a physician - July 1 - after receiving lectures on you better do all your medical charts or you're never going to get paid, and the sheriff will come and deliver your malpr"}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 56, "text": "Yeah, but you're really skilled.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One way to look at it is every patient is a practice patient for me because I'm always trying to get better. I'm always looking for better ways to do things, more successful ways to do things."}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 57, "text": "You said that you use anesthesia all the time, but you don't really understand how it works.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But - yeah, I can't argue. I am. And, you know, I would like to be nice and humble on that one, but I am. But whenever anybody touches a patient in my stead, if I'm the one directing it, that's an ext"}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 58, "text": "Must be kind of odd for you to administer medications when you don't know how they work.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct."}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 59, "text": "It's been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I ask the patient to have faith in me as I have faith in my anesthetic. And it just works. Healthy patients go in. Healthy patients come out. It's just my statistics, but I'm very proud of t"}
{"id": "566930373", "date": "2017-11-28", "guest": "Henry Jay Przybylo", "title": "For Anesthesiologist, Easing Pain And Erasing Memories Is All In A Day's Work", "question_index": 60, "text": "Dr. Henry Jay Przybylo is the author of the new memoir \"Counting Backwards: A Doctor's Notes On Anesthesia.\" After we take a short break, Jesmyn Ward will talk about her novel \"Sing, Unburied, Sing,\" which won a National Book Award this month. It's about a boy growing up with a black mother and white father in rural Mississippi. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. I've enjoyed this very much."}
{"id": "567215478", "date": "2017-11-29", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Stars Of 'The President Show' Present An 'Off The Rails' Version Of Trump", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. If you can imagine President Trump hosting a late night talk show in the Oval Office with Vice President Pence as his sidekick, you'll get a sense of the Comedy Central series, \"The President Show.\" My guests are the two stars. Anthony Atamanuik plays President Trump and created the series. Peter Grosz plays Vice President Pence. They both serve as executive producers and writers on the show. Their Christmas special will be shown Thursday night on Comedy Central. It's called \"I Came Up With Christmas: A President Show Christmas.\" Atamanuik has had a long association with the improv group the Upright Citizens Brigade as a performer and teacher. Grosz wrote for the show, \"The Colbert Report\" and \"Late Night With Seth Meyers\" and has been a panelist on NPR's comedy news quiz show, Wait Wait...Don't Tell Me! Let's start with an excerpt of \"The President Show.\" This is a scene in which President Trump is responding to questions from reporters at a press conference.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "567215478", "date": "2017-11-29", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Stars Of 'The President Show' Present An 'Off The Rails' Version Of Trump", "question_index": 1, "text": "Anthony Atamanuik, Peter Grosz, welcome to FRESH AIR. Before we talk about Thursday's Christmas special, let's just get the general premise of \"The President Show,\" which is set up in part as kind of a late night talk show. Anthony, you want to describe what the setup is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Donald Trump) Quiet, honey. If words mattered, I wouldn't be president right now."}
{"id": "567215478", "date": "2017-11-29", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Stars Of 'The President Show' Present An 'Off The Rails' Version Of Trump", "question_index": 2, "text": "And with the Vice President Mike Pence as the second banana?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think that the setup of the show is predicated on the idea of the fireside chat and what would Trump's idea of the weekly presidential address be. And it was rooted sort of in that scene in \"C"}
{"id": "567215478", "date": "2017-11-29", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Stars Of 'The President Show' Present An 'Off The Rails' Version Of Trump", "question_index": 3, "text": "Anthony, what made you think of doing Trump in the first place?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. That's my - yeah, it's truly a nod to \"McLaughlin Group\" because I love that show so much."}
{"id": "567215478", "date": "2017-11-29", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Stars Of 'The President Show' Present An 'Off The Rails' Version Of Trump", "question_index": 4, "text": "You know, it seems to me your voice is somewhat in the same register as Donald Trump's.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "567215478", "date": "2017-11-29", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Stars Of 'The President Show' Present An 'Off The Rails' Version Of Trump", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think Anthony's brain is in the same register as Donald Trump."}
{"id": "567215478", "date": "2017-11-29", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Stars Of 'The President Show' Present An 'Off The Rails' Version Of Trump", "question_index": 6, "text": "So I'm going to ask you to break down how you do his voice because...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I think it's necessary. With Trump, I think the biggest question you get is Trump fatigue. Is - does Trump write - Trump writes his own material. Isn't it so easy to do Trump, you know, because he"}
{"id": "567215478", "date": "2017-11-29", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Stars Of 'The President Show' Present An 'Off The Rails' Version Of Trump", "question_index": 7, "text": "...You do really have a gift", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "567215478", "date": "2017-11-29", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Stars Of 'The President Show' Present An 'Off The Rails' Version Of Trump", "question_index": 8, "text": "for that. So - because you do it both in terms of like the sound of the voice, but also like the rhythm patterns of his speech. Like, you've kind of nailed the thought patterns behind his speech.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "567215478", "date": "2017-11-29", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Stars Of 'The President Show' Present An 'Off The Rails' Version Of Trump", "question_index": 9, "text": "You know how you were saying that when he says something, it's, like, then he repeats it as if he's having a conversation with himself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Donald Trump) I'd be out of a job if I didn't have this. Let me tell you. Believe me. And so yeah, and then his - so then you have the second chamber, which is that he is listening to himself talk"}
{"id": "567215478", "date": "2017-11-29", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Stars Of 'The President Show' Present An 'Off The Rails' Version Of Trump", "question_index": 10, "text": "And talking about Roy Moore, he said, let me just tell you, Roy Moore denies it. That's all I can say. He denies it. By the way, he totally denies it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "567215478", "date": "2017-11-29", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Stars Of 'The President Show' Present An 'Off The Rails' Version Of Trump", "question_index": 11, "text": "And I thought it was so interesting to add the, like, by the way, because that usually implies, here's something you didn't know. Here's something else. Here's something that's just a bit of a tangent.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep."}
{"id": "567215478", "date": "2017-11-29", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Stars Of 'The President Show' Present An 'Off The Rails' Version Of Trump", "question_index": 12, "text": "Here's something new. But he's just repeating the same thing again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Here's something new."}
{"id": "567215478", "date": "2017-11-29", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Stars Of 'The President Show' Present An 'Off The Rails' Version Of Trump", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, my favorite one, I always say, is there's a - Bibi Netanyahu and Trump were having a joint press conference, and they're talking about Palestinian schools having Israeli - anti-Israeli propaga"}
{"id": "567215478", "date": "2017-11-29", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Stars Of 'The President Show' Present An 'Off The Rails' Version Of Trump", "question_index": 14, "text": "So I think this would be a good point to take a short break, and when we come back, we'll talk with Peter Grosz about portraying Vice President Mike Pence. So if you're just joining us, my guests are Anthony Atamanuik, who, on \"The President Show,\" stars as President Trump, and Peter Grosz, who plays Mike Pence. And this is on Comedy Central, and their Christmas special comes up this Thursday night. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So he knows that everybody has to pretend around him because nobody can say - it is literally the emperor has - it's literally the emperor has no clothes."}
{"id": "567215478", "date": "2017-11-29", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Stars Of 'The President Show' Present An 'Off The Rails' Version Of Trump", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, we're talking about \"The President Show,\" which is the Comedy Central show in which my guest, Anthony Atamanuik, plays President Trump, and my other guest, Peter Grosz, plays Vice President Mike Pence. And the show is kind of designed like a late-night talk show where the president's the host, and the vice president is the sidekick. So let's hear a scene which showcases Peter Grosz as Mike Pence. So they're talking about executive orders, and the president is about to get the vice president to write one. They're sitting in the Oval Office, and the president keeps freezing time and giving his thoughts about what's happening, so you'll hear him freeze time and basically talk to himself or talk to the audience. So here's a scene from \"The President Show.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So he knows that everybody has to pretend around him because nobody can say - it is literally the emperor has - it's literally the emperor has no clothes."}
{"id": "567215478", "date": "2017-11-29", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Stars Of 'The President Show' Present An 'Off The Rails' Version Of Trump", "question_index": 16, "text": "OK. That's my guest Peter Grosz as Vice President Mike Pence, and my guest Anthony Atamanuik as President Trump. So, Peter, how did you start doing Pence?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Donald Trump) Thank you so much."}
{"id": "567215478", "date": "2017-11-29", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Stars Of 'The President Show' Present An 'Off The Rails' Version Of Trump", "question_index": 17, "text": "Command from whom?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "On command."}
{"id": "567215478", "date": "2017-11-29", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Stars Of 'The President Show' Present An 'Off The Rails' Version Of Trump", "question_index": 18, "text": "So Mike Pence defines himself this way. He says, I'm a Christian, conservative and Republican in that order. And so they got the Jewish guy, Peter Grosz", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "567215478", "date": "2017-11-29", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Stars Of 'The President Show' Present An 'Off The Rails' Version Of Trump", "question_index": 19, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "567215478", "date": "2017-11-29", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Stars Of 'The President Show' Present An 'Off The Rails' Version Of Trump", "question_index": 20, "text": "...To play him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "567215478", "date": "2017-11-29", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Stars Of 'The President Show' Present An 'Off The Rails' Version Of Trump", "question_index": 21, "text": "Coincidence?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "567215478", "date": "2017-11-29", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Stars Of 'The President Show' Present An 'Off The Rails' Version Of Trump", "question_index": 22, "text": "My guests are Anthony Atamanuik and Peter Grosz, the stars of The Comedy Central series \"The President Show.\" After a break, we'll talk about their Christmas special, which is coming up tomorrow night. And Atamanuik will tell us about auditioning for \"Saturday Night Live\" by doing impressions of Trump and Alec Baldwin. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Don't be mad. That's our magic trick."}
{"id": "567215478", "date": "2017-11-29", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Stars Of 'The President Show' Present An 'Off The Rails' Version Of Trump", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross back with the two stars of The Comedy Central series \"The President Show.\" Anthony Atamanuik plays President Trump. Peter Grosz plays Mike Pence. The show is set up like a late night talk show in the Oval Office with Trump as the host and Pence as his sidekick. Atamanuik and Grosz are also executive producers and writers on the show. They're now at work on \"The President Show\" Christmas special, which will be on Comedy Central tomorrow night. Let's hear another clip from \"The President Show.\" Trump is dressed in a superhero costume with a cape, holding a shield covered in the American flag.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Don't be mad. That's our magic trick."}
{"id": "567215478", "date": "2017-11-29", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Stars Of 'The President Show' Present An 'Off The Rails' Version Of Trump", "question_index": 24, "text": "Let's talk about the Christmas show that you have coming up. Is it inspired by, like, the really corny, old-fashioned, kind of Perry Como-Andy Williams Christmas shows?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Donald Trump) Bye-bye. (CHEERING)"}
{"id": "567215478", "date": "2017-11-29", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Stars Of 'The President Show' Present An 'Off The Rails' Version Of Trump", "question_index": 25, "text": "So you're going to be doing some singing on the Christmas special. And I think Broadway played a part in both of your lives. Peter, your mother used to take you to Broadway shows.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know?"}
{"id": "567215478", "date": "2017-11-29", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Stars Of 'The President Show' Present An 'Off The Rails' Version Of Trump", "question_index": 26, "text": "And, Anthony, your mother danced in Broadway shows before she started teaching dance, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That is true."}
{"id": "567215478", "date": "2017-11-29", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Stars Of 'The President Show' Present An 'Off The Rails' Version Of Trump", "question_index": 27, "text": "A Fosse dancer - whoa.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, she was Fosse dancer and..."}
{"id": "567215478", "date": "2017-11-29", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Stars Of 'The President Show' Present An 'Off The Rails' Version Of Trump", "question_index": 28, "text": "Which production of \"How To Succeed?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. She studied at Joffrey Ballet, and she was in \"Unsinkable Molly Brown,\" the original, and \"How To Succeed In Business Without Really Trying.\" She was a chorus dancer."}
{"id": "567215478", "date": "2017-11-29", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Stars Of 'The President Show' Present An 'Off The Rails' Version Of Trump", "question_index": 29, "text": "Oh, so that's the original production.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- my mother will rattle it off. You know, she was in the tour. She was in the Boston company of \"Hair.\" And then that was it. And then she went and taught at Emerson. But who was the - who's the guy i"}
{"id": "567215478", "date": "2017-11-29", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Stars Of 'The President Show' Present An 'Off The Rails' Version Of Trump", "question_index": 30, "text": "That's the original production.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, she was in that production."}
{"id": "567215478", "date": "2017-11-29", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Stars Of 'The President Show' Present An 'Off The Rails' Version Of Trump", "question_index": 31, "text": "Peter, you're writing for characters. You're writing for yourself as Vice President Pence and for Anthony as President Trump. You've written for characters before in the sense that, like, you wrote for Stephen Colbert on \"The Colbert Report\" when he played, you know, a blowhard conservative cable news show host What's it like for you to be one of the performers now on a show that you're writing for, Peter?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So she didn't get the job. She also used to tell me that - when I would not get auditions, she'd be like, you never know. You never know why, so yeah."}
{"id": "567215478", "date": "2017-11-29", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Stars Of 'The President Show' Present An 'Off The Rails' Version Of Trump", "question_index": 32, "text": "Anthony, I think I have this right, that before Alec Baldwin started portraying President Trump on \"Saturday Night Live,\" you auditioned for \"Saturday Night Live\" and in your audition you did Trump and you did Alec Baldwin", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "567215478", "date": "2017-11-29", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Stars Of 'The President Show' Present An 'Off The Rails' Version Of Trump", "question_index": 33, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "567215478", "date": "2017-11-29", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Stars Of 'The President Show' Present An 'Off The Rails' Version Of Trump", "question_index": 34, "text": "And you did not get the - did not get the role, but what was your audition like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That is true."}
{"id": "567215478", "date": "2017-11-29", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Stars Of 'The President Show' Present An 'Off The Rails' Version Of Trump", "question_index": 35, "text": "Oh, you're kidding. What did that sound like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Marci was one of the producers, and she was producer over at \"SNL\" as well. And so I thought it was very funny to depict him picking over the craft service table because he used to put his hands on hi"}
{"id": "567215478", "date": "2017-11-29", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Stars Of 'The President Show' Present An 'Off The Rails' Version Of Trump", "question_index": 36, "text": "If you're just joining us, we're talking about \"The President Show,\" which is the Comedy Central show that stars my guest Anthony Atamanuik as President Trump and my guest Peter Grosz as the vice president. And they have a Christmas special that's coming up this Thursday. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "that's the joke, you know. You know, he's like, (imitating Ronan Farrow) Dad, you know, you and me. It's like we're looking in a mirror, you know? He's like (imitating Woody Allen) yes, you know, I kn"}
{"id": "567215478", "date": "2017-11-29", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Stars Of 'The President Show' Present An 'Off The Rails' Version Of Trump", "question_index": 37, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is Anthony Atamanuik, who plays President Trump on \"The President Show\" on Comedy Central, and Peter Grosz, who plays Mike Pence on the show. They have a Christmas special coming up this Thursday, and they both come from the world of improv and also Peter Grosz was a writer for Seth Meyers' late-night show and also for \"The Colbert Report.\" Have you both become much more political because of the political comedy that you're involved with now with \"The President Show,\" but, Peter, before that for you for Seth Meyers and Stephen Colbert?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "that's the joke, you know. You know, he's like, (imitating Ronan Farrow) Dad, you know, you and me. It's like we're looking in a mirror, you know? He's like (imitating Woody Allen) yes, you know, I kn"}
{"id": "567215478", "date": "2017-11-29", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Stars Of 'The President Show' Present An 'Off The Rails' Version Of Trump", "question_index": 38, "text": "OK. So \"The President Show\" Christmas special is coming up. We just finished with Thanksgiving. Christmas is ahead. With America being divided as it is, a lot of families - a lot of people are just kind of - are dreading the holidays because the big family dinners often mean you're going to be at a festive holiday table arguing about politics with your family.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Like, I don't have any role in creating that show, but I'm so happy. I feel so lucky to have been on it a few times. Yeah, it's just part of my life, but my parents were political. My sister was"}
{"id": "567215478", "date": "2017-11-29", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Stars Of 'The President Show' Present An 'Off The Rails' Version Of Trump", "question_index": 39, "text": "And I think people on both sides of the divide feel the pain of that. Is it any worse for you because you're actually, like, portraying Pence and Trump? So I don't know if your family is politically divided or not, but if they are, I would imagine you'd catch a lot of", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "567215478", "date": "2017-11-29", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Stars Of 'The President Show' Present An 'Off The Rails' Version Of Trump", "question_index": 40, "text": "a lot of - that holiday dinners would be difficult.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "567215478", "date": "2017-11-29", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Stars Of 'The President Show' Present An 'Off The Rails' Version Of Trump", "question_index": 41, "text": "Peter, do you have big family political conflicts at holiday time, and does playing Mike Pence intensify that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So our message in the show is not to sit there and say, every person on the other side of the divide - you're, you know, ignorant; you're garbage, you're blah, blah, blah. That - nothing is served by "}
{"id": "567215478", "date": "2017-11-29", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Stars Of 'The President Show' Present An 'Off The Rails' Version Of Trump", "question_index": 42, "text": "Well, I want to thank you both so much. Peter Grosz, Anthony Atamanuik, thank you so much for being with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...That Anthony was doing. So it was actually kind of nice. It was a good way to sort of get together and be like, yeah, we can all laugh at this man 'cause I do think ultimately he's right. The targe"}
{"id": "567215478", "date": "2017-11-29", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Stars Of 'The President Show' Present An 'Off The Rails' Version Of Trump", "question_index": 43, "text": "Anthony Atamanuik and Peter Grosz are the stars of the Comedy Central series \"The President Show.\" Their \"President Show\" Christmas special will be on Comedy Central tomorrow night. Coming up, Justin Chang reviews the new film by Guillermo del Toro, who also made \"Pan's Labyrinth\" and the \"Hellboy\" series. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. A few weeks ago, our director, Roberta, gave me a new album by a band I'd never heard of and said, you have to listen to this. So I did, and I thought it was pretty great. The band is called Ranky Tanky. That's a Gullah expression that, loosely translated, means work it or get funky. Gullah is the culture that developed among the slaves and their descendants living on the South Carolina coast and Sea Islands, a culture influenced by West Africa. Gullah culture comes with its own dialect, food traditions and music. The members of Ranky Tanky are from South Carolina. They perform songs that come out of or became popular in Gullah culture, including spirituals, dance music and children's rhymes. Ranky Tanky is made up of four musicians who started playing together nearly 20 years ago, then went their separate ways and reunited for Ranky Tanky and lead singer Quiana Parler. She's performed everything from gospel to pop and R&B. She studied with an opera singer as a child and got pretty close to being a finalist in the second season of \"American Idol.\" She's joining us along with guitarist and singer Clay Ross, who started the band, and trumpeter and singer Charlton Singleton, whose family is from one of the South Carolina islands. They're going to perform some of their music for us. But let's start with a track from their debut album \"Ranky Tanky.\" This is \"That's Alright.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 1, "text": "That's \"That's Alright\" from the new album \"Ranky Tanky,\" which is also the name of the band. Three of the members of the band are with us. Clay Ross, Quiana Parler, Charlton Singleton, welcome to FRESH AIR. It is such a pleasure to have you here. And thank you for bringing your instruments.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Mama, how you walk in line. Your (unintelligible) may slip and your soul may lull. Says my soul going to sit up in the kingdom. That's all right. That's all right. That's all right. That's a"}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 2, "text": "My pleasure. So Clay, you organized the band. It was your idea to do this band playing songs from Gullah culture.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having us."}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 3, "text": "But you are not from that culture. (Laugher) You grew up in Piedmont, N.C.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, ma'am."}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 4, "text": "You moved to Charleston, S.C., for college. I should also mention you're white. You're the white member of the band.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I'm not. Yeah, it's a little bit..."}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 5, "text": "So how come you're the one who started the band?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm white? What? Are you - no, I am white. You got me."}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 6, "text": "OK, let me stop you there. So Charlton, when Clay was bugging you to do Gullah music, what was your reaction?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And they became..."}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 7, "text": "Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, at first, back then, what he's talking about now, he was just trying to learn how to play jazz."}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 8, "text": "So Quiana, you didn't grow up with Gullah culture either, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, think about it. Think about it. I mean, just - that's how we grew up, so it was every day. So, you know, you just - after a while, you figure, you know, everybody knows it or that's just"}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 9, "text": "Yeah, you mentioned the kids games. And a couple of the songs on your new \"Ranky Tanky\" album have kids' rhymes in them that are very rhythmic.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, but they're also little kids' games and things like that. But that's part of the culture. It's all wrapped up in that Gullah culture."}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 10, "text": "And so can you talk about and maybe sing a few of those rhymes and tell us how they figure into the music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 11, "text": "Oh, great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) One-ry, two-ry, dicker-y seven. Halli-boo, crack-iboo, 10, 11. Pee, po, must be done. Twinkle, twangle, 21. One saw, two saw, ziggy-zaw-zoe. Bobtail dominicker, deedle daw doe. Hail 'em, sca"}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 12, "text": "So, let's hear \"Ranky Tanky.\" The title track of the new album \"Ranky Tanky\" is also the name of the band. A few of the members of the band are my guests - Clay Ross, who we'll hear singing lead vocal - he's also the guitarist - Quiana Parler, who's actually the main singer with the group, and Charlton Singleton, who's featured on trumpet and also vocals.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know, just with the lyrics on that. And actually, there are a few recordings out there of kids doing that, you know, as the game aspect. And the musicality from our side was taking that game an"}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 13, "text": "That's the title track of the album \"Ranky Tanky.\" Three of the members of the band Ranky Tanky are my guests - Clay Ross, who's a guitarist and singer, Quiana Parler, who's the main singer of the group, and Charlton Singleton, who's the trumpeter and also singer. So tell us about the rhymes in \"Ranky Tanky.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Who is the greatest? We are the greatest. Are you sure? Yeah. Positive? Yeah. Definitive? Yeah. All right. All right. Old lady come from Booster, had two hens and a rooster. The rooster died"}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 14, "text": "OK so, we're talking about how Gullah music has rhythms that are maybe a little different from what you were used to playing in bands. Though Charlton, this music was always a part of your life. But as the trumpeter, Charlton, is there anything unique to what you're doing on trumpet that is different when you're playing music from the Gullah tradition than when you're playing in a jazz band?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, if you listen to the lyrics of the song where it says, old lady come from Booster, had two hens and a rooster. The rooster died. The old lady cried. Now she don't eat eggs like she used to. Now, i"}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 15, "text": "Not much, huh?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not too..."}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 16, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not too..."}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 17, "text": "I'll tell you what. Let's take a short break here. And then we'll talk some more, and we'll hear some music. If you're just joining us, my guests are three of the members of the band Ranky Tanky, which plays music from the Gullah tradition, but in a contemporary setting. My guests are Clay Ross, who's a guitarist and singer, Quiana Parler, who's the main singer with the band, and Charlton Singleton, who is a trumpeter and singer. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...different. Not - it's not - it's not that terribly different. I grew up - you know, my first music lesson I can recall - or at least that I think it was my first music lesson - was actually from my"}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. My guests are trumpeter Charlton Singleton, guitarist Clay Ross and singer Quiana Parler, three members of the band Ranky Tanky, which plays contemporary versions of music from the Gullah culture of the South Carolina coast and Sea Islands. Their debut album is called \"Ranky Tanky.\" When we left off, we were talking about Gullah rhythms. Clay, did you have to adapt to that rhythm playing guitar with Ranky Tanky?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...different. Not - it's not - it's not that terribly different. I grew up - you know, my first music lesson I can recall - or at least that I think it was my first music lesson - was actually from my"}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 19, "text": "Maybe you can play some of the Brazilian music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, that's a good question. You know, I think that the - coming back to this project after years of doing other kinds of music was really the only way that it would've worked. And so, a lot of t"}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 20, "text": "...Brazilian rhythms that you play and compare that to what you're doing with Ranky Tanky.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 21, "text": "Yeah, I hear that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Let me give you an example. So there's, like, a forro rhythm, like, a - (playing guitar, singing in Portuguese). And this rhythm is the same rhythm that I use a lot in Ranky Tanky. So I got - (s"}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 22, "text": "My guests are three members of the band Ranky Tanky, which is also the name of their debut album. We'll talk more, and they'll play more music after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And the way that they play, it's like that rhythmic core and that cell of the rhythm is there. But the way that they do it - they'll, like, let the beat breathe in this really organic way, and there'l"}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross back with three members of the band Ranky Tanky, which plays contemporary versions of music from the Gullah culture, the culture of the slaves and their descendants from the South Carolina coast and Sea Islands. Their debut album is called \"Ranky Tanky.\" My guests are lead singer Quiana Parler, guitarist Clay Ross and trumpeter Charlton Singleton. So Quiana, when you were introduced to Gullah music through joining this band, what's an example of a song that you fell in love with that you had not heard before?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Turtle dove done drooped his wings. Turtle dove done drooped his wings. Turtle dove done drooped his wings, went onto Zion hill to sing. Adam and Eve, door to door, Adam and Eve, don't tell "}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 24, "text": "I'll stop you right there because I love your version of \"O Death.\" Would you be willing to sing it for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I do. Clay..."}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 25, "text": "And does anybody know the lineage of the song? Like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, no problem."}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 26, "text": "...Because I've heard it sung in other traditions too. I've heard it just as, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know..."}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 27, "text": "Like, a Southern Appalachian song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's such a good question, and..."}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 28, "text": "Exactly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, and I - well, yeah, like Ralph Stanley's, you know..."}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 29, "text": "Please sing it for us. It's so beautiful, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, one thing that's very - I guess in an African-American church. We celebrate death. You know, you're home going. It's a celebration because you're going to meet Jesus. But we also ask, can yo"}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 30, "text": "Oh, gosh, that sounds so great. That's Quiana Parler singing - Clay Ross on guitar, Charlton Singleton, trumpet. What kind of songs, Quiana, did you sing in church?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Oh, Death walked up to the sinner gate, said believed you have waited now a little too late. Your fever is well past 102, a narrow chance that you'll ever pull through. Cried, oh, Death. Oh,"}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 31, "text": "Well, apparently everybody knew you had a great voice when you were very young because I know when you were 8 you started taking singing lessons with an opera singer. What do you learn when you're 8 and taking singing lessons?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 32, "text": "Charlton, you actually grew up in Gullah culture. Your grandfather is from one of the Sea Islands off the South Carolina coast.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I didn't realize how much I learned until this band. You know, she was a Metropolitan Opera singer by the name of June Bonner. And I utilized so much of what she's taught me now. And that's "}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 33, "text": "There's a song on the album called \"Watch That Star\" that you have a personal connection to through your grandfather. I'm going to ask you to do that song. But before that, I want to hear the story behind the song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 34, "text": "Quiana, can you sing the Ranky Tanky version of \"Watch That Star\" - just a verse or two of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Big Daddy, as he was affectionately called, when he was a young man, and he was seeking the Lord, he told us - his kids, you know, my father, my aunts and uncles and everybody else, all the gran"}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 35, "text": "Aw, that's beautiful. Thank you so much for doing that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) The day has passed and gone. The evening shades are pinned. All my way, I remember well the night of death is near. Watch that star. See how it runs. Watch that star. See how it runs. If the"}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 36, "text": "Your harmony's so great together. Did you automatically know how to harmonize with each other? Or did you have to like work it out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 37, "text": "Well, a - and I imagine a lot of people say, what's a trumpet doing playing Gullah music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In your contemporary way - yeah, you youngsters, you young kids out there."}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 38, "text": "Why don't we take a short break here? And then we'll be right back and hear more music. If you're just joining us, my guests are three members of the band Ranky Tanky, which plays contemporary versions of Gullah music, music from the Georgia and South Carolina Sea Islands. My guests are Clay Ross, who's a guitarist and singer, Quiana Parler, who is the group's main singer, and Charlton Singleton, who's a trumpeter and singer. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. You know, because - you know, like Quiana said, it was just hand claps and you stomping your feet, and that was the music - your voice, your hands and your feet."}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 39, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guests are three members of the band Ranky Tanky. And that's also the title of their new album. They're a band that plays music from the Gullah culture, the culture of the islands off the coast of South Carolina and Georgia. This is Gullah music but in a really contemporary setting - with trumpet, which is played by my guest, Charlton Singleton, guitar played by my guest Clay Ross, and Quiana Parler is the main singer with the band. She's also with us. Charlton, since you grew up in South Carolina and your grandfather was from one of the Sea Islands - I think you said that he moved to the mainland because of a hurricane - did hurricanes figure a lot in family lore?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. You know, because - you know, like Quiana said, it was just hand claps and you stomping your feet, and that was the music - your voice, your hands and your feet."}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 40, "text": "Where you grew up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Been In The Storm\" - when - you know, I get chills every time I hear Quiana sing \"Been In The Storm,\" which is on our album. And, you know, it's just - it's a powerful song. But yeah, when my grandfa"}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 41, "text": "So since you mentioned \"Been In The Storm,\" Quiana, would you sing a little bit of it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Where - that's where I grew up, yeah, and..."}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 42, "text": "Thank you. Songs like that that you just sang and songs like \"O Death\" that you sang for us earlier - those are just, like, emotionally devastating songs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right. (Singing) I've been in the storm so long. You know that I, I've been in the storm so long. I'm crying, oh, Lord. Give me more time to pray. You know I've been in the storm so very long."}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 43, "text": "What...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 44, "text": "What goes through your mind or your body as you sing songs like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very."}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 45, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I just lost it. Like, it was just - no, that - it was \"That's Alright,\" which is about death as well. And it was suddenly that we lost her, and it was just so hard. It was one time I could not be "}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 46, "text": "You know, just to change subjects just a little bit, Charlton, you've been playing in the studio today. You've been using a mute. And the mute that you're using is actually I think a plunger, right? Is it...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think sometimes bringing - these songs, they bring peoples in touch and so close to pain and their suffering that is just the common thread of all humanity. And everybody deals with that in one way "}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 47, "text": "Is it a sink plunger or a toilet plunger?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is, yes."}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 48, "text": "OK. I love mutes. Can you do some fancy mute thing for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is for a sink. For a trumpet and the size of the bell that I have, yes, a sink plunger is the best fit. If you see a trombonist, they would have one that was the size for a toilet."}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 49, "text": "Great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right. (Playing muted trumpet)."}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 50, "text": ". It has been so great to speak with the three of you and to hear you sing and play. I'm really grateful, and I want to thank you so much. And before you go, you have to tell us, what does Ranky Tanky mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right. (Playing muted trumpet)."}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 51, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ranky Tanky means get funky."}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 52, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It means get funky. Yeah. Shake it."}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 53, "text": "And Ranky Tanky is the name of the band and the name of their new album. So Clay Ross, Quiana Parler, Charlton Singleton, thank you all so much, and good luck to you and the band. It's been great to have you here.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She's like, OK."}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 54, "text": "And I want to end with the final song on your album because it's such the obvious song to end with. It is called, \"Goodbye Song.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's really an honor. Thank you."}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 55, "text": ". So thank you all.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's really an honor. Thank you."}
{"id": "569965570", "date": "2017-12-12", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 56, "text": "The Ranky Tanky band members joined us from the Argot Studio in New York. Our thanks to engineer Ivan Koreyev (ph). This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Got to be going. Goodbye. Got to be leaving. Goodbye. So nice to meet you. Goodbye. So nice to see you. Goodbye. Got to be going. Goodbye. Got to be leaving. Goodbye. Can't wait to meet you."}
{"id": "577012780", "date": "2018-01-10", "guest": "Renee Victor", "title": "'Coco' Filmmakers Explore The 'Connection To Loved Ones Past'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "577012780", "date": "2018-01-10", "guest": "Renee Victor", "title": "'Coco' Filmmakers Explore The 'Connection To Loved Ones Past'", "question_index": 1, "text": "The Disney-Pixar film \"Coco\" just won the Golden Globe for best animated film. It was co-written and co-directed by my guests Lee Unkrich and Adrian Molina. Unkrich also directed \"Toy Story 3\" and co-directed \"Finding Nemo,\" \"Monsters, Inc.\" and \"Toy Story 2.\" Molina worked on \"Ratatouille,\" \"Toy Story 3\" and \"Monsters University.\" \"Coco\" is told from the point of view of a 12-year-old boy named Miguel who lives in a small Mexican town and loves to play guitar.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Miguel Rivera) Love you, mama. I am not like the rest of my family."}
{"id": "577012780", "date": "2018-01-10", "guest": "Renee Victor", "title": "'Coco' Filmmakers Explore The 'Connection To Loved Ones Past'", "question_index": 2, "text": "After forbidding Miguel to play music, his family has been preparing him to enter their shoemaking business. The film takes place on the Day of the Dead, the holiday in which the living honor their dead loved ones. For reasons I won't give away, Miguel is transported to the Land of the Dead, where he meets his great-great-grandparents and other long-gone relatives and hopes to learn why he's obsessed with music and why his family forbids music. Miguel has to figure out if it's possible to be true to himself while remaining true to his family - the living and the dead. The movie is also about how we keep the dead alive by keeping them in our memories. Lee Unkrich, Adrian Molina, welcome to FRESH AIR, and congratulations on the Golden Globe. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Miguel Rivera) She rolled up her sleeves, and she learned to make shoes."}
{"id": "577012780", "date": "2018-01-10", "guest": "Renee Victor", "title": "'Coco' Filmmakers Explore The 'Connection To Loved Ones Past'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Yeah. So I want to start by talking about Day of the Dead because that's the holiday that is supposed to unite the family, the ancestors as well as the living people. So what is the Day of the Dead?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, thank you."}
{"id": "577012780", "date": "2018-01-10", "guest": "Renee Victor", "title": "'Coco' Filmmakers Explore The 'Connection To Loved Ones Past'", "question_index": 4, "text": "And Adrian, has the holiday been celebrated in your family?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the Day the Dead, or Dia de Muertos or Dia de los Muertos, depending on where you live and where you grew up, is a tradition in Mexico that happens once a year. It's the first couple of days of "}
{"id": "577012780", "date": "2018-01-10", "guest": "Renee Victor", "title": "'Coco' Filmmakers Explore The 'Connection To Loved Ones Past'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Is your father of Mexican descent, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I was growing up, no, not so much. My mother is from Mexico, but where she was raised, they didn't celebrate Dia de Muertos the same way that we saw when we did our research in Oaxaca or Michoaca"}
{"id": "577012780", "date": "2018-01-10", "guest": "Renee Victor", "title": "'Coco' Filmmakers Explore The 'Connection To Loved Ones Past'", "question_index": 6, "text": "So I'm wondering what your parents thought about you doing a movie about a holiday that they don't really celebrate.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He is. He is half Mexican."}
{"id": "577012780", "date": "2018-01-10", "guest": "Renee Victor", "title": "'Coco' Filmmakers Explore The 'Connection To Loved Ones Past'", "question_index": 7, "text": "So Lee Unkrich, what does Day of the Dead mean to you? Because you're not Mexican.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think they learned a lot about the details of it, but I think they were also very touched and proud to see, just in general, their Mexican heritage shown on screen, to see their son exploring "}
{"id": "577012780", "date": "2018-01-10", "guest": "Renee Victor", "title": "'Coco' Filmmakers Explore The 'Connection To Loved Ones Past'", "question_index": 8, "text": "How far?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I am not. I am far from Mexican. I actually did..."}
{"id": "577012780", "date": "2018-01-10", "guest": "Renee Victor", "title": "'Coco' Filmmakers Explore The 'Connection To Loved Ones Past'", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I am not. I am far from Mexican. I actually did..."}
{"id": "577012780", "date": "2018-01-10", "guest": "Renee Victor", "title": "'Coco' Filmmakers Explore The 'Connection To Loved Ones Past'", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I did one of those ancestry.com kits, and I was praying that I would have just even a tiny bit of myself that was of Mexican descent."}
{"id": "577012780", "date": "2018-01-10", "guest": "Renee Victor", "title": "'Coco' Filmmakers Explore The 'Connection To Loved Ones Past'", "question_index": 11, "text": "An ofrenda - correct me if I'm wrong - is, like, an altar on which you put the offerings to your ancestors to remember them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But it didn't work out that way. I'm very, very much Eastern European Jewish, so no Mexican blood in me. You know, so, you know, I grew up Jewish in Cleveland - in the suburbs of Cleveland. And, you k"}
{"id": "577012780", "date": "2018-01-10", "guest": "Renee Victor", "title": "'Coco' Filmmakers Explore The 'Connection To Loved Ones Past'", "question_index": 12, "text": "So I'm sorry to hear about your father, Lee.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. The offerings, a photo..."}
{"id": "577012780", "date": "2018-01-10", "guest": "Renee Victor", "title": "'Coco' Filmmakers Explore The 'Connection To Loved Ones Past'", "question_index": 13, "text": "That must have been beautiful for him since it's about honoring your family and honoring ancestors although it takes a lot of twists before getting there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you. Yeah, he was quite old. Well, I mean, you know, he's - I think he's about 93 years old. And he, mentally, was completely there all the way till the end, but physically, he'd been declin"}
{"id": "577012780", "date": "2018-01-10", "guest": "Renee Victor", "title": "'Coco' Filmmakers Explore The 'Connection To Loved Ones Past'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, why don't we take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guests are Adrian Molina and Lee Unkrich. And they co-wrote and co-directed \"Coco,\" the latest Pixar Disney animated film. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Which was very - if you knew my dad, that was very my dad. But I - through that, I knew he was very proud and very happy that he got to see the film."}
{"id": "577012780", "date": "2018-01-10", "guest": "Renee Victor", "title": "'Coco' Filmmakers Explore The 'Connection To Loved Ones Past'", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guests are Lee Unkrich and Adrian Molina. They co-wrote and co-directed the latest Disney Pixar animated film \"Coco,\" which is about a boy in Mexico and his family. The family doesn't want him to play music, but that's all he wants to do. As we were talking about Day of the Dead, which is the ceremony that the movie is focused around, in the movie you depict the afterlife. You depict the ancestors who are now skeletons and who are being summoned back for the Day of the Dead. In a lot of Christian imagery and just American pop imagery in general, the afterlife is like, you know, in the clouds with like angels and harps and, you know, angels flying around. The afterlife as depicted in the film is skeletons now walking around in the Land of the Dead. And they know each other. They talk to each other. They have parties. They play music. How did you decide how you were going to depict this afterlife that you came up with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Which was very - if you knew my dad, that was very my dad. But I - through that, I knew he was very proud and very happy that he got to see the film."}
{"id": "577012780", "date": "2018-01-10", "guest": "Renee Victor", "title": "'Coco' Filmmakers Explore The 'Connection To Loved Ones Past'", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I think most human beings think about the concept of an afterlife, regardless of their religion or non-religion. And they think they want to know what that place might look like. And so the "}
{"id": "577012780", "date": "2018-01-10", "guest": "Renee Victor", "title": "'Coco' Filmmakers Explore The 'Connection To Loved Ones Past'", "question_index": 17, "text": "The idea of this like intermediate place where the dead are still kind of alive, it's based, as you said Lee, on the idea that you remain alive in some way as long as you are alive in memory - as long as there are people who are remembering you - that you still in some ways are alive. When the people who remember you die or when the living just forget you, then the dead move to like the final death. And they kind of disappear from this intermediary place between life and death. And it's a really interesting way of looking at it - that the afterlife is memory. It's the memory of the living. Adrian, can you talk about coming up with that idea?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They don't need safety items. You know, if somebody falls off the top of a building, it's more of an inconvenience than anything."}
{"id": "577012780", "date": "2018-01-10", "guest": "Renee Victor", "title": "'Coco' Filmmakers Explore The 'Connection To Loved Ones Past'", "question_index": 18, "text": "So I want to mention here that there's a lot of really funny things in the film. Like in the world of the dead, where the dead are remembered and are therefore kept alive, but they're still in the Land of the Dead, there's these checkpoints. So that on the Day of the Dead, when they're brought back by the living to the world of the living, they go through this kind of, you know, guard gate or checkpoint. And if they're having trouble going through, there's the department of family reunions that they can", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was something that we had learned in our research - this thought that there are not just one death that there are three deaths that a soul can experience. One is when your heart stops beating. Th"}
{"id": "577012780", "date": "2018-01-10", "guest": "Renee Victor", "title": "'Coco' Filmmakers Explore The 'Connection To Loved Ones Past'", "question_index": 19, "text": "go to for help. So do you want to talk about coming up with all of these kind of humorous touches in depicting this transitional place?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was something that we had learned in our research - this thought that there are not just one death that there are three deaths that a soul can experience. One is when your heart stops beating. Th"}
{"id": "577012780", "date": "2018-01-10", "guest": "Renee Victor", "title": "'Coco' Filmmakers Explore The 'Connection To Loved Ones Past'", "question_index": 20, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Every film that we've made at Pixar is different. You know, we've made some movies where we have a really funny idea and we have an idea that's inherently, you know, just rife with humor, and then we "}
{"id": "577012780", "date": "2018-01-10", "guest": "Renee Victor", "title": "'Coco' Filmmakers Explore The 'Connection To Loved Ones Past'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Now, this is a family film. Adults are supposed to bring children to this film, though you don't need children to enjoy the film as an adult. But it has to be child-friendly, and so much of the movie is about death and the dead and people who might be dead soon and how that's seen through a child's eyes. So you couldn't make it like a terrifying story", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, that would have been easy. You know, I could have just put a bunch of gag people in a room and come up with silly kind of Land of the Dead versions of things that we have. But my personal tast"}
{"id": "577012780", "date": "2018-01-10", "guest": "Renee Victor", "title": "'Coco' Filmmakers Explore The 'Connection To Loved Ones Past'", "question_index": 22, "text": "about the dead. So what message did you want children to take away from it? And what are some of the things that you did in the film so that, you know, children would enjoy it and be comfortable with the story that you were telling?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, that would have been easy. You know, I could have just put a bunch of gag people in a room and come up with silly kind of Land of the Dead versions of things that we have. But my personal tast"}
{"id": "577012780", "date": "2018-01-10", "guest": "Renee Victor", "title": "'Coco' Filmmakers Explore The 'Connection To Loved Ones Past'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Well, I saw it without kids and enjoyed it very much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm glad you said what you did about you don't have to have kids with you to go see the movie because I can't tell you how many people have said to me, oh, I haven't seen your film yet because I"}
{"id": "577012780", "date": "2018-01-10", "guest": "Renee Victor", "title": "'Coco' Filmmakers Explore The 'Connection To Loved Ones Past'", "question_index": 24, "text": "My guests are Lee Unkrich and Adrian Molina, the co-writers and co-directors of the Disney Pixar animated film \"Coco.\" We'll talk more after a break. And Lloyd Schwartz will review a new box set of live Maria Callas recordings. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. That's like my biggest pet peeve is that people somehow think that we're making kids movies and that they're embarrassed to go see the movies about kids. I just want to pull my hair out. Bu"}
{"id": "577012780", "date": "2018-01-10", "guest": "Renee Victor", "title": "'Coco' Filmmakers Explore The 'Connection To Loved Ones Past'", "question_index": 25, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross back with Lee Unkrich and Adrian Molina, the co-writers and co-directors of the Disney Pixar film \"Coco,\" which just won the Golden Globe for Best Animated Film. It's set in a small town in Mexico on the Day of the Dead. The main character, Miguel, is a 12-year-old boy who's obsessed with playing guitar. So in the movie, music is forbidden in the boy's family because the boy's great-great grandfather walked out on the family to follow his dream of being a great musician, a famous musician. And this 12-year-old boy has a gift for music but he's forbidden to play. And he feels like he's being forced to choose between music and family. So it's an interesting premise for a family film since you have parents and children watching it together. But Miguel comes to - Miguel, the boy, comes to believe that his late great-great-grandfather, the person who walked out on the family to become a famous musician, is actually Ernesto de la Cruz, who became Mexico's most beloved musician in the movie - this is a fictional character. So, you know, Ernesto becomes, like, a music sensation and a movie star. So I want to play a song from here, and this is \"Remember Me,\" which is done several ways. At first, we just hear it as a big Ernesto de la Cruz production number with, like, dancers on, like, a staircase, and he's kind of on this, like, moving staircase being raised higher and higher. And everybody's wearing brightly colored costumes. And then later, we hear it as a much more kind of somber, nostalgic song. So I want to play a little bit of both of them back to back just so we can hear the way that you've come up with a song that was flexible enough to be sung both ways. And this was written by Bobby Lopez and Kristen Anderson-Lopez. They're married. He did the music for \"Avenue Q\" and for \"Book Of Mormon.\" And together, they did the music for \"Frozen.\" And here's two versions of the song that they did for your film, \"Coco.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. That's like my biggest pet peeve is that people somehow think that we're making kids movies and that they're embarrassed to go see the movies about kids. I just want to pull my hair out. Bu"}
{"id": "577012780", "date": "2018-01-10", "guest": "Renee Victor", "title": "'Coco' Filmmakers Explore The 'Connection To Loved Ones Past'", "question_index": 26, "text": "So that's two versions of the song \"Remember Me\" from the film \"Coco.\" The first one sung by Benjamin Bratt, the second by Gael Garcia Bernal. So when you told the Lopezes that you needed a song that could be a signature song for the film, what did you tell them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Hector, singing) Remember me. Though I have to say goodbye, remember me. Don't let it make you cry. For even if I'm far away, I hold you in my heart. I sing a secret song to you each night we are "}
{"id": "577012780", "date": "2018-01-10", "guest": "Renee Victor", "title": "'Coco' Filmmakers Explore The 'Connection To Loved Ones Past'", "question_index": 27, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here, and then we'll take a break. If you're just joining us, my guests are Lee Unkrich and Adrian Molina. They co-wrote and co-directed the Disney-Pixar animated film \"Coco.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The earliest notion was this idea that there would be a song that was kind of Ernesto de la Cruz's signature song that would be a big, splashy, kind of showstopping number but that we could then hear "}
{"id": "577012780", "date": "2018-01-10", "guest": "Renee Victor", "title": "'Coco' Filmmakers Explore The 'Connection To Loved Ones Past'", "question_index": 28, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guests are Lee Unkrich and Adrian Molina. They co-wrote and co-directed \"Coco,\" the animated film that just won best animated film at the Golden Globes. Let's talk a little bit about the actual animation for \"Coco.\" What was one of the most challenging things that you had to do to make the film work?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The earliest notion was this idea that there would be a song that was kind of Ernesto de la Cruz's signature song that would be a big, splashy, kind of showstopping number but that we could then hear "}
{"id": "577012780", "date": "2018-01-10", "guest": "Renee Victor", "title": "'Coco' Filmmakers Explore The 'Connection To Loved Ones Past'", "question_index": 29, "text": "Why are skeletons hard?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there were a lot of things that were challenging about the movie. I mean, the scope of the story was huge. Just visually, it was a lot to put on screen. The skeletons were certainly a challenge."}
{"id": "577012780", "date": "2018-01-10", "guest": "Renee Victor", "title": "'Coco' Filmmakers Explore The 'Connection To Loved Ones Past'", "question_index": 30, "text": "So the boy at the center of the film, the 12-year-old boy is played by Anthony Gonzalez. How did you find him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, we would play with those - you know those little toys that - where you push the bottom and the toys kind of collapse? I don't know if you know what I'm talking about. They're little to"}
{"id": "577012780", "date": "2018-01-10", "guest": "Renee Victor", "title": "'Coco' Filmmakers Explore The 'Connection To Loved Ones Past'", "question_index": 31, "text": "Oh, of course. Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was very difficult. We auditioned hundreds of kids all over the United States and in Mexico trying to find our Miguel. And thankfully, one day, Anthony Gonzalez came into our lives. I think he was "}
{"id": "577012780", "date": "2018-01-10", "guest": "Renee Victor", "title": "'Coco' Filmmakers Explore The 'Connection To Loved Ones Past'", "question_index": 32, "text": "Since you worked on \"Coco\" for six years, it means you started way before Donald Trump ran for president, let alone was elected president. It was years before you knew he'd be calling to spend billions of dollars building a border wall between the U.S. and Mexico, years before he said that Mexico sends us their worst, the rapists. So I'm wondering if the meaning of doing a film set in Mexico, about Mexican people, about families, if the importance of that and if the meaning of it changed after the campaign and the election?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So his voice never changed while we were making the film, but he was growing. His body was physically getting bigger. So by the time we were finishing recording with him, his voice actually was soundi"}
{"id": "577012780", "date": "2018-01-10", "guest": "Renee Victor", "title": "'Coco' Filmmakers Explore The 'Connection To Loved Ones Past'", "question_index": 33, "text": "Well, Lee Unkrich, Adrian Molina, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's a long time coming for Latinos to see themselves on screen represented in a way that they can be proud of and in a way that reflects the things that they value about their culture and they "}
{"id": "577012780", "date": "2018-01-10", "guest": "Renee Victor", "title": "'Coco' Filmmakers Explore The 'Connection To Loved Ones Past'", "question_index": 34, "text": "Lee Unkrich and Adrian Molina co-wrote and co-directed the Disney-Pixar film \"Coco,\" which on Sunday won the Golden Globe for best animated film. After we take a short break, Lloyd Schwartz will review a new box set of live Maria Callas recordings. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. It's so fun to be here."}
{"id": "584243140", "date": "2018-02-08", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "With Closed-Circuit TV, Satellites And Phones, Millions Of Cameras Are Watching", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest Robert Draper says one of the greatest threats to our democracy is gerrymandering, in which the party in power in a state redraws the map of election districts to give the advantage to that party's candidates. Since districts are redrawn only every 10 years following the census, gerrymandering can almost guarantee that the majority party will stay in power. There are a couple of gerrymandering cases currently before the Supreme Court. Draper has reported on gerrymandering, and we'll talk about that a little later. First, we're going to talk about his new article \"They Are Watching You - And Everything Else On The Planet\" published in this month's National Geographic. It's about state-of-the-art surveillance from closed-circuit TV to drones and satellites and the questions these surveillance technologies raise about privacy. As part of his research, he spent time in surveillance control rooms in London. And he went to a tech company in San Francisco whose mission is to image the entire Earth every day. Draper is a contributing writer for National Geographic and a writer at large for The New York Times Magazine. Robert Draper, welcome back to FRESH AIR. So let's start with surveillance. Why did you choose England as the place to report on surveillance?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "584243140", "date": "2018-02-08", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "With Closed-Circuit TV, Satellites And Phones, Millions Of Cameras Are Watching", "question_index": 1, "text": "So you spent some time in the closed-circuit TV control room - the CCTV control room - in Islington, which is a borough of England. Describe what you saw in that CCTV control room.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, England has become kind of an obvious focal point to talk about surveillance. It's become, in a way, a petri dish for the subject, I suppose, for a couple reasons. First of all, the U.K. is wher"}
{"id": "584243140", "date": "2018-02-08", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "With Closed-Circuit TV, Satellites And Phones, Millions Of Cameras Are Watching", "question_index": 2, "text": "When you say moped thieves, they stole the mopeds or they're using the mopeds to steal things from other people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. This control room is nondescript. Of course, you can't see anything from the outside once you're inside. It's as you imagine a control room would be in that it has a bank of display cameras and a"}
{"id": "584243140", "date": "2018-02-08", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "With Closed-Circuit TV, Satellites And Phones, Millions Of Cameras Are Watching", "question_index": 3, "text": "So when the cameras were watching these two young men on their mopeds, do the cameras move? Do the people in the control room control the cameras? Are there so many cameras that you can see continuous action from one camera to the next?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Both, actually. The mopeds were presumably ill-gotten by them and, indeed, there was a ring of that activity going on in Islington during the period of time that I was there. And they would be then us"}
{"id": "584243140", "date": "2018-02-08", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "With Closed-Circuit TV, Satellites And Phones, Millions Of Cameras Are Watching", "question_index": 4, "text": "How did it feel for you to kind of be spying on these two men?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Both actually take place, Terry. First, the cameras can zoom in and out, can pan up to a certain point. But then once the two moped drivers leave an area beyond which the camera can see them, then one"}
{"id": "584243140", "date": "2018-02-08", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "With Closed-Circuit TV, Satellites And Phones, Millions Of Cameras Are Watching", "question_index": 5, "text": "Well, it makes me wonder, if profiling enters the picture, what happens?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's an interesting question. And at first, it was kind of exciting, I have to say. You know, you feel like you are - you have walked into a portal into a person's private life. And you can see thei"}
{"id": "584243140", "date": "2018-02-08", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "With Closed-Circuit TV, Satellites And Phones, Millions Of Cameras Are Watching", "question_index": 6, "text": "Say these two guys on mopeds were caught in the act of stealing an iPhone or committing another crime, then what? How do the people in the control room - in the CCTV control room - communicate to the police and catch the guys in the act? And how is the footage used? I imagine all of this video's being recorded. Is the intention to use that in a court case if it goes to court?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Yeah. In this particular case, Islington feels justified in monitoring such individuals because there are, in fact, established rings of motorcycle thieves, of purse snatchers, of iPhone snatche"}
{"id": "584243140", "date": "2018-02-08", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "With Closed-Circuit TV, Satellites And Phones, Millions Of Cameras Are Watching", "question_index": 7, "text": "Is there any equivalent in England to our constitutional privacy precautions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All of the above. The way it worked when I was watching the Islington monitors watch these two guys on motorcycles was that once they saw the activity in place, they contacted the police and said that"}
{"id": "584243140", "date": "2018-02-08", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "With Closed-Circuit TV, Satellites And Phones, Millions Of Cameras Are Watching", "question_index": 8, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Robert Draper. He's a contributing writer for National Geographic. And his piece in the February edition is called \"They Are Watching You - And Everything Else On The Planet.\" We'll talk more about surveillance. And we're also going to talk about gerrymandering after we take a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There has been as a result of the Snowden disclosures - the Edward Snowden disclosures that their own spy agencies were retaining data on people. A debate ensued - but frankly, not a very vigorous deb"}
{"id": "584243140", "date": "2018-02-08", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "With Closed-Circuit TV, Satellites And Phones, Millions Of Cameras Are Watching", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is journalist Robert Draper. He's a writer at large for The New York Times Magazine and a contributing writer for National Geographic. His article in the February issue of National Geographic is about surveillance. It focuses on London, and it's called They Are Watching You - And Everything Else On The Planet.\" So what other questions did all the surveillance that you witnessed raise in your mind?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There has been as a result of the Snowden disclosures - the Edward Snowden disclosures that their own spy agencies were retaining data on people. A debate ensued - but frankly, not a very vigorous deb"}
{"id": "584243140", "date": "2018-02-08", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "With Closed-Circuit TV, Satellites And Phones, Millions Of Cameras Are Watching", "question_index": 10, "text": "Is there any evidence in London that all of the surveillance through CCTV has helped either prevent a terrorist attack or help identify attackers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, a bunch of different things, I suppose. I mean, one of them is that Orwell had it, I suppose, half right. We're being watched more encompassingly (ph) and in ways far more probing than the autho"}
{"id": "584243140", "date": "2018-02-08", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "With Closed-Circuit TV, Satellites And Phones, Millions Of Cameras Are Watching", "question_index": 11, "text": "So we've talked about surveillance in London. What's some of the state-of-the-art stuff going on, surveillance wise, here in the U.S.?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No - simply no. There is really no evidence that all of these CTVs prevent crimes of any kind, much less terrorist attacks. Now, what is certainly true is that they have become invaluable as an invest"}
{"id": "584243140", "date": "2018-02-08", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "With Closed-Circuit TV, Satellites And Phones, Millions Of Cameras Are Watching", "question_index": 12, "text": "My guest is Robert Draper. His article in the current issue of National Geographic about state-of-the-art surveillance is called \"They Are Watching You - And Everything Else On The Planet.\" We'll talk more about surveillance, and we'll discuss another subject he's reported on, partisan gerrymandering, after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. I mean, what we've really been talking about is kind of ground-level surveillance, Terry. But, the reality is, that barely encompasses even a fraction of the degree to which we're being watched."}
{"id": "584243140", "date": "2018-02-08", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "With Closed-Circuit TV, Satellites And Phones, Millions Of Cameras Are Watching", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Robert Draper. He's a contributing writer for National Geographic and a writer at large for The New York Times Magazine. In a few minutes, we're going to talk about partisan gerrymandering. But first, let's pick up where we left off, talking about Draper's article in the current issue of National Geographic about state-of-the-art surveillance. As part of his research, he visited a San Francisco-based company called Planet founded by former NASA scientists. Planet has more than a 150 shoebox-size satellites in orbit snapping two images a second. When conditions are optimal, the company can photograph the Earth's entire landmass in a day. Draper says the company takes on humanitarian causes, like locating refugees, and also has corporate clients.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. I mean, what we've really been talking about is kind of ground-level surveillance, Terry. But, the reality is, that barely encompasses even a fraction of the degree to which we're being watched."}
{"id": "584243140", "date": "2018-02-08", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "With Closed-Circuit TV, Satellites And Phones, Millions Of Cameras Are Watching", "question_index": 14, "text": "Can you give us a sense of where these cameras are in the sky that are monitoring the entire Earth at the same time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For example, there are companies like hedge funds, and they'll want to know where commerce is being shipped. They'll want to know what kind of shipping activity is taking place, say, on the coast of t"}
{"id": "584243140", "date": "2018-02-08", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "With Closed-Circuit TV, Satellites And Phones, Millions Of Cameras Are Watching", "question_index": 15, "text": "These are private rockets.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. They're 300 miles away from us and they're deployed in all sorts of kind of crazy locations, and for that matter - in outer space - they're actually shot from rockets. They're sent out from rock"}
{"id": "584243140", "date": "2018-02-08", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "With Closed-Circuit TV, Satellites And Phones, Millions Of Cameras Are Watching", "question_index": 16, "text": "So what else are we kind of oblivious to that is surveilling us now in the states?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "These are private rockets. That's right. And it - and Planet now has actually built and commissioned its own rockets to be able to do this. In the past, they actually would have to pay someone else to"}
{"id": "584243140", "date": "2018-02-08", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "With Closed-Circuit TV, Satellites And Phones, Millions Of Cameras Are Watching", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is Robert Draper. He's a contributing writer for National Geographic and a writer at large for The New York Times Magazine. Robert, I want to talk with you about gerrymandering. You wrote a big piece about it for The Atlantic in 2012. You've been continuing to follow the story, and the story seems to be reaching something of a turning point now. There were several states that have cases before the state's highest court, or the Supreme Court. And it looks like we'll be getting some interesting precedents in the near future. But let me back up a step and start with, would you explain what gerrymandering is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that what we're oblivious to is that, among other things, cameras, such as what we were talking about in London, which were deployed in London originally for terrorist-catching purposes,"}
{"id": "584243140", "date": "2018-02-08", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "With Closed-Circuit TV, Satellites And Phones, Millions Of Cameras Are Watching", "question_index": 18, "text": "Do you have a favorite blatant example of gerrymandering?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure, Terry. Gerrymandering is basically the perversion of what's known as redistricting, which in turn is supposed to be about the reapportionment of all of our 435 congressional districts. The objec"}
{"id": "584243140", "date": "2018-02-08", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "With Closed-Circuit TV, Satellites And Phones, Millions Of Cameras Are Watching", "question_index": 19, "text": "So as part of successful gerrymandering about subdividing the voters from the other party and apportioning them in a spread out way so that they don't have a majority in any of the districts.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I have a lot of favorites in the state of North Carolina and in the state of Texas. One of my favorite examples is Texas congressional district 27, which is currently held by a Republican named "}
{"id": "584243140", "date": "2018-02-08", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "With Closed-Circuit TV, Satellites And Phones, Millions Of Cameras Are Watching", "question_index": 20, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Robert Draper, a writer at large for The New York Times Magazine and a contributing writer at National Geographic. We'll talk more about partisan gerrymandering after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Well, yeah, and the two terms of - are, Terry, known as packing and cracking. What you've just described is cracking, which basically is to take a voting bloc - let's say in Texas again - and yo"}
{"id": "584243140", "date": "2018-02-08", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "With Closed-Circuit TV, Satellites And Phones, Millions Of Cameras Are Watching", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Robert Draper, a writer at large for The New York Times Magazine. We're talking about partisan gerrymandering - when the party in power in a state redraws the electoral districts to favor that party. So how would you say gerrymandering has affected national politics?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Well, yeah, and the two terms of - are, Terry, known as packing and cracking. What you've just described is cracking, which basically is to take a voting bloc - let's say in Texas again - and yo"}
{"id": "584243140", "date": "2018-02-08", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "With Closed-Circuit TV, Satellites And Phones, Millions Of Cameras Are Watching", "question_index": 22, "text": "How do you think gerrymandering affects state politics?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's - it has become, I think, the most insidious force in America now. It - what it means is that each political party that dominates a particular state legislature seeks to win elections befor"}
{"id": "584243140", "date": "2018-02-08", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "With Closed-Circuit TV, Satellites And Phones, Millions Of Cameras Are Watching", "question_index": 23, "text": "So gerrymandering is kind of self-perpetuating.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "State House boundaries are drawn in the same way. And of course, they are drawn all for the same reason. If you have more, let's say, Republicans in the state legislature, that's only - that's not onl"}
{"id": "584243140", "date": "2018-02-08", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "With Closed-Circuit TV, Satellites And Phones, Millions Of Cameras Are Watching", "question_index": 24, "text": "The Supreme Court has a couple of gerrymandering cases before it. My understanding is that the Supreme Court has ruled in the past that you can't gerrymander based on race because that violates the Voting Rights Act, but now it's going to rule on partisan gerrymandering. So can you talk about what's at stake in the Supreme Court now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is self-perpetuating, and it's worth noting that though - it happens that the Republicans control the lion's share of the statehouses and thus, particularly since the early 2000s, have been aggress"}
{"id": "584243140", "date": "2018-02-08", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "With Closed-Circuit TV, Satellites And Phones, Millions Of Cameras Are Watching", "question_index": 25, "text": "Republicans have called on impeaching Democratic members of the state Supreme Court because of the way that they ruled on the gerrymandering case.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is interesting, Terry, because in Texas, for example, the defendants, the state legislature, had conceded, sure, we're doing this sort of partisan advantage, but we're not doing this by any means"}
{"id": "584243140", "date": "2018-02-08", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "With Closed-Circuit TV, Satellites And Phones, Millions Of Cameras Are Watching", "question_index": 26, "text": "That's a pretty strong reaction.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's exactly right. So they're..."}
{"id": "584243140", "date": "2018-02-08", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "With Closed-Circuit TV, Satellites And Phones, Millions Of Cameras Are Watching", "question_index": 27, "text": "So could the Republicans in Pennsylvania follow through on their threat to impeach Democratic members of the state Supreme Court?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's a pretty strong reaction, and it's clear what they're up to. But this notion that for simply saying, look, these maps were drawn in a way that is partisan, and for, further, to have the imp"}
{"id": "584243140", "date": "2018-02-08", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "With Closed-Circuit TV, Satellites And Phones, Millions Of Cameras Are Watching", "question_index": 28, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Robert Draper, a writer at large for The New York Times magazine and a contributing writer at National Geographic. We'll talk more about partisan gerrymandering after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They could. It's within their authority. It would be certainly unorthodox, and, as to whether they have the requisite numbers to pull off an impeachment, I'm not sure. It's also unclear to me whether "}
{"id": "584243140", "date": "2018-02-08", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "With Closed-Circuit TV, Satellites And Phones, Millions Of Cameras Are Watching", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. My guest is Robert Draper, a writer at large for The New York Times Magazine. We're talking about gerrymandering. There's a couple of cases about partisan gerrymandering currently before the U.S. Supreme Court. So what are the possible outcomes we might see from the Supreme Court, and how might that affect the future of redistricting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They could. It's within their authority. It would be certainly unorthodox, and, as to whether they have the requisite numbers to pull off an impeachment, I'm not sure. It's also unclear to me whether "}
{"id": "584243140", "date": "2018-02-08", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "With Closed-Circuit TV, Satellites And Phones, Millions Of Cameras Are Watching", "question_index": 30, "text": "So are you expecting to see any changes that would apply to the midterm elections in November?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That we've now arrived at a moment in time where the naked partisanship, or, seemingly naked partisanship of these maps is being evaluated by the federal courts and now by the High Court is perhaps a "}
{"id": "584243140", "date": "2018-02-08", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "With Closed-Circuit TV, Satellites And Phones, Millions Of Cameras Are Watching", "question_index": 31, "text": "Has writing about gerrymandering made you think about how imperfect American democracy is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I don't think there will be any changes at all that will affect the midterms. I think that - so it won't - now, the only change would be if, in fact, the Pennsylvania maps are redrawn and redrawn "}
{"id": "584243140", "date": "2018-02-08", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "With Closed-Circuit TV, Satellites And Phones, Millions Of Cameras Are Watching", "question_index": 32, "text": "Well, Robert Draper, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I mean, redistricting is one of those, you know, vanilla terms, you know, somewhat opaque that just sounds very technocratic and wouldn't seem to have any impact on our daily lives. But I think i"}
{"id": "584243140", "date": "2018-02-08", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "With Closed-Circuit TV, Satellites And Phones, Millions Of Cameras Are Watching", "question_index": 33, "text": "Robert Draper is a writer at large for The New York Times Magazine and a contributing writer at National Geographic. In the current issue of National Geographic, he has an article about state-of-the-art surveillance titled \"They Are Watching You - And Everything Else On The Planet.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's my pleasure, Terry."}
{"id": "584243140", "date": "2018-02-08", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "With Closed-Circuit TV, Satellites And Phones, Millions Of Cameras Are Watching", "question_index": 34, "text": "If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, like yesterday's interview with Jordan Klepper, the host of the Comedy Central satirical political show \"The Opposition,\" check out our podcast. You'll find lots of interviews. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Mooj Zadie, Thea Chaloner and Seth Kelley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's my pleasure, Terry."}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Here's a few of the things my guest Kate Bowler doesn't want to hear about living with her incurable cancer - everything happens for a reason. God is writing a better story. Heaven is your true home. God needs another angel. It's not that she's lacking in faith. She just wants to avoid trite life lessons. Bowler is an associate professor of the history of Christianity in North America at Duke Divinity School. Her new memoir, \"Everything Happens For A Reason: And Other Lies I've Loved,\" is about how her faith has affected the way she deals with cancer and how her cancer has affected her faith. She also reflects on the paradox that her first book was about, the history of the prosperity gospel, which preaches that God grants health and wealth to those with the right kind of faith. Bowler was diagnosed in 2015 with stage IV colon cancer that had already metastasized. She's married, has a young son and can't bear the thought of him growing up without her. What's kept her alive in addition to colon surgery and chemo is experimental immunotherapy treatments that helped shrink her tumors. Kate Bowler, welcome to FRESH AIR. I want to ask you to start with a reading from the preface to your book.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Thank you for reading that. So listen, after finishing your book, I need to know - how are you now? Where are you in your treatment?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure. (Reading) Married in my 20s, a baby in my 30s, I won a job at my alma mater straight out of graduate school. I felt breathless with the possibilities. Actually, it's getting harder to rememb"}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 2, "text": "So what is the state of the cancer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm moving from the crisis phase to the chronic illness management phase. So now I get scans repeatedly instead of having regular treatment, and it requires a different kind of mentality. Before"}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 3, "text": "So in the book, there's a period where you're getting - you're starting the immunotherapy treatment and you get scans...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I have incurable cancer, so the hope is just that it doesn't grow and that the treatment I'm on keeps it at bay. And the goal with new developments in immunotherapy is that it could be like that"}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 4, "text": "...I think, like every two months.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Yeah, and so after each one, you were basically told - what? - you've got another two months or three months...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah, that still happens every three months."}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 6, "text": "...For sure of life. But that was the only certainty you had. Are you in that same kind of period where you're living from short interval to short interval with no certainty beyond that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 7, "text": "OK. Well, since your book is about how your religious scholarship and religious practice is affecting how you cope with the illness and it's about how the illness is affecting your understanding of God, let's start with religion. And let's start with the religion that you were immersed in for research, the prosperity...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, before it was especially terrifying because with the experimental drug I was on, if the tumors grew, I knew I would get kicked out of the trial, and that would be pretty much it for me. So thank"}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 8, "text": "...Gospel, which was the subject of your doctoral dissertation and of your first book. So I want to start with that. And I'll need you to describe what the prosperity gospel is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 9, "text": "So in the prosperity gospel, there's a direct connection between your prayers and how you are rewarded by God. The rewards are our money and material possessions as well as good health. So what does it mean within that creed if you get sick like you've gotten sick?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. The prosperity gospel is a movement that grew out of Pentecostalism that said that God rewards the faithful with health and wealth within the course of their human life if they have the right ki"}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 10, "text": "So what did your friends within the prosperity church say to you about your being sick?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's the double-edged sword of a movement like the prosperity gospel. For people who experience tough times, it really can be tremendously empowering for a preacher to say, look, you might be "}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 11, "text": "And you write that you'd seen people in prosperity churches who were sick or who were dealing with tragedy...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, they were - I think, like any good friend, they really tried to lead with love. I mean, they felt genuinely awful for me. But in there somewhere was the hope that I really just needed to find "}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 12, "text": "...And that they couldn't really grieve.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 13, "text": "So when you were doing the research for your book and your dissertation, did you find any of the prosperity gospel appealing? Do you ever want to believe that you had it in your control to just, you know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I mean, that was - I think that was maybe the most depressing part of the research was there's all these beautiful, jubilant services and maybe the best part of the prosperity gospel is the worshi"}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 14, "text": "...Get spiritually right and then be materially and spiritually rewarded for it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 15, "text": "In the preface to your book, you write I believed God would make a way. I don't believe that anymore. But you still believe in God. You haven't lost your faith.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, if you'd asked me at the time, I would've said no. I mean, I am just the kind, compassionate observer. I'm sitting with the people in the pews, and I'm thinking it seems so lovely to me that peo"}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I'm a big super Jesus-y (ph) heart over here."}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Have you asked God to heal you? Do you believe that that's something you can ask for, and that's something - that it's something that God can decide to do? Like, let...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "being spiritual except that you get to know a little something about the presence of God."}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 18, "text": "Uh-huh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do. Yeah."}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 19, "text": "So you grew up surrounded by Mennonites in Manitoba, Canada. Your husband is Mennonite. You went to a Mennonite camp. Were you offered ways from that community to understand sickness?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "in which I was like, dear God, comma, please, please, save me. I will do anything. But I don't also, then, expect that just because I prayed it or because I am spiritually trying hard that it's going "}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 20, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "really gruesome 17th-century account of people's - early Mennonites' horrible deaths."}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "that I have..."}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 22, "text": "And if you take a kind of life-is-hard world view, then when someone in that community gets sick, they're not the outlier. They're not disproving...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In Manitoba where it's either mosquito season or just this terrible winter. And, like, they drained the swamps of the piece of land they were given together, assuming, like, oh, we should probably liv"}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 23, "text": "...The presence of God.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 24, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, that's right. And, I mean, they've always been committed to simplicity, pacifism, ruining jello salads with deli meat..."}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Do you consider yourself Mennonite now, or do you have another name for your own Christian practice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Just buried in there somewhere like a horrible surprise. They're really not expecting much in the healthiest way because they assume that most things have to be done together and that those who suf"}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 26, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I made a deal with Duke Divinity School where I work where I said, look, I'll be Methodist here because you are team Methodist, and that's what we're doing is we're training..."}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 27, "text": "So have your prayers changed, or has the place of prayer or the meaning of prayer in your life changed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Methodist pastors - God bless them - but that I'll be Mennonite in Canada where I'm from."}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 28, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think maybe it has because I think I don't have the luxury of being too sophisticated anymore. I mean, you just get infected with this urgency that comes with facing your death. And so I pray for ve"}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 29, "text": "You quote in your book something a friend with cancer said to you. They said, I have known Christ in so many good times, and now I will know him better in his sufferings. That obviously stuck with you. And it's similar to something that you say in the book, which is that you have to seek God in the darkness and brokenness now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I come to you - and, like, there's no dignity now. I just go right for it."}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 30, "text": "So can you elaborate on that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 31, "text": "Well, I tell you what. Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Kate Bowler. She's the author of the new memoir \"Everything Happens For A Reason: And Other Lies I've Loved.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "with other people. I initially wrote it because I was trying to get down to the deepest, hardest, truest things that I believed - like, get down to those lies that I had perpetuated all along, that I "}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 32, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Kate Bowler. She's the author of the new memoir \"Everything Happens For A Reason: And Other Lies I've Loved.\" And it's a memoir about having colon cancer that metastasized, being told she had a little time to live but then finding an experimental immunotherapy treatment that seems to be helping. But everything is still very indefinite in her life. And the book is a memoir about how her illness has affected her religious practice, and how religious practice has affected how she deals with illness. She teaches at Duke Divinity School, where she also got her doctorate. After you had your major surgery, in which the large cancerous tumor was removed from your colon, you were in the hospital, incapacitated and somehow felt the presence of God in a way that you hadn't experienced before. And you write that when you were sure you were going to die, you didn't feel angry. You felt loved. And you say, it felt as though I'd uncovered something like a secret faith and kept thinking, I don't want to go back. Is that something you could put more into words?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "with other people. I initially wrote it because I was trying to get down to the deepest, hardest, truest things that I believed - like, get down to those lies that I had perpetuated all along, that I "}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 33, "text": "You write that you were afraid that that feeling would leave? Did it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, man, because it was so weird - I thought this is not a rational thought. I should want to go back. And, of course, I do because I would love to trade the life I have for one in which I imagined I "}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 34, "text": "So because of that feeling of the closeness of God when you thought you were dying after the surgery in the hospital - when you were really like at the edge of a cliff.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It totally did. Yeah, it was there for like a few months. And I started to really get used to it because it felt like this nice floaty feeling where I wasn't quite scraping the bottom. And like at the"}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 35, "text": "When you pulled back a bit from that cliff, did the experience give you confidence that you'd experience that presence of God again when you do hopefully - when you do approach death, hopefully sometime way in the distant future?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 36, "text": "My guest is Kate Bowler. Her new memoir about her illness and her faith is called \"Everything Happens For A Reason: And Other Lies I've Loved.\" We'll talk more after a break. I'm Terry Gross. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can't believe you said that because that is exactly the only certainty I landed on. I mean, I gave up most of the spiritual cliches, I think - that every good thing was going to come back to me or t"}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 37, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross back with Kate Bowler. Her new memoir \"Everything Happens For A Reason: And Other Lies I've Loved\" is about how her religious faith has affected how she lives with incurable cancer and how her illness has affected her faith. She teaches at Duke Divinity School. In 2015, she was diagnosed with stage 4 colon cancer that had already metastasized. In addition to colon surgery, she's had heavy-duty chemo and experimental immunotherapy treatments. She's married and has a young son, who she can't bear to think of growing up without her. Jesus suffered a lot, and there are many, like, stories in Christianity about his suffering. Of course, there's the crucifixion - the ultimate suffering. So are there stories that you find a new meaning in - like, stories from the bible, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can't believe you said that because that is exactly the only certainty I landed on. I mean, I gave up most of the spiritual cliches, I think - that every good thing was going to come back to me or t"}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 38, "text": "It's a religious theme park, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah. I mean, Jesus' life didn't turn out super well, so that was helpful for me to not feel like - quite so much like a spiritual loser. But that was one of the funnier and maybe more poignant "}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 39, "text": "And they bought it from Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a - yeah. It's a real thing. And it was bought by Jan and Paul Crouch, who were the king and queen of 1980s televangelism."}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 40, "text": "Oh, oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They - Jim and Tammy Faye had their own theme park..."}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 41, "text": "So I take it Easter has taken on a new meaning for you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And - which was Heritage Park USA, which had an incredible water slide. And so, yeah, just like that, they had this - still have this Holy Land Experience in Florida. And you could watch Jesus' gri"}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 42, "text": "So you write in your book I am preparing for death and everyone else is on Instagram.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It is the great hope that in the end, that the kingdom of God will be here a little more. In the meantime, though, things are quite grim (laughter). That's sort of the world we have to live in."}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 43, "text": "Your son was 2 years old when you were diagnosed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Laughter) I try not to be - I was trying not to be the worst about that. But like, it was weird to be 35, and I have this little kid. And when you look at your kid, I think they just look like the fu"}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 44, "text": "Do you think that his presence in your life affected your willingness to take on some really harsh therapies?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, just turned 1. I just saw pictures the other day. And I have to admit that pictures still make me feel really sad. Like, I think I just - like, it's hard not to remember so clearly, like, he was"}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 45, "text": "You mean physically cold. You got - became very sensitive to the cold.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that's right. I think - he is the most hopeful thing I can imagine. And he is a perfect reason to try to be as brave as possible within the confines of my day. Like, every day is some possibil"}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 46, "text": "So at one point, you asked your sister-in-law to promise you that she would tell your husband to get remarried if you die and that you didn't want your death, if you died, to end his life as well as your own. So this is a hard subject to broach. So if you don't want to talk about that, that's fine.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, just physically cold - yeah. I was freezing. I'm freezing all the time. Thanks, chemotherapy. Yeah. It makes you feel really fragile. And then you have this permanent thing, which is your love. "}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 47, "text": "But thinking about the possibility of him - of you being gone and him remarrying and your son having a different mother, I just - I think that that's probably pretty unbearable to think about. I know you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. It's fine."}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 48, "text": "And to put aside your jealousy and envy, the kinds of things...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think - yeah. It's impossible. I mean, it really comes across as an impossible thought. Like, not that other people can love - that the people you love can love other things. You want that. You want"}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 49, "text": "...Yeah - that kind of actually go along with imagining your spouse with somebody else. I mean...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 50, "text": "No one wants to do that - yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. No, no - impossible."}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 51, "text": "It seems to me that you don't need to be worrying about how someone else in the future might feel if you're in a family photo.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, luckily, I have so thoroughly just ruined my family dynamics with how involved I am. I mean, who could live without me at this point? They've known me since I was 14, so I've just ruined everyth"}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 52, "text": "And now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Laughter) Yeah. I think you're right. Like, your brain is just so - it just - yeah - because I remembered it yesterday for the first time, like, my reluctance to keep living because I imagined - yeah"}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 53, "text": "And I think it's great that you have been able not only to write this book but to be well enough to be at a book launch party and, luckily, for me, to be on our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I got to wear a dress the other day that I had in a box because it was my teaching dress. And I got to wear it at my book launch event and get my hair done. And I thought, wow. Thank you. I am so grat"}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 54, "text": "So I think this is a good moment to take a break. So let's do that. And then we'll come back and talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Kate Bowler. Her new memoir is called \"Everything Happens For A Reason: And Other Lies I've Loved.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR. (SOUNDBITE OF THE WEE TRIO'S \"LOLA\")", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 55, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Kate Bowler. She's written a new memoir called \"Everything Happens For A Reason: And Other Lies I've Loved.\" And it's a memoir about having cancer and how her illness has changed her religious life and how religion has affected how she deals with her illness. She is an associate professor at the Duke Divinity School where she got her doctorate. And her doctoral dissertation was about the prosperity gospel, which she studied and also wrote a book about. She is not a part of that church, though. So your personal essay before the book was written was published in The New York Times Magazine on the front page of the Sunday Review. You got a huge response from readers. What was the range of reactions that you got from your readers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 56, "text": "So why did it happen to you? What were some of the explanations?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Laughter) I'll be honest. Like, I did not think that through. I wrote it so privately. And like, I wrote it mostly in a hospital waiting room. And then I forgot that people will read it and then emai"}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 57, "text": "Was it part of God's plan? Did you get that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, lots of reasons - well, that there was a spiritual process I had not adequately tried. Maybe I didn't pray with enough faith or - or conversely that these are the wages of sin and surely God is ju"}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 58, "text": "Oh. I think you mentioned in the book that one of the letter writers said to you that the cancer was part of God's plan so that you would write this article that would help other people. (LAUGHTER)", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I should accept that for sure. But, like, I don't know. Maybe it's just living. But it's very hard to be fatalistic like that about everything that's precious about you. So my "}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 59, "text": "So I loved reading your book. I mean, parts of it just made me really sad. Other parts are, you know, incredibly moving. It also made me laugh a lot.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Well, that's the problem right with the, like, circular logic of this is immediately if I wrote the article and then it helped people then, like, this is the plan. And then if I write the article"}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 60, "text": "But there's a part of it that made me really angry. And that's the part where you were - this is before you had your diagnosis. You were in a lot of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Laughter)."}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 61, "text": "...Abdominal pain. You'd...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 62, "text": "...Have to, like, double over in pain. You kept going to the doctor, and the doctor kept saying, well, maybe it's a gallbladder - your gallbladder. Maybe we'll have to remove it. And you kept saying, I want another test. I want another test. Do something.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 63, "text": "And so...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 64, "text": "...Finally, because you demanded it, you got a CT scan and found out that you had this large, cancerous tumor in your colon which had already metastasized.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 65, "text": "So that's the part that made me angry. I imagine it...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 66, "text": "...Made you angry because you should've had a diagnosis sooner. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 67, "text": "...Did you ever talk to your doctor about that? Did you continue to see that doctor? Did that doctor ever, at the very least, apologize to you? Did you ever consider suing? Like, I would just be so angry.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 68, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Kate Bowler. And her new memoir about her cancer and her religious life is called \"Everything Happens For A Reason: And Other Lies I've Loved.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR. (SOUNDBITE OF GUY MINTUS TRIO'S \"OUR JOURNEY TOGETHER\")", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, it's - the anger is there. And, I mean - and that's partly why I ended up writing so much about, like, the way people frame other people's illnesses and their unwillingness to say that's"}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 69, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Kate Bowler. And her new memoir \"Everything Happens For A Reason: And Other Lies I've Loved\" is about getting diagnosed with incurable colon cancer that had already metastasized and then getting on, like, really harsh chemo treatments and experimental immunotherapy. And the - what the memoir's really about is about how her religious practice has informed how she deals with her illness and how her illness has changed her spiritual life. You've had a lot of, like, bad reactions to the harsh chemo that you've had to take. And then there's the experimental immunotherapy drugs. So you've had lockjaw. You've lost sensation in your hands and feet, mouth ulcers, hypersensitivity to cold. You're right. It's increasingly hard to remember that these side effects are not the same as dying. Pain like that can be so distracting at the very least. I mean...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, it's - the anger is there. And, I mean - and that's partly why I ended up writing so much about, like, the way people frame other people's illnesses and their unwillingness to say that's"}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 70, "text": "...How do you get your mind off of just feeling all the pain...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 71, "text": "...When you're in one of those periods when you're feeling that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 72, "text": "Are you in pain now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, because the pain - it really does feel like it's like a noise, and it's too loud. And other people are trying to talk to you, and you can't quite hear them. It's - at least that's how my pain fe"}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 73, "text": "So one of your friends is a pediatric oncologist. And he told you once you were on the experimental therapy that you needed to think beyond the concepts of being cured or of dying and to think instead about how to get from one good outcome to another.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, usually. Yeah, I think so. I don't think about it but yeah. If I actually was quiet for a second and thought about it, I think the answer would be yes."}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 74, "text": "Was that helpful?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 75, "text": "So your friend who's the pediatric oncologist also told you that if you agreed to be blasted with these chemo drugs and the immunotherapy and endure whatever the side effects were, that he would make the end as comfortable as possible. Was that helpful - and if so, how?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, man, because it's really hard not to imagine that you're either, yeah, healthy or dying. And if they said incurable cancer, I just - I didn't have a - I mean, who has a framework for that? So it h"}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 76, "text": "Do you have any concept of what happens after life? Like, do you believe in heaven and hell? Do you have a concept of what that would be?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess I just needed to have that conversation with someone I really love - to say at the very end - when you walk to the end of the line, like - and he's seen it. I've never really seen it. I don't "}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 77, "text": "You know, there's one sentence in the book where you write life is beautiful. Life is hard. And I think that's a great summary statement - simple and true.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I believe heaven. But I have mixed feelings about it if I can say that honestly. I mean, people were so quick to say that like this is the great reward, right? Like, heaven is going to be amazin"}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 78, "text": "Kate Bowler, it's really just been wonderful to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's just this little loop that my brain goes on. I mean, like you can see - because it's the two things at the same moment. Like when you're in the hospital, and you've got a face mask on, and you ca"}
{"id": "585066841", "date": "2018-02-12", "guest": "Kate Bowler", "title": "A Stage-4 Cancer Patient Shares The Pain And Clarity Of Living 'Scan-To-Scan'", "question_index": 79, "text": "Kate Bowler's new memoir is called \"Everything Happens For A Reason: And Other Lies I've Loved.\" She teaches at Duke Divinity School. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, how far did Steve Bannon get in his plan to deconstruct the deep state and take down the Republican establishment? And now that he lost his position in the White House and Breitbart News, what power does he have? My guest will be Joshua Green who's bestselling book about Bannon and Trump \"Devil's Bargain\" just came out in paperback. He's a national correspondent for Bloomberg Businessweek. I hope you'll join us. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our associate producer for digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross. (SOUNDBITE OF MARIA SCHNEIDER'S \"WALKING BY FLASHLIGHT\")", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my word, what a gift. Thank you."}
{"id": "585387362", "date": "2018-02-13", "guest": "Asma Jahangir", "title": "Remembering Pakistani Activist And Human Rights Lawyer Asma Jahangir", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're going to remember the human rights lawyer and activist who's been called Pakistan's bravest citizen. That was the headline of Asma Jahangir's obituary, written by Pakistani journalist Ahmed Rashid. Jahangir died Sunday of a heart attack at the age of 66. In a New York Times obituary, Jahangir was described as a fearless critic of the military's interference in politics and a staunch defender of the rule of law. She campaigned for women's rights and democracy and was arrested many times in the process. In 1981, she and her sister co-founded the first all women's law firm in Pakistan. In 1987, they founded the Human Rights Commission of Pakistan. During her lifetime, Jahangir received multiple human rights awards, honorary degrees and other awards from universities, think tanks and governments. I spoke with her in March 2001, shortly after she received the Millennium Peace Prize for Women, co-sponsored by the U.N. Development Fund for Women and the London-based human rights group International Alert.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "585387362", "date": "2018-02-13", "guest": "Asma Jahangir", "title": "Remembering Pakistani Activist And Human Rights Lawyer Asma Jahangir", "question_index": 1, "text": "You took on a case defending a woman named Saeima Waheed (ph). She had married against the wishes of her family, and her father wanted the courts to declare that marriage illegal because she chose her own husband against her family's wishes. Is that illegal, choosing your own husband?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "585387362", "date": "2018-02-13", "guest": "Asma Jahangir", "title": "Remembering Pakistani Activist And Human Rights Lawyer Asma Jahangir", "question_index": 2, "text": "So what was the outcome of the trial? Did you win the case?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, under the law, it's not illegal. But there had been isolated cases where bigoted judges had said that it was illegal. And all those cases were brought in this case, and that's why they wanted a "}
{"id": "585387362", "date": "2018-02-13", "guest": "Asma Jahangir", "title": "Remembering Pakistani Activist And Human Rights Lawyer Asma Jahangir", "question_index": 3, "text": "She had to flee the country after the case?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. We won the case. That's not the point. The girl couldn't stay in Pakistan. That is a sad point of it."}
{"id": "585387362", "date": "2018-02-13", "guest": "Asma Jahangir", "title": "Remembering Pakistani Activist And Human Rights Lawyer Asma Jahangir", "question_index": 4, "text": "What kind of precedent were you hoping to set with this trial?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. She is now living in Norway with her husband and has a very beautiful child."}
{"id": "585387362", "date": "2018-02-13", "guest": "Asma Jahangir", "title": "Remembering Pakistani Activist And Human Rights Lawyer Asma Jahangir", "question_index": 5, "text": "And in terms of women's issues, what are the laws or customs that you'd most like to change in Pakistan?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one, that we would not be browbeaten. Second, we will not accept jerks on the bench to intimidate women lawyers."}
{"id": "585387362", "date": "2018-02-13", "guest": "Asma Jahangir", "title": "Remembering Pakistani Activist And Human Rights Lawyer Asma Jahangir", "question_index": 6, "text": "You mentioned adultery. You've defended over 300 women accused of adultery. What is the penalty?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, many laws. There are many discriminatory laws. For example, the law of rape, the law of adultery, the law of evidence, family laws because that affects every woman. And mind you, women's destiny"}
{"id": "585387362", "date": "2018-02-13", "guest": "Asma Jahangir", "title": "Remembering Pakistani Activist And Human Rights Lawyer Asma Jahangir", "question_index": 7, "text": "Of the women who you've defended who were accused of adultery, do you think that most of them actually committed adultery or were these sometimes trumped-up charges to punish the woman?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the highest penalty is stoning to death, which has never been executed. But then it is anything up to 10 years of punishment and 30 whippings in public. Fortunately when Benazir Bhutto was prime"}
{"id": "585387362", "date": "2018-02-13", "guest": "Asma Jahangir", "title": "Remembering Pakistani Activist And Human Rights Lawyer Asma Jahangir", "question_index": 8, "text": "Now, there have been groups that have put a price on your head. So what kind of protection do you have?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, frankly, let me tell you, as a lawyer, I don't even bother and I don't do even ask them whether they committed adultery or not. It's their business. But there are some cases which are horrific, "}
{"id": "585387362", "date": "2018-02-13", "guest": "Asma Jahangir", "title": "Remembering Pakistani Activist And Human Rights Lawyer Asma Jahangir", "question_index": 9, "text": "Give me an example.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have protection. I have police protection. I have personal bodyguards. I have three sets of them. But believe me, this is really psychological for the family. If they want to get me, they can get me"}
{"id": "585387362", "date": "2018-02-13", "guest": "Asma Jahangir", "title": "Remembering Pakistani Activist And Human Rights Lawyer Asma Jahangir", "question_index": 10, "text": "Are you prepared to die for the causes that you support?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "An example that a man came to my office with a briefcase, sat right across me saying he wants to give me some donation. And I said, I don't take donation like this. And he was about to open his briefc"}
{"id": "585387362", "date": "2018-02-13", "guest": "Asma Jahangir", "title": "Remembering Pakistani Activist And Human Rights Lawyer Asma Jahangir", "question_index": 11, "text": "Pakistani human rights lawyer and activist Asma Jahangir recorded in March 2001. She died of a heart attack Sunday. She was 66. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, long-haul trucker Finn Murphy tells us about logging over 1 million miles hauling people's belongings across the country when they move to new homes. From up in his truck cab, he can see what's happening in the cars below.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Look, nobody thinks about it in this way. I am certainly not a martyr kind of a person. I love my life. But if one has to, then there is nothing more nobler a cause that I can think of. And apart from"}
{"id": "585387362", "date": "2018-02-13", "guest": "Asma Jahangir", "title": "Remembering Pakistani Activist And Human Rights Lawyer Asma Jahangir", "question_index": 12, "text": "Murphy has a new memoir. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The behavior that people perform inside their vehicles makes it look like they don't think anybody can see. Well, I can see everything."}
{"id": "585387362", "date": "2018-02-13", "guest": "Asma Jahangir", "title": "Remembering Pakistani Activist And Human Rights Lawyer Asma Jahangir", "question_index": 13, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Mooj Zadie, Thea Chaloner and Seth Kelley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The behavior that people perform inside their vehicles makes it look like they don't think anybody can see. Well, I can see everything."}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. I drive a compact car, so I was interested in hearing about life driving a 70,000-pound truck whose trailer is 53 feet long. My guest, Finn Murphy, has written a new memoir called \"The Long Haul\" about his experiences logging over a million miles. His cargo includes the furniture, dishes, clothing, pianos, heirlooms and artwork of corporate executives and their families moving across the country to new homes for their new jobs. Murphy typically packs and unpacks the possessions as well. His memoir is filled with insights about life on the road and the subculture of truckers as well as about the attachments people have to their possessions when they're transitioning to a new home and having to decide what to keep and what to ask Murphy to throw in the dumpster. He's been driving a truck off and on since the late 1970s. He dropped out of college to become a truck driver. Finn Murphy, welcome to FRESH AIR. I want to start with a reading from the book, a short paragraph from the introduction.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 1, "text": "Well, thanks for reading that. And apparently you don't wear jeans or belts 'cause they can scratch the furniture.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) To the casual observer, all trucks probably look similar. And I suppose people figure all truckers do pretty much the same job. Neither is true. There's a strict hierarchy of drivers dependi"}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 2, "text": "So why are long-haul furniture movers at the bottom of the trucker hierarchy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that's correct."}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 3, "text": "So you're not, like, part of the brotherhood so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because we have to load and unload our trucks, first. Second, we have to deal with customers. So as a mover who works for a van line, I'm managing this move and this transition for this family. And th"}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 4, "text": "So does that translate to being treated by other truckers in a certain way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not so much because of the - as I just read in the introduction there, we don't drive - you know, I don't drive 200,000 miles a year. I'm not doing 3,000 miles a week, 52 weeks a year from New Jersey "}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 5, "text": "So describe your truck.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It does. Once they see the van line shirt - and it doesn't happen just with truckers, either. It happens with waitresses. It happens in the service bays, at the truck washes. The bedbuggers are - yeah"}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 6, "text": "Whoa.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My truck - I have a brand-new Freightliner Cascadia with a 435 Detroit Diesel engine. It's a Class 8 truck, which means the big tractor-trailers. I picked it up in Indianapolis in November. It had 42 "}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 7, "text": "Right out of the showroom", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep."}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep."}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 9, "text": "And you own...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "yep, I drove it right out of the lot. It's got a walk-in sleeper with a double bed in the back. It's got a bunk bed up above, a microwave oven, refrigerator, navigation system, a custom air ride seat "}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 10, "text": "You own it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It cost me..."}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 11, "text": "Yeah, bigger than some mortgages", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "yeah, I was just getting to that. I don't own it. I lease it, and it's $4,700 a month - is my truck payment. So it's like a big mortgage."}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 12, "text": ". So how does this truck compare to the truck you started driving back in - around 1980?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "yeah, I was just getting to that. I don't own it. I lease it, and it's $4,700 a month - is my truck payment. So it's like a big mortgage."}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 13, "text": "Wow. If there's no hood in front, there's nothing to protect you from head-on crash.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, so that was an International TranStar back then, what we call a cab-over. So there's no hood to it. So you're - the windshield is sitting right over the road, and you're sitting actually right ove"}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 14, "text": "Yeah, good idea. So that leads to, what are some of the roads or road conditions that you fear most?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 15, "text": "Oh, gee.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "people that don't drive trucks. If you drive an ambulance, it's called a bone box. A school bus is called a cheese wagon. Motorcycle riders are called organ donors."}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 16, "text": "So have you ever been - I hope not - in an accident?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And we call motorcycle - they're called murdercycles. Some - I mean, I can't even see motorcycles most of the time."}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 17, "text": "Wow,", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nothing serious. I've been in a few fender benders here and there, some - trying to make a tight urban turn. I got stuck in Boston once where the truck - in Cambridge, I was trying to make one of thos"}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 18, "text": "OK. So when people hire you to move all their possessions - and mostly you have very high-end clients - they're leaving all their possessions in the world to a stranger. And no matter how, you know, nice and diplomatic and caring you are when you meet them, you're still a stranger. What do people say to you to try to convince you to be nice to their stuff and take", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nothing serious. I've been in a few fender benders here and there, some - trying to make a tight urban turn. I got stuck in Boston once where the truck - in Cambridge, I was trying to make one of thos"}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 19, "text": "good care of it because I'm sure there's really, like, nice ways of doing that and really, like, threatening ways of doing that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nothing serious. I've been in a few fender benders here and there, some - trying to make a tight urban turn. I got stuck in Boston once where the truck - in Cambridge, I was trying to make one of thos"}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 20, "text": "So you're entrusted with the possessions, and sometimes something goes wrong. And I think, like, the biggest example of that in your book is when you were moving a family, and the woman's baby grand piano was, like, the most prized possession of - was, like, a family heirloom in addition to being a piano. And it didn't really fit easily into the new home. And it was kind of a catastrophe. Would you describe what happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". There's a lot of tattoos. It's all immigrant laborers - wonderful, wonderful people. And I have crews all over the country I've been working with for decades. But it can be a kind of unnerving initi"}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 21, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And so we had to bring this up an outside staircase. It was a baby grand piano, weighed about 700 pounds. And we were bringing it up the incline just with brute force, which is one of the really att"}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 22, "text": "That's so horrible.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...When it goes bong (ph)? So that's the noise that the piano made. That was its death flurry. And we were all just shocked and standing around. And the customer was there with a toddler in her hand. "}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 23, "text": "So you write that that truckers like you aren't sentimental about objects. I'll kind of leave a baby grand out of that because that's an instrument. That's different than", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And myself and my crew - we just looked over at the shipper. We call the customer the shipper. And one of my men, this big giant of a man, went over and put his arm around the customer, the shipper. A"}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 24, "text": "an object in my opinion. But so you write you're not sentimental about objects. You don't own much. I could easily see it being the other way around. Watching how meaningful possessions are to people, I could see you becoming more attached, not less attached to things in your life. So why are you less attached?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And myself and my crew - we just looked over at the shipper. We call the customer the shipper. And one of my men, this big giant of a man, went over and put his arm around the customer, the shipper. A"}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 25, "text": "Do you ever pick out things that you want for yourself when you're supposed to be putting everything in the dumpster?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because we see objects or stuff in a continuum of the way people live. For example, in your 20s and 30s, most Americans are accumulating things. And then in the 40s and 50s, that sort of levels off. A"}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 26, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But we get - movers get offered things all the time. In fact, so here are the - here's the four things that movers get offered most commonly - pianos, hot tubs..."}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 27, "text": "Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...backyard trampolines and pool tables."}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 28, "text": "Why are those the things?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Every mover I know could have six or seven of these things if they wanted to have them."}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 29, "text": "They don't say, I'll leave it for the next family; they'll love having it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because they're big and bulky. And depending on where they're moving to, they may or may not have room. They put it on Craigslist. They priced it wrong. And on moving day, it's still there. And then a"}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 30, "text": "Right, OK. Let me introduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Finn Murphy, and he's a long-haul trucker. He moves people long distances and moves all their possessions to their new home. Now he's written a memoir about it called \"The Long Haul: A Trucker's Tales Of Life On The Road.\" We're going to take a short break, then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We do that, too because usually we're not taking the hot tub or the backyard trampoline."}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 31, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Finn Murphy. He's written a new memoir about being a long-haul trucker. Basically it's like a huge moving van. He deals with high-end customers who are moving to distant locations. His memoir is called \"The Long Haul: A Trucker's Tales Of Life On The Road.\" What's one of the strangest things that you've had to move?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We do that, too because usually we're not taking the hot tub or the backyard trampoline."}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 32, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Probably a collection of Chinese gravestones. This gentleman that I was moving - he had eight of them, and he had purchased them somewhere. Each one was worth $80,000. He had a gallery set up in the c"}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 33, "text": "He's entrusting you with this, you know, fortune's worth of stuff, and he won't even let you use his bathroom or one of his bathrooms.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he kept going..."}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 34, "text": "But if he's disrespecting you that way, how are you supposed to respect his possessions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, yeah. That's how it works sometimes."}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 35, "text": "Uh-oh. Here we go.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, fortunately, movers and restaurant workers have some sort of retaliatory measures at hand."}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 36, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So we didn't say anything to him. And he kept going down into town and bringing back food for himself and his wife and people and - anyway, we were starving, and we were using the port-a-potty. And we"}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 37, "text": "How does a house even support so many 600-pound gravestones?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he couldn't tell the difference. So we were really looking forward to the day when he was going to have a cocktail party and show off his gravestones. And somebody who was - understood Chinese wou"}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 38, "text": "Oh, my gosh, OK", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he had an Olympic pool in the basement, so I imagine it was made..."}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 39, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he had an Olympic pool in the basement, so I imagine it was made..."}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 40, "text": "Yeah, OK. So what's the view like when you're riding high up in the cab of a truck and all the other cars, especially the compact cars like me, are so far below you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, this - I get to see some pretty amazing places."}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 41, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So what people don't seem to understand is that I can see everything. And people tend to think that their automobile is anonymous. And I find that really amusing. So you've got this vehicle with windo"}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 42, "text": "I thought you were going to say people are picking their noses.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Inside their vehicles makes it look like they don't think anybody can see. Well, I can see everything. So I know what everybody's doing in their cars. And, you know, Americans - we're pretty good d"}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 43, "text": "I honestly thought that. And I thought something else you were going to say that has to do with body fluids. So, you know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Inside their vehicles makes it look like they don't think anybody can see. Well, I can see everything. So I know what everybody's doing in their cars. And, you know, Americans - we're pretty good d"}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 44, "text": "I know. So you've seen that, too. You're just not mentioning it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is a family show, Terry."}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 45, "text": "All right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I haven't seen anybody actually eliminating fluids in a car, no."}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 46, "text": "Yes, OK. My guest is Finn Murphy, author of the new memoir \"The Long Haul: A Trucker's Tale Of Life On The Road.\" We'll talk more, and Ken Tucker will review the new \"Black Panther\" soundtrack featuring Kendrick Lamar after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I haven't seen that. I have seen some romantic moments."}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 47, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross back with Finn Murphy, author of the new memoir \"The Long Haul: A Trucker's Tale Of Life On The Road.\" His specialty now is hauling the possessions of corporate executives and their families moving to new homes for their new jobs. He's been driving a truck since the late 1970s. He grew up in suburban Connecticut and dropped out of college, much to his parents' dismay, to become a truck driver. So you write that you've worked with people who are suspicious of your diction and demeanor. And white-collar people wonder what a guy like you who looks and sounds like them is doing driving a truck and moving furniture for a living. So people are suspicious of you or surprised on both ends. The truck drivers are suspicious of your diction and demeanor. And the people who you're moving wonder, like, what an educated guy like you is doing moving furniture for a living. So how does it feel to have both - what's my question?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I haven't seen that. I have seen some romantic moments."}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 48, "text": "What's my question, Finn?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'll toss in if you want."}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 49, "text": "You tell me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think your question is..."}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 50, "text": "So you were - grew up in a suburb of Connecticut. You write, I was raised by conscientious parents, educated by the Catholic Church and fine-tuned by the sensibilities of a prestigious New England liberal arts college. None of it stuck. So you dropped out of Colby College after three years to be a long-distance trucker. What was the attraction of the work?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Is how - I love being an enigma like that. It's very satisfying to me. I'm sort of a typical, middle child, black sheep of the family kind of guy. So if I'm confusing people, I like that a lot. And"}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 51, "text": "You don't mention this in the book, but your father was John Cullen Murphy, who drew the popular newspaper comic strip \"Prince Valiant.\" And you seemed to want to get as far away from his life as possible. But it sounds like being the son of a comic strip artist would be so great. And in fact I interviewed your brother recently who wrote a memoir about being the son", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "one of those people, which I think they're probably - they probably rethought that since then. So I - that was my summer job - worked for a local moving company. And then at the - in my junior year su"}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 52, "text": "of a comic book strip artist. And it seemed to be great for him. So what were you rebelling against within your family?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "one of those people, which I think they're probably - they probably rethought that since then. So I - that was my summer job - worked for a local moving company. And then at the - in my junior year su"}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 53, "text": "So how did it go over with your parents when you told them you were dropping out of college at the end of your junior year to become a long-distance trucker?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it was great having my father as a commercial illustrator. In fact, he had a studio behind our house, so my father was always home. When we came back from school or whatever, he was right there. My"}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 54, "text": "So you write, many young male neurotics find out early that hard labor is salve for an overactive mind. Running up and down staircases for hours on end, carrying dressers and refrigerators and pianos was to me a relief from stress. Hard work temporarily shut down the constant movie running in my brain that looped around in an endless cacophony of other people's expectations, obligations, guilt, anger and rebellion. So, like, you had to get out of your head through physical work?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So yeah, back to my father for a moment - probably the one regret of his life was that he was not able to go to college. His father died when he was 19. My father had to support his family. And all he"}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 55, "text": "Yeah. It's pretty good. Did you work on that a long time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I did. That's a really good sentence by the way, isn't it?"}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 56, "text": "OK, so I can get how physical work can take you out of your head even though I sit at a chair all day...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he was talking about himself. He wasn't talking about me. But yes, one of the great things about manual labor and especially for - if anyone who's done continual manual labor over a long period of"}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 57, "text": "...On the computer. But I can understand that. But what I don't get is how being alone on the road would be good for you if you live in your head and you want to mute some of the tape loops that are constantly playing in your head 'cause you're alone on the road. Yeah, you can put on the radio. Yeah, you can listen to a book on tape. But being alone in a truck for long, long periods of time seems to me like a really good opportunity for personal demons to have their way with you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he was talking about himself. He wasn't talking about me. But yes, one of the great things about manual labor and especially for - if anyone who's done continual manual labor over a long period of"}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 58, "text": "Well let's, take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Finn Murphy. He's a longtime long-haul trucker, and now he's written a new memoir called \"The Long Haul: A Trucker's Tales Of Life On The Road.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that's very true. And what you just enumerated there are various forms of distraction that I use or maybe you use or other people use in order not to face those kinds of demons. That's what a lot"}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 59, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Finn Murphy, who's written a new memoir about his life as a long-haul trucker. It's called \"The Long Haul.\" And basically he has a really, really large 18-wheeler moving van and moves families who need to relocate often across the country. You stopped driving for about 10 years. You don't say in the book what you did during those 10 years. Can you give us a sense of what your life was like in the 10 years that you stopped driving?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that's very true. And what you just enumerated there are various forms of distraction that I use or maybe you use or other people use in order not to face those kinds of demons. That's what a lot"}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 60, "text": "And then you went back into trucking again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. That was in an original draft of the book. Actually, that's going to be my next book, Terry - about what I did. But I will tell you what I did. So I was working for North American Van Lines, and "}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 61, "text": "So what happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 62, "text": "Well, changing the subject for a second, I have to say a paragraph I particularly enjoyed in your memoir has to do with how you listen to a lot of public radio when you're driving in your truck", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I was on - living on Nantucket Island as a high-profile businessman and citizen and community activist. I was actually chairman of the county commissioners on Nantucket. I was a police commissioner"}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 63, "text": "and that you know a lot of other truckers who listen to public radio, too - and so my personal thanks for that and for a very nice mention of me and our show. But I love that one Klan member from Georgia calls NPR U.S. Jews and girls report.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I was on - living on Nantucket Island as a high-profile businessman and citizen and community activist. I was actually chairman of the county commissioners on Nantucket. I was a police commissioner"}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 64, "text": "That's pretty funny. And as you said, yeah, he might say that, but he listens.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I was on - living on Nantucket Island as a high-profile businessman and citizen and community activist. I was actually chairman of the county commissioners on Nantucket. I was a police commissioner"}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 65, "text": "We don't know for sure, though, do we?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He probably doesn't have the mug, though."}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 66, "text": "That would great if he did. So just a couple of questions before we wrap up - you can't just pull into any parking lot when you're driving an 18-wheeler. So it's kind of personal.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't."}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 67, "text": "It's kind of private, but what do you do for pit stops, like, when you need the bathroom? Do you have one of those jars, one of those bottles for truckers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't."}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 68, "text": "Is that OK for me to ask you that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't."}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 69, "text": "Oh, no", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's fine. So here's - so the trucker staple here is an empty Gatorade bottle. And if you go into a truck stop parking lot on a summer afternoon..."}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 70, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's fine. So here's - so the trucker staple here is an empty Gatorade bottle. And if you go into a truck stop parking lot on a summer afternoon..."}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 71, "text": "What do you do when you're starting to fall asleep at the wheel?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You'll see legions of flattened Gatorade bottles all over the parking lot, and that will provide an interesting olfactory experience. So yeah, there's that. I try to get out and be a little more ci"}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 72, "text": "All right. Good luck to you with your writing and your driving, and thank you so much for talking with us. It's really been fun.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's really easy for me. So for you four-wheeler drivers out there, if you start getting that fluttering-of-the-eyelid thing, then you're - it's really time - it's actually past time to pull over. So "}
{"id": "585719252", "date": "2018-02-14", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 73, "text": "Finn Murphy's new memoir is called \"The Long Haul: A Trucker's Tale Of Life On The Road.\" After a break, Ken Tucker will review the new \"Black Panther\" soundtrack featuring Kendrick Lamar. Ken calls Lamar's performance on the album almost ridiculously entertaining. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. I'm thrilled to be here."}
{"id": "585937834", "date": "2018-02-15", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump Uses MS-13 To 'Sell Draconian Overhauls Of Border Issues,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. You've probably heard President Trump say terrifying things about the predominantly Salvadoran gang MS-13 and how it's terrorizing people in some communities in the U.S. Here's the president six months after taking office, speaking at Suffolk County Community College on Long Island.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "585937834", "date": "2018-02-15", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump Uses MS-13 To 'Sell Draconian Overhauls Of Border Issues,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 1, "text": "In Trump's State of the Union address, he said that many MS-13 gang members took advantage of glaring loopholes in our laws to enter the country as unaccompanied alien minors. That led into his description of his plan to overhaul the immigration system. My guest Jonathan Blitzer writes that the president has become obsessed with MS-13 But he might actually be strengthening the gang by talking about how menacing it is. And the anti-immigration policies Trump's administration is putting into effect are hurting many of the same people who were targeted by MS-13. Blitzer is a staff writer for The New Yorker who covers immigration. We're going to talk about the history of MS-13, who the gang members are, who the victims are and where this gang fits in the current story of American immigration. We're also going to talk about the uncertain future of DACA and this week's Senate debate about overhauling the immigration system. Jonathan Blitzer, welcome to FRESH AIR. Do you know how MS-13 became such an obsession of Donald Trump's?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Since January 16 - think of this - MS-13 gang members have brutally murdered 17 beautiful young lives in this area - on Long Island alone. Think of it. They butchered those little girls. They kidnap. "}
{"id": "585937834", "date": "2018-02-15", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump Uses MS-13 To 'Sell Draconian Overhauls Of Border Issues,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 2, "text": "So how has he used MS-13 to frame the debate on immigration?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's an interesting question. I followed Donald Trump on Long Island during the Republican primaries in the spring of 2016. And you'd think that MS-13 would have been an issue for him then if he was s"}
{"id": "585937834", "date": "2018-02-15", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump Uses MS-13 To 'Sell Draconian Overhauls Of Border Issues,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 3, "text": "OK. So MS-13 is a great talking point for Donald Trump to serve his mission of cracking down on immigration. What is MS-13? It's described as a gang. But it's not like it's a street gang like the Crips or the Bloods. It's much larger than that. Like, what - who are they? What are they?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, MS-13, for him, solves all kinds of rhetorical problems. So first of all, he wants to portray immigrants nationwide as being criminals. And that's obviously empirically untrue. But also statis"}
{"id": "585937834", "date": "2018-02-15", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump Uses MS-13 To 'Sell Draconian Overhauls Of Border Issues,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 4, "text": "And how...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, it is more like the Bloods or the Crips than it is like, you know, Mexican cartels or Colombian cartels that have this transnational reach. The gang began in Los Angeles in the 1980s. And wh"}
{"id": "585937834", "date": "2018-02-15", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump Uses MS-13 To 'Sell Draconian Overhauls Of Border Issues,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 5, "text": "...Did the gang change once these MS-13 members were deported to El Salvador?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "585937834", "date": "2018-02-15", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump Uses MS-13 To 'Sell Draconian Overhauls Of Border Issues,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 6, "text": "So how did the nature of MS-13 change as it became international?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, for one thing, it took a local gang problem that was festering on the streets of Los Angeles, and it turned it into an international crisis. El Salvador, at the time, had been decimated by more "}
{"id": "585937834", "date": "2018-02-15", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump Uses MS-13 To 'Sell Draconian Overhauls Of Border Issues,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 7, "text": "Do you know why MS-13's violence is often very gruesome, such as chopping up a body with a machete?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know that the character of the gang changed much. And this is a really interesting question about the gang's formation - and its current strength. MS-13 is often portrayed as a kind of transna"}
{"id": "585937834", "date": "2018-02-15", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump Uses MS-13 To 'Sell Draconian Overhauls Of Border Issues,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 8, "text": "Let's take a break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jonathan Blitzer, and he writes about immigration for The New Yorker. He's a staff writer there. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I think dating back to its origins, I think it was a matter of proving their toughness, proving that they could hang with some very violent gangs that at the time were brutalizing Salvadoran r"}
{"id": "585937834", "date": "2018-02-15", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump Uses MS-13 To 'Sell Draconian Overhauls Of Border Issues,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Jonathan Blitzer, who writes about immigration for The New Yorker. He's a staff writer there. And we've been talking about the gang MS-13, which is one of Trump's big anti-immigration talking points. So you described how MS-13 got started in California, then when a lot of the members were deported back to El Salvador, it became more international. So why does Long Island have such a large - relatively large population of people in MS-13?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I think dating back to its origins, I think it was a matter of proving their toughness, proving that they could hang with some very violent gangs that at the time were brutalizing Salvadoran r"}
{"id": "585937834", "date": "2018-02-15", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump Uses MS-13 To 'Sell Draconian Overhauls Of Border Issues,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 10, "text": "So these are kids who feel they have to protect themselves from Immigration and Customs Enforcement and that they have to protect themselves from MS-13, so they're very vulnerable.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, typically, the gang thrives in areas where there are large enclaves of Central Americans. And there are a lot of Salvadorans on Long Island. You know, it's a funny thing to talk about because in"}
{"id": "585937834", "date": "2018-02-15", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump Uses MS-13 To 'Sell Draconian Overhauls Of Border Issues,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 11, "text": "So MS-13 is a gang that really is a menace. They really are dangerous. They really are putting other people at risk, most especially Salvadorans who are immigrants here legally or illegally. So what do you think are President Trump's biggest misrepresentations or exaggerations when he's using MS-13 as a talking point for his anti-immigration policies?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You think about what these kids face every day. They go to schools where there's some gang members in their classes. They live on streets and in sort of small hamlets where gang members are their neig"}
{"id": "585937834", "date": "2018-02-15", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump Uses MS-13 To 'Sell Draconian Overhauls Of Border Issues,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 12, "text": "What else?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think there's a lot of slippage in his language between talking about gang members and talking about immigrants. And so I would say that's the first big misrepresentation, that the president is usin"}
{"id": "585937834", "date": "2018-02-15", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump Uses MS-13 To 'Sell Draconian Overhauls Of Border Issues,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 13, "text": "My guest is Jonathan Blitzer, who writes about immigration for The New Yorker. We'll talk more after a break. And David Edelstein will review the new film \"Black Panther.\" I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that his description of how the gang operates misrepresents the actual structure of the gang and misrepresents the specific ways in which the gang is dangerous. What makes MS-13 so hard to dea"}
{"id": "585937834", "date": "2018-02-15", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump Uses MS-13 To 'Sell Draconian Overhauls Of Border Issues,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross, back with Jonathan Blitzer, who covers immigration for The New Yorker, where he's a staff writer. He's written extensively about the predominantly-Salvadoran gang MS-13 which carries out gruesome acts of violence and tries to recruit teenagers who are undocumented. But Blitzer says President Trump, who often talks about MS-13 in his speeches, is using the gang as a stand-in for all immigrants, which misrepresents the situation. Blitzer has also been writing about DACA and the president's decision to terminate the program March 5 unless Congress passes legislation extending it. This week, the Senate has been debating overhauling the immigration system. So if DACA is extended or if DACA is totally cancelled, what impact would that have on MS-13?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that his description of how the gang operates misrepresents the actual structure of the gang and misrepresents the specific ways in which the gang is dangerous. What makes MS-13 so hard to dea"}
{"id": "585937834", "date": "2018-02-15", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump Uses MS-13 To 'Sell Draconian Overhauls Of Border Issues,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 15, "text": "This would be a good time to ask you to explain what DACA is and who it applies to.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There is no relationship between DACA and MS-13. And that's, you know, that's another thing that the administration has done. And it's interesting. When the Trump administration canceled DACA in Septe"}
{"id": "585937834", "date": "2018-02-15", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump Uses MS-13 To 'Sell Draconian Overhauls Of Border Issues,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 16, "text": "The reason why we're in this DACA crisis now is because President Trump created a March 5 deadline for DACA legislation, and if legislation isn't passed, the program would just end. It would be terminated. What was his stated goal for doing that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. In 2012, President Obama issued an executive action creating this policy called Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals, which is DACA. And there were roughly 1.8 million people who were eligible"}
{"id": "585937834", "date": "2018-02-15", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump Uses MS-13 To 'Sell Draconian Overhauls Of Border Issues,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 17, "text": "This was an executive decision.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My read on the situation is basically that the president wanted to appease his base in canceling DACA but that he himself had trouble doing something that was so obviously inhumane, for one thing, and"}
{"id": "585937834", "date": "2018-02-15", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump Uses MS-13 To 'Sell Draconian Overhauls Of Border Issues,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 18, "text": "On Tuesday of this week, a second federal judge ruled that President Trump hadn't offered sufficient legal reasons for ending DACA. What is that ruling about, and how is it affecting DREAMers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. It was an executive action under President Obama. And so he creates this deadline ostensibly as a way to give Congress time to act. But that deadline itself is artificial. I mean, it's totall"}
{"id": "585937834", "date": "2018-02-15", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump Uses MS-13 To 'Sell Draconian Overhauls Of Border Issues,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 19, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Jonathan Blitzer, and he writes about immigration for The New Yorker, where he's a staff writer. We're going to talk more after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So right now, because of the injunction by a judge in California in January and now this judge in New York, the cancellation of DACA has been temporarily blocked. And so for DACA recipients who "}
{"id": "585937834", "date": "2018-02-15", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump Uses MS-13 To 'Sell Draconian Overhauls Of Border Issues,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is Jonathan Blitzer, who covers immigration for The New Yorker, where he's a staff writer. So the possible outcomes for DACA are that it will be settled in Congress or in the courts or it will just end on March 5, President Trump's date to end the program. As part of a deal not to shut down the government a second time over the budget, Mitch McConnell agreed to allow one week of debate on DACA in which the Senate could write a bill from scratch. But President Trump has promised to veto any bill that doesn't address what he describes as his four pillars - building the wall, ending what he calls chain migration, which is basically allowing immigrants to bring in family members, ending the diversity visa lottery program and providing a path to citizenship for DREAMers. So President Trump is saying no room for compromise; these four things or nothing; these four things or I veto it. You've said that at this point the debate really isn't about DACA. It's about legal immigration. What do you mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So right now, because of the injunction by a judge in California in January and now this judge in New York, the cancellation of DACA has been temporarily blocked. And so for DACA recipients who "}
{"id": "585937834", "date": "2018-02-15", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump Uses MS-13 To 'Sell Draconian Overhauls Of Border Issues,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 21, "text": "And how do you think the president wants to change the composition of who comes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think what's so striking about the turn the conversation has taken in Congress is that, you know, we're really no longer talking about whether or not it is fair or makes sense to legalize the so-cal"}
{"id": "585937834", "date": "2018-02-15", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump Uses MS-13 To 'Sell Draconian Overhauls Of Border Issues,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 22, "text": "Are there people in the Trump administration who are behind this no-compromise position that the president has taken?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think since 1965, the people who have tended to come to the U.S. have less and less come - tended to come from, say, Western Europe. They tend to have come from Asia, from Latin America. And I"}
{"id": "585937834", "date": "2018-02-15", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump Uses MS-13 To 'Sell Draconian Overhauls Of Border Issues,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 23, "text": "So because of DACA hanging in the balance here, because the Senate has a week to debate a bill and because we have the March 5 deadline for DACA that President Trump laid down, the president is basically saying here's a few days to revamp the whole immigration system.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think this is all pretty clearly leading back to one person in particular, and that is the White House senior adviser, Stephen Miller. This is a vision that Stephen Miller has propounded from the st"}
{"id": "585937834", "date": "2018-02-15", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump Uses MS-13 To 'Sell Draconian Overhauls Of Border Issues,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 24, "text": "I mean, it's a huge thing to do in a few days, and there's so much at stake.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, it's..."}
{"id": "585937834", "date": "2018-02-15", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump Uses MS-13 To 'Sell Draconian Overhauls Of Border Issues,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 25, "text": "Any guesses what the outcome's going to be?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And, you know, it's interesting. In the past, the thinking on this was - and this was establishment wisdom in actually the Republican Party most specifically - if you're going to make changes to"}
{"id": "585937834", "date": "2018-02-15", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump Uses MS-13 To 'Sell Draconian Overhauls Of Border Issues,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 26, "text": "So I guess if Congress doesn't move forward with legislation on DACA, then one of two things can happen. The Supreme Court can uphold the two federal judges' injunction against President Trump's termination of DACA, or President Trump's termination of DACA could hold, and, like, that's it on March 5.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It does not seem likely that any of the proposals on the table have enough support to clear the 60-vote threshold that is necessary for a bill to basically overcome debate in the Senate and move on to"}
{"id": "585937834", "date": "2018-02-15", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump Uses MS-13 To 'Sell Draconian Overhauls Of Border Issues,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 27, "text": "So if DACA ends on March 5, what happens?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. And I think the Supreme Court decision this week - it's largely, I think, a procedural question. So the issue before the Supreme Court is, you know, can the Supreme Court issue a stay an"}
{"id": "585937834", "date": "2018-02-15", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump Uses MS-13 To 'Sell Draconian Overhauls Of Border Issues,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 28, "text": "Because they have two-year status, and when that two years expires, they'll lose their status.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So if there's no solution, if Congress just strikes out, what will start to happen is on March 6, you'll have every day from that moment forward - people who have DACA will start to lose their status."}
{"id": "585937834", "date": "2018-02-15", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump Uses MS-13 To 'Sell Draconian Overhauls Of Border Issues,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 29, "text": "Jonathan Blitzer, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. And it wasn't like everyone applied for DACA at the same time, too, so it's all staggered. And so, you know, you'll have roughly the pace of a thousand people a day. You will have people for "}
{"id": "585937834", "date": "2018-02-15", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump Uses MS-13 To 'Sell Draconian Overhauls Of Border Issues,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 30, "text": "Jonathan Blitzer is a staff writer for The New Yorker who covers immigration. After a break, David Edelstein will review the new superhero film \"Black Panther,\" based on the Marvel comic about an African king. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me, Terry."}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today we remember comic Barry Crimmins. He died of cancer last week. He was 64. Crimmins is also remembered for running comedy clubs in the '70s and '80s and launching the careers of many comics, including Bobcat Goldthwait. We're going to listen back to an interview I recorded with them both in 2015 after Goldthwait directed a documentary about Crimmins, titled, \"Call Me Lucky.\" In 1979, Crimmins founded a Boston comedy club in a Chinese restaurant called Ding Ho. A few years later, he founded another Boston comedy club, called Stitches. It wasn't until the early '90s that Crimmins revealed he was raped several times at the age of 4 or 5 by a man brought into Crimmins' home by his babysitter. After going public, he started exposing pedophiles on Internet chat rooms. We'll hear about that a little later. Goldthwait and Crimmins became friends when Goldthwait got his start in one of Crimmins' clubs in the '80s. Goldthwait became famous for his manic persona for which he used a high-pitched, screechy voice. Many people know him from his role as Zed in the \"Police Academy\" films. Eventually, he dropped the persona and became a director of independent films and TV shows, like \"Jimmy Kimmel Live\" and \"Maron.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 1, "text": "Bobcat Goldthwait, Barry Crimmins, welcome to FRESH AIR. Bobcat, I'm going to ask you to start and to introduce us to Barry Crimmins for people who don't know his comedy and his place in the comedy world. Just place us for us.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 2, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Barry is a mentor of mine, and a guy who I really look up to. His place in the comedy world is, he's been an influence on many comedians that are really popular and well-known. And he started th"}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 3, "text": "Barry, you started two comedy clubs in Boston. In 1979, you opened a comedy club within a Chinese restaurant, called the Ding Ho. And then a few years after that, you started a comedy club called Stitches. And, Bobcat, did you ever perform in either of those clubs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 4, "text": "I don't think I've ever heard the expression gut fish before.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Barry - and my act couldn't be further from what Barry was doing on stage, but Barry encouraged it. And, you know, he just encouraged me to be as odd and what interested me as a comedian."}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 5, "text": "Oh, gosh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I would just say - you know, I'd come out of the character that people know me for. People would say, stop doing that character all the time. So I went on stage and I said, hi, this is"}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I would just say - you know, I'd come out of the character that people know me for. People would say, stop doing that character all the time. So I went on stage and I said, hi, this is"}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 7, "text": "Barry Crimmins, can we just, like, tick off a list of some of the names of people who got started at your clubs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then a friend of ours, Bill Campbell, who does observational humor about relationships, had to go on stage after me with all this fish guts and vomit and..."}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 8, "text": "Patton Oswalt.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Also there's folks that later, after these clubs had gone away, that Barry either influenced or worked with - people like David Cross and John Ennis. And it's interesting. Patton's in the movie becaus"}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 9, "text": "So Bobcat, for people who don't know how you sounded on stage back in the '80s, and who don't know the kind of persona that you had then...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. So he was on - you know, I found out that he was a huge fan of Barry's and knew his history. You know, these are guys that Barry influenced, you know? And, yeah."}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 10, "text": "...I am now going to play an excerpt of something you might not remember.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 12, "text": "You remember?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I remember."}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 13, "text": "In 1987, Bobcat Goldthwait was a guest on FRESH AIR. I was not hosting that day. This was my first...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm sure."}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 14, "text": "So just to set the scene, it's, like, the show had just gone national in May. It's now August. It's my first week away from our new national edition of the show. Liane Hansen, who later becomes the host of Weekend Edition on NPR, is filling in for me. And you're going to be on the show. I'm on my way to Cape Cod, tuning in the radio, and here's what I hear.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Return triumphant appearance."}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 15, "text": "Liane Hansen is introducing Bobcat, and it's just, like, a long intro detailing his career, a little bit about his early life. It's really in detail. So here's the tail end of the intro. Here we go.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Return triumphant appearance."}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 16, "text": "No. But the character - like, how did you come up with that voice for your character?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm actually embarrassed. And also, my voice was higher. I mean, not only the character, but my voice was higher."}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 17, "text": "Let me just back-announce that tape. So that was Bobcat Goldthwait on FRESH AIR in 1987 with Liane Hansen,", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I..."}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 18, "text": ", guest hosting, and me listening in the car driving to my vacation, and thinking, what?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I..."}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I..."}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 20, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Did you turn around?"}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 21, "text": ". I thought, like, he is really hard to interview. I was thinking...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Did you go..."}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 22, "text": "...This is going to be a rough ride.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 23, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 24, "text": "What did you hate about the persona?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And so I had to jettison it just for my own sanity."}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 25, "text": "I'm excited to hear your real voice. Like, when I started hearing your real voice because I don't - as an interviewer, I don't like interviewing people in persona because I like interviewing actual people. And a persona is - it could be a very entertaining persona, but it's still...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't realize I hated it. I don't know. I just - I think maybe it's just the different time in a different place. And I know that for some people that character resonates, but I think it was a bit "}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 26, "text": "It's still something of a facade, and so you don't feel like you're talking to a real person when you're talking to a persona.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 27, "text": "I remember when I found that out, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But there was also a thing, you know, as - I was very protective of it, you know. I even remembered how sad I was when I found out that Alice Cooper liked to golf."}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 28, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, and I was like, oh, no, et tu, Alice, you know? So, you know, I think golf killed more rock stars than heroin."}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 29, "text": "So, Bobcat, as somebody who performed a lot of clubs, including at Barry's clubs, did he do anything different as a comedy club manager or owner than other clubs did?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I - you know, so I was always protective of the persona. I didn't feel ever that people needed to know who I was. I don't - even to this day to an extent. You know, I think if people really want t"}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 30, "text": "Barry, when you started your comedy clubs in the late '70s and early '80s, it's a period, or at least a period leading into one - and you can correct me if you think I'm wrong about this - when a lot of comics were incredibly sexist and homophobic. And a lot of the sex jokes, I think from a woman's point of view, were really kind of, like, insulting to women. And I'm wondering what it was like for you to run a comedy club in that period when so much of the humor was, you know - and not necessarily the humor of your clubs but maybe. I don't know. I wasn't there. But so much of the humor was like that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That was a bold, bold move. So yeah, so he did run the cubs a little differently."}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 31, "text": "If you're just joining us, we're listening back to an interview I recorded in 2015 with comics Barry Crimmins and Bobcat Goldthwait after Goldthwait directed a documentary about Crimmins called \"Call Me Lucky.\" Crimmins died last week at the age of 64. We'll hear more of our conversation after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So he was encouraging it."}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 32, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. If you're just joining us, we're remembering comic Barry Crimmins, who died last week at the age of 64. We're listening back to an interview I recorded with him and his good friend, comic and director Bobcat Goldthwait. We spoke in 2015 after Goldthwait directed a documentary about Crimmins and his contribution to the comedy scene and about how he was sexually abused as a child. In the '90s, Crimmins became an activist, pressuring AOL to shut down chat rooms where child porn was being circulated and working with the FBI to clamp down on child pornographers. Our interview was recorded in 2015 when the documentary came out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So he was encouraging it."}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 33, "text": "Bobcat Goldthwait, why did you want to make a film about him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So he was encouraging it."}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 34, "text": "And, Barry Crimmins, how did you react to the idea of a documentary about you - a documentary that would include you talking about being raped as a child?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I've always wanted to make a movie about Barry - I'm jumping ahead of the story - when he was testifying - after he testified on a judiciary Senate committee against Internet child pornography, "}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 35, "text": "Barry, you were known for being a very angry comic on stage, for sometimes heckling the audience, for sometimes berating other comics for being shallow. So now it's assumed that the anger came from having been raped repeatedly as a child. Do you think that that's true? Do you think that that is the source of the anger?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So we're already in hot water, you know. My - you know, I'm used to making my movies for very little money and way outside the system. So, yeah, there was going to be a lot of problems making it as a "}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 36, "text": "I don't know. In the movie, it seems like you did", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it's certainly a source of some stuff. First off, I don't - I didn't berate that many comics really. I mean, I would - you know, I would give them some..."}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 37, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it's certainly a source of some stuff. First off, I don't - I didn't berate that many comics really. I mean, I would - you know, I would give them some..."}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 38, "text": "Oh, no, absolutely, yeah, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was relaxing by then. But I really didn't - I mean, I think you can see how many good friends I have who are comedians. You don't make..."}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 39, "text": "We're listening back to an interview with comics Barry Crimmins and Bobcat Goldthwait. Crimmins died last week of cancer at the age of 64. We spoke in 2015 after Goldthwait directed a documentary about Crimmins called \"Call Me Lucky.\" After a break, we'll hear about how Crimmins went public about the sexual abuse he suffered as a child and became an activist trying to shut down child porn on the Internet. And our TV critic David Bianculli will review the new season of the Netflix series \"Jessica Jones\" based on the Marvel comic character. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was never one of those guys, where are you from, what do you do, you know, and harassing someone in the front row because they've got a funny-looking shirt on. I would like to - but going back to - "}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 40, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're remembering comic Barry Crimmins, who died last week at age 64. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with Crimmins and Bobcat Goldthwait, one of the comics whose careers were launched by Crimmins when Crimmins ran a couple of Boston comedy clubs in the '70s and '80s. When I spoke with them in 2015, Goldthwait had just directed a documentary about Crimmins titled \"Call Me Lucky.\" In addition to focusing on Crimmins' place in comedy, it told the story of how Crimmins was left traumatized after being raped several times as a child. In the '90s, Crimmins became an anti-child porn activist, tracking down pedophiles operating in Internet chat rooms. I want to let parents of young children know that we're about to talk about the lasting impact of being abused.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was never one of those guys, where are you from, what do you do, you know, and harassing someone in the front row because they've got a funny-looking shirt on. I would like to - but going back to - "}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 41, "text": "So, Barry Crimmins, let me just ask you a little bit about those formative experiences when you were repeatedly raped by - was it your babysitter's father?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was never one of those guys, where are you from, what do you do, you know, and harassing someone in the front row because they've got a funny-looking shirt on. I would like to - but going back to - "}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 42, "text": "Yeah, I certainly wonder that too. Was there anyone you could tell or ask to protect you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was - I didn't - it was some sort of relationship that wouldn't have been made clear in the late '50s but probably like a boyfriend or something of the kid's mother. And she would come over for a w"}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 43, "text": "She walked in on you as it was happening?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was pretty young, you know, so - and then really put into it shock. So I guess that's why - I mean, I can't really figure it out to a T. My sister did end up protecting me when she finally discovere"}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 44, "text": "How old were you? And how old was your sister?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, well, she came down - yeah, she came down the basement stairs. In my head, I always had this picture of her being caught by the foot. And you see in the movie, at one point, I'm looking at the s"}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 45, "text": "How long did it go on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was four. And she doesn't - she says five in the movie, but she was actually about eight."}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 46, "text": "Did you remember this happening? I mean, did the memory always stay with you? Or do you repressed it for a while?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's hard to say. I would say over a period of weeks. It happened several times."}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 47, "text": "So was it your sister who brought it up with you - that helped bring back memories and helped you get to the point of talking about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, I say, I always knew, and I never knew him. But when I would have flashbacks or whatever, I would be - it's hard to be verbal because when you're 4 years old, you don't have a big vocabu"}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 48, "text": "So you wrote repeatedly to AOL and asked them to shut down these pedophile chat rooms.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I was really at the end of my rope. I was in LA writing \"The Dennis Miller Show.\" And this is the scoop for you. I was a bit suicidal at the time. But then when she, you know, disclosed "}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 49, "text": "We're talking dial-up era.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And they were making a lot of money on it. So they just found a lot - because, back in those days, the modems were really slow. And so it took like a half hour to upload a, you know, low-grade "}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 50, "text": "So you eventually testified to the Senate Judiciary Committee. They were investigating child pornography. And you brought it to the area of internet child pornography - only to find that most of the senators on the Judiciary Committee had never been online. They didn't understand how the internet worked. And they didn't really comprehend the concept of a chatroom. So it was hard for them - it's my understanding it was hard for them to really comprehend what you were talking about. Nevertheless, what was the outcome of - what do you think was the final outcome of your protest to AOL, your testifying to the Senate Judiciary Committee and your going to - was it the DA's office in Cleveland?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, right. And so it took a long time to upload each photo. And all these - and then if you're on AOL for more than 12 hours or something a month, they started charging you three or four dollars an"}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 51, "text": "If you're just joining us, we're listening back to an interview I recorded in 2015 with comics Barry Crimmins and Bobcat Goldthwait. Barry Crimmins died last week. We'll hear the rest of our conversation after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Well, yeah, the - no, the FBI picked up all the information from me. They picked up all the files I had. I know that some arrests were made. Because of that, I couldn't quantify it for you. But"}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 52, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're listening back to my interview with comics Bobcat Goldthwait and Barry Crimmins. Crimmins died last week at the age of 64. We spoke in 2015 after Goldthwait made a documentary about Crimmins focusing on Crimmins' place in comedy and on the trauma of having been raped as a child. Crimmins became an anti-child porn activist. When we left off, Crimmins was talking about tracking down pedophiles on Internet chatrooms. (SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED BROADCAST)", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Well, yeah, the - no, the FBI picked up all the information from me. They picked up all the files I had. I know that some arrests were made. Because of that, I couldn't quantify it for you. But"}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 53, "text": "Barry Crimmins, do you feel like you were ever psychologically hurting yourself or risking hurting yourself by looking at so much child pornography in an attempt to bring down the child pornographers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Well, yeah, the - no, the FBI picked up all the information from me. They picked up all the files I had. I know that some arrests were made. Because of that, I couldn't quantify it for you. But"}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 54, "text": "So the the man who abused you, who knew your babysitter - and you're not quite clear what his relationship to her was.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, it was a difficult period for me. But it just came down to it was a more difficult period for those children. It was - and there were more children out there who hadn't been harmed yet, "}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 55, "text": "You eventually found out he did time in prison for abusing boys. What did you learn about him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 56, "text": "If you're just joining us, I have two guests. Bobcat Goldthwait is a comic and director who just made a movie documenting the life of his good friend Barry Crimmins, who is also a comic who founded two important comedy clubs in Boston. And this documentary is about his contribution to the comedy scene. But it also is about his childhood when he was abused as a child and then later as an adult tried to out child pornographers and did a pretty successful job at getting some of them put behind bars. So, you know, finally I'm thinking - one of the things I thought about watching the movie - because part of the movie is about the comedy scene that Barry helped create. And there's a lot of comics in the movie reflecting on why they feel so strongly about Barry and their relationship to him and all they've done - all that he's done to help them and everything. And I was just thinking about, like, you both got to know each other when you were young. And a lot of the comics in there got to know Barry when they were young. And then you see what's happened to a lot of these people now. And you think about like some of the comics who were fueled by, you know, kind of like anger and insecurity have gone on to do such interesting things. And, you know, like, Bobcat, like you've dropped the persona. And you're like - you're directing things. You directed Kimmel's show for three years. You've directed episodes of Marc Maron's show. You're doing independent movies that have developed quite a cult following. Barry, you've gone on to, you know, have a mission as well as to continue with comedy. And so I guess I'm just kind of curious in hearing you reflect how you've seen yourselves and other comics change as they've gotten older and as some of like the more youthful anger or the more youthful insecurities give way to other emotions, other activities, other reflections.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I learned that he came from, you know, a tough background. And he had spent a lot of time in the system as a child - in foster homes and so on and so forth. And, you know, he had a terrible life. And "}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 57, "text": "Well, you're going to have to come back. Barry, is there anything you want to add about watching yourself or other comics get older?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So this kind of exposure is really special to me. And I appreciate you having us on."}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 58, "text": "Well, I want to thank you both so much for talking with us. And congratulations on the film. Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that as we - a lot of us are drawn to the stage, show business or whatever because we didn't feel so great about ourselves. And we didn't know how to do anything about that. So we sought exter"}
{"id": "591877483", "date": "2018-03-08", "guest": "Bobcat Goldthwait", "title": "Remembering Barry Crimmins, A Comic Who Advocated For Survivors Of Sexual Abuse", "question_index": 59, "text": "Barry Crimmins and Bobcat Goldthwait recorded in 2015. Crimmins died last week of cancer. He was 64. Goldthwait's documentary about Crimmins is titled \"Call Me Lucky.\" Coming up, our TV critic, David Bianculli, reviews the new season of the Netflix series \"Jessica Jones\" based on the Marvel comic character. This is FRESH AIR. (SOUNDBITE OF GERALD CLAYTON'S \"SOUL STOMP\")", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you so much. This has been exciting."}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest has put herself in great danger to report on the Syrian civil war. The danger comes from the exposure to bombs and bullets as well as from threats from the government. Rania Abouzeid was placed on the wanted list of three of the four main intelligence directorates in Damascus. She was banned from entering the country. So she's trekked in from the Turkish border. Syria is the world's deadliest country for journalists, according to the group Reporters Without Borders. Half of Syria's population has been displaced by the war. The death toll has been estimated at half a million. Abouzeid started reporting on Syria in 2011 when the uprising against the Assad regime began. And she continued when the conflict turned into civil war. Civil war was part of her childhood. Abouzeid grew up in Australia, the daughter of Lebanese immigrants who left the country during Lebanon's civil war. As a child, she spent time in Beirut during the war, visiting her grandparents. Now Abouzeid lives in Lebanon. Her new book \"No Turning Back: Life, Loss, And Hope In Wartime Syria,\" tells the story of Syria's civil war through her reporting on members of rival radical Islamist groups, prisoners and families who have been victims of the war. Her reporting has been published in The New Yorker, Politico, Time and Foreign Policy. Rania Abouzeid, welcome to FRESH AIR. So this week marks the seventh anniversary of the uprising in Syria of the start of the Syrian revolution, which turned into a civil war. Why has the civil war gone on so long?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 1, "text": "So in addition to this being a proxy war, what is it about? Is it just about a fight for power? Is it still about overthrowing Assad?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because like most civil wars, it became a proxy war for international powers with the Russians and the Iranians, Lebanese Hezbollah, Iraqi Shiite militias and Afghan mercenaries on Assad's side and Qa"}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 2, "text": "So you say in your book that Syria has ceased to be a unified state, except in memories and on maps. So what is it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The thing about the Syrian uprising is that it was existential from the beginning. The protesters knew that when they took to the streets. And the Assad regime knew that. This was a fight to the end f"}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 3, "text": "So in the summer of 2011, when the protests against the Assad regime was still going strong, but Syria hadn't yet collapsed into civil war, you were blacklisted by the Syrian regime. You were called a spy for several foreign states. You were placed on the wanted list of three of the four main intelligence directorates in Damascus. You were banned from entering the country. Why did you decide to keep returning in spite of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a collection of shards. It is a broken place. It is a place where Syrians talk about territory that they have liberated from other Syrians. It is a place that is very fragmented. There are parts "}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 4, "text": "So what can you tell us - if anything - about how you clandestinely kept entering Syria?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I couldn't imagine staying away from it. And, you know, to be clear, I'm not an adrenaline junkie by any means. But it was the story and the importance of the story and my ability to also move clandes"}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Do you have an accent when you speak?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In summer 2011, I started entering Syria from the Turkish border - smuggled across the border. And it was a pretty porous border at that time. It wasn't difficult to get into Syria from Turkey. And th"}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 6, "text": "So that must've been difficult for you to overcome.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do, unfortunately. I speak with a Lebanese accent. And I say unfortunately because Lebanese parties were involved in the Syrian conflict from very early on. Lebanese - the Lebanese group Hezbollah w"}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 7, "text": "So were you able to get the trust of different sides, different militias?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was. It was. But it was happening so often that I, you know - I figured out a way to get out of it. And as people came to know me more, as commanders - rebel commanders came to know me, as my conta"}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 8, "text": "So you write that initially, you were forced to focus on the rebel side because you were...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes. And that's one of the reasons that enabled me to continue going back for as long as I did on the rebel side."}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 9, "text": "...Crossing the border illegally. So - because it's the government that wanted you arrested. So you had to stay with the rebels?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Are you still on a blacklist? Is there still warrants out for your arrest?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And I physically couldn't get into Damascus. I - you know, my name was at the border. I couldn't cross it. And to be smuggled from Lebanon at the time into Damascus was a very dangerous thing for"}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 11, "text": "So you've spoken to people. You've reported on people from different competing militias. Did you worry that someone from a rival militia would turn you in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That hasn't changed, unfortunately."}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 12, "text": "To the government or to another militia, to their own militia. It seems like everybody's at war with each other in Syria. So there's so many options for you to either be kidnapped or imprisoned or harmed in some way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To the government?"}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 13, "text": "I have to say that depends on the person who you've decided is the person who can bail you out still being alive because in Syria, you never know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I mean, kidnapping threats were made a few times. And it was my relationships on the ground that prevented them. Once again, you know, if I dropped the right name, I would be OK in certain areas."}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 14, "text": "...Who's going to be...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 15, "text": "...Alive the next day.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 16, "text": "How did you protect your notes? Because I'm sure you wanted to protect the confidence of people who were talking to you and not give anything away.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes. That's very true. And that sadly happened a number of times. And that's the reality of war. I mean, I remember there was one time when I was going to go in for a story. And before I did, the"}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That is my - of paramount concern - that protecting my sources is utmost in my mind all the time. Well, first of all, frankly, I don't think anybody can read my handwriting."}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 18, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is journalist Rania Abouzeid who's been covering the civil war in Syria since the protests started there in 2011. She's the author of the new book \"No Turning Back: Life, Loss And Hope In Wartime Syria.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can't read my handwriting. And I would take my notes, keep them on a digital recorder and hide it in various places - never use full names. I would use descriptors. Like I said, that is the most imp"}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, we're talking about covering the civil war in Syria. My guest is journalist Rania Abouzeid. Her new book is called \"No Turning Back: Life, Loss And Hope In Wartime Syria.\" What was it like for you to interview radicals who wanted an Islamic state in which there would be - I'm sure - no rights for women? These are not your views, but you're trying to accurately present the point of view of the people who are the radicals - who are the extremists. So can you talk a little bit about developing a relationship of trust with them, where they trusted you with their story and you trusted them not to harm you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can't read my handwriting. And I would take my notes, keep them on a digital recorder and hide it in various places - never use full names. I would use descriptors. Like I said, that is the most imp"}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 20, "text": "From the beginning of the war?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I'm a journalist. I want to talk to everybody. And my goal in speaking with people is to - not to judge them, not to turn them into caricatures but to try and understand them because I think"}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 21, "text": "I imagine some of these men in al-Qaida admired your bravery and were also baffled by it because you're a woman.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "From the beginning of the uprising, yes. And I just pursued them the way that I would pursue any journalistic relationship with a source."}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 22, "text": "I have to say. It sounds strange to be in a town with no women.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, it's - you'd be surprised how - the Syrians were one thing, and the foreigners in the group were different. The Syrians at the end of the day were still Syrians. And I could talk to th"}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Yeah. So you mentioned that the foreign fighters would not want to look you in the eye, but the fighters who were from Syria, who are more comfortable around women, could converse with you more easily. So I know Syrian fighters had gone to Iraq.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean, it was. It was a frontline town."}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Like, radicalized Syrians had gone to Iraq to fight with the radical groups there. So did a lot of - have a lot of radical fighters from other countries come to Syria to fight in the civil war?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Did you go home when you were told to go home?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So many - so many different nationalities I can't even begin to count them. Just the ones that I would see crossing the borders or at airports - Albanians, Moroccans, Iraqis, Egyptians, Libyans. It dr"}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 26, "text": "So are the foreign fighters in Syria hoping to build a caliphate or just an Islamic State in Syria?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I did because, I mean, that's why I went there to see them. And frankly, I was a little bit peeved. So I was like, OK, fine, I'll go back this time. And I'll plan a different trip because I'd al"}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 27, "text": "You know, in the U.S., we used to be so focused on al-Qaida. And now we're really focused on ISIS. But are there are lots of other groups of various names that are not called ISIS or al-Qaida that pose the same threat?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the first state would be - the first step would be an Islamic state and then from there, you know, an Islamic state that expands. That's their ideal."}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 28, "text": "A threat to, you know, the Middle East and to the West.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A threat to the West, you mean?"}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 29, "text": "What are some of the differences?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Islamism is a spectrum. And it's a very vast and broad spectrum. Even the idea of a Salafi, you know, a conservative Sunni Muslim - they're also a spectrum. They're not all the same. And I think that "}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 30, "text": "Your ability to get around and be protected in Syria depends on people vouching for you, people from different sides, people from different militias. And their vouching for you depends on their feeling that you are treating them fairly in your reporting. Did you have any journalism - like, official journalism training, or did you kind of learn the rules of journalism on your own or come up with your own rules for what kind of journalist you wanted to be?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there are some Salafis, for example, who believe that they shouldn't get involved in politics and that they should be subservient to the leader. There are some who say that they will get involve"}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 31, "text": "So the people who pulled you in for questioning - you're talking about militia leaders?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'll answer that in a bit. But before I do, I just want to say that, yes, I did depend, in part, on them vouching for me and also on my ability to move around and just do what I wanted to do. But I wa"}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 32, "text": "My guest is journalist Rania Abouzeid, author of the new book \"No Turning Back: Life, Loss, And Hope In Wartime Syria.\" Coming up, we'll talk about how the civil war in Lebanon, where her parents are from, affected her childhood and her reporting. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I'm talking about rebels from - whether they were the leaders or the media officer or whoever it might be - all sorts of different people."}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 33, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross, back with journalist Rania Abouzeid, author of the new book \"No Turning Back: Life, Loss, And Hope In Wartime Syria.\" She started covering Syria in 2011 when the uprising against the Assad regime began. She continued covering Syria as the conflict turned into civil war. Abouzeid is the daughter of Lebanese parents who raised her in Australia at the time of the civil war in Lebanon. She now lives in Lebanon. Just a heads-up before we get back to the interview - she's going to give an unsettling description of a child who was seriously injured in the Syrian civil war. So one of the people you profile is a 9-year-old girl - at least, she starts out being 9 when you start writing about her. Her name is Ruha. And why did you want to write from the point of view of a child experiencing the war?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I'm talking about rebels from - whether they were the leaders or the media officer or whoever it might be - all sorts of different people."}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 34, "text": "So you grew up in Australia and New Zealand, but your parents are from Lebanon.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wanted to show the effects of revolution and war from a child's eyes and from a family's perspective. I wanted to present the family unit. But I wanted to focus on this young girl because she was ju"}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 35, "text": "And you spent time there with extended family during the civil war in Lebanon.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 36, "text": "So were you interested in talking to Ruha, the 9-year-old girl who became older as you covered her over the years - were you interested in talking to her in part because you witnessed civil war as a child yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 37, "text": "Did your parents move back to Lebanon after the civil war?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My parents used to bring us for holidays during Beirut's war - which sounds crazy. I know. But the thing about civil war is that it can be raging in one neighborhood, and there can be nothing in the a"}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 38, "text": "Why did you return to Lebanon?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They did some years later - not immediately after the civil war. And when they returned, it was to a country that they didn't recognize anymore and one that they couldn't live in. So they went back ho"}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 39, "text": "So you weren't terrified of the things that you saw in the civil war when you were a child visiting relatives?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They're always asking me why I, quote, \"reverse-migrated.\" I went back because I felt drawn to the news from this region. I felt drawn to the region. And it was the place of my heritage, and I wanted "}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 40, "text": "You know, while talking about children in civil war, there's an image in your book that's really hard to shake. It's of a girl whose head has been split open. There's shrapnel in her neck, shrapnel in her eye. And a doctor is working on her without anesthesia.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wasn't terrified because, at the time, I wasn't - I didn't really know what some of them were. I remember evenings when I would watch the red tracer bullets, and they would go from one neighborhood "}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 41, "text": "And I'm thinking what it is like to be a child experiencing that level of civil war and being wounded - and I don't even know what situation her parents were in at that moment.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 42, "text": "Did you talk to her directly at all?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. She was calling out to her mother, and she was crying out for her mother. And her mother wasn't there, but her father was. He held her hand as the doctor operated on her without anesthetic, and h"}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 43, "text": "I can't imagine what it's like to be a parent in a situation like that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no. I - it wasn't the time to talk to her. It was a mad, mad night. Something like 25, 35 people were killed in air strikes that night, and they were coming into the hospital. The dead, the wounde"}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 44, "text": "Did you experience any barrel bombs being dropped?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, heartbreaking - heartbreaking to see your child in pain. And there's nothing you can do about it. You just - her father just held her hand and told her she'd be OK. That was all that he could do"}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 45, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is journalist Rania Abouzeid. Her new book is called \"No Turning Back: Life, Loss And Hope In Wartime Syria.\" And she's covered the war since 2011 when the uprising started. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes - many times, many, many times. You know, barrel bombs are particularly horrific. They're unguided weapons. And they're dropped from helicopter gunships. So so many times, you could see it. S"}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 46, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and we're talking about the war in Syria. My guest journalist Rania Abouzeid has covered the war since 2011 when the uprising against Bashar al-Assad first started. Her new book is called \"No Turning Back: Life, Loss And Hope In Wartime Syria.\" When you're being bombed, unlike the Syrians who actually live in Syria, you'll be able to get out. Assuming you're not injured, you'll be able to get out and get back home. But are you concerned about post-traumatic stress?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes - many times, many, many times. You know, barrel bombs are particularly horrific. They're unguided weapons. And they're dropped from helicopter gunships. So so many times, you could see it. S"}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 47, "text": "The dedication in your book about the Syrian civil war reads (reading) for my parents, my sisters, my family. I carried your love and support in my heart every time I crossed the mountains while on my shoulders I bore the guilt of taking you with me. What's the guilt you're referring to there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a thing. It's a thing. And it's something that our community needs to take seriously, and it does. I - you know, thank God - don't suffer from it. And I think in part it might be because of that "}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 48, "text": "You've taken great risks to cover the civil war in Syria over these past seven years. Right now, so many Americans are obsessed with the Trump presidency and with investigations into the Trump campaign and the Trump White House. And it's kind of filling a lot of the news mental capacity of a lot of Americans.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The guilt that they were worried. They were concerned. I knew that I was relatively okay when I was inside, but they didn't. They spent their hours, days, weeks wondering if I was okay. And even if I "}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 49, "text": "And it's shutting out a lot of stories.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 50, "text": "And I'm wondering if as a journalist you're feeling that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 51, "text": "Like literally?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And it shut out one of my Syria stories."}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 52, "text": "What was the story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Literally shut out one of my Syria stories. And it was an exclusive, and it was in a place that no journalist has yet been to. And because of Trump-mania, the story sat on an editor's desk for five mo"}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 53, "text": "One more thing - I'm wondering since you've interviewed so many people in the various militias in the Syrian civil war, have you come across a lot of people who just end up disillusioned, who think, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The story - I went to Idlib City, which is the provincial capital of Idlib province. And at the time, it was run by a conservative Islamist coalition. They had imposed a dress code on the women. They "}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 54, "text": "...This is an unwinnable war? We're just destroying the country. The people heading the militia are extremists, or they're not really idealists.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 55, "text": "I'm out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 56, "text": "You've covered the war in Iraq. You've covered the civil war in Syria. You're doing a documentary on Afghanistan. You've spent so much time in broken countries. How does that affect the way you see the world and the way that you see humanity? I mean, you've witnessed people doing, you know, heroic things, and you've witnessed people like really doing terrible things.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So many times, so many different examples of this. And the thing is that, you know, we say rebels, and it's a catch-all phrase. But there were many different types of rebels. There were men who just p"}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 57, "text": "Well, Rania Abouzeid, I want to thank you for taking the risk that you take to report the story in Syria. And thank you for joining us on FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's the flip side of a coin, I guess. It's the spectrum of humanity but - yet on overdrive. And it's always a - it's a privilege. It really is a privilege to be entrusted with somebody's story."}
{"id": "592882533", "date": "2018-03-12", "guest": "Rania Abouzeid", "title": "Blacklisted From Syria, A Journalist Says: 'I Couldn't Imagine Staying Away'", "question_index": 58, "text": "Rania Abouzeid is the author of the new book \"No Turning Back: Life, Loss And Hope In Wartime Syria.\" She lives in Lebanon. After we take a short break, John Powers will review a new book by one of his favorite authors. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much."}
{"id": "593863645", "date": "2018-03-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Robots Are Now 'Creating New Robots,' Tech Reporter Says", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. There's been a huge boon in the evolution of artificial intelligence over just the past five years due to more high-powered computers, new kinds of programs and an increasing pool of data to learn from. This has led to new developments such as driverless cars, machines that can carry on a conversation and robots that can interpret medical scans. Today, we're going to talk about this rapidly changing world of artificial intelligence and how these new high-tech developments may change our lives for better or for worse. I've also just described the beat that my guest, tech reporter Cade Metz, covers for The New York Times. He was formerly a staff writer at Wired magazine. He's currently at work on a book about the visionaries behind new developments in artificial intelligence. Cade Metz, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "593863645", "date": "2018-03-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Robots Are Now 'Creating New Robots,' Tech Reporter Says", "question_index": 1, "text": "So you've been writing a lot about artificial intelligence, and you're writing a book about it, too, now. So let's talk about that. What is artificial intelligence? What do we mean now when we say it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "593863645", "date": "2018-03-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Robots Are Now 'Creating New Robots,' Tech Reporter Says", "question_index": 2, "text": "So let's back up. These are systems that can - what did you say? They can learn on their own.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a really good question. And it's, on some levels, a hard question to answer just because people tend to throw around this term, and they have for a long time, to describe almost anything. And u"}
{"id": "593863645", "date": "2018-03-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Robots Are Now 'Creating New Robots,' Tech Reporter Says", "question_index": 3, "text": "So another example you've mentioned in your reporting is how there are now some computers that can read scans to see, for instance, if there's a nodule in a lung that might be a sign of cancer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. They're called neural networks. And that's a metaphor. They're meant to mimic the web of neurons in the brain. But really, they're just math. They're mathematical algorithms that analyze data"}
{"id": "593863645", "date": "2018-03-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Robots Are Now 'Creating New Robots,' Tech Reporter Says", "question_index": 4, "text": "And so smart speakers, where you could tell the speaker what to play or what to turn on, that's also artificial intelligence, the same kind of learning pattern that you're describing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. It's the same basic technology. The same technology that allows Facebook to recognize faces on its social network can allow machines to analyze medical scans and recognize when there are sign"}
{"id": "593863645", "date": "2018-03-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Robots Are Now 'Creating New Robots,' Tech Reporter Says", "question_index": 5, "text": "On a related note, like, when you talk to, say, Siri or to a smart speaker, how is the voice created that's responding to you? Is that actually a person's voice that's been programmed in such a way so that it can be responding to what you're saying? Or is that, like, a combination, like, a mashup of a lot of different human voices that have become this one robotic voice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's exactly the same thing. So the - you know, the Amazon Echo, which sits on the coffee tables of so many people now, or Siri on the iPhone, they train these systems using real human speech, and the"}
{"id": "593863645", "date": "2018-03-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Robots Are Now 'Creating New Robots,' Tech Reporter Says", "question_index": 6, "text": "What are some of the limitations that researchers are trying to overcome now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it depends on which system you use. But for instance, Google's system is now, in much the same way, trained on real human speech. So it can - it has analyzed an enormous amount of human speech, "}
{"id": "593863645", "date": "2018-03-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Robots Are Now 'Creating New Robots,' Tech Reporter Says", "question_index": 7, "text": "So you've described that these neural networks, the algorithms that are used for artificial intelligence that can learn to do things and kind of mimic human thought and behavior, they're meant to mimic the neurons in the brain. So what does that mean exactly? Like, how do you get algorithms to mimic the way the brain works?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there are myriad limitations. For instance, researchers have realized that you can fool these systems into, say, seeing things that aren't there or to thinking they see things when they aren't r"}
{"id": "593863645", "date": "2018-03-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Robots Are Now 'Creating New Robots,' Tech Reporter Says", "question_index": 8, "text": "Yeah. I was thinking that, too", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is a key question. So let me make it clear that is just a metaphor in many respects, right? This is an old idea. It dates back to the '50s and the late '50s when they first built these types of a"}
{"id": "593863645", "date": "2018-03-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Robots Are Now 'Creating New Robots,' Tech Reporter Says", "question_index": 9, "text": ". Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is a key question. So let me make it clear that is just a metaphor in many respects, right? This is an old idea. It dates back to the '50s and the late '50s when they first built these types of a"}
{"id": "593863645", "date": "2018-03-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Robots Are Now 'Creating New Robots,' Tech Reporter Says", "question_index": 10, "text": "So we should take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Cade Metz. We're talking about artificial intelligence and new breakthroughs in related technology. He's a tech reporter for The New York Times. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So let's get to the point where we understand the brain completely. Then we can think about truly rebuilding the brain in digital form. That's an impossibility at this point. But essentially, you know"}
{"id": "593863645", "date": "2018-03-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Robots Are Now 'Creating New Robots,' Tech Reporter Says", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, we're talking about artificial intelligence and other breakthroughs in high tech. My guest, Cade Metz, is a tech correspondent for The New York Times and is writing a book about artificial intelligence. So, you know, getting back to voice recognition and trying to make computers conversational, tell the story of the - I don't know what to call it, a computer or what - that was being taught speech and ended up picking up a lot of like racist terms and Holocaust-denying expressions. And the company ended up discontinuing this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So let's get to the point where we understand the brain completely. Then we can think about truly rebuilding the brain in digital form. That's an impossibility at this point. But essentially, you know"}
{"id": "593863645", "date": "2018-03-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Robots Are Now 'Creating New Robots,' Tech Reporter Says", "question_index": 12, "text": "As we were saying before, you know, computers have to like - robots have to learn in order to function. They first have to learn. And you write about reinforcement learning, how some bots like learn tasks through trial and error. And you describe a project that was a Google project creating a bot that could beat the world's best player at the game of Go. So how did that bot learn through trial and error and reward? It sounds like a really behavioral kind of approach to behavioral psychology - reward and punishment type of approach without the punishment.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was an earlier Microsoft project called Tay. And it's kind of a famous example of these types of systems gone wrong. It was an earlier system. And it had a - it had a serious design flaw. In many"}
{"id": "593863645", "date": "2018-03-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Robots Are Now 'Creating New Robots,' Tech Reporter Says", "question_index": 13, "text": "Oh, really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, you could add the punishment, to tell you the truth."}
{"id": "593863645", "date": "2018-03-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Robots Are Now 'Creating New Robots,' Tech Reporter Says", "question_index": 14, "text": "In which part - you've programmed the bot to try to get more points and not lose points, and that's its goal. And so it learns that some decisions lead to gaining points and some decisions lead to losing points. And it tries to orient itself toward its goal of gaining points. Is that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This project was a project out of a lab in London called DeepMind, which is now owned by Google. They built a machine, like you said, to play the ancient game of Go, which is the Eastern version of ch"}
{"id": "593863645", "date": "2018-03-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Robots Are Now 'Creating New Robots,' Tech Reporter Says", "question_index": 15, "text": "My guest is Cade Metz, a technology correspondent for The New York Times. After a break, we'll talk about why some artificial intelligence designers are worried about the possibility of creating intelligent machines that will refuse to allow humans to turn them off. And Milo Miles will review two Kronos Quartet albums, one in collaboration with Laurie Anderson, the other in collaboration with a group from Mali. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. And if you do that on an enormous scale, over millions of games, you learn which moves are going to gain you points versus which ones are going to lose points, which ones are going to get you"}
{"id": "593863645", "date": "2018-03-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Robots Are Now 'Creating New Robots,' Tech Reporter Says", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross, back with Cade Metz, a tech correspondent for The New York Times. He writes about new developments in artificial intelligence and robotics like driverless cars, machines that can carry on a conversation, robots that can interpret medical scans and how these and other new high-tech developments may change our lives for better or worse. He's at work on a book about the visionaries behind new developments in artificial intelligence. Now that we've learned so much about hacking through Russian interference in our election with like fake news and fake accounts on social media, the thought of there being robots that can be hacked by a malevolent actor is really scary because if robots are designed to do important things, whether it's like, you know, reading a lung scan to see if a person has cancer or whether it's a driverless car, if somebody can hack into that for devious reasons, that's kind of terrifying. So are designers worried about being able to adequately design safeguards?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. And if you do that on an enormous scale, over millions of games, you learn which moves are going to gain you points versus which ones are going to lose points, which ones are going to get you"}
{"id": "593863645", "date": "2018-03-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Robots Are Now 'Creating New Robots,' Tech Reporter Says", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yeah, that's a really scary thought. I will say you had some of the images of these computer-generated celebrity faces online. And it's kind of hilarious because they look exactly like generic celebrities - like there's a certain generic celebrity look, you know? And I have to say that the computers - the artificial intelligence captured it perfectly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They are certainly worried. There was a report recently, pulled together by a group of technologists and researchers across various companies, research labs and think tanks across the U.S. and the U.K"}
{"id": "593863645", "date": "2018-03-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Robots Are Now 'Creating New Robots,' Tech Reporter Says", "question_index": 18, "text": "Why not? Why don't they understand them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's what is doing. It's identifying patterns, right? There are patterns that you and I respond to. And we say, ah, that's a celebrity, right? And some cases, those are intuitive. We can't nec"}
{"id": "593863645", "date": "2018-03-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Robots Are Now 'Creating New Robots,' Tech Reporter Says", "question_index": 19, "text": "So in other words, you have no idea why the size of the woman celebrity's lips are they are or why the length of stubble on the male celebrity's beard is - like the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, can you analyze millions of photos in a matter of minutes? You can't, right? You cannot identify the patterns that that system identified. You can't pinpoint the exact decisions it made over the"}
{"id": "593863645", "date": "2018-03-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Robots Are Now 'Creating New Robots,' Tech Reporter Says", "question_index": 20, "text": "...Or, you know, what's considered like the perfect eyes for a celebrity. Like, the artificial intelligence has made a gazillion calculations, and you're just kind of generalizing when you say something.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely, or..."}
{"id": "593863645", "date": "2018-03-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Robots Are Now 'Creating New Robots,' Tech Reporter Says", "question_index": 21, "text": "And the machine isn't going to be rattled by anxiety.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely, or think about it like this. Think back to what we discussed about the game of Go and that system that the DeepMind Lab in London built to play the game of Go. Some of the designers on tha"}
{"id": "593863645", "date": "2018-03-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Robots Are Now 'Creating New Robots,' Tech Reporter Says", "question_index": 22, "text": "Right. OK, so let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Cade Metz. He's a tech correspondent for The New York Times. We're going to talk more about artificial intelligence after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's also true. And it doesn't need to sleep."}
{"id": "593863645", "date": "2018-03-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Robots Are Now 'Creating New Robots,' Tech Reporter Says", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Cade Metz. He's a tech correspondent for The New York Times where he writes about artificial intelligence, driverless cars, robotics, virtual reality and other emerging areas in high tech. OK, so another fear that you were right about - that some people have about artificial intelligence - and I think these are designers who are worried about it - is the fear that AI systems will learn to prevent humans from turning them off. When I read this, of course, the first thing I thought of is the computer HAL in \"2001: A Space Odyssey\" because HAL is refusing to be turned off.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's also true. And it doesn't need to sleep."}
{"id": "593863645", "date": "2018-03-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Robots Are Now 'Creating New Robots,' Tech Reporter Says", "question_index": 24, "text": "So how would you elaborate on what this fear is - what the danger is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "593863645", "date": "2018-03-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Robots Are Now 'Creating New Robots,' Tech Reporter Says", "question_index": 25, "text": "Can you give us an example of the kind of scenario where a bot would not allow itself to be turned off because it was pursuing the reward that it was programmed to pursue, like getting points for making the right decision?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I like that you bring up HAL in \"2001\" - one of my favorite movies, certainly. And I have to say it's the favorite movie of many of these AI researchers who are designing these systems. If y"}
{"id": "593863645", "date": "2018-03-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Robots Are Now 'Creating New Robots,' Tech Reporter Says", "question_index": 26, "text": "Wow, that's so interesting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, loosely speaking - right? - if you're trying to - I mean, again, this is largely theory. But if you're trying to maximize your points, you're not going to keep accumulating points if you"}
{"id": "593863645", "date": "2018-03-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Robots Are Now 'Creating New Robots,' Tech Reporter Says", "question_index": 27, "text": "Yeah. So are we at the point where robots are designing other robots - where artificial intelligence is creating new forms of artificial intelligence?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Isn't it?"}
{"id": "593863645", "date": "2018-03-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Robots Are Now 'Creating New Robots,' Tech Reporter Says", "question_index": 28, "text": "Why did you start writing about technology?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In certain small ways - what's really interesting to me is that building these neural networks is very different than building other forms - traditional forms of computer software, OK? The people who "}
{"id": "593863645", "date": "2018-03-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Robots Are Now 'Creating New Robots,' Tech Reporter Says", "question_index": 29, "text": "What was the most amazing piece of technology that you got first because of your father?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what I tell everybody is that I have kind of a dual background, right? My mother is a voracious reader - a fiction reader mostly. My father was an engineer. He was a career IBMer (ph), a program"}
{"id": "593863645", "date": "2018-03-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Robots Are Now 'Creating New Robots,' Tech Reporter Says", "question_index": 30, "text": "So that helped lead you to the role that you play now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we had an IBM PC even before it was commercially available, as the way I remember it - about 1981 with the monochrome green display. I remember building a program that asked trivia questions. Yo"}
{"id": "593863645", "date": "2018-03-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Robots Are Now 'Creating New Robots,' Tech Reporter Says", "question_index": 31, "text": "No kidding.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a big part of it. And it - a lot of it was the stories my father would tell. He worked on the original project at IBM that designed the UPC symbol, the bar codes that are on all our groceries."}
{"id": "593863645", "date": "2018-03-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Robots Are Now 'Creating New Robots,' Tech Reporter Says", "question_index": 32, "text": "Wow. Cade Metz, it's been great to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He worked to test that. And he was a great storyteller, had great stories about the development of that and all the myths that sort of surrounded. There were people who protested the UPC symbol becaus"}
{"id": "593863645", "date": "2018-03-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Robots Are Now 'Creating New Robots,' Tech Reporter Says", "question_index": 33, "text": "Cade Metz is a technology correspondent for The New York Times. After we take a short break, Milo Miles will review two new albums by the Kronos Quartet, one a collaboration with Laurie Anderson, the other with a group from Mali. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 0, "text": "Kory Stamper, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, editor of the website TV Worth Watching, sitting in for Terry Gross. Today's guest bears some responsibility for getting the expression f-bomb in the dictionary"}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 1, "text": "So how does a new word get added to the dictionary? What's the criteria?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks, Terry."}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 2, "text": "What's a good example of a word that you decided to add to the dictionary?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So there are three criteria for entry. The first is widespread use, which means a word needs to be used all over the place in all sorts of different kinds of places. So if a word is used in Vibe magaz"}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 3, "text": "Oh, really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wow, a good example of a word I decided to add. Let me think. Oh, I added bodice ripper to the dictionary."}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 4, "text": "Please define.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 5, "text": "OK, OK. I'm going to look it up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't even remember it anymore."}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 6, "text": "I've got the Merriam-Webster website open...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 7, "text": "...On my computer over here. So I'm going to look up bodice ripper, which is officially two words. And here we go. A historical or a gothic romance typically featuring scenes in which the heroine is subjected to violence.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 8, "text": "Hence the ripping of her bodice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that sounds about right."}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 9, "text": "OK. Its first known use - 1978. Wow, I thought it dated earlier than that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 10, "text": "...Because people don't talk about bodices anymore, but I guess in those novels, they do because...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. it's..."}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 11, "text": "They're historical.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, because they're historical."}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 12, "text": "So what made you decide to add bodice ripper? Were you reading romance novels for your own enjoyment, or were you reading them to see what language are they using?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So even if they're set in the 18th century, they're 19th century. Bodices are a big thing."}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 13, "text": "Can I nitpick", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. You know, it was pretty boring and prosaic. I was doing defining on the addenda for our unabridged dictionary. And I happened to get the batch in B, the letter B, that had all the citations for bo"}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 14, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. You know, it was pretty boring and prosaic. I was doing defining on the addenda for our unabridged dictionary. And I happened to get the batch in B, the letter B, that had all the citations for bo"}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 15, "text": "So a historical or Gothic romance typically featuring scenes in which the heroine is subjected to violence. Now, if the heroine was, like, whipped or tortured, that would be violence, but it wouldn't be a bodice ripper. I think a bodice ripper implies that the heroine is taken by force by a handsome leading man who she secretly desires and submits and is kind of enjoying it. I mean, that's kind of, like, the bodice ripper thing, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, you can nitpick."}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 16, "text": "Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think so, though, you know, what's interesting if you look at a lot of the citational evidence for it, it's just not clear if some of those - I mean, bodice rippers do usually feature a heroine who "}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is what makes your job hard...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then what do you consider to be violence? Is that kind of - is this tempestuous taking a violent thing? Is it - even if it's consensual or non - I mean, yeah, even if it's consensual..."}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 18, "text": "...Among other things.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 19, "text": "Now, are you also the lexicographer responsible for getting the word f-bomb in the dictionary?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 20, "text": "Why did you propose it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that it was one that I had proposed, and I don't know that I ended up drafting the final entry for that."}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 21, "text": "So I'm going to read the citation...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "whatever so..."}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 22, "text": "...Without saying what the word is that it's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 23, "text": "...Being used in substitution for. So the definition reads that the f-bomb is (reading) the F-word used metaphorically as a euphemism, except they spell out what the F-word is in the dictionary.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 24, "text": "So - and then there's an example of its usage. And that example is accidentally dropped an f-bomb on television. And it names the person who wrote that sentence or who said that sentence. Why is it important in a lot of entries to have an example that's not an example that the lexicographer came up with but an example of how it's been used in speech or in a text?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, right."}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 25, "text": "So the first known use of the f-bomb, according to the Merriam-Webster, was in 1988. How do you find out something like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's important because, first, you need to have some evidence, maybe, that this word is in use because you do get people who will come to the dictionary and look up a word and say, I've never "}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 26, "text": "Oh, yeah", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's kind of a wild, lexical goose chase. So one of the things that we do is we will find first dates of written use first by going through our own in-house citation database. And sometimes, we have t"}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's kind of a wild, lexical goose chase. So one of the things that we do is we will find first dates of written use first by going through our own in-house citation database. And sometimes, we have t"}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 28, "text": "That's fascinating.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was doing some research on staycation, which is a word that many people think is frivolous and dumb. And sort of when we entered it into the dictionary, we got a lot of think pieces about, this is i"}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 29, "text": "I use the word staycation a lot when I decide to take a week and just, like, stay home and just, like, not", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So it was really fun to find. And that happens all the time when you're finding the dates of first written use. You might think, oh, well, we've pegged it pretty much to the second half of the 2"}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 30, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So it was really fun to find. And that happens all the time when you're finding the dates of first written use. You might think, oh, well, we've pegged it pretty much to the second half of the 2"}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 31, "text": "...Not be on deadline and just, you know, be around.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "..."}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 32, "text": "Maybe even see a friend.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 33, "text": "It's a great word. I love that word. If you're just joining us, my guest is Kory Stamper, an editor at Merriam-Webster and author of the new book \"Word By Word: The Secret Life Of Dictionaries.\" We're going to take a short break here and then be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a handy word."}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 34, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is lexicographer Kory Stamper, author of the new book \"Word By Word: The Secret Life Of Dictionaries.\" She's affiliated with the Merriam-Webster Dictionary. She's an editor. So I'm going to ask you about the word that Merriam-Webster says now ranks as almost certainly the most offensive and inflammatory racial slur in English, a term expressive of hatred and bigotry. And that's the N word. I won't say the word. And you have a good blog post about this word. Did you have to work on this word ever?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a handy word."}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 35, "text": "So let me read the official Merriam-Webster definition, and then we'll talk about it. (Reading) One, offensive, see usage paragraph below. Used as an insulting and contemptuous term for a black person. Two, offensive used as an insulting and contemptuous term for a member of any dark-skinned race. Three, now often offensive, a member of a class or a group of people who are systematically subjected to discrimination and unfair treatment. And the example is, it's time for somebody to lead all of America's N-words, all the people who feel left out of the political process. And that sentence is attributed to Ron Dellums. OK. So one of the things that makes that word so complicated is that - in part because of rap, where the word is used frequently and often has become used as a word of almost affection that one black person can use to describe another. It's a word that's really so dependent on who's using it and what their intent is. So as a lexicographer, is that something you can deal with in the definitions or not? Like, how do you deal with that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had to look at the word for revision at one point a while ago. It was for a different dictionary for people who were learning English as a foreign language. And I was looking at it sort of as a seco"}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 36, "text": "You got a letter from - or an email from a dictionary reader who was upset to find that word in the dictionary and wrote to you, I understand why you put it there, but I'm thinking of my 10-year-old daughter. The N-word shouldn't exist for her. She should not have to confront that in a dictionary, which is supposed to tell her what words really mean. So what's your response to that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Within definitions, it's almost impossible to deal with that, again, because we deal with print, and we're presenting information in writing. And that means that it's really difficult to give an exhau"}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 37, "text": "You've written, the language belongs to everyone - the oppressed and the oppressor. Would you elaborate on that as a lexicographer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, when I got that email, it literally knocked the breath out of me because I also have children. And I also think, you know, there are lots of words in the world that I don't ever want leveled at my"}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 38, "text": "Well, one of your words... (LAUGHTER)", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's interview with Kory Stamper. She's a lexicographer and editor at Merriam-Webster. And her book called \"Word By Wor"}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 39, "text": "...Was one of your amplifications of a word...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's interview with Kory Stamper. She's a lexicographer and editor at Merriam-Webster. And her book called \"Word By Wor"}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 40, "text": "...Was marriage. I think it was you who added an explanation that marriage can apply to two people of the same sex.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 41, "text": "And did people say that you were, like, promoting gay marriage in the dictionary? You should not promote gay marriage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I didn't add it to the entry. I basically did our press release stating after people found the entry. When people discovered that that subsense for marriage had been entered in the dictionary, I"}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 42, "text": "(Laughter).", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, absolutely. People were furious. The people who wrote in, for the most part, were absolutely outraged. I had people tell me I was indoctrinating their children. I had people tell me that Noa"}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 43, "text": "Somebody who responded to your expanded usage of marriage was Stephen Colbert. And I know you loved that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But - so yeah. It - marriage was a word that touched off a huge, huge backlash of user comments and emails."}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 44, "text": "Why don't we hear what he said? (SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, \"THE COLBERT REPORT\")", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was great."}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 45, "text": "So that was Stephen Colbert from \"The Colbert Report\" era. (LAUGHTER)", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I'm not going to let these same-sexicographers (ph) ruin other straight words the way they did drag, bear and Manwich."}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 46, "text": "You didn't know that was coming, did you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I'm not going to let these same-sexicographers (ph) ruin other straight words the way they did drag, bear and Manwich."}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 47, "text": "Were you just watching it at home?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did not."}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 48, "text": "Very affirming.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was - well, I actually had a coworker send the link to me from Comedy Central in the midst of this big email campaign that I was responding to. And I - it was - he said nothing. He just sent - the s"}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 49, "text": "So you say no one really speaks standard English. Can you explain that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it was very affirming. Thank you, Stephen Colbert."}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 50, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Kory Stamper. She's a lexicographer and editor at Merriam-Webster and author of the new book \"Word By Word\". Let's take a short break. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR. (SOUNDBITE OF LARRY BARILLEAU AND THE LATON JAZZ COLLECTIVE'S \"CARMEN'S MAMBO\")", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So standard English - what we call standard English is one of many dialects of English. So dialects are kind of like subsets of a language or little sub-languages of a broader language. And standard E"}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 51, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is Kory Stamper, author of the new book \"Word By Word: The Secret Life Of Dictionaries.\" She knows a lot about dictionaries because she's an editor at Merriam-Webster. You write, (reading) many of the things presented to us as rules are really just of-the-moment preferences of people who have had the opportunity to get their opinions published. And those opinions end up being reinforced and repeated down the ages as truth. And you say on National Grammar Day, you ritually burn a copy of the style guide \"Strunk & White.\" (LAUGHTER)", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So standard English - what we call standard English is one of many dialects of English. So dialects are kind of like subsets of a language or little sub-languages of a broader language. And standard E"}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 52, "text": "So what do you object to about \"Strunk & White,\" which is really a bible to a lot of people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So standard English - what we call standard English is one of many dialects of English. So dialects are kind of like subsets of a language or little sub-languages of a broader language. And standard E"}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 53, "text": "It's a style and usage guide.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is. And, you know, it started out - Strunk..."}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 54, "text": "People also turn, I think, to usage and style guides for how to know when to say which and when to say that or who and whom. Do you care?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is a style and usage guide. And it started out as just kind of an informal list that William Strunk kept to help tighten up prose. And then E.B. White in the '50s amended it. My biggest issues with"}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 55, "text": "In speech, you don't, but on the page, you do.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Laughter) I - you know, in speech, no, I really don't care."}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 56, "text": "You write that some rules are really based on Latin and not English.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It depends on the context of the page. This was very interesting for me. When I wrote the book, I had an editing pass done. And I use a lot of conjunctions like as and since instead of because. So I w"}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 57, "text": "I didn't know that. I mean, what - can you give us an example?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 58, "text": "That's something I won't put up with.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the best-known one is the no terminal preposition rules. So that's the don't end sentences with a preposition. And that was based on Latin grammar because in Latin, you can't end a sentence with a "}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 59, "text": "As an example.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Laughter) Right, exactly."}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 60, "text": "Yes. (LAUGHTER)", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As an example."}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 61, "text": "So how did you learn that - that some of the rules that we're supposed to follow aren't really rules that should apply to English, that come from Latin, which is a really different language?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As an example."}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 62, "text": "So you have two children?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A lot of that was done just in researching for various articles or word history articles for our website. And then I would - because, again, I am this kind of nerd - I would go back and look at the pr"}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 63, "text": "When they were learning language, and then when they got a little older and started to use more, like, vernacular language, more slang, did you try to correct them or - I know you don't like to police people's language, and you don't edit your children's social media. But, you know, what rules did you try to uphold when they were speaking to you in the house?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have two children."}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 64, "text": "That's also how people learn - how children learn, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, boy. Even though I say I don't police people's speech, I am a mom. And moms police their children's speech because that's what moms do."}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 65, "text": "So do you feel, like, as a parent and lexicographer, you're seeing how language changes generationally by listening to your own children?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, this is - yeah, this is part of how kids learn is you learn, OK, you don't say, you know, I done that. You say, I have done that. Oh, OK. I would do that. And I don't anymore. My children are o"}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 66, "text": "A-F?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely. My youngest daughter just turned 17. And I'm the carpool mom for one of her activities. And what I will do is I will wait until all the teenagers get in the car, and they get talking. "}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 67, "text": "Oh, oh, oh, right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A-F, as F-word."}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 68, "text": "Got it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep."}
{"id": "593891502", "date": "2018-03-16", "guest": "Kory Stamper", "title": "From 'F-Bomb' To 'Photobomb,' How The Dictionary Keeps Up With English", "question_index": 69, "text": "Kory Stamper, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I do. I get to watch how quickly the cycle of language changes, not just slang but even the ways that we communicate with each other. You know, lots of people sort of throw their hands up in dismay"}
{"id": "594894657", "date": "2018-03-19", "guest": "Jonathan Weisman", "title": "Attacked By Alt-Right Trolls, A Jewish Journalist Links Trump To The Rise Of Hate", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. After linking to an article about the rise of fascism in America, my guest, Jonathan Weisman, became the target of neo-Nazi trolls on Twitter barraging him with anti-Semitic insults and threats. Weisman is a former congressional correspondent for The New York Times and is now deputy Washington editor, handling Time's coverage of Congress as well as some political coverage. In his new book, he describes his encounters with white nationalists, writes about some of their leaders, looks at the connections between white nationalists and the Trump campaign and administration, and examines some of the history of anti-Semitism in America. The book is called \"(((Semitism))): Being Jewish In America In The Age Of Trump.\" Jonathan Weisman, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Tell us how the anti-Semitic attacks against you started. What did you first tweet out that got the response?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "594894657", "date": "2018-03-19", "guest": "Jonathan Weisman", "title": "Attacked By Alt-Right Trolls, A Jewish Journalist Links Trump To The Rise Of Hate", "question_index": 1, "text": "So these triple parentheses bracketing your name, signifying that you're Jewish, is that a marker so that other people who want to attack you for being Jewish can figure out, get him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was May of 2016. It was a time when Donald Trump was actually kind of marauding through the Republican primaries, but somehow, the Republican establishment still thought there was some way to"}
{"id": "594894657", "date": "2018-03-19", "guest": "Jonathan Weisman", "title": "Attacked By Alt-Right Trolls, A Jewish Journalist Links Trump To The Rise Of Hate", "question_index": 2, "text": "So it's like the Internet equivalent of wearing a Jewish star or, you know, a pink triangle during the Nazi era, in a way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, unbeknownst to me and frankly unbeknownst to virtually anyone in the world, there was a piece of software that was being offered as a Google plug-in. It was very nondescript in its name. It was "}
{"id": "594894657", "date": "2018-03-19", "guest": "Jonathan Weisman", "title": "Attacked By Alt-Right Trolls, A Jewish Journalist Links Trump To The Rise Of Hate", "question_index": 3, "text": "So give us a sense of some of the hate tweets that you got from the neo-Nazi trolls.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly, exactly. I would put it exactly that way. And in fact, a lot of the images that were sent to me were me with a yellow Jewish star sewed to whatever I happened to be wearing in that motif."}
{"id": "594894657", "date": "2018-03-19", "guest": "Jonathan Weisman", "title": "Attacked By Alt-Right Trolls, A Jewish Journalist Links Trump To The Rise Of Hate", "question_index": 4, "text": "Do you think that Donald Trump knew about this kind of tweet using his slogan, make America great, using his name in such anti-Semitic ways?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so much of it was Trump-oriented. There's one meme that they sent to a lot of Jewish journalists with the journalist's face in a gas chamber and a smiling Donald Trump in Nazi uniform flicking t"}
{"id": "594894657", "date": "2018-03-19", "guest": "Jonathan Weisman", "title": "Attacked By Alt-Right Trolls, A Jewish Journalist Links Trump To The Rise Of Hate", "question_index": 5, "text": "And she also said she - Julia Ioffe, the journalist - Melania Trump said she provoked them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one thing I'm very reluctant to do is put anything into Donald Trump's head. I don't know what's in Donald Trump's head. We do know a couple of things. We know that when Trump was confronted onc"}
{"id": "594894657", "date": "2018-03-19", "guest": "Jonathan Weisman", "title": "Attacked By Alt-Right Trolls, A Jewish Journalist Links Trump To The Rise Of Hate", "question_index": 6, "text": "Well, let's get back to you. So you're getting all these anti-Semitic tweets. How did you decide whether to or not to engage with them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. And that provocation line actually was echoed, in some ways, by Donald Trump himself. There were ample times when they could've renounced, in a fulsome manner, their followers. And they "}
{"id": "594894657", "date": "2018-03-19", "guest": "Jonathan Weisman", "title": "Attacked By Alt-Right Trolls, A Jewish Journalist Links Trump To The Rise Of Hate", "question_index": 7, "text": "So looking back in retrospect, what were the reactions you got from the anti-Semites who were trolling you? And what kind of reaction did you get from other people who were unaware of this wave of anti-Semitism on the Internet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Now, this is a very sensitive question because how to engage the alt-right is an argument that is still going on. At that time, I was so blown away by the virulence and ugliness of these attacks that "}
{"id": "594894657", "date": "2018-03-19", "guest": "Jonathan Weisman", "title": "Attacked By Alt-Right Trolls, A Jewish Journalist Links Trump To The Rise Of Hate", "question_index": 8, "text": "So did Twitter shut down any of the accounts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the anti-Semites who were trolling me really enjoyed this process. I think they actually liked to get the publicity. And I didn't really understand how organized it was at the time. It actuall"}
{"id": "594894657", "date": "2018-03-19", "guest": "Jonathan Weisman", "title": "Attacked By Alt-Right Trolls, A Jewish Journalist Links Trump To The Rise Of Hate", "question_index": 9, "text": "So once you kind of did a deep dive into anti-Semitism on Twitter and on the Internet and just in the world, in America, who were some of the people who you learned about who are leaders of the most anti-Semitic groups, the most neo-Nazi kind of groups that you hadn't been aware of before?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Now, at first, they didn't. At first, I would report these accounts, and I'd get back this note saying, hey, we looked at this, and we didn't see any violation of our terms of service - wh"}
{"id": "594894657", "date": "2018-03-19", "guest": "Jonathan Weisman", "title": "Attacked By Alt-Right Trolls, A Jewish Journalist Links Trump To The Rise Of Hate", "question_index": 10, "text": "You write that you hadn't known that virulent anti-Semitism still existed in America, but after these attacks on you, you couldn't avoid it. So what kind of wake-up call was that for you? What impact did that have on you, seeing all the anti-Semitism that does exist in America?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one of the guys I'd really focused on is Andrew Anglin. Andrew Anglin is kind of the swashbuckling editor of The Daily Stormer, which is a neo-Nazi website. What interests me about Andrew Anglin"}
{"id": "594894657", "date": "2018-03-19", "guest": "Jonathan Weisman", "title": "Attacked By Alt-Right Trolls, A Jewish Journalist Links Trump To The Rise Of Hate", "question_index": 11, "text": "OK. We should take a break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jonathan Weisman. He's a New York Times deputy Washington editor. He formerly covered Congress for The New York Times, and now he has a new book called \"(((Semitism))): Being Jewish In America In The Age Of Trump.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, just hearing you say that makes me feel so naive. But the fact of the matter is, I mean, obviously, I grew up in the South. I grew up in Atlanta. And some people don't say that's the South any"}
{"id": "594894657", "date": "2018-03-19", "guest": "Jonathan Weisman", "title": "Attacked By Alt-Right Trolls, A Jewish Journalist Links Trump To The Rise Of Hate", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Jonathan Weisman. He's a former congressional correspondent for The New York Times and is now deputy Washington editor, and his job includes editing congressional coverage. He's the author of the new book \"(((Semitism))): Being Jewish In America In The Age Of Trump,\" and it's about the anti-Semitic attacks that he got on Twitter after linking to an article called \"This Is How Fascism Comes To America.\" And the book takes off from that to talk about this new wave of Internet anti-Semitism and other hate groups on the Internet. There's also a lot about the history of anti-Semitism in the book. So you write that the far right has tried, with some success, to seize the free speech movement. What do you mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, just hearing you say that makes me feel so naive. But the fact of the matter is, I mean, obviously, I grew up in the South. I grew up in Atlanta. And some people don't say that's the South any"}
{"id": "594894657", "date": "2018-03-19", "guest": "Jonathan Weisman", "title": "Attacked By Alt-Right Trolls, A Jewish Journalist Links Trump To The Rise Of Hate", "question_index": 13, "text": "But that gets back to the fact that, like, you responded to the tweets when you were hate-tweeted (ph) by white nationalists.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think that this effort on - especially on college campuses, where somebody like Richard Spencer, one of the alt-right leaders, will go on tour to these campuses and try to provoke melees, riot"}
{"id": "594894657", "date": "2018-03-19", "guest": "Jonathan Weisman", "title": "Attacked By Alt-Right Trolls, A Jewish Journalist Links Trump To The Rise Of Hate", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, how do you interpret that answer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And I guess this is my ambivalence. You know, I talked to Jonathan Greenblatt, who's the current head of the Anti-Defamation League. And he said, look, I appreciate what you did, but I wish you"}
{"id": "594894657", "date": "2018-03-19", "guest": "Jonathan Weisman", "title": "Attacked By Alt-Right Trolls, A Jewish Journalist Links Trump To The Rise Of Hate", "question_index": 15, "text": "So your book is kind of opinionated, which is unusual in the sense that, like, you're a New York Times editor and a former congressional correspondent. And, you know, The New York Times likes to separate analysis from opinion and everything. Is it OK for you to be this opinionated in your book?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the answer is, you can sit and argue over tactics, but if you believe that an injustice is rearing its head, you have an obligation to fight it. So the idea that we will just bury our heads in"}
{"id": "594894657", "date": "2018-03-19", "guest": "Jonathan Weisman", "title": "Attacked By Alt-Right Trolls, A Jewish Journalist Links Trump To The Rise Of Hate", "question_index": 16, "text": "My guest is Jonathan Weisman, deputy editor at The New York Times - deputy Washington editor. After a break, we'll talk more about his new book \"(((Semitism))): Being Jewish In America In The Age Of Trump.\" I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one thing I really want to emphasize - and I will say this a thousand times as I promote this book - is that I believe that promote - that embracing American institutions and standing up for dem"}
{"id": "594894657", "date": "2018-03-19", "guest": "Jonathan Weisman", "title": "Attacked By Alt-Right Trolls, A Jewish Journalist Links Trump To The Rise Of Hate", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Jonathan Weisman. He's deputy Washington editor at The New York Times and a former Times congressional correspondent. His new book, \"(((Semitism))): Being Jewish In America In The Age Of Trump,\" is about how he was barraged by anti-Semitic tweets after linking to an article titled \"This Is How Fascism Comes To America.\" The book is also about the larger white nationalist movement and its connections to the Trump campaign and administration. I have a language question for you. When we're talking about this, do you like to go with the word anti-Semites, nationalists, white nationalists, neo-Nazis? What do you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one thing I really want to emphasize - and I will say this a thousand times as I promote this book - is that I believe that promote - that embracing American institutions and standing up for dem"}
{"id": "594894657", "date": "2018-03-19", "guest": "Jonathan Weisman", "title": "Attacked By Alt-Right Trolls, A Jewish Journalist Links Trump To The Rise Of Hate", "question_index": 18, "text": "...Prefer, and why do you prefer it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I like..."}
{"id": "594894657", "date": "2018-03-19", "guest": "Jonathan Weisman", "title": "Attacked By Alt-Right Trolls, A Jewish Journalist Links Trump To The Rise Of Hate", "question_index": 19, "text": "You say about Donald Trump - whether he knew it or not, Trump ran the most anti-Semitic presidential campaign in modern American history. What would you use as examples of that to back that up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I like to use the term white nationalism or white nationalist because, first of all, what we are seeing in the United States is a global movement. We've seen it in France with the rise of Le Pen. We h"}
{"id": "594894657", "date": "2018-03-19", "guest": "Jonathan Weisman", "title": "Attacked By Alt-Right Trolls, A Jewish Journalist Links Trump To The Rise Of Hate", "question_index": 20, "text": "You described Donald Trump as the perfect vehicle to carry the white nationalist movement. Why is he the perfect vehicle?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Note - Donald Trump's closing advertisement talked about global bankers or internationalists. And when he said those words, the image of Janet Yellen and Lloyd Blankfein, the chairman of Goldman Sachs"}
{"id": "594894657", "date": "2018-03-19", "guest": "Jonathan Weisman", "title": "Attacked By Alt-Right Trolls, A Jewish Journalist Links Trump To The Rise Of Hate", "question_index": 21, "text": "Donald Trump's slogan is America First and make America great again - and now keep America great again. So compare how Donald Trump has used the word America First - has used that expression to how it is used in the years leading up to World War II.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, whether he meant to or not, his notion of nationalism is infused with notions of race. And the first thing he said was that Mexicans were rapists or that the Mexican government wasn't sending us"}
{"id": "594894657", "date": "2018-03-19", "guest": "Jonathan Weisman", "title": "Attacked By Alt-Right Trolls, A Jewish Journalist Links Trump To The Rise Of Hate", "question_index": 22, "text": "One, he's been asked about anti-Semitism. He's pointed out that he has two Jewish grandchildren. He's claimed he's the least anti-Semitic person you've ever seen in your life. How do you respond to that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Now, it's interesting. The origin, in some ways, of that - maybe I'm giving The New York Times too much credit. But during the campaign, Trump sat down for an interview with a couple of our reporters."}
{"id": "594894657", "date": "2018-03-19", "guest": "Jonathan Weisman", "title": "Attacked By Alt-Right Trolls, A Jewish Journalist Links Trump To The Rise Of Hate", "question_index": 23, "text": "You write that you think many Jewish people support the Trump administration in spite of its ties to white nationalism because the administration is seen as pro-Israel. Would you elaborate on that thought?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I respond by saying, first of all, I'm not saying that Donald Trump is an anti-Semite. I don't know what's in Donald Trump's mind. I know that he has a lot of Jewish grandchildren. I know that his bel"}
{"id": "594894657", "date": "2018-03-19", "guest": "Jonathan Weisman", "title": "Attacked By Alt-Right Trolls, A Jewish Journalist Links Trump To The Rise Of Hate", "question_index": 24, "text": "All right, let's take a short break here. And then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jonathan Weisman. He's the author of the new book \"(((Semitism))): Being Jewish In America In The Age Of Trump.\" He's also a deputy Washington editor at The New York Times where he formerly covered Congress. We'll be back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I actually devoted an entire chapter to what I call the Israel obsession. And it will be very, very unpopular among American Jews. My view is that Jews in the United States have become singularly obse"}
{"id": "594894657", "date": "2018-03-19", "guest": "Jonathan Weisman", "title": "Attacked By Alt-Right Trolls, A Jewish Journalist Links Trump To The Rise Of Hate", "question_index": 25, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is Jonathan Weisman. He is a deputy Washington editor at The New York Times. He edits congressional coverage and some political coverage. He's a former congressional correspondent at The Times. His new book is called \"(((Semitism))): Being Jewish In America In The Age Of Trump.\" And he writes about anti-Semitism now through the lens of having been trolled by many, many anti-Semites after he tweeted a link to an article that was headlined \"This Is How Fascism Comes To America.\" So among the things I've learned from your book is some of the current slang used by white nationalists. You use the word special snowflake. First of all, describe what snowflake means. And did that word originate with the white nationalists?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I actually devoted an entire chapter to what I call the Israel obsession. And it will be very, very unpopular among American Jews. My view is that Jews in the United States have become singularly obse"}
{"id": "594894657", "date": "2018-03-19", "guest": "Jonathan Weisman", "title": "Attacked By Alt-Right Trolls, A Jewish Journalist Links Trump To The Rise Of Hate", "question_index": 26, "text": "Right - so somebody who just, like, can't take it because they're just, like, so vulnerable and need to be so protected by the world. They can't - they're so thin-skinned, they just can't handle it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm not sure if it originated with the white nationalists, but it was captured by it because the white nationalists use it as a way to defend their right to say whatever they want, no matter how bigot"}
{"id": "594894657", "date": "2018-03-19", "guest": "Jonathan Weisman", "title": "Attacked By Alt-Right Trolls, A Jewish Journalist Links Trump To The Rise Of Hate", "question_index": 27, "text": "So you write about an Internet meme - the numbers 1-4-8-8. What does that mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "594894657", "date": "2018-03-19", "guest": "Jonathan Weisman", "title": "Attacked By Alt-Right Trolls, A Jewish Journalist Links Trump To The Rise Of Hate", "question_index": 28, "text": "Where do you see it? Like, on tweets, on...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". The 14 in 1488 are the 14 words of an obscure neo-Nazi credo - we must secure the existence of our people and the future of - for white children. There you go - 14. The 88 is a reference to a single"}
{"id": "594894657", "date": "2018-03-19", "guest": "Jonathan Weisman", "title": "Attacked By Alt-Right Trolls, A Jewish Journalist Links Trump To The Rise Of Hate", "question_index": 29, "text": "...Internet, on websites?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, on Twitter..."}
{"id": "594894657", "date": "2018-03-19", "guest": "Jonathan Weisman", "title": "Attacked By Alt-Right Trolls, A Jewish Journalist Links Trump To The Rise Of Hate", "question_index": 30, "text": "So what do you think the nature of the threat is from the white nationalist movement?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "On Twitter handles, on names. Dylann Roof, the killer who gunned down all the black parishioners in Charleston, used 1488 in his own sign-offs online. It's something that pops up a lot, and it's just "}
{"id": "594894657", "date": "2018-03-19", "guest": "Jonathan Weisman", "title": "Attacked By Alt-Right Trolls, A Jewish Journalist Links Trump To The Rise Of Hate", "question_index": 31, "text": "I'm wondering how your exposure to anti-Semitism and now your study and analysis of it has affected your own life as a Jewish person. You grew up very secular. Your parents were from New York, but they moved to Atlanta. You grew up in Atlanta. You say your mother joined the synagogue not out of great religious conviction but because it was a synagogue connected to the civil rights movement, and she wanted to be a part of that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- stepped up to a black college student outside College Park, Md. And when this college student wouldn't move aside, he stabbed him to death. Then there was an incident in Portland, Ore., on the light"}
{"id": "594894657", "date": "2018-03-19", "guest": "Jonathan Weisman", "title": "Attacked By Alt-Right Trolls, A Jewish Journalist Links Trump To The Rise Of Hate", "question_index": 32, "text": "So have you become more Jewish, so to speak? Have you become more observant? Have you become more self-identified, you know, in your mind, as Jewish culturally or religiously?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That is correct."}
{"id": "594894657", "date": "2018-03-19", "guest": "Jonathan Weisman", "title": "Attacked By Alt-Right Trolls, A Jewish Journalist Links Trump To The Rise Of Hate", "question_index": 33, "text": "So the last time we spoke, you were covering Congress, and that was back in 2013. And now you're a deputy Washington editor at The New York Times, and you edit coverage of Congress. So I want to quote something that you've said. In the era of Trump, congressional reporters have a responsibility, one that in the 20 years I've been in Washington I have never felt so keenly. They must cover the legislative branch through the prism of the Constitution - to see Congress not as a bumbling backwater of policymaking but as a co-equal branch of government, designed as a check on the power of the executive. Would you elaborate on that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And I have tried to imbue more of a sense of Judaism on my two daughters. But it's one of these things that a lot of Jews took notice of during the Nazi era - that, you know, you can hide from your "}
{"id": "594894657", "date": "2018-03-19", "guest": "Jonathan Weisman", "title": "Attacked By Alt-Right Trolls, A Jewish Journalist Links Trump To The Rise Of Hate", "question_index": 34, "text": "Give me an example of Congress not asserting itself.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One of the great failings of this Congress is to assert itself in the face of an executive branch that takes it for granted."}
{"id": "594894657", "date": "2018-03-19", "guest": "Jonathan Weisman", "title": "Attacked By Alt-Right Trolls, A Jewish Journalist Links Trump To The Rise Of Hate", "question_index": 35, "text": "So the tweet that you sent out that started the whole anti-Semite hate tweet storm against you was your tweet linking to an article by Robert Kagan called \"This Is How Fascism Comes To America.\" Are you concerned that fascism is coming to America?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, look. I mean, if the Republicans were in power, and President Obama was funneling money into his own private organization through a hotel that he owned, I think that there would be hearings on t"}
{"id": "594894657", "date": "2018-03-19", "guest": "Jonathan Weisman", "title": "Attacked By Alt-Right Trolls, A Jewish Journalist Links Trump To The Rise Of Hate", "question_index": 36, "text": "Jonathan Weisman, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would say that fascism is too hard a word. But I think that there is an authoritarian impulse on the part of Donald Trump that's very difficult to ignore. I mean, the fact is that Xi Jinping, the pr"}
{"id": "594894657", "date": "2018-03-19", "guest": "Jonathan Weisman", "title": "Attacked By Alt-Right Trolls, A Jewish Journalist Links Trump To The Rise Of Hate", "question_index": 37, "text": "Jonathan Weisman is the author of the new book \"(((Semitism))): Being Jewish In America In The Age Of Trump.\" He's deputy Washington editor at The New York Times. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you very much, Terry."}
{"id": "596035999", "date": "2018-03-22", "guest": "Donald Trump Jr", "title": "How The Trump Organization Mixes Business And Politics In India", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. An ongoing concern about the Trump presidency is the potential conflicts of interest he faces as his children continue to represent the Trump Organization in business deals around the world. And the brand they're selling is the name of the man who is now in the White House. Here's an example. Last month, Don Jr. visited India, where The Trump Organization has several active real estate projects. Before he arrived, Indian newspapers ran ads that said anyone who paid a deposit of about $39,000 on an apartment in the newest Trump Tower India could join Mr. Donald Trump Jr. for a conversation and dinner. Here's what Don Jr. had to say on Indian TV about making that offer.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "596035999", "date": "2018-03-22", "guest": "Donald Trump Jr", "title": "How The Trump Organization Mixes Business And Politics In India", "question_index": 1, "text": "The conflicts of interest The Trump Organization presents for the president and the fraud and corruption investigations into its business partners are the subject of an article in The New Republic titled \"Political Corruption And The Art Of The Deal.\" The author, Anjali Kamat, is my guest. With the help of The Investigative Fund, she spent a year looking into The Trump Organization's business deals in India. And she's the reporter on a two-part series on Trump and India for the podcast Trump, Inc. Part one is now available. Trump, Inc. is a coproduction of ProPublica and public radio station WNYC and is cohosted by my other guest, Andrea Bernstein, who is the senior editor for politics and policy at WNYC. Andrea Bernstein, Anjali Kamat, welcome to FRESH AIR. Andrea, let me start with you. What are you trying to do with the podcast Trump, Inc.?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If I didn't, I'd be the first person in the history of real estate to not go meet with their buyers, right? So - but that's the problem. Because my father happens to be in politics, there's always a c"}
{"id": "596035999", "date": "2018-03-22", "guest": "Donald Trump Jr", "title": "How The Trump Organization Mixes Business And Politics In India", "question_index": 2, "text": "How many projects does The Trump organization have under way in India now as we speak?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So we started this podcast about a year into Trump's presidency. And we had been working with ProPublica ad hoc on a number of stories. The biggest one we did was involving Trump SoHo and how Don Jr. "}
{"id": "596035999", "date": "2018-03-22", "guest": "Donald Trump Jr", "title": "How The Trump Organization Mixes Business And Politics In India", "question_index": 3, "text": "So in some of these projects, Don Jr. is the kind of representative, the front man for The Trump Organization. And his most recent trip to India on behalf of one of the Trump Towers there was just last month, February. What was that visit about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the largest number of overseas licensing deals The Trump Organization has in any country around the world are in India. And there's five active projects right now. And this is one of the reasons wh"}
{"id": "596035999", "date": "2018-03-22", "guest": "Donald Trump Jr", "title": "How The Trump Organization Mixes Business And Politics In India", "question_index": 4, "text": "So there were actual like offers made with Don Jr. being the kind of gift that you get or the premium that you get if you buy or rent. Would you explain what those offers were?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Don Jr. called this part of the global tour of Trump India in an interview while he was in India. And he visited four cities in four days. So there are five active Trump projects in India spread ac"}
{"id": "596035999", "date": "2018-03-22", "guest": "Donald Trump Jr", "title": "How The Trump Organization Mixes Business And Politics In India", "question_index": 5, "text": "What questions does that race for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. The latest tower to be launched, the latest Trump Tower project to be launched in India was in Gurgaon, the suburb of the capital, New Delhi. And it's being called Trump Towers Delhi NCR. And whe"}
{"id": "596035999", "date": "2018-03-22", "guest": "Donald Trump Jr", "title": "How The Trump Organization Mixes Business And Politics In India", "question_index": 6, "text": "As we heard earlier in an excerpt of your podcast in a clip that you used of Don Jr. during his February trip to India, he said because my father's in politics, there's always a catch. And, well, his father is actually not just in politics, he's president of the United States. When Don Jr. was in India, in February, he was initially supposed to give a foreign policy address as well, but that was called off. Why was it called off?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, the funny thing is Don Jr. keeps saying there's nothing surprising about this or nothing odd about this. And this is something that all real estate developers do. The problem is his father i"}
{"id": "596035999", "date": "2018-03-22", "guest": "Donald Trump Jr", "title": "How The Trump Organization Mixes Business And Politics In India", "question_index": 7, "text": "So we've talked a little bit about Don Jr.'s role in The Trump Organization's dealings in India. What about Ivanka Trump?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was supposed to give a foreign policy address at this global business summit that Prime Minister Narendra Modi was also speaking at. And the foreign policy address that was supposed to be - the spe"}
{"id": "596035999", "date": "2018-03-22", "guest": "Donald Trump Jr", "title": "How The Trump Organization Mixes Business And Politics In India", "question_index": 8, "text": "You're talking about the press coverage in India?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Ivanka Trump's role has been immensely interesting in India. And to understand her role in India, it's important to understand the role that she had in The Trump Organization before she joined the "}
{"id": "596035999", "date": "2018-03-22", "guest": "Donald Trump Jr", "title": "How The Trump Organization Mixes Business And Politics In India", "question_index": 9, "text": "Anjali, from your article, it sounds like corruption is kind of baked into the deal if you want to move forward with the required licenses and inspections on building projects in India. Would you explain why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A retired planning official in Gurgaon, the suburb of New Delhi where the Trump Organization has two major developments coming up, told me that right after Ivanka's trip, the permits, final permits on"}
{"id": "596035999", "date": "2018-03-22", "guest": "Donald Trump Jr", "title": "How The Trump Organization Mixes Business And Politics In India", "question_index": 10, "text": "Do you have any evidence about whether they did or didn't do due diligence?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Corruption is so entrenched in Indian real estate that it's almost impossible - from what I've learned from talking to builders, real estate experts, buyers, people who've been following and studying "}
{"id": "596035999", "date": "2018-03-22", "guest": "Donald Trump Jr", "title": "How The Trump Organization Mixes Business And Politics In India", "question_index": 11, "text": "Why is that a conflict of interest?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "While the Trump organization seems to have had legal counsel and legal firms in India helping them on their deals, one of the things I found out that's really interesting is that the middlemen and the"}
{"id": "596035999", "date": "2018-03-22", "guest": "Donald Trump Jr", "title": "How The Trump Organization Mixes Business And Politics In India", "question_index": 12, "text": "They'll make more money cementing the deal than calling it off because the partner is corrupt.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Trump Organization's deals in India are all brand licensing deals. So they say they're not actually building anything themselves, they are selling their name to Indian developers to put on their b"}
{"id": "596035999", "date": "2018-03-22", "guest": "Donald Trump Jr", "title": "How The Trump Organization Mixes Business And Politics In India", "question_index": 13, "text": "OK. So does it also give the Trump Organization distance and deniability? OK, that partner was corrupt. We didn't know. We don't handle the due diligence.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's the question here."}
{"id": "596035999", "date": "2018-03-22", "guest": "Donald Trump Jr", "title": "How The Trump Organization Mixes Business And Politics In India", "question_index": 14, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guests are Andrea Bernstein, co-host of the podcast Trump, Inc. and senior editor for politics and policy at public radio station WNYC in New York, and Anjali Kamat, a reporter with the Investigative Fund, whose new article, \"Political Corruption And The Art Of The Deal,\" about Trump projects in India is in the current issue of The New Republic. We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I contacted the Trump Organization several times for comment on this piece, and they never responded. But they have said previously to other reporters who've reported on similar licensing deals in oth"}
{"id": "596035999", "date": "2018-03-22", "guest": "Donald Trump Jr", "title": "How The Trump Organization Mixes Business And Politics In India", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're talking about the Trump Organization's current and former business deals in India and the possible conflicts of interest they pose and the regulations and laws their partners in India may have violated. My guests are Andrea Bernstein, co-host of the podcast Trump, Inc. and senior editor for politics and policy at public radio station WNYC in New York, and Anjali Kamat, a reporter with the Investigative Fund whose new article, \"Political Corruption And The Art Of The Deal,\" about Trump projects in India is in the current issue of The New Republic. So a potential for conflict of interest in the Trump Organization business deals in India is some of the people who he's dealt with or are dealing with now are or have been very connected politically. And there's one person in particular who's not only connected politically, he's actually in politics. Can you tell us about that person?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I contacted the Trump Organization several times for comment on this piece, and they never responded. But they have said previously to other reporters who've reported on similar licensing deals in oth"}
{"id": "596035999", "date": "2018-03-22", "guest": "Donald Trump Jr", "title": "How The Trump Organization Mixes Business And Politics In India", "question_index": 16, "text": "And is Lodha currently in parliament?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Trump Organization's current partner in Mumbai is the Lodha Group, which was founded by a man named Mangal Prabhat Lodha. And he is a five-term state lawmaker with a party called the Bharatiya Jan"}
{"id": "596035999", "date": "2018-03-22", "guest": "Donald Trump Jr", "title": "How The Trump Organization Mixes Business And Politics In India", "question_index": 17, "text": "What's Lodha's business relationship with the Trump Organization?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Lodha is not in the national parliament. He is in the state assembly. He's a lawmaker from Mumbai in the Maharashtra State Assembly, and Maharastra is the second largest state in the country. He's als"}
{"id": "596035999", "date": "2018-03-22", "guest": "Donald Trump Jr", "title": "How The Trump Organization Mixes Business And Politics In India", "question_index": 18, "text": "My guests are Anjali Kamat, whose new article, \"Political Corruption And The Art Of The Deal,\" is in the current edition of The New Republic, and Andrea Bernstein, co-host of the podcast Trump, Inc. After a break, we'll talk more about President Trump and political and business conflicts of interest. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Lodha Group is the current licensing partner with the Trump Organization for the tower they are building in Mumbai, and that company is run by Mangal Prabhat Lodha. So Lodha's an interesting chara"}
{"id": "596035999", "date": "2018-03-22", "guest": "Donald Trump Jr", "title": "How The Trump Organization Mixes Business And Politics In India", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to our interview about the possible conflicts of interest faced by President Trump as his children managed the Trump organization. We're focusing on India, where the Trump Organization has entered into more business deals than in any other foreign country. My guests are Anjali Kamat, who, with the help of the Investigative Fund, spent a year investigating the Trump Organization's deals in India and reports on what she found in an article in The New Republic, titled, \"Political Corruption And The Art Of The Deal.\" She's also the reporter on a two-part series for the podcast Trump, Inc., which is co-hosted by my other guest, Andrea Bernstein. Trump, Inc. is a co-production of WNYC and ProPublica. So I want to play a clip from your podcast, Andrea. And this is in 2016, just a few weeks before the election. It's in Edison, N.J., an event organized by the Republican Hindu Coalition. Who will we hear introducing Trump?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Lodha Group is the current licensing partner with the Trump Organization for the tower they are building in Mumbai, and that company is run by Mangal Prabhat Lodha. So Lodha's an interesting chara"}
{"id": "596035999", "date": "2018-03-22", "guest": "Donald Trump Jr", "title": "How The Trump Organization Mixes Business And Politics In India", "question_index": 20, "text": "So let's hear that clip.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So you're going to hear the voice of an Indian-American businessman based in Chicago whose name is Shalabh Kumar. He was one of the largest donors to him and his family, donated over a million dollars"}
{"id": "596035999", "date": "2018-03-22", "guest": "Donald Trump Jr", "title": "How The Trump Organization Mixes Business And Politics In India", "question_index": 21, "text": "OK, and that's an excerpt of the podcast Trump, Inc, which is co-hosted by my guest Andrea Bernstein. And they're devoting two episodes to The Trump Organization's partnerships in India. And also with us is Anjali Kamat, a reporter with The Investigative Fund whose new article is about those deals - her article in the New Republic. What does it say to you that in this speech that Donald Trump gives, just a few weeks before the election, he points out that if he is elected, India will have a true friend in the White House - and by the way, I'm involved in two massive developments in India. He's making that connection in that speech. What is that - what questions does that raise for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I look forward to working with Prime Minister Modi, who has been very energetic in reforming India's bureaucracy - great man."}
{"id": "596035999", "date": "2018-03-22", "guest": "Donald Trump Jr", "title": "How The Trump Organization Mixes Business And Politics In India", "question_index": 22, "text": "So President Trump said in that speech if he was elected president, the Indians and Hindus would have a true friend in the White House. His alliance would be with Prime Minister Modi. What does Modi stand for in India?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This goes to the core of what's problematic about this relationship. The lines are so blurred between Trump as president and Trump as the head of The Trump Organization, which he was at that point whe"}
{"id": "596035999", "date": "2018-03-22", "guest": "Donald Trump Jr", "title": "How The Trump Organization Mixes Business And Politics In India", "question_index": 23, "text": "So the president said, if I'm elected, the Indians and Hindus will have a true friend in the White House. What are the questions that are raised in your mind about that statement. And I ask that because India and Pakistan have had a very complicated relationship - a lot of distrust between the two countries, a lot of threats between the two countries. So do you perceive that as the president taking sides - siding with India against Pakistan?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Modi came to power on an anti-corruption platform. He is a well-known long-standing Hindu nationalist leader. And he's a member of various Hindu nationalist movements that feed into his political part"}
{"id": "596035999", "date": "2018-03-22", "guest": "Donald Trump Jr", "title": "How The Trump Organization Mixes Business And Politics In India", "question_index": 24, "text": "Is the prime minister a businessman himself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, on January 1 of this year, President Trump tweeted a tweet very critical of Pakistan - accusing Pakistan of nothing but lies and deceit. And then the Trump administration proceeded to cut so"}
{"id": "596035999", "date": "2018-03-22", "guest": "Donald Trump Jr", "title": "How The Trump Organization Mixes Business And Politics In India", "question_index": 25, "text": "So he and President Trump have never had any kind of direct business relationship?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, he is not."}
{"id": "596035999", "date": "2018-03-22", "guest": "Donald Trump Jr", "title": "How The Trump Organization Mixes Business And Politics In India", "question_index": 26, "text": "But people in the party have?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "596035999", "date": "2018-03-22", "guest": "Donald Trump Jr", "title": "How The Trump Organization Mixes Business And Politics In India", "question_index": 27, "text": "And this company, IREO, which has partnered with the Trump Organization, was just accused of defrauding its investors for at least $147 million.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "People in the party have. So there's - the most important connection here is Mangal Prabhat Lodha, who is a direct business partner of the Trump Organization, building the tower in Mumbai, who is a si"}
{"id": "596035999", "date": "2018-03-22", "guest": "Donald Trump Jr", "title": "How The Trump Organization Mixes Business And Politics In India", "question_index": 28, "text": "So what kind of - like, can you answer this? What kind of money is flowing now from Trump projects in India - projects completed, projects still in progress. What kind of money is flowing now into the Trump Organization?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that's right. The thing to remember about IREO is that they're a private equity fund invested in Indian real estate. And so their major investors - two of their major investors from the U.S. and "}
{"id": "596035999", "date": "2018-03-22", "guest": "Donald Trump Jr", "title": "How The Trump Organization Mixes Business And Politics In India", "question_index": 29, "text": "So the money goes into the Trump Organization. Does President Trump have access to that money?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the Trump Organization hasn't made its licensing deals public, and the developers wouldn't give us that information either. What we do know from Trump's ethics filings that were required of him "}
{"id": "596035999", "date": "2018-03-22", "guest": "Donald Trump Jr", "title": "How The Trump Organization Mixes Business And Politics In India", "question_index": 30, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guests are Andrea Bernstein, co-host of the podcast Trump, Inc. and a senior editor for politics and policy at public radio station WNYC in New York, and Anjali Kamat, a reporter with The Investigative Fund who has a new article in The New Republic about \"Political Corruption And The Art Of The Deal.\" It's about Trump projects in India. We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, President Trump has access to that money. And as our partners at ProPublica have reported, he can access it at any time. He can, anytime he wants, withdraw money from the trust that he's set up, "}
{"id": "596035999", "date": "2018-03-22", "guest": "Donald Trump Jr", "title": "How The Trump Organization Mixes Business And Politics In India", "question_index": 31, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're talking about The Trump Organization's business deals in India and the possible conflicts of interest they pose and the regulations and laws their partners may have violated. My guests are Andrea Bernstein, co-host of the podcast Trump, Inc. and senior editor for politics and policy at public radio station WNYC in New York, and Anjali Kamat, a reporter with The Investigative Fund whose new article \"Political Corruption And The Art Of The Deal\" about Trump projects in India is in the current issue of the New Republic. There's a 1977 law called the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. Would you describe what that law is and the questions that are being raised about whether the Trump Organization or President Trump is violating those laws - that law?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, President Trump has access to that money. And as our partners at ProPublica have reported, he can access it at any time. He can, anytime he wants, withdraw money from the trust that he's set up, "}
{"id": "596035999", "date": "2018-03-22", "guest": "Donald Trump Jr", "title": "How The Trump Organization Mixes Business And Politics In India", "question_index": 32, "text": "So this is 1977 law also prohibits U.S. companies or their business partners from bribing or unduly influencing foreign officials to advance a business deal. Are there ways that that might apply in Trump Organization business dealings in India?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act was put in place after a number of international business scandals. The idea is to prevent American businesses from stooping to the lowest levels in the countries "}
{"id": "596035999", "date": "2018-03-22", "guest": "Donald Trump Jr", "title": "How The Trump Organization Mixes Business And Politics In India", "question_index": 33, "text": "So who would have standing to press charges on the grounds that The Trump Organization violated the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Now, this is the question that a lot of legal experts are actually debating right now because all of these deals are structured, as far as we know and as far as we've been told, as licensing deals. So"}
{"id": "596035999", "date": "2018-03-22", "guest": "Donald Trump Jr", "title": "How The Trump Organization Mixes Business And Politics In India", "question_index": 34, "text": "Whoa. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it's actually both the Department of Justice and the Securities and Exchange Commission and the leaders of both the DOJ and the SEC are, of course, appointed by Donald Trump."}
{"id": "596035999", "date": "2018-03-22", "guest": "Donald Trump Jr", "title": "How The Trump Organization Mixes Business And Politics In India", "question_index": 35, "text": "Hasn't President Trump, like, criticized the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "596035999", "date": "2018-03-22", "guest": "Donald Trump Jr", "title": "How The Trump Organization Mixes Business And Politics In India", "question_index": 36, "text": "Anjali, what are some of the questions you think still remain about The Trump Organization's business dealings in India and President Trump's current connection to The Trump Organization, questions that you wanted to investigate in your piece but you weren't able to get far enough for whatever reason?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Before he was president, he went on CNBC to talk about a case involving Walmart. And he spoke about the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act. And he said specifically it was a horrible law and the world"}
{"id": "596035999", "date": "2018-03-22", "guest": "Donald Trump Jr", "title": "How The Trump Organization Mixes Business And Politics In India", "question_index": 37, "text": "Well, thank you both for your reporting. And thank you for coming on our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The major question that remains for me is about the flow of money. And how much money is flowing back to the Trumps, and how is it flowing back? And part of the reason that's really difficult to trace"}
{"id": "596035999", "date": "2018-03-22", "guest": "Donald Trump Jr", "title": "How The Trump Organization Mixes Business And Politics In India", "question_index": 38, "text": "Anjali Kamat's article \"Political Corruption And The Art Of The Deal\" is in The New Republic. Andrea Bernstein is the cohost of the podcast Trump, Inc., which, with Anjali, is doing a two-part series on the president, The Trump Organization and India. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much."}
{"id": "597278380", "date": "2018-03-27", "guest": "Buell Neidlinger", "title": "Remembering Buell Neidlinger, A Genre-Hopping Bassist, Composer And Music Teacher", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're going to listen back to an interview with Buell Neidlinger, a versatile genre- and style-hopping bassist, composer and music teacher. He died of a heart attack earlier this month at age 82. His career began as a child prodigy playing cello with the New York Philharmonic. He later premiered works by John Cage and Igor Stravinsky, and played with the Boston and Houston symphonies and the Los Angeles Chamber Orchestra. As a jazz musician, he became known as Cecil Taylor's first regular bassist starting in the 1950s. He also spent almost 30 years as a studio musician and recorded with pop stars like Barbra Streisand, Dolly Parton and the Eagles. In 1997, he moved to Whidbey Island in Washington state and continued to release albums. His latest, \"The Happenings: Music Of Herbie Nichols,\" was released last December. When I spoke to him in 1989, one of his groups, String Jazz, had recently released an album called \"Locomotive,\" which includes this Mercer Ellington tune \"Jumpin' Punkins,\" which we've played a lot on our show.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "597278380", "date": "2018-03-27", "guest": "Buell Neidlinger", "title": "Remembering Buell Neidlinger, A Genre-Hopping Bassist, Composer And Music Teacher", "question_index": 1, "text": "The repertoire that the String Jazz group plays is mostly Monk and Ellington. And I wonder, what do you learn by going very deeply into the work of composers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I always like the sound of the violin and the mandolin together. And when you put them with a saxophone, then you get a unique American sound that's been going around since I think about 1915 when the"}
{"id": "597278380", "date": "2018-03-27", "guest": "Buell Neidlinger", "title": "Remembering Buell Neidlinger, A Genre-Hopping Bassist, Composer And Music Teacher", "question_index": 2, "text": "Do you think that your classical training has helped you a lot as a jazz musician?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I only - the only music I play anymore mostly is - unless I wrote it myself or one of my friends did - is Monk and Ellington because, to me, they are the chief American composers, right with Cop"}
{"id": "597278380", "date": "2018-03-27", "guest": "Buell Neidlinger", "title": "Remembering Buell Neidlinger, A Genre-Hopping Bassist, Composer And Music Teacher", "question_index": 3, "text": "In jazz, you became well-known for playing with Cecil Taylor, joining him in the mid-'50s. How did you meet up and start playing together?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It - the whole thing is one ball, you know? And whatever I studied and learned and when I pick up the instrument, that's what I put to work. So the - it runs the whole gamut of my experience from play"}
{"id": "597278380", "date": "2018-03-27", "guest": "Buell Neidlinger", "title": "Remembering Buell Neidlinger, A Genre-Hopping Bassist, Composer And Music Teacher", "question_index": 4, "text": "When you started playing with Cecil Taylor, what was he doing different from any...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he needed a bass player, and nobody else was interested in playing with him, I guess. And so that's how he got me. And actually, I was, I think, a member of the original Cecil Taylor Unit, if I'"}
{"id": "597278380", "date": "2018-03-27", "guest": "Buell Neidlinger", "title": "Remembering Buell Neidlinger, A Genre-Hopping Bassist, Composer And Music Teacher", "question_index": 5, "text": "...Other pianist that you'd ever played with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Everything."}
{"id": "597278380", "date": "2018-03-27", "guest": "Buell Neidlinger", "title": "Remembering Buell Neidlinger, A Genre-Hopping Bassist, Composer And Music Teacher", "question_index": 6, "text": "In some of the sessions from the 1950s that have just been reissued, Cecil Taylor is playing really outside, and you're playing really tight rhythms behind him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Everything. Everything was different. He's a completely unique fellow. It's a fantastic energy. And his playing struck me most and also quite the developed musicality that he possessed. It's another c"}
{"id": "597278380", "date": "2018-03-27", "guest": "Buell Neidlinger", "title": "Remembering Buell Neidlinger, A Genre-Hopping Bassist, Composer And Music Teacher", "question_index": 7, "text": "...Very propulsive.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Really?"}
{"id": "597278380", "date": "2018-03-27", "guest": "Buell Neidlinger", "title": "Remembering Buell Neidlinger, A Genre-Hopping Bassist, Composer And Music Teacher", "question_index": 8, "text": "In your liner notes, you write that Cecil Taylor sometimes liked to create anger at sessions. Did you think of him as having a musical reason for doing that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't find his playing that outside. But anyway, it depends on what you're hearing experience has been how outside things are, you know. By the time I'd played with Cecil Taylor, I'd already heard S"}
{"id": "597278380", "date": "2018-03-27", "guest": "Buell Neidlinger", "title": "Remembering Buell Neidlinger, A Genre-Hopping Bassist, Composer And Music Teacher", "question_index": 9, "text": "What would he do to make you angry to get that energy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not just at sessions. He enjoyed watching that energy in many situations. And I guess he still does today. He has a little perversion that way. But I suppose he felt that he could obtain some out-of-t"}
{"id": "597278380", "date": "2018-03-27", "guest": "Buell Neidlinger", "title": "Remembering Buell Neidlinger, A Genre-Hopping Bassist, Composer And Music Teacher", "question_index": 10, "text": "You've done a lot of sessions and I'm sure some of them have been great fun and musically fulfilling and that others have been music that you'd perhaps consider kind of schlocky and it's been a chore but it paid OK. Can you give an example of a session that you'll always remember?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Once more."}
{"id": "597278380", "date": "2018-03-27", "guest": "Buell Neidlinger", "title": "Remembering Buell Neidlinger, A Genre-Hopping Bassist, Composer And Music Teacher", "question_index": 11, "text": "I want to play something from your new record \"Aurora.\" And this features you on bass and Marty Krystall on tenor saxophone and Peter Erskine on drums. I want to play a piece that you wrote for this record. It's called \"Buell St. Blues.\" You want to say anything about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One - certainly several wonderful sessions come to mind. One session that comes to mind the most recently is one with Roy Orbison where he recorded his last album. That was a thrilling session to actu"}
{"id": "597278380", "date": "2018-03-27", "guest": "Buell Neidlinger", "title": "Remembering Buell Neidlinger, A Genre-Hopping Bassist, Composer And Music Teacher", "question_index": 12, "text": "Can I just get you to hum a few bars of \"Beale Street Blues\" for our listeners who don't know it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. The \"Buell St. Blues\" is a play on \"Beale Street Blues,\" and it's actually sort of a paraphrase of that piece. It was one of my favorite compositions of W.C. Handy."}
{"id": "597278380", "date": "2018-03-27", "guest": "Buell Neidlinger", "title": "Remembering Buell Neidlinger, A Genre-Hopping Bassist, Composer And Music Teacher", "question_index": 13, "text": "My interview with Buell Neidlinger was recorded in 1989. He died of cancer March 16. He was 82. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, being a teenage girl worrying about pimples, boys, the SATs and the possibility of being deported. My guest will be Sara Saedi. She was 2 when her family fled Iran in 1982 and came to California where they had relatives. When their visitors' visas expired, they stayed illegally, hoping their applications for green cards would be approved. Saedi became a citizen when she was 26. She now writes for the TV series \"iZombie,\" and she's written a memoir about her teen years called \"Americanized.\" I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. (Singing) If Beale Street could talk, if Beale Street could walk, ma-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-da-da-doo-bop (ph). Like that. But the similarity is in the modulation because after he goes again"}
{"id": "597278380", "date": "2018-03-27", "guest": "Buell Neidlinger", "title": "Remembering Buell Neidlinger, A Genre-Hopping Bassist, Composer And Music Teacher", "question_index": 14, "text": "Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Mooj Zadie, Thea Chaloner and Seth Kelley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. (Singing) If Beale Street could talk, if Beale Street could walk, ma-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-na-da-da-doo-bop (ph). Like that. But the similarity is in the modulation because after he goes again"}
{"id": "597281783", "date": "2018-03-27", "guest": "Jan Morris", "title": "British Travel Writer Jan Morris Weighs In On The 'Advantages Of Androgyny'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. After hearing Maureen's review of Jan Morris' new book, we thought it would be interesting to listen back to the interview I recorded with Morris in 1989. In her 1974 memoir \"Conundrum,\" Morris wrote (reading) I spent half my life traveling in foreign places. I've only lately come to see that incessant wandering as an outer expression of my inner journey. Until 1972, Jan Morris published under the name James Morris. At the age of 46, Morris underwent gender reassignment surgery. Two years later, she wrote about gender in her memoir \"Conundrum.\" When I spoke with her, she'd just published a book called \"Pleasures Of A Tangled Life.\" In the prologue, she wrote that there was a time when new to womanhood, she tried to forget that she'd ever lived as a man. But over the years, she came to think that this was not only intellectually dishonest but rather dull. Yet Morris didn't write much about gender in the book I talked to her about. That book focused on the pleasures that had sustained her over the years. She wrote that a pleasure she highly recommends is androgyny. So I asked her to explain.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "597281783", "date": "2018-03-27", "guest": "Jan Morris", "title": "British Travel Writer Jan Morris Weighs In On The 'Advantages Of Androgyny'", "question_index": 1, "text": "When you were still writing as James Morris, you were best-known for being the reporter who climbed Mount Everest with Edmund Hillary and for your volumes \"Pax Britannica,\" which was about the Victorian empire. Do you think your writing changed when your gender changed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, androgyny means to me that I have shared, if not in the present, at least in the past, a lot of the emotions and the experiences of both genders. And why I say at the beginning of the book, chie"}
{"id": "597281783", "date": "2018-03-27", "guest": "Jan Morris", "title": "British Travel Writer Jan Morris Weighs In On The 'Advantages Of Androgyny'", "question_index": 2, "text": "You've traveled and written about travel for much of your life, and you think you write in a different style than many American travel writers do.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To begin with, I did think so. I seemed to fear in myself more of a compassion towards detail rather than sweep, if you understand me. It seems to me I was exploring smaller things rather than larger "}
{"id": "597281783", "date": "2018-03-27", "guest": "Jan Morris", "title": "British Travel Writer Jan Morris Weighs In On The 'Advantages Of Androgyny'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Yeah. Well, you write that you had to learn to see Africa in non-colonial terms. What were some of the things you were up against because of your own upbringing that you felt you had to unlearn when travelling?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I do. And I think there are historical reasons for it, as a matter of fact. You know, I think that Americans having all, after all, come from somewhere else perhaps feel properly really that they"}
{"id": "597281783", "date": "2018-03-27", "guest": "Jan Morris", "title": "British Travel Writer Jan Morris Weighs In On The 'Advantages Of Androgyny'", "question_index": 4, "text": "One of the experiences that I think first made you famous or kind of famous was your experience on Mount Everest. You were there with Edmund Hillary when he scaled to the top. And you were the first person to report it to the press. What was the experience like when you got to the top there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "and the majority of it was ours anyway and was colored largely red upon the map. And so one went abroad in a spirit of unfair and illicit privilege. I remember Alan Moorehead writing about the British"}
{"id": "597281783", "date": "2018-03-27", "guest": "Jan Morris", "title": "British Travel Writer Jan Morris Weighs In On The 'Advantages Of Androgyny'", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When you say sort of famous, you got it right."}
{"id": "597281783", "date": "2018-03-27", "guest": "Jan Morris", "title": "British Travel Writer Jan Morris Weighs In On The 'Advantages Of Androgyny'", "question_index": 6, "text": "And did you think, well, I'd better exploit this fame right away to get myself more pay for what I'm writing or to write for a more prestigious place or to write my first book or whatever?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "597281783", "date": "2018-03-27", "guest": "Jan Morris", "title": "British Travel Writer Jan Morris Weighs In On The 'Advantages Of Androgyny'", "question_index": 7, "text": "You were really quite successful in the world of men - I mean, for instance, being able to climb part of Mount Everest, you were an officer in the cavalry. I guess wanting the gender change didn't have to do with what we would perceive as success as a man.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was quite happy with what I was. The only thing I did want to do was to write a book about it. And unfortunately, The Times in those days was - not only were all its correspondents anonymous, but yo"}
{"id": "597281783", "date": "2018-03-27", "guest": "Jan Morris", "title": "British Travel Writer Jan Morris Weighs In On The 'Advantages Of Androgyny'", "question_index": 8, "text": "I think it was at the end of \"Conundrum\" you wrote I have lived the life of a man. I live now the life of a woman. One day perhaps I shall transcend both. Are you still interested in transcending both, and what do you mean by that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. It didn't have to do with anything, as a matter of fact. I've - it was a mystery to me then and it remains a mystery to me now. I personally think it had some sort of a spiritual purpose behind it"}
{"id": "597281783", "date": "2018-03-27", "guest": "Jan Morris", "title": "British Travel Writer Jan Morris Weighs In On The 'Advantages Of Androgyny'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Did you say happy or unhappy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's conceivable that I have transcended both, as a matter of fact. I feel myself to be part of each and of both and that seems to be a not unhappy situation."}
{"id": "597281783", "date": "2018-03-27", "guest": "Jan Morris", "title": "British Travel Writer Jan Morris Weighs In On The 'Advantages Of Androgyny'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Oh, oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "597281783", "date": "2018-03-27", "guest": "Jan Morris", "title": "British Travel Writer Jan Morris Weighs In On The 'Advantages Of Androgyny'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Why would you prefer transcending both sexes rather than being part of one?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I rather like these double negatives."}
{"id": "597281783", "date": "2018-03-27", "guest": "Jan Morris", "title": "British Travel Writer Jan Morris Weighs In On The 'Advantages Of Androgyny'", "question_index": 12, "text": "OK. Well, I thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because, as I've said before, it seems to me the purpose of my life anyways is a quest for unity and reconciliation. And that's a beginning, isn't it?"}
{"id": "597281783", "date": "2018-03-27", "guest": "Jan Morris", "title": "British Travel Writer Jan Morris Weighs In On The 'Advantages Of Androgyny'", "question_index": 13, "text": "Jan Morris, recorded in 1989. Her new book, which Maureen Corrigan reviewed earlier in the show, is called \"Battleship Yamato.\" After we take a short break, we'll listen back to my 1989 interview with bass player and composer Buell Neidlinger, who died earlier this month. He played with people ranging from jazz avant-gardist Cecil Taylor to country star Dolly Parton. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much indeed."}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest says her life began during a hostage crisis, a revolution and a war. When Sara Saedi was born in Iran in 1980, Americans were being held hostage by revolutionary Iranian students who had stormed the American embassy. The Ayatollah Khomeini had just come to power, turning the country into a fundamentalist state, and Iran was at war with Iraq. When Saedi was 2, she fled the country with her family and moved to California where they had relatives. When their visitors visas expired, they stayed in California, hoping their applications for green cards would eventually be approved. Saedi remembers her teenage years as marked by aloof boys, prepping for the SATs and a looming fear of deportation. She became a citizen at the age of 26. She's now a TV writer. She's currently with the CW series \"iZombie,\" and she writes books for young adults. Her new book is a memoir for young adults called \"Americanized: Rebel Without A Green Card.\" Sara Saedi, welcome to FRESH AIR. So were you the only person your age when you were growing up who you knew who was also undocumented?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 1, "text": "So you were 13 when you found out your family's immigration status.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Aside from my sister, who was 3 years older than me, I didn't know anybody else in my friend group or in my high school that was undocumented."}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 2, "text": "Tell us the story of how you found out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 3, "text": "So how did that knowledge affect you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I had no idea that we were undocumented. I didn't - I'd never even heard the term. At that time, they said illegal alien. And I had never heard that term before. It was just one aftern"}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 4, "text": "How worried were you about getting deported when you were a teenager?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was shocking. I mean, at that point, we had been living in the U.S., in the Bay Area specifically, for 10 years. And it gave me a lot of anxiety as a teenager, just the idea that we could get depor"}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 5, "text": "So you're very funny about this in the book, although it's really not funny. At the same time that you were dealing with fear of deportation, you were also dealing with bad acne. So did the fears of getting deported make the acne seem any less significant?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was something that was always in the back of my mind. My parents were very reassuring, and they tried to tell us that something like that would never happen. But we were very aware of the fact that"}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 6, "text": "Right. So the deportation fear was something you had to keep secret whereas the acne you could not keep secret at all.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Probably not. According to my high school journals and diaries, it was - the acne probably came up more consistently than being an undocumented immigrant did. So, yeah, there was still a lot of that t"}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 7, "text": "It was very, very visible.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, exactly. It was right on my face."}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 8, "text": "So it's just such an interesting dichotomy. You know, on the one hand, you're living this kind of, like, suburban life in the Bay Area. You're going to a good school in part because you lied about your address", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, exactly. It was right on my face."}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 9, "text": ". You gave a relative's address so that you could get into a better school. When I say you, I mean your parents.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, exactly. It was right on my face."}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yes. And so at the same time, like, you're living this, like, nice suburban existence, going to this great school, you're also in some ways having to stay in the shadows and be a little secretive.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. We were very resourceful in that way."}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 11, "text": "Your father had gone to college at Louisiana State University, so he lived in the states for a few years and then he married your mother while he was still a student, so she lived here with him for a couple of years. Then they returned to Iran. Why did they decide to flee the country, and when was it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think the big difference - you know, as I was researching the book and writing about my family's story, the big difference between being undocumented when I was in the '90s versus now is that,"}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 12, "text": "No, you say she wore miniskirts.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They decided to leave Iran in 1982. So it was a couple years after the revolution, and they just saw the country go through a very extreme shift in a very short amount of time. During the protests aga"}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 13, "text": "When your family left Iran, they had to do it in stages. Your mother went with you and your older sister, and your father had to stay behind. Why did he have to stay behind?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She did, yeah, she did. I've seen the photos. So Iran during the '70s, I mean, not many people know this, but it was, you know, it was a vacation destination for many Westerners. It was a thriving cit"}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 14, "text": "So, you know, you write when your father joined your family after three months, you didn't recognize him, and you were afraid of him for a while. And that must've just broken his heart.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One of the reasons that he stayed behind is because they didn't think that the government would allow us to leave the country if my dad was coming with us. What they - what my mom had told the governm"}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 15, "text": "So I don't want to get too deep into the bureaucracy of the Immigration and Naturalization", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He says, looking back on that time, that that was the most difficult part of our separation because I was only 2 years old, so I didn't have much memory of him. And it was hard for me to adjust "}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 16, "text": "Service. But can you just give us an overview of what your status was and how it changed over time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He says, looking back on that time, that that was the most difficult part of our separation because I was only 2 years old, so I didn't have much memory of him. And it was hard for me to adjust "}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 17, "text": "Must've been pretty crazy in your family when your parents divorced in order to get the green card.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And we ended up getting the green card through my uncle. It just took an extremely long time."}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 18, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Sara Saedi. And she's the author of the new memoir \"Americanized: Rebel Without A Green Card.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It was really tough because, you know, I write a lot in the book about my parents' relationship, and I was very lucky that I was raised by two people that were happily married. So the fact that "}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is TV writer Sara Saedi. She writes for The CW show \"iZombie.\" She's also the author of books for young adults, and her new book is a memoir for young adults. It's called \"Americanized: Rebel Without A Green Card.\" And it's about how her family, when she was 2, moved from Iran to the U.S. They came here on a visitor's visa and then stayed to escape the Iran-Iraq war and the Iranian revolution. And then it took years for them to become citizens. It took years just to get green cards, and they lived in fear of being deported. And her memoir is about being a teenager while dealing with all the teenager stuff and also dealing with all the immigration stuff and the fear of being deported. So tell us about the day that you became an American citizen. What was the ceremony like for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It was really tough because, you know, I write a lot in the book about my parents' relationship, and I was very lucky that I was raised by two people that were happily married. So the fact that "}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 20, "text": "It just impresses me, since you worked so hard to become a citizen and endured so much anxiety about not being one, to take it so lightly during the ceremony itself,", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "they were swearing us in. So maybe that was the most American thing I could be doing, was to be working while becoming an American citizen. But it was - looking back on it, there was a sense of commun"}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 21, "text": "to be distracted by a script you were reading for \"General Hospital\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "they were swearing us in. So maybe that was the most American thing I could be doing, was to be working while becoming an American citizen. But it was - looking back on it, there was a sense of commun"}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "they were swearing us in. So maybe that was the most American thing I could be doing, was to be working while becoming an American citizen. But it was - looking back on it, there was a sense of commun"}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 23, "text": "So you voted in three presidential elections. Obama won the first two. Trump won the third. Considering Donald Trump's anti-immigration policies and his anti-immigration positions as a candidate, how did his election affect you, and how has his presidency affected you? Has it had an effect on your day-to-day life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I know. I'm still - I'm still really regretful of that fact because I remember seeing other people around me being so excited and wondering now if they looked at me and thought, oh, she must have"}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 24, "text": "My guest is Sara Saedi. Her new memoir for young adults is called \"Americanized: Rebel Without A Green Card.\" We'll talk more after a break. And jazz critic Kevin Whitehead will review the album \"Miles Davis & John Coltrane: The Final Tour,\" recordings of the last dates Coltrane played as a sideman with Miles. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's had a huge impact. One of the things that motivated me to write the book was the rhetoric that seemed so hostile towards immigrants during the 2016 election. And so as I was writing the book, at "}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 25, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross, back with Sara Saedi. Her new memoir for young adults is called \"Americanized: Rebel Without A Green Card.\" It's about her teenage years when, in addition to all the typical things teenage girls worry about, she was worried about getting deported. She was born in Iran in 1980 when the country had just become an Islamic fundamentalist state. Her family fled when she was 2 and came to California where they had relatives. When their visitors visas expired, they stayed, hoping their green cards would eventually be approved. During the long wait, they lived here illegally. Saedi is now a U.S. citizen. She writes for The CW series \"iZombie.\" So while you're going through all this teenage angst about, you know, boys and how you look and your acne, you also learned that your grandmother in Iran, when she was married, she had an affair with her husband's nephew. And then her husband left her. Because of that affair, she ended up marrying the nephew, and your mother is the daughter of that marriage. How did you find out about that, and how - what did that mean to you since today Iran is so, like, socially conservative, especially for women? I mean, women are so constrained in that society now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's had a huge impact. One of the things that motivated me to write the book was the rhetoric that seemed so hostile towards immigrants during the 2016 election. And so as I was writing the book, at "}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 26, "text": "He was, like, 21, and she was 29.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, they were certainly socially conservative on that front when my grandmother was dealing with all that marital strife. And I - again, it was something that I didn't know about all along. I thin"}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 27, "text": "What impact did that have on your mother growing up in this family that was considered scandalized?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. She was 29 I believe, yeah. And they had this love affair that - the way that I was told it was something that they didn't act on. It was just all emotions until she decided to leave her husband"}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 28, "text": "I was thinking the same thing, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I think for her it had actually less of an impact than it did for her oldest siblings who then grew up without their mother. My aunt and my uncle lived most of the time with their dad. And I"}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 29, "text": "That'd probably not play well here.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 30, "text": "She lost those children in the divorce.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, exactly. But, yes, in the 1940s in Iran, it was just unheard of that somebody would do something like this, and she did pay a high price. I mean, she did lose two of her kids. And then I write a"}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 31, "text": "So here's another story from your family in Iran. Your maternal great-grandfather was a polygamist, and he was a doctor. And you write that sometimes he'd see patients for free in exchange for being able to marry their young 13 or 14-year-old daughters.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, she lost them in the divorce. They continued to live with their dad. And then her youngest daughter, who was 6 years old, came to live with her and then tragically drowned when she was 6. So ther"}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 32, "text": "So, like, how - how do you process that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. He wasn't a great guy."}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 33, "text": "So through the memoir, you reprint some of the excerpts of your high school diary. So I'm going to ask you to read your entry from February 8, 1995. Why don't you start by telling us how old you were when you wrote this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's so foreign from what I am used to and what I've been raised with that it almost feels like it's not real. It almost feels like it's some fantasy life that I'm writing about because it's somebody "}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 34, "text": "OK. Would you read it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was 14 years old when I wrote this."}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 35, "text": "What had happened that made you feel like such a loser?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course. (Reading) I feel so ugly. There must be something really wrong with me. All the guys like all the made-up, permed hair, easy, trendy girls, and I really refuse to change my whole personalit"}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 36, "text": "So after that boy told you that you had a unibrow and you found it very upsetting, did you tweeze your eyebrows?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was in response to a guy that I had a crush on my freshman year of high school who sat next to me in English class. And one day, we - I thought we were flirting and just, like, making fun of each o"}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 37, "text": "Why was tweezing your eyebrows considered, you know, crossing a line?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It actually took me a while to tweeze my eyebrows because, strangely enough, even though many Iranians are OK with their teenagers getting plastic surgery, plucking our eyebrows was sort of a rite of "}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 38, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Sara Saedi. Her new memoir, \"Americanized: Rebel Without A Green Card,\" is about being a teenager and about being here without documentation and all the work her family went through to become citizens. We're going to take a short break, and then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But it was something that - for my mom, it was just always a cultural thing, that it was something that you didn't do when you were too young. But I do think that it was a real struggle for her in a"}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 39, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Sara Saedi. And she's a TV writer. She writes for the TV series \"iZombie,\" which is on The CW. She's also the author of books for young adults, and her new book is a memoir for young adults called \"Americanized: Rebel Without A Green Card.\" Her family is from Iran. That's where she was born when she was 2. Her family moved to the U.S. They had to, like, sneak out of Iran because the borders were closed. This was after the revolution, during the Iran-Iraq War. And when they came to the United States, they were here on a visitor's visa, but they outstayed the length of the visa and then went through a long process of trying to become citizens and trying to get green cards and living in fear of being deported. You were a creative executive at ABC, and I know you were working on \"General Hospital\" there. I bet you heard a lot of really crazy plots", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But it was something that - for my mom, it was just always a cultural thing, that it was something that you didn't do when you were too young. But I do think that it was a real struggle for her in a"}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 40, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But it was something that - for my mom, it was just always a cultural thing, that it was something that you didn't do when you were too young. But I do think that it was a real struggle for her in a"}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 41, "text": "With Billy Crystal, right? Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, definitely. And a lot of my notes, if I could go back and look at them, are ridiculous because the things that we were discussing were the, you know, tried-and-true soap opera cliches like the ev"}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 42, "text": "So now you're working on a series on The CW called \"iZombie.\" And I confess I haven't seen the series, but I was reading about it. And the plot sounds kind of crazy. Like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. It's definitely very accurate in some of the ways. Like, some of the actors that gave us a lot of trouble, we would just kill them off."}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 43, "text": "It sounds like the main character is a woman who becomes a zombie. She works in a morgue and eats the brains of people she autopsies. And after ingesting the brain, she takes on some of the characteristics of the person whose brain she ate, including some of their memories. So with that special power, she becomes a consultant to the police to help them solve murders. Do I have that right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 44, "text": "How do you cook that up", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's exactly right."}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 45, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's exactly right."}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 46, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the show is based on a comic book, and I actually joined the writing staff in the second season. And I will say there's definitely moments where we're all sitting in the writer's room and we kin"}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 47, "text": "And help the world", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And how that'll impact the rest of the characters and all their stories..."}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 48, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And how that'll impact the rest of the characters and all their stories..."}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 49, "text": "Are all the more recent zombies good-guy zombies like the main character is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, exactly. And, you know, we usually start every episode by trying to figure out, you know, who the murder victim should be and how they should get murdered. And usually we try and find a brain tha"}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 50, "text": "You're an American citizen now. You're married to someone who's American-born. And you have a child who's 15 months old. So your child is American. You're an American citizen now. You're married to someone who's American-born. And you have a child who's 15 months old. So your child is American. He's American-born. What does that mean to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's a good mix. There's definitely many bad zombies out there as well. And there's - in this season, the city of Seattle has a border wall around it, so nobody can leave the city or get into the c"}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 51, "text": "OK. Well, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, one of the things that was really eye-opening after he was born was how quickly and easily we received his Social Security card in the mail. And that was a really significant moment for me b"}
{"id": "597600898", "date": "2018-03-28", "guest": "Sara Saedi", "title": "'Americanized' Recounts What It's Like To Grow Up Undocumented", "question_index": 52, "text": "Sara Saedi's new memoir for young adults is called \"Americanized: Rebel Without A Green Card.\" After we take a short break, jazz critic Kevin Whitehead will review the new album \"Miles Davis & John Coltrane - The Final Tour.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much."}
{"id": "597783188", "date": "2018-03-29", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Reporter Tells Of Persian Gulf Rivalries, Hacked Emails And A Mueller Subpoena", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The cast of characters in the Mueller investigation is continuing to grow. One of the people subpoenaed, who we're just starting to learn about, is George Nader. He's been given immunity in return for becoming a cooperating witness. Nader has been serving as a political adviser to the crown prince of the United Arab Emirates, the UAE. Nader cultivated a relationship with the deputy finance chair of the Republican National Committee, Elliott Broidy, using Broidy to try to get access to President Trump and his administration and influence policy on issues of special concern to the UAE. In return, Nader would help Broidy get lucrative contracts in the UAE for Broidy's defense company. My guest, David Kirkpatrick, has been covering this story. He's a New York Times international correspondent based in London. His reporting has drawn on hundreds of pages of leaked emails between Broidy and Nader. Kirkpatrick says Broidy's ability to leverage his political connections to boost his business is an example of how Trump has spawned a new breed of access-peddling in the swamp he vowed to drain. David Kirkpatrick, welcome back to FRESH AIR. It is a great pleasure to talk with you again. So you've described this story as a case study of how two Persian Gulf monarchies - the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia - have sought to gain influence inside the White House. So let's just start with, what do they want from the Trump administration, the Emiratis and the Saudis?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "597783188", "date": "2018-03-29", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Reporter Tells Of Persian Gulf Rivalries, Hacked Emails And A Mueller Subpoena", "question_index": 1, "text": "But the United States has an important military base in Qatar, which is very important in the war against ISIS.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's a very interesting question because the Emiratis and the Saudis, of course, are some of America's closest Arab allies in the Middle East. At the same time, they're both very active trying"}
{"id": "597783188", "date": "2018-03-29", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Reporter Tells Of Persian Gulf Rivalries, Hacked Emails And A Mueller Subpoena", "question_index": 2, "text": "OK. So let's bring Robert Mueller into this story. He has granted immunity to George Nader, an adviser to the crown prince of the United Arab Emirates, in return for Nader's cooperation with Mueller's investigation. What do you know about what Mueller hopes to find out from George Nader?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It has an enormously important military base in Qatar and a deep commitment to that country. And inside the Defense Department and the State Department, they view Qatar as a close ally as well, "}
{"id": "597783188", "date": "2018-03-29", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Reporter Tells Of Persian Gulf Rivalries, Hacked Emails And A Mueller Subpoena", "question_index": 3, "text": "So there's so many interesting branches in this story. So let's look at another aspect of it. You have access to emails that were hacked and leaked between George Nader, who is, again, the adviser to the crown prince of the United Arab Emirates and someone named Elliott Broidy, who's a Republican fundraiser who has had access to the Trump administration. So that's another way of looking at how the UAE has tried to influence the Trump administration and get access to it. So before we talk in more depth about the emails, let's look a little bit at George Nader's background. He's the political adviser to the UAE. He was also convicted on charges of child porn and sexual abuse of minors. So has that served to hurt his reputation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there are some very interesting possibilities. First of all, Mueller's investigators have been asking witnesses about the possibility that Mr. Nader sought to funnel money from the United Arab E"}
{"id": "597783188", "date": "2018-03-29", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Reporter Tells Of Persian Gulf Rivalries, Hacked Emails And A Mueller Subpoena", "question_index": 4, "text": "NBZ, OK. So he gets in touch with Elliott Broidy, who's a big Republican fundraiser. Tell us a little about Elliott Broidy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You'd think it would - wouldn't you? - because it appears to have been fairly widely known. We were hearing it at the rumor level for a while before it was confirmed by court records. He's a fascinati"}
{"id": "597783188", "date": "2018-03-29", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Reporter Tells Of Persian Gulf Rivalries, Hacked Emails And A Mueller Subpoena", "question_index": 5, "text": "So Nader wants a political outcome from the Trump administration. Broidy wants lucrative defense contracts with Gulf nations like the United Arab Emirates.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Elliott Broidy is a fund manager, a money manager based in Los Angeles. He's been a Republican donor for a long time. He also happens to own a private security company, a defense contractor that pr"}
{"id": "597783188", "date": "2018-03-29", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Reporter Tells Of Persian Gulf Rivalries, Hacked Emails And A Mueller Subpoena", "question_index": 6, "text": "So when describing who Elliott Broidy is, he's also had legal problems in the past?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right - and also Saudi Arabia. And some of the proposals they discussed were for contracts on the order of $600 million or $650 million. So it's not small change."}
{"id": "597783188", "date": "2018-03-29", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Reporter Tells Of Persian Gulf Rivalries, Hacked Emails And A Mueller Subpoena", "question_index": 7, "text": "Right. And so is Broidy is still deputy finance chair of the Republican National Committee?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, he has. In 2009, he was caught up in a scandal involving the New York State pension fund. He gave a million dollars in inappropriate gifts, including funding for the movie project of a family mem"}
{"id": "597783188", "date": "2018-03-29", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Reporter Tells Of Persian Gulf Rivalries, Hacked Emails And A Mueller Subpoena", "question_index": 8, "text": "So he's working for the Republican National Committee at the same time he's seeking these lucrative defense contracts with Gulf nations who have political interests with the Republican Party.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, he is."}
{"id": "597783188", "date": "2018-03-29", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Reporter Tells Of Persian Gulf Rivalries, Hacked Emails And A Mueller Subpoena", "question_index": 9, "text": "My guest is David Kirkpatrick, an international correspondent for The New York Times. We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yup. And not just Gulf nations - he's also seeking contracts from Romania, from the Congo, from Angola. He's - you know, he's open for business."}
{"id": "597783188", "date": "2018-03-29", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Reporter Tells Of Persian Gulf Rivalries, Hacked Emails And A Mueller Subpoena", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. My guest is David Kirkpatrick, an international correspondent for The New York Times. We're talking about the seemingly quid pro quo relationship between George Nader, a political adviser to the United Arab Emirates who's now a cooperating witness in the Mueller investigation, and Elliott Broidy, a top Republican fundraiser who has close ties to the president and also owns a defense contracting company. So Broidy promises Nader that he can give Nader's client, the United Arab Emirates, access to the Trump administration. What kind of access did the UAE want?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yup. And not just Gulf nations - he's also seeking contracts from Romania, from the Congo, from Angola. He's - you know, he's open for business."}
{"id": "597783188", "date": "2018-03-29", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Reporter Tells Of Persian Gulf Rivalries, Hacked Emails And A Mueller Subpoena", "question_index": 11, "text": "So in getting back to what the United Arab Emirates wants and therefore what Nader wants Broidy to help accomplish - and correct me if I'm wrong on any of this - the UAE wants to remove Tillerson.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the UAE is out to try to get the U.S. to line up as much as possible with its own regional priorities. So it wants to be tough on Iran. It wants the U.S. to back the UAE in its spat with its nei"}
{"id": "597783188", "date": "2018-03-29", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Reporter Tells Of Persian Gulf Rivalries, Hacked Emails And A Mueller Subpoena", "question_index": 12, "text": "The UAE wanted to block Anne Patterson from being appointed to a top Pentagon position because when she was the ambassador to Cairo, she was too sympathetic to President Mohamed Morsi of the Muslim Brotherhood, who has since been deposed. And she was in fact blocked.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Tillerson is someone who took a more conciliatory approach towards Qatar and was not as ready as they would like to rip up the nuclear deal with Iran that Obama negotiated. So he was somebody wh"}
{"id": "597783188", "date": "2018-03-29", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Reporter Tells Of Persian Gulf Rivalries, Hacked Emails And A Mueller Subpoena", "question_index": 13, "text": "So Nader also wanted Broidy to use his contacts within the Trump administration to get President Trump to meet privately outside the White House with the crown prince of the United Arab Emirates.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's right. And in one email that Elliott Broidy sent George Nader, it looks like he's kind of trying to take some credit for that. He says this was done partly by this political action commit"}
{"id": "597783188", "date": "2018-03-29", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Reporter Tells Of Persian Gulf Rivalries, Hacked Emails And A Mueller Subpoena", "question_index": 14, "text": "And then...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "597783188", "date": "2018-03-29", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Reporter Tells Of Persian Gulf Rivalries, Hacked Emails And A Mueller Subpoena", "question_index": 15, "text": "OK. And then when McMaster - when H.R. McMaster was still national security adviser, he blocked that meeting. Did that meeting ever happen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Now you've really hit on the interesting one."}
{"id": "597783188", "date": "2018-03-29", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Reporter Tells Of Persian Gulf Rivalries, Hacked Emails And A Mueller Subpoena", "question_index": 16, "text": "Or to see - like he didn't even want to be seen, I guess.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It hasn't happened yet. I think Crown Prince Mohammed bin Zayed may be on the way to the U.S. this spring. So we'll see. But it is a fascinating situation. Mr. Elliott Broidy went to the White House. "}
{"id": "597783188", "date": "2018-03-29", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Reporter Tells Of Persian Gulf Rivalries, Hacked Emails And A Mueller Subpoena", "question_index": 17, "text": "So President Trump has actually done some of the things that Nader was pushing for - like firing Rex Tillerson as secretary of state, blocking the appointment of Anne Patterson. But we don't know if the UAE lobbying for that through Nader had anything to do with Trump actually firing Tillerson or blocking Patterson.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Or, well, maybe he just - I mean, people - clearly everyone around the White House would know if he was meeting with Trump in New York or at one of his clubs or a Camp David. But he - you know, "}
{"id": "597783188", "date": "2018-03-29", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Reporter Tells Of Persian Gulf Rivalries, Hacked Emails And A Mueller Subpoena", "question_index": 18, "text": "OK, so another thing that Nader wanted Broidy to do was set up conferences that, as part of their agenda, promote the United Arab Emirates' agenda. How successful was Broidy in accomplishing that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, correct. We don't know. In fact, there's a lot of - there are a lot of forces at work pushing in the same direction. The same with the promotion of Mike Pompeo, who was a favorite of the Emirati"}
{"id": "597783188", "date": "2018-03-29", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Reporter Tells Of Persian Gulf Rivalries, Hacked Emails And A Mueller Subpoena", "question_index": 19, "text": "At one of the conferences that we're talking about, the Republican Congressman Ed Royce, from California who chairs the House Foreign Affairs Committee, said that the U.S. should consider moving its military base out of Qatar if Qatar doesn't stop funding terrorist groups. Is Qatar funding terrorist groups?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there were two conferences. They were well attended. It's hard to measure the success of a conference, but they were part of a broad campaign over the course of the last year to gin up suspicion"}
{"id": "597783188", "date": "2018-03-29", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Reporter Tells Of Persian Gulf Rivalries, Hacked Emails And A Mueller Subpoena", "question_index": 20, "text": "My guest is David Kirkpatrick, a New York Times international correspondent based in London. After a break, we'll talk about a part of the larger story Kirkpatrick has been covering that he describes as eye-popping. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think the short answer is that they're somewhat selective. If you were to look at all the Gulf countries, you would say, well, many of these countries have a problem with allowing funding for "}
{"id": "597783188", "date": "2018-03-29", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Reporter Tells Of Persian Gulf Rivalries, Hacked Emails And A Mueller Subpoena", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross back with David Kirkpatrick, a New York Times international correspondent based in London. We're talking about George Nader, who has agreed to cooperate with Robert Mueller's investigation in return for immunity. Nader has been a political adviser to the crown prince of the United Arab Emirates, the UAE. Nader formed an alliance with Elliott Broidy, a Republican National Committee deputy finance chair who also owns a defense contracting business. The arrangement was Broidy would help Nader's client, the crown prince, get access to President Trump. Nader would help Broidy get lucrative defense contracts in the Gulf. So one of the things that Broidy does for Nader, which Nader wanted Broidy to do, is to give him - help him get some kind of access to Trump. One of the things that Broidy helped arrange for Nader was an invitation to Mar-a-Lago to attend the anniversary celebration - a big gala celebrating the one-year anniversary of the Trump inauguration. And it's through that trip, that the FBI presents him with a subpoena for the Mueller investigation. So what's the story there? How did they serve the subpoena?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think the short answer is that they're somewhat selective. If you were to look at all the Gulf countries, you would say, well, many of these countries have a problem with allowing funding for "}
{"id": "597783188", "date": "2018-03-29", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Reporter Tells Of Persian Gulf Rivalries, Hacked Emails And A Mueller Subpoena", "question_index": 22, "text": "What do you think Mueller had on Nader that led him to issue the subpoena and want him to cooperate?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he was he was transiting through an airport, and he was stopped right then and there and given a subpoena that he needed to testify to Mr. Mueller. And a series of discussions began. And that's "}
{"id": "597783188", "date": "2018-03-29", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Reporter Tells Of Persian Gulf Rivalries, Hacked Emails And A Mueller Subpoena", "question_index": 23, "text": "So meanwhile, like, you've gotten access to hundreds of emails between Broidy and Nader that tell you a lot of the back story of what happened here. How did you get the emails, and what do you know about who hacked them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have no idea exactly what he had. But here's a guy who was working for the UAE. He was in and out of the White House. He apparently had close relations with Jared Kushner and Steve Bannon. And he wa"}
{"id": "597783188", "date": "2018-03-29", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Reporter Tells Of Persian Gulf Rivalries, Hacked Emails And A Mueller Subpoena", "question_index": 24, "text": "That Qatar had hacked the emails?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they were given to us by an anonymous group which is - introduces themselves to us as being critical of Elliott Broidy and his views on policies in the Middle East. So we don't know who hacked t"}
{"id": "597783188", "date": "2018-03-29", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Reporter Tells Of Persian Gulf Rivalries, Hacked Emails And A Mueller Subpoena", "question_index": 25, "text": "Right. And Broidy is actually trying to sue Qatar for hacking the emails. And that's a kind of precedent-setting lawsuit, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that Qatar arranged the hacking. It was a sophisticated effort. It required a big budget. It's something that probably only a state or someone like a state could do. And by the way, another bete"}
{"id": "597783188", "date": "2018-03-29", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Reporter Tells Of Persian Gulf Rivalries, Hacked Emails And A Mueller Subpoena", "question_index": 26, "text": "What was it like for you to get access to these hacked emails? I mean, what do you do? Do you just start reading through all of them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I don't think anything like that has been done before. He's suing the government of Qatar in U.S. court and trying to hold them accountable for this hacking. So it's interesting because it's nov"}
{"id": "597783188", "date": "2018-03-29", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Reporter Tells Of Persian Gulf Rivalries, Hacked Emails And A Mueller Subpoena", "question_index": 27, "text": "Well, you know, you mention, like, is this ethical? You know, you're a journalist. You have a conscience. Is this OK to read these emails and report on them because leaking them was a crime? Hacking them was a crime. And, you know, did you ask yourself, like, if you had gotten emails from the DNC that were hacked during the presidential campaign, would you have reported on those, especially now that it's become clearer that they were intended to influence the outcome - that the hack was intended to influence the outcome of the election?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first, there's a question of conscience because, you know, to take advantage of these emails is to benefit from a crime, right? I mean, I'm a journalist. I should not be encouraging one party to"}
{"id": "597783188", "date": "2018-03-29", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Reporter Tells Of Persian Gulf Rivalries, Hacked Emails And A Mueller Subpoena", "question_index": 28, "text": "So tell us something else about what you learned through the email that just adds some kind of color or drama to this story and helps you understand more the relationship between these two men.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I come back to the fact that if the information is newsworthy, we should publish it. You know, our allegiance is to our readers. And we serve our readers. And if we were to start rejecting infor"}
{"id": "597783188", "date": "2018-03-29", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Reporter Tells Of Persian Gulf Rivalries, Hacked Emails And A Mueller Subpoena", "question_index": 29, "text": "So the carrot for Elliott Broidy was Nader saying, I'm going to get you these contracts, really lucrative, it's going to be great. You're doing a terrific job, and I'm going to get you these contracts. Did Broidy get contracts from the UAE or the Saudis?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I must say that the thing that was hard to convey in the newspaper - and I will try to convey now - is just the portrait of manipulation that emerges, that the way that Nader was constantly remi"}
{"id": "597783188", "date": "2018-03-29", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Reporter Tells Of Persian Gulf Rivalries, Hacked Emails And A Mueller Subpoena", "question_index": 30, "text": "My guest is David Kirkpatrick, an international correspondent for The New York Times. We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He has a contract with the UAE. Its final value was not as large, I'm told, as they originally sought. But it is worth more than 200 million. It appears to include some intelligence services and also "}
{"id": "597783188", "date": "2018-03-29", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Reporter Tells Of Persian Gulf Rivalries, Hacked Emails And A Mueller Subpoena", "question_index": 31, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. My guest is David Kirkpatrick, an international correspondent for The New York Times. We're talking about the seemingly quid pro quo relationship between George Nader, a political adviser to the United Arab Emirates who's now a cooperating witness in the Mueller investigation, and Elliott Broidy, a Republican fundraiser who also owns a defense contracting company. Broidy was supposed to help Nader get his client, the crown prince of the UAE, access to Trump. Nader was supposed to help Broidy get lucrative defense contracts in the Gulf. So the United Arab Emirates, which we've been talking about, is basically on the same page with the Saudis when it comes to alliances in the Middle East. Both the Saudis and the UAE are kind of enemies of Iran and of Qatar. Last week, the crown prince of Saudi Arabia was welcomed to the White House by President Trump. Do you know what that meeting was about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He has a contract with the UAE. Its final value was not as large, I'm told, as they originally sought. But it is worth more than 200 million. It appears to include some intelligence services and also "}
{"id": "597783188", "date": "2018-03-29", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Reporter Tells Of Persian Gulf Rivalries, Hacked Emails And A Mueller Subpoena", "question_index": 32, "text": "There's also a big weapons deal, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the crown prince of Saudi Arabia is on kind of a tour right now. He visited London. Then he visited Washington. He's visited New York. He's meeting with business leaders. He's kind of trying to "}
{"id": "597783188", "date": "2018-03-29", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Reporter Tells Of Persian Gulf Rivalries, Hacked Emails And A Mueller Subpoena", "question_index": 33, "text": "The Saudi crown prince is really controversial right now. He's arrested a lot of business leaders, academic leaders. And he arrested them and put them in confinement at, what, the Ritz-Carlton in Saudi Arabia? And that might sound really posh, but some of the people there were actually physically abused. And also they've said - some of those leaders have said, that their money has been confiscated, their real estate has been confiscated. What's the story behind that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Saudi Arabia is an enormous purchaser of American weapons. When Trump visited Saudi Arabia last year, there was a bunch of big weapons purchases announced. When Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman was at"}
{"id": "597783188", "date": "2018-03-29", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Reporter Tells Of Persian Gulf Rivalries, Hacked Emails And A Mueller Subpoena", "question_index": 34, "text": "But he's getting some good press in the sense that he's trying to, you know, like, modernize and Westernize Saudi Arabia a bit, allowing women to drive, allowing - what? - like, movies - more movies to be shown. What are some of the things he's doing to try to make it a more open, less, you know, radically conservative country?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's just eye-popping. It's just one of those stories that blows my mind. So Saudi Arabia has been ruled for decades through a system of power sharing. There was a king, but he would spread around the"}
{"id": "597783188", "date": "2018-03-29", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Reporter Tells Of Persian Gulf Rivalries, Hacked Emails And A Mueller Subpoena", "question_index": 35, "text": "But doesn't - does that kind of modernization, liberalization give him political cover in the U.S.?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He - that's exactly right. He is - styles himself a modernizer, you know, a little bit in the model of the United Arab Emirates where he said, look, I don't have any time for political reforms or demo"}
{"id": "597783188", "date": "2018-03-29", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Reporter Tells Of Persian Gulf Rivalries, Hacked Emails And A Mueller Subpoena", "question_index": 36, "text": "Everybody's reading about, you know, like, oh, wow, women will be able to drive now in Saudi Arabia. That - that's real progress. But at the same time, there's this incredible political crackdown going on.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It sure seems to. It sure seems to."}
{"id": "597783188", "date": "2018-03-29", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Reporter Tells Of Persian Gulf Rivalries, Hacked Emails And A Mueller Subpoena", "question_index": 37, "text": "My guest is David Kirkpatrick, an international correspondent for The New York Times. We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, you could sort of choose your flavor. He certainly has the best possible advice about public relations. And I think that advice has been very effective. I mean, his message to the West i"}
{"id": "597783188", "date": "2018-03-29", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Reporter Tells Of Persian Gulf Rivalries, Hacked Emails And A Mueller Subpoena", "question_index": 38, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. My guest is David Kirkpatrick, an international correspondent for The New York Times. We've been talking about George Nader, a political adviser to the crown prince of the United Arab Emirates, and Elliott Broidy, a Republican fundraiser who owns a defense contracting business and tried to help Nader get his client - the crown prince - access to President Trump to push the UAE's political agenda. The UAE's geopolitical agenda is aligned with the Saudis' agenda. When we left off, we were talking about the new Saudi crown prince. So the crown prince of Saudi Arabia, who is 32, has a relationship with Jared Kushner. What do you know about their relationship?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, you could sort of choose your flavor. He certainly has the best possible advice about public relations. And I think that advice has been very effective. I mean, his message to the West i"}
{"id": "597783188", "date": "2018-03-29", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Reporter Tells Of Persian Gulf Rivalries, Hacked Emails And A Mueller Subpoena", "question_index": 39, "text": "So stepping back a bit, when we look at this story of how Nader, the adviser to the United Arab Emirates, worked with Elliott Broidy, the Republican fundraiser who had an in in the Trump administration, and they worked together to get the United Arab Emirates to try to influence Trump's policies in the Gulf in return for the promise of defense contracts for Broidy's company, does this story represent anything new in the way influence works in the White House? Do you think this is like standard operating procedure in presidencies, or is there something different going on here?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They clearly have a close relationship. And in one instance, it's raised a lot of questions. Last fall, in quick succession, the crown prince of Saudi Arabia held a big investment conference. Lots of "}
{"id": "597783188", "date": "2018-03-29", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Reporter Tells Of Persian Gulf Rivalries, Hacked Emails And A Mueller Subpoena", "question_index": 40, "text": "David Kirkpatrick, thank you so much for your reporting and for talking with us again. It's great to talk with you again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, to a certain extent, definitely fundraisers have been using their status as fundraisers to better their business and their status forever. I have to believe this is new and special. I go back to"}
{"id": "597783188", "date": "2018-03-29", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Reporter Tells Of Persian Gulf Rivalries, Hacked Emails And A Mueller Subpoena", "question_index": 41, "text": "David Kirkpatrick is a New York Times international correspondent based in London. If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, like our interview about President Trump's business deals in India and our interview with \"Daily Show\" correspondent Roy Wood Jr., check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a pleasure to be here."}
{"id": "597783188", "date": "2018-03-29", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Reporter Tells Of Persian Gulf Rivalries, Hacked Emails And A Mueller Subpoena", "question_index": 42, "text": "Fresh AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Mooj Zadie, Thea Chaloner and Seth Kelley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a pleasure to be here."}
{"id": "597972897", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "For Bill Hader, Sketch Comedy Sprung From A 'Need To Be Doing Something Creative'", "question_index": 0, "text": "That's Bill Hader as the announcer and as Alan Alda in that trailer from \"Saturday Night Live.\" So how did you start doing Alan Alda?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Alan Alda) You know, I love this whole Armageddon thing - you know, brimstone and hellfire. You know, just the other day, I strangled a guy for some flashlight batteries. (As character) Starring l"}
{"id": "597972897", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "For Bill Hader, Sketch Comedy Sprung From A 'Need To Be Doing Something Creative'", "question_index": 1, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But instead, I'm like, you know, I was watching \"Trouble In Paradise.\" I think I could get Herbert Marshall really well. And he - Lorne said someone who's alive and working now. You know..."}
{"id": "597972897", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "For Bill Hader, Sketch Comedy Sprung From A 'Need To Be Doing Something Creative'", "question_index": 2, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Alan Alda was, like, the closest - 'cause I'm like he's in \"Tower Heist.\" He's in \"Wanderlust.\" He's still working. He's Alan Alda. I mean, he's a national treasure, you know? That came from watchi"}
{"id": "597972897", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "For Bill Hader, Sketch Comedy Sprung From A 'Need To Be Doing Something Creative'", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that he's such a nice, gregarious guy and very complimentary. So yeah, that - and then one time, John Mulaney and I tried to write a thing with Alan Alda. I will - this was what it was called in t"}
{"id": "597972897", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "For Bill Hader, Sketch Comedy Sprung From A 'Need To Be Doing Something Creative'", "question_index": 4, "text": "So as we heard in the trailer for \"The Apocalypse,\" you - you know, you were the announcer. You do so many announcer voices. Were there announcers that you used to do impressions of as a kid or that you especially enjoyed or thought were great or ridiculous on TV?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know, crossing their legs and, like, digging in their pockets to check their cellphone. You know, you can actually hear it. Like, it was really bad."}
{"id": "597972897", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "For Bill Hader, Sketch Comedy Sprung From A 'Need To Be Doing Something Creative'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Yep", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, that's a really good question. I always grew up with people that I didn't know their names. Actually, you know what? Interestingly enough, Maya Rudolph - her husband is Paul Thomas Anderson, the f"}
{"id": "597972897", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "For Bill Hader, Sketch Comedy Sprung From A 'Need To Be Doing Something Creative'", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, that's a really good question. I always grew up with people that I didn't know their names. Actually, you know what? Interestingly enough, Maya Rudolph - her husband is Paul Thomas Anderson, the f"}
{"id": "597972897", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "For Bill Hader, Sketch Comedy Sprung From A 'Need To Be Doing Something Creative'", "question_index": 7, "text": "He was a horror TV host.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", like, I loved him."}
{"id": "597972897", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "For Bill Hader, Sketch Comedy Sprung From A 'Need To Be Doing Something Creative'", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah. And just being, like, kind of an overall geek for stuff, just started devouring all that - you know, just going in and, you know, finding all the, you know, Ernie Anderson stuff. And it wa"}
{"id": "597972897", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "For Bill Hader, Sketch Comedy Sprung From A 'Need To Be Doing Something Creative'", "question_index": 9, "text": "So in addition to all the announcers you do, you do a lot of game shows. Do you watch the Game Show Network...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It didn't really sound right. He could be the lead in the sketch, but he also could be the dad and - you know, it was Matt Foley's sketches where Chris Farley was the motivational speaker - he would b"}
{"id": "597972897", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "For Bill Hader, Sketch Comedy Sprung From A 'Need To Be Doing Something Creative'", "question_index": 10, "text": "...Just to get inspiration?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "597972897", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "For Bill Hader, Sketch Comedy Sprung From A 'Need To Be Doing Something Creative'", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't. Those - you know what the funny thing is? I will say Vince Blake, the one game show host - Simon Rich, Marika Sawyer and John Mulaney have written these game shows like What's That Name. I do"}
{"id": "597972897", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "For Bill Hader, Sketch Comedy Sprung From A 'Need To Be Doing Something Creative'", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then it's like, all right. Then - she starred in \"Pretty Woman.\" Julia Roberts. That's right. Twenty dollars for you. And then I go, all right, now, for $10 million..."}
{"id": "597972897", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "For Bill Hader, Sketch Comedy Sprung From A 'Need To Be Doing Something Creative'", "question_index": 13, "text": "What did you do for your \"Saturday Night Live\" audition?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, like, he couldn't remember anybody's name."}
{"id": "597972897", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "For Bill Hader, Sketch Comedy Sprung From A 'Need To Be Doing Something Creative'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Gregory Peck?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I played Vinny Vedecci, the Italian talk show host, doing impressions. So I did Vinny Vedecci doing Al Pacino, James Mason, Peter Falk - I can't remember. Oh..."}
{"id": "597972897", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "For Bill Hader, Sketch Comedy Sprung From A 'Need To Be Doing Something Creative'", "question_index": 15, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so, yeah, I did, you know, Tony Blair. And I had to come up with some bit for him, like, really fast, like, in my dressing room before I went out to audition. And I remember getting in the elevato"}
{"id": "597972897", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "For Bill Hader, Sketch Comedy Sprung From A 'Need To Be Doing Something Creative'", "question_index": 16, "text": "Oh, that's great. So you did Vinny Vedecci for your addition. And, you know, he's a character you've done on \"Saturday Night Live.\" And he hosts a talk show and, you know, has on celebrities. But you once did him - and this is on YouTube for anybody who wants to see it. You once did him at Garage Comedy, which is a comedy club, I assume. And you were introduced by the emcee as the replacement for a comic who had to cancel. And she said, the comic we're going to hear is actually our busboy, but he used to be Italy's top comic impressionist back in 1985.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And that was the first time we met. It was in that elevator."}
{"id": "597972897", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "For Bill Hader, Sketch Comedy Sprung From A 'Need To Be Doing Something Creative'", "question_index": 17, "text": "And then you come on stage and start, like, speaking in Italian or faux Italian.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "597972897", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "For Bill Hader, Sketch Comedy Sprung From A 'Need To Be Doing Something Creative'", "question_index": 18, "text": "Italian gibberish, yeah. And then - so you start doing your impression. So I'm going to play just, like, an excerpt of that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's Italian gibberish."}
{"id": "597972897", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "For Bill Hader, Sketch Comedy Sprung From A 'Need To Be Doing Something Creative'", "question_index": 19, "text": "So did the people in the audience know that you were Bill Hader, or did they really think that you were a busboy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Vinny Vedecci, imitating Italian)."}
{"id": "597972897", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "For Bill Hader, Sketch Comedy Sprung From A 'Need To Be Doing Something Creative'", "question_index": 20, "text": "And why were you doing it? I mean, were you testing something out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think a lot of them knew I was - I think they knew it was a bit that I was doing."}
{"id": "597972897", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "For Bill Hader, Sketch Comedy Sprung From A 'Need To Be Doing Something Creative'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That actually was before I was on \"SNL,\" I think."}
{"id": "597972897", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "For Bill Hader, Sketch Comedy Sprung From A 'Need To Be Doing Something Creative'", "question_index": 22, "text": "So what were the movies you watched with your family? Did you watch old movies on TV? Or did your parents, like, rent videos and screen movies for you that they thought that you'd love?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- plus with a bunch of New York people going, who are these guys from LA. 'Cause they all knew - look at all the \"SNL\" brasses here. Who are these people? Oddly enough, Bobby Moynihan was in the audie"}
{"id": "597972897", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "For Bill Hader, Sketch Comedy Sprung From A 'Need To Be Doing Something Creative'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Sure did.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. We - my family, we were a big movie family, even more so than television or books. Like, my grandparents - I grew - my grandparents lived next door to us when we were growing up, my mom's parent"}
{"id": "597972897", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "For Bill Hader, Sketch Comedy Sprung From A 'Need To Be Doing Something Creative'", "question_index": 24, "text": "I love that film.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was fantastic. And that movie was - just getting caught up in it. And one - a very clear memory I have is watching \"The Hunchback Of Notre Dame\" with Charles Laughton."}
{"id": "597972897", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "For Bill Hader, Sketch Comedy Sprung From A 'Need To Be Doing Something Creative'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Esmeralda.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Watching that movie and the scene where he swings down and saves..."}
{"id": "597972897", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "For Bill Hader, Sketch Comedy Sprung From A 'Need To Be Doing Something Creative'", "question_index": 26, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, Esmeralda. Who's the actor? It was Maureen O'Sullivan (ph)?"}
{"id": "597972897", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "For Bill Hader, Sketch Comedy Sprung From A 'Need To Be Doing Something Creative'", "question_index": 27, "text": "And then he climbs with her to the top of the Notre Dame Cathedral and holds her out to the, like, thousands of peasants who are", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, Maureen O'Sullivan, where he swings down and grabs her. And I just remember the way it's shot you see him way in the background, and then he kind of comes right into frame and picks her up. And "}
{"id": "597972897", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "For Bill Hader, Sketch Comedy Sprung From A 'Need To Be Doing Something Creative'", "question_index": 28, "text": ", like, storming the cathedral below. And he holds her up and he says, sanctuary, sanctuary.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, Maureen O'Sullivan, where he swings down and grabs her. And I just remember the way it's shot you see him way in the background, and then he kind of comes right into frame and picks her up. And "}
{"id": "597972897", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "For Bill Hader, Sketch Comedy Sprung From A 'Need To Be Doing Something Creative'", "question_index": 29, "text": "When I was growing up in New York \"Million Dollar Movie,\" which was on Channel 9 in New York, used to show the same movie over and over all week. And the next week it would be a different movie shown over and over and over. And one of the movies that they frequently showed for a whole week was \"The Hunchback Of Notre Dame.\" And so the first time I saw it, I thought it was, like, about a quarterback.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "597972897", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "For Bill Hader, Sketch Comedy Sprung From A 'Need To Be Doing Something Creative'", "question_index": 30, "text": "I was expecting it to be like a football movie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "597972897", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "For Bill Hader, Sketch Comedy Sprung From A 'Need To Be Doing Something Creative'", "question_index": 31, "text": "I was, like, too really young to know the difference.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, the hunchback..."}
{"id": "597972897", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "For Bill Hader, Sketch Comedy Sprung From A 'Need To Be Doing Something Creative'", "question_index": 32, "text": "I want to be in this game", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just let me play."}
{"id": "597972897", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "For Bill Hader, Sketch Comedy Sprung From A 'Need To Be Doing Something Creative'", "question_index": 33, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just let me play."}
{"id": "597972897", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "For Bill Hader, Sketch Comedy Sprung From A 'Need To Be Doing Something Creative'", "question_index": 34, "text": "So I was just - so I realized, OK, so it's not about, like, the quarterback of Notre Dame. It's, like, the hunchback of Notre Dame. But - you know, but I'll watch it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's the hunchback. We'll never let him play. We're Notre Dame. We're a big university. We're the Fighting Irish. We can't have a hunchback. It's like, just let him play, everybody. Sorry. Go ahead."}
{"id": "597972897", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "For Bill Hader, Sketch Comedy Sprung From A 'Need To Be Doing Something Creative'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Yeah, I'll watch. And then suddenly it's like they're crowning the king of fools and there's all these, like, you know, people trying to look like clowns. And suddenly you see the hunchback's face. And he's so deformed. And it was - I wasn't prepared for it. I was so frightened. And I made my family, like, turn off the television and put on \"Texas Rangers,\" \"Tales Of Texas Rangers\" (ph), instead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "597972897", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "For Bill Hader, Sketch Comedy Sprung From A 'Need To Be Doing Something Creative'", "question_index": 36, "text": "And then I used to, like, sneak a peek at it because it was so scary but thrilling. And then I'd watch the - and then I just like - I realized what a beautiful, beautiful film it is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "597972897", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "For Bill Hader, Sketch Comedy Sprung From A 'Need To Be Doing Something Creative'", "question_index": 37, "text": "Were you afraid the first time you saw it? Did it...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "597972897", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "For Bill Hader, Sketch Comedy Sprung From A 'Need To Be Doing Something Creative'", "question_index": 38, "text": "I want to thank you so much for joining with us. It's really been fun. Thanks for being with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "so that you're seeing - acting doesn't get better than this."}
{"id": "597972897", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "For Bill Hader, Sketch Comedy Sprung From A 'Need To Be Doing Something Creative'", "question_index": 39, "text": "Oh, it was so much fun.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a huge pleasure. No. Are you kidding? This is huge."}
{"id": "598253244", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Alyssa Mastromonaco", "title": "'I Basically Ran On Adrenaline': A Staffer Remembers Obama's White House", "question_index": 0, "text": "Alyssa Mastromonaco, welcome to FRESH AIR. So when President Obama came to the White House and you came with him, you were working on events. And you said - you know, and you had to, like, create and schedule events - that the Secret Service was especially unwilling to do anything remotely risky because President Obama was the first African-American president. Can you talk about some of the things surrounding that, surrounding what I imagine is all the threats against him? Because in addition to it being, like, an incredibly divisive atmosphere, as the first African-American president, there was so much racism that was being directed at him overtly or covertly. So how did that affect his ability to events and what it took to schedule, you know, events for him?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross. Our next guest today was part of President Obama's inner circle at the White House, but she isn't famous. In fact, in 2011, she was included"}
{"id": "598253244", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Alyssa Mastromonaco", "title": "'I Basically Ran On Adrenaline': A Staffer Remembers Obama's White House", "question_index": 1, "text": "So another thing that you had to do as deputy chief of staff is work with agencies like the Department of Defense to run classified construction projects and maintain the continuity of government exercises, exercises so that if there's a nuclear attack or if Washington floods or the president is incapacitated, everyone knows what to do.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So a couple of things. A lot of people, of course, compared us to President Clinton and how President Clinton got out more and he did these sort of sweeping, beautiful events on the, like, at the Gran"}
{"id": "598253244", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Alyssa Mastromonaco", "title": "'I Basically Ran On Adrenaline': A Staffer Remembers Obama's White House", "question_index": 2, "text": "Just mentally, emotionally, what was it like for you to be in charge of planning for the absolute worst?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "598253244", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Alyssa Mastromonaco", "title": "'I Basically Ran On Adrenaline': A Staffer Remembers Obama's White House", "question_index": 3, "text": "Can you tell us what your role was supposed to be in case of the worst, like, where you would be and what your job would be?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oddly, it was actually very reassuring when you sit down with the folks who, again, from administration to administration keep this process alive and have this information. You know, you sit down, and"}
{"id": "598253244", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Alyssa Mastromonaco", "title": "'I Basically Ran On Adrenaline': A Staffer Remembers Obama's White House", "question_index": 4, "text": "What was the closest you got to having to enact one of those plans?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If - I can't really talk about what my job would be - but in both - in a scenario of the president being incapacitated, say, he needed to have surgery, I sort of ran the process, the many steps of the"}
{"id": "598253244", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Alyssa Mastromonaco", "title": "'I Basically Ran On Adrenaline': A Staffer Remembers Obama's White House", "question_index": 5, "text": "Wow. If that was the worst", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Goodness. Oh, I would say it was when the president had his colonoscopy."}
{"id": "598253244", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Alyssa Mastromonaco", "title": "'I Basically Ran On Adrenaline': A Staffer Remembers Obama's White House", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Goodness. Oh, I would say it was when the president had his colonoscopy."}
{"id": "598253244", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Alyssa Mastromonaco", "title": "'I Basically Ran On Adrenaline': A Staffer Remembers Obama's White House", "question_index": 7, "text": "So you were preparing for, like, say it really doesn't go well...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Knock wood - yes, that is the worst I remember."}
{"id": "598253244", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Alyssa Mastromonaco", "title": "'I Basically Ran On Adrenaline': A Staffer Remembers Obama's White House", "question_index": 8, "text": "...Or just for that period when he's incapacitated...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "598253244", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Alyssa Mastromonaco", "title": "'I Basically Ran On Adrenaline': A Staffer Remembers Obama's White House", "question_index": 9, "text": "...Because he's under a light sedative.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just that period when he's..."}
{"id": "598253244", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Alyssa Mastromonaco", "title": "'I Basically Ran On Adrenaline': A Staffer Remembers Obama's White House", "question_index": 10, "text": "Right. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. And we figured this is a great time for us to, you know, go through all of the steps, and it was an interesting exercise."}
{"id": "598253244", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Alyssa Mastromonaco", "title": "'I Basically Ran On Adrenaline': A Staffer Remembers Obama's White House", "question_index": 11, "text": "So what did you have to do to get the president in and out of Iraq or Afghanistan which were, you know, war zones? And what is the secret service and weaponry like when you fly with the president into a war zone?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You feel very - you feel like you're in the, you know, \"The West Wing\" television show in those kind of - in those scenarios."}
{"id": "598253244", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Alyssa Mastromonaco", "title": "'I Basically Ran On Adrenaline': A Staffer Remembers Obama's White House", "question_index": 12, "text": "Is this the kind of thing that happened to you a lot when you were traveling abroad to Muslim countries where you were shut out in some way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's - there's a lot of it. You know, you have the counterassault team, of course. And usually when you're working with, you know, President Karzai's team, they're pretty - I mean, nobody wa"}
{"id": "598253244", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Alyssa Mastromonaco", "title": "'I Basically Ran On Adrenaline': A Staffer Remembers Obama's White House", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, not really, to be honest. When we went to - I'm trying to think. Most places were quite open. They know that you are an American and that you're a diplomat in this capacity. And so they're q"}
{"id": "598253244", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Alyssa Mastromonaco", "title": "'I Basically Ran On Adrenaline': A Staffer Remembers Obama's White House", "question_index": 14, "text": "So tell us about Air Force One.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's return to Terry's 2017 interview with Alyssa Mastromonaco. Her memoir about working in the inner circle at the White House titled \"Who Thought This Was A Good Idea?\" is now ou"}
{"id": "598253244", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Alyssa Mastromonaco", "title": "'I Basically Ran On Adrenaline': A Staffer Remembers Obama's White House", "question_index": 15, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Air Force One and the White House medical office are the two things that you miss the most when you leave. People talk about, you know, oh, Alyssa, like, uptown problems, you always flew on Air Force "}
{"id": "598253244", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Alyssa Mastromonaco", "title": "'I Basically Ran On Adrenaline': A Staffer Remembers Obama's White House", "question_index": 16, "text": "You had to sleep on the floor?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it's doubly hard. But no, it is - I will tell you that - and it's one of these things that when I watch the Trump folks, I just don't know if they feel the same way that we did. But getting on Air "}
{"id": "598253244", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Alyssa Mastromonaco", "title": "'I Basically Ran On Adrenaline': A Staffer Remembers Obama's White House", "question_index": 17, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. We would sleep on the floor. The seats didn't recline all the way, so they could be really uncomfortable. And so we would - a lot of us would sleep on the floor."}
{"id": "598253244", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Alyssa Mastromonaco", "title": "'I Basically Ran On Adrenaline': A Staffer Remembers Obama's White House", "question_index": 18, "text": "No, really. So - and now you have to fly coach?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "See, it's not that glamorous."}
{"id": "598253244", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Alyssa Mastromonaco", "title": "'I Basically Ran On Adrenaline': A Staffer Remembers Obama's White House", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "See, it's not that glamorous."}
{"id": "598253244", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Alyssa Mastromonaco", "title": "'I Basically Ran On Adrenaline': A Staffer Remembers Obama's White House", "question_index": 20, "text": "What a comedown.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do."}
{"id": "598253244", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Alyssa Mastromonaco", "title": "'I Basically Ran On Adrenaline': A Staffer Remembers Obama's White House", "question_index": 21, "text": "So what was the worst fiasco that you were involved with? This is assuming there was a fiasco.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a real bummer when you're in, like, boarding group D."}
{"id": "598253244", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Alyssa Mastromonaco", "title": "'I Basically Ran On Adrenaline': A Staffer Remembers Obama's White House", "question_index": 22, "text": "This could have started a conflict with the Chinese", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this one's sort of funny. It wasn't quite a fiasco but there was this period of time, I think it was in 2011, when that Icelandic volcano erupted and caused that plume that sort of circled the g"}
{"id": "598253244", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Alyssa Mastromonaco", "title": "'I Basically Ran On Adrenaline': A Staffer Remembers Obama's White House", "question_index": 23, "text": "because of American arrogance.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this one's sort of funny. It wasn't quite a fiasco but there was this period of time, I think it was in 2011, when that Icelandic volcano erupted and caused that plume that sort of circled the g"}
{"id": "598253244", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Alyssa Mastromonaco", "title": "'I Basically Ran On Adrenaline': A Staffer Remembers Obama's White House", "question_index": 24, "text": "Well, it's a huge responsibility to, you know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. But it worked out OK. We got home plume-free. But that plume wreaked havoc for months."}
{"id": "598253244", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Alyssa Mastromonaco", "title": "'I Basically Ran On Adrenaline': A Staffer Remembers Obama's White House", "question_index": 25, "text": "You can't be flying with the president if it's dangerous and the plane might go down, right? I mean, that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "598253244", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Alyssa Mastromonaco", "title": "'I Basically Ran On Adrenaline': A Staffer Remembers Obama's White House", "question_index": 26, "text": "...Would be bad.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That would really be bad."}
{"id": "598253244", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Alyssa Mastromonaco", "title": "'I Basically Ran On Adrenaline': A Staffer Remembers Obama's White House", "question_index": 27, "text": "Yeah, that would be bad.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That would really be bad."}
{"id": "598253244", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Alyssa Mastromonaco", "title": "'I Basically Ran On Adrenaline': A Staffer Remembers Obama's White House", "question_index": 28, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That would really be bad because as he would remind us, if that ever happened, it would be President Barack Obama and several unnamed staffers."}
{"id": "598253244", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Alyssa Mastromonaco", "title": "'I Basically Ran On Adrenaline': A Staffer Remembers Obama's White House", "question_index": 29, "text": "So one of your legacies - I underscore the importance of this, you know where I'm going", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We were like, we know, we know."}
{"id": "598253244", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Alyssa Mastromonaco", "title": "'I Basically Ran On Adrenaline': A Staffer Remembers Obama's White House", "question_index": 30, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We were like, we know, we know."}
{"id": "598253244", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Alyssa Mastromonaco", "title": "'I Basically Ran On Adrenaline': A Staffer Remembers Obama's White House", "question_index": 31, "text": "I'm going. You had a tampon machine installed in one of the ladies' rooms. And apparently there aren't many of them in the White House.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know. Go there."}
{"id": "598253244", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Alyssa Mastromonaco", "title": "'I Basically Ran On Adrenaline': A Staffer Remembers Obama's White House", "question_index": 32, "text": "Is there, like, an engraved placard next to it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. The White House, the West Wing, does not have as many bathrooms as I think any of us would have hoped. And the women's bathroom downstairs, which was near my first office, I think it was three st"}
{"id": "598253244", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Alyssa Mastromonaco", "title": "'I Basically Ran On Adrenaline': A Staffer Remembers Obama's White House", "question_index": 33, "text": "Right. So I thought this was really interesting. You had to get national security clearance for your job.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, there isn't, which is why I felt a need to write about it so I could hog all the credit in my book."}
{"id": "598253244", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Alyssa Mastromonaco", "title": "'I Basically Ran On Adrenaline': A Staffer Remembers Obama's White House", "question_index": 34, "text": "One of the questions you had to answer was a kind of detailed list of your drug use. And you'd smoked marijuana.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "598253244", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Alyssa Mastromonaco", "title": "'I Basically Ran On Adrenaline': A Staffer Remembers Obama's White House", "question_index": 35, "text": "You had to say how many times", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "598253244", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Alyssa Mastromonaco", "title": "'I Basically Ran On Adrenaline': A Staffer Remembers Obama's White House", "question_index": 36, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "598253244", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Alyssa Mastromonaco", "title": "'I Basically Ran On Adrenaline': A Staffer Remembers Obama's White House", "question_index": 37, "text": "Yeah. So you handled it by saying unknown. How did you come to the conclusion that that would be your answer, an unknown number of times?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. That was..."}
{"id": "598253244", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Alyssa Mastromonaco", "title": "'I Basically Ran On Adrenaline': A Staffer Remembers Obama's White House", "question_index": 38, "text": "You write that you had to get randomly drug tested almost every month. Is that because you'd said unknown or does everybody have to do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because - well, because I really feel strongly about not lying. And so when the FBI agent asked me for a number of times and she said, you know, 20? And I was like, no. She said, a hundred? I said, no"}
{"id": "598253244", "date": "2018-03-30", "guest": "Alyssa Mastromonaco", "title": "'I Basically Ran On Adrenaline': A Staffer Remembers Obama's White House", "question_index": 39, "text": "OK. It's been great to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "598811490", "date": "2018-04-02", "guest": "Michael Conrad", "title": "Remembering Groundbreaking Television Producer Steven Bochco", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. One of the most important TV producers of our time has died. Steven Bochco, the creator of \"Hill Street Blues,\" \"L.A. Law,\" \"Doogie Howser, M.D.\" and \"NYPD Blue,\" died yesterday of complications from cancer. He was 74. Our TV critic David Bianculli has an appreciation. After that, we'll hear the interview I recorded with Bochco in 1989.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "598811490", "date": "2018-04-02", "guest": "Michael Conrad", "title": "Remembering Groundbreaking Television Producer Steven Bochco", "question_index": 1, "text": "David Bianculli is the editor of the website TV Worth Watching. His latest book is \"The Platinum Age of Television: From I Love Lucy To The Walking Dead, How TV Became Terrific.\" Steven Bochco died yesterday. After we take a short break, we'll hear the interview I recorded with Bochco in 1989. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Taken together, \"Hill Street Blues\" and \"NYPD Blue\" completely changed the TV landscape. Very quickly, we got \"St. Elsewhere\" from Bruce Paltrow, who worked alongside Bochco at MTM Productions. And Bo"}
{"id": "598811490", "date": "2018-04-02", "guest": "Michael Conrad", "title": "Remembering Groundbreaking Television Producer Steven Bochco", "question_index": 2, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We are remembering Steven Bochco, the groundbreaking TV producer who created \"Hill Street Blues,\" \"L.A. Law,\" \"Doogie Howser, M.D.\" and \"NYPD Blue.\" I spoke with Bochco in 1989. \"Hill Street Blues\" was still on the air although he'd left the show. \"L.A. Law\" was going strong, and Bochco was about to premiere \"Doogie Howser, M.D.\"", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Taken together, \"Hill Street Blues\" and \"NYPD Blue\" completely changed the TV landscape. Very quickly, we got \"St. Elsewhere\" from Bruce Paltrow, who worked alongside Bochco at MTM Productions. And Bo"}
{"id": "598811490", "date": "2018-04-02", "guest": "Michael Conrad", "title": "Remembering Groundbreaking Television Producer Steven Bochco", "question_index": 3, "text": "You started in television at Universal when you were in your - what? - early 20s?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Taken together, \"Hill Street Blues\" and \"NYPD Blue\" completely changed the TV landscape. Very quickly, we got \"St. Elsewhere\" from Bruce Paltrow, who worked alongside Bochco at MTM Productions. And Bo"}
{"id": "598811490", "date": "2018-04-02", "guest": "Michael Conrad", "title": "Remembering Groundbreaking Television Producer Steven Bochco", "question_index": 4, "text": "In your early writing days, you ended up writing and doing rewrites on a lot of crime shows, including \"Colombo,\" \"Delvecchio,\" \"Name Of The Game,\" \"McMillan & Wife.\" How did you end up doing so many crime shows?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I was 22. I went there right out of Carnegie Tech in Pittsburgh."}
{"id": "598811490", "date": "2018-04-02", "guest": "Michael Conrad", "title": "Remembering Groundbreaking Television Producer Steven Bochco", "question_index": 5, "text": "When NBC approached you to write a crime series - the series that ended up as \"Hill Street Blues\" - were you anxious to do yet another crime show?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's about the only thing that was on TV in those days. And in fact, if you look at what's on television now in the dramatic form, you have very few shows that are outside the action-adventure"}
{"id": "598811490", "date": "2018-04-02", "guest": "Michael Conrad", "title": "Remembering Groundbreaking Television Producer Steven Bochco", "question_index": 6, "text": "As a veteran of cop shows, what did you know right off the bat that you wanted to do differently on Hill Street? What were some of the frustrations you faced in the formulas you had to work before?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not really. I had worked on so many cop shows over the years - as had Michael Kozoll, who I created \"Hill Street\" with. And between us, gosh, I guess we'd worked on a dozen or more of those shows."}
{"id": "598811490", "date": "2018-04-02", "guest": "Michael Conrad", "title": "Remembering Groundbreaking Television Producer Steven Bochco", "question_index": 7, "text": "You have the reputation for being the kind of producer who will put his job on the line if there's something you really want to fight about with the network or standards and practices. What's an example something you put your job on the line for in Hill Street?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think we approached Hill Street more from the things we knew we didn't want to do. We didn't have a clear idea of how we wanted to change the form. But we were very tired of the kind of standa"}
{"id": "598811490", "date": "2018-04-02", "guest": "Michael Conrad", "title": "Remembering Groundbreaking Television Producer Steven Bochco", "question_index": 8, "text": "Can you think of a specific?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh gosh. I seem to quit my job once or twice a year no matter what. And I get - it was is usually over something which in retrospect didn't really seem to have all that much importance but, at the tim"}
{"id": "598811490", "date": "2018-04-02", "guest": "Michael Conrad", "title": "Remembering Groundbreaking Television Producer Steven Bochco", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, gosh. There were so many of them. Gosh, I remember one time we had an episode where some elderly woman was having an affair. And her husband came home and caught them. And he chased the guy throug"}
{"id": "598811490", "date": "2018-04-02", "guest": "Michael Conrad", "title": "Remembering Groundbreaking Television Producer Steven Bochco", "question_index": 10, "text": "When you started \"L.A. Law\" after your experiences with \"Hill Street Blues\" - \"L.A. Law\" being another show in which there was an ensemble approach in terms of character and storyline - what were some of the experiences that you learned from \"Hill Street\" that you were able to apply there, experiences pertaining to how many storylines you could balance in the air at the same time, how many actors you can - you could make regulars without it becoming too cluttered or too confusing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They never objected to it on the page. So what happened was that we shot the scene. We didn't have close-ups, coverage of the various elements in the scene. So there it was. It was not exercisable fro"}
{"id": "598811490", "date": "2018-04-02", "guest": "Michael Conrad", "title": "Remembering Groundbreaking Television Producer Steven Bochco", "question_index": 11, "text": "Gosh, you know, I like your description about \"Hill Street\" being a show about keeping despair at arm's length. I bet that's not the way you pitched it to the network", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, \"L.A. Law\" has roughly the same number of regulars. I think there's a dozen regulars on \"L.A. Law.\" The tricky part with \"L.A. Law\" is that you can't fragment the storytelling quite the way you "}
{"id": "598811490", "date": "2018-04-02", "guest": "Michael Conrad", "title": "Remembering Groundbreaking Television Producer Steven Bochco", "question_index": 12, "text": ". I mean, it's usually the last thing they'd want on TV", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, \"L.A. Law\" has roughly the same number of regulars. I think there's a dozen regulars on \"L.A. Law.\" The tricky part with \"L.A. Law\" is that you can't fragment the storytelling quite the way you "}
{"id": "598811490", "date": "2018-04-02", "guest": "Michael Conrad", "title": "Remembering Groundbreaking Television Producer Steven Bochco", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, \"L.A. Law\" has roughly the same number of regulars. I think there's a dozen regulars on \"L.A. Law.\" The tricky part with \"L.A. Law\" is that you can't fragment the storytelling quite the way you "}
{"id": "598811490", "date": "2018-04-02", "guest": "Michael Conrad", "title": "Remembering Groundbreaking Television Producer Steven Bochco", "question_index": 14, "text": "Now, there was more action - more emphasis on action.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I tell you, we never pitched - we never pitched one - we never pitched \"Hill Street\" to the network at all. They sort of pitched us to do a cop show. I think what they thought they were going to"}
{"id": "598811490", "date": "2018-04-02", "guest": "Michael Conrad", "title": "Remembering Groundbreaking Television Producer Steven Bochco", "question_index": 15, "text": "Steven Bochco is my guest, the creator of \"Hill Street Blues,\" \"L.A. Law,\" \"Hooperman\" and a new series called \"Doogie Howser, M.D.\" This is the first show in your new contract with ABC which calls, I think, for the creation of 10 programs...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, inner-city action. There was some attempt in that movie to deal with the personal lives of some of those cops. I think that's what they were looking for. I hope we didn't disappoint them."}
{"id": "598811490", "date": "2018-04-02", "guest": "Michael Conrad", "title": "Remembering Groundbreaking Television Producer Steven Bochco", "question_index": 16, "text": "...Over the next decade. How are you going to be testing your ideas before you actually make an investment in them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "598811490", "date": "2018-04-02", "guest": "Michael Conrad", "title": "Remembering Groundbreaking Television Producer Steven Bochco", "question_index": 17, "text": "Well, I want to thank you very much for talking with us about television and your work. Thank you for your time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I never do. I don't know. I don't believe in testing. I resist always looking at any of the research that networks do on my shows either before they go on or even after they go on because I thin"}
{"id": "598811490", "date": "2018-04-02", "guest": "Michael Conrad", "title": "Remembering Groundbreaking Television Producer Steven Bochco", "question_index": 18, "text": "Steven Bochco, recorded in 1989. He died yesterday of complications from cancer. He was 74. After we take a short break, we'll hear from the author of a new book about the original so-called Siamese twins - conjoined twins from Siam, which is now Thailand, who were taken to the U.S. to perform in freak shows. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're welcome."}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Richard Rodgers and Oscar Hammerstein had one of the most successful musical partnerships of the 20th century, collaborating on the musicals \"Oklahoma!,\" \"Carousel,\" \"South Pacific,\" \"The King And I,\" \"Flower Drum Song,\" \"Cinderella\" and \"The Sound Of Music\" - musicals that continue to be revived. A new production of \"Carousel\" opens on Broadway this week. In the new book \"Something Wonderful: Rodgers And Hammerstein's Broadway Revolution,\" my guest Todd Purdum tells the story of their partnership. Purdum loves their music, but he's best known as a political reporter. He's now a contributing editor for Vanity Fair and senior writer for Politico. We're going to hear some Rodgers and Hammerstein cast recordings. Purdum also selected for us a couple of interview excerpts with Rodgers and Hammerstein that we'll hear later. Let's start with one of the Rodgers and Hammerstein songs that have had a long life beyond Broadway. This is Sarah Vaughan and Miles Davis. Doing their version of the song \"It Might As Well Be Spring,\" which Rodgers and Hammerstein wrote for the 1945 movie musical \"State Fair.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 1, "text": "Todd Purdum, welcome back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I'm as restless as a willow in a wind storm. I'm as jumpy as a puppet on a string. I'd say that I had spring fever, but I know it isn't spring."}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 2, "text": "So before there was a Rodgers and Hammerstein there was a Rodgers and Hart. Rodgers and Hart had a very long partnership. Hart's death officially ended their partnership. But it was already ending. So before we get to how Hammerstein entered the picture, why were things between Rodgers and Hart so rocky at the end?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a pleasure to be here."}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 3, "text": "So at the end of the Rodgers and Hart partnership, Rodgers was ready to kind of leave Hart if Hart didn't stop drinking. He even offered to go to a sanitarium with him. But what happened was Hart just died. So Rodgers then teamed up with Oscar Hammerstein. How did their relationship start?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they had been close friends and partners for more than two decades, Terry. But as you point out, as 1942 rolled around, Larry Hart was increasingly falling prey to a problem that had plagued him"}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 4, "text": "So because Rodgers and Hammerstein are such a famous pair now and their songs and their shows are so famous, we take it for granted that people always recognized what a great pairing this would be. But that's actually not what happened. Yeah, initially there was a lot of skepticism about them. And I want to play a clip that you suggested to us. And it's an interview from 1960 in which Tony Thomas is interviewing Richard Rodgers and asking why it was so hard to get \"Oklahoma!\" off the ground. SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they'd known each other for years. Oscar Hammerstein was a contemporary of Larry Hart's at Columbia University. And he had known - and of Richard Rodgers' older brother, Morty. And Rodgers had k"}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 5, "text": "So that was Richard Rodgers being interviewed in 1960. And my guest Todd Purdum is the author of the new book \"Something Wonderful: Rodgers And Hammerstein's Broadway Revolution.\" So \"Oklahoma!\" was considered a breakthrough. What made it a breakthrough?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. But nobody took that very seriously. These were two amateur songs that we wrote together for a college show. And there was almost superstitious feeling on the part of the people in the business, "}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 6, "text": "So \"Green Grow The Lilacs,\" the play that \"Oklahoma!\" was adapted from, was written in France by a 29-year-old gay cowboy turned poet and playwright who was from Oklahoma. And you say he was trying in that play to capture his nostalgic feelings about growing up in Oklahoma before it was a state. So Hammerstein worked the stage directions into his lyric for \"Oh, What A Beautiful Morning,\" which is one of the songs from \"Oklahoma!\" Would you read the stage directions? And then we'll hear the song. And we'll see how Hammerstein worked in the stage directions into the lyric.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, for one thing almost all musical comedies of that era opened with a big choral number to satisfy latecomers. The rustling playbills, they'd get them adjusted. They'd have a display of pulchritud"}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 7, "text": "OK. So do you want to say anything about how that was worked into \"Oh, What A Beautiful Morning\" before we hear the song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Here's what Lynn Riggs wrote in the stage directions to the prologue to the play. (Reading) It is a radiant summer morning several years ago. The kind of morning which enveloping the shapes of Earth, "}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 8, "text": "OK. So let's hear it. This is Alfred Drake from the original cast recording.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so Oscar Hammerstein took that kind of ripe passage of prose and turned it into the first poetry that he ever wrote to give to Richard Rodgers in the opening lyrics of \"Oh, What A Beautiful Morn"}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 9, "text": "That's from the original cast recording of Oklahoma. My guest Todd Purdum is a journalist who's written a new book about Rodgers and Hammerstein called \"Something Wonderful.\" And that - \"Something Wonderful\" was one of the songs from the Rodgers and Hammerstein show \"The King And I.\" So another thing about \"Oklahoma\" is that, you know, it's considered the first or maybe the second", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) There's bright golden haze on the meadow. There's a bright golden haze on the meadow. The corn is as high as an elephant's eye, and it looks like it's climbing clear up to the sky. Oh, what "}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 10, "text": "Broadway show that actually had a cast album, although cast albums weren't then what they are now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) There's bright golden haze on the meadow. There's a bright golden haze on the meadow. The corn is as high as an elephant's eye, and it looks like it's climbing clear up to the sky. Oh, what "}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 11, "text": "So Richard Rodgers had a different approach to writing songs with Hammerstein than he did with Hart. And he was asked about that in a 1960 interview with Tony Thomas. And we're going to play a short excerpt of that interview in which Rodgers talks about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, they were actually albums full of 78s and brown paper sleeves. But the genius of \"Oklahoma\" was that Decca Records decided to record the original cast, the original orchestrations. They put it out"}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 12, "text": "OK. So that was Richard Rodgers in 1960. Todd Purdum, what were some of the other differences that Rodgers faced writing with Hammerstein as opposed to with Larry Hart?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And that was logical enough. Oscar is one of the few people in the entire world who has a - I'm talking about lyric-wise, of course - who has a tremendous sense of construction. And without a tun"}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 13, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Todd Purdum. He's a journalist who's written a new book called \"Something Wonderful: Rodgers And Hammerstein's Broadway Revolution.\" We'll take a break, and then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, for one thing, Hammerstein's habits were extremely regular. He was just as predictable as Larry Hart was unpredictable. But he and Dick usually didn't work in the same room. Hammerstein usually "}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Todd Purdum, who you might know as a political journalist with Vanity Fair and with Politico. But now he's written a book about Rodgers and Hammerstein. It's called \"Something Wonderful.\" So a beautiful song from \"Carousel\" is \"If I Loved You.\" And Stephen Sondheim, who was mentored by Oscar Hammerstein - and Hammerstein was like a surrogate father for Sondheim - he called \"If I Loved You\" probably the singular, most important moment in the evolution of contemporary musicals. What does Sondheim think is so important about that song and how it's done in the show?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, for one thing, Hammerstein's habits were extremely regular. He was just as predictable as Larry Hart was unpredictable. But he and Dick usually didn't work in the same room. Hammerstein usually "}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 15, "text": "So let's hear an excerpt of \"If I Loved You\" from the original cast recording of \"Carousel.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in the show, \"If I Loved You\" is set in the middle of an extended scene of spoken dialogue, sung dialogue and the purely sung song. It's known as the bench scene. And it's when the hero of the s"}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 16, "text": "So that was \"If I Loved You\" from the original cast recording of \"Carousel.\" And we had Jan Clayton and John Raitt, who, in addition to being a famous Broadway singer, was Bonnie Raitt's father. So it's interesting to compare the original lyrics of that song with lyrics that were actually used. So I'm going to ask you to read some of the original lyrics, if you don't mind.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nothing. I know what it'd be like. It'd be awful. I can just see myself. (Singing) Kind of scrawny and pale, picking at my food and lovesick like any other guy. I'd throw away my sweater and dress up "}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 17, "text": "You want to compare that to the final lyric?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So in a way, Hammerstein's first attempt at a lyric was just as halting as the would-be lovers' own proclamations. (Reading) If I loved you, I would tremble every time you'd say my name. But I'd long "}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well it's certainly a testament to the benefit of a second draft. I told my children in writing this book..."}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 19, "text": "My guest is Todd Purdum, author of the new book \"Something Wonderful: Rodgers And Hammerstein's Broadway Revolution.\" We'll talk more and hear more music after a break. Right now let's hear a song Rodgers and Hammerstein wrote for \"Oklahoma,\" another song that's had a long afterlife. This is \"People Will Say We're In Love\" from the Ray Charles-Betty Carter album. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I showed some of these things to them, said, this is why you have to write your papers two or three times. You don't just go with the first inspiration. So at the end, what Oscar produced was this. If"}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross, back with Todd Purdum, author of the new book \"Something Wonderful: Rodgers And Hammerstein's Broadway Revolution.\" It's about their collaboration that gave us such enduring musicals as \"Oklahoma,\" \"Carousel,\" \"South Pacific,\" \"The King And I\" and \"The Sound Of Music.\" The female star of South Pacific was Mary Martin, who later starred in Rodgers and Hammerstein's \"The Sound Of Music.\" Why don't we hear Mary Martin singing the title song from \"The Sound Of Music.\" Do you want to say anything about how Rodgers and Hammerstein wrote this song before we hear it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Don't sigh and gaze at me. Your sighs are so like mine. Your eyes mustn't glow like mine. People will say we're in love."}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 21, "text": "OK. So here's Mary Martin.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One thing to keep in mind as you listen to Mary Martin sing this song is that she was almost 46 years old when the show opened. She was playing a young postulants. But the conventions of theater were "}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 22, "text": "That was Mary Martin from the original cast recording of \"Sound Of Music.\" My guest Todd Purdum is the author of the new book \"Something Wonderful: Rodgers And Hammerstein's Broadway Revolution.\" Boy, the songs in that show have such staying power. Just last night, as I was finishing reading your book, a commercial came on TV for Volvo that's using \"My Favorite Things\" as the music in the ad.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) The hills are alive with the sound of music, with songs they have sung for a thousand years. The hills fill my heart with the sound of music. My heart wants to sing every song it hears. My h"}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 23, "text": "So I don't know how you feel about this, but there's the people who think Hammerstein's lyrics are a little too sentimental and corny some of the time and those who don't. I'm kind of on the side of sometimes, they're a little too sentimental and corny. But apparently, Stephen Sondheim, who was mentored by Hammerstein, was like his son - he takes issue with some of Hammerstein's lyrics. Like, in \"Sound Of Music,\" which we just heard, the line, like a lark who is learning to prey. Sondheim hates that line", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, it's ubiquitous. It's part of the soundtrack of life. When you go to Disneyland, songs from \"Oklahoma,\" \"The Surrey With The Fringe On Top\" and \"Everything's Up To Date In Kansas City\" a"}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 24, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, it's ubiquitous. It's part of the soundtrack of life. When you go to Disneyland, songs from \"Oklahoma,\" \"The Surrey With The Fringe On Top\" and \"Everything's Up To Date In Kansas City\" a"}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 25, "text": "I mean, on the other hand, like, Billy Bigelow in \"Carousel,\" you know, hits his wife.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, Sondheim is under no illusions. He's thinks Oscar Hammerstein saved his life. And, you know, he once said that Oscar was a man of limited talent and infinite soul. And Richard Rodgers was a man of"}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 26, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Todd Purdum. He's a political reporter. But his new book is about Rodgers and Hammerstein. It's called \"Something Wonderful.\" We're going to take a short break, and then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's very uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable in the original play, \"Liliom.\" And it's uncomfortable in \"Carousel\" - that she could tell her daughter, yes, it's possible for someone to hit you and it no"}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 27, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Todd Purdum, who you might be familiar with as a political reporter. He's a contributing editor to Vanity Fair, a senior writer for Politico, former New York Times reporter. But he also writes about culture. And his new book is about the collaboration between Rodgers and Hammerstein. It's called \"Something Wonderful.\" We've been talking about Rodgers and Hammerstein's hit shows. They did have a few flops, including \"Allegro\" and a show called \"Pipe Dream\" that was based on John Steinbeck's \"Cannery Row.\" So this show - it's funny. Like, you write in your book that they turned down two opportunities for other shows...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's very uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable in the original play, \"Liliom.\" And it's uncomfortable in \"Carousel\" - that she could tell her daughter, yes, it's possible for someone to hit you and it no"}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 28, "text": "...To do \"Pipe Dream,\" which ended up being a huge flop. What did they turn down to produce this flop?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 29, "text": "Right. OK", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they turned down what eventually became \"My Fair Lady\" and what eventually became \"Fiddler On The Roof.\" So, you know, their batting average was not perfect."}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 30, "text": ". However - well, I'm going to play a great song for a minute - in a moment. But first, this is an interesting story because it's kind of set in a house of prostitution. Two of the characters are - one character is a madam. One character is a young girl who becomes a prostitute. I've never seen the show. I've only heard the cast recording. But apparently, this was not necessarily the perfect material for Oscar Hammerstein, who had a reputation as being a little prudish in his writing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they turned down what eventually became \"My Fair Lady\" and what eventually became \"Fiddler On The Roof.\" So, you know, their batting average was not perfect."}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 31, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, and Rodgers, too, in his own way. And John Steinbeck said at one point to Oscar, you've turned my prostitute into a visiting nurse."}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 32, "text": "Yeah. And there's a song - there's two songs I really love from it. But this one is called \"Everybody Has A Home But Me (ph).\" And in the original cast recording, it's sung by Judy Tyler, who'd played Princess Summerfall Winterspring on \"Howdy Doody.\" And I have to say, I was just listening back to the original cast recording last night. Her singing, with all due respect, isn't good on it, and she doesn't put across the song. Her pitch is kind of wavery. It's just not - you'd never know what a great song it is, in my opinion", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And the problem was that Rodgers and Hammerstein couldn't really quite bring themselves to make it clear that this was all happening in a whorehouse. They kind of cleaned it up, and it seemed a little"}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 33, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And the problem was that Rodgers and Hammerstein couldn't really quite bring themselves to make it clear that this was all happening in a whorehouse. They kind of cleaned it up, and it seemed a little"}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 34, "text": "However, when Encores did a revival of it just a few years ago, Laura Osnes sang this song. And she was recently in the revival of Rodgers and Hammerstein's \"Cinderella.\" She's got a beautiful voice, so let's hear her singing \"Everybody's Got A Home But Me.\" Will you set the scene for us about where this song fits into the show?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, and she's too brassy for the character. The character is supposed to have a vulnerability underneath. And I think that she sounds a little bit too much like, you know, a belter. And that diminis"}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 35, "text": "OK. Here's Laura Osnes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this young prostitute has just arrived in Monterey from San Francisco on a bumpy overnight bus ride. She's feeling pretty bedraggled. And she's trying to explain how she wound up where she is - "}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 36, "text": "That was Laura Osnes from the recent Encores revival of the Rodgers and Hammerstein flop", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I rode by a house with the windows lighted up, looking pretty as a Christmas tree. And I said to myself as I rode by myself, everybody's got a home but me. I rode by a house where the moon w"}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 37, "text": "\"Pipe Dream.\" So do you love that song, too, Todd?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I rode by a house with the windows lighted up, looking pretty as a Christmas tree. And I said to myself as I rode by myself, everybody's got a home but me. I rode by a house where the moon w"}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 38, "text": "Yeah. So how did they handle having such a big flop in which they lost their complete investment?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. When I first heard that song - I had never really known the score of \"Pipe Dream\" until I started to work on this book - I was overwhelmed with the beauty of the song. And I asked Ted Chapin, the"}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 39, "text": "I keep finding myself asking you more questions about Hammerstein than Rodgers. And I don't know whether that's because he was the writer, so there are kind of literal things to talk about, whereas music is more abstract, or whether he was the more visible personality than Rodgers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. For the first and only time, they invested their own money in the show, and they lost everything. They went on. The problem by the 19 - mid-1950s when \"Pipe Dream\" premiered was that they were so"}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 40, "text": "What was the relationship like - the friendship between Rodgers and Hammerstein?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So, you know, there are a lot of Hammerstein's lyrics quoted in the book. We don't have any musical notations quoting Rodgers' music. And I try to explain in certain places how his music did what it"}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 41, "text": "Do you think one of the reasons why each didn't know if they were liked by the other was that they worked long distance - with Hammerstein in Pennsylvania and Rodgers in New York? They weren't in the same room composing. They weren't even in the same state. So they didn't have that kind of direct partnership where, you know, every day or every week they're together in the same room working something out together - collaborating in real time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the thing that was most interest to me in doing the research for the book was to come to realize how they had tremendous professional respect for each other. They had terrific artistic collabo"}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 42, "text": "My guest is Todd Purdum. His new book about Rodgers and Hammerstein is called \"Something Wonderful.\" We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, no. It definitely wasn't the cinematic ideal of, you know, sitting around the piano and cranking something out together, you know. But I think part of the reason they worked long distance is bec"}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 43, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Todd Purdum. His new book \"Something Wonderful\" is about the collaboration between Richard Rodgers and Oscar Hammerstein. They had a 50-50 business relationship, and they formed a corporation under the advice from their manager or accountant. Can you tell us about their business partnership?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, no. It definitely wasn't the cinematic ideal of, you know, sitting around the piano and cranking something out together, you know. But I think part of the reason they worked long distance is bec"}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 44, "text": "So they were very savvy about that. But they - also people who they worked with weren't so happy with how they handled the business end. They kind of diminished other people's roles. Can you talk a little bit about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the important thing they decided to do from the very beginning was, whenever they could, to own their own work and to own it, in so far as they could, outright. Both had been in the theater for "}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 45, "text": "So I know you mostly as a political reporter from The New York Times in the past, from Vanity Fair, now Politico. So what are you doing writing a Rodgers and Hammerstein book?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "On the one hand, they were very loyal to the creative team that they worked with. They worked over and over again with the same orchestrator, the same vocal arranger, the same scenic designer. But man"}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 46, "text": "So the title of your book \"Something Wonderful,\" comes from the title of the song \"Something Wonderful,\" which is from \"The King And I,\" a show that we have not yet discussed in this interview. And \"Something Wonderful\" is a beautiful song. And I'll be honest - I don't love the original cast recording version of it. And I think it's sung by Dorothy Sarnoff.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Well, these are the songs I grew up with, the songs my parents played on a record player. My brothers and sisters - my brother and sister and I all grew up listening to this music. It's really been "}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 47, "text": "That's a terrible story. Why don't we hear \"Something Wonderful?\" Why don't we hear Ruthie Ann Miles' version of it and send this out to her with our sympathies and our best get-well wishes? Todd Purdum, it's been great to talk with you again. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, who later became a kind of speech and voice coach, helping people with, you know, corporate presentations. And she sings it in a very stentorian, declarative way. She had a beautiful soprano voic"}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 48, "text": "My thanks again to our guest Todd Purdum. His new book about Rodgers and Hammerstein is called \"Something Wonderful.\" We'll close today with a recording by the foremost avant-garde jazz pianist, Cecil Taylor. He died Thursday at the age of 89. Even Cecil Taylor liked Rodgers and Hammerstein. Here's his version of their song \"This Nearly Was Mine,\" written for the musical \"South Pacific.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) He will not always say what you would have him say. But now and then he'll say something wonderful. The thoughtless things he'll do will hurt and worry you. And all at once, he'll do somethi"}
{"id": "600818943", "date": "2018-04-09", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 49, "text": "Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll talk about the new film \"The Rider.\" It's the story of a young rodeo rider who lives on an Indian reservation in South Dakota. After a serious head injury, he's told to give up riding rodeo and training horses, the only life he knows. The film's star, Brady Jandreau, plays a slightly fictionalized version of himself. We'll talk with him and with the film's director. I hope you'll join us. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) He will not always say what you would have him say. But now and then he'll say something wonderful. The thoughtless things he'll do will hurt and worry you. And all at once, he'll do somethi"}
{"id": "601382482", "date": "2018-04-11", "guest": "Robert Kuttner", "title": "How Globalized Capitalism Drives Worldwide Fear And Discontentment", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today, a lot of people throughout the West are angry that the good life is being stolen from them, writes my guest Robert Kuttner. He says, quote, \"they're not quite sure whom to be angry at - immigrants, corporations, the government, politically correct liberals, the rich, the poor. The anger is unfocused but is increasingly articulated by a neo-fascist right,\" unquote. Kuttner sees a connection between the rise of right-wing populism and the fall of a social contract that helped broad groups of people in Western democracies. He thinks a fundamental driver of this discontent is globalized capitalism. Kuttner's new book is called \"Can Democracy Survive Global Capitalism?\" We're going to talk about his book and about the threat of a trade war with China. Kuttner is co-founder and co-editor of the publication The American Prospect where he also writes a column. And he's a professor of public policy at Brandeis University. Robert Kuttner, welcome back to FRESH AIR. So it's kind of interesting. The right and the left seem to maybe agree on one thing. They oppose globalism. Not everyone on the right, not everyone on the left, but there is a commonality there. Do they oppose it for the same reasons?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "601382482", "date": "2018-04-11", "guest": "Robert Kuttner", "title": "How Globalized Capitalism Drives Worldwide Fear And Discontentment", "question_index": 1, "text": "But can I just interrupt there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, they oppose it for very different reasons. The progressive critique of globalization is very simple. It is a critique of the use of a certain kind of globalization to dismantle what used to be a m"}
{"id": "601382482", "date": "2018-04-11", "guest": "Robert Kuttner", "title": "How Globalized Capitalism Drives Worldwide Fear And Discontentment", "question_index": 2, "text": "So you mean, for instance, outsourcing - that corporations could either move to a place where labor was cheaper, where there were no unions. Or they could just, like, outsource part of their operation to those other markets where labor was cheaper. And that undermined workers, like, for instance...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "601382482", "date": "2018-04-11", "guest": "Robert Kuttner", "title": "How Globalized Capitalism Drives Worldwide Fear And Discontentment", "question_index": 3, "text": "...In the United States. Is that what you're saying?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "601382482", "date": "2018-04-11", "guest": "Robert Kuttner", "title": "How Globalized Capitalism Drives Worldwide Fear And Discontentment", "question_index": 4, "text": "Is that part of what you're saying?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's..."}
{"id": "601382482", "date": "2018-04-11", "guest": "Robert Kuttner", "title": "How Globalized Capitalism Drives Worldwide Fear And Discontentment", "question_index": 5, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's..."}
{"id": "601382482", "date": "2018-04-11", "guest": "Robert Kuttner", "title": "How Globalized Capitalism Drives Worldwide Fear And Discontentment", "question_index": 6, "text": "OK, so that's the left critique, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's part of what I'm saying. I think the other really important part has to do with banks - that if you look at what caused the 2008 financial collapse, it was the completely promiscuous deregu"}
{"id": "601382482", "date": "2018-04-11", "guest": "Robert Kuttner", "title": "How Globalized Capitalism Drives Worldwide Fear And Discontentment", "question_index": 7, "text": "What's the right-wing critique?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep."}
{"id": "601382482", "date": "2018-04-11", "guest": "Robert Kuttner", "title": "How Globalized Capitalism Drives Worldwide Fear And Discontentment", "question_index": 8, "text": "So I think a great illustration of this clash between the left and the right critique of globalism is when Steve Bannon contacted you and suggested that you interview him, which you did. What did he think you and he would have in common in your view of globalism?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The right-wing critique is more crudely nationalistic. Immigrants are flooding our borders, and we don't like them. And the globalists - the people who are promoting globalization - are the same peopl"}
{"id": "601382482", "date": "2018-04-11", "guest": "Robert Kuttner", "title": "How Globalized Capitalism Drives Worldwide Fear And Discontentment", "question_index": 9, "text": "This was in August, by the way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He had read a column I had written the day before on China."}
{"id": "601382482", "date": "2018-04-11", "guest": "Robert Kuttner", "title": "How Globalized Capitalism Drives Worldwide Fear And Discontentment", "question_index": 10, "text": "Can you explain China's trade practices that are considered - in the West - to be unfair?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, last August. So Bannon had read a column I'd written on China which argued that even Trump, for all of his nationalism, was being very naive about China. And this was the story that Bannon had be"}
{"id": "601382482", "date": "2018-04-11", "guest": "Robert Kuttner", "title": "How Globalized Capitalism Drives Worldwide Fear And Discontentment", "question_index": 11, "text": "So there's also the Made in China 2025 campaign. What is that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "China has a whole development strategy that works very well for China. First thing it does is it subsidizes the creation of competitiveness in industry after industry after industry. The industries ar"}
{"id": "601382482", "date": "2018-04-11", "guest": "Robert Kuttner", "title": "How Globalized Capitalism Drives Worldwide Fear And Discontentment", "question_index": 12, "text": "So China joined the World Trade Organization in 2001. How has China's presence in the organization affected their economy and our economy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's an effort to have Chinese industry be even more dominant. And there's one interesting statistic here. China invests almost half of its GDP. A typical country invests maybe 15 percent of i"}
{"id": "601382482", "date": "2018-04-11", "guest": "Robert Kuttner", "title": "How Globalized Capitalism Drives Worldwide Fear And Discontentment", "question_index": 13, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Robert Kuttner. He's an economics journalist. He co-founded, co-edits and is a columnist for The American Prospect, and he's a professor of public policy at Brandeis. His new book is called \"Can Democracy Survive Global Capitalism?\" We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "By becoming a member of the World Trade Organization, China was able to export to the West much more freely, and China gets to have it both ways. On the one hand, it's treated as a developing country "}
{"id": "601382482", "date": "2018-04-11", "guest": "Robert Kuttner", "title": "How Globalized Capitalism Drives Worldwide Fear And Discontentment", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is Robert Kuttner. His new book is called \"Can Democracy Survive Global Capitalism?\" So we've been talking about how China has established an unfair playing field economically. So then the question is, what kind of leverage do we have against them? The leverage that President Trump is relying on right now is tariffs. He's proposing $150 billion of tariffs. How do tariffs address the problem of an unlevel playing field?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "By becoming a member of the World Trade Organization, China was able to export to the West much more freely, and China gets to have it both ways. On the one hand, it's treated as a developing country "}
{"id": "601382482", "date": "2018-04-11", "guest": "Robert Kuttner", "title": "How Globalized Capitalism Drives Worldwide Fear And Discontentment", "question_index": 15, "text": "One of the things China has been doing is buying Western companies. Can you give us an example of China doing that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they make it more expensive to purchase a product made in the country on which you are levying a tariff. So if a car costs $25,000 and you add a 100 percent tariff, the car suddenly costs $50,00"}
{"id": "601382482", "date": "2018-04-11", "guest": "Robert Kuttner", "title": "How Globalized Capitalism Drives Worldwide Fear And Discontentment", "question_index": 16, "text": "One of the things that China can do that democracies can't is move very quickly...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Until very recently, Chinese companies and, for that matter, the Chinese government were allowed to buy up anything they wanted to buy up unless there was a very narrowly defined national security rea"}
{"id": "601382482", "date": "2018-04-11", "guest": "Robert Kuttner", "title": "How Globalized Capitalism Drives Worldwide Fear And Discontentment", "question_index": 17, "text": "...On economic policy because it's an autocracy. And it's even more of one now because President Xi has declared that he can be president for as long as he wants.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "601382482", "date": "2018-04-11", "guest": "Robert Kuttner", "title": "How Globalized Capitalism Drives Worldwide Fear And Discontentment", "question_index": 18, "text": "So what kind of advantages does that give China?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "601382482", "date": "2018-04-11", "guest": "Robert Kuttner", "title": "How Globalized Capitalism Drives Worldwide Fear And Discontentment", "question_index": 19, "text": "In your book, you make connections between global capitalism and what's happening politically in countries in Western Europe, in Eastern Europe and in the United States. And you see a connection between the rise of global capitalism and the rise of the far-right. What is the connection that you see? And we're talking about the rise of the far-right, as I said, in Eastern Europe, Europe and, you say, in the United States.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It gives China a huge advantages for the reason you state. When the United States tries to change policy, Congress gets involved, both houses of Congress get involved, interest groups get to weigh in."}
{"id": "601382482", "date": "2018-04-11", "guest": "Robert Kuttner", "title": "How Globalized Capitalism Drives Worldwide Fear And Discontentment", "question_index": 20, "text": "Part of the goal of international trade cooperation after World War II is to try to prevent the rise of fascism again and to prevent another world war through economic cooperation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think you have to go back to what happened after World War II, which was a quite remarkable moment in history when laissez faire capitalism, which brought us the Great Depression, had obviously fail"}
{"id": "601382482", "date": "2018-04-11", "guest": "Robert Kuttner", "title": "How Globalized Capitalism Drives Worldwide Fear And Discontentment", "question_index": 21, "text": "My guest is Robert Kuttner, author of the new book \"Can Democracy Survive Global Capitalism?\" We'll talk more after a break. Book critic Maureen Corrigan will review Meg Wolitzer's new novel about two women who represent two generations of feminists. And jazz critic Kevin Whitehead will have a remembrance of pianist and composer Cecil Taylor, who died last week. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, but it was a form of economic cooperation and a form of - a restarting of normal commerce that was consistent with governments managing capitalism in a broad public interest. And so in the entire"}
{"id": "601382482", "date": "2018-04-11", "guest": "Robert Kuttner", "title": "How Globalized Capitalism Drives Worldwide Fear And Discontentment", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross back with Robert Kuttner, author of the new book \"Can Democracy Survive Global Capitalism?\" He's the co-founder and co-editor of The American Prospect, where he also writes a column. And he's a professor of public policy at Brandeis University. When we left off, we were talking about the connection he sees between global capitalism and the rise of the far-right in Europe and the U.S. So one thing that Europe, Eastern Europe and the U.S. seems to have in common when it comes to the far-right is a backlash against refugees. And that is being used politically by leaders on the right to activate their base. Do you see that as connected to the theme of your book, which is how the global economy has worked against democracy in some places?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, but it was a form of economic cooperation and a form of - a restarting of normal commerce that was consistent with governments managing capitalism in a broad public interest. And so in the entire"}
{"id": "601382482", "date": "2018-04-11", "guest": "Robert Kuttner", "title": "How Globalized Capitalism Drives Worldwide Fear And Discontentment", "question_index": 23, "text": "So let me move on to a different chapter here. The Congressional Budget Office reported this week that the national debt is expected to reach more than $33 trillion by 2028. I don't know if you know the answer to this, but how much of that estimate is because of the recent tax cuts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I do. And I think in both Europe and in the United States, politically centrist leaders who were trying to be enlightened made a huge blunder. If you want to open your doors generously to refugee"}
{"id": "601382482", "date": "2018-04-11", "guest": "Robert Kuttner", "title": "How Globalized Capitalism Drives Worldwide Fear And Discontentment", "question_index": 24, "text": "The House is going to vote on Thursday on a constitutional amendment to require balanced budgets. I realize that probably won't become a constitutional amendment, but is it the same people who were behind the tax cuts that now want to ask for a balanced budget amendment?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the reason tax cuts are $1.5 trillion over 10 years, supposedly some of that will be made up by increased economic growth, although there's no evidence for that. The Republicans have played this"}
{"id": "601382482", "date": "2018-04-11", "guest": "Robert Kuttner", "title": "How Globalized Capitalism Drives Worldwide Fear And Discontentment", "question_index": 25, "text": "So what does it mean to have a huge deficit? And do economists think that there's a kind of dividing line between like an OK deficit and a really problematic deficit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course. And it's complete inconsistency, some might say hypocrisy that one week you increase the amount that needs to be borrowed - which is to say the national debt - by $1.5 trillion, and then a "}
{"id": "601382482", "date": "2018-04-11", "guest": "Robert Kuttner", "title": "How Globalized Capitalism Drives Worldwide Fear And Discontentment", "question_index": 26, "text": "Of course", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, but economists disagree on where that dividing line is."}
{"id": "601382482", "date": "2018-04-11", "guest": "Robert Kuttner", "title": "How Globalized Capitalism Drives Worldwide Fear And Discontentment", "question_index": 27, "text": "yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, but economists disagree on where that dividing line is."}
{"id": "601382482", "date": "2018-04-11", "guest": "Robert Kuttner", "title": "How Globalized Capitalism Drives Worldwide Fear And Discontentment", "question_index": 28, "text": "So I want to get back to the conversation you had with Steve Bannon in mid-August of 2017, when he contacted you because he thought that you and he would share some kind of common base about globalism. But he kind of went on to discuss other things with you that made news. So would you give us a sense, like, experientially of what that conversation was like? First of all, tell us some of the more surprising things he said to you. And I'll preface this by saying he never said to you that it was off the record, so you assumed it was on the record and just published whatever you want to from the interview.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So after World War II, the debt-to-GDP ratio, which is the very important concept here, how big is the debt in relationship to the economy? It was 120-something percent, more than one year's total pro"}
{"id": "601382482", "date": "2018-04-11", "guest": "Robert Kuttner", "title": "How Globalized Capitalism Drives Worldwide Fear And Discontentment", "question_index": 29, "text": "When you interviewed Bannon, he said to you ethno-nationalism - it's losers. It's a fringe element. I think the media plays it up too much, and we got to help crush it. These guys are a collection of clowns. When you published what I just quoted, do you know what impact that had on Bannon?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I recorded the interview. And I realized about 10 minutes in that I was kind of onto the scoop of my life because Bannon had made a very surprising rookie error and had never bothered to put it "}
{"id": "601382482", "date": "2018-04-11", "guest": "Robert Kuttner", "title": "How Globalized Capitalism Drives Worldwide Fear And Discontentment", "question_index": 30, "text": "Well, Robert Kuttner, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. About a half-hour after that piece went live on The American Prospect website, I got a very angry call from Sarah Huckabee Sanders saying, I have Mr. Bannon here and he's extremely upset. And I s"}
{"id": "601382482", "date": "2018-04-11", "guest": "Robert Kuttner", "title": "How Globalized Capitalism Drives Worldwide Fear And Discontentment", "question_index": 31, "text": "Robert Kuttner's new book is called \"Can Democracy Survive Global Capitalism?\" After we take a short break, Maureen Corrigan will review Meg Wolitzer's new novel about a young feminist who meets a feminist icon and confronts their generational differences. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's always a pleasure, Terry. Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Jon Bon Jovi, welcome to FRESH AIR. It's a pleasure to have you here.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) This ain't a song for the broken-hearted. No silent prayer for the faith-departed. I ain't going to be just a face in the crowd. You're going to hear my voice when I shout it out loud. It's "}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 1, "text": "How do you prevent your voice from having been shredded after...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. It's nice to be here."}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 2, "text": "...So many years of concerts, particularly the stadium concerts where I imagine it's very tempting to over sing? Because even though you know you're amplified, the room is so big.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 3, "text": "You know, in the interviews for the book and the DVD, you talk about how you travel with steroids for your throat. And then you always convince yourself not to use them", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's true. It's like anything else. You know how to work the muscles properly. And like I said, there's a great physical commitment. And there are sacrifices that are made. And in the - the cute"}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's true. It's like anything else. You know how to work the muscles properly. And like I said, there's a great physical commitment. And there are sacrifices that are made. And in the - the cute"}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Exactly. Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's like that glass case. You know, it says break here in case of emergency."}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 6, "text": "Tell us a little bit about the neighborhood in New Jersey that you grew up in.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, there was a time when that was like M&M's. You know, you were just chewing on them to get through the night. And when I look back at the \"Slippery When Wet\" era - which is the point you brin"}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Now, correct me if I'm wrong about this. Your mother was a Playboy bunny.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a wonderful place. It was very working-class but middle-class. These were families who were - typically, both parents went to work. They were able to provide their kids all with shoes on their "}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 8, "text": "For how long?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct."}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Like, when you were growing up or before you were born?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, amongst other things."}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I was born. Yeah, I was born. I was a baby. I was probably 1 or so. But my folks met in the Marine Corps. My mother and father were both in the service."}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 11, "text": "And your father after leaving the Marines became a hairdresser.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "that's where it ended. She was just a waitress there."}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 12, "text": "For men or for women?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's correct. His father before him was a plumber, and he intended to follow in his father's footsteps. And like I said, before, you know, during Camelot, my folks came home and said, you know, I'm "}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Primarily women. And then in the - what was it? Let's see - sometime in the '70s when they became more unisex - hair salons - and movies like \"Shampoo\" came out, those are my memories of my dad with t"}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Not seducing all of his", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And driving in a - you know, in a cool car going to his beauty parlor."}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 15, "text": "- all of his clientele like Warren Beatty did.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And driving in a - you know, in a cool car going to his beauty parlor."}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 16, "text": "So of course everybody's going to be wondering now, is there a connection between your father being a hairdresser and your hair in the early Bon Jovi days?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You'll have to ask him. That would be another interview."}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I guess the connection would be that he's either to credit or to blame for the '80s - you know, because he certainly cut my hair. Yeah, and it's funny because when I grew up - see, the way you g"}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 18, "text": "So did he ever do your hair when you started performing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it was, you know - when you wanted to be in a rock \u2019n\u2019 roll band and you're emulating all of those guys in the '70s before - you think about, you know, Led Zeppelin and Aerosmith and those bands i"}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 19, "text": "So what was the first record that you bought?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He cut it probably until his retiring in '86-ish. Yeah. So yeah, some of those hairstyles that you saw at the height of \"Slippery When Wet,\" he would've been responsible for. Most definitely."}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yeah, sure do.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The first record that I bought - I don't know. Some of the early records that I remember having an impact on me were rather diverse. They could be everything from those K-tel compilations if you remem"}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 21, "text": "How well did you get to know them before you started recording?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Those when, you know, they would put together basically a cover band to cover what was very successful on AM radio at the time. Or some of the bigger brothers of the guys that I was hanging out wit"}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Wow, really? Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, Southside recorded maybe my second demo ever - would come back to my parents house for pasta, you know? So I was played - the first time that Bruce jumped onstage with me, I was probably 17..."}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Now, a few years ago, a CD was released of demos that you'd recorded at a recording studio that was co-owned by your cousin. And before we get to that story, I want to play one of those demos 'cause I think this one is just particularly, like, influenced by this Springsteen kind of sound. And...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview Terry Gross recorded with Jon Bon Jovi. He and his band are scheduled to be inducted into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame on Saturday."}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 24, "text": "...I don't know if you'll agree, but, I'm thinking of \"More Than We Bargained For.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wow."}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Only vaguely? You want to hear it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I vaguely remember that."}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 26, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 28, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I remember those bootleg demos that they released from there. Those are demos, yeah. They were pretty darn good demos for a 17, 18-year-old kid. They weren't good enough to get me a record d"}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 29, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And we were sort of, like, you know, the baby Muppets version of Southside Johnny and the Asbury Jukes because, you know, I was 18 years old and wanting to be Southside Johnny. I had a four- and five-"}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 30, "text": "Of course.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Someone else you know, who's already doing this, and you're a carbon copy of something, and it's going nowhere fast, it's time for me to quit my own band. And I did. And I went, and I joined someon"}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 31, "text": "Well, let's hear that demo that I was referring to.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, Capezios and tight blue jeans and that kind of thing. Just the idea that, OK, it's time to get out of this quick and start writing and move on because, you know, without it, I'd still be dow"}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 32, "text": "So this is \"More Than We Bargained For.\" And this is the one I said sounds very Springsteen influenced. So here it is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 33, "text": "So that's Jon Bon Jovi from a demo that he made back in the day. It was around...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I've always wanted what I couldn't have. I hope and dream that someday - that I'd find out what love is all about. I sure grew up tonight the hard way. Now the candy store's closed. The movi"}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 34, "text": "Yeah, OK. And those demos that he made before the band Bon Jovi are collected on a CD called \"The Power Station Years.\" And the Power Station is the name of this studio that your cousin Tony (ph) owned or still owns. I'm not sure which.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "1981, I think."}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Long since gone. OK. So when you were still in high school, I believe, or after you'd left high school, you worked there as a janitor. You - correct me whenever I make a mistake here - and also got to record demos in the studio, yes? Is that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it's long since gone - many, many years ago."}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 36, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. I met a man who was my second cousin. I didn't know him before."}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 37, "text": "How'd you meet him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So for a short window..."}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 38, "text": "And what did you do with the demos?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My dad. He was his cousin - again, much older than me, so there was no contact there. He came to see my band play. And he said, the band stinks, but the kid's pretty good. And he had a recording studi"}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 39, "text": "And what happened was that a local - a small, local station played your demo of \"Runaway,\" and that caught on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Shopped them. You know, it was very hard to keep an original band together in the early '80s because cover bands in New Jersey and New York and Long Island were making money. But playing your own stuf"}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 40, "text": "Wow. That's amazing, I can't believe that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is probably one of the keys to my luck and my success - is that they were so new that I was able to not only walk into the station but knock on the DJ's booth. And it's like a scene out of movie."}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 41, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He looked over his shoulder, and he saw a kid holding a cassette tape. And on a break, he came out, and he said, you know, who are you? What do you want? And I told him who I was and what I had. And h"}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 42, "text": "Now, you say in the interviews for the DVD and the book - you say you don't - you were talking about opening for other bands, like for Kiss and Judas Priest. And you say, you didn't want me opening for you because I'd do anything to upstage you - anything. I'd come flying off the ceilings. What would you do to upstage bands you were opening for?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's 2009 interview with Jon Bon Jovi, leader of the band Bon Jovi. He and the band are scheduled to be inducted Saturda"}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 43, "text": "Can you give me an example of what you did?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a term that some - Southside told me once. It's called headhunting. And John used to tell me the stories of he and the Jukes doing the same kinds of things and - the truth was is you had very lim"}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 44, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'll give you an example that happened a few years into our success. We were in what was then the Soviet Union, in Moscow, at Lenin Stadium. We were quite successful at this time. This was during the "}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 45, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Here's a song called, you know, \"Wanted Dead Or Alive.\" I think that's going to work. Well, guess what? It didn't work. So we got our booties kicked the first night because I had learned to rely on th"}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 46, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I wore it from top to bottom - hat, coat, gloves, pants, the whole 10 yards. And I walked down the center aisle of the stadium with a microphone in my pocket. And I took it out and I, more or less"}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 47, "text": "Well, let's hear another song and we'll hear one of those hits that didn't go over", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "....And boom. It - pyro went off that weren't meant to go off. And a guy in another big band turned around to the promoter of the show and punched him right in the nose. And he says, you planned this."}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 48, "text": "initially in the Soviet Union", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "....And boom. It - pyro went off that weren't meant to go off. And a guy in another big band turned around to the promoter of the show and punched him right in the nose. And he says, you planned this."}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 49, "text": ". And this is \"You Give Love A Bad Name\" which is so catchy. This was your first No. 1 single.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "....And boom. It - pyro went off that weren't meant to go off. And a guy in another big band turned around to the promoter of the show and punched him right in the nose. And he says, you planned this."}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 50, "text": "I don't know if that was a big surprise to you to be No. 1?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is."}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 51, "text": "OK. So this is Bon Jovi, \"You Give Love A Bad Name.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure. I mean, who do - look, being a kid, getting a record deal was as big as you ever dreamt. You know, like I say, I always reference John and the Jukes. Playing regionally at the time when that"}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 52, "text": "That's Bon Jovi's first No. 1 hit. My guest is Jon Bon Jovi. It's amazing, you know, when you first went on tour you were still living with your parents...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Shot through the heart and you're to blame. Darling, you give love a bad name. An angel's smile is what you sell. You promised me heaven, then put me through hell. Chains of love got a hold "}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 53, "text": "...As were a couple of the other guys in Bon Jovi. Was it odd being a kind of, like, rock rebel on stage and going home to the room you grew up in afterwards?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 54, "text": "Were you getting along with your parents then? Or were they trying to, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. You know, the truth of the matter is, like I said before, the dream of ever getting a record deal to begin with is an incredible feat. But then the idea of ever making a dollar doing it? That was "}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 55, "text": "Now, Bon Jovi hit it big during the video era - the rock video era when videos on MTV were really selling records. And you did your share of big videos. Did you enjoy doing those? I mean, having that kind of - I mean, it's clear, like, from what you were saying, that you had already known how to upstage the headliner and - but videos are different. Did you appreciate the opportunity to make those little films, or did you see them as an inconvenience that had to be tolerated?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That wasn't too hard to have, you know, your kid coming home and, you know, he makes records, and you know, so. And by that time, it was pretty easy, you know, and you came and went. Yeah, I really - "}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 56, "text": "Let's get in another song. And this is another one of your early hits, \"Livin' On A Prayer.\" Can you say something about writing this one?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2009 interview with Jon Bon Jovi. Saturday night in Cleveland, he and his band Bon Jovi are scheduled to be inducted into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame."}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 57, "text": "OK, so this is Bon Jovi \"Livin' On A Prayer.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I wanted to introduce storytelling. That was, I think, an important part of the growth was to start to tell stories about people and specific people. And because the song is a collaboration, it "}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 58, "text": "That's one of Bon Jovi's early hits, \"Livin' On A Prayer.\" My guest is Jon Bon Jovi. There was a period when it was a kind of rocky time for the band. The band split up for a while. And somewhere is - I think in that period, you basically asked a psychologist to intervene and - what? - help the band talk to each other. Is that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Tommy used to work on the docks, union's been on strike. He's down on his luck. It's tough - so tough. Gina works a diner all day. Working for her man, she brings home her pay for love - for"}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 59, "text": "Correct me. Go ahead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, let me - let me...."}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 60, "text": "It sounds like that was a frightening moment in the way you said that our kind of music was going away.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Just correct you, slightly. The band never - never broke up, nor had it ever threatened to really break up. But after our first four albums, which were really back to back to back to back and subse"}
{"id": "602128269", "date": "2018-04-13", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "Jon Bon Jovi Reflects On A Music Career That Surpassed His 'Wildest Dreams'", "question_index": 61, "text": "Well, Jon Bon Jovi, thank you so much for talking with us. It's been great to talk with you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It wasn't actually. I found it reassuring in that as a - I don't know - as an artist who's been around as long as I have and has been this successful for as long as we've been, genres of music come an"}
{"id": "603036983", "date": "2018-04-16", "guest": "Ari Shapiro", "title": "Former FBI Director Comey Discusses How He Views Trump's Conduct In New Book", "question_index": 0, "text": "A few days ago, President Trump gave Scooter Libby a full pardon. Libby had been Vice President Cheney's chief of staff. In 2007, Libby was convicted of perjury and obstruction of justice in connection with leaking the identity of a covert CIA agent Valerie Plame. And Plame said over the weekend, Trump is saying if you get in trouble, don't spill the beans. I'll take care of you. This is how the mafia works. So that's Valerie Plame's take on it that Trump is sending a message like if you get in trouble, don't spill the beans on me. I'll take care of you. You are the one who appointed the special prosecutor on that case. You appointed Patrick Fitzgerald. Do you think the president is also sending you a message that he's undoing some of your work, that he's putting a thumb in your eye by pardoning Scooter Libby? Do you take it personally at all?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Former FBI Director James Comey's book \"A Higher Loyalty\" comes out tomorrow. His tell-all memoir is not only about his interactions with President Trump. It's also about how he views the conduct of t"}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Brian Tyree Henry, co-stars in the Emmy Award-winning FX series \"Atlanta\" as Alfred Miles, who raps under the name Paper Boi. Thursday night's episode focuses on that character. The main characters are struggling to make money. When the first season started, Alfred was selling drugs for a living because rap was not paying off. His cousin Earnest, known as Earn, is played by Donald Glover, the creator of \"Atlanta.\" Earn dropped out of Princeton and was broke, so he became Alfred's manager, hoping it would pay off for both of them. But in season two, which is now underway, Alfred - Paper Boi - has become more successful and is being introduced to people with more experience and connections in the industry. But it's not a world he feels comfortable in. Like in this scene, when he's visiting a music streaming service and is asked to go in the studio and record a promo, which he does very reluctantly.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Brian Tyree Henry is also starring now on Broadway in \"Lobby Hero.\" He was in the original cast of \"The Book Of Mormon.\" Brian Tyree Henry, welcome to FRESH AIR. So I should mention, at the end of yesterday's show, when I was saying that you'd won an Emmy for \"This Is Us,\" I basically gave you an upgrade because you'd only gotten a nomination.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Alfred) This is Paper Boi. And you're tuned into the Fresh rap mix playlist. Long live Fresh, [expletive]."}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 2, "text": "So do you want to start the interview by thanking me for the upgrade?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You did."}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. I mean, you and the committee and everyone else who voted."}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm not going to go..."}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And run and take that from myself."}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 6, "text": "Well, I just want to say, you're so welcome.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So you know, thank you guys for jumping ahead for me and giving me an Emmy. That's great."}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 7, "text": "So I'm going to ask you to describe your character on Atlanta. And I'm wondering if you're going to do two descriptions or one. I'm wondering if you're going to do, like, an Alfred Miles description and a Paper Boi description, or if you see them as one and the same.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 8, "text": "But instead of being famous kind of paying off with, like, admiration and people wanting to, like, celebrate him, a lot of the people he meet, like, want to kind of, like, sponge off of him, or steal from him or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, you know, you are the very first person that has ever given me the chance to do that. Because any time that I talk about him, I only call him Alfred. I've never referred to him as Paper Boi. Like"}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 9, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, and you know what? That's like - that's kind of..."}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Use him in some way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, and you know what? That's like - that's kind of..."}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "..."}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 12, "text": "I want to play a scene from Season One. And this is a scene with a guy named Zan, who's a kind of, like, parasitic...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Can't really do that anymore because, A, he has gotten in trouble for those things. And B, he realizes that the important - he realizes what the importance of being Paper Boi is. Like, Paper Boi is"}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 13, "text": "...Wannabe social media star who's - who makes, like, mocking videos and memes of people who are better-known than he is and then takes these, like, ambush selfies with them. And after Paper Boi becomes Zan's target, and Zan does an online review of Paper Boi's recording, questioning, like, well, how authentic is he really? And does he really deal drugs? So Alfred becomes really fed up with all of us. And he tracks down Zan, finds that he's actually delivering pizzas for a living. And he gets into Zan's car, and they have this conversation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, Jesus - this guy."}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Alfred) Whatever, man."}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Yeah. But, you know, the whole question of authenticity. Like, what makes you a real reviewer, or a social media star or an authentic rapper? The question of authenticity is so kind of permeating our culture right now. And I just wonder, like, what does that word mean to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And there it is, I mean, in a nutshell. There we go."}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 16, "text": "Have you ever felt in the situation that Alfred's in - that you felt that you scared somebody at an ATM machine?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've been running up against this a lot lately, especially with the characters that I've been playing, because it's, like, Alfred made a good point. Like, he - like, rap is making the best out of a ba"}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 17, "text": "So the song that puts - the rap that puts Paper Boi on the map is called \"Paper Boi.\" And we hear it in the series, but it's actually not you doing it. It's done and it was written by Stephen Glover, who's one of the show's main writers. And Stephen is the brother of Donald Glover, \"Atlanta's\" creator and star. So how come you're not doing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God, all the time. Look, I went to Yale for drama school, drama. And, you know, like, it's in New Haven. And there's something about these Ivy League schools that you have an Ivy League school,"}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 18, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because I didn't have to. You know what I mean?"}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 19, "text": "So even though it's not you, let's just play some of \"Paper Boi\" so our audience can hear it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like, when people would ask me if I could rap - you know, the character calls to be a rapper. You know what I mean? Like, it says that he raps. And as an actor, I would like to believe that, yeah, man"}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 20, "text": "So that's \"Paper Boi.\" That's actually done by Stephen Glover on the series \"Atlanta.\" As you put it - even though you don't do the music yourself, you put your body to it", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Paper Boi, rapping) Paper Boi, Paper Boi - always about that paper, boy. If you ain't on your grind and you flexing, you's a hater, boy. Paper Boi, Paper Boi - always getting paper, boy. If you ai"}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 21, "text": ", as you said. So have you watched - I know you've seen a lot of rap over the years. You've seen a lot of performers. But when you knew you had this part, did you study them to see what movements you wanted to pick up on...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Paper Boi, rapping) Paper Boi, Paper Boi - always about that paper, boy. If you ain't on your grind and you flexing, you's a hater, boy. Paper Boi, Paper Boi - always getting paper, boy. If you ai"}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 22, "text": "...In that role?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Brian Tyree Henry, and he stars in the FX series \"Atlanta\" as Alfred, aka Paper Boi. That's his rap name. And this week's episode is going to be devoted to that character. And Henry is also starring in the Broadway show \"Lobby Hero.\" So we're going to take a short break, then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wanted to be so far removed from that because I think that every rapper, you know - even their names are ways that they want you to know them. It's not their birth names. It's not, you know - it's v"}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Brian Tyree Henry who co-stars in \"Atlanta\" - the FX series - as Alfred, aka Paper Boi. And he is also starring on Broadway in the show \"Lobby Hero.\" So we were talking about - earlier - how the rap recording of \"Paper Boi\" that's used in the series - that you don't actually do it - that Stephen Glover, one of the writers for the show, does it. But you actually have a terrific singing voice, as you demonstrated in an episode of \"This Is Us\" for which you were nominated for an Emmy Award. So, like, let's hear you sing, and then we'll talk.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wanted to be so far removed from that because I think that every rapper, you know - even their names are ways that they want you to know them. It's not their birth names. It's not, you know - it's v"}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 25, "text": "So that was Brian Tyree Henry singing in an episode of \"This Is Us\" in which he was a guest star. So you sound great. When did you start to sing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Ricky, singing) Mother, don't you cry. We're going to be all right. Open up your suitcase when you get there tonight. You're not alone. I'm always - always be here with you. So don't give up on me"}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 26, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. I guess since I was a little kid, but the recognition that I could sing didn't happen until high school. You know, like, you know, my parents had an amazing record collection growing up. I "}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know most people can't think back that far, but yeah, I remember hearing that, and I was like, whoa. Like, and then remembering what it was like to open the cover of it because, you know, vinyl, the"}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 28, "text": "And I know you lost your mother two years ago, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like, I love people who have no fear. You know, like, it's a fearlessness that I think is really cool. So I never considered myself a singer because I thought singing took discipline, you know what I "}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 29, "text": "My guest is Brian Tyree Henry. He plays Alfred aka Paper Boi in the FX series \"Atlanta,\" and he's starring on Broadway in \"Lobby Hero.\" We'll talk more after a break, and we'll listen back to my 1994 interview with former first lady Barbara Bush, who died yesterday. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, so I knew that that song was written at that time for a reason. I mean, I know it sounds really hippy-dippy but, you know, that was the first side - the fact that I'm about to expose my voice to"}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 30, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross back with Brian Tyree Henry. He co-stars in the FX series \"Atlanta\" as Alfred Miles, who raps under the name Paper Boi. Henry's also on Broadway starring in the Kenneth Lonergan play \"Lobby Hero.\" He was in the original production of \"The Book Of Mormon.\" He started performing in high school in show choir. What did you sing in show choir in high school?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, so I knew that that song was written at that time for a reason. I mean, I know it sounds really hippy-dippy but, you know, that was the first side - the fact that I'm about to expose my voice to"}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 31, "text": "So you were also in marching band in college.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So let me explain what show choir is exactly. So, in my town of Fayetteville, N.C., there is this group from the predominately black high school - well, the only black high school in Fayetteville - E."}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 32, "text": "So in high school, you're in show choir. You're in marching band. You love them both, spend a lot of time with them. You go to Morehouse, and you become a business major. So why were you - given your passion for music and probably for performing, why did you go into business?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I sure was."}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 33, "text": "So I want to get back to your formative years. So you had mentioned that your parents had a huge vinyl collection.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, because no one told me I could make a living out of that. There was nothing to showcase - to show me that that was something that I, a black boy from the South, could do. You know, like, also, t"}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 34, "text": "The problem with vinyl is that every scratch harms the music, and you had to be really careful when you're dealing with vinyl. So did your parents have parties, and were they very protective of their records when they did? Were they protective of their records against you when you were a child? And maybe you were going to, like, mishandle them or spill food on them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 35, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- like, my sisters would be bartenders, and I would be serving drinks. Like, I would take their empty martini glasses. I would take their empty Solo Cups or whatever it was. And yeah, like, that's wha"}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 36, "text": "Give us a sense of what's on your iPod now. Like, what do you listen to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm, like, not going to, like, mess these records up, you know what I mean? I wasn't that frivolous. So - and then it literally taught me how to care about music now because you should see me now with"}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 37, "text": "I'm not asking for the whole thing. I'm not asking for the whole thing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Didn't I just say that tell - giving you my iPod is like giving you my diary?"}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 38, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God. I mean, I'm not going to lie. I have Cardi B up there. I have mixed amongst - like, Broken Social Scene mixed in there with a little Barry White mixed in there with, you know, Rufus and Ch"}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 39, "text": "Do you mean, like, emotionally safe or physically safe?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is my - one of my - this is my favorite song. It's beautiful, and I'm going to play it, and you guys are going bob with it or you can leave the room. You know what I mean? I'm constantly in awe o"}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 40, "text": "You mentioned that, at one point, your mother sent you to live with your father after they'd separated, which surprised me only because I'd read how close you were with your mother. She died a couple of years ago. So I was just surprised to hear that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, all that, you know, because, you know, not to get too deep or personal in my life, but, like, you know, my house - it was hard to be in my house sometimes. I was in a house full of adults. You k"}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 41, "text": "Where you were living with her.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think she did that because she had to do that - you know what I mean? - like, because I - I mean, I was literally promoted from the sixth grade. I had done all of elementary school in D.C. It was..."}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 42, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "..."}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 43, "text": "So one more thing I want to ask you. I read that you have - I think - 11 nieces and nephews because you have...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So he's just always been old. But he's just always been an old guy, set in his ways - you know. But I'll tell you this, man. I really admire and love that man beyond anything in the world. And it was "}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 44, "text": "...Several older sisters. But I also read that you don't want to have children of your own. I am always interested in how people make their choice, when they make a choice, about whether to or not to have children. So if you are willing to talk about it, I'd...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So he's just always been old. But he's just always been an old guy, set in his ways - you know. But I'll tell you this, man. I really admire and love that man beyond anything in the world. And it was "}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 45, "text": "...Be really interested in how you've made your choice, at least so far.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 46, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, because, one, I was around these kids my entire life. Like, when my sister started having these kids, I was 7 years old. So I already was changing diapers, warming bottles. Like, and I - lik"}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 47, "text": "Oh, wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like, we are fertile, clearly. And, you know, like, the relationship I have with them in watching them grow up - because now I'm the great uncle to six nieces and nephews."}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 48, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "However, I just know that that's not my calling. I knew that that was not something I needed in my life. Now, here's the thing. I don't mind adopting. I don't mind fostering. I think about - those thi"}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 49, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "what I mean? Like, it's OK to not want children. I totally get it. My sisters kind of grill me about this. And they just kind of - they were just like, you would make such a good father. Oh, my god. I"}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 50, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK? Like, let's just stop it. And, you know - and I love that that they can say, see - they can still say that I make a good father without me having kids, so there we go."}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 51, "text": "Brian Tyree Henry, it's just been great to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There it is. So you know, like, it's - I'm doing the right thing. That's all that matters."}
{"id": "603444500", "date": "2018-04-18", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 52, "text": "Brian Tyree Henry plays Alfred, AKA Paper Boi, in the FX series \"Atlanta.\" Tomorrow night's episode focuses on his character. After we take a short break, we'll listen back to my 1994 interview with former first lady Barbara Bush. She died yesterday. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having me, absolutely."}
{"id": "604295204", "date": "2018-04-20", "guest": "Milos Forman", "title": "Remembering Milos Forman, Director Of 'One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Your mother was taken by the Gestapo after they came to search your house. What was it like? You were, I think, 7 years old or something?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My parents built a very small 50-room panzio - or little hotel, if you want - in the former Sudetenland, which was the part of Czechoslovakia which was taken over by the Nazis first - by the Germans f"}
{"id": "604295204", "date": "2018-04-20", "guest": "Milos Forman", "title": "Remembering Milos Forman, Director Of 'One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest'", "question_index": 1, "text": "So that's the last time you ever saw your mother?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "With mother I was 8 and a half, yeah. I was 8 and a half years old. I was sick that day, and I was - I had a fever. I had a flu. I was in bed. And I heard, you know, that - some voices downstairs beca"}
{"id": "604295204", "date": "2018-04-20", "guest": "Milos Forman", "title": "Remembering Milos Forman, Director Of 'One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest'", "question_index": 2, "text": "So what was it like for you to go through the rest of the war without parents?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Then we had a very, you know, sort of - it's - everything is such a paradox, you know. About a year later, suddenly we were allowed visits with our mother. Me, my brother and my uncle, my mother's"}
{"id": "604295204", "date": "2018-04-20", "guest": "Milos Forman", "title": "Remembering Milos Forman, Director Of 'One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest'", "question_index": 3, "text": "You didn't know they were going to die.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's another big paradox. You know, a child doesn't really perceive the tragedy like that, especially, you know, I probably would be much more stricken by grief if my parents died yesterday th"}
{"id": "604295204", "date": "2018-04-20", "guest": "Milos Forman", "title": "Remembering Milos Forman, Director Of 'One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest'", "question_index": 4, "text": "So you had family - extended family to bring you up, uncles...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So you don't know they are going to die. They are somewhere. And then one day, somebody tells you - in this case, it was my uncle - told me, listen, my sister, your mother, died. But in my daily life,"}
{"id": "604295204", "date": "2018-04-20", "guest": "Milos Forman", "title": "Remembering Milos Forman, Director Of 'One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest'", "question_index": 5, "text": "I want you to recall a specific day during the war, and this is a day that must have had special significance for you. It's the day that the Germans decreed that all the art houses had to close - the theater, the ballet, the orchestra, the movies. Were you already interested in the arts when that happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my relatives were taking care of me, yes."}
{"id": "604295204", "date": "2018-04-20", "guest": "Milos Forman", "title": "Remembering Milos Forman, Director Of 'One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest'", "question_index": 6, "text": "You ended up trying to go to theater school. You were rejected from theater school and ended up in film school, which I suppose was really lucky.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was very much - not interested, I was seduced because I was a child. Again, you know, I was 10 years old or 11 years old. And my brother, who is 12 years older than I am, he was like 23 years old, h"}
{"id": "604295204", "date": "2018-04-20", "guest": "Milos Forman", "title": "Remembering Milos Forman, Director Of 'One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest'", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was very much - not interested, I was seduced because I was a child. Again, you know, I was 10 years old or 11 years old. And my brother, who is 12 years older than I am, he was like 23 years old, h"}
{"id": "604295204", "date": "2018-04-20", "guest": "Milos Forman", "title": "Remembering Milos Forman, Director Of 'One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Lucky break. Yeah. Had you seen a lot of movies growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For me, definitely."}
{"id": "604295204", "date": "2018-04-20", "guest": "Milos Forman", "title": "Remembering Milos Forman, Director Of 'One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Milan Kundera, who wrote...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. In the film school. It was another paradox of communist society because it was the best school I could ever be going into. Because after the Communists took over, they purged from public life th"}
{"id": "604295204", "date": "2018-04-20", "guest": "Milos Forman", "title": "Remembering Milos Forman, Director Of 'One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yeah. Who wrote \"The Unbearable Lightness Of Being\" was one of your teachers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Milan Kundera was one of them."}
{"id": "604295204", "date": "2018-04-20", "guest": "Milos Forman", "title": "Remembering Milos Forman, Director Of 'One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest'", "question_index": 11, "text": "One of the things that you did - I think this is while you were in film school or just afterwards - you hosted what you describe as a sort of Czech, Socialist, Realist Thursday-night-at-the-movies show on TV. So what would you say to introduce a film? Do you remember any of the introductions you did?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. \"The Book Of Laughter And Forgetting,\" \"The Joke.\" You know, wonderful books."}
{"id": "604295204", "date": "2018-04-20", "guest": "Milos Forman", "title": "Remembering Milos Forman, Director Of 'One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Did you believe any of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All the introductions had to - you know, I was always trying to show on the television films which had some, you know, which were not just the propaganda films. But then of course you had to present t"}
{"id": "604295204", "date": "2018-04-20", "guest": "Milos Forman", "title": "Remembering Milos Forman, Director Of 'One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest'", "question_index": 13, "text": "When you started writing and directing movies, did you have to avoid what government officials would have defined as bourgeois subject matter?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course not. Because everybody knew it's nonsense. It's a game. It's a game, you know?"}
{"id": "604295204", "date": "2018-04-20", "guest": "Milos Forman", "title": "Remembering Milos Forman, Director Of 'One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest'", "question_index": 14, "text": "One of the best known of your Czechoslovakian films was \"Firemen's Ball,\" and this was a comedy. And in the version that's in circulation now, I don't know when you put this part in. I mean, I know you put it in in the late '60s. The film opens with you in front of the camera explaining that, first of all, \"Firemen's Ball\" was released just before the Dubcek leadership took over and that the film had a very surprising reaction. Forty-thousand resigned in protest against this film.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was lucky because for some reasons, they think - you know, my first films were comedies, basically, films in Czechoslovakia. And they perceive comedies as something not as important. Something light"}
{"id": "604295204", "date": "2018-04-20", "guest": "Milos Forman", "title": "Remembering Milos Forman, Director Of 'One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Why was it banned? You said comedies weren't considered as dangerous. This is a comedy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they were ordered to resign. This film, it was banned. This film was banned right away when it was finished, and it was banned officially for eternity."}
{"id": "604295204", "date": "2018-04-20", "guest": "Milos Forman", "title": "Remembering Milos Forman, Director Of 'One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest'", "question_index": 16, "text": "Were there any fires that you were accused of being personally responsible for, and did you feel responsible for any of it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they thought it's a metaphor on the politburo and the Communist Party. You know, that Firemen's Ball committee, right, that it's a metaphor for the whole leadership of the country. So they banne"}
{"id": "604295204", "date": "2018-04-20", "guest": "Milos Forman", "title": "Remembering Milos Forman, Director Of 'One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest'", "question_index": 17, "text": "They didn't really go on strike?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no. They didn't go on strike."}
{"id": "604295204", "date": "2018-04-20", "guest": "Milos Forman", "title": "Remembering Milos Forman, Director Of 'One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest'", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They provoked this threat so that the government can say that they have a right to ban the film. So when the government banned the film, the firemen said, all right. So now we know."}
{"id": "604295204", "date": "2018-04-20", "guest": "Milos Forman", "title": "Remembering Milos Forman, Director Of 'One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest'", "question_index": 19, "text": "The second film you made in the United States, \"One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest,\" is one of your most famous films. It got a bunch of Academy Awards. You keep stressing the absurdity of stories that surrounded life under communism in Czechoslovakia, and you found out that you had been sent a copy of the novel \"One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest\" years before you actually made the movie, but you never got it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Nurse Ratched) It's all right, Nurse Pilbow. If Mr. McMurphy doesn't want to take his medication orally, I'm sure we can arrange that he can have it some other way. But I don't think you'd like it"}
{"id": "604295204", "date": "2018-04-20", "guest": "Milos Forman", "title": "Remembering Milos Forman, Director Of 'One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest'", "question_index": 20, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there was Kirk Douglas, who bought the rights for the book, you know, when it was - even before it was published. And he loved the book, and he wanted to make a movie but never succeeded to get "}
{"id": "604295204", "date": "2018-04-20", "guest": "Milos Forman", "title": "Remembering Milos Forman, Director Of 'One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest'", "question_index": 21, "text": "So did Michael Douglas, when he sent you the book, did he know that his father had sent it to you 10 years before?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And the moment he left the room, he already forgot. OK. Ten years later, I'm over here in the United States and I get a book in an envelope sent by the producers and Michael Douglas, Kirk Douglas' "}
{"id": "604295204", "date": "2018-04-20", "guest": "Milos Forman", "title": "Remembering Milos Forman, Director Of 'One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest'", "question_index": 22, "text": "You've said that one of the reasons why you were interested in the movie is because you're interested in freedom of expression. And you lived under two totalitarian regimes growing up in Czechoslovakia, first the Nazis and then the communists. And I'm wondering if some of Larry Flynt's uses of the right to free speech seemed trivial to you, both the pornography and things like nude photographs of Jackie Onassis. Having been deprived of free speech, did this seem like such a trivial way of taking advantage of it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Larry Flynt) Alan, don't be so melodramatic. You don't want to quit me. I'm your dream client. I'm the most fun. I'm rich. And I'm always in trouble."}
{"id": "604295204", "date": "2018-04-20", "guest": "Milos Forman", "title": "Remembering Milos Forman, Director Of 'One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Was there pornography when you were growing up in Czechoslovakia?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. There's a lot of trivial things in what the - Larry Flynt is doing. And there is a lot of, you know, tasteless things in which - what he's doing. But, you know, freedom of the speech is much bigg"}
{"id": "604295204", "date": "2018-04-20", "guest": "Milos Forman", "title": "Remembering Milos Forman, Director Of 'One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Now, you have Larry Flynt playing a judge in Cincinnati who sentences Larry Flynt to 25 years in an obscenity case. Did Larry Flynt ask to play that part?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were as rampant as always before and always after, you know."}
{"id": "604295204", "date": "2018-04-20", "guest": "Milos Forman", "title": "Remembering Milos Forman, Director Of 'One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest'", "question_index": 25, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No, I was just joking one day. And I - you know, I had a kick to say, little Larry, do you want to sentence yourself to 25 years in prison? And he laughed and said, (imitating Larry Flynt) oh, why"}
{"id": "604295204", "date": "2018-04-20", "guest": "Milos Forman", "title": "Remembering Milos Forman, Director Of 'One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest'", "question_index": 26, "text": "Something I read that you said about pornography, you've said that pornography - that you were brought up in an environment where pornography was considered bad. And you've never shaken that attitude about pornography, and you also feel especially uncomfortable if someone sees you while you're looking at pornography. And I'd like you to explain why", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So he's there. And we all had a - you know, it brought some kind of a wonderful feeling, an atmosphere on the set, because, you know, everybody had a kick out of it."}
{"id": "604295204", "date": "2018-04-20", "guest": "Milos Forman", "title": "Remembering Milos Forman, Director Of 'One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest'", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So he's there. And we all had a - you know, it brought some kind of a wonderful feeling, an atmosphere on the set, because, you know, everybody had a kick out of it."}
{"id": "604295204", "date": "2018-04-20", "guest": "Milos Forman", "title": "Remembering Milos Forman, Director Of 'One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest'", "question_index": 28, "text": "You could tell me if this is too personal, OK? You grew up during World War II. Your parents were both killed in concentration camps in Czechoslovakia. So you were on your own by the time you were 8, I think. How did you learn about the facts of life without a family?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it is something to do with my upbringing, I guess. You know? Because I am from a - I was born in a small town. My parents, my father was a teacher. My mother was a housewife. I don't really know"}
{"id": "604311802", "date": "2018-04-20", "guest": "Harry Anderson", "title": "Before He Became The 'Night Court' Judge, Harry Anderson Was A Con-Man Magician", "question_index": 0, "text": "They must have thought you were psychotic.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What you do is you buy a phony hand at the magic shop. And you get a loaf of French bread. And you hollow out one end of the French bread. And you stick the phony hand in there. It's, you know, a bagu"}
{"id": "604311802", "date": "2018-04-20", "guest": "Harry Anderson", "title": "Before He Became The 'Night Court' Judge, Harry Anderson Was A Con-Man Magician", "question_index": 1, "text": "Did you ever run real swindles before it actually became an act?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they were waiting to see \"Jaws.\" I mean, I thought I was playing the crowd. They didn't throw a lot of money at me, no."}
{"id": "604311802", "date": "2018-04-20", "guest": "Harry Anderson", "title": "Before He Became The 'Night Court' Judge, Harry Anderson Was A Con-Man Magician", "question_index": 2, "text": "So how did you learn to pick locks and run a shell game?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Did I run real swindles? Oh, yeah. I mean, I started as a - on the street. I did not begin as a performer. I began running the shell game. And again, another experience with a dissatisfied customer wh"}
{"id": "604311802", "date": "2018-04-20", "guest": "Harry Anderson", "title": "Before He Became The 'Night Court' Judge, Harry Anderson Was A Con-Man Magician", "question_index": 3, "text": "So you learned how to do shell games. You also learned how to pick locks. Did you use that to rob people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was the stuff that fascinated me. When I was a kid in Chicago, I hung around a place called the Ambassador Hotel. And they had a room there called the pump room. And that's where the old guys"}
{"id": "604311802", "date": "2018-04-20", "guest": "Harry Anderson", "title": "Before He Became The 'Night Court' Judge, Harry Anderson Was A Con-Man Magician", "question_index": 4, "text": "What was your rap when you were running the shell game?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no. No, I didn't. Really, my only run-ins with the law were over hustling on the street. I did get - I did get busted once in New Orleans for a couple of nights for - and the irony was that that w"}
{"id": "604311802", "date": "2018-04-20", "guest": "Harry Anderson", "title": "Before He Became The 'Night Court' Judge, Harry Anderson Was A Con-Man Magician", "question_index": 5, "text": "So how were you discovered after playing the streets and then playing casinos? How did you make it onto television?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Little game of hanky poo, two for me and one for you. Hey diddle diddle, it's the one in the middle. Which one is it now? And on and on as the game required."}
{"id": "604311802", "date": "2018-04-20", "guest": "Harry Anderson", "title": "Before He Became The 'Night Court' Judge, Harry Anderson Was A Con-Man Magician", "question_index": 6, "text": "Do you think of yourself as having used any cons to get your role on \"Night Court?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it all happened kind of quick. I was in town with my wife. She was raised in Los Angeles. And we were in town visiting her folks and playing the Magic Castle, which is a night club for magicians"}
{"id": "604311802", "date": "2018-04-20", "guest": "Harry Anderson", "title": "Before He Became The 'Night Court' Judge, Harry Anderson Was A Con-Man Magician", "question_index": 7, "text": "I've got one last question for you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I - based on that story I'd say that's exactly how I did it. I mean, it was a little inadvertent, but it was by playing a con man. I mean, I hadn't acted. I hadn't taken lessons, and I hadn't au"}
{"id": "604311802", "date": "2018-04-20", "guest": "Harry Anderson", "title": "Before He Became The 'Night Court' Judge, Harry Anderson Was A Con-Man Magician", "question_index": 8, "text": "OK. Now that you're...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What?"}
{"id": "604311802", "date": "2018-04-20", "guest": "Harry Anderson", "title": "Before He Became The 'Night Court' Judge, Harry Anderson Was A Con-Man Magician", "question_index": 9, "text": "Now that you're really recognizable because all of your work on television...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What are you, a cop? You got a lot of questions. You know that?"}
{"id": "604311802", "date": "2018-04-20", "guest": "Harry Anderson", "title": "Before He Became The 'Night Court' Judge, Harry Anderson Was A Con-Man Magician", "question_index": 10, "text": "...Does this mean that you can't take a train and play cards anymore? I mean, you couldn't even have fun running a game somewhere.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "604311802", "date": "2018-04-20", "guest": "Harry Anderson", "title": "Before He Became The 'Night Court' Judge, Harry Anderson Was A Con-Man Magician", "question_index": 11, "text": "Do you miss being able to run a good card game?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, that's one of the things I really miss. I used to make my living by understanding people. And the way I learned to understand them was by observing them. I would sit in a train station or a "}
{"id": "604311802", "date": "2018-04-20", "guest": "Harry Anderson", "title": "Before He Became The 'Night Court' Judge, Harry Anderson Was A Con-Man Magician", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, Harry Anderson, I want to thank you a lot for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I still play cards. You know, but now I cheat my wife at cards, you know, with no money. I just - now she's going to hear this, and she's never going to play cards with me again."}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Thirteen thousand people were fired by President Reagan when he broke up the air traffic controllers union after they went out on strike in 1981. One of the people who lost his job was the father of my guest Gregory Pardlo. How that changed Pardlo's life and his father's is just part of what Pardlo writes about in his new book \"Air Traffic: A Memoir Of Ambition And Manhood In America.\" Pardlo won the 2015 Pulitzer Prize for Poetry. Getting there wasn't easy. There were periods when his family struggled financially. He joined the Marine Reserves, hoping it would help him with college tuition. But as soon as he got to boot camp, he tried to get out. He used to drink too much. His family was on the A&E reality show \"Intervention,\" which brings family members together to organize an intervention for their family member who is addicted. The intervention wasn't for Pardlo. It was for his brother. Pardlo now lives in Brooklyn with his wife and two children. He teaches at Rutgers University-Camden. Gregory Pardlo, welcome to FRESH AIR. I really love your new memoir. And I'm going to ask you to read the first paragraph from it.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 1, "text": "So your father died in 2016 while you were finishing your book. But the book begins with your father's death. So that's obviously a change you made to your book after he died. And really you're starting you're starting your book by pointing your finger at your father and saying this is how he died - kind of a screw-up, getting in debt, taking advantage of things, you know, taking advantage of his credit, of your family. G.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My pleasure. The title is \"Route 66.\" (Reading) By some concoction of sugar, nicotine, prescription painkillers, rancor and cocaine, my father, Gregory Pardlo Sr., began killing himself after my paren"}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 2, "text": "Yeah, your family's goodwill. So it's a kind of angry way to start a book that your father... G.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, the goodwill."}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 3, "text": "...Figures prominently in. And I'm curious. So many books don't start with like, my mother died, and I was so sad. I'll never recover.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think you're..."}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 4, "text": "And, like, this is a different start. G.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think you're..."}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Like a lot of children, you were the result of an unplanned pregnancy. Your mother was 21, your father 19. They married after she got pregnant. And you think your father didn't want to have a child, at least not at that point in his life, and that he felt like your birth prevented him from doing some things he wanted to do. Did he ever say that up front? Or what led you to feel that way? G.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think you're absolutely right that there's some anger in - well, there was considerable anger, to be honest. After he passed, I found myself feeling a lot of the feelings that I wouldn't allow"}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 6, "text": "So this is a very personal question to ask at the start of an interview. But did you ever feel like saying to your father, if you didn't want to have a child, why didn't you use birth control? G.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, he never said that. But I was aware of his history before my mother was pregnant. And that was he had had a full scholarship to Cheyney state university. And he was a civil rights activist. He con"}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, because I didn't resent my being born."}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 8, "text": "G.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, because I didn't resent my being born."}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 9, "text": "So your family's story intersects with a very important chapter of labor history. Your father was an air traffic controller. He was a member of the Professional Air Traffic Controllers Organization - the air traffic controllers union known as PATCO. And in 1981, PATCO went on strike. What were they asking for? G.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he did take responsibility for - you know, to some extent - for his - you know, and I'm reluctant to call it a mistake even because he and my mother were desperately in love. And I think at the ti"}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 10, "text": "In a very controversial move, President Reagan broke the union. His attorney general said, show up to work within the next 48 hours or be terminated. The Reagan administration fired 13,000 people who were air traffic controllers, including your father. And the union was broken - a turning point in American labor history. What did it mean personally to your father to lose his job as an air traffic controller? G.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they were asking for reduced working hours. They were asking for a regularized schedule. They wanted updated equipment. They were still using at that time - in 1981, they were still using equipm"}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 11, "text": "You write the key figures in the strike were threatened with arrest. Did that include your father? G.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, as I said, he was a very ambitious man. And he was moving up in rank as an air traffic controller. And he was working at the Newark International Tower at the time of the strike. And so that was"}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Which meant doing what or not doing what? G.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Technically, it included everyone, all of the controllers, but because my father - at that point, he was very much on television and in the media quite a bit, which made him a very visible"}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 13, "text": "Was it upsetting to you when you were 12 to see your father, who had helped maintain air safety - you know, he would tell you what it was like to have to balance having all these, like, planes heading in different directions and making sure they didn't crash into each other. And, like, that's a pretty thrilling thing, I think, for a boy to think of his father doing. But then you were watching your father at loose ends, not knowing where he was going to go next, not - having to shape a new identity for himself, not making money for a while, smoking a lot of weed - well, you know, like, more so than, you know, he... G.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Which meant - I mean, if only in my head - right? - I don't know - the marshals probably didn't register any transformation in the little boy standing in front of them, but in my mind, the deference w"}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 14, "text": "More so than that he had, yeah. So what impact did it have on you to see your father have to figure out again, who am I? What am I doing? G.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Wait, replay it, but have a good ending? G.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know, how - what that meant for me. And I think for any kid, you know, looking up to - any boy, certainly, looking up to his father - and, you know, I'm granting that there are some aspects of "}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 16, "text": "So in a way, you were putting yourself in difficult situations to reassure yourself that if something happened to you, you could rescue yourself. G.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. I wanted to transcend the moment in honor of my father. But, of course, what I was also doing was just creating unnecessary problems in my life. And so the challenge that I work with - that I'm"}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 17, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Gregory Pardlo. He's the author of the new memoir \"Air Traffic: A Memoir Of Ambition And Manhood In America.\" He's a Pulitzer Prize winner for his poetry. There's a lot more to talk about. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The way I had it in my mind was that I was modeling for him. But you're absolutely right. I mean, I was trying to reassure myself that failure of that kind was not final, that one could find ways to l"}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Gregory Pardlo. He's the author of the new memoir \"Air Traffic: A Memoir Of Ambition And Manhood In America.\" He won a Pulitzer Prize for his book of poetry, \"Digest.\" I want to skip ahead a little in your life. You enlisted in the Marines, in the Marine Reserves, and you say it was so you can afford college. What benefits did you hope to get from being in the Marine Reserves? G.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The way I had it in my mind was that I was modeling for him. But you're absolutely right. I mean, I was trying to reassure myself that failure of that kind was not final, that one could find ways to l"}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 19, "text": "It sounds like maybe you also joined the Marines because you wanted to get away from home. G.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't really know. I mean, I was following the stories that I was being told. You know, if you go - so if the problem is, you don't have money for college, the recruiter told me, join the Marine Co"}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 20, "text": "What year are we talking about? So this... G.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was - yeah. There was part of that, and there was part of a kind of recklessness involved in that decision. But if I had been able to avoid the Marine Corps, I certainly would have."}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 21, "text": "So two weeks after you arrived at boot camp on Parris Island, your paternal grandmother died. And you were joining the Marines for the eventual tuition you hoped to get. Your father used your grandmother's life insurance to buy a $50,000 boat. G.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "June of 1987, I went to Parris Island, yeah."}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 22, "text": "What was your reaction to that? G.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 23, "text": "So in the Marines, you shortly realized this was really not for you, and you let your superiors know that. Can you describe what happened, what you said? G.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was horrified. I was horrified. But I understood because, you know, he was a very materialistic guy who - as an air traffic controller when he was working, he had a Corvette. And we were - as a fami"}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 24, "text": "What was your punishment? G.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It didn't work out that way, you know."}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 25, "text": "So how long did you end up serving in the Marine Reserves? G.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So there's this thing they do called digging. And so they send you out into the dirt, and you got to do exercises. So they'll shout, you know, push-ups now, and then a few seconds later, leg lifts now"}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 26, "text": "Where does that rank on the level of - is that, like, a dishonorable discharge? G.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was only two years, a little over two years. And they just offered me an administrative discharge, which was fairly easy to do."}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 27, "text": "What did you do that got you, you know, the administrative discharge? G.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "self-loathing in having been kicked out of the Marine Corps. And I didn't know at that point, again, what I was doing and why I was forcing myself into these moments of crisis and what I wanted out of"}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 28, "text": "So you joined the Marines to help pay tuition. Did it ever help you pay tuition? G.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "dangerous circumstance. And so showing up to the Marine Corps Reserve duty once a month became onerous in a way that I couldn't balance with the rest of my high-rolling, quote, unquote, \"life.\""}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 29, "text": "Well, you managed to go to college and get deep in debt to student loans", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it never helped pay tuition either. Yeah. So I never got the - that benefit out of it."}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 30, "text": ". G.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it never helped pay tuition either. Yeah. So I never got the - that benefit out of it."}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 31, "text": "So happy ending", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 32, "text": ". G.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 33, "text": "Yeah. My guest is Pulitzer Prize-winning poet Gregory Pardlo, author of the new book, \"Air Traffic: A Memoir Of Ambition And Manhood In America.\" After a break, he'll tell us how his family ended up on a reality show. And Maureen Corrigan will review Patricia Hampl's new book that is part memoir, titled \"The Art Of The Wasted Day.\" I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 34, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross, back with Gregory Pardlo, a Pulitzer Prize-winning poet and author of the new book, \"Air Traffic: A Memoir Of Ambition And Manhood In America.\" It's in part about his relationship with his father, who was active in the air traffic controllers union when the union went on strike in 1981, and President Reagan broke the union and fired its members. Pardlo thinks his father never quite recovered from losing that job, which was so tied to his identity, not to mention his income. There were some difficult financial times in the family after that. So your younger brother Robbie, who's 10 years younger than you, was a very - or is a very talented singer. And his credits include - he sang backup on Whitney Houston's track, \"My Love Is Your Love.\" He was trained by Teddy Pendergrass. G.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Pretty amazing. Any other credits you want to mention for him? G.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Teddy Pendergrass, yeah."}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 36, "text": "So your brother became an alcoholic. And when he was in his 20s, your mother decided to try to get him on the show \"Intervention.\" Would you describe what the show is? G.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "to it today."}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 37, "text": "His music career. G.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So A&E's \"Intervention\" is a reality television show that follows an individual who is suffering from alcoholism or an addiction of some sort to - on one track of the story is the following the su"}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 38, "text": "OK, so you were a heavy drinker yourself at this time. So how did you feel about your family staging an intervention on reality TV? G.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "His music career, yeah - as a way of demonstrating to the world look how we as a family have transcended this moment, this crisis and have changed the course of our - of Robbie's life for the better."}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 39, "text": "So let me play the opening of the episode of \"Intervention\" featuring your family. And this is, like, the opening collage.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "At that point, I was still - I still believed that no one knew the extent to which I was a blackout drinker. And being on the show just presented such an existential threat to me - to have to act like"}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 40, "text": "So that's the episode of the reality TV series \"Intervention\" featuring my guest Gregory Pardlo's family. But, Gregory, you're not in that opening collage, are you? G.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Give me my [expletive] keys. Where's my [expletive] hat? UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #3: I don't know what I'm supposed to do. UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #4: Hi. UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #3: That's not water. UNIDENTIFIE"}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 41, "text": "Were you thinking of your father when you said that? G.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, and that was just for reasons of editing. I did eventually agree to be in the show proper. Yeah, and it kind of calls me back to that moment to hear that stuff. And I remember feeling that I wasn'"}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 42, "text": "What was it like to hear your family in that opening collage the first time you heard it? And it's all these, like, dramatic moments and dramatic pronouncements with, like, music underneath - and your family's really complicated life kind of reduced to this, like, opening dramatic reality TV montage. G.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I am thinking about my father. And I am thinking about my mother too because at that point, you know, we had already filmed much of the cutaway interviews and all that stuff. And I had watched all of "}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 43, "text": "In this episode of \"Intervention\" where your brother's supposed to get sober - that actually you were the one who got sober. So how did that happen? G.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My father, he was always spoiling for the soundtrack. And then this is - this was his moment."}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 44, "text": "How's your brother now? G.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "about Candy was penetrating, and I felt seen. And I listened to her in a way - and perhaps it was just that I was prepared for it. I was ready for it at that time. And again, all the soundtrack and th"}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 45, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Gregory Pardlo, a Pulitzer Prize-winning poet and author of the new memoir, \"Air Traffic: A Memoir Of Ambition And Manhood In America.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "what I'm avoiding saying is I think should he could be doing so much better. But it's not mine to say, right? Anybody could be doing so much better from another perspective."}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 46, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Gregory Pardlo. He's the author of the new memoir, \"Air Traffic: A Memoir Of Ambition And Manhood In America.\" He won a Pulitzer Prize for his book of poetry, \"Digest.\" There's a paragraph I want you to read from your memoir that's about identity. It's on page 148. Would you read it for us? G.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "what I'm avoiding saying is I think should he could be doing so much better. But it's not mine to say, right? Anybody could be doing so much better from another perspective."}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 47, "text": "What do you mean by a practicing black? G.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. (Reading) I don't care to be considered American to the exclusion of my African-Americanness. I don't want to be considered post-black or ex-colored. If I was raised black for the most part, it "}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 48, "text": ". G.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, boy. So I can hear the groans of..."}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 49, "text": "So you won the Pulitzer Prize for poetry. But your first book of poetry, when that was published - and what year are we talking? G.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "not acknowledge the fact that I am black, I could walk into great danger. However, in my head and on the page as I'm writing, I think there's a way of thinking about race that I grew up with that allo"}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 50, "text": "So that year, when you had your book party, your family was at the book party. But that was the night that your father officially left your mother. It kind of fits into my theory, which I have expressed before on our show, that often when something really wonderful happens in your professional life, something really awful is happening in your personal life to counterbalance the good news. So", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "2007."}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 51, "text": "did you feel that way, like the...? G.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "2007."}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 52, "text": "So do you feel there's any connection between your party - your book party and your parents' separation at that moment? G.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, fortunately for me, I wasn't aware of what had happened. My mother told me the story much later. I was aware of the difficulties my parents were having. But it was - and I was certainly aware of"}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 53, "text": "So one more thing - when you were young and you misbehaved, your father would punish you by making you read a word in a dictionary, find, like, the etymology of the word, put it down in writing. And, like, you are a word guy, so in some ways, it was probably teaching you to hate the dictionary, but in other ways to really appreciate the history of individual words and the subtlety of their meaning. So looking back at that punishment in retrospect, what do you think of it? G.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. My - well, as I say, he's always - my father was always looking for, you know, the dramatic moment, and this was as good a dramatic moment as there - as he could have asked for, and which is int"}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 54, "text": "Well, Gregory Pardlo, thank you so much for talking with us. G.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it was - well, again, consistent with my father, he - I think in some way, he was showing off. He was demonstrate - he was performing for me his vocabulary and his prowess with language. And so th"}
{"id": "604941796", "date": "2018-04-23", "guest": "Gregory Pardlo", "title": "Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet Reflects On 'Ambition And Manhood In America'", "question_index": 55, "text": "Gregory Pardlo's new book is called \"Air Traffic: A Memoir Of Ambition And Manhood In America.\" After we take a short break, Maureen Corrigan will review Patricia Hampl's new book that's part memoir, part travelogue. It's called \"The Art Of The Wasted Day.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's been a pleasure. Thank you."}
{"id": "605252936", "date": "2018-04-24", "guest": "David Kertzer", "title": "Why Pius IX Might Be The 'Most Important Pope' In Modern Church History", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're going to talk about a turning point in the history of the Catholic Church. My guest David Kertzer is the author of the new book \"The Pope Who Would Be King: The Exile Of Pius IX And The Emergence Of Modern Europe.\" Pius became pope in 1846. He was the last pope to rule over the Papal States, which covered much of what is now Italy. There was no separation of church and state until a rebellion by Italian nationalists forced Pope Pius IX into exile, which led to the creation of modern Italy. After the pope returned from exile without the Papal States to rule over, he was confined to the Vatican, giving the Vatican a new significance. Pius also instituted the doctrine of papal infallibility. He saw freedom of speech in of the press as incompatible with Catholicism. David Kertzer won a Pulitzer Prize in 2015 for his book \"The Pope And Mussolini\" about the secret relationship between Pope Pius XI and the Italian dictator Benito Mussolini. He's also the author of \"The Popes Against The Jews: The Vatican\u2019s Role In The Rise Of Modern Anti-Semitism.\" Kertzer is a professor at Brown University. David Kertzer, welcome back to FRESH AIR. So there are several turning points in the Catholic Church during the period that you're writing about - turning points that Pope Pius IX was responsible for. Can you just give us a sense of why his papacy was a turning point in Catholic history?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "605252936", "date": "2018-04-24", "guest": "David Kertzer", "title": "Why Pius IX Might Be The 'Most Important Pope' In Modern Church History", "question_index": 1, "text": "You know, we take for granted the separation of church and state as a Western principle, but that wasn't true in the era of the pope that you're writing about. You describe, you know, the pope as the pope who would be king. You describe him as the pope king. What does that mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Pope Pius IX became pope at a time of revolutionary ferment in Europe, when the old ideas of autocracy were being questioned, when demands for constitutional rights were being heard. And he was be"}
{"id": "605252936", "date": "2018-04-24", "guest": "David Kertzer", "title": "Why Pius IX Might Be The 'Most Important Pope' In Modern Church History", "question_index": 2, "text": "So as the ruler, what powers did the pope have over his people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, for a thousand years, the pope was not only a spiritual leader of Roman Catholics, but he was also a king. He ruled over a swath of Italy, although their capital was in Rome. It ranged all the w"}
{"id": "605252936", "date": "2018-04-24", "guest": "David Kertzer", "title": "Why Pius IX Might Be The 'Most Important Pope' In Modern Church History", "question_index": 3, "text": "So when Pope Pius IX became pope, he had a palace. The popes up until that point had palaces. What was the palace like, and where was it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The pope had absolute power over his people. He, in fact, inflicted capital punishment at the extreme case. So there'd always be a certain popular interest in attending the executions by guillotine or"}
{"id": "605252936", "date": "2018-04-24", "guest": "David Kertzer", "title": "Why Pius IX Might Be The 'Most Important Pope' In Modern Church History", "question_index": 4, "text": "So Pope Pius IX becomes Pope in 1846. At first, he's really popular. Why is he popular?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, the people think, of course, the pope always was in the Vatican. But, in fact, the popes were not in the Vatican. They were in the Quirinal Palace, this huge - makes the White House look tiny - t"}
{"id": "605252936", "date": "2018-04-24", "guest": "David Kertzer", "title": "Why Pius IX Might Be The 'Most Important Pope' In Modern Church History", "question_index": 5, "text": "Another thing he did was open the Jewish ghettos, and let the Jews out of those ghettos. So let's start with the fact that the Jews were confined to ghettos in the Papal States.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Pius IX replaced a reactionary pope who was extremely unpopular - Gregory XVI. And he was a relatively young man - about 51 or 52 - when he became pope. He had a reputation as being a kind bishop of h"}
{"id": "605252936", "date": "2018-04-24", "guest": "David Kertzer", "title": "Why Pius IX Might Be The 'Most Important Pope' In Modern Church History", "question_index": 6, "text": "OK. So the pope doesn't stay that popular for long, and they're not literally singing his praises for very long. Why do people turn against the pope?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Jews had been confined to ghettos from the mid-16th century - the mid-1500s - by papal edict. And they were languishing in a fetid, overcrowded zone on the river of the Tiber River, which at the t"}
{"id": "605252936", "date": "2018-04-24", "guest": "David Kertzer", "title": "Why Pius IX Might Be The 'Most Important Pope' In Modern Church History", "question_index": 7, "text": "So this story about Pope Pius IX takes a lot of twists and turns. But let's jump ahead to when he's actually forced out of the territory that he rules. He's forced out of his home in the Papal States. What was the last straw?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a very dramatic turn of popular opinion against the pope. He had been so popular, yet he felt himself in a bind. His cardinals were very upset. Many of the ambassadors from the various monarchies"}
{"id": "605252936", "date": "2018-04-24", "guest": "David Kertzer", "title": "Why Pius IX Might Be The 'Most Important Pope' In Modern Church History", "question_index": 8, "text": "So he has - he escapes. It's a very complicated escape. Where does he go?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there was a violent revolt. In fact, his prime minister was murdered in the middle of Rome not far from his own palace and within a few minutes of having visited the pope himself. He was going t"}
{"id": "605252936", "date": "2018-04-24", "guest": "David Kertzer", "title": "Why Pius IX Might Be The 'Most Important Pope' In Modern Church History", "question_index": 9, "text": "And so that's what happens. But then the pope ends up coming back, another really complicated story. But I want to kind of cut to the chase here", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one of the curious things about this story is he lets out a different word to different - the people who are helping his escape as to where he's going. He turns, for example, to the French ambas"}
{"id": "605252936", "date": "2018-04-24", "guest": "David Kertzer", "title": "Why Pius IX Might Be The 'Most Important Pope' In Modern Church History", "question_index": 10, "text": ". So the pope returns. People aren't necessarily thrilled to have him back, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one of the curious things about this story is he lets out a different word to different - the people who are helping his escape as to where he's going. He turns, for example, to the French ambas"}
{"id": "605252936", "date": "2018-04-24", "guest": "David Kertzer", "title": "Why Pius IX Might Be The 'Most Important Pope' In Modern Church History", "question_index": 11, "text": "The pope, after he returns to Rome, forces the Jews back into the ghettos.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, he - first of all, he doesn't come back right away. He waits several months after the French have re-conquered Rome to return. And in fact, the king of Naples is not at all eager to see him go be"}
{"id": "605252936", "date": "2018-04-24", "guest": "David Kertzer", "title": "Why Pius IX Might Be The 'Most Important Pope' In Modern Church History", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, I'll tell you what. Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is David Kertzer. He's the author of the new book \"The Pope Who Would Be King: The Exile Of Pius IX And The Emergence Of Modern Europe.\" He won a Pulitzer Prize for his book \"The Pope And Mussolini.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, and that's really a major part of the story. The Jews were something of the bellwether, I'd say, of this whole story in that the story is one of the preservation of a medieval view of society aga"}
{"id": "605252936", "date": "2018-04-24", "guest": "David Kertzer", "title": "Why Pius IX Might Be The 'Most Important Pope' In Modern Church History", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is David Kertzer, author of the new book \"The Pope Who Would Be King: The Exile Of Pius IX And The Emergence Of Modern Europe.\" He won a Pulitzer Prize for his book \"The Pope And Mussolini.\" So in 1864 after the Pope's return to Rome, he issues his first encyclical since his return. This is a very important encyclical. What does it say?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, and that's really a major part of the story. The Jews were something of the bellwether, I'd say, of this whole story in that the story is one of the preservation of a medieval view of society aga"}
{"id": "605252936", "date": "2018-04-24", "guest": "David Kertzer", "title": "Why Pius IX Might Be The 'Most Important Pope' In Modern Church History", "question_index": 14, "text": "And he also wrote that Catholics were bound to reject the view that the pope can and should reconcile himself to progress, liberalism and modern civilizations. So he saw progress and liberalism and modern civilizations as being anti-Catholic.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, the encyclical is \"Quanta Cura,\" and probably most importantly and best known about it is along with that encyclical came what was called as the \"Syllabus Of Errors.\" And it stated that it would"}
{"id": "605252936", "date": "2018-04-24", "guest": "David Kertzer", "title": "Why Pius IX Might Be The 'Most Important Pope' In Modern Church History", "question_index": 15, "text": "The idea of papal infallibility, does that originate with Pius IX?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, and here this is an issue that seems strangely to still live on today - those in the church who think that the church really shouldn't be changing its doctrine in response to modern times, those "}
{"id": "605252936", "date": "2018-04-24", "guest": "David Kertzer", "title": "Why Pius IX Might Be The 'Most Important Pope' In Modern Church History", "question_index": 16, "text": "So Rome, which was the capital of the Papal States, was seized in 1870, which is when modern Italy was created. Who seized it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, one of Pius IX's great contributions to the church history and what makes - and one of the reasons I think he's probably the most influential and most important pope in modern church history is i"}
{"id": "605252936", "date": "2018-04-24", "guest": "David Kertzer", "title": "Why Pius IX Might Be The 'Most Important Pope' In Modern Church History", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is when the Vatican becomes the pope's home in the center of his authority.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was seized by the Italian army. So the Italy - many people seem to think Italy was around for many, many years, but Italy is actually a relatively recent creation of the mid-19th century. And one o"}
{"id": "605252936", "date": "2018-04-24", "guest": "David Kertzer", "title": "Why Pius IX Might Be The 'Most Important Pope' In Modern Church History", "question_index": 18, "text": "My guest is David Kertzer, author of the new book \"The Pope Who Would Be King: The Exile Of Pius IX And The Emergence Of Modern Europe.\" After we take a break, we'll talk about how Pius' legacy continues today. And film critic Justin Chang will review \"Zama,\" an 18th century epic about colonialism and the New World. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. What had happened is there had been a shift in 1850 - so after he has gone into exile, after the Roman Revolution, after the French troops finally return him to power in 1850, he actually doesn't"}
{"id": "605252936", "date": "2018-04-24", "guest": "David Kertzer", "title": "Why Pius IX Might Be The 'Most Important Pope' In Modern Church History", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross back with David Kertzer, who's written extensively about the history of the Catholic Church. He won a Pulitzer for his book about the secret relationship between Pope Pius XI and Mussolini. His new book \"The Pope Who Would Be King\" is about Pope Pius IX, the last pope to rule over the Papal States, which covered much of what is now Italy. A rebellion against him by Italian nationalists sent him into exile. When he returned, the Papal States no longer existed and the pope was confined to the Vatican. So you have all these changes under Pope Pius. He rules that there's papal infallibility, that modernity violates Catholicism. This period ends the pope's authority to rule over the Papal States, he's limited to the Vatican. So Pope Pius IX dies in 1878. Then what? Like, how were the things that he instituted continued after that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. What had happened is there had been a shift in 1850 - so after he has gone into exile, after the Roman Revolution, after the French troops finally return him to power in 1850, he actually doesn't"}
{"id": "605252936", "date": "2018-04-24", "guest": "David Kertzer", "title": "Why Pius IX Might Be The 'Most Important Pope' In Modern Church History", "question_index": 20, "text": "So it was Pope Pius XI in 1929 during the beginning of Mussolini's power in Italy. It's during that period that Vatican City is formed. So what's the importance of that? 'Cause that's, again, the end of an era and the beginning of a new one.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The pope's legacy - Pius IX's legacy certainly lives on. He had proclaimed himself prisoner of the Vatican. He refused to step foot outside the Vatican. He told all the Italians that to recognize the "}
{"id": "605252936", "date": "2018-04-24", "guest": "David Kertzer", "title": "Why Pius IX Might Be The 'Most Important Pope' In Modern Church History", "question_index": 21, "text": "So during the era of Pope Pius IX you write about, he saw freedom of speech and freedom of the press as being anti-Catholic. How long did that last?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, 1929 is really a turning point in Vatican history, this long period of the popes proclaiming themselves prisoner of the Vatican, not recognizing the legitimacy of the Italian state. And it took, "}
{"id": "605252936", "date": "2018-04-24", "guest": "David Kertzer", "title": "Why Pius IX Might Be The 'Most Important Pope' In Modern Church History", "question_index": 22, "text": "So you're talking about the 1960s.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That lasted in some ways until the Second Vatican Council and John XXIII. So really..."}
{"id": "605252936", "date": "2018-04-24", "guest": "David Kertzer", "title": "Why Pius IX Might Be The 'Most Important Pope' In Modern Church History", "question_index": 23, "text": "So really there are some ideas that were created in the second half of the 1800s under Pope Pius IX that have been accepted as eternal but were actually pretty recent in terms of church history.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. The early 1960s with the Second Vatican Council, which in a way overturned the First Vatican Council of 1869, 1870. There had been some, you might say, slippage. Certainly, the experience of the "}
{"id": "605252936", "date": "2018-04-24", "guest": "David Kertzer", "title": "Why Pius IX Might Be The 'Most Important Pope' In Modern Church History", "question_index": 24, "text": "What are some of the reforms that the Second Vatican Council instituted?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this is true in terms of papal infallibility. Of course, what Pius IX was embracing was a medieval vision of the church, the notion that there should be a marriage of church and state, for examp"}
{"id": "605252936", "date": "2018-04-24", "guest": "David Kertzer", "title": "Why Pius IX Might Be The 'Most Important Pope' In Modern Church History", "question_index": 25, "text": "So in 2000, Pope John Paul II beatified Pope Pius IX, the pope that we've been talking about. And beatification is the first step toward sainthood. So with all that you've told us about Pius IX, about him putting his enemies in dungeons, using the guillotine against his enemies, confining Jews to ghettos, saying that freedom of speech and freedom of the press were anti-Catholic, declaring papal infallibility - with all the things that Pope Pius did, why did Pope John Paul II want to beatify him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Second Vatican Council tried to modernize the church. It introduced a liturgy in English rather than Latin, which had English-speaking countries in the vernacular of the country rather than Latin."}
{"id": "605252936", "date": "2018-04-24", "guest": "David Kertzer", "title": "Why Pius IX Might Be The 'Most Important Pope' In Modern Church History", "question_index": 26, "text": "He was the pope during Vatican II, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's interesting. If you look at the day that he beatified him, which was in September 2000 - it was part of the millennium celebrations - he beatified another pope the same day. That Pope was P"}
{"id": "605252936", "date": "2018-04-24", "guest": "David Kertzer", "title": "Why Pius IX Might Be The 'Most Important Pope' In Modern Church History", "question_index": 27, "text": "So where's Pius IX now on his road to sainthood?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. He was the pope who called Vatican II and presided over those reforms. And so many people believe that - and this seems obvious to me - that John Paul II was trying to please both the liberals an"}
{"id": "605252936", "date": "2018-04-24", "guest": "David Kertzer", "title": "Why Pius IX Might Be The 'Most Important Pope' In Modern Church History", "question_index": 28, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is David Kertzer. He's the author of the new book, \"The Pope Who Would Be King: The Exile Of Pius IX And The Emergence Of Modern Europe.\" We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there's just recently out of the Vatican a story - I don't know how reliable it is - that things, after having apparently slowed down, are now speeding up again. So there's been a little burst o"}
{"id": "605252936", "date": "2018-04-24", "guest": "David Kertzer", "title": "Why Pius IX Might Be The 'Most Important Pope' In Modern Church History", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is David Kertzer, author of the new book \"The Pope Who Would Be King: The Exile Of Pius IX And The Emergence Of Modern Europe.\" He won a Pulitzer for his earlier book \"The Pope And Mussolini,\" and that was about Pius XI and Mussolini. So there's an issue from Pius IX's era that's actually in the news today. And it involves the kidnapping of a boy named Edgardo Mortara. So this was a kidnapping that relates to a law that was in effect about baptizing Jewish children. Can you explain what the law was?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there's just recently out of the Vatican a story - I don't know how reliable it is - that things, after having apparently slowed down, are now speeding up again. So there's been a little burst o"}
{"id": "605252936", "date": "2018-04-24", "guest": "David Kertzer", "title": "Why Pius IX Might Be The 'Most Important Pope' In Modern Church History", "question_index": 30, "text": "Why did this servant baptize the Jewish boy or call for his baptism? Did she do it herself or have a priest come in? What happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. From the church point of view, if a Jewish child was baptized, even without the parents' knowledge or consent, that child was to be considered a Christian and could not be raised by Jewish paren"}
{"id": "605252936", "date": "2018-04-24", "guest": "David Kertzer", "title": "Why Pius IX Might Be The 'Most Important Pope' In Modern Church History", "question_index": 31, "text": "So this boy's parents were told that if they converted to Catholicism, they'd be allowed to live with their son as a Christian family.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, she - turns out that, from church doctrine, you, first of all, don't need to be a priest. You don't even actually need to be Catholic to perform a legitimate baptism. You just need to sprinkle wat"}
{"id": "605252936", "date": "2018-04-24", "guest": "David Kertzer", "title": "Why Pius IX Might Be The 'Most Important Pope' In Modern Church History", "question_index": 32, "text": "Why is this story back in the news?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. The parents were desperately trying to get the child back. And they helped create international pressure. In fact, in the United States, thousands of people showed up at protest demonstrations "}
{"id": "605252936", "date": "2018-04-24", "guest": "David Kertzer", "title": "Why Pius IX Might Be The 'Most Important Pope' In Modern Church History", "question_index": 33, "text": "So in the Catholic Church now, is it still true that people can baptize a Jewish baby or a baby of any other faith and just automatically make them Catholic without the consent of the family?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Pius IX remains the heroes of those in the church who think, with Pope Francis, the Church is going wrong - its progressive direction is somehow not in keeping with the traditions of the church. And i"}
{"id": "605252936", "date": "2018-04-24", "guest": "David Kertzer", "title": "Why Pius IX Might Be The 'Most Important Pope' In Modern Church History", "question_index": 34, "text": "So because you write so much about popes, I'm wondering, were you raised in any faith and if so how writing about popes has affected your own faith or lack of it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is one of the sore points, actually, today because my understanding is, even the most recent revision of Canon Law, still includes the idea that it's a good thing if one finds a child dying who h"}
{"id": "605252936", "date": "2018-04-24", "guest": "David Kertzer", "title": "Why Pius IX Might Be The 'Most Important Pope' In Modern Church History", "question_index": 35, "text": "So how has writing about papal history affected your own interest in practicing Judaism?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there is a personal story here. My father was actually a rabbi. And he was a chaplain to the American troops who landed at Anzio in the beginning of 1944 seeking to liberate Rome, which was then"}
{"id": "605252936", "date": "2018-04-24", "guest": "David Kertzer", "title": "Why Pius IX Might Be The 'Most Important Pope' In Modern Church History", "question_index": 36, "text": "Because...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't know that it affects me as a Jew in terms of my Jewish practice. But it does affect my sensitivity when I hear people, for example, fellow Americans talk about the secularism as the enem"}
{"id": "605252936", "date": "2018-04-24", "guest": "David Kertzer", "title": "Why Pius IX Might Be The 'Most Important Pope' In Modern Church History", "question_index": 37, "text": "And you saw that in your study of Pope Pius IX?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because I see what happens when the government is identified with a religious belief that someone has some kind of monopoly on divine truth and others don't share that knowledge of what God wants. Tha"}
{"id": "605252936", "date": "2018-04-24", "guest": "David Kertzer", "title": "Why Pius IX Might Be The 'Most Important Pope' In Modern Church History", "question_index": 38, "text": "Well, David Kertzer, I want to thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Pius IX certainly incarnated that idea. He was doing God's will. If he realized, for example, in keeping Edgardo Mortara, that 6-year-old Jewish child he took, he told the child, he says, you know, yo"}
{"id": "605252936", "date": "2018-04-24", "guest": "David Kertzer", "title": "Why Pius IX Might Be The 'Most Important Pope' In Modern Church History", "question_index": 39, "text": "David Kertzer is the author of the new book \"The Pope Who Would Be King: The Exile Of Pius IX And The Emergence Of Modern Europe.\" After we take a short break, film critic Justin Chang will review \"Zama,\" a new film set in 18th century about colonialism and the New World. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's been my pleasure. Thank you."}
{"id": "606367479", "date": "2018-04-27", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' Jazz Musician Bob Dorough", "question_index": 0, "text": "I really love that tune.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Playing piano, singing, vocalizing) Yeah, baby, you want some of my sounds? I like them sounds. Well, I'm hip. I'm no square. I'm alert. I'm awake. I'm aware. I am always on the scene, making the rou"}
{"id": "606367479", "date": "2018-04-27", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' Jazz Musician Bob Dorough", "question_index": 1, "text": "Do you know a lot of people like that, who are trying to - try to out-hip the musicians and try to out-hip everyone else at the club?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's not the real me. You know that."}
{"id": "606367479", "date": "2018-04-27", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' Jazz Musician Bob Dorough", "question_index": 2, "text": "Uh-huh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure - out in the audience, you mean?"}
{"id": "606367479", "date": "2018-04-27", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' Jazz Musician Bob Dorough", "question_index": 3, "text": "And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh yeah, yeah. Sure."}
{"id": "606367479", "date": "2018-04-27", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' Jazz Musician Bob Dorough", "question_index": 4, "text": "That's your big hit song. I've - last week, I was in New York, and I heard Blossom Dearie sing it. Well, Dave Frishberg, the co-author of it, has a recording of it. There's an instrumental version with Ed Bickert of it. I don't know if you've heard that one.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They're the ones that come out and say, you know, let's play \"Mack The Knife.\""}
{"id": "606367479", "date": "2018-04-27", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' Jazz Musician Bob Dorough", "question_index": 5, "text": "Yeah, we'll play it for you after the show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I didn't know that."}
{"id": "606367479", "date": "2018-04-27", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' Jazz Musician Bob Dorough", "question_index": 6, "text": "Nah", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, great. Well, you know, when Dave gave me the lyric, he said, oh, this is nothing. It's just an old lyric. I don't think it'll make a song. And, of course, I was very enthused. I said, oh, this is "}
{"id": "606367479", "date": "2018-04-27", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' Jazz Musician Bob Dorough", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, great. Well, you know, when Dave gave me the lyric, he said, oh, this is nothing. It's just an old lyric. I don't think it'll make a song. And, of course, I was very enthused. I said, oh, this is "}
{"id": "606367479", "date": "2018-04-27", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' Jazz Musician Bob Dorough", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, it's a great tune. Can you do another one of your familiar tunes for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess I was the first to record it, and Blossom was the second, and Dave was the third. But it seems to be getting bigger and bigger. Everybody wants a copy, and I guess an old - there's nothing lik"}
{"id": "606367479", "date": "2018-04-27", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' Jazz Musician Bob Dorough", "question_index": 9, "text": "Let's hear it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "How about the love song I like so much - \"But For Now?\""}
{"id": "606367479", "date": "2018-04-27", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' Jazz Musician Bob Dorough", "question_index": 10, "text": "That's a really beautiful song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I actually wrote it for my wife. And we've done quite well. We're still together after 20 - who counts? - several years. But this was written for Corine. It's called \"But For Now.\" (Singing, playing"}
{"id": "606367479", "date": "2018-04-27", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' Jazz Musician Bob Dorough", "question_index": 11, "text": "When you write, what comes first for you - the music or the lyrics?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're remembering jazz pianist, singer and songwriter Bob Dorough, who died on Monday at the age of 94. Let's get back to his concert broadcast live in 1982, when Terry Gross hosted"}
{"id": "606367479", "date": "2018-04-27", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' Jazz Musician Bob Dorough", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, when you get somebody else's lyrics, how do you write the music around it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I've had the experience - the pleasure, I might say - of functioning as a lyricist for other people and also functioning as a composer for lyricists. So when that happens, they tend to come simu"}
{"id": "606367479", "date": "2018-04-27", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' Jazz Musician Bob Dorough", "question_index": 13, "text": "Bob, how did you develop your singing style? How did you know, for instance, that you weren't a blues shouter or someone who could really belt out a song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Nothing like you has ever been seen before. Nothing like you existed in days of yore. Never were lips so kissable. Never were eyes so bright. I can't believe it's possible that you bring me "}
{"id": "606367479", "date": "2018-04-27", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' Jazz Musician Bob Dorough", "question_index": 14, "text": "You play a lot of your own tunes, but you also play tunes by other composers. When you're adding someone's tune - a song that was written by somebody else, what do you look for in it before deciding to add it to your repertoire?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I knew that because I don't have a loud voice, I don't think. I think of the blues shouters as all being, you know, the guys that came up from the field holler - you know what a field holler is,"}
{"id": "606367479", "date": "2018-04-27", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' Jazz Musician Bob Dorough", "question_index": 15, "text": "Yeah. Pop - those songs go through periods where they sound like real cliches. And then you let them sit for a while.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". You know, like when \"Raindrops Keep Falling On My Head\" came out, I thought, oh, that's a great song. But everybody was singing it in every bar and every corner. So I just laid back about three year"}
{"id": "606367479", "date": "2018-04-27", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' Jazz Musician Bob Dorough", "question_index": 16, "text": "They freshen up again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hey, that's not bad."}
{"id": "606367479", "date": "2018-04-27", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' Jazz Musician Bob Dorough", "question_index": 17, "text": "Can you do another one of your songs for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You say, hey, that's not bad. Yeah, sometimes I fall in love with a song years later. But I essentially fallen in love with songs I want to sing. I always try to add something of my own. I never attem"}
{"id": "606367479", "date": "2018-04-27", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' Jazz Musician Bob Dorough", "question_index": 18, "text": "So when he said, so what do you think, what did you really think?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, let's see. I had met the advertising people who concocted the idea, and my partner Ben Tucker in fact wanted us to write a little advertising music. He's a bass player, Ben Tucker. So one day, t"}
{"id": "606367479", "date": "2018-04-27", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' Jazz Musician Bob Dorough", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "could be, you know, a limited idea."}
{"id": "606367479", "date": "2018-04-27", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' Jazz Musician Bob Dorough", "question_index": 20, "text": "Did you get anything from those books that you used in the song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But when he added, don't write down to children, the hackles on my neck arose, and I got quite intrigued. And so I agreed to tackle it, and I spent about three weeks before I would let myself write th"}
{"id": "606367479", "date": "2018-04-27", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' Jazz Musician Bob Dorough", "question_index": 21, "text": "What'd you get?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did indeed."}
{"id": "606367479", "date": "2018-04-27", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' Jazz Musician Bob Dorough", "question_index": 22, "text": "Well, why don't we pause here and listen to your version - the original version - of \"Three Is A Magic Number?\" Now, did you sing on this one?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that it was one of the magic numbers and that it was, you know, embodied in certain things like the Trinity, the old sayings - the heart and the brain and the body. Faith, hope and charity. Trin"}
{"id": "606367479", "date": "2018-04-27", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' Jazz Musician Bob Dorough", "question_index": 23, "text": "OK. Why don't we hear it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "606367479", "date": "2018-04-27", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' Jazz Musician Bob Dorough", "question_index": 24, "text": "Why don't we hear the Blind Melon version of \"Three Is A Magic Number?\" That's included on the new CD \"Schoolhouse Rock! Rocks.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Three is a magic number. Yes, it is. It's a magic number. Somewhere in the ancient mystic trinity, you get three as a magic number. The past and the present and the future. Faith and hope an"}
{"id": "606367479", "date": "2018-04-27", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' Jazz Musician Bob Dorough", "question_index": 25, "text": "Now, when the advertising executives asked you to to set the multiplication tables to music, had they already known they could broadcast on ABC TV?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Three - oh, it's a magic number. Yeah, it is. It's the magic number. Somewhere in that ancient mystic trinity, you'll get three. It's the magic number. And the past and the present and the f"}
{"id": "606367479", "date": "2018-04-27", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' Jazz Musician Bob Dorough", "question_index": 26, "text": "So how did it get on TV?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, they were thinking of a phonograph recording and a book. The idea of television wasn't remotely in their heads."}
{"id": "606367479", "date": "2018-04-27", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' Jazz Musician Bob Dorough", "question_index": 27, "text": "Why don't I play \"Conjunction Junction?\" Tell me about writing this song. Do you remember?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well after some time of testing the songs and having the product called \"Multiplication Rock,\" they didn't seem to be getting anywhere in the book publishing world. So one of the executives up at McCa"}
{"id": "606367479", "date": "2018-04-27", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' Jazz Musician Bob Dorough", "question_index": 28, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I must say that my pal George Newall - he's a musician as well as an art advertising director - he's one of the executives. George Newall gave me the title. We were starting \"Grammar Rock.\" And "}
{"id": "606367479", "date": "2018-04-27", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' Jazz Musician Bob Dorough", "question_index": 29, "text": "Do you think most of the people who grew up listening to your songs - do you think that they have any idea that these weren't written and performed by people in advertising agencies or theme houses - that they were written by you, an interesting and eccentric jazz performer. And the other songs, some of the other songs on here, are sung by interesting and eccentric jazz performers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Hooking up phrases..."}
{"id": "606367479", "date": "2018-04-27", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' Jazz Musician Bob Dorough", "question_index": 30, "text": "Yeah. Well, you brought in Dave Frishberg, the singer and songwriter, and pianist, trumpeter and singer Jack Sheldon, singer Blossom Dearie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "little bit of a underground movement there."}
{"id": "606367479", "date": "2018-04-27", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' Jazz Musician Bob Dorough", "question_index": 31, "text": "What's the difference in the kind of tune that you'd write for when your own jazz songs and for one of the \"Schoolhouse Rock!\" songs?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're remembering jazz pianist, singer and songwriter Bob Dorough, who died on Monday at the age of 94. Let's get back to the interview he recorded with Terry in 1996."}
{"id": "606367479", "date": "2018-04-27", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' Jazz Musician Bob Dorough", "question_index": 32, "text": "Would you sing a few lines of \"Figure Eight\" for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's more in the beat than the melody. I might do anything for a \"Schoolhouse Rock!\" song, but, you know, it's more apt to be a pop kind of beat instead of a jazz beat. I will tell you about \"Fi"}
{"id": "606367479", "date": "2018-04-27", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' Jazz Musician Bob Dorough", "question_index": 33, "text": "When you were first getting started musically, I mean, you were really deep into Charlie Parker and wanted to emulate him. And you didn't sing very much because you were afraid that singing would seem corny or too commercial to showbiz. And so it wasn't till I think you got to Paris in the '50s for a little bit that you actually started singing a lot.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Figure eight is double four. Figure four has half of eight. If you skate, you will be great when you can make a figure eight. That's a circle that turns round up on itself."}
{"id": "606367479", "date": "2018-04-27", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' Jazz Musician Bob Dorough", "question_index": 34, "text": "Bob Dorough, I've had such a great time during this hour.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The late Bob Dorough speaking with Terry Gross in 1996. Earlier in today's show, we heard a concert performance recorded in 1982 at the FRESH AIR studio. Here's how that session ended."}
{"id": "606367479", "date": "2018-04-27", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' Jazz Musician Bob Dorough", "question_index": 35, "text": "It's really wonderful just sitting and hearing you play. It's great. I've thoroughly enjoyed it. And I'm really glad that you were able to play some of your music for us today.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's all fine, Terry."}
{"id": "607360368", "date": "2018-05-01", "guest": "Abbas", "title": "Remembering Abbas, A Photographer Focused On The Religions Of The World", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're going to remember the photojournalist Abbas. He died last Wednesday. He was 74. Abbas was known for documenting religions, from rituals and expressions of spirituality to acts of extremism and violence committed in the name of religion. Abbas was born in Iran and though his family moved to Algeria when he was a boy, he returned to Iran in 1979. He photographed the Iranian Revolution, documenting the protests in the streets, watching as a popular uprising against the shah turned into an Islamic revolution led by extremist clerics. He subsequently traveled around the world photographing Muslims, Christians, Jews and Buddhists. He'd lived in Paris since the late '60s. He was affiliated with the Magnum Photos agency. I spoke with Abbas in 2015 and asked him about photographing the Iranian Revolution.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "607360368", "date": "2018-05-01", "guest": "Abbas", "title": "Remembering Abbas, A Photographer Focused On The Religions Of The World", "question_index": 1, "text": "So one of the photographs that you've taken was, I think, a photograph that was a turning point for you. It was taken at a morgue in Tehran in 1979. And it's a photo of the bodies of four generals who were executed after a secret trial that was held at the Ayatollah Khomeini's headquarters. And one of the bodies in the morgue was the former chief of the shah's secret police, the SAVAK. How did you get to take this photograph? And why was it so significant to you?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "607360368", "date": "2018-05-01", "guest": "Abbas", "title": "Remembering Abbas, A Photographer Focused On The Religions Of The World", "question_index": 2, "text": "I think it was shortly before that photograph that you took in the morgue that you took another photograph that you found disturbing. It's taken in the street where there's a mob of revolutionaries dragging a woman, who they thought was a supporter of the shah, dragging her through the streets. What are they doing, and how did you come upon the scene?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, we spent - every day, we used to go to the headquarters of Khomeini. And then we heard that people had been executed during the night. So the only way to see the results of the executi"}
{"id": "607360368", "date": "2018-05-01", "guest": "Abbas", "title": "Remembering Abbas, A Photographer Focused On The Religions Of The World", "question_index": 3, "text": "What was the first photograph you took that got attention?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were hitting her and dragging her. So, of course, as a photographer, you first react. I mean, you don't think too much, you just - they were running and I was running backwards and taking picture"}
{"id": "607360368", "date": "2018-05-01", "guest": "Abbas", "title": "Remembering Abbas, A Photographer Focused On The Religions Of The World", "question_index": 4, "text": "What did that photograph mean to you? And what are some of the interpretations that you've heard of it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's just more than one, you know, so - but maybe one of them was the - I photographed apartheid in 1978 in South Africa. There's a picture I took, there's a white officer in uniform and there a"}
{"id": "607360368", "date": "2018-05-01", "guest": "Abbas", "title": "Remembering Abbas, A Photographer Focused On The Religions Of The World", "question_index": 5, "text": "My interview with photojournalist Abbas was recorded in 2015. He died last Wednesday. He was 74. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be Pulitzer Prize-winning author Jon Meacham. He'll talk about understanding this moment in American politics and life by looking at the past, sharing examples of times when the partisan divide was bad but people unified for the common good. Meacham's new book is called \"The Soul Of America: The Battle For Our Better Angels.\" I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's not so much what it means to me that we became, you know, again, the symbol of apartheid. And I remember, you know, I mean, because South Africans, in those days, they didn't know who I was"}
{"id": "607360368", "date": "2018-05-01", "guest": "Abbas", "title": "Remembering Abbas, A Photographer Focused On The Religions Of The World", "question_index": 6, "text": "Fresh AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Mooj Zadie, Thea Chaloner and Seth Kelley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's not so much what it means to me that we became, you know, again, the symbol of apartheid. And I remember, you know, I mean, because South Africans, in those days, they didn't know who I was"}
{"id": "608477810", "date": "2018-05-04", "guest": "Marty Moss-Coane", "title": "As New Lynching Memorial Opens, A Look Back On America's History Of Racial Terrorism", "question_index": 0, "text": "So you're supposed to call him and ask him to do your family photos after seeing this lynching?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One of the postcards that - and the incident - that has really disturbed me with time is the image of Jesse Washington of Waco, Texas. Particularly disturbing is the mass of people - 15,000 people - t"}
{"id": "608477810", "date": "2018-05-04", "guest": "Marty Moss-Coane", "title": "As New Lynching Memorial Opens, A Look Back On America's History Of Racial Terrorism", "question_index": 1, "text": "What was the function of these lynching postcards? Was this supposed to, like, commemorate the hanging that you attended?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. Fifteen thousand people would have been a tremendous amount - percentage of the population of that county to be there at that incident. The mayor's main concern during the incident was that t"}
{"id": "608477810", "date": "2018-05-04", "guest": "Marty Moss-Coane", "title": "As New Lynching Memorial Opens, A Look Back On America's History Of Racial Terrorism", "question_index": 2, "text": "You feel really awful looking at these lynching photographs because they're so brutal. They're so grotesque. It's the ultimate violation of the victims. Why do you want them on exhibit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were - besides the obvious function of sensationalism and the profitable nature of these images for photographers - many of them were sold on the streets in drug stores, through the mail - they s"}
{"id": "608477810", "date": "2018-05-04", "guest": "Marty Moss-Coane", "title": "As New Lynching Memorial Opens, A Look Back On America's History Of Racial Terrorism", "question_index": 3, "text": "Do you think that we can learn a lot about the history of lynchings - who was lynched, who was responsible for the lynchings - by looking at these photographs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, to begin with - to respond to your question, you hit it right on the head. It isn't just the ultimate violation. It was every violation possible. There wasn't any way that was ignored. They were"}
{"id": "608477810", "date": "2018-05-04", "guest": "Marty Moss-Coane", "title": "As New Lynching Memorial Opens, A Look Back On America's History Of Racial Terrorism", "question_index": 4, "text": "There's one photograph from January of 1916, the lynching of John Richards. And Richards is hanging from a tree with his pants pulled down. And several of the guys responsible for the lynching are smiling over an open coffin that is waiting for Richards. And this is a photograph from Goldsboro, N.C. There's pictures of victims who have been burned or shot before or after the hanging. In fact, you say, I think, that shooting the dead body was a common sport.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely. The people who were ashamed of these lynchings left. The people who were disgusted with the theater and the painful torture, brutality - they're not in these photos. The people who are"}
{"id": "608477810", "date": "2018-05-04", "guest": "Marty Moss-Coane", "title": "As New Lynching Memorial Opens, A Look Back On America's History Of Racial Terrorism", "question_index": 5, "text": "Most of the pictures of lynchings are pictures of men being lynched.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Some of the bodies were so full of lead that they were difficult to move. Everyone wanted to participate. In one lynching in Kentucky, they actually sold tickets. I can't remember. It was "}
{"id": "608477810", "date": "2018-05-04", "guest": "Marty Moss-Coane", "title": "As New Lynching Memorial Opens, A Look Back On America's History Of Racial Terrorism", "question_index": 6, "text": "But there are a couple of women. One of them is a picture of Laura Nelson and her son hung side by side from a bridge over a river and the spectators are all lined up on top of the bridge looking down at the swinging bodies. This is from May of 1911 in Okemah, Okla. I'm not sure if I'm pronouncing that right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mm-hmm (ph)."}
{"id": "608477810", "date": "2018-05-04", "guest": "Marty Moss-Coane", "title": "As New Lynching Memorial Opens, A Look Back On America's History Of Racial Terrorism", "question_index": 7, "text": "What do you know about this particular lynching?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right, Okemah."}
{"id": "608477810", "date": "2018-05-04", "guest": "Marty Moss-Coane", "title": "As New Lynching Memorial Opens, A Look Back On America's History Of Racial Terrorism", "question_index": 8, "text": "How did you find out this story? Was it reported in a newspaper? Were you able to find it there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Lauren Nelson and her son and her husband had a little farm outside of Okemah. A sheriff's posse came to their cabin. The sheriff, the deputy sheriff, went inside and - looking for stolen meat. And so"}
{"id": "608477810", "date": "2018-05-04", "guest": "Marty Moss-Coane", "title": "As New Lynching Memorial Opens, A Look Back On America's History Of Racial Terrorism", "question_index": 9, "text": "What do you know about what happened to the bodies of the people who were lynched after they were cut down?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In this case we were lucky because the card had Okemah, Okla., on it, so we could do the research easily. These were widely reported in the press. They sold a lot of newspapers."}
{"id": "608477810", "date": "2018-05-04", "guest": "Marty Moss-Coane", "title": "As New Lynching Memorial Opens, A Look Back On America's History Of Racial Terrorism", "question_index": 10, "text": "What do you think is the importance of understanding the place of lynching in American history?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. The National Memorial for Peace and Justice, which opened last week in Montgomery, Ala., honors the victims of lynchings and documents this period of racial terror. Today on FRESH A"}
{"id": "608477810", "date": "2018-05-04", "guest": "Marty Moss-Coane", "title": "As New Lynching Memorial Opens, A Look Back On America's History Of Racial Terrorism", "question_index": 11, "text": "What were the justifications that white people in the South used for hanging black men? I mean, it's not only taking justice into your own hands, but it's doing it in an incredibly cruel and hideous way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had suspected of course that it was a very powerful influence on black Americans in the years after the Civil War and into the 20th century. But what I found was that it was not only a very intense "}
{"id": "608477810", "date": "2018-05-04", "guest": "Marty Moss-Coane", "title": "As New Lynching Memorial Opens, A Look Back On America's History Of Racial Terrorism", "question_index": 12, "text": "What have you found out about who participated in lynchings, who organized them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And it wasn't only hanging. It was - some of the more spectacular lynchings were actually immolations. But of course hanging was also common, as was just shooting. The chief justification or th"}
{"id": "608477810", "date": "2018-05-04", "guest": "Marty Moss-Coane", "title": "As New Lynching Memorial Opens, A Look Back On America's History Of Racial Terrorism", "question_index": 13, "text": "Is there anything like this that you can find in American history? Like the kind of lynchings that became public spectacles and public events where everybody showed up, maybe brought a picnic lunch and, you know, watched it like it was a movie or a theater event.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies in for Terry Gross. Last Thursday, a national memorial honoring the victims of American lynchings opened in Montgomery, Ala. We're focusing most of today's show on t"}
{"id": "608477810", "date": "2018-05-04", "guest": "Marty Moss-Coane", "title": "As New Lynching Memorial Opens, A Look Back On America's History Of Racial Terrorism", "question_index": 14, "text": "Let's look at some of the opposition to lynching. You write a lot about Ida B. Wells and how she became an anti-lynching activist. And you quote something very eloquent that she said. (Reading) No other nation, civilized or savage, burns its criminals. Only under the stars and stripes is the human Holocaust possible. What was her approach to trying to stop lynching?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can't really think of anything. Probably the closest thing is a religious revival, you know, an outdoor religious revival in the South. For instance, you know, we've all seen these kind of things de"}
{"id": "608477810", "date": "2018-05-04", "guest": "Marty Moss-Coane", "title": "As New Lynching Memorial Opens, A Look Back On America's History Of Racial Terrorism", "question_index": 15, "text": "The NAACP began an anti-lynching campaign in 1909, shortly after it was founded. You write that James Weldon Johnson, the writer, led their anti-lynching legislative effort. How did the NAACP decide that they should try to get federal legislation that would outlaw lynching?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just as the quote you read suggested, she was outraged about lynching. And she was really the first anti-lynching crusader to appear. She got involved in 1892. She was a journalist in Memphis. And thr"}
{"id": "608477810", "date": "2018-05-04", "guest": "Marty Moss-Coane", "title": "As New Lynching Memorial Opens, A Look Back On America's History Of Racial Terrorism", "question_index": 16, "text": "Now, what approach did Congressman Dyer take in his bill to defining and trying to prevent lynching?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I believe it was probably inspired to a certain degree by the success of both the women's suffrage movement and also Prohibition, both of which came in around 18 - I'm sorry - 1919, 1920. And so James"}
{"id": "608477810", "date": "2018-05-04", "guest": "Marty Moss-Coane", "title": "As New Lynching Memorial Opens, A Look Back On America's History Of Racial Terrorism", "question_index": 17, "text": "This - I think this is interesting. You write that one of the reasons why Congress was finally ready to really listen to this anti-lynching bill was that there was a lot of fear in the North that lynching would follow the black migration to the North and that the North would have trouble.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The - well, as I said, before the sense was that this was not murder. In other words, there was a constitutional issue in that the Southern states pointed out that - first of all, the federal governme"}
{"id": "608477810", "date": "2018-05-04", "guest": "Marty Moss-Coane", "title": "As New Lynching Memorial Opens, A Look Back On America's History Of Racial Terrorism", "question_index": 18, "text": "So what legislation - what federal legislation was finally passed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that's right. There was a very famous case in 1911 in a town called Coatesville, Pa. Coatesville was a very typical northern mill town in that it had sent agents into the South to recruit black w"}
{"id": "608477810", "date": "2018-05-04", "guest": "Marty Moss-Coane", "title": "As New Lynching Memorial Opens, A Look Back On America's History Of Racial Terrorism", "question_index": 19, "text": "So we can't really credit federal legislation with stopping lynching. What were the main factors that brought that to an end?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There never was an anti-lynching law passed, actually. They tried many times through the '20s, '30s. The last attempt was during the Second World War. What basically happened is that efforts in Congre"}
{"id": "609697381", "date": "2018-05-09", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "Reporter On New Email Dump That Reveals Secret Inner Workings Of The EPA", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Eric Lipton, spent the weekend reading documents released through the Freedom of Information Act about Scott Pruitt and the Environmental Protection Agency which he heads. Among the things Lipton learned about were the extraordinary efforts by Pruitt's team to shield him from scrutiny from the public and the media. Despite this attempt at secrecy, Pruitt is now facing at least 11 investigations, including ones pertaining to his excessive spending on things like first-class travel, security measures and office furnishings, and the frequent trips he's taken to his home in Oklahoma, all at taxpayer expense. One of the more controversial expenses was the $43,000 Pruitt spent on a soundproof booth in his office. Eric Lipton is an investigative reporter in The New York Times Washington bureau. He's been reporting on the ethical questions surrounding Pruitt and how Pruitt has been rolling back Obama-era environmental regulations. Eric Lipton, welcome back to FRESH AIR. So Scott Pruitt is the subject of 11 investigations, and it seems like the only person supporting him now is President Trump. Why would President Trump want to continue supporting him under the circumstances?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "609697381", "date": "2018-05-09", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "Reporter On New Email Dump That Reveals Secret Inner Workings Of The EPA", "question_index": 1, "text": "So let's talk about one of your articles from this week, that email suggests that Scott Pruitt's biggest fear is having to answer an honest question. And so his staff has done everything they can to prevent that from happening, to protect him from questions, such as at a scheduled town hall meeting for Iowa ranchers. How did the staff help him avoid having to answer questions at what's supposed to be a town hall meeting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One after another, Scott Pruitt has gone after the Obama-era regulations intended to clean the nation's air and water and to limit the pace of climate change, and he's been eliminating them - at least"}
{"id": "609697381", "date": "2018-05-09", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "Reporter On New Email Dump That Reveals Secret Inner Workings Of The EPA", "question_index": 2, "text": "How did you get access to the emails about his travel agenda?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this has been something that's been apparent to reporters that cover the EPA for a year now where every Friday or so we send in a request to the Agency to ask them what's up this week, where is "}
{"id": "609697381", "date": "2018-05-09", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "Reporter On New Email Dump That Reveals Secret Inner Workings Of The EPA", "question_index": 3, "text": "OK. So you found out some of his travel schedule. How does he try to protect himself when he's traveling from actually answering any questions that might challenge him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Sierra Club, an environmental group, had filed a Freedom of Information request. And when they didn't get the response that they wanted, they filed litigation to demand that the Agency provide the"}
{"id": "609697381", "date": "2018-05-09", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "Reporter On New Email Dump That Reveals Secret Inner Workings Of The EPA", "question_index": 4, "text": "You write about how Pruitt was scheduled to give a speech to the National Association of Home Builders, a speech that was going to be closed to the public. And a memo from somebody in the association said, 16 friendly industry leaders will be invited to attend, and that Gerald Howard, the association's top executive, will, quote, \"moderate Q&A on industry issues, set forth in advance and possibly from the audience, who are all industry-friendly and supportive of Mr. Pruitt and his efforts.\" Just the references to industry-friendly in that imply to me that the goal is to - that Pruitt's interests are to be industry-friendly. He's supposed to be regulating industry. But industry is assuring him that these people are industry-friendly, therefore friendly to Pruitt.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, for example, he was going in August to Nevada, Iowa, to meet with a cattle rancher and to talk about his intention to roll back a Obama-era program that's supposed to protect drinking water supp"}
{"id": "609697381", "date": "2018-05-09", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "Reporter On New Email Dump That Reveals Secret Inner Workings Of The EPA", "question_index": 5, "text": "Scott Pruitt has spent a lot of money on protecting himself and on protecting his secrecy. And you've been reporting on this, as well. So let's start with the soundproof booth that he had built in his office at a cost of $43,000. Who was he trying to protect his communication from?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He believes - and, you know, listening to, actually, some of his remarks as he's gone around the country to different places is, he believes that it's a religious belief that, you know, that God has g"}
{"id": "609697381", "date": "2018-05-09", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "Reporter On New Email Dump That Reveals Secret Inner Workings Of The EPA", "question_index": 6, "text": "There are a couple of secure places within the EPA that he could have these kind of secure conversations without concern that he will be overheard or bugged. Right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What we heard from some of the people that worked with him when he first came to the Agency that he was actually worried that maybe there'd been bugs planted in his office by perhaps, you know, critic"}
{"id": "609697381", "date": "2018-05-09", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "Reporter On New Email Dump That Reveals Secret Inner Workings Of The EPA", "question_index": 7, "text": "Was it built?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There are at least two other special areas within the agency's offices there off of Pennsylvania Avenue in Washington that are called SCIFs, which are essentially secure zones where you can have class"}
{"id": "609697381", "date": "2018-05-09", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "Reporter On New Email Dump That Reveals Secret Inner Workings Of The EPA", "question_index": 8, "text": "Do you think it's a little paranoid for him to want this kind of security in his office?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was built, yes."}
{"id": "609697381", "date": "2018-05-09", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "Reporter On New Email Dump That Reveals Secret Inner Workings Of The EPA", "question_index": 9, "text": "Physically hurt him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that basically, from what I've seen in terms of looking at Nino Perrotta who Pruitt made the head of his security in March of 2017, replacing a guy who had served in the Obama administration, "}
{"id": "609697381", "date": "2018-05-09", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "Reporter On New Email Dump That Reveals Secret Inner Workings Of The EPA", "question_index": 10, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Eric Lipton. He's an investigative journalist in the Washington bureau of The New York Times. We'll be back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Physically, yes. And Nino Perrotta really fed on that paranoia and really - you know, depending on your perspective - I mean, really ran with it. Just Monday, we got a copy of a letter that was signed"}
{"id": "609697381", "date": "2018-05-09", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "Reporter On New Email Dump That Reveals Secret Inner Workings Of The EPA", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Eric Lipton, an investigative reporter in the Washington bureau of The New York Times. And he is reporting, more or less full time lately, on Scott Pruitt, the head of the Environmental Protection Agency. There's currently 11 investigations into Scott Pruitt. So we were talking about his former head of security who resigned just a couple of weeks ago, Nino Perrotta. And his - Pruitt's security detail has been very controversial. He has a very large security team that follows him around day and night, when he's off duty and on his private time as well. Tell us about the security detail.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Physically, yes. And Nino Perrotta really fed on that paranoia and really - you know, depending on your perspective - I mean, really ran with it. Just Monday, we got a copy of a letter that was signed"}
{"id": "609697381", "date": "2018-05-09", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "Reporter On New Email Dump That Reveals Secret Inner Workings Of The EPA", "question_index": 12, "text": "Perrotta, the head of security for Pruitt, also refused to have Pruitt stay at hotels recommended by the U.S. Embassy. And instead, he stayed at more expensive hotels that actually had lower security. And then he brought his own private security with him at taxpayer expense. Is that unprecedented?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Before September 11, the EPA administrator never had a full-time security detail at all. After September 11, it was considered normal practice for Cabinet members to have a detail that would protect t"}
{"id": "609697381", "date": "2018-05-09", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "Reporter On New Email Dump That Reveals Secret Inner Workings Of The EPA", "question_index": 13, "text": "Pruitt's security concerns extended to wanting bulletproof furniture and some bulletproofing in his car. What did he want?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wouldn't say unprecedented. But it reflects a certain demand that apparently Pruitt has placed on the EPA since he's been there, which is, you know, for the restaurants, the hotels, the first-class "}
{"id": "609697381", "date": "2018-05-09", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "Reporter On New Email Dump That Reveals Secret Inner Workings Of The EPA", "question_index": 14, "text": "He wanted a bulletproof desk at the entrance to his office. And he also requested, according to members of security detail, a bulletproof SUV, which again were, I mean, the kind of protections that no one had ever contemplated for the EPA. I mean, you can't get into the EPA headquarters unless you pass through security and, you know, metal detectors. So - but he wanted a bulletproof desk at the entrance to his office - not his own desk - that would essentially protect the security guard who sat at this entrance and protected him. And so those were not approved. Neither of those were actually approved. But as I said, I think that Nino Perrotta really fed this paranoia that Pruitt had and facilitated it. And it helped, I think, lead to Perrotta's rise to the head of the security detail and Eric Weese's replacement because Perrotta was willing to kind of answer just as Pruitt wanted. And Perrotta now is under investigation himself, and he has resigned and left the agency.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wouldn't say unprecedented. But it reflects a certain demand that apparently Pruitt has placed on the EPA since he's been there, which is, you know, for the restaurants, the hotels, the first-class "}
{"id": "609697381", "date": "2018-05-09", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "Reporter On New Email Dump That Reveals Secret Inner Workings Of The EPA", "question_index": 15, "text": "Has Pruitt had an unprecedented number of death threats against him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wouldn't say unprecedented. But it reflects a certain demand that apparently Pruitt has placed on the EPA since he's been there, which is, you know, for the restaurants, the hotels, the first-class "}
{"id": "609697381", "date": "2018-05-09", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "Reporter On New Email Dump That Reveals Secret Inner Workings Of The EPA", "question_index": 16, "text": "So Scott Pruitt's former head of security, who resigned under pressure a couple of weeks ago, Nino Perrotta - he used to work with the Secret Service. He also worked with American Media Inc., which owns the tabloid the National Enquirer. And the National - the head of the National Enquirer - the head of American Media Inc. - is close with President Trump, and the National Enquirer has been part of the whole catch-and-kill approach to keeping some Trump scandals quiet. So what was the relationship between Pruitt's head of security and AMI, American Media Inc., which owns the National Enquirer and the head of whom is friends with President Trump?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just Monday, we got a copy of an internal EPA document which shows that since September of 2017, the administrator has been subject of 10 threats, which is somewhat more than Gina McCarthy, who was Ob"}
{"id": "609697381", "date": "2018-05-09", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "Reporter On New Email Dump That Reveals Secret Inner Workings Of The EPA", "question_index": 17, "text": "My guest is Eric Lipton, an investigative reporter in The New York Times' Washington bureau. After a break, we'll talk more about the controversies surrounding Scott Pruitt. And Justin Chang will review the new movie thriller \"Beast.\" I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This was a really weird one when we first heard about it. We knew that Nino Perrotta had an outside consulting firm called Sequoia in which he was doing security consulting at the same time that he wa"}
{"id": "609697381", "date": "2018-05-09", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "Reporter On New Email Dump That Reveals Secret Inner Workings Of The EPA", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're talking about Scott Pruitt, the head of the Environmental Protection Agency, and the questions surrounding his professional ethics and his use of taxpayer dollars for personal benefit. My guest, Eric Lipton, is an investigative reporter in the Washington bureau of The New York Times who has been investigating these issues, drawing on thousands of documents released through the Freedom of Information Act. Lipton has also been reporting on how Pruitt has been rolling back many Obama-era environmental regulations. Eric, we've been covering some of the questions and scandals surrounding Scott Pruitt, but there's 11 investigations currently into Scott Pruitt's behavior at the EPA, so let's pull back for a second. Maybe you could give us some of the bullet points of questions, potential scandals that we haven't covered yet.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This was a really weird one when we first heard about it. We knew that Nino Perrotta had an outside consulting firm called Sequoia in which he was doing security consulting at the same time that he wa"}
{"id": "609697381", "date": "2018-05-09", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "Reporter On New Email Dump That Reveals Secret Inner Workings Of The EPA", "question_index": 19, "text": "I get concerned that we're spending so much time having to investigate the president and his team, that there's so much energy being spent on that that could be going into other things. I'm not saying it shouldn't be investigated. I'm just saying, like, it's a shame that there's so many things that require so much investigation and that require so many teams of people to do the investigating.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. It's just really sort of an incredible list, and it really has your - our heads spinning almost every day to try to keep up with it. But just to go through it quickly, the topics are the travel "}
{"id": "609697381", "date": "2018-05-09", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "Reporter On New Email Dump That Reveals Secret Inner Workings Of The EPA", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yeah, I want to bring up just another thing. This is, like, a small detail. But I - somehow I think it's very revealing. Scott Pruitt wanted to use lights and sirens on his car when he was being driven in his agency vehicle to restaurants and airports. That request was denied. But what do you think that says?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, myself, as a reporter, I would rather write about environmental policy and how it's affecting, you know, the air and the water in the United States. And that's what the EPA is all about. It's "}
{"id": "609697381", "date": "2018-05-09", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "Reporter On New Email Dump That Reveals Secret Inner Workings Of The EPA", "question_index": 21, "text": "And how did you find out about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well again, I mean, it's..."}
{"id": "609697381", "date": "2018-05-09", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "Reporter On New Email Dump That Reveals Secret Inner Workings Of The EPA", "question_index": 22, "text": "Well, you know, that story that you're talking about where Scott Pruitt rented a condo from a lobbyist who had business before the government - before the EPA, there's even more complications to that story because even though the rent was only $50 a night and only on nights when Pruitt was actually using the condo, he fell behind on the rent.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, that's how Nino Perrotta became the head of the security detail - because Eric Weese who had served during the Obama administration as the head of security detail in the early parts of t"}
{"id": "609697381", "date": "2018-05-09", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "Reporter On New Email Dump That Reveals Secret Inner Workings Of The EPA", "question_index": 23, "text": "They had to change the lock - right? - to keep him out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He did. And they had to complain repeatedly. And he not only fell behind on the rent but he wouldn't leave the condo after they wanted him out. And, you know, they had to repeatedly ask him to pay. An"}
{"id": "609697381", "date": "2018-05-09", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "Reporter On New Email Dump That Reveals Secret Inner Workings Of The EPA", "question_index": 24, "text": "So in a related story, back when he was - when Pruitt was a legislator in Oklahoma before he became the state attorney general, he bought a home in a transaction that involved two lobbyists with business before the state of Oklahoma. What happened there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. They actually had to change the lock. It's true. And I've spoken with the lobbyist - you know, a spokesman for the lobbyist who told me - confirmed that that's true. How is that possible, a guy a"}
{"id": "609697381", "date": "2018-05-09", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "Reporter On New Email Dump That Reveals Secret Inner Workings Of The EPA", "question_index": 25, "text": "So let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Eric Lipton. He's an investigative reporter in the Washington bureau of The New York Times. And he's been covering the head of the EPA, Scott Pruitt. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it was 15 years ago. Scott Pruitt, when he was in the state Senate of Oklahoma, before he'd become the attorney general - he was not living in Oklahoma City where the Capitol is. But he was - then "}
{"id": "609697381", "date": "2018-05-09", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "Reporter On New Email Dump That Reveals Secret Inner Workings Of The EPA", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Eric Lipton, an investigative journalist in the Washington bureau of The New York Times, who has been covering Scott Pruitt, the head of the Environmental Protection Agency. I want to ask you about a trip that was planned to Australia - for Scott Pruitt. It's a trip that never happened, but the trip was promoted by Matthew Freedman, who is the head of a consulting firm called Global Impact. And his company was a lobbying company - right? - for foreign governments.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it was 15 years ago. Scott Pruitt, when he was in the state Senate of Oklahoma, before he'd become the attorney general - he was not living in Oklahoma City where the Capitol is. But he was - then "}
{"id": "609697381", "date": "2018-05-09", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "Reporter On New Email Dump That Reveals Secret Inner Workings Of The EPA", "question_index": 27, "text": "OK, but Freedman had previously worked with Paul Manafort...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's not a registered lobbyist. He had been a registered lobbyist some time ago, but he now serves, essentially, as a consultant to major corporations that are trying to do business overseas."}
{"id": "609697381", "date": "2018-05-09", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "Reporter On New Email Dump That Reveals Secret Inner Workings Of The EPA", "question_index": 28, "text": "...And Paul Manafort's political consulting and lobbying firm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's right."}
{"id": "609697381", "date": "2018-05-09", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "Reporter On New Email Dump That Reveals Secret Inner Workings Of The EPA", "question_index": 29, "text": "And in the 1980s, he helped Manafort when Manafort's client was the Philippine dictator Ferdinand Marcos. When I saw Manafort's name in one of your stories, I was wondering, what's the significance of him being connected to Freedman who was setting up a trip for Pruitt?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "609697381", "date": "2018-05-09", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "Reporter On New Email Dump That Reveals Secret Inner Workings Of The EPA", "question_index": 30, "text": "To justify them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For us, it's another one of these extraordinary tangents that we've gone on in writing about Scott Pruitt, that - now we're writing about a guy who had been in the Trump administration - this is Micha"}
{"id": "609697381", "date": "2018-05-09", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "Reporter On New Email Dump That Reveals Secret Inner Workings Of The EPA", "question_index": 31, "text": "And it was a trip that really had no EPA function. They were just trying to drum up reasons for a trip to Australia.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Michael Freedman was one of those guys who was finding him things to do. And the emails that we've received, again, through open records requests - Freedom of Information; thank you so much that "}
{"id": "609697381", "date": "2018-05-09", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "Reporter On New Email Dump That Reveals Secret Inner Workings Of The EPA", "question_index": 32, "text": "Let's look at a trip Scott Pruitt took to Italy last June. What was the official business, if any, he was supposed to be doing there, and what did he actually do when he got there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were searching for reasons. You could see it in the emails themselves. They were trying - they were searching for justification for the trip. And yeah, but the trip was more - it was a premise th"}
{"id": "609697381", "date": "2018-05-09", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "Reporter On New Email Dump That Reveals Secret Inner Workings Of The EPA", "question_index": 33, "text": "Is it typical to meet with foreign officials like that if you're the head of the EPA?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I actually have in front of me here a copy of his agenda from that trip, which was June 8 through June 10 of 2017. And we just got this full agenda last week through the Freedom of Information Act. An"}
{"id": "609697381", "date": "2018-05-09", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "Reporter On New Email Dump That Reveals Secret Inner Workings Of The EPA", "question_index": 34, "text": "Before Scott Pruitt even came to the Environmental Protection Agency - when he was attorney general in the state of Oklahoma, he sued the EPA 14 times. What did he sue over?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, you know, Gina McCarthy went to Italy for the G7 meeting and met with foreign officials. So it's not unusual for the EPA administrator to make foreign trips when there are meetings of the head"}
{"id": "609697381", "date": "2018-05-09", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "Reporter On New Email Dump That Reveals Secret Inner Workings Of The EPA", "question_index": 35, "text": "I guess we shouldn't be surprised because that's probably why he was appointed. It's not like it was a secret that he'd sued the EPA so many times.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's pretty incredible. You know, again, I was writing about Scott Pruitt back in that period. And if you go through the 14 lawsuits - which I have each of them individually. Basically one after anoth"}
{"id": "609697381", "date": "2018-05-09", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "Reporter On New Email Dump That Reveals Secret Inner Workings Of The EPA", "question_index": 36, "text": "You started following Scott Pruitt back when he was attorney general of the state of Oklahoma. How did you start following him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That is why he was appointed. He was he was literally nicknamed the tip of the spear in terms of going after the Obama regulatory agenda. And he became a champion among conservatives and anti-regulato"}
{"id": "609697381", "date": "2018-05-09", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "Reporter On New Email Dump That Reveals Secret Inner Workings Of The EPA", "question_index": 37, "text": "So just on a more personal note, when you have to spend your weekend going through thousands of emails about Scott Pruitt and the EPA, what's your mixture of feelings? I mean, it's quite a scoop. You've gotten these documents through the Freedom of Information Act. But it's really time consuming, and it's going to eat up your entire weekend.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was writing about state attorneys general and what I perceived as their conflicts of interest as they were taking millions of dollars in contributions from companies that they were investigating - p"}
{"id": "609697381", "date": "2018-05-09", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "Reporter On New Email Dump That Reveals Secret Inner Workings Of The EPA", "question_index": 38, "text": "Well, I want to thank your wife and children for loaning part of you out", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it's gotten pretty bad. And I realize it's gotten bad. And I have three kids, including a newborn daughter who's only a month old. So it's been incredibly challenging. I was up feeding her at 5 o'"}
{"id": "609697381", "date": "2018-05-09", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "Reporter On New Email Dump That Reveals Secret Inner Workings Of The EPA", "question_index": 39, "text": "so that you can do your work. I want to thank you so much for talking with us. And thank you for your reporting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it's gotten pretty bad. And I realize it's gotten bad. And I have three kids, including a newborn daughter who's only a month old. So it's been incredibly challenging. I was up feeding her at 5 o'"}
{"id": "609697381", "date": "2018-05-09", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "Reporter On New Email Dump That Reveals Secret Inner Workings Of The EPA", "question_index": 40, "text": "Eric Lipton is an investigative reporter in the Washington bureau of The New York Times. After a break, Justin Chang will review the new movie thriller \"Beast.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "610385205", "date": "2018-05-11", "guest": null, "title": "How Black Leaders Unwittingly Contributed To The Era Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 0, "text": "James Forman Jr., welcome to FRESH AIR. So your book starts with you defending a 15-year-old back when you were a public defender. This was in Washington, D.C. - a 15-year-old who had pleaded guilty to possessing a handgun and a small amount of marijuana, enough to use but not to sell. You argued for probation. The judge gave your client what you describe as the Martin Luther King speech. What is the speech? JAMES FORMAN JR.: So this speech is where the judge starts off by saying, you know, Mr. Forman has told me that you've had a hard life and you deserve a second chance. Let me tell you about hard. Let me tell you about Jim Crow - because the judge, Curtis Walker - he had grown up under Jim Crow, so he knew that era. And he proceeded to tell Brandon about what that was like to grow up with separate water fountains and unequal access to jobs, et cetera. And then he wrapped up, and he said, so I know you've had it hard, but people fought, marched and died for your freedom. Dr. King died for your freedom. And he didn't die for you to be running and gunning and thugging (ph) and carrying on and embarrassing your community and embarrassing your family. No, son, that was not his dream at all. So I hope Mr. Forman is right. I hope you turn it around. But right now actions have consequences, and your consequence is Oak Hill. And he locked him up.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, editor of the website TV Worth Watching, sitting in for Terry Gross. Today's guest is James Forman Jr., who won the Pulitzer Prize in general nonfiction for his"}
{"id": "610385205", "date": "2018-05-11", "guest": null, "title": "How Black Leaders Unwittingly Contributed To The Era Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 1, "text": "What do you object to about that speech? FORMAN JR.: I object not so much to the speech because that message that people have struggled for your freedom - right? - that is a message that is so powerful in the African-American community, right? We use that in our homes and in church, in barbershops. But - and it's appropriate, I think, even sometimes in court. It wasn't that I objected to the speech as it was I objected to the sentence. I objected to what followed. The problem for me was that then he locked him up. And for me, it was so - it was a stunning moment because I had come to court as a public defender, imagining myself as the civil rights figure in the story. You know, I was doing the job of a public defender because my parents had met in the civil rights movement. They'd met in SNCC, Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, and I was now a descendant of that movement. I had had all kinds of opportunities. But at the same time, I could see that other African-American men, other black men in my community and black women were being incarcerated at unimaginable rates. So I was taking the job of defending Brandon because I thought it was an extension of the struggle. And now the judge was invoking Martin Luther King for exactly the opposite outcome. So that for me was the power and the drama, I guess, of that moment.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, editor of the website TV Worth Watching, sitting in for Terry Gross. Today's guest is James Forman Jr., who won the Pulitzer Prize in general nonfiction for his"}
{"id": "610385205", "date": "2018-05-11", "guest": null, "title": "How Black Leaders Unwittingly Contributed To The Era Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 2, "text": "That story also helps frame your book's main question, which is, why have African-Americans in the justice system - like this judge - taken the position of a kind of harsh approach to sentencing? FORMAN JR.: Yeah, that's exactly right. That case - I mean, when that case ended and Brandon was sentenced - and I went back to see him in the cell block, and there were three other young black men there with him. And I thought about his mother and his grandmother. But it was also clear to me when I thought it through that the judge wasn't the only one who disagreed with us because in that courtroom, there were a number of other African-American actors. The prosecutor was African-American. The courtroom clerk was African-American. And I started to think about the fact that the city council that passed the gun and the drug laws that Brandon was sentenced under was a majority African-American council. The police force in D.C. was majority black. And so I felt like there was a story that had to be told of people like the judge and people like the police officer who made their arrests or the city council who passed the laws. What were the pressures that they were facing, right? What were the constraints that they were under? And what were the choices that they made? I wanted to try to tell that story, you know, compassionately and humanely and put myself - this was one of the hardest parts of writing the book - is putting myself in the shoes of somebody who is making choices that I thought in retrospect - and in the case of the judge, I thought in the moment - were wrong.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, editor of the website TV Worth Watching, sitting in for Terry Gross. Today's guest is James Forman Jr., who won the Pulitzer Prize in general nonfiction for his"}
{"id": "610385205", "date": "2018-05-11", "guest": null, "title": "How Black Leaders Unwittingly Contributed To The Era Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 3, "text": "So just to back up a second - what kind of sentence would you have liked to see the judge give your client compared to what the judge actually did? FORMAN JR.: Well, I would have liked him to put Brandon on probation. It was his first arrest. And I'm somebody who believes that our prisons, whether they're juvenile prisons or adult prisons, should be reserved for people who are true threats to society. And I don't think that Brandon was one. He was a kid growing up in a tough neighborhood. He made a mistake. He picked up a gun that he shouldn't have picked up. He told me that he had it for protection. Even if that's not true, even if he was starting to maybe get sucked into a group of kids in the neighborhood that was selling drugs or something along those lines - even if that was true, I didn't think a place like a juvenile prison was the place for him. But the other thing is it's not just the decision, right? My frustration is not only with the choice to put him in prison, but it's also with all of the other aspects of the system because the judge - judges will often answer your question with, well, he needed to be locked up because the other alternative was probation. But they don't really confront the fact that the place that he was being sent - Oak Hill, this juvenile facility - was a dungeon. It was a violent place with drugs and violence rampant, with no functioning school, with no mental health programs or job training programs. And so I don't think - when we think about our criminal justice system, I don't think we can imagine choices in isolation. We don't think about the quality of the place that he's being sent. What I'm trying to argue in the book is that we have to look at this system as a whole, and we have to look at all of its dysfunctions. And only until we do that will we really understand the damage that it's doing to people's lives.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, editor of the website TV Worth Watching, sitting in for Terry Gross. Today's guest is James Forman Jr., who won the Pulitzer Prize in general nonfiction for his"}
{"id": "610385205", "date": "2018-05-11", "guest": null, "title": "How Black Leaders Unwittingly Contributed To The Era Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 4, "text": "You know, since the larger question in your book is asking us about how so many leaders of the African-American community came out for tougher measures against crime helping to lead this era of mass incarceration, you're also arguing against the claim that so many African-Americans focus on police crimes against black people, but they don't focus on black-on-black crime. You're trying to dispel that idea. FORMAN JR.: I think when you look at the book, you will see page after page, year after year, decade after decade of agitation, of pleading, of demanding, of saying, I don't feel safe on my streets - not from police officers. That's part of it. But mainly I don't feel safe on my streets because there's drug dealers on the corner. I can't take my kid to the park after school because they're shooting. And they're leaving dirty syringes in the park. And nobody's cleaning them up. I demand that you, the leadership of my city - D.C. in this case, but black leaders nationally face these same demands - I demand that you do something about it. So that claim - right? - that we hear from conservatives overwhelmingly that black America only cares about police violence - it couldn't be more untrue. And the next time somebody says it - Rudy Giuliani's on television, you know, still saying it. I just want someone to put this book in his face and say stop saying that. Stop repeating that lie. Here's proof that it's a lie.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, editor of the website TV Worth Watching, sitting in for Terry Gross. Today's guest is James Forman Jr., who won the Pulitzer Prize in general nonfiction for his"}
{"id": "610385205", "date": "2018-05-11", "guest": null, "title": "How Black Leaders Unwittingly Contributed To The Era Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 5, "text": "But you say, you know, many of the same people who were advocating for better policing of African-American communities and, you know, more help in protecting corners from drug dealers - these people were also asking for access to better jobs, better schools, better housing. FORMAN JR.: People want more police and more prosecutors. Sometimes some people even say, we need more prisons. But they also say, we need more job training. We need more housing. We need better schools. We need funding for drug treatment, for mental health treatment. We need a national gun control policy. We need a Marshall Plan for urban America. We need the federal government to do for black communities in America what it did for Europe after World War II - to rebuild, to reinvest, to revitalize, right? That's the claim. But instead of all of the above, the black community historically has gotten one of the above. And the one of the above is law enforcement.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, editor of the website TV Worth Watching, sitting in for Terry Gross. Today's guest is James Forman Jr., who won the Pulitzer Prize in general nonfiction for his"}
{"id": "610385205", "date": "2018-05-11", "guest": null, "title": "How Black Leaders Unwittingly Contributed To The Era Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 6, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is James Forman Jr. He's a former public defender who's now a professor at Yale Law School. He's the author of \"Locking Up Our Own: Crime And Punishment In Black America.\" We'll be back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, editor of the website TV Worth Watching, sitting in for Terry Gross. Today's guest is James Forman Jr., who won the Pulitzer Prize in general nonfiction for his"}
{"id": "610385205", "date": "2018-05-11", "guest": null, "title": "How Black Leaders Unwittingly Contributed To The Era Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 7, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is James Forman Jr. He's the author of \"Locking Up Our Own: Crime And Punishment In Black America.\" He's a former public defender in Washington, D.C., and is now a professor of law at Yale Law School. Is there an initiative you can describe that you thought started out, like, either idealistically or very practically minded as a way to honestly try to help with crime in the African-American community, to protect African-Americans from crime, that ended up being used in such a way as to actually hurt the African-American community? FORMAN JR.: Absolutely. There's more than one. I mean, the first one probably that comes to mind is the pretext policing or investigatory stops initiative unveiled in the early 1990s and led by, engineered by, supported by Eric Holder, who was the first African-American U.S. attorney in Washington, D.C. Most Americans now know about stop and frisk. Investigatory stops or pretext stops are kind of like the automobile version of those. The police are going out. They're targeting people who they think may have guns, and they're using the traffic laws, which are very broad - they're using the traffic laws as a pretext. So I see you driving one mile an hour, five miles an hour over the speed limit. I'm going to pull you over. You stop at the stop sign for too long. I'm going to pull you over. You stop for too short. I'm going to pull you over. Your windows are tinted too dark. I'm going to pull you over. And under Holder's leadership, the D.C. Police Department - they start pulling over cars. And their goal is to get guns. And that's a worthy goal. But the way they unveil this policy, when you consider other aspects of our society and of our criminal justice system, lead to many terrible outcomes. So when they pull the car over, they ask for consent to search. Over 95, 98 percent of people give consent to search. Most people don't think they can not consent. And one of the people that I represented in a case, a woman named Sandra Dozier - she was driving in one of the neighborhoods that was targeted by this pretext stop regime. She had a small amount of marijuana - $15-20 worth - in her car. She's pulled over. They start asking her about guns. She says, I don't have any guns. They say, well, we can search - right? - just to make sure. And she's thinking, OK, well, this will get over quickly, and I can't really say no, so yeah. They search. They don't find any guns, but they do find the marijuana. And she says, I have a job. Please don't arrest me. They don't want to make this marijuana bust. That's not - they're looking for guns, so they don't arrest her. They give her a citation to appear in court a couple weeks later - pretty reasonable. She's able to go to work the next day, keep her job. Then she gets to court. The U.S. attorney's office no-papers the case. They dismiss it. They don't want to prosecute this $10-15 worth of marijuana. So in one sense, you would say, well, the criminal justice system has been fair sort of. But then to get off probation at her employer - she's a probationary, a new employee - and she has to have a certificate of clean record to be able to get off probation and become a full-time employee. She goes to the courthouse to get the printout, and the arrest somehow shows up. She presents it to her supervisor, who's a decent guy, but says, we have a policy. It's not my policy. If you're arrested while you're on probationary status, we can't hire you. You lose your job. So she was fired. And that's how I meet her because she comes to my office to tell me this story. And I think maybe I can undo it. So I get the guy on the phone, the supervisor, and I speak to him. And he's an understanding person. But he says, there's nothing I can do. It's company policy. We can't keep her on the job.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, editor of the website TV Worth Watching, sitting in for Terry Gross. Today's guest is James Forman Jr., who won the Pulitzer Prize in general nonfiction for his"}
{"id": "610385205", "date": "2018-05-11", "guest": null, "title": "How Black Leaders Unwittingly Contributed To The Era Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 8, "text": "So here's somebody who loses their job, which is their way up, the way to - their way to a better life. And they're losing their job because they were caught up in a search for guns, which they didn't have. So they're just kind of collateral damage, in a way. FORMAN JR.: Absolutely. And there's so many people like them. And when Sandra Dozier left my office that day, she happened, accidentally, to leave behind some files, some paperwork. And when I looked through it, she had her certificate of employee of the month at an internship that she had gotten. And she had her high school diploma. And she had gone to a high school where very few people - you know, with a 50 percent dropout rate. So one version of her story - right? - is that she's somebody with grit. She's a striver. She stood on lines for - at job fairs - for hours in the rain. She's finally gotten a job in a community that has too few of them. She's doing great at her job. Her supervisor's a fan of her work ethic. But because of this pretext regime to look for guns and because we target that regime at the poorest low-income neighborhoods which have the highest crime rates - again, justifiable in some ways. You can see why somebody like Holder would've thought that made sense. But down the line, you get thousands, and across the country, hundreds of thousands and millions of Sandra Doziers - of people who, because of unequal enforcement choices, have ended up so much worse off than they ever would've been otherwise.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, editor of the website TV Worth Watching, sitting in for Terry Gross. Today's guest is James Forman Jr., who won the Pulitzer Prize in general nonfiction for his"}
{"id": "610385205", "date": "2018-05-11", "guest": null, "title": "How Black Leaders Unwittingly Contributed To The Era Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 9, "text": "You point out in your book that 95 percent of American prisoners are in state, county and local jails. Around 85 percent of law enforcement officers are state and local, not federal. Most crime policy is set by state and local officials. So you say, you know, mass incarceration is going to have to be dismantled piecemeal and locally like the way it was constructed. But nevertheless, I want to know what you think of the direction the Trump administration is heading in, in terms of law enforcement. FORMAN JR.: Well, just one correction - I think the number is 88 percent of prisoners are state, county, local, not 95 percent. But either way, it's a very high number and - over 85 percent. I think it's 88 percent. And that's why I do believe that this has got to be a local fight. But you asked about the Trump administration. And there's no question that Donald Trump and Jeff Sessions are leading us in a disastrous direction on criminal justice matters. Jeff Sessions, in particular - I mean, I don't think President Trump is especially focused on this issue on a day-to-day basis. He occasionally gives kind of vile speeches on the topic. But Jeff Sessions - this is his work. And Jeff Sessions is somebody that came up in the '80s and early '90s and was taught a particular way of thinking about how to fight crime. And while lots of people have evolved in their thinking - somebody like Eric Holder has evolved in his thinking on criminal justice issues - Jeff Sessions has not. You know, he's stuck in this mindset that is blind to the damaging consequences that these incredibly aggressive approaches have to communities of color, in particular, but to communities nationwide. And he continues to say things that are patently untrue. You know, recently, he said in a speech that marijuana is only slightly less awful than heroin. Well, that's wrong. And it's wrong in a deadly way. There were 13,000 deaths from heroin overdoses last year, and there were zero from marijuana. So even to begin to compare the two drugs is inane. But I do think that we shouldn't be misled. So people that were focused on this issue - wanting to make the criminal justice system more humane - right? - less brutal, more forgiving - we should always remember that the fight is going to be at the local level. And there, we continue to win. So the same election that brought Jeff Sessions also brought something that's a first in my lifetime, which was a number of progressive prosecutors at the local and county level ran in races and won in Florida, in Texas, in Alabama, in Denver, in - Kim Foxx in Chicago - and then just six weeks ago, Larry Krasner, a civil rights attorney in Philadelphia. I mean, a civil rights lawyer didn't run for local prosecutor 10 years ago. And if they did, they barely got any votes, and yet he won. And he won on a campaign, and these others ran and won on campaigns of, we're locking up too many people. And my predecessor has helped to convict people wrongfully. And we need to rethink the war on drugs. And mandatory minimums are an obstacle to justice, right? These kinds of claims you never heard from prosecutors 10 or 15 years ago. That's the direction I actually think the country is continuing to go in, even as Sessions and Trump try to push us in the other direction.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, editor of the website TV Worth Watching, sitting in for Terry Gross. Today's guest is James Forman Jr., who won the Pulitzer Prize in general nonfiction for his"}
{"id": "610385205", "date": "2018-05-11", "guest": null, "title": "How Black Leaders Unwittingly Contributed To The Era Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 10, "text": "I'd like to talk about you. You have an incredibly interesting background. I'm talking about your parents here. So you're the son of James Forman, who is the former head of SNCC, the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, which, in the '60s, was one of the most important civil rights groups. It was SNCC that Andrew Goodman, James Chaney and Michael Schwerner were volunteering for when they were murdered in Mississippi during Freedom Summer. Your mother, Constancia Romilly, was the daughter of the journalist and anti-fascist activist Jessica Mitford, who is most famous in America for her book \"The American Way Of Death,\" which is an expose of the funeral industry. So those are two really interesting parents", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's interview with author James Forman Jr. His book \"Locking Up Our Own: Crime And Punishment In Black America\" won the Pulitzer Prize in"}
{"id": "610385205", "date": "2018-05-11", "guest": null, "title": "How Black Leaders Unwittingly Contributed To The Era Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 11, "text": "to have. FORMAN JR.:", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's interview with author James Forman Jr. His book \"Locking Up Our Own: Crime And Punishment In Black America\" won the Pulitzer Prize in"}
{"id": "610385205", "date": "2018-05-11", "guest": null, "title": "How Black Leaders Unwittingly Contributed To The Era Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 12, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's interview with author James Forman Jr. His book \"Locking Up Our Own: Crime And Punishment In Black America\" won the Pulitzer Prize in"}
{"id": "610385205", "date": "2018-05-11", "guest": null, "title": "How Black Leaders Unwittingly Contributed To The Era Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 13, "text": "Did they stay together? Did you grow up with both of them? FORMAN JR.: No, they didn't. They divorced when I was 7 years old. But I did grow up with both of them in the sense that they both remain very involved in my life. So my brother and I - we were raised by my mother. But we spent summers with my dad, and we would spend Christmas holidays with him, as well. And they were together in one other way, as well, which is that they stayed connected around us. So in my entire life - I mean, my dad has passed away now. My mom is still alive. I never heard my dad say one bad word about my mother, and the reverse is true.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's interview with author James Forman Jr. His book \"Locking Up Our Own: Crime And Punishment In Black America\" won the Pulitzer Prize in"}
{"id": "610385205", "date": "2018-05-11", "guest": null, "title": "How Black Leaders Unwittingly Contributed To The Era Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 14, "text": "You talked about the Martin Luther King speech at the beginning of our interview and how frustrating you found that inspirational speech of like, Martin Luther King, like, fought and died for your freedom. And what are you doing with your freedom? You know, you're acting like a thug, and, therefore, you're going to pay the consequences. Did your father have a version of that speech that he gave you? FORMAN JR.: No, that was the - maybe - you know, I hadn't thought about it until you just put the question that way. But maybe one of the reasons I found it so frustrating was that I was raised by somebody who knew Dr. King", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's interview with author James Forman Jr. His book \"Locking Up Our Own: Crime And Punishment In Black America\" won the Pulitzer Prize in"}
{"id": "610385205", "date": "2018-05-11", "guest": null, "title": "How Black Leaders Unwittingly Contributed To The Era Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 15, "text": "well and marched with him and strategized with him and fought with him and disagreed with him and, you know - and made up with him and all of that. And he didn't have that speech. I never heard him saying that about the kids in the neighborhood - you know, that maybe we're not in school in the middle of the day. And you were wondering, like, you know, why isn't that kid in school? But, no, he didn't have that speech at all. I mean, one of the things that was amazing about my father was he got the ways in which oppression changed over time. So he really got how the kids that I was representing in D.C. were locked out of society and in ways similar to how people were locked out of society in the Jim Crow years, even if a lot of the details were different. But there were also some similarities. And he, I think, felt that and raised us to understand that. So, no, he didn't have any of that speech - just the opposite.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's interview with author James Forman Jr. His book \"Locking Up Our Own: Crime And Punishment In Black America\" won the Pulitzer Prize in"}
{"id": "610385205", "date": "2018-05-11", "guest": null, "title": "How Black Leaders Unwittingly Contributed To The Era Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 16, "text": "After your father left as the head of SNCC, the group considered excluding white members. Now, your mother was a white member of SNCC. Do you know if your father ever got heat for marrying a white woman? FORMAN JR.: Oh, I know that he did. I know that he did from things that my mom, in particular, told us about years later. It was hard. I know that that was a huge point of pressure on their marriage. I mean, there were other things that were happening. They were - in the early 1970s right before they split up, that was also the period when, you know, the FBI was putting incredible pressure on civil rights groups through the counter-intelligence program or the COINTELPRO program. And they were fomenting lies and distrust. So they had a hard time in those years for lots of reasons. But I know, from my mom in particular, that that was one. And I know that that was very painful for her - you know, very hard for her, very hard for both of them, I think. Yeah. Yeah, it was hard.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's interview with author James Forman Jr. His book \"Locking Up Our Own: Crime And Punishment In Black America\" won the Pulitzer Prize in"}
{"id": "610385205", "date": "2018-05-11", "guest": null, "title": "How Black Leaders Unwittingly Contributed To The Era Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 17, "text": "Since you're the product of their relationship, did the pressure that he was experiencing to not be with a white woman - and did all the distrust in that part of the civil rights movement of white people affect your own identity? FORMAN JR.: I don't think so. The day to day that I was being raised with was a more universal approach to thinking about humanity. I was raised more in that way. And I guess the other thing that's important to know about my own identity, as I think about it, is a decision that my mom made when I was in seventh grade, which I think in some ways is the most important decision that she made raising me and my brother - period - which was she decided to move from New York City to Atlanta. And the reason that she made that decision was she felt like we were living in a mostly white world in New York. And I had gotten accepted into this high school in New York - Hunter College High School, which was a 7th-through-12th-grade school, which was a very prominent school. But it was almost all white. And she felt like - she was worried about our racial identity. You know, I'm light-skinned. My brother's a little bit darker than me. But depending on who I'm with, you might - there's people, particularly people who aren't black, who might not even know that I am black. And my mom moved us to Atlanta in part because she had lived there in the '60s with my dad. So she knew folks there. She knew there was a strong black community in Atlanta. And she wanted us to grow up in a black environment. I mean, she told us later. I wanted you to grow up in a city where when you opened the newspaper in the morning, and you looked at the headlines of the local government and local business leaders, you were looking at pictures of black people. She wanted us to be raised in that environment because she thought it would form and shape our racial identity - not just how we thought of ourselves, right? That we thought of ourselves as black - but also how we thought of the black community because the amazing thing about growing up in Atlanta is there is no one way to be black in Atlanta, right? In a city that has so many African-American people, I would go to school, and the jocks were black. The nerds were black. The artistic - you know, the artsy kids were black. The band-camp kids were black. The thugs were black - like, everybody was black. So there wasn't a way to perform that went along with being black. And that, I think, was very powerful and liberating for me as a child 'cause it meant I got to be who I was, which was a nerdy kid. And nobody thought, oh, well, you're not black if you're reading books.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's interview with author James Forman Jr. His book \"Locking Up Our Own: Crime And Punishment In Black America\" won the Pulitzer Prize in"}
{"id": "610385205", "date": "2018-05-11", "guest": null, "title": "How Black Leaders Unwittingly Contributed To The Era Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 18, "text": "So I'm thinking what different worlds your parents came from. Your father grew up in Mississippi. And at the age of 8, when he didn't say, like, good morning, ma'am or thank you, ma'am to a shopkeeper, he was threatened with being lynched, whereas your mother grew up in England before moving to America. And I think she was - you know, Jessica Mitford was her mother. And I think she - her father, I think, was related with the nephew by marriage to Winston Churchill. FORMAN JR.: That's right.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's interview with author James Forman Jr. His book \"Locking Up Our Own: Crime And Punishment In Black America\" won the Pulitzer Prize in"}
{"id": "610385205", "date": "2018-05-11", "guest": null, "title": "How Black Leaders Unwittingly Contributed To The Era Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 19, "text": "Yeah, so it's, like, really...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's interview with author James Forman Jr. His book \"Locking Up Our Own: Crime And Punishment In Black America\" won the Pulitzer Prize in"}
{"id": "610385205", "date": "2018-05-11", "guest": null, "title": "How Black Leaders Unwittingly Contributed To The Era Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 20, "text": "It's quite a contrast in terms of the two different sides of the family and what they were exposed to when they were growing up. So I'm just - I don't even know what my question is but just thinking about being - you know, having two - such different kinds of family trees. FORMAN JR.: You know, it's funny that you would ask that question because I've always thought of it as just the opposite. Like, I've always thought of there being more similarities in the family trees than differences. And I guess I'll say why, which is my grandmother - Jessica Mitford, right? - she grew up in this sort of, you know, kind of aristocratic landed gentry and, more importantly, kind of fascist family right before World War II. And she decided that she wasn't going to support Hitler as many of her family members were but that she was going to go fight against and resist. She went to Spain - right? - to fight against the fascists in Spain. And then she moved to the United States in the 1940s. And my mom was actually born in the United States. But my grandmother moved to the United States in the 1940s, and she became a communist. Why? Because she saw the communists at the time as the people that were fighting for equality, in particular for racial equality. So I've always thought of both sides of my family as freedom fighters, as people that see a kind of inequality in front of them and want to resist it. And so I guess you're right if you think about it in the demographic way, right? If you think about kind of race and class background and region, they're different. But if you think about it in terms of impulses - political impulses, they're much more similar.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's interview with author James Forman Jr. His book \"Locking Up Our Own: Crime And Punishment In Black America\" won the Pulitzer Prize in"}
{"id": "610385205", "date": "2018-05-11", "guest": null, "title": "How Black Leaders Unwittingly Contributed To The Era Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 21, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is James Forman Jr. He's a former public defender who's now a professor at Yale Law School. He's the author of \"Locking Up Our Own: Crime And Punishment In Black America.\" We'll be back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's interview with author James Forman Jr. His book \"Locking Up Our Own: Crime And Punishment In Black America\" won the Pulitzer Prize in"}
{"id": "610385205", "date": "2018-05-11", "guest": null, "title": "How Black Leaders Unwittingly Contributed To The Era Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is James Forman Jr. He's the author of \"Locking Up Our Own: Crime And Punishment In Black America.\" He's also a professor of law at Yale Law School and a former public defender. You clerked for Sandra Day O'Connor. I guess this is when you got out of law school. FORMAN JR.: Yes, yes. I clerked for a judge, William Norris, on the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals right after law school and then for Justice O'Connor the next year. And that's a common trajectory - to do two clerkships in that way.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's interview with author James Forman Jr. His book \"Locking Up Our Own: Crime And Punishment In Black America\" won the Pulitzer Prize in"}
{"id": "610385205", "date": "2018-05-11", "guest": null, "title": "How Black Leaders Unwittingly Contributed To The Era Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 23, "text": "Did you have a lot of political differences with her? FORMAN JR.: I did. That was a hard, hard year. She's a wonderful person. And I loved how she treated me as an individual, as a clerk. She still to this day, you know, asks after my family when I see her. And she's connected to her clerks in that way. She cares about us, and she cares about our success. But I disagreed with her on most issues that came before the court having to do with civil rights or criminal law and criminal justice. And...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's interview with author James Forman Jr. His book \"Locking Up Our Own: Crime And Punishment In Black America\" won the Pulitzer Prize in"}
{"id": "610385205", "date": "2018-05-11", "guest": null, "title": "How Black Leaders Unwittingly Contributed To The Era Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 24, "text": "How would you handle that with her? FORMAN JR.: Well, she predicted it. So she asked in the interview - the last question she had for me in the interview was - she said, you know, from looking at your resume, it appears that you may disagree with me on some issues. And I'm curious to know from your standpoint how you would handle that as my law clerk. And I told her that - what I ended up doing. I mean, I told her that I will argue with you. I'll tell you the truth about what I think. I will try to persuade you. But at the end of the day, you are the justice, and I'm the law clerk. And if I'm taking this job, I'm agreeing to help you do your work, right? I'm helping - if you decide to come out the other way and assign me the opinion, then I'll write the best opinion I can for you.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's interview with author James Forman Jr. His book \"Locking Up Our Own: Crime And Punishment In Black America\" won the Pulitzer Prize in"}
{"id": "610385205", "date": "2018-05-11", "guest": null, "title": "How Black Leaders Unwittingly Contributed To The Era Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 25, "text": "Did you have to do that? FORMAN JR.: And that's what I told - yeah. Oh, that's what I told her I would do, and I did have to do that.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's interview with author James Forman Jr. His book \"Locking Up Our Own: Crime And Punishment In Black America\" won the Pulitzer Prize in"}
{"id": "610385205", "date": "2018-05-11", "guest": null, "title": "How Black Leaders Unwittingly Contributed To The Era Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 26, "text": "So how hard was that... FORMAN JR.: I did have to do it.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's interview with author James Forman Jr. His book \"Locking Up Our Own: Crime And Punishment In Black America\" won the Pulitzer Prize in"}
{"id": "610385205", "date": "2018-05-11", "guest": null, "title": "How Black Leaders Unwittingly Contributed To The Era Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 27, "text": "...To write an opinion that you didn't believe in? FORMAN JR.: It was hard, but it was the job. The hardest part wasn't even writing the opinions, though that was bad. But the hardest part was the death penalty because the way the Supreme Court works is that the different judges are responsible for different circuits. And Justice O'Connor was responsible for the 9th Circuit. And what that meant was if there was any request from somebody who was scheduled to be executed - a last-minute request for a stay of execution or a pause on the execution - it first had to go to that justice. And that meant it first had to go to one of the justice's four law clerks. So we knew from the day we started that every fourth night, we were potentially on duty for any stays of execution. And I only got one. There were only, I think, three or four from the 9th Circuit that year. But I was only on duty one night when somebody filed a last-minute stay. But what that meant was I had to call the justice, discuss with her the issues that were raised in the stay. And then she had to make a recommendation to the rest of the court. And then I had to circulate that recommendation. And this was a case where the only real basis for the stay was if you didn't believe in the death penalty, which I didn't. And I told her that. And she said right, but what about bases that I might find, you know, colorable under law? And there weren't any that I could see. And I presented it to her. And she said, well, write an order recommending that we deny the stay. So I wrote it, and I circulated it to all of the other justices. Their responses came back. And the request was denied. And then I had to sign the order for Justice O'Connor. And then I had to walk the order to the fax machine, which is what we used then, in our marshal's office in the middle of the night, knowing that it was going to be faxed to the warden in the state where the execution was scheduled to take place and that, upon receipt of the fax, they would go through with the execution. And I did it, and I just went home and cried for hours.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's interview with author James Forman Jr. His book \"Locking Up Our Own: Crime And Punishment In Black America\" won the Pulitzer Prize in"}
{"id": "610385205", "date": "2018-05-11", "guest": null, "title": "How Black Leaders Unwittingly Contributed To The Era Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 28, "text": "So I can see how this was a very difficult year for you, like you said. Was it helpful to work with a justice who you disagreed with? Did you get insights into the opposing point of view that have been helpful - or to humanize the opposing point of view so you just didn't see it as, like, the other point of view? You saw it as, like, an individual who you respected who had that point of view. FORMAN JR.: I think I've always had that orientation to try to understand the humanity behind people with whom I disagree. I don't know if it's from childhood or parents, but I've had it. And I think that year did help because, like I said, I liked and like Justice O'Connor a lot. And I also saw over time how some of her positions evolved. You know, when I was clerking for her - was more in the middle of her career. And over the years, she became known as being somewhat more moderate in her approaches, right? And she ended up, you know, writing an opinion upholding affirmative action that might not have been so easy to predict years earlier. And so I think that was also - has been important for me because I realize - in the individual capacity for change. You know, one of the things that's odd about being a public defender is you're constantly arguing to the world in the ability of your clients to change and that we shouldn't judge them by one moment - right? - by one action. And I really try to take that into the rest of my life because I often find in, whether it's political discourse or with students - you know, I talk to my students about this all the time. I say, you know, somebody's going to say something in law school that you're going to find incredibly offensive, and you have the right to be offended. But you also have to remember that's one comment. That's one statement. That's not all of who they are. And that's - again, it's what we do in court as public defenders. But I find that - even people that are, you know, critical of the criminal justice system and who would be quick to say that in the context of representing a client - that, sometimes, we're not as gracious or not as big-hearted, maybe, is the right word - when we're dealing with people in the rest of our lives. And I really try. It's not easy. I make snap judgments, too, and I start to write people off. And then I start to remind myself of how I'm constantly asking judges not to write people off. And so then I try to resist it.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's interview with author James Forman Jr. His book \"Locking Up Our Own: Crime And Punishment In Black America\" won the Pulitzer Prize in"}
{"id": "610385205", "date": "2018-05-11", "guest": null, "title": "How Black Leaders Unwittingly Contributed To The Era Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 29, "text": "Well, James Forman, I want to thank you so much for talking with us. FORMAN JR.: Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's interview with author James Forman Jr. His book \"Locking Up Our Own: Crime And Punishment In Black America\" won the Pulitzer Prize in"}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. It's been nearly four years since Robin Williams took his life. When he died, he didn't know that the mental and physical problems that had overtaken him were caused by Lewy body disease, which is characterized by deposits on the brain. Williams is now the subject of a new biography called \"Robin\" by my guest, Dave Itzkoff. Itzkoff is a culture reporter at The New York Times. He had interviewed and written about Williams when Williams was still acting and performing. Itzkoff also wrote Williams' New York Times obituary, in which he described Williams as a comedian who evolved into the surprisingly nuanced Academy Award-winning actor, imbuing his performances with wild inventiveness and a kind of manic energy. Dave Itzkoff, welcome to FRESH AIR. I want to talk with you about what it was like to talk with Robin Williams. And before I hear what your experience was like, I want to share with you a bit of mine. I spoke with him in August of 2006. And I didn't know what to expect. I was afraid he would just be on the whole time. And he would just be jumping from one character to another. And he wouldn't answer any of my questions. And he was in a relatively reflective mood. And he spent some time actually just, like, talking about himself and other times, you know, like, doing characters and making jokes, which were funny and very enjoyable. So I want to play you how the interview ended.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 1, "text": "Can I make a confession?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 2, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 3, "text": "Well, before the - we did the interview, I had no idea what to expect.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're not wearing anything. But that's OK. You're in the radio studio. And if you're wearing - if you're just - if you're in a thong, that's wonderful. A thong in your heart. That's OK. No, no, pleas"}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 4, "text": "And I wasn't sure you'd give me a straight answer to anything. And I just want to say thank you for...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 5, "text": "...For actually having a talk...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're welcome."}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 6, "text": "...And for being really funny at the same time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's good to talk like that, you know?"}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 7, "text": "It's a good thing", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's probably what life is, you know? You can do both. You can talk and be funny. And you see it wasn't that zany. It was just conversation. It's a good thing, Terry. You know that."}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's probably what life is, you know? You can do both. You can talk and be funny. And you see it wasn't that zany. It was just conversation. It's a good thing, Terry. You know that."}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's what we come - it's a good thing, as Martha Stewart said once she got out of prison."}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, she had that wonderful magazine she published while she was in jail called Truly Inside Living, which was wonderful."}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "How to make trump doie (ph) with a lovely toothbrush, things to do with a shiv besides stab, you know, wonderful things. And if you only have one window, use the light. She is very good in that way."}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 12, "text": "Robin Williams, thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And you call this shev (ph), you know? We'll be right back with some people from..."}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Oh, you're welcome, Terry Gross. We're here with some people from New Zealand or what? - talking about animal husbandry. And can you marry a ewe? Your call."}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 14, "text": "Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, lines are open. (Imitating ewe bleating). Easy. Terrence (ph)? No. (Imitating ewe bleating). How was it? Not bad. All right, thank you. We're back. Thanks, Terry. It was a good day. It was a"}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 15, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're welcome."}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 16, "text": "So I think he was, like, really funny in that. But here I am, like, really thanking him in a very honest way for being, you know, real with me. Then he just goes off into this, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 17, "text": "...Long set of improvs", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 18, "text": ", you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 19, "text": "You know? It was the point. First of all, I talked to him on August 3 of 2006. What was going on in his life then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And now I have to follow Robin Williams. So I think it was that."}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 20, "text": "So had he already been out of rehab? Was he in, like, that transitional period between rehab and going home when I spoke to him? Do you have any idea?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, it's remarkable that he gave you such a pleasant and joyful interview because it was really a very challenging time in his life, although people were not really aware of it. And I don'"}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 21, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. When you spoke to him, he would not have gone into rehab yet."}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 22, "text": "Wow. See...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was just a matter of days away."}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 23, "text": "...I had no idea it was such a tumultuous time in his life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 24, "text": "So you profiled him before writing this biography of him. What were some...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, there were a lot of interviews that he gave, certainly, throughout his life and certainly in that period of it and throughout his final years where there was lots of tumult - and that I do"}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 25, "text": "...Of the questions you wanted to answer by writing a biography?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 26, "text": "So how did he leave Juilliard?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think his whole life, as much as we thought we knew about it - and sadly, I mean, one of the pieces that I wrote about him for The New York Times was his obituary. I think there were certain p"}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 27, "text": "One of the people you spoke with for your biography of Robin Williams was his first wife, Valerie Velardi. They were married in 1978 before he became famous, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Julliard - and particularly, its drama school - was a very different institution in the time that Robin was there. And it had only been running its drama school for a few years by the time he enrolled"}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 28, "text": "So had you spoken to her before for your profile of him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that's right."}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 29, "text": "Really? Did they really say that to her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. This was my first conversation with Valerie. And I was able to speak to her through Zach Williams, who was her son with Robin. And, you know, Zach also participated in the book. And Valerie really"}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 30, "text": "She called Robin Williams a stimulus junkie. That's what she said to you. What did she mean by that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's the story that she tells. And that's not the life that she wanted to live. She, at the time, was a dancer and a dance instructor. She had creative aspirations of her own. She didn't want to jus"}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 31, "text": "Who broke up with who in that marriage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that she meant that he was somebody who was just turned on by, I think, everything that you can experience as a human being. We certainly know, you know, from his upbringing and even by the wa"}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 32, "text": "Let's take a short break, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Dave Itzkoff, a culture reporter for The New York Times who has a new biography of Robin Williams called \"Robin.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was a mutual breakup. And I think that Valerie was certainly aware of what Robin was doing behind her back and felt like she had to allow it in the sense that he was finally getting to expe"}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 33, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us my guest is Dave Itzkoff, culture reporter for The New York Times who has written a new biography of Robin Williams called \"Robin.\" I want to play an excerpt of a Robin Williams comedy show that he did at the Metropolitan Opera House in 1986. And this bit is about being a father.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was a mutual breakup. And I think that Valerie was certainly aware of what Robin was doing behind her back and felt like she had to allow it in the sense that he was finally getting to expe"}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 34, "text": "And it has to do with being high and having a kid and how everything looks to you when you're high.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 35, "text": "So that was Robin Williams recorded in 1986 at the Metropolitan Opera House. Dave Itzkoff, so that bit is about being high and having a kid. What was it like for Robin Williams to become a father? Did you talk to his son, Zach? Did you hear about Robin Williams from his son Zach's point of view?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Damien, put the doll down, Damien."}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 36, "text": "I imagine Robin Williams is a very complicated person to work with in a collaborative environment - like on a TV set or in a movie as opposed to on stage, where it's all him, and whatever he wants to do, he can do without clashing with somebody else's vision about what he should be doing. What was the border when he was on set for a TV show or for a movie between thinking that he was hilarious and thinking that he was just, like, taking it one step too far, that he was going on for too long or doing too much and needed to, like, turn it off or tone it down?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, Zach was one of the people that I spoke to for this book and spent a fair amount of time with. And Zach was an integral part, even though he was just a baby and didn't have direct control over t"}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 37, "text": "Two of my favorite performances of his are in his triptych of dark films. He did all of them in 2002, I think. At least, that's the year they were all released. \"One Hour Photo,\" in which he played a guy in a kind of large pharmacy-type of store where he ran the one-hour photo booth and got really involved in the lives of the people", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "improvisation from Robin at first and, if he would go off-script, would just call cut for the day. And Robin really had to be taught in those kinds of scenarios that the director's in charge of the fi"}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 38, "text": "in a very dark way, in the lives of the people whose photographs he was developing. And then \"Death To Smoochy,\" which was a comedy. And he played, like, somebody who had a child TV show who was rivals with this newcomer, Smoochy, and wanted to get him, to do him in.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "improvisation from Robin at first and, if he would go off-script, would just call cut for the day. And Robin really had to be taught in those kinds of scenarios that the director's in charge of the fi"}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 39, "text": "And then \"Insomnia,\" which I didn't see, so I'm not counting that one. But did he like doing those dark roles? I thought that they brought out something really interesting in him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 40, "text": "My guest is Dave Itzkoff, a culture reporter for The New York Times. His new biography of Robin Williams is called \"Robin.\" We'll talk more after a break. And we'll hear from Krysten Ritter, the star of the Netflix series \"Jessica Jones.\" In season two of \"Breaking Bad,\" she played Jesse Pinkman's landlord and girlfriend. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think he really found it interesting to delve into that side of himself and bring out a darker shade that didn't - certainly didn't come through in all of his comedy. And, you know, he really would "}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 41, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross, back with Dave Itzkoff, a culture reporter for The New York Times who's written a new biography of Robin Williams called \"Robin.\" Itzkoff had interviewed and written about Williams and later wrote Williams' obituary in The Times. Williams took his life in 2014 when he was dealing with dementia caused by Lewy body disease, which wasn't accurately diagnosed until Williams' autopsy. So what was his career like at the end of his life when his brain was kind of being changed by the dementia caused by Lewy body disease?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think he really found it interesting to delve into that side of himself and bring out a darker shade that didn't - certainly didn't come through in all of his comedy. And, you know, he really would "}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 42, "text": "You describe him kind of breaking down and saying, you know, I'm not funny, and I can't be funny anymore.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's hard to know exactly when, you know, he would have started showing the symptoms of what we now know is the Lewy body disease. But even as late as, you know, 2013, he was a star in a network sitco"}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 43, "text": "I want to ask you about Robin Williams's death, which you, of course, write about. And as you say, you did his obituary too. He hanged himself with his belt. He was discovered by his wife. This was his third wife. First, his death was attributed to Parkinson's disease until the autopsy revealed that it was Lewy body disease. What is that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that was an experience that he had with his makeup artist Cheri Minns on \"Night At The Museum,\" which is again one of the last movies that he made. By that point, you know, a lot of the symptoms"}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 44, "text": "So you profile a lot of people for The New York Times. And in writing about Robin Williams, you write about how he felt wounded by the tabloids and the personality press, who would sometimes write about things that he wanted to be private - like when he went into rehab and wasn't ready to talk about it yet and didn't want it revealed yet. I'm wondering how you go about deciding when you're profiling somebody how personal to get - and if somebody doesn't want something to be revealed, whether to reveal it or not. And I ask you this as somebody who also, you know, does a lot of interviews. I'm not profiling somebody in print. But these are issues I have to deal with too though with me somebody could just say, sorry, I'm not going to tell you", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Lewy body disease - or sometimes Lewy body dementia - it's somewhat analogous to Parkinson's in that both diseases result from a buildup of proteins in the brain. And normally, it's a useful pro"}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 45, "text": ". And I'm not going to ask other people about their lives because, you know, I just don't do that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Lewy body disease - or sometimes Lewy body dementia - it's somewhat analogous to Parkinson's in that both diseases result from a buildup of proteins in the brain. And normally, it's a useful pro"}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 46, "text": "I'm just talking to that one person. Whereas when you're profiling somebody, you have the opportunity of talking to other people about the person you're profiling.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 47, "text": "Well, Dave Itzkoff, I want to thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's all sort of driven by the subject to some extent. I mean, sometimes there are things that you just have to find out about people usually when there are, you know, issues of the law at sta"}
{"id": "610993828", "date": "2018-05-14", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "He Felt He Could No Longer Be Funny, Says Robin Williams Biographer", "question_index": 48, "text": "Dave Itzkoff is a culture reporter for The New York Times. His new biography of Robin Williams is called \"Robin.\" After a break, we'll hear from Krysten Ritter. She stars in the Netflix series \"Jessica Jones\" and play Jesse Pinkman's girlfriend on \"Breaking Bad.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was my pleasure. Thank you for having me."}
{"id": "611922875", "date": "2018-05-17", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Trump's 'War' On The 'Deep State' Is Leading To The Dismantling Of Government", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. President Trump's war on the deep state is the subject of a new article by my guest, Evan Osnos, a staff writer for The New Yorker who covers politics and foreign affairs. Osnos writes about how Trump and his administration's loyalists are reshaping American governance. He says President Trump has rid himself of people who question him, like James Comey, H.R. McMaster and Rex Tillerson. The president is on his third national security adviser and his sixth communications director. More than half of the 656 most critical positions in government remain unfilled. Civil servants who aren't considered sufficiently loyal have been moved out of their positions and banished to marginal jobs. Later, we'll talk about America's increasingly complex and confusing relationship with North Korea and China. Osnos covered China for eight years. Evan Osnos, welcome back to FRESH AIR. So do you think the Trump administration is trying to dismantle the U.S. government as we know it?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "611922875", "date": "2018-05-17", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Trump's 'War' On The 'Deep State' Is Leading To The Dismantling Of Government", "question_index": 1, "text": "Well, he's certainly getting a head start in rolling back treaties.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They're definitely trying to dismantle parts of it, and they say as much. In the campaign, you remember they talked about draining the swamp. That was one of the key slogans, and that took on other fo"}
{"id": "611922875", "date": "2018-05-17", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Trump's 'War' On The 'Deep State' Is Leading To The Dismantling Of Government", "question_index": 2, "text": "So do you think Trump's goal is to shrink the government or to remove people who aren't hardcore Trump supporters or both or other things?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He did, yeah, absolutely. And, you know, as he said from the beginning, he said I'm going to pull out of the Trans-Pacific Partnership, which was the trade deal in Asia, and he did that. He said he wo"}
{"id": "611922875", "date": "2018-05-17", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Trump's 'War' On The 'Deep State' Is Leading To The Dismantling Of Government", "question_index": 3, "text": "Let's just get a sense of how many unfilled critical positions there are in the Trump administration. What comes under that umbrella of critical positions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a combination of both. I mean, the goal of shrinking the government is a familiar one. It's a central plank of the modern conservative movement, the idea that the government is simply too big, to"}
{"id": "611922875", "date": "2018-05-17", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Trump's 'War' On The 'Deep State' Is Leading To The Dismantling Of Government", "question_index": 4, "text": "It also seems, from what you write, that the president and his administration are trying to sideline or push out people who they think are unfriendly to the Trump policies. And you give some examples of this, people who have been pushed out or marginalized within the Trump administration because of their politics. And one example you give is Sahar Nowrouzzadeh, whose parents migrated from Iran to the U.S. so that her father could finish his training in obstetrics. What kind of work had she done starting in the Bush administration?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, some of the most important jobs in American foreign policy and national security, for instance, many of the people at the assistant secretary level - these are the people just below the secretar"}
{"id": "611922875", "date": "2018-05-17", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Trump's 'War' On The 'Deep State' Is Leading To The Dismantling Of Government", "question_index": 5, "text": "And this is the deal that President Trump recently pulled out of. So how did the word spread that she worked on the Iran deal and therefore was the kind of person - persona non grata within the Trump administration?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She joined the government during the Bush administration when the administration put out this call to Americans, you may remember, saying, look, if you're familiar with the cultures of the Middle East"}
{"id": "611922875", "date": "2018-05-17", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Trump's 'War' On The 'Deep State' Is Leading To The Dismantling Of Government", "question_index": 6, "text": "And she's filed a complaint.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she was sort of this anonymous figure, frankly, for most people. Unless you were really focused on national security or you worked on these issues, people didn't really know her name. But in Mar"}
{"id": "611922875", "date": "2018-05-17", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Trump's 'War' On The 'Deep State' Is Leading To The Dismantling Of Government", "question_index": 7, "text": "You write that there are hundreds of State Department employees who have been banished to a bizarre form of bureaucratic purgatory. What are you talking about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She did. She filed a complaint on the basis of alleging discrimination, and she and the State Department have settled, and she stayed in the government, and she's told friends, look, my heart is still"}
{"id": "611922875", "date": "2018-05-17", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Trump's 'War' On The 'Deep State' Is Leading To The Dismantling Of Government", "question_index": 8, "text": "So the people who were sent to the turkey farm, so to speak - do think that the ultimate goal is to just marginalize people who might disagree, or do you think President Trump feels, I don't need anybody in those positions anyways; I know what I'm doing; I'm following my gut; I'm the only one who counts? - which is a direct quote from something he said earlier.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. This was a surprising one. I started to hear about a new assignment to - what's known as FOIA duty. That stands for the Freedom of Information Act. And, you know, when people file their FOIA req"}
{"id": "611922875", "date": "2018-05-17", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Trump's 'War' On The 'Deep State' Is Leading To The Dismantling Of Government", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well, Mike Pompeo, who's the new secretary of state, is apparently changing personnel policies so that people aren't fired and more people are hired. Do I have that right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the president definitely takes a kind of leadership-oriented view of diplomacy, to put it one way. He really believes that what he can do in the room with a foreign leader is what matters and th"}
{"id": "611922875", "date": "2018-05-17", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Trump's 'War' On The 'Deep State' Is Leading To The Dismantling Of Government", "question_index": 10, "text": "How do you read that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right, yeah. He is."}
{"id": "611922875", "date": "2018-05-17", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Trump's 'War' On The 'Deep State' Is Leading To The Dismantling Of Government", "question_index": 11, "text": "Well, why don't we take a short break here? And then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Evan Osnos, a staff writer for The New Yorker who covers politics and foreign affairs. His new article is called \"Trump Vs. The 'Deep State': How The Administration's Loyalists Are Quietly Reshaping American Governance.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it - and this was expected - that he - he came in after Rex Tillerson, who was really just supremely unpopular inside the State Department - and also in the White House by the end. But M"}
{"id": "611922875", "date": "2018-05-17", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Trump's 'War' On The 'Deep State' Is Leading To The Dismantling Of Government", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. My guest is Evan Osnos, a staff writer for The New Yorker. He covers politics and foreign affairs. He covered China for eight years. His article in the current edition of The New Yorker is called \"Trump Vs. The 'Deep State': How The Administration's Loyalists Are Quietly Reshaping American Governance.\" So we've been talking about some of the people who have been marginalized, sent to the so-called turkey farm in the Trump administration because they were considered irrelevant or because they worked on Obama-era policies, and Trump doesn't feel like they will be loyalists to him. There's a way to appeal if you're a civil servant who thinks that you've been mistreated, but there's a catch right now if you want to appeal. Would you explain the catch?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it - and this was expected - that he - he came in after Rex Tillerson, who was really just supremely unpopular inside the State Department - and also in the White House by the end. But M"}
{"id": "611922875", "date": "2018-05-17", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Trump's 'War' On The 'Deep State' Is Leading To The Dismantling Of Government", "question_index": 13, "text": "You know, you write that one of the department's most hard hit by President Trump's war on the, quote, \"deep state\" is the Department of the Interior, which is now being run by Ryan Zinke, and he's adapted - you say he's adapted Trump's approach to expertise, loyalty and dissent. So what's going on there now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. The way that you appeal, if you're a civil servant who feels that you've been mistreated, is you file your complaint to what's called the Merit Systems Protection Board. You know, this is an ins"}
{"id": "611922875", "date": "2018-05-17", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Trump's 'War' On The 'Deep State' Is Leading To The Dismantling Of Government", "question_index": 14, "text": "My guest is Evan Osnos, a staff writer for The New Yorker who covers politics and foreign affairs. His article in the current issue is titled \"Trump Vs. The 'Deep State.'\" We'll talk more about how the president and his loyalists are reshaping American governance, and we'll discuss the complicated and confusing relationship between America, North Korea and China after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that, I discovered at the Department of Interior, is a reflection of something that's happening across the government, which is that some of the practices and the habits of the White House are n"}
{"id": "611922875", "date": "2018-05-17", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Trump's 'War' On The 'Deep State' Is Leading To The Dismantling Of Government", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross back with Evan Osnos, a staff writer for The New Yorker. We're talking about his article in the current issue. It's \"Titled Trump Vs. The 'Deep State': How The Administration's Loyalists Are Quietly Reshaping American Governance.\" Osnos writes about how Trump has rid himself of top people in government who question him and banished many civil servants who aren't considered sufficiently loyal and move them to marginal jobs. More than half of the 656 most critical government positions are unfilled. When Trump was campaigning for president, he bragged about how he only hired the best people and he was going to hire the best people as president. You have a very interesting comparison in your article about the Obama vetting process versus the Trump vetting process. Would you make that comparison for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that, I discovered at the Department of Interior, is a reflection of something that's happening across the government, which is that some of the practices and the habits of the White House are n"}
{"id": "611922875", "date": "2018-05-17", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Trump's 'War' On The 'Deep State' Is Leading To The Dismantling Of Government", "question_index": 16, "text": "So how has that affected who has been hired? I mean, you write that this has opened the door to basically special interest groups getting their own people into key positions.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Trump administration adopted a very different way of vetting candidates than the Obama administration had - or previous administrations. I mean, just to give you a literal example, the Obama admin"}
{"id": "611922875", "date": "2018-05-17", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Trump's 'War' On The 'Deep State' Is Leading To The Dismantling Of Government", "question_index": 17, "text": "In part because of this kind of lax vetting process that you've described, some of the nominees for positions really embarrass themselves during hearings. Do you want to give an example of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There have been several think tanks in Washington that have - and donor networks, as they're called, that have put people in office. So initially, the Heritage Foundation - a prominent conservative th"}
{"id": "611922875", "date": "2018-05-17", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Trump's 'War' On The 'Deep State' Is Leading To The Dismantling Of Government", "question_index": 18, "text": "One of the new hires in the Trump administration is John Bolton. He is the new national security adviser. You're probably familiar with him from the Iraq War days.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. One example is somebody who was assigned to be the assistant to the secretary of energy. This is the agency, after all, that's responsible for the U.S. nuclear arsenal. His name is Sid Bowdidge."}
{"id": "611922875", "date": "2018-05-17", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Trump's 'War' On The 'Deep State' Is Leading To The Dismantling Of Government", "question_index": 19, "text": "One of the people you spoke to for your New Yorker piece is Lawrence Wilkerson, who was Colin Powell's chief of staff during the George W. Bush administration, and - you know, during the lead-up to the war in Iraq and during the war in Iraq. And he told you he's afraid that the Trump administration is building a case for attacking Iran just as the Bush administration built a case for invading Iraq under the false charges that Iraq had functioning weapons of mass destruction. Do you share his concern about Iran?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Exactly. John Bolton was one of the advocates for the invasion of Iraq. He was a senior arms control expert at the State Department and has been sort of in Washington ever since - you know, not"}
{"id": "611922875", "date": "2018-05-17", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Trump's 'War' On The 'Deep State' Is Leading To The Dismantling Of Government", "question_index": 20, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Evan Osnos. He's a staff writer for The New Yorker, covering politics and foreign affairs. His article in the current edition is called \"Trump Vs. The 'Deep State': How The Administration's Loyalists Are Quietly Reshaping American Governance.\" We'll be back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I do see a pattern emerging - that the administration is making an increasingly strident case that Iran as a national security threat to the United States, as they put it, is something that we c"}
{"id": "611922875", "date": "2018-05-17", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Trump's 'War' On The 'Deep State' Is Leading To The Dismantling Of Government", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Evan Osnos, a staff writer for The New Yorker covering politics and foreign affairs. He covered China for eight years. His article in the current edition of The New Yorker is called \"Trump Vs. The 'Deep State': How The Administration's Loyalists Are Quietly Reshaping American Governance.\" Steve Bannon recently told you that Trump is unchained. He said this is primal Trump, back to the leader he was during the campaign - the same one the American people voted into office. There are no more McMasters in the apparatus. Trump's got stuff he's got to get done, and he's going to get it done. I think what Bannon is saying there is there's no one left to restrain President Trump.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I do see a pattern emerging - that the administration is making an increasingly strident case that Iran as a national security threat to the United States, as they put it, is something that we c"}
{"id": "611922875", "date": "2018-05-17", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Trump's 'War' On The 'Deep State' Is Leading To The Dismantling Of Government", "question_index": 22, "text": "So there have been other chapters in American history when a president has felt unrestrained, but there has been somebody in the administration who has tried to prevent him from doing something rash. And one example you give of that is Melvin Laird, the defense secretary during part of the Nixon administration. What did he do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. And from Bannon's perspective, that's a good thing. For the first year of the administration, there were people in the system - whether it was H.R. McMaster or, to some degree, Rex Tille"}
{"id": "611922875", "date": "2018-05-17", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Trump's 'War' On The 'Deep State' Is Leading To The Dismantling Of Government", "question_index": 23, "text": "Let me mention another example that you cite. In 1974 toward the end of the Nixon presidency - during the Watergate investigations, some of his advisers regarded him as unsteady. And James Schlesinger, the secretary of defense, issued a directive to the chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff that any emergency order coming from the president should be diverted to Schlesinger before any actions were taken. Did that happen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, this is a dramatic moment. Melvin Laird in 1969 was Richard Nixon's secretary of defense. And Nixon had this idea which he called the madman theory - the idea that if he made the Soviet Union th"}
{"id": "611922875", "date": "2018-05-17", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Trump's 'War' On The 'Deep State' Is Leading To The Dismantling Of Government", "question_index": 24, "text": "A lot of people are concerned that President Trump is impulsive. He has access to nuclear weapons. He trusts his gut. He trusts his opinion. What if he decides impulsively to launch a nuclear weapon? Is there anybody to serve as a circuit breaker?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We don't really know. It's never come out whether or not he was called upon to do that. But one of the reasons why it's so interesting is that this was a really dramatic thing to do - to stand up and "}
{"id": "611922875", "date": "2018-05-17", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Trump's 'War' On The 'Deep State' Is Leading To The Dismantling Of Government", "question_index": 25, "text": "Now, you mentioned Nixon's madman theory. Do you think Trump is operating on a similar theory in the sense that he always says he loves chaos? And he's created a lot of chaos nationally and internationally.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a strange thing to say, Terry, but we won't know until and if that moment happens - because the way that these - you know, that a lot of these kinds of dramatic gestures have to happen in private"}
{"id": "611922875", "date": "2018-05-17", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Trump's 'War' On The 'Deep State' Is Leading To The Dismantling Of Government", "question_index": 26, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Evan Osnos, a staff writer for The New Yorker. His new article is titled \"Trump Vs. The 'Deep State': How The Administration's Loyalists Are Quietly Reshaping American Governance.\" We'll be back after this break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He has, and he has also talked about his love of unpredictability. He said a number of times that he thinks it's a mistake for the United States to be predictable. He thinks that boxes us in, and it's"}
{"id": "611922875", "date": "2018-05-17", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Trump's 'War' On The 'Deep State' Is Leading To The Dismantling Of Government", "question_index": 27, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. My guest is Evan Osnos. He's a staff writer for The New Yorker, who covers politics and foreign affairs. He covered China for eight years. His article in the current edition of The New Yorker is called \"Trump Vs. The 'Deep State': How The Administration's Loyalists Are Quietly Reshaping American Governance.\" So I want to change the subject a little bit and talk about what's happening with the U.S., China and North Korea and how that's all interrelated. So as we record, North Korea has postponed and may end up canceling its meeting with South Korea, its next meeting, and has threatened to cancel its meeting with President Trump. This took the Trump administration by surprise. Trump is calling for total denuclearization. Do you think there's any way that Kim Jong Un would do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He has, and he has also talked about his love of unpredictability. He said a number of times that he thinks it's a mistake for the United States to be predictable. He thinks that boxes us in, and it's"}
{"id": "611922875", "date": "2018-05-17", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Trump's 'War' On The 'Deep State' Is Leading To The Dismantling Of Government", "question_index": 28, "text": "So you think that the postponement or pulling out of the meeting with South Korea and the threat to pull out of the meeting with President Trump is in part a direct reaction to the chance of Nobel, Nobel, like its President Trump who is working this miracle and Kim Jong Un isn't going to get his due.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the theory has been for a long time that Kim Jong Un would not do that. They've spent decades developing this nuclear arsenal. It's really the centerpiece of their national self mythology, the i"}
{"id": "611922875", "date": "2018-05-17", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Trump's 'War' On The 'Deep State' Is Leading To The Dismantling Of Government", "question_index": 29, "text": "I wonder how the Trump administration is going to interpret that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do. I think that based on the statements that the North Koreans have made in the last few days, it's quite clear that they were bothered by the language the Trump administration has been using to ta"}
{"id": "611922875", "date": "2018-05-17", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Trump's 'War' On The 'Deep State' Is Leading To The Dismantling Of Government", "question_index": 30, "text": "Oh, that's really interesting. So what's the nature of China's alliance with North Korea, and what does China want right now in that triangle between North Korea, China and the U.S.?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We will see. But they have - you know, one thing that North Korea does very effectively - they've done this historically and they're doing it now - is that they have figured out that if a foreign lead"}
{"id": "611922875", "date": "2018-05-17", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Trump's 'War' On The 'Deep State' Is Leading To The Dismantling Of Government", "question_index": 31, "text": "So President Xi could be the president for life if he chooses 'cause China just threw out term limits. It just eliminated term limits on the presidency. So you're right that President Xi might throw out the rules of the international system, including rules on trade, arms and access to international waters. So if China is throwing out the rules, and the U.S. is throwing out a lot of the rules and Putin is violating the rules, that's a very frightening international landscape.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, China has been doing some really rapid diplomacy with North Korea recently. Over the last six or seven years, the relationship's been poor. It's been really lousy. You know, Kim Jong Un, since t"}
{"id": "611922875", "date": "2018-05-17", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Trump's 'War' On The 'Deep State' Is Leading To The Dismantling Of Government", "question_index": 32, "text": "Did you hear President Trump make a joke recently about, not only a second term but more, if you want me?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is. I think you described it well. We're in a strange period now when some of the anchors of the international system, the people and the organizations in the countries that we have assumed to be t"}
{"id": "611922875", "date": "2018-05-17", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Trump's 'War' On The 'Deep State' Is Leading To The Dismantling Of Government", "question_index": 33, "text": "But?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He had also made a joke about Xi Jinping's presidency for life, and he thought that sounds pretty good. And, you know, he likes to then play these off and say this is just humor and people shoul"}
{"id": "611922875", "date": "2018-05-17", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Trump's 'War' On The 'Deep State' Is Leading To The Dismantling Of Government", "question_index": 34, "text": "Evan Osnos, thank you for coming back to our show. It's always a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it gives people a lot of concern. If you put it into context of the way that his administration has tried to undermine the integrity and the credibility of other checks on his power, whether i"}
{"id": "611922875", "date": "2018-05-17", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Trump's 'War' On The 'Deep State' Is Leading To The Dismantling Of Government", "question_index": 35, "text": "Evan Osnos is a staff writer for The New Yorker, covering politics and foreign affairs. His article in the current issue is titled, \"Trump Vs. The 'Deep State': How The Administration's Loyalists Are Quietly Reshaping American Governance.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My pleasure. Thanks, Terry."}
{"id": "611922875", "date": "2018-05-17", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Trump's 'War' On The 'Deep State' Is Leading To The Dismantling Of Government", "question_index": 36, "text": "If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, like this week's interviews with comic Tig Notaro, and with journalist Michael Pollan, whose new book is about the history of psychedelic drugs and their current experimental use in therapeutic settings, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of interviews to choose from.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My pleasure. Thanks, Terry."}
{"id": "611922875", "date": "2018-05-17", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Trump's 'War' On The 'Deep State' Is Leading To The Dismantling Of Government", "question_index": 37, "text": "Fresh AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Mooj Zadie, Thea Chaloner and Seth Kelley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My pleasure. Thanks, Terry."}
{"id": "611946883", "date": "2018-05-18", "guest": "Benedict Cumberbatch", "title": "In Life And Fiction, Edward St. Aubyn Sheds The Weight Of His Past", "question_index": 0, "text": "Let's talk about the \"Patrick Melrose\" novels. First of all, the character is from a family that has money passed on over the generations. It's a family that has, you know, a historic past. And I imagine your family was that way, too. Could you just give us a sense of what kind of historical background your family is from? EDWARD ST.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry Gross spoke with Edward St. Aubyn, author of the semi-autobiographical \"Patrick Melrose\" novels, in 2014."}
{"id": "611946883", "date": "2018-05-18", "guest": "Benedict Cumberbatch", "title": "In Life And Fiction, Edward St. Aubyn Sheds The Weight Of His Past", "question_index": 1, "text": "The head of your family - is someone - there's still a castle? ST.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, on my father's side, I'm told we came over with the Norman Conquest and was part of that invasion. It's a family that's been in the same place for a long time. I don't know why that's considered"}
{"id": "611946883", "date": "2018-05-18", "guest": "Benedict Cumberbatch", "title": "In Life And Fiction, Edward St. Aubyn Sheds The Weight Of His Past", "question_index": 2, "text": "One of your characters in the first novel in the Patrick Melrose series, \"Never Mind,\" the character Nancy, is thinking about the psychological impact of inherited wealth. (Reading) the raging desire to get rid of it and the raging desire to hang onto it, the demoralizing effect of already having what almost everyone else was sacrificing their precious lives to acquire, the more or less secret superiority and the more or less secret shame of being rich. Can you talk about the downside of that kind of legacy of money? ST.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. But I'm, you know, quite remote from all that. But that's the kind of family that it is. And I should say - sorry - I should add, on my mother's side, there's a different story, which is a story"}
{"id": "611946883", "date": "2018-05-18", "guest": "Benedict Cumberbatch", "title": "In Life And Fiction, Edward St. Aubyn Sheds The Weight Of His Past", "question_index": 3, "text": "Sure. ST.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think if - probably the simplest thing, since I know where you're equating from, is to continue reading the sentence, if you'll allow me."}
{"id": "611946883", "date": "2018-05-18", "guest": "Benedict Cumberbatch", "title": "In Life And Fiction, Edward St. Aubyn Sheds The Weight Of His Past", "question_index": 4, "text": "Love was very difficult in your family. The character of Patrick Melrose is raped by his father when he's 5, and that continues for several years. And my understanding is that that happened to you, too. ST.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) Generating their characteristic disguises - the philanthropy solution, the alcoholic solution, the mask of eccentricity, the search for salvation in perfect taste, the defeated, the idle and"}
{"id": "611946883", "date": "2018-05-18", "guest": "Benedict Cumberbatch", "title": "In Life And Fiction, Edward St. Aubyn Sheds The Weight Of His Past", "question_index": 5, "text": "I'm not going to ask you to read that scene, but there is also a scene that's very upsetting. It's not rape. But there's a scene where the father picks up Patrick by his ears and basically - and Patrick hates it when his father does that. But the father says, I'm going to drop you right away. Don't worry about it. It's going to be fine. And he doesn't. And Patrick feels like his ears are going to fall off, and it's just such a kind of petty act of sadism to do that to a child when you know the child's hurting. So you've got, like, the incredibly horrible thing - the act of rape. And just that more smaller thing - there's, like, picking him up by his ears. You must have asked yourself a million times. Why would a father do that to his son? Like, what could he possibly be thinking? Like, how deranged can he be to do that? ST.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "611946883", "date": "2018-05-18", "guest": "Benedict Cumberbatch", "title": "In Life And Fiction, Edward St. Aubyn Sheds The Weight Of His Past", "question_index": 6, "text": "I imagine, as a 5-year-old, you had no comprehension of what was going on. ST.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So that was a prominent question in my mind for many years. That's right. Yes, that's in the build-up towards the rape. We just get a little foretaste of David Melrose's sadism, his trickery and his d"}
{"id": "611946883", "date": "2018-05-18", "guest": "Benedict Cumberbatch", "title": "In Life And Fiction, Edward St. Aubyn Sheds The Weight Of His Past", "question_index": 7, "text": "Right after the rape, the father ask Patrick if he's hungry. And the father says, well, I'm starving. You really should eat more. You know, build up your strength. You know, then the father goes out to lunch. And at lunch, the father is thinking that perhaps he pushed his disdain for middle-class prudery a little too far. (Reading) Even at the bar of the Calvary and Guards Club, one couldn't boast about homosexual-pedophiliac incest with any confidence of a favorable reception. Who could he tell that he had raped his 5-year-old son? Do you think, first of all, that your father's raping of you had anything to do with his disdain for middle-class prudery? ST.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I didn't. I didn't. But I knew that it was wrong. And I knew that it was bewildering and horrible. So, I mean, I understood some aspects of it very well. And I knew that I was desperate to not to "}
{"id": "611946883", "date": "2018-05-18", "guest": "Benedict Cumberbatch", "title": "In Life And Fiction, Edward St. Aubyn Sheds The Weight Of His Past", "question_index": 8, "text": "He seems to, instead of feeling shame and horror at his own actions, to just be wishing that he could, like, talk about it with somebody, share the experience. ST.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that the people who behave in ways which are very destructive, immoral, which they they know to be wrong, search for whatever excuses, pretexts and lies that are available to them. And someone"}
{"id": "611946883", "date": "2018-05-18", "guest": "Benedict Cumberbatch", "title": "In Life And Fiction, Edward St. Aubyn Sheds The Weight Of His Past", "question_index": 9, "text": "And apply that to your life. ST.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think he did. He's not literally imagining that he would like to sit at the bar of the Cavalry and Guards Club, He's just - he's realizing in his own contemptuous and snobbish way that he's gone qui"}
{"id": "611946883", "date": "2018-05-18", "guest": "Benedict Cumberbatch", "title": "In Life And Fiction, Edward St. Aubyn Sheds The Weight Of His Past", "question_index": 10, "text": "When you did reveal that you were raped as a child, what was your mother's reaction? Because she didn't know, right? ST.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2014 interview with Edward St. Aubyn, author of the semi-autobiographical Patrick Melrose novels. Both St. Aubyn and his character, Patrick Melrose, were r"}
{"id": "611946883", "date": "2018-05-18", "guest": "Benedict Cumberbatch", "title": "In Life And Fiction, Edward St. Aubyn Sheds The Weight Of His Past", "question_index": 11, "text": "But you don't necessarily believe her? ST.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She said she didn't know, that's right."}
{"id": "611946883", "date": "2018-05-18", "guest": "Benedict Cumberbatch", "title": "In Life And Fiction, Edward St. Aubyn Sheds The Weight Of His Past", "question_index": 12, "text": "What was their reaction when she - when you told her she couldn't be in denial about it? ST.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I do. I do because people have extraordinary capacities for compartmentalizing things and denying things, you know. And to some extent, this is the subject of the last book in the volume. It's o"}
{"id": "611946883", "date": "2018-05-18", "guest": "Benedict Cumberbatch", "title": "In Life And Fiction, Edward St. Aubyn Sheds The Weight Of His Past", "question_index": 13, "text": "You said that your novels, the Patrick Melrose novels, are really about how to become free and free of anger and resentment. And what Patrick Melrose learns at the end of the fifth novel I think I would describe as compassion for yourself, which sounds like a cliche but that is so hard to achieve. Is that something you feel like you've worked on for a long time? ST.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She said that my father raped her as well and that she'd, you know, refused to go to bed with him after the birth of my sister. And then he'd raped her and that she was going to leave him but had beco"}
{"id": "611946883", "date": "2018-05-18", "guest": "Benedict Cumberbatch", "title": "In Life And Fiction, Edward St. Aubyn Sheds The Weight Of His Past", "question_index": 14, "text": "Mm-hmm. What's an example of a book that you read when you were young that was really important to you? ST.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's very hard to paraphrase the last chapter. And - but there are lots of elements in it. And that's what you described as one of them, yes. He renounces the search for consolation. So there's an ele"}
{"id": "611946883", "date": "2018-05-18", "guest": "Benedict Cumberbatch", "title": "In Life And Fiction, Edward St. Aubyn Sheds The Weight Of His Past", "question_index": 15, "text": "Edward St. Aubyn, thank you so much for talking with us. ST.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was a book which I was given as a prize at the Lycee Francais, the French school in London, which I went to only for a year. And everyone got a prize, by the way, so it wasn't very distinguished"}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest is writer Michael Chabon. His new book is a collection of personal essays about being a father and a son. One of the essays went viral when it was first published in GQ. It told the story of how Chabon took his 13-year-old son to Paris Men's Fashion Week because his son loves to create his own street fashion. It turned into a surprisingly moving piece about his son finding a world he fit into. The concluding essay in the book is about Chabon's relationship with his father. Chabon's parents divorced when he was 11. Chabon won a Pulitzer Prize in 2001 for his novel \"The Amazing Adventures Of Kavalier & Clay,\" which begins in 1939 and tells the story of two young men in the early days of the superhero craze who decide to create their own superhero. Marvel comics and superhero movies are still among Chabon's passions. His 2007 novel, \"The Yiddish Policemen's Union,\" reimagined another chapter of history based on the premise, what if Israel collapsed in 1948 and, in the wake of the Holocaust, part of Alaska was set aside as a temporary refuge for Jews? Chabon's new collection of essays is called \"Pops: Fatherhood In Pieces.\" Michael Chabon, welcome back to FRESH AIR. I want to start with a reading from your new collection. And I want you to set it up.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 1, "text": "So here's his advice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. Well, thanks. I'm really happy to be back. And this is from the introduction to the book. And in the introduction, I open by telling - remembering something that happened to me when I was just sta"}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 2, "text": "How was your reaction in the moment?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Don't have children, he said. That's it. Do not. The smile faded, but its ghost lingered a moment in his blue eyes. That is the whole of the law. I was due to marry my future ex-wife in under a month."}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first of all, I was sort of dizzied by the way he had conjured up this entire career that I could possibly have."}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 4, "text": "OK. So you not only had, like, a child or children, you had four children.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "that far ahead. And, you know, I - since I didn't have kids yet, and I wasn't even married yet, and we had just sort of had a few kind of almost playful conversations, my future ex-wife and I, about h"}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 5, "text": "So how did you decide, like, how many to have?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "that far ahead. And, you know, I - since I didn't have kids yet, and I wasn't even married yet, and we had just sort of had a few kind of almost playful conversations, my future ex-wife and I, about h"}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 6, "text": "So did your children end up being good friends and playing together?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The idea of having four children actually in some ways, for me, it predated my ever, you know, being married or having children at all, in that I - when I grew up in Columbia, Md., there was this fami"}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 7, "text": "One of the essays in your collection \"Pops\" is about your son Abe, who loves fashion, textiles, buying clothes, wearing clothes, combining garments in unusual, really fun, attention-getting ways. And for his bar mitzvah gift when he was 13, you took him to Paris Fashion Week. And you had a writing assignment from GQ to write about Fashion Week. So you took him to a lot of the shows. And, you know, he got to meet some of the designers, which was huge for him because - this was so exciting to him - one of the top designers kind of singled him out for how terrifically he'd put his outfit together. So when it was time to go home, he was really unhappy about leaving and about leaving behind the people he'd met there. And you react to it. You write your reaction in this essay at the very end of the essay. And I'd like you to read that part. And you can set it up in any way that you want to to get into the reading part.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, we're - ours weren't as closely grouped as that family that I remember from my childhood. They were all within - the eldest was only maybe 6 years older than the youngest. And we had the"}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Do you want to read that excerpt?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Know that it was time for Men's Fashion Week to be over. And, you know, I expected that he was going to be a little, you know, melancholy about that. And in fact, he was very melancholy. And, yo"}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 9, "text": "So what was your mix of feelings when you realized that? Because on the one hand, it's so great that your son found his people. He found the people who are as obsessed with fashion as he was. At the same time, he's, like, leaving the sense of family as being, first and foremost, his people.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. (Reading) You are born into a family, and those are your people. And they know you, and they love you. And if you're lucky, they even on occasion manage to understand you. And that ought to be e"}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 10, "text": "It must have felt good to see the validation that he got at Paris Week...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it's - you know, it's very painful. I'm not going to lie. It's hard in your sort of deepest, most unreflective, emotional mind not to see that, not to feel that as, in some way, a rebuke, you "}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 11, "text": "...Paris Fashion Week because it showed, like, oh, this isn't just, like, an eccentricity or a way of getting attention. Like, he's good at it. People admired him for it. And he fit in with other people who are equally absorbed in fashion and clothing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, as..."}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 12, "text": "So the article that you ended up writing for GQ about taking your son Abe to Paris Fashion Week became a famous article for you. It got a big readership. I think the article went viral. Is that the article you expected to write? Like, what were you expecting the article would be? What was the assignment that you landed? Was it about taking your son there, or was it about just going to report on fashion week?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was. It was - you know, it did feel like I had taken this little house plant that had been growing in a pot in the corner, you know, and had only sort of been capable of achieving a certain amount "}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 13, "text": "Have a payoff for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it was about taking him there. I mean, it was this - I just had this idea. I wanted to do something for him for his bar mitzvah that would, you know, both be special and memorable but that would a"}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it was about taking him there. I mean, it was this - I just had this idea. I wanted to do something for him for his bar mitzvah that would, you know, both be special and memorable but that would a"}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Let's take a short break here. And then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Michael Chabon. And his new book is a collection of essays about being a father and being a son. It's called \"Pops: Fatherhood In Pieces.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that, too. But it would also, like, acknowledge him, in some way, to sort of a gift that would say, you know, I see you. I see what's important to you. And, you know, here's what I - here's how "}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is writer Michael Chabon. And his new book is a collection of pieces about being a father and about being a son. It's called \"Pops: Fatherhood In Pieces.\" So we were talking about your son finding his people at Paris Fashion Week when you took him there. When did you find your people, and who were they?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that, too. But it would also, like, acknowledge him, in some way, to sort of a gift that would say, you know, I see you. I see what's important to you. And, you know, here's what I - here's how "}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Did you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a good question. I mean, I think the most honest answer to that question might be it wasn't really until I started having children. And my family and my children have very much been my gang, fo"}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 18, "text": "Did you feel like your - the family that you were born into was like a club for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Maybe in some way for the first time in my life."}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 19, "text": "I would guess that one of the things that made you feel like a club with him is that, like you, he had a passion for literature and music and comic books. So you had that to share.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "enough of us. You know, there were two - Mom, Dad and two kids. And my parents were divorced when I was in my very early teens, and my father moved away. You know, my father and I had a - I mean, if a"}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 20, "text": "The last essay in your collection of essays, \"Pops,\" about being a father and being a son, is about your father. And he was a doctor. He's not practicing anymore, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, very much. And in fact, I really do feel I owe my love for those things to him and to his influence, and above all, I mean, in his, like, lowercase-C catholicity, you know, that he didn't really"}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Yeah. And was he a general practitioner, an internist?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, he's not."}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Oh, OK. So sometimes he took you with him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, he was a pediatrician. He practiced as a pediatrician."}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 23, "text": "And you had a toy blood pressure cuff", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He - well, when he was really young - and this is, I think, fairly - still to this day, happens fairly often, is he would supplement his pretty meager medical student income by doing insurance p"}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 24, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He - well, when he was really young - and this is, I think, fairly - still to this day, happens fairly often, is he would supplement his pretty meager medical student income by doing insurance p"}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 25, "text": "...That you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I had a whole little kit or..."}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 26, "text": "Little doctor bag", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...A whole little plastic bag. Yeah."}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...A whole little plastic bag. Yeah."}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 28, "text": "My guest is Michael Chabon. His new collection of personal essays is called \"Pops: Fatherhood In Pieces.\" We'll talk more after a break. And TV critic David Bianculli will review the new version of the classic \"Rocky And Bullwinkle\" cartoon series. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. With the blood pressure cuff and the candy pills, which, of course, I ate all of immediately. So I was unable to prescribe them to any of my patients thereafter."}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross, back with Michael Chabon. He won a Pulitzer Prize for his novel \"The Amazing Adventures Of Kavalier & Clay.\" His other novels include \"The Yiddish Policemen's Union,\" \"Telegraph Avenue\" and \"Moonlight.\" His new book, \"Pops: Fatherhood In Pieces,\" is a collection of personal essays about being a father and a son. He has four children with his wife, the writer Ayelet Waldman. When we left off, we were talking about his relationship with his father, who was a pediatrician. That's the subject of the book's concluding essay. In the essay, you compare your father's bedside manner with actual patients to his bedside manner with you, his son, when you were sick or when you were injured. And make that comparison for us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. With the blood pressure cuff and the candy pills, which, of course, I ate all of immediately. So I was unable to prescribe them to any of my patients thereafter."}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 30, "text": "Nevertheless, I thought he was being a little nonchalant - like, underplaying it a little bit when you broke your arm. And he fixed it with whatchamacallit tape.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was unquestionably the case that whatever was wrong with me - you know, he's seeing me - let me set the context - he's seeing - at this time when I'm writing about in this essay and for many,"}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 31, "text": "With an Ace bandage, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "An Ace bandage."}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 32, "text": "And an ice scraper from the car - like the kind of thing you'd use in a car to clean up the ice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And an ice scraper."}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 33, "text": "Was that until you went to the hospital? Or was that like - that was the fix?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was so proud of himself too. I can still remember to this day like how the..."}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 34, "text": "So you're walking around with an ice scraper in your arm for how long - for weeks?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, that was it. He set it. He put it on that."}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Were you in a remote region like alone in the woods or something where there were no emergency rooms?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't remember to be honest. I was pretty little. I was about 4 years old. And, you know, I guess it wasn't in his judgment a particularly serious fracture. And, you know, I mean a splint is a"}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 36, "text": "OK. Did you ever talk to him about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, we were in distant Flushing, N.Y. - in the wilds of Flushing, N.Y."}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 37, "text": "So how did your experiences with your father who - your parents were separated I think when you were 11. How did that affect your view of what it meant to be a father and if you wanted to be a father yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, he laughs about it still to this day. And like I said, he was proud - like, he was proud of his - you know, how there's this thing with con men where, like, con men will go to these incredib"}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 38, "text": "You mentioned that when your parents divorced it was at the time of the renaissance of the women's movement. And you also write about your mother and what she went through after the divorce and how you watched her dating men. And you say, my mother had her share of heartache at the hands of ladies' men. What were some of the things you learned about what men do that are things that are really offensive to women, you know, from watching your mother and from hearing her talk about her relationships?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it had a profound impact in a lot of ways. The divorce wave that crashed over American families in the 1970s very much coincided with developments in women's liberation. And at that same"}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 39, "text": "So what did you learn about sexism by watching your daughters grow up? And by the way, I love what you say about men who stand up against sexual harassment because they have daughters - you know, as the father of a daughter. And you're right. The implication is that unless and until a man has a daughter he remains incapable of mastering the empathy required to grant women full status as human beings whose rights and integrity must be respected.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, I think the things that really were burned into me by the experience of seeing how unhappy she could become - I guess the primary things were disloyalty - you know, men running around on"}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 40, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Yeah, you know, that's a bemusing one to me. I mean, from - I guess from my daughters what I've learned is how hard it is - like how even with all of the best intentions in the world and with a"}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 41, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Michael Chabon. He has a new collection of essays about being a father and a son. It's called \"Pops: Fatherhood in Pieces. We're going to take a short break. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, right? So, like, that's what we're up against on one hand. But also, when I would tell people, other parents that story, they would all have similar stories like that. And there was a very s"}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 42, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is writer Michael Chabon. His new book is a collection of essays about being a father and being a son. It's called \"Pops: Fatherhood in Pieces.\" You've written some about Jewish culture in your books and, you know, in fictional settings. What has the place of Judaism been in your life and how has that changed over the years from your childhood to now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, right? So, like, that's what we're up against on one hand. But also, when I would tell people, other parents that story, they would all have similar stories like that. And there was a very s"}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 43, "text": "Why did the collapse of your marriage lead you to that conclusion?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's changed many times. Since I was a kid, you know, I grew up in a kind of very strongly Jewish identified, somewhat observant but far from - you know, far, far from Orthodox household where, "}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 44, "text": "And the Haredi are the ultra-Orthodox.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think in part because whenever my ex-wife and I would talk about having kids one day, we would always get into this argument with - which was my fault - about how they would be raised and, lik"}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 45, "text": "Because it's as much a cultural identity for you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Yeah, the ultra-Orthodox. Yeah. You know, I see that item on the news. I see it. You know, I watch the footage of this. And then maybe I go to services, and I'm looking at the very language that se"}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 46, "text": "Well, I want to get back briefly to your new book, which is a collection of essays about being a father and being a son. And it's called \"Pops: Fatherhood In Pieces.\" Your book is getting published shortly after Mother's Day and before Father's Day with enough time for people to buy it as a Father's Day gift", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Certainly. For me and, I think, for a lot of Jews."}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 47, "text": "as, I think, probably the point.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Certainly. For me and, I think, for a lot of Jews."}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 48, "text": "I'm just wondering if you celebrate either holiday or if you see both holidays as being more a kind of retail holiday where people buy cards and gifts.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The perfect Father's Day stocking stuffer."}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 49, "text": "Mmm hmm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. But - yes, we do. I mean, you know, it's - it may be a retail holiday. It may be a Hallmark holiday. But it - especially, Mother's Day - and in fact, there's this really funny line. You know that"}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 50, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They had this line. Something - it was something like, Father's Day is the Hanukkah of Mother's Day."}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 51, "text": "Michael Chabon, it's been great to talk with you again. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it was - that was so true and so funny. I mean, Father's Day is not so meaningful to me. But, you know - and I think it's partly because as a father, you get so much credit for doing so little. Yo"}
{"id": "612994133", "date": "2018-05-21", "guest": "Michael Chabon", "title": "Novelist Michael Chabon: 'My Family And Kids Have Been My Gang'", "question_index": 52, "text": "Michael Chabon's new collection of personal essays about being a father and a son is called \"Pops: Fatherhood In Pieces.\" After we take a short break, our TV critic David Bianculli will review the new version of the classic \"Rocky And Bullwinkle\" cartoon series. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For me, too, Terry. I really enjoyed it. Thank you."}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. After giving birth to her first daughter, my guest, journalist Angela Garbes, started breastfeeding. She'd been told by medical professionals, books and friends that breast is best, but she didn't understand what was so special about breast milk. So she did some research and wrote an article for the weekly Seattle paper The Stranger, where she was a food writer. What she learned about breast milk amazed her, and it amazed readers, too. The piece went viral. That led her to do further investigation into pregnancy and childbirth. Now she has a new book, called, \"Like A Mother: A Feminist Journey Through The Science And Culture Of Pregnancy.\" You don't have to be a mother or even a woman to be fascinated by the science and physiology that she writes about. Garbes had her first child nearly four years ago when she was 37. She gave birth to her second child just two months ago. A heads-up to parents of young children - we're going to be talking clinically about childbirth and about some of the things that can go wrong. Angela Garbes, welcome to FRESH AIR. So your book is really about your first child, you know, delivering your first child and everything you've learned about childbirth. But I should say you had your second two months ago", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 1, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 2, "text": "So", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 3, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Yeah. How're you doing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I'm still learning a lot."}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm doing OK. Honestly, I'm not totally sure. You enter - I was earlier calling it the milk cave."}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 6, "text": "OK. I think one of the most fascinating chapters in your book is about the placenta.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You enter a necessarily domestic inward place after you have a baby. And having a book out at the same time is an interesting contrast because that goes out into the world, and you have to be a very p"}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 7, "text": "OK. And I want to start by saying, like, you had a friend who had who had given birth who said to you, they might not mention this to you, but, after you're done giving birth to the baby then you first have to expel the placenta, and there's going to be more contractions and something else kind of large", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was my favorite chapter to write."}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 8, "text": "that you have to expel from your body. Were you surprised to hear that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was my favorite chapter to write."}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 9, "text": "So explain what the placenta does. Like, we all know the placenta nourishes the baby. But you describe it as an organ. I never thought of it as, like, an organ. So tell us, like, the basics of what the placenta does.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was. I was. I mean, the way she said it, it was - it felt visceral, something physically real when she said it. And it was - you know, there's so much about pregnancy and childbirth that it's all th"}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 10, "text": "So does it keep growing as the baby grows?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it is an organ. It is an organ. It's a one-time-use organ that grows in a woman's body to support the baby. And it has two interfaces, has two sides. The placenta interfaces with both the mother an"}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 11, "text": "So when you had your first child, you felt really strongly about wanting a vaginal birth. Why was it that important to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It does. It keeps growing, and it can be up to 2 pounds by the time a pregnancy is at term. But it has a very finite lifespan. So when you hit 34 weeks, which is close to full-term pregnancy, it stops"}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 12, "text": "It was also a microbial reason", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I was always fascinated by childbirth and the strength that it takes to birth a child. And I had a strong belief that this is what my body was built to do. This is what women's bodies, female "}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 13, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I was always fascinated by childbirth and the strength that it takes to birth a child. And I had a strong belief that this is what my body was built to do. This is what women's bodies, female "}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 14, "text": "...Why you wanted to do it. Would you explain?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 15, "text": "But it didn't work out that way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. So we're learning more and more these days about the human microbiome, which I find fascinating. So, you know, the number of microbes on your body far outnumber the number of cells in your body."}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 16, "text": "Yeah. You had to have a C-section. So you were having contractions for days.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Definitely not."}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 17, "text": "But you weren't dilating enough for labor, and it turned out the baby was putting pressure on your bladder.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 18, "text": "So explain why this was so dangerous.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The baby was actually obstructing my bladder, or my bladder was obstructing her. Unclear."}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 19, "text": "If you've never had your middle cut in surgery,", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I had been having contractions for a few nights. And the fourth night, I thought that my water had broken. I had gotten up to go to the bathroom, and I threw up and a gush of fluid came out of my v"}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 20, "text": ", you might think, well, they just kind of make an incision and pull out the baby. But there's a lot of layers of tissue and muscle and stuff that has to be cut through.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I had been having contractions for a few nights. And the fourth night, I thought that my water had broken. I had gotten up to go to the bathroom, and I threw up and a gush of fluid came out of my v"}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. This is something that I..."}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 22, "text": "You think maybe it's just as well that women, for the most part, don't know what they're in store for with that so that they don't focus...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't even know this. I didn't know what happened to my body until afterwards. Because I wasn't prepared for a Caesarean. It never occurred to me that that might happen. Meanwhile, I was born via C"}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 23, "text": "...Too much on it in advance and worry about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I..."}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Was the recovery hard for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But that's me as a journalist, as a writer, as a really curious person and someone who's very fascinated by the human body. I think that it would be - I would always, though, err on the side of offe"}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 25, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is journalist Angela Garbes. She's the author of the new book \"Like A Mother: A Feminist Journey Through The Science And Culture Of Pregnancy.\" We're going to take a short break, and then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was really hard. I couldn't go up and down the stairs in our house without a lot of pain. I couldn't take a significant walk, which was the main form of exercise that I had late in my first pregnan"}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is journalist Angela Garbes. Her new book is called \"Like A Mother: A Feminist Journey Through The Science And Culture Of Pregnancy.\" She has two children. One of them was born in 2014 when she was 37, and her second child was born two months ago", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was really hard. I couldn't go up and down the stairs in our house without a lot of pain. I couldn't take a significant walk, which was the main form of exercise that I had late in my first pregnan"}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 27, "text": "when Angela was 40. And I want to say, before we go any further, that we're going to be talking, you know, pretty clinically about childbirth. So if that's too explicit for you, or if you have children and you feel it's inappropriate for them to hear it, just - you know, I want you to know so you can decide. So you had to have a C-section. I'm wondering, if you did not get the C-section, would you have survived childbirth?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was really hard. I couldn't go up and down the stairs in our house without a lot of pain. I couldn't take a significant walk, which was the main form of exercise that I had late in my first pregnan"}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 28, "text": "Do you think about that a lot?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know, Terry. I don't know."}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 29, "text": "It's a chilling thing to hear, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", right? And so I think more - I focus on what I do have, right? But yeah - and, you know, actually, this - in my second pregnancy, my baby was - the second baby was transverse, which is - so normally"}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 30, "text": "Was it hard for you - I guess you had no choice but to go for the C-section the second time around.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yes. It's terrifying, and it's chilling, and it really puts things in perspective, you know, about what's important here. And, again, I think if we didn't emphasize - if we didn't have this wide"}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 31, "text": "So before you wrote this new book, you wrote an article for the Seattle Weekly The Stranger about breastfeeding because you were breastfeeding your first child and you wanted to know so what is it exactly that makes breast milk so special? That article went viral, which kind of led you to write this new book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", it was - I did have a choice. And I went through a few different things, which is that I - after weeks of - I tried a lot of things to turn that baby. I was hanging off of my couch doing inversions "}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 32, "text": "So what are some of the differences between breast milk and formula?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 33, "text": "What do the microbes in the breast milk do in the body of the baby?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So breast milk is living. It's dynamic. So it has - to go back to the concept of microbes, it has microbes and things that exist in the mother's body. And so it adapts to the baby's needs. And formula"}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 34, "text": "And maybe also to a better immune system?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the microbes in breast milk will go and they will help seal the intestinal tract. And they encourage a healthy community of microbes in the baby's gut, which leads to better intestinal and digestiv"}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 35, "text": "And this, I found this amazing. You say that the breast milk changes according to the baby's needs. Like, how would the milk know what the baby's needs are?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes."}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 36, "text": "My guest is journalist Angela Garbes. Her new book is called \"Like A Mother: A Feminist Journey Through The Science And Culture Of Pregnancy.\" We'll talk more after a break. Also, John Powers will review the new TV series \"The Split\" about a family whose business is family law. And Ken Tucker will review the new album by singer and songwriter Courtney Barnett. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So research indicates that when a baby suckles at its mother's breast, a vacuum is created. And so some of that baby's saliva is sucked into the mother's nipple. And there are receptors in her mammary"}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 37, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross back with journalist Angela Garbes, author of the new book \"Like A Mother: A Feminist Journey Through The Science And Culture Of Pregnancy.\" The book is part journalism and part memoir. She had her first child at the age of 37 in 2014. She gave birth to her second child just two months ago. When we left off, we were talking about breastfeeding and the unique qualities of breast milk. When you're writing about breastfeeding, you also write about how at first, you thought, like, well, this will be more efficient, it'll be less time consuming than doing formulas. And then you figured out uh-uh", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So research indicates that when a baby suckles at its mother's breast, a vacuum is created. And so some of that baby's saliva is sucked into the mother's nipple. And there are receptors in her mammary"}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 38, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So research indicates that when a baby suckles at its mother's breast, a vacuum is created. And so some of that baby's saliva is sucked into the mother's nipple. And there are receptors in her mammary"}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 39, "text": "How much time - are you breastfeeding now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, no. I mean, we talk about - I naively thought, you know, breastfeeding is free. And what I've since realized is breastfeeding is only free if we don't value women's time."}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 40, "text": "Yeah, give us a sense of how much time it takes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I am breastfeeding now."}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 41, "text": "And the problem is not just that it's time consuming, but, like, you're literally losing time at work. And maybe you can't work because of all the time you're losing. That's what you mean by it literally costing you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So an infant as young as mine - she's under 3 months old. She eats every two to three hours. And when you start the clock on two to three hours, it's not when the baby's finished eating, it's when the"}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 42, "text": "Did you ever taste your own breast milk?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. There's a study that I cited in my book that says that - and this is - one version is that they measured it, and they said, you know, the first six months of breastfeeding is the equivalent of ab"}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 43, "text": "How'd it taste to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I have."}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 44, "text": "Was it hard for you to decide whether you wanted to taste it yourself or not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sweet."}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 45, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is journalist Angela Garbes. And her new book is called \"Like A Mother: A Feminist Journey Through The Science And Culture Of Pregnancy.\" We're having, you know, a pretty clinical talk about pregnancy and childbirth. So you know, just in terms of - if you're listening with a child, you probably would want to be aware of that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's mostly - it's sort of, like, incidental contact, you know. Like, breast milk just - it drips. It sprays. It - you know, usually when I wake up in the middle of the night, sometimes the shee"}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 46, "text": "Yeah. I understand exactly what you're saying. The place where I part company from you a little bit is, I imagine - I remember when I first found out where babies come from. And I thought, no, that's impossible.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Can I say that I think it's - I appreciate that you're giving that heads-up to your listeners. But it's also really interesting to me because - of course, people can make decisions about what they thi"}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 47, "text": "And I think, you know, most girls, anyways, go through that same thing. Like, no.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Can I say that I think it's - I appreciate that you're giving that heads-up to your listeners. But it's also really interesting to me because - of course, people can make decisions about what they thi"}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 48, "text": "You've made a mistake. Don't lie to me. Like, that's inconceivable. And it's so shocking 'cause you don't really understand, like, how a body can change to accommodate, you know, birth. And it can be a pretty upsetting thought, when you're a kid, to think about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 49, "text": "Well, I think - a difference between adults and children...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. No. you're right. I'm so deep into - I'm in this place where I think everyone should know about this because I'll find it - it's so interesting..."}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 50, "text": "...In terms of what they should know. And I think it's - I mean, I agree with you. I think it's great for adult men and women to really understand what's happening in the body when somebody gives birth because women are going through this. And I think a lot of men, particularly men years ago, like, really didn't comprehend what goes on. And it can seem pretty simple when you're not, like, in the room or being told...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. No. you're right. I'm so deep into - I'm in this place where I think everyone should know about this because I'll find it - it's so interesting..."}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 51, "text": "...Exactly what's going on. And it's not simple.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 52, "text": "So this is a very personal question to ask. So you're welcome to tell me you don't want to answer it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it's incredibly complex. And we know so little about it. And it is the most essential biological process. We all go through it."}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 53, "text": "So before you gave birth to your daughter, you had two miscarriages and an abortion. I don't know the circumstances of the abortion. But when you were trying to get pregnant and then you had a miscarriage during one of those tries, did you find yourself regretting that you'd had an abortion?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 54, "text": "There are some things you'd like to see changed in kind of typical maternity procedures. One is that you think everybody should routinely have a doula as part of their childbirth.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Certainly after I miscarried, I had - there are so many thoughts that you have. And you're - you're grieving. And so it's very complicated. And it definitely - the thought did pass through my mind"}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 55, "text": "Access to a doula.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think - it's not specifically that everyone - everyone should have access to a doula..."}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 56, "text": "So you're talking about health insurance here?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...If they want that. But what really..."}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 57, "text": "One of the things you would like to see all women routinely get after childbirth is physical therapy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Health insurance or just know that that's an option for them, ideally. I mean, there's - I feel like we're so far from that. What I really - what I want - and I make this point in the book that, you k"}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 58, "text": "That seems really obvious to me, but I know it is not part of the standard protocol.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 59, "text": "So last question. Did you have to pump before coming to the station to record this interview?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I found movement - you know, I started taking a regular dance class and that really helped me, and that made me feel strong in my body again and really relieved a lot of the pain that I was experi"}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 60, "text": "So are you anxious to get back home to your baby?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 61, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not really. I mean..."}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 62, "text": "Well, I wish you good luck with your new book. I learned so much from it. Thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "613314968", "date": "2018-05-22", "guest": "Angela Garbes", "title": "New Book Explores The Science Of Pregnancy 'Like A Mother'", "question_index": 63, "text": "Angela Garbes is the author of the new book, \"Like A Mother: A Feminist Journey Through The Science And Culture Of Pregnancy.\" After a break, Ken Tucker will review the new album by singer and songwriter Courtney Barnett. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much. It was a pleasure and a real thrill to talk with you, Terry."}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Ronan Farrow, has had a remarkable year of reporting. He won a Pulitzer Prize last month, shared with The New York Times, for his articles in The New Yorker about allegations that Harvey Weinstein sexually assaulted actresses. In another article, he reported on how Weinstein used an Israeli private intelligence firm to compile dossiers and track women and journalists to try to suppress or discredit the allegations. Farrow reported on how the same Israeli company that helped Weinstein also collected information on Obama administration officials who worked on the Iran nuclear agreement looking for ways to discredit them. This month, Farrow broke a story about Trump's personal attorney, Michael Cohen, and his suspicious financial activity. Also this month, Farrow, along with The New Yorker's Jane Mayer, broke the story of four women who accused New York Attorney General Eric Schneiderman of nonconsensual physical violence. Schneiderman resigned within three hours of the story's publication. Farrow also has just published a new book called \"War On Peace: The End Of Diplomacy And The Decline Of American Influence.\" Farrow has a remarkable personal story, too. He's the son of Mia Farrow and Woody Allen. He grew up with 13 siblings. Many of them had disabilities and were adopted from other countries. He started college at the age of 11 and went to Yale Law School at 16. By the age of 20, he was working for Richard Holbrooke in the Obama State Department. Ronan Farrow, welcome to FRESH AIR, and congratulations on this remarkable year of reporting that you've had.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 1, "text": "What was happening in your life when you decided to write \"War On Peace\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much, Terry. It's good to be here."}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 2, "text": "You started working at the State Department when you were 20 with Richard Holbrooke, who was then the special envoy for Pakistan and Afghanistan. What was your job description?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, this project gestated for a long time, and then with the advent of the Trump administration, the exact trend line I was talking about, decimating American diplomacy, reached this new nadir. "}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 3, "text": "So if it was \"Ocean's Eleven,\" where did you fit in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So Richard Holbrooke, who was, you know, the embodiment of establishment foreign policy in a lot of ways, also had this very firm and I think very admirable commitment to bringing in new ideas and n"}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I was like the intern of the \"Ocean's Eleven\" team. You know, I think I would have been cut for economy of characters in a movie script."}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 5, "text": "So you write about how diplomats are losing their importance in an era when foreign policy has been militarized. What's an example of that that you saw in the Obama administration when you were working in the administration?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But my job was to liaise with the human rights groups, the nongovernmental groups on the ground. And a big part of Richard Holbrooke's idea for Afghanistan and Pakistan was to stop this practice of pu"}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 6, "text": "So meanwhile, under the Trump administration, the president seems to be dismantling much of the State Department. What are some of the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Obama is often remembered by liberal commentators, I think, through rose-colored glasses in this particular respect because we think of him in Cairo sounding extremely inclusive in that famous spee"}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 7, "text": "...Biggest ways you think that the Trump administration has been succeeding?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 8, "text": "So there's a scene in the book - you're basically having your job interview with Richard Holbrooke, and you're following him around. You follow him home to his townhouse where he keeps asking you questions, really complicated questions. He goes into the shower, and with the shower running, he's still kind of interviewing you. And the thing about that scene is like if you were a woman, he shouldn't be doing that. If you were a woman, that could easily be interpreted as...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You look at this dynamic under Barack Obama, especially in the first term where diplomats were frequently sidelined and left at the margins of the rooms where decisions were being made - they are no l"}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 9, "text": "...Sexual harassment. And the thing is, like, a lot of guys think, well, like, yeah, it's hard to hire a woman because you can't do what you usually do, right? And if what you usually do is talk to people while you're showering, then you have to change your behavior because, oh, I hired a woman. Do you know what I mean? And I was wondering if you were thinking about that because...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course, of course."}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 10, "text": "...It's the kind of thing that stand in - it's the kind of thing that stands in the way of a lot of people hiring women, that they feel like I can't...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course I thought about it and I..."}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 11, "text": "They can't behave the way they do around the guys.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure, and it's..."}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Ronan Farrow. And his new book is called \"War On Peace: The End Of Diplomacy And The Decline Of American Influence.\" And he shared a Pulitzer Prize this year with The New York Times for uncovering the story of Harvey Weinstein's sexual harassment and assault of actresses. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know, and not even being aware of his surroundings. I never in my time working with him knew him to be, you know, harassing or intimidating in any way. He was famously a bully and had a lot of b"}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Ronan Farrow who's now a contributing writer for The New Yorker. He - when he was 20, he got a job working with the State Department on Richard Holbrooke's team. And his new book is called \"War On Peace: The End Of Diplomacy And The Decline Of American Influence.\" Well, Ronan, this year, you shared a Pulitzer Prize for your reporting on Harvey Weinstein's sexual harassment and sexual assault of actresses. You share the prize with Jodi Kantor and Megan Twohey of the Times. How did you first get onto the story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know, and not even being aware of his surroundings. I never in my time working with him knew him to be, you know, harassing or intimidating in any way. He was famously a bully and had a lot of b"}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Do you think that women were trusting of you in part because they knew about your sister Dylan who had written about being sexually abused by your father, Woody Allen? And you wrote about Dylan, too. So they had reason to believe that you would be sensitive to and understanding about the situation and also the risks of going public 'cause you knew firsthand how you could be attacked when you go public - how you could be disbelieved and the more powerful person wins.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had been an investigative reporter and an anchor at MSNBC and NBC News for a number of years and had been trying to break stories that kind of spoke truth to power much in the way the Weinstein stor"}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 15, "text": "One of the stories you wrote was about how Harvey Weinstein hired an Israeli private intelligence firm called Black Cube to uncover information that would smear the women who are going forward about how Weinstein had sexually harassed or assaulted and therefore cast doubt on their accusations. And some people in this Israeli private intelligence firm are former Mossad agents, the Israeli intelligence agency. Was Black Cube trying to smear you as well?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You'd have to ask those brave sources. You know, they had to relive what, for many of them, was the worst moment of a lifetime. You're exactly right. They had to stare down the prospect of career anni"}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 16, "text": "And they had people posing as reporters going to the women.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, and that's something that I already, you know, reported when we went public with the Black Cube story. They were, through that firm and an array of other firms that Harvey Weinstein had retained,"}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 17, "text": "My guest is Ronan Farrow. He won a Pulitzer Prize last month for his reporting on allegations that Harvey Weinstein sexually assaulted actresses. Farrow is a contributing writer for The New Yorker. His new book is called \"War On Peace: The End Of Diplomacy And The Decline Of American Influence.\" We'll talk more about his reporting and his life after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was also a component of their work. And, you know, this continues to be a facet of the system employed by powerful people hoping to distort the news cycle. You know, I reported just in the last f"}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Ronan Farrow, who has a new book called \"War And Peace: The End Of Diplomacy And The Decline Of American Influence.\" It's based in part on what he observed when he worked with Richard Holbrooke in the Obama State Department. Farrow is a contributing writer at The New Yorker, where he's recently broken several major stories. Last month, he won a Pulitzer Prize, shared with The New York Times, for his reporting on allegations that Harvey Weinstein sexually assaulted actresses. When we left off, we were talking about Farrow's reporting on Black Cube, a private intelligence agency that Weinstein hired to collect information on, intimidate and smear the reputations of the women and journalists trying to expose the allegations against him. You know, you mentioned the similarity between how Black Cube tried to smear the reputation of women who were making charges about sexual harassment and assault against Harvey Weinstein and to try to get information from or smear reporters covering the story. And at the same time, political people, people who'd worked in the Obama administration, there was an attempt to smear them to undercut the Iran deal. A similar phenomenon happens with American Media Inc., the media company that owns the tabloid the National Enquirer, to affect both people in politics and women coming forward.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was also a component of their work. And, you know, this continues to be a facet of the system employed by powerful people hoping to distort the news cycle. You know, I reported just in the last f"}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 19, "text": "How did Black Cube, the Israeli private intelligence company, or anyone else on behalf of Harvey Weinstein, target you and try to either smear you or suppress your reporting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. And one of the things that's, you know, made numerous reporters in the mainstream media a target of some of these intermediaries like American Media and the National Enquirer is the exposu"}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 20, "text": "And you're right to write a book about it. I look forward to reading it. In the meantime, did Harvey Weinstein threaten you personally?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I will say, broadly speaking, this is something that should not happen, that reporters working on a story are threatened and intimidated and smeared. And it happens more than you would think. And "}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Can you tell us what he said?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Will you tell us in the future?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 23, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 24, "text": "OK. So you grew up in a family that was in the tabloids - or at least I'm sure the tabloids wanted your family to be in it because your mother, Mia Farrow, was famous. She was partners with Woody Allen. She had been married to Frank Sinatra. She adopted many people from - many children from African and Asian countries who had, you know, cognitive or physical disabilities. So tabloids love that kind of stuff. Did you have to defend yourselves against the tabloids when you were growing up? Did your family have to do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You in particular, Terry."}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 25, "text": "So when you were young, traveling with your mother to developing countries in Africa and going to villages where there was a lot of, like, illness and poverty, what was it like for you at a young age to be witnessing some of the worst hands that life could deal?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very much so. You know, the media was a very intrusive presence in my childhood. And there were periods where I would be, you know, rammed through crowds of paparazzi to get to school. And, you know, "}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 26, "text": "So let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Ronan Farrow. And he's been doing some incredible reporting this year. He shared a Pulitzer Prize with The New York Times for uncovering Harvey Weinstein's sexual harassment and assault of actresses. And he - Ronan Farrow writes for The New Yorker. And now he also has a new book, which is called \"War On Peace: The End Of Diplomacy And The Decline Of American Influence.\" We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In a sense, it started even earlier than that, Terry, because, as you mentioned before, many of my siblings, you know, the people I love and care about most in life were adopted from around the world "}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 27, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is Ronan Farrow, and his new book is called \"War On Peace: The End Of Diplomacy And The Decline Of American Influence.\" He worked in the State Department with Richard Holbrooke during the Obama administration. And this started when Ronan was, like - what? - 20.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In a sense, it started even earlier than that, Terry, because, as you mentioned before, many of my siblings, you know, the people I love and care about most in life were adopted from around the world "}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 28, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, about 20. I had this Doogie Howser trajectory in school, Terry."}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 29, "text": "And you both did well. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I was very nerdy and skipped a lot of grades."}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 30, "text": "So - and this year, he shared a Pulitzer Prize with Jodi Kantor and Megan Twohey of The New York Times for exposing Harvey Weinstein's sexual harassment and sexual assault of actresses. And Ronan Farrow is a contributing writer to The New Yorker. You got a bone injury when you were in Sudan. Was this working with the State Department or was this traveling with your mother?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I was very nerdy and skipped a lot of grades."}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 31, "text": "Why were you there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This was earlier than that, and it went untreated for a while while I was traveling, and there were years and years of complications and being in and out of the hospital and..."}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 32, "text": "Mmm hmm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Why was I in Sudan?"}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 33, "text": "I see, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This was during the period where I was volunteering for UNICEF."}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 34, "text": "How did it affect you to be unable to walk for the better part of four years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But it extended over - these complications were something like four years where I was sort of in and out of crutches and wheelchairs and it extended right through portions of my time in law school. An"}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Doing the math, it seems it was around the year 16 to 20.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a huge, formative influence, Terry. And, you know, I'm cautious not to overplay this because I'm also very fortunate to be, you know, not struggling with disability right now, but it did give m"}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 36, "text": "Did that lead you to spend more time than you otherwise might have doing things like reading and writing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, so, you know, right in the windows where what you want most desperately is just to fit in and, you know, date and dance and be human. And when one is grappling with severe illness, you know, lif"}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 37, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's really interesting. I don't know. I tried not to let it stop me. You know, there was a funny moment where I guess this would have been during law school I had, you know, like metal halos drille"}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 38, "text": "Where did you buy Hammer pants?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I looked completely absurd, and I did all this stuff in the Hammer pants. Like, I testified before a congressional committee on human rights stuff. And I, you know, started doing my first kind of "}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 39, "text": "Wow. What a great look.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wish they'd actually been, like, true, shiny Hammer pants. I think that they were stretchy pajama bottoms in plaid, if I recall, which really makes it all worse."}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 40, "text": "So, you know, you talked about how when you had your bone infection and were - you were in a wheelchair and on crutches, you realized that the passport to health and to, you know, a, quote, \"normal life\" could be revoked at any moment. You also learned that a successful career could be revoked at any moment as well. You had been an anchor at MSNBC. You had your own afternoon show. That ended. And then you were continuing to report for NBC but maybe as a result - I think as a result of the Harvey Weinstein reporting you wanted to do - that they were not anxious to have you pursue - that job ended, but you were kind of out in the cold for a while.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a look, Terry."}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 41, "text": "When you say let the story go, you mean the Harvey Weinstein story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that's right. There was a low point last year where I did not know if I would have a job in journalism in a matter of weeks or indeed ever again and was being told by some very powerful people th"}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 42, "text": "And then you landed at The New Yorker.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Harvey Weinstein reporting. I had been ordered to stop reporting and cancel interviews, and I didn't."}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 43, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Ronan Farrow who's now a contributing writer for The New Yorker. And his new book is called \"War On Peace: The End Of Diplomacy And The Decline Of American Influence.\" We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Every single person at every echelon of management there is a true journalist, and they stick up for dangerous and difficult stories. And, you know, after being completely exposed to legal and physi"}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 44, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Ronan Farrow. And he shared a Pulitzer Prize with Jodi Kantor and Megan Twohey of The New York Times for exposing Harvey Weinstein's sexual harassment and sexual assault of actresses. And his new book is called \"War On Peace: The End Of Diplomacy And The Decline Of American Influence.\" You know, there was a long period when your sister Dylan had made allegations against your father, Woody Allen, for sexually abusing her when she was a child. And a lot of people didn't believe it, and Woody Allen's career continued to thrive. Do you think that your reporting on Harvey Weinstein and sexual harassment and assault in Hollywood changed things in the dynamic between whether people would believe your sister or Woody Allen? And do you think it has changed his career status in Hollywood and people's willingness to work with him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Every single person at every echelon of management there is a true journalist, and they stick up for dangerous and difficult stories. And, you know, after being completely exposed to legal and physi"}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 45, "text": "So I want to ask you a question about when you were young. You went to college at - how old?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "very gradually. And when you look at the reputation of any individual whose legacy has been clouded by a credible allegation of sexual assault and the way in which they're treated by the press, I thin"}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 46, "text": "And that wasn't just, like, a college course while you were in junior high or high school. That was like - you went to college.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Eleven."}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 47, "text": "How does that even happen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, that was - that was college."}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 48, "text": "It's interesting that you were so achievement-oriented, you know, in a family where so many of your siblings who were adopted had some kind of physical or developmental issue that they faced.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...It's sort of, you know, this \"X-Men\" style - you know, you get recruited. And you go take college courses in the summer. And I had just been bored with grade school work. And they had already kind "}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 49, "text": "So one more question, and this might sound strange to you, but this is a Richard Holbrooke question. He died while he was working in the Obama administration, in the State Department, and it was a heart condition. It was a heart problem that killed him. And it was all - it seemed like it was very sudden. He was rushed to the emergency room and never made it out of the hospital. And I think some people were thinking, well, work kind of killed him, that he was working so hard and traveling so much that the stress just kind of, you know, ended it for him. You were, I think, pretty close to him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I mean, I imagine there is a link between those two things, and probably a better psychologist than I could, you know, ferret that out. I did feel that there was very little space for me to act o"}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 50, "text": "What impact did his death have on you and in seeing how stress and just, like, sheer overwork might - it might not have had to do with that, but it might have affected him, and you're certainly somebody who is - you know, who is hardworking.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 51, "text": "Well, Ronan Farrow, thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, if you ask his widow, the wonderful writer Kati Marton, about this, you know, she is very fairly defensive of his legacy and I think doesn't like the idea that he had a, you know, tragic end"}
{"id": "613495834", "date": "2018-05-23", "guest": "Ronan Farrow", "title": "Ronan Farrow: 'I Was Raised With An Extraordinary Sense Of Public Service'", "question_index": 52, "text": "Ronan Farrow is a contributing writer for The New Yorker and author of the new book \"War On Peace: The End Of Diplomacy And The Decline Of American Influence.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we remember writer Philip Roth, who died yesterday at the age of 85. His New York Times obituary described him as exploring what it means to be an American, a Jew, a writer and a man. I did several interviews with him, so we'll do a two-day tribute in which we'll feature interviews about his books \"Portnoy's Complaint,\" \"The Plot Against America\" and \"Everyman,\" a novel about aging and mortality. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. Great to be here."}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Richard Rodgers and Oscar Hammerstein had one of the most successful musical partnerships of the 20th century, collaborating on the musicals \"Oklahoma!,\" \"Carousel,\" \"South Pacific,\" \"The King And I,\" \"Flower Drum Song,\" \"Cinderella\" and \"The Sound Of Music\" - musicals that continue to be revived. A new revival of \"Carousel\" is nominated for 11 Tonys. In the new book \"Something Wonderful: Rodgers And Hammerstein's Broadway Revolution,\" my guest Todd Purdum tells the story of their partnership. Purdum loves their music, but he's best known as a political reporter. He's now a contributing editor for Vanity Fair and senior writer for Politico. We're going to hear some Rodgers and Hammerstein cast recordings. Purdum also selected for us a couple of interview excerpts with Rodgers and Hammerstein that we'll hear later. Our interview was originally broadcasted in April. We started with one of the Rodgers and Hammerstein songs that have had a long life beyond Broadway. This is Sarah Vaughan and Miles Davis doing their version of the song \"It Might As Well Be Spring,\" which Rodgers and Hammerstein wrote for the 1945 movie musical \"State Fair.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 1, "text": "Todd Purdum, welcome back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I'm as restless as a willow in a wind storm. I'm as jumpy as a puppet on a string. I'd say that I had spring fever, but I know it isn't spring."}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 2, "text": "So before there was a Rodgers and Hammerstein, there was a Rodgers and Hart. Rodgers and Hart had a very long partnership. Hart's death officially ended their partnership. But it was already ending. So before we get to how Hammerstein entered the picture, why were things between Rodgers and Hart so rocky at the end?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a pleasure to be here."}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 3, "text": "So at the end of the Rodgers and Hart partnership, Rodgers was ready to kind of leave Hart if Hart didn't stop drinking. He even offered to go to a sanitarium with him. But what happened was Hart just died. So Rodgers then teamed up with Oscar Hammerstein. How did their relationship start?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they had been close friends and partners for more than two decades, Terry. But as you point out, as 1942 rolled around, Larry Hart was increasingly falling prey to a problem that had plagued him"}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 4, "text": "So because Rodgers and Hammerstein are such a famous pair now and their songs and their shows are so famous, we take it for granted that people always recognized what a great pairing this would be. But that's actually not what happened. Yeah, initially there was a lot of skepticism about them. And I want to play a clip that you suggested to us. And it's an interview from 1960 in which Tony Thomas is interviewing Richard Rodgers and asking why it was so hard to get \"Oklahoma!\" off the ground.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they'd known each other for years. Oscar Hammerstein was a contemporary of Larry Hart's at Columbia University and of Richard Rodgers' older brother, Morty. And Rodgers had known him starting as"}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 5, "text": "So that was Richard Rodgers being interviewed in 1960. And my guest Todd Purdum is the author of the new book \"Something Wonderful: Rodgers And Hammerstein's Broadway Revolution.\" So \"Oklahoma!\" was considered a breakthrough. What made it a breakthrough?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. But nobody took that very seriously. These were two amateur songs that we wrote together for a college show. And there was an almost superstitious feeling on the part of the people in the busines"}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 6, "text": "So \"Green Grow The Lilacs,\" the play that \"Oklahoma!\" was adapted from, was written in France by a 29-year-old gay cowboy turned poet and playwright who was from Oklahoma. And you say he was trying in that play to capture his nostalgic feelings about growing up in Oklahoma before it was a state. So Hammerstein worked the stage directions into his lyric for \"Oh, What A Beautiful Morning,\" which is one of the songs from \"Oklahoma!\" Would you read the stage directions? And then we'll hear the song. And we'll see how Hammerstein worked in the stage directions into the lyric.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, for one thing almost all musical comedies of that era opened with a big choral number to satisfy latecomers. The rustling playbills, they'd get them adjusted. They'd have a display of pulchritud"}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 7, "text": "OK. So do you want to say anything about how that was worked into \"Oh, What A Beautiful Morning\" before we hear the song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Here's what Lynn Riggs wrote in the stage directions to the prologue to the play. (Reading) It is a radiant summer morning several years ago. The kind of morning which enveloping the shapes of Earth, "}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 8, "text": "OK. So let's hear it. And this is Alfred Drake from the original cast recording.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so Oscar Hammerstein took that kind of ripe passage of prose and turned it into the first poetry that he ever wrote to give to Richard Rodgers in the opening lyrics of \"Oh, What A Beautiful Morn"}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 9, "text": "So that's from the original cast recording of \"Oklahoma.\" My guest Todd Purdum is a journalist who's written a new book about Rodgers and Hammerstein called \"Something Wonderful.\" And that - \"Something Wonderful\" was one of the songs from the Rodgers and Hammerstein show \"The King And I.\" So another thing about \"Oklahoma!\" is that, you know, it's considered the first or maybe the second", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) There's a bright golden haze on the meadow. There's a bright golden haze on the meadow. The corn is as high as an elephant's eye, and it looks like it's climbing clear up to the sky. Oh, wha"}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 10, "text": "Broadway show that actually had a cast album, although cast albums weren't then what they are now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) There's a bright golden haze on the meadow. There's a bright golden haze on the meadow. The corn is as high as an elephant's eye, and it looks like it's climbing clear up to the sky. Oh, wha"}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 11, "text": "So Richard Rodgers had a different approach to writing songs with Hammerstein than he did with Hart. And he was asked about that in a 1960 interview with Tony Thomas. And we're going to play a short excerpt of that interview in which Rodgers talks about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, they were actually albums full of 78s and brown paper sleeves. But the genius of \"Oklahoma!\" was that Decca Records decided to record the original cast, the original orchestrations. They put it ou"}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 12, "text": "OK. So that was Richard Rodgers in 1960. Todd Purdum, what were some of the other differences that Rodgers faced writing with Hammerstein as opposed to with Larry Hart?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And that was logical enough. Oscar is one of the few people in the entire world who has a - I'm talking about lyric-wise, of course - who has a tremendous sense of construction. And without a tun"}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 13, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Todd Purdum. He's a journalist who's written a new book called \"Something Wonderful: Rodgers And Hammerstein's Broadway Revolution.\" We'll take a break, and then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, for one thing, Hammerstein's habits were extremely regular. He was just as predictable as Larry Hart was unpredictable. But he and Dick usually didn't work in the same room. Hammerstein usually "}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Todd Purdum, who you might know as a political journalist with Vanity Fair and with Politico. But now he's written a book about Rodgers and Hammerstein. It's called \"Something Wonderful.\" So a beautiful song from \"Carousel\" is \"If I Loved You.\" And Stephen Sondheim, who was mentored by Oscar Hammerstein - and Hammerstein was like a surrogate father for Sondheim - he called \"If I Loved You\" probably the singular, most important moment in the evolution of contemporary musicals. What does Sondheim think is so important about that song and how it's done in the show?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, for one thing, Hammerstein's habits were extremely regular. He was just as predictable as Larry Hart was unpredictable. But he and Dick usually didn't work in the same room. Hammerstein usually "}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 15, "text": "So let's hear an excerpt of \"If I Loved You\" from the original cast recording of \"Carousel.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in the show, \"If I Loved You\" is set in the middle of an extended scene of spoken dialogue, sung dialogue and the purely sung song. It's known as the bench scene. And it's when the hero of the s"}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 16, "text": "So that was \"If I Loved You\" from the original cast recording of \"Carousel.\" And we had Jan Clayton and John Raitt, who, in addition to being a famous Broadway singer, was Bonnie Raitt's father. So it's interesting to compare the original lyrics of that song with lyrics that were actually used. So I'm going to ask you to read some of the original lyrics, if you don't mind.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nothing. I know what it'd be like. It'd be awful. I can just see myself. (Singing) Kind of scrawny and pale, picking at my food and lovesick like any other guy. I'd throw away my sweater and dress up "}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 17, "text": "You want to compare that to the final lyric?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So in a way, Hammerstein's first attempt at a lyric was just as halting as the would-be lovers' own proclamations. (Reading) If I loved you, I would tremble every time you'd say my name. But I'd long "}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well it's certainly a testament to the benefit of a second draft. I told my children in writing this book..."}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 19, "text": "My guest is Todd Purdum, author of the new book \"Something Wonderful: Rodgers And Hammerstein's Broadway Revolution.\" We'll talk more and hear more music after a break. Right now let's hear a song Rodgers and Hammerstein wrote for \"Oklahoma!\", another song that's had a long afterlife. This is \"People Will Say We're In Love\" from the Ray Charles-Betty Carter album. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I showed some of these things to them, said, this is why you have to write your papers two or three times. You don't just go with the first inspiration. So at the end, what Oscar produced was this. (R"}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross, back with Todd Purdum, author of the new book \"Something Wonderful: Rodgers And Hammerstein's Broadway Revolution.\" It's about their collaboration that gave us such enduring musicals as \"Oklahoma!\", \"Carousel,\" \"South Pacific,\" \"The King And I\" and \"The Sound Of Music.\" So the star - the female star of \"South Pacific\" was Mary Martin, who later starred in Rodgers and Hammerstein's \"The Sound Of Music.\" And you tell a great story about how Oscar Hammerstein had first auditioned her in the 1930s, you know, like a decade before she was in \"South Pacific.\" That didn't go so well. Tell us that story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Don't start collecting things. Give me my rose and my glove."}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 21, "text": "Well, why don't we hear Mary Martin singing the title song from \"The Sound Of Music\"? Do you want to say anything about how Rodgers and Hammerstein wrote this song before we hear it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she'd come out to Hollywood from Weatherford, Texas, where she'd had a dance school. And she was a contract player at Paramount Pictures and making some musicals with Bing Crosby and other peopl"}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 22, "text": "OK. So here's Mary Martin.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One thing to keep in mind as you listen to Mary Martin sing this song is that she was almost 46 years old when the show opened. She was playing a young postulant. But the conventions of theater were s"}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 23, "text": "That was Mary Martin from the original cast recording of \"Sound Of Music.\" My guest Todd Purdum is the author of the new book \"Something Wonderful: Rodgers And Hammerstein's Broadway Revolution.\" Boy, the songs in that show have such staying power. Just last night, as I was finishing reading your book, a commercial came on TV for Volvo that's using \"My Favorite Things\" as the music in the ad.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) The hills are alive with the sound of music, with songs they have sung for a thousand years. The hills fill my heart with the sound of music. My heart wants to sing every song it hears. My h"}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 24, "text": "So I don't know how you feel about this, but there's the people who think Hammerstein's lyrics are a little too sentimental and corny some of the time and those who don't. I'm kind of on the side of sometimes they're a little too sentimental and corny. But apparently, Stephen Sondheim, who was mentored by Hammerstein, was like his son - he takes issue with some of Hammerstein's lyrics. Like, in \"Sound Of Music,\" which we just heard, the line like a lark who is learning to prey, Sondheim hates that line", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, it's ubiquitous. It's part of the soundtrack of life. When you go to Disneyland, songs from \"Oklahoma!\" - \"The Surrey With The Fringe On Top\" and \"Everything's Up To Date In Kansas City\""}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 25, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, it's ubiquitous. It's part of the soundtrack of life. When you go to Disneyland, songs from \"Oklahoma!\" - \"The Surrey With The Fringe On Top\" and \"Everything's Up To Date In Kansas City\""}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 26, "text": "I mean, on the other hand, like, Billy Bigelow in \"Carousel,\" you know, hits his wife.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, Sondheim is under no illusions. He's thinks Oscar Hammerstein saved his life. And, you know, he once said that Oscar was a man of limited talent and infinite soul, and Richard Rodgers was a man of"}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 27, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Todd Purdum. He's a political reporter. But his new book is about Rodgers and Hammerstein. It's called \"Something Wonderful.\" We're going to take a short break, and then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's very uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable in the original play, \"Liliom.\" And it's uncomfortable in \"Carousel\" - that she could tell her daughter, yes, it's possible for someone to hit you and it no"}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 28, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Todd Purdum, who you might be familiar with as a political reporter. He's a contributing editor to Vanity Fair, a senior writer for Politico, former New York Times reporter. But he also writes about culture. And his new book is about the collaboration between Rodgers and Hammerstein. It's called \"Something Wonderful.\" We've been talking about Rodgers and Hammerstein's hit shows. They did have a few flops, including \"Allegro\" and a show called \"Pipe Dream\" that was based on John Steinbeck's \"Cannery Row.\" So this show - it's funny. Like, you write in your book that they turned down two opportunities for other shows...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's very uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable in the original play, \"Liliom.\" And it's uncomfortable in \"Carousel\" - that she could tell her daughter, yes, it's possible for someone to hit you and it no"}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 29, "text": "...To do \"Pipe Dream,\" which ended up being a huge flop. What did they turn down to produce this flop?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 30, "text": "Right. OK", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they turned down what eventually became \"My Fair Lady\" and what eventually became \"Fiddler On The Roof.\" So, you know, their batting average was not perfect."}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 31, "text": ". However - well, I'm going to play a great song from it in a moment. But first, this is an interesting story because it's kind of set in a house of prostitution. Two of the characters are - one character is a madam. One character is a young girl who becomes a prostitute. I've never seen the show. I've only heard the cast recording. But apparently, this was not necessarily the perfect material for Oscar Hammerstein, who had a reputation as being a little prudish in his writing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they turned down what eventually became \"My Fair Lady\" and what eventually became \"Fiddler On The Roof.\" So, you know, their batting average was not perfect."}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 32, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, and Rodgers, too, in his own way. And John Steinbeck said at one point to Oscar, you've turned my prostitute into a visiting nurse."}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 33, "text": "Yeah. And there's a song - there's two songs I really love from it. But this one is called \"Everybody Has A Home But Me (ph).\" And in the original cast recording, it's sung by Judy Tyler, who'd played Princess Summerfall Winterspring on \"Howdy Doody.\" And I have to say, I was just listening back to the original cast recording last night. Her singing, with all due respect, isn't good on it, and she doesn't put across the song. Her pitch is kind of wavery. It's just not - you'd never know what a great song it is, in my opinion", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And the problem was that Rodgers and Hammerstein couldn't really quite bring themselves to make it clear that this was all happening in a whorehouse. They kind of cleaned it up, and it seemed a little"}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And the problem was that Rodgers and Hammerstein couldn't really quite bring themselves to make it clear that this was all happening in a whorehouse. They kind of cleaned it up, and it seemed a little"}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 35, "text": "However, when Encores did a revival of it just a few years ago, Laura Osnes sang this song. And she was recently in the revival of Rodgers and Hammerstein's \"Cinderella.\" She's got a beautiful voice, so let's hear her singing \"Everybody's Got A Home But Me.\" Will you set the scene for us about where this song fits into the show?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, and she's too brassy for the character. The character is supposed to have a vulnerability underneath. And I think that she sounds a little bit too much like, you know, a belter. And that diminis"}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 36, "text": "OK. Here's Laura Osnes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this young prostitute has just arrived in Monterey from San Francisco on a bumpy overnight bus ride. She's feeling pretty bedraggled. And she's trying to explain how she wound up where she is - "}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 37, "text": "That was Laura Osnes from the recent Encores revival of the Rodgers and Hammerstein flop", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I rode by a house with the windows lighted up, looking pretty as a Christmas tree. And I said to myself as I rode by myself, everybody's got a home but me. I rode by a house where the moon w"}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 38, "text": "\"Pipe Dream.\" So do you love that song too, Todd?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I rode by a house with the windows lighted up, looking pretty as a Christmas tree. And I said to myself as I rode by myself, everybody's got a home but me. I rode by a house where the moon w"}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 39, "text": "Yeah. So how did they handle having such a big flop in which they lost their complete investment?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. When I first heard that song - I had never really known the score of \"Pipe Dream\" until I started to work on this book - I was overwhelmed with the beauty of the song. And I asked Ted Chapin, the"}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 40, "text": "I keep finding myself asking you more questions about Hammerstein than Rodgers. And I don't know whether that's because he was the writer, so there are kind of literal things to talk about, whereas music is more abstract, or whether he was the more visible personality than Rodgers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. For the first and only time, they invested their own money in the show, and they lost everything. They went on. The problem by the 19 - mid-1950s when \"Pipe Dream\" premiered was that they were so"}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 41, "text": "What was the relationship like - the friendship between Rodgers and Hammerstein?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So, you know, there are a lot of Hammerstein's lyrics quoted in the book. We don't have any musical notations quoting Rodgers' music. And I try to explain in certain places how his music did what it"}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 42, "text": "Do you think one of the reasons why each didn't know if they were liked by the other was that they worked long distance - with Hammerstein in Pennsylvania and Rodgers in New York? They weren't in the same room composing. They weren't even in the same state. So they didn't have that kind of direct partnership where, you know, every day or every week they're together in the same room working something out together - collaborating in real time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the thing that was most interest to me in doing the research for the book was to come to realize how they had tremendous professional respect for each other. They had terrific artistic collabo"}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 43, "text": "My guest is Todd Purdum. His new book about Rodgers and Hammerstein is called \"Something Wonderful.\" We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, no. It definitely wasn't the cinematic ideal of, you know, sitting around the piano and cranking something out together, you know. But I think part of the reason they worked long distance is bec"}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 44, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Todd Purdum. His new book \"Something Wonderful\" is about the collaboration between Richard Rodgers and Oscar Hammerstein. They had a 50-50 business relationship, and they formed a corporation under the advice from their manager or accountant. Can you tell us about their business partnership?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, no. It definitely wasn't the cinematic ideal of, you know, sitting around the piano and cranking something out together, you know. But I think part of the reason they worked long distance is bec"}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 45, "text": "So they were very savvy about that. But they - also people who they worked with weren't so happy with how they handled the business end. They kind of diminished other people's roles. Can you talk a little bit about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the important thing they decided to do from the very beginning was, whenever they could, to own their own work and to own it, in so far as they could, outright. Both had been in the theater for "}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 46, "text": "So I know you mostly as a political reporter from The New York Times in the past, from Vanity Fair, now Politico. So what are you doing writing a Rodgers and Hammerstein book?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "On the one hand, they were very loyal to the creative team that they worked with. They worked over and over again with the same orchestrator, the same vocal arranger, the same scenic designer. But man"}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 47, "text": "Todd Purdum, it's been great to talk with you again. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, these are the songs I grew up with, the songs my parents played on a record player. My brothers and sisters - my brother and sister and I all grew up listening to this music. It's really been th"}
{"id": "614469172", "date": "2018-05-28", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 48, "text": "Todd Purdum's new book about Rodgers and Hammerstein is called \"Something Wonderful.\" We'll close with the song \"Something Wonderful,\" sung by Ruthie Anne Miles from the 2015 Lincoln Center revival of the \"King And I.\" But first, let me tell you about tomorrow's show. My guest will be David Sedaris. He'll read from his new collection of personal essays called \"Calypso.\" And we'll talk about a lot of things, including life at age 61, the reasons he and his longtime boyfriend are monogamous but have not gotten married in spite of marriage equality and how he tries to harness his OCD in creative and productive ways. I hope you'll join us. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our associate producer for digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks so much for having me, Terry."}
{"id": "616097258", "date": "2018-06-01", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta's 'Mrs. Fletcher' Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 0, "text": "Tom Perrotta, welcome back to FRESH AIR. I want to ask you to start by reading from the very beginning of \"Mrs. Fletcher.\"", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. Our guest Tom Perrotta is the author of the novels \"Election\" and \"Little Children,\" which were both adapted into films. His novel \"The Leftover"}
{"id": "616097258", "date": "2018-06-01", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta's 'Mrs. Fletcher' Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 1, "text": "That's Tom Perrotta reading from his new novel, \"Mrs. Fletcher.\" So I love that you have these two parallel transitions - mother's transition - the single mother's transition when her son is leaving for college and his transition when he is the one who's leaving. And there's so many points in this book where I think he's being so oblivious to her needs. And I thought back to", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. (Reading) It was a long drive. And Eve cried most of the way home because the big day hadn't gone the way she'd hoped - not that big days ever did. Birthdays, holidays, weddings, graduations, fune"}
{"id": "616097258", "date": "2018-06-01", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta's 'Mrs. Fletcher' Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 2, "text": "myself when I left for college. I wasn't thinking about my parents' needs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. (Reading) It was a long drive. And Eve cried most of the way home because the big day hadn't gone the way she'd hoped - not that big days ever did. Birthdays, holidays, weddings, graduations, fune"}
{"id": "616097258", "date": "2018-06-01", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta's 'Mrs. Fletcher' Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 3, "text": "I didn't ask them, how do you feel now that I'm leaving home? It never would have occurred to me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "616097258", "date": "2018-06-01", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta's 'Mrs. Fletcher' Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 4, "text": "Exactly. And that's part of the point of your book - the mother's story is not set. Like, she's questioning who she is. She's questioning her sexual orientation. She's questioning what kind of life she wants to have, how she should shake up her life. She goes back to community college and takes a course on, basically, like, sex and gender. So what got you thinking about these two parallel transitions - the mother's and the son's - and how you could kind of join them together?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, you think - you assume they're all right. Their stories are set, and you're the one who's on the adventure."}
{"id": "616097258", "date": "2018-06-01", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta's 'Mrs. Fletcher' Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 5, "text": "Well, another thing that really sets off the story - it's on that day that she's about to drive him to college for his first day there. The girlfriend who her son has broken up with comes over for a visit. So the mother, Eve, goes out to get gas before driving him to college. When she returns, she hears that they're engaged in a sexual act. And he's giving her - her son is giving his girlfriend - really, his ex-girlfriend - these crude sexual commands about what to do to him, calling her the B-word. And Eve is just, like, appalled. Like, she's, you know, an enlightened woman. Like, she hates this language. She hates everything it stands for. And she doesn't know how to have that conversation with him and certainly doesn't want to have it with him on the day that they're parting, that he's going to college. But she wants him to begin college with the understanding that there's a difference between sexual relationships in real life and the soulless encounter he presumably watches on the Internet. So what made you think about that? Was that - does that come out of your life, too, of wanting to make sure that your children weren't learning crude, condescending ways of speaking to their boyfriend or girlfriend, from - either learning it from friends, from television, from porn, whatever?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the first part of it is I think that I've been kind of tracking my own life in my fiction. So when my kids were little and on the playground, I wrote \"Little Children\" based on those experiences"}
{"id": "616097258", "date": "2018-06-01", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta's 'Mrs. Fletcher' Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 6, "text": "So, you know, she's assuming her son watches porn. And then once he's out of the house, she starts watching a lot of porn. And would you describe the kind of porn she's especially interested in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it - I just think it's a really interesting and peculiar moment in American culture because on the one hand, there is this kind of crudeness in the way that we talk. And on the other hand, there"}
{"id": "616097258", "date": "2018-06-01", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta's 'Mrs. Fletcher' Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 7, "text": "And she's surprised to find herself watching lesbian porn.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, she receives an anonymous text that applies a certain label to her, which you and I have agreed to say - she's a sexy mom, a mom who is sexually desirable. People will know the acronym. An"}
{"id": "616097258", "date": "2018-06-01", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta's 'Mrs. Fletcher' Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 8, "text": "In the sexy mother category of lesbian porn", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. You know, she samples the menu, which is vast. And at a certain point, she settles on this lesbian porn as - you know, she's never thought of herself in this way. But this porn turns her on. And "}
{"id": "616097258", "date": "2018-06-01", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta's 'Mrs. Fletcher' Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 9, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. You know, she samples the menu, which is vast. And at a certain point, she settles on this lesbian porn as - you know, she's never thought of herself in this way. But this porn turns her on. And "}
{"id": "616097258", "date": "2018-06-01", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta's 'Mrs. Fletcher' Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 10, "text": "...You describe it as often beginning with a reluctant woman grumpily washing dishes or mopping the floor, when the doorbell rings. And then a more confident woman arrives with a bottle of wine and a bit of exposed cleavage, and then the action begins. Did you watch a lot of this before writing the novel?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "616097258", "date": "2018-06-01", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta's 'Mrs. Fletcher' Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 11, "text": "And then, in contrasting that with her son - with Eve's son - he grows up in a boy culture where date rape doesn't seem like it's necessarily wrong to the boys. And if you're a guy who tries to intervene and stop date sexual harassment or date rape, you're going to be bullied for it. And it makes it very confusing for the boys, I think. And I'd like to know what you were thinking about when you were writing this character who is kind of subscribing to that kind of behavior and language and not really understanding what's wrong with it, even though he grows up in a family that wouldn't tolerate that kind of behavior.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I watched enough to write the novel. Yeah, I did. And it was really interesting because, you know, if you - I mean, people have different responses to porn, obviously. And some of it is, you know, dis"}
{"id": "616097258", "date": "2018-06-01", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta's 'Mrs. Fletcher' Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 12, "text": "When were you in college, by the way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, and he would say that it was wrong if you asked him about it. And I do think that I was really interested in the fact that, you know, we talk way more about consent than we did when I was in co"}
{"id": "616097258", "date": "2018-06-01", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta's 'Mrs. Fletcher' Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 13, "text": "Let's take a short break here. And then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Tom Perrotta. His new novel is called \"Mrs. Fletcher.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I graduated in 1983. And, you know, I think the - a whole sort of body of knowledge of, you know, or just even the category of sexual harassment didn't fully exist. Like, I think I certainly knew stud"}
{"id": "616097258", "date": "2018-06-01", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta's 'Mrs. Fletcher' Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is writer Tom Perrotta. His new novel is called \"Mrs. Fletcher.\" He also wrote the novels \"Election\" and \"Little Children,\" which were made into films, and the novel \"The Leftovers,\" which was adapted into the HBO series of the same name. The son in this novel - the boy who is going to college and is in college for a good deal of the book - he's oblivious to girls as equals, to girls as, like, full human beings, to girls as sexual partners, as opposed to truly, like, sexual objects or appliances. And he just - really, he's oblivious.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I graduated in 1983. And, you know, I think the - a whole sort of body of knowledge of, you know, or just even the category of sexual harassment didn't fully exist. Like, I think I certainly knew stud"}
{"id": "616097258", "date": "2018-06-01", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta's 'Mrs. Fletcher' Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 15, "text": "Everyone in your book is having some kind of sexual or sexual identity or gender identity crisis. And you think that's one of the things that defines our time now, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, and I, you know, it - when you read stories about sexual assault on campus, and frat parties and every - you just sort of - it does seem that there's some kind of stubborn culture of male entitl"}
{"id": "616097258", "date": "2018-06-01", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta's 'Mrs. Fletcher' Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 16, "text": "So the mother, for instance - she's taking a course on gender and society for - at a community college which has a lot of, you know, like, adult students and students who are, like, working. So the students are assigned to write, quote, \"autobiographically and analytically about their own problematic experiences on the gender spectrum with special emphasis on the social construction of identity, the persistence of sexism in a post-feminist culture and the subversion of heteronormative discourse by LGBTQIA voices.\" That's not high academic language that I just read, but it's certainly not street language, either. It's language that comes from - I think it's fair to say it comes from academia. Would you say that's true?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And I was writing the book at that moment when, you know, what had been a kind of fairly rarified academic discussion of gender fluidity suddenly really entered the mainstream culture. And, you "}
{"id": "616097258", "date": "2018-06-01", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta's 'Mrs. Fletcher' Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 17, "text": "So what do you think about when you hear, like, the language to describe sexual identity, orientation, gender constructs? Do you hear that language that originates in academia and is being used to describe, really, like, personal, intimate, volatile subjects?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. And..."}
{"id": "616097258", "date": "2018-06-01", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta's 'Mrs. Fletcher' Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 18, "text": "So did you come of age with feminism and with the gay rights movement?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. We're listening to Terry's interview recorded last July with Tom Perrotta. His novels \"Election\" and \"Little Children\" were adapted into films. "}
{"id": "616097258", "date": "2018-06-01", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta's 'Mrs. Fletcher' Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I went to college in 1979 from a working-class high school. And so I really did have to have my consciousness raised. I came feeling probably the way my parents had. I would say, like, oh, there we"}
{"id": "616097258", "date": "2018-06-01", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta's 'Mrs. Fletcher' Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 20, "text": "Another thing that I think is explored in your novel is the difference between the sex people are attracted to when watching pornography and what they want or feel comfortable with in real life. And for some people, that's the same, even though it might be hard to get in real life what you've watched on porn. But for other people, it's really different. You can be turned on by something in porn and not feel at all comfortable with that in real life. Is that something you wanted to explore in the book?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I really was just - I had no answer for that. Why do I care? Because it made me feel superior, I guess. And I think there's a line in the book where Margo says, you know, feeling superior is its own r"}
{"id": "616097258", "date": "2018-06-01", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta's 'Mrs. Fletcher' Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 21, "text": "So the mother, Eve, wanting some kind of adventure in her life with the new freedom that she has - like, she misses her son. She's alone. So she's both lonely, but she also senses she has this freedom. And she wants to use it. And one of the ways she uses it, as we've discussed, is, like, watching pornography. But when she goes out to dinner with a younger woman who works on her staff at the senior citizens center, she makes a pass at her, which is rejected. And this is the first time she's ever even thought of the possibility of having a relationship with a woman. And when she's rejected, it's kind of devastating. It's like, OK, I tried freedom. Like, what did I think I was doing? Like, apparently, I can't do that. Apparently, I've made a terrible mistake. Now I'm just really embarrassed. It's inappropriate, too, she thinks as, like, the boss to have made a pass at someone who works for her. And she says, like, that's sexual harassment. Like, why did I do that? And she's just heartbroken and disappointed in herself and also inhibited by the response that she's gotten. And I thought it was interesting for you as a male writer to try to really get deep into this woman's head while trying out for the first time a lesbian relationship.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "than I thought. Or, you know, I find that arousing or whatever. So that was definitely a part of porn that's really interesting 'cause I think that most of us - we don't know what other people do. And"}
{"id": "616097258", "date": "2018-06-01", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta's 'Mrs. Fletcher' Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 22, "text": "And are you saying, too, that we sometimes confuse freedom with violating our own principles?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And I think, you know, it really was coming from that sense that, once she starts looking at porn, certain things in real life look different to her. So she's watching all this porn where a conf"}
{"id": "616097258", "date": "2018-06-01", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta's 'Mrs. Fletcher' Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 23, "text": "Well, why don't we take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more? If you're just joining us, my guest is Tom Perrotta. He wrote the novels \"Election\" and \"Little Children,\" which were adapted into films. His novel \"The Leftovers\" was adapted into the HBO series of the same name. His new novel is called \"Mrs. Fletcher.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's like the kid's leaving, where it's like before when your parents left. Like, you're suddenly free. There's nothing stopping you. And I do feel like Eve is in this moment when, you know,"}
{"id": "616097258", "date": "2018-06-01", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta's 'Mrs. Fletcher' Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is writer Tom Perrotta. His new novel is called \"Mrs. Fletcher.\" He also wrote the novels \"Little Children\" and \"Election,\" both of which were made into movies. His novel \"The Leftovers\" was adapted into the HBO series of the same name. The new book \"Mrs. Fletcher\" revolves around two main characters - a divorced mother whose son is leaving home for college and during most of the book is gone at college and the son and the transition he's making in his life. They're both making transitions in terms of their sexuality, their understanding of sex and the future that they see for themselves. So I want to take a turn in the conversation to the senior citizen center that Eve runs. And she has to call people sometimes to say, your father is really misbehaving, you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's like the kid's leaving, where it's like before when your parents left. Like, you're suddenly free. There's nothing stopping you. And I do feel like Eve is in this moment when, you know,"}
{"id": "616097258", "date": "2018-06-01", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta's 'Mrs. Fletcher' Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 25, "text": "She has to call one guy and say, like, you have to come get your father. He can't work here anymore. He's exposed himself and said - you know, said terrible things in the women's room. And the women - the seniors who were in the bathroom were on the verge of calling the police. So like, this has got to stop. Did you ever get one of those? I don't know if your parents have ever been in an assisted living facility or a nursing home or a senior center where you've ever gotten a call like that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "616097258", "date": "2018-06-01", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta's 'Mrs. Fletcher' Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 26, "text": "You write from multiple perspectives in the book. There are chapters from the perspective of the mother, chapters from the perspective of the son, chapters from the perspective of the woman who's the employee at the senior center and who the mother tries to have an affair with. Why did you want to write from multiple perspectives?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I have not had that happen personally. But when my kids were younger, I remember that, you know, the local paper had a story about the father of a woman who was - you know, who I'd see in th"}
{"id": "616097258", "date": "2018-06-01", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta's 'Mrs. Fletcher' Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 27, "text": "Since you write about turning points in people's lives, what was a big turning point in your life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the truth is, with this book, that I actually didn't. My original thought was that I was going to write a very short, tight book about a woman who goes into a kind of weird sexual fugue state wh"}
{"id": "616097258", "date": "2018-06-01", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta's 'Mrs. Fletcher' Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 28, "text": "How did your parents and how did your old friends react to the changed version of you? Did your parents say, what happened to you? You're not our son anymore.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I do have to say that going to college was - going to college at Yale, specifically, after growing up where I did in New Jersey - at the time, I was really adamant with myself that I was not goi"}
{"id": "616097258", "date": "2018-06-01", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta's 'Mrs. Fletcher' Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 29, "text": "Well, Tom Perrotta, thanks so much for talking with us again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. You know, my parents were great about it, I think, especially my mom. She was the one who really encouraged my siblings and me to go to the best schools we possibly could. And I think she sort of "}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today we're going to remember Jill Ker Conway, who influenced many women as a feminist, memoirist, women's history scholar and the first woman president of Smith College, one of the largest women's colleges in the world. She served in that position from 1975 to 85. Conaway died June 1 at the age of 83. We'll hear excerpts of my three interviews with her recorded between 1989 and 1998. We talked about establishing her career at a time when many doors were closed to women, how she became a feminist, how she married historian John Conway in spite of the fact she had always thought marriage would be the wrong choice for her and how she later dealt with his depression and then his death. Our first interview was recorded in 1989 after the publication of her first memoir, which became a best-seller and a touchstone book for many women. Titled \"The Road To Coorain\" (ph), it covered her childhood growing up on a remote sheep farm, which her parents ran in the Australian outback where she was physically and intellectually cut off from the world. The book ends with her decision to leave Australia in 1960 when she was 25 to attend graduate school at Harvard, hoping to find more opportunities for women in the U.S. than she'd found in Australia.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 1, "text": "So you grew up in a very isolated setting.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 2, "text": "Oh, boy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Totally - our next-door neighbors were, oh, about 50 miles away on one side..."}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 3, "text": "Your first schooling was through a correspondence course.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And about 20 miles another and 10 or 12 in another direction."}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 4, "text": "I love what you say about studying alone in isolation, that you were introduced to study as a leisure time activity. It sounds like you never really grew to dislike education in the way that so many children who go to schools do.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it was - my mother thought I could do two years in one, and she told the correspondence school that, but they thought there were two children on the place, so they sent the first lesson of the fi"}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 5, "text": "Were you sure that you would go to college?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For me, it was sheer pleasure. I was doing hard, physical labor on the sheep station. And I worked at that four days a week, and on the fifth day, on Friday, I got to sit down and do my school. And it"}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 6, "text": "You went to the University of Sydney first, yes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was very clear in my family because my mother was such a feminist that I would. And interestingly, the stereotypes of our gender worked in my favor in my family because it was expected that my brot"}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 7, "text": "And then you thought about what to do next. You decided you didn't want to go to school in England because you'd feel like a colonial there. You applied to Harvard and started living in the United States. Did you find that there were more opportunities for women?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I did."}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 8, "text": "What set you in the direction of being a college administrator, first a vice president at the University of Toronto, then the first woman president at Smith?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, goodness, yes. Well, I arrived at the Harvard graduate school. I lived in the graduate residence where there were several hundred other women all getting Ph.D.s and all enormously bright and inter"}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 9, "text": "The interview with Jill Ker Conway that we just heard was recorded in 1989 after the publication of her first memoir, \"The Road To Coorain.\" We're going to continue our remembrance of her with the interview we recorded in 1994 after the publication of her second memoir, \"True North,\" about setting out for Harvard alone, leaving behind her suffocating family and a culture hostile to aspiring women. For the first time, she found friends she could talk to without censoring her words or emotions. And she found her niche as a scholar of women's history. To her surprise, she fell in love with and married the historian John Conway, even though she'd always thought that marriage was not for her.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was born at the right time. I was - just finished my Ph.D. and beginning life as a professional historian just at the point when there was an enormous expansion of higher education in the Unit"}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 10, "text": "Early on into your marriage, you realized that you both had a lot of mood swings. You had always had depressions, and you realized he had very serious depressions, too. And you write about during some of those depressions he'd become almost unrecognizable, quote, \"as though a stranger had replaced my sensitive and loving husband with someone obsessed by demons of rage, tormented by suspicion.\" It must have been very unsettling, especially early on when you saw changes like that and wondered, you know, who he was becoming.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was such an anomalous person in my native Australia, and I think it would have been very difficult for me to fit into a conventional Australian marriage. John Conway was already a professional schol"}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 11, "text": "He had shock treatments during one bout of depression. What were the effects of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I had grown up with a neurotic family, and the thing that I think that gave me was the capacity to live through other people's moods and keep my own balance. I wouldn't recommend that "}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 12, "text": "Did he lose that memory permanently?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that is - as I say in the book, I think of electric shock therapy as the ultimate example of the engineering mentality and the sort of idea of the technological fix. It damages people's "}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 13, "text": "Like, years? Or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not permanently, but for a very substantial period of time."}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 14, "text": "We're listening to my 1994 interview with Jill Ker Conway, feminist, memoirist and the first woman president of Smith College. She died June 1. We'll hear more of that interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes, indeed."}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're continuing our remembrance of Jill Ker Conway, a feminist, memoirist and the first woman to serve as president of Smith College. She died June 1. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with her in 1994 after the publication of her second memoir, \"True North,\" about leaving Australia, where she grew up on a sheep ranch in the Outback, and moving to the U.S. to attend graduate school and launch her academic career. In 1964, she took a teaching position at the University of Toronto.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes, indeed."}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 16, "text": "When you were at the University of Toronto, you became something of an activist. You started organizing women on campus around women's issues such as equal pay. You went in and basically demanded to know why you weren't being given a promotion.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes, indeed."}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 17, "text": "Well, you went on to be appointed the first woman vice president at the University of Toronto, but after you got that position, you figured you were probably a disappointment to the feminist proponents of women's studies on campus. Why did you oppose women's studies programs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. That's right. You know, my experience fits exactly with the social science textbooks. Women are supposed to experience their first serious discrimination seven years after initial employment, and"}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 18, "text": "One of the things that a lot of professional women have had to deal with is balancing being a mother and being a professional. You weren't able to have children. You had hoped to have children, but a medical problem prevented that. And I wonder how you coped with that at different stages of your life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's a basic difference in strategy and what one thinks will be an effective mechanism for changing institutions. I thought that the most important thing was to transform the program of instruct"}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 19, "text": "Seems like so many things that happened to you in your life just led you to become more and more independent.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I found it a most absolutely devastating experience at the time. But, you know, another part of growing up in life is learning that not everything is always going to work out the way you hoped i"}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 20, "text": "Becoming independent, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Well, I suppose that's one way of..."}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 21, "text": ". I want to talk some more about how you planned a relationship of equality with your husband. I'm talking, for instance, about how you decided to divide up your money. I mean, you had an arrangement planned for that, at least early on in the marriage. You want to describe that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Yes."}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 22, "text": "Now, what was the logic in your relationship of keeping your income separate, as opposed to just putting it in one big joint account?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. You know, it's always interested me, so many families where there were young children, and a very highly educated wife would say to me, Janie can't afford to work. By the time we replaced her wor"}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 23, "text": "Did that continue to work for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We both felt very strongly that we should be able to plan anything that related to our professional lives, travel, even vacations, using our own resources. The fact that we were married and shared a c"}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 24, "text": "So you're still doing it that way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It always has."}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 25, "text": "Now, let me ask you this. When you had a best-seller and I imagine you made a, you know, fair amount of money, did you feel guilty keeping most of that in your account, not, you know, splitting it up or anything?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, indeed."}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 26, "text": "You know, something else that a lot of people find very intriguing, such as myself, is that you had this, like, 10-year plan...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not at all. I mean, it's always been part of our married life that what you earn outside what's required to maintain your joint household is yours."}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 27, "text": "...With your husband. Explain how that works.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 28, "text": "So does this mean you have to move?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we agreed very early on that every 10 years, the other person would get to say where you lived so that one person's career would always be primary, but we would take turns. We didn't want to hav"}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 29, "text": "I mean, can you just say, let's stay where we are this time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 30, "text": "Your husband's 18 years older, and I think that 18 years is a lot bigger a gap as you get older. And I'm wondering if that's been affecting the relationship at all or if that's something that's been weighing on you at all as you watch your husband get older.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If you're like what you're doing, you can stay where you are."}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 31, "text": "You must worry about losing him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If you live with somebody who's almost a generation older than you, it can work in two ways. That difference can be stressed, or it can be very easily bridged. My husband is chronologically 18 years o"}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 32, "text": "Jill Ker Conway recorded in 1994 after the publication of her second memoir, \"True North.\" The year after that interview was recorded, her husband, who was 18 years older than she was, died suddenly after suffering a stroke. Jill Ker Conway died June 1 at the age of 83. We'll continue our remembrance after a break. Also, our rock critic Ken Tucker will review the debut album by Lindsey Jordan, who's just one year out of high school. And Justin Chang will review the new sequel to the animated film \"The Incredibles.\" I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course I do. Everybody shouldn't be worried about that every day of their life, though. I mean, we all live poised on the brink of eternity."}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 33, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're remembering feminist, memoirist and the first woman president of Smith College, Jill Ker Conway. She died June 1 at the age of 83. Let's get back to the interview we recorded in 1994 after the publication of her second memoir, \"True North,\" about her life after leaving Australia, where she grew up on a sheep farm in the remote Outback, physically and intellectually cut off from the world. In 1960, at age 25, she moved to America to attend graduate school at Harvard. She wrote her thesis on women's memoirs and eventually wrote three memoirs of her own. It's a literary form she had strong opinions about. (SOUNDITE OF ARCHIVED BROADCAST)", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course I do. Everybody shouldn't be worried about that every day of their life, though. I mean, we all live poised on the brink of eternity."}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 34, "text": "I want to ask you about writing memoirs. You know, there's that whole idea that the writer is ultimately a traitor, that if you're writing personally, you're betraying the people who are closest to you because you're writing about them, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course I do. Everybody shouldn't be worried about that every day of their life, though. I mean, we all live poised on the brink of eternity."}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 35, "text": "And I'd love to know how far you feel comfortable going in your own memoirs when it comes to the lives of other people - your mother, who - you write about all the problems you've had and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 36, "text": "You must really believe in the memoir as an important form.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't think my mother is diminished by depicting the tragedy of her life because I start out in \"The Road From Coorain\" showing people this absolutely wonderfully powerful, rich joyful, creati"}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 37, "text": "Have there been any liabilities for you to become a more public person, which is what you've become since writing your memoirs? Because I think a lot of women and a lot of men in positions of authority, like you were as the head of a college, would try very hard to not let the people who they work with know a lot of personal things about them. For a lot of people, that's a strategy for maintaining a certain dignity and respect and power within an organization.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I do. I think that it is, in many ways, the form of narrative that is most gripping to contemporary readers. I think we read it the way 19th century people read Dickens or Hardy or somebody like "}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 38, "text": "That interview with Jill Ker Conway was recorded in 1994, after the publication of her second memoir, \"True North.\" We recorded our third and final interview in 1998, after the publication of her book about memoirs and autobiographies titled \"When Memory Speaks.\" I asked her a question she asks in that book, why do so many people write their life stories?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, if you tell the story of your life, it is no more fanciful and no more interesting to people than all the fantasies they have about you. So you might just as well have your say on the "}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 39, "text": "I think, you know, memoirs tend to have a certain coherence and shapeliness that real life lacks.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it is part of the development in our culture which says that there's really no central point of view from which to look at the world today so that everybody's story is relevant in some w"}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 40, "text": "Real life is usually, you know, very much a muddle...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 41, "text": "...Particularly, as you're going from one experience to another and, you know, it doesn't have that coherence that a narrative has in book form. And I'm wondering, you know, you've written two memoirs. Did your life take on a shapeliness in book form that it didn't seem to have in real life? What was the difference between your life in that shapely form of the book and your life as it felt like as you lived the parts that you later wrote about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 42, "text": "You would tell that story the same way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think the important thing to remember is that in shaping that narrative, drawing that out of the ebb and flow of very different kinds of experience, you choose the things that seem meaningful "}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 43, "text": "Now, how...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes, indeed."}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 44, "text": "Your husband passed away since we last...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, if I were in another life phase completely and struggling with other issues of meaning in my life, I might tell that one differently, too. But I'm not at the moment. I'm in the same life sta"}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 45, "text": "...Spoke. And I was very...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 46, "text": "...Sorry to read about that. You just mentioned that you would tell your mother's story differently now, having experienced losing your husband, as she had lost hers. What would be different in how you told her story now based on what you've experienced?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 47, "text": "Do you plan on writing another memoir?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, at the time, before I'd had this experience, I attributed her excessive and overwhelming lifetime of grief as incomprehensible to me. I couldn't understand how she did not have the ene"}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 48, "text": "I think, also, when we're in a certain - when we're in the stage of life that we're talking or writing about, we're much more defensive about the actions that we took.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One day, I will. But you have to be in another stage of life from the one you're writing about in order to know what's significant. You know, we fuss a lot about experiences, which, at the time, seem "}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 49, "text": "...Much more involved in justifying what we've done.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 50, "text": "Yes, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. I mean, that's why the memoirs of statesmen written right after they lose office are so terrible because..."}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 51, "text": "Well, Jill Ker Conway, thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. I mean, that's why the memoirs of statesmen written right after they lose office are so terrible because..."}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 52, "text": "Jill Ker Conway, recorded in 1998 after the publication of her book about memoirs, called \"When Memory Speaks.\" In 2002, she wrote her third memoir, titled \"A Woman's Education,\" about serving as the first woman president of Smith College. She died June 1 at the age of 83. I'm grateful for the opportunities I had to speak with her.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a great pleasure, Terry. Thank you."}
{"id": "619953256", "date": "2018-06-14", "guest": "Jill Ker Conway", "title": "Remembering Jill Ker Conway, The First Female President Of Smith College", "question_index": 53, "text": "After a break, our rock critic Ken Tucker will review the debut album by Lindsey Jordan, who's just one year out of high school. She records under the name Snail Mail. This is FRESH AIR. [", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a great pleasure, Terry. Thank you."}
{"id": "620296790", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Christopher Rainey", "title": "A Filmmaker's 'Quest' For A Quiet Family Portrait Is Pierced By Unforeseen Trauma", "question_index": 0, "text": "Quest, Jonathan Olshefski - welcome to FRESH AIR. It's great to have you both here. Jonathan, I want to start with you. You met the Raineys through one of your students, who is Quest's brother. Do I have that right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As himself) When I seen my child bleeding from her face screaming, Daddy, I'm sorry for getting shot - what do you say to that? It's crazy. I hear these shots every day. Every day I go out there just"}
{"id": "620296790", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Christopher Rainey", "title": "A Filmmaker's 'Quest' For A Quiet Family Portrait Is Pierced By Unforeseen Trauma", "question_index": 1, "text": "So what was it about the Raineys that made you think that they were worthy of a film and that the film would be worthy of following them around for nearly 10 years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct."}
{"id": "620296790", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Christopher Rainey", "title": "A Filmmaker's 'Quest' For A Quiet Family Portrait Is Pierced By Unforeseen Trauma", "question_index": 2, "text": "So, Quest, I want you to describe your neighborhood in North Philadelphia.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it was a slow, incremental, you know, process. Quest - he'd invited me to come to the studio to take some pictures to promote, you know, their artists. And, you know, when I showed up ju"}
{"id": "620296790", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Christopher Rainey", "title": "A Filmmaker's 'Quest' For A Quiet Family Portrait Is Pierced By Unforeseen Trauma", "question_index": 3, "text": "And I'll say North Philadelphia also, from the outside, has a reputation for being, like, a lot of violence...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My neighborhood in North Philadelphia is very, very beautiful. It's quaint, and it's old. Like, all the buildings in North Philadelphia are, like, from the 1800s, even the building I live in. It was b"}
{"id": "620296790", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Christopher Rainey", "title": "A Filmmaker's 'Quest' For A Quiet Family Portrait Is Pierced By Unforeseen Trauma", "question_index": 4, "text": "...Dangerous...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "620296790", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Christopher Rainey", "title": "A Filmmaker's 'Quest' For A Quiet Family Portrait Is Pierced By Unforeseen Trauma", "question_index": 5, "text": "So, Quest, one of the things you're famous for in the neighborhood is that you have a recording studio in your basement. How did you end up starting a studio?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. That's the part that they always show. You know, I find it offensive. Every time I look on the news and turn the radio on or something - you know, when they say North Philadelphia, first thing "}
{"id": "620296790", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Christopher Rainey", "title": "A Filmmaker's 'Quest' For A Quiet Family Portrait Is Pierced By Unforeseen Trauma", "question_index": 6, "text": "In the film, you say that the rapper you worked with with the most promise - somebody named Price...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Honestly, they started closing down all the libraries, the swimming pools, everything in the neighborhood. And we started noticing the kids started hanging on the corner. We have children ourselves, y"}
{"id": "620296790", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Christopher Rainey", "title": "A Filmmaker's 'Quest' For A Quiet Family Portrait Is Pierced By Unforeseen Trauma", "question_index": 7, "text": "But he also has or had substance abuse problems.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "620296790", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Christopher Rainey", "title": "A Filmmaker's 'Quest' For A Quiet Family Portrait Is Pierced By Unforeseen Trauma", "question_index": 8, "text": "And so I want to play something you recorded with him. We asked you to bring something with you that you really liked, like a recording that you made. And so you brought \"Rainey Dayz.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "620296790", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Christopher Rainey", "title": "A Filmmaker's 'Quest' For A Quiet Family Portrait Is Pierced By Unforeseen Trauma", "question_index": 9, "text": "Introduce it for us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "620296790", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Christopher Rainey", "title": "A Filmmaker's 'Quest' For A Quiet Family Portrait Is Pierced By Unforeseen Trauma", "question_index": 10, "text": "And rainy is spelled like your last name, Rainey.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I made \"Rainey Dayz\" in 1998. And that song was made out of frustration - it was just an instrumental that I played on a piano - where my wife and I, we had an argument. She was still pregnant with ou"}
{"id": "620296790", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Christopher Rainey", "title": "A Filmmaker's 'Quest' For A Quiet Family Portrait Is Pierced By Unforeseen Trauma", "question_index": 11, "text": "OK. So this is \"Rainey Dayz\" with music by by my guest Quest, Christopher Rainey. And the lyric is written and performed by Price.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes, I spelled it \"Rainey Dayz,\" like, because the Rainey was my name, and I was actually talking about myself experiencing rainy days. And I put a Z on the end of the days because - like, dazed "}
{"id": "620296790", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Christopher Rainey", "title": "A Filmmaker's 'Quest' For A Quiet Family Portrait Is Pierced By Unforeseen Trauma", "question_index": 12, "text": "So that's \"Rainey Dayz\" with music by my guest Quest - Christopher Rainey - who's the subject, along with his wife and daughter, of the new documentary \"Quest,\" which was made by Jonathan Olshefski, who is also with us. So, Quest, you worked with Price, who we just heard doing the rap on that. You worked with him a lot. You made, like, you say hundreds of records together.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) Kev (ph) Price. Rainey dayz, Everquest. It's Rainey dayz. It's Rainey dayz. Fairmount, it's Rainey dayz. It's Rainey dayz. North Philly, it's Rainey dayz. It's like we dead when we broke, an"}
{"id": "620296790", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Christopher Rainey", "title": "A Filmmaker's 'Quest' For A Quiet Family Portrait Is Pierced By Unforeseen Trauma", "question_index": 13, "text": "In the documentary about you, there's a scene in which you're having an argument. He wants another copy of a record that you made together. You've already given him five. He wants it again because he keeps losing it. And you're telling him that he's irresponsible. And he's telling you that he can't help it because he's an addict. So I want to play that scene from the film. And Price speaks first.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes."}
{"id": "620296790", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Christopher Rainey", "title": "A Filmmaker's 'Quest' For A Quiet Family Portrait Is Pierced By Unforeseen Trauma", "question_index": 14, "text": "OK. That was the rapper Price with my guest Quest - Christopher Rainey - who's one of the subjects of the new documentary \"Quest.\" So what's your relationship with Price now? Are you still working together?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As himself) I had an addiction. I wasn't the same way I was a couple months ago."}
{"id": "620296790", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Christopher Rainey", "title": "A Filmmaker's 'Quest' For A Quiet Family Portrait Is Pierced By Unforeseen Trauma", "question_index": 15, "text": "You mentioned that in the clip that we just heard. What was your issue?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, I just got off the phone with him before we got here. Yes, we are going to be doing something later on today, actually. We're going to go to a studio. Yeah, Price and I are - our relationshi"}
{"id": "620296790", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Christopher Rainey", "title": "A Filmmaker's 'Quest' For A Quiet Family Portrait Is Pierced By Unforeseen Trauma", "question_index": 16, "text": "So you have a daughter who is in the film. How old is she now?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. And we're listening to Terry's conversation with filmmaker Jonathan Olshefski and Christopher Rainey, one of the subjects of his film \"Quest,\" which will be broadcast Monday on the "}
{"id": "620296790", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Christopher Rainey", "title": "A Filmmaker's 'Quest' For A Quiet Family Portrait Is Pierced By Unforeseen Trauma", "question_index": 17, "text": "And she was around 8 when the film starts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "P.J. is my youngest daughter. She is 18."}
{"id": "620296790", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Christopher Rainey", "title": "A Filmmaker's 'Quest' For A Quiet Family Portrait Is Pierced By Unforeseen Trauma", "question_index": 18, "text": "So while the documentary is being made, your daughter Patricia, P.J., is shot in the eye in the afternoon in the neighborhood. Tell us what you know about what happened.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "About 7, yeah."}
{"id": "620296790", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Christopher Rainey", "title": "A Filmmaker's 'Quest' For A Quiet Family Portrait Is Pierced By Unforeseen Trauma", "question_index": 19, "text": "Do you know anything more about who shot her? Was anybody ever identified?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what I do know is that my daughter got shot by a stray bullet by, you know, guys arguing. From what I'm - from what the neighbor was telling us, they were arguing over a four-wheeler that somebo"}
{"id": "620296790", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Christopher Rainey", "title": "A Filmmaker's 'Quest' For A Quiet Family Portrait Is Pierced By Unforeseen Trauma", "question_index": 20, "text": "You know, I know that there are some neighborhoods that have kind of, like, no snitching...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the neighborhood speaks. So the neighborhood said, you know, OK, we think this person did it. We think that person did it. But, you know, as far as detectives and things like that, no one ever f"}
{"id": "620296790", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Christopher Rainey", "title": "A Filmmaker's 'Quest' For A Quiet Family Portrait Is Pierced By Unforeseen Trauma", "question_index": 21, "text": "...Kind of - I shouldn't say policy, but like a no-snitching understanding. Like, you don't name names when it comes to somebody who did something, even if you know who that person is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "620296790", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Christopher Rainey", "title": "A Filmmaker's 'Quest' For A Quiet Family Portrait Is Pierced By Unforeseen Trauma", "question_index": 22, "text": "Did that happen with your daughter's shooting, do you think?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "620296790", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Christopher Rainey", "title": "A Filmmaker's 'Quest' For A Quiet Family Portrait Is Pierced By Unforeseen Trauma", "question_index": 23, "text": "How did you deal with fear that your daughter could be hurt again? And I know you were very worried about protecting her other eye. So were you afraid to have her out on the street playing basketball, walking with friends, doing anything? You can become very overprotective or very worried after something like that happens.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. See, I'm old school. I'm going to be honest with you. Like, I'm really old school. Like, the reason why I started letting these kids come because I feel as though I was the one that understood the"}
{"id": "620296790", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Christopher Rainey", "title": "A Filmmaker's 'Quest' For A Quiet Family Portrait Is Pierced By Unforeseen Trauma", "question_index": 24, "text": "You could have lost her. Like you say in the film, if she had been, like, an inch away from where she was.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. We kind of did start becoming overprotective, but she kind of put a stop to that herself. You know, P.J. - like, she's a go-getter. She's not going to let anything hold her back. So when we beca"}
{"id": "620296790", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Christopher Rainey", "title": "A Filmmaker's 'Quest' For A Quiet Family Portrait Is Pierced By Unforeseen Trauma", "question_index": 25, "text": "What was the relationship between you about whether, like, what and if to record during that period? Because when something tragic like that happens, that can be pretty private. You don't necessarily want to be on camera when you're in that state of upset.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One step. Yeah, it was a .40 caliber that hit her in the eye. And that's fairly a large bullet. And that definitely - that would've killed anybody if it would've hit them. It's like, you know, God's i"}
{"id": "620296790", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Christopher Rainey", "title": "A Filmmaker's 'Quest' For A Quiet Family Portrait Is Pierced By Unforeseen Trauma", "question_index": 26, "text": "Did you ask her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, I remember when I first heard that P.J. had gotten shot - and I was just devastated. I was actually in an airport in South Dakota, and my wife called me. And when I got back to Philade"}
{"id": "620296790", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Christopher Rainey", "title": "A Filmmaker's 'Quest' For A Quiet Family Portrait Is Pierced By Unforeseen Trauma", "question_index": 27, "text": "Did your whole understanding of what the film was going to be and what the shape of it was going to be change after the shooting?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. We're listening to Terry's interview recorded in September with Christopher Rainey, also known as Quest, and Jonathan Olshefski. Quest are his f"}
{"id": "620296790", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Christopher Rainey", "title": "A Filmmaker's 'Quest' For A Quiet Family Portrait Is Pierced By Unforeseen Trauma", "question_index": 28, "text": "Quest, tell us more about why you asked Jonathan to turn on the camera while you were in the hospital.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I was trying to make a quiet portrait of a family. So it was about daily routines and, you know, breakfast and going to school and, you know, the studio and the paper route. But just then all of"}
{"id": "620296790", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Christopher Rainey", "title": "A Filmmaker's 'Quest' For A Quiet Family Portrait Is Pierced By Unforeseen Trauma", "question_index": 29, "text": "I'm going to ask you to talk about that dynamic a little bit more, about how, like, Jonathan's white.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I really felt that - like I said, my wife and I really talked about P.J.'s recovery, like, instantly. That was the first thing that came up, like, when we went home. And we couldn't think of a better "}
{"id": "620296790", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Christopher Rainey", "title": "A Filmmaker's 'Quest' For A Quiet Family Portrait Is Pierced By Unforeseen Trauma", "question_index": 30, "text": "So he has access to, like, the white world. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, it's, like..."}
{"id": "620296790", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Christopher Rainey", "title": "A Filmmaker's 'Quest' For A Quiet Family Portrait Is Pierced By Unforeseen Trauma", "question_index": 31, "text": "...In general.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "620296790", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Christopher Rainey", "title": "A Filmmaker's 'Quest' For A Quiet Family Portrait Is Pierced By Unforeseen Trauma", "question_index": 32, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah..."}
{"id": "620296790", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Christopher Rainey", "title": "A Filmmaker's 'Quest' For A Quiet Family Portrait Is Pierced By Unforeseen Trauma", "question_index": 33, "text": "Like, yeah. Like what?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So there's a lot of stuff he can do that we can't, you know, yeah."}
{"id": "620296790", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Christopher Rainey", "title": "A Filmmaker's 'Quest' For A Quiet Family Portrait Is Pierced By Unforeseen Trauma", "question_index": 34, "text": "OK. So another thing I wanted to bring up that's shown in the movie is that your daughter P.J. - and this is, like, some time after she's shot. She has her new eye, which moves with the other eye, looks really good. And she's back doing the things that she does and everything. But she tells you that she's gay, and that seems like it's a big surprise to you and your wife and that you're concerned. So I'm wondering how that's working out for you as the parents now, if you're comfortable with that now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like, he could communicate with people that we can't - like, people will take him more serious on a certain level when he talks to these people, you know, like, about the business. Like, they might co"}
{"id": "620296790", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Christopher Rainey", "title": "A Filmmaker's 'Quest' For A Quiet Family Portrait Is Pierced By Unforeseen Trauma", "question_index": 35, "text": "That's a great attitude. Jonathan, how many years did you shoot footage for this film?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like, you know? But I didn't say it. I just kind of smiled. But my wife already knew it and stuff. You know, so - and honestly speaking, P.J. is now - she is my thesaurus on things like that, like, be"}
{"id": "620296790", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Christopher Rainey", "title": "A Filmmaker's 'Quest' For A Quiet Family Portrait Is Pierced By Unforeseen Trauma", "question_index": 36, "text": "Because?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So 2006 was the - you know, started, you know, the photo project and then in 2007, started shooting video. So it's, like, 10 years, you know, and probably about 400 hours of footage by the end of it. "}
{"id": "620296790", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Christopher Rainey", "title": "A Filmmaker's 'Quest' For A Quiet Family Portrait Is Pierced By Unforeseen Trauma", "question_index": 37, "text": "All right. I want to thank you both so much for talking with us. And good luck with the film.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because I think how polarized we are as a country. \"Quest\" is an invitation to connect - for anybody to see themselves in the Rainey family, to connect to the North Philadelphia community. And I think"}
{"id": "620324393", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "David Douglas Duncan", "title": "Remembering War Photographer David Douglas Duncan", "question_index": 0, "text": "Is there a photo from your Korean War series that still has the most emotional impact on you when you look at it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I went to Korea, it was five years after the end of World War II. And I had been a Marine combat photographer in - you know, the fight up to the islands - up to Tokyo, up to Tokyo Bay, the surren"}
{"id": "620324393", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "David Douglas Duncan", "title": "Remembering War Photographer David Douglas Duncan", "question_index": 1, "text": "I want to mention some of the photographs that I found just especially moving. One is a sequence of portraits of a Marine who - in the the first portrait, there's a...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, once, I asked Pablo Picasso - whom I'd photographed many, many times and made several books on him - what was his favorite painting. And he shoved his hand up in front of my eyes and says, w"}
{"id": "620324393", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "David Douglas Duncan", "title": "Remembering War Photographer David Douglas Duncan", "question_index": 2, "text": "Yeah, actually that's it", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"A Letter To Hayworth\" - he's in the foreground - an old Marine in the background talking him out of it - out of his crack up. There are four shots on the double-page."}
{"id": "620324393", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "David Douglas Duncan", "title": "Remembering War Photographer David Douglas Duncan", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"A Letter To Hayworth\" - he's in the foreground - an old Marine in the background talking him out of it - out of his crack up. There are four shots on the double-page."}
{"id": "620324393", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "David Douglas Duncan", "title": "Remembering War Photographer David Douglas Duncan", "question_index": 4, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "620324393", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "David Douglas Duncan", "title": "Remembering War Photographer David Douglas Duncan", "question_index": 5, "text": "Another photograph I want to ask you about - this is toward the end of the book in a sequence of photographs of the Marines on retreat. There's a soldier...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, if you look at it very closely, you'll see something quite surprising that the only movement in that picture is in the change of expression in Leonard Hayworth's face, the guy in front of me - t"}
{"id": "620324393", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "David Douglas Duncan", "title": "Remembering War Photographer David Douglas Duncan", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yeah. Well, in the photograph I'm thinking of, there's a soldier sitting on the hood of a jeep. There's a rifle on his lap. And the expression on his face, I think, will always stay with me. It looks like - well, it kind of looks like he looked into hell, and it left him numb.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no. Wait a minute, wait a minute - they didn't retreat. They're coming down from the reservoir. That's on the border of Manchuria and North Korea. And when you retreat, you retreat from an enemy f"}
{"id": "620324393", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "David Douglas Duncan", "title": "Remembering War Photographer David Douglas Duncan", "question_index": 7, "text": "How cold was it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was wounded and frozen and riding because only way to get him out. If you come out ambulatory, you've tied up a couple of guys. But at least there was still a jeep running, so he got on the hood of"}
{"id": "620324393", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "David Douglas Duncan", "title": "Remembering War Photographer David Douglas Duncan", "question_index": 8, "text": "Do - have people ever told you that they recognized a husband or a boyfriend or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- you know, sometimes it comes back. I can't think about it because I'm - the guy is freezing below zero Fahrenheit. It's really strange. It comes back and grabs you by the throat. And you're - I'm si"}
{"id": "620324393", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "David Douglas Duncan", "title": "Remembering War Photographer David Douglas Duncan", "question_index": 9, "text": "But...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm still getting letters 40 years later from one of those freezing Marines. And everybody from Army, Navy, Air Force, other Marines - I don't know exactly who he was. I know where he was. I know the "}
{"id": "620324393", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "David Douglas Duncan", "title": "Remembering War Photographer David Douglas Duncan", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But let me make one point."}
{"id": "620324393", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "David Douglas Duncan", "title": "Remembering War Photographer David Douglas Duncan", "question_index": 11, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Except for the rare case where it doesn't seem to be injurious, I don't tell them. I let them think it's their husband or brother, father - father? No, could you imagine? That's 40 years ago."}
{"id": "620324393", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "David Douglas Duncan", "title": "Remembering War Photographer David Douglas Duncan", "question_index": 12, "text": "What are the secrets of shooting in combat without becoming a target yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In fact, I got a call from a lady. I live in the south of France. I got a call a couple of months ago at midnight. She didn't realize how late it was where I live. And she was identifying her father w"}
{"id": "620324393", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "David Douglas Duncan", "title": "Remembering War Photographer David Douglas Duncan", "question_index": 13, "text": "Do you see these photographs as anti-war photos?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you are a target of course. It's illogic (ph). You know, I'm just lucky. In fact, there's a shot there of Ike Fenton. Ike's a guy with a - someone said the thousand-yard stare looking over my my"}
{"id": "620324393", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "David Douglas Duncan", "title": "Remembering War Photographer David Douglas Duncan", "question_index": 14, "text": "Thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You better believe it. That's why I so object to a politician calling these guys boys. Can you imagine? Some boys."}
{"id": "620326043", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Remembering D.J. Fontana, The Drummer For Elvis Presley's Band", "question_index": 0, "text": "That has to be one of the famous - most famous drum rolls in history. Did you have that one planned? D.J.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You ain't nothing but a hound dog, crying all the time. You ain't nothing but a hound dog, crying all the time. Well, you ain't never caught a rabbit and you ain't no friend of mine. Well, t"}
{"id": "620326043", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Remembering D.J. Fontana, The Drummer For Elvis Presley's Band", "question_index": 1, "text": "I want to ask you about the Ed Sullivan appearance that you and Elvis Presley were on, the first - I guess it was a TV premier - national TV premiere of Elvis Presley. And we've all heard about how the camera people were told to just shoot him from the waist up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We didn't ever plan anything. We never knew what was going to happen from one second to the other. And we'd go in the studio, just kind of fiddle around and find things, you know. And that's just one "}
{"id": "620326043", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Remembering D.J. Fontana, The Drummer For Elvis Presley's Band", "question_index": 2, "text": "Well, what were you told behind the scenes about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They said that, but I didn't see any sense in it. I don't think anybody did."}
{"id": "620326043", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Remembering D.J. Fontana, The Drummer For Elvis Presley's Band", "question_index": 3, "text": "You were one of the first groups to perform in front of a lot of screaming people. I think you had a lot of screamers long before the Beatles did.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They said it was vulgar, his gyrations. But he really didn't do anything, not compared to what they're doing now. He was a saint, you know. But the press, you know, they'll write anything that people "}
{"id": "620326043", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Remembering D.J. Fontana, The Drummer For Elvis Presley's Band", "question_index": 4, "text": "How did that affect you as a drummer? You must have had to play really loud.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That was quite a few years back."}
{"id": "620326043", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Remembering D.J. Fontana, The Drummer For Elvis Presley's Band", "question_index": 5, "text": "Some of those swiveling hips were probably cues to the band", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not really. He always worked us tight. Everybody was right up against each other. It was hard to hear a lot of times. But I know one time we went to the Cotton Bowl in Dallas. There was about 45,0"}
{"id": "620326043", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Remembering D.J. Fontana, The Drummer For Elvis Presley's Band", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not really. He always worked us tight. Everybody was right up against each other. It was hard to hear a lot of times. But I know one time we went to the Cotton Bowl in Dallas. There was about 45,0"}
{"id": "620326043", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Remembering D.J. Fontana, The Drummer For Elvis Presley's Band", "question_index": 7, "text": "You appear in two of my personal favorite Elvis Presley moments. One is in \"Jailhouse Rock.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was cues. See, when I was 15 years old, I was working strip acts down in Shreveport. So I learned to follow these people. So when he done all his moves, I learn to follow him 'cause I did not know "}
{"id": "620326043", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Remembering D.J. Fontana, The Drummer For Elvis Presley's Band", "question_index": 8, "text": "It's a great movie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was a good movie."}
{"id": "620326043", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Remembering D.J. Fontana, The Drummer For Elvis Presley's Band", "question_index": 9, "text": "And also, you were in that terrific 1968 network special.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I enjoyed doing that movie."}
{"id": "620326043", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Remembering D.J. Fontana, The Drummer For Elvis Presley's Band", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yeah. He's wearing all leather and denim, as I remember.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Special with the black suit."}
{"id": "620326043", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Remembering D.J. Fontana, The Drummer For Elvis Presley's Band", "question_index": 11, "text": "The costume was hot or the studio was hot?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was hot."}
{"id": "620326043", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Remembering D.J. Fontana, The Drummer For Elvis Presley's Band", "question_index": 12, "text": "It was tight", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Costume - that suit looked like it weighed a hundred pounds. And it was black leather. I mean, he was..."}
{"id": "620326043", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Remembering D.J. Fontana, The Drummer For Elvis Presley's Band", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Costume - that suit looked like it weighed a hundred pounds. And it was black leather. I mean, he was..."}
{"id": "620326043", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Remembering D.J. Fontana, The Drummer For Elvis Presley's Band", "question_index": 14, "text": "What was exciting about that special, though, is that it was a period when you thought, well, maybe he'd lost it musically. Maybe he was just going to be doing bland pop songs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't see how he didn't pass out, really, I mean, of course, with the lights and everything making it hotter."}
{"id": "620326043", "date": "2018-06-15", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Remembering D.J. Fontana, The Drummer For Elvis Presley's Band", "question_index": 15, "text": "About how he'd - what kind of reaction he'd get? how he had a reaction over a year", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he was worried about it. He was really, really concerned."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest is songwriter, singer and guitarist John Prine. In a review of his new album, \"The Tree Of Forgiveness,\" our rock critic Ken Tucker said that Prine's knack for colloquial language and metrical precision has been an inspiration to many younger singer-songwriters. Prine released his first album in 1971 with several songs that remain staples of his repertoire, like \"Angel From Montgomery,\" \"Paradise,\" \"Sam Stone\" and \"Hello In There.\" Among the many people who have recorded his songs are Johnny Cash, Bonnie Raitt and Bette Midler. In 2016, he was honored by the writers' organization PEN for lyrics of literary excellence. Last year, Prine won the artist of the year award at the Americana Awards. It's kind of amazing that he's still performing. In 1996, he had neck surgery to remove a cancerous tumor. The surgery also removed parts of his neck, severed some nerves in his tongue and damaged several salivary glands. In 2013, he was operated on for lung cancer. He's made a remarkable comeback. \"Tree Of Forgiveness,\" his first album of new songs in 13 years, has gotten some great reviews, and he's been touring. Let's start with a track from the new album. This is \"Summer's End,\" co-written with Pat McLaughlin. Brandi Carlile sings backup vocals.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 1, "text": "That's John Prine, from his new album, \"The Tree of Forgiveness.\" John Prine, welcome to FRESH AIR. It is a pleasure to have you here. Is there a story behind that song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Summer's end's around the bend, just flying. The swimming suits are on the land, just drying. I'll meet you there, per our conversation. I hope I didn't ruin your whole vacation. Well, you n"}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 2, "text": "What about the melody?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the big story behind that particular song, \"Summer's End,\" first of all, it's my favorite track from \"The Tree Of Forgiveness.\" You know, it just came out so pretty. A good buddy of mine, Pat Mc"}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 3, "text": "The Elizabeth Cotten song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The melody is just another simple John Prine patented melody. I mean, all I'm trying to do is play \"Freight Train,\" I think, you know?"}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 4, "text": "Wow. That's pretty strange.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just think of - yeah, that's how I learned to finger pick - was I learned how to finger pick by playing - trying to pick like Elizabeth Cotten and Mississippi John Hurt - so much so that I used to p"}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 5, "text": "So can you do it? Do you ever have to look down at your fingers when you're playing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, you're telling me."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 6, "text": "Ha.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can't. My belly's too big."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 7, "text": "You've been through a lot in the past few years. You've had neck cancer and lung cancer. Can we talk about how you were able to get back into shape to be able to perform and tour? I mean, the neck surgery severed nerves in your tongue. It damaged salivary glands. Did you have to learn to sing or speak again?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can't see my hands. Good thing I practiced in the dark."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had to do some - they gave me a speech therapist that was part of the therapy when I was just getting over the initial surgery - the neck surgery. That was a pretty big surgery. It was my first real"}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 9, "text": "So you got a new voice, and you feel different about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I said if you leave me with something - if I can make a noise, I said, I'll come out with a voice on the other end, you know? And the surgeon told me my golf swing will improve after surgery. I said I"}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 10, "text": "That's really surprising, I think. Do you feel like your voice sounds more lived in than it did before? I've heard singers complain that they've been through so much, and you don't hear it in their voice - you know, that they feel you don't hear it, that their voice doesn't sound as troubled as they feel or as worn as they feel or as experienced as they feel.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It dropped down lower and feels friendlier to me. So I can actually sit in the studio and listen to my singing play back. Before, I'd run the other way."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 11, "text": "So, you know, in addition to the neck surgery that you had for cancer, a few years later, you had lung cancer. And you had an operation on one of your lungs. So what was it like to learn how to be able to get enough breath to support your singing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, with me, my early recordings - I had a difficult time listening back to them because I was so nervous. I was kind of thrown into - I didn't expect to do this for a living, being a recording arti"}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 12, "text": "I like that because it's tailored to who you are and what you do, as opposed to giving you, you know, just the standard exercises.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, luckily, I had a friend who was a trainer, you know? I mean, he's individually trained people for either weight loss and stuff like that. We were friends. We just like to get together and B.S., "}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 13, "text": "So one more thing about the surgeries. I know you knew Roger Ebert, and he gave a boost to your career really early on before anybody knew you. He gave you a great review when you were just performing in Chicago before you'd recorded. And I don't know if you remained close. But he had cancer, and he had jaw surgery that basically left him unable to speak. I was wondering if you've communicated with him at all about your surgery. I think he was still - he would've still been alive.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. I'm no good with that. If somebody tells me to work or exercise, I go the other way. I'll come up with an excuse."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 14, "text": "That's great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he - after Roger initially got, you know, sick, I was - I had played a show. And him and his wife came to it. And this was after my surgery. It was when I was out touring behind \"The Missing Yea"}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 15, "text": "This would have been about - what? - 1969?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I never had an empty seat after that. I was still - like I said, I was still making my living as a mailman. And I was singing after that three nights a week and two shows a night. And there was a "}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 16, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Late 1970."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 17, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is songwriter, singer and guitarist John Prine. He has a new album called \"The Tree of Forgiveness.\" We'll be back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, early '71 is when I got my record contract. I had a record come out by August of '71. Things happened really fast."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is songwriter, singer and guitarist John Prine. His new album is called \"The Tree Of Forgiveness.\" I want to play another track from your new album \"The Tree Of Forgiveness.\" And all the songs on this are co-written. This one was co-written with Phil Spector. You started the song with him in 1978. I think you finished it for the new album. So how did you and Phil Spector meet up? I mean, my initial reaction was, wow, that doesn't seem to - that seems like a really unusual musical fit because, you know, my first thought was, like, Phil Spector - girl groups, the Ronettes, Darlene Love. Then I was thinking, well, Phil Spector did produce music by John Lennon later on. And he produced a Leonard Cohen album. So what brought you together with him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, early '71 is when I got my record contract. I had a record come out by August of '71. Things happened really fast."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 19, "text": "So part of the lyric of \"God Only Knows\" is God only knows the price you pay for the ones you betray along the way. You didn't know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Robert Hilburn was the premiere music critic for the LA Times for about 35 years. And he was an early champion of my stuff. He was, like, out in the West Coast. That's how I kind of developed out ther"}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yeah. Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually it's if I should betray myself today, then God only knows the price you pay."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 21, "text": "So, OK, thanks for the correction. So when you were writing this - I don't know if that line was written when you were working with Spector, but you could not have known...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 22, "text": "Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, that's one of the one's I - that's one of the one's I wrote just a week before..."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 23, "text": "Yeah, because you could not have known he was going to commit murder and be in prison by the time you completed the song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I went in the studio."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 24, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, that's not one of my talents."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 25, "text": "What was your reaction having written, you know, a song and a half with him? What was your reaction when you found out about the murder?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can't tell the future."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 26, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, I was shocked but not shocked because I don't - I mean, I can't comment on whether I thought it was a - whether I thought it was first-degree murder or not, you know? But I do know he wa"}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 27, "text": "My guest is John Prine. His new album is called \"The Tree Of Forgiveness.\" After a break, we'll talk more and hear more music, and Maureen Corrigan will review a new novel about urban Indians by Native American writer Tommy Orange. I am Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR. And here's the song from John Prine's new album, the song he co-wrote with Phil Spector, called \"God Only Knows.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I didn't know Phil well enough to know what his true personality was. I'm not sure that people close to him knew that."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 28, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with songwriter and singer John Prine, whose best known songs include \"Angel From Montgomery,\" \"Sam Stone,\" \"Paradise\" and \"Hello In There.\" His new album \"The Tree Of Forgiveness\" is his first album of new songs in 13 years. So let's talk about your background. You grew up in Maywood, Ill. Was that like a small town outside of Chicago?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Da-da-dah-da-da. Dada-da-da-dah-de-dum (ph)..."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 29, "text": "So was your father from Paradise, west Ky.?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "background at all. You know, and I felt like I grew up in a good background where I had friends from all kind of places."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 30, "text": "Did anyone from your family work in the coal industry?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was actually born down the road in Mercer, Ky. But he ended up over in Paradise because his father was a carpenter. And he'd work - like, he'd stay three months in a town, rent a house. And when th"}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 31, "text": "So you have a pretty famous song called \"Paradise\" that's about Paradise, Ky., and how beautiful it is and how the main character in your song wants to go back there. But his father tells him that it's basically too late because it's been hauled away by the coal trains. Did you see that happen to Paradise?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, uh-uh. I mean, I had a few cousins that did, but most of them got out. Most of them went to Louisville, Dayton, Ohio, Detroit for working at auto factories or Chicago."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 32, "text": "Well, the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was in the Army. And my dad sent me a newspaper clipping because he knew how much I liked Paradise when we would go there in my childhood. We would go there as much - as often as we could to see my "}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 33, "text": "So let's hear \"Paradise.\" And this is from your 1971 debut album, \"John Prine.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so I wrote the song probably just after I got out of the Army. I wrote it for my dad. I realized that years later, that I just wanted my dad to - I put him in the song so he would know I was a cou"}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 34, "text": "So that's John Prine's famous song \"Paradise\" from his 1971 debut album called \"John Prine.\" So you grew up with a lot of country music because of your father. Did you - it sounds like you turned toward it as opposed to rebelling against it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) When I was a child, my family would travel down to western Kentucky where my parents were born. And there's a backwards old town that's often remembered, so many times that my memories are w"}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 35, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "would skip."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 36, "text": "Your father died when he was 55. He had a massive heart attack on the front porch of your home. How old were you when that happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I learned that - I learned it, you know, verbatim."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 37, "text": "Oh, so he never heard it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was 24, and my first record was a month away from being released."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 38, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is songwriter, singer and guitarist John Prine. He has a new album called \"The Tree Of Forgiveness.\" We'll be back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I borrowed a tape recorder from a - from another family. And I had a quarter-inch tape. And I took it to the house, and I played that record for him. And the last song on the record was \"Paradise."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 39, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is John Prine. He has a new album called \"The Tree Of Forgiveness.\" I know you grew up near a junkyard and said that all the broken glass looked like a field of glittering diamonds. What was it like to grow up near a junkyard? Did you play in it? Was it...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I borrowed a tape recorder from a - from another family. And I had a quarter-inch tape. And I took it to the house, and I played that record for him. And the last song on the record was \"Paradise."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 40, "text": "Were there things in there that you considered treasures? Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. We played in it all the time."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 41, "text": "Were there junkyard dogs? Did you have to confront dogs in the junkyard, as well?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was our war zone. You know, that's where we go to play Army and go to play Cowboys and Indians. I remember one summer, there was these big industrial lightbulbs. And they had dumped them all in t"}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 42, "text": "Like a mail route.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 43, "text": "Oh. Oh. Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "These were true junkyards - not somebody that owned a junkyard that was going to sell the stuff. This was, like, a city dump."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 44, "text": "It was a dump. No, I think of a junkyard as being a business.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 45, "text": "Right. Did it smell? Did you live near it, and did it smell?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no. I know what you mean. Those kind of junkyards - the only ones I ever knew like that were ones with the - where you could take parts off of old autos."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 46, "text": "Right. Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it wouldn't - you couldn't dump food there. It was just - people would dump things."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 47, "text": "So when you returned from being in the military and serving in West Germany, you moved to Chicago. You moved from a suburb outside of Chicago to Chicago. And you became a mailman there. What neighborhoods did you deliver mail to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Lightbulbs, sofas, you know, stuff like that. It might not have even been a real junkyard. Maybe it was something that the authorities didn't find. But us kids found it."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 48, "text": "Oh, it was in the suburbs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I became a mailman in the suburbs."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 49, "text": "I didn't realize that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I never moved into Chicago. I stayed in the suburbs until I moved to Nashville."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 50, "text": "So did you still live with your parents when you came back from the military?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was only, like - I was 10 miles directly from the lakefront. That's how close made Maywood to the edge of Chicago. We grew up on Madison Avenue, which is the dividing line between North Chicago - th"}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 51, "text": "How long did the marriage last?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I got married while I was in the service. And I married an Italian-American girl. This was - she was my high-school girlfriend. And we lived in Melrose Park, the Italian community that bordered Ma"}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 52, "text": "I like the way you say that one lasted", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That one lasted - yikes."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 53, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That one lasted - yikes."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 54, "text": "Right. But...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I've been married three times."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 55, "text": "That's pretty long. So how...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that was 13 years."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 56, "text": "You've been married to your wife now for over 20 years.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks. Congratulations."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 57, "text": "Yeah. Yeah. So was being a mailman a good job for somebody who was writing songs in their spare time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, 23."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 58, "text": "Was that, like, maybe a good thing that your body was kind of occupied with walking the mail route, but your mind was free to think about lyrics without having to sit in a chair?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was great because there's really not much to do when you're a mailman. I mean, so maybe some mailmen make it into an actual job. But once you're out there on the same streets every day, and you rec"}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 59, "text": "Well, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because your mind don't want to be thinking about the weather..."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 60, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And the dogs."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 61, "text": "The dark? What time were you delivering mail?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it's a jungle out there, really. I was never so happy as the day I left the Post Office."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 62, "text": "Oh, dogs. Oh, the dogs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Dogs, not the dark."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 63, "text": "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Were you bitten?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, the ones that bite. Yeah."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 64, "text": "Uh-oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yeah. I got bit in the best possible place..."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 65, "text": "Yeah, I think I've seen that cartoon", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And ripped my pants and had to go over to ER. That was really embarrassing - having a mailman outfit on with the ass of your pants tore out, you know, and a dog bite. You look like a cartoon."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 66, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And ripped my pants and had to go over to ER. That was really embarrassing - having a mailman outfit on with the ass of your pants tore out, you know, and a dog bite. You look like a cartoon."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 67, "text": "So I want to close with another song from your new album. And I can't decide whether to play \"Boundless Love\" or \"I Have Met My Love Today.\" Do you want to choose one from those two?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There you go. I was the cartoon."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 68, "text": "Tell me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, \"Boundless Love\" I got an interesting story about."}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 69, "text": "Well, let's hear it. And, John Prine, it's been a great pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wrote that with three buddies of mine - David Ferguson, (ph) Dan Auerbach from Black Keys and Pat McLaughlin. I thought I mentioned earlier that we wrote for about 30 years now together. Anyway, the"}
{"id": "621022949", "date": "2018-06-18", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Thought He'd Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 70, "text": "John Prine's new album is called \"The Tree Of Forgiveness.\" After a break, Maureen Corrigan will review the new novel about urban Indians called \"There There\" by Native American writer Tommy Orange. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I woke up this morning to a garbage truck. Looks like this old horseshoe's done run out of luck. If I came home, would you let me in, fry me some pork chops and forgive my sin? Surround me w"}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Stephen McCauley, welcome back to FRESH AIR. I love her novel, and I want to start with a reading from the very beginning of it. Would you read the beginning of \"My Ex-Life\"?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies in for Terry Gross. She has the day off, but we're going to hear an interview she just recorded with Stephen McCauley, the author of a new novel Terry really enjoyed"}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 1, "text": "That's Stephen McCauley reading for the opening of his new novel, \"My Ex-Life.\" Of course, Julie's life is nothing like what David imagines. Her marriage is ending. Her home by the ocean is falling apart. She wants to buy out her husband's half and can't afford to.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd love to. (Reading) No, it was not the happiest moment of David Hedge's life. Soren, his partner of five years, had left him. He'd gotten fat. And somewhere in the midst of that, he'd woken up one "}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 2, "text": "It's, like, everything is a mess in her life. So when they come back together again because he's going to help her daughter with her college application, they redevelop the closeness they had when they were married, but without the pretense of a sexual relationship. What made you think about an ex-marriage becoming a different sort of partnership, one of deep friendship that is in some ways even more comfortable and enduring than the romantic, sexual loves that they've had in their lives?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd love to. (Reading) No, it was not the happiest moment of David Hedge's life. Soren, his partner of five years, had left him. He'd gotten fat. And somewhere in the midst of that, he'd woken up one "}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Are you saying less sexual?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I think there were several things that made me think about that. I mean, one is just that it seems to me all relationships evolve as time goes on, even for people who stay together as a coup"}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Do you see there being certain burdens of a relationship that are lifted, like, when they come back together not in a marriage relationship, but just in a deep friendship relationship?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But also, you know, several years ago there was a - and this is kind of a - but maybe a funny source of inspiration for a novel that's essentially comic, and I hope it comes off as being optimistic in"}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 5, "text": "And there's a certain type of jealousy that will not be a part of their relationship.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think so. I think one of the struggles, for me, personally throughout my life with close relationships has been this fear of losing a piece of your identity because you're making - you know, it's in"}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In theory."}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I don't know if you can ever get rid of that entirely."}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 8, "text": "I think it's interesting that you express concern that in a long-term relationship that you fear you would sacrifice some of your identity. And I say that because I always think of that as an issue that women face more than men because women, I think, have traditionally been socialized to be liked, to be accommodating, to compromise. And so I think it's really easy for women to give up some of their identity in order to be liked, in order to be - compromise, in order to meet somebody else in the middle. And in a marriage, that often means, you know - meaning - like, giving up some of yourself to your husband or your boyfriend or, you know, whatever.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, there's a scene in the novel where one of them - I can't remember, actually, which one it is, but I think it's Julie - goes off to see someone who she may or may not be having an affair with"}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 9, "text": "So tell me how you experienced that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 10, "text": "But - I don't know who your partner is, but you might be more famous than he is. Like, you might be the one who's doing the readings and the tours.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think if there's only one person who's giving up a piece of their identity - you know, if it's just the woman; the husband isn't, you know, moving at all in his needs or his demands - then may"}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 11, "text": ". How do you deal with your introversion when you are on stage and you're doing a reading?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In the real world, I'm not sure."}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 12, "text": "What are some of the others?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I've been teaching for about 30 years. And I think that's really helped a lot because I have to stand in front of a classroom full of people. And I kind of enjoy having an audience - you kno"}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 13, "text": "Because you're not trying to be somebody who you're not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that's - you know, that's really a big one. I think that I just feel much more self-accepting now that - even in terms of writing, a lot of times I have felt - maybe especially because I'm sur"}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 14, "text": "So getting back to your novel - since the premise of the novel is a marriage that ended 30 years ago because the husband came out as gay, then these two people reunite as very close friends and teammates, you know, partners in a different kind of way, do you know a lot of marriages that ended because one partner came out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And because I'm embracing the things that I enjoy doing and I enjoy writing and just kind of going ahead with it full steam."}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Were these people of different ages?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do. I know a surprising number of marriages that ended that way. At one point - I can't remember - it was probably 20 years ago, I was in a running group, you know, that would meet twice a week and "}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 16, "text": "I'm wondering, you know, if it's easier for couples like that to stay friends afterwards because the divorce wasn't necessarily based on, like, you hurt me or you wronged me or I can't get along with you. It's like, oh, I realize I'm gay. You know? So I could see the door remaining more open in a situation like that. And I know relationships where the door has remained very open and the couple has remained friends even though the marriage dissolved, you know, where one partner came out as gay.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There were people of different ages. Mostly they were, you know, somewhere in the 35-55 range, I would say."}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Stephen McCauley. And his new novel is called \"My Ex-Life.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. My observation is that that's often the case. And this group that I'm talking about, there were a number of people who had remained extremely close friends with their ex-wives. There is the oth"}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is novelist Stephen McCauley who's probably best-known for his novel \"The Object Of My Affection,\" which was adapted into a film that Jennifer Aniston starred in. His new novel, \"My Ex-Life,\" is about a couple who had been married 30 years ago until he - the husband, David - came out as gay. Now, for several reasons, they've come back together but this time as good friends and as allies. And what's brought them together is that he's a college adviser, and he's been asked to help the daughter, Mandy, with her college application and her college essay application. So the daughter in the novel, Mandy, is one of the girls who thinks that she's not really attractive. She's not popular. She has a lot of doubts about herself. And one of the characters speculates, like, this is the kind of girl who gets herself into trouble. And this is the kind of girl who a boy or a man can exploit. And that turns out to be true. What can you tell us that you feel comfortable giving away about how she is taken advantage of?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. My observation is that that's often the case. And this group that I'm talking about, there were a number of people who had remained extremely close friends with their ex-wives. There is the oth"}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 19, "text": "So have you had experiences with students or young women who - or your friends, or the daughters of your friends who've done that and have - or have nearly - gotten themselves into trouble, or into a dangerous situation or, you know, been exploited in a way that, you know, was really damaging to them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Mandy, as you describe her, is someone who feels that - as many of us do, I think - that somewhere within us, we have this undiscovered talent and quality that makes us unique and makes us stand"}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 20, "text": "You know, some of the men who chat with Mandy on the Internet, they want to talk about their illnesses...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, one of the things that is attractive about it to Mandy is that it allows her to be a different person when she is chatting online with anonymous men. It allows her to enter into a different "}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 21, "text": "...With diabetes being at the top of the list.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Where did that come from? Have you heard that that happens a lot?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Another issue in your novel has to do with renting out rooms.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross, who has the day off. Let's get back to the interview she just recorded with Stephen McCauley about his new novel, \"My Ex-Life.\" He writes percep"}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Julie wants to buy out her husband's half of the mortgage on their big, rambling, falling-apart, 19th-century home that was allegedly built by a sea captain, and she wants to rent out rooms. And the book jacket - the author bio on the book jacket of your novel \"My Ex-Life\" says you have several properties listed on Airbnb", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross, who has the day off. Let's get back to the interview she just recorded with Stephen McCauley about his new novel, \"My Ex-Life.\" He writes percep"}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 25, "text": "in New York and Massachusetts. So what's your situation?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross, who has the day off. Let's get back to the interview she just recorded with Stephen McCauley about his new novel, \"My Ex-Life.\" He writes percep"}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 26, "text": "Whoa", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My situation is changing because regulations around short-term rentals are changing in Massachusetts, for example - in certain cities in Massachusetts. But, you know, I was very lucky. A few of my nov"}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My situation is changing because regulations around short-term rentals are changing in Massachusetts, for example - in certain cities in Massachusetts. But, you know, I was very lucky. A few of my nov"}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 28, "text": "Of course, the reverse of that is true, too. The people who rent are putting themselves - especially if they're renting like a room in a family's home while the family is there - you're putting yourself in the hands of these people you don't know.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so there's that attitude. And at the same time, people are renting out rooms in their houses to complete strangers and sharing their most intimate spaces with them - their kitchens and their bathr"}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 29, "text": "Why can't you write in a place that you're familiar with like your home or one of your properties?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. No. I mean, and that's the way I travel actually because what's so crazy is that I bought this real estate to use it as a place to go write. Then I can't write there, so I have to rent it out. A"}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 30, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know. I wish I knew, Terry. You'll have to talk to my shrink about that but I don't think he knows either because he isn't able to help me. But I don't know. I think I have a very nice study in the "}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 31, "text": "So Julie, who has the big old home that she is renting rooms from, one of the renters - well, two of the renters, really - they're a couple who actually, it turns out, give advice to people who rent out places. And, of course, they charge a lot of money for it. But they want to have her hire them. And they've coined the term messology (ph) as in a mess and how to undo a mess. So they're experts in messology. So what are some of the good advice and some of the, in your opinion, bad advice that this couple gives?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But just, you know, I like having a separation between where I work and where I kind of relax, I suppose."}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 32, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, at one point in the novel, Julie hires a woman who comes in to - and her job is to help people who run Airbnbs, maximize their profits. And, you know, she demands that everything be de-cluttered"}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 33, "text": "Well, you have a theory in the book about why so many rentals have so many throw pillows and that's because it discourages inappropriate sex", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But, you know, there's literally nowhere to put the toss pillows. You can't use a sofa or a bed if they're covered with pillows. And so I guess in my mind I thought, you know, there must be some Airbn"}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But, you know, there's literally nowhere to put the toss pillows. You can't use a sofa or a bed if they're covered with pillows. And so I guess in my mind I thought, you know, there must be some Airbn"}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is novelist Stephen McCauley. His new novel is called \"My Ex-Life.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. That and, you know, like potpourri in the bedrooms and other things that are kind of, you know, turnoffs to erotic activity - also because, you know, toss pillows make the furniture look welcomin"}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 36, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is novelist Stephen McCauley Several of his novels, including \"The Object Of My Affection,\" have been adapted into movies. His new novel is called \"My Ex-Life.\" He also co-directs the creative writing program at Brandeis University. The first time we talked in 1996, we talked about how one of your characters - your main character - always felt like he was either too young and then he felt like he was too old. And he never felt like he was the right age. And you talked about how when you started teaching, you felt like you were too young to be an authority figure. And then at some point, you felt like you were too old in the sense that you had kind of bypassed the common reference points that you used to have with your students. Where are you now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. That and, you know, like potpourri in the bedrooms and other things that are kind of, you know, turnoffs to erotic activity - also because, you know, toss pillows make the furniture look welcomin"}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 37, "text": "So you came out in the 1970s when you were in your late teens.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm at the I-don't-care phase, you know, which is kind of a great phase to be in. I mean, I feel as if I actually feel - I mean, Terry, I hate to be so positive, but I feel as if I do have something t"}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 38, "text": "And there are so many issues relating to, like, sexual orientation and gender identity that have changed over the years in terms of how they're expressed and how people identify themselves. And you're seeing that not just as, like, a person in the world but also as a professor at a university and having been at universities for years. You've seen, like, you know, generations of students come and go and define themselves in different ways. There's a character in your new book, who's a college student, who goes by the name D - the letter D - and wants to be referred to as the gender-neutral they instead of he or she. That's a relatively new phenomenon. And, you know, the idea of, like, gender-neutral names and gender-neutral identity, and I'm wondering how you're processing that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 39, "text": "I know.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a really good question. Its a really big question right now in academia, especially..."}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 40, "text": "So in addition to your novels written under your name, Stephen McCauley, you've written a couple of yoga novels under...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I guess, you know, for me as a teacher, I am really happy to call my students whatever pronouns they want to be called by. I had a student recently who wanted to be called it. And I said"}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 41, "text": "...The name Rain Mitchell.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 42, "text": "I've seen them referred to as yoga novels. I'm not sure what a...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 43, "text": "...Yoga novel is. Is the main character a yoga instructor?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 44, "text": "Why is it more liberating?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's it. That's what makes it a yoga novel. There are two novels and - that Rain Mitchell wrote. And they're set at a yoga studio in the Silver Lake's neighborhood of Los Angeles. And most of the ma"}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 45, "text": "Was it also...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's a complete lack of self-consciousness about anyone reading it and judging it, even though I knew that, you know, some people would know that I had written it. And I don't know. I think I just "}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 46, "text": "Yeah, go ahead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One of..."}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 47, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...People who are like, you know, dating a stand-in for Derek Jeter..."}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 48, "text": "Why did you choose the name Rain Mitchell as your pseudonym?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I mean, you know, auditioning for a Beyonce video. You know, and I just kind of went into this, you know, without any hesitation, and it was really fun to do. And when I finished that project, I tr"}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 49, "text": "Wait, wait. Why was that important?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think because - well, first of all, the publisher wanted something that could be male or female. And..."}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 50, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know because, very quickly, they changed it to, OK, Rain Mitchell is a woman. And, you know, I had to write all these blog posts as Rain Mitchell..."}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 51, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And about her experiences and her life. And she kind of had like the ideal family life and the supportive mother who encouraged her to..."}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 52, "text": "Did you feel deceitful acting as if you were a real person online?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Write and to read. And so, you know, basically everything that I didn't have, you know, I gave to this character, essentially, that I was creating. And I've always been a huge fan of Joni Mitchell,"}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 53, "text": "What are the covers like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No because I don't think there was, you know, a very huge audience listening to it, so I didn't. I just kind of went with it, you know, that I really believed in this person who was writing these book"}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 54, "text": "So I want to end with some music. I'm always interested in the music that your characters like in your novels. I remember talking about - talking with you about Lee Wiley, the jazz singer from the '30s through, I guess, the '50s, who one of your main characters from an earlier book really loved. And in your new novel, \"My Ex-Life,\" one of the main characters loves French singers including Francoise Hardy. I thought we'd end with something from her. My introduction to her was in the film \"Moonrise Kingdom,\" the Wes Anderson film because the two kids who are the main characters from that movie run away together. And there's a scene on the beach where they have a portable record player, and they're playing the Francoise Hardy song \"Le Temps De 'Lamour.\" And as they play it, they dance and then kiss. And they've never really kissed before, so it's a really - it's a lovely scene. What's your favorite Francoise Hardy track that you'd like us to end with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They vary greatly from, you know, like, someone doing yoga in high heels on a yoga mat because the idea behind the books was \"Sex And The City\" at a yoga studio. You know, five women in a yoga studio."}
{"id": "621758126", "date": "2018-06-20", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 55, "text": "Good. Let's end with that. Stephen McCauley, it's been great. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think my favorite is called \"L'amitie,\" which is - means friendship. And it has some of those same qualities of kind of being wistful and melancholy but at the same time joyful. And because it's abo"}
{"id": "622515587", "date": "2018-06-22", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "In The Event Of Attack, Here's How The Government Plans 'To Save Itself'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Garrett Graff, welcome to FRESH AIR. Why did you want to write a book about the government's doomsday plans to keep the government going?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, editor of the website TV Worth Watching, sitting in for Terry Gross. There's a mix of the terrifying, the absurd and the bureaucratic in the book by Garrett Gra"}
{"id": "622515587", "date": "2018-06-22", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "In The Event Of Attack, Here's How The Government Plans 'To Save Itself'", "question_index": 1, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've covered national security for, you know, better part of a decade in Washington, and you bump up against these programs in - when you're writing about other related subjects. I mean, I've talked t"}
{"id": "622515587", "date": "2018-06-22", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "In The Event Of Attack, Here's How The Government Plans 'To Save Itself'", "question_index": 2, "text": "Another thing I'd say about that is it means your ID is a constant reminder that nuclear apocalypse might be imminent, and you have to go to an assigned place if it happens.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And you can sort of see very clearly these big, concrete bunker doors, this little guard shack, you know, chain-link fence and then this set of concrete bunker doors beyond. And it was a facility that"}
{"id": "622515587", "date": "2018-06-22", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "In The Event Of Attack, Here's How The Government Plans 'To Save Itself'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Your book is named after the Raven Rock bunker. Would you describe where that bunker is and what you know about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And that's really, in my mind, one of the most interesting aspects of these plans - is this strange mix of these very concrete, you know, black-and-white plans written down and very neatly organ"}
{"id": "622515587", "date": "2018-06-22", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "In The Event Of Attack, Here's How The Government Plans 'To Save Itself'", "question_index": 4, "text": "So you have these underground bunkers the size of cities in case of nuclear attack to protect members of government and keep the government going. You say that these places are staffed 24 hours a day, 365 days a year.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Raven Rock bunker is in Waynesboro, Pa., or just outside Waynesboro, Pa., not far from Camp David, just over the Pennsylvania side of the Maryland line. And it's a bunker that dates back to the la"}
{"id": "622515587", "date": "2018-06-22", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "In The Event Of Attack, Here's How The Government Plans 'To Save Itself'", "question_index": 5, "text": "One of the plans, called Plan C, is a secret plan to suspend peacetime civil liberties and arrest thousands of potential, quote, \"subversives,\" and force foreigners to register. When is that plan from, and is it still active?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. They are staffed 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. And it's not just the bunkers. Right as we are sitting here talking today, there is a presidential doomsday plane, these converted 747s that are "}
{"id": "622515587", "date": "2018-06-22", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "In The Event Of Attack, Here's How The Government Plans 'To Save Itself'", "question_index": 6, "text": "But you don't know what that document is or where it might be, but you're speculating that it probably exists.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So this plan dates back to the 1950s and 1960s. You know, a lot of people today are familiar with the president's nuclear football, the black briefcase that follows the president wherever he goes. Wel"}
{"id": "622515587", "date": "2018-06-22", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "In The Event Of Attack, Here's How The Government Plans 'To Save Itself'", "question_index": 7, "text": "There was a plan in the 1950s during the Eisenhower era for business leaders to take control of government if government leaders were all killed. Is that - do I have that right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And we know that there are drafts of many of these plans that exist in modern times because we get sort of brief windows here and there into secret law and secret executive orders that president"}
{"id": "622515587", "date": "2018-06-22", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "In The Event Of Attack, Here's How The Government Plans 'To Save Itself'", "question_index": 8, "text": "There is a plan, or at least there was a plan - I assume there still is a plan - for what to do if the president is killed or the vice president or members of Congress. It's called the continuity of government plan. What can you tell us about that?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview recorded last year with author Garrett Graff. His book called \"Raven Rock: The Story Of The U.S. Government's Secret Plan To Save Itself - While "}
{"id": "622515587", "date": "2018-06-22", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "In The Event Of Attack, Here's How The Government Plans 'To Save Itself'", "question_index": 9, "text": "So you mentioned that the continuity of government plan reimagines what some agencies' services would be after a nuclear attack. And for the post office, in one of the plans, it would have been responsible for registering the nation's dead, for keeping a list of everybody who died, which is - I'm not sure why that would have been assigned to the post office. But what a grave task to take on. Somebody's got to do it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the continuity of government plan is sort of the umbrella term for all of these plans, both what would happen during a nuclear attack, sort of who would be in charge at any given moment, how that p"}
{"id": "622515587", "date": "2018-06-22", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "In The Event Of Attack, Here's How The Government Plans 'To Save Itself'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Sure. Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean, each government agency had, during the Cold War, sort of its post-apocalypse analog. The post office was the agency that would have been in charge of registering the dead and figuring ou"}
{"id": "622515587", "date": "2018-06-22", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "In The Event Of Attack, Here's How The Government Plans 'To Save Itself'", "question_index": 11, "text": "I wonder what happened to those Nabisco survival biscuits.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it would sort of understand, you know, who was left. And so you would arrive in the refugee camps after your cities had been destroyed. And you would have been handed Form 810 from the post of"}
{"id": "622515587", "date": "2018-06-22", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "In The Event Of Attack, Here's How The Government Plans 'To Save Itself'", "question_index": 12, "text": "You actually know what happened to them", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so it's sort of a funny story. They - many of them ended up..."}
{"id": "622515587", "date": "2018-06-22", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "In The Event Of Attack, Here's How The Government Plans 'To Save Itself'", "question_index": 13, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so it's sort of a funny story. They - many of them ended up..."}
{"id": "622515587", "date": "2018-06-22", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "In The Event Of Attack, Here's How The Government Plans 'To Save Itself'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Not a surprise", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so many of them ended up getting scrapped. But then every so often, people still stumble across, you know, a forgotten fallout shelter or something and come across, you know, stacks and stacks o"}
{"id": "622515587", "date": "2018-06-22", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "In The Event Of Attack, Here's How The Government Plans 'To Save Itself'", "question_index": 15, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so many of them ended up getting scrapped. But then every so often, people still stumble across, you know, a forgotten fallout shelter or something and come across, you know, stacks and stacks o"}
{"id": "622515587", "date": "2018-06-22", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "In The Event Of Attack, Here's How The Government Plans 'To Save Itself'", "question_index": 16, "text": "One of the most visible, commonly known aspects of the nuclear plan is the nuclear football. And the nuclear football - you describe what it is.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's 2017 interview with journalist Garrett Graff, who covers national security. His latest book, which is now out in p"}
{"id": "622515587", "date": "2018-06-22", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "In The Event Of Attack, Here's How The Government Plans 'To Save Itself'", "question_index": 17, "text": "When did this nuclear football originate?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The nuclear football is the briefcase that follows the president wherever he goes. And it's carried by a military aide. And contrary to sort of pop culture or public perception, there is no such thing"}
{"id": "622515587", "date": "2018-06-22", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "In The Event Of Attack, Here's How The Government Plans 'To Save Itself'", "question_index": 18, "text": "Thank you for explaining that. It never made any sense to me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the popular mythology is that it originated sort of soon after the Cuban missile crisis. And that's where it sort of first came into the public imagination - was the idea that you needed someone wh"}
{"id": "622515587", "date": "2018-06-22", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "In The Event Of Attack, Here's How The Government Plans 'To Save Itself'", "question_index": 19, "text": "OK, so the nuclear football isn't a button that the president can push to launch nuclear war. It's a set of plans that the president can put into effect. But the president can still put one of those effects - one of those plans into effect very quickly, almost as quickly as pressing a button.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "622515587", "date": "2018-06-22", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "In The Event Of Attack, Here's How The Government Plans 'To Save Itself'", "question_index": 20, "text": "That is very sobering.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And, in fact, that's one of the things that is strange to think about in the context of these plans - is that everyone thinks that these plans, you know, have all sorts of, you know, authenticati"}
{"id": "622515587", "date": "2018-06-22", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "In The Event Of Attack, Here's How The Government Plans 'To Save Itself'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Fortunately, we've never had a chance to check how these nuclear catastrophe scenarios would play out in reality. But we did have a catastrophe - that was 9/11 - in which - how much of these orders were actually launched then? Did people go to their bunkers?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2017 interview with journalist Garrett Graff, who covers national security. His latest book, which is now out in paperback, is called \"Raven Rock: The Stor"}
{"id": "622515587", "date": "2018-06-22", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "In The Event Of Attack, Here's How The Government Plans 'To Save Itself'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Why not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, 9/11 was the only time in our history that these plans were ever activated in an emergency. And you saw them sort of play out across the country. I mean, the president - President Bush was put a"}
{"id": "622515587", "date": "2018-06-22", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "In The Event Of Attack, Here's How The Government Plans 'To Save Itself'", "question_index": 23, "text": "People wondered where he was that day.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so one thing is human psychology just makes it - makes these plans challenging in a way that is entirely foreseeable, which is, you have people who - you know, when the Pentagon was struck, Dona"}
{"id": "622515587", "date": "2018-06-22", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "In The Event Of Attack, Here's How The Government Plans 'To Save Itself'", "question_index": 24, "text": "So how do you know for sure that there's nothing in between the president's ability to launch unilaterally a nuclear attack? Between - there's nothing between him and doing it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And it was a real tension throughout that day. I mean, he received a lot of criticism for, you know, not marching right back to the White House, not marching right to ground zero. But the - you "}
{"id": "622515587", "date": "2018-06-22", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "In The Event Of Attack, Here's How The Government Plans 'To Save Itself'", "question_index": 25, "text": "How did you manage to write this book without sinking into a complete state of despair?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's just the way that these procedures have evolved over the years - is to remove any middlemen that could slow the process down because the decision-making window would be so short as it is, you kno"}
{"id": "622515587", "date": "2018-06-22", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "In The Event Of Attack, Here's How The Government Plans 'To Save Itself'", "question_index": 26, "text": "I don't know if you can generalize about this or not. But what would you say is the general opinion among people in the know who you've spoken to for your book about whether the continuity of government plans would actually work if there were a nuclear or biochemical attack?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so some of it is these - there's a lot of humor in a lot of these plans, you know, sort of unintentional government humor in the way that, you know, sort of strange government decision-making dr"}
{"id": "622515587", "date": "2018-06-22", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "In The Event Of Attack, Here's How The Government Plans 'To Save Itself'", "question_index": 27, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Garrett Graff. He's the author of the new book \"Raven Rock: The Story Of The U.S. Government\u2019s Secret Plan To Save Itself -- While The Rest Of Us Die.\" And I have to ask you about the title, Garrett.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So some level of them would likely work, insofar as there would be someone who was in charge somewhere in order to restart the government. But one of the problems that still challenges modern planning"}
{"id": "622515587", "date": "2018-06-22", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "In The Event Of Attack, Here's How The Government Plans 'To Save Itself'", "question_index": 28, "text": "It's, like - it's a very funny title. Does it reflect what you think, you know, that - you know, it's nice to have all these plans, but we're going to die if we have that kind of attack?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So some level of them would likely work, insofar as there would be someone who was in charge somewhere in order to restart the government. But one of the problems that still challenges modern planning"}
{"id": "622515587", "date": "2018-06-22", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "In The Event Of Attack, Here's How The Government Plans 'To Save Itself'", "question_index": 29, "text": "Garrett Graff, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And, in fact, this is to a certain extent, the arc of the book, which is that these plans start out in the 1940s and 1950s with the grandest of hopes and ambitions, the idea that we'll be able t"}
{"id": "623367320", "date": "2018-06-26", "guest": "Alissa Quart", "title": "'Squeezed' Explores Why America Is Getting Too Expensive For The Middle Class", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. If you're middle class and feel like you're having a hard time staying middle class, you are not alone. In fact, you're the kind of person my guest, Alissa Quart, writes about in her new book \"Squeezed: Why Our Families Can't Afford America.\" She reports on how the costs of housing, child care, health care and more have far outpaced salaries and how that's changing the lives of middle-class Americans, as well as life in American cities. Quart is the executive editor of the Economic Hardship Reporting Project. Alissa Quart, welcome to FRESH AIR. So the mantra of your book is it's not your fault. And that's something you had to convince yourself of. Tell us what you felt guilty about that exemplifies what you think others feel guilty about too in terms of being able to maintain themselves in the middle class and provide for their child or children.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "623367320", "date": "2018-06-26", "guest": "Alissa Quart", "title": "'Squeezed' Explores Why America Is Getting Too Expensive For The Middle Class", "question_index": 1, "text": "You write middle class life is now 30 percent more expensive than it was 20 years ago. And in some cases, the cost of daily life has doubled. What do you define as middle class for that statistic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So when I got pregnant with my daughter, both my husband and I were freelancers, and we didn't have that much security. We had savings. We were better off than many people, but we didn't have, you kno"}
{"id": "623367320", "date": "2018-06-26", "guest": "Alissa Quart", "title": "'Squeezed' Explores Why America Is Getting Too Expensive For The Middle Class", "question_index": 2, "text": "So what do you think are the main expenses that have gone up for American families?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So I'm defining it according to a 2016 Pew survey with a yearly - those with a yearly household income for a family of three ranging from $42,000 to $125,000. And in 2014, that was 51 percent of"}
{"id": "623367320", "date": "2018-06-26", "guest": "Alissa Quart", "title": "'Squeezed' Explores Why America Is Getting Too Expensive For The Middle Class", "question_index": 3, "text": "You didn't have a child until you were 38. How much did the cost of having a child figure into waiting that long?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Expenses that have gone up starts with housing and the cost of real estate, of homeownership. And then, it continues on with health care, which is, as everybody knows, astronomical and then schooling."}
{"id": "623367320", "date": "2018-06-26", "guest": "Alissa Quart", "title": "'Squeezed' Explores Why America Is Getting Too Expensive For The Middle Class", "question_index": 4, "text": "So those surveys that show that women with children make less money, what's the explanation for that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I'll be honest. I think for me some of it was that, but most of it was other sorts of things that I actually talk about in the book as well. And we also know that, you know, mothers are esti"}
{"id": "623367320", "date": "2018-06-26", "guest": "Alissa Quart", "title": "'Squeezed' Explores Why America Is Getting Too Expensive For The Middle Class", "question_index": 5, "text": "Were you still a freelance journalist when you had your child?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's, you know, employers' prejudice that, you know, there's a lot of sense that, oh, they're going to be less productive. We have such limited maternity leave. Paid family leave is - somethin"}
{"id": "623367320", "date": "2018-06-26", "guest": "Alissa Quart", "title": "'Squeezed' Explores Why America Is Getting Too Expensive For The Middle Class", "question_index": 6, "text": "So let's talk about child care, and child care is so expensive. I'm talking about, you know, day care. And working women - I think the number of working women that we have in our society today, it's a relatively new phenomenon. And I don't think our society has adjusted to it yet in terms of having an infrastructure that makes it possible for two parents to work and be able to afford child care. Child care is just so expensive. What are some of the figures for the cost of day care that you've come up with, both as a parent and as a researcher for this book?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I was a freelance journalist. And, you know, part of the thing in our industry in journalism is that since 2004, newspapers have lost 50 percent of their jobs. So, you know, it was a real concer"}
{"id": "623367320", "date": "2018-06-26", "guest": "Alissa Quart", "title": "'Squeezed' Explores Why America Is Getting Too Expensive For The Middle Class", "question_index": 7, "text": "So, you know, you write in your book that teachers, both, like, teachers in public schools and college teachers, especially adjunct professors, are having a hard time making ends meet. So let's start with schoolteachers. Give us an example of one of the people who you interviewed who's struggling who's a schoolteacher.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So right now, two-thirds of women with kids under 6 are working. So that is a huge number. And those are kids who are often too young to be in kindergarten or even preschool. So that means that "}
{"id": "623367320", "date": "2018-06-26", "guest": "Alissa Quart", "title": "'Squeezed' Explores Why America Is Getting Too Expensive For The Middle Class", "question_index": 8, "text": "That's kind of bad for society because, from having taught very briefly myself, I know that evenings are usually spent grading papers, planning lessons, maybe making phone calls to parents. So if you don't have evenings to do that kind of work, when are you going to do it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So yeah - so I spoke to Matt Barry, who lived in San Jose, Calif., and he was a schoolteacher. He and his wife both teach. They earned $69,000, a combined salary, which, if we do the math, is - should"}
{"id": "623367320", "date": "2018-06-26", "guest": "Alissa Quart", "title": "'Squeezed' Explores Why America Is Getting Too Expensive For The Middle Class", "question_index": 9, "text": "Oh, like while working with Uber or Lyft.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, exactly. And this was - also there was the paradox that some of these people were driving the parents of their students. So it just created..."}
{"id": "623367320", "date": "2018-06-26", "guest": "Alissa Quart", "title": "'Squeezed' Explores Why America Is Getting Too Expensive For The Middle Class", "question_index": 10, "text": "You write that teachers as Uber drivers was a thing for a while.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, and driving the parents of their students. So it just kind of created this bizarre sort of secondary service economy."}
{"id": "623367320", "date": "2018-06-26", "guest": "Alissa Quart", "title": "'Squeezed' Explores Why America Is Getting Too Expensive For The Middle Class", "question_index": 11, "text": "You also write about adjunct professors. Would you explain what an adjunct is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And they, Uber, had a campaign. I think it was Uber teachers driving our future, or something like that. And that was in 2014 or '15. And they also had one for nurses. And so, I mean, I wrote ab"}
{"id": "623367320", "date": "2018-06-26", "guest": "Alissa Quart", "title": "'Squeezed' Explores Why America Is Getting Too Expensive For The Middle Class", "question_index": 12, "text": "And you write that adjuncts make up 40 percent of the teachers at American colleges and universities. I didn't realize the statistic was that high. What does it mean financially for adjuncts who get paid by the class as opposed to a full-time salary?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "An adjunct professor is somebody who works basically as a freelance professor. They work contingently. They don't have tenure. They teach individual classes, sometimes for many different universities "}
{"id": "623367320", "date": "2018-06-26", "guest": "Alissa Quart", "title": "'Squeezed' Explores Why America Is Getting Too Expensive For The Middle Class", "question_index": 13, "text": "So why is it that college costs have gone up so high, yet 40 percent of the teachers at American colleges and universities are adjuncts and aren't getting paid very much?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, I spoke to adjuncts who made $1,700 a class or $3,000 a class, and so then they were teaching three or four courses a semester and then they were sometimes barely making $24,000. They were"}
{"id": "623367320", "date": "2018-06-26", "guest": "Alissa Quart", "title": "'Squeezed' Explores Why America Is Getting Too Expensive For The Middle Class", "question_index": 14, "text": "Yeah. Does the high salaries of top administrators really explain what adjuncts are getting paid? Because to pay a few salaries a lot of money when you have, like, you know, thousands of kids, of students, in your university, it's not hard to make up those salaries. I'm not trying to justify or not justify those salaries one way or another, but I'm not sure that that fully explains the low pay of adjuncts.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah. It's because college and university administrative positions have risen. It's kind of the corporatization of the university system. They've grown by 60 percent between 1993 and 2009. And t"}
{"id": "623367320", "date": "2018-06-26", "guest": "Alissa Quart", "title": "'Squeezed' Explores Why America Is Getting Too Expensive For The Middle Class", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Alissa Quart, and she's the author of the new book, \"Squeezed: Why Our Families Can't Afford America.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, some of it is that a lot of labor has become contingent in general. It's not unionized. You know, universities can be quasi-businesses, right? Some of them are outright businesses. And so they"}
{"id": "623367320", "date": "2018-06-26", "guest": "Alissa Quart", "title": "'Squeezed' Explores Why America Is Getting Too Expensive For The Middle Class", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is journalist Alissa Quart, author of the new book, \"Squeezed: Why Our Families Can't Afford America.\" She's also the executive editor of the Economic Hardship Reporting Project. So you spoke to people who - because housing prices are so high and because child care prices are so high - you spoke to people who are coming up with alternative living arrangements to deal both with the child care price issue and the housing price issue. Share with us some of those alternative housing plans that you've seen.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, some of it is that a lot of labor has become contingent in general. It's not unionized. You know, universities can be quasi-businesses, right? Some of them are outright businesses. And so they"}
{"id": "623367320", "date": "2018-06-26", "guest": "Alissa Quart", "title": "'Squeezed' Explores Why America Is Getting Too Expensive For The Middle Class", "question_index": 17, "text": "And you found alternative living arrangements, too, for people just wanting to share their rent. And we're not talking about people in college, or just out of college or just starting out on their own who want roommates.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So yeah, so I feel like one of the things that made this project less depressing was that it pointed to solutions. And some of those solutions were really big. They involve us voting differently. They"}
{"id": "623367320", "date": "2018-06-26", "guest": "Alissa Quart", "title": "'Squeezed' Explores Why America Is Getting Too Expensive For The Middle Class", "question_index": 18, "text": "You write that crowdfunding is now an essential part of America's safety net. Would you elaborate on that for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. These were not kids. These were people in their 30s and 40s who sometimes had done this multiple times. They live with a roommate with a kid, and they would cook meals together. And one of the c"}
{"id": "623367320", "date": "2018-06-26", "guest": "Alissa Quart", "title": "'Squeezed' Explores Why America Is Getting Too Expensive For The Middle Class", "question_index": 19, "text": "I did not know that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So I wrote a piece in The Times about six months ago about something I call the dystopic social net. And what I mean by that is GoFundMe or other kinds of philanthropies that are coming into the"}
{"id": "623367320", "date": "2018-06-26", "guest": "Alissa Quart", "title": "'Squeezed' Explores Why America Is Getting Too Expensive For The Middle Class", "question_index": 20, "text": "So unemployment numbers are down now. So statistically, things are looking really good. So how does that figure into your larger theme of how difficult it is to stay middle-class?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. For a range of things, from school lunches to notebooks and pencils. It's very distressing."}
{"id": "623367320", "date": "2018-06-26", "guest": "Alissa Quart", "title": "'Squeezed' Explores Why America Is Getting Too Expensive For The Middle Class", "question_index": 21, "text": "And a lot of people say that many of those new jobs are fairly low-wage.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think we're looking - there's a difference between long term and short term, and some of those changes in the numbers are short term, but some of the problems that we have are long term. And a"}
{"id": "623367320", "date": "2018-06-26", "guest": "Alissa Quart", "title": "'Squeezed' Explores Why America Is Getting Too Expensive For The Middle Class", "question_index": 22, "text": "So you are now the executive editor of the Economic Hardship Reporting Project. What is it? Tell us about it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. They're low-wage jobs. And, you know, sometimes they're in sectors that are actually going down, like retail work, which is eventually, again, going to be automated."}
{"id": "623367320", "date": "2018-06-26", "guest": "Alissa Quart", "title": "'Squeezed' Explores Why America Is Getting Too Expensive For The Middle Class", "question_index": 23, "text": "Well, I want to thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it was founded originally by Barbara Ehrenreich, who wrote \"Nickel And Dimed.\" And I sort of co-founded its current incarnation with her four or five years ago at this point. And we give grants to "}
{"id": "623367320", "date": "2018-06-26", "guest": "Alissa Quart", "title": "'Squeezed' Explores Why America Is Getting Too Expensive For The Middle Class", "question_index": 24, "text": "Alissa Quart is the author of the new book \"Squeezed: Why Our Families Can't Afford America.\" She's the executive editor of the Economic Hardship Reporting Project.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, you're welcome."}
{"id": "623367320", "date": "2018-06-26", "guest": "Alissa Quart", "title": "'Squeezed' Explores Why America Is Getting Too Expensive For The Middle Class", "question_index": 25, "text": "After we take a short break, we'll hear from Frank Newsome, who sings hymns a cappella in a style that's one of America's oldest musical traditions. He's a former coal miner who now has black lung disease. His album of hymns has just been widely released. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I've gotten down to my last pair of shoes. Can't even win a nickel bet because them that's got are them that gets. And I ain't got nothing yet. I'm sneaking in and out..."}
{"id": "624247540", "date": "2018-06-28", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "Reporter Covering Immigration Warns Government Is 'Ill Equipped' To Reunite Families", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Jonathan Blitzer, covers immigration for The New Yorker. He's in El Paso, Texas, where he spent the past couple of weeks reporting on the crisis at the border. He's interviewed parents in detention who were separated from their children after crossing the border illegally. Some of these parents don't even know where their children are being held. Blitzer has also been writing about the Trump administration's confusing and shifting immigration policies, the lack of coordination between the different departments enforcing those policies and the chaos this has created. Jonathan Blitzer, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Let's start with the new ruling by a federal judge in California stopping the Trump administration from separating children from their parents at the border and ordering that all families already separated be reunited within 30 days. Tell us what you think are the most important aspects of that decision.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "624247540", "date": "2018-06-28", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "Reporter Covering Immigration Warns Government Is 'Ill Equipped' To Reunite Families", "question_index": 1, "text": "The head of Health and Human Services, Alex Azar, told senators on Tuesday that he could find any child separated from their migrant parents, quote, \"within seconds.\" He said, there is no reason why any parent would not know where their child is located. He said that within keystrokes, within seconds, he could find any child. Has that been your experience, like, talking with people who have crossed the border illegally and want to know where their children are and want to be able to talk with them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the decision sends an obviously important message of criticism of the government's policy - the family separation policy, the zero tolerance policy - which gave rise to the family separations "}
{"id": "624247540", "date": "2018-06-28", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "Reporter Covering Immigration Warns Government Is 'Ill Equipped' To Reunite Families", "question_index": 2, "text": "So if the agencies got together and said, let's coordinate, would they have the means to do it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's definitely not been my experience. As far as I can tell, that is simply wrong for a number of reasons. I mean, for one thing, you talk to parents who are in detention, who have been in detentio"}
{"id": "624247540", "date": "2018-06-28", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "Reporter Covering Immigration Warns Government Is 'Ill Equipped' To Reunite Families", "question_index": 3, "text": "You've spoken to mothers who had their children taken away from them by federal agents. Did the agents make any effort to identify the children and the mother so that they could be reunited? Were IDs taken? Were names taken? Were addresses - any kind of identifying information so that they can be linked up again?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think whether or not the government can actually reunify families boils down to a question of political will. I think if the government were seriously interested in reuniting parents and kids, it co"}
{"id": "624247540", "date": "2018-06-28", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "Reporter Covering Immigration Warns Government Is 'Ill Equipped' To Reunite Families", "question_index": 4, "text": "When you say, don't work, you mean they're busy or there's no one - it just rings or it's a dead phone number.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is one of the big questions. And in my experience, the women I spoke to - and I spoke to a handful of women in different stages of detention - of criminal and immigration detention. None of them "}
{"id": "624247540", "date": "2018-06-28", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "Reporter Covering Immigration Warns Government Is 'Ill Equipped' To Reunite Families", "question_index": 5, "text": "In the case of this refugee who you mentioned, the case worker who she called knew who her child was, but until this woman called, the caseworker had no idea who the parent was. And so the case worker knew she wanted to find the parent, and she didn't have the means to do it. And so that's an example of somebody working really hard to find the parent of a child and they couldn't do it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A mix of things. The problem I hear most often is that there are long wait times. So you call this number, and there might be a 20, 25 minute wait time. And if you're in immigration detention, you've "}
{"id": "624247540", "date": "2018-06-28", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "Reporter Covering Immigration Warns Government Is 'Ill Equipped' To Reunite Families", "question_index": 6, "text": "Well, Jonathan, let's take a short break here and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jonathan Blitzer. He covers immigration for The New Yorker. And right now, he's based in El Paso. Let's take a short break, and then we'll talk some more. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's exactly right. Which is one of the things we have to keep in mind now that this federal judge has issued this order for the government to immediately reunify parents and children. The reason - "}
{"id": "624247540", "date": "2018-06-28", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "Reporter Covering Immigration Warns Government Is 'Ill Equipped' To Reunite Families", "question_index": 7, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Jonathan Blitzer. He covers immigration for The New Yorker. And right now, he's been working out of El Paso. So now that it's mandatory that the parents and children be united, I guess we'll have to see if there's sufficient coordination between the agencies so that the government can fulfill the demand of the judge.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's exactly right. Which is one of the things we have to keep in mind now that this federal judge has issued this order for the government to immediately reunify parents and children. The reason - "}
{"id": "624247540", "date": "2018-06-28", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "Reporter Covering Immigration Warns Government Is 'Ill Equipped' To Reunite Families", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, you wrote about one woman who agreed to an early deportation thinking that that would unite her sooner with her son and it didn't.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. And I think there are a few other things to keep in mind. So one of them is - just before, I mean, hours before that federal judge issued this order, the head of the Department of Health"}
{"id": "624247540", "date": "2018-06-28", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "Reporter Covering Immigration Warns Government Is 'Ill Equipped' To Reunite Families", "question_index": 9, "text": "So what happened with her child?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a common - and that's a common occurrence in detention, where parents are just so distraught, so confused, you know, that woman who signed this voluntary departure order which led to her, you k"}
{"id": "624247540", "date": "2018-06-28", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "Reporter Covering Immigration Warns Government Is 'Ill Equipped' To Reunite Families", "question_index": 10, "text": "One of the Catch-22s that a lot of asylum seekers have faced - if they're charged with a criminal charge for being here illegally, then they have the right to a public defender. They have a right to a lawyer. But if they're not charged with criminal charges or those criminal charges are dropped and they just become asylum seekers, that seems to raise their status and help their chances. But then they're not given the right to a lawyer. They're not automatically given a lawyer. And they're just kind of like left stranded on their own to navigate the system. Can you talk about that catch?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, this is a difficult case. The short answer is I actually don't know right now. And when I last spoke to her and her lawyer, it sounded like the mother and her child were going to be reun"}
{"id": "624247540", "date": "2018-06-28", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "Reporter Covering Immigration Warns Government Is 'Ill Equipped' To Reunite Families", "question_index": 11, "text": "Once they've, quote, \"fallen off the grid,\" is it hard for them to get legal representation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, just this morning, I got a frantic text message from an immigration lawyer here in El Paso who is rushing to a private prison facility nearby to try to meet women who were leaving crimin"}
{"id": "624247540", "date": "2018-06-28", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "Reporter Covering Immigration Warns Government Is 'Ill Equipped' To Reunite Families", "question_index": 12, "text": "My guest is Jonathan Blitzer, who's currently in El Paso reporting on the crisis at the border. He covers immigration for The New Yorker. We'll talk more after a break. And Ken Tucker will review the new Jay-Z/Beyonce album. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. When they're in criminal custody, there is a federal public defender who is in charge of their cases. But people who are going through immigration proceedings aren't given a lawyer. It's up to "}
{"id": "624247540", "date": "2018-06-28", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "Reporter Covering Immigration Warns Government Is 'Ill Equipped' To Reunite Families", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross back with Jonathan Blitzer, who covers immigration for The New Yorker. He's in El Paso, Texas, where he spent the past couple of weeks reporting on the crisis at the border. He's interviewed parents in detention who were separated from their children after crossing the border illegally. Why have you decided to spend the past few weeks in El Paso? Why did you choose El Paso?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. When they're in criminal custody, there is a federal public defender who is in charge of their cases. But people who are going through immigration proceedings aren't given a lawyer. It's up to "}
{"id": "624247540", "date": "2018-06-28", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "Reporter Covering Immigration Warns Government Is 'Ill Equipped' To Reunite Families", "question_index": 14, "text": "You know, there was that audio tape that a reporter from ProPublica recorded of children - one of the places where they were being held - crying, and it broke people's hearts. And I think it really mobilized people to question the wisdom of the policy separating parents and children. From your reports - you know, you've been talking to women who were separated from their children, and you talk about how much these women are crying.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "El Paso is especially important because it is where the administration first tested out its zero tolerance and family separation policies in the summer of 2017. So the government officially announced "}
{"id": "624247540", "date": "2018-06-28", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "Reporter Covering Immigration Warns Government Is 'Ill Equipped' To Reunite Families", "question_index": 15, "text": "So the women we've been talking about crossed the border illegally with a child or with children. What are the legal ways to seek asylum if you're crossing the border from Mexico?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've never in my life seen anything even remotely like this. I mean, I've been meeting women who are crying so violently they can barely speak. I'm meeting women whose hands are shaking, who look at m"}
{"id": "624247540", "date": "2018-06-28", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "Reporter Covering Immigration Warns Government Is 'Ill Equipped' To Reunite Families", "question_index": 16, "text": "But theoretically, in the future, kids will not be separated from their parents, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There are two ways you can come into the U.S. and seek asylum, essentially. One is through what's called an official port of entry. So that is, essentially, a government checkpoint. It can be at an in"}
{"id": "624247540", "date": "2018-06-28", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "Reporter Covering Immigration Warns Government Is 'Ill Equipped' To Reunite Families", "question_index": 17, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jonathan Blitzer. He covers immigration for The New Yorker. And lately, he's been in El Paso talking to a lot of women who have sought asylum but crossed here into the U.S. illegally. We're going to take a short break, then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. But, you know, it should be said that it's entirely unclear, too, what it means - you know, last - I mean, there's just been so much chaos here. So basically, last week, the president is"}
{"id": "624247540", "date": "2018-06-28", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "Reporter Covering Immigration Warns Government Is 'Ill Equipped' To Reunite Families", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Jonathan Blitzer. He covers immigration for The New Yorker. And right now, he's been working out of El Paso, Texas, where he's been spending a lot of time talking to women whose children were taken away from them after they crossed the border. What does international human rights law say about the rights of asylum-seekers? And what does the Constitution say about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. But, you know, it should be said that it's entirely unclear, too, what it means - you know, last - I mean, there's just been so much chaos here. So basically, last week, the president is"}
{"id": "624247540", "date": "2018-06-28", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "Reporter Covering Immigration Warns Government Is 'Ill Equipped' To Reunite Families", "question_index": 19, "text": "One of the things that Jeff Sessions recently did was end the policy of considering granting asylum to women who sought asylum because they were abused by a husband or a partner. And what does it mean to end that policy? How many women were able to get asylum because, you know, physical or sexual abuse by a spouse or a partner was considered grounds for asylum?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The current administration has had long-standing plans to dismantle the asylum system. This administration sees asylum law as a giant loophole. That's the word that the president and the attorney gene"}
{"id": "624247540", "date": "2018-06-28", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "Reporter Covering Immigration Warns Government Is 'Ill Equipped' To Reunite Families", "question_index": 20, "text": "So you've said that you think the Trump administration has manufactured the current immigration crisis. What do you mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "His ruling from a few weeks ago basically dismissed domestic abuse as grounds for seeking protection in the U.S. under asylum law and also gang violence. He dismissed that also as grounds for seeking "}
{"id": "624247540", "date": "2018-06-28", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "Reporter Covering Immigration Warns Government Is 'Ill Equipped' To Reunite Families", "question_index": 21, "text": "So the Muslim travel ban was upheld by the Supreme Court. President Trump sees this as a great victory. And it is a really big victory for him. How do you think that decision might affect how Trump sees the future of his hardline policies on immigration across the Mexican border?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The numbers of people crossing the border have gone up in recent months compared to kind of where they were when Trump first took office. But if you pan out and look at these numbers in full context, "}
{"id": "624247540", "date": "2018-06-28", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "Reporter Covering Immigration Warns Government Is 'Ill Equipped' To Reunite Families", "question_index": 22, "text": "Well, I want to thank you so much for talking with us, Jonathan. And I want to thank you for your reporting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think the Supreme Court ruling has a specific effect on the policies being pursued along the border. But I definitely think there is a broader kind of motivational element to all of this, whic"}
{"id": "624247540", "date": "2018-06-28", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "Reporter Covering Immigration Warns Government Is 'Ill Equipped' To Reunite Families", "question_index": 23, "text": "Jonathan Blitzer covers immigration for The New Yorker. After we take a short break, Ken Tucker will review the new Jay-Z/Beyonce album. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me, Terry."}
{"id": "624642482", "date": "2018-06-29", "guest": "Donald Hall", "title": "Remembering Former Poet Laureate Donald Hall", "question_index": 0, "text": "Donald Hall, thank you for reading that. Let me just paraphrase something that you wrote in - at the end of the reading that you gave at the beginning of our talk. You were saying that you were thinking that your death could be the worst thing that ever happened to your wife, Jane. Let me introduce your wife, Jane Kenyon, the wonderful poet who is with us as well. And, Jane, can I ask you what your reaction was when you read that passage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) If all goes well, as it were, I will by inches recover the morning glow, the coffee, work on poems and work on prose, walking the dog, love with Jane and the continual or recurrent dread exa"}
{"id": "624642482", "date": "2018-06-29", "guest": "Donald Hall", "title": "Remembering Former Poet Laureate Donald Hall", "question_index": 1, "text": "I'd like to ask you to read a poem, and this is a poem about your husband after surgery. And the poem is called \"Chrysanthemums.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had to agree with it. It really is the worst thing that could happen to me. We're extremely close, both as human beings and as writers. We share so many of the same joys and difficulties. We'r"}
{"id": "624642482", "date": "2018-06-29", "guest": "Donald Hall", "title": "Remembering Former Poet Laureate Donald Hall", "question_index": 2, "text": "When you write a poem that's about Don or, Don, when you write a poem that has to do with Jane, do you show it to each other right away?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. This one is about the first round we had before he had metastases to the liver. So \"Chrysanthemums.\" (Reading) The doctor averted his eyes while the diagnosis fell on us as though the picture o"}
{"id": "624642482", "date": "2018-06-29", "guest": "Donald Hall", "title": "Remembering Former Poet Laureate Donald Hall", "question_index": 3, "text": "Even the poems about each other?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not right away, but we always work together on poems."}
{"id": "624642482", "date": "2018-06-29", "guest": "Donald Hall", "title": "Remembering Former Poet Laureate Donald Hall", "question_index": 4, "text": "And then, Don, did you work on that poem at all?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. Yes. We also work with other friends. Each of us has our own committee, you might say. And we work very closely with other friends. But we do indeed work on each other's poems. And there are "}
{"id": "624642482", "date": "2018-06-29", "guest": "Donald Hall", "title": "Remembering Former Poet Laureate Donald Hall", "question_index": 5, "text": "Is there ever any friction between the two of you of who has ownership over a certain experience that you both shared, you know, and who has more of the right to write about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can't remember. I mean, almost always, I have something to say. It's famous in our house that Jane will show me a poem and I'll say, this is going to be good. And Jane will say going to be, eh (ph)?"}
{"id": "624642482", "date": "2018-06-29", "guest": "Donald Hall", "title": "Remembering Former Poet Laureate Donald Hall", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I remember being with a bunch of poets years and years ago back at Ann Arbor. Jane was one of them. And somebody said something terrific, you know, a good phrase, just an adjective, a noun or somethin"}
{"id": "624642482", "date": "2018-06-29", "guest": "Donald Hall", "title": "Remembering Former Poet Laureate Donald Hall", "question_index": 7, "text": "I really like that poem. And I particularly...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "about how she represented herself. And she thought about it a minute. She said yes. If you can call it an unfinished poem, you can print it. Well, it's a pretty good unfinished poem, and it's the last"}
{"id": "624642482", "date": "2018-06-29", "guest": "Donald Hall", "title": "Remembering Former Poet Laureate Donald Hall", "question_index": 8, "text": "...Like the image of the dry cleaning as it swung and gleamed on hangers in the cars of the prosperous.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "624642482", "date": "2018-06-29", "guest": "Donald Hall", "title": "Remembering Former Poet Laureate Donald Hall", "question_index": 9, "text": "This poem was written in the third person. She's not saying I. she's saying she.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "in - sometime in March or February - maybe early April."}
{"id": "624642482", "date": "2018-06-29", "guest": "Donald Hall", "title": "Remembering Former Poet Laureate Donald Hall", "question_index": 10, "text": "Did she often write about herself in the third person like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "624642482", "date": "2018-06-29", "guest": "Donald Hall", "title": "Remembering Former Poet Laureate Donald Hall", "question_index": 11, "text": "We talked - you, Jane Kenyon and myself - on FRESH AIR a couple of years ago. It was in September of 1993. And at the time, you were in remission from liver cancer. Things were looking pretty good. And, you know, we were talking a lot about how - what it was like for Jane to take care of you. Had you always assumed that you would out - that she would outlive you?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1996 interview with Donald Hall, the poet laureate who died last weekend at age 89. In this interview from 1996, she was speaking to him after his wife, po"}
{"id": "624642482", "date": "2018-06-29", "guest": "Donald Hall", "title": "Remembering Former Poet Laureate Donald Hall", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, it's interesting 'cause you were her college teacher. That's how you met.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "the worst thing that could happen to Jane. And she agreed. But then, of course, her death has been the worst thing that could happen to me. But I'm saying this because I want to say something else tha"}
{"id": "624642482", "date": "2018-06-29", "guest": "Donald Hall", "title": "Remembering Former Poet Laureate Donald Hall", "question_index": 13, "text": "Let's start with the poem \"Barber.\" Feel free to introduce this in any way.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Donald Hall speaking to Terry Gross in 1996. When they spoke again in 2002, he was still writing about his late wife, the poet Jane Kenyon. By then, he had written two collections of poems related to "}
{"id": "624642482", "date": "2018-06-29", "guest": "Donald Hall", "title": "Remembering Former Poet Laureate Donald Hall", "question_index": 14, "text": "Donald Hall, are you surprised at what moments actually stick in your memory and what moments you remember enough to use them as starting points for poems?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep. This poem \"Barber\" is one that took place - the scene took place not long before Jane's death but when we still had some hope that she might live. And we were getting rid of some of the chemother"}
{"id": "624642482", "date": "2018-06-29", "guest": "Donald Hall", "title": "Remembering Former Poet Laureate Donald Hall", "question_index": 15, "text": "And why did this moment become a poem?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess I'm surprised. I - generally they occur and reoccur and reoccur until I can no longer ignore them. And I get to the table and begin sketching out something about them. It's the recurrence that"}
{"id": "624642482", "date": "2018-06-29", "guest": "Donald Hall", "title": "Remembering Former Poet Laureate Donald Hall", "question_index": 16, "text": "Donald Hall, I'd like you to read another poem from your new book \"The Painted Bed,\" also a poem about your late wife, the poet Jane Kenyon. And this one was called \"Sweater.\" Perhaps before you read it, you could just tell us something about the moment...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's 2002 interview with former U.S. poet laureate Donald Hall. He died last weekend at age 89. His wife, Jane Kenyon, w"}
{"id": "624642482", "date": "2018-06-29", "guest": "Donald Hall", "title": "Remembering Former Poet Laureate Donald Hall", "question_index": 17, "text": "...That inspired this poem.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "624642482", "date": "2018-06-29", "guest": "Donald Hall", "title": "Remembering Former Poet Laureate Donald Hall", "question_index": 18, "text": "When I read that poem, it made me think about a few things. One is that sense of like a moment frozen when somebody dies, that the whole landscape they left is just kind of frozen in place. And then you, the living, have to decide if you're going to change it at all or how long you're going to leave it as a kind of living monument to them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it took me a year before I could gather her clothes and send them off. And I write about that a little bit here. After I thought that I had picked up all her clothes, I kept finding more and mor"}
{"id": "624642482", "date": "2018-06-29", "guest": "Donald Hall", "title": "Remembering Former Poet Laureate Donald Hall", "question_index": 19, "text": "How did you know that you were ready to give away the clothes or collect the poetry and manuscripts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know. Yeah."}
{"id": "624642482", "date": "2018-06-29", "guest": "Donald Hall", "title": "Remembering Former Poet Laureate Donald Hall", "question_index": 20, "text": "I'd like you to read another poem from your new collection, \"The Painted Bed.\" And this is called \"Ardor.\" Would you introduce it for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For upwards of a year, I thought and thought about her clothes. Every time I would look at the back of the door to the bathroom and there was her bathrobe and perhaps a night shirt and so on, I would "}
{"id": "624642482", "date": "2018-06-29", "guest": "Donald Hall", "title": "Remembering Former Poet Laureate Donald Hall", "question_index": 21, "text": "Donald Hall, I just particularly liked that line - she recedes into the granite museum of Jane Kenyon, 1947 to 1995.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I'll be happy to. \"Ardor\" is a poem that I wrote or began - what is it? - a year and a half, almost two years after she died. If anything, things got a bit worse. It seemed hard to imagine that t"}
{"id": "624642482", "date": "2018-06-29", "guest": "Donald Hall", "title": "Remembering Former Poet Laureate Donald Hall", "question_index": 22, "text": "Can you say anything...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "624642482", "date": "2018-06-29", "guest": "Donald Hall", "title": "Remembering Former Poet Laureate Donald Hall", "question_index": 23, "text": "Yeah. Go ahead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was true that I..."}
{"id": "624642482", "date": "2018-06-29", "guest": "Donald Hall", "title": "Remembering Former Poet Laureate Donald Hall", "question_index": 24, "text": "You know, this poem is about her receding and her memory receding, do you remember her as she was before she was sick or when she was sick?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Could no longer say you as I did in earlier poems after her death. She was now she and her, just part of the measure of receding that I speak of. And as she recedes into the granite monument, there"}
{"id": "624642482", "date": "2018-06-29", "guest": "Donald Hall", "title": "Remembering Former Poet Laureate Donald Hall", "question_index": 25, "text": "One of the lines in that poem, \"Ardor,\" is when I make love now, something is awry - the implication being that you've had relationships subsequent to your late wife.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, for so long, I could only remember her when she was sick. It was terrible. My dreams and my daydreams were of the - first, they were of the last 11 days when we knew she would die. And then it was"}
{"id": "624642482", "date": "2018-06-29", "guest": "Donald Hall", "title": "Remembering Former Poet Laureate Donald Hall", "question_index": 26, "text": "And it's like a reality that's eluded to within these poems about grief. But it's like when I read this book, I just think of you as a man who experiences loss. And I have to keep saying to myself too there's more to your life. You know, that your life goes on. It isn't totally frozen in grief.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right, yes."}
{"id": "624642482", "date": "2018-06-29", "guest": "Donald Hall", "title": "Remembering Former Poet Laureate Donald Hall", "question_index": 27, "text": "Did writing poems of mourning for your wife and then ending that cycle coincide with being able to have relationships with other women afterwards?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, one thing that this book has made clear to me is the distinction between the embodiment of the poems, that part of your life, and then the present life that has continued after the poems are"}
{"id": "624642482", "date": "2018-06-29", "guest": "Donald Hall", "title": "Remembering Former Poet Laureate Donald Hall", "question_index": 28, "text": "Right. There's a final poem I'd like you to read, and it's the poem that concludes your book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was, I think, a steady process in both directions. Finally, I have been able to feel love. I did some dating. I had relationships earlier. But probably I had to move along past the place of the poe"}
{"id": "624642482", "date": "2018-06-29", "guest": "Donald Hall", "title": "Remembering Former Poet Laureate Donald Hall", "question_index": 29, "text": "And the poem is called \"Affirmation.\" Would you talk about this before you read it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "624642482", "date": "2018-06-29", "guest": "Donald Hall", "title": "Remembering Former Poet Laureate Donald Hall", "question_index": 30, "text": "At the end there, when you say, let's affirm that it is fitting and delicious to lose everything - I was wondering if you meant that as a kind of Zen moment or as a kind of bitter irony.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I will. Yes, yes. This is the poem that ends \"The Painted Bed.\" And it may end - I hope, I guess, that it ends the series of feelings that \"The Painted Bed\" embodies. And it's a possible feeling - and"}
{"id": "624642482", "date": "2018-06-29", "guest": "Donald Hall", "title": "Remembering Former Poet Laureate Donald Hall", "question_index": 31, "text": "Well, let me ask you to read a short passage from your recent New Yorker article \"Out The Window.\"", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're remembering former poet laureate Donald Hall, who died last weekend at the age of 89. The last time Terry Gross spoke with poet Donald Hall was in 2012. By that time, it had b"}
{"id": "624642482", "date": "2018-06-29", "guest": "Donald Hall", "title": "Remembering Former Poet Laureate Donald Hall", "question_index": 32, "text": "So - now, you said before that your attitude has been really cheerful in spite of, like, diminishing physical abilities. And, you know, like, one way of dealing with diminishing physical abilities or illness is to get, like, really angry with your body. And apparently, you don't feel that way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. After a life of loving the old, by natural law, I turned old myself. Decades followed each other. Thirty was terrifying. Forty I never noticed because of a drunk. Fifty was the best with a total "}
{"id": "624642482", "date": "2018-06-29", "guest": "Donald Hall", "title": "Remembering Former Poet Laureate Donald Hall", "question_index": 33, "text": "Now, you mention in this article that you're not writing poetry anymore. You're writing prose. Why is that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not really, no. No. I lament it - the disappearances, but I can't feel angry about it. It's natural. I am probably older at 83 than some people are at 90 - physically older. But as long as I can do my"}
{"id": "624642482", "date": "2018-06-29", "guest": "Donald Hall", "title": "Remembering Former Poet Laureate Donald Hall", "question_index": 34, "text": "Do you mean, like, erotic in subject matter or sensual in terms of the language itself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I felt poetry slipping away. And I'm not sure why. It was palpable. And I've always felt that poetry was particularly erotic, more than prose was."}
{"id": "624642482", "date": "2018-06-29", "guest": "Donald Hall", "title": "Remembering Former Poet Laureate Donald Hall", "question_index": 35, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In terms of the language itself."}
{"id": "624642482", "date": "2018-06-29", "guest": "Donald Hall", "title": "Remembering Former Poet Laureate Donald Hall", "question_index": 36, "text": "So what do you think about the idea of your books outliving you? Does that give you comfort?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I say that you read poems not with your eyes and not with your ears but with your mouth. You taste it. This part of poetry which is essential to me seems to have diminished gradually until finally I r"}
{"id": "624642482", "date": "2018-06-29", "guest": "Donald Hall", "title": "Remembering Former Poet Laureate Donald Hall", "question_index": 37, "text": "That's true, isn't it? Yeah, you'll never know.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, if it gave me - I can't say it does. I have hope, but I do not have anything like conviction or knowledge that they will. I have been alive too long among too many writers whose names I have see"}
{"id": "624642482", "date": "2018-06-29", "guest": "Donald Hall", "title": "Remembering Former Poet Laureate Donald Hall", "question_index": 38, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just forget about it."}
{"id": "624642482", "date": "2018-06-29", "guest": "Donald Hall", "title": "Remembering Former Poet Laureate Donald Hall", "question_index": 39, "text": "Donald Hall, thank you so much for talking with us again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just write as well as you can, and don't speculate about whether you will be Chaucer or Shakespeare."}
{"id": "624642482", "date": "2018-06-29", "guest": "Donald Hall", "title": "Remembering Former Poet Laureate Donald Hall", "question_index": 40, "text": "Yes, it's been a long time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. It's very good to talk with you again after many years."}
{"id": "624642482", "date": "2018-06-29", "guest": "Donald Hall", "title": "Remembering Former Poet Laureate Donald Hall", "question_index": 41, "text": "It's good to catch up. So thank you, and I'll look forward to more of your writing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. It's very good to talk with you again after many years."}
{"id": "624642482", "date": "2018-06-29", "guest": "Donald Hall", "title": "Remembering Former Poet Laureate Donald Hall", "question_index": 42, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I hope so."}
{"id": "624642482", "date": "2018-06-29", "guest": "Donald Hall", "title": "Remembering Former Poet Laureate Donald Hall", "question_index": 43, "text": "Bye-bye.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Bye-bye."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest Boots Riley wrote and directed the new movie \"Sorry To Bother You.\" It's a social political satire starring Lakeith Stanfield, one of the stars of \"Get Out\" and the TV series \"Atlanta.\" This is Boots Riley's first film, but he's had a long career as a rapper with his group The Coup, a self-described revolutionary music collective. Their music is on the soundtrack of the film. Riley grew up the son of political activists who moved from Chicago to Oakland when he was 6. His grandmother ran the Oakland Ensemble Theater. \"Sorry To Bother You\" is set in Oakland. It takes aim at corporations that underpay or otherwise exploit workers. It's also a story about race, relationships and conscience. When the movie begins, Lakeith Stanfield's character is broke and living in his uncle's garage. He talks his way into a telemarketing job, but everyone he cold-calls hangs up on him. An older, more experienced telemarketer played by Danny Glover offers some advice. Use your white voice.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 1, "text": "That scene's from Boots Riley's new film. Boots Riley, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As character) Hey, Mr. Kramer. This is Langston from Regal View. I didn't catch you at the wrong time, did I?"}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 2, "text": "Whose voice was that that we heard as Danny Glover's white voice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hey. Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there's a rumor that that's Steve Buscemi."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 4, "text": "That makes sense. I can hear that. It's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But it definitely is not. But it's not."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 5, "text": "It's not him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But it's not him, actually."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 6, "text": "I didn't know about the Wikipedia rumor.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No. I'm just saying that's a rumor. And someone wrote it on Wikipedia. And that's what people get for reading Wikipedia as fact. But, no, it was just our engineer. He did a scratch take. And we li"}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 7, "text": "No. No, I thought...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I thought that that's why you were asking that."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 8, "text": "No, because I didn't know. I knew that Patton Oswalt did one of the voiceovers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 9, "text": "I don't want to give away spoilers in the film. So I'm going to ask you to do your brief synopsis of the film without things that you don't want the audience who hasn't seen it to know.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So David - Yeah, David Cross does Lakeith Stanfield's voice, and Patton Oswald does Omari Hardwick's voice. So yeah."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well done.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, OK. This is an absurdist, dark comedy with magical realism and science fiction inspired by the world of telemarketing. It's called \"Sorry To Bother You.\" In it, Lakeith Stanfield plays Cassius G"}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 11, "text": ". So you actually worked as a telemarketer for a while. So you put on a voice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, OK. This is an absurdist, dark comedy with magical realism and science fiction inspired by the world of telemarketing. It's called \"Sorry To Bother You.\" In it, Lakeith Stanfield plays Cassius G"}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Were you? Why were you so good?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was actually really good at telemarketing."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 13, "text": "Keep going.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Willingness to use my creativity for evil."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 14, "text": "I like the way you shot the opening telemarketing scenes where Lakeith Stanfield's character is calling people up. And visually, what happens is, like, his desk and him sitting behind basically crashes into their home, into the person he's calling, into their home as a kind of metaphor for how intrusive the call is. And he's interrupting people's lives. He's interrupting, like, a couple having sex. He's interrupting a woman whose husband has, like, stage 4 cancer. And he comes on and says, sorry to bother you, you know, and goes into his pitch. How did you come up with that visual image? Is that how it felt like when you were doing telemarketing - that you were literally crashing into somebody's home uninvited?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, for instance - I mean, the last time I did telemarketing, it was actually telefundraising, which is ostensibly better than regular telemarketing. So we were calling from the Bay Area to Orange Cou"}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 15, "text": "So you're also a longtime rapper with your group The Coup. And before there was the movie \"Sorry To Bother You,\" The Coup released an album with that title. What's the relationship between the album and the movie?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, definitely, it felt intrusive. And the whole situation is awkward. And what I tried to do in this movie is, one, give the audience the same emotional feeling that the character was supposed to b"}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 16, "text": "So I wish we could play music from the soundtrack of \"Sorry To Bother You.\" But since it's not going to be released until later in July, I thought we'd hear a track from the album \"Sorry To Bother You\" which came out in - what'd you say? 2012?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I finished writing the script. I got to the end the first time in 2012. And I needed a way to get a buzz going about the script because I didn't know anyone in the film world. So I made an album that "}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "'12."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 18, "text": "So this is a song that I think provides a similar energy to the song that you used on the soundtrack at the beginning of the movie \"Sorry To Bother You.\" And it's called \"The Magic Clap.\" You want to say a few words about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 19, "text": "OK. So let's hear \"The Magic Clap\" from the 2012 album \"Sorry To Bother You.\" And this is The Coup. And you'll hear my guest Boots Riley, who wrote and directed the new film \"Sorry To Bother You.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And as far as that energy, I'd like to - you know, I tried to go the intellectual route and say that I needed this visceral energy for this or that. But also, we're a performing band. And we nee"}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 20, "text": "That's music from the 2012 album by The Coup, \"Sorry To Bother You.\" And Boots Riley, who is the producer and rapper in The Coup, has now made a film called \"Sorry To Bother You.\" We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Come on, kids. Gather around. Listen up. The magic clap. M-A-G-I-C C-L-A-P. Let's go. M-A-G-I-C C-L-A-P. Let's do it. Clap, the magic clap. Clap, the magic clap. (Singing) It's like a hotwir"}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is Boots Riley, and he wrote and directed the new movie satire \"Sorry To Bother You.\" You became a rapper. You were in the music world before you were in the film world. So I think you always knew you wanted to make movies. How did you end up being in the music world first?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Come on, kids. Gather around. Listen up. The magic clap. M-A-G-I-C C-L-A-P. Let's go. M-A-G-I-C C-L-A-P. Let's do it. Clap, the magic clap. Clap, the magic clap. (Singing) It's like a hotwir"}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 22, "text": "OK. So I have to ask this", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was at film school in San Francisco State, and at that time, the school was more - I found it to be more focused on experimental film and documentary. You know, I was interested in narrative and thi"}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 23, "text": "- when you were in high school, you wrote, like, a rap version, rap lyrics, for the songs from \"West Side Story.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was at film school in San Francisco State, and at that time, the school was more - I found it to be more focused on experimental film and documentary. You know, I was interested in narrative and thi"}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Oh, oh, wow. OK. As a fan of \"West Side Story,\" I must ask you to tell us about that and to ask you please to maybe do some of the lyrics.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I wrote the play as well."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Related to theater, your grandmother ran the Oakland Ensemble Theater. Did she inspire you to want to do theater or to perform?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm very old, so I don't know how I'd remember something from 1987, '86 that I only did once or twice, so - but I can guarantee you just imagine something really corny. And the first raps I ever"}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 26, "text": "So you met Danny Glover through your grandmother.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think as a kid that was addicted to TV, she maybe thought that that was a way to get me away from the TV, to say, well, you could do what they're doing there. And so it was acting. I would be "}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 27, "text": "So did he remember you when you asked him to have a brief role in your film?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually I met - you know, that's how I met him the first time, but him and my father have known each other since 1968. They were part of the San Francisco State strike together, which created the fir"}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 28, "text": "Oh, so he didn't have a chance to forget you", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I've known him so..."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 29, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I've known him so..."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 30, "text": "That's great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's a family friend, yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 31, "text": "And with their son's screenplays.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's a family friend. But he was the last person to sign on, I will say that. And that's because to him I was his friend's son with a script. And so - and I'm sure so many people approach him with scr"}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 32, "text": "So give us a sense from, like, when you started performing. What else was happening in the rap world when you entered it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah. So - but he even though he was the last one to sign on, he's probably the most enthusiastic about it. I've - he sat through six screenings and is always laughing the loudest at the movie."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 33, "text": "So before you made your new movie, your first feature film, you were in a lot of music videos with your group, The Coup. Did you have a hand in directing the music videos? Because you wanted to be a filmmaker.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well - so our lyrics were seen as political. And I say seen as political because they were. However, I think that all of this stuff is political. Everything we talk about is political. And only the th"}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 34, "text": "Did the music videos that your band was in help prepare you at all for making your new movie, \"Sorry To Bother You?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So at first, we were on a big label. You know, that was my thing. I was like, I went to film school. The label would say, OK, if you direct the videos since you don't have experience, you know, here's"}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 35, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well I'll tell you what - I told investors that they did."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 36, "text": "My guest is Boots Riley. He wrote and directed the new satirical film \"Sorry To Bother You.\" He also fronts the hip-hop band The Coup. His music is used in the film. After a break, we'll talk about what went through his mind as the band's tour bus rolled off a cliff. And he'll tell us about growing up the son of activists. And Kevin Whitehead will review a new release of a previously lost 1963 Coltrane studio session with his quartet. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But it's a different art form. And so there were all sorts of things that I just was worried about that I didn't know. Like, OK, if you have a scene and there's 12 extras going up and down the street,"}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 37, "text": "This is FRESH AIR I'm Terry Gross, back with Boots Riley, who wrote and directed the new film \"Sorry To Bother You.\" It's a social political satire about power and race, focusing on the story of a telemarketer played by Lakeith Stanfield, who is exploited by the corporation he works for. Riley also fronts the hip-hop band The Coup, whose lyrics often condemn capitalism and the misuse of power with a satirical edge and catchy beats. Let me ask you about something else, a very different kind of incident in your career with The Coup. In 2006, you were in a tour bus accident with the other members of the group. And the van, or whatever you were driving in, flipped over and caught on fire. Were you or your bandmates injured?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) Economics is the symphony of hunger and theft. Mortar shells often echo out the cashing of checks. In geography class, it\u2019s borders, mountains and rivers, but they will never show the line b"}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 38, "text": "Oh, gosh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Our - no one died, but Silk E, who sings with us, she suffered three broken ribs and her lungs punctured in a couple places. We were also in the bus with another group of musicians who were tour"}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 39, "text": "How did you get out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And the bus caught on fire and ended up exploding. So..."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 40, "text": "Wow. I'm just trying to think of you going down a hilly path, like you and your - a rocky path. You and your bandmates with somebody having two broken legs and somebody having like three broken ribs - that must've been hard.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it got stuck on a rock, and we were basically sideways. And so people had to hang off and come down. And we were on - we ended up having to traverse up this rocky hill to get away from the bus. "}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 41, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's something that doesn't affect you until a little bit after because - right then - you're just trying to make sure everybody's safe. Everybody gets out of..."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 42, "text": "What about you? Were you injured?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Harm's way."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 43, "text": "Do you think you were having a premonition?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wasn't. I was going to be in a part of the bus that nobody actually was in. But had I been in that part of the bus, I would've been locked in. And instead, I didn't go to that part of the bus becaus"}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 44, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Then it happened. I don't really believe in that sort of thing but maybe I - yeah. I'm always paranoid. So..."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 45, "text": "So did that make you think about how life can change in an instant?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know, I probably did that on the way here, too."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 46, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, the trip down took - I don't know - a couple seconds. And it was enough time for me to be mad at the driver and then think about whether or not I was going to die. And I decided I was going "}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 47, "text": "So you thought you were going to die even though you weren't injured?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I want to try to be as present as possible."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 48, "text": "Oh, as it was - oh, oh, oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I did. No, this was as the..."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 49, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Bus was going down - as we were careening down. And people are flying..."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 50, "text": "Wow. So you're very political as a person. Your music is political. The film has a lot of political messages in it. Your father was very political as well. Did...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Around me, and I'm holding on. And I have no idea - you know, it's the middle of the night. I have no idea what awaits us. Had it been 10 seconds before, it would've been a hundred-foot drop."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 51, "text": "That he was a civil rights activist.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What do you mean by political? Who isn't political?"}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 52, "text": "He worked with the panthers. I mean, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, like, are there people that aren't?"}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 53, "text": "...Literally involved in...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 54, "text": "Activist. I should say political activist.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I agree with you. I'm just kind of..."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 55, "text": "Yeah, I understand.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's just a pet peeve what people call it. Political..."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 56, "text": "But your father was an activist. And there's even...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, but yeah."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 57, "text": "...A photo of him with Malcolm X and Floyd McKissick who'd been the head of CORE, the Congress on Racial Equality - one of the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 58, "text": "...Big civil rights groups from the '60s.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 59, "text": "What does that photo mean to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 60, "text": "So your haircut looks like you could be in the panthers in the '60s.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it represents his legacy of being involved with civil rights movements and fighting for change. He joined the NAACP at the age of 12 and, like, started the Durham, N.C., chapter of the NAACP a"}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 61, "text": "This kind of big afro with kind of like early '70s big sideburns. Are you trying to make a statement with your hair about your connection to that period?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it represents his legacy of being involved with civil rights movements and fighting for change. He joined the NAACP at the age of 12 and, like, started the Durham, N.C., chapter of the NAACP a"}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 62, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think when I first got it - I got sideburns because I - you know, in my early 20s, I looked like I was 12."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 63, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sideburns helped out with that. And after that, it's just 'cause, you know, I got used to it. And actually times when I wanted to change my hairstyle - I knew that so many people knew us from music vi"}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 64, "text": "Now we're getting to the real answer. Why don't we take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Boots Riley. He wrote and directed the new movie \"Sorry To Bother You.\" He's also a rapper, and his band the Coup has several albums that they've recorded since 1993. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I do think, obviously, I like how it looks 'cause I would change it real quick if I didn't. It makes my nose smaller."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 65, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Boots Riley. He wrote and directed and did the music for the new movie \"Sorry To Bother You,\" which is a satire that has to do with telemarketing and then goes to all kinds of political and social places after that. And the name of his band is the Coup, and they've been recording since 1993. So your father went to law school when you were how old?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I do think, obviously, I like how it looks 'cause I would change it real quick if I didn't. It makes my nose smaller."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 66, "text": "And this was like a second career for him, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He graduated law school when I was 9. So..."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 67, "text": "It's like his day jobs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he - I mean, he had many. So one of them being a bus driver. The other being a full-time organizer for radical organization. And he - what else? He drove the train at the San Francisco Zoo - lot"}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 68, "text": "So when he went back to college to study law, did that give you hope that - like you can change your life? Like, you can...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 69, "text": "...You can reinvent yourself or make a big change.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I..."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 70, "text": "You're too young to - yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I was young enough to where I didn't think about it like that. I mean..."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 71, "text": "Was it hard for him to keep the lights on while he was in school?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As you're a kid, like, you're - you've got food in the refrigerator. The lights are on, and hopefully you shield your children - if you can - from even the worry that the lights might get cut off, rig"}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 72, "text": "So I think it's fair to say you consider yourself a revolutionary.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know that we were at various times on food stamps, and yeah. So - but, you know, it's weird to talk about it because then it seems like I'm telling a hardship story. Well, maybe economically it is. "}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 73, "text": "So I wonder if you vote, like in presidential elections.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 74, "text": "So it sounds like you vote in local elections but not necessarily in presidential elections.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've voted for local things. I think that my - what my takeaway is that sometimes when people vote, they use that as their be-all, end-all. And the reason why is because we promote it as the be-all, e"}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 75, "text": "And you seem to feel like whoever's in office - it doesn't make that big a difference, but do you perceive...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 76, "text": "Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, that's not what I'm..."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 77, "text": "Do you perceive a difference between Obama and Trump when it comes to issues that directly affect people's lives, like reproductive issues, LGBTQ rights, marriage equality, climate change, the environment, voting rights, protecting our voting system?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's not what I'm saying."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 78, "text": "But does it exclude voting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just said that, yeah, there's a difference. My problem is is that if we don't want to keep going further to the right - so, for instance, right now what's going to happen is a candidate can come up "}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 79, "text": "Does that have to exclude voting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...No matter who's in office."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 80, "text": "You're very anticapitalist. And now you're in the movie industry. You stand the possibility of having a movie career and actually making a lot of money. What have you promised yourself about how you'd handle money and fame if you get it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the reason why as a campaign - it doesn't have to exclude a personal thing. But as a campaign - someone, you know, campaigning for someone, it does exclude that."}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 81, "text": "Boots Riley, it was great to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I have so many plans of things that I need to do, projects and things that - some are art-related. Some are, you know, having to do with other grassroots campaigns that - a lot of that. And I've"}
{"id": "625321886", "date": "2018-07-02", "guest": "Danny Glover", "title": "Boots Riley Mines His Experiences As A Telemarketer In 'Sorry To Bother You'", "question_index": 82, "text": "Boots Riley wrote and directed the new film \"Sorry To Bother You\" and fronts the hip-hop band The Coup, which did music for the film. After we take a short break, Kevin Whitehead will review a new release of a previously lost 1963 John Coltrane studio session. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "625628160", "date": "2018-07-03", "guest": "Michael Mcfaul", "title": "Former Ambassador To Russia Looks Ahead To Trump's Summit With Putin", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Michael McFaul, can't predict what the outcome will be of the summit between President Trump and President Putin planned for July 16, but he has some thoughts about what to expect from Putin. McFaul was in the room during meetings between Putin and President Obama as well as meetings between Putin and Vice President Biden and Secretary of State Kerry. McFaul was Obama's ambassador to Russia from 2012 to 2014 and was the architect of Reset, the plan to reset the post-Cold War relationship and pursue common goals with Russia. From 2009 to 2012, he served as special assistant to President Obama on the National Security Council. When he was serving in Russia, he was the target of fake news campaigns. Putin blamed him and then-Secretary of State Hillary Clinton for the protests surrounding Putin's election to his third term as president. McFaul is now banned from returning to Russia. He's now a professor at Stanford University, where he directs the Freeman Spogli Institute for International Studies. He's written a new memoir called \"From Cold War To Hot Peace: An American Ambassador In Putin's Russia.\" Michael McFaul, welcome back to FRESH AIR. So I just want to start with the fact that the U.S. Ambassador to Estonia resigned on Friday. And Estonia is one of the former Soviet bloc countries that got admitted to NATO after the fall of the Soviet Union. And he tweeted - the ambassador who stepped down tweeted, (reading) having served under six presidents and 11 secretaries of state, I never really thought it would reach that point for me. I truly believe and have said many times, national interests don't change from one administration to the next. For the president to say the EU was set up to take advantage of the U.S., to attack our piggy bank or that NATO is as bad as NAFTA is not only factually wrong but proves to me that it's time to go. It takes no courage on my part to do so, and I can't hold a candle to my friends who have honorably resigned without the benefit of the full pension I have waiting for me. As a former ambassador, have you asked yourself if you would resign if you were serving in a diplomatic position under Trump and what you think the right thing is to do as someone who strongly disagrees with Trump policies when you're serving in his administration - try to uphold the values you believe in or resign in protest?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "625628160", "date": "2018-07-03", "guest": "Michael Mcfaul", "title": "Former Ambassador To Russia Looks Ahead To Trump's Summit With Putin", "question_index": 1, "text": "So President Trump is scheduled to meet with President Putin July 16. You've met with Putin. You were in the room twice when Putin met with President Obama. You were there about four other times when Putin was with the vice president and national security adviser. So what is it like to negotiate with Putin?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first of all, I deeply admire the ambassador for making that statement and deciding to resign. That is a powerful idea. I know lots of people in the State Department and the U.S. government that"}
{"id": "625628160", "date": "2018-07-03", "guest": "Michael Mcfaul", "title": "Former Ambassador To Russia Looks Ahead To Trump's Summit With Putin", "question_index": 2, "text": "Thinking that maybe the vice president didn't know whether we had or had not agreed to that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the first thing to remember about Vladimir Putin is he's been president for a long time, so he's been dealing with other heads of state for a long time. He's very experienced. He is now on his f"}
{"id": "625628160", "date": "2018-07-03", "guest": "Michael Mcfaul", "title": "Former Ambassador To Russia Looks Ahead To Trump's Summit With Putin", "question_index": 3, "text": "My impression from your book is that you found the lecture that you and President Obama got from Putin really annoying", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct, and just kind of putting him on the spot and seeing how he responds. And to that end, remember, you know, the - President Putin knows these issues really well. And he knows his own interpreta"}
{"id": "625628160", "date": "2018-07-03", "guest": "Michael Mcfaul", "title": "Former Ambassador To Russia Looks Ahead To Trump's Summit With Putin", "question_index": 4, "text": ". I mean, you called it a lecture, not a discussion.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct, and just kind of putting him on the spot and seeing how he responds. And to that end, remember, you know, the - President Putin knows these issues really well. And he knows his own interpreta"}
{"id": "625628160", "date": "2018-07-03", "guest": "Michael Mcfaul", "title": "Former Ambassador To Russia Looks Ahead To Trump's Summit With Putin", "question_index": 5, "text": "He had been...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, Los Cabos especially was very tense because we had very - two different interpretations of how to deal with the Arab Spring more generally and Syria in particular. President Obama said t"}
{"id": "625628160", "date": "2018-07-03", "guest": "Michael Mcfaul", "title": "Former Ambassador To Russia Looks Ahead To Trump's Summit With Putin", "question_index": 6, "text": "...Prime minister.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...First meeting."}
{"id": "625628160", "date": "2018-07-03", "guest": "Michael Mcfaul", "title": "Former Ambassador To Russia Looks Ahead To Trump's Summit With Putin", "question_index": 7, "text": "So you're saying that Putin is good at having psychological background on the person he's negotiating with and using that to his advantage. Do you have an example of that from meetings you were at?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He had been prime minister and deliberately did not deal with foreign policy. We dealt with President Medvedev before then. And Obama said, look, we did not start the Arab Spring. We had no intention "}
{"id": "625628160", "date": "2018-07-03", "guest": "Michael Mcfaul", "title": "Former Ambassador To Russia Looks Ahead To Trump's Summit With Putin", "question_index": 8, "text": "Why don't we take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more? If you're just joining us, my guest is Michael McFaul who served as President Obama's ambassador to Russia from 2012 to 2014 and was on Obama's National Security Council before that. He's written a new memoir called \"From Cold War To Hot Peace.\" We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the most famous one - it was not a meeting I was at, but when he met with Chancellor Merkel several years ago. Everybody knows that she has a fear of dogs, and he deliberately had his big dog - "}
{"id": "625628160", "date": "2018-07-03", "guest": "Michael Mcfaul", "title": "Former Ambassador To Russia Looks Ahead To Trump's Summit With Putin", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is Michael McFaul, who served as President Trump's ambassador to Russia from 2012 to 2014. He's written a memoir called \"From Cold War To Hot Peace.\" And we're talking about his experiences and how they relate to what he's seeing now with the Trump administration and President Trump himself in their positions on Russia. I'd like your impressions of what you think the best and worst outcomes of the Putin-Trump summit might be. Let's start with the best outcomes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the most famous one - it was not a meeting I was at, but when he met with Chancellor Merkel several years ago. Everybody knows that she has a fear of dogs, and he deliberately had his big dog - "}
{"id": "625628160", "date": "2018-07-03", "guest": "Michael Mcfaul", "title": "Former Ambassador To Russia Looks Ahead To Trump's Summit With Putin", "question_index": 10, "text": "So when you separate the president from the policy of his own administration, who are you talking about and what is the policy when you describe, quote, \"the administration?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The best outcome, in my opinion, would be for President Trump to meet with Putin, to not use any flowery language about what a great leader he is and what a great meeting they have. Just put that all "}
{"id": "625628160", "date": "2018-07-03", "guest": "Michael Mcfaul", "title": "Former Ambassador To Russia Looks Ahead To Trump's Summit With Putin", "question_index": 11, "text": "And just for people who have forgotten, Russia annexed Crimea by force, which is why we're not recognizing it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, just over the weekend, his national security adviser, John Bolton, went on several television programs and said several times it is United States policy not to recognize Crimea as part of Russia"}
{"id": "625628160", "date": "2018-07-03", "guest": "Michael Mcfaul", "title": "Former Ambassador To Russia Looks Ahead To Trump's Summit With Putin", "question_index": 12, "text": "OK. So what do you think the worst outcomes of the summit might be?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct. They annexed by force. It's a part of Ukraine, recognized as part of Ukraine by everybody, including by Vladimir Putin, by the way, for several decades until he took that action of annexation"}
{"id": "625628160", "date": "2018-07-03", "guest": "Michael Mcfaul", "title": "Former Ambassador To Russia Looks Ahead To Trump's Summit With Putin", "question_index": 13, "text": "And you're considered to be the architect of reset, which was the relationship that the Obama administration started with Russia. The idea was to put the Cold War relationship behind us and work together with Russia to find common interests and then work toward those interests together. So for the reset working paper, it was stated improved relations with Russia should not be the goal of U.S. policy but a possible strategy for achieving American security and economic objectives in dealing with Russia.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The worst outcome, minimum to maximum, so the first bad outcome is for President Trump to repeat what he did in his Singapore summit with Kim Jong Un and just go out of his way to lavish praise on Put"}
{"id": "625628160", "date": "2018-07-03", "guest": "Michael Mcfaul", "title": "Former Ambassador To Russia Looks Ahead To Trump's Summit With Putin", "question_index": 14, "text": "So you write that respect was very important to Vladimir Putin and to Russia. So Obama, you know, acknowledged the, you know, Russians' help in the defeat of Hitler. Why is respect so important, and what does that mean? What translates to respect?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry, for quoting that paper because I had to argue about that hundreds of times with people that analyzed the reset. But, you know, historical documents are historical documents. It was a"}
{"id": "625628160", "date": "2018-07-03", "guest": "Michael Mcfaul", "title": "Former Ambassador To Russia Looks Ahead To Trump's Summit With Putin", "question_index": 15, "text": "So Trump likes to flatter people he is negotiating with. Is flattery and respect the same thing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, after the collapse of the Soviet Union, that was a very humiliating event for leaders like Putin. And then throughout the '90s, there's a theory propagated by the Kremlin that we were just pushi"}
{"id": "625628160", "date": "2018-07-03", "guest": "Michael Mcfaul", "title": "Former Ambassador To Russia Looks Ahead To Trump's Summit With Putin", "question_index": 16, "text": "Are you concerned about further Russian interference in our next election, in the mid-term elections?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I don't think so. I think flattery is cheap talk and, most certainly, Vladimir Putin understands that. By the way, Vladimir Putin's pretty good at flattery, too, so President Trump should be ready"}
{"id": "625628160", "date": "2018-07-03", "guest": "Michael Mcfaul", "title": "Former Ambassador To Russia Looks Ahead To Trump's Summit With Putin", "question_index": 17, "text": "My guest is Michael McFaul, author of the new memoir \"From Cold War To Hot Peace: An American Ambassador In Putin's Russia.\" After we take a short break, we'll talk about the fake news campaigns against him while he was serving as America's ambassador in Russia during the Obama administration. And Maureen Corrigan will review Deborah Levy's new memoir about getting divorced at age 50. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes and no. Do they have the capacity to intervene again? The answer to that is yes. We have not taken what I think are kind of elementary new policies about resilience with our cybersecurity to stop "}
{"id": "625628160", "date": "2018-07-03", "guest": "Michael Mcfaul", "title": "Former Ambassador To Russia Looks Ahead To Trump's Summit With Putin", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross, back with Michael McFaul. We're talking about President Trump, Russia and McFaul's experiences in Russia. He served as President Obama's ambassador to Russia from 2012 to 2014 and was the architect of reset, the plan to reset the post-Cold War relationship and pursue common goals with Russia. From 2009 to 2012, McFaul was special assistant to President Obama on the National Security Council. He's written a new memoir called \"From Cold War To Hot Peace: An American Ambassador In Putin's Russia.\" When he was serving in Russia, he was the target of fake news campaigns. Let's talk about some things that happened to you. Vladimir Putin personally blamed you and then Secretary of State Hillary Clinton for the protests surrounding his election to his third term as president. And so you were really attacked by fake news...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes and no. Do they have the capacity to intervene again? The answer to that is yes. We have not taken what I think are kind of elementary new policies about resilience with our cybersecurity to stop "}
{"id": "625628160", "date": "2018-07-03", "guest": "Michael Mcfaul", "title": "Former Ambassador To Russia Looks Ahead To Trump's Summit With Putin", "question_index": 19, "text": "...After those protests. And talk a little bit about the fake Twitter account that was set up in your name because it strikes me as a very clever approach that they took.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "625628160", "date": "2018-07-03", "guest": "Michael Mcfaul", "title": "Former Ambassador To Russia Looks Ahead To Trump's Summit With Putin", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah. I mean, long before Americans had thought about fake news, we were experiencing it in real time in 2012. And it was unlike anything previous embassies had encountered. You know, I had some"}
{"id": "625628160", "date": "2018-07-03", "guest": "Michael Mcfaul", "title": "Former Ambassador To Russia Looks Ahead To Trump's Summit With Putin", "question_index": 21, "text": "Right because, like, a capital I and a small L look almost the same - especially in small print on Twitter.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, you know, we - because of my relationship with Google - actually personal relationship, we actually got him to take it down from YouTube for a while. But then it appeared everywhere. And if you g"}
{"id": "625628160", "date": "2018-07-03", "guest": "Michael Mcfaul", "title": "Former Ambassador To Russia Looks Ahead To Trump's Summit With Putin", "question_index": 22, "text": "So what damage do you think that that fake Twitter account created?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. And, you know, the president's spokesperson was even denouncing me publicly until we figured that out. So you know, that was a daily occurrence. I mean - and videos, you know, suggesting that"}
{"id": "625628160", "date": "2018-07-03", "guest": "Michael Mcfaul", "title": "Former Ambassador To Russia Looks Ahead To Trump's Summit With Putin", "question_index": 23, "text": "Did Putin personally attack you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It just undermined my, you know, legitimacy in the eyes of many Russians. And remember. It's against the backdrop of a very sophisticated strategy against Obama, the United States of America, Secretar"}
{"id": "625628160", "date": "2018-07-03", "guest": "Michael Mcfaul", "title": "Former Ambassador To Russia Looks Ahead To Trump's Summit With Putin", "question_index": 24, "text": "Yeah because your arrival coincided with the election - with the campaign.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "His channels that he controls did every day - even before my first day in office at the embassy, by the way, Terry. The night before I showed up - it was Martin Luther King weekend, so we had an extra"}
{"id": "625628160", "date": "2018-07-03", "guest": "Michael Mcfaul", "title": "Former Ambassador To Russia Looks Ahead To Trump's Summit With Putin", "question_index": 25, "text": "You know, in writing about fake news and manipulation and scare tactics that have been used in Russia against people who it wants to discredit, you write about the use of honey traps - the use of beautiful young women who, I think, offer large sums of money and/or maybe sex as well. And, of course, I'm wondering if this was ever a technique used to bait you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. And you don't get to choose those events, yeah."}
{"id": "625628160", "date": "2018-07-03", "guest": "Michael Mcfaul", "title": "Former Ambassador To Russia Looks Ahead To Trump's Summit With Putin", "question_index": 26, "text": "No.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To me? No, not me."}
{"id": "625628160", "date": "2018-07-03", "guest": "Michael Mcfaul", "title": "Former Ambassador To Russia Looks Ahead To Trump's Summit With Putin", "question_index": 27, "text": "It would have been a good story, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To the best of my knowledge."}
{"id": "625628160", "date": "2018-07-03", "guest": "Michael Mcfaul", "title": "Former Ambassador To Russia Looks Ahead To Trump's Summit With Putin", "question_index": 28, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Michael McFaul. And he served on President Obama's National Security Council and then as ambassador to Russia. He's now written a new memoir which is called \"From Cold War To Hot Peace.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I'll tell you. It is a technique used and, you know, encountered in intelligence operations. That's true. With me, I was monitored. Everything I did in Russia was monitored - every phone call I ma"}
{"id": "625628160", "date": "2018-07-03", "guest": "Michael Mcfaul", "title": "Former Ambassador To Russia Looks Ahead To Trump's Summit With Putin", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Michael McFaul. He served as President Obama's special assistant for Russian affairs and as ambassador to Russia. And he's now the director of the Freeman Spogli Institute for International Studies at Stanford University where he's also a professor. He's written a new memoir about his time in Russia - his many years in Russia 'cause he was a student in Russia long before he served the Obama administration there. And his memoir is called \"From Cold War To Hot Peace.\" One of the things you had to face when you were America's ambassador to Russia was death threats against you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I'll tell you. It is a technique used and, you know, encountered in intelligence operations. That's true. With me, I was monitored. Everything I did in Russia was monitored - every phone call I ma"}
{"id": "625628160", "date": "2018-07-03", "guest": "Michael Mcfaul", "title": "Former Ambassador To Russia Looks Ahead To Trump's Summit With Putin", "question_index": 30, "text": "And this was largely because Vladimir Putin thought that you helped orchestrate the protests against him when he was elected. How did you deal with those death threats in, you know, a foreign country where a lot of people believed what state media was saying about you, which was that, like, you were the enemy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "625628160", "date": "2018-07-03", "guest": "Michael Mcfaul", "title": "Former Ambassador To Russia Looks Ahead To Trump's Summit With Putin", "question_index": 31, "text": "Did any of those threats carry over when you moved back to the United States after you left your term as ambassador?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't want to joke about it. It was not pleasant, and, you know, I'm sure that Vladimir Putin didn't say put out a death threat against Ambassador McFaul. But what he does do is create these permiss"}
{"id": "625628160", "date": "2018-07-03", "guest": "Michael Mcfaul", "title": "Former Ambassador To Russia Looks Ahead To Trump's Summit With Putin", "question_index": 32, "text": "Well, you said that you thought Putin created an environment where it was OK to go after people who were perceived as enemies of the state and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there definitely have been instances of monitoring that we have discovered from the Russians, both on my - you know, my email accounts. And that continues to happen, and we continue to battle it"}
{"id": "625628160", "date": "2018-07-03", "guest": "Michael Mcfaul", "title": "Former Ambassador To Russia Looks Ahead To Trump's Summit With Putin", "question_index": 33, "text": "...Threaten them. Do you fear that something similar is happening in the United States when Trump, you know, declares who his enemies are?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "625628160", "date": "2018-07-03", "guest": "Michael Mcfaul", "title": "Former Ambassador To Russia Looks Ahead To Trump's Summit With Putin", "question_index": 34, "text": "As a longtime Russian expert and a former ambassador to Russia, which part of the Mueller investigation into possible collaboration between the Trump campaign and Russia interests you the most?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do. I just think it leads to a kind of discourse that is polarizing, filled with hate. I mean, I see it on social media every night. Follow me, folks - @McFaul. You can witness it yourself. We're - "}
{"id": "625628160", "date": "2018-07-03", "guest": "Michael Mcfaul", "title": "Former Ambassador To Russia Looks Ahead To Trump's Summit With Putin", "question_index": 35, "text": "Michael McFaul, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The money. So what I know, having followed and written about Russia for a long time and Vladimir Putin for a long time - by the way, I first met him in the spring of 1991. So I've known Vladimir Putin"}
{"id": "625628160", "date": "2018-07-03", "guest": "Michael Mcfaul", "title": "Former Ambassador To Russia Looks Ahead To Trump's Summit With Putin", "question_index": 36, "text": "Michael McFaul's new memoir is called \"From Cold War To Hot Peace: An American Ambassador In Putin's Russia.\" He's now a professor at Stanford University, where he directs the Freeman Spogli Institute for International Studies. After we take a short break, Maureen Corrigan will review Deborah Levy's new memoir about midlife, called, \"The Cost Of Living.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "625635424", "date": "2018-07-04", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates July 4 With The Late Flat-Picking Guitar Player Doc Watson", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. On this Fourth of July, we're going to hear some great American music. We're going deep in our archive for the show to feature Doc Watson, who was one of America's most revered folk musicians. In his prime, he was considered the finest flatpicker in the U.S. Folklorist Ralph Rinzler, who discovered him, said Watson is singlehandedly responsible for the extraordinary increase in acoustic flatpicking and fingerpicking guitar performance. His flatpicking style has no precedent in earlier country music. Watson was born in North Carolina's Blue Ridge Mountains. When he was about 1 year old, an eye infection left him blind. For about 15 years, he toured and performed with his son, Merle. In 1985, Merle was killed in a tractor accident. Watson organized an annual music festival in his honor in North Carolina known as MerleFest. Doc Watson died in 2012 at the age of 89. We're going to hear the interview I recorded with Doc Watson in 1988, but we'll start with a couple of songs from the concert he recorded on our show in 1989. He brought with him guitarist Jack Lawrence, who was his longtime music partner.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "625635424", "date": "2018-07-04", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates July 4 With The Late Flat-Picking Guitar Player Doc Watson", "question_index": 1, "text": "I want to welcome both of you to FRESH AIR. And, Doc Watson, can I ask you to introduce the first song?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "625635424", "date": "2018-07-04", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates July 4 With The Late Flat-Picking Guitar Player Doc Watson", "question_index": 2, "text": "That's Doc Watson singing and playing guitar along with guitarist Jack Lawrence, recorded in our studio in 1989. We'll hear more of this FRESH AIR concert later. The year before that concert, Watson joined us for an interview. We talked first about how being blind affected his life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I worked in town, and I worked on the farm, but there was no way to suit 'em. They were both so dad-burn mean to be, somebody ought to shoot 'em. I'm tired of looking at my mother-in-law. I'"}
{"id": "625635424", "date": "2018-07-04", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates July 4 With The Late Flat-Picking Guitar Player Doc Watson", "question_index": 3, "text": "I've read you say that if you weren't blind, you don't think you would have ever gone on the road, and I wasn't sure how to interpret that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I worked in town, and I worked on the farm, but there was no way to suit 'em. They were both so dad-burn mean to be, somebody ought to shoot 'em. I'm tired of looking at my mother-in-law. I'"}
{"id": "625635424", "date": "2018-07-04", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates July 4 With The Late Flat-Picking Guitar Player Doc Watson", "question_index": 4, "text": "Didn't your father make the first banjo that you played?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wouldn't have because of exactly what I was talking about. I would rather have a job where I could go home at night. I would've played music, of course. There's no doubt about that. Because I think "}
{"id": "625635424", "date": "2018-07-04", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates July 4 With The Late Flat-Picking Guitar Player Doc Watson", "question_index": 5, "text": "And what was it like for you the first time you got the banjo into your hands? What did you do with it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He did. That was in the summer of 1934. Made my first little stringed instrument. I had a harmonica before that. But Dad showed me a few of the old-time frailing or clawhammer banjo-style tunes."}
{"id": "625635424", "date": "2018-07-04", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates July 4 With The Late Flat-Picking Guitar Player Doc Watson", "question_index": 6, "text": "So you were really pretty self-taught?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "625635424", "date": "2018-07-04", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates July 4 With The Late Flat-Picking Guitar Player Doc Watson", "question_index": 7, "text": "How did you get your first guitar?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For the most part, yes, I was. The guitar, absolutely, I was self-taught."}
{"id": "625635424", "date": "2018-07-04", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates July 4 With The Late Flat-Picking Guitar Player Doc Watson", "question_index": 8, "text": "Considering that your early instruments were homemade banjos and a mail-order guitar, did you ever get really obsessed with the quality of instruments that you were playing? Some musicians just play what they have, and others get really obsessed with having instruments that are just right for them or custom-made for them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "By pulling the cross-cut saw. One spring, my dad told my youngest brother and I, boys, if you'll cut all those dead chestnut - small, dead chestnuts down along the road and around the edge of the fiel"}
{"id": "625635424", "date": "2018-07-04", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates July 4 With The Late Flat-Picking Guitar Player Doc Watson", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was fairly contented with what I had. I never had had my hands on a good guitar back in those days and didn't for years. The first good guitar that I got hold of that I would have considered much be"}
{"id": "625635424", "date": "2018-07-04", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates July 4 With The Late Flat-Picking Guitar Player Doc Watson", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, I guess it's almost good in a way to get used to something like that 'cause it makes it seem so much easier when you get a good guitar.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was really hard to play."}
{"id": "625635424", "date": "2018-07-04", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates July 4 With The Late Flat-Picking Guitar Player Doc Watson", "question_index": 11, "text": "It was really during the folk revival that you started to become nationally known. I think you'd been playing dances and, you know, playing...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It really does. And when I got into the folk revival in the '60s, I ran into people who could set a guitar action out to where you could play it. And I came on to another Martin along about that time."}
{"id": "625635424", "date": "2018-07-04", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates July 4 With The Late Flat-Picking Guitar Player Doc Watson", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, see, this really interests me. You were playing rockabilly and an electric guitar...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Played rockabilly music through the '50s. And I played an electric guitar, a Les Paul."}
{"id": "625635424", "date": "2018-07-04", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates July 4 With The Late Flat-Picking Guitar Player Doc Watson", "question_index": 13, "text": "Now, the way I understand it, Ralph Rinzler, who was working at the Smithsonian Institute, came down looking for traditional Southern musicians, came down your way and heard about you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Rockabilly and old pop standards, with an old boy named Jack Williams. Jack had a little group together, and when old heard me pick, he said, buddy, I want you to pick with me."}
{"id": "625635424", "date": "2018-07-04", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates July 4 With The Late Flat-Picking Guitar Player Doc Watson", "question_index": 14, "text": "Now, you had been playing, you know, electric guitar. Did you have to switch over to acoustic in order to make it in the folk revival?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was looking for Clarence Ashley and found him. Clarence Tom Ashley. And I had played music with Tom on a few land sales and a few little shows here and there. And Ralph came over, and when he heard"}
{"id": "625635424", "date": "2018-07-04", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates July 4 With The Late Flat-Picking Guitar Player Doc Watson", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well, I want to play something that was recorded by Ralph Rinzler. I mean, Ralph Rinzler recorded it. You were performing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "?"}
{"id": "625635424", "date": "2018-07-04", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates July 4 With The Late Flat-Picking Guitar Player Doc Watson", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In my living room."}
{"id": "625635424", "date": "2018-07-04", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates July 4 With The Late Flat-Picking Guitar Player Doc Watson", "question_index": 17, "text": "And this is a recording, it was from the early 1960s, and this is \"Every Day Dirt.\" Tell us a little bit about this song before we hear this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In my living room. Yeah."}
{"id": "625635424", "date": "2018-07-04", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates July 4 With The Late Flat-Picking Guitar Player Doc Watson", "question_index": 18, "text": "OK. So from the early 1960s, this is my guest, Doc Watson.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A fellow, David McCarn, was living in a mill town, Gastonia, N.C. And he heard about some recording sessions going on down - I think it was Knoxville, Tenn. And he probably slung his guitar over his b"}
{"id": "625635424", "date": "2018-07-04", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates July 4 With The Late Flat-Picking Guitar Player Doc Watson", "question_index": 19, "text": "Recorded in the early 1960s, that's my guest, Doc Watson. How did you learn how to pick that way? We found out that you were self-taught, but it seems like it would be really hard to teach yourself an intricate style like that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Now, John come home all in a wonder. He rattled at the door just like thunder. Who is that, Mr. Hannelly cried? It's my husband. You must hide. Then John sat down by the fireside weepin', an"}
{"id": "625635424", "date": "2018-07-04", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates July 4 With The Late Flat-Picking Guitar Player Doc Watson", "question_index": 20, "text": "Once you put down the electric guitar for the acoustic guitar, how often did you pick up the electric guitar again?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, by listening to the old records, you could hear - after you got familiarized with the instrument - you could hear what strings they were hitting on and what chord they were playing in just by th"}
{"id": "625635424", "date": "2018-07-04", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates July 4 With The Late Flat-Picking Guitar Player Doc Watson", "question_index": 21, "text": "Do you miss it at all?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very seldom. After I got into folk music and into the revival and began to play little jobs at coffeehouses, I seldom, if ever, picked up the electric guitar."}
{"id": "625635424", "date": "2018-07-04", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates July 4 With The Late Flat-Picking Guitar Player Doc Watson", "question_index": 22, "text": "Doc Watson, recorded in 1988. He died in 2012 at the age of 89. We'll hear more of his interview and his 1989 FRESH AIR concert in the second half of our show as we continue this July Fourth edition. Here's another song from that concert. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I love a good electric guitar. That one wasn't all that good. It was a second. Actually, it was a Les Paul Gibson. But it really was a second. The neck on it wasn't all that good. I thought it was"}
{"id": "625635424", "date": "2018-07-04", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates July 4 With The Late Flat-Picking Guitar Player Doc Watson", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. On this July Fourth, we've gone into our archive for some great American music. We're listening back to a 1988 interview with and a 1989 performance by the late bluegrass and folk guitarist and singer, Doc Watson. Watson grew up in the Blue Ridge Mountains of North Carolina, and in his prime was considered the greatest guitar flatpicker in the U.S. Let's get back to the concert he recorded in our studio in 1989. He was backed by guitarist Jack Lawrence.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd like to do a little tune here that I used to hear around in (unintelligible). It's the blues that everybody's had at one time or another. It's called, \"Stranger Blues.\" Two, three, four. (Singing)"}
{"id": "625635424", "date": "2018-07-04", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates July 4 With The Late Flat-Picking Guitar Player Doc Watson", "question_index": 24, "text": "That's guitarist and singer Doc Watson and guitarist Jack Lawrence, recorded in our studio in 1989. As you can hear, we've gone deep into our archive for this July Fourth edition of our show. Let's get back to our 1988 interview with Doc Watson.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Listen here, Janey, dear. I've come to say farewell. Sweetheart, you know I love you so much more than there's words to tell. But I must go away today. Honey, won't you come with me? 'Cause "}
{"id": "625635424", "date": "2018-07-04", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates July 4 With The Late Flat-Picking Guitar Player Doc Watson", "question_index": 25, "text": "Once you went on the road during the folk revival, now you weren't used to traveling. There must have been a lot you had to learn how to do. Did you have a business manager to help you out with bookings?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Listen here, Janey, dear. I've come to say farewell. Sweetheart, you know I love you so much more than there's words to tell. But I must go away today. Honey, won't you come with me? 'Cause "}
{"id": "625635424", "date": "2018-07-04", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates July 4 With The Late Flat-Picking Guitar Player Doc Watson", "question_index": 26, "text": "Oh, yeah. Sure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ralph Rinzler did the bookings between he and Manny Greenhill at Folklore Productions. But Ralph traveled a lot with me. And if he didn't know when I would go to New York to work in the city, I came b"}
{"id": "625635424", "date": "2018-07-04", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates July 4 With The Late Flat-Picking Guitar Player Doc Watson", "question_index": 27, "text": "Yeah, I could see what you mean.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As the old-timers used to say, a hayseed for sure. But the scary part finally and the adventure finally got over with. And the road, well, it became a job."}
{"id": "625635424", "date": "2018-07-04", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates July 4 With The Late Flat-Picking Guitar Player Doc Watson", "question_index": 28, "text": "You know, I think there's always clubs who - or maybe not many. But there's always some clubs willing to take advantage of a performer. And I would guess that someone who was blind was a more likely target if they didn't have people who were watching out for them. Did you ever have any problems with that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The music, music, a good audience - I love."}
{"id": "625635424", "date": "2018-07-04", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates July 4 With The Late Flat-Picking Guitar Player Doc Watson", "question_index": 29, "text": "You mentioned your son, Merle. Did you teach him how to play guitar?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But we were in a few places where they treated you like pieces of used equipment. And that was the end of playing there. We just didn't do it again. That's the best thing you can do - you know, is not"}
{"id": "625635424", "date": "2018-07-04", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates July 4 With The Late Flat-Picking Guitar Player Doc Watson", "question_index": 30, "text": "So he never felt that he had to work hard to differentiate his style from your style?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Merle didn't show any interest in the guitar until he was 15. I was on my first concert tour - solo concert tour that spring. And about midways of it, Ralph called me and said, Doc, I've got some "}
{"id": "625635424", "date": "2018-07-04", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates July 4 With The Late Flat-Picking Guitar Player Doc Watson", "question_index": 31, "text": "Yeah, I've noticed with a lot of musicians - that they meet all these people who have memorized their licks, and they have no idea what they played", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And when we did the recording - I'll say this about it, and then we'll move on. When we did the recording, the producer, Jack Clement, came running through and said, boys, don't touch it. It was the f"}
{"id": "625635424", "date": "2018-07-04", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates July 4 With The Late Flat-Picking Guitar Player Doc Watson", "question_index": 32, "text": ". They were just being spontaneous. And everybody else goes and memorizes it. When your son Merle died, was it hard for you to go back on the road afterwards?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And when we did the recording - I'll say this about it, and then we'll move on. When we did the recording, the producer, Jack Clement, came running through and said, boys, don't touch it. It was the f"}
{"id": "625635424", "date": "2018-07-04", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates July 4 With The Late Flat-Picking Guitar Player Doc Watson", "question_index": 33, "text": "I guess that dream kind of gave you permission in a way to do it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If you'll pardon a little intimacy here, I'll tell you something that happened. Or I wouldn't have. Between the time he was killed and his funeral, I dreamed I was in a dark desert. And it was so hot."}
{"id": "625635424", "date": "2018-07-04", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates July 4 With The Late Flat-Picking Guitar Player Doc Watson", "question_index": 34, "text": "You know, we've been - I've been using the word virtuoso today. And I would guess that one of the problems of being a virtuoso is that people want to hear you play fast all the time - to hear you really, you know, do the most difficult stuff that you can do.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I believe it was godsend. I think the dream was."}
{"id": "625635424", "date": "2018-07-04", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates July 4 With The Late Flat-Picking Guitar Player Doc Watson", "question_index": 35, "text": "What do you mean by putting you on a pedestal?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah, a lot of people do get into that. But usually if you have a big audience, you can't really take requests from the - when you're on stage. So you just program your set. And you season it wi"}
{"id": "625635424", "date": "2018-07-04", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates July 4 With The Late Flat-Picking Guitar Player Doc Watson", "question_index": 36, "text": "Can I ask you a question that I hope you don't mind me asking? And if you do, don't answer it", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they act like you're God or something, you know? Lord, I'm just people like everybody else. I do play the guitar. But I had to work awful hard at it to learn what I know."}
{"id": "625635424", "date": "2018-07-04", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates July 4 With The Late Flat-Picking Guitar Player Doc Watson", "question_index": 37, "text": ". A lot of performers who are blind wear dark glasses when they perform. And that's something you've never done.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they act like you're God or something, you know? Lord, I'm just people like everybody else. I do play the guitar. But I had to work awful hard at it to learn what I know."}
{"id": "625635424", "date": "2018-07-04", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates July 4 With The Late Flat-Picking Guitar Player Doc Watson", "question_index": 38, "text": "Mmm hmm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know why I always hated - used to have a good bit of light perception. It doesn't bother me now because most of it's gone. But the reflection off sunglasses - you know how they come in on the "}
{"id": "625635424", "date": "2018-07-04", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates July 4 With The Late Flat-Picking Guitar Player Doc Watson", "question_index": 39, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I wouldn't do it. And I just never have worn them. I don't know if the blind that wear them their eyes look really abnormal or what. I don't know. I never did care, Terry, to wear them - just didn"}
{"id": "625635424", "date": "2018-07-04", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates July 4 With The Late Flat-Picking Guitar Player Doc Watson", "question_index": 40, "text": "One last thing - you know, there's a really nice recording from the early '60s of you and your wife singing together. Does she still sing? Do you ever sing together?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No particular reason except what I told you."}
{"id": "625635424", "date": "2018-07-04", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates July 4 With The Late Flat-Picking Guitar Player Doc Watson", "question_index": 41, "text": "Yeah, I can understand. But I regret we're out of time. I want to thank you so much for coming, for talking with us about music. And thank you very much. And I hope you have a good continuing year on the road.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She doesn't sing anymore or play anymore. The tragedy of losing Merle, Terry, has just about undone her. She does the office work there at home. But she's not Rosa Lee anymore. Bless her little heart."}
{"id": "625635424", "date": "2018-07-04", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates July 4 With The Late Flat-Picking Guitar Player Doc Watson", "question_index": 42, "text": "Doc Watson recorded in 1988. Here's two more songs from the concert he recorded on our show with guitarist Jack Lawrence in 1989.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'll guarantee you. It's been a pleasure."}
{"id": "625635424", "date": "2018-07-04", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates July 4 With The Late Flat-Picking Guitar Player Doc Watson", "question_index": 43, "text": "We're featuring a live concert today with Doc Watson and Jack Lawrence. And it looks like we'll have time for one more song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I remember as a boy how in wonderment and joy I'd watch the trains as they'd go by. And the whistle's lonesome sound you could hear for miles around as they rolled across that Greenville Tre"}
{"id": "625635424", "date": "2018-07-04", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates July 4 With The Late Flat-Picking Guitar Player Doc Watson", "question_index": 44, "text": "Guitarist and singer Doc Watson along with guitarist Jack Lawrence recorded in our studio in 1989. Doc Watson died in 2012 at the age of 89. So today we did something we don't typically do, which is to go way back in our archive for a holiday show. We have some great interviews and performances from many years ago that we'd love to share with you on holidays. Let us know what you think of that idea. You can tweet us @nprfreshair. That's all one word. After we take a short break, rock critic Ken Tucker will review new recordings he likes to listen to with the volume up. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Jack, while we're at it there, that instrumental sounded pretty good. Let's do a little bit of something that ain't quite country here to kind of wind it down with - something called \"Bye Bye Blues.\" "}
{"id": "626117743", "date": "2018-07-05", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Supreme Court Reporter: 'The Politics Of The First Amendment Have Completely Flipped'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Adam Liptak, is the Supreme Court correspondent for The New York Times. We're going to take a look back at the court's term that ended last week. Liptak says it was a bruising term marked by division, disruption and an extraordinary string of 5-4 conservative victories. On the term's final day, Justice Elena Kagan, in a dissenting opinion on a decision that delivered a blow to unions, accused conservative justices of weaponizing the First Amendment. The term ended with Justice Anthony Kennedy, the court's swing vote, announcing his retirement. Liptak, in an article written with Maggie Haberman, reported that the White House had launched a quiet campaign to encourage Kennedy to retire. Adam Liptak, welcome back to FRESH AIR. So all the potential nominees for Supreme Court justice seem to have been vetted by The Federalist Society or The Heritage Foundation. So what assumptions do you think we can make about any of the potential nominees whose names will cross the president's desk?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "626117743", "date": "2018-07-05", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Supreme Court Reporter: 'The Politics Of The First Amendment Have Completely Flipped'", "question_index": 1, "text": "You coauthored an article with Maggie Haberman about the White House's quiet campaign to create a Supreme Court opening. And you wrote - their goal was to assure Justice Kennedy that his judicial legacy would be in good hands if he retired at the end of the term, which of course he did. How did the Trump administration convey that to Kennedy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, they will all be reliable conservatives. They will - any one of them who makes it onto the court will vote with the court's conservative wing, and that will transform the Supreme Court because we'"}
{"id": "626117743", "date": "2018-07-05", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Supreme Court Reporter: 'The Politics Of The First Amendment Have Completely Flipped'", "question_index": 2, "text": "Justice Kennedy's son worked for 10 years at Deutsche Bank and became the bank's global head of real estate capital markets. And Kennedy's son worked closely with Donald Trump when Trump was a real estate developer and Deutsche Bank became Trump's most important lender. So are there implications of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is an administration that's been criticized for being chaotic and for not being very good on its legislative agenda. Its judicial agenda has been brilliantly executed and encouraging Justice Kenn"}
{"id": "626117743", "date": "2018-07-05", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Supreme Court Reporter: 'The Politics Of The First Amendment Have Completely Flipped'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Justice Kennedy had been the center of the court and the swing vote, but you're right that this year he was more conservative. Can you give us some examples of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, a lot of people on the left are quick to see some sort of conspiracy there. I don't actually track the logic of that. I think it's evidence that these were families that were comfortable wit"}
{"id": "626117743", "date": "2018-07-05", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Supreme Court Reporter: 'The Politics Of The First Amendment Have Completely Flipped'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Do you think he shifted to the right or was it just these individual decisions that he didn't side with the liberal wing on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this year was a collapse for Justice Kennedy's alliance with his usual sometimes allies on the liberal wing of the court. So there are four liberal members of the court. And most terms, in 5-4 d"}
{"id": "626117743", "date": "2018-07-05", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Supreme Court Reporter: 'The Politics Of The First Amendment Have Completely Flipped'", "question_index": 5, "text": "So you wrote a fascinating article in The Times headlined \"How Conservatives Weaponized The First Amendment,\" and that phrase is borrowed from Justice Elena Kagan's dissenting decision in the Supreme Court case involving public unions. Before we get to that case, give us a little overview of how it's become the right wing of the court that has been emphasizing the First Amendment in its decisions.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, to some extent, it's happenstance. To some extent, it's the particular cases that got to the court. But the numbers are really telling. We're talking about 14 decisions in which the fi"}
{"id": "626117743", "date": "2018-07-05", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Supreme Court Reporter: 'The Politics Of The First Amendment Have Completely Flipped'", "question_index": 6, "text": "So let's look at one of those examples. Let's look at the example from which Elena Kagan wrote the dissenting decision using the expression that conservatives weaponized the First Amendment. And that was the case pertaining to public unions. So would you describe the case for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, Terry, the politics of free speech have over the past decades completely flipped. It used to be liberals who pressed First Amendment arguments. They used to press them in cases involving political"}
{"id": "626117743", "date": "2018-07-05", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Supreme Court Reporter: 'The Politics Of The First Amendment Have Completely Flipped'", "question_index": 7, "text": "So the previous law - the law that was overturned by the Supreme Court - said that workers who benefited from collective bargaining had to pay the union dues that cover collective bargaining but they wouldn't have to pay the part of the union dues that covered, you know, political speech.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. So about 20 states have laws that say if you're a government worker and you want to work for the government, you're going to be represented by a public union. And you don't have to pay for their"}
{"id": "626117743", "date": "2018-07-05", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Supreme Court Reporter: 'The Politics Of The First Amendment Have Completely Flipped'", "question_index": 8, "text": "And so now they can just like not pay anything but still benefit from collective bargaining. And the fear that unions have includes the fear that people will say, well, I don't have to pay. I'll benefit from the collective bargaining anyway, so I'm going to save money and not pay my union dues.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "626117743", "date": "2018-07-05", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Supreme Court Reporter: 'The Politics Of The First Amendment Have Completely Flipped'", "question_index": 9, "text": "So let me quote Justice Kagan again in her dissenting decision. She said, \"this decision weaponizes the First Amendment in a way that unleashes judges, now and in the future, to intervene in economic and regulatory policy.\" What is she saying?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. It's what economists call a free-rider problem. The economically rational decision today for someone who used to be a member of a public union is to say, hey, if I can get this for free, why sho"}
{"id": "626117743", "date": "2018-07-05", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Supreme Court Reporter: 'The Politics Of The First Amendment Have Completely Flipped'", "question_index": 10, "text": "I just want to read a couple of other things in her decision here. She said that the justices overruled the previous law because they wanted to. The First Amendment was meant for better things. It was meant not to undermine, but to protect democratic governments, including the role of public-sector unions. And she added - at every stop, black-robed rulers are overriding citizens' choices. What struck me as especially interesting about that is that she's really criticizing judges as a group. I don't know whether she's criticizing just the justices or judges in general for overruling things because they want to and for overriding citizens' choices. Black-robed rulers, that's a strong phrase when you're talking about your fellow justices.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She's saying that this line of decisions gives judges enormous power because almost all human activity involves speech. And if judges are able to say that any kind of regulation - securities regulatio"}
{"id": "626117743", "date": "2018-07-05", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Supreme Court Reporter: 'The Politics Of The First Amendment Have Completely Flipped'", "question_index": 11, "text": "The tool being the First Amendment?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And it's coming from Justice Kagan, who is not a bomb-thrower, who is actually a very strategic thinker who doesn't lightly make these accusations. So for her to get so worked up means that somet"}
{"id": "626117743", "date": "2018-07-05", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Supreme Court Reporter: 'The Politics Of The First Amendment Have Completely Flipped'", "question_index": 12, "text": "So officially, judicial conservatives are supposed to be translating, you know, the Constitution to the letter of the law. And they're supposed to be opposed to judicial activism.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "626117743", "date": "2018-07-05", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Supreme Court Reporter: 'The Politics Of The First Amendment Have Completely Flipped'", "question_index": 13, "text": "The fact that Elena Kagan condemned black-robed rulers overriding citizens' choices, is that also an indication that there is more tension within the Supreme Court? I think you've said in the past that, in spite of conflicting decisions, the justices get along. I'm wondering if that's starting to change.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, in their defense, they would say the First Amendment is an important value. It's an important way to protect citizens from an overreaching government. They would say that the states th"}
{"id": "626117743", "date": "2018-07-05", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Supreme Court Reporter: 'The Politics Of The First Amendment Have Completely Flipped'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Adam Liptak. He's the Supreme Court correspondent for The New York Times. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I share your intuition, Terry. I think this last term was very divisive. They issued a very small number of decisions, but it took them forever to do it. There were many, many separate opinions in thi"}
{"id": "626117743", "date": "2018-07-05", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Supreme Court Reporter: 'The Politics Of The First Amendment Have Completely Flipped'", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Adam Liptak, the Supreme Court correspondent for The New York Times. And we're looking back on this last term of the Supreme Court. So we've been talking about how the First Amendment is being used now by the right wing of the court in its decisions. Another example of that is the decision pertaining to so-called crisis pregnancy centers. Would you describe that decision?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I share your intuition, Terry. I think this last term was very divisive. They issued a very small number of decisions, but it took them forever to do it. There were many, many separate opinions in thi"}
{"id": "626117743", "date": "2018-07-05", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Supreme Court Reporter: 'The Politics Of The First Amendment Have Completely Flipped'", "question_index": 16, "text": "But I think part of this case was predicated on the fact that the California Legislature had found that about 20 of these centers in the state used intentionally deceptive advertising and counseling practices that often misinformed or even intimidated women from making fully informed decisions about their pregnancy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the case involves crisis pregnancy centers, which are religiously-affiliated centers that oppose abortion. And the state of California said that's fine, but we want you also to post a notice that s"}
{"id": "626117743", "date": "2018-07-05", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Supreme Court Reporter: 'The Politics Of The First Amendment Have Completely Flipped'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Justice Breyer, who dissented from the bench, indicating that this was a strongly felt dissent, referred to a 1992 Supreme Court decision upholding a Pennsylvania law. What was that law, and why did he see a contradiction between upholding that law and striking down the law that required these pregnancy centers to disclose the possibility of abortion?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's quite right. And it may be that the right way to address that is through fraud statutes and other regulatory efforts rather than to force them to put up notices. The majority said, listen; if t"}
{"id": "626117743", "date": "2018-07-05", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Supreme Court Reporter: 'The Politics Of The First Amendment Have Completely Flipped'", "question_index": 18, "text": "So just looking back a little bit historically, just, like, in the past few years, like, in the Roberts court, what are some of the other ways that the right wing of the court has used the First Amendment to justify their decisions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there does seem to be a real disconnect between the two. The '92 decision Planned Parenthood v. Casey said that abortion providers do have to provide some kinds of information to women. They can"}
{"id": "626117743", "date": "2018-07-05", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Supreme Court Reporter: 'The Politics Of The First Amendment Have Completely Flipped'", "question_index": 19, "text": "My guest is Adam Liptak, the Supreme Court correspondent for The New York Times. After a break, we'll talk about decisions pertaining to the travel ban and the baker who refused to make a wedding cake for a gay couple. And we'll discuss what this term's decisions say about the direction the Supreme Court is heading in. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, most notably, in the campaign finance area. Citizens United, the 5-4 decision that endorsed unlimited corporate and union spending in candidate elections, was a First Amendment decision. It was "}
{"id": "626117743", "date": "2018-07-05", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Supreme Court Reporter: 'The Politics Of The First Amendment Have Completely Flipped'", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to our interview with Adam Liptak, the Supreme Court correspondent for The New York Times. We're looking at the term that ended last week. So let's look at another big case that the court heard this term, and this was on the president's travel ban - an overview of the case, please.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, most notably, in the campaign finance area. Citizens United, the 5-4 decision that endorsed unlimited corporate and union spending in candidate elections, was a First Amendment decision. It was "}
{"id": "626117743", "date": "2018-07-05", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Supreme Court Reporter: 'The Politics Of The First Amendment Have Completely Flipped'", "question_index": 21, "text": "And Sotomayor's dissent also said, referring to Trump's having retweeted three anti-Muslim videos as president and tweeted that we need a travel ban for certain dangerous countries - she wrote, let the gravity of those statements sink in; most of these words were spoken or written by the current president of the United States. That sounds to me like an unusual statement, too, coming from a justice. Like, she's saying, look; this is what the president said. She's basically saying, like, it's inconceivable a president would say this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. President Trump campaigned, as you recall, Terry, that he wanted to impose a complete and total shutdown on Muslims. And then he gets into office and issues a series of increasingly refined trav"}
{"id": "626117743", "date": "2018-07-05", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Supreme Court Reporter: 'The Politics Of The First Amendment Have Completely Flipped'", "question_index": 22, "text": "But that - you know, it leads me to think that the justices - at least, the liberal justices - are wondering, how do you deal with decisions, how do you deal with ideological divisions in the court when the president is Donald Trump?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So the two sides on the court are actually addressing slightly different questions. The majority would like to think it's making a ruling about the powers of the presidency in general. Justice S"}
{"id": "626117743", "date": "2018-07-05", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Supreme Court Reporter: 'The Politics Of The First Amendment Have Completely Flipped'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Are there cases in which the justices did not come out on ideological, predictable lines?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They're in a tough spot. They're in a tough spot in so many ways. They don't have the votes. They're about to have even less power on the court with the replacement of Justice Kennedy. And they can ei"}
{"id": "626117743", "date": "2018-07-05", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Supreme Court Reporter: 'The Politics Of The First Amendment Have Completely Flipped'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Are there any decisions we haven't talked about that you think are very important but were basically overlooked because other news stories were overpowering it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can think of three, and they're all important, and they all affect sort of the way Americans will go about their lives. One of them effectively struck down a ban on legal sports gambling. That's goi"}
{"id": "626117743", "date": "2018-07-05", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Supreme Court Reporter: 'The Politics Of The First Amendment Have Completely Flipped'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Knowing as little as I know, my impression about that decision was that all the judges - the justices on both sides - were afraid that an actual decision would not be in their favor, so they all decided to punt as opposed to lose the case. Do you think there's any truth to that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there are two decisions that turned out to be nondecisions but could have been enormous, and both of them were very closely followed. In fact, aside from the travel ban case, they were probably "}
{"id": "626117743", "date": "2018-07-05", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Supreme Court Reporter: 'The Politics Of The First Amendment Have Completely Flipped'", "question_index": 26, "text": "And you seem to think that the fact that Kennedy decided to punt on this was a sign that he was preparing to retire. Why do you see that as a sign?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that's a very sophisticated analysis. I think when the court decides not to decide, it's because there are too many balls in play, and no one knows exactly how they're going to come out. It's "}
{"id": "626117743", "date": "2018-07-05", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Supreme Court Reporter: 'The Politics Of The First Amendment Have Completely Flipped'", "question_index": 27, "text": "Now, I think there was a second case that you thought was somewhat overlooked.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was just part of a whole trend of things, where in that case and a pair of cases about partisan gerrymandering, everyone was looking to see, is he finally going to make some of the biggest decision"}
{"id": "626117743", "date": "2018-07-05", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Supreme Court Reporter: 'The Politics Of The First Amendment Have Completely Flipped'", "question_index": 28, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Adam Liptak, Supreme Court correspondent for The New York Times. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I think the two partisan gerrymandering cases had the potential to transform American democracy, and a lot of people were hopeful that the court would finally address the question. Partisan gerry"}
{"id": "626117743", "date": "2018-07-05", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Supreme Court Reporter: 'The Politics Of The First Amendment Have Completely Flipped'", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Adam Liptak who covers the Supreme Court for The New York Times. So this was the first term with Neil Gorsuch on the court. And he was the decisive vote in 15 of the 18 cases decided by a 5-to-4 margin. Give us your analysis of how he performed in this, his first term.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I think the two partisan gerrymandering cases had the potential to transform American democracy, and a lot of people were hopeful that the court would finally address the question. Partisan gerry"}
{"id": "626117743", "date": "2018-07-05", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Supreme Court Reporter: 'The Politics Of The First Amendment Have Completely Flipped'", "question_index": 30, "text": "Yet you say that it's unusual for a junior justice to get major decisions to write. So elaborate on what that says.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He got off to quite a start. So those statistics alone tell you something. And one thing they tell you is that almost every one - if not every one of those cases - would have been decided differently "}
{"id": "626117743", "date": "2018-07-05", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Supreme Court Reporter: 'The Politics Of The First Amendment Have Completely Flipped'", "question_index": 31, "text": "President Obama had nominated Merrick Garland for the Supreme Court. That was blocked by Mitch McConnell who said - no, no, no. It's an election year. Your term's almost over. We have to let the American people decide by voting. And liberals are still furious about how Obama's nominee was blocked. And the Supreme Court would have been so different had Merrick Garland been the nominee and not Neil Gorsuch. And now President Trump gets to choose a second nominee to the court. I can't help but wonder how the liberal wing of the court feels about Garland's nomination having been blocked.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It says that he entered the court as a full partner. The early thinking was - and it was in my early thinking, too - was that he would simply be an ally of the most conservative members of the court, "}
{"id": "626117743", "date": "2018-07-05", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Supreme Court Reporter: 'The Politics Of The First Amendment Have Completely Flipped'", "question_index": 32, "text": "You know, when I wonder about what the Supreme Court justices from the liberal wing think of how Merrick Garland was blocked, I think to - you know, it's the justices' job to rule on, you know, what's legal under the Constitution and what's not. And I wonder, you know, what they think of the techniques that Mitch McConnell used - you know, the rationale that he used to block Obama from choosing a nominee. I mean, that was never even brought to the Judiciary Committee.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So they may or may not have views about whether that was proper, whether that violated any kinds of norms. But there's every reason to think that they are sorely disappointed. Had there been a fifth l"}
{"id": "626117743", "date": "2018-07-05", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Supreme Court Reporter: 'The Politics Of The First Amendment Have Completely Flipped'", "question_index": 33, "text": "So President Trump has stated a lot of things during his presidency that are just factually not true. But whether he believes that or not, whether he's intentionally lying or not, I don't know. But I do know a lot of people believe what he says when he states something that is provably false. Is there any legal way of holding him accountable for that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, listen. It was doubtless political hardball. And there are lots of people who think the tactic was unpleasant and ugly and bruising and bad for the Senate and bad for the nation. But the Constit"}
{"id": "626117743", "date": "2018-07-05", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Supreme Court Reporter: 'The Politics Of The First Amendment Have Completely Flipped'", "question_index": 34, "text": "Because of the ideological divisions within the court and because presidents have so much power to potentially change the court for generations, some people are proposing that there should be term limits on justices. Is that a very radical and perhaps impossible", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The short answer is no. You could imagine a narrow class of cases in which he says something that's both false and harmful to someone's reputation, which would allow that person to sue for libel. And "}
{"id": "626117743", "date": "2018-07-05", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Supreme Court Reporter: 'The Politics Of The First Amendment Have Completely Flipped'", "question_index": 35, "text": "suggestion?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The short answer is no. You could imagine a narrow class of cases in which he says something that's both false and harmful to someone's reputation, which would allow that person to sue for libel. And "}
{"id": "626117743", "date": "2018-07-05", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Supreme Court Reporter: 'The Politics Of The First Amendment Have Completely Flipped'", "question_index": 36, "text": "Does the Constitution say that it's a lifetime appointment?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's the opposite of radical. Every other country in the world has either term limits or a retirement age for justices. And the idea that justices should serve until they're 90, that Justice Kennedy -"}
{"id": "626117743", "date": "2018-07-05", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Supreme Court Reporter: 'The Politics Of The First Amendment Have Completely Flipped'", "question_index": 37, "text": "So what's your summer looking like now that another seat is in play?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Constitution doesn't use the term life tenure. It speaks about good behavior. But everyone understands it to be, unless you're impeached, that you can serve for as long as you wish to."}
{"id": "626117743", "date": "2018-07-05", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Supreme Court Reporter: 'The Politics Of The First Amendment Have Completely Flipped'", "question_index": 38, "text": "Is it an exciting story to cover?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My summer has gotten much more complicated, Terry. I had hoped that - as of last Wednesday, we wrote about the last decision of the term, the last big decision, the travel ban decision - and that I co"}
{"id": "626117743", "date": "2018-07-05", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Supreme Court Reporter: 'The Politics Of The First Amendment Have Completely Flipped'", "question_index": 39, "text": "OK. Adam Liptak, it is always a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a great story. I mean, I really can't overemphasize how different Justice Kennedy's retirement is from just about anybody else's. It's the end of the world as we know it. It's a transformative mo"}
{"id": "626117743", "date": "2018-07-05", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Supreme Court Reporter: 'The Politics Of The First Amendment Have Completely Flipped'", "question_index": 40, "text": "Adam Liptak is the Supreme Court correspondent for The New York Times. After we take a short break, we have a follow-up to our interview with Boots Riley, who wrote and directed the new film satire \"Sorry To Bother You.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's great to be here, Terry."}
{"id": "626376018", "date": "2018-07-06", "guest": "Howard Markel", "title": "How The 'Battling' Kellogg Brothers Revolutionized American Breakfast", "question_index": 0, "text": "Dr. Howard Markel, welcome to FRESH AIR. It's funny, you know, breakfast cereals now are often considered basically sugar-coated vitamin pills because the fortification of vitamins is the nutrition, and the sugar is what gets kids to eat it, but it's not very good for them. But breakfast cereals were originally part of a health craze that Dr. Kellogg created. Why was breakfast such a problem? Like, if you were into health like Dr. John Kellogg was, what were the problems with breakfast as he saw it?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, editor of the website TV Worth Watching, sitting in for Terry Gross. Some of America's today's most popular breakfast cereals, such as Corn Flakes and Rice Kris"}
{"id": "626376018", "date": "2018-07-06", "guest": "Howard Markel", "title": "How The 'Battling' Kellogg Brothers Revolutionized American Breakfast", "question_index": 1, "text": "So it originally didn't have the title of, like, Corn Flakes or Wheat Flakes. What was the original flaked cereal that the Kelloggs invented called?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there were a number of issues. And yes, Corn Flakes, Wheat Flakes, flake cereal in general were invented to be easily digested by those with upset stomachs or what was then called dyspepsia, the"}
{"id": "626376018", "date": "2018-07-06", "guest": "Howard Markel", "title": "How The 'Battling' Kellogg Brothers Revolutionized American Breakfast", "question_index": 2, "text": "Roll out like a dough?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, their first cereal - basically, Dr. Kellogg thought that if you dextrinize starch - what that meant is if you bake a grain for a long period of time at a high temperature, the starch molecules w"}
{"id": "626376018", "date": "2018-07-06", "guest": "Howard Markel", "title": "How The 'Battling' Kellogg Brothers Revolutionized American Breakfast", "question_index": 3, "text": "So these cereals started off as part of a larger health regimen that Dr. Kellog prescribed. You credit him with coming up with the concept of wellness. He ran a sanitarium. So give us an overview of some of the beliefs that he had about wellness that actually became popular.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like a dough, yes. Roll it flat out like a dough because it was basically a boiled - at first wheat dough and then later a corn dough. But Dr. Kellogg was pulled away for surgery or something and Will"}
{"id": "626376018", "date": "2018-07-06", "guest": "Howard Markel", "title": "How The 'Battling' Kellogg Brothers Revolutionized American Breakfast", "question_index": 4, "text": "You say he was very chaste. He was totally abstinent. The way you describe it, he and his wife never even consummated their marriage. They had children, but that was through adoption. They slept in separate bedrooms. It sounds like he never had sex.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Dr. Kellogg called - well, we call it wellness - he called it biologic living. And he was really prescient about this. And don't forget, at the turn of the last century, most doctors were fixate"}
{"id": "626376018", "date": "2018-07-06", "guest": "Howard Markel", "title": "How The 'Battling' Kellogg Brothers Revolutionized American Breakfast", "question_index": 5, "text": "I see your point.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "by the perils of sex."}
{"id": "626376018", "date": "2018-07-06", "guest": "Howard Markel", "title": "How The 'Battling' Kellogg Brothers Revolutionized American Breakfast", "question_index": 6, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Dr. Howard Markel. He's the author of the new book \"The Kelloggs: The Battling Brothers Of Battle Creek.\" He's the director of the Center of the History of Medicine at the University of Michigan, where he's also a professor of pediatrics and communicable diseases. We'll be right back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "626376018", "date": "2018-07-06", "guest": "Howard Markel", "title": "How The 'Battling' Kellogg Brothers Revolutionized American Breakfast", "question_index": 7, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Dr. Howard Markel. He's the author of the new book \"The Kelloggs: The Battling Brothers Of Battle Creek.\" And it's about the Kellogg brothers, one of whom was deep into health. He was a doctor and created a sanitarium where wellness was the thing. And his other brother was basically the marketing genius who popularized the flaked cereals that the brothers co-created like Corn Flakes. And, of course, the other brother, Will Kellogg, created Kellogg's cereals. So another thing that he was in the forefront of was probiotics. He believed that acidophilus...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "626376018", "date": "2018-07-06", "guest": "Howard Markel", "title": "How The 'Battling' Kellogg Brothers Revolutionized American Breakfast", "question_index": 8, "text": "...Which is one of the most common probiotics now, would help you maintain a healthy digestive system. And you describe his, like, basement laboratory in which he studied fecal specimens under the microscope, comparing the fecal specimens of people who took acidophilus with those who didn't. I mean, who else was doing that back in the turn of the century - in the turn of the 20th century?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "626376018", "date": "2018-07-06", "guest": "Howard Markel", "title": "How The 'Battling' Kellogg Brothers Revolutionized American Breakfast", "question_index": 9, "text": "Regularity was an obsession for Dr. Kellogg. And he had a lot of intestinal problems when he was a child.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was a man named Henri Tissier at the Pasteur laboratory in Paris. And Dr. Kellogg often traveled to Europe to learn new techniques and new ideas. You know, it's really funny. He started as a pas"}
{"id": "626376018", "date": "2018-07-06", "guest": "Howard Markel", "title": "How The 'Battling' Kellogg Brothers Revolutionized American Breakfast", "question_index": 10, "text": "He also believed in some things that seem pretty quacky to us now. Now, what are a couple of examples of those?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He did. He did. As a child, he ate very badly. His favorite meal he lectured about was braised oxtail in a greasy, fatty brown gravy. And even in his 70s or 80s, he would talk about those meals loving"}
{"id": "626376018", "date": "2018-07-06", "guest": "Howard Markel", "title": "How The 'Battling' Kellogg Brothers Revolutionized American Breakfast", "question_index": 11, "text": "So again, you know, Dr. Kellogg had some really wonderful, advanced thinking when it comes to health. He also had some really, you know, backwards, bad beliefs. And one of those beliefs was in eugenics. Do you want to describe his position on eugenics?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, let's begin with flake cereal. So they are more easily digested. But we now know that Corn Flakes or any flake cereal has something called a high glycemic index, which means you start digesting "}
{"id": "626376018", "date": "2018-07-06", "guest": "Howard Markel", "title": "How The 'Battling' Kellogg Brothers Revolutionized American Breakfast", "question_index": 12, "text": "So Battle Creek is famous for Kellogg's and for Post, another big breakfast cereal company. But it's also famous as, at the time, the home center, like, the home base for the Seventh-day Adventists. And Dr. Kellogg - John Kellogg - was very close to co-founders of Seventh-day Adventism, Ellen and James White. And they saw him when he was a child as being a possible leader of the church in the future. So what was his relationship with the church?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- to lecture and have symposia on eugenics and euthenics. So it was a negative aspect of John Harvey Kellogg's life and ideology that is truly, truly problematic and disturbing."}
{"id": "626376018", "date": "2018-07-06", "guest": "Howard Markel", "title": "How The 'Battling' Kellogg Brothers Revolutionized American Breakfast", "question_index": 13, "text": "Some famous people, too. Who were some of the famous people who came?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". They like to be healthy, but they don't want somebody telling them to reform. And so they realized that John Harvey could be the head of their health avenue, their health section of the denomination"}
{"id": "626376018", "date": "2018-07-06", "guest": "Howard Markel", "title": "How The 'Battling' Kellogg Brothers Revolutionized American Breakfast", "question_index": 14, "text": "So it's really interesting that Corn Flakes and all of the Kellogg's cereals have a direct connection with the Seventh-day Adventists.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he treated many presidents, including Warren Harding and William Taft. He treated William Jennings Bryan, the Democratic hopeful. He treated Eddie Cantor, the comedian. He treated Johnny Weissmu"}
{"id": "626376018", "date": "2018-07-06", "guest": "Howard Markel", "title": "How The 'Battling' Kellogg Brothers Revolutionized American Breakfast", "question_index": 15, "text": "What were some of the beliefs of Seventh-day Adventists?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's really - because that grain diet was very important to the Adventists. And, of course, Dr. Kellogg found in his study of gastroenterology, which, you know - when you think - if anybody thin"}
{"id": "626376018", "date": "2018-07-06", "guest": "Howard Markel", "title": "How The 'Battling' Kellogg Brothers Revolutionized American Breakfast", "question_index": 16, "text": "And I think they also believe in this constant and ongoing battle between Satan and God and that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they're very similar to what I just described about John Harvey's wellness or biological living program. You were to have a chaste and spiritual life. You were to avoid worry. You were to avoid "}
{"id": "626376018", "date": "2018-07-06", "guest": "Howard Markel", "title": "How The 'Battling' Kellogg Brothers Revolutionized American Breakfast", "question_index": 17, "text": "...You really had to be careful to stay on the right side.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "626376018", "date": "2018-07-06", "guest": "Howard Markel", "title": "How The 'Battling' Kellogg Brothers Revolutionized American Breakfast", "question_index": 18, "text": "But it seems like Dr. Kellogg's work in trying to keep people more healthy and discover new things went against the idea that any day now the whole world can end and is likely to end. So what's the point?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And so I'm skipping over the most important - Adventism - so they believed in the imminent end of the world and the second coming of Jesus Christ. And that was taught very strictly. And young chi"}
{"id": "626376018", "date": "2018-07-06", "guest": "Howard Markel", "title": "How The 'Battling' Kellogg Brothers Revolutionized American Breakfast", "question_index": 19, "text": "The Whites being the co-founders of the church.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a very good point 'cause he was all about life. There was a rupture between John Harvey Kellogg and the Whites that began probably..."}
{"id": "626376018", "date": "2018-07-06", "guest": "Howard Markel", "title": "How The 'Battling' Kellogg Brothers Revolutionized American Breakfast", "question_index": 20, "text": "OK. So let's get back to cereal. Will was the marketing genius behind Kellogg's cereals. He was also in on the early recipes of them. And he had worked with his brother at the sanitarium as the business guy there figuring out, you know, I guess all the accounting stuff and, you know, making the business end work. And he was very innovative on that front, but he was considered the dim brother when they were kids. He was eight years younger than Dr. Kellogg.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, Ellen and James White, the co-founders of the church. And the rupture probably began as soon as John took over the sanitarium. He was a very headstrong guy. He always knew he was right, even when"}
{"id": "626376018", "date": "2018-07-06", "guest": "Howard Markel", "title": "How The 'Battling' Kellogg Brothers Revolutionized American Breakfast", "question_index": 21, "text": "These two brothers, John and Will, fought to the end. And one of the things they fought about was the brand name of Kellogg.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And John, as the older brother, never missed an opportunity to pick on or humiliate his younger brother from childhood on. In his old age, Will said, what I remember most about my childhood is th"}
{"id": "626376018", "date": "2018-07-06", "guest": "Howard Markel", "title": "How The 'Battling' Kellogg Brothers Revolutionized American Breakfast", "question_index": 22, "text": "So I have to tell you, when I was growing up, Battle Creek was this kind of mythic place for me because, you know, I'd have breakfast cereals for breakfast. And whether it was Post or Kellogg's, the address would be Battle Creek. And I would, like, stare at the cereal boxes when I had breakfast. And there wasn't much to read on them, so you're always seeing the name Battle Creek.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So as soon as poor Will became successful and John Harvey sold him the rights and made a mint off of Corn Flakes stock, he started making his own cereal and calling it Kellogg's. And, of course,"}
{"id": "626376018", "date": "2018-07-06", "guest": "Howard Markel", "title": "How The 'Battling' Kellogg Brothers Revolutionized American Breakfast", "question_index": 23, "text": "And there was always, like, a come on on the boxes were, like, if you wrote to the address in Battle Creek, you'd get a free something or another, you know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "626376018", "date": "2018-07-06", "guest": "Howard Markel", "title": "How The 'Battling' Kellogg Brothers Revolutionized American Breakfast", "question_index": 24, "text": "...A souvenir of the cereal. And so it would all lead back to Battle Creek. And I had no idea what that was or what it meant, though it sounded like a really interesting name - Battle Creek.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "626376018", "date": "2018-07-06", "guest": "Howard Markel", "title": "How The 'Battling' Kellogg Brothers Revolutionized American Breakfast", "question_index": 25, "text": "Like, who knew what kind of battles went on there", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "626376018", "date": "2018-07-06", "guest": "Howard Markel", "title": "How The 'Battling' Kellogg Brothers Revolutionized American Breakfast", "question_index": 26, "text": "that helped produce these cereals?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "626376018", "date": "2018-07-06", "guest": "Howard Markel", "title": "How The 'Battling' Kellogg Brothers Revolutionized American Breakfast", "question_index": 27, "text": "Since you live close to Battle Creek and actually took school trips there, was it a mythical place in your mind? You saw the reality of it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "626376018", "date": "2018-07-06", "guest": "Howard Markel", "title": "How The 'Battling' Kellogg Brothers Revolutionized American Breakfast", "question_index": 28, "text": "Cereal City - is that what it was called?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in 1966, it was because Cereal City was in full operation. So..."}
{"id": "626376018", "date": "2018-07-06", "guest": "Howard Markel", "title": "How The 'Battling' Kellogg Brothers Revolutionized American Breakfast", "question_index": 29, "text": "Well, Howard Markel, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's what they called it, Cereal City. And, you know, if you were a Michigan boy, as I was, you took two big field trips. One was to the Ford Motor Company in Dearborn, Mich., which also had a"}
{"id": "627229213", "date": "2018-07-09", "guest": "Paul Greenberg", "title": "The Science \u2014 And Environmental Hazards \u2014 Behind Fish Oil Supplements", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today's interview is about human health and the health of the oceans. My guest Paul Greenberg has written a new book whose focus is omega-3 dietary supplements, capsules containing the fatty acids derived from fish and other sea life. He examines the claims the omega-3 industry makes about the health benefits of these supplements and what the latest research has to say. He also writes about the effect these supplements are having on the populations of fish used to create them and how this is affecting the ecosystems of our oceans. Later, we'll talk about Greenberg's year-long experiment eating fish at every meal to see if it would have a positive effect on his health. One outcome of the diet - it increased the level of mercury in his system - not a result he was hoping for. Greenberg is also the author of \"American Catch\" and the James Beard Award-winning best-seller \"Four Fish.\" Paul Greenberg, welcome back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "627229213", "date": "2018-07-09", "guest": "Paul Greenberg", "title": "The Science \u2014 And Environmental Hazards \u2014 Behind Fish Oil Supplements", "question_index": 1, "text": "So what are the health claims made by advocates of omega-3 supplements?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you so much for having me back."}
{"id": "627229213", "date": "2018-07-09", "guest": "Paul Greenberg", "title": "The Science \u2014 And Environmental Hazards \u2014 Behind Fish Oil Supplements", "question_index": 2, "text": "So how does omega-3 function in the human body, and why do we think we need more?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Basically, they fall into two categories. One is for cardiovascular health, and the other is for brain health. And within those two mega categories are sort of sub things relating to joints, on one ha"}
{"id": "627229213", "date": "2018-07-09", "guest": "Paul Greenberg", "title": "The Science \u2014 And Environmental Hazards \u2014 Behind Fish Oil Supplements", "question_index": 3, "text": "So what is omega-3?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So in the heart, it seems to play a role in inflammation. Inflammation is sort of one of these boogeyman words that has entered the discourse around public health in the last I would say five to 10 ye"}
{"id": "627229213", "date": "2018-07-09", "guest": "Paul Greenberg", "title": "The Science \u2014 And Environmental Hazards \u2014 Behind Fish Oil Supplements", "question_index": 4, "text": "So what does the latest scientific research say about ingesting omega-3s through supplements?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So omega-3 fatty acids are found in seafood. They're also found in green leafy vegetables. There are different kinds of omega-3s. But basically what they are are fats. And omega-3s differ from other f"}
{"id": "627229213", "date": "2018-07-09", "guest": "Paul Greenberg", "title": "The Science \u2014 And Environmental Hazards \u2014 Behind Fish Oil Supplements", "question_index": 5, "text": "So how is the supplement industry responding to this research that you've been describing that says, you know, the omega-3 supplements might not be doing what we want them to do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Lately not so many positive things. There have been these raft of studies that came out in the last, say, 10, 15 years really coming to fruition in the last five years that have shown really very limi"}
{"id": "627229213", "date": "2018-07-09", "guest": "Paul Greenberg", "title": "The Science \u2014 And Environmental Hazards \u2014 Behind Fish Oil Supplements", "question_index": 6, "text": "I think part of the reason why a lot of people take omega-3 supplements is that they know omega-3 is important to brain functioning. So like you said, why not have more? Can the human body make omega-3 by itself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the supplement industry tends to respond with more and more studies. The problem that I found as a lay person going into this book was that there are so many omega-3 studies, almost 30,000 studi"}
{"id": "627229213", "date": "2018-07-09", "guest": "Paul Greenberg", "title": "The Science \u2014 And Environmental Hazards \u2014 Behind Fish Oil Supplements", "question_index": 7, "text": "So does the human body absorb omega-3s equally well through a supplement or through fish - when the omega-3 is within the fish itself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, yes, it can. The human body can take what's called alpha-Linolenic acid, ALA, from - which is a source of vegetable omega-3, will come to us from leafy greens, various vegetable sources. And we ac"}
{"id": "627229213", "date": "2018-07-09", "guest": "Paul Greenberg", "title": "The Science \u2014 And Environmental Hazards \u2014 Behind Fish Oil Supplements", "question_index": 8, "text": "Some of the eggs I buy have omega-3 in them. Is that because the eggs have been supplemented, or are there omega-3s naturally in eggs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My impression when talking to health professionals was that, generally speaking, it's better to get omega-3s in food form, just like it's better to get many different forms of nutrition in food rather"}
{"id": "627229213", "date": "2018-07-09", "guest": "Paul Greenberg", "title": "The Science \u2014 And Environmental Hazards \u2014 Behind Fish Oil Supplements", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well, let's take a break here. And then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Paul Greenberg. He's a journalist who's been focusing on issues related to fish for years now. And his new book is called \"The Omega Principle: Seafood And The Quest For A Long Life And A Healthier Planet.\" When we come back, we'll talk about what the source is for over-the-counter omega supplements and what Greenberg says that's doing to the oceans and the oceans' ecosystems. So we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, interestingly, there's a doctor in the book named Artemis Simopoulos. She noticed that in Greece, chickens were always browsing on wild field greens, purslane in particular. And so she smuggled a "}
{"id": "627229213", "date": "2018-07-09", "guest": "Paul Greenberg", "title": "The Science \u2014 And Environmental Hazards \u2014 Behind Fish Oil Supplements", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is journalist Paul Greenberg, who has written extensively about fish over the years. And his new book is called \"The Omega Principle.\" It's about omega-3 supplements and what the research has to say about whether they're effective or not and what the harvesting of fish for omega-3 supplements is doing to the oceans. So you're concerned about what omega-3s supplements are doing to the ecosystems in the oceans because the omega-3 supplements come from fish or at least largely come from fish. So what are some of the main sources of the omega-3 supplements?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, interestingly, there's a doctor in the book named Artemis Simopoulos. She noticed that in Greece, chickens were always browsing on wild field greens, purslane in particular. And so she smuggled a "}
{"id": "627229213", "date": "2018-07-09", "guest": "Paul Greenberg", "title": "The Science \u2014 And Environmental Hazards \u2014 Behind Fish Oil Supplements", "question_index": 11, "text": "So these Peruvian anchoveta - are they anchovies.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So omega-3 supplements come from this critical layer of the ocean biosphere that are small - what are called pelagic fish. They're the silvery, little fish like anchovies and herring and other fish ca"}
{"id": "627229213", "date": "2018-07-09", "guest": "Paul Greenberg", "title": "The Science \u2014 And Environmental Hazards \u2014 Behind Fish Oil Supplements", "question_index": 12, "text": "So when you talk about reduction and the reduction industry, explain what you're talking about.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, they're basically anchovies. They're in the same family as the anchovies that we've eaten - that we all eat from the Mediterranean or are off the coast of Africa. And yeah, it's just - the only "}
{"id": "627229213", "date": "2018-07-09", "guest": "Paul Greenberg", "title": "The Science \u2014 And Environmental Hazards \u2014 Behind Fish Oil Supplements", "question_index": 13, "text": "So if a lot of the small fish that are being harvested in order to be reduced for animal feed and for supplements - what happens to the fish that eat those smaller fish that are being harvested?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the reduction industry basically takes all these little fish, catches them buy the millions of pounds or billions of pounds, puts them in a cooker and boils them down into oil that is used for diet"}
{"id": "627229213", "date": "2018-07-09", "guest": "Paul Greenberg", "title": "The Science \u2014 And Environmental Hazards \u2014 Behind Fish Oil Supplements", "question_index": 14, "text": "My guest is Paul Greenberg, author of the new book \"The Omega Principle.\" We'll talk more after a break. And David Edelstein will review a new documentary about three identical twins separated at birth adopted by three different families. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The fish that are harvested by the supplement industry are keystone species. They are essential for growing larger fish. And if we remove those smaller fish from the system, then we're going to see fe"}
{"id": "627229213", "date": "2018-07-09", "guest": "Paul Greenberg", "title": "The Science \u2014 And Environmental Hazards \u2014 Behind Fish Oil Supplements", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with journalist Paul Greenberg, who writes about fish, health and our oceans and rivers. His new book, \"The Omega Principle,\" is about the health claims made for omega-3 supplements and what the research has to say about that. The book is also about the small fish and other sea creatures that are boiled down or reduced to make these supplements and for meal for livestock feed and pet food. Greenberg says that the harvesting of these small fish and sea creatures is affecting the food chain in the oceans. In addition to the small fish we've been talking about being harvested for the reduction industry, krill has become a major source in the past 10 years. What are krill, and how are they being used?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The fish that are harvested by the supplement industry are keystone species. They are essential for growing larger fish. And if we remove those smaller fish from the system, then we're going to see fe"}
{"id": "627229213", "date": "2018-07-09", "guest": "Paul Greenberg", "title": "The Science \u2014 And Environmental Hazards \u2014 Behind Fish Oil Supplements", "question_index": 16, "text": "So do you think it's sustainable to extract the fish that we're extracting to sustain the omega-3 supplement industry?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So krill are a crustacean. They're found generally in the higher latitudes both in the North and the South Pole. But the krill that are the subject of the reduction industry are in the Southern Ocean."}
{"id": "627229213", "date": "2018-07-09", "guest": "Paul Greenberg", "title": "The Science \u2014 And Environmental Hazards \u2014 Behind Fish Oil Supplements", "question_index": 17, "text": "Ok, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, really, we're talking about the reduction industry, right? So it's not just omega-3s."}
{"id": "627229213", "date": "2018-07-09", "guest": "Paul Greenberg", "title": "The Science \u2014 And Environmental Hazards \u2014 Behind Fish Oil Supplements", "question_index": 18, "text": "So early in our interview, we talked about how there's, like - what'd you say? - like 30,000 studies related to investigating whether omega-3 supplements are actually effective or not in improving various health functions. Omega-3 as a supplement falls out of the purview of the Food and Drug Administration, the FDA, because it's categorized as neither food nor drug. Now, this is something else you write about in your book - how the supplement industry came to be outside of the regulatory power of the FDA. So can you give us a little background on how that happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's animal feed and everything. So it used to be a lot worse. Nowadays, it is much better. And I would say that almost every reduction industry that I've looked at has criteria by which they judge su"}
{"id": "627229213", "date": "2018-07-09", "guest": "Paul Greenberg", "title": "The Science \u2014 And Environmental Hazards \u2014 Behind Fish Oil Supplements", "question_index": 19, "text": "So you wanted to find a way of eating fish that would be both good for you and for the ecosystem of the sea. So you went on this fish diet for a year where at every meal - breakfast, lunch, dinner - you had fish. Did you have things besides fish? Did you have fruits and vegetables and grains?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The sort of modern era of supplements really begins with Linus Pauling. He was very much involved in the early discoveries around DNA. But in the 1970s, as his sort of career was starting to fade, he "}
{"id": "627229213", "date": "2018-07-09", "guest": "Paul Greenberg", "title": "The Science \u2014 And Environmental Hazards \u2014 Behind Fish Oil Supplements", "question_index": 20, "text": "OK. So it raised the level of omega-3s in your body.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I had fruits, vegetables and grains."}
{"id": "627229213", "date": "2018-07-09", "guest": "Paul Greenberg", "title": "The Science \u2014 And Environmental Hazards \u2014 Behind Fish Oil Supplements", "question_index": 21, "text": "It also raised the level of mercury in your body, which is not a good thing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep."}
{"id": "627229213", "date": "2018-07-09", "guest": "Paul Greenberg", "title": "The Science \u2014 And Environmental Hazards \u2014 Behind Fish Oil Supplements", "question_index": 22, "text": "I thought that shellfish were supposed to be the kinds of bottom feeders that are dirty and that you had to be careful when eating shellfish. Was I misinformed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no. No, in fact, actually, it went up to 5 parts per million. And it was funny - at the time, I was also working on a Frontline documentary which covered some of the same material. And I remem"}
{"id": "627229213", "date": "2018-07-09", "guest": "Paul Greenberg", "title": "The Science \u2014 And Environmental Hazards \u2014 Behind Fish Oil Supplements", "question_index": 23, "text": "Yeah, thank you, 'cause I'm realizing, like, mussels kind of live on the shore, like, near the shore. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, it is true that you need clean water to have good shellfish. And you certainly wouldn't want to be eating clams and mussels and oysters from contaminated waters. But to me this is a po"}
{"id": "627229213", "date": "2018-07-09", "guest": "Paul Greenberg", "title": "The Science \u2014 And Environmental Hazards \u2014 Behind Fish Oil Supplements", "question_index": 24, "text": "...They're not exactly at the bottom of the ocean.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, the whole..."}
{"id": "627229213", "date": "2018-07-09", "guest": "Paul Greenberg", "title": "The Science \u2014 And Environmental Hazards \u2014 Behind Fish Oil Supplements", "question_index": 25, "text": "Let's take a break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Paul Greenberg. And his book - he's written extensively about fish over the years, and his new book is called \"The Omega Principle: Seafood And The Quest For A Long Life And A Healthier Planet.\" And it's about the omega-3 supplement industry and its impact on the ecosystems of the oceans. And in writing about that, he also writes about the whole reduction industry, which harvests fish and uses it for animal feed and food supplements and other products. So we'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The whole bottom feeder term is a really weird thing. If you want, I can go off in a really weird digression. There was this rabbi in the Middle Ages called Nachmanides. And he's the one who kind of c"}
{"id": "627229213", "date": "2018-07-09", "guest": "Paul Greenberg", "title": "The Science \u2014 And Environmental Hazards \u2014 Behind Fish Oil Supplements", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Paul Greenberg, a journalist who's written extensively about fish over the years. And his new book is called \"The Omega Principle: Seafood And The Quest For A Long Life And A Healthier Planet.\" And its focus is omega supplements. And it looks at, like, are they actually healthy for you? What does the research say? How are the omega supplements created? And it turns out they're created through harvesting a lot of fish that are then reduced, that are then processed into things like supplements and animal feed and fertilizer. You previously recommended something on our show that was - that seemed counter-intuitive, which is, like, buy the frozen salmon...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The whole bottom feeder term is a really weird thing. If you want, I can go off in a really weird digression. There was this rabbi in the Middle Ages called Nachmanides. And he's the one who kind of c"}
{"id": "627229213", "date": "2018-07-09", "guest": "Paul Greenberg", "title": "The Science \u2014 And Environmental Hazards \u2014 Behind Fish Oil Supplements", "question_index": 27, "text": "...Instead of the salmon that's sitting on the ice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "627229213", "date": "2018-07-09", "guest": "Paul Greenberg", "title": "The Science \u2014 And Environmental Hazards \u2014 Behind Fish Oil Supplements", "question_index": 28, "text": "I would always assume that, you know, the seemingly fresh salmon would be the way to go. So are you still recommending the frozen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "627229213", "date": "2018-07-09", "guest": "Paul Greenberg", "title": "The Science \u2014 And Environmental Hazards \u2014 Behind Fish Oil Supplements", "question_index": 29, "text": "So your book does include a couple of recipes. And you say kind of your publisher insisted this would help...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, generally speaking, yes. I mean, what most consumers don't know is that outside of the July-August window, any time you see Alaskan salmon in the supermarket, it would have been previously froze"}
{"id": "627229213", "date": "2018-07-09", "guest": "Paul Greenberg", "title": "The Science \u2014 And Environmental Hazards \u2014 Behind Fish Oil Supplements", "question_index": 30, "text": "...Sell the book. A recipe I find very appealing because of the five-minute aspect is five-minute salmon.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, generally speaking, yes. I mean, what most consumers don't know is that outside of the July-August window, any time you see Alaskan salmon in the supermarket, it would have been previously froze"}
{"id": "627229213", "date": "2018-07-09", "guest": "Paul Greenberg", "title": "The Science \u2014 And Environmental Hazards \u2014 Behind Fish Oil Supplements", "question_index": 31, "text": "So I was going to ask you the temperature. But the temperature's on broil.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "First of all, I like to start with sockeye salmon. It cooks quickly. It is lower in fat. Take the fish. If it's frozen, defrost it overnight in the refrigerator. Take it out of the vacuum-packed seale"}
{"id": "627229213", "date": "2018-07-09", "guest": "Paul Greenberg", "title": "The Science \u2014 And Environmental Hazards \u2014 Behind Fish Oil Supplements", "question_index": 32, "text": "And so if you've blotted dry the salmon before putting it in the broiler, is it less likely to splatter and smell while it cooks and smell up your broiler?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So I do know my way around the kitchen. And I guess I would say just make sure that you're broiling rack isn't right up against the flame. But I'd say like three or four inches below the flame shoul"}
{"id": "627229213", "date": "2018-07-09", "guest": "Paul Greenberg", "title": "The Science \u2014 And Environmental Hazards \u2014 Behind Fish Oil Supplements", "question_index": 33, "text": "Right. Paul Greenberg, great to have you back on the show. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess. You know, probably the less - personally, I don't mind the smell that much. I will say that it is interesting when you ask Americans, time and again, why they don't eat more fish, they always"}
{"id": "627229213", "date": "2018-07-09", "guest": "Paul Greenberg", "title": "The Science \u2014 And Environmental Hazards \u2014 Behind Fish Oil Supplements", "question_index": 34, "text": "Paul Greenberg is the author of the new book \"The Omega Principle.\" After we take a short break, film critic David Edelstein will review a new documentary about three triplets who were separated at birth and adopted by three different families. They didn't know about each other until years later. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. It was really fun."}
{"id": "628796229", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'Fresh Air' Conversations With The Late Cartoonist John Callahan", "question_index": 0, "text": "These cartoons are really very funny. I wonder if people are ever afraid to laugh at some of them, especially the ones about amputees and, you know, people in wheelchairs and stuff like that because they might be afraid that the laughter would be perceived as laughing at people with disabilities.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have this cartoon with two cut-off heads on the street corner, just disembodied heads with - on little cards with tin cups. And one of them is blind. And the sighted cut-off head is saying to the bl"}
{"id": "628796229", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'Fresh Air' Conversations With The Late Cartoonist John Callahan", "question_index": 1, "text": "Does it make a difference to people who are seeing your cartoons if they know that you are paraplegic yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I think people have that ambivalent feeling. I get stopped by people all the time that say that they would like to laugh or they do laugh, and then they feel guilty. And then they go back to laug"}
{"id": "628796229", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'Fresh Air' Conversations With The Late Cartoonist John Callahan", "question_index": 2, "text": "What have your most controversial cartoons been?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it seems to make a difference. People are very condemning of me until they find out or read that I'm that paralyzed. And then they suddenly agree that I have a license to kill or something."}
{"id": "628796229", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'Fresh Air' Conversations With The Late Cartoonist John Callahan", "question_index": 3, "text": "Have stupid questions that you're asked about being handicapped led to cartoons?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In the book, I have my first angry letter, which is - I have framed at the house with many to follow. But it's a picture of a guy in a bar with no hands. And he has hooks for hands on both hands. And "}
{"id": "628796229", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'Fresh Air' Conversations With The Late Cartoonist John Callahan", "question_index": 4, "text": "Right. Can you take the same liberties with other people, or does it come off as sexist or racist?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sometimes, yes. As a matter of fact, that first cartoon I described of the two cut-off heads talking because many people come to me and say, you know, people like you are a real inspiration to me. Whi"}
{"id": "628796229", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'Fresh Air' Conversations With The Late Cartoonist John Callahan", "question_index": 5, "text": "Did you have the same kind of sense of humor before your accident?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I guess people are touchy about the special interest groups like that. I mean, I've drawn - I have, for instance, a cartoon which is very popular. It's a picture of a cafe - in the window of the"}
{"id": "628796229", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'Fresh Air' Conversations With The Late Cartoonist John Callahan", "question_index": 6, "text": "Was it hard for you to find your sense of humor after your accident?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I did. I had it as a kid. I remember doing kind of cynical, you know, humor for my parents, kind of stand-up in the days I could - when I could stand up, you know. As a 5 or 6-year-old kid, I wou"}
{"id": "628796229", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'Fresh Air' Conversations With The Late Cartoonist John Callahan", "question_index": 7, "text": "Now, you write in your book that it's a fact of paralyzed life that people want to come up to you and cure you by delivering you to Jesus.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it took - I think it was always there. But, you know, the overwhelming, you know, depressions and stuff and disorientation for the first months and years are quite something to contend with. But"}
{"id": "628796229", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'Fresh Air' Conversations With The Late Cartoonist John Callahan", "question_index": 8, "text": "Does it ever make you angry that people would approach you and say, well, I've got the cure if you follow my way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I find that's true. I cite a couple of examples in the book. I mean, someone recently came up and told me - asked me if he could cure me, if I would be willing to be cured by Christ to be able t"}
{"id": "628796229", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'Fresh Air' Conversations With The Late Cartoonist John Callahan", "question_index": 9, "text": "You say that prostitutes hit on you also because they assume you're going to be sexually needy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This seems funny, but, I mean, just yesterday, my friend Kevin (ph) and I were sitting somewhere in front of a restaurant. And a guy was standing by there waiting for a cab. And he said - he looked do"}
{"id": "628796229", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'Fresh Air' Conversations With The Late Cartoonist John Callahan", "question_index": 10, "text": "You know, I'm thinking it's what you do to get people to laugh. And one of the many subjects you get people laugh about is handicaps. Do you ever feel like saying to someone, hey, it's not funny?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, I think that's something that a lot of guys in wheelchairs have commiserated with me about it. It's - so, you know, I have drawn this cartoon - I show a picture of myself lying down in the"}
{"id": "628796229", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'Fresh Air' Conversations With The Late Cartoonist John Callahan", "question_index": 11, "text": "In one cartoon, a couple is eating in a cafe. A sign on the wall says thank you for not talking about your relationship. Here's another good one. A mother admonishes her children at the dinner table, finish your vegetables. There are children in Beverly Hills with eating disorders. And then there's the low self-esteem engine trying to get up the hill, chugging, I don't deserve to. I don't deserve to. There's even a Callahan cartoon about co-dependency.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. In 1991, Terry Gross spoke with John Callahan again about his collection of drawings called \"Digesting The Child Within: And Other Cartoons To Live By.\" They talked frankly about hi"}
{"id": "628796229", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'Fresh Air' Conversations With The Late Cartoonist John Callahan", "question_index": 12, "text": "Yeah. That's good.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, well, so much about it that my reaction to it was to draw a picture of a guy just walking down the street thinking to himself, I think. Therefore, I'm co-dependent."}
{"id": "628796229", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'Fresh Air' Conversations With The Late Cartoonist John Callahan", "question_index": 13, "text": "Do you know the language of therapy and self-help from the inside? Have you've been in a lot of groups yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "628796229", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'Fresh Air' Conversations With The Late Cartoonist John Callahan", "question_index": 14, "text": "Have you found in self-help groups that you've been in that your brand of cynicism is not really welcomed within the group?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, really, I haven't been that many groups - just a good, old AA experience more than anything. I have gone to, you know, counsellors and stuff over the years. And so, I mean, one of the first cart"}
{"id": "628796229", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'Fresh Air' Conversations With The Late Cartoonist John Callahan", "question_index": 15, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I've had that happen a lot of times, when people think I have a bad attitude. And, you know, I think there's room for this kind of humor. It's refreshing. People - I think most people have the a"}
{"id": "628796229", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'Fresh Air' Conversations With The Late Cartoonist John Callahan", "question_index": 16, "text": "You know, sometimes, when you're really cynical or skeptical, you're accused of using it as a defense mechanism, which, in fact, sometimes, it is. But sometimes, it's just a function of your sensibility. Do you find people get confused about that with you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, that's a little more on the edge. But, you know..."}
{"id": "628796229", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'Fresh Air' Conversations With The Late Cartoonist John Callahan", "question_index": 17, "text": "Well, in the new book, the little, like, novella...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I get confused myself about it, really. I mean, I think it's a function of both those things in me, really. But I was sort of born genetically, I think, with a sense of humor. But then I have de"}
{"id": "628796229", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'Fresh Air' Conversations With The Late Cartoonist John Callahan", "question_index": 18, "text": "...The short story series of cartoons is about how you became and stopped being an alcoholic.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "628796229", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'Fresh Air' Conversations With The Late Cartoonist John Callahan", "question_index": 19, "text": "Well the humor in it is really odd. Let me tell you about the image that really stands out in my mind from it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, that's my way of telling something. I mean, I can tell the truth. And - but it's easier for me doing it through humor. I mean, it comes out. The truth is very plain, and it's almost shocki"}
{"id": "628796229", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'Fresh Air' Conversations With The Late Cartoonist John Callahan", "question_index": 20, "text": "You're talking about how, after the accident, you know, when you were in a wheelchair, a friend was wheeling you down the street. And he was really drunk, and you were really drunk. And you didn't realize that your foot was dragging beneath the chair because you have no feeling in the foot.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "628796229", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'Fresh Air' Conversations With The Late Cartoonist John Callahan", "question_index": 21, "text": "And then you got back to, I guess, the nursing home. And there was like - you just kind of scraped all the skin off your feet...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "628796229", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'Fresh Air' Conversations With The Late Cartoonist John Callahan", "question_index": 22, "text": "...Or your foot.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah"}
{"id": "628796229", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'Fresh Air' Conversations With The Late Cartoonist John Callahan", "question_index": 23, "text": "I mean, that was just really horrifying to me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "628796229", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'Fresh Air' Conversations With The Late Cartoonist John Callahan", "question_index": 24, "text": "So what was the nuns' reaction when you came back with this skin off of your foot? It sounds like - in the comic, it sounds like they were angry at you, and they throw you out of the nursing home.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's grotesque. But actually, in the cartoon a bit of it made light and set up - if anybody could believe that they could be lightened up, like, with a - there's just this flume of blood flowing out o"}
{"id": "628796229", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'Fresh Air' Conversations With The Late Cartoonist John Callahan", "question_index": 25, "text": "You describe the bottoming-out moment in the cartoon. Would you describe what really happened for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they were angry because I was so much younger then. I was just 23 or 24. But I was drunk all the time, and the nuns didn't like it. And they were like - they didn't want to abide my, you know, a"}
{"id": "628796229", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'Fresh Air' Conversations With The Late Cartoonist John Callahan", "question_index": 26, "text": "What kind of help did you call for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was at home alone one day in my wheelchair. And everyone was gone in my apartment. I was just alone. I was drinking a bottle of wine. I was about half-drunk And I dropped the bottle, and I cou"}
{"id": "628796229", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'Fresh Air' Conversations With The Late Cartoonist John Callahan", "question_index": 27, "text": "So once you gave up alcohol, how did you get into cartooning, and how did you realize that you actually could still draw? I know that's something you did when you were a kid.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess I called, you know, Alcoholics Anonymous."}
{"id": "628796229", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'Fresh Air' Conversations With The Late Cartoonist John Callahan", "question_index": 28, "text": "How much use do you have of your hands?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was kind of a natural sequence of things. Once I became sober and had a few years of sobriety, I became creative again and in touch with my creative drive. And once that happens, then I - wild hors"}
{"id": "628796229", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'Fresh Air' Conversations With The Late Cartoonist John Callahan", "question_index": 29, "text": "Oh, I should ask you to describe - this is a favorite in the FRESH AIR office - the - was it called the schizophrenic choir?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, completely, almost. My arms are normal. My - some of my fingers are just a little stiff. So I draw kind of - I have a goofy - it looks kind of dippy the way I draw, but..."}
{"id": "628796229", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'Fresh Air' Conversations With The Late Cartoonist John Callahan", "question_index": 30, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Schizophrenic choir - that's the Christmas tree one? Or is that..."}
{"id": "628796229", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'Fresh Air' Conversations With The Late Cartoonist John Callahan", "question_index": 31, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "628796229", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'Fresh Air' Conversations With The Late Cartoonist John Callahan", "question_index": 32, "text": "That's really good", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let's see. There's, like, a crazy choir or something in Christmastime. I wish I could remember. Schizophrenic Christmas choir - they're standing on the bleachers with their Christmas outfits on. They "}
{"id": "628796229", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'Fresh Air' Conversations With The Late Cartoonist John Callahan", "question_index": 33, "text": ". So what kind of setup do you have in your house now for physical therapy and stuff?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let's see. There's, like, a crazy choir or something in Christmastime. I wish I could remember. Schizophrenic Christmas choir - they're standing on the bleachers with their Christmas outfits on. They "}
{"id": "628796229", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'Fresh Air' Conversations With The Late Cartoonist John Callahan", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just have the regular kind of, like, S and M-looking bed..."}
{"id": "628796229", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'Fresh Air' Conversations With The Late Cartoonist John Callahan", "question_index": 35, "text": "Do you get a lot of offers from disability rights groups who want you to do work for them and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I just do maintenance therapy now - physical therapy, really."}
{"id": "628796229", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'Fresh Air' Conversations With The Late Cartoonist John Callahan", "question_index": 36, "text": "And, if so - do you do it or not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I do."}
{"id": "628796229", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'Fresh Air' Conversations With The Late Cartoonist John Callahan", "question_index": 37, "text": "Is it hard to say no, though, to people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do some. I mean, I don't know. I don't relate to as much as - I mean, the disability thing - I mean, I do a lot of cartoons about it. I don't relate to it as just, like, a strict political thing or "}
{"id": "628796229", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'Fresh Air' Conversations With The Late Cartoonist John Callahan", "question_index": 38, "text": "Very sick", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. I did one recently for something called the Spinal Network of - you know, I love a magazine that comes right out and tells what it's about - the Spinal Network magazine. It's a good magazine"}
{"id": "628796229", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'Fresh Air' Conversations With The Late Cartoonist John Callahan", "question_index": 39, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. I did one recently for something called the Spinal Network of - you know, I love a magazine that comes right out and tells what it's about - the Spinal Network magazine. It's a good magazine"}
{"id": "628800873", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Tab Hunter", "title": "Remembering 1950s Hollywood Heartthrob Tab Hunter", "question_index": 0, "text": "Tab Hunter, welcome to FRESH AIR. I'm so glad you wrote this book. You know, you're one of the few actors who can talk about what it was like to be a heartthrob in the '50s while you were in the closet. Or, at least I should say, you're the only one who's willing to talk", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross. Hollywood actor Tab Hunter died Sunday at age 86. In the 1950s, Tab Hunter was a heartthrob - a blond, clean-cut matinee idol who made the c"}
{"id": "628800873", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Tab Hunter", "title": "Remembering 1950s Hollywood Heartthrob Tab Hunter", "question_index": 1, "text": "about it if there's more out there. So I'm really glad you wrote it. How long have you been out?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross. Hollywood actor Tab Hunter died Sunday at age 86. In the 1950s, Tab Hunter was a heartthrob - a blond, clean-cut matinee idol who made the c"}
{"id": "628800873", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Tab Hunter", "title": "Remembering 1950s Hollywood Heartthrob Tab Hunter", "question_index": 2, "text": "But, you know, I'm wondering if you felt you had to be an actor off the screen as well as on the screen because offscreen you had to act the role of Tab Hunter. You're gay. Tab Hunter was supposed be straight. And also, I mean, the name wasn't yours. And, you know, let's face it. A lot of actors had personas off screen that the Hollywood studio created for them. But when you're in the closet, that sense of a persona is even more extreme.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you. You know, I had to write the book. Number one, the reason I wrote the book - and I think that's important - is because I heard someone else was going to be writing a book about me. An"}
{"id": "628800873", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Tab Hunter", "title": "Remembering 1950s Hollywood Heartthrob Tab Hunter", "question_index": 3, "text": "Did the studio - like, who in Hollywood knew about your sexual orientation? Because this would have been a big issue had it been revealed. So did the studio heads know? Did other actors know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think a lot of people place importance on all of that, you know, being in the closet and this and that. You know, number one, you're a human being. You have to be yourself. And that's the most impor"}
{"id": "628800873", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Tab Hunter", "title": "Remembering 1950s Hollywood Heartthrob Tab Hunter", "question_index": 4, "text": "You had a relationship with Tony Perkins for a couple of years. Were there places you could be together without anyone knowing that you were more than buddies? I mean, were you able to be out in public together?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I never said anything. I was very quiet. I was - you know, nothing - I never was out there, so to speak, not at all. The people who knew - I'm sure probably my agent Dick Clayton. My - the studio had "}
{"id": "628800873", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Tab Hunter", "title": "Remembering 1950s Hollywood Heartthrob Tab Hunter", "question_index": 5, "text": "And you read that he had shock therapy to try to turn himself straight. Was that when you knew him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would go out with Tony. We'd go to premieres. We'd go to movies. We'd go to the opening of the Ice Capades and things like that. We might double date to go out. Tony was a little uncomfortable somet"}
{"id": "628800873", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Tab Hunter", "title": "Remembering 1950s Hollywood Heartthrob Tab Hunter", "question_index": 6, "text": "What was your reaction when you heard that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, that was quite a number of years after."}
{"id": "628800873", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Tab Hunter", "title": "Remembering 1950s Hollywood Heartthrob Tab Hunter", "question_index": 7, "text": "Were you ever...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was - I was literally shocked. Yeah, I was quite surprised."}
{"id": "628800873", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Tab Hunter", "title": "Remembering 1950s Hollywood Heartthrob Tab Hunter", "question_index": 8, "text": "An article that could have really damaged you but didn't was published in 1955 in the tabloid Confidential. And it was headlined \"The Lowdown On That Disorderly Conduct Charge Against Tab Hunter.\" You reprint a paragraph from this in your book, and I'd like to just read some of it just to give a sense of what those times were like.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I did see Tony a few years before he passed away. And I saw Berry and the children up at the house. And it was just wonderful to see that. It really was. I was very, very happy for him."}
{"id": "628800873", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Tab Hunter", "title": "Remembering 1950s Hollywood Heartthrob Tab Hunter", "question_index": 9, "text": "OK, let me just read some of this. (Reading) It all started with a vice cop who was drifting in and out of Hollywood's queer bars on the afternoon of October 14 looking and listening for tips on the newest notions of the limp-wristed lads. Pausing for a Scotch and water in one gay joint, the deputy struck up a conversation with a couple of lispers who happily prattled that they were set for a big binge that very evening at 2501 Hope Street in a suburb of LA. One drink led to another, and the pair finally invited the snooper to come along. There was only one dashing requirement - bring pajamas.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that's just one article in Confidential. I think I made three covers and four articles."}
{"id": "628800873", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Tab Hunter", "title": "Remembering 1950s Hollywood Heartthrob Tab Hunter", "question_index": 10, "text": "(Reading) Since breaking up such queer romps was his business, the detective pretended to fall in with his barroom chums and arranged to accompany them. Between snorts, however, he called the Los Angeles sheriff's office for reinforcements. Wow. What was your reaction when you read this article?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Please."}
{"id": "628800873", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Tab Hunter", "title": "Remembering 1950s Hollywood Heartthrob Tab Hunter", "question_index": 11, "text": "So you're about 21 when this is published?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I was a kid out of the Coast Guard, and I - a friend of mine, Terry Marcella (ph), who's passed away, said, you want to go to a party this evening? I said fine. So I went. And I walked in. And I'd b"}
{"id": "628800873", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Tab Hunter", "title": "Remembering 1950s Hollywood Heartthrob Tab Hunter", "question_index": 12, "text": "Wow. Isn't that called betrayal", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And the interesting story is this, that Confidential magazine was going to be doing a story on Rock Hudson. So our agent at the time was Henry Willson. And Henry did not want that. So what he did"}
{"id": "628800873", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Tab Hunter", "title": "Remembering 1950s Hollywood Heartthrob Tab Hunter", "question_index": 13, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And the interesting story is this, that Confidential magazine was going to be doing a story on Rock Hudson. So our agent at the time was Henry Willson. And Henry did not want that. So what he did"}
{"id": "628800873", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Tab Hunter", "title": "Remembering 1950s Hollywood Heartthrob Tab Hunter", "question_index": 14, "text": "Wow. So was the story they were going to write about Rock Hudson about him being gay?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "628800873", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Tab Hunter", "title": "Remembering 1950s Hollywood Heartthrob Tab Hunter", "question_index": 15, "text": "So how did you find out that it was your agent who gave them the story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have no idea. I have no idea what the story was going to be about. But they were going to do some scandalous thing, I'm sure, on Rock."}
{"id": "628800873", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Tab Hunter", "title": "Remembering 1950s Hollywood Heartthrob Tab Hunter", "question_index": 16, "text": "Much later?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because it came out..."}
{"id": "628800873", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Tab Hunter", "title": "Remembering 1950s Hollywood Heartthrob Tab Hunter", "question_index": 17, "text": "So you and Rock Hudson had the same agents.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. Yes, yes, yes, it did. And I was shocked to hear that."}
{"id": "628800873", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Tab Hunter", "title": "Remembering 1950s Hollywood Heartthrob Tab Hunter", "question_index": 18, "text": "By the time you found out, was he still your agent.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Henry Wilson was the agent for Rory Calhoun, Guy Madison, Rock, myself, a number of people. And he discovered Lana Turner. He was Natalie Wood's agent for a short while. Rhonda Fleming he discove"}
{"id": "628800873", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Tab Hunter", "title": "Remembering 1950s Hollywood Heartthrob Tab Hunter", "question_index": 19, "text": "OK, so this article that I quoted is really obnoxiously written. It's published to cause a scandal, knowing that it could hurt you. So did anybody take the bait? I mean, what happened after this? And it was a distortion of a party you'd actually went to, but the party was busted. So they could say oh, no, this is factually correct. You know, he was at this party. The party was busted. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's why he gave it - because I was no longer his - he was no longer my agent."}
{"id": "628800873", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Tab Hunter", "title": "Remembering 1950s Hollywood Heartthrob Tab Hunter", "question_index": 20, "text": "So what happened afterwards? What were the consequences?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The press..."}
{"id": "628800873", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Tab Hunter", "title": "Remembering 1950s Hollywood Heartthrob Tab Hunter", "question_index": 21, "text": "So instead of this article hurting your career, are you saying it helped you? Or was it just...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't understand what happened."}
{"id": "628800873", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Tab Hunter", "title": "Remembering 1950s Hollywood Heartthrob Tab Hunter", "question_index": 22, "text": "Did anyone ever try to blackmail you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I don't think it helped me. But I do think that people believe what they want to believe."}
{"id": "628800873", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Tab Hunter", "title": "Remembering 1950s Hollywood Heartthrob Tab Hunter", "question_index": 23, "text": "So what did you do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, a couple times, yeah. I wrote about it in the book."}
{"id": "628800873", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Tab Hunter", "title": "Remembering 1950s Hollywood Heartthrob Tab Hunter", "question_index": 24, "text": "So how did you end it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I talked to my friend Martha, who's an attorney. And I just - you know, I just - we just got to get out of this nonsense. I mean, this is - I just hate people that are - that think like that. You know"}
{"id": "628800873", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Tab Hunter", "title": "Remembering 1950s Hollywood Heartthrob Tab Hunter", "question_index": 25, "text": "And you don't know what Martha did?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I let Martha take care of it for me."}
{"id": "628800873", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Tab Hunter", "title": "Remembering 1950s Hollywood Heartthrob Tab Hunter", "question_index": 26, "text": "How did you become an actor? You're one of those actors who became famous without having gone to acting school, though far fewer people went to acting school back then. But, I mean, you learned by doing it. So how did you get to do it in the first place?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview from 2005 with Hollywood heartthrob Tab Hunter. He died Sunday at age 86."}
{"id": "628800873", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Tab Hunter", "title": "Remembering 1950s Hollywood Heartthrob Tab Hunter", "question_index": 27, "text": "And you had a singing career, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was discovered at the stable as a stable boy shoveling the real stuff. And I then was introduced to an agent later. At first, I was a young, wide-eyed kid going, wow, look at this. Look what's"}
{"id": "628800873", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Tab Hunter", "title": "Remembering 1950s Hollywood Heartthrob Tab Hunter", "question_index": 28, "text": "Your biggest hit was \"Young Love.\" What were some of the differences between how you were treated in the recording industry when you had hit records and how you were treated in the film industry in terms of the way you were marketed, how people treated you as a person?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes."}
{"id": "628800873", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Tab Hunter", "title": "Remembering 1950s Hollywood Heartthrob Tab Hunter", "question_index": 29, "text": "Oh, really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well the interesting thing - even a more interesting story, I think, than that is the fact that Warner Brothers had me under contract. That meant for everything. So I did - I cut this record for Dot. "}
{"id": "628800873", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Tab Hunter", "title": "Remembering 1950s Hollywood Heartthrob Tab Hunter", "question_index": 30, "text": "So that they could, like, release records by the people who they, quote, \"owned.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was the first recording artist on that label."}
{"id": "628800873", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Tab Hunter", "title": "Remembering 1950s Hollywood Heartthrob Tab Hunter", "question_index": 31, "text": "Well why don't we hear your 1957 hit, your first hit, \"Young Love\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then - yes. And then I recorded for Warner Bros also. In fact, I've just released a CD with tunes from my Dot - originals from the Dot and the Warner Bros. label."}
{"id": "628800873", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Tab Hunter", "title": "Remembering 1950s Hollywood Heartthrob Tab Hunter", "question_index": 32, "text": "That's Tab Hunter and his first hit, \"Young Love.\" And Tab Hunter has a new memoir, and it's called \"Tab Hunter Confidential: The Making Of A Movie Star.\" John Waters cast you in his film \"Polyester.\" Divine plays - Divine, who is a 300-pound man who played the leading lady in a lot of John Waters movies, plays a very put-upon housewife who learns that her husband is secretly a pornographer. And you play the owner of - what? - an arthouse movie theater?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) They say for every boy and girl, there's just one love in this whole world. And I know I found mine. The heavenly touch of your embrace tells me no one could take your place ever in my heart"}
{"id": "628800873", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Tab Hunter", "title": "Remembering 1950s Hollywood Heartthrob Tab Hunter", "question_index": 33, "text": "An arthouse drive-in. That's right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Arthouse drive-in."}
{"id": "628800873", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Tab Hunter", "title": "Remembering 1950s Hollywood Heartthrob Tab Hunter", "question_index": 34, "text": "An arthouse drive-in. And you kind of seduce Divine with ulterior motives that she is not aware of. But you sweep her off her feet. And I thought I'd play a scene between the two of you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "628800873", "date": "2018-07-13", "guest": "Tab Hunter", "title": "Remembering 1950s Hollywood Heartthrob Tab Hunter", "question_index": 35, "text": "That's Tab Hunter and Divine in a scene from John Waters' film \"Polyester.\" Tab Hunter, what was it like for you to do this movie?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Todd Tomorrow) It's my new 'Vette."}
{"id": "630792401", "date": "2018-07-20", "guest": "Matthew Walker", "title": "Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In An Underslept State'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Matthew Walker, welcome to FRESH AIR It's a pleasure to have you here. So something unusual happened. I usually wake up like once or twice in the middle of the night. I've done that all my life. I've never understood how people can actually lie down and then just wake up the next morning without even having moved all night. But I slept till 5:30, which was kind of shocking, and then I had a great deal of difficulty falling back to sleep 'cause my alarm was set for 6:50. So on the one hand, I slept really well. And on the other hand, I didn't", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, editor of the website TV Worth Watching, sitting in for Terry Gross. Today's guest wants you to get more sleep, and he has some warnings about how not getting e"}
{"id": "630792401", "date": "2018-07-20", "guest": "Matthew Walker", "title": "Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In An Underslept State'", "question_index": 1, "text": ". Like, before 5:30, great. After 5:30, not great. So how did I...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, editor of the website TV Worth Watching, sitting in for Terry Gross. Today's guest wants you to get more sleep, and he has some warnings about how not getting e"}
{"id": "630792401", "date": "2018-07-20", "guest": "Matthew Walker", "title": "Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In An Underslept State'", "question_index": 2, "text": "You tell me. How did I sleep last night?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "..."}
{"id": "630792401", "date": "2018-07-20", "guest": "Matthew Walker", "title": "Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In An Underslept State'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Oh, no", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it depends on how long you were staying awake after that 5:30 morning awakening. And the advice, usually, by the way, is this - that you should not actually stay in bed for very long awake because "}
{"id": "630792401", "date": "2018-07-20", "guest": "Matthew Walker", "title": "Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In An Underslept State'", "question_index": 4, "text": ". You can tell I didn't sleep.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it depends on how long you were staying awake after that 5:30 morning awakening. And the advice, usually, by the way, is this - that you should not actually stay in bed for very long awake because "}
{"id": "630792401", "date": "2018-07-20", "guest": "Matthew Walker", "title": "Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In An Underslept State'", "question_index": 5, "text": "But here's the thing, and I'm sure everybody's experienced this. It's like you have maybe an hour, an hour and a half left to sleep. The clock is ticking. You know the time is running out. And if you don't fall asleep now or soon, it's going to be too late. But if you get up, you're automatically saying, I am sacrificing 10 to 20 minutes of the little amount of time I have left to sleep. I'm just going to, like, write that off. It would just make me feel utterly defeated and make me more anxious about not being able to sleep.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I will say nothing from this point forth."}
{"id": "630792401", "date": "2018-07-20", "guest": "Matthew Walker", "title": "Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In An Underslept State'", "question_index": 6, "text": "How did you sleep last night?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So what you're describing is that fearful rolodex of anxiety that happens when people wake up. You know, you start thinking, oh, my goodness, I've only got an hour and a half left on the clock, and th"}
{"id": "630792401", "date": "2018-07-20", "guest": "Matthew Walker", "title": "Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In An Underslept State'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Eight hours in bed every night - how do you do it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I actually slept quite well. I got back from a period in the U.K. last week, so I'm just starting to come to the tail end of my jetlag. But I had a very good night of sleep, had - I always give myself"}
{"id": "630792401", "date": "2018-07-20", "guest": "Matthew Walker", "title": "Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In An Underslept State'", "question_index": 8, "text": "I'm like 6 1/2 to seven hours. How many hours of sleep should I be getting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "..."}
{"id": "630792401", "date": "2018-07-20", "guest": "Matthew Walker", "title": "Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In An Underslept State'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Yeah, but most people don't have eight hours available to sleep. So if you're sleeping, say, 6 1/2 to seven hours, as I think a lot of adults do, how much are you depriving yourself of? I mean, what are you losing? What are your deficits because you're not sleeping enough?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the recommendation by the World Health Organization is eight hours, and most people don't put their head on the pillow and instantly fall asleep. It's not like a light switch. Falling asleep is lik"}
{"id": "630792401", "date": "2018-07-20", "guest": "Matthew Walker", "title": "Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In An Underslept State'", "question_index": 10, "text": "I just lost my train of thought for a second. I think I needed more sleep.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think the first general point to make from epidemiological studies across millions of people is the following - that short sleep predicts a shorter life. It predicts all cause mortality. So th"}
{"id": "630792401", "date": "2018-07-20", "guest": "Matthew Walker", "title": "Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In An Underslept State'", "question_index": 11, "text": "So I cheat on sleep during the week, and only get like 6 1/2 to seven hours. But on the weekend, I'll try to sleep like eight hours sometimes. Sometimes I'm in bed for nine hours, which is, like, I think, amazing. So am I making up for the deficits of the week?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm saying nothing, Terry. I am saying absolutely nothing."}
{"id": "630792401", "date": "2018-07-20", "guest": "Matthew Walker", "title": "Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In An Underslept State'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Do people of ages have different biological clocks - in the sense that young people seem to like to go to bed very late and then sleep very late? As people get older, they tend to go to bed earlier and get up earlier. Is that something biological?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So you're trying to sleep off a debt that you've lumbered your brain and body with during the week. And wouldn't it be lovely if sleep worked like that? Sadly, it doesn't. Sleep is not like the bank. "}
{"id": "630792401", "date": "2018-07-20", "guest": "Matthew Walker", "title": "Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In An Underslept State'", "question_index": 13, "text": "It's interesting that that's biological. And you can't say to somebody, oh, you're just staying up so late; you should be getting up earlier. They might not be wired to do that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is biological. And what you're describing is our 24-hour rhythm or what we call the circadian rhythm. And it undergoes this sort of dramatic set of changes across the lifespan. Sort of early in lif"}
{"id": "630792401", "date": "2018-07-20", "guest": "Matthew Walker", "title": "Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In An Underslept State'", "question_index": 14, "text": "OK, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Matthew Walker. He directs the Center for Human Sleep Science at the University of California, Berkeley. He's the author of the new book \"Why We Sleep.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They aren't. And it's not their fault. It is their genes. And I think we do a disservice to the owls in society because we think of them as not being productive, as perhaps being a little bit lazy. An"}
{"id": "630792401", "date": "2018-07-20", "guest": "Matthew Walker", "title": "Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In An Underslept State'", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Matthew Walker. He directs the Center for Human Sleep Science at the University of California, Berkeley, and he's the author of the new book \"Why We Sleep.\" Does the quality of sleep change as you get older, particularly as you get considerably older?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They aren't. And it's not their fault. It is their genes. And I think we do a disservice to the owls in society because we think of them as not being productive, as perhaps being a little bit lazy. An"}
{"id": "630792401", "date": "2018-07-20", "guest": "Matthew Walker", "title": "Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In An Underslept State'", "question_index": 16, "text": "For people who have trouble sleeping, whether it's a function of age or anxiety or pain or just they're not very talented at sleeping, a lot of those people turn to pills of one sort or another to help. So the pill might be an Ambien kind of pill or melatonin or, you know, some other over-the-counter herb or whatever. So let's talk about some of these options and see what you think of them. Let's start with melatonin. I want you to describe what melatonin is and what it's good for and what it's really not going to be very helpful with.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It does. And this is usually very depressing news for most of us, and as I am now advancing in my years. And what we know is firstly that the amount of sleep, the total amount of sleep that you get, s"}
{"id": "630792401", "date": "2018-07-20", "guest": "Matthew Walker", "title": "Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In An Underslept State'", "question_index": 17, "text": "What is it good for? When should you take melatonin if you're interested in taking it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Melatonin is actually a hormone that is released when darkness begins. And so during the day, melatonin is actually suppressed and is at low levels within the brain and the body. But as dusk starts to"}
{"id": "630792401", "date": "2018-07-20", "guest": "Matthew Walker", "title": "Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In An Underslept State'", "question_index": 18, "text": "What do you think of prescription sleeping pills? And I'll use Ambien as an example.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Melatonin can be useful if you are traveling between time zones. So if you're in a new time zone - let's say that I flew back home to England - and now my body clock is eight hours behind. It's on Cal"}
{"id": "630792401", "date": "2018-07-20", "guest": "Matthew Walker", "title": "Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In An Underslept State'", "question_index": 19, "text": "Our culture seems to run on caffeine. You know, like, coffee drinks are so popular, and so are those high-energy drinks that are just like little caffeine drinks. I mean,", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's interview with Matthew Walker. He's the author of the book \"Why We Sleep,\" which is now in paperback. Walker direc"}
{"id": "630792401", "date": "2018-07-20", "guest": "Matthew Walker", "title": "Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In An Underslept State'", "question_index": 20, "text": "I don't even know how much caffeine is in them. Tell us about how caffeine works in the body.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's interview with Matthew Walker. He's the author of the book \"Why We Sleep,\" which is now in paperback. Walker direc"}
{"id": "630792401", "date": "2018-07-20", "guest": "Matthew Walker", "title": "Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In An Underslept State'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Are you kidding me? Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Caffeine is - you're right - it's now, I think, at levels of abuse, we could suggest. It is the second most-traded commodity on the surface of the planet after oil..."}
{"id": "630792401", "date": "2018-07-20", "guest": "Matthew Walker", "title": "Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In An Underslept State'", "question_index": 22, "text": "You also write how contradictory the alcohol response is in terms of sleep. Like, if you're having wine not long before bed, the wine can help put you to sleep, but then it's going to wake you up during...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. And I think that that, to me, is perhaps one of the less scientific but most striking data points demonstrating how sleep deficient we have become throughout developed nations. Caffeine actually w"}
{"id": "630792401", "date": "2018-07-20", "guest": "Matthew Walker", "title": "Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In An Underslept State'", "question_index": 23, "text": "...The night. Yeah, explain that response.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Alcohol..."}
{"id": "630792401", "date": "2018-07-20", "guest": "Matthew Walker", "title": "Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In An Underslept State'", "question_index": 24, "text": "So one of the reasons why you keep telling us we need to be sleeping more, we need to be sleeping eight hours a night, is that sleep helps us remember things. It's good for memory. But it also helps us forget the things that we would just as soon forget", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Alcohol in for example wine or whiskey, that sort of classic nightcap, it actually doesn't put you to sleep faster. That's one of the most misunderstood aspects of alcohol. Alcohol, again, is a sedati"}
{"id": "630792401", "date": "2018-07-20", "guest": "Matthew Walker", "title": "Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In An Underslept State'", "question_index": 25, "text": ", so...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Alcohol in for example wine or whiskey, that sort of classic nightcap, it actually doesn't put you to sleep faster. That's one of the most misunderstood aspects of alcohol. Alcohol, again, is a sedati"}
{"id": "630792401", "date": "2018-07-20", "guest": "Matthew Walker", "title": "Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In An Underslept State'", "question_index": 26, "text": "...How - what goes on in our brain in terms of memory and forgetting as we sleep?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "630792401", "date": "2018-07-20", "guest": "Matthew Walker", "title": "Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In An Underslept State'", "question_index": 27, "text": "Is the brain too busy while we're awake to do the things that it does while we're sleeping?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sleep seems to provide a form of forgetting in at least two ways. One is that if information does not seem to be relevant or even if it's duplicate information, sleep will enhance that which is necess"}
{"id": "630792401", "date": "2018-07-20", "guest": "Matthew Walker", "title": "Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In An Underslept State'", "question_index": 28, "text": "You have people in your sleep lab. And you're imaging their brains as they sleep. When you're doing imaging while somebody's sleeping, are you able to tell when they're dreaming? And are there are times when the person thinks that they haven't had any dreams, but you know that they actually have?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The brain is certainly caught up with a vast variety of different aspects during waking consciousness. And I think the principal goal when it comes to learning and memory for wakefulness is informatio"}
{"id": "630792401", "date": "2018-07-20", "guest": "Matthew Walker", "title": "Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In An Underslept State'", "question_index": 29, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Matthew Walker. He's the director of the Center for Human Sleep Science at the University of California, Berkeley, and author of the new book \"Why We Sleep.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes on both counts. So we can be sitting in a control room many, many feet away from the individual, and just based on these beautiful brain waves that we can be seeing, we will know with high accurac"}
{"id": "630792401", "date": "2018-07-20", "guest": "Matthew Walker", "title": "Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In An Underslept State'", "question_index": 30, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Matthew Walker, the director of the Center for Human Sleep Science at the University of California, Berkeley, and author of the new book \"Why We Sleep.\" So one of the areas you've been researching is the correlation between sleep or lack of sleep and Alzheimer's disease. So what have you learned? Is there a correlation that you're finding?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes on both counts. So we can be sitting in a control room many, many feet away from the individual, and just based on these beautiful brain waves that we can be seeing, we will know with high accurac"}
{"id": "630792401", "date": "2018-07-20", "guest": "Matthew Walker", "title": "Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In An Underslept State'", "question_index": 31, "text": "Have you followed up with people who do have Alzheimer's and investigated whether they were good sleepers or not and whether that correlation seems to bear out in people who already have Alzheimer's?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's a strong relationship now between insufficient sleep and the mechanisms of Alzheimer's disease. Sadly, it's a two-way street as well that we've discovered. There was a remarkable finding sever"}
{"id": "630792401", "date": "2018-07-20", "guest": "Matthew Walker", "title": "Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In An Underslept State'", "question_index": 32, "text": "I certainly hope you have success with that research. I'd like to ask you to sum up for us some of the things we can do to improve the quantity and quality of our sleep. Judging from what you've said, we should be sleeping in a dark room because light interferes with sleep. Stay away from screens. We all know we're supposed to do that whether we do it or not.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's exactly what we're doing right now. We've been fortunate to receive grant funding to actually really dig down and do a deep dive into this issue. We are doing retrospective analyses to try and "}
{"id": "630792401", "date": "2018-07-20", "guest": "Matthew Walker", "title": "Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In An Underslept State'", "question_index": 33, "text": "What else can we be doing to make sure that we fall asleep and stay asleep?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's exactly what we're doing right now. We've been fortunate to receive grant funding to actually really dig down and do a deep dive into this issue. We are doing retrospective analyses to try and "}
{"id": "630792401", "date": "2018-07-20", "guest": "Matthew Walker", "title": "Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In An Underslept State'", "question_index": 34, "text": "I'm sure you've seen all the ads for those dual mattresses you can adjust like - you can adjust one side of the bed. And your partner or your spouse can adjust the other side of the bed differently", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You've hit on 1 of I think 5 tips for getting better sleep right now. The first is dark. We are a dark deprived society. So stay away from those screens and laptops as you've said, but also dim the li"}
{"id": "630792401", "date": "2018-07-20", "guest": "Matthew Walker", "title": "Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In An Underslept State'", "question_index": 35, "text": ". So the premise of all these mattresses and of the commercials is, gosh, it's really hard to share your bed with anybody and still get a good night's sleep. Here's one solution.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You've hit on 1 of I think 5 tips for getting better sleep right now. The first is dark. We are a dark deprived society. So stay away from those screens and laptops as you've said, but also dim the li"}
{"id": "630792401", "date": "2018-07-20", "guest": "Matthew Walker", "title": "Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In An Underslept State'", "question_index": 36, "text": "So in your experience, is sleeping with a partner or a spouse contraindicated for a good night's sleep?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You've hit on 1 of I think 5 tips for getting better sleep right now. The first is dark. We are a dark deprived society. So stay away from those screens and laptops as you've said, but also dim the li"}
{"id": "630792401", "date": "2018-07-20", "guest": "Matthew Walker", "title": "Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In An Underslept State'", "question_index": 37, "text": "I think that's true. Some people can't sleep at all - right - if the partner's not there. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not always. Some people actually sleep better when the significant other is with them. For other couples, it's the opposite."}
{"id": "630792401", "date": "2018-07-20", "guest": "Matthew Walker", "title": "Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In An Underslept State'", "question_index": 38, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "have described it as a sleep divorce, which I think is desperately negative."}
{"id": "630792401", "date": "2018-07-20", "guest": "Matthew Walker", "title": "Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In An Underslept State'", "question_index": 39, "text": "OK, think I'll go to sleep.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I don't want to say that. But if it leads to better sleep, I'm all for it. We also know that people who are getting sufficient sleep have a far healthier physical relationship. We know that men, f"}
{"id": "630792401", "date": "2018-07-20", "guest": "Matthew Walker", "title": "Sleep Scientist Warns Against Walking Through Life 'In An Underslept State'", "question_index": 40, "text": "Thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I don't want to say that. But if it leads to better sleep, I'm all for it. We also know that people who are getting sufficient sleep have a far healthier physical relationship. We know that men, f"}
{"id": "631452732", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Michael Arceneaux", "title": "Growing Up Black, Gay And Catholic In Texas, Memoirist Put His Faith In Beyonc\u00e9", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest Michael Arceneaux has written a new book whose title will give you an idea of his sense of humor. It's called \"I Can't Date Jesus: Love, Sex, Family, Race, And Other Reasons I've Put My Faith In Beyonce.\" It's a collection of personal essays about his early years growing up in Houston black, Catholic and gay. Arceneaux abandoned the Catholic Church about 16 years ago, in what he describes as an act of self-preservation after deciding he was no longer willing to be part of an institution that condemned him for who he was. Over time, he says he's tried to unlearn every damaging thing he's seen and heard about his identity. He writes for The Root and Essence and has an advice column on Into, which describes itself as a digital magazine for the modern queer world. Michael Arceneaux, welcome to FRESH AIR. So you were raised Catholic, and you say the traditions associated with the black church were different from the church traditions you grew up with. What were some of the differences?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "631452732", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Michael Arceneaux", "title": "Growing Up Black, Gay And Catholic In Texas, Memoirist Put His Faith In Beyonc\u00e9", "question_index": 1, "text": "Do you feel like you were left out of what is often considered to be a key part of the black experience in America?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "631452732", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Michael Arceneaux", "title": "Growing Up Black, Gay And Catholic In Texas, Memoirist Put His Faith In Beyonc\u00e9", "question_index": 2, "text": "So you write that, you know, you struggle with what it is that you do believe in, but you know you're not an atheist. Why - if you've given up basically on your religion, what's the difference between that and being an atheist?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I actually don't. I understand why a lot of people who kind of maybe miss certain parts maybe have that - they feel like they don't get all the blackness. But I've never struggled with being black. I "}
{"id": "631452732", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Michael Arceneaux", "title": "Growing Up Black, Gay And Catholic In Texas, Memoirist Put His Faith In Beyonc\u00e9", "question_index": 3, "text": "So when you realized you were gay, which was like really early on even though you didn't have the language for it, did you know early on like, OK, that means you'd be considered an outcast in the Catholic Church? Like, how old were you when you realized that your sexual orientation would not be accepted in your church?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If I ever reached what I think my lowest point with religion - at least struggling with organized religion, it was probably maybe an embracement of being agnostic. But I do believe there is something."}
{"id": "631452732", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Michael Arceneaux", "title": "Growing Up Black, Gay And Catholic In Texas, Memoirist Put His Faith In Beyonc\u00e9", "question_index": 4, "text": "Your first exposure to what it meant to be a gay man was when your uncle died of AIDS. You were still very young. And your father told you he died of AIDS because he was gay. Your mother told you he died of AIDS because he shot heroin. Who did you believe?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I picked it up very early from my mom. Again, I love my mom so much. But she - I remember the Catholic Leaven - I believe those newsletters that would come to our house. So I would see the languag"}
{"id": "631452732", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Michael Arceneaux", "title": "Growing Up Black, Gay And Catholic In Texas, Memoirist Put His Faith In Beyonc\u00e9", "question_index": 5, "text": "Yeah. Oh, one more thing about your mother - when she told you that your uncle actually died because he shot heroin, do you think she already knew that you were gay and wanted to protect you from the fear of AIDS? Or do you think that she thought like being gay was worse than shooting heroin, and she wanted to protect you from the fact that your uncle was gay?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So my dad didn't necessarily directly tell me. He just yelled a slur. And it's interesting. Thankfully, while I was writing, I had a very honest conversation with my sister. I later learned that that "}
{"id": "631452732", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Michael Arceneaux", "title": "Growing Up Black, Gay And Catholic In Texas, Memoirist Put His Faith In Beyonc\u00e9", "question_index": 6, "text": "But the thing is she picked up really early that you were probably gay. But when you actually came out to her - and you did this after writing, you know, an article that you were pretty sure she would see - she didn't accept it. So how do you kind of reconcile that she knew and was able to articulate it - although she withheld it from you, she knew really early on that you were gay, that that was just your nature. At the same time, she couldn't accept it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's interesting about my mom. I don't think she did the false equivalence. But I do think her belief in her religion steers so much of her thought process on things like this. So I think she le"}
{"id": "631452732", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Michael Arceneaux", "title": "Growing Up Black, Gay And Catholic In Texas, Memoirist Put His Faith In Beyonc\u00e9", "question_index": 7, "text": "I've been wondering that too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That initial revelation and her reaction was very painful to me. As to why she didn't bring it up sooner, I think - my mom comes from - it's a very kind of very older black, particularly Southern kind"}
{"id": "631452732", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Michael Arceneaux", "title": "Growing Up Black, Gay And Catholic In Texas, Memoirist Put His Faith In Beyonc\u00e9", "question_index": 8, "text": "How your parents will deal with your book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, so..."}
{"id": "631452732", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Michael Arceneaux", "title": "Growing Up Black, Gay And Catholic In Texas, Memoirist Put His Faith In Beyonc\u00e9", "question_index": 9, "text": "So you mentioned your mother really hates the title of your book. The title of your book is \"I Can't Date Jesus.\" Why did you give it that title? What does that title mean to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My dad is not going to read it. I know that he's not going to read it. He might hear something. And at best, he'll go through my sister to maybe communicate a concern. For me and my dad now, we've kin"}
{"id": "631452732", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Michael Arceneaux", "title": "Growing Up Black, Gay And Catholic In Texas, Memoirist Put His Faith In Beyonc\u00e9", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So that's the thing. Like, despite my own kind of misgivings or concerns, like, doubts about religion, I really do respect the role that faith plays in people. I think that's one reason why so many "}
{"id": "631452732", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Michael Arceneaux", "title": "Growing Up Black, Gay And Catholic In Texas, Memoirist Put His Faith In Beyonc\u00e9", "question_index": 11, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Michael Arceneaux, and he's a writer and advice columnist. And now he has a new memoir, called, \"I Can't Date Jesus: Love, Sex, Family, Race, And Other Reasons I've Put My Faith In Beyonce.\" We're going to take a short break, and we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...That I might die and maybe go to hell, which is just - I mean, I'm sure that makes all the sense in the world to her and quite a few people. But it just sounds so ridiculous to me. So I'm like, so "}
{"id": "631452732", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Michael Arceneaux", "title": "Growing Up Black, Gay And Catholic In Texas, Memoirist Put His Faith In Beyonc\u00e9", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Michael Arceneaux. He's a writer who contributes to The Root and Essence. He's an advice columnist for the site Into. And he has a new memoir called \"I Can't Date Jesus: Love, Sex, Family, Race, And Other Reasons I've Put My Faith In Beyonce.\" Beyonce means a lot to you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...That I might die and maybe go to hell, which is just - I mean, I'm sure that makes all the sense in the world to her and quite a few people. But it just sounds so ridiculous to me. So I'm like, so "}
{"id": "631452732", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Michael Arceneaux", "title": "Growing Up Black, Gay And Catholic In Texas, Memoirist Put His Faith In Beyonc\u00e9", "question_index": 13, "text": "...And, you know, kind of always has since the Destiny's Child era. So you know, at the risk of stating the obvious, what does she mean to you? And what did she mean to you when you were young and trying to figure out who you were and to understand your own sexuality?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, she does."}
{"id": "631452732", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Michael Arceneaux", "title": "Growing Up Black, Gay And Catholic In Texas, Memoirist Put His Faith In Beyonc\u00e9", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, I think you've not only testified to the importance of Beyonce in your life but also to the importance of popular culture in the lives of a lot of us in helping us understand ourselves and the world we live in. So thanks for that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, Terry, I'm about to testify. Beyonce is, as I write in the book, my lord and gyrator - the end, the beginning, the body roll. She's everything to me. Initially, what I just loved about Beyonce was"}
{"id": "631452732", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Michael Arceneaux", "title": "Growing Up Black, Gay And Catholic In Texas, Memoirist Put His Faith In Beyonc\u00e9", "question_index": 15, "text": "My guest is Michael Arceneaux, author of the new memoir \"I Can't Date Jesus: Love, Sex, Family, Race, And Other Reasons I've Put My Faith In Beyonce.\" After a break, we'll talk about how coming of age during the AIDS epidemic left him afraid of sex and why it took him a long time to get over that fear. And we'll listen back to an interview with Adrian Cronauer, who Robin Williams portrayed in the film \"Good Morning, Vietnam.\" Cronauer died last week. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "631452732", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Michael Arceneaux", "title": "Growing Up Black, Gay And Catholic In Texas, Memoirist Put His Faith In Beyonc\u00e9", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Michael Arceneaux, author of the new book \"I Can't Date Jesus: Love, Sex, Family, Race, And Other Reasons I've Put My Faith In Beyonce.\" It's a collection of personal essays about his early years growing up in Houston black, Catholic, and gay. He left the church about 16 years ago, unwilling to remain in an institution that didn't accept him for who he was. He writes for The Root and Essence and has an advice column on the site INTO, which describes itself as a digital magazine for the modern queer world. So we've talked about how when you were young, realizing you were gay, not having people you could really talk to about it, you turned to popular culture for, you know, images of gay men and for a better understanding of that and for - just for things you could really just connect to on some deep level. You came of age during the era of HIV. Your uncle, the first person who you knew of who was gay, died of AIDS, so you just grew up naturally scared of what consequences sex could have for you. You had an article a few years ago, from, like, 2014, that you've incorporated into your book that was headlined then, \"At 30, I'm Finally Tackling My Intense Fear Of Sex.\" Can you talk a little bit about what it was like to grow up with the specter of AIDS as you were coming of age sexually and wanting to connect with people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "631452732", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Michael Arceneaux", "title": "Growing Up Black, Gay And Catholic In Texas, Memoirist Put His Faith In Beyonc\u00e9", "question_index": 17, "text": "So did you have anybody to tell you about safe sex when you were coming of age sexually?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just immediately saw sex as something that could kill you. And the inconvenient truth is if - as a queer black male, there's still very much an HIV/AIDS crisis for people who look like me. So it's s"}
{"id": "631452732", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Michael Arceneaux", "title": "Growing Up Black, Gay And Catholic In Texas, Memoirist Put His Faith In Beyonc\u00e9", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mom at 12, as I was casually walking into the kitchen to grab something to eat and I think - was it - it wasn't \"Donahue\" - \"Oprah\" - one of those - she's just like, yeah, you know, she was explain"}
{"id": "631452732", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Michael Arceneaux", "title": "Growing Up Black, Gay And Catholic In Texas, Memoirist Put His Faith In Beyonc\u00e9", "question_index": 19, "text": "Was she telling you about condoms for safety or for birth control?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But yes, she definitely let me know how to have sex. I just - I think we just both knew it wasn't with the person she wanted me to have sex with eventually."}
{"id": "631452732", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Michael Arceneaux", "title": "Growing Up Black, Gay And Catholic In Texas, Memoirist Put His Faith In Beyonc\u00e9", "question_index": 20, "text": "Well, she's Catholic. Maybe that was not for birth control.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mom isn't..."}
{"id": "631452732", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Michael Arceneaux", "title": "Growing Up Black, Gay And Catholic In Texas, Memoirist Put His Faith In Beyonc\u00e9", "question_index": 21, "text": "So what do you think her motives were in showing you the condom?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my mom is also an RN who takes care of new mothers, so she sees plenty of moms of all ages, so that's always on her mind - no grandbabies around her house, at least not from a teenage boy."}
{"id": "631452732", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Michael Arceneaux", "title": "Growing Up Black, Gay And Catholic In Texas, Memoirist Put His Faith In Beyonc\u00e9", "question_index": 22, "text": "So coming of age and being scared to engage in sex initially because of your fear - your understandable fear - of AIDS, did that also prevent you from being intimate with people you wanted to be intimate with emotionally?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "631452732", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Michael Arceneaux", "title": "Growing Up Black, Gay And Catholic In Texas, Memoirist Put His Faith In Beyonc\u00e9", "question_index": 23, "text": "So when you did start having intimate relationships with other gay men, you write that you lost your virginity after drinking a lot.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. So one thing I've really realized, like, particularly around the age of 30, 31, is that I kept attracting unattainable people because I myself was unattainable. I was saying that I wanted to be w"}
{"id": "631452732", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Michael Arceneaux", "title": "Growing Up Black, Gay And Catholic In Texas, Memoirist Put His Faith In Beyonc\u00e9", "question_index": 24, "text": "And you lost it in a way that you felt you were, you know, manipulated or forced into. I'm not sure which word to use. And I think it's fair to say you felt a little violated. Correct me if I'm wrong.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "631452732", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Michael Arceneaux", "title": "Growing Up Black, Gay And Catholic In Texas, Memoirist Put His Faith In Beyonc\u00e9", "question_index": 25, "text": "But, you know, it's just so sad, you know, that you were so afraid of sex, and then you lose your virginity after - you know, OK, you did some drinking, but this man was not sensitive to what you wanted. And so this was your first time, and you felt violated and you felt like it wasn't safe either.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I definitely felt violated. I think that's an accurate description. I've actually seen the guy in New York, and I'm pleasant, but I will say about two years ago, there was a moment where he touched me"}
{"id": "631452732", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Michael Arceneaux", "title": "Growing Up Black, Gay And Catholic In Texas, Memoirist Put His Faith In Beyonc\u00e9", "question_index": 26, "text": "In June of 2015, you wrote an essay that was titled \"I'm A Black Gay Man Learning To Be Okay With Dating People Who Don't Look Like Me.\" And you write about that as well in your new memoir, \"I Can't Date Jesus.\" Can you elaborate on what you mean when you say dating people who don't look like me?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It was very anticlimactic, to say the least. And it actually kind of delayed my journey into kind of fully embracing pleasure and sex and - for at least a couple more years. It kind of mangled w"}
{"id": "631452732", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Michael Arceneaux", "title": "Growing Up Black, Gay And Catholic In Texas, Memoirist Put His Faith In Beyonc\u00e9", "question_index": 27, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is writer Michael Arceneaux. He has a new memoir called \"I Can't Date Jesus: Love, Sex, Family, Race, And Other Reasons I've Put My Faith In Beyonce.\" We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm very adamant about improving the image of queer black men and probably to a fault in that - well, for the most part, I was only social - I was really around black people, so that's all I saw. That"}
{"id": "631452732", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Michael Arceneaux", "title": "Growing Up Black, Gay And Catholic In Texas, Memoirist Put His Faith In Beyonc\u00e9", "question_index": 28, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is writer Michael Arceneaux. His new memoir is called \"I Can't Date Jesus: Love, Sex, Family, Race, And Other Reasons I've Put My Faith In Beyonce.\" You know, you write in your book that when you were young, you were - what? - overweight, a little chubby. I'm not sure what word to use.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm very adamant about improving the image of queer black men and probably to a fault in that - well, for the most part, I was only social - I was really around black people, so that's all I saw. That"}
{"id": "631452732", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Michael Arceneaux", "title": "Growing Up Black, Gay And Catholic In Texas, Memoirist Put His Faith In Beyonc\u00e9", "question_index": 29, "text": "OK. You're not now. I've seen you on TV recently.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. No, I was fat. Yeah, I was fat. It's fine."}
{"id": "631452732", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Michael Arceneaux", "title": "Growing Up Black, Gay And Catholic In Texas, Memoirist Put His Faith In Beyonc\u00e9", "question_index": 30, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I try to work out. I have to always do pushups because the sins of my chubbiness - still there. Like, I used to literally look like I used to need a bra. But keep going. I'm sorry."}
{"id": "631452732", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Michael Arceneaux", "title": "Growing Up Black, Gay And Catholic In Texas, Memoirist Put His Faith In Beyonc\u00e9", "question_index": 31, "text": "How - so how did body image affect you when you were, you know, first starting to be with other men - or wanting to but reluctant to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My body dysmorphia took over. Sorry."}
{"id": "631452732", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Michael Arceneaux", "title": "Growing Up Black, Gay And Catholic In Texas, Memoirist Put His Faith In Beyonc\u00e9", "question_index": 32, "text": "I can't even see you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I did not want to take my shirt off, which is, like, not how you're supposed to do it. A lot of gay men are really fit and not - and I know not all gay men, but a lot of us are not kind to each ot"}
{"id": "631452732", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Michael Arceneaux", "title": "Growing Up Black, Gay And Catholic In Texas, Memoirist Put His Faith In Beyonc\u00e9", "question_index": 33, "text": "...Because we're in separate studios. But I'm sure you weren't working out to impress me. You were just doing your vigilant workout.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I did not want to take my shirt off, which is, like, not how you're supposed to do it. A lot of gay men are really fit and not - and I know not all gay men, but a lot of us are not kind to each ot"}
{"id": "631452732", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Michael Arceneaux", "title": "Growing Up Black, Gay And Catholic In Texas, Memoirist Put His Faith In Beyonc\u00e9", "question_index": 34, "text": "Do you find it validating to be a writer and frame your experiences in the way you want to, as opposed to having other people frame your life in the way that they see you? It just - is it empowering?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. You never know."}
{"id": "631452732", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Michael Arceneaux", "title": "Growing Up Black, Gay And Catholic In Texas, Memoirist Put His Faith In Beyonc\u00e9", "question_index": 35, "text": "OK. You went to Howard University, a historically black college. So how did that work for you, you know, being in a historically black college?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I will say part of the journey in getting this book to be a real thing was that I was having many meetings with lovely people who would say all these nice things and then tell my agent, I like everyth"}
{"id": "631452732", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Michael Arceneaux", "title": "Growing Up Black, Gay And Catholic In Texas, Memoirist Put His Faith In Beyonc\u00e9", "question_index": 36, "text": "You still have student debt.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I love Howard University now. I did not initially like it because my reaction - well, so I'm from Houston, but not from a nice part. And I remember one girl specifically saying, oh, my God, you went t"}
{"id": "631452732", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Michael Arceneaux", "title": "Growing Up Black, Gay And Catholic In Texas, Memoirist Put His Faith In Beyonc\u00e9", "question_index": 37, "text": "How oppressive is that in terms of driving what you need to do, what kind of writing you need to do, who you need to write for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, plenty. I have private student loans, so they are the bane of my existence."}
{"id": "631452732", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Michael Arceneaux", "title": "Growing Up Black, Gay And Catholic In Texas, Memoirist Put His Faith In Beyonc\u00e9", "question_index": 38, "text": "What's one of the things you most want out of life now that you don't yet have?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It dictates a lot of my career choices. It has actually, to be honest, somewhat spoiled even this moment. And my friends have been very adamant about not allowing it to. And I'm trying to pull myself "}
{"id": "631452732", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Michael Arceneaux", "title": "Growing Up Black, Gay And Catholic In Texas, Memoirist Put His Faith In Beyonc\u00e9", "question_index": 39, "text": "So do you see your book as a step forward in creating culture, not just critiquing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Broadly, happiness. And by happiness, I mean security, a partner - well, actually, let me start off with a boo that maybe becomes a partnership - and to create culture, not just critique it. I think t"}
{"id": "631452732", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Michael Arceneaux", "title": "Growing Up Black, Gay And Catholic In Texas, Memoirist Put His Faith In Beyonc\u00e9", "question_index": 40, "text": "Well, Michael Arceneaux, I wish you good luck with your writing, and thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Again, I really respect the art of culture criticism, but I've always wanted more. And I think this is my first real opportunity to show people who I am, how I think, what my humor is like, what "}
{"id": "631452732", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Michael Arceneaux", "title": "Growing Up Black, Gay And Catholic In Texas, Memoirist Put His Faith In Beyonc\u00e9", "question_index": 41, "text": "Michael Arceneaux is the author of the new collection of personal essays \"I Can't Date Jesus: Love, Sex, Family, Race, And Other Reasons I've Put My Faith In Beyonce.\" After we take a short break, we'll listen back to an interview with Adrian Cronauer, who Robin Williams portrayed in the film \"Good Morning, Vietnam.\" Cronauer died last week. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me. It has been such an honor and a pleasure."}
{"id": "631512031", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "Remembering Adrian Cronauer, The DJ Who Inspired 'Good Morning Vietnam'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "631512031", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "Remembering Adrian Cronauer, The DJ Who Inspired 'Good Morning Vietnam'", "question_index": 1, "text": "That's Robin Williams in the 1987 film \"Good Morning, Vietnam\" playing a fictionalized version of Adrian Cronauer. Cronauer died last Wednesday at the age of 79. In 1965, during the war in Vietnam, he was a DJ in Saigon on Armed Forces Radio hosting a Top 40 radio show called Dawn Buster in which he signed on each morning with the now-famous words, good morning, Vietnam. After returning to the States, he continued working in broadcasting. But with the money he earned from the movie, he went to law school. I spoke with him in early 1988 when he was a second-year law student at the University of Pennsylvania. He went on to become active in veterans' causes and served as an adviser to the State Department's Prisoner of War/Missing in Action Office. I asked him what the Armed Forces Radio station in Saigon sounded like when he got there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Adrian Cronauer) Good morning, Vietnam. Hey, this is not a test. This is rock 'n' roll. Time to rock it from the delta to the DMZ. Is that me, or does that sound like an Elvis Presley movie? Viva "}
{"id": "631512031", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "Remembering Adrian Cronauer, The DJ Who Inspired 'Good Morning Vietnam'", "question_index": 2, "text": "How did you sign on the first morning that you did your show?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If you've seen the film, you'll notice at the very beginning there was a very dull, dry, boring, soporific announcement about how to get your hold baggage if you'd lost your duffel bag or your trunk o"}
{"id": "631512031", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "Remembering Adrian Cronauer, The DJ Who Inspired 'Good Morning Vietnam'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Did you get an immediate reaction from the soldiers who were listening to your show?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then I would say, good morning, Vietnam, and then start into the program that way."}
{"id": "631512031", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "Remembering Adrian Cronauer, The DJ Who Inspired 'Good Morning Vietnam'", "question_index": 4, "text": "What did you play the most when you were on the air?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. The reaction that's shown in the film is way overblown. We did not get mailbags full of letters and cards, and we did not have a bank of phones taking requests. First of all, there was nobody - no"}
{"id": "631512031", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "Remembering Adrian Cronauer, The DJ Who Inspired 'Good Morning Vietnam'", "question_index": 5, "text": "In the movie, the Robin Williams version of Adrian Cronauer is censored when he wants to read the real news that comes across the wire. All the news that comes over the wire is first presented to censors. And in the movie, the character witnesses a bombing at a restaurant that a lot of the Army men hang out in, and he's not allowed to mention that on the air. Similar things happened to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Whatever happened to be currently popular, again, looking at what were the popular songs in the States and assuming that the GIs who came over from the States would want to hear what's popular back at"}
{"id": "631512031", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "Remembering Adrian Cronauer, The DJ Who Inspired 'Good Morning Vietnam'", "question_index": 6, "text": "So you didn't defy the order and then go on the air, right", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "On the subject of censorship, the movie is very accurate, except in one small detail. We did not have censors on premises at the stations. It was done by phone. But there was indeed a restaurant calle"}
{"id": "631512031", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "Remembering Adrian Cronauer, The DJ Who Inspired 'Good Morning Vietnam'", "question_index": 7, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "On the subject of censorship, the movie is very accurate, except in one small detail. We did not have censors on premises at the stations. It was done by phone. But there was indeed a restaurant calle"}
{"id": "631512031", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "Remembering Adrian Cronauer, The DJ Who Inspired 'Good Morning Vietnam'", "question_index": 8, "text": "When you were on the air, were there any signs in the control room that there was actually a war going on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I did not go and lock myself in the studio and put it on anyway. No. In fact, there are a lot of things in that movie that Robin does - if I had actually done them, I would have been court martial"}
{"id": "631512031", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "Remembering Adrian Cronauer, The DJ Who Inspired 'Good Morning Vietnam'", "question_index": 9, "text": "You were in Vietnam in 1965. And that was a year that the war really escalated. What were some of the things that you saw that made you realize that the war was really changing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was basically a traditional, ordinary, run-of-the-mill radio station control room. The only real reminder of the war was the fact that on the console beside the turntables was a loaded .45. Over in"}
{"id": "631512031", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "Remembering Adrian Cronauer, The DJ Who Inspired 'Good Morning Vietnam'", "question_index": 10, "text": "What was your reaction the first time you saw the completed movie?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I got to Saigon in May of '65, it was a sleepy, little French colonial town. And in one year's time, I saw it turn into a nightmare. The massive influx of American personnel, equipment, armament,"}
{"id": "631512031", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "Remembering Adrian Cronauer, The DJ Who Inspired 'Good Morning Vietnam'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Well, Adrian Cronauer, I want to thank you very much for talking with me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For about five minutes or so, it was difficult to get used to the idea that, well, that's Adrian Cronauer up there, but I'm Adrian Cronauer. But he's me, but I'm here. And then finally, I just settled"}
{"id": "631512031", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "Remembering Adrian Cronauer, The DJ Who Inspired 'Good Morning Vietnam'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Adrian Cronauer, recorded in 1988 after the release of the film \"Good Morning, Vietnam,\" in which Robin Williams played a fictionalized version of Cronauer. Cronauer died Wednesday. He was 79. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, can we eat meat ethically? We'll get a resounding yes from my guest, Camas Davis. After working for years as a restaurant reviewer and an editor, she apprenticed as a butcher on a family-run small farm and slaughterhouse in France. Then she founded a program to teach people about conscientious slaughtering and to inspire responsible meat production and consumption. She has a new memoir. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My pleasure."}
{"id": "631512031", "date": "2018-07-23", "guest": "Robin Williams", "title": "Remembering Adrian Cronauer, The DJ Who Inspired 'Good Morning Vietnam'", "question_index": 13, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our senior producer is Roberta Shorrock. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My pleasure."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The belief that homosexuality is a sin and that you can be healed of this sin with the help of Jesus is the premise of Christian gay conversion therapy. The new film \"The Miseducation Of Cameron Post\" is set in the early '90s at a fictional residential gay conversion therapy program called God's Promise where teenagers are sent by their parents or guardians usually against the will of the teenager. Once arriving at God's Promise, the teens are called disciples and are forced to conform to rigid rules. Their communication with the outside world is cut off for several months. And they have to agree that all sexual behavior outside of marriage between a man and a woman is a sin. I have two guests. Desiree Akhavan directed and co-wrote the new film. Emily Danforth wrote the young adult novel the film was adapted from. The novel, also called \"The Miseducation Of Cameron Post,\" was first published in 2012. Let's start with a scene from the film. Cameron, the main character played by Chloe Grace Moretz, has been sent to God's Promise after she was discovered making out with her girlfriend. In this scene, soon after she's arrived God's Promise, she's been invited by Reverend Rick, played by John Gallagher Jr., to talk with him over a game of pingpong. Rick is one of the people who runs God's Promise. He considers himself ex-gay, having been, quote, \"cured of homosexuality\" with the help of his older sister who founded and directs God's Promise.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 1, "text": "Desiree Akhavan, Emily Danforth, welcome to FRESH AIR. Emily, since you wrote the novel that the movie is based on, let me start with you. Why did you want to write about gay conversion centers in the early '90s?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Reverend Rick) It was God, Cameron. I asked for his help, and he gave it to me in the form of those allies. I was so deeply unhappy, but I didn't think I was worth saving. And I wonder if you've a"}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 2, "text": "You know, it's interesting to me you perceive the threat of like turning you into a gay conversion therapy center. You perceive the threat as coming from your peers, your fellow eighth graders, not from the adults. And that culture, I think, encouraged snitching on people you suspected were gay. Did you feel like your friends were also potential snitches?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "First of all, thank you so much for talking to us both. Gay conversion therapy loomed large in the landscape of my life as a closeted teenager growing up much like Cameron does in the novel in rural r"}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 3, "text": "Did you want Jesus to heal you from being gay when you were in middle school?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, I think - it's so strange for me now to look back because even by junior, senior year, that was not my peer group. But I absolutely kind of went right in to what wa"}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 4, "text": "I think the environment that you create at the gay conversion center is what's sometimes called a total environment where like everything in it is controlled. And the attempt is to control your mind, too. And everything is for Jesus. Even the aerobics exercises that they watch are Jesus-centered aerobics. It's a blessercize (ph), not an exercise. And I just want to play the song that's sung in this blessercize video.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think that I did. I wanted to be accepted. I mean, I think like most middle school kids, I wanted to feel OK about myself. I don't think that I wanted Jesus to take this thing away. I mean, I "}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 5, "text": "UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character) Let's engage in some cardiovascular fitness for the Lord. Ready? UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character, singing) It's going to be fun to blessercize with Jesus, to be fit for him in every way. He will bless my body, soul and spirit and keep you with him every day. I'm going to sing praise, Hallelujah. My body's growing firm and strong. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character) You know what we're doing here? we're developing our inner person. You are heading toward Godliness, you see, in every area of your life. And that takes some work.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think that I did. I wanted to be accepted. I mean, I think like most middle school kids, I wanted to feel OK about myself. I don't think that I wanted Jesus to take this thing away. I mean, I "}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 6, "text": "OK. Emily, was there a blessercize video you based this on or something similar?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think that I did. I wanted to be accepted. I mean, I think like most middle school kids, I wanted to feel OK about myself. I don't think that I wanted Jesus to take this thing away. I mean, I "}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 7, "text": "But it's real. But it's real.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just want to make it clear that Emily had written this amazing Tandie Campbell (ph) character, this jazzercise for Jesus icon. And we were going to shoot a video, but then my co-writer and producer "}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 8, "text": "You know, at the beginning of the movie, your main character is in a Bible study class. And the adult leading the class is saying, you know, as adults, we're trying to undo the things we did when we were your age. You're at an age when you're especially vulnerable to evil. And you won't see it now or tomorrow, but what feels like fun is actually the enemy. And that enemy is closing a noose around your neck. Did either of you hear adults telling you that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did not make up blessercize. I mean, that - what you're saying, that total environment, I mean, I think that's a lot of what I was adopting. I went only to Christian rock concerts for those first co"}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 9, "text": "Violent in what respect?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't hear adults telling me that. But when I was doing research for this, that was from a sermon I heard. It was part of a much longer, very passionate, very violent speech."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 10, "text": "But, you know, this sermon isn't even just about homosexuality. It's about like all pleasure, the things that give you pleasure, they're sins. So it's kind of like cutting off the possibility of pleasure because it's evil. And I think - yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was for kids. It was for teens. And the way this man was criminalizing instincts of children felt violent to me. And the whole film while we were making it, like the last - no spoiler alerts here, "}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 11, "text": "Yeah. Well, the way you're describing it, it's taking, like - the gay conversion is taking a legitimate form of therapy and group therapy and using it to fight who you are, not to bring out who you are. And it's doing it for harm, and not for your own good. So that's part of your doorway in, is having undergone a group therapy yourself, but feeling like it was a very positive thing, not a destructive thing. But, you know, in the gay conversion centers, what's really, like, unusual, inexplicable in a way, is that these conversion centers, the residential centers, they're trying to convert gay and lesbian kids from being gays and lesbians by surrounding them with other gays and lesbians...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm sorry to cut you off. But as I was co-writing the adaptation, I realized that everything about this world reminded me so much of my time in a rehabilitation center. I had spent time in an outpatie"}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 12, "text": "...And giving them, like, gay and lesbian roommates. And it's like, maybe that's not the finest way of going about it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 14, "text": "My guests are Desiree Akhavan, who directed and co-wrote the new film \"The Miseducation Of Cameron Post,\" and Emily Danforth, who wrote the novel the film is adapted from. We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. And that's so much a part of the novel. Again, when it was set is that Cam doesn't know any other - certainly out queer kids, right? I mean, she's desperately querying any sort of film tha"}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. My guests are Desiree Akhavan, who directed and co-wrote the new movie \"The Miseducation Of Cameron Post,\" and Emily Danforth, who wrote the novel the film is adapted from. The story is set at a gay conversion therapy residential center for teens. I want to play another brief scene from the new movie \"The Miseducation of Cameron Post.\" And in this scene, the main character Cameron, Cam, played by Chloe Grace Moretz, is being oriented to the gay conversion group God's Promise by the woman who runs the program, Dr. Lydia Marsh. And she's played by Jennifer Ehle. And she speaks first.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. And that's so much a part of the novel. Again, when it was set is that Cam doesn't know any other - certainly out queer kids, right? I mean, she's desperately querying any sort of film tha"}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 16, "text": "What I like about that scene is that it's clear that the Cameron character is too young to have a firm sense of her identity, and what she has as an identity is being drummed out of her. Do you want to talk about writing that line, Emily, about like, I don't think of myself as anything?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Dr. Lydia Marsh) You should think of yourself as a Christian."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 17, "text": "OK. Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I was going to say, this is kind of a genius..."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 18, "text": "You wrote the screenplay, Desiree. Yeah. Go ahead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I remember this specifically, actually."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 19, "text": "What were the worst consequences you each learned about, consequences for teenagers who were in these gay conversion residential centers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One thing I want to say about the character of Lydia Marsh is, at least in the novel, she was very informed by a woman named doctor - a doctor is questionable - Elizabeth Moberly (ph), who gets a lot "}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 20, "text": "That's one of the gay conversion groups.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely suicide, I mean, either in the facility itself or after having undergone treatment and then gone home, other kinds of self-harm certainly, living a life of denial. I mean, I got a letter ye"}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 21, "text": "Desiree, how did you go about casting the teenagers in this? Did you want to make sure that a certain number of the teenagers were really gay?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It was an umbrella organization for all these gay conversion centers and preachers which has since disbanded. But she said he went to the conferences and, you know, essentially, he's 50 years ol"}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 22, "text": "Was that an issue at all? 'Cause it seems to be an issue in casting now. You know, I'm thinking of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think..."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 23, "text": "...Like, Scarlett Johansson being pressured to, like, step down from her role as trans in a forthcoming film.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 24, "text": "That's a really good point. Like, unless...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To me, that's completely different. I don't think it's appropriate as a director to ask teen actors what their sexuality is. It's - I mean, the cast..."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 25, "text": "...Unless they're out - like, are you gay enough to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 26, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I know."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 27, "text": "Emily, the novel \"The Miseducation Of Cameron Post\" is dedicated to your parents. When you were coming out, were your parents supportive of you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "People always ask me. Like, I get a lot of questions about this, and it's like don't forget these are all teenagers. It was a set of teens, and it's not my place to ask them who they prefer. And I thi"}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 28, "text": "My guests are Desiree Akhavan, who directed and co-wrote the new film \"The Miseducation Of Cameron Post,\" and Emily Danforth who wrote the novel the film is adapted from. There's plenty more to talk about after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What's interesting is that - like, this film is about gay conversion therapy, and it's specifically about the topic of coming out. And I'm queer, and I had to come out. My family - both my parents are"}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Desiree Akhavan, the director and co-writer of the new film \"The Miseducation Of Cameron Post,\" and Emily Danforth who wrote the novel the film is based on which is also called \"The Miseducation Of Cameron Post.\" The story is set in the early 90s at a Christian gay-conversion residential center where gay teens are sent by their parents or guardians. At the center, the teens are required to accept that homosexuality is a sin and to cleanse themselves of that sin by finding Jesus. Desiree, your parents are from Iran. They moved here in 1980 shortly after the Iranian revolution that led to an Islamist fundamentalist state. And you were born in 1984, so not long after your parents moved here. So what were the Iranian values about homosexuality that they were surrounded by in Iran, and how did that translate when they came to the U.S.?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What's interesting is that - like, this film is about gay conversion therapy, and it's specifically about the topic of coming out. And I'm queer, and I had to come out. My family - both my parents are"}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 30, "text": "Homosexuality didn't exist?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It didn't exist. It..."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 31, "text": "Wow. That said, if someone does come out as homosexual in Iran, is that against the law? Would they be arrested?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And they were like, wait, what? What are you talking about? That's not a thing."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 32, "text": "Would there be, like, official consequences for that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 33, "text": "So the fact that you could be stoned to death for being homosexual in Iran, do you think that - even though Iran is in denial on one level about the existence of homosexuality, how do you think that knowledge affected your parents and your own view of homosexuality?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Death by stoning. I mean, if you're caught - I wish I knew the language - but if you were caught being gay in Iran, you can be killed."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 34, "text": "What was your reaction to that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's just unacceptable. It's just a sickness. And I feel really privileged to know unconditional love. And I didn't quite understand what that was until I came out and I tested it. And I knew what it "}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 35, "text": "You know, what you were just saying - it's like you were or maybe still are defining acting out your own sexual orientation as bisexual - that that is selfish.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's so hard because I think growing up in America makes - or it made me very - I don't know if self-indulgent is the right word. I put myself first, and I see it in my brother. He does not put himsel"}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 36, "text": "You still feel like it's selfish to do that because it might hurt your family? It's not going to hurt them - like they're not going to be stoned to death. They're not going to be imprisoned, that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, for sure."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 37, "text": "You know, like, you're not in Iran where there's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 38, "text": "...Going to be, like, secret police who are extra-patrolling them because...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 39, "text": "So, Emily, my last question for you. What is it like to see this...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's elbowing out more space for yourself. And, you know, my mother was taught to be as small as possible and to take up as little room as possible and to make everything convenient for the pe"}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 40, "text": "...Movie adaptation of your novel? How do you feel it speaks to the cultural moment we're in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 41, "text": "Well, Emily, thank you so much for talking with us. Emily Danforth is the author of the novel \"The Miseducation Of Cameron Post,\" which is adapted into a new movie by the same name co-written and directed by my other guest Desiree Akhavan. And, Desiree, I'm going to ask you to stick around 'cause I want to talk about some other work that you've done. And, Emily, just thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One, conversion therapy is in the news again obviously. And just yesterday, for instance, Delaware became the 14th state to thankfully pass a law sort of forbidding it when applied to teenagers. And t"}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 42, "text": "OK. So we're going to be back after a very short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much. Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 43, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Desiree Akhavan, who directed and co-wrote the new film \"The Miseducation Of Cameron Post,\" which is adapted from a novel by Emily Danforth. So Desiree, as we talked about before, your parents emigrated from Iran in 1980, shortly after the Iranian revolution. So you grew up in New Jersey and in Rockland County, N.Y. You went to college at NYU?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much. Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 44, "text": "And I think it was during grad school that you did a web series called \"The Slope\"...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I went to grad school at NYU."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 45, "text": "...About a couple in Park Slope.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 46, "text": "And I'm going to play a scene from that and then talk about how strange it must have been to do this with your actual...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I co-created it with my girlfriend at the time, Ingrid Jungermann."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 47, "text": "...With your actual girlfriend. So you and your girlfriend, played by your actual girlfriend of the time, Ingrid Jungermann, play a lesbian couple living in Park Slope, Brooklyn. And your girlfriend is in the park waiting for you when she sees a woman with an abandoned dog. And when you come, you see the dog who now seems to be your girlfriend's dog", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I co-created it with my girlfriend at the time, Ingrid Jungermann."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 48, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I co-created it with my girlfriend at the time, Ingrid Jungermann."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 49, "text": "And you're wondering, like, why did you take this dog? So here's the scene. You speak first.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 50, "text": "So that's a really funny scene. But I'm wondering if it echoes actual, like, conversations or arguments you have with your girlfriend who plays your girlfriend.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Ingrid) OK..."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 51, "text": "It's from 2011.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, we were just lampooning ourselves. I feel like we wanted to take the absurd stereotypes of who we were and play with it and make these silly personas. I think - it's so strange listening to it n"}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 52, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Listening to it..."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 53, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know. It's from so recently, and yet it feels very dated to me. I guess - but basically that was - it took a journey to get there, and it's changed my life. We were both in grad school at NYU for di"}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 54, "text": "In the scene that we just heard, part of the issue is, what language do you use to refer to yourself or to other lesbians? Is super dykey OK...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I would freeze, you know? And then I applied to 30 festivals. I spent a thousand dollars on entry fees and got rejected everywhere - from the film festivals. And I just didn't know what I was doin"}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 55, "text": "...To describe someone such as your girlfriend? Did you go through that when you had just come out? Like, what language is OK to use?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I would freeze, you know? And then I applied to 30 festivals. I spent a thousand dollars on entry fees and got rejected everywhere - from the film festivals. And I just didn't know what I was doin"}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 56, "text": "Right. Yeah, I had to ask you to change the words so we wouldn't have to bleep you. Yes, and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I go through that with everything. I mean, I think - it's funny 'cause you've had me repeat several words over again - or sentences over again because I curse so much."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 57, "text": "And mission accomplished, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 58, "text": "My guest is Desiree Akhavan, the director and co-writer of the new movie \"The Miseducation Of Cameron Post.\" We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't use language appropriately. I am always using the wrong words, and it's something that I find over and over again in my life. So yeah, a dyke is one of those words. I use it with love, and I t"}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 59, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. My guest is Desiree Akhavan, the director and co-writer of the new film \"The Miseducation Of Cameron Post.\" It's set in the early '90s at a Christian gay conversion center for teenagers. Akhavan's first feature was called \"Appropriate Behavior.\" She starred as a woman who, like Akhavan, is the daughter of Iranian immigrants and is bisexual. Well, what do you think about the word bisexual and about the connotations of it? Because like you identify now as bisexual. You've had relationships with men and with women. It wasn't too long ago, and in some circles it's probably still this way, that bisexual was seen as like a cover, like, OK, if you say you're bisexual, then you're really gay and you're just kind of hiding behind the cloak of semi-heterosexuality.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't use language appropriately. I am always using the wrong words, and it's something that I find over and over again in my life. So yeah, a dyke is one of those words. I use it with love, and I t"}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 60, "text": "Yeah. So you should just like come out and like, you know, say what it really is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah - bi now, gay later."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 61, "text": "So how are you dealing with that when people think that of you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, men have that. With women, I think the thought is like you're straight and you just like, you know, the Katy-Perry-I-kissed-a-girl-and-I-liked-it persona. But with men, I think it's more - it's "}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 62, "text": "This was a TV series in the works for Channel 4 and Hulu?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know what people think about me. It's none of my business. In terms of the word bisexual, I hate the word bisexual. And that's why I feel committed to keep saying it about myself because it's "}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 63, "text": "Called \"The Bisexual,\" yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And we..."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 64, "text": "Do you think the fact that bisexual is the B in LGBTQ - that it shows a certain kind of acknowledgement of bisexuality as being like legit and not just like a cover for being straight or a cover for just, you know, lesbian chic or whatever?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Called \"The Bisexual.\" And it's a bisexual dating comedy. And like, that was always our working title. And then, you know, we're going on the air in months, and none of - nobody has come up with a bet"}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 65, "text": "Is that a comfortable place to be?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. I mean, it hasn't touched me that we're part of the acronym. I mean, it's very cool that it's in the acronym. But that hasn't changed my prejudice against that word. I think it's not eve"}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 66, "text": "Speaking of home, now you're living in London", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a very uncomfortable place to be, but it's home. So I'll take it."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 67, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a very uncomfortable place to be, but it's home. So I'll take it."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 68, "text": "So you're even more in between because you're not only, you know, of Iranian descent and American, but now you're living in a different country altogether.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 69, "text": "Because?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I moved here three and a half years ago. I came out for a week to do press for \"Appropriate Behaviors\" U.K. release, and I ended up not getting on the plane home."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 70, "text": "So in talking about not feeling accepted totally and feeling in between, I read that when you were at Horace Mann High School, which is a prep school - is that fair to say? - that you were voted like the ugliest girl in the school. Is that a joke? I mean, was that supposed to be like funny, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was happy. And I felt accepted and really liked for the first time in my life in a weird way. Also, conveniently, my producing and writing partner lives here. Her name is Cecilia Frugiuele. And we c"}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 71, "text": "...A satirical take on, like, most popular?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If it was, it wasn't a very good one."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 72, "text": "Like, for real, or for - I mean...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, there was a hottest girl at school contest. And then this became a subset of that contest."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 73, "text": "Like, who votes on the ugliest person in the school?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 74, "text": "Like, that's such a hideous thing to do.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 75, "text": "And you're not - I mean, you're very attractive. Like, it just seems...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But also, that's being a teenager. And if it's not - like, I think everyone's..."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 76, "text": "It seems crazy to me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 77, "text": "Nice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wasn't - I'm someone who grew into her face. I legit was an uncomfortable-looking kid. The Beast was my nickname."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 78, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nice."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 79, "text": "What impact did it have on you to be voted ugliest?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I'm very tall. I'm 5' 11'' and 190 pounds at that age and just did not fit into what an attractive girl at Horace Mann should look like."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 80, "text": "So one more question. Since you're so influenced by movies and TV, tell us one of the movies or TV shows that profoundly influenced you when you were young in your formative years.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It gave me a crazy complex. I think I thought - and I still struggle with this in a lot of weird - I notice it when I'm stressed. It shines in different areas of my life. But this paranoia that I - be"}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 81, "text": "She played so many different roles in that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Tracey Ullman's \"Tracey Takes On...\""}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 82, "text": "She played, like, everybody, and male and female too, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 83, "text": "Yeah. So what influenced you about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Loved that show. Yeah."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 84, "text": "And she's a...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My family and I - see, there were very few things that everyone in the house could agree on. And her and Mel Brooks were two comedians that we just all loved. And she lost herself in all these differe"}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 85, "text": "She's an Iranian graphic novelist and filmmaker living in France.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Telling stories."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 86, "text": "Yeah. Well, Desiree Akhavan, thank you so much for talking with us, and congratulations on your new movie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 87, "text": "Desiree Akhavan directed and co-wrote the new movie \"The Miseducation Of Cameron Post.\" Here's a great Irma Thomas recording that's used in the film's high school homecoming.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me."}
{"id": "632242898", "date": "2018-07-25", "guest": "Chloe Grace Moretz", "title": "'Miseducation Of Cameron Post' Creators Take Aim At Gay Conversion Therapy", "question_index": 88, "text": "Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll ask the question, who is Maria Butina? The 29-year-old Russian woman has been charged with working as an unregistered agent of Russia in the U.S. We'll talk with Washington Post investigative reporter Rosalind Helderman about Butina's political connections, her relationship with the NRA and her activities related to the 2016 election. I hope you'll join us. Fresh AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our senior producer is Roberta Shorrock. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Therese Madden directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You can blame me, try to shame me, and still I'll care for you. You can run around, even put me down, still I'll be there for you. The world may think I'm foolish. They can't see you like I "}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Let's get Stephen King to the kind of gore and terror and suspense that you create. There's a scene in \"Gerald's Game,\" your new novel that I'd like you to read from. This is a scene in which the wife is still handcuffed to the bedpost. Her husband is laying dead on the floor, and a stray, vicious dog from the area has walked into the house and has started dining on the woman's dead husband. Would you read it for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, \"Gerald's Game\" started with the concept of the woman being chained to the bed. I'd written a book before where a woman and a small child were stuck in a car that was sort of surrounded, if "}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 1, "text": "That's Stephen King reading from his new novel \"Gerald's Game.\" Do you think of yourself as having taken the horror novel to a kind of more physically explicit place than it had ever been before?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I sure will. (Reading) Gerald's widow's peak was in disarray, probably as a result of the dog's licking the blood out of it. But his glasses were still firmly in place. She could see his eyes, half-op"}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 2, "text": "Clive Barker, yeah", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think that to some degree, I did do that. I think probably I've been surpassed in that area by some of the people who've come after me. I'm thinking mostly of Clive Barker."}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think that to some degree, I did do that. I think probably I've been surpassed in that area by some of the people who've come after me. I'm thinking mostly of Clive Barker."}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 4, "text": "When you would see movies like this, did they scare you or just amuse you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. But you realize that when I started reading and experiencing horror, some of it that I was reading and experiencing came from a very graphic wellspring. And I'm thinking about the horror comics "}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, they scared me. You have to remember that we're talking 10 or 11 years old. And even with a picture like \"Teenage Monster\" where the flying saucer appeared to be a Kools cigarette filter tip with."}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 6, "text": "That's Stephen King reading from his new memoir \"On Writing.\" Stephen King, welcome back to FRESH AIR, and it's so great to still have you with us", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) Most of the sight lines along the mile of Route 5 which I walk are good. But there is one stretch - a short, steep hill - where a pedestrian walking north can see very little of what might b"}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) Most of the sight lines along the mile of Route 5 which I walk are good. But there is one stretch - a short, steep hill - where a pedestrian walking north can see very little of what might b"}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Right. Did Smith say anything to you - anything else to you as you were laying there, drifting in and out of consciousness after he hit you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's nice to be here, but I tell people, nowadays it's nice to be anywhere."}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Did he really say that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He said, I've never had so much as a parking ticket in my life. And here it is, my bad luck, to hit the best-selling writer in the world. And I think he said, I loved all your movies."}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 10, "text": "So he's lying to you as you're lying there, nearly dying?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 11, "text": "No.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he said he had never had so much as a parking ticket. And God knows he had a lot of traffic offenses. We don't want to speak ill of the dead if we can help it because he did die last month on my"}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Which is a little bit eerie."}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 13, "text": "You know, in that reading, you say that it made you think that he was like a character in your fiction. Were there other things that made you think of him that way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 14, "text": "You were understandably really angry with the sentence that he was given. He was basically given a suspended driver's license for a year. But when he was found dead in his home toward the end of September, what was your reaction to his death?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, God knows that I've lived in rural Maine for a lot of years. It's where I grew up, and it's where my wife and I live now - in a town of about 900 people. And we don't want to say that Bryan Smit"}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 15, "text": "For your writing, you've had to imagine people in extreme circumstances and imagine them in agony. Did your accident feel like anything you had imagined for fiction?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was shocked, and I was sorry as well. When he hit me, Bryan Smith was 42. When he died, he was 43. And 43 isn't a natural span, I don't believe, for a man in 21st century America."}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 16, "text": "You have all these visions for these great stories that you write all the time. And they're kind of, you know, crazy and scary enough. So do you think that you got any ideas from these hallucinations that you would use in a book?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview with Stephen King from the year 2000, not long after King had published his book \"On Writing.\" In the book, King writes about the time he was str"}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "From the entire experience and having the broken leg and recovering from the broken leg, those things I've used already in a book called \"Dreamcatcher\" where there's a character, who is a history prof"}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Who live in the basement. And they sit around drinking beer and, you know, telling dirty jokes. And every now and then, you go down and..."}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 19, "text": "I had read that you were going to buy the van that struck you and smash it. Did that actually happen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Say, do you have any ideas for me? And the guy looks at you and says, yeah, I got an idea. Yeah, here it is. Now go get to work and don't bother me anymore. I've got to polish my bowling trophies. "}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 20, "text": "Oh, and you can't say how.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It never did happen. The van has been cubed. When I was in the hospital - mostly unconscious - my wife got a lawyer who's just a friend of the family. My son and his son went to school together, so we"}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure I can. It went through a car crusher. It's a little..."}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Oh, so rather than you attacking it yourself - I got it. Oh, that's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Cube somewhere."}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 23, "text": "And did you keep the cube?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Stephen King, Welcome back to FRESH AIR. It's really a pleasure to have you back on our show. I would like you to start with a reading from \"Joyland,\" and there's probably an official word for this page. The detective books I used to buy when I was, like, in my early teens used to have this kind of page", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli in for Terry Gross back with more of Terry's interviews with author Stephen King. A new TV series called \"Castle Rock,\" based on several of his works, premiered "}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 25, "text": ". It's like a page with a lot of, like, drama in it. I want you to read that page.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli in for Terry Gross back with more of Terry's interviews with author Stephen King. A new TV series called \"Castle Rock,\" based on several of his works, premiered "}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 26, "text": "That's Stephen King reading from his new novel \"Joyland.\" So this is a crime novel that's set in an amusement park in North Carolina. But there's also an element of the supernatural in it. Why did an amusement park that's kind of very carney seem like a good opportunity to combine crime and the supernatural?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hi, Terry. It's a pleasure. And this is the tease for \"Joyland.\" (Reading) I stashed my basket of dirty rags and Turtle Wax by the exit door in the arcade. It was 10 past noon, but right then, food wa"}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I always wanted to write a novel set in an amusement park. Ever since I was a little boy and I went to the Topsham Fair, I've loved the rides and the barkers. I think those people in particular "}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 28, "text": "About which? About God?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I guess that the jury's out on that..."}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 29, "text": "I remember you telling me the last time we spoke that you always believed in God. And it's a choice that you made, and you just - you choose to believe it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "On God and the afterlife and all that. It's certainly a subject that's interested me. And I think it interests me more the older that I get. And I think we'd all like to believe that after we shuffle "}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 30, "text": "And I'm all for that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I choose to believe it, yeah. I think that that's - I mean, there's no downside to that. And the downside - if you say, well, OK, I don't believe in God; there's no evidence of God, then you're missin"}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 31, "text": "When you were in your formative years, what were your supernatural fears? And did you always wish you had some of the supernatural powers that you've given some of your characters?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2013 interview with author Stephen King. The new TV series inspired by many of his works called \"Castle Rock\" premiered this week on the Hulu streaming ser"}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 32, "text": "So you wanted to be scared. Or, I mean, did you have...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "go back to bed and quake."}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 33, "text": "...An avoidance thing with being scared? Or did you just want to be scared?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 34, "text": "Are there things that scare you as an adult that you were not aware enough of or smart enough for when you were a kid to understand that these were frightening things?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, I loved it. It was a classic attraction-repulsion thing. I wanted to be scared. I wanted that reaction. And, I mean, I can self-analyze to a degree. And it might be right, and it might be wrong"}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you grow up, and you become frightened of different things, and they have a tendency to be real-world things."}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 36, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's been quite a while since I was really afraid that there was a boogeyman in my closet, although I am still very careful to keep my feet under the covers when I go to sleep because the covers are m"}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 37, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I'm not as afraid of that as I used to be. The supernatural stuff doesn't get to me anymore. But here's the movie that scared me the most in the last 12 or 13 years. The movie opens with a woman in"}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 38, "text": "Why is that the thing you're most afraid of?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's the boogeyman in the closet now."}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 39, "text": "Losing your memory?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm afraid of losing my mind."}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 40, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you don't just lose your memory. You lose your mind, basically."}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 41, "text": "Since, you know, we've talked a little bit about your interest in the supernatural and whether or not there is an afterlife, did you have any of those, you know, like, near-death experiences that are, you know, sometimes described by people who came very close to dying but were then revived?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You lose your identity, your sense of who you are, where you are. If you're a block away from the house, you may forget how to get home. I think I could put up with a lot of things and a lot of pain. "}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 42, "text": "Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I hope -", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I never saw the white light. I'm sorry. I can't tell a lie. I never saw the white light. So no, I can't say that I've ever had a near-death experience where, you know, angels rose fluttering from the "}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 43, "text": "I hope you'll be waiting a really, really long time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I never saw the white light. I'm sorry. I can't tell a lie. I never saw the white light. So no, I can't say that I've ever had a near-death experience where, you know, angels rose fluttering from the "}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 44, "text": "If there is a god, right", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. From your lips to God's ear."}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 45, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. From your lips to God's ear."}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 46, "text": "Stephen King, I want to thank you so much for talking with us. It's really been great to talk with you again. And I'm so glad to hear that, in spite of the car accident, like, you're playing tennis and stuff like that. That's great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If there is a god."}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 47, "text": "Oh", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. It's good to be alive, Terry. And sometime when you're up here, we'll play doubles."}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 48, "text": ", yeah", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. It's good to be alive, Terry. And sometime when you're up here, we'll play doubles."}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 49, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. It's good to be alive, Terry. And sometime when you're up here, we'll play doubles."}
{"id": "633002291", "date": "2018-07-27", "guest": "Terry O'Quinn", "title": "Stephen King: 'My Imagination Was Very Active \u2014 Even At A Young Age'", "question_index": 50, "text": "Thank you so much. Be well.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much."}
{"id": "635972655", "date": "2018-08-06", "guest": "Victoria Pratt", "title": "How Can America Reduce Mass Incarceration?", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest Judge Victoria Pratt is known for having done her best to avoid sending people to jail by offering alternatives such as community service, social services and even writing a personal essay. She served as chief judge of Newark's municipal court and presided over Newark Community Solutions, a community court program providing alternative sentences to low-level offenders. That program is run by the city of Newark in partnership with the Center for Court Innovation, a New York-based nonprofit that works to reform the justice system. The center's director for policy and research, Julian Adler, is also joining us. He's the co-author of the new book \"Start Here: A Roadmap To Reducing Mass Incarceration.\" Alternatives to jail are important to Judge Pratt and Julian Adler because, as Adler and his co-author write, jails are accelerants of human misery. If you are poor or mentally ill or struggling to keep your family together when you enter, the chances are that all of these conditions will be markedly worse when you come out. Judge Pratt is now a professor at Rutgers University Law School. Julian Adler, Judge Victoria Pratt, welcome to FRESH AIR. So there's many ways in which the system appears to be unfair to the poor. A very good example of that is fines and bail, which, Julian, you write about in the book. And Judge Pratt, I know you've had to deal with things like that. So just spell out for us some of the ways that fines and bail are much more difficult for the poor and can lead to a further spiral downward.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "635972655", "date": "2018-08-06", "guest": "Victoria Pratt", "title": "How Can America Reduce Mass Incarceration?", "question_index": 1, "text": "When you were a judge, did you see a lot of cases where people were in this downward spiral and were in the criminal justice system because they were poor and unable to pay fines?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In most instances, we know that people who are poor live on incredibly limited finances. So imagine you leave your house as a person who doesn't have much income coming in anyway. You get stopped by t"}
{"id": "635972655", "date": "2018-08-06", "guest": "Victoria Pratt", "title": "How Can America Reduce Mass Incarceration?", "question_index": 2, "text": "What's an example of a mandatory fine that you used to have to deal with in Newark?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. And fortunately, the city of Newark decided that Newarkers deserve better, and we created Newark Community Solutions. There are some ways that judges can do - like I said, "}
{"id": "635972655", "date": "2018-08-06", "guest": "Victoria Pratt", "title": "How Can America Reduce Mass Incarceration?", "question_index": 3, "text": "How frustrating is it as a judge when you don't have flexibility?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If you plead guilty to criminal matters, the law requires a mandatory VCC and Safe Neighborhood fine. So even on a disorderly persons offense, you would get a fine, maybe, of $100 - or no fine, but it"}
{"id": "635972655", "date": "2018-08-06", "guest": "Victoria Pratt", "title": "How Can America Reduce Mass Incarceration?", "question_index": 4, "text": "So, Judge Pratt, you formerly presided over Newark Community Solutions, which provided alternatives to jail for many low-level offenders. And you were - you were in a section called Part 2. What is Part 2?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And the idea that the default system should be money bail or jail for a broad range of offenses is not normatively defensible, nor does it necessarily promote public safety."}
{"id": "635972655", "date": "2018-08-06", "guest": "Victoria Pratt", "title": "How Can America Reduce Mass Incarceration?", "question_index": 5, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you both. If you're just joining us, my guests are Julian Adler, co-author of the new book \"Start Here: A Roadmap To Reducing Mass Incarceration.\" He's the director of policy and research at the Center for Court Innovation. And I'm also with Judge Victoria Pratt, who presided over the Newark Community Solutions, where she was chief judge. And this is a group that provides alternatives to jail for many low-level offenders. She's now a professor teaching restorative justice and problem-solving justice at Rutgers Law School. We'll be back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Part 2 Criminal Court is the arraignment court of Newark Municipal Court, and now it is the home of Newark Community Solutions. Prior to Newark Community Solutions, the nickname for it was The Deuce b"}
{"id": "635972655", "date": "2018-08-06", "guest": "Victoria Pratt", "title": "How Can America Reduce Mass Incarceration?", "question_index": 6, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, we're talking about alternatives to mass incarceration - ways to reduce mass incarceration through different approaches to sentencing. I have two guests. Julian Adler is the co-author of the new book \"Start Here: A Road Map To Reducing Mass Incarceration.\" He's the director of policy and research at the Center for Court Innovation where he leads the work on national criminal justice reform projects. Also with me is Judge Victoria Pratt who was the chief judge at Newark Community Solutions, which provided alternatives to jail for many low-level offenders - alternative sentencing. She's now a professor, teaching restorative justice and problem-solving justice at Rutgers Law School. So, Judge Pratt, give us an example of someone, who came before your court, that you gave an alternative sentence to. So instead of sending them to the county jail, you sentenced them to something else.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Part 2 Criminal Court is the arraignment court of Newark Municipal Court, and now it is the home of Newark Community Solutions. Prior to Newark Community Solutions, the nickname for it was The Deuce b"}
{"id": "635972655", "date": "2018-08-06", "guest": "Victoria Pratt", "title": "How Can America Reduce Mass Incarceration?", "question_index": 7, "text": "How workable a solution is that? Like, if all the people with serious mental health problems came to court for free lunches, you wouldn't be able...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And they would make sure that he had lunch. And for me, what was great about that was that it changed the relationship between this person and police and court. So the court was a place that he coul"}
{"id": "635972655", "date": "2018-08-06", "guest": "Victoria Pratt", "title": "How Can America Reduce Mass Incarceration?", "question_index": 8, "text": "...To accommodate them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "635972655", "date": "2018-08-06", "guest": "Victoria Pratt", "title": "How Can America Reduce Mass Incarceration?", "question_index": 9, "text": "Did you sentence this person that you're talking about - the person who you realized was schizophrenic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So if we have them - I mean, one of the biggest problems with the system as it's functioning now is that we are criminalizing social ills, and we are sending people to a court and telling judges to "}
{"id": "635972655", "date": "2018-08-06", "guest": "Victoria Pratt", "title": "How Can America Reduce Mass Incarceration?", "question_index": 10, "text": "To anything. Like, what was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Did I sentence him to jail?"}
{"id": "635972655", "date": "2018-08-06", "guest": "Victoria Pratt", "title": "How Can America Reduce Mass Incarceration?", "question_index": 11, "text": "So that was the sentence?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, he actually got sentenced to the program, and so that's how we were able to get him..."}
{"id": "635972655", "date": "2018-08-06", "guest": "Victoria Pratt", "title": "How Can America Reduce Mass Incarceration?", "question_index": 12, "text": "So getting help was the sentence.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, the program was the sentence."}
{"id": "635972655", "date": "2018-08-06", "guest": "Victoria Pratt", "title": "How Can America Reduce Mass Incarceration?", "question_index": 13, "text": "So what kind of community service did this person who had schizophrenia do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, so they - it's punishment with assistance, right? So punishment is being forced to have to - in their minds, initially, is maybe to have to do community service and being forced to go speak to a"}
{"id": "635972655", "date": "2018-08-06", "guest": "Victoria Pratt", "title": "How Can America Reduce Mass Incarceration?", "question_index": 14, "text": "So what was it like for you on the bench? I imagine you had the reputation of being this, like, alternative judge who wanted to treat people humanely. Did you feel like anyone was ever trying to take advantage of that and play you in some way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in this - in an instance where a person who's so severely - has such severe mental illness, we probably would have converted their community service to more social services, so more meetings wit"}
{"id": "635972655", "date": "2018-08-06", "guest": "Victoria Pratt", "title": "How Can America Reduce Mass Incarceration?", "question_index": 15, "text": "So translate that for me. Like, you require somebody to do community service or social service.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I always thought it was a funny thing because what they say about me is she's fair. And what was important is that they were saying it not to me but to individuals who are now coming through the s"}
{"id": "635972655", "date": "2018-08-06", "guest": "Victoria Pratt", "title": "How Can America Reduce Mass Incarceration?", "question_index": 16, "text": "How do you keep track of what they're doing, and what kind of positive and negative feedback do you give them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "635972655", "date": "2018-08-06", "guest": "Victoria Pratt", "title": "How Can America Reduce Mass Incarceration?", "question_index": 17, "text": "You know, you were saying that you ask people in the community what kind of consequence would you like to see to low-level crime. And it's often, you know, treatment of one sort or another. That reminds me, Julian, of something that you write in your book \"Start Here,\" which is that you make a comparison to gay rights. You say the gay rights movement was really able to expand and succeed more once more people came out of the closet. And people began to realize, oh, I know somebody who I really like, and they're gay. So maybe I can't hate gay people, or maybe I can't stereotype the way that I did before. And with people in communities where they know people who've been in prison, they don't see the prisoner as the other. It's like your brother, your neighbor, your friend. Like, you know these people, that you can't just kind of discard them and treat them as - yeah, as the other.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So through - the Center for Court Innovation partnered with the city of Newark and created Newark Community Solutions. And so this is a partnership that they now have with the judiciary in Newark. And"}
{"id": "635972655", "date": "2018-08-06", "guest": "Victoria Pratt", "title": "How Can America Reduce Mass Incarceration?", "question_index": 18, "text": "So Julian, we've heard some about the Newark project, which your group founded in conjunction with the city of Newark. Your group, the Center for Court Innovation, has other kind of experimental projects in different parts of the country. Tell us about another project that your group helps operate that's different from the one that Judge Pratt presided over.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it reminds me of something that Judge Alex Calabrese, who sits in the Red Hook Community Justice Center in Brooklyn - who we write about in the book - always says that he's animated by the idea "}
{"id": "635972655", "date": "2018-08-06", "guest": "Victoria Pratt", "title": "How Can America Reduce Mass Incarceration?", "question_index": 19, "text": "I have two guests. Judge Victoria Pratt is the former chief judge of Newark's municipal court. She also presided over Newark Community Solutions. She's now a professor at Rutgers University Law School. Julian Adler is the director of policy and research at the Center for Court Innovation, and he's co-author of the new book \"Start Here: A Roadmap To Reducing Mass Incarceration.\" We'll talk more after a break, and Ken Tucker will review the new album by the band the Internet. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So one other program that the Center for Court Innovation runs is citywide supervised release in New York City in three boroughs. So in Brooklyn, the Bronx and on Staten Island, the Center for Court I"}
{"id": "635972655", "date": "2018-08-06", "guest": "Victoria Pratt", "title": "How Can America Reduce Mass Incarceration?", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross back with my two guests. Judge Victoria Pratt - she's the former chief judge of Newark's municipal court and presided over Newark Community Solutions, a community court program providing alternative sentences to low-level offenders. It's run by the city of Newark in partnership with the Center for Court Innovation, a New York-based nonprofit that works to reform the justice system. The center's director for policy and research, Julian Adler, is also joining us. He's the co-author of the new book \"Start Here: A Roadmap To Reducing Mass Incarceration.\" So Judge Pratt, I know one of the kinds of alternative sentences that you've given some of the defendants who have come before you is to write a personal essay...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So one other program that the Center for Court Innovation runs is citywide supervised release in New York City in three boroughs. So in Brooklyn, the Bronx and on Staten Island, the Center for Court I"}
{"id": "635972655", "date": "2018-08-06", "guest": "Victoria Pratt", "title": "How Can America Reduce Mass Incarceration?", "question_index": 21, "text": "...And sometimes to read it themselves out loud. Tell us your thinking behind that as a sentence.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "635972655", "date": "2018-08-06", "guest": "Victoria Pratt", "title": "How Can America Reduce Mass Incarceration?", "question_index": 22, "text": "Do you ever assign an essay and then learn that somebody is illiterate?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I believe that all the answers we're looking for lie within us. And so as a part of their sentence, yes, they get these essays. But they are these essays that require them to go on the inside. And "}
{"id": "635972655", "date": "2018-08-06", "guest": "Victoria Pratt", "title": "How Can America Reduce Mass Incarceration?", "question_index": 23, "text": "Well this gets - this gets back to a premise that you write about in the book, Julian, which is that if the criminal justice system shows some respect for the people who come before it, then the people who enter the criminal justice system are more likely to respect the law and the people who are enforcing the law.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, absolutely. I mean, when - a defendant will begin to read an essay. And, sometimes, I'll notice a prosecutor who's got like 20 people coming. And they'll stop, and they'll start listening and look"}
{"id": "635972655", "date": "2018-08-06", "guest": "Victoria Pratt", "title": "How Can America Reduce Mass Incarceration?", "question_index": 24, "text": "So, Judge Pratt, I just want to ask you about - going back to the essay for a second. Say somebody - say you sentence somebody with having to write a personal essay, and you've given them a theme. And they come back with something that isn't really very reflective or is just filled with cliches that they've just kind of, you know, linked together.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "635972655", "date": "2018-08-06", "guest": "Victoria Pratt", "title": "How Can America Reduce Mass Incarceration?", "question_index": 25, "text": "Yeah. So what do you do with that? Do you say, that's not good enough; now you're going to jail?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "?"}
{"id": "635972655", "date": "2018-08-06", "guest": "Victoria Pratt", "title": "How Can America Reduce Mass Incarceration?", "question_index": 26, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you both. If you're just joining us, my guests are Judge Victoria Pratt, who was the chief judge at Newark Municipal Court and presided over Newark Community Solutions, which is a community court. She's now a professor at Rutgers. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Didn't I tell you they say Judge Pratt don't play? Go into the hallway. So - because there's a sanction for that. So you either - you get to go in the hallway and rewrite your essay, or you face addit"}
{"id": "635972655", "date": "2018-08-06", "guest": "Victoria Pratt", "title": "How Can America Reduce Mass Incarceration?", "question_index": 27, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, I have two guests. Judge Victoria Pratt was the chief judge at Newark Municipal Court and presided over Newark Community Solutions, which provided alternatives to jail for many low-level offenders. She's now a professor teaching restorative justice and problem-solving at Rutgers University Law School. Also with me is Julian Adler. He's the co-author of the new book \"Start Here: A Roadmap To Reducing Mass Incarceration.\" He's the director of policy and research at the Center for Court Innovation, where he leads the work on national criminal justice reform projects. Judge Pratt, was there ever a time you gave somebody an alternative sentence, like social services or community work or all that and an essay as well, and you ended up regretting it because they committed maybe a more - like, a violent act after that and you wished that you had sent them to jail instead of giving them an alternative sentence?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Didn't I tell you they say Judge Pratt don't play? Go into the hallway. So - because there's a sanction for that. So you either - you get to go in the hallway and rewrite your essay, or you face addit"}
{"id": "635972655", "date": "2018-08-06", "guest": "Victoria Pratt", "title": "How Can America Reduce Mass Incarceration?", "question_index": 28, "text": "We're in a time now where there seems to be some bipartisan support for prison reform. Even, like, the Koch brothers, who are known as being, like, very conservative, they're supporting some prison reform projects, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And back to Julian's point, there are so many things that need to be happening in the community when you are really trying to restore order to communities. And we know that just - we're not going to j"}
{"id": "635972655", "date": "2018-08-06", "guest": "Victoria Pratt", "title": "How Can America Reduce Mass Incarceration?", "question_index": 29, "text": "Julian Adler, Judge Pratt, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's an exciting time. We are seeing bipartisan reform. As we point out in the book, though, because at the federal level, particularly under the current administration, it's often a bit opaque "}
{"id": "635972655", "date": "2018-08-06", "guest": "Victoria Pratt", "title": "How Can America Reduce Mass Incarceration?", "question_index": 30, "text": "Judge Victoria Pratt is now a professor at Rutgers University Law School. Julian Adler is director of policy and research at the Center for Court Innovation and co-author of the new book \"Start Here: A Roadmap To Reducing Mass Incarceration.\" After a break, Ken Tucker will review a new album by the band The Internet. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having us."}
{"id": "636254979", "date": "2018-08-07", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "'Into The Hands Of The Soldiers' Explores How The U.S. Contributed To Chaos In Egypt", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. I want to preface today's interview by mentioning I have a cold, so some croaking may occur during the course of today's show. OK - on to the interview, which was, by the way, recorded yesterday when I sounded a little bit better. The first time President Trump met Egypt's autocratic president, Abdel-Fattah el-Sissi, Trump called him a fantastic guy. Sissi took over in a military coup, overthrowing Mohammed Morsi, who had become the first democratically elected president of Egypt in 2011 following the uprising during the Arab Spring that forced out strongman President Hosni Mubarak. My guest David Kirkpatrick covered all of these changes when he served as the New York Times Cairo bureau chief from 2011 to 2015. He's written a new book about the Egyptian revolution and the subsequent coup called \"Into The Hands Of The Soldiers: Freedom And Chaos In Egypt And The Middle East.\" It's also about the conflicts within the Obama administration over how to handle these historic events. A little later, we'll talk about Kirkpatrick's recent article about Trump's billionaire friend who helped connect Trump to Arab princes. Kirkpatrick is now an international correspondent for The New York Times. He's based in London. David Kirkpatrick, welcome back to FRESH AIR. When you were reporting from Egypt during the revolution and then during the military coup, how aware were you of what was happening in the Obama administration and their conflicts over what position to take on the revolution and then the coup?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "636254979", "date": "2018-08-07", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "'Into The Hands Of The Soldiers' Explores How The U.S. Contributed To Chaos In Egypt", "question_index": 1, "text": "You write that Trump's hard-line approach to extremism, embracing the hawks of the Gulf region and in Israel in the Persian Gulf - that actually started under President Obama. What do you mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was curious more than anything. As the events were unfolding in Egypt, I was again and again asking myself, what could they be thinking? And writing this book was an opportunity for me to find"}
{"id": "636254979", "date": "2018-08-07", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "'Into The Hands Of The Soldiers' Explores How The U.S. Contributed To Chaos In Egypt", "question_index": 2, "text": "Who were the hawks in the Obama administration that took that point of view?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there's always been a debate within American policymaking circles between those who think, look; reform, democratic improvements in society, reaching hearts and minds is the way to combat violen"}
{"id": "636254979", "date": "2018-08-07", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "'Into The Hands Of The Soldiers' Explores How The U.S. Contributed To Chaos In Egypt", "question_index": 3, "text": "So during the Obama administration, General James Mattis was the head of CENTCOM. Mattis became Trump's first secretary of defense. General Michael Flynn was the head of the Defense Intelligence Agency during part of the Obama administration. Obama eventually forced him out. And Flynn, of course, became Trump's first national security adviser and stayed in that position just a short amount of time. So what were their roles? What were Flynn's and Mattis' roles in taking sides in the coup? Like, what role did they play?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, some of them have turned up in the Trump administration. If you count General James Mattis, who's now Secretary of Defense James Mattis, he represented that view within the uniformed military. B"}
{"id": "636254979", "date": "2018-08-07", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "'Into The Hands Of The Soldiers' Explores How The U.S. Contributed To Chaos In Egypt", "question_index": 4, "text": "You met with Michael Flynn in 2016 in his office, and he warned you that the Muslim Brotherhood, the party that Mohammed Morsi was associated with, had infiltrated Washington, D.C., and that President Obama and his ambassador to Egypt, Anne Patterson, were dangerously close to the Islamists. What did you make of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't know exactly what they said to their Egyptian counterparts during the events that led up to the coup. I do know - and I learned during the reporting of this book for the first time - tha"}
{"id": "636254979", "date": "2018-08-07", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "'Into The Hands Of The Soldiers' Explores How The U.S. Contributed To Chaos In Egypt", "question_index": 5, "text": "And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thought it was breathtaking. It's really kind of crazy conspiracy thinking. I had some dealings with Ambassador Patterson, the ambassador in Cairo when I worked there. I've talked to many, many peop"}
{"id": "636254979", "date": "2018-08-07", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "'Into The Hands Of The Soldiers' Explores How The U.S. Contributed To Chaos In Egypt", "question_index": 6, "text": "And Donald Trump was one of the people who supported that theory.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So all of that, keep in mind."}
{"id": "636254979", "date": "2018-08-07", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "'Into The Hands Of The Soldiers' Explores How The U.S. Contributed To Chaos In Egypt", "question_index": 7, "text": "It took him years to give that one up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He fanned the flames of that one a little bit."}
{"id": "636254979", "date": "2018-08-07", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "'Into The Hands Of The Soldiers' Explores How The U.S. Contributed To Chaos In Egypt", "question_index": 8, "text": "So John Kerry, who was the second secretary of state under President Obama, called Mohammed Morsi, the first democratically elected president of Egypt who was part of the Muslim Brotherhood - Kerry called him the dumbest cluck I ever met. He said, these guys are wacko. So what did Kerry see?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that's right. So anyway, when I heard all this coming from General Flynn, who had been the head of Defense Intelligence, I thought, my gosh, what's going on here?"}
{"id": "636254979", "date": "2018-08-07", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "'Into The Hands Of The Soldiers' Explores How The U.S. Contributed To Chaos In Egypt", "question_index": 9, "text": "Do you know if President Obama knew what Mattis and Flynn were saying and advocating and how Flynn believed that the brothers had infiltrated Washington and that Obama and Ambassador Anne Patterson were dangerously close to the Islamists?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "From Kerry's point of view - he arrived in Cairo for his first foreign trip as secretary of state, and on his mind was pushing Egypt towards free market-oriented economic reforms, an International Mon"}
{"id": "636254979", "date": "2018-08-07", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "'Into The Hands Of The Soldiers' Explores How The U.S. Contributed To Chaos In Egypt", "question_index": 10, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is David Kirkpatrick, who was the New York Times Cairo bureau chief from 2011 to 2015 and is now an international correspondent for the Times, based in London. His new book is called \"Into The Hands Of The Soldiers: Freedom And Chaos In Egypt And The Middle East.\" We'll be back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have to say that one of the things that was most striking to me when I began to investigate what was going on in the Obama administration is the degree of discord between the thinking and statements"}
{"id": "636254979", "date": "2018-08-07", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "'Into The Hands Of The Soldiers' Explores How The U.S. Contributed To Chaos In Egypt", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. If you're just joining us, my guest is David Kirkpatrick. He was the New York Times Cairo bureau chief during the Egyptian revolution and the coup that overthrew the first democratically elected president, Mohammed Morsi. His new book about the coup and what happened behind the scenes in the Obama administration is called \"Into The Hands Of The Soldiers: Freedom And Chaos In Egypt And The Middle East.\" Kirkpatrick is now an international correspondent for the Times and is based in London. You know, we're calling Sissi's coming to power as a coup, a military coup, and the military and Sissi overthrew Mohammed Morsi. But the Obama administration didn't call it a coup. Why is the word coup important? Why was it important in terms of the Obama administration and policy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have to say that one of the things that was most striking to me when I began to investigate what was going on in the Obama administration is the degree of discord between the thinking and statements"}
{"id": "636254979", "date": "2018-08-07", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "'Into The Hands Of The Soldiers' Explores How The U.S. Contributed To Chaos In Egypt", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, Kerry, when he was secretary of state, actually argued that Morsi's removal wasn't a coup. It was el-Sissi bowing to the public to save Egypt.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the United States has a law on the books that requires the government to stop sending military aid to any military that perpetrates a coup that removes an elected government. The Egyptian milita"}
{"id": "636254979", "date": "2018-08-07", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "'Into The Hands Of The Soldiers' Explores How The U.S. Contributed To Chaos In Egypt", "question_index": 13, "text": "Why is that remarkable?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's remarkable. And you know what's even more remarkable? Not only did he argue that in 2013 when it happened, he told me in 2016 that that's what he argued in 2013, and that's what he still "}
{"id": "636254979", "date": "2018-08-07", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "'Into The Hands Of The Soldiers' Explores How The U.S. Contributed To Chaos In Egypt", "question_index": 14, "text": "In Rabaah Square, as many as a thousand people were killed. And you covered that. What did you witness?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's remarkable because at the time of the military takeover, General Sissi, who carried out the takeover, said, I am really just doing this to protect the aims of the revolution; we're going to"}
{"id": "636254979", "date": "2018-08-07", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "'Into The Hands Of The Soldiers' Explores How The U.S. Contributed To Chaos In Egypt", "question_index": 15, "text": "Now, you describe how not only did Sissi become a strongman right after he was elected, and rather than saving Egypt, he holds a firm grip over Egypt, but you write that even his clothing changed after he became the ruler of Egypt.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's not an easy question to answer. It was an extremely bloody day, and it was a hard day to live through, a hard day to process as it's happening and hard to think about even now. I've just - I will"}
{"id": "636254979", "date": "2018-08-07", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "'Into The Hands Of The Soldiers' Explores How The U.S. Contributed To Chaos In Egypt", "question_index": 16, "text": "Is there some kind of, like, special strongman clothing store where all the strongmen kind of buy their outfits?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, certainly, his style changed. There's a memorable speech, a speech that every Egyptian knows as the mandate speech. You know, Sissi when he first came out - I'm dropping back now to the day of t"}
{"id": "636254979", "date": "2018-08-07", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "'Into The Hands Of The Soldiers' Explores How The U.S. Contributed To Chaos In Egypt", "question_index": 17, "text": "My guest is David Kirkpatrick, an international correspondent for The New York Times. He was the Cairo bureau chief from 2011 to 2015. His new book is called, \"Into The Hands Of The Soldiers: Freedom And Chaos In Egypt And The Middle East.\" After a break, we'll talk more about the coup, and we'll talk about President Trump's billionaire friend who helped Trump become celebrated in the royal courts of Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates in spite of Trump's hostility to Muslims. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I don't know the answer to that. But the change in his wardrobe was just the most superficial part of really sweeping changes in the whole persona of then-general, now-President Sissi. And a"}
{"id": "636254979", "date": "2018-08-07", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "'Into The Hands Of The Soldiers' Explores How The U.S. Contributed To Chaos In Egypt", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross, back with David Kirkpatrick, an international correspondent for The New York Times who served as the Times' Cairo bureau chief from 2011 to 2015. His new book, \"Into The Hands Of The Soldiers: Freedom And Chaos In Egypt And The Middle East,\" is about covering the Egyptian revolution during the Arab Spring and the subsequent military coup that overthrew democratically elected president Mohammed Morsi. The book also includes Kirkpatrick's new reporting about divisions within the Obama administration about how to respond to the revolution and the subsequent coup. You haven't been able to speak to Obama - have you? - about how the Egyptian revolution and the coup went down and any regrets he has about how his administration handled it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I don't know the answer to that. But the change in his wardrobe was just the most superficial part of really sweeping changes in the whole persona of then-general, now-President Sissi. And a"}
{"id": "636254979", "date": "2018-08-07", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "'Into The Hands Of The Soldiers' Explores How The U.S. Contributed To Chaos In Egypt", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is the Nelson Mandela talk, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have not been able to speak to Obama. But I was able to obtain a very detailed record of his final conversation with President Morsi, the Islamist who had been elected president of Egypt, just about"}
{"id": "636254979", "date": "2018-08-07", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "'Into The Hands Of The Soldiers' Explores How The U.S. Contributed To Chaos In Egypt", "question_index": 20, "text": "Do you want to describe what Obama said?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is the Nelson Mandela talk where..."}
{"id": "636254979", "date": "2018-08-07", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "'Into The Hands Of The Soldiers' Explores How The U.S. Contributed To Chaos In Egypt", "question_index": 21, "text": "But it sounds like some of the people in the Obama administration knew that the coup was going to happen. They had advanced warning of it. Are you saying that the president didn't?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Obama starts with his prepared talking points, which are, Mr. Morsi, you need to try to reach out to your civilian opponents and bring them in so that it's almost a unity government. And that will hel"}
{"id": "636254979", "date": "2018-08-07", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "'Into The Hands Of The Soldiers' Explores How The U.S. Contributed To Chaos In Egypt", "question_index": 22, "text": "You had a few close calls while you were covering the revolution in Egypt and the coup, and there was one time that I want you to talk about. You were with your translator who was Coptic Christian, and there was a lot of friction between the Islamists and the Christians. And you were both arrested, and you had no idea what was in store. And at some point, he whispers to you, I have a gun. Save yourself. What was he trying to tell you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I am not sure how the information traveled within the White House. I know that months before it happened, Ambassador Patterson was saying to Washington there is very likely to be at least a "}
{"id": "636254979", "date": "2018-08-07", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "'Into The Hands Of The Soldiers' Explores How The U.S. Contributed To Chaos In Egypt", "question_index": 23, "text": "What did you say to your translator when that episode was over about the gun?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Then they were interrogating us. Then they handed us over to the police, and the police were no longer worried about my translator. Then they were worried about me. They were concerned if I was a sp"}
{"id": "636254979", "date": "2018-08-07", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "'Into The Hands Of The Soldiers' Explores How The U.S. Contributed To Chaos In Egypt", "question_index": 24, "text": "Yeah. Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is David Kirkpatrick, and he was the Cairo bureau chief for The New York Times from 2011 to 2015. He's now an international correspondent for the Times based in London. He has a new book called \"Into The Hands Of The Soldiers: Freedom And Chaos In Egypt And The Middle East.\" We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I try to say very politely that we would no longer be able to employ him as an interpreter for The New York Times."}
{"id": "636254979", "date": "2018-08-07", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "'Into The Hands Of The Soldiers' Explores How The U.S. Contributed To Chaos In Egypt", "question_index": 25, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. If you're just joining us, my guest is David Kirkpatrick. He was the New York Times Cairo bureau chief from 2011 to 2015 and is now an international correspondent for the Times based in London. His new book is called \"Into The Hands Of The Soldiers: Freedom And Chaos In Egypt And The Middle East.\" Kirkpatrick is now an international correspondent for the Times and is based in London. OK, so let's skip ahead to President Trump and talk about President Trump's relationship with General Sissi, who is now the strongman of Egypt. Trump called Sissi a fantastic guy when they first met in September of 2016. And Trump said he took control of Egypt, and he really took control of it. What do you know about their relationship? And if it's a transactional relationship, what's in it for each of them right now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I try to say very politely that we would no longer be able to employ him as an interpreter for The New York Times."}
{"id": "636254979", "date": "2018-08-07", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "'Into The Hands Of The Soldiers' Explores How The U.S. Contributed To Chaos In Egypt", "question_index": 26, "text": "You had an article on June 13 that was headlined \"Who Is Behind Trump\u2019s Links To Arab Princes? A Billionaire Friend.\" And the billionaire friend who you wrote about in that article is the financier Tom Barrack. And you credit him with helping Trump's improbable transformation from a candidate who campaigned against Muslims to a president celebrated in the royal courts of Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates, the UAE. Who is Tom Barrack, and what was his role in the Trump campaign?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, for Sissi, what's in it is clear. The recognition from Trump confers on him some legitimacy. The Obama administration for a while had suspended - didn't cut off, but it suspended the economic - "}
{"id": "636254979", "date": "2018-08-07", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "'Into The Hands Of The Soldiers' Explores How The U.S. Contributed To Chaos In Egypt", "question_index": 27, "text": "So Tom Barrack - the billionaire, friend and supporter of Trump's - tried to set up a meeting between the crown prince of Saudi Arabia and Paul Manafort back when Manafort was Trump's campaign manager. What happened with that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Tom Barrack is a real estate financier who's been enormously successful. He is a Lebanese American who became a quite successful private equity investor. He's a billionaire, and he's been friends w"}
{"id": "636254979", "date": "2018-08-07", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "'Into The Hands Of The Soldiers' Explores How The U.S. Contributed To Chaos In Egypt", "question_index": 28, "text": "Tell us more about what the Saudis and the Emiratis have gotten out of their close relationship with President Trump.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm told that meeting never took place. That for one reason or another, it didn't come off. But the email traffic shows elaborate efforts to set up a quiet meeting in a hotel someplace that the press "}
{"id": "636254979", "date": "2018-08-07", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "'Into The Hands Of The Soldiers' Explores How The U.S. Contributed To Chaos In Egypt", "question_index": 29, "text": "Do you think that the Saudis and Emiratis actually influenced President Trump's decision to pull out of the Iran nuclear deal? Or do you think that President Trump's, like, position just happened to coincide with the position of the Emiratis and the Saudis?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the biggest thing is Trump turning away from the Iran nuclear deal, the deal that President Obama worked out to try to relax sanctions on Iran in exchange for Iran limiting its nuclear program t"}
{"id": "636254979", "date": "2018-08-07", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "'Into The Hands Of The Soldiers' Explores How The U.S. Contributed To Chaos In Egypt", "question_index": 30, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. And then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is David Kirkpatrick, who was the New York Times Cairo bureau chief from 2011 to 2015 and is now an international correspondent for The Times based in London. His new book is called \"Into The Hands Of The Soldiers: Freedom And Chaos In Egypt And The Middle East.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I certainly can't read the mind of President Trump. But I will say that the Saudis and the Emiratis were not the only ones pushing for that outcome. Prime Minister Netanyahu in Israel also was p"}
{"id": "636254979", "date": "2018-08-07", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "'Into The Hands Of The Soldiers' Explores How The U.S. Contributed To Chaos In Egypt", "question_index": 31, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. My guest is David Kirkpatrick, who was the New York Times Cairo bureau chief during the Egyptian revolution and the coup that overthrew the first democratically elected president Mohamed Morsi. Kirkpatrick's new book about the coup and what happened behind the scenes in the Obama administration is called \"Into The Hands Of The Soldiers: Freedom And Chaos In Egypt And The Middle East.\" Kirkpatrick is now an international correspondent for The Times and is based in London. So what has President Trump gotten in return for his alliance with the Saudis and the Emiratis?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I certainly can't read the mind of President Trump. But I will say that the Saudis and the Emiratis were not the only ones pushing for that outcome. Prime Minister Netanyahu in Israel also was p"}
{"id": "636254979", "date": "2018-08-07", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "'Into The Hands Of The Soldiers' Explores How The U.S. Contributed To Chaos In Egypt", "question_index": 32, "text": "One of the benefits you say for the Trump administration of the alliance with the Saudis and the Emiratis is that when the president decided to move the American embassy in Israel to Jerusalem, the Emiratis and the Saudis only gave like pro forma opposition. They didn't really make a thing out of it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, that's a very good question. And I guess that it would be an omission not to note that the special prosecutor Robert Mueller appears to be looking into that as well. You know, as we've discu"}
{"id": "636254979", "date": "2018-08-07", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "'Into The Hands Of The Soldiers' Explores How The U.S. Contributed To Chaos In Egypt", "question_index": 33, "text": "And Tom Barrack, the billionaire friend of Trump's who has been a kind of intermediary between the Saudis, Emiratis and Donald Trump, he's been questioned in the Mueller probe - what? - about Manafort and Gates?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's right. And I was able to obtain some leaked audio recordings of a Egyptian intelligence officer actually coaching Egyptian talk show hosts and other media personalities on how to convince"}
{"id": "636254979", "date": "2018-08-07", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "'Into The Hands Of The Soldiers' Explores How The U.S. Contributed To Chaos In Egypt", "question_index": 34, "text": "So it's money, basically, that he's being asked about.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My understanding is that he was questioned only about Manafort and Gates. Tom Barrack seems to have ties with everybody here, doesn't he? He has long-standing ties with Gates or at least with Manafort"}
{"id": "636254979", "date": "2018-08-07", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "'Into The Hands Of The Soldiers' Explores How The U.S. Contributed To Chaos In Egypt", "question_index": 35, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think Barrack is - I don't know what exactly Barrack was asked about, but it had to do with Manafort and Gates. I don't think it had to do with what the Emiratis or the Saudis..."}
{"id": "636254979", "date": "2018-08-07", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "'Into The Hands Of The Soldiers' Explores How The U.S. Contributed To Chaos In Egypt", "question_index": 36, "text": "You write that since Trump won the nomination that Barrack's company got more than $7 billion in investments, and 24 percent of those came from the Gulf - from the United Arab Emirates or Saudi Arabia.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...May have done to help Trump during the election."}
{"id": "636254979", "date": "2018-08-07", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "'Into The Hands Of The Soldiers' Explores How The U.S. Contributed To Chaos In Egypt", "question_index": 37, "text": "So you're living in London now, still working for The New York Times. And I'm wondering, like, if you think the lens through which you're seeing London has been affected from your years in Cairo.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. I'm relying on people inside the company for those numbers. But no matter how you slice it, those are big numbers, and a lot of it is coming from the UAE and Saudi Arabia. They're real m"}
{"id": "636254979", "date": "2018-08-07", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "'Into The Hands Of The Soldiers' Explores How The U.S. Contributed To Chaos In Egypt", "question_index": 38, "text": "Well, David Kirkpatrick, I want to thank you so much. It's always good to talk with you. Thank you, and congratulations on your book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My time in Cairo and covering the Arab Spring has made me much more sensitive than I was previously to what I guess I should just call anti-Muslim bigotry. I find that when I move in sophisticated lib"}
{"id": "636254979", "date": "2018-08-07", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "'Into The Hands Of The Soldiers' Explores How The U.S. Contributed To Chaos In Egypt", "question_index": 39, "text": "David Kirkpatrick is an international correspondent for The New York Times. He covered the Egyptian revolution and subsequent coup when he was the Times' Cairo bureau chief. His new book is called \"Into The Hands Of The Soldiers: Freedom And Chaos In Egypt And The Middle East.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, my guest will be Jennifer Fox, the writer and director of the Emmy-nominated HBO film \"The Tale,\" a fictional memoir based on her experience being sexually abused at age 13 by her running coach. It took her years to realize that the story she told herself then, that this was a relationship based on love, was really a story of child sexual abuse. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a pleasure. Thanks for having me back."}
{"id": "636254979", "date": "2018-08-07", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "'Into The Hands Of The Soldiers' Explores How The U.S. Contributed To Chaos In Egypt", "question_index": 40, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Mooj Zadie, Thea Chaloner and Seth Kelley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a pleasure. Thanks for having me back."}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 0, "text": "David Sedaris, welcome back to FRESH AIR. I'm so excited to be able to talk with you again. But before we talk - and there's so much I want to talk with you about - before we talk, I want you to do a short reading from the introduction to your new book of diaries.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, editor of the website TV Worth Watching, sitting in for Terry Gross. Today's guest, David Sedaris, is a familiar and widely embraced public radio voice and pers"}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 1, "text": "That's David Sedaris reading from the introduction to his new book \"Theft By Finding,\" which is a collection of his diaries from 1977 to 2002. David, why did you decide to publish your journals as opposed to stories based on your journals?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd be happy to. (Reading) The early years, 1977 to 1983, were the bleakest. I was writing my diaries by hand back then. The letters were small and fueled by meth. A typical entry would go on for page"}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 2, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when I was in college in 19 - probably in 1986, I was in a painting critique. And in a painting critique, you'd put up your work and you'd talk about it. And one of the things I noticed pretty e"}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Or maybe there are two other customers. But that is your audience. When you go to the grocery store, your audience is waiting. But the people in my class had no sense of that. And so they would tal"}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 4, "text": "So also in the reading that you just did, you mention that you did a lot of your writing on meth. And it made me think about - because there was a period of your life when you were doing a lot of drugs. You had to buy those drugs. And knowing that there's a part of you who is so interested in other people - who sees, like, the world as kind of, like, a stage - do you know what I mean? Not necessarily one for you to perform on but, like, you're in the audience and you're watching people behave. And you seem to find, like, going to a grocery store the night before Thanksgiving and watching people kind of panic-buying is great entertainment for you. So when you had to buy drugs from dealers - I don't know if you got them from friends or if you had to, like, you know, meet strangers on the street or in the car or in the park or whatever - did it expose you to people who were, like, really maybe a little frightening but also, like, really interesting to you? And were you, yourself, or did you become somebody else around them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I started reading from my diary back then. And when something would work, I would put it into a file that said - that was called diary that works. So really - probably after my second or third book"}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 5, "text": "So there's another entry I want you to read. And I'm asking you to read this with some reservations because I'm mentioned in this. And that's part of the reason why I want you to read it and that's part of the reason why I feel awkward asking you to read it. But I have a really serious question about this that I want to ask you after you're done reading it. So would you read this entry from your journals, David?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's return to Terry's 2017 interview with David Sedaris. They're discussing \"Theft By Finding,\" which features his self-curated journal entries telling of his life and thoughts fr"}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 6, "text": "So as I was telling you before we started the interview, reading that made me feel so honored and, like, oh, like I won the David Sedaris award.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. (Reading) February 16, 1988, Chicago. Reasons to live - one, Christmas, two, the family beach trip, three, writing a published book, four, seeing my name in a magazine, five, watching C. grow ba"}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 7, "text": "But it also made me worried because the headline on that entry is reasons to live. And I really didn't know how to interpret that. Was that, like, oh, things to look forward to in life or did it mean reasons not to kill yourself? I wasn't sure how to interpret reasons to live.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 8, "text": "Is it something you were just toy - like, how serious were you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was reasons not to kill myself. You know, I mean, there are certain people in my life who didn't care to be in this book. And so I cut them out. And I had broken up with somebody. And I was, you kn"}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 9, "text": "Do you mean, like, depression or some other...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't - you know, generally I find that when people kill themselves, they have something else going on, you know? Like, you might break up with somebody or you might declare bankruptcy and you might"}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 10, "text": "...Like, mental health issue.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 11, "text": "Well, in terms of being interviewed on FRESH AIR, many times", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 12, "text": "since then.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 13, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I used to..."}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 14, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I was working - at that point in my life, I was mainly doing odd jobs and refinishing wood work in people's houses. And so I would listen to your show."}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 15, "text": "Anita...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I would write - I wrote about it a lot in my diary. I wrote about..."}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 16, "text": "Anita O'Day not having a uvula so she didn't have vibrato", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Anita O'Day when you interviewed her."}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Anita O'Day when you interviewed her."}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And also when you interviewed her, she said, the name's O'Day. That's pig Latin for money, honey, and plenty of it."}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 19, "text": "When you wanted to be somebody, what were you picturing, like, what kind of somebody?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I don't know if she was drinking during the interview or whatever, but it was completely captivating. But, I don't know, I just wanted something so bad, you know? I just wanted to - I really d"}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 20, "text": "Because your parents assumed you'd be one.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It wasn't like oh, I have to be the president, but there were certain things that I wanted. That doesn't mean you're going to get it. But it's scary. Like, in that list, it's scary to put that list to"}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 21, "text": "That's good.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, not my mom so much, but, you know, my father, I mean, yeah. So it was scary to - it's always scary to announce what you want, even to yourself. Because if you don't get it - the only thing on th"}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 22, "text": "I think that is good.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Which that's good."}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 23, "text": "So now that you have the life that you wanted and that you are \"somebody,\" in that sense, you know, with quotation marks around it, is the life what you expected it to be?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 24, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have to tell you. It is everything that I thought it would be. Like, I don't want people to think that then you get it, and you get tired of it, or you think, oh, it wasn't what I wanted. It's exact"}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 25, "text": "You were invited to Buckingham.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...It would be. It's exactly what I wanted. That said, you know, I mean, that's very nice, and I'm on a book tour. And, you know, and I get to stay in nice hotels. But when I go home, I mean, I spend "}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 26, "text": "I knew they named a trash truck after you. You were invited to - like, wow, because you're picking up trash. And just to put this in context, you live in, was it, West Sussex, England?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...(Unintelligible)."}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 27, "text": "And there's hills around you, but people throw stuff out of their car all the time. And so your thing is picking up trash. And you used to clean houses for a living back in \"The Santaland Diaries\" era. So it kind of continues something you've always done. And you've always wanted to do outdoor work during the day, so it just kind of - or some kind of work during the day. So it fits a pattern in your life, that's for certain. But, wow, Buckingham Palace. Might you become, like, Sir David Sedaris, not for your writing but because you're picking up trash", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 28, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 29, "text": "Oh", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the queen has a day when she invites do-gooders - 'cause I thought it was going to be me and Hugh and the Queen. And I got there and there were 8,000 do-gooders."}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 30, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the queen has a day when she invites do-gooders - 'cause I thought it was going to be me and Hugh and the Queen. And I got there and there were 8,000 do-gooders."}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 31, "text": "That's great", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And some of them were cancer research or some of them were - oh goodness - work preserving buildings. And so I didn't meet the queen. I stood, like, 6 feet away from her. That was enough for me. So it"}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 32, "text": ". And you didn't pick it up...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And some of them were cancer research or some of them were - oh goodness - work preserving buildings. And so I didn't meet the queen. I stood, like, 6 feet away from her. That was enough for me. So it"}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 33, "text": "...Though, right? You didn't take it on yourself to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I couldn't believe what I was seeing."}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 34, "text": "...Clean up after them? Oh", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that was my day off."}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 35, "text": ". March 21, 1991, you write, this spring, I am, if I'm not mistaken, in love. Had you been in love like that before with somebody who reciprocated?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that was my day off."}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 36, "text": "November...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I was in love once before. But it was a little bit different. It was a little bit different with Hugh because Hugh didn't seem to be - he wasn't - didn't have one - his one eye on me and the othe"}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 37, "text": "November 1, 1991, you move in with Hugh. Then November 14, two weeks later, your mother dies - two momentous things happening within two weeks of each other, one wonderful and one terrible. I'd like you to read some of your entry from November 14, 1991.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He seemed happy with just me."}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 38, "text": "I am just so moved when you write - she didn't expect to die yesterday, did she? - that things were still in process in her life - the unfinished crossword puzzle - when, you know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. (Reading) November 14, 1991, Raleigh. Mom died last night, suddenly of pneumonia, brought on by her chemotherapy. Amy called to tell me, and now we're all in Raleigh. Dad gave us the option of s"}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 39, "text": "When you were deciding to write about your mother's death, how did you decide what to write or what to finally publish in this book about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she got pneumonia from the chemotherapy. And so she couldn't breathe, and so she was rushed to the hospital. And so that was how she died."}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 40, "text": "And he was a close friend of yours who was a wonderful writer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Gosh, well - you know how, like, when people get sick sometimes, you just - you don't want to acknowledge that they're sick because that seems to be - I don't know. Like, with my mother, like, I would"}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 41, "text": "My impression is maybe that you were trying to let David Rakoff and your mother let you know if they were ready to talk about impending death as opposed to you telling them...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He died five - it was five years ago. He had Hodgkin's lymphoma - and it - years ago, and then he had radiation for it. And then the radiation brought - caused a new kind of cancer. And when I last sa"}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 42, "text": "...That it was impending, you were waiting for them to tell you. And if they didn't, you were going to play it their way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 43, "text": "How did your mother's death change your relationship with your father?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's 2017 interview with David Sedaris. His best-selling books - including his latest, a collection of short stories cal"}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 44, "text": "I want to talk with you about your sister Tiffany who took her life. Well, actually, I'm not really sure how she died. I'll ask you about that in a moment. But you wrote about her in The New Yorker. But I want - there's a couple of short entries from your book I want you to read. The first is October 3, 1977. But before you read it, tell us, like, where she fit in your family, which had six children in it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my mother always really liked me. I feel very fortunate to have been loved by my mother. And - so you know how it can be in a family, right? And so it really bothered my father. And I would come"}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 45, "text": "Can you read that entry for us from...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My sister Tiffany was child number five, so she was the youngest girl and the second to the youngest child. There were six kids in the family. And she - you know, it's interesting. Looking back over h"}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 46, "text": "...October 3, 1997?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 47, "text": "Do you think that she was having a mental health issue?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) October 3, 1997, New York. Tiffany called collect this morning, sobbing and saying that she can't leave the house. It happens every so often. Other days, she can leave but still wakes up cry"}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 48, "text": "So there's another short paragraph I want you to read from an entry from November 9, 2000.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was funny because when you talked to Tiffany, there was nothing wrong with her. And then you'd think, well, if there's nothing wrong with you, why can't you leave the house, right? Why can't "}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 49, "text": "You write about how Tiffany tried to push away the family, maybe because she was so angry about being sent away. And you said that for a year, you'd send a letter I think, like, every month. And she wouldn't read them. Oh, she asked you to stop. You write that you sent her monthly letters for a year, and then she wrote you and asked you to stop. What did you think your options were in trying to, you know, be there for her when she was kind of pushing you away and also being in such a state of depression and living in a real hellhole, judging from how you've described it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) On Tuesday afternoon, she cried while telling me a story she'd recounted a year before. She cries a lot. And the episodes generally end with a list of things she's doing for herself. I get o"}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 50, "text": "She was, I think, living in Massachusetts when she died.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I feel like Tiffany had this story, and the story was that the family was horrible to her. And that had to be the story. That had to be the story that she maintained to her friends. She couldn't chang"}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 51, "text": "And you write that she'd been dead at least five days before her door was battered down. That's so disturbing. That's, like, everybody's nightmare, to not only, like, die alone but, like, no one knows that you've died.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, she was living in Somerville, Mass."}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 52, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, plus she had two roommates. She had two roommates. And they said, well, I guess our smoking - I guess we didn't notice the smell because we smoke a lot. I mean, you'd have to smoke a lot..."}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 53, "text": "Do you know if she killed herself or, like, what happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...To not notice that in, like, 80-degree weather or 80-plus-degree weather for five days."}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 54, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. She had saved up a lot of medication, Klonopin, and taken the Klonopin."}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 55, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And she had done that months before, and it didn't work. So this time, she put a plastic bag over her head to make sure that it would work. I mean, she really wanted out."}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 56, "text": "Just one more question about your sister. She had asked in her will that you not attend her memorial or have control over her remains. Did you honor that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She really - and she - you know, there was a letter that - my sister Amy went up there afterwards and found a letter. And it was so disjointed and so - I mean, if that was the state of my mind, I'd pr"}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 57, "text": "I want to ask you about another turning point in your life and that's when you gave up drinking, which you write about in your diaries. How did you know that you needed to stop? Like, what was that turning point for you?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2017 interview with David Sedaris. They're discussing \"Theft By Finding,\" his personally selected collection of journal entries from the years 1977 to 2002"}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 58, "text": "So was it hard to stop?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "? It was really a lot of work. And I would be, you know, going back to a hotel room after - I would be on a book tour. And so I'm signing books. And then let's say I get back to the room at, like, 1 o"}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 59, "text": "Why? Why is that true?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't. I just had it in my head that it showed on my face. And I quit. And, you know, there were a couple people who said, oh, well, you know, why don't you just have a drink? I mean, it's not goin"}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 60, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, if you don't drink, people say, well, I don't trust people who don't drink. And it's like, well, then you're just going to have to not trust me. I mean, there's something in the book. I was "}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 61, "text": "Why do you say tragic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...The bride and groom. But if she had known what she was doing, then I don't know that she would have - it just didn't occur to her. I guess she just thought I was being obstinate or something. Somet"}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 62, "text": "Right. Yeah. David, I have so enjoyed talking with you again. Thank you so much for coming back to the show. Congratulations on the book. It's just absolutely fascinating to read it", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To maybe drive it in a little bit deeper."}
{"id": "637343132", "date": "2018-08-10", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris On The Life-Altering And Mundane Pages Of His Old Diaries", "question_index": 63, "text": ". So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To maybe drive it in a little bit deeper."}
{"id": "637484017", "date": "2018-08-13", "guest": "Seymour Stein", "title": "Sire Records Co-Founder Seymour Stein Reflects On Life In 'The Pursuit Of Music'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest has had a huge impact on music by signing such groundbreaking artists as the Ramones, Talking Heads, Richard Hell and the Voidoids, Madonna, Ice-T and k.d. lang. He released solo albums by Lou Reed and Brian Wilson. Seymour Stein co-founded Sire Records in 1966 and continued to run it decades after his founding partner left the company. Stein got his start in the record industry when he was still in his teens working at King Records, which specialized in R&B and had James Brown and The Famous Flames on its roster. Stein has a new autobiography called \"Siren Song: My Life In Music.\" Seymour Stein, welcome back to FRESH AIR. In your book, you write, I'm a hit man, a record business entrepreneur. What I'm not is a producer like Phil Spector or Quincy Jones. I can't play any instrument. I can't operate a studio. My exact job description is A&R, artist and repertoire, the old show business term for talent hunting. How do you think not being a musician has been both a shortcoming and an advantage for you?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "637484017", "date": "2018-08-13", "guest": "Seymour Stein", "title": "Sire Records Co-Founder Seymour Stein Reflects On Life In 'The Pursuit Of Music'", "question_index": 1, "text": "You started in the record business at age 15 when Syd Nathan, the founder of King Records, convinced your father to allow you to spend summers in Cincinnati at King's headquarters.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that, for me, it's been somewhat of an advantage because what I listen to, first and foremost, are the songs. And I always feel that an artist as a performer can always get better and us"}
{"id": "637484017", "date": "2018-08-13", "guest": "Seymour Stein", "title": "Sire Records Co-Founder Seymour Stein Reflects On Life In 'The Pursuit Of Music'", "question_index": 2, "text": "You were just really pivotal in the punk movement in America. You signed the Ramones, one of the first punk rock bands. How were you tipped off about them? How did you know to go hear them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no. No, that's not exactly correct. I started really going up to Billboard when I was 15 years old, just to copy down the charts because I had kept the charts religiously from around - when I wa"}
{"id": "637484017", "date": "2018-08-13", "guest": "Seymour Stein", "title": "Sire Records Co-Founder Seymour Stein Reflects On Life In 'The Pursuit Of Music'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Do you have a favorite track from the Ramones among the records that you put out on Sire?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had heard about them from a number of people, but I think mostly from Danny Fields. And I had wanted to go see them a couple of times, but I was in England. And I came back particularly to see them."}
{"id": "637484017", "date": "2018-08-13", "guest": "Seymour Stein", "title": "Sire Records Co-Founder Seymour Stein Reflects On Life In 'The Pursuit Of Music'", "question_index": 4, "text": "So let's hear \"Blitzkrieg Bop\" by the Ramones on an album released by Sire Records, which is the label co-created by my guest, Seymour Stein, who still has Sire Records.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I suppose, you know, what always comes to mind immediately is \"Blitzkrieg Bop.\" There are so many of their songs that I like, but \"Blitzkrieg Bop,\" I think, is my favorite."}
{"id": "637484017", "date": "2018-08-13", "guest": "Seymour Stein", "title": "Sire Records Co-Founder Seymour Stein Reflects On Life In 'The Pursuit Of Music'", "question_index": 5, "text": "So that's the Ramones, one of the great bands signed by my guest, Seymour Stein of Sire Records. So you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hey, ho. Let's go. Hey, ho. Let's go. Hey, ho. Let's go. Hey, ho Let's go. (Singing) They're forming in a straight line. They're going through a tight wind. The kids are losing their minds. The blitzk"}
{"id": "637484017", "date": "2018-08-13", "guest": "Seymour Stein", "title": "Sire Records Co-Founder Seymour Stein Reflects On Life In 'The Pursuit Of Music'", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yeah. Go ahead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I..."}
{"id": "637484017", "date": "2018-08-13", "guest": "Seymour Stein", "title": "Sire Records Co-Founder Seymour Stein Reflects On Life In 'The Pursuit Of Music'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wait - one correction. I don't still have Sire Records. About a month ago, I left. And..."}
{"id": "637484017", "date": "2018-08-13", "guest": "Seymour Stein", "title": "Sire Records Co-Founder Seymour Stein Reflects On Life In 'The Pursuit Of Music'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, that's interesting because in your book - and granted, you write the book, like, months or a year before it's actually published.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know - yes. I left Sire, and I left Warner Bros. And I'm now interested in pursuing new objectives in music."}
{"id": "637484017", "date": "2018-08-13", "guest": "Seymour Stein", "title": "Sire Records Co-Founder Seymour Stein Reflects On Life In 'The Pursuit Of Music'", "question_index": 9, "text": "In the book, you keep saying, like, I'm still in the music biz; I still have Sire Records; I'm 75, but I still got the company. So what was the turning point for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "637484017", "date": "2018-08-13", "guest": "Seymour Stein", "title": "Sire Records Co-Founder Seymour Stein Reflects On Life In 'The Pursuit Of Music'", "question_index": 10, "text": "OK. So let's get back to the Ramones. It was very hard for you to get any kind of radio play for the Ramones because - because why? And we're talking at a time when there's like - there's AM, and there's FM. And FM is more album-oriented then, and AM is still, like, singles. So at the risk of asking the obvious, why was it so hard to get the Ramones some airplay?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, a number of reasons - I'd rather not go into them right now. But I want to get back a little bit more to, you know, my indie roots. And, you know, that's what it's really all about."}
{"id": "637484017", "date": "2018-08-13", "guest": "Seymour Stein", "title": "Sire Records Co-Founder Seymour Stein Reflects On Life In 'The Pursuit Of Music'", "question_index": 11, "text": "So one of the things you tried to do to get your bands airplay was to tell your promotion people, don't use the word punk; use the word new wave. Why did you do that? And was it effective?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think they were kind of misunderstood and not fully appreciated. And that was in the United States. But when we finally got them out of the United States and, you know, touring in England, they were"}
{"id": "637484017", "date": "2018-08-13", "guest": "Seymour Stein", "title": "Sire Records Co-Founder Seymour Stein Reflects On Life In 'The Pursuit Of Music'", "question_index": 12, "text": "So let's talk about Talking Heads. You heard them kind of accidentally the first time around. Correct me if I'm wrong. But you went to hear new songs by the Ramones at a club.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that really came about with the Talking Heads because they were describing them as punk, and they were the furthest thing from punk. I said, look; New York used to be the absolute center of the "}
{"id": "637484017", "date": "2018-08-13", "guest": "Seymour Stein", "title": "Sire Records Co-Founder Seymour Stein Reflects On Life In 'The Pursuit Of Music'", "question_index": 13, "text": "Talking Heads was opening for them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "637484017", "date": "2018-08-13", "guest": "Seymour Stein", "title": "Sire Records Co-Founder Seymour Stein Reflects On Life In 'The Pursuit Of Music'", "question_index": 14, "text": "And that's how you heard them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, and..."}
{"id": "637484017", "date": "2018-08-13", "guest": "Seymour Stein", "title": "Sire Records Co-Founder Seymour Stein Reflects On Life In 'The Pursuit Of Music'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Johnny Ramone?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a surprise opening. They weren't supposed to be the opening act. But I had heard about Talking Heads. But they were not spending that much time in New York. They were very early involved in vid"}
{"id": "637484017", "date": "2018-08-13", "guest": "Seymour Stein", "title": "Sire Records Co-Founder Seymour Stein Reflects On Life In 'The Pursuit Of Music'", "question_index": 16, "text": "So I want to play a track from their first album that you released, \"Talking Heads: 77.\" And this is \"Psycho Killer,\" which is such a - it's such a great track.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Johnny Ramone, yes. And so I came down. I investigated what the opening band was going to be. And they were a band called The Shirts, which I had seen and liked but not liked enough to sign. And so I "}
{"id": "637484017", "date": "2018-08-13", "guest": "Seymour Stein", "title": "Sire Records Co-Founder Seymour Stein Reflects On Life In 'The Pursuit Of Music'", "question_index": 17, "text": "OK. So let's hear Talking Heads. And this is \"Psycho Killer.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Fabulous."}
{"id": "637484017", "date": "2018-08-13", "guest": "Seymour Stein", "title": "Sire Records Co-Founder Seymour Stein Reflects On Life In 'The Pursuit Of Music'", "question_index": 18, "text": "So that was the Talking Head's \"Psycho Killer\" from their first album, \"Talking Heads: 77\" after they were signed by my guest Seymour Stein, who co-founded Sire Records and continued to operate it until just a few weeks ago. He has a new autobiography called \"Siren Song: My Life In Music.\" We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I can't seem to face up to the facts. I'm tense and nervous, and I can't relax. I can't sleep cause my bed's on fire. Don't touch me. I'm a real live wire. Psycho killer, qu'est-ce que c'est"}
{"id": "637484017", "date": "2018-08-13", "guest": "Seymour Stein", "title": "Sire Records Co-Founder Seymour Stein Reflects On Life In 'The Pursuit Of Music'", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Seymour Stein. And he is the man behind Sire Records. He signed groups like the Ramones, Madonna, Talking Heads, The Pretenders, The Replacements, Ice-T, k.d. lang, Lou Reed and Brian Wilson when they were doing solo records. His new autobiography is called \"Siren Song: My Life In Music.\" So let's talk about another great performer that you signed, and that's Madonna.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I can't seem to face up to the facts. I'm tense and nervous, and I can't relax. I can't sleep cause my bed's on fire. Don't touch me. I'm a real live wire. Psycho killer, qu'est-ce que c'est"}
{"id": "637484017", "date": "2018-08-13", "guest": "Seymour Stein", "title": "Sire Records Co-Founder Seymour Stein Reflects On Life In 'The Pursuit Of Music'", "question_index": 20, "text": "And you signed her under the most unusual of circumstances. You were in the hospital...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "637484017", "date": "2018-08-13", "guest": "Seymour Stein", "title": "Sire Records Co-Founder Seymour Stein Reflects On Life In 'The Pursuit Of Music'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Explain why you were there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I did."}
{"id": "637484017", "date": "2018-08-13", "guest": "Seymour Stein", "title": "Sire Records Co-Founder Seymour Stein Reflects On Life In 'The Pursuit Of Music'", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is in the hospital you're agreeing on - to all this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, let's go back a little before that. Mark Kamins was someone that I thought had a lot of potential as a producer or a scout and everything. I gave him some money, $18,000, to try to find some art"}
{"id": "637484017", "date": "2018-08-13", "guest": "Seymour Stein", "title": "Sire Records Co-Founder Seymour Stein Reflects On Life In 'The Pursuit Of Music'", "question_index": 23, "text": "He ran Island Records.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In the hospital. Yes, in the hospital, me and Madonna and Mark Kamins. And she walked out of there very happy. And I went to bed very happy that night. And that was great. And later I learned that she"}
{"id": "637484017", "date": "2018-08-13", "guest": "Seymour Stein", "title": "Sire Records Co-Founder Seymour Stein Reflects On Life In 'The Pursuit Of Music'", "question_index": 24, "text": "So of the early tracks that you recorded with her, do you have a favorite?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he owned Island Records and ran it - had turned her down. And other people had turned her down. I couldn't believe it because to me it was a no-brainer. And it was a great day in my life."}
{"id": "637484017", "date": "2018-08-13", "guest": "Seymour Stein", "title": "Sire Records Co-Founder Seymour Stein Reflects On Life In 'The Pursuit Of Music'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well why don't we hear \"Borderline\"? So this is Madonna, one of her first tracks after she was signed by Sire Records, the record company of my guest, Seymour Stein, who has a new autobiography.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that the song I like best and was really the song that became the one that launched her most was \"Borderline.\" I loved it. But I liked everything that she did."}
{"id": "637484017", "date": "2018-08-13", "guest": "Seymour Stein", "title": "Sire Records Co-Founder Seymour Stein Reflects On Life In 'The Pursuit Of Music'", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Seymour Stein. And he owned and operated Sire Records for decades - until very recently. Among the performers he signed were The Ramones, Talking Heads, Madonna, The Pretenders, The Replacements, Ice-T, k.d. lang, Lou Reed and Brian Wilson, when they were solo performers. And the track that we just heard, \"Borderline,\" was one of the first tracks that Madonna recorded for Sire Records after he signed her. Do you ever have a conflict in terms of how much listening you want to do to music of the past and how much you want to listen to what's happening right now? I know I experience that in my life because I like a lot of early recordings from the '20s and '30s and '40s and '50s. And I want to listen to that, but I also want to know what's happening now. And there just is a limited amount of time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Something in the way you love me won't let me be. I don't want to be your prisoner. So, baby, won't you set me free? Stop playing with my heart. Finish what you start when you make my love c"}
{"id": "637484017", "date": "2018-08-13", "guest": "Seymour Stein", "title": "Sire Records Co-Founder Seymour Stein Reflects On Life In 'The Pursuit Of Music'", "question_index": 27, "text": "Seymour Stein, thank you so much for talking with us. And thank you for signing the bands that you signed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I agree with you completely on that. I try to listen as much as I can to new music. But I probably don't listen to enough. But the older you get, the more attached you also to the past. But I try"}
{"id": "637484017", "date": "2018-08-13", "guest": "Seymour Stein", "title": "Sire Records Co-Founder Seymour Stein Reflects On Life In 'The Pursuit Of Music'", "question_index": 28, "text": "Seymour Stein's new memoir is called \"Siren Song: My Life In Music.\" Let's hear a great Brian Wilson recording \"Love And Mercy\" on Sire Records, released after Stein signed Wilson to record solo. And then after a break, we'll hear from Jim Gavin, the creator of the new AMC comedy series \"Lodge 49.\" I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I appreciate it very much."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Missiles, smart weapons were the family business for my guest, Karen Piper. In 1971, when she was 6, her family moved to the secretive China Lake naval weapons center and test site in the Mojave Desert where her parents designed missiles. Her father worked on the Sidewinder missile. It was his job to make sure it hit its targets. Her mother worked on the Tomahawk missile. Her sister worked on base inventory counting circuit boards and bombs. And when Karen was in her teens, she worked as a secretary. But everything involving work had to be kept secret, even within the family. Karen Piper has written a new memoir called \"A Girl's Guide To Missiles: Growing Up In America's Secret Desert.\" The book also has the story of a cover-up on the test site. Her other books include \"The Price Of Thirst: Global Water Inequality And The Coming Chaos\" and \"Left In The Dust: How Race And Politics Created A Human And Environmental Tragedy In L.A.\" She's a professor of literature and geography at the University of Missouri. Karen Piper, welcome to FRESH AIR. Tell us more about what kinds of weapons were made and tested at China Lake when you were growing up.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 1, "text": "What an environment to grow up in.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All kinds of weapons, but the premier weapon that everyone is proud of on the base is the Sidewinder because it's had the widest and most continuous use since it went into production in 1956. But we a"}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 2, "text": "So I guess this is asking the obvious, but why was it located in a desert?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 3, "text": "Describe the work that your parents did.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, that's kind of a funny story because it was initially that these rocket scientists were at Caltech in Pasadena. And they would go into the back canyons and just shoot off missiles. Well, the neigh"}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 4, "text": "So your father analyzed the pitch and roll of the weapons. What does that mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My dad was a aerodynamicist on the Sidewinder missile. And my mom was a computer scientist. She worked on the circuitry for the Tomahawk missile mainly but also other missiles."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 5, "text": "So he was like the smart part of the smart weapon.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Roll is when a missile starts to spin. A pitch is when it pitches up or down. They can actually turn right around and, like, hit the pilot if they pitch. And so he used to explain those things to me a"}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 6, "text": "And your mother eventually prepared the simulation programs and test plans for your father to follow on his pitch and roll evaluations.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, the smart part would be more the brains in the missiles, so what tells the missile to locate a target. So for the Sidewinder, it's, like, infrared radiation. It can pick up the heat of a p"}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 7, "text": "This is how secretive your family had to be.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there is something I didn't - I mean, I only learned a few years back. I had no idea until I found my mother's secret notes and read them. So it still amazes me to think about that because I tho"}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 8, "text": "So it sounds like it would have been a very frightening place to grow up in as a child because, after all, missiles were being tested there, not just designed. So there's a short reading I want you to do from your book that describes what it was like, like, how frightening it was to be on the test site.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 9, "text": "So what was it like for you growing up in that environment? How frightened were you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) There were so many things to be frightened of at night - jets crashing on you, bombs accidentally landing on your house. Sometimes parachuters suddenly fell from the sky or a man flew by in "}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 10, "text": "How often did you see something especially peculiar, like somebody parachuting from the sky or somebody flying by in an ejection seat?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's complicated because I would say I wasn't really frightened on the surface. It was like a subliminal thing. So you see explosions going off across the street. You hear these jets flying overhead. "}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 11, "text": "What was your understanding of war and how the missiles that your parents helped design could be used or were being used?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, that was something that was very - that was pretty rare. What was common was just the low-flying jets all the time, and the sonic booms rattling the windows was just - drove me crazy as a kid. And"}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, let's take a break. There's plenty more to talk about. If you're just joining us, my guest is Karen Piper. And she's the author of the new book \"A Girl's Guide To Missiles.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's the huge question in the book. And for me, I think I started writing the book because I didn't really understand how war connected to my life growing up. You know, there's these weapons of war "}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Karen Piper. Her new memoir, \"A Girl's Guide To Missiles,\" is about growing up in the Mojave Desert on the secretive China Lake Naval Weapons Center and Test Site where her father worked on the design of the Sidewinder missile and her mother on the Tomahawk missile. So when you and your family moved to this desert-based missile design and test site, the Vietnam War was still under way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's the huge question in the book. And for me, I think I started writing the book because I didn't really understand how war connected to my life growing up. You know, there's these weapons of war "}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 14, "text": "And the missile your father was working on, the Sidewinder, was one of the primary weapons...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 15, "text": "...In Vietnam that we were using there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 16, "text": "Did your father talk about the war in Vietnam?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 17, "text": "But then he found out, as everybody else did, that this was secret bombing. It was intentional...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The only thing I really knew about Vietnam was what I saw on TV. But they - my parents would really limit what we watched on TV, so not much. But I knew - I remembered that when this issue with Cambod"}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 18, "text": "...Secret bombing that was kept from the American public. And apparently, it was kept from the missile designers as well. So what was his reaction when he found out the truth?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 19, "text": "Because your parents were Christian.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He didn't really say. But I think that - my dad didn't talk much, so I was always looking for clues as to what he was thinking or what was going on. Watergate was just a mystery to me as a kid. But I "}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 20, "text": "And they took that really seriously.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, exactly."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 21, "text": "Well, yeah. You say it had - the Sidewinder had only a 16 percent accuracy rate in Vietnam. That is really low when you're talking about a missile.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah. And then the other thing from Vietnam was my dad was tense. And over time, I gradually learned that it was because he was afraid the Sidewinder wasn't working as it was supposed to. And it"}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 22, "text": "When you think of all the missiles that struck places and people that weren't really targets, that's - it's very upsetting. And your father was involved...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 23, "text": "...With the targeting. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 24, "text": "Yeah. But you found out that there was a cover-up...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. He wanted those missiles to hit their targets. And - yeah. They weren't."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 25, "text": "...When it came to the accuracy of the missiles.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was..."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 26, "text": "So your father knew that test results were being falsified to make the missiles look better than they really were. Did he feel there was anybody he could talk to about this at work?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That - and that was later. But that was - and I feel very lucky that my dad let that secret slip with me because he didn't tell anyone else in the family. And he only told me once. When we were "}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 27, "text": "Do you think...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My dad was a very humble person and a little insecure. I think he always - he just saw himself as a lowly engineer, and this is something the guys above him want to do, and there's nothing he can do a"}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 28, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But..."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 29, "text": "So the period of the falsified test results, was that a period of the Sidewinder when your father was still working on the Sidewinder?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was any other person on base who did confront his bosses about that, and he got fired."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 30, "text": "And was that in the Vietnam era?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 31, "text": "Because it was heat-seeking.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. That was in the '80s. I'm - although, I'm not sure how far back it went. But the problems with the Sidewinder in the Vietnam era were due to the fact that they couldn't function. Sidewinders could"}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 32, "text": "I can't help but wonder, you know, how all of this made your father feel.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, exactly."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 33, "text": "And I know you didn't see much Vietnam war footage on TV because you weren't allowed to watch a lot of TV.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think he felt guilty, like, personally that it was his fault when it really wasn't, if that makes sense. I don't think he felt guilty that he didn't say anything. I think he felt guilty, like, he wa"}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 34, "text": "And I imagine that's in part because you came from a devout Christian family, and they probably didn't want you exposed to it. But was also - was it also that they didn't want you seeing the results of the missiles and other weapons that were being worked on in your home, you know, at the base where you live?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 35, "text": "Yeah. I'm thinking how far removed you were from everything...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think so. But I don't know. I mean, there always seemed like such a big disconnect between home and wars that's really hard to explain. So at the time, I didn't associate Vietnam with any of t"}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 36, "text": "...In the middle of a desert, let alone from the war in Vietnam. What a strange phenomenon. In a way, that's probably what makes it easier for people to design weapons - you know, being disconnected from their actual use.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, exactly. It's like a..."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 37, "text": "Your father used to work at Boeing in the space industry. He was an aeronautics engineer. So how did he end up working on missiles?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah. It's a little microcosm. It's its own little culture that seems far removed. I mean - and that's - it was designed to be that way, to be secret. So you do feel very disconnected from war. "}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 38, "text": "And this was after the Apollo space program ended.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He got laid off. So - and it was at a time when Boeing was really downsizing. So they laid off 30 percent of the workforce. And he was unemployed for six months. And then he got this job offer at Chin"}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 39, "text": "And that's why they were laying off so many people.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, the Apollo..."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 40, "text": "So when your mother moved out there with you and your sister, which was a few months after your father moved out because your mother had to sell the family home first, she actually did learn about missiles. Her training was in medical technology.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. The Apollo mission had just ended, and they were putting more money into war. And so my dad was working on the space shuttle at Boeing, and so he got laid off."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 41, "text": "So what did she learn at first? What was she taught?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 42, "text": "Was this a minimal amount or a maximum number of women to hire - the quota?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was hired as a math aide. And, you know, the base had a quota for women. And they encouraged women to..."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 43, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A minimum amount."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 44, "text": "Yeah, you say that math was considered women's work at the base. Why is that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so they really wanted more women to work out there. And so they would train them. And so my mom - you know, they had their own classes or they would send them to nearby colleges for classes. And s"}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 45, "text": "Or probably a degree of respect...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's interesting. It was considered clerical, you know, that you have, like, a little calculator and that's what, you know, women do, things like that. But then these calculators gradually turne"}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 46, "text": "...That reflected that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, exactly."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 47, "text": "My guest is Karen Piper, author of the new memoir \"A Girl's Guide To Missiles.\" After a break, we'll talk more about what scared her as a child - scared her even more than the missiles - the rapture. And jazz critic Kevin Whitehead will review new album by clarinetist Andy Biskin of songs collected by folklorist Alan Lomax. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 48, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Karen Piper, author of the new memoir \"A Girl's Guide To Missiles\" about growing up on the secretive China Lake Naval Weapons Center and Test Site in the Mojave Desert. Her father worked on the design of the Sidewinder missile - her mother, on the Tomahawk missile. The family moved to the site in 1971 when Karen was 6. In her teens, she worked as a secretary at the weapons center. Her other books include \"The Price Of Thirst: Global Water Inequality And The Coming Chaos.\" Karen Piper is a professor of literature and geography at the University of Missouri. So your mother, I think, hardly considered herself a feminist. She thought her job was to follow her husband. That's how she got into this field in the first place. But she was nevertheless an example of how a woman could have a lot of complicated responsibility. You write she designed a laser barcoding program years before anyone had heard of such a thing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 49, "text": "So in spite of what she said about, you know, a woman being secondary to a man and everything, was she, like, an inspiration to you watching the work that she did? Although, now I'm thinking her work was so secretive you didn't even know what", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 50, "text": "she did.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 51, "text": "But it sounds like she followed traditional values. You know, you write that, in your family, you felt like the de facto head of the family because your father was indecisive, and your mother felt it was her responsibility to follow your father's decisions, so...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, not so much the work that she did but just her. She was very fiercely independent, actually, so she always taught me that I didn't need a man and that there's no reason to get married and just g"}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 52, "text": "They kind of equalized each other out and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 53, "text": "Did you ever get married?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. No, I think it's a contradiction with my mom. I mean, she has these ideas of, like, biblical principles for women. And so I was definitely taught, don't have sex before marriage, essentially. Bu"}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 54, "text": "Have you been married since then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I did. I was more romantic. And I got married in - after I went to graduate school in Eugene, Ore. He was a graduate student in the master's program there in environmental studies like I was. An"}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 55, "text": "So let's talk about the role of church in your life. Your parents were Baptists, and all the churches were off the military site because of separation of church and state. And that's why your family moved off the base into the surrounding - official town part surrounding the base, where everybody who lived there was attached to the base in some way. And you went to a Christian school, where you say you had to pledge allegiance to the American flag, the Christian flag and to the Bible.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I'm happily single now."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 56, "text": "What were the Christian flag and Bible pledges like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm hmm, the Bible."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 57, "text": "So in your science class, you learned that humans and dinosaurs lived at the same time, which they didn't. And there were other scientifically not-true things that might sound biblically correct but scientifically untrue that you learned in science class. And I think it's just kind of fascinating that a Christian school for the children of scientists...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I pledge allegiance to the Bible, God's holy word. Let it - oh, man, people who know it will get mad at me that I can't remember. Let it be a light in my heart and something or other. And the Christia"}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 58, "text": "...And engineers would be taught this kind of fake science.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 59, "text": "...That they'd be science deniers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 60, "text": "Did you learn those justifications in class? Did the teachers realize your parents were designing weapons and that you needed to hear a justification?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know. I know. It's, like, I don't understand it to this day, except that maybe the Baptists offered a very kind of comforting black-and-white view of the world. And I sometimes wondered if - with al"}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 61, "text": "There was a time when the traveling record breaker came to town to preach about the evils of rock music. Did he literally break records and destroy tapes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, so - that the Communists were evil - that was in my little booklets that I was - they were called Packets of Accelerated Christian Education - that I learned from. It was very anti-Communi"}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 62, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yeah. And I saw him one time on - there was a YouTube video of him, and I went, oh, my God, that's the guy. But I could never find it again because it just seemed so surreal. It's like, did I ima"}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 63, "text": "Did you have any records or tapes that he destroyed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was too solid. But, yeah. He would break them, and then he would do backmasking, where you play them backwards so you can hear Satan talking."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 64, "text": "Fast forward or backwards", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, because we weren't allowed to have records like that in the house. But the reason I went forward that time was because I had - in fourth grade, I had a little \"boyfriend,\" quote, unquote, where - "}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 65, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, because we weren't allowed to have records like that in the house. But the reason I went forward that time was because I had - in fourth grade, I had a little \"boyfriend,\" quote, unquote, where - "}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 66, "text": "So you grew up surrounded by missiles, but you say the most frightening thing was the rapture.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Forward. I didn't know you could do backwards. But I go - you know, there's this church, and they're saying, ooh, the Beatles are evil - you know? - and they're satanic. And so I was like, oh, no. And"}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 67, "text": "Tell us why.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 68, "text": "You lived in a world of apocalypse.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, because I - you know, I was a very devout Christian growing up, and there was this thing called the rapture that's going to take people away any day if you're not saved. And I was never quite su"}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 69, "text": "You know, it's like, wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Exactly."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 70, "text": "But, also, you're surrounded by missiles...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, there's movies about the rapture and the times of tribulations..."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 71, "text": "...And by unexploded ordnance. Like, one of the things you had to learn is like, be careful where you walk because it's a test site, might step on a bomb.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...That we had to watch. Yeah."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 72, "text": "...Or a lizard or a scorpion or tarantula.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 73, "text": "How old were you when you stopped believing in the rapture? And was it a relief to not have to worry about it anymore?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. But they were cool. They were my friends. They're pretty easy to avoid."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 74, "text": "Well, why don't we take a short break here? And then we'll talk some more.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I think what happened first is I stopped believing in hell when I was 9. I got kind of bored in church and - because they always said the same things over and over again, so I would just sit ther"}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 75, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Karen Piper, author of the new memoir, \"A Girl's Guide To Missiles.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 76, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is Karen Piper. Her new memoir, \"A Girl's Guide To Missiles,\" is about growing up in the Mojave Desert on the secretive China Lake naval weapons center and test site where her father worked on the design of the Sidewinder missile and her mother on the Tomahawk missile. So in 1991, at the start of the Persian Gulf War, after Iraq invaded Kuwait and then the U.S. bombed the Iraqis, you were teaching freshman English at the University of Oregon, Eugene, and you burned an American flag. Did it feel like you were betraying your past and your family to do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 77, "text": "Do you regret that you did that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No, not at all because after I went to Eugene, I had changed very quickly. I had already been changing in college at Westmont. Like, by then, I was drinking and dancing and doing all the things yo"}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 78, "text": "You've had a pretty adventurous life. For a book on transboundary water disputes, you traveled around the Syrian border, and I think this was maybe before the civil war, but ISIS was still very active in the region. Am I right about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No. I don't have the same - I mean, I'm afraid I'm going to get in trouble for saying that, but I don't have any kind of attachment to the flag. It seems like a piece of cloth to me."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 79, "text": "OK. You've made a lot of trips in various parts of developing countries. You write, you've fallen asleep to the sounds of gunfire, been caught up in riots and revolution...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was right before ISIS. It was right at the beginning of all that. So right after we left, ISIS was heating up and invading."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 80, "text": "...That you were used to military checkpoints, landmines, airport closures, and then, during a vacation in Patagonia where you went with your mother and you wanted to get away from all of that, the park, the national park that you were in in Chilean Patagonia was held hostage by protesters who surrounded the exits of the park and blocked it with burning tires to prevent anyone from leaving. The airport shut down. The park was running out of food and gas. And it was a very dangerous situation from which you eventually got out. And you wrote the next time - this was in an essay. You wrote the next time you want to take a vacation, you're going to stay home.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 81, "text": "...And that you think the days of tourism are over. And I want you to elaborate on that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 82, "text": "It's interesting that you would take a trip like that with your mother. And I think she was with you on the Syrian border, also.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And we made it out."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 83, "text": "So you learned a lot about your parents while you were writing your memoir. On the other hand, your mother learned a lot about you from reading the first draft of your memoir. Who do you think was more surprised by what they discovered, you or your mother?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yup. Yup. She wouldn't go to Iraq, though. That's the only place."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 84, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mother definitely because it's a - you know, I grew up in this little microculture that had its own little microculture within it. So there's the base, and then there's the Southern Baptist church "}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 85, "text": "Well, that's good.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I just thought, OK, well, at least that's over with, you know? Because at the very end, she's like I might not like some of this book, but I still love you."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 86, "text": "That's very good.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 87, "text": "Well, I think, judging from your book, that your mother is a really amazing woman who doesn't realize how amazing she is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was, like, any mother would think that, probably."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 88, "text": "Well, I want to thank you so much for talking with us. It's really been great. Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's how I see it. Yeah."}
{"id": "638543717", "date": "2018-08-14", "guest": "Karen Piper", "title": "'A Girl's Guide' To Growing Up On A Secretive Missile Test Site", "question_index": 89, "text": "Karen Piper is the author of the new memoir \"A Girl's Guide To Missiles.\" She's a professor of literature and geography at the University of Missouri. After we take a short break, jazz critic Kevin Whitehead will review a new album by clarinetist Andy Biskin of songs collected by folklorist Alan Lomax. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, thank you. I have enjoyed it."}
{"id": "638881705", "date": "2018-08-15", "guest": "Somini Sengupta", "title": "2018 Revealed Just How Ill-Prepared We Are For Climate Change", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. This summer of fire and swelter looks a lot like the future that scientists have been warning about in the era of climate change, and it's revealing in real time how unprepared much of the world remains for life on a hotter planet. That's what my guest Somini Sengupta wrote last week in her front-page New York Times article. Sengupta is the Times' international climate reporter, covering communities and landscapes most vulnerable to the effects of climate change, and that includes places in Africa, South Asia and Europe. One of the places she recently wrote about is the city of her birth, Kolkata, formerly called Calcutta, which she says is becoming a climate casualty. She left India with her family when she was 8 and emigrated first to Canada, then to the U.S. She returned to India to serve as The New York Times New Delhi bureau chief from 2005 to 2009. She's also been the Times bureau chief in West Africa and covered the U.S. invasion of Iraq and the war in Syria. In 2016, Sengupta wrote a book called \"The End Of Karma\" about the exploding youth population in India and what that might mean for the future of India and the world. Somini Sengupta, welcome to FRESH AIR. Can we start some examples of the record-breaking temperatures around the world this summer?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "638881705", "date": "2018-08-15", "guest": "Somini Sengupta", "title": "2018 Revealed Just How Ill-Prepared We Are For Climate Change", "question_index": 1, "text": "And it's on the heels of other exceptional years, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. It's been in really unusual places such as - Norway has had an unusually hot - record hot May and June. It's resulted in wildfires everywhere in Norway and in Sweden next door. In Algeria, in one"}
{"id": "638881705", "date": "2018-08-15", "guest": "Somini Sengupta", "title": "2018 Revealed Just How Ill-Prepared We Are For Climate Change", "question_index": 2, "text": "You know, scientists often say you can't attribute any, like, big storm or any intensively hot summer to climate change. You can't say any one event is caused by it. But do the scientists you've been talking to think there's enough of an established pattern to say this pattern is the result of climate change?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's right. I mean, it's not just a matter of whether it's hot this year or not. The thing about climate change is that what we're seeing is a steady trend line that's going up. So since the i"}
{"id": "638881705", "date": "2018-08-15", "guest": "Somini Sengupta", "title": "2018 Revealed Just How Ill-Prepared We Are For Climate Change", "question_index": 3, "text": "And that means carbon emissions, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Scientists disagree about a lot of things, but they agree on this. There is no question that the world as a whole - the planet is warming. It's warming very fast, and that is due to humans changing th"}
{"id": "638881705", "date": "2018-08-15", "guest": "Somini Sengupta", "title": "2018 Revealed Just How Ill-Prepared We Are For Climate Change", "question_index": 4, "text": "People like to say this is the new normal, but scientists are saying to you, no, this is not the new normal. What do they mean by that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. It means greenhouse gas emissions into the atmosphere. And since the start of the industrial age, we have seen the effect on the atmosphere. The planet is warming."}
{"id": "638881705", "date": "2018-08-15", "guest": "Somini Sengupta", "title": "2018 Revealed Just How Ill-Prepared We Are For Climate Change", "question_index": 5, "text": "So in other words, this isn't the new normal because things are going to get worse", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's one of the things that really stuck with me. What they mean is that this trend line that we're talking about - the trend line is going up. It's going up very fast, and we are hurtling towards t"}
{"id": "638881705", "date": "2018-08-15", "guest": "Somini Sengupta", "title": "2018 Revealed Just How Ill-Prepared We Are For Climate Change", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's one of the things that really stuck with me. What they mean is that this trend line that we're talking about - the trend line is going up. It's going up very fast, and we are hurtling towards t"}
{"id": "638881705", "date": "2018-08-15", "guest": "Somini Sengupta", "title": "2018 Revealed Just How Ill-Prepared We Are For Climate Change", "question_index": 7, "text": "You know, so you write about how climate change can actually create a lot of crises, and one of those crises can be, you know, war. When you are covering conflicts around the world, did you see any examples of a conflict whose underlying cause or at least one of the underlying causes was climate change?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is not - this is not the new normal because the trend line is still going up. We have not reached a plateau. And perhaps most importantly, greenhouse gas emissions - greenhouse gas emissions into"}
{"id": "638881705", "date": "2018-08-15", "guest": "Somini Sengupta", "title": "2018 Revealed Just How Ill-Prepared We Are For Climate Change", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, tell us more about how climate change affected the civil war in Syria. So a lot of people were forced out of farmland because of drought, moved to cities where there weren't jobs for the young people. Take it from there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Climate change is never the only thing that leads to insurgency or a conflict. However, in places as different as Darfur in Sudan or Somalia in the Horn of Africa or even Syria, climate ch"}
{"id": "638881705", "date": "2018-08-15", "guest": "Somini Sengupta", "title": "2018 Revealed Just How Ill-Prepared We Are For Climate Change", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Somini Sengupta, The New York Times international climate reporter. We'll talk more after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. I mean, Syria does have lots and lots of young people in their 20s and 30s. It's one of the youngest countries in the world. Unemployment kind of boiled up. There was a whole lot of grie"}
{"id": "638881705", "date": "2018-08-15", "guest": "Somini Sengupta", "title": "2018 Revealed Just How Ill-Prepared We Are For Climate Change", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Somini Sengupta, The New York Times international climate reporter. She covers communities and landscapes most vulnerable to the effects of climate change. She's also worked as the Times' New Delhi bureau chief, and she's covered conflicts around the world. She was born in India, where she lived until she was 7. The city of your birth, Kolkata, which used to be called Calcutta, is becoming a climate casualty, you say. You went there this summer. What kind of heat was the city experiencing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. I mean, Syria does have lots and lots of young people in their 20s and 30s. It's one of the youngest countries in the world. Unemployment kind of boiled up. There was a whole lot of grie"}
{"id": "638881705", "date": "2018-08-15", "guest": "Somini Sengupta", "title": "2018 Revealed Just How Ill-Prepared We Are For Climate Change", "question_index": 11, "text": "What do you mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like many cities around the world, Calcutta (ph) sits at the mouth of a river in - very close to the delta. So the Ganges flows down from northern India, and where it meets the Bay of Bengal - in that"}
{"id": "638881705", "date": "2018-08-15", "guest": "Somini Sengupta", "title": "2018 Revealed Just How Ill-Prepared We Are For Climate Change", "question_index": 12, "text": "The water from big storms?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's got these narrow streets. The drains have been improved, but not improved enough to let the water flow."}
{"id": "638881705", "date": "2018-08-15", "guest": "Somini Sengupta", "title": "2018 Revealed Just How Ill-Prepared We Are For Climate Change", "question_index": 13, "text": "Why are the poor most vulnerable?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The water from big storms, yes, from - you know, when the river floods and just when there's a cloudburst, there's just a lot of rain in the streets, and it pools up. The streets flood. It normally fl"}
{"id": "638881705", "date": "2018-08-15", "guest": "Somini Sengupta", "title": "2018 Revealed Just How Ill-Prepared We Are For Climate Change", "question_index": 14, "text": "There was one day when it was 111 degrees by lunchtime in Kolkata. Were you there that day?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They might live on the streets. They might live, like, literally on the streets. There are many, many other people who live in quite vulnerable houses, houses that are made of bamboo sticks and tarpau"}
{"id": "638881705", "date": "2018-08-15", "guest": "Somini Sengupta", "title": "2018 Revealed Just How Ill-Prepared We Are For Climate Change", "question_index": 15, "text": "So you tell the story of a man in Pakistan who went to the emergency room because of a heat-related health problem he was having, and that had a kind of cascading effect. Would you describe what he faced?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is always very hot in June. And, you know, heat is what many people who study this in India say is a hidden problem because, you know, these are hot places, right? It's not breaking news that it's "}
{"id": "638881705", "date": "2018-08-15", "guest": "Somini Sengupta", "title": "2018 Revealed Just How Ill-Prepared We Are For Climate Change", "question_index": 16, "text": "Because of overuse because of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, so this was in a little town called Nawabshah, which is in a very, very hot part of Pakistan. It's like the hot cotton belt of Pakistan. And they were having a record hot day. And it was an elde"}
{"id": "638881705", "date": "2018-08-15", "guest": "Somini Sengupta", "title": "2018 Revealed Just How Ill-Prepared We Are For Climate Change", "question_index": 17, "text": "So in cities that are already in hot climates, but now it's become much hotter in the summers than it used to be, what are cities trying to do to adapt to the heat?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because of overuse. Yeah, because of overuse. And the health professionals at the hospital were having a very hard time, you know, just meeting the demand. There were a lot of elderly people, a lot of"}
{"id": "638881705", "date": "2018-08-15", "guest": "Somini Sengupta", "title": "2018 Revealed Just How Ill-Prepared We Are For Climate Change", "question_index": 18, "text": "So you said that, oh, you know, heat waves - extreme heat waves during this era of climate change can make people poor. How does it lead to poverty?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I found a lot of examples of cities trying to do things like planting more trees because not only does it give you more shade, but also, it keeps the night temperatures down. It helps to keep the nigh"}
{"id": "638881705", "date": "2018-08-15", "guest": "Somini Sengupta", "title": "2018 Revealed Just How Ill-Prepared We Are For Climate Change", "question_index": 19, "text": "My guest is Somini Sengupta, the New York Times international climate reporter. We'll talk more after a break. Also, Justin Chang will review the new film \"Crazy Rich Asians.\" And Ken Tucker will review the debut album by SOPHIE, who's produced music for Madonna and Lady Gaga. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was a World Bank study that came out not long ago that estimated - and this was kind of a mind-boggling number. It estimated that across South Asia, 800 million people would see their living con"}
{"id": "638881705", "date": "2018-08-15", "guest": "Somini Sengupta", "title": "2018 Revealed Just How Ill-Prepared We Are For Climate Change", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Somini Sengupta, the New York Times international climate reporter covering communities and landscapes most vulnerable to the effects of climate change. That includes places in Africa, South Asia and Europe. You write about the cascading effects of climate change, the cascading effects it can have in a city. Can you think of an example of that where climate change has led to several system failures at the same time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was a World Bank study that came out not long ago that estimated - and this was kind of a mind-boggling number. It estimated that across South Asia, 800 million people would see their living con"}
{"id": "638881705", "date": "2018-08-15", "guest": "Somini Sengupta", "title": "2018 Revealed Just How Ill-Prepared We Are For Climate Change", "question_index": 21, "text": "So the U.S. pulled out of the Paris climate agreement..", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We certainly have seen just this summer systems failures of different kinds. So we've seen power grids being so overloaded by air conditioners going on that the power system has gone out, from places "}
{"id": "638881705", "date": "2018-08-15", "guest": "Somini Sengupta", "title": "2018 Revealed Just How Ill-Prepared We Are For Climate Change", "question_index": 22, "text": "What impact is that having on the agreement and on global warming?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The U.S. is the only country that is not part of the Paris Agreement today."}
{"id": "638881705", "date": "2018-08-15", "guest": "Somini Sengupta", "title": "2018 Revealed Just How Ill-Prepared We Are For Climate Change", "question_index": 23, "text": "So you've described a picture where the United States has pulled out of the agreement and therefore doesn't feel it needs to comply with it. At the same time, the countries that are committed to complying with it aren't.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So without the U.S., can every other country in the world carry on doing what they promised under the Paris Agreement? Absolutely. Is the U.S., in some ways, still bringing down emissions? Yes,"}
{"id": "638881705", "date": "2018-08-15", "guest": "Somini Sengupta", "title": "2018 Revealed Just How Ill-Prepared We Are For Climate Change", "question_index": 24, "text": "So China is committed to reducing carbon emissions. It's cut down on coal. But at the same time, it may be providing Kenya's first coal plant. That seems like a contradiction - cutting down on coal in China, but then China exporting coal plants to other countries or exporting the technology for it. So what's China up to on that front?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. They are certainly not doing enough to meet the goals that they set for themselves. And even as the U.S. has pulled out - has said it would pull out of the Paris Agreement, pretty much every coun"}
{"id": "638881705", "date": "2018-08-15", "guest": "Somini Sengupta", "title": "2018 Revealed Just How Ill-Prepared We Are For Climate Change", "question_index": 25, "text": "We've talked a little bit about how climate change, which can cause droughts, floods, famine, has been driving people from their homes. And many of those people, like, cross over into another country or try to, but they don't qualify officially as refugees. Why not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "China has said and is showing that it is rolling back coal to some extent. Critics say it's not doing it fast enough. But China has a really big coal sector. And what you're seeing, not least on what "}
{"id": "638881705", "date": "2018-08-15", "guest": "Somini Sengupta", "title": "2018 Revealed Just How Ill-Prepared We Are For Climate Change", "question_index": 26, "text": "Is there a movement to change the definition of refugee, which, as you've pointed out, that definition was written after World War II, when climate change wasn't an issue yet. So now that it is an issue and is contributing to the factors that cause people to abandon their countries and take risks to go someplace else, is there any kind of movement to add climate change to the reasons why somebody can be defined as a refugee?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. The definition of a refugee was made at the end of the Second World War. And under the U.N. Refugee Convention, a refugee is someone who is fleeing war or persecution, and it is incumbent on eve"}
{"id": "638881705", "date": "2018-08-15", "guest": "Somini Sengupta", "title": "2018 Revealed Just How Ill-Prepared We Are For Climate Change", "question_index": 27, "text": "Well, Somini Sengupta, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's a great debate going on about that now. And, you know, many people point out that even those who are considered refugees, their rights are being flouted right now. So people fleeing war zones "}
{"id": "638881705", "date": "2018-08-15", "guest": "Somini Sengupta", "title": "2018 Revealed Just How Ill-Prepared We Are For Climate Change", "question_index": 28, "text": "Somini Sengupta is the international climate reporter for The New York Times. After a break, Justin Chang will review the new movie \"Crazy Rich Asians.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much for having me."}
{"id": "641550319", "date": "2018-08-24", "guest": "Brady Jandreau", "title": "A Devastating Fall Couldn't Keep This Rodeo 'Rider' Off Wild Horses", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, I have two guests. Brady Jandreau plays a fictionalized version of himself in the new film \"The Rider.\" He was a rodeo rider and horse trainer who two years ago was in a rodeo riding accident that resulted in a brain injury and a plate having to be placed in his smashed skull. It meant having to rethink his life, which was based around riding and training horses, which is exactly what his doctors told him he should no longer do, at least not for a while. My other guest is Chloe Zhao, who directed the film and conceived of the film. It's the second film she made on the Pine Ridge Lakota Sioux Reservation in South Dakota. Now, I mean, your doctors told you you couldn't ride again and that you certainly couldn't do rodeo again. I know someone with a relatively minor concussion who had trouble riding the train afterwards 'cause it was such a dizzying experience because of the concussion. Real concussions are so much worse than they're always made to seem in movies, like where the detective gets whacked on the head with a pistol, he's knocked unconscious, he wakes up with a headache and that's the last we hear about the concussion, you know? It's not that way in real life. But it sounds like you started riding, like, long before your doctor said that you should do it. What did the doctors tell you? How soon did you start riding, and did you do it sooner than they said you should like I think you did?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "641550319", "date": "2018-08-24", "guest": "Brady Jandreau", "title": "A Devastating Fall Couldn't Keep This Rodeo 'Rider' Off Wild Horses", "question_index": 1, "text": "But the thing is, like, you're supposed to - after a head injury like that, you're supposed to, I think, prevent your brain from getting jostled. But the point is you've been ignoring", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So I had a lot of trust in him, you know. I knew I was pretty well safe. And a month and a half after the injury, I actually went flat broke. And unlike in the movie where I work at a grocery store,"}
{"id": "641550319", "date": "2018-08-24", "guest": "Brady Jandreau", "title": "A Devastating Fall Couldn't Keep This Rodeo 'Rider' Off Wild Horses", "question_index": 2, "text": "what the doctors say. And it's not advice I'd give other people, but I'm really glad that you're OK. Was giving up rodeo hard? 'Cause that you never went back to. Like, that was too risky even for you to", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So I had a lot of trust in him, you know. I knew I was pretty well safe. And a month and a half after the injury, I actually went flat broke. And unlike in the movie where I work at a grocery store,"}
{"id": "641550319", "date": "2018-08-24", "guest": "Brady Jandreau", "title": "A Devastating Fall Couldn't Keep This Rodeo 'Rider' Off Wild Horses", "question_index": 3, "text": "think of doing again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So I had a lot of trust in him, you know. I knew I was pretty well safe. And a month and a half after the injury, I actually went flat broke. And unlike in the movie where I work at a grocery store,"}
{"id": "641550319", "date": "2018-08-24", "guest": "Brady Jandreau", "title": "A Devastating Fall Couldn't Keep This Rodeo 'Rider' Off Wild Horses", "question_index": 4, "text": "Oh, is more dangerous?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, to be completely frank with you, Ma'am, I'd say training horses..."}
{"id": "641550319", "date": "2018-08-24", "guest": "Brady Jandreau", "title": "A Devastating Fall Couldn't Keep This Rodeo 'Rider' Off Wild Horses", "question_index": 5, "text": "OK. You haven't reassured me, but that was a very interesting answer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Is more dangerous because it's so unpredictable. The only thing that you can predict their actions through is your connection with the animal. And like I say, I mean, even if the horse stumbled and"}
{"id": "641550319", "date": "2018-08-24", "guest": "Brady Jandreau", "title": "A Devastating Fall Couldn't Keep This Rodeo 'Rider' Off Wild Horses", "question_index": 6, "text": "The scenes in the movie where you're training horses are so just beautiful to watch. And like, are we seeing you train horses for real in those scenes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, so that's what I'm saying. I think that training horses is probably more dangerous."}
{"id": "641550319", "date": "2018-08-24", "guest": "Brady Jandreau", "title": "A Devastating Fall Couldn't Keep This Rodeo 'Rider' Off Wild Horses", "question_index": 7, "text": "Wow. It's just beautiful. And, you know, one of the things interesting to me is that the first thing you do in those scenes when you're training a new horse is put out your hand for the horse to sniff. And that's something that a lot of us do when we're meeting a new cat or a new dog. And it's interesting that that's the first thing you would do with a horse.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "641550319", "date": "2018-08-24", "guest": "Brady Jandreau", "title": "A Devastating Fall Couldn't Keep This Rodeo 'Rider' Off Wild Horses", "question_index": 8, "text": "And then, other things that you do, you get closer to them. You kind of pet them. And, slowly, you put a little bit of your weight on the horse without fully mounting it. Can you talk a little bit - can you describe for us, for those of us who have never seen a horse broken, just a few of the steps that you take to do it and what it's like for you to be experiencing this growing relationship between you and the horse?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A horse, you know, they can't say, hi, how are you? I'm so-and-so, you know? So they communicate through typically smelling or, you know, just body language. And when a horse approaches another horse,"}
{"id": "641550319", "date": "2018-08-24", "guest": "Brady Jandreau", "title": "A Devastating Fall Couldn't Keep This Rodeo 'Rider' Off Wild Horses", "question_index": 9, "text": "You know, we use the expression to break a horse. That sounds kind of violent, like you're - you know. So that's not what you're - you're kind of taming a horse...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli in for Terry Gross back with more of Terry's interview from earlier this year with Brady Jandreau, star of the film \"The Rider,\" and Chloe Zhao, who wrote and di"}
{"id": "641550319", "date": "2018-08-24", "guest": "Brady Jandreau", "title": "A Devastating Fall Couldn't Keep This Rodeo 'Rider' Off Wild Horses", "question_index": 10, "text": "...Or creating relationship with a horse. But what does that - do you like using that word? And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. Yeah..."}
{"id": "641550319", "date": "2018-08-24", "guest": "Brady Jandreau", "title": "A Devastating Fall Couldn't Keep This Rodeo 'Rider' Off Wild Horses", "question_index": 11, "text": "Right, break their will. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I don't. You know, I mean, honestly, like, I grew up and that's what people, you know, around horses they usually say. They call it breaking them. And there are many, many trainers who still break"}
{"id": "641550319", "date": "2018-08-24", "guest": "Brady Jandreau", "title": "A Devastating Fall Couldn't Keep This Rodeo 'Rider' Off Wild Horses", "question_index": 12, "text": "Do you think there's something in it for the horse when the horse develops a relationship with a human and learns to accept that the human's going to ride them and also feed them and care for them? Like, I know what's in it for the people. What's in it for the horse?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, by tying them certain ways or working them so hard to where they're so tired they cannot - you know, they can't resist. What I choose to do is just - like I'm hanging out with them, and it's jus"}
{"id": "641550319", "date": "2018-08-24", "guest": "Brady Jandreau", "title": "A Devastating Fall Couldn't Keep This Rodeo 'Rider' Off Wild Horses", "question_index": 13, "text": "Oh, you're kidding. This is one of the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, when a horse connects with you, there is something in it for them because, like, for their health and I believe also in a relationship with a person. Like, many horses we save off of k"}
{"id": "641550319", "date": "2018-08-24", "guest": "Brady Jandreau", "title": "A Devastating Fall Couldn't Keep This Rodeo 'Rider' Off Wild Horses", "question_index": 14, "text": "...Horses you tame in the movie, a beautiful horse.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "641550319", "date": "2018-08-24", "guest": "Brady Jandreau", "title": "A Devastating Fall Couldn't Keep This Rodeo 'Rider' Off Wild Horses", "question_index": 15, "text": "Thank you", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Even though he was - he was big, yellow. And even though he was wild, I felt as though he had a lot to offer. He had a very, very - like, when I look into a horse's eyes, they say more to me tha"}
{"id": "641550319", "date": "2018-08-24", "guest": "Brady Jandreau", "title": "A Devastating Fall Couldn't Keep This Rodeo 'Rider' Off Wild Horses", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Even though he was - he was big, yellow. And even though he was wild, I felt as though he had a lot to offer. He had a very, very - like, when I look into a horse's eyes, they say more to me tha"}
{"id": "641550319", "date": "2018-08-24", "guest": "Brady Jandreau", "title": "A Devastating Fall Couldn't Keep This Rodeo 'Rider' Off Wild Horses", "question_index": 17, "text": "No offense taken.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. No offense to you, but that's..."}
{"id": "641550319", "date": "2018-08-24", "guest": "Brady Jandreau", "title": "A Devastating Fall Couldn't Keep This Rodeo 'Rider' Off Wild Horses", "question_index": 18, "text": "That's OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "641550319", "date": "2018-08-24", "guest": "Brady Jandreau", "title": "A Devastating Fall Couldn't Keep This Rodeo 'Rider' Off Wild Horses", "question_index": 19, "text": "What happened to him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, yeah, and Apollo, he would have had to go to a kill truck, but I knew there was good in him. And so I broke him. He was difficult to break. And for the first, you know, about two months we owned h"}
{"id": "641550319", "date": "2018-08-24", "guest": "Brady Jandreau", "title": "A Devastating Fall Couldn't Keep This Rodeo 'Rider' Off Wild Horses", "question_index": 20, "text": "In the barbed wire.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like say he were to get - he got into the wire, just like in the movie."}
{"id": "641550319", "date": "2018-08-24", "guest": "Brady Jandreau", "title": "A Devastating Fall Couldn't Keep This Rodeo 'Rider' Off Wild Horses", "question_index": 21, "text": "Wow. Did you have to put him down?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that was not a - that was a recreation. That was a fictional - that was make up on the horse in the movie. But Apollo's injury was much, much worse than the horse in the movie. It was much highe"}
{"id": "641550319", "date": "2018-08-24", "guest": "Brady Jandreau", "title": "A Devastating Fall Couldn't Keep This Rodeo 'Rider' Off Wild Horses", "question_index": 22, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, my dad did it, like in the movie."}
{"id": "641550319", "date": "2018-08-24", "guest": "Brady Jandreau", "title": "A Devastating Fall Couldn't Keep This Rodeo 'Rider' Off Wild Horses", "question_index": 23, "text": "That must be so hard. I mean, like, with a cat or a dog, at least, you know, where I live, you take the animal to the vet, and the vet puts the animal down. But with horses, it's often, you know, like, the human who shoots the horse. It's an instantaneous death, I guess.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But, yeah, I loved Apollo. I really hope to get to see him again up in the sky someday."}
{"id": "641550319", "date": "2018-08-24", "guest": "Brady Jandreau", "title": "A Devastating Fall Couldn't Keep This Rodeo 'Rider' Off Wild Horses", "question_index": 24, "text": "But that must be so difficult to be part of.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when you..."}
{"id": "641550319", "date": "2018-08-24", "guest": "Brady Jandreau", "title": "A Devastating Fall Couldn't Keep This Rodeo 'Rider' Off Wild Horses", "question_index": 25, "text": "See, I didn't know all this, so I wasn't able to think that through. And it seems much more humane to just put him down yourself and spare the horse all of that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If you've ever seen, like, a cow or a horse die of natural causes, it's probably the most sickening thing you could ever imagine. Die on their own from natural causes - literally, when a horse become "}
{"id": "641550319", "date": "2018-08-24", "guest": "Brady Jandreau", "title": "A Devastating Fall Couldn't Keep This Rodeo 'Rider' Off Wild Horses", "question_index": 26, "text": "Yeah, yeah. So Chloe, what you do in your films - at least, in the first two films that you've made - is cast people to play slightly fictionalized versions of themselves. It's not just Brady who plays a fictionalized version of himself. His father is in the film playing his father. His sister is in the film playing his sister. His friends are in the film playing his friends. Let's start with his family. Did you have to work hard to convince them to be a part of the film? And I'll mention that his father isn't always painted in the most flattering light in this. His father has gambled away the rent money, so, like, the family is totally broke in the movie. I don't know if it happened that way in real life, but, you know, people will confuse real life with the fictionalized version. So how is his father with playing this role?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was only one thing to do."}
{"id": "641550319", "date": "2018-08-24", "guest": "Brady Jandreau", "title": "A Devastating Fall Couldn't Keep This Rodeo 'Rider' Off Wild Horses", "question_index": 27, "text": "Chloe, how did you first get the idea of combining real people and real people's lives in a fictionalized version?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "641550319", "date": "2018-08-24", "guest": "Brady Jandreau", "title": "A Devastating Fall Couldn't Keep This Rodeo 'Rider' Off Wild Horses", "question_index": 28, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you both. If you're just joining us, my guests are Brady Jandreau, who plays a slightly fictionalized version of himself in the new film \"The Rider,\" and Chloe Zhao, the film's director who also conceived the movie. We'll talk more after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You either work with limitation or you let it work you, you know? We, as a women - Chinese women filmmaker with not much connections and to come to America and say, like, I want to make films on a res"}
{"id": "641550319", "date": "2018-08-24", "guest": "Brady Jandreau", "title": "A Devastating Fall Couldn't Keep This Rodeo 'Rider' Off Wild Horses", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, I have two guests. Brady Jandreau plays a fictionalized version of himself in the new film \"The Rider.\" He was a rodeo rider and horse trainer who, two years ago, was in a rodeo riding accident that resulted in a skull and brain injury. It was so severe that he now has a plate in his head. It meant having to rethink his life, which was based around riding and training horses, which is exactly what his doctors told him he should no longer do. But he still trains horses. But he no longer rides on the radio - in the rodeo. So Brady, what is your life like now? I know you're still working with horses. Like, what exactly are you doing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You either work with limitation or you let it work you, you know? We, as a women - Chinese women filmmaker with not much connections and to come to America and say, like, I want to make films on a res"}
{"id": "641550319", "date": "2018-08-24", "guest": "Brady Jandreau", "title": "A Devastating Fall Couldn't Keep This Rodeo 'Rider' Off Wild Horses", "question_index": 30, "text": "And where do get your horses from now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, since the shoot, I've started a breeding program called the Jandreau Performance Horses. We raise American quarter horses, all registered through the AQHA. And we train them to do everything"}
{"id": "641550319", "date": "2018-08-24", "guest": "Brady Jandreau", "title": "A Devastating Fall Couldn't Keep This Rodeo 'Rider' Off Wild Horses", "question_index": 31, "text": "Oh, so it's a breeding - right, it's a breeding program.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I raise them. You know, I also take in horses..."}
{"id": "641550319", "date": "2018-08-24", "guest": "Brady Jandreau", "title": "A Devastating Fall Couldn't Keep This Rodeo 'Rider' Off Wild Horses", "question_index": 32, "text": "How many horses do you have now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep. And I also take in horses from the public to be trained for a set number of days for a specific amount of pay."}
{"id": "641550319", "date": "2018-08-24", "guest": "Brady Jandreau", "title": "A Devastating Fall Couldn't Keep This Rodeo 'Rider' Off Wild Horses", "question_index": 33, "text": "So, you know, to sum up, like, your life was profoundly changed by your head injury from the rodeo. And it looked like maybe you'd have to change your identity altogether, that you'd have to give up riding, that you'd have to give up rodeo. And you've taken, like, a curve, but - you know, 'cause you're no longer doing rodeo. But you're still riding. You're raising horses. Horses are still central to your life. And I guess you must be so grateful for that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We have around 20 registered broodmares, so that means about 20 babies born each year. You cannot break a horse until they're about 2 years old. You can halter break them, meaning teach them how to le"}
{"id": "641550319", "date": "2018-08-24", "guest": "Brady Jandreau", "title": "A Devastating Fall Couldn't Keep This Rodeo 'Rider' Off Wild Horses", "question_index": 34, "text": "Did you ever think you'd really have to give it up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, it makes you feel close to God - you know? - just to be in their presence."}
{"id": "641550319", "date": "2018-08-24", "guest": "Brady Jandreau", "title": "A Devastating Fall Couldn't Keep This Rodeo 'Rider' Off Wild Horses", "question_index": 35, "text": "Brady, what was your first horse - the first time you had, like, a close relationship with a horse?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, there was a point when I definitely had to think about whether or not I was going to. You know, there was a lot of thoughts that went through my head after my injury - you know, I mean, a lo"}
{"id": "641550319", "date": "2018-08-24", "guest": "Brady Jandreau", "title": "A Devastating Fall Couldn't Keep This Rodeo 'Rider' Off Wild Horses", "question_index": 36, "text": "How old is she?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The very first time that I ever could control a horse on my own - like, my daughter, she's already ridden 22 horses - you know, us holding her up there, you know?"}
{"id": "641550319", "date": "2018-08-24", "guest": "Brady Jandreau", "title": "A Devastating Fall Couldn't Keep This Rodeo 'Rider' Off Wild Horses", "question_index": 37, "text": "Oh, God", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She's only 9 months old."}
{"id": "641550319", "date": "2018-08-24", "guest": "Brady Jandreau", "title": "A Devastating Fall Couldn't Keep This Rodeo 'Rider' Off Wild Horses", "question_index": 38, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She's only 9 months old."}
{"id": "641550319", "date": "2018-08-24", "guest": "Brady Jandreau", "title": "A Devastating Fall Couldn't Keep This Rodeo 'Rider' Off Wild Horses", "question_index": 39, "text": "Wow, you were riding bareback at a year and a half.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She will be 9 months old in two weeks, and she's ridden 22 different horses, ridden about 45 times. And, you know, I grew up the same way. But I could actually control a horse - he was a very well-tra"}
{"id": "641550319", "date": "2018-08-24", "guest": "Brady Jandreau", "title": "A Devastating Fall Couldn't Keep This Rodeo 'Rider' Off Wild Horses", "question_index": 40, "text": "And here's a question for you, Chloe. You capture, like, the beauty of the landscape in South Dakota. And the outdoors is so - just, it's so open, but the indoors are so cramped. You know, like, the family lives in basically, like, a trailer. Were you looking for that contrast between the indoors and the outdoors?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To keep me on his back."}
{"id": "641550319", "date": "2018-08-24", "guest": "Brady Jandreau", "title": "A Devastating Fall Couldn't Keep This Rodeo 'Rider' Off Wild Horses", "question_index": 41, "text": "Chloe, did Brady teach you how to ride?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I am. And if you go to the reservation, I think you will find a lot of that. And again, you know, it's that thing that happened historically when you discontinue people's culture and their conne"}
{"id": "641550319", "date": "2018-08-24", "guest": "Brady Jandreau", "title": "A Devastating Fall Couldn't Keep This Rodeo 'Rider' Off Wild Horses", "question_index": 42, "text": "I want to thank you both so much, and I want to congratulate you on the wonderful film. Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because you feel it, you know, between your legs. It's so powerful. And gosh, and it just - again, you feel so close to nature through these animals. And if I have kids - and when I have kids, I reall"}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today we join people throughout America on both sides of the political aisle in remembering Senator John McCain. His memorial service will be held at the National Cathedral next Saturday, one week after his death from brain cancer at the age of 81. We're going to listen to an interview I recorded with him in 2000 after his best-selling memoir \"Faith Of Our Fathers\" (ph) was published in paperback. But we'll start with the interview I recorded with him in 2005 after the publication of his book \"Character Is Destiny.\" This was five years after he'd lost the Republican presidential primary to George W. Bush. When we spoke, he was considering running for president in 2008. He did run, but lost to Barack Obama. McCain requested that those two former opponents speak at his funeral. We talked about many things in these interviews, including his 5 1/2 years as a prisoner of war in Vietnam and his years as a Republican senator from Arizona. This 2005 interview begins with a story that involves his mother, who has survived him and is now 106.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 1, "text": "Senator McCain, welcome to FRESH AIR. In your book \"Character Is Destiny,\" you talk a little bit about your own life. And you tell a great story about your mother's objections to the language you once used...", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 2, "text": "...To describe your experiences as a prisoner of war. Would you tell us that story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 3, "text": "So what's the moral of that story in your mind?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 4, "text": "Yeah. But obviously, she was wrong because there is a place for obscenity. And that would be the place for it - is when you're...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The moral of story is you should always pay attention to your mother. And certainly, never write something that she might read that you might not want her to."}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 5, "text": "...People are carrying you away to torture you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think so."}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 6, "text": "That would be the place for obscenity.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", as she said, under any circumstances. But she's a wonderful woman. She drives herself everywhere. She drove herself cross-country last Christmas, and I had to alert the local law enforcement agencie"}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, your book is called \"Character Is Destiny.\" And of course one of the things that formed your character was being a prisoner of war for 5 1/2 years in Vietnam. And you have introduced an amendment to the defense appropriation bill. This would prohibit cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment in the U.S. interrogations that happen outside of the U.S. Would you explain what you see is the need for this bill?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But she's in great shape. And she pays very close attention to my activities, watches my appearances on television and radio. And in Washington, quite often, I take her to various functions that I go "}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 9, "text": "Now, you've said that when you were tortured in North Vietnam, that - you named names. You named the names of ball players.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first, I got to mention about my character being formed by being in prison. I don't think my character was formed in prison. I think it was formed before that. But what I think it made me realiz"}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 10, "text": "So did that stop the torture? I mean, you gave them names that were totally inappropriate...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, the starting lineup of the Green Bay Packers, yup."}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 11, "text": "...Names for what they were looking for. But did that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mainly, what..."}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 12, "text": "So you don't trust the information that is extracted under torture. You didn't give...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For a while. For a while, yeah. But mainly, what they wanted is what you can get out of torture. Mainly, what they wanted was to get war crimes, confessions, statements criticizing your country, those"}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 13, "text": "...Accurate information, and you don't trust...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't trust it."}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 14, "text": "...Others would.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I don't."}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 15, "text": "One of the practices that is being examined here is waterboarding in which the interrogator basically pours water into the nose and mouth of the person being interrogated, and that person thinks that they are drowning. Although they will be...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I don't."}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 16, "text": "...Rescued from drowning by the interrogator, the person being interrogated doesn't know that. You've said that anything that makes it seem like you are on the verge of getting executed is torture. Do you know that from experience? Were you in that position?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 17, "text": "I just heard a hum in the background. Is that a plane going by?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I was never - that never happened to me. But I know of enough cases where people have believed that they were going to be killed or executed. That is - has tremendous - any person who is well-vers"}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 18, "text": "Oh, OK. Great. I'll just wait until it goes", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes."}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes."}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 20, "text": "It's going real slowly, isn't it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It may be a helicopter coming - a black helicopter coming to assassinate me because..."}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That way we can keep - as a dedicated watcher of \"24,\" you never know what can happen..."}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is a dark plot, indeed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Because, see, they could kill two birds with one stone by wiping out a public - National Public Radio as well as a political enemy, you see? So they - it'll be hard to resist this target."}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 24, "text": "I think we are nearly safe now. That plane sounds in the distance", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Because, see, they could kill two birds with one stone by wiping out a public - National Public Radio as well as a political enemy, you see? So they - it'll be hard to resist this target."}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 25, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Because, see, they could kill two birds with one stone by wiping out a public - National Public Radio as well as a political enemy, you see? So they - it'll be hard to resist this target."}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 26, "text": "Now, since we've been talking a little bit about, you know, your experience as a prisoner of war in Vietnam and how that applies to your thoughts about torture, there's another Vietnam question I'd like to ask you. The National Security Agency recently released hundreds of pages of formerly secret documents on the 1964 Gulf of Tonkin incident. And this was the incident in which we were told that the North Vietnamese fired on our boats in the Gulf of Tonkin. And as a result of this, President Johnson authorized airstrikes, and Congress passed a resolution authorizing military action based on the Gulf of Tonkin. Now, these new documents that were released show that we weren't - our boats really weren't fired on. The Gulf of Tonkin incident never really happened, but information was distorted to make it seem as if it did. As a veteran, what's your reaction to this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right. Whew. Thank God."}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 27, "text": "So you think that whether the Gulf of Tonkin happened or not, Congress should have revisited the issue, and that's the larger problem.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we've known for a long time that there were questions about the Gulf of Tonkin \"incident,\" unquote. And the more important aspect of this, Terry, is that the firing - suppose that it did happen."}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 28, "text": "Revisited it and pulled our troops out? Revisited it and ended the war?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely, particularly when we went from an escalation, a dramatic escalation - remember; when the Gulf of Tonkin incident took place, there was a relatively small number of American troops on t"}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 29, "text": "Senator McCain, you supported the invasion of Iraq, and now you support sending in more troops and say to pull out now would likely lead to full-scale civil war. You've criticized Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld for not having enough troops when we invaded Iraq. Do you hold him responsible for any other things that you consider to have been misjudgments in how the war has been executed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "At least made decisions whether to remain there, whether to accept an escalation, whether it was in our national security interests to continue the conflict. They basically took a pass and let the exe"}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 30, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded with Senator John McCain in 2005. We'll hear more of that interview after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A number of misjudgments. When the looting started and they failed to put that down with whatever it took, created an environment of chaos and insecurity for the people of Iraq. When we vastly underes"}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 31, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with Senator John McCain in 2005.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A number of misjudgments. When the looting started and they failed to put that down with whatever it took, created an environment of chaos and insecurity for the people of Iraq. When we vastly underes"}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 32, "text": "Your new book, \"Character Is Destiny,\" is about people who you consider to be inspirational, to be role models, including Mother Teresa. And you have a daughter that you adopted from an orphanage that I think was run by Mother Teresa. Am I right about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A number of misjudgments. When the looting started and they failed to put that down with whatever it took, created an environment of chaos and insecurity for the people of Iraq. When we vastly underes"}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 33, "text": "When you were running for - in the presidential primary in 2000, there was - and I think it's fair to call it - a smear campaign against you which used your daughter. It was like a whisper campaign saying that your daughter was actually a daughter that you had fathered with a black prostitute.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes, it was her group of nuns that ran a orphanage in Dhaka, Bangladesh. Yes, that's where my wife was visiting with a medical team. And Bridget was there. And she had a very severe cleft palate."}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 34, "text": "How did this whisper campaign work? Like, how do these kinds...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm hmm. That's a - yes."}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 35, "text": "...Of rumors travel?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't.."}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 36, "text": "And also in these whisper campaigns are that you are mentally unstable because of your POW experiences and that your wife was an addict. How do you fight against things like that when no one is taking credit for saying it? And it's all - my understanding is it's like phone calls that come across on, like, two-way talk radio...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know because I've never engaged in anything like that. We knew that that was out there. And it was very painful for us of course."}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 37, "text": "...And like, little handouts that are anonymously placed on cars in parking lots. And it's hard to trace back to an individual.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm hmm. Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 38, "text": "Well, I wanted to ask you about it because it may be symptomatic of a larger problem in politics today, which is the smear campaign. You know, when you're smeared from somebody in the other party, you maybe expect it a little bit more. But when it's happening from your own party in a primary, is it more surprising, and does it make it more difficult to feel really united with your party when you know people within that party have lied about you in such a really destructive way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's very tough, and it was very difficult. But I would also point out that one of the major reasons why we lost in South Carolina was not because of that as much as it was that the entire Repub"}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 39, "text": "It's not what?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I've found in my experience probably the most bitter campaigns are primaries within the party because, you know, there's not - sometimes not much of a philosophical difference, so they get into "}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 40, "text": "Oh, oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...It gets tough. It's not beanbag."}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 41, "text": "Again, I was asking not because you're...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it's tough. And it's difficult. But I think that what you really need to look at is the - you know, the campaign that you waged. Overall, with some mistakes and some excesses, I'm very proud of th"}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 42, "text": "...Holding a grudge...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 43, "text": "...But because...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 44, "text": "...You know, your campaign isn't the only campaign that this kind of thing has happened in. And I'm wondering if you think that there's something that can be done to stop those kind...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 45, "text": "...Of smears. And I'm wondering, too, if you consider the Swift boat campaign against John Kerry similar in fashion to the smear campaign against you, or if you consider that to be, you know, a different animal altogether.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 46, "text": "Senator John McCain recorded in 2005. After we take a short break, we'll hear the interview I recorded with him in 2000 shortly after he lost the Republican presidential primary to George W. Bush. His family memoir, \"Faith Of My Fathers,\" had just been published in paperback. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it was different in many respects because this was a paid-for ad campaign. What happened to us was all sort of under-the-radar kind of thing. In the campaign you're talking about in Sout"}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 47, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're remembering Senator John McCain. The first time I spoke with him was in 2000 after his family memoir, \"Faith Of My Fathers,\" was published in paperback. McCain's father and grandfather were naval commanders. His father was commander in chief of the Pacific forces during the war in Vietnam. John McCain served as a naval aviator in Vietnam and was a prisoner of war for 5 1/2 years. We spoke just a few weeks after he'd lost the 2000 Republican presidential primary to George W. Bush. He told me that in spite of losing that primary in 2000, the opportunity to run for the Republican nomination was at that point the greatest experience of his life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it was different in many respects because this was a paid-for ad campaign. What happened to us was all sort of under-the-radar kind of thing. In the campaign you're talking about in Sout"}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 48, "text": "Perhaps the most controversial statements you made during the primary had to do with Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell when you called them evil and agents of intolerance. You said, we are the party of Ronald Reagan, not Pat Robertson. Didn't Robertson and Falwell become big political powers because of their affiliation with Ronald Reagan?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a rare and wonderful experience and one that I'll always treasure and not look back either in - with anger or remorse because of the fact that I was a loser. I was able - we were able to motivate"}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 49, "text": "In this election, the issue of abortion isn't being discussed nearly as much as it has been in recent previous presidential campaigns. You've described yourself as pro-life. In your political agenda, how would you rate the importance of, say, abortion compared to, say, campaign finance reform? Where do you see abortion fitting in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I believe what I said - we're the party of Abraham Lincoln, Theodore Roosevelt and Ronald Reagan. And what I meant by that was that we're a party of inclusion and not exclusion; we're a party of addit"}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 50, "text": "Yeah. You're arguing that even people who disagree with that should be upstanding members of the party. But I'm wondering...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's an incredibly important issue because it has to do with one's fundamental beliefs. I mean, there's nothing more important than your fundamental belief. And that obviously has to do with m"}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 51, "text": "I'm not sure I've heard you discuss how, in your own mind you weigh a woman's ability to control her reproductive destiny against your belief that, you know, life begins at conception.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 52, "text": "We're listening back to the interview I recorded with Senator John McCain in 2000. We'll hear more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I believe that the process should be that Roe v. Wade be overturned. That would not change very much because it would then return the issue to the states. That's when those like me who believe i"}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 53, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with Senator John McCain in 2000.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I believe that the process should be that Roe v. Wade be overturned. That would not change very much because it would then return the issue to the states. That's when those like me who believe i"}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 54, "text": "You said that you were the only person in your high school that you knew of who was expected to go into the military. Both of your fathers were naval commanders. Your father was the commander in chief in the Pacific during part of the Vietnam War. Do you think you would have gone into the military if you weren't expected to, if it wasn't part of the family tradition?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I believe that the process should be that Roe v. Wade be overturned. That would not change very much because it would then return the issue to the states. That's when those like me who believe i"}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 55, "text": "You really disliked how Washington conducted the war in Vietnam. You felt that they didn't fight hard enough, that the war could have been won and could have been won in a timely fashion. And you say that most of the people you knew - well, maybe - am I going too far there? You...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I don't know, Terry, because one of the aspects of my life which, being a child of the '50s, that I was expected - it was just sort of a natural evolutionary thing that I was going to be - g"}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 56, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, I think so, Terry."}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 57, "text": "Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let me explain..."}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 58, "text": "And - but to sum up, you are very critical about how Washington conducted the war, how the politicians were managing...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Very quickly. I think that - look; we had a decision to make early on in 1964 perhaps at the latest that we were either going to do whatever is necessary to win or don't go into the conflict at all"}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 59, "text": "...The war.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 60, "text": "Did...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 61, "text": "Did the war shake your faith in politics? You ended up going into politics, but you must have been pretty cynical about it during the war.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I was critical also of some of the military leaders early on who knew that the war - that there's no way we could win with that strategy and should have stood up and said, I quit; I resign."}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 62, "text": "Did you, after returning to the United States, ever have any doubts about the war and whether it should have been fought?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I was cynical about employing a strategy which even junior officers such as I recognized were - was not a viable one. And I grieve and mourn to this day the loss - unnecessary loss of young Americ"}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 63, "text": "If you had done all the reading that you did after you returned home before you went to Vietnam, would you have still wanted to go?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My doubts were significant. I read and studied for literally a year everything I could get my hands on about Vietnam. I wanted to know what it was that caused me to spend several years over there. I w"}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 64, "text": "Questions or doubts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But I - that's a - that question has never been asked of me before, Terry, but I think that I would have had significant questions. But I'm - I believe as a career military officer, I still would ha"}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 65, "text": "You used to be, I guess, more of what you might describe as, like, a good-time guy. You liked to drink, you liked to have a good time, didn't pay that much attention to your studies, as we established. Do you feel like you're still capable of really having a good time? Or has, like, the whole POW experience, which happened, I know, a long time ago - but has that still at all affected your ability to relax or to enjoy yourself or, you know, experience pleasure? Because I know for some people that really does affect the ability to experience pleasure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I would've had concerns. Look; we had doubts on board the ship. I'll never forget one time I had - was assigned a target that came from - directly from the basement of the White House that had b"}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 66, "text": "John McCain, I want to thank you so much for talking with us. Thank you for your time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I enjoy every moment of my life. I enjoy every sunrise and every sunset. I enjoy and love the beauty of the state that I represent. The - my experiences have made me so appreciative of the opportuniti"}
{"id": "642246239", "date": "2018-08-27", "guest": "John Mccain", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Sen. John McCain", "question_index": 67, "text": "Senator John McCain, recorded in 2000. His memorial service will be held Saturday at the National Cathedral one week after his death. We're going to take a short break here. Then our rock critic Ken Tucker will review a new album featuring country music stars performing songs written by Roger Miller. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. And thank you for some very tough and interesting questions."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today we're starting a series featuring interviews with Emmy nominees. They'll find out if they're winners on Monday, September 17. We're starting with John Oliver, whose satirical news show \"Last Week Tonight\" is nominated in nine categories, including Outstanding Variety Talk Series, Outstanding Writing for a Variety Series and Outstanding Interactive Program. Oliver moved to the U.S. from England in 2006 to become a correspondent on \"The Daily Show\" with Jon Stewart. Oliver started his HBO show in 2014. He typically starts the show with a comic, trenchant review of the week's news, and then he takes a deep dive into one news story, a story that you may not have been following, a story you may not have thought was interesting. But through a combination of comedy and journalism, he makes it funny and really informative. Our interview was recorded last March. Here's a clip from the August 19 episode in which the main story was about President Trump waging a trade war. Here's how Oliver started.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 1, "text": "John Oliver, welcome to FRESH AIR, and - glad your show is back", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Trump has talked a big game on trade for decades, and he's spent..."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 2, "text": "on HBO.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Trump has talked a big game on trade for decades, and he's spent..."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 3, "text": "So I always imagine your staff being a combination of journalists and comics. And the way it happens in my head...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 4, "text": "...Because I'm not there and I don't know anything about...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 5, "text": "...What's really going on - but the way it happens in my head is that you have a group of journalists who do this deep dive into a story and then a group of comedy writers who turn that story into a comedic take on - you know, using all the investigative stuff that the journalists have come up with - that then the comics would, you know, transform that into a comic take on this really important story. So tell me...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 6, "text": "Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's a pretty good guess."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 7, "text": "Tell me how it really works", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a pretty good guess, Terry. You've just revealed to our secret sauce live on air."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a pretty good guess, Terry. You've just revealed to our secret sauce live on air."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You've just Colonel Sandersed (ph)..."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 10, "text": "One of the things you don't do is focus every show on President Trump.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Our process. That's basically it. You know, we have researchers. We have footage producers. And they go away to look at a story and to check that it's been reported accurately or whether the story "}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 11, "text": "There's usually an opening in which you, like, review the events of the week. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 12, "text": "Of course the president figures prominently in that. And there's no shortage of jokes in that opening segment about the president and Don Jr. and Jared and Ivanka. But the investigative part is usually not about the White House. How come? Like, you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 13, "text": "...Intentionally stay away from that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I guess..."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "as early as possible, if at all, and then move on to something that no one in their right mind wants to hear about."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 15, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Often when we introduce that main story, there's quickly a sense of, and don't go. I promise."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 16, "text": "Sometimes your segments - your long takeout segments end with, like, a call to action. One of my favorites", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I give you my word this is worth 22 minutes of your time. I promise."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 17, "text": "was about how easy it is to call yourself a church and get tax-exempt status...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I give you my word this is worth 22 minutes of your time. I promise."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 18, "text": "...And then with the tax-exempt status and various other loopholes, collect money from your followers, exploiting their problems and making promises you can't keep and then pocketing the money. So you became a mega-reverend and started a church called Our Lady of Perpetual Exemption.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 19, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exemption, that's correct."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yes", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Praise be, praise be."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 21, "text": ". So with your wife, Wanda Jo Oliver, played by Rachel Dratch, you did a little TV show at the end of your segment on televangelists and did something on your church, Our Lady of Perpetual Exemption. And I want to play that clip.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Praise be, praise be."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 22, "text": "That's really hilarious. John Oliver...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Do not delay. Call this actual number right now - 1-800-THIS-IS-LEGAL - because, amazingly, all of this is. This is all legal. Call this toll-free number, and plant your seed."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 23, "text": "That's John Oliver and Rachel Dratch on an episode from \"Last Week Tonight\" on HBO. So, as you said, it's legal to say great things will come to you", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Rachel Dratch is so funny."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 24, "text": "if you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Rachel Dratch is so funny."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 25, "text": "...If you do this, if you pay the money and everything. So how did you find out what you could say?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 26, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess the fascinating thing for us there was to try and show, not just tell, people that this was possible because it feels - if - you know, it's theoretically alarming to have someone say, and it's"}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 27, "text": "Why did they do that? Why did they - it's obviously", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And people sent it in, no tax obligations. It was kind of showing that you could hack into this system, and everything was allowed. So yeah, people sent thousands and thousands and thousands of dollar"}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 28, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And people sent it in, no tax obligations. It was kind of showing that you could hack into this system, and everything was allowed. So yeah, people sent thousands and thousands and thousands of dollar"}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 29, "text": "It's obviously...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 30, "text": "...A comedy sketch.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...'Cause it's..."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 31, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...'Cause it's fun. Again, you know, we were - we sent them back things, however. Once they sent money, we sent them letters back, the kind of letters that we'd been receiving from the pastor that we'"}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 32, "text": "So what did you have to do to become a church?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "our entire job. But yeah, the point of it was to show that the barrier of entry to this is too low. And when it's this low, you can have bad actors enter. So that was why."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 33, "text": "So what did you do with the money you collected?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We had to just register as a church. I believe we did it in Texas, I believe."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 34, "text": "I remember when I was growing up, and Oral Roberts was on TV. And he'd have, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We gave it to Doctors Without Borders."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 35, "text": "...A tent revival meeting and do all his healing - like, put your hands on the screen, and he'd put his hands toward the camera so it would be as if you could put your hand on his hand. And you do something similar like that in the bit that we just heard. And so, like, he's doing a tent revival, and I'm, like, a Jewish kid growing up in an apartment building in Brooklyn, and the whole thing just looks, like, so different", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 36, "text": "to me...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 37, "text": "...So unlike...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 38, "text": "...Anything in my neighborhood.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was..."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 39, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. It was - watching it, getting glimpses of it in England, it was kind of this curiosity of, wow, look at this. Honestly, it was just, look at this level of enthusiasm. You know, I don't come from"}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 40, "text": "Were you threatened or harassed by anyone within any of those churches or any of the leaders of those churches?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Whereas, like, the quintessentially American enthusiasm of faith was already fascinating. But, again, like, the point wasn't so much that. The point was more the toxicity of seed faith because it prey"}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 41, "text": "We're listening back to our interview with John Oliver, whose HBO show \"Last Week Tonight\" is nominated for nine Emmys, including outstanding variety talk series. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's going to be - have fun now. You will be dancing in the flickering flames of hell."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 42, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with John Oliver last March. His HBO satirical new show \"Last Week Tonight\" is nominated for nine Emmys, including outstanding writing for a variety series.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's going to be - have fun now. You will be dancing in the flickering flames of hell."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 43, "text": "So I want to give another example of you doing something related to the story that you're following - but doing it in the real world, not just in the confines of the studio. And this is this is really hilarious. I mean, you've been trying to slip information into Trump's mind knowing that he watches Fox TV and that he often, like, tweets things that he's just heard on Fox. So you actually bought ads on Fox TV, parodying an ad that often runs on Fox. And so to set this up, I just want to play the real catheter cowboy ad - or at least one of the real catheter cowboy ads that's run on Fox. And then we'll play the way that you parodied it. And then we'll talk about how you've done it. So here's a real ad that's run on Fox TV.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's going to be - have fun now. You will be dancing in the flickering flames of hell."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 44, "text": "UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As Catheter Cowboy) Attention, catheter patients on Medicare. I'm a professional cowboy, and I use catheters - been cowboying for 25 years. I've broken 14 bones, had two concussions and a punctured lung. I know pain. And I don't want any more of it - especially when I cath (ph).", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's going to be - have fun now. You will be dancing in the flickering flames of hell."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 45, "text": "OK. So that's an excerpt of a real ad.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's going to be - have fun now. You will be dancing in the flickering flames of hell."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 46, "text": "And here is the John Oliver \"Last Week Tonight\" ad - or at least one in a series of ads. And this one is about health care policy. And, again, it's kind of geared to an audience of one. It's geared to President Trump to slip real information into his mind as he watches Fox News.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Real ad - very real, painfully, painfully real."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 47, "text": "UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character) Attention, catheter patients.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Real ad - very real, painfully, painfully real."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 48, "text": "OK, so that's the parody ad from \"Last Week Tonight.\" So tell us the backstory to that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Catheter Cowboy) Hi - me again. I'm a professional cowboy, and I use catheters - been cowboying for 25 years. And there's two things I know. I don't like pain when I cath. And health care is a com"}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 49, "text": "OK. So we haven't spoken since Donald Trump was elected president. Were you surprised by the outcome?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was - I think it was our first story of last season when we wanted - where we felt like we had to talk about Trump's relationship with the truth before we talked about anything else that year"}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 50, "text": "As an immigrant, how is the anti-immigrant rhetoric affecting you? And I don't - Americans love Brits", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was a little less surprised than perhaps I thought I would be. I mean, I'd watched the Brexit vote earlier in the year, which had been kind of turbocharged by some of the same, you know, social issu"}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 51, "text": ", you know? So it's not like you're being demonized by Donald Trump for...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was a little less surprised than perhaps I thought I would be. I mean, I'd watched the Brexit vote earlier in the year, which had been kind of turbocharged by some of the same, you know, social issu"}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 52, "text": "...Being British.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, not as much as the president..."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 53, "text": "That's true", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Loves Norwegians. Norwegians are the gold standard..."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 54, "text": ". I know.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Loves Norwegians. Norwegians are the gold standard..."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 55, "text": "But I wonder what - how being an immigrant is affecting how you're hearing the anti-immigration rhetoric.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...For completely benign reasons, I'm sure. I can't think what it is about a Norwegian which is particularly attractive."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 56, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I guess I've - I guess, like, the really honest answer to that is it probably hurts more because I've been through the immigration system, so I have a slightly more detailed understanding of som"}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 57, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded in March with John Oliver. His HBO series \"Last Week Tonight\" is nominated for nine Emmys. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. And we'll listen back to my 1996 interview with comic playwright and screenwriter Neil Simon. He died Sunday. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "personally affect me or offend me. I kind of feel it personally because I want to be here. I really love it here. I chose to be here. And I love it here now, not I love it here even though the country"}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 58, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're doing a series of interviews this week with Emmy nominees. Let's get back to the interview I recorded in March with John Oliver, whose HBO satirical news show \"Last Week Tonight\" is nominated in nine categories, including Outstanding Variety Talk Series. Before launching his own series, he was a correspondent and guest host on \"The Daily Show\" with Jon Stewart.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "personally affect me or offend me. I kind of feel it personally because I want to be here. I really love it here. I chose to be here. And I love it here now, not I love it here even though the country"}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 59, "text": "Let's talk about you. Your parents were from Liverpool. You didn't grow up there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "personally affect me or offend me. I kind of feel it personally because I want to be here. I really love it here. I chose to be here. And I love it here now, not I love it here even though the country"}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 60, "text": "But they're from there. So were they partial to the Beatles? Did you grow up with a lot of Beatles?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 61, "text": "And did you grow up loving it or grow up thinking, that's my parents' music; I'm staying away from it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", of course, the Beatles and all the other Liverpool bands - you know, the Tremoloes, Gerry and the Pacemakers - yeah, lots of - that whole Liverpool sound echoed around our house."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 62, "text": "What did you take a hard turn away from?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". There were other parts of my parents' music that I definitely took a hard turn away from, but I absolutely loved the Beatles."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 63, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Barry Manilow."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 64, "text": "So your mother was a music teacher.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Also, you know, no kid should be listening to their parents' Barry Manilow CDs and going, this guy gets it; this guy is singing about my life."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 65, "text": "Did you play an instrument?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 66, "text": "So what was the music you were comparing your own playing to? Was it chamber music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. I did. I played the viola, which is the - you know, the slightly larger violin. I played it kind of all the way through my childhood. The thing that I found frustrating about it was that the be"}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 67, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. Like, you know, where's it - when you start being able to technically play the notes of, like, an incredible piece by Bach, like the Bach \"Double Concerto,\" just one of the most beautiful "}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 68, "text": "Did you have more patience for comedy, you know, for working and working on a sketch or on jokes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "kind of feel that the better I got, it felt like the worse I actually was."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 69, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "ceiling that was reinforced by concrete."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 70, "text": "Did you go to church a lot when you were growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "right? - when you watch it. And the grinding minutiae of that is sometimes some of the most fun work we do."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 71, "text": "In your life? In your family?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did until I was, like, 11 or 12. And I just didn't believe in it. There were too many - there were some bad things happening then, and I just didn't care..."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 72, "text": "Were these kids friends of yours?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- coming from the church that I went to, anyway. I don't want to say that was reflective of every church. But yeah, we went as kids. And, you know, there were kids at school that died. And my uncle dy"}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 73, "text": "Were they were medical deaths, or were they killed, or...?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I knew them. Yeah. It was just - yeah, it was just, like, a sequence of really sad, awful events. And it just..."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 74, "text": "Were they OK with that? Because sometimes when you're 11 or 12, you don't have that much autonomy...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Some were medical out of nowhere. Some were killed. It was just awful. And so it's hard. Like, that's the time when you're looking for some kind of answers. But the answers that I got were such garbag"}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 75, "text": "...When it comes to if you're going to church or not.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, I think..."}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 76, "text": "Well, it's so great to talk with you again. Thank you so much for coming back to our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- don't just sleep. So I did other things on a Sunday morning that was not church. And yeah, I think I was pretty firm about it. I was not that rebellious as a kid, but I was really done with church i"}
{"id": "641554869", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "John Oliver", "title": "John Oliver Finds Humor In The News No One Wants To Hear About", "question_index": 77, "text": "John Oliver recorded in March. His HBO series \"Last Week Tonight\" is nominated for nine Emmys, including outstanding variety talk series and outstanding writing for a variety series. Our series of interviews with Emmy nominees continues tomorrow with Scott Frank, who wrote and directed the Netflix western series \"Godless,\" and Allison Janney. After a break, we'll remember playwright and screenwriter Neil Simon, who died Sunday at the age of 91. We'll listen back to a 1996 interview with him. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, you're welcome, Terry. It's always fun to talk to you."}
{"id": "642563231", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "Jack Lemmon", "title": "Playwright Neil Simon Explains Why He 'Just Always Wanted To Write'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're going to listen back to an interview with playwright and screenwriter Neil Simon. He died Sunday at the age of 91. His New York Times obituary said his name was synonymous with Broadway comedy, and he helped redefine popular American humor, with an emphasis on the frictions of urban living and the agonizing conflicts of family intimacy. Simon adapted several of his Broadway shows into films. His best-known titles include \"The Odd Couple,\" \"Barefoot In The Park,\" \"Come Blow Your Horn,\" \"Plaza Suite,\" \"The Sunshine Boys,\" \"The Goodbye Girl,\" \"Brighton Beach Memoirs\" and \"Laughter On The 23rd Floor.\" He wrote the books for the musicals \"Sweet Charity\" and \"Promises, Promises.\" He started his career in the early days of TV - writing for \"Sid Caesar Show\" and Phil Silvers' \"Sgt. Bilko.\" The TV series \"The Odd Couple\" was adapted from his hit play. He wrote the 1968 film adaptation. Let's start with a clip from the film. It starred Walter Matthau and Jack Lemmon as two divorced men sharing an apartment, having the same kinds of problems with each other they used to have with their wives.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "642563231", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "Jack Lemmon", "title": "Playwright Neil Simon Explains Why He 'Just Always Wanted To Write'", "question_index": 1, "text": "I spoke with Neil Simon after the publication of his 1996 memoir \"Rewrites.\" I asked how he developed his ear for dialogue.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Oscar Madison) I'm going to you exactly what it is. It's the cooking, the cleaning, the crying. It's the talking in your sleep. It's those moose calls that open your ears at 2 o'clock in the morni"}
{"id": "642563231", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "Jack Lemmon", "title": "Playwright Neil Simon Explains Why He 'Just Always Wanted To Write'", "question_index": 2, "text": "Oh, right. Or they talk about you even though you could hear.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I never thought about it much. But the only thing that came to me is that when I was a young boy - 5 and 6 and 7 years old - my parents would take me to visit their relatives. And for some reason, I t"}
{"id": "642563231", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "Jack Lemmon", "title": "Playwright Neil Simon Explains Why He 'Just Always Wanted To Write'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Early on in your career, your brother Danny was your writing partner. He's - what? - about 8 years older than you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I could hear, but they were talking family matters - or gossip or whatever. And I just sat there. And once in a while, they'd give me a cookie or something. And I just listened. It stuck in my head. A"}
{"id": "642563231", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "Jack Lemmon", "title": "Playwright Neil Simon Explains Why He 'Just Always Wanted To Write'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Yeah. And you write in your book that he was somewhere between your brother and your father. He was your mentor as well as your brother. And your father actually was in and out of the family. He left the family and came back, I think, about eight times?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Eight and a half years older, yes."}
{"id": "642563231", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "Jack Lemmon", "title": "Playwright Neil Simon Explains Why He 'Just Always Wanted To Write'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Was it strange to have him coming and going like that - not knowing exactly what his relationship to you was?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly, yes."}
{"id": "642563231", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "Jack Lemmon", "title": "Playwright Neil Simon Explains Why He 'Just Always Wanted To Write'", "question_index": 6, "text": "I imagine your mother, when your father was gone, ended up very busy with earning money to take care of the family.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was awful because I felt my life was sort of on a yo-yo, to give my kind of example. My mother never knew when he was coming back. And the whole world lit up when he came back because it meant not "}
{"id": "642563231", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "Jack Lemmon", "title": "Playwright Neil Simon Explains Why He 'Just Always Wanted To Write'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Why not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yes, she was uneducated. She did not have a job. And she would do whatever she could to provide for us. She borrowed from her family. But what she eventually did, which was the hardest thing for"}
{"id": "642563231", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "Jack Lemmon", "title": "Playwright Neil Simon Explains Why He 'Just Always Wanted To Write'", "question_index": 8, "text": "You know, the stereotype of the Jewish mother, of your mother's generation, was the overly possessive, overly neurotic Jewish mother, right? I imagine your mother was much too busy...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were like strangers. They didn't talk to us. They were foreign and spoke some English. But it was difficult. And it was not my father. And I felt I was living in not my house but their house."}
{"id": "642563231", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "Jack Lemmon", "title": "Playwright Neil Simon Explains Why He 'Just Always Wanted To Write'", "question_index": 9, "text": "...To fit that stereotype at all.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was."}
{"id": "642563231", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "Jack Lemmon", "title": "Playwright Neil Simon Explains Why He 'Just Always Wanted To Write'", "question_index": 10, "text": "You write that your brother got you a whore shortly after your 21st birthday. And that was your sexual initiation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I don't think she did fit that stereotype. She was very different. She was very loving and very encouraging in terms of my brother and I doing the writing. My brother - foolishly I think - would r"}
{"id": "642563231", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "Jack Lemmon", "title": "Playwright Neil Simon Explains Why He 'Just Always Wanted To Write'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Looking back, was that a good way to become initiated?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it was."}
{"id": "642563231", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "Jack Lemmon", "title": "Playwright Neil Simon Explains Why He 'Just Always Wanted To Write'", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know if it was a good way. It was the only way. I mean, if he left it to me, I'd be 54 before it happened."}
{"id": "642563231", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "Jack Lemmon", "title": "Playwright Neil Simon Explains Why He 'Just Always Wanted To Write'", "question_index": 13, "text": "There's a similar but different scene in \"Biloxi Blues\" where the character there also has his first experience with a prostitute. But that's on an army base, so it's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm sure glad it did happen. But it did change me. I mean, you have to get through that moment because it was the most fearful moment of my life. And I don't know why it is looking back. I mean, you d"}
{"id": "642563231", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "Jack Lemmon", "title": "Playwright Neil Simon Explains Why He 'Just Always Wanted To Write'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Let me ask you about creating two of your most famous characters - Felix and Oscar, \"The Odd Couple.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, but that - the origin of that scene in that film was exactly what happened to me. I mean, it was with a prostitute. It was his fellow friends bringing him there. There was a line in it that summ"}
{"id": "642563231", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "Jack Lemmon", "title": "Playwright Neil Simon Explains Why He 'Just Always Wanted To Write'", "question_index": 15, "text": "How did you come up with those characters?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "642563231", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "Jack Lemmon", "title": "Playwright Neil Simon Explains Why He 'Just Always Wanted To Write'", "question_index": 16, "text": "Now, how'd you feel about \"The Odd Couple\" when it became a TV series, where instead of, like, a constructed play every week, there was another little adventure or mishap to write around?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I just watched it in real life. It was my brother Danny and a friend of his named Roy Gerber, both of whom moved into together in the same apartment because they recently were divorced. And they"}
{"id": "642563231", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "Jack Lemmon", "title": "Playwright Neil Simon Explains Why He 'Just Always Wanted To Write'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I have to preface that by telling you the story, which you may have read in the book, that I had a business agent who thought he was doing me a favor by getting a deal made with Paramount Pictur"}
{"id": "642563231", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "Jack Lemmon", "title": "Playwright Neil Simon Explains Why He 'Just Always Wanted To Write'", "question_index": 18, "text": "Oh, boy. What heartburn it must cause to feel that. You almost don't want to see the success of your own work because you're not getting anything out of it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I also lost all of the stage rights of \"Barefoot In The Park,\" never made a money - penny on that play from the day it opened."}
{"id": "642563231", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "Jack Lemmon", "title": "Playwright Neil Simon Explains Why He 'Just Always Wanted To Write'", "question_index": 19, "text": "We're listening to my 1996 interview with Neil Simon. He died Sunday at the age of 91. We'll hear more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know. It was hard, but maybe just pushed me on to do other things. And I said, I've got to get on with this. I'm not going to sit and just gripe about it for the rest of my life. And I just went on "}
{"id": "642563231", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "Jack Lemmon", "title": "Playwright Neil Simon Explains Why He 'Just Always Wanted To Write'", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 1996 interview with comic playwright and screenwriter Neil Simon. He died Sunday at the age of 91. We spoke after the publication of his memoir \"Rewrites.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know. It was hard, but maybe just pushed me on to do other things. And I said, I've got to get on with this. I'm not going to sit and just gripe about it for the rest of my life. And I just went on "}
{"id": "642563231", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "Jack Lemmon", "title": "Playwright Neil Simon Explains Why He 'Just Always Wanted To Write'", "question_index": 21, "text": "You write a little bit in your book about being in analysis. And you say that your first year of analysis was, in a sense, an attempt to introduce you to yourself, the two sides of you, one the writer and the other - the person who doesn't write. Are these two sides of you at odds?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know. It was hard, but maybe just pushed me on to do other things. And I said, I've got to get on with this. I'm not going to sit and just gripe about it for the rest of my life. And I just went on "}
{"id": "642563231", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "Jack Lemmon", "title": "Playwright Neil Simon Explains Why He 'Just Always Wanted To Write'", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they have been for years. They weren't always at odds. They were just different people. They were not the person that I was with my family, with my friends. The writer is a very solitary person,"}
{"id": "642563231", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "Jack Lemmon", "title": "Playwright Neil Simon Explains Why He 'Just Always Wanted To Write'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Well, maybe that's because the two have lived together for so long, they've become more acclimated to each other.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He never saw himself in it at all, which is what most people do. Sometimes they - people come up to me and they say, that was me you were writing about, wasn't it? And it wasn't at all anything that I"}
{"id": "642563231", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "Jack Lemmon", "title": "Playwright Neil Simon Explains Why He 'Just Always Wanted To Write'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Well, that's a nice way of looking at it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know. I'm on my own \"Odd Couple.\""}
{"id": "642563231", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "Jack Lemmon", "title": "Playwright Neil Simon Explains Why He 'Just Always Wanted To Write'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Did analysis help?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "642563231", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "Jack Lemmon", "title": "Playwright Neil Simon Explains Why He 'Just Always Wanted To Write'", "question_index": 26, "text": "I thought a kind of funny part of your book was, I guess it's - the late '60s, early '70s, you were writing about the era of the so-called sexual revolution. And you were married, but you wanted in", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, analysis, I think, helps in the long run. I never went for, like, long, long periods at a time. I would go from time to time when there was great trouble in my life - when my first wife died, wh"}
{"id": "642563231", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "Jack Lemmon", "title": "Playwright Neil Simon Explains Why He 'Just Always Wanted To Write'", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, analysis, I think, helps in the long run. I never went for, like, long, long periods at a time. I would go from time to time when there was great trouble in my life - when my first wife died, wh"}
{"id": "642563231", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "Jack Lemmon", "title": "Playwright Neil Simon Explains Why He 'Just Always Wanted To Write'", "question_index": 28, "text": "You wanted to be a part of this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I didn't..."}
{"id": "642563231", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "Jack Lemmon", "title": "Playwright Neil Simon Explains Why He 'Just Always Wanted To Write'", "question_index": 29, "text": "You have a theory that you write about in the book that your mind doesn't know, when you're writing, that it's only fiction. Your mind thinks you're actually living through whatever you're putting on paper.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it wasn't the sexual revolution so much. I'd been married for 14 years, and I thought I was looking at myself in a different way. And I said, you got married fairly young. I had very, very few e"}
{"id": "642563231", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "Jack Lemmon", "title": "Playwright Neil Simon Explains Why He 'Just Always Wanted To Write'", "question_index": 30, "text": "What has led you to this conclusion?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "642563231", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "Jack Lemmon", "title": "Playwright Neil Simon Explains Why He 'Just Always Wanted To Write'", "question_index": 31, "text": "So fiction really does take its toll on you physically.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because my body goes through the pain that I am going through in the writing. I feel the tenseness if I'm writing a scene between, let's say, a husband and wife who are having a fractious marriage. Th"}
{"id": "642563231", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "Jack Lemmon", "title": "Playwright Neil Simon Explains Why He 'Just Always Wanted To Write'", "question_index": 32, "text": "Have - did you ever try?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It does, but it's been very rewarding for me. I don't think I would like to have been anything else in life but a writer, but I also don't think I could have been anything else."}
{"id": "642563231", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "Jack Lemmon", "title": "Playwright Neil Simon Explains Why He 'Just Always Wanted To Write'", "question_index": 33, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It does, but it's been very rewarding for me. I don't think I would like to have been anything else in life but a writer, but I also don't think I could have been anything else."}
{"id": "642563231", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "Jack Lemmon", "title": "Playwright Neil Simon Explains Why He 'Just Always Wanted To Write'", "question_index": 34, "text": "Right. Well, Neil Simon, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no, I was too busy writing."}
{"id": "642563231", "date": "2018-08-28", "guest": "Jack Lemmon", "title": "Playwright Neil Simon Explains Why He 'Just Always Wanted To Write'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Neil Simon, recorded in 1996. He died Sunday at the age of 91. Tomorrow, we'll continue our series of interviews with Emmy nominees. We'll hear from Allison Janney, who's nominated for lead actress in a comedy for her performance in the series \"Mom,\" and Scott Frank, writer and director of the Netflix western series \"Godless.\" I hope you'll join us. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Mooj Zadie, Thea Chaloner and Seth Kelley. I'm Terry Gross. We'll end with Gwen Verdon singing one of the hits from the musical \"Sweet Charity.\" Neil Simon wrote the book. The music is by Cy Coleman and Dorothy Fields.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a pleasure."}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. This week, we're featuring interviews with Emmy nominees and people whose shows were nominated. The award ceremony is Monday, September 17. The Netflix Western series \"Godless\" is up for 12 Emmys, including two for my guest Scott Frank, who's nominated for outstanding directing and outstanding writing for a limited series, movie or dramatic special. \"Godless\" has a great villain.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 1, "text": "That's Jeff Daniels, who has an Emmy nomination for his performance as Frank Griffin, an outlaw obsessed with vengeance and willing to kill any person and destroy any town that stands in his way. The person he's obsessed with is Roy Goode, an orphan who Frank took into his gang and thought of as a son until Roy broke away and turned against him. My guest Scott Frank wrote and directed all seven episodes of \"Godless.\" His film screenwriting credits include the adaptations of two Elmore Leonard novels, \"Get Shorty\" and \"Out Of Sight,\" and the Philip K. Dick story \"The Minority Report.\" \"Godless\" has everything fans of Westerns love, but the story is pretty unconventional. It's set in the 1880s in La Belle, a New Mexican town run by women because most of the men died in a mining accident. The widow of the town's mayor dresses in his clothes, has become the de facto mayor and has a lover who is also a woman. One of the storylines involves an interracial romance. Another woman on a ranch on the outskirts of town has a son who's half Native American. This woman is a great shot with a rifle. Let's hear another scene from \"Godless.\" In the first episode, we see the men and women of another town singing a hymn in church when Frank, the villain, rides into the church on his horse, joining in the singing and stopping at the altar to deliver a menacing sermon while astride his horse.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Frank Griffin) God - what God? Mister, you clearly don't know where you are. Look around. There ain't no higher-up around here to watch over you and your young'uns. This here's the paradise of the"}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 2, "text": "Wow", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Frank Griffin, singing) My God to thee - nearer, my God, to thee, nearer to thee. Folks, how 'bout it? Y'all been baptized? Y'all wash your bodies once a week? Have you committed adultery, ma'am? "}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 3, "text": ". Scott Frank, welcome to FRESH AIR. I love that scene. It's such a violation. This villain rides into the church on his horse and, on his horse, goes to the altar...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Frank Griffin, singing) My God to thee - nearer, my God, to thee, nearer to thee. Folks, how 'bout it? Y'all been baptized? Y'all wash your bodies once a week? Have you committed adultery, ma'am? "}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 4, "text": "...Basically starts threatening everybody that they might die if they do the wrong thing. It is all so wrong. And how did that image come to you of your villain riding to the altar of the church on his horse?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Everything is wrong."}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 5, "text": "I'm so glad you made a Western because I'm a real fan of Westerns. And this Western is, like, so good. Why did you want to make a Western? And this is a major commitment. We're talking about - like, you've basically made seven movies here because there are seven episodes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it just seemed like the natural thing that Frank would do. And I knew that later there were going to be other scenes of people riding their horses into various structures. And I thought it m"}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 6, "text": "So the main town in \"Godless\" is called La Belle. And this is a town where all the men died. It's a mining town. And all the men or most of the men have died in a mining accident. So it's basically a town of widows with a few older men. And one of the widows played by Merritt Wever who our listeners might know from \"Nurse Jackie\" - she plays Mary Agnes, who's a widow of the late mayor of La Belle. And now that she is no longer a wife, she's given up a lot of, like, quote, \"womanly\" kinds of things. She dresses in men's clothes, a cowboy hat. She carries a rifle, and she's a good shot. And there's a scene in \"Godless\" that's kind of like, what if \"The Magnificent Seven\" were women...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have to tell you about a woman named Mimi Munson, who's instrumental in all of this. Mimi's been my researcher for the last 17 years. And I told Mimi I'm thinking about writing a Western. I don't kn"}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 7, "text": "...And they were protecting a town? Were you thinking of \"The Magnificent Seven\" at all?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have to tell you about a woman named Mimi Munson, who's instrumental in all of this. Mimi's been my researcher for the last 17 years. And I told Mimi I'm thinking about writing a Western. I don't kn"}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 8, "text": "So many movies", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was thinking about so many Westerns..."}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was thinking about so many Westerns..."}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm sure that was one of them. And I'm sure now that you've said that, someone is about to do \"The Magnificent Seven\" with women."}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 11, "text": "Well, another example of that - I mean, Sergio Leone in his Westerns is famous, among other things, for those iconic close-ups of faces. And you have, like, a couple other shots, one with the hero of", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm sure that will be happening shortly. But yeah, there were lots of things that - lots of movies and conventions. I really set out - one thing because I was just going to have fun - and I thought, y"}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 12, "text": "the series and one with the heroine. And I can't say I've seen that Sergio Leone shot on a woman's face before.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm sure that will be happening shortly. But yeah, there were lots of things that - lots of movies and conventions. I really set out - one thing because I was just going to have fun - and I thought, y"}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 13, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Those movies were a huge part of my childhood. And later, when Clint Eastwood began directing, obviously he was hugely influenced by him as well, but - movies like \"High Plains Drifter\" and certainl"}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 14, "text": "But did you think to yourself, I'm going to do that really macho Sergio Leone iconic close-up, but it's going to be with a woman?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I watched all those movies over and over. And the language and the rhythm - he's not afraid to slow down to make everything take longer. And yet I was never bored in those movies, even when I was "}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 15, "text": "So a good Western needs a good villain. And, boy, did you create one...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes. All the time, they're shot - the way they look down the rifle, the way the camera looks up the rifle towards them, they're all shots that are normally used with men. And I don't know that I "}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 16, "text": "...In a character that's played by Jeff Daniels, Frank Griffin. So what were your ingredients to creating a great villain?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes. All the time, they're shot - the way they look down the rifle, the way the camera looks up the rifle towards them, they're all shots that are normally used with men. And I don't know that I "}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 17, "text": "In the first episode, Frank has been shot in the arm. And he gets his arm amputated of course without any kind of anesthesia. We don't see it, but we hear him. And he's a pretty stoic guy. We hear him cry out in pain. And for the rest of the series, he's, you know, on his horse with one arm. Why did he have to be, like, a one-armed bad guy? Is that - is there, like, a history of that in Western literature?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", who believes they're doing a good thing. I'm more interested in that person than the person who wants to, you know, destroy the world - but somebody who actually thinks they're doing good, who think"}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 18, "text": "Yeah. There's just a - he wraps up his arm in, like, a blanket or a cloth - yeah, puts it on his saddlebag and", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I haven't read a lot of it, of - read a lot of that or seen it a lot, let's say. But he felt more powerful being that way. He felt more powerful by overcoming all of that. It seemed to me that he wa"}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 19, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I haven't read a lot of it, of - read a lot of that or seen it a lot, let's say. But he felt more powerful being that way. He felt more powerful by overcoming all of that. It seemed to me that he wa"}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 20, "text": "Well, I kept wondering, why is he doing that? Why did you have him do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And continues to carry it with him. So that's a very - I thought that just made for a very particular kind of guy. And..."}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 21, "text": "Yeah, OK - good answer", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "..."}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "..."}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 23, "text": "One of the first things we see in \"Godless\" is an entire small settlement that has been massacred. We see their bodies. We see the dead horses. We see overturned wagons. And we know right from the start that part of the series is going to be who did this, and why? And what's going to happen to them? Will there be justice? And everything kind of rolls out from there. It's quite a dramatic way to start. And I have to say, it kind of hooked me. But I also know it could also turn people off who might think, like, wow, this is just going to be really violent and bloody; I don't want to see it. So it was a kind of major choice to make. So I'm interested in that choice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "just - you know, just this side of funny. And I think it's OK to go there. And he will do anything. And he'll ride his horse into a church. He'll carry his arm with him. And there's a big, you know, t"}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 24, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, and I was very worried always, even during shooting that sequence. I would joke, you know, between setups or after certain takes. I would say, and the sound you now hear is the sound of a million"}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 25, "text": "We're listening to my interview with Scott Frank, creator of the Netflix Western series \"Godless.\" The series is nominated for 12 Emmys, including two nominations for his writing and directing. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "say, than really kind of linger in it."}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Scott Frank, creator, writer and director of the Netflix Western series \"Godless.\" The series is nominated for 12 Emmys, including two for Frank for outstanding writing and outstanding directing for a limited series, movie or dramatic special.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "say, than really kind of linger in it."}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 27, "text": "So \"Godless\" is a Western. Westerns have to have great dialogue. It's just - it's not going to be good without the great dialogue. And it has to be kind of, like, snappy and both dark and threatening and kind of witty at the same time. And you adapted two Elmore Leonard books into screenplays, \"Out Of Sight\" and \"Get Shorty.\" And he's just, like, a master of that kind of, like, snappy dialogue 'cause he's writing about, like, small-time criminals. So are there things you learned from working with Leonard - with Elmore Leonard material that you were able to apply to writing this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "say, than really kind of linger in it."}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 28, "text": "Oh, right. That's right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely. And he wrote a ton of Westerns as well. He began by writing Westerns..."}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 29, "text": "What's an example?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Yeah, short stories for magazines and so on. And Western dialogue is really tricky. And so I read tons of Western novels where they had great dialogue to see how they did it. And I was really looki"}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 30, "text": "You had to work with a lot of horses for \"Godless.\" And some of the horses are supposed to be unbroken. And they get broken. They get broken in so that people can ride them. Had you worked with horses before? Had you ever, like, rode a horse before?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Same with the letters, where how people talked about horses - tireless, sure-footed and mean. You know, I'd never heard anyone describe a horse that way. Someone being called a dead gun - I'd never he"}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 31, "text": "Oh, right because he's supposed to have an amputated arm in the series.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", that I really knew nothing. And Rusty Hendrickson, who's a wrangler who just retired from the business, was, like, a legend and had done everything from \"Dances With Wolves\" to, say, \"Django,\" you k"}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 32, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And Jeff was falling to the right when buried in the gang of men - in the 30, 35 men, there are wranglers and stunt guys that are playing members of the gang, and he has a guy assigned directly to h"}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 33, "text": "Oh, gosh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "thought, oh, my God, if I lose Jeff Daniels, that's the end of that. Jeff of course was thinking about falling off the horse in front of 40 people and getting run over by all 40 people."}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 34, "text": "Thank goodness, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So it's all - I'm joking about it now, but it's very scary. And we were really lucky. Even though we had 40 horses going all the time, very, very little - that was the biggest thing that happene"}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 35, "text": "Right, I know.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And you have horses riding into hotels, too, riding up the stairs."}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 36, "text": "So it has to be strong. It has to be able to withstand the weight of the horse.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, and they have to learn how to do that."}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 37, "text": "We\u2019re listening to my interview with Scott Frank, the creator, writer and director of the Netflix Western series \"Godless.\" It's nominated for 12 Emmys. We'll hear more after a break. And we'll feature an interview with Allison Janney. She is nominated for an Emmy for her performance in the sitcom \"Mom.\" I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we built the hotel just - the hallways are just a little bit wider than you would notice. And, you know, the doorways are just a little bit higher. But we would - we were practicing for months b"}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 38, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. This week, we're featuring interviews with Emmy nominees and people whose shows were nominated. The award ceremony is Monday, September 17. Let's get back to our interview with Scott Frank, the writer and director of the Netflix Western series \"Godless.\" The series is nominated for 12 Emmys, including two for Frank as outstanding director and writer for a limited series, movie or dramatic special. \"Godless\" is a Western that's an homage to classic Westerns but takes on stories you wouldn't find in those classics, including an interracial romance, a lesbian couple and a town run by women.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we built the hotel just - the hallways are just a little bit wider than you would notice. And, you know, the doorways are just a little bit higher. But we would - we were practicing for months b"}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 39, "text": "I have to ask you about the church. I'll remind people the series is called \"Godless\" because it seems like at times God must be absent with what's going on. But you could tell how important the church is in people's lives. So I guess I'm wondering what religion means to you in terms of the story and also in terms of your life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we built the hotel just - the hallways are just a little bit wider than you would notice. And, you know, the doorways are just a little bit higher. But we would - we were practicing for months b"}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 40, "text": "So there's a poem that the preacher reads after he shows up. And it's a beautiful poem. I expected him to be reading from the Bible. And I thought, like, gee, that's not from the Bible, I don't think", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think in terms of the story, I felt that it wasn't that - necessarily that God wasn't present for these people. It's that you can't count on God and that Frank calls out the Norwegian settlers in sa"}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 41, "text": ". Scott, where does that poem come from?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think in terms of the story, I felt that it wasn't that - necessarily that God wasn't present for these people. It's that you can't count on God and that Frank calls out the Norwegian settlers in sa"}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 42, "text": "It's just such a beautiful poem, yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It comes from a Jewish poet in either late 11th century or early 12th century named Yehuda Halevi. And I hope I'm saying that right. And I had stumbled across that poem a year or two after I had compl"}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 43, "text": "You didn't want the actors to see it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's gorgeous. It's just - it's perfect. And it's one of the best poems about grief and faith and love that I had ever seen. And it's short and just so powerful. So I didn't want to put it in the scri"}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 44, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And they'd been shooting for quite some time. And just before we started shooting the scene, I got them all together. And I - you know, I said it's our last day, and it's - and I know it's - you know,"}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 45, "text": "It's a beautiful poem. I want to play the scene where the preacher reads it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "everybody - just started falling apart as he was reading this poem. And so much of what you see in the scene is from that first take of him just reading that lovely beautiful poem that Yehuda Halevi h"}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 46, "text": "So that's a poem read out loud in the Netflix series \"Godless,\" written and directed by my guest, Scott Frank. So since \"Godless\" is a Western, and since I love Westerns and you love Westerns, I'm going to ask you to describe what you love about Westerns that led you to make one.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character) Tis a fearful thing to love what death can touch - a fearful thing to love, to hope, to dream, to be - to be and, oh, to lose - a thing for fools, this, and a hol"}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 47, "text": "Scott Frank, congratulations on \"Godless,\" and thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "? I think what I really love about the genre more than anything is that it's - it makes you feel small. You feel so small. It's man in this world where everything around him makes him feel smaller. Yo"}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 48, "text": "Scott Frank is the creator of the Netflix Western series \"Godless.\" It's nominated for 12 Emmys, including two for Frank for outstanding writing and outstanding directing for a limited series, movie or dramatic special. Here's a song from a scene from \"Godless.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me."}
{"id": "642934417", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Jeff Daniels", "title": "'Godless' Creator Was Determined To Put His Own Spin On The Classic Western", "question_index": 49, "text": "Our Emmy series continues after a break with Allison Janney. She's nominated for an Emmy for her performance in the sitcom \"Mom.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Sarah Doyle and Charlotte Temple, singing) With a kiss as addictive as nicotine. And don't forget the girls of La Belle won't kiss even mama\u2026"}
{"id": "642946608", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Anna Faris", "title": "Allison Janney On Sex, Sorkin And Being The Tallest Woman In The Room", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's continue our series of Emmy nominees with Allison Janney. She's nominated for Outstanding Lead Actress in a Comedy Series for her performance on the CBS sitcom \"Mom.\" She's already won two Emmys for \"Mom.\" One was in 2014, the same year she won for her performance in \"Masters Of Sex.\" She won four Emmys for her performance on \"The West Wing\" as White House Press Secretary C.J. Cregg. This year, she won an Oscar for best supporting actress for her performance in \"I, Tonya.\" I spoke with her in 2014, and we started with a clip from the first season of \"Mom.\" Janney plays Bonnie. When the series begins, Bonnie is a single mother who's done a lot of drinking, partying and sleeping around, but she'd recently gotten sober and was trying to improve her relationship with her adult daughter, who's had her own alcohol and drug problems. In the scene, Bonnie is calling her daughter in the middle of the night with some surprising news.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "642946608", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Anna Faris", "title": "Allison Janney On Sex, Sorkin And Being The Tallest Woman In The Room", "question_index": 1, "text": "So as we heard in that clip, there's a lot of laughter in the series. And in the scene that we heard, there was, like, laughter after every single line.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Bonnie) I don't need to. I've got all the signs. I missed my period. I'm moody. My nipples are incredibly angry. Trust me; there's fruit in these loins."}
{"id": "642946608", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Anna Faris", "title": "Allison Janney On Sex, Sorkin And Being The Tallest Woman In The Room", "question_index": 2, "text": "And is that all laughter from the audience. Is there a laugh track, too? Is the laughter sweetened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know."}
{"id": "642946608", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Anna Faris", "title": "Allison Janney On Sex, Sorkin And Being The Tallest Woman In The Room", "question_index": 3, "text": "In the series \"Mom,\" your character goes to twelve-step meetings because she's a recovering alcoholic and is only recently sober. I know that your younger brother committed suicide, and I believe he had been - that he had had a drinking problem. And so I'm wondering what it's like for you to treat alcoholism in the kind of lighthearted way that the series does after seeing, you know, how deadly it can actually be.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I know. Some people - it's amazing, but they're really - the live audience is there, and they were - they are laughing after every single line. And it's - and you have to hold like you do on the"}
{"id": "642946608", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Anna Faris", "title": "Allison Janney On Sex, Sorkin And Being The Tallest Woman In The Room", "question_index": 4, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Allison Janney. So I think a lot of people first got to know you as C.J., the press secretary, on \"the West Wing.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, definitely was - the loss of my brother was a huge moment - life-changer for me. And I spent a long time trying to help him get sober. I sent him to countless rehabs. I tried to be there to help"}
{"id": "642946608", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Anna Faris", "title": "Allison Janney On Sex, Sorkin And Being The Tallest Woman In The Room", "question_index": 5, "text": "Let's hear a scene from that. And this is a scene - President Bartlet had MS, but he was not telling people about it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "642946608", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Anna Faris", "title": "Allison Janney On Sex, Sorkin And Being The Tallest Woman In The Room", "question_index": 6, "text": "And in this scene, Oliver Platt, who plays the White House counsel, has learned that the president has MS and has been keeping it from the public. And he's trying to figure out who on the White House staff new and has been helping in the cover-up and who didn't. So here he is questioning you about whether you participated in covering up that information.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "642946608", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Anna Faris", "title": "Allison Janney On Sex, Sorkin And Being The Tallest Woman In The Room", "question_index": 7, "text": "That's my guest Allison Janney with Oliver Platt in a scene from \"The West Wing.\" So I always wonder when you do that kind of snappy retort type of Aaron Sorkin dialogue, does it improve your ability to have witty retorts in real life and to have razor-sharp dialogue when you're speaking extemporaneously?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As C.J. Cregg) Many, many times. Oh, C.J.'s in trouble."}
{"id": "642946608", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Anna Faris", "title": "Allison Janney On Sex, Sorkin And Being The Tallest Woman In The Room", "question_index": 8, "text": "We're listening back to my 2014 interview with Allison Janney, who's nominated for an Emmy for her performance in the CBS sitcom \"Mom.\" We'll hear more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But no, I can't - I don't have that. I don't have that razor wit that C.J. had. Politics scared the crap out of me because I did not grow up in a family where we talked about anything really but, you "}
{"id": "642946608", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Anna Faris", "title": "Allison Janney On Sex, Sorkin And Being The Tallest Woman In The Room", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to our Emmy series and my interview with Allison Janney. She's nominated for an Emmy for her performance in the sitcom \"Mom.\" Last year, she won an Oscar for her performance in \"I, Tonya,\" as Tonya Harding's mother. When I spoke with Janney in 2014, I had no idea she'd have a role in a movie about a figure skater.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But no, I can't - I don't have that. I don't have that razor wit that C.J. had. Politics scared the crap out of me because I did not grow up in a family where we talked about anything really but, you "}
{"id": "642946608", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Anna Faris", "title": "Allison Janney On Sex, Sorkin And Being The Tallest Woman In The Room", "question_index": 10, "text": "So when you were young, when you were a teenager, I think you didn't want to be an actor; you're thinking more about being a figure skater.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But no, I can't - I don't have that. I don't have that razor wit that C.J. had. Politics scared the crap out of me because I did not grow up in a family where we talked about anything really but, you "}
{"id": "642946608", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Anna Faris", "title": "Allison Janney On Sex, Sorkin And Being The Tallest Woman In The Room", "question_index": 11, "text": "But then you had a really bad accident and injured your leg.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes."}
{"id": "642946608", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Anna Faris", "title": "Allison Janney On Sex, Sorkin And Being The Tallest Woman In The Room", "question_index": 12, "text": "What happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "642946608", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Anna Faris", "title": "Allison Janney On Sex, Sorkin And Being The Tallest Woman In The Room", "question_index": 13, "text": "Was your leg almost - was it at risk of amputation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was 17, and I was at a party that my friends and my parents were throwing. It was an outdoor party, and there were these sliding doors - some of them open, some of them closed - right by the band. A"}
{"id": "642946608", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Anna Faris", "title": "Allison Janney On Sex, Sorkin And Being The Tallest Woman In The Room", "question_index": 14, "text": "How did that figure, if it all, into your decision to act?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I lost - well, first of all, I lost, like, three-quarters of my blood. I lost an artery and cut tendon. And it was - I was in the hospital for, like, seven, eight weeks. I missed my firs"}
{"id": "642946608", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Anna Faris", "title": "Allison Janney On Sex, Sorkin And Being The Tallest Woman In The Room", "question_index": 15, "text": "How tall are you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it definitely took out the possibility of being a skater. And I wasn't that good anyway. I was graceful, but I'm too big. I couldn't - it was - that's such an athletic sport, and I was very grac"}
{"id": "642946608", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Anna Faris", "title": "Allison Janney On Sex, Sorkin And Being The Tallest Woman In The Room", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I am, you know - I say 5'12\", ha-ha."}
{"id": "642946608", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Anna Faris", "title": "Allison Janney On Sex, Sorkin And Being The Tallest Woman In The Room", "question_index": 17, "text": "Now, how did that affect you as a teenager? And how did it affect you as a young actress when you were getting started?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I am - I'm definitely 6 feet. And in my heels, I'm 6'3\", yeah."}
{"id": "642946608", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Anna Faris", "title": "Allison Janney On Sex, Sorkin And Being The Tallest Woman In The Room", "question_index": 18, "text": "Allison Janney recorded in 2014, the year she won an Emmy for her performance in the CBS sitcom \"Mom.\" She's nominated again for her performance in \"Mom.\" Tomorrow we'll continue our series of interviews with Emmy nominees and hear from Stephen Colbert, Jake Tapper and W. Kamau Bell. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Those are the two - a lot of stuff in between, but I do do well in getting those kind of parts - authoritative or completely crazy, which I love. I love doing - I love both of those kinds of roles."}
{"id": "642946608", "date": "2018-08-29", "guest": "Anna Faris", "title": "Allison Janney On Sex, Sorkin And Being The Tallest Woman In The Room", "question_index": 19, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our associate producer for digital media is Molly Seavey-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Those are the two - a lot of stuff in between, but I do do well in getting those kind of parts - authoritative or completely crazy, which I love. I love doing - I love both of those kinds of roles."}
{"id": "643283452", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "W Kamau Bell", "title": "Comic W. Kamau Bell On The 'Shades Of America' And Not Feeling 'Black Enough'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's continue our series of Emmy nominees with comic W. Kamau Bell. His CNN series \"United Shades Of America\" is nominated for three Emmys, including one for Bell as outstanding host for a reality or reality competition program. Last year, the show won for oustanding unstructured reality program. In \"United Shades Of America,\" Bell travels to communities around America talking to people about the challenges they face. He's also gone to places you wouldn't expect an African-American to go like a Ku Klux Klan rally. When I spoke with him in June, \"United Shades Of America\" was in its third season.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "643283452", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "W Kamau Bell", "title": "Comic W. Kamau Bell On The 'Shades Of America' And Not Feeling 'Black Enough'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Kamau, welcome back to FRESH AIR, and congratulations. You just had your third baby 16 days ago. Whoa.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "643283452", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "W Kamau Bell", "title": "Comic W. Kamau Bell On The 'Shades Of America' And Not Feeling 'Black Enough'", "question_index": 2, "text": "So this is a good time to talk about the genealogy series that you did since you have a new child now. So this is a kind of, like, adjunct to your CNN series. And in order to trace your genealogy, you brought your parents together. Your parents separated when you were a toddler. They were never married, and they hadn't seen each other for nine years since your wedding. What was it like for you to bring them together and to see them together? What's it like for you to see your parents who were so briefly together reunite because of this project?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "643283452", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "W Kamau Bell", "title": "Comic W. Kamau Bell On The 'Shades Of America' And Not Feeling 'Black Enough'", "question_index": 3, "text": "So getting back to your Ancestry search, your father and his family had made an assumption about a white man within the family tree. And this man was your father's great-grandfather, your great-great-grandfather. So he was a white man who fathered children with your great-great-grandmother. And the assumption was he was a slave owner - that he probably owned your great-great-grandmother and that's why she bore his children. But what did you actually...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Like, I just think that, like, I don't know that they felt like it was a nightmare, but for me, it was, like, they really clearly had a hard time being in the same room together. This was an opportu"}
{"id": "643283452", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "W Kamau Bell", "title": "Comic W. Kamau Bell On The 'Shades Of America' And Not Feeling 'Black Enough'", "question_index": 4, "text": "And they certainly couldn't have been married because it wouldn't have been legal.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What we found out was that according to Ancestry, there's no records of him ever owning anybody. He was listed at various points as a carpenter or as a farmer. He was also many years older than my gre"}
{"id": "643283452", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "W Kamau Bell", "title": "Comic W. Kamau Bell On The 'Shades Of America' And Not Feeling 'Black Enough'", "question_index": 5, "text": "And so what was it like for you to see that document?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no, no."}
{"id": "643283452", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "W Kamau Bell", "title": "Comic W. Kamau Bell On The 'Shades Of America' And Not Feeling 'Black Enough'", "question_index": 6, "text": "What about the DNA? Did you find out your DNA and was it meaningful for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The documents that really hit me were the ones where members of our family were being counted as property. And they were sort of tick marks on a piece of paper - not with their names attached, but lik"}
{"id": "643283452", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "W Kamau Bell", "title": "Comic W. Kamau Bell On The 'Shades Of America' And Not Feeling 'Black Enough'", "question_index": 7, "text": "No. I'm going to say it's the margin of error.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. For me, it's weird. For my dad and my mom, finding out the family stories was the stuff that they were really interested in because these are names they've had their whole lives and ideas of how"}
{"id": "643283452", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "W Kamau Bell", "title": "Comic W. Kamau Bell On The 'Shades Of America' And Not Feeling 'Black Enough'", "question_index": 8, "text": "So on your mother's side, there was something I thought was really interesting which is that your great, great uncle enlisted when he was 18 in 1864 to fight for the U.S. Colored Troops in the Civil War to fight to end slavery. That's an interesting fact.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I want to go with my not-black-enough theory. It sort of supports my whole narrative of life at this point."}
{"id": "643283452", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "W Kamau Bell", "title": "Comic W. Kamau Bell On The 'Shades Of America' And Not Feeling 'Black Enough'", "question_index": 9, "text": "My guest is comic W. Kamau Bell. His CNN series \"United Shades Of America\" is nominated for three Emmys. We'll hear more of that interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And this is something that there was no knowledge on my mom's side of the family about that. And so that was really interesting because, you know, we went to this church that my mom's mom had go"}
{"id": "643283452", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "W Kamau Bell", "title": "Comic W. Kamau Bell On The 'Shades Of America' And Not Feeling 'Black Enough'", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my latest interview with W. Kamau Bell. He's a comic whose CNN series \"United Shades Of America\" is nominated for three Emmys. His Netflix standup special is called \"Private School Negro.\" When I interviewed him in June, we talked about the impact of the #MeToo movement on the comedy scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And this is something that there was no knowledge on my mom's side of the family about that. And so that was really interesting because, you know, we went to this church that my mom's mom had go"}
{"id": "643283452", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "W Kamau Bell", "title": "Comic W. Kamau Bell On The 'Shades Of America' And Not Feeling 'Black Enough'", "question_index": 11, "text": "We've talked before about a friend of yours who called you out for one of your jokes that she thought was just like, you know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And this is something that there was no knowledge on my mom's side of the family about that. And so that was really interesting because, you know, we went to this church that my mom's mom had go"}
{"id": "643283452", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "W Kamau Bell", "title": "Comic W. Kamau Bell On The 'Shades Of America' And Not Feeling 'Black Enough'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Sexist and dumb, that's what I was looking for.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sexist and dumb."}
{"id": "643283452", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "W Kamau Bell", "title": "Comic W. Kamau Bell On The 'Shades Of America' And Not Feeling 'Black Enough'", "question_index": 13, "text": "And at first, you bristled. And then you changed the joke - or took it out, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sexist and dumb."}
{"id": "643283452", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "W Kamau Bell", "title": "Comic W. Kamau Bell On The 'Shades Of America' And Not Feeling 'Black Enough'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Oh, OK. OK. So anyways, your thoughts on how the #MeToo movement and the insistence on a level of respect, you know, when it comes to what you say - you know, what a comic is saying and how they are living.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, my friend Martha Rynberg, who's actually got a consultant credit on my new Netflix special because that's how powerful she is."}
{"id": "643283452", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "W Kamau Bell", "title": "Comic W. Kamau Bell On The 'Shades Of America' And Not Feeling 'Black Enough'", "question_index": 15, "text": "So your new special is called \"Private School Negro.\" Your previous special is called \"Semi-Prominent Negro.\" Why do you like the word Negro?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Like I just feel like - and none of our behavior is above reproach if we've been in this industry, and we've seen things. So we all have to be able to stand up to an audit. And it's going to take do"}
{"id": "643283452", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "W Kamau Bell", "title": "Comic W. Kamau Bell On The 'Shades Of America' And Not Feeling 'Black Enough'", "question_index": 16, "text": "My interview with W. Kamau Bell was recorded in June. His CNN series, \"United Shades of America,\" is nominated for three Emmys. \"The Late Show With Stephen Colbert\" is also nominated for three Emmys. We'll hear an except of my latest interview with Colbert after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". They were not African-Americans. They were the people who said, stop calling us colored. Stop calling us [expletive]. We are Negro. It was like sort of the time that black people politically chose a"}
{"id": "643286858", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Jake Tapper", "title": "CNN's Jake Tapper On Kellyanne Conway And Knowing When To Cut People Off", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today we continue our series with Emmy nominees. You may not think of news shows when you think of Emmys, and maybe that's because there's a separate ceremony for the news and documentary Emmys. We start today's show with Jake Tapper, who's nominated for two of those Emmys - one for his CNN Sunday show \"State Of The Union,\" the other for his live interview with Kellyanne Conway on his weekday show \"The Lead,\" also on CNN. We talked about that interview when I spoke with Tapper in April. His Kellyanne Conway interview was just one of his challenging encounters with members of the Trump administration in which the interviewee stated falsehoods or evaded his questions. After Trump adviser Stephen Miller evaded Tapper's questions, Tapper terminated the interview, saying that Miller was wasting his audience's time. We talked about that interview, too. When we spoke, his debut novel, \"The Hellfire Club,\" had just been published.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "643286858", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Jake Tapper", "title": "CNN's Jake Tapper On Kellyanne Conway And Knowing When To Cut People Off", "question_index": 1, "text": "Let's talk about your work as a journalist now. And I want to start with a clip from one of your greatest hits, so to speak.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "643286858", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Jake Tapper", "title": "CNN's Jake Tapper On Kellyanne Conway And Knowing When To Cut People Off", "question_index": 2, "text": "And this is your interview with President Trump's senior adviser for policy, Stephen Miller. This is from January 8 of 2018. And you're talking to him about Michael Wolff's then-newly published book \"Fire And Fury,\" which was a behind-the-scenes look of the early days of the Trump White House. So here is an excerpt of that interview. In fact, this is the final part of that interview.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "643286858", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Jake Tapper", "title": "CNN's Jake Tapper On Kellyanne Conway And Knowing When To Cut People Off", "question_index": 3, "text": "Wow", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As Republican lawmakers call for Attorney General Jeff Sessions to resign, in a major reversal, Democrats are now coming to his defense. What changed? We'll ask the top Democrat on the House Intellige"}
{"id": "643286858", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Jake Tapper", "title": "CNN's Jake Tapper On Kellyanne Conway And Knowing When To Cut People Off", "question_index": 4, "text": ". So that was Jake Tapper with Stephen Miller.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As Republican lawmakers call for Attorney General Jeff Sessions to resign, in a major reversal, Democrats are now coming to his defense. What changed? We'll ask the top Democrat on the House Intellige"}
{"id": "643286858", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Jake Tapper", "title": "CNN's Jake Tapper On Kellyanne Conway And Knowing When To Cut People Off", "question_index": 5, "text": "Oh, what'd you think listening back to it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I haven't listened to that since that happened."}
{"id": "643286858", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Jake Tapper", "title": "CNN's Jake Tapper On Kellyanne Conway And Knowing When To Cut People Off", "question_index": 6, "text": ". I remember seeing that as it happened on a Sunday morning. And I thought, oh, wow. Have you ever done that before, ended an interview by saying the guest was wasting your audience's time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's even worse than I remember."}
{"id": "643286858", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Jake Tapper", "title": "CNN's Jake Tapper On Kellyanne Conway And Knowing When To Cut People Off", "question_index": 7, "text": "It seems to me what he's doing there is a strategy, you know, a deflection strategy. Instead of answering the question, he's criticizing you. He's criticizing CNN. He's criticizing fake news. And he's not answering the question at all. Do you think of that as a strategy of just, like, deflecting - trying to make you and your network seem like you're the problem?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. But I mean, I'd never had an interview like that before. I mean, that's - it's just appalling behavior. I read a tweet to him and asked him if he thought that that helped or hurt the president's c"}
{"id": "643286858", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Jake Tapper", "title": "CNN's Jake Tapper On Kellyanne Conway And Knowing When To Cut People Off", "question_index": 8, "text": "As an interviewer, I'm interested in how you handle this, when the guest won't let you speak - 'cause I think another tactic that Stephen Miller was using in that interview was to not stop talking...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Obviously, yes. I mean, a hundred percent. But then also, just the notion that a toxic environment has been created by CNN is - it's just not true. I mean - see; this is what he - this is what "}
{"id": "643286858", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Jake Tapper", "title": "CNN's Jake Tapper On Kellyanne Conway And Knowing When To Cut People Off", "question_index": 9, "text": "...To not allow you to get in a question, to not allow you to insist - in an audible way, 'cause he's talking over you - to insist that he answer the question that you asked as opposed to just hurling insults at you and your network and the media. So what goes through your mind when that's happening - about how soon to jump in, how much to try to talk over him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "643286858", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Jake Tapper", "title": "CNN's Jake Tapper On Kellyanne Conway And Knowing When To Cut People Off", "question_index": 10, "text": "Oh, you have?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first of all, what was going through my mind is, I have known Stephen Miller for years."}
{"id": "643286858", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Jake Tapper", "title": "CNN's Jake Tapper On Kellyanne Conway And Knowing When To Cut People Off", "question_index": 11, "text": "Now, I've read that Stephen Miller refused to leave the set after the interview and had to be escorted out by security. What did happen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He was a press secretary on Capitol Hill. And until that morning, I had a fine relationship with him. I mean, I have his number. I have his email. I had even defended him a few times on Twitter "}
{"id": "643286858", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Jake Tapper", "title": "CNN's Jake Tapper On Kellyanne Conway And Knowing When To Cut People Off", "question_index": 12, "text": "Talking to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He kept talking during the commercial break."}
{"id": "643286858", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Jake Tapper", "title": "CNN's Jake Tapper On Kellyanne Conway And Knowing When To Cut People Off", "question_index": 13, "text": "Trying to make what point?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "643286858", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Jake Tapper", "title": "CNN's Jake Tapper On Kellyanne Conway And Knowing When To Cut People Off", "question_index": 14, "text": "Did you release the tape of him being escorted out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "it was odd to hear him deny that. But these people lie about everything. So why wouldn't he lie about that?"}
{"id": "643286858", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Jake Tapper", "title": "CNN's Jake Tapper On Kellyanne Conway And Knowing When To Cut People Off", "question_index": 15, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded in April with Jake Tapper. He's nominated for two news and documentary Emmys, one of them is for his live interview with Kellyanne Conway. We'll play an excerpt of that interview and hear what Tapper had to say about it after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, because I don't want to be the story. I don't like being the story. And, I mean, he knows the truth. He knows that a guard escorted him out of the studio, down the elevator, through the lobby, out"}
{"id": "643286858", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Jake Tapper", "title": "CNN's Jake Tapper On Kellyanne Conway And Knowing When To Cut People Off", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jake Tapper, the anchor of CNN's weekday afternoon show \"The Lead\" and Sunday show \"State Of The Union.\" He's nominated for two news and documentary Emmys. One of them is for his live interview with Kellyanne Conway.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, because I don't want to be the story. I don't like being the story. And, I mean, he knows the truth. He knows that a guard escorted him out of the studio, down the elevator, through the lobby, out"}
{"id": "643286858", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Jake Tapper", "title": "CNN's Jake Tapper On Kellyanne Conway And Knowing When To Cut People Off", "question_index": 17, "text": "So there was a period, I think, when CNN or you in particular - you can tell me which - had decided not to book Kellyanne Conway from the Trump administration because - because why? Like, tell us that story of the brief period when she was not booked on the network.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, because I don't want to be the story. I don't like being the story. And, I mean, he knows the truth. He knows that a guard escorted him out of the studio, down the elevator, through the lobby, out"}
{"id": "643286858", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Jake Tapper", "title": "CNN's Jake Tapper On Kellyanne Conway And Knowing When To Cut People Off", "question_index": 18, "text": "Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't remember it that clearly. As I recall right now, it seemed as though there was a period where there were a number of Trump administration - Trump White House guests going out and just lying an"}
{"id": "643286858", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Jake Tapper", "title": "CNN's Jake Tapper On Kellyanne Conway And Knowing When To Cut People Off", "question_index": 19, "text": "So I want to play an interview that you did do with Kellyanne Conway. This was right after the period that we're talking about - February 7, 2017. And Kellyanne Conway is counselor to the president, who's also one of his main spokespeople on talk shows. And so earlier in this interview, you're talking about how the president had accused the press of not covering terrorism. And then you show a collage of CNN reporters from around the world covering terrorist attacks. And then you talk about the murder rates and how he's misrepresented that. So this is an excerpt of your February 7, 2017, interview with Kellyanne Conway. So this is Jake Tapper with Kellyanne Conway.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then, you know, and then I ended up booking her on \"The Lead\" in February, 2017, anyway. And we had a very, very long interview about all the lies that President Trump was telling. But, you know, "}
{"id": "643286858", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Jake Tapper", "title": "CNN's Jake Tapper On Kellyanne Conway And Knowing When To Cut People Off", "question_index": 20, "text": "Well, she goes on after that. But anyway...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Agreed. And let me just say it has to go both ways. I mean, I do, Jake. I sincerely..."}
{"id": "643286858", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Jake Tapper", "title": "CNN's Jake Tapper On Kellyanne Conway And Knowing When To Cut People Off", "question_index": 21, "text": "So I hear you trying to be very respectful during that interview and just like letting her talk and then at some point saying this can't go - this is my interpretation - hearing you say, at some point in your mind, she's trying to play out the clock, and I have to get her back on point. She's not answering the question.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Agreed, agreed. I mean, she conceded the point."}
{"id": "643286858", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Jake Tapper", "title": "CNN's Jake Tapper On Kellyanne Conway And Knowing When To Cut People Off", "question_index": 22, "text": "So again, like, the strategy of how long do you let somebody talk before reminding them that they're totally avoiding the question.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "643286858", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Jake Tapper", "title": "CNN's Jake Tapper On Kellyanne Conway And Knowing When To Cut People Off", "question_index": 23, "text": "Oh, that's really true. That's a good point.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it's completely subjective. Kellyanne Conway wanted to make a point about what she would rather be talking about. Obviously, she didn't want to talk about the fact that the president was attac"}
{"id": "643286858", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Jake Tapper", "title": "CNN's Jake Tapper On Kellyanne Conway And Knowing When To Cut People Off", "question_index": 24, "text": "Absolutely, absolutely.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You don't want the viewer to think you're a jerk. You're not letting the person talk. I mean, you know, you want to let the person give an answer. But at a certain point, you have to steer them back. "}
{"id": "643286858", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Jake Tapper", "title": "CNN's Jake Tapper On Kellyanne Conway And Knowing When To Cut People Off", "question_index": 25, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "643286858", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Jake Tapper", "title": "CNN's Jake Tapper On Kellyanne Conway And Knowing When To Cut People Off", "question_index": 26, "text": "The interview with Kellyanne Conway was supposed to last six minutes, it went for nearly 25.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But fundamentally, I mean, I just think that what we need to remember here is that Stephen Miller and Kellyanne Conway and how they behave and how they act is completely a manifestation of how the pre"}
{"id": "643286858", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Jake Tapper", "title": "CNN's Jake Tapper On Kellyanne Conway And Knowing When To Cut People Off", "question_index": 27, "text": "What was happening in your headphones during that interview? 'Cause one of the things I had to tell you is like, we're not going to commercial.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "643286858", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Jake Tapper", "title": "CNN's Jake Tapper On Kellyanne Conway And Knowing When To Cut People Off", "question_index": 28, "text": "So after your interview with Kellyanne Conway, \"Saturday Night Live\" did a sketch with Beck Bennett as you and Kate McKinnon as Kellyanne Conway. And it's a kind of \"Fatal Attraction\" spoof.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. We're not taking commercial breaks. Jeff Zucker was in the control room. He just happened to be in the control room in Washington, D.C., that day. So my executive producer was telling me just - "}
{"id": "643286858", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Jake Tapper", "title": "CNN's Jake Tapper On Kellyanne Conway And Knowing When To Cut People Off", "question_index": 29, "text": "So she's in the Glenn Close role. So you walk in the door after a day on the set at CNN. You turn on the light. And there she is waiting for you, angry that you've cut off communication with her. So first she tries to seduce you into taking her back and talking with her. When you brush her off, she takes out a kitchen knife and comes at you with the knife. Did you see the sketch in real time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "643286858", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Jake Tapper", "title": "CNN's Jake Tapper On Kellyanne Conway And Knowing When To Cut People Off", "question_index": 30, "text": "Oh, of course.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did not because I do \"State Of The Union\" on Sunday mornings."}
{"id": "643286858", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Jake Tapper", "title": "CNN's Jake Tapper On Kellyanne Conway And Knowing When To Cut People Off", "question_index": 31, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I go to bed relatively early. My wife stays up late and watches \"Saturday Night Live.\" And Beck Bennett had been doing the Jake Tapper role all season, which was - independent of the \"Fatal Attract"}
{"id": "643286858", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Jake Tapper", "title": "CNN's Jake Tapper On Kellyanne Conway And Knowing When To Cut People Off", "question_index": 32, "text": "Yeah, and I should say Kellyanne Conway's wearing like seductive lingerie in it because first she does try to seduce you into taking her back, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I - she goes, no, but you have to watch it. You have to watch it. So the first thing I noticed was that they were less generous about my hairline than they had been in the past, which I guess, you "}
{"id": "643286858", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Jake Tapper", "title": "CNN's Jake Tapper On Kellyanne Conway And Knowing When To Cut People Off", "question_index": 33, "text": "Yeah, yeah, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "..."}
{"id": "643286858", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Jake Tapper", "title": "CNN's Jake Tapper On Kellyanne Conway And Knowing When To Cut People Off", "question_index": 34, "text": "Jake Tapper recorded in April after the publication of his debut novel \"The Hellfire Club.\" He's nominated for two news and documentary Emmys. After we take a short break, we'll hear from two more Emmy nominees - Stephen Colbert, host of \"The Late Show\" on CBS, and comic W. Kamau Bell, host of CNN's \"United Shades Of America.\" I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know, in a way. But, I mean, that skit was not a huge hit in the Tapper household. But generally speaking, I think they're very funny."}
{"id": "643312139", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "'You Gotta Kind Of Like The Stress,' Says 'Late Show' Host Stephen Colbert", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. This week, we're featuring interviews with Emmy nominees. The CBS show \"The Late Show With Stephen Colbert\" is nominated for three Emmys - Outstanding Variety Talk Series, Outstanding Writing for a Variety Series and Outstanding Directing for a Variety Series. Colbert has won nine Emmys so far, six for his previous show \"The Colbert Report\" and three as a writer on \"The Daily Show\" with Jon Stewart. We're going to hear an excerpt of the interview we recorded November 3, 2016, just a few days before the election. Colbert was preparing for a live election night special. If you watched that special, you probably remember how stunned he was when Trump was declared the winner. When Colbert first took over \"The Late Show\" in 2015 following David Letterman's retirement, his opening monologue wasn't as political as it later became. Here's an excerpt from his monologue the day jury selection began on the Paul Manafort trial.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "643312139", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "'You Gotta Kind Of Like The Stress,' Says 'Late Show' Host Stephen Colbert", "question_index": 1, "text": "When you started doing \"The Late Show\" as opposed to \"The Colbert Report\" and you were able to drop \"The Colbert Report\" persona, did you know what your authentic voice was going to be, you know, what your voice is - like, the actual Stephen Colbert was going to be - 'cause you still have to have, like, a bit of a persona as an entertainer onstage.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Woo, woo, woo."}
{"id": "643312139", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "'You Gotta Kind Of Like The Stress,' Says 'Late Show' Host Stephen Colbert", "question_index": 2, "text": "What do you mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think so. I knew that it would be a little bit of a public discovery. You know, what's the - it's somebody else's joke, but life is like learning to play the violin in public. You don't know w"}
{"id": "643312139", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "'You Gotta Kind Of Like The Stress,' Says 'Late Show' Host Stephen Colbert", "question_index": 3, "text": "I felt that way as a viewer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think - well, because I was not talking about politics. I wasn't doing a monologue on the day's events when we first started. I mean, I would still talk about what was happening, but it wasn't highl"}
{"id": "643312139", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "'You Gotta Kind Of Like The Stress,' Says 'Late Show' Host Stephen Colbert", "question_index": 4, "text": "Yeah, I was really glad when you added more political satire at the top of the show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's a - yeah, there's a confessional aspect to wearing a mask - you know, the same reason why it's easier to confess behind a screen to a priest than face to face. And so by - the character was a "}
{"id": "643312139", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "'You Gotta Kind Of Like The Stress,' Says 'Late Show' Host Stephen Colbert", "question_index": 5, "text": "It seems to me one of the hard parts of doing an opening monologue is what to do when the audience is laughing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, me too. It's much more enjoyable. It's more honest, actually, 'cause it's what I consume all day."}
{"id": "643312139", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "'You Gotta Kind Of Like The Stress,' Says 'Late Show' Host Stephen Colbert", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yeah. Like, do you say something?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What to do when the audience is laughing?"}
{"id": "643312139", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "'You Gotta Kind Of Like The Stress,' Says 'Late Show' Host Stephen Colbert", "question_index": 7, "text": "Do you repeat the punchline? Do you just keep your hands in your pockets? Do you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my gosh."}
{"id": "643312139", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "'You Gotta Kind Of Like The Stress,' Says 'Late Show' Host Stephen Colbert", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, what do you do? What do I do while the audience is laughing? That is the hardest part of the job. What will I do..."}
{"id": "643312139", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "'You Gotta Kind Of Like The Stress,' Says 'Late Show' Host Stephen Colbert", "question_index": 9, "text": "No, but really, you got to do something.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...While the audience is laughing? It's such a challenge, you know? How was the show last night? It was so hard. Why? The audience laughed so much. I didn't know what to do with myself, oh."}
{"id": "643312139", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "'You Gotta Kind Of Like The Stress,' Says 'Late Show' Host Stephen Colbert", "question_index": 10, "text": "You do have to do something.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What do you do?"}
{"id": "643312139", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "'You Gotta Kind Of Like The Stress,' Says 'Late Show' Host Stephen Colbert", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Levitate. Nail your feet to the floor because you'll just fly up into the rafters."}
{"id": "643312139", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "'You Gotta Kind Of Like The Stress,' Says 'Late Show' Host Stephen Colbert", "question_index": 12, "text": "What?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What do you do? You lean into it like it's a wind. It's the greatest feeling in the world. What do you do? That's the easiest part of the job. You smile, and you're happy that they're happy. That's it"}
{"id": "643312139", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "'You Gotta Kind Of Like The Stress,' Says 'Late Show' Host Stephen Colbert", "question_index": 13, "text": "Right, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's, where do you jump back in to get to the next joke?"}
{"id": "643312139", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "'You Gotta Kind Of Like The Stress,' Says 'Late Show' Host Stephen Colbert", "question_index": 14, "text": "So you used to come in and make the nightly stage entrance doing a kick dance with your band leader, Jon Batiste. It was very manic.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "How do you ride that energy to the next joke? How then can I use what they've just given me to give them a better rhythm, a better joke the next time around? How can I slide down the front face of the"}
{"id": "643312139", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "'You Gotta Kind Of Like The Stress,' Says 'Late Show' Host Stephen Colbert", "question_index": 15, "text": "And you've taken that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "643312139", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "'You Gotta Kind Of Like The Stress,' Says 'Late Show' Host Stephen Colbert", "question_index": 16, "text": "...Down a notch. And you're not doing the kick dance anymore.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "643312139", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "'You Gotta Kind Of Like The Stress,' Says 'Late Show' Host Stephen Colbert", "question_index": 17, "text": "Can you talk about changing that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nope."}
{"id": "643312139", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "'You Gotta Kind Of Like The Stress,' Says 'Late Show' Host Stephen Colbert", "question_index": 18, "text": "That's a really big difference.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. When the show first started, I thought, well, it's a giant space. It's a Broadway stage. What kind of energy - what level of energy do I need to fill this space that is then sort of captured by "}
{"id": "643312139", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "'You Gotta Kind Of Like The Stress,' Says 'Late Show' Host Stephen Colbert", "question_index": 19, "text": "So one more question. I have taken up a lot of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And you really feel it when you're doing it. My first choice was, well, err on the side of energy. And then at a certain point I realized, well, that actually doesn't translate over the camera, "}
{"id": "643312139", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "'You Gotta Kind Of Like The Stress,' Says 'Late Show' Host Stephen Colbert", "question_index": 20, "text": "...Your time this morning.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Whatever you want."}
{"id": "643312139", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "'You Gotta Kind Of Like The Stress,' Says 'Late Show' Host Stephen Colbert", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Whatever you want."}
{"id": "643312139", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "'You Gotta Kind Of Like The Stress,' Says 'Late Show' Host Stephen Colbert", "question_index": 22, "text": "No, no, that's part of my question. That's part of my question.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "..."}
{"id": "643312139", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "'You Gotta Kind Of Like The Stress,' Says 'Late Show' Host Stephen Colbert", "question_index": 23, "text": "It's - we're recording this in the morning. You have a lot of work to do before your show airs, so...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK, yeah."}
{"id": "643312139", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "'You Gotta Kind Of Like The Stress,' Says 'Late Show' Host Stephen Colbert", "question_index": 24, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's 11:21 recording time..."}
{"id": "643312139", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "'You Gotta Kind Of Like The Stress,' Says 'Late Show' Host Stephen Colbert", "question_index": 25, "text": "So what do you have to do to compensate for the fact that you were generous enough to give us this interview?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Where I am."}
{"id": "643312139", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "'You Gotta Kind Of Like The Stress,' Says 'Late Show' Host Stephen Colbert", "question_index": 26, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Breath deeply..."}
{"id": "643312139", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "'You Gotta Kind Of Like The Stress,' Says 'Late Show' Host Stephen Colbert", "question_index": 27, "text": "Stephen Colbert recorded in 2016 just before the election. \"Late Night With Stephen Colbert\" is nominated for three Emmys. If you'd like to hear all the current nominees featured in our Emmy week series, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of interviews.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And trust my staff. And I am capable of both. And then I'm ready for whatever the fresh wave of stress is because you got to like - you got to kind of like the stress, too. I don't know how to atta"}
{"id": "643312139", "date": "2018-08-30", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "'You Gotta Kind Of Like The Stress,' Says 'Late Show' Host Stephen Colbert", "question_index": 28, "text": "Fresh AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. On interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Mooj Zadie, Thea Chaloner and Seth Kelley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And trust my staff. And I am capable of both. And then I'm ready for whatever the fresh wave of stress is because you got to like - you got to kind of like the stress, too. I don't know how to atta"}
{"id": "641555720", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Brian Tyree Henry, welcome to FRESH AIR. I want to play a scene from season one.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli in for Terry Gross. We're continuing our week-long salute to some of this year's Emmy Award nominees by featuring Brian Tyree Henry, who is up for Emmys in both "}
{"id": "641555720", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 1, "text": "And this is a scene with a guy named Zan, who's a kind of, like, parasitic...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "641555720", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 2, "text": "...Wannabe social media star who's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, Jesus. This guy."}
{"id": "641555720", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 3, "text": "...Who makes, like, mocking videos and memes of people who are better-known than he is and then takes these, like, ambush selfies with them. And after Paper Boi becomes Zan's target, and Zan does an online review of Paper Boi's recording, questioning, like, well, how authentic is he really? And does he really deal drugs? So Alfred becomes really fed up with all of us. And he tracks down Zan, finds that he's actually delivering pizzas for a living. And he gets into Zan's car, and they have this conversation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "641555720", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Alfred) Whatever, man."}
{"id": "641555720", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And there it is, I mean, in a nutshell."}
{"id": "641555720", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 6, "text": "Have you ever felt in the situation that Alfred's in - that you felt that you scared somebody at an ATM machine?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There we go."}
{"id": "641555720", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 7, "text": "So the song that puts - the rap that puts Paper Boi on the map is called \"Paper Boi.\" And we hear it in the series, but it's actually not you doing it. It's done and it was written by Stephen Glover, who's one of the show's main writers. And Stephen is the brother of Donald Glover, \"Atlanta's\" creator and star. So how come you're not doing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God, all the time. Look, I went to Yale for drama school and drama. And, you know, like, it's in New Haven. And there's something about these Ivy League schools that you have an Ivy League scho"}
{"id": "641555720", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 8, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because I didn't have to. You know what I mean?"}
{"id": "641555720", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 9, "text": "So even though it's not you, let's just play some of \"Paper Boi\" so our audience can hear it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like, when people would ask me if I could rap - you know, the character calls to be a rapper. You know what I mean? Like, it says that he raps. And as an actor, I would like to believe that, yeah, man"}
{"id": "641555720", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 10, "text": "So that's \"Paper Boi.\" That's actually done by Stephen Glover on the series \"Atlanta.\" So we were talking about how the rap recording of \"Paper Boi\" that's used in the series - that you don't actually do it - that Stephen Glover, one of the writers for the show, does it. But you actually have a terrific singing voice, as you demonstrated in an episode of \"This Is Us\" for which you were nominated for an Emmy Award. So, like, let's hear you sing, and then we'll talk.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Paper Boi, rapping) Paper Boi, Paper Boi - always about that paper, boy. If you ain't on your grind and you flexing, youse a hater, boy. Paper Boi, Paper Boi - always getting paper, boy. If you ai"}
{"id": "641555720", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 11, "text": "So that was Brian Tyree Henry singing in an episode of \"This Is Us\" in which he was a guest star. So you sound great. When did you start to sing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Ricky, singing) Mother, don't you cry. We're going to be all right. Open up your suitcase when you get there tonight. You're not alone. I'm always - always be here with you. So don't give up on me"}
{"id": "641555720", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. I guess since I was a little kid, but the recognition that I could sing didn't happen until high school. You know, like, you know, my parents had an amazing record collection growing up. I "}
{"id": "641555720", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know most people can't think back that far. But so like, you know, singing was always in my home. You know, my mother sang all the time. And it wasn't her singing to be heard. She just had a song in"}
{"id": "641555720", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 14, "text": "And I know you lost your mother two years ago, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like, I love people who have no fear. You know, like, it's a fearlessness that I think is really cool. So I never considered myself a singer because I thought singing took discipline, you know what I "}
{"id": "641555720", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 15, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So let me explain what show choir is exactly. So in my town of Fayetteville, N.C., there is this group from the predominately black high school - well, the only black high school in Fayetteville - E. "}
{"id": "641555720", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 16, "text": "You mentioned that, at one point, your mother sent you to live with your father after they'd separated, which surprised me only because I'd read how close you were with your mother. She died a couple of years ago. So I was just surprised to hear that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like, nobody was talking about this when I was in high school, but we're going to do \"Glee\" and \"Pitch Perfect\" and all this stuff. I was like, oh, that's real nice. But I was a part of that, man. And"}
{"id": "641555720", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Where you were living with her.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think she did that because she had to do that - you know what I mean? - like, because, I mean, I was literally promoted from the sixth grade. I had done all of elementary school in D.C. It was..."}
{"id": "641555720", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Brian Tyree Henry", "title": "Actor Brian Tyree Henry On Fame, Authenticity And 'Atlanta'", "question_index": 18, "text": "Brian Tyree Henry, it's just been great to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...He's just always been old. But he's just always been an old guy, set in his ways - you know. But I'll tell you this, man. I really admire and love that man beyond anything in the world. And it was "}
{"id": "643652727", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Alec Baldwin", "title": "Alec Baldwin On Career Highs And Lows And Playing A 'Larger Than Life' Trump", "question_index": 0, "text": "Alec Baldwin, welcome back to FRESH AIR. How did you start doing Donald Trump? And what stood out for you watching him that you thought you could do to caricature him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As character) Oh, my God, does he have business ties on Zorblat-9?"}
{"id": "643652727", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Alec Baldwin", "title": "Alec Baldwin On Career Highs And Lows And Playing A 'Larger Than Life' Trump", "question_index": 1, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think other people can certainly do Trump more deftly than I can. I don't think I really do the greatest impersonation of Trump, per se. But we're not doing it on film. We're doing it live on "}
{"id": "643652727", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Alec Baldwin", "title": "Alec Baldwin On Career Highs And Lows And Playing A 'Larger Than Life' Trump", "question_index": 2, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Of Trump. You know, it's a very larger-than-life thing. And I think in the back of my mind, maybe I could do him a little more precisely if we were in a different venue. But for this, you've got to"}
{"id": "643652727", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Alec Baldwin", "title": "Alec Baldwin On Career Highs And Lows And Playing A 'Larger Than Life' Trump", "question_index": 3, "text": "So Trump has negative tweeted about \"Saturday Night Live\" and about you in particular. I'll read a couple of tweets. This is October 16 at 7:14 a.m. (Reading) Watched \"Saturday Night Live...\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, he just always - you see him digging in some bin. He's, like, in a filing room looking for another word. And he'll say, (imitating Donald Trump) my son-in-law Jared is really just an amazing"}
{"id": "643652727", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Alec Baldwin", "title": "Alec Baldwin On Career Highs And Lows And Playing A 'Larger Than Life' Trump", "question_index": 4, "text": "...Hit job on me. Time to retire the boring and unfunny show. Alec Baldwin portrayal stinks. Media rigging election. December 4, 12:13 a.m. (Reading) Just tried watching \"Saturday Night Live\" - unwatchable, totally biased, not funny. And the Baldwin impersonation just can't get any worse. Sad. And you responded (reading) release your tax returns and I'll stop", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "643652727", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Alec Baldwin", "title": "Alec Baldwin On Career Highs And Lows And Playing A 'Larger Than Life' Trump", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "643652727", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Alec Baldwin", "title": "Alec Baldwin On Career Highs And Lows And Playing A 'Larger Than Life' Trump", "question_index": 6, "text": "He hasn't released them. You haven't stopped.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes."}
{"id": "643652727", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Alec Baldwin", "title": "Alec Baldwin On Career Highs And Lows And Playing A 'Larger Than Life' Trump", "question_index": 7, "text": "What was your first reaction when you realized that Trump was tweeting about your impersonation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I'm still waiting."}
{"id": "643652727", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Alec Baldwin", "title": "Alec Baldwin On Career Highs And Lows And Playing A 'Larger Than Life' Trump", "question_index": 8, "text": "So let's talk a little bit about your memoir \"Nevertheless.\" One of the things I really enjoyed learning about you is that growing up in Long Island - Massapequa, Long Island, you watched a lot of old movies on TV. I grew up in New York City in Brooklyn and watched a lot of the same movie shows that you did - \"The Late Show,\" \"The Late Late Show,\" \"The Early Show.\" What was the Sunday afternoon thing you mentioned?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is kind of absurd. Well, I mean, regardless of whether you're the subject of those tweets or one of them - 'cause all those tweets are kind of a multiple warhead, you know. He takes on the show, he"}
{"id": "643652727", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Alec Baldwin", "title": "Alec Baldwin On Career Highs And Lows And Playing A 'Larger Than Life' Trump", "question_index": 9, "text": "Yeah, \"Picture For A Sunday Afternoon.\" And then you explain in your book that you bonded with your father watching, like, the late-night old movies on TV and you bonded with your mother when you faked being sick and stayed home from school and watched daytime TV with her.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Picture For A Sunday Afternoon.\""}
{"id": "643652727", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Alec Baldwin", "title": "Alec Baldwin On Career Highs And Lows And Playing A 'Larger Than Life' Trump", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yeah, so I just thought that's so interesting that you became an actor and, like, TV, you know, like, movies and TV were ways of bonding with your parents. But - so with the movies that you saw on TV, what are the movies that you saw the most that made the biggest impression, ones that you were able to watch over and over?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Dinah Shore."}
{"id": "643652727", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Alec Baldwin", "title": "Alec Baldwin On Career Highs And Lows And Playing A 'Larger Than Life' Trump", "question_index": 11, "text": "In your memoir, you write that you learned lines from a lot of different films. So I'm going to ask you to do a passage from a film that you still remember.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess, you know, when I was young, my dad - I'm perfectly willing to see now that what I loved and what I was doing and what I was opening up my mind to was to communicate with my dad. He would come"}
{"id": "643652727", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Alec Baldwin", "title": "Alec Baldwin On Career Highs And Lows And Playing A 'Larger Than Life' Trump", "question_index": 12, "text": "Yes? Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, God."}
{"id": "643652727", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Alec Baldwin", "title": "Alec Baldwin On Career Highs And Lows And Playing A 'Larger Than Life' Trump", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'll always remember, like, just lines that I used to think were funny. You know, like, those men - I loved men in movies who they always won. And they won in some funny way. Like, there's that "}
{"id": "643652727", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Alec Baldwin", "title": "Alec Baldwin On Career Highs And Lows And Playing A 'Larger Than Life' Trump", "question_index": 14, "text": "Wait, wait, wait - I'm going to stop you. Everybody used to do impressions of Cagney. All the comics used to do impressions of Cagney when I was growing up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I just love things like that, where the guy - the hero wins. And they really were great bad guys. I mean, they were - they made the bad guys really bad, you know, really bad. And, you know, \"Treas"}
{"id": "643652727", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Alec Baldwin", "title": "Alec Baldwin On Career Highs And Lows And Playing A 'Larger Than Life' Trump", "question_index": 15, "text": "Did you have a Cagney impression?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah - when I was a kid, yeah."}
{"id": "643652727", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Alec Baldwin", "title": "Alec Baldwin On Career Highs And Lows And Playing A 'Larger Than Life' Trump", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Cagney was - well, I mean, I always get the line wrong because I went back and saw the movie \"Public Enemy.\" I think he's got the guy in the trunk of the car where the guy goes - (imitating character)"}
{"id": "643652727", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Alec Baldwin", "title": "Alec Baldwin On Career Highs And Lows And Playing A 'Larger Than Life' Trump", "question_index": 17, "text": "You all...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I thought, God, what a horrible thing to say. (Imitating James Cagney) You want air? I'll give you air. And we used to do that. I'd lay in bed next to my mother. My mother was trying to sleep. She"}
{"id": "643652727", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Alec Baldwin", "title": "Alec Baldwin On Career Highs And Lows And Playing A 'Larger Than Life' Trump", "question_index": 18, "text": "You also used to watch \"Chiller Theater\" when you were growing up, which was the Saturday night late-night monster movie...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Lie still."}
{"id": "643652727", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Alec Baldwin", "title": "Alec Baldwin On Career Highs And Lows And Playing A 'Larger Than Life' Trump", "question_index": 19, "text": "...That Zacherley hosted. And my older brother would watch that, and I was allowed to stay up for a few minutes of it. And it terrified me. I fell in love with monster movies, you know, 'cause the things that really scare you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Chiller,\" yeah."}
{"id": "643652727", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Alec Baldwin", "title": "Alec Baldwin On Career Highs And Lows And Playing A 'Larger Than Life' Trump", "question_index": 20, "text": "...Then you fall in love with afterwards. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "643652727", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Alec Baldwin", "title": "Alec Baldwin On Career Highs And Lows And Playing A 'Larger Than Life' Trump", "question_index": 21, "text": "Yeah, what really scared you when you were young? Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Lugosi, all those movies. Well, Lugosi..."}
{"id": "643652727", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Alec Baldwin", "title": "Alec Baldwin On Career Highs And Lows And Playing A 'Larger Than Life' Trump", "question_index": 22, "text": "I love that", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, \"Dracula.\" I'd watch \"Dracula\" 50 times. (Imitating Bela Lugosi) Listen to them, children of the night. What music they make, he'd say."}
{"id": "643652727", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Alec Baldwin", "title": "Alec Baldwin On Career Highs And Lows And Playing A 'Larger Than Life' Trump", "question_index": 23, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, \"Dracula.\" I'd watch \"Dracula\" 50 times. (Imitating Bela Lugosi) Listen to them, children of the night. What music they make, he'd say."}
{"id": "643652727", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Alec Baldwin", "title": "Alec Baldwin On Career Highs And Lows And Playing A 'Larger Than Life' Trump", "question_index": 24, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then - love that one, and I love - my favorite line - Matthew Broderick and I always regale each other with our Claude Rains line readings from \"Invisible Man\" because we're \"Invisible Man\" junkie"}
{"id": "643652727", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Alec Baldwin", "title": "Alec Baldwin On Career Highs And Lows And Playing A 'Larger Than Life' Trump", "question_index": 25, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Because he says that to his enemy in the film. And the very first movie that I watched with my dad that I was - that made me an addict - was we would watch \"Million Dollar Movie.\" And \"Sorry, Wrong"}
{"id": "643652727", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Alec Baldwin", "title": "Alec Baldwin On Career Highs And Lows And Playing A 'Larger Than Life' Trump", "question_index": 26, "text": "So you grew up in Massapequa, Long Island, and - you point out - not the affluent part. There were two high schools. Your father taught at the one where the more prosperous families sent their kids, and you went to the other one. Your father taught history and economics. He coached football and riflery. He chaperoned dances, supervised weekend recreation programs, directed one of the school district's summer camp programs. And you say he was strict with you because he'd seen what happens to kids who go off the track and who start drinking or using drugs. So in what way was he strict with you?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview with actor Alec Baldwin. He's nominated this year for a guest actor Emmy Award for his portrayal of President Donald Trump on \"Saturday Night Liv"}
{"id": "643652727", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Alec Baldwin", "title": "Alec Baldwin On Career Highs And Lows And Playing A 'Larger Than Life' Trump", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my dad grew up in Brooklyn. And I think my dad just, you know, he saw a tough part of Brooklyn. He played football at Boys High. He went to Syracuse and played football, and he was around some p"}
{"id": "643652727", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Alec Baldwin", "title": "Alec Baldwin On Career Highs And Lows And Playing A 'Larger Than Life' Trump", "question_index": 28, "text": "Did he ever use the threats? Did he ever...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was just terrified. I mean, that's what - other people who we grew up with, those dads had other things to withhold from their kids to control them. You can't use the boat this weekend. I'm going to"}
{"id": "643652727", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Alec Baldwin", "title": "Alec Baldwin On Career Highs And Lows And Playing A 'Larger Than Life' Trump", "question_index": 29, "text": "How did you decide to pursue acting in the first place? You were interested in politics. You ran for the president of George Washington University when you were a student there. You lost. And then it seems like a big switch from politics and history to acting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, there were times my dad would, like, you know, grab you by the shirt and, like, slam you up against the wall when you were, like, 15. That was a different generation. I mean, my dad wasn't som"}
{"id": "643652727", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Alec Baldwin", "title": "Alec Baldwin On Career Highs And Lows And Playing A 'Larger Than Life' Trump", "question_index": 30, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that, you know, the year ahead of me was kind of a gut year, as they used to say. I don't know if they use that term now. But I had done all my hard classes in my sophomore and junior ye"}
{"id": "643652727", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Alec Baldwin", "title": "Alec Baldwin On Career Highs And Lows And Playing A 'Larger Than Life' Trump", "question_index": 31, "text": "Why did they say audition for the acting - like, what evidence was there that you had any...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And she did. And I go to visit a friend of mine. She says, why don't you audition for the acting program? I auditioned for the program. And I think, because I was..."}
{"id": "643652727", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Alec Baldwin", "title": "Alec Baldwin On Career Highs And Lows And Playing A 'Larger Than Life' Trump", "question_index": 32, "text": "Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would hang out with them, and they'd say, oh, you're so funny. And, you're so cheery."}
{"id": "643652727", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Alec Baldwin", "title": "Alec Baldwin On Career Highs And Lows And Playing A 'Larger Than Life' Trump", "question_index": 33, "text": "Were you doing impressions for them, too, of your favorite movie lines?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And you're such an animated person."}
{"id": "643652727", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Alec Baldwin", "title": "Alec Baldwin On Career Highs And Lows And Playing A 'Larger Than Life' Trump", "question_index": 34, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would do - yeah. Air? You want air?"}
{"id": "643652727", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Alec Baldwin", "title": "Alec Baldwin On Career Highs And Lows And Playing A 'Larger Than Life' Trump", "question_index": 35, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'll give you air."}
{"id": "643652727", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Alec Baldwin", "title": "Alec Baldwin On Career Highs And Lows And Playing A 'Larger Than Life' Trump", "question_index": 36, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Whatever you were doing, your shtick. And then the next thing you know, a friend of mine, who was at NYU, her roommate was in the acting program. I went to visit my friend, and her roommate said, my G"}
{"id": "643652727", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Alec Baldwin", "title": "Alec Baldwin On Career Highs And Lows And Playing A 'Larger Than Life' Trump", "question_index": 37, "text": "Just one more question. I haven't heard you as the announcer of the New York Philharmonic radio broadcasts. I know you fell in love with classical music being stuck in traffic jams in LA and listening to the radio. Do you do, like, an announcer voice, the kind of voice you grew up with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I moved there, and I said to myself, I'll do this for a year - one year only. I'll study. And if I get any kind of encouragement that I might have a career in this, I'll do it. And if I don't, I'm"}
{"id": "643652727", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Alec Baldwin", "title": "Alec Baldwin On Career Highs And Lows And Playing A 'Larger Than Life' Trump", "question_index": 38, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. The guy that was the booth announcer, Robert Malley (ph), who was on the WOR booth announcer - they'd have the guy live in the booth in case there was a technical difficulty in the pre-digital ag"}
{"id": "643652727", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Alec Baldwin", "title": "Alec Baldwin On Career Highs And Lows And Playing A 'Larger Than Life' Trump", "question_index": 39, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was reading it going what the - Christoph. I'd say the Berlioz Symphonie fantastique Christoph von Dohnanyi conducts the New York Philharmonic. And I always pop the word New York 'cause I'm marketin"}
{"id": "643652727", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Alec Baldwin", "title": "Alec Baldwin On Career Highs And Lows And Playing A 'Larger Than Life' Trump", "question_index": 40, "text": "Alec Baldwin, thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm a pitch man. I'm a pitch man. Anyway, thank you so much."}
{"id": "643652727", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Alec Baldwin", "title": "Alec Baldwin On Career Highs And Lows And Playing A 'Larger Than Life' Trump", "question_index": 41, "text": "I'm so - thank you for doing it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I love your show. Thank you for having me."}
{"id": "643659665", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Paul Taylor", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Choreographer Paul Taylor", "question_index": 0, "text": "I think probably more men than women too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do think that there's something to be said for starting late. A lot of people do, more than you'd expect, perhaps."}
{"id": "643659665", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Paul Taylor", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Choreographer Paul Taylor", "question_index": 1, "text": "You danced with Martha Graham for several years, and I think she was a mentor to you as well as the head of the company. What were some of the things you felt that you learned from her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. Yeah. I think you're - you've developed as a person a little more. You know, a lot of ballet children are sent very, very early. And they go through their childhood and their teens and e"}
{"id": "643659665", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Paul Taylor", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Choreographer Paul Taylor", "question_index": 2, "text": "One of your first dances got you a lot of attention back in 1957 - was a series of postures that you did to basically the telephone time check. And a lot of people walked out on the performance. One review was a blank column in response to your minimalist dance...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And it's a very good kind of brainwashing, and we're made aware of the importance that dance can be and a dancer and an almost religious attitude towards dancing."}
{"id": "643659665", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Paul Taylor", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Choreographer Paul Taylor", "question_index": 3, "text": "Oh", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "very long."}
{"id": "643659665", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Paul Taylor", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Choreographer Paul Taylor", "question_index": 4, "text": ". What were your intentions with that dance?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "very long."}
{"id": "643659665", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Paul Taylor", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Choreographer Paul Taylor", "question_index": 5, "text": "So you feel that, since then, your dances have been more accessible to audiences?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "raised."}
{"id": "643659665", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Paul Taylor", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Choreographer Paul Taylor", "question_index": 6, "text": "Let me quote something that you say in your autobiography. You write a letter to someone giving them career advice. You write, both a dancer's stage minutes and his career days are numbered, and dancers have to accept this chilling fact. Sadly, just as their talent and experience begin to mature, their technique and their poor temporal bodies have already slid over the hump. Did you think about those things when you were still dancing? Did you feel like you were cherishing your moment?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "understandable. I think of dance like poetry. I mean, there has to be a kind of little air left somewhere for the reader or the watcher to bring what - their own experience to."}
{"id": "643659665", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Paul Taylor", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Choreographer Paul Taylor", "question_index": 7, "text": "You had broken an ankle, and then another ankle started splintering. And in - I think it was your last performance on stage, you ended up performing in a pool of blood from your shattered ankle.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I felt it was a race against the clock. I was always aware of that, especially starting late as I did."}
{"id": "643659665", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Paul Taylor", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Choreographer Paul Taylor", "question_index": 8, "text": "Do you feel like you needed for that to happen in order to stop dancing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "643659665", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Paul Taylor", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Choreographer Paul Taylor", "question_index": 9, "text": "What are - are there certain movements that the female body can do and the male body can't, or vice versa, that you keep in mind when you're choreographing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And the - if I'd been in better mental and physical health, I certainly could have gone on. But after I'd stopped awhile and took the time that I needed to recuperate, the urge to dance was no longe"}
{"id": "643659665", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Paul Taylor", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Choreographer Paul Taylor", "question_index": 10, "text": "The head of a company is almost like a parental figure and a spiritual adviser to the dancers. And you wrote that, in your early years, you confessed your confusion to Martha Graham about your sexual preference. And you asked her for advice. And I wonder if you encourage dancers to ask you about things as personal as that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "all evening. There's structural differences. Women are usually a lot more stretched in pelvic area than men are, that men are tighter. The men can usually jump higher. There are - you know, there are "}
{"id": "643659665", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Paul Taylor", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Choreographer Paul Taylor", "question_index": 11, "text": "Some dancers now who have top companies are alumni of your group. And I'm thinking of Twyla Tharp, Dan Wagoner. Do you ever feel competitive with", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No, I don't. And I don't ask personal questions about their lives. If they come, of course, and I can - I'm glad to listen. But they - their personal lives, the dancers in my company, they keep pr"}
{"id": "643659665", "date": "2018-08-31", "guest": "Paul Taylor", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Choreographer Paul Taylor", "question_index": 12, "text": "them, you know, that your children are now competing with you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No, I don't. And I don't ask personal questions about their lives. If they come, of course, and I can - I'm glad to listen. But they - their personal lives, the dancers in my company, they keep pr"}
{"id": "643673530", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Issa Rae", "title": "'Awkward' And 'Insecure' Get To The Root Of Writer Issa Rae's Humor", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today we conclude our series of interviews with current Emmy nominees. The ceremony is Monday, September 17. We start today's show with Issa Rae, the creator and star of the HBO series \"Insecure.\" She's nominated for outstanding lead actress in a comedy series. \"Insecure\" echoes the title of her memoir and Web series, which were both called \"The Misadventures Of Awkward Black Girl.\" In all those works she's dealt with issues of identity and feelings of not fitting in, things she dealt with all the time when she was growing up. She was one of the few black kids in her high school in Maryland. But when her family moved to South LA, she wasn't considered black enough. She's also lived in Senegal, where her father is from, where she was the only American in her school. Let's start with a clip from the current season of \"Insecure,\" Season 3. Issa and her boyfriend have broken up, and she's staying with her ex-boyfriend Daniel. She wants to get her own apartment but can't afford to. So she goes to the office of her accountant friend, Kelli, hoping for financial advice. Issa gives Kelli some financial papers, including her credit report, which is bad.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "643673530", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Issa Rae", "title": "'Awkward' And 'Insecure' Get To The Root Of Writer Issa Rae's Humor", "question_index": 1, "text": "In this season of \"Insecure,\" Issa has become even more disillusioned with her job at a nonprofit which works with predominantly African-American schools mentoring and coaching students. When I spoke with her in 2016, we played this clip from the first episode in which Issa's talking to a class of junior high students.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Kelli) Not even a little bit?"}
{"id": "643673530", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Issa Rae", "title": "'Awkward' And 'Insecure' Get To The Root Of Writer Issa Rae's Humor", "question_index": 2, "text": "That's Issa Rae from the first episode of her series \"Insecure.\" Issa Rae, I love the series. Welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Issa Dee) That's OK. And tell your dad that black women aren't bitter. They're just tired of being expected to settle for less. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #3: (As character) Her outfit settled for less."}
{"id": "643673530", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Issa Rae", "title": "'Awkward' And 'Insecure' Get To The Root Of Writer Issa Rae's Humor", "question_index": 3, "text": "You really set the tone in that scene. I mean, you work for this nonprofit that - you're the only African-American at that organization. But when you get in front of, like, the African-American students - and I forget if it's junior high or high school...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much, Terry."}
{"id": "643673530", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Issa Rae", "title": "'Awkward' And 'Insecure' Get To The Root Of Writer Issa Rae's Humor", "question_index": 4, "text": "Yeah. So they just start, like, mocking you, you know, like, your hair, the way you speak, that your clothes -", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Junior high."}
{"id": "643673530", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Issa Rae", "title": "'Awkward' And 'Insecure' Get To The Root Of Writer Issa Rae's Humor", "question_index": 5, "text": "they don't like your clothes. You're not married", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Junior high."}
{"id": "643673530", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Issa Rae", "title": "'Awkward' And 'Insecure' Get To The Root Of Writer Issa Rae's Humor", "question_index": 6, "text": ". So I just think it's so interesting that you start the series off with discomfort coming at you from both the white people that you work with and the black kids that you're trying to help.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Junior high."}
{"id": "643673530", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Issa Rae", "title": "'Awkward' And 'Insecure' Get To The Root Of Writer Issa Rae's Humor", "question_index": 7, "text": "So the things that your character is mocked for by the junior high school kids - where do those lines come from? Did kids in junior high say that to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, we wanted to kind of paint that this character is in between two worlds and is just in a constant state of discomfort. And, you know, that is kind of reflected in the title of the series. But ju"}
{"id": "643673530", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Issa Rae", "title": "'Awkward' And 'Insecure' Get To The Root Of Writer Issa Rae's Humor", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Pretty much everything aside from the why aren't you married part I've been asked. Actually, in my adult life I've been asked, why aren't you married? What am I talking about?"}
{"id": "643673530", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Issa Rae", "title": "'Awkward' And 'Insecure' Get To The Root Of Writer Issa Rae's Humor", "question_index": 9, "text": "So let's hear a scene at work. So this is from the start of the series where you're describing the nonprofit that you work at, which is called We Got Y'all. And you're talking about the organization. And as you are doing this kind of voice-over thing, we see images of where you work, and we see your white boss wearing a dashiki. The office is full of posters of Martin Luther King and Beyonce and a photo of the boss with President Obama. And at the end of this voice-over, it cuts to you. And you're in front of a mirror. And you're rapping in front of the mirror. In the series, this is the equivalent sometimes of your voice-over narrative - you know what I mean? Like, you're talking to yourself, but you're doing it in rap. So that's how the scene ends, but it starts with a voice-over.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But all of those questions those kids asked I've been asked at some point in time. So that was all truth. And we just wanted to have her face all of those questions at once in a very irritating way."}
{"id": "643673530", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Issa Rae", "title": "'Awkward' And 'Insecure' Get To The Root Of Writer Issa Rae's Humor", "question_index": 10, "text": "OK, and you rap much better than that later...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Issa Dee) I don't know what that means. I know what that [expletive] means. But being aggressively passive is what I do best. I used to keep a journal to vent. Now I just write raps. (Rapping) Go "}
{"id": "643673530", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Issa Rae", "title": "'Awkward' And 'Insecure' Get To The Root Of Writer Issa Rae's Humor", "question_index": 11, "text": "...Later in the series.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Issa Dee) I don't know what that means. I know what that [expletive] means. But being aggressively passive is what I do best. I used to keep a journal to vent. Now I just write raps. (Rapping) Go "}
{"id": "643673530", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Issa Rae", "title": "'Awkward' And 'Insecure' Get To The Root Of Writer Issa Rae's Humor", "question_index": 12, "text": "Yes. In my opinion, yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Do I?"}
{"id": "643673530", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Issa Rae", "title": "'Awkward' And 'Insecure' Get To The Root Of Writer Issa Rae's Humor", "question_index": 13, "text": "So part of this series is about, you know, being the person who you think is, like, the token black person at work. And your best friend is the only African-American in the law firm where she works. She's a lawyer. So did you have - I mean, being an artist, like, you're working on TV shows. And this is, like, your own show. It's, like, your creation. Did you work in a nonprofit where you felt similar to how your character does?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Do I?"}
{"id": "643673530", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Issa Rae", "title": "'Awkward' And 'Insecure' Get To The Root Of Writer Issa Rae's Humor", "question_index": 14, "text": "So let me ask you about the Web title \"Awkward Black Girl.\" That's how you saw yourself for a long time. Where did the awkward part come in - which I imagine is the same kind of part that your series takes its name from, \"Insecure.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. I've worked in a couple of nonprofit settings. I've worked in - briefly in the corporate world and have definitely been the sole person of color, the sole black person. And for me, with th"}
{"id": "643673530", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Issa Rae", "title": "'Awkward' And 'Insecure' Get To The Root Of Writer Issa Rae's Humor", "question_index": 15, "text": "So what made you think that the parts of your life that made you feel awkward and insecure you could claim as an identity and then use that to your advantage and create a character who would be kind of, like, funny and relatable and everything, and that - so you could turn what you perceived as, like, your weakness into a strength?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, well, I was sitting on my bed in New York one day and just thinking about - just having a reflective moment and trying to figure out what I wanted to do and what my issues were and just was writ"}
{"id": "643673530", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Issa Rae", "title": "'Awkward' And 'Insecure' Get To The Root Of Writer Issa Rae's Humor", "question_index": 16, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded with Issa Rae, creator and star of the HBO series \"Insecure.\" She's nominated for an Emmy for outstanding lead actress in a comedy series. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, for me it came from watching shows like \"Seinfeld\" and \"Curb\" - \"Curb Your Enthusiasm\" - and even \"30 Rock\" and just identifying with a very specific sense of humor that those shows had but also"}
{"id": "643673530", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Issa Rae", "title": "'Awkward' And 'Insecure' Get To The Root Of Writer Issa Rae's Humor", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Issa Rae, creator and star of the HBO series \"Insecure.\" She spent part of her childhood in Maryland, where she was one of the few black students in her elementary school. When she moved to LA, she went to a predominantly black junior high school. She told me it was a bit of a culture shock.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, for me it came from watching shows like \"Seinfeld\" and \"Curb\" - \"Curb Your Enthusiasm\" - and even \"30 Rock\" and just identifying with a very specific sense of humor that those shows had but also"}
{"id": "643673530", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Issa Rae", "title": "'Awkward' And 'Insecure' Get To The Root Of Writer Issa Rae's Humor", "question_index": 18, "text": "That's hilarious.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was just because I was watching a lot of television. So I watched shows like \"Saved By The Bell.\" Even though that wasn't set in LA, I just thought that would be my LA experience."}
{"id": "643673530", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Issa Rae", "title": "'Awkward' And 'Insecure' Get To The Root Of Writer Issa Rae's Humor", "question_index": 19, "text": "What was your father's attitude to the whole American thing about what it means to be black and are you black enough and are you authentic and all that? 'Cause coming from Africa, I'm not sure whether all of that would have made any sense to him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And just was excited to be able to go to junior high and have lockers. Like, there was just something sexy and alluring about lockers to me. And there was a culture shock in that way, that I was not t"}
{"id": "643673530", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Issa Rae", "title": "'Awkward' And 'Insecure' Get To The Root Of Writer Issa Rae's Humor", "question_index": 20, "text": "You write that the first time in your life you ever felt beautiful was when you went back to Senegal when you were in your sophomore year of high school and that that was the first time you had boys and men pining after you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It didn't. And he didn't really subscribe to those notions. I mean, he understood that there are obstacles that black people faced, but in his mind, those are obstacles that you can overcome just by w"}
{"id": "643673530", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Issa Rae", "title": "'Awkward' And 'Insecure' Get To The Root Of Writer Issa Rae's Humor", "question_index": 21, "text": "Were you considered more beautiful in Senegal than you were in LA?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It didn't. And he didn't really subscribe to those notions. I mean, he understood that there are obstacles that black people faced, but in his mind, those are obstacles that you can overcome just by w"}
{"id": "643673530", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Issa Rae", "title": "'Awkward' And 'Insecure' Get To The Root Of Writer Issa Rae's Humor", "question_index": 22, "text": "So when you were a kid and watching TV and not exactly seeing yourself represented, you were sending in scripts at a really young age, like, spec scripts. Like, what kind of kid were you", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think when you're in a country of people who look like you and have your features and who are married to people with your features and attracted to, it makes it a lot easier. But, I mean, I ju"}
{"id": "643673530", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Issa Rae", "title": "'Awkward' And 'Insecure' Get To The Root Of Writer Issa Rae's Humor", "question_index": 23, "text": "that you were sending in scripts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think when you're in a country of people who look like you and have your features and who are married to people with your features and attracted to, it makes it a lot easier. But, I mean, I ju"}
{"id": "643673530", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Issa Rae", "title": "'Awkward' And 'Insecure' Get To The Root Of Writer Issa Rae's Humor", "question_index": 24, "text": "What did you learn by studying that script so carefully?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean - I will say that - well, when I was a kid, I did have - like, the '90s gave me everything. You know, we had \"Fresh Prince.\" We had \"Living Single.\" We had, you know, all these shows. And"}
{"id": "643673530", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Issa Rae", "title": "'Awkward' And 'Insecure' Get To The Root Of Writer Issa Rae's Humor", "question_index": 25, "text": "How did you know who to send the scripts to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, three-act structure, just how - obviously, it was a shooting script so I didn't understand that at the time. So there were so much - there was a lot of lingo that I just didn't get. But for me"}
{"id": "643673530", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Issa Rae", "title": "'Awkward' And 'Insecure' Get To The Root Of Writer Issa Rae's Humor", "question_index": 26, "text": "Wait. You wrote to the president", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My grandmother was great about, you know, helping me to research. She was very computer-savvy. And I remember, you know, typing the scripts on her Mac computer and her teaching me how to copyright the"}
{"id": "643673530", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Issa Rae", "title": "'Awkward' And 'Insecure' Get To The Root Of Writer Issa Rae's Humor", "question_index": 27, "text": "of the network?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My grandmother was great about, you know, helping me to research. She was very computer-savvy. And I remember, you know, typing the scripts on her Mac computer and her teaching me how to copyright the"}
{"id": "643673530", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Issa Rae", "title": "'Awkward' And 'Insecure' Get To The Root Of Writer Issa Rae's Humor", "question_index": 28, "text": "From children, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. But, of course, from NBC being like, hey, thanks for submitting, but we don't take unsolicited scripts."}
{"id": "643673530", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Issa Rae", "title": "'Awkward' And 'Insecure' Get To The Root Of Writer Issa Rae's Humor", "question_index": 29, "text": "So I listen to a lot of voices", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. From babies, yeah."}
{"id": "643673530", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Issa Rae", "title": "'Awkward' And 'Insecure' Get To The Root Of Writer Issa Rae's Humor", "question_index": 30, "text": "in hosting the show. And I love your voice. You have a beautiful voice. It's so, like, deep and resonant and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. From babies, yeah."}
{"id": "643673530", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Issa Rae", "title": "'Awkward' And 'Insecure' Get To The Root Of Writer Issa Rae's Humor", "question_index": 31, "text": "So when you were like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "643673530", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Issa Rae", "title": "'Awkward' And 'Insecure' Get To The Root Of Writer Issa Rae's Humor", "question_index": 32, "text": "...How old were you when it started to get that kind of, you know, depth, that resonance? You didn't have that in high school, did you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "643673530", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Issa Rae", "title": "'Awkward' And 'Insecure' Get To The Root Of Writer Issa Rae's Humor", "question_index": 33, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Geez. I don't know. I don't - I do not know. It's so funny - this generation - I was saying, we're so used to seeing ourselves and listening to ourselves now that it's just not a big deal. But I remem"}
{"id": "643673530", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Issa Rae", "title": "'Awkward' And 'Insecure' Get To The Root Of Writer Issa Rae's Humor", "question_index": 34, "text": "It's interesting because your voice conveys a certain confidence that you say that you've lacked in real life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, you know, now I just don't even think about it. So I've always thought I had a deep voice since high school, middle school, but I have no idea. But thank you."}
{"id": "643673530", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Issa Rae", "title": "'Awkward' And 'Insecure' Get To The Root Of Writer Issa Rae's Humor", "question_index": 35, "text": "(Laughing).", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's helpful."}
{"id": "643673530", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Issa Rae", "title": "'Awkward' And 'Insecure' Get To The Root Of Writer Issa Rae's Humor", "question_index": 36, "text": "Issa Rae, it's been great to talk with you. Congratulations on your series.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's very helpful. Well, that might be why people don't think that, I mean - people are always like, oh, it's so funny that you say that you're awkward 'cause you're not. And I'm like, 'cause I fool"}
{"id": "643673530", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Issa Rae", "title": "'Awkward' And 'Insecure' Get To The Root Of Writer Issa Rae's Humor", "question_index": 37, "text": "Issa Rae created and stars in the HBO series \"Insecure.\" Our interview was recorded in 2016. She's nominated for an Emmy for outstanding lead actress in a comedy series. After a break, we'll feature interviews with two more nominees, Trevor Noah, host of \"The Daily Show,\" and Peter Morgan, creator of the series \"The Crown.\" I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, it's been an honor. Thank you so, so much."}
{"id": "643677929", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah Says He Grew Up 'In The Shadow Of A Giant' (His Mom)", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're going to conclude our series of Emmy nominees with an interview with Trevor Noah, the host of \"The Daily Show,\" which is nominated for two Emmys, including outstanding variety talk series. The show's been on a break, but here's a clip from the August 15 episode.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "643677929", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah Says He Grew Up 'In The Shadow Of A Giant' (His Mom)", "question_index": 1, "text": "I spoke with Trevor Noah in November 2016 after the publication of his memoir \"Born A Crime.\" And he literally was. He's South African, the son of a black mother and white father. When Noah was born in 1984, during the apartheid era, it was illegal for a black person and a white person to have sexual relations. As you can imagine, this led to complications for Noah and for his mother, who he lived with. A film adaptation of the memoir is being made starring Lupita Nyong'o as the young Trevor Noah's mother. Trevor Noah speaks six different languages, including several African languages. His mother speaks several languages, too. I asked him to read a passage from his memoir about how he and his mother used language to navigate difficult situations.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Sounds like to me - it's like, Mr. President, we need to wrap this up. You'll be late for your 12:30 outburst. Come on."}
{"id": "643677929", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah Says He Grew Up 'In The Shadow Of A Giant' (His Mom)", "question_index": 2, "text": "That's Trevor Noah reading from his new memoir, \"Born A Crime.\" I like that passage so much in part because when I hear you on \"The Daily Show\" and in some of your stand-up comedy that I've heard on recording, you do accents and voices so well. Like, you can mimic other people really well. And it seems like that's something you learned to do out of self-preservation when you were young.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) Living with my mom, I saw how she used language to cross boundaries, handle situations, navigate the world. We were in a shop once, and the shopkeeper right in front of us turned to a securi"}
{"id": "643677929", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah Says He Grew Up 'In The Shadow Of A Giant' (His Mom)", "question_index": 3, "text": "You know what I think? Yeah, I think people think that people with accents that are a little hard to understand must be stupid...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, definitely. I think it was something I inherited from my mother who learned to do it. You know, I, like a baby duckling, was merely mimicking the survival traits that my mother possessed. And I "}
{"id": "643677929", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah Says He Grew Up 'In The Shadow Of A Giant' (His Mom)", "question_index": 4, "text": "...Because you don't understand what they're saying.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "643677929", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah Says He Grew Up 'In The Shadow Of A Giant' (His Mom)", "question_index": 5, "text": "And, therefore, they're not smart.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "643677929", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah Says He Grew Up 'In The Shadow Of A Giant' (His Mom)", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That's - I've seen that everywhere. I've seen that everywhere. People, you know - people make jokes about that. And that was funny. When I first came to the U.S. - because I do accents. And I've"}
{"id": "643677929", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah Says He Grew Up 'In The Shadow Of A Giant' (His Mom)", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I have friends of almost every single ethnicity. And I would mimic them. And when I came to the U.S., I remember one day we're at \"The Daily Show,\" and I mimicked my Chinese friend. And the guys a"}
{"id": "643677929", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah Says He Grew Up 'In The Shadow Of A Giant' (His Mom)", "question_index": 8, "text": "We're listening to my 2016 interview with Trevor Noah, the host of \"The Daily Show,\" which is nominated for two Emmys. We'll hear more as our Emmy series concludes after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's really racist. You shouldn't do that. And I said, what do you mean, it's racist? They said, oh, you can't do a Chinese accent. That's - and I said, I'm not doing a Chinese accent. I'm doing my "}
{"id": "643677929", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah Says He Grew Up 'In The Shadow Of A Giant' (His Mom)", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Trevor Noah, host of \"The Daily Show,\" which is nominated for two Emmys. We spoke in 2016 after his memoir was published. He speaks several languages, is a gifted mimic and can do lots of different accents. When we left off, we were talking about how the way you speak affects how other people judge you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's really racist. You shouldn't do that. And I said, what do you mean, it's racist? They said, oh, you can't do a Chinese accent. That's - and I said, I'm not doing a Chinese accent. I'm doing my "}
{"id": "643677929", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah Says He Grew Up 'In The Shadow Of A Giant' (His Mom)", "question_index": 10, "text": "One other thing about language - I found this amazing in your book - that you watched American TV shows, but they were broadcast in different languages. But if you wanted to hear it in the original American English, you could simulcast it on the radio.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's really racist. You shouldn't do that. And I said, what do you mean, it's racist? They said, oh, you can't do a Chinese accent. That's - and I said, I'm not doing a Chinese accent. I'm doing my "}
{"id": "643677929", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah Says He Grew Up 'In The Shadow Of A Giant' (His Mom)", "question_index": 11, "text": "So you sometimes did that. But what was your reaction when you heard the programs in their actual original voices?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "643677929", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah Says He Grew Up 'In The Shadow Of A Giant' (His Mom)", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, they - sometimes it was mind-blowing. There were some characters that I knew of - like, I remember for most of my life, I grew up, and \"Knight Rider\" was - you know, David Hasselhoff was a Dutch c"}
{"id": "643677929", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah Says He Grew Up 'In The Shadow Of A Giant' (His Mom)", "question_index": 13, "text": "Do you find yourself code-switching in the U.S.?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...In my world. I guess in some ways, he still is today. But yeah, it was weird for me because there were certain characters who I had ideas of. Again, I came to realize the power and the importance o"}
{"id": "643677929", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah Says He Grew Up 'In The Shadow Of A Giant' (His Mom)", "question_index": 14, "text": "So one more thing - I'm thinking, like, when you took over \"The Daily Show\" after Jon Stewart left, there was a sense of, OK, we have a biracial president; now we have a biracial host of \"The Daily Show.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do. I do definitely, depending on where I am. And code-switching is fun for me. You know, I don't even do it intentionally. I just find, speaking to one person, I change a few words; I change my ton"}
{"id": "643677929", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah Says He Grew Up 'In The Shadow Of A Giant' (His Mom)", "question_index": 15, "text": "You know, like - you know, so, like, there's this kind of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do. I do definitely, depending on where I am. And code-switching is fun for me. You know, I don't even do it intentionally. I just find, speaking to one person, I change a few words; I change my ton"}
{"id": "643677929", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah Says He Grew Up 'In The Shadow Of A Giant' (His Mom)", "question_index": 16, "text": "Both half-African, exactly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Both half-African. What are the chances?"}
{"id": "643677929", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah Says He Grew Up 'In The Shadow Of A Giant' (His Mom)", "question_index": 17, "text": "So there's this - some kind of like, he's not American, but there's this simpatico, you know, with, like, the moment that we're living in politically. And now, like, things are really shifting politically. And I still think there's this sense of like, you have this sense of the times, but it's coming from a different part of you than...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "643677929", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah Says He Grew Up 'In The Shadow Of A Giant' (His Mom)", "question_index": 18, "text": "...You know - would you talk to that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "643677929", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah Says He Grew Up 'In The Shadow Of A Giant' (His Mom)", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's interesting - it's funny that you just mentioned that. I never thought of it like that before, that simpatico. I feel like it's almost fitting - isn't it? - that when there was a half-black, half"}
{"id": "643677929", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah Says He Grew Up 'In The Shadow Of A Giant' (His Mom)", "question_index": 20, "text": "Trevor Noah, recorded in 2016. \"The Daily Show With Trevor Noah\" is nominated for two Emmys. And that concludes our series of interviews with Emmy nominees. You can catch up on the entire series on our podcast. The award ceremony is Monday, September 17. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, my guest will be Khalida Brohi, who grew up in a tribal region of Pakistan. Her mother was forced into marriage at the age of 9. Khalida's cousin was the victim of an honor killing. Khalida was the first girl in her village to go to school. Her education made her realize that girls and women should no longer accept this kind of treatment and should insist on their rights. She's written a memoir about her life and her work as a women's rights activist. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Half-white, African man when he's in the White House. So I feel like that actually worked out. I never thought of that."}
{"id": "643677929", "date": "2018-09-03", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah Says He Grew Up 'In The Shadow Of A Giant' (His Mom)", "question_index": 21, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Half-white, African man when he's in the White House. So I feel like that actually worked out. I never thought of that."}
{"id": "645198341", "date": "2018-09-06", "guest": "Norm Eisen", "title": "Obama's Former Ethics Czar Discusses Trump, And The Global Threat To Democracy", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. You may know my guest Norm Eisen as President Obama's former ethics czar who teamed up with Richard Painter, President George W. Bush's former ethics czar, to call attention to possible ethics violations by candidate and then President Donald Trump. Eisen is a founding member and current chair of the board of CREW, Citizens for Ethics and Responsibility in Washington, which has filed legal challenges against the president. After serving as Obama's ethics czar from 2009 to 2011, Eisen was appointed by Obama as ambassador to the Czech Republic, a position he held for nearly four years. In his new book, Eisen writes about that period and about watching the spread of illiberalism - anti-democratic leaders and movements - through the Czech Republic and other parts of Europe. The title of his new book, \"The Last Palace,\" is a reference to the huge mansion he lived in in Prague which is the residence of the American ambassador. And that's a fascinating story. The mansion was built by a Jewish industrialist who sank his fortune into the building but died in 1934 just before its completion. In 1938, his family fled the country because of anti-Semitism. During World War II and the German occupation, the mansion was the home of the German military's commander. We recorded our interview yesterday morning. Norm Eisen, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Let's start by talking about your book. Your mother is from Czechoslovakia. The Jews of her town were rounded up by the Nazis, sent to a ghetto, then deported to Auschwitz where most of her family and most of the Jews in her town were murdered, but she and her sister survived. What was her reaction when you told her that you were appointed ambassador to the Czech Republic?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "645198341", "date": "2018-09-06", "guest": "Norm Eisen", "title": "Obama's Former Ethics Czar Discusses Trump, And The Global Threat To Democracy", "question_index": 1, "text": "What was she afraid of?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mother's reaction shocked me. I thought she would be thrilled. My whole life I heard Czech lullabies, heard her talking with such affection about her - the former country where she had grown up, he"}
{"id": "645198341", "date": "2018-09-06", "guest": "Norm Eisen", "title": "Obama's Former Ethics Czar Discusses Trump, And The Global Threat To Democracy", "question_index": 2, "text": "And she told you, you don't know Europe like I do; it hasn't changed that much. She was actually afraid you'd be killed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She had experienced the ups and downs of the century firsthand, and she had lost everything she loved in the Czech lands not once but twice - first the Holocaust and then the onset of communism after "}
{"id": "645198341", "date": "2018-09-06", "guest": "Norm Eisen", "title": "Obama's Former Ethics Czar Discusses Trump, And The Global Threat To Democracy", "question_index": 3, "text": "So you get to the Czech Republic, move into this incredible mansion which became - has become the U.S. ambassador's headquarters. So you got there and found that there was a swastika stamped under the desk. Describe what you saw and how you found out about it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was. And she was fundamentally pessimistic as she looked at the large struggles between democracy and illiberalism, the opponents of democracy. And I look at those same struggles and said, well, d"}
{"id": "645198341", "date": "2018-09-06", "guest": "Norm Eisen", "title": "Obama's Former Ethics Czar Discusses Trump, And The Global Threat To Democracy", "question_index": 4, "text": "What was it like for you to live in this huge mansion knowing that there were remnants of the Nazi occupation, including swastikas?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I managed to persuade and reassure my mother sufficiently that she did not object to my going to Prague. I tried to get her to come with me and my family. I thought it would be so wonderful. Tha"}
{"id": "645198341", "date": "2018-09-06", "guest": "Norm Eisen", "title": "Obama's Former Ethics Czar Discusses Trump, And The Global Threat To Democracy", "question_index": 5, "text": "Which was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the - that first moment when Mr. Chernyak showed it to me was a summary of my feelings all throughout my four-year tenure as ambassador because of course initially, when you see a swastika in yo"}
{"id": "645198341", "date": "2018-09-06", "guest": "Norm Eisen", "title": "Obama's Former Ethics Czar Discusses Trump, And The Global Threat To Democracy", "question_index": 6, "text": "You tell some incredible stories about the mansion. I don't know what to call it. It's got somewhere between a hundred and 150 rooms.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I thought I had made progress. And we were negotiating a visit to Prague, and I was talking to her that night. I talked to her almost every day while I was in Prague. And all that progress slipp"}
{"id": "645198341", "date": "2018-09-06", "guest": "Norm Eisen", "title": "Obama's Former Ethics Czar Discusses Trump, And The Global Threat To Democracy", "question_index": 7, "text": "But this - the remarkable building that you lived in that was completed in around 1938 - but the person behind the concept of this building never really got to live in it 'cause he died, and then his family fled the anti-Semitism. But anyways, one of the people who lived there whose story you tell in your book was the German commander of the armed forces, the Wehrmacht, during World War II. And his name was Rudolf Toussaint. And you tell a story about how he tried to open up Prague to American troops during World War II, but President Eisenhower blocked that. Why did President Eisenhower block it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I thought I had made progress. And we were negotiating a visit to Prague, and I was talking to her that night. I talked to her almost every day while I was in Prague. And all that progress slipp"}
{"id": "645198341", "date": "2018-09-06", "guest": "Norm Eisen", "title": "Obama's Former Ethics Czar Discusses Trump, And The Global Threat To Democracy", "question_index": 8, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Norm Eisen, and you might know him as President Obama's former ethics czar. And then he became the U.S. ambassador to the Czech Republic under President Obama. He's also a founding member and chairman of the board of CREW, which stands for Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington, and they've been doing a lot of work pertaining to the Trump administration and potential ethics violations. His new memoir is called \"The Last Palace: Europe's Turbulent Century In Five Lives And One Legendary House,\" and it's about his tenure as ambassador in the Czech Republic.\" And it's also about this incredible mansion that became the headquarters of the U.S. ambassador. And it's about the spread of illiberalism in Europe. And we're going to talk about that and about echoes he sees of illiberalism in the U.S. now after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Eisenhower was solely focused on winning the war. And at the end of World War II, General Toussaint, who I believe a complex, conflicted character, struggled against the evil of the Nazi regime "}
{"id": "645198341", "date": "2018-09-06", "guest": "Norm Eisen", "title": "Obama's Former Ethics Czar Discusses Trump, And The Global Threat To Democracy", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Norm Eisen, who was the ethics czar under President Obama, then became Obama's ambassador to the Czech Republic. His new memoir is called \"The Last Palace: Europe's Turbulent Century In Five Lives And One Legendary House.\" And that's about his tenure as ambassador, the spread of illiberalism in parts of Europe, including the Czech Republic, and echoes of that he sees now in the U.S., which he's also been writing about in op-ed pieces. So tell us about some of the illiberalism you saw spreading through the Czech Republic and other places in Europe during the four years you were ambassador. And you took on that position in 2011.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Eisenhower was solely focused on winning the war. And at the end of World War II, General Toussaint, who I believe a complex, conflicted character, struggled against the evil of the Nazi regime "}
{"id": "645198341", "date": "2018-09-06", "guest": "Norm Eisen", "title": "Obama's Former Ethics Czar Discusses Trump, And The Global Threat To Democracy", "question_index": 10, "text": "What was your battle with the far-right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Terry, I was sent to Prague as part of the Obama administration reset with Russia and with Central and Eastern Europe more generally. But no sooner did I land on the ground than everybody told m"}
{"id": "645198341", "date": "2018-09-06", "guest": "Norm Eisen", "title": "Obama's Former Ethics Czar Discusses Trump, And The Global Threat To Democracy", "question_index": 11, "text": "And this is LGBTQ Pride.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the president of the Czech Republic at the time was a gentleman known as Vaclav Klaus - American-educated economist, very friendly, warm relations with Russia, also a climate change denier, host"}
{"id": "645198341", "date": "2018-09-06", "guest": "Norm Eisen", "title": "Obama's Former Ethics Czar Discusses Trump, And The Global Threat To Democracy", "question_index": 12, "text": "What did she tell you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, LGBTQ Pride. I saw that opportunity as the natural moment for me to break new ground in pushing the liberal idea that America had in partnership with Europe been advancing since 1918. But I didn'"}
{"id": "645198341", "date": "2018-09-06", "guest": "Norm Eisen", "title": "Obama's Former Ethics Czar Discusses Trump, And The Global Threat To Democracy", "question_index": 13, "text": "I told you so, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she gave me a look - I happened to be visiting her in Los Angeles for our summer vacation for a few days in the midst of this battle. And at first, she gave me that knowing look; you know, she'd"}
{"id": "645198341", "date": "2018-09-06", "guest": "Norm Eisen", "title": "Obama's Former Ethics Czar Discusses Trump, And The Global Threat To Democracy", "question_index": 14, "text": "OK. So, you know, in your book, you write about the spread of illiberalism through parts of Europe, including the Czech Republic, where you were the American ambassador for nearly four years. What do you mean when you say illiberalism? Like, define that for us, and maybe just mention the countries where you think illiberalism has been spreading.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She gave me that look. Everyone who has a mother knows that look. And certainly, those of us who have Jewish mothers are frequently the targets of that glance. And she gave me the look, and then she p"}
{"id": "645198341", "date": "2018-09-06", "guest": "Norm Eisen", "title": "Obama's Former Ethics Czar Discusses Trump, And The Global Threat To Democracy", "question_index": 15, "text": "What is it about President Trump that makes you see him as fitting into that category of illiberal?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I believe that at the core of the democratic project, the American-style democratic project that we have really worked on with our European allies on both sides of the Atlantic as equal partners since"}
{"id": "645198341", "date": "2018-09-06", "guest": "Norm Eisen", "title": "Obama's Former Ethics Czar Discusses Trump, And The Global Threat To Democracy", "question_index": 16, "text": "My guest is Norm Eisen. He's the chairman of the board of CREW, Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington, and served as President Obama's ethics czar and ambassador to the Czech Republic. His new book is called \"The Last Palace.\" After a break, we'll talk about allegations surrounding President Trump and conflicts of interest, including questions surrounding his nomination of Brett Kavanaugh. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If you look at President Trump, his attacks, his scapegoating of minorities, in his crony capitalism tampering with the free markets that make us strong, in his attacks on the press and, above all, in"}
{"id": "645198341", "date": "2018-09-06", "guest": "Norm Eisen", "title": "Obama's Former Ethics Czar Discusses Trump, And The Global Threat To Democracy", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross back with Norm Eisen, who served as President Obama's ethics czar. In 2011, Obama appointed Eisen to serve as ambassador to the Czech Republic, a position he held nearly four years. During that time, he saw the rise of illiberalism, anti-democratic leaders and movements in the Czech Republic and other parts of Europe. And now Eisen says he's witnessing illiberalism catch hold in the U.S. Eisen's new book about his tenure as ambassador, illiberalism and the mansion that became the ambassador's residence is called \"The Last Palace.\" Eisen is a co-founder and current board chair of CREW, Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington, which has filed legal challenges against President Trump on issues related to ethics, financial conflicts of interest and the Emoluments Clause of the constitution. Eisen and Richard Painter, who served as President George W. Bush's ethics czar, have worked together on some of these challenges. You see the nomination of Judge Kavanaugh to the Supreme Court as being deeply illiberal. Describe why you say that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If you look at President Trump, his attacks, his scapegoating of minorities, in his crony capitalism tampering with the free markets that make us strong, in his attacks on the press and, above all, in"}
{"id": "645198341", "date": "2018-09-06", "guest": "Norm Eisen", "title": "Obama's Former Ethics Czar Discusses Trump, And The Global Threat To Democracy", "question_index": 18, "text": "So say that Justice Kavanaugh is confirmed, which, I think most people think is likely. If there's a question that comes before the Supreme Court regarding President Trump's ethics or the Robert Mueller investigation, whether the president has the right to do anything pertaining to the Mueller investigation, like ordering his firing or whatever, do you think that Justice Kavanaugh should recuse himself? And, like, what are the precedents or the laws pertaining to a Supreme Court justice's recusal in a situation like that? Has there ever been a situation like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Never before in our almost 230-year history have we had a president who is a named subject in a criminal investigation pick his own judge. And he's chosen one who, as far as we can tell, has the most "}
{"id": "645198341", "date": "2018-09-06", "guest": "Norm Eisen", "title": "Obama's Former Ethics Czar Discusses Trump, And The Global Threat To Democracy", "question_index": 19, "text": "So if Judge Kavanaugh was confirmed to the Supreme Court and a case came before him pertaining to a potential violation on the part of President Trump, the president who appointed him to the Supreme Court, if he did not recuse himself - and many people, including you, thought he should recuse himself - is there, like, another arbiter of whether a Supreme Court justice should recuse himself? Is that - is a justice's decision the final decision in such a circumstance?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We've never had a situation like this. The situation has stimulated already what I believe is a looming constitutional conflict. It's not only my view. I've written this week with the constitutional s"}
{"id": "645198341", "date": "2018-09-06", "guest": "Norm Eisen", "title": "Obama's Former Ethics Czar Discusses Trump, And The Global Threat To Democracy", "question_index": 20, "text": "A constitutional obligation to do what?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Historically, it always has been. The recusal standards are loose at the Supreme Court, and it's been left to the individual justice. And if Kavanaugh refused to do it himself, there would undoubtedly"}
{"id": "645198341", "date": "2018-09-06", "guest": "Norm Eisen", "title": "Obama's Former Ethics Czar Discusses Trump, And The Global Threat To Democracy", "question_index": 21, "text": "When you were the ethics czar for President Obama and his White House, did you ever have to consider the possibility of what would happen if Obama was brought before a court and the decision went as high as the Supreme Court and what that would mean? I mean, he appointed Justice Kagan and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To knock Kavanaugh off. You should rule that his sitting on this offends the Constitution. It offends the principles of these other cases. To boil it down, it's a core constitutional principle of ours"}
{"id": "645198341", "date": "2018-09-06", "guest": "Norm Eisen", "title": "Obama's Former Ethics Czar Discusses Trump, And The Global Threat To Democracy", "question_index": 22, "text": "...Sotomayor.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "645198341", "date": "2018-09-06", "guest": "Norm Eisen", "title": "Obama's Former Ethics Czar Discusses Trump, And The Global Threat To Democracy", "question_index": 23, "text": "In the interest of disclosure, I should say that Chuck Grassley, who is the judiciary chair, put a hold on your appointment as ambassador. So I'm not - you know, I don't want to say that that's influencing your decision, but I think we need to disclose that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. The difference, of course, is - and I worked on both of those nominations when I was in the White House. Terry, the difference is that not only did the president not have looming cases dealing wi"}
{"id": "645198341", "date": "2018-09-06", "guest": "Norm Eisen", "title": "Obama's Former Ethics Czar Discusses Trump, And The Global Threat To Democracy", "question_index": 24, "text": "My guest is Norm Eisen, President Obama's former ethics czar and ambassador to the Czech Republic. He chairs the board of CREW, Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington. And he's the author of the new book \"The Last Palace.\" We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I was the subject of a hold. Chairman Grassley, who I respect and actually have a good relationship with, who's been - historically, has been a fighter for whistleblowers, which has been a cause "}
{"id": "645198341", "date": "2018-09-06", "guest": "Norm Eisen", "title": "Obama's Former Ethics Czar Discusses Trump, And The Global Threat To Democracy", "question_index": 25, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Norm Eisen. He served as President Obama's ethics czar and ambassador to the Czech Republic. He chairs the board of CREW, Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington. I want to ask you about the possibility of obstruction of justice. A lot of people have been questioning whether President Trump has done anything that would reach the, like, legal threshold for obstruction of justice. Are there examples that you think are the most compelling examples of that - 'cause this is something you've been investigating and writing about.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I was the subject of a hold. Chairman Grassley, who I respect and actually have a good relationship with, who's been - historically, has been a fighter for whistleblowers, which has been a cause "}
{"id": "645198341", "date": "2018-09-06", "guest": "Norm Eisen", "title": "Obama's Former Ethics Czar Discusses Trump, And The Global Threat To Democracy", "question_index": 26, "text": "So again, before becoming the ambassador to the Czech Republic under President Obama, you were Obama's ethics czar. And before that, you cofounded and now are the chair of the board of CREW, Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington. And CREW has been examining possible ethics violations committed by President Trump. So you have at least one suit that's in progress. How many suits does CREW have that are active now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There is very substantial evidence that President Trump obstructed justice. The most critical one were the days in and around his firing of Jim Comey because remember; he had demanded loyalty from Com"}
{"id": "645198341", "date": "2018-09-06", "guest": "Norm Eisen", "title": "Obama's Former Ethics Czar Discusses Trump, And The Global Threat To Democracy", "question_index": 27, "text": "Three-hundred.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, we've opened over 300 legal matters against the Trump administration."}
{"id": "645198341", "date": "2018-09-06", "guest": "Norm Eisen", "title": "Obama's Former Ethics Czar Discusses Trump, And The Global Threat To Democracy", "question_index": 28, "text": "So recently in a case that CREW is a party to with the District of Columbia and the state of Maryland, the case in which the judge said that the states actually have standing because hotels and commerce in their areas were being affected by Trump's hotel in Washington, which obviously has certain advantages because it's branded by the president - so the suit is progressing now. So what does it mean that they got standing in terms of the possibility of other plaintiffs and other similar cases getting standing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Over 300 legal matters - not all of them are lawsuits. Some are in court. Some are complaints that we file with federal agencies, a variety of other FOIA litigation - a wide variety. Perhaps the most "}
{"id": "645198341", "date": "2018-09-06", "guest": "Norm Eisen", "title": "Obama's Former Ethics Czar Discusses Trump, And The Global Threat To Democracy", "question_index": 29, "text": "So one of the things that's already happened in this case is that the judge defined emoluments, which is important because no one really thought about emoluments until President Trump ran for office because of all of his commercial interests. And people have been trying to figure out, what did the framers mean when they use the word emoluments? So how did the judge on this case define emoluments?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, the standing doctrine is a rule that a plaintiff has to show that they have injury. And the judge in this case said, yes, D.C. and Maryland, you're suffering sufficient injury because Trump is "}
{"id": "645198341", "date": "2018-09-06", "guest": "Norm Eisen", "title": "Obama's Former Ethics Czar Discusses Trump, And The Global Threat To Democracy", "question_index": 30, "text": "And wasn't Trump's team also defining emoluments as an out-and-out bribe of officiants?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "actually went back and looked at all the dictionaries that were in use at the time the Constitution was written. And this was either the first or the second definition of emoluments in virtually all t"}
{"id": "645198341", "date": "2018-09-06", "guest": "Norm Eisen", "title": "Obama's Former Ethics Czar Discusses Trump, And The Global Threat To Democracy", "question_index": 31, "text": "I see.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, if you have this notion of a quid pro quo of a personal services contract, that does have intimations of a bribe."}
{"id": "645198341", "date": "2018-09-06", "guest": "Norm Eisen", "title": "Obama's Former Ethics Czar Discusses Trump, And The Global Threat To Democracy", "question_index": 32, "text": "So if you win the emoluments case, what happens?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But it would be tantamount to a bribe. Obviously, they were saying that, you know, the Saudi king would not necessarily, in the contract, say with Trump, you're going to change American policy. He'd s"}
{"id": "645198341", "date": "2018-09-06", "guest": "Norm Eisen", "title": "Obama's Former Ethics Czar Discusses Trump, And The Global Threat To Democracy", "question_index": 33, "text": "Would it apply just to the hotel?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The president is forced to stop taking emoluments through..."}
{"id": "645198341", "date": "2018-09-06", "guest": "Norm Eisen", "title": "Obama's Former Ethics Czar Discusses Trump, And The Global Threat To Democracy", "question_index": 34, "text": "Norm Eisen, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the - this - yes. This order, this ruling would apply just to the hotel, but the precedent would apply to everything he's doing. And so it could be used by other courts, other judges, other liti"}
{"id": "645198341", "date": "2018-09-06", "guest": "Norm Eisen", "title": "Obama's Former Ethics Czar Discusses Trump, And The Global Threat To Democracy", "question_index": 35, "text": "Norm Eisen is chairman of the board of CREW, Citizens for Ethics and Responsibility in Washington. He served as President Obama's ethics czar and ambassador to the Czech Republic. His new book is called \"The Last Palace.\" After we recorded our interview yesterday, The New York Times published an op-ed headlined \"The Quiet Resistance Inside The Trump Administration\" written by a senior official in the administration, whose identity the Times is keeping anonymous. The writer said that he or she is one of the Trump appointees who have, quote, \"vowed to do what we can to preserve our democratic institutions while thwarting Mr. Trump's more misguided impulses until he is out of office,\" unquote. The official also writes that the president's impulsiveness results in, quote, \"half-baked, ill-informed and occasionally reckless decisions that have to be walked back,\" unquote. After we take a short break, film critic David Edelstein will review the movie \"Blaze,\" directed and co-written by Ethan Hawke, inspired by the life of country music singer and songwriter Blaze Foley. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, thank you."}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 0, "text": "Finn Murphy, welcome to FRESH AIR. I want to start with a reading from the book, a short paragraph from the introduction.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies in for Terry Gross. Most of us have had the experience, driving on an interstate, of looking up at the driver of a tractor-trailer next to us and wondering what's hi"}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 1, "text": "Well, thanks for reading that. And apparently you don't wear jeans or belts 'cause they can scratch the furniture.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) To the casual observer, all trucks probably look similar. And I suppose people figure all truckers do pretty much the same job. Neither is true. There's a strict hierarchy of drivers dependi"}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 2, "text": "So why are long-haul furniture movers at the bottom of the trucker hierarchy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that's correct."}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 3, "text": "So describe your truck.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because we have to load and unload our trucks, first. Second, we have to deal with customers. So as a mover who works for a van line, I'm managing this move and this transition for this family. And th"}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 4, "text": "Whoa.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My truck - I have a brand-new Freightliner Cascadia with a 435 Detroit Diesel engine. It's a Class 8 truck, which means the big tractor-trailers. I picked it up in Indianapolis in November. It had 42 "}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 5, "text": "Right out of the showroom", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep."}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep."}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 7, "text": "And you own...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "yep, I drove it right out of the lot. It's got a walk-in sleeper with a double bed in the back. It's got a bunk bed up above, a microwave oven, refrigerator, navigation system, a custom air ride seat "}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 8, "text": "You own it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It cost me..."}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 9, "text": "Yeah, bigger than some mortgages", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "yeah, I was just getting to that. I don't own it. I lease it, and it's $4,700 a month - is my truck payment. So it's like a big mortgage."}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 10, "text": ". So how does this truck compare to the truck you started driving back in - around 1980?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "yeah, I was just getting to that. I don't own it. I lease it, and it's $4,700 a month - is my truck payment. So it's like a big mortgage."}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 11, "text": "Wow. If there's no hood in front, there's nothing to protect you from head-on crash.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, so that was an International TranStar back then, what we call a cab-over. So there's no hood to it. So you're - the windshield is sitting right over the road, and you're sitting actually right ove"}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 12, "text": "Yeah, good idea. So that leads to, what are some of the roads or road conditions that you fear most?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, there isn't. And so let's avoid that."}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 13, "text": "Oh, gee.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "people that don't drive trucks. If you drive an ambulance, it's called a bone box. A school bus is called a cheese wagon. Motorcycle riders are called organ donors."}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 14, "text": "So have you ever been - I hope not - in an accident?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And we call motorcycle - they're called murdercycles. Some - I mean, I can't even see motorcycles most of the time."}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 15, "text": "Wow,", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nothing serious. I've been in a few fender benders here and there, some - trying to make a tight urban turn. I got stuck in Boston once where the truck - in Cambridge, I was trying to make one of thos"}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 16, "text": "OK. So when people hire you to move all their possessions - and mostly you have very high-end clients - they're leaving all their possessions in the world to a stranger. And no matter how, you know, nice and diplomatic and caring you are when you meet them, you're still a stranger. What do people say to you to try to convince you to be nice to their stuff and take", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nothing serious. I've been in a few fender benders here and there, some - trying to make a tight urban turn. I got stuck in Boston once where the truck - in Cambridge, I was trying to make one of thos"}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 17, "text": "good care of it because I'm sure there's really, like, nice ways of doing that and really, like, threatening ways of doing that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nothing serious. I've been in a few fender benders here and there, some - trying to make a tight urban turn. I got stuck in Boston once where the truck - in Cambridge, I was trying to make one of thos"}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 18, "text": "So you're entrusted with the possessions, and sometimes something goes wrong. And I think, like, the biggest example of that in your book is when you were moving a family, and the woman's baby grand piano was, like, the most prized possession of - was, like, a family heirloom in addition to being a piano. And it didn't really fit easily into the new home. And it was kind of a catastrophe. Would you describe what happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". There's a lot of tattoos. It's all immigrant laborers - wonderful, wonderful people. And I have crews all over the country I've been working with for decades. But it can be a kind of unnerving initi"}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 19, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And so we had to bring this up an outside staircase. It was a baby grand piano, weighed about 700 pounds. And we were bringing it up the incline just with brute force, which is one of the really att"}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 20, "text": "That's so horrible.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...When it goes boing? So that's the noise that the piano made. That was its death flurry. And we were all just shocked and standing around. And the customer was there with a toddler in her hand. And "}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 21, "text": "So you write that that truckers like you aren't sentimental about objects. I'll kind of leave a baby grand out of that because that's an instrument. That's different than", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And myself and my crew - we just looked over at the shipper. We call the customer the shipper. And one of my men, this big giant of a man, went over and put his arm around the customer, the shipper. A"}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 22, "text": "an object in my opinion. But so you write you're not sentimental about objects. You don't own much. I could easily see it being the other way around. Watching how meaningful possessions are to people, I could see you becoming more attached, not less attached to things in your life. So why are you less attached?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And myself and my crew - we just looked over at the shipper. We call the customer the shipper. And one of my men, this big giant of a man, went over and put his arm around the customer, the shipper. A"}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 23, "text": "Do you ever pick out things that you want for yourself when you're supposed to be putting everything in the dumpster?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because we see objects or stuff in a continuum of the way people live. For example, in your 20s and 30s, most Americans are accumulating things. And then in the 40s and 50s, that sort of levels off. A"}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 24, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But we get - movers get offered things all the time. In fact, so here are the - here's the four things that movers get offered most commonly - pianos, hot tubs..."}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 25, "text": "Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...backyard trampolines and pool tables."}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 26, "text": "Why are those the things?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Every mover I know could have six or seven of these things if they wanted to have them."}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 27, "text": "They don't say, I'll leave it for the next family; they'll love having it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because they're big and bulky. And depending on where they're moving to, they may or may not have room. They put it on Craigslist. They priced it wrong. And on moving day, it's still there. And then a"}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 28, "text": "Right, OK. Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Finn Murphy, and he's a long-haul trucker. He moves people long distances and moves all their possessions to their new home. Now he's written a memoir about it called \"The Long Haul: A Trucker's Tales Of Life On The Road.\" We're going to take a short break, then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We do that too because usually we're not taking the hot tub or the backyard trampoline."}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Finn Murphy. He's written a new memoir about being a long-haul trucker. Basically it's like a huge moving van. He deals with high-end customers who are moving to distant locations. His memoir is called \"The Long Haul: A Trucker's Tales Of Life On The Road.\" What's one of the strangest things that you've had to move?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We do that too because usually we're not taking the hot tub or the backyard trampoline."}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 30, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Probably a collection of Chinese gravestones. This gentleman that I was moving - he had eight of them, and he had purchased them somewhere. Each one was worth $80,000. He had a gallery set up in the c"}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 31, "text": "He's entrusting you with this, you know, fortune's worth of stuff, and he won't even let you use his bathroom or one of his bathrooms.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he kept going..."}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 32, "text": "But if he's disrespecting you that way, how are you supposed to respect his possessions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, yeah. That's how it works sometimes."}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 33, "text": "Uh-oh. Here we go.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, fortunately, movers and restaurant workers have some sort of retaliatory measures at hand."}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So we didn't say anything to him. And he kept going down into town and bringing back food for himself and his wife and people and - anyway, we were starving, and we were using the port-a-potty. And we"}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 35, "text": "How does a house even support so many 600-pound gravestones?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he couldn't tell the difference. So we were really looking forward to the day when he was going to have a cocktail party and show off his gravestones. And somebody who was - understood Chinese wou"}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 36, "text": "Oh, my gosh, OK", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he had an Olympic pool in the basement, so I imagine it was made..."}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 37, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he had an Olympic pool in the basement, so I imagine it was made..."}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 38, "text": "Yeah, OK. So what's the view like when you're riding high up in the cab of a truck and all the other cars, especially the compact cars like me, are so far below you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, this - I get to see some pretty amazing places."}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 39, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So what people don't seem to understand is that I can see everything. And people tend to think that their automobile is anonymous. And I find that really amusing. So you've got this vehicle with windo"}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 40, "text": "I thought you were going to say people are picking their noses.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Inside their vehicles makes it look like they don't think anybody can see. Well, I can see everything. So I know what everybody's doing in their cars. And, you know, Americans - we're pretty good d"}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 41, "text": "I honestly thought that. And I thought something else you were going to say that has to do with body fluids. So, you know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Inside their vehicles makes it look like they don't think anybody can see. Well, I can see everything. So I know what everybody's doing in their cars. And, you know, Americans - we're pretty good d"}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 42, "text": "I know. So you've seen that, too. You're just not mentioning it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is a family show, Terry."}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 43, "text": "All right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I haven't seen anybody actually eliminating fluids in a car, no."}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 44, "text": "Yes, OK. So you write that you've worked with people who are suspicious of your diction and demeanor. And white-collar people wonder what a guy like you who looks and sounds like them is doing driving a truck and moving furniture for a living. So people are suspicious of you or surprised on both ends. The truck drivers are suspicious of your diction and demeanor. And the people who you're moving wonder, like, what an educated guy like you is doing moving furniture for a living. So how does it feel to have both - what's my question?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I haven't seen that. I have seen some romantic moments."}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 45, "text": "What's my question, Finn?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'll toss in if you want."}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 46, "text": "You tell me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think your question is..."}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 47, "text": "You don't mention this in the book, but your father was John Cullen Murphy, who drew the popular newspaper comic strip \"Prince Valiant.\" And you seemed to want to get as far away from his life as possible. But it sounds like being the son of a comic strip artist would be so great. And in fact I interviewed your brother recently who wrote a memoir about being the son", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies in for Terry Gross. We're listening to Terry's interview recorded in February with Finn Murphy, author of the memoir \"The Long Haul: A Trucker's Tale Of Life On The "}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 48, "text": "of a comic book strip artist. And it seemed to be great for him. So what were you rebelling against within your family?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies in for Terry Gross. We're listening to Terry's interview recorded in February with Finn Murphy, author of the memoir \"The Long Haul: A Trucker's Tale Of Life On The "}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 49, "text": "So how did it go over with your parents when you told them you were dropping out of college at the end of your junior year to become a long-distance trucker?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it was great having my father as a commercial illustrator. In fact, he had a studio behind our house, so my father was always home. When we came back from school or whatever, he was right there. My"}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 50, "text": "So you write, (reading) many young male neurotics find out early that hard labor is salve for an overactive mind. Running up and down staircases for hours on end, carrying dressers and refrigerators and pianos was to me a relief from stress. Hard work temporarily shut down the constant movie running in my brain that looped around in an endless cacophony of other people's expectations, obligations, guilt, anger and rebellion. So, like, you had to get out of your head through physical work?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So yeah, back to my father for a moment - probably the one regret of his life was that he was not able to go to college. His father died when he was 19. My father had to support his family. And all he"}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 51, "text": "Yeah. It's pretty good. Did you work on that a long time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I did. That's a really good sentence by the way, isn't it?"}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 52, "text": "You stopped driving for about 10 years. You don't say in the book what you did during those 10 years. Can you give us a sense of what your life was like in the 10 years that you stopped driving?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I didn't actually. It just rolled right off the page. But yes, one of the great things about manual labor and especially for - if anyone who's done continual manual labor over a long period of tim"}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 53, "text": "And then you went back into trucking again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. So I was working for North American Van Lines, and I was getting basically burnt out. And one of the things that I had always intended to do when I left college was to save some money and go into"}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 54, "text": "So what happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 55, "text": "Well, changing the subject for a second, I have to say a paragraph I particularly enjoyed in your memoir has to do with how you listen to a lot of public radio when you're driving in your truck", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I was on - living on Nantucket Island as a high-profile businessman and citizen and community activist. I was actually chairman of the county commissioners on Nantucket. I was a police commissioner"}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 56, "text": "and that you know a lot of other truckers who listen to public radio, too - and so my personal thanks for that and for a very nice mention of me and our show. But I love that one Klan member from Georgia calls NPR U.S. Jews and girls report.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I was on - living on Nantucket Island as a high-profile businessman and citizen and community activist. I was actually chairman of the county commissioners on Nantucket. I was a police commissioner"}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 57, "text": "That's pretty funny. And as you said, yeah, he might say that, but he listens.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I was on - living on Nantucket Island as a high-profile businessman and citizen and community activist. I was actually chairman of the county commissioners on Nantucket. I was a police commissioner"}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 58, "text": "We don't know for sure, though, do we?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He probably doesn't have the mug, though."}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 59, "text": "That would great if he did. So just a couple of questions before we wrap up - you can't just pull into any parking lot when you're driving an 18-wheeler. So it's kind of personal.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't."}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 60, "text": "It's kind of private, but what do you do for pit stops, like, when you need the bathroom? Do you have one of those jars, one of those bottles for truckers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't."}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 61, "text": "Is that OK for me to ask you that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't."}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 62, "text": "Oh, no", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's fine. So here's - so the trucker staple here is an empty Gatorade bottle. And if you go into a truck stop parking lot on a summer afternoon..."}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 63, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's fine. So here's - so the trucker staple here is an empty Gatorade bottle. And if you go into a truck stop parking lot on a summer afternoon..."}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 64, "text": "What do you do when you're starting to fall asleep at the wheel?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You'll see legions of flattened Gatorade bottles all over the parking lot, and that will provide an interesting olfactory experience. So yeah, there's that. I try to get out and be a little more ci"}
{"id": "645556356", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Finn Murphy", "title": "Long Haul Trucker Was 'Completely Seduced' By The Open Road", "question_index": 65, "text": "All right. Good luck to you with your writing and your driving, and thank you so much for talking with us. It's really been fun.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's really easy for me. So for you four-wheeler drivers out there, if you start getting that fluttering-of-the-eyelid thing, then you're - it's really time - it's actually past time to pull over. So "}
{"id": "645570680", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Burt Reynolds", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Film Star Burt Reynolds", "question_index": 0, "text": "Did he punish you a lot when you were crazy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's like being a preacher's son or a sheriff's son or whatever. I mean, you go one of two ways. You're either a little angel, or you're crazy. And I thought crazy was the best choice of the two"}
{"id": "645570680", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Burt Reynolds", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Film Star Burt Reynolds", "question_index": 1, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I mean, he double punished. I mean, I was arrested once for fighting with about four guys. And they put us all in jail. And he came in and he said, your father's here; you can go home; your fathe"}
{"id": "645570680", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Burt Reynolds", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Film Star Burt Reynolds", "question_index": 2, "text": "I want to ask you about one of your most acclaimed films. And I'm thinking of \"Deliverance.\" You were...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he threw every drunk he arrested on top of me. I was always doing something that wasn't - you know, first of all, you have to understand that I don't respect anyone as much as I respect him. I don"}
{"id": "645570680", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Burt Reynolds", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Film Star Burt Reynolds", "question_index": 3, "text": "Well, you especially - you were almost killed...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You could almost say only acclaimed film. But I was only in I think maybe two really acclaimed films, \"Deliverance\" and \"The Longest Yard\" and maybe \"Starting Over\" because it was nominated for an Emm"}
{"id": "645570680", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Burt Reynolds", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Film Star Burt Reynolds", "question_index": 4, "text": "...In a waterfall scene. Why don't you describe the scene which apparently none of the stunt people even wanted to do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "645570680", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Burt Reynolds", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Film Star Burt Reynolds", "question_index": 5, "text": "Well, what happened to all of your clothes? Were they shorn off by the rocks?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, they - well, they would be - they'd be - said, you know, you're too crazy. Go away. You know, and I was crazy. But we had a - we could stop the water. We had a dam that we had control over. And it"}
{"id": "645570680", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Burt Reynolds", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Film Star Burt Reynolds", "question_index": 6, "text": "Did it really look like that to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They just vanished. I mean, it was - that's how fast and how strong the water was. And the next day, I went to the rushes with everybody, very anxious to see my exciting stunt. And we looked at it. An"}
{"id": "645570680", "date": "2018-09-07", "guest": "Burt Reynolds", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Film Star Burt Reynolds", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not to me. It looked like a dummy but a different kind."}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. In telling the story of her own life, my guest, Claire Tomalin, has tried to tell a larger story of British women of her generation. She was born in 1933. In her new memoir, \"A Life Of My Own,\" she describes herself as having been carried along by conflicting desires to have children and a worthwhile working life. She eventually had both. She gave birth to five children, worked for British publications as a book reviewer and editor and, later in life, found her true vocation as a biographer, writing books about Jane Austen and Charles Dickens and the early feminist Mary Wollstonecraft. Tomalin says her story should be cheering to anyone who is finding it hard to establish a career they find congenial. She also writes about grief. One of her children was born with growths covering his body and died in infancy. One of her daughters took her life after suffering profound, terrifying depression. In 1973, her first husband, the British reporter Nick Tomalin, was killed in Israel by a Syrian missile while covering the Yom Kippur War. And because she thinks it's important for people to know what it's like to be the parent of a disabled child, she writes about raising her son Tom, who was born with spina bifida, leaving him unable to ever stand or walk. Tomalin remarried at age 60 to the British playwright Michael Frayn. Claire Tomalin, welcome to FRESH AIR. I really love your memoir. And I'm going to ask you to read the first few lines of your introductory note.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 1, "text": "I think that will give our listeners a sense of where you're going to be going", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) Writing about myself has not been easy. I have tried to be as truthful as possible, which has meant moving between the trivial and the tragic in a way that could seem callous. But that is ho"}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 2, "text": "in this book and also how well you write. Did writing biographies help you understand the story of your own life and find the parts that you thought may be of interest and value to others?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) Writing about myself has not been easy. I have tried to be as truthful as possible, which has meant moving between the trivial and the tragic in a way that could seem callous. But that is ho"}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 3, "text": "In your introductory note, you write about how you were carried along by conflicting desires to have children and a worthwhile working life and how long it took you to get going with your work. You went to Cambridge University when there were few women there. Then when you started applying for jobs, you applied to the BBC. Tell us what you were told about applying as a woman to the BBC.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I suppose it did encourage me to try and write about my own life. I think particularly working on Samuel Pepys, the diarist - the 17th century diarist - because what is so extraordinary with him is th"}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Why didn't they think you would get it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So that was a pretty smart put-down from the BBC."}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 5, "text": "And you were judged on your looks, too. Weren't you graded a 7 out of 10?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I really don't know. Perhaps they just thought I was unsuitable in some way."}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 6, "text": "And that was good enough to get the job.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It was very funny."}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 7, "text": "So you married when you were young. You were 21, and your husband Nick Tomalin, who was a journalist, was 23. And since you write about the conflicting desires to have children and a working life, I'm interested that you wanted to have six children. That seems to mitigate", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just about, yes."}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 8, "text": "against a career.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just about, yes."}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 9, "text": "I mean, six is really a lot. Why did you want six? How did you think - if you succeeded in having six, how that would affect the other things you wanted to do in life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, you had two daughters. And then you had a baby who was born with sores or growths over his whole body. Why that happened - no one ever explained what the cause was. No one ever was able to explain. This baby died very soon. Can you talk a little bit about the quality of grief for a baby that lived so briefly?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "you don't know what hard work it's going to be. You don't know that you're going to have no free time at all for several years. So you can sail into this situation."}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 11, "text": "So at the same time you were having all these children, your marriage wasn't working out. Your husband Nick became a famous reporter in England. He was gone a lot of the time. He started having affairs. And you write, my role now was as the boring suburban wife with too many children who held him back. So if you thought he saw you that way, did you start to see yourself that way, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was extremely painful because he was brought to me wrapped up. So I saw his head and held him. And this was - I give birth very easily, so, you know, I wasn't at all traumatized by the birth myself"}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 12, "text": "So but did you start to see yourself as a boring suburban wife?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I find it hard to remember. I was terribly upset when I realized he was having affairs. And I did realize that there was an awful lot of baby life going on and breastfeeding and all that and tha"}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 13, "text": "You write, the collapse of our marriage was not all his fault. We were too young to marry. You were 21. He was 23 when you got married. And I was not the right wife for him. I was too serious, too critical. I was charmed by him, but I did not adore him, and he fell in love with girls who either did adore him or who knew how to convey adoration. I saw him changing into an almost unrecognizable person, and I had no idea how to respond. What about responding to the women he was having affairs with? Were you angry with them, and did you wonder how they could have affairs with a married man?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "you could see what it's like when you've got young couples together."}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Accidentally or on purpose?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Oh, really? Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, you say he kept leaving home and then returning.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's not in the book. You're making me remember things that are not in - but it's true. I did not adore him. I see there is a difference. There is a big difference between getting on very well - we "}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Your parents had divorced when you were young. How did that affect your decision to try to keep the family together in spite of the fact that he was not only having affairs; he was leaving you for other women and then coming back?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he did that fairly often, yes, yes."}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 18, "text": "This kind of astounds me. Your father sent your husband a letter in which your father told your husband that that he, your father, hadn't been able to live with your mother and he, your father, was not surprised that Nick, your husband, couldn't live with you. What", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I suppose I resisted the idea of divorce. On the other hand, when he said he wanted the divorce, I did finally say all right. I mean, he told all his family, all my family. But he always changed"}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 19, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I suppose I resisted the idea of divorce. On the other hand, when he said he wanted the divorce, I did finally say all right. I mean, he told all his family, all my family. But he always changed"}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 20, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is writer Claire Tomalin. She's best known for her biographies of people like Dickens and the early feminist Mary Wollstonecraft. But now she's written her own memoir, and it's called \"A Life Of My Own.\" We'll be back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thought, thank you very much. Yes, there was bad male behavior certainly."}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is writer Claire Tomalin. After years of being a book reviewer and editor in England, she became a biographer with acclaimed biographies of people like the early feminist Mary Wollstonecraft and Charles Dickens. Now she's written about her own life in a memoir called \"A Life Of My Own.\" At some point, your husband Nick became more violent to you. He hit you. You needed stitches on your lip once. After you had a brief affair - and that followed after him having had several affairs - he hit you again, and he tried to run over the man you'd had the affair with.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thought, thank you very much. Yes, there was bad male behavior certainly."}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 22, "text": "I'm curious about the decision to stay with a man who could be violent 'cause you write you had to adjust to the fact that he could be violent, and you prepared yourself for more possibilities of that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Why do you want to be reminded of that moment?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "ever since as a memorial. I have it on my kitchen door now."}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 24, "text": "And what did you do with that realization?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I suppose I thought it was quite funny. But also it was a moment of when I actually realized something - that I was living with a man who thought it was all right for him to have affairs but it wasn't"}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Was that moment a turning point?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I've sort of kept it. It seemed to me it was part of the ethos of the time perhaps. It stayed with me and amused me. I like to have physical objects that remind me of moments in my life."}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 26, "text": "So we've been talking about how your marriage went through a very rocky period with your husband leaving and having affairs, then coming back again. After you reunited again in 1970, you decided to have another baby. Why did you decide to have another baby when you knew that there was something shaky in the foundation of your marriage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I suppose it was in a sense that I saw that, you know, there was a tradition - there was a moral tradition which was being enacted here OK for men, not OK for wives."}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 27, "text": "Your baby Tom was born with spina bifida. Would you explain what that is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I suppose I just wanted to have another baby. I also thought it would be lovely for my daughters. And I remember sort of thinking if I - if we have a baby in the family now, it would be really n"}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 28, "text": "That's, like, a swelling of the brain.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Spina bifida happens when the spinal cord doesn't close properly. And so it comes in various degrees of severity. And in Tom's case, it was quite severe. And after he was born, almost immediately I wa"}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 29, "text": "So you mentioned your friend who had a baby with a similar problem was told, don't have the operation; your baby will live a few months and then will die.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "and how he envied me, my situation, you know? He didn't think it was a terrible disaster having a handicapped son. He thought I was really enviable to have this beautiful baby. He was a very beautiful"}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 30, "text": "And you'll have other children.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes."}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 31, "text": "And you write that you wondered if your son Tom could possibly have a life worth living. Do you think that the doctor should have offered you the chance to have what's sometimes described as a merciful death for your son?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 32, "text": "My guest is Claire Tomalin. Her new memoir is called \"A Life Of My Own.\" After a break, we'll talk about her first husband's death while he was covering the Yom Kippur War and how she fell in love and remarried much later in life. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no. I'm not going to say that because Tom is now 48 years old, and he's - extraordinary character. He's the courage of a lion. And he's battled with such bravery through life that he's an exampl"}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 33, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross back with Claire Tomalin. After writing biographies of Dickens, Jane Austen and the early feminist Mary Wollstonecraft, Tomalin has written a memoir called \"A Life Of My Own.\" Through her story, she tries to tell a larger story of British women of her generation. She was born in 1933. She describes her conflicting desires to have children and a satisfying working life. It took a while, but she eventually had both. She gave birth to five children. One died in infancy. When we left off, we were talking about her son Tom, who was born with spina bifida, a birth defect in which the baby's spinal cord has not fully developed or has not closed properly in the womb. Tom has never been able to walk or stand. And you wrote at some point you stopped taking him to the playground because it was painful for him...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no. I'm not going to say that because Tom is now 48 years old, and he's - extraordinary character. He's the courage of a lion. And he's battled with such bravery through life that he's an exampl"}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 34, "text": "...And for you to watch the other children being able to do things that he'd never be able to do.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Your husband Nick, who had, you know, in the '70s become a pretty famous journalist in England - he went on a reporting trip to Israel just after the start of the Yom Kippur War when Syria and Egypt launched a surprise attack on Israel on Yom Kippur, which is the holiest day of the year in the Jewish calendar. And he told you that he thought he'd be safe. He told you, I wouldn't go anywhere dangerous now with four children; but the Israelis know how to look after journalists, and I'll be perfectly safe with them. While driving toward the front lines, he was killed by a Syrian heat-guided missile. And one of the things that really horrified you about his death was the idea of him dying alone. Could you talk a little bit about why that was such a horrible thought for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I can remember him looking at the other children. And quite recently he said to me - I was talking to him about this, and he said, well, I believed then that when I grew up, I would be able to wa"}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 36, "text": "You write it changed your life when you realized you were now in charge of it. How did it change your life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think anyone should die alone. I think when you're dying, you really do need someone with you. And it's - the German reporter who was there rang - telephoned me after he got back and said that"}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 37, "text": "Why did you think it would be better to take the job?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "which was absolutely wonderful. And I was - then John Gross, who was at the New Statesman, said, I must come. He wanted to go to the Times Literary Supplement, and he thought I should come and be lite"}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 38, "text": "So your first biography was a biography of Mary Wollstonecraft, the early feminist who wrote \"A Vindication Of The Rights Of Woman,\" which was published in 1792 and argued that women were the equals of men. How did this historical look at feminism and Wollstonecraft's life affect your understanding of your own life? Did it? And I should mention your biography of her was published in the mid-1970s.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because I think mothers who stay at home and live entirely through their children - I mean, some people are very happy doing this, but I didn't think it was a very good idea. By then, my daughter - my"}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 39, "text": "So did Mary Wollstonecraft's writing and how she lived her life affect how you lived your life after your husband was killed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was rather interesting. I wrote it because when I was taking maternity leave to have Tom, the editor of the New Statesman - I'd been working already as deputy literary editor. And he said, we"}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 40, "text": "Did her biography also give you a sense of strength or courage in pursuing an independent life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, studying her was amazing to me because I discovered this woman in the 18th century who seemed to be living a life very, very much like mine. She was living in North London. She was working on a "}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 41, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Claire Tomalin. She's a biographer who's written books about Mary Wollstonecraft, the early feminist, and Charles Dickens. Her new memoir is called \"A Life Of My Own.\" We're going to take a short break, then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "faithless to her. And so she's done - she sort of slightly turned into a romantic heroine. She is completely fascinating figure to me still."}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 42, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Claire Tomalin. She was a longtime book reviewer and editor for publications in England, and then she became a full-time biographer. Her biographies include books about Charles Dickens and the early feminist Mary Wollstonecraft. Now she has a memoir called \"A Life Of My Own.\" I want to ask you about another tragedy in your life. Your second-oldest daughter, Susanna, got profoundly depressed in 1979 while she was attending Cambridge University.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "faithless to her. And so she's done - she sort of slightly turned into a romantic heroine. She is completely fascinating figure to me still."}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 43, "text": "At Oxford - I'm sorry. Thank you. And then she took her life in 1980.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, she was at Oxford."}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 44, "text": "And you found her depression - it sounds like everyone who knew her found her depression unfathomable because it was such a sudden, inexplicable change from how she had been in the past. Have you ever found any explanation? And I know that with schizophrenia, for instance, it often sets in in somebody's teenage years for reasons I don't really understand. But I've, you know, I've learned...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 45, "text": "...That that's true.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think she was schizophrenic."}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 46, "text": "It turned out to be true, though.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I don't think she was schizophrenic. I remember her telling me that she'd been questioned by doctors to see, and she thought they were trying to see whether she was schizophrenic. I don't think sh"}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 47, "text": "You know, and in her suicide note, she wrote that she was sorry, but, quote, \"it could get worse.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was true, yes. It was true."}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 48, "text": "So I guess she was really afraid of that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that's right, but I suppose that..."}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 49, "text": "Yeah. You write, I should have protected her. How can you protect somebody from their own depression?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that's right. And another friend of mine who suffered from depression said, if you haven't had depression, you don't have any idea what it's like. This was a Roman Catholic friend of min"}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 50, "text": "Your write, the grief has to be set aside, but it does not go away. It arrives each morning as you wake, lies in wait in the familiar routines of the day, takes you by surprise. Does it still?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's the trouble. It's very difficult. And I didn't succeed."}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 51, "text": "Why don't we take a short break here? And then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Claire Tomalin. She's a biographer who's written books about Mary Wollstonecraft, the early feminist, and Charles Dickens. Her new memoir is called \"A Life Of My Own.\" We're going to take a short break. Then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think writing the book has helped. A lot of people have written to me about that passage, people who've lost someone they loved, and said, yes, that is how it is and sort of sharing with people the "}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 52, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Claire Tomalin. She was a longtime book reviewer and editor for publications in England, and then she became a full-time biographer. Her biographies include books about Charles Dickens and the early feminist Mary Wollstonecraft. Now she has a memoir called \"A Life Of My Own.\" So, you know, we've talked a lot about raising your family and about your first marriage, which had a lot of rocky periods. And then your husband was killed while covering the Yom Kippur War. He was killed by a heat-seeking missile, a Syrian missile. At the age of 60, you remarried to the playwright Michael Frayn, who's best known for - in America, anyways, I think he's best known for \"Noises Off.\" He was married when you started seeing each other, and you write you tried to end it several times. But finally, his wife was understanding, and they separated. And you married Michael Frayn. Since you had been through your husband having so many affairs and then coming back to you, what was it like for you to be the woman who was having the affair with a married man?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think writing the book has helped. A lot of people have written to me about that passage, people who've lost someone they loved, and said, yes, that is how it is and sort of sharing with people the "}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 53, "text": "I don't know if this is anything you can crystallize, but I was wondering if you could talk about the quality of love as an older woman, compared to the quality of love in your 20s when you married your first husband. And I ask that in part because, like, sexual lust isn't - do you know what I mean? - isn't part of the equation in the same way when you get married when you're 60, as it is when you get married...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's a very good question. Of course, it was very difficult and painful. And it went on for quite a long time. And as I say, we tried to stop seeing each other. We went through all sorts of pr"}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 54, "text": "...In your 20s.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm not sure that I would..."}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 55, "text": "OK, fair enough.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 56, "text": "That's a very interesting answer", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think sexual love is very fundamental - is a very important part of life. And for me, I was certainly - in some ways, more important when I was 60 than when I was 20."}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 57, "text": ". So you're 85 now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think sexual love is very fundamental - is a very important part of life. And for me, I was certainly - in some ways, more important when I was 60 than when I was 20."}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 58, "text": "Your book strikes me as a very honest book. I don't really know you, so I'm not the best judge. But as a reader", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 59, "text": "- as a reader, it strikes me as an honest book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 60, "text": "Yeah. And I'm wondering if that level of honesty is something that you feel freer to have in your mid-80s now. Like, you know who you are now. You know what your life has been. You don't have to impress anybody. You don't have to worry about your reputation. It's already made.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's certainly meant to be an honest book, yes."}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 61, "text": "I want to quote you again - \"when you have seen many of your friends and family die, it is not so hard to think calmly about your own coming death. You will be following the path they have already taken. You need no belief in an afterlife to feel comforted by that thought.\" Why do you find that thought comforting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do feel that. And also, to be brutally honest, of course, a great many of the people I'm writing about, they're all dead, so they can't answer back. They can't say, oh, you've got that wrong, Claire"}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 62, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That I'd be following after those who died before me?"}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 63, "text": "Well, Claire Tomalin, it's really been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much. And I'm glad you decided to write your own story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's not logical because I think when you die, you cease to exist. But all the same, you can't help thinking that by the time you reach my age, 85, so many people you love have died, you can't h"}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 64, "text": "Claire Tomalin's new memoir is called \"A Life Of My Own.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. It was a delight talking to you."}
{"id": "647047722", "date": "2018-09-12", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 65, "text": "...My guests will be Michael Che and Colin Jost. They're preparing for a new season of \"Saturday Night Live.\" And they're getting ready to host the Emmys Monday night. I hope you'll join us. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our senior producer is Sam Briger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our associate producer for digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As character) It's Weekend Update with Colin Jost and Michael Che."}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 0, "text": "John Green, welcome to FRESH AIR. I'd like you to start by reading from your new book. But first, since her obsession is fear of getting C. difficile aka C-diff, why don't you describe what this really horrendous disease is?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, editor of the website TV Worth Watching, sitting in for Terry Gross. Today's guest, John Green, has a huge following, mostly among teenagers who are fans of his"}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 1, "text": "And just to get a little bit more graphic, I mean, C-diff leads to really extreme diarrhea. And in some people, particularly in elderly people, you can die if it's not treated. So it's a very serious and very problematic infection. And you're also going to refer in the reading I'm about to ask you to do to the microbiome, which is the collection of, you know, bacteria and microorganisms in the gut. And so the goal is to always have a healthy microbiome.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. C-Diff is a disease that usually is associated with antibiotic use in hospitals. And it basically - there's this bacteria in your gut. And if it grows out of control, you can become very, very s"}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 2, "text": "Oh, I know. It's a remarkable thing when you think about how your whole body - your skin, your gut - everything is just like populated with these microorganisms, which is scientifically fascinating. But the more you think about it, the kind of creepier it is. And for her, it's more than creepy. It's disturbing. It's very deeply disturbing. So I want you to do a reading. And this is from like a little more than midway through the book. And she has been friends with and is kind of starting to become girlfriend-boyfriend with a teenage boy. They're starting to kiss a little bit. And because of this whole microbiomes thing, it's making her really uncomfortable. And some of what we're going to be hearing is her intrusive OCD, her obsessive-compulsive thoughts interfering with the rest of her thoughts. So some of what you're saying is written in italics. And all the italicized parts are those intrusive thoughts interfering in her mind. OK. Would you do the reading?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, one of the really weird things about being a person is that about half of the cells inside of your body are not yours. They're microbes. And that's also something that is of some concern"}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 3, "text": "Thank you for reading that. That's John Green reading from his new novel, which is called \"Turtles All The Way Down.\" So of all the obsessive-compulsive thoughts you could have given your main character, Aza, why did you give her this obsession with C-diff?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) I told myself to be in this moment, to let myself feel his warmth on my skin. But now, his tongue was on my neck, wet and alive and microbial. And his hand was sneaking under my jacket, his "}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 4, "text": "So one of the things that she has are these thought spirals. I'm going to ask you to describe a thought spiral.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, partly because I can relate to it. I mean, I needed a place where I could make a connection with Aza in order to write about her, I think. And I've long how to fear of contamination from microor"}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 5, "text": "She uses the word invasives (ph) to describe the kind of thoughts that you can't control and that take over. Is that your word, or did you get that from therapy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the thing about a spiral is that if you follow it inward, it just keeps going forever. It just gets tighter and tighter. And it never actually ends. And that's kind of how Aza experiences her th"}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 6, "text": "You sprinkle quotes from great writers throughout the book. And the opening quote is from the philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer. And the quote is, \"man can do what he wills, but he cannot will what he wills.\" Why has that such resonance for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's my word. When I was first told about OCD, I was told that these thoughts are called intrusives. But I actually heard the word invasives for some reason. And that is what it's like for me."}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 7, "text": "So at what point did you decide that you would write a novel with a main character who has, as you do, obsessive-compulsive disorder?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, that's my experience of being a person. Like, it's not so much the problem of free will. It's the problem of not being able to define my will. I mean, one of the things that Aza finds so scary"}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 8, "text": "OCD sick?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In some ways the choice was made for me because I couldn't write about anything else. I tried to write a few other novels after \"The Fault In Our Stars\" came out, and I ended up having to abandon them"}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 9, "text": "So you've said that you have OCD. Tell us more about what form it has taken in your life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah. I just had a really poor period of mental health where for a few months I wasn't able to feel like I was in any control over what I was thinking about. And coming out of that period, this "}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 10, "text": "So what are the things you're most afraid of contaminating you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I guess the sort of dominant form that it's taken in my life is that I get worried - I get afraid of having an illness or having some kind of contamination inside of my body, and then I become u"}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 11, "text": "Oh, OK, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 12, "text": "That's fine. I don't want to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So yeah, that's the..."}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 13, "text": "You get what, squirmy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That's the only thing that I can't. If I talk - I can't talk directly about it because I get squirmy."}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 14, "text": "Would it be awkward, too, for us all to know? Like, say we met you in person sometime. Would it be awkward for you to have everybody know what that most vulnerable point was?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 15, "text": "Yeah, understandable...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 16, "text": "Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is John Green. He writes novels for young adults and his most famous one is \"The Fault In Our Stars,\" which was adapted into a movie. Now he has a new young adult novel called \"Turtles All The Way Down.\" And I should mention - I think a lot of adults read your books too. So we'll be back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's why."}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is John Green. He writes incredibly popular novels for young adults. His most famous one is \"The Fault In Our Stars\" about a teenage girl and her teenage boyfriend who both have cancer. And the new book is called \"Turtles All The Way Down,\" and the main character in this is a teenage girl who has OCD - and so does the author, John Green. So in the novel, there's a physical manifestation as well as obsessive-compulsive thoughts. The physical manifestation has to deal with digging the fingernail of one finger into the finger pad of another. Would you describe that physical manifestation of OCD?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's why."}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 18, "text": "Of course the more she does, the more she risks infection.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, so one of the way - she's been doing this since she was a little kid, and she just digs her thumbnail into her finger pad. Initially it was a way - she would ask her mom, why do I know that I'm "}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 19, "text": "So have you had a physical manifestation like that, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course, yeah. I mean, this is not uncommon that - these are not rational behaviors. So you know, I find that, like, trying to apply logic - at least in my own life, like, trying to apply logic to i"}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 20, "text": "For Aza, your main character, the OCD leads to a form of self-obsession which makes her self-absorbed and not tuned in to other people. And her best friend calls her out for it. Her best friend basically says, you probably don't even - you know, she lists things that she assumes Aza doesn't even know about her because she is so absorbed with herself. Was there a point in your life where you felt that your OCD was actually making you self-absorbed in a way that you didn't want to be, that you were neglecting other people, that you were losing a sense of empathy because you were looking within so much?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Not exactly that, but I count on my fingers as a way of calming myself. And so I think that's probably why I started thinking about it, and then I liked the idea that, you know, it's literally a"}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 21, "text": "Because you're focused on the wrong thing obsessively.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It has definitely affected my real-life relationships over the years in profound ways. I also wanted Aza to struggle with her ability to observe the world outside of herself because I think that is tr"}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 22, "text": "So the characters in your new book are also dealing with the deaths of parents. And in \"The Fault In Our Stars\" the two main characters are dealing with cancer that is likely to be terminal. So you know, death plays, like, a major role in your books, and I'd be interested in hearing why.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah because I can't notice the world outside of myself in the way that I want to because I'm so deeply and irrationally focused on stuff that's happening kind of within me."}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 23, "text": "It's big - yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it's a big problem. It's a big question."}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 24, "text": "It's a - it's a problem.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I think - and one of the things I like about teenagers is that they're looking - yeah, I mean, it's a big theme. But I think one of the..."}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 25, "text": "When was the first time you dealt with the death of somebody who you knew?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, yeah, I mean, I'm concerned about it. That's probably one of the reasons. But also, one of the things I like about teen characters is that they're grappling with the kind of questions around de"}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 26, "text": "How did the classmate die?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I was in high school, a classmate of mine died. And it was - we - I went to a very small school, and it was devastating to the whole school."}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 27, "text": "What was your way of talking to your friends about it in order to get through it? Like, how did you - do you remember any of those conversations, the - in which you tried to talk through not only the loss that you were experiencing, but also, like, why do these things happen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was in a car accident."}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 28, "text": "Was there any kind of, like, religious service that provided answers that you either found comforting or, you know, just, like, bromides that were not helpful?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean, I think when you're in that position, those questions about meaning in life and what meaning you're going to find in life, they stop being rhetorical questions, and they become matters o"}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 29, "text": "Are you still Episcopalian? And if so, what do you find in your spiritual tradition?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There were a lot of bromides that weren't helpful. I mean, I'm Episcopalian, and I worked briefly as a student chaplain at a children's hospital. You know, I thought about going to divinity school. Re"}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 30, "text": "You know, as I mentioned, in your last two novels, teenagers are dealing with death - death of their parents or the possibility of their own death because they have cancer. So you spent some time working as - what? - an assistant chaplain at a children's hospital. Is that what you said?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's interview last year with author John Green. He's famous for his young adult novels, including \"The Fault In Our St"}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 31, "text": "So what were you exposed to there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, a student chaplain, I think, is the technical term - but, yeah, either way."}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 32, "text": "Were you mostly...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, you're with people on the worst day of their lives. And people who work in children's hospitals for longer than the few months that I was there are real heroes to me because you see the wors"}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 33, "text": "Were you mostly talking with the parents or the children?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...To see that."}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 34, "text": "That was probably really helpful.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I was 22 at the time."}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 35, "text": "Did it feel awkward to be 22 and trying to help parents through a period when their child was, you know, dying or possibly dying? Did you feel like, who am I to help them? I'm 22.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And so if somebody had an X-box, I would play video games with them."}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 36, "text": "Because you're a father now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, of course. I did. Yeah. I felt unqualified in every possible way. But, you know, interestingly, I'm now 40, and I think I would still feel unqualified in every possible way. And, if anything, I "}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 37, "text": "Are you surprised that so many teenagers want to read stories about teenagers who have the kind of problems that make you feel different from everyone else, like OCD, or like having lost a parent who died or like having cancer and maybe dying yourself? I mean, so many teenagers are just absorbed with, you know, school, finding a new boyfriend or girlfriend, just, like, having friends, figuring out how to make your way without being bullied or hated by other kids.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 38, "text": ". But, I mean, you're dealing with really major problems in your book - not to make light of those other problems because when you're a teenager those other problems are really big.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 39, "text": "Do you remember your first girlfriend, your first crush, and can you tell us about it? Or would you rather not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. No, I think that's actually the answer, though, is that when you're a teenager, no matter what your experience is the problems are big, and they're in many cases new. In many cases, it's the fi"}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 40, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Sure."}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 41, "text": "Did you tell your parents?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, my first crush was in third grade. And I wore, like, matching O.P., like, shorts and a shirt to ask her to go with me, which was the parlance of the day. And I remember, like, you know, just f"}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 42, "text": "Did you kiss?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, I definitely told my parents. I was like, I have a girlfriend. And they were like, why?"}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 43, "text": ". So what did it mean to have a girlfriend?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No. No, I don't even think we held hands, actually."}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 44, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nothing. I mean..."}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 45, "text": "Do you remember the first time you fell in love for real?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think it must have been born from the stories I was reading. Like, I was really into, like, series books like \"Sweet Valley High\" and \"The Babysitters Club,\" and so it must have come from thos"}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 46, "text": "Did the OCD get in the way of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, that was in college."}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 47, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is John Green. He writes novels for young adults. The new one is called \"Turtles All The Way Down,\" and it's about a girl with obsessive compulsive disorder. His previous book is the best-seller \"The Fault In Our Stars,\" which was adapted into a film. We're going to take a short break here, and then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It got in the way of it in the sense that it's really difficult, I think, for anyone who is close to someone who's in terrible psychic pain to be near that pain - for a lot of reasons. One, you want t"}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 48, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is John Green. He writes novels for young adults. He's best known for \"The Fault In Our \"Stars,\" which was adapted into a film. His new novel is called \"Turtles All The Way Down,\" and it's about a teenage girl with OCD. \"The Fault In Our Stars,\" the one where it's written from the point of view of a teenage girl who has - is it stage 4, I think, cancer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It got in the way of it in the sense that it's really difficult, I think, for anyone who is close to someone who's in terrible psychic pain to be near that pain - for a lot of reasons. One, you want t"}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 49, "text": "So my understanding is that's based in part on one of your fans who actually was dying of cancer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 50, "text": "What were some of the things you took away from her life and death that you put in the book?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. My friend, Esther Earl - she died of cancer in 2010 when she was 16. And she was a really involved member of the community that grew up around the videos that my brother and I made and was reall"}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 51, "text": "Did writing the book convince you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Esther was just uncommonly empathetic. I don't know that that was because she was sick. I think it was partly because she was - you know, some people are just extraordinary. She was incredibly - in th"}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 52, "text": "You have two children. Is your point of view in your writing shifting a little bit from the teenager to the parent?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a good question. Yeah, I mean, I don't know that writing the book convinced me, but I do believe that."}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 53, "text": "I mean, the parent in the new novel is very - I find her a very sympathetic character. I mean, she clearly, like, loves her daughter so much and is trying so hard not to be the intrusive parent - you know, to have the right amount of connection and distance. But, you know, it's always so hard to find. And as Aza says to her at one point - Aza says to her mother, I'm doing my best, but I can't stay sane for you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 54, "text": "And your kids aren't even teenagers yet.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I do think that is probably a result of this change in my life that has caused me to suddenly be tremendously sympathetic to the parental point of view."}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 55, "text": "I want to quote something that Aza, your teenage character, says in the book or thinks in the book. (Reading) I hated my body. It disgusted me - its hair, its pinpricks of sweat, its scrawniness, skin pulled over a skeleton, an animated corpse. I wanted out, out of my body, out of my thoughts, out. But I was stuck inside of this thing like all the bacteria colonizing me. Is this a feeling you understand of, like, hating your body and feeling kind of disgusted by it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, God, no. They're 7 and 4, so I have a long, long way to go."}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 56, "text": "True, and there's times you probably want to trade in your brain also, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, definitely. I mean, for much of my life, I felt like I had to carry around the skin-encased bacterial colony in order to have a mind and a consciousness, you know? And also, I've often felt like"}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 57, "text": "Clean out the obsessive thoughts, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely, yeah. No, I mean, there's probably more..."}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 58, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Times when I want to trade in my brain, yeah. To be completely honest, like, it'd be great to be able to, like, turn my brain into the mechanic and have them just, like, fix some stuff up and then "}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 59, "text": "So I read that you said you were bullied when you were in - I don't know - junior high or high school - anything in particular you were bullied for - you know, that you were mocked for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That would be great."}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 60, "text": "They don't tell you as they're reading you up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I don't really know. They don't seem to need a great reason."}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 61, "text": "Did you fight back?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, yeah. It wasn't - that would have been nice, though, if they could have, like, sent a note that just explained - like, here are the three things you're being bullied for. And if you could work "}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 62, "text": "I never would have expected that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. This is going to surprise you, Terry, but I'm not really super able to fight back."}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 63, "text": "So explain what nerdfighters (ph) are and what that expression means to you. And do you wish you had that expression when you were a teenager?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I'm not a boxer."}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 64, "text": "Right. I mean, on the bright side, you could do your video vlog with your brother and have these, like, three to four minute kind of funny segments about everything - from OCD to, you know, like, what is the meaning of life to, like, science, math, history and literature.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, nerdfighters are people who fight for nerds and fight for nerd culture. It's the term used by people who are in the community that grew up around the videos Hank and I make. And I do wish that I"}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 65, "text": "Touring, touring.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean, making these videos with my brother has been, like, one of the great joys of my professional life. And I'm still one of Hank's first viewers. He uploads a video every Friday, and I'm sti"}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 66, "text": "So what's - what are your shows like when you're touring with your brother?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 67, "text": "OK, no jugglers or anything?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it's a little bit of a variety show. Hank plays songs about science. He plays music. And the vibe we're going for is like, you know, old-school variety show vibe."}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 68, "text": "And when did you realize you wanted to write?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No jugglers - maybe down the road, you know. Maybe we'll pick somebody up along the way."}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 69, "text": "But were they read by anybody is the question.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I always liked writing, but I thought of it like being an astronaut or being a professional athlete or something. I never thought of it as a realistic career goal. And in some ways, I still have"}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 70, "text": "Why were you starting to read a lot of young-adult books then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Not all of them, certainly. But that's when I started to feel like, OK, well, being - it's not quite like being a professional athlete or being an astronaut. Like, this is something that regular"}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 71, "text": "Oh, they asked you to read the young-adult books?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think partly because I was the youngest person at Booklist, so I was the closest thing they had to a young adult."}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 72, "text": "Oh, oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 73, "text": "So you were reviewing young-adult fiction and then decided you wanted to write it too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I also think..."}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 74, "text": "It makes sense. Why did that seem like a good fit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "647848731", "date": "2018-09-14", "guest": "John Green", "title": "For Novelist John Green, OCD Is Like An 'Invasive Weed' Inside His Mind", "question_index": 75, "text": "John Green, it's been great to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, there are a bunch of reasons, I think. I like the way that young-adult books are published. I like that science fiction and mystery and romance all live on the shelf together, you know, "}
{"id": "649492275", "date": "2018-09-19", "guest": "Ken Vogel", "title": "Manafort's Guilty Plea Details His Entanglement With Russian-Backed Oligarchs", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The next stage of the Mueller investigation could be shaped by the plea deal that Paul Manafort reached last Friday with federal prosecutors. The deal requires him to cooperate with the Mueller investigation and to answer fully, truthfully, completely and forthrightly questions about any and all matters prosecutors ask about. My guest, Ken Vogel, is a New York Times reporter who's been writing about Manafort since his days as Donald Trump's campaign manager. Manafort took that position after having worked as a campaign strategist and then lobbyist for the Russian-backed authoritarian president of Ukraine, Viktor Yanukovych. He was elected in 2010, then forced out four years later after a series of mass protests against him. While lobbying for Yanukovych in Washington, Manafort did not comply with the American law that required him to register as the agent of a foreign political person or country. Manafort used various deceptive, sometimes illegal, schemes to hide his connections to the lobbying efforts he was behind. Ken Vogel, welcome to FRESH AIR. Let's start with describing, like, the plea deal that Manafort made and why that's so important.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "649492275", "date": "2018-09-19", "guest": "Ken Vogel", "title": "Manafort's Guilty Plea Details His Entanglement With Russian-Backed Oligarchs", "question_index": 1, "text": "Could it take U.S. investigators into possible collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So Paul Manafort is pleading guilty to two counts. One is an obstruction of justice count. And one is a conspiracy count that lumps in any number of the other charges that were made against him "}
{"id": "649492275", "date": "2018-09-19", "guest": "Ken Vogel", "title": "Manafort's Guilty Plea Details His Entanglement With Russian-Backed Oligarchs", "question_index": 2, "text": "The Manafort trial and the documents released by Mueller along with the trial reveal a very deceptive lobbying campaign that Manafort waged on behalf of one of his clients, his major client of the period, Viktor Yanukovych, who became the authoritarian president of Ukraine. So let's talk about some of this deceptive lobbying. First of all, Manafort didn't want to register as a foreign lobbyist even though he was representing a foreign client. What are the regulations pertaining to a foreign lobbyist that Manafort didn't want to have to deal with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That is the big question. That's sort of the brass ring for which Mueller is reaching and Democrats and liberals hope that he is able to grasp. The lawyers for Donald Trump have said, no, they're not "}
{"id": "649492275", "date": "2018-09-19", "guest": "Ken Vogel", "title": "Manafort's Guilty Plea Details His Entanglement With Russian-Backed Oligarchs", "question_index": 3, "text": "So when Yanukovych was running for the presidency in 2010, Manafort's goal was to burnish Yanukovych's image and tarnish the image of his main political opponent, Yulia Tymoshenko. Why did Yanukovych's image need burnishing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So this is something that has really come into focus here in Washington, D.C., as a result of the Mueller investigation into not just Manafort, but some of these other peripheral figures in the "}
{"id": "649492275", "date": "2018-09-19", "guest": "Ken Vogel", "title": "Manafort's Guilty Plea Details His Entanglement With Russian-Backed Oligarchs", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Yanukovych was a former trucking director who was twice convicted of assault and had lost a bid for the presidency in 2004 amid concerns about allegations of vote rigging and ballot box stuffing"}
{"id": "649492275", "date": "2018-09-19", "guest": "Ken Vogel", "title": "Manafort's Guilty Plea Details His Entanglement With Russian-Backed Oligarchs", "question_index": 5, "text": "So before we get to how Manafort tried to support Yanukovych and his imprisonment of his former rival, let's talk about what happened to her. Yulia Tymoshenko, Yanukovych's former rival was imprisoned. What was she prosecuted for and is she still in prison?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so he managed to pull off really this political miracle of getting this guy elected by kind of straddling, you know, presenting Ukraine as a bridge and Yanukovych as a bridge between Russia and th"}
{"id": "649492275", "date": "2018-09-19", "guest": "Ken Vogel", "title": "Manafort's Guilty Plea Details His Entanglement With Russian-Backed Oligarchs", "question_index": 6, "text": "So before we get to what Manafort did, let's talk just a moment about the Trump campaign, which Manafort managed for a while. One of the slogans or chants that you always heard at Trump campaign rallies was lock her up, meaning lock up Hillary Clinton, his rival. Considering that Yanukovych had his rival locked up after the election and considering that Manafort was basically managing Yanukovych and then managed Trump, do you hear any echoes, any connections between those two things?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So she was prosecuted for a range of charges, including everything from an intent to bribe supreme court judges in Ukraine to misuse of public finances when she was in office to abuse of her office re"}
{"id": "649492275", "date": "2018-09-19", "guest": "Ken Vogel", "title": "Manafort's Guilty Plea Details His Entanglement With Russian-Backed Oligarchs", "question_index": 7, "text": "In the type of lobbying techniques that he used.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. There's sort of an eerie parallel there. I actually hadn't thought of that one. The one that I - that sort of jumped out to me is the call to drain the swamp that we heard so much from Donald Tr"}
{"id": "649492275", "date": "2018-09-19", "guest": "Ken Vogel", "title": "Manafort's Guilty Plea Details His Entanglement With Russian-Backed Oligarchs", "question_index": 8, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is New York Times reporter Ken Vogel. He covers the confluence of money, politics and influence for The New York Times. We're going to take a short break, and then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, he was a real revolutionary. He pioneered - I mean, he pioneered so many elements of what we now think of as K Street and the Washington influence industry, everything from initially cre"}
{"id": "649492275", "date": "2018-09-19", "guest": "Ken Vogel", "title": "Manafort's Guilty Plea Details His Entanglement With Russian-Backed Oligarchs", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is Ken Vogel, a reporter for The New York Times who covers the intersection of money, politics and influence for the Times. And he has covered the Paul Manafort trial and the documents that Mueller released that show some fascinating details about Manafort's lobbying on behalf of the former Ukrainian strongman, Viktor Yanukovych. So let's talk about some of the ways that Manafort tried to get around having to register as a lobbyist for a foreign government. So in order to do that, he created a group called the European Center for a Modern Ukraine that he claimed was an NGO, a nongovernment organization, which would mean he wasn't lobbying on behalf of a foreign government. So that would get him off the hook in terms of registering as a foreign lobbyist. So what was the European Center for a Modern Ukraine?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, he was a real revolutionary. He pioneered - I mean, he pioneered so many elements of what we now think of as K Street and the Washington influence industry, everything from initially cre"}
{"id": "649492275", "date": "2018-09-19", "guest": "Ken Vogel", "title": "Manafort's Guilty Plea Details His Entanglement With Russian-Backed Oligarchs", "question_index": 10, "text": "So when it comes to these two American lobbying firms and the European Center for a Modern Ukraine and Manafort and Yanukovych, who paid who? Like, how did the money flow?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the European Center for a Modern Ukraine was a front group. It was just that. It was a way to get around these lobbying rules in the United States. And the way that he used this group - first of"}
{"id": "649492275", "date": "2018-09-19", "guest": "Ken Vogel", "title": "Manafort's Guilty Plea Details His Entanglement With Russian-Backed Oligarchs", "question_index": 11, "text": "So he's setting up this front group, the European Center for a Modern Ukraine, to hire these American lobby groups while he's hiding himself and sending out memos saying there should be no fingerprints", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the money flowed largely through these overseas accounts that Manafort had set up in Cyprus. They had a variety of names. They were very much at the center of his trial in the Eastern District of V"}
{"id": "649492275", "date": "2018-09-19", "guest": "Ken Vogel", "title": "Manafort's Guilty Plea Details His Entanglement With Russian-Backed Oligarchs", "question_index": 12, "text": "on any of this. So I guess, until now, that was pretty successful.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the money flowed largely through these overseas accounts that Manafort had set up in Cyprus. They had a variety of names. They were very much at the center of his trial in the Eastern District of V"}
{"id": "649492275", "date": "2018-09-19", "guest": "Ken Vogel", "title": "Manafort's Guilty Plea Details His Entanglement With Russian-Backed Oligarchs", "question_index": 13, "text": "Oh, and you did some of it. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, during the 2016 campaign, there was some reporting on this. And in fact, it was what prompted..."}
{"id": "649492275", "date": "2018-09-19", "guest": "Ken Vogel", "title": "Manafort's Guilty Plea Details His Entanglement With Russian-Backed Oligarchs", "question_index": 14, "text": "And this story you just touched on is pretty amazing - that Tony Podesta, one of the people who lobbied on behalf of Manafort and Yanukovych, is the brother of John Podesta, who managed Hillary Clinton's campaign and had his emails hacked by Russians and then made public through WikiLeaks. So the team that Tony Podesta is representing, whether he is aware of it or not, you know, is Russian-backed Ukrainians. And the team that hacks his brother John Podesta's emails are the Russians. It's crazy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct. And so it was what appears to have prompted - based on documents that we have gotten through a lawsuit against the Department of Justice under the Freedom of Information Act - it appears - ou"}
{"id": "649492275", "date": "2018-09-19", "guest": "Ken Vogel", "title": "Manafort's Guilty Plea Details His Entanglement With Russian-Backed Oligarchs", "question_index": 15, "text": "So what are the questions? How much did these lobbying groups know about who was really paying them? Did they know that the European Center for a Modern Ukraine was basically a front group for Paul Manafort? Is that the major question?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it really is. There's a lot of, sort of, Shakespearean elements here. And the question of what Tony Podesta knew - and what others at his firm and others at Mercury Public Affairs knew - is pote"}
{"id": "649492275", "date": "2018-09-19", "guest": "Ken Vogel", "title": "Manafort's Guilty Plea Details His Entanglement With Russian-Backed Oligarchs", "question_index": 16, "text": "My guest is New York Times reporter Ken Vogel. We'll talk more about Manafort's deceptive lobbying practices after a break. And rock critic Ken Tucker will review a new album he says made him feel uplifted. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that is a central question. And Mueller's team released some internal emails from those two firms, the Podesta Group and Mercury Public Affairs, in which employees seemed to be revealing that th"}
{"id": "649492275", "date": "2018-09-19", "guest": "Ken Vogel", "title": "Manafort's Guilty Plea Details His Entanglement With Russian-Backed Oligarchs", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with New York Times reporter Ken Vogel, who covers the intersection of money, politics, and influence in Washington. We're talking about Paul Manafort, the lobbyist who served as Donald Trump's presidential campaign manager. After Manafort's trial, as part of the Mueller investigation, he was found guilty of eight charges, including bank fraud and hiding foreign bank accounts. Last week, he reached a plea deal with federal prosecutors in which he admitted to money laundering, bank fraud and foreign lobbying violations, and pledged to cooperate fully with the Mueller investigation. The violations he admitted to relate to his work lobbying on behalf of the Russian-backed Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych. When we left off, we were talking about the deceptive, sometimes illegal, practices Manafort used to circumvent having to register as a foreign lobbyist - a lobbyist of a foreign person or government. He hid his role by creating a front group and hiring other lobbyists to work on his behalf. So another group that Manafort worked with was the law firm Skadden Arps, which is - they do a lot of lobbying. And you say they were recruited by Manafort to do work related to Ukraine. And one of the people - like, one of the stars of this group is Greg Craig, who was President Obama's White House counsel. So that's an interesting connection. What did they do for Manafort?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that is a central question. And Mueller's team released some internal emails from those two firms, the Podesta Group and Mercury Public Affairs, in which employees seemed to be revealing that th"}
{"id": "649492275", "date": "2018-09-19", "guest": "Ken Vogel", "title": "Manafort's Guilty Plea Details His Entanglement With Russian-Backed Oligarchs", "question_index": 18, "text": "So there's another group I want to ask you about that Manafort set up as part of his lobbying on behalf of the Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych, and this is the Hapsburg Group. Like, what is that group? What was its purpose?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So what Skadden Arps did was to write what was billed as an independent report assessing Viktor Yanukovych's prosecution and eventual jailing of his rival, Yulia Tymoshenko. The goal, at least from Ma"}
{"id": "649492275", "date": "2018-09-19", "guest": "Ken Vogel", "title": "Manafort's Guilty Plea Details His Entanglement With Russian-Backed Oligarchs", "question_index": 19, "text": "I'm assuming that The New York Times didn't know that the op-ed that you refer to was basically planted through a group created by Manafort.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the Hapsburg Group was a group of former senior European politicians who Manafort and Gates and some of the lobbyists with whom they worked recruited to essentially vouch for Viktor Yanukovych and "}
{"id": "649492275", "date": "2018-09-19", "guest": "Ken Vogel", "title": "Manafort's Guilty Plea Details His Entanglement With Russian-Backed Oligarchs", "question_index": 20, "text": "So one of the really big questions that all of this raises is, what was Manafort doing running Donald Trump's presidential campaign? Is it total coincidence that the presidential race that was actually hacked by the Russians is this same race in which one of the candidates, Donald Trump, had a campaign manager during part of that campaign who had deep ties to Russian-backed Ukrainians and Ukrainian oligarchs who were connected to Putin?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, we did some reporting on it - on that. And we found that the person who facilitated it was a PR guy who is now deceased. He died in Afghanistan, sadly. But he was working with Rick Gates"}
{"id": "649492275", "date": "2018-09-19", "guest": "Ken Vogel", "title": "Manafort's Guilty Plea Details His Entanglement With Russian-Backed Oligarchs", "question_index": 21, "text": "During the period that Manafort was managing Trump's presidential campaign, Manafort through a third party sent a message to Oleg Deripaska. Deripaska is an aluminum magnate, a Russian oligarch with close ties to Putin. The email message sent through the third party was - said basically that if Deripaska needs private briefings, we can accommodate. That's from July 7, 2016. So what exactly do we know about that message and what Manafort intended - because that sounds like we're going to give you briefings about what's happening in the presidential campaign in the U.S. and you're a Russian oligarch with close ties to Putin. Like, what? Do you think Mueller, now that he has Manafort's cooperation, is going to be looking into, like, what did that mean; what was that about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's certainly a reasonable question, and there's been a lot of speculation on that. From Trump's perspective, I don't think that the Trump campaign was reaching out to and bringing on Paul Manafort b"}
{"id": "649492275", "date": "2018-09-19", "guest": "Ken Vogel", "title": "Manafort's Guilty Plea Details His Entanglement With Russian-Backed Oligarchs", "question_index": 22, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Ken Vogel. He covers the intersection of money, politics and influence for The New York Times. We're going to take a short break, then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. And just complicating things further for - at least for Manafort is the liaison - the intermediary who Manafort used to relay the message to Deripaska is Manafort's long-time right-hand ma"}
{"id": "649492275", "date": "2018-09-19", "guest": "Ken Vogel", "title": "Manafort's Guilty Plea Details His Entanglement With Russian-Backed Oligarchs", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. My guest is Ken Vogel. He covers the intersection of money, politics, and influence for The New York Times. He covered the Paul Manafort trials and the documents that Mueller released related to Paul Manafort and has been writing about Manafort's lobbying efforts - his covert lobbying efforts on behalf of former Russian-backed Ukrainian strongman Viktor Yanukovych. Remember when President Trump tweeted praise after the first Manafort trial because Manafort, quote, \"refused to break - make up stories in order to get a deal\" - I wonder what he's thinking now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. And just complicating things further for - at least for Manafort is the liaison - the intermediary who Manafort used to relay the message to Deripaska is Manafort's long-time right-hand ma"}
{"id": "649492275", "date": "2018-09-19", "guest": "Ken Vogel", "title": "Manafort's Guilty Plea Details His Entanglement With Russian-Backed Oligarchs", "question_index": 24, "text": "So meanwhile, President Trump has ordered the Department of Justice, the FBI and the Office of the Director of National Intelligence to declassify about 20 pages of an application for surveillance against Carter Page, who had been Trump's foreign policy aide in the campaign. And President Trump has ordered the Department of Justice, the FBI and the Office of the Director of National Intelligence to release all text messages relating to the Russia investigation from former FBI Director James Comey, former Deputy Director Andrew McCabe, former FBI employees Peter Strzok and Lisa Page and current Justice Department lawyer Bruce Ohr. What do you think is happening there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You would have to think, given the way that he characterized Michael Cohen, his long-time fixer's decision to plead guilty and cooperate with prosecutors, suggesting he was a rat, that he probab"}
{"id": "649492275", "date": "2018-09-19", "guest": "Ken Vogel", "title": "Manafort's Guilty Plea Details His Entanglement With Russian-Backed Oligarchs", "question_index": 25, "text": "The president's order to release these text messages and documents is very controversial. Why is it so controversial?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What's happening is President Trump is trying to build the case that this investigation was cooked up by his political opponents and was motivated by their desire to undermine his presidential campaig"}
{"id": "649492275", "date": "2018-09-19", "guest": "Ken Vogel", "title": "Manafort's Guilty Plea Details His Entanglement With Russian-Backed Oligarchs", "question_index": 26, "text": "So the president has the right to demand the release of these documents, but that doesn't mean he is correct or ethical in demanding it. Is there any kind of, like, umpire in a situation like this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, because there is an ongoing investigation. And it is essentially opening up the - at least, a piece of the investigation to public inspection at a time when there could be sensitive information "}
{"id": "649492275", "date": "2018-09-19", "guest": "Ken Vogel", "title": "Manafort's Guilty Plea Details His Entanglement With Russian-Backed Oligarchs", "question_index": 27, "text": "So the documents that the president is demanding be released are documents related to investigations of the president himself. It seems like an unusual move.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not that I'm aware of. I mean, certainly the court of public opinion and the Twittersphere is weighing in with ample opinions of various sides of this issue. And conservatives are saying that he has e"}
{"id": "649492275", "date": "2018-09-19", "guest": "Ken Vogel", "title": "Manafort's Guilty Plea Details His Entanglement With Russian-Backed Oligarchs", "question_index": 28, "text": "And I mean, this is information that Trump's own lawyers can use to potentially support Trump, though who knows what information they're going to get and what it's going to say?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is absolutely unusual, and it has drawn howls of protest from the law enforcement community."}
{"id": "649492275", "date": "2018-09-19", "guest": "Ken Vogel", "title": "Manafort's Guilty Plea Details His Entanglement With Russian-Backed Oligarchs", "question_index": 29, "text": "So you've been covering the Manafort trial and the Manafort story. The trial's over, Manafort is cooperating with Mueller. What's next for you? What are you going to be reporting on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's right. I mean, we've seen a lot of this already, and we have hints of what might be in it. And we do think that it probably will help Trump attempt to undermine the investigation or at le"}
{"id": "649492275", "date": "2018-09-19", "guest": "Ken Vogel", "title": "Manafort's Guilty Plea Details His Entanglement With Russian-Backed Oligarchs", "question_index": 30, "text": "Ken Vogel, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, a lot has come out of this trial and this prosecution of Manafort about other people with - people and firms with whom he worked and then more broadly about foreign lobbying in Washington, D"}
{"id": "649492275", "date": "2018-09-19", "guest": "Ken Vogel", "title": "Manafort's Guilty Plea Details His Entanglement With Russian-Backed Oligarchs", "question_index": 31, "text": "Ken Vogel is a reporter for The New York Times. After a break, our rock critic Ken Tucker will review a new album by singer-songwriter Aaron Lee Tasjan. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a pleasure to be with you."}
{"id": "652127648", "date": "2018-09-27", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist: Poland's Shift Toward Authoritarianism Is A 'Red Flag' For Democracy", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Is Democracy Dying? is the subject of the October issue of The Atlantic magazine. My guest, Anne Applebaum, has an article headlined on the cover as \"A Warning From Europe: The Worst Is Yet To Come.\" Polarization, conspiracy theories, attacks on the free press, an emphasis on loyalty over competence - these are patterns she sees in the U.S. and in several countries in Europe and Eastern Europe, including Poland, which is the country her article focuses on. Applebaum is American and lives in Poland, where she is also a citizen and her husband is a former foreign minister. She also lives part of the time in England, where she runs a research program on disinformation at the London School of Economics. Applebaum is a columnist for The Washington Post, covering national politics and foreign policy with a special focus on Europe and Russia. Her book \"Red Famine: Stalin's War On Ukraine\" has just come out in paperback. Anne Applebaum, welcome back to FRESH AIR. So your article is part of a special issue in The Atlantic called Is Democracy Dying? So you're living in London now. You're looking at Europe, Eastern Europe. Are you concerned about the future of democracy on an international level? Do you see a larger trend?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "652127648", "date": "2018-09-27", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist: Poland's Shift Toward Authoritarianism Is A 'Red Flag' For Democracy", "question_index": 1, "text": "So let's look at Poland, the subject of your new article. You describe Poland as one of the most polarized societies in Europe and as openly authoritarian. Your husband was - he worked in the government. In December 31, 1999, New Year's Eve, when you and he threw a big party for journalist friends from London and Berlin, a few diplomats based in Warsaw and Polish friends - and you say on New Year's Eve 1999, they all believed in democracy and the rule of law, but now half the people who were at that party won't talk to the other half. You say you would cross the street to avoid some of the people who were at the party, and they'd probably do the same. So what's the side that's no longer your friends? What are they politically identified with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. I have been concerned about democracy on an international level for several years now actually. And I think I first started writing about it in 2014 and '15, back when I admit that I didn'"}
{"id": "652127648", "date": "2018-09-27", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist: Poland's Shift Toward Authoritarianism Is A 'Red Flag' For Democracy", "question_index": 2, "text": "The transition to democracy from communism.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We were roughly - and I mean very roughly - associated with what you would call the center-right, people who were admirers of Margaret Thatcher, people who were anti-communists, people who thought abo"}
{"id": "652127648", "date": "2018-09-27", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist: Poland's Shift Toward Authoritarianism Is A 'Red Flag' For Democracy", "question_index": 3, "text": "So the people who identify more now with the authoritarian government in Poland - they're identified with the Law and Justice party, which is currently in power in Poland. What does that party stand for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The transition to democracy from communism in 1989, which really occupied the whole of the 1990s."}
{"id": "652127648", "date": "2018-09-27", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist: Poland's Shift Toward Authoritarianism Is A 'Red Flag' For Democracy", "question_index": 4, "text": "How have the courts been changed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I should say it's not authoritarian yet. It's still - Poland is still a democracy. There's still independent media. There's still opposition political parties. But the tendency of the ruling part"}
{"id": "652127648", "date": "2018-09-27", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist: Poland's Shift Toward Authoritarianism Is A 'Red Flag' For Democracy", "question_index": 5, "text": "And what about changes in the media in Poland?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In the most recent change, for example, they - Poland has a supreme court that consists of several dozen justices actually. It's different from the U.S. But they passed a law that forces judges over t"}
{"id": "652127648", "date": "2018-09-27", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist: Poland's Shift Toward Authoritarianism Is A 'Red Flag' For Democracy", "question_index": 6, "text": "You've used the word illiberal. I'm seeing the word illiberal used more and more. What does it mean to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the media is subtler. Some parts of it are subtler. As I've said, the state media has been taken over and, instead of being a neutral source of information, is now a party political broadcaster. It"}
{"id": "652127648", "date": "2018-09-27", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist: Poland's Shift Toward Authoritarianism Is A 'Red Flag' For Democracy", "question_index": 7, "text": "You're also ready to give up on words like left and right. Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a tough word to use because when you - actually, the term illiberal democracy is a contradiction in terms. I mean, I don't think you can have a democracy that isn't liberal, that doesn't have a b"}
{"id": "652127648", "date": "2018-09-27", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist: Poland's Shift Toward Authoritarianism Is A 'Red Flag' For Democracy", "question_index": 8, "text": "Are there a lot of conspiracy theories now circulating in Poland and being published in state-run media?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Left and right I think were words that described the politics, you know, of the last half century or so when the real political battle was mostly economic and it was a battle about the size of the sta"}
{"id": "652127648", "date": "2018-09-27", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist: Poland's Shift Toward Authoritarianism Is A 'Red Flag' For Democracy", "question_index": 9, "text": "You have been the target of some conspiratorial thinking. What's the conspiracy about you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in Poland there is one big conspiracy theory. Or, as I've described in the article, it's a medium-sized conspiracy theory because it doesn't seek to explain everything. It's the theory that a pl"}
{"id": "652127648", "date": "2018-09-27", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist: Poland's Shift Toward Authoritarianism Is A 'Red Flag' For Democracy", "question_index": 10, "text": "You must have kind of found it odd and strangely funny to be accused of having way more power than you have", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the conspiracy about me is that I'm the American-born wife of a Polish politician, which is always odd actually in any country, to be fair. And so people are always interested in me. I'm also a "}
{"id": "652127648", "date": "2018-09-27", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist: Poland's Shift Toward Authoritarianism Is A 'Red Flag' For Democracy", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the conspiracy about me is that I'm the American-born wife of a Polish politician, which is always odd actually in any country, to be fair. And so people are always interested in me. I'm also a "}
{"id": "652127648", "date": "2018-09-27", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist: Poland's Shift Toward Authoritarianism Is A 'Red Flag' For Democracy", "question_index": 12, "text": "So what was the point of targeting you and making it seem like you were responsible for controlling the Jewish-controlled media and that you were controlling, like, negative things about Poland that were being written?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, as I said, that - we tried to make it into a joke. You know, I'm all powerful. Of course there was - and I - this was very hard for me to admit because I've lived in Poland for - on and off for "}
{"id": "652127648", "date": "2018-09-27", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist: Poland's Shift Toward Authoritarianism Is A 'Red Flag' For Democracy", "question_index": 13, "text": "Anne, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Anne Applebaum. And she's based in London and Poland. She's a columnist for The Washington Post. And her new article is in the new special edition of The Atlantic magazine. And the special issue is called, Is Democracy Dying? Her article is called \"Polarization In Poland: A Warning From Europe.\" We'll talk more after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think they needed to explain to their followers why there was all this bad press, and they needed to explain away the arguments of that press. You know, people were writing as people wrote abo"}
{"id": "652127648", "date": "2018-09-27", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist: Poland's Shift Toward Authoritarianism Is A 'Red Flag' For Democracy", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Anne Applebaum. Her new article, \"Polarization In Poland: A Warning From Europe,\" is part of The Atlantic Magazine's special issue Is Democracy Dying? She's a columnist for The Washington Post, covering national politics and foreign policy with a special focus on Europe and Russia. Her book \"Red Famine: Stalin's War On Ukraine\" has just come out in paperback. Is the move toward authoritarianism in Poland affecting your day-to-day life when you live there? And I don't mean personal attacks on you but just day-to-day life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think they needed to explain to their followers why there was all this bad press, and they needed to explain away the arguments of that press. You know, people were writing as people wrote abo"}
{"id": "652127648", "date": "2018-09-27", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist: Poland's Shift Toward Authoritarianism Is A 'Red Flag' For Democracy", "question_index": 15, "text": "What kind of repercussions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So very slowly, it will begin to. The crucial question is, what happens to the courts - because once there ceases to be a reliable judicial system - and by the way, Poland's court system right now is "}
{"id": "652127648", "date": "2018-09-27", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist: Poland's Shift Toward Authoritarianism Is A 'Red Flag' For Democracy", "question_index": 16, "text": "My guest is Anne Applebaum, a columnist for The Washington Post. Her new article warning about the move toward authoritarianism in Poland and other parts of Europe is in the October issue of The Atlantic, which focuses on the question, Is Democracy Dying? We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, if you if you have a court system which is politicized - and so - I don't know - imagine you have a car accident, and one of the people you have an accident with is a member of the government. A"}
{"id": "652127648", "date": "2018-09-27", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist: Poland's Shift Toward Authoritarianism Is A 'Red Flag' For Democracy", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross back with Anne Applebaum, who has a warning from Europe. Several countries there are moving toward authoritarianism with increasing polarization, attacks on the free press, conspiracy theories and an emphasis on loyalty over competence in government and civil service positions. She's seeing some similar patterns in the U.S. She has an article in the new issue of The Atlantic, an issue devoted to the question, Is Democracy Dying? The main focus in her article is Poland. Applebaum is a Washington Post columnist who lives in Poland, where her husband is a former foreign minister. She also lives part of the time in England, where she runs a research program on disinformation at the London School of Economics. So your article in The Atlantic is really about why intellectuals - why engaged intellectuals interested in politics - why many of them have moved in support of a more authoritarian government. And, you know, democracy in Poland is so new. It was only in 1989 that the solidarity movement really took hold and then overthrew the Soviets and formed a democracy in Poland. Democracy in Poland is very new. So why would intellectuals - not all intellectuals but a lot of them in Poland - be moving in an anti-democratic direction?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, if you if you have a court system which is politicized - and so - I don't know - imagine you have a car accident, and one of the people you have an accident with is a member of the government. A"}
{"id": "652127648", "date": "2018-09-27", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist: Poland's Shift Toward Authoritarianism Is A 'Red Flag' For Democracy", "question_index": 18, "text": "You're not describing a philosophy, an ideology that's holding this together. You're describing, like, resentment and a desire for power and the feeling that they had been passed over earlier on and now they're getting what they want.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's because democracy wasn't working for them. Democracy is - liberal democracy, as we defined it, involves a series of competition, so meritocracy in the civil service, competitive elections"}
{"id": "652127648", "date": "2018-09-27", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist: Poland's Shift Toward Authoritarianism Is A 'Red Flag' For Democracy", "question_index": 19, "text": "It was a worker's movement in Poland that initiated the successful drive to make Poland a democracy. The Solidarity union movement was like a movement of workers. Is there a lot of worker opposition now in Poland to the move toward authoritarianism, the move away from democracy that workers worked so hard to create?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. The comparison I made, which I know is one that irritates them, is to Lenin's one-party state. So, you know, Lenin is - you know, the Bolsheviks are remembered for their Marxism. But actually, th"}
{"id": "652127648", "date": "2018-09-27", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist: Poland's Shift Toward Authoritarianism Is A 'Red Flag' For Democracy", "question_index": 20, "text": "So recently, the president of Poland, Andrzej Duda - and the president is less powerful than the prime minister. So the president of Poland recently met with President Trump. And one of the things that the president of Poland said was, I would very much like for us to set up permanent American bases in Poland, which we would call Fort Trump. What was your reaction when you heard that? How did you interpret that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's a lot of opposition in general to them. One of the reasons I'm quite hopeful about Poland is that it's been clear that, I mean, millions of people, in fact, have been willing to demonstrate ag"}
{"id": "652127648", "date": "2018-09-27", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist: Poland's Shift Toward Authoritarianism Is A 'Red Flag' For Democracy", "question_index": 21, "text": "A lot of people in the United States are concerned that we're moving toward illiberalism. What's your perspective of what's happening in America in the Trump administration, seeing it in the context of what's happening in Europe as several countries move further toward the far right, further toward authoritarianism?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the Poles have wanted a greater military - American military presence in Poland for many decades. Several Polish administrations, including my husband, have asked for that. But, of course, what "}
{"id": "652127648", "date": "2018-09-27", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist: Poland's Shift Toward Authoritarianism Is A 'Red Flag' For Democracy", "question_index": 22, "text": "So you describe Poland as moving toward an authoritarian government. Viktor Orban has moved Hungary more toward authoritarianism. What other countries do you see in Europe and in Eastern Europe moving toward the far-right, toward authoritarianism?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Trump uses the language of illiberalism all the time when he talks about the fake news media, by which he means The New York Times and CNN, when he criticizes a judge for being Mexican as he did at on"}
{"id": "652127648", "date": "2018-09-27", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist: Poland's Shift Toward Authoritarianism Is A 'Red Flag' For Democracy", "question_index": 23, "text": "Let's take a short break here and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Anne Applebaum and her new article is in the Atlantic magazine's special issue titled Is Democracy Dying? Her article is called \"Polarization In Poland: A Warning From Europe.\" She's a columnist for The Washington Post, and she spends her time - she's American with Polish citizenship. She divides her time between Poland and England. And at the London School of Economics, she runs a research program on disinformation. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So there are quite a number of parties that are not yet fully in control of the government that I would also describe as illiberal. So one of them, for example, is the Northern League, which is the - "}
{"id": "652127648", "date": "2018-09-27", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist: Poland's Shift Toward Authoritarianism Is A 'Red Flag' For Democracy", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR and if you're just joining us, my guest is Anne Applebaum. Her new article, \"Polarization in Poland: A Warning From Europe\" is about Poland's move toward the far-right, and it's part of a special issue of The Atlantic magazine titled, Is Democracy Dying? She's a columnist for The Washington Post who divides her time between London and Poland. She runs a research program on disinformation at the London School of Economics. You recently wrote, maybe we in the United States underestimated the degree to which our Constitution, designed in the 18th century, has proved insufficient to the demands of the 21st century. Can you elaborate on that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So there are quite a number of parties that are not yet fully in control of the government that I would also describe as illiberal. So one of them, for example, is the Northern League, which is the - "}
{"id": "652127648", "date": "2018-09-27", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist: Poland's Shift Toward Authoritarianism Is A 'Red Flag' For Democracy", "question_index": 25, "text": "You know, you've said that a lot of Americans assume that if the Trump presidency is a bit of an anomaly, that when the presidency is over, then America will return, and American institutions will return to the status quo. You question that. And I wonder on what grounds you question that America will return to the status quo?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When it was originally written, our Constitution was designed with the idea that it should - could contain a president who was a populist, who was a rabble-rouser, who sought to destroy institutions. "}
{"id": "652127648", "date": "2018-09-27", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist: Poland's Shift Toward Authoritarianism Is A 'Red Flag' For Democracy", "question_index": 26, "text": "America has a democracy that's hundreds of years old, whereas Polish democracy is relatively new. Hungary's democracy, relatively new. So do you think the things that you are seeing in Eastern Europe are comparable to anything that might happen in America because our institutions in America have withstood the test of time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well we, see that - we see the Trump administration. When the Trump administration undermines norms, when it for example, establishes the fact that it's OK to put pressure on your department of Justic"}
{"id": "652127648", "date": "2018-09-27", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist: Poland's Shift Toward Authoritarianism Is A 'Red Flag' For Democracy", "question_index": 27, "text": "You know, you mentioned the Civil War, but that's often used as an example of the strength of America and democracy. Even after the Civil War, we recovered and maintained our democratic institutions.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Our institutions in America have withstood the test of time with one or two large exceptions, for example, the Civil War. Our constitutional order has broken down before. And just because it's been in"}
{"id": "652127648", "date": "2018-09-27", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist: Poland's Shift Toward Authoritarianism Is A 'Red Flag' For Democracy", "question_index": 28, "text": "You're a columnist for The Washington Post. You were formerly on the Post's editorial board. What do you think the consequences are and might be in the future of President Trump's attacks on The Washington Post, The New York Times, CNN and other media?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We did recover after the Civil War, but the Civil War was a breakdown. And Americans were killing one another in very large numbers. And what's to say that couldn't happen again?"}
{"id": "652127648", "date": "2018-09-27", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist: Poland's Shift Toward Authoritarianism Is A 'Red Flag' For Democracy", "question_index": 29, "text": "Have you seen that happen in Europe?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think we can already see the impact of Trump's attack on the media. And the impact has been, of course, to reduce the believability of the media or reduce the credibility of the media in the eyes of"}
{"id": "652127648", "date": "2018-09-27", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist: Poland's Shift Toward Authoritarianism Is A 'Red Flag' For Democracy", "question_index": 30, "text": "Well, Anne Applebaum, I want to thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I think the undermining of the press has been a factor in the rise of illiberal parties and the rise of populist parties in almost every single European country. And almost all of them, you know,"}
{"id": "652127648", "date": "2018-09-27", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist: Poland's Shift Toward Authoritarianism Is A 'Red Flag' For Democracy", "question_index": 31, "text": "Anne Applebaum's the article about the move toward authoritarianism in Poland and other countries in Europe is in the October issue of The Atlantic, an issue focused on the question, Is Democracy Dying? Her book \"Red Famine: Stalin's War on Ukraine\" has just come out in paperback. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much."}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Robert Redford has said that his new film, \"The Old Man & The Gun\" would be his final film performance. And then he said he shouldn't have said that. Nevertheless, we're going to take this opportunity to look back on his early years, his childhood and his early acting career. In the new film he plays a man who looks quite dignified and gentlemanly, and has robbed banks all his life, done prison time and broken out of prison. In this scene, after starting a romantic relationship with a woman played by Sissy Spacek, he tells her about his profession and she doesn't believe it.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 1, "text": "My most recent interview with Robert Redford was in 2013, after the release of his film \"All Is Lost\" in which he was the only character. New York Times film critic A.O. Scott called it the performance of a lifetime. When we spoke, before talking about his past, we talked about \"All Is Lost.\" He played a man alone on a small yacht in the Indian Ocean. Early in the film, a stray shipping container rams into the yacht, leaving a hole. When a storm hits his life is in jeopardy but he has to remain calm and resourceful. It was an incredibly physically demanding role. There's no dialogue in the film, just voiceover. Here's Redford in the beginning of the film reading a letter he's writing. We don't know who he's writing to.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Forrest Tucker) OK, well, let's take this place. This place is not my style. Say it was a bank. And say that that camera up there, that was really a teller's window and that lady standing there wa"}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 2, "text": "Robert Redford, welcome back to FRESH AIR. That's such a stirring opening for the beginning of the film. You read that letter as if it were a poem. Did you want to know your character's backstory, like who he's talking to? You assume it's family. You don't really know anything about who he's writing to, what his life has been like, why he's out in this yacht in the middle of the Indian Ocean. Did you have to know this yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Our Man, reading) 13 of July, 4:50 P.M. I'm sorry. I know that means little at this point, but I am. I tried. I think you would all agree that I tried - to be true, to be strong, to be kind, to lo"}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 3, "text": "So the director said, referring to the reaction he expected you to have when first reading this script, he said, Redford's either going to say hell yes, this sounds amazing or he's going to say, why in the world would I do that? I have nothing to prove. Why would I put myself through that? And you really do put yourself through a lot in the movie. I mean, you're being pelted by water through much of it. I mean, your yacht is flooded, so, like, you're wading in water. I know you shot some of this in a tank and not in the ocean, but some of it was, I believe, shot in the ocean. So you're out...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In the beginning, I thought I needed to ask questions to the director, J.C. Chandor. But frankly, Terry, I was very drawn to what you did not know about this. I was very drawn to what was not said. Th"}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 4, "text": "...In the ocean under the hot sun. You're in storms. I mean, it seems like it was a grueling shoot. Give us a sense of some of the things that you had to endure. Like, when you're in the storm, in one of the storms and, you know, you're being rained on, what are you experiencing? How are you protecting yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 5, "text": "Now, I read that during some of the filming, because of all the water that was attacking you, you got an ear infection and I think temporarily lost hearing, 60 percent of your hearing in one ear. Is that accurate?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was a real - first of all, it was a real storm because the, yes, as you say, a lot of it was on the open water. But when we had to get into the really tough stuff, we went into a giant tank w"}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 6, "text": "Is it temporary?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah it is."}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 7, "text": "So I hate to put it this way, but if you had it to do over again, would you have saved your hearing and said no to the film?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wish it was. It's sort of permanent."}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 8, "text": "You know, when the credits roll, it says cast, Robert Redford - and that's it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no. The hearing thing isn't that bad. And I would have done what I did. I would have done it all over again. I would be happy to do it again. I may not be able to, but I would be happy to try."}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 9, "text": "You are the cast. And then after that, there's this like long scroll of, you know, camera people and effects people and the people who dealt with the fishes and the people on the ships. And I'm thinking, like, this is a huge group of people working on the film, and you're like the only person ever on camera. That must have been such an odd position.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's embarrassing."}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 10, "text": "I'm surprised you saw it. Don't you sometimes not even see your films?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I saw that - you know, I've only seen the film once."}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 11, "text": "But anyway, you were saying.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sometimes, yes. Sometimes, I've not seen - some films I've not seen."}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 12, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a whole other story. But anyway - when - the first and only time I saw it was at the Cannes Film Festival. And so when the film - because, you know, they boo films there."}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 13, "text": "You know, a couple of years ago, there was a biography of you written by Michael Feeney Callan. And I was reading that and was really surprised to learn that, as a child, you had polio. I mean, you're such a physical person. You're so athletic and so physically fit. You needed to be in order to do \"All Is Lost.\" And the thought of you being paralyzed for a while as a child was shocking to me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so when the lights came down, I'm thinking, geez, this could go either way. And I'm sitting here in a tux. How embarrassing to be in a tuxedo and be booed. You know, so I'm sitting there thinking,"}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 14, "text": "Sure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 15, "text": "Were you paralyzed at all?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It wasn't a severe case. I think we should - you know, I want to make sure we get this straight. It wasn't an iron lung case. It was a case of mild polio, but it was severe enough to put me in bed for"}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 16, "text": "And - tell me if I'm getting too personal here - so soon after you had the polio, your mother gave birth to twins who died shortly after birth. I'm just thinking that's a lot of trauma at one time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no. I was down. I was - I couldn't move very well, but I was not paralyzed."}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 17, "text": "Your mother died when you were 18. She was sick. I'm not sure what she died of. How did that change the course of your life? Did you have to, like, rewrite your plans?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I guess it depends on how you're raised and what your genealogy is. You know, family - you come from maybe a dark - more of a dark family - immigrated from Ireland and Scotland and didn't talk m"}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 18, "text": "You went to college. And from what I've read, academics was not your thing so much and that you did a lot of drinking and rode motorcycles...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't know that it changed anything at the time. She was a wonderful person. She died very young. She was full of life, full of laughter, full of love. She was out there. I mean, she would tak"}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 19, "text": "...Or drag races...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 20, "text": "...Or whatever.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yeah - the whole thing."}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 21, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The whole thing."}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 22, "text": "You talking about Sundance?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, not - I don't know about that because that came a little bit later. It was really - I went to college to get out of Los Angeles. I went to college because it was Colorado, and it was the mountai"}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 23, "text": "We're listening to my 2013 interview with Robert Redford, recorded after the release of his film \"All Is Lost.\" He stars in the new film \"The Old Man & The Gun.\" We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 2013 interview with Robert Redford.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 25, "text": "So not long after shooting \"Butch Cassidy,\" you cofounded a new organization called Education Youth and Recreation to promote alternative films on university campuses. This was really...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 26, "text": "It was a big mistake? Why was it a big mistake?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that was a big mistake."}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 27, "text": "Did you lose money personally on that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, because at that time, I was already beginning to feel the urge to do something that would be maybe more supporting more independent-type films. The idea was that we would get some funding togeth"}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 28, "text": "The roots of Sundance?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I didn't have my own money into it, but I suspect that over time, if I look back on it, that was probably the..."}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 29, "text": "It's interesting that back in - what? - the late '60s, early '70s you were already thinking in those - in that direction.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...The genesis of what later became - so yeah."}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 30, "text": "Well, yeah, it was interesting. Taking the films to college campuses failed, so you started on your own campus, and people would come to you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And it was different then because, you know, one of the beauties was that I was able to work in both - within the mainstream. In those days, the studios would allow for smaller films to be made "}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 31, "text": "Do you try to see a lot of the films that come out of Sundance?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For a guy that never graduated from anything, that's pretty interesting."}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 32, "text": "Listening back to my 2013 interview with Robert Redford, who stars in the new film \"The Old Man & The Gun.\" After a break, we'll talk about his childhood, his early acting career on episodic TV shows and the film that made him a star, \"Butch Cassidy And The Sundance Kid.\" I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I try to, yeah. I sometimes don't get to see all of them. It's been a little - in the beginning, it was more fun. It's not quite the fun anymore it was when it was just starting 'cause you're uphill. "}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 33, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my 2013 interview with Robert Redford. He stars in the new film \"The Old Man & The Gun.\" We're looking back on his early years when he got his start as an actor.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I try to, yeah. I sometimes don't get to see all of them. It's been a little - in the beginning, it was more fun. It's not quite the fun anymore it was when it was just starting 'cause you're uphill. "}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 34, "text": "You did a lot of episodic TV early in your career in the early 1960s - \"Maverick,\" \"Rescue 8,\" \"The Deputy,\" \"Playhouse 90,\" \"Perry Mason,\" \"Naked City,\" \"The Twilight Zone\"...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I try to, yeah. I sometimes don't get to see all of them. It's been a little - in the beginning, it was more fun. It's not quite the fun anymore it was when it was just starting 'cause you're uphill. "}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 35, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hey, now Terry - Perry Mason - Now, look..."}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 36, "text": "What?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Do you know what the title of that - that was what, 1959? You know what the title of that was?"}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 37, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"The Case Of The Treacherous Toupee.\""}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 38, "text": "Wait; who had the toupee? Was it - wasn't you, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was the name of it. I was so excited to have a job, you know?"}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 39, "text": "I wanted to play a clip from your early episodic TV years and was thinking, well, I'm a big fan of \"Route 66.\" I have the box set.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I couldn't remember now. It wasn't Raymond Burr. But somebody did, some blond - but those were your apprenticeship years. And it's always - one of the things that's sort of been weird is to see yourse"}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 40, "text": "Oh, yeah, I love that show. I loved it as a kid, and I love it looking back at it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, really?"}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 41, "text": "Hey, I was alive then. A lot of people weren't.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As a kid - thanks a lot. What were you - 10? - when I did my segment?"}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 42, "text": "So anyway, so I figured, whoa, let's do a clip from \"Route 66.\" And then I'm reading your biography, and I read this line on page 87 - and that you're saying to your agent, I'd rather rot than be remembered for \"Route 66\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What I liked about \"Route 66\" was not so much the show as it was the route because I remember hitchhiking as a kid back and forth on Route 66 because there were no freeways then. There were no turnpik"}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 43, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What I liked about \"Route 66\" was not so much the show as it was the route because I remember hitchhiking as a kid back and forth on Route 66 because there were no freeways then. There were no turnpik"}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 44, "text": "You're quoted as saying that. What can I say?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I said that?"}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 45, "text": "Yeah, yeah. So this is - you don't even remember doing it? - this is from a 1961 episode with Nehemiah Persoff as your father. And it's set in a mill town in a Polish-American community. And, like, you've gone off to out-of-town college, so you've gotten out of the mill town. But you're back on a college break. And the episode opens with you chasing after your girlfriend, who's running away in the woods. And you're not trying to attack her or anything. You're just trying to catch up to her and to reach her and to communicate with her. She accidentally kind of falls off this hill and hits her head and dies. You don't know what to do. So you don't call the cops. You don't tell anybody. You try to tell your father, but your father just doesn't want to hear anything. You're having trouble communicating with him. He doesn't want to hear it. Later, the police discover her dead. You're implicated in her death. So here's you trying to explain to your father, played by Nehemiah Persoff, what was really going on with your girlfriend and what was really going on with your relationship with your father.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Am I? I can't remember the show. Do you have a clip, you say?"}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 46, "text": "So your voice sounds, you know, so much different. It's higher.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Janosh) Have I ever, ever, ever been able to come to you, papa, with anything that was my own idea? Haven't you always decided everything for me? Haven't you decided everything for me always - who"}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 47, "text": "The director of \"All Is Lost,\" yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah, I was recently - J.C. and I - J.C. Chandor and I were at a festival."}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 48, "text": "Oh, acting with Charles Laughton must have been so interesting. But there's a great story that's told in your biography about the slap.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Director of \"All Is Lost\" - J.C and I were at a festival, and they ran clips of my career that I had never seen. They had clips going all the way back all the way up to now. And it was very uncomforta"}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 49, "text": "That's such a great story. And it's so interesting that you have such a vivid memory of doing that \"Playhouse 90\" edition and of the Charles Laughton story and no memory of \"Route 66\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, he was intimidating. It was one of my first parts. And there was a scene with George MacCready, who played my commanding officer. And it's during a pogrom, and they're calling out names in t"}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 50, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, he was intimidating. It was one of my first parts. And there was a scene with George MacCready, who played my commanding officer. And it's during a pogrom, and they're calling out names in t"}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 51, "text": "\"Your Show Of Shows\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it's because \"Playhouse 90\" was such a big deal as a kid. There were two shows on television - the \"Sid Caesar Show\" - I forgot the name of it..."}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 52, "text": "We're listening back to my 2013 interview with Robert Redford, who stars in the new film \"The Old Man & The Gun.\" We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Show Of Shows,\" yeah. And it would come to Los Angeles via kinescope I think. And \"Playhouse 90\" - those two shows were the top of the line on drama and comedy. And it made a huge impact on me as a k"}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 53, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 2013 interview with Robert Redford. We've been talking about how he got started acting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Show Of Shows,\" yeah. And it would come to Los Angeles via kinescope I think. And \"Playhouse 90\" - those two shows were the top of the line on drama and comedy. And it made a huge impact on me as a k"}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 54, "text": "So skipping ahead to 1969, you make \"Butch Cassidy And The Sundance Kid\" with Paul Newman. And this is the movie that makes you kind of iconic. Had you - did you already know how to ride horses? Did you like Westerns when you were making this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Show Of Shows,\" yeah. And it would come to Los Angeles via kinescope I think. And \"Playhouse 90\" - those two shows were the top of the line on drama and comedy. And it made a huge impact on me as a k"}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 55, "text": "He was originally supposed to be the Sundance Kid, and you were supposed to be Butch Cassidy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, I knew how to ride horses. I loved horses. I liked doing my own stunts when I could. When it first came up, because of the age difference between Paul and I, which was like 12, 13 years - "}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 56, "text": "Would you mind if I played a scene?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's right. The original title of the script was \"The Sundance Kid And Butch Cassidy.\" That was the original title that Goldman had written. And Newman was to play Sundance. But he had played "}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 57, "text": "OK. So this is kind of a famous scene where, you know, you're both bank and train robbers. And at this point, you're not exactly surrounded, but you're cornered. You're on...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm mmm."}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 58, "text": "A ledge, yeah. And on top of you on this, you know, rocky ledge is the posse that's hunting you down. You got no place to turn. You've got no place to go except for the water that's underneath. And that's - you're up really, really high, and it's a very rocky...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A ledge."}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 59, "text": "...River or stream. But anyways, as Butch Cassidy is trying to figure out what their options are, what you want to do is, like, shoot your way out. And so you speak first.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 60, "text": "How reassuring.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Butch Cassidy, laughter) Why, you crazy, the fall will probably kill you."}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 61, "text": "So that's my guest, Robert Redford, with Paul Newman from the 1969 film \"Butch Cassidy And The Sundance Kid.\" Were you surprised at how famous that scene became?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, right."}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 62, "text": "Oh, \"Raindrops Are Falling On My Head,\" the background song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I was. I mean, that - I was surprised at the whole thing. I remember when I saw the rough cut - I mean, I loved making the film. I had a lot of fun. I've never had so much fun on a film as I have"}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 63, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I said, wait a minute; what's that all about? I said, what in the hell? I said, raindrop - first of all, it's not raining. Secondly, what's that got to do with anything? I thought, well, that - "}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 64, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It made no sense to me. You know, how wrong can you be? I had to listen to that song on the radio for six months."}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 65, "text": "By the way, I had the same reaction about \"Raindrops Are Falling On My Head\" in the middle of the film. I thought...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But the film - also, Terry, another thing that's interesting about how - I guess the value of word of mouth. I remember when the film came out, George Roy Hill and William Goldman were very upset and "}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 66, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Did you really?"}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 67, "text": "I mean, it made absolutely no sense to me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Did you really?"}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 68, "text": "Well, unfortunately, our time is up. It's really been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much for coming back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's you and me, then. There's two of us."}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 69, "text": "It's been such a pleasure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 70, "text": "Oh, I wish", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And your voice is a lot more pleasant than mine."}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 71, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And your voice is a lot more pleasant than mine."}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 72, "text": "I wish. Oh, thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it is. You have a beautiful voice."}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 73, "text": "I'll play that back in my mind.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it is. You have a beautiful voice."}
{"id": "652508630", "date": "2018-09-28", "guest": "Robert Redford", "title": "Robert Redford: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 74, "text": "I actually occasionally do that. That was Robert Redford, recorded in 2013. His new film is called \"The Old Man And The Gun.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "653607732", "date": "2018-10-02", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "Michael Lewis: Trump's Approach To Government Shows 'Neglect And Misunderstanding'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The federal government under President Trump is the subject of the new book \"The Fifth Risk\" by my guest, journalist Michael Lewis, who's also the author of the best-sellers \"Moneyball\" and \"The Big Short,\" which were adapted into films, and \"The Undoing Project.\" Lewis looks at Trump's government by focusing on three departments - energy, commerce and agriculture. If you're thinking that this is about boring bureaucracy, consider that, as Lewis points out, the government manages a portfolio of risks that no private person or corporation was ever able to manage ranging from forecasting and warning about hurricanes - the National Weather Service is part of the Commerce Department - to preventing the accidental explosions of our own nuclear weapons, one of the Energy Department's many responsibilities. Many essential positions in the Trump administration remain unfilled, and some of the key positions, Lewis says, are filled by people who are uninformed about what areas they're supposed to be overseeing while others have conflicts of interest or political views that make them antagonistic toward the department or agency they're leading. Lewis started writing about this in articles published in Vanity Fair. Greg Miller, welcome to FRESH AIR. Is there a story that you helped break that you consider the most consequential story of candidate or President Trump and his administration?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "653607732", "date": "2018-10-02", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "Michael Lewis: Trump's Approach To Government Shows 'Neglect And Misunderstanding'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Oops. It looks like we're having a technical problem there, and we played the wrong tape. So we are now going to hear my interview with Michael Lewis. Sorry about that. Michael Lewis, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Explain what \"The Fifth Risk\" is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, there are several stories. Obviously many stories that The Washington Post broke that I had a hand in one way or another obviously working very closely with some terrific and amazing col"}
{"id": "653607732", "date": "2018-10-02", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "Michael Lewis: Trump's Approach To Government Shows 'Neglect And Misunderstanding'", "question_index": 2, "text": "Since your book is about the federal government under Trump, focusing on the energy, agriculture and commerce departments, why did you name it \"The Fifth Risk\" now that you've explained with \"The Fifth Risk\" means?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Short answer is it's the risk that you fail to imagine. It's while you're worried about what you're worried about, it's the thing that's actually going to come and kill you. And the longer answer is, "}
{"id": "653607732", "date": "2018-10-02", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "Michael Lewis: Trump's Approach To Government Shows 'Neglect And Misunderstanding'", "question_index": 3, "text": "So you write about three different departments - energy, agriculture and commerce. In all three or at least in two of the three, data has been removed, and the public can no longer access it. Can you give us some examples across the agencies of data that's been removed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was a response to what I'd found about how the Trump administration had gone about taking over the federal government. What kind of lights a fire under me is when I discovered that the Obama "}
{"id": "653607732", "date": "2018-10-02", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "Michael Lewis: Trump's Approach To Government Shows 'Neglect And Misunderstanding'", "question_index": 4, "text": "You don't write about the Environmental Protection Agency, but this seems to fit with one of the themes that you write about in your book. The office at the EPA that gives scientific input to the presidential administration, the Office of the Science Adviser - the plan is - according to an anonymous source that The New York Times reported on, the plan is to eliminate that job altogether. Does that fit into the themes that you've seen in the three departments that you write about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, so this is a theme. You know, trying to - wants to tease out some of the themes of the Trump administration. And one of the themes is it's going dark, or it's got a very loose or sometimes hosti"}
{"id": "653607732", "date": "2018-10-02", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "Michael Lewis: Trump's Approach To Government Shows 'Neglect And Misunderstanding'", "question_index": 5, "text": "You had spoken to FRESH AIR's Dave Davies about a year ago after your second article on how Trump is running the federal government was published in Vanity Fair. And with Dave, you focused on the departments of Energy and Agriculture. You've added in your book the Department of Commerce, so I want to take a look at that. And you write that the Department of Commerce has very little to do directly with commerce, and it's in fact forbidden by law from engaging in business. You say that the Department of Commerce should really be called the Department of Information or the Department of Data. Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, it's funny because the broad impulse of the Trump administration has been just not to fill the jobs. I mean, the top 700 jobs in the administration - half of them are still unfilled. A"}
{"id": "653607732", "date": "2018-10-02", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "Michael Lewis: Trump's Approach To Government Shows 'Neglect And Misunderstanding'", "question_index": 6, "text": "And one of the big, like, data pools that the Commerce Department is responsible for is the U.S. census. And the head of the Commerce Department, Wilbur Ross, is now involved in a lawsuit pertaining to a question on the census. I don't know if this is definitive or not, the question on the 2018 census, whether it's on there or not.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because that's what it does. It's - you know, inside of the Department of Commerce, you have the census, for example, which is the best picture we have of ourselves as a society. You have the - a coll"}
{"id": "653607732", "date": "2018-10-02", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "Michael Lewis: Trump's Approach To Government Shows 'Neglect And Misunderstanding'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Let's talk about why 'cause a lot of people will be afraid to answer that question.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there's still argument about whether they're going to insert on the census a question of establishing whether the person who's replying to the census is a citizen. What it will do is queer the r"}
{"id": "653607732", "date": "2018-10-02", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "Michael Lewis: Trump's Approach To Government Shows 'Neglect And Misunderstanding'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Right. And a lot of immigrants live with somebody who isn't here legally. So even if you're here legally, if you know someone who isn't, you might be afraid to say that you're an immigrant.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Will be - people will be afraid to answer the question, or people will be suspicious of the motives of the census takers."}
{"id": "653607732", "date": "2018-10-02", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "Michael Lewis: Trump's Approach To Government Shows 'Neglect And Misunderstanding'", "question_index": 9, "text": "And what are the consequences if Latinos are underrepresented in the census?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think at this point, there are even people who are here who are legal who are fearful. So actually, let's back up a second. They haven't even begun to prepare this for the census. I mean, the real p"}
{"id": "653607732", "date": "2018-10-02", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "Michael Lewis: Trump's Approach To Government Shows 'Neglect And Misunderstanding'", "question_index": 10, "text": "So the people suing Wilbur Ross, the plaintiffs, include over a dozen states and big cities who say that he acted improperly in trying to add this question about, are you a citizen - that he acted improperly in trying to add that to the census. And these states and cities fear their political representation will be calculated incorrectly because they will be misrepresented in the census if this question discourages immigrants from answering. So Wilbur Ross - did you - were you surprised at the choice of him to head the Department of Commerce since, as you say, Commerce has more to do about data? And I don't want to sound ageist here, but data and how it's collected and how it's interpreted has - is changing so rapidly. And I have no idea if he's kept up with what data means anymore.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For starters, you don't get a picture - a correct picture of the correct congressional districts. So where districts need to be redrawn because of shifting in the population, they won't be redrawn. Of"}
{"id": "653607732", "date": "2018-10-02", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "Michael Lewis: Trump's Approach To Government Shows 'Neglect And Misunderstanding'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Well, if you're just joining us, my guest is Michael Lewis, and his new book is called \"The Fifth Risk.\" And the book is about the federal government under President Trump. And the book looks at the energy, agriculture and commerce departments. We're going to take a short break, then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we know he was falling asleep in meetings where he was supposed to be learning about the department. And I know that the people who tried to explain to him how the department worked came away - "}
{"id": "653607732", "date": "2018-10-02", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "Michael Lewis: Trump's Approach To Government Shows 'Neglect And Misunderstanding'", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Michael Lewis. He's best known for his books like \"Moneyball,\" \"The Big Short\" and \"The Undoing Project,\" all of which have been best-sellers. His new book, \"The Fifth Risk,\" is about the federal government under Trump, and it examines the energy, agriculture, and commerce departments. You know, I'm wondering. There's so much attention being paid to what's happening in the White House and to the Mueller investigation and now to the Kavanaugh confirmation story. And not as much attention is being paid to what's happening on the Cabinet level, on the department level. And I'm wondering if there's a lot of action happening in the department level, like, the three departments you write about - you know, agriculture, commerce, energy - that most of us aren't paying that much attention to even though it's being reported on. But it's not - it never seems to be, like, the sexiest story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we know he was falling asleep in meetings where he was supposed to be learning about the department. And I know that the people who tried to explain to him how the department worked came away - "}
{"id": "653607732", "date": "2018-10-02", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "Michael Lewis: Trump's Approach To Government Shows 'Neglect And Misunderstanding'", "question_index": 13, "text": "And you see a lot of action happening at the department level with that kind of level of government where things are being undone, where positions aren't being replaced, where people are being appointed who aren't really appropriate for the position.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It never will be. And that's the problem. I mean, it's like we're a society of distracted drivers. We're not paying attention to the thing that matters most. There is this enterprise that is not a tru"}
{"id": "653607732", "date": "2018-10-02", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "Michael Lewis: Trump's Approach To Government Shows 'Neglect And Misunderstanding'", "question_index": 14, "text": "So let's get back to the Commerce Department, which you write about in \"The Fifth Risk.\" The Commerce Department includes the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, N-O-A-A, NOAA. And you say 60 percent of the Commerce Department is really NOAA. First of all, what's it doing in the Commerce Department", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And people - and they're people who have the ability to dismantle critical functions of the government, who also have a financial incentive to do so because they have some conflict."}
{"id": "653607732", "date": "2018-10-02", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "Michael Lewis: Trump's Approach To Government Shows 'Neglect And Misunderstanding'", "question_index": 15, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And people - and they're people who have the ability to dismantle critical functions of the government, who also have a financial incentive to do so because they have some conflict."}
{"id": "653607732", "date": "2018-10-02", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "Michael Lewis: Trump's Approach To Government Shows 'Neglect And Misunderstanding'", "question_index": 16, "text": "And this includes the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a really good question. So it's even more than 60 percent. It's 65 percent or so of the budget. It goes to this one thing. NOAA eats the Commerce Department."}
{"id": "653607732", "date": "2018-10-02", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "Michael Lewis: Trump's Approach To Government Shows 'Neglect And Misunderstanding'", "question_index": 17, "text": "...National Weather Service, by the way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep."}
{"id": "653607732", "date": "2018-10-02", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "Michael Lewis: Trump's Approach To Government Shows 'Neglect And Misunderstanding'", "question_index": 18, "text": "You're talking about Barry Myers, who is the CEO of AccuWeather. That sounds actually like a good fit. He runs a weather prediction service.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The National Weather Service is a - National Weather Service is the biggest part of NOAA. And how did it get there? Back in the '70s, Nixon was contemplating a reorganization of government. And he was"}
{"id": "653607732", "date": "2018-10-02", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "Michael Lewis: Trump's Approach To Government Shows 'Neglect And Misunderstanding'", "question_index": 19, "text": "My guest is Michael Lewis. His new book is called \"The Fifth Risk.\" We'll talk more after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so here's the problem. Typically the person who runs NOAA has a science background. And Barry Myers is a lawyer. But let's leave that to one side. NOAA is a giant science operation. The problem "}
{"id": "653607732", "date": "2018-10-02", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "Michael Lewis: Trump's Approach To Government Shows 'Neglect And Misunderstanding'", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with journalist Michael Lewis, author of the best-sellers \"Moneyball\" and \"The Big Short,\" which were adapted into films, and \"The Undoing Project.\" His new book, \"The Fifth Risk,\" looks at the federal government under President Trump. It seems to me you're - in your book, you're basically saying you could predict some of the problems that the federal government was going to have under President Trump by looking at the transition and looking at the Trump candidacy. So let's go to there. The first chapter is about the transition before Trump was even elected because the transition process is supposed to start with each candidate. Each candidate is supposed to be preparing at some point as if they were going to become president so that they're briefed and they're up to speed if they do become president. So the first sentence in your book is, Christie noticed a piece in The New York Times. That's how it all started. What was the article Christie noticed, and what did this article start?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so here's the problem. Typically the person who runs NOAA has a science background. And Barry Myers is a lawyer. But let's leave that to one side. NOAA is a giant science operation. The problem "}
{"id": "653607732", "date": "2018-10-02", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "Michael Lewis: Trump's Approach To Government Shows 'Neglect And Misunderstanding'", "question_index": 21, "text": "It surprised me that after learning that the Trump administration had nobody who could fill this role and didn't seem to care very much about filling this role that Christie was still so in support of Trump and wanted to run their transition.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So there was a piece in The Times that described a meeting that had occurred between the Obama administration and all of the remaining presidential campaigns. So it was Hillary Clinton's campaign, Tru"}
{"id": "653607732", "date": "2018-10-02", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "Michael Lewis: Trump's Approach To Government Shows 'Neglect And Misunderstanding'", "question_index": 22, "text": "He said, because we're both so smart.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think there are a couple of things going on at once. One is, as Christie makes quite clear, but as other people have pointed out, Trump didn't run to win. He didn't have an acceptance speech on the "}
{"id": "653607732", "date": "2018-10-02", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "Michael Lewis: Trump's Approach To Government Shows 'Neglect And Misunderstanding'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Why did he fire them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, that - he's - that's right. So this is another theme that underlines all of this in the Trump operation - the presence of rich people - Trump and especially - and Jared Kushner. There is t"}
{"id": "653607732", "date": "2018-10-02", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "Michael Lewis: Trump's Approach To Government Shows 'Neglect And Misunderstanding'", "question_index": 24, "text": "So was there, like, a last straw for Chris Christie that got him fired?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Great question. The simple, short answer is that Jared Kushner told him to and that Jared Kushner did not like the idea of Chris Christie running the operation because Chris Christie as a prosecutor i"}
{"id": "653607732", "date": "2018-10-02", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "Michael Lewis: Trump's Approach To Government Shows 'Neglect And Misunderstanding'", "question_index": 25, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Michael Lewis, and his new book is called \"The Fifth Risk.\" And the book is about the federal government under President Trump, and the book looks at the Energy, Agriculture and Commerce departments. We're going to take a short break. Then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think what happened was this - that they allowed Chris Christie to build this transition team because Christie explained it was the law; they had to do it; they didn't have any choice. Trump paid it"}
{"id": "653607732", "date": "2018-10-02", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "Michael Lewis: Trump's Approach To Government Shows 'Neglect And Misunderstanding'", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is Michael Lewis. He's best known for his books like \"Moneyball,\" \"The Big Short\" and \"The Undoing Project,\" all of which have been best-sellers. His new book, \"The Fifth Risk,\" is about the federal government under Trump, and it examines the Energy, Agriculture and Commerce departments. After President Trump was inaugurated, he sent in what you described as a small landing team led by Thomas Pyle, the president of the American Energy Alliance, which you describe as, you know, a group funded with millions of dollars from ExxonMobil and Koch Industries that basically represents their point of view. So what was the landing team, and what was Pyle tasked with doing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think what happened was this - that they allowed Chris Christie to build this transition team because Christie explained it was the law; they had to do it; they didn't have any choice. Trump paid it"}
{"id": "653607732", "date": "2018-10-02", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "Michael Lewis: Trump's Approach To Government Shows 'Neglect And Misunderstanding'", "question_index": 27, "text": "One of the things he did as part of the, quote, \"landing team\" was send a list of 74 questions he wanted answers to - 74 questions to the Department of Energy. What were some of the questions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So landing team is a grand phrase for what arrived at the Department of Energy because it was really just Pyle, and he didn't show up until a month after the election. And he would have been, in theor"}
{"id": "653607732", "date": "2018-10-02", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "Michael Lewis: Trump's Approach To Government Shows 'Neglect And Misunderstanding'", "question_index": 28, "text": "So, you know, your previous book about the science of risk and about trying to kind of quantify, in a way, how the human mind works when it's assessing risk - that book was called \"The Undoing Project.\" Do you feel, in a way, that your new book could have been called \"The Undoing Project\" because, in some ways, departments, you know, in the Trump administration are getting undone because there aren't a lot of people to replace the people from the Obama administration yet? And some of the people who have been put in positions to run those departments are antagonistic toward those departments.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He wanted lists of names of anybody in the department who had attended meetings that were associated with climate change. He was trying to identify people who might be hostile to the fossil fuels indu"}
{"id": "653607732", "date": "2018-10-02", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "Michael Lewis: Trump's Approach To Government Shows 'Neglect And Misunderstanding'", "question_index": 29, "text": "So you used to work on Wall Street way back in the day. And you wrote about that experience in your first book, \"Liar's Poker.\" Last month marked the 10th anniversary of the financial collapse of 2008. The market has more than recovered over that time. But some people are starting to say, hm, this might be another bubble. How are you interpreting - having written a book recently about risk and having, you know, been - having written about the financial crisis, what you've done, I'm just wondering what your thoughts are about whether - where we are now in terms of financial stability and world markets.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So yes, but there's actually a direct connection between \"The Undoing Project,\" my last book, and this one. And it's what got me into this book in the first place. One of the insights that drops out o"}
{"id": "653607732", "date": "2018-10-02", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "Michael Lewis: Trump's Approach To Government Shows 'Neglect And Misunderstanding'", "question_index": 30, "text": "That's a big question", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "653607732", "date": "2018-10-02", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "Michael Lewis: Trump's Approach To Government Shows 'Neglect And Misunderstanding'", "question_index": 31, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "653607732", "date": "2018-10-02", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "Michael Lewis: Trump's Approach To Government Shows 'Neglect And Misunderstanding'", "question_index": 32, "text": "Well, I know that's not really your job, but...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it is a big question. I mean, if you're asking me to predict the bad things going to happen next..."}
{"id": "653607732", "date": "2018-10-02", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "Michael Lewis: Trump's Approach To Government Shows 'Neglect And Misunderstanding'", "question_index": 33, "text": "Why would it figure - trigger a financial crisis?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it's not my job. But, you know, if I - I would love to have one outlandish prediction on the record, not that I think it's going to happen. But it's the sort of thing that if it does happen, I thi"}
{"id": "653607732", "date": "2018-10-02", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "Michael Lewis: Trump's Approach To Government Shows 'Neglect And Misunderstanding'", "question_index": 34, "text": "My guest is Michael Lewis, and his new book is called \"The Fifth Risk.\" And the book is about the federal government under President Trump. And the book looks at the Energy, Agriculture and Commerce departments. We're going to take a short break. Then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, because the dollar is the world's reserve currency. Lots and lots of people hold it, assuming it's going to be more or less stable. There'd be a flight out of the dollar. U.S. Treasury bonds are"}
{"id": "653607732", "date": "2018-10-02", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "Michael Lewis: Trump's Approach To Government Shows 'Neglect And Misunderstanding'", "question_index": 35, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Michael Lewis. His new book \"The Fifth Risk\" is about the federal government under Trump. A lot of the government is often dismissed as being bureaucracy that slows down anything - it slows down and often prevents anything from getting done and that it's just, like, layers and layers of bureaucrats, of, like, managers and - so...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, because the dollar is the world's reserve currency. Lots and lots of people hold it, assuming it's going to be more or less stable. There'd be a flight out of the dollar. U.S. Treasury bonds are"}
{"id": "653607732", "date": "2018-10-02", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "Michael Lewis: Trump's Approach To Government Shows 'Neglect And Misunderstanding'", "question_index": 36, "text": "So has your understanding of, like, our bureaucracy changed through writing these stories?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, just lazy, stupid people. Right."}
{"id": "653607732", "date": "2018-10-02", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "Michael Lewis: Trump's Approach To Government Shows 'Neglect And Misunderstanding'", "question_index": 37, "text": "Well, Michael Lewis, great to talk with you again. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God. So I didn't know what I was going to find when I started knocking on the door of the Energy Department or the Agriculture Department or the Commerce Department. And I turned out having exa"}
{"id": "653607732", "date": "2018-10-02", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "Michael Lewis: Trump's Approach To Government Shows 'Neglect And Misunderstanding'", "question_index": 38, "text": "Michael Lewis' new book is called \"The Fifth Risk.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, my guest will be Tamara Jenkins, who wrote and directed the \"Slums Of Beverly Hills\" and the \"Savages.\" Her new movie, \"Private Life,\" stars Kathryn Hahn and Paul Giamatti as a couple in their 40s trying to have a baby through any means necessary - IVF, adoption, egg donor. I hope you'll join us. We'll close today's show with a song from one of my favorite moments of my career. But it's with great sadness that I'm going to play this for you. The person who made this moment possible died last week, Sydney Goldstein. Sydney was famous in San Francisco's arts and literary world for, in 1980, founding City Arts & Lectures, a series of onstage readings, lectures and interviews that she ran until retiring last year. Her series became a model for cities around the country. One of the things she loved to do was to book a guest and then find an interviewer she felt would be a good match. She loved Rosemary Clooney and knew I did, too. So when she managed to book Clooney for a concert and interview in 1997, Sydney invited me to be the interviewer. What a privilege to share a stage with Clooney, and what a wonderful, generous performance she gave. Another time Sydney and I worked together was when the annual Public Radio Conference was held in San Francisco. And City Arts and FRESH AIR co-produced an event for our fellow radio folks. It was an onstage interview with the great magician and magic historian Ricky Jay. Sydney was part of the radio community. She produced a radio version of City Arts & Lectures that was broadcast on KQED in San Francisco as well as over a hundred other public radio stations around the country. Although we lived on opposite coasts, Sydney and I became friends. Sydney changed my life in several ways, and so did a couple of people she introduced me to. But I want to thank her not just for being a friend and colleague but for all she contributed to the world of arts and culture, the boost she gave writers and the thousands of interesting evenings she gave audiences. Count me as one of the very many people who mourn her loss. I send my deepest sympathies to her family. Here's one of the songs Rosemary Clooney performed onstage that night at City Arts & Lectures. Thank you for everything, Sydney.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "653607732", "date": "2018-10-02", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "Michael Lewis: Trump's Approach To Government Shows 'Neglect And Misunderstanding'", "question_index": 39, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Mooj Zadie, Thea Chaloner and Seth Kelley. Therese Madden directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was wonderful. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you."}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 0, "text": "Wendy Whelan, welcome to FRESH AIR. I know leaving the New York City Ballet was very difficult for you. It had been your life, your identity. Did it make it any easier to have a camera crew documenting that period of your life and being public about it, making it something interesting and worthy of sharing, something other people - dancers and other people would identify with?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, editor of the website TV Worth Watching, sitting in for Terry Gross. Most dancers and athletes face a similar predicament. Their careers are virtually over in t"}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 1, "text": "Was it a - kind of a preventive against wallowing", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a great question. It was a very difficult time. I did not want to make the film originally when it came my way. I didn't want to share this very unknown part of my life - unknown to me, complic"}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 2, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a great question. It was a very difficult time. I did not want to make the film originally when it came my way. I didn't want to share this very unknown part of my life - unknown to me, complic"}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 3, "text": "My impression is you felt you might have been violating an unspoken ballet rule, which is that ballet dancers don't reveal their difficulties.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it kind of turned into that, yeah. It was a support. It turned into that in a weird way."}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 4, "text": "Where does it come from? Like, what is that about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly, exactly."}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 5, "text": "What were your biggest worries about what your life would be like if you couldn't dance again?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. It's this ideal of perfection, of otherworldliness, of power and strength and confidence. That's what we try to emit on the stage in performance. In the studio, we have to, you know, be "}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 6, "text": "And it was your entire life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I didn't want to lose the voice I had physically, the mode of expression that I had and the - especially letting go the level of the expression that I had and changing the level. I knew it so we"}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 7, "text": "I mean, that was - dancing was and still is your life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was."}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 8, "text": "That's nice to hear. So once you realized after your hip surgery and after the rehabilitation and physical therapy - once you realized you could dance again but it was time to leave the extreme dance of the New York City Ballet, did it change your identity to leave the New York City Ballet? You'd been with that ballet for 30 years. That - I mean that was your - you were a principal. That was really, like, your identity. And it's one of the most famous ballet companies in the world.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I started when I was 3, and I retired ballet at 47. But I'm 50 now. And I just took class, and I did yoga this morning. And I moved my body, and I felt good. So I was happy about that."}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 9, "text": "Yeah, I mean, like, who are you if you're not the principal of the New York City Ballet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I moved to New York from Louisville, Ky., when I was 15. My ultimate focus was the New York City Ballet - getting in, hopefully - and thriving in that company. And I did. I was there as an appre"}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 10, "text": "Was letting go hard? I mean, was that something you didn't really know how to do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have to do that myself. So that was huge, you know, to sort of let myself know - oh, well, if you want to sleep in, you can sleep in. You know, that was like, what? You know, just letting go and rel"}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 11, "text": "When you were describing how you dress, are you talking about onstage or off?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've been strapped in, you know - physically strapped into pointe shoes, strapped into a leotard and tights. My hair's been strapped up for my whole entire life. And to untie the shoes - I don't wear "}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 12, "text": "It's hard, sometimes, to do it in our culture because I think people are ashamed of getting older.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know, including the nervous system. So everything's on a high ladder of, like, you know, I've got to succeed. I can't falter. I have to, you know, make that step happen. I have to feel in the zo"}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 13, "text": "People don't hide their age the way they used to because it's pointless. All anybody needs to do is go on Google, so...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They're ashamed. Definitely."}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 14, "text": "...Why bother to hide it? But still, I think people are very often very self-conscious about their age, especially in professions where you're judged by your age. And that covers a lot of professions. But when you're judged visually by your age, I mean, I'm sure that's one of the reasons why so many people get cosmetic surgery, you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 15, "text": "Yeah. But at the ballet, it must have been, like, wow, I don't know. She's, like - she's 45 now. When she's - when is she going to retire? How much more does she have left? Did you feel that from people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I've always been - I mean, I've always been proud of - I've always been, well, I'm this old. I've never lied about my age, you know? So..."}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 16, "text": "What was your mix between anger and gratitude", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 17, "text": "when he told you maybe it's no longer time for you to be doing this role? And I think the role he was talking about was in \"The Nutcracker,\" which you'd done every year.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 18, "text": "And this was a meeting with the ballet master, Peter Martins.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I was surprised. I went into the meeting thinking it was about something else. I had no idea that this was going to come up."}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 19, "text": "How long after that meeting did you get injured?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And because I hadn't had any real pain in my body - I mean, I knew I wasn't 28 anymore. But at the same time, I wasn't feeling pain and/or boredom. I still felt inspired. And so when it happened"}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 20, "text": "Wow. That's a long time to be in pain.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That happened in, I think, October of 2011. And by January 2012, I had pain. So two months. And the pain never stopped, in different areas of my body, for four years."}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 21, "text": "Let's take a short break here. And then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Wendy Whelan, who was a principal dancer with the New York City Ballet for 30 years. She retired from the company in 2014 after making a comeback following a hip injury. The new documentary \"Restless Creature\" is about that period of her life. We'll be back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. If you're just joining us, my guest is Wendy Whelan, who was a principal ballerina with the New York City Ballet for 30 years. In 2013, a hip injury led to reconstructive surgery and months of rehabilitation and physical therapy. She returned to the New York City Ballet for the spring 2014 season and retired from the company that October after a triumphant performance. She now does contemporary dance. The new film \"Restless Creature\" documents the period of her life from her surgery to her comeback, a period during which she worried about whether she would dance again and how leaving the New York City Ballet would alter her identity. How did you get the hip injury that led to your pain and to your surgery?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We'll get back to our interview in a minute."}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 23, "text": "How did it change your relationship to your body to be in pain and to not know if your body was going to work properly again? Your body is your source - the source of your pride, the source of your work, the source of your identity as a dancer. And it's also just, like, your home. I mean, we all live in our bodies. But your body was, like, a very special body.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "you know? And I'm sure the tear was there forever. I just didn't know it, and - until it was discovered and - or it had gotten to a place that it was needing to be fixed. So I contemplated surgery, co"}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 24, "text": "You know, a lot of people think of ballet as being the ultimate in, like, femininity - you know", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, and we could talk. We could fight. And we always found way to make peace throughout my career. You know, it started to tell me what to do, and I stopped demanding from it. So I had to soften"}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 25, "text": ", like a pink kind of femininity, like, frilly...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, and we could talk. We could fight. And we always found way to make peace throughout my career. You know, it started to tell me what to do, and I stopped demanding from it. So I had to soften"}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 26, "text": "...The tutu. Your approach at New York City Ballet was - it was almost like more of an extreme sport. I mean, you got your body into shapes and angles and doing jumps and getting lifted in ways that truly seemed to defy the laws of gravity and defy the laws of what the body is physically capable of. Would you describe a little for people who have not seen you dance some of the things that you did that were so typical for you but not typical for others?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 27, "text": "One of the - and I actually I forget which dance this is, so forgive me. But you do a thing with your partner. So like, your partner's kind of lifting you as you do a kind of cartwheel - a slow cartwheel in the air, making a full circle with your legs almost in a complete split as you're doing it.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's 2017 interview with Wendy Whelan, who retired as a principal ballerina with the New York City Ballet in 2014 at th"}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 28, "text": "And that looks like an incredibly physically challenging thing to do, yet you make it seem so effortless. And it looks like you're just kind of floating, but you're not. I mean, gravity still exists when you're on stage. It doesn't stop for you", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 29, "text": ". So can you talk about what you're physically doing in that particular move?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 30, "text": "And how does it physically feel? Does it feel like, wow, this is hard, I'm really exerting myself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 31, "text": "Or does it feel...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 32, "text": "...As fluid as it looks?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 33, "text": "What's the importance of ballet shoes when you're a ballerina - like, having, like, the exact right shoe?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It feels heavenly. It feels like magic. It feels like it - like there's no other place I'd rather be than making that movement right there then, yeah."}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 34, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You mean, like, the pointe shoe..."}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 35, "text": "The one where you go up on your toes, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...The one where you go up on your toe?"}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 36, "text": "So you started dancing at the age of 3.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It needs to fit like a glove. So it really needs to - you - we practice pointing our feet, working, exercising our feet so that we can articulate the joints in the feet and the - and create shapes, sc"}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 37, "text": "And by 12, you were diagnosed with scoliosis. How severe was it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 38, "text": "So when you had to wear a body cast, how did you keep up with dancing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Severe enough that the doctors wanted to treat me for it with traction, body casting and ultimately a Milwaukee brace. So they wanted to halt the curve because if they didn't halt the curve when they "}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 39, "text": "The documentary about you, the new documentary \"Restless Creature,\" ends with an excerpt of your final New York City Ballet performance. And then when you take your bow, like, everybody's coming up with a bouquet of roses. You have so many bouquets of roses. At some point...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was in a 15-pound body cast. So imagine one of those down vests that you can get at North Face or one of the - basically that made out of plaster was what I lived in for - it ended up being a "}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 40, "text": "...You put them down, and they just look like too - they're bigger than you are", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 41, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 42, "text": "They look like too heavy to even carry at some point.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 43, "text": "What was it like waking up the next day? Do you remember that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 44, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It was funny. Yeah, my niece was there. She was, I think, 3 or 4 at the time, and we were pretending with a cat toy that we were fishing. You know, I was like, oh, yeah, I'm in retirement now."}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 45, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm fishing, you know? (Laugher) I was like, yeah. And even on stage, I just felt like, you know - I think I bowed for nearly a half an hour. I don't remember quite how long, but people were like, you"}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 46, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Of your show. And I just - I felt slowly like I was taking a skin off, like this kind of snakeskin. Like, I am now me. And you're seeing me, the goofy Wendy, just - I'm not trying to be who you all"}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 47, "text": "There's a moment in the film where you talk about how you can't watch the New York City Ballet because it's just too painful since you can't dance. At that point, you're still recovering.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I was like, yeah, I'm just a human being, you know. And I've been this the whole time, but I haven't been able to show it."}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 48, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 49, "text": "Yeah - sorry. But do you still have to deal at all with, you know, envy or - no?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that was - yeah..."}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 50, "text": "Like, when you see, like, young dancers or when you look...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 51, "text": "...At the dancers in the New York City Ballet, do you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 52, "text": "...Wish, like, you could be back there, that you could be that again?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 53, "text": "Well, I can't tell you how much I...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I did it. I did it, and I'm so proud of how I did it. And I'm proud of how I let it go. And I'm excited for these people that are in it now, loving it, living it, being it, finding themselves. I'm"}
{"id": "654765129", "date": "2018-10-05", "guest": "Wendy Whelan", "title": "From Injury To Recovery, A Ballet Dancer Fought To Retire On Her Own Terms", "question_index": 54, "text": "...Admire you. Thank you so much for talking with us. It's really been great to talk with you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I did it. I did it, and I'm so proud of how I did it. And I'm proud of how I let it go. And I'm excited for these people that are in it now, loving it, living it, being it, finding themselves. I'm"}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. When Leonard Cohen died two years ago at the age of 82, he left behind many unpublished poems and lyrics. Some of his final poems, lyrics, notebook entries and drawings are collected in the new book \"The Flame.\" His son, my guest Adam Cohen, wrote the forward. Adam also produced the album his father recorded shortly before his death called \"You Want It Darker.\" Adam is a singer and songwriter whose album \"Like A Man\" went gold in Canada in 2012. He was born in Montreal in 1972. Adam is going to talk with us about Leonard Cohen as a writer, performer and father and tell us about working closely with his father in the final year of his life. Leonard Cohen's lyrics have a depth few songwriters have achieved, reflecting reverence and despair, his attraction to beauty and his knowledge of brokenness, lyrics informed by his Judaism, his practice of Zen Buddhism and his doubt. Some of his many well-known songs include \"Suzanne,\" \"So Long, Marianne,\" \"Famous Blue Raincoat,\" \"Chelsea Hotel No. 2,\" \"Everybody Knows,\" \"Tower Of Song,\" \"I'm Your Man,\" and of course his best-known, most frequently recorded and performed song \"Hallelujah.\" Adam Cohen, welcome to FRESH AIR. I just want to start by saying I love your father's music. I loved his writing. And I feel privileged to have had the chance to hear him in concert and to talk with him on our show. And I'm grateful for the chance to talk with you today. So thank you for being here. When I interviewed your father in 2006, after the publication of a book of his poems and songs, he asked to read a poem that he'd just written that hadn't yet been published. But it's now published in this new book, \"The Flame.\" So I thought it would be a perfect way to start with your father's reading of that poem, \"A Street,\" from our 2006 interview.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 1, "text": "That's Leonard Cohen recorded on our show in 2006. His son, Adam Cohen, is my guest. And the new posthumous collection of Leonard Cohen's final poems, lyrics, notebooks and drawings is called \"The Flame.\" It's just been published, and it includes the poem that we just heard. Adam, what does it mean to you to have so much of your father's latest, you know, his - the work he did before he died collected in this new book?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) I used to be your favorite drunk, good for one more laugh. Then we both ran out of luck, and luck was all we had. You put on a uniform to fight the Civil War. I tried to join, but no one lik"}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 2, "text": "Do you feel protective of his privacy? 'Cause in my opinion, like, your father was very elliptical in his writing and pretty private about his life. He alluded to a lot of things in his songs but never quite came out and said them in a direct way. A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, first of all, I'm just so struck by hearing my father's voice, which I seem to be listening to almost more than I ever did, even when he was alive. I love his poetry. I love his words. I lov"}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 3, "text": "OK. A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I - I'm not certain that's true in terms of the use of the word direct..."}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Yeah. There's a crack in everything, and that's where the light gets in. I don't have the line exactly at my fingertips, but, I mean... A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I will say that to speak on his behalf feels like a little bit of a transgression, you know? You have a man who has designed his life around trying to not demystify a process, and his work really "}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Yeah. So like, whatever light can get through the crack", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's - yeah, ring the bells that still can ring. Forget your perfect offering. There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 6, "text": ", it does, you know? I mean, he sees the light, but he sees the thing that only has a crack that lets the light in, you know? He always heard the duality of everything, is I think what I'm trying to say. So... A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's - yeah, ring the bells that still can ring. Forget your perfect offering. There is a crack in everything. That's how the light gets in."}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yeah? A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know..."}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 8, "text": "You wrote a very eloquent introduction, which I will be quoting as time goes on here", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "to the very core. And when I say that, I don't mean to be disparaging of the person constructing the questions. I think it's natural for us to be curious and to articulate our concerns or our thoughts"}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 9, "text": ". A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "to the very core. And when I say that, I don't mean to be disparaging of the person constructing the questions. I think it's natural for us to be curious and to articulate our concerns or our thoughts"}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 10, "text": "So I think you've said he left behind, like, lockers' worth of notebooks. What are you doing with them? I mean, you're describing - like, he was always writing. There was always, like, cocktail napkins and pages and - in his pockets. You found a notebook in the freezer once. So what are you doing with the findings? A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 11, "text": "I want to play the title song on the final album that was released when your father, Leonard Cohen, was still alive. It's called \"You Want It Darker.\" And then we'll talk about working with him on it. And this is - it's - what can I say? It's a great song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's amazing. There's so much paperwork to go through. From the simplest point of view, there's the archival work, which is assembling everything and trying to pay homage to it for posterity. Th"}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 12, "text": "L.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's amazing. There's so much paperwork to go through. From the simplest point of view, there's the archival work, which is assembling everything and trying to pay homage to it for posterity. Th"}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 13, "text": "That's Leonard Cohen from the final album that was released while he was alive, the title track, \"You Want It Darker.\" My guest is his son, Adam Cohen, who wrote the introduction to a new collection of Leonard Cohen's final poems, notebook entries, lyrics and drawings called \"The Flame.\" That song is so much about facing death and of having a God who allows suffering and accepting the suffering but yet not being, like, happy about it or trying to make it seem like suffering's great", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If you are the dealer, I'm out of the game. If you are the healer, it means I'm broken and lame. If thine is the glory, then mine must be the shame. You want it darker, we kill the flame. Magnified, s"}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 14, "text": ". You know, he's not trying to be spiritual in a dismissive way of all the suffering that we endure. I want to read what he wrote about you for the liner notes of this album. He wrote that without your contribution there would be no record. He said, (reading) At a certain point, after over a year of intense labor, both Pat - who wrote the melodies - and I coincidentally broke down with severe back injuries and other disagreeable visitations. In my case, the situation was bleak, the discomfort acute, and the project was abandoned. (Reading) Adam sensed that my recovery, if not my survival, depended on my getting back to work. He took over the project, established me in a medical chair to sing and brought these unfinished songs to completion, preserving of course many of Pat's haunting musical themes. It is because of my son's loving encouragement and skilled administration that these songs exist in their present form. I cannot thank him enough. What were you able to do for him physically to make it possible for him to record the album? He mentions you put him in a medical chair. Can you describe the setup that you helped create for him? A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If you are the dealer, I'm out of the game. If you are the healer, it means I'm broken and lame. If thine is the glory, then mine must be the shame. You want it darker, we kill the flame. Magnified, s"}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Adam Cohen, and he's the son of Leonard Cohen. And now there's a new collection of Leonard Cohen's final lyrics, poems, notebook entries and drawings. And these are all collected in the new book \"The Flame.\" And Adam Cohen wrote the introduction to it. We're going to take a short break, and then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think maybe the more interesting thing, certainly to me, would be to just say that we were riding some kind of mysterious wind and the grace of the occasion. There was an urgency to the entire missi"}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Adam Cohen. He's the son of the late Leonard Cohen. And there's a new collection of Leonard Cohen's final poems, lyrics and drawings and notebook entries, previously unpublished, and it's called \"The Flame.\" And Adam wrote the introduction to it. I'm going to ask you to read a poem that's published in the new collection, in the posthumous collection of Leonard Cohen's works. So is there something that you could choose that would be relevant to what we're talking about now? A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think maybe the more interesting thing, certainly to me, would be to just say that we were riding some kind of mysterious wind and the grace of the occasion. There was an urgency to the entire missi"}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 17, "text": "I'm wondering if you think that's because, like, when your father sang his songs or read his poems, there was this really dark quality, but there was this, like, kind of existential distance from it at the same time and a transcendent as well that made for a really complicated mix of emotion. Is that what is troubling you about the idea of you reading the poems yourself, that he brought this kind of just - you know, even through his voice this complicated quality of whatever pain or anguish and spirituality he was expressing at the same time, and that you don't feel like you could? A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know what? I don't want to read these poems. I think that in some way or another, if we could urge people to consult the work with smaller samples - otherwise, it takes a kind of lugubrious tone t"}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 18, "text": "I appreciate you saying that as his son. But as a fan of your father's work, I will say that he performed his work in concerts to large crowds of people. And there are so many performers who have performed his songs. So they have - his work has a life outside of his mouth. A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's simpler than that. You know, I'm reminded of so, so many lines in which he talked about the solitude of the experience of reading. And there's so many poems in which he alludes to the ide"}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 19, "text": "And his work has a life outside of the solitary experience of a reader sitting alone in his room, quietly reading his poems. So I just... A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank goodness."}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 20, "text": "...Want to get on the record", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, and his..."}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 21, "text": "as saying that. A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, and his..."}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Since you've declined to read more poems by your father, I'm going to play him reading... A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, and I'll go one step further with what you're saying just because I don't believe that they're contradictory in a sense. I mean, this is a man who's put the word hallelujah on many millions of peo"}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 23, "text": "No, it's just - I'd be lying if I didn't say I was a little disappointing. But I can live with that. So I thought I'd play your father reading another poem of his from the interview that we recorded in 2006. And this is a poem called \"Titles.\" And it was published in a book that he did in 2006 of poems and lyrics. So this is Leonard Cohen recorded in 2006 on FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I hope I'm not being cantankerous or intransigent."}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 24, "text": "L.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I hope I'm not being cantankerous or intransigent."}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 25, "text": "I think that poem, Adam, gets to a little about what you were talking about - the connection of your father writing in solitude and the reader reading alone... A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) I had the title poet. And maybe I was one for a while. Also, the title singer was kindly accorded me, even though I could barely carry a tune. For many years, I was known as a monk. I shaved"}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 26, "text": "...And entering his solitude, yeah. Solitude. A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And as you noted..."}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 27, "text": "Absolutely. A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As you noted, also a kind of humor, you know, embedded."}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 28, "text": "My guest is Adam Cohen. He's written the foreword to a new collection of previously unpublished writings and drawings by his father, Leonard Cohen. After a break, Adam will talk about how after his parents divorced when he was a child, his father managed to stay in his life, even though Adam and his mother had moved to the south of France. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I remember - I loved one of his lines where he says, it feels so good not to love you like I did. It's like they tore away my blindfold and said, we're going to let this prisoner live. I always though"}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 29, "text": "L.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I remember - I loved one of his lines where he says, it feels so good not to love you like I did. It's like they tore away my blindfold and said, we're going to let this prisoner live. I always though"}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 30, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross back with Adam Cohen, a songwriter and singer who's the son of Leonard Cohen. Adam has written the foreword to a new collection of his late father's previously unpublished lyrics, poems, notebook entries and drawings. It's called \"The Flame.\" Adam also produced the final album his father released before his death, called \"You Want It Darker.\" Leonard Cohen was very weak and in pain when he recorded it. Is there a song you remember from your childhood that sticks in your mind, a song that meant a lot to you, maybe even a song you remember your father writing? A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) If it be your will that I speak no more and my voice be still as it was before..."}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 31, "text": "You remember him writing it? A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, when I was really young, I remember him composing \"Hallelujah.\""}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 32, "text": "Yeah. So for \"Hallelujah,\" as you say, there were 84 verses. I don't think he ever recorded all 84. A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So, you know, it started when I was very, very young. I'd hear verses. I think there were 84 verses to that song. I remember coming down to the kitchen table. And he was there with a nylon-string gu"}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 33, "text": "But did it take 12 years and 84 verses before he considered it completed because of dissatisfaction with the verses that he'd previously written or because there was still so much he wanted to say in the format of that song? A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 34, "text": "Do you think he was frustrated working on it for so long or that it was satisfying? A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As the - a popular poem states, a poem is never finished but rather abandoned."}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 35, "text": "You know, you quote that, you know, some people subscribe to the philosophy first thought, best thought. And that's often attributed to one of the beat writers, but that your father believed last thought, best thought.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think frustration was expected. The success of being able to let it go was the unexpected. You know, I think he - as I say, he was very vocational. From the earliest stage, he would wake up earlier "}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 36, "text": "A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think frustration was expected. The success of being able to let it go was the unexpected. You know, I think he - as I say, he was very vocational. From the earliest stage, he would wake up earlier "}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 37, "text": "So he edited - I take it he edited his songs a lot. He went through a lot of drafts. A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he believed..."}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 38, "text": "So why don't we hear \"Hallelujah,\" your father's version? A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a constant process of filtration and refinement for certain."}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 39, "text": "OK, so this is Leonard Cohen - yeah, go ahead. A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 40, "text": "Oh, is that right? Is that... A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "..."}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 41, "text": "Yeah. A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I get - yeah, it feels like a transgression. Yeah."}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 42, "text": "Because... A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Please refrain from playing \"Hallelujah.\""}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 43, "text": "So in spite of the moratorium your family has on \"Hallelujah,\" I think we'll play it anyways. Are you OK with that? A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It was partly a joke and partly his own exhaustion, I think, with the song."}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 44, "text": "OK. So here it is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, God. Yeah, I'm going to report you to the bully police."}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 45, "text": "L.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, God. Yeah, I'm going to report you to the bully police."}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 46, "text": "That's Leonard Cohen singing \"Hallelujah,\" and my guest is Leonard Cohen's son, Adam Cohen. And there's a - he wrote the introduction to a new collection of posthumously-published Leonard Cohen lyrics, poems, notebook entries and drawings. And it's called \"The Flame.\" So, you know, \"Hallelujah\" - I think like 200 people have recorded \"Hallelujah.\" And - but it didn't become well-known until Jeff Buckley recorded it, like, maybe 10 years or more after your father recorded it, which is just so strange. But it's a sign of how, I think, there was a period of years when your father's genius wasn't fully acknowledged. When - you know, he had the initial period of hits. And then I think people just - a lot of people just kind of drifted away and then rediscovered him. And what was it like for you and for him during that period when, I think, he'd been a little bit forgotten? A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Your faith was strong, but you needed proof."}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 47, "text": "When I saw him probably in the late 2000s - like 2009 maybe; I can't remember what year it was - was kind of like being in a church or a synagogue. There was this", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I feel like my father probably felt like his whole life was characterized by that description, that he'd been forgotten - forgotten by the angels, forgotten by the, you know, cupid, forgotten by - I"}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 48, "text": "sense of, like, the devotion of his fans to him and his devotion to the music and to things larger. And he ended it with what struck me as a benediction. And I forget exactly what he said. But, you know, to those of you who are going home, you know, to your families, enjoy your families. And to those of you who live alone, enjoy your solitude. And I thought, like, people don't say that. That's such a beautiful thing to say. It's such a... A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I feel like my father probably felt like his whole life was characterized by that description, that he'd been forgotten - forgotten by the angels, forgotten by the, you know, cupid, forgotten by - I"}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 49, "text": "...Lovely way of sending people home and sending home people who are going home alone. Enjoy your solitude. A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 50, "text": "Yeah, that's what - that was it. A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. May these songs find you in your solitude. May the blessings..."}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 51, "text": "I thought that was just beautiful. A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, the exact quote is, \"may the blessings find you in your solitude.\""}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 52, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Adam Cohen. He's the son of the late Leonard Cohen. And there's a new collection of Leonard Cohen's final poems, lyrics and drawings and notebook entries previously unpublished. And it's called \"The Flame,\" and Adam wrote the introduction to it. We're going to take a short break, and then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this is a man who, as he says and I think you've just played it - you know, although he had a reputation as a ladies' man, you know, he was - he had to grit his teeth at the 10,000 nights he spe"}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 53, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Adam Cohen, and he's the son of Leonard Cohen. And now there's a new collection of Leonard Cohen's final lyrics, poems, notebook entries and drawings. And these are all collected in the new book \"The Flame.\" And Adam Cohen wrote the introduction to it. So you were born in 1972. Some of your father's most famous songs were already written and recorded by the time you were born - \"Suzanne,\" \"So Long, Marianne,\" \"Hey, That's No Way To Say Goodbye,\" \"Bird On The Wire,\" \"Chelsea Hotel,\" \"Who By Fire.\" So did you hear them a... A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this is a man who, as he says and I think you've just played it - you know, although he had a reputation as a ladies' man, you know, he was - he had to grit his teeth at the 10,000 nights he spe"}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 54, "text": "So did you hear them a lot when you were growing up? I mean, so, like, when I was growing up, I thought about songs and singers. But I didn't think about songwriters, you know? I just thought about, like, what's the song and who's singing it? But you were - your father was a songwriter. So you must have had an awareness that songwriting was a craft. It's something people actually did. And you must've been - like, grown up with these songs. I don't know if he played them around the house. I don't know if you even heard them when you were young. A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Are you saying he didn't need me?"}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 55, "text": "Oh, of course. Right. A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course I heard them. Yeah, no, I was a 5-year-old on the side of stages watching them being performed and..."}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 56, "text": "How old were you when your parents separated? A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Looking out into the - looking at the faces of audiences, you know, in different times and places. And I was a deep, deep admirer of the melodies of - at first, you know, as a child, just the melod"}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 57, "text": "So how much did you get to see your father after that? A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Five, 6 - I don't remember."}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 58, "text": "So a caravan is like a mobile home? A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "vivid colors and dimensions. And the fact that my father was able to stay in his children's life despite those complications and then some was remarkable - is remarkable to me. My mother moved my sist"}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 59, "text": "OK. A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. The - like, what do you call those? Like a jet stream kind of thing."}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 60, "text": "How long did he do that for? A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And my mother didn't want him on the property. So, you know, every day after school, the bus would drop us off. And we'd see Dad in his caravan. And so I remember..."}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 61, "text": "There's something really terrible that happened to him that in its own way is maybe responsible for the revival of his career and for his reconnection to people around the world. And that's - he had an accountant or a business manager who, like, drained your father's savings and sold the publishing rights to your father's song. That's kind of like stealing his soul to sell all the publishing rights to his songs. I mean, that just seems like such a transgression. And like, I think it's your sister who discovered that it happened. Like, your father didn't even know. A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he did that and variations of that throughout my entire life. And, you know, as I say, the intent to be part of his children's life - the deliberateness with which he contorted his own life and "}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 62, "text": "So did he ever get the song rights back? Because... A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "with the canon of his work and with his devotion to blackening pages in melody that he built the life he built for himself. And when he experienced this episode that you're referring to, it actually d"}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 63, "text": "...It seem it - really? A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 64, "text": "My guest is songwriter and singer Adam Cohen, who is the son of Leonard Cohen. Adam wrote the forward to a new collection of his father's previously unpublished writings called \"The Flame.\" We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. No, those are gone."}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 65, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with Adam Cohen. His father, Leonard Cohen, died two years ago. Adam has written the foreword to a new collection of his father's previously unpublished writings and drawings called \"The Flame.\" OK, so you are a singer-songwriter, too. You grew up with your father's voice. You grew up with him writing. You grew up with him reading to you. You watched him backstage as he performed. Was it hard for you to find, like, your own voice, to recognize that his voice was a part of you, that it influenced you in the way that people have a right to be influenced by the people who they take in as they're going through their formative years? Was it hard to acknowledge that influence in the same - and at the same time figure out who you were as a singer and songwriter? A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. No, those are gone."}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 66, "text": "You've talked a little bit about how other people might see you as Leonard Cohen's son, but you haven't talked about yourself, about your own process of development as a songwriter and finding your own voice. A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I'm triggered to answer that in two ways. I mean, the first is to look at it statistically, you know? Statistically, I think in humanity, you know, Napoleon's son, Frank Sinatra's son - you "}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 67, "text": "You have the right to talk about yourself without apologizing. Even if it's unimportant you have the right to talk about it and the right to talk about yourself and... A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 68, "text": "...To claim your own identity. A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 69, "text": "All right. All right. So with all that said, I want to play a song of yours. Given how careful you are about curating things, I'm going to ask you to choose a song", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So these are your facts, ma'am."}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 70, "text": ". And I know this is - I'm forcing you. This is against your will. You'd probably me rather not play anything. But consider yourself forced to choose a song of yours for us to play. A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So these are your facts, ma'am."}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 71, "text": "OK, here's Adam Cohen.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, given the context, I think we should play a song that my old man always loved. It was a song called \"What Other Guy.\""}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 72, "text": "A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, given the context, I think we should play a song that my old man always loved. It was a song called \"What Other Guy.\""}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 73, "text": "That's Adam Cohen singing his own song, \"What Other Guy.\" And Adam Cohn wrote the introduction to a new collection of his father - his late father Leonard Cohen's final poems, lyrics, notebook entries and drawings. It's called \"The Flame.\" Thank you for letting us", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I know what you look like in the morning. Your kisses are soft and warm. I can draw you with my eyes closed. I've seen you with nothing on but the radio. I know how many years of French you "}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 74, "text": "- letting us play that", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I know what you look like in the morning. Your kisses are soft and warm. I can draw you with my eyes closed. I've seen you with nothing on but the radio. I know how many years of French you "}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 75, "text": ". A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I know what you look like in the morning. Your kisses are soft and warm. I can draw you with my eyes closed. I've seen you with nothing on but the radio. I know how many years of French you "}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 76, "text": "Yeah. Yeah, kind of, kind of. Adam Cohen, I really appreciate you doing this. I know you're not very comfortable talking about your father or even talking about yourself in this kind of setting. So thank you again so much. A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're painting me out to be a real control freak. I love it."}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 77, "text": "Adam Cohen wrote the foreword to \"The Flame,\" the new collection of his father Leonard Cohen's previously unpublished lyrics, poems, notebook entries and drawings. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll talk about how terrorists, governments, political campaigns, even street gangs have weaponized social media with real-world consequences. Our guests will be P.W. Singer and Emerson Brooking, authors of the book \"Likewar.\" I'm Terry Gross. We'll close today with Leonard Cohen.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much - most gracious and patient of you. Thank you."}
{"id": "654808406", "date": "2018-10-08", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "New Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 78, "text": "L.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much - most gracious and patient of you. Thank you."}
{"id": "656509317", "date": "2018-10-11", "guest": "Vanessa Grigoriadis", "title": "How Notions Of Sex, Power And Consent Are Changing On College Campuses", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The Kavanaugh hearings and confirmation raised the question again, how do we decide who to believe when a woman says she was sexually assaulted by someone she knows behind a closed door and the man denies it? That's an issue universities have been grappling with. My guest Vanessa Grigoriadis is the author of \"Blurred Lines: Sex, Power And Consent On Campus.\" Over the course of three years, she interviewed 120 students from 20 universities, spoke with nearly 80 administrators and experts and read dozens of case reports. She says that while writing the book, she witnessed a historic moment when survivors moved from the shadows to the spotlight, first on campus, and then nationwide with the #MeToo movement. Grigoriadis is a contributing editor at The New York Times Magazine and Vanity Fair and has won a National Magazine Award. Vanessa Grigoriadis, welcome to FRESH AIR. You know, you write in your book that there's a new understanding of what rape and sexual assault means that started on college campuses, but with the #MeToo movement, it spread beyond campuses. What did the Kavanaugh hearings and confirmation tell you about how far that new understanding has spread? I guess what I'm asking you is this. If the Republican senators in the Judiciary Committee had gone to college campuses, what do you think some of the things are they would've been told about what to take into consideration before voting - things that they might not have thought of...", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "656509317", "date": "2018-10-11", "guest": "Vanessa Grigoriadis", "title": "How Notions Of Sex, Power And Consent Are Changing On College Campuses", "question_index": 1, "text": "...In part because the Republicans on the judiciary were men. A lot of them were older men. If - you know, their college days were very different in terms of thinking about sexual assault.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "656509317", "date": "2018-10-11", "guest": "Vanessa Grigoriadis", "title": "How Notions Of Sex, Power And Consent Are Changing On College Campuses", "question_index": 2, "text": "Last Tuesday, while the FBI investigation was still going on into Brett Kavanaugh, President Trump spoke to reporters on the South Lawn of the White House before boarding a flight. This was October 2. And so this was before the Senate voted on the Kavanaugh nomination for the Supreme Court - before they confirmed him. So this is President Trump.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. If those senators had been on college campuses as presidents or administrators or Title IX officers, they would've had a completely different set of questions - right? - because they would have "}
{"id": "656509317", "date": "2018-10-11", "guest": "Vanessa Grigoriadis", "title": "How Notions Of Sex, Power And Consent Are Changing On College Campuses", "question_index": 3, "text": "President Trump has, you know, kind of made fun of Blasey Ford, and he said that her accusations were a hoax - a Democratic hoax. So this is interpretation here. But what message do you think that is sending women who have been harassed, assaulted or raped? And I wonder if you've been talking to students - if you've gone back to any of the students who you interviewed for your book and asked them about the impact of the Kavanaugh hearings?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I say that it's a very scary time for young men in America when you can be guilty of something that you may not be guilty of, which is a very, very - this is a very difficult time. What's happen"}
{"id": "656509317", "date": "2018-10-11", "guest": "Vanessa Grigoriadis", "title": "How Notions Of Sex, Power And Consent Are Changing On College Campuses", "question_index": 4, "text": "So there's been two times when the Judiciary Committee and then all of Congress have had to vote about whether the woman who accused the man of sexual harassment or assault was lying or telling the truth and if there is enough evidence to prevent the Supreme Court nominee from becoming confirmed. So there was the Anita Hill-Clarence Thomas case and now the Blasey Ford-Brett Kavanaugh case. And in both cases, judiciary and Congress voted for the man and against the woman making the accusations. Let's look at how colleges handle accusations. You write about how colleges have developed their own system of helping to bring some kind of justice when accusations - when women come forward to accuse a fellow student of sexual assault or rape. They're not courts per se, but they are some forms of proceedings. Can you give us a couple of examples of colleges that are doing this and how they do it - like what their procedures are?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I have spoken to students that were in my book, and the survivors are absolutely devastated, horrified by what Trump said. I think that they've found a lot of the Trump presidency to be, in thei"}
{"id": "656509317", "date": "2018-10-11", "guest": "Vanessa Grigoriadis", "title": "How Notions Of Sex, Power And Consent Are Changing On College Campuses", "question_index": 5, "text": "So what are these proceedings like? Do they bring people in who will support their point of view? Is there an investigation? How does it work?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, all colleges have to be doing it. It's the rule. You've got to have a Title IX office, and the Title IX office has to take any claims of sexual assault or misconduct or groping or violent rape v"}
{"id": "656509317", "date": "2018-10-11", "guest": "Vanessa Grigoriadis", "title": "How Notions Of Sex, Power And Consent Are Changing On College Campuses", "question_index": 6, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, the No. 1 thing to understand is that across the country, all of these courts are different, and they're different according to whether the university wants to take this super seriously or n"}
{"id": "656509317", "date": "2018-10-11", "guest": "Vanessa Grigoriadis", "title": "How Notions Of Sex, Power And Consent Are Changing On College Campuses", "question_index": 7, "text": "Part of the reason why these college systems have developed to deal with charges of a sexual assault is because President Obama sent out, basically, a letter of guidance, right? It wasn't a law, but it was a letter of guidance about how colleges should go about trying to handle accusations of sexual assault. And this was built on Title IX. And so explain what Title IX is, which was passed as a small part of a larger piece of legislation and signed by President Nixon in 1972.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They're on their own. They're at school. They're afraid. They ask somebody's, you know, older brother, who sets them up with some attorney who may or may not have an idea of how to actually help this "}
{"id": "656509317", "date": "2018-10-11", "guest": "Vanessa Grigoriadis", "title": "How Notions Of Sex, Power And Consent Are Changing On College Campuses", "question_index": 8, "text": "President Trump's Secretary of Education Betsy DeVos is changing the guidelines for sexual assault on campus. And tell us about the changes that she's making or is on the verge of making.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Title IX is just a short law that nobody in a university should be discriminated against on the basis of gender. And I knew it in the '90s as a law that would protect women's sports, which, of cour"}
{"id": "656509317", "date": "2018-10-11", "guest": "Vanessa Grigoriadis", "title": "How Notions Of Sex, Power And Consent Are Changing On College Campuses", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well, she was afraid she'd be smothered to death.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Betsy DeVos has been very concerned about the due process in campus courts. She has also made it fairly clear that she is aligned with Trump in believing that this is a scarier time for boys. So she i"}
{"id": "656509317", "date": "2018-10-11", "guest": "Vanessa Grigoriadis", "title": "How Notions Of Sex, Power And Consent Are Changing On College Campuses", "question_index": 10, "text": "Unintentionally. Unintentionally smothered to death.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was afraid that she was going to be killed."}
{"id": "656509317", "date": "2018-10-11", "guest": "Vanessa Grigoriadis", "title": "How Notions Of Sex, Power And Consent Are Changing On College Campuses", "question_index": 11, "text": "And she was prevented from leaving. So is Betsy DeVos trying to say Title IX, which mandates against gender discrimination on campus, needs to be applied to discrimination against men because so many men are being wrongfully accused? Is that her case?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "656509317", "date": "2018-10-11", "guest": "Vanessa Grigoriadis", "title": "How Notions Of Sex, Power And Consent Are Changing On College Campuses", "question_index": 12, "text": "So have her guidelines taken effect yet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That is exactly what she's saying. Yeah. She's interested in this idea of gender discrimination going both ways."}
{"id": "656509317", "date": "2018-10-11", "guest": "Vanessa Grigoriadis", "title": "How Notions Of Sex, Power And Consent Are Changing On College Campuses", "question_index": 13, "text": "My guest is Vanessa Grigoriadis, author of the new book, \"Blurred Lines: Sex, Power, And Consent On Campus.\" We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. They haven't. They were leaked to The New York Times. There will be a notice-and-comment period. You know, we have to see also if she's going to put these out. These were a draft that The Times go"}
{"id": "656509317", "date": "2018-10-11", "guest": "Vanessa Grigoriadis", "title": "How Notions Of Sex, Power And Consent Are Changing On College Campuses", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Vanessa Grigoriadis, author of the new book, \"Blurred Lines: Sex, Power, And Consent On Campus.\" So let's talk about the definition of sexual assault and how that is maybe changing. What was the kind of common understanding of the definition of sexual assault in the three years you were talking to people on college campuses?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. They haven't. They were leaked to The New York Times. There will be a notice-and-comment period. You know, we have to see also if she's going to put these out. These were a draft that The Times go"}
{"id": "656509317", "date": "2018-10-11", "guest": "Vanessa Grigoriadis", "title": "How Notions Of Sex, Power And Consent Are Changing On College Campuses", "question_index": 15, "text": "So is there no commonly held understanding of what the definition of sexual assault is now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was a huge shift in the definition of sexual assault from, like, 2014 to '17 while I was there, and I watched as it happened. Many students said to me that they weren't sure if groping counted a"}
{"id": "656509317", "date": "2018-10-11", "guest": "Vanessa Grigoriadis", "title": "How Notions Of Sex, Power And Consent Are Changing On College Campuses", "question_index": 16, "text": "So you also say that the definition of consent is being redefined. And the slogan used to be no means no, but now it's yes means yes. What's the difference between no means no and yes means yes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think that there's a national understanding of what the definition of sexual assault is. I think that people who are enlightened about this issue understand that it doesn't have to include pen"}
{"id": "656509317", "date": "2018-10-11", "guest": "Vanessa Grigoriadis", "title": "How Notions Of Sex, Power And Consent Are Changing On College Campuses", "question_index": 17, "text": "So why were you resistant to this yes means yes standard, and why did you change your mind?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there's a huge difference. Something like yes means yes is, OK, until you get some sort of yes, you don't really have permission to touch somebody. Now, a yes, you know, in the college definitio"}
{"id": "656509317", "date": "2018-10-11", "guest": "Vanessa Grigoriadis", "title": "How Notions Of Sex, Power And Consent Are Changing On College Campuses", "question_index": 18, "text": "You write that the strongest argument for affirmative consent for yes means yes is that it frees girls from the cage of socialized politeness. What do you mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm an adult. You know, I'm in my 40s. And I know that that's not the way sex usually happens. I mean, sex is something that is unspoken, that's kind of energy between people and more exciting, "}
{"id": "656509317", "date": "2018-10-11", "guest": "Vanessa Grigoriadis", "title": "How Notions Of Sex, Power And Consent Are Changing On College Campuses", "question_index": 19, "text": "Well, you know, the thing about yes means yes is, a lot of people say, that's so awkward to kind of have these, like, rules, like, almost like a questionnaire. Like, I authorize you to, like, you know, take off my shirt, or whatever. But it's equally awkward, I think, for the woman to be in the place where the man is making all these advances and you have to say no, no, no. Stop. No. I really mean stop. No. Ok. I'll leave. No. It just puts all of the responsibility on her, and it makes it, like, really awkward. And it's not a shared awkwardness. It's, like, one person having the full burden of the awkwardness.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one of the complexities of sexual assault is that girls don't always say no. They certainly don't say it that way - no, get away from me, I'm pushing you away. Right? They say, well, maybe anoth"}
{"id": "656509317", "date": "2018-10-11", "guest": "Vanessa Grigoriadis", "title": "How Notions Of Sex, Power And Consent Are Changing On College Campuses", "question_index": 20, "text": "Was that the first time that happened to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know? 'Cause I didn't want his arm around me. And he said, yeah, I get it. Consent. I totally get it. I understand. I'm glad I asked."}
{"id": "656509317", "date": "2018-10-11", "guest": "Vanessa Grigoriadis", "title": "How Notions Of Sex, Power And Consent Are Changing On College Campuses", "question_index": 21, "text": "My guest is Vanessa Grigoriadis, author of \"Blurred Lines: Sex, Power, And Consent On Campus.\" We'll talk more after a break. Ken Tucker will review an early recording by Hazel Dickens and Alice Gerrard, who brought a feminist perspective to bluegrass. And Justin Chang will review \"First Man\" starring Ryan Gosling as astronaut Neil Armstrong, the first human to walk on the moon. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "that'd happened to me. I mean, yeah. I didn't think that that man intended me harm, but I didn't want his arm around me. I had no interest in him. I'm married. I was just there with my girlfriends hav"}
{"id": "656509317", "date": "2018-10-11", "guest": "Vanessa Grigoriadis", "title": "How Notions Of Sex, Power And Consent Are Changing On College Campuses", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Vanessa Grigoriadis, author of \"Blurred Lines: Sex, Power, And Consent On Campus.\" Over the course of three years, she interviewed 120 students from 20 universities, spoke with nearly 80 administrators and experts, and read dozens of case reports. Grigoriadis is a contributing editor at The New York Times Magazine and Vanity Fair and has won a National Magazine Award. Part of her book is about the culture of fraternities and the frat parties that often lead to binge drinking. One of the fraternities you write about in your book is Delta Kappa Epsilon, known as Deke, DKE, which is at Yale. George W. Bush was part of that fraternity, and so was Brett Kavanaugh. Why did you decide to look at Deke, and what did you learn about it in terms of the sexual environment?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "that'd happened to me. I mean, yeah. I didn't think that that man intended me harm, but I didn't want his arm around me. I had no interest in him. I'm married. I was just there with my girlfriends hav"}
{"id": "656509317", "date": "2018-10-11", "guest": "Vanessa Grigoriadis", "title": "How Notions Of Sex, Power And Consent Are Changing On College Campuses", "question_index": 23, "text": "What are some of the ways colleges, college administrators are trying to deal with fraternities and with the binge drinking at fraternity parties?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that Deke, at the time that Kavanaugh was there, was actually a pretty uncool thing to be part of. It was a repository of future power. And people like the ones you just described were i"}
{"id": "656509317", "date": "2018-10-11", "guest": "Vanessa Grigoriadis", "title": "How Notions Of Sex, Power And Consent Are Changing On College Campuses", "question_index": 24, "text": "The fraternities are doing that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There are some universities who have moved pledging either into January, or they've moved it to sophomore year entirely because they realize that, you know, having kids start to pledge in September wh"}
{"id": "656509317", "date": "2018-10-11", "guest": "Vanessa Grigoriadis", "title": "How Notions Of Sex, Power And Consent Are Changing On College Campuses", "question_index": 25, "text": "So, you know, I didn't know this till I read your book, but sororities are - by the Greek code or whatever it is - sororities aren't allowed to serve alcohol at their parties. Only fraternities can do that. And that's a kind of unequal status right there because it means that it's the men on campus who are going to control of the party atmosphere since people expect alcohol at parties.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Extensively - sure. There are some fraternities that are doing that. Yeah, definitely. I wrote extensively about Wesleyan, where I went to school, which is, you know, not exactly known as a frat ha"}
{"id": "656509317", "date": "2018-10-11", "guest": "Vanessa Grigoriadis", "title": "How Notions Of Sex, Power And Consent Are Changing On College Campuses", "question_index": 26, "text": "You know, some women are saying now what we really need to do in order to, like, stop or at least diminish the amount of sexual assault on campus is to stop rape culture. What is meant by that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely. I mean, this is the key issue that universities have. Boys still really dominate the social scene on college campuses. Not only are 1 in 6 American boys who go to four-year colleges ar"}
{"id": "656509317", "date": "2018-10-11", "guest": "Vanessa Grigoriadis", "title": "How Notions Of Sex, Power And Consent Are Changing On College Campuses", "question_index": 27, "text": "Let's talk about the message that young men and women are getting from pop feminism. And I'll use Beyonce as an example here. I mean, she is a symbol of empowerment to so many women. And so many men and women just, I mean, adore her, understandably. At the same time, in so many of her concerts over the years, she's dressed in very sexualized clothing. And a lot of the clothing, it's - and this is true of a lot of women like pop stars and hip-hop stars. It's very sexualized and kind of designed to call attention to the most sexual areas of the body. So, you know, you could see it one way, like it's a sign of my sexual empowerment, or you could see it another way, I'm offering myself to you as an object, as a sexual - as somebody - I want you to look at me sexually. I want you to see my power as being sexual power or at least partly sexual power. And I am inviting you to really focus your gaze on the most sexual parts of my body. And, again, you can see that as empowerment or you could see that as objectification. And I'm just wondering if you have any thoughts about that or if that's an issue that came up a lot when talking to young women on campuses.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So rape culture is a term that really just tries to connect the dots between an American society that turns this blind eye to sexual assault and the true experience of girls, which is that they are ex"}
{"id": "656509317", "date": "2018-10-11", "guest": "Vanessa Grigoriadis", "title": "How Notions Of Sex, Power And Consent Are Changing On College Campuses", "question_index": 28, "text": "So you write in your book, we're in the process of developing new power dynamics in the bedroom, an area where feminism has previously not been able to reach. So just explain what you mean by that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's certainly not an issue that came up when I spoke with the young women because they completely believe it's empowering. But it's an issue that came up a lot for me because I found myself rea"}
{"id": "656509317", "date": "2018-10-11", "guest": "Vanessa Grigoriadis", "title": "How Notions Of Sex, Power And Consent Are Changing On College Campuses", "question_index": 29, "text": "Vanessa Grigoriadis, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think this raising of demons that has been going on through the #MeToo era is allowing women not only to say, these are the things that happened to me in the past that I might call sexual assa"}
{"id": "656509317", "date": "2018-10-11", "guest": "Vanessa Grigoriadis", "title": "How Notions Of Sex, Power And Consent Are Changing On College Campuses", "question_index": 30, "text": "Vanessa Grigoriadis is the author of \"Blurred Lines: Sex, Power And Consent On Campus\" (ph). After a break, Ken Tucker will review a new album by Hazel Dickens and Alice Gerrard, who brought a feminist perspective to bluegrass. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much, Terry."}
{"id": "658442355", "date": "2018-10-18", "guest": "David Barstow", "title": "'Times' Journalists Puncture Myth Of Trump As Self-Made Billionaire", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Donald Trump's book \"The Art Of The Deal,\" his TV show \"The Apprentice\" and his successful presidential campaign were based on his image as a brilliant deal-maker and self-made billionaire. But recent New York Times reporting reveals a different narrative. It's based on a trove of more than a hundred thousand pages of documents, including confidential tax returns and financial records given to the Times by a secret source. The documents reveal that by age 3, Trump was earning $200,000 a year as measured in today's dollars from his father Fred Trump's real estate empire. Fred Trump made Donald Trump a millionaire by the time Donald was 8. Over the years, Donald received today's equivalent of $413 million from his father's businesses. Much of this money was transferred from father to son with the help of schemes designed to avoid paying taxes, some of which, according to my guests, were outright fraud. Susanne Craig and David Barstow are two of the reporters at The New York Times who wrote a long investigative article about the many tax maneuvers Fred Trump devised to pass his vast fortune onto his children. Susanne Craig writes about the intersection of politics, money and government for the Times. David Barstow has won three Pulitzer Prizes. In response to their reporting, a lawyer for President Trump provided a written statement saying, quote, \"there was no fraud or tax evasion by anyone. The facts upon which the Times bases its false allegations are extremely inaccurate,\" unquote. But neither the president nor his lawyers disputed any of the specifics in the Times' financial reporting. Susanne Craig, David Barstow, congratulations on this extraordinary piece of reporting, and welcome to FRESH AIR. It's such a pleasure to have you here. Give us a sense of Fred Trump, Donald Trump's father's, real estate empire when it was at its peak.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "658442355", "date": "2018-10-18", "guest": "David Barstow", "title": "'Times' Journalists Puncture Myth Of Trump As Self-Made Billionaire", "question_index": 1, "text": "So one of the paradoxes here is that Fred Trump built his fortune in part on taking advantage of cheap federal loans, especially after World War II, when GIs returning from the war really needed housing. And yet, he didn't pay the taxes that he owed, or he didn't pay nearly the amount of taxes that he owed. So he took in a lot of federal dollars and didn't give the federal government what he was supposed to give it at tax time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Monster complexes. So we're not talking two-, three-unit buildings. We're talking about buildings with hundreds of units."}
{"id": "658442355", "date": "2018-10-18", "guest": "David Barstow", "title": "'Times' Journalists Puncture Myth Of Trump As Self-Made Billionaire", "question_index": 2, "text": "Your investigation really, like, deconstructs the Donald Trump myth of the self-made man who got, like, a $1 million loan from his father and used that to build this enormous fortune and this real estate empire. The actual story, which you report, starts when he's, like, 3 years old and starts getting, like, $200,000 a year in today's dollars. So what was the process by which by age 3, he was getting hundreds of thousands of dollars from his father?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's exactly right. He felt he was vehemently opposed to the idea that as he passed this fortune onto his family, that he should pay any kind of tax whatsoever on the transfer of that wealth to his "}
{"id": "658442355", "date": "2018-10-18", "guest": "David Barstow", "title": "'Times' Journalists Puncture Myth Of Trump As Self-Made Billionaire", "question_index": 3, "text": "Wait. Wait. Could we just stop a second?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That started in 1949. And it was one of the projects that had got - that Fred Trump had received government funding to build. It was a complex called Beach Haven. And what Fred Trump did - it was quit"}
{"id": "658442355", "date": "2018-10-18", "guest": "David Barstow", "title": "'Times' Journalists Puncture Myth Of Trump As Self-Made Billionaire", "question_index": 4, "text": "I don't really understand how 3-year-old Donald Trump can be his father's landlord. Can you explain that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep."}
{"id": "658442355", "date": "2018-10-18", "guest": "David Barstow", "title": "'Times' Journalists Puncture Myth Of Trump As Self-Made Billionaire", "question_index": 5, "text": "So what are some of the ways that by the time Donald Trump was a teenager, he was already wealthy? What are some of the other ways his father gave him money?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. It was his land to do what he wanted with. And he put it in a trust, in this instance, when they were very young for their benefit and began paying them rent. It's completely legal. But that's s"}
{"id": "658442355", "date": "2018-10-18", "guest": "David Barstow", "title": "'Times' Journalists Puncture Myth Of Trump As Self-Made Billionaire", "question_index": 6, "text": "So you say by the time he was 29, in 1975, Donald Trump had collected nearly 9 million - the equivalent of $9 million in today's dollars from his father. When he was 30, in 1976, the myth of Donald Trump really starts to expand. There's a 1976 article in your newspaper, The New York Times, and you describe it as one of the first major Donald Trump profiles and a cornerstone of decades of mythmaking about his wealth. What did the article say? What were the main points of this 1976 article about Donald Trump?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, some of these revenue streams were relatively modest. Some of them were kind of one-hit wonders. But when you added it all up, it was this incredible stream of money that made Donald Trump -"}
{"id": "658442355", "date": "2018-10-18", "guest": "David Barstow", "title": "'Times' Journalists Puncture Myth Of Trump As Self-Made Billionaire", "question_index": 7, "text": "And I guess Donald Trump got used to people taking him at his word, even when his word wasn't true.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it was a spectacular con."}
{"id": "658442355", "date": "2018-10-18", "guest": "David Barstow", "title": "'Times' Journalists Puncture Myth Of Trump As Self-Made Billionaire", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, let me re-introduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guests are Susanne Craig and David Barstow of The New York Times, who wrote a remarkable investigative piece on President Trump's inherited money from his father, the loans he got from his father, the tax evasion schemes the family had. And that was published a couple of weeks ago. You can find it online. We're going to talk more about how Donald Trump engaged in suspect tax schemes as he reaped riches from his father after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And these things build up. Right? They're like these layers. Right? And reporters come along, and they are assigned to do some story about Donald Trump. And they go look at the clips or they go "}
{"id": "658442355", "date": "2018-10-18", "guest": "David Barstow", "title": "'Times' Journalists Puncture Myth Of Trump As Self-Made Billionaire", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guests are New York Times reporters Susanne Craig and David Barstow, two of the three writers who reported just a couple of weeks ago on how Donald Trump engaged in suspect tax schemes as he reaped riches from his father. And it deconstructs the whole Donald Trump myth about how he's a self-made millionaire or billionaire. And it shows, like, how much money Fred Trump, Donald's father, funneled to him and his other siblings and how they came up with schemes to avoid paying taxes, making Donald Trump a very, very wealthy man by the time he was a teenager. OK. So in addition to some of the tax schemes we talked about, Fred Trump made a lot of loans to Donald Trump. Donald Trump has always said that he got a million-dollar loan from his father and helped parlay that into his own empire. So how much money would you estimate Fred Trump gave Donald Trump in loans?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And these things build up. Right? They're like these layers. Right? And reporters come along, and they are assigned to do some story about Donald Trump. And they go look at the clips or they go "}
{"id": "658442355", "date": "2018-10-18", "guest": "David Barstow", "title": "'Times' Journalists Puncture Myth Of Trump As Self-Made Billionaire", "question_index": 10, "text": "So how did Donald Trump use the money that was loaned from his father?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We were able to document in real dollars $60 million in loans, not one million. In today's dollars, it equates to $140 million in loans, which is on top of the $413 million in direct wealth that we sa"}
{"id": "658442355", "date": "2018-10-18", "guest": "David Barstow", "title": "'Times' Journalists Puncture Myth Of Trump As Self-Made Billionaire", "question_index": 11, "text": "So he gets a lot of money from his father, tries to build his own empire and ends up in debt in a lot of instances, instead of making a fortune from his own investments.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He used the money for many of his ventures. He had Trump Tower. Money that he got from Fred Trump was used to support that. It was used to support his ventures in Atlantic City and elsewhere. Ma"}
{"id": "658442355", "date": "2018-10-18", "guest": "David Barstow", "title": "'Times' Journalists Puncture Myth Of Trump As Self-Made Billionaire", "question_index": 12, "text": "And this was, like, $3 1/2 million worth of chips. Right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was one just almost unbelievable moment in the story, and you see it in 1990. And this is a time in, you know, the back end of 1990. And Donald Trump is in incredible financial distress. A numbe"}
{"id": "658442355", "date": "2018-10-18", "guest": "David Barstow", "title": "'Times' Journalists Puncture Myth Of Trump As Self-Made Billionaire", "question_index": 13, "text": "So what you're saying, I think, is that at the end of Fred Trump's life - or toward the end of Fred Trump's life, Donald Trump tried to take advantage of him for Donald Trump's own good, to help Donald Trump bail himself out. And Fred Trump, Donald's father, became suspicious of the son that he had helped with so much money over so many years.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was $3 1/2 millon worth of casino chips. And at this period, his father is there for him at every turn in every document that we can see. And Donald Trump, at this period, has a lawyer - one of his"}
{"id": "658442355", "date": "2018-10-18", "guest": "David Barstow", "title": "'Times' Journalists Puncture Myth Of Trump As Self-Made Billionaire", "question_index": 14, "text": "My guests are New York Times reporters David Barstow and Susanne Craig. After a break, we'll talk about another scheme used to transfer wealth from Fred Trump's real estate empire to his children. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What we know for sure is that Fred Trump perceived this as an attempt by his son to gain complete control over his estate and, potentially, to use the empire that Fred Trump had doggedly and patiently"}
{"id": "658442355", "date": "2018-10-18", "guest": "David Barstow", "title": "'Times' Journalists Puncture Myth Of Trump As Self-Made Billionaire", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with New York Times reporters Susanne Craig and David Barstow who, along with Russ Buettner, spent a year and a half investigating how Donald Trump's father, Fred Trump, used various tax schemes to transfer about 413 million in today's dollars from Fred's real estate empire to Donald. The reporters say one of the family's tax schemes involve fraud. This story offers a completely different narrative than the one Donald Trump has always presented of himself as a self-made billionaire. One of the Trump family concerns when Fred Trump was old was that he might die owning an empire and having lots of money, meaning that he'd have to pay taxes on all of it. And I think the taxes would have been 55 percent. And so Donald Trump and his siblings came up with a plan that involved - and this is something that you discovered. They came up with a plan that involved starting a company they called All County Building Supply & Maintenance. This was in 1992. Susanne, would you describe how this company functioned?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What we know for sure is that Fred Trump perceived this as an attempt by his son to gain complete control over his estate and, potentially, to use the empire that Fred Trump had doggedly and patiently"}
{"id": "658442355", "date": "2018-10-18", "guest": "David Barstow", "title": "'Times' Journalists Puncture Myth Of Trump As Self-Made Billionaire", "question_index": 16, "text": "So the sole purpose, as far as you can tell, of this company that the Trump children created was to inflate the prices of things like boilers and stove-refrigerators and other, like, things that buildings need. So they'd buy them, inflate the price, sell it to Fred Trump for his real estate empire, pocket the difference so that they'd make hundreds of dollars every time they'd sell something to Fred Trump. And that was a way of, like, transferring money from Fred Trump to the siblings.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. This was an interesting moment because, when you think of Fred Trump, you think of all the buildings that he owned. He owned numerous buildings in Queens and Brooklyn worth hundreds of millions "}
{"id": "658442355", "date": "2018-10-18", "guest": "David Barstow", "title": "'Times' Journalists Puncture Myth Of Trump As Self-Made Billionaire", "question_index": 17, "text": "When the Trump siblings set up All County, this company that just existed to siphon money from Fred Trump and give it to the children, did Fred Trump know about the company - about the purpose of the company? Was he a knowing part of its creation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And as we started out on the reporting assignment, one of the questions - immediately, we knew Fred Trump drove a hard deal. He was very careful with his money. And every penny was, you know, yo"}
{"id": "658442355", "date": "2018-10-18", "guest": "David Barstow", "title": "'Times' Journalists Puncture Myth Of Trump As Self-Made Billionaire", "question_index": 18, "text": "And then, in a way, like, the collateral victims of these inflated costs were renters in a lot of Fred Trump properties because he used those inflated costs for boilers and refrigerators and stoves as a way to justify raising the rent on people living in government rent-controlled units.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We think that he absolutely was. He was in on the strategy meetings where they came up with these ideas. And it appealed to him because it was - he was someone who just hated the idea of paying any ki"}
{"id": "658442355", "date": "2018-10-18", "guest": "David Barstow", "title": "'Times' Journalists Puncture Myth Of Trump As Self-Made Billionaire", "question_index": 19, "text": "After Fred, the parent, died in June 1999 at age 93, you say the vast bulk of his empire was nowhere to be found in his estate and that that was a testament to the success of the tax strategies to transfer money to the Trump children. But you write, the single-largest item included in Fred Trump's estate tax return was a $10.3 million IOU from Donald Trump, money Donald Trump appeared to have borrowed the year before Fred Trump died. We've heard stories about Donald Trump's debt to banks. But this is the first I'm hearing that he owed his father millions of dollars when his father died.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. When you're an owner of a building and you have rent-controlled apartments - you have people living in them, you have to apply to the city or the state to have the rent increased. And yo"}
{"id": "658442355", "date": "2018-10-18", "guest": "David Barstow", "title": "'Times' Journalists Puncture Myth Of Trump As Self-Made Billionaire", "question_index": 20, "text": "My guests are New York Times reporters Susanne Craig and David Barstow. After a break, we'll talk more about the reporting into how Donald Trump became wealthy through money transferred from his father Fred Trump's real estate empire. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he owed his father money for most of his life. And there were repeated strategies through the years to do something about those unpaid debts that would accumulate. So for example, in the late 19"}
{"id": "658442355", "date": "2018-10-18", "guest": "David Barstow", "title": "'Times' Journalists Puncture Myth Of Trump As Self-Made Billionaire", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with New York Times reporters Susanne Craig and David Barstow who, along with Russ Buettner, published a long, investigative article this month about how Fred Trump used schemes to avoid paying taxes while transferring money from his real estate empire to Donald Trump. Measured in today's dollars, Donald received about 413 million. Susanne, after Fred Trump died, Donald Trump took the lead and decided they should sell off everything...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he owed his father money for most of his life. And there were repeated strategies through the years to do something about those unpaid debts that would accumulate. So for example, in the late 19"}
{"id": "658442355", "date": "2018-10-18", "guest": "David Barstow", "title": "'Times' Journalists Puncture Myth Of Trump As Self-Made Billionaire", "question_index": 22, "text": "...That Fred Trump still owned at the time of his death. Why did Donald Trump make that decision?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "658442355", "date": "2018-10-18", "guest": "David Barstow", "title": "'Times' Journalists Puncture Myth Of Trump As Self-Made Billionaire", "question_index": 23, "text": "So the buildings that were sold, were those buildings that Fred Trump had still owned at the time of his death? Or did it also include all the buildings that had been transferred from Fred Trump to the children?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the interesting thing about that sale - and it's something that we noticed again and again when we were doing our reporting - was that Fred Trump very much wanted this empire to stay in the family."}
{"id": "658442355", "date": "2018-10-18", "guest": "David Barstow", "title": "'Times' Journalists Puncture Myth Of Trump As Self-Made Billionaire", "question_index": 24, "text": "So it wasn't, like, the deal of the century that Donald Trump made?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They included both the buildings that had been transferred and the ones that he owned. It was pretty much his whole empire. And it sold - you know, the buildings that sold in 2004 were to a New York d"}
{"id": "658442355", "date": "2018-10-18", "guest": "David Barstow", "title": "'Times' Journalists Puncture Myth Of Trump As Self-Made Billionaire", "question_index": 25, "text": "So if the Trump family was involved with tax fraud and tax evasion schemes, how did they get all of this past the IRS?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It definitely wasn't."}
{"id": "658442355", "date": "2018-10-18", "guest": "David Barstow", "title": "'Times' Journalists Puncture Myth Of Trump As Self-Made Billionaire", "question_index": 26, "text": "Susanne, I'm going to ask you to choose either \"The Art Of The Deal,\" \"The Art Of The Comeback\" or \"The Apprentice\" and tell us what was actually going on in Donald Trump's financial life when these books or the show based on all his fabulous accomplishments and deals went public.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, first of all, they actually didn't completely get away with it. So it's true that the IRS actually did perform some audits on some of the tax returns that we described in the story. And in f"}
{"id": "658442355", "date": "2018-10-18", "guest": "David Barstow", "title": "'Times' Journalists Puncture Myth Of Trump As Self-Made Billionaire", "question_index": 27, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm thinking which one to choose."}
{"id": "658442355", "date": "2018-10-18", "guest": "David Barstow", "title": "'Times' Journalists Puncture Myth Of Trump As Self-Made Billionaire", "question_index": 28, "text": "I'm wondering how you feel knowing that you have just totally punctured the myth of how Donald Trump made his money and what he did with his money and his great negotiating, deal-making abilities. And so many people still believe the myth, and Donald Trump is still putting forward the myth.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm also thinking of, immediately, \"The Apprentice\" and the opening scene of \"The Apprentice\" and the song - money, money, money, money - that happened in 2004 right as the sale had gone through, the "}
{"id": "658442355", "date": "2018-10-18", "guest": "David Barstow", "title": "'Times' Journalists Puncture Myth Of Trump As Self-Made Billionaire", "question_index": 29, "text": "So you spent a lot of time in the past year and a half in a separate room in The New York Times that was basically sealed off to everybody except the three reporters working on this story. And all the documents that you drew from, that you got access to were locked up in this room. Who cleaned it? Who was allowed in to clean it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's interesting. When I think about that, I think you have to sort of - I go back to that idea - you know, the lie repeated over and over and passed down into history becomes fact. And I think that w"}
{"id": "658442355", "date": "2018-10-18", "guest": "David Barstow", "title": "'Times' Journalists Puncture Myth Of Trump As Self-Made Billionaire", "question_index": 30, "text": "A little claustrophobic too, I'd imagine.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "658442355", "date": "2018-10-18", "guest": "David Barstow", "title": "'Times' Journalists Puncture Myth Of Trump As Self-Made Billionaire", "question_index": 31, "text": "Did other people know why you were locked up in this room?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, it was."}
{"id": "658442355", "date": "2018-10-18", "guest": "David Barstow", "title": "'Times' Journalists Puncture Myth Of Trump As Self-Made Billionaire", "question_index": 32, "text": "Well, thank you for your reporting. And thank you for telling us about it. Susanne Craig, David Barstow, thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A few people knew. Our editors knew, but I think there was a lot of sort of mystery surrounding it. We kind of kept to ourselves. And yeah, it was difficult. Everybody - you know, people keep asking y"}
{"id": "658442355", "date": "2018-10-18", "guest": "David Barstow", "title": "'Times' Journalists Puncture Myth Of Trump As Self-Made Billionaire", "question_index": 33, "text": "Susanne Craig and David Barstow are reporters for The New York Times. Their article, reported with Russ Buettner, about the suspect tax schemes used to transfer wealth from Fred Trump to his children was published earlier this month in The New York Times magazine. Coming up, Ken Tucker reviews a new album by Eric Church, who performed in Vegas at the concert where a shooter opened fire on the audience. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "658781285", "date": "2018-10-19", "guest": "Ttimothee Chalamet", "title": "Father And Son Behind 'Beautiful Boy' Share Their Story Of Addiction And Recovery", "question_index": 0, "text": "Can you talk a little bit about how your son's personality changed when he was using meth?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Today we'll hear parts of Terry's interviews with the Sheffs - first her conversation with David and Nic Sheff recorded in 2008. She started with a question for David."}
{"id": "658781285", "date": "2018-10-19", "guest": "Ttimothee Chalamet", "title": "Father And Son Behind 'Beautiful Boy' Share Their Story Of Addiction And Recovery", "question_index": 1, "text": "Nic, why was meth your drug of preference? Like, when you started using it, what did it do for you that made you want more?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He became unrecognizable. He went from being just one of the most sort of light-filled extraordinary people I knew. And he became, you know, this ghost sort of coming in and out of the house. I mean, "}
{"id": "658781285", "date": "2018-10-19", "guest": "Ttimothee Chalamet", "title": "Father And Son Behind 'Beautiful Boy' Share Their Story Of Addiction And Recovery", "question_index": 2, "text": "You know, you've described yourself as formerly having been thin-skinned and sensitive, you know, before the meth. And you said that meth allowed you to, like, be confident and to not be so worried about what other people are thinking. It also, at some point, like once you really became an addict, it seemed to erase any trace of empathy that you had for anybody - certainly for your family. And did you - were you aware of that - aware that not only weren't you like the sensitive person anymore but that you were walking over people. You had no empathy at all. It didn't bother you stealing from your family. Like does - did that register on you at all? Did it mean anything? N.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, with all drugs, I sort of had this feeling. But, you know, with meth particularly, it was like - I had always been really just like consumed with like worry about making sure that everyb"}
{"id": "658781285", "date": "2018-10-19", "guest": "Ttimothee Chalamet", "title": "Father And Son Behind 'Beautiful Boy' Share Their Story Of Addiction And Recovery", "question_index": 3, "text": "Nic, how old were you when you started using? And how long did you use? N.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it did because I spent a lot of time when I was high talking to my friends and to myself and to anybody who would listen about how I was right and how I had the right to do this stuff. And, yo"}
{"id": "658781285", "date": "2018-10-19", "guest": "Ttimothee Chalamet", "title": "Father And Son Behind 'Beautiful Boy' Share Their Story Of Addiction And Recovery", "question_index": 4, "text": "David, there's a lot of guilt feelings that you express in your memoir about your son's addiction. You worry whether it's anything you did or said or didn't do or didn't say that might have led to his addiction or prevented him from giving it up sooner. During those periods when you felt guilty, what did you feel guilty about? What were the things that you thought you might have contributed to? D.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, I started like smoking pot and stuff when I was - you know, consistently, I guess when I was like 12. I was smoking pot a lot. And then, you know, in high school I had, you know, smoked "}
{"id": "658781285", "date": "2018-10-19", "guest": "Ttimothee Chalamet", "title": "Father And Son Behind 'Beautiful Boy' Share Their Story Of Addiction And Recovery", "question_index": 5, "text": "Nic, when your father was blaming himself for your addiction, were you blaming him too sometimes? N.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I felt guilty about everything. I tried to look back in our lives and to say, you know, what was it that ultimately caused Nic to go so out of control and to come so close to dying. You know, was it t"}
{"id": "658781285", "date": "2018-10-19", "guest": "Ttimothee Chalamet", "title": "Father And Son Behind 'Beautiful Boy' Share Their Story Of Addiction And Recovery", "question_index": 6, "text": "So what did you blame - when you would kind of put it all on him - or at least put some of it on him, what did you put there? N.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sometimes, absolutely. You know, it's easier to blame other people than to have to look at yourself."}
{"id": "658781285", "date": "2018-10-19", "guest": "Ttimothee Chalamet", "title": "Father And Son Behind 'Beautiful Boy' Share Their Story Of Addiction And Recovery", "question_index": 7, "text": "There were times when you went to rehab willingly and times when you went against your will. Is that correct? N.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I don't know. I mean, some of it was - yeah, sure, about the divorce and, you know, moving me out of the city when I was little. And I mean, you know - I mean, anything, just, you know, refusing t"}
{"id": "658781285", "date": "2018-10-19", "guest": "Ttimothee Chalamet", "title": "Father And Son Behind 'Beautiful Boy' Share Their Story Of Addiction And Recovery", "question_index": 8, "text": "Did it make a difference to the outcome whether you went there willingly or whether you went there against your will? N.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, absolutely."}
{"id": "658781285", "date": "2018-10-19", "guest": "Ttimothee Chalamet", "title": "Father And Son Behind 'Beautiful Boy' Share Their Story Of Addiction And Recovery", "question_index": 9, "text": "You know, a lot of people say that if you're an addict, you're not going to - you're not really going to be ready to stop until you've bottomed out. But you seem to hit bottom, like, a whole bunch of times... N.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not really. I mean, you know, each rehab that I went to I feel like really helped me a lot. And I learned more and more about myself, and I learned more and more about, you know, this disease and,"}
{"id": "658781285", "date": "2018-10-19", "guest": "Ttimothee Chalamet", "title": "Father And Son Behind 'Beautiful Boy' Share Their Story Of Addiction And Recovery", "question_index": 10, "text": "...One of which was when your arm got so badly infected from shooting up that when you went to - that when you finally went to the emergency room, the doctor thought he might need to amputate your arm - well, that somebody would need - a surgeon would need to amputate your arm. N.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "658781285", "date": "2018-10-19", "guest": "Ttimothee Chalamet", "title": "Father And Son Behind 'Beautiful Boy' Share Their Story Of Addiction And Recovery", "question_index": 11, "text": "So how come incidents like that weren't enough to get you to think, well, I'd better stop; I'm killing myself? N.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "658781285", "date": "2018-10-19", "guest": "Ttimothee Chalamet", "title": "Father And Son Behind 'Beautiful Boy' Share Their Story Of Addiction And Recovery", "question_index": 12, "text": "I think one of the things that you both had trouble with in the rehab programs was the, quote, \"God talk.\" You know, in the Alcoholics Anonymous model, you look toward a higher power to give you strength. And there is a saying that goes, let go, and let God. David, you describe in your memoir how you were or still are an atheist and raised Nic without religion. Did either... D.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview with David Sheff and his son Nic Sheff. They've both written memoirs about coping with Nic's addiction to methamphetamines, memoirs which are the"}
{"id": "658781285", "date": "2018-10-19", "guest": "Ttimothee Chalamet", "title": "Father And Son Behind 'Beautiful Boy' Share Their Story Of Addiction And Recovery", "question_index": 13, "text": "So... D.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But just to add, I think that that God thing, you know, in 12-step programs and in recovery - I think it is a huge problem because I try - I spent a lot of time, you know, trying so hard to practice p"}
{"id": "658781285", "date": "2018-10-19", "guest": "Ttimothee Chalamet", "title": "Father And Son Behind 'Beautiful Boy' Share Their Story Of Addiction And Recovery", "question_index": 14, "text": "So did that program not rely on the higher power principle? N.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But the true - but the other thing that I think is really important to - that we learned is that there isn't just one way. There isn't just one way to get healthy and sober and to stop using. The firs"}
{"id": "658781285", "date": "2018-10-19", "guest": "Ttimothee Chalamet", "title": "Father And Son Behind 'Beautiful Boy' Share Their Story Of Addiction And Recovery", "question_index": 15, "text": "David, did you find, you know, something that you could describe as a higher power? D.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It didn't rely on it completely, no. I mean, they - there was - definitely that was there, and that was a part of it. But there was a lot of, like, experimental therapies and stuff that they did there"}
{"id": "658781285", "date": "2018-10-19", "guest": "Ttimothee Chalamet", "title": "Father And Son Behind 'Beautiful Boy' Share Their Story Of Addiction And Recovery", "question_index": 16, "text": "What does prayer mean to you if you don't believe in a god? D.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I learned to define it in a way that worked for me, which is it's something about our humanity. I would - when I went to Al-Anon on meetings, I was told by someone, before this is over, you will belie"}
{"id": "658781285", "date": "2018-10-19", "guest": "Ttimothee Chalamet", "title": "Father And Son Behind 'Beautiful Boy' Share Their Story Of Addiction And Recovery", "question_index": 17, "text": "Nic, you make it seem that there's - a part of what saved you from your meth addiction was a degree of self-knowledge that you were helped to acquire in your last rehab. And that, I think, was the rehab in which you were diagnosed with having bipolar disorder, which is basically manic depression. Did that help getting that diagnosis and then getting the medication to deal with the diagnosis? N.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's a really good question, and I don't even know the answer. I guess it was a reflection of how desperate I was, that unconsciously, without saying, I'm going to pray, I was saying, please"}
{"id": "658781285", "date": "2018-10-19", "guest": "Ttimothee Chalamet", "title": "Father And Son Behind 'Beautiful Boy' Share Their Story Of Addiction And Recovery", "question_index": 18, "text": "Well, listen, congratulations to both of you on the books and on the sobriety, Nic. And, you know... N.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nic tells a story in his book that to me is so profound, and it's stunning - just a beautiful way, I think. He came to see us, Karen, my wife, and Jasper and Daisy. We were in - so we hadn't seen Nic "}
{"id": "658781285", "date": "2018-10-19", "guest": "Ttimothee Chalamet", "title": "Father And Son Behind 'Beautiful Boy' Share Their Story Of Addiction And Recovery", "question_index": 19, "text": "...Good luck with - you know, with continuing it and everything. You know, I wish you well. Thank you both so much. N.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "658781285", "date": "2018-10-19", "guest": "Ttimothee Chalamet", "title": "Father And Son Behind 'Beautiful Boy' Share Their Story Of Addiction And Recovery", "question_index": 20, "text": "David Sheff, welcome back to FRESH AIR. So... D.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies in for Terry Gross. The new film \"Beautiful Boy\" stars Steve Carell as a father struggling with his son's drug addiction. Today we're listening to Terry's interviews"}
{"id": "658781285", "date": "2018-10-19", "guest": "Ttimothee Chalamet", "title": "Father And Son Behind 'Beautiful Boy' Share Their Story Of Addiction And Recovery", "question_index": 21, "text": "It's a pleasure to have you back. Addiction as a brain disease is one of the main points of your book, but what do you mean by that? D.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hi, Terry. Thank you."}
{"id": "658781285", "date": "2018-10-19", "guest": "Ttimothee Chalamet", "title": "Father And Son Behind 'Beautiful Boy' Share Their Story Of Addiction And Recovery", "question_index": 22, "text": "So, you know, you write in the book that going through detox is just the first step. You know, after you've given up the drug and you've come out the other end, you still need treatment. And maybe not just, you know, a 12-step kind of program. Maybe you really need psychiatric treatment and medication to help you through whatever the problem was that helped lead to your addiction in the first place. D.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first of all, Nic became a different person. The only explanation I ultimately came to is that he was ill. At first I didn't believe that. I thought, you know, he was just this selfish, crazy te"}
{"id": "658781285", "date": "2018-10-19", "guest": "Ttimothee Chalamet", "title": "Father And Son Behind 'Beautiful Boy' Share Their Story Of Addiction And Recovery", "question_index": 23, "text": "You write that young people are more susceptible to addiction, and addiction is especially dangerous for young people. And this all has to do with the development of their brain. The part of the brain known as the prefrontal cortex is still developing when you're young. Talk about the importance of that part of the brain in a young person's development and then in addiction. D.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was this really dangerous idea for so long that all someone had to do was get off drugs. They had to detox. You know, they had to go through cold turkey. And they would wake up in the morning, a"}
{"id": "658781285", "date": "2018-10-19", "guest": "Ttimothee Chalamet", "title": "Father And Son Behind 'Beautiful Boy' Share Their Story Of Addiction And Recovery", "question_index": 24, "text": "A lot of memoirs written by people who had been addicts start with them hitting bottom - you know, the absolutely worst imaginable thing that happened to them because of their addiction. And then they hit bottom, and then they go into rehab, and they seek treatment. And then things start to turn around, and then the book kind of begins. And so many stories - just, like, addict stories that, you know, are told - you know, start, again, with, like, hitting bottom. And I think a lot of people assume that if you love somebody who is addicted to a substance - that until they hit bottom and until they really realize that their life is at stake, that their dignity is at stake, that there's no way they're going to give up, you know, the drug or the alcohol. And you make the point in the book that that's not necessarily true - that if you love somebody who's an addict, you don't need to wait until they hit bottom. You can intervene and perhaps intervene effectively. D.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, kids are the most vulnerable to becoming addicted. You know, it's a really stressful time in their lives. I mean, you know, being an adolescent is really hard. But there also is this underlying "}
{"id": "658781285", "date": "2018-10-19", "guest": "Ttimothee Chalamet", "title": "Father And Son Behind 'Beautiful Boy' Share Their Story Of Addiction And Recovery", "question_index": 25, "text": "But, you know, with addiction - and this is different from cancer - a person has to be willing to change to stop using. And, I mean, you can lock them up in an environment where they can't get drugs - you know, whether that's prison or, you know, put them in rehab, where there's not going to be any drugs. But when they get out, you know, unless there's constant surveillance, they still have to make that decision to not use. Let me give you an example of a story that you've told about your son when he was addicted - that he would call you, you know, from the street and say, you have to pick me up. I think I'm dying. You have to come get me and take me home. And you didn't want to do that because you'd been burned before. You'd take him home, and he would steal from you. He would do things that would be dangerous for your younger children to observe. So you finally said to him, no. I'll pick you up, and I'll take you to rehab. And your son said no, I don't want to go to rehab - doesn't work for me. You need to take me home. And you said, call back when you're ready to go to rehab, and you hung up. So if you had to do that over again, would you think that that was the right way of handling it? D.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If you love someone who's an addict and their use is life-threatening, you don't wait until they hit bottom because that can mean that they're going to die. You have to do everything you can to get th"}
{"id": "658781285", "date": "2018-10-19", "guest": "Ttimothee Chalamet", "title": "Father And Son Behind 'Beautiful Boy' Share Their Story Of Addiction And Recovery", "question_index": 26, "text": "In that story, you basically had two options that I can think of. One is to say, well, if I'm not driving you to rehab, I'm not picking you up at all. And the other is, OK, I'll take you home. You chose the if I'm not driving you to rehab, I'm not taking you home at all. And you think you're lucky that he didn't die as a result and that he chose to go to rehab a few days later. So in retrospect, do you think you'd have - you should have chosen the other option is - which it would have been, I'll take you home? And maybe he wouldn't have gone to rehab. D.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I tried, though, so many times to get him into treatment. And I would do anything it took. I would drag him off the streets. I searched for him. When I could find him, you know, I just did whateve"}
{"id": "658781285", "date": "2018-10-19", "guest": "Ttimothee Chalamet", "title": "Father And Son Behind 'Beautiful Boy' Share Their Story Of Addiction And Recovery", "question_index": 27, "text": "If your child's under 18, you can force them to go into rehab, right? D.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview with David Sheff. His book \"Clean\" is about the medical science of addiction and recovery. His earlier book \"Beautiful Boy,\" about his son Nic's "}
{"id": "658781285", "date": "2018-10-19", "guest": "Ttimothee Chalamet", "title": "Father And Son Behind 'Beautiful Boy' Share Their Story Of Addiction And Recovery", "question_index": 28, "text": "Did you ever do that? D.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In most places you can. It's - yes, you can. It's not easy. In some states, it's really complicated. You have to get judge's orders. You have to essentially commit them. A police officer maybe has to "}
{"id": "658781285", "date": "2018-10-19", "guest": "Ttimothee Chalamet", "title": "Father And Son Behind 'Beautiful Boy' Share Their Story Of Addiction And Recovery", "question_index": 29, "text": "What were the other ways? D.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I never had to resort to any kind of legal means of getting Nic into treatment. But still, I had a lot of leverage. You know, he was living at home. He would be desperate. He would want to come home. "}
{"id": "658781285", "date": "2018-10-19", "guest": "Ttimothee Chalamet", "title": "Father And Son Behind 'Beautiful Boy' Share Their Story Of Addiction And Recovery", "question_index": 30, "text": "So let's talk a little bit about 12-step treatment programs. You have a lot of experience with them because - I think - Nic had been in a 12-step program. You've probably gone to, you know, a 12-step program for parents. D.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, sometimes Nic would just get tired of being out there. And he would be so desperate he would - you know, he just wanted to get off the streets. You know, it wasn't necessarily even life-threaten"}
{"id": "658781285", "date": "2018-10-19", "guest": "Ttimothee Chalamet", "title": "Father And Son Behind 'Beautiful Boy' Share Their Story Of Addiction And Recovery", "question_index": 31, "text": "Yeah? And then you visited them just as research for the book. So you see, you know, positives and negatives with the 12-step program. So I think most people know what the positive parts are. But what are some of the problems you have with 12-step? D.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Al-Anon. Yeah."}
{"id": "658781285", "date": "2018-10-19", "guest": "Ttimothee Chalamet", "title": "Father And Son Behind 'Beautiful Boy' Share Their Story Of Addiction And Recovery", "question_index": 32, "text": "Let's end on a positive note", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The 12 steps are completely a profound, you know, treatment for so many people, but not most people. And that's the problem that I have. It's not with the 12 steps. It's only many, many rehabs are bas"}
{"id": "658781285", "date": "2018-10-19", "guest": "Ttimothee Chalamet", "title": "Father And Son Behind 'Beautiful Boy' Share Their Story Of Addiction And Recovery", "question_index": 33, "text": ". And if it's OK, if it's not prying into your son Nic's privacy, he sounds like he's doing really well now professionally as well as personally. Just give us a little update on his life if that's not prying too much. D.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The 12 steps are completely a profound, you know, treatment for so many people, but not most people. And that's the problem that I have. It's not with the 12 steps. It's only many, many rehabs are bas"}
{"id": "658781285", "date": "2018-10-19", "guest": "Ttimothee Chalamet", "title": "Father And Son Behind 'Beautiful Boy' Share Their Story Of Addiction And Recovery", "question_index": 34, "text": "David Sheff, thank you so much for talking with us, and please send my best regards to your son Nic. I spoke with him once", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's not. I mean, Nic is really - you know, I think he's great. I mean, what can I say? He's an unbelievable person. I mean, yeah, I'm his dad, and so I'm prejudiced. But he's extraordinary. He's just"}
{"id": "658781285", "date": "2018-10-19", "guest": "Ttimothee Chalamet", "title": "Father And Son Behind 'Beautiful Boy' Share Their Story Of Addiction And Recovery", "question_index": 35, "text": "on the show, and I'm so glad he's doing well. So thank you. Thank you very much. D.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's not. I mean, Nic is really - you know, I think he's great. I mean, what can I say? He's an unbelievable person. I mean, yeah, I'm his dad, and so I'm prejudiced. But he's extraordinary. He's just"}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Paul Dano, is probably best known for his performance in \"There Will Be Blood\" as a teenaged evangelical preacher. Imagine being in your early 20s and working on that film with director Paul Thomas Anderson and actor Daniel Day Lewis. Dano was only 12 when he had a part in the Broadway revival of \"Inherit The Wind\" starring George C. Scott. Dano also co-starred in the films \"Little Miss Sunshine,\" \"12 Years A Slave\" and portrayed Brian Wilson in the film \"Love & Mercy.\" Now at the age of 34, he's directed his first film, called \"Wildlife.\" The screenplay, which Dano co-wrote with his partner, Zoe Kazan, is adapted from a Richard Ford novel of the same name. \"Wildlife\" is about a 14-year-old old boy, Joe Brinson, who has recently moved with his parents to a small town in Montana. He hasn't yet made friends, and he's looking to his parents for a sense of home and stability. But his father, played by Jake Gyllenhaal, loses his job and his sense of purpose. The mother, played by Carey Mulligan, takes a part-time job to help make ends meet. Meanwhile, it's wildfire season, and the father decides to join the men fighting the fire, which leaves his wife and son to fend for themselves during the indeterminate period he'll be gone, and that changes everything. Just as fires can get out of control, so can people's lives. Here's the scene in which Joe Brinson comes home from school to find his father breaking the news to his mother that he's leaving them to fight the wildfires.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 1, "text": "Paul Dano, congratulations on making this film, and welcome to FRESH AIR. So this film is adapted from a Richard Ford novel that, like your movie, is called \"Wildlife.\" How did you first find the novel, and why did you fall in love with it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Jeanette Brinson) Don't I? I'm a grown woman, Jerry. Why don't you act like a grown man?"}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 2, "text": "Would you read the first paragraph from the novel, which we happen to have sitting on the table here?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was a fan of Richard Ford's. I had just read a book called \"Rock Springs,\" which is a beautiful collection of short stories, and I went to the bookstore in Brooklyn called BookCourt, which is which "}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 3, "text": "Thank you", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. (Reading) In the fall of 1960, when I was 16 and my father was for a time not working, my mother met a man named Warren Miller and fell in love with him. This was in Great Falls, Mont., at the t"}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. (Reading) In the fall of 1960, when I was 16 and my father was for a time not working, my mother met a man named Warren Miller and fell in love with him. This was in Great Falls, Mont., at the t"}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 5, "text": "I'm a big Richard Ford fan and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, the language is so..."}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yes, I agree. So tell us more about what you related to in the story. There's the writing, which is beautiful...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Beautiful."}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 7, "text": "...But you were adapting the story. So what was it about the story that spoke to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 8, "text": "In the clip that we just heard, the parents are fighting, and one of them says to the teenage boy, what do you think, Joe?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So even about 20 pages into the book, there's a paragraph about a kid watching his mom teach swim class and thinking that everybody around her thinks, oh, there's a woman with a good smile or there's "}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 9, "text": "I'm like, how awkward is that, asking a teenage boy to weigh in on the battle between his parents? Were you in that position?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So even about 20 pages into the book, there's a paragraph about a kid watching his mom teach swim class and thinking that everybody around her thinks, oh, there's a woman with a good smile or there's "}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 10, "text": "Did your parents separate?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think so, and I think that's something I related to in this character. I think somebody else might have wanted to make a film about a kid who rebels - right? - or something from their youth th"}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 11, "text": "You were 14 when your parents separated. The character in \"Wildlife\" is 16 in the novel...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 12, "text": "...But he's 14 in the movie. Did you make him 14 in the movie because that was your age when your parents separated?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 13, "text": "Another kind of theme in the book is that this 14 or 16-year-old boy is getting different narratives from his mother and his father as they're going through this turbulent period of their marriage. And he has to decide who's right, who to believe. And that's really tricky when you love both your parents and they're telling you different stories about what your future is going to be like. Is that something that you relate to also?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I made him 14 because that's when I moved to a new town as the Brinson family does in the film, and that felt like where I was emotionally connected to a time in my life. I wouldn't say that's officia"}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 14, "text": "And sexual...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. And that actually - you've now reminded me of probably my - the most exciting first hit I got on the book was this feeling of the mystery of who our parents are. Do you know when you sudde"}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 15, "text": "...Which is I think also really difficult for the teenager to deal with, especially because she kind of includes him in a seduction that she's doing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 16, "text": "So you directly asked Richard Ford for rights to adapt his novel \"Wildlife\" into a movie, and he wrote back to you and the letter he wrote back is included or at least excerpted in the press kit for your movie. I'd like you to read that letter. It's a great letter.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And I - how I feel about that is this woman has probably been a good mother for 14 years and a good wife. And I think the dad has tried in his way, and I think they've done their best in many way"}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 17, "text": "Thanks for reading that. So was that liberating to read that? Like, the writer of the book was saying, do your thing? I'm OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) I'm grateful to you for your interest in my book, but I should also say this in hopes of actually encouraging you. My book is my book. Your picture, were you to make it, is your picture. You"}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 18, "text": "Were there lines from the book that you wanted to make sure were in the movie? And there's no voiceover. So it - all the lines are dialogue.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I could not have written something better myself that you would want somebody like that to say to you. I was shocked and moved. It is an incredible bit of wisdom and permission. So considering how muc"}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 19, "text": "Interesting because it kind of says that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. So the book is first person and actually looking back on the event - very tempting to use voiceover, especially because the language is so beautiful. We sort of set a challenge for ourse"}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 20, "text": "OK. Do you have a lot more anxiety as a director than you do as an actor?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 21, "text": "Tell me about the difference.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's such a different kind of anxiety."}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 22, "text": "Is one a migraine and one a stomachache", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 23, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 24, "text": "It's your job. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that, for me, acting is just a bit more lonely because you do so much of the work on your own. And then you arrive kind of hopefully full, so to speak. And then you're with your scene partners"}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 25, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Paul Dano, who you probably know as an actor from films like \"There Will Be Blood,\" \"Little Miss Sunshine\" and \"Love And Mercy.\" Now, he's directed his first film. It's an adaptation of the Richard Ford novel \"Wildlife.\" The movie's called \"Wildlife\" too. We'll be back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, honestly, one of the hard things for me was that I didn't have any alone time because I'm quite used to that. Somebody is always asking you a question. Somebody - you have to make a million decis"}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Paul Dano, a great actor whose films include \"There Will Be Blood,\" \"Love And Mercy,\" \"Little Miss Sunshine.\" He's in a new Showtime series called \"Escape at Dannemora.\" And he's directed his first feature film, and it's called \"Wildlife.\" It's adapted from a Richard Ford novel of the same name. Let's talk about your acting. And let's start with \"There Will Be Blood.\" You gave such an amazing performance in this. You're a teen evangelical preacher in a small, poor town in Southern California - turn of the 20th century - during the early days when they're discovering that there's oil there. And there's an oil man played by Daniel Day-Lewis who's a bit of a con man and also a incredible capitalist who comes to town and wants to get as much of the oil there as possible. You want some money from oil. And you and he become antagonists. And in one scene - the scene we're going to hear - he's basically told by one landowner that he'll sign over the oil rights to Daniel Day-Lewis if Daniel Day-Lewis agrees to be baptized by you in your makeshift church. So this is the scene where you're baptizing him. And I should just say, parenthetically, that the Daniel Day-Lewis character - earlier in the film, he's taken in a boy whose father was in - was killed in a mining accident. And then, when the boy goes deaf as a result of another oil accident, Daniel Day-Lewis sends him away to a school. OK. So here's the scene with my guest Paul Dano and Daniel Day-Lewis.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, honestly, one of the hard things for me was that I didn't have any alone time because I'm quite used to that. Somebody is always asking you a question. Somebody - you have to make a million decis"}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 27, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Daniel Plainview) Yes, I do."}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 28, "text": "That's Paul Dano and Daniel Day-Lewis in a scene from the 2007 film \"There Will Be Blood.\" I should mention the slapping sounds that you're hearing at the end of that scene, that's Paul Dano's character, like,", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Daniel Plainview) Yes, I do."}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 29, "text": "slapping the devil out of Daniel Day-Lewis, also getting even with Daniel Day-Lewis, who has beaten him up earlier in the film. That scene, it's almost like this incredible operatic duet. Did you think of it that way when you were making it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Daniel Plainview) Yes, I do."}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 30, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was sort of intense just to hear that. You know, that..."}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 31, "text": "You were initially cast as the preacher's brother.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's been some time for me. I was sort of cast at the last minute in this. And I started about four days after I was cast in this part."}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 32, "text": "And then they moved you to be...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 33, "text": "...The teen preacher. Is that why those two characters became twins? Were they not twins before?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 34, "text": "They were just brothers, but now that you were playing both roles - so they saw something in you where they wanted you to play the bigger part.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, they were just brothers."}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 35, "text": "You suppose so", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I suppose so. But, you know, why...."}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 36, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I suppose so. But, you know, why...."}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 37, "text": "It was your idea to learn your part while sitting in the church.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, sort of why I was going back there is - just listening to that clip, you know, gave me a feeling, which was I just remember the two days before I started spending sunup to sundown in that chur"}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 38, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was just suddenly on location. And I was like, what? OK. Day one is Monday. And OK, I'm just going to go to the church and learn my, you know, scenes. It's funny because that clip, too - quite"}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 39, "text": "My guest is Paul Dano. He co-wrote and directed the new film adaptation of the Richard Ford novel \"Wildlife.\" We'll talk more after a break and hear about what it's like to be beaten up in films, including in \"There Will Be Blood.\" And Kevin Whitehead will review a new reissue of music Nino Rota composed for Federico Fellini movies. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know? And I was like, OK."}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 40, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with actor Paul Dano, who makes his directorial debut with the new film \"Wildlife.\" It's adapted from Richard Ford's novel of the same name. Dano co-wrote the screenplay with his partner Zoe Kazan. He's best known for his roles as a teenager who's decided to stop talking in \"Little Miss Sunshine,\" as a cruel overseer in \"12 Years A Slave\" and as a teenage preacher, a false prophet in \"There Will Be Blood,\" which was directed by Paul Thomas Anderson and also starred Daniel Day-Lewis as a speculator looking for oil who comes into conflict with Dano's character. There were two scenes in \"There Will Be Blood\" where Daniel Day-Lewis' character beats you up. One of them is kind of like a baptism in oil, where he beats you up. And he pushes your head into, like, oil mud. And he beats you up pretty badly. And then, of course - spoiler - at the end of the film, he kind of beats you to death with a bowling pin.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know? And I was like, OK."}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 41, "text": "So you take a lot of abuse. There's actually - you've probably seen this. On YouTube, there's a whole, like, reel of you getting beaten up in different films, including \"12 Years A Slave,\" \"There Will Be Blood\" - forgetting what else was in there. But anyways, you've gotten beaten up a lot", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know? And I was like, OK."}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 42, "text": "in your movies. And in some of those, you scream as you're being beaten up. And you have different kinds. Talk about different kinds of screams...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know? And I was like, OK."}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 43, "text": "...For different circumstances 'cause you have, like, really high-pitched screams and, like, deeper screams and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 44, "text": "...Louder and softer screams.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 45, "text": "Of the throat?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's very funny. It's fun to build a character. And I think that you do ask yourself, where's the energy in this person's body? For example - right? - are their shoulders, you know, a little bit mor"}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 46, "text": "Is one of the questions you ask, does this character stay strong or do they become weak when they're being beaten?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah or the mouth or the - and, I mean, it's really small, subtle, you know, stuff. But you at least ask the questions and maybe try to, you know..."}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 47, "text": "And how does that affect the scream?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. And are they - is there - are they enjoying this? Are they, you know, terrified? What's the..."}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 48, "text": "You were directed at age 22 by one of the greatest directors of our time, Paul Thomas Anderson. Were there things you learned from him about directing, about how to work with actors that you've tried to carry through in the rest of your acting career and now in your first-time directorial effort?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, usually, at that point, you've tried to lay the groundwork so that when the moment comes, it comes the way it's meant to, you know. So I don't know that I would intellectualize, like - but certa"}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 49, "text": "Let's talk about your film, \"Love & Mercy.\" And this is the story of Brian Wilson, most famous for The Beach Boys and, of course, for his solo albums. And in this film, there's two versions of Brian Wilson. There's the version you play when he's younger during the Beach Boys era. And then the version later in life when he's having serious mental health issues. And Brian Wilson in that part is played by John Cusack. So I want to play a scene from \"Love & Mercy.\" You've been in this scene writing \"God Only Knows,\" a great song. And you play it for your father. And your father, who's played by Bill Camp in the movie, is an abusive control freak. He's very authoritarian with his sons and very hypercritical. And nothing's ever good enough for him. And so you're playing the song for him while he's sitting and looking very tense and smoking his pipe. So here's Paul Dano and Bill Camp in a scene from \"Love & Mercy.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Paul, I think, has a lot of love. I think he loves his actors and his crew. He has an incredible eye for detail. I think it's definitely been important for me having - wanting to have been a fil"}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 50, "text": "So that's my guest, Paul Dano, and Bill Camp in a scene from \"Love & Mercy\" with Paul Dano as Brian Wilson and Bill Camp as his father, Murry Wilson. That's a really upsetting scene. I mean, \"God Only Knows\" is such a beautiful song. The fact that his father either can't hear that or doesn't want to hear that and that he's being so mean to such a musical genius is very upsetting. Anyways, you had to sing in a way that approximated, you know, Brian Wilson. And you're at the piano. Are you actually - I know you're doing the singing in that scene. Are you actually playing the chords?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Murry Wilson) Well, I gave it another thought, OK? And if you can't keep your voice down in my house, get out."}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 51, "text": "You used to be in a band called Mook, and you were a guitarist. Did you know how to play piano?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. In that scene, that's just live, you know, playing and singing on camera. That's not done after the fact. You know, that was just in the scene."}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 52, "text": "You met him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I could probably have formed a few chords but not really. And you know, frankly, learning this music for this film, \"Love & Mercy,\" listening to it is probably one of the greatest joys I've ever h"}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 53, "text": "And rejected, totally rejected.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yeah. And when he - when we talked about music, he still felt like a schoolboy about it. You know, he could be quite uncomfortable about most things, but if you were with him and got into music, "}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 54, "text": "The chord changes in \"Love And Mercy\" are so beautiful and so unpredictable. So did you have to learn those chords? Like, did you know how to play those chords, let alone the sequencing of them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah and unseen."}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 55, "text": "Did he teach you the chords?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No, no, no. And I really started from basics, and that was just so beautiful to have the piano opened up to me through Brian because the voicings."}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 56, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not Brian. A guy named Darian, who's in his band..."}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 57, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is actor Paul Dano who is now also director Paul Dano. His directing debut is an adaptation of the Richard Ford novel, \"Wildlife,\" and the movie is also called \"Wildlife.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Helped me out and, you know, just started practicing day by day and same with doing vocal exercises, you know? And that's a really nice routine for somebody preparing for something - let's say, let"}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 58, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is Paul Dano, who starred with Daniel Day-Lewis in \"There Will Be Blood.\" He played Brian Wilson in the film \"Love & Mercy.\" He played a teenage boy who was kind of sullen and has taken a vow of silence in \"Little Miss Sunshine.\" He's in the new Showtime series - he stars in that - \"Escape At Dannemora.\" And he's directed his first film. It's called \"Wildlife,\" and it's adapted from a Richard Ford novel of the same name. So you started acting in community theater when you were how old?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Helped me out and, you know, just started practicing day by day and same with doing vocal exercises, you know? And that's a really nice routine for somebody preparing for something - let's say, let"}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 59, "text": "OK. At what point did you know you wanted to do this professionally?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it started in school before that, and then we moved from Manhattan to Connecticut in third grade and probably shortly after that."}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 60, "text": "Why did you know that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because I started young, I knew I did not want to go to conservatory after high school."}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 61, "text": "What? Like, money, celebrity...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because the young acting world - it can be a little - I think there were things that I was aware of that I felt like, I don't know if that's the healthiest."}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 62, "text": "...Being in a bubble.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 63, "text": "So I was reading an interview with your partner, Zoe Kazan. And congratulations, you both have a little baby now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. Yeah. And I think I always needed the other part of my life, which we - which I don't often talk about because it's not what, really, somebody is interested in, but like friends and music or "}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 64, "text": "And she was comparing some of the gender differences between her world as an actress and your world as an actor. So she said, 9 times out of 10 in a role, she has to cry and that you rarely have to cry and. That once, in an audition, she had to have a gun and be tough. And you've had a lot of auditions that have involved guns or being tough. Are you ever, like, frustrated with the number of movies involving, like, guns and violence and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks."}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 65, "text": "So what does make you squeamish?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah, I am personally - you know, even as a viewer. And I've always myself chosen to look at it like - the why part of it. So you know, like, a film like \"Prisoners\" has violence, right? But I t"}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 66, "text": "So, you know, your partner, Zoe Kazan, just gave birth a couple of months ago. That's messy. Were you squeamish about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, blood, actually. And I think the older I get, the worse it is, actually. It's not like something where you become more - it actually becomes more uneasy for me, especially now being a parent - r"}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 67, "text": "Paul Dano, it's been great to talk with you. Thank you so much. And congratulations on your new film.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I thought I would be, and I wasn't. And I loved it. I thought it was incredible. I mean, Zoe was doing a lot of hard work. And I thought it was absolutely incredible."}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 68, "text": "Paul Dano co-wrote and directed the new film adaptation of the Richard Ford novel \"Wildlife.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "660168891", "date": "2018-10-24", "guest": "Ed Oxenbould", "title": "Paul Dano On 'Wildlife,' And The Different Anxieties Of Acting And Directing", "question_index": 69, "text": "After we take a short break, Kevin Whitehead will review a new reissue of music Nino Rota composed for Federico Fellini movies. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Anthony DeCurtis, is the author of a biography of Lou Reed, which just came out in paperback. DeCurtis is a contributing editor for Rolling Stone, where he's written for more than 35 years. DeCurtis knew Reed and considered him a friend, although not a close one. As part of his research, DeCurtis interviewed many people Reed knew, including his first two wives. Lou Reed co-founded The Velvet Underground, which he played with from 1964 to 1970. The band was initially managed by Andy Warhol and was part of Warhol's scene. While many bands of the time were singing about peace, love and hallucinogenics, Lou Reed was writing songs about heroin, street hustlers and transgressive sexuality. He continued in that direction as a solo artist. But he also wrote songs that had a spiritual quality. DeCurtis says other than Bob Dylan, the Beatles and James Brown, no one has exerted as great an influence on popular music as Reed has. Reed died of liver disease five years ago at the age of 71. DeCurtis says he wouldn't have written this book while Reed was alive. Quote, \"this book does not, at all times, see Lou the way he wanted to see himself. Aspects of his sex life, his drug use and his cruelty that he came to be embarrassed about are discussed here in detail, as are his generosity and his kindness, his talent, his vision and his genius,\" unquote. We recorded the interview last November when the book was first published and started with the song \"Heroin\" from The Velvet Underground's first album.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 1, "text": "That's Lou Reed. And Anthony DeCurtis, welcome to FRESH AIR. And congratulations on your new biography of Lou Reed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I don't know just where I'm going, but I'm going to try for the kingdom if I can 'cause it makes me feel like I'm a man when I put a spike into my vein. And I tell you things aren't quite th"}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 2, "text": "So let's start with that song, which sums up so much about what made Lou Reed different from other music being made at that time. Give us your take on \"Heroin\" and how it fits into not only Lou Reed's career but into the larger music of that time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 3, "text": "But he kind of lived part-time in that underground.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's such a daring statement. You know, essentially, it was recorded in 1965. It came out in 1967. And you know, it was the height of the Summer of Love. There was a sense in which this was just a ver"}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 4, "text": "He used heroin, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He certainly did."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Yeah. And he was the first person to inject John Cale, his band mate in The Velvets, with heroin.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He did use it."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 6, "text": "You know, one of the things that's so fascinating about Lou Reed is that - OK, so this is one of the really early songs that he writes, \"Heroin.\" And at the time, he's working for Pickwick, writing songs to order. He's writing, like, knock-offs of, like, surf songs...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, all of that is true. They - I mean, it never really was his particular drug of choice. I mean, he always preferred amphetamine. He liked speedy drugs, but he did use heroin. And the song does "}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 7, "text": "...And songs about Detroit and California. And a song called \"The Ostrich,\" which was supposed to be, like, a novelty dance song to start a novelty craze that never got started", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yup."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yup."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 9, "text": "And before that, he was discovered at, like, a high school dance that he was playing with, like, an early high school band. And he was brought to Bob Shad, a record producer who is also Judd Apatow's grandfather -", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 10, "text": "late grandfather.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Yeah, yeah. And Bob Shad has him, like, record a few things - like, write and record a few things. And one of the songs - I really want to play this", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I did not realize that."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 12, "text": ". One of the songs is called \"Merry Go Round.\" And so how old was Lou Reed when he records this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I did not realize that."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 13, "text": "Yeah. So the guy who writes, like, \"Heroin\" and writing for - \"Waiting For The Man\" writes this lyric for \"Merry Go Round.\" I walk you home everyday from school, but still you treat me like a fool.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, he began recording, really, while he was in high school. You know, and he, you know, kind of continued to make records after that. But, you know, you could really see the kind of influ"}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 14, "text": "And so...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, he began recording, really, while he was in high school. You know, and he, you know, kind of continued to make records after that. But, you know, you could really see the kind of influ"}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. You see..."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 16, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is a very interesting thing about Lou. I mean, I think there were those - both those parts. I mean, people would ask me - you know, I knew him. And, you know, people would ask, you know, like, so"}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 17, "text": "So let's hear \"Merry Go Round\" 'cause you really hear Lou Reed's voice. But he hasn't quite become the Lou Reed that we know yet. And it's very, very pop. So let's hear him singing about walking her home from school. Here's Lou Reed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Or we'd talk about \"Love Rollercoaster.\" You know, he loved pop music. And that was true at the same time as he also wasn't always doing that by any means. But he was taking pop elements even, you "}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 18, "text": "So that was Lou Reed before The Velvet Underground when - is he still in high school when he records that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I walk you home, yeah, every day from school, but still you treat me like I was a fool. Merry go round, whoa, you got me going upside down. You said you'd never date another boy, but still y"}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 19, "text": "All right. OK. And my guest is Anthony DeCurtis, who has a new biography of Lou Reed called \"Lou Reed: A Life.\" We're going to take a short break, and then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think so, yeah. I think so."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 20, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Anthony DeCurtis, a contributing editor at Rolling Stone magazine and now the author of a new biography of Lou Reed. I want to ask you about a period of Lou Reed's life that a lot of people have spoken about. I think he chose not to speak about it publicly. And I'm talking about the period where he had electroshock therapy, electroconvulsive therapy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think so, yeah. I think so."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 21, "text": "This was when he was in college. And I had always heard that this was because his parents were afraid that he was gay. What did you learn about the electroshock therapy and why he had it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 22, "text": "But you also write that once when Lou Reed came home from college, that he was basically, like, nonfunctional. And his parents were concerned that he was in a terribly deep depression. The doctor said, you know, he might have schizophrenia. Am I getting this right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that Lou was acting out in a variety of ways. While he was in high school, you know, he was certainly using drugs, wild mood swings. You know, he definitely enjoyed getting under, partic"}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 23, "text": "And that that also figured into the shock treatments. And his sister told you, oh, our parents were very liberal. And they weren't homophobic, so it wasn't about their fear of him being gay. But I was thinking that, like, everybody was homophobic then.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 24, "text": "You're mentioning gay bars and him being gay. But he's also with a lot of girls at the time, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's right. And that's the thing. I don't think they were more homophobic than that. You know, they were just kind of a conventional, suburban couple. Lou was bringing into their life everythi"}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 25, "text": "You think he was kind of, like, fluid in his sexuality.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah. That's true. And there are people - I mean, this was a really - I mean, it's a very - it's an issue very much of the moment, interestingly, because I've kind of gone around the block."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 26, "text": "And I don't think everybody had the language for it then.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, one of his girlfriends describes him as inter. And that's a kind of interesting usage, I think. You know, there was part of Lou, I think, that was up for anything. And - but I've had gay"}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 27, "text": "Yeah, go ahead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's right. They didn't. That language didn't exist. I did want..."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 28, "text": "I know. I was so surprised when I read that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did just want to say one thing about his parents because, you know, there really was this sense, you know, after the shock treatments, of Lou's never forgiving them for that. But when Lou left The V"}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 29, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, exactly, you know?"}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 30, "text": "Another thing that really just, like, amazed me reading about this in your book is that after The Velvet Underground split up and he went on his own, he didn't have any money. So he got a job working for his father, typing...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I once said - you know, his first wife was talking about Lou being cheap. And she was saying oh, God, you know, he never wanted to spend money. We were living in all these small places. He would n"}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 31, "text": "...In his father's accounting office.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 32, "text": "I mean, how transgressive is that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, exactly."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 33, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, exactly."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 34, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, totally. You know, and he always - he would say - he goes, you know, well, my mother always said, you know, like, you know, you should have something to fall back on, and kind of typing was th"}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 35, "text": "But they were there for him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Money. And his father would accommodate him."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 36, "text": "Yeah. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, exactly."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 37, "text": "So early in The Velvet Underground period, they team up with Andy Warhol. Like, Andy Warhol...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Somebody told me a story. I wasn't able to confirm this. But that the night Lou quit The Velvet Underground, you know, after his show at Max's Kansas City, that his parents were waiting for him in the"}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 38, "text": "...Brings them under his wing. He wants to have a band to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 39, "text": "...Kind of - yeah, to kind of expand his reach. And what worked and what didn't work about that connection with Warhol? What didn't work for Lou Reed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, precisely."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 40, "text": "After having an affair with her.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, that's a very interesting question because, you know - yeah. Andy wanted a band in the same way - you know, it was just like, oh, you know, movies are getting popular. You know, I'm ju"}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 41, "text": "My guest is Anthony DeCurtis, the author of the new book \"Lou Reed: A Life.\" It's just been published in paperback. After a break, we'll talk about Reed's relationship with women, including his wives and his trans partner Rachel. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "exactly. It was, you know, part of those times. And that was - you know, so that was one of the issues with Warhol. Warhol was great because, you know, back then - you know, I was a kid in New York ar"}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 42, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with Anthony DeCurtis, a contributing editor for Rolling Stone and author of the book \"Lou Reed: A Life.\" We recorded our interview last November when the book was first published. It's just come out in paperback. You write about the women in Lou Reed's life, including his first serious girlfriend, Shelley Albin, his three wives, Bettye Kronstad, Sylvia Morales, Laurie Anderson, his trans girlfriend Rachel. Let's start with his first girlfriend and his first two wives. Did you interview all of them, all three of them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Shiny, shiny, shiny boots of leather, whiplash girl child in the dark, clubs and bells. Your servant, don\u2019t forsake him. Strike, dear mistress, and cure his heart. Downy sins..."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 43, "text": "What were some of the themes that you got from them - like, common themes from all three of those relationships - about how they were treated by Lou Reed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 44, "text": "But Bettye Kronstad, his first wife, told you that he physically abused her which is...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think one thing that ran through those relationships - you know, Lou's early relationships with women - was his desire to subsume them, you know, to make them part of his world. You know, needy is a"}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 45, "text": "...Which is why she finally left him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He did."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 46, "text": "Did you hear that from any of the other women he was with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 47, "text": "And he's also, like, you know, drinking and using drugs and who knows how that's affecting him, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I did not. And - although, you know, there were other instances of other women who were less casually involved with him. You know, it was, you know, a part of who he was. I mean, that kind of ange"}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 48, "text": "I mean, that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Certainly out of, you know..."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 49, "text": "...That's not helpful if you have a bad temper and if you have a tendency to be out of control", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Very much out of control."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 50, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Very much out of control."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 51, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Certainly not. Yeah."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 52, "text": "One of his partners for about three years was trans. She was - was she a hustler?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Certainly not. And it was - you know, that was very much part of his life, you know, in those days."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 53, "text": "And so they were together for three years. And he dedicated his album \"Coney Island Baby\" to her. Her name was Rachel. What can you tell us about Rachel and her relationship with Lou Reed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. Yep, she was."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 54, "text": "It's a complicated story, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's a, you know - that, you know..."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 55, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's a, you know - that, you know..."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 56, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is an extremely complicated subject. And I'll try to distill it."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 57, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Anthony DeCurtis, the author of \"Lou Reed: A Life.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it - you know, he met Rachel in an after-hours bar and just really fell in love with her. And this was one of the revelations of the book to me, you know. I knew about Rachel. I mean, he wro"}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 58, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Anthony DeCurtis, who's written a new book about Lou Reed. It's a new biography called \"Lou Reed: A Life.\" Lou Reed's second solo album after the Velvet Underground broke up, \"Transformer,\" was produced by David Bowie. And, you know, Bowie's, of course, famous for all of his, you know, personas and for his sexual fluidity. What impact did working with David Bowie have on Lou Reed in terms of his self-image and his persona?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it - you know, he met Rachel in an after-hours bar and just really fell in love with her. And this was one of the revelations of the book to me, you know. I knew about Rachel. I mean, he wro"}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 59, "text": "Well, why don't we hear \"Walk On The Wild Side\" from that album? And this was his only real, like, radio hit. And it was a big hit. And the song - the lyrics are inspired by some of the trans women he knew from Andy Warhol's Factory. So let's hear it and then we'll talk about it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, Lou had complicated feelings about that. You know, at the time, it was a big opportunity. I mean, David Bowie was kind of the, you know, the coming thing. And, you know, Bowie, you kno"}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 60, "text": "That's Lou Reed, \"Walk On The Wild Side,\" from his album \"Transformer,\" which was produced with David Bowie. So that was actually a hit for Lou Reed. But it sounds...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Holly came from Miami, F-L-A, hitchhiked away across the USA, plucked her eyebrows on the way, shaved her legs and then he was a she. She says, hey, babe, take a walk on the wild side. Said,"}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 61, "text": "...It sounds from your book like he was - he wanted a hit so badly. Finally, he has one.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 62, "text": "And he sounds like he was actually kind of ambivalent about it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 63, "text": "I know, exactly right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that, you know, there were, you know, he was pulled back and forth by, you know, his desire. You know, look. Lou Reed grew up in an era where, you know, there was no - I mean, The Velvet Undergr"}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 64, "text": "You didn't exist.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, that..."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 65, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It wasn't more complicated than that."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 66, "text": "So it sounds like he wanted to have his music reach people and be loved and be popular. But at the same time, he distrusted that and wanted to be, like, outside the mainstream and outside of that kind of acceptance.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, precisely. And even if you did have hits, you know, you got a year or two and then you went home. But, you know, for Lou - so Lou, I mean, learned that ethic kind of in his DNA. But at the same "}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 67, "text": "So his album, \"Street Hassle,\" you say that that album basically ended the period of his life where he described himself as gay. What changed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Honestly, I mean, I think that was an element of it."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 68, "text": "No. So I want to play a different excerpt of \"Street Hassle,\" not the \"Slipaway\" part that you referred to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one thing was the end of his relationship with Rachel, which is documented quite movingly in the song \"Street Hassle,\" a part called \"Slip Away\" where, you know, he says, you know, she took the "}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 69, "text": "...But the part that's about somebody overdosing. And the person narrating the story is, like, so cold, just so indifferent about it. It's almost upsetting to listen to.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 70, "text": "But it's great music. And it's great writing. So this is the middle part", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 71, "text": "of \"Street Hassle.\" Do you want to say anything about this part?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 72, "text": "Let's hear it. This is Lou Reed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Lou was drawing on the story of a guy who used to be around the Factory. He was found dead in the street as - and thought to be kind of - that he was hit by a car. I mean, that was the official "}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 73, "text": "That's Lou Reed from \"Street Hassle.\" And my guest Anthony DeCurtis has written a new biography of Lou Reed. We're going to take a short break. And then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You know, I'm glad that we met, man. It really was nice talking. And I really wish that there was a little more time to speak. But you know it could be a hassle trying to explain myself to a"}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 74, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Anthony DeCurtis, a contributing editor at Rolling Stone magazine and now the author of a new biography of Lou Reed. In the last years of his life, a fairly big chapter of the end of his life, Lou Reed became involved in Tibetan Buddhism, meditation, a form of tai chi. Did this coincide with him giving up drugs and alcohol?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You know, I'm glad that we met, man. It really was nice talking. And I really wish that there was a little more time to speak. But you know it could be a hassle trying to explain myself to a"}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 75, "text": "You know, for all of us who love the work of artists who aren't necessarily, like, the nicest people in the world...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, there was - those were elements. And these kind of - this spiritual quest on Lou's part was something that really went back to The Velvet Underground. You know, Lou told, you know, one"}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 76, "text": "...There's always some reconciliation you have to do between your feelings about how the person has behaved in the real world and the importance of their art and the value of their art. So is that something you've had to come to some kind of reconciliation of with Lou Reed as a person and as an artist?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 77, "text": "You're talking about the sexual harassment of women.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course. You know, I think that - you know, I think this is something - you know, I think this is an issue very much in the culture right now, you know?"}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 78, "text": "Absolutely, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, totally. Like, you know, so..."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 79, "text": "Well, I've been choosing all the music. Is there a song you'd like to end with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, you're reading about some director who's, you know, doing just completely abominable things to these, you know, young girls who are just trying to be actresses. And you think, all right. So,"}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 80, "text": "Yeah. That's an impossible choice", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 81, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 82, "text": "Anthony DeCurtis, a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There are so many. You know, I mean, let's - you know, it's a pretty intense interview. Let's end with \"Rock & Roll.\" You know, I mean, I feel like that is Lou's statement about the ability of thi"}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 83, "text": "Anthony DeCurtis is a contributing editor at Rolling Stone and the author of the book \"Lou Reed: A Life,\" which just came out in paperback. Our interview was recorded last November when the book was first published.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Jenny said when she was just 5 years old, there was nothing happening at all. Every time she puts on the radio, there was nothing going down at all, not at all. Then one fine morning, she pu"}
{"id": "660906918", "date": "2018-10-26", "guest": "The Velvet Underground", "title": "Biographer Sought To Write The Kind Of Book Lou Reed 'Deserved'", "question_index": 84, "text": "Monday on FRESH AIR, my guest will be Jonah Hill, who first became known for his roles in films directed and/or produced by Judd Apatow, like \"Superbad\" and \"Knocked Up.\" He co-starred in \"Moneyball\" and \"The Wolf of Wall Street\" and is in the new Netflix series \"Maniac.\" He wrote and directed the new movie \"Mid90s\" about a group of skateboarders in the mid-1990s. That's the period when a young Jonah Hill was part of a group of skateboarders. I hope you'll join us. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Jenny said when she was just 5 years old, there was nothing happening at all. Every time she puts on the radio, there was nothing going down at all, not at all. Then one fine morning, she pu"}
{"id": "662482211", "date": "2018-10-31", "guest": "Kaplan", "title": "Is The Supreme Court The 'Most Dangerous Branch' Of Government?", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The Supreme Court has changed during the Trump administration. The court now has two Trump appointees - Neil Gorsuch, who replaced the late Antonin Scalia after Mitch McConnell blocked President Obama from choosing Scalia's successor, and Brett Kavanaugh, who replaced Anthony Kennedy after Kennedy retired. Now the chief justice, John Roberts, is also considered the most likely swing vote in a court that has 5 conservative justices. My guest, David A. Kaplan, says the court has reached the point where justices are often seen as political proxies of the Republican or Democratic Party. His new book is about how the court became so politicized and so powerful. It also includes profiles of several of the justices. The book is based in part on Kaplan's interviews with several of the current justices, as well as past justices, 65 law clerks who worked at the Supreme Court and congressional and White House officials dating back to the Reagan administration. A lot of the interviews were done on the condition that he not name the source. Kaplan is also a former legal affairs editor at Newsweek, where he covered the Supreme Court for a decade. His new book is called \"The Most Dangerous Branch: Inside The Supreme Court's Assault On The Constitution.\" David A. Kaplan, welcome to FRESH AIR. So one of the main themes of your book is that the court has become so politicized, you can predict how each justice will vote. It's become politics by another name. Elaborate on that idea for us. DAVID A.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "662482211", "date": "2018-10-31", "guest": "Kaplan", "title": "Is The Supreme Court The 'Most Dangerous Branch' Of Government?", "question_index": 1, "text": "In what sense do you think that the court is overstepping?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, on those hot-button issues like abortion and same-sex marriage and voting rights and gun control and campaign finance, you pretty much know ahead of time where they're going to come out. So the "}
{"id": "662482211", "date": "2018-10-31", "guest": "Kaplan", "title": "Is The Supreme Court The 'Most Dangerous Branch' Of Government?", "question_index": 2, "text": "So now that we have a new court, in the sense that we have two Trump appointees on the court, do you think that this court has a certain agenda to it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The court's docket is almost entirely discretionary. The justices decide which cases they want to hear. And too often, they choose to hear cases involving issues that I argue would better be left to t"}
{"id": "662482211", "date": "2018-10-31", "guest": "Kaplan", "title": "Is The Supreme Court The 'Most Dangerous Branch' Of Government?", "question_index": 3, "text": "What are the issues?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think this court, like past courts, will have an activist agenda. That doesn't mean conservative or liberal. As such, it means interventionists. But yes, I think this court, with five conservatives "}
{"id": "662482211", "date": "2018-10-31", "guest": "Kaplan", "title": "Is The Supreme Court The 'Most Dangerous Branch' Of Government?", "question_index": 4, "text": "So when Steve Bannon was in the Trump administration, he talked about the goal of deconstructing the administrative state. And you're saying the Trump administration still has that goal. And in the book, you said that that was a decisive factor in choosing Neil Gorsuch for the bench. What's his record on deconstructing the administrative state?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Federal power. I think there is a vast federal administrative state that passes all kinds of regulations, whether it's on securities law, safety in the workplace, clean air, clean water. And the power"}
{"id": "662482211", "date": "2018-10-31", "guest": "Kaplan", "title": "Is The Supreme Court The 'Most Dangerous Branch' Of Government?", "question_index": 5, "text": "Are there other priorities you think this new court will have?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He has written extensively as a lower court judge and in speeches and law review articles about doing precisely that. And it is one of his opinions when he was on the lower federal appeals court that "}
{"id": "662482211", "date": "2018-10-31", "guest": "Kaplan", "title": "Is The Supreme Court The 'Most Dangerous Branch' Of Government?", "question_index": 6, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is David A. Kaplan. He's the author of the new book \"The Most Dangerous Branch: Inside The Supreme Court's Assault On The Constitution.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it is possible that you'll see this court hearken back to the days of the 1930s and 1920s, when the court would strike down what we now regard as garden variety uncontroversial regulation of t"}
{"id": "662482211", "date": "2018-10-31", "guest": "Kaplan", "title": "Is The Supreme Court The 'Most Dangerous Branch' Of Government?", "question_index": 7, "text": "This is FRESH AIR and if you're just joining us my guest is David Kaplan. He's the author of the new book \"The Most Dangerous Branch: Inside The Supreme Court's Assault On The Constitution.\" He's also former legal affairs editor at Newsweek. So I have a question, and I suspect you won't be able to answer, but I'd love to know the answer to this. I ***", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it is possible that you'll see this court hearken back to the days of the 1930s and 1920s, when the court would strike down what we now regard as garden variety uncontroversial regulation of t"}
{"id": "662482211", "date": "2018-10-31", "guest": "Kaplan", "title": "Is The Supreme Court The 'Most Dangerous Branch' Of Government?", "question_index": 8, "text": "the former legal affairs editor at Newsweek. So I have a question, and I suspect you won't be able to answer, but I'd love to know the answer to this. I really want to know what the justices think of how Brett Kavanaugh handled himself at his confirmation hearings when he was questioned about Christine Blasey Ford's allegations of sexual assault and whether those justices who were already seated on the court thought he had a judicial temperament. Do you have anything that you can tell us about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it is possible that you'll see this court hearken back to the days of the 1930s and 1920s, when the court would strike down what we now regard as garden variety uncontroversial regulation of t"}
{"id": "662482211", "date": "2018-10-31", "guest": "Kaplan", "title": "Is The Supreme Court The 'Most Dangerous Branch' Of Government?", "question_index": 9, "text": "So I think there are a lot of concerns now that we have two justices in the Supreme Court who have been accused of sexual misconduct, Clarence Thomas of sexual harassment and Brett Kavanaugh of sexual assault. And these men might have decisive votes in matters pertaining to gender equality, sexual assault or sexual harassment issues. And it questions the credibility of the court because they might be very biased in their opinions.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've stayed in touch with some of the justices I've interviewed. I've stayed in touch with them since the book has come out. I guess I can offer two thoughts. One, leaving aside the specifics of Dr. F"}
{"id": "662482211", "date": "2018-10-31", "guest": "Kaplan", "title": "Is The Supreme Court The 'Most Dangerous Branch' Of Government?", "question_index": 10, "text": "What kind of cases do you think that might influence?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Whether they're biased or, as you know, have the appearance of bias is a real problem for the court. And there is no real solution. I don't, for example, think you will see recusals in such areas of t"}
{"id": "662482211", "date": "2018-10-31", "guest": "Kaplan", "title": "Is The Supreme Court The 'Most Dangerous Branch' Of Government?", "question_index": 11, "text": "I don't know if this was after last February or not, but last February, there was a New York magazine cover story headlined, \"The Case for Impeaching Clarence Thomas\" with stories of other women besides Anita Hill who had stories of sexual harassment regarding Clarence Thomas. So it's a story that keeps, you know, coming back to life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you could imagine campaign finance appeal coming up. They're going to be more of those, depending on who brings it. Now, are there Republican interests or they're democratic interests. I think e"}
{"id": "662482211", "date": "2018-10-31", "guest": "Kaplan", "title": "Is The Supreme Court The 'Most Dangerous Branch' Of Government?", "question_index": 12, "text": "So in terms of how politicized the court has become, President Trump supported Brett Kavanaugh through the hearings and Trump insulted Christine Blasey Ford, who made the allegations of sexual assault. Are you concerned, are there concerns out there that Kavanaugh will feel beholden to Trump and therefore come to conclusions in ways that support the Trump administration when the Trump administration is involved in a case?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It does. And some folks could argue that maybe it was sui generis, it was unique and it was dated. But the Kavanaugh's stuff brought that all back to light. And as you point out, now we've got two jus"}
{"id": "662482211", "date": "2018-10-31", "guest": "Kaplan", "title": "Is The Supreme Court The 'Most Dangerous Branch' Of Government?", "question_index": 13, "text": "I hadn't known of Brett Kavanaugh before he was nominated to be a Supreme Court justice. But you write that some people, some insiders, were surprised that he wasn't on Trump's first list of potential nominees, the one that ended with the Gorsuch nomination. And you say some movement conservatives called Kavanaugh a prevaricating milquetoast who lacked guts. And again, this was before his nomination. This was during the Gorsuch nomination. Why was he called a prevaricating milquetoast who lacked guts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "**** the great aspects of the system, which has lots of flaws, is that once you're on the bench and have life tenure, you really don't have to look down Pennsylvania Avenue with any degree of loyalty "}
{"id": "662482211", "date": "2018-10-31", "guest": "Kaplan", "title": "Is The Supreme Court The 'Most Dangerous Branch' Of Government?", "question_index": 14, "text": "My guest is David A. Kaplan, former legal affairs editor at Newsweek and author of the new book about the Supreme Court called \"The Most Dangerous Branch: Inside The Supreme Court's Assault On The Constitution.\" We'll talk more after a break. And Ken Tucker will review singer-songwriter Kurt Vile's new album. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, they would say he was such because of an opinion he wrote in one of the Obamacare cases, where he didn't reach out and strike down the statute, which is what the movement conservatives wanted. Ins"}
{"id": "662482211", "date": "2018-10-31", "guest": "Kaplan", "title": "Is The Supreme Court The 'Most Dangerous Branch' Of Government?", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with David A. Kaplan, a former legal affairs editor at Newsweek who covered the Supreme Court for a decade. He's the author of the new book \"The Most Dangerous Branch: Inside The Supreme Court's Assault On The Constitution.\" We're talking about how the Supreme Court became so politicized, how it became so powerful and how it's changed during the Trump administration with the additions of Neil Gorsuch and Brett Kavanaugh. Some people who follow the court have suggested that Kavanaugh might have been selected to be the nominee because, after having worked on the Clinton impeachment, he subsequently said that he thinks a sitting president shouldn't be subjected to criminal charges because it takes up too much time and takes time away from other crises that the president has to help handle and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, they would say he was such because of an opinion he wrote in one of the Obamacare cases, where he didn't reach out and strike down the statute, which is what the movement conservatives wanted. Ins"}
{"id": "662482211", "date": "2018-10-31", "guest": "Kaplan", "title": "Is The Supreme Court The 'Most Dangerous Branch' Of Government?", "question_index": 16, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've read that brief."}
{"id": "662482211", "date": "2018-10-31", "guest": "Kaplan", "title": "Is The Supreme Court The 'Most Dangerous Branch' Of Government?", "question_index": 17, "text": "Why not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't buy it."}
{"id": "662482211", "date": "2018-10-31", "guest": "Kaplan", "title": "Is The Supreme Court The 'Most Dangerous Branch' Of Government?", "question_index": 18, "text": "Here's another question that you also might not be able to answer. I would love to know how the justices - what they think of what President Trump has said about judges. He's insulted judges. He used the term so-called judge to describe one judge. During the campaign, he called Chief Justice Roberts an absolute disaster. He said, Roberts gave us Obamacare. It might as well be called Robertscare (ph). He did not say that in a positive way. Another time, he claimed that Roberts voted to uphold Obamacare, the Affordable Care Act, because he wanted to be popular inside the Beltway. You write that Neil Gorsuch nearly withdrew his nomination after Trump insulted him. And this was after Senator Richard Blumenthal had had his meeting with nominee Neil Gorsuch, then said that Gorsuch had called Trump's attacks on the federal judiciary disheartening and demoralizing. What, if anything, can you tell us about how the justices feel about what the president has said about judges?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "to make that list. And I think when you take that basic credential and then factor in McGahn's close relationship with him, that would - made him the odds-on favorite."}
{"id": "662482211", "date": "2018-10-31", "guest": "Kaplan", "title": "Is The Supreme Court The 'Most Dangerous Branch' Of Government?", "question_index": 19, "text": "So this is the era of the John Roberts court in two ways. One is that he's the chief justice, but also he's now considered to be the swing vote. So he is really the most decisive factor in the court now, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, every single one of them that I talk to, to the extent I could get them talking a little or use some body language, are all appalled by him. How can one not be appalled by him generally? In term"}
{"id": "662482211", "date": "2018-10-31", "guest": "Kaplan", "title": "Is The Supreme Court The 'Most Dangerous Branch' Of Government?", "question_index": 20, "text": "Has he demonstrated it in any other moment?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct. He will be the first chief justice in 80-plus years who is in the middle, such as it is, of the court. It will truly be his court. And he will have the potential for, quote, unquote, \"greatne"}
{"id": "662482211", "date": "2018-10-31", "guest": "Kaplan", "title": "Is The Supreme Court The 'Most Dangerous Branch' Of Government?", "question_index": 21, "text": "John Roberts wrote the majority decision that gutted the Voting Rights Act, and that kind of decided in favor of voting restrictions as opposed to voting rights. So future voting restrictions versus voting rights decisions come to the Supreme Court, do you think the court will continue to vote on the side of restrictions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "not really. It may be on the margins of some rulings. But the two important projects for this chief justice have been deregulating, campaign finance, Citizens United and all that, and removing racial "}
{"id": "662482211", "date": "2018-10-31", "guest": "Kaplan", "title": "Is The Supreme Court The 'Most Dangerous Branch' Of Government?", "question_index": 22, "text": "So John Roberts was the swing vote on upholding the Affordable Care Act. And you write that he had two drafts of his decision. What are the differences between those two drafts, and why did he have two of them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah. I - they gutted much of the Voting Rights Act of 1965. But I think that's, as I argue in the book, that's one area where the court's adventurism or arrogance is pronounced. The Voting Righ"}
{"id": "662482211", "date": "2018-10-31", "guest": "Kaplan", "title": "Is The Supreme Court The 'Most Dangerous Branch' Of Government?", "question_index": 23, "text": "If you're just joining us my guest is David A. Kaplan. He's the author of the new book \"The Most Dangerous Branch: Inside The Supreme Court's Assault On The Constitution.\" He's also the former legal affairs editor of Newsweek. We're going to take a short break, then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "*** matter, to strike down the Affordable Care Act in the middle of a presidential election year would put the Supreme Court smack in the vortex of that presidential election and that would be bad for"}
{"id": "662482211", "date": "2018-10-31", "guest": "Kaplan", "title": "Is The Supreme Court The 'Most Dangerous Branch' Of Government?", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is David A. Kaplan, author of the new book \"The Most Dangerous Branch: Inside The Supreme Court's Assault On The Constitution.\" He's also former legal affairs editor at Newsweek. So we have two Trump appointees on the Supreme Court now, Neil Gorsuch and Brett Kavanaugh. Justice Scalia, who was replaced by Gorsuch, was an originalist, which means interpreting the Constitution as it was intended to be interpreted by the founders when it was written, not considering it a document that has to be updated for the times that we live in. And Thomas considers himself an originalist or a textualist. I say that not really understanding the difference between those two terms. But is Gorsuch or Kavanaugh an originalist or a textualist? Or do they not subscribe to that point of view?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "*** matter, to strike down the Affordable Care Act in the middle of a presidential election year would put the Supreme Court smack in the vortex of that presidential election and that would be bad for"}
{"id": "662482211", "date": "2018-10-31", "guest": "Kaplan", "title": "Is The Supreme Court The 'Most Dangerous Branch' Of Government?", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well, something you say about originalism is that because you're trying to literally follow what the Founding Fathers meant when they wrote the Constitution at a time when there was slavery, at a time when women did not have equal rights - you say that originalism favors a status quo fixed in the 18th century. And it tends to favor the haves of that time and to disfavor all others, such as minorities and other unpopular litigants - and maybe we can add women to that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think they would both call themselves card-carrying originalists and, to some extent, textualists. Having said that, in my book, originalism is bunk because even originalists only use originalism wh"}
{"id": "662482211", "date": "2018-10-31", "guest": "Kaplan", "title": "Is The Supreme Court The 'Most Dangerous Branch' Of Government?", "question_index": 26, "text": "Do you think that justices, in general, have become more politicized in recent years than they've been in the past?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All true, but of course, the Constitution is not written as a set of regulations. Some constitutions in the world are written that way. When you use phrases like equal protection of the laws or due pr"}
{"id": "662482211", "date": "2018-10-31", "guest": "Kaplan", "title": "Is The Supreme Court The 'Most Dangerous Branch' Of Government?", "question_index": 27, "text": "OK. Why do you think that is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "662482211", "date": "2018-10-31", "guest": "Kaplan", "title": "Is The Supreme Court The 'Most Dangerous Branch' Of Government?", "question_index": 28, "text": "Do you think the politicization of Supreme Court nominees includes how Mitch McConnell blocked Merrick Garland from even coming to the Judiciary Committee after he was nominated?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think, in part, because the selection process that we use now and the better - if more cynical - process that White Houses use to pick nominees results in such candidates. You know, Brett Kavanaugh "}
{"id": "662482211", "date": "2018-10-31", "guest": "Kaplan", "title": "Is The Supreme Court The 'Most Dangerous Branch' Of Government?", "question_index": 29, "text": "Being a Supreme Court justice is a lifetime appointment. You leave when you say you want to leave. And how old is Ruth Bader Ginsburg now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. And listen. If the Democrats get control of Congress this time around or in two years, in 2020, I think you'll - if they can get their act together - 'cause they're not really good at play"}
{"id": "662482211", "date": "2018-10-31", "guest": "Kaplan", "title": "Is The Supreme Court The 'Most Dangerous Branch' Of Government?", "question_index": 30, "text": "And how old was John Paul Stevens when he left?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Eighty-five."}
{"id": "662482211", "date": "2018-10-31", "guest": "Kaplan", "title": "Is The Supreme Court The 'Most Dangerous Branch' Of Government?", "question_index": 31, "text": "Yeah. So it's - you can stay for a really long time. **", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ninety."}
{"id": "662482211", "date": "2018-10-31", "guest": "Kaplan", "title": "Is The Supreme Court The 'Most Dangerous Branch' Of Government?", "question_index": 32, "text": "**** And how old was John Paul Stevens when he left?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ninety."}
{"id": "662482211", "date": "2018-10-31", "guest": "Kaplan", "title": "Is The Supreme Court The 'Most Dangerous Branch' Of Government?", "question_index": 33, "text": "Yeah, so I - you can say for a really long time. So a lot of people are...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "90."}
{"id": "662482211", "date": "2018-10-31", "guest": "Kaplan", "title": "Is The Supreme Court The 'Most Dangerous Branch' Of Government?", "question_index": 34, "text": "It's a good gig", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Pretty good - it's a pretty good gig."}
{"id": "662482211", "date": "2018-10-31", "guest": "Kaplan", "title": "Is The Supreme Court The 'Most Dangerous Branch' Of Government?", "question_index": 35, "text": "yeah. So the lifetime-appointment issue has been challenged by many people because now that people are living to such older ages than they used to when the Supreme Court was first created, you know, and when the Constitution was first written. The president's power to appoint a Supreme Court justice - that's become a much bigger power than it ever was because in part of the extension of the lifespan of Americans. So, you know, some people, including you, have proposed changing the lifetime nature of the appointment. Why do you think we should consider changing it? And what are some of the suggestions you have?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Pretty good - it's a pretty good gig."}
{"id": "662482211", "date": "2018-10-31", "guest": "Kaplan", "title": "Is The Supreme Court The 'Most Dangerous Branch' Of Government?", "question_index": 36, "text": "Well, David Kaplan, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it would lower the stakes of any particular nomination. If, for example, there was a single term of 18 years, as many others have suggested and which I endorse, I think that would lower the temp"}
{"id": "662482211", "date": "2018-10-31", "guest": "Kaplan", "title": "Is The Supreme Court The 'Most Dangerous Branch' Of Government?", "question_index": 37, "text": "David A. Kaplan is the author of the new book \"The Most Dangerous Branch: Inside The Supreme Courts Assault On The Constitution.\" After we take a short break, Ken Tucker will review a new album by singer-songwriter Kurt Vile. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a pleasure. Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 0, "text": "That's an excerpt of \"Homecoming King.\" Hasan Minhaj, welcome to FRESH AIR. I love this new show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...We got customers. We've got to clean this up - zen. Brown Mr. Miyagi just, like, not saying a word. I run up to him. I'm like, Dad, why aren't you saying something? I'm not asking you. Say somethin"}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Can you talk a little bit more about the difference in your point of view about what it means to be an immigrant and a Muslim in America now and what the difference generationally between your father as an immigrant and you as somebody who was born here?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me, Terry."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 2, "text": "Partition is when Pakistan divided from India.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. The biggest difference between - and I feel like a lot of third-culture kids feel this. And I identify as a third-culture kid, meaning that, you know, my family is from Aligarh, India. They immi"}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 3, "text": "And there was a lot - on both sides of this new border - a lot of violence and a lot of death.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 4, "text": "So there are a lot of cultural differences between you and your father.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, and it was one of the largest mass exoduses of people from India to Pakistan. My dad's family stayed in Aligarh in India, which was a huge decision because you're dividing a country based on reli"}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 5, "text": "And let's start with the fact that your father hadn't even met your mother when he decided to marry her. Can you describe the circumstances of their marriage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 6, "text": "OK. So he marries your mother without meeting her.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My dad was doing grad school, and he was in Aligarh. You know, he was of age to get married. And he had heard about this girl named Seema, my mom. And I talk about it in the show. The hype around Seem"}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 7, "text": "You on the other hand, you were born in 1985. So you grew up with, like, hip-hop.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 8, "text": "You know, you grew up with television and movies but the kind of television and movies where sex is a constant presence.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 9, "text": "And sex before marriage is a constant presence.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, right, right."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 10, "text": "And so again, like, the difference between, like, your father's cultural values growing up in India and your own growing up here are so much at odds with each other.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Was it hard for you to - and obviously, like, you wanted to fit in when you were in high school. Was it hard for you to find a place where you could survive at home and be your father's son but also be the person you wanted to be at school and with your friends?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. His rules with me growing up were very simple - no fun, no friends, no girlfriends."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 13, "text": "So was comedy like a secret weapon for you in school, like a way for you to be yourself and stand out? And what did your father think of comedy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", like, I'm the LeBron James to his franchise. I have to deliver the dream. And, you know, I am aware of that. I go back to Aligarh, and I go back to Delhi often where my cousins live now. And I'm ver"}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Close. Oh, so close", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In high school, I didn't know what comedy was, but I was involved in speech and debate and public speaking and impromptu speaking..."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 15, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In high school, I didn't know what comedy was, but I was involved in speech and debate and public speaking and impromptu speaking..."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 16, "text": "Debate club, stand-up, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. But..."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 17, "text": "They are close?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But - no, actually believe it or not..."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They are very similar. When I got to college, that's when I was first exposed to stand-up comedy. Again, I had never - I didn't know what it was. My - you know, my parents didn't let us have cable tel"}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 19, "text": "I guess that was good practice for \"The Daily Show.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like, get to the episode. Then when I get to college, I get exposed to Pryor, \"Bring The Pain,\" Chris - all this, like, really edgy subversive stuff, all this stuff that I could never say in my house "}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 20, "text": "Let's talk about your mother.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's return to Terry's interview from last year with comedian Hasan Minhaj. His new Netflix series \"Patriot Act\" premiered last week, and new episodes appear each Sunday."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 21, "text": "You know, we talked about how your father decided to marry your mother through kind of hearing about her through word of mouth and seeing a picture. So they got married. They moved to the States, but she went right back to India soon after because she was studying medicine and wanted to complete med school there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 22, "text": "So basically for the first eight years of your life, you were brought up by your father with occasional visits from your mother.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 23, "text": "So how much did you know about her for the first eight years of your life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 24, "text": "So when your mother returned for good to your home and the family was reunited...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I definitely knew about her. And as I was growing up, you know, she was doing - she got an opportunity to do residency in rotations in New York and then in Stockton. So over the course of my"}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 25, "text": "...The family suddenly got much larger because", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 26, "text": "your mother brought with her a 5-year-old girl who you were told was your sister, the sister you'd never met because your mother and father conceived your sister in India during one of his visits...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 27, "text": "...To India to visit your mother. So you were kind of stunned when you found out that you had this sister that nobody ever told you about. Why didn't they tell you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, right."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 28, "text": "So I'm going to stop you here because...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My younger sister Ayesha was born in the States. And then at - two months after her birth, she went to go live with my grandparents and be raised there. So I didn't officially, officially, you know, g"}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 29, "text": "We have a clip from your show \"Homecoming King\" in which you talk about how you felt about your sister as this kind of, like, intruder in your life...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 30, "text": "...When she came to live with you. So let's hear that clip, and this is Hasan Minhaj from his Netflix comedy special \"Homecoming King.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 31, "text": "So you describe in your show that you took all the anger channeled at you, all the anger channeled at you because you're brown and Muslim...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "While you guys decided to get your Angelina Jolie on and bring over this fob in a frock - that's on you. That's not on me."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 32, "text": "...And you channeled it at your new sister. How did you realize that you were doing that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 33, "text": "Did your father change? Did he become something of a different person when your mother moved back?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't realize how messed up it was until there was this incident where, you know - I wanted to be treated special in a certain way. And then when my sister got there, my dad took a lot of that guil"}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 34, "text": "So you tell a story in your show about how you were about to perform at The Comedy Store in New York when your sister calls you that your father is about to have a quintuple bypass after having...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli in for Terry Gross back with more of Terry's 2017 interview with Hasan Minhaj. The former \"Daily Show\" correspondent, who hosted last year's White House Correspo"}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Did he have a heart attack before that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 36, "text": "So you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A heart attack. Yeah, he had a heart attack."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 37, "text": "Oh, in LA. OK, so you were closer to his home than I thought.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was The Comedy Store in LA."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 38, "text": "Right, 'cause your family was living in Davis, Calif.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm closer to home, yeah. I'm living in Los Angeles at the time. I get a call from my sister. Hasan, come home. Dad had a heart attack. You need to come home now."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 39, "text": "So you - first you do your show at The Comedy Store. Then you go to be with your father. So what was the calculus you did in your mind to decide whether you should cancel your show and just leave or do the show first and then go? That strikes me as a really hard choice that you made.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 40, "text": "One I'm not sure you were happy with.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 41, "text": "Don't you think in a way sometimes that the tighter a parent's grip is, the more, like, you have to just, like, double down when you're breaking away and, like, demand, like, no, I'm drawing the line, you know? And you sometimes do, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I'm not. I'm still not happy with it. Sorry, it's just like - it was a very ugly thing. You know, I love my dad a lot, you know? And it's something I'm not very proud of, but I was very angry at"}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 42, "text": "No, I know, and you sometimes do things that you're not proud of as a result. But I do think that that is a phenomenon. Do you know what I mean? That when a parent holds on tight...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, but just in the face of a heart attack, I mean..."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 43, "text": "...It's so hard to kind of break away and become the person you want to be that you sometimes do some really...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 44, "text": "...Like, stupid, even dangerous things. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And it was just..."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 45, "text": "But you talk about when you did come home and you saw your father...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it was just a kind of ugly thing, you know, because I knew better. But yeah, in that moment, it's just - I was feeling that grip for so many years that you finally sort of feel free. And yeah, y"}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 46, "text": "...And you said goodbye to him before the surgery, before the bypass. And you thought, if he dies, like, if something happens to him, I will never have really gotten to know him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 47, "text": "And you talk about how you decided then that you'd better really get to know him as a person better.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 48, "text": "And it sounds like you did. What did you do to be able to do that? Because as somebody who you've described as keeping secrets and not being forthcoming with you, how did you change the terms of your relationship?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 49, "text": "Like what?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I started telling him stories about my life, and he started telling me stories about his life because we just were together all day for weeks. So I was able to start to piecemeal things about his life"}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 50, "text": "You talk about how you auditioned for \"The Daily Show\" and how you got the job and everything. And then you say to Jon Stewart, Jon, my dad knows you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 51, "text": "And, like, I love that because your father probably had no frame of reference for any of the comedy you were doing or for any of your comedy...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 52, "text": "Nothing, but I guess he knew \"The Daily Show.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nothing, yeah."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 53, "text": "So let's change directions a little bit here.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. \"The Daily Show\" oddly became the current equivalent of journalism. You - he actually would see clips of it, and he held Jon in the same esteem that he would hold, you know, Dan Rather. So to hi"}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 54, "text": "On \"The Daily Show,\" you did a piece at the Republican National Convention...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 55, "text": "...About the proposed Muslim ban and the proposed deportation of Muslims, things Donald Trump was talking about. So you interviewed people at the convention. Were these delegates that you were talking to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 56, "text": "OK. So this was a field piece for \"The Daily Show,\" and I want to play some of the conversations you were having with delegates. So here's Hasan Minhaj.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. These were delegates."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 57, "text": "OK. That's Hasan Minhaj doing a piece at the Republican National Convention for \"The Daily Show.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's what I'm scared about."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 58, "text": "After the election, you did a piece on \"The Daily Show\"...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 59, "text": "...And it ended with you talking about how your mother at that moment was in India visiting family. And she called you and said to you, do you think it's safe for me to come home? You know, do you think I'll be able to come home back to America? And you said...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 60, "text": "...I don't know.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 61, "text": "So it sounds like it was a horrible, frightening moment for you. What was the outcome of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Sigh) Yeah."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 62, "text": "But you managed to get her home.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We got her home ASAP because I didn't know. We were doing a live show that night. It was our election night special. We had a script written that was - you know, it followed what we thought was going "}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 63, "text": "So I want to ask you about the White House Correspondents' dinner, which is an annual dinner. And it's in part a roast of the president and of the media in which a guest comic, like you, is invited to be the host and the roaster. And then usually...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We did. We did. We managed to get her home before the Muslim ban happened, too. I didn't want to risk anything. Like, we got her home - she was supposed to be there for several months, and we just got"}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 64, "text": "...In the past few presidencies, you know, the president gets up and does comedy, too. And that usually turns into a roast as well. But this year, you know, President Trump decided not to go. The day of the White House Correspondents' dinner, he chose to do a rally in Pennsylvania.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 65, "text": "And so you were in the position of making jokes about a president who decided not to attend. You say in your monologue at the White House Correspondents' dinner that you were told not to roast the president in absentia. Is that true?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 66, "text": "And that's Hasan Minhaj at the White House Correspondents' dinner. When you hear groans like we did after some of your jokes, do you take that as a good thing", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, a lot of people told me, Hasan, if you go after the administration, it would be petty, unfair and childish. In other words, presidential, so here we go. I get why Donald Trump didn't want to"}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 67, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, a lot of people told me, Hasan, if you go after the administration, it would be petty, unfair and childish. In other words, presidential, so here we go. I get why Donald Trump didn't want to"}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 68, "text": "That is a tough room.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "After the fact, yes. When you're in the room, no. And..."}
{"id": "663389616", "date": "2018-11-02", "guest": "Hasan Minhaj", "title": "Comic Hasan Minhaj On Roasting Trump And Growing Up A 'Third Culture Kid'", "question_index": 69, "text": "Hasan Minhaj, it's been really great to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God. It's the toughest show I've ever done in my life. It's really, really hard. You have been invited to their dinner. It's a dinner for journalists honoring journalists. And then you come in "}
{"id": "664347954", "date": "2018-11-05", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Why is religion still around in the 21st century? Why look to ancient texts, beliefs and practices in an age when scientists have made so many breakthroughs about the nature and origin of the universe? These are questions religion scholar Elaine Pagels has spent a lot of time thinking about. The questions became deeply personal during a long period of grieving. Her life was shattered by the death of her son Mark at the age of 6 1/2 following a long illness. In 1988, just over a year after what she thought was the worst loss she could imagine, her husband, Heinz Pagels, a theoretical physicist and the executive director of the New York Academy of Sciences, died in a mountain climbing accident. Her new book, \"Why Religion?: A Personal Story\" combines memoir and biblical scholarship to reflect on how she found faith and lost it but turned to ancient Jewish and Christian texts and the meditation she was taught by Trappist monks to comprehend her feelings of guilt, anger and unceasing grief and to try to survive long enough to move beyond it. Pagels is a professor of religion at Princeton University and is best known for her writings on the gnostic gospels, the Christian texts that were omitted from the canon because they were considered heretical. Elaine Pagels, welcome to FRESH AIR. I think your book will especially resonate with anyone who's lost a loved one, which is most people. But at this time, I think it's also especially relevant because American Jews were just slaughtered at their synagogue. African-Americans in 2015 slaughtered at their church. Children have been massacred in their schools, along with some of their teachers. And I think as a country, we're looking right now for a sense of meaning in this personal and collective suffering that we're going through and for a sense of comprehension about what is going on. And since your book is, in part, about the search for meaning when you're suffering, what have you been thinking about in terms of the collective grief that we're going through as a country right now?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "664347954", "date": "2018-11-05", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 1, "text": "So your book is, in part, like we said, about the search for meaning when you're suffering. And as you point out, you're a historian of religion. You look at how cultures have dealt with things like suffering and loss. But could you turn to a specific religion for the things you needed when you lost your son and then your husband?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All of us have been feeling the tremendous vulnerability of living in a country in which atrocities happen, hatreds have been ripped open, people have been violated and killed and harmed in ways that "}
{"id": "664347954", "date": "2018-11-05", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 2, "text": "You write, many of us have left religious institutions behind and prefer to identify as spiritual, not religious. You say, I've done both, had faith and lost it, joined groups and left them. To my own surprise, I went back, wanting to understand what happened and to explore the stories, poetry, music and art that make up religious traditions. You grew up in a secular family, and you write religion actually made your father angry. Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "At the time of mourning, I couldn't look to anything very much that was a tradition like that. They seemed quite remote. What I could turn to were friends and music and nature - and eventually look at"}
{"id": "664347954", "date": "2018-11-05", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 3, "text": "Did you grow up a skeptic about religion?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it made him angry because he'd been raised by fiercely Presbyterian parents who apparently talked a great deal about hell and damnation, and he wanted to get out of that as soon as he could. So w"}
{"id": "664347954", "date": "2018-11-05", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 4, "text": "Well, you were born again at the age of 15 after some friends convinced you - you were living in Palo Alto, and some friends convinced you to go to San Francisco with them to hear Billy Graham as part of his crusade for Christ. What year do you think that was?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't grow up a skeptic. The family was culturally Protestant. So sometimes, my mother took us to a Methodist Church, which seemed to me well-meaning and, basically, fairly boring - that particular"}
{"id": "664347954", "date": "2018-11-05", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 5, "text": "You joined the other side.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was marvelous. It was at the end of the '50s, I think. I was a teenager, and I didn't know what I was getting into. I just thought it might be interesting. And I found it enormously powerful. And"}
{"id": "664347954", "date": "2018-11-05", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 6, "text": "What did he say that struck you like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, born again - I mean, that was probably their worst nightmare - evangelical Christianity. What I realized is that there's a great deal of power in that kind of conviction that Billy Graham expres"}
{"id": "664347954", "date": "2018-11-05", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 7, "text": "And were there spiritual things that he said that spoke to you, as well?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first of all, he said that what he preached was going to be - sound very strange to intellectuals and academics. And that's the world I grew up in because my father was in that world. And it rea"}
{"id": "664347954", "date": "2018-11-05", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 8, "text": "So, you know, it's interesting that death tested your faith pretty soon. You know, you were looking to art and music and poetry for a sense of larger meaning, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. He also appealed completely to somebody who just turned 15. He said, now you can have a new life. You can be born again. You can break out of the confines of the world you live in - for me, that "}
{"id": "664347954", "date": "2018-11-05", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 9, "text": "And a good friend of yours named Paul was a painter, and he taught you about painting, and you were very close. And then he was killed in a car crash. He was a passenger...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "664347954", "date": "2018-11-05", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 10, "text": "...In the car. And that tested your faith because of things that your fellow Christian friends said to you. What were some of those things?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "664347954", "date": "2018-11-05", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 11, "text": "Did you want to find another church after that, or did you just give up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it wasn't even they tested my faith. It - whatever that meant. I went back to my Evangelical friends. My friend Paul who was killed was 16 in high school. And when I went back to the evangelical"}
{"id": "664347954", "date": "2018-11-05", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 12, "text": "So a little detour here because this is the part of your story that intersects with Jerry Garcia. And I thought, what? Elaine Pagels knew Jerry Garcia before he was in The Grateful Dead? That just kind of shocked me. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". No, because I felt that they were all selling different brands of a certain product which could get caught in particular shapes and that they wanted to sort of force people to think a certain way. A"}
{"id": "664347954", "date": "2018-11-05", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 13, "text": "...Was he in that car accident?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "664347954", "date": "2018-11-05", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 14, "text": "You speculate in the book that The Grateful Dead was named in part because he survived this car crash. And, you know, Paul did not. Do you have any evidence that that really was the source of the name of the band?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. He had been in Palo Alto, playing music, hanging out at various places - Ken Kesey's house up in Los Trancos Woods and in town. And he was older than the rest of us. But those of us in high schoo"}
{"id": "664347954", "date": "2018-11-05", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 15, "text": "OK. Let's take a break here. And then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Elaine Pagels. Her new book is called \"Why Religion?: A Personal Story.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I did speculate that. It seemed obvious to me. And then later, I read something about it. I never - I didn't see him after that, I mean, after he formed the group. That was years later. But I saw"}
{"id": "664347954", "date": "2018-11-05", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is religion scholar and professor at Princeton University Elaine Pagels. Her new book is called \"Why Religion?: A Personal Story.\" So a question that you've always had - and this question kind of resounds throughout your book - is, why does religion continue to exist? With all we know about science now, why does religion exist? And what do we want from it? It's not a question that you can answer in the course of an interview. But along those same lines, you know, you're a historian of religion. So whether you practice a specific religion or not, you are immersed in the text of Judaism, Christianity. Now you're teaching Buddhism, as well.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I did speculate that. It seemed obvious to me. And then later, I read something about it. I never - I didn't see him after that, I mean, after he formed the group. That was years later. But I saw"}
{"id": "664347954", "date": "2018-11-05", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 17, "text": "Co-teaching it. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm co-teaching..."}
{"id": "664347954", "date": "2018-11-05", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 18, "text": "You're...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "664347954", "date": "2018-11-05", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 19, "text": "Yeah. Your late husband, Heinz Pagels, was a theoretical physicist and studied chaos theory. Can you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wouldn't teach it alone."}
{"id": "664347954", "date": "2018-11-05", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 20, "text": "...Talk about some of the similarities and differences between how you approached similar questions about the workings of the world and finding meaning in life? - him, from his point of view as a theoretical physicist studying chaos theory and you, from your point of view studying the great religious texts or at least...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "664347954", "date": "2018-11-05", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 21, "text": "...Some of the great religious texts.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's..."}
{"id": "664347954", "date": "2018-11-05", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 22, "text": "When you got to Harvard as a graduate student, you found that your professors had facsimiles of the gnostic gospels. So, rather than me explaining what those gospels are, give us a brief explanation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The question I started asking - after I'd left that church for years, I thought there's something powerful there that - what was it? Was it about Christianity? Was it about religion? What was it? A pa"}
{"id": "664347954", "date": "2018-11-05", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 23, "text": "And give us an example of something that you found in these gnostic texts that reoriented your sense of religion or gave you something to hold onto in terms of finding or creating meaning.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My professors had access to 51 ancient texts that we'd never seen before. Actually, they're Jewish. They're Christian. Some are Egyptian and Greek. They're all sacred texts. Many of them claimed to be"}
{"id": "664347954", "date": "2018-11-05", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 24, "text": "I want to get back to your personal story. You and your husband had a baby after trying to conceive and then fertility treatment. So you gave birth to a son, but he was born with a serious heart problem that would require surgery after he reached the age of 1 and was strong enough to endure the surgery. The surgery seemed to go OK, but you later discovered that he had another fatal problem, pulmonary hypertension. You were told that that was fatal, that it would eventually, sooner or later, lead to an early death. Your son died when he was 6 1/2. So for 6 1/2 years, you loved your son knowing that he wouldn't live long. And instead of planning for his future - when you looked into the future, you saw his death. And when he died, you felt guilty, even though it sounds like you did everything to give him the maximum amount of love and care. Why do you think you felt guilty?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I first read some of these texts, the gospel of Thomas, for example, which claims to be secret teachings of Jesus, I was stunned and delighted to read things like, Jesus says if you bring forth w"}
{"id": "664347954", "date": "2018-11-05", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 25, "text": "My guest is Elaine Pagels, a professor of religion at Princeton University and author of the new book \"Why Religion? A Personal Story.\" We'll talk more after a break, and Lloyd Schwartz will review two art exhibitions, one called \"Miraculous Encounters.\" I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a good question because parents who are given a very difficult diagnosis about a child will do anything. And also physicians will do anything. They go to extreme lengths to deal with trying to "}
{"id": "664347954", "date": "2018-11-05", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross back with Elaine Pagels, a professor of religion at Princeton University and author of the new book \"Why Religion? A Personal Story.\" It's about the death of her son Mark at the age of 6 and the death of her husband Heinz about a year later. To comprehend and survive the magnitude of her grief, she meditated in the style she was taught by Trappist monks and turned to the ancient Hebrew and Christian texts she studies, including the gnostic gospels, the texts considered too heretical for inclusion in the Christian canon. One of her previous books was a bestseller devoted to the gnostic gospels. When we left off, we were talking about the guilt she felt during her son's illness and after his death. We blame ourselves when we're suffering. Suffering feels like punishment, like we're being punished for something. Did you go through that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a good question because parents who are given a very difficult diagnosis about a child will do anything. And also physicians will do anything. They go to extreme lengths to deal with trying to "}
{"id": "664347954", "date": "2018-11-05", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 27, "text": "After your son died, some people said to you, your faith must have sustained you. What was your reaction when people said that to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", humans are guilty. If we weren't guilty, we wouldn't die. Now, that's I think scientifically ridiculous, but psychologically, it's rather powerful. And he said, there's another response that this ma"}
{"id": "664347954", "date": "2018-11-05", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 28, "text": "In the story of Jesus, you know, the story is that God sacrificed the life of his son. So put that in your words.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When people said that, I thought, I don't know what you're talking about. I've never felt further than anything they were calling faith then at a time of intense grief. That felt extremely remote to m"}
{"id": "664347954", "date": "2018-11-05", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 29, "text": "When you wanted that connection after your son died and then also after your husband died, did you seek that fellowship in church, or did you - just to get outside of church with friends, with people who you were close to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I remember after our son died, I went to the Church of the Heavenly Rest in New York to talk to people there about the service that we would have. And I heard somebody preparing for Easter - it "}
{"id": "664347954", "date": "2018-11-05", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 30, "text": "Oh, I'm so sorry. You were close to him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I sought it in any way possible. The monks at Snowmass monastery - it's a Trappist monastery. Father Thomas Keating, who died this week, was there."}
{"id": "664347954", "date": "2018-11-05", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 31, "text": "Did you have a sense that, like, after you lost your son when he was 6 1/2 after he died from an illness that you would be kind of immune because, like, you were given, like, the horror that you had to suffer through, and now you could, like, move on and face the future with a constant sense of grief but still - did you have the sense of, like, you were done, you had been afflicted and lightning wasn't going to strike twice? Because it did strike twice. Like, your husband died in...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes. Thomas was there. And Father Joseph died last week, too. He was the abbot. Those monks are Trappists. They don't do doctrine and dogma. I don't like doctrine and dogma, as you can tell. They"}
{"id": "664347954", "date": "2018-11-05", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 32, "text": "...In a mountain climbing accident just slightly over a year after your son died.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "664347954", "date": "2018-11-05", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 33, "text": "On the first anniversary of your husband's death, you went to Colorado, where he was killed in a mountain climbing accident and where you used to summer, and you meditated with the Trappist monks who you'd befriended there. And you say you used to have a tape loop in your mind of your husband falling from the cliff toward the rocks below. And that's where the tape would stop and then start over again. So you had this constant image of him falling toward the rocks, but that's as far as the image went.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. After our son died, we felt that the worst thing we could imagine had happened. It was - the sword had fallen. Nothing worse could happen now. And so we went on with the two children we ha"}
{"id": "664347954", "date": "2018-11-05", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 34, "text": "But when you were meditating with the Trappist monks, that image in your mind continued, and you actually saw in your mind your husband hitting the rocks and a river of blood flowing. What do you think it was about meditating with the monks that furthered that image? And what was it like to live with that image as opposed to having it ending before the moment of impact?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "664347954", "date": "2018-11-05", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 35, "text": "So once you had that kind of image completed with the moment of impact and the blood, did the tape loop stop?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a good question. That tape loop began as soon as I heard of the accident. It seemed to go - it seemed to flip through my imagination every few seconds, and then every five seconds and maybe 10 "}
{"id": "664347954", "date": "2018-11-05", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 36, "text": "My guest is Elaine Pagels, author of the new book \"Why Religion? A Personal Story.\" She also wrote the bestseller \"The Gnostic Gospels.\" We'll be back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's an interesting question, Terry. I hadn't thought of it. It certainly was never as obsessive as it was before. I don't go through that tape loop now."}
{"id": "664347954", "date": "2018-11-05", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 37, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Elaine Pagels, a professor of religion at Princeton and author of the new book \"Why Religion? A Personal Story.\" It's about the death of her 6-year-old son, which was followed a year later by the death of her husband, and how she turned to the ancient texts she studies and to the meditation she learned from Trappist monks to help survive her grief. So you've spoken of meditation, of prayer. Where are you now in terms of your religious life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's an interesting question, Terry. I hadn't thought of it. It certainly was never as obsessive as it was before. I don't go through that tape loop now."}
{"id": "664347954", "date": "2018-11-05", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 38, "text": "So you find the stories powerful and meaningful, but you don't believe in God per se. Is that a good description?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I love my work because it allows me to explore the religious life of countless people in countless ages, in different traditions. I find that there are important elements of my experience that resonat"}
{"id": "664347954", "date": "2018-11-05", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 39, "text": "So when you describe your version of religion as a practice, are there things - are there rituals or ceremonies or prayers from whatever religion that is a part of your practice, or do you see, like, scholarship as being rituals or ceremonies or prayers from whatever religion that is a part of your practice, or do you see, like, scholarship as being the practice - like, understanding and making connections as being the practice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't - people ask about believing in God. You know, Terry, I think that belief is overrated. Talking about religions as if they were about belief takes an image that's basically forged in Christian"}
{"id": "664347954", "date": "2018-11-05", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 40, "text": "You end your book with a Jewish prayer. Blessed art thou, Lord God of the universe, that you have brought us alive to see this day. What does that mean to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I love scholarship and research. It's a wonderful part of my life. I go to an Episcopal church often. I love the music. I - the person who's the priest there is a man of spiritual depth, which I dee"}
{"id": "664347954", "date": "2018-11-05", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 41, "text": "Well, Elaine Pagels, I want to thank you so much for talking with us and for reflecting so much about your life, your grief, the role of religion in your life as a scholar and just as a person. And thank you for writing your book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I wanted to find an alternative to that, to find a way to live with hope and joy and courage. And that prayer speaks to coming out of that kind of isolation and fear. It speaks about gratitude for h"}
{"id": "664347954", "date": "2018-11-05", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 42, "text": "Elaine Pagels is a professor of religion at Princeton University and author of the new book \"Why Religion? A Personal Story.\" After we take a short break, \"Miraculous Encounters.\" That's the name of one of two art exhibits Lloyd Schwartz will review. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you. I really loved talking with you about it."}
{"id": "664695634", "date": "2018-11-06", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Ignited A 'Struggle For America's Soul'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Today's elections seem like a defining event because our nation is so divided. As Americans vote and we await the outcome, we're going to talk about what led to the greatest division in our country's history - slavery. Slavery divided America even at the time of its founding, when slavery was the bedrock of the economy in the South and was headed toward extinction in the North. The obligation to return fugitive slaves was written into the Constitution. How to deal with escaped slaves was one of the issues that led to the Civil War. My guest Andrew Delbanco is the author of the new book \"The War Before The War: Fugitive Slaves And The Struggle For America's Soul From The Revolution To The Civil War.\" Delbanco is the Alexander Hamilton professor of American studies at Columbia University. Andrew Delbanco, welcome to FRESH AIR. So slavery is not mentioned in the Constitution by name, but it's referred to twice, first in Article 4, Section 2, Clause 3. Tell us what that clause is about.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "664695634", "date": "2018-11-06", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Ignited A 'Struggle For America's Soul'", "question_index": 1, "text": "It's really interesting, though, that the word slave is not mentioned. It's like, no person held to service or labor in one state. Well, it's referring to indentured servants and to slaves. And it sounds like a contractual agreement - no person held a service or labor. They're talking about slavery in this. Why don't they come out and say slavery?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it's a clause in the Constitution that makes it clear that if a slave or, indeed, an indentured servant flees from the service or labor that person owes to his, quote, unquote, \"owner\" - flees to a"}
{"id": "664695634", "date": "2018-11-06", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Ignited A 'Struggle For America's Soul'", "question_index": 2, "text": "And the word enters into the language just a few years later in 1793 in a new law signed by President George Washington. What was that law?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Well, that's a question that has engaged Americans for centuries, in fact. Abraham Lincoln believed that it was because - he described slavery as a cancer that would eventually be cut out and t"}
{"id": "664695634", "date": "2018-11-06", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Ignited A 'Struggle For America's Soul'", "question_index": 3, "text": "So again, getting back to the Constitution, the word slave was not mentioned in the clause that basically said that runaway slaves had to be returned. But there's another clause, the three-fifths clause as it's known, that's also in the Constitution. And that also applies to slavery.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Well, it became very clear very quickly that this so-called fugitive slave clause was unenforceable. For one thing, it never said who was in charge of enforcement. Was it a local matter? If a s"}
{"id": "664695634", "date": "2018-11-06", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Ignited A 'Struggle For America's Soul'", "question_index": 4, "text": "And for people not familiar with that clause, please describe it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "664695634", "date": "2018-11-06", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Ignited A 'Struggle For America's Soul'", "question_index": 5, "text": "So you quote Lincoln, of course, in the Gettysburg Address, 1863, referring to a nation conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. You say that even Lincoln realized that that was not strictly true. And five years earlier, he was more candid. What did he say in 1858?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it states that for purposes of representation - that is, apportionment of representatives in Congress - and that is in the lower house of Congress, the House of Representatives that we're all th"}
{"id": "664695634", "date": "2018-11-06", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Ignited A 'Struggle For America's Soul'", "question_index": 6, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk more about your book, which is called, \"The War Before The War: Fugitive Slaves And The Struggle For America's Soul From The Revolution To The Civil War.\" My guest is Andrew Delbanco, the author of that book. He's also a professor of American studies at Columbia University. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Lincoln was a great man and, I think, a man with a very strong moral center. But he was also a politician. And when he was speaking at Gettysburg, he wanted to articulate what he thought was the"}
{"id": "664695634", "date": "2018-11-06", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Ignited A 'Struggle For America's Soul'", "question_index": 7, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And on this day when we go out and vote and when this country seems so divided, we're looking at one of the great historical divisions in our country, the division over slavery. My guest, Andrew Delbanco, is the author of the new book, \"The War Before The War: Fugitive Slaves And The Struggle For America's Soul From The Revolution To The Civil War.\" He's also a professor of American studies at Columbia University. How many of the Founding Fathers - which Founding Fathers actually owned slaves themselves?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Lincoln was a great man and, I think, a man with a very strong moral center. But he was also a politician. And when he was speaking at Gettysburg, he wanted to articulate what he thought was the"}
{"id": "664695634", "date": "2018-11-06", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Ignited A 'Struggle For America's Soul'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Thomas Jefferson himself had owned slaves. And you reprint an ad that he'd put in a newspaper offering a reward for one of his slaves, one of his runaway slaves. So if he had this ideal, how did he justify having slaves?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, there were 55 signers to the Constitution. And right now I can't give you the number, but something like a half or two-thirds were slave owners at one time or another in their lives. We want"}
{"id": "664695634", "date": "2018-11-06", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Ignited A 'Struggle For America's Soul'", "question_index": 9, "text": "And, of course, his relationship with Sally Hemings, one of his slaves, who he apparently had a relationship with and children with, as well.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this is a very deep and difficult question. And it's not as if the scholars will ever agree about it. I mean, you can find in Jefferson the most soaring, beautiful language about the dignity of "}
{"id": "664695634", "date": "2018-11-06", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Ignited A 'Struggle For America's Soul'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Before we really leave the subject of the Constitution, I'm just wondering how you deal with the fact that our liberty is based on the Constitution. It's considered one of the greatest documents in human history. At the same time, it's clearly a flawed document because it allows for slavery in three separate causes. And in that sense, it's a very compromised document. It insists on the equality of men. It leaves out women. It allows slavery. It certainly, you know, eliminates the recognition of slaves as actual people. How do you deal with the imperfections and contradictions of the Constitution while still believing in its beauty and its importance and its insistence on equality?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That seems to be the case. The DNA evidence suggests that. Did he think of her as a piece of property to be exploited for pleasure, or did he love her and think of her as a human being to whom he owed"}
{"id": "664695634", "date": "2018-11-06", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Ignited A 'Struggle For America's Soul'", "question_index": 11, "text": "So I just misquoted the Constitution, I guess, as many of us do", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one way to answer that question is to give you Lincoln's answer, which was that the fountainhead of everything about America was not, in his mind, in the Constitution, though he had great revere"}
{"id": "664695634", "date": "2018-11-06", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Ignited A 'Struggle For America's Soul'", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one way to answer that question is to give you Lincoln's answer, which was that the fountainhead of everything about America was not, in his mind, in the Constitution, though he had great revere"}
{"id": "664695634", "date": "2018-11-06", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Ignited A 'Struggle For America's Soul'", "question_index": 13, "text": "That's the Declaration of Independence.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You sort - I mean..."}
{"id": "664695634", "date": "2018-11-06", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Ignited A 'Struggle For America's Soul'", "question_index": 14, "text": "So we were talking about the clause in the Constitution that says that - you know, without using the word slave, it says that any person basically who's a runaway slave or an indentured servant needs to be returned. That law didn't have enough teeth. So a federal law was passed giving that some more teeth. And then in reaction to that, a series of personal liberty laws were passed in the North. What were those laws? What were the goals of those laws?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, you could make the case that those principles are in the Constitution, too, but they're suppressed and implicit, whereas in the Declaration they're right out there. And so, you know, I think t"}
{"id": "664695634", "date": "2018-11-06", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Ignited A 'Struggle For America's Soul'", "question_index": 15, "text": "My guest is Andrew Delbanco, author of the new book \"The War Before The War: Fugitive Slaves And The Struggle For America's Soul From The Revolution To The Civil War.\" We'll talk more after a break. Then Justin Chang will review the new film \"Burning,\" which is adapted from a short story by Haruki Murakami. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the Northern states recognized that giving sort of free reign to slave catchers who came up from the South and simply seized a person off the street was a problematic situation - not only for pe"}
{"id": "664695634", "date": "2018-11-06", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Ignited A 'Struggle For America's Soul'", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. On this Election Day in our divided country, we're talking about the most divisive issue in American history - slavery. My guest Andrew Delbanco is the author of the new book \"The War Before The War: Fugitive Slaves And The Struggle For America's Soul From The Revolution To The Civil War.\" It's about how fugitive slave laws, which enabled slave owners or their proxies to capture slaves who had escaped to the North and return them to captivity, helped lead to the Civil War. When we left off, we were talking about the personal liberty laws that were passed by several Northern states in the 1830s and '40s to counteract fugitive slave laws and protect slaves who had escaped to the North. Pennsylvania had the strictest personal liberty law. And that was challenged in the Supreme Court in a decision called Prigg v. Pennsylvania. And Pennsylvania's law was overturned on what grounds?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the Northern states recognized that giving sort of free reign to slave catchers who came up from the South and simply seized a person off the street was a problematic situation - not only for pe"}
{"id": "664695634", "date": "2018-11-06", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Ignited A 'Struggle For America's Soul'", "question_index": 17, "text": "He was the chief justice, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Justice Story said that..."}
{"id": "664695634", "date": "2018-11-06", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Ignited A 'Struggle For America's Soul'", "question_index": 18, "text": "So it divided the country even more.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was - yes, of the Supreme Court in 1842. His ruling essentially said that any state law that interferes with the principle of the fugitive slave clause of the Constitution was unconstitutional - th"}
{"id": "664695634", "date": "2018-11-06", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Ignited A 'Struggle For America's Soul'", "question_index": 19, "text": "And that's the Fugitive Slave Act.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's my impression, that, you know, the authors of the Constitution were right to realize that stitching together these two countries, as it were - one based on slavery and one increasingly based on"}
{"id": "664695634", "date": "2018-11-06", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Ignited A 'Struggle For America's Soul'", "question_index": 20, "text": "So what did that act say?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850."}
{"id": "664695634", "date": "2018-11-06", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Ignited A 'Struggle For America's Soul'", "question_index": 21, "text": "How so?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it said a lot of things. It said anyone who interfered with the capture of a slave was guilty of a federal crime. It said that citizens in the North were obliged to assist in the capture of fugi"}
{"id": "664695634", "date": "2018-11-06", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Ignited A 'Struggle For America's Soul'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Sugar that was harvested by slaves.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, where to begin? I mean, you know, we don't think very hard about where the products come from that we consume every day. New Englanders didn't think about where the sugar came from that they put"}
{"id": "664695634", "date": "2018-11-06", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Ignited A 'Struggle For America's Soul'", "question_index": 23, "text": "You know, so we were talking about the Fugitive Slave Act in terms of how it further divided the country and helped lead to the Civil War. But let's talk about what it meant, what the Fugitive Slave Act meant, for slaves and for people living in the North who were either emancipated slaves or who never were slaves - were born in freedom and expected and wanted to stay living a life of a free person. How were their lives affected by the Fugitive Slave Act, those people in the North?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Ralph Waldo Emerson said at one point, no one tastes blood in the treats - blood in the treats. New Englanders didn't think about the fact that they might have had personal investments in the S"}
{"id": "664695634", "date": "2018-11-06", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Ignited A 'Struggle For America's Soul'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Because unless they showed papers saying that they were emancipated, they could be taken to the South and given to anyone who claimed that they had previously owned this person.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, again, I am wary of facile analogies, but, you know, we think of the Jews of Europe from one minute to the next. One minute they were assimilated citizens in Germany or France, and then virtuall"}
{"id": "664695634", "date": "2018-11-06", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Ignited A 'Struggle For America's Soul'", "question_index": 25, "text": "My guest is Andrew Delbanco, author of \"The War Before The War: Fugitive Slaves And The Struggle For America's Soul From The Revolution To The Civil War.\" We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. I mean, the Southerners would have said, no, no, there were constraints around that, and we're only coming after the people that we have legitimate property rights toward. But that's not how it"}
{"id": "664695634", "date": "2018-11-06", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Ignited A 'Struggle For America's Soul'", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with historian Andrew Delbanco, author of \"The War Before The War: Fugitive Slaves And The Struggle For America's Soul From The Revolution To The Civil War.\" When we left off, we were talking about the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850, which allowed slave catchers to abduct freed or escaped slaves and return them to the South. So Congress repealed the fugitive slave law in June of 1864. Congress, by that time, was the North. There wasn't a Southern vote to object to the repeal. And then the war ended about a year later. So let's jump ahead. I mean, you're a professor of American studies, so you don't just study the Civil War or the history of slavery. You're looking at the history of our country.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. I mean, the Southerners would have said, no, no, there were constraints around that, and we're only coming after the people that we have legitimate property rights toward. But that's not how it"}
{"id": "664695634", "date": "2018-11-06", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Ignited A 'Struggle For America's Soul'", "question_index": 27, "text": "And a lot of people have written about this and spoken about this. But for you, how do you see the long-standing consequences of slavery for African-Americans in the United States?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "664695634", "date": "2018-11-06", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Ignited A 'Struggle For America's Soul'", "question_index": 28, "text": "This is a question I know you can't answer, but I'm going to ask you about it anyways.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, let me try it this way. We often speak these days about people of color or minorities. And there are good reasons to group people into those categories under certain circumstances. But I don't t"}
{"id": "664695634", "date": "2018-11-06", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Ignited A 'Struggle For America's Soul'", "question_index": 29, "text": "The divisions in our country seem so strong right now that some people are actually worried that there is going to be an actual fight - you know, expressed through just, like, fighting in the streets between people from different political sides or something more extreme than even that. How serious a worry do you think that is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "664695634", "date": "2018-11-06", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Ignited A 'Struggle For America's Soul'", "question_index": 30, "text": "I knew that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I can't answer the question. But I can say..."}
{"id": "664695634", "date": "2018-11-06", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Ignited A 'Struggle For America's Soul'", "question_index": 31, "text": "Well, I want to thank you so much for joining us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. But I can say that writing this book was sort of a double-edged experience for me. On the one hand, you look at what happened in the 1850s - at the complete breakdown of the federal government,"}
{"id": "664695634", "date": "2018-11-06", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Ignited A 'Struggle For America's Soul'", "question_index": 32, "text": "Andrew Delbanco is the author of \"The War Before The War: Fugitive Slaves And The Struggle For America's Soul From The Revolution To The Civil War.\" He's the Alexander Hamilton professor of American studies at Columbia University. After we take a short break, Justin Chang will review the new film \"Burning\" which is adapted from a short story by Haruki Murakami. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My pleasure. Thank you very much."}
{"id": "665215124", "date": "2018-11-07", "guest": "Janet Reitman", "title": "Did Law Enforcement Overlook The Threat Of Far-Right Extremism?", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Last month, in the span of just a few days, the Tree of Life synagogue was attacked. Several critics of the President received pipe bombs in the mail. And a man, after unsuccessfully trying to break into a black church, was arrested for shooting to death two African-Americans at a supermarket in Kentucky. Now the headline of a New York Times Magazine article warns, U.S. law enforcement failed to see the threat of white nationalism, and now they don't know how to stop it. The article is about how domestic counter-terrorism strategy has ignored the rising danger of far-right domestic extremism and how that has enabled the movement to grow and become more dangerous. The article was written by my guest, Janet Reitman, who is a contributing writer to the magazine and a contributing editor for Rolling Stone. She's working on a book about the rise of the far-right in post-9/11 America. Her new article will be published in The New York Times Magazine this Sunday. It's already on the Times website. Janet Reitman, welcome to FRESH AIR. You write that for two decades, domestic counterterrorism strategy has ignored the rising danger of far-right extremism, and you illustrate that with several points. But one of them is with Lieutenant Dan Stout, who was preparing for a Unite the Right rally in Gainesville, Fla., and had seen what happened in Charlottesville. And he knew next to nothing about the \"alt-right\" or white nationalism, so he tried to find what the latest intelligence was on white nationalism. And he ran into some obstacles. What problems did he face trying to find out more?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "665215124", "date": "2018-11-07", "guest": "Janet Reitman", "title": "Did Law Enforcement Overlook The Threat Of Far-Right Extremism?", "question_index": 1, "text": "What about...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "perspective."}
{"id": "665215124", "date": "2018-11-07", "guest": "Janet Reitman", "title": "Did Law Enforcement Overlook The Threat Of Far-Right Extremism?", "question_index": 2, "text": "...Homeland Security?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But..."}
{"id": "665215124", "date": "2018-11-07", "guest": "Janet Reitman", "title": "Did Law Enforcement Overlook The Threat Of Far-Right Extremism?", "question_index": 3, "text": "So Lieutenant Stout was lucky in the sense that the Gainesville rally was kind of a fizzle because the protesters far overwhelmed the white nationalists who came. But it illustrates your larger point that he couldn't find information about who might be coming and what the threat might be. So whose job is it to be monitoring extremists on the far-right who do pose the threat of violence?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Homeland Security had produced - you know, Homeland Security produces these threat assessments, these kinds of reports. And they had done some on white supremacists over the years. But they were not -"}
{"id": "665215124", "date": "2018-11-07", "guest": "Janet Reitman", "title": "Did Law Enforcement Overlook The Threat Of Far-Right Extremism?", "question_index": 4, "text": "So you're saying there isn't much - there aren't many resources being put toward far-right extremism. But if you compare the numbers of violent attacks from jihadis in the U.S., extremist Muslims, with the number of attacks from far-right extremists in the U.S. like white nationalists, how do the numbers compare?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The joint terrorism task forces, the DHS-run fusion centers at the local level - they are able and should be able to at least track, pay attention to these events. That's the first, number one - pay a"}
{"id": "665215124", "date": "2018-11-07", "guest": "Janet Reitman", "title": "Did Law Enforcement Overlook The Threat Of Far-Right Extremism?", "question_index": 5, "text": "You write after President Trump came into office that security analysts noted with alarm what seem to be a systematic erosion of the Department of Homeland Security's analytic and operational capabilities with regard to countering violent extremism. And you're referring there to violent extremism from the far-right - and that this began with the appointment of a new national security team. What were the features of this new national security team when President Trump came to the White House?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The number of far-right extremist attacks and deaths related to far right extremism vastly, vastly outnumber the number of deaths connected to Islamic extremism. It's by - the ADL, the Anti-Defamation"}
{"id": "665215124", "date": "2018-11-07", "guest": "Janet Reitman", "title": "Did Law Enforcement Overlook The Threat Of Far-Right Extremism?", "question_index": 6, "text": "So you also report in 2017 at the Department of Homeland Security's Office of Intelligence and Analysis analysts who had been looking at domestic terrorism and coordinating with local law enforcement sharing information - they were reassigned as public affairs liaisons. Does it mean that it's going to be more difficult for cities to find out about potential threats from, for instance, rallies that are going to be held there and people coming in to do right-wing rallies?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Donald Trump was advised prior to being elected by - in terms of national security by a number of people who came from what we might call the Islamophobic fringe, including people like Frank Gaffne"}
{"id": "665215124", "date": "2018-11-07", "guest": "Janet Reitman", "title": "Did Law Enforcement Overlook The Threat Of Far-Right Extremism?", "question_index": 7, "text": "What makes you say that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think so. If there is not a lot of investigative work done on the part of, say, the FBI to pre-emptively warn cities about who might be coming to their community based on, you know, analysis o"}
{"id": "665215124", "date": "2018-11-07", "guest": "Janet Reitman", "title": "Did Law Enforcement Overlook The Threat Of Far-Right Extremism?", "question_index": 8, "text": "What you makes you say that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's very scary."}
{"id": "665215124", "date": "2018-11-07", "guest": "Janet Reitman", "title": "Did Law Enforcement Overlook The Threat Of Far-Right Extremism?", "question_index": 9, "text": "But the people who are responsible for the attacks that you just mentioned seem like they're not leaders of the movement. They're, like, lone wolves who found the far-right through various websites. So in what sense are they the wave of the future? It's not like they're part of an organized cell that, you know, is taking some kind of orders from the top.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because that is - my reporting on this kind of quote, unquote, \"alt-right\" movement is that they found Charlottesville and those big rallies that they were having to be in some ways counterproductive."}
{"id": "665215124", "date": "2018-11-07", "guest": "Janet Reitman", "title": "Did Law Enforcement Overlook The Threat Of Far-Right Extremism?", "question_index": 10, "text": "And also, my impression, too, is that people who are part of, like, the larger white national movement - they want to be heard. They want to be seen. They want people to feel and hear their voice and their power.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, the wave of the future - that wasn't..."}
{"id": "665215124", "date": "2018-11-07", "guest": "Janet Reitman", "title": "Did Law Enforcement Overlook The Threat Of Far-Right Extremism?", "question_index": 11, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Janet Reitman, a contributing writer for The New York Times Magazine. Her new article in the magazine is titled \"U.S. Law Enforcement Failed To See The Threat Of White Nationalism. Now They Don't Know How To Stop It.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "First of all, I think that the wave of the future are - quote, unquote, \"lone wolf cells.\" They are one guy, a couple of people, who are, you know, self-radicalizing. This is a movement in many regard"}
{"id": "665215124", "date": "2018-11-07", "guest": "Janet Reitman", "title": "Did Law Enforcement Overlook The Threat Of Far-Right Extremism?", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Janet Reitman, a contributing writer for The New York Times Magazine. Her new piece in the magazine, which is on the web - on The Times' website and will be published in the actual newspaper on Sunday, is called \"U.S. Law Enforcement Failed To See The Threat Of White Nationalism. Now They Don't Know How To Stop It.\" One of the things you write about is a report that some of our listeners might know about that came out in 2009 from the Department of Homeland Security's Office of Intelligence and Analysis. And this report issued a warning of a rise in right-wing extremism. The report was titled \"Rightwing Extremism: Current Economic And Political Climate Fueling Resurgence In Radicalization And Recruitment.\" And the economic and political climate referred to in the report had to do with the fact that President Obama, a black man, was president and that the housing crisis and the financial crisis had left people with a lot of financial problems. And that also a lot of military people were returning from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and finding that they had few options, that the housing crisis was making their options and the financial crisis was making their options even worse and that they were feeling disenfranchised and left with - without what they needed. So what happened to this report? Oh, another thing the report mentioned was that between October 2007 and March of 2008, Daryl Johnson, the author of the report - his unit documented the formation of 45 new antigovernment militia groups. So what happened to this report?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "First of all, I think that the wave of the future are - quote, unquote, \"lone wolf cells.\" They are one guy, a couple of people, who are, you know, self-radicalizing. This is a movement in many regard"}
{"id": "665215124", "date": "2018-11-07", "guest": "Janet Reitman", "title": "Did Law Enforcement Overlook The Threat Of Far-Right Extremism?", "question_index": 13, "text": "So the Obama administration withdrew the report from 2009.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This went out to all of DHS' partners in law enforcement. And within a very short time - a couple of days - it was leaked to a right-wing radio host named Roger Hedgecock, who's, like - has a syndicat"}
{"id": "665215124", "date": "2018-11-07", "guest": "Janet Reitman", "title": "Did Law Enforcement Overlook The Threat Of Far-Right Extremism?", "question_index": 14, "text": "But what happened to the information in the report? Did the Obama administration take any action on the information?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "665215124", "date": "2018-11-07", "guest": "Janet Reitman", "title": "Did Law Enforcement Overlook The Threat Of Far-Right Extremism?", "question_index": 15, "text": "And I think one of the points of your article is that far-right extremists, white nationalists, neo-Nazis took advantage of the lack of attention they were getting from the federal government.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So they did continue to look at domestic extremism. There was no dedicated far-right extremist team like what Johnson had set up. He had this tiny, little unit of analysts who spend all their time on "}
{"id": "665215124", "date": "2018-11-07", "guest": "Janet Reitman", "title": "Did Law Enforcement Overlook The Threat Of Far-Right Extremism?", "question_index": 16, "text": "Yes, absolutely. The Internet had exploded in a - as a social venue in ways that I don't think the federal government was particularly clued into or aware of. They didn't see - they were paying attention to it in some ways in terms of how ISIS was using it to recruit and sort of mobilize young people. They weren't really looking at the - at least as far as I've found, they really weren't looking at the far-right and seeing how they were using their spaces in that same regard. And they've just - they also just weren't taking seriously what was being said. And that's, like - that gets to the core of actually in some ways who we are as a society. A society based around institutions that have built by and to benefit white people has a very hard time looking at itself and seeing language and offensive ideology as dangerous, whereas, you know, you could see, for example, a kid putting the black flag of jihad on his Twitter feed. That's actually almost an act of war. That's something that could earn you an investigation. You know, there were kids who were investigated by the federal government. And, you know, there were material support cases opened on kids based on what they - initially based on what they were talking about on their social media pages. That - putting a Confederate flag on your Twitter feed wouldn't get a blink of an eye, you know? And so it's a really complicated issue of who we are as a society. What do we - how seriously do we take this imagery, this kind of speech? How seriously do we look at the ideology of white supremacy and go, this is actually dangerous to people? I think we're just coming to terms with that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So they did continue to look at domestic extremism. There was no dedicated far-right extremist team like what Johnson had set up. He had this tiny, little unit of analysts who spend all their time on "}
{"id": "665215124", "date": "2018-11-07", "guest": "Janet Reitman", "title": "Did Law Enforcement Overlook The Threat Of Far-Right Extremism?", "question_index": 17, "text": "Well, Janet Reitman, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So they did continue to look at domestic extremism. There was no dedicated far-right extremist team like what Johnson had set up. He had this tiny, little unit of analysts who spend all their time on "}
{"id": "665215124", "date": "2018-11-07", "guest": "Janet Reitman", "title": "Did Law Enforcement Overlook The Threat Of Far-Right Extremism?", "question_index": 18, "text": "Janet Reitman's New York Times Magazine article titled \"U.S. Law Enforcement Failed To See The Threat Of White Nationalism. And Now They Don't Know How To Stop It\" (ph) will be published in the magazine Sunday. It's already on the website. After a break, Sam Briger will talk with Juan Gabriel Vasquez, whose new novel is about political assassinations and conspiracy theories. And Ken Tucker will review the new album by Pistol Annies. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me, Terry."}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 0, "text": "Brian May, what a pleasure to have you here. Welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As audience, singing) We will, we will rock you."}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 1, "text": "So I have to tell you, in preparation for this interview, I was listening back to a lot of Queen recordings and thinking about how much fun some of them are and how dramatic some of them are and how they mix, you know, like hard rock and music theater and opera. And I thought we'd start this part of the interview with the most famous song that you wrote, which is \"We Will Rock You.\" So let's hear a little bit of it, then we'll talk.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 2, "text": "Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 3, "text": "That's Queen's \"We Will Rock You,\" which was written by my guest, Brian May, who was the lead guitarist for the band. So what inspired that song? I mean, it's been played at so many sports stadiums over the decades. What were you thinking about when you wrote it? Were you thinking of it as a sports anthem?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Buddy, you're a boy, make a big noise playing in the street, going to be a big man someday. You got mud on your face, you big disgrace, kicking your can all over the place, singing - we will"}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 4, "text": "That's right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not really. I was thinking of it more as a rock anthem, I suppose, and a means of uniting an audience or taking advantage - you know, enjoying the fact that an audience is united. And I didn't rea"}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 5, "text": "Well, I think, you know, that's - if people don't even realize it was written, it's in part because it almost sounds like an old-school cheerleader cheer, you know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...One of those things that people think was always there. You know, it sort of goes back into prehistory. So in a way, that's the best compliment you could have for a song."}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 6, "text": "....Because of that stomp, stomp, clap thing and because it's a chant.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's become a part of the fabric of life."}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 7, "text": "So how did you record the stomp, stomp, clap so it would sound grand and reverberating, as opposed to three people, four people stomping their feet and clapping?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. Well, the stomp, stomp, clap thing - yeah, people think it was always there, but actually, it wasn't. And I don't know how it got into my head. All I can tell you is we played a gig - so"}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 8, "text": "That's amazing. Now, here's another really interesting thing to me about \"We Will Rock You.\" It's the most famous song that you've written. It's a largely a cappella song. You come in for your guitar solo at the very end. So until like the very, very end, like, you're not even playing on it. And it's just kind of amazing that you, as the guitarist, would write a song that you're barely featured on.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I had this idea if we did it enough times and we didn't use any reverb or anything that I could build a sound which would work. We were very lucky. We were working in an old disused church in North"}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well, yes. And you're very good at that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm featured stomping and clapping, you see."}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 10, "text": "OK. So let's just hear the end of \"We Will Rock You.\" And we'll hear that guitar solo at the end. Let's do it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, you see, songs aren't about guitars to me. Songs are about truthfully, a song is about a singer, in my opinion. And if the singer gets the idea across, then you're almost home and dry. You"}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 11, "text": "So that's the end of \"We Will Rock You,\" written by my guest guitarist and singer-songwriter Brian May, who was one of the founding members of Queen. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) We will - we will rock you. Everybody, we will - we will rock you. We will - we will rock you. All right."}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 12, "text": "Yeah, please.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually can I comment on the end of that?"}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 13, "text": "So you know, Queen is such an unusual mix of hard rock, music theater and also an opera into that. And when you consider your average hard rock fan of the '70s and '80s, I would say most of them would be totally not caring about music theater or opera. And it's amazing - it's surprising that you that you were all able to mix that together in a way that really just went over so big with hard rock fans.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2010 interview with Queen guitarist and astrophysicist Brian May. The group, in which he was a founding member, is the subject of the new movie \"Bohemian R"}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 14, "text": "I mean, do you agree that that's an unusual mix?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hmm."}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 15, "text": "Oh, yes, I do", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is an unusual mix. Again, it wasn't really deliberate. It wasn't planned. We were just sort of letting out all the stuff that's inside us. I think as kids we were exposed to all kinds of stuff. You"}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is an unusual mix. Again, it wasn't really deliberate. It wasn't planned. We were just sort of letting out all the stuff that's inside us. I think as kids we were exposed to all kinds of stuff. You"}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 17, "text": "Now, when you teamed up with Freddie Mercury, who was, of course, the lead singer of - the late lead singer of Queen, did he nevertheless push you in directions or, you know, nudge you in directions that you didn't expect to head in - musically, theatrically, costumes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, you do? OK. He had the singing strings you know. And it would be a vast sort of panoply of violins and cellos and violas, et cetera. And that was all influential on us. I know for a fact this all "}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 18, "text": "So let me ask you about the name of the band Queen. How did you feel about giving it that name? Freddie Mercury...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, definitely costumes, yeah, I think. You know, Freddie was - I remember when Freddie first saw us play before he was in our band, as it were. we were called Smile. And he came along, and he said "}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 19, "text": "But let me just ask you the question. Freddie Mercury was either gay or bisexual. I'm not sure how he would have described himself. But he didn't really talk about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You've gone back a long way now, Terry."}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 20, "text": "Would he have said that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 21, "text": "Would he have said that in public?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He did say that."}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 22, "text": "So - but the name of the band - like, there's so many homophobic hard rock fans - there were in the '70s and '80s.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He did say that in public. Freddie was not one to mince his words."}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 23, "text": "Oh, really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But it was a huge deal. And I know that it really damaged our sort of whole relationship with certainly radio in this country and probably the public as well."}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 24, "text": "I think we should play here \"Bohemian Rhapsody,\" which is perhaps, like, the most theatrical", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's 2010 interview with Brian May. He's a founding member and lead guitarist of the band Queen, whose lead singer was t"}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 25, "text": "piece...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's 2010 interview with Brian May. He's a founding member and lead guitarist of the band Queen, whose lead singer was t"}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 26, "text": "Yeah - of Queen.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A little \"Bohemian Rhapsody.\""}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 27, "text": "How did he demo the song for you before the band started performing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Yeah, this is Freddie's great baby. And yes we all contributed to the way it developed in the studio. But really it was so much constructed in his head before he ever stepped in there."}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 28, "text": "Now, you mentioned that this started as, you know, piano and then piano, bass and drums. But you do have a guitar solo, a very well-known one.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- that the tape wore out. We suddenly realized we were losing top on the vocals. They were getting a bit dull. We held the tape up to the light, and you could see through it. So we - there was hardly "}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 29, "text": "Yeah. And it kind of bridges two sections of the song. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Well, that's added after. Yes."}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 30, "text": "So I thought we'd hear an excerpt of the song and hear your guitar solo bridging", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 31, "text": "those two sections. So here's Queen's \"Bohemian Rhapsody\" with my guest, Brian May, on guitar and also doing some of the voices.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 32, "text": "A lot.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd have to go back and check, but a lot."}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 33, "text": "Could you explain to me what the mama mia/Galileo/Scaramouche part is about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I suppose, you know, a few dozen. Yeah, a lot of voices on there because we're singing - normally, there's three of us. Me and Freddie and Roger would sing, John wouldn't. And we would sing one line u"}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 34, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No..."}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 35, "text": "Could Freddie Mercury have explained it to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "because I didn't write it."}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 36, "text": "Did...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You should've asked Freddie. Oh, well, you don't have to ask him - wouldn't you? Yeah."}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 37, "text": "Why wouldn't you have asked him, what am I singing about? Why am I singing this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would never ask him."}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 38, "text": "So let me just play you one thing that I'm sure you're familiar with. Here it comes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's a funny thing. I think about it quite a lot. We never discussed what our songs meant. It was a sort of unwritten law that there was something in the songs which was very personal. And i"}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 39, "text": "Yes, Mike Myers...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The delightful \"Wayne's World,\" yes, yes."}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 40, "text": "...For the movie \"Wayne's World.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The delightful \"Wayne's World,\" yes, yes."}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 41, "text": "What did it do for Queen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have to thank Mike Myers for introducing us to a whole new generation at that time. It was amazing what it did."}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 42, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "well, he said, you know, it might do for us what nothing else would do, and he was dead right. You know, it's amazing that even the fact that Freddie died didn't make that much of a difference. But th"}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 43, "text": "Have you heard the Muppets version", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it's a strange quote, but it sort of came true in a very strange way. But \"Wayne's World\" was the vehicle through which young people discovered Queen - you know, a whole new set of young people. A"}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 44, "text": "of \"Bohemian Rhapsody\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it's a strange quote, but it sort of came true in a very strange way. But \"Wayne's World\" was the vehicle through which young people discovered Queen - you know, a whole new set of young people. A"}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 45, "text": "It's really fun. Can I play that for our listeners?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, of course, of course, yeah. Well, it..."}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 46, "text": "Oh, I see. I see.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, you can. Well, we had a - we'd had to have heard it because it's us on the record. You know, they asked us if they could do it. And they said, look; we can sing this, and we can perform it. But "}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 47, "text": "It's so much fun. So here's part of it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Generally we say - generally we don't let anybody do that. But in this case, because it's the venerable Muppets, we said, yes, we'll do that with you. So yes, we produced it with them."}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 48, "text": "Let me get to some more recent developments in your life. Just a few years ago, you got your Ph.D. in a subject that you had been pursuing before Queen, and that's astrophysics. You have an astrophysics...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2010 interview with Queen guitarist Brian May. The group, in which he was a founding member, is the subject of the new movie \"Bohemian Rhapsody\" starring R"}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 49, "text": "...Book that you co-wrote recently, and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 50, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's called \"Bang!\"..."}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 51, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...\"A Complete History Of The Universe.\""}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 52, "text": "It's interesting for me to think about you going back to the university after you'd become such a star. Of course when you're getting your Ph.D., it's not like you're sitting in a large lecture class with people, but...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "An unassuming little title, I feel."}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 53, "text": "Yeah. What was hard about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes, well, basically it is, you know? Yeah, I didn't do that many lectures, but basically you're abandoning your status outside. And you're going back, and you're being a student. It was tough, I "}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 54, "text": "You wrote your thesis on a survey of radical velocities in the zodiacal dust cloud. I don't really know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's tough because you're having to be very much subservient to the system again, you know? And you forget how hard that is after you've left school and university, you know, to go back into tha"}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 55, "text": "...What any of that means.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, radial, radial..."}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 56, "text": "Oh, radial. I wrote it as radical velocities. I still don't know what it means.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a survey of radial velocities in the zodiacal dust cloud, yeah."}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 57, "text": "We - can you give a very layperson's description of what you were studying in that, of what you were...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 58, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I can."}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 59, "text": "Yeah, that's true, isn't it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm just - it's a study of dust - as simple as that. It's dust - in this case, in the solar system. So we're actually surrounded by it. The Earth moves through a cloud of dust constantly, and a lot of"}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 60, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that's a Doppler shift. Yeah, that's because the waves are stretching out as this police car passes you, and it changes from coming towards you to going away from you. Now, the same kind of thing "}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 61, "text": "So - yeah, so what were the larger implications of what you were looking at?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And from that, you can infer how they're moving."}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 62, "text": "The dust.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A-ha, that's a good question. The larger implications are, where did it come from, and was it part of the creation of the universe, or is it being created now?"}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 63, "text": "Well, Brian May, it's been such a pleasure to have you. Thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The dust, yeah. And in fact, all of the above is true. You know, a certain amount of dust is created in every event in the universe and particularly in supernovae. A lot of dust is put out. And we hum"}
{"id": "666197208", "date": "2018-11-09", "guest": "Gwilym Lee", "title": "Queen Guitarist Brian May On Writing Anthems And Studying Astrophysics", "question_index": 64, "text": "I really appreciate it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. It was a pleasure, Terry."}
{"id": "667476595", "date": "2018-11-13", "guest": "Stan Lee", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Marvel Comics Writer And Editor Stan Lee", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're going to listen back to an interview with Stan Lee. He died yesterday at the age of 95. He co-created Spider-Man, the Fantastic Four, the Incredible Hulk, the X-Men, Black Panther and other Marvel Comics characters. Over the years, he worked as Marvel's head writer, art director and publisher. When I spoke with him in 1991, he was overseeing the adaptation of Marvel characters into films and TV shows, and he had just written the introduction to an illustrated history of Marvel Comics. He told me how he came up with one of his most famous superheroes, Spider-Man.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "667476595", "date": "2018-11-13", "guest": "Stan Lee", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Marvel Comics Writer And Editor Stan Lee", "question_index": 1, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Before I came up with the name Spider-Man, I had decided I wanted a superhero who could crawl on walls, stick to the ceiling and so forth. And I said, gee, that's a real insect power. What'll I call h"}
{"id": "667476595", "date": "2018-11-13", "guest": "Stan Lee", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Marvel Comics Writer And Editor Stan Lee", "question_index": 2, "text": "What makes a superhero a Stan Lee superhero? What are some of the qualities?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That really had no appeal at all. And I went down a whole list. And when I got to spider man, I mean, it was like a bell rang. A light went off above my head. Spider man was it. And when I put the ama"}
{"id": "667476595", "date": "2018-11-13", "guest": "Stan Lee", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Marvel Comics Writer And Editor Stan Lee", "question_index": 3, "text": "How did the superheroes that you created compare to the kinds of heroes in comics when you started working at Marvel back when you were a teenager?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", the one thing that I've tried to do is give them the most human and realistic qualities possible. Now, it may sound like a contradiction in terms because our superheroes are fantasy characters with "}
{"id": "667476595", "date": "2018-11-13", "guest": "Stan Lee", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Marvel Comics Writer And Editor Stan Lee", "question_index": 4, "text": "Like, give me an example of the type of writing you thought was really square and dull.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when I started working for the comics, all the heroes were really cut out of the same mold. They were tall and handsome and strong and noble. And as far as their dialogue went, I felt insufferab"}
{"id": "667476595", "date": "2018-11-13", "guest": "Stan Lee", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Marvel Comics Writer And Editor Stan Lee", "question_index": 5, "text": "What about deciding on the alliterative sounds that you would use when somebody got hit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. I want you to imagine something. I want you to imagine that you're walking down the street and you see a monster coming toward you. And this monster is 12-feet tall with purple skin, forearms, a t"}
{"id": "667476595", "date": "2018-11-13", "guest": "Stan Lee", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Marvel Comics Writer And Editor Stan Lee", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I loved sounds. And again, I think what it is, I've always hated cliches. As you can imagine, formally in the comics, if somebody was hit or if there was a sound effect of a loud noise, the sound effe"}
{"id": "667476595", "date": "2018-11-13", "guest": "Stan Lee", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Marvel Comics Writer And Editor Stan Lee", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But that might be the sound of a bullet going through a wall or something. One of my all-time favorite sound effects was btkooom. And it was spelled B-T-K-O-O-O-M, with three O's. And then I put a lit"}
{"id": "667476595", "date": "2018-11-13", "guest": "Stan Lee", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Marvel Comics Writer And Editor Stan Lee", "question_index": 8, "text": "What was the comic book code like when you started working?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so I had fun with the sound effects. As far as the alliterative names, most of our characters had alliterative names. There was Peter Parker and Bruce Banner and Reed Richards. And I had a very pr"}
{"id": "667476595", "date": "2018-11-13", "guest": "Stan Lee", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Marvel Comics Writer And Editor Stan Lee", "question_index": 9, "text": "We're listening back to my 1991 interview with Stan Lee of Marvel Comics. He died yesterday at the age of 95. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it wasn't there when I started working. But when we began to have some pressures from certain groups, we instituted a code that was similar to the motion picture code at that time. And it was wh"}
{"id": "667476595", "date": "2018-11-13", "guest": "Stan Lee", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Marvel Comics Writer And Editor Stan Lee", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 1991 interview with Stan Lee. He died yesterday at the age of 95. He co-created Spider-Man, the Fantastic Four, the Incredible Hulk, Black Panther and other Marvel Comics characters. He had been Marvel's head writer, art director and publisher.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it wasn't there when I started working. But when we began to have some pressures from certain groups, we instituted a code that was similar to the motion picture code at that time. And it was wh"}
{"id": "667476595", "date": "2018-11-13", "guest": "Stan Lee", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Marvel Comics Writer And Editor Stan Lee", "question_index": 11, "text": "I'm sure you've been asked this before, but why do superheroes so often wear tights?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it wasn't there when I started working. But when we began to have some pressures from certain groups, we instituted a code that was similar to the motion picture code at that time. And it was wh"}
{"id": "667476595", "date": "2018-11-13", "guest": "Stan Lee", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Marvel Comics Writer And Editor Stan Lee", "question_index": 12, "text": "Are you a colorful dresser yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. I think it is simply precedent. It started out that way. The first books - and I wasn't around at that time - had them that way. The funny thing is when I did our first superhero book, t"}
{"id": "667476595", "date": "2018-11-13", "guest": "Stan Lee", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Marvel Comics Writer And Editor Stan Lee", "question_index": 13, "text": "What about physically? Do you have any special physical strengths", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I'm the most conservative guy you'll ever see. I wear jeans a lot, but I don't know if that's very colorful."}
{"id": "667476595", "date": "2018-11-13", "guest": "Stan Lee", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Marvel Comics Writer And Editor Stan Lee", "question_index": 14, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I'm the most conservative guy you'll ever see. I wear jeans a lot, but I don't know if that's very colorful."}
{"id": "667476595", "date": "2018-11-13", "guest": "Stan Lee", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Marvel Comics Writer And Editor Stan Lee", "question_index": 15, "text": "Right", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I'm incredibly powerful."}
{"id": "667476595", "date": "2018-11-13", "guest": "Stan Lee", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Marvel Comics Writer And Editor Stan Lee", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I'm incredibly powerful."}
{"id": "667476595", "date": "2018-11-13", "guest": "Stan Lee", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Marvel Comics Writer And Editor Stan Lee", "question_index": 17, "text": "I want to get back to what you were saying before, that you couldn't create a character without a colorful costume 'cause the readers swore they'd never read it...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I've got these broad shoulders and bulging - no, I'm kind of tall and skinny. And I mean, nobody would ever mistake me for Arnold Schwarzenegger."}
{"id": "667476595", "date": "2018-11-13", "guest": "Stan Lee", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Marvel Comics Writer And Editor Stan Lee", "question_index": 18, "text": "...No matter how they sell the character.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I..."}
{"id": "667476595", "date": "2018-11-13", "guest": "Stan Lee", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Marvel Comics Writer And Editor Stan Lee", "question_index": 19, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "667476595", "date": "2018-11-13", "guest": "Stan Lee", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Marvel Comics Writer And Editor Stan Lee", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yeah. Right, right. Well, now with women superheroes, I bet the equivalent is no matter how wonderful the character, you have to give her a large bosom or else they won't buy it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I could create it, but it's just - I don't think we would've sold it."}
{"id": "667476595", "date": "2018-11-13", "guest": "Stan Lee", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Marvel Comics Writer And Editor Stan Lee", "question_index": 21, "text": "What you've been doing for years now at Marvel is overseeing the adaptation of Marvel characters into television and film stories. So do you initiate these things or do people come to you and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I guess you're right. But I don't know that it's anything sexist as much as symbolic. For example, you'll find that most of the heroes, as I say, they have broad shoulders and big biceps and, yo"}
{"id": "667476595", "date": "2018-11-13", "guest": "Stan Lee", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Marvel Comics Writer And Editor Stan Lee", "question_index": 22, "text": "...Make you offers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it..."}
{"id": "667476595", "date": "2018-11-13", "guest": "Stan Lee", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Marvel Comics Writer And Editor Stan Lee", "question_index": 23, "text": "So how do you like being Spider-Man's agent...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It works both ways. And I've been out on the coast long enough now that I know most of the so-called power players in the movie and television business. And it's taken a while to get started. But righ"}
{"id": "667476595", "date": "2018-11-13", "guest": "Stan Lee", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Marvel Comics Writer And Editor Stan Lee", "question_index": 24, "text": "...Instead of Spider-Man's creator?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It works both ways. And I've been out on the coast long enough now that I know most of the so-called power players in the movie and television business. And it's taken a while to get started. But righ"}
{"id": "667476595", "date": "2018-11-13", "guest": "Stan Lee", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Marvel Comics Writer And Editor Stan Lee", "question_index": 25, "text": "So Stan Lee, maybe one last thing you can clear up for me before we have to say goodbye - your birth name is Stanley Lieberman.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I enjoy doing what I'm doing. I moved out to Los Angeles about 10 years ago to set up a Marvel animation studio. And I worked there for a few years to get that going. And then little by little, I "}
{"id": "667476595", "date": "2018-11-13", "guest": "Stan Lee", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Marvel Comics Writer And Editor Stan Lee", "question_index": 26, "text": "Oh, Stanley Lieber.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No, dear."}
{"id": "667476595", "date": "2018-11-13", "guest": "Stan Lee", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Marvel Comics Writer And Editor Stan Lee", "question_index": 27, "text": "Stanley Lieber.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I was..."}
{"id": "667476595", "date": "2018-11-13", "guest": "Stan Lee", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Marvel Comics Writer And Editor Stan Lee", "question_index": 28, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was born Stanley Martin Lieber, which is a very, I think, lovely, normal name. And as I said, I wanted to write the great American novel. And when I got working in a comic book company, I said, I'm "}
{"id": "667476595", "date": "2018-11-13", "guest": "Stan Lee", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Marvel Comics Writer And Editor Stan Lee", "question_index": 29, "text": "So is Stan Lee short for Stanley or short for...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "667476595", "date": "2018-11-13", "guest": "Stan Lee", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Marvel Comics Writer And Editor Stan Lee", "question_index": 30, "text": "...Stan Lieber?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Lieber."}
{"id": "667476595", "date": "2018-11-13", "guest": "Stan Lee", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Marvel Comics Writer And Editor Stan Lee", "question_index": 31, "text": "Well, it certainly worked, hasn't it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. I don't know, really. I can't remember whether I cut Stanley into two names or whether I figured Stan from Stanley and Lee from Lieber. I don't remember what the thinking was. But I figu"}
{"id": "667476595", "date": "2018-11-13", "guest": "Stan Lee", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Marvel Comics Writer And Editor Stan Lee", "question_index": 32, "text": "Stan Lee, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It hasn't hurt, really."}
{"id": "667476595", "date": "2018-11-13", "guest": "Stan Lee", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Marvel Comics Writer And Editor Stan Lee", "question_index": 33, "text": "My interview with Stan Lee was recorded in 1991. He died yesterday at the age of 95. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, my guest will be Sandi Tan, the director of a new documentary called \"Shirkers\" about being conned by her own mentor, a man twice her age. Also, we'll hear from Steve Yeun of \"The Walking Dead\" and \"Sorry To Bother You.\" He stars in the new film \"Burning.\" I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it's been a real pleasure, Terry. Thank you for having me."}
{"id": "667476595", "date": "2018-11-13", "guest": "Stan Lee", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Marvel Comics Writer And Editor Stan Lee", "question_index": 34, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Mooj Zadie, Thea Chaloner and Seth Kelley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it's been a real pleasure, Terry. Thank you for having me."}
{"id": "667803724", "date": "2018-11-14", "guest": "Sandi Tan", "title": "Netflix Documentary Revisits Decades-Old Mystery Between Filmmaker And Mentor", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Sandi Tan says she knew it looked strange to outsiders when she was 18 and spending most of her time with a man more than twice her age. That man was her mentor, Georges Cardona. This story doesn't go in the direction you might think. He did not sexually assault her, but after she put her faith in him, he did steal her dream - literally stole it. Tan's dream was to become a filmmaker, to make the kind of edgy films that she loved, the kind of films that weren't shown in Singapore where she's from because of government censorship. When she met Cardona, who was teaching a film workshop in Singapore, he became her friend and mentor. She describes him as a man of unplaceable age and origin who projected himself as an American filmmaker. He encouraged her to write a screenplay. When she completed her screenplay, which she called \"Shirkers,\" he declared it a masterpiece. He knew how to get film and equipment, and he became the film's director. She played the leading role. One of her girlfriends served as producer, another as assistant director. After they finished shooting, Georges had the footage. He disappeared and took the footage with him. Gone was the film, her dream, even her sense of identity. Making another film seemed out of reach. Instead, at the age of 22, Tan became a film critic for Singapore's largest newspaper and continued to write screenplays that never got made. She moved to America, kept writing about film, married film critic John Powers, who you may know as FRESH AIR's former film critic and current critic at large. And she wrote a novel. In 2011, nearly 20 years after shooting her film \"Shirkers,\" she got one of the biggest surprises of her life. Georges had died. His widow found 70 cans of footage labeled \"Shirkers\" and it was in perfect shape. She sent it to Tan. You can see some of that footage and how remarkable it looks because it's incorporated in Tan's new documentary. It's about her teenage years in Singapore, making \"Shirkers,\" dealing with Georges' betrayal and unraveling the mystery of who Georges really was. The new documentary has the same title as the original unfinished film, \"Shirkers.\" She says, some call my film a punk rock fairytale. Some call it a ghost story. But all I'll say is, time can be a very strange friend. Sandi Tan won the World Cinema directing award at Sundance. \"Shirkers\" is now streaming on Netflix. Sandi Tan, welcome to FRESH AIR. So when you made \"Shirkers\" in - when you were 19 and living in Singapore, it sounds like there was a pretty strict censorship code for pop culture, and a lot of the movies that you wanted to see weren't legal there. You had no access to them. So as a film lover turned filmmaker, what kind of system did you create in order to see the films that you wanted to see?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "667803724", "date": "2018-11-14", "guest": "Sandi Tan", "title": "Netflix Documentary Revisits Decades-Old Mystery Between Filmmaker And Mentor", "question_index": 1, "text": "So you were a film lover who basically started, like, an underground network for importing films that you wanted to see that weren't available in Singapore. When you were 18, in the year between high school and college, you met Georges, who you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I developed this, I guess, clandestine video network with my cousin in Florida who had no interest in movies but happened to have access to VCRs. And I taught her how to kind of hook them together and"}
{"id": "667803724", "date": "2018-11-14", "guest": "Sandi Tan", "title": "Netflix Documentary Revisits Decades-Old Mystery Between Filmmaker And Mentor", "question_index": 2, "text": "...Who you did not realize was a pathological liar. And he was teaching a film workshop. And he loved talking about movies, and you became - he became like a mentor to you. What did it mean to you to have somebody who was American - at least he said he was American - who knew so much about film? What did it mean to have a man like that in your life, an adult like that in your life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I did."}
{"id": "667803724", "date": "2018-11-14", "guest": "Sandi Tan", "title": "Netflix Documentary Revisits Decades-Old Mystery Between Filmmaker And Mentor", "question_index": 3, "text": "You went on a road trip with Georges...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, the grown-ups around me - this is the context of 19 - late 1980s, early 1990s Singapore. You know, they're completely conservative. The grown-ups around you are only concerned with making mo"}
{"id": "667803724", "date": "2018-11-14", "guest": "Sandi Tan", "title": "Netflix Documentary Revisits Decades-Old Mystery Between Filmmaker And Mentor", "question_index": 4, "text": "...Through parts of America, starting in New Orleans, where he had lived before going to Singapore. And you write, even back then, I knew how it looked - on the road with a married man more than twice my age, and I knew he had a wife and child. And in your director's statement, you wrote, (reading) so what if Georges was 40 and, like, driving around late at night with us teenage girls? He was one of us, spiritually. Besides, we were only talking about movies - always movies. Georges and I sat in his Nissan on my driveway for hours, night after night. As they say now, the optics weren't great, but so what? People around me were limited. They watched terrible movies and thought in tawdry cliches. I pitied them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "667803724", "date": "2018-11-14", "guest": "Sandi Tan", "title": "Netflix Documentary Revisits Decades-Old Mystery Between Filmmaker And Mentor", "question_index": 5, "text": "I think that's really funny. Did you ever think that there was a sexual subtext for him? You do write that he gave you strange signals and one night invited you to touch his belly and that you ignored him, and then you both pretended it never happened.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "667803724", "date": "2018-11-14", "guest": "Sandi Tan", "title": "Netflix Documentary Revisits Decades-Old Mystery Between Filmmaker And Mentor", "question_index": 6, "text": "What did you make of that? How did you interpret it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, the..."}
{"id": "667803724", "date": "2018-11-14", "guest": "Sandi Tan", "title": "Netflix Documentary Revisits Decades-Old Mystery Between Filmmaker And Mentor", "question_index": 7, "text": "So you and Georges decided to make a movie together, and you were going to write it. You did write it. He directed it. Your friend Jasmine was an associate producer and editor of the film.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I was actually really freaked out 'cause I did not interpret that as being necessarily sexual at the time, you know, 'cause in my mind was so - put him in a different category, and he wasn't pus"}
{"id": "667803724", "date": "2018-11-14", "guest": "Sandi Tan", "title": "Netflix Documentary Revisits Decades-Old Mystery Between Filmmaker And Mentor", "question_index": 8, "text": "OK. There were...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My friend Jasmine was - she was supposed to edit the film, and she was an assistant director of the film - the original film."}
{"id": "667803724", "date": "2018-11-14", "guest": "Sandi Tan", "title": "Netflix Documentary Revisits Decades-Old Mystery Between Filmmaker And Mentor", "question_index": 9, "text": "Right. And another friend of yours was a producer of the original film - Sophie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She's associate producer of this one."}
{"id": "667803724", "date": "2018-11-14", "guest": "Sandi Tan", "title": "Netflix Documentary Revisits Decades-Old Mystery Between Filmmaker And Mentor", "question_index": 10, "text": "So describe the screenplay a little bit, just - not the whole plot, but just, like, you know - if you were pitching it, how would you describe it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "667803724", "date": "2018-11-14", "guest": "Sandi Tan", "title": "Netflix Documentary Revisits Decades-Old Mystery Between Filmmaker And Mentor", "question_index": 11, "text": "Handgun meaning her hand.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a road movie in the smallest country in the world. And I played S, the lead character in this. She's the 16-year-old - I guess she's - the road movie is an excuse for her to go around auditioning"}
{"id": "667803724", "date": "2018-11-14", "guest": "Sandi Tan", "title": "Netflix Documentary Revisits Decades-Old Mystery Between Filmmaker And Mentor", "question_index": 12, "text": "There are remarkable colors in your movie. Like, in the original movie that you made that you incorporate into your documentary about the making of the movie, the colors are amazing. Like, there's a scene in a bowling alley, and usually, bowling balls are kind of black or speckled. And these are, like, pink and orange bowling balls. Like, did you color them, or were they really that way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Her hand being kind of used as an imaginary gun. And it's kind of left ambiguous. But basically, it was an excuse for me to collect together, you know, in a feature film all the kind of places that I "}
{"id": "667803724", "date": "2018-11-14", "guest": "Sandi Tan", "title": "Netflix Documentary Revisits Decades-Old Mystery Between Filmmaker And Mentor", "question_index": 13, "text": "So Georges was a con man - and we'll talk about some of the other bad things that he did - but do you also think he was really a talented and dedicated filmmaker?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were that way, but we spent a lot of effort on production design of making sure that the colors popped. It was so important to us because we were working on 16 mm. We got the film donated by Koda"}
{"id": "667803724", "date": "2018-11-14", "guest": "Sandi Tan", "title": "Netflix Documentary Revisits Decades-Old Mystery Between Filmmaker And Mentor", "question_index": 14, "text": "So after the film was shot, you left for England for college, leaving Georges in Singapore to process the 70 cans of film. And you realize that none of you had seen a single frame that you'd shot. And then you waited and waited for word from Georges about how the film looked. And then you didn't - outside of a couple of oblique messages, you never heard from him again. So the film was basically stolen from you, and it wasn't until many years that you got it back. How did you feel? How did you deal with it emotionally when you realized you weren't going to get the film - that this film that you poured your heart into, that you'd poured your dreams into - that it was literally stolen from you by your own director and friend?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I think he's extremely talented as a storyteller and extremely talented as a photographer and cinematographer. He happened to have a very good eye, so he could have been a very talented filmmaker"}
{"id": "667803724", "date": "2018-11-14", "guest": "Sandi Tan", "title": "Netflix Documentary Revisits Decades-Old Mystery Between Filmmaker And Mentor", "question_index": 15, "text": "You kept - he led you to believe, just keep waiting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a lot of anger and frustration at first before the disbelief set it. It was a lot of shame also. I felt like I had let myself be fooled or, you know, the people around me would be, I told you s"}
{"id": "667803724", "date": "2018-11-14", "guest": "Sandi Tan", "title": "Netflix Documentary Revisits Decades-Old Mystery Between Filmmaker And Mentor", "question_index": 16, "text": "So you were in this...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "667803724", "date": "2018-11-14", "guest": "Sandi Tan", "title": "Netflix Documentary Revisits Decades-Old Mystery Between Filmmaker And Mentor", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yes. So you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's going to send you something. He's going to send you something."}
{"id": "667803724", "date": "2018-11-14", "guest": "Sandi Tan", "title": "Netflix Documentary Revisits Decades-Old Mystery Between Filmmaker And Mentor", "question_index": 18, "text": "...Were in this state of, like, suspension for a really long time, you know, expecting...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it was on and on."}
{"id": "667803724", "date": "2018-11-14", "guest": "Sandi Tan", "title": "Netflix Documentary Revisits Decades-Old Mystery Between Filmmaker And Mentor", "question_index": 19, "text": "...Something to come. But it never did. And you say in the movie, we were no longer magical kids whom were making a movie. We were just kids.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "667803724", "date": "2018-11-14", "guest": "Sandi Tan", "title": "Netflix Documentary Revisits Decades-Old Mystery Between Filmmaker And Mentor", "question_index": 20, "text": "It must have, like, really changed your identity, both your self-identity and the identity you showed to the world, when you could no longer be the person who made that film because that film didn't exist.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "667803724", "date": "2018-11-14", "guest": "Sandi Tan", "title": "Netflix Documentary Revisits Decades-Old Mystery Between Filmmaker And Mentor", "question_index": 21, "text": "My guest is Sandi Tan. Her new documentary, \"Shirkers,\" is streaming on Netflix. We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep. And so now it was back to just my representation of my outside self, which was just a boring, bland, expressionless teenager, whereas, you know, if I had \"Shirkers\" to show, which was going to be"}
{"id": "667803724", "date": "2018-11-14", "guest": "Sandi Tan", "title": "Netflix Documentary Revisits Decades-Old Mystery Between Filmmaker And Mentor", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. If you're just joining us, my guest is Sandi Tan. Her new Netflix documentary, \"Shirkers,\" is about the fiction film she made when she was 19 that she was never able to complete because her mentor Georges Cardona, who was directing the film, stole the footage and disappeared. Twenty years later, Tan received dramatic news. Georges had died. His widow found the footage. You ended up getting the canisters of film, after Georges died, sent to you by his widow. And you didn't look at the film for three years. Why did you wait that long? You wanted it so badly for so long, and then you got it. And you just kind of kept it in, I don't know, a room or a closet.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep. And so now it was back to just my representation of my outside self, which was just a boring, bland, expressionless teenager, whereas, you know, if I had \"Shirkers\" to show, which was going to be"}
{"id": "667803724", "date": "2018-11-14", "guest": "Sandi Tan", "title": "Netflix Documentary Revisits Decades-Old Mystery Between Filmmaker And Mentor", "question_index": 23, "text": "Eventually you opened the boxes, and you watched the film. What was your reaction when you saw it, when you saw the footage that you had shot?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. They came to me in seven boxes. There were 70 cans in all. And they were, to me, radioactive, these boxes. And I stacked them in the corner of my living room just, you know, out of the way so I "}
{"id": "667803724", "date": "2018-11-14", "guest": "Sandi Tan", "title": "Netflix Documentary Revisits Decades-Old Mystery Between Filmmaker And Mentor", "question_index": 24, "text": "So once you decided to make the documentary about \"Shirkers\" and finally, after all those years, you had the footage, and you could watch it and you - obviously you really wanted to and needed to hold on to it, were you paranoid about all the things that could go wrong? That it could it could burn in a fire, the lab could lose it, it could get lost in the mail? I mean, there's just, like, an endless list of things that could go wrong.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was relieved. I was sitting with a technician in Burbank who had worked on some of the Criterion Blu-rays for Douglas Sirk movies. So he's very used to, you know, vivid colors and palettes of that s"}
{"id": "667803724", "date": "2018-11-14", "guest": "Sandi Tan", "title": "Netflix Documentary Revisits Decades-Old Mystery Between Filmmaker And Mentor", "question_index": 25, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I completely was. Once we got it digitized, I think once the film began living its own, you know, life in a different form and could be contained in bytes and bits and on different hard drives a"}
{"id": "667803724", "date": "2018-11-14", "guest": "Sandi Tan", "title": "Netflix Documentary Revisits Decades-Old Mystery Between Filmmaker And Mentor", "question_index": 26, "text": "Is the documentary, which is being so well received, opening doors for you to make other movies?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And put in 10 different places in - not just in my house, but in my friends' houses and in LA - but also sent to New York to my producer Jess Levin's house. So we had it scattered around the world so "}
{"id": "667803724", "date": "2018-11-14", "guest": "Sandi Tan", "title": "Netflix Documentary Revisits Decades-Old Mystery Between Filmmaker And Mentor", "question_index": 27, "text": "Well, Sandi, I wish you great success with \"Shirkers,\" your new documentary. And I really do hope that opens the doors to making other movies because I like \"Shirkers\" so much. So congratulations on that. And thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I hope so. I definitely hope so. I mean, I think one of the things that was so satisfying and - you know, in terms of closure for me in making this film - is that it completely rekindled my passion fo"}
{"id": "667803724", "date": "2018-11-14", "guest": "Sandi Tan", "title": "Netflix Documentary Revisits Decades-Old Mystery Between Filmmaker And Mentor", "question_index": 28, "text": "Sandi Tan directed the new film \"Shirkers,\" which is now streaming on Netflix. After we take a short break, we'll hear from Steven Yeun who played Glenn on \"The Walking Dead\" and stars in the new film \"Burning.\" I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much. This was a pleasure."}
{"id": "668209008", "date": "2018-11-15", "guest": "Adam Ellick", "title": "Inside The Russian Disinformation Playbook: Exploit Tension, Sow Chaos", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR I'm Terry Gross. The Russian playbook for spreading fake news and conspiracy theories is the subject of a new three-part video series on The New York Times website titled \"Operation Infektion: Russian Disinformation: From The Cold War To Kanye.\" One episode goes back to the 1980s, when the Russians created and spread the conspiracy theory that the AIDS virus was created by the U.S. military for use as a biological weapon. The other episodes are \"The Seven Commandments Of Fake News\" and \"The Worldwide War On Truth.\" My guest, Adam Ellick, produced and co-directed the series. He's the executive producer of opinion video at The New York Times, which is a new feature on their website. Previously, he was senior international video correspondent and a reporter at the Times who focused on human rights. When he was reporting from Pakistan in 2009, he was the first journalist to tell the story of Malala and how, with her father, she fought for girls to have the right to attend school. That was three years before she was shot. In 2015, Ellick co-produced a Pulitzer Prize-winning video about an Afghan woman who was burned to death by a mob. Ellick won three Overseas Press Club awards for his coverage of Pakistan and the Arab Spring. He produced videos from North Korea one year ago. Adam Ellick, welcome to FRESH AIR. So I want to start with the conspiracy theory about the AIDS virus. And you track how this originates with Russian fake news, with Russian disinformation. So just describe the conspiracy theory for those people who don't remember it.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "668209008", "date": "2018-11-15", "guest": "Adam Ellick", "title": "Inside The Russian Disinformation Playbook: Exploit Tension, Sow Chaos", "question_index": 1, "text": "So this conspiracy theory still has some traction, doesn't it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So this is the AIDS conspiracy theory that was born out of the Soviet Union in the early 1980s. And it basically, says that the U.S. government - specifically the Pentagon - created the AIDS virus as "}
{"id": "668209008", "date": "2018-11-15", "guest": "Adam Ellick", "title": "Inside The Russian Disinformation Playbook: Exploit Tension, Sow Chaos", "question_index": 2, "text": "So this conspiracy theory that the U.S. military created the AIDS virus to kill African-Americans and gay people was created by the Russians in 1983. This was before the fall of the Soviet Union. So it's the Soviets who are creating it. Of all the conspiracy theories that they could have cooked up and tried to spread, why this one?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It does. I mean, one of the lessons in this is that a lie never truly dies. And we found in surveys as recently as 2005 that at least 30 percent of African-Americans still believe in the AIDS conspira"}
{"id": "668209008", "date": "2018-11-15", "guest": "Adam Ellick", "title": "Inside The Russian Disinformation Playbook: Exploit Tension, Sow Chaos", "question_index": 3, "text": "And politically, in 1983, when the Soviets started spreading this rumor, there was a lot of political homophobia. Like Republicans were trying to activate their base with anti-gay scare tactics. So that was like a political vulnerability that they could exploit. And, of course, racism never dies, it seems, in the U.S. So that's an easy one to exploit, too. So the first place that the Soviets planted this conspiracy theory was in a newspaper in India. That seems like an odd route to take, but it made sense to the Soviets. Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they cooked up and spread many. This is certainly not the only one. They've been doing this for decades, even before the early 1980s. But this one was incredibly successful because it did sort o"}
{"id": "668209008", "date": "2018-11-15", "guest": "Adam Ellick", "title": "Inside The Russian Disinformation Playbook: Exploit Tension, Sow Chaos", "question_index": 4, "text": "So one of the ways the Soviets kind of juiced this story was to find a scientist or a \"scientist\" in quotation marks who was willing to endorse it. So who did they find to try to give this story, like, scientific credibility? By story, I mean conspiracy theory.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I would argue it's sort of a masterful route to take. What the Soviets did - and we sort of laid out the tick-tock chronology of how this hoax went viral before the Internet ever existed. And th"}
{"id": "668209008", "date": "2018-11-15", "guest": "Adam Ellick", "title": "Inside The Russian Disinformation Playbook: Exploit Tension, Sow Chaos", "question_index": 5, "text": "So Dan Rather reports on the story. He doesn't say, this story is true, this conspiracy theory, but he does mention it. How did it get to Dan Rather, and what did Dan Rather say?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So every successful disinformation campaign needs a useful idiot. And a useful idiot is someone who's useful because they can help spread and disseminate that lie. And they also kind of have to"}
{"id": "668209008", "date": "2018-11-15", "guest": "Adam Ellick", "title": "Inside The Russian Disinformation Playbook: Exploit Tension, Sow Chaos", "question_index": 6, "text": "So when Dan Rather reported on this, he was just saying, this story is circulating. He wasn't saying it's true. Is that right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So Dan Rather was an evening TV anchor. And he repeated the story. And he sourced it to the Soviet newspaper, which was the second source when this went so-called viral. What happened in between"}
{"id": "668209008", "date": "2018-11-15", "guest": "Adam Ellick", "title": "Inside The Russian Disinformation Playbook: Exploit Tension, Sow Chaos", "question_index": 7, "text": "OK. So Putin was in the KGB during this era when KGB agents were expected to contribute disinformation as part of their job. And you say that now disinformation is his favorite tool. Why do you think it's his favorite tool?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's correct."}
{"id": "668209008", "date": "2018-11-15", "guest": "Adam Ellick", "title": "Inside The Russian Disinformation Playbook: Exploit Tension, Sow Chaos", "question_index": 8, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Adam Ellick. He's the executive producer of opinion video at The New York Times. And this is a new thing at The New York Times. And he has three videos that he just directed, a series of three videos, on disinformation and how the Russians have spread it. And you can see those on The New York Times website. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, disinformation has a lot of advantages. First of all, it's very cheap. It's certainly more affordable than tanks and aerial bombardments. It's also a long game. So the fruits of disinformation p"}
{"id": "668209008", "date": "2018-11-15", "guest": "Adam Ellick", "title": "Inside The Russian Disinformation Playbook: Exploit Tension, Sow Chaos", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is Adam Ellick, and he's the executive producer of opinion video at The New York Times. And this is a new thing at The New York Times. And he has a series of three videos about disinformation spread by the Russians. And the title of the series is \"Operation InfeKtion.\" So one of the videos is about the seven commandments of fake news. And, you know, one of the, you know, so-called rules in the playbook that you developed was, you know, wrap the fake news around a grain of truth, wrap the conspiracy theory around a grain of truth, and that leads to Russia Today, which has more truth than conspiracy theory, but it's embedded. Like, the conspiracy theories and fake news are embedded in the journalism. You say Russia Today is about 80 percent actual journalism and 20 percent disinformation, which gives the 20 percent of disinformation a lot more credibility 'cause you think, well, so much of what's on here is true. This must be true, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, disinformation has a lot of advantages. First of all, it's very cheap. It's certainly more affordable than tanks and aerial bombardments. It's also a long game. So the fruits of disinformation p"}
{"id": "668209008", "date": "2018-11-15", "guest": "Adam Ellick", "title": "Inside The Russian Disinformation Playbook: Exploit Tension, Sow Chaos", "question_index": 10, "text": "So we've been talking about conspiracy theories and fake news that have been spread by Russia and have caught on in the U.S. But as you point out in your series of videos, we're starting our own fake news now, and it's catching on quite well. President Trump has frequently described the media as, like, bad people, the enemy of the people. And he revoked Jim Acosta's White House pass, his White House press credentials. And CNN is now suing because of that. But I bring this up because there's a fake video that was spread when a White House intern at President Trump's post-midterm press conference grabbed the microphone from Jim Acosta when President Trump didn't like Acosta's question. And the video was faked in a way to make it seem like Acosta tried to karate chop this young woman's, the intern's, arm. And he did not actually do that. So it made it seem like he was being aggressive against her in a way that he wasn't. Have you learned anything about that video?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's a fascinating story, and a largely untold story of Russia Today. I mean, when Russia Today launched in the States, they were in the back seat of New York City taxicabs, and they hired peopl"}
{"id": "668209008", "date": "2018-11-15", "guest": "Adam Ellick", "title": "Inside The Russian Disinformation Playbook: Exploit Tension, Sow Chaos", "question_index": 11, "text": "That's so true. Like, every day. I mean - yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So one of the challenges in making this film is that the news sort of moved faster than we could."}
{"id": "668209008", "date": "2018-11-15", "guest": "Adam Ellick", "title": "Inside The Russian Disinformation Playbook: Exploit Tension, Sow Chaos", "question_index": 12, "text": "As you point out, the Russians used a lot of Eastern European countries to test out the Russian techniques - or before that, the Soviet techniques - for spreading conspiracy theories and fake news. And those countries in Eastern Europe have tried to protect themselves against this happening in the future. What are some of the techniques they've used that we could maybe learn from?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think one of the things this series does is it enables you to consume the news at a higher level because every single day, there would be examples of from George Soros conspiracies around the Kavana"}
{"id": "668209008", "date": "2018-11-15", "guest": "Adam Ellick", "title": "Inside The Russian Disinformation Playbook: Exploit Tension, Sow Chaos", "question_index": 13, "text": "So of all the things Eastern European countries are doing now to combat Russian disinformation, what's one of the most effective things you think they've tried?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So part of Putin's brilliance in leaning on disinformation is the many iterations of testing that he employed after he took power. And soon after he took power, he tested disinformation campaigns on h"}
{"id": "668209008", "date": "2018-11-15", "guest": "Adam Ellick", "title": "Inside The Russian Disinformation Playbook: Exploit Tension, Sow Chaos", "question_index": 14, "text": "So back during the Soviet era, before the end of communism, give us a sense of the resources that the Soviets were putting into spreading disinformation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, they're the stars when it comes to countering Russian disinformation. There's an example in our film which is just so powerful. I think on Sunday night, in Latvia on the most popular TV channe"}
{"id": "668209008", "date": "2018-11-15", "guest": "Adam Ellick", "title": "Inside The Russian Disinformation Playbook: Exploit Tension, Sow Chaos", "question_index": 15, "text": "My guest is Adam Ellick. He produced and co-directed The New York Times video series, \"Operation InfeKtion: Russian Disinformation: From The Cold War To Kanye.\" It's on the Times website. After a break, he'll tell us about a conspiracy theory about him and about making a documentary about Malala three years before she was shot. And Justin Chang will review the new film, \"Widows.\" I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When you look at the way the Kremlin operated during the Soviet Union, they had up to 15,000 agents who did disinformation campaigns. And this is at a time when the U.S. government's policy was basica"}
{"id": "668209008", "date": "2018-11-15", "guest": "Adam Ellick", "title": "Inside The Russian Disinformation Playbook: Exploit Tension, Sow Chaos", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross back with Adam Ellick, producer and co-director of a three-part video series on The New York Times website about the Russian playbook for spreading fake news and conspiracy theories. It's titled \"Operation InfeKtion: Russian Disinformation: From The Cold War To Kanye.\" Ellick is executive producer of Opinion video at The New York Times, which is a new feature on their website. Previously, he was senior international video correspondent and a reporter at the Times who focused on human rights. Among the places he's reported from are Pakistan and North Korea. So you were the target of a conspiracy theory. And that's one of the reasons why you made this three-part series about conspiracy theories and fake news. You were living and reporting from Pakistan at the time. What was the conspiracy theory about you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When you look at the way the Kremlin operated during the Soviet Union, they had up to 15,000 agents who did disinformation campaigns. And this is at a time when the U.S. government's policy was basica"}
{"id": "668209008", "date": "2018-11-15", "guest": "Adam Ellick", "title": "Inside The Russian Disinformation Playbook: Exploit Tension, Sow Chaos", "question_index": 17, "text": "Why target you like that? I mean, clearly you were - you were being hated for documenting a girl who was an activist on behalf of education for girls in Pakistan. So why make it seem like you were blowing up a school? I mean, it's the opposite of what you would do.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So when I lived in Pakistan in 2010, I made a documentary about Malala Yousufzai. It was some of the first public reporting about her - ever - when she was still a school girl. This is before the atte"}
{"id": "668209008", "date": "2018-11-15", "guest": "Adam Ellick", "title": "Inside The Russian Disinformation Playbook: Exploit Tension, Sow Chaos", "question_index": 18, "text": "I mean, these things are really serious. You have to take that really seriously. How did you protect yourself after that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think anti-American conspiracies in Pakistan are mainstream. They're not fringe whatsoever. And any time that there is chaos - internal chaos - in the country, such as the terrorism threat that they"}
{"id": "668209008", "date": "2018-11-15", "guest": "Adam Ellick", "title": "Inside The Russian Disinformation Playbook: Exploit Tension, Sow Chaos", "question_index": 19, "text": "How effective is facts against a conspiracy theory? Because a lot of people who believe conspiracy theories are kind of immune to facts. Once they believe a conspiracy theory, it's hard to talk them out of it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's really interesting having made this film because we looked at what the U.S. government's response was to disinformation campaigns, like - like so many of these around the world. And in the "}
{"id": "668209008", "date": "2018-11-15", "guest": "Adam Ellick", "title": "Inside The Russian Disinformation Playbook: Exploit Tension, Sow Chaos", "question_index": 20, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Adam Ellick. And he's been a reporter for The New York Times for years. Now he's the executive producer of Opinion video at The New York Times. And he just directed a three-part series called \"Operation InfeKtion.\" It's about how disinformation spreads. And it focuses on how Russians spread disinformation and conspiracy theories. We're going to take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, if you're looking for a silver-bullet solution in how to extinguish a lie, I'm sorry to report that there isn't one. You can't make this stuff go away. But fighting disinformation is an exhaus"}
{"id": "668209008", "date": "2018-11-15", "guest": "Adam Ellick", "title": "Inside The Russian Disinformation Playbook: Exploit Tension, Sow Chaos", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Adam Ellick, whose been a reporter for The New York Times for years now. He's the executive producer of opinion video at The New York Times. And he has a new three-part series that he directed called \"Operation InfeKtion.\" It's about how conspiracy theories and fake news are spread, including stories about how the Russians spread it and the playbook that they seem to follow. So I want to get back to doing a video documentary about Malala before she was shot, when she was starting to be an activist on behalf of education for girls in Pakistan. How old was she when you spent six months with her and her father documenting this story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, if you're looking for a silver-bullet solution in how to extinguish a lie, I'm sorry to report that there isn't one. You can't make this stuff go away. But fighting disinformation is an exhaus"}
{"id": "668209008", "date": "2018-11-15", "guest": "Adam Ellick", "title": "Inside The Russian Disinformation Playbook: Exploit Tension, Sow Chaos", "question_index": 22, "text": "What was the nature of Malala's activism when she was 9 or 10 and you started reporting on her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I met Malala when she was either 9 or had just turned 10 years old. And I was the first reporter to tell her story publicly. She was known basically as an ordinary schoolgirl, at the time, whose fa"}
{"id": "668209008", "date": "2018-11-15", "guest": "Adam Ellick", "title": "Inside The Russian Disinformation Playbook: Exploit Tension, Sow Chaos", "question_index": 23, "text": "Where were you when you learned that she was shot?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, at that time, the Taliban were threatening to close schools for girls. And Malala and her family were speaking up at rallies and press conferences and trying to raise their voice in the public, "}
{"id": "668209008", "date": "2018-11-15", "guest": "Adam Ellick", "title": "Inside The Russian Disinformation Playbook: Exploit Tension, Sow Chaos", "question_index": 24, "text": "When you were reporting on Malala and her father a few years before she was shot and nearly killed, you had warned her father that this story might be too dangerous in the sense that, you know, if they were out there in your reporting that they might get hurt. It would make them vulnerable. And the father said that he wanted you to continue reporting. And you said that this was, like, the only time that you warned a source that it might be too risky to proceed with the story. When Malala was shot, did you feel like making her story famous, you know, in America and around the world put her in more jeopardy? Did you feel - did you feel guilty about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was actually in Boston on a sabbatical, a one-year sabbatical from the Times, back in school for a year. And I saw her name trending on Twitter one morning. And then I quickly read the news and basi"}
{"id": "668209008", "date": "2018-11-15", "guest": "Adam Ellick", "title": "Inside The Russian Disinformation Playbook: Exploit Tension, Sow Chaos", "question_index": 25, "text": "When it comes to disinformation, you say, you know, it had been you know, like, Russians versus us or the Soviets versus us. But now it's kind of us versus us because Americans are starting more and more conspiracy theories and spreading disinformation on social media. Do you think it's even worse now because it's us versus us in addition to them versus us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, my emotions at that time and even today, like many turning points in life, are complicated and mixed and tangled. I definitely feel guilty about the fact that I made that decision along with h"}
{"id": "668209008", "date": "2018-11-15", "guest": "Adam Ellick", "title": "Inside The Russian Disinformation Playbook: Exploit Tension, Sow Chaos", "question_index": 26, "text": "Well, if the press is now the enemy of the people, as the president describes the press, and people look to the press for facts and for information, for truthful reporting and the president is discrediting the press, is that, in a way, the ultimate example of us against us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's a lot worse now. I think during the Cold War, it was us versus them. And the Soviets had a very specific disinformation strategy, which was to demonize the West. We were enemy No. 1, target"}
{"id": "668209008", "date": "2018-11-15", "guest": "Adam Ellick", "title": "Inside The Russian Disinformation Playbook: Exploit Tension, Sow Chaos", "question_index": 27, "text": "Adam Ellick, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And it's also the ultimate example of Putin's greatest triumph, which is the long game that he's been playing for many, many years, since he took power. And I think that strategy was planted long"}
{"id": "668209008", "date": "2018-11-15", "guest": "Adam Ellick", "title": "Inside The Russian Disinformation Playbook: Exploit Tension, Sow Chaos", "question_index": 28, "text": "Adam Ellick produced and co-directed the three-part New York Times video series \"Operation InfeKtion: Russian Disinformation: From The Cold War To Kanye.\" It's on the New York Times website. After we take a short break, Justin Chang will review Steve McQueen's new film \"Widows,\" starring Viola Davis. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "668249279", "date": "2018-11-16", "guest": "Jeff Guinn", "title": "40 Years Later, Jonestown Offers A Lesson In Demagoguery", "question_index": 0, "text": "Jeff Guinn, welcome back to FRESH AIR. I'm not going to assume that people know much about the Peoples Temple or Jim Jones, so can you just give us a brief overview of what this cult was? And I think it's fair to describe it as a cult.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. Sunday marks 40 years since the Jonestown massacre in Guyana in which cult leader Jim Jones convinced 900 followers to commit mass suicide by dr"}
{"id": "668249279", "date": "2018-11-16", "guest": "Jeff Guinn", "title": "40 Years Later, Jonestown Offers A Lesson In Demagoguery", "question_index": 1, "text": "But there was a real dark side to this. You're talking about the idealistic side, but the reality of what was going on is that he claimed to be God. He had total control over people's lives. He had them donate everything that they had and moved them or moved those willing to follow him - and it was just, like, under a thousand people who came with him - to the jungle of Guyana, where there was no way out. They carved out - I mean, they carved out a little part of the jungle for their village. I want to cut to the end of the Jim Jones story, and then we'll tell the whole story in more detail. The story ends with him not only assuming complete control of their lives but complete control of their deaths. Describe the death that he orchestrated for everybody in his cult who was living with him in the jungle in Guyana.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Jim Jones originally organized Peoples Temple as a storefront church in Indianapolis in the late 1940s and early 1950s. It became one of the first major mixed-race churches in that part of the country"}
{"id": "668249279", "date": "2018-11-16", "guest": "Jeff Guinn", "title": "40 Years Later, Jonestown Offers A Lesson In Demagoguery", "question_index": 2, "text": "So the expression about drinking - like, he drank the Kool-Aid, like, he went along with it comes from Jonestown. But it wasn't Kool-Aid. It was another kind of punch.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "By the end, in November 1978, Jones' attitude towards his followers had changed. In the early stages of his ministry, when actually great things were often being accomplished, he thought of himself as"}
{"id": "668249279", "date": "2018-11-16", "guest": "Jeff Guinn", "title": "40 Years Later, Jonestown Offers A Lesson In Demagoguery", "question_index": 3, "text": "Right. So he studied different toxins so that people could drink this punch and die. And he decided on cyanide. Why did he choose cyanide?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Flavor Aid was a cheap Kool-Aid knockoff. And in Jonestown, they lived only on the basics. Kool-Aid would have been too much of a luxury."}
{"id": "668249279", "date": "2018-11-16", "guest": "Jeff Guinn", "title": "40 Years Later, Jonestown Offers A Lesson In Demagoguery", "question_index": 4, "text": "So there is actually a tape, about a 40-minute tape of the final chapter in the Peoples Temple's history when he's convincing his followers that it's time to commit this revolutionary act that's not suicide. It's a revolutionary act. And you hear him convincing people that they need to go along and drink this punch. And then he says, are there any dissenters? And some people say, well, you told us that we could have a home in Russia if things fail here. So, like, let's try the Russia option. And he says, no, no, no, that's not going to work. And he explains why that's no longer going to work. And then you hear other people, like, saying that they don't want to die. But then you hear people - and we'll hear some of this in the excerpt we're going to hear - you hear people thanking him and praising him and saying that they owe their lives to him. So let's hear some of the final moments in this surviving tape just before the members of this cult drink the poisoned punch.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For months before November 18, Jones had been studying, trying to decide the best means of committing revolutionary suicide. He and his henchmen, the folks that he would talk to most about these thing"}
{"id": "668249279", "date": "2018-11-16", "guest": "Jeff Guinn", "title": "40 Years Later, Jonestown Offers A Lesson In Demagoguery", "question_index": 5, "text": "So that's some of the final moments of the Jonestown cult and of the so-called death tape. And, you know, there's parts of this tape where you hear babies crying in the background and you know soon, like, they're going to be dead. But I think it must give a sense of how devoted these people were to him that they're about to kill themselves because he said they should. And they're thanking him - thank you, Dad.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Really doesn\u2019t want to. Telling me - all he\u2019s doing, if they will tell him - assure these - can some people assure these children of the relaxation of stepping over to the next plane? So set an exampl"}
{"id": "668249279", "date": "2018-11-16", "guest": "Jeff Guinn", "title": "40 Years Later, Jonestown Offers A Lesson In Demagoguery", "question_index": 6, "text": "And the congressman you refer to is Congressman Leo Ryan, who had come to investigate what was actually going on in Jonestown. And after seeing what was going on, on the airstrip about to return, he was shot by one of the men that Jim Jones had sent, one of the armed men he'd sent to the airstrip. So were they just following Jones' orders, the shooters?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One of the things that's hardest for us to understand now looking back almost 40 years is how almost 900 people, actually a few over 900, could have followed what appear to be ridiculous orders from a"}
{"id": "668249279", "date": "2018-11-16", "guest": "Jeff Guinn", "title": "40 Years Later, Jonestown Offers A Lesson In Demagoguery", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, very much so."}
{"id": "668249279", "date": "2018-11-16", "guest": "Jeff Guinn", "title": "40 Years Later, Jonestown Offers A Lesson In Demagoguery", "question_index": 8, "text": "But as you write in the book, it wasn't really a choice for the people remaining at Jonestown whether to drink this toxic punch or not because there were gunmen standing all around them who were going to kill them. So that was the choice Jones gave them, right? Like, drink it voluntarily or you'll be shot to death.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Jones had determined the night before that he couldn't let Ryan and a few people from the temple who'd wanted to defect get away. His thought was, if you let a few people go, then more and more are go"}
{"id": "668249279", "date": "2018-11-16", "guest": "Jeff Guinn", "title": "40 Years Later, Jonestown Offers A Lesson In Demagoguery", "question_index": 9, "text": "My guest is Jeff Guinn, author of the new book \"The Road To Jonestown: Jim Jones And Peoples Temple.\" We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Essentially, Jones left his followers no choice. Even those who protested, if they didn't voluntarily drink the punch, they'd be held down and injected. He was the general. He had made the decision th"}
{"id": "668249279", "date": "2018-11-16", "guest": "Jeff Guinn", "title": "40 Years Later, Jonestown Offers A Lesson In Demagoguery", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jeff Guinn, author of the new book \"The Road To Jonestown: Jim Jones And Peoples Temple.\" It's about the cult leader Jim Jones who led his followers to commit mass suicide. Guinn says Jones had the classic traits of a demagogue. Well, as you point out, some demagogues appeal to people's darker nature, like Hitler or Charles Manson. But initially, Jones really appealed to people's ideals - social justice, integration, civil rights. And so people, like, initially followed him because he seemed to be an idealistic man. He became politically connected. People admired the work that he was doing. He helped integrate the Indianapolis schools. But at the same time, he was a con man pretty early on. He became a Methodist minister. His wife was Methodist, and he briefly took on her religion. Then he became an itinerant preacher and psychic and faith healer. Let's get to some of that because this is where he really became a con man early on. During his early, like, healings, what did he do to convince people that he was performing these miraculous healing acts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Essentially, Jones left his followers no choice. Even those who protested, if they didn't voluntarily drink the punch, they'd be held down and injected. He was the general. He had made the decision th"}
{"id": "668249279", "date": "2018-11-16", "guest": "Jeff Guinn", "title": "40 Years Later, Jonestown Offers A Lesson In Demagoguery", "question_index": 11, "text": "My reading of your book - and you can tell me if this is how you see it - is that beneath all of his idealism - maybe not initially, but certainly fairly soon - beneath all that idealism was this cynicism that he knew how to play people. He developed a very large African-American following and said something - I'm just going to paraphrase here - but said something to another of his followers that if you keep them poor and hungry, they'll always stay with you, you know, because there'll be a need.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Jim Jones was a tremendous performer. Instinctively, he understood the things that he would need to do in front of a crowd, not just to get their attention but to hold it and be remembered by them. He"}
{"id": "668249279", "date": "2018-11-16", "guest": "Jeff Guinn", "title": "40 Years Later, Jonestown Offers A Lesson In Demagoguery", "question_index": 12, "text": "Like some other demagogues, Jim Jones became very obsessed with sex. And it's a kind of interesting, revealing part of the story that I want to talk with you about. His wife, Marceline, had severe back problems which were worsened by pregnancy and childbirth. And so she could not participate in a full sexual life. And he used that as an opportunity to take on a mistress, a member of the cult. And then after that, more mistresses and eventually kind of whatever women he wanted, you know, in the cult. What did he use to justify that to himself and to the women?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. Let's get back to Terry's interview recorded last year with Jeff Guinn about the cult leader Jim Jones. Guinn's book, \"The Road To Jonestown,\" i"}
{"id": "668249279", "date": "2018-11-16", "guest": "Jeff Guinn", "title": "40 Years Later, Jonestown Offers A Lesson In Demagoguery", "question_index": 13, "text": "Let's talk a little bit about Jim Jones' paranoia and delusions. He started taking drugs. What kind of drugs helped feed the paranoid side of his personality?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's sad. And it's wrong. But it's also true that throughout history, and certainly up to the modern day, men in positions of power take advantage of women who need their support in some way or anothe"}
{"id": "668249279", "date": "2018-11-16", "guest": "Jeff Guinn", "title": "40 Years Later, Jonestown Offers A Lesson In Demagoguery", "question_index": 14, "text": "Give us another example of something that made you gasp.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Jones' paranoia is actually rooted in his childhood, where he had a mother who believed that she was reincarnated through many lives and that in a vision it was revealed to her that she would give bir"}
{"id": "668249279", "date": "2018-11-16", "guest": "Jeff Guinn", "title": "40 Years Later, Jonestown Offers A Lesson In Demagoguery", "question_index": 15, "text": "So did any of Jim Jones' children drink the poison punch and kill themselves?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Marceline Jones, Jim Jones' long-suffering wife, by every account a wonderful woman dedicated to social change, gradually frozen out by him, first for some of her physical problems and later because s"}
{"id": "668249279", "date": "2018-11-16", "guest": "Jeff Guinn", "title": "40 Years Later, Jonestown Offers A Lesson In Demagoguery", "question_index": 16, "text": "And how many of his children survived?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Jim Jones' adopted daughter Agnes and his adopted son Lew both drank punch that day and died."}
{"id": "668249279", "date": "2018-11-16", "guest": "Jeff Guinn", "title": "40 Years Later, Jonestown Offers A Lesson In Demagoguery", "question_index": 17, "text": "And what about his wife, Marceline?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "At the time, Jim Jones had one daughter, Suzanne, who was estranged back in America. Three of his sons, Stephan, Jimmy and Tim, were with the Jonestown basketball team in Georgetown, the capital 150 m"}
{"id": "668249279", "date": "2018-11-16", "guest": "Jeff Guinn", "title": "40 Years Later, Jonestown Offers A Lesson In Demagoguery", "question_index": 18, "text": "Did she drink the punch or was she shot?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Marceline died that day in Jonestown screaming at Jim Jones, you can't do this, you can't do this. On the death tape, you hear him saying, Mother, Mother, Mother, don't be like this. He was talking to"}
{"id": "668249279", "date": "2018-11-16", "guest": "Jeff Guinn", "title": "40 Years Later, Jonestown Offers A Lesson In Demagoguery", "question_index": 19, "text": "You talked to one or more of Jim Jones' surviving children. Can you share some of the insights that they gave you about his personality and what side of himself he showed to them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Her autopsy indicates that she drank the punch. She probably, at some point, figured there's no sense, I can't stop it. And she was an exhausted woman. She was ready to lay down and sleep."}
{"id": "668249279", "date": "2018-11-16", "guest": "Jeff Guinn", "title": "40 Years Later, Jonestown Offers A Lesson In Demagoguery", "question_index": 20, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Jeff Guinn, author of the new book \"The Road To Jonestown: Jim Jones And The Peoples Temple.\" We're going to take a short break, and then we'll be back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Stephen Jones, Jim Jones' only biological son, communicated with me a couple times by email and referred me to some things he had written. But I spent a considerable amount of time with Jim Jones Jr.,"}
{"id": "668249279", "date": "2018-11-16", "guest": "Jeff Guinn", "title": "40 Years Later, Jonestown Offers A Lesson In Demagoguery", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Jeff Guinn, the author of the new book \"The Road To Jonestown: Jim Jones And Peoples Temple.\" And it's about the cult leader Jim Jones, who claimed to be God and claimed to be, you know, Lenin reincarnated, developed this large cult following, led about 1,000 followers to the jungle of Guyana, where they built their own settlement. And it ended with him basically forcing them to drink cyanide-laced fruit punch and commit suicide because he knew his number was up, and he was taking everyone down with him. You said that you spoke to people who actually were on the site of this mass suicide after it happened. What did they find?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Stephen Jones, Jim Jones' only biological son, communicated with me a couple times by email and referred me to some things he had written. But I spent a considerable amount of time with Jim Jones Jr.,"}
{"id": "668249279", "date": "2018-11-16", "guest": "Jeff Guinn", "title": "40 Years Later, Jonestown Offers A Lesson In Demagoguery", "question_index": 22, "text": "I just keep thinking that Jim Jones asked parents to take their lives of their children, to give them cyanide.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Guyanese troops that came in the next morning thought they were going to be facing armed revolutionaries. They guessed there might be a hundred or more Jonestown men armed with rifles waiting for "}
{"id": "668249279", "date": "2018-11-16", "guest": "Jeff Guinn", "title": "40 Years Later, Jonestown Offers A Lesson In Demagoguery", "question_index": 23, "text": "So you've been kind of living in the mind of Jim Jones for years as you researched this. And so when you look around you now living in the present, do you see any echoes of Jim Jones?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The way Jones explained it, if you don't take your children with you to what he called the other side, stepping over, what will happen is the soldiers will come in and capture them. And then they will"}
{"id": "668249279", "date": "2018-11-16", "guest": "Jeff Guinn", "title": "40 Years Later, Jonestown Offers A Lesson In Demagoguery", "question_index": 24, "text": "Thank you so much for coming back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The things I've learned writing this book scare the hell out of me in terms of today's America. And as social media continues to expand, more and more people are getting unfiltered information that th"}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guests are brothers Joel and Ethan Coen, who wrote and directed such films as \"Blood Simple,\" \"Fargo,\" \"O Brother, Where Art Thou?\", \"No Country For Old Men,\" \"A Serious Man\" and \"True Grit.\" Their 2016 film \"Hail, Caesar!\" was a comic homage to Hollywood in the late '40s and '50s, including the biblical epics and musicals the studios produced. Their new movie, \"The Ballad Of Buster Scruggs,\" is an homage to Westerns. The film is an anthology of six stories, sometimes comic, involving staples of the Western genre - a singing cowboy, gunfights, a wagon train, stagecoaches, hangings, a grizzled prospector panning for gold. But what happens within each story is typically not what you'd expect from a classic Western. Reviewing the film in The New York Times, A.O. Scott wrote, the brothers have tended to treat whimsy and fatalism as sides of the same coin. The jokes that the universe plays on hapless human creatures may be cruel, but they're also funny. And the Coens are skilled and wily metaphysical pranksters. Let's start with the opening voiceover from the first story in the film, in which singing cowboy Buster Scruggs is riding through the desert on his horse. His hands are not on the reins. They're wrapped around his guitar because he's a singing cowboy. Buster Scruggs, played by Tim Blake Nelson, sings and introduces himself to us.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 1, "text": "Joel and Ethan Coen, welcome to FRESH AIR. Thanks for coming back on our show. So how did this movie come together? Like, how did you end up stringing together several different stories of the Old West in one film?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Buster Scruggs) Maybe some of y'all have heard of me. Buster Scruggs, known to some as the San Saba Songbird. I got other handles, nicknames, appellations and cognomens, but this one here I don't "}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 2, "text": "Westerns usually end with the surviving good guys vanquishing the bad guys and restoring order to the town. But your stories don't end that way in this Western anthology. Death can come suddenly, no matter who you are. Did you ever ask yourself, while you were writing and directing it, if you think you might have survived living in the Old West? Like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Vincent Gallo self-financed it - I think his last movie, and he decided not to release it because he didn't want to - and I think this is a verbatim quote. He didn't want to expose it to the \"dark ene"}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 3, "text": "How long you think you would've lasted?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Vincent Gallo self-financed it - I think his last movie, and he decided not to release it because he didn't want to - and I think this is a verbatim quote. He didn't want to expose it to the \"dark ene"}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 4, "text": "That's funny. So each story is told as if it were a short story from a collection of Western stories. In one of the stories, it's set in a stagecoach. And we slowly - it's like a series of monologues within the stagecoach in which each character tells us something about who they are and what they believe. And one of the characters, played by Brendan Gleeson - without giving much away about who they really are - one of the characters, played by Brendan Gleeson, sings a version of the \"Streets Of Laredo\" that I've never heard before. The lyric I'm familiar with is a song set in the Old West where the guy singing the song sees a young cowboy in the streets of Laredo who's wrapped up in white linen as cold as the clay. And the young cowboy explains that he's done wrong. He's been shot in the chest, and he knows he's dying. And he instructs the other man how he wants to be buried and what to tell his mother. Gleeson sings a different version of it. This version is sung by a man killed by his lover. I just want to play some of that song. So this is Brendan Gleeson.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We just barely survived living in the Midwest."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 5, "text": "I think that's pretty beautiful. Did you know he could sing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Irishman, singing) As I was a walking down by the Lock, as I was walking one morning of late, who should I spy but my old dear comrade, wrapped up in flannel, so hard is his fate. I boldly stepped"}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 6, "text": "The use of the word disordered is so interesting in it. Like, what did she say? She disordered my body and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And said, you know, take a crack at this. And Brendan sent it back, and we thought, oh, beautiful. We knew that we wanted this song sung in the sequence, but whether or not it was actually going to be"}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yeah. That's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Had she but told me before she disordered me."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 8, "text": "Right. I didn't realize it was about syphilis or some STD.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I might have got pills - salts or pills of white mercury."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 9, "text": "I was trying to figure out what the white mercury pills were about. Like, those are not pills we take anymore.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yeah. Yeah. So and, you know - and you bookend the whole movie with an instrumental version of the \"Streets Of Laredo.\" So it is one of, like, the classic death songs about the Old West. Is that why you chose it? Because there is...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Other ways of treating syphilis."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 11, "text": "...So much death in the movie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 12, "text": "OK. Stupid question - did you ever hear the Allan Sherman parody version of \"Streets Of Laredo\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's a, you know, beautiful, elegiac song about death, and it's familiar to almost everyone - at least the melody is. But it was interesting to us to, you know, have it make its appearance in th"}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 13, "text": "Called \"Streets Of Miami\" - it's really horrible.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 14, "text": "Do you remember the lyrics?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No - yes, he was an absolute giant in our youth."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 15, "text": "He stays at the Fontainebleau,", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't remember the \"Streets Of Miami\" very - no, not really."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 16, "text": ", the Fontainebleau hotel. He's taking a trip with his - instead of, like, a sidekick or something, it's his, like, partner, Sammy. It has the line - and paid to the firm $60 a day. No, no. I mean charged to the firm $60 a day.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't remember the \"Streets Of Miami\" very - no, not really."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 17, "text": "'Cause he's expensing the trip", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sixty dollars a day."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 18, "text": ". OK. Let's take a short break here. Then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guests are Joel and Ethan Coen, and they have a new movie that's a Western anthology. It's a series of stories set in the Old West, and it's called, \"The Ballad Of Buster Scruggs.\" We're going to take a short break then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sixty dollars a day."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guests are Joel and Ethan Coen, and their new movie, which is now streaming on Netflix, is called, \"The Ballad Of Buster Scruggs.\" It's an anthology of stories set in the Old West. So another story I want to talk about from your film takes place on a wagon train. And that's another trope of Westerns. Why did you want to do a wagon train story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sixty dollars a day."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 20, "text": "Well, sure. 'Cause you have, like, nearly - looks like, like, a mile of wagons with people walking alongside of them and there's, like, horses and oxen", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it really was our, sort of at a certain point, rummaging around in the Western genre, thinking, well, we haven't, you know - and thinking about the sort of subgenres. Well, we haven't done a w"}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 21, "text": "and it's, like, a lot.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it really was our, sort of at a certain point, rummaging around in the Western genre, thinking, well, we haven't, you know - and thinking about the sort of subgenres. Well, we haven't done a w"}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And the problem is that you have, you know, essentially, sort of a half-a-mile-long chain of wagons, and the camera's in a certain position. And when you say action, the first wagon moves. And 1"}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 23, "text": "Well, I remember after we talked about your movie \"Inside Llewyn Davis,\" where there was a cat who was a co-star of the film. You said you would never work with a cat again. And so now you've put yourself in the position with this film of working with, like, oxen and horses, a dog. There's an owl.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...The last wagon can start moving, and you finally got everything going together. And then one oxen team will decide to cut sharply over to the right and ruin the shot. So you then have a choice, whi"}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 24, "text": "But it seems to me like you set yourself up for trouble.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, but no cats."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 25, "text": "Had you forgotten how hard it was just to work with a cat?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, we did."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 26, "text": "How many wranglers did you have working on this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. There are 20 wagons. It's easy to write."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, Travis, the oxen wrangler. Great guy. But, you know - so I asked him if the oxen could - I don't know what it was - come to a mark and stop or something. And he - it was something that seemed kind"}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 28, "text": "Are oxen responsive? I mean, I've never worked with an ox.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thought, man, that's - yeah. Why should that be different than anything else on a movie?"}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 29, "text": "You know, the dog is a staple on a lot of westerns. Of course, there is, like, \"Lassie,\" which isn't a Western. But Lassie's always kind of, like, rescuing people. Rin Tin Tin - always rescuing people. Then there's, like, the beloved family dog in a lot of Westerns who's like the trusty companion. In your story, there's a little dog who accompanies this brother and sister on the wagon train. And it's the kind of dog that you usually think of as an apartment dog.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They got a hell of a neural network there. It takes a while to travel."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 30, "text": "And it's the kind of dog you - like, you're walking down the street. And it's like this little dog who's kind of, like, really barking loudly and neurotically", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They got a hell of a neural network there. It takes a while to travel."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 31, "text": ". And so you've got this, like, little apartment dog on the wagon train. And people are complaining about the barking almost as if they live in an apartment building, and the dog's being really annoying. Were you trying to, like, subvert the Western dog?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They got a hell of a neural network there. It takes a while to travel."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 32, "text": "Does not", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, we weren't thinking about the Western dog, although I know you mean. There is a Western dog. But it is interesting what you say about how the dog classically rescues people. And not to give anythi"}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 33, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, we weren't thinking about the Western dog, although I know you mean. There is a Western dog. But it is interesting what you say about how the dog classically rescues people. And not to give anythi"}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 34, "text": "I want to play some dialogue from this wagon train sequence. And one of the leading characters in it is a young woman who's gone on the Oregon Trail with this wagon train with her brother. And they're both - oh, I don't know - probably in their 20s, early 20s. And he was the only family she had. And he dies of some horrible cough early on. So she's left on her own, and she owes the person who's driving the wagon all this money that her brother promised. But her brother didn't leave any money. And she was supposed to marry someone who her brother said was his business partner if her business partner found her, you know, attractive enough. So she's just totally lost. And one of the two wagon masters is being very helpful to her. And in one scene, he says to her that he has, you know, a crackpot idea that might be helpful to her. And so she asks him about it. And this is Zoe Kazan as the young woman, Bill Heck as the wagon master.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The journey - yeah, it was kind of interesting because the - you know, it's a traveling group of however many people - you know, scores of people probably, not hundreds. And they were just a totally l"}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 35, "text": "The dialogue that you wrote for this is so much more formal and now old-fashion sounding than the way people speak now. I don't wish to slight my brother's memory. I submit this in respect. How did you get into the language? Did writing \"True Grit\" help with that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Billy Knapp) Well, the idea then is this, and I submit it in respect, Ms. Longabaugh. I propose to assume your brother's debt to the hired boy and to - to ask you to marry me."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 36, "text": "Charles Portis wrote the novel \"True Grit\" that your movie \"True Grit\" was adapted from.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's another thing that Bill Heck says in that scene, which also came from the same source that we were talking about a minute ago when we were talking about the dog - these firsthand accounts, whi"}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 37, "text": "More with the Coen brothers after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Charles Portis had clearly done a lot of research, read a lot of literature - well, literature - ephemeral literature of the period, like the newspapers, magazines. And he was - I mean, that - "}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 38, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with the screenwriting, directing and producing duo, brothers Joel and Ethan Coen. Their films include \"Blood Simple,\" \"Fargo,\" \"O Brother, Where Art Thou?\" \"No Country For Old Men,\" \"A Serious Man,\" \"True Grit\" and \"Hail, Caesar!\" - a satirical film about Hollywood in the late 40s and 50s. We'll talk about \"Hail, Caesar!\" a little later. Their new film \"The Ballad Of Buster Scruggs\" is a sometimes comic homage to Westerns. It's an anthology of six stories set in the West. It's showing in theaters and streaming on Netflix. So this was shot in video instead of film. Is that right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Charles Portis had clearly done a lot of research, read a lot of literature - well, literature - ephemeral literature of the period, like the newspapers, magazines. And he was - I mean, that - "}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 39, "text": "Digitally. Digitally, I should say.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Video - well, digitally."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 40, "text": "Yeah, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 41, "text": "Right. Were you used to shooting digitally?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Video, not - we didn't go quite that far."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 42, "text": "And is this because it's streaming on Netflix?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, this is the first thing we shot not on film - first time for us."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 43, "text": "Does it change how you watch rushes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was an experiment, really. We hadn't done it before. And, you know, it's becoming overwhelmingly the norm. And this seemed like a reasonable movie to give it a try. You know, there were 800 visual "}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 44, "text": "What's the difference?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very much so."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 45, "text": "Is this because, like - why are you calling it just information when you're shooting digitally...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As Joel is saying, that's kind of - it makes watching dailies pointless because you haven't decided anything. You don't - you haven't - you haven't - nobody actually took a picture. They just captured"}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 46, "text": "...As opposed to having a look? Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, because what you're doing is you're..."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 47, "text": "I've always wondered, though, how directors feel confident that they have a good shot and a good take when they actually haven't seen the film itself.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because boy, there's so much latitude in what you're capturing, you can make it look like pretty much anything later in terms of contrast, in terms of color, in terms of pretty much everything in term"}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 48, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, that also gets into the - it gets into why DPs are so fond of digital photography. Most of them will say - if you ask them the difference, they'll say they can sleep at night..."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 49, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guests are Joel and Ethan Coen. And they wrote and directed the new movie \"The Ballad Of Buster Scruggs,\" which is an anthology of stories set in the Old West. We'll be back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because they actually know what they're getting on the set. And - but from my point of view, it's - that's not necessarily a good thing."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 50, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guests are Joel and Ethan Coen. They wrote and directed the new movie \"The Ballad Of Buster Scruggs,\" which is an anthology of stories set in the Old West. And it's now streaming on Netflix. I wanted to talk with you about the movie that you made before \"The Ballad Of Buster Scruggs.\" But I never got the chance to do it, so I'm going to take this opportunity to talk to you a little bit about it now. And it's a movie from - what? - two years ago called \"Hail, Caesar!\" And it's also, like, an homage to movies in the same way that, like, your new movie is an homage to Westerns. This is set in Hollywood, in a Hollywood studio where there's an epic being made called \"Hail, Caesar!\" And it's a biblical epic starring George Clooney. And George Clooney is a Roman who is becoming a believer of Jesus in Jesus' time. But while he's shooting the movie - while the George Clooney character is shooting the movie, he's kidnapped by Hollywood screenwriters who are communists and want to destroy Hollywood because it's a capitalist system. And they give him \"Das Kapital\" to read, Karl Marx's critique of the capitalist system. Herbert Marcuse the philosopher is, like, one of the characters in this who's trying to indoctrinate him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because they actually know what they're getting on the set. And - but from my point of view, it's - that's not necessarily a good thing."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 51, "text": "And in this scene, the George Clooney character - the actor is telling a studio exec, played by Josh Brolin, about everything he's learned about how, you know, destructive and exploitative the Hollywood system is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because they actually know what they're getting on the set. And - but from my point of view, it's - that's not necessarily a good thing."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 52, "text": "That slapping around you heard was the Josh Brolin character, the studio exec, slapping around George Clooney's character, the actor. You know, it's as if this story is based on what the people who were blacklisting actors actually believed or said they believed about the dangers of communism - you know, that these communist sympathizers", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Eddie Mannix) You're damn right you won't - not as long as I run this dump. Baird, go out, and be a star."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 53, "text": "or screenwriters - they're going to, like, overturn the studio system in the country. And they're going to, like, kidnap you and brainwash you. And we'll all be destroyed. It's kind of hilarious in that respect. Did you think of it that way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Eddie Mannix) You're damn right you won't - not as long as I run this dump. Baird, go out, and be a star."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 54, "text": "Right, yes. Have you met any of the blacklisted writers? Have you read a lot about the blacklisting era and the fears that were behind it, the fears that ruined so many lives, the fears that were spread, you know, around people who weren't even communists?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Who are godless."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 55, "text": "OK, let's take a short break here. Then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guests are Joel and Ethan Coen. And they have a new movie that's a Western anthology. It's a series of stories set in the Old West. And it's called \"The Ballad Of Buster Scruggs.\" We're going to take a short break, then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, you know, we were having a little bit of fun with that aspect of it."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 56, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with filmmaking brothers Joel and Ethan Coen. Their new film, \"The Ballad Of Buster Scruggs,\" is streaming on Netflix. When we left off, we were talking about their 2016 film, \"Hail, Caesar!\", which is set in Hollywood in the late 1940s and '50s and is a satire about the studio system, musicals, biblical epics and blacklisting. George Clooney plays an actor who's starring in a biblical epic set in the time of Jesus. I want to play another scene from this sequence. So George Clooney and his friend, Gracchus...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, you know, we were having a little bit of fun with that aspect of it."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 57, "text": "...Are in a crowd at the feet of Jesus, who's being crucified. And George Clooney, a Roman who has become a follower of Jesus, a believer, is making this impassioned speech about Jesus. So here is George Clooney from \"Hail, Caesar!\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, you know, we were having a little bit of fun with that aspect of it."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 58, "text": "I just can't hear that scene too many times.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Gracchus) Got most of them, man. You're all right."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 59, "text": "Breaks me up every time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Gracchus) Got most of them, man. You're all right."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 60, "text": "Among the things I love about it is that it is a very stirring speech, but it's also, like, such a Hollywood cliche the way it's done.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Gracchus) Got most of them, man. You're all right."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 61, "text": "Did you have fun writing that - like, writing, like, biblical epic language?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just to identify everybody, George Clooney was giving the stirring speech, and Clancy Brown was his skeptical Roman sidekick."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 62, "text": "I've noticed that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, you know - we've seen those movies, too. Let me tell you most of those movies are pretty boring and pretty stiff."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 63, "text": "Like, if you watch them back, there's, like, so much boring dialogue in a lot of them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's..."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 64, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, so we tried to recreate that really boring dialogue."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 65, "text": "I still love watching \"The Ten Commandments,\" though. I kind of grew up on that film because it was always on TV around Easter or Passover.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think we did pretty good."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 66, "text": "So how did you prepare yourself to write biblical, epic speech?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he's get a good beard, Chuck."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 67, "text": "So anyway, so you felt you didn't have to go back and rewatch them, rewatch the biblical...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We kind of remember - as you do. You know, you remember that stuff. And that style - it's not like you really have to prepare. You've kind of sat through enough of it."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 68, "text": "Oh, you did?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no, we did rewatch them."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 69, "text": "Because you needed to shoot them as if the camera was underwater. You need to see their size and their bottoms as they're submerged.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. \"Ben-Hur\" has the big water battle. And, you know, it's this idea of this funny exercise when you're doing a movie like \"Hail, Caesar!\" where you're essentially reverse engineering - you know, th"}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 70, "text": "Yeah. And just to explain to anyone who isn't familiar with Esther Williams musicals, she was actually a great swimmer, in my opinion a kind of mediocre singer. But", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So we actually shot in that tank, which had not been shot in in quite some time. But yes, you can't actually find either the physical sort of plant to do it in that was constructed for these types of "}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 71, "text": "- but there were musicals in which instead of, like, a big dance number for her there would be, like, a big swimming musical sequence for her. And a lot of it was, like - you know, highly choreographed stunt swimming with instead of a chorus of people other swimmers in the pool. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So we actually shot in that tank, which had not been shot in in quite some time. But yes, you can't actually find either the physical sort of plant to do it in that was constructed for these types of "}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 72, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's kind of..."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 73, "text": "I know.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's another example of a kind of demented genre. Who invented the genre? Like singing cowboy, why would there be water ballet musicals? It's just very odd."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 74, "text": "I know. And just to explain, the reason why there are so many, like, musical - different kinds of musical genres in \"Hail, Caesar!\" is because it's set in a Hollywood studio. There are other films in addition to the biblical epic that are being shot there. And we see some of those other films that are being shot. And one of those films is a musical about sailors who are on leave during World War II. And they're about to be called, like, back onto the ship. And they're realizing, like, oh, it's going to be, like, eight months without women. And so Channing Tatum as one of the sailors sings this song about, like, no dames. There's going to be, like, no dames. And it's a really fun sequence with, like, dancing that is so much like those late '40s, early '50s musicals where, like, he dances with a broom, he dances with a chorus of sailors, he dances on the bar, he does a soft shoe on sand. I mean, just, like, every", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Unintelligible)."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 75, "text": "- every trope from those dance numbers is in this except with much more, like, gay overtones and double entendres. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Unintelligible)."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 76, "text": "Right", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, well, you got singing, dancing sailors. You - see; we're not big on subtext. If there's a gay subtext, we're going to make it text."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 77, "text": ". OK, so let's hear some of the song. So this is Channing Tatum. And he's doing his own singing, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, well, you got singing, dancing sailors. You - see; we're not big on subtext. If there's a gay subtext, we're going to make it text."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 78, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 79, "text": "And did you write the song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 80, "text": "OK, well, let's hear it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. In fact, a couple of friends of ours, Willie Reale and Henry Krieger, wrote this song."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 81, "text": "So did you love those old musicals?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As characters, singing) But mermaids got no gams. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #6: (As character, singing) No gams."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 82, "text": "Well, I want to thank you both for talking with us. Thank you so much. It's always a pleasure to talk with you. Thanks for coming back to our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Unlike looking at the biblical epics again, looking at those musicals again was a pleasure. I mean, they're great."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 83, "text": "Joel and Ethan Coen wrote and directed the new film \"The Ballad Of Buster Scruggs.\" It's showing in theaters and is also streaming on Netflix. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll talk about what it's like to climb a vertical rock thousands of feet high using little cracks and edges of the wall on which to hold on and balance your body weight. Our guests will be Tommy Caldwell and Kevin Jorgeson. Their historic free climb on El Capitan's notorious Dawn Wall in Yosemite is the subject of a new documentary. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a pleasure for us, too."}
{"id": "669204732", "date": "2018-11-19", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 84, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a pleasure for us, too."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. I hope you're enjoying your Thanksgiving. We want to play something that will add to your enjoyment of the day, so we're featuring our recent performance and interview with Linda Gail Lewis and Robbie Fulks. Linda Gail Lewis is the younger sister of Jerry Lee Lewis, who is aptly described in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame as the wild man of rock 'n' roll. They grew up in a shack in Ferriday, La. She learned to play piano from watching him. They started performing together when she was 14 in the early 1960s. Jerry Lee Lewis and Linda Gail Lewis recorded together, and she toured with him for many years in the '60s and '70s before going off on her own. Robbie Fulks is songwriter, singer and guitarist. A lot of his songs are in the tradition of classic country music. They're so good. I can't understand why lots of other country singers haven't recorded them. Linda Gail Lewis and Robbie Fulks have a new album together called \"Wild! Wild! Wild!\" Most of the songs were written by Fulks, inspired by roots music like rockabilly, country and western and soul. We'll hear them perform in our studio, but let's start with something from the album, the title track, written by Fulks. Linda Gail Lewis is featured on piano, Fulks on guitar.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 1, "text": "Linda Gail Lewis, welcome to FRESH AIR. Robbie Fulks, welcome back to FRESH AIR. And congratulations on your album \"Wild! Wild! Wild!\" So you're from pretty different generation. You're from different parts of the country. How did you get together, and what do you think you bring out in each other?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) And they figured us well because truth to tell, we was wild, wild, wild."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 2, "text": "Yeah, he has", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 3, "text": ". So Linda, we just heard a sample of your piano style, which is very similar to your brother Jerry Lee Lewis' piano style. But you didn't start playing until you were 30 or 40 or something.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 4, "text": "What did he show you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was actually 40. You know, I knew the basic chords on the piano, you know, like, for just accompanying myself if I was writing a song or just singing a gospel song or a country song or something. Bu"}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 5, "text": "What about the glissandos, where you slide down the notes of the piano?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He showed me basically this - I call it the Jerry Lee Lewis invention 'cause it's kind of like a Bach invention, only it's for boogie-woogie and rock 'n' roll. He came up with this thing for me to pla"}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 6, "text": "I always think it must tear up your hands", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 8, "text": "Does it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It does."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 9, "text": "OK, so you sing great harmonies together. Did that come naturally? I mean, Linda, you certainly sang a lot of harmonies with your brother in the past.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It does."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 10, "text": "Oh, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, that old tune."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 11, "text": "Oh, that's great. So you do some great harmonies on an original, Robbie, that you wrote called \"That's Why They Call It Temptation.\" Could you sing some of that for us now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it just fell right into place kind of like just that, you know?"}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 12, "text": "Oh, thank you for doing that. And that song is on Robbie Fulks' and Linda Gail Lewis' new album called \"Wild! Wild! Wild!\" But of course, we've just heard them perform it here in our studio. You're both from very different backgrounds. So, Linda, let me ask you. You grew up in a shack in Louisiana. Would you describe the shack for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) But still dreaming of you. I'm still dreaming of you."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 13, "text": "Most of the other kids weren't as poor.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was this gray building. There was kind of, like, holes in it in places. And we didn't have a bathroom on the inside. We had to bathe in a tin tub out on the porch in the summer or in the kitc"}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, yeah, 'cause, you know, he became famous as Jerry Lee Lewis. He signed with Sun Records. And people know how that story went. So it must have really profoundly affected your family life when there was money coming in and he became famous.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't see any other shacks exactly like that one, maybe one or two. But still, when it's you getting off the bus and it's your shack, it's embarrassing. So it was hard for me. But, you know, I was "}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 15, "text": "Everyone in your family made music, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It was lovely. And he gave us a thousand dollars to go shopping. My mama had two dresses, one to wear to church and one to wear at home. That's all she had. And we took a thousand dollars to Doris' "}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 16, "text": "So one thing you have in common in terms of your background is I think, you know, you both grew up in musical families. Although, Linda, there was a famous person in your family - well, not just Jerry Lee Lewis. Jimmy Swaggart is your cousin. And he's, like, the famous televangelist - a famous televangelist preacher. But he performed in those shows, too, didn't he, like sing and play?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yes, my mama was a great singer. She was the song leader in our church. And Daddy played guitar, and he played a little bit of piano."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 17, "text": "Right. And the scandal involved a prostitute and pornography", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he's a great singer. He's a great preacher. And he was off of TV for a while because of the scandal, but he's back on now."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he's a great singer. He's a great preacher. And he was off of TV for a while because of the scandal, but he's back on now."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 19, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think so."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 20, "text": "Is that true?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 21, "text": "But you don't think he was framed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 22, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that's far-fetched."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 23, "text": "OK. So - and did you both grow up singing in church a lot, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I love Jimmy, and I wouldn't say anything bad about him. But that'd be a bit far-fetched."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 24, "text": "Did you sing a lot of church songs at home even though you just did a little singing in church, Robbie?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 25, "text": "So Linda, I think your family helped build the church that your family belonged to.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I'm trying to remember. I did a lot of singing with my family. And I went to - I stopped going to church partly because we were living so far from anything, and I didn't have transportation."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 26, "text": "And that was your church?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they did. You know, it was a Holy Roller church, so it wasn't so popular. In our little town of Ferriday, you'd have, like, a thousand people attending the Baptist church and maybe 500 the Metho"}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 27, "text": "So what kind of music was in the church?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that was our church."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 28, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it was great music. And Robbie would have loved it, you know?"}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 29, "text": "I'm wondering if your brother and you first got your hands on a piano in church because it - if you were living in a shack, I doubt there was a piano in the shack.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He'd have probably been finding a way to get to church if he was going to that one. It was just - you know, it was wonderful music, upbeat - most of the time, not all the time. But it was very emotion"}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 30, "text": "In the shack?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my mama and daddy found a way to get my brother a piano when he was 8 years old."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 31, "text": "In the shack with the holes in it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess, yeah. We were still..."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 32, "text": "No.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he - they bought it from my aunt. My Aunt Eva (ph) had a piano she had bought for her daughter, Norma Jean (ph). And Norma Jean just wouldn't take the lessons and play the piano. So she said she"}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 33, "text": "Wow. So now that we've talked a little bit about your church background, can I ask you to do a song that you also do on the new album \"Wild! Wild! Wild!\"? I'm going to ask you to sing your duet of \"On The Jericho Road.\" And did you both know this song before you decided to do it together?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Because they lived up over their cafe that - they had a cafe. And they lived up over it, so it was upstairs. And Jerry told me. He said, I can't believe how Daddy could move that piano down those s"}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 34, "text": "Oh, thank you for that. I loved it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Each burden he'll bear. Each sorrow he'll share. There's never a care. Precious Jesus is there. There's never a care. Precious Jesus is there."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 35, "text": "No, that was wonderful. So we just heard you sing \"On The Jericho Road,\" which is a very Christian song. And Linda, I think you're still in the church.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Warts and all."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 36, "text": "But you're still deeply a Christian?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm not exactly in a church. They won't have me. But I am a Christian."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 37, "text": "And Robbie, as I remember from our last interview, you completely moved away from the church.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But yes, I do go to church occasionally. But I don't, like, belong to a church. But I'm very spiritual, and I love the Lord."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 38, "text": "Are you OK with that, Linda?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I'm an atheist, which I haven't really discussed with Linda until this moment. But there it is."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 39, "text": "Your secret is long out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I already knew that he was an atheist. I read it on one of those social media things."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 40, "text": "But you still love singing those songs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. The cat's out of the bag."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 41, "text": "Do you have any transcendental thing to believe in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I really do. I mean, they're great songs. I mean, songs about belief - you know, that's what makes a love song great 'cause you believe it when you sing it. And songs about transcendental belief to me"}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 42, "text": "OK", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The heat death of the universe. But no, I don't really consider that a faith I guess, so no."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 43, "text": ". Linda, what did your parents think, being such church people, when Jerry Lee Lewis along with you, his younger sister, started performing these, like, wild songs, totally secular, kind of blasphemous probably within your church? So how did that go over in the family? Now, granted he was bringing in a lot of money and got the family out of poverty, so I'm sure they liked that. But there was a lot that went along with that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The heat death of the universe. But no, I don't really consider that a faith I guess, so no."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 44, "text": "Did you ever feel like you were going to go to hell because of the music you were playing or the life you were living?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, my parents defended my brother always. And they didn't necessarily agree with his theory, which is that he was doing the devil's music. They didn't really feel that like he did. And - "}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 45, "text": "Even when you were young and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I never felt that way."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 46, "text": "Of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when I was young, I was scared to death."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 47, "text": "Of hell?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean..."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 48, "text": "Sure. But then you're going from that to - I mean, you were married at the age of 14. I mean, you were drinking. You were on the road with your brother. I mean, that is not, like, what would be defined as the righteous life if you want - do you know what I'm saying?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, of hell. I mean, those preachers would preach those sermons and would scare you to death."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 49, "text": "Yeah, that's what I'm saying.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was pretty crazy as a kid."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 50, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 51, "text": "In those early days of being wild, as in \"Wild! Wild! Wild!,\" the album title...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I was."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 52, "text": "...Did you worry about hell? Did you worry about, you know, not being redeemed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Back in the day."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 53, "text": "Tell us a little bit about what it was like to be performing with your brother when you were in your early teens.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And had a chance to think about it. But yes, I probably did worry about it. But I've just always felt like that Jesus forgives us of our sins because that's what the Bible says. And a lot of people"}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 54, "text": "So you were - you met Elvis Presley. You probably met all the rockabilly performers and a lot of other now-famous performers, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 55, "text": "My guests are pianist and singer Linda Gail Lewis and songwriter, singer and pianist Robbie Fulks. Their new album of duets is called \"Wild! Wild! Wild!\" After a break, we'll talk more. They'll sing more. And we'll hear a track that Linda Gail Lewis and Jerry Lee Lewis recorded in 1969. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's been absolutely wonderful. I mean, Chuck Berry and Little Richard - and Fats Domino was a lovely man. It was so great being around all those guys."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 56, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to our session with singer and pianist Linda Gail Lewis, Jerry Lee Lewis' younger sister, and songwriter, singer and guitarist Robbie Fulks. They have a new album of duets called \"Wild! Wild! Wild!\" They're also performing for us in our studio. Linda Gail Lewis toured with Jerry Lee Lewis in the '60s and '70s starting when she was 14.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I walk down this old lonely street, and no one seems to want to speak. Oh, who cares? Yes, who cares for me? All the world seems cold. Everything is grey..."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 57, "text": "Let's hear Linda Gail Lewis and Jerry Lee Lewis singing a duet from their 1969 album called \"Together.\" The song is called \"Secret Places.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I walk down this old lonely street, and no one seems to want to speak. Oh, who cares? Yes, who cares for me? All the world seems cold. Everything is grey..."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 58, "text": "That was Linda Gail Lewis and her brother Jerry Lee Lewis from 1969 on an album of duets that they recorded called \"Together.\" And with me is Linda Gail Lewis along with Robbie Fulks, who is a great songwriter, singer and guitarist. And they have a new album of duets called \"Wild! Wild! Wild!\" Robbie, the last time we spoke, which was the first time we spoke", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) But we'll go on and live our love tonight in secret places. Secret places, hidden faces..."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 59, "text": ", we talked a lot about how you spent years in Nashville trying to write songs for other country performers who were likely to have, like, a hit because they were already well-known.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) But we'll go on and live our love tonight in secret places. Secret places, hidden faces..."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 60, "text": "I was very interested in that because I think - you know, like, Nashville kind of became like Tin Pan Alley, in a way...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You were very interested in that, I remember."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 61, "text": "...Where people were writing songs for other performers. And I think, you know, rock 'n' roll stopped being that way, and Nashville kind of picked it up. And I just think you're also just a terrific songwriter.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 62, "text": "So we talked about how you'd stopped doing that. You were writing songs for a music publishing company, and you'd stopped doing that because the people who you were hoping would turn your songs into moneymakers weren't buying. I mean, they weren't interested in doing the songs. Correct me if I'm wrong here. And so you just started writing for yourself again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 63, "text": "Give me your version of what I just said", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I guess that's a..."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 64, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I guess that's a..."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 65, "text": "Riding around in a van, putting out your own records?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, that's a version of it. I think - well, I was writing songs for myself and for - and songs that I kind of disliked but as pitches to other people. And some of the songs were kind of down the middl"}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 66, "text": "I probably said this the last time we spoke, but if I were a country music singer, I'd want to be singing your songs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm still in the van and still putting out my own records. And I'm still on that label, which is Bloodshot. And I think I'm much - you know, was sort of fated to be that in a way, probably. I think I "}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 67, "text": "That's because it is so improbable.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you. I can't picture you as a country music singer."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 68, "text": "But I love country music. You know, it's probably hard to picture me as any kind of singer for a good reason. But", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 69, "text": "- but I love country music. You know, it's not what I grew up with, but I've just come to love the emotional quality of it and the songcraft. I just find it very fulfilling to listen to it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 70, "text": "They're kind of adult songs in some ways because they're about...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I really love - I mean, there's so much of it I love. There's the lyrical honesty. You know, we were introducing that adultery song we were singing last night. And I said, this is a country song"}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 71, "text": "Like, they're about drinking. They're about cheating, about marriages breaking up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 72, "text": "They're about sin. Yeah. And so it's - they can be very emotionally deep", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They're about sin."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 73, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They're about sin."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 74, "text": "Can you play an example of the kind of sound we're talking about - in my opinion the kind of song we're talking about, \"When You Get To The Bottom,\" which is a great song about love lost and drinking and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, the other thing I was going to say I like about the older country music - really the older, not so much the newer - is the performance quality. You know, you can hear people in a room comm"}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 75, "text": "...Jealousy and all of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 76, "text": "You want to say anything about writing it, like, what the occasion was for writing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 77, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it was a - it was pretty banal, Terry. It was - like, I think I was looking to fill out a record with a honky-tonk song. And it was a record with a bunch of depressing and..."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 78, "text": "Yeah, I love that. I love that song, too. That was Robbie Fulks playing a song he wrote called \"When You Get To The Bottom.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Why not?"}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 79, "text": "Well, you know, on the new album \"Wild! Wild! Wild!,\" you have a song, Robbie, that's basically a soul music song. I haven't heard you do that before. But it's called \"Foolmaker.\" And, you know, there's a very soulful organ behind you and backup singers. How did you end up writing something more in the genre of soul music than country?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Why not?"}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 80, "text": "So I think we need to hear \"Foolmaker.\" This is a song by Robbie Fulks that he's performing on the new album \"Wild! Wild! Wild!\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, recently, I was working on - this is a whole 'nother ball of wax. But I was working on a cover album version of a Bob Dylan record called \"Street-Legal\" that came out in 1979. In the c"}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 81, "text": "That's Robbie Fulks' song that is featured on the new album \"Wild! Wild! Wild!\" It's a song he wrote. And the album is an album of duets with Robbie and Linda Gail Lewis, who is also a pianist and singer and the younger sister of Jerry Lee Lewis. And her piano playing is very much in that style. So among the kinds of songs you've written, you've written a lot of drinking songs. And they're always very persuasive. Was drinking ever an issue for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Lord, I fell right into your hands. You loved me and left me."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 82, "text": "Seriously?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It still is..."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 83, "text": "Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...An issue. Yeah."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 84, "text": "It seems to be something that comes easy when people are on the road.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I drank a bit much last night, as a matter of fact. I wasn't planning to. But I was excited about coming down here, and I think I had one too many. I'm a moderately heavy drinker. You look very concer"}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 85, "text": "Right. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I do it at home, too, so I don't know."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 86, "text": "Yeah. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is headed in a suddenly dark direction."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 87, "text": "I'm going to take it slightly darker. Linda, there was a period I know - because you've written about it in your autobiography from the '90s - there was a period when you were doing drugs. You were addicted to quaaludes for a while. You overdosed four times, nearly died at least one of those times. And then you threw all the pills out the window, and I'm assuming you've been sober since then.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 88, "text": "Oh, you were prescribed them and then got addicted.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes, I have. And I don't know if that would have ever happened to me if I hadn't lost my mother. But, you know, back in those days, the doctors never did say to us, oh, here's a bottle of pills, a"}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 89, "text": "Oh. Oh. Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were prescribed, yes."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 90, "text": "Linda, I'm going to ask you to do a song that you wrote. And this, too, is - it's a sad song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But it was about a year, I believe. But I had a really close call because I had reached the point where I just couldn't eat anything. And I had to have IVs for weeks. I don't even know how many weeks "}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 91, "text": "Yeah. It's \"Heartbreak Highway.\" And you were telling me before we actually started recording that you write songs when you're sad, when you're depressed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is. I was depressed when I wrote it."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 92, "text": "So how did this song come to you? What was going on in your life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 93, "text": "Can you sing some of it acapella for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And I just wrote the song in the car."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 94, "text": "Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. (Singing) As I watch the sunset, the tears begin to roll. There's a dark and lonely feeling in my soul. Five hundred miles from Memphis, I'll head on down the road. And I'm on heartbreak highway, "}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 95, "text": "Oh, it's a really good song. How often do you write songs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. (Singing) As I watch the sunset, the tears begin to roll. There's a dark and lonely feeling in my soul. Five hundred miles from Memphis, I'll head on down the road. And I'm on heartbreak highway, "}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 96, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "How long did it take - 'cause I remember you came in with a song written in long hand. And she's got this great cursive writing. She won penmanship in the third grade..."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 97, "text": "So who's Annie?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. Annie helped me. We wrote it together. She was kind of a little bit down, too, because her grandmother had passed away. And I was saying to her, but you have all these wonderful memories"}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 98, "text": "How many children do you have?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Annie is my daughter, Annie Marie Lewis."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 99, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If you have enough, you're still going to always have some left."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 100, "text": "Maybe this is the wrong place to bring it up, but you've been married, like, eight times, nine times.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, we're very close."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 101, "text": "So we've heard you do duets together. You've also both recorded a lot solo. What are some of the pleasures of singing harmony?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I have. And I had two children with Cecil Harrelson, my - our - he was our family friend and my brother's friend from the age of 12 years old. And so we had two children. And then I married Bren"}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 102, "text": "Oh, that's great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I really - I enjoy harmonizing. Of course, I did with my brother and with my sister, Frankie Jean. And then now my son and my daughter sing with me, and that's a lot of fun when we do that."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 103, "text": "So I have chosen all the songs that I've asked you to do. Would you like to choose a song to play for us to end?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure, unbeatable."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 104, "text": "It sounds like it's autobiographical. But it's not, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. I love this song so much. It's just about my favorite song on the album."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 105, "text": "Thank you both so much. And that was Linda Gail Lewis and Robbie Fulks playing in our studio. That song is also on their new album of duets, \"Wild! Wild! Wild!\" It has been so great to have you both here. Thank you for being so generous playing your music for us. I really loved hearing it. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This honky-tonking way of living, I've been living way too long. Excuse me if I'm late for heaven. I just lived a country song. Oh, and if I never get to heaven, it's because I lived a country song."}
{"id": "669707318", "date": "2018-11-22", "guest": "Robbie Fulks", "title": "Robbie Fulks And Linda Gail Lewis On Singing Harmony And Living A 'Wild!' Life", "question_index": 106, "text": "Robbie Fulks and Linda Gail Lewis, recorded in our studio in September. Their new album is called \"Wild! Wild! Wild!\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much."}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Cecile McLorin Salvant, welcome to FRESH AIR. I really like that you choose songs in the jazz sound in your repertoire and songs way outside", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 1, "text": "of the repertoire, like \"Stepsister's Lament.\" When I heard you sing that live, you said that the first version of that you heard was actually sung by Brandy. Tell us how old you were then and what that song meant to you.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 2, "text": "Oh, I see.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was actually not sung by Brandy. It was sung by these two actresses who were in the movie with Brandy who played her stepsisters."}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 3, "text": "I should've figured that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So Brandy was Cinderella and then she had these two awful stepsisters who sing this song."}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 4, "text": "What made you think that you could take this song from a Rodgers and Hammerstein musical for children and make it into a really interesting jazz song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'll say I was around 10. And I related with it because, you know, it's the point of view of the girl who is often invisible and looked over. And I definitely felt that way and feel that way still a l"}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Now, I want to compare \"Stepsister's Lament\" from \"Cinderella,\" your version of that, with an original song that you wrote that's on your new album. And this is a song called \"Look At Me.\" And the feeling of this song is kind of similar. The lyric includes the line - look at me, why don't you look at me the way you look at all the other girls you see? Can you talk a little bit about writing that song before we hear it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, a big part of it is knowing that and trusting that the musicians I sing with would find a sort of groove, a sort of, you know, funky jazz take to it, you know? I knew that if I gave it to the Tr"}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 6, "text": "Well, this is a beautiful ballad. The style of this song is the opposite of \"Stepsister's Lament.\" So let's hear Cecile McLorin Salvant's song \"Look At Me\" from her new album \"For One To Love.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wrote that - I have a good friend that started sending me poems via email, and I would respond and we just started writing like that. It had been such a long time since I'd just written poems with, "}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 7, "text": "That's Cecile McLorin Salvant from her new album, \"For One To Love.\" It's a song she wrote called, \"Look At Me.\" So now that you're on stage and becoming famous within the jazz world, more people are looking at you - I mean, literally. Do you like being the focus of attention when you're on stage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Look at me. Why don't you look at me the way you look at all the other girls you see? I'm your friend. I guess I'll always be. But I'm in love with you endlessly. All the time, all of the ti"}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 8, "text": "That's a very strong word.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's weird. I'll say, in a way, I love it. I mean, I do love being on stage. And I've always loved playing a character and being watched doing that. I remember in school, in elementary school, I used "}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well, we need to talk about your incredible voice. When I listen to you, I hear elements of Sarah Vaughan, Abbey Lincoln, Betty Carter, Billie Holiday. When you started listening to those singers, did you, when you were young, try to copy them to really learn how they did what they did, the way some writers copy paragraphs of favorite writers to better understand the structure and flow of the words in their favorite writers' sentences?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I don't know. I just don't like to be in my own - I'm already myself. So I don't like to be in my own - like, watch myself."}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 10, "text": "So after listening so obsessively to so many singers, did you ever go through an identity crisis as a singer yourself and wondering, but who am I? I can sound like these people. I love those people. But what is uniquely me?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would say, for certain singers, I definitely went through that. I definitely went through that with Sarah Vaughan. As - I think I started really falling in love with her voice when I was about 14. M"}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 11, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is singer speed of Cecile McLorin Salvant. She has a new album called \"For One To Love.\" Let's take a short break, then we'll hear some music - some more music and talk some more. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "of all the people that I love. But then I'll - I'm very - I doubt myself a lot. And I'm very, very just overly critical. So I know that it's probably not that."}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is singer Cecile McLorin Salvant. She has a new album called \"For One To Love.\" You have such an amazing instrument. I mean, you have such an amazing voice. And you use it with such emotional and tonal and notey range.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "of all the people that I love. But then I'll - I'm very - I doubt myself a lot. And I'm very, very just overly critical. So I know that it's probably not that."}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 13, "text": "So I also think that, like, writing your own songs is probably helping you find, like, your own musical identity.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "of all the people that I love. But then I'll - I'm very - I doubt myself a lot. And I'm very, very just overly critical. So I know that it's probably not that."}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 14, "text": "One of the things I really like about your repertoire is that you go back to early jazz, and you find music from the early 19th century - early 20th century, I mean - and from the 1920s and '30s. And how did you decide to go back that far? Because a lot of singers don't.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure, writing my own songs and also the time and care I take in choosing the repertoire. It takes me a lot of time, and it's almost frustrating for the guys sometimes because they're waiting for a new"}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 15, "text": "I'm glad you said that 'cause the song - the next song I want to play is a Bert Williams song. He's part of, like, the minstrel era. And he is an African-American man who sang in blackface. And I think because of that, until recently he was pretty much ignored. I think his work was considered an embarrassment. But you do what is probably his most famous song, which is called \"Nobody.\" You did that on your previous album, \"WomanChild.\" So I'd like you to tell us why you chose that song and how you thought it would work for you - like, what you did with it that you thought would suit, like, your voice and your personality.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I'm - I'm fascinated with history and just in general. And I'm always interested in how did - how did this come to be? Why is this the way it is? And even singing classical voice, I quickly be"}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 16, "text": "So let's hear \"Nobody.\" And my guest is Cecile McLorin Salvant. She has a new album called \"For One To Love.\" But this version of the Bert Williams song \"Nobody\" is from her previous album, which is called \"WomanChild.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't know about Bert Williams until I read this book. I didn't even know really what blackface and minstrel shows were, let alone that black people actually were blackface performers as well and h"}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 17, "text": "After we take a short break, I'll be back with Cecile McLorin Salvant. She'll tell us about one of the most sexist song she knows and why she sings it on her new album. The album's called \"For One To Love.\" I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) When winter comes with snow and sleet, and me with hunger and cold feet, who says, here's 25 cents; go and get something to eat? Nobody. I ain't never done nothing to nobody. I never get not"}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross back with jazz singer Cecile McLorin Salvant. She has a new album called \"For One To Love.\" Her repertoire ranges from jazz standards to forgotten old songs, show tunes and originals. When we left off, we heard her version of the song \"Nobody,\" which was the song most associated with Bert Williams, one of the most popular African-American performers of the early 1900s. He performed in blackface. I'm glad that you decided to go back to the early 20th century and do that song and to not be put-off by the politics of blackface and to just find what is musically interesting in that and what is musically interesting and humanly interesting about Bert Williams in spite of how he had to compromise himself with - by wearing blackface.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) When winter comes with snow and sleet, and me with hunger and cold feet, who says, here's 25 cents; go and get something to eat? Nobody. I ain't never done nothing to nobody. I never get not"}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 19, "text": "American music is so complicated in terms of its ancestry.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think it's just really - it's just the idea of blackface itself is just so - it's not just a terrible thing, I think. There is also the idea of, like, these people are reclaiming, in some sens"}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yeah, it just goes back and forth, which is great. I mean, you know, it's that kind of, like, cross-breeding of musical styles that makes it so rich. You've also gone back and looked for songs by women composers, like, you do...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it really is."}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 21, "text": "...A song by Blanche Calloway, Cab Callaway's sister, on your new album. You do some Clarence Williams songs from, I guess, the 1930s. And in addition to finding a lot of old songs, I think you're trying to turn recent songs - some recent songs, or at least one recent song on its head, and kind of reinterpret it. And I'm thinking of \"Wives And Lovers,\" which is just one of the all-time, like, sexist songs. It was a 1963 hit by Jack Jones - music by Burt Bacharach and lyric by Hal David. And they are such a fabulous song-writing team, and I don't know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep."}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 22, "text": "...How this particular song happened.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 23, "text": "But why in the world would you sing a song that - why don't you recite the lyric?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Why? Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Hey, little girl, comb your hair, fix your makeup, soon he will open the door. Don't think because there's a ring on your finger, you needn't try anymore. For wives should always be lovers t"}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Yeah, I'll say.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just - sometimes I get - I just find things so funny because they're so absurd to me. And I find the humor in it, and I think it's going to be funny. And I don't even think of it, like, as a politic"}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 26, "text": "OK, so we should hear a little bit of you singing it. So this is \"Wives And Lovers\" from Cecile McLorin Salvant's new album \"For One To Love.\" So as you listen, go comb your hair and fix your makeup. Here we go.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that song happens to be - it just happens to be so catchy and it's - I love that song, and I think it's hilarious. And it actually - I remember playing it for a few friends, and we had this big de"}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 27, "text": "That's Cecile McLorin Salvant from her new album, \"For One To Love.\" I feel like there should be, like, giant quotation marks around that song when you sing it...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Hey, little girl, comb your hair, fix your makeup, soon he will open the door. Don't think because there's a ring on your finger, you needn't try anymore. For wives should always be lovers t"}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 28, "text": "...'Cause you're singing it straight, like, I - you know, if you just played that for me, I wouldn't know that you thought, like, that's like an incredibly sexist but very catchy song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 29, "text": "Of course it's catchy, I mean, Burt Bacharach wrote the music, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 30, "text": "No, no", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, of course. But I mean, you would still - you wouldn't, I fell like - today - hearing that song today, you wouldn't be, like, OK, I need to go fix myself up and, you know, wax and..."}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 31, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, of course. But I mean, you would still - you wouldn't, I fell like - today - hearing that song today, you wouldn't be, like, OK, I need to go fix myself up and, you know, wax and..."}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 32, "text": "So I'm just wondering, when you look for sexist songs, what are some of the ones that came up that you decided not to do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And when I sing it live, I - there's a line about curlers - about not leaving your husband with your hair still in curlers. And I don't have hair, really. My hair's really short, so I think that kind "}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 33, "text": "Right, Phil Spector produced that one.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...\"He Hit Me And It Felt Like A Kiss.\" That one was..."}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 34, "text": "And that's more of a girl group - like, a...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that one."}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 35, "text": "...Rock 'n' roll girl-group song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 36, "text": "Oh, that's Fanny Brice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, and I don't - yeah, that one is - that one definitely stays with me, and I'm thinking that maybe it'll come up. There's other songs that are - I don't know if I would say that they're completely"}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 37, "text": "I kind of like that song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 38, "text": "My baby likes bacon and that's what I'm making.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I kind of like it too."}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 39, "text": "I'm cooking breakfast for the one love.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, (singing) so that's what I'm making."}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 40, "text": "So my guest is singer Cecile McLorin Salvant. She has a new album called \"For One To Love.\" Let's take a short break, then we'll hear some music and talk some more. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's that's not really - it's sexist in the context that it was written. But a man could sing that to me. I'd be very happy to hear it."}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 41, "text": "My guest is singer Cecile McLorin Salvant. She has a new album called \"For One To Love.\" I want to talk about the period when you were in Paris. And this is when you were studying voice in college - or was this a college or a conservatory after college?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's that's not really - it's sexist in the context that it was written. But a man could sing that to me. I'd be very happy to hear it."}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 42, "text": "I see, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a conservatory at the same time as I was in college."}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 43, "text": "So while you were in France, you studied with and played with a saxophonist and clarinetist named Jean Francois Bonnel. And you were saying that he introduced you to a lot of early jazz. I want to play a song from your first recording that you made in - I think it was 2009...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In Aix-en-Provence."}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 44, "text": "...With Jean Francois Bonnel. And I want to play the first track of the album. It's \"After You've Gone.\" So just tell us about where you were in your life as a person and as a singer when you recorded this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 45, "text": "And why did you choose \"After You've Gone\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I was about 18 years old, I think - or 19. And I was just starting to sing jazz and get into the repertoire and listen to different singers and listen to instrumental music. And I was really just "}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 46, "text": "OK. Well, this is great. This is amazing. This is Cecile McLorin Salvant in her late teens.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's just one of - it's just one of the songs that I loved at the time. I had heard it by Bessie Smith, and I just really enjoyed that song. There was no other - there was no other thought behind it. "}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 47, "text": "Here we go.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's just one of - it's just one of the songs that I loved at the time. I had heard it by Bessie Smith, and I just really enjoyed that song. There was no other - there was no other thought behind it. "}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 48, "text": "That's Cecile McLorin Salvant - her first recording made in her late teens when she was studying in France. So you're a jazz singer, but you studied classical voice for many years - many years - I mean, you're only 26 so...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Now, listen, honey, while I say, now that you're telling me you're going away. Don't say that we must part. Don't break my aching heart. You know I loved you true for many years, loved you n"}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 49, "text": "So what am I talking - how many years you could have studied it. But you started when you were really young, so were you listening to a lot of classical music when you were young?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Now, listen, honey, while I say, now that you're telling me you're going away. Don't say that we must part. Don't break my aching heart. You know I loved you true for many years, loved you n"}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 50, "text": "You're talking about opera here?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, I wasn't listening to that much classical music, not much more than anything else. We - I was really lucky to have parents who loved all kinds of music. So we'd listen to a lot of different "}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 51, "text": "So when you were making the transition from being a classical singer to being a jazz singer, what did you change about your voice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, opera. Yeah, so that's what really fascinated me."}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 52, "text": "Well, I'd like to end with one more song. And I was thinking of \"The Trolley Song\" from your new album, which is a song that Martin and Blaine wrote for \"Meet Me In St. Louis\" - for the movie starring Judy Garland who sings this in a great scene in the movie. Why did you choose this song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did everything I could to not bring in any of the technical things I got from classical into jazz. And I did everything to really base it on my speaking voice and to just not try to make it sound pr"}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 53, "text": "And this is the same movie that \"Have Yourself A Merry Little Christmas\" was written for.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I - this is one of those where I just became obsessed with the song itself, and there was no other reasoning behind it. I saw the scene in question, and it became my life. It was - I would watch it ma"}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 54, "text": "Cecile McLorin Salvant, it's just been wonderful to talk with you. Thank you so much, and I look forward to hearing much more of your singing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, oh, gosh. Oh, my goodness."}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 55, "text": "Well, thank you. And I'm a big fan of your singing, so great to have you on the show. Cecile McLorin Salvant recorded in 2015. Her new album is called \"The Window.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. It's been a pleasure and an honor. And I'm an absolute crazy fan."}
{"id": "669708672", "date": "2018-11-23", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 56, "text": "Monday on FRESH AIR, we'll talk about breakthroughs in our understanding of the immune system and how the body fights disease and heals itself - or attacks itself - and how stress, sleep and state of mind figure into the immune system's functioning. My guest will be Daniel M. Davis, author of \"The Beautiful Cure.\" He's a professor of immunology at the University of Manchester in the U.K. I hope you'll join us. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our senior producer today is Roberta Shorrock. Our technical director is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Charlie Kaier. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I'll go my way by myself. This is the end of romance. I'll go my way by myself. Love is only a dance. I'll try to apply myself and teach my heart how to sing. I'll go my way by myself like a"}
{"id": "670793745", "date": "2018-11-26", "guest": "Daniel Davis", "title": "'The Beautiful Cure' Reveals The 'Profound' Power Of The Immune System", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're going to talk about one of the great mysteries of the human body - how the immune system works. Why does it sometimes attack healthy tissue, leading to autoimmune diseases like rheumatoid arthritis and diabetes? And how are scientists harnessing the latest discoveries about the immune system to create new medications to fight cancer, autoimmune conditions and other diseases? My guest is immunologist Daniel Davis, author of the new book \"The Beautiful Cure: The Revolution In Immunology And What It Means For Your Health.\" He's a professor of immunology at the University of Manchester in England where he runs a lab that uses microscopes to learn by watching how immune cells detect and kill diseased cells. He says the immune system is far more powerful than any medication we have devised. Daniel Davis, welcome to FRESH AIR. So you say our body's own remedy, the immune system, is far more powerful than any medicine we've devised. Before we go into detail talking about immunity and autoimmune diseases and vaccines and all that stuff, what is it about our own immune system that makes it more powerful than any medicine?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "670793745", "date": "2018-11-26", "guest": "Daniel Davis", "title": "'The Beautiful Cure' Reveals The 'Profound' Power Of The Immune System", "question_index": 1, "text": "Whereas there's no medication that could take care of all of that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, quite frankly, your body is exposed to an untold number of all different kinds of germs from bacteria, viruses, fungi that might be out there in the world. And most of the time, your body's able"}
{"id": "670793745", "date": "2018-11-26", "guest": "Daniel Davis", "title": "'The Beautiful Cure' Reveals The 'Profound' Power Of The Immune System", "question_index": 2, "text": "Among the many things that I learned from your book is that the immune system's potency changes at different times of the day. What are the changes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. So the immune system has to be able to react essentially to germs that haven't even been in the universe before, right? If viruses are changing their nature through mutations - as you're fami"}
{"id": "670793745", "date": "2018-11-26", "guest": "Daniel Davis", "title": "'The Beautiful Cure' Reveals The 'Profound' Power Of The Immune System", "question_index": 3, "text": "Like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. So that's a really hot area of research. And I have to say that we - you know, this is going to come up I think many times in interviews like this where there are some edges where we don't unders"}
{"id": "670793745", "date": "2018-11-26", "guest": "Daniel Davis", "title": "'The Beautiful Cure' Reveals The 'Profound' Power Of The Immune System", "question_index": 4, "text": "Does this have implications for when our body is most efficient at healing? Like, do we heal more while we're sleeping?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like, for example, one of the ways we might be able to use this kind of information very specifically would be in vaccination. If vaccines were given at a certain time of day, for example, they may we"}
{"id": "670793745", "date": "2018-11-26", "guest": "Daniel Davis", "title": "'The Beautiful Cure' Reveals The 'Profound' Power Of The Immune System", "question_index": 5, "text": "In order to talk about the immune system and how things like stress and sleep affect the immune system, we need to talk about cortisol. What is cortisol?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So as a first approximation, that's sort of true. But really, when you dig into the details, there are various bits - the system is such a complex web of all different kinds of cells that interact wit"}
{"id": "670793745", "date": "2018-11-26", "guest": "Daniel Davis", "title": "'The Beautiful Cure' Reveals The 'Profound' Power Of The Immune System", "question_index": 6, "text": "So what does the cortisol do? It heightens your awareness or readiness, or it pumps adrenaline so that you can run away from the thing that is theoretically chasing you like a bear, although really what you're stressed about...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Cortisol is a hormone in your blood that prepares your body for a change in activity. So for example, cortisol levels are generally highest in a person just before you're about to wake up because it's"}
{"id": "670793745", "date": "2018-11-26", "guest": "Daniel Davis", "title": "'The Beautiful Cure' Reveals The 'Profound' Power Of The Immune System", "question_index": 7, "text": "...Is a work deadline or a family issue where you're not literally going to be running", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that's..."}
{"id": "670793745", "date": "2018-11-26", "guest": "Daniel Davis", "title": "'The Beautiful Cure' Reveals The 'Profound' Power Of The Immune System", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that's..."}
{"id": "670793745", "date": "2018-11-26", "guest": "Daniel Davis", "title": "'The Beautiful Cure' Reveals The 'Profound' Power Of The Immune System", "question_index": 9, "text": "What's the problem if you have cortisol coursing through your body for a long period of time 'cause you're stressed out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All of these different - yes, exactly, so all of these different kinds of stress that change your cortisol levels because essentially your body is in this heightened state of activity. As if you're ru"}
{"id": "670793745", "date": "2018-11-26", "guest": "Daniel Davis", "title": "'The Beautiful Cure' Reveals The 'Profound' Power Of The Immune System", "question_index": 10, "text": "Because your body wants to spend more energy running away from the immediate threat, the bear, than it wants to spend at that moment from fighting, like, a new germ. But since you're not really running from the bear and you're stressed out for a long period of time, that's going to be bad for your immune system.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So as part - yes. So as part of your flight-or-fight response, your immediate reaction to seeing some kind of danger - you need to run away - your body shifts its efforts. It gets your body ready to r"}
{"id": "670793745", "date": "2018-11-26", "guest": "Daniel Davis", "title": "'The Beautiful Cure' Reveals The 'Profound' Power Of The Immune System", "question_index": 11, "text": "I like that you're acknowledging all the things that science can't really be sure of yet as opposed to just accepting easy narratives that may or may not", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. But I have to say that these are the narratives that we put on the data which are actually quite hard to test. So what you described is exactly the kind of thinking that most scientists would thi"}
{"id": "670793745", "date": "2018-11-26", "guest": "Daniel Davis", "title": "'The Beautiful Cure' Reveals The 'Profound' Power Of The Immune System", "question_index": 12, "text": "be true. They're convenient.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. But I have to say that these are the narratives that we put on the data which are actually quite hard to test. So what you described is exactly the kind of thinking that most scientists would thi"}
{"id": "670793745", "date": "2018-11-26", "guest": "Daniel Davis", "title": "'The Beautiful Cure' Reveals The 'Profound' Power Of The Immune System", "question_index": 13, "text": "They help us explain things, but they haven't really been tested. So thank you for explaining that. It's - it would be more fulfilling for you to tell us for sure what's happening, but", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "670793745", "date": "2018-11-26", "guest": "Daniel Davis", "title": "'The Beautiful Cure' Reveals The 'Profound' Power Of The Immune System", "question_index": 14, "text": "if we don't really know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "670793745", "date": "2018-11-26", "guest": "Daniel Davis", "title": "'The Beautiful Cure' Reveals The 'Profound' Power Of The Immune System", "question_index": 15, "text": "...I appreciate you acknowledging that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "670793745", "date": "2018-11-26", "guest": "Daniel Davis", "title": "'The Beautiful Cure' Reveals The 'Profound' Power Of The Immune System", "question_index": 16, "text": "Right now we should take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Daniel Davis. He's an immunologist and author of the new book, \"The Beautiful Cure: The Revolution In Immunology And What It Means For Your Health.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. That's actually a really important thing to me, you know, so that when - one of the crucial reasons I wanted to write this book, \"The Beautiful Cure,\" was that as a scientist, everything I want t"}
{"id": "670793745", "date": "2018-11-26", "guest": "Daniel Davis", "title": "'The Beautiful Cure' Reveals The 'Profound' Power Of The Immune System", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is immunologist Daniel Davis. He's the author of the new book \"The Beautiful Cure: The Revolution In Immunology And What It Means For Your Health.\" He is a professor of immunology at the University of Manchester in England. So let's talk about the immune system and cancer. If the immune system fights germs, like bacteria and viruses, what is its role in fighting cancer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. That's actually a really important thing to me, you know, so that when - one of the crucial reasons I wanted to write this book, \"The Beautiful Cure,\" was that as a scientist, everything I want t"}
{"id": "670793745", "date": "2018-11-26", "guest": "Daniel Davis", "title": "'The Beautiful Cure' Reveals The 'Profound' Power Of The Immune System", "question_index": 18, "text": "What was the discovery?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is an extremely exciting area for immunologists all over the world. We once thought, in fact, that - how could your body fight cancer? What is cancer? Cancer is not usually associated with any pa"}
{"id": "670793745", "date": "2018-11-26", "guest": "Daniel Davis", "title": "'The Beautiful Cure' Reveals The 'Profound' Power Of The Immune System", "question_index": 19, "text": "Your father has the blood cancer multiple myeloma, and he's been taking the drug thalidomide. Now, in the 1950s, thalidomide was used for - it was often prescribed for pregnant women. Explain why it was prescribed then and what the problem was.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So essentially, when you're infected with the flu virus, the particular cells in your body that fight that flu virus would multiply in number to fight off the flu. But once that flu virus has b"}
{"id": "670793745", "date": "2018-11-26", "guest": "Daniel Davis", "title": "'The Beautiful Cure' Reveals The 'Profound' Power Of The Immune System", "question_index": 20, "text": "Well, separate from - I mean, we should say that the babies were born with deformed limbs or, you know, foreshortened limbs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thalidomide was originally given as a sedative to help pregnant women with particular problems in their pregnancy. And it turned out that the drug causes all sorts of problems during pregnancy. "}
{"id": "670793745", "date": "2018-11-26", "guest": "Daniel Davis", "title": "'The Beautiful Cure' Reveals The 'Profound' Power Of The Immune System", "question_index": 21, "text": "And, you know, it was really kind of tragic. You know, when I was growing up, like, that was the nightmare drug. That was, like, the worst-case-scenario drug for pregnant women. So how is it being used now, in situations like your father's, who has multiple myeloma?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "670793745", "date": "2018-11-26", "guest": "Daniel Davis", "title": "'The Beautiful Cure' Reveals The 'Profound' Power Of The Immune System", "question_index": 22, "text": "So what does it do? How does it work?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So what happened was that, by accident, essentially, it turned out that although the thalidomide had these horrific consequences - I mean, yes, that huge tragedy in the history of medicine - it was al"}
{"id": "670793745", "date": "2018-11-26", "guest": "Daniel Davis", "title": "'The Beautiful Cure' Reveals The 'Profound' Power Of The Immune System", "question_index": 23, "text": "Can you actually see that happening under a microscope in your lab?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's not entirely clear how it works. It seems to do many things in the body. It can directly kill cancer cells. But as well as that, it seems to boost a person's own immune system into being able to "}
{"id": "670793745", "date": "2018-11-26", "guest": "Daniel Davis", "title": "'The Beautiful Cure' Reveals The 'Profound' Power Of The Immune System", "question_index": 24, "text": "Do you think of the things you're seeing under the microscope as being beautiful or ugly? What - if you're looking at disease?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. That is exactly what my whole lab is about - that we use microscopes to watch how the immune system works. We want to understand when an immune cell sticks to another cell - we want to watch the "}
{"id": "670793745", "date": "2018-11-26", "guest": "Daniel Davis", "title": "'The Beautiful Cure' Reveals The 'Profound' Power Of The Immune System", "question_index": 25, "text": "My guest is immunologist Daniel Davis, author of the new book \"The Beautiful Cure: The Revolution In Immunology And What It Means For Your Health.\" After a short break, we'll talk about autoimmune diseases, which are caused when the immune system starts attacking healthy tissue. And Ken Tucker will review a box set of \"The Complete Recordings\" of the late Lefty Frizzell, one of country music's most influential singers. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There is a really deep wonder in watching how your immune system works under a microscope. I think it's quite profound. I think that the part of the human body which we understand the best is this - i"}
{"id": "670793745", "date": "2018-11-26", "guest": "Daniel Davis", "title": "'The Beautiful Cure' Reveals The 'Profound' Power Of The Immune System", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to our interview about the latest discoveries about how the immune system works and how that's leading to new medications. My guest is immunologist Daniel Davis, author of the new book \"The Beautiful Cure: The Revolution In Immunology And What It Means For Your Health.\" He's a professor of immunology at the University of Manchester in England where he runs a lab that uses microscopes to learn by watching how immune cells detect and kill diseased cells. Let's talk about autoimmune diseases. And those are diseases in which something goes wrong with the immune system, and it starts attacking healthy tissue. Describe a little bit more what an autoimmune disease is and give us some examples of them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There is a really deep wonder in watching how your immune system works under a microscope. I think it's quite profound. I think that the part of the human body which we understand the best is this - i"}
{"id": "670793745", "date": "2018-11-26", "guest": "Daniel Davis", "title": "'The Beautiful Cure' Reveals The 'Profound' Power Of The Immune System", "question_index": 27, "text": "Do we understand why the immune system attacks healthy tissues and organs when someone has an autoimmune disease?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK, so an autoimmune disease is a disease where your immune system has started to attack your body's own healthy cells when, obviously, it shouldn't. And there are many examples of this. Multiple scle"}
{"id": "670793745", "date": "2018-11-26", "guest": "Daniel Davis", "title": "'The Beautiful Cure' Reveals The 'Profound' Power Of The Immune System", "question_index": 28, "text": "There are drugs that are being used and drugs that are in the process of being created and theories that might lead to new drugs for the treatment of autoimmune diseases. Give us an example of a drug in use or in the experimental phase that you think is very promising in treating autoimmune disease.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. So the problem is - it's actually an incredibly wonderful process by which that works, that you make an immune system that can react randomly to anything, kill off bits of it that might react to "}
{"id": "670793745", "date": "2018-11-26", "guest": "Daniel Davis", "title": "'The Beautiful Cure' Reveals The 'Profound' Power Of The Immune System", "question_index": 29, "text": "You write that, you know, older people are more prone to autoimmune diseases. And it seems our immune system goes awry as we age, you say. So what goes wrong with our immune system as we get older?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one of the most successful drugs - in fact, one of the world's most successful drugs, period, never mind just what - is a particular drug called anti-TNF, which actually many of your listeners w"}
{"id": "670793745", "date": "2018-11-26", "guest": "Daniel Davis", "title": "'The Beautiful Cure' Reveals The 'Profound' Power Of The Immune System", "question_index": 30, "text": "So let me reintroduce you here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Daniel Davis. He is the author of the new book \"The Beautiful Cure: The Revolution In Immunology And What It Means For Your Health.\" And he's an immunologist who's a professor at the University of Manchester in England. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. That's an incredibly important question, especially as in general the whole of the world's population is increasing in age on average. So it's a really important issue to understand what happens "}
{"id": "670793745", "date": "2018-11-26", "guest": "Daniel Davis", "title": "'The Beautiful Cure' Reveals The 'Profound' Power Of The Immune System", "question_index": 31, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, we're talking about how the immune system works and how new medications are being created to use the immune system, to harness the immune system, to help you heal yourself. The book is called \"The Beautiful Cure.\" And Daniel Davis is a professor of immunology at the University of Manchester in England. Tell us a little bit more about what you're doing in your lab.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. That's an incredibly important question, especially as in general the whole of the world's population is increasing in age on average. So it's a really important issue to understand what happens "}
{"id": "670793745", "date": "2018-11-26", "guest": "Daniel Davis", "title": "'The Beautiful Cure' Reveals The 'Profound' Power Of The Immune System", "question_index": 32, "text": "Sure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My background is actually in physics, so I came to studying the immune system, really, through the idea that we would use microscopes to watch how immune cells work. So we would tag - we'd tag individ"}
{"id": "670793745", "date": "2018-11-26", "guest": "Daniel Davis", "title": "'The Beautiful Cure' Reveals The 'Profound' Power Of The Immune System", "question_index": 33, "text": "So are you cutting that - I forget what it is - off in the lab, or is that something that naturally happens?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So we've been studying how an immune cell sticks on to a cancer cell. And many labs have been watching how it recognizes the cancer cell and how the immune cell then would kill a cancer cell, and lots"}
{"id": "670793745", "date": "2018-11-26", "guest": "Daniel Davis", "title": "'The Beautiful Cure' Reveals The 'Profound' Power Of The Immune System", "question_index": 34, "text": "Something that you say in the book - I think you said this at the very end of the book - is that everything about the immune system is counter-intuitive. So that must make it hard for you as a scientist studying how the immune system works.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it naturally happens, and people are thinking about preventing that from happening as a way of helping your immune cell fight cancer better. But research would suggest that it's really important th"}
{"id": "670793745", "date": "2018-11-26", "guest": "Daniel Davis", "title": "'The Beautiful Cure' Reveals The 'Profound' Power Of The Immune System", "question_index": 35, "text": "So does that mean you can't go with hunches because - since everything", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It makes it hard. But I think also it's part of the reason to study the immune system. You know, we've spoken a lot about how the immune - studying the immune system leads us to new medicines. And tha"}
{"id": "670793745", "date": "2018-11-26", "guest": "Daniel Davis", "title": "'The Beautiful Cure' Reveals The 'Profound' Power Of The Immune System", "question_index": 36, "text": "- you can't go with your intuition since everything about the immune system is counter-intuitive?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It makes it hard. But I think also it's part of the reason to study the immune system. You know, we've spoken a lot about how the immune - studying the immune system leads us to new medicines. And tha"}
{"id": "670793745", "date": "2018-11-26", "guest": "Daniel Davis", "title": "'The Beautiful Cure' Reveals The 'Profound' Power Of The Immune System", "question_index": 37, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I likened the study of the immune system - in my book, I likened it to writing a novel. Right? So when you read the finished thing, it makes sense. And you think the novelist or the artist or whoev"}
{"id": "670793745", "date": "2018-11-26", "guest": "Daniel Davis", "title": "'The Beautiful Cure' Reveals The 'Profound' Power Of The Immune System", "question_index": 38, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's even in one of your earlier interviews that - I think it was Leonard Cohen's son mentioned that Leonard Cohen spent 12 years writing \"Hallelujah.\""}
{"id": "670793745", "date": "2018-11-26", "guest": "Daniel Davis", "title": "'The Beautiful Cure' Reveals The 'Profound' Power Of The Immune System", "question_index": 39, "text": "Well, that reminds me of another sentence that you write in your book, which is, (reading) what keeps scientists going is the faith that nature is coherent and that answers exist.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When you listen to \"Hallelujah,\" you know, it's a masterpiece. Right? Now, I think the beauty of being a scientist is - you know, I'm not pretending that doing science is like writing \"Hallelujah.\" Bu"}
{"id": "670793745", "date": "2018-11-26", "guest": "Daniel Davis", "title": "'The Beautiful Cure' Reveals The 'Profound' Power Of The Immune System", "question_index": 40, "text": "Daniel Davis, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "670793745", "date": "2018-11-26", "guest": "Daniel Davis", "title": "'The Beautiful Cure' Reveals The 'Profound' Power Of The Immune System", "question_index": 41, "text": "Daniel Davis is the author of the new book \"The Beautiful Cure: The Revolution In Immunology And What It Means For Your Health.\" After a break, Ken Tucker will review a 20-CD box set by one of the greatest country singers of all time, the late Lefty Frizzell. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you so much for having me."}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 0, "text": "Please welcome a man you don't want to play cards with - Ricky Jay.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As George) Pushy, Jim, pushy - you don't know what pushy is. Now give me my $6,000."}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 1, "text": "Now, you not only know a lot about cards, you know a lot about the history of con games.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As George) Pushy, Jim, pushy - you don't know what pushy is. Now give me my $6,000."}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 2, "text": "Now...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm interested, yeah."}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 3, "text": "In the movie we just saw - in \"House Of Games,\" Joe Mantegna, when he's teaching Lindsay Crouse about cons, he says, people think a confidence game is when you give the con man your trust. But a confidence game starts when the con man gives you his trust. Is that true?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm interested, yeah."}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 4, "text": "Tell us a con game that you find - a con that you find particularly interesting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's a lovely subtlety. I've never seen that particular point mentioned by anyone but Mamet. But I think it is a lovely thing that you want to be able to do that. You want to be able to trust "}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 5, "text": "So what is your code of ethics as someone who knows a lot about con games? It sounds like part of the code is to protect the con men.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I wrote - I remember sending this clipping to Mamet with a note saying, this is clearly the only practical thing I've ever done in my life."}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 6, "text": "Would you ever run a con on somebody? Have you ever done that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess I did just imply that, didn't I?"}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 7, "text": "Now, you - as I mentioned, you're an expert on the history of really odd and eccentric performers. And you were in a carnival yourself...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that is, in fact, the way that I deal with people in the film world or the theater world or the television world if I'm consulting, which is that if a director has to know how a piece works to sho"}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 8, "text": "...Briefly as a barker. And I had asked you to do this on FRESH AIR. I'm going to ask you again to just give us a sense of what your rap was.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's true."}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 9, "text": "The pitch, yeah - when you were a carnival barker.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, the pitch I used as a..."}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 10, "text": "What is a 10-in-one show?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's called the bally, more technically, on the platform. Yeah, I ran a 10-in-one show for..."}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 11, "text": "Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It means 10 attractions under a single tent."}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 12, "text": "Did you write that yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "See Adam and Eve, boy and girl, brother and sister, all in one - one of the world's three living morphodites (ph) who will expose itself, not to be rude or vulgar but to show you one of mother nature'"}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 13, "text": "Now, didn't you do an electric chair act with a woman?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, far from writing it. It's very much part of an oral tradition, including the mispronunciation of words like morphodite for hermaphrodite and corious (ph) for curious. And, you know, often, you kno"}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 14, "text": "And so it would look like she was getting electrified?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. Yeah, as part of that carnival. The electric chair was, basically, a woman sat in a chair, and you would walk up to her and hold an electric lightbulb or a fluorescent bulb to various parts of "}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 15, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then there was another thing that we did with the girl afterwards, which was called the blow off, which is you then put the girl in a box. You put her in this box and then take her dress off while"}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 16, "text": "So how did she light up when you would hold the lightbulb on her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know? So it was, you know, yet another con on top of the con."}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 17, "text": "You were introduced to magic, I think, by your grandfather when you were a kid. What was his magic act like?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're remembering Ricky Jay, the master sleight of hand artist who died on Saturday. Let's get back to his conversation with Terry Gross recorded onstage in 1998."}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 18, "text": "And did he teach you things?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he didn't so much do an act. At times he did. During the Second World War, he did perform for servicemen. He did USO shows. And so I imagine he did an act then. But that's before I was born. He "}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 19, "text": "Like Slydini.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, absolutely, yeah, very specifically, absolutely. And then not only did he, but he got the great people of the day who were also his friends and his teachers to spend time with me, as well."}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 20, "text": "Who was Slydini?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like Slydini."}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 21, "text": "Now, you're semi-famous for not liking children very much. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Slydini, Quintino Marucci, was an Italian man who lived in the city who did this wonderfully poetic magic and was a wonderfully artistic fellow. I mean, he actually made me in those years - he w"}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 22, "text": "And I think you've been known to even end a performance if there were too many children in the audience. Do you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I always wondered about an epitaph. I guess we've got it now. I don't know."}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 23, "text": "No", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're not going to tell that story about me killing hundreds of them?"}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 24, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're not going to tell that story about me killing hundreds of them?"}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 25, "text": "Oh, that story. What is it about children when you are performing that is problematic for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're not going to tell that story about me killing hundreds of them?"}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 26, "text": "Now, what kind of kid were you when you were doing magic? I mean, did...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's pretty simple. It has nothing to do with the children. It has to do with having an art which I take seriously and which has existed since the beginning of time written off as an entertain"}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 27, "text": "You were never...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was never a child."}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 28, "text": "I should mention that you had a magician at your bar mitzvah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was never a child."}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 29, "text": "What was his name? Al?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Should you? Yes. You should mention."}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 30, "text": "Yeah. And I think he ran the magic store that you frequented?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Al Flosso. Yeah."}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 31, "text": "Did he make your yarmulke disappear?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But more than ran a magic - Al Flosso was one of the great magicians who ever lived. I mean, this was actually the - I think I say in Mark Singer's piece, the only kind memory I ever had of my parents"}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 32, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But more than ran a magic - Al Flosso was one of the great magicians who ever lived. I mean, this was actually the - I think I say in Mark Singer's piece, the only kind memory I ever had of my parents"}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 33, "text": "You...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". No. But..."}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 34, "text": "Now, did you think you'd be able to make a living...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". No. But..."}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 35, "text": "You could make my notes disappear, probably, too. How did you end up in the carnival?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure you don't want to switch the papers and go to a new page here, Terry?"}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 36, "text": "Now, when you started doing magic professionally, I think it was in the 1960s or '70s. And it was during what was in part, you know, like the LSD - or a lot of people in your audience were probably hallucinating while you were performing this sleight of hand stuff. It must have been a pretty strange time, in a way, to be doing magic.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was the job description, I might add - conducting turtle races, all the usual stuff. I got a call one day from this guy. I mean, he tracked me down to this bar and said that someone had dropped o"}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 37, "text": "That's true. You were 7, I think, when you started performing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one of the jobs - I mean, I was doing it professionally quite young, doing TV and stuff."}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 38, "text": "They must have just read all of this stuff into what you were doing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I dare say, you know, most of the people who were watching it were blazed out of their minds. And it was a very peculiar experience. I'm not unhappy that I did it. And I - sure."}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 39, "text": "Now, a lot of what you've learned, you've learned from actually knowing con men. How did you find them?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's 1998 interview with master magician and author and actor Ricky Jay. He died last Saturday at the age of 72. Their "}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 40, "text": "Yeah, no, exactly. Exactly. I mean, a magician performs. You know where to find them. What about a con man?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I guess it was that ad in the New York Times."}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 41, "text": "But where - I mean, carnivals, carnivals? How can I find a con man?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I will say that. You meet people with like interests somehow, and then you do."}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 42, "text": "Would I be a good mark? Would I be a good mark, you think? Are there certain people who are good marks?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, one will find you."}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 43, "text": "Isn't there a part of you that, instead of just not telling how you do things, really wants to say, this is how I do it; this is how I figured out how to do it? Like, isn't there a part in magicians that would really like to kind of brag about how they do what they do instead of hiding it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a difficult question to answer. I think we're all susceptible to being marks unless, as I said before, we're so callous and so jaded that we trust no one in their lives. And I imagine that you ar"}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 44, "text": "But you can't.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely is the answer. Absolutely. There are times where you're crying to tell someone, well, look what I just - you know, you really want to do that. You absolutely do."}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 45, "text": "Who's also a magician.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But you can't. I think - yeah, I think you can't. You go home and tell your friend, you know, your best friend, you know..."}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 46, "text": "Ricky Jay, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The late Ricky Jay speaking with Terry Gross in 1998. The first time Ricky Jay appeared on FRESH AIR was in 1987, when he had just published his book \"Learned Pigs & Fireproof Women.\""}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 47, "text": "Before we talk about your work as a magician and your knowledge of con artists, let's talk about some of the people in your new book. I want to ask you about John Cummings, who really", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks."}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 48, "text": "- he was a knife swallower who literally swallowed knives whole.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks."}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 49, "text": "And apparently, when they did the autopsy on him, they found about 14 knives embedded in his stomach.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I guess the most interesting thing about John Cummings is he was a sailor - an American sailor - on some boats in Europe. And he no doubt witnessed the performance of a French magician who prete"}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 50, "text": "Going to ask you about somebody else that's in your book. And this is Johnny Eck, who some of our listeners might also know as one of the actors in \"Freaks.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's - he actually once swallowed so many knives that he began this fairly visible emaciation in the weeks that followed his last knife-eating bout. And the autopsy did reveal these knives all"}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 51, "text": "Now, you're also interested in con games. Do you consider magic a conning act?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I find this literally the single most bizarre tale in the annals of conjuring. What happened was that in the 1930s and '40s, a magician named Rajah Raboid used to work a fairly large illusion show. Ac"}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 52, "text": "Are there interesting swindles going on on city streets today?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I at times feel that I have to draw the line. I mean, here we are talking about freaks and cons and all sorts of fields with some sort of pejorative connotation. And yet I believe that"}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 53, "text": "Things like Three-Card Monte.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, sure. I mean, the things - one of the observations that I try to make in the book - and I don't spend a lot of time doing that. I mean, mostly, I'm just presenting facts about people. But it doe"}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 54, "text": "Have you ever gone up to swindlers or conmen and tried to beat them at their own game?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Three-Card Monte doesn't go back that far. That's a fairly recent origin. But the three-shell game, which is a version of thimble rigging, goes back to - I've been trying to trace it back to the 17th "}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 55, "text": "What kind of venues have you come up with to perform your magic act in? Where did you start establishing yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a very dangerous thing to do. It's a very bad thing to do. I think there are some people in this field who think that if they're magicians and know something about this, this is a great opportuni"}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 56, "text": "Is close-up magic more difficult because the person's eyes are that close to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I've really run the gamut. I mean, early years where I would just do close-up magic, I rebelled against being on a stage. And I would wear - I think when I did \"The Tonight Show\" the first time "}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 57, "text": "You quote your grandfather who said that - he was a magician, and he said he never played with cards because if he lost, he was thought to be an incompetent magician. And if he won, he was suspected to be a cheater. I was figuring that would probably be true with dice also.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We're listening back to Terry's interviews with Ricky Jay, the master magician who died last Saturday at age 72. Terry interviewed him for the final time in 2002 after the publication of his book call"}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 58, "text": "How are loaded dice made? Like, what makes - what's the principle there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it is. I think I actually mention it in that aspect in the book because of the same thing - of people being suspected of being cheaters if they simply won. I mean, that bears to mind one of, I t"}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 59, "text": "You actually reprint a quote from - it's a craps dealer, and his rapper has come on. Do you have your book with you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the principle is that a foreign substance is placed into the dice at some specific spot to make it favor the throwing of certain points so - I think that's a reasonably accurate analysis of this"}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 60, "text": "Can I ask you to page - turn to Page 38? Maybe you know this by heart.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 61, "text": "Thanks.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I'd be happy to do this for you."}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 62, "text": "What year is that from?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) Ladies and gentlemen, get your money down. It's betting time. The hard six and the hard eight gets you 7-1. The hard 10, the hard four gets you 8-1. I repeat, get your money down. It's betti"}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 63, "text": "Why do you think the underworld and illicit activities have always had their own language?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Boy, I would guess that that's probably the litany of a craps dealer in the '50s or '60s - you know, just somebody doing their spiel, trying to get someone to lay down money in a casino situation."}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 64, "text": "So that they can talk in code and no one will understand.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this becomes a very complex question and one for someone whose skills are in areas other than mine. But I think the general thing that you hear is the idea that this language is used to be exclu"}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 65, "text": "Before you became a master of the con game and a historian of the con, were you ever taken - I mean, when you started to really love this stuff before you knew how it worked, did you play three-card monte and lose all the time? Did you play dice with people who were cheating but you didn't quite know how, so you were losing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right - and then the concept of the office, which is giving a signal. It's a wonderful 18th-century term that's still used by gamblers all the time. It's a method of communicating from one gambler to "}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 66, "text": "Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let me say that I have been in card games and games of chance in which people were moving. That's the correct term. People were absolutely moving. And sometimes, you can determine it while it's happen"}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 67, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because they're clearly suckers. Anybody can be cheated."}
{"id": "672210854", "date": "2018-11-30", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "Remembering Master Magician And Sleight-Of-Hand Artist Ricky Jay", "question_index": 68, "text": "Well, Ricky Jay - a real pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, they're just levels and new work that's being done all the time."}
{"id": "673696589", "date": "2018-12-05", "guest": "Mark Griffin", "title": "'All That Heaven Allows' Examines Rock Hudson's Life As A Closeted Leading Man", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. It used to be unthinkable for a Hollywood star to come out as gay. But if you stayed in the closet, you could be blackmailed. Gay celebrities often faced serious personal consequences for being forced to live a double life. A good example of that is Rock Hudson. In the 1950s and '60s, he was considered an all-American, hetero heartthrob, the leading man in romantic melodramas like \"All That Heaven Allows\" and \"Magnificent Obsession\" and romantic comedies like \"Pillow Talk\" and \"Lover Come Back.\" He starred with James Dean and Elizabeth Taylor in the film \"Giant.\" In the '70s, he starred in the TV series \"McMillan & Wife\" as the police commissioner of San Francisco. His secret was successfully concealed from the public until he was dying of causes related to AIDS. In 1985, he died at the age of 59. It was a turning point in the public awareness of the AIDS epidemic. As playwright William Hoffman put it, Hudson's death made people realize AIDS is a disease, not a moral affliction. My guest Mark Griffin is the author of a new biography of Rock Hudson called \"All That Heaven Allows.\" Griffin's previous book was a biography of film director Vincente Minnelli. Mark Griffin, welcome to FRESH AIR. Reading your book about Rock Hudson, I was thinking how painful it must have been for him to be one of Hollywood's leading men, one of the most, quote, \"eligible bachelors\" while being a closeted gay man. Do you have any insights into, like, the emotional distress it must have caused him to have to hide who he really was?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "673696589", "date": "2018-12-05", "guest": "Mark Griffin", "title": "'All That Heaven Allows' Examines Rock Hudson's Life As A Closeted Leading Man", "question_index": 1, "text": "Well, it sounds - (unintelligible) from your book, it sounds like even when he was growing up, his stepfather would punish him any time the stepfather thought that any gesture or activity that Rock Hudson - who was then Roy Fitzgerald", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's really interesting that if you read or look at interviews that Rock conducted over a long span of time, many decades, this one particular phrase, as I mention in the book, keeps coming up: I just"}
{"id": "673696589", "date": "2018-12-05", "guest": "Mark Griffin", "title": "'All That Heaven Allows' Examines Rock Hudson's Life As A Closeted Leading Man", "question_index": 2, "text": "- was engaging in was at all effeminate. So he learned early on to act straight.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's really interesting that if you read or look at interviews that Rock conducted over a long span of time, many decades, this one particular phrase, as I mention in the book, keeps coming up: I just"}
{"id": "673696589", "date": "2018-12-05", "guest": "Mark Griffin", "title": "'All That Heaven Allows' Examines Rock Hudson's Life As A Closeted Leading Man", "question_index": 3, "text": "When Rock Hudson was still Roy Fitzgerald, he was discovered by Henry Willson, who was also gay. What was Henry Willson's role in Hollywood?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Most people assume that this reconditioning of Roy Fitzgerald, former truck driver from Winnetka, Ill., into this Hollywood Adonis began when he met his notorious but very influential agent Hen"}
{"id": "673696589", "date": "2018-12-05", "guest": "Mark Griffin", "title": "'All That Heaven Allows' Examines Rock Hudson's Life As A Closeted Leading Man", "question_index": 4, "text": "So just to clarify, was Henry Willson an agent, a manager, a casting - like, who - what was his official role?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was a very influential figure in Hollywood, which is interesting when you think, you know, here's a gay man who was - I wouldn't say overt, but he wasn't as closeted as some of the actors had to be"}
{"id": "673696589", "date": "2018-12-05", "guest": "Mark Griffin", "title": "'All That Heaven Allows' Examines Rock Hudson's Life As A Closeted Leading Man", "question_index": 5, "text": "How much did the agent Henry Willson manage Rock Hudson's off-screen life to create the image in real life that Rock Hudson had on-screen, you know, as this, you know, romantic, heterosexual, strong, heroic, romantic figure?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was an agent, and he had started in the business writing for some of the fan magazines of the time. And I think that sort of gave Henry Willson an insider glimpse as to how to sell someone to the p"}
{"id": "673696589", "date": "2018-12-05", "guest": "Mark Griffin", "title": "'All That Heaven Allows' Examines Rock Hudson's Life As A Closeted Leading Man", "question_index": 6, "text": "Did Willson set Rock Hudson up with dates for - to be seen in public so he'd look like - oh, he has such attractive girlfriends and what an exciting bachelor life he leads?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think a fair degree of influence. And this was true not only of Rock but many of the other actors that were in Henry Willson's stable. And you can look at this two ways. You know, some people tell m"}
{"id": "673696589", "date": "2018-12-05", "guest": "Mark Griffin", "title": "'All That Heaven Allows' Examines Rock Hudson's Life As A Closeted Leading Man", "question_index": 7, "text": "Can you give us an example of a magazine story about Rock Hudson that presented the illusion of Rock Hudson?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do think that was Henry Willson, and I also think that - it's a little bit of a - is the word conspiracy that I want to use? It's the - Universal, as Rock's studio, is having a hand in this. It's th"}
{"id": "673696589", "date": "2018-12-05", "guest": "Mark Griffin", "title": "'All That Heaven Allows' Examines Rock Hudson's Life As A Closeted Leading Man", "question_index": 8, "text": "And I should just interject here. Vera-Ellen was an actress who starred in some musicals like \"White Christmas\" and \"Words And Music.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the first example that comes to mind in terms of how Rock Hudson was sort of sold to the public, if you will, dates to the early 1950s. And Henry Willson was influential in having Rock and Vera-"}
{"id": "673696589", "date": "2018-12-05", "guest": "Mark Griffin", "title": "'All That Heaven Allows' Examines Rock Hudson's Life As A Closeted Leading Man", "question_index": 9, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Mark Griffin. And he's the author of a new biography of Rock Hudson called \"All That Heaven Allows.\" We'll be right back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Words And Music,\" yeah. She danced with Fred Astaire and Gene Kelly. She had quite a career. And - so it wasn't enough for them just to attend this ball. Henry Willson, I think, had the idea that the"}
{"id": "673696589", "date": "2018-12-05", "guest": "Mark Griffin", "title": "'All That Heaven Allows' Examines Rock Hudson's Life As A Closeted Leading Man", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Mark Griffin. He's the author of a new biography of Rock Hudson that's called \"All That Heaven Allows.\" And it's not only about Rock Hudson's movies and how he became a leading man. A lot of it is about how Rock Hudson was closeted throughout his life and how that worked in Hollywood, how that worked for him and other gay actors. So magazines often presented an illusion of Rock Hudson. But some of the magazines were also very threatening to Rock Hudson and to other closeted actors in Hollywood because they could blackmail you. Was Rock Hudson ever blackmailed by one of the tabloids?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Words And Music,\" yeah. She danced with Fred Astaire and Gene Kelly. She had quite a career. And - so it wasn't enough for them just to attend this ball. Henry Willson, I think, had the idea that the"}
{"id": "673696589", "date": "2018-12-05", "guest": "Mark Griffin", "title": "'All That Heaven Allows' Examines Rock Hudson's Life As A Closeted Leading Man", "question_index": 11, "text": "In setting up this story, you said, supposedly, here's how this story goes. So are you, like, not sure whether Henry Willson really did this or not - whether he really did sell out the other two actors to help Rock Hudson?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. It came very close to that. The classic example of Rock being blackmailed - or threatened is probably the better term - was Confidential magazine. Now very notorious, it launched in 1952. And I t"}
{"id": "673696589", "date": "2018-12-05", "guest": "Mark Griffin", "title": "'All That Heaven Allows' Examines Rock Hudson's Life As A Closeted Leading Man", "question_index": 12, "text": "And who's the we and the us that you're referring to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is sort of the legend that has been passed down to us, the behind-the-scenes legend of how this played out. And it sounds very credible based on how we know that Henry Willson operated within the"}
{"id": "673696589", "date": "2018-12-05", "guest": "Mark Griffin", "title": "'All That Heaven Allows' Examines Rock Hudson's Life As A Closeted Leading Man", "question_index": 13, "text": "So do you think that most people in Hollywood who knew Rock Hudson understood that he was gay but also understood that it was their job to keep his secret?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, the proverbial we. You know, this story has been written in other books. It's been talked about in other documentaries. I think this is the accepted version, Terry, of what happened. But do I know"}
{"id": "673696589", "date": "2018-12-05", "guest": "Mark Griffin", "title": "'All That Heaven Allows' Examines Rock Hudson's Life As A Closeted Leading Man", "question_index": 14, "text": "So Rock Hudson was married for three years to Phyllis Gates. Was that, like - what were you able to learn about - because this is a kind of question that I still think exists. Like, was it a for-real marriage? Was it a stage marriage? Did she know that he was gay? How much did she understand about that? What were you able to find out about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I think it was very much an open secret in Hollywood that all of the costars that Rock worked with or, certainly, most of them and directors and production folks knew that Rock was gay. And as on"}
{"id": "673696589", "date": "2018-12-05", "guest": "Mark Griffin", "title": "'All That Heaven Allows' Examines Rock Hudson's Life As A Closeted Leading Man", "question_index": 15, "text": "My guest is Mark Griffin, author of the new biography of Rock Hudson called \"All That Heaven Allows.\" We'll talk more after a break. And David Bianculli will review Season 2 of the series \"The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel.\" The first season won a bunch of Emmys, including outstanding comedy series. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What's fascinating is you can talk to 20 different people about the marriage between Rock Hudson and Phyllis Gates and get 20 different versions of what each individual believes actually happened ther"}
{"id": "673696589", "date": "2018-12-05", "guest": "Mark Griffin", "title": "'All That Heaven Allows' Examines Rock Hudson's Life As A Closeted Leading Man", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to our interview with Mark Griffin, author of a new biography of Rock Hudson, who was a leading man, a heartthrob in movies of the '50s and '60s, including melodramas like \"Magnificent Obsession\" and \"All That Heaven Allows\" and romantic comedies like \"Pillow Talk\" and \"Lover Come Back.\" But he was forced to lead a double life because he was gay and had the public known that, his career would have been over. He died of AIDS-related causes in 1985. When we left off, we were talking about his brief marriage to Phyllis Gates. When Phyllis Gates and Rock Hudson were divorcing, she hired a private detective. And he had somebody tape one of her conversations with Rock Hudson. And you transcribed it 'cause this became a pretty famous tape, I suppose. And it became described as Rock Hudson's gay confession. So I'm going to read an excerpt of the transcript of that. She says, how long after we were married did you have your first homosexual affair? And he says, oh, I don't know, the next day. And she says, can you deny that your pattern is that of a homosexual? And Hudson, crying, says, no, I can't deny it, but I never felt we were together on anything. I never felt you loved me. And I guess I'm reading that excerpt because it's just kind of painful, the things he was leaving himself exposed to as, you know, a famous gay person who had to keep his identity hidden.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What's fascinating is you can talk to 20 different people about the marriage between Rock Hudson and Phyllis Gates and get 20 different versions of what each individual believes actually happened ther"}
{"id": "673696589", "date": "2018-12-05", "guest": "Mark Griffin", "title": "'All That Heaven Allows' Examines Rock Hudson's Life As A Closeted Leading Man", "question_index": 17, "text": "I also feel like I have to bring up that she told the judge during the divorce hearings that Rock Hudson had struck her twice, both times after he'd been drinking heavily. I don't know if that's ever been substantiated. But, you know, that would be very disturbing, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's very sad, and it's very poignant to hear that - and also to pair that with the knowledge that he didn't even know that he was being recorded at that moment. So he's sort of baring his sou"}
{"id": "673696589", "date": "2018-12-05", "guest": "Mark Griffin", "title": "'All That Heaven Allows' Examines Rock Hudson's Life As A Closeted Leading Man", "question_index": 18, "text": "Any perspective, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is. It is, particularly - no matter from today's perspective or when it..."}
{"id": "673696589", "date": "2018-12-05", "guest": "Mark Griffin", "title": "'All That Heaven Allows' Examines Rock Hudson's Life As A Closeted Leading Man", "question_index": 19, "text": "Not good.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Supposedly - exactly, yes."}
{"id": "673696589", "date": "2018-12-05", "guest": "Mark Griffin", "title": "'All That Heaven Allows' Examines Rock Hudson's Life As A Closeted Leading Man", "question_index": 20, "text": "In \"Pillow Talk,\" which is a romantic comedy where he stars opposite Doris Day, they share a party line. And she thinks that he's just a womanizer and has, like, a lot of disdain for him. And he kind of plays this practical joke on her in which he warns Doris Day that somebody else might actually be a gay man - the person who she's been, you know, flirting with and who she has this big crush on. And then - but that person - you explain it. It's complicated.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, they did have some pretty volatile arguments, Phyllis says in her memoir. Again, I wasn't there, so I can't comment. I can't say for certain that this happened or didn't happen. I would say "}
{"id": "673696589", "date": "2018-12-05", "guest": "Mark Griffin", "title": "'All That Heaven Allows' Examines Rock Hudson's Life As A Closeted Leading Man", "question_index": 21, "text": "Yeah, me too. Let's just hear that scene where he's impersonating being gay. So here he is. Here's Rock Hudson and Doris Day in a scene from \"Pillow Talk.\" (SOUNDBITE OF FILM, \"PILLOW TALK\")", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Laughter) So in \"Pillow Talk,\" you have - Rock is playing a womanizing song writer. And he shares a party line, which I don't know if contemporary listeners will know what that is. Right? - where you"}
{"id": "673696589", "date": "2018-12-05", "guest": "Mark Griffin", "title": "'All That Heaven Allows' Examines Rock Hudson's Life As A Closeted Leading Man", "question_index": 22, "text": "What's really just so difficult about that scene is not only is Rock Hudson straight, impersonating being gay in that, but it's all based on gay stereotypes of, you know, like, he's too attached to his mother. He drinks with his pinky up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Brad) I'd love to. Thank you. Ain't these tasty? Wonder if I could get the recipe - sure would like to surprise my ma when I go back home."}
{"id": "673696589", "date": "2018-12-05", "guest": "Mark Griffin", "title": "'All That Heaven Allows' Examines Rock Hudson's Life As A Closeted Leading Man", "question_index": 23, "text": "You know, he's shy around women. So yeah, I'd love to know what was going through his mind during that. Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Mark Griffin. And he's the author of a new biography of Rock Hudson called \"All That Heaven Allows.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR. (SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "673696589", "date": "2018-12-05", "guest": "Mark Griffin", "title": "'All That Heaven Allows' Examines Rock Hudson's Life As A Closeted Leading Man", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Mark Griffin, author of a new biography of Rock Hudson called \"All That Heaven Allows.\" And it's about his movies and his place in Hollywood as a leading man in action films and a romantic leading man in dramas and romantic comedies. But it's also about how he was gay and what it was like for him as a closeted gay man in Hollywood. And it offers a lot of insights into what Hollywood was like for other gay men in Hollywood at the time. Rock Hudson died of causes related to AIDS, and he has a big place in the history of the AIDS epidemic. Is it fair to say he's the first, like, really, really famous person to die of AIDS?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "673696589", "date": "2018-12-05", "guest": "Mark Griffin", "title": "'All That Heaven Allows' Examines Rock Hudson's Life As A Closeted Leading Man", "question_index": 25, "text": "Yes, well-put.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I think it is fair to say - first high-profile celebrity that acknowledged that they had AIDS and that..."}
{"id": "673696589", "date": "2018-12-05", "guest": "Mark Griffin", "title": "'All That Heaven Allows' Examines Rock Hudson's Life As A Closeted Leading Man", "question_index": 26, "text": "Yeah. When did he learn he had AIDS?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...In fact, he was dying of it."}
{"id": "673696589", "date": "2018-12-05", "guest": "Mark Griffin", "title": "'All That Heaven Allows' Examines Rock Hudson's Life As A Closeted Leading Man", "question_index": 27, "text": "About the early days of the AIDS epidemic.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In June of 1984 is when he received the official diagnosis. He had gone to a dermatologist to kind of have this pimple or blemish on his neck looked at. And that turned out to be, sadly, Kaposi sarcom"}
{"id": "673696589", "date": "2018-12-05", "guest": "Mark Griffin", "title": "'All That Heaven Allows' Examines Rock Hudson's Life As A Closeted Leading Man", "question_index": 28, "text": "The Reagan administration.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, thank you. He said there was AIDS before Rock Hudson and there was AIDS after. And I think that what he was getting at there is the fact that it took a high-profile celebrity, a beloved movie ico"}
{"id": "673696589", "date": "2018-12-05", "guest": "Mark Griffin", "title": "'All That Heaven Allows' Examines Rock Hudson's Life As A Closeted Leading Man", "question_index": 29, "text": "It's interesting that President Reagan, who for a long time had, you know, paid - I think it's fair to say - virtually no or very little attention to the AIDS epidemic - I assume he knew Rock Hudson because Rock Hudson had played opposite Jane Wyman in a couple of films. And Jane Wyman had been married - Jane Wyman was Ronald Reagan's first wife, before Nancy Reagan.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Reagan administration, yes - had recommended a $10 million cut in AIDS spending in the federal budget. And after Hudson's death, there was suddenly this about-face, and the House of Representatives an"}
{"id": "673696589", "date": "2018-12-05", "guest": "Mark Griffin", "title": "'All That Heaven Allows' Examines Rock Hudson's Life As A Closeted Leading Man", "question_index": 30, "text": "Was it HIV that actually outed Rock Hudson?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And I think Rock was friends of both Ronald and Nancy Reagan. I don't know how close, but he attended state dinners at the White House. And there are lots of photos that you can see on the Inte"}
{"id": "673696589", "date": "2018-12-05", "guest": "Mark Griffin", "title": "'All That Heaven Allows' Examines Rock Hudson's Life As A Closeted Leading Man", "question_index": 31, "text": "Do you think that Rock Hudson's story is an important part, not only of Hollywood history but of gay history?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this is interesting. Yanou Collart is the French publicist and a friend of Rock's who actually made this announcement outside of the American Hospital of Paris that Rock was battling the disease"}
{"id": "673696589", "date": "2018-12-05", "guest": "Mark Griffin", "title": "'All That Heaven Allows' Examines Rock Hudson's Life As A Closeted Leading Man", "question_index": 32, "text": "So Rock Hudson was a movie star. Do you think he was a good actor?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely - and not only because of the AIDS part of his story. But I think there's - in a sense, he is a reluctant role model, if we want to use that term, that when this situation occurred in 1985 "}
{"id": "673696589", "date": "2018-12-05", "guest": "Mark Griffin", "title": "'All That Heaven Allows' Examines Rock Hudson's Life As A Closeted Leading Man", "question_index": 33, "text": "Since we are approaching Christmas, do you have a favorite Christmas film? I figure you've seen a gazillion films over the years. And I'm going to guess which one it is. And I'm going to guess that it's \"Meet Me In St. Louis\" because your previous book was about Vincente Minnelli, who...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do. And I think as time wore on, he got better and better as he got older. And what's a little bit sad to me is that just as he was hitting his stride as an actor in a film like \"Seconds,\" sort of h"}
{"id": "673696589", "date": "2018-12-05", "guest": "Mark Griffin", "title": "'All That Heaven Allows' Examines Rock Hudson's Life As A Closeted Leading Man", "question_index": 34, "text": "...Directed it. (LAUGHTER)", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right on the money, yes."}
{"id": "673696589", "date": "2018-12-05", "guest": "Mark Griffin", "title": "'All That Heaven Allows' Examines Rock Hudson's Life As A Closeted Leading Man", "question_index": 35, "text": "And it stars Judy Garland and has great songs in it, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right on the money, yes."}
{"id": "673696589", "date": "2018-12-05", "guest": "Mark Griffin", "title": "'All That Heaven Allows' Examines Rock Hudson's Life As A Closeted Leading Man", "question_index": 36, "text": "...\"Have Yourself A Merry Little Christmas.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, in fact, the..."}
{"id": "673696589", "date": "2018-12-05", "guest": "Mark Griffin", "title": "'All That Heaven Allows' Examines Rock Hudson's Life As A Closeted Leading Man", "question_index": 37, "text": "Mark Griffin, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. That's the movie that introduced that timeless, Christmas classic. And it's interesting that that is a movie that gets shown around the holidays, even though it's just - one segment of it is "}
{"id": "673696589", "date": "2018-12-05", "guest": "Mark Griffin", "title": "'All That Heaven Allows' Examines Rock Hudson's Life As A Closeted Leading Man", "question_index": 38, "text": "Mark Griffin is the author of a new biography of Rock Hudson called \"All That Heaven Allows.\" After we take a short break, David Bianculli will review Season 2 of \"The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel.\" The first season won the Emmy for Outstanding Comedy Series. This is FRESH AIR. (SOUNDBITE OF HANK JONES AND FRANK WESS' \"A HANKERIN'\")", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you, Terry. It's been a great pleasure. I appreciate it."}
{"id": "674160899", "date": "2018-12-06", "guest": "Lucas Hedges", "title": "Actor Lucas Hedges On 'Ben is Back', ADHD And Crying On Screen", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest Lucas Hedges was still a teenager when he was nominated for an Oscar for his supporting role in the 2016 movie, \"Manchester By The Sea.\" He played a 16-year-old who loses his bearings after his father dies and names the boy's uncle as his guardian. Last year, in Greta Gerwig's film, \"Lady Bird,\" Hedges played a teenager who realizes he's gay and is afraid to tell anyone. Now at the age of 21, Hedges is in three new movies. In \"Mid90s,\" he plays a teenager who brutally bullies his younger brother. In \"Boy Erased,\" for which he just got nominated for a Best Actor Golden Globe, he plays a teenager whose parents send him off to Christian gay conversion therapy. His third new movie, \"Ben Is Back,\" opens this Friday. It was written and directed by Hedges' father, Peter Hedges. Lucas Hedges stars as a 19-year-old who's in rehab for an addiction to painkillers and heroin. When he stuns his parents and siblings by showing up unannounced on Christmas Eve, they're worried this means trouble for him and for the whole family. He says he's gotten permission to leave the rehab facility for the holiday, but it's hard for the family and for us in the audience to know when he's telling the truth. At one point, he tells his mother she needs to take him to a 12-step meeting right away. Here he is at the meeting.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "674160899", "date": "2018-12-06", "guest": "Lucas Hedges", "title": "Actor Lucas Hedges On 'Ben is Back', ADHD And Crying On Screen", "question_index": 1, "text": "Lucas Hedges, welcome to FRESH AIR. So your father Peter Hedges wrote and directed \"Ben Is Back.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Ben) And that's my most ever. So I just want to get to 78 right now. So I called my sponsor. And the thing about my sponsor is that he's a - he's a loud talker. And so I say, hey. And he goes, wha"}
{"id": "674160899", "date": "2018-12-06", "guest": "Lucas Hedges", "title": "Actor Lucas Hedges On 'Ben is Back', ADHD And Crying On Screen", "question_index": 2, "text": "And I'm going to quote something he said. He said that the screenplay was inspired by drug problems in the family. He said, quote, \"I come from a family that has been deeply impacted by addiction, both alcohol and drugs. Some in my family recovered. Some didn't make it. And some family members are still struggling. So after I suffered the loss of someone close to me and watched another person I knew in recovery, I wanted to make a film that explores how one broken, hurting person can impact all the members of his family.\" So I don't want to pry or go beyond what's comfortable to talk about, but were these, like, family addiction problems, problems you were aware of and observed yourself as a child? I don't know how distant in the family tree these problems are.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "674160899", "date": "2018-12-06", "guest": "Lucas Hedges", "title": "Actor Lucas Hedges On 'Ben is Back', ADHD And Crying On Screen", "question_index": 3, "text": "So she left the family when your father was young?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. My grandmother was an alcoholic and left my father and his family when he was very young. And it left a very big imprint on his life. And I think he would say it's part of the reason why he's so"}
{"id": "674160899", "date": "2018-12-06", "guest": "Lucas Hedges", "title": "Actor Lucas Hedges On 'Ben is Back', ADHD And Crying On Screen", "question_index": 4, "text": "Did they reconcile afterwards, after she got sober?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "674160899", "date": "2018-12-06", "guest": "Lucas Hedges", "title": "Actor Lucas Hedges On 'Ben is Back', ADHD And Crying On Screen", "question_index": 5, "text": "In \"Ben Is Back,\" you play a 19-year-old who has been in and out of rehab. And you've come home for Christmas, surprising your family, who think that you really belong in rehab, and you probably shouldn't be home and that it's going to be trouble. And of course, there's plenty of trouble. You've said - and I'm going to paraphrase here - but you've said in another interview that you knew people, your peers, who had become addicted to drugs. And you thought it had to do with the fact that they took prescription drugs, like Adderall, when they were in school. That's one of the drugs for attention deficit hyperactivity disorder. Do you feel like you've seen, like, drugs like those damage people, your peers, who were on them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it feels as though they reconciled their relationship. I honestly feel like you'd have to ask my dad. I imagine maybe there's something tricky about having a very complicated relationship with y"}
{"id": "674160899", "date": "2018-12-06", "guest": "Lucas Hedges", "title": "Actor Lucas Hedges On 'Ben is Back', ADHD And Crying On Screen", "question_index": 6, "text": "How do you wish it had been tapped at the time instead of through drugs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was prescribed Adderall. And I took Adderall, and honestly, like, Adderall did not help me do any more work. I took Adderall, and I would end up just sitting on my couch high. It was such an o"}
{"id": "674160899", "date": "2018-12-06", "guest": "Lucas Hedges", "title": "Actor Lucas Hedges On 'Ben is Back', ADHD And Crying On Screen", "question_index": 7, "text": "So you know, in \"Mid90s,\" which is a movie about, like, a young skateboarder - and he - I think he's around 12 in it. And this was the movie written and directed by Jonah Hill. You play his big brother. And you're being raised by a single mother. And you, as the older brother, you beat up your younger brother, like - and I don't mean in a big-brotherly kind of loving way. I mean, like, you really beat him up like this is a gang fight.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the tricky thing is that I don't think I would have been interested, at that point in my life, in exploring any alternatives. That's what I'm interested in now. So I had to go on my own journey "}
{"id": "674160899", "date": "2018-12-06", "guest": "Lucas Hedges", "title": "Actor Lucas Hedges On 'Ben is Back', ADHD And Crying On Screen", "question_index": 8, "text": "You know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the tricky thing is that I don't think I would have been interested, at that point in my life, in exploring any alternatives. That's what I'm interested in now. So I had to go on my own journey "}
{"id": "674160899", "date": "2018-12-06", "guest": "Lucas Hedges", "title": "Actor Lucas Hedges On 'Ben is Back', ADHD And Crying On Screen", "question_index": 9, "text": "So did it come naturally to you to be in a position where, like, you're beating somebody up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "674160899", "date": "2018-12-06", "guest": "Lucas Hedges", "title": "Actor Lucas Hedges On 'Ben is Back', ADHD And Crying On Screen", "question_index": 10, "text": "You cry in movies. I mean, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- I don't know what - how I would have reacted, but I imagine it would have been pretty severe."}
{"id": "674160899", "date": "2018-12-06", "guest": "Lucas Hedges", "title": "Actor Lucas Hedges On 'Ben is Back', ADHD And Crying On Screen", "question_index": 11, "text": "Let's see. You cry in \"Lady Bird.\" You cry in - you sob in \"Manchester By The Sea.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "674160899", "date": "2018-12-06", "guest": "Lucas Hedges", "title": "Actor Lucas Hedges On 'Ben is Back', ADHD And Crying On Screen", "question_index": 12, "text": "And in \"Ben Is Back\" you cry, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "674160899", "date": "2018-12-06", "guest": "Lucas Hedges", "title": "Actor Lucas Hedges On 'Ben is Back', ADHD And Crying On Screen", "question_index": 13, "text": "So does that come easily to you on film, like it does in real life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Ben Is Back\" and \"Boy Erased,\" too, yeah."}
{"id": "674160899", "date": "2018-12-06", "guest": "Lucas Hedges", "title": "Actor Lucas Hedges On 'Ben is Back', ADHD And Crying On Screen", "question_index": 14, "text": "Whoa, that is interesting", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's very interesting because since I started crying in movies, I've stopped crying in my life."}
{"id": "674160899", "date": "2018-12-06", "guest": "Lucas Hedges", "title": "Actor Lucas Hedges On 'Ben is Back', ADHD And Crying On Screen", "question_index": 15, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's very interesting because since I started crying in movies, I've stopped crying in my life."}
{"id": "674160899", "date": "2018-12-06", "guest": "Lucas Hedges", "title": "Actor Lucas Hedges On 'Ben is Back', ADHD And Crying On Screen", "question_index": 16, "text": "So when you cry for a scene, is that hard to do? Do you have to summon up, like, real emotions that would have made you cry earlier?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah - or I don't cry as much. And maybe it's because I'm not - I don't find myself in situations anymore - you know, I'm not a kid. And when I was a kid, things were somehow more volatile. And I'm no"}
{"id": "674160899", "date": "2018-12-06", "guest": "Lucas Hedges", "title": "Actor Lucas Hedges On 'Ben is Back', ADHD And Crying On Screen", "question_index": 17, "text": "When you'd cry in real life, when you were younger, was it embarrassing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I always find it's the thing I stress out about most, but it's always on the day becomes - just - it just takes care of itself. I work a lot with music. And the interesting thing about my crying"}
{"id": "674160899", "date": "2018-12-06", "guest": "Lucas Hedges", "title": "Actor Lucas Hedges On 'Ben is Back', ADHD And Crying On Screen", "question_index": 18, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Lucas Hedges. And his breakthrough role was in \"Manchester By The Sea.\" He's now in three movies - \"Mid90s,\" \"Boy Erased\" and the brand-new film \"Ben Is Back.\" We're going to take a short break. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, definitely. It really felt like a sign of weakness. And I remember one time I was taking trumpet class, and I couldn't figure out what this, like - if it was like an F for a G or the symbol. And"}
{"id": "674160899", "date": "2018-12-06", "guest": "Lucas Hedges", "title": "Actor Lucas Hedges On 'Ben is Back', ADHD And Crying On Screen", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Lucas Hedges, who's in three movies right now. He's in \"Boy Erased,\" \"Mid90s,\" and the newest of the three is \"Ben Is Back.\" So there's a scene in \"Lady Bird\" in which you've been Saoirse Ronan's character's boyfriend. And she thinks, like, you're really soulmates. And then she finds you kissing another boy. And she realizes that you're gay. And she's so angry and so, like, personally offended because she feels like you weren't honest with her, and also, her dreams of you being her forever boyfriend are ruined. And she won't speak to you until you visit her at the cafe where she's working. And you talk to her. And I want to play that scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, definitely. It really felt like a sign of weakness. And I remember one time I was taking trumpet class, and I couldn't figure out what this, like - if it was like an F for a G or the symbol. And"}
{"id": "674160899", "date": "2018-12-06", "guest": "Lucas Hedges", "title": "Actor Lucas Hedges On 'Ben is Back', ADHD And Crying On Screen", "question_index": 20, "text": "So, Lucas Hedges, at the end of that scene, you are sobbing in her arms. So you've talked about how it's relatively easy for you to cry in a role. Did Saoirse Ronan know that you were going to be sobbing or did you surprise her with that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Lady Bird McPherson) I won't tell. It's OK."}
{"id": "674160899", "date": "2018-12-06", "guest": "Lucas Hedges", "title": "Actor Lucas Hedges On 'Ben is Back', ADHD And Crying On Screen", "question_index": 21, "text": "I thought that was so effective because she's so disarmed by it. I mean, you are in such emotional distress at that point that, how can she be angry at you? I mean, you're going through such inner turmoil about your own feelings. And then you're good friends. You're not sexual with each other after that. But you remain - you become very close again. It's just the terms of the closeness have changed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I didn't know either that I would. And if you watch the movie, it's a wide shot that it happens in. I think it was the second take. And I felt compelled in that direction. And I did it. It didn'"}
{"id": "674160899", "date": "2018-12-06", "guest": "Lucas Hedges", "title": "Actor Lucas Hedges On 'Ben is Back', ADHD And Crying On Screen", "question_index": 22, "text": "So I thought that was incredibly effective.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "674160899", "date": "2018-12-06", "guest": "Lucas Hedges", "title": "Actor Lucas Hedges On 'Ben is Back', ADHD And Crying On Screen", "question_index": 23, "text": "I want to go back to \"Manchester By The Sea,\" which is the movie that was your breakout role, and your character is 16 in it. So I want to play a scene with overlapping dialogue in this 'cause it's just, like, so well done. Like, this movie was written and directed by Kenneth Lonergan, and he's very good at executing overlapping dialogue. So just to set up the scene, 'cause I want people to know what to listen for, there's three people in this scene. You've just become an orphan because - well, more or less, an orphan. Your mother left the family years ago, and your father has just died. He's named your uncle, played by Casey Affleck, as your guardian. Casey Affleck's character is kind of irresponsible. He drinks too much. He gets into fights. And he lives about 30 miles away from where you do so he doesn't want to move to where you are. You don't want to move to where he is. Also in this scene is your father's kind of business partner. Your character's father owned a commercial fishing vessel. That's how he made his living, and he willed the boat to you. But the boat needs a new motor, which is going to be really expensive. So your uncle, Casey Affleck, wants you to sell the boat 'cause there's no money for a new motor. It ends up being a conversation about who's really going to be your guardian. The actor who plays your father's friend and business partner speaks first, and that's - C.J. Wilson, is the actor's name.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you."}
{"id": "674160899", "date": "2018-12-06", "guest": "Lucas Hedges", "title": "Actor Lucas Hedges On 'Ben is Back', ADHD And Crying On Screen", "question_index": 24, "text": "C.J.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you."}
{"id": "674160899", "date": "2018-12-06", "guest": "Lucas Hedges", "title": "Actor Lucas Hedges On 'Ben is Back', ADHD And Crying On Screen", "question_index": 25, "text": "OK. So I'm curious how that was written on the page and what advice Kenneth Lonergan gave you in directing it so that you'd all be talking over each other but, at the same time, those of us in the audience would hear the key words we needed to hear and would understand what was being said.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Patrick) I understand. I know. Thank you."}
{"id": "674160899", "date": "2018-12-06", "guest": "Lucas Hedges", "title": "Actor Lucas Hedges On 'Ben is Back', ADHD And Crying On Screen", "question_index": 26, "text": "My guest is Lucas Hedges. He stars in the new movies, \"Boy Erased,\" for which he was just nominated for a Golden Globe, and \"Ben Is Back,\" which opens tomorrow in select theaters. We'll talk more after a break, and we'll hear part two of our interview with Samin Nosrat, who named her bestselling cookbook and her new Netflix series after the four basic elements of cooking, salt, fat, acid, heat. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's very interesting hearing that 'cause I didn't remember what was in that scene, nor do I actually entirely remember filming it. I do remember on that day, though, the most important thing he"}
{"id": "674160899", "date": "2018-12-06", "guest": "Lucas Hedges", "title": "Actor Lucas Hedges On 'Ben is Back', ADHD And Crying On Screen", "question_index": 27, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Lucas Hedges, who is having an incredible month, professionally. This morning he was nominated for a best actor Golden Globe for his performance in the new movie, \"Boy Erased.\" He co-stars in the film \"Mid90s,\" which is also currently in theaters. And he stars in another new movie, \"Ben Is Back,\" that opens tomorrow in select cities. He plays a 19-year-old who's in rehab for an addiction to painkillers and heroin. He surprises his family by coming home for Christmas insisting that he got permission to do it, but his parents and older sister see trouble ahead. Hedges also co-starred in \"Manchester By The Sea\" and \"Lady Bird.\" Your father is a screenwriter and playwright and director. And as we've said, he wrote and directed the new movie that you star in, \"Ben Is Back.\" So growing up with a father who was in the movie and theater world, did you meet a lot of actors and did their work seem interesting to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's very interesting hearing that 'cause I didn't remember what was in that scene, nor do I actually entirely remember filming it. I do remember on that day, though, the most important thing he"}
{"id": "674160899", "date": "2018-12-06", "guest": "Lucas Hedges", "title": "Actor Lucas Hedges On 'Ben is Back', ADHD And Crying On Screen", "question_index": 28, "text": "That was a 2007 movie with Steve Carell. It was a couple of years after he left \"The Daily Show,\" while he was still in \"The Office.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I remember one time when my dad was doing \"Dan In Real Life,\" I got to choose whether or not..."}
{"id": "674160899", "date": "2018-12-06", "guest": "Lucas Hedges", "title": "Actor Lucas Hedges On 'Ben is Back', ADHD And Crying On Screen", "question_index": 29, "text": "So that meant that you also spent a lot of time with adults.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. And I had the choice of as to whether or not I could go play paintball with my brother and his friends or go bowling with Juliette Binoche and some people from the movie. And at that time, I "}
{"id": "674160899", "date": "2018-12-06", "guest": "Lucas Hedges", "title": "Actor Lucas Hedges On 'Ben is Back', ADHD And Crying On Screen", "question_index": 30, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, when I - whenever my dad was making a movie - like, when my dad did \"The Odd Life Of Timothy Green,\" and I was in eighth grade, I'd get up. I went and visited him for a week. And I'd get u"}
{"id": "674160899", "date": "2018-12-06", "guest": "Lucas Hedges", "title": "Actor Lucas Hedges On 'Ben is Back', ADHD And Crying On Screen", "question_index": 31, "text": "Because you've played gay characters in a couple of movies, in \"Lady Bird\" and in one of your current movies, \"Boy Erased,\" I think a lot of people have been asking you, like, how do you identify? And in one interview, you said that you see yourself as a spectrum, you know - as being on the spectrum, someplace between gay and straight and that the first time the idea of there being a kind of sexual orientation spectrum or - you know, was when you were in sixth grade, like a health teacher brought that up. And I was thinking, as somebody, you know, considerably older than you, I was thinking how amazing that must be, in sixth grade, to have somebody tell you that - not only tell you that there was such a thing as a spectrum, but to say that in a non-judgmental way, like it's OK to position yourself wherever you want to on that spectrum.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Watch the monitor. And it was like - I remember everyone was like, why are you here at 6 in the morning? And I just want - there's nothing I wanted more than to be on set."}
{"id": "674160899", "date": "2018-12-06", "guest": "Lucas Hedges", "title": "Actor Lucas Hedges On 'Ben is Back', ADHD And Crying On Screen", "question_index": 32, "text": "Was it, like, a remarkable - like, what did you make of that in sixth grade? And was it remarkable to you that somebody was saying that? Or in your family was that just kind of, like, a given, that, well, of course there is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "674160899", "date": "2018-12-06", "guest": "Lucas Hedges", "title": "Actor Lucas Hedges On 'Ben is Back', ADHD And Crying On Screen", "question_index": 33, "text": "Did you find it reassuring that there was the concept of a spectrum, and that it was OK to be wherever you were on that spectrum, to have a teacher tell you that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, I was aware at the time that I - that the world I was raised in was rare, that I was lucky. I'd won the lottery to be going to this school in Brooklyn Heights and that I was aware that I c"}
{"id": "674160899", "date": "2018-12-06", "guest": "Lucas Hedges", "title": "Actor Lucas Hedges On 'Ben is Back', ADHD And Crying On Screen", "question_index": 34, "text": "Even though you didn't feel like you'd get to talk about it with other people yet, still, somebody told you, an authority figure told you, it's OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think I always - I remember..."}
{"id": "674160899", "date": "2018-12-06", "guest": "Lucas Hedges", "title": "Actor Lucas Hedges On 'Ben is Back', ADHD And Crying On Screen", "question_index": 35, "text": "So I'm not going to ask you how you identify because that's your business. And if you want to say something, you're welcome to. But I'm going to ask you about it unless you want to speak about it. But what I will ask you is, is it awkward for you, as a young man who is, you know, figuring out your identity as an adult in the world, to be asked questions like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My parents told me from a young age that - I remember them sitting down and saying, listen, just so you know, if you're gay, that is more than OK. And my godfather, I remember, and lots of the most im"}
{"id": "674160899", "date": "2018-12-06", "guest": "Lucas Hedges", "title": "Actor Lucas Hedges On 'Ben is Back', ADHD And Crying On Screen", "question_index": 36, "text": "Awkward", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think so. Sometimes I feel as though I have to kind of figure things out on the fly and in front of the world in a way that makes me feel a little anxious. And it's tricky, too, because the wa"}
{"id": "674160899", "date": "2018-12-06", "guest": "Lucas Hedges", "title": "Actor Lucas Hedges On 'Ben is Back', ADHD And Crying On Screen", "question_index": 37, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think so. Sometimes I feel as though I have to kind of figure things out on the fly and in front of the world in a way that makes me feel a little anxious. And it's tricky, too, because the wa"}
{"id": "674160899", "date": "2018-12-06", "guest": "Lucas Hedges", "title": "Actor Lucas Hedges On 'Ben is Back', ADHD And Crying On Screen", "question_index": 38, "text": "So are you looking forward to doing roles when you're not the son or the grandson, but you're an independent adult who isn't living with parents?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It can get - yeah, it's awkward. Yeah."}
{"id": "674160899", "date": "2018-12-06", "guest": "Lucas Hedges", "title": "Actor Lucas Hedges On 'Ben is Back', ADHD And Crying On Screen", "question_index": 39, "text": "Well, Lucas Hedges, it's been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much. Thank you for your performances.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think so. At the same time - right now I feel like I'm missing out on something a bit. I feel like I've done maybe - I've worked enough in the last two years that I feel like I want to maybe g"}
{"id": "674160899", "date": "2018-12-06", "guest": "Lucas Hedges", "title": "Actor Lucas Hedges On 'Ben is Back', ADHD And Crying On Screen", "question_index": 40, "text": "Lucas Hedges stars in two new movies, \"Boy Erased,\" for which he was just nominated for a Golden Globe, and \"Ben Is Back,\" which opens tomorrow in select cities. After a break, we'll hear part two of our interview with Samin Nosrat, who named her bestselling cookbook and her new Netflix series after the four basic elements of cooking, \"Salt, Fat, Acid, Heat.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, thank you very much. Thank you. I really, really appreciate you and this conversation."}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 0, "text": "OK. I love that song. Steve Young, Sheldon Harnick, John Russell, welcome to FRESH AIR. Thank you so much for coming. Steve, you wrote the book \"Everything's Coming Up Profits.\" Where is this song from?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "UNIDENTIFIED SINGER #1: (Singing) My bathroom, my bathroom is my very special room where I primp and fuss and groom - where I can get away from all and really feel in bloom. I'm free. I'm free. I've c"}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 1, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is from a 1969 American Standard convention show in Las Vegas. And it was for the distributors of all the American Standard bathroom fixtures. Many of the songs on the record are filled with deta"}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 2, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...An ode to the business as a whole - why they do what they do. And it's a remarkable piece of work that I've been humming around the house for 20 years."}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 3, "text": "I love the subtext of this is - 'cause the subtext is, like, this poor woman has no privacy at home. Her family's driving her crazy, so she has to lock herself in the bathroom", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And everybody who hears it is just floored by it."}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 4, "text": "to find any peace. Sheldon Harnick, you are such a brilliant lyricist. Thank you for coming. What do you think of the lyrics to \"My Bathroom?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And everybody who hears it is just floored by it."}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 5, "text": "Yes", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it's a very professional, romantic ballad about a bathroom so that I couldn't help but chuckle all the way through it. But it's extremely well-done. I would quibble with one rhyme. I think it was "}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it's a very professional, romantic ballad about a bathroom so that I couldn't help but chuckle all the way through it. But it's extremely well-done. I would quibble with one rhyme. I think it was "}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 7, "text": "And well-sung. John Russell, you're the singer in this group. How would you grade her singing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Which I thought was a rather weakly - but aside from that, it's a very professional job."}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 8, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, beautiful. It was terrific."}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 9, "text": "Yeah. Well, before we talk with John Russell and Sheldon Harnick about their roles in writing industrial musicals, Steve Young, what's the history of these musicals? Where did they start? Like, what are they, and where did they start?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just thought it was spot on."}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 10, "text": "How did you even get interested in these?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "These are musicals, often full Broadway-style musicals, that were written for company conventions and sales meetings. They were never for the public to hear. They were only to educate and entertain an"}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 11, "text": "Well, Sheldon Harnick, you are so well-known and loved for your musicals, including \"Fiddler On The Roof\" and \"She Loves Me\" and \"Fiorello!\" How did you end up writing lyrics with your partner - your late partner Jerry Bock for industrial musicals?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Why am I still wandering around singing about my insurance man? And it was because they were fabulously well-done in many cases. And it was a hidden part of the entertainment world but huge budgets - "}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 12, "text": "\"The Music Man,\" \"The Music Man.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I only did one industrial with Jerry. That was for the Ford Motor Company. The other - I started writing lyrics out of desperation. I was broke and wondering where my next job - my next meal was"}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 13, "text": "I want to play a song from it, and this is called \"Golden Harvest.\" And what was the goal of this song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He sued. And after that, any industrial I did the music had to be original because they were just breaking the law by setting new lyrics to all these tunes. So at any rate, I did write about - I don't"}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 14, "text": "OK. So, Sheldon Harnick, do you actually remember this song? 'Cause if not, hearing it will perhaps bring back memories.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a miserable show, but the title does really kind of set the scene for the whole industry and the genre."}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 15, "text": "Oh, I can't wait to hear what you think of it. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't remember, and I'm looking forward to hearing it."}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 16, "text": "So this is \"Golden Harvest,\" a song from an industrial musical for the Ford Tractor Company.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't remember, and I'm looking forward to hearing it."}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 17, "text": "OK, Sheldon Harnick, now that you've heard your 1959 song \"Golden Harvest\" from an industrial for Ford tractors, what do you think?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Gonna be a golden harvest in 1959. Gonna be a lot more buyers to sign the dotted line. With the new Ford tractors, the future's looking fine. Now's the time to roll your sleeves up 'cause if"}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 18, "text": "Oh, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I miss Jerry Bock."}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 19, "text": "Can we pay tribute with a whole line? Turn your tractors and implements to a bumper crop of dollars and cents. That is so great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's one of the examples of the kind of rhyme that really appealed to me when I started collecting..."}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 20, "text": "And Steve Young, what was the point of spending so much money on these industrial shows?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's what you don't get anywhere else but in these shows, is that sort of unexpected combination."}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 21, "text": "And how was the money for you, Sheldon Harnick? Do you remember?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was the belief for quite a long time - I don't know if there was ever hard data to back it up - but if you bring everyone together for this thrilling theatrical experience - and it often actuall"}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 22, "text": "We'll talk more about industrial musicals with author Steve Young, singer John Russell and the great lyricist Sheldon Harnick after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, boy, I was so broke. It was very important for me. When I was doing them, they didn't yet have big stars. So I didn't get the kind of money that the writers got later. But later, they had people l"}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 23, "text": "We're talking about the golden age of industrial musicals, when musical shows were written and performed for corporate sales conventions with lyrics about new products and how to sell them. My guests are Steve Young, the author of the book, \"Everything's Coming Up Profits,\" John Russell, who sang in dozens of industrials and lyricist Sheldon Harnick, who wrote songs for a few industrials, including one he collaborated on with Jerry Bock before they became famous for \"Fiddler On The Roof\" and \"Fiorello.\" Let's hear another Sheldon-Harnick-Jerry-Bock collaboration. And this is also for Ford. And it's called, \"More Power To You.\" Steve, what can you tell us about this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, boy, I was so broke. It was very important for me. When I was doing them, they didn't yet have big stars. So I didn't get the kind of money that the writers got later. But later, they had people l"}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 24, "text": "Well, the good news is that the year that this was performed for the Ford tractor company, the Bock-Harnick musical \"Fiorello\" was staged on Broadway and went on to win a Pulitzer Prize. So things - things worked out good.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes, sorry to be the bearer of bad news here."}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 25, "text": "No tractors at all.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 26, "text": ". OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 27, "text": "So this one's called \"More Power To You.\" And after we hear it and it refreshes your memory, Sheldon Harnick, we'll ask you about writing it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were cut in rehearsal."}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 28, "text": "Stirring", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) The work of the world is never done. It never lessens, shrinks or diminishes. There's always mowing, towing, bailing, nailing, seeding, breeding, spreading, shredding, clipping, stripping, s"}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 29, "text": ". A song by my guest, Sheldon Harnick, which was co-written with his late music partner, Jerry Bock. They also wrote - they also wrote \"Fiddler On The Roof\" and \"Fiorello\" and \"She Loves Me.\" This is a song from a Ford tractor industrial musical. And also with us is Steve Young, who has a whole new book about industrial musicals called \"Everything's Coming Up Profits.\" John Russell is with us, too. He sang in some of these musicals - not in the one we just heard. So Sheldon Harnick, now that your memory is refreshed about this song that you wrote for the Ford tractor industrial musical, what do you remember about writing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) The work of the world is never done. It never lessens, shrinks or diminishes. There's always mowing, towing, bailing, nailing, seeding, breeding, spreading, shredding, clipping, stripping, s"}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 30, "text": "You mean in making it consuma (ph) instead of consumer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And Ira Gershwin, that was very influential."}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 31, "text": "So it can rhyme with Yuma?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 32, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 33, "text": "John Russell, as a singer in these musicals, how did you get into the business?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, editor of the website TV Worth Watching, sitting in for Terry Gross. Today we're talking about the golden age of industrial musicals, musical shows written and "}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 34, "text": "Whoa.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had - I'm originally from Los Angeles. And after I got out of the Army, I came to New York to be an actor. And the first industrial I did was for Bell Telephone. And it was choreographed by a lovely"}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 35, "text": "Why did you need a stage name? Why didn't you go with John Russell?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, first of all, I must also say that any of my fellow performers who are listening to this interview know me as Peter Shaun (ph). That was my stage name."}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 36, "text": "Oh, I remember that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when you join the unions, you can't have the same name as another actor, and John Russell was an actor. He had a television series called \"Lawman.\""}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 37, "text": "OK", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So I had to completely change my name."}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 38, "text": "so let's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So I had to completely change my name."}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 39, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I..."}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 40, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And to show you how tacky it was, the producer-director came to the rehearsal studio one day with a trunk full of costumes that he had accumulated over the years. And he dumped them out on the floor a"}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 41, "text": "Right now, I want to play a song that John Russell, aka Peter Shaun, is on, and this is a song called \"Up Came Oil\" from a 1976 Exxon show called \"The Spirit Of Achievement.\" John, Steve, you want to fill us in on a little background of this musical before we hear the song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that one never made it onto a record album."}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 42, "text": "And the part where John Russell sings starts with the words spindle up because there's more than one lead singer on this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 43, "text": "Oh, yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was Bruce Pomahac."}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 44, "text": "So that's Sheldon Harnick talking about the harp - the great lyricist Sheldon Harnick who wrote one of the industrial musicals. We heard my guest John Russell singing one of the vocals on that. Also with us is Steve Young, who wrote the new book \"Everything's Coming Up Profits: The Golden Age Of Industrial Musicals.\" This is such a kind of post-rock musical musical.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my goodness. And now he's in charge of music at Rodgers & Hammerstein."}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 45, "text": "We'll talk more about industrial musicals after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. My co-author in the book, Sport Murphy, has a wonderful piece about this song in which he notes that it's really a collision of old-style Broadway with this newer 1970s semi-rock style, which th"}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 46, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guests are lyricist Sheldon Harnick, singer John Russell and writer Steve Young, and we're talking about industrial musicals. Sheldon Harnick used to write for them before he became a famous Broadway composer. These industrial musicals are musicals with songs about the company", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. My co-author in the book, Sport Murphy, has a wonderful piece about this song in which he notes that it's really a collision of old-style Broadway with this newer 1970s semi-rock style, which th"}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 47, "text": "that sponsors the musical, and they're performed at conventions and sales meetings to inspire the workers to go out and sell. There's a song that you write about in your book. When I hear this one, honestly it almost brings me to tears. It's like, oh, a woman singing about her husband - about how her one man is no longer a one-man operation anymore.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. My co-author in the book, Sport Murphy, has a wonderful piece about this song in which he notes that it's really a collision of old-style Broadway with this newer 1970s semi-rock style, which th"}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 48, "text": "Yeah, tell us about this show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes, from \"Diesel, Dazzle\" - first of all..."}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 49, "text": "So this is about the importance of expanding your shop - is that it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A fabulous title, which really does combine the two worlds colliding in one phrase - heavy industry of the diesel engine and the dazzle of showbusiness."}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 50, "text": "And a song that just fits so oddly into the genre of songs about women singing about their man. OK, so this is \"One Man Operation\" from the 1966 show \"Diesel, Dazzle.\" Here we go.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it was about understanding the trials and tribulations of the guy who's running the franchise to rebuild and sell diesel engines - but through the perspective of the put-upon wife. You see this "}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 51, "text": "UNIDENTIFIED SINGER #4: (Singing) He's coming home again, just like other men. At supper, he'll walk through that door. For the one man in my life, he's no one-man operation anymore - anymore. He knows what hard work is, and its rewards were his till work became a weary chore. But now the one man in my life is no one-man operation anymore. Once he thought he could do it. But once more business came - rebuilding, selling, taking orders too - workdays, holidays, they all became the same. And it was night when his day was through. He did it all alone - keep books, attend the phone 18 hours every 24. But now my one the one man in my life is no one-man operation anymore - anymore. Now he has two mechanics, a parts-and-service man, a girl to take the calls and keep the books. He spends weekends giving the children all he can and telling me how young his wife looks.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it was about understanding the trials and tribulations of the guy who's running the franchise to rebuild and sell diesel engines - but through the perspective of the put-upon wife. You see this "}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 52, "text": "I have to say - you know, I listen to that song, and I kind of laugh and cry at the same time because it's really hysterical, but it's actually so well-written. It's very moving. I kind of tear up when the..", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it was about understanding the trials and tribulations of the guy who's running the franchise to rebuild and sell diesel engines - but through the perspective of the put-upon wife. You see this "}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 53, "text": "Yes. And beautifully sung.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And beautifully sung."}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 54, "text": "Can we play one of the sillier ones from these industrials?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "About a parts-and-service man or rebuilding that collides with that kind of music and that kind of performance - that's what really knocked me out when I first started these - finding these records wa"}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 55, "text": "Well, yes. I mean, this does not have a beautiful melody. It's to the tune of \"Old MacDonald.\" Steve, you know the one to I'm talking about. You want to introduce it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that's saying something."}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 56, "text": "OK, so here it is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is from a 1971 Keds sales meeting. Fred Tobias and Stan Lebowsky - respected composers but, boy, were they put to the test on this. Somebody handed them a pile of information about children's sne"}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 57, "text": "UNIDENTIFIED SINGER #5: We all know about \"Old MacDonald Who Had A Farm.\" Well, today we're going to learn about old Don Hadley (ph) who has a line. (Singing) Old Don Hadley has a line - E-I-E-I-O - a children's casual footwear line - E-I-E-I-O. With a grasshopper here and grasshopper there - here a sneaker, there a sneaker, everywhere a kid's Ked. Old Don Hadley has a line - E-I-E-I-O. Now, five more speakers join his line - E-I-E-I-O. The first is called the new regatta. The new regatta, you'll sell a lotta (ph) - a molded rub, a boat shoe with two-color sole and foxing too, a round-toe last and wedge heel, the first children's wedge heel, four colors and durable duck, a natural to make a buck, children's retail 6.45. For misses, it will be 6.95, very attractive at that price. The dealer markup is very nice. Old Don Hadley's line gets hotter with the new regatta.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is from a 1971 Keds sales meeting. Fred Tobias and Stan Lebowsky - respected composers but, boy, were they put to the test on this. Somebody handed them a pile of information about children's sne"}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 58, "text": "Sheldon Harnick, your take on the lyric - are you glad you didn't have to write this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And you can just imagine the guys sitting in the audience at this starting to look at their watches in alarm and just thinking, oh, my God, are they really gonna go through five sneakers to the tune o"}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 59, "text": "Well, thank you, Sheldon Harnick, John Russell, Steve Young. It's just been great to talk with you all. I really appreciate your time. And just thanks.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Desperation often inspires interesting escape routes."}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 60, "text": "And, Steve, do you have another favorite you'd like us to end the show with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 61, "text": "Oh, I like that one. Yes, excuse me", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my goodness. What's a good juicy one full of hardcore selling? Do you have a York Air Conditioners song?"}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 62, "text": ". Some of these are just so much fun. I like that one because it's like a lesson in - you know, when you're selling to a woman who doesn't understand air conditioning...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my goodness. What's a good juicy one full of hardcore selling? Do you have a York Air Conditioners song?"}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 63, "text": "These are the things you need to tell her. But there's this kind of, like, feminist thing happening, too, because then, like, women chime into the song and start...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right - how to go door to door."}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 64, "text": "...Singing about the more technical aspects of it", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. We start seeing that."}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 65, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. We start seeing that."}
{"id": "674524278", "date": "2018-12-07", "guest": "Steve Young", "title": "How The 'Golden Age' Of Corporate Musicals Used Songs To Boost Sales", "question_index": 66, "text": "Oh, great. We will hear it. This has been great fun. Thank you all so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And listen for the Hall of Fame rhyme - compressor and yes, sir."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. After pledging to never make an album of Christmas songs, my guest, roots and rockabilly musician JD McPherson, has broken that promise. And I'm really glad he did. His new album \"Socks\" features his original holiday songs, and they're really fun. McPherson and his band came to our studio last week with their instruments to play some of those new Christmas songs and talk about music and other things. McPherson is a songwriter, singer and guitarist who is described by music critic Ann Powers as a supreme rock reinventor. McPherson grew up far away from the hubs of the music world on a cattle ranch in Oklahoma. His father runs the ranch. His mother is a preacher. Before becoming a full-time musician, McPherson taught art for four years to students in middle school. His Christmas album \"Socks\" is his fourth album. Welcome all of you to FRESH AIR. It's so exciting to have you here, and the new Christmas album is great. JD, I'm going to ask you to introduce the first song and to introduce the members of the band.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 1, "text": "Though Jason isn't here, I should say.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Certainly. So my name's JD McPherson, and over to my left is everybody else. That's Doug Corcoran, the utility guy who plays everything. Jimmy Sutton on bass. Ray Jacildo plays keys with background vo"}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 2, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's correct."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 3, "text": "We're not going to be hearing him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's too loud. He's..."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's too loud. He's in a straightjacket..."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 5, "text": "Too loud for our little studio.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...In the other room."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 6, "text": "OK. Do you want to introduce the first song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 7, "text": "Thank you so much for performing that. That is so great. And this is in our studio. We heard JD McPherson on vocals and guitar, Jimmy Sutton, bass and guitar and also singing backup vocals, Doug Corcoran and Ray Jacildo. And that is one of the songs that's also featured on JD's new album, which is called \"Socks.\" And it's an album of original Christmas songs. And it's really fun, just like the song we just heard. JD, why did you want to do a Christmas album? I'm glad you did it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Happiness is automatic. There's music in the air. Grab the boxes from the attic and haul them down the stairs. Freezing weather's around the corner, and everybody knows. Whoa-oh, whoa-oh-ho "}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 8, "text": "Why did you want to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Happiness is automatic. There's music in the air. Grab the boxes from the attic and haul them down the stairs. Freezing weather's around the corner, and everybody knows. Whoa-oh, whoa-oh-ho "}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I didn't want to for a long time. We had done a Christmas song. So I - you know, I started professional, like, touring, I guess you'd call it. I always had bands, but I started touring pretty - "}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 10, "text": "Wow, that's great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So a few years back, our label at the time said, why don't you do a Christmas song? And I said OK, and so I did it. And it actually went OK. And it was a lot of fun. I'm actually a big Christmas fan. "}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 11, "text": "So there's another Christmas song I'd like you to do, and it's called \"Ugly Sweater Blues.\" And a lot of people intentionally wear ugly sweaters to Christmas parties - really hideous ones. So did you ever have any, like, ugly sweater traditions or real-ugly sweaters that you were forced to wear?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Making a record."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was more of - so, you know, I'm a - I have three older brothers and an older sister. And they were all out of the house when I was born. I was a big surprise. And so it wasn't really sweaters"}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 13, "text": "I know the feeling. I knew the feeling. All right. Can you do that song for us? So this is JD McPherson and his band performing in our studio. We're going to hear JD on guitar and vocals, Jimmy Sutton on bass. Doug Corcoran is going to be playing steel guitar and Ray Jacildo - chimes. So here we go.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For - everybody has some point where they're being forced to wear clothes that they don't really want to. So ugly sweaters, I think, everybody - even if you haven't worn them, that's a thing that you "}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 14, "text": "That sounded great. That's such a great song", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Mama, don't make me wear that old thing again. Hand-knitted Christmas trees and a silly snowman - no matter if I refuse, I got these ugly sweater blues. Mama, why can't you see I feel like a"}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 15, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Mama, don't make me wear that old thing again. Hand-knitted Christmas trees and a silly snowman - no matter if I refuse, I got these ugly sweater blues. Mama, why can't you see I feel like a"}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 16, "text": "That song was written by JD McPherson, who we heard on guitar and vocals. And this is one of the songs that he wrote that's on the new Christmas album \"Socks\" that he recorded with his band. And thank you for playing this in the studio for us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is so much fun for me. Let's take a short break here, and then we'll hear more music in our studio back after this break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is so much fun. Thank you for having us."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guests are JD McPherson and members of his band, and they have a new album of Christmas songs - original songs - that's called \"Socks.\" So JD, I want to ask you a little bit about your past 'cause you grew up on a cattle farm...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is so much fun. Thank you for having us."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 19, "text": "...in Oklahoma. So, like, describe it for us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 20, "text": "Did you have to do things on the cattle ranch?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One-hundred-sixty acres or thereabouts, an A-frame house that my dad built up on a hill. Southeast Oklahoma is really pretty. I think it's the prettiest part of Oklahoma - mountainous, kind of Ozark-t"}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 21, "text": "What'd you have to do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 22, "text": "So you had to do that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you have to feed them first of all. And that was kind of - I think that's probably the - the best description is waking up at 5 in the morning before school and putting out a round bale, meal an"}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 23, "text": "And did you have to shovel anything?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 24, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, there's plenty of room. You don't have to worry about it too much."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 25, "text": "My knowledge of, like, cattle is kind of like cattle drive Westerns like the TV series \"Rawhide.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just walk - watch where you're walking."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 26, "text": "Nothing like that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 27, "text": "Really? Like, you call them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, you just kind of call them and they come up and..."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 28, "text": "And they come.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 29, "text": "What's the cattle call?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 30, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I can't do it here 'cause it's so loud, but it's kind of like (imitating cattle call)."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 31, "text": "Did that help you musically to learn how to do that when you were a kid?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 32, "text": "So you said there's nothing to do except obsess on music. So what music were you obsessing on early on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. Maybe that's where the first thing happened. I don't know. It could be."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 33, "text": "So you mentioned punk rock. Did you start in a punk rock band?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So that was the twain. We split up there."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So me and my friend Mitchell had three bands with the same - just the same two members basically. We would - my nephew eventually - we taught him how to play bass, so we had a trio and. But yeah"}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 35, "text": "But you had no...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was - I think that was John Sparks' backyard. Cowboys don't really like X..."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 36, "text": "Right. You had no audience.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And Buzzcocks and stuff like that."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 37, "text": "Oh, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 38, "text": "Oh, gee, that must've been...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But we worked so hard on it."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 39, "text": "That must've been so discouraging. You love this music, and there's nobody to listen to it with...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We made flyers."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 40, "text": "...Or to play it for.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not really."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 41, "text": "Now, since we're talking about Christmas 'cause you have a new Christmas album, I think that your first Telecaster guitar was a Christmas gift.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it was just fun. It's just a good - it's a good thing to do. And, you know, your idling - your idle setting at 14, 15 years old is frustration, so you just do stuff because you're supposed to "}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 42, "text": "What time was it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it was actually a Stratocaster, which is weird because I immediately shifted into being a Telecaster guy after that. But that was the best thing that I could have ever received. I mean, it was l"}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 43, "text": "Age 15.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was, like, probably 15."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 44, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was 15. And I didn't expect to get it. And I had got all my presents, and I was, you know, really grateful for all - and then all of a sudden, my brother brings in this white - you know wha"}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 45, "text": "So when you were growing up on a cattle farm, was it hard to get into town or to go to a store? It sounds like you had to call stores and shopping malls in another state in order to find music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was so stoked to have a real electric guitar, so - but then I discovered Joe Strummer and Keith Richards and Chrissie Hynde all had Telecasters, so I wanted to do that instead."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 46, "text": "It sounds isolated.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, the nearest..."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 47, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was really isolated. The nearest supermarket was about 45-minute drive. I mean, there was, like, little country stores here and there. But, you know, my folks would do their shopping in, like, McAl"}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 48, "text": "Did you vow, one day I'm going to be in New York?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 49, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My sights were much smaller."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 50, "text": "Could we hear another Christmas song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We used to go to - we used to go shows in Tulsa, and there's a really important venue there called Cain's Ballroom. And I saw, you know, all of my first concerts there. It's such an important place. A"}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 51, "text": "OK, so let me suggest one. How about \"Bad Kid\" from your new Christmas album, \"Socks?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. What are we doing?"}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 52, "text": "Can you all play that for us? And the musicians here are in the studio with me, and it's JD McPherson and his band. And we're hearing Jimmy Sutton on bass. And Doug, what are you playing on this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 53, "text": "Baritone guitar", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Baritone guitar."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 54, "text": ", OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Baritone guitar."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 55, "text": "My guests are JD McPherson and his band. Their new album of McPherson's new, original Christmas songs is called \"Socks.\" They'll play more music, and we'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Oh, well, Christmastime is a time to be good. But baby, I'm a bad, bad kid. A stocking full of kerosene matches and wood - I guess I'm just a bad, bad kid. Government surveillance since I st"}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 56, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to our concert of roots and rockabilly new original Christmas songs with JD McPherson and his band. Their new Christmas album is called \"Socks.\" This is his fourth album of what's sometimes called retro rock. McPherson is a songwriter, singer and guitarist. He grew up on a cattle ranch in Oklahoma. So when did you start getting interested in rockabilly?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Hey, Mister Santa. How's it looking? That 32 waistline, you better get cooking. We need a big Santa. It's almost Christmastime. First stop, we got to get to Chicago. The secret to the pizza "}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 57, "text": "And Jimmy, you're interested in that, too. And this is Jimmy Sutton, the bass player - because, like, you even have your own record label and studio. And the label's called Hi-Style.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, you know, some of those punk bands that I was into would do - would once in a while - like, OK, for instance, The Clash on \"London Calling,\" they did a song called \"Brand New Cadillac,\" which was "}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 58, "text": "And Jimmy, you're interested in that too - and this is Jimmy Sutton, the bass player - because, like, you even have your own record label and studio. And the label's called Hi-Style.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, Hi-Style."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 59, "text": "And it's all roots music. In fact, I like the description on your website of the label. It says Hi-Style focuses on American roots music that feeds the soul.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, Hi-Style Records, that's right."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 60, "text": "So Jimmy, one of the things you do is play slap bass. And I want you to demonstrate how that sounds for us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 61, "text": "So it's turning the bass into a bass and a percussion instrument at the same time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Here, I'll give you two of my favorites. This is going to be a combination between - how about Willie Dixon and Bill Black? (Playing bass)."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 62, "text": "Yeah, it's a great show", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Rawhide\" again."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 63, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Rawhide\" again."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 64, "text": "So when you're playing slap bass, where are you slapping? What do you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But, you know - but, yeah, and along with JD, listening to early punk rock music, it kind of - when the whole rockabilly thing kind of surfaced, it almost gave us the OK to get back in - you know, jus"}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 65, "text": "Great. And, you know, some of the early rock 'n' rollers used their bass as part of the choreography. They put it under their legs or spin it around. Have you done that kind of stuff onstage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, well, I'm slapping over the fingerboard towards the bottom. And I'm playing gut strings right here too, and they tend to sound a little better than all-steel strings. But I'm - here, this is a sin"}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 66, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I used to do it all."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 67, "text": "Why did you stop?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I used to do it all. Yeah, I used to surf it, stand on it, lay on it. You know, it was just ridiculous. It was a lot of fun. But, you know, that was in my - maybe my 20s - teens. It started in my teen"}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 68, "text": "It's probably not the best thing for the bass either, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because everybody else started doing it, and I think people expected me to do it - you know, are you going to stand on the bass again? And I just wanted to play better. You know, at a certain point, I"}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 69, "text": "So you grew up in Chicago.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I still have that bass that I bought back in 19 - oh, yeah, it was in 1982 I think I purchased my first bass in downtown Chicago."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 70, "text": "So you were a city boy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I did."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 71, "text": "How did you meet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I did not live around any cows like JD here."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 72, "text": "Seriously?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Myspace."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 73, "text": "Myspace served it's function.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I was trying to get a gig in Chicago, and I was a fan of his bands. And I messaged him on Myspace."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 74, "text": "Well, I'm glad you got together. This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, we're doing music in our studio today. And my guests are JD McPherson, who is a songwriter, singer and guitarist, and members of his band. And their new album is an album of original Christmas songs written by JD. The album is called \"Socks.\" But we're also hearing them play some music that isn't Christmas music. And that is the case - not Christmas music - with the next song I'm going to ask you to do, which is called \"Jubilee.\" And performing in our studio on this song will be JD on guitar and vocals and Jimmy Sutton on bass. Doug Corcoran is going to be playing baritone guitar. And Ray Jacildo is going to be on chimes. And before we hear it, JD, introduce the song for us. Tell us about the inspiration for this song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I listened to this music. And there was something going on there, so - and here we are."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 75, "text": "But in this song, jubilee is a person. It's a woman.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Jubilee\" - we were making the last record, and I had this kind of chord progression started. And I worked on this one with Ray actually. And the lyrics were written I think almost overnight. I wrote "}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 76, "text": "OK, all right. Can you play it for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 77, "text": "So that was just an excerpt of the song \"Jubilee.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I hang around where the music is playing. I see the joyful look on every face. I try to listen to the words they're singing. But nothing ever fills this empty space. You're the only thing th"}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 78, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that was the abbreviated version..."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 79, "text": "Well, I'll tell you what. Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is JD McPherson and his band. And they have a new album of Christmas songs - original songs - that's called \"Socks.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Because it's a very long song. For us, five minutes is very, very long."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 80, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is JD McPherson and three members of his band - bass player Jimmy Sutton, Doug Corcoran, who plays baritone guitar and also sings, and Ray Jacildo, who is the keyboard player. And he's playing chimes for us today in addition to singing backup vocals. Jason Smay, the drummer of the band, is not with us today because in our studio, the drums are just going to be too loud, and he's the drummer. So thanks anyways, Jason. You sound great on the record. So we talked a little bit about growing up on a cattle ranch. You taught school before you were a professional musician. You taught eighth grade. You were fired from eighth grade teaching, so was I.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Because it's a very long song. For us, five minutes is very, very long."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 81, "text": "You lasted four years. I lasted six weeks, so...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Really?"}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 82, "text": "I have the edge over you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, wow."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 83, "text": "Everything wrong. I couldn't...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I want to know what you did."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 84, "text": "...Keep the kids in the classroom, let alone teach them anything.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did that, too."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 85, "text": "But why were you fired?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did that, too."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 86, "text": "In what sense?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, really, the - you know, the - there's actually a little bit of a legend perpetuated by a big rock magazine that I was fired for giving a 15-year-old boy a Bad Brains CD. That's true. I did give "}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 87, "text": "Is administrivia your word?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just - I'm not good at wallowing in the mire of administrivia. I'm not good at office politics. I'm not good at relating to other adults. In fact, I'm much - I'm, actually, much better with the kids"}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 88, "text": "Oh, I haven't. I like it. I like it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I've heard that word before."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 89, "text": "You also - like, one of your - your first album, in fact, was called \"Signs & Semiotics\" (ph).", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 90, "text": "Signs...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Close..."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 91, "text": "Signs and signifiers are part of the definition of semiotics, which is using signs and signifiers and symbols to understand how meaning is derived from the text. And the semioticists", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...\"Signs & Signifiers.\""}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 92, "text": "who invented - came up with a very arcane language to deconstruct different art forms. Why did you study that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...\"Signs & Signifiers.\""}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 93, "text": "So why did you want to name an album \"Signs & Signifiers\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 94, "text": "Did you think it sounded vaguely biblical, like the signs and signifiers of hell? If you don't -", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I always liked the - I always liked language. And I loved that terminology that you'd see pop up once in a while. I always thought it sounded like kind of a '20s blues title sound like something"}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 95, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I always liked the - I always liked language. And I loved that terminology that you'd see pop up once in a while. I always thought it sounded like kind of a '20s blues title sound like something"}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 96, "text": "Oh, I was thinking a lot of the blues people, I mean, sang about hell...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, maybe a little of that, too. Both my parents are preachers, too, so maybe there's of little that in there, too."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 97, "text": "...And damnation. So your mother was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 98, "text": "...Was a preacher.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mother..."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 99, "text": "Still is - what church?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Still is, yeah."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 100, "text": "Why were they going to shut it down?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Word of Life Church in Bache, Okla. She's been a minister for - well, she's in her 80s now. She's been doing it a long time. That was a big deal because where we lived, that wasn't really - people"}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 101, "text": "And they don't shut things down for aesthetic reasons. They set it down for others.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But..."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 102, "text": "So was your family church the church where your mother preached?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "McAlester police, they don't have - you know, there's not a lot going on. So when kids with skateboards show up and distortion boxes and - singing songs by people from England, I don't know. They want"}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 103, "text": "So you grew up with your mother preaching.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 104, "text": "What did she preach? Like what were - what are some memorable things from her sermons?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 105, "text": "Oh, so you played in your mother's church.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was a non-denominational service. It was really heavy on music. There was a lot of music. I started off drums there, and my brother played guitar."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 106, "text": "What music did you play?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 107, "text": "It sounds like it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it wasn't, like, hymns. It wasn't - they were kind of songs written by people, like non-published material. It was an interesting place. Like, there was a lot of different kind of - like, I "}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 108, "text": "Sing a few bars of one of the songs that you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 109, "text": "...Did in church.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, jeez (ph)."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 110, "text": "That's really nice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I remember my dad used to sing this song called \"Cover Me\" that I really like. And this is going to be - this is, I mean, literally never - (singing, playing guitar) cover me. Cover me. Extend the bor"}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 111, "text": "So did Christmas songs actually have special meaning for you because your mother was a preacher?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 112, "text": "That's nice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "to the city for me. So when I did go and it was Christmastime, it really felt, I think, like, maybe what they're trying to make you feel as opposed to living in a city and it's just everywhere all the"}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 113, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 114, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I like that."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 115, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll be back for some more music performed in our studio by JD McPherson and his band. And their new album is an album of JD's Christmas songs, and it's called \"Socks.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I like not being cynical about things."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 116, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guests are JD McPherson and members of his band. And their new album is an album of JD's original Christmas songs. It's called \"Socks.\" So when you were fired after four years from teaching, was that like a relief for you? Did it open up the door to becoming a musician...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I like not being cynical about things."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 117, "text": "...A full-time musician?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I..."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 118, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "? You - every job I ever had, I tried to somehow inject music in there somewhere. I tried to figure out a way to make it about what I really wanted to do. And so when the fourth-graders were learning "}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 119, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Name the four Romanes, go; you get a piece of candy..."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 120, "text": "So I want to close with another - that is, I want you to close with another Christmas song. There's a song I love from the new album - your new album \"Socks\" that I'd like you to perform for us. And it's called \"What's That Sound?\" And I think everyone in the band is going to chime in on that one.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...If you get them in - you know what I mean? So it was always kind of - tiger can't change his stripes. And I'm a rock \u2019n\u2019 roll tiger, man."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 121, "text": "So this is JD McPherson and his band performing in our studio, and the song is \"What's That Sound?\" And it's also on their new Christmas album, which is called \"Socks.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, this one, I think, is probably getting down to the root of that anti-cynicism sentiment we were just speaking about. This is - this one's about all of those nice things that you can experi"}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 122, "text": "Oh, that was great. Thank you so much for performing for us in our studio. It's just been wonderful. I wish you all merry Christmas, a really happy and healthy 2019 and great musical things, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) What's that sound at the door I hear? I heard that same merry sound last year. Neighbors are caroling around the town, trying to spread a little bit of joy around. I hear that sound. It make"}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 123, "text": "Thank you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 124, "text": "...For doing this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for doing this."}
{"id": "675628082", "date": "2018-12-11", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 125, "text": "Our thanks to JD McPherson and his band. Their new Christmas album is called \"Socks.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, from prisoner to crime reporter - I'll talk with Keri Blakinger about her experiences in prison, including solitary on narcotics charges. She now covers criminal justice, specializing in prisons and the death penalty for the Houston Chronicle. We'll also discuss some of the Texas prison reforms her reporting has led to. I hope you'll join us. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Today's concert was produced by Amy Salit and recorded by Joyce Lieberman (ph) with help from Al Banks (ph). Our technical director is Audrey Bentham. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Our pleasure."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Bruce Springsteen's Broadway show closes tomorrow night, but you can still see it, and you don't have to go to Broadway. It was filmed for Netflix and will start streaming this weekend. There's also a new soundtrack from the show. We're going to listen to the interview I recorded with Springsteen in 2016 in his home studio in New Jersey, not far from where he grew up. His memoir, which had just been published, shares the title of his most famous song - \"Born To Run.\" The theme of that anthem is escape, but in much of the book, Springsteen reflects on how he and his music were shaped by home, roots, blood, community, freedom and responsibility. Throughout the book, you sense the presence of Springsteen's father, from whom Springsteen says he learned the rigidity and blue-collar narcissism of manhood '50s style. His Broadway show is adapted from the memoir. Let's hear an excerpt from the show's new soundtrack.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 1, "text": "When Springsteen's memoir was published, he released a companion CD called \"Chapter And Verse\" featuring a selection of songs that span his career. When we spoke, we started with a track from it, the demo version of the song we were just listening to, \"Growin' Up.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's how good I am."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 2, "text": "Bruce Springsteen, welcome to FRESH AIR. And thank you for welcoming us into your studio. I'd love it if you would start by reading the very opening from the forward of your book. It's really a fantastic book, and I'd like our listeners to just hear a little bit of your writing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK, take two. (Singing) Well, I stood stone-like at midnight, suspended in my masquerade. I combed my hair till it was just right and commanded the night brigade. I was open to pain and crossed by the"}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 3, "text": "Thanks for reading that. So many of your songs, particularly the early ones, are about, you know, like, searching for a dream and wanting to, like, bust out of the confines of your life. And in some ways, you know, I get the impression from your book that that was your father's story, except he never found the dream. It's kind of like - a little bit like the story that you describe in your song, \"The River.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK, my pleasure. (Reading) I come from a boardwalk town where almost everything is tinged with a bit of fraud - so am I. By 20, no race-car-driving rebel. I was a guitar player on the streets of Asbur"}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 4, "text": "Because when you were 19, he moved to California.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it was just incredible for everybody. So you're correct. My parents did really sort of live out a big part of that story. And to a certain degree, he did find his little piece of what he was"}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 5, "text": "Difficult mental illness.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, they moved out West, which was a huge undertaking because no one - it's like - it was like moving to another planet for them. But I think that's what my father wanted to do. He wanted to move to"}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 6, "text": "Do you think the song \"Born To Run\" is in part about him and in part about you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, difficult to manage. But I believe he did feel like he found something there that he couldn't have found at home."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 7, "text": "Except you had a dream in a way that your father maybe didn't have a dream that he could articulate.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And looking back on it, my parents lived out quite a bit of that story themselves."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 8, "text": "Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It certainly wasn't one he could articulate. It was just I got to get out of here."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 9, "text": "...So this is - this story, I think, is really interesting. You tell a story how in 1967, there's a lot of friction between you and your father. And you're in your teens. You're growing your hair long. You're into music. And long hair then, probably particularly in the working-class town where you were, was a pretty...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And..."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 10, "text": "And a radical thing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...It was unusual."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 11, "text": "Making a statement", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was an unusual thing. It was."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was an unusual thing. It was."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 13, "text": "So you were in a motorcycle accident, got thrown, like, 20 feet, like, really hurt yourself pretty bad. You were in the hospital. You get home. Your father calls in a barber...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You were making a statement."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 14, "text": "...And a barber cuts your hair against your will.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 15, "text": "I'll bet you didn't.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's funny now. I didn't think it was funny then."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 16, "text": "I actually found it an upsetting story because here, like, you barely survived. You're laying there disabled, and your father takes advantage of you and cuts off something that you love that's part of your identity when you're already so physically wounded. It just - it felt very unfair to me. How did it feel to you at the time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "the barber was called and Samson's locks were trimmed."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 17, "text": "So you write, too, about your father that he was kind of very - let me quote you because you put it so well - you write that (reading) he loved me but he couldn't stand me. He felt we competed for my mother's affections. We did. He also saw in me too much of his real self. Inside, beyond his rage, he harbored a gentleness, timidity, shyness and a dreamy insecurity. These were things I wore on the outside, and the reflection of these qualities in his boy repelled him. I was soft, and he hated soft. Of course, he'd been brought up soft. A mama's boy, just like me. So that timidity and shyness that you wore on the outside, it's kind of like the opposite of your stage persona.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Such was the lay of the land at the time. I mean, of course, I was furious about it at the time. And - but what can you say? It's water under the bridge."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 18, "text": "Can you tell us a little bit more about the timidity and shyness of your youth?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know, it's bizarre."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 19, "text": "Do you know - like, you say in the book that you used to use - you were so nervous for a while during your childhood that you blinked, like, a hundred times a minute.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I've got to take my - I've got to take some blame for that myself, I guess. But, yeah, just it was - when I was young, you know, I was very shy, and that was my personality. You know, I was a prett"}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 20, "text": "And you chewed your knuckles. Was there a specific cause of that anxiety or is it just, do you think, the way you were wired...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 21, "text": "So do you think that your stage persona draws both from, like, the angry and uninhibited side of you and the more inhibited, timid side of you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I never - I mean, I never found out, you know. It was just tremendous anxiety, you know, tremendous feeling of being out of control of your young life."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 22, "text": "If you're just joining us, I'm talking to Bruce Springsteen. Let's take a short break here, then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's both there. I think if you just - you know, I think plenty of folks, if you just looked at the outside, it can read - you know, it's pretty alpha male - you know? Which is - is a little i"}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, I'm with Bruce Springsteen. And we're recording this interview in his home studio. So you also lived near the church.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's both there. I think if you just - you know, I think plenty of folks, if you just looked at the outside, it can read - you know, it's pretty alpha male - you know? Which is - is a little i"}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 24, "text": "And church was a part of your life. And you write about Catholicism (reading) this is the world where I found the beginnings of my song. In Catholicism, there existed the poetry, danger and darkness that reflected my imagination and my inner self. I found a language of great and harsh beauty, of fantastic stories, of unimaginable punishment and infinite reward. Are there particular, like, Bible stories or, like, religious paintings that really made an impression on you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 25, "text": "Maybe especially since the church was just about next-door to you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. It was more just the basics. I think when you're a child, you just cling to the basics, which is the basic story of Jesus and the crucifixion and hell and eternal punishment and the flames. This w"}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 26, "text": "What things were you afraid of, hell?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. So these things - and also because we lived in the presence of the church and the convent and the rectory and the school 24/7. And this was an enormous cornerstone in the lives of my entire f"}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 27, "text": "Of eternal damnation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 28, "text": "So when your father told the family that he had to leave New Jersey and go to California, and he was going to do it. He hoped the family came with him, but he was going to go one way or another.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That one, too, you know. So, you know, these were stories that were not stories, you know, they were simply facts. This is what occurred. This is what can occur unless you tow the line, my friend, you"}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 29, "text": "And so he left. Your mother went with him. Your youngest sister went with him. Your sister, who was in the middle, was 17, she'd just gotten pregnant. You say she didn't even know how to make toast.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 30, "text": "And your parents left...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 31, "text": "And you were 19. And suddenly, you know, suddenly, there were no authority figures in your life. I mean, your parents were gone. Your father wasn't going to, you know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I may be a little harsh on her there. I think she knew how to make toast."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 32, "text": "...Whatever he was doing, he wasn't going to do it anymore.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 33, "text": "He wasn't going to be around. What did that freedom feel like to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 34, "text": "You were already gone?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "By the time I was 19, my parents weren't very authoritative over my life."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 35, "text": "We're listening back to my 2016 interview with Bruce Springsteen, recorded in his home studio after the publication of his memoir, which he later adapted into his solo Broadway show. The show closes tomorrow but was filmed for Netflix and will start streaming Sunday. There's also a new soundtrack of the show. We'll talk about the Asbury Park era of his life and more after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. At the time, I was already down at the shore. And I was staying out overnight and sleeping on the beach and, you know, playing - going - coming home at 3, 4 a.m. after having played a show, or i"}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 36, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Bruce Springsteen. His Broadway show closes tomorrow, but it was filmed for Netflix and starts streaming Sunday morning. There's also a new soundtrack of the show. The show was adapted from his 2016 memoir. I spoke with him when the book was published. We recorded the interview in his home studio in New Jersey not far from where he grew up. During your early years as a musician, you were in Asbury Park, boardwalk, carnival atmosphere. What did you love about that kind of urban beach", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Sandy, that waitress I was seeing, lost her desire for me. I spoke with her last night. She said she won't set herself on fire for me anymore. She worked that joint under the boardwalk. She "}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 37, "text": ", you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Sandy, that waitress I was seeing, lost her desire for me. I spoke with her last night. She said she won't set herself on fire for me anymore. She worked that joint under the boardwalk. She "}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 38, "text": "And the - you know, Madame Marie and all of the - like, all of the boardwalk regulars, you made great stories out of those characters, great songs out of those characters. But what appealed to you about knowing them and writing about them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 39, "text": "But you connected in some way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "..."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 40, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Reason. But I went, and I just fit in there. Asbury was down on its luck but not as bad as it would get. And so there was a lot of room to move. You know, clubs were open till 5 a.m. There were gay"}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 41, "text": "And that's one of the things that really interests me in comparing you to Dylan because when you first started, people comparing you to Dylan, one of the new Dylans...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, we fit very comfortably in that picture. And then when I went to write, I just wrote about what was around me. It fired my imagination. It was - of course, was a colorful locale. The city wa"}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 42, "text": "...And everything. In some ways, like, persona-wise, you're the opposite. He changed his name. He surrounded himself in mystery. His lyrics are very obscure. Your lyrics tell stories. You're all about a place. You reveal so much about yourself and the world around you in your songs that - you know what I mean? Like, I know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 43, "text": "I know that you're more than what you literally tell us about in the songs. But still, you have an identity and try to tell us something of who you are in your songs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 44, "text": "I want to quote you again. So you write - this is toward the beginning of your career - (reading) I wanted to be a voice that reflected experience and the world I live in. So I knew in 1972 that, to do this, I would need to write very well and more individually than I had ever written before. And this was - at some point you realized too that although you had, like, the most popular bar band in", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You just go where your psychology leads you. I think - you know, I've always loved the fact that Bob's been able to sustain his mystery over 50 or 60 years. That's - in this day and age, that's quite "}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 45, "text": "Asbury Park that there was a bigger world. There was a lot of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You just go where your psychology leads you. I think - you know, I've always loved the fact that Bob's been able to sustain his mystery over 50 or 60 years. That's - in this day and age, that's quite "}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 46, "text": "...Talented people. And in order to, like, be someone in that world, to have a career, to make a difference, that you had to figure out what was unique about you, and you had to write great songs. And in fact, you achieved that. You wrote great songs. But, you know, how did you go about trying to write the best songs that you could, I mean, when you knew that a lot of this was going to depend on the songwriting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 47, "text": "You - you've lived your life - a lot of your life - on the road. And for a lot of your early years, I mean, you were single. You were in monogamous or semi-monogamous", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I thought about signing a record deal or writing something that might put me in the position - because I'd already had plenty of things that had fallen through with my rock bands - I looked at my"}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 48, "text": "relationships, as you describe it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I thought about signing a record deal or writing something that might put me in the position - because I'd already had plenty of things that had fallen through with my rock bands - I looked at my"}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 49, "text": "But you weren't married. You didn't have children. You had a first marriage. And then Patti Scialfa joined the band, and you got married. And you have three children now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 50, "text": "What did it take for you to see family as something that was a wonderful thing, as opposed to something that was going to harm your sense of freedom and flexibility...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 51, "text": "...And creativity?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 52, "text": "Was it helpful to be married to somebody who was in the band?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I didn't have a blueprint from my childhood that I could call on, which is an enormous deficit when you're trying to put together a family life. I didn't see a family life where men were thriving in"}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 53, "text": "Because she would certainly understand what life on the road was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think so."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 54, "text": "...And what being a musician is because she is one.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 55, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Bruce Springsteen. I'm actually his guest because we're recording this in his home studio.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think so. Patti was an artist and a musician, and she was a songwriter. And she was a lot like me in that she was transient also. She worked busking on the streets in New York. She waitressed."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 56, "text": "We're going to take a short break here, and then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 57, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Bruce Springsteen. But as I've said, we're really a guest in his home studio.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 58, "text": "Thank you. You started going to therapy in 1983. And at some point, you say, in your 60s, you had a really bad depression. And I'm wondering if you thought about, during that period when you were very depressed, how many people in the world really wanted to be you? And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Welcome, welcome."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 59, "text": "Yeah, right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Doesn't count for that much at the time."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 60, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, but - you know, people see you on stage and yeah, I'd want to be that guy. I want to be that guy myself very often."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 61, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know? I get plenty - I have plenty of days where I go, man, I wish I could be that guy. And..."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 62, "text": "You write about how being on stage is almost like medicine for you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "my daily existence."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 63, "text": "You know, does it get you out of yourself? Does it...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 64, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, of course. You're immediately pulled out of the - your - the inside of your head, and it immediately changes your frame of mind. I've never been on stage where I've - no, that's not true. I have b"}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 65, "text": "During the depression, there was a period of a year and a half when you weren't on the road. You were home with one of your sons - I guess with your youngest?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's just nothing weirder you can do. If you're up there thinking about what you're doing, you're just not there. And it's not going to happen. So you have to learn to sort of overcome that tendenc"}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 66, "text": "Did that contribute to the depression because you couldn't be on stage, and you couldn't have that kind of cathartic experience?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mm-hm."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 67, "text": "As you mention in your book, you wanted to write songs that you wouldn't outgrow, that you could sing as an adult...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I tend to be not my own best company. I can get a little lost when - if I don't have my work to occasionally focus me. But at the same time, you've got to be able to figure that out. The year an"}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 68, "text": "...That weren't just kids' songs. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 69, "text": "...You know, done. Accomplished", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 70, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 71, "text": "But when you sing some of your early songs now, as you still do, like \"Born To Run,\" does the song have a different meaning to you than it did when you first started, you know, performing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 72, "text": "What's an example of a song that's taken on a different meaning or more meaning for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- they sort of gather the years up as time passes. And you can revisit - the wonderful thing about my job is you can revisit your 22-year-old self or your 24-year-old self any particular night you wan"}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 73, "text": "As someone who grew up in Brooklyn and now lives in Philadelphia, I love that you've continued to live in New Jersey - not only in New Jersey, but not far from where you grew up. Why have you stayed close to the home that your father left? Your father went to the opposite coast when you were a teenager.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A lot of the ones that are people's favorites. You know, \"Born To Run,\" I - that expands every time we go out. It just seems to - you - more of your life fills it in, fills in the story. And when we h"}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 74, "text": "So we've been recording this interview in your home studio. Would you just tell us a little bit about the studio? I mean, it was built for you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- it's rather ironic. But I just felt very comfortable here, and I was uncomfortable with city life. I was more or less a kid that came out of a small town. And I was a beach bum and loved the ocean a"}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 75, "text": "Yes, because I'm looking through a curtain.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Patti built this studio. She really - she with some help. This was just part of our garage. And..."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 76, "text": "Well, the curtain's closed now. But when it was open, there was, like, a big vintage...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 77, "text": "...Car or truck or motorcycles and - yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, there's a lot of motorcycles over there."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 78, "text": "...Most studios don't have a garage attached to it like that", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And there's a lot of - we're surrounded..."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 79, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And there's a lot of - we're surrounded..."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 80, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We're surrounded by vintage automobiles and motorcycles."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 81, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But this piece of the garage, Patti said, well, let's make a studio out of it because we were using the house across the street to record in for a long time. And I said, OK, you know, go ahead. See wh"}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 82, "text": "Bruce Springsteen, I can't thank you enough for...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We're surrounded by guitars, keyboards, recording decks. It's just a paradise."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 83, "text": "...Inviting us into your studio and allowing us to do this interview.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 84, "text": "Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 85, "text": "And I really love the book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very enjoyable. I appreciate it."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 86, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks a lot."}
{"id": "676686740", "date": "2018-12-14", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 87, "text": "My interview with Bruce Springsteen was recorded in his home studio in 2016 after the publication of his memoir, which he adapted into his Broadway show. The show closes tomorrow, but it was recorded for Netflix and will start streaming Sunday. There's also a new soundtrack of the show. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Born in a dead man's town, the first kick I took was when I hit the ground. End up like a dog that's been beat too much, till you spend half your life just covering up now. Born in the USA, "}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 0, "text": "That's Loudon Wainwright performing in the studio. Thank you for doing that. Let's talk about family. Let's start with the family you were born into. Your father was a columnist for Life magazine in the '60s through the '80s. He wrote a column called The View From Here. You were raised in an affluent suburb of New York. Your father went to prep school. You were sent to prep school. And you felt that part of your job in life was not being him", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) It's all in the family. That's no lie - even stays that way after we die. Leaves, branches, twigs on a family tree and the forest can be hard to see. Mother and father are in charge, and the"}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 1, "text": ". What parts of him did you especially not want to be?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) It's all in the family. That's no lie - even stays that way after we die. Leaves, branches, twigs on a family tree and the forest can be hard to see. Mother and father are in charge, and the"}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 2, "text": "He had affairs. Some of them were long as well as secret. He drank a lot, like you said. How did your mother find out about the affairs that he was having, especially the one that was, like, seven years long?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he was a - he sent me to the same boarding school that he was miserable at. Let's put it that way. We can start with that. He was kind of a depressive fellow. I'm sorry to say. I mean, he - I th"}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 3, "text": "You know, we mentioned that some of your patterns, like, you know, having relationships with other women while you were, you know, married or raising a child with someone who you were in a long-term relationship with - and you realized that at some point, you were repeating some of the behavior that your father had followed. Did you see his life differently when you realized that your life was in some ways an echo of some of his behavior?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know? And I think probably my mother knew that he was out and about but maybe didn't want to know the details or didn't want to face the reality of it. And then - again, both my parents are dead"}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 4, "text": "I guess part of my question is when you re-examine his life through the lens of your adult life...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's funny, and one of the things I write about in the book is about this trip to Australia that we took. I think it was probably - the two of us. I did - I went to Australia for the first time "}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 5, "text": "Did you have more sympathy for him, or were you equally angry at him and at yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 6, "text": "You have his name.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I know that I have a lot - I have more sympathy for him now. And that's just because I'm much - I'm older, and I - I've lived a while. I'm not - I don't feel like I'm angry at my father at all a"}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 7, "text": "He was Loudon Wainwright Jr. You're Loudon Wainwright III, and my impression from your memoir is that you kind of resented having the same name as he did 'cause, I mean, you didn't want to be him. And here you were just connected even by name. And just seeing your name on paper, people would have to ask, is that Loudon Wainwright the magazine writer? And so how did it feel when you put out your first album and you were Loudon Wainwright III - 'cause I think a lot of people, maybe me included, thought, oh, the III is probably ironic because it sounds so kind of, like, formal and kingly", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 8, "text": ", you know, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 9, "text": "But it was your actual name. Did you want to use the III on the album?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 10, "text": "Which is an interesting thing to say, but you didn't change it. Like, on your book cover...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not particularly. But, you know, we have the same name. Loudon - get a load of the middle name - Loudon Snowden Wainwright is the name. And - but I got a record deal in 1969 with the Atlantic. You kno"}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 11, "text": "...You're Loudon Wainwright III.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I used the III. I..."}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My first album was called \"Loudon Wainwright III,\" and then the second album was called \"Album II.\""}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then I said to my manager at the time - I said, why don't we call it the III's third 33 1/3?"}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 14, "text": "Was your father angry that you were bringing this up basically on his deathbed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he said no, so we called it \"Album III.\""}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 15, "text": "And to find out the information and, like, why.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "he should've been. I mean, I was trying to get last licks or something like that. It was a pretty tacky thing to do. On the other hand, though, I'm glad I got to air my feelings, as they say."}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 16, "text": "You know, you write about how your father's death was in some ways liberating. But at the same time, you were just, like, overcome with this grief you didn't even know you had. You just - you heard yourself bawling.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's return to Terry's conversation with Loudon Wainwright III from last year. His one-man stage show, featuring his father's columns in Life Magazine, is now on Netflix. It's call"}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 17, "text": "And then you write about how when your mother died, you just fell apart. I mean, you just, like, sank into this depression. What was the difference between those two deaths for you emotionally?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 18, "text": "You have a beautiful song about that called \"Homeless.\" Would you play some of that for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, my father and I had a - we're competitive. You know, we went to the same boarding school. We had the same name. We were, you know, father-son competitors in that kind of Oedipal way. Y"}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 19, "text": "It's a really beautiful song. So several of your children were not planned. They were surprises.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. (Singing, playing guitar) When you were alive, I was never alone. Somewhere in the world, there was something called home. And as long as you live, I would be all right. There were reasons to wi"}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 20, "text": "And now they're adults.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 21, "text": "And it must be so - I don't have children, but it must be so interesting to have watched children who you didn't expect to have become not only born but then, like, become full people and to see what that moment in your life led to.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 22, "text": "Let's end with another song that relates to your father. He had said to you once - no, I think you read it actually in one of his columns...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I have four kids, and they're all formidable. You know, three of them are singers and talented - and songwriters and very talented. Rufus and Martha and Lucy are in the business and doing well i"}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 23, "text": "...That he wrote I want to double lifetime.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, right."}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 24, "text": "He wanted to live longer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well, I wish you'd get a double lifetime, so you could just keep writing songs for us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he - it was on this trip that we took in '82 to Australia. And I - after he died in '88, Martha Fay, the woman that he had lived with for the last 20 years of his life, gave me these little blac"}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 26, "text": "I'm going to ask you to do a song from the new album called \"Hitting You\" that's - it's a really - it's a kind of song that I imagine is very difficult to write. Why don't we hear it? And then we could talk about why I think it must have been very difficult to write it because you don't hear a lot of songs about a subject like this. Do you want to introduce it in anyway before you play it?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's interviews with singer-songwriter Loudon Wainwright III. His one-man stage show \"Surviving Twin,\" in which he sings"}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 27, "text": "It's a wonderful song, and I can't think of another one like it. I can't think of another song about a parent hitting their child and regretting it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's about Martha. This is a pretty heavy song. The song - well, the song explains itself really. (Singing) Long ago, I hit you. We were in the car. You were crazy in the back seat. It had gone "}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 28, "text": "Why is it really unique to write a song like that? I mean, I don't think it lends itself to most pop song - most pop songs are about, first of all, pretty simple subjects, not something as emotionally complicated as what's happening in that song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 29, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the thing that - for me, the interesting thing was that it was written from the point of view of the perpetrator..."}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 30, "text": "Did your - how well did your daughter remember that first time when...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Rather than the victim. When I wrote the song - and actually, Martha was the first person that I sang it for because that was a case where I called her, and I said, I want you to hear this. It's ab"}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 31, "text": "I mean, obviously, it had a really big effect on you. Did it have that big effect on her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The incident with the bathing suit."}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 32, "text": "You have a song called \"A Father And A Son\" that's about you as an adult dealing with a teenage son.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think it did. I mean, it isn't as though I hit her a lot of times. I mean, surely, she probably - she may have remembered it. But I was the one who remembered it the most, I think."}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 33, "text": "Oh, really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that one that's dropping out of college now."}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 34, "text": "Tell me what was on your mind when you wrote this song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 35, "text": "Let me ask you to do the song for us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, a lot of the songs - again, it's that thing of - I have another song, an older song called, \"Your Mother And I\" where I'm explaining to a child about the breakup of the marriage. And this song i"}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 36, "text": "This is Loudon Wainwright, and the song he's about to perform is also featured on his new album, \"History.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right."}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 37, "text": "That's Loudon Wainwright. Did you play that one for your son after you wrote it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) When I was your age, I was just like you and just look at me now. I'm sure you do. Your grandfather was just as bad. You should have heard him trash his dad. Life's no picnic. That's a given"}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 38, "text": "What did he think?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he's heard it."}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 39, "text": "Is this a way for you to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think he likes it."}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 40, "text": "Yeah", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To communicate with my children?"}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 41, "text": ", exactly. Can you say things through your songs that you wouldn't just sit down and talk at the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To communicate with my children?"}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 42, "text": "...Kitchen table?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it is..."}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 43, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Probably. You know, I think - you know, writing songs and singing songs is probably the best thing that I can do as a person. Everything else is - I don't do as well..."}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 44, "text": "There is a song on your new album that - it's a beautiful song about your late father, who died about four years ago. And it's much more of a pure love song in a lot of ways than most of the songs that you write.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1992 interview with singer-songwriter Loudon Wainwright III. His new Netflix special is called \"Surviving Twin.\""}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 45, "text": "Well, let me ask you to play the song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. Well, as I sang in the last song, you know, my father and I had a difficult relationship. But obviously, when somebody dies that's so important, like a parent or a family member - or, you "}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 46, "text": "That's a really moving song. How long after your father died did you write that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. (Singing) Sometimes I forget that you've gone. You've gone, and you're not coming back. And it's hard to believe you're still a lot here. What's left behind disputes that fact. Your closet's still"}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 47, "text": "Well, I can't thank you enough for coming and doing this concert with us. It's really been a pleasure, and I love the new record.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I got to work on it right away. I mean, since I'm a songwriter, you know, when something big happens, my first instinct is to write about it. And I knew that somewhere somehow I had to do someth"}
{"id": "679098737", "date": "2018-12-21", "guest": "Loudon Wainwright Iii", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III Opens Up About The 'Exes & Excess' That Inform His Music", "question_index": 48, "text": "Thanks so much for being here.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thanks."}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today we begin a holiday week series of favorite interviews of the year, as chosen by our listeners and our producers. The interview we've selected for this Christmas Eve was our second most downloaded podcast of the year. It's about composer Richard Rodgers and lyricist Oscar Hammerstein who had one of the most successful musical partnerships of the 20th century. They wrote songs for the musicals \"Oklahoma!,\" \"Carousel,\" \"South Pacific,\" \"The King And I,\" \"Cinderella,\" \"Flower Drum Song\" and \"The Sound Of Music\" - musicals that continue to be revived. We're going to hear from Todd Purdum, author of the book \"Something Wonderful: Rodgers And Hammerstein's Broadway Revolution,\" which tells the story of their partnership. Purdum loves their music, but he's best known as a political reporter. He covers politics and culture for The Atlantic, is a contributing editor for Vanity Fair and senior writer for Politico. We're going to hear some Rodgers and Hammerstein cast recordings. Purdum also selected a couple of Rodgers and Hammerstein interview excerpts that we'll hear. When we recorded our interview last April, we started with this recording of Sarah Vaughan and Miles Davis of Rodgers' and Hammerstein's song \"It Might As Well Be Spring,\" which they wrote for their 1945 movie musical \"State Fair.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 1, "text": "Todd Purdum, welcome back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I'm as restless as a willow in a wind storm. I'm as jumpy as a puppet on a string. I'd say that I had spring fever, but I know it isn't spring."}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 2, "text": "So before there was a Rodgers and Hammerstein, there was a Rodgers and Hart. Rodgers and Hart had a very long partnership. Hart's death officially ended their partnership, but it was already ending. So before we get to how Hammerstein entered the picture, why were things between Rodgers and Hart so rocky at the end?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a pleasure to be here."}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 3, "text": "So at the end of the Rodgers and Hart partnership, Rodgers was ready to kind of leave Hart if Hart didn't stop drinking. He even offered to go to a sanitarium with him. But what happened was Hart just died. So Rodgers then teamed up with Oscar Hammerstein. How did their relationship start?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they had been close friends and partners for more than two decades, Terry. But as you point out, as 1942 rolled around, Larry Hart was increasingly falling prey to a problem that had plagued him"}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 4, "text": "So because Rodgers and Hammerstein are such a famous pair now and their songs and their shows are so famous, we take it for granted that people always recognized what a great pairing this would be. But that's actually not what happened", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they'd known each other for years. Oscar Hammerstein was a contemporary of Larry Hart's at Columbia University and he had known - and of Richard Rodgers' older brother, Morty. And Rodgers had kn"}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 5, "text": ". Yeah, initially there was a lot of skepticism about them. And I want to play a clip that you suggested to us. And it's an interview from 1960 in which Tony Thomas is interviewing Richard Rodgers and asking why it was so hard to get \"Oklahoma!\" off the ground.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they'd known each other for years. Oscar Hammerstein was a contemporary of Larry Hart's at Columbia University and he had known - and of Richard Rodgers' older brother, Morty. And Rodgers had kn"}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 6, "text": "So that was Richard Rodgers being interviewed in 1960. And my guest Todd Purdum is the author of the new book \"Something Wonderful: Rodgers And Hammerstein's Broadway Revolution.\" So \"Oklahoma!\" was considered a breakthrough. What made it a breakthrough?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. But nobody took that very seriously. These were two amateur songs that we wrote together for a college show. And there was an almost superstitious feeling on the part of the people in the busines"}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 7, "text": "So \"Green Grow The Lilacs,\" the play that \"Oklahoma!\" was adapted from, was written in France by a 29-year-old gay cowboy turned poet and playwright who was from Oklahoma. And you say he was trying in that play to capture his nostalgic feelings about growing up in Oklahoma before it was a state. So Hammerstein worked the stage directions into his lyric for \"Oh, What A Beautiful Morning,\" which is one of the songs from \"Oklahoma!\" Would you read the stage directions? And then we'll hear the song. And we'll see how Hammerstein worked in the stage directions into the lyric.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, for one thing almost all musical comedies of that era opened with a big choral number to satisfy latecomers, the rustling playbills. They'd get them adjusted. They'd have a display of pulchritud"}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 8, "text": "OK. So do you want to say anything about how that was worked into \"Oh, What A Beautiful Morning\" before we hear the song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Here's what Lynn Riggs wrote in the stage directions to the prologue to the play. (Reading) It is a radiant summer morning several years ago. The kind of morning, which enveloping the shapes of Earth "}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 9, "text": "OK. So let's hear it. And this is Alfred Drake from the original cast recording.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well - so Oscar Hammerstein took that kind of ripe passage of prose and turned it into the first poetry that he ever wrote to give to Richard Rodgers in the opening lyrics of \"Oh, What A Beautiful Mor"}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 10, "text": "So that's from the original cast recording of \"Oklahoma!\" My guest Todd Purdum is a journalist who's written a new book about Rodgers and Hammerstein called \"Something Wonderful.\" And that - \"Something Wonderful\" was one of the songs from the Rodgers and Hammerstein show \"The King And I.\" So another thing about \"Oklahoma!\" is that, you know, it's considered the first or maybe the second", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) There's a bright golden haze on the meadow. There's a bright golden haze on the meadow. The corn is as high as an elephant's eye, and it looks like it's climbing clear up to the sky. Oh, wha"}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 11, "text": "Broadway show that actually had a cast album, although cast albums weren't then what they are now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) There's a bright golden haze on the meadow. There's a bright golden haze on the meadow. The corn is as high as an elephant's eye, and it looks like it's climbing clear up to the sky. Oh, wha"}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 12, "text": "So Richard Rodgers had a different approach to writing songs with Hammerstein than he did with Hart. And he was asked about that in a 1960 interview with Tony Thomas. And we're going to play a short excerpt of that interview in which Rodgers talks about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, they were actually albums full of 78s and brown paper sleeves. But the genius of \"Oklahoma!\" was that Decca Records decided to record the original cast, the original orchestrations. They put it ou"}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 13, "text": "OK. So that was Richard Rodgers in 1960. Todd Purdum, what were some of the other differences that Rodgers faced writing with Hammerstein as opposed to with Larry Hart?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And that was logical enough. Oscar is one of the few people in the entire world who has a - I'm talking about lyric-wise, of course - who has a tremendous sense of construction. And without a tun"}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 14, "text": "So a beautiful song from \"Carousel\" is \"If I Loved You.\" And Stephen Sondheim, who was mentored by Oscar Hammerstein - and Hammerstein was like a surrogate father for Sondheim - he called \"If I Loved You\" probably the singular, most important moment in the evolution of contemporary musicals. What does Sondheim think is so important about that song and how it's done in the show?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, for one thing, Hammerstein's habits were extremely regular. He was just as predictable as Larry Hart was unpredictable. But he and Dick usually didn't work in the same room. Hammerstein usually "}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 15, "text": "So let's hear an excerpt of \"If I Loved You\" from the original cast recording of \"Carousel.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in the show, \"If I Loved You\" is set in the middle of an extended scene of spoken dialogue, sung dialogue and the purely sung song. It's known as the bench scene. And it's when the hero of the s"}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 16, "text": "So that was \"If I Loved You\" from the original cast recording of \"Carousel.\" And we had Jan Clayton and John Raitt, who, in addition to being a famous Broadway singer, was Bonnie Raitt's father. So it's interesting to compare the original lyrics of that song with lyrics that were actually used. So I'm going to ask you to read some of the original lyrics, if you don't mind.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nothing. I know what it'd be like. It'd be awful. I can just see myself. (Singing) Kind of scrawny and pale, picking at my food and lovesick like any other guy. I'd throw away my sweater and dress up "}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 17, "text": "You want to compare that to the final lyric?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So in a way, Hammerstein's first attempt at a lyric was just as halting as the would-be lovers' own proclamations. (Reading) If I loved you, I would tremble every time you'd say my name. But I'd long "}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's certainly a testament to the benefit of a second draft. I told my children in writing this book..."}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 19, "text": "The female star of \"South Pacific\" was Mary Martin, who later starred in Rodgers and Hammerstein's \"The Sound Of Music.\" Why don't we hear Mary Martin singing the title song from \"The Sound Of Music\"? Do you want to say anything about how Rodgers and Hammerstein wrote this song before we hear it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I showed some of these things to them, said, this is why you have to write your papers two or three times. You don't just go with the first inspiration. So at the end, what Oscar produced was this. (R"}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 20, "text": "OK, so here's Mary Martin.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One thing to keep in mind as you listen to Mary Martin sing this song is that she was almost 46 years old when the show opened. She was playing a young postulant. But the conventions of theater were s"}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 21, "text": "That was Mary Martin from the original cast recording of \"Sound Of Music.\" My guest Todd Purdum is the author of the new book \"Something Wonderful: Rodgers And Hammerstein's Broadway Revolution.\" Boy, the songs in that show have such staying power. Just last night", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) The hills are alive with the sound of music, with songs they have sung for a thousand years. The hills fill my heart with the sound of music. My heart wants to sing every song it hears. My h"}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 22, "text": ", as I was finishing reading your book, a commercial came on TV for Volvo that's using \"My Favorite Things\" as the music in the ad.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) The hills are alive with the sound of music, with songs they have sung for a thousand years. The hills fill my heart with the sound of music. My heart wants to sing every song it hears. My h"}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 23, "text": "So I don't know how you feel about this, but there's the people who think Hammerstein's lyrics are a little too sentimental and corny some of the time and those who don't. I'm kind of on the side of sometimes they're a little too sentimental and corny. But apparently, Stephen Sondheim, who was mentored by Hammerstein, was like his son - he takes issue with some of Hammerstein's lyrics. Like, in \"Sound Of Music,\" which we just heard, the line like a lark who is learning to prey, Sondheim hates that line", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, it's ubiquitous. It's part of the soundtrack of life. When you go to Disneyland, songs from \"Oklahoma!\" - \"The Surrey With The Fringe On Top\" and \"Everything's Up To Date In Kansas City\""}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 24, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, it's ubiquitous. It's part of the soundtrack of life. When you go to Disneyland, songs from \"Oklahoma!\" - \"The Surrey With The Fringe On Top\" and \"Everything's Up To Date In Kansas City\""}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 25, "text": "I mean, on the other hand, like, Billy Bigelow in \"Carousel,\" you know, hits his wife.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, Sondheim is under no illusions. He's thinks Oscar Hammerstein saved his life. And, you know, he once said that Oscar was a man of limited talent and infinite soul, and Richard Rodgers was a man of"}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 26, "text": "We've been talking about Rodgers and Hammerstein's hit shows. They did have a few flops, including \"Allegro\" and a show called \"Pipe Dream\" that was based on John Steinbeck's \"Cannery Row.\" So this show - it's funny. Like, you write in your book that they turned down two opportunities for other shows...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's very uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable in the original play, \"Liliom.\" And it's uncomfortable in \"Carousel\" - that she could tell her daughter, yes, it's possible for someone to hit you and it no"}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 27, "text": "...To do \"Pipe Dream,\" which ended up being a huge flop. What did they turn down to produce this flop?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 28, "text": "Right. OK", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they turned down what eventually became \"My Fair Lady\" and what eventually became \"Fiddler On The Roof.\" So, you know, their batting average was not perfect."}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 29, "text": ". However - well, I'm going to play a great song from it in a moment. But first, this is an interesting story because it's kind of set in a house of prostitution. Two of the characters are - one character is a madam. One character is a young girl who becomes a prostitute. I've never seen the show. I've only heard the cast recording. But apparently, this was not necessarily the perfect material for Oscar Hammerstein, who had a reputation as being a little prudish in his writing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they turned down what eventually became \"My Fair Lady\" and what eventually became \"Fiddler On The Roof.\" So, you know, their batting average was not perfect."}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 30, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, and Rodgers, too, in his own way. And John Steinbeck said at one point to Oscar, you've turned my prostitute into a visiting nurse."}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 31, "text": "Yeah. And there's a song - there's two songs I really love from it. But this one is called \"Everybody Has A Home But Me (ph).\" And in the original cast recording, it's sung by Judy Tyler, who'd played Princess Summerfall Winterspring on \"Howdy Doody.\" And I have to say, I was just listening back to the original cast recording last night. Her singing, with all due respect, isn't good on it. And she doesn't put across the song. Her pitch is kind of wavery. It's just not - you'd never know what a great song it is, in my opinion", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And the problem was that Rodgers and Hammerstein couldn't really quite bring themselves to make it clear that this was all happening in a whorehouse. They kind of cleaned it up, and it seemed a little"}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 32, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And the problem was that Rodgers and Hammerstein couldn't really quite bring themselves to make it clear that this was all happening in a whorehouse. They kind of cleaned it up, and it seemed a little"}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 33, "text": "However, when Encores did a revival of it just a few years ago, Laura Osnes sang this song. And she was recently in the revival of Rodgers and Hammerstein's \"Cinderella.\" She's got a beautiful voice, so let's hear her singing \"Everybody's Got A Home But Me.\" Will you set the scene for us about where this song fits into the show?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well - and she's too brassy for the character. The character is supposed to have a vulnerability underneath. And I think that she sounds a little bit too much like, you know, a belter. And that dimini"}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 34, "text": "OK. Here's Laura Osnes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this young prostitute has just arrived in Monterey from San Francisco on a bumpy, overnight bus ride. She's feeling pretty bedraggled. And she's trying to explain how she wound up where she is -"}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 35, "text": "That was Laura Osnes from the recent Encores revival of the Rodgers and Hammerstein flop", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I rode by a house with the windows lighted up, looking pretty as a Christmas tree. And I said to myself as I rode by myself, everybody's got a home but me. I rode by a house where the moon w"}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 36, "text": "\"Pipe Dream.\" So do you love that song too, Todd?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I rode by a house with the windows lighted up, looking pretty as a Christmas tree. And I said to myself as I rode by myself, everybody's got a home but me. I rode by a house where the moon w"}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 37, "text": "Yeah. So how did they handle having such a big flop in which they lost their complete investment?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. When I first heard that song - I had never really known the score of \"Pipe Dream\" until I started to work on this book. I was overwhelmed with the beauty of the song. And I asked Ted Chapin, the "}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 38, "text": "I keep finding myself asking you more questions about Hammerstein than Rodgers. And I don't know whether that's because he was the writer, so there are kind of literal things to talk about, whereas music is more abstract, or whether he was the more visible personality than Rodgers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. For the first and only time, they invested their own money in the show, and they lost everything. They went on. The problem by the - mid-1950s, when \"Pipe Dream\" premiered, was that they were so "}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 39, "text": "What was the relationship like - the friendship between Rodgers and Hammerstein?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So, you know, there are a lot of Hammerstein's lyrics quoted in the book. We don't have any musical notations quoting Rodgers' music. And I try to explain in certain places how his music did what it"}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 40, "text": "Do you think one of the reasons why each didn't know if they were liked by the other was that they worked long distance - with Hammerstein in Pennsylvania and Rodgers in New York? They weren't in the same room composing. They weren't even in the same state. So they didn't have that kind of direct partnership where, you know, every day or every week, they're together in the same room working something out together, collaborating in real time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the thing that was most interesting to me in doing the research for the book was to come to realize how they had tremendous professional respect for each other. They had terrific artistic coll"}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 41, "text": "They had a 50-50 business relationship, and they formed a corporation under the advice from their manager or accountant. Can you tell us about their business partnership?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, no. It definitely wasn't the cinematic ideal of, you know, sitting around the piano and cranking something out together, you know. But I think part of the reason they worked long distance is bec"}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 42, "text": "So they were very savvy about that. But they - also people who they worked with weren't so happy with how they handled the business end. They kind of diminished other people's roles. Can you talk a little bit about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the important thing they decided to do from the very beginning was, whenever they could, to own their own work and to own it, in so far as they could, outright. Both had been in the theater for "}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 43, "text": "So I know you mostly as a political reporter from The New York Times in the past, from Vanity Fair, now Politico. So what are you doing writing a Rodgers and Hammerstein book?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "On the one hand, they were very loyal to the creative team that they worked with. They worked over and over again with the same orchestrator, the same vocal arranger, the same scenic designer. But man"}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 44, "text": "Todd Purdum, it's been great to talk with you again. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, these are the songs I grew up with, the songs my parents played on a record player. My brothers and sisters - my brother and sister and I all grew up listening to this music. It's really been th"}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 45, "text": "Todd Purdum's book about Rodgers and Hammerstein is called \"Something Wonderful.\" Our interview was recorded in April. It's kind of a FRESH AIR tradition to close our Christmas Eve show with one of the greatest holiday songs, \"Have Yourself A Merry Little Christmas,\" which was written by Hugh Martin and Ralph Blane and introduced by Judy Garland in the classic 1944 film \"Meet Me In St. Louis.\" This is Rosemary Clooney.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks so much for having me, Terry."}
{"id": "679124560", "date": "2018-12-24", "guest": "Sarah Vaughan", "title": "How Rodgers And Hammerstein Revolutionized Broadway", "question_index": 46, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross. All of us at FRESH AIR wish you a merry Christmas. And for those of you who will be working, thanks for holding things together, which is what makes it possible for others to take the day off.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Have yourself a merry little Christmas. Let your heart be light. From now on, our troubles will be out of sight. Have yourself a merry little Christmas. Make the yuletide gay. From now on, o"}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Merry Christmas. After pledging to never make an album of Christmas songs, my guest, roots and rockabilly musician JD McPherson, has broken that promise. And I'm really glad he did. His new album \"Socks\" features his original holiday songs, and they're really fun. Earlier this month, McPherson and his band came to our studio with their instruments to play some of those new Christmas songs and talk about music and other things. McPherson is a songwriter, singer and guitarist who was described by music critic Ann Powers as a supreme rock reinventor. McPherson grew up far away from the hubs of the music world on a cattle ranch in Oklahoma. His father runs the ranch. His mother is a preacher. Before becoming a full-time musician, McPherson taught art for four years to students in middle school. His Christmas album \"Socks\" is his fourth album.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 1, "text": "Welcome all of you to FRESH AIR. It's so exciting to have you here, and the new Christmas album is great. JD, I'm going to ask you to introduce the first song and to introduce the members of the band.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 2, "text": "Though Jason isn't here, I should say.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Certainly. So my name's JD McPherson, and over to my left is everybody else. That's Doug Corcoran, the utility guy who plays everything. Jimmy Sutton on bass. Ray Jacildo plays keys with background vo"}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's correct."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 4, "text": "We're not going to be hearing him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's too loud. He's..."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's too loud. He's in a straightjacket..."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 6, "text": "Too loud for our little studio.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...In the other room."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 7, "text": "OK. Do you want to introduce the first song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 8, "text": "Thank you so much for performing that. That is so great. And this is in our studio. We heard JD McPherson on vocals and guitar, Jimmy Sutton, bass and guitar and also singing backup vocals, Doug Corcoran and Ray Jacildo. And that is one of the songs that's also featured on JD's new album, which is called \"Socks.\" And it's an album of original Christmas songs. And it's really fun, just like the song we just heard. JD, why did you want to do a Christmas album? I'm glad you did it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. This is \"All The Gifts I Need.\" (Singing) Happiness is automatic. There's music in the air. Grab the boxes from the attic and haul them down the stairs. Freezing weather's around the corner, and"}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 9, "text": "Why did you want to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. This is \"All The Gifts I Need.\" (Singing) Happiness is automatic. There's music in the air. Grab the boxes from the attic and haul them down the stairs. Freezing weather's around the corner, and"}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I didn't want to for a long time. We had done a Christmas song. So I - you know, I started professional, like, touring, I guess you'd call it. I always had bands, but I started touring pretty - "}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 11, "text": "Wow, that's great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So a few years back, our label at the time said, why don't you do a Christmas song? And I said OK, and so I did it. And it actually went OK. And it was a lot of fun. I'm actually a big Christmas fan. "}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 12, "text": "So there's another Christmas song I'd like you to do, and it's called \"Ugly Sweater Blues.\" And a lot of people intentionally wear ugly sweaters to Christmas parties - really hideous ones. So did you ever have any, like, ugly sweater traditions or real-ugly sweaters that you were forced to wear?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Making a record."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was more of - so, you know, I'm a - I have three older brothers and an older sister. And they were all out of the house when I was born. I was a big surprise. And so it wasn't really sweaters"}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 14, "text": "I know the feeling. I knew the feeling. All right. Can you do that song for us? So this is JD McPherson and his band performing in our studio. We're going to hear JD on guitar and vocals, Jimmy Sutton on bass. Doug Corcoran is going to be playing steel guitar and Ray Jacildo - chimes. So here we go.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For - everybody has some point where they're being forced to wear clothes that they don't really want to. So ugly sweaters, I think, everybody - even if you haven't worn them, that's a thing that you "}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 15, "text": "That sounded great. That's such a great song", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Mama, don't make me wear that old thing again. Hand-knitted Christmas trees and a silly snowman - no matter if I refuse, I got these ugly sweater blues. Mama, why can't you see I feel like a"}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Mama, don't make me wear that old thing again. Hand-knitted Christmas trees and a silly snowman - no matter if I refuse, I got these ugly sweater blues. Mama, why can't you see I feel like a"}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 17, "text": "That song was written by JD McPherson, who we heard on guitar and vocals. And this is one of the songs that he wrote that's on the new Christmas album \"Socks\" that he recorded with his band. And thank you for playing this in the studio for us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is so much fun for me. So, JD, I want to ask you a little bit about your past 'cause you grew up on a cattle farm...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is so much fun. Thank you for having us."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 19, "text": "...In Oklahoma. So, like, describe it for us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 20, "text": "Did you have to do things on the cattle ranch?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One-hundred-sixty acres or thereabouts, an A-frame house that my dad built up on a hill. Southeast Oklahoma is really pretty. I think it's the prettiest part of Oklahoma - mountainous, kind of Ozark-t"}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 21, "text": "What'd you have to do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 22, "text": "So you had to do that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you have to feed them, first of all. And that was kind of - I think that's probably the - the best description is waking up at 5 in the morning before school and putting out a round bale, meal a"}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 23, "text": "And did you have to shovel anything?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 24, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, there's plenty of room. You don't have to worry about it too much."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 25, "text": "My knowledge of, like, cattle is kind of like cattle drive Westerns like the TV series \"Rawhide.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just walk - watch where you're walking."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 26, "text": "Nothing like that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 27, "text": "Really? Like, you call them...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, you just kind of call them and they come up and..."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 28, "text": "...And they come?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 29, "text": "What's the cattle call?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 30, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I can't do it here 'cause it's so loud, but it's kind of like (imitating cattle call)."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 31, "text": "Did that help you musically to learn how to do that when you were a kid?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 32, "text": "So you said there's nothing to do except obsess on music. So what music were you obsessing on early on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. Maybe that's where the first thing happened. I don't know. It could be."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 33, "text": "So you mentioned punk rock. Did you start in a punk rock band?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So that was the twain. We split up there."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So me and my friend Mitchell had three bands with the same - just the same two members basically. We would - my nephew eventually - we taught him how to play bass, so we had a trio and. But yeah"}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 35, "text": "But you had no...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was - I think that was John Sparks' backyard. Cowboys don't really like X..."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 36, "text": "Right. You had no audience.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And Buzzcocks and stuff like that."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 37, "text": "Oh, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 38, "text": "Oh, gee, that must've been...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But we worked so hard on it."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 39, "text": "That must've been so discouraging. You love this music, and there's nobody to listen to it with...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We made flyers."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 40, "text": "...Or to play it for.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not really."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 41, "text": "Now, since we're talking about Christmas 'cause you have a new Christmas album, I think that your first Telecaster guitar was a Christmas gift.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it was just fun. It's just a good - it's a good thing to do. And, you know, your idling - your idle setting at 14, 15 years old is frustration, so you just do stuff because you're supposed to "}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 42, "text": "What time was it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it was actually a Stratocaster, which is weird because I immediately shifted into being a Telecaster guy after that. But that was the best thing that I could have ever received. I mean, it was l"}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 43, "text": "Age 15.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was, like, probably 15."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 44, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was 15. And I didn't expect to get it. And I had got all my presents, and I was, you know, really grateful for all - and then all of a sudden, my brother brings in this white - you know wha"}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 45, "text": "So when you were growing up on a cattle farm, was it hard to get into town or to go to a store? It sounds like you had to call stores and shopping malls in another state in order to find music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was so stoked to have a real electric guitar, so - but then I discovered Joe Strummer and Keith Richards and Chrissie Hynde all had Telecasters, so I wanted to do that instead."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 46, "text": "It sounds isolated.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, the nearest..."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 47, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was really isolated. The nearest supermarket was about 45-minute drive. I mean, there was, like, little country stores here and there. But, you know, my folks would do their shopping in, like, McAl"}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 48, "text": "Did you vow, one day, I'm going to be in New York?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 49, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My sights were much smaller."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 50, "text": "Could we hear another Christmas song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We used to go to - we used to go to shows in Tulsa, and there's a really important venue there called Cain's Ballroom. And I saw, you know, all of my first concerts there. It's such an important place"}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 51, "text": "OK, so let me suggest one. How about \"Bad Kid\" from your new Christmas album, \"Socks?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. What are we doing?"}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 52, "text": "Can you all play that for us? And the musicians here are in the studio with me, and it's JD McPherson and his band. And we're hearing Jimmy Sutton on bass. And, Doug, what are you playing on this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 53, "text": "Baritone guitar", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Baritone guitar."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 54, "text": ", OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Baritone guitar."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 55, "text": "So when did you start getting interested in rockabilly?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Doug plays a lot of instruments - one, two, three four. (Singing) Oh, well, Christmastime is a time to be good. But baby, I'm a bad, bad kid. A stocking full of kerosene matches and wood - I guess I'm"}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 56, "text": "And, Jimmy, you're interested in that, too. And this is Jimmy Sutton, the bass player - because, like, you even have your own record label and studio. And the label's called Hi-Style.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, you know, some of those punk bands that I was into would do - would once in a while - like, OK, for instance, The Clash on \"London Calling,\" they did a song called \"Brand New Cadillac,\" which was "}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 57, "text": "And it's all roots music. In fact, I like the description on your website of the label. It says, Hi-Style focuses on American roots music that feeds the soul.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, Hi-Style Records, that's right."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 58, "text": "So, Jimmy, one of the things you do is play slap bass. And I want you to demonstrate how that sounds for us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 59, "text": "So it's turning the bass into a bass and a percussion instrument at the same time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Here, I'll give you two of my favorites. This is going to be a combination between - how about Willie Dixon and Bill Black? (Playing bass)."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 60, "text": "Yeah, it's a great show", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Rawhide\" again."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 61, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Rawhide\" again."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 62, "text": "So when you're playing slap bass, where are you slapping? What do you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But, you know - but, yeah, and along with JD, listening to early punk rock music, it kind of - when the whole rockabilly thing kind of surfaced, it almost gave us the OK to get back in - you know, jus"}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 63, "text": "Great. And, you know, some of the early rock 'n' rollers used their bass as part of the choreography. They put it under their legs or spin it around. Have you done that kind of stuff onstage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, well, I'm slapping over the fingerboard towards the bottom. And I'm playing gut strings right here too, and they tend to sound a little better than all-steel strings. But I'm - here, this is a sin"}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 64, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I used to do it all."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 65, "text": "Why did you stop?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I used to do it all. Yeah, I used to surf it, stand on it, lay on it. You know, it was just ridiculous. It was a lot of fun. But, you know, that was in my - maybe my 20s - teens. It started in my teen"}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 66, "text": "It's probably not the best thing for the bass either, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because everybody else started doing it, and I think people expected me to do it - you know, are you going to stand on the bass again? And I just wanted to play better. You know, at a certain point, I"}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 67, "text": "So you grew up in Chicago.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I still have that bass that I bought back in 19 - oh, yeah, it was in 1982 I think I purchased my first bass in downtown Chicago."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 68, "text": "So you were a city boy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I did."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 69, "text": "How did you meet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I did not live around any cows like JD here."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 70, "text": "Seriously?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Myspace."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 71, "text": "Myspace served it's function.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I was trying to get a gig in Chicago, and I was a fan of his bands. And I messaged him on Myspace."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 72, "text": "Well, I'm glad you got together. This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, we're doing music in our studio today. And my guests are JD McPherson, who is a songwriter, singer and guitarist, and members of his band. And their new album is an album of original Christmas songs written by JD. The album is called \"Socks.\" But we're also hearing them play some music that isn't Christmas music. And that is the case - not Christmas music - with the next song I'm going to ask you to do, which is called \"Jubilee.\" And performing in our studio on this song will be JD on guitar and vocals and Jimmy Sutton on bass. Doug Corcoran is going to be playing baritone guitar. And Ray Jacildo is going to be on chimes. And before we hear it, JD, introduce the song for us. Tell us about the inspiration for this song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I listened to his music. And there was something going on there, so - and here we are."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 73, "text": "But in this song, Jubilee is a person. It's a woman.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Jubilee\" - we were making the last record, and I had this kind of chord progression started. And I worked on this one with Ray, actually. And the lyrics were written, I think, almost overnight. I wro"}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 74, "text": "OK, all right. Can you play it for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 75, "text": "So that was just an excerpt of the song \"Jubilee.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "From Western clothes to a song about a girl, here we go. (Singing) I hang around where the music is playing. I see the joyful look on every face. I try to listen to the words they're singing, but noth"}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 76, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that was the abbreviated version..."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 77, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is JD McPherson and three members of his band - bass player Jimmy Sutton, Doug Corcoran, who plays baritone guitar and also sings, and Ray Jacildo, who is the keyboard player. And he's playing chimes for us today in addition to singing backup vocals. Jason Smay, the drummer of the band, is not with us today because in our studio, the drums are just going to be too loud, and he's the drummer. So thanks anyways, Jason. You sound great on the record. So we talked a little bit about growing up on a cattle ranch. You taught school before you were a professional musician. You taught eighth grade. You were fired from eighth grade teaching, so was I.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Because it's a very long song. For us, five minutes is very, very long."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 78, "text": "You lasted four years. I lasted six weeks, so...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Really?"}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 79, "text": "I have the edge over you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, wow."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 80, "text": "Everything wrong. I couldn't...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I want to know what you did."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 81, "text": "...Keep the kids in the classroom, let alone teach them anything.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did that, too."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 82, "text": "But why were you fired?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did that, too."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 83, "text": "In what sense?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, really, the - you know, the - there's actually a little bit of a legend perpetuated by a big rock magazine that I was fired for giving a 15-year-old boy a Bad Brains CD. That's true. I did give "}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 84, "text": "Is administrivia your word?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just - I'm not good at wallowing in the mire of administrivia. I'm not good at office politics. I'm not good at relating to other adults. In fact, I'm much - I'm, actually, much better with the kids"}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 85, "text": "Oh, I haven't. I like it. I like it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I've heard that word before."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 86, "text": "You also - like, one of your - your first album, in fact, was called \"Signs & Semiotics\" (ph).", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 87, "text": "Signs...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Close..."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 88, "text": "Signs and signifiers are part of the definition of semiotics, which is using signs and signifiers and symbols to understand how meaning is derived from the text. And the semioticists", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...\"Signs & Signifiers.\""}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 89, "text": "who invented - came up with a very arcane language to deconstruct different art forms. Why did you study that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...\"Signs & Signifiers.\""}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 90, "text": "So why did you want to name an album \"Signs & Signifiers\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 91, "text": "Did you think it sounded vaguely biblical, like the signs and signifiers of hell? If you don't -", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I always liked the - I always liked language. And I loved that terminology that you'd see pop up once in a while. I always thought it sounded like kind of a '20s blues title sound like something"}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 92, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I always liked the - I always liked language. And I loved that terminology that you'd see pop up once in a while. I always thought it sounded like kind of a '20s blues title sound like something"}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 93, "text": "Oh, I was thinking a lot of the blues people, I mean, sang about hell...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, maybe a little of that, too. Both my parents are preachers, too, so maybe there's of little that in there, too."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 94, "text": "...And damnation. So your mother was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 95, "text": "...Was a preacher.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mother..."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 96, "text": "Still is - what church?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Still is, yeah."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 97, "text": "Why were they going to shut it down?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Word of Life Church in Bache, Okla. She's been a minister for - well, she's in her 80s now. She's been doing it a long time. That was a big deal because where we lived, that wasn't really - people"}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 98, "text": "And they don't shut things down for aesthetic reasons. They set it down for others.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But..."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 99, "text": "So was your family church the church where your mother preached?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "McAlester police, they don't have - you know, there's not a lot going on. So when kids with skateboards show up and distortion boxes and - singing songs by people from England, I don't know. They want"}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 100, "text": "So you grew up with your mother preaching.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 101, "text": "What did she preach? Like what were - what are some memorable things from her sermons?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 102, "text": "Oh, so you played in your mother's church.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was a non-denominational service. It was really heavy on music. There was a lot of music. I started off drums there, and my brother played guitar."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 103, "text": "What music did you play?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 104, "text": "It sounds like it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it wasn't, like, hymns. It wasn't - they were kind of songs written by people, like non-published material. It was an interesting place. Like, there was a lot of different kind of - like, I "}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 105, "text": "Sing a few bars of one of the songs that you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 106, "text": "...Did in church.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, jeez (ph)."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 107, "text": "That's really nice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I remember my dad used to sing this song called \"Cover Me\" that I really like. And this is going to be - this is, I mean, literally never - (singing, playing guitar) cover me. Cover me. Extend the bor"}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 108, "text": "So did Christmas songs actually have special meaning for you because your mother was a preacher?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 109, "text": "That's nice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "to the city for me. So when I did go and it was Christmastime, it really felt, I think, like, maybe what they're trying to make you feel as opposed to living in a city and it's just everywhere all the"}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 110, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 111, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I like that."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 112, "text": "So when you were fired after four years from teaching, was that like a relief for you? Did it open up the door to becoming a musician...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I like not being cynical about things."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 113, "text": "...A full-time musician?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I..."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 114, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "? You - every job I ever had, I tried to somehow inject music in there somewhere. I tried to figure out a way to make it about what I really wanted to do. And so when the fourth-graders were learning "}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 115, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Name the four Romanes, go. You get a piece of candy..."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 116, "text": "So I want to close with another - that is, I want you to close with another Christmas song. There's a song I love from the new album - your new album \"Socks\" that I'd like you to perform for us. And it's called \"What's That Sound?\" And I think everyone in the band is going to chime in on that one.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...If you get them in - you know what I mean? So it was always kind of - tiger can't change his stripes. And I'm a rock \u2019n\u2019 roll tiger, man."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 117, "text": "So this is JD McPherson and his band performing in our studio, and the song is \"What's That Sound?\" And it's also on their new Christmas album which is called \"Socks.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, this one, I think, is probably getting down to the root of that anti-cynicism sentiment we were just speaking about. This is - this one's about all of those nice things that you can experi"}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 118, "text": "Oh, that was great. Thank you so much for performing for us in our studio. It's just been wonderful. I wish you all merry Christmas, a really happy and healthy 2019 and great musical things, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) What's that sound at the door I hear? I heard that same merry sound last year. Neighbors are caroling around the town, trying to spread a little bit of joy around. I hear that sound. It make"}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 119, "text": "Thank you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 120, "text": "...For doing this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for doing this."}
{"id": "679128773", "date": "2018-12-25", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 121, "text": "Our thanks to JD McPherson and his band. Their new Christmas album is called \"Socks.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, from we continue our Holiday Week series featuring some favorite interviews of the year. We'll hear my interview with Michael Pollan about his latest book \"How To Change Your Mind.\" It's about the history of psychedelic drugs and current experiments with them in therapeutic settings to treat depression, addiction and fear of death. The book also recounts his own personal experiences with LSD and psilocybin. I hope you'll join us. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Today's concert was produced by Amy Salit and was recorded by Joyce Lieberman with help from Al Banks (ph). Our technical director is Audrey Bentham. Roberta Shorrock directs our show. I'm Terry Gross. All of us at FRESH AIR wish you a merry Christmas.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Our pleasure."}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today we're continuing our end of the year series featuring some of our most popular interviews of 2018. This next interview with Michael Pollan was one of the five most popular interviews on our website. It's about how psychedelic drugs are having a surprising renaissance, being used experimentally in therapeutic settings to treat depression, addiction and the existential fear of death in people with cancer. Our interview was recorded last May after the publication of Pollan's latest book \"How To Change Your Mind: What The New Science Of Psychedelics Teaches Us About Consciousness, Dying, Addiction, Depression, And Transcendence.\" As part of his research, Pollan experimented with LSD and psilocybin with the help of guides who created the setting and prepared him for the experience. And yes, this is the same Michael Pollan who's best known for his books about food and is the author of the best-sellers \"The Omnivore's Dilemma\" and \"The Botany Of Desire.\" He's a professor at the University of California, Berkeley School of Journalism.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 1, "text": "Michael Pollan, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Why did you want to write a book about hallucinogenics?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 2, "text": "I'll say (laughing).", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Good question (laughing). It is something of a departure for me. I've been writing a lot about food and agriculture."}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 3, "text": "So looking at how psychedelics are being used in research today, let's start with depression. How are psychedelics being used to try to treat depression? And we should preface this by saying there's a lot of frustration now about antidepressants.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah (laughing). But, you know, it is a departure, but it's also all of a piece. I mean, my interest in food and agriculture really grew out of my interest in nature and how we engage with the natural"}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 4, "text": "Does the therapist talk with you during this experience?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, and that's part of the story. I didn't realize till I started working on this book how broken mental health care and treatment is in this country and that we really haven't had a big innovation "}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 5, "text": "Is one of the premises of this kind of treatment for depression that when you're depressed, you get caught up in these cycles of thought and these, like, tape loops of telling yourself negative things and seeing the world in negative ways and that through the use of a psychedelic that you're going to almost be forced to perceive things differently, thus opening up the door into a new way of thinking?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. The therapist says very little. It's a very noninterventionist kind of thing because the theory is that you'll go where you need to go. You'll have the kind of trip you need. So for example, if "}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 6, "text": "So what is the state now of the psychological therapeutic use of psychedelics?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly right. The drugs foster new perspectives on old problems. You know, one of the things our mind does is tell stories about ourselves. And if you're depressed, you're being told a story, perhaps"}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 7, "text": "You know, how far has it gotten...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So..."}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 8, "text": "...How confident...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 9, "text": "...Are the researchers that they're actually using it...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 10, "text": "...Successfully in a way that other people could reproduce the same results?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's something here."}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 11, "text": "One of the things I find really interesting about that is that you could assume that you - if you had cancer and you were worried about your health - that if you took a psychedelic drug, that the negative things would come to the surface. And you would totally freak out and have a really bad trip. But apparently...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So there have been - there's a couple research groups around the country. The most prominent are at Johns Hopkins and NYU. Imperial College in London is doing really good work, and so is UCLA - "}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 12, "text": "...That's not been happening. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's exactly what I thought."}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 13, "text": "That's pretty amazing", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, people have incredibly positive trips. They have scary episodes. I mean, make no mistake. You know, we have this idea of, there's a bad trip and there's a good trip. It's usually more complicated "}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 14, "text": ". So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, people have incredibly positive trips. They have scary episodes. I mean, make no mistake. You know, we have this idea of, there's a bad trip and there's a good trip. It's usually more complicated "}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 15, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Michael Pollan. You probably know him from his books about food and plants. His new book is called \"How To Change Your Mind: What The New Science Of Psychedelics Teaches Us About Consciousness, Dying, Addiction, Depression, And Transcendence.\" Back after this break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is pretty amazing. And the testimony of so many of these patients I found so implausible that, in fact, I wanted to see for myself what was going on."}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Michael Pollan, who's the author of books like \"The Omnivore's Dilemma\" and \"The Botany Of Desire\" - books about food, books about plants. His new book is about psychedelics - their history, their current use in research and also his own experiments with psychedelics. The book is called \"How To Change Your Mind: What The New Science Of Psychedelics Teaches Us About Consciousness, Dying, Addiction, Depression, And Transcendence.\" So we were talking about the use of psychedelics in treating depression and anxiety. There are also research projects now using psychedelics with people who have terminal cancer. And they're in - they're facing their death, and they're very anxious about it. So how are psychedelics being used in that setting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is pretty amazing. And the testimony of so many of these patients I found so implausible that, in fact, I wanted to see for myself what was going on."}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 17, "text": "What you described that this person experienced on the hallucinogenic sounds like a lot of near-death experiences that other people have described where you see that death isn't going to be terrible, that there's some kind of peaceful beyond that you'll be going to but you still have work to do in this world so that you come back from that near-death experience. And I'm not speaking to the validity of those experiences one way or another. I'm just kind of saying this is what I've read. This is what I've heard that some people have reported. And it's very similar to what you've just said.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So far, the most exciting trial, I think, has been giving it to people with life-changing diagnoses. They're not all terminal, but many of them are. And I spent a lot of time telling the story of a ma"}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 18, "text": "My guest is Michael Pollan. He's best known for his writing about food. His new book about psychedelic drugs is called \"How To Change Your Mind.\" After a break, we'll talk about how psychedelics are being used experimentally in the treatment of addiction. And we'll hear about Pollan's own experiences with psychedelics. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And we don't know what to do with that. There's no way to prove this, obviously. And it was a question that really troubled me as an old-fashioned, materialist, skeptical journalist. It's like, "}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Michael Pollan, whose new book is called \"How To Change Your Mind: What The New Science Of Psychedelics Teaches Us About Consciousness, Dying, Addiction And Transcendence.\" The subject is a departure for Pollan, who's best known for his books about food, including the bestseller \"The Omnivore's Dilemma.\" When we left off, we were talking about how psychedelic drugs are being used experimentally in therapeutic settings to help with depression and anxiety and to break out of patterns of self-destructive thinking or behavior. So is that how it's being used in addiction therapy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And we don't know what to do with that. There's no way to prove this, obviously. And it was a question that really troubled me as an old-fashioned, materialist, skeptical journalist. It's like, "}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 20, "text": "So as part of the research for your book, \"How To Change Your Mind,\" about psychedelics, you wanted to try them yourself. You were slightly too young for the counterculture era, so you didn't take them in the '60s or '70s. And you wanted to experience them now. You tried to get into some of the studies that are being done, but they don't want, quote, \"healthy normals\" like you", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, it's being used in somewhat similar ways in that it's about dope-slapping you out of those stories you tell yourself, like, I can't get through this interview without a cigarette, or, I "}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, it's being used in somewhat similar ways in that it's about dope-slapping you out of those stories you tell yourself, like, I can't get through this interview without a cigarette, or, I "}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 22, "text": "So you had to go, you know, to the underground. And the first thing that you wanted to do was find a guide because, as they say, set and setting is very important. You have to have a guide and be in good hands and be in a setting where you're not going to freak out", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I flatter myself in thinking..."}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 23, "text": "you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I flatter myself in thinking..."}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 24, "text": "You only heard the bad stories. You didn't hear the good stories.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And you trust the person, yes. I mean, the trust is so important. So I was surprised to learn that there is a thriving underground of psychedelic guides in this country. I don't know how big it is. It"}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 25, "text": "That's very interesting you call them medicines.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I only heard - that's true. It had to do with this moment in time that I came of age. I was hearing, you know, that it scrambled your chromosomes or it made you stare at the sun till you went blind - "}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 26, "text": "Well, let me stop you there because, I mean...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Experience. Well, you know, that's the term that people use underground. I think the word drug has so many - you know, so much moral coloration to it that they prefer the word medicine. And that's "}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 27, "text": "It is true if you are - I think it's true that if you are prone to psychosis that taking a hallucinogenic can put you over the edge. So, I mean, there are bad things to happen. And there...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 28, "text": "...Is reason to use caution, and there is reason to take it seriously before you decide...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 29, "text": "...To take a hallucinogenic - yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I want to emphasize that."}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 30, "text": "Let's take another break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Michael Pollan. You probably know him from his books about food and plants, but his new book is about the history and the current use of psychedelics. The book is called \"How To Change Your Mind: What The New Science Of Psychedelics Teaches Us About Consciousness, Dying, Addiction, Depression, And Transcendence.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm very happy you brought that up. I mean, the fact is, you know, being kind of a scaredy (ph) cat about the whole thing, I looked very carefully into the risk profile of these substances. And I was "}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 31, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Michael Pollan, who's the author of books like \"The Omnivore's Dilemma\" and \"The Botany Of Desire.\" His new book is about psychedelics - their history, their current use in research and his own experiments with psychedelics. And the book is called \"How To Change Your Mind: What The New Science Of Psychedelics Teaches Us About Consciousness, Dying, Addiction, Depression, and Transcendence.\" Tell us about the most meaningful psilocybin - was it psilocybin...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm very happy you brought that up. I mean, the fact is, you know, being kind of a scaredy (ph) cat about the whole thing, I looked very carefully into the risk profile of these substances. And I was "}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 32, "text": "...That you took? Just tell us first what advice you got beforehand.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, psilocybin. Yeah."}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 33, "text": "Was it electronic music you were listening to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I worked with a guide that I call Mary in the book who was a incredibly empathetic, compassionate therapist. She was roughly my age. And she prepared me very carefully. I had to fill out lots of"}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 34, "text": "So far, this is not sounding like a great trip.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's interesting. I thought it was electronic music. It turned out not to be, but it sounded like electronica. And it put me in this computer space. The other reason, though, I entered a compute"}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 35, "text": "How'd it turn? Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's interesting. I thought it was electronic music. It turned out not to be, but it sounded like electronica. And it put me in this computer space. The other reason, though, I entered a compute"}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 36, "text": "I think...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I wasn't - it turned about now. After the booster shot, I found myself in this place where I could no longer control my perceptions at all. And I felt my sense of self scattered to the wind, alm"}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 37, "text": "That's one of the problems, though. I think when you've had an experience like that and try to explain it, it sounds a little loopy...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 38, "text": "...To anyone who hasn't experienced something similar.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 39, "text": "And that's, I think, part of the problem that people run into in trying to explain the transcendence of the experience that they had.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 40, "text": "(Laughing).", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, William James talked about this problem. He said the mystical experience is ineffable, yet we try very hard to eff it."}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 41, "text": "Well, you've described yourself as somebody who didn't think of yourself as having a mystical bent. What did you describe yourself - as a something materialist?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I did in this book. I mean, you know, the part of the book I most dreaded writing was the trips. How can you possibly describe these without sounding like an idiot or..."}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 42, "text": "Philosophical materialist, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Philosophical materialist. Yeah, I was..."}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 43, "text": "So how long as this lasted? I mean, you've had - you had this - these experiences - I don't know when your last trip was. But do you still feel transformed in some way by it or does that seem more like a memory of how something once was different but no longer is for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. This took me to a very uncomfortable place in some ways. And it challenged a lot of those beliefs. On the..."}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 44, "text": "You did?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, I mean, you do refer back to the memories. They're useful. They're kind of in your archive. They're very vivid. And you can refer back to certain images or experiences and use them that wa"}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 45, "text": "Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I did."}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 46, "text": "I had the same experience with my father - not with (laughing)...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, that was kind of the background to the whole book, I realized in retrospect. I was very interested in having a conversation about death that I couldn't really have with my father. He didn't "}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 47, "text": "I didn't turn to hallucinogenics as a result. But no, I felt with both of my parents that it was something they didn't really want to talk about.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 48, "text": "By better, you mean more meaningful, more deeply felt?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And maybe that's generational. It's obviously not easy to talk about. But here, with these people who'd gone through this experience - and of course, these are people who sought this experience, so th"}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 49, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Michael Pollan. And you probably know him from his books about food, but his new book is about the history and the current use of psychedelics. The book is called \"How To Change Your Mind: What The New Science Of Psychedelics Teaches Us About Consciousness, Dying, Addiction, Depression, And Transcendence.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "More meaningful, yes, and more emotionally available, less defensive. And I think that's the big gift of these experiences when they go well, which is that, you know, the defenses that we have - and t"}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 50, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Michael Pollan. You probably know him from his books about food, like \"The Omnivore's Dilemma,\" and \"The Botany Of Desire,\" which is also about how plants can influence the mind. And his new book takes that a step further. It's a history of psychedelic drugs, including how they're being used today in research settings. And the book is called, \"How To Change Your Mind: What The New Science Of Psychedelics Teaches Us About Consciousness, Dying, Addiction, Depression, And Transcendence.\" So I want to ask you how all of this has affected your food life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "More meaningful, yes, and more emotionally available, less defensive. And I think that's the big gift of these experiences when they go well, which is that, you know, the defenses that we have - and t"}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 51, "text": "Seriously, 'cause you've written about eating plants. You've written about eating animals. Are you eating any differently than you were before using psychedelics? - because you also talk about feeling that the plants in your garden have a spirit.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 52, "text": "I don't know how that translates to eating them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 53, "text": "Have you given up on animals?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I mean, you have to eat plants, you know? You can give up on animals. And I've never thought plants..."}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 54, "text": "OK. So one of the phrases you're famous for - and this is from \"The Omnivore's Dilemma\" - is, eat food, not much, mostly plants.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Almost. I'm a kind of a very reluctant carnivore. I eat very limited kind of meat from farmers that I know, and, you know, pastured eggs and all that kind of stuff. I mean, I'm very careful about what"}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 55, "text": "Not too much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not too much."}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 56, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mostly plants."}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 57, "text": "So that's become pretty famous. Is it still as meaningful to you? And what's it been like for you to see that phrase have a life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 58, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it is still meaningful. There's nothing I would change. I think it still is a good guidance for eating. It's interesting to see it enter the culture. I mean, you know, I've seen online peopl"}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 59, "text": "So do you support, like, the legalization of psychedelics?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I don't want to be associated with that line. But it's remarkable when you create a meme that enters the culture that way. You know, I hope I can come up with something just as good because I'm no"}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 60, "text": "So you know the Bach \"Cello Suite\" that you listened to on one of your psilocybin trips and that so profoundly moved you, do you listen back to that now? And what does it do for you when you listen to it without the psilocybin?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, here's what I support. I support doing this research and seeing it through to the end and supporting it so that we can first confirm that these are as valuable a therapeutic tool as they appear "}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 61, "text": "So Michael Pollan, thank you for your book. Thank you for your history of the research into psychedelics and for your own", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's a very meaningful piece to me now. I listen to it a lot, actually, often when I'm writing. And I listened to it when I was writing the book. One of the things that psychedelics seems to do "}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 62, "text": "experiments into psychedelics. It's all really fascinating. I wish we had time to talk more.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's a very meaningful piece to me now. I listen to it a lot, actually, often when I'm writing. And I listened to it when I was writing the book. One of the things that psychedelics seems to do "}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 63, "text": "That's right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. We didn't get to talk about your experiences."}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 64, "text": "We did not bring me into this conversation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. We didn't get to talk about your experiences."}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 65, "text": "My thoughts exactly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As it should be. Thank you very much."}
{"id": "680162831", "date": "2018-12-26", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 66, "text": "My interview with Michael Pollan was recorded last May after the publication of his book \"How To Change Your Mind.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll continue our holiday week series of favorite interviews of the year with Bo Burnham, who wrote and directed the film Eighth Grade about a girl with social anxiety who makes YouTube videos about how to be confident and make friends. Burnham became a YouTube sensation when he was a teenager and YouTube was new. I hope you'll join us. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our engineer today is Adam Adam Staniszewski. Our associate producer for digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Therese Madden directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross. We'll close with Yo-Yo Ma performing Bach's \"Cello Suite In D Minor,\" the piece Michael Pollan said he listened to during one of his trips.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As it should be. Thank you very much."}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. This week, we're featuring favorite interviews of the year as chosen by listeners and our producers. Today's interview is with Bo Burnham, who wrote and directed \"Eighth Grade,\" his first feature film. It's, in part, about the generation gap created by social media. The digital gap used to be between those people who grew up before computers and smartphones and those who were digital natives. Now, there's a gap between those who grew up with Facebook and those who grew up with Snapchat and Instagram. Burnham became one of the first YouTube stars when he was in high school after he performed some of his own satirical songs, put them on YouTube for his family to see, and they went viral. After high school, he had his own MTV series which satirized the compulsion to record and upload every aspect of your life, hoping it will make you famous. He's had two Netflix comedy specials, and he directed the Chris Rock comedy special released earlier this year. All that, and Burnham is still in his 20s. The main character in his new movie, \"Eighth Grade,\" is Kayla, a girl who's on the verge of graduating from middle school. She's incredibly shy and socially awkward but has her own YouTube blog in which she gives advice as if she's confident and experienced enough to know how to help girls with the same problems she has, the kinds of problems that give her panic attacks. She has a few followers, at best. Here's a scene from early in the film when Kayla is recording one of her videos.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 1, "text": "Bo Burnham, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And, yeah, thank you for watching - Gucci."}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 2, "text": "Thanks for saying that. I love your film, by the way. I just think it's great. You were in high school when you started posting songs on YouTube.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me, Terry. It's an honor."}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 3, "text": "Yeah. So your songs on YouTube found a huge audience. You're a guy. So why did you want to make this movie from the point of view of an eighth-grade girl? I mean, you've been through a big YouTube experience much bigger than your character has. Why make it from an eighth-grade girl's point of view?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, junior in high school, yeah."}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 4, "text": "So you watched a lot of teen vlogs. What are some of the patterns that you saw? What are some of the things that really stuck out to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I really set out to just make a story about how I was feeling at the time that I was writing it, which was nervous, and sort of wanting to talk about the Internet and how it felt to sort of "}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 5, "text": "Do you think a lot of the teen vlogs that you saw were teenagers presenting false versions of themselves, covering up their real insecurities and pretending to know more and have experienced way more than they actually have?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there's some incredible, like, actual, literal patterns. Like, they all actually open their videos by saying, hey, guys, so today, I'm going to talk to you about - and then they go onto the topi"}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 6, "text": "As you pointed out, you were never a 13-year-old girl. So I want to compare some of her anxieties with the ones you had as a boy of her age. She has a panic attack going to a popular girl's pool party, and the panic happens in the bathroom after she's changed into her bathing suit and is preparing to walk outside in it and is incredibly self-conscious about her body. So were you worried about appearing in a bathing suit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think so, but I wouldn't necessarily say - I mean, I guess it is false, but I don't know. I wouldn't - I don't mean negative false. Sometimes I think the way that we wish we were is almost, like, a "}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 7, "text": "What do you think the source of your anxiety was?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I mean, I wasn't psyched about it. Like, I was sort of a late bloomer and, you know, didn't have hair under my armpits, so I would swim with my shirt on. But really, like, as an eighth-grade boy, "}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 8, "text": "When you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know - maybe, you know, my sister carrying me around, telling me I was the most special little boy on the planet and then going out, needing that validation from everybody in the world. I don'"}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 9, "text": "When you were 13 and you had friends who were girls, did you understand anxieties from a girl's point of view? For example, something I think you handle really well in the film is how a 13-year-old girl might deal with it if a boy, you know, just a little bit older than her tries to come on to her and to push her sexually to a place that she's not ready for. It's so uncomfortable and awkward and embarrassing for a young, inexperienced girl to say no.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Should I talk to somebody about this?"}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 10, "text": "Your main character has, you know, social anxiety. She doesn't really have close friends. She's very uncomfortable around even kids her own age. What are some of your impressions of how social media is helping and hurting young people with social anxiety?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, honestly, I don't think I knew that perspective when I was that age. And I think - I mean, I didn't do anything equivalent to what that boy does in that scene, but, you know, part of t"}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I resist the urge to want to riff too much on this stuff 'cause I often feel like the issue in regards to our conversation about social media and technology is we have so much commentary and"}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 12, "text": "You had a Netflix special a couple of years ago. And I want to play an excerpt of that because I thought you spoke really well about the need for an - like, the need some people have to record everything they do and to have an audience and to be their own audience. So this is from Bo Burnham's 2016 Netflix special \"Make Happy.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...But really just take emotional inventory of what's going on and sort of just present it because the truth is it isn't just bad. If it was just bad, I'd just tell all the kids to throw their phone i"}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 13, "text": "Bo Burnham, do you still stand by everything you said in that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They say it's like the me generation. It's not. It's not. The arrogance is taught, or it was cultivated. It's self-conscious. That's what it is. It's that - it's conscious of self. What the - social m"}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 14, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Bo Burnham, and he wrote and directed the new movie \"Eighth Grade.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". There was a sort of element of definitely dramatizing the feelings to express them. But yeah, I think so. I mean, what that really sort of expresses is the kind of major revelation I had in my caree"}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Bo Burnham. He's a comic. He's a satirical songwriter. And now he's written and directed his first feature film. It's called \"Eighth Grade.\" And the main character is an eighth-grade girl on the verge of graduating middle school with a lot of social anxiety but who has a vlog and posts a lot of videos in which she gives advice to other girls", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". There was a sort of element of definitely dramatizing the feelings to express them. But yeah, I think so. I mean, what that really sort of expresses is the kind of major revelation I had in my caree"}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 16, "text": "as if she is more confident than she really is and knows more than she really does. So there's a scene where Kayla, your main character, walks into a pool party. And, you know, she's really embarrassed. She's had this panic attack in the bathroom after changing into her bathing suit 'cause she doesn't want to be seen in it. And the pool party - it's, you know, being thrown by the popular girl whose mother insisted that Kayla be invited. The girl didn't really want to invite her. And she walks into the pool party which is already underway, and it's kind of like trying to get onto the on-ramp on a highway where cars are whizzing by because there's, like, so much action going on. Like, one guy's walking - one kid's walking around with a big squirt gun, squirting at everybody. Kids are, like, you know, dancing on the side of the pool. Kids inside are kind of splashing around and jumping into the pool. And it's like, where do you enter the scene? Where do you fit yourself in? And I just - I felt for her so much", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". There was a sort of element of definitely dramatizing the feelings to express them. But yeah, I think so. I mean, what that really sort of expresses is the kind of major revelation I had in my caree"}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 17, "text": "at that moment. And can you give us some insights into directing that scene, into the kind of the highway that she's walking, you know - that she's walking into?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". There was a sort of element of definitely dramatizing the feelings to express them. But yeah, I think so. I mean, what that really sort of expresses is the kind of major revelation I had in my caree"}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 18, "text": "Oh, interesting point. You know, you're so skeptical of fame even though you're getting more and more of it. But - so you're working with young actors like your lead, Elsie Fisher. And she's so good in this movie. And it's going to really make her famous or kind of famous. I don't know what level exactly she'll be at. But what was your approach to help making the young people in this movie take a big step forward in their acting careers and step closer to fame while also trying to caution them about the downside of achieving it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, sort of a big impulse with a lot of the movie and the situations in the movie, that one especially, is trying to approach experiences of that time as she approaches them, which is new and for th"}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 19, "text": "My guest is Bo Burnham. He wrote and directed the new film \"Eighth Grade.\" After a break, we'll talk about how he became an early YouTube star when he was in his teens and how that altered his life. And our jazz critic, Kevin Whitehead, will remember several of the musicians who died this year. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I feel like I have more - honestly, honestly, I feel like I have more to learn from Elsie about that stuff than I have to teach her. I mean, Elsie's biggest stress right now is that everyone"}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. This week, we're featuring some favorite interviews of the year as chosen by our producers and by listeners. Let's get back to my interview with comic and satirical songwriter Bo Burnham, who wrote and directed \"Eighth Grade,\" which was released over the summer. It's his first feature film. It's about a girl about to graduate from middle school. She's suffering from social anxiety, but she makes YouTubes, recorded in her bedroom, giving advice to other teens about how to be confident and be yourself, things she's incapable of doing. Her videos have very few followers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I feel like I have more - honestly, honestly, I feel like I have more to learn from Elsie about that stuff than I have to teach her. I mean, Elsie's biggest stress right now is that everyone"}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 21, "text": "You were an early YouTube star. You started making videos of you singing your original satirical songs in, I think, your bedroom. What was the state of YouTube when you started? And how old did you say you were, 15?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I feel like I have more - honestly, honestly, I feel like I have more to learn from Elsie about that stuff than I have to teach her. I mean, Elsie's biggest stress right now is that everyone"}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 22, "text": "So when you started posting videos of your songs for your family, how did they end up going viral?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was 16, yeah. It was 2006. It was just when it started. And I had written some little silly songs and wanted to show them to my brother who was at college. And someone said, you should post it on Yo"}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 23, "text": "Why don't we hear what I think is the first song that you posted, which is...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were posted on this site break.com, and it got like 250,000 views in a day. It just sort of happened. It was a website that sort of featured popular videos, and they just snagged it. And it kind "}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 24, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, boy."}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 25, "text": "which is...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, boy."}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 26, "text": "\"My Whole Family\" - is that the first one?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 27, "text": "So it's called \"My Whole Family\" or \"My Whole Family Thinks I'm Gay,\" and you posted this in 2006. But your micing (ph) technique wasn't great", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, sure."}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 28, "text": ". So your piano...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, sure."}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 29, "text": "OK. We'll go with the mic technique. So the piano is, like, drowning out your voice. And I'm afraid our listeners won't be able to hear the lyrics. So instead of going with the original...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 30, "text": "Wait. Wait. No, no. Instead...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank God."}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 31, "text": "It's going to be bad again. Instead of going with the original YouTube video, we're going to go with the 2008 recording that you made because it's just clearer. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no. Oh, Lord."}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 32, "text": "And the lyrics are funny, and I think our audience should be able to hear them. So this is my guest Bo Burnham.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank God."}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 33, "text": "Did people who you know think you were gay at the time...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Truly, it's like - you know, I - you know, for a 16-year-old kid in 2006, it's not bad. But the cultural standards of what is appropriate comedy and also the inner standards of my own mind have change"}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 34, "text": "...'Cause you were a theater kid?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure. Yeah. And, you know, it was..."}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 35, "text": "And what was your reaction? Like, how did you know people thought you were gay, and what was your reaction to it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Die-hard theater in an all-boys Catholic school. Yeah."}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 36, "text": "Did people misinterpret it and think, like, that guy's homophobic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was bad. Oh, boy."}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 37, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Bo Burnham. He wrote and directed his first feature film, and it's called \"Eighth Grade.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "online. So at a certain point, we're going to have to call amnesty and just, you know, get on with it."}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 38, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us my, guest is Bo Burnham. He wrote and directed the new movie \"Eighth Grade,\" which is about an eighth-grade girl on the verge of graduating middle school who's very self-conscious and a lot of social anxiety. She also has a vlog in which she gives advice to other kids her age about how to have confidence and how to make friends and things that she's very uncomfortable doing herself. Bo Burnham became a YouTube star when he was in his mid-teens writing and performing satirical songs. He's also a stand-up comic. When you started posting videos on YouTube and they started going viral, what was your parents' reaction? And were they concerned about the impact it could have on you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "online. So at a certain point, we're going to have to call amnesty and just, you know, get on with it."}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 39, "text": "They did jeopardize that in the sense that you got accepted to NYU's Tisch School of the arts instead of going", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I had a decent amount of trust from my parents, but they were scared and freaked out, my mother probably especially just 'cause it was such a new, strange thing. And I was sort of a very"}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 40, "text": "- you went on the road and became a comic.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I had a decent amount of trust from my parents, but they were scared and freaked out, my mother probably especially just 'cause it was such a new, strange thing. And I was sort of a very"}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 41, "text": "They probably recognized you actually had a lot of talent.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah, but they were pretty supportive, though. It was shocking at first. But once it became something that I sort of cared about, I think they cared about it, too."}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 42, "text": "You were a theater kid in high school. And you were in something called competitive theater, where different schools...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And they knew I loved theater. And they saw that it was - I think I was engaged in it in a way that was similar to the way I was engaged in theater and that I really cared about it. You know, th"}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 43, "text": "...Get together and compete for, I guess - what? - the best performances, best direction.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And they knew I loved theater. And they saw that it was - I think I was engaged in it in a way that was similar to the way I was engaged in theater and that I really cared about it. You know, th"}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 44, "text": "Were there different categories?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 45, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. For Massachusetts - that's how you sell theater to your Massachusetts father. You call it competitive theater, and then maybe he'll show up."}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 46, "text": "It's not exactly sports, but it's competition. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah. We - yeah, it's..."}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 47, "text": "Did that help you in directing the young actors in your film?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", exactly. No, it's really, really wonderful. It's the Massachusetts High School Drama Guild. It's - a hundred schools compete, and there's three stages of competition. But, you know, they're all 40-m"}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 48, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Just to know that the greatest thing you can do for a kid is to empower them to have ownership over the thing they're working on. And that - at that age, you really are ready and hungry to throw"}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 49, "text": "So you're really tall. You're - what? - 6-foot-5 or something.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Ready to imagine and so ready to throw themselves into something. I was so pleased with the kids in the film. It was actually like the random adults that would be difficult. I'd ask the random adul"}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 50, "text": "Oh. What kind of physical...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Six-foot-six, unfortunately."}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 51, "text": "No, no, I'm thinking, like, if you're 6-foot-5, you can, like, slouch and try to cover up your head. You can really, like, own the space. Like, what type of tall person have you been? And has that changed over the years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Deformities."}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 52, "text": "Why were you self-conscious about being tall, leading to slouching?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It has changed. That's a great question. I have just recently in the last year tried to stand up straight because I always didn't. I always slouched. It's like a nightmare if I ever go to a theater to"}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 53, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just, like, too much - like, 6'6\" is too much. Like, 6'2\" - cool. You know, 6'6\" is, like, oh, boy. I get a lot of, do you play basketball, which is - the response is, do you play mini golf?"}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 54, "text": "Your mother was a nurse at the school that you went to. She was a nurse at St. John's Prep School. You got free tuition there. So you became a student there. You got the tuition through her job. Did it enable you to see a side of her that you otherwise wouldn't have?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "no, it's just, like, it's too much. Yeah, it's a lot."}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 55, "text": "So your mother became a hospice nurse. And, in fact, she's interviewed - she's followed in part of an episode of This American Life reported by Nancy Updike. And she's - you know, your mother in this episode is dealing with the questions coming from people who are dying. And she's dealing with the questions coming from people whose loved ones are dying. And I have to say, she seems to be handling all of that with such sensitivity. What impact did it have on you when she became so immersed in the process of dying and spending her days with people who are dying and with people who are losing their loved ones to death? You were probably graduated from high school by then.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I mean, like I felt like - she was a little antsy there. She loved being there - loved, loved being there. You know, she was a nurse practitioner and then went on to become a hospice nurse, so, yo"}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 56, "text": "How - what are some other ways it affected you to have your mother so immersed in the process of dying because of her work?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, basically right when I left, she left her job at my school and applied to become a hospice nurse. Yeah, it was - my mother has always been an incredibly emotionally deep person. So as significan"}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 57, "text": "I mean, because you have a lot of anxiety - and I'm wondering if that presence of death in your family's life, like, added to that anxiety at all.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know..."}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 58, "text": "Well, Bo Burnham, it's been great to talk with you. I love the movie. Thank you so much for coming on our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I mean, the way my mother describes death is relieving. She is the person you want around you when death is in the air. She says she's not scared of it. I believe her. You know, she sees it two to"}
{"id": "680356663", "date": "2018-12-27", "guest": "Elsie Fisher", "title": "Director Bo Burnham On Growing Up With Anxiety \u2014 And An Audience", "question_index": 59, "text": "My interview with Bo Burnham was recorded in July. Our series of favorite interviews of the year will continue through New Year's Day. Coming up, jazz critic Kevin Whitehead remembers several jazz musicians who died this year. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I appreciate it, Terry. Thank you for having me."}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 0, "text": "That's \"Sister\" from Tracey Thorn's new album, \"Record.\" Tracey Thorn, welcome to FRESH AIR. It's really a pleasure to have you on the show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Nobody ever loved (ph). Don't mess with me. Don't hurt my babies. I'll come for you. You'll find you've bitten off more than you can chew. You are the man, but I'm not your baby. I get so sc"}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 1, "text": "So what's the story behind the song we just heard?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hi, thank you."}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 2, "text": "And what does the line, I am my mother now, mean to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I wrote it after I went on the women's march in London, you know, the same day that those marches were happening around the world. And the one in London was huge. And I went off that day, you kn"}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 3, "text": "And you've become the mother. I mean, your children are grown now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's to do with that feeling of, you know, that bond, that sisterhood, between, you know, women who you are literally related to and other women who you just feel that sort of theoretical sist"}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 4, "text": "So in your memoir from 2007, \"Bedsit Disco Queen,\" it opens with a story where, like, you're with your husband and music partner in the band Everything But The Girl, and you get a call saying that U2 wants you to tour with them to open for them. And you don't immediately say yes or no. You think about it, and then at the end of the book, we find out that your answer to that is I think I want to stop now", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I am. So, you know, I've stepped into those shoes."}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 5, "text": ", and you just kind of stop performing then. And less than a year later, you give birth to twins, and you decide to become a full-time mother. Why did you make that choice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I am. So, you know, I've stepped into those shoes."}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 6, "text": "You know, you wrote that when you became a mother, you felt that you couldn't be the person you were on stage and the mother you were at home, that somehow those two sides of you seemed incompatible. What were those two different versions of you and, why did they seem incompatible?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Lots of reasons really. We tried touring for a little while, taking the girls with us, and that was very difficult, so I then decided to stop. But, honestly, beneath that answer, there's a truer answe"}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 7, "text": "So I want to play another track from your new album, \"Record.\" And this is the song \"Babies,\" and I think it's the first song I know that's about using birth control, and the fear of getting pregnant when you don't want to have a baby and then the urgency of having a baby when you do want to have one. How did you come up with that idea as the premise for a song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I see other women who are perfectly capable of doing that. So again I'd stress when I wrote this - I don't want to make this into a sort of general point, but I found it really tricky,"}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 8, "text": "OK, so let's hear \"Babies,\" and this is from Tracey Thorn's new album, \"Record.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was on a walk one day, and the opening lines of the song just appeared in my head with that tune - every morning of the month, you push a little tablet through the foil - cleverest of all inventions"}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 9, "text": "That's Tracey Thorn from her new album, \"Record.\" The song is called \"Babies.\" And she used to be half of the group Everything But The Girl with her now-husband, Ben. So, you know, part of this song is about the anxiety that can surround sex when you're a woman worried about getting pregnant and having to take hormones or putting foreign objects in your body to prevent pregnancy. I think men don't always comprehend what that means.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Every morning of the month, you push a little tablet through the foil - cleverest of all inventions, better than a condom or a coil - because I didn't want my babies until I wanted babies. A"}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Oh. Yeah, I didn't what it meant.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I think that's true. And obviously, for girls, it starts pretty young. One of the things I referenced in the song is, like, all my knowledge from Cathy and Claire, which, to American listeners, wo"}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Well, why don't we take a short break here? And then we'll talk some more and listen to some more of your music. If you're just joining us, my guest is Tracey Thorn. She has a new album called \"Record.\" It's a solo album. She used to be in the group from, like, 1982 to 2000 - in the group Everything But The Girl, which is basically her and her husband, Ben Watt. So we'll be right back after this break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I can just remember those teenage years of - long, long before the Internet - so having access to almost no information about my body and no real understanding of how this thing worked - so, you kn"}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is singer and songwriter and musician Tracey Thorn. From 1982 to 2000, she along with her now-husband, Ben Watt, were in the group Everything But The Girl. They were the group. And since then, she's been recording solo albums. Her new one is called \"Record.\" She's also a columnist for the British political magazine the New Statesman. So I want to play another song from \"Record,\" and this song is called \"Guitar.\" And it's a song about having a crush on a boy and thinking he was really cool because he played guitar, but he was cruel, you say in the song, and that you realize at some point that he was just the catalyst because he had your guitar. You had a guitar, and you could sing, and you could play. And it reminds me of something Joyce Johnson once wrote. Jack Kerouac had been her boyfriend. And in a memoir about that period of her life, she wrote that guys had adventures, and girls like her fell in love with the guys who had the adventures. And the girl's adventure was falling in love with the guy who had the adventure, as opposed to the girls having an adventure of their own. Being in love with the guy was the adventure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I can just remember those teenage years of - long, long before the Internet - so having access to almost no information about my body and no real understanding of how this thing worked - so, you kn"}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 13, "text": "This song made me think about that", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Oh, really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I remember reading that book."}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 16, "text": "\"Minor Characters,\" yes. Did you love that book?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Minor Characters.\""}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Well, I really like this song. So let's hear \"Guitar,\" written and performed by my guest Tracey Thorn from her new album \"Record.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I loved it, and it rang lots of bells with me. Yeah. You know, I've resented that idea for a very long time - the notion that, you know, the biggest adventure you are going to have is falling in love "}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 18, "text": "That's Tracey Thorn from her new album \"Record.\" So you describe that once you started playing in a band with boys, it felt like you'd gotten this secret access to this kind of boy gang", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Hey, boy, you taught me my first song. The air was warm. The night was long while Leonard Cohen sang \"Suzanne.\" We kissed and kissed, but then you ran. The song was \"Teenager In Love.\" Oh, G"}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 19, "text": ". But then you formed a group with other girls.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Hey, boy, you taught me my first song. The air was warm. The night was long while Leonard Cohen sang \"Suzanne.\" We kissed and kissed, but then you ran. The song was \"Teenager In Love.\" Oh, G"}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 20, "text": "How was it different?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 21, "text": "You wrote a column in the New Statesman about your reaction to younger feminists and how at first you were troubled about how the generation who came after you in the 1990s - you found them discombobulating and that, you know, in your feminist literature class when you were young, you'd all thrown the \"Story Of O\" across the room. But this new third wave of feminists seem to be OK with strip clubs and porn. Describe what was disturbing you at the time when you were thinking that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think I realized pretty quickly that the access to the boys' gang was always going to be slightly limited. And there were times when I began to think, OK, they're sort of implying that they, y"}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 22, "text": "I think part of the lens through which you're seeing the younger generation of feminists is through your daughters who you say formed a feminist club in college. What are you - what are you learning from them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So that was in the '90s, so I was sort of getting into my 30s at that stage. And I was very aware that there was a younger generation. There was also - I don't know whether this was true in America, b"}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 23, "text": "So after being in a band with guys and then forming a band with other girls, you ended up going to college. And at college, you soon fell in love with Ben Watt who became your music partner and your life partner. You've had children together. You've been together since - what year?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's interview from last May with British singer-songwriter and guitarist Tracey Thorn. It's one of our favorite intervi"}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 24, "text": "OK. And so together you formed the band Everything But The Girl. And you write that this was the time when you discovered feminism. And it made you question, was it the right decision to be in a band with your boyfriend? Was it even cool to have a boyfriend? Was monogamy inevitably awful and oppressive? And should you really try to be a lesbian?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "1981."}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 25, "text": "So some of the questions you were asking yourself at the time - how did you work through those questions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 26, "text": "So some of the questions you asked yourself about having your boyfriend, now husband, be in the same band with you was, would the relationship take precedence over work? What if you had a fight? What if they stopped being a - what if you stopped being a couple? Would there still be a band? Did you have to confront any of those questions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In the way you do when you're young, which is, you just kind of live your life - and, you know, the questions sort of answer themselves on a day-to-day basis. You know, I think if I was going to be gi"}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 27, "text": "One of the things that you did have to confront when you were with Ben in Everything But The Girl is that he got this rare autoimmune disease whose name I can't pronounce.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not seriously, but I do think one of the reasons that when we stopped in 2000, one of the reasons we haven't gone back to it is because I think we both have looked at each other and said, do you know "}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 28, "text": "Thank you. And it apparently causes vascular inflammation, and a lot of his small intestine had to be removed. You weren't sure he would survive. I mean, he was literally deathly ill. What kind of scenarios did you play in your mind when his life was in jeopardy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Churg-Strauss syndrome."}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 29, "text": "How do you think that experience changed your relationship?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, the moments when his life was in jeopardy, again, it's that sense of you're just completely wrapped up in the moment. I don't think during those - and it was weeks in hospital when, you know"}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 30, "text": "Is \"Amplified Heart\" the album that you made after he recovered?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's very hard to say, I suppose, because I find it hard to imagine our relationship without that thing having happened. I can almost think of a before and after. You know, they were the people we wer"}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 31, "text": "Yeah. Well, I want to play one of those songs. This is, \"We Walk The Same Line,\" which I think really is a song pledging to always be there for him, or pledging always to be there for each other. If you lose your faith, you can have mine. Do you want to say anything about the song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "some kind of experience."}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 32, "text": "So let's hear \"We Walk The Same Line\" from the Everything But The Girl album \"Amplified Heart.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, it is, I think, about that bond we had afterwards. You know, so you asked how things changed. And, you know, it was a mixture of, in some ways, feeling separate from each other because w"}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 33, "text": "That's Tracey Thorn's song \"We Walk The Same Line\" from the Everything But The Girl album \"Amplified Heart.\" Everything But The Girl was together from 1982 to 2000. Now Tracey Thorn records solo albums, and her new one is called \"Record.\" We'll be right back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Singing) If you lose your faith, babe, you can have mine. And if you're lost, I'm right behind 'cause we walk the same line. Now, I don't have to tell you how slow the night can go. I know you've watc"}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 34, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Tracey Thorn - singer, songwriter, formerly half of the group Everything But The Girl and now a solo artist. She's British and also writes a column for the political magazine the New Statesman in England. I want to ask you about the album cover for \"Amplified Heart.\" It looks like you and Ben are either getting dressed after sex or getting undressed before sex. Like, your T-shirt is hiked up. Your belt is unbuckled. Ben is shirtless in the background. What is that album cover about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Singing) If you lose your faith, babe, you can have mine. And if you're lost, I'm right behind 'cause we walk the same line. Now, I don't have to tell you how slow the night can go. I know you've watc"}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 35, "text": "You do", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it's interesting 'cause I look back at the album cover and I think - whoa, we look so skinny."}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 36, "text": ", both of you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it's interesting 'cause I look back at the album cover and I think - whoa, we look so skinny."}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 37, "text": "So I love your deep voice. And you've said that you didn't initially think of yourself as a singer but when you did start singing that you wanted to sing like Patti Smith or Siouxsie Sioux from Siouxsie and the Banshees. But you started singing that way on stage and then just kind of lost your voice. So what did you do instead?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We both - yeah, we really do. But, you know, that was post illness. He'd lost all that weight because of being sick, and I'd lost all that weight because of not eating for months because of being in t"}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 38, "text": "So you had a singing teacher for a while who'd worked with a lot of stars, including Johnny Rotten, Ozzy Osbourne, Linda McCartney, Seal, Joe Strummer - some of these things obviously happened after", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think for a while then, I had to try and work out a way of coming up with a voice that was my own, that I could, you know, have some control over. That took me quite a while. I think for a long time"}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 39, "text": "you studied with her. But she wanted you to sing higher, in more of a head voice than a chest voice. How did you like it up there in the higher range?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think for a while then, I had to try and work out a way of coming up with a voice that was my own, that I could, you know, have some control over. That took me quite a while. I think for a long time"}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 40, "text": "So when you - did you tell your singing teacher that you wanted to sing in your chest voice, in your deeper voice as opposed to the head voice? And what did she have to say about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not at all, not at all. And I think I completely ignored that piece of advice from her. I didn't have very many lessons to be honest. And I found bits of it helpful. I found some of it helpful as sort"}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 41, "text": "You know, you've written that your voice got deeper because of menopause, and I think it's great that you wrote about that because I think a lot of women are uncomfortable acknowledging the existence of menopause. It's personal, and it's also a sign of age.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think she was very tolerant, really, of pop singers wanting to sing in their disastrous pop voices. I mean, most pop singers sing all wrong. And, you know, we do all these things. And, you kno"}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 42, "text": "And sexiness.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, no. I think that's right and especially in music, obviously, which, you know, there's still a lot of pressure to, you know, maintain an image of youthfulness. So as soon as you bring the word men"}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 43, "text": "My guest is Tracey Thorn. Her new album is called \"Record.\" We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And sexiness - and so soon as you bring the word menopausal into the room, I think a lot of younger men, especially, might run screaming. And so that's a risk I'm prepared to take."}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 44, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. My guest is Tracey Thorn. She co-founded the band Everything But The Girl with her then-boyfriend, now-husband Ben Watt. Now she records solo albums. Her new album is called \"Record.\" So I want to play another song from your new album. This is called \"Smoke.\" It's a kind of political song. It's a song about your love of England, about your parents and grandparents growing up in England. And you say, London, you're in my blood, but I feel you going wrong. So is this a song about Brexit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And sexiness - and so soon as you bring the word menopausal into the room, I think a lot of younger men, especially, might run screaming. And so that's a risk I'm prepared to take."}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 45, "text": "In the song, you talk a little bit about your mother experiencing the Blitz in London during World War II and how a friend of a friend was blown to bits. Did you grow up with a lot of war stories?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Maybe partly but it's also just what's happening to lots of cities. You know, the same thing's happening to London as is happening to New York - you know, that hollowing out of a city. I talk in the s"}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 46, "text": "All right, well, let's hear the song \"Smoke\" from Tracey Thorn's new album \"Record.\" Tracey Thorn, it's been such a pleasure to have you on the show. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did but in the way that I was never really made to take them that seriously. I don't know whether it was a generational thing or a thing about being British. But both my parents had been in London d"}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 47, "text": "Something I sometimes like to do when a songwriter is in the studio with us - and that is I'd like to ask you to play an excerpt of a song that you didn't write but that you really love - not a new song but a song from the past or your past. What would you want to do?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's the song \"Smoke\" from Tracey Thorn's latest \"Record,\" which tops our rock critic Ken Tucker's list of best albums of 2018. Terry Gross spoke to Tracey Thorn last May. We'll end with another fav"}
{"id": "680467864", "date": "2018-12-28", "guest": "And Corinne Bailey Rae", "title": "'A Distinctive Voice': Tracey Thorn Goes On 'Record'", "question_index": 48, "text": "Well, that's wonderful.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "How about this one (playing guitar). You know what it is right away - don't you? - from that lick. (Singing) I've got sunshine on a cloudy day. When it's cold outside, I've got the month of May. I gue"}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 0, "text": "Jon Batiste, welcome to FRESH AIR. I really love your playing, and I'm so grateful to you for being at the piano. So I - this is a really corny, dumb question to ask a pianist, I know. But how do you do it? How do - like on \"Kenner Boogie\" that we just heard, how do you coordinate the left and right hands? They're doing such different things, and what they're doing is so complex.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 1, "text": "Can you break down what each hand is doing? JON BATISTE (MUSICAL ARTIST): Absolutely.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 2, "text": "And can you include some of those really, like, rumbly left-hand chords you've got going on there?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 3, "text": "Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You got to."}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 4, "text": "And some of the left-hand playing that you have going on in that track is really kind of rumbly. Can you do some of the chords that you've included in that composition?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 5, "text": "That's what I was talking about", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, sometimes the emotion overwhelms you, and you have to growl. And this is something that I've kind of developed with my left hand that I really love. When I get that feeling, it's like a growl of"}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, sometimes the emotion overwhelms you, and you have to growl. And this is something that I've kind of developed with my left hand that I really love. When I get that feeling, it's like a growl of"}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 7, "text": "Were you always singing? Or did that come later?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So you know, you put them all together, and you know, it's like a gumbo. You put everything in the pot. And in the moment, you just fly. You know, after you make your 100th vat of gumbo, you get a fee"}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 8, "text": "So you grew up in Louisiana near New Orleans in Kenner. What were some of the most common rhythms? And you started as a drummer in your family's band. So what were some of the rhythms that you were taught to play as a drummer that helped guide you in your formative years as a pianist, things that you transferred to piano?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- cannot do this, and I told my dad. And that's when I really started to get into instruments, starting with the drums and percussion and eventually the piano when I was 11. And that phase began my re"}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 9, "text": "So do you want to translate that rhythm to something that you do with the piano?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", my cousins - and not only was I learning the bamboula but I was learning it from them. So I had four variations of it. So by the time I started really playing and getting to the piano, I had such a "}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yeah, I love that piece.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there's a piece on the album, \"Nocturne No. 1,\" that has that rhythm."}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 11, "text": "I really love that. And on the album, there's, like, castanets", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. It's really something that kind of takes that rhythm but also my classical music training and love for the form and development of those sort of theme and variation and kind of matches them up an"}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 12, "text": "in the background. Is there a little Jelly Roll Morton in that, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. It's really something that kind of takes that rhythm but also my classical music training and love for the form and development of those sort of theme and variation and kind of matches them up an"}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 13, "text": "But you say you ran from it. What did you run from?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was the father of it in many ways. If you listen to his Library of Congress recordings and you hear him talk about his approach, there's a lot of similarities into - even the way that he touches th"}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 14, "text": "Is that part of the reason why you wanted to go to Juilliard, to kind of remove yourself from all of the New Orleans influences and styles and the family even and just be on yourself and develop individually?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I ran from the idea of being a part of a lineage. I wanted to be something completely separate."}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 15, "text": "Yes, legible ones", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wanted to find something that I hadn't quite identified yet. And I was listening to a lot of albums that were made in New York - and this is back when we had liner notes."}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wanted to find something that I hadn't quite identified yet. And I was listening to a lot of albums that were made in New York - and this is back when we had liner notes."}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 17, "text": "So you know, you mentioned that with Jelly Roll Morton, one of the things you really liked about his playing was his touch. One of the things I really like about your playing is your touch. I feel like your notes are so clearly articulated, and they ring out so clearly. And so is that something that you've studied, that you consciously tried to perfect, that clearness of articulation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And we didn't have too many big record stores. Eventually, Tower Records, I'd go to and pick up just bags and bags of CDs. And I would listen to those and nerd out on who was playing on what and sta"}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 18, "text": "Why - like, too classical or something, too European?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Clearness of articulation - in fact, I would say that's one of the things that I ran from early on."}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 19, "text": "No, really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, funny - I thought it was too black."}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 20, "text": "Is there anything that you can demonstrate for us about what you were hearing compared to what you were doing, that kind of comparison that made you feel like you were antiquated?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And it was something that I was just very, very self-conscious about for a while, thinking - well, man, this is just like - I sound like a blues pianist, or I sound like an older, more antiquated so"}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 21, "text": "Monk.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So that's an exaggeration. But the difference really was something that was unwieldy to me. I didn't know how to harness that sound. And one of the real champions of this kind of tonal piano - we talk"}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 22, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Thelonious Monk."}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is pianist and composer Jon Batiste, who is actually seated at a piano and playing for us. He's the music...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He - hearing his music, it vindicated me in a lot of ways."}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 24, "text": "Yes, thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Playing piano)."}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 25, "text": "He's the music director of \"The Late Show With Stephen Colbert,\" where he leads his band Stay Human. He has a new album called \"Hollywood Africans,\" on which he plays boogie, a composition inspired by Chopin, a couple of standards, a few originals. It's a terrific album. I hear so much Monk in your playing - again, not imitating him but having kind of absorbed him and made it your own. What did you hear in Monk that made you feel like what you were doing was OK and that took you even further into it? 'Cause I could tell you what I hear but tell me what - you tell me", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 26, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 27, "text": "Things I hear you doing that remind me of Monk is your use of dissonance, your use of kind of punctuation, your use of space - of letting things ring out and not filling it - and the kind of angularity of Monk. So can you play something of your own that incorporates the kinds of things we've been talking about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- a fully realized version of the sound. I'm like, oh, that's what I'm trying to get to. That's it right there. What song is this? And I go up to the piano player. And I ask him, what song are you pla"}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 28, "text": "Oh, that's great", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely. There's a piece that I recorded twice titled \"Red Beans,\" and it's a blues. And when you hear the melody, it has that rhyme and also that space and dissonance that's characteristic of "}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 29, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely. There's a piece that I recorded twice titled \"Red Beans,\" and it's a blues. And when you hear the melody, it has that rhyme and also that space and dissonance that's characteristic of "}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 30, "text": "I do. Do you still listen to a lot of Monk?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm glad you like it."}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 31, "text": "OK. Let's do a little contrast here - some Bach and how that's influenced you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't listen to Monk regularly, but I always come back to his music. Bach is another one - James Brown, Nina Simone."}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 32, "text": "Can you play an example of Bach that you think exemplifies both, like, the spiritual but also the kind of game-like aspect of it in its structure?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So..."}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 33, "text": "I want to play something from your new record, \"Hollywood Africans,\" that's kind of the opposite of the joyful boogie. And this is \"St. James Infirmary.\" And I've heard many versions of this over the years. This is, I think, my favorite because you bring out the death in it. It's so dirge-like. It feels very deeply felt. So let's hear the recording, and then we'll talk about your interpretation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "the simplicity of how he makes something that is just two melodies playing in conversation - asking questions, responding. Sometimes they're talking at the same time; other times, it's call and respon"}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 34, "text": "So that's Jon Batiste from his new album \"Hollywood Africans.\" And Jon is at the piano. So it's a really terrific version of that song. I think it's such an interesting contrast to the boogie that we opened with 'cause this is so intentionally spare. So talk about your interpretation of the song and what's going on with that really dirge-like, march-like set of chords you're using.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "the simplicity of how he makes something that is just two melodies playing in conversation - asking questions, responding. Sometimes they're talking at the same time; other times, it's call and respon"}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 35, "text": "So I want to move on to your work on \"The Late Show With Stephen Colbert,\" where you're the bandleader and music director. You lead your band, Stay Human, on the show. And you had to write the theme for the show. So what were some of the challenges of writing a theme that were different from anything else you'd written before?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you got to think of a place. And you have to really put yourself in the story. My goal is to really be authentic in conveying an emotion. And for me, I have to be in a place. So I'm thinking of "}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 36, "text": "What do you mean? Play us what you're talking about.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wanted to write something that captured a theme-like quality, which means you want to hum it (humming) - something that captured that hummable, singable quality but also that had - it represented al"}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 37, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, so I wanted - I, being an avid sitcom watcher in the '90s, I wanted to capture those feelings of nostalgia in the theme somehow with the harmonic progression. So you hear the progression... "}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 38, "text": "That also has a quality of conversation that you were talking about. What's the question? What's the answer? What's the response?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Playing piano). You know? (Playing piano, vocalizing). You know, just like all these kinds of sounds - you know, those chords are coming together in a way that just makes me feel nostalgic for when I"}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 39, "text": "Was this your first version of the theme? And did Stephen Colbert reject any of the themes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I mean, I'm a firm believer in call and response. I think it's the oldest musical form because we always had a sense of how to communicate with each other even before there was language."}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 40, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So he called me one day, and he asked me to write the theme and give him a few different options. And he had a few songs that he referenced in terms of what not to do."}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 41, "text": "That's the name of the actual theme.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I won't say those songs - references. But he just told me what he didn't want. And so I was like, OK. I'll try to figure out - in fact, he did like one of the songs from one of my albums, \"Social Musi"}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 42, "text": "What's the more in-your-face theme that you didn't use as the main theme?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was just sitting there. I was like - I always love it when that happens, just, like, sitting down and, knock-knock - hey, special delivery."}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 43, "text": "I like it. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "?"}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 44, "text": "One of the things that you have to do as the bandleader - and during Stephen Colbert's opening monologue, you often do the piano equivalent of a rimshot to say, like, that was funny, and punctuate the joke. But you'll play, like, a fragment of a tune that comments or that aligns with the joke. So for example,", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's got the thing to it. And the horns, you know... (Playing piano). ...That kind of thing. I think that's it. I kind of messed it up a little bit, but that's kind of the vibe of it."}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 45, "text": ", when Colbert is doing a golden showers joke related to the Trump dossier, you often play the Monk piece...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's got the thing to it. And the horns, you know... (Playing piano). ...That kind of thing. I think that's it. I kind of messed it up a little bit, but that's kind of the vibe of it."}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 46, "text": "So when did you start thinking, like, \"Trinkle, Tinkle\" would work great for golden showers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 47, "text": "Something we haven't talked about is church. I don't know how much time you spent in church as a child and what the music was like there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's all in the moment. It's the improvisation, and then things become routine. You want to have some stuff in your trunk. And I really, really have improvised to find a lot of that stuff. I wanted to"}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 48, "text": "And what about in the other church?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had a lot of great experiences. You know, I grew up in Catholic church, Baptist church. My grandfather and my grandmother went to different churches. And the experience was very varied, but it was g"}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 49, "text": "I want to play another song from your new album \"Hollywood Africans.\" This is an original song called \"Is It Over.\" And we're going to hear you singing and playing piano. And are you on organ also? Did you overdub organ?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". That was more about the excitement of letting your spirit shine."}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 50, "text": "OK. So this is a Jon Batiste original called \"Is It Over\" from his new album \"Hollywood Africans.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. There's organ. There's the choir, an amazing choir. Yeah, this one is coming from very deep within."}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 51, "text": "That's Jon Batiste from his new album \"Hollywood Africans.\" He's the music director of \"The Late Show With Stephen Colbert,\" where he leads his band Stay Human. Let's get back to our interview with Jon Batiste, the music director of \"The Late Show With Stephen Colbert,\" where he leads his band, Stay Human. He's at the piano for our interview.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You love, and you can't deny. And you try so hard. You try. But it's me and you, not I. Please me. Please me. (Singing) Please me, and just tell me what I want to hear. And she said, yeah. S"}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 52, "text": "So what I sometimes do on the show when I'm talking to a musician who's doing a kind of musical autobiography is to ask them to redeem a song, to take a song that we wouldn't expect them to like that they do or a song that we think of as square, too corny, too sentimental, a song beyond redemption but that you love. So is there a song like that that comes to mind that you would like to redeem for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You love, and you can't deny. And you try so hard. You try. But it's me and you, not I. Please me. Please me. (Singing) Please me, and just tell me what I want to hear. And she said, yeah. S"}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 53, "text": "Just the children's song...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I love \"Happy And You Know It.\" I really like that song."}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 54, "text": "...That you're talking about...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I like what it represents."}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 55, "text": "...If you're happy and you know it, clap your hands?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 56, "text": "And why do you love this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 57, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "at the root of it, it's the same thing, which is why I think children can respond to it in such an intuitive way. This - it's kind of... (Playing piano). ...And then... (Playing piano). And that's it."}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 58, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just bring out some of the emotions of it. And then when you play a... (Playing piano)."}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 59, "text": "Oh, I like it now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know, it's just a - I don't know. I like it. It's cool."}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 60, "text": "I like what you did with it", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know, it's just a - I don't know. I like it. It's cool."}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 61, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know, it's just a - I don't know. I like it. It's cool."}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 62, "text": "Jon Batiste, you have been so wonderful. I am so grateful to you. Thank you so much. You've been so generous with your music, with us and", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's like... (Singing, playing piano) If you're happy and you know it, clap your hands. If you're happy and you know it, clap your hand, Lord. If you're happy and you know it and you really want to sh"}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 63, "text": "in general. Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's like... (Singing, playing piano) If you're happy and you know it, clap your hands. If you're happy and you know it, clap your hand, Lord. If you're happy and you know it and you really want to sh"}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 64, "text": "Jon Batiste's recent album is called \"Hollywood Africans.\" The title is a reference to the 1983 painting by Jean-Michel Basquiat. Batiste is working on a musical based on Basquiat's life. Our interview was recorded last September. Batiste joined us from the studio of WNYC. Our thanks to WNYC engineer George Wellington. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we conclude our holiday series featuring favorite interviews from 2018 with actor Rami Malek. He plays Freddie Mercury, lead singer of Queen, in the new film \"Bohemian Rhapsody.\" Malek also stars in the TV series \"Mr. Robot\" as a troubled hacker. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here. And till next time."}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 65, "text": "JON BATISTE AND STAY HUMAN (MUSICAL ARTIST): (Singing) Should auld acquaintance be forgot and never brought to mind? May auld acquaintance be forgot and auld lang syne. For auld lang syne, my dear - for auld, for auld lang syne. We'll take a cup - a cup of kindness yet for auld - for auld lang syne.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here. And till next time."}
{"id": "680666330", "date": "2018-12-31", "guest": "Batiste", "title": "'In The Moment, You Just Fly': Jon Batiste Lets Loose At The Piano", "question_index": 66, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Mooj Zadie, Thea Chaloner and Seth Kelley. Our associate producer for digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Audrey Bentham is our technical director. Our other engineers are Adam Staniszewski and Charlie Kaier. I'm Terry Gross. All of us wish you a healthy and fulfilling 2019.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here. And till next time."}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Happy new year. Today, we conclude our holiday series featuring favorite interviews of the year. The interview we're about to hear was one of the most popular interviews on our website. It's with Rami Malek, who stars in the movie \"Bohemian Rhapsody\" as Freddie Mercury, the lead singer and songwriter of Queen. The title of the film comes from the title of one of their most famous songs.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 1, "text": "Queen's biggest hits were in the '70s and early '80s, like \"Bohemian Rhapsody,\" \"We Will Rock You,\" \"We Are The Champions\" and \"Another One Bites The Dust,\" but those records have endured beyond their time on the charts. \"We Will Rock You\" and \"We Are The Champions\" became popular chants at stadium sports events. Freddie Mercury was a very theatrical performer with a big personality. He died of complications related to AIDS in 1991. Rami Malek's performance as Freddie Mercury is a big contrast to his starring role in the TV series \"Mr. Robot\" as a withdrawn hacker with social anxiety disorder. Let's start with a scene from \"Bohemian Rhapsody.\" It's 1975, and Freddie Mercury and the members of Queen are in the office of a record executive, played by Mike Myers, talking about the record they're about to release. Freddie Mercury speaks first.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Mama, just killed a man. Put a gun against his head. Pulled my trigger. Now he's dead. Mama, life had just begun, but now I've gone and thrown it all away. Mama, ooh, didn't mean to make you"}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 2, "text": "Rami Malek, welcome to FRESH AIR. It's so much fun to watch you as Freddie Mercury. How did you get the part of Freddie Mercury? Did you ask to audition, or were you invited?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Freddie Mercury) No. Don't misunderstand, darling. It's a rock 'n' roll record, with the scale of opera, the pathos of Greek tragedy, the wit of Shakespeare, the unbridled joy of musical theater. "}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 3, "text": "Was singing part of your audition?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was invited, which just feels like a very rare thing, especially when you're auditioning for someone as magnificent and iconic as Freddie Mercury. I was still shooting \"Mr. Robot,\" and the producers"}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It ended up being part of that audition. I warned them I was not a singer. I told them, I don't play the piano. What I do when I'm out on the dance floor could be considered something having to do wit"}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 5, "text": "Yeah. All the music credits in the movie, you know, at the end of the credits are attributed to Queen. So you sang as you were filming, but the music that we're hearing is actually Freddie Mercury and Queen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I ended up flying myself out to London because I wanted to be prepared. It was never officially greenlit yet at this point, and I started practicing everything - singing, piano. I started working with"}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 6, "text": "There's actually a scene where you're at the piano singing a sketch of \"Bohemian Rhapsody,\" and your voice breaks. Is any of that you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's actually an amalgamation. I will say the large majority of it is Freddie Mercury. I went out every day and sang at the top of my lungs because that's the only way to match what he's doing. He's g"}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 7, "text": "Should we just hear that bit", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Rami Malek."}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 8, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Rami Malek."}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 9, "text": "OK. Let us know if you can tell which part is you, OK?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 10, "text": "So this is a scene from the movie, \"Bohemian Rhapsody,\" where Rami Malek as Freddie Mercury is at the piano in his living room singing \"Bohemian Rhapsody.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You got it."}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 11, "text": "OK. So the final note,", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Freddie Mercury, singing) Goodbye, everybody. I've got to go, got to leave you all behind and face the truth. Mama, ooh. I don't want to die. I sometimes wish I'd never been born at all."}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 12, "text": ", his or yours, voice breaks. What are we hearing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Freddie Mercury, singing) Goodbye, everybody. I've got to go, got to leave you all behind and face the truth. Mama, ooh. I don't want to die. I sometimes wish I'd never been born at all."}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 13, "text": "So now that you've taken singing lessons, are you more comfortable singing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Gosh. The majority of that is obviously Freddie Mercury, but somehow they found a way to put me in there. And I can't - I really can't tell you. It feels so seamless to me, and that's, I think, one of"}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 14, "text": "Did you not play at all when you started?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No. I say I'm more comfortable dancing and more comfortable being on stage. I enjoy the piano now. I find it meditative. At one point, I play it upside down in the film. And I thought, oh, of all "}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 15, "text": "So what can you play on your own now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I'd never played a piano, never touched a piano. I had to learn the guitar, as well, for \"Crazy Little Thing Called Love,\" which didn't make it into the film. But everything was - it was like goin"}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Only \"Bohemian Rhapsody\" and \"We Are The Champions.\""}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I noodle every once in a while."}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 18, "text": "So \"Bohemian Rhapsody\" is bookended by - basically, like, a reproduction of the famous Queen performance at Live Aid in 1985. And for people who don't remember or weren't alive then, that was this huge benefit concert in 1985 for the benefit of people suffering from the famine in Ethiopia. And your performance - there were multiple stages for this. The Queen - I said your performance. The Queen performance was in Wembley Stadium in London to an audience of 72,000 people. So you as Freddie Mercury had to reproduce that performance. Now, anyone can see that performance on YouTube. It's easy to see, so I know you had no problem watching the actual Live Aid performance, which is considered one of the great performances in rock history. So I'm sure you must have studied it move by move, including learning Freddie Mercury's microphone technique 'cause he - he'd basically be handed the mic on the stand but not on the base. So it was just like the pole with the mic on it, and then he'd use that as a prop, you know, strutting around on stage and using it as a - you know, strumming it like it was a guitar, putting it across his groin as if it were a large phallus, you know, all the rock tricks", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I'll call those original works."}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 19, "text": ". So talk to us about, like, studying Freddie Mercury during the Live Aid concert and also, like, how he used the microphone.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I'll call those original works."}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 20, "text": "Wait, now I'm going to stop you. When you say half-mic, does that mean, like, the pole with the mic on it. Like, the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I walked around London for about two months with this half-mic, and I think now..."}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 21, "text": "You walked around with the mic on it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct, yeah."}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 22, "text": "Yes. It looks like a weapon.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I walked around with the mic attached to it. I just never wanted to lose focus of what I was doing, and that was a very constant reminder. Sometimes I would tuck the microphone into my backpack,"}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 23, "text": "So I was wondering when you're on stage, first of all, did you film the Live Aid concert at Wembley? And were there 72,000 people in the audience? Was that, like, footage from the actual concert that was, like, put in in a seamless way to make it look like you were performing to the audience that was actually there in 1985? Was this CGI? Like, what was the setting? Who was actually there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. So I kept the mic on it just to remind people, hey, I'm not out to hurt anyone. It was the first thing we shot, Live Aid. Day one - we came out, and it was - it's that massive crane shot that"}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 24, "text": "Oh, it doesn't even exist.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wembley doesn't exist at that point. There's a new Wembley Stadium."}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 25, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It doesn't exist. We recreated it on an airfield just outside London. And we did bring in fans - actors - to be Queen fans who actually were Queen fans. And I thought, oh, that's terrific. We'll have "}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 26, "text": "You know, it takes guts if you're Freddie Mercury and you're performing in front of an audience of 72,000 people in this huge stadium and you're starting your set by sitting at the piano alone playing a few chords that everybody knows and that they're already going crazy because of that, and then you start singing solo for a while before the band comes in. Did the confidence wear off on you? I don't know how confident you are as Rami Malek, but did you become more confident embracing your Rami Malek self after having embraced Freddie Mercury's confidence?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We did have at some point thousands of background actors there, supporting actors, but never, of course, 72,000. That would have taken up the entire budget to be able to do something like that, and lo"}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was a moment where I stepped on stage in a sequined leotard that leaves nothing to the imagination. And at one point, I said, listen; if you're going to play a man who rocked this thing out like"}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 28, "text": "Another thing we should mention is your teeth. He had - what? - four extra teeth in his upper mouth. And he had, you know, very bucked teeth as a result. And so you had fake teeth that you used made for you by a famous, like, Hollywood prosthetic teeth designer. What was it like for you to wear them? Like, how did it change your feeling of your mouth and your ability to talk and sing? 'Cause, like, not only did you have to sing, you know, for the performance - even though they weren't necessarily going to use your voice, you still had to sing. And so you're doing something you're not used to doing, singing, and you're doing it with teeth that aren't even yours.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he laughed, and he looked at me and said, well, we've come a long way, haven't we?"}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Rami Malek, who plays Freddie Mercury in the new Queen biopic, \"Bohemian Rhapsody.\" Malek also stars in the TV series \"Mr. Robot.\" Freddie Mercury was born in Zanzibar and grew up there and in India before his family immigrated to England. Rami Malek is American, the son of Egyptian immigrants. When we left off, he was talking about trying to understand and convey who Freddie Mercury was.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. The teeth were difficult to get used to in the beginning. Initially, I put them in my mouth a year prior to shooting and immediately felt insecure. I felt like I was on my back foot in a way. I d"}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 30, "text": "Did you feel like you were going to be letting them down if you failed? - that they came here - I don't know if you were already born when they came here. But still, they probably knew they'd be having, you know, children or more children. And often with immigrants, the idea is it's for their children. So if you failed as an actor, would you have been letting them down? Did you feel guilty for even trying for an acting career?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had to demystify him somehow. And the way to do that was looking at his background. And I thought to myself, here's a young man, immigrated to a country, defied all obstacles to do what he loved. An"}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 31, "text": "Did you deliver pizzas to, like, famous producers or directors?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a good question. Yeah. I did feel a bit guilty. And the only way to compensate for that was just to give it my all. There was one moment I was in my apartment that we were living in - four of us "}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 32, "text": "Seriously? Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did get an audition out of it once, and I thought..."}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 33, "text": "Did you get the commercial?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. Yeah, I did. It was for a commercial and still kept in touch with that person who gave me the audition."}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 34, "text": "What was it for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did not, no."}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 35, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was for M&M's."}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 36, "text": "So you got the \"Gilmore Girls\" part, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I will tell you this. One day, I did get a call. I got a call from Mara Casey, who was a casting director for the \"Gilmore Girls.\" And she asked to speak with Rami Malek's agent, and I said, speaking."}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 37, "text": "Let's talk a little bit about \"Mr. Robot.\" Now, in this, you're somebody who has serious mental health issues, serious social problems. It's very hard for you to be with people. You're very withdrawn. You literally withdraw into your hoodie most of the time. And you're a hacker by night, but you're, like, a tech worker during the day. In the opening episode of Season 1, you walk into a coffee shop, Ron's Coffee shop, and you sit down with the owner. And you start talking to the owner of the shop. Let's listen to that scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I got the part the next day."}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 38, "text": "That might sound like an expression of sympathy", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Elliot Alderson) I understand what it's like to be different. I'm very different, too."}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 39, "text": "but right after that, Rami Malek's character is offered money by the coffee shop owner to cover this up. And Elliot, Rami Malek's character, the hacker, says that he doesn't care about money. And it turns out, he's tipped off the police. And as he gets up to leave the coffee shop, the police get out of their cars. And they start walking in to bust the coffee shop owner. It's a great scene, and it kind of hooks you right at that - right in Episode 1. How did you get the part of \"Mr. Robot?\" You weren't very well-known at the time. I mean, \"Mr. Robot\" is really what made you well-known.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Elliot Alderson) I understand what it's like to be different. I'm very different, too."}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 40, "text": "How did you prepare yourself to play someone who's a brilliant hacker but also has serious mental health problems and a very, very deep sadness and loneliness? I'm even wondering if you talked to therapists, not about your own mental health issues but about his.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct. That - I got the part, actually, auditioning with that very scene. Sam Esmail, who is the creator of \"Mr. Robot,\" had seen me do a mini series that was from Steven Spielberg and Tom Hanks cal"}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 41, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. I ended up reaching out to a psychologist named Jenny Maury (ph). And I asked her if there was any way we could have sessions where we would talk about Elliot Alderson, and let's talk about sch"}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 42, "text": "Oh, that's great. That's great. What has it been like to stay in Elliot's mind for several years, in his, like, you know, depressed, anxious, social anxiety kind of mind?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I said, sure. And eventually, she was brought on as a consultant for the show."}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 43, "text": "So since he hides under his hoodie whenever he's in public, I'm wondering if you've gotten interesting responses either from hackers - because he's a hacker - from people with mental health issues or from hoodie manufacturers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was taxing. I'm not going to lie. There were many, many hours spent in that mind frame. And it's a very isolated, lonely place to be. He's profoundly alienated. He has an incredibly difficult time "}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 44, "text": "So your parents are Coptic Christians, who emigrated from Egypt. Most Americans don't know anything about Coptic Christians. Were there other children of immigrants in your neighborhood? Did you live in a Coptic community in LA?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Before we did the pilot, I just walked around the streets of New York with my head down and the hoodie on. And I said to our costume designer early on, I want an outfit that if you are surveilling him"}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 45, "text": "Born into.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I went to Coptic church as a child, and that's about a three-to-four-hour service, which was in a language I didn't understand. I speak and understand Arabic, but there's a Coptic language that was ve"}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 46, "text": "Did you have a hard time explaining to your fellow students in Catholic school that you weren't Catholic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Born into, yes."}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 47, "text": "Did people think your name was Raymi (ph)?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a very good question. Yes, I did. Yeah. I didn't know how to explain that when it came time to do confession, I wasn't going to be participating in that. I had a lot of explaining to do, I felt"}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 48, "text": "Oh because your brother's Sammy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They thought it rhymed with Sammy, so Sammy and Rammy (ph) and it took..."}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 49, "text": "Oh, so you were known as Rammy for years.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct. And it only took me till high school where I found the confidence to tell everybody, no, my name is Rami."}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 50, "text": "Did your parents speak English when you were growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's a very upsetting thing to think about, that I didn't have the confidence to correct anyone at that point."}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 51, "text": "Do you know why they moved to the U.S.?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mostly Arabic but, yes, quite a bit of English. My dad was very extremely well-read. And, yeah, my mom and dad spoke English, and we split time at home speaking between Arabic and English."}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 52, "text": "You know, you mentioned that Coptic Christians are very much a minority in Egypt, which is a predominately Muslim country. Six Coptic Christian pilgrims were killed in an attack in Egypt that ISIS claimed responsibility for. I don't know if you still have family in Egypt, but have their lives been changed in recent years both from, like, ISIS but also how the pro-democracy movement after the Arab Spring kind of failed and now President el-Sisi runs the country?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I think - look; they lived in - and Egypt was a majority-Muslim country. I think it's under 10 percent that is Christian. They're Coptic Christian. And I don't know that that was the exact r"}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 53, "text": "And the shocking thing, too, is that some Americans have lived through that or been killed by such acts in the very recent past.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have so much family there, and it's quite sad. I keep up with everything that's happening with them. And, you know, these shootings, these bombings, these attacks, it's difficult for a family that h"}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 54, "text": "One of the predicaments that a lot of actors who are of Arab descent or from predominantly Muslim countries, one of their predicaments is - and this was maybe especially true a few years ago - that the role that they were likely to be cast in was terrorists - Terrorist No. 1, Terrorist No. 3. You had your shot as a terrorist on \"24.\" Were you conflicted about taking the part?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, it destroys me when any act of violence is taken. And, you know, this one is something that is very close to me. I mean, I'm very alerted in a - with the relationship that is so immediat"}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 55, "text": "Rami Malek, it's really been so great to talk with you. Thank you so much. Thank you for your performances.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very conflicted, yeah, and to the point where I made a very resolved move to not do those roles any longer. One, I didn't want to be that - the reflection of my work or the reflection of the community"}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 56, "text": "Rami Malek stars in the film \"Bohemian Rhapsody\" as Freddie Mercury. He also stars in the USA Network series \"Mr. Robot.\" Our interview was recorded in November. And that concludes our holiday series featuring some favorite interviews of the year. Tomorrow, we return to new interviews. My guest will be the author of the new book \"Punishment Without Crime: How Our Massive Misdemeanor System Traps The Innocent And Makes America More Unequal.\" Alexandra Natapoff writes that our system for dealing with petty offenses disproportionately punishes the poor and working class. Natapoff is a former assistant federal public defender and is now a law professor at the University of California, Berkeley. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's been an absolute pleasure. I don't usually share this much of myself, but I figured, what better place to do it than on NPR with you, Terry? Thank you very much."}
{"id": "680667744", "date": "2019-01-01", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 57, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director is Audrey Bentham. Our associate producer for digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross. All of us at FRESH AIR wish you a happy new year.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Can anybody find me somebody to love? Ooh, each morning I get up I die a little, can barely stand on my feet, take a look at yourself, take a look in the mirror and cry and cry. Lord, what y"}
{"id": "681606995", "date": "2019-01-02", "guest": "Alexandra Natapoff", "title": "'Punishment Without Crime' Highlights The Injustice Of America's Misdemeanor System", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're going to talk about a part of the criminal justice system that my guest describes as trapping the innocent and making America more unequal - the massive misdemeanor system. Depending on where you are, some misdemeanors are as minor as jaywalking. But the consequences of being charged with a misdemeanor, whether you are guilty or not, can be life-changing, especially if you are poor. My guest, Alexandra Natapoff, is the author of the new book, \"Punishment Without Crime.\" Critics of how the criminal justice system deals with misdemeanors have described it as assembly line justice or McJustice. Natapoff is a professor of law at the University of California, Irvine. From 2000 to 2003, she was an assistant federal public defender in Baltimore. She drew on those experiences for the book, but it's also based on extensive data she collected from every state around the country and on interviews with people who've gone through the misdemeanor process, as well as police, prosecutors, public defenders and judges. Alexandra Natapoff, welcome to FRESH AIR. Let's start with a precedent-setting case from 1997 in which a mother was driving with her 3 and 5-year-old children in the car, and she was arrested for a seatbelt violation. Describe what she was arrested for.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "681606995", "date": "2019-01-02", "guest": "Alexandra Natapoff", "title": "'Punishment Without Crime' Highlights The Injustice Of America's Misdemeanor System", "question_index": 1, "text": "So how long was she in jail?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Gail Atwater and her kids were driving around their local park very slowly - about 15 miles an hour. Her child, Mac, had lost his toy and the kids were looking out the window of their truck to try to "}
{"id": "681606995", "date": "2019-01-02", "guest": "Alexandra Natapoff", "title": "'Punishment Without Crime' Highlights The Injustice Of America's Misdemeanor System", "question_index": 2, "text": "When you say she had a record, this is her record. She didn't have one before this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Gail Atwater spent a few hours that day in jail. She was booked. They took her personal possessions. She was fingerprinted. She spent the time in the lockup as anybody would if they were arrested for "}
{"id": "681606995", "date": "2019-01-02", "guest": "Alexandra Natapoff", "title": "'Punishment Without Crime' Highlights The Injustice Of America's Misdemeanor System", "question_index": 3, "text": "Yeah. So let's talk more about what a misdemeanor is. Not having your children wear seatbelts - that's a misdemeanor. But there's a wide range of crimes that qualify as misdemeanors. Can you give us a sense of that range?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct."}
{"id": "681606995", "date": "2019-01-02", "guest": "Alexandra Natapoff", "title": "'Punishment Without Crime' Highlights The Injustice Of America's Misdemeanor System", "question_index": 4, "text": "So your book is, in part, about the inequality of the misdemeanor system and how it's racially unequal and there's a class system within the misdemeanor system. So I don't know what kind of income the woman who was arrested for the seatbelt violation had, but what are the differences in how that might've been handled between a person who had money and a person who didn't?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So misdemeanors are minor offenses. Every jurisdiction defines them differently. Typically, they're defined as any criminal offense for which you can do no more than one year incarceration as punishme"}
{"id": "681606995", "date": "2019-01-02", "guest": "Alexandra Natapoff", "title": "'Punishment Without Crime' Highlights The Injustice Of America's Misdemeanor System", "question_index": 5, "text": "Let's talk about bail. I mean, what is the purpose of bail, and how do you think it's being misused now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One of the startling things about our enormous misdemeanor system is just how unequal it is. It often goes after low income and impoverished individuals. It sweeps in people of color, often disproport"}
{"id": "681606995", "date": "2019-01-02", "guest": "Alexandra Natapoff", "title": "'Punishment Without Crime' Highlights The Injustice Of America's Misdemeanor System", "question_index": 6, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Alexandra Natapoff, author of the new book \"Punishment Without Crime: How Our Massive Misdemeanor System Traps The Innocent And Makes America More Unequal.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The purpose of bail is supposed to be to ensure that people appear for court when they're charged with an offense. When people are charged with an offense, they're, of course, presumptively innocent. "}
{"id": "681606995", "date": "2019-01-02", "guest": "Alexandra Natapoff", "title": "'Punishment Without Crime' Highlights The Injustice Of America's Misdemeanor System", "question_index": 7, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Alexandra Natapoff. She is the author of the new book \"Punishment Without Crime: How Our Massive Misdemeanor System Traps The Innocent And Makes America More Unequal.\" She's also a professor at the University of California, Irvine and a former assistant federal public defender in Baltimore. You mentioned that fees and fines are used to fund things. And by things, do you mean, like, to fund cities and counties and municipalities - that those funds go into funding the system? So in that sense, kind of like traffic tickets, they're an important part of fundraising for the budget.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The purpose of bail is supposed to be to ensure that people appear for court when they're charged with an offense. When people are charged with an offense, they're, of course, presumptively innocent. "}
{"id": "681606995", "date": "2019-01-02", "guest": "Alexandra Natapoff", "title": "'Punishment Without Crime' Highlights The Injustice Of America's Misdemeanor System", "question_index": 8, "text": "I think, for some areas, the police are expected to - or may be required to - pull over a certain number of people per month. Like, there's a quota. And I'm wondering if you think that contributes to problems within the misdemeanor system.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And misdemeanors are moneymakers for local jurisdictions. They fund courts. They fund probation offices. They fund public defender offices. They fund prosecutor offices. Some counties and municipaliti"}
{"id": "681606995", "date": "2019-01-02", "guest": "Alexandra Natapoff", "title": "'Punishment Without Crime' Highlights The Injustice Of America's Misdemeanor System", "question_index": 9, "text": "In your book, you write that you were a federal public defender in Baltimore from 2000 to 2003. And one of the things you learned from the people you represented there was that there was a very messy calculation of punishment - trying to decide, like, whether to plead guilty or pay a fine or you know. Give us a sense of what that calculation of punishment is when you're facing a misdemeanor charge and you don't have much money.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We've recently learned through lawsuits and through police officers speaking out that many police departments rely on quotas - sometimes formal, more often informal - pressures on police officers to p"}
{"id": "681606995", "date": "2019-01-02", "guest": "Alexandra Natapoff", "title": "'Punishment Without Crime' Highlights The Injustice Of America's Misdemeanor System", "question_index": 10, "text": "So in terms of lack of resources, among the things you're mentioning is the resource of time, that public defenders don't have enough time to represent all the clients that they're supposed to be representing, and judges don't have time to hear all the cases they're supposed to be hearing. So what are the consequences of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I learned an enormous amount from the people that I represented in Baltimore - listening to their stories, meeting them and their families and hearing how they grappled with the challenges of facing a"}
{"id": "681606995", "date": "2019-01-02", "guest": "Alexandra Natapoff", "title": "'Punishment Without Crime' Highlights The Injustice Of America's Misdemeanor System", "question_index": 11, "text": "My guest is Alexandra Natapoff, author of the new book \"Punishment Without Crime: How Our Massive Misdemeanor System Traps The Innocent And Makes America More Unequal.\" We'll talk more after a break, and Lloyd Schwartz will review a new recording of Stravinsky's \"The Soldier's Tale\" made by Roger Waters, co-founder of the rock band Pink Floyd. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The lack of resources in the misdemeanor system is one of the great challenges to the integrity of that process. And the reason that there's a lack of time is because the case loads are so enormous. T"}
{"id": "681606995", "date": "2019-01-02", "guest": "Alexandra Natapoff", "title": "'Punishment Without Crime' Highlights The Injustice Of America's Misdemeanor System", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Alexandra Natapoff, author of the new book \"Punishment Without Crime: How Our Massive Misdemeanor System Traps The Innocent And Makes America More Unequal.\" She's a professor of law at the University of California Irvine and, before that, was an assistant federal public defender in Baltimore. When we left off, she was describing how people accused of misdemeanors who don't have extra cash on hand face a backlogged justice system with public defenders who don't have adequate time or resources to properly defend their clients, so the clients are often encouraged to take a plea whether or not they're guilty. You mentioned that part of the misdemeanor system is often referred to as meet them and plead them, so, you know, lawyers encourage - often encourage their clients to just like plead guilty and get it done with. So if you decide to take the conviction and you take the plea, what are the consequences of that? Now you have a record.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The lack of resources in the misdemeanor system is one of the great challenges to the integrity of that process. And the reason that there's a lack of time is because the case loads are so enormous. T"}
{"id": "681606995", "date": "2019-01-02", "guest": "Alexandra Natapoff", "title": "'Punishment Without Crime' Highlights The Injustice Of America's Misdemeanor System", "question_index": 13, "text": "So we've talked a little bit about how the misdemeanor system penalizes the poor more than people who have money because the poor can't afford to pay bail or fines or fees. What are the fees that you're referring to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So one of the great fallacies of the misdemeanor universe is that getting a misdemeanor is no big deal, that it's just a misdemeanor, that it won't dog you for your life. And that has come to be, you "}
{"id": "681606995", "date": "2019-01-02", "guest": "Alexandra Natapoff", "title": "'Punishment Without Crime' Highlights The Injustice Of America's Misdemeanor System", "question_index": 14, "text": "So wait a minute. You're charged a fee for paying - paying for your own incarceration in jail. And you're charged a fee to have a public defender and - when the whole idea of having a public defender is that it's a free lawyer to represent you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So fees are different than fines. A fine is a punishment. It's punishment for whatever offense you are guilty of. It's typically set by statute. The judge decides how severe your fine will be as punis"}
{"id": "681606995", "date": "2019-01-02", "guest": "Alexandra Natapoff", "title": "'Punishment Without Crime' Highlights The Injustice Of America's Misdemeanor System", "question_index": 15, "text": "So I just want to make sure - I know a lot of our listeners are probably thinking, is this person arguing that misdemeanors should not be punished or that there shouldn't be misdemeanors or that everybody should just be left alone - no jail, no fees or fines or bail? So what are you arguing for? I mean, you want reform, but you're not arguing to do away with the misdemeanor system.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's hard for people to really fathom just how unfairly the misdemeanor system strips poor people of their wealth, or more accurately, wealth that they don't have. One of the most infamous is "}
{"id": "681606995", "date": "2019-01-02", "guest": "Alexandra Natapoff", "title": "'Punishment Without Crime' Highlights The Injustice Of America's Misdemeanor System", "question_index": 16, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Alexandra Natapoff. She's the author of the new book, \"Punishment Without Crime: How Our Massive Misdemeanor System Traps The Innocent And Makes America More Unequal.\" We're going to take a short break and then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I'm not arguing to do away with the misdemeanor system. We need to be able to respond to low-level crimes, to low-level harms. It's not OK to take other people's stuff. It's not OK to engage in lo"}
{"id": "681606995", "date": "2019-01-02", "guest": "Alexandra Natapoff", "title": "'Punishment Without Crime' Highlights The Injustice Of America's Misdemeanor System", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Alexandra Natapoff. She's the author of the new book, \"Punishment Without Crime: How Our Massive Misdemeanor System Traps The Innocent And Makes America More Unequal.\" She's also a professor at the University of California, Irvine and a former assistant federal public defender in Baltimore. What are a couple of the reforms you would like to see in the misdemeanor system?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I'm not arguing to do away with the misdemeanor system. We need to be able to respond to low-level crimes, to low-level harms. It's not OK to take other people's stuff. It's not OK to engage in lo"}
{"id": "681606995", "date": "2019-01-02", "guest": "Alexandra Natapoff", "title": "'Punishment Without Crime' Highlights The Injustice Of America's Misdemeanor System", "question_index": 18, "text": "Are you convinced that that would not encourage people to break laws because there wouldn't be consequences or at least there wouldn't be consequences as great as there are today.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So many of the problems of the misdemeanor system flow from its sheer enormity. And there are things that we can do about that. Police could arrest fewer people. We could put less pressure on police o"}
{"id": "681606995", "date": "2019-01-02", "guest": "Alexandra Natapoff", "title": "'Punishment Without Crime' Highlights The Injustice Of America's Misdemeanor System", "question_index": 19, "text": "I want to switch topics to an earlier book that you wrote, a 2009 book called \"Snitching: Criminal Informants And The Erosion Of American Justice.\" And this book was about the government's use of criminal suspects and criminal defendants to get information in exchange for deals to get, you know, somebody to talk or to, you know, name another person who is guilty of something in return for leniency for the informant's crimes. What do you think is the problem with that kind of approach?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So many of the reasons that people are incarcerated in the misdemeanor system have nothing to do with their wrongdoing. When individuals are locked up because they can't pay a fine or a fee, it's not "}
{"id": "681606995", "date": "2019-01-02", "guest": "Alexandra Natapoff", "title": "'Punishment Without Crime' Highlights The Injustice Of America's Misdemeanor System", "question_index": 20, "text": "I know you're also concerned that somebody who is bargaining for leniency in return for information isn't necessarily telling the truth.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The problem with snitching, with the use of criminal informants, is that it is the most extreme version of a basic truth about the American criminal system, which is that ours is a system of negotiati"}
{"id": "681606995", "date": "2019-01-02", "guest": "Alexandra Natapoff", "title": "'Punishment Without Crime' Highlights The Injustice Of America's Misdemeanor System", "question_index": 21, "text": "So in light of what you just told us about what you describe as snitching, what do you think of the use of giving information in return for a more lenient sentence as is being done by the Mueller investigation and the Southern District of New York in investigating the Trump administration?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So there's some big, famous problems with the use of criminal informants. One is wrongful conviction. Informants often lie in order to get a deal. Informants also often continue to commit their own cr"}
{"id": "681606995", "date": "2019-01-02", "guest": "Alexandra Natapoff", "title": "'Punishment Without Crime' Highlights The Injustice Of America's Misdemeanor System", "question_index": 22, "text": "As good as we get, but do you think it's justified?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So in some ways, those deals and deals like them - by which I mean deals cut by wealthy, powerful, well-represented individuals in a highly scrutinized, transparent environment - are the best version "}
{"id": "681606995", "date": "2019-01-02", "guest": "Alexandra Natapoff", "title": "'Punishment Without Crime' Highlights The Injustice Of America's Misdemeanor System", "question_index": 23, "text": "Alexandra Natapoff, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think time always will tell whether a particular criminal deal is justified or not. And that's a matter for democratic debate. We will know, eventually, what the government learned as a result of th"}
{"id": "681606995", "date": "2019-01-02", "guest": "Alexandra Natapoff", "title": "'Punishment Without Crime' Highlights The Injustice Of America's Misdemeanor System", "question_index": 24, "text": "Alexandra Natapoff is the author of the new book \"Punishment Without Crime.\" She's a professor of law at the University of California, Irvine. Here's something surprising in the music world. Roger Waters, co-founder of the rock band Pink Floyd, has made a new recording of Stravinsky's \"The Soldier's Tale.\" Lloyd Schwartz will review it after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks so much for having me."}
{"id": "682168487", "date": "2019-01-04", "guest": "Amos Oz", "title": "Remembering Israeli Author And Peace Activist Amos Oz", "question_index": 0, "text": "Do you see that as standing for a kind of generalization in the larger scheme of things?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, on the surface, they could not be more different - conflicting and contradicting each other. Alec is cool, intellectual, masterly, a very domineering tyrant of an intellectual character. Michel "}
{"id": "682168487", "date": "2019-01-04", "guest": "Amos Oz", "title": "Remembering Israeli Author And Peace Activist Amos Oz", "question_index": 1, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was afraid this was coming."}
{"id": "682168487", "date": "2019-01-04", "guest": "Amos Oz", "title": "Remembering Israeli Author And Peace Activist Amos Oz", "question_index": 2, "text": "I know that you don't want to see your fiction as symbolic of the state of Israel. But do you see your fiction as playing a role in the political dialogue of your country, since in much of your writing, you address issues of the country?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, if Herman Melville would have written \"Moby Dick\" in South Africa, it would be immediately taken for a fable about whites and blacks. In Latin America, they would read \"Moby Dick\" as a fable"}
{"id": "682168487", "date": "2019-01-04", "guest": "Amos Oz", "title": "Remembering Israeli Author And Peace Activist Amos Oz", "question_index": 3, "text": "What kind of commentary?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. In a sense, everything that I've written so far is set in Israel. And in the broadest sense, it is political, though not political in a partisan way. You see, Israel is the only country in the wo"}
{"id": "682168487", "date": "2019-01-04", "guest": "Amos Oz", "title": "Remembering Israeli Author And Peace Activist Amos Oz", "question_index": 4, "text": "I want to ask you about \"A Perfect Peace\" for a moment. That's a previous novel of yours. And it's in - it's set on a kibbutz. And it's, in a way, about two different generations - a father, who has a kind of democratic ideal for the kibbutz, and a son, who is very disillusioned with it and, basically, wants out. He wants more freedom. He wants more independence. And it's also about newcomers to Israel and to the kibbutz.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, some people misunderstood it for a simple, partisan manifesto, pro or anti the peaceniks or the extremists, which it was not. Most sensible readers realize that much like Israel itself, this is "}
{"id": "682168487", "date": "2019-01-04", "guest": "Amos Oz", "title": "Remembering Israeli Author And Peace Activist Amos Oz", "question_index": 5, "text": "Now, how did that play out in your life once you were on the kibbutz?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "682168487", "date": "2019-01-04", "guest": "Amos Oz", "title": "Remembering Israeli Author And Peace Activist Amos Oz", "question_index": 6, "text": "You had mentioned before that when you went to live on the kibbutz, that your father was very, very upset with you. Did you ever reconcile that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was an outsider myself. I came to the kibbutz, as you have mentioned, at the age of 14 and had an outsider's reception, including its difficulties and harsh niches. But when the book was publi"}
{"id": "682168487", "date": "2019-01-04", "guest": "Amos Oz", "title": "Remembering Israeli Author And Peace Activist Amos Oz", "question_index": 7, "text": "To respect each other and accept you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. After I've published a couple of books, which happened shortly before he died, he sort of realized that I was not entirely wasting my life on his terms. So we did compromise in the end. And compr"}
{"id": "682168487", "date": "2019-01-04", "guest": "Amos Oz", "title": "Remembering Israeli Author And Peace Activist Amos Oz", "question_index": 8, "text": "I hate to stretch us into a metaphor. But I guess that's, in a way, what your stand is on Israel in general - I mean, on Israeli politics - more acceptance.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To respect and accept the differences between the two of us."}
{"id": "682168487", "date": "2019-01-04", "guest": "Amos Oz", "title": "Remembering Israeli Author And Peace Activist Amos Oz", "question_index": 9, "text": "You know, I think a question that has obsessed you personally and in your fiction is why Israel didn't develop into the most egalitarian, creative society in the world...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I am a great believer in compromising. I think the only alternative to compromising is fight to the death on any front, on any level."}
{"id": "682168487", "date": "2019-01-04", "guest": "Amos Oz", "title": "Remembering Israeli Author And Peace Activist Amos Oz", "question_index": 10, "text": "...Which is what the original vision was. What are some of the reasons that come to your mind?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "682168487", "date": "2019-01-04", "guest": "Amos Oz", "title": "Remembering Israeli Author And Peace Activist Amos Oz", "question_index": 11, "text": "Israeli novelist Amos Oz is my guest. You are one of the founders of the group Peace Now. Yes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "First of all, I don't believe in magnanimous dreams coming true. Every fulfillment of a dream or of an ambition is bound, destined, to be partial, especially because Israel was founded on such a shaky"}
{"id": "682168487", "date": "2019-01-04", "guest": "Amos Oz", "title": "Remembering Israeli Author And Peace Activist Amos Oz", "question_index": 12, "text": "You've pointed out that Israeli doves aren't pacifists. And, in fact, you've fought in two wars yourself in '67 and in '73. Was it a hard decision for you to fight being a dove yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I'm guilty of that. Yes."}
{"id": "682168487", "date": "2019-01-04", "guest": "Amos Oz", "title": "Remembering Israeli Author And Peace Activist Amos Oz", "question_index": 13, "text": "How were you changed personally by the Six-Day War?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a harsh experience but not a hard decision. And I'd fight again and again if it would be a matter of life and death for the nation. I would not fight, though, for any other cause. I would not f"}
{"id": "682168487", "date": "2019-01-04", "guest": "Amos Oz", "title": "Remembering Israeli Author And Peace Activist Amos Oz", "question_index": 14, "text": "I guess what I'm wondering, too - I mean, you're someone who's really spoken out for reconciliation with the Arabs. And once you fight in a war against a group of people, it's - you really see them as the enemy. And I should think it would be harder after a war experience to think about reconciliation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In '67, the very first hours of the actual fighting, my men and I had some mortar fire shot at us from a nearby hill by Egyptian soldiers. My immediate first gutsy response was, call the police. Those"}
{"id": "682168487", "date": "2019-01-04", "guest": "Amos Oz", "title": "Remembering Israeli Author And Peace Activist Amos Oz", "question_index": 15, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, if you mean by reconciliation some Dostoyevsky end scene of long-lost brothers..."}
{"id": "682168487", "date": "2019-01-04", "guest": "Amos Oz", "title": "Remembering Israeli Author And Peace Activist Amos Oz", "question_index": 16, "text": "You know, just as the state of Israel is young, so, of course, is Israeli literature. And I would imagine that there's something very exciting about writing literature that's so new, if you know what I mean. And, I mean, it's not only the state of Israel but this body of literature in Hebrew because in English what we're reading is translations which you've worked on with a translator. But is that an exciting thing to be part of a new literature?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Hugging each other, saying, oh, brother, how could I do a terrible thing to - such a terrible thing to you. Would you ever forgive me? - then you are right. To me, reconciliation means a political "}
{"id": "682168487", "date": "2019-01-04", "guest": "Amos Oz", "title": "Remembering Israeli Author And Peace Activist Amos Oz", "question_index": 17, "text": "One thing that I can imagine would be frustrating is that a lot of a lot of Jews around the world like to read Israeli novelists. And writing in Hebrew, most Jews outside of Israel don't speak Hebrew, so they wouldn't be reading the novel in the language it was written in. Is that frustrating for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To call it exciting is an understatement, especially as the literature is not exactly new. It's new in one sense. And it's a renewal of one of the most ancient literatures in the whole of civilization"}
{"id": "682168487", "date": "2019-01-04", "guest": "Amos Oz", "title": "Remembering Israeli Author And Peace Activist Amos Oz", "question_index": 18, "text": "Well put, right", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. It should be frustrating for them."}
{"id": "682168487", "date": "2019-01-04", "guest": "Amos Oz", "title": "Remembering Israeli Author And Peace Activist Amos Oz", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. It should be frustrating for them."}
{"id": "682168487", "date": "2019-01-04", "guest": "Amos Oz", "title": "Remembering Israeli Author And Peace Activist Amos Oz", "question_index": 20, "text": "Have you been able to write or work during the last week?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We have been through many wars in our life. We have been through fighting. I've been on the battlefield myself. This combination of gas and Jewish state certainly hits a chord and touches a nerve. And"}
{"id": "682168487", "date": "2019-01-04", "guest": "Amos Oz", "title": "Remembering Israeli Author And Peace Activist Amos Oz", "question_index": 21, "text": "What do you do as a traveling lecturer for the army?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very little. I try to keep some working routine, but I do a part-time job for the army as a traveling lecturer. And it's very difficult to concentrate."}
{"id": "682168487", "date": "2019-01-04", "guest": "Amos Oz", "title": "Remembering Israeli Author And Peace Activist Amos Oz", "question_index": 22, "text": "What have you been talking about for the past few days?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just talk about current events to groups of reservists."}
{"id": "682168487", "date": "2019-01-04", "guest": "Amos Oz", "title": "Remembering Israeli Author And Peace Activist Amos Oz", "question_index": 23, "text": "Are there subjects or opinions that the military asks you to stay away from?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Trying to explain the historical perspective of the conflicts. How did we get to this point? And what might follow once this is resolved? And what is the actual connection between the Israeli-Arab con"}
{"id": "682168487", "date": "2019-01-04", "guest": "Amos Oz", "title": "Remembering Israeli Author And Peace Activist Amos Oz", "question_index": 24, "text": "When you're talking with the troops about that, what kind of dialogue gets going? What kind of response do you get?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, definitely not. The only thing I am restricted - or I restrict myself from is party politics. But they all know that I'm a leading dove and one of the leaders of the Peace Now movement. This is no"}
{"id": "682168487", "date": "2019-01-04", "guest": "Amos Oz", "title": "Remembering Israeli Author And Peace Activist Amos Oz", "question_index": 25, "text": "And then what do you say?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mixed, of course. Some people are angry not only with Saddam Hussein, some people are angry with the entire outside world. Why are they always so harsh on the Jews? Why are they only sympathetic with "}
{"id": "682168487", "date": "2019-01-04", "guest": "Amos Oz", "title": "Remembering Israeli Author And Peace Activist Amos Oz", "question_index": 26, "text": "Do you think that the war is uniting or dividing Israel now? Is it having a unifying or divisive effect?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I say, look, this goes beyond emotions. And Israel should take it as a compliment that, say, public opinion makers in several countries have much higher moral expectations from Israel than they "}
{"id": "682168487", "date": "2019-01-04", "guest": "Amos Oz", "title": "Remembering Israeli Author And Peace Activist Amos Oz", "question_index": 27, "text": "Tell me what your plans are for the rest of the day. Are you going to go outside today?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This war is uniting Israel. There is no disagreement over the viciousness of Saddam Hussein. There is no disagreement over the type of desired solution. And the Palestinian question, which has been th"}
{"id": "682168487", "date": "2019-01-04", "guest": "Amos Oz", "title": "Remembering Israeli Author And Peace Activist Amos Oz", "question_index": 28, "text": "Why did your parents move to Israel in 1933?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. We're listening back to Terry's interviews with acclaimed Israeli writer and activist Amos Oz, who died last week at the age of 79. Now we're go"}
{"id": "682168487", "date": "2019-01-04", "guest": "Amos Oz", "title": "Remembering Israeli Author And Peace Activist Amos Oz", "question_index": 29, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, presenting the question this way suggests that they went to a travel agency and looked for a country where to live."}
{"id": "682168487", "date": "2019-01-04", "guest": "Amos Oz", "title": "Remembering Israeli Author And Peace Activist Amos Oz", "question_index": 30, "text": "I think, you know, a lot of Jewish people who grew up in, say, the 1950s and whose grandparents immigrated closer to the turn of the century - immigrated to America from Eastern Europe, you know, fleeing the pogroms - these grandparents often didn't want to talk about the, quote, \"old country.\" They were - for whatever reasons, whether it was painful memories or the pain of having to leave home and leave family behind, a lot of grandparents just wouldn't talk about it. Now, your parents loved the Europe they left behind - not loved the persecution but missed that Europe. Did they talk to you much about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were virtually kicked out of Europe by violent anti-Semitism in Eastern Europe and the rising of Nazism in Central Europe. No other country wanted them at that time. There was no kind of list of "}
{"id": "682168487", "date": "2019-01-04", "guest": "Amos Oz", "title": "Remembering Israeli Author And Peace Activist Amos Oz", "question_index": 31, "text": "How did your parents describe the meaning of Israel to you when you were growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Never. They censored it the same way people censor an unrequited love from their children. You don't discuss with someone who dumped you when you were younger - someone whom you loved and dumped you. "}
{"id": "682168487", "date": "2019-01-04", "guest": "Amos Oz", "title": "Remembering Israeli Author And Peace Activist Amos Oz", "question_index": 32, "text": "And?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in the 1940s, Israel was still a dream, a vision and a blueprint. They talked about the impending creation of a Jewish state in messianic terms. This state, which is about to be born, will be pu"}
{"id": "682168487", "date": "2019-01-04", "guest": "Amos Oz", "title": "Remembering Israeli Author And Peace Activist Amos Oz", "question_index": 33, "text": "Can you talk a little bit about your parents' sense of what it meant to them to be Jewish?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the morning after is a disappointment by definition. I maintain that the only way to keep a dream - not only a Zionist dream, any dream, a sexual dream, a sexual fantasy. The only way to keep an"}
{"id": "682168487", "date": "2019-01-04", "guest": "Amos Oz", "title": "Remembering Israeli Author And Peace Activist Amos Oz", "question_index": 34, "text": "Now, you describe the Hebrew language as being at the crux of the Israeli heritage or the Jewish heritage. What language did your - what languages did your parents speak to each other and to you in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, both of them were secular. None of them was a synagogue goer. Even my grandparents were very secular. I am a third - at least a third generation of secularized Jews for whom being Jewish is firs"}
{"id": "682168487", "date": "2019-01-04", "guest": "Amos Oz", "title": "Remembering Israeli Author And Peace Activist Amos Oz", "question_index": 35, "text": "Did your parents know Hebrew before they moved to Israel?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Now, here's a comedy. They would speak between them Russian and Polish for me not to understand. Ninety-five percent of the time, they wanted me not to understand what they were speaking about because"}
{"id": "682168487", "date": "2019-01-04", "guest": "Amos Oz", "title": "Remembering Israeli Author And Peace Activist Amos Oz", "question_index": 36, "text": "Now, you talked about how your parents spoke in the languages of their countries to protect you from the subjects that they were talking about when they were talking about the pogroms in Europe or the Holocaust in Germany. What were some of the fears that you grew up with living in Israel during the Holocaust?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes, they both had a Hebrew - Hebraic upbringing in secular Zionist schools in Ukraine and Lithuania respectively, yes."}
{"id": "682168487", "date": "2019-01-04", "guest": "Amos Oz", "title": "Remembering Israeli Author And Peace Activist Amos Oz", "question_index": 37, "text": "Did you live in a state of fear? Did you have a lot of nightmares?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In the 1940s, I grew up in the shadow of an unpronounced horror. And the horror was that which was happening to the Jews in Europe, mass murder by the Nazis, is going to repeat itself in Jerusalem eit"}
{"id": "682168487", "date": "2019-01-04", "guest": "Amos Oz", "title": "Remembering Israeli Author And Peace Activist Amos Oz", "question_index": 38, "text": "What was it like for you watching Holocaust survivors come to Israel and seeing the state that they were in and just sensing what they had lived through, what they had narrowly survived?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was a subterranean fear. You have to imagine a city under siege. You have to imagine a town where British curfew used to be imposed at 7 pm almost every night. You have to imagine a city where th"}
{"id": "682168487", "date": "2019-01-04", "guest": "Amos Oz", "title": "Remembering Israeli Author And Peace Activist Amos Oz", "question_index": 39, "text": "Was that the general attitude?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What I am ashamed to tell - but I detail this in \"A Tale Of Love And Darkness,\" so I have to repeat it in this interview. We looked down at those survivors. We thought of them as sissy, weak people, w"}
{"id": "682168487", "date": "2019-01-04", "guest": "Amos Oz", "title": "Remembering Israeli Author And Peace Activist Amos Oz", "question_index": 40, "text": "What are your memories of Israel's Independence Day? You write that your father told you to take it all in because this is something you'd be talking about to your children, to your grandchildren.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, we're listening back to Terry's interviews with Israeli writer and activist Amos Oz, who died last week at age 79."}
{"id": "682168487", "date": "2019-01-04", "guest": "Amos Oz", "title": "Remembering Israeli Author And Peace Activist Amos Oz", "question_index": 41, "text": "This is the first time you've written about your mother's suicide. She was, I think, 38. When she died, you were about 12 1/2. You say she'd never really taken to life in Israel. Why not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. This was a euphoric night for me. I was about a 9-year-old when the General Assembly of the United Nations, then in Lake Success, resolved by a two-thirds vote to divide Palestine into two sovere"}
{"id": "682168487", "date": "2019-01-04", "guest": "Amos Oz", "title": "Remembering Israeli Author And Peace Activist Amos Oz", "question_index": 42, "text": "There is an element of mystery here. I mean, you print a letter that you got later from one of your mother's friends. And the letter said, if you only knew how much your mother wanted to be an artist, to be a creative person from her childhood. If only she could see you now. And why didn't she manage it? Maybe in a personal conversation I could be more daring and tell you things that I don't dare put in writing. What do you think that was?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think her years in Jerusalem felt like exile for her. She didn't like the climate. She didn't like the atmosphere. She didn't like the company. And she was forever grieving for her hometown in the U"}
{"id": "682168487", "date": "2019-01-04", "guest": "Amos Oz", "title": "Remembering Israeli Author And Peace Activist Amos Oz", "question_index": 43, "text": "Is...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it was her deep disappointment from the fading away of life. She grew up with an intensely romantic manual. In this manual, she was supposed to grow up into a pianist or maybe a poet. Sh"}
{"id": "682168487", "date": "2019-01-04", "guest": "Amos Oz", "title": "Remembering Israeli Author And Peace Activist Amos Oz", "question_index": 44, "text": "Amos Oz, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a book for compassion and forgiveness."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Well, you're so lucky to have found in James Gandolfini someone who has such an interesting face to watch. And his face is kind of mercurial. I mean, although, I'm sure he's trying not to betray what he's thinking, you can see what he's thinking on his face. And sometimes, he looks very weak and vulnerable. And sometimes, he's incredibly cold-blooded-looking. You've cast at the center of this series someone who is a very charismatic actor. But he's not a leading man kind of looking actor. He's got a pot belly, receding hairline, pudgy face. It's not Al Pacino.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Tony) Goodnight, baby."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 1, "text": "There's something very average-guy-looking about him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I - if the - it's - I always go for the actor. If the actor who came in to read for this part had been Cary Grant and it had worked, I probably would have said, fine. Let's do that. But we didn't."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 2, "text": "Edie Falco plays the role of Carmela. What did you tell Edie Falco about the character of Carmela after you cast her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it's more than that. I think - I don't think he is that average. I think there's a - I think he's a very, very sensitive - hyper-sensitive man. And I think he reflects his environment in a very, v"}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Was Carmela...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nothing, absolutely nothing - just comes in, does her work."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Well, when you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No direction, honest to God - no direction, no nothing."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 5, "text": "When you wrote the character of Carmela, Tony's wife, did you base it on any of the people who you knew from the old neighborhood where you grew up? - because you grew up in the same township that \"The Sopranos\" is set in.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's the case with most of these actors. There's very little directing going on."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 6, "text": "When I say town, I should say...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Right. But it..."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 7, "text": "In what way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When you say the old neighborhood, I think people probably get the idea of sort of, like, stoops and three-story, you know, brownstone houses. I grew up in the suburbs. And that's where \"The Sopranos\""}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 8, "text": "It seems to me that \"The Sopranos\" started off with a little bit more comedy and that it's become just more tragic for the characters as time goes on.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview from the year 2000 with David Chase, creator of \"The Sopranos.\" The influential HBO drama series premiered 20 years ago this week."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 9, "text": "You don't see it that way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know. People have said that, and I didn't realize that. I don't see it that way, so it's really difficult."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Let's hear a scene between Tony and his psychiatrist, Dr. Melfi, from about three episodes from the end of last season. And this gets a little bit to what you're talking about. This conversation isn't about Tony's mother. It's about who Tony is and the kind of problems he's responsible for of his own volition in, you know, in the work that he's doing and in the crimes that he's committing. So here's Tony with Dr. Melfi.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't. There was - we had a plan for Tony's emotional growth or lack of growth throughout the first season. The idea of carry-over from the first season was, OK. Based on what we seem to remember ab"}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 11, "text": "The scene from \"The Sopranos\" - my guest is the creator and executive producer of the series, David Chase. Where does that scene take us in the development of Tony?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Dr. Melfi) They have time to think about their behavior, how what they do affects other people, about feelings of emptiness and self-loathing haunting them since childhood. And they crash."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Do you ever hear from people who are in the mob and watch the series and comment one way or another?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was intended to be building toward some sort of conclusion or some kind of self-awareness on Tony's part that he - that it's no longer - you can no longer blame your parents, your mother. You"}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not directly. There are people who work on the show in New York who know people who know people who know people. And the word has filtered back through that pipeline that - the first season what w"}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 14, "text": "When you are growing up, where there movies that really scared the heck out of you, but you couldn't take your eyes off of them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I want to be quick to assure them. No, it is not at all. I mean, we make up a lot of this stuff. And it's interesting that it happens to coincide with what they feel is real life."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 15, "text": "What was it that was so scary?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, of course. Yes. As I said, I was a scaredy kid. And yet horror movies and scary movies to me were - I could not get enough of them. I think a pretty big influence on me was this William Wellman mo"}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, David Chase, it's been a real pleasure. Thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know to this day - just the idea - those people's expectations in the house. It's actually making me kind of sad. I don't know - their expectations of what was going to happen and what really "}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Jackie and Carmela are both very tough, and they have a real mouth when they need it. But Jackie lives in the world of work. You know, she is a nurse, and she's a very excellent one. And Carmela lived in the world of suburban mobster wives.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli in for Terry Gross. Today we're saluting the hugely influential TV series \"The Sopranos,\" which premiered on HBO 20 years ago this week. We've already heard from"}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 18, "text": "How did you talk differently in each of those roles - and walk differently? Carmela was almost always wearing heels, and she had that little high-heeled mincing walk that she'd use.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 19, "text": "And Jackie is - like, she is busy at the hospital, and she is, like, striding around.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 20, "text": "You know, so it's really a different walk.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Because of those really long nails?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, any woman knows when you put sneakers on, you walk one way. You put heels on. You walk another way. And also Carmela's nails were a whole thing too - that she could never really touch anyt"}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So I always - that somehow had something - like, when I've looked at it, it seems like my hands were always up, like at the - bent at the elbows, almost like the nails would hit something if she"}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Is it a relief not to be dressing in Carmela's clothes but rather...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So that was a big part of it, too, being her - that she was somehow protected by armor from her whole environment in one way or another, you know, internally and externally."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 24, "text": "...To just be wearing a blue nursing uniform a lot of the time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Well, that was another reason for choosing this show, to be honest with you, was the low maintenance version of it 'cause the whole Carmela get-up was very time-consuming. And in the beginning, i"}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 26, "text": "It's much longer now", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, you know, it's..."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, you know, it's..."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 28, "text": "Why did it take so long to become - to physically become Carmela before the shoot each day?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it is. It is."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 29, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm closer to her than Carmela. I'm a very low-maintenance individual myself. So I would go into the trailer on \"Sopranos,\" and I'd be in there for two hours between the hair curling and straightening"}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 30, "text": "So were they fake nails?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 31, "text": "Oh, right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were fake nails. I glued them on every day."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 32, "text": "So you and Carmela from \"The Sopranos\" had similar problems - teenage kids who were rebelling, talking back to you, which I suppose is pretty typical.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 33, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, well..."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 34, "text": "Right. And you've both tried - you know, both characters have tried tough love in ways that aren't necessarily very effective.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was going to say Jackie, Carmela and every mother I've ever heard of - yes."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 35, "text": "So you have two children, aged 9 and 6. Can you imagine saying any of the things that Jackie or Carmela have said to their teenagers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 36, "text": "What's an example of something that you've said that's really surprised you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". My own reactions to things, my children's reactions to my reactions - they kind of are otherworldly. There is very little that brings out more deep-seated stuff than the parent-child relationship, I"}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 37, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "out of my bed, I will throw you down the stairs."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 38, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My son looked at me wide-eyed and went back into bed. And then in the morning, he said, did you say, last night, that you were going to throw me down the stairs? And I - I was, like, blushing. I said,"}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 39, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm like, Anderson, I am sorry; I'm not responsible for what I say at 3 in the morning when I'm not getting sleep. So anyway, yes, it's really insane what happens under dire circumstances, lack of sle"}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 40, "text": "You know what I was wondering? One of the defining traits of Carmela, Tony Soprano's wife, is that she is in such denial. I mean, she knows what she wants to know when she needs to know it. And when she doesn't need to know it and wants to deny it, she doesn't know it. So she really knows that Tony is, you know, the head of the mob in his part of Jersey.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2014 interview with Edie Falco. She co-starred as Carmela Soprano, the wife of Tony Soprano, in HBO's \"The Sopranos,\" which premiered 20 years ago this wee"}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 41, "text": "But she knows just - she doesn't know the specific details of, like, who he's beaten up or who he's ordered killed or who...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 42, "text": "...He's extorting. But, you know, she gets the gist of it. But, you know, she acts very innocent about it unless she...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 43, "text": "...Wants to intimidate somebody. And in that case, like, her husband's Tony Soprano; do you know who he is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 44, "text": "But anyways, I was wondering if you almost protected yourself from watching some episodes so that you wouldn't know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 45, "text": "...Or Carmela wouldn't know about the actual acts of brutality that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 46, "text": "...Tony was responsible for or, you know, the person himself who was doing the killing or the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wow."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 47, "text": "...Or the brutal...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 48, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had never thought of that. That's actually highly possible. I was aware more about - I didn't want to see him with other women."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 49, "text": "I think Carmela might've been that way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was the part that I found harder to - that Edie found harder to see. There was no way - I couldn't let it get into my system in a way that would bother me. It gets very complicated this stuff - y"}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 50, "text": "Well, you couldn't...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 51, "text": "You couldn't watch any of it because Tony was with a woman in just about every episode", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 52, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 53, "text": "You're in for some heartbreak", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hey, I still haven't watched them, so don't tell me."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 54, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hey, I still haven't watched them, so don't tell me."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 55, "text": "Well, your characters used to fight a lot. And I thought I'd play an example of one of the fights. And this is a session, your first session, with Tony's therapist, Dr. Melfi, who's played by Lorraine Bracco. And you're there with Tony to, you know, talk about his anxiety attacks. And of course that ends up in a big fight.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "you know, whatever, 10 years later, I'm still in denial."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 56, "text": "So here's the scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "you know, whatever, 10 years later, I'm still in denial."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 57, "text": "That's a scene from \"The Sopranos\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Holy mackerel."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 58, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Holy mackerel."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 59, "text": "...With my guest, Edie Falco, and James Gandolfini and Lorraine Bracco. What was it like for you to listen to that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wow."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 60, "text": "You were saying earlier that when you would have a fight with one of - a fight in character with one of your children on \"The Sopranos,\" when the scene was over, you'd give them a big hug just so that they knew the difference between your real feelings about them and Carmela's anger at their character.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my gosh, so bizarre. It's like another life, another lifetime, a lifetime ago. I had a million thoughts. But I forgot how good the writing is and how funny it is and how much dimension each of the"}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 61, "text": "So when you would have a big fight with Tony, which you would do frequently on \"The Sopranos,\" would you and James Gandolfini express your genuine appreciation and respect for each other afterwards?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 62, "text": "Not necessary because you're adults?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 63, "text": "Were you particularly sad when he died that you never got to know him as a man?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not at all. We're adults. Yeah, we're adults. And also - I said before also that Jim and I were - we didn't know each other all that well, really. We didn't socialize much. And I - it was not on purpo"}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 64, "text": "What was your audition like for \"The Sopranos?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, that's a complicated question. Gosh, I don't know. I mean, I love Jim very much, but we both had very, very full lives on different sides of the country. And the nature of this business that"}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 65, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was at the Mayflower Hotel on Central Park West, which I think is gone now, I guess. And I was very busy at the time. And I was told that it was an audition for a thing called \"Sopranos\" (ph), and "}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 66, "text": "Artie Bucco has the Italian restaurant that they hang out in.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", and it was David Chase and - oh, gosh - a couple other people. Johnny Ventimiglia, who ended up playing Artie Bucco, was reading the part of Tony Soprano. And, I mean..."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 67, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 68, "text": "So you grew up on Long Island in New York. Describe your neighborhood.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. And he was reading the part of Tony in the audition. And a couple other people were there, but I don't remember quite so well. And I went in, and I just did exactly what I knew this character"}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 69, "text": "So earlier, you said you were a goody two-shoes when you were young.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I grew up on the South Shore originally, down in West Islip. And the neighborhood was all kids my age. And as I have said recently - that I don't remember having shoes on for much of my childhoo"}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 70, "text": "You were just beating up the boys in the neighborhood", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, I was - I didn't do any bad stuff. I didn't - I wasn't..."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 71, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, I was - I didn't do any bad stuff. I didn't - I wasn't..."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 72, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, they would - they said - all right. They'd say - what was the expression? I call you out. And it was like, you want to call me out, you're going to get it. And I sent one kid to the hospit"}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 73, "text": "So you do have some really tough -", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But yeah. But I was goody two-shoes."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 74, "text": "tough inner core there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But yeah. But I was goody two-shoes."}
{"id": "684435199", "date": "2019-01-11", "guest": "Lorraine Bracco", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 20th Anniversary Of The Premiere Of 'The Sopranos'", "question_index": 75, "text": "Well, Edie Falco, it's just been great to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I suppose I do. I suppose I do. Yeah, from my early, early days - but I also did my school work. And I, you know, was a good kid. I never - I wasn't particularly rebellious at all, actually."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 0, "text": "Because you've talked to everybody about their genealogy, I want to talk with you about yours and what you've learned about yourself and the larger meaning of what you've learned about yourself. And I want to start with the person who got you started in genealogy. It was really, like, the photograph of her - of your great-great-aunt Jane Gates. And you've...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 1, "text": "Great-great-grandma, I mean.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Great-great-grandma."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 2, "text": "Yeah. Thank you. So I want to read something that you wrote about her. And you got this from the 1870 census - (reading) that Jane Gates, age 51, female, mulatto, laundress and nurse, owns real estate valued at $1,400; born in Maryland; cannot read or write. Now she was born in 1819; died in 1888. You were 9 years old when you found her picture.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 3, "text": "And you got this information from the 1870 census. So reading this - that she's a mulatto; she'd been a slave - the first question that comes to my mind - and I don't know if it was the first question that came to yours - was, was she raped by the man who owned her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 4, "text": "Is that too personal? It's a horrible way to start, in a way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can't believe you asked this question because..."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 5, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the average African-American..."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 6, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The average African-American is 24 percent European. Now think about that. And most DNA companies in the United States will tell you that they have never tested an African-American who is 100 percent "}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 7, "text": "OK. So let's get back to your great-great-grandmother.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Which was illegal in Mississippi. They lived together. They had kids, and they're buried next to each other."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 8, "text": "So you assume it was not a consensual relationship, but she managed to own her own home five years after being freed from slavery.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 9, "text": "How do you do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For which she paid cash. So you..."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because of this white man. You don't get $1,400 by saving your nickels and dimes as a slave, right?"}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 11, "text": "That's amazing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So obviously somebody gave her that money. She paid cash for that house in what was largely a white neighborhood. And our family - my cousin, Johnny Gates (ph), still owns that house to this day. It w"}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 12, "text": "Very impressive.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Register in Maryland. Isn't that a cool thing? But I saw that photograph and read her obituary on the day that we buried my father's father, Edward St. Lawrence Gates. And the obituary said, died t"}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 13, "text": "Oh, really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I go, yeah, I got a brother who's a dentist, you know? OK. So we went - my father showed us that picture and that obituary, and we went home. And the last thing I did before I went to bed was - we alw"}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 14, "text": "And who is he?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. My great-great-grandfather's now been found."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 15, "text": "OK. On your mother's side, you found out that you had three men in the family who were freed slaves - freed before 1776. And they fought in the Revolutionary War. And consequently, you are now a member of the Sons of the American Revolution.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We know he was Irish from my DNA. I have the Ui Neil Haplotype. You get your Y DNA from your father, and that's what makes me a man. And you don't have a Y DNA, so that's why you're a woman. And my Y "}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 16, "text": "It's amazing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, isn't that a hoot?"}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 17, "text": "That's really interesting. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's incredible."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 18, "text": "But when I think about your ancestors fighting in the Revolutionary War and then...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's really interesting."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 19, "text": "Just one. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just one. John Redman."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 20, "text": "And then your slightly more contemporary ancestors not having any rights in the country, you know, or very few rights - not being able to vote, having to live in segregation. It's just - when you think about American history...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 21, "text": "...It's mind-boggling. I mean, like, my - I'm second-generation American.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's mind-boggling."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 22, "text": "Yeah. And when my grandparents came as immigrants, my family was able to assimilate pretty easily because we're white. You know, and your family was, one of them anyways, was in the Revolutionary War.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, you are?"}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 23, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And think about it. They - but you're absolutely right. Even if you were free and you were black..."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 24, "text": "OK. So you found out that your ancestors were, like, 18 miles away from where you lived.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...In most states, you weren't allowed to vote. In some states - like, New York would let them vote sometimes, and then take it away. And then it was a property requirement. It was a horrible, horribl"}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 25, "text": "But you also wanted to know who were your African ancestors.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 26, "text": "So when you had your DNA done, did you have a wish for a certain area of Africa or a certain group of African people who you wanted to be your ancestors?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 27, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. No one's ever asked me that, but the answer's yes because I studied with a person who has been on your show, Wole Soyinka, the Nigerian playwright, when I went to the University of Cambridge. He"}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 28, "text": "So you're not Yoruba.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "admixture, I'm 50 percent sub-Saharan African and 50 percent European and virtually no Native American ancestry, which really pisses my family off."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 29, "text": "Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But then they did another special test. And I cluster more toward the Yoruba than any - because 50 percent..."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 30, "text": "So given this kind of really rich mix that you've just described and all the surprises that you've just described, what does race mean to you? What is race? Does race exist?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. And we're listening to Terry's interview with Henry Louis Gates. They spoke in front of an audience last May when Gates received WHYY's annual Lifelong Learning Award. The fifth sea"}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 31, "text": "Have you been medically DNA tested?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But race is..."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 32, "text": "Do you know - do you want to know your medical DNA?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Huh?"}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 33, "text": "Whoa.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my father and I were the first father and son of any race and the first African-Americans fully sequenced. In 2009, when I did \"Faces Of America,\" a retail value of full genomic sequencing was $30"}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 34, "text": "So you know your medical background and if you're...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And because it was PBS, we negotiated a deal with this company Illumina which sequences everybody. For $50,000, they sequenced my father, me and then 12 of the guests who were in \"Faces Of America\" - "}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 35, "text": "Right. Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, I'll tell you a funny story. I told them that I did not want to know if I had any of the sort of - I don't know - the slam-dunk genes for Alzheimer's disease."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 36, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And they said, OK, we won't tell you. And so then they came in - this is a big deal back in 2008. And we filmed the whole thing. They had two geneticists. They had a medical doctor who specializes in "}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 37, "text": "Right, right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And my father lived to be 97 1/2 without any dementia. So I thought that I had a pretty good chance. So what I did - my father and I agreed, for science, that we'd put our genomes in the public domain"}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 38, "text": "So having done your, like, ancestry and everything, were you close to your parents?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I'm totally exposed. That's the way it is."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 39, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Was I close to them?"}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 40, "text": "Your father died not too long ago - a few years ago. He was 97, as you said.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So then I became close to them but in two completely different ways."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 41, "text": "Because you knew so much about your family history and because the day you got interested in your family history was the day your grandfather died...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 42, "text": "...Was that reflected in the way you wanted to say goodbye to your father at the funeral?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 43, "text": "My grandfather, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, I try to - doing \"Finding Your Roots\" is a way to paying homage to my mother and father every year. It's - remember, it's - my father dragged my brother and me upstairs in his parents'"}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 44, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Your grandfather."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 45, "text": "But it's making me think of how much death figured into your formative thoughts - the death of your grandfather, which led you to see the picture of your great-great-grandmother, everybody's deaths through your mother memorialized in those obituaries.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And my mother went to Atlantic City. And we have a wall of degrees at home. And I have my mother's certificate from this vocational school where she learned to be a seamstress. And she was a beautiful"}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 46, "text": "Yeah. That's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's true. So you're saying I should have been an undertaker. There we go."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 47, "text": "That was my next question. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's true. So you're saying I should have been an undertaker. There we go."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 48, "text": "So I want to change the subject a little bit. People might remember the Beer Summit, when you were stopped in your own home trying to unjam a lock after a long trip. And your driver was helping you - well, he was shoving his shoulder against the door trying to open it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 49, "text": "He knocked it down. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he knocked the door down."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 50, "text": "And it was reported as if it was a break-in, and a police officer came and arrested you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Right."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 51, "text": "Huge story. And it really kind of deepened the racial divide in America, with everybody taking sides because...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He arrested me. Yes, he did."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 52, "text": "...The officer was white.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For two..."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 53, "text": "OK, for two weeks. But then President Obama called you both together. And he, and you, the officer and Joe Biden sat down, had a beer or two. It's called the Beer Summit.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For two weeks. Yeah. Right."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 54, "text": "And I read you talking about this. You said that after - you had been getting death threats and these angry emails and everything. After that, everything stopped.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 55, "text": "And it made me think about - because I was just reading this - it made me think about how a president can set the tone for the country on so many things, including, you know, racial issues, immigration. I think you know where I'm heading here. So", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right after the Beer Summit, it all went away."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 56, "text": "given the example that President Obama set in calming down that kind of argument in America over you and this officer, what do you hear now coming from our president?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right after the Beer Summit, it all went away."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 57, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was on \"The View.\" And one of the, you know, wonderful people on \"The View\" said did I think that Donald Trump is racist. I said, well, I've never met Donald Trump. And I think that we throw t"}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 58, "text": "There's some people who are trying to use genealogy to out people who are white supremacists and say, oh, you think you're so pure white, that that's such a big deal?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. We're listening to the interview Terry recorded with Harvard historian, author and filmmaker Henry Louis Gates before an audience at WHYY in Phi"}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 59, "text": "Let's look at your ancestry and see who's really in it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 60, "text": "And it's a way of outing people as not being who they think they are and not recognizing that we're all descended from so many different people. But the ancestry is being investigated against the will of the people being outed. What do you think of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 61, "text": "I think they're doing it through records and not through, like, secretly getting their blood samples.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that you should have the right to - you have to ask someone. You have to get permission. The only reason people..."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 62, "text": "But - yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh. No, but it - or..."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 63, "text": "Oh. Oh, right. Right, right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Now, we don't do blood anymore, right? We'd spit in a test tube."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 64, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But everyone who's in one of those databases has given some kind of permission."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 65, "text": "Right. Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Otherwise they wouldn't be in a database. But I think that you should have to get permission before someone is creeping around in your DNA."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 66, "text": "So I want to squeeze in one more question.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Don't you? But I think that one of the mottos of finding your roots is that there is no such thing as racial purity, that these people who have fantasies, these white supremacists, of this Aryan broth"}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 67, "text": "When you were 14, you had a football injury. And I don't know if that ruined your sports career forever, but it affected your leg forever.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 68, "text": "I've interviewed many people over the years. And I've learned that a lot of artists and writers and scholars, at some period in their life, were sick or physically laid up for an injury or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My sports career was ruined before..."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 69, "text": "Yeah. And they stayed home, and they read. Or they stayed home, and they drew. Or they stayed home, and they listened to or played music. And I'm wondering if being laid up from an injury for a while affected your desire to - and your time to immerse yourself in books.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, interesting."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 70, "text": "Were you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was bookish from the beginning."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 71, "text": "Whoa. That's a long time when you're young.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I gave it to my mother once. I found the first edition when I was an adult. And I gave it to her for birthday. And she burst into tears because she used to read me that book all the time. And my f"}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 72, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I was 15 years old. And that is a long time. And by in traction, I mean on my back with my foot up with weights."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 73, "text": "You had a broken hip?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They don't do that anymore for this particular kind of - I had a broken hip. It was just misdiagnosed. And..."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 74, "text": "Yeah, yeah, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And I was in the hospital for six weeks. And it's just crazy. And a doctor from the Philippines taught me to play chess at West Virginia University Medical Center in Morgantown, W.Va. And he'd c"}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 75, "text": "Did you watch old movies on TV?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Our TV - when we woke up, the TV was on, and nobody ever turned it off until you went to sleep. And I watched reruns of early black films like \"Amos 'n' Andy\" and \"Beulah.\" All that was on still in 19"}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 76, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I loved them."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 77, "text": "Oh, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And we - they only put - remember \"The Late Show\"?"}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 78, "text": "But you had family that passed for white.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'll never - I love you, Mama. I love you. I love you being black. I'm going to be black."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 79, "text": "You had family that passed for white.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 80, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 81, "text": "I saw his picture in the obituary. He looked white.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Gateses all looked - my father looked white."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 82, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I have an announcement to make..."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 83, "text": "Oh, you're kidding", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...For you. In front of all these people and all these viewers. I'm here to ask, on behalf of our production staff, if you will be a guest in next season..."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 84, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...For you. In front of all these people and all these viewers. I'm here to ask, on behalf of our production staff, if you will be a guest in next season..."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 85, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Of \"Finding Your Roots.\" Yeah. Would you do it?"}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 86, "text": "All right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Got you."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 87, "text": "I can't - stunned.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She can't even talk."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 88, "text": "Totally stunned. I regret we are out of time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry Gross speechless - first time in 35 years."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 89, "text": "It has been a great honor to speak with you. Thank you so much for accepting this award. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. I can do it. This is FRESH AIR."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 90, "text": "...Thank you for all of all of the things you've written for your TV shows, for your movies. Thank you for being you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "686531998", "date": "2019-01-21", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Historian Henry Louis Gates Jr. On DNA Testing And Finding His Own Roots", "question_index": 91, "text": "Terry Gross interviewed Henry Louis Gates last May when he was in Philadelphia to accept the WHYY Lifelong Learning Award. Gates is the host of the TV genealogy series \"Finding Your Roots.\" Terry will be one of the guests whose family history is explored next year in the sixth season of the show. The fifth season of \"Finding Your Roots\" is currently showing on PBS. Coming up, journalist Brian Palmer talks about how slavery and the Civil War are described at Confederate historic sites in the South. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 1, "text": "That's the sound of the San Quentin prison door slamming as my guest Earlonne Woods was released in late November after being incarcerated there for seven years. The sound was recorded because he's the co-host and co-producer of the podcast Ear Hustle, which features interviews with San Quentin inmates talking about daily life there, things like living with a cellmate in a tiny cell, what it's like to be in solitary confinement, the heartbreak of being a parent separated from your child, how everything inside is separated by race and so on. The podcast title, Ear Hustle, is prison slang for eavesdropping or being nosy. Woods was convicted of attempted second-degree robbery but because of the three-strikes law was sentenced to 31 years to life, most of which was served in prisons other than San Quentin. Governor Jerry Brown commuted his sentence in November, and Woods regained his freedom after serving 21 years of his sentence. Also with us is Nigel Poor. She co-created the podcast with Woods and has co-hosted and co-produced it with him. Poor is a professor of photography at California State University in Sacramento. She first started working at San Quentin in 2011 as a volunteer in the Prison University Project, teaching the history of photography. Before creating the podcast, Woods and Poor did interviews with inmates in San Quentin for public radio station KALW in San Francisco. Earlonne Woods, Nigel Poor, welcome to FRESH AIR. Earlonne, congratulations on life outside of prison. So before...", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 2, "text": "...We talk about the podcast and before we talk about your work together, Earlonne, I want to talk with you about life outside. After you got out of San Quentin, you and Nigel went to the governor's mansion. And Jerry Brown was then the governor of California.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 3, "text": "And - so you interviewed him about commuting your sentence.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 4, "text": "And you thanked him for doing it. And I want to play what he said to you. So this is...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 5, "text": "...Governor Jerry Brown.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 6, "text": "That was Governor Jerry Brown interviewed by my guests Earlonne Woods and Nigel Poor. So Earlonne, let me ask you about ways you think you've changed since you were a teenager and were first put in prison. And you've had two separate stays, and the last one lasted 21 years.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It all goes to this point that something very bad happens, and people will say, OK, now we're putting you in jail for a very long time. And the assumption is that what you did at that moment is what y"}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 7, "text": "So you know, you're a middle-aged man now. So what are some of the ways...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 8, "text": "Yeah. What are some of the ways you think you've changed over the years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Forty-seven years old."}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 9, "text": "Wait; so that means, like, you'd rather die than be...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think - so I'll say this. My first prison term, I went to jail when I was 17. And I was paroled when I was 23, about to turn 24. And when I went to prison, it was pretty much the California De"}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 10, "text": "...Tried and put in prison.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd rather die than go to jail."}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 11, "text": "Who - give us an example of somebody who you spoke to who had been a victim of a crime similar to the one that you committed that made you feel this, you know, sense of feeling bad for what you'd done.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes. And when it actually happened, it was a - it was an awakening in me, like, oh, I don't - why is we living this way, you know? Why we living like we don't care - because this is somehow how w"}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 12, "text": "So can I ask you an honest question? What's it like to not think about that? What's it like to not care about the person who you're robbing or the person who might be killed by a stray bullet? In some ways, like, I find it hard to understand that somebody, like, wouldn't have any empathy for the victim and wouldn't care.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I'll give you example. This lady - her name was Claire. And it was one of the restore justice symposiums. It was transformational symposiums. And her son had attended a party. He had just became a "}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 13, "text": "A job because you thought it was, like, your only source of income?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the mentality is more of crime to you is a job. The victims of a crime are faceless. You're not really looking at the person. You're more looking at what you're getting out of the situation. L"}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 14, "text": "So this gets back to something you were just saying. I mean, there's two likely outcomes if you're robbing drug dealers. One is that you're going to get killed, and the other is that you'll eventually go to jail. You were OK with that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, me growing up the way I grew up, I grew up in a lifestyle where I was young when I got into selling drugs, and I was - I was real young. I probably was like 14. And then I got into the lifestyle"}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 15, "text": "You're on the radio", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "..."}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "..."}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 17, "text": "Well, why don't we take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more? If you're just joining us, my guests are Earlonne Woods and Nigel Poor, the co-hosts and co-producers of the podcast Ear Hustle, which features interviews with men incarcerated in San Quentin Prison about their daily lives and their personal stories. And Earlonne just had his sentence commuted by Governor Jerry Brown in November after serving 21 years. And Nigel is also a professor of photography at California State University. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm on the radio. But you look back, and you're looking at it like, I've wasted, like - I can say right now, I'm 47 years old. I've spent a total of 27 years in prison. So I've technically only been f"}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guests are Earlonne Woods and Nigel Poor. They're the co-hosts and co-producers of the podcast Ear Hustle, which features interviews with men incarcerated in San Quentin about their daily lives and their personal stories. Nigel is a professor of photography at Cal State. She started going to San Quentin to volunteer teaching photography. Then she started doing interviews, and then they started working together co-producing a radio show and then the podcast. Earlonne, until the end of November, was a prisoner. And at the end of November, Governor Jerry Brown commuted his sentence. So do you think a lot about the fact that if Jerry Brown wasn't governor, and if another governor didn't share Jerry Brown's view...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm on the radio. But you look back, and you're looking at it like, I've wasted, like - I can say right now, I'm 47 years old. I've spent a total of 27 years in prison. So I've technically only been f"}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 19, "text": "...That people can change and that you should look at the person and not just the crime - that you'd still be in prison, I mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 20, "text": "Nigel, let me bring you into the conversation. So, Nigel, when you decided you wanted to start, like, a interview series that started on KALW - the public - one of the public radio stations in San Francisco, and then it became a podcast - you wanted a co-host and co-producer who was incarcerated in San Quentin.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. No, and I laugh because had Governor Brown probably not been the governor, I would still have 10 years of my sentence left. I'd still be sitting in San Quentin in a cell with my brother. And th"}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 21, "text": "And you chose Earlonne. And you've said in the past that he was always the quietest person in the room, but you could tell he was a good observer. So what - what were the first communications like in which you tried to see, but is he a good interviewer? Or is he a good talker? Is he a good co-host?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 22, "text": "Nigel, when you first started volunteering in San Quentin, what were some of the things you had to deal with as a woman teaching in a prison of men?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "so..."}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 23, "text": "My guests are Nigel Poor and Earlonne Woods, the creators and hosts of the podcast Ear Hustle about life inside San Quentin Prison. Earlonne was an inmate as well as a host. His sentence was commuted by Governor Jerry Brown in November. Nigel is a professor at California State University. After a break, we'll hear and talk about excerpts of two episodes of Ear Hustle, one about a death that was devastating for Earlonne, the other about an interview that raised serious ethical questions for Nigel. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm so glad you asked about this. OK. So I was nervous at first to go in because, I mean, my head was full of all the images that, you know, of - from bad TV, bad movies, bad media about what prison w"}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Earlonne Woods and Nigel Poor, the creators and hosts of the podcast Ear Hustle, featuring interviews with prisoners in San Quentin about their lives and what it's like to be incarcerated. Earlonne was not only one of the co-hosts, he was one of the men incarcerated until his release in late November after California Governor Jerry Brown commuted his sentence. He had served 21 years of a 31-years-to-life sentence. Now Earlonne will be doing interviews with people like him who are transitioning back into society. Nigel is a professor of photography at California State University in Sacramento. She'll continue to do interviews inside San Quentin. Earlonne, I want to ask you about the final podcast you recorded in San Quentin, which was largely about your older brother, Trevor, and your nephew, Tyler. Trevor has done 14 years of a 36-year sentence. Your nephew, his son, Tyler, was born in 1994. At the time, your brother and your nephew's mother, Tyra, were living what you describe as a life of crime together. Trevor was wanted and was on the run. Tyra got arrested first for kidnap and robbery. Tyra got arrested first for kidnap and robbery, and she was sentenced to 17 years. And then Trevor was arrested when their son, Tyler, was 10. Tyler was sent to live with extended family. So you recorded interviews with Trevor and Tyra talking about how difficult it is to maintain a relationship with your child when you're incarcerated and how difficult it is to help them stay out of trouble. And so I want to play an excerpt of that. And Trevor, your brother, speaks first.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm so glad you asked about this. OK. So I was nervous at first to go in because, I mean, my head was full of all the images that, you know, of - from bad TV, bad movies, bad media about what prison w"}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 25, "text": "OK, so that was a little more than five years ago that Tyler was killed. Earlonne, tell us a little more about what happened to Tyler, how he was killed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They told me that my son was murdered - well, killed. And I hit the floor."}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 26, "text": "So we heard a little bit through your interview of how your brother, Tyler's father, and Tyra, his mother, reacted to the news...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So on November 19, Tyler and his auntie and some other lady went to 7-Eleven to get a pack of cigarettes. It was like 2 in the morning. They had left the auntie's house. And on their way back to the a"}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 27, "text": "...That Tyler was killed while they were in prison. And your brother is still in San Quentin. What was your reaction when you found out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 28, "text": "Oh, in between prison sentences.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was devastating because I had - one, I had just talked to Tyler, like, probably the day before. And, you know, we was clowning on the phone. But to hear the very next day that he was killed - and m"}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 29, "text": "So Tyler's father, your brother, is still in San Quentin during the final year that you were in San Quentin. He was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In between prison - when I got out - Tyler had just been born in '94. And I got out in '95. And, you know, I pretty much raised - because my brother was locked up. I pretty much raised Tyler from '95 "}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 30, "text": "...Your cellmate.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 31, "text": "Are you going to go back and visit him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 32, "text": "Oh, I didn't know that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not no time soon, no. No. So right now there would be a problem with me going back to see him because I'm currently on parole. Usually, you can't go back into a correctional facility on parole. You ha"}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 33, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guests are Earlonne Woods and Nigel Poor, the co-creators of the podcast Ear Hustle. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, so that's cool. You know, they get to see each other in passing."}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 34, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. My guests are Earlonne Woods and Nigel Poor, the co-creators of Ear Hustle, a podcast featuring their interviews with men incarcerated in San Quentin. Earlonne was both co-host and inmate. But he was released in November after his sentence was commuted by California Governor Jerry Brown. Nigel first went to San Quentin as a volunteer teaching photography. Nigel, I want to play an excerpt of an episode that you were very prominent in. And I'm playing this because it's about knowing where the line is when you're interviewing prisoners and sometimes to have to ask something that's going to make them uncomfortable. There's a story you did about how people like you from the outside who come in to volunteer - because you started at San Quentin volunteering teaching photography before you started doing the podcast Ear Hustle. So there's a rule that pertains to the volunteers who come in, and they're not allowed to have, like, close relationships with the prisoners, anything that gets really intimate or emotional. And I'm not even talking about physically intimate, but just emotionally intimate is against regulations. But apparently it's fine - like, if you fall in love, the prisoner and the volunteer fall in love, that's fine as long as the volunteer or the staff person is no longer going to be working there in any capacity. So you're interviewing a prisoner who - he and one of the volunteers fell in love, and so she stopped working there in any capacity, and they got married. Eventually, the marriage fell apart. But after you recorded that interview, you found out something about him and decided, like, you could not play that interview unless you asked him another question. And so I want to play the part where you return to ask him that difficult question. So here's Nigel Poor, co-host and co-producer of the podcast Ear Hustle.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, so that's cool. You know, they get to see each other in passing."}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 35, "text": "And Nigel, just as a person who's constantly interacting with inmates at San Quentin, do you want to know what they're incarcerated for, what crime they were convicted of? Or would you just as soon not know and just judge them based on what they present to you in their interactions with you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I don't feel you're being unfair at all, and I don't ultimately know what my hesitancy is. So on December 7, 1994, I murdered my ex-girlfriend, the mother of my now-25-year-old daughter."}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 36, "text": "Earlonne, what's the custom among men in San Quentin? Do you usually know what somebody is in for and do you ask, or is that considered wrong to ask?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't ask unless it comes up as part of the story. I'd rather not know. I'd rather deal with anyone, actually, as they are in front of me at that moment. But the things that you do in your past do a"}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 37, "text": "So something I found really interesting is that the group that is multicultural and not segregated by race or ethnicity is the group that's into, like - the nerds, the group that are into, like, sci-fi fantasy and stuff like that. And, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I think that goes into, like, what they call politics in prison and where, you know, you may have certain prisons that it matters what you're in prison for like - and it's a difference on a race le"}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 38, "text": "They're called sevens.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 39, "text": "Those are your partners.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My partners. Those are my partners."}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 40, "text": "What?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 41, "text": "So their...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is - they see something that I can't see. I don't think I have the vision to see it."}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 42, "text": "Their brothers are the people who live in a similar world of fantasy as opposed to defining their brothers as being, you know, a skin color or ethnicity.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I love it."}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 43, "text": "Earlonne, how did you learn how to keep your calm and live in the kind of confined situation you were in during the more than two decades that you were incarcerated? You have to be able...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, right. And it's just about - you know, they accept anybody, you know? It's like - I think they're not under the constraints or the pressures to not accept people."}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 44, "text": "...To stay sane in a situation like that. And you also spent time in solitary, where it's very hard to stay sane.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 45, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guests are Earlonne Woods and Nigel Poor, the co-hosts and co-producers of the podcast Ear Hustle. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. I'll say I've - on the second term - so the first term is where I did all the solitary stuff. But on the second term after - once you receive a life sentence, there's no guarantee that you'll e"}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 46, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. My guests are Earlonne Woods and Nigel Poor, the co-hosts and co-producers of Ear Hustle, a podcast featuring their interviews with men incarcerated in San Quentin. Earlonne was both host and inmate, but he was released in November after his sentence was commuted by California Governor Jerry Brown. Nigel first started going to San Quentin as a volunteer teaching photography. Can I ask how your relationship is changing now that you're both outside?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. I'll say I've - on the second term - so the first term is where I did all the solitary stuff. But on the second term after - once you receive a life sentence, there's no guarantee that you'll e"}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 47, "text": "You had to make sure...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In prison, Earlonne always had to wear blue. And I always wore black."}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 48, "text": "Yeah. So I want to ask you each to choose one thing that you would like to change in the system of - in the prison system or in mass incarceration. And, Earlonne, since you served so much time, let's start with you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hey, I'm trying."}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 49, "text": "And you basically just described your own situation when you were incarcerated because you got 31 to life for attempted second-degree robbery.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I, personally, would like to eradicate California's three strikes law because I think that there's a lot of people that's sentenced under this law, which everybody thinks is 25 to life. No, people get"}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 50, "text": "Did I get that right? Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct."}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 51, "text": "And that was because - you got such a long sentence because one crime had you convicted on two counts, so that counted as two strikes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct, yeah."}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 52, "text": "Nigel, what about you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct."}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 53, "text": "And you're describing Ear Hustle.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I would like to see more programs created that allow people inside and outside to work together as colleagues. And I think it would help demystify a lot of the assumptions that people have about"}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 54, "text": "Yeah", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Isn't that funny?"}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 55, "text": ". Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Isn't that funny?"}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 56, "text": "Oh, I think it also means that you're doing things based on what you've learned from...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Earlonne described himself, and I described myself. I don't know. Does that mean we're self-absorbed?"}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 57, "text": "...Personal experience, so yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 58, "text": "I want to thank you both so much. And, Earlonne, again, I want to thank - I want to congratulate you again for your new freedom. And, Nigel and Earlonne, I want to wish you good luck with the retooled version of Ear Hustle now that Earlonne is out. I look forward to hearing...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 59, "text": "...The new, as yet, unannounced host will be with you", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much."}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 60, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much."}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 61, "text": "And, Earlonne, I look forward to your interviews with people who, like you, are transitioning back into society from prison. Thank you both so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it's very exciting."}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 62, "text": "Earlonne Woods and Nigel Poor are the co-creators, co-producers and co-hosts of the podcast Ear Hustle, which features interviews with men incarcerated in San Quentin. Earlonne Woods was released from San Quentin in November after his sentence was commuted by Governor Jerry Brown. Nigel Poor is a professor of photography at California State University in Sacramento.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "687674246", "date": "2019-01-23", "guest": "Earlonne Woods", "title": "Host Of The Prison Podcast 'Ear Hustle' Reflects On His 27 Years Behind Bars", "question_index": 63, "text": "Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, my guest will be writer Sigrid Nunez. Her latest novel \"The Friend\" won the National Book Award for fiction and is about to be published in paperback. It's about a writer whose friend and former mentor kills himself. She inherits his dog, a 180-pound Great Dane, who, like her, is grieving. I hope you'll join us. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our senior producer today is Roberta Shorrock. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our associate producer for digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Therese Madden directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 0, "text": "Sigrid Nunez, welcome to FRESH AIR. I want to start with a reading from your novel. And this is from very early on, when the main character has recently learned that her friend has committed suicide and is reflecting on, like, why.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies in for Terry Gross, who's away today. We're going to listen to Terry's interview with Sigrid Nunez, who won the National Book Award for Fiction last November for her"}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 1, "text": "There was Sigrid Nunez reading from her novel \"The Friend,\" which comes out in paperback February 5 and won the National Book Award for Fiction. So this novel has a lot to do with suicide and trying to understand why somebody did it. Have you lost someone to suicide?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) Because of the timing, so near the start of the year, it was possible to think that it had been a resolution. One of those times when you talked about it, you said that what would stop you w"}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 2, "text": "How did that person take their life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I have. I have. And before I started writing this book, one of the main reasons why I wanted to write about suicide was because I realized that I knew quite a few people who had the idea of suici"}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 3, "text": "And what did it make you think about thinking of the way that person chose to end it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He jumped from the Golden Gate Bridge."}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 4, "text": "It must hurt for you to think about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I actually think that when people make that decision, it's such a mystery. In fact, I don't think it's so easy to understand what is on people's minds when they actually attempt the suicide. I do know"}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 5, "text": "When a friend of yours talks about the temptation of suicide, what do you say? Do you say - you know, do you try to talk them out of it? Do you try to just listen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Certainly. And, you know, he did not - I was not in touch with him right before he killed himself, and there was no note. So I really don't know exactly what his thoughts were. Now, he was somebody wh"}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 6, "text": "Another issue that your novel deals with is relationships between professors and students, specifically, between male professors and female students and the attraction that can form between them. The main character is a woman, and the character who kills himself - her very dear friend - had been her college professor years ago. And they even had a brief affair after he told her they should try sleeping together because, he said, we should find that out about each other. And she says, I don't think it ever occurred to either of us that I might refuse. And then he tells her that it's not really going to work out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I try to just listen. My friend who jumped from the bridge, suicide was something he talked about all the time, and the different ways that he might do it. Also when you know that somebody is feeling "}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 7, "text": ". And she's kind of devastated, but they remain good friends. He marries three times. They remain good friends throughout all those marriages. She's never quite sure what the wives feel about their relationship. And he tells her, to be a teacher is to be a seducer. And there are times when he must also be a heartbreaker. Have you heard men say that about teaching, that to be a teacher is to be a seducer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I try to just listen. My friend who jumped from the bridge, suicide was something he talked about all the time, and the different ways that he might do it. Also when you know that somebody is feeling "}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 8, "text": "It strikes me as such a male thing. Like, I don't think women teachers, women professors, see themselves that way, unless you're talking about seducing people into learning. But I don't think women teachers see themselves as wanting to flirt and maybe go to bed with their students. I'm not saying all men do, either, but I think it's, over the years, been more a common thing for men than for women?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have. I have. And I believe in this case, he is paraphrasing something that was said by George Steiner. Yes. If not in those words - or let's just put it this way. If not in words, in some cases, th"}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 9, "text": "Seductive in the literal sense of, like, I'm going to try to convince you to sleep with me or just seductive at a...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that might be true, but I do think that women, female mentors and women in positions of power, do indeed have that same feeling. They might not carry it all the way through, but wanting to seduc"}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 10, "text": "...Distance. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 11, "text": "I was going to say, just to put that in context, when you were in your 20s, I think...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Both, both. It would depend on the person. But Sontag used to talk about that, about her - how when she had any kind of affection or strong feeling for anyone, she always also wanted to sleep with tha"}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 12, "text": "You were a couple with David Rieff, Susan Sontag's son. She, at the time, was diagnosed with cancer. You were both living with Susan Sontag. She became a friend and mentor to you. And you got to see her at her best and her worst.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 13, "text": "OK. Have you ever felt like a seducer as a teacher yourself? - because you've taught in different settings. I mean, you've taught literature and writing in colleges. You've taught English as a second language, so - and you've taught over the years. So you've seen issues about, you know, power in the classroom change over the years.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 14, "text": "What do you think would have been different?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've never - no, I've never had that - I've never had any kind of issue come up, even, you know, remotely connected to that. You know, it's been helpful to me that I didn't start teaching until I was "}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 15, "text": "Why don't we take a break here? And then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is writer Sigrid Nunez. Her latest book is the novel \"The Friend,\" which won the National Book Award for Fiction and is about to be published in paperback February 5. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think I might've been more susceptible. And I think that anybody could be."}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Sigrid Nunez. And her latest novel \"The Friend\" won a National Book Award for Fiction in late 2018. And now \"The Friend\" is about to be published in paperback February 5. As you've said, you've seen the rules of conduct in the classroom change. It's against the guidelines in most places now to have a relationship with a student - you know, a sexual relationship with a student. And you've also said you know, in the past, marriages that have worked out really well between a professor and the student. And the one I think of immediately is poet Donald Hall and poet Jane Kenyon. And she was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think I might've been more susceptible. And I think that anybody could be."}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 17, "text": "...First his student. And then they - you know, they had a long marriage.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 18, "text": "But, probably, the more common thing is closer to inappropriate. You know what I mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And I can't think of any names right now, any couples. But there are many, many of them like Donald and..."}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 19, "text": "Like, there have been some great marriages and relationships that have come out of that and some, also, are, like, real damage and inappropriate things. How have you seen the rules change? Like, your character has to attend sexual misconduct classes and learn what the new rules were. So how have you seen the new rules change? And how have you reacted to it as a woman?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And I can't think of any names right now, any couples. But there are many, many of them like Donald and..."}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 20, "text": "What year are we talking about, about when you were in college?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, we all take those courses now in universities and colleges as soon as you start teaching. There's an online course about sexual misconduct, so trying to make everything as clear as possible. And i"}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 21, "text": "And then there's the question like in - if you're not supposed to talk about sexually related subjects in class, when you're teaching a writing workshop, which is what you do, and you're encouraging people to write openly and sex is a part of life and sexual thinking is a huge part of young people's lives, do you make that subject off-topic? Do you make that subject taboo for writing in class? How do you talk about it if it's not taboo for writing in class? Have you thought about that a lot?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this would have been - I graduated from Barnard in '72 and from Columbia in '75 - the MFA program. But I'm not just talking about school. I'm talking about men in positions of power after that a"}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 22, "text": "Is that a relief to you", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have. I have no idea what other writing instructors do. But, in fact, it turns out, in my experience, not to be a problem because the students do not write about sex. They are either too shy or afra"}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 23, "text": "as the teacher?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have. I have no idea what other writing instructors do. But, in fact, it turns out, in my experience, not to be a problem because the students do not write about sex. They are either too shy or afra"}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 24, "text": "The story in \"The Friend\" - the narrator is a woman whose mentor from college, who was close to her age, became a dear friend. And he has just committed suicide. She's left grieving and wondering why. And she also inherits his dog. And it's not just, like, any dog. It's a 180-pound Great Dane. And she lives in a small, rent-controlled apartment", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, sitting in for Terry Gross. Let's get back to Terry's interview with author Sigrid Nunez. Her latest novel \"The Friend\" won the 2018 National Book Award for Fiction"}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 25, "text": "in New York. And it's illegal - it's against the regulations to have a dog in that apartment. So she kind of violates the regulations, takes the dog kind of reluctantly. And they become very close. And they're both grieving. The dog is grieving, too. But as you've said, you can't describe death to a dog. You can't explain death to a dog.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, sitting in for Terry Gross. Let's get back to Terry's interview with author Sigrid Nunez. Her latest novel \"The Friend\" won the 2018 National Book Award for Fiction"}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 26, "text": "She walks the street with the dog. You know, she talks the - takes the dog on walks as, of course, you have to. Because the dog is so big, she feels like she's a spectacle", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's something that has struck me well before I started writing this book, how difficult that is, really, because, you know, there the dog is at home. As far as the dog knows, everything is fi"}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 27, "text": "when she's on the street with the dog. And everybody's, like, stopping and wanting to do a selfie or asking how much he eats or how much he defecates", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's something that has struck me well before I started writing this book, how difficult that is, really, because, you know, there the dog is at home. As far as the dog knows, everything is fi"}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 28, "text": ". And she's kind of, you know - I think she feels, like, partly, her privacy is being invaded, but partly, just, like, amused by the whole thing. But it connects to something larger that her friend who took his life used to say, which is that - you know, he used to, like, love to walk and felt like he did his best writing while he was walking and just kind of losing himself in his thoughts and in his surroundings. But he always thought that that would be harder for a woman to do because a woman always has to be on guard. Is this guy following me? Is this guy going to grope me? Is this guy going to attack me? What about that catcall? And so I'm wondering if you've thought about that from both directions, about, you know, the difficulties of sometimes losing yourself as a woman who has to be on guard when walking the streets and the difference when you have this, like, huge dog who everybody wants to stop and admire when you're walking.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's something that has struck me well before I started writing this book, how difficult that is, really, because, you know, there the dog is at home. As far as the dog knows, everything is fi"}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 29, "text": "That's a French word", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's true that I was writing about flanerie and the flaneur, who is an urban walker..."}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 30, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's true that I was writing about flanerie and the flaneur, who is an urban walker..."}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 31, "text": "And you've walked big dogs. You've had big dogs, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes - and the mentor's idea that, you know, can there really be such a thing as a flaneurs? Can a woman be a flaneur? - because real flanerie requires that you are able to lose yourself in an urban se"}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 32, "text": "I'm guilty of being one of the people who say, how much does the dog eat? And what...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've had - well, my family had an enormous Great Dane. And, you know, I was already out of the house by then. But I did walk him. And, you know, children would follow and people would say things. But "}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 33, "text": "I could probably ride the dog because I literally could probably ride the dog. I mean, I'm so short, I could...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 34, "text": "I could really probably do it. I know people who won't get a pet after their beloved pet has died because they feel like they can't go through that grieving process again. And it reminds me of people who won't remarry because they can't bear the thought of losing a second spouse.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 35, "text": "Do you have pets now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I get a lot of emails from those people, too - a lot. You know, they have lost a pet. And it's been overwhelming to them. And very many of them say, I don't know if I could get another one or if "}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 36, "text": "Because of the grief.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I don't. I had two cats. And they grew to be quite old. And they both died. And it was when the second one died that, again, I was one of those people who was so overwhelmed. And I have not been a"}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 37, "text": "How did the cat die?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, largely because of that, just not wanting to go through all that again. But there was something about the way that cat died and the loss of it. In fact, I do write about that in the novel that I "}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 38, "text": "Yeah. You never really know - do you? - what the cat or dog is thinking", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she was elderly. And she became very ill. And then I took her to the vet, who, you know, who agreed that she should be put down because she was so - because she would have to have surgery. And a"}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 39, "text": "about...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she was elderly. And she became very ill. And then I took her to the vet, who, you know, who agreed that she should be put down because she was so - because she would have to have surgery. And a"}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 40, "text": "...Whether it's time to end their life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 41, "text": "Yeah. If you're just joining, us my guest is writer Sigrid Nunez. Her latest book, \"The Friend,\" is a novel that won the National Book Award for fiction and is about to be published in paperback in early February. We'll be right back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. So - and that - it was just a very overwhelming experience."}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 42, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is writer Sigrid Nunez. Her latest novel, \"The Friend,\" won the National Book Award for Fiction in late 2018, and it's about to be published in paperback in early February. The novel is narrated by a woman whose longtime friend and former mentor has committed suicide. I spoke with you in 1996.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. So - and that - it was just a very overwhelming experience."}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 43, "text": "And one of the things you said is, I've never been married, and I'm not going to marry. And I said, how can you be so certain? And you said, well, there isn't anything I could have from a marriage that I don't really have. Do you still feel that way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 44, "text": "Because...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I never did marry, just as I said. And that isn't something that I've regretted. I think at the time, what I was referring to also was that I was with someone. I was in a relationship. We were l"}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 45, "text": "I think it was in your first book that you wrote, time and time again, I discover that I have not completely let go of the notion that salvation will come in the form of a man.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't - I've just - I do not - I have not shared that desire and need that so many people seem to have. I just - I've - you know, when I was very young - when I was a teenager, I think I had, you kn"}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 46, "text": "Do you still feel that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's true, too."}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 47, "text": "...Way, or did you give that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that - I think..."}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 48, "text": "Did you give up that feeling - yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 49, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I've given that up. I've given that up, Terry. I don't feel that way anymore."}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 50, "text": "Have you thought about the difference of being single in the latter part of your 60s where you are now compared to being single when you're younger?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 51, "text": "Why do you think it's easier?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it's - course it's much easier when you're older, I think."}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 52, "text": "Mmm hmm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To be single?"}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 53, "text": "OK, then the thought comes up, what about when you get older - if you're single then and your health fails or something?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's easier because - well, I guess it depends on what we mean. What I - I think it's very hard to be single when you're young because there's so many opportunities to not be single. You know,"}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 54, "text": "Or at least for the care.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, you mean, who's going to take you to the vet for the two injections?"}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 55, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 56, "text": "Did people used to warn you, if you don't have children, you'll regret it when you're older?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, well, it's something that - you know, it's something that people just have to face. It's certainly something that, you know, I think about and worry about. But, you know, this is what - you kno"}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 57, "text": "So is that a tradeoff you feel like you willingly made, or do you have any regrets about the choice that you made?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, and I think that that's very reasonable. I mean, as far as I'm concerned, missing having had children is enormous, is enormous. I don't - you know, I did what I had to do, or, you know, my life t"}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 58, "text": "I want to end with the quote that opens your book. It's a quote from Nicholson Baker. And the quote is, the question any novel is really trying to answer is, is life worth living? Now, it's a great quote to open a novel that has a lot to do with suicide, but does that also sum up your idea of what writers really are trying to write about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't. It's exactly that. I don't - no matter - in spite of the fact that I know exactly, you know, what a huge thing I missed, I also don't regret it because it was - you know, other women are diff"}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 59, "text": "Sigrid Nunez, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I was so struck by that quote, and I found that quote - that's from his Paris Review interview. The book was finished when I found that, and I - you know, by chance, I just happened to read the i"}
{"id": "688185092", "date": "2019-01-24", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "'The Friend' Novelist Grapples With Suicide, Grief And Student-Teacher Relationships", "question_index": 60, "text": "And congratulations on winning the National Book Award.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having me, Terry."}
{"id": "688680573", "date": "2019-01-25", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. Taps Into America's Psyche On 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Roy Wood Jr., welcome to FRESH AIR. So that bit sounds like it has a lot of truth behind it. Did you feel, when you were growing up in Alabama, like Confederate flags warned you away from places and people that spell trouble?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm so sorry. Come on through. Come on through. No, they got the wristbands. They good. Listen, put this wristband on - this one over here now. In case it go down, you're going to have that wristband "}
{"id": "688680573", "date": "2019-01-25", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. Taps Into America's Psyche On 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 1, "text": "You say you performed at strange places. Did you ever perform at a bar or a club that had a Confederate flag?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think the difference between Southern racism and Northern racism is that in the South, you know where you stand. And there's - I don't want to say a freedom in that. But when you know where th"}
{"id": "688680573", "date": "2019-01-25", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. Taps Into America's Psyche On 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 2, "text": "Why were you even booked in places that had such a kind of racist audience?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", so I can be on my way back to Birmingham. Cities like that - traditionally, my protocol was to never stay at the hotel that the venue provided. So I'd either sleep in my car, or I would stay at a - "}
{"id": "688680573", "date": "2019-01-25", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. Taps Into America's Psyche On 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Did they know that you were African-American when they booked you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "'Cause they had a microphone. I didn't care. Why should I care? Nine times out of..."}
{"id": "688680573", "date": "2019-01-25", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. Taps Into America's Psyche On 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 4, "text": "So I want to play another clip from your comedy special \"Father Figure.\" And in this, you know, you're talking about how we live in two different Americas and that when white people don't understand what African-Americans experience, it doesn't necessarily mean that the white people are racist. Sometimes it's just that the white people are uninformed. And then as an example, you talk about going to a Best Buy where you had to educate a white salesclerk. You had just bought a cellphone case.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "or hang around town too late. Like, I did a show in Johnson City, Tenn., which is a eastern Tennessee mountain town. And people would come up after the show. And there's some town - there's some neigh"}
{"id": "688680573", "date": "2019-01-25", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. Taps Into America's Psyche On 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 5, "text": "And the salesclerk told you that you didn't need a bag for it, so you had to explain why you needed the bag.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct."}
{"id": "688680573", "date": "2019-01-25", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. Taps Into America's Psyche On 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 6, "text": "That's my guest Roy Wood Jr...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And staple it to the outside. I don't want a receipt in my hand. You staple my receipt to the outside like Chinese carryout. And I'll hold it up in the air. I'll \"Lion King\" - I'll hukana matata an iP"}
{"id": "688680573", "date": "2019-01-25", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. Taps Into America's Psyche On 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 7, "text": "...On his recent comedy special \"Father Figure.\" So is that a true story? Did that really happen to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "688680573", "date": "2019-01-25", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. Taps Into America's Psyche On 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 8, "text": "I thought it was so interesting that you chose somebody to tell a story about who perceives himself as doing the right thing, as being very environmental-minded and therefore trying to not give you a plastic bag but not getting what it would mean for you to walk out without the bag and the receipt.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that happened in Seattle. And it wasn't as flagrant as I made the salesclerk out to be in the joke. But it was me very politely explaining to this guy, I don't want to walk out of here without a"}
{"id": "688680573", "date": "2019-01-25", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. Taps Into America's Psyche On 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 9, "text": "I mean, you have the receipt, but it would probably be in your pocket. And then if you reach for it, who knows how that would be interpreted?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And in that regard..."}
{"id": "688680573", "date": "2019-01-25", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. Taps Into America's Psyche On 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Can I ask you about the neighborhood you grew up in and if your parents worked, what they did for a living?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2018 interview with comic Roy Wood Jr. \"The Daily Show\" correspondent's latest comedy special, \"No One Loves You,\" premieres tonight."}
{"id": "688680573", "date": "2019-01-25", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. Taps Into America's Psyche On 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 11, "text": "All the gangbangers came.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "since I left in '96 for college, but - pretty rough neighborhood on the backside of the crack era, backside of - we moved into West End on the back end of white flight. So in the '80s, we had a couple"}
{"id": "688680573", "date": "2019-01-25", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. Taps Into America's Psyche On 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 12, "text": "But the goal was to keep you out of trouble, and all the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Bangers would come. Regular kids would come."}
{"id": "688680573", "date": "2019-01-25", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. Taps Into America's Psyche On 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 13, "text": "...Troublemakers are coming to play basketball.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, but..."}
{"id": "688680573", "date": "2019-01-25", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. Taps Into America's Psyche On 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 14, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But - so then you asked me what my father did, and here's how it ties in."}
{"id": "688680573", "date": "2019-01-25", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. Taps Into America's Psyche On 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My father was a radio personality in the city."}
{"id": "688680573", "date": "2019-01-25", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. Taps Into America's Psyche On 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 16, "text": "What kind of show did your father do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he was highly respected. My dad was a civil rights journalist back in the '60s and '70s. He was embedded - any march you can find any footage of, I'm sure my dad is no more than two or three steps"}
{"id": "688680573", "date": "2019-01-25", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. Taps Into America's Psyche On 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Wow, that's", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My father did - he did a jazz show. He did a political commentary show. But he also did morning news as well. So he was - like, on your way to work - and in these days in the '80s, you have to remembe"}
{"id": "688680573", "date": "2019-01-25", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. Taps Into America's Psyche On 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 18, "text": "- that must've been amazing. Now, you started out as a journalism student in college. Did your father inspire you to head in a journalism...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My father did - he did a jazz show. He did a political commentary show. But he also did morning news as well. So he was - like, on your way to work - and in these days in the '80s, you have to remembe"}
{"id": "688680573", "date": "2019-01-25", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. Taps Into America's Psyche On 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 19, "text": "...To a journalism career? - a goal that you did not", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "688680573", "date": "2019-01-25", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. Taps Into America's Psyche On 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 20, "text": "exactly fulfill. But...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "688680573", "date": "2019-01-25", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. Taps Into America's Psyche On 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 21, "text": "...Kind of close - I mean, you're doing \"The Daily Show.\" So there's a lot of news in that. It's just a comedy take on real news.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not really."}
{"id": "688680573", "date": "2019-01-25", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. Taps Into America's Psyche On 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did everything in my power to not be like my father..."}
{"id": "688680573", "date": "2019-01-25", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. Taps Into America's Psyche On 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 23, "text": "So you carry his name. You're Roy Wood Jr. And in Birmingham, where you grew up, your father's name really meant something. After he died, what was the significance of the name? Did people remember him for a long time? Were you still seen as his son for a long time while you lived in Birmingham?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know? And - because it's all journalism and radio. And it was cool. But I was an adrenaline junkie. I wanted to be a firefighter. And up until my father's death in my senior year of high school"}
{"id": "688680573", "date": "2019-01-25", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. Taps Into America's Psyche On 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 24, "text": "It's really been such a pleasure talking with you. Thank you so much for joining us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In Birmingham, I'll always be my father's son. That's just what it is. And there's nothing I can do to change that. You know, he was first. He was first, and he was impactful. And to be fair, he said "}
{"id": "688685987", "date": "2019-01-25", "guest": "Alan Alda", "title": "Alan Alda On 'M*A*S*H*' And His 'Tremendous Education' Growing Up In A Burlesque Club", "question_index": 0, "text": "What were your first impressions of the script?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Alan Alda in the pilot episode of \"M*A*S*H.\" When Terry Gross interviewed Alda in 1997, she asked him about that pilot."}
{"id": "688685987", "date": "2019-01-25", "guest": "Alan Alda", "title": "Alan Alda On 'M*A*S*H*' And His 'Tremendous Education' Growing Up In A Burlesque Club", "question_index": 1, "text": "Filming - filming a movie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thought it was an extremely good pilot when they sent me the pilot. I was in the Utah State Prison at the time..."}
{"id": "688685987", "date": "2019-01-25", "guest": "Alan Alda", "title": "Alan Alda On 'M*A*S*H*' And His 'Tremendous Education' Growing Up In A Burlesque Club", "question_index": 2, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Well, yes. I was trying to work on the image there a little bit."}
{"id": "688685987", "date": "2019-01-25", "guest": "Alan Alda", "title": "Alan Alda On 'M*A*S*H*' And His 'Tremendous Education' Growing Up In A Burlesque Club", "question_index": 3, "text": "I guess the thought of things turning out badly, of it not being the script that you wanted, during the Vietnam era was pretty scary. I mean, you know, a war TV series during the Vietnam era that gave a kind of high jinks on the front message probably would have made you particularly uncomfortable.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was shooting a movie for about three weeks in the Utah State Prison, and they sent me the script of \"MASH,\" and it was the best script I had read while I was in prison, certainly. But it was also th"}
{"id": "688685987", "date": "2019-01-25", "guest": "Alan Alda", "title": "Alan Alda On 'M*A*S*H*' And His 'Tremendous Education' Growing Up In A Burlesque Club", "question_index": 4, "text": "You were in the military, weren't you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it would. Yeah. It probably would have been even more so then than it would be at any other time. But I always felt strongly about wars. And I..."}
{"id": "688685987", "date": "2019-01-25", "guest": "Alan Alda", "title": "Alan Alda On 'M*A*S*H*' And His 'Tremendous Education' Growing Up In A Burlesque Club", "question_index": 5, "text": "I want to ask you about your formative years. You grew up in show business. Your father was Robert Alda, who, among other things, originated the role of Sky Masterson in the Broadway production of \"Guys And Dolls,\" played George Gershwin in the 1945 film \"Rhapsody In Blue.\" What was he doing before the movies, when you were a young boy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- you could have long discussions into the night, especially if you're a sophomore in college, about whether that's a moral thing to do. But the interesting thing about it is, I understood just from d"}
{"id": "688685987", "date": "2019-01-25", "guest": "Alan Alda", "title": "Alan Alda On 'M*A*S*H*' And His 'Tremendous Education' Growing Up In A Burlesque Club", "question_index": 6, "text": "What did you make of it, as a very young boy, watching strippers? Did you have any idea what that was about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when I was born, he was in burlesque. And I spent the first three years of my life standing in the wings watching strippers and comics and chorus girls. And it was a bizarre beginning to a life."}
{"id": "688685987", "date": "2019-01-25", "guest": "Alan Alda", "title": "Alan Alda On 'M*A*S*H*' And His 'Tremendous Education' Growing Up In A Burlesque Club", "question_index": 7, "text": "Growing up on the burlesque circuit, you must have grown up thinking that one of the most important things you could do is have a good gag, good jokes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know? But this is really interesting. And it had to make, had to have a tremendous impact on me. It was a very unusual beginning to a life."}
{"id": "688685987", "date": "2019-01-25", "guest": "Alan Alda", "title": "Alan Alda On 'M*A*S*H*' And His 'Tremendous Education' Growing Up In A Burlesque Club", "question_index": 8, "text": "Just about everyone I've ever met who grew up in the '50s or '60s was in some production or another - high school, junior high school, summer camp - of \"Guys And Dolls.\" Were you ever in a production of it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I really had a tremendous education watching the greatest comics that we had at the time - Rags Ragland, Phil Silvers, Red Buttons. All these people were - Hank Henry. He was another great burlesque c"}
{"id": "688685987", "date": "2019-01-25", "guest": "Alan Alda", "title": "Alan Alda On 'M*A*S*H*' And His 'Tremendous Education' Growing Up In A Burlesque Club", "question_index": 9, "text": "Which part was it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I was in a - not in school. I mean, it was after I was out of school that they were doing productions of it. But I got a - when I was a young, out-of-work actor, only about six or seven years af"}
{"id": "688685987", "date": "2019-01-25", "guest": "Alan Alda", "title": "Alan Alda On 'M*A*S*H*' And His 'Tremendous Education' Growing Up In A Burlesque Club", "question_index": 10, "text": "Which part?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Pardon me?"}
{"id": "688685987", "date": "2019-01-25", "guest": "Alan Alda", "title": "Alan Alda On 'M*A*S*H*' And His 'Tremendous Education' Growing Up In A Burlesque Club", "question_index": 11, "text": "Sky Masterson.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was playing my father's part."}
{"id": "688685987", "date": "2019-01-25", "guest": "Alan Alda", "title": "Alan Alda On 'M*A*S*H*' And His 'Tremendous Education' Growing Up In A Burlesque Club", "question_index": 12, "text": "Oh, no", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, Sky Masterson. And I was out in the opening scene. And I didn't - I couldn't even afford my own suit. So they loaned me a suit that had been hanging on a rack for six months someplace. And I kep"}
{"id": "688685987", "date": "2019-01-25", "guest": "Alan Alda", "title": "Alan Alda On 'M*A*S*H*' And His 'Tremendous Education' Growing Up In A Burlesque Club", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, Sky Masterson. And I was out in the opening scene. And I didn't - I couldn't even afford my own suit. So they loaned me a suit that had been hanging on a rack for six months someplace. And I kep"}
{"id": "688685987", "date": "2019-01-25", "guest": "Alan Alda", "title": "Alan Alda On 'M*A*S*H*' And His 'Tremendous Education' Growing Up In A Burlesque Club", "question_index": 14, "text": "Now, you were going to go to med school, then became, I think, an English major. What was the turning point where you said, well, forget that; it's show business?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And it was very - the sight of that cockroach brought me back to reality with such a jolt that I lost all my nervousness. And I really looked at the woman I was talking to and really talked to h"}
{"id": "688685987", "date": "2019-01-25", "guest": "Alan Alda", "title": "Alan Alda On 'M*A*S*H*' And His 'Tremendous Education' Growing Up In A Burlesque Club", "question_index": 15, "text": "And you were but just on television.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I never really wanted to go to medical school. My father wanted me to go. He always wanted me to be a doctor."}
{"id": "688685987", "date": "2019-01-25", "guest": "Alan Alda", "title": "Alan Alda On 'M*A*S*H*' And His 'Tremendous Education' Growing Up In A Burlesque Club", "question_index": 16, "text": "What kind of career did you see for yourself when you started in show business?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he was finally satisfied with that. But here's the thing. Doctors were civilians. I was in the arts. I was in show business. That was my life. That was my identity. I didn't want to do anything "}
{"id": "688685987", "date": "2019-01-25", "guest": "Alan Alda", "title": "Alan Alda On 'M*A*S*H*' And His 'Tremendous Education' Growing Up In A Burlesque Club", "question_index": 17, "text": "And do you feel like you got it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wanted to be able to work in material that I cared about. I wanted to work with actors that I respected. And I wanted to do that in front of an audience that would get it - you know, that would appr"}
{"id": "689314329", "date": "2019-01-28", "guest": "Catherine Deneuve", "title": "Remembering Academy Award-Winning Composer Michel Legrand", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're going to remember Michel Legrand, a French pianist and prolific composer of film scores and songs. He died Saturday at age 86. Over his career, which spanned six decades, Legrand won three Oscars for his music in \"Yentl,\" \"Summer Of '42\" and \"The Thomas Crown Affair.\" He also won five Grammys. I spoke with Legrand in 1996 after the release of a restored version of the film \"The Umbrellas Of Cherbourg,\" which is one of my favorite films. It's sung through, which is to say all the dialogue is sung. Legrand composed all the music. The film was written and directed by the late Jacques Demy and first released in 1964. It made a star of the young actress, Catherine Deneuve. The film tells the story of two young lovers who are broken apart when the young man, Guy, is drafted and sent to Algeria for two years. In this scene, the broken-hearted Genevieve, played by Deneuve, begs him not to leave her. He promises to love her for the rest of his life. This part of the score was adapted into a song with English lyrics called \"I Will Wait For You\" that became a hit in America.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "689314329", "date": "2019-01-28", "guest": "Catherine Deneuve", "title": "Remembering Academy Award-Winning Composer Michel Legrand", "question_index": 1, "text": "Michel Legrand, how did Jacques Demy first describe to you his idea of a movie in which all the dialogue would be sung? I'd like to know your reaction when Jacques Demy said, well, let's do it like an opera where everything is sung. Did you think, hey, what a great idea? Or did you think he was a little crazy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Guy Foucher, singing in French)."}
{"id": "689314329", "date": "2019-01-28", "guest": "Catherine Deneuve", "title": "Remembering Academy Award-Winning Composer Michel Legrand", "question_index": 2, "text": "And, yeah, it's jazz and ballads.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no, no. No, no, no, no, because Jackman wasn't a crazy man. No, no, I said, (speaking French) I think it's a good idea. We should try. And then we tried. And I couldn't fight because, you know"}
{"id": "689314329", "date": "2019-01-28", "guest": "Catherine Deneuve", "title": "Remembering Academy Award-Winning Composer Michel Legrand", "question_index": 3, "text": "Very melodic, beautiful chords also.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. But mostly it's melodic, you know, from beginning to end."}
{"id": "689314329", "date": "2019-01-28", "guest": "Catherine Deneuve", "title": "Remembering Academy Award-Winning Composer Michel Legrand", "question_index": 4, "text": "What's that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, because, you know, we have - you know, they exist, so we will have to use them."}
{"id": "689314329", "date": "2019-01-28", "guest": "Catherine Deneuve", "title": "Remembering Academy Award-Winning Composer Michel Legrand", "question_index": 5, "text": "Now, in a lot of ways, this - in a lot of ways, \"The Umbrellas Of Cherbourg,\" to me, is like if you made an ordinary life into an MGM musical, and you took the sets of an MGM musical and combined that with the gas station on the corner - what would you get? - because it takes the scenes of ordinary life and kind of elevated to the beauty of an MGM musical. Was that what you both had in mind?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The chords - I mean, you know, we have to use the chords, which are existing, so we use almost all of them."}
{"id": "689314329", "date": "2019-01-28", "guest": "Catherine Deneuve", "title": "Remembering Academy Award-Winning Composer Michel Legrand", "question_index": 6, "text": "Now, was the dialogue written first? Did Demy give you the dialogue and say, OK, now you can compose a score around it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. We wanted to do a very ordinary story - the, you know, the ordinary triangle because, you know, this beautiful young girl, she does not wait for her lover to come back, and she marries someone els"}
{"id": "689314329", "date": "2019-01-28", "guest": "Catherine Deneuve", "title": "Remembering Academy Award-Winning Composer Michel Legrand", "question_index": 7, "text": "Now, I'm wondering if it was difficult for you to set the scenes that aren't the more romantic or disillusion scenes but just the more everyday scenes. Like, in the very beginning, there's a scene where Guy, you know, the romantic lead is working at the gas station, and he's just fixed a customer's car. And, you know, Guy says finished, and the customer says it rattles a bit when the motors cold, but that's normal. That's not the typical stuff that people set to music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, because Jacques - you know, originally had written the dialogues on every scene since - you know, since the time we wanted to shoot it as a normal movie without music, without you know, singing."}
{"id": "689314329", "date": "2019-01-28", "guest": "Catherine Deneuve", "title": "Remembering Academy Award-Winning Composer Michel Legrand", "question_index": 8, "text": "Why don't we hear the music from that opening scene in the gas station where Guy has just finished working on a car?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, absolutely not. Now, this is why - and also, you know, when we decided to to start, you know, the film with jazz, with loud, you know, blaring jazz, you know, tune to really shock the people for a"}
{"id": "689314329", "date": "2019-01-28", "guest": "Catherine Deneuve", "title": "Remembering Academy Award-Winning Composer Michel Legrand", "question_index": 9, "text": "Right. And he sang it's finished to the customer whose car had just finished. OK, here it is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And, you know, it's funny because the movie starts with (speaking French) - it's finished. So we laughed. You know, Jacques and I said, we start with it's over."}
{"id": "689314329", "date": "2019-01-28", "guest": "Catherine Deneuve", "title": "Remembering Academy Award-Winning Composer Michel Legrand", "question_index": 10, "text": "That's music from the opening scene of \"The Umbrellas Of Cherbourg,\" composed by Michel Le Grand who died Saturday. We'll hear more of our 1996 interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Guy Foucher, singing in French)."}
{"id": "689314329", "date": "2019-01-28", "guest": "Catherine Deneuve", "title": "Remembering Academy Award-Winning Composer Michel Legrand", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 1996 interview with pianist and composer Michel Legrand. He died Saturday at age 86. I spoke with him after the release of a restored version of the 1964 film \"The Umbrellas Of Cherbourg.\" All the dialogue is sung. He composed all the music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Guy Foucher, singing in French)."}
{"id": "689314329", "date": "2019-01-28", "guest": "Catherine Deneuve", "title": "Remembering Academy Award-Winning Composer Michel Legrand", "question_index": 12, "text": "Even though you weren't setting out to write songs, there were a couple of songs from \"The Umbrellas Of Cherbourg\" that became very famous on their own and had a life outside of the movie. And I'm thinking from the main theme, which is known, I think, to a lot of Americans as \"I Will Wait For You,\" and \"Watch What Happens.\" Were you surprised that these became songs and became hits on their own?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Guy Foucher, singing in French)."}
{"id": "689314329", "date": "2019-01-28", "guest": "Catherine Deneuve", "title": "Remembering Academy Award-Winning Composer Michel Legrand", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very much surprised, I'll tell you, because, first of all, Jacques and I, we couldn't find any producer in Paris who would put one franc in an adventure like that. Nobody believed in it. We went. We a"}
{"id": "689314329", "date": "2019-01-28", "guest": "Catherine Deneuve", "title": "Remembering Academy Award-Winning Composer Michel Legrand", "question_index": 14, "text": "And of course the movie was not a flop, and neither was the music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They said, no, it will never work. So hearing back-and-forth about a year because, you know, we auditioned about - for a complete year - Jacques and I, we knew that, you know, our movie, if by any mir"}
{"id": "689314329", "date": "2019-01-28", "guest": "Catherine Deneuve", "title": "Remembering Academy Award-Winning Composer Michel Legrand", "question_index": 15, "text": "Now, I believe that none of the actors in \"Umbrellas Of Cherbourg\" did their own singing. I believe each actor had a singer that dubbed for him or her. Is that right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The opening night, right away, it was a success. So we were the first one amazed about it."}
{"id": "689314329", "date": "2019-01-28", "guest": "Catherine Deneuve", "title": "Remembering Academy Award-Winning Composer Michel Legrand", "question_index": 16, "text": "When you were shooting the movie...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, absolutely, because Jacques wanted to have the exact, you know, actor or actress for each role. And I wanted to have the best singer, male or female, for each character. But it was easy, you know"}
{"id": "689314329", "date": "2019-01-28", "guest": "Catherine Deneuve", "title": "Remembering Academy Award-Winning Composer Michel Legrand", "question_index": 17, "text": "...And the actors had to lip-sync...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "689314329", "date": "2019-01-28", "guest": "Catherine Deneuve", "title": "Remembering Academy Award-Winning Composer Michel Legrand", "question_index": 18, "text": "...To the singers, was it hard for the actors...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "689314329", "date": "2019-01-28", "guest": "Catherine Deneuve", "title": "Remembering Academy Award-Winning Composer Michel Legrand", "question_index": 19, "text": "...To get it just right...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "689314329", "date": "2019-01-28", "guest": "Catherine Deneuve", "title": "Remembering Academy Award-Winning Composer Michel Legrand", "question_index": 20, "text": "...And to really be - 'cause so many movies where you know - where it's dubbed like that, it looks really phony.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "689314329", "date": "2019-01-28", "guest": "Catherine Deneuve", "title": "Remembering Academy Award-Winning Composer Michel Legrand", "question_index": 21, "text": "What did it sound like when the actors, in order to be convincing, were actually singing even though you weren't recording their voices 'cause their voices were being dubbed? But they had to actually sing so that they'd look convincing. Did they sing well, or was it funny to listen to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. But, I mean, you know, we had - I was very, very careful with it because when we recorded the singers, we asked the actors to be there at the recording studio. And we said to the actors, you have "}
{"id": "689314329", "date": "2019-01-28", "guest": "Catherine Deneuve", "title": "Remembering Academy Award-Winning Composer Michel Legrand", "question_index": 22, "text": "I wish I could hear what that sounded like.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was funny to them because they don't sing well. But I said, you know, you have to sing; don't just, you know, move your lips; sing; scream even if it's out of key; I don't care, but we must see, yo"}
{"id": "689314329", "date": "2019-01-28", "guest": "Catherine Deneuve", "title": "Remembering Academy Award-Winning Composer Michel Legrand", "question_index": 23, "text": "I wish there was a recording of that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was funny to them because they don't sing well. But I said, you know, you have to sing; don't just, you know, move your lips; sing; scream even if it's out of key; I don't care, but we must see, yo"}
{"id": "689314329", "date": "2019-01-28", "guest": "Catherine Deneuve", "title": "Remembering Academy Award-Winning Composer Michel Legrand", "question_index": 24, "text": "Instead, why don't we hear some more music from the original recording? This is one of the beautiful melodies from \"Umbrellas Of Cherbourg\" that you composed. This is - Americans will know it as \"Watch What Happens\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no. I'm glad that you never heard"}
{"id": "689314329", "date": "2019-01-28", "guest": "Catherine Deneuve", "title": "Remembering Academy Award-Winning Composer Michel Legrand", "question_index": 25, "text": ". But this was so interesting to me 'cause I knew the song first as \"Watch What Happens,\" which...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no. I'm glad that you never heard"}
{"id": "689314329", "date": "2019-01-28", "guest": "Catherine Deneuve", "title": "Remembering Academy Award-Winning Composer Michel Legrand", "question_index": 26, "text": "...You know, was a very kind of popular pop hit. It's such - the second time it's sung in the movie, it's a song of such longing and disillusionment and love. I mean, there's - I'll just explain. There's a diamond merchant who's fallen in love with the leading lady. And he knows that she's in love with somebody else. But he knows that she was made for him. And he goes to her mother and says this. Once I loved a woman, but she did not love me; her name was Lola; once disillusioned, I tried to forget; I left the country and went to the end of the world, but life was meaningless; then I - by chance, I met you; and the moment I saw Genevieve, I knew she was made for me. And it's sung to this melody - a beautiful melody. Why don't we hear it, and then I'll talk to you about writing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "689314329", "date": "2019-01-28", "guest": "Catherine Deneuve", "title": "Remembering Academy Award-Winning Composer Michel Legrand", "question_index": 27, "text": "Michel Legrand, what did you think about when writing this lovely melody?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As character, singing in French)."}
{"id": "689314329", "date": "2019-01-28", "guest": "Catherine Deneuve", "title": "Remembering Academy Award-Winning Composer Michel Legrand", "question_index": 28, "text": "Earlier when you were talking about how you and the director, Jacques Demy, were first conceiving of \"Umbrellas Of Cherbourg,\" you said that one of the difficult things when you were thinking it would be a conventional musical was how do you get from the speaking parts to the singing parts. That transition on film always looks awkward.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I thought of - this is what the film wanted at that moment. You know, for me, the quality of a melody should - even if the melody is very complicated by itself, should sound to you like it e"}
{"id": "689314329", "date": "2019-01-28", "guest": "Catherine Deneuve", "title": "Remembering Academy Award-Winning Composer Michel Legrand", "question_index": 29, "text": "People always have a hard time with that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's true."}
{"id": "689314329", "date": "2019-01-28", "guest": "Catherine Deneuve", "title": "Remembering Academy Award-Winning Composer Michel Legrand", "question_index": 30, "text": "Have you - what has it been like for you to do musicals where you do have to make that transition from speaking to singing, where it's not sung all the way through?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's true."}
{"id": "689314329", "date": "2019-01-28", "guest": "Catherine Deneuve", "title": "Remembering Academy Award-Winning Composer Michel Legrand", "question_index": 31, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We did because right after \"Cherbourg\" - I mean, the success of \"Cherbourg\" - every producer who refused to produce \"Cherbourg\" came to us - said, oh, great; you guys..."}
{"id": "689314329", "date": "2019-01-28", "guest": "Catherine Deneuve", "title": "Remembering Academy Award-Winning Composer Michel Legrand", "question_index": 32, "text": "And was it hard to make that transition between what's said and what's sung?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Make us another \"Umbrellas Of Cherbourg.\" And we said, no, thank you; we've done it once; it's over now; we'll do something else. And then we did a conventional or so-called conventional musical ca"}
{"id": "689314329", "date": "2019-01-28", "guest": "Catherine Deneuve", "title": "Remembering Academy Award-Winning Composer Michel Legrand", "question_index": 33, "text": "Michel Legrand, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hard. Yes, everything is hard. But it - you know, we - you have to be extremely keen and extremely, you know, subtle to bring the music when - you know, to end suddenly and when naturally someone star"}
{"id": "689314329", "date": "2019-01-28", "guest": "Catherine Deneuve", "title": "Remembering Academy Award-Winning Composer Michel Legrand", "question_index": 34, "text": "My interview with Michel Legrand was recorded in 1996. He died Saturday at the age of 86. After we take a short break, Maureen Corrigan will review a new novel about a teenage girl who feels most like herself when playing basketball. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, Terry, it was a pleasure."}
{"id": "690291785", "date": "2019-01-31", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "Could Chinese Telecom Giant Huawei Put U.S. Cyber-Security At Risk?", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. There's good news about the future of the Internet. A new 5G network is being created now, which will not only offer faster downloading on cell phones. It will provide the kind of connectivity we need in the era of the Internet of Things - driverless cars, Internet-connected medical devices, smart TVs and virtual assistants. But there are dangers that could be lurking in the equipment needed to build the new network. The Chinese telecommunications equipment giant Huawei is dominating the creation of 5G networks around the world. For years, classified intelligence reports from the U.S. have warned that China would one day use Huawei to penetrate American networks for cyber-espionage or cyberattacks. In the U.S., the National Security Agency has banned AT&T and Verizon from using Huawei products in America's 5G network. And last month, the U.S. had a top executive from Huawei arrested in Canada so she could be extradited to the U.S. The growing cyberthreat posed by China was stressed in the Worldwide Threat Assessment - a report from the U.S. intelligence community - that was released this week. And all this is part of the backdrop for this week's trade negotiations between the U.S. and China. My guest David Sanger is the author of a book about cyberwar and cyber-sabotage called \"The Perfect Weapon.\" He's a national security correspondent for The New York Times. David Sanger, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Let's start with the 5G network. What is it? And how will it affect our phones, our devices and all our interconnectivity?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "690291785", "date": "2019-01-31", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "Could Chinese Telecom Giant Huawei Put U.S. Cyber-Security At Risk?", "question_index": 1, "text": "And that's exactly the concern about the Chinese telecom giant Huawei because they're building some of these 5G networks around the world. So what is the concern about this Chinese telecom giant and the 5G network?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, at its simplest, the 5G network is an increase in speed and range for what you see on your cell phone. So 5G means just fifth generation. But it's actually much more than that. The hope is that "}
{"id": "690291785", "date": "2019-01-31", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "Could Chinese Telecom Giant Huawei Put U.S. Cyber-Security At Risk?", "question_index": 2, "text": "So describe some more of the kind of trouble that China could create with Huawei building 5G networks in countries around the world where China is becoming increasingly powerful.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the first thing about Huawei is that while most Americans haven't come in direct contact with it because Huawei phones are not sold that widely in the United States, they are sold nearly univers"}
{"id": "690291785", "date": "2019-01-31", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "Could Chinese Telecom Giant Huawei Put U.S. Cyber-Security At Risk?", "question_index": 3, "text": "So is Huawei involved in any aspect of the construction of the 5G network in the U.S.?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If China is in command of the network itself and has sort of end end control from phones for which it makes its own chips to the software on the switch to all of the other tentacles of the central ner"}
{"id": "690291785", "date": "2019-01-31", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "Could Chinese Telecom Giant Huawei Put U.S. Cyber-Security At Risk?", "question_index": 4, "text": "The founder of Huawei is a former engineer with the People's Liberation Army in China, and some people think he's still connected to the People's Liberation Army. And some people also argue that private companies like Huawei are still under the control of Chinese - of China's authoritarian government. So what's your assessment of how much control the Chinese government has over Huawei and how much control Chinese intelligence has over Huawei and has access to whatever data Huawei gets or can tell Huawei, collect data from this country; collect this data from that country?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not anything notable in the United States now - there were a number of classified meetings that took place between the intelligence agencies, the executives of the big telecom firms - AT&T, Verizo"}
{"id": "690291785", "date": "2019-01-31", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "Could Chinese Telecom Giant Huawei Put U.S. Cyber-Security At Risk?", "question_index": 5, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is David Sanger. He's a national security correspondent for The New York Times, and his latest book is called \"The Perfect Weapon: War, Sabotage, And Fear In The Cyber Age.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the founder who you're describing, Ren Zhengfei, is, as you said, a former PLA officer. He then, when he left the PLA, built Huawei initially in the - wiring up the rural parts of China. And he'"}
{"id": "690291785", "date": "2019-01-31", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "Could Chinese Telecom Giant Huawei Put U.S. Cyber-Security At Risk?", "question_index": 6, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with David Sanger, a national security correspondent for The New York Times. We're talking about the 5G network that is being created now and will soon become the central nervous system of the Internet. The Chinese telecom equipment giant Huawei is dominating the creation of 5G networks around the world. For years, classified U.S. intelligence reports have warned that China would one day use Huawei to penetrate American networks for cyber espionage or cyberattacks. So we were talking about the founder of Huawei and his connections to the Chinese military and Huawei's connections to the Chinese government. The founder of Huawei - his daughter was arrested in Canada at the request of the U.S. and indicted last week. So what are those charges? And what are their significance?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the founder who you're describing, Ren Zhengfei, is, as you said, a former PLA officer. He then, when he left the PLA, built Huawei initially in the - wiring up the rural parts of China. And he'"}
{"id": "690291785", "date": "2019-01-31", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "Could Chinese Telecom Giant Huawei Put U.S. Cyber-Security At Risk?", "question_index": 7, "text": "President Trump has said that he knows more about technology than anyone. What's your understanding of how much he understands the issue of Huawei and its potential ability to hack America, to spy on America?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the first thing we know about the daughter is, in her own right, she's a very powerful figure within Huawei. She's the chief financial officer. But she's also been the architect of a lot of Huaw"}
{"id": "690291785", "date": "2019-01-31", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "Could Chinese Telecom Giant Huawei Put U.S. Cyber-Security At Risk?", "question_index": 8, "text": "And you're concerned that our president doesn't really comprehend those issues and therefore can't adequately address them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I have a couple of concerns. The first is the president's mind turns, as he has said himself many times, to things you can build. And so issues around software networks and so forth just don't c"}
{"id": "690291785", "date": "2019-01-31", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "Could Chinese Telecom Giant Huawei Put U.S. Cyber-Security At Risk?", "question_index": 9, "text": "My guest is David Sanger, a national security correspondent for The New York Times who is also the author of the book, \"The Perfect Weapon,\" about cyberwar and cyber-espionage. We'll talk more after we take a short break. And our jazz critic Kevin Whitehead will review a reissue featuring pianist Oscar Peterson and a studio orchestra playing 1960s pop covers. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. And, you know, there are escalation issues here, as well. I mean, there's still a big debate in the United States government about how you respond to a cyberattack. When the Chinese got "}
{"id": "690291785", "date": "2019-01-31", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "Could Chinese Telecom Giant Huawei Put U.S. Cyber-Security At Risk?", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with David Sanger, a national security correspondent for The New York Times and author of \"The Perfect Weapon: War, Sabotage, And Fear In The Cyber Age.\" We're talking about the new 5G network that will soon become the central nervous system of the Internet, providing faster speeds and greater interconnectivity for the era we're entering where nearly everything, from cars to medical devices, connects to the Internet. The Chinese telecom equipment giant Huawei is dominating the creation of 5G networks around the world. For years, classified U.S. intelligence reports have warned that China would one day use Huawei to penetrate American networks for cyber-espionage or cyberattacks. The Worldwide Threat Assessment that was released by intelligence agencies this week said that there's a growing cyberthreat from Russia and China, and that Russia and China are now more aligned than at any point since the mid-1950s. So what does that say to you about the cyberthreat posed by this alignment of Russia and China?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. And, you know, there are escalation issues here, as well. I mean, there's still a big debate in the United States government about how you respond to a cyberattack. When the Chinese got "}
{"id": "690291785", "date": "2019-01-31", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "Could Chinese Telecom Giant Huawei Put U.S. Cyber-Security At Risk?", "question_index": 11, "text": "But with Russia and China being in closer cooperation than at any other time since the 1950s, what's the combination of those two countries looking like? Like, if Russia's about disruption and China is about control, when you put the two together, what's the new formula?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was a fascinating assertion that they made, And I think it was accurate. We have not seen Russia and China cooperate this way since the mid-'50s. And, of course, China only came into being as"}
{"id": "690291785", "date": "2019-01-31", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "Could Chinese Telecom Giant Huawei Put U.S. Cyber-Security At Risk?", "question_index": 12, "text": "So our unilateral approach to world affairs, our alienation of our allies is really working against us when it comes to this new technological era of the 5G network.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the new formula is a diminished role for the United States. That's part of the concern about the degree to which we have alienated our allies. And this issue about Huawei intersects with the ali"}
{"id": "690291785", "date": "2019-01-31", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "Could Chinese Telecom Giant Huawei Put U.S. Cyber-Security At Risk?", "question_index": 13, "text": "Some of the things you've described about China's capabilities of spying on us and hacking data and interfering with cyberwar, even - I mean, that's - it's some pretty terrifying stuff. At the same time, the U.S. has done similar things to China and other countries. Would you describe an operation that was named Shotgiant?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, Terry, the most interesting observation in that worldwide threat assessment was the assertion that the unilateralism of the United States - they didn't use the phrase America first, but they"}
{"id": "690291785", "date": "2019-01-31", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "Could Chinese Telecom Giant Huawei Put U.S. Cyber-Security At Risk?", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with David Sanger, a national security correspondent for The New York Times. We've been talking about how the deep involvement of the Chinese telecom equipment giant Huawei in the development of the new 5G network in many countries could threaten our cybersecurity. If you're negotiating an arms control deal, there are ways that you can verify or come close to verifying whether a nuclear program is continuing, how many weapons the country has, where they're being stored. You can have inspectors go to observe facilities that you know exist. When it comes to, like, cyber issues, it's so much harder to verify what's going on. So what kind of treaty is even possible when it comes to something that is invisible like cyber-control, cyberattack, cyber-espionage, cyber-sabotage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, let's take a short break here. And then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is David Sanger. He's a national security correspondent for The New York Times. And his latest b"}
{"id": "690291785", "date": "2019-01-31", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "Could Chinese Telecom Giant Huawei Put U.S. Cyber-Security At Risk?", "question_index": 15, "text": "Why not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, you've raised the fundamental question that has been haunting us in the cyber age. And it's one of the reasons I went to write \"The Perfect Weapon\" because this is so much more of a vexing prob"}
{"id": "690291785", "date": "2019-01-31", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "Could Chinese Telecom Giant Huawei Put U.S. Cyber-Security At Risk?", "question_index": 16, "text": "You know, the power equation, when it comes to cyber, has really changed because there was a period when the U.S. was the kind of ruler of cyberweapons and cyber potential. And that's just, like, no longer true. So if we do anything like that, there will be a cyber-counterattack and vice versa. So the stakes are really higher than they've ever been, I think.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Imagine the intelligence leaders gathering in the situation room, saying, do we really want to limit the next president of the United States or this president from interfering in an election if it wou"}
{"id": "690291785", "date": "2019-01-31", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "Could Chinese Telecom Giant Huawei Put U.S. Cyber-Security At Risk?", "question_index": 17, "text": "Is there anyone in the Trump administration who you look to as being, like, the foremost expert on cyber issues?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And our control of the technology, as you point out, is less than it's ever been. Look. The Internet was first invented in the United States - you know, the ARPANET - what became the Internet later on"}
{"id": "690291785", "date": "2019-01-31", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "Could Chinese Telecom Giant Huawei Put U.S. Cyber-Security At Risk?", "question_index": 18, "text": "Well, David Sanger, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, there were, Terry. I thought that the president got off to a pretty good start on this. He hired a homeland security adviser, Tom Bossert, who had had some fairly good experience in cyber is"}
{"id": "690291785", "date": "2019-01-31", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "Could Chinese Telecom Giant Huawei Put U.S. Cyber-Security At Risk?", "question_index": 19, "text": "David Sanger is a national security correspondent for The New York Times and author of \"The Perfect Weapon: War, Sabotage, And Fear In The Cyber Age.\" After we take a short break, our jazz critic, Kevin Whitehead, will review a reissue featuring pianist Oscar Peterson and a studio orchestra playing 1960s pop covers. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Great to be with you again."}
{"id": "690324498", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 0, "text": "That's \"Heart Of America\" from Margo Price's new album \"All American Made.\" Margo Price, welcome to FRESH AIR. Thank you so much for coming to our show and for bringing your guitar with you. I really appreciate that. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Some time back in '86, when big banks took the throne, they asked that every local farmer try to dry his own corn. But the men in suits had a bigger plan than to let it be our own. When the "}
{"id": "690324498", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 1, "text": "My pleasure. You were - according to your songs, you were 2 when your family lost the farm. So you probably have, like, no memory of actually living on the farm. Can I ask what the circumstances were that led to your family losing the farm?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, thank you for having me."}
{"id": "690324498", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 2, "text": "So on your first album, there's a song called \"Hands Of Time,\" which is about, you know, leaving your home and hitting the road and, you know, launching a music career. It seems very connected to the first song that we heard. Can you play - can you perform some of that for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I was about 2 or 3. And I do have a couple kind of vague memories of my grandparents packing up all their things in their home and getting rid of their dogs that they loved so much and all their"}
{"id": "690324498", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 3, "text": "So the song that you just did, \"Hands Of Time,\" refers to your father after the farm was taken away, working a job at the prison. And so - is that the job that he took?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", it was - felt a little strange."}
{"id": "690324498", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 4, "text": "Your great-uncle is a songwriter. And I don't know that I know any of his songs, but he is a songwriter who went to Nashville and kind of made his way there. Did that open up any doors for you, at least a door in your mind thinking someone from my family did this so maybe I can do it too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it was. I think it's a hard job for anyone who has it, you know? Nobody wants to be in a - working in a prison. But he did what he had to do to put food on the table. And him and my mom worked v"}
{"id": "690324498", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 5, "text": "And your ring too, you pawned that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he came home, and then we booked the studio time the very next day."}
{"id": "690324498", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 6, "text": "And you have it now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. We went - I went to about three different pawn shops. And none of them wanted to give me very much because there was a crack in it. And it's missing one of the little diamonds on the side. But t"}
{"id": "690324498", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 7, "text": "I'm going to ask you to play a song from your new album. And this is called \"All American Made.\" It's the title song. Would you introduce it for us and play a little bit of it?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2017 interview with country music singer-songwriter Margo Price. She's nominated for a Grammy award as Best New Artist, and the award show will be held Feb"}
{"id": "690324498", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 8, "text": "How has the meaning of the song changed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So yeah, this song, my husband and I co-wrote. And it's been around for a minute. You know, it's funny how songs kind of change their meaning as the world seems to change them for you."}
{"id": "690324498", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 9, "text": "The song has a lot of verses. Do you want to choose a couple of your favorite and play them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think there's just more weight in it than at the time that I wrote it. And, you know, we wrote it during the Obama years. And I feel like I've always been one to question the people in charge. I enj"}
{"id": "690324498", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 10, "text": "That was Margo Price performing for us the title track of her new album, \"All American Made.\" Tom Petty slips in there", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Starting after the lead, about halfway through the song is where my favorite one starts. (Singing) 1987 and I didn't know it then. Reagan was selling weapons to the leaders of Iran. But it won't"}
{"id": "690324498", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 11, "text": ". This was when he was still alive that you wrote the song. Why are you asking him a question?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Starting after the lead, about halfway through the song is where my favorite one starts. (Singing) 1987 and I didn't know it then. Reagan was selling weapons to the leaders of Iran. But it won't"}
{"id": "690324498", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 12, "text": "Yeah. Yeah. As you mention, there are so many drinking songs in country music - not like there's any shortage of them in rock, but", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, because the album came out on his birthday, you know, what would have been his birthday. That was just a really hard time, I think, for people on both sides of the battle right now. Ever"}
{"id": "690324498", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 13, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, because the album came out on his birthday, you know, what would have been his birthday. That was just a really hard time, I think, for people on both sides of the battle right now. Ever"}
{"id": "690324498", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 14, "text": "But country - I mean, it's just, like, a whole genre unto itself - the drinking song. You have a great drinking song that I want you to sing for us. It's called \"Since You Put Me Down.\" And you co-wrote this with your husband, Jeremy Ivey. Would you introduce the song for us and play a little bit of it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "690324498", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 15, "text": "That's a great song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. This song kind of talks about the duality and the good and the evil that we have inside of everybody. Yeah - \"Since You Put Me Down.\" (Playing guitar, singing) Since you put me down, I been drin"}
{"id": "690324498", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 16, "text": "And I really love your voice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "690324498", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 17, "text": "So, you know, in terms of like moving to Nashville to, like, launch your performing career there and try to get known as a performer and a songwriter - in one of your songs, you talk about, you know, starting to sing in the bars and running with the men. When you got to Nashville, was it like a real, like, guy scene that you became part of?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "690324498", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 18, "text": "Notice how I didn't even pick up on that because I'm that naive", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Typically, you know, there's a lot of men out there doing it. You know, that line was - it was kind of a double meaning with - you know, it kind of meant, you know, just hanging out with the guys in t"}
{"id": "690324498", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Typically, you know, there's a lot of men out there doing it. You know, that line was - it was kind of a double meaning with - you know, it kind of meant, you know, just hanging out with the guys in t"}
{"id": "690324498", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yeah, and you also write, you know, not only about singing in the bars, but drinking a lot. And I was wondering, in terms of the other meaning of running with the men or just hanging out with men, was - I was wondering if there was a period where you felt like you almost had to drink more because women are - I think sometimes women are supposed to show they can, like - they can hold their liquor.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not at all. I don't think I've ever said that to anyone, so now the secret's out."}
{"id": "690324498", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Well, I think there's a problem with alcohol in America, and it's advertised in a way that's - you know, you see it, and you're like, oh, that's going to make me sexy, and that's going to ma"}
{"id": "690324498", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is your...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And saying - you know, the bottle is talked about a lot in country music. And I, you know, moved here when I was 20, and I started working in a bar. So yeah, it's always been a slippery slope. And, of"}
{"id": "690324498", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is your twin baby. You had two twin sons, and one of them died at two weeks. And I just - I want to say, I know this was about seven years ago or so, but I want to say how sorry I am. I imagine that kind of grief never leaves.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was not the way to handle things, yeah."}
{"id": "690324498", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's 2017 interview with country music singer-songwriter Margo Price. She's nominated for Best New Artist at this year's Grammy Awards, to be held February 10. Her latest album is called \"All American Made.\"", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Margo Price speaking to Terry Gross in 2017. Last year, during a concert appearance in Nashville in November, Margo Price announced that she and her husband are expecting a baby this May. We'll contin"}
{"id": "690324498", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 25, "text": "I had asked you before you came on the show if you'd be willing to play a song that seemed very out of character for you because I love to do that to musicians, to have them play something that we wouldn't - either we wouldn't think that they liked or that you wouldn't associate with them in some way. And you communicated through email offering to do a Kendrick Lamar song, which surprised me.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Margo Price speaking to Terry Gross in 2017. Last year, during a concert appearance in Nashville in November, Margo Price announced that she and her husband are expecting a baby this May. We'll contin"}
{"id": "690324498", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 26, "text": "No, no, no, no. You committed and now you have to do it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know. I don't know if I can do it. I know, I really don't. I could probably talk about it more than I could do it, but I have been trying."}
{"id": "690324498", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 27, "text": "You want to do like a few, like a tiny little portion?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I know. I've been trying to figure it out where I can make it work, and I just can't - I don't know if I can do it. But, I mean, that's been the album that I have played more than anything this ye"}
{"id": "690324498", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 28, "text": "I have to say, that's hilarious.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God."}
{"id": "690324498", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 29, "text": "Like a heartfelt version of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's really funny."}
{"id": "690324498", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 30, "text": "What do you like so much about Kendrick Lamar, considering his music is so different than yours?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "690324498", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 31, "text": "So you've said that your parents were afraid that you'd - they weren't sure how it would finally work out. So it's working out really good, but they didn't know that at the time. You have a song called \"Weekender,\" which is about spending the weekend in the county jail. Did that happen to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I think that \"DNA\" is one of my favorite songs off of his last album. And I've written about the same things where people have such contradictory elements inside of them and - like weakness."}
{"id": "690324498", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 32, "text": "Can you do, like, a verse of \"Weekender\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It did. Yeah, that was one of the lowest points. I - you know, I feel like I'd been running wild for quite some time, and it was really only a matter of time before it was all going to catch up with m"}
{"id": "690324498", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 33, "text": "Aw (ph), thanks for singing that. That song, \"Weekender,\" is on Margo Price's first album, which is called \"Midwest Farmer's Daughter.\" Her new album is called \"All American Made.\" I was wondering if you'd like to maybe preview a new song for us that you have not yet recorded.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah. (Playing guitar). Let's see. (Playing guitar, singing). Well, I went down to the county jail, turned myself in, spending all my weekends here, far from my good-timing friends. Things went "}
{"id": "690324498", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 34, "text": "You'll probably record that at some point.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I would love to. This is a song that I wrote just pretty recently here. And it's kind of about a - seeing the billboard on the side of the road that says 1-800-JESUS. And you want to call him bec"}
{"id": "690324498", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 35, "text": "Margo Price, thank you so much, and thank you for being so generous and singing and playing for us. It was really just wonderful. Thank you very much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think so."}
{"id": "690670977", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Dick Miller", "title": "Remembering Character Actor Dick Miller", "question_index": 0, "text": "Did anybody in the audience notice that it was the same person who was a cowboy and an Indian?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was doing his - I believe a second film, picture called \"Apache Woman\" with Lloyd Bridges. The guy who introduced me said, Dick's a writer. You need any scripts? He says, I got plenty of writers. I"}
{"id": "690670977", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Dick Miller", "title": "Remembering Character Actor Dick Miller", "question_index": 1, "text": "Did you have to learn how to ride a horse for the movie?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think so. Since it was so early, I mean, there was nothing to recognize. Nobody could say, oh, I've seen him before - a lot of dark makeup and some nose plugs. And the difference was - you cou"}
{"id": "690670977", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Dick Miller", "title": "Remembering Character Actor Dick Miller", "question_index": 2, "text": "You played the lead in the 1959 Roger Corman movie \"Bucket Of Blood,\" and this has become a real cult classic. You - as the leading role, you were a waiter in a beatnik coffee house. And you become an artist by covering first at - your dead cat in clay, and then by killing people and covering the corpses in clay and passing it off as sculpture. And once this artist becomes really acclaimed, you also become quite the hipster. Was it fun to spoof the hipster in the movie?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Without a parachute? Of course. You know, they ask you all kinds of things, and you got to lie and say, of course I can do that. I had ridden a little up to that point - horses in stables in Central P"}
{"id": "690670977", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Dick Miller", "title": "Remembering Character Actor Dick Miller", "question_index": 3, "text": "You mean a coffeehouse. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was made at the height of the coffee shop era. Everybody was going in for espresso..."}
{"id": "690670977", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Dick Miller", "title": "Remembering Character Actor Dick Miller", "question_index": 4, "text": "The movie was shot in, I think, five days. Can you give us an idea of how you made a movie that quickly?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And that was the basic idea behind the picture - was the hipster coffeehouse groupies at that time and the people who hung around and the no-talents and the talents of that era. I think later on"}
{"id": "690670977", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Dick Miller", "title": "Remembering Character Actor Dick Miller", "question_index": 5, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, five days was not as tight as it seemed. They were making TV half-hour shows in 2 1/2 days then. People who had that down had that type of a - that was a finger snap."}
{"id": "690670977", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Dick Miller", "title": "Remembering Character Actor Dick Miller", "question_index": 6, "text": "But I understand you were offered the lead in \"Little Shop Of Horrors,\" but you turned it down. Why didn't you take it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "People who had that down at that moment could make movies that fast. We were - when I started with Roger, we were making Westerns, and we would make them in six days. And that was - it seemed like a f"}
{"id": "690670977", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Dick Miller", "title": "Remembering Character Actor Dick Miller", "question_index": 7, "text": "How come you stayed with Roger Corman for so long? And how long was it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have a track record of turning down a lot of pictures for a lot of unknown reasons, even to myself. I think at that time - and I was hungry in those days. I would turn down jobs and say, I don't wan"}
{"id": "690670977", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Dick Miller", "title": "Remembering Character Actor Dick Miller", "question_index": 8, "text": "Did he always write a role for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let's see. When I went to work for Roger, I was not that serious about my career. I still didn't know if I wanted to be a writer, although I had stopped writing. I mean, I worked as an actor in movies"}
{"id": "690670977", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Dick Miller", "title": "Remembering Character Actor Dick Miller", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well, Joe Dante has cast you in every one of the movies that he's made. And I think that a lot of the people who became well-known directors after working for Roger Corman ended up casting you in their films. You know, Joe Dante's an example. Allan Arkush, you were in his \"Rock 'N' Roll High School.\" Help me out with this. What are some others?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know? You're not going to say, this guy does - he does cowboys only or Indians only. I suddenly found myself playing rocket scientists, demented busboys, leading men, villains, everything. And he "}
{"id": "690670977", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Dick Miller", "title": "Remembering Character Actor Dick Miller", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yeah, \"New York, New York.\" You played a club owner.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. Marty Scorsese."}
{"id": "690670977", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Dick Miller", "title": "Remembering Character Actor Dick Miller", "question_index": 11, "text": "So were you self-conscious about this...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Jonathan Demme, Jonathan Kaplan."}
{"id": "690670977", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Dick Miller", "title": "Remembering Character Actor Dick Miller", "question_index": 12, "text": "Oh, really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Steven Spielberg..."}
{"id": "690670977", "date": "2019-02-01", "guest": "Dick Miller", "title": "Remembering Character Actor Dick Miller", "question_index": 13, "text": "Were you self-conscious about this, knowing that people were paying homage to you in a way? I mean, they'd seen you in all these movies. Do you know what I mean? And your parts were, in a way, an homage to yourself.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Not to overlook Steven."}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Before states ran legal lotteries, there was the underground street version, the numbers. Some numbers games were run by organized crime. Some were run by enterprising individuals whose best chance at prosperity was through the underground economy. In 1960s Detroit, at a time when a lot of African-Americans were shut out of job and economic opportunities, Fannie Davis started running her own numbers operation. She did well and raised her five children in a comfortable home that she owned. One of those children is my guest, Bridgett Davis. She's written a new memoir about her mother called \"The World According To Fannie Davis: My Mother's Life In The Detroit Numbers.\" Her mother's profits from being a numbers runner enabled Bridgett to attend Spelman College. She went on to graduate from the Columbia University Graduate School of Journalism. She's the author of two novels and is a creative writing professor at Baruch College of The City University of New York, where she directs the writer-in-residence program. Bridgett Davis, welcome to FRESH AIR. I want to start by asking you to describe the numbers at the time your mother started working as a numbers runner.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 1, "text": "Explain how that worked in the underground economy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The numbers were, first of all, illegal. They were a precursor to the legal lottery that we all know about today. So when my mom launched her business in 1958, she was stepping into an already thrivin"}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 2, "text": "And how are the winning numbers decided?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It really was just a matter of making sure the authorities didn't find out but really circulating those dollars in the community over and over again. So you might go to someone's home. And you would g"}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 3, "text": "So if it was hard - so hard to figure out what the winning number was, how is the winning number circulated? How did people know that their number had hit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, originally, supposedly, this is the legend. One man came up with this elegant design for the numbers. He created the idea. And he got the numbers every day from the local newspaper, from a New Y"}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 4, "text": "That requires a level of trust.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The big numbers bosses employed people who helped with those calculations. Once the numbers bosses signed off on the daily winners, then the word went out - almost like a game of telephone, except the"}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 5, "text": "When your mother started in the numbers, she had a banker, Eddie Wingate, who was a major figure in the Detroit numbers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It absolutely does. It absolutely does."}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 6, "text": "So describe what it meant to have a banker when you were running the numbers and tell us a little bit about Eddie Wingate.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 7, "text": "So your mother got along with Eddie Wingate when she was - he was banking numbers for her.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Having a banker was key because as a bookie, you were really an intermediary. You basically accepted bets from customers, and then you turned in those very numbers, those bets, to a higher sort of ran"}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 8, "text": "But she decided eventually to bank the numbers herself. So what did that mean in terms of your mother being a kind of underground entrepreneur?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 9, "text": "What new responsibilities did she take on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 10, "text": "Describe the point of view you had as a child when you're, say, like, 7 or 8, watching your mother collect all this money, do all the math, keep track of what the winning number was, count her cash 'cause you say you have this indelible image burned in your mind of your mother sitting there, counting cash.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wow. It was a big responsibility. It was a big risk because when she worked for Eddie Wingate, it was as though she got a salary. He gave her a percentage of all the proceeds, all the business that sh"}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 11, "text": "So what did this all look like to you as a child?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 12, "text": "It was also anxiety-provoking - wasn't it? - because you must have known, even at a young age, that there was a lot of risk involved with this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was my normal. I really had no other reference. I knew that other mothers weren't like my mom, but it was simply her job. It was what she did."}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 13, "text": "I know the phone must have been ringing all the time at your home, but what about house calls? Did people come to put money on their number?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. There was always one point in the day when it was stressful. And that's when the number was about to be announced. The anticipation of what each day's number was going to be brought a lot of anxi"}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 14, "text": "So how would your mother collect the money from them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Some people - some of her older reliable customers, whom she'd been working with for many years, they preferred to come by the house because it was sort of a social interaction. It was communal. "}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 15, "text": "We should take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Bridgett Davis, author of the new memoir \"The World According To Fannie Davis: My Mother's Life In The Detroit Numbers.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "because my mom let them play on credit. She let them play all week. And then at the end of the week, she collected her money from them. My stepfather or some young man that she hired that she trusted "}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is writer and professor Bridgett Davis. Her new memoir is called \"The World According To Fannie Davis\" and is about her mother who ran the numbers in Detroit. She had her own numbers business, which is - if you're not familiar with the numbers, it's a kind of underground version of a lottery that existed long before the lottery was legal. Dreams played a big role in the numbers. You could dream a number and consider that your lucky number and place a bet on that or you could look up your dream in the dream book. And I'd like you to explain what the dream book is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "because my mom let them play on credit. She let them play all week. And then at the end of the week, she collected her money from them. My stepfather or some young man that she hired that she trusted "}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 17, "text": "So did you or your mother rely on the dream book to play numbers, and did you and your mother actually play numbers even though your mother was a numbers runner?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the dream book is like a bible to those who play and run numbers. You go into anyone's home who's familiar with and involved in the numbers, and you'll see those dream books. My mom had two in part"}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 18, "text": "Winning the numbers was a risky business too. What were the risks that your family took because your mother ran the numbers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So that's a great question because I did not have much interest at all in playing the numbers, but my mother was definitely a player. She both ran the numbers. You know, she was a bookie and a banker "}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 19, "text": "There was another risk you didn't mention, and that's of being robbed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The biggest risk of all was actually getting caught, actually having authorities bust your business. So that was always looming. But it wasn't made apparent. By that, I mean we just knew to keep it a "}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 20, "text": "My guest is Bridgett Davis, author of the memoir \"The World According to Fannie Davis,\" about her mother, who was a numbers runner. We'll talk about how her mother kept her numbers business going after the state lottery was legalized after we take a short break. Remember the Detroit numbers boss she mentioned, Eddie Wingate, who owned a record label that he sold to Motown's Berry Gordy? Well, here's a 1966 hit from that label by soul singer Edwin Starr. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. I mean, it's a cash business. And so she had lots of safeguards, you know, against being robbed. She kept her money in a safe in the house inside of her bedroom closet. It was a combinatio"}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Bridgett Davis, author of the new memoir \"The World According To Fannie Davis: My Mother's Life In The Detroit Numbers.\" Fannie was Bridget's mother and supported her five children and bought their home by being a numbers runner. The numbers are like the lottery, where you bet on winning numbers, except unlike state-run lotteries, the numbers are illegal. Fannie booked the bets, banked them, paid out the winners when there were winners and kept the remaining money as profit. When Bridgett Davis was growing up in Detroit in the '60s, the numbers were a big part of the underground economy in African-American communities. You describe a whole infrastructure of black businesses created from the profits of running the numbers. So can you tell us about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. I mean, it's a cash business. And so she had lots of safeguards, you know, against being robbed. She kept her money in a safe in the house inside of her bedroom closet. It was a combinatio"}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 22, "text": "So there was a lot of pressure on you as a child to keep your mother's business a secret 'cause it was illegal.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Back when the numbers were really thriving in Detroit in the '30s, '40s, '50s, even before my mom got involved, we forget how segregated this country was. And even in the North, black folks couldn't j"}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 23, "text": "So in school one day in first grade, your teacher asked you, what do your parents do for a living? And, like, you know, you couldn't say what your father did because - actually, you did. You said he doesn't work because he can't work. He has health problems. He was injured at work.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 24, "text": "And she said, so what does your mother do? And of course you could not answer that. You said something like, oh, I don't know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 25, "text": "...Because your mother was in the illegal economy. You couldn't really give a straight answer to that to your teacher.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 26, "text": "And then she started asking you - looking at your shoes, she said, how many pair of shoes do you have? Tell us this story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", she then said to me you sure do have a lot of pairs of shoes. And I nodded. And she said, you know what; before you sit down, I want you to name every pair of shoes you have. And I was so nervous. A"}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 28, "text": "Was there a racial subtext there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". She looked at me with such disdain. Oh, and then she never, ever said another word to me."}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 29, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Bridgett Davis. Her new book is a memoir about growing up in Detroit where her mother ran the numbers and had a very successful business as a numbers runner and banker. And the memoir is called \"The World According to Fannie Davis,\" Fannie Davis being Bridgett's mother. We'll be right back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very much so. When I was 6 years old, all I remember is her blond bouffant and those blue eyes. But later, because it stuck with me so long, I understood what was so upsetting. I knew she was judging "}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 30, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is writer and writing professor Bridgett Davis. Her new book is called \"The World According To Fannie Davis.\" It's a memoir about her mother, who was a numbers runner in Detroit in the 1960s. Detroit started to crack down on the numbers. And there's this big raid on the Hotel Gotham, which was a black-owned hotel...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very much so. When I was 6 years old, all I remember is her blond bouffant and those blue eyes. But later, because it stuck with me so long, I understood what was so upsetting. I knew she was judging "}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 31, "text": "...That had, like, at least one room on each floor for numbers runners.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 32, "text": "What did that raid - a lot of people were arrested. What did that raid mean to your mother, who was trying to, you know, stay out of sight?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 33, "text": "Detroit was a tough place in the '60s. In 1967, that was the year of the Detroit uprising or the Detroit riots, depending on the language that you use, after an unlicensed, after-hours bar was busted by the police and everyone inside was arrested. I think it was around 100 people. A lot of people gathered around and observed how the police were treating these people, which wasn't well. And that that led to, again, an uprising or a riot, depending on who's describing it. And there's a lot of burning and looting, confrontations with the police. Governor George Romney, Mitt's father, called in the National Guard. You saw tanks rolling down your street.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. I had no idea that that had happened. I mean, I was very young at the time that it happened. But I never heard her tell stories about it. So I could only imagine what that did for her or to her"}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 34, "text": "What were those five days like for you? Describe your neighborhood then and what those five days were like.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 35, "text": "For five days?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I still remember it even though I was 7. We lived in a lovely neighborhood, a lovely northwest community called Russell Woods. And there was a park nearby. And rumors spread that Russell Woods Par"}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 36, "text": "How old were you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, no one wanted to be walking through the house and be vulnerable to a bullet going through a window. It was so eerie. And what I also remember is that you would think would be boisterous and loud "}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 37, "text": "You write you developed a paralyzing fear of going outside after that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And frightening. I was 7."}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 38, "text": "How did that affect your opinion of burning and looting as a response to injustice or police violence?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I developed such a fear. And I sort of - I focused it around my father. I just was convinced that something was going to harm him out there in the world. And I started, like, grabbing onto his leg and"}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 39, "text": "In 1972, Detroit legalized the state lottery. How did the original legal lottery compare with the numbers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It saddens me because, of course, it always ends up destroying our own communities. And yet I completely understand it. It's just unbelievable, pent-up frustration. And people have said, oh, but why d"}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 40, "text": "And that changed in 1977 when it became a daily lottery?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Originally, the legal lottery was not direct competition with the numbers. It was different. It was a weekly drawing. It was more like a sweepstakes. If you bought a ticket, you did not get to choose "}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 41, "text": "How did your mother manage to stay afloat while competing with the official daily lottery?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 42, "text": "What was left of your mother's business when she died of cancer? And what year was that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Somehow she landed on this idea that you can't - if you can't beat them, join them. So she decided what she would do is she would use the daily winning numbers that the lottery provided as the winning"}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 43, "text": "Was the business doing well at the end, or was it a struggle?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mother died of cancer in 1992. And at the point she died, my sister, Rita, had taken over the business and had taken in her customers and had begun to run the business, which she was quite capable "}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 44, "text": "Let's take a break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Bridgett Davis. And her new memoir is about her mother, who was a numbers runner in Detroit in the 1960s. Her name was Fannie Davis, and the title of the book is \"The World According To Fannie Davis.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think, at the end, it was a much smaller business. And what it did do was provide for my nephew, my mother's grandson, to complete college. That was a promise that we had made to her. We knew it was"}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 45, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is writer Bridgett Davis. Her new book is a memoir. It's called \"The World According To Fannie Davis.\" Fannie Davis was her mother, and she was a numbers runner in Detroit in the 1960s. Your mother had five children and lost three of them in the 1980s. Your 33-year-old brother was shooting pool at a neighborhood bar. He got into an argument. He saw the guy had a gun. And when your brother ran out, he was shot in the back and killed. Your 37-year-old sister, Dianne, was shot and killed by her husband in a murder-suicide after she told him she wanted a divorce. And your 35-year-old sister had a heart attack and died. That's a lot of tragedy to survive in one decade. How did you handle that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think, at the end, it was a much smaller business. And what it did do was provide for my nephew, my mother's grandson, to complete college. That was a promise that we had made to her. We knew it was"}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 46, "text": "One of the things I love about your book is seeing how your family's history connects to the larger history of African-Americans and, you know, the larger story of the great migration because your parents migrated from Jim Crow Tennessee to Detroit in the 1950s. Your mother's grandparents were slaves.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. That's the completely honest answer. I do not know. I just remember feeling as though I could not add more of a burden to my mother, that the last thing I wanted to do was give her somet"}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 47, "text": "And so, you know, the fact that your mother worked in the illegal economy, the underground economy - when your grandparents are slaves...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 48, "text": "...The fact that you're able to make a living at all is kind of amazing. You know, the history of slavery in America - it's the undercurrent of so much in American history. Like, you can't understand American history without understanding that so many black people in America are the descendants of slaves.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 49, "text": "And I feel like, although you don't spend a lot of time on that in the book, that it's just kind of like the subtext of a lot of the book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 50, "text": "Well, I want to thank you for writing the book. It's a great book. And I want to thank you for our conversation. I really enjoyed talking with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. You know, there are a couple of things I really have thought a lot about around this whole idea of slavery and how it connects to both my mom's story and also the numbers, right? So first, wi"}
{"id": "691241463", "date": "2019-02-04", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 51, "text": "Bridgett Davis is the author of the new memoir \"The World According To Fannie Davis: My Mother's Life In The Detroit Numbers.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll have an unstuffy conversation about grammar and usage with Random House copy chief Benjamin Dreyer, author of the new book \"Dreyer's English,\" which he sarcastically subtitled \"An Utterly Correct Guide To Clarity And Style.\" He says he found his voice as an author by writing on Twitter, where his language advice has become very popular. I hope you'll join us. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much. I really enjoyed it."}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 0, "text": "Joel and Ethan Coen, welcome to FRESH AIR. Thanks for coming back on our show", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Buster Scruggs) Maybe some of y'all have heard of me - Buster Scruggs, known to some as the San Saba songbird. I've got other handles, nicknames, appellations and cognomens. But this one here I do"}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 1, "text": ". So Westerns usually end with the surviving good guys vanquishing the bad guys and restoring order to the town. But your stories don't end that way in this Western anthology. Death can come suddenly no matter who you are. Did you ever ask yourself while you were writing and directing it if you think you might have survived living in the Old West - like, how...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Buster Scruggs) Maybe some of y'all have heard of me - Buster Scruggs, known to some as the San Saba songbird. I've got other handles, nicknames, appellations and cognomens. But this one here I do"}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 2, "text": "...How long you think you would've lasted?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Buster Scruggs) Maybe some of y'all have heard of me - Buster Scruggs, known to some as the San Saba songbird. I've got other handles, nicknames, appellations and cognomens. But this one here I do"}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 3, "text": "That's funny. So each story is told as if it were a short story from a collection of Western stories. In one of the stories, it's set in a stagecoach. And we slowly - it's like a series of monologues within the stagecoach in which each character tells us something about who they are and what they believe. And one of the characters played by Brendan Gleeson - without giving much away about who they really are, one of the characters played by Brendan Gleeson sings a version of the \"Streets Of Laredo\" that I've never heard before. The lyric I'm familiar with is the song set in the Old West where the guy singing the song sees a young cowboy in the streets of Laredo whose wrapped up in white linen as cold as the clay. And the young cowboy explains that he's done wrong. He's been shot in the chest, and he knows he's dying. And he instructs the other man how he wants to be buried and what to tell his mother. Gleeson sings a different version of it. This version is sung by a man killed by his lover. So I just want to play some of that song. So this is Brendan Gleeson.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We just barely survived living in the Midwest."}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 4, "text": "I think that's pretty beautiful. Did you know he could sing? J.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Irishman, singing) As I was a walking down by the Lock, as I was walking one morning of late, who should I spy but my old dear comrade wrapped up in flannel - so hard is his fate. I boldly stepped"}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 5, "text": "The use of the word disordered is so interesting in it. Like, what does he say? She disordered my body or", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And said, you know, take a crack at this. And Brendan sent it back, and we thought, oh, beautiful. That's the original - well, I don't know about the original. These are - you know, these are, like, f"}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 6, "text": "... J.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And said, you know, take a crack at this. And Brendan sent it back, and we thought, oh, beautiful. That's the original - well, I don't know about the original. These are - you know, these are, like, f"}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yeah, that's... J.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Had she but told me before she disordered me..."}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 8, "text": "Right. I didn't realize it was about syphilis or some STD. J.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I might have got pills - salts or pills of white mercury."}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 9, "text": "Oh, yeah. I was trying to figure out what the white mercury pills were about. Like, those are not pills we take anymore.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's about syphilis."}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 10, "text": "J.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's about syphilis."}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 11, "text": "Yeah, yeah. So, you know, and you bookend the whole movie with an instrumental version of the \"Streets Of Laredo.\" So it is one of, like, the classic death songs about the Old West. Is that why you chose it? Because there is... J.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, other ways of treating syphilis."}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 12, "text": "...So much death in the movie. J.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 13, "text": "OK, stupid question. Did you ever hear the Allan Sherman parody version of \"Streets Of Laredo\"... J.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's a, you know, beautiful elegiac song about death. And it's familiar to almost everyone. At least the melody is. But it was interesting to us to, you know, have it make its appearance in the "}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 14, "text": "...Called \"Streets Of Miami?\" It's really horrible.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course."}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 15, "text": "E.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course."}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 16, "text": "Do you remember the lyrics? J.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, he was a absolute giant in our youth."}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 17, "text": "He stays at the Fontainebleau. He's", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't remember the \"Streets Of Miami\" very - no, not really."}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 18, "text": "- the Fontainebleau hotel. He's taking a trip with his - instead of, like, a sidekick or something, it's his, like, partner, Sammy. It has the line - and paid to the firm $60 a day. No, no. I mean charged to the firm $60 a day... J.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't remember the \"Streets Of Miami\" very - no, not really."}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 19, "text": "...'Cause he's expensing the trip", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Charged $60 a day."}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 20, "text": ". So another story I want to talk about from your film takes place on a wagon train. And that's another trope of Westerns. Why did you want to do a wagon train story? J.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Charged $60 a day."}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 21, "text": "Well, sure, 'cause you have, like, nearly - it looks like, like, a mile of wagons with people walking alongside of them. And there's like - there's horses and oxen. And it's like, oh, wow", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it really was our sort of, at a certain point, rummaging around in the Western genre thinking, well, we haven't, you know - in thinking about the sort of subgenres - well, we haven't done a wa"}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 22, "text": ". J.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it really was our sort of, at a certain point, rummaging around in the Western genre thinking, well, we haven't, you know - in thinking about the sort of subgenres - well, we haven't done a wa"}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 23, "text": ". J.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, and the problem is that you have, you know, essentially, sort of a half-a-mile long chain of wagons. And the camera's in a certain position. And when you say action, the first wagon moves. And 1"}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 24, "text": "Well, I remember after we talked about your movie \"Inside Llewyn Davis\" where there was a cat who was a co-star of the film. You said you would never work with a cat again. And so now you've put yourself in the position with this film of working with, like, oxen and horses, a dog. There's an owl. J.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...The last wagon can start moving. And you've finally got everything going together, and then one oxen team will decide to cut sharply over to the right and ruin the shot. So you then have a choice, "}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 25, "text": "There's", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, but no cats."}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 26, "text": "- but it seems to me like you set yourself up for trouble. J.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, but no cats."}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 27, "text": "Had you forgotten how hard it was just to work with a cat? E.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, we did."}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 28, "text": "How many wranglers did you have working on this? E.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah..."}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 29, "text": ". E.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, Travis, the oxen wrangler - great guy. I - but I - you know. So I asked him if the oxen could - I don't know what it was - come to a mark and stop or something. And he - it was something that seem"}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 30, "text": "Are oxen responsive? I mean, I've never worked with an ox. J.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I thought, man, that's - yeah. Why should that be different than anything else on a movie?"}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 31, "text": "You know, the dog is a staple on a lot of Westerns. Of course, there's, like, \"Lassie,\" which isn't a western. But Lassie is always kind of, like, rescuing people. Rin Tin Tin - always rescuing people. Then there's, like, the beloved family dog in a lot of Westerns who's, like, the trusty companion. In your story, there's a little dog who accompanies this brother and sister on the wagon train. And it's the kind of dog that usually you think of as an apartment dog", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview from last year with filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen. Their latest film, \"The Ballad Of Buster Scruggs,\" is nominated for an Oscar for best adapted"}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 32, "text": ". And it's the kind of dog you - like, you're walking down the street. And it's, like, this little dog who's kind of, like, really barking loudly and neurotically", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview from last year with filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen. Their latest film, \"The Ballad Of Buster Scruggs,\" is nominated for an Oscar for best adapted"}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 33, "text": ". And so you've got this, like, little apartment dog on the wagon train. And people are complaining about the barking almost as if they live in an apartment building, and the dog's being really annoying. E.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview from last year with filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen. Their latest film, \"The Ballad Of Buster Scruggs,\" is nominated for an Oscar for best adapted"}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 34, "text": "Does not", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is interesting what you say about how that - the dog classically rescues people. And not to give anything away, but this one..."}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 35, "text": ". E.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is interesting what you say about how that - the dog classically rescues people. And not to give anything away, but this one..."}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 36, "text": "I want to play some dialogue from this wagon train sequence. And one of the leading characters in it is a young woman who's gone on the Oregon Trail with this wagon train with her brother. And they're both - I don't know - probably in their 20s, early 20s. And he was the only family she had, and he dies of some horrible cough early on. So she's left on her own. And she owes the person who's driving the wagon all this money that her brother promised, but her brother didn't leave any money. And she was supposed to marry someone who her brother said was his business partner if her business partner found her, you know, attractive enough. So she's just totally lost. And one of the two wagon masters is being very helpful to her. And in one scene, he says to her that he has, you know, a crackpot idea that might be helpful to her. And so she asks him about it. And this is Zoe Kazan as the young woman, Bill Heck as the wagon master.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The journey - yeah. There - it was kind of interesting because the - you know, it's a traveling group of however many people - you know, scores of people, probably - not hundreds. And they were just a"}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 37, "text": "The dialogue that you wrote for this is so much more formal and now old-fashioned-sounding than the way people speak now. I don't wish to slight my brother's memory. I submit this in respect. J.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Billy Knapp) Well, my idea, then, is this. And I submit it in respect, Ms. Longabaugh. I propose to assume your brother's debt to the hired boy and to ask you to marry me."}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 38, "text": "So this was shot in video instead of film. Is that right? E.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's another thing that Bill Heck says in that scene, which also came from the same source that we were talking about a minute ago when we were talking about the dog - these firsthand accounts - wh"}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 39, "text": "Digitally. Digitally, I should say. J.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Video? Well, digitally."}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 40, "text": "Yeah. Yeah. J.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 41, "text": "Does it change how you watch rushes? J.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, there were 800 visual effects shots in this movie. And when you're doing a lot of visual effects shots for whatever reason, it's easier if the raw material, so to speak, has been shot digita"}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 42, "text": "What's the difference? J.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very much so."}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 43, "text": "I've always wondered, though, how directors feel confident that they have a good shot and a good tape when they actually haven't seen the film itself. J.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, if you're shooting on film, there's something that happens between when you're actually recording the information on the set and when you see it for the first time. It goes to a lab. It's - "}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 44, "text": ". J.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, that also gets into the - it gets into why DPs are so fond of digital photography. Most of them will say - if you ask them the difference, they'll say they can sleep at night..."}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 45, "text": "Clooney and his friend Gracchus are in a crowd at the feet of Jesus, who's being crucified. And George Clooney, a Roman who has become a follower of Jesus, a believer, is making this impassioned speech about Jesus. So here is George Clooney from \"Hail, Caesar!\"", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's 2018 interview with the filmmaking brothers Joel and Ethan Coen. Their joint credits include \"Blood Simple,\" \"Farg"}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 46, "text": "I just can't hear that scene too many times...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Gracchus) Got most of it, man. You're all right."}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 47, "text": "Breaks me up every time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Gracchus) Got most of it, man. You're all right."}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 48, "text": "What - among the things I love about it is that it is a very stirring speech. But it's also, like, such a Hollywood cliche the way it's done", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Gracchus) Got most of it, man. You're all right."}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 49, "text": ". E.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Gracchus) Got most of it, man. You're all right."}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 50, "text": "Did you have fun writing that? - like, writing, like, biblical, epic language. ETHAN", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...This thing about divorce lawyers. He's - George goes whole hog."}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 51, "text": "I've noticed that. I know. J.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, we've seen those movies too. Let me tell you. Most of those movies are pretty boring and pretty stiff. They don't..."}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 52, "text": "Like, if you watch them back, there's, like, so much boring dialogue in a lot of them. J.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's..."}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 53, "text": "This is set in Hollywood in a Hollywood studio. There are other films in addition to the biblical epic that are being shot there. And we see some of those other films that are being shot. And one of those films is a musical about sailors who are on leave during World War II. And they're about to be called, like, back onto the ship. And they're realizing, like, ah, it's going to be, like, eight months without women. And so Channing Tatum as one of the sailors sings this song about, like, no dames. There's going to be, like, no dames. And it's a really fun sequence with, like, dancing that is so much like those, like, 40s, early 50s musicals, where, like, he dances with a broom. He dances with a chorus of sailors. He dances on the bar. He does a soft shoe on sand. I mean, it's, like, every", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...\"Ben Hur.\""}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 54, "text": "- every trope from those dance numbers is in this, except with much more, like, gay overtones and... E.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...\"Ben Hur.\""}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 55, "text": "...Double entendres. So... E.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 56, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, you got singing, dancing sailors. You - see. We're not big on subtext. If there's a gay subtext, we're going to make it text."}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 57, "text": "OK. So let's hear some of the songs. This is Channing Tatum. And he's doing his own singing, right? J.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, you got singing, dancing sailors. You - see. We're not big on subtext. If there's a gay subtext, we're going to make it text."}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 58, "text": "Yeah. OK. E.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 59, "text": "So did you love those old musicals? J.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As sailors, singing) But mermaids got no gams. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #6: (As sailor, singing) No gams."}
{"id": "692636652", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Tim Blake Nelson", "title": "Filmmakers Joel and Ethan Coen On Singing Cowboys And Working With Oxen", "question_index": 60, "text": "Well, I want to thank you both for talking with us. Thank you so much. It's always a pleasure to talk with you. Thanks for coming back to our show. J.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Unlike looking at the biblical epics again, looking at those musicals again was a pleasure. I mean, they're great. That kind of does hold up. You don't get tired of those."}
{"id": "692681466", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Frank Robinson", "title": "Remembering Baseball Hall Of Famer Frank Robinson", "question_index": 0, "text": "I think the first person in a situation like that is going to be looked at as an example, and it's quite a responsibility to have. And it could be very inhibiting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Finally, with the problem out in the open - Al Campanis making that statement that - a lot of us had been saying for years the problem existed. And the people in baseball said it did not exist. And fi"}
{"id": "692681466", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Frank Robinson", "title": "Remembering Baseball Hall Of Famer Frank Robinson", "question_index": 1, "text": "Well, you had a lot of difficult adjustments to make going from playing to managing. And you write in your book that one of the most difficult adjustments was actually learning to work with pitchers because you'd hated pitchers so much as a batter yourself.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I - it's no doubt about it, Terry. I went through that when I was a manager of the Cleveland Indians. Just take, for example, opening day. And I put myself in the lineup, and I don't know why. B"}
{"id": "692681466", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Frank Robinson", "title": "Remembering Baseball Hall Of Famer Frank Robinson", "question_index": 2, "text": "Let's talk a little bit about your career as a player - quite an illustrious career. Now, you say in your book that you really didn't know anything about racism until you entered baseball in 1953. Was that your first exposure to segregation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's true. I think that's the most delicate part, I think, of managing other than dealing with the press is handling pitchers. And a lot of people think that, other than an ex-pitcher, manager"}
{"id": "692681466", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Frank Robinson", "title": "Remembering Baseball Hall Of Famer Frank Robinson", "question_index": 3, "text": "Did you get any kind of support from management?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it certainly was. As I was growing up in Oakland, Calif., I certainly knew the difference in the color of my skin and some of my friends and neighbors and people who lived in the neighborhood. B"}
{"id": "692681466", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Frank Robinson", "title": "Remembering Baseball Hall Of Famer Frank Robinson", "question_index": 4, "text": "In the majors, you developed a reputation for being a very aggressive player. One of the things you became known for was sliding into second with your spikes up and frequently knocking into the second baseman. What were your guidelines there? You say your ethic was win any way you can win within the rules. What were your kind of guidelines in your own head about how to slide into second and to be intimidating but not to take that too far?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, not really. You know, I guess they just felt like, hey, you signed on to do a job, and this is the job; and this is the conditions you have to play in, so go out and do your job."}
{"id": "692681466", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Frank Robinson", "title": "Remembering Baseball Hall Of Famer Frank Robinson", "question_index": 5, "text": "Well, if you ended up spiking a player as you were sliding into second, would there be a payback later in the game?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Terry, I'll tell you. I never slid into a base to intentionally hurt anyone, but I had a job to do. And my job was to try to break up the double play any way I possibly could do that. That's the"}
{"id": "692681466", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Frank Robinson", "title": "Remembering Baseball Hall Of Famer Frank Robinson", "question_index": 6, "text": "Let's stay at home plate for a minute. You also used to crowd the plate a lot as a hitter. Explain the strategy of that - of standing really close to the plate when you're batting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the possibility was there. The next time I was up at home plate, the possibility of being hit in the ribs, hit in the head was there. But I never let that bother me. I went up to home plate and "}
{"id": "692681466", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Frank Robinson", "title": "Remembering Baseball Hall Of Famer Frank Robinson", "question_index": 7, "text": "So it gives you certain advantages over the pitcher. On the other hand, it's a kind of dangerous position to take because you're more likely to get hit by a ball if you're that close to the plate.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I changed my stance when I came to the major leagues. I moved right up on top of the plate. And I bent over at the waist and just stuck my elbows out over the inner part of the plate. And the st"}
{"id": "692681466", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Frank Robinson", "title": "Remembering Baseball Hall Of Famer Frank Robinson", "question_index": 8, "text": "Is that a record?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it's no doubt about it. I was hit 198 times."}
{"id": "692681466", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Frank Robinson", "title": "Remembering Baseball Hall Of Famer Frank Robinson", "question_index": 9, "text": "Wow", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was for a while until Ron Hunt came along, and he upped the record to 250 times."}
{"id": "692681466", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Frank Robinson", "title": "Remembering Baseball Hall Of Famer Frank Robinson", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was for a while until Ron Hunt came along, and he upped the record to 250 times."}
{"id": "692681466", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Frank Robinson", "title": "Remembering Baseball Hall Of Famer Frank Robinson", "question_index": 11, "text": "What were your tricks for getting out of the way of the ball?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And now Don Baylor has it going - it's close to 300 times right now and counting. But, you know, that was all part of the game. I would be thrown at, knocked down, whatever. And you would get up and j"}
{"id": "692681466", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Frank Robinson", "title": "Remembering Baseball Hall Of Famer Frank Robinson", "question_index": 12, "text": "You have said that when a pitcher threw intentionally at a player on your team, that you would tell your pitcher to try to reciprocate in some way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Recognizing the pitch right away, knowing that it's a fastball rather than a curveball. And certainly if a fastball is up and in, you better get down real quick. And we were taught to roll our front p"}
{"id": "692681466", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Frank Robinson", "title": "Remembering Baseball Hall Of Famer Frank Robinson", "question_index": 13, "text": "Is there a moment in your career that you think of as your greatest moment in baseball?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, at times. If I thought they were doing it intentionally because a hitter had been hot and been hitting the ball pretty good against that pitcher or that ballclub, I have at times early in my car"}
{"id": "692681466", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Frank Robinson", "title": "Remembering Baseball Hall Of Famer Frank Robinson", "question_index": 14, "text": "It's the team that - it's the team in your book that you describe as the only team when you were a player where the black players and the white players hung out together.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think one of the things that really turned my career around was being traded to the Baltimore Orioles."}
{"id": "692681466", "date": "2019-02-08", "guest": "Frank Robinson", "title": "Remembering Baseball Hall Of Famer Frank Robinson", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well, I want to thank you very much for talking with us about your career as a player and a manager. It's been a pleasure. Thank you very much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's true. At Cincinnati, I was treated very well at the ballpark and on the field and around the players when we were together on the road and everything like that. But once we were away from"}
{"id": "694226853", "date": "2019-02-13", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "Journalist: Kleptocrats' 'Ill-Gotten Fortunes' Are Being Parked In U.S. Real Estate", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest Franklin Foer has been writing about the Mueller investigation and connections between Donald Trump, his campaign and Russia for The Atlantic magazine, where he's a national correspondent. And for his latest article, titled \"Russian-Style Kleptocracy Is Infiltrating America,\" he writes about how wealth plundered by Russian oligarchs is being parked in real estate in American cities, including in Trump properties. Foer is nominated for a National Magazine Award for his article about Paul Manafort titled \"American Hustler.\" Manafort is Trump's former campaign chair, whose associates have included Oleg Deripaska - a Russian oligarch - and Konstantin Kilimnik, who, according to the FBI, has ties to a Russian intelligence agency. In August, Manafort was convicted of five counts of tax fraud, two counts of bank fraud and one count of failure to disclose a foreign bank account. In September, Manafort pleaded guilty to witness tampering and conspiracy related to a lobbying and money laundering scheme. And he agreed to cooperate with Mueller. He'll be sentenced for those two crimes on March 13, and for the eight financial crimes, at a later date. Mueller has said Manafort violated his plea deal. Last week, there was a closed-door hearing to determine whether Manafort had intentionally lied to investigators. As we go to broadcast, the judge is expected to file a status report later today under seal. Franklin Foer, welcome back to FRESH AIR. And congratulations on your National Magazine Award nomination. So let's talk about your latest piece, \"Russian-Style Kleptocracy Is Infiltrating America.\" So what do you mean when you say kleptocracy? And when you say that Russian-style kleptocracy is infiltrating America, do you mean we're getting the money of the kleptocrats who are hiding their money here or that America is becoming like a kleptocracy?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "694226853", "date": "2019-02-13", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "Journalist: Kleptocrats' 'Ill-Gotten Fortunes' Are Being Parked In U.S. Real Estate", "question_index": 1, "text": "So let me just stop you here and say, so while the U.S. is applauding, like - you know, Soviet communism is over. The Soviet empire is over and, like, democracy is coming to Russia. This is such a wonderful thing. What's actually happening is that the kleptocracy is forming. People who are now the oligarchs have taken a lot of what had been government money, putting it into their own accounts and then storing the money, like, offshore. Is that an accurate description?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All of the above. So there are an enormous number of fortunes in this world - some of the largest fortunes in this world - that have been amassed through outright theft. We live in this age of smash a"}
{"id": "694226853", "date": "2019-02-13", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "Journalist: Kleptocrats' 'Ill-Gotten Fortunes' Are Being Parked In U.S. Real Estate", "question_index": 2, "text": "So where does the U.S. come in? So now you have these leaders in Russia who have taken money that shouldn't rightly belong to them. It should belong to the government, to the people. So you know, these are the people who became the oligarchs - right? - is kind of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's completely correct. And as you suggest, we could - we were telling ourselves a story about what was happening in the world. And there was this really triumphalist sense that the arc of hi"}
{"id": "694226853", "date": "2019-02-13", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "Journalist: Kleptocrats' 'Ill-Gotten Fortunes' Are Being Parked In U.S. Real Estate", "question_index": 3, "text": "Right. So they're storing their money offshore when possible. Where does the U.S. come in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct."}
{"id": "694226853", "date": "2019-02-13", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "Journalist: Kleptocrats' 'Ill-Gotten Fortunes' Are Being Parked In U.S. Real Estate", "question_index": 4, "text": "But there was a loophole in it. And this loophole - I was so glad you wrote about this. This loophole explained a lot to me. So why don't you describe what the loophole was.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The United States is the most desired destination for that money. Our banks, our real estate markets are places where money is safe, where it can grow quickly. And so it's the place that they want to "}
{"id": "694226853", "date": "2019-02-13", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "Journalist: Kleptocrats' 'Ill-Gotten Fortunes' Are Being Parked In U.S. Real Estate", "question_index": 5, "text": "And that explains a lot of things because so many kleptocrats or oligarchs - whatever you want to call them - have parked their money in American real estate and even in Trump properties. Give us a sense of how much Russian money is invested in Trump properties.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So with the Patriot Act, we focused on the banking sector, and the banking lobbyists were really upset about what we did. And we - the Congress kind of shoved it down, despite that opposition. But if "}
{"id": "694226853", "date": "2019-02-13", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "Journalist: Kleptocrats' 'Ill-Gotten Fortunes' Are Being Parked In U.S. Real Estate", "question_index": 6, "text": "So there might be Russians in those properties.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So in 2017, Reuters did this survey of Trump Organization properties in Florida. And what they found was that of the about 2,000 units in those developments, a third of the units in his properties wer"}
{"id": "694226853", "date": "2019-02-13", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "Journalist: Kleptocrats' 'Ill-Gotten Fortunes' Are Being Parked In U.S. Real Estate", "question_index": 7, "text": "So financially for, say, Russians parking their money in pricey real estate in the U.S., the Russians don't have to pay taxes in Russia. If they want to, they can remain kind of anonymous in terms of the ownership of the properties, especially if it's going through a shell company. But does that hurt the U.S. economy in any way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. There's a journalist who jokes Vladimir Putin could own those properties, and we wouldn't know."}
{"id": "694226853", "date": "2019-02-13", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "Journalist: Kleptocrats' 'Ill-Gotten Fortunes' Are Being Parked In U.S. Real Estate", "question_index": 8, "text": "When you use the word complicit, it implies there's some kind of, like, crime going on.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It hurts the U.S. economy in that it artificially inflates real estate values and makes cities more unlivable for regular people because their rents end up getting dragged up by the top end. So econom"}
{"id": "694226853", "date": "2019-02-13", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "Journalist: Kleptocrats' 'Ill-Gotten Fortunes' Are Being Parked In U.S. Real Estate", "question_index": 9, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Franklin Foer. And his latest article in The Atlantic is titled \"Russian-Style Kleptocracy Is Infiltrating America.\" His article in The Atlantic about Paul Manafort from last year, titled \"American Hustler,\" is a finalist for a 2019 National Magazine Award. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So there is no crime that's actually happening. It's a perfectly legal system. And when I use the word complicity, I think I'm using it in the sense of moral complicity. And I do that intentionally be"}
{"id": "694226853", "date": "2019-02-13", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "Journalist: Kleptocrats' 'Ill-Gotten Fortunes' Are Being Parked In U.S. Real Estate", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Franklin Foer, a national correspondent for The Atlantic. His latest article is called \"Russian-Style Kleptocracy Is Infiltrating America.\" He's written extensively about Paul Manafort and the Mueller investigation. And his article about Paul Manafort from last year, \"American Hustler,\" is nominated as a finalist for a National Magazine Award. So let's talk about some news from last week pertaining to the Mueller investigation. And this is from a closed-door hearing last week that a partial transcript was released from. And the hearing was about whether Paul Manafort had broken his plea agreement by lying or misleading the special counsel's team of prosecutors, and the prosecutors are trying to explain why some of the information that Manafort had misled them about was actually key to the larger Mueller investigation. So what was that information that Manafort had misled them about that's key to the investigation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So there is no crime that's actually happening. It's a perfectly legal system. And when I use the word complicity, I think I'm using it in the sense of moral complicity. And I do that intentionally be"}
{"id": "694226853", "date": "2019-02-13", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "Journalist: Kleptocrats' 'Ill-Gotten Fortunes' Are Being Parked In U.S. Real Estate", "question_index": 11, "text": "Now, the fact that prosecutors said that Manafort lying about his relationship with Kilimnik is central to the Mueller investigation has led a lot of people to speculate which part of that is central to the investigation. And perhaps the key to that has to do with Manafort and Kilimnik communicating repeatedly about a peace plan for Ukraine, in other words, a way to lift the sanctions that the U.S. put on Russia after Russia invaded Crimea and Ukraine.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So they allege that Manafort misled prosecutors about five specific things. A chunk of them are related to his relationship with his Ukrainian translator, a guy called Konstantin Kilimnik. Kilimnik is"}
{"id": "694226853", "date": "2019-02-13", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "Journalist: Kleptocrats' 'Ill-Gotten Fortunes' Are Being Parked In U.S. Real Estate", "question_index": 12, "text": "So we don't know the details about what was communicated between Manafort, Kilimnik and Deripaska, but it is possible - and this is speculation - that it was the opening to discussing a deal - right? - where - like, what could Manafort promise to Deripaska that would make Deripaska whole other than Manafort just paying Deripaska what he owed him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So that's one of the key strands here, is that Kilimnik has aspirations for bringing back their old client, Viktor Yanukovych, to rule in the eastern part of Ukraine, which is now essentially Russian-"}
{"id": "694226853", "date": "2019-02-13", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "Journalist: Kleptocrats' 'Ill-Gotten Fortunes' Are Being Parked In U.S. Real Estate", "question_index": 13, "text": "My guess is Franklin Foer, a national correspondent for The Atlantic. His latest article is titled \"Russian-Style Kleptocracy Is Infiltrating America.\" After we take a short break, we'll talk about a parallel investigation that the Southern District of New York is now doing into the flow of money to three powerful law and lobbying firms that Manafort had recruited seven years ago to help the image of Viktor Yanukovych, who was the Russian-backed president of Ukraine. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So one other part of the story that needs to be mentioned is that Deripaska over the course of the last 10 years has really needed to get back into Vladimir Putin's favor because after having been Put"}
{"id": "694226853", "date": "2019-02-13", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "Journalist: Kleptocrats' 'Ill-Gotten Fortunes' Are Being Parked In U.S. Real Estate", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Franklin Foer, a national correspondent for The Atlantic who's been writing about the Mueller investigation and connections between Trump, his campaign and Russia. And Foer's latest article, titled \"Russian-Style Kleptocracy Is Infiltrating America,\" he writes about how wealth plundered by Russian oligarchs is being parked in real estate in American cities, including in Trump properties. Foer is nominated for a National Magazine Award for his article about Paul Manafort titled \"American Hustler.\" Manafort is Trump's former campaign chair, whose associates have included Oleg Deripaska, a Russian oligarch, and Konstantin Kilimnik, who according to the FBI has ties to a Russian intelligence agency. Manafort has been convicted on eight counts related to his financial dealings, and he's pleaded guilty to witness tampering and conspiracy related to a lobbying and money laundering scheme. And he agreed to cooperate with Mueller. One of the parallel investigations that the Southern District of New York is now investigating is the flow of money to three powerful law and lobbying firms, firms that Manafort had recruited seven years ago to help the image of Viktor Yanukovych, who was the Russian-backed president of Ukraine. And you had written about this last year in your Manafort article, the one that's nominated for a National Magazine Award. And these three firms are Mercury Public Affairs, the Podesta Group and Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher and Flom. So why is this an important story that there was a flow of money to these firms that Manafort had recruited?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So one other part of the story that needs to be mentioned is that Deripaska over the course of the last 10 years has really needed to get back into Vladimir Putin's favor because after having been Put"}
{"id": "694226853", "date": "2019-02-13", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "Journalist: Kleptocrats' 'Ill-Gotten Fortunes' Are Being Parked In U.S. Real Estate", "question_index": 15, "text": "Paul Manafort is scheduled to be sentenced March 13th. What are you going to be looking for on that day?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So one of the dangers of dealing with kleptocracy is that it lowers moral standards. And we're in this era where competition in the marketplace for law, public affairs is seen as so cutthroat that you"}
{"id": "694226853", "date": "2019-02-13", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "Journalist: Kleptocrats' 'Ill-Gotten Fortunes' Are Being Parked In U.S. Real Estate", "question_index": 16, "text": "Do you think there's the chance that President Trump would actually pardon Manafort? And do you think that Manafort is thinking that's a possibility?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm - you know, I think that there's a lot that's telegraphed in this last hearing, where the judge in that case - Amy Berman Jackson - says that there are incidents of alleged lying that the pr"}
{"id": "694226853", "date": "2019-02-13", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "Journalist: Kleptocrats' 'Ill-Gotten Fortunes' Are Being Parked In U.S. Real Estate", "question_index": 17, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Franklin Foer, a national correspondent for The Atlantic. His latest piece is called \"Russian-Style Kleptocracy Is Infiltrating America.\" He's written extensively about the Mueller investigation and about Paul Manafort, Trump's former campaign chair, and Manafort's connections to Ukraine and Russia. We'll be back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Manafort seems to pretty clearly be thinking that's a possibility. That's what Mueller's team is asserting - you know, nakedly asserting. There's no question that that's what they're alleging he's bee"}
{"id": "694226853", "date": "2019-02-13", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "Journalist: Kleptocrats' 'Ill-Gotten Fortunes' Are Being Parked In U.S. Real Estate", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Franklin Foer, a national correspondent for The Atlantic. His latest piece is called \"Russian-Style Kleptocracy Is Infiltrating America.\" He's written extensively about the Mueller investigation and about Trump's former campaign chief Paul Manafort and Manafort's connections to Ukraine and Russia. What are the questions you would most like to see answered about Trump connections to Russia?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Manafort seems to pretty clearly be thinking that's a possibility. That's what Mueller's team is asserting - you know, nakedly asserting. There's no question that that's what they're alleging he's bee"}
{"id": "694226853", "date": "2019-02-13", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "Journalist: Kleptocrats' 'Ill-Gotten Fortunes' Are Being Parked In U.S. Real Estate", "question_index": 19, "text": "So you've been covering Russian connections to Trump since the spring of 2016, which is pretty early in the game. This is during the campaign. What got you on to the story, and what was the first part of the story that you wrote about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just want to know."}
{"id": "694226853", "date": "2019-02-13", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "Journalist: Kleptocrats' 'Ill-Gotten Fortunes' Are Being Parked In U.S. Real Estate", "question_index": 20, "text": "It must kill you to have clues about things but not have the answers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it was actually Paul Manafort. So when Manafort came on to the campaign in April 2016, I was intrigued by his relationship to various Ukrainian oligarchs. And my grandmother, who recently passed aw"}
{"id": "694226853", "date": "2019-02-13", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "Journalist: Kleptocrats' 'Ill-Gotten Fortunes' Are Being Parked In U.S. Real Estate", "question_index": 21, "text": "Are you expecting to get a lot of answers from the Mueller report? I've heard various things about how much we really will learn, how much he will reveal outside of just the indictments that he issues.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It really - sometimes it feels - it almost physically hurts to kind of live in this state where, you know, you think you're seeing something, and it's terrible if it's true, but you don't know if it's"}
{"id": "694226853", "date": "2019-02-13", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "Journalist: Kleptocrats' 'Ill-Gotten Fortunes' Are Being Parked In U.S. Real Estate", "question_index": 22, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Franklin Foer, national correspondent for The Atlantic. And his latest article is called \"Russian-Style Kleptocracy Is Infiltrating America.\" He's written about Paul Manafort and the Mueller investigation. And his article about Manafort from last year, \"American Hustler,\" is a finalist for a 2019 National Magazine Award. We're going to take a short break. Then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And we can't even be sure that we'll - what version of the final Mueller report we'll be permitted to see by the Justice Department. But I think that it'll - I think he'll - it - I think in the"}
{"id": "694226853", "date": "2019-02-13", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "Journalist: Kleptocrats' 'Ill-Gotten Fortunes' Are Being Parked In U.S. Real Estate", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Franklin Foer, a national correspondent for The Atlantic. And he's written extensively about the Mueller investigation and about Paul Manafort and his connections to Ukraine and Russia. His latest piece, Foer's latest piece, is titled \"Russian-Style Kleptocracy Is Infiltrating America.\" So the way that you first got on to this story of possible connections between the Trump campaign and Russia was that your grandmother was from Ukraine. And Russia had invaded Ukraine. The president of Ukraine was a Russian-backed president Viktor Yanukovych who Paul Manafort had represented. That was his - one of his doorways into Ukraine and part of his major connections to Russia. So your grandmother died in December. You wrote a beautiful tribute to her in The Atlantic. She survived World War II - your family is Jewish. She survived World War II by hiding and by walking. Like, give us a sense of how far she walked to try to evade the Nazis.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And we can't even be sure that we'll - what version of the final Mueller report we'll be permitted to see by the Justice Department. But I think that it'll - I think he'll - it - I think in the"}
{"id": "694226853", "date": "2019-02-13", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "Journalist: Kleptocrats' 'Ill-Gotten Fortunes' Are Being Parked In U.S. Real Estate", "question_index": 24, "text": "How old were you when you found out what she had endured during World War II?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So my grandmother was a teenager, and she'd been a communist. And she knew that - she just had this intuition - she always described it as an intuition - that life was about to get miserable for herse"}
{"id": "694226853", "date": "2019-02-13", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "Journalist: Kleptocrats' 'Ill-Gotten Fortunes' Are Being Parked In U.S. Real Estate", "question_index": 25, "text": "Did it frighten you to hear these stories?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was in about fifth grade. So the Holocaust was something that was never spoken in my mother's - when my mother was a child. There were all these secrets. There were all of these traumas that were ke"}
{"id": "694226853", "date": "2019-02-13", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "Journalist: Kleptocrats' 'Ill-Gotten Fortunes' Are Being Parked In U.S. Real Estate", "question_index": 26, "text": "When you wrote your remembrance of your grandmother after she died, you mentioned in the piece that the backdrop for this was the massacre in the synagogue in Pittsburgh. And I think for a lot of people who are the grandchildren of Holocaust survivors, the Holocaust seemed kind of in the distance - you know, growing up safely in the United States. And I wonder what those two - what the collision of those two things - your grandmother's death after surviving the Holocaust and the massacre at the synagogue in Pittsburgh - what the collision of the two brought out in you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It didn't really because - well, you know, there's this field of epigenetics, which is about the ways in which experiences can be passed down and the ways in which trauma can be handed down from gener"}
{"id": "694226853", "date": "2019-02-13", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "Journalist: Kleptocrats' 'Ill-Gotten Fortunes' Are Being Parked In U.S. Real Estate", "question_index": 27, "text": "Well, I'm sorry for your loss.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So one of the privileges and burdens of being my grandmother's grandchild was this feeling of always being connected to the history of the Jewish people into this master narrative of suffering and red"}
{"id": "694226853", "date": "2019-02-13", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "Journalist: Kleptocrats' 'Ill-Gotten Fortunes' Are Being Parked In U.S. Real Estate", "question_index": 28, "text": "Franklin Foer, thank you so much for talking with us. And congratulations again on your nomination for a National Magazine Award.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "694226853", "date": "2019-02-13", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "Journalist: Kleptocrats' 'Ill-Gotten Fortunes' Are Being Parked In U.S. Real Estate", "question_index": 29, "text": "Franklin Foer is a national correspondent for The Atlantic. His latest article is titled \"Russian-Style Kleptocracy Is Infiltrating America.\" His article \"American Hustler\" about Paul Manafort is nominated for a 2019 National Magazine Award. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "694226853", "date": "2019-02-13", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "Journalist: Kleptocrats' 'Ill-Gotten Fortunes' Are Being Parked In U.S. Real Estate", "question_index": 30, "text": "The BBC series \"Dynasties\" follows five groups of animals for up to two years, revealing their social relationships, kinship, affection and sometimes deadly power struggles. We'll hear from executive producer Michael Gunton. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A tempestuous younger male with an aggressive streak."}
{"id": "694226853", "date": "2019-02-13", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "Journalist: Kleptocrats' 'Ill-Gotten Fortunes' Are Being Parked In U.S. Real Estate", "question_index": 31, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our associate producer for digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A tempestuous younger male with an aggressive streak."}
{"id": "692634968", "date": "2019-02-15", "guest": "Ethan Hawke", "title": "Director Paul Schrader Tests His Faith In 'First Reformed'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Paul Schrader, welcome to FRESH AIR. And congratulations on this film. I really love this film. Thank you for making it. The movie is so much about living with hope and despair and whether faith can enable you to deal with despair and what happens if despair starts to win. Paul Schrader, what was the kernel of the idea for this film? What came to you first? Was it the idea of dealing with the environmental crisis or the crisis of faith?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Ernest) Who could know the mind of God? But we can choose a righteous life - belief, forgiveness, grace covers us all. I believe that."}
{"id": "692634968", "date": "2019-02-15", "guest": "Ethan Hawke", "title": "Director Paul Schrader Tests His Faith In 'First Reformed'", "question_index": 1, "text": "You were a religious young man. You grew up in the Dutch Reformed Church. You proselytized when you were young. But I guess when you when you left the church, you really left it. You went to the other side", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ironically, Terry, the kernel was an intellectual decision. I had, as a young man, as a film critic, written about spiritual films but claimed that I would never make one. It wasn't me. It wasn't what"}
{"id": "692634968", "date": "2019-02-15", "guest": "Ethan Hawke", "title": "Director Paul Schrader Tests His Faith In 'First Reformed'", "question_index": 2, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ironically, Terry, the kernel was an intellectual decision. I had, as a young man, as a film critic, written about spiritual films but claimed that I would never make one. It wasn't me. It wasn't what"}
{"id": "692634968", "date": "2019-02-15", "guest": "Ethan Hawke", "title": "Director Paul Schrader Tests His Faith In 'First Reformed'", "question_index": 3, "text": "What were the pastors like who you knew?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you have to - you know, the only way you get out of an environment like that is the way a bullet gets out of a gun. And so there's a lot of impetus. You know, I was in Grand Rapids, Mich., the C"}
{"id": "692634968", "date": "2019-02-15", "guest": "Ethan Hawke", "title": "Director Paul Schrader Tests His Faith In 'First Reformed'", "question_index": 4, "text": "So what would you tell your pastor that you wouldn't tell your parents?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do remember a couple episodes where I did go to the parsonage, you know, went to counseling. And they were always very considerate and generous because, you know, for a lot of Americans, the pastor "}
{"id": "692634968", "date": "2019-02-15", "guest": "Ethan Hawke", "title": "Director Paul Schrader Tests His Faith In 'First Reformed'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Well, I'm going to further the comparison", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just the anger you feel. And that was an issue for me as a young man, just wanting to do something - an explosion. A line in \"Taxi Driver\" all those years ago where Travis Bickle says, I just want to "}
{"id": "692634968", "date": "2019-02-15", "guest": "Ethan Hawke", "title": "Director Paul Schrader Tests His Faith In 'First Reformed'", "question_index": 6, "text": ". At the very beginning of the film, the pastor has started a journal. And he writes in the journal, and Ethan Hawke does the voiceover. And he says, the journal has some thoughts I confide in God when He's listening. It's a form of prayer without prostration. If only I could pray. So I want to compare that a little bit with one of the \"Taxi Driver\" journals. So this is from the soundtrack of \"Taxi Driver.\" And to refresh everyone's memory or if you haven't seen the movie, you know, Travis Bickle is a Vietnam war veteran who's come home. He has a job driving a taxi. He drives around the streets of Manhattan, through Times Square and looks out, and what he sees is sleaze. And he finds it all very disturbing. So here's part of Travis Bickle's diary from \"Taxi Driver.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just the anger you feel. And that was an issue for me as a young man, just wanting to do something - an explosion. A line in \"Taxi Driver\" all those years ago where Travis Bickle says, I just want to "}
{"id": "692634968", "date": "2019-02-15", "guest": "Ethan Hawke", "title": "Director Paul Schrader Tests His Faith In 'First Reformed'", "question_index": 7, "text": "I hear so many echoes in \"First Reformed\" from that \"Taxi Driver\" journal. Travis is obsessed with all of the garbage on the street, meaning, like, the people who he sees as garbage, the people who he sees as the animals, the sleaze. Someday a real rain will come along and wash the scum off the streets. Of course, in your new movie, it's the environmental crisis. It's not - it's like miles and miles and miles of junked tires and empty plastic bottles and trash fires and oil pollution. And God's lonely man - that could be the title for your new movie, God's lonely man. You know, Travis is lonely. That's one of the themes of the movie, and it kind of drives him to the good he tries to do and to the bad that he does. So I was wondering if you were thinking of, you know, the Travis diaries as you were writing the Reverend Toller diaries.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Travis Bickle) May 10 - thank God for the rain, which has helped wash away the garbage and the trash off the sidewalks. I'm working long hours now, six days a week, sometimes seven days a week. It"}
{"id": "692634968", "date": "2019-02-15", "guest": "Ethan Hawke", "title": "Director Paul Schrader Tests His Faith In 'First Reformed'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Paul Schrader, you proselytized when you were young. I mean, you went door to door, didn't you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not too much. And I did a film in between those two called \"Light Sleeper,\" which is also a diary film. And that's a drug dealer is writing in his diary, the same composition book as the other two. Bu"}
{"id": "692634968", "date": "2019-02-15", "guest": "Ethan Hawke", "title": "Director Paul Schrader Tests His Faith In 'First Reformed'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Ask them what?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I went through a phase where - my father was a frustrated minister. He had to drop out because of the depression. So I was raised to fill that slot. And so it came quite naturally to go out, you"}
{"id": "692634968", "date": "2019-02-15", "guest": "Ethan Hawke", "title": "Director Paul Schrader Tests His Faith In 'First Reformed'", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Have you met Jesus Christ as your Lord and savior? You know, that's a good place to start. And, you know, it's amazing how many people will actually talk to a kid who wouldn't talk to an adult. And my"}
{"id": "692634968", "date": "2019-02-15", "guest": "Ethan Hawke", "title": "Director Paul Schrader Tests His Faith In 'First Reformed'", "question_index": 11, "text": "What's a refutation text?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I remember watching this, so that was kind of the environment."}
{"id": "692634968", "date": "2019-02-15", "guest": "Ethan Hawke", "title": "Director Paul Schrader Tests His Faith In 'First Reformed'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Paul Schrader, you became, like, an antiwar activist in the late-'60s. And I should mention here that, you know, both Travis Bickle in \"Taxi Driver\" is a veteran, and in the new movie \"First Reformed,\" Ethan Hawke's character, the minister - his family had a tradition of being in the military. He talked his son into going into the military, and then his son was killed in Iraq after six months. So were you afraid - were you at risk of being drafted? Did you not want to be drafted?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A refutation text, you know, says why you're wrong. You know, the Bible is nothing but refutation texts, as we've learned. You know, you can use almost any text to counteract any other text."}
{"id": "692634968", "date": "2019-02-15", "guest": "Ethan Hawke", "title": "Director Paul Schrader Tests His Faith In 'First Reformed'", "question_index": 13, "text": "Wow. That's really interesting. So your mother strongly did not want you to be drafted and go to Vietnam.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was asthmatic and - even though our family was very patriotic. But I had to go to Detroit for the physical. My mother took me to the - a post office where the bus was. And my father didn't come, and"}
{"id": "692634968", "date": "2019-02-15", "guest": "Ethan Hawke", "title": "Director Paul Schrader Tests His Faith In 'First Reformed'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Because...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, but she couldn't say those words."}
{"id": "696593231", "date": "2019-02-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How 2 Conspiracy Theorists Shaped Trump's Worldview (And Why They Matter To Mueller)", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Two of the people under investigation by Robert Mueller - Roger Stone and Jerome Corsi - are conspiracy theorists who believe the deep state is trying to take over America. Stone is a self-described dirty trickster from the Nixon era, who also co-founded a lobbying firm with Paul Manafort in the 1980s and has been close to Donald Trump for more than 30 years. Corsi is one of the fathers of birtherism and the swift boat campaign that tried to discredit John Kerry during his presidential run by accusing him of lying about his record in Vietnam. My guest Jeffrey Toobin covers legal affairs for The New Yorker. His new article is titled \"Roger Stone's And Jerome Corsi's Time In The Barrel.\" He writes that Stone and Corsi came together to support Donald Trump during the 2016 presidential campaign. The Mueller investigators have questioned both men about their contacts with WikiLeaks and their possible involvement in the release of emails stolen from the chair of Hillary Clinton's campaign, John Podesta. Stone has been indicted by prosecutors for witness tampering, obstruction and five counts of lying. Mueller's team has questioned Corsi. But as of yet, he's not been indicted. There are now indications that Mueller will turn his report to the new Attorney General William Barr as early as next week. Toobin says if this happens, Roger Stone's case would be formally turned over to the U.S. attorney general in Washington, D.C., who will then try the case. As we go to broadcast, Roger Stone faces a hearing later today regarding whether he broke the terms of his bail this week. Jeffrey Toobin, welcome back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "696593231", "date": "2019-02-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How 2 Conspiracy Theorists Shaped Trump's Worldview (And Why They Matter To Mueller)", "question_index": 1, "text": "Let's start with what we learned from last Friday's new court filing from the prosecutors in the special counsel investigation that showed for the first time that they have evidence that Roger Stone had communicated with WikiLeaks and also with Russian intelligence. So sum up for us what we learned.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hi, Terry."}
{"id": "696593231", "date": "2019-02-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How 2 Conspiracy Theorists Shaped Trump's Worldview (And Why They Matter To Mueller)", "question_index": 2, "text": "So does this new filing indicate that there was collusion between the Trump campaign and Russia?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you have to remember why this all matters. And the reason it matters is that WikiLeaks was one of the ways the Russian government, Russian interests, tried to manipulate the 2016 campaign. And o"}
{"id": "696593231", "date": "2019-02-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How 2 Conspiracy Theorists Shaped Trump's Worldview (And Why They Matter To Mueller)", "question_index": 3, "text": "So your article is about Roger Stone and about Jerome Corsi. Tell us what Corsi's role has been in the WikiLeaks story so far, like, to our knowledge.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it certainly suggests that there might be some there. If there were proof that Stone, in some way, encouraged or participated with or assisted WikiLeaks in getting out these very damaging, hacke"}
{"id": "696593231", "date": "2019-02-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How 2 Conspiracy Theorists Shaped Trump's Worldview (And Why They Matter To Mueller)", "question_index": 4, "text": "In your article, you write that Roger Stone helped define Donald Trump's obsessions and Jerome Corsi justify them. So let's start with Stone. What obsessions did Stone help Trump define?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, let me just tell you who Jerome Corsi is. You know, Jerome Corsi is a kind of semi-failed academic, semi-failed semi-successful businessman, who, in middle age, discovered this talent for writin"}
{"id": "696593231", "date": "2019-02-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How 2 Conspiracy Theorists Shaped Trump's Worldview (And Why They Matter To Mueller)", "question_index": 5, "text": "But in terms of Trump's obsessions, one of Stone's obsessions is the deep state. And that's one of Trump's obsessions, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think at this late date, Roger Stone can qualify as a legendary figure in American politics. He's been around for so long and has touched so many different campaigns, scandals, outrages that h"}
{"id": "696593231", "date": "2019-02-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How 2 Conspiracy Theorists Shaped Trump's Worldview (And Why They Matter To Mueller)", "question_index": 6, "text": "And Jerome Corsi is deep into the deep state as well. And you include a quote from one of Corsi's recent books about the deep state. And he says, the U.S., under the deep state masters, has begun to descend into a political hell that I previously thought could only happen under Hitler's Gestapo, Stalin's KGB or Mao's Cultural Revolution.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct. The deep state - and I think, you know, a seminal figure in both of their lives - in fact, the person who introduced Stone and Trump was Roy Cohn, the notorious New York lawyer who had been c"}
{"id": "696593231", "date": "2019-02-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How 2 Conspiracy Theorists Shaped Trump's Worldview (And Why They Matter To Mueller)", "question_index": 7, "text": "Thank you for pointing that out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As you can tell, Corsi has a gift for understatement."}
{"id": "696593231", "date": "2019-02-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How 2 Conspiracy Theorists Shaped Trump's Worldview (And Why They Matter To Mueller)", "question_index": 8, "text": "No, I'm trying to capture that a little bit in my reading", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you..."}
{"id": "696593231", "date": "2019-02-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How 2 Conspiracy Theorists Shaped Trump's Worldview (And Why They Matter To Mueller)", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you..."}
{"id": "696593231", "date": "2019-02-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How 2 Conspiracy Theorists Shaped Trump's Worldview (And Why They Matter To Mueller)", "question_index": 10, "text": "My - and he goes on to say, my particular Kafka-esque nightmare is nothing more than punishment for the crime of being a vocal supporter of Donald Trump and for having worked with Roger Stone to promote Trump's 2016 presidential campaign. I am with God. Are you? So, I mean, he's saying, basically, that the deep state is trying to punish him just for being a Trump supporter.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "696593231", "date": "2019-02-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How 2 Conspiracy Theorists Shaped Trump's Worldview (And Why They Matter To Mueller)", "question_index": 11, "text": "And Stone has his own conspiracy theory about the Mueller investigation, which he told you. Would you share that with us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely. And the president is saying that the deep state is after him. And I think you can see that both explicitly. I think the president has talked about the deep state. But also, the way he "}
{"id": "696593231", "date": "2019-02-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How 2 Conspiracy Theorists Shaped Trump's Worldview (And Why They Matter To Mueller)", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, there's plenty more here to talk about. But at this point, we have to take a short break. So let me reintroduce you. My guest is Jeffrey Toobin, who writes about legal affairs for The New Yorker and is CNN's chief legal correspondent. His latest New Yorker article is titled, \"Roger Stone's And Jerome Corsi's Time In The Barrel: Why The Mismatched Operatives Matter To Trump And To The Mueller Investigation.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "don't - you know, I think Roger, too, has a gift for understatement, as you can tell. And so I don't know if he believes that literally, but he certainly thinks that the deep state is out to get Presi"}
{"id": "696593231", "date": "2019-02-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How 2 Conspiracy Theorists Shaped Trump's Worldview (And Why They Matter To Mueller)", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jeffrey Toobin, CNN's chief legal correspondent who also covers legal affairs for The New Yorker. His latest New Yorker article is about Jerome Corsi and Roger Stone, two conspiracy theorists and political operatives who became part of Trump's orbit. They're being investigated by Robert Mueller for their involvement in the WikiLeaks release of emails during the 2016 presidential campaign. The emails were stolen by Russians who hacked into accounts of the Democratic National Committee and of John Podesta, Hillary Clinton's campaign chair. Now, Stone has prided himself on being, like, a dirty trickster, say, during the Nixon era. But with Corsi, my impression with Corsi is his modus operandi has always been through writing books about his conspiracy theories. So he wrote a book about John Kerry. This was his \"Swift Boat\" book, basically saying Kerry just lied about getting Purple Hearts in Vietnam, Kerry lied about his courageous actions in Vietnam and other people on Swift Boats know that Kerry lied about it. With Obama, of course, he wrote a book whose title kind of says it all, \"Where's The Birth Certificate? The Case That Barack Obama Is Not Eligible To Be President.\" He hates the Clintons. But his mode of dealing with this has been to write things. But my impression is that with WikiLeaks and with the Trump campaign that he crossed over, perhaps, into actually taking actions", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "don't - you know, I think Roger, too, has a gift for understatement, as you can tell. And so I don't know if he believes that literally, but he certainly thinks that the deep state is out to get Presi"}
{"id": "696593231", "date": "2019-02-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How 2 Conspiracy Theorists Shaped Trump's Worldview (And Why They Matter To Mueller)", "question_index": 14, "text": "And when you say this project, you mean both the Trump campaign and WikiLeaks.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And that's what is so unusual, frankly, and a little bit comical about what went on. Because Stone and Corsi, even though their politics are similar, their personalities and their demeanor are "}
{"id": "696593231", "date": "2019-02-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How 2 Conspiracy Theorists Shaped Trump's Worldview (And Why They Matter To Mueller)", "question_index": 15, "text": "Yeah. So one of the things Corsi did - and I suppose you could say this was research for one of his books, but - he traveled to Kenya with Arizona sheriff Joe Arpaio, who was a Trump ally. And Trump recently pardoned Arpaio. So they went to Kenya to get evidence that, you know, Obama was really born there and that he's therefore - you know, he lied about his birth certificate, and he's not eligible to be president. So it's just interesting how all these people align. You know, that Joe Arpaio is part of the Corsi story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Both. Yes."}
{"id": "696593231", "date": "2019-02-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How 2 Conspiracy Theorists Shaped Trump's Worldview (And Why They Matter To Mueller)", "question_index": 16, "text": "How did Jerome Corsi and Roger Stone first connect with each other?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. I mean, this is sort of the fever swamp of the \"alt-right.\" You know, for whom, you know, Breitbart is like The London Times in comparison. I mean, this is really some disgraceful stuff, n"}
{"id": "696593231", "date": "2019-02-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How 2 Conspiracy Theorists Shaped Trump's Worldview (And Why They Matter To Mueller)", "question_index": 17, "text": "That Lyndon Johnson orchestrated the assassination of JFK?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, given that they are both conspiracy theorists, it's probably not surprising is that what brought them together is sort of the biggest conspiracy theory of all, which is the Kennedy assassination"}
{"id": "696593231", "date": "2019-02-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How 2 Conspiracy Theorists Shaped Trump's Worldview (And Why They Matter To Mueller)", "question_index": 18, "text": "What made them decide they should work together on behalf of Donald Trump's campaign?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct - so that he could become president himself. Corsi's book is more vague and says - well, there was a conspiracy of what he would later call the deep state - the CIA, the Mafia, you know, all s"}
{"id": "696593231", "date": "2019-02-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How 2 Conspiracy Theorists Shaped Trump's Worldview (And Why They Matter To Mueller)", "question_index": 19, "text": "So Stone had already known Trump. He met Trump in the '80s. Did Corsi already know Trump?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was their support for Donald Trump's campaign and the fact that - specifically, you know, they had been talking through the spring. But then in July, these - the first tranche of WikiLeaks em"}
{"id": "696593231", "date": "2019-02-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How 2 Conspiracy Theorists Shaped Trump's Worldview (And Why They Matter To Mueller)", "question_index": 20, "text": "My guest is Jeffrey Toobin, a New Yorker staff writer who covers legal affairs. His new article is titled \"Roger Stone's And Jerome Corsi's Time In The Barrel.\" Toobin is also CNN's chief legal correspondent. After a break, one of the things we'll talk about is what Toobin thinks might be the most bizarre part of Stone's upcoming trial. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He did - not as well, but he definitely knew him. They had met years earlier when Corsi was a frequent guest at the Plaza Hotel in New York, which Trump owned for a time. But they really got to know e"}
{"id": "696593231", "date": "2019-02-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How 2 Conspiracy Theorists Shaped Trump's Worldview (And Why They Matter To Mueller)", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Jeffrey Toobin, who covers legal affairs for The New Yorker. His latest article is titled \"Roger Stone's And Jerome Corsi's Time In The Barrel.\" Stone and Corsi are conspiracy theorists who believe the deep state is trying to take over America. Toobin writes that Stone and Corsi came together to support Donald Trump during the 2016 presidential campaign. Robert Mueller's team has been investigating their contacts with WikiLeaks and their possible involvement in the release of hacked emails stolen from the chair of Hillary Clinton's campaign, John Podesta. Stone has been indicted by prosecutors for witness tampering, obstruction and five counts of lying. Toobin says that after WikiLeaks released hacked emails from the National Democratic Committee during the 2016 presidential campaign and Julian Assange indicated there were more hacked emails to come, Stone and Corsi worked together to find out what else Assange had. So one of the things Roger Stone tries to do is to persuade Jerome Corsi - and this is in July of 2016, during the campaign - to go to Julian Assange at the Ecuadorian Embassy in London, where Assange was taking refuge, and get the pending WikiLeaks emails, the second batch that Assange said he would release. So tell us more about what Stone wanted Corsi to do and whether Corsi actually did it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He did - not as well, but he definitely knew him. They had met years earlier when Corsi was a frequent guest at the Plaza Hotel in New York, which Trump owned for a time. But they really got to know e"}
{"id": "696593231", "date": "2019-02-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How 2 Conspiracy Theorists Shaped Trump's Worldview (And Why They Matter To Mueller)", "question_index": 22, "text": "And what do you know about some of those emails?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the question of course was, how do you find out what Julian Assange and WikiLeaks knows? And one approach would be, go ask Julian Assange. And Julian Assange has been famously holed up in the Ec"}
{"id": "696593231", "date": "2019-02-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How 2 Conspiracy Theorists Shaped Trump's Worldview (And Why They Matter To Mueller)", "question_index": 23, "text": "Of course, he predicts that, too. Corsi emailed Stone - I think it was also that same day - August 21st - and said, word is friend in embassy plans two more dumps. Impact planned to be very damaging. And the friend in embassy would be Julian Assange, and the dumps would be WikiLeaks' email dumps.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the most celebrated tweet, or most notorious tweet, of the 2016 campaign comes from Stone on August 21st when he tweets - and I'm paraphrasing - soon it will be Podesta's time in the barrel. And"}
{"id": "696593231", "date": "2019-02-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How 2 Conspiracy Theorists Shaped Trump's Worldview (And Why They Matter To Mueller)", "question_index": 24, "text": "What are their answers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that's right. So this core question that they are - you know, there's a lot of funny things about Corsi and Stone, who are sort of semi-ridiculous figures. But it is a very serious question about "}
{"id": "696593231", "date": "2019-02-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How 2 Conspiracy Theorists Shaped Trump's Worldview (And Why They Matter To Mueller)", "question_index": 25, "text": "Corsi and Stone have had a falling out. What is it about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, as for Stone, he says, when I say it was Podesta's time in the barrel, I was actually talking about John and Tony Podesta, his brother, who was a big-time lobbyist. And what I meant by time in t"}
{"id": "696593231", "date": "2019-02-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How 2 Conspiracy Theorists Shaped Trump's Worldview (And Why They Matter To Mueller)", "question_index": 26, "text": "Meanwhile, Stone called you to say Corsi is certifiably insane.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, to know their personalities is to know that there is certainly going to be a falling out at some point because they are both very combustible personalities. Basically, what happened was, as they"}
{"id": "696593231", "date": "2019-02-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How 2 Conspiracy Theorists Shaped Trump's Worldview (And Why They Matter To Mueller)", "question_index": 27, "text": "OK. Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. And one of the things we'll talk about is where things stand in Mueller's investigation with Stone and with Corsi. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jeffrey Toobin, who writes about legal affairs for The New Yorker and is CNN's chief legal correspondent. His latest New Yorker article is titled \"Roger Stone's And Jerome Corsi's Time In The Barrel: Why The Mismatched Operatives Matter To Trump - And To The Mueller Investigation.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Again, with - Roger Stone's character is to gift for understatement. He said that Corsi was certifiably insane. Yeah."}
{"id": "696593231", "date": "2019-02-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How 2 Conspiracy Theorists Shaped Trump's Worldview (And Why They Matter To Mueller)", "question_index": 28, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jeffrey Toobin, CNN's chief legal correspondent who also covers legal affairs for The New Yorker. His latest article is about Roger Stone and Jerome Corsi, two conspiracy theorists and political operatives who became part of Trump's orbit. They're being investigated by Robert Mueller for their involvement in the WikiLeaks release of emails during the 2016 presidential campaign. The emails were stolen by Russians who hacked into accounts of the Democratic National Committee and John Podesta. Hillary Clinton's campaign chair. Stone has been indicted on seven counts by Robert Mueller, including five counts of lying, one count of obstruction and one of witness tampering. What about Corsi? Where do things stand with him? What specifically is he being investigated for, and has he been charged with anything?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Again, with - Roger Stone's character is to gift for understatement. He said that Corsi was certifiably insane. Yeah."}
{"id": "696593231", "date": "2019-02-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How 2 Conspiracy Theorists Shaped Trump's Worldview (And Why They Matter To Mueller)", "question_index": 29, "text": "So Roger Stone, who was indicted on seven counts, is out on bail now. But this week, he was called back to court by Judge Amy Berman Jackson for an Instagram post that he posted", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well it's, a very peculiar situation with Corsi. Corsi gave several interviews to the Mueller office, FBI agents and prosecutors there. He also testified in the grand jury. In November, he was present"}
{"id": "696593231", "date": "2019-02-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How 2 Conspiracy Theorists Shaped Trump's Worldview (And Why They Matter To Mueller)", "question_index": 30, "text": "on Tuesday. Would you describe it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well it's, a very peculiar situation with Corsi. Corsi gave several interviews to the Mueller office, FBI agents and prosecutors there. He also testified in the grand jury. In November, he was present"}
{"id": "696593231", "date": "2019-02-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How 2 Conspiracy Theorists Shaped Trump's Worldview (And Why They Matter To Mueller)", "question_index": 31, "text": "Yeah. We're recording this before the scheduled 2:30 hearing. So when our listeners hear this, they might know more about the outcome than we know now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, Roger Stone - you know, part of his M.O. is being outrageous and calling people names and, you know, being vulgar and being rude and being obnoxious. And that's one of the things that "}
{"id": "696593231", "date": "2019-02-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How 2 Conspiracy Theorists Shaped Trump's Worldview (And Why They Matter To Mueller)", "question_index": 32, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jeffrey Toobin, who writes about legal affairs for The New Yorker and is CNN's chief legal correspondent. His latest New Yorker article is titled \"Roger Stone's And Jerome Corsi's Time In The Barrel: Why The Mismatched Operatives Matter To Trump And To The Mueller Investigation.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And then there are two basic possibilities. One is that the judge will tighten and clarify the gag order that the lawyers were already under to tell Roger Stone - even though Roger Stone is a m"}
{"id": "696593231", "date": "2019-02-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How 2 Conspiracy Theorists Shaped Trump's Worldview (And Why They Matter To Mueller)", "question_index": 33, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jeffrey Toobin, CNN's chief legal correspondent, who also covers legal affairs for The New Yorker. His latest article is about Roger Stone and Jerome Corsi, two conspiracy theorists and political operatives who became part of Trump's orbit. They're being investigated by Robert Mueller for their involvement in the WikiLeaks release of emails during the 2016 presidential campaign. The emails were stolen by Russians, who hacked into accounts of the Democratic National Committee and John Podesta, Hillary Clinton's campaign chair. You write in your article that the weirdest part of the Stone trial will probably involve Randy Credico testimony. And we're talking about the larger trial not the date about whether bail will be revoked or not. So tell us all about who Randy Credico is and how he figures into the story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And then there are two basic possibilities. One is that the judge will tighten and clarify the gag order that the lawyers were already under to tell Roger Stone - even though Roger Stone is a m"}
{"id": "696593231", "date": "2019-02-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How 2 Conspiracy Theorists Shaped Trump's Worldview (And Why They Matter To Mueller)", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, every time I think about Randy Credico in this story, I think of those old ads on TV, where the guy screams at the TV, but wait. There's more..."}
{"id": "696593231", "date": "2019-02-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How 2 Conspiracy Theorists Shaped Trump's Worldview (And Why They Matter To Mueller)", "question_index": 35, "text": "And this is where the witness tampering comes in.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Because Randy Credico's role in this is almost too bizarre to be believed. Randy Credico is a sort of fringe media figure from New York. He had - he's been a standup comedian. He's had a radio show"}
{"id": "696593231", "date": "2019-02-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How 2 Conspiracy Theorists Shaped Trump's Worldview (And Why They Matter To Mueller)", "question_index": 36, "text": "And then there was also \"The Godfather\" quote threat.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct. That - the witness who was allegedly tampered with was Randy Credico."}
{"id": "696593231", "date": "2019-02-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How 2 Conspiracy Theorists Shaped Trump's Worldview (And Why They Matter To Mueller)", "question_index": 37, "text": "Yes, indeed", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, that's right. Many people may not remember all the plot points of \"Godfather: Part II.\" But there's a figure named Frank Pentangeli who testifies in Congress in the course of the movie. And he lie"}
{"id": "696593231", "date": "2019-02-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How 2 Conspiracy Theorists Shaped Trump's Worldview (And Why They Matter To Mueller)", "question_index": 38, "text": ". OK. So with the story with Stone and Corsi and WikiLeaks and the Russian hackers, it's at this point - tell me if I'm right here - it's at this point hard to tell whether this is a kind of sidebar, marginal story about two outsized characters who are also conspiracy theorists or whether this could actually lead to the end game because if they were in touch with Russian intelligence and with Julian Assange about the WikiLeaks and the hacks, and if they were ordered to do it, you know, by a senior campaign official who was ordered to do it by somebody even higher - possibly even the president - that could kind of be the end game, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, that's right. Many people may not remember all the plot points of \"Godfather: Part II.\" But there's a figure named Frank Pentangeli who testifies in Congress in the course of the movie. And he lie"}
{"id": "696593231", "date": "2019-02-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How 2 Conspiracy Theorists Shaped Trump's Worldview (And Why They Matter To Mueller)", "question_index": 39, "text": "Jeffrey Toobin, it is always a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, see, that's why this story is sort of a wonderful microcosm of the whole Russia scandal because at one level, it's about all these bumbling, peculiar people who are sort of thrashing about tryin"}
{"id": "696593231", "date": "2019-02-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "How 2 Conspiracy Theorists Shaped Trump's Worldview (And Why They Matter To Mueller)", "question_index": 40, "text": "Jeffrey Toobin covers legal affairs for the New Yorker. His new article is titled \"Roger Stone's And Jerome Corsi's Time In The Barrel.\" Toobin says that if Mueller releases his report next week, the Stone case will proceed. Some members of Mueller's team might stay on the case, but it would formally be turned over to the U.S. attorney in Washington, D.C. The Corsi case would likely be closed without charges being filed. If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, like our interview with dream hampton, executive producer of \"Surviving R. Kelly,\" the docuseries about the allegations surrounding the R&B star that he sexually and physically abused women, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks, Terry."}
{"id": "696632218", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Sam Rockwell", "title": "'Vice' Traces Dick Cheney's Ascent From Yale Dropout To Political Power Player", "question_index": 0, "text": "Adam McKay, welcome back to FRESH AIR and congratulations on the film. Cheney has a legacy. He was one of the most powerful vice presidents in American history. How are his accomplishments still with us, for better or worse, depending on your political point of view?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As George W. Bush) That sounds good."}
{"id": "696632218", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Sam Rockwell", "title": "'Vice' Traces Dick Cheney's Ascent From Yale Dropout To Political Power Player", "question_index": 1, "text": "There's a scene I want to play from fairly early in the film. And this is when Cheney is a young man. And he was - and I didn't know this about him. But apparently, this is true because you say most of the stuff in the film is true. He was expelled from Yale. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, there's no question Cheney is a brilliant bureaucrat, a brilliant operator. He has a patience and an intelligence in viewing Washington, D.C., and how the gears of power work. What Cheney cond"}
{"id": "696632218", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Sam Rockwell", "title": "'Vice' Traces Dick Cheney's Ascent From Yale Dropout To Political Power Player", "question_index": 2, "text": "So how come - how did he - did he flunk out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, his - Lynne actually worked with a local businessman who was able to give out two scholarships to Yale every year. But back then, Yale did not accept women. And so Lynne was a straight-A s"}
{"id": "696632218", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Sam Rockwell", "title": "'Vice' Traces Dick Cheney's Ascent From Yale Dropout To Political Power Player", "question_index": 3, "text": "It's so hard for me to imagine Dick Cheney riding on a tricycle, drunk, down a staircase. But", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "there's one story he tells. And he doesn't tell a lot of stories. But there's one story he tells about being drunk at a party and riding a tricycle down a staircase very, very drunk. And, I think, he "}
{"id": "696632218", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Sam Rockwell", "title": "'Vice' Traces Dick Cheney's Ascent From Yale Dropout To Political Power Player", "question_index": 4, "text": "you also, in the screenplay, have how he was arrested twice for driving under the influence. And so what happens before the scene I'm going to play is that he's arrested for driving under the influence during a time after he's flunked out of Yale, and he's moved back to Wyoming. And his job, at the time, is kind of hanging powerlines in Wyoming. And so he's doing a lot of, like, climbing poles to hang power lines. So after he's arrested for driving under the influence, Lynne Cheney reprimands him and, basically, gives him an ultimatum. So here's that scene. And Lynne Cheney is played by Amy Adams, and Christian Bale is Dick Cheney.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "there's one story he tells. And he doesn't tell a lot of stories. But there's one story he tells about being drunk at a party and riding a tricycle down a staircase very, very drunk. And, I think, he "}
{"id": "696632218", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Sam Rockwell", "title": "'Vice' Traces Dick Cheney's Ascent From Yale Dropout To Political Power Player", "question_index": 5, "text": "OK, a scene from \"Vice,\" written and directed by my guest, Adam McKay. So where does that scene come from? What background did you use for that scene?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Lynne Cheney) Then prove it. Prove it. I can't go to a big Ivy League school. And I can't run a company or be mayor. That's just the way the world is for a girl. I need you. And right now, you are"}
{"id": "696632218", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Sam Rockwell", "title": "'Vice' Traces Dick Cheney's Ascent From Yale Dropout To Political Power Player", "question_index": 6, "text": "So you kind of depict Lynne Cheney as the kind of motivating factor and the power - the ambition behind Dick Cheney's initial climb.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That is a story that Dick Cheney talks about a lot and Lynne's referred to a lot. And, you know, that was a moment where Dick Cheney had flunked out of Yale. He was working as a lineman in Wyoming. We"}
{"id": "696632218", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Sam Rockwell", "title": "'Vice' Traces Dick Cheney's Ascent From Yale Dropout To Political Power Player", "question_index": 7, "text": "In the early part of the George W. Bush administration, when you were head writer on \"Saturday Night Live\" and Will Ferrell was in the cast, he often played George W. Bush, even during the campaign. And you were his writing partner on that. And then after \"Saturday Night Live,\" you and Will Ferrell did a one-man show. And so it was Will Ferrell as George W. Bush on stage. Do Cheney and Bush look really different to you now than they did then with the amount of time that has elapsed since you worked with Will Ferrell on George W. Bush material?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview with Adam McKay, the writer and director of the movie \"Vice\", which stars Christian Bale as Vice President Dick Cheney. It's nominated for eight "}
{"id": "696632218", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Sam Rockwell", "title": "'Vice' Traces Dick Cheney's Ascent From Yale Dropout To Political Power Player", "question_index": 8, "text": "Wait. What do you think he meant by that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. In the middle of that show, I really started noticing what W. Bush's position was - that he was a name. He was not a serious guy. He was, you know, by a lot of accounts, a fairly OK guy. He was "}
{"id": "696632218", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Sam Rockwell", "title": "'Vice' Traces Dick Cheney's Ascent From Yale Dropout To Political Power Player", "question_index": 9, "text": "So the movie isn't about the Trump administration. It's about the Bush-Cheney administration. But are there any people from the Bush-Cheney cast of characters who have reappeared in the Trump administration and, through making \"Vice,\" you have a different understanding of who they are than you otherwise would have?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think he meant, like, he was - he didn't know how to handle him. You know, we know that Bush's father, H.W. Bush - God rest his soul - said, I never would have recommended Cheney for my son if I had"}
{"id": "696632218", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Sam Rockwell", "title": "'Vice' Traces Dick Cheney's Ascent From Yale Dropout To Political Power Player", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yeah, so Bolton was - what? - U.N. ambassador during...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let's just get him out of here. And I swear to God, three days later, the Trump administration appointed him. And that kept happening throughout the movie. We kept thinking that there were these chara"}
{"id": "696632218", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Sam Rockwell", "title": "'Vice' Traces Dick Cheney's Ascent From Yale Dropout To Political Power Player", "question_index": 11, "text": "...Bush-Cheney and is now national security adviser.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yup."}
{"id": "696632218", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Sam Rockwell", "title": "'Vice' Traces Dick Cheney's Ascent From Yale Dropout To Political Power Player", "question_index": 12, "text": "And he was very anti-U.N. when he became the U.N. ambassador.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I believe that's correct, yeah - and known for very hawkish, very aggressive foreign policy. Recently, there's footage of him with a giant smile on his face, shaking hands with Putin. That's the image"}
{"id": "696632218", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Sam Rockwell", "title": "'Vice' Traces Dick Cheney's Ascent From Yale Dropout To Political Power Player", "question_index": 13, "text": "Christian Bale is really fantastic in the movie as Cheney, particularly as the Bush-era Cheney. And some of it is the makeup and prosthetics. But he gets the voice so well. And the breathing - like, you can always hear Cheney when he's breathing, when he's inhaling before the next phrase he's about to speak. And he gets the pacing and the breathing perfectly right. And also, you know, Cheney, when he speaks, it comes out a little more on one side of his mouth than the other.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "espousing ideas. But it also points to the fact that, really, none of these stories are isolated. This is a longer arc of four or five decades. It's a bigger story in transition that's gone on in Amer"}
{"id": "696632218", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Sam Rockwell", "title": "'Vice' Traces Dick Cheney's Ascent From Yale Dropout To Political Power Player", "question_index": 14, "text": "And Christian Bale got that perfectly. Why did you think of him? I mean, physically, he's the opposite type of Cheney. He's - you know, he's got a very narrow face, or at least that's how I think of it, as opposed to Cheney's much, you know, kind of rounder or more square face. Cheney's heavier than Bale is. Bale had to put on a lot of weight for the role. Christian Bale's Australian, which I never remember when he's playing an American.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "696632218", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Sam Rockwell", "title": "'Vice' Traces Dick Cheney's Ascent From Yale Dropout To Political Power Player", "question_index": 15, "text": "Welsh, OK. Yes, Welsh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Welsh, by the way."}
{"id": "696632218", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Sam Rockwell", "title": "'Vice' Traces Dick Cheney's Ascent From Yale Dropout To Political Power Player", "question_index": 16, "text": "But I never remember that he's not, like, a native American accent speaker. So why in the world did you think of him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "696632218", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Sam Rockwell", "title": "'Vice' Traces Dick Cheney's Ascent From Yale Dropout To Political Power Player", "question_index": 17, "text": "So making \"Vice\" was a very eventful period for you. You had a heart attack before the movie was finished. Thank goodness you survived and seem to be in good shape now. What point of the movie were you in when you realized you were having a heart attack?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview with Adam McKay, the writer and director of \"Vice,\" starring Christian Bale as Dick Cheney. McKay's up for two Academy Awards in the Best Actor a"}
{"id": "696632218", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Sam Rockwell", "title": "'Vice' Traces Dick Cheney's Ascent From Yale Dropout To Political Power Player", "question_index": 18, "text": "You ran upstairs. You're like - you're having a heart attack, so you run upstairs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We had just finished filming. I think we had wrapped for about a week. And it's that period where the editor is putting together the rough assembly of the movie. Hank Corwin was working on it. So you "}
{"id": "696632218", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Sam Rockwell", "title": "'Vice' Traces Dick Cheney's Ascent From Yale Dropout To Political Power Player", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, you know..."}
{"id": "696632218", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Sam Rockwell", "title": "'Vice' Traces Dick Cheney's Ascent From Yale Dropout To Political Power Player", "question_index": 20, "text": "Right, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Maybe run is not the right word."}
{"id": "696632218", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Sam Rockwell", "title": "'Vice' Traces Dick Cheney's Ascent From Yale Dropout To Political Power Player", "question_index": 21, "text": "Yeah, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Stumbled, staggered..."}
{"id": "696632218", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Sam Rockwell", "title": "'Vice' Traces Dick Cheney's Ascent From Yale Dropout To Political Power Player", "question_index": 22, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Maybe that's a better word."}
{"id": "696632218", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Sam Rockwell", "title": "'Vice' Traces Dick Cheney's Ascent From Yale Dropout To Political Power Player", "question_index": 23, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah - careened."}
{"id": "696632218", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Sam Rockwell", "title": "'Vice' Traces Dick Cheney's Ascent From Yale Dropout To Political Power Player", "question_index": 24, "text": "Oh, that's such good news.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "that's how a heart attack works. And the doctor said, because you acted so quickly, you have no damage to your heart. Your heart's as good as new."}
{"id": "696632218", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Sam Rockwell", "title": "'Vice' Traces Dick Cheney's Ascent From Yale Dropout To Political Power Player", "question_index": 25, "text": "Did the doctor think the baby aspirin helped?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then he said, not only that, you have an extra strong heart. So he said, the only dumb thing you're doing is smoking. So he said, if you stop smoking, there's no reason you shouldn't live to be 10"}
{"id": "696632218", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Sam Rockwell", "title": "'Vice' Traces Dick Cheney's Ascent From Yale Dropout To Political Power Player", "question_index": 26, "text": "Did you, at any point, think that your life was in danger?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, for sure. No, no, that's what they give you. And when I got in the ambulance, they gave me more. I mean, the aspirin thins the blood, which allows it to get around the blockage. It's definit"}
{"id": "696632218", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Sam Rockwell", "title": "'Vice' Traces Dick Cheney's Ascent From Yale Dropout To Political Power Player", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "and how ironic this is that I'm on a table having a heart attack. And of course, no one cares. But I - so I sort of mumbled it. I was like, this is weird. I just did a movie about Dick Cheney. And eve"}
{"id": "696632218", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Sam Rockwell", "title": "'Vice' Traces Dick Cheney's Ascent From Yale Dropout To Political Power Player", "question_index": 28, "text": "That's not the point of your movie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I went..."}
{"id": "696632218", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Sam Rockwell", "title": "'Vice' Traces Dick Cheney's Ascent From Yale Dropout To Political Power Player", "question_index": 29, "text": "Well, it's really been a pleasure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I went - you know, it's - in my mind, I was like, I don't want to argue with this guy. I think these people just saved my life. So I just went, it's complicated."}
{"id": "696637550", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 0, "text": "Rami Malek, welcome to FRESH AIR. It's so much fun to watch you as Freddie Mercury. Was singing part of your audition?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Freddie Mercury) Don't misunderstand, darling. It's a rock 'n' roll record with the scale of opera, the pathos of Greek tragedy, the wit of Shakespeare, the unbridled joy of musical theatre. It's "}
{"id": "696637550", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 1, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It ended up being part of that audition. I warned them I was not a singer. I told them I don't play the piano. What I do when I'm out on the dance floor could be considered something having to do with"}
{"id": "696637550", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 2, "text": "Yeah. All the music credits in the movie are attributed to Queen. So you sang as you were filming, but the music that we're hearing is actually Freddie Mercury and Queen.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Not."}
{"id": "696637550", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 3, "text": "There's actually a scene where you're at the piano singing a sketch of \"Bohemian Rhapsody,\" and your voice breaks. Is any of that you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's actually an amalgamation. The large majority of it is Freddie Mercury. And in order to sync it up properly, they used bits of my voice in the beginning. It will lead in with my voice and then pic"}
{"id": "696637550", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 4, "text": "Should we just hear that bit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Rami Malek."}
{"id": "696637550", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Rami Malek."}
{"id": "696637550", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 6, "text": "OK. Let us know if you can tell which part is you, OK?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "696637550", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 7, "text": "OK. So the final note...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Freddie Mercury, singing) Goodbye, everybody. I've got to go, got to leave you all behind and face the truth. Mama, ooh, I don't want to die. I sometimes wish I'd never been born at all."}
{"id": "696637550", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 8, "text": "His or yours - voice breaks - what are we hearing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "696637550", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 9, "text": "\"Bohemian Rhapsody\" is bookended by a - basically, like, a reproduction of the famous Queen performance at Live Aid. That was this huge benefit concert in 1985 for the benefit of people suffering from the famine in Ethiopia. And your performance - there were multiple stages for this. The Queen - I said your performance. The Queen performance was in Wembley Stadium in London to an audience of 72,000 people. So you, as Freddie Mercury, had to reproduce that performance, which is considered one of the great performances in rock history. So I'm sure you must have studied it move by move, including learning Freddie Mercury's microphone technique because he'd, basically, be handed the mic on the stand but not on the bass. So it was just, like, the pole with the mic on it. And then he'd use that as a prop, you know, strutting around on stage and using it as a - you know, strumming it like it was a guitar, putting it across his groin as if it were a large phallus, you know, all the rock tricks.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Gosh. The majority of that is, obviously, Freddie Mercury. But somehow, they've found a way to put me in there. And I can't - I really can't tell you. It feels so seamless to me. And that's, I think, "}
{"id": "696637550", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 10, "text": "So talk to us about, like, studying, Freddie Mercury during the Live Aid concert and also, like, how he used the microphone.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Gosh. The majority of that is, obviously, Freddie Mercury. But somehow, they've found a way to put me in there. And I can't - I really can't tell you. It feels so seamless to me. And that's, I think, "}
{"id": "696637550", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 11, "text": "Wait. Now I'm going to stop you. When you say half mic, does that mean, like, the pole with the mic on it? Like the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I walked around London for about two months with this half mic. And I think now..."}
{"id": "696637550", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 12, "text": "You walked around with the mic on it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct, yeah."}
{"id": "696637550", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 13, "text": "Yes, it looks like a weapon.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I walked around with the mic attached to it. I just never wanted to lose focus of what I was doing. And that was a very constant reminder. Sometimes, I would tuck the microphone into my backpack"}
{"id": "696637550", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 14, "text": "Another thing we should mention is your teeth. He had - what? - four extra teeth in his upper mouth. And he had, you know, very buck teeth as a result. And so you had fake teeth that you used, made for you by a famous Hollywood prosthetic teeth designer. What was it like for you to wear them? Like, how did it change your feeling of your mouth and your ability to talk and sing? - because, like, not only did you have to sing for the performance, even though they weren't necessarily going to use your voice, you still had to sing. So you're doing something you're not used to doing - singing. And you're doing it with teeth that aren't even yours.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview with Rami Malek, who's nominated for an Academy Award for his role as Freddie Mercury in the film \"Bohemian Rhapsody.\""}
{"id": "696637550", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 15, "text": "Did you feel like you were going to be letting them down if you failed? That they came here - and often with immigrants, the idea is it's for their children. So if you failed as an actor, would you have been letting them down? Did you feel guilty for even trying for an acting career?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. The teeth were difficult to get used to. Initially, I put them in my mouth a year prior to shooting and immediately felt insecure. I felt like I was on my back foot in a way. I didn't feel like m"}
{"id": "696637550", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 16, "text": "Did you deliver pizzas to, like, famous producers or directors?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a good question. Yeah. I did feel a bit guilty. And the only way to compensate for that was just to give it my all. I was in my apartment that we were living in - four of us in a two-bedroom apar"}
{"id": "696637550", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 17, "text": "Seriously? Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did get an audition out of it once, and I thought..."}
{"id": "696637550", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 18, "text": "Did you get the commercial?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. Yeah, I did. It was for a commercial and still kept in touch with that person who gave me the audition."}
{"id": "696637550", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 19, "text": "What was it for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did not."}
{"id": "696637550", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 20, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was for M&M's."}
{"id": "696637550", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 21, "text": "So you got the \"Gilmore Girls\" part, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I will tell you this. One day, I did get a call. I got a call from Mara Casey, who was a casting director for the \"Gilmore Girls.\" And she asked to speak with Rami Malek's agent, and I said, speaking."}
{"id": "696637550", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 22, "text": "Let's talk a little bit about \"Mr. Robot.\" Now, in this, you're somebody who has serious mental health issues, serious social problems. It's very hard for you to be with people. You're very withdrawn. You literally withdraw into your hoodie most of the time. And you're a hacker by night, but you're, like, a tech worker during the day. In the opening episode of season 1, you walk into a coffee shop - Ron's Coffee shop - and you start talking to the owner of the shop. Let's listen to that scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I got the part the next day."}
{"id": "696637550", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 23, "text": "That might sound like an expression of sympathy", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Elliot Alderson) I understand what it's like to be different. I'm very different, too."}
{"id": "696637550", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 24, "text": ". But right after that, Rami Malek's character is offered money by the coffee shop owner to cover this up. And Elliot, Rami Malek's character, the hacker, says that he doesn't care about money. And it turns out he's tipped off the police. And as he gets up to leave the coffee shop, the police get out of their cars. And they start walking in to bust the coffee shop owner. It's a great scene, and it kind of hooks you right at that - right at episode 1. How did you get the part of \"Mr. Robot?\" You weren't very well-known at the time. I mean, \"Mr. Robot\" is really what made you well-known.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Elliot Alderson) I understand what it's like to be different. I'm very different, too."}
{"id": "696637550", "date": "2019-02-22", "guest": "Rami Malek", "title": "'You Better Own This': How Rami Malek Came To Embody Freddie Mercury", "question_index": 25, "text": "Rami Malek, it's really been so great to talk with you. Thank you so much. Thank you for your performances.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct. I got the part, actually, auditioning with that very scene. Sam Esmail, who is the creator of \"Mr. Robot,\" had seen me do a miniseries that was from Steven Spielberg and Tom Hanks called \"The"}
{"id": "698535498", "date": "2019-02-27", "guest": "Mary Pipher", "title": "Aging Offers Women 'Enormous Possibilities For Growth,' Says Author", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest Mary Pipher has written a new book about women in their 60s and early 70s who, like her, are transitioning from middle age to old age. Pipher is 71. She writes that chronological age is not as important as health. In the 21st century, women often consider themselves middle-aged well into their 60s until they suffer a major health crisis or the loss of someone they love. Her new book is about finding new strategies for a new stage of life in which your body is changing; you may no longer be doing the things you built your identity on, like pursuing your career or raising children; and you may be losing people you love. Twenty-five years ago when Pipher's daughter was a teenager, she wrote the bestseller \"Reviving Ophelia\" about the stresses and anxieties faced by teenage girls. When Pipher was taking care of her aging and sick mother, she wrote the book \"Another Country\" about the issues faced by adult children caring for parents. When Pipher was a therapist, she worked primarily with women. At the University of Nebraska, she taught psychology of women and sex roles and gender. Her new book is called \"Women Rowing North.\" Mary Pipher, welcome back to FRESH AIR. You know, we've spoken three times. The first time was for \"Reviving Ophelia,\" your book about teenagers and teenage girls and the stresses that they go through. The second time was a book about people who are aging and the younger people who care for them. So it's like the second book was about dealing with parents or grandparents who are aging and needing help.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "698535498", "date": "2019-02-27", "guest": "Mary Pipher", "title": "Aging Offers Women 'Enormous Possibilities For Growth,' Says Author", "question_index": 1, "text": "\"Another Country,\" it was called. This book is about aging yourself and the issues that other aging women like yourself deal with. And I'm just interested in the shift in perspective from the second book that we spoke about - about helping people who are aging, like your parents - to this book where you're writing about your own cohort and yourself.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Another Country.\" Yeah."}
{"id": "698535498", "date": "2019-02-27", "guest": "Mary Pipher", "title": "Aging Offers Women 'Enormous Possibilities For Growth,' Says Author", "question_index": 2, "text": "I think as you get older, you feel less resilient because your body is aging, and it's not as resilient as it was. But I think you're trying to say you have to become more emotionally resilient as you get older to deal with the stresses of aging and with the physical diminishment that eventually you're going to face.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, of course, I see things a lot differently now than when I was younger and sometimes frustrated by my aging mother. My father died before he had a chance to age, but my mother did age and had man"}
{"id": "698535498", "date": "2019-02-27", "guest": "Mary Pipher", "title": "Aging Offers Women 'Enormous Possibilities For Growth,' Says Author", "question_index": 3, "text": "Wait. I'm going to stop you right there...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first of all, a lot of women, by the time they're my age, have some sort of disability. In my case, it's my hands. But one of the things that I realized since I wrote this book about my mother i"}
{"id": "698535498", "date": "2019-02-27", "guest": "Mary Pipher", "title": "Aging Offers Women 'Enormous Possibilities For Growth,' Says Author", "question_index": 4, "text": "...Because I want to ask you about the happiness issue.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Please."}
{"id": "698535498", "date": "2019-02-27", "guest": "Mary Pipher", "title": "Aging Offers Women 'Enormous Possibilities For Growth,' Says Author", "question_index": 5, "text": "Why do you think older women are happier when they're older than they were when they were younger? Is that what you're saying?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "698535498", "date": "2019-02-27", "guest": "Mary Pipher", "title": "Aging Offers Women 'Enormous Possibilities For Growth,' Says Author", "question_index": 6, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. I'm saying that it gets also - statistical fact - I'm not..."}
{"id": "698535498", "date": "2019-02-27", "guest": "Mary Pipher", "title": "Aging Offers Women 'Enormous Possibilities For Growth,' Says Author", "question_index": 7, "text": "But what accounts for that - 'cause, you know, it seems counterintuitive.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Just hypothesizing."}
{"id": "698535498", "date": "2019-02-27", "guest": "Mary Pipher", "title": "Aging Offers Women 'Enormous Possibilities For Growth,' Says Author", "question_index": 8, "text": "Parentheses here - like, in your family tree, you say there's depression, psychosis, suicide, alcoholism. So yeah. You're not from, like, a sunny...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first of all, I think it's - it really starts with, what do you think the nature of happiness is? And I think happiness is a choice and a set of skills. And I don't say this as a person who was "}
{"id": "698535498", "date": "2019-02-27", "guest": "Mary Pipher", "title": "Aging Offers Women 'Enormous Possibilities For Growth,' Says Author", "question_index": 9, "text": "...Sunny, happy, happy family tree.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "698535498", "date": "2019-02-27", "guest": "Mary Pipher", "title": "Aging Offers Women 'Enormous Possibilities For Growth,' Says Author", "question_index": 10, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "By no means - and I certainly am not arguing now, Terry, that, oh, I'm one of the happiest persons on earth. Listen to me."}
{"id": "698535498", "date": "2019-02-27", "guest": "Mary Pipher", "title": "Aging Offers Women 'Enormous Possibilities For Growth,' Says Author", "question_index": 11, "text": "I think from having read your book, the part of what keeps you feeling happier now is redefining happiness more as contentment than as, like, joy - you know, than as, like, wow; that was really fabulous. I'm so happy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What I'm saying is I really feel like after all these years of being a therapist and watching my friends grow and develop and seeing the directions they take and then doing this book where I interview"}
{"id": "698535498", "date": "2019-02-27", "guest": "Mary Pipher", "title": "Aging Offers Women 'Enormous Possibilities For Growth,' Says Author", "question_index": 12, "text": "Right, 'cause you've done a lot of interviews for the book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yes and no. I actually would say that at this point in my life, not only myself - I'm never speaking quite for myself when I'm talking about this. I'm speaking for a lot of people that I know..."}
{"id": "698535498", "date": "2019-02-27", "guest": "Mary Pipher", "title": "Aging Offers Women 'Enormous Possibilities For Growth,' Says Author", "question_index": 13, "text": "And you're a therapist.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. But actually..."}
{"id": "698535498", "date": "2019-02-27", "guest": "Mary Pipher", "title": "Aging Offers Women 'Enormous Possibilities For Growth,' Says Author", "question_index": 14, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Mary Pipher. She's a clinical psychologist, the author of the bestseller \"Reviving Ophelia,\" about teenage girls and the stresses that they experience. Then she wrote a book about people taking care of their aging parents or grandparents, and that was called \"Another Country.\" Her new book, now that she's in her early 70s, is about the transition into aging and into old age. And it's based on her experiences and on the experiences of many women who she's interviewed, as well as friends. That book is called \"Women Rowing North: Navigating Life's Currents And Flourishing As We Age.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Women my age, for the most part, experience more joy and bliss than younger women. And I could give you a couple examples of that. One of them is I had a friend who was dying of cancer, and she cam"}
{"id": "698535498", "date": "2019-02-27", "guest": "Mary Pipher", "title": "Aging Offers Women 'Enormous Possibilities For Growth,' Says Author", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is Mary Pipher, a clinical psychologist who also taught for many years at the University of Nebraska, focusing on issues related to girls and women. Her new book is kind of part of a trilogy of books, starting with \"Reviving Ophelia,\" about the stresses teenage girls experience, and then \"Another Country,\" about the stresses people experience when they're taking care of their elders, like their aging parents. But this new book, \"Women Rowing North,\" is about the transition into old age, and she writes from her own experiences and from the experiences of the many women she's interviewed and of friends. So one of the things you're dealing with in your early 70s is chronic pain. You referred earlier to your hands having issues. And you were surprised to get the diagnosis that you'd always be in pain, and you'd always have trouble using your hands in the way that you were used to using them. You have trouble writing now, for example, and you're a writer - I mean, physically writing. So you have workarounds to help you with the fact that you can't use your hands to write. But what about dealing with chronic pain? It's easy to obsess on that. It's easy for pain to crowd out other thoughts. And chronic pain is something a lot of older people have to learn to live with. People don't want to get addicted to opioids, for obvious reasons. Even things like over-the-counter anti-inflammatories, non-steroidal anti-inflammatories, it's not great to take those over long periods of time. So talk about chronic pain and learning not to let it preoccupy you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Women my age, for the most part, experience more joy and bliss than younger women. And I could give you a couple examples of that. One of them is I had a friend who was dying of cancer, and she cam"}
{"id": "698535498", "date": "2019-02-27", "guest": "Mary Pipher", "title": "Aging Offers Women 'Enormous Possibilities For Growth,' Says Author", "question_index": 16, "text": "Is your problem arthritis or something else?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, my last visit with my hand surgeon - after we'd done all we could, at the point my hands were really shot - I said, am I always going to have pain? And he said, you know, Mary, he said"}
{"id": "698535498", "date": "2019-02-27", "guest": "Mary Pipher", "title": "Aging Offers Women 'Enormous Possibilities For Growth,' Says Author", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yeah, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a multiple set of problems. I've had my thumb joints rebuilt. I have carpal tunnel. I have arthritis. It's just everything. The main thing is I've just worked very, very hard all my life. I start"}
{"id": "698535498", "date": "2019-02-27", "guest": "Mary Pipher", "title": "Aging Offers Women 'Enormous Possibilities For Growth,' Says Author", "question_index": 18, "text": "People are living to longer ages now than their parents did because of new breakthroughs in medical technology. So retirement is longer. People who stay married are married longer than previous generations because their life expectancy is longer, their lifespan is typically longer. And so couples often live together for many years as retirees and spend many more hours together than they ever did before as a married couple. And especially, like, if you're raising children, it's kind of, like, tag-team sometimes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I've just worn out my hands, and that sometimes happens. They just wear out from overwork - not enough ligament left to support hands and so on."}
{"id": "698535498", "date": "2019-02-27", "guest": "Mary Pipher", "title": "Aging Offers Women 'Enormous Possibilities For Growth,' Says Author", "question_index": 19, "text": "Like, you're not spending much time together as a couple during those really active child-rearing years. So have you seen a lot of marriages change in surprising ways during the years of retirement?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I've just worn out my hands, and that sometimes happens. They just wear out from overwork - not enough ligament left to support hands and so on."}
{"id": "698535498", "date": "2019-02-27", "guest": "Mary Pipher", "title": "Aging Offers Women 'Enormous Possibilities For Growth,' Says Author", "question_index": 20, "text": "What frightens you most about aging?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first of all, one thing that's really interesting is a lot of people get divorced because at the point their children are raised, at the point they quit their job, they realize, you know, this i"}
{"id": "698535498", "date": "2019-02-27", "guest": "Mary Pipher", "title": "Aging Offers Women 'Enormous Possibilities For Growth,' Says Author", "question_index": 21, "text": "Well, Mary Pipher, it's been a pleasure to talk with you again. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, what frightens me by far the most about aging is losing people I love. That's always been a tremendously difficult issue for me. We had a brother-in-law of mine die of brain cancer in his - "}
{"id": "698535498", "date": "2019-02-27", "guest": "Mary Pipher", "title": "Aging Offers Women 'Enormous Possibilities For Growth,' Says Author", "question_index": 22, "text": "Mary Pipher's new book is called \"Women Rowing North.\" After we take a short break, we'll hear from Jennifer Stockburger, who runs the test track for Consumer Reports, where they test out new cars. The magazine just published its annual car issue, ranking cars and car companies. Also, Maureen Corrigan will review a new novel about migrant children at the southwestern border. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "698887851", "date": "2019-02-28", "guest": "Mattathias Schwartz", "title": "Journalist Explains How Mike Pompeo Helps 'Translate Trump' To The World", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The summit between President Trump and North Korea's leader, Kim Jong Un, collapsed with no agreement on steps toward North Korea's nuclear disarmament. The summit is just the latest challenge in a larger balancing act for Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, writes my guest, journalist Mattathias Schwartz. He describes Pompeo as the primary architect of Trump's negotiations over the nuclear arsenal controlled by Kim Jong Un. Another part of Pompeo's job, according to Schwartz, is traveling the world cleaning up Trump's messes after Trump tries to execute hairpin policy turns, often by tweet. Schwartz's new article, titled \"Mike Pompeo's Mission: Translating Trump To A Wary World,\" will be published Sunday in The New York Times magazine, where he is a contributing writer. The article is already on the website. Pompeo served in the House of Representatives from 2011 to 2017. He was part of the conservative anti-Obama Tea Party movement. After Trump became president, he appointed Pompeo to head the CIA. In 2018, Pompeo replaced Rex Tillerson as Trump's secretary of state. Mattathias Schwartz has written for The New Yorker and New York Magazine, and is a former national security reporter for The Intercept. Mattathias Schwartz, welcome to FRESH AIR. So the nuclear summit ended prematurely, no deal. What does this say about Mike Pompeo, who was so key in organizing the summit?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "698887851", "date": "2019-02-28", "guest": "Mattathias Schwartz", "title": "Journalist Explains How Mike Pompeo Helps 'Translate Trump' To The World", "question_index": 1, "text": "So, you know, some people are saying, well, there wasn't enough work and planning going into this. They should have known there wasn't going to be a deal. Maybe it was premature for a summit. What was Pompeo's role in arranging the summit and planning out how it would happen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's definitely a setback for Secretary of State Mike Pompeo as a diplomat, Terry. This has been his, kind of, lodestar issue. It's something that President Trump tasked him with. And the expectations"}
{"id": "698887851", "date": "2019-02-28", "guest": "Mattathias Schwartz", "title": "Journalist Explains How Mike Pompeo Helps 'Translate Trump' To The World", "question_index": 2, "text": "At the press conference after the summit ended prematurely, Mike Pompeo was standing next to President Trump. Does that convey a message?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, Mike Pompeo made several trips to Pyongyang and elsewhere to meet with his North Korean counterparts, try to get a sense of where they were. He appointed a special envoy named Stephen Biegun wh"}
{"id": "698887851", "date": "2019-02-28", "guest": "Mattathias Schwartz", "title": "Journalist Explains How Mike Pompeo Helps 'Translate Trump' To The World", "question_index": 3, "text": "And doing what?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's very interesting, Terry. We saw this in Brussels, too, at the NATO summit, with Pompeo standing beside and a little bit behind President Trump, and then President Trump inviting him up to answer "}
{"id": "698887851", "date": "2019-02-28", "guest": "Mattathias Schwartz", "title": "Journalist Explains How Mike Pompeo Helps 'Translate Trump' To The World", "question_index": 4, "text": "You write that the North Korea summit is just the latest challenge in the larger balancing act for Mike Pompeo. What's the balancing act you're describing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, doing something like taking all U.S. troops out of South Korea, which is something he's talked about before; doing something like lifting all sanctions in exchange for, you know, very limited step"}
{"id": "698887851", "date": "2019-02-28", "guest": "Mattathias Schwartz", "title": "Journalist Explains How Mike Pompeo Helps 'Translate Trump' To The World", "question_index": 5, "text": "So one of the people you interviewed for your New York Times magazine piece about Mike Pompeo is General Michael Hayden, the former head of the CIA and the NSA. And Hayden compared Pompeo to the character of The Wolf, the Harvey Keitel character in \"Pulp Fiction\" who's called in to clean up messes - for instance, a literal bloody mess after a murder. So give us an example of a time when Mike Pompeo was called in to, like, clean up a mess created by the president.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Perhaps the biggest balancing act that Mike Pompeo has to undertake while serving President Trump is between the United States and the rest of the world. President Trump has some incredibly isolationi"}
{"id": "698887851", "date": "2019-02-28", "guest": "Mattathias Schwartz", "title": "Journalist Explains How Mike Pompeo Helps 'Translate Trump' To The World", "question_index": 6, "text": "And you said that Pompeo was able to present the daily brief in terms that Trump wanted to hear. What questions did Trump typically want answered?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So one thing that The Wolf and Mike Pompeo have in common is their manner. They're very direct, kind of fast-talking. I don't think they suffer fools. And they deal - they sort of issue a very high vo"}
{"id": "698887851", "date": "2019-02-28", "guest": "Mattathias Schwartz", "title": "Journalist Explains How Mike Pompeo Helps 'Translate Trump' To The World", "question_index": 7, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Mattathias Schwartz. He's a contributing writer at the New York Times Magazine. His new piece is called \"Mike Pompeo's Mission: Translate Trump To A Wary World.\" And that's wary. So we're going to take a short break, and then we'll talk some more. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I spoke to someone from the administration who's left who told me that he has four questions that he really likes to ask. Why should I care? What's in it for us? Can someone else do it? And how "}
{"id": "698887851", "date": "2019-02-28", "guest": "Mattathias Schwartz", "title": "Journalist Explains How Mike Pompeo Helps 'Translate Trump' To The World", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Mattathias Schwartz. He's a contributing writer at the New York Times Magazine, and his new piece is called \"Mike Pompeo's Mission: Translate Trump To A Wary World.\" You were one of eight journalists who traveled with Mike Pompeo on a trip to the Middle East in early January. What was the purpose of the trip?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I spoke to someone from the administration who's left who told me that he has four questions that he really likes to ask. Why should I care? What's in it for us? Can someone else do it? And how "}
{"id": "698887851", "date": "2019-02-28", "guest": "Mattathias Schwartz", "title": "Journalist Explains How Mike Pompeo Helps 'Translate Trump' To The World", "question_index": 9, "text": "Pompeo gave a speech in Cairo, which seemed to be a rebuttal to Obama's speech when Obama was in his early presidency and Obama addressed Muslims around the world. What did - what were the main takeaways of Pompeo's speech when he seemed to be rebutting Obama?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Secretary Pompeo's purpose on the Middle East trip was to roll out the Trump administration's big policy goals in the Middle East. These include the Israeli-Palestinian peace deals that's been a big p"}
{"id": "698887851", "date": "2019-02-28", "guest": "Mattathias Schwartz", "title": "Journalist Explains How Mike Pompeo Helps 'Translate Trump' To The World", "question_index": 10, "text": "Somebody who was seemingly leading the applause after the speech - you went over and introduced yourself to him. He was Joel Rosenberg.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Secretary Pompeo rebuked Obama for mischaracterizing the threat of terrorism and for saying that just a change in attitude could change the facts on the ground. That's a paraphrase. And he has a point"}
{"id": "698887851", "date": "2019-02-28", "guest": "Mattathias Schwartz", "title": "Journalist Explains How Mike Pompeo Helps 'Translate Trump' To The World", "question_index": 11, "text": "OK. So you introduced yourself to Joel Rosenberg and wanted to find out more about him. So he's an author, and he is an evangelical. Describe his books.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he was sitting right behind me. He definitely led the applause. I was asked this by the checkers. I'm 100 percent certain about - that he led the applause after Secretary Pompeo praised Presiden"}
{"id": "698887851", "date": "2019-02-28", "guest": "Mattathias Schwartz", "title": "Journalist Explains How Mike Pompeo Helps 'Translate Trump' To The World", "question_index": 12, "text": "In the end times.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So he writes books. Some of his books are about analyzing current events in the Middle East and talking about the root causes of terrorism. Other of his books are sort of - he has other books that are"}
{"id": "698887851", "date": "2019-02-28", "guest": "Mattathias Schwartz", "title": "Journalist Explains How Mike Pompeo Helps 'Translate Trump' To The World", "question_index": 13, "text": "Through the lens of the Bible.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He's also got books that are similar to the \"Left Behind\" series. They're literature about prophecy - biblical prophecy about the end of the world taking place on Earth. And then he even has at "}
{"id": "698887851", "date": "2019-02-28", "guest": "Mattathias Schwartz", "title": "Journalist Explains How Mike Pompeo Helps 'Translate Trump' To The World", "question_index": 14, "text": "So what's his relationship to Pompeo?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Through the lens of the Bible and through - and particularly with respect to the Middle East, and particularly the parts of the Bible that deal with the end of the world."}
{"id": "698887851", "date": "2019-02-28", "guest": "Mattathias Schwartz", "title": "Journalist Explains How Mike Pompeo Helps 'Translate Trump' To The World", "question_index": 15, "text": "So Rosenberg writes a lot about the rapture in fictional work. And Pompeo has referred to the rapture in at least one speech. He was speaking at a church and quoted or referred to the pastor Terry Fox, who had invited him there. And Pompeo said, we will continue to fight these battles. It's a never-ending struggle until that moment, folks, that Pastor Fox spoke about, until the rapture. Do you have any sense of how much Pompeo believes that the rapture is imminent, that the end times are imminent? And if he does believe that, if it has any effect on his politics?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "his books actually do have a lot of juicy, current stuff in them because he really is up to date with what's happening on the ground."}
{"id": "698887851", "date": "2019-02-28", "guest": "Mattathias Schwartz", "title": "Journalist Explains How Mike Pompeo Helps 'Translate Trump' To The World", "question_index": 16, "text": "My guest is Mattathias Schwartz. His article about Mike Pompeo will be in The New York Times Magazine on Sunday and is already on the website. We'll talk more after a break, and Justin Chang will review the new German film \"Transit,\" and Kevin Whitehead will review a new album by the jazz sextet Boom Tic Boom. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I asked Secretary Pompeo this question, whether there was an intersection at all between, you know, his reading of the Bible and his reading the end times and his policy in the Middle East, and he rea"}
{"id": "698887851", "date": "2019-02-28", "guest": "Mattathias Schwartz", "title": "Journalist Explains How Mike Pompeo Helps 'Translate Trump' To The World", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Mattathias Schwartz. He writes about Secretary of State Mike Pompeo in The New York Times Magazine. The article will be published in the Sunday paper but is already on the website. Schwartz describes Pompeo as the primary architect of Trump's negotiations over the nuclear arsenal controlled by North Korea's leader Kim Jong Un. The talks between Trump and Kim collapsed today with no agreement. Another part of Pompeo's job, according to Schwartz, is traveling the world, cleaning up Trump's messes after Trump tries to execute hairpin policy turns, often by tweet. Pompeo served as Trump's first CIA director and before that was a Republican congressman representing a district in Kansas. Let's talk a little bit about Mike Pompeo's background. He was born in 1963 in California. He went to West Point. You say his Christian faith intensified there. He belonged to a Bible study group. He graduated first in his class. Then after five years in the military, he went to Harvard Law School, where he was mentored by professor Mary Ann Glendon, a conservative Christian who later served as George W. Bush's ambassador to the Holy See in Rome. After the military and Harvard, you say he seemed to be headed for a corporate law career. That is the kind of career he started. But in the mid-'90s, he made a big change. He divorced his wife. He left a job at a big law firm. And he moved to Kansas to go into business with three West Point graduates. Would you describe the business?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I asked Secretary Pompeo this question, whether there was an intersection at all between, you know, his reading of the Bible and his reading the end times and his policy in the Middle East, and he rea"}
{"id": "698887851", "date": "2019-02-28", "guest": "Mattathias Schwartz", "title": "Journalist Explains How Mike Pompeo Helps 'Translate Trump' To The World", "question_index": 18, "text": "And the Koch brothers were big investors in Thayer Aerospace.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In the mid-'90s, Mike Pompeo and a group of friends from West Point started Thayer Aerospace, a company that is based in Wichita. It took outside capital and acquired smaller, family-owned companies a"}
{"id": "698887851", "date": "2019-02-28", "guest": "Mattathias Schwartz", "title": "Journalist Explains How Mike Pompeo Helps 'Translate Trump' To The World", "question_index": 19, "text": "Did they help fund his campaign later on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. The Koch brothers, you know, who run Koch Industries, who are these big, big, big billionaire donors in the Republican Party - they're based in Wichita, and they were among Pompeo's initial backe"}
{"id": "698887851", "date": "2019-02-28", "guest": "Mattathias Schwartz", "title": "Journalist Explains How Mike Pompeo Helps 'Translate Trump' To The World", "question_index": 20, "text": "Pompeo became part of the Tea Party. What was his role within the Tea Party? Was he one of the leaders?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. He was the largest recipient of money from the Koch brothers on the Hill. He was known as the congressman from Koch. They had given quite generously to his predecessor in the district as well. Hi"}
{"id": "698887851", "date": "2019-02-28", "guest": "Mattathias Schwartz", "title": "Journalist Explains How Mike Pompeo Helps 'Translate Trump' To The World", "question_index": 21, "text": "You profile Pompeo in the current edition of The New York Times Magazine. In an earlier issue, you profiled John Brennan, who had been the CIA director under President Obama. And so since you've both profiled two former CIA directors, Pompeo - that was his first job in the Trump administration - and Brennan, and since Brennan has been such a vocal critic of President Trump and since President Trump, after some really cutting criticisms of him, said he would strip Brennan of his security clearance, I thought it might be interesting to compare Pompeo and Brennan.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Among the wave of anti-Obama firebrand congressmen who came in in 2010, Pompeo is one of the guys who really steeped himself in policy and really learned how to critique the administration and find wh"}
{"id": "698887851", "date": "2019-02-28", "guest": "Mattathias Schwartz", "title": "Journalist Explains How Mike Pompeo Helps 'Translate Trump' To The World", "question_index": 22, "text": "Pompeo is one of the few original members of the Trump administration in high-level positions who is still there in a high-level position. Many others were forced out, or they walked out. So what do you attribute to Pompeo's ability to stay within the administration?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, they have a lot of differences. They're both very, very smart, and that's not a word that I just hand out like candy. They're smart guys. Often people very close to the president - I think this "}
{"id": "698887851", "date": "2019-02-28", "guest": "Mattathias Schwartz", "title": "Journalist Explains How Mike Pompeo Helps 'Translate Trump' To The World", "question_index": 23, "text": "Well, that leads to something similar that I was going to ask you about. Some people see some Pompeo as the adult in the room in the Trump administration, and others see him as a Trump enabler. Can you make a case for both sides? Can you describe both sides?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There are a lot of people in Washington - and I wasn't able to quote all of them - who despise the president, who castigate him on Twitter but who think very well of Pompeo, though they may not go on "}
{"id": "698887851", "date": "2019-02-28", "guest": "Mattathias Schwartz", "title": "Journalist Explains How Mike Pompeo Helps 'Translate Trump' To The World", "question_index": 24, "text": "So that'd be an argument for Pompeo being the adult in the room.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It comes down to, what are his interactions with the president really like? If you wanted to say that Pompeo is a Trump whisperer, you would look at what's happened with the president's policies"}
{"id": "698887851", "date": "2019-02-28", "guest": "Mattathias Schwartz", "title": "Journalist Explains How Mike Pompeo Helps 'Translate Trump' To The World", "question_index": 25, "text": "And what's the argument for him being the enabler?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it would be."}
{"id": "698887851", "date": "2019-02-28", "guest": "Mattathias Schwartz", "title": "Journalist Explains How Mike Pompeo Helps 'Translate Trump' To The World", "question_index": 26, "text": "Well, Mattathias Schwartz, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If you want to see Pompeo as an enabler, look at what's happened in the case of Jamal Khashoggi, The Washington Post journalist and resident of Virginia who was, all the evidence suggests, brutally mu"}
{"id": "698887851", "date": "2019-02-28", "guest": "Mattathias Schwartz", "title": "Journalist Explains How Mike Pompeo Helps 'Translate Trump' To The World", "question_index": 27, "text": "Mattathias Schwartz is a contributing writer at The New York Times Magazine. His article about Mike Pompeo will be in the magazine on Sunday and is already on the website. After we take a short break, Kevin Whitehead will review a new album by the jazz sextet Boom Tic Boom. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you, Terry. It's so good to be here."}
{"id": "698908276", "date": "2019-03-01", "guest": "Jim Nicholson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Philadelphia Daily News' Obituary Writer Jim Nicholson", "question_index": 0, "text": "Welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. There was a time when newspaper obituaries focused mostly on the rich and famous. Jim Nicholson changed that. The obit writer for the Philadelph"}
{"id": "698908276", "date": "2019-03-01", "guest": "Jim Nicholson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Philadelphia Daily News' Obituary Writer Jim Nicholson", "question_index": 1, "text": "Now, I've chosen some excerpts of obituaries that you've written that I'd like for you to read for us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. It's a pleasure to be here."}
{"id": "698908276", "date": "2019-03-01", "guest": "Jim Nicholson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Philadelphia Daily News' Obituary Writer Jim Nicholson", "question_index": 2, "text": "This last obituary that you read, this is not the kind of guy who you'd usually read about on an obituary page. He did not lead a celebrated life. I don't know if there are any big landmarks in his life. Why did you choose him to write about on your obituary page?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. The first one is Joseph Joe The Goat DaRito (ph). Hardly anyone, including his family, is exactly sure what he did during his 20 years at the Philadelphia Parking Authority, but that was regarded "}
{"id": "698908276", "date": "2019-03-01", "guest": "Jim Nicholson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Philadelphia Daily News' Obituary Writer Jim Nicholson", "question_index": 3, "text": "Did you know right away when you started the obit page that you wanted to write obituaries about people from the neighborhoods?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Terry, like most people on my obituary page, he had no so-called credentials to even get there had it been an orthodox obit page. But he did live a life. He lived a good life. Larry was one of t"}
{"id": "698908276", "date": "2019-03-01", "guest": "Jim Nicholson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Philadelphia Daily News' Obituary Writer Jim Nicholson", "question_index": 4, "text": "I think of your obituaries as being a little like eulogies in that they describe the person from the perspective of people who knew them and loved them and who loved their eccentricities and appreciated them for that. And I wonder how you feel about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, from the very first. The very first obit, October 18, 1982, was on a stakeout police officer who had died, and it's been that way ever since. There was never any question."}
{"id": "698908276", "date": "2019-03-01", "guest": "Jim Nicholson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Philadelphia Daily News' Obituary Writer Jim Nicholson", "question_index": 5, "text": "Most feature stories and articles in newspapers just get thrown out after they're read. I bet your obituaries are saved for many years.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they are eulogies. In fact, some priests and ministers will read them from the pulpit at a service. Being in a newspaper, it gives it almost a false sense of authority. You know, the printed wor"}
{"id": "698908276", "date": "2019-03-01", "guest": "Jim Nicholson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Philadelphia Daily News' Obituary Writer Jim Nicholson", "question_index": 6, "text": "You get people to tell you wonderful things. This is from one of your obituaries. You write, (reading) he was an expert driver who could weave a car through heavy traffic in record time while singing a romantic ballad. He knew the words to every mushy song from the 1930s through the 1950s. That's great. I mean, who would tell a reporter that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my gosh, Terry, they're almost immortal. The greatest investigative piece I ever wrote when I thought I was really important never survived more than a few weeks in terms of being kept around. But"}
{"id": "698908276", "date": "2019-03-01", "guest": "Jim Nicholson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Philadelphia Daily News' Obituary Writer Jim Nicholson", "question_index": 7, "text": "Your obituary page has become very popular, and I imagine a lot of people pursue you now so that you can write an obituary about their deceased friend or relative. How do you decide who you're actually going to cover?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they don't tell you this right at first. Initially, people in a phone interview - and most of mine are by phone - will tell you what is proper and right and they think should be on the record. B"}
{"id": "698908276", "date": "2019-03-01", "guest": "Jim Nicholson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Philadelphia Daily News' Obituary Writer Jim Nicholson", "question_index": 8, "text": "Have you ever had to say to anybody, I'm sorry, but your mother or your grandmother isn't interesting enough or important enough to get into the paper?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Generally - well, I'm not not pursued that heavily that I can't handle it yet, but I've been able to write obits on virtually everybody who calls. And it's sufficient. And I get calls from, say, a 14-"}
{"id": "698908276", "date": "2019-03-01", "guest": "Jim Nicholson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Philadelphia Daily News' Obituary Writer Jim Nicholson", "question_index": 9, "text": "There's a lot of obituary jokes. I know one or two. Like, I always read the obituaries to see if I'm dead, and people are dying who never died before. Do people tell you a lot of obit jokes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Never. Never. Nonsense. There is no uninteresting obits, only uninteresting questions asked by a reporter."}
{"id": "698908276", "date": "2019-03-01", "guest": "Jim Nicholson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Philadelphia Daily News' Obituary Writer Jim Nicholson", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I am the the butt of a lot of obit jokes."}
{"id": "698908276", "date": "2019-03-01", "guest": "Jim Nicholson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Philadelphia Daily News' Obituary Writer Jim Nicholson", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Myself and the Enquirer obituary writer, we've heard them all. And, you know, they nicknamed me Dr. Death and all this sort of thing. And so I get back at them sometimes. In the elevator, I'll say to "}
{"id": "698908276", "date": "2019-03-01", "guest": "Jim Nicholson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Philadelphia Daily News' Obituary Writer Jim Nicholson", "question_index": 12, "text": "I guess, in a way - I hate to bring this up, but you know that now you will be eligible for one of the really large", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And they'll look at me twice."}
{"id": "698908276", "date": "2019-03-01", "guest": "Jim Nicholson", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Philadelphia Daily News' Obituary Writer Jim Nicholson", "question_index": 13, "text": ", official obituaries because you've made such an important contribution to the city. You know, it's a funny thing to bring up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And they'll look at me twice."}
{"id": "698914065", "date": "2019-03-01", "guest": "Gene Kelly", "title": "Remembering 'Singin' In The Rain' Co-Director Stanley Donen", "question_index": 0, "text": "And where did the rain come from?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "People believe these things happen spontaneously. Certainly, dance numbers are anything but spontaneous. They're worked out in great detail over quite a long period of time. And so we decided where, h"}
{"id": "698914065", "date": "2019-03-01", "guest": "Gene Kelly", "title": "Remembering 'Singin' In The Rain' Co-Director Stanley Donen", "question_index": 1, "text": "Did you make the temperature of the water warm so that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Pipes. It came from the Culver City water supply, pipes overhead feeding the rain."}
{"id": "698914065", "date": "2019-03-01", "guest": "Gene Kelly", "title": "Remembering 'Singin' In The Rain' Co-Director Stanley Donen", "question_index": 2, "text": "Gene Kelly's muscles wouldn't be...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Was not necessary."}
{"id": "698914065", "date": "2019-03-01", "guest": "Gene Kelly", "title": "Remembering 'Singin' In The Rain' Co-Director Stanley Donen", "question_index": 3, "text": "Now, you work with Gene Kelly. You also work with Fred Astaire on the films \"Royal Wedding\" and \"Funny Face.\" Now, did you have a different approach to shooting each of them since their approach to dance was different?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, on the contrary, it was so hot in there, it would have been nice if the water had been cool. We were in mid-summer, and we were under black canvas. So - in the bright daylight, we didn't shoot it "}
{"id": "698914065", "date": "2019-03-01", "guest": "Gene Kelly", "title": "Remembering 'Singin' In The Rain' Co-Director Stanley Donen", "question_index": 4, "text": "Could you describe the difference in shooting them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "698914065", "date": "2019-03-01", "guest": "Gene Kelly", "title": "Remembering 'Singin' In The Rain' Co-Director Stanley Donen", "question_index": 5, "text": "There's a dance scene I want you to talk about that's very mysterious when you see it. It's the dancing on the ceiling sequence, the sequence that your biography is named after. This is the Fred Astaire dance number from...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, because Gene's movements are basically athletic and the force of the movement is important to get the thrill of watching him dance, it's harder to produce that on film because film is not able t"}
{"id": "698914065", "date": "2019-03-01", "guest": "Gene Kelly", "title": "Remembering 'Singin' In The Rain' Co-Director Stanley Donen", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yeah, from \"Royal Wedding.\" So, I mean, he dances on the floor, and the walls and the ceiling on this. What did you do to create that illusion?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "From \"Royal Wedding.\""}
{"id": "698914065", "date": "2019-03-01", "guest": "Gene Kelly", "title": "Remembering 'Singin' In The Rain' Co-Director Stanley Donen", "question_index": 7, "text": "So did the choreography have to be done in such a way as to coincide with the turning of the room?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We had to build a room inside a wheel - or a barrel, if you like - which turned slowly and in which the camera turned with the room as well as the lights and everything in the room. And its turning ha"}
{"id": "698914065", "date": "2019-03-01", "guest": "Gene Kelly", "title": "Remembering 'Singin' In The Rain' Co-Director Stanley Donen", "question_index": 8, "text": "You say in your biography that the most difficult part in a film musical is making that transition from talking into dancing or talking into singing. And I could see how that would be the most difficult - the most difficult part. What are some of the ways you've gotten around that in production numbers to try to make a smooth transition?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, and the turning of the room had to coincide with the choreography and so on. They had to marry each other. And that only could happen with trial and error."}
{"id": "698914065", "date": "2019-03-01", "guest": "Gene Kelly", "title": "Remembering 'Singin' In The Rain' Co-Director Stanley Donen", "question_index": 9, "text": "Yeah, and in \"Moses Supposes\" they start talking about that before...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we try any number of ways. In the number we were just talking about, in - \"All The World To Me\" is the name of the song where he dances around the room - you hear him singing. But actually his l"}
{"id": "698914065", "date": "2019-03-01", "guest": "Gene Kelly", "title": "Remembering 'Singin' In The Rain' Co-Director Stanley Donen", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yeah. Well, what goes wrong if that transition isn't done just right? Do you think the audience thinks it looks foolish?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In \"Moses Supposes,\" they're talking the lyric. That's right. And then the music joins the talk. So there are, I hope, endless ways of avoiding a catastrophe at that moment."}
{"id": "698914065", "date": "2019-03-01", "guest": "Gene Kelly", "title": "Remembering 'Singin' In The Rain' Co-Director Stanley Donen", "question_index": 11, "text": "Now, when you worked at MGM - or at least I think most the time you were at MGM - Louis B. Mayer was the head of the studio.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "People laugh is what goes wrong. They think this is highly unlikely. People don't sing in this situation. They think, why - why are they doing that? It seems not real, not acceptable. And it makes the"}
{"id": "698914065", "date": "2019-03-01", "guest": "Gene Kelly", "title": "Remembering 'Singin' In The Rain' Co-Director Stanley Donen", "question_index": 12, "text": "Just part of the time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not really."}
{"id": "698914065", "date": "2019-03-01", "guest": "Gene Kelly", "title": "Remembering 'Singin' In The Rain' Co-Director Stanley Donen", "question_index": 13, "text": "Wow. What was Mayer like to work with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, by the time we did \"Singin' In The Rain,\" Dore Schary was there running the studio. Mayer was still there, but the decisions were made by Dore Schary."}
{"id": "698914065", "date": "2019-03-01", "guest": "Gene Kelly", "title": "Remembering 'Singin' In The Rain' Co-Director Stanley Donen", "question_index": 14, "text": "Shiny surfaces?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I knew him very slightly. He was - clearly he had a large input into what kind of films were made. He was someone who - I think if he were alive today, he couldn't bear it. He would have lost his mind"}
{"id": "698914065", "date": "2019-03-01", "guest": "Gene Kelly", "title": "Remembering 'Singin' In The Rain' Co-Director Stanley Donen", "question_index": 15, "text": "What was the process of fighting like? Would you go into his office and make your case?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, he didn't like things reflecting. So MGM films, unless you fought very hard, had a very soft look to them. He didn't like dark shadows, so MGM black-and-white films had filled-in light in the sha"}
{"id": "698914065", "date": "2019-03-01", "guest": "Gene Kelly", "title": "Remembering 'Singin' In The Rain' Co-Director Stanley Donen", "question_index": 16, "text": "Now I want to ask you about your musical \"Funny Face,\" which starred Fred Astaire as a fashion photographer and Audrey Hepburn as a young woman who is kind of bullied into becoming a fashion model.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1996 interview with Stanley Donen, who directed the film \"Singin' In the Rain,\" \"Damn Yankees,\" \"Royal Wedding\" and other classic Hollywood musicals."}
{"id": "698914065", "date": "2019-03-01", "guest": "Gene Kelly", "title": "Remembering 'Singin' In The Rain' Co-Director Stanley Donen", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yes. Yes. And she really wants to be a kind of beatnik. And anyways, they, of course, fall in love, you know, Hepburn and Fred Astaire. Although he's really much older than she is, which isn't spoken about in the film. But how are they paired together, Astaire and Hepburn?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Antagonistic to fashion."}
{"id": "698914065", "date": "2019-03-01", "guest": "Gene Kelly", "title": "Remembering 'Singin' In The Rain' Co-Director Stanley Donen", "question_index": 18, "text": "Yeah. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "By - you mean by our casting?"}
{"id": "698914065", "date": "2019-03-01", "guest": "Gene Kelly", "title": "Remembering 'Singin' In The Rain' Co-Director Stanley Donen", "question_index": 19, "text": "Now, Audrey Hepburn, who wrote the introduction to your biography, says that she was so nervous about dancing with Astaire, she actually lost her breakfast. She threw up the morning of the first performance together. Were you aware of how nervous she was?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, who are - we just thought - who are the best people to play these parts? Fred Astaire and Audrey Hepburn. And lo and behold, we got them. That was the unbelievable part of it. We got Audrey Hepb"}
{"id": "698914065", "date": "2019-03-01", "guest": "Gene Kelly", "title": "Remembering 'Singin' In The Rain' Co-Director Stanley Donen", "question_index": 20, "text": "And was he...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. It is terrifying to work with Fred Astaire, particularly if you're a dancer, as Audrey Hepburn is - was a very trained dancer. So Fred Astaire was everyone's idol. And, suddenly, she was thrust i"}
{"id": "698914065", "date": "2019-03-01", "guest": "Gene Kelly", "title": "Remembering 'Singin' In The Rain' Co-Director Stanley Donen", "question_index": 21, "text": "Another movie I want to ask you about is \"On The Town.\" Three guys on leave in New York, and this - some of these numbers are actually shot in the streets of New York, which - you've pointed out this isn't the first time that production numbers were shot on location. But it was still unusual. In fact, I think you had to fight to shoot the movie in New York instead of on the set in Hollywood.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very gentle. Very helpful. Very - he had been through this with other people that were equally terrified of working with him. So he had - but he loved Audrey, as everyone did."}
{"id": "698914065", "date": "2019-03-01", "guest": "Gene Kelly", "title": "Remembering 'Singin' In The Rain' Co-Director Stanley Donen", "question_index": 22, "text": "What were you up against in New York, since the city was probably not used to movies being shot on the streets?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. That is right. Yes. We had to fight very hard. We didn't shoot as much as we wanted to shoot in New York, but we did get a bit of the movie done in New York."}
{"id": "698914065", "date": "2019-03-01", "guest": "Gene Kelly", "title": "Remembering 'Singin' In The Rain' Co-Director Stanley Donen", "question_index": 23, "text": "Now, there were three leads - three male leads - Frank Sinatra, Gene Kelly and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. The city was not used to it and certainly wasn't used to Frank Sinatra in a sailor suit singing on the street. So we had problems of crowd control, and - or hiding a camera or trying to get the sh"}
{"id": "698914065", "date": "2019-03-01", "guest": "Gene Kelly", "title": "Remembering 'Singin' In The Rain' Co-Director Stanley Donen", "question_index": 24, "text": "Jules Munshin, yeah. And he apparently was afraid of heights? And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Jules Munshin."}
{"id": "698914065", "date": "2019-03-01", "guest": "Gene Kelly", "title": "Remembering 'Singin' In The Rain' Co-Director Stanley Donen", "question_index": 25, "text": "And where was the production number on top of a building that you had to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was terrified of heights."}
{"id": "698914065", "date": "2019-03-01", "guest": "Gene Kelly", "title": "Remembering 'Singin' In The Rain' Co-Director Stanley Donen", "question_index": 26, "text": "Did you know that he was afraid of heights when you cast him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there were several. There were several. There was one on top of the RCA building, but it turned out he was even afraid - when we got to New York to shoot, he said, can my room be on the ground f"}
{"id": "698914065", "date": "2019-03-01", "guest": "Gene Kelly", "title": "Remembering 'Singin' In The Rain' Co-Director Stanley Donen", "question_index": 27, "text": "Well, you must've had a sinking feeling in your stomach. You had the production numbers planned already.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not when we - when I cast him, it never occurred to me, no. When we - it didn't - none of us were aware of it till we got on a plane and wanted to come to New York. I didn't fly with him, so I don't k"}
{"id": "698914065", "date": "2019-03-01", "guest": "Gene Kelly", "title": "Remembering 'Singin' In The Rain' Co-Director Stanley Donen", "question_index": 28, "text": "Now, how did Sinatra and Kelly get along?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Well, we did what best we can. We sometimes put Jules Munshin between Sinatra and Kelly so he would feel somewhat supported by them in these high spots. But the whole sequence wasn't done up on t"}
{"id": "698914065", "date": "2019-03-01", "guest": "Gene Kelly", "title": "Remembering 'Singin' In The Rain' Co-Director Stanley Donen", "question_index": 29, "text": "But Sinatra was hard to work with, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They got along great. They were great friends from before that. We had done - this was the third picture that Kelly, Sinatra and I had worked on together. So they were great buddies and remained so un"}
{"id": "700341774", "date": "2019-03-05", "guest": "Alex Kotlowitz", "title": "'An American Summer' Looks At How Gun Violence 'Gets In People's Bones'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. After mass shootings, like the ones at Newtown and Parkland, we ask, how can this happen? How do we carry on in the aftermath of such violence? My guest, journalist Alex Kotlowitz, says those are the right questions, but we don't ask the same questions when it comes to the children and teenagers in our city's poorest and most violent neighborhoods, like Chicago's South and West Sides, who are watching their friends and family members get shot. Kotlowitz tells some of their stories in his new book, \"An American Summer: Love And Death In Chicago.\" The summer he writes about is 2013. He interviewed people who survived shootings. He interviewed the loved ones of people who didn't survive and people who confessed to taking another person's life. Kotlowitz says he also attended bond hearings and trials, hung out on street corners, attended funerals and vigils, visited people in prison, showed up at crime scenes and embedded with a homicide unit. Kotlowitz wrote the 1991 book, \"There Are No Children Here,\" which followed the lives of two boys, brothers growing up in one of Chicago's housing projects. One of those boys, Pharaoh, later lived with Kotlowitz for six years. Four of the kids Kotlowitz befriended while writing that book have been murdered. Kotlowitz was one of the producers of the documentary, \"The Interrupters,\" about a group of men and women in Chicago who try to show up on the scene and stop gang violence before it erupts. He's received a George Polk Award, two Peabodys and the Robert F. Kennedy Journalism Award. He teaches at Northwestern University. Alex Kotlowitz, welcome back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "700341774", "date": "2019-03-05", "guest": "Alex Kotlowitz", "title": "'An American Summer' Looks At How Gun Violence 'Gets In People's Bones'", "question_index": 1, "text": "There's a line or two I want you to read from your book before we start talking. And I've told you what that part is. So if you could read it for us - 'cause I think it helps set us up for the stories you're going to be telling us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thanks for having me, Terry."}
{"id": "700341774", "date": "2019-03-05", "guest": "Alex Kotlowitz", "title": "'An American Summer' Looks At How Gun Violence 'Gets In People's Bones'", "question_index": 2, "text": "Why do you think violence has made it so hard to talk about violence, or race or poverty?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. (Reading) Chicago has become a symbol for the personal and collective wreckage, a kind of protracted cry of distress in the streets of the nation's most impoverished and segregated neighborhoods"}
{"id": "700341774", "date": "2019-03-05", "guest": "Alex Kotlowitz", "title": "'An American Summer' Looks At How Gun Violence 'Gets In People's Bones'", "question_index": 3, "text": "So why do you want to write - instead of writing about policy and looking at, like, the really big picture, you're focusing on the lives of individual people who are caught up in this violence and whose lives are ended or permanently changed by violence.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, the problem is, is that for many, I think that many look in on these communities and see this violence as something pathological, that there's something wrong with these communities. A"}
{"id": "700341774", "date": "2019-03-05", "guest": "Alex Kotlowitz", "title": "'An American Summer' Looks At How Gun Violence 'Gets In People's Bones'", "question_index": 4, "text": "So there's a story I want to focus on right now, and that's the story you tell of a woman named Lisa Daniels, who was working as an administrative assistant to a vice president at the Museum of Science and Industry in Chicago. Her son, Darren (ph), was shot and killed. How was he killed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, for me, I mean, I've been writing about this for some 30 years now, and the thing that's most striking to me is the kind of glibness that we speak about the violence in our cities. You know,"}
{"id": "700341774", "date": "2019-03-05", "guest": "Alex Kotlowitz", "title": "'An American Summer' Looks At How Gun Violence 'Gets In People's Bones'", "question_index": 5, "text": "You also write that she felt a sense of relief. Did she explain what she meant by that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So she had two sons, and her older son was a engineering student at University of Illinois, and her younger one, Darren, kind of wandered. He strayed. And everything - she tried everything she c"}
{"id": "700341774", "date": "2019-03-05", "guest": "Alex Kotlowitz", "title": "'An American Summer' Looks At How Gun Violence 'Gets In People's Bones'", "question_index": 6, "text": "So after Darren is killed, Lisa writes a Facebook post. And I'd like you to read an excerpt of that for us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, this kind of - what has been described to me as kind of this compassionate relief. She worried about Darren all the time. She worried that he was going to get hurt. She worried he would get arre"}
{"id": "700341774", "date": "2019-03-05", "guest": "Alex Kotlowitz", "title": "'An American Summer' Looks At How Gun Violence 'Gets In People's Bones'", "question_index": 7, "text": "That's an amazingly compassionate posting, compassionate for the shooter of her son and for the shooter's mother. And it sounds very forgiving. But then Lisa was asked by Michael - the shooter's mother to take a step further and actually go to court and ask for more leniency.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So she writes, (reading) another mother has lost her son. Only, this loss is different. Today the man who shot Darren has been charged with first-degree murder. There is no victory here. And I can onl"}
{"id": "700341774", "date": "2019-03-05", "guest": "Alex Kotlowitz", "title": "'An American Summer' Looks At How Gun Violence 'Gets In People's Bones'", "question_index": 8, "text": "I'm going to ask you to read an excerpt of Lisa's victim impact statement that she read in court.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So she's actually not asked by the mother, but she does - but Lisa does. I mean, she's an amazing woman. And I think she realized that the lines here were so blurred, you know, between shooter "}
{"id": "700341774", "date": "2019-03-05", "guest": "Alex Kotlowitz", "title": "'An American Summer' Looks At How Gun Violence 'Gets In People's Bones'", "question_index": 9, "text": "What impact did that statement have?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. So in court, she says, (reading) I have and will always continue to speak on Darren's behalf. But today I speak for you, Michael Reed, because the truth is that things could have gone differentl"}
{"id": "700341774", "date": "2019-03-05", "guest": "Alex Kotlowitz", "title": "'An American Summer' Looks At How Gun Violence 'Gets In People's Bones'", "question_index": 10, "text": "I think it's really a remarkable story. And I'm so glad that you wrote about it. And she started a restorative justice group.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I don't know that it had the - much impact on the sentence itself. But Michael Read, on his way out of court, after hearing that, just turns around - he's handcuffed - and turns around and p"}
{"id": "700341774", "date": "2019-03-05", "guest": "Alex Kotlowitz", "title": "'An American Summer' Looks At How Gun Violence 'Gets In People's Bones'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Do you think we're maybe at the beginning of an inflection point where things are starting to change a little in the criminal justice system?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She has. She started a restorative justice group in the name of her son. And moreover, since I've finished writing the book, she was appointed to the state parole board, which is now her full-time job"}
{"id": "700341774", "date": "2019-03-05", "guest": "Alex Kotlowitz", "title": "'An American Summer' Looks At How Gun Violence 'Gets In People's Bones'", "question_index": 12, "text": "If Kim Foxx's name sounds very familiar to people, it might be because she was presiding over the R. Kelly case in Chicago.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Oh, I think there's no doubt about it. I mean, I think for the first time in a long time, there's agreement across the political spectrum that something has got to change. I mean, the kind of in"}
{"id": "700341774", "date": "2019-03-05", "guest": "Alex Kotlowitz", "title": "'An American Summer' Looks At How Gun Violence 'Gets In People's Bones'", "question_index": 13, "text": "So Alex, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Alex Kotlowitz, who has been chronicling stories of how violence affects children in Chicago. He's been doing this for 30 years. And his new book is called \"An American Summer: Love And Death In Chicago.\" And he writes about one summer in Chicago - 2013 - and people whose lives were changed forever because of violence that summer. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "700341774", "date": "2019-03-05", "guest": "Alex Kotlowitz", "title": "'An American Summer' Looks At How Gun Violence 'Gets In People's Bones'", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And my guest is journalist Alex Kotlowitz. And for 30 years, he's been writing about how violence affects young people and their parents and their families in Chicago. And his new book is called \"An American Summer: Love And Death In Chicago.\" And it's stories from one summer - 2013 - in Chicago. He's also the author of \"There Are No Children Here,\" a book you may know. Your book \"There Are No Children Here\" was published in 1991. And that followed two children living in one of Chicago's housing project, Pharoah and his brother Lafeyette. And I think it was after the book was published, Pharoah asked to live with you for a couple of weeks because his home was so noisy and chaotic. And he wanted to focus on his schoolwork. And you write about this in your new book, that a couple of weeks turned into six years...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "700341774", "date": "2019-03-05", "guest": "Alex Kotlowitz", "title": "'An American Summer' Looks At How Gun Violence 'Gets In People's Bones'", "question_index": 15, "text": "...Of him living with you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "700341774", "date": "2019-03-05", "guest": "Alex Kotlowitz", "title": "'An American Summer' Looks At How Gun Violence 'Gets In People's Bones'", "question_index": 16, "text": "And, you know, as a human being and also as a journalist, why did you say yes when the subject of your journalism asked you to become a part of his life in a brand new way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It did."}
{"id": "700341774", "date": "2019-03-05", "guest": "Alex Kotlowitz", "title": "'An American Summer' Looks At How Gun Violence 'Gets In People's Bones'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Were you concerned that other people you wrote about would be asking you to move in or to help you in some way, knowing what you did for Pharoah?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". When we got married, my - bless my wife's heart - I mean, he moved in with us when we got married and stayed with us through high school."}
{"id": "700341774", "date": "2019-03-05", "guest": "Alex Kotlowitz", "title": "'An American Summer' Looks At How Gun Violence 'Gets In People's Bones'", "question_index": 18, "text": "What was his family's reaction to him going to live with you? It's not like he was an orphan.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I guess I wasn't concerned about that. I mean, I think one of the things that became clear to me, though, when Pharoah moved in with us - I thought that, you know, this is pretty clear cut, that w"}
{"id": "700341774", "date": "2019-03-05", "guest": "Alex Kotlowitz", "title": "'An American Summer' Looks At How Gun Violence 'Gets In People's Bones'", "question_index": 19, "text": "So compare your neighborhood to the neighborhood that Pharoah had been living in with his family.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. You know, his mother actually was really supportive. I mean, she knew that - she wanted the absolute best for him. And we didn't live very far from her, so he was able to go home and visit quit"}
{"id": "700341774", "date": "2019-03-05", "guest": "Alex Kotlowitz", "title": "'An American Summer' Looks At How Gun Violence 'Gets In People's Bones'", "question_index": 20, "text": "So you were able to send Pharoah to a different school. You sent him to summer camp. And when he asked to go to Military Academy, you sent him there. Did you think that giving him a quiet, stable home, good schools, attention would turn his life around, that it would be a kind of - that it would be transformational for the better?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. So I lived in - I live in Oak Park, which - we just live four blocks over the Chicago border. So it's a place that's, you know, of, as Hemingway said, narrow minds and wide lawns. I don't know i"}
{"id": "700341774", "date": "2019-03-05", "guest": "Alex Kotlowitz", "title": "'An American Summer' Looks At How Gun Violence 'Gets In People's Bones'", "question_index": 21, "text": "And you think that's why Pharoah wanted to get away out of town.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I think there was this notion and, you know, this kind of naive notion that you can come into somebody's life and sort of rescue them. And, again, it was very complicated. And, in fact, "}
{"id": "700341774", "date": "2019-03-05", "guest": "Alex Kotlowitz", "title": "'An American Summer' Looks At How Gun Violence 'Gets In People's Bones'", "question_index": 22, "text": "My guest is Alex Kotlowitz. His new book is called \"An American Summer.\" We'll talk more after a break, and Ken Tucker will review the new country album by Maren Morris. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. I think he saw that he was getting pulled. And he wanted to - he realized he needed that physical distance."}
{"id": "700341774", "date": "2019-03-05", "guest": "Alex Kotlowitz", "title": "'An American Summer' Looks At How Gun Violence 'Gets In People's Bones'", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Alex Kotlowitz, author of the new book \"An American Summer: Love And Death In Chicago.\" It focuses on people whose lives were changed or ended by gun violence in Chicago during the summer of 2013. In 1991, he wrote the book \"There Are No Children Here,\" which followed the lives of two young brothers growing up in one of Chicago's housing projects. One of those boys, Pharoah, ended up living with Kotlowitz for six years. When we left off, we were talking about how Pharoah asked Kotlowitz to send him to a Military Academy. Otherwise, he'd be pulled into the street life like his brother. So once he got out of town, did he stay out of trouble?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. I think he saw that he was getting pulled. And he wanted to - he realized he needed that physical distance."}
{"id": "700341774", "date": "2019-03-05", "guest": "Alex Kotlowitz", "title": "'An American Summer' Looks At How Gun Violence 'Gets In People's Bones'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Well, yeah. You switch to years later when you're with him having lunch. And you ask him something about the murder. And he tells you - just describe what happened. He tells you the story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, he got into some trouble at the school. And he ended up getting kicked out. And he came back and went to the local high school and graduated and actually got into Southern Illinois Universit"}
{"id": "700341774", "date": "2019-03-05", "guest": "Alex Kotlowitz", "title": "'An American Summer' Looks At How Gun Violence 'Gets In People's Bones'", "question_index": 25, "text": "It sounds like post-traumatic stress disorder.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So we go out to lunch, and I begin to ask him about the murder. This is actually probably - well, this is almost probably 15 years later. And we're out to lunch. And I'm asking him about the mu"}
{"id": "700341774", "date": "2019-03-05", "guest": "Alex Kotlowitz", "title": "'An American Summer' Looks At How Gun Violence 'Gets In People's Bones'", "question_index": 26, "text": "Wow. So what's Pharoah doing now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is. There's no question about it. And the worst of it is - and this is not unusual - is he had not talked with anybody about that moment in those 15 years."}
{"id": "700341774", "date": "2019-03-05", "guest": "Alex Kotlowitz", "title": "'An American Summer' Looks At How Gun Violence 'Gets In People's Bones'", "question_index": 27, "text": "So getting back to the post-traumatic stress disorder that you think Pharoah experienced after having witnessed the murder and that 15 years later, it was still with him, still traumatizing him - there's a group that was created by somebody else who you write about in the book, somebody who had shot and killed a man, spent years in prison, got out and, you know, was an adult, was a different person, was no longer into the street life. But anyways, he founded a group that brings together people who have PTSD as a result of growing up with so much violence in Chicago and combat vets who have PTSD from war zones. What's the reason for bringing them together?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Pharoah's, you know, he's - Pharoah's - I think he's 40, 41. I'm going to get his age wrong. But he's working at a factory. And he's doing OK. I mean, I still - you know, I talk to him quite regularly"}
{"id": "700341774", "date": "2019-03-05", "guest": "Alex Kotlowitz", "title": "'An American Summer' Looks At How Gun Violence 'Gets In People's Bones'", "question_index": 28, "text": "So the source of the stress doesn't end.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So yeah. That's Eddie Bocanegra, who is just this amazing individual. He - as you mentioned, when he was 18, in an act of retaliation, he - a friend of his had been shot and paralyzed. And Eddi"}
{"id": "700341774", "date": "2019-03-05", "guest": "Alex Kotlowitz", "title": "'An American Summer' Looks At How Gun Violence 'Gets In People's Bones'", "question_index": 29, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Alex Kotlowitz. And he's the author of a new book \"An American Summer: Life And Death In Chicago.\" And it's the stories of people whose lives were permanently changed or ended by violence in Chicago during that one summer. He's been reporting on violence in Chicago for about 30 years. We'll be right back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Right. And there's a name for it. I mean, they call it complex trauma, where the trauma - there's no end to the trauma."}
{"id": "700341774", "date": "2019-03-05", "guest": "Alex Kotlowitz", "title": "'An American Summer' Looks At How Gun Violence 'Gets In People's Bones'", "question_index": 30, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Alex Kotlowitz, and he's been writing about violence in Chicago and the people most affected by it - victims, shooters, their parents, their communities - for about 30 years. His first book was called \"There Are No Children Here.\" He co-produced the documentary, \"The Interrupters,\" about a group of people whose job it is in Chicago, who gave themselves this job of trying to intervene to prevent violence, to prevent gang violence before it started. His new book, Alex Kotlowitz's new book, is called \"An American Summer: Life And Death In Chicago,\" and it's the stories of several people during one summer in Chicago, 2013, who were affected by gun violence or who lost their lives in gun violence. One of the things I think your book shows is how people can change, if given the chance and if allowed to live. If they make it to adulthood without being killed, that they might kind of grow up and grow out of the life of street violence. I mean, not necessarily, but there's that possibility there. And I think there's something so valuable to hold onto about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Right. And there's a name for it. I mean, they call it complex trauma, where the trauma - there's no end to the trauma."}
{"id": "700341774", "date": "2019-03-05", "guest": "Alex Kotlowitz", "title": "'An American Summer' Looks At How Gun Violence 'Gets In People's Bones'", "question_index": 31, "text": "But, you know, we're not going to kind of change the scope of violence in American cities on a one-to-one basis. There's systemic problems that really have to be addressed. And sometimes we take, like, the wrong approach to doing it. I mean, I'm curious your reaction when President Trump tweeted in February of 2017 - if Chicago doesn't fix the horrible carnage going on, I will send in the feds. I know you must think that's the wrong approach. Explain why.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Absolutely. I mean, I think there's this kind of notion that we're somehow, as human beings, we're these static things that don't change. But we all change over time. And so you see that in some o"}
{"id": "700341774", "date": "2019-03-05", "guest": "Alex Kotlowitz", "title": "'An American Summer' Looks At How Gun Violence 'Gets In People's Bones'", "question_index": 32, "text": "So, you know, you tell a story of a U.S. senator from Illinois who is determined to break up a gang so he goes to the community where this gang is in, talks with some of the people from the community. And they insist, you're talking about this gang like they're these, like, enemy outsiders. These are our uncles, our nephews, our brother.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Well, I think there's this notion that somehow there's an enemy out there. And there's not. And for me, the thing that feels so distressing is what feels so self-evident, is that most of these "}
{"id": "700341774", "date": "2019-03-05", "guest": "Alex Kotlowitz", "title": "'An American Summer' Looks At How Gun Violence 'Gets In People's Bones'", "question_index": 33, "text": "Yeah. You say the gangs of the past, the big, organized gangs, don't exist so much anymore in Chicago, but there are all of these, like, small cliques. Like, little gangs from a small block or a small neighborhood. So there's still so many rival groups. And you still really have to belong to one of them to get by.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Yeah. Senator Mark Kirk, at one point - this is in the wake of, you may remember, when Hadiya Pendleton was shot and killed here. She had performed at Obama's inauguration. And it happened earl"}
{"id": "700341774", "date": "2019-03-05", "guest": "Alex Kotlowitz", "title": "'An American Summer' Looks At How Gun Violence 'Gets In People's Bones'", "question_index": 34, "text": "What is the impact of writing about all this violence and becoming close to a lot of people who've experienced it? What impact has that had on you, personally?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. I mean, just for your own personal safety, you don't have a choice."}
{"id": "700341774", "date": "2019-03-05", "guest": "Alex Kotlowitz", "title": "'An American Summer' Looks At How Gun Violence 'Gets In People's Bones'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Have you been in the situation where you've witnessed shootings?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, I'll tell you, when I was in the midst of writing this book - this book took considerably longer than I anticipated. But when I was in the middle of writing it, I went into, I think now "}
{"id": "700341774", "date": "2019-03-05", "guest": "Alex Kotlowitz", "title": "'An American Summer' Looks At How Gun Violence 'Gets In People's Bones'", "question_index": 36, "text": "You've been doing this work reporting on shootings and violence in Chicago neighborhoods. You've been reporting on that for 30 years. And you told us about this period where you just felt numb, unable to experience joy, unable to even smile. How did you get out of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've been in situations where I've been caught in crossfire and, you know, had to take cover. But I've never seen somebody shot."}
{"id": "700341774", "date": "2019-03-05", "guest": "Alex Kotlowitz", "title": "'An American Summer' Looks At How Gun Violence 'Gets In People's Bones'", "question_index": 37, "text": "So are you going to keep doing this work, Alex?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think - and this is going to sound maybe facile, but the - is I started to write. And it's part of the power of telling stories. I think it's why, in the end, people wanted or were willing to talk w"}
{"id": "700341774", "date": "2019-03-05", "guest": "Alex Kotlowitz", "title": "'An American Summer' Looks At How Gun Violence 'Gets In People's Bones'", "question_index": 38, "text": "But still focus on violence, or change subjects?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I think this is my last word on this subject. I've got - you know, as a writer, this is a really - I don't need to tell you this, but, I mean, these are really distressing times in this coun"}
{"id": "700341774", "date": "2019-03-05", "guest": "Alex Kotlowitz", "title": "'An American Summer' Looks At How Gun Violence 'Gets In People's Bones'", "question_index": 39, "text": "Well, whatever you write, I look forward to reading it. Thank you so much for talking with us. It's been great to talk with you again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I want to understand - I think what I want to do is I want to try to remind myself what I love about this country because, at the moment, I feel really disconnected from much of it."}
{"id": "700341774", "date": "2019-03-05", "guest": "Alex Kotlowitz", "title": "'An American Summer' Looks At How Gun Violence 'Gets In People's Bones'", "question_index": 40, "text": "Alex Kotlowitz is the author of the new book \"An American Summer: Love And Death In Chicago.\" After we take a short break, Ken Tucker will review a new album by country singer Maren Morris. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thanks, Terry, so much. I really enjoyed this."}
{"id": "700663706", "date": "2019-03-06", "guest": "Florian Henckel Von Donnersmarck", "title": "'Never Look Away' Asks: Why Make Art? Who Is It For?", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The new film \"Never Look Away\" is about an artist, a painter, who's first exposed to modern art as a child growing up in Nazi Germany. He's taken by his aunt to an exhibit of modern art that was curated by the Nazis to show what degenerate art looks like - the kind of art the Nazis are banning. By the time the boy is an art student, the Russian Communists have taken over East Germany, where the boy lives. And all art is expected to be propaganda, showing images of happy, working people. As a young man, he flees to West Germany and attends an art school known to be avant-garde. The artists there consider representational painting, the kind of painting he does, to be obsolete. Implicit in the movie are questions like, why make art? What is art for? And who is it for? The movie is inspired by the life of Gerhard Richter, one of the most famous German painters of his generation. My guest is the film's writer and director, Florian Henckel von Donnersmarck. His 2006 film, \"The Lives Of Others,\" won an Oscar for best foreign language film. That film was set in East Germany, about a playwright and an officer of the Stasi, the state secret police, who spies on the playwright. The new film \"Never Look Away\" was nominated for an Oscar. Florian Henckel von Donnersmarck, welcome to FRESH AIR. The film starts with an exhibit of degenerate art. It's Dresden, 1937. The Nazis have taken power in Germany, and this was an exhibit that actually happened in Nazi Germany when non-representational modern art was considered a threat, was considered subversive, was considered a sign of mental illness. Tell us what you know about this exhibit of degenerate art.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "700663706", "date": "2019-03-06", "guest": "Florian Henckel Von Donnersmarck", "title": "'Never Look Away' Asks: Why Make Art? Who Is It For?", "question_index": 1, "text": "Because you had to make all the art.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it was one of the most successful exhibits ever staged. Over 2 million people came to see the exhibit. And it was the German government - Goebbels - going into the individual museums - he an"}
{"id": "700663706", "date": "2019-03-06", "guest": "Florian Henckel Von Donnersmarck", "title": "'Never Look Away' Asks: Why Make Art? Who Is It For?", "question_index": 2, "text": "Why is it so hard for you to destroy - I mean, they are - they're fakes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We had to make the art. And actually, now we have to destroy this art. The crazy agreement that we have with the Collecting Society is that after we're done filming, so they don't suddenly appear some"}
{"id": "700663706", "date": "2019-03-06", "guest": "Florian Henckel Von Donnersmarck", "title": "'Never Look Away' Asks: Why Make Art? Who Is It For?", "question_index": 3, "text": "What really just strikes me as so odd about the Nazi degenerate art exhibit - I mean, in the - there were very famous artists in there. I think Picasso was in there - right? - and Kandinsky and Paul Klee. How crazy is it to warn people about how horrible this art is when it's, like, great art, and you're exposing people to it who never would've seen it otherwise?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, but they're as close to the real thing as we have. And that's also why they have to be destroyed - because in 50 years' time, someone could find them and think, oh, great. Here is Otto Dix's \"Wa"}
{"id": "700663706", "date": "2019-03-06", "guest": "Florian Henckel Von Donnersmarck", "title": "'Never Look Away' Asks: Why Make Art? Who Is It For?", "question_index": 4, "text": "But, you know, the thing that you have to say, too, about the degenerate art exhibition is that it showed that the Nazis thought art was really powerful and that that power had to be banned when it was in the hands of artists who they considered, you know, deranged or mentally ill or not politically correct, to put it in today's terms. And it's instilling a lot of power in art when a lot of people are so indifferent to art, they wouldn't have cared one way or another.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it's - I mean, it really is one of the crazy, crazy chapters in art history - I mean, in human history, all of everything having to do with what the Nazis did. When these - for example, the expres"}
{"id": "700663706", "date": "2019-03-06", "guest": "Florian Henckel Von Donnersmarck", "title": "'Never Look Away' Asks: Why Make Art? Who Is It For?", "question_index": 5, "text": "Well, you know, a contrast that you make and a similarity that you draw is, you know, that the Nazis are trying to ban art and control art and keep art to, like, realistic, uplifting paintings. And the World War II ends, and then the Russians move in, take over East Germany. And it's very similar. And so the main character, the artist in your movie - first, he sees the German - you know, the Nazi exhibit of decadent art. And then as he becomes an art student, the only thing you're allowed to paint is, like, uplifting things in service of, like, the people with capital letters. And instead of, for instance, like, a nude model for the art students to draw to learn anatomy, they're drawing a man and a woman. One of them's holding a sickle, and the other has a handful of wheat because they're showing, like, the people working in the fields, you know? And so, like, you're - you know, they're in opposition, the Nazis and the communists. They were at war together - you know, the Russians and the Germans. But their attitude toward art is pretty much the same.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I mean, I think that's one thing that you find. I mean, in all dictatorships that I've looked at, I find that they have exactly what you're talking about - this fundamental belief that art is some"}
{"id": "700663706", "date": "2019-03-06", "guest": "Florian Henckel Von Donnersmarck", "title": "'Never Look Away' Asks: Why Make Art? Who Is It For?", "question_index": 6, "text": "And - so there's a third view of art in your movie. You know, the character who is born in Nazi Germany comes of age in East Berlin, then flees to West Berlin. And he goes to an art academy there. He goes to an art academy in Dusseldorf, which is known for being avant-garde. And there he's told painting is passe, especially representational painting. And that's what he does - is representational painting. And the artists there are doing things like art with potatoes or art where you, like - you take an object, and you just nail nails into the whole outside of it so it's a sculpture of nails or taking a canvas and slashing it with paint kind of coming out of the slashed end. And some of this is based on real art. But do you consider that part of art - like, an opening up of art or another version of a shutting down of art because, again, it has a philosophy. And, you know, the philosophy is, in part, anything goes. But the philosophy is also, representational art is dead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's really interesting. I think as soon as you try and control art, art disappears. And, you know, the Nazis had this terrible philosophy of art. And then the communists came to power and said,"}
{"id": "700663706", "date": "2019-03-06", "guest": "Florian Henckel Von Donnersmarck", "title": "'Never Look Away' Asks: Why Make Art? Who Is It For?", "question_index": 7, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is director Florian Henckel von Donnersmarck. And his new film is called \"Never Look Away.\" He also made the 2006 movie \"The Lives Of Others,\" which won the Oscar for best foreign language film. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean, it's - after 1945, for a while in Germany, there was complete confusion over how art could even continue because everything was tainted. There was no way that artists could continue in t"}
{"id": "700663706", "date": "2019-03-06", "guest": "Florian Henckel Von Donnersmarck", "title": "'Never Look Away' Asks: Why Make Art? Who Is It For?", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is screenwriter and director Florian Henckel von Donnersmarck. His new film \"Never Look Away\" is set in Germany between 1937 and 1966. And it looks at the life of one artist who is inspired by the German artist Gerhard Richter. We were talking about Joseph Beuys as being this kind of, you know, radical figure in German art. You have an art professor in your movie in Dusseldorf, who's so modeled on Joseph Beuys that he's even dressed in the kind of khaki vest that you always see in Joseph Beuys photographs with the brimmed hat that he always wore. And he tells the story in the film that you told about being saved by nomadic Tatars after getting shot down in a plane during World War II and getting wrapped in felt and animal fat. My favorite shot in the movie is when he's delivering a lecture to his lecture class of art students. And on either side of him is an easel - an art easel. And on each easel there's a poster. On one side is the poster of the SPD party and the other side of the CDU party, the opposite - the opposing party. Apparently, there's an election coming up. And the professor asks, who will you vote for, the SPD or the CDU? Then he answers his own question by telling them, never vote for a party again. Vote for art. Only in art is freedom not an illusion. After the Nazi catastrophe, only art can give people back their freedom. If you aren't completely free, then nobody else will be. By making yourselves free, you are liberating the world. You are priests, revolutionaries, liberators. Make your burnt offerings. And he takes out a cigarette lighter and sets each of these political posters on fire. And so my favorite shot is of the professor with his hands on his hips, standing in the middle of these two posters that he set on fire. Flames are shooting out of the poster. And he's just standing there, staring at his class. And you hold the camera on him for an extended period while that happens. When he sets the posters on fire, did you worry about the fire catching onto anything else?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean, it's - after 1945, for a while in Germany, there was complete confusion over how art could even continue because everything was tainted. There was no way that artists could continue in t"}
{"id": "700663706", "date": "2019-03-06", "guest": "Florian Henckel Von Donnersmarck", "title": "'Never Look Away' Asks: Why Make Art? Who Is It For?", "question_index": 9, "text": "So you grew up in Germany. I mean, you're German. You live in Germany and LA now, if I have that right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was game for staying quite a while."}
{"id": "700663706", "date": "2019-03-06", "guest": "Florian Henckel Von Donnersmarck", "title": "'Never Look Away' Asks: Why Make Art? Who Is It For?", "question_index": 10, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, no. I live only in LA at the moment."}
{"id": "700663706", "date": "2019-03-06", "guest": "Florian Henckel Von Donnersmarck", "title": "'Never Look Away' Asks: Why Make Art? Who Is It For?", "question_index": 11, "text": "Right. OK. So you were born in 1973 and grew up in West Germany. So you're post-World War II. And your childhood is during the era of the Berlin Wall. And I know you had family in East Germany. So having become an artist yourself, how did the Nazi history of Germany and the communist present of East Germany affect the kind of art you were exposed to and the attitudes toward art that you were exposed to, 'cause attitudes don't die even when regimes change.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But for the past two years, I was living in Germany, making this movie."}
{"id": "700663706", "date": "2019-03-06", "guest": "Florian Henckel Von Donnersmarck", "title": "'Never Look Away' Asks: Why Make Art? Who Is It For?", "question_index": 12, "text": "So your movie \"Never Look Away\" is inspired by the life of the German artist Gerhard Richter, who developed a style of, like, photorealism in which the realism was - I don't know what word to use - a little modeled, a little distorted in the final part of the process. But he has objected to the film. Apparently, you interviewed him for many hours. And once the film came out, he did his best to distance it - distance himself from it, saying things like, you know, it's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean, it's - in Germany - growing up in Germany - and I grew up mainly in Berlin, so yes, it's, you know - the western part of Berlin, but it's right in the middle of the East. So to get anywh"}
{"id": "700663706", "date": "2019-03-06", "guest": "Florian Henckel Von Donnersmarck", "title": "'Never Look Away' Asks: Why Make Art? Who Is It For?", "question_index": 13, "text": "Oh, he hasn't seen it. Oh. Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he hasn't seen it. I mean, that's the thing."}
{"id": "700663706", "date": "2019-03-06", "guest": "Florian Henckel Von Donnersmarck", "title": "'Never Look Away' Asks: Why Make Art? Who Is It For?", "question_index": 14, "text": "My guest is Florian Henckel von Donnersmarck, writer and director of the new film \"Never Look Away.\" After we take a short break, we'll talk about how the Nazis forced sterilization program figures into the movie, and we'll hear about von Donnersmarck's family. He comes from a line of counts. His grandfather had a castle, and his uncle was a Cistercian monk. Von Donnersmarck wrote his first screenplay at the monastery. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, he hasn't seen it. He didn't like the trailer. That was what I showed him. He didn't like that because he felt it was, you know, kind of too loud or so. I mean, he - I really tried to get him to s"}
{"id": "700663706", "date": "2019-03-06", "guest": "Florian Henckel Von Donnersmarck", "title": "'Never Look Away' Asks: Why Make Art? Who Is It For?", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with screenwriter and director Florian Henckel von Donnersmarck. His first film, \"The Lives Of Others,\" won an Oscar for best foreign language film. His new film, \"Never Look Away,\" is set in Germany between 1937 and 1966. The main character is first exposed to modern art as a child growing up in Nazi Germany, where modern art is considered degenerate and is banned. By the time the boy is an art student, the Russian Communists have taken over East Germany, where the boy lives. And all art is expected to be propaganda. As a young man, he flees to West Germany and attends an art school known to be avant-garde. But the kind of representational painting he does is considered obsolete. So your movie \"Never Look Away\" is inspired by the life of the German artist Gerhard Richter. Richter's aunt was killed by the Nazis. And as the aunt is depicted in the film - and you could tell us if this was similar in real life - she suffered from schizophrenia as...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, he hasn't seen it. He didn't like the trailer. That was what I showed him. He didn't like that because he felt it was, you know, kind of too loud or so. I mean, he - I really tried to get him to s"}
{"id": "700663706", "date": "2019-03-06", "guest": "Florian Henckel Von Donnersmarck", "title": "'Never Look Away' Asks: Why Make Art? Who Is It For?", "question_index": 16, "text": "And at the time, the Nazis had a program in which if you were not considered fit for reproduction because of any kind of, you know, mental health issue. Whether they thought that you were, you know, mentally deficient, cognitively, or if you had, like, a mental illness like bipolar or schizophrenia, they would sterilize you so that you couldn't reproduce and ruin the German bloodline. And then often, they would kill you afterwards just to make, like, double sure that you didn't infect, you know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes - could've been schizophrenia or a form of bipolar disorder. I mean, all her medical records are still there, but it's not completely clear which of those two illnesses it was."}
{"id": "700663706", "date": "2019-03-06", "guest": "Florian Henckel Von Donnersmarck", "title": "'Never Look Away' Asks: Why Make Art? Who Is It For?", "question_index": 17, "text": "...Infect Germany. And so you have this happen to her. Did you do a lot of research into this forced sterilization program?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "700663706", "date": "2019-03-06", "guest": "Florian Henckel Von Donnersmarck", "title": "'Never Look Away' Asks: Why Make Art? Who Is It For?", "question_index": 18, "text": "Like the gas chamber.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Goodness, yeah. I mean, it was - that was really a very depressing chapter of this. And you know, it only takes up a small part of the film, but it was an important premise. I mean, I took the whole c"}
{"id": "700663706", "date": "2019-03-06", "guest": "Florian Henckel Von Donnersmarck", "title": "'Never Look Away' Asks: Why Make Art? Who Is It For?", "question_index": 19, "text": "So the gas chamber was one of the things that was started for people with mental illness.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Also - yes - and also discovered through this that they had to completely keep everything in the hands of the SS. And when this - there was a lot of protest against this murdering of people with th"}
{"id": "700663706", "date": "2019-03-06", "guest": "Florian Henckel Von Donnersmarck", "title": "'Never Look Away' Asks: Why Make Art? Who Is It For?", "question_index": 20, "text": "You grew up in Germany - in West Germany. Your family, though, was from a part of Germany that became East Germany. When and how did they get out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. They - that's where they developed all the techniques. Even the exact, you know, crematoria and all that - it's something which has only been - being researched now. But there's a government-fund"}
{"id": "700663706", "date": "2019-03-06", "guest": "Florian Henckel Von Donnersmarck", "title": "'Never Look Away' Asks: Why Make Art? Who Is It For?", "question_index": 21, "text": "You mentioned your grandfather had a castle...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So actually I encountered the chapter of how my father got out of - in a massive way while shooting this film because we shot part of it in Poland in an area that's - used to be Germany, is now Poland"}
{"id": "700663706", "date": "2019-03-06", "guest": "Florian Henckel Von Donnersmarck", "title": "'Never Look Away' Asks: Why Make Art? Who Is It For?", "question_index": 22, "text": "...Which the family had to flee. Your grandfather was a count.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "700663706", "date": "2019-03-06", "guest": "Florian Henckel Von Donnersmarck", "title": "'Never Look Away' Asks: Why Make Art? Who Is It For?", "question_index": 23, "text": "Does the castle still exist?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I don't know what privileges my great grandfather still had. But you know, he still had the castle, the lands, all the property. And so he was a very, very wealthy man and then from one day to the n"}
{"id": "700663706", "date": "2019-03-06", "guest": "Florian Henckel Von Donnersmarck", "title": "'Never Look Away' Asks: Why Make Art? Who Is It For?", "question_index": 24, "text": "What was it like for you - what is it like for you to come from a family that was connected to the monarchy and that many people saw as being, you know, an expression of capitalism? I mean, that doesn't strike me as what defines you", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "a chapter that they wanted to also forget."}
{"id": "700663706", "date": "2019-03-06", "guest": "Florian Henckel Von Donnersmarck", "title": "'Never Look Away' Asks: Why Make Art? Who Is It For?", "question_index": 25, "text": ", either capitalism or a monarchy. But...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "a chapter that they wanted to also forget."}
{"id": "700663706", "date": "2019-03-06", "guest": "Florian Henckel Von Donnersmarck", "title": "'Never Look Away' Asks: Why Make Art? Who Is It For?", "question_index": 26, "text": "But you're connected to it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no, no."}
{"id": "700663706", "date": "2019-03-06", "guest": "Florian Henckel Von Donnersmarck", "title": "'Never Look Away' Asks: Why Make Art? Who Is It For?", "question_index": 27, "text": "Since your parents had to flee with just, like, a satchel, who saved the portraits?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I mean, it - I think the one thing that it really does is it gives you a very live aspect, you know, or look into history. So, you know, an aristocratic family is no older than a non-aristocratic"}
{"id": "700663706", "date": "2019-03-06", "guest": "Florian Henckel Von Donnersmarck", "title": "'Never Look Away' Asks: Why Make Art? Who Is It For?", "question_index": 28, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Florian Henckel von Donnersmarck. He's a screenwriter and director who made the new film \"Never Look Away.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", at least there's that other great treasure."}
{"id": "700663706", "date": "2019-03-06", "guest": "Florian Henckel Von Donnersmarck", "title": "'Never Look Away' Asks: Why Make Art? Who Is It For?", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is screenwriter and director Florian Henckel von Donnersmarck, who made the new film \"Never Look Away,\" which is set in Germany from 1937 to 1966 and follows one artist whose life is inspired by the real artist - the real German artist Gerhard Richter. That film was nominated for an Oscar for best foreign language film. And his first film \"The Lives Of Others\" won the Oscar for best foreign language film. So, you know, you mentioned your grandfather was a count and had a castle. Is this the same grandfather who was specializing - was a doctor of philosophy and specializing in the work of the Catholic philosopher Thomas Aquinas?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Vocalizing)."}
{"id": "700663706", "date": "2019-03-06", "guest": "Florian Henckel Von Donnersmarck", "title": "'Never Look Away' Asks: Why Make Art? Who Is It For?", "question_index": 30, "text": "And so I read that when - that he was conscripted into the German army. And the first opportunity he had, he surrendered to the Americans. What's the story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes."}
{"id": "700663706", "date": "2019-03-06", "guest": "Florian Henckel Von Donnersmarck", "title": "'Never Look Away' Asks: Why Make Art? Who Is It For?", "question_index": 31, "text": "You wrote the first draft of your first film \"The Lives Of Others\" at a Cistercian monastery in the Vienna woods, where your uncle is the emeritus abbot. And my understanding is that this is an order that practices silence. And I imagine there's a lot of - it sounds like it's a pretty cloistered, you know, monastery. And I'm sure there's, like, some, you know, chanting or meditation involved.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". They had a very different way with German prisoners of war - and made their way through the lines until they found American troops and surrendered to them. That was a fairly common thing at the time"}
{"id": "700663706", "date": "2019-03-06", "guest": "Florian Henckel Von Donnersmarck", "title": "'Never Look Away' Asks: Why Make Art? Who Is It For?", "question_index": 32, "text": "So what was it like for you to write a film there? And were you - did you observe the silences and meditate and pray with the monks?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All the time."}
{"id": "700663706", "date": "2019-03-06", "guest": "Florian Henckel Von Donnersmarck", "title": "'Never Look Away' Asks: Why Make Art? Who Is It For?", "question_index": 33, "text": "Do you think that's better than a writers' colony?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, it's really a beautiful and magical place, this monastery that was founded in the 12th century and has existed in the exact same way right to the present day. And there has not been a "}
{"id": "700663706", "date": "2019-03-06", "guest": "Florian Henckel Von Donnersmarck", "title": "'Never Look Away' Asks: Why Make Art? Who Is It For?", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, it's really a beautiful and magical place, this monastery that was founded in the 12th century and has existed in the exact same way right to the present day. And there has not been a "}
{"id": "700663706", "date": "2019-03-06", "guest": "Florian Henckel Von Donnersmarck", "title": "'Never Look Away' Asks: Why Make Art? Who Is It For?", "question_index": 35, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've never tried a writers' colony. But I could imagine that there would be some kind of - I don't know - you know, let's say competition or dynamics or who is more important or, you know, is this per"}
{"id": "700663706", "date": "2019-03-06", "guest": "Florian Henckel Von Donnersmarck", "title": "'Never Look Away' Asks: Why Make Art? Who Is It For?", "question_index": 36, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Florian Henckel von Donnersmarck, the director of the new film \"Never Look Away.\" He also made the 2006 movie \"The Lives Of Others,\" which won the Oscar for best foreign language film. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're - you've been outdone from moment one anyway."}
{"id": "700663706", "date": "2019-03-06", "guest": "Florian Henckel Von Donnersmarck", "title": "'Never Look Away' Asks: Why Make Art? Who Is It For?", "question_index": 37, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Florian Henckel von Donnersmarck. His new film \"Never Look Away\" is set in Germany from 1937 to 1966 and follows one artist whose life is inspired by the real German artist Gerhard Richter. So I read that you're a sleepwalker. Does that interfere with your life...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're - you've been outdone from moment one anyway."}
{"id": "700663706", "date": "2019-03-06", "guest": "Florian Henckel Von Donnersmarck", "title": "'Never Look Away' Asks: Why Make Art? Who Is It For?", "question_index": 38, "text": "...Or your work?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "700663706", "date": "2019-03-06", "guest": "Florian Henckel Von Donnersmarck", "title": "'Never Look Away' Asks: Why Make Art? Who Is It For?", "question_index": 39, "text": "Do you remember sleepwalking episodes, or do they disappear?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", it does interfere with my life."}
{"id": "700663706", "date": "2019-03-06", "guest": "Florian Henckel Von Donnersmarck", "title": "'Never Look Away' Asks: Why Make Art? Who Is It For?", "question_index": 40, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, it's - I mean, sometimes it's really led to very embarrassing situations. Like, my wife was - headed the international efforts of a big organization called Creative Commons"}
{"id": "700663706", "date": "2019-03-06", "guest": "Florian Henckel Von Donnersmarck", "title": "'Never Look Away' Asks: Why Make Art? Who Is It For?", "question_index": 41, "text": "That sounds really horrible.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And had - you know, had nothing on me - no - obviously no identification - couldn't get back into the staircase - but as I'd gone up throughout the staircase because it was closed from that side. S"}
{"id": "700663706", "date": "2019-03-06", "guest": "Florian Henckel Von Donnersmarck", "title": "'Never Look Away' Asks: Why Make Art? Who Is It For?", "question_index": 42, "text": "Mike Birbiglia.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I don't know. I mean - so, you know, it leads to a lot of embarrassing situations. I mean, I never - even as a kid, I was never - you know, freedom we had - at a house that we had, there was thi"}
{"id": "700663706", "date": "2019-03-06", "guest": "Florian Henckel Von Donnersmarck", "title": "'Never Look Away' Asks: Why Make Art? Who Is It For?", "question_index": 43, "text": "All right. It's been so great to talk with you. And congratulations on your film.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly - called \"Sleepwalk With Me.\" And I went to that show because - and, you know, not a single one of the experiences that he describes there was - I mean, I'd been through every single one of th"}
{"id": "700663706", "date": "2019-03-06", "guest": "Florian Henckel Von Donnersmarck", "title": "'Never Look Away' Asks: Why Make Art? Who Is It For?", "question_index": 44, "text": "Florian Henckel von Donnersmarck wrote and directed the new film \"Never Look Away.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, my guest will be New Yorker staff writer Jane Mayer. Her new article is about the close relationship between Fox News and the Trump White House. One of her revelations is that Fox News killed a story right before the 2016 election about Trump's relationship with Stormy Daniels. The story was squashed to help Trump win the election. I hope you'll join us. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our associate producer for digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you very much, Terry. I really enjoyed our conversation. Thanks."}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 0, "text": "Well, tell the story the way it was told to you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, like, the rug-stealing scene and the keeping of the guns from the police - you know, that kind of stuff - that happened in the family."}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 1, "text": "Now, how did your mother feel about protecting this guy's guns?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my brother, who's older than me - this guy threw his guns over the airway - you know, the space between apartments. And my mother took them and held them for him. And then he came and got back h"}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 2, "text": "And so tell the dog story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, in those days - this is when I was a very little kid - that was thought of as nothing. You know, that was like - he was a neighbor, and he wanted you to do it. And you did it because you were afra"}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 3, "text": "Did she do anything to pay respect to the local organized crime figures who, in part, controlled the neighborhood?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This has happened in the movie. The landlord wanted my mother to get rid of the dog, and she didn't want to get rid of the dog. He was going to kick her out. And the local whatever he was - I never re"}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 4, "text": "Now, what were some of the most difficult parts of adapting the novel into the screenplay - into the first...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you have to remember that those figures are usually related by blood, you know, and were members of a family. So you gave them presents if you had a family member who was powerful. You know, you"}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 5, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a cinch."}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean, it was a cinch because it was the first time I'd ever written a screenplay, so I didn't know what I was doing. You know, it's - and it came out right. And the story I tell is that after "}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 7, "text": "I'm wondering with the dialogue - everything is so - not everything, but the characters who really have power are very euphemistic in their language. So they could be saying - they could be giving you the message that they're going to kill you unless you follow their orders, but they'll be saying it in the nicest way. And of course, killing would never be mentioned. Everything's kind of beneath - you know, between the lines, beneath the surface. What made you write the dialogue for these powerful, violent people in that coded way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know, what it's about because it was sort of off the top of my head. And then the first chapter - the book said, study \"Godfather I.\" It's the model of a screenplay. So I was stuck with the boo"}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it does come from the way the Sicilian Mafia operated. In fact, there was a funny story that an Englishman came to live in Sicily. And he got a kidnapping note because they like to collect the m"}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 9, "text": "One of the most famous lines that you come - that you came up with was about making an offer you can't refuse.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That - no, that was the way they operated. But the Sicilian Mafia wrote this Englishman such a flowery note, he thought they were paying him some sort of compliment. He didn't realize they wanted, lik"}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 10, "text": "Does that line have its roots in mob lore that you knew, or did it...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 11, "text": "You were invited to direct the movie by the studio - by Paramount...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Today we're celebrating the golden anniversary of the publication of \"The Godfather.\" We've already heard from the book's author, Mario Puzo. Now, let's hear from Francis Ford Coppo"}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 12, "text": "...Then you sat down and read the book. And you write, I read it eagerly but barely finished it. And you almost didn't make the movie because you didn't really like the book, in spite of the nice things you said about Mario Puzo. What didn't you like about the book?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And it..."}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 13, "text": "Did you ever tell Mario Puzo your thoughts about the novel?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had thought - from its title and the intriguing logo and the name Mario Puzo - that this was a kind of Italian intellectual writer, like a kind of, you know, Moravia - something - and it was g"}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 14, "text": "It did. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. He knew. And, you know, he had written a beautiful book called \"The Fortunate Pilgrim,\" which he felt was the best book he ever wrote, which also was about immigrants. But it was very respected "}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 15, "text": "Yeah. The Mario Puzo novel, \"The Godfather,\" is set in the '70s. The movie, Part 1, is set - you know, starts out in the mid-1940s, just after World War II. Why did you want to change the time that it was set in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And it did."}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 16, "text": "Oh, they wanted it set in the '70s...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't change the time. That's the way the novel is. The novel starts out exactly - I was very loyal to the novel after I had derived what the movie would be, and it was set in in the '40s. Michael,"}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 17, "text": "...OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, because..."}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 18, "text": "I see. OK. So that was..", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And you know why, of course. If you make a movie during the contemporary period that the movie's being made, you don't have to have special cars. You don't have to have special costumes. You don't hav"}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 19, "text": "...One of your first fights with the studio?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I..."}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 20, "text": "In each scene in your notebook, you have a list of pitfalls you might fall into. And perhaps the most common one that you're worried about is cliche. What were your - some of your biggest worries about turning the material into cliches?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very big fight because they had planned to use this script. I mean, the script had hippies in it because it was being a - going to be set in the '70s. And they wanted to shoot it in Kansas City. In fa"}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 21, "text": "You also wanted to avoid the dialogue sounding too \"Guys And Dolls\"-y. So what were your fears there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, having been raised in the family of Italian-Americans who - all of them were accomplished musicians - they weren't gangsters, certainly. But so much of the detail of life - what the bottle of an"}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 22, "text": "About the character Clemenza, who is like very heavy, he's not only a heavy, he weighs a lot. He's heavy", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, just that, you know, Italian-Americans were always portrayed in the movies, even on stage, a certain way - gangsters were, and I knew different because those were my family. My father was the fi"}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 23, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, just that, you know, Italian-Americans were always portrayed in the movies, even on stage, a certain way - gangsters were, and I knew different because those were my family. My father was the fi"}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 24, "text": "And he like - he's the one who's cooking the sauce in the movie. And you write about him in your notes that he has to be believable as the type that would be everybody's favorite uncle but also a killer. Did you have an uncle who resembled him in any way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 25, "text": "So casting Marlon Brando was just such a really brilliant stroke, and stroke of luck as you were able to get him, and I want to play what Mario Puzo told me in 1996, when I interviewed him, about casting Brando - about how Brando got cast in the movie. So can I play that for you, and then...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of our salute to Mario Puzo's \"The Godfather.\" His novel about a mafia family was published 50 years ago this weekend. Let's "}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 26, "text": "OK. So this is Mario Puzo, who wrote the novel \"The Godfather,\" speaking with me in 1996 about casting Marlon Brando.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course."}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 27, "text": "You did pick Brando?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm the guy that picked Brando."}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 28, "text": "What did you say in your letter to Marlon Brando when you were inviting him to play the part?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure. I wrote him a letter, and he called me up, and we had a chat. And then I tried to get Paramount to take him, and they refused. And then when the director came on the picture, I took the dire"}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 29, "text": "Danny Thomas? Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was something like - help. They're going to kill - they're going to kill me. They're going to cast - I think it was Danny - Danny Thomas is the guy."}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 30, "text": "Danny Thomas. Wow", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was something like, help. They're going to kill me. They're going to cast - I think it was Donny - Danny Thomas as the godfather."}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 31, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was something like, help. They're going to kill me. They're going to cast - I think it was Donny - Danny Thomas as the godfather."}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 32, "text": "OK, Francis Ford Coppola, you were the director. I suppose Puzo talked to you. And you made it happen. Can you pick up the story from there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, he was going to buy Paramount so he could play the role. At that time, Paramount wasn't really worth that much. And Danny Thomas was very rich off television. And I read an item he was goi"}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 33, "text": "But you won. How did you win?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's true that Mario had always liked the idea of Brando. But, you know, Mario was often Bay Shore. He was not really on the scene so much. Even a lot of my work with him was my sending him draf"}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 34, "text": "So did he do the movie for free?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". You know, so at least they were saying if I did three things - have a screen test, if I could get him to do the movie for nothing and if I could have him put up a million dollars, which is absurd - "}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 35, "text": "So you played this kind of little trick. And he did improv on - or whatever - on film for you. What did he bring to that audition that he didn't realize was an audition?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I called him up. And I said to Marlon, Marlon, you know, of course, this is an Italian-American, you know - wouldn't it be fun if we could, like, do a little experiment and kind of improv and see "}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 36, "text": "People were afraid in the studio that Brando would be hard to work with, and he would create problems. Did any of that happen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had always heard the rumor that Marlon Brando didn't like loud noises. And he always wore things in his ears. So I took a couple of my colleagues from San Francisco from this period of, you kn"}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 37, "text": "Was it Brando's idea to stuff his cheeks so that he'd look really jowly?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, not at all. He was a joy to work - you know, you don't talk a lot to Marlon. You sort of just give him - like, I would take a cat and put it in his hands. Or I would have some Italian props or, "}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 38, "text": "So the studio didn't want you to cast Al Pacino in the role of Michael Corleone...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, he said he wanted to look like a bulldog."}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 39, "text": "...And so how did you win that one?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 40, "text": "So I want to ask you about the final scene of \"The Godfather\" where Michael basically draws the line between what's business and what's family. Kay wants to know if it's true that Michael killed Carlo, his brother-in-law, his sister's husband. And Michael says, you know, I'm not going to talk to you about business. There's a line between family and business. Then he tells her, just this once, I'll tell you - and he lies to her and says, no, I didn't kill him.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2016 interview with Francis Ford Coppola. He directed and co-wrote all three \"Godfather\" films. The original novel \"The Godfather,\" written by Mario Puzo, "}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 41, "text": "Exactly. I mean, literally, like, he walks into another room where there's a business meeting about to take place in their home.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But that's been set up throughout the movie if you even - even then the scene we discussed before, when he goes to ask her to marry her, he says, just this one time I'll tell you something. When he te"}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 42, "text": "Right. And somebody else comes over - one of his men comes over and shuts the door, basically shuts the door on her. So the last shot we see is of his wife getting shut out. And it's a really interesting place to end the movie. I don't think that's how the novel ends.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's the meeting of him becoming the godfather. They're kissing his hand just as the door is closed."}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 43, "text": "Hoping to save his soul.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. The novel ends with a scene that, indeed, we did shoot, which is Kay going to church, lighting candles for him but..."}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 44, "text": "And we're kind of like her 'cause she loved him and she believed in him. And we like him a lot at the beginning, I mean, in the sense that like, he's not part of the killing. He's not connected to the business. He slowly becomes part of it. And we have to keep asking ourselves, who is he becoming, throughout the film, and how do we feel about him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, but because that thread of don't ask me about my family, don't ask me about my business, don't ask me, don't - I'll tell you this, but I'm not going to tell you anymore. He finally say"}
{"id": "701492922", "date": "2019-03-08", "guest": "Marlon Brando", "title": "A Look Back At 'The Godfather,' With Mario Puzo And Francis Ford Coppola", "question_index": 45, "text": "Francis Ford Coppola, thank you so much for talking with us about \"The Godfather.\" Thank you so much for making \"The Godfather\" and for insisting on the things that you wanted to make it as good as it is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I always, you know, when I make a movie, I always have to have a theme preferably in one word that I can get my - when I made \"The Conversation,\" the theme was privacy. When I made \"The Godfathe"}
{"id": "702513054", "date": "2019-03-12", "guest": "David Mccraw", "title": "'Times' Deputy Counsel On Fighting For Press Freedom In The Trump Era", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. You probably know my guest, the New York Times deputy general counsel David McCraw, from a letter he wrote that went viral. It was in response to a letter from Donald Trump's lawyer threatening to sue the Times for libel. McCraw will read that letter in a minute. As the Times' newsroom lawyer, McCraw has defended the Times against libel suits in the U.S. and from abroad. He's dealt with legal issues surrounding the publication of sexual misconduct allegations against Harvey Weinstein and the threat of a libel suit that followed. McCraw has filed dozens of lawsuits seeking information that was withheld by the government in spite of the Freedom of Information Act. He's worked for the release of journalists who were kidnapped by extremists or detained by hostile governments. During the Trump era, he says, the fight about press freedom is about the very nature of truth and whether we, as a nation, believe that a free press counts for something. McCraw has written a new memoir called \"Truth In Our Times: Inside The Fight For Press Freedom In The Age Of Alternative Facts.\" He's been at the Times since 2002, and before that was the deputy general counsel of the New York Daily News. David McCraw, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "702513054", "date": "2019-03-12", "guest": "David Mccraw", "title": "'Times' Deputy Counsel On Fighting For Press Freedom In The Trump Era", "question_index": 1, "text": "I want to start with your greatest hit", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having me."}
{"id": "702513054", "date": "2019-03-12", "guest": "David Mccraw", "title": "'Times' Deputy Counsel On Fighting For Press Freedom In The Trump Era", "question_index": 2, "text": ". This is the letter that you wrote in response to Trump's lawyer, Marc Kasowitz, threatening to sue The New York Times for libel. Just set up what had happened.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having me."}
{"id": "702513054", "date": "2019-03-12", "guest": "David Mccraw", "title": "'Times' Deputy Counsel On Fighting For Press Freedom In The Trump Era", "question_index": 3, "text": "And they threatened to sue for libel.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We had done a story about two women who claimed that they had been groped by Mr. Trump years earlier. I had read that story the day before we published it. We knew the campaign was going to be unhappy"}
{"id": "702513054", "date": "2019-03-12", "guest": "David Mccraw", "title": "'Times' Deputy Counsel On Fighting For Press Freedom In The Trump Era", "question_index": 4, "text": "OK, and this was during the campaign. So this is October of 2016. And in response to the letter asking for a full retraction and an apology and to - yeah - like, to just take it off the website, not publish it any further, here's an excerpt of the letter you wrote. Would you read it for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They asked for a retraction. They made the usual threats, yes."}
{"id": "702513054", "date": "2019-03-12", "guest": "David Mccraw", "title": "'Times' Deputy Counsel On Fighting For Press Freedom In The Trump Era", "question_index": 5, "text": "Is that the tone your legal letters typically take?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. (Reading) The essence of a libel claim, of course, is the protection of one's reputation. Mr. Trump has bragged about his nonconsensual sexual touching of women. He has bragged about intruding o"}
{"id": "702513054", "date": "2019-03-12", "guest": "David Mccraw", "title": "'Times' Deputy Counsel On Fighting For Press Freedom In The Trump Era", "question_index": 6, "text": "What, saying that we would welcome this opportunity to set him straight in court?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I tend to be a little more down the middle, a little more accommodating. But I felt that in the middle of the campaign, given that their letter had gone public, it was important to stand tall "}
{"id": "702513054", "date": "2019-03-12", "guest": "David Mccraw", "title": "'Times' Deputy Counsel On Fighting For Press Freedom In The Trump Era", "question_index": 7, "text": "So what was the legal outcome of the letter?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As a lawyer, I think welcoming is always dangerous. Inviting somebody to sue you is always a risky strategy. But in this case, I felt that we had to draw a line, and that's why I wrote the letter the "}
{"id": "702513054", "date": "2019-03-12", "guest": "David Mccraw", "title": "'Times' Deputy Counsel On Fighting For Press Freedom In The Trump Era", "question_index": 8, "text": "How often has Trump, first as a citizen - private citizen, and then as president, threatened to sue The New York Times?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The letter had no particular legal outcome. As I said in a column in the Times afterwards, it's not unusual. Writers of lawyer letters get used to writing letters, not having a response. That's how it"}
{"id": "702513054", "date": "2019-03-12", "guest": "David Mccraw", "title": "'Times' Deputy Counsel On Fighting For Press Freedom In The Trump Era", "question_index": 9, "text": "And when he became president, how did that change?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Over time, there was a pattern of receiving letters from Trump's lawyers. Almost all of them dealt with the same topic. That was any time we questioned his worth, his - how much money he had. And we g"}
{"id": "702513054", "date": "2019-03-12", "guest": "David Mccraw", "title": "'Times' Deputy Counsel On Fighting For Press Freedom In The Trump Era", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, as recently as February 20 of this year, the president tweeted, The New York Times reporting is false. They are a true enemy of the people. And Trump typically accuses the media in general of being the enemy of the people, but he singled out The New York Times in this tweet. So I'm wondering, is the president leaving himself open to lawsuits by someone who is attacked by a person motivated by the perception that the press is the enemy of the people? Or is the president leaving himself open to libel lawsuits because he's saying that The New York Times reports false news, that you're a liar, you know, that you're misleading the public?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In the time that he's president, he has really taken a different strategy, or expanded on a strategy he had used outside of lawyer letters before, and that is simply challenging the facts, and doing s"}
{"id": "702513054", "date": "2019-03-12", "guest": "David Mccraw", "title": "'Times' Deputy Counsel On Fighting For Press Freedom In The Trump Era", "question_index": 11, "text": "I'm going to stop you there. I'm not surprised to hear you say that. But explain why you're saying that because he has been doing everything to say that you, as an organization - that you're a liar. Basically, he's saying you're undermining our democracy, you're lying, you are the enemy of the people. Why isn't that libel? Why wouldn't you sue for that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the likelihood of suing the president for criticizing the press is negligible, maybe nonexistent. That is not where we plan to be heard. We continue to cover the president. We continue to cove"}
{"id": "702513054", "date": "2019-03-12", "guest": "David Mccraw", "title": "'Times' Deputy Counsel On Fighting For Press Freedom In The Trump Era", "question_index": 12, "text": "Your paper, The New York Times, was part of a Supreme Court case that led to the Sullivan decision - Sullivan v. New York Times - that made it safer for publications like The New York Times to publish things that were true but put heads of corporations or government officials in a negative light because these negative facts about them were being reported. So Clarence Thomas - Justice Thomas - has written recently in an opinion that he thinks the libel laws should be re-examined and that they're too generous, basically, to the publications and unfair to the people who are being reported on. And he said that there's really no basis in the Constitution for the current interpretation of the libel laws. So if you could just explain that a little bit and tell me if you're concerned about this possibility, because President Trump has said he wants to change the libel laws, and now you have a Supreme Court justice saying the same thing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, I'm going to answer that in a couple ways. One is the by-the-book lawyer answer, and that is the president has immunity for the things he says in office. If it's part of his official duties, he"}
{"id": "702513054", "date": "2019-03-12", "guest": "David Mccraw", "title": "'Times' Deputy Counsel On Fighting For Press Freedom In The Trump Era", "question_index": 13, "text": "Would you just explain what it said?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I may be accused of being too optimistic, but I see that glass as one-ninth full, and I'm not going to worry about it right at the moment. There are eight other justices who could've signed on to that"}
{"id": "702513054", "date": "2019-03-12", "guest": "David Mccraw", "title": "'Times' Deputy Counsel On Fighting For Press Freedom In The Trump Era", "question_index": 14, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is David McCraw. He's the deputy general counsel of The New York Times, and he has a new book called \"Truth In Our Times: Inside The Fight For Press Freedom In The Age Of Alternative Facts.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Times v. Sullivan set the standard that is applied to public officials when they sue for libel. It was later expanded to public figures. And what the decision said was public officials have to sh"}
{"id": "702513054", "date": "2019-03-12", "guest": "David Mccraw", "title": "'Times' Deputy Counsel On Fighting For Press Freedom In The Trump Era", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is David McCraw, the deputy general counsel of The New York Times. And his new book is a memoir called \"Truth In Our Times: Inside The Fight For Press Freedom In The Age Of Alternative Facts.\" So let's talk about the president and how he's tried to go after people who leak to the press. The president tweeted, the FBI is totally unable to stop the national security leakers that have permeated our government for a long time. They can't even find the leakers within the FBI itself. Classified information is being given to media that could have a devastating effect on U.S. FIND NOW. And that's in capital letters, FIND NOW. Jeff Sessions said - early in his tenure as attorney general, he said, today I have this message for our friends in the intelligence community. The Department of Justice is open for business, and I have this warning for would-be leakers - don't do it. But people have been leaking. I mean, the Trump administration has been famous for leaking. The New York Times published an op-ed by someone who went, I think, by the byline Anonymous, even though the people who needed to know at the Times knew who that was. And the headline of this anonymously published piece was \"I Am Part Of The Resistance Within The Trump Administration.\" (Reading) I work for the president, but like-minded colleagues and I have vowed to thwart parts of his agenda and his worst inclinations. So this was really a piece about the chaos inside the Trump administration and the concerns people within the administration had. Trump got very, very upset about this. How did you think through this piece before publishing it? And what did you think the repercussions of publishing this op-ed might be?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Times v. Sullivan set the standard that is applied to public officials when they sue for libel. It was later expanded to public figures. And what the decision said was public officials have to sh"}
{"id": "702513054", "date": "2019-03-12", "guest": "David Mccraw", "title": "'Times' Deputy Counsel On Fighting For Press Freedom In The Trump Era", "question_index": 16, "text": "So President Trump was very upset about this op-ed that was published under the byline anonymous. And he called publishing it an act of treason. Were there any threats against The New York Times for publishing this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I knew that the piece was going to be provocative. Our editors knew it was going to be provocative. We also thought it was really important for people to hear it - to hear a voice from inside. We were"}
{"id": "702513054", "date": "2019-03-12", "guest": "David Mccraw", "title": "'Times' Deputy Counsel On Fighting For Press Freedom In The Trump Era", "question_index": 17, "text": "Like what kind of threatening? - legal threatening, physical threatening.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There were not legal threats. And we never have heard officially from the Department of Justice. That doesn't mean that the Department of Justice didn't take steps. They don't necessarily advertise wh"}
{"id": "702513054", "date": "2019-03-12", "guest": "David Mccraw", "title": "'Times' Deputy Counsel On Fighting For Press Freedom In The Trump Era", "question_index": 18, "text": "My guest is David McCraw, deputy general counsel for The New York Times and author of the new memoir \"Truth In Our Times: Inside The Fight For Press Freedom In The Age Of Alternative Facts.\" We'll talk more after a break. And jazz critic Kevin Whitehead will review a new album by trumpeter Steph Richards. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They're physical threats. No, they're not legal threats. And sometimes, they're ambiguous. Sometimes, they're intentionally ambiguous. But it's part of the toxic culture that we live in at Times, wher"}
{"id": "702513054", "date": "2019-03-12", "guest": "David Mccraw", "title": "'Times' Deputy Counsel On Fighting For Press Freedom In The Trump Era", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with David McCraw, The New York Times' deputy general counsel. As the Times' newsroom lawyer, McCraw's work has included defending the Times against libel suits and threatened libel suits, including from Donald Trump and Harvey Weinstein. He's advised reporters on issues pertaining to the publication of leaked classified information and has filed dozens of lawsuits seeking information that was withheld by the government in spite of the Freedom of Information Act. He's worked for the release of journalists who were kidnapped by extremists or detained by hostile governments. His new memoir is called \"Truth In Our Times: Inside The Fight For Press Freedom In The Age Of Alternative Facts.\" A really complicated issue that you had to weigh in on was the publication of the first WikiLeaks dump. So this was - how many years ago was this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They're physical threats. No, they're not legal threats. And sometimes, they're ambiguous. Sometimes, they're intentionally ambiguous. But it's part of the toxic culture that we live in at Times, wher"}
{"id": "702513054", "date": "2019-03-12", "guest": "David Mccraw", "title": "'Times' Deputy Counsel On Fighting For Press Freedom In The Trump Era", "question_index": 20, "text": "OK. So you're called into this meeting. And I think it was right after you had oral surgery that had not gone well, so, like, you're still bleeding", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was in 2010."}
{"id": "702513054", "date": "2019-03-12", "guest": "David Mccraw", "title": "'Times' Deputy Counsel On Fighting For Press Freedom In The Trump Era", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was in 2010."}
{"id": "702513054", "date": "2019-03-12", "guest": "David Mccraw", "title": "'Times' Deputy Counsel On Fighting For Press Freedom In The Trump Era", "question_index": 22, "text": "And you're called into this meeting to find out there's this unprecedented dump of documents, including State Department documents. There are names in there of people who are sources, people who are diplomats both in the U.S. and other countries. And you had to help decide, is this legally OK to publish this? What vulnerabilities would The New York Times have if it published it? - and if it published it, what it should do to protect itself. So can you walk us through a little bit of your thought process in advising the Times how to handle publication of WikiLeaks?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is true."}
{"id": "702513054", "date": "2019-03-12", "guest": "David Mccraw", "title": "'Times' Deputy Counsel On Fighting For Press Freedom In The Trump Era", "question_index": 23, "text": "So, you know, in the case of Snowden, and then Assange with WikiLeaks, you had, like, individuals who had gotten access and then leaked the documents. And then later, in the case of North Korea hacking Sony and then giving private emails to reporters who then published some of them, and then the case of Russia hacking the email accounts of John Podesta, Hillary Clinton's campaign chair, and emails from the Democratic National Committee and then giving them to WikiLeaks, who released them, what was your attitude toward that kind of mass data dump when it came from foreign sources with malevolent intentions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We had been down this path many times before. We'd received classified information. Our editors had made the decision about whether to publish or not to publish. They had typically talked to the gover"}
{"id": "702513054", "date": "2019-03-12", "guest": "David Mccraw", "title": "'Times' Deputy Counsel On Fighting For Press Freedom In The Trump Era", "question_index": 24, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is David McCraw. He's the deputy general counsel of The New York Times, and his new memoir is called \"Truth In Our Times: Inside The Fight For Press Freedom In The Age Of Alternative Facts.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "a lot of things, including the information, the timing of the information, ultimately, about privacy in the United States."}
{"id": "702513054", "date": "2019-03-12", "guest": "David Mccraw", "title": "'Times' Deputy Counsel On Fighting For Press Freedom In The Trump Era", "question_index": 25, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is David McCraw, deputy general counsel of The New York Times and author of the new memoir \"Truth In Our Times: Inside The Fight For Press Freedom In The Age Of Alternative Facts.\" You've had to handle sexual harassment and sexual assault stories. You dealt with sexual misconduct with Bill O'Reilly and with the stories that got him fired from his job hosting his show at Fox News. And then right after that, Jodi Kantor gave you a heads up that she was working on a story about Harvey Weinstein and that he'd probably want to sue The New York Times after it was published. So one of the issues you had to deal with in being the lawyer who was dealing with the reporting on the Harvey Weinstein story was women had signed nondisclosure agreements. The women who had settled with him had signed nondisclosure agreements. So legally, they were not allowed to talk about the agreement or what they were accusing Harvey Weinstein of doing. So what was your advice to reporters about how to handle the nondisclosure agreements and what kind of liability the women would have, the sources would have, if they broke the NDAs - the nondisclosure agreements?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "a lot of things, including the information, the timing of the information, ultimately, about privacy in the United States."}
{"id": "702513054", "date": "2019-03-12", "guest": "David Mccraw", "title": "'Times' Deputy Counsel On Fighting For Press Freedom In The Trump Era", "question_index": 26, "text": "One of the most amazing parts of this story from a behind-the-scenes perspective is that you learn through a New Yorker story written by Ronan Farrow that Weinstein's team had hired Black Cube, which is a private investigation company whose employees include former Israeli intelligence agents. And tell us what you found out they were hired to do regarding The New York Times.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I prefer that they not do that. And so one of the things that I counsel our reporters to do when they face this particular situation is to be absolutely clear with the person who signed the nondisclos"}
{"id": "702513054", "date": "2019-03-12", "guest": "David Mccraw", "title": "'Times' Deputy Counsel On Fighting For Press Freedom In The Trump Era", "question_index": 27, "text": "It was literally directed at trying to stop you. I mean...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Once The New Yorker had done that very fine piece of reporting and made the Black Cube contract public, it confirmed what, I think, we had suspected, which was that our reporters were subject to being"}
{"id": "702513054", "date": "2019-03-12", "guest": "David Mccraw", "title": "'Times' Deputy Counsel On Fighting For Press Freedom In The Trump Era", "question_index": 28, "text": "Yeah. They got an extra $300,000...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Money on the line - they got a bonus if they did it."}
{"id": "702513054", "date": "2019-03-12", "guest": "David Mccraw", "title": "'Times' Deputy Counsel On Fighting For Press Freedom In The Trump Era", "question_index": 29, "text": "...If they succeeded in preventing The New York Times from publishing the - you know, the Weinstein story. And their fee was $200,000, so the bonus was going to be more than the fee was.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yup."}
{"id": "702513054", "date": "2019-03-12", "guest": "David Mccraw", "title": "'Times' Deputy Counsel On Fighting For Press Freedom In The Trump Era", "question_index": 30, "text": "What makes the story even more interesting and complicated and strange is that the firm that hired Black Cube to try to stop The New York Times from publishing the story - the law firm that hired them was the law firm in which David Boies is a partner. And that same firm was sometimes used by The New York Times as its law firm when the Times needed extra assistance. And in fact, you were wrapping up a suit that involved David Boies' law firm's assistance to The New York Times. So on the one hand, the firm is trying to prevent you from publishing a story. And at the same time, the firm is representing you in a different case. That's bizarre.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, they - the deal was was set up in such a way that its real purpose was not hidden. This was an attempt to try, in some way, to get The New York Times not to publish a story about Harvey Weinstein"}
{"id": "702513054", "date": "2019-03-12", "guest": "David Mccraw", "title": "'Times' Deputy Counsel On Fighting For Press Freedom In The Trump Era", "question_index": 31, "text": "So you wrote the firm a letter in which you said it is inexcusable and we will be pursuing appropriate remedies. Did you pursue appropriate remedies? And if so, what were they?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a very difficult time. We were using Boies Schiller in a very complicated libel suit. And they did outstanding work. As it turned out, just as the Black Cube disclosures were being made by New "}
{"id": "702513054", "date": "2019-03-12", "guest": "David Mccraw", "title": "'Times' Deputy Counsel On Fighting For Press Freedom In The Trump Era", "question_index": 32, "text": "You know, you mentioned receiving threatening communications directed mostly at reporters. And you write about reporters who've been doxed or threatened with being doxed. That's when your private information - where you live, your Social Security number, your phone number - are made public in social media and makes you very vulnerable to, you know, identity theft to, you know, personal attack. And I'm wondering if there's any vulnerability on the part of the people who make those threats or even vulnerability of the president. Like, if the president keeps calling the press the enemy of the people and if that leads to threats of violence against reporters or to the sending of, you know, bombs to CNN, does the president have any liability there? At any point, does it cross the line of shouting fire in a crowded theater and, you know, violating First Amendment because it's dangerous?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We didn't pursue it any further. We issued that public statement. We looked at it. We talked to our lawyers. In the fullness of time, it seemed that we had made our point, and we moved on."}
{"id": "702513054", "date": "2019-03-12", "guest": "David Mccraw", "title": "'Times' Deputy Counsel On Fighting For Press Freedom In The Trump Era", "question_index": 33, "text": "Well, David McCraw, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is. But I think that the same First Amendment that protects The New York Times protects much of the communication out there that we don't like. Hate speech that we're not particularly crazy about, "}
{"id": "702513054", "date": "2019-03-12", "guest": "David Mccraw", "title": "'Times' Deputy Counsel On Fighting For Press Freedom In The Trump Era", "question_index": 34, "text": "David McCraw is deputy general counsel for The New York Times and author of the new memoir \"Truth In Our Times: Inside The Fight For Press Freedom In The Age Of Alternative Facts.\" After we take a short break, jazz critic Kevin Whitehead will review the new album by trumpeter Steph Richards. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. You wouldn't believe what some emergency rooms charge, or maybe you would because you've gotten bills. For example, one hospital charged $76 for Bacitracin antibacterial ointment. One woman who fell and cut her ear and was given an ice pack but no other treatment was billed $5,751. My guest, Sarah Kliff, is a health policy journalist at vox.com who spent over a year investigating why ER bills are so high even with health insurance and why the charges vary so widely from one hospital to the next. Through crowdsourcing, she collected over a thousand ER bills from around the country. She interviewed many of the patients and the people behind the billing. She's reported her findings in a series of articles on Vox. She's also spent years reporting on the battle over health insurance policy. We'll get some updates on the state of Obamacare a little later in the interview. Sarah Kliff, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Why did you want to do an investigation into emergency room billing?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 1, "text": "OK. So let's get to that $629 for treatment that was basically a Band-Aid placed on a finger. You investigated that bill.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I wanted to do this because the emergency room is such a common place where Americans interact with the health care system. There are about 140 million ER visits each year. It's a place wher"}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 2, "text": "Why'd it cost so much?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 3, "text": "And does the facility fee vary from facility to facility?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So what cost so much was really the facility fee. So this is a charge I hadn't heard about before as a health care reporter. This is a charge that hospitals make for just keeping their doors open, kee"}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 4, "text": "So you're paying the facility fee to basically share in the cost of running the emergency room.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It does significantly. You know, I've seen some that are in the low hundreds. I've seen some that are in the high thousands. And it's impossible to know what facility fee you're going to be charged un"}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 5, "text": "But you don't know that when you're going to the emergency room.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that's how hospital executives would describe the fee."}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 6, "text": "So is this also why one bill had $60 for the treatment of ibuprofen and another $238 for the treatment of eyedrops?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You don't, no. And you don't know how much it'll be. You don't know how it's being split up between different patients. You don't know any of that."}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 7, "text": "I want to get back to the $60 ibuprofen. Is that - does that include the facility fee? Or is that just for the ibuprofen, and the facility fee is separate?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And, you know, this is something I see all the time reading emergency bills - I've read about 1,500 of them at this point - is that things you could buy in a drugstore often cost significantly m"}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 8, "text": "So how do they justify that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's just for the ibuprofen. The facility fee is totally separate."}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 9, "text": "Now, of course, trips to the emergency room aren't always as simple as getting a Band-Aid or ibuprofen or some eyedrops. I want you to describe the case of a young man who was hit by a pole on a city bus in San Francisco.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They say they have to stock, like, a wide array of medicine, so they have to have everything on hand from ibuprofen, from, you know, expensive rabies treatments - I've talked to a lot of people who've"}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 10, "text": "So did he have insurance?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So this patient, his name is Justin. He was a community college student in northern California, was walking down a sidewalk in downtown San Francisco one day. And there was a pole hanging off th"}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 11, "text": "So why doesn't Zuckerberg San Francisco General Hospital contract with private insurers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He did. He had insurance through his dad."}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 12, "text": "Isn't - I think legislation was proposed in California to change that. Did that pass?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So what they have told me when I've talked to some spokespeople there is that they are a safety net hospital, and that is, you know, definitely true. They generally serve a lower-income, often indigen"}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 13, "text": "So the position that Justin was in is that, like, he's unconscious. He's not asking to be taken anyplace.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's still pending in the California State Assembly. And the hospital has also promised to reform its billing practices, although we haven't seen what exactly their new plan is yet."}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 14, "text": "But he's unconscious. He's taken to the emergency room and ends up getting this $27,000 bill. I mean, that just seems so unfair, especially since he has insurance.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's still pending in the California State Assembly. And the hospital has also promised to reform its billing practices, although we haven't seen what exactly their new plan is yet."}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 15, "text": "Like, it's supposed to cover him for things like that", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 17, "text": "So apparently, the moral of the story is if you want to challenge your emergency room bill, you should get Sarah Kliff to write about you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, there's one other patient who kind of makes this point really well who was also seen at San Francisco General. Her name is Nelly. And she fell off a climbing wall and, somewhat amazing"}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, there's one other patient who kind of makes this point really well who was also seen at San Francisco General. Her name is Nelly. And she fell off a climbing wall and, somewhat amazing"}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 19, "text": "Yes. Agreed. Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Sarah Kliff. She's a senior policy correspondent at Vox, where she focuses on health policy. She also hosts the Vox podcast, \"The Impact,\" about how policy actually affects people. So we're going to take a short break, and then we'll talk more about emergency billing. And then later, we'll talk about what's left of Obamacare, and what the president and Congress and candidates are saying about health care, after this break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". That's what some people have said. But there's only one of me, and there's about 2,000 bills in our database. And, you know, we have had over $100,000 in bills reversed as a result of our series. Bu"}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Sarah Kliff. We're talking about emergency room billing and why it's so unpredictable and often so incredibly high. She's a senior policy correspondent at Vox, where she focuses on health policy. She also hosts the Vox podcast, \"The Impact,\" about how policy affects people. So we were talking about the hidden facility fee, which most people don't know exists, and is responsible for a large chunk of a lot of emergency room bills. There's also, like, a trauma unit fee. It's a similar hidden fee in hospitals that have trauma centers in their emergency rooms. So explain the trauma fee and how that kicks in.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". That's what some people have said. But there's only one of me, and there's about 2,000 bills in our database. And, you know, we have had over $100,000 in bills reversed as a result of our series. Bu"}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 21, "text": "So I'm going to have you compare two possibilities. You go to an emergency room, and the bill is very high. There's two people who have the same problem who go to the emergency room. One of them has a copay. One of them has a high deductible that they haven't paid off yet. How are they treated differently, in terms of what they're billed for the emergency room visit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. This is something I also had never heard of till I started reading a lot of emergency room bills, and this is the fee that trauma centers charge for essentially assembling a trauma team to meet "}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 22, "text": "Like what?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the person with the deductible will likely be billed significantly more. You know, if they're just, let's say, at the start of the year, they are going to essentially have to bear the costs of t"}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 23, "text": "That seems so unfair. How are you to know - if you're choosing a hospital that's in network, how are you to know whether the doctor treating you is in network or not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So one of the most common things we see is out-of-network doctors working at in-network emergency rooms. So you know, you have an emergency, you look up a hospital, you see their ER is in network, so "}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 24, "text": "So the bill that you'd get would be for the difference between what you pay when somebody is - when a doctor's in network and what you pay when they're not in network?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, you really - there isn't a great way to tell, to be honest. This is - you know, when I had to go to the emergency room over the summer, you know, this is something I worried about. You know,"}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 25, "text": "I have to say, I mean, that does seem unfair to the patient because they haven't been informed. They can't make a choice about it if they don't know. And, like, $8,000 is a lot of money.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, often it's just what that out-of-network doctor wants to charge. So a good example of this is a patient I wrote about in Texas named Scott (ph), who was attacked in downtown Austin, left on the "}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 26, "text": "What kind of protection could there be?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And I think, you know, even more, let's say he did say he was out of network. It kind of puts the patient in an unfair situation, too. You know, one of the things we talk about a lot in health p"}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 27, "text": "My guest is Sarah Kliff. She covers health policy for Vox. After a break, we'll talk more about why ER bills can have some unpleasant surprises, and she'll give us an update on Obamacare. And Maureen Corrigan will review two books about forgotten stories from Hollywood. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So we're actually seeing a lot of action on this in Congress. There's some pretty strong bipartisan support for tackling this specific issue and essentially holding the patient harmless. When there is"}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 28, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with journalist Sarah Kliff, who covers health policy and how it affects people for Vox. For the past year and a half, she's been writing about why emergency room visits can be so expensive and the pricing so secretive and mysterious, as well as inconsistent from one hospital to the next. She collected over 1,000 bills and tracked down stories behind the billing. She interviewed many of the patients and the people behind the billing to decipher why ER bills can have some surprise costs. Here's another surprise that often awaits people who go to emergency rooms - some insurance plans only cover true emergencies, and whether it is a true emergency is sometimes determined after the diagnosis is made. So how are you supposed to know before the diagnosis whether you're going to be categorized as a true emergency or not? Like, if you go to the hospital, you don't know if you have a broken bone or not.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So we're actually seeing a lot of action on this in Congress. There's some pretty strong bipartisan support for tackling this specific issue and essentially holding the patient harmless. When there is"}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 29, "text": "Somebody needs to X-ray it and tell you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 30, "text": "Hospital pricing and emergency room pricing seems to vary so much from hospital to hospital. Are there, like, national guidelines that help determine what a hospital or a hospital emergency room charges for services? I mean, who decides, and why is there such a variation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. The whole point you go to the emergency room is to help them figure out what the emergency is and what treatment you need. This is a policy that the insurance company Anthem has been pioneering"}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 31, "text": "So what advice do you have for people who actually need an emergency room and don't want to get hit with a shocking bill afterwards?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So hospital executives get to decide, and I think that is why there is such variation. There aren't really guidelines that they're following. You know, one thing you could do as a hospital executive -"}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 32, "text": "So your advice is, good luck.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, this is, you know, one of those questions - it just makes me a little frustrated that - 'cause this is the most common question I get - right? - is, how do I - how do we - how do I prevent a sur"}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 33, "text": "So what is the status of Obamacare now? You know, Republicans promised to repeal and replace. That didn't work out. So have Republicans given up on repeal and replace?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Short of that, I mean, good luck. You know, I'm actually in the middle of reporting a story right now about people who have successfully negotiated down their bills. And, you know, you can certainly -"}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 34, "text": "So now that there's no individual mandate, conservative attorney generals are challenging Obamacare - the Affordable Care Act - and saying it's no longer constitutional after Congress's repeal of the individual mandate. Could you explain that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For the time, it seems pretty clear that repeal and replace is dead on arrival, especially with Democrats taking control of the House this year. Those proposals aren't being talked about as much. They"}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 35, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, so this is a challenge that's come up through the courts in the past few months. Obamacare is constantly being challenged in court. It's been through multiple Supreme Court suits. This one - you"}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 36, "text": "Well, if it goes to the Supreme Court, it would be very interesting to see what Justice Roberts says since he voted for the ACA, saying that the individual mandate was a tax.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So essentially, it starts with the fact that the individual mandate - they weren't quite able to repeal it for boring technical reasons. But what they were able to do is change the fee for not having "}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 37, "text": "So correct me if I'm wrong here - the Department of Justice has sided with the conservative attorneys general who are challenging Obamacare, saying it's no longer constitutional, and I think that the Justice Department is also asking the judge to strike down the ACA's mandatory coverage of pre-existing conditions.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, and I think where some legal scholars would see it shaking out is that the - someone like John Roberts, he might agree, OK, yeah, the individual mandate is unconstitutional, but would "}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 38, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Sarah Kliff. She's senior policy correspondent at Vox, where she focuses on health policy. And she hosts the Vox podcast \"The Impact,\" about how policy actually affects people. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's right. So it's a kind of unusual situation. Usually, it's the Justice Department that is going to defend a federal law in court. But, you know, given the Trump administration's opposition"}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 39, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Sarah Kliff, senior policy correspondent at Vox, where she focuses on health policy. Do you think health insurance is shaping up to be a big issue in the 2020 campaign?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's right. So it's a kind of unusual situation. Usually, it's the Justice Department that is going to defend a federal law in court. But, you know, given the Trump administration's opposition"}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 40, "text": "What are some of the biggest falsehoods you've heard from politicians about health insurance costs or health insurance policy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do, and I think it's going to be a big issue both in the primary, where you're already seeing candidates get pressed on, should we still have private health insurance, and giving pretty different an"}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 41, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, one of the ones that's come up a lot is actually around the role of private health insurance. So I've - I don't know if it counts as a falsehood, but I think it's a bit of a misunderstanding"}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 42, "text": "Is there a country that you think has a good health care model that we could borrow?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And when you're unconscious, you're not really going to be great at price shopping. So I see that as, you know, a halfway solution that I often hear talked about here in Washington that would be great"}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 43, "text": "So it's not supplemental. It's instead of.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. I've been thinking about this a lot lately actually. So I've gotten very interested in the Australia health care system, which is a little far away. But I think they're a really interesting "}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 44, "text": "Is there any developed country around the world that has a system similar to ours with all these competing insurance companies and, you know, some government plans and, like, a thousand different bureaucracies that doctors have to deal with and that patients have to deal with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So it's very different from Canada. So in Canada, you can buy complementary insurance, you know, to cover the benefits the public plan doesn't but the government expressly outlaws supplemental "}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 45, "text": "Sarah Kliff, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely not. There's nothing like it. I mean, our system is so unique. I'd say the closest but it's not even close are a few countries that have national health care systems, but they do it through"}
{"id": "702975393", "date": "2019-03-13", "guest": "Sarah Kliff", "title": "Why An ER Visit Can Cost So Much \u2014 Even For Those With Health Insurance", "question_index": 46, "text": "Sarah Kliff covers health policy for Vox, where you'll find her series about emergency room bills. After we take a short break, Maureen Corrigan will review two books about forgotten stories from Hollywood. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you for having me."}
{"id": "703389568", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Prolific Rock 'N' Roll Drummer Hal Blaine", "question_index": 0, "text": "Hal Blain, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) The night we met, I knew I needed you so. And if I had the chance, I'd never let you go. So won't you say you love me? I'll make you so proud of me. We'll make them turn their heads every pl"}
{"id": "703389568", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Prolific Rock 'N' Roll Drummer Hal Blaine", "question_index": 1, "text": "Why don't we hear that part you're talking about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, that's a very difficult question to answer because Jack Nitzsche was a pretty prolific writer, but he wrote very, very thin in those days. You know, this was the beginnings of rock 'n' roll."}
{"id": "703389568", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Prolific Rock 'N' Roll Drummer Hal Blaine", "question_index": 2, "text": "Hal Blaine, what are some of the other records that had the most memorable beats that you played?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, that's a very difficult question to answer because Jack Nitzsche was a pretty prolific writer, but he wrote very, very thin in those days. You know, this was the beginnings of rock 'n' roll."}
{"id": "703389568", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Prolific Rock 'N' Roll Drummer Hal Blaine", "question_index": 3, "text": "In fact, I bet you've been to countless restaurants where people have been playing your rhythms on the table.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I remember doing a record with Tommy Roe. The record was called \"Dizzy.\" That was another one where I played as kind of a hook drum sound (singing) boom, dink (ph), go-diggy (ph), diggy (ph), di"}
{"id": "703389568", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Prolific Rock 'N' Roll Drummer Hal Blaine", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That has happened, I guess, in the past, you know. Sometimes, I've actually - you know, funny you mentioned that. I've actually turned around to someone and said, do me a favor, and let me play the dr"}
{"id": "703389568", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Prolific Rock 'N' Roll Drummer Hal Blaine", "question_index": 5, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...In a nice way."}
{"id": "703389568", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Prolific Rock 'N' Roll Drummer Hal Blaine", "question_index": 6, "text": "Now, you did a lot of records with Phil Spector including \"Be My Baby.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Or I would explain to them that they were trying to play their fingers along with whatever the music was playing coming out of the speakers in the restaurant. That actually has happened to me, which i"}
{"id": "703389568", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Prolific Rock 'N' Roll Drummer Hal Blaine", "question_index": 7, "text": "What are some of the things he had you do that other session heads didn't? What was different about working with Phil Spector?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "703389568", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Prolific Rock 'N' Roll Drummer Hal Blaine", "question_index": 8, "text": "Did Spector hum for you or clap for you the kind of things that he wanted, the sound that he wanted?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well first of all, every Phil Spector session was a party. Everyone on the session were the first-call people, the A gang. Everyone wanted to work with Phil Spector because they knew that some kind of"}
{"id": "703389568", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Prolific Rock 'N' Roll Drummer Hal Blaine", "question_index": 9, "text": "Clap a quarter-note triplet for us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "guess I used to go nuts sometimes on those drums because if you listen to some of the fade endings on just about all those records, we used to go into double times and all kinds of things that were un"}
{"id": "703389568", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Prolific Rock 'N' Roll Drummer Hal Blaine", "question_index": 10, "text": "You were the drummer on a lot of The Beach Boys' records.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2001 interview with longtime session drummer Hal Blaine. He died Monday at age 90."}
{"id": "703389568", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Prolific Rock 'N' Roll Drummer Hal Blaine", "question_index": 11, "text": "But I think it was Dennis who was actually...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just about all."}
{"id": "703389568", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Prolific Rock 'N' Roll Drummer Hal Blaine", "question_index": 12, "text": "...The drummer with the band. I imagine, at the time, nobody knew that he wasn't the drummer on the records.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "703389568", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Prolific Rock 'N' Roll Drummer Hal Blaine", "question_index": 13, "text": "So did Dennis feel bad that instead of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A lot of people did not know, in the early days, that Dennis did not play on those things. Sometimes, Dennis would come in and overdub with a tambourine or something. But Dennis was - happened to be a"}
{"id": "703389568", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Prolific Rock 'N' Roll Drummer Hal Blaine", "question_index": 14, "text": "...Him, it was you on the records?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No."}
{"id": "703389568", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Prolific Rock 'N' Roll Drummer Hal Blaine", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well, let me rephrase the question. Did you feel resentful then", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I tell you. I've told this story before. Dennis loved the fact that while I was in the studio in the afternoon making $35, $40 for the afternoon, Dennis that night was making 35- or 40,000 on stage. I"}
{"id": "703389568", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Prolific Rock 'N' Roll Drummer Hal Blaine", "question_index": 16, "text": "that he was making all this money on stage and you were making next to nothing in the studio?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I tell you. I've told this story before. Dennis loved the fact that while I was in the studio in the afternoon making $35, $40 for the afternoon, Dennis that night was making 35- or 40,000 on stage. I"}
{"id": "703389568", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Prolific Rock 'N' Roll Drummer Hal Blaine", "question_index": 17, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not at all because I knew what it was leading to because my phone started ringing off the hook with - from Phil Spector dates and Beach Boys dates."}
{"id": "703389568", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Prolific Rock 'N' Roll Drummer Hal Blaine", "question_index": 18, "text": "Is there a Beach Boys track that you particularly like your drumming on that we can play?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All of a sudden, I was getting calls for Elvis Presley and Johnny Rivers. And the 5th Dimension came along and the Mamas & the Papas. I mean, everybody came out of the woodwork."}
{"id": "703389568", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Prolific Rock 'N' Roll Drummer Hal Blaine", "question_index": 19, "text": "Why don't we hear that part of \"Good Vibrations?\" This is Hal Blaine.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I'd have to think about that a little bit. There are certain songs that make you cry, songs like \"God Only Knows\" - one of the beautiful songs. \"Good Vibrations,\" of course, was anothe"}
{"id": "703389568", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Prolific Rock 'N' Roll Drummer Hal Blaine", "question_index": 20, "text": "That was Hal Blaine on drums and percussion. Now, Hal Blaine, we've been talking about your rock 'n' roll sessions. You also worked with Sinatra. Did you have to get a different kind of beat when you were working with Sinatra? As a jazz singer, Sinatra was more behind the beat. Rock 'n' roll tends to be very on the beat.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I love the colorful clothes she wears and the way the sunlight plays upon her hair. I hear the sound of a gentle word on the wind that lifts her perfume through the air. I'm picking up good "}
{"id": "703389568", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Prolific Rock 'N' Roll Drummer Hal Blaine", "question_index": 21, "text": "What was a rehearsal like with Sinatra? And what was a recording session like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Strangers in the night exchanging glances, wondering in the night, what were the chances we'd be sharing love before the night was through? Something in your eyes..."}
{"id": "703389568", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Prolific Rock 'N' Roll Drummer Hal Blaine", "question_index": 22, "text": "Say somebody else required a second take because they made a mistake. Would he get annoyed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, generally, when you got a Sinatra call, it was a six-hour call. Now, the standard is a three-hour session. With Frank Sinatra, we would have a six-hour double session call - three hours, an hour"}
{"id": "703389568", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Prolific Rock 'N' Roll Drummer Hal Blaine", "question_index": 23, "text": "You've been on about 8,000 different songs that have been recorded. Do you actually remember what you were on? Or do you have to consult a list to figure out if you were on something or not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, we were not - we never said anything because, by the time we were working with Frank, they could do a lot of things electronically. If a guy had a glitch, you know, in the string section, th"}
{"id": "703738532", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "How 'Peasant Food' Helped Chef Lidia Bastianich Achieve Her 'American Dream'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Lidia Bastianich, welcome to FRESH AIR. So let's talk about your life. You spent the first few years of your life on the peninsula of Istria on the Adriatic Sea. It had been part of Italy but. After World War II, it became a part of Yugoslavia. It's now a part of Croatia. Your parents lived in the city of Pula, your grandmother and - your grandparents in a farming village, Busalar. Your grandparents had pigs and chickens and goats and a big garden. And a description that sticks in my mind that I want you to talk about is one in which one of the family pigs is being butchered, and then you describe how every part of the pig is used and turned into food or something useful. So can you just describe some of your memories from the live pig to the table,", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Lidia Bastianich has a devoted following from public TV cooking shows, her cookbooks and her restaurants. In her memoir, \"My American Dream,\" which just came out in paperback, she describes how she ca"}
{"id": "703738532", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "How 'Peasant Food' Helped Chef Lidia Bastianich Achieve Her 'American Dream'", "question_index": 1, "text": "like that process?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Lidia Bastianich has a devoted following from public TV cooking shows, her cookbooks and her restaurants. In her memoir, \"My American Dream,\" which just came out in paperback, she describes how she ca"}
{"id": "703738532", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "How 'Peasant Food' Helped Chef Lidia Bastianich Achieve Her 'American Dream'", "question_index": 2, "text": "Did you ever, like, bond with the pigs and feel like, oh, no, now we have to kill them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I can go way back. Every sort of February, we would go to - grandpa and grandma would go with a horse - actually donkey-drawn cart, and we would go to an animal fair. And there, my grandfather wo"}
{"id": "703738532", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "How 'Peasant Food' Helped Chef Lidia Bastianich Achieve Her 'American Dream'", "question_index": 3, "text": "So you grew up on the peninsula of Istria on the Adriatic Sea, as we said before. And after World War II, it switched from being part of Italy to being part of communist Yugoslavia. The language where you lived changed to Croatian from Italian, and the secret police were keeping an eye on your family because - go ahead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We did. As children, we did. We had the same - in the same sort of cycle - the chickens, the ducks, the rabbits, the goats. You know, I loved the bunny rabbits. The small rabbits, when they came, we p"}
{"id": "703738532", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "How 'Peasant Food' Helped Chef Lidia Bastianich Achieve Her 'American Dream'", "question_index": 4, "text": "So in 1958, you and your family immigrate to America with the help of Catholic Relief Services. And Catholic Relief Services emerges as a real hero of this book and your life story. They helped you get passage to America. They found you a hotel room to stay in when you first arrived. They found a house or an apartment for you to rent afterwards. They helped your parents find jobs. They gave you money, and they didn't want to be repaid. Even though your mother insisted on repaying them, they wouldn't accept it. But anyway, so you were how old when you came to America?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, absolutely. The whole thing changed. There was two parts of my existence and that was the security part in the house, whispering in Italian, sometimes talking about religion, and then the oppress"}
{"id": "703738532", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "How 'Peasant Food' Helped Chef Lidia Bastianich Achieve Her 'American Dream'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Didn't speak any English, but you learned it...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Twelve. I was 12 - 1958."}
{"id": "703738532", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "How 'Peasant Food' Helped Chef Lidia Bastianich Achieve Her 'American Dream'", "question_index": 6, "text": "...Within a year. And then you were in school being...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "None of us."}
{"id": "703738532", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "How 'Peasant Food' Helped Chef Lidia Bastianich Achieve Her 'American Dream'", "question_index": 7, "text": "...Like an outsider, a newcomer, without any facility with English. And it was, I imagine, pretty hard for you. And you still had to deal with food, but with food in a foreign country with very little money and no garden or animals or, you know, fruit trees or", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "703738532", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "How 'Peasant Food' Helped Chef Lidia Bastianich Achieve Her 'American Dream'", "question_index": 8, "text": "any of that to deal with. So how did the world of food change for you in America?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "703738532", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "How 'Peasant Food' Helped Chef Lidia Bastianich Achieve Her 'American Dream'", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it changed tremendously. You know, at 12 years old, you are - at least I recall being very - I was happy. I was so happy that finally we came to a place that where we are going to stay. We are g"}
{"id": "703738532", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "How 'Peasant Food' Helped Chef Lidia Bastianich Achieve Her 'American Dream'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Did you like yodels? 'Cause I'm going to confess here...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Bread cakes and all of that stuff amazed me, you know? And then..."}
{"id": "703738532", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "How 'Peasant Food' Helped Chef Lidia Bastianich Achieve Her 'American Dream'", "question_index": 11, "text": "My mother used to buy Yodels all the time. I thought they were a little - I don't know - bitter or something. They looked like they'd be really sweet, and I thought that they didn't taste quite right. I was never a big fan, but you love them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did."}
{"id": "703738532", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "How 'Peasant Food' Helped Chef Lidia Bastianich Achieve Her 'American Dream'", "question_index": 12, "text": "I love that I'm talking to you about Yodels, by the way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I love them..."}
{"id": "703738532", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "How 'Peasant Food' Helped Chef Lidia Bastianich Achieve Her 'American Dream'", "question_index": 13, "text": "Wrapped in tinfoil", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I love them because, you know, there you go. You went, you opened this package. And you get this kind of delicious texture and taste. You know, we didn't have that, you know, or any desserts or cake. "}
{"id": "703738532", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "How 'Peasant Food' Helped Chef Lidia Bastianich Achieve Her 'American Dream'", "question_index": 14, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I love them because, you know, there you go. You went, you opened this package. And you get this kind of delicious texture and taste. You know, we didn't have that, you know, or any desserts or cake. "}
{"id": "703738532", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "How 'Peasant Food' Helped Chef Lidia Bastianich Achieve Her 'American Dream'", "question_index": 15, "text": "...Like a tinfoil wrap?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes."}
{"id": "703738532", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "How 'Peasant Food' Helped Chef Lidia Bastianich Achieve Her 'American Dream'", "question_index": 16, "text": "I love in the book - you basically become the cook for your family for dinner because your mother's working. It's a long commute. And she doesn't get home early enough to prepare dinner, so you're preparing dinners. And then you start making, like, a Duncan Hines cake from a cake mix box. And, like, you're totally fascinated with the idea", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes."}
{"id": "703738532", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "How 'Peasant Food' Helped Chef Lidia Bastianich Achieve Her 'American Dream'", "question_index": 17, "text": "of this...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes."}
{"id": "703738532", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "How 'Peasant Food' Helped Chef Lidia Bastianich Achieve Her 'American Dream'", "question_index": 18, "text": "...Cake mix in a box.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "703738532", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "How 'Peasant Food' Helped Chef Lidia Bastianich Achieve Her 'American Dream'", "question_index": 19, "text": "You became engaged at age 18 to Felice Bastianich. You and your husband decided to open a restaurant in Queens, N.Y. Was that a tough choice for you? - because it's a big investment. It's a big responsibility. And you never know what's going to happen when you start your own business.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, our guest is chef Lidia Bastianich. She has several restaurants and is the Emmy-winning host of public television's \"Lidia's Kitchen.\" Her new memoir "}
{"id": "703738532", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "How 'Peasant Food' Helped Chef Lidia Bastianich Achieve Her 'American Dream'", "question_index": 20, "text": "Was the menu in your first restaurant an Italian menu as you understood Italian food to be from - having lived in Italy? Or was it an Italian-American as Americans understood", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. But, you know, my husband, he also was an immigrant from the same area. He had come before me as a man - a young man and was working in restaurants. He had worked up to being a maitre d', "}
{"id": "703738532", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "How 'Peasant Food' Helped Chef Lidia Bastianich Achieve Her 'American Dream'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Italian food to be?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. But, you know, my husband, he also was an immigrant from the same area. He had come before me as a man - a young man and was working in restaurants. He had worked up to being a maitre d', "}
{"id": "703738532", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "How 'Peasant Food' Helped Chef Lidia Bastianich Achieve Her 'American Dream'", "question_index": 22, "text": "So after having your restaurant in Queens, you expanded that restaurant into the store next door. And then you opened yet another restaurant and sold those to have a restaurant in Manhattan. Why did you want one in Manhattan? What did that signify to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes, it was Italian-American because, you know, we had worked in restaurants. Most of them were Italian-American food. So we weren't going to be different. You know, we were going to go along. We"}
{"id": "703738532", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "How 'Peasant Food' Helped Chef Lidia Bastianich Achieve Her 'American Dream'", "question_index": 23, "text": "It's funny because it sounds like some of the foods that you were cooking were foods that were cooked by, like, poor villagers, like your grandmother.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Manhattan was the epicenter of, you know, this big city. And Felice, my husband, had worked most of his time in Manhattan in elegant, Italian restaurants. And sort of, you know, his clientele - "}
{"id": "703738532", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "How 'Peasant Food' Helped Chef Lidia Bastianich Achieve Her 'American Dream'", "question_index": 24, "text": "But they were being served in an expensive, elegant restaurant.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "703738532", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "How 'Peasant Food' Helped Chef Lidia Bastianich Achieve Her 'American Dream'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Were there many women chefs when you became a chef?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, absolutely. But that's the reality. You know, you can place food. You can even manipulate it. And much of it is being done by chefs today. But I was kind of true to form because, you know, that m"}
{"id": "703738532", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "How 'Peasant Food' Helped Chef Lidia Bastianich Achieve Her 'American Dream'", "question_index": 26, "text": "What makes it tough?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There were not that many but there were - you know, Joyce Goldstein, Barbara Tropp, Mary Sue Milliken. All of those were women that were really kind of, you know, working in our industry and that were"}
{"id": "703738532", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "How 'Peasant Food' Helped Chef Lidia Bastianich Achieve Her 'American Dream'", "question_index": 27, "text": "It's kind of hilarious in the sense that - it was always, like, in the traditional gender days, like, a woman's job is in the kitchen cooking food. That's not a man's job. But once there was, like, pay and prestige behind cooking, that's a man's job", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that, you know, maybe it's an industry that has been dominated by men. Even though, you know, for me, maybe, I took it a little lighter because in Italy, women are in restaurant kitchens, and "}
{"id": "703738532", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "How 'Peasant Food' Helped Chef Lidia Bastianich Achieve Her 'American Dream'", "question_index": 28, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that, you know, maybe it's an industry that has been dominated by men. Even though, you know, for me, maybe, I took it a little lighter because in Italy, women are in restaurant kitchens, and "}
{"id": "703738532", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "How 'Peasant Food' Helped Chef Lidia Bastianich Achieve Her 'American Dream'", "question_index": 29, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They just took it over from us."}
{"id": "703738532", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "How 'Peasant Food' Helped Chef Lidia Bastianich Achieve Her 'American Dream'", "question_index": 30, "text": "So you have worked with Mario Batali. And he is one of the people who've been accused of sexual harassment. And I'm wondering if you've seen a lot of sexual harassment in kitchens over the years.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I always - I'm very, very much involved in women's organization and, you know, I founded also Women Chefs & Restaurateurs. I always say, you know, you just got to make yourself. Invest i"}
{"id": "703738532", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "How 'Peasant Food' Helped Chef Lidia Bastianich Achieve Her 'American Dream'", "question_index": 31, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is chef and TV host Lidia Bastianich. So what's it like for you to hear how immigrants are spoken of today with such, you know, distrust from our own president?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's a sad subject. And it is real. There's - maybe because of my matriarchal, if you will, position, I was always looked on with respect. But, you know, as I said, you know, I tell women in"}
{"id": "703738532", "date": "2019-03-15", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "How 'Peasant Food' Helped Chef Lidia Bastianich Achieve Her 'American Dream'", "question_index": 32, "text": "Well, Lidia Bastianich, it's really been a delight to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, my story certainly is non-political, but it's a human story. And I can't help it when I watch the television to see those children in camp. And yes, they run. They're joyful. But I kno"}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Heidi Schreck, wrote and stars in a new play whose title is both serious and tongue-in-cheek, reflecting how the play itself is both serious and funny. It's called \"What The Constitution Means To Me.\" It's about what the Constitution used to mean to her when she was 15, winning prize money in Constitution contests, and what it means to her now as a feminist, realizing the ways in which women, people of color and many immigrants were excluded from rights the Constitution guaranteed. When Schreck was 15, she competed in contests sponsored by the American Legion. Each contestant had to make a speech demonstrating their understanding of the Constitution and discuss its importance in his or her life. Schreck won enough money to put herself through college. In the show, she alternates between her 15-year-old self, who thought the Constitution was magical, and herself today, who sees the ways it's failed to protect many people. Schreck is a playwright and actress. She's also written episodes of the TV shows \"Billions,\" \"Nurse Jackie\" and \"I Love Dick.\" Heidi Schreck, welcome to FRESH AIR. I don't know if this is the right thing to say or not, but had we been good friends and you came to me and said, I'm going to do this, well, you know, show about the Constitution, I might have tried to talk you out of it. But I actually love the show. So I want you to describe the show in your words.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 1, "text": "When you first conceived of this as a short piece back in 2007, did you think that 12, 13 years later you'd be hearing the term constitutional crisis as much as you're hearing it now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Yes, a few friends did try to talk me out of it, actually. So my show, \"What The Constitution Means To Me,\" is a recreation of a contest I did as a teenage girl. I would travel the country givin"}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 2, "text": "So, you know, your show is, you know, about, like, the strength of the Constitution. It's also very much about the imperfections of the Constitution, the silences and the absences in the Constitution and the people it fails to protect. But when you were 15 and participating in these Constitution debates or performances, was the understanding you were given by the American Legion, that sponsored this competition, that the Constitution was pretty much perfect and it was your job to, like, describe the ways in which it was perfect?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did not. I started this piece at a completely different moment. I started writing it 10 years ago and I first performed it while Obama was president. And at the time, I felt like I was questioning t"}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 3, "text": "So one of the things that you talk about in the show is what the Constitution has to say about immigration, what it doesn't have to say about immigration and who becomes a citizen. Your great-great-grandmother, you say, was considered a good immigrant when she came in 1879. Your great-great-grandfather, actually, ordered her from a catalogue. She was a mail-order bride.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know if that was the directive given to me by the American Legion or not. I actually don't remember that. I believe that it was my understanding of the Constitution. I believed that about the "}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 4, "text": "And he was in the state of Washington where you were born and grew up. And you say Washington needed more women at the time. Why did they need more women?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 5, "text": "So what would happen? Like, women like your great-great-grandmother would go to the publisher of the catalogue and say, put me in it. I want to be eligible to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They needed more women in Washington because the male-to-female ratio at the time was 9 to 1. In fact, at some points around this time - this was, like, the late 19th century - it was even higher. I t"}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 6, "text": "...Come to America as a bride?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 7, "text": "Nice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, or their parents would do that. I think there were - in my research, I noticed that a lot of times it was parents who were poor and couldn't figure out, you know, what to do with their daughters"}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 8, "text": "So how much did your great-great-grandfather pay? Do you have any idea?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, or their parents would do that. I think there were - in my research, I noticed that a lot of times it was parents who were poor and couldn't figure out, you know, what to do with their daughters"}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 9, "text": "Would that be $75 in today's money or 19th-century money? Because $75 then would have been a lot of money.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. So this is a slight bit of poetic license because I don't actually - we don't have any records. I've done a ton of research, and so I'm just basing the $75 on the research that I did on what peopl"}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 10, "text": "So, obviously, you never met your great-great-grandmother, but...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I think it was a lot. Yes. I think - I mean, this is based on research that I did. But I think that, yeah, you would save a lot of money for this type of transaction."}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 11, "text": "...Do you have any idea passed on through family history what it was like for her to come to America as a mail-order bride?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 12, "text": "So you write that your great-great-grandparents, the women, your great-great-grandmothers, were considered, quote, \"good immigrants.\" Who were considered the bad immigrants at the time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". She said it was not at all what she expected."}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 13, "text": "Since President Trump has such strong anti-immigrant rhetoric and attitudes towards certain groups of people - like Mexicans, Muslims - I'm wondering what - you know, you've been studying this", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So my great-great-grandparents and great-grandparents, especially the women, were considered good immigrants because they just needed women to populate this area. They were also white, which at that, "}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 14, "text": "as an adult and as a teenager - what does the Constitution have to say about who becomes a citizen? And what is it silent about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So my great-great-grandparents and great-grandparents, especially the women, were considered good immigrants because they just needed women to populate this area. They were also white, which at that, "}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 15, "text": "I think a lot of people have no idea that people who aren't citizens would still have those rights.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Constitution doesn't have much to say about who becomes a citizen. So the 14th Amendment says that any person born on U.S. soil and subject to the jurisdiction thereof is a citizen of the United S"}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 16, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is actor and writer Heidi Schreck, and she has a new play that is about to open on Broadway. It's in previews now. It opens March 31 at the Helen Hayes Theater. It's called, \"What The Constitution Means To Me,\" and it's really meaningful. It's also really funny. So we'll talk more after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think so either. And, you know, there is also in the - I believe it was the '80s, I might be getting this wrong - the Supreme Court also upheld the right of children of undocumented immigrants"}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Heidi Schreck, and she has a new show called \"What The Constitution Means To Me,\" which is what the Constitution meant to her when she was 15 and won a lot of scholarship money at Constitution competitions", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think so either. And, you know, there is also in the - I believe it was the '80s, I might be getting this wrong - the Supreme Court also upheld the right of children of undocumented immigrants"}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 18, "text": "talking about the Constitution. But she also in the show talks about what the Constitution means to her now now that she sees what is not addressed in the Constitution and the people who are not addressed in the Constitution. So I want to move to another chapter of your play and of your life, and this has to do with when you got pregnant at the age of 21.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think so either. And, you know, there is also in the - I believe it was the '80s, I might be getting this wrong - the Supreme Court also upheld the right of children of undocumented immigrants"}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 19, "text": "You weren't - you weren't married. It was somebody in the same theater group that you were in. And this leads you to reflect on how the Constitution has been used to fully legalize birth control and to legalize abortion. Now, you grew up in an abortion-free zone in Washington. What - the state of Washington - what did that mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 20, "text": "When you got pregnant when you were 21 and weren't married, you say you couldn't go to Planned Parenthood because your mother's good friend worked there and that you didn't want your mother to know.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So eastern Washington when I was growing up was abortion-free zone. I believe that it still is. It just meant there was no clinic within, like, a three-hour radius that performed abortions. There was "}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 21, "text": "Even though your mother was a feminist, you were sure she'd find it very upsetting. And you couldn't go to the pharmacy because you might be recognized there - same problem, it would get back to your mother.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 22, "text": "But you did go to a clinic that advertised, like, free pregnancy testing. But then when you walked in, you realized it's one of those, like, anti-abortion groups?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 23, "text": "So how did you figure that out, like, right away? The people there - the women there were going to try to talk you out of an abortion as opposed to helping you get one.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 24, "text": "So you stayed and then found a place where you could - you stayed for the spiel and then found a place where you could get an abortion.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I knew as soon as I walked in the door because there was a huge poster that said, adoption is a beautiful choice. And then there were pictures of fetuses up all over the walls. So I knew as soon"}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 25, "text": "I should mention here that you say you were using birth control when you got pregnant.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I stayed for the spiel and, actually, for the test. And I remember. This is seared into my memory, actually, that, you know, she was - first of all, she was the only person I told, except for my"}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 26, "text": "My guest is Heidi Schreck. Her new play \"What The Constitution Means To Me\" opens on Broadway at the end of the month. We'll talk more after a break. And jazz critic Kevin Whitehead will talk about and play music by two pianists born a hundred years ago - Lennie Tristano and Herbie Nichols. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 27, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Heidi Schreck. She wrote and stars in the new play \"What The Constitution Means To Me,\" which opens on Broadway at the end of the month. It's about what the Constitution used to mean to her when she was 15, winning prize money in Constitution contests sponsored by the American Legion, and what the Constitution means to her now as a feminist, realizing the ways in which women, people of color and many immigrants were excluded from rights the Constitution guaranteed. In the play, she also describes personal and family traumas and makes connections to the Constitution's protections or lack of protections. When we left off, we were talking about getting an abortion when she was 21 and single. So this chapter of your life leads you to reflect in your show on how the Constitution was used to fully legalize contraception and then fully legalize abortion. And it's amazing to think about that. It was only in the '70s that birth control was fully legalized in all of the states for single women. An earlier decision, the Griswold v. Connecticut decision in 1965, legalized birth control in all states for married women. But it took years later until single women were included.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 28, "text": "How was the Constitution used to legalize birth control? - because there were places where it was not legal and wasn't necessarily a law that was followed. But it was certainly on the books.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes."}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 29, "text": "I didn't know this until seeing your play, but the majority decision in Griswold, which upheld the right of married couples to use contraception, was written by Justice William O. Douglass, who - I found this out from your play - at the time, was having an affair with a college student. So what does it say to you that, you know, the decision was written by all white men, and that the majority opinion writer was having an affair with...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So essentially, they sort of decided Roe v. Wade in part by basing it on a doctor's right - a doctor's right to privacy and a doctor's right to do what they believe is right. So this unfortunately h"}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 30, "text": "I don't know whether they were using contraception or not. But women were in the position, until recently, where decisions about their lives and bodies and power were being decided exclusively, on the Supreme Court level, by men.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So essentially, they sort of decided Roe v. Wade in part by basing it on a doctor's right - a doctor's right to privacy and a doctor's right to do what they believe is right. So this unfortunately h"}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 31, "text": "And it was legal in most states at the time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 32, "text": "Let's take a short break here.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was absolutely legal in most states. But the fact that they found it so difficult to figure out how to, like - how to affirm that it was constitutionally protected in spite of this, in spite of the"}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 33, "text": "And then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Heidi Schreck, and her play, \"What The Constitution Means To Me,\" opens on Broadway March 31. It's now in previews. We're going to take a short break, and then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 34, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Heidi Schreck, and her new show, \"What The Constitution Means To Me,\" is opening on Broadway March 31. It's now in previews. And there's - she plays, like, two selves in it - her 15-year-old self, when she was participating in a Constitution contest, sponsored by the American Legion, and she won enough prize money in that contest - because she knew so much about the Constitution - she won so much money she put herself through college. But she also reflects in the play about what the Constitution means to her now, now that she understands the absences and the people who are left out of the Constitution. So I want to get back to your family, your great-great grandmother came here basically as a mail-order bride. She came from Germany to the state of Washington. Your great grandmother and your grandmother were both married to men who abused them. Your grandmother, Bette, who you knew very well, her first husband died in an accident. He was hit by a falling tree. She remarried a man who physically abused her, who beat her up, who broke bones. And the stepfather, her second husband, also sexually abused your mother and your aunt. And you say it was your mother who finally called the police and tried to stop this. How old were you when your mother told you this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 35, "text": "How old was your mother when she called the police?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was 15 years old when my mother told me this. I also just want to say my aunt was very brave in terms of going to - she went to a teacher. And she also testified and was very brave about standing up"}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 36, "text": "So when your mother told the police and her stepfather found out, what was his reaction?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mother was 14-years-old. Yes."}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 37, "text": "So he actually put them in a car, took his gun...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "His reaction was to essentially threaten all the kids with a gun, to kidnap them and drive off, shouting that he was going to kill all of them."}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 38, "text": "...And drove off.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 39, "text": "And then your grandmother called the police, and they came.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 40, "text": "And he was prosecuted. He did 10 years.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 41, "text": "So how does this physical and sexual abuse in your family connect to your understanding of the Constitution?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was prosecuted. He - actually - OK, so this has been very interesting for me because I was told a version of the story, and then there's the version of the story I remembered. When I did an intervi"}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 42, "text": "You were already working on your play \"What The Constitution Means To Me\" during the Brett Kavanaugh hearings. What was your experience of watching Christine Blasey Ford testify to - you know, to the Senate Judiciary Committee?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I grew up believing in the idea of one bad man. There was a bad man in our family who hurt my grandma, hurt my aunts and uncles, deeply hurt my mom. She - you know, her whole life - my mom is an in"}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 43, "text": "So the show you were doing was the show you're doing now - the Constitution show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I remember sitting on the couch watching that, being - I think like many of us were, I felt like an emotional wreck. I found her testimony incredibly powerful. I believed her. I also found it triggeri"}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 44, "text": "That's interesting. She plays your debate partner at the end of the show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was this show - \"What The Constitution Means To Me,\" yeah. I will say I ended up in a room with Brett Kavanaugh, which was very strange. I was invited to dinner in Washington with my 17-year-old de"}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 45, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She's my debate partner, yeah."}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 46, "text": "Well, Heidi Schreck, good luck with the show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- she's one of the fiercest debaters I've ever competed against."}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 47, "text": "And thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much."}
{"id": "705077773", "date": "2019-03-20", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 48, "text": "Heidi Schreck wrote and stars in the play \"What The Constitution Means To Me.\" It opens on Broadway at the Helen Hayes Theater at the end of the month. After a break, jazz critic Kevin Whitehead will talk about two pianists born a hundred years ago, Lennie Tristano and Herbie Nichols. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having me, Terry."}
{"id": "705428857", "date": "2019-03-21", "guest": "Ed Caesar", "title": "Russia's Connection To Brexit Is 'Opaque And Complicated,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. With Brexit and the United Kingdom facing a chaotic and uncertain future, Donald Trump Jr. wrote an op-ed in the British paper The Telegraph this week in support of a speedy exit from the EU. He wrote, in a way, you could say that Brexit and my father's election are one and the same. Another person who's making connections between Trump and Brexit but for different reasons is Adam Schiff, the chair of the House Intelligence Committee. Schiff says he sees parallels between the apparent Russian efforts to influence the Brexit referendum and the Russian efforts to influence America's 2016 presidential election. He told that to my guest Ed Caesar, a British journalist who has a new article in The New Yorker about the British businessman Arron Banks, who funded the most extreme group that campaigned for leaving the European Union - the group known as Leave.EU. Banks is suspected of having received help from the Russians. Those ties are currently under investigation by the British equivalent of the FBI. Other subjects Ed Caesar has written about include Russian oligarchs, Deutsche Bank's laundering of Russian money and African civil wars. He's won awards from the Foreign Press Association for financial economic story of the year and journalist of the year. Ed Caesar, welcome to FRESH AIR. So let's talk about Arron Banks, the subject of your article. He's a businessman who owns insurance companies and diamond mines in Africa. He gave $13 million to the most extreme end of the Brexit campaign. That's the largest sum ever given in a British election by one person to one campaign. Before we get to where he got the money from and if it involved Russian money, let's talk about how the money was used. He gave it to Leave.EU. What is that? And how does that compare to Vote Leave?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "705428857", "date": "2019-03-21", "guest": "Ed Caesar", "title": "Russia's Connection To Brexit Is 'Opaque And Complicated,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 1, "text": "You know, Banks told you, we're going to be blunt, edgy and controversial, Donald Trump-style. So that's a...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Leave.EU was - they called themselves the provisional wing of the \"leave\" campaign, which is quite a colorful way of expressing it. What it means, really, is that they were the sort of unofficial \""}
{"id": "705428857", "date": "2019-03-21", "guest": "Ed Caesar", "title": "Russia's Connection To Brexit Is 'Opaque And Complicated,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 2, "text": "...Very conscious connection between, you know, Brexit and the Trump campaign. And both campaigns were very anti-immigrant. You describe some of the anti-immigrant social media that the Leave.EU campaign, funded by Arron Banks, was responsible for. And Arron Banks, in fact, oversaw the social media in that Leave.EU campaign. So would you describe some of that anti-immigrant - some of the most extreme anti-immigrant social media posts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "705428857", "date": "2019-03-21", "guest": "Ed Caesar", "title": "Russia's Connection To Brexit Is 'Opaque And Complicated,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 3, "text": "One of the posts that you describe in the piece is a post about the dangers of, quote, \"free movement within the EU.\" And what that means is immigration, like immigrants from other countries coming to England. And there's a photo in that post of a ticking time bomb. There was a post of George Soros, who is, you know, a very wealthy funder of liberal causes. And he's become like a demon in the Trump world and in the Brexit world. And so there was images of him pictured as the puppet master controlling Tony Blair, echoing a Nazi propaganda post from the 1940s in which a Jewish man is controlling the strings of Churchill and Stalin. And I found this very disturbing. After a pipe bomb was discovered in George Soros' home or, I think, maybe it was his mailbox, Banks, the subject of your article, tweeted, I suppose there are good Jews and bad Jews, then George Soros. I'm not even sure what that means. But it sure sounds anti-Semitic.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. I mean, it's - you know, it was everything from pointing out the, you know, the dismissal of free movement as an idea, which is this European idea that people can cross borders easily, to just o"}
{"id": "705428857", "date": "2019-03-21", "guest": "Ed Caesar", "title": "Russia's Connection To Brexit Is 'Opaque And Complicated,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It doesn't sound great, does it? It sounds..."}
{"id": "705428857", "date": "2019-03-21", "guest": "Ed Caesar", "title": "Russia's Connection To Brexit Is 'Opaque And Complicated,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 5, "text": "And then during the campaign, like, days before the vote, a British member of Parliament who supported remaining in the EU was shot and stabbed to death by somebody who shouted Britain first as he murdered her. And both sides of the Brexit campaign agreed to stop campaigning during, you know, a period of mourning. But Arron Banks' group, Leave.EU, the more radical part, they kept doing social media.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It sounds like someone who has as a vendetta against George Soros in particular but is also playing into this, I would guess, a worldwide outright, you know, worldview that there are these powerful fo"}
{"id": "705428857", "date": "2019-03-21", "guest": "Ed Caesar", "title": "Russia's Connection To Brexit Is 'Opaque And Complicated,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 6, "text": "So there's a lot of people who are skeptical that the $13 million that Arron Banks donated to Leave.EU actually came from money from his own businesses. Why are people skeptical that he would've been able to give that amount of money from his own profits?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what happened was that they had existing - pre-existing Facebook adverts. And they decided, according to emails that were recently unearthed, that they would continue to exploit those existing a"}
{"id": "705428857", "date": "2019-03-21", "guest": "Ed Caesar", "title": "Russia's Connection To Brexit Is 'Opaque And Complicated,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 7, "text": "So this is not exactly evidence that Arron Banks has ties to Russia, but his wife is Russian, and she has been suspected of having ties to Russian intelligence. Can you tell us about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there are two main reasons for this. First of all, he has said himself he's worth about a quarter of a billion pounds. And many financial journalists have questioned that figure. They say that h"}
{"id": "705428857", "date": "2019-03-21", "guest": "Ed Caesar", "title": "Russia's Connection To Brexit Is 'Opaque And Complicated,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 8, "text": "Katya Banks has a very provocative license plate. Would you describe the license plate, what it says?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this is a really interesting part of this story. What we were able to, you know, deduce from reporting was that Arron Banks' wife had been deported from Dubai before she came to the United Kingd"}
{"id": "705428857", "date": "2019-03-21", "guest": "Ed Caesar", "title": "Russia's Connection To Brexit Is 'Opaque And Complicated,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 9, "text": "And thus dismissive, like, oh, that's so hilarious. I'm just going to make a joke on it. You're just being ridiculous.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It says X MI5 SPY, which is, I think, a nod to her detractors. So it's, I mean, it's sort of hilarious. And it goes with the general strategy of Arron Banks and his movement, which is to play th"}
{"id": "705428857", "date": "2019-03-21", "guest": "Ed Caesar", "title": "Russia's Connection To Brexit Is 'Opaque And Complicated,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 10, "text": "Right. If it's part of a strategy, maybe you would.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. Exactly. And, you know, when I was in a very long interview with Arron Banks and his communications chief and sidekick, Andy Wigmore, you know, his PR guy said to me, listen, if you're really"}
{"id": "705428857", "date": "2019-03-21", "guest": "Ed Caesar", "title": "Russia's Connection To Brexit Is 'Opaque And Complicated,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 11, "text": "Yeah. So you describe Banks and his communications chief, Andrew Wigmore, as prone to boyishness. Tell us what you mean, and give us a sense of how they present themselves and how they seem to want to be seen.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "705428857", "date": "2019-03-21", "guest": "Ed Caesar", "title": "Russia's Connection To Brexit Is 'Opaque And Complicated,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 12, "text": "Yeah, like, we're, like, really interesting, crazy, nonconformists.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think they want to be seen as buccaneers and outsiders, you know, political pirates. I think that's how they like to be seen - people who shoot from the hip, who tell it like it is, who have no time"}
{"id": "705428857", "date": "2019-03-21", "guest": "Ed Caesar", "title": "Russia's Connection To Brexit Is 'Opaque And Complicated,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 13, "text": "When you describe Banks, he often has, like, a drink in his hand. Is that because you're writing about things that are partly social occasions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's it."}
{"id": "705428857", "date": "2019-03-21", "guest": "Ed Caesar", "title": "Russia's Connection To Brexit Is 'Opaque And Complicated,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 14, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is journalist Ed Caesar. And he has an article in the current issue of The New Yorker titled \"The Chaotic Triumph Of Arron Banks, The 'Bad Boy Of Brexit.'\" And it's about how Arron Banks funded the most extreme end of the Brexit campaign. And it's about the question of whether he did it with Russian involvement and Russian money. We're going to take a short break, and then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I think if you ask anyone who was involved with UKIP, there was often drink involved. You know, they were very social. You know, Nigel Farage often talks about a proper lunch. And a proper lunch g"}
{"id": "705428857", "date": "2019-03-21", "guest": "Ed Caesar", "title": "Russia's Connection To Brexit Is 'Opaque And Complicated,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Ed Caesar. He has a piece in the current issue of The New Yorker titled \"The Chaotic Triumph Of Arron Banks, The \"Bad Boy\" Of Brexit.\" And Banks is the person who was the biggest funder to the most extreme end of the Brexit campaign. And this piece investigates whether Banks had Russian backing and Russian money behind him while he was funding Brexit. So Arron Banks had several meetings with Russia's ambassador to England. What were those meetings about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I think if you ask anyone who was involved with UKIP, there was often drink involved. You know, they were very social. You know, Nigel Farage often talks about a proper lunch. And a proper lunch g"}
{"id": "705428857", "date": "2019-03-21", "guest": "Ed Caesar", "title": "Russia's Connection To Brexit Is 'Opaque And Complicated,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 16, "text": "And he turned down the deals though, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the first meeting was described as a six-hour boozy lunch. And it was a, you know, if you listened to Arron Banks, it was purely social. They got on famously. They drank some vodka that was appa"}
{"id": "705428857", "date": "2019-03-21", "guest": "Ed Caesar", "title": "Russia's Connection To Brexit Is 'Opaque And Complicated,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 17, "text": "But are there other ways he could have been used financially by the Russians? I mean, reading between the lines, it sounded like his - that Arron Banks' diamond mines in Africa could have been used for Russian money laundering.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He did."}
{"id": "705428857", "date": "2019-03-21", "guest": "Ed Caesar", "title": "Russia's Connection To Brexit Is 'Opaque And Complicated,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 18, "text": "So if he was being used for money laundering, like, to what purpose?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So that has, you know, puzzled some people. And if you look at the - his businesses in the round, it's so complicated - his business structure - and so opaque and in so many secretive locations that"}
{"id": "705428857", "date": "2019-03-21", "guest": "Ed Caesar", "title": "Russia's Connection To Brexit Is 'Opaque And Complicated,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 19, "text": "So in other words, there is the possibility that the $13 million that Arron Banks donated to the extreme end of the Brexit campaign was Russian money that was laundered through Arron Banks' diamond mines in Africa.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well if you wanted a boost his Leave.EU campaign, I suppose you could give him money to do so. You know, if the Russian state was interested in Brexit - everyone that you talk to who has some deep kno"}
{"id": "705428857", "date": "2019-03-21", "guest": "Ed Caesar", "title": "Russia's Connection To Brexit Is 'Opaque And Complicated,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 20, "text": "So I guess we're in the area of speculation. But the facts are still being gathered.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's one possibility. I mean, this is certainly something that the National Crime Agency of the United Kingdom, which is our equivalent of the FBI - that's something that they're looking at, that th"}
{"id": "705428857", "date": "2019-03-21", "guest": "Ed Caesar", "title": "Russia's Connection To Brexit Is 'Opaque And Complicated,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 21, "text": "My guest is Ed Caesar. His new article in The New Yorker is titled \"The Chaotic Triumph Of Arron Banks, The 'Bad Boy Of Brexit.'\" After we take a short break, we'll talk about why Russia would want the U.K. to leave the EU, and Ken Tucker will review a new album by Carsie Blanton who Ken says makes folk-based music with a sense of humor. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But there is an investigation by the - you know, the highest criminal investigator in the U.K. into this subject. So without wanting to, you know, foresee what the results of that will be, you know, w"}
{"id": "705428857", "date": "2019-03-21", "guest": "Ed Caesar", "title": "Russia's Connection To Brexit Is 'Opaque And Complicated,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with British journalist Ed Caesar. His new article in The New Yorker is about the British businessman Arron Banks who funded the most extreme end of the Brexit campaign, the campaign for Britain to leave the European Union. The British equivalent of the FBI is investigating Banks' ties to Russia and whether Russia helped him with the Brexit campaign. You write - (reading) one thing is clear, although Russia does not seem to have achieved anything like the success it did by stealing Hillary Clinton's emails, it certainly attempted to interfere in British affairs. What is in it for Russia to push the U.K. toward Brexit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But there is an investigation by the - you know, the highest criminal investigator in the U.K. into this subject. So without wanting to, you know, foresee what the results of that will be, you know, w"}
{"id": "705428857", "date": "2019-03-21", "guest": "Ed Caesar", "title": "Russia's Connection To Brexit Is 'Opaque And Complicated,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 23, "text": "Don Jr. wrote an op-ed in The Telegraph in England and said - in a way, you could say that Brexit and my father's election are one and the same. The people of both the U.K. and the U.S. voted to uproot the establishment for the sake of individual freedom and independence, only to see the establishment try to silence their voices and overturn their mandates. What do you think Brexit and the Trump campaign have in common?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think a number of things. Firstly, Russia was at odds with the U.K. over a number of foreign policy issues, including Crimea, at that point. Also, Russia was under sanctions, which they really"}
{"id": "705428857", "date": "2019-03-21", "guest": "Ed Caesar", "title": "Russia's Connection To Brexit Is 'Opaque And Complicated,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 24, "text": "In America, there are so many investigations going on right now into possible connections between the Trump campaign and Russia and between, you know, Trump, his administration and Russia. And there's quite an obsession now, in the U.S., about possible ties between Trump and Russia. And I'm wondering if, in England, now, there is a similar level of interest in that or if this is more, like, beneath the surface and if things are so unclear that it hasn't really gelled as a popular obsession?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that op-ed by Don Jr. was quite striking for a number of reasons. And there are parallels in abundance between the election of Donald Trump and what happened with Brexit. And that language, in f"}
{"id": "705428857", "date": "2019-03-21", "guest": "Ed Caesar", "title": "Russia's Connection To Brexit Is 'Opaque And Complicated,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 25, "text": "So, you know, we've talked a lot about, like, possible Russian involvement in the Brexit campaign. Britain - like, the U.K. is in chaos right now because of Brexit. There doesn't seem to be any good resolution right now. Let's talk about the damage that's already been done. Like, even if England tried to return to the status quo and stay in the EU, there's damage that's already been done that can't be undone. What is some of that damage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wouldn't say there is a similar level of obsession. And I would say that the appetite for investigating this - in terms of a judge-led inquiry or anything that would be, you know, politically instig"}
{"id": "705428857", "date": "2019-03-21", "guest": "Ed Caesar", "title": "Russia's Connection To Brexit Is 'Opaque And Complicated,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 26, "text": "You say there's some very legitimate reasons to leave the EU. What are some of the top reasons?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, let me preface this by saying that the wish to leave the EU was a legitimate political aim. It's just that its practical ramifications are so mind-blowing and difficult and, you know, Byzantine,"}
{"id": "705428857", "date": "2019-03-21", "guest": "Ed Caesar", "title": "Russia's Connection To Brexit Is 'Opaque And Complicated,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 27, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Ed Caesar. He has an article in the new issue of The New Yorker that's titled \"The Chaotic Triumph Of Arron Banks: The Bad Boy Of Brexit.\" We'll talk more about Brexit after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I - you know, I think it's important, in these debates, to think that, you know, there must be intellectual reasons on both sides of the argument. So if you were a leaver, you thought that the E"}
{"id": "705428857", "date": "2019-03-21", "guest": "Ed Caesar", "title": "Russia's Connection To Brexit Is 'Opaque And Complicated,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 28, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is journalist Ed Caesar. He has an article in the new issue of The New Yorker titled \"The Chaotic Triumph Of Arron Banks: The Bad Boy Of Brexit.\" It's about how banks funded the most extreme end of the Brexit campaign and the question of whether he did it with Russian help. What is some of the damage that's already been done in the U.K. as a result of this inability - as a result of the paralysis in government, and also as a result of the fears of what will happen if the U.K. does leave the EU?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I - you know, I think it's important, in these debates, to think that, you know, there must be intellectual reasons on both sides of the argument. So if you were a leaver, you thought that the E"}
{"id": "705428857", "date": "2019-03-21", "guest": "Ed Caesar", "title": "Russia's Connection To Brexit Is 'Opaque And Complicated,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 29, "text": "Why? Why would there be shortages of food and medicine?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we've seen some big headlines about carmakers, you know, moving abroad from the U.K., businesses thinking about headquartering overseas because they want to be, you know, within Europe, not with"}
{"id": "705428857", "date": "2019-03-21", "guest": "Ed Caesar", "title": "Russia's Connection To Brexit Is 'Opaque And Complicated,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 30, "text": "And not - going without medicine will be even more problematic.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because in the case of a no-deal Brexit, you know, we wouldn't be able to trade in the same way, at least for - in the short-term. So, you know, the contingency plans that are being drawn up by No. 10"}
{"id": "705428857", "date": "2019-03-21", "guest": "Ed Caesar", "title": "Russia's Connection To Brexit Is 'Opaque And Complicated,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 31, "text": "What's going on on a day-to-day level in England now as people are faced with great uncertainty about what the future will be and what they'll have and not have in the future? I mean, are people, like, stockpiling food and medicine now. What - like, what are they doing to prepare for they don't know what?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's horrible to think about, and this is all entirely self-inflicted."}
{"id": "705428857", "date": "2019-03-21", "guest": "Ed Caesar", "title": "Russia's Connection To Brexit Is 'Opaque And Complicated,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 32, "text": "During the Brexit campaign, did either side pay much attention in their public campaigning to what the consequences would be if the U.K. actually left the EU and how hard it would be to untangle itself from the EU?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I can talk very definitively about my household, where my wife has a pretty debilitating addiction to Dijon mustard, French mustard. And we have at least three big jars in the cupboards. I don't"}
{"id": "705428857", "date": "2019-03-21", "guest": "Ed Caesar", "title": "Russia's Connection To Brexit Is 'Opaque And Complicated,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 33, "text": "Ed Caesar, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, absolutely. So the \"remain\" side had what the \"leave\" side called Project Fear. So Project Fear was this derisory term that the \"leave\" side had for what now looked like fairly accurate projectio"}
{"id": "705428857", "date": "2019-03-21", "guest": "Ed Caesar", "title": "Russia's Connection To Brexit Is 'Opaque And Complicated,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 34, "text": "Ed Caesar's article in The New Yorker is titled \"The Chaotic Triumph Of Arron Banks, The 'Bad Boy Of Brexit.'\" After we take a short break, Ken Tucker will review the new album by Carsie Blanton, whose music he describes as delightfully surprising. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me on."}
{"id": "705809436", "date": "2019-03-22", "guest": "W S Merwin", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet W. S. Merwin", "question_index": 0, "text": "I love that last line, I have only what I remember, that you have this photograph of your mother. I assume it's your mother.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) Almost to your birthday, and as I am getting dressed alone in the house, a button comes off. And once I find a needle with an eye big enough for me to try to thread it, and at last have sewe"}
{"id": "705809436", "date": "2019-03-22", "guest": "W S Merwin", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet W. S. Merwin", "question_index": 1, "text": "And the photograph is marred, and you only have what you remember. You know, memory is always such an issue for me. You know, do you struggle to chronicle your life, to keep the photographs, to document it, to keep journals, to hold onto all the memories? Or do you accept that you have only what you remember?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "705809436", "date": "2019-03-22", "guest": "W S Merwin", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet W. S. Merwin", "question_index": 2, "text": "As you get older, do you spend more time thinking about your early memories, your childhood, your formative years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think we do both. I think we always do both. I think memory is essential to what we are. If we - we wouldn't be able to talk to each other without memory. And what we think of as the present really "}
{"id": "705809436", "date": "2019-03-22", "guest": "W S Merwin", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet W. S. Merwin", "question_index": 3, "text": "My guest is poet W.S. Merwin, and he has a new collection of poems called \"The Shadow of Sirius.\" Several of the poems in your book are about your parents. This is one of them. It's called \"A Single Autumn.\" Would you introduce it for us and read it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do. You know, I didn't like my years in Scranton, Pa., particularly. They were very important. They were from the age of 9 to the age of about 14. And then I find that the props, the scenes, the lig"}
{"id": "705809436", "date": "2019-03-22", "guest": "W S Merwin", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet W. S. Merwin", "question_index": 4, "text": "God, I love that last line", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. This is something I think I've thought about quite often, and why - my parents died very close together. I thought they weren't very close together. But actually, they - one of their great gifts "}
{"id": "705809436", "date": "2019-03-22", "guest": "W S Merwin", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet W. S. Merwin", "question_index": 5, "text": "- I could do anything. And I think - what were some of the things that you wouldn't have done when your parents were alive, living in that house?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. This is something I think I've thought about quite often, and why - my parents died very close together. I thought they weren't very close together. But actually, they - one of their great gifts "}
{"id": "705809436", "date": "2019-03-22", "guest": "W S Merwin", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet W. S. Merwin", "question_index": 6, "text": "When you were going through your parent's possessions and figuring out what to give away, what you keep, what to throw away, what did you decide to keep?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "705809436", "date": "2019-03-22", "guest": "W S Merwin", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet W. S. Merwin", "question_index": 7, "text": "Well, what made them terrible? Why do you describe them as terrible?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- but I felt..."}
{"id": "705809436", "date": "2019-03-22", "guest": "W S Merwin", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet W. S. Merwin", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, you never - you never even have periods in your poems", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, he never finished his sentence, you know, and they were..."}
{"id": "705809436", "date": "2019-03-22", "guest": "W S Merwin", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet W. S. Merwin", "question_index": 9, "text": ". That's really funny.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, he never finished his sentence, you know, and they were..."}
{"id": "705809436", "date": "2019-03-22", "guest": "W S Merwin", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet W. S. Merwin", "question_index": 10, "text": "Did you want to keep him for yourself, or did you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. No, but these were all dashes, like Emily Dickinson. And they were - there was - they were very unoriginal. They - you know, and he just obviously didn't want them kept."}
{"id": "705809436", "date": "2019-03-22", "guest": "W S Merwin", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet W. S. Merwin", "question_index": 11, "text": "...Obey the wishes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I kept..."}
{"id": "705809436", "date": "2019-03-22", "guest": "W S Merwin", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet W. S. Merwin", "question_index": 12, "text": "When you say used, you mean used in poems.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did want to keep some. And I wanted to keep various correspondences that my mother had there that were marked Burn This. So I burned them. And you know, it's at that moment, you are very eager to do"}
{"id": "705809436", "date": "2019-03-22", "guest": "W S Merwin", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet W. S. Merwin", "question_index": 13, "text": "That sounds wonderful. So you still have that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "705809436", "date": "2019-03-22", "guest": "W S Merwin", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet W. S. Merwin", "question_index": 14, "text": "Your father was a minister. What were you taught about God? What did you believe about God when you were young?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let's return to Terry's 2008 interview with Pulitzer Prize-winning poet W.S. Merwin. He died last Friday at age 91."}
{"id": "705809436", "date": "2019-03-22", "guest": "W S Merwin", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet W. S. Merwin", "question_index": 15, "text": "Did he know that you became a poet? And what did - did he think poetry was frivolous?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I had to learn the catechism and - but it was mostly proscriptive and - things you couldn't do. We - there was no card-playing in the house and no dancing and not much of anything that was fun. An"}
{"id": "705809436", "date": "2019-03-22", "guest": "W S Merwin", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet W. S. Merwin", "question_index": 16, "text": "You were?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, he didn't. He thought it was fun. And when I felt that I was, in effect, a pacifist at the end of World War II and I was put in the psycho ward in the Chelsea Naval Hospital..."}
{"id": "705809436", "date": "2019-03-22", "guest": "W S Merwin", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet W. S. Merwin", "question_index": 17, "text": "You were put in the mental ward for being a pacifist.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was, yeah."}
{"id": "705809436", "date": "2019-03-22", "guest": "W S Merwin", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet W. S. Merwin", "question_index": 18, "text": "What year was this that you were put in the psycho ward?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "705809436", "date": "2019-03-22", "guest": "W S Merwin", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet W. S. Merwin", "question_index": 19, "text": "So what was your treatment?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, when was it? '46, I guess."}
{"id": "705809436", "date": "2019-03-22", "guest": "W S Merwin", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet W. S. Merwin", "question_index": 20, "text": "Did being locked up in a psychiatric ward make you question your own sanity? Were you able to be confident the whole time that you were locked up under false pretenses and you were perfectly sane - you were just dissenting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it was - they tried to scare me, I guess, but it was - otherwise, it was basically rather humane. I was locked up. I was in a big ward, and there were some people who had real trouble - I mean, ha"}
{"id": "705809436", "date": "2019-03-22", "guest": "W S Merwin", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet W. S. Merwin", "question_index": 21, "text": "I don't know how you feel about talking about this, but how do you feel about getting older? You're in your early 80s now and dealing with the dimming of some of the senses in a body that isn't as strong as it was. I don't know if you have a lot of pain or - you know, physical elements associated with that, but you have to accept a certain amount of physical diminishment as you age. How are you at accepting that or dealing with it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I realized that it was because of dissenting. But I didn't question - I mean, the more I thought about - I thought, I can't allow myself to be trained to kill on orders, to take life on orders. I "}
{"id": "705809436", "date": "2019-03-22", "guest": "W S Merwin", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet W. S. Merwin", "question_index": 22, "text": "So how long ago was she your dog?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "705809436", "date": "2019-03-22", "guest": "W S Merwin", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet W. S. Merwin", "question_index": 23, "text": "Is this the dog you refer to as a dog grief", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, she died four years ago."}
{"id": "705809436", "date": "2019-03-22", "guest": "W S Merwin", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet W. S. Merwin", "question_index": 24, "text": "in one of your poems?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, she died four years ago."}
{"id": "705809436", "date": "2019-03-22", "guest": "W S Merwin", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet W. S. Merwin", "question_index": 25, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was one of them."}
{"id": "705809436", "date": "2019-03-22", "guest": "W S Merwin", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet W. S. Merwin", "question_index": 26, "text": "Right. Right. We have time for one more poem. And I'd like to ask you to close with a poem called \"Rain Light\" - if you can introduce it for us first.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. There were two of them who died very close together."}
{"id": "705809436", "date": "2019-03-22", "guest": "W S Merwin", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-Winning Poet W. S. Merwin", "question_index": 27, "text": "W.S. Merwin, thank you so much for talking with us and for reading some of your poems. Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I shall. It's, again, a poem in the third - in the last section of the book. And it's about - what is it about? It's about the very thing you were talking about. I mean, how - what happens as you face"}
{"id": "705815691", "date": "2019-03-22", "guest": "Dick Dale", "title": "Remembering Dick Dale, 'King Of The Surf Guitar'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Some of the surf music stars didn't really surf - most notably the Beach Boys - but you did. You actually did surf. Is there a connection between the sounds that you'd hear surfing and the kind of music you were playing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Guitar Player magazine once asked me, who is your influence? And I said Hank Williams. And they said Hank Williams doesn't play electric guitar. And but that's who it was. And music to me is like a fa"}
{"id": "705815691", "date": "2019-03-22", "guest": "Dick Dale", "title": "Remembering Dick Dale, 'King Of The Surf Guitar'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Did the sound of the ocean make you want to get that loud, amplified sound that you wanted?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Actually, the sounds were actually compared to, actually, my lions and tigers. And the ocean - the power of my tigers and the power of the ocean - when I would get, you know, thrown across a cage"}
{"id": "705815691", "date": "2019-03-22", "guest": "Dick Dale", "title": "Remembering Dick Dale, 'King Of The Surf Guitar'", "question_index": 2, "text": "So this is, like, really thick strings you're using. And that gives it a deeper sound?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it was - it's a combination of the ocean and the roar of my tigers and lions, and just putting it all together, that force. And the ocean just has the two sounds. It has the one that comes over "}
{"id": "705815691", "date": "2019-03-22", "guest": "Dick Dale", "title": "Remembering Dick Dale, 'King Of The Surf Guitar'", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it gives it a big - Joel Sullivan calls them bridge cables."}
{"id": "705815691", "date": "2019-03-22", "guest": "Dick Dale", "title": "Remembering Dick Dale, 'King Of The Surf Guitar'", "question_index": 4, "text": "What about the picking style that you developed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's why when I make faces, everybody goes, oh, man, you make the neatest faces. I go, that's pain. That's not..."}
{"id": "705815691", "date": "2019-03-22", "guest": "Dick Dale", "title": "Remembering Dick Dale, 'King Of The Surf Guitar'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Let's hear your original recording of \"Misirlou,\" which you made back in 1962.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The picking came from my parents - my father's side of the family, his grandparents - his mother and father were born in Beirut, Lebanon. And my mother's side of the family were born in Poland. So the"}
{"id": "705815691", "date": "2019-03-22", "guest": "Dick Dale", "title": "Remembering Dick Dale, 'King Of The Surf Guitar'", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think the original people that did it are probably turning over in their grave when they heard it the way I play it."}
{"id": "705815691", "date": "2019-03-22", "guest": "Dick Dale", "title": "Remembering Dick Dale, 'King Of The Surf Guitar'", "question_index": 7, "text": "What was the scene like on the beach when you started surfing and playing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think the original people that did it are probably turning over in their grave when they heard it the way I play it."}
{"id": "705815691", "date": "2019-03-22", "guest": "Dick Dale", "title": "Remembering Dick Dale, 'King Of The Surf Guitar'", "question_index": 8, "text": "When you started playing, you wanted a really loud sound and you couldn't get it loud enough, and you knew Leo Fender, the guitar maker, and - what? - you worked together to get an amplifier that would give you the volume you wanted?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We would start - we would go down to the beach at 5 o'clock in the morning to get the early glass off and build a fire to keep warm. We never had wetsuits at that time, so we froze in the water. We'd "}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Luis Alberto Urrea, writes what he describes as a literature of witness. He was born in Tijuana to a Mexican father and American mother. When he was 3, they moved to California. He grew up in a San Diego barrio. He has family on both sides of the border. This dual culture was the subject of his memoir, \"Nobody's Son.\" He's also written about the period he did relief work in Tijuana with the garbage pickers who survive on what they can find in the mountainous garbage dumps. He was nominated for a Pulitzer Prize for his 2004 nonfiction book, \"The Devil's Highway,\" about a group of 26 Mexican men who crossed the border illegally, guided by smugglers through the Arizona desert, where they were abandoned by the smugglers. More than half the men died in the desert. Urrea's latest novel, \"The House Of Broken Angels,\" just came out in paperback. It borrows from the real story of his older brother Juan, who was dying of cancer when his mother died. After her funeral, the family threw a party for Juan that was part birthday celebration, part wake. Urrea is a distinguished professor of writing at the University of Illinois, Chicago.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 1, "text": "Luis Urrea, welcome to FRESH AIR. So did Donald Trump's candidacy and election and build the wall and end DACA influence your decision to write this novel or influence the content of it?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 2, "text": "You know, part of me wants to ask you if you have relatives who are here illegally or have relatives who would be deported if DACA ends. But if you have relatives who are in danger of being deported, why would you want to tell me that in public like this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It definitely affected my rewrite of the novel. You know, the novel started out as a kind of a slim memoir inspired by the events of my brother's death and final birthday party on Earth before his dea"}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 3, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "but..."}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 4, "text": "You said that when you were growing up, there was, like, a border wall within your home...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I do know people intimately who are undocumented. And I know a lot of people in Chicago not related to me who are DREAMers who are in fear. So I would say in the most general terms without pointi"}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 5, "text": "...Because of the ethnic divisions. Your mother was born in Staten Island.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 6, "text": "Some of her family is from Virginia. Your father was Mexican, grew up in Mexico and lived there until you were 3. But your father, on the other hand, was white. Blond-haired and blue-eyed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Indeed."}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 7, "text": "So I'm not sure what his ethnic background was. But - so describe that wall in your own home.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes."}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 8, "text": "You must've been pretty confused when you were growing up if your parents were fighting over your identity. Identity is really hard to form when you're coming of age. You're asking yourself who you are. You try on different masks until you find your real face.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The situation was kind of complicated in that my mother didn't speak Spanish. My father spoke English, you know, as best he could. And I think that the worry in the family, our little, tiny family, wa"}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 9, "text": "But if your parents are arguing about who you are and whether you're Mexican or American, how can you figure out who you are?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 10, "text": "This was in San Diego?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Good question. I don't know. I mean, you know, I went from living in Tijuana full time to then being in the barrio, which was Tijuana lite, and spending..."}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 11, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he hated - he was like, what kind of a man wears hair like that, Mijo? She was winning on all those fronts. And my father was combating it with Tijuana television and old Mexican records that I di"}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He brought it home. And he slammed it on the table, and he said, Mijo, study this book in its original Spanish."}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 13, "text": "So in the conflict between your mother wanting you to be American and your father wanting you to be Mexican, did you, at some point, say to yourself, I'm Mexican-American?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I - even at that early age - it was probably fourth grade - I knew that he was pretty far off target. But it made me love him so much."}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I'll be honest with you. So the neighborhood we lived in was full of ethnic violence and strife. And it was a neighborhood where black versus brown versus white and any combination of those, OK? So "}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 15, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Right? - let us make peace and kick his butt today..."}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Which is perhaps what made me a big reader, right? I'd rush home and lock myself in and read. And in fourth grade, a scary event happened, which is melodramatic to talk about. But I escaped some st"}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I had gone - I had joined the Boy Scouts. I was instantly an American kid, and I liked it. I thought, OK, Americans have lawns. That's cool. I had not seen lawns until fifth grade - big green lawn"}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 18, "text": "And you describe yourself as looking Irish?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But that was the moment when people started calling me greaser, and I didn't know what to make of it. I found my Mexican accent - it wasn't a conscious choice. It just vanished. I started speaking lik"}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 19, "text": "Pale skin?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Kind of, yeah."}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 20, "text": "Why don't we take a short break here? And then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is novelist and journalist and poet Luis Urrea. His new novel is called \"The House Of Broken Angels.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And she was, you know, red-haired, blue-eyed, half-Irish lass. And my grandfather, Urrea, is Basque. We're Basques. And the name Urrea in the Basque language means golden man. So it was kind of some w"}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is writer Luis Urrea. His new book is a novel called \"The House Of Broken Angels.\" Your new novel is inspired in part by your older brother. You shared a father with him but had different mothers. Was his mother Mexican?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And she was, you know, red-haired, blue-eyed, half-Irish lass. And my grandfather, Urrea, is Basque. We're Basques. And the name Urrea in the Basque language means golden man. So it was kind of some w"}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 22, "text": "So he grew up culturally different than you did with your American mother.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes."}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 23, "text": "But he grew up in the States.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. He was 110 percent a Mexican man."}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 24, "text": "Oh, no, he grew up in Tijuana?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 25, "text": "So in the novel - well, in real life...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He grew up down in Mexico - yeah, Mexico City."}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 26, "text": "...Your brother was dying of cancer when his mother died...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 27, "text": "...In 2016?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 28, "text": "And then the day after her funeral, he had a party that was part birthday party and part wake because he was dying. And he knew he was dying, and everybody knew he was dying. And in fact, he did die a month after that party.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, 2016."}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 29, "text": "And so the novel is kind of centered around the funeral and the birthday-wake and all of the emotional changes within the family as a result of those two events. Would you describe what the real party was like when your brother was dying right after your mother died - or rather, his mother died, I should say.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He died a few weeks after. It was almost 10 days after he died."}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 30, "text": "The brothers in the book talk very intimately when they're lying side by side.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was the most remarkable thing I'd seen. And I spent the day laughing and then weeping. It was whiplash all day long. So you know, as described in the book with the character Big Angel, my brother w"}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 31, "text": "You describe the process of dying. And I want you to read a paragraph from \"The House Of Broken Angels\" in which Big Angel, the character who's dying, the brother who's dying, is actively dying.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 32, "text": "So you've witnessed people dying who you loved. Your mother died. Your brother died. You are, fortunately, alive. What was it like for you to imagine the process of dying from the point of view of the person who is dying?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) Big Angel was aware of the sad steps of the dance. It cost him great effort to speak now. When you died, you died in small doses. You had trouble speaking. You forgot who was beside you. You"}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 33, "text": "You and your brother?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Perhaps poetic license, though we spent a lot of time talking about mortality and how it felt."}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 34, "text": "Was the way he died consistent with who he was? He wanted to maintain his virility. How - did that affect how he handled his own death?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My brother, yeah. But I had experienced a whole lot of death, you know? Our father died horribly in the hands of Mexican cops. And, you know, I actually had to buy his corpse from them. So I've spent "}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 35, "text": "Wow. Like what?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He went out as heroically as he could. I think he was a man of great vigor and a man with a very strong sense of his self. And I think that he orchestrated the exit. He wanted to be magnificent. He wa"}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 36, "text": "What kind of things?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He planned out these timed things."}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 37, "text": "(Laughter).", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "On the anniversary, he had white flowers delivered to his widow with a handwritten letter from him, as though he had sent something from heaven. And, of course, being Mexicans, everybody said, oh, my "}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 38, "text": "He kind of did (laughter).", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Juan wrote a letter from heaven (laughter) - little things like that. And the tradition has carried on. And now in the family, of course, everybody says, wow, Juan's helped Luis write this book. It"}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 39, "text": "My guest is Luis Alberto Urrea. His new novel, \"The House Of Broken Angels,\" just came out in paperback. After a break, he'll tell us about his father's mysterious death in Mexico and how he had to buy the corpse from Mexican police. And our TV critic, David Bianculli, will review the new reboot of \"The Twilight Zone\" featuring Jordan Peele in the Rod Serling role, introducing each episode. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR. (SOUNDBITE OF SERGIO AND ODAIR ASSAD'S \"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, he did. I owe it to him."}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 40, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross, back with Luis Alberto Urrea. Much of his fiction and nonfiction relates to his life as a Mexican-American. His father was from Mexico, his mother from America. Urrea was born in Tijuana. At the age of 3, his family moved across the border to California. His new novel, \"The House Of Broken Angels,\" just came out in paperback. It's about a family with relatives on both sides of the border dealing with a death in the family members. His nonfiction books include \"The Devil's Highway,\" about a group of 26 Mexicans crossing the border illegally. Fourteen of them died in the desert while making the trip. Urrea also wrote a memoir called \"Nobody's Son.\" When we left off, we were talking about his family. (SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED BROADCAST)", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "RETIRANTES\")"}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 41, "text": "So you mentioned your father was killed by cops in Mexico. What happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "RETIRANTES\")"}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 42, "text": "What incredible corruption and heartlessness.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Oh, gosh. Well, I was the first to go to college. And again, you know, my siblings are all half-siblings. I was the only one - only child in our family. And my father wanted to celebrate it some"}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 43, "text": "They billed you for damages they said your father caused.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was stunning. It truly was. I - you know, I was a kid. I was a senior in college. I had no way to comprehend what was happening, really. And, you know, we had to bury him in an unmarked grave in Ti"}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 44, "text": "You know, you've written that your father was a superstar in Mexico but never found his footing in the U.S. What made him a superstar in Mexico?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. While dying in a hospital bed. And the piece I wrote about it - I wrote in my first book, he must have fallen out of the bed really hard."}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 45, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was on the presidential staff under several presidents in Mexico. He was - the president of Mexico - his license plate number was MEXICO1. He gave my father MEXICO2 (laughter)."}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 46, "text": "And when your father moved to the U.S., he had jobs like driving a bakery truck.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He met movie stars. You know, he traveled all over. He flew on the presidential plane. He represented the president. At one point, they were on a trip into Texas. And the president of Mexico was"}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 47, "text": "Must have been so frustrating for him to have been so highly appointed in Mexico and come here - not that there's anything wrong with driving a bakery truck. But it's certainly not the life he was used to.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he..."}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 48, "text": "What did - what was he asked to do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it was not. And yeah, bakery trucks - it's great when Dad comes home from work (laughter) because he drives the truck home, and then you get a donut. But my dad - you know, the Mexican government "}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 49, "text": "Like, assassinate somebody?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Kill somebody. And he didn't want to."}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 50, "text": "Why don't we take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more? If you're just joining us, my guest is novelist and journalist and poet Luis Urrea. His new novel is called \"The House Of Broken Angels.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR. (SOUNDBITE OF PAQUITO D'RIVERA'S \"CONTRADANZA\")", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. Kill somebody. And he used to tell me, I was paid $2,000 to do it, and I never cashed the check. And I thought, you know, it was one of those tall tales until he died. And I went through"}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 51, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is writer Luis Urrea. And his new book is a novel called \"The House Of Broken Angels.\" Both of your parents sound kind of remarkable. Your mother worked with the Red Cross during World War II.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. Kill somebody. And he used to tell me, I was paid $2,000 to do it, and I never cashed the check. And I thought, you know, it was one of those tall tales until he died. And I went through"}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 52, "text": "Well, let's just talk about her a little bit. I mean, what did she do with the Red Cross?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, she did."}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 53, "text": "You wrote about your mother a little bit in your memoir \"Nobody's Son.\" And, you know, you write about how she experienced, you know, like bomb blasts...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she wasn't a nurse. They had a program called The Clubmobile program, instituted by Eisenhower following the model of the Englishman. And the Clubmobile ladies were known in the vernacular among"}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 54, "text": "...That could have killed her.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 55, "text": "She was, you know, basically on the battlefield.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 56, "text": "Whoa.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was. She was in the Battle of the Bulge."}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 57, "text": "Something else that you've done I want to ask you about - you wrote a book that was published in 2004 called \"The Devil's Highway.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was trapped in the Siege of Bastogne. And she and her two truck mates were given a government citation for being the women most forward in combat in World War II. They were trapped right in the mi"}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 58, "text": "And this is the story of a group of 26 Mexicans who, in May of 2001, tried to cross the border into America through the desert with smugglers, you know, who were guiding them. And then the smugglers abandoned them in the desert. And they woke up one day. And they were just lost in the desert. So 12 of the 26 survive. Fourteen of them, I guess, died of, like - from the sun and the thirst.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh."}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 59, "text": "So you write about that and also write about the larger issue of the people who try to cross the border illegally through the desert. And you write about the Border Patrol guards and the trucks. And one of the things you write is your missionary background made you deeply sympathetic to the undocumented. Your Mexican-American background made you feel antagonistic toward the Border Patrol. But then you met Border Patrol agents. And, you know, you describe them as disrespected and demeaned by the right and the left.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 60, "text": "What was it like to meet them and try to kind of see the world from their point of view?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 61, "text": "So I want to read the dedication that you wrote in your book \"The Devil's Highway,\" which was about the group of 26 Mexicans who crossed into America illegally through the desert, were abandoned by the smugglers guiding them. Twelve of them survived, but 14 perished in the desert. So in that dedication, you write (reading) for the dead and for those who rescue the living. That's a beautiful dedication.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can laugh about it now. (Laughter) In the midst of their giving me a really rough time out at Wellton Station, their supervisory agent came out from the back room. And he saw it. And he asked, what "}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 62, "text": "When you meet people who really believe that we should build a wall between Mexico and the U.S., what do you tell them? I mean, what do you think about this moment in the life of our country where the president is insisting that he's going to build that wall?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, yeah. You know, how could I hate those agents I went in hating when I realized what they go through? And, you know, they don't talk about it. They won't tell you what they go through. But t"}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 63, "text": "It has been so great to talk with you. Thank you so much, and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's - you know, I try to be respectful. And one of the points for me is to listen to people and hear them because I think, sometimes, people get more and more outrageous because they feel insulted or"}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 64, "text": "...Let's do it again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "707974018", "date": "2019-03-29", "guest": "Luis Alberto Urrea", "title": "Mexican-American Author Finds Inspiration In Family, Tragedy And Trump", "question_index": 65, "text": "Luis Alberto Urrea's latest novel is called \"The House Of Broken Angels.\" It just came out in paperback. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, anytime. (LAUGHTER)"}
{"id": "709094399", "date": "2019-04-03", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. Points To Reconstruction As The Genesis Of White Supremacy", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The white nationalist movement of today has my guest, historian Henry Louis Gates, looking to the past for the roots of white supremacy. His new book is titled \"Stony The Road: Reconstruction, White Supremacy And The Rise Of Jim Crow.\" It covers the period after the Civil War, when new amendments to the Constitution enshrined rights for African-Americans, and it covers the period that followed, known as Redemption, when white Southerners found ways to roll back those rights. He also writes about the cultural and artistic Black Renaissance of the early 20th century. Included in the book is a series of visual essays containing racist images of those periods - from ads, flyers, posters, playing cards, songbooks and more. The book is his companion to the new two-part PBS series he hosts, \"Reconstruction: America After The Civil War,\" which airs April 9 and 16. Gates also hosts the PBS genealogical series \"Finding Your Roots\" and is a professor at Harvard, where he directs the Hutchins Center for African and African-American Research. Henry Louis Gates, welcome back to FRESH AIR. It's a pleasure to have you back on our show. Part of the reason why you wanted to do this book is that Reconstruction and Redemption, the period that rolled back the gains of Reconstruction, seem particularly relevant to you now. Why?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "709094399", "date": "2019-04-03", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. Points To Reconstruction As The Genesis Of White Supremacy", "question_index": 1, "text": "And the South wouldn't stand for it", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Dyllan McGee and I - my partner - had a list of three black history series that we wanted to do for PBS - one was on the black church, one was on the Great Migration, and one was on Reconstruction and"}
{"id": "709094399", "date": "2019-04-03", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. Points To Reconstruction As The Genesis Of White Supremacy", "question_index": 2, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Dyllan McGee and I - my partner - had a list of three black history series that we wanted to do for PBS - one was on the black church, one was on the Great Migration, and one was on Reconstruction and"}
{"id": "709094399", "date": "2019-04-03", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. Points To Reconstruction As The Genesis Of White Supremacy", "question_index": 3, "text": "That's where there was a rollback, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, the South wouldn't stand for it. In fact..."}
{"id": "709094399", "date": "2019-04-03", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. Points To Reconstruction As The Genesis Of White Supremacy", "question_index": 4, "text": "Some of your book is told through some of the images and sheet music and books and posters from the Redemption era, when rights were being rolled back, when black people's rights were being rolled back. And I'm wondering, were a lot of those images from your personal collection?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was the rollback. And remember there was that pesky problem of who was going to pick all that cotton? Cotton remains the most profitable United States export all through the 19th century, well in"}
{"id": "709094399", "date": "2019-04-03", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. Points To Reconstruction As The Genesis Of White Supremacy", "question_index": 5, "text": "You have an image of Jim Crow in your book, and this is - you know, he's an African-American dancer...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", and one of my jobs at Harvard is to be the director of the Hutchins Center for African and African-American Research, which houses a big project called the Image of the Black in Western Art Project."}
{"id": "709094399", "date": "2019-04-03", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. Points To Reconstruction As The Genesis Of White Supremacy", "question_index": 6, "text": "...Who was portrayed by a white comedian named Thomas Dartmouth \"Daddy\" Rice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "709094399", "date": "2019-04-03", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. Points To Reconstruction As The Genesis Of White Supremacy", "question_index": 7, "text": "I was wondering, like, how this stereotypical image of this fictional character, Jim Crow, became the words that were used to define the segregated South and that were used to define the laws that officially segregated the South.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, that's from the 1830s. So Jim Crow was born as a figure, a parody of black people, at the height of slavery in the 1830s. And somehow, that figure of Jim Crow came to be used metaphorically for"}
{"id": "709094399", "date": "2019-04-03", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. Points To Reconstruction As The Genesis Of White Supremacy", "question_index": 8, "text": "So, you know, the performer who did the character of Jim Crow performed it in blackface. It was a white performer performing in blackface. So I couldn't help but wonder what you made of the whole, like, Virginia scandal where we learned that Governor Ralph Northam posed in blackface for his medical school yearbook photo, or at least he included a photo of him in blackface. And then the attorney general of the state, Mark Herring, admitted he'd been in blackface. Did you know that this kind of thing was still going on, even though it might be in a different form than it was in the 1800s and early 1900s?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have never read a simple explanation that connected the figure of Jim Crow to the concept of Jim Crow segregation. So I don't know. Maybe some scholar knows why in the world some white supremacist u"}
{"id": "709094399", "date": "2019-04-03", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. Points To Reconstruction As The Genesis Of White Supremacy", "question_index": 9, "text": "So when Jim Crow segregation becomes the law of the land in the South, you need arguments to justify it. And we know one of the arguments that was used to justify segregation was that, well, you know, black people are subhuman. In fact, I mean, they're not even human. They're from a different species altogether. So among the, like, pseudoscientific arguments that are made for the supremacy of white people and the subhuman characteristics of black people is studying their foreheads, studying their skulls, and having these...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "After I graduated from Yale, I went to graduate school in England at the University of Cambridge. And there was - this is 1973. And still then, there were, quote-unquote, blackface minstrels performin"}
{"id": "709094399", "date": "2019-04-03", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. Points To Reconstruction As The Genesis Of White Supremacy", "question_index": 10, "text": "...You know, these pseudoscientific explanations for how skull size correlate with intelligence or lack of intelligence. Can you talk a little bit about that pseudoscience and how it figures into our American history?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "709094399", "date": "2019-04-03", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. Points To Reconstruction As The Genesis Of White Supremacy", "question_index": 11, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates, who also hosts the PBS genealogy series \"Finding Your Roots.\" There's a new series that's coming up on reconstruction and redemption. He has a new book called \"Stony The Road: Reconstruction, White Supremacy, And The Rise Of Jim Crow.\" So we're going to take a short break, and then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's called craniology. And it was thought that the size and shape of a skull reflected the degree of intelligence within. But that science starts in the late 18th century and early 19th century"}
{"id": "709094399", "date": "2019-04-03", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. Points To Reconstruction As The Genesis Of White Supremacy", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Henry Louis Gates. He has a new book called \"Stony The Road: Reconstruction, White Supremacy, And The Rise Of Jim Crow,\" and he wrote this book in conjunction with a PBS series that he hosts. It's a two-part series starting on April 9, and that's called \"Reconstruction: America After The Civil War.\" You have some lynching postcards in your book. And lynchings had been, like, public spectacles where people, like, picnicked and watched and bought souvenir postcards of lynchings. In the archive that you oversee at Harvard, is there a big collection of these?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's called craniology. And it was thought that the size and shape of a skull reflected the degree of intelligence within. But that science starts in the late 18th century and early 19th century"}
{"id": "709094399", "date": "2019-04-03", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. Points To Reconstruction As The Genesis Of White Supremacy", "question_index": 13, "text": "Because they were just too horrible to include.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The biggest collection of racist memorabilia in the United States is at Ferris State University. And some of the images of - when you look at the credit, some of the images we use in the book come fro"}
{"id": "709094399", "date": "2019-04-03", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. Points To Reconstruction As The Genesis Of White Supremacy", "question_index": 14, "text": "I think, also, a difference might be the images that are in your book are from, like, a hundred years ago. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were too horrible. In the original formulation of the book, it took a long time for me to decide not to include it, but I included a visual essay on racist images of President Obama. And I though"}
{"id": "709094399", "date": "2019-04-03", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. Points To Reconstruction As The Genesis Of White Supremacy", "question_index": 15, "text": "...You can see them in a historical perspective, whereas Barack Obama is still very much alive. He's still being very much demonized, and it's dangerous for somebody to be demonized like that. So it's - it strikes me as a different kind of decision. In other words, I'm trying to basically say I really understand why you would put in racist images from the past in your book, but choose not to include racist images of Obama.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "709094399", "date": "2019-04-03", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. Points To Reconstruction As The Genesis Of White Supremacy", "question_index": 16, "text": "The title of your book, \"Stony The Road,\" comes from a line in the black national anthem, \"Lift Every Voice And Sing.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I'm glad that you agree. And it was the right decision. Now, you know, that the book is dedicated to the innocents who were martyred at Mother Emanuel Church under the leadership of Reverend Cleme"}
{"id": "709094399", "date": "2019-04-03", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. Points To Reconstruction As The Genesis Of White Supremacy", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm so old we call it the Negro national anthem."}
{"id": "709094399", "date": "2019-04-03", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. Points To Reconstruction As The Genesis Of White Supremacy", "question_index": 18, "text": "It's such a beautiful song. There was - one of the radio shows on the jazz station in New York when I was in high school used to use that as, I think, the closing theme of the show. So I used to tune in a lot of nights just to hear that", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I still - I insist that's the name of it 'cause that's what my mama told me to call it."}
{"id": "709094399", "date": "2019-04-03", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. Points To Reconstruction As The Genesis Of White Supremacy", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I still - I insist that's the name of it 'cause that's what my mama told me to call it."}
{"id": "709094399", "date": "2019-04-03", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. Points To Reconstruction As The Genesis Of White Supremacy", "question_index": 20, "text": "Oh, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, you did?"}
{"id": "709094399", "date": "2019-04-03", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. Points To Reconstruction As The Genesis Of White Supremacy", "question_index": 21, "text": "It's just such a great - but anyways, I think most people know the first verse better than the verse that you take your title from. So do you want to quote that verse for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a..."}
{"id": "709094399", "date": "2019-04-03", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. Points To Reconstruction As The Genesis Of White Supremacy", "question_index": 22, "text": "Would you sing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Now, you want me to sing it, or you want me to recite it?"}
{"id": "709094399", "date": "2019-04-03", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. Points To Reconstruction As The Genesis Of White Supremacy", "question_index": 23, "text": "That would be great if you sang it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. I don't know if I'm in voice."}
{"id": "709094399", "date": "2019-04-03", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. Points To Reconstruction As The Genesis Of White Supremacy", "question_index": 24, "text": "Well, thank you. That's more...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK, it goes like this. (Singing) Stony the road we trod, bitter the chastening rod felt in the day that hope unborn had died. Yet with a steady beat have not our weary feet come to the place on which "}
{"id": "709094399", "date": "2019-04-03", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. Points To Reconstruction As The Genesis Of White Supremacy", "question_index": 25, "text": "...Way more than I hoped for.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "709094399", "date": "2019-04-03", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. Points To Reconstruction As The Genesis Of White Supremacy", "question_index": 26, "text": "Thank you for just actually singing that. What role has that song played in your life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "709094399", "date": "2019-04-03", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. Points To Reconstruction As The Genesis Of White Supremacy", "question_index": 27, "text": "Before we have to end, I'm wondering if you hear any other echoes of Reconstruction or of Redemption - the period of the rollback of rights for African-Americans - if you hear any echoes of that today.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this song was written to inspire young black children at a time when there was nothing on the horizon that was inspirational, nothing that would make black people think that the rights our peopl"}
{"id": "709094399", "date": "2019-04-03", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. Points To Reconstruction As The Genesis Of White Supremacy", "question_index": 28, "text": "Henry Louis Gates, a pleasure to talk with you again. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The issues central to Reconstruction - and let's think about them - citizenship, voting rights, who has the right to vote, who has the right to be a citizen, terrorist violence, the relationship betwe"}
{"id": "709094399", "date": "2019-04-03", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. Points To Reconstruction As The Genesis Of White Supremacy", "question_index": 29, "text": "Henry Louis Gates is the author of the new book \"Stony The Road: Reconstruction, White Supremacy, And The Rise Of Jim Crow.\" It's his companion to the new PBS series he hosts called \"Reconstruction: America After The Civil War,\" which airs April 9 and 16. Gates also has a new book for young adults called \"Dark Sky Rising: Reconstruction And The Dawn Of Jim Crow.\" After we take a short break, we'll hear from comic Rob Delaney, co-creator, co-writer and co-star of the comedy series \"Catastrophe.\" I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "710261720", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Gwen Verdon", "title": "From The 'Fresh Air' Archives: Dancer Gwen Verdon", "question_index": 0, "text": "Now, I read about you that you had rickets when you were very young.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) If they could see me now, that little gang of mine. I'm eating fancy chow and drinking fancy wine. I'd like those stumble bums to see for a fact the kind of top drawer, first-rate chums I at"}
{"id": "710261720", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Gwen Verdon", "title": "From The 'Fresh Air' Archives: Dancer Gwen Verdon", "question_index": 1, "text": "And that damaged your legs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "710261720", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Gwen Verdon", "title": "From The 'Fresh Air' Archives: Dancer Gwen Verdon", "question_index": 2, "text": "And did that work?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're born that way. I guess it's from some kind of malnutrition. But it - with corrective exercise, not surgery, which they wanted to do - and my mother wouldn't allow it. But the orthopedic surgeon"}
{"id": "710261720", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Gwen Verdon", "title": "From The 'Fresh Air' Archives: Dancer Gwen Verdon", "question_index": 3, "text": "What did the corrective boots look like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It sure did, that and corrective boots. They never operated."}
{"id": "710261720", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Gwen Verdon", "title": "From The 'Fresh Air' Archives: Dancer Gwen Verdon", "question_index": 4, "text": "I don't understand how you were able to dance with your knee - with your legs in such bad shape and having to wear these corrective boots all the time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, God. They were just dreadful. They were big, high-top brown things and the heel was very crooked. It would make me walk on the outsides of my feet so that the inner muscle would stay short. I must"}
{"id": "710261720", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Gwen Verdon", "title": "From The 'Fresh Air' Archives: Dancer Gwen Verdon", "question_index": 5, "text": "So you did almost corrective dance?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no, I didn't dance with them on. And I did all kinds of the exercises. My mother kept saying, yes, you're doing ballet. But instead of my heels being together in a turned-out position, I was alway"}
{"id": "710261720", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Gwen Verdon", "title": "From The 'Fresh Air' Archives: Dancer Gwen Verdon", "question_index": 6, "text": "I guess - I'm wondering if you were ever self-conscious when you started to dance on stage since you grew up so self-conscious about your legs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely."}
{"id": "710261720", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Gwen Verdon", "title": "From The 'Fresh Air' Archives: Dancer Gwen Verdon", "question_index": 7, "text": "After that review, you developed stage fright?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I was so young when I began performing that I don't remember being self-conscious. I do remember in 1959, I think it was - again, it was \"Redhead\". And it was the first time I ever read revi"}
{"id": "710261720", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Gwen Verdon", "title": "From The 'Fresh Air' Archives: Dancer Gwen Verdon", "question_index": 8, "text": "Why did that review lead to stage - it's such a flattering review. Why did it lead to stage fright?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "710261720", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Gwen Verdon", "title": "From The 'Fresh Air' Archives: Dancer Gwen Verdon", "question_index": 9, "text": "So that made you feel like a fraud?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's very flattering, but I've never thought - and I still don't, and I know it's the truth. I am not a great beauty. I feel like one on stage, but I felt like an absolute fool being compared to Arlen"}
{"id": "710261720", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Gwen Verdon", "title": "From The 'Fresh Air' Archives: Dancer Gwen Verdon", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, when you started getting stage fright, what were the symptoms, and how did you deal with it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "710261720", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Gwen Verdon", "title": "From The 'Fresh Air' Archives: Dancer Gwen Verdon", "question_index": 11, "text": "Who - would somebody have to talk you onto stage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would shake. My mouth would go dry, and I was afraid to be on stage."}
{"id": "710261720", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Gwen Verdon", "title": "From The 'Fresh Air' Archives: Dancer Gwen Verdon", "question_index": 12, "text": "What's a time when you actually panicked on stage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd get out there and then panic."}
{"id": "710261720", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Gwen Verdon", "title": "From The 'Fresh Air' Archives: Dancer Gwen Verdon", "question_index": 13, "text": "What would the director say when you did that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It, again, was during \"Redhead.\" And I would be out there with the entire cast, and everyone would leave. And I would have to sing a song. And sometimes I would just walk off and get my aunt, with who"}
{"id": "710261720", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Gwen Verdon", "title": "From The 'Fresh Air' Archives: Dancer Gwen Verdon", "question_index": 14, "text": "Did people in the audience assume that this was innovative stage direction?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He understood. He sent me to an excellent doctor, and I was fine. But then I was also given an article to read about Laurence Olivier, who also had stage fright and would turn his back. Everyone thoug"}
{"id": "710261720", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Gwen Verdon", "title": "From The 'Fresh Air' Archives: Dancer Gwen Verdon", "question_index": 15, "text": "I think \"Damn Yankees\" was the first Broadway show that you worked on with Bob Fosse who later became your husband.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Lola, singing) Whatever Lola wants, Lola gets. And little man, little Lola wants you. Make up your mind to have no regrets. Recline yourself. Resign yourself. You're through. I always get what I a"}
{"id": "710261720", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Gwen Verdon", "title": "From The 'Fresh Air' Archives: Dancer Gwen Verdon", "question_index": 16, "text": "What was it like the first time you worked with him and danced to his choreography? What was different about his choreography and direction from what you had experienced before?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "True."}
{"id": "710261720", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Gwen Verdon", "title": "From The 'Fresh Air' Archives: Dancer Gwen Verdon", "question_index": 17, "text": "What was required of you that you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The first thing that I noticed was it was so amusing. I know - I know it was sensuous. I know it was all of those things, but it was done with such a sense of humor and also done with the innocence of"}
{"id": "710261720", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Gwen Verdon", "title": "From The 'Fresh Air' Archives: Dancer Gwen Verdon", "question_index": 18, "text": "Do you feel that you played Lola, the devilish seductress, as funny?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ballet, tap, isolation, which I had learned from East Indian dancing. And, I mean, there was his humor. I had worked with Jack Cole, who always did very sensuous women. He did Gilda for that number - "}
{"id": "710261720", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Gwen Verdon", "title": "From The 'Fresh Air' Archives: Dancer Gwen Verdon", "question_index": 19, "text": "Mmm hmm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I played it as a child. Have you seen little girls all dressed up in their mothers' clothes..."}
{"id": "710261720", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Gwen Verdon", "title": "From The 'Fresh Air' Archives: Dancer Gwen Verdon", "question_index": 20, "text": "When you said that there was isolation required for Bob Fosse's choreography, do you mean, like, just moving one shoulder or an elbow or just, like, one part of the body?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know, and lipstick smeared all over their face? I did it like that."}
{"id": "710261720", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Gwen Verdon", "title": "From The 'Fresh Air' Archives: Dancer Gwen Verdon", "question_index": 21, "text": "Would he do the moves to show you what he wanted?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And it was extremely musical. That was up to Bob. I mean, the music is the groundwater, but he would catch every little thing. If you moved your little finger, there would be a ting on a triangle"}
{"id": "710261720", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Gwen Verdon", "title": "From The 'Fresh Air' Archives: Dancer Gwen Verdon", "question_index": 22, "text": "Oh, no", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And they were hysterical. And I went and said, I don't think I can do that in high heels. So Bob put on high heels and did it, so..."}
{"id": "710261720", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Gwen Verdon", "title": "From The 'Fresh Air' Archives: Dancer Gwen Verdon", "question_index": 23, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely."}
{"id": "710261720", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Gwen Verdon", "title": "From The 'Fresh Air' Archives: Dancer Gwen Verdon", "question_index": 24, "text": "Well, could he do it in high heels?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he believed me, but he had to find out for himself."}
{"id": "710261720", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Gwen Verdon", "title": "From The 'Fresh Air' Archives: Dancer Gwen Verdon", "question_index": 25, "text": "So then you were forced to do it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. He could."}
{"id": "710261720", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Gwen Verdon", "title": "From The 'Fresh Air' Archives: Dancer Gwen Verdon", "question_index": 26, "text": "What was the trick?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not forced - I thought, oh, as soon as I could see how he did it in heels."}
{"id": "710261720", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Gwen Verdon", "title": "From The 'Fresh Air' Archives: Dancer Gwen Verdon", "question_index": 27, "text": "So what was the solution he came up with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was not a trick. It was a certain step in \"Lola\" where you keep twisting. And I kept (ph) thinking the heels are - one heel is going to scrape by my other foot."}
{"id": "710261720", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Gwen Verdon", "title": "From The 'Fresh Air' Archives: Dancer Gwen Verdon", "question_index": 28, "text": "Just do it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just do it. You know..."}
{"id": "710261720", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Gwen Verdon", "title": "From The 'Fresh Air' Archives: Dancer Gwen Verdon", "question_index": 29, "text": "Because of your muscle problem.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And if you're turned in enough - you had to be very turned in, which worked just great for me because that's how I studied dance. That's how my mother taught me when I was 2."}
{"id": "710261720", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Gwen Verdon", "title": "From The 'Fresh Air' Archives: Dancer Gwen Verdon", "question_index": 30, "text": "You worked with Bob Fosse on several musicals - \"New Girl In Town,\" \"Redhead,\" \"Chicago,\" \"Sweet Charity\" as well as \"Damn Yankees.\" Were there particular things that he liked to use you for that he thought of as being Gwen Verdon moves, you know, that were just saved for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "710261720", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Gwen Verdon", "title": "From The 'Fresh Air' Archives: Dancer Gwen Verdon", "question_index": 31, "text": "Once you and Bob Fosse were married, was it any harder or easier to work together?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. You know, because you couldn't do the same movement on somebody else, and because they're built differently and have a different point of view, it does not look the same. And Bob was very good abo"}
{"id": "710261720", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Gwen Verdon", "title": "From The 'Fresh Air' Archives: Dancer Gwen Verdon", "question_index": 32, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, because I never thought of him, when we were working, as my husband. In fact, Judy Garland came backstage one time, and she said, oh, your husband's done a fabulous job. And I actually said, who?"}
{"id": "710261720", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Gwen Verdon", "title": "From The 'Fresh Air' Archives: Dancer Gwen Verdon", "question_index": 33, "text": "Why was it easier to not think of him as your husband?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't associate that at all."}
{"id": "710263920", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Merce Cunningham", "title": "Remembering Choreographer And Dancer Merce Cunningham", "question_index": 0, "text": "Most of us think of dance as being done to music, you know, where it - where all the movements are in sync with the rhythm of the music that it's being performed to. But you came up with the idea of simultaneous but independent dance and music. What gave you that idea?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, editor of the website TV Worth Watching, sitting in for Terry Gross. Later this month, on April 16, dance companies around the world will celebrate what would h"}
{"id": "710263920", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Merce Cunningham", "title": "Remembering Choreographer And Dancer Merce Cunningham", "question_index": 1, "text": "When you and Cage were first touring together and performing, I mean, audiences were certainly - many still aren't used to it now - but certainly then, in the early '50s, no one was used to the idea of independent dance and music, and music and the dance not telling a story. What kind of reactions did you get? Did you get booed a lot?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Cage had this way of composing music which involved what he calls time - called a time structure. That is not - music not based on harmony or based on modulations or based on various kinds of form - t"}
{"id": "710263920", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Merce Cunningham", "title": "Remembering Choreographer And Dancer Merce Cunningham", "question_index": 2, "text": "During those times when you were booed, during those early years, did you have enough belief in what you were doing to not be discouraged by the negative reactions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "710263920", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Merce Cunningham", "title": "Remembering Choreographer And Dancer Merce Cunningham", "question_index": 3, "text": "So the boos were just part of that process for you and not a real obstacle?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was and remains to me an extraordinary area to work in. It seems to me constantly one can constantly be refreshed. I - at least for my - and my personal feeling's that way as I work at it. An"}
{"id": "710263920", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Merce Cunningham", "title": "Remembering Choreographer And Dancer Merce Cunningham", "question_index": 4, "text": "I bet, though, you figured out some pretty creative ways to survive on next to no money during those years when you were touring in the Volkswagen bus and performing at colleges.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "710263920", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Merce Cunningham", "title": "Remembering Choreographer And Dancer Merce Cunningham", "question_index": 5, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, you mean money. Oh, well..."}
{"id": "710263920", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Merce Cunningham", "title": "Remembering Choreographer And Dancer Merce Cunningham", "question_index": 6, "text": "Do you think of the male and female body as being very different instruments?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "710263920", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Merce Cunningham", "title": "Remembering Choreographer And Dancer Merce Cunningham", "question_index": 7, "text": "Are there ways that you think of yourself as using men and women differently in your dances?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. They're both the same and different. First of all, you start with the fact that they have two legs and two arms and one head. That's the same. But there is a physical difference in the woman's bo"}
{"id": "710263920", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Merce Cunningham", "title": "Remembering Choreographer And Dancer Merce Cunningham", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, you've talked about how you don't want a frontal emphasis in your dance. And you don't want - you know, you don't want to be focused on the center, and you don't want to just be focused on the front. It should be interesting from any angle. Why is that important to you since, you know, in most theaters, there are just audiences seated in front?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I use them both as individuals - that is, simply as - who may be doing the same movement but not necessarily at the same time, just as you might as you - if you look at a flock of birds, in a sense, t"}
{"id": "710263920", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Merce Cunningham", "title": "Remembering Choreographer And Dancer Merce Cunningham", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's based on the idea of proscenium theaters - as they called it, the Italian theater. It's based on the idea of perspective where you have a point to which everything relates some way or ano"}
{"id": "710263920", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Merce Cunningham", "title": "Remembering Choreographer And Dancer Merce Cunningham", "question_index": 10, "text": "Many dancers start choreographing after they retire from dance. Now, you've always been doing both, and you haven't stopped dancing.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1985 interview with the late dancer and choreographer Merce Cunningham, who was born a hundred years ago this month. Cunningham died in 2009 at the age of "}
{"id": "710263920", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Merce Cunningham", "title": "Remembering Choreographer And Dancer Merce Cunningham", "question_index": 11, "text": "You do less.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do less."}
{"id": "710263920", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Merce Cunningham", "title": "Remembering Choreographer And Dancer Merce Cunningham", "question_index": 12, "text": "But you still dance. And you're in your mid-60s...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "710263920", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Merce Cunningham", "title": "Remembering Choreographer And Dancer Merce Cunningham", "question_index": 13, "text": "...Now. Has working with your own body for dance as you've gotten older brought up any really interesting ways of using it that you hadn't thought of before when you were younger and had a more flexible body then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "710263920", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Merce Cunningham", "title": "Remembering Choreographer And Dancer Merce Cunningham", "question_index": 14, "text": "Do you still do daily exercises?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I think so. I think the things about balance and about - since there are certain - many kinds of movements now that are not free for me to do - I'm not physically free to do - I find other ones. "}
{"id": "710263920", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Merce Cunningham", "title": "Remembering Choreographer And Dancer Merce Cunningham", "question_index": 15, "text": "What's your mental attitude toward doing the exercises every day? Because it could become very tedious and a routine that you have to drag yourself through every day.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I do what the dancers - what ballet people call a warm-up or a barre - I don't do as much as I used to, naturally not. But I do - I always do it when we're on tour. For example, I get up and go t"}
{"id": "710263920", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Merce Cunningham", "title": "Remembering Choreographer And Dancer Merce Cunningham", "question_index": 16, "text": "It's not enjoyable.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it's terrible."}
{"id": "710263920", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Merce Cunningham", "title": "Remembering Choreographer And Dancer Merce Cunningham", "question_index": 17, "text": "You've had your share of injuries - haven't you? - in dance?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "710263920", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Merce Cunningham", "title": "Remembering Choreographer And Dancer Merce Cunningham", "question_index": 18, "text": "Yeah. How do you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like all dancers, yes."}
{"id": "710263920", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Merce Cunningham", "title": "Remembering Choreographer And Dancer Merce Cunningham", "question_index": 19, "text": "How do you know when it's OK to actually continue with the performance and keep dancing and when, if you do that, you're going to ruin that joint or that muscle forever and it'll ruin you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's constant."}
{"id": "710263920", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Merce Cunningham", "title": "Remembering Choreographer And Dancer Merce Cunningham", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that you shouldn't ask me that question 'cause I'm not sure I do know because I've danced under injuries which probably most dancers would have sense enough not to have done."}
{"id": "710263920", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Merce Cunningham", "title": "Remembering Choreographer And Dancer Merce Cunningham", "question_index": 21, "text": "But you haven't suffered anything catastrophic from that. You haven't had to abandon dancing or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So don't ask me."}
{"id": "710263920", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Merce Cunningham", "title": "Remembering Choreographer And Dancer Merce Cunningham", "question_index": 22, "text": "During those periods when you've been in pain because of an injury or just because of the toll that dancing daily takes on your body, have you ever taken painkillers or anything like that, or do you have a mental attitude that is - that can distract you from your own pain and take your mind off of it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I thought at two points I was going to because I had a bad spine, a terrible back problem, sacroiliac lumbar like so many people have. And then I simply developed exercises that have kept me goi"}
{"id": "710263920", "date": "2019-04-05", "guest": "Merce Cunningham", "title": "Remembering Choreographer And Dancer Merce Cunningham", "question_index": 23, "text": "You have challenged a lot of traditions and conventions of dance. Do you think it's important for artists to challenge conventions? Do you think that the act of challenging is important in and of itself? Or is that irrelevant and you just challenge things because that was your sensibility and that's the way it is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I was going to say yes and no. Once I took - I think it was when I had the back troubles. I took some - I don't know what they were. The doctor gave me something. But I realized that that was only"}
{"id": "711379453", "date": "2019-04-09", "guest": "Jake Sherman", "title": "Reporters Say Members Of Congress Are 'Obsessed' With Getting Re-Elected", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Congress in the Trump era is the subject of the new book by my guests Jake Sherman and Anna Palmer. It's called \"The Hill To Die On: The Battle For Congress And The Future Of Trump's America.\" Sherman and Palmer are senior writers for Politico and co-write the twice-a-day newsletter Politico Playbook. Their new book covers Capitol Hill, when Republicans controlled both houses of Congress as well as the White House, and describes how the power dynamic changed after Democrats took control of the House last year and Nancy Pelosi reclaimed her position as speaker. One thing that Democrats and Republicans in Congress have in common during this divisive period is that they're both dealing with a president who is unpredictable and doesn't follow protocol when it comes to dealing with Congress. Jake Sherman, Anna Palmer, welcome to FRESH AIR. So we're supposed to be a government of checks and balances. The Congress voted against giving President Trump the money he requested for the wall, so the president declared a national emergency to build the wall and plans on getting the money from other parts of the budget. And Republicans who voted against funding for Trump's wall seem to be willingly ceding their power to the president - ceding their power as being, like, a check against the president. Tell us why you think that's happening.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "711379453", "date": "2019-04-09", "guest": "Jake Sherman", "title": "Reporters Say Members Of Congress Are 'Obsessed' With Getting Re-Elected", "question_index": 1, "text": "Do you think that Republicans in Congress are afraid of President Trump and afraid to stand up to him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's kind of the most recent example of a long string of Congress giving its power away to the presidency, to be honest with you. We've seen this in various fashions over the last 10 years. Co"}
{"id": "711379453", "date": "2019-04-09", "guest": "Jake Sherman", "title": "Reporters Say Members Of Congress Are 'Obsessed' With Getting Re-Elected", "question_index": 2, "text": "So Republicans have traditionally been against massive federal spending and against deficits. But right now, I mean, the tax bill that Republicans passed has greatly added to the deficit. Spending for the wall that the president wants - I mean, that's a hugely expensive bill. And it's another issue where Republicans don't seem to be standing up to Trump on that. Have Republicans changed in their attitude toward spending as the party has gotten further to the right? Have the priorities shifted?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think they're afraid. But I do think there is a concern about going up against the president on key issues like immigration and the border, for example, and what that impact might have on thei"}
{"id": "711379453", "date": "2019-04-09", "guest": "Jake Sherman", "title": "Reporters Say Members Of Congress Are 'Obsessed' With Getting Re-Elected", "question_index": 3, "text": "It seems so paradoxical that for the first couple of years of the Trump presidency, Paul Ryan was the speaker of the House. And he was, like, the deficit hawk. I mean, that was - there were so many programs he wanted to cut. That was his thing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I think it's actually pretty stunning. When Jake and I have been covering Capitol Hill Republicans in power for years, the orthodoxy was, spend less, cut spending. And Donald Trump came "}
{"id": "711379453", "date": "2019-04-09", "guest": "Jake Sherman", "title": "Reporters Say Members Of Congress Are 'Obsessed' With Getting Re-Elected", "question_index": 4, "text": "Well, you write about how one of the reasons why Ryan wanted to stay in the House - 'cause he was conflicted about staying or going. He wanted to set an example that there could be, like - I think he used the word a normal person in Congress in the party.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was. And this is something that history will have to reckon with in a way that we are not able to at this moment or we're only beginning to be able to at this moment. But Paul Ryan's orthodoxy - hi"}
{"id": "711379453", "date": "2019-04-09", "guest": "Jake Sherman", "title": "Reporters Say Members Of Congress Are 'Obsessed' With Getting Re-Elected", "question_index": 5, "text": "But then he decided to leave.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think Paul Ryan, and I certainly think Mitch McConnell, who leads the Senate Republicans, feel like they are kind of the guardrails of this presidency in terms of making sure that things don't go to"}
{"id": "711379453", "date": "2019-04-09", "guest": "Jake Sherman", "title": "Reporters Say Members Of Congress Are 'Obsessed' With Getting Re-Elected", "question_index": 6, "text": "Now, I want to ask you about Lindsey Graham. He heads the Senate Judiciary Committee. And after the House voted unanimously to release the full Mueller report, Lindsey Graham decided not to even bring that up to the Judiciary Committee. And Graham's been demanding that the Democrats also vote on appointing a special counsel to look into alleged Department of Justice misconduct on the investigations into President Trump and into Hillary Clinton. Lindsey Graham used to be so close to John McCain - to Senator McCain. And President Trump seems to have missed no opportunity to insult John McCain. He insulted him during the campaign. He insulted him when he came to office. He insulted John McCain after John McCain died. And Lindsey Graham has become very close and very politically aligned to President Trump. Do you have any insights into what happened to Lindsey Graham between the time when he was, you know, the closest of allies with John McCain and now, when he's so close to the person who has maligned John McCain?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He called him Foxhole Paul, which is his way of saying he wasn't in the foxhole with the president. Paul Ryan wasn't in the foxhole with the president. So it was a complicated relationship between two"}
{"id": "711379453", "date": "2019-04-09", "guest": "Jake Sherman", "title": "Reporters Say Members Of Congress Are 'Obsessed' With Getting Re-Elected", "question_index": 7, "text": "What are Republicans looking to right now to see if the winds are shifting against Trump? - because if they're aligning with Trump because they think it's going to help them with re-election, then they need Trump's support. But if Trump is losing support, then it would hurt them to be aligned with Trump when the next election comes around. So how are they testing the winds on that? - because it's always - it always seems to be questionable if there's going to be a point at which the wind shifts.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would say one more thing on top of that. I think that writing this book has made - has sharpened this point in my mind - that politicians really exist in a political moment, meaning they act the way"}
{"id": "711379453", "date": "2019-04-09", "guest": "Jake Sherman", "title": "Reporters Say Members Of Congress Are 'Obsessed' With Getting Re-Elected", "question_index": 8, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more about what's happening in Congress now. If you're just joining us, my guests are Jake Sherman and Anna Palmer. They co-write Politico's Playbook, and now they have a new book-book -", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You saw this recently. The president said he wanted to do health care reform. And Republicans said, no, thanks. We lost the House of Representatives because we got into a prolonged fight over health c"}
{"id": "711379453", "date": "2019-04-09", "guest": "Jake Sherman", "title": "Reporters Say Members Of Congress Are 'Obsessed' With Getting Re-Elected", "question_index": 9, "text": "- which is called \"The Hill To Die On: The Battle For Congress And The Future Of Trump's America.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You saw this recently. The president said he wanted to do health care reform. And Republicans said, no, thanks. We lost the House of Representatives because we got into a prolonged fight over health c"}
{"id": "711379453", "date": "2019-04-09", "guest": "Jake Sherman", "title": "Reporters Say Members Of Congress Are 'Obsessed' With Getting Re-Elected", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guests are Anna Palmer and Jake Sherman. And they co-write Politico's Playbook. And they also have a new book that they've co-written called \"The Hill To Die On: The Battle For Congress And The Future Of Trump's America.\" Let's look at some divisions within the Democratic Party now between the mainstream of the party and the newer, more left members in the House, like Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. And so there's questions now about whether to push for Medicare for All or make incremental changes in Obamacare, whether to go for the Green New Deal or more incremental environmental change. Give us a sense of the dynamic now in the House among Democrats, between the more left-leaning, new members - who are also largely, you know, younger - and the more veteran members, those who are more mainstream.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You saw this recently. The president said he wanted to do health care reform. And Republicans said, no, thanks. We lost the House of Representatives because we got into a prolonged fight over health c"}
{"id": "711379453", "date": "2019-04-09", "guest": "Jake Sherman", "title": "Reporters Say Members Of Congress Are 'Obsessed' With Getting Re-Elected", "question_index": 11, "text": "How are divisions among Democrats effecting the tactics that they're using to move forward with opposition to the president? Are they divided on those tactics?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. The center of gravity in the House of Representatives among Democrats is Nancy Pelosi, the House speaker. And that's the - kind of an eternal truism about Democratic politics. Nancy Pelosi has b"}
{"id": "711379453", "date": "2019-04-09", "guest": "Jake Sherman", "title": "Reporters Say Members Of Congress Are 'Obsessed' With Getting Re-Elected", "question_index": 12, "text": "President Trump - you write that President Trump wanted Nancy Pelosi to be speaker after the Democrats won the House and that his plan was to ask the Freedom Caucus - the most conservative members of Congress, who are also his allies - to vote for her. And Trump told you that he thought the most conservative members of Congress would do him a favor and vote for Nancy Pelosi as House speaker. Tell us more about that. That's an interesting and surprising story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Minorly, but not really in a major way. I'd say the one thing Democrats are completely on the same page on is going after President Trump with all the weapons and all the tools they have. Now, there i"}
{"id": "711379453", "date": "2019-04-09", "guest": "Jake Sherman", "title": "Reporters Say Members Of Congress Are 'Obsessed' With Getting Re-Elected", "question_index": 13, "text": "Wait - to Schumer, not to Pelosi, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do think that there is some dynamic between Pelosi and Trump that's hard to capture and hard to explain. It seems like, from our experience both talking to the president and watching him publicly, h"}
{"id": "711379453", "date": "2019-04-09", "guest": "Jake Sherman", "title": "Reporters Say Members Of Congress Are 'Obsessed' With Getting Re-Elected", "question_index": 14, "text": "To both of them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To both of them."}
{"id": "711379453", "date": "2019-04-09", "guest": "Jake Sherman", "title": "Reporters Say Members Of Congress Are 'Obsessed' With Getting Re-Elected", "question_index": 15, "text": "My guests are Jake Sherman and Anna Palmer, senior writers for Politico who co-write the newsletter Politico Playbook. Their new book is called \"The Hill To Die On: The Battle For Congress And The Future Of Trump's America.\" We'll talk more after a break. And Maureen Corrigan will review a new novel by Sally Rooney that was named the Irish novel of the year. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, he wrote the - he wrote Pelosi a note when she became speaker in 2006 saying how great she was and how much he respected her. Again, I'm paraphrasing the president's words, but he sent her a note"}
{"id": "711379453", "date": "2019-04-09", "guest": "Jake Sherman", "title": "Reporters Say Members Of Congress Are 'Obsessed' With Getting Re-Elected", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview about Congress in the Trump era. My guests are Jake Sherman and Anna Palmer. They're senior writers for Politico and co-write the twice-a-day newsletter Politico Playbook. Their new book is titled \"The Hill To Die On: The Battle For Congress And The Future Of Trump's America.\" Let's talk about the role of the Freedom Caucus. You write about the Freedom Caucus a lot in your book. And I should say the Freedom Caucus is basically a far-right Republican caucus within the House. And their role has obviously changed from when the House was run by Republicans to now, when it's run by Democrats. But tell us how they were first created.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, he wrote the - he wrote Pelosi a note when she became speaker in 2006 saying how great she was and how much he respected her. Again, I'm paraphrasing the president's words, but he sent her a note"}
{"id": "711379453", "date": "2019-04-09", "guest": "Jake Sherman", "title": "Reporters Say Members Of Congress Are 'Obsessed' With Getting Re-Elected", "question_index": 17, "text": "What are the tactics that they used during Republican control of the House to block legislation they didn't like and to move legislation further to the right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Freedom Caucus came to be during John Boehner's speakership, and it was started by Jim Jordan and Mark Meadows - Jim Jordan of Ohio, Mark Meadows of North Carolina. And they wanted a small group o"}
{"id": "711379453", "date": "2019-04-09", "guest": "Jake Sherman", "title": "Reporters Say Members Of Congress Are 'Obsessed' With Getting Re-Elected", "question_index": 18, "text": "Did the Freedom Caucus have just enough people to block legislation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One other tactic is they took unrelated bills hostage. They were looking for certain policies on immigration reform, so instead, they starved Republicans of the votes they needed to pass an agricultur"}
{"id": "711379453", "date": "2019-04-09", "guest": "Jake Sherman", "title": "Reporters Say Members Of Congress Are 'Obsessed' With Getting Re-Elected", "question_index": 19, "text": "Now, you write Jim Jordan of the Freedom Caucus craves confrontation. Give us an example of a confrontation that he initiated.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think you can underscore how frustrating it was to Republican leadership that this kind of band of ragtag Republicans that typically would never have been taken seriously would've, you know, g"}
{"id": "711379453", "date": "2019-04-09", "guest": "Jake Sherman", "title": "Reporters Say Members Of Congress Are 'Obsessed' With Getting Re-Elected", "question_index": 20, "text": "Let's talk about Mitch McConnell, the Senate majority leader. And you write, you know, with Congress often in gridlock, the judiciary has become more important. And McConnell's goal is to reshape the federal judiciary. How long has that been his goal?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he was the mastermind behind the December government shutdown, which we know now was the longest government shutdown in American history - lasted more than a month and impacted Americans who wor"}
{"id": "711379453", "date": "2019-04-09", "guest": "Jake Sherman", "title": "Reporters Say Members Of Congress Are 'Obsessed' With Getting Re-Elected", "question_index": 21, "text": "So he has changed some of the rules in order to push through very conservative judges. So what are some of the rules he's changed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Really, when you look at the Republicans and conservatives writ large across the country, the judiciary and the importance of the judiciary has been something that they have been talking about for yea"}
{"id": "711379453", "date": "2019-04-09", "guest": "Jake Sherman", "title": "Reporters Say Members Of Congress Are 'Obsessed' With Getting Re-Elected", "question_index": 22, "text": "One of the things that McConnell recently did was to cut the debate time from 30 hours to two hours for judicial and administrative nominees. What's the significance of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it's most important to note the kind of unwritten rule that he changed back in Obama's years. President Barack Obama nominated Merrick Garland to be a Supreme Court justice when Scalia p"}
{"id": "711379453", "date": "2019-04-09", "guest": "Jake Sherman", "title": "Reporters Say Members Of Congress Are 'Obsessed' With Getting Re-Elected", "question_index": 23, "text": "Do you think McConnell is also thinking, by the time the Democrats have a majority, there will be so many conservative judges who have been appointed, it won't matter that much?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Senate has very arcane rules, to say the least. And it just basically, in layman's terms, allows him to move judges - more judges in a short period of time. Remember; the Senate is home probably o"}
{"id": "711379453", "date": "2019-04-09", "guest": "Jake Sherman", "title": "Reporters Say Members Of Congress Are 'Obsessed' With Getting Re-Elected", "question_index": 24, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guests are Jake Sherman and Anna Palmer. They wrote the new book \"The Hill To Die On: The Battle For Congress And The Future Of Trump's America.\" They cover Congress for Politico where they write The Playbook, which is a twice-a-day newsletter about what's going on on the Hill. We'll be right back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. I mean, I think he's making a gamble to say, I'm going to stack the judiciary as far as he can according to Democrats' perspective. And, you know, he's going to continue that mission. When we sa"}
{"id": "711379453", "date": "2019-04-09", "guest": "Jake Sherman", "title": "Reporters Say Members Of Congress Are 'Obsessed' With Getting Re-Elected", "question_index": 25, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guests are Jake Sherman and Anna Palmer, who cover Congress for Politico. They write the daily newsletter the Playbook. And they also have a new book they've co-authored called \"The Hill To Die On: The Battle For Congress And The Future Of Trump's America.\" How have you seen Congress change in the years that you've been covering it? And that's since 2009 and 2011 to the year or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. I mean, I think he's making a gamble to say, I'm going to stack the judiciary as far as he can according to Democrats' perspective. And, you know, he's going to continue that mission. When we sa"}
{"id": "711379453", "date": "2019-04-09", "guest": "Jake Sherman", "title": "Reporters Say Members Of Congress Are 'Obsessed' With Getting Re-Elected", "question_index": 26, "text": "Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK, sorry."}
{"id": "711379453", "date": "2019-04-09", "guest": "Jake Sherman", "title": "Reporters Say Members Of Congress Are 'Obsessed' With Getting Re-Elected", "question_index": 27, "text": "OK. OK. So what are some of the ways you've seen Congress change in that time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes, sorry."}
{"id": "711379453", "date": "2019-04-09", "guest": "Jake Sherman", "title": "Reporters Say Members Of Congress Are 'Obsessed' With Getting Re-Elected", "question_index": 28, "text": "Now that the Democrats control the House, it seems the people who really watch right now include the heads of some of the committees, like the House Intelligence Committee, Ways and Means, judiciary - the committees that are really investigating President Trump and continuing to investigate Russian interference in the election. So how are you covering them? You know, like Adam Schiff, Jerrold Nadler - they hold a lot of power now, and what they're trying to do could prove to be very significant.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I think Anna's right on the money front. I mean, individual House races - races that are conducted with electorates of five-, 600,000 people are costing tens of millions of dollars, which is just "}
{"id": "711379453", "date": "2019-04-09", "guest": "Jake Sherman", "title": "Reporters Say Members Of Congress Are 'Obsessed' With Getting Re-Elected", "question_index": 29, "text": "I want you to tell a couple of stories about Jared Kushner that you learned that show the ability he thinks he has to fix things and to, like, change how Congress operates for the better.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And also they're sending letters every day. I mean, they're really pressuring the administration. But we also - it's important to keep in mind that everything flows through Nancy Pelosi. She sets the "}
{"id": "711379453", "date": "2019-04-09", "guest": "Jake Sherman", "title": "Reporters Say Members Of Congress Are 'Obsessed' With Getting Re-Elected", "question_index": 30, "text": "Like a lot of other reporters, you reported that President Trump, you know, watches a lot of TV. And if he likes you on TV, he'll make an alliance with you or maybe give you an appointment", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "During the shutdown, during the immigration fight in late 2018, Jared Kushner was not really involved in the immigration policy and not really involved in anything that was going on. And the - as the "}
{"id": "711379453", "date": "2019-04-09", "guest": "Jake Sherman", "title": "Reporters Say Members Of Congress Are 'Obsessed' With Getting Re-Elected", "question_index": 31, "text": ". And so I'm wondering. He sees you on TV probably 'cause you - you're on TV a lot. And has that affected your access to him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "During the shutdown, during the immigration fight in late 2018, Jared Kushner was not really involved in the immigration policy and not really involved in anything that was going on. And the - as the "}
{"id": "711379453", "date": "2019-04-09", "guest": "Jake Sherman", "title": "Reporters Say Members Of Congress Are 'Obsessed' With Getting Re-Elected", "question_index": 32, "text": "All right. I want to thank you both for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think so. I mean, he's acknowledged passively that he has seen us on TV earlier before we started writing this book. So I don't think it's impacted our access to him, but it certainly has impa"}
{"id": "711379453", "date": "2019-04-09", "guest": "Jake Sherman", "title": "Reporters Say Members Of Congress Are 'Obsessed' With Getting Re-Elected", "question_index": 33, "text": "Jake Sherman and Anna Palmer are the authors of the new book \"The Hill To Die On: The Battle For Congress And The Future Of Trump's America.\" They co-write the daily newsletter Politico Playbook. After a break, Maureen Corrigan will review a new novel by Sally Rooney, who's been called the first great millennial author. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "712673652", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Seymour Cassel", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Nominated Character Actor Seymour Cassel", "question_index": 0, "text": "Seymour Cassel, welcome to FRESH AIR. This was kind of like your - your comeback film. Did you and Buscemi hit it off right away?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Happy New Year."}
{"id": "712673652", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Seymour Cassel", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Nominated Character Actor Seymour Cassel", "question_index": 1, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, we did. I mean, I started in this business a long time ago. And in New York, I used to follow people down the street and imitate their walks. And so I can do Steve's walk, you know..."}
{"id": "712673652", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Seymour Cassel", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Nominated Character Actor Seymour Cassel", "question_index": 2, "text": "I assume that Steve Buscemi was a fan of yours before casting you. Did he already know you before meeting you? Did he already know your work...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I - and it sometimes drives people crazy, and sometimes they say, that's not the way I walk. And believe me. I'm pretty good at it. But we hit it off well. I didn't really know him or know his wor"}
{"id": "712673652", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Seymour Cassel", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Nominated Character Actor Seymour Cassel", "question_index": 3, "text": "...Before meeting you in \"In The Soup.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He knew my work."}
{"id": "712673652", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Seymour Cassel", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Nominated Character Actor Seymour Cassel", "question_index": 4, "text": "Yeah, I figured. So before we talk about your work with Cassavetes, I want to talk about your your early - and I mean very early show business career. Although, career is probably not exactly the right word. Your mother was in burlesque on the Minsky circuit when you were...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's a big John Cassavetes fan."}
{"id": "712673652", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Seymour Cassel", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Nominated Character Actor Seymour Cassel", "question_index": 5, "text": "...A child. And it sounds like you toured with her when you were...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "712673652", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Seymour Cassel", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Nominated Character Actor Seymour Cassel", "question_index": 6, "text": "...When you were very young. What was her act like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I toured with her, yeah."}
{"id": "712673652", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Seymour Cassel", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Nominated Character Actor Seymour Cassel", "question_index": 7, "text": "So your mother had a specialty act. Does that mean a specialty strip act?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she was a chorus girl. Then she became a specialty act. And if you know burlesque, Minsky had the main theater here. And he had roadshows. And you'd go from New York to Baltimore to D.C., Kansas"}
{"id": "712673652", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Seymour Cassel", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Nominated Character Actor Seymour Cassel", "question_index": 8, "text": "So what was her specialty?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "712673652", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Seymour Cassel", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Nominated Character Actor Seymour Cassel", "question_index": 9, "text": "Now, your mother got married when you were young to - and your stepfather won a casino in a crap game. This must have been...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, she - she tried dancing with the feathers for a while - you know, the big feather fans. And then she tried a balloon once. But it was just natural for me backstage, you know, chorus girls getting "}
{"id": "712673652", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Seymour Cassel", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Nominated Character Actor Seymour Cassel", "question_index": 10, "text": "That's not - I keep reading this every place. So what...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's not true. He said that."}
{"id": "712673652", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Seymour Cassel", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Nominated Character Actor Seymour Cassel", "question_index": 11, "text": "What happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's true..."}
{"id": "712673652", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Seymour Cassel", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Nominated Character Actor Seymour Cassel", "question_index": 12, "text": "So you were - you were - you were a pretty streetwise kid.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...That's what I was told. I was 9. And I was living in - on 42nd with his mother and sister. He was a master sergeant in the Air Force during World War II, I guess. He'd been in 17 1/2 years. And we "}
{"id": "712673652", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Seymour Cassel", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Nominated Character Actor Seymour Cassel", "question_index": 13, "text": "Cassavetes has been such an influence on independent filmmaking. I mean, he's probably one of the most influential filmmakers in the world of independent film. And he was improvising in movies before that became a popular thing to do. What was his approach to getting the actors to improvise a scene? What were you given before the scene, and how would you work it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, totally. And I'm still a streetwise guy. I mean, when people start to talk trash with me, I say, you don't know I've been there. Snoop Dogg, I did a movie with him. And he started with me. And he "}
{"id": "712673652", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Seymour Cassel", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Nominated Character Actor Seymour Cassel", "question_index": 14, "text": "You had a pretty major part in \"Faces.\" You don't come into the film until around two-thirds of the way in. But then it's a pretty important part. \"Faces\" is about - it's basically about a middle-aged, middle-class, very unhappy couple. So the husband in the couple goes off with Gena Rowlands, who plays a prostitute in it. And his wife goes to the Whiskey A Go Go with her girlfriends. They pick you you up or you pick them up. And you end up going to bed with the wife of this unhappy couple. And she's so miserable by the time, you know, later on about, like, what her life has become that she tries to overdose on sleeping pills.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, John, with \"Shadows\" we would do an improvisation. And John would see where the actors' tendencies and their instincts would take them. Then he would write, you know. But with \"Shadows,\" we woul"}
{"id": "712673652", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Seymour Cassel", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Nominated Character Actor Seymour Cassel", "question_index": 15, "text": "And then you try to revive her.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "712673652", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Seymour Cassel", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Nominated Character Actor Seymour Cassel", "question_index": 16, "text": "Successfully.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do revive her."}
{"id": "712673652", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Seymour Cassel", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Nominated Character Actor Seymour Cassel", "question_index": 17, "text": "And then I want to play the scene that happens right after that, after you've stuck your fingers down her throat to revive her...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "712673652", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Seymour Cassel", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Nominated Character Actor Seymour Cassel", "question_index": 18, "text": "...And kind of slapped...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "712673652", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Seymour Cassel", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Nominated Character Actor Seymour Cassel", "question_index": 19, "text": "...Her awake. You're talking with her, and here's part of that scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To make her throw up, yeah."}
{"id": "712673652", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Seymour Cassel", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Nominated Character Actor Seymour Cassel", "question_index": 20, "text": "That's Seymour Cassel in a scene from John Cassavetes' movie \"Faces.\" Seymour Cassel, tell us a little bit about making that scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Maria, laughing) Uh-huh."}
{"id": "712673652", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Seymour Cassel", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Nominated Character Actor Seymour Cassel", "question_index": 21, "text": "There's so many, like, myths and legends about, you know, the Cassavetes movies and the people who made them and their adventures together making movies and their adventures together off the set. The impression I always get is that there's a lot of, like, partying and drinking that everybody making the movies did together.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2006 interview with character actor Seymour Cassel. He first became noticed for his roles in films by John Cassavetes. He died last Sunday at age 84."}
{"id": "712673652", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Seymour Cassel", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Nominated Character Actor Seymour Cassel", "question_index": 22, "text": "Did any of the partying and drinking interfere with the moviemaking?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in the '50s, that's what people did. Dope wasn't around. Only up in Harlem could you get a nickel - a matchbox of marijuana. But - so we drank, and it was a social - socially accepted. And peopl"}
{"id": "712673652", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Seymour Cassel", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Nominated Character Actor Seymour Cassel", "question_index": 23, "text": "John Cassavetes died in '89 of cirrhosis of the liver. What impact did that have on you? Were you still close then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No. If you got too drunk, we - you know, we would wrap. But, I mean, we didn't drink that much when we worked. We would wait till afterward. John had a basketball court built on his house on Woodr"}
{"id": "712673652", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Seymour Cassel", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Nominated Character Actor Seymour Cassel", "question_index": 24, "text": "Now, I understand that you gave up drinking after he died.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That - it still has an impact on me. I think of him almost every day. I mean, it was the older brother I never had, and it was the closest male friend that I ever had. And he was extremely influential"}
{"id": "712673652", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Seymour Cassel", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Nominated Character Actor Seymour Cassel", "question_index": 25, "text": "Your comeback wasn't long after that. Were the two connected?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. Well, I did it just - when I saw how bad he was, I quit. I quit everything. It was 20 something years ago. But..."}
{"id": "712673652", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Seymour Cassel", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Nominated Character Actor Seymour Cassel", "question_index": 26, "text": "What were you doing? What were you doing...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, probably - people were less fearful of me because I was crazy. I mean, people would have one foot in Dan Tana's in LA and one foot inside the door and one out. What's Seymour going to do now? I "}
{"id": "712673652", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Seymour Cassel", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Nominated Character Actor Seymour Cassel", "question_index": 27, "text": "So you gave up drinking, and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Anything I wanted. I was - you know, when I would get a little drunk, I would just be funny and stupid. And that's what people do when they - they either get stupid and mean, or they get funny and stu"}
{"id": "712673652", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Seymour Cassel", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Nominated Character Actor Seymour Cassel", "question_index": 28, "text": "...That's when you started to make your comeback. You said people were afraid to work with you before that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "712673652", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Seymour Cassel", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Nominated Character Actor Seymour Cassel", "question_index": 29, "text": "And I think it was largely, like, independent filmmakers that you made your comeback with. You know, your first film was \"In The Soup\" that co-starred Steve Buscemi. Wes Anderson, for example, has cast you in three movies - \"Rushmore\"...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was unpredictable."}
{"id": "712673652", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Seymour Cassel", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Nominated Character Actor Seymour Cassel", "question_index": 30, "text": "...\"The Royal Tenenbaums\" and \"The Life Aquatic With Steve Zissou.\" How did he first approach you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Rushmore.\""}
{"id": "712673652", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Seymour Cassel", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Nominated Character Actor Seymour Cassel", "question_index": 31, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was at Sundance when we won - he had a short called \"Bottle Rocket.\" And what impressed me most was his knowledge of film. And I liked the script, and I liked the part. And so after that, he insist"}
{"id": "712673652", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Seymour Cassel", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Nominated Character Actor Seymour Cassel", "question_index": 32, "text": "Your new movie \"Lonesome Jim\" - you play the father in a nuclear family - husband, wife, two sons. And I'm thinking that must be very exotic to you, in a way, because you never really had that kind of nuclear family. Well, I guess maybe you had it as an adult, but you certainly didn't have it as a boy. Does the idea of, like, a real nuclear family seem somewhat exotic to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have already established my hair. He says, well, you could wear a wig. I said, for Christ sake, Wes, you're not the only filmmaker in the world, you know? I'm - why don't I wear a wig here? He said,"}
{"id": "712673652", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Seymour Cassel", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Nominated Character Actor Seymour Cassel", "question_index": 33, "text": "Well, Seymour Cassel, thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it - I thought being as crazy as I was and knowing that very early - I was my own source of entertainment. When I had my own family - and I still do it with my grandchildren - I created the craz"}
{"id": "712682651", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Ray Romano", "title": "Ray Romano On Fame, And Finding His Bearings After 'Raymond' Wrapped", "question_index": 0, "text": "So when David Letterman had you on the show for the first time in 1995, and he...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Can I register something? It's on my way. I'm going that way. I'm just going to go apply for jury duty, that's all. Let me out."}
{"id": "712682651", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Ray Romano", "title": "Ray Romano On Fame, And Finding His Bearings After 'Raymond' Wrapped", "question_index": 1, "text": "...Was so taken with your comedy that he wanted to build a sitcom around you, you must have been shocked.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "712682651", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Ray Romano", "title": "Ray Romano On Fame, And Finding His Bearings After 'Raymond' Wrapped", "question_index": 2, "text": "You know, in watching back your appearance - your last appearance on the Letterman show, you started to tear up. Your voice cracked on that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. They called my house, by the way. I lived in Queens. I was in a small house in Queens. And it was a Saturday. First of all, who's calling your house - what executive producer from the show is ca"}
{"id": "712682651", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Ray Romano", "title": "Ray Romano On Fame, And Finding His Bearings After 'Raymond' Wrapped", "question_index": 3, "text": "You got very emotional because he had, you know, giving you the green light to have a sitcom. I mean, he really changed your life so profoundly. That show was so successful.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I did."}
{"id": "712682651", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Ray Romano", "title": "Ray Romano On Fame, And Finding His Bearings After 'Raymond' Wrapped", "question_index": 4, "text": "Well, that's really interesting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And one of the one of the writers - producers came over with, like, scissors and says, well, you've got to go out - when they introduce you, you've got to go out with your pants cut. And I - we lite"}
{"id": "712682651", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Ray Romano", "title": "Ray Romano On Fame, And Finding His Bearings After 'Raymond' Wrapped", "question_index": 5, "text": "You know what? I'm - here's part of the - how the dynamic might have been different. It would have not only been that, like, you were in on the joke - you know, a part of the clique or whatever. But the audience's first reaction to you would've been like - oh, he's got bony legs or something like that, or, like, doesn't he look funny in those foolish looking shorts that used to be pants a few minutes ago.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "712682651", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Ray Romano", "title": "Ray Romano On Fame, And Finding His Bearings After 'Raymond' Wrapped", "question_index": 6, "text": "And it takes away from thinking - oh, it's a new comic. I wonder what he's going to talk about.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it's distracting. It's distracting."}
{"id": "712682651", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Ray Romano", "title": "Ray Romano On Fame, And Finding His Bearings After 'Raymond' Wrapped", "question_index": 7, "text": "No, I'm not kidding.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know if you're kidding or not, but I think..."}
{"id": "712682651", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Ray Romano", "title": "Ray Romano On Fame, And Finding His Bearings After 'Raymond' Wrapped", "question_index": 8, "text": "No, I mean that sincerely. Like, it would've...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You're absolutely right."}
{"id": "712682651", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Ray Romano", "title": "Ray Romano On Fame, And Finding His Bearings After 'Raymond' Wrapped", "question_index": 9, "text": "...Been so off-topic to distract people into thinking about, like, your bony legs and laughing at that when you had, like, genuine comedy to deliver.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, good. You're..."}
{"id": "712682651", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Ray Romano", "title": "Ray Romano On Fame, And Finding His Bearings After 'Raymond' Wrapped", "question_index": 10, "text": "I didn't mean to assume about your legs", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I want to say two things. One, I have - my bottom half of my legs are..."}
{"id": "712682651", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Ray Romano", "title": "Ray Romano On Fame, And Finding His Bearings After 'Raymond' Wrapped", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I want to say two things. One, I have - my bottom half of my legs are..."}
{"id": "712682651", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Ray Romano", "title": "Ray Romano On Fame, And Finding His Bearings After 'Raymond' Wrapped", "question_index": 12, "text": "Get a load of those gams.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Fantastic. But that might have been distracting - that they're too good looking. But..."}
{"id": "712682651", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Ray Romano", "title": "Ray Romano On Fame, And Finding His Bearings After 'Raymond' Wrapped", "question_index": 13, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I believe that, you know?"}
{"id": "712682651", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Ray Romano", "title": "Ray Romano On Fame, And Finding His Bearings After 'Raymond' Wrapped", "question_index": 14, "text": "Oh, that's funny. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have told this story to other people. And they're like, you would have been fine. Don't worry about it. And then what - a little end to this story is when \"Raymond\" was going off the air - when the "}
{"id": "712682651", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Ray Romano", "title": "Ray Romano On Fame, And Finding His Bearings After 'Raymond' Wrapped", "question_index": 15, "text": "That's great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So that was cool."}
{"id": "712682651", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Ray Romano", "title": "Ray Romano On Fame, And Finding His Bearings After 'Raymond' Wrapped", "question_index": 16, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I believe those kind of things. I'm like, who knows what would have happened, the whole trickle-down effect? Who knows?"}
{"id": "712682651", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Ray Romano", "title": "Ray Romano On Fame, And Finding His Bearings After 'Raymond' Wrapped", "question_index": 17, "text": "So when you started on \"Everybody Loves Raymond,\" the show was - it was kind of billed as like very loosely based on your life - you know, a married man, father of three kids - a daughter and two twin boys and whose parents lived very nearby and who are always kind of showing up and visiting a little too long. And", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2016 interview with comic actor and writer Ray Romano. His first stand-up comedy special in 23 years, \"Ray Romano: Right Here, Around The Corner,\" is now o"}
{"id": "712682651", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Ray Romano", "title": "Ray Romano On Fame, And Finding His Bearings After 'Raymond' Wrapped", "question_index": 18, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2016 interview with comic actor and writer Ray Romano. His first stand-up comedy special in 23 years, \"Ray Romano: Right Here, Around The Corner,\" is now o"}
{"id": "712682651", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Ray Romano", "title": "Ray Romano On Fame, And Finding His Bearings After 'Raymond' Wrapped", "question_index": 19, "text": "...You know, it's kind of interfering with the married life of this couple. Did you have a long talk with your family before the show started and say - you know, to say - hey, people are going to be making assumptions about who you really are based on the characters in the sitcom. Some of those assumptions will be true; some of them will be false. Some of the portrayals are going to be more negative than the way I really feel about you. Or you know, like, what kind of", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "712682651", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Ray Romano", "title": "Ray Romano On Fame, And Finding His Bearings After 'Raymond' Wrapped", "question_index": 20, "text": "- what kind of heart-to-heart did you have?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "712682651", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Ray Romano", "title": "Ray Romano On Fame, And Finding His Bearings After 'Raymond' Wrapped", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". First of all, let me just say that, you know, I - thank God for Phil Rosenthal, who - you know, they hooked me up with Phil Rosenthal, who wrote the pilot script. And we talked about our families to"}
{"id": "712682651", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Ray Romano", "title": "Ray Romano On Fame, And Finding His Bearings After 'Raymond' Wrapped", "question_index": 22, "text": "Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "People spit at me. When Raymond goes, everybody loves Raymond. So I told this story to Phil. And Phil said, oh, that's - we have to use that. We have to use that as the title. And I said, well, please"}
{"id": "712682651", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Ray Romano", "title": "Ray Romano On Fame, And Finding His Bearings After 'Raymond' Wrapped", "question_index": 23, "text": "People taking it at face value, thinking that you think that everybody loves you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "that. It's just asking for trouble."}
{"id": "712682651", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Ray Romano", "title": "Ray Romano On Fame, And Finding His Bearings After 'Raymond' Wrapped", "question_index": 24, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, even if they don't take it at face value, to this day - to this day, someone will start an article with, well, not everybody loves Raymond, and this and that."}
{"id": "712682651", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Ray Romano", "title": "Ray Romano On Fame, And Finding His Bearings After 'Raymond' Wrapped", "question_index": 25, "text": "So what was it like when you started on \"Everybody Loves Raymond\"? You're the star of this network sitcom. And I don't think you'd ever really had an acting job before.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And yeah, but as far as my family, my brother, who was this tough street cop and a real good cop and really dedicated - and the way Brad Garrett was being portrayed - was portraying him - was slightly"}
{"id": "712682651", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Ray Romano", "title": "Ray Romano On Fame, And Finding His Bearings After 'Raymond' Wrapped", "question_index": 26, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And yeah, but as far as my family, my brother, who was this tough street cop and a real good cop and really dedicated - and the way Brad Garrett was being portrayed - was portraying him - was slightly"}
{"id": "712682651", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Ray Romano", "title": "Ray Romano On Fame, And Finding His Bearings After 'Raymond' Wrapped", "question_index": 27, "text": "So everybody's relying on you to be really great in this, and you're, like, not experienced.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "712682651", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Ray Romano", "title": "Ray Romano On Fame, And Finding His Bearings After 'Raymond' Wrapped", "question_index": 28, "text": "I do remember the show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I had - the one experience I had was getting fired from a sitcom. I got fired from \"NewsRadio.\" I don't know if you remember the show \"NewsRadio.\""}
{"id": "712682651", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Ray Romano", "title": "Ray Romano On Fame, And Finding His Bearings After 'Raymond' Wrapped", "question_index": 29, "text": "What was it like for you when you first became famous? It's probably something that you wanted for yourself. But the experience of it might have been very different than what you were expecting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I got to find that dryer. I got to - we got the boys. You know, we all talked about it. Nobody knew. Nobody really knew. We all went in separate directions."}
{"id": "712682651", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Ray Romano", "title": "Ray Romano On Fame, And Finding His Bearings After 'Raymond' Wrapped", "question_index": 30, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, when you say famous, I guess the first time anyone ever recognized me - I was telling my wife about this the other day that I remember exactly when \"Everybody Loves Raymond\" started. I remem"}
{"id": "712682651", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Ray Romano", "title": "Ray Romano On Fame, And Finding His Bearings After 'Raymond' Wrapped", "question_index": 31, "text": "So a question of \"Men Of A Certain Age,\" in which you played 1 of 3 men dealing with middle age, men who'd been friends since college. And you co-created the show. So a lot of people, when they reach middle age, just try to act like they're not. You know, like, people want to seem like they're young forever, whether that means, like, getting surgery or just dressing a certain way or behaving a certain way. And so I think it's great that you decided to, you know, write a show about men who are middle aged and really examine in both dramatic and comic way the range of some of those experiences of reaching midlife. And I'd be interested in hearing, like, why you decided to do it and to do something that had, you know, at least as much, if not more, drama in it than comedy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's all the same, yeah. And this is maybe a negative way to look at it, but I'm just as neurotic if I had never gotten famous or rich. I think I would be equally neurotic because I was neurot"}
{"id": "712682651", "date": "2019-04-12", "guest": "Ray Romano", "title": "Ray Romano On Fame, And Finding His Bearings After 'Raymond' Wrapped", "question_index": 32, "text": "Ray Romano, it's been great to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when \"Raymond\" ended, I was at first very excited - not very excited for it to end, but excited that I was going to, I guess, see what life was like. It was a bit of a cool feeling in the beginn"}
{"id": "715141288", "date": "2019-04-19", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Queen Of Soul Aretha Franklin", "question_index": 0, "text": "Let's talk a little bit about the influences on you during your formative years. Your father, the Reverend C.L. Franklin, he was one of the most popular preachers of his generation. He was nationally known through his tours and through, I think, radio broadcasts as well as recordings. You say in the book that church nurses carried smelling salts to revive worshippers who were overcome to the point of fainting by the Spirit or by your father's sermons. What was it like for you to watch your father speak and people fainting in church?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) What a friend we have in Jesus - all, all, our sins and griefs to bear. What, what a privilege it is to carry everything to God in prayer. Gotta (ph) sing it one more time. What, what a frie"}
{"id": "715141288", "date": "2019-04-19", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Queen Of Soul Aretha Franklin", "question_index": 1, "text": "You toured with your father through churches, through the Deep South. And I'm wondering what it was like for you during the days of segregation to tour through the Deep South - you know, how that compared to what you were used to in Detroit.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was tremendous. I loved going to church. But as a young girl, I certainly enjoyed watching and listening to my dad."}
{"id": "715141288", "date": "2019-04-19", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Queen Of Soul Aretha Franklin", "question_index": 2, "text": "Many singers who grew up in the church weren't allowed by their parents to listen to or to perform pop music. It wasn't that way in your family. What did your father think about pop music and jazz?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it certainly was not what I was used to or accustomed to in Detroit. There were times that we were asked to go to the back of the restaurant, say, or we couldn't use the bathrooms. We got inform"}
{"id": "715141288", "date": "2019-04-19", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Queen Of Soul Aretha Franklin", "question_index": 3, "text": "Well, as you describe in your new autobiography, great performers like Nat Cole and Art Tatum knew your father and would sometimes be in your living room at the piano. That must have been something.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My dad, I think, appreciated gifted artists. We just didn't have that problem in our home. \"Rockin' With Leroy\" used to come on when I would come in from school. It was a very, very big R&B broadc"}
{"id": "715141288", "date": "2019-04-19", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Queen Of Soul Aretha Franklin", "question_index": 4, "text": "Now, you were friends with Sam Cooke - the great gospel-singer-turned-soul-singer. How did you meet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Darling, you send me - darling, you send me - darling, you send me - honest you do - honest you do - honest you do - whoa, oh, oh, you thrill me. Darling, you thrill me. Baby, you - you thri"}
{"id": "715141288", "date": "2019-04-19", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Queen Of Soul Aretha Franklin", "question_index": 5, "text": "Well, now, he crossed over from gospel to pop before you did. What impact did it have on you when you heard him having a hit pop song on the radio?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sam and I met at a Sunday evening program that we had at our church back in the early '50s, and I was sitting there waiting for the program to start after church. And I just happened to look back over"}
{"id": "715141288", "date": "2019-04-19", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Queen Of Soul Aretha Franklin", "question_index": 6, "text": "So did that make you think, maybe I should consider making pop records?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We were going down the highway. We were somewhere in the South. And my sister and I, and the driver and maybe one or two other people in the car - we knew that he had left the gospel field. And, of co"}
{"id": "715141288", "date": "2019-04-19", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Queen Of Soul Aretha Franklin", "question_index": 7, "text": "In 1966, after your contract with Columbia Records was up, you moved to Atlantic Records, which was the home of rhythm and blues greats like The Drifters, The Clovers, Ruth Brown and Ray Charles. The producer Jerry Wexler took you down to a studio in Muscle Shoals, Ala., that was famous for its great session men - which included Dan Penn and Spooner Oldham. Now, Spooner Oldham tells a story that when he heard you sit down at the piano and play your first chord, he thought, wow, that's really great, and that he who - and he's a pianist - that he should let you play piano while he moved over to electric piano playing behind you. Were you pleased that he agreed that you should be the one at the piano?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't know at the time. I don't think that was my feeling, and it wasn't to begin with. I was interested in changing fields as well, but I was not as confident, I guess, as Sam was to begin wi"}
{"id": "716793221", "date": "2019-04-24", "guest": "Anne Harrington", "title": "'Mind Fixers' Documents The 'Troubled Search' For Mental Illness Medication", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The search for a biological understanding of mental illness, including schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, depression and panic disorder, is the subject of the new book, \"Mind Fixers,\" by my guest, Anne Harrington. She writes about the revolution in medications to treat mental illness and why it's left behind what she describes as an unsatisfactory legacy of overdiagnosis, overmedication and promises that were unfulfilled. Harrington is a professor of the history of science at Harvard and director of undergraduate studies in the history of science. She specializes in the history of psychiatry, neuroscience, and other mind and behavioral sciences. For six years, she directed Harvard's Mind, Brain and Behavior Initiative. Anne Harrington, welcome to FRESH AIR. Let's talk a little bit about depression and antidepressants.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "716793221", "date": "2019-04-24", "guest": "Anne Harrington", "title": "'Mind Fixers' Documents The 'Troubled Search' For Mental Illness Medication", "question_index": 1, "text": "I think the real game-changer here was probably Prozac in the 1980s; that became a hugely popular drug. And what was groundbreaking at the time, when Prozac came onto the market?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "716793221", "date": "2019-04-24", "guest": "Anne Harrington", "title": "'Mind Fixers' Documents The 'Troubled Search' For Mental Illness Medication", "question_index": 2, "text": "So why does the patient pool grow?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the irony of Prozac's blockbuster success was that its manufacturer, Eli Lilly, didn't really expect much from it. So Prozac goes on the market, and because it's been framed as safer, people start "}
{"id": "716793221", "date": "2019-04-24", "guest": "Anne Harrington", "title": "'Mind Fixers' Documents The 'Troubled Search' For Mental Illness Medication", "question_index": 3, "text": "So you've got a lot going on there. You've got this new drug, Prozac, that's supposed to, you know, address depression. You've got patients with anxiety who are being recategorized as having depression with anxiety as a kind of side effect of the depression. They're getting prescribed Prozac, too. And at the same time, you have new literature coming out, like, \"Listening To Prozac,\" the bestselling book by Peter Kramer, that asks the question, you know, like, if Prozac is so effective and it's basically remaking people's mood and mental health and changing them, like, what does that mean if people can be changed by pills, even if it's change for the better? Like, existentially, what does that mean? But in the long run, how effective was Prozac, or is Prozac?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, because patient - there had been an enormous market for anti-anxiety medications. And Valium, in the 1970s, became - was at that point - in, like, 1978, I think there was something like - 2.2 bi"}
{"id": "716793221", "date": "2019-04-24", "guest": "Anne Harrington", "title": "'Mind Fixers' Documents The 'Troubled Search' For Mental Illness Medication", "question_index": 4, "text": "Do you think those drugs are getting prescribed as frequently or perhaps more frequently than they were in the '80s, when Prozac was new and was seen as - and this, like, groundbreaking drug?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The huge developments that happen in the story of depression and the antidepressants happens in the late '90s, when a range of different studies increasingly seemed to suggest that these antidepressan"}
{"id": "716793221", "date": "2019-04-24", "guest": "Anne Harrington", "title": "'Mind Fixers' Documents The 'Troubled Search' For Mental Illness Medication", "question_index": 5, "text": "In writing about the biology of mental illness and the drugs that have been created to address it, you write some about the marketing of those drugs. And let's look at one of the really successful marketing campaigns, and that would be for Xanax, which was approved by the FDA in 1981. And that coincided with the end of the diagnosis of anxiety neurosis and the addition in the DSM of the diagnosis of panic disorder.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there was a glamour moment. We became a Prozac nation. Peter Kramer contributed to the - I think unintentionally, because his goal was actually to be rather critical rather than celebratory of w"}
{"id": "716793221", "date": "2019-04-24", "guest": "Anne Harrington", "title": "'Mind Fixers' Documents The 'Troubled Search' For Mental Illness Medication", "question_index": 6, "text": "So how is Xanax marketed to tie in to this new diagnosis of panic disorder?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm hmm."}
{"id": "716793221", "date": "2019-04-24", "guest": "Anne Harrington", "title": "'Mind Fixers' Documents The 'Troubled Search' For Mental Illness Medication", "question_index": 7, "text": "So you had mentioned that the market for Valium had collapsed before the release of Xanax. Why was the market for Valium collapsing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Xanax was originally going to be the next generation to valium. It's being tested and developed several decades before it finally gets FDA approval. In the interim, the market for drugs - benzodiaz"}
{"id": "716793221", "date": "2019-04-24", "guest": "Anne Harrington", "title": "'Mind Fixers' Documents The 'Troubled Search' For Mental Illness Medication", "question_index": 8, "text": "Is Xanax less addictive than Valium?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because the growing recognition that benzodiazepines were highly addictive - there were a number of very high-profile kinds of cases - including Betty Ford, the wife of the president - of people who p"}
{"id": "716793221", "date": "2019-04-24", "guest": "Anne Harrington", "title": "'Mind Fixers' Documents The 'Troubled Search' For Mental Illness Medication", "question_index": 9, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Anne Harrington. She's the author of the new book \"Mind Fixers: Psychiatry's Troubled Search For The Biology Of Mental Illness.\" We'll be right back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Good question. I don't know 'cause I'm not a clinician, but I can say that I - you know, you are now beginning to see some of the kinds of conversations about drugs like Xanax that you saw about drugs"}
{"id": "716793221", "date": "2019-04-24", "guest": "Anne Harrington", "title": "'Mind Fixers' Documents The 'Troubled Search' For Mental Illness Medication", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Anne Harrington, author of the new book \"Mind Fixers: Psychiatry's Troubled Search For The Biology Of Mental Illness.\" She's a professor of the history of science at Harvard. Let's talk about bipolar syndrome, which has its roots as a diagnosis in what was called manic depression. So, like, what is the difference between manic depression and bipolar? Are they the same thing, just renamed, or are they two separate diagnoses?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Good question. I don't know 'cause I'm not a clinician, but I can say that I - you know, you are now beginning to see some of the kinds of conversations about drugs like Xanax that you saw about drugs"}
{"id": "716793221", "date": "2019-04-24", "guest": "Anne Harrington", "title": "'Mind Fixers' Documents The 'Troubled Search' For Mental Illness Medication", "question_index": 11, "text": "What was it about the words manic depression that sounded more frightening than bipolar disorder?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Some people use the term more or less interchangeably. The term manic depression was widely used until the 1980s to describe a form of mood disorder that classically involved cycling between experienc"}
{"id": "716793221", "date": "2019-04-24", "guest": "Anne Harrington", "title": "'Mind Fixers' Documents The 'Troubled Search' For Mental Illness Medication", "question_index": 12, "text": "So I think the first drug that was used to treat manic depression was lithium, which you write was previously marketed as a health tonic. That amazed me when I read it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think man - mania and the maniac and - you know, it invoked sort of wild-eye, potentially violent forms of behavior, and that was not at all the kind of message that an advocacy organization w"}
{"id": "716793221", "date": "2019-04-24", "guest": "Anne Harrington", "title": "'Mind Fixers' Documents The 'Troubled Search' For Mental Illness Medication", "question_index": 13, "text": "7UP had lithium in it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Really? The first thing to know about lithium to understand its strange place in the history of psychiatry is that unlike all the other drugs, it wasn't invented in a laboratory. It's an element. It's"}
{"id": "716793221", "date": "2019-04-24", "guest": "Anne Harrington", "title": "'Mind Fixers' Documents The 'Troubled Search' For Mental Illness Medication", "question_index": 14, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "7UP had lithium in it, and there's - no one quite knows for sure why Griggs (ph), the inventor of this soft drink - it had a very convoluted previous name. But it was renamed 7UP, and some think that "}
{"id": "716793221", "date": "2019-04-24", "guest": "Anne Harrington", "title": "'Mind Fixers' Documents The 'Troubled Search' For Mental Illness Medication", "question_index": 15, "text": "So is lithium still, like, a drug of choice for treating patients with bipolar disorder?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But there was this previous history of lithium. And then lithium sort of fortunes as a product, and it's used in all sorts of other things too that have nothing to do with, you know, the health indust"}
{"id": "716793221", "date": "2019-04-24", "guest": "Anne Harrington", "title": "'Mind Fixers' Documents The 'Troubled Search' For Mental Illness Medication", "question_index": 16, "text": "So lithium was taken off the market as a salt substitute because of its side effects. But then, you know, lithium as a drug to treat manic depression or bipolar disorder, is it still seen as having the harmful side effects, possibly cardiac side effects?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think there are a lot of people who say it's a very good drug. And there are some people who still take lithium. The problem with lithium - and I use the word problem, you know, it's not a problem f"}
{"id": "716793221", "date": "2019-04-24", "guest": "Anne Harrington", "title": "'Mind Fixers' Documents The 'Troubled Search' For Mental Illness Medication", "question_index": 17, "text": "My guest is Anne Harrington, author of the new book \"Mind Fixers: Psychiatry's Troubled Search For The Biology Of Mental Illness.\" We'll talk more after a break. We'll also hear Maureen Corrigan's review of Janny Scott's memoir about growing up in a wealthy, mainline family in Philadelphia. Her grandmother was said to be the inspiration for Katharine Hepburn's character in the film \"The Philadelphia Story.\" And linguist Geoff Nunberg will talk about a word we're hearing a lot now - socialism. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think what does happen is that people incorporate a recognition that there is this risk, and there's - then people on lithium undergo regular blood monitoring and then adjustment of their dose"}
{"id": "716793221", "date": "2019-04-24", "guest": "Anne Harrington", "title": "'Mind Fixers' Documents The 'Troubled Search' For Mental Illness Medication", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to our interview about the search for a biological understanding of mental illness and for drugs to treat it. My guest is Harvard professor Anne Harrington, author of the book \"Mind Fixers.\" So your book is about, basically, like, the history of pharmaceutical treatment for mental health disorders. And at the end of the book, you say that you think a lot of pharmaceutical companies have been leaving the psychiatric field. And I was very surprised to read that because it seems like just about everybody is on something...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think what does happen is that people incorporate a recognition that there is this risk, and there's - then people on lithium undergo regular blood monitoring and then adjustment of their dose"}
{"id": "716793221", "date": "2019-04-24", "guest": "Anne Harrington", "title": "'Mind Fixers' Documents The 'Troubled Search' For Mental Illness Medication", "question_index": 19, "text": "...Right now. And why would pharmaceutical companies be leaving when so many people are on antidepressants or treatment for bipolar disorder, you know, not to mention antipsychotics? And it's hard to get off of many of these drugs, so once you're on it, you, like, tend to stay on them. So why would pharmaceutical companies be leaving?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "716793221", "date": "2019-04-24", "guest": "Anne Harrington", "title": "'Mind Fixers' Documents The 'Troubled Search' For Mental Illness Medication", "question_index": 20, "text": "The drugs don't seem to get better results than people getting a placebo.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because there's been no new good ideas as to where to look for new, novel biomarkers or targets since the 1960s. The only possible exception is there is now some excitement about ketamine, which targe"}
{"id": "716793221", "date": "2019-04-24", "guest": "Anne Harrington", "title": "'Mind Fixers' Documents The 'Troubled Search' For Mental Illness Medication", "question_index": 21, "text": "You know, in talking about a new drug has to beat the placebo in test trials in order to be approved by the FDA...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right, but it doesn't mean that the drugs don't work. It just means that the placebo effect is really strong. But the logic of clinical trials is that the placebo effect is nothing, and you hav"}
{"id": "716793221", "date": "2019-04-24", "guest": "Anne Harrington", "title": "'Mind Fixers' Documents The 'Troubled Search' For Mental Illness Medication", "question_index": 22, "text": "...I'd love to hear more research about the placebo effect. It obviously exists.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep."}
{"id": "716793221", "date": "2019-04-24", "guest": "Anne Harrington", "title": "'Mind Fixers' Documents The 'Troubled Search' For Mental Illness Medication", "question_index": 23, "text": "We should find a way of harnessing it better", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep."}
{"id": "716793221", "date": "2019-04-24", "guest": "Anne Harrington", "title": "'Mind Fixers' Documents The 'Troubled Search' For Mental Illness Medication", "question_index": 24, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep."}
{"id": "716793221", "date": "2019-04-24", "guest": "Anne Harrington", "title": "'Mind Fixers' Documents The 'Troubled Search' For Mental Illness Medication", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well, you'd be lying to them. You'd be telling them it's a drug when it's not.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I agree with that. Before I wrote \"Mind Fixers,\" I'd spent quite a bit of time being interested in the placebo effect as a really interesting and understudied and under-theorized entity in its o"}
{"id": "716793221", "date": "2019-04-24", "guest": "Anne Harrington", "title": "'Mind Fixers' Documents The 'Troubled Search' For Mental Illness Medication", "question_index": 26, "text": "So you teach at Harvard, and you've been teaching how many years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's - some people say, oh, you can get around that by telling people that, you know, we found these drugs - this is a drug with no side effects because it's got no active ingredients, and we "}
{"id": "716793221", "date": "2019-04-24", "guest": "Anne Harrington", "title": "'Mind Fixers' Documents The 'Troubled Search' For Mental Illness Medication", "question_index": 27, "text": "So in that time - I doubt you ask students if they're on medication, but maybe there's a way you can kind of get a sense of that - do you think that the number of students on various mental health and anti-anxiety disorder medications has increased or decreased over time? And do you think attitudes among your students, you know, have changed about those medications?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, over 20."}
{"id": "716793221", "date": "2019-04-24", "guest": "Anne Harrington", "title": "'Mind Fixers' Documents The 'Troubled Search' For Mental Illness Medication", "question_index": 28, "text": "So are you saying that there's times in the lives of the students where they benefit from medication, even though they don't have, like, a diagnosed disorder?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I have both been teaching at Harvard for over 20 years with teaching large undergraduate courses, including courses on the history of psychiatry, so I get a lot of students who come with histories."}
{"id": "716793221", "date": "2019-04-24", "guest": "Anne Harrington", "title": "'Mind Fixers' Documents The 'Troubled Search' For Mental Illness Medication", "question_index": 29, "text": "Anne Harrington, I want to thank you for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But let me try to say this carefully because it's important. A person can be depressed. A person can be hugely anxious. And the reasons that a person is deeply depressed or hugely anxious sometimes is"}
{"id": "716793221", "date": "2019-04-24", "guest": "Anne Harrington", "title": "'Mind Fixers' Documents The 'Troubled Search' For Mental Illness Medication", "question_index": 30, "text": "Anne Harrington is the author of the new book \"Mind Fixers.\" After we take a short break, Maureen Corrigan will review a new memoir by Janny Scott about growing up in a wealthy Philadelphia family. It's called \"The Beneficiary: Fortune, Misfortune And The Story Of My Father.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much for having me. I really appreciated the chance."}
{"id": "717124376", "date": "2019-04-25", "guest": "Rosalind Helderman", "title": "Mueller Report Shows How Witnesses, Messaging Apps Stymied Investigation", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're going to talk about the Mueller report with Rosalind Helderman. She is a Washington Post investigative reporter for the paper's national political staff. And she broke several key stories about Russia's interference in the election and connections between Russians and the Trump campaign and administration. She co-wrote the commentary and analysis accompanying The Washington Post's publication of the report, which has been published as a paperback and e-book. Rosalind Helderman, welcome to FRESH AIR. Since most of your reporting has been about the Russian interference in the election and ties between the Trump campaign, the Trump administration and Russia. Let's look at a news story you learned from the Mueller investigation. The story that wasn't known before has to do with a Russian businessman named Petr Aven. Tell us that story.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "717124376", "date": "2019-04-25", "guest": "Rosalind Helderman", "title": "Mueller Report Shows How Witnesses, Messaging Apps Stymied Investigation", "question_index": 1, "text": "And didn't Putin also imply that there would be consequences if his oligarchs didn't make connections with the Trump team?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. This is really interesting. So this apparently happens after the election and, you know, one of the things the report points out - which is worth contemplating as we think about this whole subje"}
{"id": "717124376", "date": "2019-04-25", "guest": "Rosalind Helderman", "title": "Mueller Report Shows How Witnesses, Messaging Apps Stymied Investigation", "question_index": 2, "text": "So what's the importance of this revelation from the Mueller report?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, exactly. Aven indicated that, you know, that was part of his understanding that this was something he really had to try because Putin had indicated that there would be some kind of consequences f"}
{"id": "717124376", "date": "2019-04-25", "guest": "Rosalind Helderman", "title": "Mueller Report Shows How Witnesses, Messaging Apps Stymied Investigation", "question_index": 3, "text": "So in terms of the soft back channels that Putin wanted to create, we've seen a lot of examples of that in the Mueller report and, of course, in the reporting that a journalist like yourself have done.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would say it's twofold. First of all, I think it shows the ways in which Putin sort of understood that, having worked hard to help Donald Trump get elected, that he now believed there should be a wa"}
{"id": "717124376", "date": "2019-04-25", "guest": "Rosalind Helderman", "title": "Mueller Report Shows How Witnesses, Messaging Apps Stymied Investigation", "question_index": 4, "text": "That's a meeting that has been talked about a lot, and people have been wondering, what was that really about? What went on there? What did we learn from the Mueller report about what actually went on at that meeting in the Seychelles?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's right. And, you know, right after the report tells us about Petr Aven, it goes on to explain this long and interesting episode that happens during the presidential transition involving th"}
{"id": "717124376", "date": "2019-04-25", "guest": "Rosalind Helderman", "title": "Mueller Report Shows How Witnesses, Messaging Apps Stymied Investigation", "question_index": 5, "text": "So what Mueller is reporting is different from what Bannon and Prince testified.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. We learned a lot new. I mean, this is a really good example of a moment in the report where they take on an issue that has been reported on a lot, and yet they found a lot of new information abo"}
{"id": "717124376", "date": "2019-04-25", "guest": "Rosalind Helderman", "title": "Mueller Report Shows How Witnesses, Messaging Apps Stymied Investigation", "question_index": 6, "text": "So we know some people are saying - well, the report says there's nothing to see here in terms of, you know, conspiracy. But what - the Mueller report is saying, we had access to a limited amount of information. And then there's things we just can't see. They're too opaque because of encryption; they're too opaque because people were lying or not speaking. So you know, Mueller even concludes at the end that, as we find out more information, his conclusions might change.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's right. And what they say is that they sort of acknowledge that the accounts of this episode that come from Erik Prince and Steve Bannon are very different. But they say that they ultimate"}
{"id": "717124376", "date": "2019-04-25", "guest": "Rosalind Helderman", "title": "Mueller Report Shows How Witnesses, Messaging Apps Stymied Investigation", "question_index": 7, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Rosalind Helderman of The Washington Post. She's an investigative reporter for the national political staff. And she's the co-author of the commentary and analysis that accompanies The Washington Post's publication of the Mueller report, which has already been published. So we'll be right back after we take this short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's right. I mean - you know, he describes each of these episodes. And then there's sort of an analysis in which, for each of them, he describes that they concluded that the evidence did not "}
{"id": "717124376", "date": "2019-04-25", "guest": "Rosalind Helderman", "title": "Mueller Report Shows How Witnesses, Messaging Apps Stymied Investigation", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, we're talking about the Mueller report with Rosalind Helderman. And she is at The Washington Post, where she is an investigative reporter for the national political staff. The Washington Post published a copy of the Mueller report, and she co-wrote the commentary and analysis accompanying the report. And this edition of the report has already been published. So President Trump dismissed the reporting that journalists were doing as fake news. Was your reporting affirmed by the Mueller report?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's right. I mean - you know, he describes each of these episodes. And then there's sort of an analysis in which, for each of them, he describes that they concluded that the evidence did not "}
{"id": "717124376", "date": "2019-04-25", "guest": "Rosalind Helderman", "title": "Mueller Report Shows How Witnesses, Messaging Apps Stymied Investigation", "question_index": 9, "text": "There are many redactions - color-coded redactions in the Mueller report. What were the most frustrating redactions for you - where, you know, you're getting to something interesting. And all of a sudden, it's blacked out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I do feel like our reporting was affirmed by the Mueller report. You know, I think when you look across the span of the two to three years of reporting that have gone on on this subject, there h"}
{"id": "717124376", "date": "2019-04-25", "guest": "Rosalind Helderman", "title": "Mueller Report Shows How Witnesses, Messaging Apps Stymied Investigation", "question_index": 10, "text": "Do the redactions offer clues about what you should be investigating?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think the ones that are most frustrating are the ones that indicate that they've been redacted for possible harm to an ongoing matter - HOM is the abbreviation they use in the report; we've be"}
{"id": "717124376", "date": "2019-04-25", "guest": "Rosalind Helderman", "title": "Mueller Report Shows How Witnesses, Messaging Apps Stymied Investigation", "question_index": 11, "text": "Were there restrictions on Mueller that you hadn't known about until the release of the report?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Maybe. Maybe they do. You know, there's this appendix at the back where we learned that the - Mueller's team apparently referred 14 separate possible criminal matters to other U.S. attorney's offices "}
{"id": "717124376", "date": "2019-04-25", "guest": "Rosalind Helderman", "title": "Mueller Report Shows How Witnesses, Messaging Apps Stymied Investigation", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, another thing with Trump's written answers to prosecutors - he wrote that he didn't recall or didn't remember or - to about 37 questions. And I should note he'd previously bragged about having the greatest memory.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not necessarily that I can tell. We do learn a lot more, though, about his efforts to get an interview with the president of the United States, which certainly seems like a big hole in the report. The"}
{"id": "717124376", "date": "2019-04-25", "guest": "Rosalind Helderman", "title": "Mueller Report Shows How Witnesses, Messaging Apps Stymied Investigation", "question_index": 13, "text": "My guest is Rosalind Helderman, an investigative reporter for The Washington Post. She wrote the commentary and analysis for the Post's publication of the Mueller report, which is available as a paperback or e-book. We'll talk more after a break. And Justin Chang will review \"Avengers: Endgame,\" the climactic 22nd film in this Marvel series. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's absolutely true. And, I mean, let's be clear when we say he wrote. He did not write. I would encourage people to - well, I would encourage people to read the whole report. I think it's a "}
{"id": "717124376", "date": "2019-04-25", "guest": "Rosalind Helderman", "title": "Mueller Report Shows How Witnesses, Messaging Apps Stymied Investigation", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to our interview about the Mueller report with Rosalind Helderman, a Washington Post investigative reporter for the paper's national staff. She broke several key stories about Russia's interference in the election and the connections between Russians and the Trump campaign and administration. She co-wrote the commentary and analysis accompanying the Washington Post publication of the report, which has been published as a paperback and e-book. So the House Intelligence Committee is continuing to investigate President Trump, the Trump campaign, Trump administration connections to Russia and related things. Adam Schiff, who chairs - he's a Democrat, and he chairs the House Intelligence Committee. And I should also mention here that they're asking for an unredacted copy of the Mueller report. So Schiff, who chairs the House Intelligence Committee, published an op-ed in your paper, The Washington Post, this week. And I want to quote a few lines from it because I'd really be interested in your reaction. He writes, as I read the report, I was struck by how much was missing - the enormous counterintelligence and national security risks and ramifications of the president's conduct and those around him. The special counsel's investigation began as a counterintelligence investigation by the FBI into an attack by a hostile foreign power, yet the report describes the counterintelligence component only in a single paragraph. I'm wondering if that struck you, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's absolutely true. And, I mean, let's be clear when we say he wrote. He did not write. I would encourage people to - well, I would encourage people to read the whole report. I think it's a "}
{"id": "717124376", "date": "2019-04-25", "guest": "Rosalind Helderman", "title": "Mueller Report Shows How Witnesses, Messaging Apps Stymied Investigation", "question_index": 15, "text": "So questions you just raise that were outside of the scope of the Mueller investigation were, was Trump and his administration's actions immoral, unethical? Did they present security risks? And we know whether or not the president conspired with Russia, or whether or not his team conspired with Russia, the president was very dismissive of any information showing that Russia interfered with the election. President Trump seemed to do, like, nothing to try to investigate that or stop that from happening again, bolster our security against that and similar cyberattacks from hostile foreign powers. So this was outside of the scope of the Mueller investigation. So who gets to weigh in on these questions? Is it Congress? Is that a question for impeachment proceedings? Like, who decides the answers to those questions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I was struck in general by what was and was not in the report. And I think it's important to remember that these were prosecutors. They had a very specific and, in some ways, narrow task. Their "}
{"id": "717124376", "date": "2019-04-25", "guest": "Rosalind Helderman", "title": "Mueller Report Shows How Witnesses, Messaging Apps Stymied Investigation", "question_index": 16, "text": "So one of the things you reported on before the Mueller report came out was the Trump Tower meeting in which - what led to the meeting was that Don Jr. was tipped off that if he met with this Russian lawyer, Natalia Veselnitskaya, that she would have dirt on Hillary Clinton. Don Jr. responded, if it's what you say, I love it. So the way the Trump administration tried to present this meeting was that, well, this meeting was about the Russian adoption laws, which were controversial, and sanctions 'cause Putin wanted sanctions lifted. And everybody was trying to investigate, what was this meeting really about? So what did you learn from the Mueller report about what actually happened at this meeting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, honestly, ultimately, it's the American public. It's the public that has to decide what they think of this. I mean, yes, there's obviously a role for Congress. There's particularly a sort of a"}
{"id": "717124376", "date": "2019-04-25", "guest": "Rosalind Helderman", "title": "Mueller Report Shows How Witnesses, Messaging Apps Stymied Investigation", "question_index": 17, "text": "So Don Jr.'s willingness to meet with Russians, an adversarial foreign power, to get dirt on his father's opponent in the presidential campaign - I mean, you're not supposed to do that with an adversarial foreign power or with any foreign power. So why did Mueller conclude that that wasn't a crime?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And this is an area where I think the report basically confirmed public reporting, and also Congress has actually dug into this quite a bit. And so there were no huge surprises about the Trump T"}
{"id": "717124376", "date": "2019-04-25", "guest": "Rosalind Helderman", "title": "Mueller Report Shows How Witnesses, Messaging Apps Stymied Investigation", "question_index": 18, "text": "So, in that respect, Don Jr.'s possible ignorance of the law helped prevent him from being charged with a crime.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, they are never going to be able to erase from history that, if it's what you say, I love it, email. Right? I mean, the email he received was as clear as could be about what he was being "}
{"id": "717124376", "date": "2019-04-25", "guest": "Rosalind Helderman", "title": "Mueller Report Shows How Witnesses, Messaging Apps Stymied Investigation", "question_index": 19, "text": "So Don Jr. did not testify. He declined to testify. So I guess he wasn't subpoenaed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's right. I mean, there are various areas of the code where ignorance of the law actually is a defense because a prosecutor has to be able to show that you're knowing and willful to prove a "}
{"id": "717124376", "date": "2019-04-25", "guest": "Rosalind Helderman", "title": "Mueller Report Shows How Witnesses, Messaging Apps Stymied Investigation", "question_index": 20, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us my guest is Rosalind Helderman. She's at The Washington Post, where she's an investigative reporter for the national political staff. And she co-wrote the commentary and analysis that accompanies The Washington Post's publication of the Mueller report, which is available now. We're going to take a short break and be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm not so sure about that. The report does indicate that he declined a voluntary interview. And then there's another sentence that follows that sentence that's been redacted as grand jury mater"}
{"id": "717124376", "date": "2019-04-25", "guest": "Rosalind Helderman", "title": "Mueller Report Shows How Witnesses, Messaging Apps Stymied Investigation", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, we're talking about the Mueller report with Rosalind Helderman, a reporter for The Washington Post. She's an investigative reporter for the national political staff. And she co-wrote the commentary and analysis that accompanies The Washington Post's publication of the Mueller report. Jared Kushner said, this week, that Russia's interference in our election was basically a couple of Facebook ads and that the Mueller investigation itself did more damage to the U.S. than what the Russians did to our election. As someone who has been reporting on this for so long, what was your reaction when you heard that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm not so sure about that. The report does indicate that he declined a voluntary interview. And then there's another sentence that follows that sentence that's been redacted as grand jury mater"}
{"id": "717124376", "date": "2019-04-25", "guest": "Rosalind Helderman", "title": "Mueller Report Shows How Witnesses, Messaging Apps Stymied Investigation", "question_index": 22, "text": "But that's one of the really hard things to understand about this whole story. Why has President Trump and the people close to him denied the importance of Russia's interference in our democracy? I mean, well, an explanation is that President Trump thinks that that makes it seem like he didn't, like, legitimately win the election and that it undermines his presidency. But it's just so hard to understand why there's so much evidence of Russia's interference. And the president, people close to him, have been so dismissive of that evidence.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I found that incredibly striking. First of all, it ignores the fact that Mueller's prosecutors actually charged two separate crimes. It was not just a couple of Facebook ads. There was also the "}
{"id": "717124376", "date": "2019-04-25", "guest": "Rosalind Helderman", "title": "Mueller Report Shows How Witnesses, Messaging Apps Stymied Investigation", "question_index": 23, "text": "One of the stories you helped break for The Washington Post was the meeting at a New York cigar bar near Trump Tower during the campaign between Paul Manafort - this was in August of 2016, when Manafort was still the head of the Trump campaign. And so it was a meeting between Manafort, his business associate Rick Gates and Konstantin Kilimnik, a Russian-Ukrainian political consultant who worked with Manafort when Manafort was working on the campaign of Viktor Yanukovych, who was elected Ukraine's president, became a very authoritarian president. Manafort worked with Yanukovych for several years. U.S. intelligence thought that Konstantin Kilimnik had ties to Russian intelligence. So tell us a bit about what you reported about this meeting when you helped break the story, and then we'll compare it to what the Mueller report has to say.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And that's a question - not in exactly that way, but we do get some insight into it from the report itself because, you know, they spend quite a lot of time, as they're analyzing the questions o"}
{"id": "717124376", "date": "2019-04-25", "guest": "Rosalind Helderman", "title": "Mueller Report Shows How Witnesses, Messaging Apps Stymied Investigation", "question_index": 24, "text": "What did you learn that you didn't already know about this meeting from the Mueller report?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this is one of those moments in the report where there's been so much public discussion about it that it's easy to sort of forget just how incredibly stunning it would have been for us to have l"}
{"id": "717124376", "date": "2019-04-25", "guest": "Rosalind Helderman", "title": "Mueller Report Shows How Witnesses, Messaging Apps Stymied Investigation", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well, Rosalind Helderman, thank you so much for talking with us, and thank you for your reporting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, some details about the Ukraine peace plan - just exactly what it was and how Paul Manafort understood it to be. I think we also learned just how extensive the effort was by Manafort to provide i"}
{"id": "717124376", "date": "2019-04-25", "guest": "Rosalind Helderman", "title": "Mueller Report Shows How Witnesses, Messaging Apps Stymied Investigation", "question_index": 26, "text": "Rosalind Helderman is an investigative reporter for The Washington Post. She wrote the commentary and analysis for the Post's publication of the Mueller report, which is available as a paperback or e-book. After we take a short break, Justin Chang will review \"Avengers: Endgame.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me."}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The Mueller investigation gave us insights into how Paul Manafort and his business partner, Rick Gates, hid their ill-gotten money with the help of shell companies and real estate, protecting it from the reach of the law, until the investigation. Crooks, oligarchs, kleptocrats and some of the superrich from around the world use this transnational shadow system of shell companies and real estate to stash their money. My guest, journalist Oliver Bullough, calls this transnational shadow world Moneyland. His new book is called \"Moneyland: The Inside Story Of The Crooks And Kleptocrats Who Rule The World.\" As part of his work trying to expose the system, he runs kleptocracy tours in London, which we'll talk about later. Bullough is a regular contributor to The Guardian and is the author of two nonfiction books about Russian history and politics. He lived in and reported from Russia in the early 2000s. Oliver Bullough, welcome to FRESH AIR. So just give us a brief description. What is Moneyland? What do you mean when you use that original coinage?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 1, "text": "And it's a \"country,\" in quotes, that includes many, many countries around the world that specialize in various things.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks very much for having me. Moneyland is a country I invented; it doesn't exist in the way that any normal country does. But it's basically the place where you can put your money, you can put your"}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 2, "text": "To hide ill-gotten money.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's a sort of..."}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 3, "text": "And so, like, this is good news for the super wealthy who hide their money through these vehicles, with the help of other countries, through offshores and trusts and tax havens, dummy companies. But you say it's damaging to democracy, too. How are these offshores and secret ways of keeping money damaging to democracy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it's a sort of portmanteau country. So you use little bits of the laws of many countries, and you create something that's much more powerful, much greater than the sum of its collective parts. So"}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 4, "text": "While draining a lot of the money from the country and stashing it in other parts of the world.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, to explain that, it's - I suppose it's important to back up a little bit and talk about where the idea came from and where I started work. I'm a kind of Russian-ist (ph), a former Soviet"}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 5, "text": "So to exemplify just a small bit of \"Moneyland,\" you use a company that was registered in the name of Rick Gates, Paul Manafort's business associate. And of course, Paul Manafort was Donald Trump's campaign manager and before that was a close associate of Viktor Yanukovych, when Yanukovych was running for the president of Ukraine. I think Manafort managed his campaign and then became an aide when Yanukovych became the authoritarian ruler of the country. So this - you trace, like, a shell company that was registered in Rick Gates' name, Manafort's business associate, and Gates cooperated with the Mueller investigation. And this company was located in what you describe as an unfashionable street in London. The company was named Pompolo Limited. So what was this company?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, incredible amounts of money is being drained. Because this isn't only a problem that afflicts the former Soviet Union; this is something that is - I realized, while researching this book"}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 6, "text": "This office that you visited - what this office does is to create shell companies for people like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Pompolo Limited was one of many companies Manafort used to essentially hide his money. He used - instead of owning his money in his own name - so when he bought, you know, an ostrich skin jacket or en"}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 7, "text": "...Paul Manafort and Rick Gates.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it..."}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 8, "text": "So these companies are what you call shell companies, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It creates companies for anyone who wants them, really. You know, I'm sure they will tell you that they will do all sorts of checks on the origin of the wealth, and perhaps they do now. Who knows? The"}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 9, "text": "So I don't really understand how you, like, buy a company. And then, of course, you can use that company to hide your money and buy things that you wouldn't want to be buying in your own name because that would trace you to ill-gotten money. So how do you buy a shell company? Like, I don't get it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, exactly."}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 10, "text": "Oh, thank you very much. I really appreciate that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's funny because it is something that most of us have absolutely nothing to do with. But it's incredibly easy. If you were to use a search engine, type in, you know, buy a company, Nevada. Nev"}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 11, "text": "Hide my billions.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's funny because it is something that most of us have absolutely nothing to do with. But it's incredibly easy. If you were to use a search engine, type in, you know, buy a company, Nevada. Nev"}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 12, "text": "You mentioned Nevada is a good place to start a shell company. Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's funny because it is something that most of us have absolutely nothing to do with. But it's incredibly easy. If you were to use a search engine, type in, you know, buy a company, Nevada. Nev"}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 13, "text": "We're number one. We're number one", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nevada is - has very relaxed regulations on creating companies. It doesn't - a lot of places, the U.K., for example, now publish the identity of people who own companies. They publish a lot of informa"}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nevada is - has very relaxed regulations on creating companies. It doesn't - a lot of places, the U.K., for example, now publish the identity of people who own companies. They publish a lot of informa"}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 15, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Oliver Bullough, and he's the author of the new book \"Moneyland: The Inside Story Of The Crooks And Kleptocrats Who Rule The World.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I'd say number one, yeah. I mean, it's not all of the U.S. Some states are more difficult than others. But, you know, these guys know their business. So, yeah, I would say the U.S. is number"}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Oliver Bullough. His new book \"Moneyland\" is about how crooks and kleptocrats hide their money and launder it through a secretive global system of money-laundering shell companies, foundations, real estate. He's a journalist and the author of two nonfiction books about Russian history and politics. He was based in Russia during the 2000s. So one of the things you do in London that ties in directly to your new book is a tour. What's the name of the tour?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I'd say number one, yeah. I mean, it's not all of the U.S. Some states are more difficult than others. But, you know, these guys know their business. So, yeah, I would say the U.S. is number"}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 17, "text": "If you wanted to expand the kleptocracy tours, you could probably expand them to the U.S. What would the best cities for the tours be?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "These are the kleptocracy tours. They're a lot of fun. They're modeled loosely on the Hollywood tours that - I've never been to Hollywood, but I understand you can get on a bus and be driven around. A"}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 18, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We've talked about this, yeah. New York would obviously be a winner."}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 19, "text": "Is that because these cities that you've mentioned are great places to live with, you know, wonderful, you know, palatial places to buy or to live? Or is it because of the laws in those places, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, New York and London are kind of the capitals of \"Moneyland.\" They can spar with each other. In fact, to be honest, from a \"Moneyland\" perspective, New York and London are kind of the same pl"}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 20, "text": "How have all the places in London, where you live, that are really owned by often-absent oligarchs and kleptocrats, how is that affecting life in London?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, these are, obviously, lovely places to be. But, you know, if you think about, if you're a crook and you've stolen a fortune, you're well-aware of the fact that anyone in your country can ste"}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 21, "text": "My guest is journalist Oliver Bullough. His new book is called \"Moneyland.\" After a break, we'll talk about how Donald Trump fits into \"Moneyland,\" and Ken Tucker will review the new album by rapper and singer Lizzo. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's really interesting, actually, because there are these districts - I mean places like Kensington, Knightsbridge - districts which were, you know, they were always kind of high-end districts."}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with British journalist Oliver Bullough, author of the new book \"Moneyland\" about how oligarchs, kleptocrats and crooks hide their spoils in shell companies and real estate. To illustrate his point about how money is stashed in real estate, he takes London sightseers on kleptocracy tours, pointing out the mansions and apartments owned by kleptocrats and oligarchs. Bullough is a regular contributor to The Guardian and is the author of two nonfiction books about Russian history and politics. He lived in and reported from Russia in the early 2000s. So one of the places that you visited on your own personal kleptocracy tour was Viktor Yanukovych's - you describe it as a palace in Ukraine.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's really interesting, actually, because there are these districts - I mean places like Kensington, Knightsbridge - districts which were, you know, they were always kind of high-end districts."}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 23, "text": "So, again, he is the president that Paul Manafort was close to and where he worked as - Manafort worked as his campaign manager. And when he was elected president, he worked as Yanukovych's close aide. And then tried to launder his reputation in the western world - launder Yanukovych's reputation in the western world. So you visited what had been his residence. I think he'd already fled the country when you visited. And it sounds like this palace had become a tourist attraction.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 24, "text": "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's stop there", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I have a little bit of previous with Yanukovych because he was - in fact, the only press secretary who's ever bitten me was his press secretary. She tried to stop me asking a question. A"}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 25, "text": ". What part of the body did she bite you on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I have a little bit of previous with Yanukovych because he was - in fact, the only press secretary who's ever bitten me was his press secretary. She tried to stop me asking a question. A"}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 26, "text": "That is strange. Like, how did that happen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My shoulder. It was very painful though."}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 27, "text": "Did she break the skin?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was at a meeting. And I was trying to push my way to the front in a sort of slightly pushy, journalistic way. And there were lots of security guards around, and I'd managed to get in front of"}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 28, "text": "Wow", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, but she did break the jacket."}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 29, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, but she did break the jacket."}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 30, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was - that was - yeah. It was, you know - she had a go. Anyway, the point is he had been around on the scene for a long time in Ukraine."}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 31, "text": "So the land in this, like, a - what? - hunting lodge that you refer to was owned - wasn't registered to Yanukovych. It was registered to a company named Dom Lesnika.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was in a previous revolution in 2004-5, which he also lost that one as well. He has a record of losing revolutions. So he'd been around on the scene for a long time in lots of roles. He had been "}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 32, "text": "So tell us about that company and its role in laundering Yanukovych's money.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 33, "text": "And when you describe your friend as a revolutionary, you meant one of the people who is trying to and succeeded in overthrowing Yanukovych.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So this is where the idea for \"Moneyland\" came from for me - was because, I suppose, I was visiting these palaces with a kind of bit of a sense of humor. You know, they were vulgar. They were trashy. "}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He's got - he had serious, you know, cajones, as I believe you say in your country."}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 35, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He turned up the morning after the revolution at the big gates of this hunting lodge with his daughter, who I think was 8 at the time. And he turned up with his daughter and just told the policeman gu"}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 36, "text": "Yes. So what you've described - you know, the hunting lodge was owned by a company named Dom Lesnika, which was registered in England. But that company was owned by another company which was owned by another company. So it sounds kind of like the corporate equivalent of Russian nesting dolls, where, like, a little doll's in a bigger doll, which is in a bigger doll, which is nested in a bigger doll. So, again, if you're trying to investigate the ownership of some of the stuff, it would take forever because there are so many companies.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Anton and his daughter went through the gates into this kind of pleasure garden, you know, with the sort of spreading lawns and ponds and - I mean, gorgeous place - yacht harbor, a shooting range a"}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 37, "text": "Now, one of the questions you try to answer in the book is, how does somebody like Yanukovych, who was ruling a country not noted for its wealth, end up having such a fortune? Give us some examples of how, like, Yanukovych and other people in Ukraine basically looted the country of wealth.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is incredibly difficult. You know, you can almost see it as - yeah - like, armored nesting dolls. Each one takes an enormous amount of effort to cut through - often to cut through and find out who "}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 38, "text": "So this is a model for getting rich for leaders in a lot of countries.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's difficult. You need to think about a government as being totally other than what we think of as a government. If you stop thinking of it as being something to govern and start thinking of it, ess"}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 39, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Oliver Bullough. He's the author of the new book \"Moneyland: The Inside Story Of The Crooks And Kleptocrats Who Rule The World.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. I mean, sort of all over the world, you see that countries have come to this independently, essentially. Now, it's very easy to do this in a place like Russia or Venezuela that has a - you"}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 40, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is journalist Oliver Bullough. He's the author of the new book \"Moneyland\" about how crooks and kleptocrats hide their money and launder it through a secretive global system. So in writing about the secretive global system of shell companies, et cetera, you write about how some jurisdictions, like, actually create laws that are favorable for shell companies and other ways of hiding money. Can you give us an example of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. I mean, sort of all over the world, you see that countries have come to this independently, essentially. Now, it's very easy to do this in a place like Russia or Venezuela that has a - you"}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 41, "text": "So if you're a jurisdiction that has laws favorable to hiding money, you can't exactly, like, advertise that. How does word get out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I mean, this happens all over the world. One example that I like writing about is the island of Nevis, which is a little island in the Caribbean. It's part of the country of St. Kitts and Nevis. "}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 42, "text": "Oh, I like that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You kind of can advertise it 'cause this is all done in - it's all - everyone talks in euphemisms anyway. I mean, no one talks about hiding dirty money. You talk about, you know, asset protection or a"}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 43, "text": "Where does Donald Trump fit into Moneyland?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is a - you know, you - no one ever talks about a bribe. You talk about a consultancy payment or possibly a facilitation payment. You know, so the language of Moneyland is the language of obfuscatio"}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 44, "text": "So in terms of Donald Trump's place in Moneyland, you quote a Reuters investigation about Trump properties. Can you just tell us a couple of things that that investigation found?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that - I mean, there's, obviously, a lot spoken about Donald Trump and his ties to Russia and all of that. And - you know, and to a certain extent, the jury's still out on a lot of that. I thi"}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 45, "text": "Oliver Bullough, I want to thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was in the - sort of the early days of the Trump presidency, when there was a kind of journalistic feeding frenzy to find any, you know, connection between Donald Trump and Russia. And they went an"}
{"id": "719001286", "date": "2019-05-01", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "'Moneyland' Reveals How Oligarchs, Kleptocrats And Crooks Stash Fortunes", "question_index": 46, "text": "Oliver Bullough is the author of the new book \"Moneyland.\" After we take a short break, Ken Tucker will review Lizzo's new album and tell us why he thinks she's more fun to listen to than anyone else right now. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having me. It's been wonderful."}
{"id": "719536645", "date": "2019-05-02", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Journalist Explains John Bolton's Push For 'Aggressive Use' Of American Power", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. President Trump's national security adviser John Bolton is known as a tough-talking hawk. A new article about him in The New Yorker is titled \"John Bolton On The Warpath.\" My guest is the author, Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Dexter Filkins, who's a staff writer for the magazine. He's joined us many times on the show, dating back to when he covered the war in Iraq. Bolton is President Trump's third national security adviser, after Generals Michael Flynn and H.R. McMaster. Trump was familiar with Bolton's views because Bolton had made hundreds of appearances on Fox News as a guest, and then as a paid commentator. On Fox, he'd advocated for military strikes on Iranian training camps and for forced regime change in North Korea. Earlier in Bolton's career, he served in the George W. Bush administration as undersecretary of state for arms control and international security affairs and as U.N. ambassador. He advocated for the invasion of Iraq and told Filkins he still thinks the decision to overthrow Saddam Hussein was correct. Dexter Filkins, welcome back to FRESH AIR. So as you point out in the piece, the Trump administration has no permanent secretary of defense, no secretary of homeland security, no ambassador to the U.N. What does it mean in terms of the power John Bolton has now in his role as national security adviser?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "719536645", "date": "2019-05-02", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Journalist Explains John Bolton's Push For 'Aggressive Use' Of American Power", "question_index": 1, "text": "And are they on the same page on most things, Pompeo and Bolton?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the national security adviser, just by virtue of the geography of that job - it's in the West Wing. It's right down the hall from the Oval Office. It's an incredibly powerful position. You know,"}
{"id": "719536645", "date": "2019-05-02", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Journalist Explains John Bolton's Push For 'Aggressive Use' Of American Power", "question_index": 2, "text": "So you're saying Pompeo is there to amplify Trump's views. Bolton has very strong views of his own.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think so. I think so. I had a funny conversation about Pompeo and Bolton together with an unnamed Western diplomat who knows them both. And they said, look, you know, Pompeo is really only intereste"}
{"id": "719536645", "date": "2019-05-02", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Journalist Explains John Bolton's Push For 'Aggressive Use' Of American Power", "question_index": 3, "text": "So the title of your piece is \"John Bolton On The Warpath.\" I know he's a hawk. Does the piece imply that he's going to lead us into war?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, he does."}
{"id": "719536645", "date": "2019-05-02", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Journalist Explains John Bolton's Push For 'Aggressive Use' Of American Power", "question_index": 4, "text": "If Trump and Bolton have such opposing world views when it comes to the possibility of military intervention or war, why would Trump choose him? Why did he choose him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "for that reason."}
{"id": "719536645", "date": "2019-05-02", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Journalist Explains John Bolton's Push For 'Aggressive Use' Of American Power", "question_index": 5, "text": "What did Bolton advocate for as a highly paid commentator on Fox News?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think there's - that's a really good question. I think there's two reasons for that. One is that, you know, I think he's, Bolton, is kind of emotionally appealing to Trump. You know, Bolton wa"}
{"id": "719536645", "date": "2019-05-02", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Journalist Explains John Bolton's Push For 'Aggressive Use' Of American Power", "question_index": 6, "text": "...Kim Jong Un. And I mean, they seem to have such different approaches to viewing the world, even when they agree on things, because, you know, Trump is very sentimental and very angry, you know, like, depending on what what mode he's in. But, you know, in terms of war, an aide - one of Trump's aides told you that he overheard Trump's end of the conversation with the former - his former national security adviser, H.R. McMaster. And even though he was forcing out H.R. McMaster, he called him to run ideas past him about who his successor should be. And when he mentioned Bolton, the aide said that he heard Trump say, Bolton is a hawk like you. He's going to get us into a war. So if Trump thinks that Bolton is going to get us into a war and if Trump doesn't want to get into a war, it, again, seems like it's going to be a weird ride with the two of them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Well, he, as I mentioned, he - and I went through a lot of stuff that he said on the air. And, you know, I think he's finding - I should say, before I answer that question - I think he's finding, yo"}
{"id": "719536645", "date": "2019-05-02", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Journalist Explains John Bolton's Push For 'Aggressive Use' Of American Power", "question_index": 7, "text": "There's one more thing about war. After President Obama won the Nobel Peace Prize, Bolton said, Homo sapiens are hard-wired for violent conflict.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's gonna be a weird ride. It is. And I think the question is, you know, what happens out there in the world - and kind of how it develops because, I think, Bolton's view is - you know, Bolton's worl"}
{"id": "719536645", "date": "2019-05-02", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Journalist Explains John Bolton's Push For 'Aggressive Use' Of American Power", "question_index": 8, "text": "So it sounds like he accepts war as just, like, the natural scheme of things. Like, of course, we're going to get into wars.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "719536645", "date": "2019-05-02", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Journalist Explains John Bolton's Push For 'Aggressive Use' Of American Power", "question_index": 9, "text": "All right. Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Dexter Filkins, a staff writer for The New Yorker. His new piece is called \"John Bolton On The Warpath.\" We're going to take a short break. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I - you know, I think, you know, the world is a bad neighborhood. It is. And so, you know, the - I think that any diplomat would go into - sort of venture out into the world with a view sort of al"}
{"id": "719536645", "date": "2019-05-02", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Journalist Explains John Bolton's Push For 'Aggressive Use' Of American Power", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is New Yorker staff writer Dexter Filkins. His new article is about President Trump's national security adviser, John Bolton. It's called \"John Bolton On The Warpath.\" I asked Filkins about Bolton's role in the Trump administration's response to the mass protests in Venezuela and the effort by the Venezuelan opposition to drive President Nicolas Maduro out of office. So as we record this, in Venezuela, there is an attempt by the opposition, by many Venezuelans, by part of the military, to overthrow President Nicolas Maduro. Venezuela has just been falling apart economically in every way. And you write that Bolton was leading the fight against Maduro, you know, in the U.S., accusing him of forming, along with Cuba and Nicaragua, a troika of tyranny in the western hemisphere. You were with Bolton in Miami when he addressed - well, tell us who he addressed. And tell us what some of the things he said.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I - you know, I think, you know, the world is a bad neighborhood. It is. And so, you know, the - I think that any diplomat would go into - sort of venture out into the world with a view sort of al"}
{"id": "719536645", "date": "2019-05-02", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Journalist Explains John Bolton's Push For 'Aggressive Use' Of American Power", "question_index": 11, "text": "OK. But you're right. With the 2020 elections looming, the prospect of appealing to voters may create a strong temptation to launch a military intervention. You're talking about a military intervention in Venezuela.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's pretty amazing. I was - it was just a couple weeks ago. I was - I went down to Miami with Bolton. He addressed a convention of the surviving members of the the 2506 Brigade. And that's the "}
{"id": "719536645", "date": "2019-05-02", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Journalist Explains John Bolton's Push For 'Aggressive Use' Of American Power", "question_index": 12, "text": "So if we do any kind of military intervention in Venezuela, are we, in some ways, in conflict with Russia?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And I - you know, the administration's been very clear about it. I mean, Bolton was - I asked him directly. And he could have said no. He said - to the contrary - he said all options are on the t"}
{"id": "719536645", "date": "2019-05-02", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Journalist Explains John Bolton's Push For 'Aggressive Use' Of American Power", "question_index": 13, "text": "I mean, like, a military conflict.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Definitely. I..."}
{"id": "719536645", "date": "2019-05-02", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Journalist Explains John Bolton's Push For 'Aggressive Use' Of American Power", "question_index": 14, "text": "Bolton has been tweeting a lot. He's been directly tweeting the people of Venezuela to overthrow Maduro. He's been tweeting leaders of the Maduro administration to leave, that, you know, like, you know what the right thing to do is. Leave.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that - I think we're a long way from a military intervention - we're a long way. I mean, the administration is foursquare behind Juan Guaido, the opposition leader. And they're supportin"}
{"id": "719536645", "date": "2019-05-02", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Journalist Explains John Bolton's Push For 'Aggressive Use' Of American Power", "question_index": 15, "text": "And I'm wondering if that sounds kind of unprecedented to you. I mean, I know Twitter is kind of new in the world of diplomacy. But to directly address not just the people of Venezuela but the leaders of, you know, Maduro's administration or regime, depending on how you want to look at it, and tell them to leave.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "719536645", "date": "2019-05-02", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Journalist Explains John Bolton's Push For 'Aggressive Use' Of American Power", "question_index": 16, "text": "My guest is Dexter Filkins. He's a staff writer for The New Yorker, and his new article is titled \"John Bolton On The Warpath.\" We'll talk more about John Bolton after we take a short break. And our TV critic, David Bianculli, will review the new Netflix dark comedy series \"Dead To Me,\" about two women dealing with grief issues played by Christina Applegate and Linda Cardellini. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think it is remarkable. The national security adviser is - typically and historically is not someone who gets out in the public and bangs the drum. And Bolton is doing that, you know, with his"}
{"id": "719536645", "date": "2019-05-02", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Journalist Explains John Bolton's Push For 'Aggressive Use' Of American Power", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. If you're just joining us, we're talking about President Trump's tough-talking, hawkish national security adviser John Bolton. My guest Dexter Filkins is a staff writer for The New Yorker. He's written a new article about Bolton called \"John Bolton On The Warpath.\" Bolton is President Trump's third national security adviser after Generals Michael Flynn and H.R. McMaster. Trump was familiar with Bolton's views because Bolton had made hundreds of appearances on Fox News as a guest and then as a paid commentator. On Fox, he'd advocated for military strikes on Iranian training camps and for forced regime change in North Korea. So you just grabbed John Bolton as a ferocious critic of Iran. And when he moved into his office as national security adviser in the Trump administration, he hung a framed copy of Trump's executive order nullifying the nuclear agreement with Iran. I'm sure President Trump liked that because it was his order. But did you see it when you interviewed Bolton? Did you see it framed...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think it is remarkable. The national security adviser is - typically and historically is not someone who gets out in the public and bangs the drum. And Bolton is doing that, you know, with his"}
{"id": "719536645", "date": "2019-05-02", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Journalist Explains John Bolton's Push For 'Aggressive Use' Of American Power", "question_index": 18, "text": "So why did he hate the deal so much?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, he gave me a little - you know, he gave me a little tour around the office, and that was the first thing he pointed to. He said, you know, this is the executive order nullifying the agreem"}
{"id": "719536645", "date": "2019-05-02", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Journalist Explains John Bolton's Push For 'Aggressive Use' Of American Power", "question_index": 19, "text": "But, you know, somebody else told you that the Obama administration sanctions were to punish the Iranian regime, but these new sanctions are punishing the Iranian people. And people express to you in the piece the fear that the sanctions are so tight they will lead to war with Iran, as opposed to a regime change.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a good question. I think - somebody told me in my piece that Bolton has a kind of anal obsession with Iran which is, like, not explicable. I think Bolton would - in his defense, he would say - "}
{"id": "719536645", "date": "2019-05-02", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Journalist Explains John Bolton's Push For 'Aggressive Use' Of American Power", "question_index": 20, "text": "Let's talk about John Bolton's background. He was in the George W. Bush administration, first as undersecretary of state for arms control and international security affairs, then as U.N. ambassador. He was a controversial pick for U.N. ambassador. He never got out of committee, but he managed to get the position anyways. So refresh our memory about how he managed to become U.N. ambassador.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that's one of the fears. The - I think one of the things that the United States kind of bureaucracy, I should say - the kind of - the experts in the government have learned over the past"}
{"id": "719536645", "date": "2019-05-02", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Journalist Explains John Bolton's Push For 'Aggressive Use' Of American Power", "question_index": 21, "text": "If the story is correct - I mean, I know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's pretty amazing. It really is because it - when Bolton was nominated to become ambassador to the United Nations - first of all, the - it was in the middle of the Iraq War. So it was, you kno"}
{"id": "719536645", "date": "2019-05-02", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Journalist Explains John Bolton's Push For 'Aggressive Use' Of American Power", "question_index": 22, "text": "...Bolton denies saying this. But if the story is true, that he actually threatened Bustani and said, look; we know where your wife and your children are...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "719536645", "date": "2019-05-02", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Journalist Explains John Bolton's Push For 'Aggressive Use' Of American Power", "question_index": 23, "text": "...That's really Mafia talk.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "719536645", "date": "2019-05-02", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Journalist Explains John Bolton's Push For 'Aggressive Use' Of American Power", "question_index": 24, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Dexter Filkins, a staff writer for The New Yorker. His new piece is about President Trump's national security adviser, John Bolton, who was George W. Bush's U.N. ambassador, and in between was a paid commentator on Fox News. Let's take a short break. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, that's - I think Bustani said the same thing to me. I mean, he said, I felt like I was in a movie - like a Mafia movie or something. You know, like, let's assume for a second it's true. Ye"}
{"id": "719536645", "date": "2019-05-02", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Journalist Explains John Bolton's Push For 'Aggressive Use' Of American Power", "question_index": 25, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Dexter Filkins. He's a staff writer for The New Yorker. His new piece is called \"John Bolton On The Warpath.\" John Bolton is President Trump's national security adviser. Let's talk about Bolton's background. In 1985, Bolton joined the Reagan Justice Department. And there, he helped shepherd in the Supreme Court nomination of Robert Bork. He did not get confirmed in the Senate. And as you say, that began the era of fiercely partisan high-court nominations. I think Bork went on to found or co-found the Federalist Society...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, that's - I think Bustani said the same thing to me. I mean, he said, I felt like I was in a movie - like a Mafia movie or something. You know, like, let's assume for a second it's true. Ye"}
{"id": "719536645", "date": "2019-05-02", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Journalist Explains John Bolton's Push For 'Aggressive Use' Of American Power", "question_index": 26, "text": "...The group of very conservative, you know, lawyers. So what were Bolton's priorities back then? Do you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "719536645", "date": "2019-05-02", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Journalist Explains John Bolton's Push For 'Aggressive Use' Of American Power", "question_index": 27, "text": "Is there anything I left out of the interview...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Again, he's been a conservative his whole life. If you go back - when Bolton got out of law school, he was an assistant to his Yale law professor Ralph Winter. And Ralph Winter was a very well-known f"}
{"id": "719536645", "date": "2019-05-02", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Journalist Explains John Bolton's Push For 'Aggressive Use' Of American Power", "question_index": 28, "text": "...That you reported that you think is really important and you want to share with...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "719536645", "date": "2019-05-02", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Journalist Explains John Bolton's Push For 'Aggressive Use' Of American Power", "question_index": 29, "text": "...Us before we have to move on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "719536645", "date": "2019-05-02", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Journalist Explains John Bolton's Push For 'Aggressive Use' Of American Power", "question_index": 30, "text": "And I guess a question that we're left with is, you know, there's a difference between recommending policy and being responsible for pushing us into a military conflict with devastating consequences and tens of thousands of deaths. Would Bolton go to the point where tens of thousands of deaths were kind of, you know - that he'd be responsible for the action that led to it? Is he...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, I would do - I think there's one. You know, Bolton has aggressively advocated attacking North Korea for years. And I had a conversation with - Larry Wilkerson was chief of staff to Colin P"}
{"id": "719536645", "date": "2019-05-02", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Journalist Explains John Bolton's Push For 'Aggressive Use' Of American Power", "question_index": 31, "text": "Well, Dexter Filkins, it's always great to talk with you. Thank you so much for coming back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's - yeah. That's a really good point. Look. I - it's one thing to be a highly paid commentator on Fox News and to say, we should bomb North Korea. We should bomb Iran. We - you know, we nee"}
{"id": "719536645", "date": "2019-05-02", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Journalist Explains John Bolton's Push For 'Aggressive Use' Of American Power", "question_index": 32, "text": "Dexter Filkins is a staff writer for The New Yorker. His new article is titled \"John Bolton On The Warpath.\" After we take a short break, our TV critic David Bianculli will review the new Netflix dark comedy series \"Dead To Me\" about two women dealing with grief issues, played by Christina Applegate and Linda Cardellini. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "719986809", "date": "2019-05-03", "guest": "Laurence Fishburne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Boyz N The Hood' Director John Singleton", "question_index": 0, "text": "When you sold the script for \"Boyz N The Hood,\" you insisted on directing it yourself. I was wondering what the movie was like in your mind when you envisioned an assigned director doing it?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry Gross spoke with John Singleton in 1991, when \"Boyz N The Hood\" was first released."}
{"id": "719986809", "date": "2019-05-03", "guest": "Laurence Fishburne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Boyz N The Hood' Director John Singleton", "question_index": 1, "text": "Alan Parker is, by the way, the person who directed \"Mississippi Burning\" among other things - for our listeners...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- it would be like selling one of my relatives to someone. Can you imagine somebody like Alan Parker trying to direct \"Boyz N The Hood\"? You know, it would probably end up - Furious would be a Baptist"}
{"id": "719986809", "date": "2019-05-03", "guest": "Laurence Fishburne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Boyz N The Hood' Director John Singleton", "question_index": 2, "text": "...Who are trying to figure out which director he is. So you thought it would be shown in things that would end up being stereotypical and generationally - and location would - all wrong.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "719986809", "date": "2019-05-03", "guest": "Laurence Fishburne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Boyz N The Hood' Director John Singleton", "question_index": 3, "text": "What kind of neighborhood did you grow up in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I couldn't let nobody from, you know, Iowa or - you know what I'm saying? - or Idaho or even Encino to write this film. It had to be directed by somebody who lived it."}
{"id": "719986809", "date": "2019-05-03", "guest": "Laurence Fishburne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Boyz N The Hood' Director John Singleton", "question_index": 4, "text": "Do you have any friends who were killed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I grew up on Vermont and 101st in a part of South LA known as Inglewood in the flight path of LAX. And it was rough, but it wasn't as rough as it is now - because, you know, the neighborhood is now se"}
{"id": "719986809", "date": "2019-05-03", "guest": "Laurence Fishburne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Boyz N The Hood' Director John Singleton", "question_index": 5, "text": "Yeah?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A couple."}
{"id": "719986809", "date": "2019-05-03", "guest": "Laurence Fishburne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Boyz N The Hood' Director John Singleton", "question_index": 6, "text": "What were the circumstances?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "719986809", "date": "2019-05-03", "guest": "Laurence Fishburne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Boyz N The Hood' Director John Singleton", "question_index": 7, "text": "Mmm hmm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had one friend - his name was Robbie Stringer. He got killed because he - in the mid '80s when cocaine was made cheaper in the form of crack, you know, because that all happened in the early '"}
{"id": "719986809", "date": "2019-05-03", "guest": "Laurence Fishburne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Boyz N The Hood' Director John Singleton", "question_index": 8, "text": "How did it change your life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, he started getting involved in the trade and stuff. And he got killed when he was 17. He got killed in an alley down the street from my house. It really changed my neighborhood just like, yo"}
{"id": "719986809", "date": "2019-05-03", "guest": "Laurence Fishburne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Boyz N The Hood' Director John Singleton", "question_index": 9, "text": "Mmm hmm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It just - it made me - it was like a crux in which all these things that were happening - growing up in the early '80s - were, like, coming to fruition. And I was realizing that there was a certain sy"}
{"id": "719986809", "date": "2019-05-03", "guest": "Laurence Fishburne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Boyz N The Hood' Director John Singleton", "question_index": 10, "text": "Now, \"Boyz N The Hood\" is - a lot of it is about the importance of having a father around - a strong father...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's the '90s. And so I'm ready to deal a new hand."}
{"id": "719986809", "date": "2019-05-03", "guest": "Laurence Fishburne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Boyz N The Hood' Director John Singleton", "question_index": 11, "text": "...As a good role model and also to kind of discipline you and, like, teach you the difference between right and wrong.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "719986809", "date": "2019-05-03", "guest": "Laurence Fishburne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Boyz N The Hood' Director John Singleton", "question_index": 12, "text": "Did you have a strong father?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's a whole population of young people - black, white, whatever - that don't have a strong father figure or strong family background, for that matter. Most people don't even talk to their kids, al"}
{"id": "719986809", "date": "2019-05-03", "guest": "Laurence Fishburne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Boyz N The Hood' Director John Singleton", "question_index": 13, "text": "And in the movie, the parents of the main character are separated. Your parents were separated, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. My father was the model for Furious."}
{"id": "719986809", "date": "2019-05-03", "guest": "Laurence Fishburne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Boyz N The Hood' Director John Singleton", "question_index": 14, "text": "So who did you live with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My parents never married. But they were still good parents, you know?"}
{"id": "719986809", "date": "2019-05-03", "guest": "Laurence Fishburne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Boyz N The Hood' Director John Singleton", "question_index": 15, "text": "It's kind of like the character in the movie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I lived with my mother for a certain period of time. And then when I turned 11, I went to live with my father."}
{"id": "719986809", "date": "2019-05-03", "guest": "Laurence Fishburne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Boyz N The Hood' Director John Singleton", "question_index": 16, "text": "Now, in the movie, the character changes because the mother kind of made a pact with the father that if discipline became a real problem with their son that she would send him over to the father and have him live with the father. Was that what happened with you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's exactly like the character in the movie."}
{"id": "719986809", "date": "2019-05-03", "guest": "Laurence Fishburne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Boyz N The Hood' Director John Singleton", "question_index": 17, "text": "What was - what were you getting into that was a warning sign to your mother?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes, it was."}
{"id": "719986809", "date": "2019-05-03", "guest": "Laurence Fishburne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Boyz N The Hood' Director John Singleton", "question_index": 18, "text": "What did your father do to lay down the law right away?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "getting into some certain things that I shouldn't have been getting into. I was on the wrong path, and I needed to be guided onto the right path. And that's why I went to live with my father."}
{"id": "719986809", "date": "2019-05-03", "guest": "Laurence Fishburne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Boyz N The Hood' Director John Singleton", "question_index": 19, "text": "Did you - I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He taught me a sense of responsibility. He made me work around the house. He taught me to value myself and my culture. And when I was - you know, just, you know, where - and respect him, you know? And"}
{"id": "719986809", "date": "2019-05-03", "guest": "Laurence Fishburne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Boyz N The Hood' Director John Singleton", "question_index": 20, "text": "I wanted to know if you ever defied your father.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No worries, Terry."}
{"id": "719986809", "date": "2019-05-03", "guest": "Laurence Fishburne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Boyz N The Hood' Director John Singleton", "question_index": 21, "text": "Were you ever looked on by some of your friends as too much of the good kid of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's, like, real estate - you know, real estate is the way to go. You can get your license before you finish college. I was, like, no. I'm going to be a filmmaker, you know? So I don't do everything m"}
{"id": "719986809", "date": "2019-05-03", "guest": "Laurence Fishburne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Boyz N The Hood' Director John Singleton", "question_index": 22, "text": "OK - just...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, heck no."}
{"id": "719986809", "date": "2019-05-03", "guest": "Laurence Fishburne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Boyz N The Hood' Director John Singleton", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is a great trait to have as a filmmaker. How did you use it as a teenager?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "sway attitudes and sway weak-minded people into certain directions, whether that - whether or not they wanted to or not go into that direction."}
{"id": "719986809", "date": "2019-05-03", "guest": "Laurence Fishburne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Boyz N The Hood' Director John Singleton", "question_index": 24, "text": "\"Boyz N The Hood\" has gotten very good reviews. It's doing really well at the box office. How is that going to affect the next movie that you make? Do you know what that movie will be? Are you getting surprising offers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, no - you learn a lot from comic books. You read comic books, and you have certain characters who are kings and consider themself royalty and certain people who command respect like Doctor Doom"}
{"id": "719986809", "date": "2019-05-03", "guest": "Laurence Fishburne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Boyz N The Hood' Director John Singleton", "question_index": 25, "text": ". That's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a romance."}
{"id": "719986809", "date": "2019-05-03", "guest": "Laurence Fishburne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Boyz N The Hood' Director John Singleton", "question_index": 26, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not for real. I'm just joking. I'm wondering whether or not..."}
{"id": "719986809", "date": "2019-05-03", "guest": "Laurence Fishburne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Boyz N The Hood' Director John Singleton", "question_index": 27, "text": "Well, John Singleton, I want to thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I'm going to be able to get a date after this movie."}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 0, "text": "That's a clip from \"Veep.\" David Mandel, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Selina) I wouldn't be your veep if there were a grassy knoll full of Jodie Foster fans in the front row at your inauguration."}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 1, "text": "Oh, I know.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much, and congratulations on finding a clip from \"Veep\" that you can actually play on the air legally..."}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 2, "text": "There is so much cursing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Without getting fined by the FCC."}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 3, "text": "There is so much incredibly creative cursing and insulting on your show", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 5, "text": "So, you know, do you think vice presidential candidates and vice presidents consider that to be a really bad job?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We try. We try."}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 6, "text": "Dick Cheney seemed to have a lot of power in the job.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm running. Oh God, now - and starts to re-evaluate what he thought he liked about it. It's a thankless, thankless task."}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 7, "text": "Maybe he never seems happy", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, but he didn't seem happy. Maybe that's just him. I don't know."}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, but he didn't seem happy. Maybe that's just him. I don't know."}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 9, "text": "So when you took over as the showrunner of Season 5, there was a crazy cliffhanger from Season 4, which I can't even begin to explain. So I'm going to ask you. I'm going to throw the ball to you", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Or I don't know - maybe that was smiling for him and it was just really creepy. I don't know."}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 10, "text": "and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Or I don't know - maybe that was smiling for him and it was just really creepy. I don't know."}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 11, "text": "...Ask you about the political cliffhanger.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Basically, yeah."}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 12, "text": "So let's hear how the scene actually sounded when it played out on TV. And this is Selina Meyer's staff trying to figure out what happens if the election ends in a tie in the electoral vote - as it looks like it's about to do. So they all go on to Google", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Season 4, which was kind of part of the reason I took the job, by the way - and I'll loop back to that in a second - but basically, Armando and his team ended the season with Selina running for presid"}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 13, "text": ", basically...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Season 4, which was kind of part of the reason I took the job, by the way - and I'll loop back to that in a second - but basically, Armando and his team ended the season with Selina running for presid"}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 14, "text": "...To see what they're supposed to do - like, what happens next? - what the protocol is. So here's the scene from \"Veep.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 15, "text": "So the vice president turned president, played by Julia Louis-Dreyfus, not only doesn't get along with her daughter, she never got along with her mother. And in this past season, her mother was gravely ill on life support. And Julia Louis-Dreyfus was called to the bedside to decide whether they should take her off life support or what they should do. And she's kind of torn up about it - you know, tormented about what the right choice is. But really, she's thinking about the recount that's going on and what's going to happen with the presidential election 'cause her ability to stay as president hangs in the balance. And so as she is worried about her mother being gravely ill and what's happening with the recount, her aide, played by Gary Cole - his name in the series is Kent Davison - takes her aside for a private talk. Let's play that scene.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview with David Mandel, the executive producer of \"Veep.\" Terry spoke with him in 2016. One of the topics they discussed had less to do with politics "}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 16, "text": "Was it your idea to come up with the expression, a death bump?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Kent Davison) Really."}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 17, "text": "So in \"Veep,\" there's a character named Jonah who's not very bright, who's been an aide. But this season - this past season - he runs for Congress and makes one gaffe after another. And he's using, without permission, the Tom Petty song \"I Won't Back Down\" as his...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I believe that was the writers. Death bump was their terminology. But I'll take a little credit in the sense of, this was something I definitely wanted to do this season, which was dig into who these "}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 18, "text": "...Campaign theme. And then Tom Petty gets in touch, saying, I didn't author this - authorize this. I do not want to be associated with your campaign. You cannot use my song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct."}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 19, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had actually..."}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 20, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was just going to say they had a number of cease and desists, including a couple of pre-emptive notes from other artists, saying, in case..."}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 21, "text": "Right", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You're thinking of..."}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You're thinking of..."}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 23, "text": "I love that because that happens so much now that a candidate will, you know, appropriate a piece of music, and then the artist who made it will go, like, no, you don't. I hate your campaign and everything you stand for.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Using our music, don't use our music. Yes."}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 24, "text": "And I - yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, we did a line with Selina where - when she was in her mother's hospital room, and she's hearing this Tim McGraw song that is Meemaw - that's her mother's - favorite song. And she's hearing i"}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 25, "text": "So you started your TV writing career on \"Seinfeld.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And by the way, I will also point out we actually had to ask Tom Petty if it was OK that we used the song for Jonah - you know, a version of the, you know - the world sort of meeting - reality meeting"}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 26, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 27, "text": "So doing a comic take on the Republican and Democratic Convention sounds like great training for doing \"Veep.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, my first job, oddly enough, out of college was at Comedy Central when Al Franken, in 1992, hosted comedy coverage of the Democratic and Republican Convention. It was called \"Indecision '92.\""}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 28, "text": "So having worked with Julia Louis-Dreyfus on \"Seinfeld\" and now working with her on \"Veep,\" do you see...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. No, it was amazing training. And by the way, you know, also, \"Saturday Night Live\" - you know, one of the things and - you know, I was a lifelong fan of the show. But then working at \"Saturday Ni"}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 29, "text": "Oh, and \"Curb.\" Right. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And \"Curb,\" by the way. She..."}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 30, "text": "Right. But watching her play a really different character than Elaine on \"Seinfeld\"...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Remember - that's right. We did the season of the \"Seinfeld\" reunion on \"Curb.\" So that was fun, too."}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 31, "text": "...Do you see things that she's capable of that you wouldn't even necessarily have known about from \"Seinfeld\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep."}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 32, "text": "David Mandel, thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was brilliant as Elaine on \"Seinfeld.\" I mean, there's just no question about it. And I always sort of say she just sort of ruined actresses for me. My partners - Jeff, Alec and I, even when we we"}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 33, "text": "Tony Hale, welcome to FRESH AIR. Let me ask you to describe your character of Gary.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Selina Meyer) Yeah, I got it."}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sweet Gary."}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 35, "text": "So the handbag, which has been nicknamed The Leviathan, now has the nuclear code in it, as well as things like tampons.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", but he doesn't hear it. He just bounces back like, you know, some kind of domestic abuse situation. And he is perfectly content where he is."}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 36, "text": "So do you have...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", but he doesn't hear it. He just bounces back like, you know, some kind of domestic abuse situation. And he is perfectly content where he is."}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 37, "text": "So one of the things your character has to do is whisper in Selina's ear what she needs to know about each person that she's meeting and what she needs to say. So, like, when she says to a congressman, oh, and this must be your wife. You whisper in her ear, that's not his wife. It's a prostitute.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very important."}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 38, "text": "So your character hardly talks. He's usually just like whispering lines to Selina.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", doesn't care to know about politics, doesn't know - but he knows these random factoids about people. And so he'll just whisper in her ear just, like, you know - I don't know - his daughter's in reha"}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 39, "text": "So what does your script look like? When you get your script, does it say, Gary, parentheses, looks pained, Gary, parentheses, winces...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 40, "text": "...Gary, parentheses, looks confused? Like, what - because you don't always have lines, but you're on camera...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 41, "text": "...A lot, and you're conveying a lot through your facial expressions and your body posture.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 42, "text": "So although your character doesn't have much dialogue because he's mostly just, like, reacting and giving her little verbal cues, there is a very famous scene", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, they give me kind of a lot of fun lines and tidbits to play with and to kind of react off of her. However, there's times - because in the - which is very special to this show that I've never e"}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 43, "text": "in which you and Selina have a big fight.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, they give me kind of a lot of fun lines and tidbits to play with and to kind of react off of her. However, there's times - because in the - which is very special to this show that I've never e"}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 44, "text": "And this is soon after the president resigns, and Selina becomes president. You start to assert your new power by doing things you believe are right but probably aren't. For instance, there's a painting she doesn't like, so you have it removed from the White House, but it turns out to be the only painting in the White House by a Native American.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 45, "text": "And that becomes this, like, huge issue and a big PR crisis. Then you also spend way too much money on the first state dinner, which also becomes a big PR crisis because she's accused of overspending. When Selina finds out that you're the person behind these disasters, she's furious with you. And she goes to find you and you're kind of trying to hide from her.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 46, "text": "So what happened on Labor Day? Do you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Gary Walsh) I am so sorry for the words that I just spoke."}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 47, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, man. I don't know, but I am dying to find out, man. I mean, there's something fun to not knowing just because it's got to be something really dark..."}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 48, "text": "Hey, you've walked in on the president and the vice president having sex.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Cause I've done some dark things for her. I've dug out stuff in the trash for her. I've broken up with boyfriends for her. She told me - I think it was Season 1 where she's like, I need you to brea"}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 49, "text": "I don't know what you're going to be doing with that information.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I..."}
{"id": "722094523", "date": "2019-05-10", "guest": "Julia Louis-Dreyfus", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 'Veep,' A Comedy Series Skewering Presidential Politics", "question_index": 50, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Which was like walking in on mom and dad having sex."}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Howard Stern described my interview with him as exhausting. We talked a long time because there was so much to talk about - too much to fit in one show. Yesterday we heard Part 1. Today we have Part 2 of my interview with Howard Stern. The occasion for the interview is the publication of his new book collecting some of his favorite interviews from his Sirius XM radio show. The book is called \"Howard Stern Comes Again.\" Let's pick up where we left off yesterday. So we were talking about...", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 1, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Could I say something?"}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 2, "text": "Tell me why.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I love when you say Howard Stern comes again, and I'll tell you why."}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wanted to write..."}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 4, "text": "Where I could say the title, and it would have dealt two meanings.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...A really good book that..."}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...A really good book that..."}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 6, "text": "OK. So what you just said. How does it feel to be doing second-grade humor, as you just called it, when you're 65?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in a way, yes. It definitely has two meanings. Possibly three. But what's really interesting to me is that somehow - I didn't want to imply in the book that somehow the whole show has changed, a"}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 7, "text": "Do you know I have trouble saying that word? Like,", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thought maybe I'd grow out of it, but I haven't. There - I still love fart humor. You know, I was Fartman on MTV. I love..."}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 8, "text": ", I find it so interesting that you played this character, Fartman, and I have trouble just even saying the word. I don't know.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thought maybe I'd grow out of it, but I haven't. There - I still love fart humor. You know, I was Fartman on MTV. I love..."}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 9, "text": "I don't know.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, why is that?"}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 10, "text": "I ask myself that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Why?"}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 11, "text": "...All the time. The whole thing's embarrassing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We all do it."}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 12, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know?"}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's what I loved about it because it is embarrassing. And to my great shame, even to this day, I can't look at old pictures of me as Fartman. My belly's hanging out."}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 14, "text": "Your tuchus is hanging out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My cellulite..."}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 15, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My tuchus is so filled with cellulite. What was I thinking? You know what I mean?"}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 16, "text": "OK, so...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But yet, what - MTV played that over and over again for years and years. And I - you know, that's the thing; I let it all hang out. And I always made myself the brunt of humor, too. I think that's imp"}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I still - listen..."}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 18, "text": "That's right", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I still love phony phone calls. We are the major manufacturer at Sirius XM..."}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I still love phony phone calls. We are the major manufacturer at Sirius XM..."}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 20, "text": "Well, you know, as somebody in radio, one of the things that I found so kind of educational about your show it's that it was people just talking to each other, like, you and your regulars - you know, Robin and Gary and Fred and the whole crew - just talking to each other about sometimes really trivial things, kind of like office gossip. But you were talking in your own voices. And of course, you're all really smart and funny, so it was, like, lively and interesting. But it showed that you can make anything interesting if you're interesting enough in telling it. And if you were just - sounded like people talking to each other, it could be really gripping, as opposed to sounding like announcers or, like, scripted.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Of phony phone calls."}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 21, "text": "You talk with Jerry Seinfeld in one of your interviews about how...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's - and that's the weird thing. Back then, people weren't doing that on the radio, which was what - that was the real revolution; people talking like people. And you know, it's funny. Havin"}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 22, "text": "...He and you are always constantly thinking in your head, how do I make what's happening now funny for the show?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 23, "text": "Or for stage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 24, "text": "So that's - that means, I think, that you're always removing yourself from the situation. I mean, that's basically what Jerry Seinfeld says. Actually, what you point out to him, I think, that if you're doing that, you have, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 25, "text": "...One part of yourself in the world, in the moment, and the other part analyzing it and thinking, how do I make this funny tomorrow?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 26, "text": "So what's going through your mind right now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, Jerry and I have a fundamental disagreement about this. My whole life has been walking around, and sometimes I'm really there, but most times I'm mining some situation for radio. And my methodol"}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 27, "text": "I'm glad you brought up TM.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, I'm focused on what we're doing, but - and I know when it'll hit me. I'll leave here. I'll go home. I'll do - I do transcendental meditation. I'll be doing it. I'll be getting into it, a"}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 28, "text": "Because you've been meditating since you were 18.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 29, "text": "You explained that your mother taught you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 30, "text": "You know, your mother was - or maybe was suicidal; did you ever feel that way yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it was a profound change with my mother that got me into it. My mother was a depressed woman, suicidal. She had a horrible life, terrible, terrible life. Lost her mother at 9, was sent away from h"}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 31, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I hesitate to say that. But I was pretty down. I've been pretty depressed in my life. And most of that occurred at the time that my marriage fell apart."}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 32, "text": "What was it like to have a mother who put the idea of suicide on the table? Do you know - yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And you know, it was tough. And I was lost, and that's when psychotherapy came into my life. And then..."}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 33, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because, in my family, words meant nothing, that we didn't have real, serious conversation, I thought it was all kind of maybe..."}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 34, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Just for drama."}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 35, "text": "My guest is Howard Stern. His new book of interviews is called \"Howard Stern Comes Again.\" We'll be back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't know how real it was. You know, again, everything in my family seemed that - the real conversation - you know, sex, we could talk about. Race, we could talk about. Homosexuality, we could tal"}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 36, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Howard Stern. His new book of interviews is called \"Howard Stern Comes Again.\" I want to play an example of how you draw on your life for your interviews. So what we've just been talking about, your mother's depression, her need to be cheered up - this comes into play in one of my favorite moments of your interviews, and this is with Stephen Colbert from 2015. And you're talking to him about how he lost his father and two of his siblings, two brothers, in a plane crash. And I forget how old he was - 9 maybe? I forget his age.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't know how real it was. You know, again, everything in my family seemed that - the real conversation - you know, sex, we could talk about. Race, we could talk about. Homosexuality, we could tal"}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 37, "text": "And so you're asking him about that and what it was like for his mother. So I just want to play a short excerpt of that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, something like that. Yeah."}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 38, "text": "I just love hearing how stunned Colbert is when you ask him about, you know, having to cheer up his mother, and if it's hard for him to see women cry because his mother had cried so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it certainly makes for a career. But I mean..."}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 39, "text": "Exactly, exactly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I love that moment. I'm so glad you pulled it because I'm proud of that moment. Because only someone who had to cheer up a mother would know to ask that question."}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 40, "text": "I have a question for you about confronting demons. You've talked about - in several of your interviews, about weed and how you can't smoke because it makes you paranoid.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And you know, again, I've explored the fact that this is a terrible burden on a kid, to have to cheer up a mother. I remember doing, you know, very, very elaborate impressions of all the mothers in th"}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 41, "text": "And you also say in the book that you think LSD triggered your OCD, your obsessive-compulsive disorder.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 42, "text": "What are your OCD rituals...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 43, "text": "So you've talked on the air - recently, too - about the idea of retiring. But you're so obsessive about work, do you worry about how your OCD would respond if there wasn't work to focus on? What would you be obsessing on if you're not obsessing on your show?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I took too much. Oh, my God. When I really suffered badly from it, and I still do to a degree, but it's not as bad. But I would - it was magical thinking. It would be - oh, geez. Let's say I was liste"}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 44, "text": "One of the things you reveal in your book is that the big sick day that you took, you know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I'm kind of afraid of retirement, and then all it is - I think about it, and I want it. It's, like, on any given day, I don't know. And this disturbs me that I don't know myself well enough - th"}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 45, "text": "You actually had a really big health scare. You'd had low white blood cell count that turned out to be from eating too much fish and having too much mercury in your system - less fish, better blood cell count. That - but in the process of checking all that out, you had a body scan. And there's a little shadow on your kidney, so you had to check that out and have exploratory surgery. Everything was fine, but it gave you a lot of chance to contemplate, like, what if it wasn't fine? What if you had cancer? What if the end was near? I mean, it was a cyst. Took a year to recover from the surgery and really feel like you'd fully gotten back to yourself - so do you feel like that made you think more about like, gee, what if I were dying? Like, what am I really afraid of or not afraid of about what that would mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 46, "text": "Are you afraid about death or afraid about suffering before death?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God. That's why I wrote the book. I really - I did not react well being told by a doctor that, 95% chance, you have cancer. I freaked out. And you want to know how unrealistic, again, and unpre"}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 47, "text": "Yeah", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think now it's more about the suffering before death. Boy, are we dark today, huh?"}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 48, "text": ". You know, I think you are really dark, you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think now it's more about the suffering before death. Boy, are we dark today, huh?"}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 49, "text": "That beneath all your humor is, like - your therapist said, beneath your humor is sadness. And I think beneath your humor is a lot of real darkness. And I think that's part of what a lot of us respond to, not - it's not just, like, the shock of what you're saying. It's, like, the darkness and how deep you go with that darkness in plumbing your own depth.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I am."}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 50, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's what I think people like in terms - and that's what I was trying to describe to you with trying to unleash your id, whether it's about women or about, you know, myself and myself in terms of my"}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 51, "text": "You - with you and a lot of cats", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's not a picnic, and she knows it."}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 52, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's not a picnic, and she knows it."}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 53, "text": "Well, kind of almost literally", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God. My wife is the opposite of me. She is light and bright. There's, like, a glow in the room. And it's - I love her for being such a bright light, but I am dark. And I think what audiences re"}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 54, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God. My wife is the opposite of me. She is light and bright. There's, like, a glow in the room. And it's - I love her for being such a bright light, but I am dark. And I think what audiences re"}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 55, "text": "Yeah. Well, I'm going to let you go 'cause I know you got to go. It's been...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did it literally, although not all the way."}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 56, "text": "...Really, really wonderful to talk with you. I want to thank you for staying in radio all of these years and not using radio just as a stepping stone to TV or movies. You've turned down so many offers, and you've stayed in radio. You've done a lot of, like, kind of pioneering work in radio. And thank you. As a radio person, thank you for staying in radio...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, a pleasure."}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 57, "text": "...And for acknowledging, like, the greatness of radio.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you for saying that."}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 58, "text": "Yeah. Well, thank...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I love radio. Radio is the best. And that's it. We'll end on that. Radio is great."}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 59, "text": "Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And thank you."}
{"id": "723521561", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "Howard Stern On 'Fresh Air': Part 2", "question_index": 60, "text": "My interview with Howard Stern was recorded Friday. If you missed part one of the interview, which we broadcast yesterday, you can listen on our podcast. Howard Stern's new book of interviews is called \"Howard Stern Comes Again.\" After we take a short break, we'll remember Doris Day and listen back to my interview with her. She died Monday. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think you're a terrific interviewer. And thank you for giving me access to your audience, which, you know - like I said, that's a good audience."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're going to listen back to the interview I was lucky enough to record with Doris Day, who stayed out of the public eye for decades after giving up her movie career. She died Monday at the age of 97. As film critic Carrie Rickey wrote in her obituary for The Philadelphia Inquirer, Doris Day was beloved for her popular songs, films and wholesomeness. It's hard to name another figure whose sunny persona was so at odds with her stormy life. I spoke with Doris Day in April 2012 after TCM, Turner Classic Movies, released a DVD box set of four of her films and a double CD of her recordings. We first broadcast this interview one day before Day's 88th birthday. Here's our broadcast from 2012.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 1, "text": "I'm thrilled to be able to celebrate Doris Day's birthday with an interview that I just recorded with her. Before we hear it and before I tell you why I love her singing, let me tell you why when I was young I didn't. This is the reason.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 2, "text": "Although that song is from a Doris Day movie I like, Alfred Hitchcock's \"The Man Who Knew Too Much,\" I hadn't yet seen the film when the song played constantly on my parents' radio station for years, the station they tortured me with when what I wanted to hear was rock 'n' roll. Day's romantic comedies of the '60s also seemed like they were for my parents, not for me. Then I grew up and started listening to jazz and jazz singers, and I heard some of Doris Day's recordings with just a pianist or trio. Her voice is so beautiful. You'll hear what I mean on this 1962 track with Andre Previn.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Que sera, sera. Whatever will be will be. The future's not ours to see. Que sera, sera. What will be will be."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 3, "text": "So the next step for me was going back and watching her early movies and finding songs like this one with the Page Cavanaugh Trio from her first film \"Romance On The High Seas\" released in 1948.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Fools rush in where angels fear to tread. And so I come to you, my love. My heart's above my head. Though I see the danger there. If there's a chance for me, then I don't care. Fools rush in"}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 4, "text": "Pretty good, right? In 1954, Doris Day starred opposite Frank Sinatra in the film \"Young At Heart.\" He played a songwriter, and at the end of the film, they duet on the song his character writes. And if you're a fan of Day and Sinatra, watching and hearing them together is something special.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) ...Don't say no to my plea."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 5, "text": "So I've told you some of the reasons why I love Doris Day. I guess everyone who loves her has their own reasons. And when I say everyone, I mean lots of people. Doris Day is the biggest female box office star in Hollywood history. She started singing in big bands when she was a teenager, made her first film when she was 24 and, after making about 40 movies, walked away from that part of her life in 1968. After that, her mission was rescuing and caring for animals. Doris Day ended her public life many years ago. We phoned her at her home in California. Doris Day, welcome to FRESH AIR. I know you rarely give interviews, so let me start by saying that even if we only get to speak for a few moments, I'm so excited that I get to wish you a happy birthday and tell you how much your work means to me. When I grew up, your movies were very popular, but I kind of thought of them as my parents' generation, likewise with the recordings. But when I started making my own taste, I fell in love with your early recordings, and that led me to your movies - your early movies, your later movies. And I just love your work.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) In my uncertain heart, I am only certain of how much I love you, my love."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 6, "text": "Now...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much. I can't believe it."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 7, "text": "I have to say your voice still sounds like Doris Day's voice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're so sweet to say all those nice things."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 8, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Does it?"}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 9, "text": "Did singing always feel more pure to you, like, 'cause I always think, like, when you're in a movie, you're playing a part. But when I hear you singing, I just feel like that is you; that is, like, just cutting to your essence. There's something so beautiful and also naked about it. Like, there's no - you're not - I don't feel like you're playing a character. Do you know what I'm saying? I feel like I'm hearing your essence.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well that's good, huh?"}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 10, "text": "But did you feel different as a singer than as an actress?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that sounds good to me."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 11, "text": "And that was \"Romance On The High Seas.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not at all. I just - you know, I was put in a film. I had never acted. And then I discovered that we were - that I would be singing in that first film. And it was just natural. It was - it just ca"}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 12, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded with Doris Day in 2012. She died Monday at the age of 97. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're remembering Doris Day. She died Monday. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with her in 2012.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 14, "text": "So a lot of people may already know this story, but when you were a teenager and Paramount offered to bring you from your home in Cincinnati to Hollywood, you had a going-away party. And on the way home, the car you were in was hit by a train, and one of your legs was shattered. And that ruined what your dream was at the time, which was to be a dancer. And it's only after that that you discovered you could sing. And when I hear that story, I think, how could Doris Day possibly have known that she couldn't sing until", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 15, "text": "- until she was a teenager and laid up after this accident?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 16, "text": "Did that give you a sense of patience or anxiety, I mean 'cause you must have been really nervous about healing at the time. Only patience can see you through something like that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When that accident happened, I was a dancer with a boy partner. And I was very young, but we used to sing together, and then we would dance. So I was used to singing. But then when that accident happe"}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 17, "text": "It sure does. I was going to point that out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my mother didn't go into the details about the bones not knitting. She just said, you know, we have to take our time with this, and you understand that. And I said, sure, whatever I have to be w"}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 18, "text": "Aha. So you had a lie a little bit", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 20, "text": "So what birthday are we actually celebrating now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We both did."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 21, "text": "OK, so that's the real number, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Eighty-eight."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 22, "text": "So you became famous for your romantic comedies in the '50s and '60s, but there was this image of you that became formed that the characters you played were kind of, you know, like, bland and a little stereotyped or something. But really when you look at the roles you played, like, you're a working woman and - you're an independent, single, working woman in some of those, like, really classic films. You know, like, in \"Pillow Talk\" in 1959 with Rock Hudson, you're an independent interior decorator. In \"Lover Come Back To Me,\" 1961 with Rock Hudson, you worked in the advertising industry. In \"Touch Of Mink\" with Cary Grant 1962, you're a career woman. So you know, you're actually playing these independent, working women.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Eighty-eight."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 23, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's what I was."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 24, "text": "For real, right. For real, you must have been pretty tough, actually.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For real."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 25, "text": "No?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I don't know."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 26, "text": "Did you get the sense that there was this, like, image of who Doris Day was that was sometimes not really who either your characters were or who you were?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know about being tough. But what we were doing was something that I was just loving. You know, I just loved my work. And whatever they wanted me to do, I wanted to do."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 27, "text": "Is that the way you saw it - playing yourself but as somebody else?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, I didn't. I just did what it wanted me to do. I didn't compare, in other words, and say, oh, God, I'm not like that. Whatever - when I read the script, the words told me what I was. And I neve"}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 28, "text": "Playing yourself as if you were in that position of your character.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Playing myself no matter what it was."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 29, "text": "What was the biggest stretch for you, the character most unlike you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. It had to be done like that. I had to say things like that. It was fine."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 30, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, they were all different, though I didn't feel different in any of them even though they were different. I loved, you know, being married, and I love not being married but working on it..."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 31, "text": "So you left the movies after 1968. Your last film was \"With Six You Get Eggroll.\" And it was the same year that your husband of the time died. Why did you leave movies then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And doing what I was supposed to do and be. That's the way I worked."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 32, "text": "But it didn't have to be, like, one or the other. You could have lived in Carmel and still made movies, maybe fewer movies. But you could have.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. I thought that I had done all the different things, and I loved doing them. And then I had a feeling of just quieting down. And I came out to Carmel, and it was so nice. You know, and I "}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 33, "text": "Where? Where did you keep them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I could have but I have so many dogs that I love dearly, and I was working and helping the SPCA. I was - I rented a place that I could have dogs not in my house. I rented a big place. And I was "}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 34, "text": "Oh, gosh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In my house."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 35, "text": "How many dogs was that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had a big, big house."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 36, "text": "Oh, my God, are you kidding?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, at once about 30."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 37, "text": "You kept them all.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, and I kept them."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 38, "text": "Thirty.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 39, "text": "How big was it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm hmm. Well, I had a big, big house here."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 40, "text": "Like, how many rooms?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 41, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my gosh - three upstairs, four upstairs, four downstairs - a lot of rooms."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 42, "text": "Wow. You really lived with a lot of dogs for a long time", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's so difficult. And then I had my own area in another spot. It was connected of course. And that was just perfect for me. Everything was right. It was good. And I could have as many dogs as I wante"}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 43, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's so difficult. And then I had my own area in another spot. It was connected of course. And that was just perfect for me. Everything was right. It was good. And I could have as many dogs as I wante"}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 44, "text": "So how many animals do you live with now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there was another area of the house, and they had a big run. They had a huge area to play. They were just fabulous, just fabulous. And I kept them all."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 45, "text": "I would have thought that was a lot. Now it seems like nothing", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Six."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 46, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Six."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 47, "text": "Are they dogs, or are any of them cats?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I can - well, I..."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 48, "text": "How many cats?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes, cats, too, lots of cats."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 49, "text": "Now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, God, maybe 10."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 50, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded with Doris Day in 2012. She died Monday at the age of 97. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I have lots of room. Oh, yeah. And they're in a special area in the house. They have an outdoor area. It's closed. They can't get out. But the ceiling is all glass, and they look up there, and the"}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 51, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're remembering Doris Day. She died Monday. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with her in 2012.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I have lots of room. Oh, yeah. And they're in a special area in the house. They have an outdoor area. It's closed. They can't get out. But the ceiling is all glass, and they look up there, and the"}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 52, "text": "So I want to confess something to you, which is when I was growing up, the first real big hit of yours that I knew was \"Que Sera, Sera,\" which you sing in \"The Man Who Knew Too Much,\" the Alfred Hitchcock film. And so my confession is that I didn't like it", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I have lots of room. Oh, yeah. And they're in a special area in the house. They have an outdoor area. It's closed. They can't get out. But the ceiling is all glass, and they look up there, and the"}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 53, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I have lots of room. Oh, yeah. And they're in a special area in the house. They have an outdoor area. It's closed. They can't get out. But the ceiling is all glass, and they look up there, and the"}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 54, "text": "That's what I read - that you didn't like it either and you didn't want - so I was so happy to read that. Tell me why you didn't like it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Me neither."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 55, "text": "For anybody who doesn't know the song, the lyric is que sera, sera, whatever will be will be. The future's not ours to see. Que sera, sera.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the first time that somebody told me it was going to be in that movie, I thought, why - 'cause the movie - you know how horrible it was toward the ending when our boy was kidnapped. And I didn't"}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 56, "text": "And just standing on its own as a song, did you like it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And I thought, I'm not crazy about that. Where are they going to put it? You know, for what? Is it when I put him in bed sometime and I sing that to him or something? I do that in another film. "}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 57, "text": "So how did you feel about that being - well, there's probably a No. 1 hit, and yet you didn't really like it very much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it isn't the kind of song that I like to sing."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 58, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I thought that was wonderful because I think it came - it became that because of children. And then I understood it because it was for the child, for our child in the movie."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 59, "text": "What is a favorite song of yours?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so then I - you know, I realized. So maybe it isn't a favorite song of mine, but people loved it, and kids loved it. And it was perfect for the film. So you know, I can't say that it's a favorite "}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 60, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I have too many."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 61, "text": "So I guess I just want to say thank you. Thank you for the interview. Thank you even more for your movies and your music. I'm so happy that I've had the chance to talk with you 'cause I know how little of this you do.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God, I loved - I love to sing love songs. And I like to sing others, too. But there are so many that I love. I just really love them, and I love singing them."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 62, "text": "Yes, it is", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm happy that I had a chance to talk to you, too, Terry. It is Terry, isn't it?"}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 63, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm happy that I had a chance to talk to you, too, Terry. It is Terry, isn't it?"}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 64, "text": "Oh, because that's your son's name, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's funny."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 65, "text": "Oh, thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're really good at what you do."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 66, "text": "Oh, that makes me so happy. Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I enjoyed it a lot. I really did."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 67, "text": "Thank you. Thank you. I wish you good health.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it's so nice to say hello to you and to know you."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 68, "text": "Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I wish you good health."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 69, "text": "My interview with Doris Day was recorded in April of 2012 and was originally broadcast one day before her 88th birthday. She died Monday at the age of 97.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I send my love to you."}
{"id": "723531128", "date": "2019-05-15", "guest": "Doris Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Legend Doris Day", "question_index": 70, "text": "Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guests will be journalist Katherine Eban, who's investigated the safety and effectiveness of the generic drugs many of us take. She says most generics are now made overseas, often in India and China. Although the manufacturers are supposed to meet the same standards as U.S. drug makers, she reports on troubling cases of forged records and unsanitary conditions. She's written a new book called \"Bottle Of Lies.\" I hope you can join us. I'm Terry Gross. [", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I'll never stop loving you. Whatever else I may do, my love for you will live 'til time itself is through. I'll never stop wanting you. And when forever is through, my heart will beat the wa"}
{"id": "724051595", "date": "2019-05-17", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Stephen McCauley, welcome back to FRESH AIR. I love the novel, and I want to start with a reading from the very beginning of it. Would you read the beginning of \"My Ex-Life\"?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, editor of the website TV Worth Watching, sitting in for Terry Gross. Today's guest, Stephen McCauley, is the author of the novel titled \"My Ex-Life,\" which just"}
{"id": "724051595", "date": "2019-05-17", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 1, "text": "That's Stephen McCauley reading for the opening of his new novel, \"My Ex-Life.\" Of course, Julie's life is nothing like what David imagines. Her marriage is ending. Her home by the ocean is falling apart. She wants to buy out her husband's half and can't afford to.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd love to. (Reading) No, it was not the happiest moment of David Hedge's life. Soren, his partner of five years, had left him. He'd gotten fat. And somewhere in the midst of that, he'd woken up one "}
{"id": "724051595", "date": "2019-05-17", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 2, "text": "It's, like, everything is a mess in her life. So when they come back together again because he's going to help her daughter with her college application, they redevelop the closeness they had when they were married, but without the pretense of a sexual relationship. What made you think about an ex-marriage becoming a different sort of partnership, one of deep friendship that is in some ways even more comfortable and enduring than the romantic, sexual loves that they've had in their lives?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd love to. (Reading) No, it was not the happiest moment of David Hedge's life. Soren, his partner of five years, had left him. He'd gotten fat. And somewhere in the midst of that, he'd woken up one "}
{"id": "724051595", "date": "2019-05-17", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Are you saying less sexual?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I think there were several things that made me think about that. I mean, one is just that it seems to me all relationships evolve as time goes on, even for people who stay together as a coup"}
{"id": "724051595", "date": "2019-05-17", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Do you see there being certain burdens of a relationship that are lifted, like, when they come back together not in a marriage relationship, but just in a deep friendship relationship?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But also, you know, several years ago there was a - and this is kind of a - but maybe a funny source of inspiration for a novel that's essentially comic, and I hope it comes off as being optimistic in"}
{"id": "724051595", "date": "2019-05-17", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 5, "text": "And there's a certain type of jealousy that will not be a part of their relationship.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think so. I think one of the struggles, for me, personally throughout my life with close relationships has been this fear of losing a piece of your identity because you're making - you know, it's in"}
{"id": "724051595", "date": "2019-05-17", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In theory."}
{"id": "724051595", "date": "2019-05-17", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I don't know if you can ever get rid of that entirely."}
{"id": "724051595", "date": "2019-05-17", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Since the premise of the novel is a marriage that ended 30 years ago because the husband came out as gay, then these two people reunite as very close friends and teammates, you know, partners in a different kind of way, do you know a lot of marriages that ended because one partner came out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, there's a scene in the novel where one of them - I can't remember, actually, which one it is, but I think it's Julie - goes off to see someone who she may or may not be having an affair with"}
{"id": "724051595", "date": "2019-05-17", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Were these people of different ages?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do. I know a surprising number of marriages that ended that way. At one point - I can't remember - it was probably 20 years ago, I was in a running group, you know, that would meet twice a week and "}
{"id": "724051595", "date": "2019-05-17", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 10, "text": "I'm wondering, you know, if it's easier for couples like that to stay friends afterwards because the divorce wasn't necessarily based on, like, you hurt me or you wronged me or I can't get along with you. It's like, oh, I realize I'm gay. You know? So I could see the door remaining more open in a situation like that. And I know relationships where the door has remained very open and the couple has remained friends even though the marriage dissolved, you know, where one partner came out as gay.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There were people of different ages. Mostly they were, you know, somewhere in the 35 to 55 range, I would say."}
{"id": "724051595", "date": "2019-05-17", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Stephen McCauley. And his new novel is called \"My Ex-Life.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. My observation is that that's often the case. And this group that I'm talking about, there were a number of people who had remained extremely close friends with their ex-wives. There is the oth"}
{"id": "724051595", "date": "2019-05-17", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is novelist Stephen McCauley, who's probably best-known for his novel \"The Object Of My Affection,\" which was adapted into a film that Jennifer Aniston starred in. His new novel, \"My Ex-Life,\" is about a couple who had been married 30 years ago until he - the husband, David - came out as gay. Now, for several reasons, they've come back together but this time as good friends and as allies. And what's brought them together is that he's a college adviser, and he's been asked to help the daughter, Mandy, with her college application and her college essay application. So the daughter in the novel, Mandy, is one of the girls who thinks that she's not really attractive. She's not popular. She has a lot of doubts about herself. And one of the characters speculates, like, this is the kind of girl who gets herself into trouble. And this is the kind of girl who a boy or a man can exploit. And that turns out to be true. What can you tell us that you feel comfortable giving away about how she is taken advantage of?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. My observation is that that's often the case. And this group that I'm talking about, there were a number of people who had remained extremely close friends with their ex-wives. There is the oth"}
{"id": "724051595", "date": "2019-05-17", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 13, "text": "So have you had experiences with students or young women who - or your friends, or the daughters of your friends who've done that and have - or have nearly - gotten themselves into trouble, or into a dangerous situation or, you know, been exploited in a way that, you know, was really damaging to them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Mandy, as you describe her, is someone who feels that - as many of us do, I think - that somewhere within us, we have this undiscovered talent and quality that makes us unique and makes us stand"}
{"id": "724051595", "date": "2019-05-17", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 14, "text": "You know, some of the men who chat with Mandy on the Internet, they want to talk about their illnesses...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, one of the things that is attractive about it to Mandy is that it allows her to be a different person when she is chatting online with anonymous men. It allows her to enter into a different "}
{"id": "724051595", "date": "2019-05-17", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 15, "text": "...With diabetes being at the top of the list.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "724051595", "date": "2019-05-17", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 16, "text": "Where did that come from? Have you heard that that happens a lot?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "724051595", "date": "2019-05-17", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Another issue in your novel has to do with renting out rooms.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I've heard - well, I heard from this student who worked on a phone sex line that a lot of times, you know, men just wanted to kind of talk about their problems and their issues and, albeit i"}
{"id": "724051595", "date": "2019-05-17", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 18, "text": "Julie wants to buy out her husband's half of the mortgage on their big, rambling, falling-apart, 19th-century home that was allegedly built by a sea captain, and she wants to rent out rooms. And the book jacket - the author bio on the book jacket of your novel \"My Ex-Life\" says you have several properties listed on Airbnb", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I've heard - well, I heard from this student who worked on a phone sex line that a lot of times, you know, men just wanted to kind of talk about their problems and their issues and, albeit i"}
{"id": "724051595", "date": "2019-05-17", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 19, "text": "in New York and Massachusetts. So what's your situation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I've heard - well, I heard from this student who worked on a phone sex line that a lot of times, you know, men just wanted to kind of talk about their problems and their issues and, albeit i"}
{"id": "724051595", "date": "2019-05-17", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 20, "text": "Whoa", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My situation is changing because regulations around short-term rentals are changing in Massachusetts, for example - in certain cities in Massachusetts. But, you know, I was very lucky. A few of my nov"}
{"id": "724051595", "date": "2019-05-17", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My situation is changing because regulations around short-term rentals are changing in Massachusetts, for example - in certain cities in Massachusetts. But, you know, I was very lucky. A few of my nov"}
{"id": "724051595", "date": "2019-05-17", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Of course, the reverse of that is true, too. The people who rent are putting themselves - especially if they're renting like a room in a family's home while the family is there - you're putting yourself in the hands of these people you don't know.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so there's that attitude. And at the same time, people are renting out rooms in their houses to complete strangers and sharing their most intimate spaces with them - their kitchens and their bathr"}
{"id": "724051595", "date": "2019-05-17", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Why can't you write in a place that you're familiar with like your home or one of your properties?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. No. I mean, and that's the way I travel, actually, because what's so crazy is that I bought this real estate to use it as a place to go write. Then I can't write there, so I have to rent it out."}
{"id": "724051595", "date": "2019-05-17", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 24, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know. I wish I knew, Terry. You'll have to talk to my shrink about that, but I don't think he knows either because he isn't able to help me. But I don't know. I think I have a very nice study in the"}
{"id": "724051595", "date": "2019-05-17", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 25, "text": "The first time we talked in 1996, we talked about how one of your characters - your main character - always felt like he was either too young and then he felt like he was too old. And he never felt like he was the right age. And you talked about how when you started teaching, you felt like you were too young to be an authority figure. And then at some point, you felt like you were too old in the sense that you had kind of bypassed the common reference points that you used to have with your students. Where are you now?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's 2018 interview with author Stephen McCauley. His latest novel, called \"My Ex-Life,\" has just come out in paperback"}
{"id": "724051595", "date": "2019-05-17", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 26, "text": "So you came out in the 1970s, when you were in your late teens.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm at the I-don't-care phase, you know, which is kind of a great phase to be in. I mean, I feel as if I actually feel - I mean, Terry, I hate to be so positive, but I feel as if I do have something t"}
{"id": "724051595", "date": "2019-05-17", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 27, "text": "And there are so many issues relating to, like, sexual orientation and gender identity that have changed over the years in terms of how they're expressed and how people identify themselves. And you're seeing that not just as, like, a person in the world but also as a professor at a university. And having been at universities for years, you've seen, like, you know, generations of students come and go and define themselves in different ways. There's a character in your new book, who's a college student, who goes by the name D - the letter D - and wants to be referred to as the gender-neutral they instead of he or she. That's a relatively new phenomenon - and, you know, the idea of, like, gender-neutral names and gender-neutral identity, and I'm wondering how you're processing that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "724051595", "date": "2019-05-17", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 28, "text": "I know.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a really good question. Its a really big question right now in academia, especially..."}
{"id": "724051595", "date": "2019-05-17", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 29, "text": "So in addition to your novels written under your name, Stephen McCauley, you've written a couple of yoga novels under...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I guess, you know, for me as a teacher, I am really happy to call my students whatever pronouns they want to be called by. I had a student recently who wanted to be called it. And I said"}
{"id": "724051595", "date": "2019-05-17", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 30, "text": "...The name Rain Mitchell.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "724051595", "date": "2019-05-17", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 31, "text": "I've seen them referred to as yoga novels. I'm not sure what a...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "724051595", "date": "2019-05-17", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 32, "text": "...Yoga novel is. Is the main character a yoga instructor?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "724051595", "date": "2019-05-17", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 33, "text": "Why is it more liberating?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's it. That's what makes it a yoga novel. There are two novels and - that Rain Mitchell wrote. And they're set at a yoga studio in the Silver Lake neighborhood of Los Angeles. And most of the main"}
{"id": "724051595", "date": "2019-05-17", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 34, "text": "Was it also...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's a complete lack of self-consciousness about anyone reading it and judging it, even though I knew that, you know, some people would know that I had written it. And - I don't know. I think I jus"}
{"id": "724051595", "date": "2019-05-17", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Yeah, go ahead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One of..."}
{"id": "724051595", "date": "2019-05-17", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 36, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...People who are like, you know, dating a stand-in for Derek Jeter..."}
{"id": "724051595", "date": "2019-05-17", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 37, "text": "Why did you choose the name Rain Mitchell as your pseudonym?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I mean, you know, auditioning for a Beyonce video. You know, and I just kind of went into this, you know, without any hesitation. And it was really fun to do. And when I finished that project, I tr"}
{"id": "724051595", "date": "2019-05-17", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 38, "text": "Wait. Wait. Why was that important?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think because - well, first of all, the publisher wanted something that could be male or female. And..."}
{"id": "724051595", "date": "2019-05-17", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 39, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know - because, very quickly, they changed it to, OK, Rain Mitchell is a woman. And, you know, I had to write all these blog posts as Rain Mitchell..."}
{"id": "724051595", "date": "2019-05-17", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 40, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And about her experiences and her life. And she kind of had like the ideal family life and the supportive mother who encouraged her to..."}
{"id": "724051595", "date": "2019-05-17", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 41, "text": "What are the covers like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Write and to read. And so, you know, basically everything that I didn't have, you know, I gave to this character, essentially, that I was creating. And I've always been a huge fan of Joni Mitchell,"}
{"id": "724051595", "date": "2019-05-17", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 42, "text": "So I want to end with some music. I'm always interested in the music that your characters like in your novels. I remember talking about - talking with you about Lee Wiley, the jazz singer from the '30s through, I guess, the '50s, who one of your main characters from an earlier book really loved. And in your new novel, \"My Ex-Life,\" one of the main characters loves French singers including Francoise Hardy. I thought we'd end with something from her. My introduction to her was in the film \"Moonrise Kingdom,\" the Wes Anderson film because the two kids who are the main characters from that movie run away together. And there's a scene on the beach where they have a portable record player, and they're playing the Francoise Hardy song \"Le Temps De 'Lamour.\" And as they play it, they dance and then kiss. And they've never really kissed before, so it's a really - it's a lovely scene. What's your favorite Francoise Hardy track that you'd like us to end with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They vary greatly from, you know, like, someone doing yoga in high heels on a yoga mat because the idea behind the books was \"Sex And The City\" at a yoga studio. You know, five women in a yoga studio."}
{"id": "724051595", "date": "2019-05-17", "guest": "Stephen Mccauley", "title": "Novelist Stephen McCauley Embraces Life On A 'Small, Everyday Scale'", "question_index": 43, "text": "Good. Let's end with that. Stephen McCauley, it's been great. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think my favorite is called \"L'amitie,\" which is - means friendship. And it has some of those same qualities of kind of being wistful and melancholy but at the same time joyful. And because it's abo"}
{"id": "725366912", "date": "2019-05-21", "guest": "Tia Powell", "title": "'Dementia Reimagined' Asks: Can There Be Happiness For Those With Memory Loss?", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. There's no cure for dementia, and there's unlikely to be one in the foreseeable future, which is why my guest, Dr. Tia Powell, is focusing on questions like, how can we devise a viable strategy to pay for long-term care? How do we preserve dignity? How do we balance freedom and safety? What is a good death for someone with dementia? And how do we help people who are losing their memory find some joy? Powell is the author of the new book \"Dementia Reimagined.\" She is the director of the Montefiore Einstein Center for Bioethics and is a professor of psychiatry and bioethics at Albert Einstein College of Medicine. Some of her knowledge about dementia comes from having taken care of her mother when she had dementia. Powell's grandmother had dementia, too. Dr. Tia Powell, welcome to FRESH AIR. There is a story in your book that you tell about when your mother was taking care of your grandmother, and your grandmother had dementia. And I want you to tell this story to our listeners. It's a story about how your mother takes your grandmother outside on a beautiful day, seats her in a comfortable chair with an afghan covering her. Tell us the story.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "725366912", "date": "2019-05-21", "guest": "Tia Powell", "title": "'Dementia Reimagined' Asks: Can There Be Happiness For Those With Memory Loss?", "question_index": 1, "text": "I think that story is really important too because it shows how emotionally challenging it could be when your loved one has dementia and is not appreciating what you're doing for them. And not only that, they're sometimes, like, fighting you or insulting you as you're giving all your time trying to help them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I mean, does it - I mean, yes, dementia's lousy. Cancer's lousy. Serious illness is lousy. But isn't there something more we can do here? Is there a way we could think about this? Is there a way you"}
{"id": "725366912", "date": "2019-05-21", "guest": "Tia Powell", "title": "'Dementia Reimagined' Asks: Can There Be Happiness For Those With Memory Loss?", "question_index": 2, "text": "People think of memory loss as the defining and the worst symptom of dementia. And you say it's really not the worst. So what is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's really tough. It's tough on all sides. Figuring out how to communicate better, how to listen better to people with dementia while they can speak and even potentially afterward to figure out"}
{"id": "725366912", "date": "2019-05-21", "guest": "Tia Powell", "title": "'Dementia Reimagined' Asks: Can There Be Happiness For Those With Memory Loss?", "question_index": 3, "text": "True.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "..."}
{"id": "725366912", "date": "2019-05-21", "guest": "Tia Powell", "title": "'Dementia Reimagined' Asks: Can There Be Happiness For Those With Memory Loss?", "question_index": 4, "text": "But I was thinking more of the - like, the depression and paranoia and anxiety...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...It might be the worst for somebody. But dementia is really complicated. It's certainly not only memory loss. It's a loss of executive function, the capacity to make organized decisions. You know, y"}
{"id": "725366912", "date": "2019-05-21", "guest": "Tia Powell", "title": "'Dementia Reimagined' Asks: Can There Be Happiness For Those With Memory Loss?", "question_index": 5, "text": "...And wandering. And I was wondering, like, why do - depression I guess I can understand coming along with dementia, but why paranoia? Why the anxiety? Why the wandering? Do we understand, like, the roots of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, all of that. Yeah."}
{"id": "725366912", "date": "2019-05-21", "guest": "Tia Powell", "title": "'Dementia Reimagined' Asks: Can There Be Happiness For Those With Memory Loss?", "question_index": 6, "text": "Your mother and your father died at the same age.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "the roots of all that. And even depression - you know, we think, well, that makes sense. It's kind of a rotten spot you're in. But being in a rotten spot doesn't actually correlate all that well with "}
{"id": "725366912", "date": "2019-05-21", "guest": "Tia Powell", "title": "'Dementia Reimagined' Asks: Can There Be Happiness For Those With Memory Loss?", "question_index": 7, "text": "Eighty-five, yeah. So your father died a few years before your mother. And he had kidney cancer. Your mother was already in, I think, the early stages of dementia when he died. And so when she died, she was a widow. Her children, like you, were grown, so she was living alone. And so I think she wanted to go to an assisted living facility. She wanted some kind of social connection, but there were problems that that presented as well. So I'd liked you - as just a case study here - to talk about some of the advantages and disadvantages for your mother in an assisted living facility with dementia.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Eighty-five."}
{"id": "725366912", "date": "2019-05-21", "guest": "Tia Powell", "title": "'Dementia Reimagined' Asks: Can There Be Happiness For Those With Memory Loss?", "question_index": 8, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is bioethicist Dr. Tia Powell. She's the author of the new book \"Dementia Reimagined.\" So we're going to take a short break. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So this is one of the hard lessons for me in thinking that as a medical school professor, I should know about all of this. I should be a real ace here. And discovering the, you know - not for the firs"}
{"id": "725366912", "date": "2019-05-21", "guest": "Tia Powell", "title": "'Dementia Reimagined' Asks: Can There Be Happiness For Those With Memory Loss?", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Dr. Tia Powell. She's the director of the Montefiore Einstein Center for Bioethics and the author of the new book \"Dementia Reimagined: Building A Life Of Joy And Dignity From Beginning To End.\" So one of the problems your mother faced - and I think this is typical of people who are in assisted living or in nursing homes in the latter part of their lives - is that she had to get transferred several times from assisted living to the emergency room or to the hospital, you know, back and forth. And it ends up being a downward cycle. And you talk about how stressful that is for patients in general, but maybe particularly for people with dementia. Why is that more stressful for people with dementia?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So this is one of the hard lessons for me in thinking that as a medical school professor, I should know about all of this. I should be a real ace here. And discovering the, you know - not for the firs"}
{"id": "725366912", "date": "2019-05-21", "guest": "Tia Powell", "title": "'Dementia Reimagined' Asks: Can There Be Happiness For Those With Memory Loss?", "question_index": 10, "text": "So what is the stage of dementia in which you think maybe you shouldn't go for the hospital of pneumonia care, maybe it's best to just stay at home or in the facility that you're in and get some antibiotics, if you can, and just be comfortable? Are you talking about, like, the very, very end stage or, like, where? 'Cause that's such a difficult judgment call to make, and the patient can't really make it because they're cognitively impaired.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So when you take a frail, older person with dementia - and most people with dementia are frail elders with lots of other medical illnesses and, you know, arthritis. And you're 85. And it's reall"}
{"id": "725366912", "date": "2019-05-21", "guest": "Tia Powell", "title": "'Dementia Reimagined' Asks: Can There Be Happiness For Those With Memory Loss?", "question_index": 11, "text": "So you're saying it's helpful if you're in the early stages of dementia to write a good advance directive for what you want in the final stages. How do you know you're in the early stages of dementia? 'Cause I think that a lot of people who are over 50 or 60 or 65 or in their 70s think that they're in the early stages of dementia because they don't remember things as well as they used to, but not remembering things as well as you used to is a standard sign that you're getting older. It doesn't necessarily mean you have dementia. And, you know, so how do you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Dementia, you know, like all diseases, it's been carefully studied and broken up into - by doctors into different stages. So there's an end stage of dementia where there's various criteria. So at that"}
{"id": "725366912", "date": "2019-05-21", "guest": "Tia Powell", "title": "'Dementia Reimagined' Asks: Can There Be Happiness For Those With Memory Loss?", "question_index": 12, "text": "You strongly believe that since there is no cure for dementia. And there is unlikely to be any in the near future. And even if there was, a lot of people have already started to develop it, whether they're symptomatic or not, so the cure would maybe be too late for them anyway, so we'd better find ways - like, better ways - of dealing with the long process of dementia. And you're hoping that we'll be able to find ways that can add some joy or increase the joy of people who have dementia. And we're not talking about, like, end-stage dementia. We're talking about the steps toward that end stage. What are some of the things you've been thinking about that can add some joy in life even if you're losing your memory and things that you're thinking, like, you'd like to have if you end up having dementia?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So there is absolutely normal cognitive aging. If you really want to know if you have dementia, you can go talk to a geriatrician or - if you're at the right age for that - or get cognitive tes"}
{"id": "725366912", "date": "2019-05-21", "guest": "Tia Powell", "title": "'Dementia Reimagined' Asks: Can There Be Happiness For Those With Memory Loss?", "question_index": 13, "text": "My guest is bioethicist and psychiatrist Dr. Tia Powell, author of the new book \"Dementia Reimagined.\" After a break, we'll talk about the dilemma she faced when her mother had dementia. Should she be given a pacemaker to prolong her life? And Justin Chang will review the new film \"The Souvenir.\" I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "stands up to dementia. So that's why there's a wonderful program developed by a man named Dan Cohen called Music and Memory where he goes around to nursing homes and tries to build playlists for peopl"}
{"id": "725366912", "date": "2019-05-21", "guest": "Tia Powell", "title": "'Dementia Reimagined' Asks: Can There Be Happiness For Those With Memory Loss?", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Dr. Tia Powell, author of the new book \"Dementia Reimagined.\" She writes about issues pertaining to long-term care, preserving dignity and helping the person with dementia find some joy. And she reflects on the question, what is a good death for someone with dementia? Powell is the director of the Montefiore Einstein Center for Bioethics, and she's a professor of psychiatry and bioethics at Albert Einstein College of Medicine. So as we were discussing earlier, your mother and your grandmother had dementia. And the doctors wanted you to decide whether your mother should get a pacemaker. And this was a really big and important decision. And I'm sure a lot of our listeners have been through this or will go through this. Your grandmother had a pacemaker when she had dementia, and you had a lot of second thoughts about that. What went wrong with your grandmother having a pacemaker?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "stands up to dementia. So that's why there's a wonderful program developed by a man named Dan Cohen called Music and Memory where he goes around to nursing homes and tries to build playlists for peopl"}
{"id": "725366912", "date": "2019-05-21", "guest": "Tia Powell", "title": "'Dementia Reimagined' Asks: Can There Be Happiness For Those With Memory Loss?", "question_index": 15, "text": "They shouldn't have kept her alive to just experience discomfort on the way toward death?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When my grandmother had six kids, the doctor approached them and said, she has dementia and she has heart block. She has to get a pacer. And they went, OK. And they all regretted it. And I think she d"}
{"id": "725366912", "date": "2019-05-21", "guest": "Tia Powell", "title": "'Dementia Reimagined' Asks: Can There Be Happiness For Those With Memory Loss?", "question_index": 16, "text": "So why is it so hard to turn off a pacemaker - ethically hard,", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But basically, if you're going to die and somebody says, you shouldn't die of this, who are they to say that? Maybe the this that's on offer is way better than the that that's facing you in the futu"}
{"id": "725366912", "date": "2019-05-21", "guest": "Tia Powell", "title": "'Dementia Reimagined' Asks: Can There Be Happiness For Those With Memory Loss?", "question_index": 17, "text": ", to turn off a pacemaker in a patient who is actively dying of dementia?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But basically, if you're going to die and somebody says, you shouldn't die of this, who are they to say that? Maybe the this that's on offer is way better than the that that's facing you in the futu"}
{"id": "725366912", "date": "2019-05-21", "guest": "Tia Powell", "title": "'Dementia Reimagined' Asks: Can There Be Happiness For Those With Memory Loss?", "question_index": 18, "text": "They'll be afraid of being sued, also. Right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's a psychological issue. It is, in fact, technically unbelievably easy to turn off a pacemaker. You just sort of wave a little wand, in effect, a kind of magic wand, and it shuts down the b"}
{"id": "725366912", "date": "2019-05-21", "guest": "Tia Powell", "title": "'Dementia Reimagined' Asks: Can There Be Happiness For Those With Memory Loss?", "question_index": 19, "text": "I think the feeding tube question has become a big and profoundly difficult question for families of people who have dementia. And first of all, explain, like, why do people in final stages of dementia stop being able to eat or swallow?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They're afraid of being sued. But, actually - of course, that's the reality, but I don't actually think that's the most powerful lever here. I think the most powerful lever is some kind of understandi"}
{"id": "725366912", "date": "2019-05-21", "guest": "Tia Powell", "title": "'Dementia Reimagined' Asks: Can There Be Happiness For Those With Memory Loss?", "question_index": 20, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Dr. Tia Powell. She is the director of the Montefiore Einstein Center for Bioethics and the author of the new book \"Dementia Reimagined.\" We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So dementia is a brain disease, as we said earlier. It's not just memory. It has physiologic effects. Your brain is the control tower of the whole operation. And as it deteriorates, you're not "}
{"id": "725366912", "date": "2019-05-21", "guest": "Tia Powell", "title": "'Dementia Reimagined' Asks: Can There Be Happiness For Those With Memory Loss?", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Dr. Tia Powell, director of the Montefiore Einstein Center for Bioethics and author of the new book \"Dementia Reimagined.\" A lot of health care is determined by where are the profits and where are the losses. And you say some nursing homes are getting out of the long treatment business and moving instead to short-term care. What are the financial reasons behind that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So dementia is a brain disease, as we said earlier. It's not just memory. It has physiologic effects. Your brain is the control tower of the whole operation. And as it deteriorates, you're not "}
{"id": "725366912", "date": "2019-05-21", "guest": "Tia Powell", "title": "'Dementia Reimagined' Asks: Can There Be Happiness For Those With Memory Loss?", "question_index": 22, "text": "But that's the thing. A lot of people who are middle class choose to become poor in order to qualify for Medicaid so that they could be in a nursing home that they otherwise wouldn't be able to afford.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Medicare, which is the government health plan that takes care primarily of the elderly, pays better than Medicaid, which is a state and federal kind of partnership program that helps pay for care f"}
{"id": "725366912", "date": "2019-05-21", "guest": "Tia Powell", "title": "'Dementia Reimagined' Asks: Can There Be Happiness For Those With Memory Loss?", "question_index": 23, "text": "Of course, there's the option of home health care aides, but, you know, the paradox there is that it's extraordinarily expensive to have a home health care aide on a daily basis. And a lot of people really need it on a daily basis. And even if your spouse is there, if your spouse isn't strong enough to lift you out of bed and get you to, you know, a commode or a bathroom, you need help. You need somebody who's going to be able to do that. But the aides are paid as if they're totally unskilled and not respected. On the other hand, you pay a fortune to hire them. And the difference is usually, like, the agency that is hiring the aide and that you're working through to get the aide, they make - I think they make a fairly decent profit. But the people doing the work, from what I can tell, are very underpaid, and they don't get any benefits. So, like, that's the - that's a dilemma that I don't see anybody trying to fix.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, but that's a dwindling option. So Medicaid budgets make up a big chunk of a lot of state budgets. And the states are trying to drive down that Medicaid budget. So even though lots of people in t"}
{"id": "725366912", "date": "2019-05-21", "guest": "Tia Powell", "title": "'Dementia Reimagined' Asks: Can There Be Happiness For Those With Memory Loss?", "question_index": 24, "text": "Absolutely. And you have to know how to do that to a person without, like, dislocating their shoulder. I've seen people do such a...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There are some people working on it, but I don't think that - no one would argue that we have fixed it. By the way, I don't find it so unskilled. I don't know if you've ever had the occasion to try an"}
{"id": "725366912", "date": "2019-05-21", "guest": "Tia Powell", "title": "'Dementia Reimagined' Asks: Can There Be Happiness For Those With Memory Loss?", "question_index": 25, "text": "Or yours. I've seen people do such a kind of terrible job knowing - and I know, like, they're really hurting the person. But a really good home health care aide who's experienced and has some training can do all that without causing any harm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Or yours."}
{"id": "725366912", "date": "2019-05-21", "guest": "Tia Powell", "title": "'Dementia Reimagined' Asks: Can There Be Happiness For Those With Memory Loss?", "question_index": 26, "text": "So when it comes to writing an advanced directive, a living will, what advice do you have so that it's specific enough so that people really know what you want and that they don't have to have, like, long family fights interpreting a vague directive?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, this is a really big issue, and it's kind of a scandal actually. There are many, many people - the vast majority of them are women. Many are women of color. Many are immigrants. This is "}
{"id": "725366912", "date": "2019-05-21", "guest": "Tia Powell", "title": "'Dementia Reimagined' Asks: Can There Be Happiness For Those With Memory Loss?", "question_index": 27, "text": "Of course, you don't necessarily know what you're going to be dying of when you write your advanced directive.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "725366912", "date": "2019-05-21", "guest": "Tia Powell", "title": "'Dementia Reimagined' Asks: Can There Be Happiness For Those With Memory Loss?", "question_index": 28, "text": "So this is a tough question to answer now. But since your mother and grandmother had dementia and you're concerned about the possibility of having it yourself in the future, you have two adult children. What role would you want them to play? What role wouldn't you want them to play in your health care if you get dementia?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It's - there's no informed consent. You're asked to comment on stuff that - you don't know what things we're talking - we don't know what intervention we're talking about and what the risks or benef"}
{"id": "725366912", "date": "2019-05-21", "guest": "Tia Powell", "title": "'Dementia Reimagined' Asks: Can There Be Happiness For Those With Memory Loss?", "question_index": 29, "text": "Dr. Powell, I want to thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the last thing I want is really to ruin the lives of my children. And it would be horrible to me to think of my two kids who are, you know, really kind of loving adulthood and, you know, working"}
{"id": "725366912", "date": "2019-05-21", "guest": "Tia Powell", "title": "'Dementia Reimagined' Asks: Can There Be Happiness For Those With Memory Loss?", "question_index": 30, "text": "Dr. Tia Powell is the author of the new book \"Dementia Reimagined.\" After a break, Justin Chang will review the new film \"The Souvenir.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's been a real pleasure. Thanks so much for having me."}
{"id": "725690611", "date": "2019-05-22", "guest": "Danny Hakim", "title": "Journalist Chronicles The 'Power Struggle' Within The NRA", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The NRA, which has, for decades, been regarded as an unstoppable, powerful, political force, is now being torn by internal conflicts. A power struggle at the top of the leadership came to a head last month at the NRA's annual convention. Leaked documents have revealed the CEO's extravagant spending on clothes and travel with the use of NRA money. The NRA is suing its own advertising PR company. Its revenues are falling, and its tax-exempt status is being investigated by the New York state attorney general. My guest is New York Times investigative reporter Danny Hakim, who has been writing about these and other issues regarding the NRA. Danny Hakim, welcome to FRESH AIR. So last month at the NRA convention, a kind of civil war broke out. Paint a picture for us. What went on?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "725690611", "date": "2019-05-22", "guest": "Danny Hakim", "title": "Journalist Chronicles The 'Power Struggle' Within The NRA", "question_index": 1, "text": "So Oliver North threatened to expose financial misspending within the NRA. And soon after, leaked documents exposing just that kind of thing were published on a website. So what were the documents revealing? What are some of the most telling things that were revealed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, a day or two before the convention started, Oliver North, who was the president of the NRA at the time, called an aide to Wayne LaPierre, who was the CEO - who is the CEO of the NRA, and said th"}
{"id": "725690611", "date": "2019-05-22", "guest": "Danny Hakim", "title": "Journalist Chronicles The 'Power Struggle' Within The NRA", "question_index": 2, "text": "This is of NRA money, not of his personal money.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Mr. LaPierre spent about $275,000 at a clothing boutique in Beverly Hills."}
{"id": "725690611", "date": "2019-05-22", "guest": "Danny Hakim", "title": "Journalist Chronicles The 'Power Struggle' Within The NRA", "question_index": 3, "text": "And again, this was NRA-related money not his personal money.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was billed to a contractor of the NRA, which is then, ultimately, paid by the NRA. He also spent about $260,000 on personal expenses, including air and limo charges for travel to the Bahamas,"}
{"id": "725690611", "date": "2019-05-22", "guest": "Danny Hakim", "title": "Journalist Chronicles The 'Power Struggle' Within The NRA", "question_index": 4, "text": "And there's also questions about money that the NRA has given to executives.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that's right. That's right. You know, it was paid by the NRA contractor. But ultimately, you know, it's on the NRA's dime. So that - you know, those are the kinds of details that came out."}
{"id": "725690611", "date": "2019-05-22", "guest": "Danny Hakim", "title": "Journalist Chronicles The 'Power Struggle' Within The NRA", "question_index": 5, "text": "So meanwhile, Oliver North threatened to expose the NRA's finances if Wayne LaPierre didn't step down. But there are questions surrounding how Oliver North was paid when he was president of the NRA. So let's talk about that for a minute because the president position was typically a ceremonial position where there wasn't any pay. And how much was Oliver North getting while he was president?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. Yeah, some of the other details were money that went to board members and high-ranking officials. So, you know, Marion Hammer, who's a board member, who's been a lobbyist for the NRA in "}
{"id": "725690611", "date": "2019-05-22", "guest": "Danny Hakim", "title": "Journalist Chronicles The 'Power Struggle' Within The NRA", "question_index": 6, "text": "Wayne LaPierre is making a very hefty salary, and it's increased a lot over the past few years. Can you tell us about his salary?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, LaPierre has said that he was making millions of dollars - that North was making millions of dollars a year from a contractor - Ackerman McQueen - to host a web show called American - I believe "}
{"id": "725690611", "date": "2019-05-22", "guest": "Danny Hakim", "title": "Journalist Chronicles The 'Power Struggle' Within The NRA", "question_index": 7, "text": "Well, the NRA's tax-exempt status is being challenged right now in New York. The NRA was chartered in New York, so the New York state attorney general has some power here. What is she, Letitia James, investigating regarding its tax-exempt status?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. He makes around $1.4 million a year. In 2015, his total pay went over $5 million because of an early retirement payout. You know, and I think - you know, part of the question there is this is a "}
{"id": "725690611", "date": "2019-05-22", "guest": "Danny Hakim", "title": "Journalist Chronicles The 'Power Struggle' Within The NRA", "question_index": 8, "text": "But there's also the question of, is the NRA improperly transferring money from its charitable arm to its political arm? Tell us about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think there's a few principal areas of inquiry. One will be any potential benefits that executives like Mr. LaPierre or any other high-ranking executives might be getting from contractors or f"}
{"id": "725690611", "date": "2019-05-22", "guest": "Danny Hakim", "title": "Journalist Chronicles The 'Power Struggle' Within The NRA", "question_index": 9, "text": "How is the money moving from the charitable arm to the NRA?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. So the attorney general of New York is also looking at the charitable foundation. They sort of - they sent separate letters to the NRA and the foundation. Now, what - you know, what I've found i"}
{"id": "725690611", "date": "2019-05-22", "guest": "Danny Hakim", "title": "Journalist Chronicles The 'Power Struggle' Within The NRA", "question_index": 10, "text": "So is the NRA's tax-exempt status at risk because of this New York state attorney general investigation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I found at least four ways that that's happening. And, again, there could be more. It's not always - you know, it's not always clear. But there are outright transfers of - for charitable purpose"}
{"id": "725690611", "date": "2019-05-22", "guest": "Danny Hakim", "title": "Journalist Chronicles The 'Power Struggle' Within The NRA", "question_index": 11, "text": "But if they lost their tax-exempt status, how punishing would that be?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's hard to answer. I mean, I think the attorney general in New York can take any number of steps - remedies - seek any number of remedies in court when it investigates a tax-exempt group. Certainl"}
{"id": "725690611", "date": "2019-05-22", "guest": "Danny Hakim", "title": "Journalist Chronicles The 'Power Struggle' Within The NRA", "question_index": 12, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is New York Times investigative reporter Danny Hakim. We'll talk more about the NRA after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that would be very punishing. I mean, that would really constrain the group's financial resources. Obviously, if you have to start paying taxes, that changes your whole financial profile."}
{"id": "725690611", "date": "2019-05-22", "guest": "Danny Hakim", "title": "Journalist Chronicles The 'Power Struggle' Within The NRA", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're talking about the NRA and a kind of civil war within it with Danny Hakim, who's an investigative reporter for The New York Times. Another area in which the NRA is embattled right now is the NRA is suing the PR and advertising company that it's used for decades, Ackerman McQueen. And the NRA's saying Ackerman McQueen has refused the NRA's request to turn over financial records pertaining to its work with the NRA. Tell us more about the relationship between the NRA and Ackerman McQueen. What has Ackerman McQueen done for the NRA over the years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that would be very punishing. I mean, that would really constrain the group's financial resources. Obviously, if you have to start paying taxes, that changes your whole financial profile."}
{"id": "725690611", "date": "2019-05-22", "guest": "Danny Hakim", "title": "Journalist Chronicles The 'Power Struggle' Within The NRA", "question_index": 14, "text": "And Ackerman created NRATV, which is a streaming channel on the web - very controversial, very, very far right. Tell us some of the more extreme things that have been said or shown on that channel.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "These two organizations have really been intertwined. The Ackerman has given the NRA its voice for decades, going back to the I'm the NRA campaign of the 1980s. They also worked a lot with Charlton He"}
{"id": "725690611", "date": "2019-05-22", "guest": "Danny Hakim", "title": "Journalist Chronicles The 'Power Struggle' Within The NRA", "question_index": 15, "text": "Why were the \"Thomas\" trains in KKK hoods?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah, and Ackerman not only created, they operate NRATV. But, you know, the kinds of things that appear on there, you know, they'll go, you know, far beyond sort of gun issues. They've attacked "}
{"id": "725690611", "date": "2019-05-22", "guest": "Danny Hakim", "title": "Journalist Chronicles The 'Power Struggle' Within The NRA", "question_index": 16, "text": "So the NRA is suing Ackerman because Ackerman won't turn over related financial records - financial records related to the NRA. Why wouldn't they turn it over?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think they had some kind of problem with the show trying to diversify some of the trains. So I guess they were trying to be funny or something. And so that's what led to that. I guess I don't want t"}
{"id": "725690611", "date": "2019-05-22", "guest": "Danny Hakim", "title": "Journalist Chronicles The 'Power Struggle' Within The NRA", "question_index": 17, "text": "One of the things that the NRA wanted from Ackerman was the metrics to see, like, how many people are actually watching NRATV? Ackerman didn't turn over the metrics, but you tried to find out what the metrics were. What did you learn?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the fear, you know, among some NRA officials is that they've been getting overbilled. Otherwise, why wouldn't Ackerman just turn over its financial records of, you know, its - you know, one of i"}
{"id": "725690611", "date": "2019-05-22", "guest": "Danny Hakim", "title": "Journalist Chronicles The 'Power Struggle' Within The NRA", "question_index": 18, "text": "So if the NRA is in conflict now and is, in fact, suing its own marketing advertising PR company, what's the larger significance of that in terms of the future of the NRA?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. I mean, I went to Comscore, which is a company - a well-known company that tracks web traffic. And what I found is that the NRA's TV traffic is really very small. In January, they had just 49,0"}
{"id": "725690611", "date": "2019-05-22", "guest": "Danny Hakim", "title": "Journalist Chronicles The 'Power Struggle' Within The NRA", "question_index": 19, "text": "I think there's bound to be leadership changes at the NRA. Wayne LaPierre - I don't know how old he is, but he's been the CEO for decades. And, you know, his leadership was threatened by Oliver North. Wayne LaPierre won. but still, things are so in conflict now within the NRA, and he's bound to retire sometime soon. Any sense of what direction the NRA might head post-Wayne LaPierre?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, a few things. First of all, it looks like the, you know, the relationship between the two organizations is probably untenable at this point, which means that the future of NRATV, which has reall"}
{"id": "725690611", "date": "2019-05-22", "guest": "Danny Hakim", "title": "Journalist Chronicles The 'Power Struggle' Within The NRA", "question_index": 20, "text": "My guest is New York Times investigative reporter Danny Hakim. We'll talk more about the NRA after a break. TV critic David Bianculli will look ahead to tonight's live broadcast recreating episodes of two vintage Norman Lear sitcoms - \"All In The Family\" and \"The Jeffersons.\" And Kevin Whitehead will review Branford Marsalis' new album. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Chris Cox, the number two is, you know, is sort of part of a younger generation of leadership. And I think he's - he would be anticipated to take over whenever LaPierre does eventually step down"}
{"id": "725690611", "date": "2019-05-22", "guest": "Danny Hakim", "title": "Journalist Chronicles The 'Power Struggle' Within The NRA", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with New York Times investigative reporter Danny Hakim about the turmoil in the NRA. A power struggle at the top led to last month's ouster of the organization's president, Oliver North, and the reelection of its longtime CEO, Wayne LaPierre. Leaked documents have revealed LaPierre's extravagant spending on clothes and travel with the use of NRA money. The NRA is suing its own advertising PR company. The NRA's revenues are falling. And its tax exempt - status is being investigated by the New York state attorney general. Was it LaPierre who took the NRA from being basically, like, a sporting - you know, a sporting group and gun education group to becoming this big political force?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Chris Cox, the number two is, you know, is sort of part of a younger generation of leadership. And I think he's - he would be anticipated to take over whenever LaPierre does eventually step down"}
{"id": "725690611", "date": "2019-05-22", "guest": "Danny Hakim", "title": "Journalist Chronicles The 'Power Struggle' Within The NRA", "question_index": 22, "text": "Do you have any idea how aware the NRA membership, the dues-paying membership, how aware they are of these battles happening within the NRA and the investigations into the NRA, from - you know, from New York State? And if they are aware of it, do you have any idea of how it's affecting the morale of the membership?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah. He's been a central figure in that. I wouldn't say he's the only one. But in the late '70s, you know, one of the last sort of battles like this the NRA had - you know, there was actually -"}
{"id": "725690611", "date": "2019-05-22", "guest": "Danny Hakim", "title": "Journalist Chronicles The 'Power Struggle' Within The NRA", "question_index": 23, "text": "NPR recently reported that staff members within the NRA are complaining about low wages, pension problems and a culture of fear within the NRA, and that the organization treats ordinary staff very differently than its leadership. Have you noticed anything like that? Have you been reporting on that yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", on the display floor there. So it's a little hard to tell. I mean, there are - you know, there are a lot of sort of loud voices within the NRA on the various sides. It does seem like LaPierre had a "}
{"id": "725690611", "date": "2019-05-22", "guest": "Danny Hakim", "title": "Journalist Chronicles The 'Power Struggle' Within The NRA", "question_index": 24, "text": "So one of the issues that Oliver North raised when he was still president of the NRA was that the NRA had spent $24 million in legal bills, in legal fees paid to its outside attorney. So that's - that was an exorbitant amount of money. So what - have you investigated that, like, what looks possibly suspicious about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", and things that small. So I think there is definitely - and I've talked to lower-level staffers that have been - that are rankled by, you know, and angry about the spending practices at the top."}
{"id": "725690611", "date": "2019-05-22", "guest": "Danny Hakim", "title": "Journalist Chronicles The 'Power Struggle' Within The NRA", "question_index": 25, "text": "That Oliver North works for.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, he - I think that - you know, one of the figures that he put out there to the board was that the - you know, the NRA's spending something like almost $100,000 a day, over a year, on its law fi"}
{"id": "725690611", "date": "2019-05-22", "guest": "Danny Hakim", "title": "Journalist Chronicles The 'Power Struggle' Within The NRA", "question_index": 26, "text": "It all seems so incestuous, you know. So, like, Oliver North, who was president, had a contract", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "to be spending on an outside law firm."}
{"id": "725690611", "date": "2019-05-22", "guest": "Danny Hakim", "title": "Journalist Chronicles The 'Power Struggle' Within The NRA", "question_index": 27, "text": "with the PR advertising company. The lawyer is the son-in-law of the CEO of the advertising company, the lawyer who's -", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "to be spending on an outside law firm."}
{"id": "725690611", "date": "2019-05-22", "guest": "Danny Hakim", "title": "Journalist Chronicles The 'Power Struggle' Within The NRA", "question_index": 28, "text": "who's representing the NRA.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "to be spending on an outside law firm."}
{"id": "725690611", "date": "2019-05-22", "guest": "Danny Hakim", "title": "Journalist Chronicles The 'Power Struggle' Within The NRA", "question_index": 29, "text": "Right. And so meanwhile, he's representing the NRA against", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "725690611", "date": "2019-05-22", "guest": "Danny Hakim", "title": "Journalist Chronicles The 'Power Struggle' Within The NRA", "question_index": 30, "text": "the advertising company. So they're all - they all have these, like, strange, interconnecting conflicts of interest here. And I guess what seemed like what was going to be really good for them, to have these interconnecting ties - really, (unintelligible) - has coming up to kind of bite them in the behind.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "725690611", "date": "2019-05-22", "guest": "Danny Hakim", "title": "Journalist Chronicles The 'Power Struggle' Within The NRA", "question_index": 31, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Game Of Thrones\" situation."}
{"id": "725690611", "date": "2019-05-22", "guest": "Danny Hakim", "title": "Journalist Chronicles The 'Power Struggle' Within The NRA", "question_index": 32, "text": "So let's sum up here. I mean, the NRA is kind of involved in messes on - like, from every angle. So to sum up, we've got - there was the New York State Department of Financial Services investigation; the New York state attorney general investigation, which is ongoing; you had the fight between the president and the CEO of the NRA, a fight between the NRA and its own advertising firm, a fight between that advertising firm and the NRA's outside lawyer. Its tax-exempt status is at stake right now. That's - there's a lot going on that's really kind of not good for the NRA.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, it gets - yeah, I mean, it could work well, but - you know, but then if you start fighting with each other, then the problem is everybody knows everybody else's secrets. So it's - yeah, "}
{"id": "725690611", "date": "2019-05-22", "guest": "Danny Hakim", "title": "Journalist Chronicles The 'Power Struggle' Within The NRA", "question_index": 33, "text": "Why is the NRA's membership revenue declining?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. And there's another problem on top of that, which is Donald Trump. Now, you'd think there's probably been very few presidents that are stauncher supporters of the NRA than Donald Trump, "}
{"id": "725690611", "date": "2019-05-22", "guest": "Danny Hakim", "title": "Journalist Chronicles The 'Power Struggle' Within The NRA", "question_index": 34, "text": "What about the role of anti-gun violence groups who have become very active and have been very successful in fundraising? You say that some of them are - if you add them up, they're outspending the NRA. So what impact is that having on the NRA?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think for a lot of members, they feel less threatened now that Trump is in office. Part of the NRA's marketing savvy over the years has been to find an enemy and sort of use an enemy, like, whether "}
{"id": "725690611", "date": "2019-05-22", "guest": "Danny Hakim", "title": "Journalist Chronicles The 'Power Struggle' Within The NRA", "question_index": 35, "text": "Danny Hakim, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's just putting a new kind of pressure on the group that really hasn't existed to this extent before. And, you know, in the midterms, those groups outspent the NRA. And there's different way"}
{"id": "725690611", "date": "2019-05-22", "guest": "Danny Hakim", "title": "Journalist Chronicles The 'Power Struggle' Within The NRA", "question_index": 36, "text": "Danny Hakim as an investigative reporter for The New York Times. After we take a short break, jazz critic Kevin Whitehead will review the new Branford Marsalis album. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. Thank you for having me on."}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 0, "text": "Michael Pollan, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Why did you want to write a book about hallucinogenics?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, editor of the website TV Worth Watching, sitting in for Terry Gross. Psychedelic drugs are having a surprising renaissance, being used experimentally in therape"}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 1, "text": "I'll say", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It is something of a departure for me. I've been writing a lot about food and agriculture."}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 2, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It is something of a departure for me. I've been writing a lot about food and agriculture."}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 3, "text": "So looking at how psychedelics are being used in research today, let's start with depression. How are psychedelics being used to try to treat depression? And we should preface this by saying there's a lot of frustration now about antidepressants.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But, you know, it is a departure, but it's also all of a piece. I mean, my interest in food and agriculture really grew out of my interest in nature and how we engage with the natural world. And, yo"}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 4, "text": "Does the therapist talk with you during this experience?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, and that's part of the story. I didn't realize till I started working on this book how broken mental health care and treatment is in this country and that we really haven't had a big innovation "}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 5, "text": "Is one of the premises of this kind of treatment for depression that when you're depressed, you get caught up in these cycles of thought and these, like, tape loops of telling yourself negative things and seeing the world in negative ways and that through the use of a psychedelic, that you're going to almost be forced to perceive things differently, thus opening up the door into a new way of thinking?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. The therapist says very little. It's a very noninterventionist kind of thing because the theory is that you'll go where you need to go. You'll have the kind of trip you need. So for example, if "}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 6, "text": "So what is the state now of the psychological, therapeutic use of psychedelics?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly right. The drugs foster new perspectives on old problems. You know, one of the things our mind does is tell stories about ourselves. And if you're depressed, you're being told a story, perhaps"}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 7, "text": "You know, how far has it gotten?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So..."}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 8, "text": "How confident...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 9, "text": "...Are the researchers that they're actually using it...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 10, "text": "...Successfully in a way that other people could reproduce the same results?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's something here."}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 11, "text": "One of the things I find really interesting about that is that you could assume that you - if you had cancer and you were worried about your health, that if you took a psychedelic drug, that the negative things would come to the surface. And you would totally freak out and have a really bad trip. But apparently...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. There's a couple research groups around the country. The most prominent are at Johns Hopkins and NYU. Imperial College in London is doing really good work. And so is UCLA - a psychiatrist at UCL"}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 12, "text": "...That's not been happening. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's exactly what I thought."}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 13, "text": "That's pretty amazing", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, people have incredibly positive trips. They have scary episodes. I mean, make no mistake. You know, we have this idea of there's a bad trip, and there's a good trip. It's usually more complicated "}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 14, "text": ". So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, people have incredibly positive trips. They have scary episodes. I mean, make no mistake. You know, we have this idea of there's a bad trip, and there's a good trip. It's usually more complicated "}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 15, "text": "So we were talking about the use of psychedelics in treating depression and anxiety. There are also research projects now using psychedelics with people who have terminal cancer, and they're in - they're facing their death, and they're very anxious about it. So how are psychedelics being used in that setting?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview from last year with author Michael Pollan about his most recent book, which is now out in paperback. It's called \"How To Change Your Mind: What T"}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 16, "text": "What you described that this person experienced on the hallucinogenic sounds like a lot of near-death experiences that other people have described, where you see that death isn't going to be terrible, that there's some kind of peaceful beyond that you'll be going to. But you still have work to do in this world so that you come back from that near-death experience. And I'm not speaking to the validity of those experiences one way or another. I'm just kind of saying this is what I've read. This is what I've heard that some people have reported. And it's very similar to what you've just said.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So far, the most exciting trial, I think, has been giving it to people with life-changing diagnoses. They're not all terminal, but many of them are. And I spent a lot of time telling the story of a ma"}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 17, "text": "So is that how it's being used in addiction therapy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And we don't know what to do with that. There's no way to prove this, obviously. And it was a question that really troubled me as an old-fashioned, materialist, skeptical journalist. It's like, "}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 18, "text": "As part of the research for your book, \"How To Change Your Mind,\" about psychedelics, you wanted to try them yourself. You were slightly too young for the counterculture era, so you didn't take them in the '60s or '70s. And you wanted to experience them now. You tried to get into some of the studies that are being done. But they don't want, quote, \"healthy normals\" like you", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's interview from last year with Michael Pollan, whose most recent book is called \"How To Change Your Mind: What The "}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's interview from last year with Michael Pollan, whose most recent book is called \"How To Change Your Mind: What The "}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 20, "text": "So you had to go, you know, to the underground. And the first thing that you wanted to do was find a guide because, as they say, set and setting is very important. You have to have a guide and be in good hands and be in a setting where you're not going to freak out", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I flatter myself in thinking..."}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 21, "text": "you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I flatter myself in thinking..."}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 22, "text": "You only heard the bad stories. You didn't hear the good stories.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And you trust the person, yes. I mean, the trust is so important. So I was surprised to learn that there is a thriving underground of psychedelic guides in this country. I don't know how big it is. It"}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 23, "text": "That's very interesting. You call them medicines.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I only heard - that's true. It had to do with this moment in time that I came of age. I was hearing, you know, that it scrambled your chromosomes or it made you stare at the sun till you went blind - "}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 24, "text": "Well, let me stop you there because, I mean, it is true if you are - I think it's true that if you are prone to psychosis, that taking a hallucinogenic can put you over the edge. So, I mean, there are bad things to happen. And there is reason to use caution, and there is reason to take it seriously before you decide...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Experience. Well, you know, that's the term that people use underground. I think the word drug has so many - you know, so much moral coloration to it that they prefer the word medicine, and that's "}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 25, "text": "...To take a hallucinogenic - yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I want to emphasize that."}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 26, "text": "Tell us about the most meaningful psilocybin - was it psilocybin...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview with author Michael Pollan from last year about his most recent book, which is now out in paperback. It's called \"How To Change Your Mind: What T"}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 27, "text": "...That you took. Just tell us first what advice you got beforehand.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, psilocybin. Yeah."}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 28, "text": "Was it electronic music you were listening to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, I worked with a guide that I call Mary in the book, who was an incredibly empathetic, compassionate therapist. She was roughly my age. And she prepared me very carefully. I had to fill out"}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 29, "text": "So far, this is not sounding like a great trip.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's interesting. I thought it was electronic music. It turned out not to be, but it sounded like electronica. And it put me in this computer space. The other reason, though, I entered a compute"}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 30, "text": "How did it turn? Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's interesting. I thought it was electronic music. It turned out not to be, but it sounded like electronica. And it put me in this computer space. The other reason, though, I entered a compute"}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 31, "text": "I think...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I wasn't - it turned about now. After the booster shot, I found myself in this place where I could no longer control my perceptions at all. And I felt my sense of self scattered to the wind, alm"}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 32, "text": "That's one of the problems, though. I think when you've had an experience like that and try to explain it, it sounds a little loopy...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 33, "text": "...To anyone who hasn't experienced something similar.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 34, "text": "And that's, I think, part of the problem that people run into in trying to explain the transcendence of the experience that they had.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 35, "text": "(Laughing).", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, William James talked about this problem. He said the mystical experience is ineffable, yet we try very hard to eff it."}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 36, "text": "Well, you have described yourself as somebody who didn't think of yourself as having a mystical bent. What did you describe yourself as, a something materialist?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I did in this book. I mean, you know, the part of the book I most dreaded writing was the trips. How can you possibly describe these without sounding like an idiot or..."}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 37, "text": "Philosophical materialist, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Philosophical materialist. Yeah, I was..."}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 38, "text": "So how long as this lasted? I mean, you've had - you had this - these experiences - I don't know when your last trip was. But do you still feel transformed in some way by it? Or does that seem more like a memory of how something once was different but no longer is for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. This took me to a very uncomfortable place in some ways. And it challenged a lot of those beliefs. On the..."}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 39, "text": "You did?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, I mean, you do refer back to the memories. They're useful. They're kind of in your archive. They're very vivid. And you can refer back to certain images or experiences and use them that wa"}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 40, "text": "Oh, I'm sorry. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I did."}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 41, "text": "I had the same experience with my father - not with (laughing)...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, that was kind of the background to the whole book, I realized in retrospect. I was very interested in having a conversation about death that I couldn't really have with my father. He didn't "}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 42, "text": "I didn't turn to hallucinogenics as a result. But no, I felt with both of my parents that it was something they didn't really want to talk about.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 43, "text": "By better, you mean more meaningful?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And maybe that's generational. It's obviously not easy to talk about. But here, with these people who'd gone through this experience - and of course, these are people who sought this experience, so th"}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 44, "text": "So do you support, like, the legalization of psychedelics?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "More meaningful, yes, and more emotionally available, less defensive. And I think that's the big gift of these experiences when they go well, which is that, you know, the defenses that we have - and t"}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 45, "text": "So Michael Pollan, thank you for your book. Thank you for your history of the research into psychedelics and for your own", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, here's what I support. I support doing this research and seeing it through to the end and supporting it so that we can first confirm that these are as valuable a therapeutic tool as they appear "}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 46, "text": "experiments into psychedelics. It's all really fascinating. I wish we had time to talk more.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, here's what I support. I support doing this research and seeing it through to the end and supporting it so that we can first confirm that these are as valuable a therapeutic tool as they appear "}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 47, "text": "That's right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. We didn't get to talk about your experiences."}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 48, "text": "We did not bring me into this conversation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. We didn't get to talk about your experiences."}
{"id": "726085011", "date": "2019-05-24", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "'Reluctant Psychonaut' Michael Pollan Embraces 'New Science' Of Psychedelics", "question_index": 49, "text": "My thoughts exactly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As it should be. Thank you very much."}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 0, "text": "Elton John, welcome to FRESH AIR. What a great treat to have you on our show. Thank you so much for coming.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) The world had seven wonders once upon a time. It's sure enough the favored nations aided their decline. And all around me, I've seen times like it was back when. But like back then, I'd say "}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 1, "text": "This album has, I think, a kind of different sound to it. You know, your voice is deeper. There's a sense in the songs of looking back, of reflecting on the past, both the historical past and the personal past.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's great to be here. Thank you."}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 2, "text": "And I'm wondering if that mood and if that kind of lyrical cohesion was something that you and Bernie Taupin intended, or is it just the way it worked out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 3, "text": "You know, I know you don't write the lyrics. But we know part of the lyric in \"Home Again\" is we all dream of leaving, but wind up in the end spending all our time trying to get back home again. So I know Bernie Taupin wrote that, not you. But does that express at all a sentiment that you share?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- I couldn't believe it because he was absolutely right. I'd - the sound that made me famous, I had never made a record using that sound. And I think the fact that we went in with just three musicians"}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 4, "text": "T Bone Burnett, as you mentioned, heard you. When you first started performing in America, he heard you at the Troubadour. And those shows that you did there have become, you know, kind of famous in rock history. Tell us what you did there and tell us a little bit about who you were then.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course, because I'm a traveling gypsy. Every musician is a - you know, a wanderer. They spend their life traveling around. But it's not just about musicians or people in the armed forces who spend "}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 5, "text": "So the clothing that you described wearing at the Troubadour - that so surprised people because they were expecting something more Randy Newman-esque. Could you have done that in your hometown? Did you have to leave to be able to dress that way onstage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the \"Elton John\" album was a very orchestral album. The cover of the album was very dark - you know, very dark with a picture of myself on it. And I think most people in America that had heard t"}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 6, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was dressing that way in England anyway just for the stage purposes."}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 7, "text": "So if you're just joining us, my guest is Elton John. He has a new album called \"The Diving Board.\" And I want to play something else from the album. This is \"Oceans Away.\" It's a song about men who fought in World War II and survived. Do you want to say a few words about the song before we hear it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If you get - you know, everything I couldn't do when I was younger I did 10 times over. You know, Hollywood Bowl - which was the biggest show that I've done up to that point in my career - was very, v"}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 8, "text": "So this is Elton John from his new album, \"The Diving Board.\" This is \"Oceans Away.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I am - I get very moved when it's Armistice Day in England, which is November - or Veteran's Day in America - or anytime you see someone who's fought in a war marching to remember the ones that have f"}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 9, "text": "You mentioned your mother fought in World War II. What did she do?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview with Elton John recorded in 2013. The new biopic about him, \"Rocketman,\" opens Friday."}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 10, "text": "Was she a tough mother?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was a gunner. She was an ack ack girl, as they say. She was on the guns. And she was - she loved every single minute of it. I can tell you I think life was pretty amazing. I mean, it was it was fr"}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 11, "text": "When you say your mother was great about being gay, at what age was she great about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was disciplined, yeah - and quite rightly so. She was a good mother and very disciplined and worked very hard for me and, you know, encouraged me to be who I am not just personally but professiona"}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, I want to play another song from your album \"The Diving Board.\" And if you're just joining us, my guest is Elton John. And this is a song called \"Oscar Wilde Gets Out.\" And it's very relevant to what we're talking about 'cause it's about him getting out of prison after serving two years for a conviction of gross indecency because he was gay. And again, Bernie Taupin wrote the lyric, but what does this song mean to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I didn't really - now, I didn't sleep with anyone, Terry, till I were 23. So I really didn't know - in the '50s, you weren't taught about sex whatsoever. It was never talked about. People used t"}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 13, "text": "The opening piano line in this is very, I'd say, catchy. But it's a very sober line. Is that - did that come first for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", with the title. And, yeah, we we recorded and wrote this one first on the album because it's such a great and interesting story about someone who was betrayed by his lover and became infamous becaus"}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 14, "text": "OK. Great. So let's hear \"Oscar Wilde Gets Out.\" And this is from Elton John's new album \"The Diving Board.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. The intros - every song on the album has a piano intro. In fact, when you played \"Oceans Away,\" that's the first time I'd ever recorded in my whole life a piano and vocal just on its own. Which s"}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 15, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't want to be a classical musician. But I went to school Monday to Friday, and from the age of 11 to 15, I was - went to the Royal Academy on a Saturday morning in London on Marylebone Road. And"}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 16, "text": "We are recording this right before you perform at the Emmy Awards", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it has a whole new, different feeling now. You have to realize that Elvis Presley kind of only just happened there. So there was - it was a really, really very strict and severe place. But I w"}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it has a whole new, different feeling now. You have to realize that Elvis Presley kind of only just happened there. So there was - it was a really, really very strict and severe place. But I w"}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 18, "text": "And our listeners will be hearing this after you've performed at the Emmy Awards. And you're doing a tribute to Liberace because the movie about him, Behind The Candelabra, is nominated for, like, 15 Emmys, and who knows how many, if any, it will have won by the time this was broadcast. But anyways, you know, he was - you could say, oh, you'd look at Liberace, and of course, you'd think he was gay, but, you know, he wasn't publicly out, and I think it was an era when it was, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 19, "text": "...It was OK to be gay, as long as you didn't mention it", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 20, "text": ", as long as, like, they didn't have to hear it. Yeah?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, of course, he - Liberace came to England, and there was a columnist in the Daily Mirror who said he was gay, a guy called Cassandra - well, that was his pseudonym. And Liberace sued and won. And"}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 22, "text": "You know, I was reading a 1973 Rolling Stone interview with you in which you said that your act is going to become a little more Liberace-ized (ph). And I thought, wow, in 1973, you were thinking about making your act more Liberace-ish (ph).", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And you know, so my attempt to, you know, go one up on Liberace failed absolutely miserably. But he was so charming and so lovely and very, very funny and very, very intelligent. And he was a huge inf"}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 23, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was - all my stuff has been done with firmly tongue-in-cheek. You know, I wasn't a heartthrob - David Bowie or Mick Jagger or Rod Stewart in those days. You know, I was Elton at the piano. An"}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 24, "text": "But this is such an...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And being helped onstage by Mr. Universe, on his shoulders. So you know, anything like that, it was - you know, it was all down to me. It was my fault if anything - you know, if they didn't like what "}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 25, "text": "This is an interesting moment in your life because you have this new album, \"The Diving Board,\" that's very stripped down, you know. It's basically, you know, piano, bass, drums and then some extra instruments on some tracks. But at the same time, you're playing at Caesars in Vegas with your million-dollar piano show, and that sounds like quite an extravaganza. I mean, you're - literally, have a million-dollar piano, which I'm going to ask you to describe.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know, I had to take responsibility for it."}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 26, "text": "Oh, I love Blossom Dearie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It lights up. You can show films on it. You can show video. It was a suggestion from Yamaha, who made my piano, said, you know, we're coming up with an idea for you. And you know, the first show I did"}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 27, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I love Blossom Dearie, too. She was such a big influence on me..."}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 28, "text": "I never would have guessed that. I never, ever would have guessed that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Great, great pianist."}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 29, "text": "You've described yourself as being shy when you were growing up. And you're certainly not shy onstage, not in how you dress, not in how you perform - not in anything. So what's the connection between the extravagance onstage", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2013 interview with Elton John. His bio film \"Rocket Man\" opens in theaters this week."}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 30, "text": "and the extroversion onstage and the shyness that described you as a boy, before you became a performer?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2013 interview with Elton John. His bio film \"Rocket Man\" opens in theaters this week."}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 31, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, initially, I mean - I think performers are all show-offs, anyway, especially musicians. You have to - unless you show off, you're not going to get noticed. And you can stay there and just, you k"}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 32, "text": "You seem to be the kind of person who, when you do something, you go all the way. So, like, with clothing, it's going to be, you know, extravagant. You're not going to have like one pair of great glasses; you're going to have, like, probably hundreds. And you know, with drugs - you know, and with songs, like, you write so many songs, and you do so many performances. And with drugs, it was probably hard for you to just do it part-way (ph), and you went all the way with that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because they had to fit in with what I did. And I - you know, you take them around the world, you buy them Versace shirt and a Cartier watch, and then within six months, they hate your guts because th"}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 33, "text": "I don't even understand how you survive that, a burst appendix and you're still touring.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "of course, it was. I mean, I can't have one tie, I can't have one car - I can't have one of anything. I'm just an addict in everything. And you know, I had the appendicitis happen to me this year, whi"}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know how, either. But it's - I should actually be dead because if my body hadn't have been such a good - had protection, and it stopped me getting Peritonitis, I would have been on a flight, a"}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 35, "text": "Early in your career - this is the story the way I've read it - you know, that you auditioned for Liberty Records. They didn't like your singing well enough to sign you, but they thought, well, maybe you could write songs. And they gave you lyrics that were written by Bernie Taupin, which is how you got hooked up with him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm afraid that's part of my Achilles heel, is the way I think like that. I'm so kind of driven that you think stop it, you know. And so we - David and I sat down after the appendix thing had happened"}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 36, "text": "So would it have ever occurred to you to look for a lyricist to collaborate with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I was in a band. I didn't like playing in the band. I didn't like where we were musically. I was very shy. I was a little overweight. But I answered this advertisement. And I went to see the guy"}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 37, "text": "Well, Elton John, I'm so grateful you were on our show. Thank you so much for doing it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because I knew I couldn't write lyrics. And people say, well, you're very verbose. You're very articulate. How come you can't write your own lyrics? Well, that is a very great disservice to people who"}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 38, "text": "I really enjoyed it, too. And it occurs to me - should I have been calling you Sir Elton?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. I've really enjoyed it."}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 39, "text": "OK", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no. No one calls me Sir, thank you."}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 40, "text": ". I feel better already", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no. No one calls me Sir, thank you."}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 41, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no. No one calls me Sir, thank you."}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 42, "text": "OK", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, don't worry about that, for God's sake."}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 43, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, don't worry about that, for God's sake."}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 44, "text": "OK. Well, thank you so much, and be well.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I get called much worse things than that."}
{"id": "726098002", "date": "2019-05-27", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John: The 'Fresh Air' Interview", "question_index": 45, "text": "Will do.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you. And give my love to Philly, OK?"}
{"id": "727855256", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Maira Kalman", "title": "'Sara Berman's Closet' Traces 1 Woman's Life, From Shtetl To Greenwich Village", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. It's a long way from a shtetl in Eastern Europe to an apartment in Greenwich Village in miles and in the shape of daily life. That's the story told in the new book \"Sara Berman's Closet,\" a collaboration between children's book author and illustrator Maira Kalman and her son Alex Kalman, a designer and founder of the exhibition space called Mmuseumm. Sara was Maira's mother and Alex's grandmother. The book is also about how, after 38 years of marriage, Sara left her husband - they were living in Tel Aviv at the time - and also left behind all her possessions, with the exception of what she could fit in one suitcase. After starting her new life in Manhattan, she decided to wear only white. Her immaculate, ordered, all-white closet is not only referred to in the title of the new book; it was turned into a museum show. \"Sara Berman's Closet\" was on exhibit at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York and is now at the National Museum of American Jewish History in Philadelphia, along with an expanded version of the book with artwork, photos and objects from Sara's life. Maira Kalman, Alex Kalman, welcome to FRESH AIR. So Maira, the way you've written the book, it's almost like you're telling your mother's story, from going to a village in Belarus to Palestine to Manhattan, as if it was a fairy tale. You write children's books, but this one, I have to say - it reads kind of like a fairy tale. Was that intentional?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "727855256", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Maira Kalman", "title": "'Sara Berman's Closet' Traces 1 Woman's Life, From Shtetl To Greenwich Village", "question_index": 1, "text": "Did she ever explain to you why she started to wear only white? M.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The nature of the family and the stories that came from Belarus and the stories that came from Palestine always felt like a fairy tale. They were absurd, and they were strange. And they were terse and"}
{"id": "727855256", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Maira Kalman", "title": "'Sara Berman's Closet' Traces 1 Woman's Life, From Shtetl To Greenwich Village", "question_index": 2, "text": ". M.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, and that was the beautiful part of our life. Nobody explained anything to anybody."}
{"id": "727855256", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Maira Kalman", "title": "'Sara Berman's Closet' Traces 1 Woman's Life, From Shtetl To Greenwich Village", "question_index": 3, "text": "OK. So you have this, like, lovely spin on all of it - that it's like a fairy tale, and it's - everything is beautiful and ironed and starched. Even the socks and the underpants are ironed. And as an outsider, from afar, I could've put a really negative spin on all of this and said, oh, this is a sign of some kind of obsessive-compulsive disorder and a sign of a kind of narrowing of her world - that she narrowed her world to only white, that everything had to be so carefully controlled because she was afraid of chaos, as opposed to that she loved order and precision. Did you ever think of, like, the flip side, a possible dark side to the beauty that you found in her closet? M.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And we knew not to ask why, but not out of fear - just out of, it didn't matter. You know, we just all went along with things as they happened. And I guess that's part of the fairy tale aspect - that "}
{"id": "727855256", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Maira Kalman", "title": "'Sara Berman's Closet' Traces 1 Woman's Life, From Shtetl To Greenwich Village", "question_index": 4, "text": "And what made you think, after your mother died - and, Alex, after your grandmother died - that her closet should be preserved in some way as a work of art? A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Never. I mean, she had enough darkness in her marriage. It wasn't as if her life was this beautiful fairy tale. She really had a tremendous amount of sorrow and conflict. But when she started her own "}
{"id": "727855256", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Maira Kalman", "title": "'Sara Berman's Closet' Traces 1 Woman's Life, From Shtetl To Greenwich Village", "question_index": 5, "text": "So what were you going to use as the exhibition space? M.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I assigned my sister as the docent."}
{"id": "727855256", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Maira Kalman", "title": "'Sara Berman's Closet' Traces 1 Woman's Life, From Shtetl To Greenwich Village", "question_index": 6, "text": "I bet your sister just loved that idea", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So you'd come to..."}
{"id": "727855256", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Maira Kalman", "title": "'Sara Berman's Closet' Traces 1 Woman's Life, From Shtetl To Greenwich Village", "question_index": 7, "text": ". M.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So you'd come to..."}
{"id": "727855256", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Maira Kalman", "title": "'Sara Berman's Closet' Traces 1 Woman's Life, From Shtetl To Greenwich Village", "question_index": 8, "text": "So... M.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- yeah, she had some thoughts about that."}
{"id": "727855256", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Maira Kalman", "title": "'Sara Berman's Closet' Traces 1 Woman's Life, From Shtetl To Greenwich Village", "question_index": 9, "text": "So Alex, describe your Mmuseumm, which is pretty unique. A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it was plan B, which is keep everything, and wait and see what happens because one day, this will be. There was no question about it. We just didn't know how it would reveal itself until Alex's Mmu"}
{"id": "727855256", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Maira Kalman", "title": "'Sara Berman's Closet' Traces 1 Woman's Life, From Shtetl To Greenwich Village", "question_index": 10, "text": "So the book and the larger exhibition, which is now at the National Museum of American Jewish History in Philadelphia, also tells the story of Sara Berman's life. And I think you both went back to the village where she was born in Belarus, a village called Lenin. A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's a small alley called Cortlandt Alley just below Canal Street in Lower Manhattan, and it's a kind of a gritty, graffiti-covered alley. And in the alley, there are two small spaces, one a former"}
{"id": "727855256", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Maira Kalman", "title": "'Sara Berman's Closet' Traces 1 Woman's Life, From Shtetl To Greenwich Village", "question_index": 11, "text": "Oh, you weren't invited. Why not? M.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wasn't invited on that trip."}
{"id": "727855256", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Maira Kalman", "title": "'Sara Berman's Closet' Traces 1 Woman's Life, From Shtetl To Greenwich Village", "question_index": 12, "text": "So describe what you know about the village when your mother lived there 'cause I think her story is probably very similar to the stories of many Jewish people who grew up in that region and then fled the pogroms. M.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So there were some people we forgot about. It was more of a cousins - like, the elders - the elders of the family went."}
{"id": "727855256", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Maira Kalman", "title": "'Sara Berman's Closet' Traces 1 Woman's Life, From Shtetl To Greenwich Village", "question_index": 13, "text": "So you both write in the book, regarding the village - the shtetl - the men were fine, but the women were wondrous. They took care of everything and everyone, and that was a lot. What do you know about what women's lives were like in the shtetl where Sara grew up? M.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, one of the things that we talk about from the - at the museum - the National Museum of American Jewish History - is the swath of history that her life mirrors and - or parallels. And so the "}
{"id": "727855256", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Maira Kalman", "title": "'Sara Berman's Closet' Traces 1 Woman's Life, From Shtetl To Greenwich Village", "question_index": 14, "text": "We should take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guests are Maira and Alex Kalman. And they collaborated on the new book \"Sara Berman's Closet,\" which is also an exhibition that's now in Philadelphia at the National Museum of American Jewish history. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a life of endless, endless toil and - which was reproduced in Israel, so it wasn't hard for me to see that when I was a child and when we were in Israel over the years growing up - and Alex was"}
{"id": "727855256", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Maira Kalman", "title": "'Sara Berman's Closet' Traces 1 Woman's Life, From Shtetl To Greenwich Village", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guests are Maira Kalman and her son Alex Kalman. She's a children's book author and illustrator. He has his own design company and founded the Mmuseumm, which is spelled with an extra M on either side of the word. And it's dedicated to telling stories through objects, like objects confiscated at the southern border. They collaborated on the new book and on the museum exhibition \"Sara Berman's Closet.\" Sara was Maira's mother, Alex's grandmother. The exhibit is now in Philadelphia at the National Museum of American Jewish History. Do you think that the meaning of being Jewish changed in each home that your mother lived in - first in the shtetl in Belarus, then in Palestine, then in Manhattan? M.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a life of endless, endless toil and - which was reproduced in Israel, so it wasn't hard for me to see that when I was a child and when we were in Israel over the years growing up - and Alex was"}
{"id": "727855256", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Maira Kalman", "title": "'Sara Berman's Closet' Traces 1 Woman's Life, From Shtetl To Greenwich Village", "question_index": 16, "text": "Alex, when you were growing up, were you able to communicate with your grandmother? It sounds like she was not much of a talker and didn't reveal very much about her life. But I think, you know, for a lot of Jewish children who were growing up, their grandparents were either unable or unwilling to communicate what it was like and what they would often describe as the old country. So I'm wondering, like, how distant did the Belarus part of your grandmother's life seem to you? And how much of a grasp of it did you have? A.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I think that, you know, that mirrors a sense - you know, a development in a sense, like, yes, we're Jewish, of course. And we have a cultural affinity that we'll never be able to break no matter i"}
{"id": "727855256", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Maira Kalman", "title": "'Sara Berman's Closet' Traces 1 Woman's Life, From Shtetl To Greenwich Village", "question_index": 17, "text": "You write that her end had come in a whisper. She died - it sounds like she died in her sleep, visiting her sister in Israel. M.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I knew that there was a time and a space in her life that I didn't fully understand or didn't feel connected with. But we also - I don't think that that was a kind of a lack of communication. I think "}
{"id": "727855256", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Maira Kalman", "title": "'Sara Berman's Closet' Traces 1 Woman's Life, From Shtetl To Greenwich Village", "question_index": 18, "text": "How old was she? M.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We were all together in Tel Aviv for the High Holidays - all of us - Alex and Lulu, my sister Kika. And she - we spoke in the - we were all staying at a hotel, and we spoke in the morning and said, se"}
{"id": "727855256", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Maira Kalman", "title": "'Sara Berman's Closet' Traces 1 Woman's Life, From Shtetl To Greenwich Village", "question_index": 19, "text": "Do you take some comfort in knowing that she didn't go through a long period of suffering, as many people do now? M.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And the night before, she had been singing songs and toasting the family and sitting under the stars, being as happy as one could possibly be with her sister and the family around. And the photographs"}
{"id": "727855256", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Maira Kalman", "title": "'Sara Berman's Closet' Traces 1 Woman's Life, From Shtetl To Greenwich Village", "question_index": 20, "text": "Your late husband. Yeah. M.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it's - we call it the death of angels because you have - because you're spared all of that. And everybody - you know, people who hear that say, oh, that should be me; that should be my end. I "}
{"id": "727855256", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Maira Kalman", "title": "'Sara Berman's Closet' Traces 1 Woman's Life, From Shtetl To Greenwich Village", "question_index": 21, "text": "Maira, do you think a lot about how the women in the shtetl where your mother grew up - that they toiled, as you put it - that they silently toiled, like, all day and all night, preparing the food; doing the cleaning; doing, you know, the washing of the clothes; doing everything that pertained to sustenance and care of the house and the people in it? And you - and now, Alex, as well - have devoted your lives to making art. I mean, it's such - it's just such a difference. Like, the women in your mother's village could not have afforded", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, you know, whatever - there it is - whatever life gives you."}
{"id": "727855256", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Maira Kalman", "title": "'Sara Berman's Closet' Traces 1 Woman's Life, From Shtetl To Greenwich Village", "question_index": 22, "text": "to spend a lot of time making art. They had to just, like, take care of making sure there was food on the table and clothes to wear. M.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, you know, whatever - there it is - whatever life gives you."}
{"id": "727855256", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Maira Kalman", "title": "'Sara Berman's Closet' Traces 1 Woman's Life, From Shtetl To Greenwich Village", "question_index": 23, "text": "And the situation for you was that your husband died when he was 49, and you were on your own with two children to raise. And so it's really lucky that you had an identity and work to carry on with. M.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. There's an inevitability of what happened to us, but there was also a kind - well, I mean, there are many things that happened, but one of them is an allergy to patriarchy. And I have to"}
{"id": "727855256", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Maira Kalman", "title": "'Sara Berman's Closet' Traces 1 Woman's Life, From Shtetl To Greenwich Village", "question_index": 24, "text": "I want to thank you both so much for talking with us. M.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was extraordinary. I was - Tibor and I met when we were 19 in summer flunk-out school at NYU. And one of the things that we found very quickly was that we could collaborate, and we had a kind of co"}
{"id": "727855256", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Maira Kalman", "title": "'Sara Berman's Closet' Traces 1 Woman's Life, From Shtetl To Greenwich Village", "question_index": 25, "text": "Maira and Alex Kalman are the authors of the new illustrated book \"Sarah Berman's Closet.\" Their museum show of the same name is now at the National Museum of American Jewish History in Philadelphia. After a short break, we'll remember journalist Tony Horwitz, who died Monday at age 60. We'll listen back to our interview recorded after the publication of his book \"Confederates In The Attic: Dispatches From The Unfinished Civil War.\" And we'll hear Maureen Corrigan's review of his new book \"Spying On The South: An Odyssey Across The American Divide.\" I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "727874768", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Tony Horwitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Pulitzer Prize-Winning Writer Tony Horwitz", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist and bestselling author Tony Horwitz died Monday unexpectedly at the age of 60. He was in the middle of a book tour promoting his new book, \"Spying On The South.\" He's survived by his wife, the journalist Geraldine Brooks, and their two sons. Before becoming a full-time author, Tony Horwitz covered wars and conflicts in Northern Ireland, Bosnia and Iraq for The Wall Street Journal. He won a Pulitzer Prize in 1995 for his stories about working conditions in low-wage America. I interviewed Tony Horwitz in 1998 about his bestseller \"Confederates In The Attic: Dispatches From The Unfinished Civil War.\" At the time, he was covering the South for The Wall Street Journal. The book chronicled the obsession that thousands of Americans have with the Civil War, dressing up in Confederate or Union uniforms and reenacting famous Civil War battles. He spent time with reenactors and traveled around the country to examine the legacy of the Civil War. Here's an excerpt of our 1998 interview.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "727874768", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Tony Horwitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Pulitzer Prize-Winning Writer Tony Horwitz", "question_index": 1, "text": "Tony, give us an overview about the kind of reenactments that happen now in the South.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "727874768", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Tony Horwitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Pulitzer Prize-Winning Writer Tony Horwitz", "question_index": 2, "text": "We should say here that reenactment is a word that a lot of the people who participate in these restaged wars really hate. Why do they hate it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's not just in the South. They do reenactments everywhere now, even in California and even overseas and in Germany. I met a German reenactor who's started a unit over there. So this is reall"}
{"id": "727874768", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Tony Horwitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Pulitzer Prize-Winning Writer Tony Horwitz", "question_index": 3, "text": "Why relive that? Why - what are they getting out of reliving the boredom and the hardship?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". They'll be, you know, trying to reenact the war as it really happened - a lot of marching, a lot of sitting around. They'll only eat the foods that soldiers would have eaten. They'll only use the la"}
{"id": "727874768", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Tony Horwitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Pulitzer Prize-Winning Writer Tony Horwitz", "question_index": 4, "text": "Now, you did go to a huge reenactment of the Battle of the Wilderness...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. I think part of it is a kind of guilt, almost, about how easy life is in the late 20th century. You know, I guess the draft ended in about '72. For men like myself under the age of about 42 or "}
{"id": "727874768", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Tony Horwitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Pulitzer Prize-Winning Writer Tony Horwitz", "question_index": 5, "text": "...Which was fought in 1864. Tell us about the original battle, and then we'll find out more about the reenactment.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "727874768", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Tony Horwitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Pulitzer Prize-Winning Writer Tony Horwitz", "question_index": 6, "text": "And what's the reenactment like? How many people showed up when you were there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Well, the original battle was really one of the most horrible in the war. It was when Grant took over in the East. And his idea, really, was to just wear down the South and use the North's supe"}
{"id": "727874768", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Tony Horwitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Pulitzer Prize-Winning Writer Tony Horwitz", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thousands - it was quite a large reenactment. One of the interesting things to me is it's all sort of signposted. You drive, and it'll say Battle of the Wilderness this way..."}
{"id": "727874768", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Tony Horwitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Pulitzer Prize-Winning Writer Tony Horwitz", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And Confederate parking lot over here and..."}
{"id": "727874768", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Tony Horwitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Pulitzer Prize-Winning Writer Tony Horwitz", "question_index": 9, "text": "Who decides who's dead?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Which, of course, wasn't the case in the Wilderness. They wandered around lost in the woods for days. And then you get out there in your unit. I was a Confederate. And you march into battle. And in"}
{"id": "727874768", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Tony Horwitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Pulitzer Prize-Winning Writer Tony Horwitz", "question_index": 10, "text": "How long did it take for you to go down?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they have all kinds of ways of doing it. They recognize that they have this problem - that people don't want to die. So sometimes at the beginning of the reenactment, they'll say, everyone born "}
{"id": "727874768", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Tony Horwitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Pulitzer Prize-Winning Writer Tony Horwitz", "question_index": 11, "text": "How long did you have to play dead?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was pretty much like everyone else. I wanted to, you know, take part. So maybe after about 20 minutes, my whole unit went down."}
{"id": "727874768", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Tony Horwitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Pulitzer Prize-Winning Writer Tony Horwitz", "question_index": 12, "text": "Did you get a sense of what it might have felt like to be on the battlefield, as much as you could get a sense from a reenactment?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It was towards the end of the battle when we joined it. And what amused me was that they play \"Taps.\" And we get up, and - well, actually, the commander says resurrect. And we would all get up and g"}
{"id": "727874768", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Tony Horwitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Pulitzer Prize-Winning Writer Tony Horwitz", "question_index": 13, "text": "Did the whole reenactment seem particularly strange to you because you had covered real battles abroad?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, again, I think the smoke and noise - and again, the battles that I covered overseas - that's what strikes you - the incredible noise and the smoke and this confusion. And I certainly felt that. "}
{"id": "727874768", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Tony Horwitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Pulitzer Prize-Winning Writer Tony Horwitz", "question_index": 14, "text": "Why do more people want to be rebels? Is it because they're Southern, more Southerners participate?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, again, yes, because I think the kind of tragedy and brutality has been drained out of it, and it's really this sort of reenactment of really just the spectacle and the glamour of war almost, wit"}
{"id": "727874768", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Tony Horwitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Pulitzer Prize-Winning Writer Tony Horwitz", "question_index": 15, "text": "Did you bring up the slavery question with white people who were dressing as Confederates? I mean, how did they feel fighting for the side that supported the continuation of slavery?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, many of them are Northerners, and I think this is a complex and interesting question. You know, I think, one, there's this sort of instinctive allegiance that Americans have to the underdogs and, "}
{"id": "727874768", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Tony Horwitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Pulitzer Prize-Winning Writer Tony Horwitz", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, after one of the reenactments in which you were dressed as a Confederate soldier, you went to a 7-Eleven and ran into some African Americans who were shopping there. And how did it feel to be dressed, you know, as a rebel, as the side that was supporting slavery...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, again, there's this curious sort of suspension of belief that goes on with reenactments. What reenactors will say to you is that we're not here to debate the issues of the war; we're here to ree"}
{"id": "727874768", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Tony Horwitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Pulitzer Prize-Winning Writer Tony Horwitz", "question_index": 17, "text": "...You know, running into African Americans?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "727874768", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Tony Horwitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Pulitzer Prize-Winning Writer Tony Horwitz", "question_index": 18, "text": "You asked a very good and provocative question to a young African American preacher. You asked if there was any way for white Southerners to honor their forebears without insulting his. What was his response?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this was a sobering thing for me because somehow, in the course of the weekend, you really are just play acting. It's almost a carnival atmosphere, that you dress up, and you inhabit another rol"}
{"id": "727874768", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Tony Horwitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Pulitzer Prize-Winning Writer Tony Horwitz", "question_index": 19, "text": "If you're just joining us, we're listening back to my 1998 interview with Tony Horwitz, who died Monday at the age of 60. We'll hear more of the conversation after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "His response was, fine - remember the war, warts and all. I guess what offends him is this attempt to make heroes out of Southern generals and other figures. And his attitude was, if you're going to r"}
{"id": "727874768", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Tony Horwitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Pulitzer Prize-Winning Writer Tony Horwitz", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Journalist and author Tony Horwitz died Monday at age 60. We're listening back to my 1998 interview with him about his book \"Confederates In The Attic: Dispatches From The Unfinished Civil War.\" It's about how the war is, in some ways, still being fought, including in reenactments of famous battles. You know, I've never really quite understood the obsession that some people still have with the Civil War. But I always figured that must have something to do with the fact that my grandparents were immigrants from Eastern Europe. They didn't get here until after the Civil War. So the war has no direct ancestral connection for me. But on the other hand, your great grandfather, who was also an Eastern European immigrant, came to America, lived in the North and became very absorbed in Civil War history. What was the nature of his interest in the Civil War?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "His response was, fine - remember the war, warts and all. I guess what offends him is this attempt to make heroes out of Southern generals and other figures. And his attitude was, if you're going to r"}
{"id": "727874768", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Tony Horwitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Pulitzer Prize-Winning Writer Tony Horwitz", "question_index": 21, "text": "So what are your ideas about why your great grandfather was fascinated by the Civil War?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in a way, this is what got me started over 30 years ago. I was very fortunate in that my great grandfather lived to be over 100, so I knew him as a child. And one day he took out this quite fant"}
{"id": "727874768", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Tony Horwitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Pulitzer Prize-Winning Writer Tony Horwitz", "question_index": 22, "text": "You know, it's funny. I think one of the things that continues to separate the North and the South is the Civil War in the sense that I think many more Southerners are obsessed with the Civil War in a way that Northerners are not. Do you agree?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there's a very thoughtful essay that Robert Penn Warren wrote called \"The Legacy Of The Civil War\" that, to my mind, is still one of the best things written on the subject. And he talks about th"}
{"id": "727874768", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Tony Horwitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Pulitzer Prize-Winning Writer Tony Horwitz", "question_index": 23, "text": "Now I have to ask you a pop culture question.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, oh, absolutely. I mean, that's sort of the premise of my book - is that, you know, the war is still going on. Some Southerners - and I don't mean to suggest by any means most or - most Southerne"}
{"id": "727874768", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Tony Horwitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Pulitzer Prize-Winning Writer Tony Horwitz", "question_index": 24, "text": "What are some of your favorite movies or books about the Civil War?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "727874768", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Tony Horwitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Pulitzer Prize-Winning Writer Tony Horwitz", "question_index": 25, "text": "And what do you think of \"Gone With The Wind\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have to say I find most of the movies pretty dreadful. I think \"Glory\" comes the closest to conveying the experience of Civil War combat much more successfully, say, than \"Gettysburg\" does. In terms"}
{"id": "727874768", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Tony Horwitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Pulitzer Prize-Winning Writer Tony Horwitz", "question_index": 26, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have to say I find most of the movies pretty dreadful. I think \"Glory\" comes the closest to conveying the experience of Civil War combat much more successfully, say, than \"Gettysburg\" does. In terms"}
{"id": "727874768", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Tony Horwitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Pulitzer Prize-Winning Writer Tony Horwitz", "question_index": 27, "text": "Well, Tony Horwitz, I want to thank you a lot for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, \"Gone With The Wind,\" again, I think speaks to this issue of the South in some sense winning the history of the war. I think it's obvious that \"Gone With The Wind\" has done more than any of the "}
{"id": "727874768", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Tony Horwitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Pulitzer Prize-Winning Writer Tony Horwitz", "question_index": 28, "text": "My interview with Tony Horwitz was recorded in 1998 after the publication of his book \"Confederates In The Attic.\" He died Monday just a couple of weeks after the publication of his new book \"Spying On The South: An Odyssey Across The American Divide.\" We'll hear Maureen Corrigan's review of that book after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "727874768", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Tony Horwitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Pulitzer Prize-Winning Writer Tony Horwitz", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're remembering journalist Tony Horwitz, who died Monday at age 60. Throughout his career, Horwitz covered national news as well as wars and conflicts in the Middle East, Africa and Eastern Europe. For the last decade or so, Horwitz trained his expert eye on the conflicts ranging in this country. And this month, he published a new book called \"Spying On The South.\" Our book critic Maureen Corrigan reviewed that book on FRESH AIR last week. Here's that review.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "727874768", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Tony Horwitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Pulitzer Prize-Winning Writer Tony Horwitz", "question_index": 30, "text": "Maureen Corrigan teaches literature at Georgetown University. She reviewed \"Spying On The South\" by Tony Horwitz. He died Monday at age 60.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've been waiting for Tony Horwitz to write another big on-the-road book that criss-crosses the American cultural divide ever since his bestseller \"Confederates In The Attic\" came out in 1998. For tho"}
{"id": "727874768", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Tony Horwitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Pulitzer Prize-Winning Writer Tony Horwitz", "question_index": 31, "text": "Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, my guest will be New York Times Supreme Court correspondent Adam Liptak. We'll talk about the court's direction on abortion, the role the Court might play in Congressional committee subpoenas that President Trump is resisting and how the Court is changing with Trump's two appointees, Neil Gorsuch and Brett Kavanaugh. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've been waiting for Tony Horwitz to write another big on-the-road book that criss-crosses the American cultural divide ever since his bestseller \"Confederates In The Attic\" came out in 1998. For tho"}
{"id": "727874768", "date": "2019-05-29", "guest": "Tony Horwitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Pulitzer Prize-Winning Writer Tony Horwitz", "question_index": 32, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've been waiting for Tony Horwitz to write another big on-the-road book that criss-crosses the American cultural divide ever since his bestseller \"Confederates In The Attic\" came out in 1998. For tho"}
{"id": "728256390", "date": "2019-05-30", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Journalist Predicts SCOTUS, 'Under Strain,' Will Move Slowly On Abortion", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The Supreme Court will soon wrap up its first term with two sitting justices appointed by President Trump - Neil Gorsuch and Brett Kavanaugh. One of the big questions about this new court is, will it strike down Roe v. Wade or continue to allow states to chip away at women's access to abortion? My guest Adam Liptak is the Supreme Court correspondent for The New York Times. We're going to talk about the direction of the court on issues pertaining to abortion and the Trump administration, and we'll examine how Gorsuch and Kavanaugh are changing the court. Adam Liptak, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Let's talk about how the right to have an abortion is being challenged in the Supreme Court. And let's start with a case that was decided this week. Describe the law that had been struck down and was appealed to the Supreme Court.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "728256390", "date": "2019-05-30", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Journalist Predicts SCOTUS, 'Under Strain,' Will Move Slowly On Abortion", "question_index": 1, "text": "So how did the court decide?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The law had two pieces. One piece said you can't have an abortion if you're doing it for a bad reason. And among those reasons were that the fetus has a disability or you wanted to choose the sex of a"}
{"id": "728256390", "date": "2019-05-30", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Journalist Predicts SCOTUS, 'Under Strain,' Will Move Slowly On Abortion", "question_index": 2, "text": "One of the things that really confuses me about the law that was overturned, the law that said that a woman can't decide to have an abortion based on choosing what gender she wanted to have or deciding to have an abortion because the fetus was diagnosed as having Down syndrome or another, you know, serious illness or abnormality - if a woman says, I'm having an abortion just 'cause I want to, who's to say that she's having it because she's choosing the gender? Who's to say she's having it because the fetus was diagnosed with Down syndrome? I mean, how can you know what's in a woman's heart when she decides to have an abortion?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The court decided not to review the ruling on the forbidden grounds part of the law. It let stand a lower court ruling that struck down that law as contrary to Roe v. Wade, which, in essence, says the"}
{"id": "728256390", "date": "2019-05-30", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Journalist Predicts SCOTUS, 'Under Strain,' Will Move Slowly On Abortion", "question_index": 3, "text": "If the Supreme Court had heard the case, the part of the case pertaining to selectively having an abortion based on gender - the gender or the health of the fetus - would've given the court the first chance to consider the constitutionality of a state law restricting abortion since Kavanaugh replaced Kennedy last year. Do you think that the conservative members of the Supreme Court are just waiting for a better case to challenge Roe?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And that goes to a point about many of these laws. They're symbolic, in a way. They'd be very, very hard to police. What woman is going to announce that - in the face of such a law, that she's "}
{"id": "728256390", "date": "2019-05-30", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Journalist Predicts SCOTUS, 'Under Strain,' Will Move Slowly On Abortion", "question_index": 4, "text": "So voting it onto the docket is a really big issue right now. And you say it's really Kavanaugh who's going to be deciding that. What do we know about Kavanaugh's record on the right to abortion?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. My sense is that the court would rather move more cautiously and uphold more modest restrictions on abortion, rather than go headlong into the question of overruling Roe v. Wade. And there are a l"}
{"id": "728256390", "date": "2019-05-30", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Journalist Predicts SCOTUS, 'Under Strain,' Will Move Slowly On Abortion", "question_index": 5, "text": "So what are the cases most likely to come to the Supreme Court because they were designed to be test cases?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "On the appeals court, he participated in a decision in which it looked like he doesn't have a lot of use for Roe v. Wade. But he, too, at least in his early time on the court - and he's only been ther"}
{"id": "728256390", "date": "2019-05-30", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Journalist Predicts SCOTUS, 'Under Strain,' Will Move Slowly On Abortion", "question_index": 6, "text": "So if the Supreme Court is unlikely to overturn Roe v. Wade, it sounds like it might be more likely to overturn Casey, the 1992 decision? Do you want to explain that decision and where that figures in to where we're headed on abortion rights?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My sense is - so we're seeing these abortion laws all over the country. Seemingly every week, there's a new one. And they - and you know, Alabama says, you can't have an abortion at all, including if "}
{"id": "728256390", "date": "2019-05-30", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Journalist Predicts SCOTUS, 'Under Strain,' Will Move Slowly On Abortion", "question_index": 7, "text": "Clarence Thomas has said that the Constitution itself is silent on abortion. So what does an originalist, like Clarence Thomas, who's trying to take every word in the Constitution as literally as possible and figure out what the founders meant when they wrote each of those words, what does someone like him to do with an issue like abortion, which, as he said, the Constitution does not directly address?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In a sense, Roe and Casey do the same thing, but Casey introduces a new test on abortion laws, and it's a very squishy test. It says states can't pass laws prior to viability that impose an undue burd"}
{"id": "728256390", "date": "2019-05-30", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Journalist Predicts SCOTUS, 'Under Strain,' Will Move Slowly On Abortion", "question_index": 8, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Adam Liptak. He's the Supreme Court correspondent for The New York Times. We're going to take a short break, and then we'll be back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The originalist view - and, you know, it's got a power to it - is that those things that are not spelled out in the Constitution are committed to the political process. And that means people, through "}
{"id": "728256390", "date": "2019-05-30", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Journalist Predicts SCOTUS, 'Under Strain,' Will Move Slowly On Abortion", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Adam Liptak, the New York Times Supreme Court correspondent. I know you think the right to abortion is likely to be chipped away at incrementally, as opposed to Roe v. Wade being overturned, but where is Roe most vulnerable?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The originalist view - and, you know, it's got a power to it - is that those things that are not spelled out in the Constitution are committed to the political process. And that means people, through "}
{"id": "728256390", "date": "2019-05-30", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Journalist Predicts SCOTUS, 'Under Strain,' Will Move Slowly On Abortion", "question_index": 10, "text": "So Roe is grounded in the right to privacy, but the right to privacy isn't stated directly in the Constitution. It's just the penumbra of,", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Listen. It's not hard to write a decision striking down Roe, and we've already sketched out a little bit of how that would work. All you need to do is to say it's built on quicksand. There's nothing i"}
{"id": "728256390", "date": "2019-05-30", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Journalist Predicts SCOTUS, 'Under Strain,' Will Move Slowly On Abortion", "question_index": 11, "text": ", privacy that's in the Constitution. And then that's where Roe is vulnerable?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Listen. It's not hard to write a decision striking down Roe, and we've already sketched out a little bit of how that would work. All you need to do is to say it's built on quicksand. There's nothing i"}
{"id": "728256390", "date": "2019-05-30", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Journalist Predicts SCOTUS, 'Under Strain,' Will Move Slowly On Abortion", "question_index": 12, "text": "Since Roberts is considered the swing vote now, and he's more conservative on some issues such as the right to abortion and LGBTQ equality, tell us where you think Roberts stands on abortion.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Yes. Or the phrase of the Constitution that Justice Kennedy and other justices leaned on in Casey was the 14th Amendment's protection of liberty. But that phrase in the Constitution says that s"}
{"id": "728256390", "date": "2019-05-30", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Journalist Predicts SCOTUS, 'Under Strain,' Will Move Slowly On Abortion", "question_index": 13, "text": "Let's talk about President Trump and the Supreme Court. Let's start with this. You know, Merrick Garland, who was President Obama's pick to be the next Supreme Court justice when Obama was president - that nomination was totally blocked by Mitch McConnell. Now Merrick Garland's circuit will hear an appeal pertaining to President Trump. Garland is the chief judge on the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals. And they're going to hear the Trump administration's appeal of a decision saying that President Trump had to hand over his financial records to a congressional committee. So exactly what will Merrick Garland's role be on this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "John Roberts is not a fan of abortion. In a case a couple years ago out of Texas, he voted in dissent to sustain some tough restrictions on - in a Texas abortion law that could have driven the number "}
{"id": "728256390", "date": "2019-05-30", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Journalist Predicts SCOTUS, 'Under Strain,' Will Move Slowly On Abortion", "question_index": 14, "text": "Can you tell us about this case and what its importance is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In the short-term, nothing. He's not on the three-judge panel that will hear the case. Should the losing side of the three-judge panel seek to take the case to the full D.C. Circuit, I imagine Chief J"}
{"id": "728256390", "date": "2019-05-30", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Journalist Predicts SCOTUS, 'Under Strain,' Will Move Slowly On Abortion", "question_index": 15, "text": "If it does reach the Supreme Court - if one of these cases does reach the Supreme Court, what do you think the outcome would be?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We have a whole set of subpoenas from the Democratically controlled House of Representatives seeking to get information about President Trump, his official actions and his record as a businessman. The"}
{"id": "728256390", "date": "2019-05-30", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Journalist Predicts SCOTUS, 'Under Strain,' Will Move Slowly On Abortion", "question_index": 16, "text": "My guest is Adam Liptak, New York Times Supreme Court correspondent. After a break, we'll talk about whether we're in a constitutional crisis, how Robert Mueller's statement yesterday could affect the congressional investigations of the president and how Justices Gorsuch and Kavanaugh are changing the Supreme Court. Later, jazz critic Kevin Whitehead will review a new album by drummer and composer Jeff Williams. He's played with Stan Getz, Lee Konitz and Joe Lovano. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The cases are different, and they present different issues. But broadly speaking, the Supreme Court has enforced congressional subpoenas seeking information. And I would expect the administration to h"}
{"id": "728256390", "date": "2019-05-30", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Journalist Predicts SCOTUS, 'Under Strain,' Will Move Slowly On Abortion", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Adam Liptak, the Supreme Court correspondent for the New York Times. When we left off, we were talking about the role the Supreme Court might end up playing in the standoff between House congressional committees, which have demanded documents and testimony from the Trump administration, and the president, who has refused to comply. Well, you wrote the framers didn't anticipate every problem, including Congress's power to investigate the executive branch or the president's right to keep secrets from Congress. So where does that leave the Supreme Court if there's no constitutional guidance?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The cases are different, and they present different issues. But broadly speaking, the Supreme Court has enforced congressional subpoenas seeking information. And I would expect the administration to h"}
{"id": "728256390", "date": "2019-05-30", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Journalist Predicts SCOTUS, 'Under Strain,' Will Move Slowly On Abortion", "question_index": 18, "text": "So a case dating back to 1927 is being seen as a precedent for whether the president has to hand over what congressional committees are demanding of him. And so that's a precedent from the Teapot Dome corruption scandal. What was that precedent, and how might it be used in terms of Trump versus congressional investigations?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The court has inferred from the structure of the Constitution both of these things - that you can't legislate without knowing facts; therefore, you have to have the ability to gather facts, including "}
{"id": "728256390", "date": "2019-05-30", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Journalist Predicts SCOTUS, 'Under Strain,' Will Move Slowly On Abortion", "question_index": 19, "text": "Do you think we're in a constitutional crisis? And I think my larger question is, exactly what is a constitutional crisis? It's an expression I hear all the time. And I've heard at least three or four different definitions about what it is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So in that 1927 decision, which involved an investigation of government corruption, the Supreme Court said that congressional inquiries were, quote, \"an essential and appropriate auxiliary to the legi"}
{"id": "728256390", "date": "2019-05-30", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Journalist Predicts SCOTUS, 'Under Strain,' Will Move Slowly On Abortion", "question_index": 20, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's no fixed definition. My editors ask me about once a week, are we in a constitutional crisis?"}
{"id": "728256390", "date": "2019-05-30", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Journalist Predicts SCOTUS, 'Under Strain,' Will Move Slowly On Abortion", "question_index": 21, "text": "Because you have two branches of government - Congress versus the executive branch - at odds with each other and no one to decide who wins.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, one constitutional crisis I can think of is, the Supreme Court says to President Trump - as it said to President Nixon - you must comply with a subpoena. And were President Trump not to comply"}
{"id": "728256390", "date": "2019-05-30", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Journalist Predicts SCOTUS, 'Under Strain,' Will Move Slowly On Abortion", "question_index": 22, "text": "So if - somebody would have to bring a case saying that President Trump has to comply with subpoenas or turn over his tax records, and that case would have to make its way to the Supreme Court.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. If you have a complete breakdown of the complicated, interlocking set of checks and balances that has actually served us very well for more than 200 years - if you just have complete lack of co"}
{"id": "728256390", "date": "2019-05-30", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Journalist Predicts SCOTUS, 'Under Strain,' Will Move Slowly On Abortion", "question_index": 23, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Adam Liptak, Supreme Court correspondent for the New York Times. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's right. But that's underway. I mean, some of those cases are in court. Others will be in court soon enough. One of the cases is already before a federal appeals court, which I think - we'l"}
{"id": "728256390", "date": "2019-05-30", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Journalist Predicts SCOTUS, 'Under Strain,' Will Move Slowly On Abortion", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Adam Liptak, the Supreme Court correspondent for The New York Times. Well, Robert Mueller just broke his silence and made a public statement pertaining to the report and also pertaining to the fact that he's not going to make any more public statements. So what do you feel like you learned from what Mueller said?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's right. But that's underway. I mean, some of those cases are in court. Others will be in court soon enough. One of the cases is already before a federal appeals court, which I think - we'l"}
{"id": "728256390", "date": "2019-05-30", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Journalist Predicts SCOTUS, 'Under Strain,' Will Move Slowly On Abortion", "question_index": 25, "text": "Do you think what Mueller said has any implications for the House committees that are currently investigating the president?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think, to a large extent, he set the record straight about the second part of his report, the part involving questions of obstruction of justice by the president. He plainly said that they didn't cl"}
{"id": "728256390", "date": "2019-05-30", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Journalist Predicts SCOTUS, 'Under Strain,' Will Move Slowly On Abortion", "question_index": 26, "text": "Do you think Mueller's public comments add anything to the question of, should the president be investigated for obstructing justice, and is that impeachable?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm not sure it adds anything to a fair reading of the report itself, but some of the commentary around the report and some of the attorney general's summary of the report may have clouded people's un"}
{"id": "728256390", "date": "2019-05-30", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Journalist Predicts SCOTUS, 'Under Strain,' Will Move Slowly On Abortion", "question_index": 27, "text": "If the House decided to impeach President Trump, would that give the House more power to get access to witnesses who Trump has asked not to comply with subpoenas or to information like tax records that the president has decided not to hand over?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I think it leaves that conclusion to the House. And the House has complicated calculations to make, some of them legal, some of them political. They are up against the reality that whatever they d"}
{"id": "728256390", "date": "2019-05-30", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Journalist Predicts SCOTUS, 'Under Strain,' Will Move Slowly On Abortion", "question_index": 28, "text": "So do you think that Robert Mueller just gave the House more reason to - or more evidence for pursuing impeachment?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very good question, and the answer is an emphatic yes. So congressional subpoenas, when they're merely issued in aid of its legislative responsibilities, can sometimes be overcome. Sometimes courts wi"}
{"id": "728256390", "date": "2019-05-30", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Journalist Predicts SCOTUS, 'Under Strain,' Will Move Slowly On Abortion", "question_index": 29, "text": "So we have a new court with two Trump appointees - Neil Gorsuch and Brett Kavanaugh. You've written about the surprising number of things they have in common. Can you sketch out where their backgrounds intersect?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I guess I don't go that far. I don't think Mueller said very much beyond what's on the face of the report, although he said it much more crisply. You know, the report is 400 pages long. Almost nob"}
{"id": "728256390", "date": "2019-05-30", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Journalist Predicts SCOTUS, 'Under Strain,' Will Move Slowly On Abortion", "question_index": 30, "text": "What are some of their differences?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's sort of extraordinary. They - both of them went to the same Jesuit high school in the suburbs of Washington at the same time. They were two years apart. Kavanaugh was two years ahead of Gorsuch. "}
{"id": "728256390", "date": "2019-05-30", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Journalist Predicts SCOTUS, 'Under Strain,' Will Move Slowly On Abortion", "question_index": 31, "text": "Are you sensing a growing amount of tension between the justices? You used the word rancorous in", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What - some of it is stylistic. Neil Gorsuch is a big personality - folksy, a showy writer, a kind of - how to say this nicely - on the bench, he sometimes have - has a certain self-satisfied air. He "}
{"id": "728256390", "date": "2019-05-30", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Journalist Predicts SCOTUS, 'Under Strain,' Will Move Slowly On Abortion", "question_index": 32, "text": "a recent article.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What - some of it is stylistic. Neil Gorsuch is a big personality - folksy, a showy writer, a kind of - how to say this nicely - on the bench, he sometimes have - has a certain self-satisfied air. He "}
{"id": "728256390", "date": "2019-05-30", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Journalist Predicts SCOTUS, 'Under Strain,' Will Move Slowly On Abortion", "question_index": 33, "text": "How is that being expressed? In writing, or in discussions? What access do you have to that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very much so, and especially in the area of the death penalty. The liberal justices and the conservative justices are deeply divided on issues that arise in last-minute stays, requests, in death penal"}
{"id": "728256390", "date": "2019-05-30", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Journalist Predicts SCOTUS, 'Under Strain,' Will Move Slowly On Abortion", "question_index": 34, "text": "So Justice Kennedy had been considered the swing vote in the Supreme Court, and he's retired. So Justice Roberts, the chief justice, is now seen as the swing vote. How swingy has he been? Like, what can you learn from his recent decisions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's certainly been discussed in a whole series of opinions, including - and this is so weird - opinions issued weeks after the fact. They keep relitigating these issues. And in a different case"}
{"id": "728256390", "date": "2019-05-30", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Journalist Predicts SCOTUS, 'Under Strain,' Will Move Slowly On Abortion", "question_index": 35, "text": "Adam Liptak, thank you so much for coming back to FRESH AIR. It's always a pleasure to have you on our show. Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Justice Kennedy, although basically conservative, leaned left in important areas like abortion and affirmative action and, most importantly, gay rights. Those are not areas in which the chief justice "}
{"id": "728256390", "date": "2019-05-30", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "Journalist Predicts SCOTUS, 'Under Strain,' Will Move Slowly On Abortion", "question_index": 36, "text": "Adam Liptak is the Supreme Court correspondent for The New York Times. After we take a short break, jazz critic Kevin Whitehead will review a new album by drummer Jeff Williams, who's played with Stan Getz and Joe Lovano. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's always great to be here, Terry. Thank you."}
{"id": "728624943", "date": "2019-05-31", "guest": "Timothy Olyphant", "title": "Revisiting 'Deadwood,' With Star Timothy Olyphant And Creator David Milch", "question_index": 0, "text": "David Milch, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Why did you want to do a Western? I mean, let's face it. There aren't a lot of successful Westerns in the movies or on television anymore.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Marked you for an earner the minute you come in my sight, Jew bastard."}
{"id": "728624943", "date": "2019-05-31", "guest": "Timothy Olyphant", "title": "Revisiting 'Deadwood,' With Star Timothy Olyphant And Creator David Milch", "question_index": 1, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I didn't really have a particular interest in the genre. But I was interested in certain themes, which - originally, I had hoped to engage in a series about the city cops in Rome at the time"}
{"id": "728624943", "date": "2019-05-31", "guest": "Timothy Olyphant", "title": "Revisiting 'Deadwood,' With Star Timothy Olyphant And Creator David Milch", "question_index": 2, "text": "Well, Deadwood is a lawless spot. Would you describe why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Anyway, they were doing a show about Rome. And so Chris Albrecht and Carolyn Strauss suggested that I try and find another venue in which I could engage the same themes, and that's how I came to Deadw"}
{"id": "728624943", "date": "2019-05-31", "guest": "Timothy Olyphant", "title": "Revisiting 'Deadwood,' With Star Timothy Olyphant And Creator David Milch", "question_index": 3, "text": "And one of the main characters in \"Deadwood\" is a Montana marshal who quits his position as marshal and then travels to Deadwood in the hopes of starting a hardware business with his partner. So this is an interesting character to write about - someone who had been a law man and is now in this place that is totally lacking in law.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was no law in Deadwood because it was an illegal settlement. It was on land that had been stolen from the Indians, and there was a concern by the thieves - i.e. the white prospectors - that if t"}
{"id": "728624943", "date": "2019-05-31", "guest": "Timothy Olyphant", "title": "Revisiting 'Deadwood,' With Star Timothy Olyphant And Creator David Milch", "question_index": 4, "text": "One of the characters in \"Deadwood\" is Calamity Jane. And I think when we think of Calamity Jane, we think of Doris Day, who played her in the movies. We think of a character who's rambunctious. How would you describe your version of Calamity Jane, and what is it based on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", and he took his. And sure enough, within four months, he was a marshal again."}
{"id": "728624943", "date": "2019-05-31", "guest": "Timothy Olyphant", "title": "Revisiting 'Deadwood,' With Star Timothy Olyphant And Creator David Milch", "question_index": 5, "text": "So what was Wild Bill Hickok doing in Deadwood?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "with Calamity Jane henceforward."}
{"id": "728624943", "date": "2019-05-31", "guest": "Timothy Olyphant", "title": "Revisiting 'Deadwood,' With Star Timothy Olyphant And Creator David Milch", "question_index": 6, "text": "Now, everyone who's written about \"Deadwood\" has noted that the language, the dialogue is really filled with obscenities. Now, I remember in the old Westerns, instead of an expletive, you know, somebody might cry, tarnation or say, what....", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2004 interview with David Milch, creator of \"Deadwood,\" which has an HBO movie sequel premiering tonight. Before creating \"Deadwood\" the series, Milch work"}
{"id": "728624943", "date": "2019-05-31", "guest": "Timothy Olyphant", "title": "Revisiting 'Deadwood,' With Star Timothy Olyphant And Creator David Milch", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yeah, consarnit or why you. But, of course, they couldn't - you know, you couldn't get away with using real expletives in the movies or on television. Are you overdoing it with the expletives, or do you think people actually used them in such abundance in the Old West?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Yeah, consarnit."}
{"id": "728624943", "date": "2019-05-31", "guest": "Timothy Olyphant", "title": "Revisiting 'Deadwood,' With Star Timothy Olyphant And Creator David Milch", "question_index": 8, "text": "I want to get back to something we were talking about before, which is language. You know, there were restrictions on the language you could use on \"Hill Street\" and \"NYPD Blue.\" I'm sure you assumed that these characters would be using a lot more profanity and obscenity if they weren't restricted. So how do you get around that? What kind of language could you give them that implies that they'd be using saltier language if allowed, but this will take the place of it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have to tell you that in the course of a long time spent in research - more than a year, which was one of the blessings of working for HBO - that they gave me that kind of time. The one thing about "}
{"id": "728624943", "date": "2019-05-31", "guest": "Timothy Olyphant", "title": "Revisiting 'Deadwood,' With Star Timothy Olyphant And Creator David Milch", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I always found that stuff a little silly because I can make up words which are much more obscene because words derive their meaning from the context in which they're used. And so I remember the "}
{"id": "728624943", "date": "2019-05-31", "guest": "Timothy Olyphant", "title": "Revisiting 'Deadwood,' With Star Timothy Olyphant And Creator David Milch", "question_index": 10, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Now, there is no such word."}
{"id": "728624943", "date": "2019-05-31", "guest": "Timothy Olyphant", "title": "Revisiting 'Deadwood,' With Star Timothy Olyphant And Creator David Milch", "question_index": 11, "text": "Interesting. I got to know, how do you make up a word like goonya?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And yet, because of the context, it is a much more vivid image. And that's the point. The specific obscenities that are used in \"Deadwood\" - whether they scandalize or affront the sensibilities of the"}
{"id": "728624943", "date": "2019-05-31", "guest": "Timothy Olyphant", "title": "Revisiting 'Deadwood,' With Star Timothy Olyphant And Creator David Milch", "question_index": 12, "text": "I mean, what are some of the things you think about when you have to make up, like, a phony expletive or body part or, you know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. That's my racket."}
{"id": "728624943", "date": "2019-05-31", "guest": "Timothy Olyphant", "title": "Revisiting 'Deadwood,' With Star Timothy Olyphant And Creator David Milch", "question_index": 13, "text": "Right, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that - thinking is invariably the enemy of action. And I don't think - I mean, I don't outline my shows. I don't - I just sort of try and let it happen. And..."}
{"id": "728624943", "date": "2019-05-31", "guest": "Timothy Olyphant", "title": "Revisiting 'Deadwood,' With Star Timothy Olyphant And Creator David Milch", "question_index": 14, "text": "What were you up against in terms of using racial epithets?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's 2004 interview with David Milch, creator of the Western TV series \"Deadwood,\" which ran on HBO from 2004 to 2006. T"}
{"id": "728624943", "date": "2019-05-31", "guest": "Timothy Olyphant", "title": "Revisiting 'Deadwood,' With Star Timothy Olyphant And Creator David Milch", "question_index": 15, "text": "Does this include - I'll go with the N-word?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And as the ratings went up and the affiliates - you know, we get back to the old subject of commerce. One-third of the ABC affiliates refused to run the show. Well, after the show was on the air for"}
{"id": "728624943", "date": "2019-05-31", "guest": "Timothy Olyphant", "title": "Revisiting 'Deadwood,' With Star Timothy Olyphant And Creator David Milch", "question_index": 16, "text": "So where did the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yeah, specifically the N-word and specifically the fact that Sipowicz, as a racist, would use that word. And it was of the essence of that character's woundedness and the distortion of perspectiv"}
{"id": "728624943", "date": "2019-05-31", "guest": "Timothy Olyphant", "title": "Revisiting 'Deadwood,' With Star Timothy Olyphant And Creator David Milch", "question_index": 17, "text": "Where did the objections come from once you started using the word?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...If you're going to speak that way."}
{"id": "728624943", "date": "2019-05-31", "guest": "Timothy Olyphant", "title": "Revisiting 'Deadwood,' With Star Timothy Olyphant And Creator David Milch", "question_index": 18, "text": "What about from viewers? Did you get any objections from that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "From the bosses at the network."}
{"id": "728624943", "date": "2019-05-31", "guest": "Timothy Olyphant", "title": "Revisiting 'Deadwood,' With Star Timothy Olyphant And Creator David Milch", "question_index": 19, "text": "Right, 'cause you don't want to be affected by it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I don't read that stuff."}
{"id": "728624943", "date": "2019-05-31", "guest": "Timothy Olyphant", "title": "Revisiting 'Deadwood,' With Star Timothy Olyphant And Creator David Milch", "question_index": 20, "text": "Is - was that effective?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, the network will say, well, you can't put it on the air. But we finally found a way around that as time went on. We just didn't let them have the scripts until after the show was shot."}
{"id": "728624943", "date": "2019-05-31", "guest": "Timothy Olyphant", "title": "Revisiting 'Deadwood,' With Star Timothy Olyphant And Creator David Milch", "question_index": 21, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "it's effective if you're making them money. But by that time, they were sort of broken in. And it didn't hurt that those episodes won the Emmy. And so you get a certain amount of credibility and..."}
{"id": "728624943", "date": "2019-05-31", "guest": "Timothy Olyphant", "title": "Revisiting 'Deadwood,' With Star Timothy Olyphant And Creator David Milch", "question_index": 22, "text": "Since we've been talking a lot about language, I'm wondering if you've found a lot of interesting slang from the late 1800s in your research for \"Deadwood,\" slang that you're now using on the show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But also, you know, the thing about a network - the thing about any sort of guardian at the gate is they don't want to have to make a decision. If - I mean, they don't want to take the responsibility "}
{"id": "728624943", "date": "2019-05-31", "guest": "Timothy Olyphant", "title": "Revisiting 'Deadwood,' With Star Timothy Olyphant And Creator David Milch", "question_index": 23, "text": "Well, David Milch, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure. And you'll find that - for example, when - in the first episode that aired the other evening, there's a moment when they're describing a dilatant. One of the characters says, well, it won't "}
{"id": "728624943", "date": "2019-05-31", "guest": "Timothy Olyphant", "title": "Revisiting 'Deadwood,' With Star Timothy Olyphant And Creator David Milch", "question_index": 24, "text": "Let's hear a scene from \"Deadwood.\" And this is a scene with you and Ian McShane. He played Al Swearengen, who ran a saloon and brothel and was one of the meanest, most unethical men you'd ever want to meet. So in this scene, you're talking to Swearengen, and you're talking about a widow's claim to a gold mine. You, Sheriff Bullock, suspect that Swearengen is going to try to cheat her out of her claim. So you start the conversation.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Tonight, HBO presents \"Deadwood: The Movie,\" a long-delayed finale to the HBO TV series, which concluded abruptly after its third season in 2006. In the HBO TV series and in the new"}
{"id": "728624943", "date": "2019-05-31", "guest": "Timothy Olyphant", "title": "Revisiting 'Deadwood,' With Star Timothy Olyphant And Creator David Milch", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well, one of the many great scenes from \"Deadwood\" - Timothy Olyphant, my guest, along with Ian McShane. You played a sheriff in Montana who, like, hangs a man and then leaves town with his partner with the intention of starting a hardware store in this mining town, Deadwood, and ends up becoming the sheriff.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Seth Bullock) We understand each other."}
{"id": "728624943", "date": "2019-05-31", "guest": "Timothy Olyphant", "title": "Revisiting 'Deadwood,' With Star Timothy Olyphant And Creator David Milch", "question_index": 26, "text": "And I'm thinking, like, who would want to go to this town to start a new life? Of, like, all the places", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's fantastic."}
{"id": "728624943", "date": "2019-05-31", "guest": "Timothy Olyphant", "title": "Revisiting 'Deadwood,' With Star Timothy Olyphant And Creator David Milch", "question_index": 27, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's fantastic."}
{"id": "728624943", "date": "2019-05-31", "guest": "Timothy Olyphant", "title": "Revisiting 'Deadwood,' With Star Timothy Olyphant And Creator David Milch", "question_index": 28, "text": "...You'd want to go to, why would you go to this, like, horrible, dirty mining town with all these, like, crude, filthy, nasty, violent men there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "728624943", "date": "2019-05-31", "guest": "Timothy Olyphant", "title": "Revisiting 'Deadwood,' With Star Timothy Olyphant And Creator David Milch", "question_index": 29, "text": "No, no.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a good show."}
{"id": "728624943", "date": "2019-05-31", "guest": "Timothy Olyphant", "title": "Revisiting 'Deadwood,' With Star Timothy Olyphant And Creator David Milch", "question_index": 30, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's why. It's why we went there..."}
{"id": "728624943", "date": "2019-05-31", "guest": "Timothy Olyphant", "title": "Revisiting 'Deadwood,' With Star Timothy Olyphant And Creator David Milch", "question_index": 31, "text": "Get away from the violence", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Is we thought it would make good television. Yeah. You know, I don't know. I know that the - you know, one of the wonderful things about that whole show was those were real people that those charac"}
{"id": "728624943", "date": "2019-05-31", "guest": "Timothy Olyphant", "title": "Revisiting 'Deadwood,' With Star Timothy Olyphant And Creator David Milch", "question_index": 32, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Is we thought it would make good television. Yeah. You know, I don't know. I know that the - you know, one of the wonderful things about that whole show was those were real people that those charac"}
{"id": "728624943", "date": "2019-05-31", "guest": "Timothy Olyphant", "title": "Revisiting 'Deadwood,' With Star Timothy Olyphant And Creator David Milch", "question_index": 33, "text": "So how did you get the part on \"Deadwood?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. Exactly."}
{"id": "728624943", "date": "2019-05-31", "guest": "Timothy Olyphant", "title": "Revisiting 'Deadwood,' With Star Timothy Olyphant And Creator David Milch", "question_index": 34, "text": "David Milch was the creator of the series. And Walter Hill is a film director who directed the first episode of \"Deadwood.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sometimes, people aren't as consciously aware of their decisions as they should be. That I auditioned for. I met with - it started with a meeting with David Milch. And Walter Hill was in the room as w"}
{"id": "728624943", "date": "2019-05-31", "guest": "Timothy Olyphant", "title": "Revisiting 'Deadwood,' With Star Timothy Olyphant And Creator David Milch", "question_index": 35, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly, yeah. So I went and met with David and sat down with David and Walter. I really didn't say much. I kind of went in there with the plan of - I'd just listen and see if I could just fool these "}
{"id": "728624943", "date": "2019-05-31", "guest": "Timothy Olyphant", "title": "Revisiting 'Deadwood,' With Star Timothy Olyphant And Creator David Milch", "question_index": 36, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I tell you, it completely worked. You know, I was told afterwards he was a bit nervous about the whole meeting and a bit intimidated by it, and he wanted to know if I'd be interested in doing the "}
{"id": "728624943", "date": "2019-05-31", "guest": "Timothy Olyphant", "title": "Revisiting 'Deadwood,' With Star Timothy Olyphant And Creator David Milch", "question_index": 37, "text": "I love what you said about the audition because your character in \"Deadwood\" and your character in \"Justified\" are both so good at that unblinking stare, that un-backing-down stare. And you did that in the audition. That's great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My wife and I got a good laugh out of the whole thing. And - but I did go in and read for the executives at HBO. I went in and read what, I think, was the opening scene of the first episode."}
{"id": "728624943", "date": "2019-05-31", "guest": "Timothy Olyphant", "title": "Revisiting 'Deadwood,' With Star Timothy Olyphant And Creator David Milch", "question_index": 38, "text": "So what did you have to learn for the role? Like riding a horse - did you know how to do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's - yeah. And to be quite honest with you, it's not something I think I've - maybe I'm better at it at this point in my life than I was. But I've always sort of admired and respected one's abili"}
{"id": "728624943", "date": "2019-05-31", "guest": "Timothy Olyphant", "title": "Revisiting 'Deadwood,' With Star Timothy Olyphant And Creator David Milch", "question_index": 39, "text": "What was the set for \"Deadwood\" like? 'Cause the town that \"Deadwood\" is set in is just so grimy, like, ugly, mean.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For \"Deadwood,\" yeah, I did have to learn to ride. Milch had all these rodeo guys, I think, on his personal payroll. They were around. Some of them became characters on the show - guys who ran - who w"}
{"id": "728624943", "date": "2019-05-31", "guest": "Timothy Olyphant", "title": "Revisiting 'Deadwood,' With Star Timothy Olyphant And Creator David Milch", "question_index": 40, "text": "One of the things that became famous about \"Deadwood\" was the number of obscenities and the amount of blasphemous language that was used incessantly", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Chinese arrive. And, you know, it felt like a perfect storm of - the set allowed him to kind of work that way without the challenges of being - you know, we don't have this on \"Justified.\" On \"Justifi"}
{"id": "728624943", "date": "2019-05-31", "guest": "Timothy Olyphant", "title": "Revisiting 'Deadwood,' With Star Timothy Olyphant And Creator David Milch", "question_index": 41, "text": "in the show. Did you and, say, Ian McShane in scenes opposite each other ever start laughing because the language was just so overloaded?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Chinese arrive. And, you know, it felt like a perfect storm of - the set allowed him to kind of work that way without the challenges of being - you know, we don't have this on \"Justified.\" On \"Justifi"}
{"id": "729261391", "date": "2019-06-03", "guest": "Amanda Little", "title": "'Fate Of Food' Asks: What's For Dinner In A Hotter, Drier, More Crowded World?", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Climate change is affecting the weather. And droughts, floods, storms and unseasonal temperatures are affecting the global food supply. Tech startups, as well as mega companies, are developing new, high-tech ways of growing vegetables and fruits, farming fish and growing meat without harming animals. 3D food printers, laboratories where meat is grown from cultured animal cells, robots that can weed crops without using chemicals and indoor farms where vegetables are grown without soil or sun are some of the new approaches investigated by Amanda Little in her new book \"The Fate Of Food: What We'll Eat In A Bigger, Hotter, Smarter World.\" She's traveled to 13 states and 11 countries researching changes in our food system. Her reporting on energy, technology and the environment has been published in The New York Times, The Washington Post, Rolling Stone and other publications. She's a professor of journalism and science writing at Vanderbilt University. Amanda Little, welcome to FRESH AIR. Tell us some of the ways in which climate change is affecting the global food supply.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "729261391", "date": "2019-06-03", "guest": "Amanda Little", "title": "'Fate Of Food' Asks: What's For Dinner In A Hotter, Drier, More Crowded World?", "question_index": 1, "text": "So this made me think. You're right that the greenhouse gases that now threaten the future of the world's farmers are also largely produced by the farms themselves, especially the big, mechanized ones. Would you explain that paradox?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, let's just start in my own region. I live in Nashville, Tenn., and we've heard recently that in the Midwest - in Indiana, Kansas, Missouri, Illinois, Iowa - there have been terrible storms and t"}
{"id": "729261391", "date": "2019-06-03", "guest": "Amanda Little", "title": "'Fate Of Food' Asks: What's For Dinner In A Hotter, Drier, More Crowded World?", "question_index": 2, "text": "So big agribusiness companies, some of them are starting to invest in this new technology. I guess there's a couple of reasons. One is that it might have big payoffs in the long run, but also they're worried about the problems of climate change. And some of this new technology can kind of circumvent some of those problems. But there's also people from the sustainable food movement who have kind of joined this, like, high-tech future. And some of the people who you write about who were in the sustainable food movement decided after a while that the movement couldn't provide enough food and couldn't provide it at affordable prices. So basically, they were growing food or raising livestock to feed a few very prosperous people. So the few people you write about decided that wasn't enough for them. They wanted to do something that contributed more to a larger group of people, and with affordable prices.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I mean, it's really coming to a head right now."}
{"id": "729261391", "date": "2019-06-03", "guest": "Amanda Little", "title": "'Fate Of Food' Asks: What's For Dinner In A Hotter, Drier, More Crowded World?", "question_index": 3, "text": "Well, let's talk about some of the new high-tech ways of farming. Let's start with vertical farming. This is a form of indoor farming. Give us the basic description of how it works.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", when I heard that this scrappy young startup that was here to disrupt the agrochemical industry was being purchased by John Deere. And I said, you know, aren't you concerned that the agribusiness fo"}
{"id": "729261391", "date": "2019-06-03", "guest": "Amanda Little", "title": "'Fate Of Food' Asks: What's For Dinner In A Hotter, Drier, More Crowded World?", "question_index": 4, "text": "So plants don't necessarily need soil to be fed nutrients. They can get the nutrients in other ways.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". They grow leafy greens for now, but eventually other kinds of high-nutrient foods, on trellis structures, or these stacks of trays that go up about 30, 35 feet high. Metal trays. And the plants are "}
{"id": "729261391", "date": "2019-06-03", "guest": "Amanda Little", "title": "'Fate Of Food' Asks: What's For Dinner In A Hotter, Drier, More Crowded World?", "question_index": 5, "text": "So why is it mostly leafy greens that are being grown in vertical farms right now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Precisely."}
{"id": "729261391", "date": "2019-06-03", "guest": "Amanda Little", "title": "'Fate Of Food' Asks: What's For Dinner In A Hotter, Drier, More Crowded World?", "question_index": 6, "text": "So I'm wondering if the leafy greens taste any different when they're grown indoors like that - if you tasted any of it. And are stores selling it yet? Can we actually find that? Or is this still very much in the experimental phase?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Great question. Well, I mean, the leafy greens, you know, the baby leafy greens that you buy in the supermarket - baby spinach and arugula and so on - sell for about, you know, $4 or so a box. And the"}
{"id": "729261391", "date": "2019-06-03", "guest": "Amanda Little", "title": "'Fate Of Food' Asks: What's For Dinner In A Hotter, Drier, More Crowded World?", "question_index": 7, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is journalist Amanda Little. She's the author of the new book \"The Fate Of Food: What We'll Eat In A Bigger, Hotter, Smarter World.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes, they're selling it everywhere. So I was expecting it to be pretty bland and sort of floppy as - for example, if you get the hydroponic lettuces that are in those sort of plastic shells that h"}
{"id": "729261391", "date": "2019-06-03", "guest": "Amanda Little", "title": "'Fate Of Food' Asks: What's For Dinner In A Hotter, Drier, More Crowded World?", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is journalist Amanda Little. Her new book is called \"The Fate Of Food: What We'll Eat In A Bigger, Hotter, Smarter World.\" So there's a lot of advantages to these vertical farms. It uses less water than conventional farms. No pesticides are needed. You don't have to worry about the weather. No soils needed. What are some of the downsides?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes, they're selling it everywhere. So I was expecting it to be pretty bland and sort of floppy as - for example, if you get the hydroponic lettuces that are in those sort of plastic shells that h"}
{"id": "729261391", "date": "2019-06-03", "guest": "Amanda Little", "title": "'Fate Of Food' Asks: What's For Dinner In A Hotter, Drier, More Crowded World?", "question_index": 9, "text": "So I'm just thinking, like, is beautiful farmland going to be paved over for vertical farming?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There are many. It's interesting - throughout the reporting of this book, I was always sort of coming to terms with this. You know, the risk or reward is often sort of neck and neck, you know? And so "}
{"id": "729261391", "date": "2019-06-03", "guest": "Amanda Little", "title": "'Fate Of Food' Asks: What's For Dinner In A Hotter, Drier, More Crowded World?", "question_index": 10, "text": "And you eliminate the trucking costs...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the - so they work, in particular, in, you know, dense urban areas right. So the idea would not be to put these facilities in, you know, in rural areas but instead very close to population cente"}
{"id": "729261391", "date": "2019-06-03", "guest": "Amanda Little", "title": "'Fate Of Food' Asks: What's For Dinner In A Hotter, Drier, More Crowded World?", "question_index": 11, "text": "...And the fuel that's going to go into the air.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. You..."}
{"id": "729261391", "date": "2019-06-03", "guest": "Amanda Little", "title": "'Fate Of Food' Asks: What's For Dinner In A Hotter, Drier, More Crowded World?", "question_index": 12, "text": "A lot of people have given up meat, and that's for several reasons, including they don't want to see cattle slaughtered, they don't want to see animals treated inhumanely in factory farms, they don't want the cholesterol of meat. So now there's, like, meat alternatives being grown - actually, forms of meat being grown in laboratories. And basically, it's from cloned cells, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. So you're right. You're cutting some fuel inputs. And then you're adding some others. And, you know, there are lots of different numbers on exactly the sort of, you know, cost-benefit analysi"}
{"id": "729261391", "date": "2019-06-03", "guest": "Amanda Little", "title": "'Fate Of Food' Asks: What's For Dinner In A Hotter, Drier, More Crowded World?", "question_index": 13, "text": "Got it. But does it have, like, the flavor of meat?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it's from biopsied cells that are removed from a living animal and then are cultured. So they are replicated in sort of what they call a bioreactor, which is basically a very sophisticated crockpot"}
{"id": "729261391", "date": "2019-06-03", "guest": "Amanda Little", "title": "'Fate Of Food' Asks: What's For Dinner In A Hotter, Drier, More Crowded World?", "question_index": 14, "text": "Yum.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It does have a lot of flavor because what we're eating, I mean, in the meat we consume is just that; it's muscle, connective tissue and fat. And the meat that I tried, which has a lot of different nam"}
{"id": "729261391", "date": "2019-06-03", "guest": "Amanda Little", "title": "'Fate Of Food' Asks: What's For Dinner In A Hotter, Drier, More Crowded World?", "question_index": 15, "text": "My guest is Amanda Little, author of the new book \"The Fate Of Food.\" After we take a short break, we'll talk about 3D food printers being developed by the military. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "they're not, you know, derived from plants; they're derived from the cells of animals."}
{"id": "729261391", "date": "2019-06-03", "guest": "Amanda Little", "title": "'Fate Of Food' Asks: What's For Dinner In A Hotter, Drier, More Crowded World?", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with journalist Amanda Little, author of the new book, \"The Fate Of Food: What We'll Eat In A Bigger, Hotter, Smarter World.\" It's about new high-tech ways of growing fruits and vegetables and farming fish in the era of climate change. When we left off, she was talking about a tech company that's growing meat in a lab with cultured animal cells. She tried some of the company's duck meat, freshly harvested from a bioreactor. Before you tasted some of this cultured duck, you had to sign a waiver, and the waiver acknowledged that culture meats are experimental and their properties are not completely known, and you had to agree that you accepted all risks of loss, damages, injury or death...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "they're not, you know, derived from plants; they're derived from the cells of animals."}
{"id": "729261391", "date": "2019-06-03", "guest": "Amanda Little", "title": "'Fate Of Food' Asks: What's For Dinner In A Hotter, Drier, More Crowded World?", "question_index": 17, "text": "...That may occur as a result of your participation in this tasting. I was thinking, thank God, I don't have to sign this before every meal. But did that give you pause? Because it's still so experimental they can't really say for sure, like, what the long-term effects of this are. I don't know how worried they are about problems that this meat might cause in the long-term future. But how did you feel about signing this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "they're not, you know, derived from plants; they're derived from the cells of animals."}
{"id": "729261391", "date": "2019-06-03", "guest": "Amanda Little", "title": "'Fate Of Food' Asks: What's For Dinner In A Hotter, Drier, More Crowded World?", "question_index": 18, "text": "So right now culture meat or laboratory meat is in its experimental stages, and it's very expensive right now, too. What do you think the odds are that it will be actually available and affordable anytime in the foreseeable future?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "and I should have no qualms about this. And of course, I knew that he and his team and many others at, for example, Tyson Foods and elsewhere had tasted this meat before investing in it. So I was pret"}
{"id": "729261391", "date": "2019-06-03", "guest": "Amanda Little", "title": "'Fate Of Food' Asks: What's For Dinner In A Hotter, Drier, More Crowded World?", "question_index": 19, "text": "Meanwhile, the Army is designing something that seems just impossible to me, which is, like, 3D food printers so that, you know, soldiers on the battlefield can have food that's lightweight and that can also be designed with the nutrients that they need. Give us a sense of what this is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the odds are very high. I think it's interesting and important to kind of note that the basic technology for growing muscle tissue has been around for a couple of decades, and this is not, you"}
{"id": "729261391", "date": "2019-06-03", "guest": "Amanda Little", "title": "'Fate Of Food' Asks: What's For Dinner In A Hotter, Drier, More Crowded World?", "question_index": 20, "text": "Oh, by drone or some other - so in what sense is it a 3D printer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "get it into the field by drone or some other means."}
{"id": "729261391", "date": "2019-06-03", "guest": "Amanda Little", "title": "'Fate Of Food' Asks: What's For Dinner In A Hotter, Drier, More Crowded World?", "question_index": 21, "text": "How are things getting communicated from the soldier, who has specific nutritional needs, to the place where the food is actually squirted onto the tray and done whatever with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it deposits little kind of dots or squirts of food onto a plate inside a chamber. The current 3D printer, the one that I observed in the laboratories, looked very much like a microwave - it was cal"}
{"id": "729261391", "date": "2019-06-03", "guest": "Amanda Little", "title": "'Fate Of Food' Asks: What's For Dinner In A Hotter, Drier, More Crowded World?", "question_index": 22, "text": "Did you taste any of this 3D-printer food?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. So it's sort of like a glorified Fitbit, you know, with some sensor that's testing the - now they already have sensors that test the sweat of the soldier, and they can get all kinds of b"}
{"id": "729261391", "date": "2019-06-03", "guest": "Amanda Little", "title": "'Fate Of Food' Asks: What's For Dinner In A Hotter, Drier, More Crowded World?", "question_index": 23, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is journalist Amanda Little. Her new book is called \"The Fate Of Food: What We'll Eat In A Bigger, Hotter, Smarter World.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. I tasted 3D-printed chocolate peanut butter cups, which were delicious. I tasted - we had a 3D-printed flatbread that we attempted to make that was a sort of chickpea sort of base and then with"}
{"id": "729261391", "date": "2019-06-03", "guest": "Amanda Little", "title": "'Fate Of Food' Asks: What's For Dinner In A Hotter, Drier, More Crowded World?", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is journalist Amanda Little. She's the author of the new book \"The Fate Of Food: What We'll Eat In A Bigger, Hotter, Smarter World.\" And the book examines high-tech solutions to growing more food cheaper and food that can survive in spite of all the challenges being posed by climate change. Now, you say that the most a real place that you visited on your tour of, like, new high-tech approaches to food was a place that makes a new high-tech form of freeze-dried food that is being stocked up on by many survivalists right now. So describe this factory. Should I call it a factory?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. I tasted 3D-printed chocolate peanut butter cups, which were delicious. I tasted - we had a 3D-printed flatbread that we attempted to make that was a sort of chickpea sort of base and then with"}
{"id": "729261391", "date": "2019-06-03", "guest": "Amanda Little", "title": "'Fate Of Food' Asks: What's For Dinner In A Hotter, Drier, More Crowded World?", "question_index": 25, "text": "So give us an introduction to how this food is made.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. It was the chicken pot pie room at Wise Food's facility in Salt Lake City, Utah. And they were producing little Mylar pouches of freeze-dried chicken pot pie that, you know, essentially can be sh"}
{"id": "729261391", "date": "2019-06-03", "guest": "Amanda Little", "title": "'Fate Of Food' Asks: What's For Dinner In A Hotter, Drier, More Crowded World?", "question_index": 26, "text": "So how worried should I be that your brother, who is a climate scientist, is starting to stockpile food because he's so concerned about the future of climate change?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. So the core technology is not actually new. The Wise company - and as do other, you know, survival food companies that do this freeze-dried food - they practice a sort of 21st century version of s"}
{"id": "729261391", "date": "2019-06-03", "guest": "Amanda Little", "title": "'Fate Of Food' Asks: What's For Dinner In A Hotter, Drier, More Crowded World?", "question_index": 27, "text": "So what kinds of foods is the survivalist company making into a freeze-dried food that can last for a long time and help you through a disaster, catastrophe, whatever?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was kind of surprised because it wasn't just my brother who's a climate scientist. It was also other people in my life - I was beginning to notice - doing this. My step brother, who's a business guy"}
{"id": "729261391", "date": "2019-06-03", "guest": "Amanda Little", "title": "'Fate Of Food' Asks: What's For Dinner In A Hotter, Drier, More Crowded World?", "question_index": 28, "text": "And I guess you probably have to add water, so having it be stew-like is probably sensible.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So they're comfort foods. There's, you know, beefy chili and turkey tetrazzini and the sort of stewy kind of - comfort foods that you, you know, might associate with your grandmother or - you know, it"}
{"id": "729261391", "date": "2019-06-03", "guest": "Amanda Little", "title": "'Fate Of Food' Asks: What's For Dinner In A Hotter, Drier, More Crowded World?", "question_index": 29, "text": "Have you changed or reconsidered any of your eating habits as a result of writing this book?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. I mean, when I tucked (ph) into my chicken pot pie, it didn't look anything like the Stouffer's version. It was sort of a tawny gruel, although it did taste very familiar to me. It taste"}
{"id": "729261391", "date": "2019-06-03", "guest": "Amanda Little", "title": "'Fate Of Food' Asks: What's For Dinner In A Hotter, Drier, More Crowded World?", "question_index": 30, "text": "Well, Amanda Little, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The single-biggest change for me has been the way I think about food waste. I, like many of us, get really excited when I go to the grocery store and like to buy a lot of leafy, fresh things, and I am"}
{"id": "729261391", "date": "2019-06-03", "guest": "Amanda Little", "title": "'Fate Of Food' Asks: What's For Dinner In A Hotter, Drier, More Crowded World?", "question_index": 31, "text": "Amanda Little is the author of the new book \"The Fate Of Food.\" After we take a short break, classical music critic Lloyd Schwartz will review the recording that's now his favorite recording of the year. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much, Terry."}
{"id": "730339596", "date": "2019-06-06", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "UAE's Prince Mohammed Bin Zayed's Growing Influence On The U.S.", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The story we're going to talk about today is one you probably haven't heard much about even though it involves secret meetings with Jared Kushner and with Donald Trump Jr., and brokering talks between the Trump administration and Russia, and America's increasingly aggressive rhetoric against Iran. One person involved in the story was just indicted for having child pornography. Another paid hush money to a former Playboy model he'd had an affair with in a deal arranged by Michael Cohen. At the center of the larger story is arguably the most powerful leader in the Gulf. It's not the crown prince of Saudi Arabia. It's his mentor, Mohammed bin Zayed, the crown prince of Abu Dhabi and the de facto ruler of the United Arab Emirates, a tiny confederation of seven states in the Gulf including Dubai and Abu Dhabi. How the Prince got to be one of the most influential foreign voices in Washington and got Donald Trump's ear is the subject of my guest, David Kirkpatrick's, latest article. Kirkpatrick is a New York Times international correspondent and former Cairo bureau chief. He covered the Arab Spring and wrote a book about it, called, \"Into The Hands Of The Soldiers.\" David Kirkpatrick, welcome back to FRESH AIR. So the United Arab Emirates, which is a federation of seven city states, it's really pretty small. The number of citizens of the UAE is smaller than the population of Rhode Island. So what gives the UAE so much sway in the region and in the U.S.?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "730339596", "date": "2019-06-06", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "UAE's Prince Mohammed Bin Zayed's Growing Influence On The U.S.", "question_index": 1, "text": "That sounds great. I mean, they have great, you know, they have a great military. They have great military capacity. They've worked side by side with the U.S. in some conflicts. But they are also taking sides that many Americans think are against America's best interests. For example, the UAE is very opposed to Qatar - maybe you can explain the reasons why - but we have a military base in Qatar. Qatar has in that sense been very helpful to the U.S. It's maybe not in our best interests to alienate Qatar to serve the interests of the UAE. Can you talk about that a little bit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the short answer is money. They have a lot of money. Abu Dhabi, the capital of the United Arab Emirates, has 6% of the known oil deposits of the world. And they have more money in their sovereig"}
{"id": "730339596", "date": "2019-06-06", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "UAE's Prince Mohammed Bin Zayed's Growing Influence On The U.S.", "question_index": 2, "text": "Right. So what was Trump's response to that conflict between the UAE and Qatar?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So I mean, there are three big examples of cases where the UAE has gone a different way from American foreign policy. One is the Arab Spring. The U.S. was ostensibly for it. The UAE acted as har"}
{"id": "730339596", "date": "2019-06-06", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "UAE's Prince Mohammed Bin Zayed's Growing Influence On The U.S.", "question_index": 3, "text": "So this is an example of Trump listening to the UAE and taking its lead over the lead of his own administration.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it starts as a surprise. Somebody hacks into the website of the Qatari news organization. That turns out to have been done by the UAE, according to American investigators. As soon as this cutoff of"}
{"id": "730339596", "date": "2019-06-06", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "UAE's Prince Mohammed Bin Zayed's Growing Influence On The U.S.", "question_index": 4, "text": "So when President Trump supported the UAE over Qatar, how did that change the relationship between Qatar and the U.S. and between Qatar and the American military?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That's how it seems. I mean, when he spoke that day, he even referred to meetings and conversations he had had in Riyadh at an Arab summit, which can only have been conversations with the Emirat"}
{"id": "730339596", "date": "2019-06-06", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "UAE's Prince Mohammed Bin Zayed's Growing Influence On The U.S.", "question_index": 5, "text": "So I've gotten the impression from your articles that there have been times when President Trump has followed the advice of the Saudi and the Emirati crown princes more carefully than he's followed the advice of his own advisers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the military relationship is still strong. You know, one of things that keeps it strong is that the government of Qatar actually substantially subsidizes the cost of the American airbase there. "}
{"id": "730339596", "date": "2019-06-06", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "UAE's Prince Mohammed Bin Zayed's Growing Influence On The U.S.", "question_index": 6, "text": "And what is the UAE's agenda with Iran? Why are they in conflict?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That appears to be the case. The specifics get numerous and a little bit complicated. But to list them quickly, if you look at Trump's moves to try to designate the Muslim Brotherhood as a terro"}
{"id": "730339596", "date": "2019-06-06", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "UAE's Prince Mohammed Bin Zayed's Growing Influence On The U.S.", "question_index": 7, "text": "And they were probably very pleased when Trump pulled out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the truth is that the UAE's conflict with Iran goes way back to before the Iranian revolution. Iran is right across the Persian Gulf from the UAE. The UAE is a tiny country with an enormous amou"}
{"id": "730339596", "date": "2019-06-06", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "UAE's Prince Mohammed Bin Zayed's Growing Influence On The U.S.", "question_index": 8, "text": "So what's the UAE's agenda for the Middle East, for Israel and the Palestinians?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Delighted."}
{"id": "730339596", "date": "2019-06-06", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "UAE's Prince Mohammed Bin Zayed's Growing Influence On The U.S.", "question_index": 9, "text": "So my impression is, and correct me if I'm wrong here, that Jared Kushner in his pursuit of peace in the Middle East has spent more time talking to Gulf leaders than he has to Palestinian leaders.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The UAE's vision is very much that the UAE and other like-minded Arab states can be partners with Israel against their common foes, which include Iran and political Islam. And now this is something th"}
{"id": "730339596", "date": "2019-06-06", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "UAE's Prince Mohammed Bin Zayed's Growing Influence On The U.S.", "question_index": 10, "text": "So I know Jared Kushner has a close working relationship with the crown prince of Saudi Arabia. What about with the prince of the UAE?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That certainly seems to be the case. When you talk to folks who worked in those diplomatic relations under the Obama administration, Prince Mohammed of the UAE was already saying - he was arguing in t"}
{"id": "730339596", "date": "2019-06-06", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "UAE's Prince Mohammed Bin Zayed's Growing Influence On The U.S.", "question_index": 11, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is David Kirkpatrick. He's an international correspondent based in London for The New York Times, former Cairo bureau chief for the Times and author of a book about the Arab Spring called \"Into The Hands Of The Soldiers.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He appears to have a close relationship there as well. You know, if you follow his travel schedule, Jared Kushner stops in the UAE as well as Saudi Arabia when he's on his trips to the region. And Pri"}
{"id": "730339596", "date": "2019-06-06", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "UAE's Prince Mohammed Bin Zayed's Growing Influence On The U.S.", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is David Kirkpatrick. He's an international correspondent based in London for The New York Times, former Cairo bureau chief and author of a book about the Arab Spring called \"Into The Hands Of The Soldiers.\" And we're talking about how the Trump administration, specifically President Trump, has aligned himself with the crown princes of the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia. So something else that seems to be consonant with the UAE playbook is that President Trump recently took steps to declare the Muslim Brotherhood a terrorist group. And the UAE and Prince Mohammed bin Zayed do not like the Muslim Brotherhood. So do you see a connection between the UAE and President Trump's attempts to declare the group a terrorist group?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He appears to have a close relationship there as well. You know, if you follow his travel schedule, Jared Kushner stops in the UAE as well as Saudi Arabia when he's on his trips to the region. And Pri"}
{"id": "730339596", "date": "2019-06-06", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "UAE's Prince Mohammed Bin Zayed's Growing Influence On The U.S.", "question_index": 13, "text": "Why is the prince from the UAE opposed, like, so opposed to the Muslim Brotherhood?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have to assume there is one. Throughout the world, there is no greater opponent of the Muslim Brotherhood than Crown Prince Mohammed bin Zayed of the UAE. And he's somebody who has the ear of the Am"}
{"id": "730339596", "date": "2019-06-06", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "UAE's Prince Mohammed Bin Zayed's Growing Influence On The U.S.", "question_index": 14, "text": "Right, because they don't have elections.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's a really good question. So what he would say is, we've embraced a kind of cosmopolitanism liberalism, if you will, in the UAE. And these Islamist groups, which are very traditional-minded"}
{"id": "730339596", "date": "2019-06-06", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "UAE's Prince Mohammed Bin Zayed's Growing Influence On The U.S.", "question_index": 15, "text": "So there's two crown princes you've been writing about. There's Mohammed bin Zayed, who is from the United Arab Emirates. And then there's Mohammed bin Salman, who's the crown prince of Saudi Arabia. I've heard a lot more about the crown prince of Saudi Arabia than the crown prince of the United Arab Emirates. But you write that the crown prince of Saudi Arabia is actually a protege of the crown prince from the UAE. So, like, tell us a little bit more about their relationship.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "730339596", "date": "2019-06-06", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "UAE's Prince Mohammed Bin Zayed's Growing Influence On The U.S.", "question_index": 16, "text": "My guest is David Kirkpatrick, international correspondent for The New York Times. After a break, we'll talk more about Crown Prince Mohammed bin Zayed's relationship with Donald Trump and how the crown prince comes up in the Mueller report. And John Powers will review the new season of HBO's \"Big Little Lies.\" I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, people in the region - their relationship is a real subject of fascination. So Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman of Saudi Arabia is a young man. A lot of Americans have surely heard a lot abo"}
{"id": "730339596", "date": "2019-06-06", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "UAE's Prince Mohammed Bin Zayed's Growing Influence On The U.S.", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with David Kirkpatrick about how a crown prince from the United Arab Emirates - Mohammed bin Zayed - became one of the most influential foreign voices in Washington and got Donald Trump's ear - and Jared Kushner's ear - and Don Jr.'s ear. Mohammed bin Zayed also figures into the Mueller report. The United Arab Emirates is aligned with Saudi Arabia. It's bought arms from Israel and considers Iran its archenemy. David Kirkpatrick is based in London. He's an international correspondent for The New York Times and was the paper's Cairo bureau chief during the Arab Spring. He wrote a book about the Arab Spring called \"Into The Hands Of The Soldiers.\" So President Trump has aligned himself with the United Arab Emirates and with Saudi Arabia. And how do we figure out whether that is really in America's best interests or not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, people in the region - their relationship is a real subject of fascination. So Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman of Saudi Arabia is a young man. A lot of Americans have surely heard a lot abo"}
{"id": "730339596", "date": "2019-06-06", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "UAE's Prince Mohammed Bin Zayed's Growing Influence On The U.S.", "question_index": 18, "text": "Yeah. There's a Trump International Golf Club in Dubai in the UAE. What other properties does he have there? I know he wanted to build a Trump hotel there. I think that didn't work out. But I don't know if they're still trying to pursue it as a future project.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, that is a great question. And there are certainly people in Washington who would say that it is absolutely America's best interest to ally with the UAE for its own reasons, right? And that a"}
{"id": "730339596", "date": "2019-06-06", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "UAE's Prince Mohammed Bin Zayed's Growing Influence On The U.S.", "question_index": 19, "text": "So there are two people who are especially involved in opening up the doors between the United Arab Emirates and the Trump campaign and Trump administration. On the Emirati side, you have George Nader, who is working with - he's a Lebanese American who is working with the Emiratis. On the American side, you have Elliott Broidy, who was like the head fundraiser with the Republican National Committee and was working with the Trump administration - the Trump campaign first. And both of them - Nader and Broidy - are now under scrutiny by prosecutors. Explain the reasons why.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As I understand it, he has two Trump-branded properties in Dubai, both with the same developer, kind of a high-profile figure over there who's sometimes referred to as the Donald of Dubai."}
{"id": "730339596", "date": "2019-06-06", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "UAE's Prince Mohammed Bin Zayed's Growing Influence On The U.S.", "question_index": 20, "text": "Can we just stop here and say that, on Monday of this week, George Nader was arrested on charges of child pornography. And he had videos of pornographic videos of young boys on his cellphone.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they're both a couple of interesting characters. So George Nader is a Lebanese American businessman but also a kind of diplomatic gadfly. He had attached himself as a close adviser to Prince Moh"}
{"id": "730339596", "date": "2019-06-06", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "UAE's Prince Mohammed Bin Zayed's Growing Influence On The U.S.", "question_index": 21, "text": "Can we mention - there's an abortion involved there, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. I've read the complaint. And the contents of his cellphone were truly revolting. Yeah. Oddly, both of these guys - George Nader and Elliott Broidy - have each, in their own way, been cau"}
{"id": "730339596", "date": "2019-06-06", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "UAE's Prince Mohammed Bin Zayed's Growing Influence On The U.S.", "question_index": 22, "text": "And the payoff money was handled through Michael Cohen.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm not as well versed in those aspects of the allegations, but there is said to have been an abortion involved as well."}
{"id": "730339596", "date": "2019-06-06", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "UAE's Prince Mohammed Bin Zayed's Growing Influence On The U.S.", "question_index": 23, "text": "So Cohen handled the hush money. And so Broidy, the hush money guy, his role in opening up the door between the UAE and Trump?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's all very tangled, isn't it? But yes, that's the case. The - President Trump's own lawyer, who handled similar payoffs for him, did the same thing for Elliott Broidy."}
{"id": "730339596", "date": "2019-06-06", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "UAE's Prince Mohammed Bin Zayed's Growing Influence On The U.S.", "question_index": 24, "text": "At least five people working for the crown prince of the United Arab Emirates have been caught up in criminal investigations growing out of the Mueller inquiry. Who are they? Does that include Nader, who you've been talking about - the child porn guy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Elliott Broidy, in addition to being a Republican fundraiser, he has a private security company. He has a security company that hires a lot of former American military officers and provides intelli"}
{"id": "730339596", "date": "2019-06-06", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "UAE's Prince Mohammed Bin Zayed's Growing Influence On The U.S.", "question_index": 25, "text": "We're going to take a short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is David Kirkpatrick. He's an international correspondent for The New York Times based in London, former Cairo bureau chief and author of a book about the Arab Spring called \"Into The Hands Of The Soldiers.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that includes Nader, who was stopped at the airport when he landed in the U.S. As I understand it, he was stopped because the prosecutors wanted a connection - they wanted to question him in con"}
{"id": "730339596", "date": "2019-06-06", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "UAE's Prince Mohammed Bin Zayed's Growing Influence On The U.S.", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is David Kirkpatrick. He's a New York Times international correspondent based in London and former Cairo bureau chief. And we've been talking about the Gulf region, specifically the crown princes of the United Arab Emirates and Saudi Arabia and their influence on the Trump administration and before that on the Trump campaign. So what was in it for the Emiratis to try to help the Russians help Trump win?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that includes Nader, who was stopped at the airport when he landed in the U.S. As I understand it, he was stopped because the prosecutors wanted a connection - they wanted to question him in con"}
{"id": "730339596", "date": "2019-06-06", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "UAE's Prince Mohammed Bin Zayed's Growing Influence On The U.S.", "question_index": 27, "text": "So what kind of help did George Nader say that the United Arab Emirates wanted to offer the Trump campaign?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we don't know that the Emiratis helped the Russians help Trump win. All we know is that George Nader offered Emirati help during the campaign. And once the campaign was over, once President Trum"}
{"id": "730339596", "date": "2019-06-06", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "UAE's Prince Mohammed Bin Zayed's Growing Influence On The U.S.", "question_index": 28, "text": "So when was that meeting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As far as we know, he wasn't specific. But when he showed up at Trump Tower in August of 2016, he brought with him an Israeli operative, Joel Zamel, who is another person connected to Crown Prince Moh"}
{"id": "730339596", "date": "2019-06-06", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "UAE's Prince Mohammed Bin Zayed's Growing Influence On The U.S.", "question_index": 29, "text": "During the campaign.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That meeting was in August of 2016."}
{"id": "730339596", "date": "2019-06-06", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "UAE's Prince Mohammed Bin Zayed's Growing Influence On The U.S.", "question_index": 30, "text": "So did you read the Mueller report? And if so, like what did you learn from it that relates to the issues you've been covering?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "During the campaign."}
{"id": "730339596", "date": "2019-06-06", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "UAE's Prince Mohammed Bin Zayed's Growing Influence On The U.S.", "question_index": 31, "text": "So I guess everything we've been talking about helps explain why Trump has been celebrated in the Emirates and in Saudi Arabia in spite of his Muslim ban, in spite of his anti-Muslim rhetoric. Do you feel like you understand why the crown princes from Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates are willing to be so solidly connected to President Trump when Trump has been so anti-Muslim in his rhetoric and policies?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I learned two things. I learned that there were some very suggestive blackouts indicating that some of these matters may still be under scrutiny. And I also learned more about the role the Emira"}
{"id": "730339596", "date": "2019-06-06", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "UAE's Prince Mohammed Bin Zayed's Growing Influence On The U.S.", "question_index": 32, "text": "David Kirkpatrick, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That is quite a paradox, isn't it? Because, you know, he's arguably been anti-Muslim in his rhetoric - certainly in his call for a Muslim ban. And yet these Muslim rulers really appreciate him and fee"}
{"id": "730339596", "date": "2019-06-06", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "UAE's Prince Mohammed Bin Zayed's Growing Influence On The U.S.", "question_index": 33, "text": "David Kirkpatrick is an international correspondent for The New York Times. After we take a short break, John Powers will review the new season of HBO's \"Big Little Lies.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "730655716", "date": "2019-06-07", "guest": "Mac Rebennack", "title": "Remembering Musician, Singer, Songwriter And Producer Dr. John", "question_index": 0, "text": "Were there are a lot of knife fights or gun fights at some of the rougher clubs that you played?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Most of the clubs were fronts for something else. It was like the - you know, there were the B drinkers and all, working prostitution out the backs of the clubs. There's - they all these motels connec"}
{"id": "730655716", "date": "2019-06-07", "guest": "Mac Rebennack", "title": "Remembering Musician, Singer, Songwriter And Producer Dr. John", "question_index": 1, "text": "If the guns or the knives were coming out, were you supposed to keep playing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Some of the giants were real, you know, typical bucket-of-blood giants. And there were - some of the places my family knew I was working, and some of them would have just pulled me out the w"}
{"id": "730655716", "date": "2019-06-07", "guest": "Mac Rebennack", "title": "Remembering Musician, Singer, Songwriter And Producer Dr. John", "question_index": 2, "text": "What was that supposed to accomplish?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. We always were instructed to play loud and fast when trouble happened. That was kind of the rule of thumb. When trouble start, you play loud and fast."}
{"id": "730655716", "date": "2019-06-07", "guest": "Mac Rebennack", "title": "Remembering Musician, Singer, Songwriter And Producer Dr. John", "question_index": 3, "text": "Oh", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Drown out the trouble."}
{"id": "730655716", "date": "2019-06-07", "guest": "Mac Rebennack", "title": "Remembering Musician, Singer, Songwriter And Producer Dr. John", "question_index": 4, "text": ". Did it work?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Drown out the trouble."}
{"id": "730655716", "date": "2019-06-07", "guest": "Mac Rebennack", "title": "Remembering Musician, Singer, Songwriter And Producer Dr. John", "question_index": 5, "text": "So people wouldn't notice that much what was happening.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "730655716", "date": "2019-06-07", "guest": "Mac Rebennack", "title": "Remembering Musician, Singer, Songwriter And Producer Dr. John", "question_index": 6, "text": "I had read somewhere that you were shot in the fingers, I think, when - during a club date. What happened? What's the story with that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, so the bouncer could clear the people out the place. And, usually, nobody was the wiser that somebody was murdered or whatever happened. It was usually not even noticed by the bulk of the paying"}
{"id": "730655716", "date": "2019-06-07", "guest": "Mac Rebennack", "title": "Remembering Musician, Singer, Songwriter And Producer Dr. John", "question_index": 7, "text": "Was there a separate black and white music scene when you were coming of age?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was playing a gig in Jacksonville, Fla. And Ronnie Barron, who was singing with our band at the time, he was, like, really underage. He was, like, a couple years younger than me. And his mothe"}
{"id": "730655716", "date": "2019-06-07", "guest": "Mac Rebennack", "title": "Remembering Musician, Singer, Songwriter And Producer Dr. John", "question_index": 8, "text": "How did you start doing studio work?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there was separate unions. There was segregated unions, which was a real problem for me because - especially as I was working in the recording scene, I had flack from the white union for hiring "}
{"id": "730655716", "date": "2019-06-07", "guest": "Mac Rebennack", "title": "Remembering Musician, Singer, Songwriter And Producer Dr. John", "question_index": 9, "text": "What are some of the sessions that you played on that became big hits nationwide?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I hung at the studio. Myself and James Booker and several other musicians, as kids, we just literally hung at the studio, hoping somebody would get sick or get hurt and that we'd get to sub for "}
{"id": "730655716", "date": "2019-06-07", "guest": "Mac Rebennack", "title": "Remembering Musician, Singer, Songwriter And Producer Dr. John", "question_index": 10, "text": "I want to play a recording from your \"Gumbo\" album. And it's \"Those Lonely Lonely Nights.\" Why did you choose to do this song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, early on, some of the Huey Smith and The Clowns things and Frankie Ford sessions and Jimmy Clanton sessions. Like, with Huey Smith, it's funny. I listen to some of the records that we had done. "}
{"id": "730655716", "date": "2019-06-07", "guest": "Mac Rebennack", "title": "Remembering Musician, Singer, Songwriter And Producer Dr. John", "question_index": 11, "text": "And why don't we hear it? You're featured on piano and vocals...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was looking for some Earl King songs. Earl was one of the - he and Huey Smith were two of the guys that encouraged me to keep on writing songs. And they were like the up-and-coming guys. Like,"}
{"id": "730655716", "date": "2019-06-07", "guest": "Mac Rebennack", "title": "Remembering Musician, Singer, Songwriter And Producer Dr. John", "question_index": 12, "text": "...On this recording of \"Those Lonely Lonely Nights\" from Dr. John - Mac Rebennack's album \"Gumbo.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "730655716", "date": "2019-06-07", "guest": "Mac Rebennack", "title": "Remembering Musician, Singer, Songwriter And Producer Dr. John", "question_index": 13, "text": "\"Those Lonely Lonely Nights\" with my guest Dr. John - Mac Rebennack - featured on piano and vocals. When you started producing records, did you have a sound in mind that you were always going for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) There's been some lonely, lonely nights, oh, baby, yes, since you been gone. Lay my head on my pillow. Oh, how I cried all night long. The thing you used to say to me - you said that we woul"}
{"id": "730655716", "date": "2019-06-07", "guest": "Mac Rebennack", "title": "Remembering Musician, Singer, Songwriter And Producer Dr. John", "question_index": 14, "text": "You went from this background of playing a music rooted in jazz and blues and early rock and roll. And then you became one of the leading figures in psychedelic music, and you created this persona for yourself - the Dr. John persona. How was that created? Was it your idea to do that?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. Today, we're remembering the great New Orleans pianist, singer and producer Mac Rebennack, also known as Dr. John, who died yesterday at the age"}
{"id": "730655716", "date": "2019-06-07", "guest": "Mac Rebennack", "title": "Remembering Musician, Singer, Songwriter And Producer Dr. John", "question_index": 15, "text": "I want to play something from one of your early Dr. John the Night Tripper records, and this is from the \"Gris-Gris\" album, and it's \"Gris-Gris Gumbo Ya Ya.\" Do you want to say anything about when you started doing this song and how you'd get into it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had always came up with album concepts. I would think of, like, well, this will be a project. And I would come up with, like, a lot of album projects so that if I had some work to do that we'd"}
{"id": "730655716", "date": "2019-06-07", "guest": "Mac Rebennack", "title": "Remembering Musician, Singer, Songwriter And Producer Dr. John", "question_index": 16, "text": "Now, I think you hadn't sung or at least recorded your singing before recording in the persona of Dr. John. Was it hard to find your own voice when you were doing Dr. John?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) They call me Dr. John, known as the Night Tripper. Got my sizzling gris-gris in my hand. Day tripping up, back down the bayou. I'm the last of the best. They call me the gris-gris man. Got m"}
{"id": "730655716", "date": "2019-06-07", "guest": "Mac Rebennack", "title": "Remembering Musician, Singer, Songwriter And Producer Dr. John", "question_index": 17, "text": "What was your reaction to the psychedelic music scene? You'd come from a very different background.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I literally had no voice. I had never really sang other than a few risque songs after hours at clubs. But I'd never - the only thing I knew about singing was I knew how to sell songs as a songwriter. "}
{"id": "730655716", "date": "2019-06-07", "guest": "Mac Rebennack", "title": "Remembering Musician, Singer, Songwriter And Producer Dr. John", "question_index": 18, "text": "You were born Roman Catholic. What got you so interested in voodoo?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was very turned off by the vibe of everybody being into the oneness of the planet and how that was great and the vibe. And then I was watching the aftereffects of this. I mean, I'd see these runaway"}
{"id": "730655716", "date": "2019-06-07", "guest": "Mac Rebennack", "title": "Remembering Musician, Singer, Songwriter And Producer Dr. John", "question_index": 19, "text": "You were studying to be a priest in the church of voodoo and witchcraft.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's a real heavy port in New Orleans' scene. When I was coming up, it was like everybody I know - it's like you automatically, whether it was my grandmother or my grandfather - everybody did ce"}
{"id": "730655716", "date": "2019-06-07", "guest": "Mac Rebennack", "title": "Remembering Musician, Singer, Songwriter And Producer Dr. John", "question_index": 20, "text": "So you created the church to help legitimize their activities.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what I actually did was legalize it. I chartered it so that the reverend mothers in New Orleans would not be busted for fortune telling, for doing spells and whatever they did prior to me having"}
{"id": "730655716", "date": "2019-06-07", "guest": "Mac Rebennack", "title": "Remembering Musician, Singer, Songwriter And Producer Dr. John", "question_index": 21, "text": "A couple of your latest albums really showcase your piano playing. Have you been seeing yourself as much of a pianist now, as a singer or guitarist or producer or any of the other things that you've done?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it worked real well. It's like - to this day, they still can use this charter."}
{"id": "730655716", "date": "2019-06-07", "guest": "Mac Rebennack", "title": "Remembering Musician, Singer, Songwriter And Producer Dr. John", "question_index": 22, "text": "I want to play a piece in which you're featured at the piano. It's a composition that you wrote called \"Dorothy.\" My guest Dr. John, Mac Rebennack, at the piano. Thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, I just have always looked at myself as just a musician that plays in a rhythm section. I feel very awkward being called a piano player, a something, 'cause what I do is, like, not necessaril"}
{"id": "733722341", "date": "2019-06-19", "guest": "Ava Duvernay", "title": "Ava DuVernay Focuses On The Central Park 5's Perspective: 'Now People Know'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest Ava DuVernay has dramatized the story of the Central Park Five in the new four-part Netflix series \"When They See Us,\" which she produced, directed and co-wrote. The Central Park Five was the name given to five black and brown boys age 14 to 16, who, in 1989, were accused of brutally raping and nearly killing a woman who was jogging in Central Park. They became symbols of crime in New York City. Donald Trump took out full-page ads in the city's four newspapers, calling for the death penalty. The five were convicted based on confessions they made shortly after they were arrested; confessions they soon after said were coerced. In 2002, the real rapist confessed, and his DNA matched the evidence found on the victim's body. He was a serial rapist, who always acted alone. And he testified that the five had nothing to do with the rape. In 2002, after the five collectively served over three decades in prison, their convictions were vacated. A year later, they filed a civil lawsuit against New York City. In 2014, they collectively received a $41 million settlement, but they couldn't get back the years of their lives they'd lost in prison. Ava DuVernay also directed the film \"Selma,\" which dramatized a chapter of the civil rights movement, and \"13th,\" a documentary about mass incarceration and its echoes of the eras of slavery and Jim Crow. Ava DuVernay, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Did you know much about their story before you made this series?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "733722341", "date": "2019-06-19", "guest": "Ava Duvernay", "title": "Ava DuVernay Focuses On The Central Park 5's Perspective: 'Now People Know'", "question_index": 1, "text": "All five were interviewed for the Ken Burns documentary, but one of them was voice only. He didn't want his face on camera. He wanted to keep his privacy. And I'm wondering how the five young - how the five men - I mean, they're in their mid-40s now - how they felt about having the story told again and having the dramatic version out there again with actors playing them because on the one hand, it's a story in which their charges were vacated. So they're - you know, they are not guilty. At the same time, they probably want to put the story behind them to some degree, if that's possible. So how did they feel about having you tell the story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "something else, but it is - it's not a wolf pack of animal-like thugs going into the park to, you know, torture and demean and assault and rape people. That's not what wiling out means. So part of wha"}
{"id": "733722341", "date": "2019-06-19", "guest": "Ava Duvernay", "title": "Ava DuVernay Focuses On The Central Park 5's Perspective: 'Now People Know'", "question_index": 2, "text": "I could see why after being disbelieved for so many years, that some of the five men would feel uncomfortable having to go through the process of telling their story again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they are all individuals, so they all felt differently about it. You know, you speak of Antron McCray, who did not go on camera for the Burns doc. I remember flying out to Atlanta to see him. Yo"}
{"id": "733722341", "date": "2019-06-19", "guest": "Ava Duvernay", "title": "Ava DuVernay Focuses On The Central Park 5's Perspective: 'Now People Know'", "question_index": 3, "text": "So from having talked to the five men, give us an example of one of the stories that one of them told you about why they agreed to a confession that was not true, why they agreed to implicate themselves by saying that they did things that they didn't do.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. No, definitely. That kind of - because their storytelling had happened all in an institutional framework, right? They're telling it in a precinct and not being believed. The story's being contor"}
{"id": "733722341", "date": "2019-06-19", "guest": "Ava Duvernay", "title": "Ava DuVernay Focuses On The Central Park 5's Perspective: 'Now People Know'", "question_index": 4, "text": "So point accepted. But what were some of the ways that you think the boys were manipulated by the police and prosecutors to give the false stories that they gave, to give the false confessions that they made?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. I take issue with the word agreed. I mean, we're talking about minors. We're talking about minors who are in rooms alone with police officers who are aggressive, who have guns on their b"}
{"id": "733722341", "date": "2019-06-19", "guest": "Ava Duvernay", "title": "Ava DuVernay Focuses On The Central Park 5's Perspective: 'Now People Know'", "question_index": 5, "text": "You mean they were prompted to say things that they added?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Some of the ways that we show in the piece are that they were without their parents. They were not given food or water. They were asked to repeat the story, and details were inserted into the story th"}
{"id": "733722341", "date": "2019-06-19", "guest": "Ava Duvernay", "title": "Ava DuVernay Focuses On The Central Park 5's Perspective: 'Now People Know'", "question_index": 6, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Ava DuVernay, and her new Netflix series dramatizes the story of the five men who were known as the Central Park Five. The convictions were vacated. They received a total of $41 million in a settlement from the city of New York. And she tells their story in this new Netflix series, and it's called \"When They See Us.\" We'll be right back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were - the stories were repeated and repeated again and again by both parties, and details were added through repetition. And so that was one of - that's one of the ways. Many of the tactics that"}
{"id": "733722341", "date": "2019-06-19", "guest": "Ava Duvernay", "title": "Ava DuVernay Focuses On The Central Park 5's Perspective: 'Now People Know'", "question_index": 7, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Ava DuVernay. She produced, directed and co-wrote the new Netflix series \"When They See Us,\" which dramatizes the story of the five young men - who are now middle-aged men - who became known as the Central Park Five after they were accused and then, based on false and coerced confessions, convicted of raping and assaulting a woman who was jogging in Central Park. When - about 12 years later, when the convictions were vacated, they sued the city of New York and, years later, won a total of $41 million in a settlement. They lied about each other as part of these coerced confessions. And they named the names of the other young men who were in the five. How did they realize they had lied about each other and had incriminated each other? - 'cause they didn't even all know each other.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were - the stories were repeated and repeated again and again by both parties, and details were added through repetition. And so that was one of - that's one of the ways. Many of the tactics that"}
{"id": "733722341", "date": "2019-06-19", "guest": "Ava Duvernay", "title": "Ava DuVernay Focuses On The Central Park 5's Perspective: 'Now People Know'", "question_index": 8, "text": "And, you know, after making these coerced confessions, they recanted the confessions. And they never backed down from recanting, even after they were in prison and some of them were offered, you know, parole if they just, you know, took responsibility for the crimes that they committed. They said, we didn't commit those crimes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Only two of the five knew each other. And it wasn't until four of them were put in a cell together at the end of the interrogation period, after they'd all - or four of the five had been taped,"}
{"id": "733722341", "date": "2019-06-19", "guest": "Ava Duvernay", "title": "Ava DuVernay Focuses On The Central Park 5's Perspective: 'Now People Know'", "question_index": 9, "text": "So Linda Fairstein, who was the head of the New York DA's sex crimes unit, is depicted in your film as, like, bending the truth in order to convict the five. And she - after your series came out, she resigned from several boards of directors, including the board of Vassar, her alma mater. She was dropped by her book publisher and dropped by her agent. Oh, and I should say Elizabeth Lederer, the lead prosecutor in the case - she resigned after your series from her position as an adjunct faculty member at Columbia University Law School. Do you think that those repercussions were a result of new information that you uncovered, or do you think they were a result of just making what was already known more visible by dramatizing it and getting a big reaction, a big response as a result?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. Even Korey Wise, who - 13-some years in prison in the worst prisons in New York state - never wavered from the truth, which was that he didn't do it, and lying had gotten him to that pla"}
{"id": "733722341", "date": "2019-06-19", "guest": "Ava Duvernay", "title": "Ava DuVernay Focuses On The Central Park 5's Perspective: 'Now People Know'", "question_index": 10, "text": "What was your reaction to Linda Fairstein having, you know - like, resigning from Vassar and being dropped by her publisher and her agent?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I mean, everything that's in the piece is public record and is out there. It'd been - it had been told before by journalists in books, in articles, in documentary, in podcasts. I mean, the story h"}
{"id": "733722341", "date": "2019-06-19", "guest": "Ava Duvernay", "title": "Ava DuVernay Focuses On The Central Park 5's Perspective: 'Now People Know'", "question_index": 11, "text": "My guest is Ava DuVernay. She produced, directed and co-wrote the new Netflix series \"When They See Us,\" which dramatizes the stories of the Central Park Five. We'll hear more after a break, and film critic Justin Chang will review \"Toy Story 4.\" I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think I had the reaction that most people thought I would have. I mean, it was just information. It didn't really elicit any kind of big emotion. I mean, I certainly feel like people should be"}
{"id": "733722341", "date": "2019-06-19", "guest": "Ava Duvernay", "title": "Ava DuVernay Focuses On The Central Park 5's Perspective: 'Now People Know'", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross, back with Ava DuVernay, who produced, directed and co-wrote the new Netflix series, \"When They See Us,\" which dramatizes the stories of the Central Park Five, the five boys, aged 14 to 16, who were accused and convicted of raping a woman who was jogging in Central Park in 1989. Their convictions were based on coerced confessions. In 2002, the real rapist confessed to the crime, and his DNA matched what was on the victim's body. After collectively serving more than three decades in prison, the five had their convictions vacated. They sued the city of New York and, in 2014, won a collective settlement of $41 million. One of the things you did on the set was have a counselor on the set available in case, like, people got really emotional and just, like, needed to talk with someone, at least that was my understanding of it. Were people who were making the movie triggered by some of the stories that they were telling?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think I had the reaction that most people thought I would have. I mean, it was just information. It didn't really elicit any kind of big emotion. I mean, I certainly feel like people should be"}
{"id": "733722341", "date": "2019-06-19", "guest": "Ava Duvernay", "title": "Ava DuVernay Focuses On The Central Park 5's Perspective: 'Now People Know'", "question_index": 13, "text": "Were people who were making the movie triggered by some of the stories that they were telling?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The counselors weren't on set; there was a hotline, a counseling hotline. We shoot at all times of the day and night, depending on what the scene is. And so at any point, if someone wanted to - in the"}
{"id": "733722341", "date": "2019-06-19", "guest": "Ava Duvernay", "title": "Ava DuVernay Focuses On The Central Park 5's Perspective: 'Now People Know'", "question_index": 14, "text": "A lot of the final episode is devoted to the story of Korey. And his story is just, like, particularly heartbreaking. He was charged only because he agreed to accompany his friend who was being picked up on - by the police on the night of the attack in Central Park. And Korey's name wasn't even on the list of people who they were rounding up. He was just - the cop said to him, why don't you come to the station house with your friend? And so to be loyal to his friend, he came along, ends up making a false confession, ends up getting convicted and ends up being the only one of the five who's tried as an adult and is sent to adult prisons, where he's repeatedly brutalized and assaulted. And also, I think what makes hard - it harder for him is that either he can't read well or he can't read at all - I wasn't quite sure, like, if he could read at all. But that makes it harder for him to figure out what's going on sometimes. And also, he was born - or early in childhood had a hearing impairment, so his speech is a little bit slurred. And, like, I think all of those things must have added up to make his years just especially difficult. And I'm wondering, having met all of these men when they were in their 40s, if you feel that he is still, like, suffering a lot because of all of these extra things that he was exposed to.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A lot of people shared how they felt, shared what they were learning. The crew that's, you know, physically on set while the film is being shot during principal photography through to the colorist, yo"}
{"id": "733722341", "date": "2019-06-19", "guest": "Ava Duvernay", "title": "Ava DuVernay Focuses On The Central Park 5's Perspective: 'Now People Know'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Right, he did more years than the others.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. I mean, he's definitely suffering. He did 13 years. His childhood - his youth was stolen from him. He..."}
{"id": "733722341", "date": "2019-06-19", "guest": "Ava Duvernay", "title": "Ava DuVernay Focuses On The Central Park 5's Perspective: 'Now People Know'", "question_index": 16, "text": "You mean it was even worse than you depict?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, youth was stolen from him. And so yeah, I mean he's definitely affected by all of that. And you know, he's trying to make his way through a new life. You know, he always says, life after death, "}
{"id": "733722341", "date": "2019-06-19", "guest": "Ava Duvernay", "title": "Ava DuVernay Focuses On The Central Park 5's Perspective: 'Now People Know'", "question_index": 17, "text": "More beatings?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was more. There was more."}
{"id": "733722341", "date": "2019-06-19", "guest": "Ava Duvernay", "title": "Ava DuVernay Focuses On The Central Park 5's Perspective: 'Now People Know'", "question_index": 18, "text": "So Ken Burns' documentary was made before the city awarded $41 million to the five in the settlement of the five's lawsuit against the city. And also, when the Burns documentary was made, President Trump was not - he was just Donald Trump. He wasn't president yet. So first, I want to ask you about Trump - what it's like to see the role that he played in being a megaphone for finding the Central Park Five guilty before they were even tried. You know, just, like, days after they were arrested and charged, he took out full-page ads in all of New York's four major newspapers, saying, bring back the death penalty; bring back our police. And this was an argument for the death penalty, basically for children. I mean, there were 14, 15 and 16 years old. So I'm just interested in what it was like for you to see his role in the Central Park Five.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was more damage done to him, more darkness, more trauma. And so whenever he's in front of me, I just think he's a miracle. Even when he's not in front of me, I think about him so much. We've bec"}
{"id": "733722341", "date": "2019-06-19", "guest": "Ava Duvernay", "title": "Ava DuVernay Focuses On The Central Park 5's Perspective: 'Now People Know'", "question_index": 19, "text": "My guest is Ava DuVernay. She produced, directed and co-wrote the new Netflix series \"When They See Us,\" which dramatizes the story of the Central Park Five. We recorded our interview Monday. Yesterday, when President Trump was asked about the case, he said, they admitted their guilt. He didn't acknowledge those admissions were made in coerced confessions. We'll hear more of my interview with Ava DuVernay after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, well, he played a very famous role in the case, you know, with taking out the ads. But ultimately, you know, he's not the story. And so I made the decision just to keep it very - you know, use hi"}
{"id": "733722341", "date": "2019-06-19", "guest": "Ava Duvernay", "title": "Ava DuVernay Focuses On The Central Park 5's Perspective: 'Now People Know'", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Ava DuVernay. She directed the film \"Selma\" and the documentary the \"13th\" about racial injustice in the justice system. Her new, four-part Netflix series \"When They See Us\" dramatizes the story of the Central Park Five. I think it was hard for the five men after they got out of prison. Four of them got out before the convictions were vacated. Korey got out after they were vacated. I think it was hard for them to find their place in the world and make a living. You know, there's a lot stacked against you when you've been - when you spent years in prison and when you were named in this notorious case, even if you're exonerated, even if the convictions are vacated. But when the city finally awarded a settlement - a total for all of them - you know, a combined total of $41 million - did the money - was the money helpful? I know the money can't - as they've all pointed out, the money can't buy back the years of their life that were taken away. The money can't buy the - buy back the youth that they were robbed of, but it's better to have money than not. So was the money helpful? You know, one of the things Korey did with it was contribute to an innocence project and to working on the subject of false confessions. But can you talk a little bit about the settlement and, you know, ways in which it changed their lives, if it did?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, well, he played a very famous role in the case, you know, with taking out the ads. But ultimately, you know, he's not the story. And so I made the decision just to keep it very - you know, use hi"}
{"id": "733722341", "date": "2019-06-19", "guest": "Ava Duvernay", "title": "Ava DuVernay Focuses On The Central Park 5's Perspective: 'Now People Know'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Can you tell us something about their lives now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Generally, money is helpful when you don't have it. So, you know, Kevin Richardson is working the night shift as a janitor at a convalescent home, making minimum wage and unable to pay his rent. You k"}
{"id": "733722341", "date": "2019-06-19", "guest": "Ava Duvernay", "title": "Ava DuVernay Focuses On The Central Park 5's Perspective: 'Now People Know'", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I love them a lot. You know, they're really - I mean, I could cry just thinking about them all. They're good, good guys. You know, three of them live in Atlanta. It's funny because, you know, Antron"}
{"id": "733722341", "date": "2019-06-19", "guest": "Ava Duvernay", "title": "Ava DuVernay Focuses On The Central Park 5's Perspective: 'Now People Know'", "question_index": 23, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wait, in the back, too? Oh, no. Wait, what? And so, shortly thereafter, Raymond picks up, and he moves to Atlanta. And then a few months after that, Yusef picks up and moves to Atlanta. So three of th"}
{"id": "733722341", "date": "2019-06-19", "guest": "Ava Duvernay", "title": "Ava DuVernay Focuses On The Central Park 5's Perspective: 'Now People Know'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Ava DuVernay, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's - people love him. They respect him. They look out for him. They give him a lot of love there. And that's why he likes it. It's home. So that's what the five of them are doing, you know, in diffe"}
{"id": "733722341", "date": "2019-06-19", "guest": "Ava Duvernay", "title": "Ava DuVernay Focuses On The Central Park 5's Perspective: 'Now People Know'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Ava DuVernay produced, directed and co-wrote the four-part Netflix series \"When They See Us.\" After we take a short break, film critic Justin Chang will review \"Toy Story 4.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Bill Hader, became famous as a performer and writer on \"Saturday Night Live\" for his original characters like Stefon and his impressions of people like Vincent Price. Now Hader stars in the HBO series \"Barry,\" which he co-created, co-writes, and he serves as one of the directors. Seasons 1 and 2 are available on demand, and the show's been renewed for a third. Last year, after Season 1, Hader won the Emmy for best lead actor in a comedy series. Hader plays Barry, a Marine who's suffered from depression and PTSD ever since returning from Afghanistan. After feeling useless back home, he became a hit man doing what he knew he was good at, shooting people. One hit he's assigned is in LA, where his job is to kill a young man who's having an affair with the wife of the crime boss. As Barry pursues his target, who's a personal trainer and acting student, Barry sits in on the acting class, ends up doing a scene and thinks maybe he can transform his life by becoming an actor. In this scene from Season 1, Barry asks the acting teacher, Gene Cousineau, if he can join the class. Cousineau is played by Henry Winkler, who also won an Emmy last year for his performance in \"Barry.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 1, "text": ", Bill Hader, welcome back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Gene Cousineau) Gene M. Cousineau. I look forward to this journey."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 2, "text": "I love the series.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Well, that clip kind of summarizes part of what the first season was about, Barry knowing that he's a good hit man but truly wanting a different life. And he has trouble speaking the truth onstage. But when he speaks it offstage, like he did in that scene, people don't always believe him 'cause he seems so preposterous.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hi."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 4, "text": "And that's a kind of constant thing in the series. When people, like, act the truth, people don't necessarily want to hear it. When they act the more, you know, stage version of the truth, that's a distortion of the truth, people, like, give him accolades.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 6, "text": "It's a bummer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know? People like a nice story."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know? People like a nice story."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Yeah. How did the idea of a hit man who wants to be an actor get started? Like, what was the germ of that idea?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", It's a bummer. Yeah. We - that was the thing we kept saying. It was like, that was a bummer. Yeah. That was, like, it was a real bummer. And so yeah, a lot of times, you know, in Season 2, the whole"}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 9, "text": "So you weren't buddies? Like, somebody, like, played matchmaker?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Alec Berg and I were kind of put together by our mutual agent. This is back in 2014."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 10, "text": "So what was that first idea?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It was just kind of..."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". You know? Like, I just was like, I can't really get into this. I mean, we have bits. There's comedy bits. But where's the emotion? Where's the story? And really, where are the stakes to it, you know"}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Bill Hader. He's the co-creator, the star, co-writer and a director of the HBO series \"Barry.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I hate hit men. And then he said, hit man's like dog catcher. There's more in television and movies than there are in real life. You know? There's not - hit man, what is that? You know? I go, but w"}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Bill Hader. He first became known for his work as a performer and writer on \"Saturday Night Live.\" And now he's the co-creator, star, co-writer, co-producer and one of the directors of the HBO series \"Barry.\" And he plays a Marine who served in Afghanistan and returns home with a very guilty conscience. And when he comes home, the best work he can find is using the skill he has and becoming a hitman. But on his way to carrying out an assignment as a hitman in LA, he decides he really wants to be an actor and access all the emotions that he's been blocking.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I hate hit men. And then he said, hit man's like dog catcher. There's more in television and movies than there are in real life. You know? There's not - hit man, what is that? You know? I go, but w"}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Yes. Sounds improbable, yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 15, "text": "What?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, when you say it, you're like, oh, man..."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, when you say it, you're like, oh, man..."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 17, "text": "No, but I love it because if it ends up having - like, it has a lot of humor, but it also has, like, a surprising amount of emotional depth. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 18, "text": "And that leads us to the next clip I want to play. You know, in the second season, there is a kind of twist on the first clip that we played, where Barry is telling his acting teacher, Henry Winkler, that, you know, his buddy - that Barry's buddy was shot in Afghanistan when Barry was a Marine there, and Barry took revenge and killed the man he thought was the shooter, but it was the wrong man. And he suffered from guilt ever since. But what he's not confessing in the scene is, A, that he's a hitman, and, B, that he's killed Cousineau's girlfriend Janice, who was a cop and was onto the fact that Barry was a hitman. That happened in season one. So in this part, Barry is telling his teacher, Gene Cousineau, played by Henry Winkler, about the emotional aftermath of shooting the wrong man in Afghanistan.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 19, "text": "That's a scene from the HBO series \"Barry\" with my guest Bill Hader and Henry Winkler. And Bill Hader co-created, co-writes and also directs several episodes of the series. So that's just such a great scene about - now that we've told you you have to be honest, make sure you hide the truth. Another question raised in that clip that we just heard are, you know, are we capable of change? Can we change our nature?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Gene Cousineau) Listen to me. I have a son. I was terrible to this son. I was cruel. I was selfish. And there's nothing I can do to change that. But I don't want to be that guy anymore. And I pray"}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 20, "text": "Is that a question you ask yourself a lot? I know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 21, "text": "...I ask that question...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 22, "text": "...All the time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You constantly - yeah, you're kind of going am I stuck..."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Yes, yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Am I stuck with these tools? Am I stuck with these neuroses? Am I stuck with..."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...This personality thing?"}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 26, "text": "Mmm hmm. I sometimes think as therapy - of therapy as being a kind of a - as holding out hope that they're - that you are capable of some change, that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Can I change it? And you keep falling back into it. And it's a part of life. As you get older, you start to get a little bit more, I think, worried about it 'cause you go, oh, I'm still doing - still "}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 27, "text": "...Change is possible.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm hmm."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 28, "text": "Mmm hmm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's just the hope to keep working towards it and knowing like, OK. I'm going to fall back, But I'm aware of it."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 29, "text": "Was writing on \"Saturday Night Live\" - did that involve the same kind of emotional, like, vulnerability and sharing that you're describing happens in the writers room for \"Barry?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK, that's a good thing. I'm aware of it."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 30, "text": "So one of the pleasures of watching \"Barry\" is that there's a lot of intentionally bad acting in it and some intentionally bad, like, monologues in it because it's about acting students who, you know, don't necessarily know what they're doing yet. And of course, Barry doesn't really know how to act yet. Sometimes he really nails it because it's so consonant with the emotions that he's feeling at the moment, but other times, he doesn't get it at all. My favorite not-getting-it-at-all moment is when he does a short scene from \"Glengarry Glen Ross,\" and it's the very famous scene. It's Alec Baldwin's scene where he's, like, the guy from headquarters who comes in to tell all these scam artists who are selling, like, terrible real estate - like, worthless real estate by phone to people - and he comes in to tell them that, like, unless they shape up, they're fired. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was more like, here's a dumb idea we have. And how do we, you know - I mean, if it was a satirical thing - but never the kind of emotional stuff, in my experience there - but it was more of a - i"}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 31, "text": "So the first thing I want to do is play Alec Baldwin doing the role.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 32, "text": "OK. So here's Alec Baldwin in \"Glengarry Glen Ross.\" And this is a David Mamet play and then movie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 33, "text": "OK. Now let's hear how you do it, Bill Hader, portraying Barry, who is in acting class. He wants to be a good actor. He doesn't really know how to do it. So here is Barry doing that scene from \"Glengarry Glen Ross.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Blake) You certainly don't, pal, 'cause the good news is you're fired. The bad news is you've got - all of you've got just one week to regain your job, starting with tonight - starting with tonigh"}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 34, "text": "That is so funny. So can you talk about deciding to do a really bad version of that very famous scene and the kind of, like, good-natured, like, I'm-here-to-give-you-prizes attitude that you have in acting it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're making me nauseous. Yeah."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 35, "text": "The guy who's assigned to him - his hit - you know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He doesn't understand the context of it at all. Well, that was a thing that - it was helpful in the writing - was we said, we need to get the - Barry's problem in that episode is that he couldn'"}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 36, "text": "His handler as a hit man - yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, his..."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 37, "text": "My guest is Bill Hader, co-creator, co-writer and star of the HBO dark comedy series \"Barry.\" After a break, we'll talk about the anxiety and panic attacks he dealt with performing live on \"Saturday Night Live\" when he was a cast member. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "His - yeah - his hit man agent, if you will, who's constantly bullying him to do stuff. And we - I remember Alec and I talking and saying that he should learn how to do this in the acting class. The a"}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 38, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Bill Hader, a former \"Saturday Night Live\" writer and cast member. Now he's the star of the HBO series \"Barry,\" which he co-created, co-writes and serves as one of the directors. Seasons 1 and 2 are available on demand. The show's been renewed for a third season. Hader plays Barry, a Marine veteran who served in Afghanistan and returned with PTSD - and no sense of purpose in life - until a friend of the family convinced him to use his marksmanship skills to become a hitman. A man he's assigned to kill has been taking acting classes, which leads Barry to sit in on the class. Barry wants to be part of that world and starts taking the class himself. The teacher stresses that actors must draw on their past and express the truth. Throughout the series, we see how impossible it is for Barry to express the truth because he's hiding his guilt for certain actions in Afghanistan and for the murders he's been hired to commit. So I want to get back to the idea of, you know, acting as truth-telling, as telling some, like, emotional truth and drawing that emotional truth from deep within yourself. So did you ever go through that kind of soul-searching as an actor? You didn't go to acting school, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "His - yeah - his hit man agent, if you will, who's constantly bullying him to do stuff. And we - I remember Alec and I talking and saying that he should learn how to do this in the acting class. The a"}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 39, "text": "So, like, what kinds of experiences or secondhand experiences are you basing that class on where it's all about, like, getting to the emotional truth? And sometimes, like, the acting teacher will emotionally push one of the students to the edge to get them to the point where they're ready to, like, be emotionally naked on stage.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I went to Second City LA. I just - I learned just improv. But not - I never took an acting class, really, like the one that's in the show."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 40, "text": "Oh, as research for the series.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we - I mean, we went to acting classes and audited them and stood - sat in the back."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 41, "text": "One of the students.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then at some point, Alec just had to go because some of the people would recognize, me and it would be weird and - what is he doing here? And so Alec would kind of go by himself. But we saw - in t"}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 42, "text": "Oh, really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Where - one of the students - where he berates her into getting the right emotional response. And we - Alec saw that."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 43, "text": "Yeah, the acting teacher in the series, the Henry Winkler character - Henry Winkler basically says to the acting student, you know what I call that? That's fake acting. And he's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He ended up calling me, saying, I just saw this thing where this guy just went after this actress hard to get her to this place. And then she started doing the scene, and she was really, you know, cry"}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 44, "text": "...Really, like, mean. But then...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 45, "text": "...But then she gives this, like, really brilliant performance afterwards. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. He calls her babe and chick and..."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 46, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he discloses a private conversation they had to the class. He says, isn't that what you told me? That, you know, you don't think you can make it? And he..."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 47, "text": "The first time I interviewed you, I didn't know about this, but apparently, when you were on \"Saturday Night Live,\" you had a lot of anxiety about performing live and even had, like, a panic attack, I think, while the show was on while you were...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Starts belittling her, and she starts crying. You know, she's betrayed. He's telling the whole class this thing she don't want anybody to know about. And then he says, don't think. Just do the scen"}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 48, "text": "...While you were doing a bit playing Julian Assange.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. On the air, I had a panic attack."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 49, "text": "Can you describe what happened then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I was doing - playing Julian Assange during a panic attack. It was fun."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 50, "text": "Well, that seemed like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I was doing Julian Assange. It was Jeff Bridges hosting. And I don't know what happened, but I suddenly went, I can't breathe. It felt like - it just felt like I was dying. I just - that's the o"}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 51, "text": "...Unusual things to worry - like 'cause...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And, like, attack us."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 52, "text": "I thought you'd be worrying about, you know, like, I'm going to forget my lines. I didn't...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah, yeah, it got crazy. It got a little..."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 53, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, and you forget your lines and things."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 54, "text": "My guest is Bill Hader, a former \"Saturday Night Live\" cast member and writer. He's the co-creator and star of the HBO series \"Barry.\" We'll pick up where we left off after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know? And he goes, well, that's an emotion you understand. We can write that."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 55, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Bill Hader, co-creator and star of the HBO series \"Barry.\" When we left off, we were talking about his years as a cast member on \"Saturday Night Live\" and the anxiety and panic attacks he dealt with because the show was live in front of an audience. You know, it's funny when you're - when someone like me is at home watching \"Saturday Night Live,\" watching the performers do really funny things, I'm thinking like, God, they're so lucky. They're having such a good time doing this. You can see what a good time they're having doing this. And you're telling me that, like, it was not - the performance part was not enjoyable. It was kind of terrifying.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know? And he goes, well, that's an emotion you understand. We can write that."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 56, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think that's - well, towards the end, I started laughing a lot in sketches, especially when I played the Stefon character and things like that."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 57, "text": "A phone in the - wow, how did that happen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, wow, the phone just went off in here - not my cell phone, it's the phone in the..."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 58, "text": "Yeah, I think that's it, Bill", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. Maybe they're calling me to get me out of here."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 59, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. Maybe they're calling me to get me out of here."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 60, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's it. It's like - it's Lorne Michaels. Shut up."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 61, "text": "This was when you were playing Stefon.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. All right, I'll start over. Well, actually, I say that - I joke about Lorne but, actually, he didn't mind the laughing because he said, if you were laughing about something that wasn't funny, I wo"}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 62, "text": "Did everyone on the show know about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Stefon, yeah - is that I was so wound tight beforehand. And what I always wanted to do with my hands when I was on set playing - doing sketch was what Stefon does, which is cover my face. I always wan"}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 63, "text": "So did you ever think, like, this kind of acting, this kind of live acting in front of an audience was bad for you and, therefore, you should stop doing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", which I don't blame them because it was this kind of - before everything, I think people got a bit like, all right, Bill. Relax, you know? You know, not talking a lot, staring down at my feet. I wou"}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 64, "text": "So I have to ask you about your eyes. On \"Saturday Night Live,\" you always - you have very big eyes. And you're one of those people who can, like, raise one eyebrow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, but I was getting more successful at it. Like, more people were noticing me from the show. So it was this weird thing where, you know, it takes time to kind of hit on that show for some people. "}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 65, "text": "And on \"Saturday Night Live,\" you always used your eyes great for comic effect. On \"Barry,\" staring into your eyes - like, when I look at your eyes on \"Barry,\" like, sometimes, your eyes are saying, like, thousand-yard stare - the stare of a soldier who's seen combat too long. Sometimes, it's a stare of someone with just, like, so much existential dread. And sometimes, it's the stare of somebody who has just become overtaken by rage and anger. And I wonder if you think about your eyes at all or whether it just kind of happens that your eyes communicate so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 66, "text": "Did you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 67, "text": "Is that because you want to save time and money and get everything made on time and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No, I would always do - I always do, like, two takes. I'm, like, did I say everything right? Are we good? OK, let's move on, you know?"}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 68, "text": "Just watching the takes is going to take forever.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Why would you do that? That makes - and now that I've done it, I'm like, wait. That's insane, you know? You don't need to do that."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 69, "text": "Let's take another break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Bill Hader, and he is the co-creator, star, co-writer, producer, also directs episodes of the HBO series \"Barry.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Could you do less?"}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 70, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and my guest is Bill Hader, who first became famous for his work as a writer and performer on \"Saturday Night Live.\" And now he's the co-creator, star, writer, co-producer, one of the directors of the HBO series \"Barry,\" where he plays a Marine who served in Afghanistan, comes home, uses his skills to become a hitman but learns during one of his assignments that what he really wants to do is act. And he's always asking himself, can he change his nature? Because there are flashbacks to Barry when he was a Marine in Afghanistan and because he's now a hitman, there's a fair amount of, like, guns and shooting in the series. And a couple of people that I've read have compared moments of \"Barry\" to moments of \"Taxi Driver.\" And in the last episode of the second season, there's actually shots that really look like the end of \"Taxi Driver,\" going up the stairs and the long hallway and everything. But one comparison I will make between you and Travis Bickle, De Niro's character in \"Taxi Driver,\" is that both he and you, when there is a gun in your hand or his hand, you become just, like, rigid.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Could you do less?"}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 71, "text": "You become, like, so stiff when you're carrying a gun.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm hmm."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 72, "text": "Do you - I mean, I don't think I'm reading that into it. I think you just kind of stiffen when the gun is in your hand.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 73, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, I don't - and I don't know. I don't know if that's the character or if that's me. I'm not a big - I don't like guns, so - I'm uncomfortable with them. You know, a lot of people go, oh, did"}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 74, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And you don't realize it. It's like being a musician and hearing a song and being like, oh, I really like the Beatles. But, yeah, I always felt like the relationship to violence in this show - again, "}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 75, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know?"}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 76, "text": "Well, he takes his bloody finger and puts it to his temple and shoots.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it's a homicide. You know, people keep forgetting after he does all that, he tries to kill himself, but he can't. He doesn't want to live anymore."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 77, "text": "That's odd.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah, to the cops. I mean, he's - it's about a guy who doesn't want to live anymore, and then, you know, he's hailed as a hero. And I like that. You know, it's like the clip you played earlier. "}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 78, "text": "I remember the last time you were on the show, you talked about how, when you were a child, you and your father watched a lot of movies. And some of them were really violent films like Sam Peckinpah's \"Straw Dogs\" and \"The Wild Bunch.\" What impression did those violent films make on you when you were young?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know? But how weird is that? It's very strange. It's a weird thing that I've - for some people, you know? And again, not saying this is everybody. I'm not making a generalization, but it's somet"}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 79, "text": "Stylized.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's interesting. You know, when you're young - yeah. You know, it's like kids - I don't know kids now, but, you know, that old - like, you know, you play army, and you play cowboy or, you k"}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 80, "text": "Who did you see \"Taxi Driver\" with at that age?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Stylized and a little glamorous in a weird way. It's kind of weirdly reveling in it in some way. I like \"Wild Bunch\" to a degree. \"Straw Dogs\" doesn't really hold up for me on a lot - for a lot of "}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 81, "text": "What did he tell you about? What did he have to say about the film?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My dad."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 82, "text": "Bill Hader, it's been great to talk with you again. I regret that our time is up. I look forward to Season 3 of \"Barry.\" Thank you so much for coming back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". He let me kind of just decide on my own what I thought. My parents were very young. I would - I mean, I have kids now. At that age, I wouldn't let them watch \"Taxi Driver,\" but he did. I mean, the o"}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 83, "text": "Bill Hader is a former \"Saturday Night Live\" writer and cast member. He now stars in the HBO comedy series \"Barry,\" which he co-created. Seasons 1 and 2 are available on demand, and the show has been renewed for a third season.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Thank you. This..."}
{"id": "734356166", "date": "2019-06-20", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 84, "text": "If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, like our interview with Ava DuVernay, producer, writer and director of the Netflix series \"When They See Us,\" which dramatizes the story of the Central Park Five, or our interview with geriatrician Dr. Louise Aronson about medical care for elder adults, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of our interviews. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Meyers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Mooj Zadie and Seth Kelley. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Thank you. This..."}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 0, "text": "John Prine, welcome to FRESH AIR. It is a pleasure to have you here. Is there a story behind that song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Summer's end's around the bend, just flying. The swimming suits are on the line, just drying. I'll meet you there for our conversation. I hope I didn't ruin your whole vacation. Well, you ne"}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 1, "text": "What about the melody?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the big story behind that particular song, \"Summer's End,\" first of all, it's my favorite track from \"The Tree Of Forgiveness.\" You know, it just came out so pretty. A good buddy of mine, Pat Mc"}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 2, "text": "The Elizabeth Cotten song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The melody is just another simple John Prine patented melody. I mean, all I'm try to do is play \"Freight Train,\" I think, you know?"}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 3, "text": "Wow. That's pretty strange. That's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just think of - yeah, that's how I learned to finger pick was - I learned how to finger pick by playing - trying to pick like Elizabeth Cotten and Mississippi John Hurt - so much so that I used to p"}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 4, "text": "So can you do it? Do you ever have to look down at your fingers when you're playing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, you're telling me."}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 5, "text": "Ha.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can't. My belly's too big."}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 6, "text": "You've been through a lot in the past few years. You've had neck cancer and lung cancer. Can we talk about how you were able to get back into shape to be able to perform and tour? I mean, the neck surgery severed nerves in your tongue. It damaged salivary glands. Did you have to learn to sing or speak again?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can't see my hands. Good thing I practiced in the dark."}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had to do some - they gave me a speech therapist. That was part of the therapy when I was just getting over the initial surgery - the neck surgery. That was a pretty big surgery. It was my first rea"}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 8, "text": "So you got a new voice, and you feel different about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I said, if you leave me with something - if I can make a noise, I said, I'll come out with a voice on the other end, you know? And the surgeon told me my golf swing would improve after surgery. I said"}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 9, "text": "That's really surprising, I think. Do you feel like your voice sounds more lived-in than it did before? I've heard singers complain that they've been through so much, and you don't hear it in their voice - you know, that they feel you don't hear it, that their voice doesn't sound as troubled as they feel or as worn as they feel or as experienced as they feel.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It dropped down lower, and it feels friendlier to me. So I can actually sit in the studio and listen to my singing play back. Before, I'd run the other way."}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 10, "text": "So you know, in addition to the neck surgery that you had for cancer, a few years later, you had lung cancer. And you had an operation on one of your lungs. So what was it like to learn how to be able to get enough breath to support your singing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, with me, my early recordings, I had a difficult time listening back to them because I was so nervous. I was kind of thrown into - I didn't expect to do this for a living, be a recording artist. "}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 11, "text": "I like that because it's tailored to who you are and what you do, as opposed to giving you, you know, just the standard exercises.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, luckily, I had a friend who was a trainer, you know? I mean, he's individually trained people for either weight loss and stuff like that. We were friends. We just like to get together and BS, yo"}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 12, "text": "So one more thing about the surgeries - I know you knew Roger Ebert, and he gave a boost to your career really early on before anybody knew you. He gave you a great review when you were just performing in Chicago before you'd recorded. And I don't know if you remained close. But he had cancer, and he had jaw surgery that basically left him unable to speak. I was wondering if you communicated with him at all about your surgery. I think he was still - he would've still been alive.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. I'm no good with that. If somebody tells me to work or exercise, I go the other way. I'll come up with an excuse."}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 13, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he - after Roger initially got, you know, sick, I was - I had played a show. And him and his wife came to it. And this was after my surgery. It was when I was out touring behind \"The Missing Yea"}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 14, "text": "That's great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Him even more so. He was really, at the particular time that he wrote a review on me, I was a mailman still. And I was just singing this one night a week in this Chicago club - the Fifth Peg on Wes"}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 15, "text": "This would have been about - what? - 1969?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I never had an empty seat after that. I was still - like I said, I was still making my living as a mailman. And I was singing, after that, three nights a week and two shows a night. And there was "}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 16, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Late 1970."}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 17, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is songwriter, singer and guitarist John Prine. We'll be back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, early '71 is when I got my record contract. I had a record come out by August of '71. Things happened really fast."}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is John Prine. I want to play another track from your new album \"The Tree Of Forgiveness.\" And all the songs on this are co-written. This one was co-written with Phil Spector. You started the song with him in 1978. I think you finished it for the new album. So how did you and Phil Spector meet up? I mean, my initial reaction was, wow, that doesn't seem to - that seems like a really unusual musical fit because, you know, my first thought was, like, Phil Spector - girl groups, the Ronettes, Darlene Love. Then I was thinking, well, Phil Spector did produce music by John Lennon later on. And he produced a Leonard Cohen album. So what brought you together with him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, early '71 is when I got my record contract. I had a record come out by August of '71. Things happened really fast."}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 19, "text": "So part of the lyric of \"God Only Knows\" is God only knows the price you pay for the ones you betray along the way. You didn't know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Robert Hilburn was the premiere music critic for the LA Times for about 35 years. And he was an early champion of my stuff. He was - like, out in the West Coast, that's how I kind of developed out the"}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yeah. Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, it's if I should betray myself today, then God only knows the price you pay."}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 21, "text": "So - thanks for the correction. So when you were writing this - I don't know if that line was written when you were working with Spector. But you could not have known...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 22, "text": "Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, that's one of the one's I - that's one of the one's I wrote just a week before..."}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 23, "text": "Yeah, because you could not have known he was going to commit murder and be in prison by the time you completed the song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I went in the studio."}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 24, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, that's not one of my talents. I'm not a..."}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 25, "text": "What was your reaction having written, you know, a song and a half with him? What was your reaction when you found out about the murder?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can't tell the future."}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 26, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, I was shocked but not shocked because I don't - I mean, I can't comment on whether I thought it was a - whether I thought it was first-degree murder or not, you know? But I do know he wa"}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 27, "text": "So let's talk about your background. You grew up in Maywood, Ill. Was that like a small town outside of Chicago?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's 2018 interview with songwriter and singer John Prine, whose best-known songs include \"Angel From Montgomery,\" \"Sam"}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 28, "text": "So was your father from Paradise, west Kentucky?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "background at all. You know? And I felt like I grew up in a good background where I had friends from all kind of places."}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 29, "text": "Did anyone from your family work in the coal industry?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was actually born down the road in Mercer, Ky. But he ended up over in Paradise because his father was a carpenter. And he'd work - like, he'd stay three months in a town, rent a house. And when th"}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 30, "text": "So you have a pretty famous song called \"Paradise\"...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, uh-uh. I mean, I had a few cousins that did, but most of them got out. Most of them went to Louisville; Dayton, Ohio; Detroit for work in the auto factories; or Chicago."}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 31, "text": "...That's about Paradise, Ky., and how beautiful it is and how the main character in your song wants to go back there. But his father tells him that it's basically too late because it's been hauled away by the coal trains. Did you see that happen to Paradise?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 32, "text": "Well...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was in the Army, and my dad sent me a newspaper clipping because he knew how much I liked Paradise when we would go there in my childhood. We would go there as much - as often as we could to see my "}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 33, "text": "So let's hear \"Paradise.\" And this is from your 1971 debut album, \"John Prine.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And - so I wrote the song probably just after I got out of the Army. I wrote it for my dad, I realized that years later - that I just wanted my dad to - I put him in the song so he would know I was a "}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 34, "text": "So that's John Prine's famous song \"Paradise\" from his 1971 debut album called \"John Prine.\" So you grew up with a lot of country music because of your father. Did you - it sounds like you turned toward it as opposed to rebelling against it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) When I was a child, my family would travel down to western Kentucky, where my parents were born. And there's a backwards old town that's often remembered so many times that my memories are w"}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 35, "text": "Your father died when he was 55. He had a massive heart attack on the front porch of your home. How old were you when that happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I learned it, you know, verbatim."}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 36, "text": "Oh, so he never heard it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was 24, and my first record was a month away from being released."}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 37, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is songwriter, singer and guitarist John Prine. We'll be back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I borrowed a tape recorder from another family. And I had a quarter-inch tape, and I took it to the house. And I played the record for him, and the last song on the record was \"Paradise.\" So when "}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 38, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is John Prine. I know you grew up near a junkyard and said that all the broken glass looked like a field of glittering diamonds. What was it like to grow up near a junkyard? Did you play in it? Was it...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I borrowed a tape recorder from another family. And I had a quarter-inch tape, and I took it to the house. And I played the record for him, and the last song on the record was \"Paradise.\" So when "}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 39, "text": "Were there things in there that you considered treasures? Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. We played in it all the time."}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 40, "text": "Were there junkyard dogs? Did you have to confront dogs in the junkyard, as well?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was our war zone. You know, that's where we'd go to play Army and go to play Cowboys and Indians. I remember one summer, there was these big industrial lightbulbs. And they had dumped them all in"}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 41, "text": "Like a mail route.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 42, "text": "Oh. Oh. Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "These were true junkyards - not somebody that owned a junkyard that was going to sell the stuff. This was, like, a city dump."}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 43, "text": "It was a dump. No, I think of a junkyard as being a business.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 44, "text": "Right. So when you returned from being in the military and serving in West Germany, you moved to Chicago. You moved from a suburb outside of Chicago to Chicago. And you became a mailman there. What neighborhoods did you deliver mail to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no. I know what you mean. Those kind of junkyards - the only ones I ever knew like that were ones with the - where you could take parts off of old autos."}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 45, "text": "Oh, it was in the suburbs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I became a mailman in the suburbs."}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 46, "text": "I didn't realize that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I never moved into Chicago. I stayed in the suburbs until I moved to Nashville."}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 47, "text": "So did you still live with your parents when you came back from the military?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was only, like - I was 10 miles directly from the lakefront. That's how close Maywood to the edge of Chicago. We grew up on Madison Avenue, which is the dividing line between North Chicago - the Nor"}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 48, "text": "How long did the marriage last?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I got married while I was in the service. And I married an Italian American girl. This was - she was my high-school girlfriend. And we lived in Melrose Park, the Italian community that bordered Ma"}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 49, "text": "I like the way you say that one lasted", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That one lasted - yikes."}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 50, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That one lasted - yikes."}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 51, "text": "Right. But...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I've been married three times."}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 52, "text": "That's pretty long. So how...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that was 13 years."}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 53, "text": "You've been married to your wife now for over 20 years.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks. Congratulations."}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 54, "text": "Yeah. Yeah. So was being a mailman a good job for somebody who was writing songs in their spare time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, 23."}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 55, "text": "Was that, like, maybe a good thing that your body was kind of occupied with walking the mail route, but your mind was free to think about lyrics without having to sit in a chair?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was great because there's really not much to do when you're a mailman. I mean, so maybe some mailmen make it into an actual job. But once you're out there on the same streets every day, and you rec"}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 56, "text": "Well, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because your mind don't want to be thinking about the weather..."}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 57, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And the dogs."}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 58, "text": "The dark? What time were you delivering mail?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it's a jungle out there, really. I was never so happy as the day I left the post office."}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 59, "text": "Oh, dogs. Oh, the dogs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Dogs, not the dark."}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 60, "text": "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Were you bitten?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, the ones that bite. Yeah."}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 61, "text": "Uh-oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yeah. I got bit in the best possible place..."}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 62, "text": "Yeah, I think I've seen that cartoon", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And ripped my pants and had to go over to ER. That was really embarrassing - having a mailman outfit on with the ass of your pants tore out, you know, and a dog bite. You look like a cartoon."}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 63, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And ripped my pants and had to go over to ER. That was really embarrassing - having a mailman outfit on with the ass of your pants tore out, you know, and a dog bite. You look like a cartoon."}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 64, "text": "So I want to close with another song from your new album. And I can't decide whether to play \"Boundless Love\" or \"I Have Met My Love Today.\" Do you want to choose one from those two?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There you go. I was the cartoon."}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 65, "text": "Tell me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, \"Boundless Love\" I got an interesting story about."}
{"id": "734391998", "date": "2019-06-21", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "John Prine On Music, Cancer And Why He Never Expected To Be A Recording Artist", "question_index": 66, "text": "Well, let's hear it. And, John Prine, it's been a great pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wrote that with three buddies of mine - David Ferguson (ph), Dan Auerbach from Black Keys and Pat McLaughlin. I thought I mentioned earlier that we wrote for about 30 years now together. Anyway, the"}
{"id": "737498507", "date": "2019-07-01", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "For Facebook Content Moderators, Traumatizing Material Is A Job Hazard", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. In order to prevent you from being exposed to graphic violence, pornography and hate speech on your Facebook feed, there are thousands of people who are paid to view objectionable posts and decide which need to be removed. These content moderators are described by my guest, journalist Casey Newton, as first responders performing a critical function on a platform with billions of users. He's been investigating the working conditions of these content moderators. He's interviewed current and former employees. And for the first time, three former employees have broken their nondisclosure agreements and spoken on the record. Newton reports that repeated exposure to these traumatizing posts has left some content moderators with mental health problems. As we'll hear, there are other problems in the workplace, too. Facebook contracts with other companies to hire the content moderators and provide office space. Originally, these sites were in other countries, but the operations have expanded to the U.S., including sites in California, Arizona, Texas and Florida. Later, we'll talk about how Facebook is preparing to launch what's been described as a Supreme Court to rule on contested content decisions. And we'll hear what Facebook's been doing in the lead-up to the 2020 election to try to protect users from disinformation and propaganda from Russia and other countries. Casey Newton covers the Silicon Valley for the tech site The Verge and writes the daily newsletter The Interface about the intersection of social media and democracy. Casey Newton, welcome to FRESH AIR. Give us a sense of what the content moderators have to look at in one typical day at work.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "737498507", "date": "2019-07-01", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "For Facebook Content Moderators, Traumatizing Material Is A Job Hazard", "question_index": 1, "text": "So you spoke to a lot of content moderators. Some of them broke their nondisclosure agreements to speak with you. What did they tell you about the psychological and emotional impact of watching some of the brutality and pornography and reading the hate that they have to look at on a daily level to do their job?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. So they are sitting at a computer workstation. They click a button that indicates they're ready to review content, and then they see a steady stream of text posts, images, videos. And they can b"}
{"id": "737498507", "date": "2019-07-01", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "For Facebook Content Moderators, Traumatizing Material Is A Job Hazard", "question_index": 2, "text": "I'm really surprised to hear that because, you know, you'd almost think it would be the other way around because they're supposed to be tutored in how to spot a conspiracy theory. And you'd think that they'd want to debunk it and not start subscribing to it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, as you might imagine, it's just really hard for them. The folks who I've spoken to, the ones who have reached out to me, have told me that this is work that has continued to haunt them even mont"}
{"id": "737498507", "date": "2019-07-01", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "For Facebook Content Moderators, Traumatizing Material Is A Job Hazard", "question_index": 3, "text": "Is there no attempt to put some of these posts in a larger social, political, gender, racial, ethnic, cultural context for the content moderators?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Although, in the training that these moderators received, they don't get trained on resiliency to fringe ideas, right? Like, what they get trained on is, should this stay up? Or should this come"}
{"id": "737498507", "date": "2019-07-01", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "For Facebook Content Moderators, Traumatizing Material Is A Job Hazard", "question_index": 4, "text": "So getting back to the, like, emotional and psychological impact of watching all these, like, violent and pornographic and hate-filled posts, you heard several stories about people who ended up buying guns for various reasons but for reasons that seemed related to the work. Can you give us an example?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well - so one of the ideas behind bringing these moderators to America was exactly that - that they would have a kind of natural context for understanding posts that would make them more adept at mode"}
{"id": "737498507", "date": "2019-07-01", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "For Facebook Content Moderators, Traumatizing Material Is A Job Hazard", "question_index": 5, "text": "You know, when you mentioned the pressure to be accurate - and people are supposed to be 98% accurate - accuracy is what? It's making the right decision on whether to delete a post or not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I remember talking to one man who himself had started to embrace some of these conspiracy views. He was the one who said that he no longer believed that 9/11 had happened. But he had a job at on"}
{"id": "737498507", "date": "2019-07-01", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "For Facebook Content Moderators, Traumatizing Material Is A Job Hazard", "question_index": 6, "text": "Let's take a short break here. And then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us my guest is Casey Newton. And he covers Silicon Valley for the tech site The Verge. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. The literal way that Facebook defines accuracy is, did you make the right decision? Should you - you know, did you take down the things that should be taken down? And did you leave up what ought "}
{"id": "737498507", "date": "2019-07-01", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "For Facebook Content Moderators, Traumatizing Material Is A Job Hazard", "question_index": 7, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Casey Newton. He covers Silicon Valley for the tech site The Verge and writes the daily newsletter The Interface about the intersection of social media and democracy. He's written two recent articles for The Verge, reporting on the working conditions of Facebook content moderators who purge the violent, pornographic and hate-speech posts from Facebook. So we've been talking about, like, the emotional and psychological effects on the content moderators of seeing all these, like, you know, hateful and violent and pornographic videos. But the physical working conditions are difficult, too. Tell us about, like, what they're allowed in terms of, you know, breaks and lunches and things like that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. The literal way that Facebook defines accuracy is, did you make the right decision? Should you - you know, did you take down the things that should be taken down? And did you leave up what ought "}
{"id": "737498507", "date": "2019-07-01", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "For Facebook Content Moderators, Traumatizing Material Is A Job Hazard", "question_index": 8, "text": "What about the pay people receive?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. To me, it is a huge part of this story because, as hard as the work itself is, I believe it's made exponentially harder by the physical environments of the job and the - sort of the way that it'"}
{"id": "737498507", "date": "2019-07-01", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "For Facebook Content Moderators, Traumatizing Material Is A Job Hazard", "question_index": 9, "text": "Now, the conditions that you've described and the salary you've described, really, it doesn't sound like what people expect that Facebook employees are faced with. But these people, the content moderators, aren't literally Facebook employees because Facebook contracts this work to other companies. Can you describe the arrangement Facebook has with the companies that actually hire and house the content moderators?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So in the United States, a moderator will be paid $15 an hour, which is $28,800 a year. That compares with a median pay package at Facebook that last year was $240,000 if you include salary, stock and"}
{"id": "737498507", "date": "2019-07-01", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "For Facebook Content Moderators, Traumatizing Material Is A Job Hazard", "question_index": 10, "text": "And are they full-time employees or are they, like, part-time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. So the model for this work is a call center, right? So let's say maybe you, you know, buy an appliance somewhere, and you're having a delivery issue, and you need to call someone to get it straig"}
{"id": "737498507", "date": "2019-07-01", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "For Facebook Content Moderators, Traumatizing Material Is A Job Hazard", "question_index": 11, "text": "What did Facebook and the subcontractor who runs two of the sites in America, the two that you visited - and that company's name is Cognizant - what did they have to say in response to your report on working conditions for the content moderators?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They are full-time employees, and Facebook will take pains to tell you that it treats them far better than it treats the average employee of the call center industry. So they get full health benefits,"}
{"id": "737498507", "date": "2019-07-01", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "For Facebook Content Moderators, Traumatizing Material Is A Job Hazard", "question_index": 12, "text": "My guest is Casey Newton. He covers the Silicon Valley for the tech site The Verge. After a break, we'll talk about the so-called Supreme Court that Facebook is trying to create for appealing controversial content decisions, and we'll discuss what Facebook has been doing to prepare for the 2020 election. And Ken Tucker will review country hits with a hip-hop sensibility by Lil Nas X and Blanco Brown. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But the first one is, Facebook has said it's going to give a $3 an hour raise to these contractors, so they would make a minimum of $18 an hour, which I think comes out to more like $36,000 a year. "}
{"id": "737498507", "date": "2019-07-01", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "For Facebook Content Moderators, Traumatizing Material Is A Job Hazard", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Casey Newton about Facebook and its content moderators. Those are the people who view posts that have been flagged as objectionable, including violent videos, pornography and hate speech, and decide which posts to remove. Newton has written two articles reporting on the content moderators' working conditions and the psychological impact of being repeatedly exposed to traumatizing content. Facebook contracts with other companies to employ, supervise and provide the office space for the moderators. These sites are located in several other countries as well as in the U.S. Casey Newton covers the Silicon Valley for the tech site The Verge and writes the newsletter The Interface about the intersection of social media and democracy. Facebook has had, I think, a big internal debate, and there's been a big national debate or international debate around Facebook about whether it's more like, say, the phone company that is a communications network that doesn't monitor the signals that are sent across it - it's not the job of any of the phone companies to listen into what you're saying and decide whether it passes certain standards or not - or whether Facebook is more like a newspaper or a magazine, a content provider where Facebook has some responsibility for what is posted on the site that it owns and profits from. So has Facebook been shifting in its perception of what it is and what its responsibility is to its users in terms of the content that Facebook is exposing them to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But the first one is, Facebook has said it's going to give a $3 an hour raise to these contractors, so they would make a minimum of $18 an hour, which I think comes out to more like $36,000 a year. "}
{"id": "737498507", "date": "2019-07-01", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "For Facebook Content Moderators, Traumatizing Material Is A Job Hazard", "question_index": 14, "text": "Was there a turning point, like a specific post or posts, that led them to decide, no, we need more content moderators; we need to take more responsibility for what is on Facebook?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think so. You know, there's a - there are a lot of journalists over the years who have pressed Facebook to admit it's a media company rather than a technology company, which I think kind of gets to "}
{"id": "737498507", "date": "2019-07-01", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "For Facebook Content Moderators, Traumatizing Material Is A Job Hazard", "question_index": 15, "text": "So Facebook is in the process of creating a content oversight board that's being described by a lot of people as, like, a Facebook Supreme Court for final judgment calls on content decisions and whether content should be purged or left on the site. And last Thursday, Facebook released a report summarizing the input that it got from a series of public listening meetings around the world. So describe what we know about what Facebook thinks the role of the content oversight board will be once it's created. And I know this is a work in progress, and Facebook doesn't really know yet. And it's still processing all the feedback and input it's gotten, but what do we know so far?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. It was the - the aftermath of the 2016 election completely changed public perception of Facebook, and in time, it changed Facebook's conception of itself. So in the 2016 election, Russians"}
{"id": "737498507", "date": "2019-07-01", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "For Facebook Content Moderators, Traumatizing Material Is A Job Hazard", "question_index": 16, "text": "And last week at the Aspen Ideas Festival, Mark Zuckerberg was interviewed by Cass Sunstein. And Zuckerberg said in the interview that he was hoping more of the industry would join in this project.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean, I think the first thing to say is just what an absolutely wild idea this is, right? So you have this private company that hosts a bunch of user posts. And they have decided that they're "}
{"id": "737498507", "date": "2019-07-01", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "For Facebook Content Moderators, Traumatizing Material Is A Job Hazard", "question_index": 17, "text": "So Facebook does have a booklet of community standards that's available for the public to read. I have never read it. I imagine most Facebook users haven't read it, but I imagine you have. Can you give a sense of, like, what some of the standards are and in guiding people as, like, what is violent? Like, what is too violent? Like, what is too sexual? What is too hateful and hate speech and has to be taken down?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And I'm actually sympathetic to that because one problem with our tech companies being so large now is that while they have increasing amounts of power over our lives, they are not really accoun"}
{"id": "737498507", "date": "2019-07-01", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "For Facebook Content Moderators, Traumatizing Material Is A Job Hazard", "question_index": 18, "text": "Can you think of an example when the rules changed, like, in the course of one day about what was acceptable and what wasn't for posting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think nudity offers a useful place to start. Often these guidelines that get written by companies start as a single page, and somebody at the company - typically not the most senior executive "}
{"id": "737498507", "date": "2019-07-01", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "For Facebook Content Moderators, Traumatizing Material Is A Job Hazard", "question_index": 19, "text": "Was it context - like, did you have to figure out what the context was if you were a content moderator, whether this was a term of affection or whether it was intended as an insult?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So there was this phenomenon that Facebook was seeing of young girls saying to each other something like, I love this ho, short for hooker. And Facebook's guidelines have traditionally said that you c"}
{"id": "737498507", "date": "2019-07-01", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "For Facebook Content Moderators, Traumatizing Material Is A Job Hazard", "question_index": 20, "text": "Right", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's exactly right. And so, you know, think about this. You're a moderator. You don't know these people. You're looking at one sentence and maybe a couple of comments underneath it, and now it's you"}
{"id": "737498507", "date": "2019-07-01", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "For Facebook Content Moderators, Traumatizing Material Is A Job Hazard", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's exactly right. And so, you know, think about this. You're a moderator. You don't know these people. You're looking at one sentence and maybe a couple of comments underneath it, and now it's you"}
{"id": "737498507", "date": "2019-07-01", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "For Facebook Content Moderators, Traumatizing Material Is A Job Hazard", "question_index": 22, "text": "OK. So an example that I read about in terms of content moderation is that the - a post that said autistic people should be sterilized was not taken down because autistic people aren't a protected group. What does that mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's very difficult."}
{"id": "737498507", "date": "2019-07-01", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "For Facebook Content Moderators, Traumatizing Material Is A Job Hazard", "question_index": 23, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Casey Newton. He covers Silicon Valley for the tech site The Verge. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Facebook uses a standard similar to a U.S. legal standard where certain classes of people are protected. So, you know, race is a great example - a classic example of a protected class. You're not a"}
{"id": "737498507", "date": "2019-07-01", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "For Facebook Content Moderators, Traumatizing Material Is A Job Hazard", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is Casey Newton. He covers Silicon Valley for the tech site The Verge, and he writes the daily newsletter The Interface about the intersection of social media and democracy. He's written two recent articles for The Verge reporting on the working conditions of Facebook's content moderators. These are the people who purge the violent, pornographic and hate speech posts. Social media, including Facebook, was used as a tool of the Russians to subvert our 2016 presidential election, and many Americans are very concerned about what the Russians or the Chinese or the Iranians or other actors might do to try to use social media to subvert the next presidential election. What is Facebook doing to prepare for the election?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Facebook uses a standard similar to a U.S. legal standard where certain classes of people are protected. So, you know, race is a great example - a classic example of a protected class. You're not a"}
{"id": "737498507", "date": "2019-07-01", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "For Facebook Content Moderators, Traumatizing Material Is A Job Hazard", "question_index": 25, "text": "So, you know, one of the things social media is trying to contend with now is extremists. For example, Facebook initially banned Alex Jones' network from the site, and then it banned Alex Jones himself. What are the guidelines that Facebook uses to decide who's too extreme to post?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it turns out that one pretty good, easy thing that you can do to reduce the risk of that kind of thing happening is to catch fake accounts. So Facebook has this ironclad rule that every account - y"}
{"id": "737498507", "date": "2019-07-01", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "For Facebook Content Moderators, Traumatizing Material Is A Job Hazard", "question_index": 26, "text": "Since you cover the Silicon Valley and social media on a regular basis and you have a daily newsletter, what are some of the things you're looking to in the near future, like issues that are emerging now or changes that you expect will emerge very soon?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a great question and one where the answer has changed pretty significantly over the past year. Last summer was when attention really started to turn on this question of Alex Jones and how he was "}
{"id": "737498507", "date": "2019-07-01", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "For Facebook Content Moderators, Traumatizing Material Is A Job Hazard", "question_index": 27, "text": "Casey Newton, thank you so much for your reporting, and thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think we are having a reckoning over the Internet globally because tech companies have gotten so big and so consequential. And so we are reckoning with this power, and you see it in a hundred differ"}
{"id": "737498507", "date": "2019-07-01", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "For Facebook Content Moderators, Traumatizing Material Is A Job Hazard", "question_index": 28, "text": "Casey Newton covers the Silicon Valley for the tech site The Verge and writes the newsletter The Interface about the intersection of social media and democracy. After we take a short break, Ken Tucker will review country hits with a hip-hop sensibility by Lil Nas X and Blanco Brown. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, Terry, it was an absolute pleasure."}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 0, "text": "Rhino Records put out a box set - a three-CD box set of your recordings, and they reissued this first recording that you made called \"No Place For Me,\" one of your songs. Why don't I play that very early recording?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ken Tucker reviewed \"Ride Me Back Home,\" the new studio album by Willie Nelson. Nelson's first album, called \"...And Then I Wrote,\" was released in 1962, when he was primarily a songwriter, and featur"}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 1, "text": "And we'll see how it sounded.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 2, "text": "That's Willie Nelson, his very first recording made in 1957. What were the circumstances under which this record was made?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Your love is as cold as the north wind blows and the river that runs to the sea. How can I go on when your only love is gone? I can see this is no place for me. The light in your eyes is sti"}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 3, "text": "And the kind of echo effect, the reverb - was that intentional, or was that just the sound of the room?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I wanted to make a record and wanted to sell it over my radio program. I was with KVAN in Vancouver, Wash. And I pressed up 500 copies and sold them on my radio show."}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 4, "text": "Right. So then what would happen with this record? You sold 500 copies on your radio show. Did you send it to a record company?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think there was a little echo in the room. But the - most of it was - there's a - there was an echo attachment on the recorder that we may have overdone a little bit."}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 5, "text": "You said when you were growing up, all the music kind of blended together. You were a disc jockey for a while. So did you have a persona on the air? Did you go by your own name? Did you have a different voice that you used?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there was a company out of Texas that if you sent them the money, they would press you up their copies. And they would sell them to you at their cost. And you could sell them and make a little p"}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 6, "text": "Whoa", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not really. I didn't have a different voice. But I used to open my show - when I first started out, I had some disc jockey heroes that I ripped off pretty thoroughly. And there was a guy named Eddie H"}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 7, "text": ". And did you write that yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not really. I didn't have a different voice. But I used to open my show - when I first started out, I had some disc jockey heroes that I ripped off pretty thoroughly. And there was a guy named Eddie H"}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 8, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 9, "text": "Now, how did you get to Nashville, where you started writing songs professionally?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But it's some of theirs and some of mine all put together."}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 10, "text": "I'm sorry. Did you say you wrote that in one week?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was living in Houston - in Pasadena, really, outside - working at another radio station there and playing clubs at night and writing songs. And I had written - one week I'd written \"Crazy,\" \"Funny H"}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 11, "text": "Geez. I wish I had a week like that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I was working..."}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 12, "text": "So just to make sure I'm hearing correctly, you wrote \"Crazy,\" \"Funny How Time Slips Away\" and \"Nightlife\" in one week?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was a great - that's when I decided maybe I ought to go to Nashville. And so I took off to Nashville in my '46 Buick that just barely made it. I think it died when it hit the city limits. I went "}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 13, "text": "Did you say to yourself, wow, these are three great songs that will become classics?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 14, "text": "Would you play one of those three for us now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm afraid I wasn't that knowledgeable. I wish I had known then what they were going to do. Maybe it's better that I didn't. I made enough mistakes as it was. But no, I had no idea that these so"}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 15, "text": "Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 16, "text": "That's such a terrific song. What came first when you were writing it? Was it the hook of crazy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Playing guitar, singing) Crazy, crazy for feeling so lonely. I'm crazy, crazy for feeling so blue. I knew that you'd love me as long as you wanted. And then someday you'd leave me for somebody new. W"}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 17, "text": "Now, how did Patsy Cline end up recording it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It must have been."}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 18, "text": "I think it was before you went to Nashville that you wanted to record your song \"Night Life,\" and one of the producers you were working with at the time - Pappy Daily - told you that you weren't country enough. Do I have that right?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1996 interview with Willie Nelson, who has a new album called \"Ride Me Back Home.\""}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 19, "text": "And did you prove it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, I recorded in Houston for Pappy Daily. And I recorded \"Family Bible,\" a couple of other songs. But \"Night Life,\" they wouldn't record it because they said it was too bluesy. It wasn't countr"}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 20, "text": "Would you sing the song for us now and maybe tell us about writing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That particular record, \"Night Life\" - I think it's still the best record of it. I did it with Paul Buskirk, Herb Remington, Dean Reynolds, some of the greatest jazz musicians around Houston."}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 21, "text": "What was your nightlife like when you wrote that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this is one of those songs that I wrote on the same week I wrote \"Crazy\" and \"Funny How Time Slips Away,\" driving back and forth from the Esquire Club to Pasadena every night. (Singing) When the"}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 22, "text": "Oh, as if to prove a point", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 23, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 24, "text": "Well, were you really cutting loose for a while? I mean, you were on your own, and you were starting to make money with your career as a songwriter.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 25, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah. I was, you know, throwing it away with both hands."}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 26, "text": "Were you married at the time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", but I had a lot of fun."}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 27, "text": "And did that bother you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I was."}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 28, "text": "All right. No, when you really started recording in Nashville - your own songs - did you feel you had any trouble fitting into country music as it was?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It bothered her."}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 29, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "At those - at that time?"}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 30, "text": "What were you called?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I just - I couldn't, you know? I didn't know how to take direction that well. So I wouldn't fit in any of these slots, and so I became one of those guys that, you know, they had to call something el"}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 31, "text": "There's a great album that came out, oh, about three years ago called \"Crazy: The Demo Sessions.\" And it's demo recordings that you made after you were a DJ", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli in for Terry Gross, back with another of Terry's conversations with country music singer and songwriter Willie Nelson. He has a new album out called \"Ride Me Bac"}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 32, "text": "when you got to Nashville. And these are - some of them are from the early 1960s. This one is. It's from 1961. It's just voice and guitar. It's a demo of his song \"Opportunity To Cry.\"", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli in for Terry Gross, back with another of Terry's conversations with country music singer and songwriter Willie Nelson. He has a new album out called \"Ride Me Bac"}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 33, "text": "That's Willie Nelson in a demo recording he made of his own song in 1961, when he was trying to interest people in recording his songs. What was the fate of that song? Did anybody ever do it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Just watched the sunrise on the other side of town. Once more, I've waited. And once more, you've let me down. This would be a perfect time for me to die. I'd like to take this opportunity t"}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 34, "text": "In your new book, you write, I've always had my own way of singing, and it was nothing like the way other Nashville stars sang. What did people think of your singing on the demos before you recorded yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think anybody'd done it but me. I'd recorded it maybe a couple of times since then. It was one of those really sad, almost pitiful songs."}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 35, "text": "When you said that your singing was different and your chords were different, do you think that the chords and the singing were more jazz-inflected in some ways? And had you listened to a lot of jazz?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I think a lot of the musicians understood what I was doing. And my phrasing was a little different, and my chords were a little strange, too. They weren't your normal three-chord country songs. An"}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 36, "text": "Did you sing when you were picking cotton?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had listened to a lot of different kinds of music, and I grew up listening to everything from Frank Sinatra to Hank Williams, so I'm sure I picked up a lot from, you know, every one of those g"}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 37, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, at the top of my voice."}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 38, "text": "What would you like to sing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 39, "text": "Now, in your new book \"The Tao of Willie,\" you say that you wrote your first cheating song when you were 7, long before you knew firsthand anything about broken hearts and cheating. When you started writing songs when you were older, did you know anything about, like, the structure of a 32-bar song or how to write the bridge to a song? Did you think of the song in technical terms when you started seriously writing them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I would sing what they were singing, you know? I would - they would be singing over there singing some blues, and I would sing some blues with them. I had no idea what I was doing, but I was tryin"}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 40, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I never did, and I still really don't. I just kind of write and sing what I feel like writing. And my timing is pretty good, so, you know, I don't break meter that much. And my ear is pretty good,"}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 41, "text": "You know, in talking about country songs, like - country songs have certain conventions in a way, you know? Like, a lot of country songs are about cheating or drinking too much or falling in love. I guess you could say the same thing about rock songs", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I come here knowing some things that I wrote about before I knew I knew."}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 42, "text": ". But there's also, like, a subcategory of country songs where, like, you're feeling so bad, you're just overwhelmed with self-pity. And one of the most self-pitying of the self-pitying songs is a song that you wrote that's included on your demo sessions that I really want to play and hear the story behind. So here it comes. This is Willie Nelson singing a very self-pitying song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I come here knowing some things that I wrote about before I knew I knew."}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 43, "text": "Then in the next verse, you imagine having only one eye, so he'd have only one eye to cry", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) If I'd only had one arm to hold you - better yet, if I'd had none at all, then I wouldn't have two arms that ache for you, and there'd be one less memory to recall. If I'd only..."}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 44, "text": ". Did you think of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) If I'd only had one arm to hold you - better yet, if I'd had none at all, then I wouldn't have two arms that ache for you, and there'd be one less memory to recall. If I'd only..."}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 45, "text": "Yes, so self-pitying.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's pitiful."}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 46, "text": "Did you think that when you sat down to write this that you would write the ultimate self-pitying song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's pitiful."}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 47, "text": "Oh, because you only had one arm?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, actually, I didn't sit down to write that one. The way that song happened, I was lying in bed with Shirley, and I woke up in the middle of the night wanting a cigarette. And her head was on my a"}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 48, "text": "Really? Is this really what happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, actually, I didn't sit down to write that one. The way that song happened, I was lying in bed with Shirley, and I woke up in the middle of the night wanting a cigarette. And her head was on my a"}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 49, "text": "That's really funny.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's true. That's a true story. So from the one arm, I went into the one eye, one ear, one leg."}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 50, "text": "And what was the fate of this song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 51, "text": "What do you feel you and Bob Dylan have most in common as friends or as songwriters or lovers of music?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2006 interview with Willie Nelson. He has a new album called \"Ride Me Back Home,\" and he's on tour this summer, with some dates featuring such other countr"}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 52, "text": "My guest is Willie Nelson. Here he is with Bob Dylan, singing \"Heartland,\" which they co-wrote.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think all those things. I enjoy his friendship because he's a great guy. He's a little shy and reserved, but, you know, so am I in a lot of ways, so I understand that. We've written a song tog"}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 53, "text": "Now, you have a very recent CD of songs by Cindy Walker, who's most famous for \"You Don't Know Me\" and \"Bubbles In My Beer.\" Did you know her well? She died just at about the time your CD was released.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) My American dream fell apart at the seams. You tell me what it means. You tell me what it means."}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 54, "text": "What did she have to say?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, and at the time we started doing this album, I'd - yeah, I had known her a long time. She was a very good friend. And I had talked to her, and we talked about doing an album of her songs for yea"}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 55, "text": "I'd like to play a song from that CD. And I'm going to give you your choice of one of her two most famous songs - \"You Don't Know Me\" or \"Bubbles In My Beer.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, she loved it. She called me up and told me, you know, a lot of great things about how she enjoyed it. And she really made me feel good about getting it done."}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 56, "text": "Good enough. And this is from Willie Nelson's CD of songs by Cindy Walker.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, \"Bubbles In My Beer\" is a great up-tempo song that I first learned from Bob Wills and the Texas Playboys. I had no idea who wrote the song when I started singing it. But I was a huge B"}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 57, "text": "You know, there's a couple of people who have been on FRESH AIR in the past year who've talked about how you changed their lives. And one of them was the songwriter and singer Billy Joe Shaver, who talked about how you helped him the day his son died. And what he said was he was told that his son died in a heroin overdose. But Shaver says that his son had fallen in with some bad companions, and he wasn't sure what really happened. And I want to play an excerpt of the tape here. I'd like you to hear this. And in this part, Shaver told me that the police took him to the hospital where his son was. And I'll let Billy Joe Shaver take the story from here. It's the story of the day of his son's death and how you helped him.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's return to Terry's interview from 2006 with country singer-songwriter Willie Nelson, who's been recording albums for more than 55 years. His latest, called \"Ride Me Back Home,\""}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 58, "text": "That was Billy Joe Shaver on FRESH AIR, the songwriter and singer. And my guest is Willie Nelson. And, Willie Nelson, when Billy Joe Shaver told that story, and he talked about how on the day his son died, you got together a band and basically forced him to perform that night. It made me wonder if part of the reason that you did that was because you thought that the stage was the only safe place for him that night. Because it sounds like he was so upset about his son's death that he might have, like, drunk himself into a bad place or done something, taken some action that he might have lived to regret.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know what happened. I really - it's still - to this day, I don't know what happened. And I tried to stay in there with him while they were checking to see if he's braindead. And the police ran"}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 59, "text": "Did the audience know what had happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I always find that on the stage is the safest place for me, no matter what I've been into. If I get up there for a couple hours, I can sometimes work it out. Most of the time, during the show, I"}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 60, "text": "I figure you must have known something about what Billy Joe Shaver was going through because you lost a son, too. Did you perform after that? Did the stage seem like the best place for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think most everyone there knew what had happened. And they were all happy to see Billy Joe there because they also knew that this was where he needed to be - out with friends, fans, rather than tryi"}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 61, "text": "I want to ask you about somebody else who you were very close to, and that's Johnny Cash. You knew him for years. You played together in The Highwaymen. How would you describe him as a friend?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Right after my son died, I had a gig booked in Branson, Mo. And it was on New Year's Eve, and he died on Christmas, so it would have been real easy for me to cancel and go off somewhere and, you"}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 62, "text": "You actually must collect jokes or something, 'cause, like, your new book, for instance, is filled with jokes - literally jokes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, a friend is a friend, you know? A friend is with you, good or bad, any time. So John and I have always been friends, and whenever - you know, he'd call me up several times when he was having a b"}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 63, "text": "Do you tell a lot of jokes on stage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I believe in jokes, you know? I think jokes are important and a necessity. You need to laugh at yourself, other people, life, death. You need to figure out a way to laugh at everything."}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 64, "text": "How come?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I don't tell any jokes on stage."}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 65, "text": "That's funny. Let me bring this back to your songwriting. When you write songs, are you sitting down and working in a craftsman-like way on the song, or are they just kind of coming to you while you're doing things?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think they came to hear me tell jokes."}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 66, "text": "And what about writing the music part, like the chords, for instance? Do you need a piano or a guitar when you do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I used to - when I was driving myself to different gigs around the country, I would do a lot of writing just driving down the highway. And I still think, you know, that that's the best way for me to w"}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 67, "text": "From what you said before, it sounds like - I mean, do you ever, like, actually write it down?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If there's a guitar or piano around, I would use it, but I can usually write it all in my head. And then I'll get a guitar when I find one and go over the lyrics and the melodies and probably wind up "}
{"id": "738490091", "date": "2019-07-05", "guest": "Willie Nelson", "title": "Willie Nelson: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 68, "text": "Willie Nelson, it's been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you very much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Maybe I should jot down this one because I don't want to forget it."}
{"id": "739854998", "date": "2019-07-09", "guest": "Ari Berman", "title": "Rulings On Gerrymandering And The Census Could Define The Political Future", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The Supreme Court handed down two decisions at the end of their session last month that could have a big impact on the outcome of elections in the States. The court ruled it had no power to intervene when states use partisan gerrymandering to draw maps for electoral districts, saying it was an issue for state legislatures and state courts. And in a related case, the court ruled that the Trump administration could not add a citizenship question to the census. Though the census questionnaires were scheduled to go to the printer on July 1, President Trump has been tweeting that the government is moving forward with the plan to include the question. Yesterday, Attorney General William Barr said he sees a way for the administration to include the question in the census, that action will be taken within the coming days. The outcome of the census plays a large part in determining electoral districts in the States. My guest today is Ari Berman, who's been writing about both of these issues, gerrymandering and the census, for Mother Jones magazine, where he covers voting rights. He's also a senior fellow at Type Media and the author of the book \"Give Us The Ballot: The Modern Struggle For Voting Rights In America.\" Ari Berman, welcome back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "739854998", "date": "2019-07-09", "guest": "Ari Berman", "title": "Rulings On Gerrymandering And The Census Could Define The Political Future", "question_index": 1, "text": "So how is the citizenship question related to political representation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having me back, Terry."}
{"id": "739854998", "date": "2019-07-09", "guest": "Ari Berman", "title": "Rulings On Gerrymandering And The Census Could Define The Political Future", "question_index": 2, "text": "President Trump said we need to know how many citizens there are in order to determine representation. But representation isn't based on citizens; it's based on the number of people.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the census is directly related to political representation, Terry, because the census forms the basis for how we draw political districts. It forms the basis for how many seats a state will get "}
{"id": "739854998", "date": "2019-07-09", "guest": "Ari Berman", "title": "Rulings On Gerrymandering And The Census Could Define The Political Future", "question_index": 3, "text": "So what did the Supreme Court rule about the case that the Trump administration was making about the importance of adding the citizenship question?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. And that's a really important point that you made, Terry, and I think it gets at the real reason the Trump administration wants this question about citizenship on the census. Because rig"}
{"id": "739854998", "date": "2019-07-09", "guest": "Ari Berman", "title": "Rulings On Gerrymandering And The Census Could Define The Political Future", "question_index": 4, "text": "So last week, President Trump ordered the Justice Department to keep pushing forward with the citizenship question. And so the president said there are several routes open - one is an executive order; one is going back to the court. Monday of this week, the Justice Department replaced the legal team that argued the case initially. Where are we now with the citizenship question?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", and I saw tweets saying Supreme Court strikes down citizenship question. So I was thinking, well, what actually happened here? And I had to read the opinion two or three times before I really unders"}
{"id": "739854998", "date": "2019-07-09", "guest": "Ari Berman", "title": "Rulings On Gerrymandering And The Census Could Define The Political Future", "question_index": 5, "text": "What do you think the likely next step would be if the Justice Department continues to pursue this case through the courts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "insane scenario where it seems like President Trump's Twitter feed is determining how the Justice Department is approaching a $10 to $15 billion operation that's constitutionally mandated every 10 yea"}
{"id": "739854998", "date": "2019-07-09", "guest": "Ari Berman", "title": "Rulings On Gerrymandering And The Census Could Define The Political Future", "question_index": 6, "text": "So last week, President Trump said he would consider an executive order to add the citizenship question to the census. Wouldn't that be defying the Supreme Court?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think they're going to try to appeal directly to the Supreme Court. They are going to try to come up with what they call a new rationale for adding this question because John Roberts said that"}
{"id": "739854998", "date": "2019-07-09", "guest": "Ari Berman", "title": "Rulings On Gerrymandering And The Census Could Define The Political Future", "question_index": 7, "text": "There hasn't been a citizenship question on the census since 1950. Why was it on the census before 1950 and why was it taken off after 1950?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "First off, does the president even have an authority to do the executive order on the census? My understanding is that Congress has the authority over the census, and they've delegated some responsibi"}
{"id": "739854998", "date": "2019-07-09", "guest": "Ari Berman", "title": "Rulings On Gerrymandering And The Census Could Define The Political Future", "question_index": 8, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Ari Berman. He's a senior reporter at Mother Jones magazine, covering voting rights. He's the author of \"Give Us The Ballot: The Modern Struggle For Voting Rights In America.\" And he's a fellow at Type Media. We're going to talk more about voting issues, including the Supreme Court decision that was handed down last month about gerrymandering. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was on before 1950 because it was just one of many pieces of demographic data that the Census Bureau collected. But I think, as the country began to change demographically, as there were more nonci"}
{"id": "739854998", "date": "2019-07-09", "guest": "Ari Berman", "title": "Rulings On Gerrymandering And The Census Could Define The Political Future", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, we're talking about voting issues and the two big Supreme Court decisions. My guest is Ari Berman. He's the author of the book \"Give Us The Ballot: The Modern Struggle For Voting Rights In America.\" And he covers voting rights for Mother Jones, where he's a senior reporter. So, you know, there's a person who is a big connection between the gerrymandering issue, which the Supreme Court just handed a ruling on, and the citizenship question, which the Supreme Court just handed down a ruling on, and that person is Thomas Hofeller. You describe him as the GOP's longtime redistricting mastermind. So after his death, his estranged daughter Stephanie found his hard drives, which she thought might have important information on it. So she turned it over to the North Carolina branch of Common Cause, which was challenging partisan gerrymandering. What are some of the things that we learned from these hard drives about his motivations for partisan gerrymandering and adding the citizenship question to the census?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was on before 1950 because it was just one of many pieces of demographic data that the Census Bureau collected. But I think, as the country began to change demographically, as there were more nonci"}
{"id": "739854998", "date": "2019-07-09", "guest": "Ari Berman", "title": "Rulings On Gerrymandering And The Census Could Define The Political Future", "question_index": 10, "text": "I'm not sure you'd know the answer to this, but I've been trying to understand why this issue is so important to President Trump. Now, I know immigration and people who are here without documentation is one of his key issues, so there's that, but he must also know that it figures into voting issues. So do you think that Trump is behaving kind of unilaterally? Do you think that there are people within the party - do you think there are people who are pressuring him to keep moving forward on this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This was a crazy turn of events. So there was a lawsuit in North Carolina challenging the state legislative maps in North Carolina in state court. And they got all of these files from Thomas Hofeller,"}
{"id": "739854998", "date": "2019-07-09", "guest": "Ari Berman", "title": "Rulings On Gerrymandering And The Census Could Define The Political Future", "question_index": 11, "text": "So just to be clear, if citizenship is used to determine political representation, that means that people who are living here legally, people who have green cards, people who are working and paying taxes, would have no representation, and the places where they live wouldn't get federal funds that count them as living there because certain federal funds are apportioned to states according to how many people are there. They wouldn't be counted.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. We know, for example, that people like Kris Kobach, the former secretary of state of Kansas who has been one of the leading architects in the Republican Party of cracking down on immigrati"}
{"id": "739854998", "date": "2019-07-09", "guest": "Ari Berman", "title": "Rulings On Gerrymandering And The Census Could Define The Political Future", "question_index": 12, "text": "My guest is Ari Berman. He covers voting rights for Mother Jones magazine. After a break, we'll talk about the Supreme Court's decision on gerrymandering and how it may affect the outcome of state elections and the future makeup of the House of Representatives. And Maureen Corrigan will review a new novel she describes as a story about racism, class and the limits of individual possibility. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's correct. It could have a very significant impact because I think what people are thinking of is that only undocumented people will be excluded from counting. And by the way, already districts a"}
{"id": "739854998", "date": "2019-07-09", "guest": "Ari Berman", "title": "Rulings On Gerrymandering And The Census Could Define The Political Future", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Ari Berman, who covers voting rights for Mother Jones magazine and is the author of the book \"Give Us The Ballot: The Modern Struggle For Voting Rights In America.\" Last week, the Supreme Court handed down two decisions that will have an impact on voting and the outcome of elections. The court ruled that the Trump administration could not add a citizenship question to the census, at least not based on the rationale the administration presented. But the administration is still pursuing adding the question. The other decision was about gerrymandering. Let's get to gerrymandering and last month's Supreme Court decision. I'm going to ask you to explain the decision and explain why you describe that decision as a doomsday scenario for voting rights.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's correct. It could have a very significant impact because I think what people are thinking of is that only undocumented people will be excluded from counting. And by the way, already districts a"}
{"id": "739854998", "date": "2019-07-09", "guest": "Ari Berman", "title": "Rulings On Gerrymandering And The Census Could Define The Political Future", "question_index": 14, "text": "What was the Supreme Court's rationale for saying, we can't intervene in a state's decision on partisan gerrymandering?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What the Supreme Court said in a 5-4 decision on two gerrymandering cases was that partisan gerrymandering could not be reviewed by the federal courts. And this was a huge setback for voting rights, a"}
{"id": "739854998", "date": "2019-07-09", "guest": "Ari Berman", "title": "Rulings On Gerrymandering And The Census Could Define The Political Future", "question_index": 15, "text": "So, basically, whichever party is in power in the state House gets to draw the districting boundaries every 10 years. And the cycle starts again in 2021, which is very soon. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The decision was written by Chief Justice John Roberts. And what Roberts said was that redistricting is an inherently political process. And he went back to the Founding Fathers. And he basically said"}
{"id": "739854998", "date": "2019-07-09", "guest": "Ari Berman", "title": "Rulings On Gerrymandering And The Census Could Define The Political Future", "question_index": 16, "text": "There's a lot at stake here. And it will be determined - what - it will determine the next 10 years politically.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "739854998", "date": "2019-07-09", "guest": "Ari Berman", "title": "Rulings On Gerrymandering And The Census Could Define The Political Future", "question_index": 17, "text": "Republicans actually had a strategy for taking over majority control of the states, in part, to be able to control redistricting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. And that's one reason why the Supreme Court case was so significant not just for what they ruled - that partisan gerrymandering can't be reviewed by the federal courts - but also the timing; "}
{"id": "739854998", "date": "2019-07-09", "guest": "Ari Berman", "title": "Rulings On Gerrymandering And The Census Could Define The Political Future", "question_index": 18, "text": "So now there's a group of Democrats trying to regain majorities in states so that they have some control over districting in 2021. And Obama's first attorney general, Eric Holder, has made ending partisan gerrymandering his issue. And you say, while everybody's focusing on 2020 and the presidential election, Eric Holder and his group are focusing on 2021 and on redistricting. So what is his goal?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They did. And they were very open about this. In March of 2010, Karl Rove published a op-ed in The Wall Street Journal. And he says, he who controls redistricting will control Congress, so he said it."}
{"id": "739854998", "date": "2019-07-09", "guest": "Ari Berman", "title": "Rulings On Gerrymandering And The Census Could Define The Political Future", "question_index": 19, "text": "Is Holder's goal to get Democrats to draw the district maps instead of Republicans, or is his goal to make that process truly nonpartisan?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "His goal, which I write about in the new issue of Mother Jones, is to try to unrig what he views as a rigged political system where Republicans have unified control - so both the governor's office and"}
{"id": "739854998", "date": "2019-07-09", "guest": "Ari Berman", "title": "Rulings On Gerrymandering And The Census Could Define The Political Future", "question_index": 20, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Ari Berman. He reports on voting rights for Mother Jones magazine, where he's a senior reporter, and he's the author of the book \"Give Us The Ballot: The Modern Struggle For Voting Rights In America.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He says his goal is to try to make the process more nonpartisan and more apolitical than it currently is. He told me, I don't want to replace a Republican gerrymander with a Democratic gerrymander. An"}
{"id": "739854998", "date": "2019-07-09", "guest": "Ari Berman", "title": "Rulings On Gerrymandering And The Census Could Define The Political Future", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Ari Berman. He's the author of the book \"Give Us The Ballot: The Modern Struggle For Voting Rights In America,\" and he reports on voting rights for Mother Jones magazine. Last year, voters in five states approved ballot initiatives to turn over redistricting to independent commissions. So how do some of those commissions look as an alternative to partisan gerrymandering?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He says his goal is to try to make the process more nonpartisan and more apolitical than it currently is. He told me, I don't want to replace a Republican gerrymander with a Democratic gerrymander. An"}
{"id": "739854998", "date": "2019-07-09", "guest": "Ari Berman", "title": "Rulings On Gerrymandering And The Census Could Define The Political Future", "question_index": 22, "text": "There's another big voting issue that you've been following, and this pertains to Florida. Last year, Florida voters approved a ballot initiative overturning the state's law saying that convicted felons could never vote again. And so overturning that would have restored the vote to 1.4 million Floridians, but the Republicans countered that. What did they do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It depends on the state, and it depends on the process. But I think, generally speaking, these commissions produce maps that on the whole are thought to be fair and more representative of the state as"}
{"id": "739854998", "date": "2019-07-09", "guest": "Ari Berman", "title": "Rulings On Gerrymandering And The Census Could Define The Political Future", "question_index": 23, "text": "And it's also an enormous number of people who could tip the balance for the state in the next presidential election.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What Republicans in the Florida legislature did is they passed a law this year, which was just signed by the governor, was to require all of those people with past felony convictions that were set to "}
{"id": "739854998", "date": "2019-07-09", "guest": "Ari Berman", "title": "Rulings On Gerrymandering And The Census Could Define The Political Future", "question_index": 24, "text": "Ari Berman, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. You just look at the 2018 election in Florida. The Senate race in Florida was decided by 10,000 votes. The governor's race in Florida was decided by 30,000 votes. In that same election, 1."}
{"id": "739854998", "date": "2019-07-09", "guest": "Ari Berman", "title": "Rulings On Gerrymandering And The Census Could Define The Political Future", "question_index": 25, "text": "Ari Berman covers voting rights for Mother Jones magazine and is the author of the book \"Give Us The Ballot: The Modern Struggle For Voting Rights In America.\" After we take a short break, Maureen Corrigan will review a new novel partly inspired by the author's family's encounter with violent racial hatred. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me back, Terry."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 1, "text": "If you know the show \"Fiddler On The Roof,\" this music will sound familiar. But these lyrics won't.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 2, "text": "That's music from the Yiddish production of \"Fiddler On The Roof,\" which is now playing off-Broadway. The cast recording will be released later this summer, but we have an advance copy to play for you. My guests are Steven Skybell, who stars as Tevye, and Joel Grey, who directed this production. Grey is most famous for starring as the emcee in the original Broadway cast of \"Cabaret\" and in the film adaptation. \"Fiddler On The Roof\" is one of the most popular shows in Broadway history and has been performed around the world. It's set in 1905 in a shtetl in Eastern Europe. Shtetl is the Yiddish word for small town or village. At the time \"Fiddler\" takes place, many Jews in the Russian Empire were confined to living in the shtetls. Tevya is a dairyman who struggles to support his wife and five daughters. Three of his daughters are old enough to marry, and Tevye and his wife are expecting to follow the tradition of arranged marriages. But the daughters want to marry for love. The show is about the generational conflict between following religious and cultural traditions and adapting to a world that is rapidly changing. Some of the change confronting the family is tragic. The pogroms, Russian attacks on the Jews in the shtetls, have gotten worse, and the Russian czar has been ordering the expulsion of Jews in many villages. This revival of \"Fiddler\" is a production of the National Yiddish Theater Folksbiene, which is the longest continuously producing Yiddish theater company in the world. Yiddish used to be the primary language spoken by Jews in Central and Eastern Europe. \"Fiddler On The Roof\" is based on stories that were written in Yiddish by Sholem Aleichem. Joel Grey, Steven Skybell, welcome to FRESH AIR, and congratulations on this production. It is really, really wonderful. So, Joel, what's the backstory of the Yiddish version of \"Fiddler On The Roof\" that you're using? Who wrote it? Why did they write it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing in Yiddish)."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 3, "text": "And Hebrew became the language instead of Yiddish.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Shraga Friedman was an actor and director, and he translated it for himself to play in Israel after it was a big hit on Broadway. And that Yiddish version did not go very well because Israelis, they t"}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 4, "text": "Your father, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And Hebrew was the language that they adopted. And then he did it in Hebrew, and it was a success. And as far as I know, he interpolated certain Yiddishisms into Sheldon Harnick and Joe Stein's work, "}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 5, "text": "The songs aren't, like, a direct translation of the Sheldon Harnick lyrics. For example, one of the most famous songs from the show is \"If I Were A Rich Man,\" but the Yiddish version in this production that you're doing is \u201cVen Ikh Bin A Rotshild,\" which is \"If I Were A Rothschild.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not exactly classical Yiddish. I said - but something inside of me said, you have to do this. It's an affair of the heart."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 6, "text": "And the Rothschilds were, of course, a very, very wealthy Jewish family - like, internationally famous.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 7, "text": "In France. From France, yes. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In France."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 8, "text": "...Steven, how did \"If I Were A Rich Man\" become \"If I Were A Rothschild?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 9, "text": "Now, before we hear you singing it, Steven Skybell, from the forthcoming cast recording, I want to play you a clip of my interview with Sheldon Harnick and Jerry Bock from 2004.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And a goal for any Jew would - to be a Rothschild - it just puts Tevye in a context that to me is very deep. It's a subtle change, and it's a delightful change. And, you know, thankfully Sheldon"}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 10, "text": "And I was asking Harnick about, in the song, the kind of chanting part, the daidle-deedle (ph) part?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ooh."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 11, "text": "I was asking him about that and who came up with that, whether he wrote those lyrics, wrote those phonetically down or whether that was a Zero Mostel thing. So we're going to hear a little bit of Zero Mostel, and then we're going to hear that - what Sheldon Harnick had to say.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 12, "text": "So this is from 2004.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 13, "text": "Sheldon Harnick, the yidle-deedle-digga-digga-do (ph) part", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing, as Tevye) If I were a rich man - ya-ha, deedle, deedle, deedle, beeble, beeble, bubble, bum (ph)."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 14, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing, as Tevye) If I were a rich man - ya-ha, deedle, deedle, deedle, beeble, beeble, bubble, bum (ph)."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 15, "text": "...Did you actually write out the syllables that you wanted Zero Mostel to sing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 16, "text": "OK. So that was Sheldon Harnick and Jerry Bock in 2004. Steven Skybell, when you sing the song, what's your approach to doing that chanting part?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Authentic, yeah."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's exactly that. I mean, I never have heard that, but that is always what I heard - was a sort of, you know, davening. The only thing I'll add to that - and I stole this from Katrina Lenk, who"}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 18, "text": "All right. So let's hear Steven Skybell singing \"Ven Ikh Bin A Rothschild\" - \"If I Were A Rich Man.\" This is sung in Yiddish from the Yiddish production that's now underway in New York of \"Fiddler On The Roof.\" And the cast recording will be coming out in the next few weeks. Here we go.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Thing makes him kind of go off-text, in a way, with laughter, as well as this sort of davening. So that is also something that I like to explore with it - is that because I'm - he's expressing hims"}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 19, "text": "That's Steven Skybell from the forthcoming cast recording of the Yiddish production of \"Fiddler On The Roof,\" which is currently playing in New York. Also with us is Joel Grey, who directed this production. So Steven, that sounded great. And you know, one of the things I love about your singing in this is that even though I understand some of the words that you're singing 'cause my grandparents spoke Yiddish, but I don't - you know, I don't understand the meaning of a lot of them. But I love your pronunciation of all the words. Like, you just - you pronounce everything so clearly. It just has a beauty in and of itself.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing in Yiddish)."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 20, "text": "And I think that's something that great people in theater can do - is to just really wrap their tongue around all the syllables, whether they're singing or talking.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 21, "text": "Well, well done. If you're just joining us, my guests are Joel Grey, who directed the Yiddish production of \"Fiddler On The Roof\" that's now playing in New York, and Steven Skybell, who stars in it as Tevye. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, I mean, I will say two things about that. One is that our coaches at the Folksbiene were intent that even if people didn't understand the Yiddish, they should certainly be able to apprehen"}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, we're talking about the Yiddish production of \"Fiddler On The Roof\" that's currently playing in New York. A cast recording is forthcoming. And with me is Joel Grey, who directed this production. And Joel Grey is most famous for starring in the original Broadway and movie productions of \"Cabaret.\" And Steven Skybell is with us, too. He stars as Tevye in the Yiddish production of \"Fiddler On The Roof.\" Joel Grey, when you took on this job of directing the Yiddish production of \"Fiddler On The Roof,\" how did you want to interpret it differently than you'd previously seen it interpreted?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, I mean, I will say two things about that. One is that our coaches at the Folksbiene were intent that even if people didn't understand the Yiddish, they should certainly be able to apprehen"}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 23, "text": "So Joel, what did you see and hear in Steven Skybell that led you to cast him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a script that had no real form, except for these scenes which were there in Yiddish, and the songs were there in Yiddish, but there was no direction. There were no - they go into, and they - th"}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 24, "text": "Since Zero Mostel originated the role on stage, a lot of people just always assume that Tevye has to be somebody who's big, like, physically big...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the thing of it was that you knew in that moment that he came in and sang \"If I Were A Rich Man\" in Yiddish that there was no one else to be considered - done, done, done. And from there on, he "}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 25, "text": "...Like, stocky.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Yeah."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 26, "text": "But he was a big man, and there was a lot of shtick - can I say? - in...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 27, "text": "...His performance. Yeah. And so I think, Steven, that your characterization is really different. First of all, you're thin, so you physically look different than he does. And I think you bring a lot of spine to the role, that it's - it - he has a certain strength. And I didn't see the original cast production. I've heard the recording a lot. So I might be wrong in my characterization of Zero Mostel's performance. But are there things that you thought you really wanted to do differently than what you'd seen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, he was a comedian."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 28, "text": "Give me an example.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I know - I have humor. And I never really saw the role of Tevye as a buffoon, you know? And so it's not that I intentionally was trying to forge a new Tevye at all. But it was Joel Grey who's - who "}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 29, "text": "Who's been imprisoned there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "An example for that is, you know, I think maybe the Zero Mostel reaction when his daughter is - says, we're going - I'm going to Siberia to join my revolutionary husband - and even..."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 30, "text": "My guests are Joel Grey, who directed the off-Broadway production of the Yiddish \"Fiddler On The Roof,\" and Steven Skybell, who stars as Tevye. We'll talk more and hear more music from the forthcoming cast recording after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Who's been imprisoned there. And I do even think on the original cast album, Mostel is sort of - geschrei is, Siberia - Siberia. Like, the - he can't imagine it. And Joel, I mean - and I'm not - an ac"}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 31, "text": "UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character, singing in Yiddish). UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character, singing in Yiddish). UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character)", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Who's been imprisoned there. And I do even think on the original cast album, Mostel is sort of - geschrei is, Siberia - Siberia. Like, the - he can't imagine it. And Joel, I mean - and I'm not - an ac"}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 32, "text": ". UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character, singing in Yiddish). UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character, singing in Yiddish). UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character, singing in Yiddish). UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1 AND UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As characters, singing in Yiddish).", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Who's been imprisoned there. And I do even think on the original cast album, Mostel is sort of - geschrei is, Siberia - Siberia. Like, the - he can't imagine it. And Joel, I mean - and I'm not - an ac"}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 33, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're talking about the current off-Broadway production of \"Fiddler On The Roof\" performed in Yiddish with English and Russian subtitles. My guests are Joel Grey, who directed the show, and Steven Skybell, who stars as Tevye. This production has won several awards, including the 2019 Drama Desk Award for best musical revival. Skybell won the 2019 Lucille Lortel Award for best lead actor in a musical. The original Broadway production of \"Fiddler On The Roof\" opened in 1964. The music was written by Sheldon Harnick and Jerry Bock, with a book by Joseph Stein. I want to hear another song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Who's been imprisoned there. And I do even think on the original cast album, Mostel is sort of - geschrei is, Siberia - Siberia. Like, the - he can't imagine it. And Joel, I mean - and I'm not - an ac"}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 34, "text": "And again, this is going to be from the forthcoming cast recording of the Yiddish production of \"Fiddler On The Roof.\" And we're going to hear you, Steven Skybell, again, singing one of the famous songs from the show, \"L'Chaim\" (ph). And I know when I interviewed Sheldon Harnick about writing the lyrics for this show, he said, you know, the characters in this would have been speaking Yiddish because that's the language that Sholem Aleichem wrote in. But there's only two Yiddish words in the lyrics that Sheldon Harnick wrote. One is mazel tov, as in...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 35, "text": "...A blessing on your head, mazel tov, mazel tov.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 36, "text": "And mazel tov means congratulations. And the other is l'chaim, which is one of the most - titles of one of most famous songs in the show, which means to life, as the lyric tells you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 37, "text": "To life, to life, l'chaim. So before we hear this, do you want to say anything about doing the song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 38, "text": "So let's hear Steven Skybell from the forthcoming cast recording of the Yiddish \"Fiddler On The Roof.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, just that it is a - it's a moment of pure joy in this story, which sometimes has darker corners. And that's an aspect of it that I really relish every night, is that it is - it's alcohol"}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 39, "text": "So Steven Skybell and Bruce Sabath, who plays Lazar Wolf from the forthcoming Yiddish version of \"Fiddler On The Roof\" - any lyric changes you want to point out to us in their translation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Lazar Wolf, speaking Yiddish)."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 40, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it's just - let it be to life is what it's saying, as opposed to to life, to life, to life. So - because then it would really be l'chaim, l'chaim, l'chaim, l'chaim, l'chaim, l'chaim. And..."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 41, "text": "I'm glad you mentioned the chuh (ph) because I think some people...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nobody wants that."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 42, "text": "...Have trouble saying chuh, and you can't...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 43, "text": "...Speak Yiddish without a lot of chuh in it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 44, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's correct."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 45, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no, but they were - they - I will say, when I studied with - and her name is Khane-Faygl Turtletaub."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 46, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And she's the Northwestern Yiddish teacher who - I went to her home. She was like, chuh, chuh, chuh. That..."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 47, "text": "So Joel Grey, when you were during the auditions, did you have to make sure that the people auditioning could do a good chuh?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It actually is an identifying aspect of what Yiddish is, and you don't want to be afraid of it. And even when they were coaching us for \"Fiddler,\" they just said, more of that, more of that, because i"}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 48, "text": "All right. So the story of \"Fiddler On The Roof\" really resonates today because it's a story about having to flee and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know a chuh when I hear it."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 49, "text": "...Going to other places because different characters - some characters go to America. One's setting off for Israel. Another's going, I think, to Warsaw. And no one really knows what they're in store for. We know some of them are likely to die in the Holocaust. Of course, they don't know that. And now, when immigration is such a contentious issue in the U.S. and when so many people from different countries are trying to come here, fleeing from death threats and gangs and hunger, violence, starvation, you know, any number of reasons trying to come here...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 50, "text": "So it has some, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not exactly different from what it was then..."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 51, "text": "It has so much resonance now. And it's not - you know, it's a story about Jewish people, but so many Americans who are immigrants come from their version of that story. So I'd like you each to say a few words about why the story feels relevant to you living today in the climate that we're in.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...In terms of running away."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 52, "text": "Joel Grey, to you, what this story means to you now living in America in 2019.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'll start by saying - I don't know if you're aware - but just recently, we had World Refugee Day. And we actually - the entire theater was filled not with paying audience, but with people who i"}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 53, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guests are Joel Grey, who directed the current Yiddish production of \"Fiddler On The Roof,\" and Steven Skybell, who stars in it as Tevye. We'll be back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Seeing the show and feeling the character's loss and the sadness and pluck and spirit every night and then I come home and I turn on the television and I see these migrants and these kids in cages and"}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 54, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, we're talking about the ongoing Yiddish production of \"Fiddler On The Roof\" in New York. My guests are Joel Grey, who directed it. He also, as you know, is most famous for starring in the original Broadway production and the movie of \"Cabaret.\" And also with us is Steven Skybell, who stars in this production as Tevye. And there's a cast recording that will be released soon. I'd like to hear a little bit about your family stories to the extent that you know it of how and when they came to the United States.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Seeing the show and feeling the character's loss and the sadness and pluck and spirit every night and then I come home and I turn on the television and I see these migrants and these kids in cages and"}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 55, "text": "And then your father, Mickey Katz, he spoke Yiddish and English, and he was a performer. He sang with Spike Jones' band, and then he started his own band and sang song parodies that were part English, part Yiddish. And you sang with him...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She said, there was a big snow. That's how she remembered, and she came by herself on a boat. You think, how hard was that? How scary? And then they found each other in - she came to be with her cousi"}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 56, "text": "That was the theme for the \"Davy Crockett\" TV show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Born in the wilds of Delancey Street, home of gefilte fish and kosher meat, handy with a knife (singing in Yiddish) he flicked him a chicken and he was only 3. Duvid, Duvid Crockett... So he"}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 57, "text": "But he did the Yiddish parody version.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Born in the wilds of Delancey Street, home of gefilte fish and kosher meat, handy with a knife (singing in Yiddish) he flicked him a chicken and he was only 3. Duvid, Duvid Crockett... So he"}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 58, "text": "So your father knew Yiddish, and you sang with him, so you could sing Yiddish, but apparently you didn't necessarily know what the words meant.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 59, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, here I am."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 60, "text": "So, Steven, what do you know about how your family came to the U.S. and where did they come from?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I'm in the middle of it."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 61, "text": "Into the Tsarist army.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yes. My father's father came from a small town in northeast Poland called Suwalki. And it was before the First World War. It was the - all of his brothers came over one at a time to avoid conscr"}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 62, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. And so my grandfather came over when he was 16. And, again, it's like can you - I cannot even imagine getting on a boat when you're 16 and going, you know - maybe he thought it was a bit"}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 63, "text": "One of the most famous songs from \"Fiddler On The Roof\" is \"Sunrise, Sunset,\" which is a song that has been sung at countless Jewish weddings for generations. And I told Sheldon Harnick this - I really so strongly disliked the song", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mother's side of the family was a little more city dwelling from Warsaw, Poland. And so they came to Chicago. And I don't know much more about that except I do know that some of my grandfather - my"}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 64, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mother's side of the family was a little more city dwelling from Warsaw, Poland. And so they came to Chicago. And I don't know much more about that except I do know that some of my grandfather - my"}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 65, "text": "...For so many years because my parents were among the parents who played the cast album over and over and over, and there were songs that just sounded so, like, schmaltzy to me. And then when I started to really understand more about music and about lyric-writing and about Bock and Harnick, the composers of the score, and how great and varied their shows were.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 66, "text": "Yeah. Yeah - and meaningful, I realized, like, what a beautiful song that is. And there's, like, jazz versions of the song, you know, like, instrumental jazz versions.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Deep."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 67, "text": "So I want to play the Yiddish version from the show. And again, Steven, I'm going to ask you for what you thought about when you were recording this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 68, "text": "Steven, I'm going to ask you to sing a few of the lines in English for people who don't know the English version of the song, and then we'll hear you in Yiddish.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 69, "text": "Beautiful. Let's hear the Yiddish version. And the actress who plays your wife in it is singing with you, and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Is this the little girl I carried? Is this the little boy at play? I don't remember growing older. When did they?"}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 70, "text": "Yeah. So here we go.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Jennifer Babiak."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 71, "text": "That was beautiful. Joel Grey, did you give any direction for how you wanted that song to be sung?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing in Yiddish)."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 72, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guests are Joel Grey, who directed the Yiddish production of \"Fiddler On The Roof\" that's now playing in New York, and Steven Skybell, who stars in it as Tevye. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes, I wanted it to be spoken, but musically. I wanted it to be about the text, about what they're thinking, what they're feeling in this moment of great joy and yet deep loss."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 73, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, we're talking about the Yiddish production of \"Fiddler On The Roof\" that's currently playing in New York. A cast recording is forthcoming. And with me is Joel Grey, who directed this production, and Joel Grey is most famous for starring in the original Broadway and movie productions of \"Cabaret.\" And Steven Skybell is with us, too. He stars as Tevye in the Yiddish production of \"Fiddler On The Roof.\" Steven, has doing the show affected your feelings about your own family history or your interest in your own family history?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes, I wanted it to be spoken, but musically. I wanted it to be about the text, about what they're thinking, what they're feeling in this moment of great joy and yet deep loss."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 74, "text": "Let's end with one more song. Let's end with \"Sabbath Prayer\" from the Yiddish production of \"Fiddler On The Roof.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I always have had an interest in my family's history. It's certainly - I feel I draw upon my family's - and their history so strongly in portraying Tevye. And I have, in my dressing room, pictures of "}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 75, "text": "When you hear this? Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I always cry in the theater when this happens."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 76, "text": "Why do you cry?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 77, "text": "And this whole show is about, like, the conflict between tradition and living in the moment because the moment is changing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. It's just - there's just something so deep and simple with these - you know, small family group of seven or eight people doing the exact right thing - the traditional Sabbath prayer."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 78, "text": "Steven, this is a duet. Who are you singing with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 79, "text": "So here's \"Sabbath Prayer.\" Thank you both so much, and congratulations on the show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My wife called Jennifer Babiak."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 80, "text": "Joel Grey directed the off-Broadway production of \"Fiddler On The Roof,\" performed in Yiddish. Steven Skybell stars as Tevye. The cast recording will be released later this summer. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be Caitlin Dickerson, national immigration reporter for The New York Times. She's reported on the immigrant children being held in squalid conditions at a Border Patrol station in Clint, Texas, conditions which have provoked public outrage and condemnation from federal judges. She'll talk about the crisis at the border and prospects for change. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Tevye, singing in Yiddish)."}
{"id": "739902587", "date": "2019-07-10", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' Is A 'Dream Come True' For Lead Actor", "question_index": 81, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our associate producer for digital media as Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Tevye, singing in Yiddish)."}
{"id": "741094252", "date": "2019-07-12", "guest": "Jim Bouton", "title": "Remembering Major League Pitcher Jim Bouton, Author Of 'Ball Four'", "question_index": 0, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the most controversial story in the book was I told about the time Mickey Mantle hit a home run with a hangover. And it wasn't really even so much as a put-down of Mickey Mantle as it was a st"}
{"id": "741094252", "date": "2019-07-12", "guest": "Jim Bouton", "title": "Remembering Major League Pitcher Jim Bouton, Author Of 'Ball Four'", "question_index": 1, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's a rule in baseball that you must touch the bases in order. Fortunately, he heads off in the right direction. The minute he hits first base, the entire dugout goes, make a left - goes around, t"}
{"id": "741094252", "date": "2019-07-12", "guest": "Jim Bouton", "title": "Remembering Major League Pitcher Jim Bouton, Author Of 'Ball Four'", "question_index": 2, "text": "Pitching careers are subject to more problems than other careers are, I think, because your arm is so vulnerable. And your career depends on your arm, and it's what you're abusing all the time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So if this destroys America's illusions about baseball or Mickey Mantle, then I don't know what you do with all the literature that's come out since then where each player tries to top the next in ter"}
{"id": "741094252", "date": "2019-07-12", "guest": "Jim Bouton", "title": "Remembering Major League Pitcher Jim Bouton, Author Of 'Ball Four'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Did you have to change your pitching style because of injuries you were getting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. And pitching is not a natural motion. Throwing a ball as hard as you can 120 times every four days is not natural."}
{"id": "741094252", "date": "2019-07-12", "guest": "Jim Bouton", "title": "Remembering Major League Pitcher Jim Bouton, Author Of 'Ball Four'", "question_index": 4, "text": "How hard are knuckleballs to hit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had to change my pitching style when I wasn't able to throw hard anymore. See, what happened was I threw very hard when I first came up. I was a overhand fastball pitcher. And then when I hurt"}
{"id": "741094252", "date": "2019-07-12", "guest": "Jim Bouton", "title": "Remembering Major League Pitcher Jim Bouton, Author Of 'Ball Four'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Say it was a full count, and there were a couple of men on base. What would you throw? Would you throw a knuckleball, knowing that if you made one more - one wrong move, it might be a home run 'cause...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They're almost impossible to hit when you throw a good one. The difficulty is throwing a good one. When you don't throw a good one, anybody can hit them. That's the problem with a knuckleball. Nobody "}
{"id": "741094252", "date": "2019-07-12", "guest": "Jim Bouton", "title": "Remembering Major League Pitcher Jim Bouton, Author Of 'Ball Four'", "question_index": 6, "text": "...It's easier to hit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "741094252", "date": "2019-07-12", "guest": "Jim Bouton", "title": "Remembering Major League Pitcher Jim Bouton, Author Of 'Ball Four'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Did you have any gestures that you had to do before you threw a pitch and, like, rub your hand on your side three times or", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would throw a knuckleball. I would throw a knuckleball because my feeling is I would rather live and die with my best pitch than take a chance with something that wasn't my best."}
{"id": "741094252", "date": "2019-07-12", "guest": "Jim Bouton", "title": "Remembering Major League Pitcher Jim Bouton, Author Of 'Ball Four'", "question_index": 8, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would throw a knuckleball. I would throw a knuckleball because my feeling is I would rather live and die with my best pitch than take a chance with something that wasn't my best."}
{"id": "741094252", "date": "2019-07-12", "guest": "Jim Bouton", "title": "Remembering Major League Pitcher Jim Bouton, Author Of 'Ball Four'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Why do pitchers like to chew when they're on the mound?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nothing that was superstitious. Sure, I went through the same sort of little rituals before I threw the ball because it's important to do that. And athletes need to do that and many performers need to"}
{"id": "741094252", "date": "2019-07-12", "guest": "Jim Bouton", "title": "Remembering Major League Pitcher Jim Bouton, Author Of 'Ball Four'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Jim Bouton, I want to thank you very much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Part of it is because of the nervousness and the tension. And it's sort of - chewing relieves that. But the spitting part is different, OK? Spitting - and also all this crotch grabbing and spitting ba"}
{"id": "741104068", "date": "2019-07-12", "guest": "Rip Torn", "title": "Remembering 'Larry Sanders Show' Actor Rip Torn", "question_index": 0, "text": "How has \"The Garry Sanders Show\" (ph) changed your career, if at all? I mean, being a regular on a TV series, especially something that's developed such a loyal following, is - it's a different kind of situation than having movies. It's a recurring character. More people see TV, probably.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I based it on the kind of brilliant quickness that Fred De Cordova has, the kind of hands-on operation that he had that he's there that - he was totally loyal to Mr. Carson. And since a great producer"}
{"id": "741104068", "date": "2019-07-12", "guest": "Rip Torn", "title": "Remembering 'Larry Sanders Show' Actor Rip Torn", "question_index": 1, "text": "It's steady work - that, too. Right, right, right. So you're liking it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a steady work."}
{"id": "741104068", "date": "2019-07-12", "guest": "Rip Torn", "title": "Remembering 'Larry Sanders Show' Actor Rip Torn", "question_index": 2, "text": "Good.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I love it."}
{"id": "741104068", "date": "2019-07-12", "guest": "Rip Torn", "title": "Remembering 'Larry Sanders Show' Actor Rip Torn", "question_index": 3, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Want me to say more? I mean..."}
{"id": "741104068", "date": "2019-07-12", "guest": "Rip Torn", "title": "Remembering 'Larry Sanders Show' Actor Rip Torn", "question_index": 4, "text": "When there is a guest star on the show playing themselves doing a guest shot on \"The Larry Sanders Show\"...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...We really have a very good - I was talking to John Siffrin (ph), who's a producer of the Shandling show. And my mother, Thelma Torn, from Texas and my sister Pat Alexander - my mother died between "}
{"id": "741104068", "date": "2019-07-12", "guest": "Rip Torn", "title": "Remembering 'Larry Sanders Show' Actor Rip Torn", "question_index": 5, "text": "...Are they always willing to have fun with themselves? In other words, are they always willing to be the butt of a joke or to make fun of their popular image? Or do you sometimes have to encourage people to just, like, relax?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "741104068", "date": "2019-07-12", "guest": "Rip Torn", "title": "Remembering 'Larry Sanders Show' Actor Rip Torn", "question_index": 6, "text": "Let me ask you the question that I'm sure you've been asked more than any other question in your life, and that is the story of how you went from Elmore Torn to Rip Torn.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". That's what I liked about live television, you know? So - but we have a script, and they usually have a wonderful time. And everybody wants to do the show - I mean, Robin Williams, Billy Crystal, Bu"}
{"id": "741104068", "date": "2019-07-12", "guest": "Rip Torn", "title": "Remembering 'Larry Sanders Show' Actor Rip Torn", "question_index": 7, "text": "When did you get it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's just very simple. It's like baseball players that were named Woods or called Piney or - it's just a nickname."}
{"id": "741104068", "date": "2019-07-12", "guest": "Rip Torn", "title": "Remembering 'Larry Sanders Show' Actor Rip Torn", "question_index": 8, "text": "So your father was nicknamed Rip, or that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I think when I was born, my dad said that the doctor says, you know, since my father's name was Rip, I guess - maybe the guy raised dogs or something - he says, you know, little Rip out of big Rip"}
{"id": "741104068", "date": "2019-07-12", "guest": "Rip Torn", "title": "Remembering 'Larry Sanders Show' Actor Rip Torn", "question_index": 9, "text": "...Was his birth name?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was nicknamed."}
{"id": "741104068", "date": "2019-07-12", "guest": "Rip Torn", "title": "Remembering 'Larry Sanders Show' Actor Rip Torn", "question_index": 10, "text": "Now, I read that when you first started off in television that some of the programs insisted that you changed your name from Rip Torn back to Elmore or to anything...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was - his first name, like me, was Elmore. And he - we had different middle names. And I've got an Uncle Roland down in Houston, Texas. He's the senior Rip in the family now. And I have a cousin Sa"}
{"id": "741104068", "date": "2019-07-12", "guest": "Rip Torn", "title": "Remembering 'Larry Sanders Show' Actor Rip Torn", "question_index": 11, "text": "...Anything other than Rip.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they didn't want Elmore."}
{"id": "741104068", "date": "2019-07-12", "guest": "Rip Torn", "title": "Remembering 'Larry Sanders Show' Actor Rip Torn", "question_index": 12, "text": "Mmm hmm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They said Elmore sounds like a hick, and..."}
{"id": "741104068", "date": "2019-07-12", "guest": "Rip Torn", "title": "Remembering 'Larry Sanders Show' Actor Rip Torn", "question_index": 13, "text": "So when you were getting started in television, some programs didn't want you to use the name Rip Torn because they thought it sounded like you were a comic and not a serious actor.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And Rip sounds like a comedian."}
{"id": "741104068", "date": "2019-07-12", "guest": "Rip Torn", "title": "Remembering 'Larry Sanders Show' Actor Rip Torn", "question_index": 14, "text": "What'd you think of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, sure."}
{"id": "741104068", "date": "2019-07-12", "guest": "Rip Torn", "title": "Remembering 'Larry Sanders Show' Actor Rip Torn", "question_index": 15, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I never really worried about that. You know, I think it was a - when I was signed with the MCA - before they became Universal, they had a talent agency - and the woman agent I had, Monique James, says"}
{"id": "741104068", "date": "2019-07-12", "guest": "Rip Torn", "title": "Remembering 'Larry Sanders Show' Actor Rip Torn", "question_index": 16, "text": "Now, you grew up in Texas. You originally went to college as an agriculture major.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the first time I played on Broadway, the great director Elia Kazan said to me - says, look. You know, Elmore is corny. You know, Rip sounds like a comedian. He says, we got to change the name. I sa"}
{"id": "741104068", "date": "2019-07-12", "guest": "Rip Torn", "title": "Remembering 'Larry Sanders Show' Actor Rip Torn", "question_index": 17, "text": "What did your family say when you switched from what was basically the family tradition - agriculture, ranching - from that to acting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "741104068", "date": "2019-07-12", "guest": "Rip Torn", "title": "Remembering 'Larry Sanders Show' Actor Rip Torn", "question_index": 18, "text": "Good advice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they didn't like it. And my dad, who was a very remarkable man - Elmore Torn - he sat me down on the back porch. I just - I'd gotten out of the Army, and I was more mature than a lot of people a"}
{"id": "741104068", "date": "2019-07-12", "guest": "Rip Torn", "title": "Remembering 'Larry Sanders Show' Actor Rip Torn", "question_index": 19, "text": ". Were they proud of you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was biblical. And I tell this story - but my mom came in (unintelligible) my lap. She said - started crying. She said, oh, son. Just promise me one thing. If you go to New York to be an actor"}
{"id": "741104068", "date": "2019-07-12", "guest": "Rip Torn", "title": "Remembering 'Larry Sanders Show' Actor Rip Torn", "question_index": 20, "text": "When your father encouraged you to go, were you surprised that he was giving you that advice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "741104068", "date": "2019-07-12", "guest": "Rip Torn", "title": "Remembering 'Larry Sanders Show' Actor Rip Torn", "question_index": 21, "text": "Because you had his backing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was stunned. I didn't - it didn't produce in me an emotional reaction like it does if - when I tell that story. What it produced in me was a great feeling of exhilaration and strength. And I felt th"}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Song parodies about President Trump and members of his administration - that's what my guest Randy Rainbow has become famous for. He borrows the melodies of show tunes and pop hits and writes original lyrics. He took the melody of the Mary Poppins song \"Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious\" and turned it into a Trump song titled \"Super-Callous Fragile-Egocentric Braggadocious.\" Rainbow performs each song within a video that typically also includes him interviewing Trump, a trick Rainbow accomplishes by re-editing videos of Trump interviews and inserting himself asking the questions and reacting to the answers. These YouTube videos go viral, and that's a tribute to Rainbow's clever lyrics, his great singing voice and hilarious reaction shots. Yesterday, right after we recorded our interview, his YouTube series of satirical songs was nominated for an Emmy for outstanding short-form variety series. Let's start with one of his songs that borrows the melody from \"My Favorite Things.\" This is \"Trump's Favorite Things!,\" recorded last December when special counsel Robert Mueller was about to file memos about Michael Flynn, Michael Cohen and Paul Manafort. This starts with Randy Rainbow interviewing President Trump.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 1, "text": "Randy Rainbow, welcome to FRESH AIR. I think you are so funny and so much fun to watch. Thank you for being on our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Long-winded tweets with no spell check corrections..."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 2, "text": "So you do your videos in your home alone. You direct yourself. How many - I love your reaction shots because you have this, like, incredibly expressive face and really big eyes. And your reaction shots to what, you know, Trump is saying are always, like, hilarious. How do you direct yourself, and how many takes do you do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. It's my honor to be with you."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 3, "text": "And it sounds like - you know, so you do this, like, alone in your apartment.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I've kind of worked it down to about four or five takes because I could stand there all day. And, you know, as a director, I'm quite hard on myself. The reaction shots are something that I've le"}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 4, "text": "I feel really sorry for you", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a very lonely existence, Terry."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a very lonely existence, Terry."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 6, "text": "But it sounds like when you were a kid, you did similar stuff. You spent a lot of time alone in your bedroom making videos. What kind of videos did you make?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for inviting me out of my home. It doesn't happen often."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, God. They were real classics, real gems."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I - you know, I would have, like, my little figurines, my toy soldiers and things - well, I say soldiers, but, of course, I mean Barbies."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 9, "text": "So we'll get back to theater camp.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I would do, you know, sort of horrible DIY kind of stop motion animation. It was really bad. And then I - you know, I had a bunch of friends. I grew up doing theater. I would go to theater camp. A"}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 10, "text": "But another question about your videos...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 11, "text": "You have an orchestra behind you when you're singing in your videos. Are those kind of, like, karaoke versions of the show tunes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 12, "text": "And are you going to be sued by any of the estates", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They are, yes. They're - they are ripped karaoke versions that I play with and sort of fine-tune and adjust to be, you know, unique to my videos."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 13, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They are, yes. They're - they are ripped karaoke versions that I play with and sort of fine-tune and adjust to be, you know, unique to my videos."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 14, "text": "...Whose composers' work you're using?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, now that..."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 15, "text": "Oh, good.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Can we go to the next question? No, I do have a very fancy lawyer now, and what I do falls pretty safely under fair use, you know, with..."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 16, "text": "Good. Please do not deny us these...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Parody and all of that."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yeah. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So far, so good."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 19, "text": "Right. Well, I don't think Sondheim's going to be suing you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We'll see after this interview airs. Thanks a lot."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 20, "text": "...'Cause he's a fan of your work. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, thankfully."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 21, "text": "That's great that the songwriters really love your work.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Can you believe it? You mentioned Sondheim. But I have, I'm happy to say, heard from most of the composers that I have parodied - everyone from Sondheim to Steven Schwartz to Andrew Lloyd Webber. So e"}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 22, "text": "So if you're just joining us, my guest is Randy Rainbow, who does song parodies - like, political ones - using Trump within the parodies and then doing songs about Trump. So this next song we're going to hear is \"He's In Love (And We're All Gonna Die),\" sung for - sung to the melody of \"I'm In Love With A Wonderful Guy\" from \"South Pacific.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 23, "text": "Yeah. This starts with you interviewing President Trump - again, taking Trump answers and inserting your own questions. And it starts with a little, like, take off of \"The Bachelor.\" So let's hear Randy Rainbow, \"He's In Love (And We're All Gonna Die).\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 24, "text": "That's Randy Rainbow - one of his many political song parodies to show tunes and pop songs. Have you learned a lot about writing lyrics from doing this? What I mean is, like, you're patterning your lyrics on some of the best lyricists who've ever written for the stage. And you're frequently following their rhyme schemes, which are sometimes pretty complicated, depending on whose work you're doing. But have you learned a lot from using the greatest lyricists' work as your template to write your own lyrics?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) ...Those sad, lovely feelings he feels. He gets horny for absolute power. Treacherous goons put a gleam in his eye. His taste in men stinks. Now he says that he thinks he's in love, and we'r"}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 25, "text": "So how did you match Trump's second meeting with Kim Jong Un with \"I'm In Love With A Wonderful Guy\"? How did those two things come together in your mind?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, absolutely. I have, and I've pushed myself to do so because I always considered song parody kind of cheap. And I've always been - part of me - a little embarrassed that I do it and that I'm, you"}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 26, "text": "Kim's in love with him. He's in love with him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that was one, I think - I think I have - I have a running list that I sort of refer to, and that was a song that I wanted to do for a while. So I had just been waiting for the right opportunity "}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 27, "text": "So who are some of the lyricists you've come to really appreciate?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Kim's in love with him. There you go."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 28, "text": "So I know Sondheim, one of your favorite lyricists, loves puzzles. But you loved puzzles, too, as a kid, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Sondheim has always been a god to me. He's really the main one. But I appreciate - I mean, Lin-Manuel Miranda is fabulous."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 29, "text": "How did you get to know Sondheim?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did have a thing for mazes. When I was a kid, I remember drawing little mazes constantly and puzzles. I loved that. And I remember - to sort of tie it together, I - when I started listening to Sondh"}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 30, "text": "Does he ever give you advice on lyrics?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I've been friends with his now-husband for many years. And so I was first introduced to him about 10 years ago when I was working with him - with Jeff, who's now working with me on my tour. So t"}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 31, "text": "He knows who the master is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He knows better than that, Terry. No, he's..."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 32, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He does. He's very generous. He's extremely generous. And he will compliment me all the time and say, your lyrics are so strong and, you know, how do you do it? - to which I say, Steve, you know, you "}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 33, "text": "Let's take a short break, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Randy Rainbow, and he does really funny song parodies about, typically, President Trump or, sometimes, Mike Pence. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have a gift - not about to explain it to you."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 34, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Randy Rainbow. And he writes and records song parodies, usually taking Broadway melodies and setting his own satirical lyrics to them. Typically, the songs are about President Trump or politics. And he posts them on YouTube; they get a gazillion views. And in August, he's going to start touring again with his show of his songs. So, you know, you've mentioned that a lot of songwriters like your work. I know a lot of Broadway people love your work. What about President Trump and Vice President Pence? Have they ever commented...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have a gift - not about to explain it to you."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 35, "text": "They're big fans, I'm sure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They're big fans."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 36, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We're all having brunch next Sunday."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 37, "text": "And they brought pink eyeglasses in honor of your - as a tribute to you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 38, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. You know."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 39, "text": "Haven't gotten that far yet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I haven't heard from anyone in the administration. You know, I've heard through the grapevine that people in the administration are fans, but no one has directly reached out to me. I'm trying every da"}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 40, "text": "OK. So let's hear another song, and this is to the tune of \"Sixteen Going On Seventeen\" from \"The Sound Of Music.\" And the song is about President Trump's endorsement of Roy Moore, the former chief justice of the Alabama Supreme Court. And this is when Moore was running for the Senate against Democrat Doug Jones. And Trump endorsed Moore in spite of the fact that several women had come forward and accused Moore of sexual misconduct with them when they were underage girls. So the song is about those girls, and it starts off with a verse about the girl who became his wife. And the setup is that Randy Rainbow is interviewing Kellyanne Conway, who is defending Trump's endorsement of Moore. So it starts - we're going to start by hearing Kellyanne.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, but I'm working on it."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 41, "text": "That's Randy Rainbow. And if you want to see more of his videos, they're all on YouTube. And that was recorded December 11, 2017. And if you think that that song is hopelessly out of date because Roy Moore lost, consider that in June, Roy Moore announced he intends on running again for the Senate. So \"Sixteen Going On Seventeen\" seems like an obvious song choice to use for the Roy Moore story. But how did you make that connection in your mind? It seems obvious after somebody makes the connection for you, but how did you think of using that melody?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Get out and vote for Roy Moore."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 42, "text": "Have you heard from Roy Moore?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know what? I think that one was a request. Now I have this nice following, so sometimes I will take requests from my fans online, and I think that was one of them."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 43, "text": "Yeah, a bit surprising.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, surprisingly."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 44, "text": ". My guest is Randy Rainbow. Yesterday, he was nominated for an Emmy for his YouTube series of videos featuring him performing his satirical songs about President Trump and his administration. We'll talk more after a break, and we'll listen back to my 2011 interview with former Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens. He died yesterday at the age of 99. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hasn't been to one of my meet-and-greets."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 45, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Randy Rainbow. He writes and performs song parodies about President Trump and his administration. Rainbow uses the melodies of show tunes and pop hits and writes original lyrics. His YouTube videos were just nominated for an Emmy for outstanding short-form variety series. So you were in, like, your mid-30s when people started to really know you. Did you think, like, it wasn't going to happen; that you weren't going to have the career you wanted; that you'd be doing, like, other jobs, you know, and then, you know, moonlighting with things that you wanted to do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hasn't been to one of my meet-and-greets."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 46, "text": "You say you had this, like, confidence. But at the same time, based on what I read, you didn't have that confidence when you were auditioning at cattle calls for Broadway shows.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think other people probably thought that about me, but I have some kind of weird inner quality that - it's just a confidence that I have. I'm very - I'm not very sure of anything in my life, but the"}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 47, "text": "Sensibility-wise, you are, like, the opposite of Donald Trump. But in spite of being so different from Trump, you've said that Trump reminds you of your father.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I've never been good at auditions. That's why this whole Internet thing we've got going has been such a blessing for me. And the fact that I've been able to utilize it to get myself out there is r"}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 48, "text": "How?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, Trump is absolutely a carbon copy of my father. And..."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 49, "text": "So what were the similarities?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, just behaviorally and - so much so that my father, who's no longer with us - he actually died shortly after Trump's election - but his campaign was going on, you know, at the end of his life. An"}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 50, "text": "So how did that affect you growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just that kind of phony, you know, bravado. And there's just, like, a - you know, I hate to put down any group of people, but there's just a generation of, like, New York guy that - he just came from "}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 51, "text": "Was he ever in therapy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was hard. I mean, it was - it made things very uncomfortable in my home and - you know, which is why I was locked in my room, making videos with my Barbie dolls. It was not a pleasant experie"}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 52, "text": "Was there this feeling in the house that unless your father was pleased that there would be, like, a dark cloud hanging over the family?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I don't believe so. No. He had no interest. I don't think - again, he really had no idea that there was anything wrong with him. It was everybody else."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 53, "text": "How - what was his reaction to you being gay?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Yeah. And it was a full-time job to sort of, you know, try to brush the cloud away. And you know, that's why I was really happy at 21 to leave the house. And that's kind of where - when my"}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 54, "text": "But your mother said she always knew. She was quoted in the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was - you know, for as negative a force he was in my life, he was also - he was not the worst. He was very tolerant and did not mind at all that I was gay. He also claims to have had no idea growin"}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 55, "text": "Yeah, 'cause that's the way it works.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she may have made this guy."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 56, "text": "So she was quoted in The Washington Post as saying she knew that you were gay when you were 3.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 57, "text": "I'll quote.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And I guess, you know..."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 58, "text": "She says, I knew he was gay by the time he was 3. He was constantly putting on shows and making the girls be the prince. He was always Snow White.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 59, "text": "Do you think that if that was happening today, your mother would think, gee, is my child trans? Should I...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's true. We would do major productions in my backyard, and I was really a nightmare to work with as a director. And yeah, there was a lot of gender swapping."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 60, "text": "So what were the first musicals your mother took you to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I often think of that, and I don't know. She very well might. And I think of that because I was an effeminate kid and - but I don't necessarily think - you know, I know I'm not trans. I don't feel - I"}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 61, "text": "You've done a parody of \"Trouble In River City\" from \"The Music Man.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The first musicals - well, I have this thing with \"Cats,\" no shade to Andrew Lloyd Webber. But you know, back to Sondheim - I remember being in New York and seeing the commercial for \"Into The Woods\" "}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 62, "text": "Oh, do you really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I open my live show with it now, actually."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 63, "text": "Oh. Do you want to do some of the patter for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 64, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. I said, you got trouble, my friends. Right here - you got trouble right here in America. Sure, I'm a liberal and a gay, I'm mighty proud to say. Well, I'm kind of scared to say it. I admit that "}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 65, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's better with the band, Terry."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 66, "text": "No, no that is great. Let's take a short break, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Randy Rainbow. And he does really funny song parodies about President Trump. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You'll have to come see a live show."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 67, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Randy Rainbow. He writes and performs satirical songs about President Trump and his administration. Rainbow writes original lyrics set to the melodies of show tunes and pop hits. You always wanted to get back to New York and try Broadway. So when you got to New York when you were in your 20s, what did you audition for, and what were those auditions like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You'll have to come see a live show."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 68, "text": "Did any of the, like, food restaurant bar kind of jobs you have have a theatrical aspect to it, like a piano bar or anything like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I came to New York, and I put the whole thing on hold because I was a terrified 21-year-old and more, like, you know, 15 because I just had not at all grown up. I don't know what gave me the courage t"}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 69, "text": "OK, that's - you don't have what you - it typically takes to work there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the first restaurant I worked in was Hooters."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 70, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's very rude of you to say."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 71, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But no, I - when I first moved to New York, my dear friend from childhood was working at Hooters as a waitress and said the manager here is a gay guy. And if you come in, he'll probably give you a job"}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 72, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that was kind of where I got my foot back in show business a little bit. They were working on shows at the time like \"Hairspray\" and the revival of \"Sweeney Todd\" with Patti Lupone."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 73, "text": "Did you talk with them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So for me it was heaven because I was sitting behind the desk, and at any given moment, Patti Lupone would call, or Elaine Stritch would walk through the front door. And I couldn't get over my life."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 74, "text": "Do you know Patti Lupone better now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A little bit. I was so scared out of my wits that, you know, not much came out. But yeah, I had some interactions."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 75, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Do I know her better? No, I don't. But I did do - before Trump came along and I was doing those more nonpolitical videos, I did a series of videos where I would lip sync to Patti Lupone's autobiograph"}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 76, "text": "That's hilarious, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know, the audiobook of it."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 77, "text": "How did you think of doing that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that was actually a - fairly a - at least among the gay and Broadway communities was kind of a fairly successful series for me. And I understand that she was a fan of that. I hope so."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 78, "text": "No.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I think I was just drunk one night and listening to her. Have you heard her autobiography, the audio..."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 79, "text": "No, I haven't.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Book version?"}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 80, "text": "Let's close with a Sondheim melody that you used for a parody. This is \"The Mueller Blues,\" and this was recorded in March 28, 2019. And it's to the melody of \"The God-Why-Don't-You-Love-Me Blues\" from Stephen Sondheim's show \"Follies.\" So talk about what you're doing in this song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I highly recommend it. It's eight years of Patti Lupone just letting everyone have it and just, you know - just - it just - it moved me to sort of act it out and add some drama to it and some visuals."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 81, "text": "Yeah. And you know, he's almost having, like, a little nervous breakdown...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this for me was the perfect song to kind of pinpoint the emotions that everyone was feeling that week because the Mueller report had come out, but it hadn't really. And people were happy, and th"}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 82, "text": "...In \"Follies\"...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 83, "text": "...When he sings this, yeah. So this was recorded right after the Mueller report was released. And right now I think you're waiting for Robert Mueller to testify so that you can write a Robert Mueller testifying parody.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's very breakdown-y."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 84, "text": "Well, while we're waiting for you to write and then post it on YouTube, let's hear your song from March of this year, \"The Mueller Blues.\" Randy Rainbow, it's just been great to talk with you. Thank you so much, and please keep doing what you're doing and do other things, too, 'cause I look forward to seeing you in a Broadway show or on TV.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I am. I've been waiting for some time now. They keep pushing it. Yeah, I'm toying with a few ideas, but I don't think I'll really know which direction I'll take until I see the testimony."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 85, "text": "And to you. And I should say that this song starts with you being interviewed, so to speak, by Wolf Blitzer of CNN about the results of Robert Mueller's investigation into the Trump campaign coordination with the Russians. And then you start singing about the results of the investigation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, wow - from your mouth. Thank you, Terry. It's been a pleasure to talk to you."}
{"id": "742618999", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 86, "text": "That's Randy Rainbow's song \"The Robert Mueller Blues.\" You can hear more of his songs on his website. His videos were just nominated for an Emmy in the category outstanding short form variety series. He'll resume his national performing tour next month. Coming up, we'll listen back to my interview with former Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens. He died yesterday. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Impeach."}
{"id": "742649790", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "John Paul Stevens", "title": "Remembering Retired Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Former Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens died yesterday at age 99. We're going to listen back to our interview with Stevens. Justice Stevens was appointed by President Ford and served on the court for 35 years before retiring in 2010. Some of Stevens' best-known opinions were his dissenting ones, including Bush v. Gore and Citizens United. He also wrote the majority opinion for the court in two cases that successfully challenged the Bush administration's approach to the war on terror. Stevens kept writing in his retirement. Last year, he wrote an op-ed for The New York Times after a school shooting, arguing for the repeal of the Second Amendment. I spoke with Stevens in 2011, after he'd retired and written a memoir called \"Five Chiefs.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "742649790", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "John Paul Stevens", "title": "Remembering Retired Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens", "question_index": 1, "text": "Justice Stevens, welcome to FRESH AIR. It's an honor to have you on the show. Is it something of a relief to be retired and not have the weight of having to make these really important - you know, opinions on really important cases that will affect the future of the country?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "742649790", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "John Paul Stevens", "title": "Remembering Retired Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens", "question_index": 2, "text": "One of your most famous dissenting opinions was also one of your last. It was the Citizens United case for which you wrote a 90-page dissenting opinion. That is - that's really long, isn't it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's definitely a relief, although I do miss the work and - which I enjoyed very much. But it is a relief."}
{"id": "742649790", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "John Paul Stevens", "title": "Remembering Retired Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's definitely a relief, although I do miss the work and - which I enjoyed very much. But it is a relief."}
{"id": "742649790", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "John Paul Stevens", "title": "Remembering Retired Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens", "question_index": 4, "text": "So this is the decision that overturned constraints on corporate spending in political campaigns and said that limits on corporate spending infringed on corporations' freedom of speech. Why were you so angry about this decision?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That is long. And that's probably why a lot of people haven't bothered to read it all."}
{"id": "742649790", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "John Paul Stevens", "title": "Remembering Retired Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens", "question_index": 5, "text": "So you're talking about deciding on narrower terms. And you write that you saw it as conservative judicial activism when the court sent back the lawyers in the Citizens United case and asked them to bring a more expansive version of the case and to address broader issues about the relationship of corporations to the First Amendment. And the way the Supreme Court decided the case, infringing on corporate spending was seen as infringing on a corporation's right to free speech and also equating a corporation's right to free speech with an individual's right to free speech. Correct me if I got any of that wrong.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't know if angry is the word or not. I thought it was incorrect in several respects. At the beginning of my 90 pages, I explain why the court would have been wiser to decide the case on nar"}
{"id": "742649790", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "John Paul Stevens", "title": "Remembering Retired Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens", "question_index": 6, "text": "OK. So were you surprised to see the Supreme Court equate a corporation's right to free speech with an individual's right to free speech.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "742649790", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "John Paul Stevens", "title": "Remembering Retired Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens", "question_index": 7, "text": "A question about Bush v. Gore - you describe the story in the book. It's - the Florida recount is happening in this contested election, and the Bush camp wants to take it to the Supreme Court and have the Supreme Court halt the recount. And as that process is beginning to be set in motion, you run into Justice Breyer at a Christmas party. And in casual conversation, you both agree this is a kind of frivolous case. It doesn't stand a chance of actually being accepted by the Supreme Court. The Supreme Court isn't going to hear it. Then, much to your surprise, the Supreme Court hears it and rules in favor of the Bush camp and stopping the Florida recount. What surprised you most in the argument that was made by the justices who wanted to not only hear the case, but stop the recount?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, not entirely, because some years ago, Justice Powell had written an opinion in the Bellotti case, which held that the First Amendment does protect a corporation's right to communicate with the p"}
{"id": "742649790", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "John Paul Stevens", "title": "Remembering Retired Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens", "question_index": 8, "text": "So because this was such a big decision and the country was so divided and the election was so close, was there a lot of tension in the court while that decision was in process?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I guess the thing that surprised me most was the fact that any justice thought that there was irreparable injury shown by the petitioners that would justify the action that was taken."}
{"id": "742649790", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "John Paul Stevens", "title": "Remembering Retired Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens", "question_index": 9, "text": "It strikes me - of all the Supreme Court decisions that I've ever tried to talk about on the air with a justice - and I've only interviewed you and Justice Breyer - but, like, that one seems like, I don't want to go there. That seems like the decision that justices, like, really don't want to talk about in public.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think I should comment on what went on within the court. I can say that it was consistent with what I said at the end of the brief. I think that the justices respected one another for the view"}
{"id": "742649790", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "John Paul Stevens", "title": "Remembering Retired Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens", "question_index": 10, "text": "Now, when you put on your judicial robe, did it transform you in any way? And I'm thinking, you know, how actors always say when they put on a certain costume, they feel more in character. It helps them get into the role. Did putting on the judicial robe give you the sense of, you know, gravity of the occasion?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I suppose that's right. And of course, I don't think it's a decision that has been cited since it was handed down."}
{"id": "742649790", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "John Paul Stevens", "title": "Remembering Retired Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens", "question_index": 11, "text": "And are the robes, like, custom-made for each judge, or do you go to, like, a - you know, a robe supply store and just pick out your size?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I frankly hadn't thought of it that way, but it may - that may well be true because it is a solemn occasion when you get ready to go on the bench and confront the issues that you have to confron"}
{"id": "742649790", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "John Paul Stevens", "title": "Remembering Retired Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens", "question_index": 12, "text": "Thank you so much for talking with us, and thank you for your service to the country.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I can remember. If you buy new robes, I think that's a business expense and can be deducted. But, in fact, my original robes were given to me by my former partners when I went on the bench, and I c"}
{"id": "742649790", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "John Paul Stevens", "title": "Remembering Retired Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens", "question_index": 13, "text": "My interview with former Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens was recorded in 2011. He died yesterday at the age of 99.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much. I enjoyed our conversation."}
{"id": "742649790", "date": "2019-07-17", "guest": "John Paul Stevens", "title": "Remembering Retired Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens", "question_index": 14, "text": "Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, my guest will be journalist Garrett Graff, who's covered federal law enforcement for more than a decade and has been writing about the Border Patrol and the roots of the current humanitarian crisis at the southern border. I hope you'll join us. Our technical director is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Adam Staniszewski. Our associate producer for digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much. I enjoyed our conversation."}
{"id": "743028537", "date": "2019-07-18", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Digs Into Years Of Corruption, Dysfunction At Border Protection Agency", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Behind the migrant center horrors on the southern border lies an agency plagued by years of dysfunction. And Trump is only its latest problem. My guest, Garrett Graff, writes that in his new article, \"The Border Patrol Hits A Breaking Point,\" published this week in Politico Magazine. The Border Patrol is part of the U.S. Customs and Border Protection Agency. Graff writes about the long-standing problems within the agency, including a culture of violence and corruption. In spite of Trump's fiery rhetoric about the threat at the southern border, Graff says Trump's promises to invest in the Border Patrol have gone unfulfilled. Trump's newly appointed acting Director of Customs and Border Protection Mark Morgan has expressed anti-immigration views and supports the immigration raids that started Sunday. Graff has written two other articles in Politico about problems in the Border Patrol, one published in 2016, the other, in 2014. Graff is a former editor at Politico and has covered federal law enforcement for over a decade. He's also a contributing writer with Wired. He's written several books including one about the FBI under Robert Mueller. Garrett Graff, welcome back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "743028537", "date": "2019-07-18", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Digs Into Years Of Corruption, Dysfunction At Border Protection Agency", "question_index": 1, "text": "You call Customs and Border Protection America's most troubled law enforcement agency. What makes it qualified for that dubious distinction?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks so much for having me."}
{"id": "743028537", "date": "2019-07-18", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Digs Into Years Of Corruption, Dysfunction At Border Protection Agency", "question_index": 2, "text": "And then, like, a new development that was discovered is that there's a Facebook group of Border Protection agents with approximately 9,500 members in which agents have made racist and misogynist comments. And the chief of the Border Patrol has been part of that group. What kinds of comments? Have you read these posts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Customs and Border Protection is the nation's largest law enforcement agency, with 45,000 gun-carrying officers and agents. That's larger than the NYPD. It's larger than the Coast Guard. And yet at th"}
{"id": "743028537", "date": "2019-07-18", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Digs Into Years Of Corruption, Dysfunction At Border Protection Agency", "question_index": 3, "text": "Wow. And there's also a new commemorative coin that was issued that I think is supposed to be satirical? Would you describe the coin?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And this is the latest example of what has been a very long-running and actually well-known insular racist and misogynistic culture that has pervaded the work of the Border Patrol and CBP really"}
{"id": "743028537", "date": "2019-07-18", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Digs Into Years Of Corruption, Dysfunction At Border Protection Agency", "question_index": 4, "text": "Let me read how the coin was described in a ProPublica article.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. This is a commemorative challenge coin, which is a series of coins that you see a lot of government agencies in law enforcement and the military and the intelligence community trade around to ho"}
{"id": "743028537", "date": "2019-07-18", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Digs Into Years Of Corruption, Dysfunction At Border Protection Agency", "question_index": 5, "text": "So on one side, it says, keep the caravans coming. And there's an image of a massive parade of people carrying a Honduran flag. The other side features the Border Patrol logo and three illustrations - a Border Patrol agent bottle-feeding an infant, an agent fingerprinting a teenage boy wearing a backwards baseball cap and a U.S. Border Patrol van. The text on that side reads, feeding, processing, hospital, transport. So this is not the job the agents signed up for, apparently. That's part of the problem that you see at the Border Patrol, the mismatch between what the agents thought they were signing up for and what the job has actually turned out to be. Would you talk about that a little bit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Yeah."}
{"id": "743028537", "date": "2019-07-18", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Digs Into Years Of Corruption, Dysfunction At Border Protection Agency", "question_index": 6, "text": "So this gets to, like, another issue in terms of the hiring of people in Customs and Border Protection. So the agency is created in 2004 after 9/11. There's a big influx of money, as you just said. A lot of people are hired as agents, but because there's such a rush to hire people and so much money to hire them quickly, the vetting was not very good. What are some of the problems that we now know CBP ran into in terms of vetting and hiring agents?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So and this really goes back to the founding of CBP and the creation of the Department of Homeland Security in 2003, which, it's hard to remember today just how poorly policed and secured our bo"}
{"id": "743028537", "date": "2019-07-18", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Digs Into Years Of Corruption, Dysfunction At Border Protection Agency", "question_index": 7, "text": "So President Trump has added new problems on the southern border. But in terms of Border Patrol, there were plenty of pre-existing problems.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The problem of rapid growth in any law enforcement agency is actually well-known and documented. Any police agency that tries to grow too quickly runs into integrity problems. The agency actually lowe"}
{"id": "743028537", "date": "2019-07-18", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Digs Into Years Of Corruption, Dysfunction At Border Protection Agency", "question_index": 8, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Garrett Graff, who's been writing about the Border Patrol since 2014, including a new piece in Politico Magazine, where he used to be editor. We'll talk more after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And actually, the - President Trump has not helped. He's actually exacerbated some of these problems. The Border Patrol really thought that Donald Trump was going to be the golden years for the "}
{"id": "743028537", "date": "2019-07-18", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Digs Into Years Of Corruption, Dysfunction At Border Protection Agency", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Garrett Graff, a journalist and author who's covered federal law enforcement for more than a decade and has been writing about the Border Patrol. He has a new piece this week in Politico Magazine titled \"The Patrol Hits A Breaking Point: Behind The Migrant Center Horrors Lies An Agency Plagued By Years Of Dysfunction - And Trump Is Only Its Latest Problem.\" So you've done a couple of other long pieces for Politico about Border Patrol, including one in 2016 in which you went to the Rio Grande Valley to see for yourself what was happening at the border there. And I'd like to compare what you saw with what's happening now three years later. But first, describe the importance of the Rio Grande Valley in the larger story of the southern border and migration.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And actually, the - President Trump has not helped. He's actually exacerbated some of these problems. The Border Patrol really thought that Donald Trump was going to be the golden years for the "}
{"id": "743028537", "date": "2019-07-18", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Digs Into Years Of Corruption, Dysfunction At Border Protection Agency", "question_index": 10, "text": "So you also write that people know the drill. They had their papers ready to show to the Border Patrol agents. They had family members they would wait with while awaiting a hearing on their asylum status. They knew exactly how to do it. I'm just wondering, during this period in 2016 when you were at the Rio Grande Valley border crossing area, were their cages like we're seeing now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Rio Grande Valley - centered around McAllen, Texas - is really the center of this migrant crisis and has been, frankly, for five or six years now. What we are seeing on the southern border is diff"}
{"id": "743028537", "date": "2019-07-18", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Digs Into Years Of Corruption, Dysfunction At Border Protection Agency", "question_index": 11, "text": "My guest is Garrett Graff. His new article in Politico Magazine is titled \"The Border Patrol Hits A Breaking Point.\" We'll talk more after a break. And Justin Chang will review the new remake of Disney's \"The Lion King.\" I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, the cages were actually at that point - of course, CBP would not describe them as cages. They would describe them as detention facilities. But the detention facilities were in fact a good step fo"}
{"id": "743028537", "date": "2019-07-18", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Digs Into Years Of Corruption, Dysfunction At Border Protection Agency", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with journalist Garrett Graff. He's a former editor at Politico and has written extensively for Politico about the migrant crisis on the southern border and dysfunction in the U.S. Border Patrol. His new article in Politico Magazine is titled \"The Border Patrol Hits A Breaking Point.\" When we left off, we were talking about the terrible conditions in migrant detention centers on the southern border in the Rio Grande Valley, where the majority of migrants from the Central American countries Guatemala, El Salvador and Honduras cross over into the U.S. Is it your impression that President Trump wants the conditions to be bad as a deterrent to other migrants, or do you think this is just kind of inadvertent - an inadvertent crisis...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, the cages were actually at that point - of course, CBP would not describe them as cages. They would describe them as detention facilities. But the detention facilities were in fact a good step fo"}
{"id": "743028537", "date": "2019-07-18", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Digs Into Years Of Corruption, Dysfunction At Border Protection Agency", "question_index": 13, "text": "...In terms of the cages?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I think it is..."}
{"id": "743028537", "date": "2019-07-18", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Digs Into Years Of Corruption, Dysfunction At Border Protection Agency", "question_index": 14, "text": "What's the point of being cruel?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that this is a very carefully designed crisis by the Trump administration. I think it seems clear from everything that we have seen over the last three years that the cruelty at the border is "}
{"id": "743028537", "date": "2019-07-18", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Digs Into Years Of Corruption, Dysfunction At Border Protection Agency", "question_index": 15, "text": "I'm wondering - I don't know if you can answer this - if many Border Patrol agents are turning against President Trump because of this humanitarian crisis at the border or whether they're blaming Obama for it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It plays to what Trump sees as his base. He was elected on this platform of getting tough on immigration. And I think he thinks that it also discourages people from trying to make the journey in the f"}
{"id": "743028537", "date": "2019-07-18", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Digs Into Years Of Corruption, Dysfunction At Border Protection Agency", "question_index": 16, "text": "So a lot of the children who we're seeing in cages now - not all of them, but a lot of them - came across the border, unaccompanied by an adult. But you write that that used to be a much bigger issue than it is now that there's fewer children crossing the border on their own now than there were back during the Obama administration.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that they are becoming more and more disaffected by Donald Trump. I had one - in this article this week - had a former Border Patrol union official say to me, quote, \"Trump is not delivering.\""}
{"id": "743028537", "date": "2019-07-18", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Digs Into Years Of Corruption, Dysfunction At Border Protection Agency", "question_index": 17, "text": "And yet, now we see all these cages of children that we had never seen before.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "743028537", "date": "2019-07-18", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Digs Into Years Of Corruption, Dysfunction At Border Protection Agency", "question_index": 18, "text": "How do we allow that to happen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. And that is a major impact of the Trump administration - is on how children are treated as they cross the border. During the Obama administration, you saw what they called this UAC crisis, th"}
{"id": "743028537", "date": "2019-07-18", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Digs Into Years Of Corruption, Dysfunction At Border Protection Agency", "question_index": 19, "text": "But this leads to another issue that you bring up, which is that Customs and Border Protection - you know, they have a lot of armed agents, and their qualifications are to do - like, catch terrorists and catch drug smugglers. A lot of the work that needs to be done at the border is administrative. And you make it seem like they need more administrative staff as opposed to, like, more agents who know how to use weapons.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it is one of the single greatest scandals of the Trump administration, and it's certainly one of the most inhumane things that I can think of America doing in modern history."}
{"id": "743028537", "date": "2019-07-18", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Digs Into Years Of Corruption, Dysfunction At Border Protection Agency", "question_index": 20, "text": "Is that because they're too busy processing people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And this is a twofold problem, right? So on the one hand, these agents - highly trained, armed law enforcement officers - are now spending a lot of their days sitting in these detention faciliti"}
{"id": "743028537", "date": "2019-07-18", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Digs Into Years Of Corruption, Dysfunction At Border Protection Agency", "question_index": 21, "text": "Do I understand correctly? Are you saying that the drug cartels are intentionally sending people over the border in the Rio Grande Valley to divert attention from the drug smugglers who are smuggling drugs in other areas?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly and that the drug cartels know this and take advantage of this, that these asylum-seeking migrants could legally just walk up to one of the official ports of entry and ask for asylum. And inst"}
{"id": "743028537", "date": "2019-07-18", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Digs Into Years Of Corruption, Dysfunction At Border Protection Agency", "question_index": 22, "text": "So are you saying that the drug smugglers are actually working in conjunction with the people who smuggle people across the border or that the drug smugglers are intentionally recruiting people and sending them across the border? Like, what is their role in getting people to cross as decoys?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly, and that's something that, you know, the Border Patrol has recognized for years. And it's part of why they are so frustrated with this current situation and crisis at the border because they "}
{"id": "743028537", "date": "2019-07-18", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Digs Into Years Of Corruption, Dysfunction At Border Protection Agency", "question_index": 23, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is journalist Garrett Graff, who's been writing about the Border Patrol since 2014, including a new piece in Politico Magazine, where he used to be editor. We'll talk more after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, so the drug cartels control both the narcotics smuggling and the human trafficking along the southern border on the Mexican side, and so if you are someone even seeking safe passage through that"}
{"id": "743028537", "date": "2019-07-18", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Digs Into Years Of Corruption, Dysfunction At Border Protection Agency", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is Garrett Graff, a journalist and author who's covered federal law enforcement for more than a decade and has been writing about the Border Patrol. He has a new piece about the Border Patrol in Politico Magazine. So on a related note, President Trump promised to hire 5,000 new agents, and apparently he hasn't delivered on that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, so the drug cartels control both the narcotics smuggling and the human trafficking along the southern border on the Mexican side, and so if you are someone even seeking safe passage through that"}
{"id": "743028537", "date": "2019-07-18", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Digs Into Years Of Corruption, Dysfunction At Border Protection Agency", "question_index": 25, "text": "In your estimation, how much of the humanitarian crisis at the southern border is a result of the large numbers of people crossing over from Mexico, and how much of it is a function of bad management and policies that you describe as cruel?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not only has he not delivered on the 5,000 new agents; the Border Patrol is so beleaguered that it has actually lost 2,000 agents from its peak under the Obama administration and is continuing to lose"}
{"id": "743028537", "date": "2019-07-18", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Digs Into Years Of Corruption, Dysfunction At Border Protection Agency", "question_index": 26, "text": "Is that intentional? It seems sometimes that Trump likes to have people who aren't permanent and don't need to be confirmed by the Senate.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's impossible to separate the two. The sheer numbers would be a crisis even in a well-run agency. But the unique cruelty of the Trump administration's policies has exacerbated it. The genera"}
{"id": "743028537", "date": "2019-07-18", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Digs Into Years Of Corruption, Dysfunction At Border Protection Agency", "question_index": 27, "text": "You've described the southern border in the Rio Grande Valley area as having a thriving border protection industry. Would you describe the industry?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So Donald Trump has made clear that he likes these temporary officials because they provide what he says is, quote, \"flexibility\" for him. What's also true in this case is that within DHS, he is"}
{"id": "743028537", "date": "2019-07-18", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Digs Into Years Of Corruption, Dysfunction At Border Protection Agency", "question_index": 28, "text": "Garrett Graff, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For all that we hear about the need to increase border spending, the need to build this big, expensive wall the length of the border, most people don't realize actually just how large of an industry b"}
{"id": "743028537", "date": "2019-07-18", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Digs Into Years Of Corruption, Dysfunction At Border Protection Agency", "question_index": 29, "text": "Garrett Graff's new article in Politico Magazine is titled \"The Border Patrol Hits A Breaking Point.\" His next book, \"An Oral History Of 9/11,\" will be published in September. After we take a short break, Justin Chang will review the new remake of \"The Lion King,\" which has computer-generated animals. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Always a pleasure."}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 0, "text": "When you were strapped down in July of 1969 waiting to head for the moon, and you heard the countdown, what were you thinking about when you heard the countdown?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, editor of the website TV Worth Watching, sitting in for Terry Gross. Tomorrow is the 50th anniversary of man's first steps on the moon, courtesy of the NASA Apo"}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 1, "text": "When you were heading toward the moon, it was Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin who were going to walk on the moon, and you were going to be in the command capsule circling the moon as they did their walk. Now, you confess in your new book that your big fear when you were alone in the command capsule was that you wouldn't be able to make contact with the other astronauts, and you'd have to leave without them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't like countdowns. I don't like - I think you're nervous enough without someone yelling in your ear. Ten, nine, eight, seven - it's totally unnecessary as far as the crew's concerned to tell the"}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 2, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 3, "text": "How did you know that it was going to work - that you were going to be able to meet up and return together? I mean...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's certainly true. I think a trip to the moon and back is a long and fragile chain of events. I think of it almost as a daisy chain. Any one link in that chain can break the entire sequence."}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 4, "text": "When was that moment...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I..."}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 5, "text": "...When you knew, this is it, we've made it? We've made it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did not know."}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 6, "text": "You wrote that when they returned, you wanted to give Buzz a big smooch on the forehead, and then you were too embarrassed, so you just shook his hand", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "pleased beyond measure to see them coming, like, right down the center line of the highway below me. I could see that the - from the - from my computer and from the information coming from their radar"}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "pleased beyond measure to see them coming, like, right down the center line of the highway below me. I could see that the - from the - from my computer and from the information coming from their radar"}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 8, "text": "So did you want to hear all about it when they got back in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 9, "text": "It was interesting to me - when you came back down to Earth and you landed in the water...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. We had a lot of things to talk over but not much time because then that's a really busy period there. You have to transfer all their equipment back into the command module, get rid of old Eagle, "}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 10, "text": "The capsule was upside-down...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 11, "text": "...For a while. And you had to be careful that you didn't get sick and throw up because what would the dangers have been if one of you had gotten sick in the suit you were wearing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 12, "text": "Boy, it would really be a hypochondriac's delight to come back from", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they were worried about our bringing germs back from the moon, and we were immediately put into a quarantine. First, we were in a small container aboard the aircraft carrier, and then that conta"}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 13, "text": "a moon voyage and then imagine yourself coming down with disease no Earth person has ever even, you know, heard of yet", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they were worried about our bringing germs back from the moon, and we were immediately put into a quarantine. First, we were in a small container aboard the aircraft carrier, and then that conta"}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they were worried about our bringing germs back from the moon, and we were immediately put into a quarantine. First, we were in a small container aboard the aircraft carrier, and then that conta"}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 15, "text": "I want to ask you about another really momentous space accomplishment in your life. And that was in July of 1966 when you were, I think, the first person in space to leave the vehicle and make contact with another space vehicle. Is that right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we thought the chances of that were extraordinarily remote. Neil used to try to explain it by saying if you multiply a very, very small number - that is the chances of our bringing any microbes "}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 16, "text": "When you were doing your spacewalk, what could you actually see?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. That was a spacewalk leaving Gemini - Gemini number 10 and floating over to an Agena, another unmanned vehicle that had been left in orbit and retrieving from that Agena an experiment package and"}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 17, "text": "How were you doing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My flight was only 16 minutes. We did have about 5 1/2 minutes of weightlessness. And the thing which we tried to cram into that 5 1/2 minutes had to do primarily with my ability to actually control t"}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 18, "text": "I mean, how did it feel to control the spacecraft while being weightless?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did great, of course I would."}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 19, "text": "Was it what you'd most wanted - to be that first American in space?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was a tremendous exhilaration, of course, of being up there in the first place - also the second place, that everything in fact - that everything was going well and then lastly, the fact that"}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 20, "text": "During a launch pad test of Apollo 1, there was a fire, and three astronauts were killed - Gus Grissom, Edward White and Roger Chaffee. What happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I think all of us wanted that. We were a very highly competitive group to start with. We were all test pilots. We knew that only one of the seven was going to get to go first. And you know, everyb"}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 21, "text": "You write in your book that you felt you couldn't get too emotional about it and that you had to take the attitude - well, that's part of the business. Did you have to take that attitude for the benefit of the other men who were waiting to be launched?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think - let me generalize first. And I think what the situation was at that time was that we had flown successful Mercury missions. We had flown successful Gemini missions. There was a sense o"}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 22, "text": "You were grounded for several years because of an inner-ear problem. And then you were able to be cured through a surgical process that surprised everybody by working and working very well. So then you got to go to the moon, which you'd long wanted to do. Now, before you landed on the moon, you lost your radar, and mission control was thinking you should abort. But you didn't. Why didn't you want to abort?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that all of us in those days, basically being test pilots, felt that was the way things go in our business. I mean, it wasn't the first of our friends that had been killed. A lot of contempora"}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 23, "text": "What, a little radar", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 24, "text": "? I mean, what was it like for you to maneuver the ship without radar? What was blinded without radar?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well, what did you plan on doing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, actually, let me just back up a little bit. We had a problem earlier on the way out where we couldn't dock with the lunar module. That was traumatic. We finally got that resolved. And off we wen"}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 26, "text": "What surprised you most about how the surface of the moon looked?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I would have gone down at least to the point where we could have pitched over and taken a look at the surface because I had great faith in our ability to land from almost any off-nominal case."}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 27, "text": "Alan Shepard, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think we had any surprises about the actual surface of the moon, about the barrenness. We had looked at pictures of our landing site taken by previous missions. We had worked with the models t"}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 28, "text": "Commander Hadfield, welcome to FRESH AIR. So how many times were you actually out in space, out of the capsule or out of the space station?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Ground Control to Major Tom. Ground Control to Major Tom. Lock your Soyuz hatch, and put your helmet on. Ground Control to Major Tom."}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 29, "text": "Now, during those 15 hours when you were doing spacewalks, was there always a technical reason to be out there? Was it always part of the mission? Or was it ever just...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I've been so lucky to have done two spacewalks. If you looked at your wristwatch, I was outside about 15 hours, which is about 10 times around the world."}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 30, "text": "You don't go out just to, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, we don't go out..."}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 31, "text": "No, like, this is so cool; I'm just going to go outside and enjoy it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 32, "text": "Now, you write in your book that when you did a spacewalk, my No. 1 concern was to avoid floating off into space, which is a pretty major", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a really big deal to do a spacewalk. It's much riskier than staying indoors. It's complex. It uses up a lot of the precious resources onboard - uses up oxygen, uses up carbon dioxide scrubbers. Y"}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 33, "text": "concern.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a really big deal to do a spacewalk. It's much riskier than staying indoors. It's complex. It uses up a lot of the precious resources onboard - uses up oxygen, uses up carbon dioxide scrubbers. Y"}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 34, "text": "Yeah, so how are you tethered to - what was it? - the space station that you were tethered to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Seems like a good idea, yeah."}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 35, "text": "One of the exercises that you basically put yourself through in preparing to be an astronaut is what you describe as, what's the next thing that will kill me 'cause there are so many things that can go wrong and be life threatening in space. Give us a sense of what that what's-the-next-thing-that-will-kill-me training process is like.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I did my spacewalks, it was during space station construction. So the shuttle was docked to the fledgling ISS at the time. So you're either clipped to the shuttle or to the space station somewher"}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 36, "text": "And you say in order to make this work, you have to neutralize fear.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, I found it to be so helpful in my regular life. But of course as an astronaut, especially during a launch, half of the risk of a six-month flight is in the first nine minutes. So as a crew, how"}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 37, "text": "Thank you", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "also. So you have to practice..."}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 38, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "also. So you have to practice..."}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 39, "text": "You had to do some technical work in space. What are some of the problems of working in a weightless, gravityless atmosphere?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And learn, what's the right thing to do? But given that, it actually gives you a really great comfort. It's counterintuitive, you know, to visualize disaster. But by visualizing disaster, that's wh"}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 40, "text": "Would you describe what it's like to re-enter the Earth's atmosphere?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's really non-intuitive. But having grown up and adapted and expected everything to behave like it does on Earth - you know, if you drop your hammer, it falls to the floor. If you let go of a little"}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 41, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's like riding inside a blast furnace. You come into the upper atmosphere, and it gets to 3,000 degrees on the outside of the ship. You can see the orange and yellow flames licking around your vehic"}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 42, "text": "Oh, God.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Have to get squished like that. And if it goes a little bit wrong, it reverts to a mode where you don't fly it at all. It's just ballistic. And then you pull about 8G or 9G. And then the parachute "}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 43, "text": "You know, an interesting thing about talking with you and reading your book - like, one of the extra qualifications that you brought to your work as an astronaut is your ability to be a reporter, to describe so well what it is you've seen and then send us back reports...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's how violent the landing's going to be. And it hits the ground. There's little retrorockets that fire, and they cushion it. But it still hits the ground like a car crash. And we land in - on the"}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 44, "text": "...You know, for those of us who aren't experts, send us back...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's how violent the landing's going to be. And it hits the ground. There's little retrorockets that fire, and they cushion it. But it still hits the ground like a car crash. And we land in - on the"}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 45, "text": "Yes, exactly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Space correspondent, yeah."}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 46, "text": "No, it's a wonderful thing. So thank you for all that. I wish you all the best. And thanks for doing this interview.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 47, "text": "The plane that you broke the sound barrier in, the X-1, had a nose cone that was designed like a bullet. How come?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was Sam Shepard as Chuck Yeager in the film \"The Right Stuff.\" Terry Gross spoke with Chuck Yeager in 1988. She asked him about breaking the sound barrier and about the plane he flew to do it."}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 48, "text": "Was it comfortable where you'd have to sit in the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, because they knew that bullets flew faster than sound, and the ogive, or shape of the fuselage, of the X-1 was shaped like a .50 caliber bullet. And that's just common sense because like I say, "}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 49, "text": "Well, when you were flying it, what indications would you have? What kind of meters would tell you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no. It was very uncomfortable. And the reason was we had no source of power in the X-1. We used compressed nitrogen gas to do all the work, like raise and lower the gear and pressurize the liqui"}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 50, "text": "...When you had actually broken the sound barrier?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 51, "text": "Could you hear the sonic boom...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had an altimeter that told me how high I was. I had an indicated airspeed, and that told me how fast I was going through the air in miles per hour. But the one thing that we relied on was a Ma"}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 52, "text": "...From the plane?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 53, "text": "When you realized that you'd broken the speed of sound, that your mission was accomplished, did you stay up in the air a while and just have a good time and celebrate?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, you're in the airplane, which is - in a pressurized cockpit. And of course you've got a helmet on, an oxygen mask. And no, you're making the shockwave. It's on your airplane. And it - you don't he"}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 54, "text": "What were the reasons for classifying it? Why was it so top secret?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't have - no, you can't stay up there because see; a rocket, you burn out all of your fuel. It don't know how to last 2 1/2 minutes. And then you're gliding down to make a deadstick landing on R"}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 55, "text": "Now, this is a very exciting time when you were flying these test missions. You had a few close calls, though, when you were flying the X-1 and the X-1A. There was one time - I think it was in the X-1A, which was the follow-up plane to the X-1 - where you had gotten too high and...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1988 interview with General Chuck Yeager. As a test pilot, he broke the sound barrier, set speed records for flying and flew some extremely dangerous test "}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 56, "text": "Well, you know, you describe what it's like to see the ground coming up at you at a thousand feet per second. That's a pretty dramatic image. How do you react? I mean, how can you think clearly...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, too fast, Terry. The X-1A only made four flights in it. But on that particular flight, I'm setting at some, you know, 80,000 feet, going at 2.5 Mach number or at 2 1/2 times the speed of sound o"}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 57, "text": "...Under those circumstances when you're just, like, seconds away from...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you don't..."}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 58, "text": "...Actually meeting the Earth?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 59, "text": "Now, you say that some pilots end up crashing because they take too long to decide whether to jump or land when the plane has gotten out of control.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's - you don't think. As I mentioned here a few minutes back in the broadcast, you really don't think about the outcome of anything. You concentrate on survival at the time. And you do everything "}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 60, "text": "You trained a lot of men who became astronauts. Do you regret that you missed the period where you could have become an astronaut yourself and gone off into space?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, accidents in aircraft - you know, there's human error involved in accidents about 75% of the time. And this could be pilot error or maintenance error or design or something. It's - anyway, human"}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 61, "text": "Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I didn't miss the period. Actually, I was primed for the space program which started in 1959. The only problem was in order to apply for the space program or the first Mercury astronauts, you ha"}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 62, "text": "Oh, I see, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm too old."}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 63, "text": "I have one quick question for you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You couldn't get a lot of longevity out of me, see?"}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 64, "text": "I know I've been woken up several times in the middle of the night, especially when I was a child, by sonic booms. And I was wondering if that ever happened to you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 65, "text": "No wonder I only remember it from childhood", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I - noises don't scare me. Yes, I suppose I'm hardened to it. And one thing - very few people hear sonic booms today because there are specified quarters for flying faster than speed of sound in, "}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 66, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I - noises don't scare me. Yes, I suppose I'm hardened to it. And one thing - very few people hear sonic booms today because there are specified quarters for flying faster than speed of sound in, "}
{"id": "743431254", "date": "2019-07-19", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Commemorates The 50th Anniversary Of Apollo 11's Moon Landing", "question_index": 67, "text": "Well, I thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "744068399", "date": "2019-07-22", "guest": "Haider Warraich", "title": "'State Of The Heart' Cardiologist Assesses Breakthroughs In Heart Health", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Breakthroughs in heart medicine, including surgical procedures, devices and medications, have changed how various forms of heart disease are treated and enabled many people to live longer lives. We're going to hear about some of those new developments from Haider Warraich, author of the new book \"State Of The Heart: Exploring The History, Science, And Future Of Cardiac Disease.\" We're also going to talk about cholesterol and blood pressure. Warraich previously joined us to talk about his book \"Modern Death: How Medicine Changed The End Of Life.\" He's a cardiologist who began his medical training in Pakistan, where he's from, and continued his training in cardiology at Harvard Medical School and Duke University. In September, he joins the faculty of Brigham and Women's Hospital at Harvard Medical School and the Boston VA. Doctor Haider Warraich, welcome back to FRESH AIR. You write that during the time that you were a medical student, you saw so many changes in heart medicine and technology. Tell us about one that you think is most significant.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "744068399", "date": "2019-07-22", "guest": "Haider Warraich", "title": "'State Of The Heart' Cardiologist Assesses Breakthroughs In Heart Health", "question_index": 1, "text": "Yes, and you describe this device, which is an LVAD - which stands for left ventricular assist device - you describe it as representing the dawn of a new era in human life, the union of man and machine. Because you're totally dependent on the machine, I mean, every second of the day. But really, the idea of, like, no pulse. I can't - it's, like, hard for me to conceive of that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I was a medical resident up at the Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center in Boston, this was around the time when a new device had just started to be used in clinical practice that I had really ne"}
{"id": "744068399", "date": "2019-07-22", "guest": "Haider Warraich", "title": "'State Of The Heart' Cardiologist Assesses Breakthroughs In Heart Health", "question_index": 2, "text": "Why don't you have a pulse when your blood is being pumped by the LVAD device?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it's hard as a physician. I mean, checking someone's pulse is part of the - you know, one of the sort of purest and oldest rituals in medicine. When you come up to someone, you shake their han"}
{"id": "744068399", "date": "2019-07-22", "guest": "Haider Warraich", "title": "'State Of The Heart' Cardiologist Assesses Breakthroughs In Heart Health", "question_index": 3, "text": "It's not pumping. It's a continuous flow?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the reason we have a pulse is because the heart beats rhythmically, you know, beat by beat. And with every beat, it sends a pulsation through the body that can be felt as a pulse. But the VAD, the "}
{"id": "744068399", "date": "2019-07-22", "guest": "Haider Warraich", "title": "'State Of The Heart' Cardiologist Assesses Breakthroughs In Heart Health", "question_index": 4, "text": "Isn't it another strange thing about this device - and again, I found this really hard to imagine. You write about a patient whose device was still pumping blood even though the patient had died.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a continuous flow."}
{"id": "744068399", "date": "2019-07-22", "guest": "Haider Warraich", "title": "'State Of The Heart' Cardiologist Assesses Breakthroughs In Heart Health", "question_index": 5, "text": "There's another breakthrough in heart medicine that happened while you were a medical student. In fact, you witnessed it. And I'm thinking of aortic valve surgery. You observed the first time a transcatheter aortic valve was placed in a patient in a minimally invasive procedure. So, like, what was - tell us about this procedure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, you know, LVADs are really a great therapy. I've seen them really transform some patients' lives. It's allowed a lot of patients to, you know, live parts of their life that they may never have bee"}
{"id": "744068399", "date": "2019-07-22", "guest": "Haider Warraich", "title": "'State Of The Heart' Cardiologist Assesses Breakthroughs In Heart Health", "question_index": 6, "text": "There are several heart procedures now that used to be much more difficult and risky. And now they're minimally - they're like minimal invasive procedures. But bypass surgery, has that really come very far in the past decade or so? I mean, doctors still have to cut the chest open and saw through the breastbone and put the heart in a heart-lung machine. I mean, it still seems like such a really difficult procedure for the patient.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So one of the things that is a disease that's fairly common is called aortic stenosis. The aortic valve is the last door that the blood has to leave before it leaves the heart and enters the rest of t"}
{"id": "744068399", "date": "2019-07-22", "guest": "Haider Warraich", "title": "'State Of The Heart' Cardiologist Assesses Breakthroughs In Heart Health", "question_index": 7, "text": "Well, I want to talk with you about stents a little later. Right now, we have to take a short break, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Dr. Haider Warraich. He's a cardiologist and author of the new book \"State Of The Heart: Exploring The History, Science, And Future Of Cardiac Disease.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it is a difficult procedure. It has gotten better over time. And - but again, I, you know, one of the patients that I spoke to who had had bypass surgery, I mean, he described to me what it fe"}
{"id": "744068399", "date": "2019-07-22", "guest": "Haider Warraich", "title": "'State Of The Heart' Cardiologist Assesses Breakthroughs In Heart Health", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Dr. Haider Warraich. He's the author of the new book \"State Of The Heart: Exploring The History, Science, And Future Of Cardiac Disease.\" You write what constitutes a heart attack is different from what was a heart attack 10 or 20 years ago. How has our definition of a heart attack changed or a diagnosis of a heart attack?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it is a difficult procedure. It has gotten better over time. And - but again, I, you know, one of the patients that I spoke to who had had bypass surgery, I mean, he described to me what it fe"}
{"id": "744068399", "date": "2019-07-22", "guest": "Haider Warraich", "title": "'State Of The Heart' Cardiologist Assesses Breakthroughs In Heart Health", "question_index": 9, "text": "The most low-tech version of diagnosing a heart attack is what is described as the eyeball test, which you say is really important in diagnosing a heart attack. What's the eyeball test?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, you know, a few decades ago, the only way that, you know, you could diagnose a heart attack was by looking at the electrocardiogram. This is, you know, also called the EKG, which is the squiggly l"}
{"id": "744068399", "date": "2019-07-22", "guest": "Haider Warraich", "title": "'State Of The Heart' Cardiologist Assesses Breakthroughs In Heart Health", "question_index": 10, "text": "While we're on the subject of women and heart disease, how do women's symptoms present differently than men's sometimes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the eyeball test is, you know, you walk into a patient's room, and you just eyeball them and get all the sort of information you need from them based on just a visual inspection. Are they - do t"}
{"id": "744068399", "date": "2019-07-22", "guest": "Haider Warraich", "title": "'State Of The Heart' Cardiologist Assesses Breakthroughs In Heart Health", "question_index": 11, "text": "Let's talk about blood pressure a little bit. It's a standard part of physicals, of, I think, most medical exams, especially if you're prone to high blood pressure. You can have your blood pressure tested more frequently. I think most of us don't really understand what blood pressure is and why there's two separate readings, the higher - you know, the upper number and the lower number and what they each indicate. So just give us a basic brief overview, if you would, about what blood pressure is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So this is a bit controversial. But, you know - but women are more likely to have what's called atypical symptoms, in which - which include symptoms other than your classic chest pain. This could incl"}
{"id": "744068399", "date": "2019-07-22", "guest": "Haider Warraich", "title": "'State Of The Heart' Cardiologist Assesses Breakthroughs In Heart Health", "question_index": 12, "text": "My guest is cardiologist Dr. Haider Warraich, author of the new book, \"State Of The Heart: Exploring The History, Science, And Future Of Cardiac Disease.\" After a break, we'll talk about how stents are used in treating heart disease and heart attacks. And David Bianculli will review the new \"Veronica Mars\" sequel series, which is now streaming on Hulu. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. So every time the heart beats, blood is injected into the arteries of a human being, of - you know, like me and you. And that injection of blood basically sends a pulsation that travels througho"}
{"id": "744068399", "date": "2019-07-22", "guest": "Haider Warraich", "title": "'State Of The Heart' Cardiologist Assesses Breakthroughs In Heart Health", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to our interview with cardiologist Haider Warraich, author of the new book \"State of The Heart: Exploring The History, Science And Future Of Cardiac Disease.\" In September, he joins the faculty of Brigham and Women's Hospital at Harvard Medical School and the Boston VA. He began his medical training in Pakistan, where he's from, and continued his training in cardiology at Harvard Medical School and Duke University. We're talking about new developments in treating heart disease. Let's talk about stents. There have been breakthroughs in stents. On the other hand, their value has been questioned in some situations. Let's start with, what is a stent? What is it supposed to accomplish?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. So every time the heart beats, blood is injected into the arteries of a human being, of - you know, like me and you. And that injection of blood basically sends a pulsation that travels througho"}
{"id": "744068399", "date": "2019-07-22", "guest": "Haider Warraich", "title": "'State Of The Heart' Cardiologist Assesses Breakthroughs In Heart Health", "question_index": 14, "text": "So the substance that mostly clogs arteries is plaque. When I think of plaque, I think of dental plaque. Is there any connection between dental plaque and the plaque that can clog arteries?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the heart, even though it's full of blood - it's pumping blood to the rest of the body - it also has its own separate supply of blood that comes from these teeny tiny arteries called the coronary a"}
{"id": "744068399", "date": "2019-07-22", "guest": "Haider Warraich", "title": "'State Of The Heart' Cardiologist Assesses Breakthroughs In Heart Health", "question_index": 15, "text": "So the cholesterol creates the plaques, which clog the arteries. Let's talk a bit about cholesterol. There's two kinds of cholesterol now. There's the good guy cholesterol and the bad guy cholesterol. The LDL is the bad guy. The HDL is the good guy. It's relatively new that doctors have divided cholesterol on those two different parts. So can you explain what the difference is between the good HDL and the bad LDL cholesterol?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So there is no direct connection, but bad dental hygiene actually is a risk factor for heart disease. But the plaques are totally different. The plaques that form in the blood vessels are basically - "}
{"id": "744068399", "date": "2019-07-22", "guest": "Haider Warraich", "title": "'State Of The Heart' Cardiologist Assesses Breakthroughs In Heart Health", "question_index": 16, "text": "So if you eat foods that are high in HDL cholesterol, it's not necessarily going to help you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. So LDL cholesterol is basically a protein that transports cholesterol from your liver to the rest of the body. And if you have inflammation - if you're inflamed or if you have sites in the blood"}
{"id": "744068399", "date": "2019-07-22", "guest": "Haider Warraich", "title": "'State Of The Heart' Cardiologist Assesses Breakthroughs In Heart Health", "question_index": 17, "text": "I see.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it is controversial. But certainly, taking medication that raise HDL cholesterol, so far, has not been helpful. But if you..."}
{"id": "744068399", "date": "2019-07-22", "guest": "Haider Warraich", "title": "'State Of The Heart' Cardiologist Assesses Breakthroughs In Heart Health", "question_index": 18, "text": "Statins are drugs that are used to treat high cholesterol. You seem very enthusiastic about them in your book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Do other things like if you exercise or if you watch your diet and if your HDL rises because of those lifestyle changes, that can actually result in meaningful benefit."}
{"id": "744068399", "date": "2019-07-22", "guest": "Haider Warraich", "title": "'State Of The Heart' Cardiologist Assesses Breakthroughs In Heart Health", "question_index": 19, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Dr. Haider Warraich. He's a cardiologist and author of the new book \"State Of The Heart: Exploring The History, Science, And Future Of Cardiac Disease.\" We're going to take a short break. Then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I am like anyone else. And I would strongly advise everyone listening is that, you know, we need to be very skeptical in general but especially of medications. There's very few things in life or"}
{"id": "744068399", "date": "2019-07-22", "guest": "Haider Warraich", "title": "'State Of The Heart' Cardiologist Assesses Breakthroughs In Heart Health", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Dr. Haider Warraich. He's the author of the new book \"State Of The Heart: Exploring The History, Science, And Future Of Cardiac Disease.\" When we last spoke, in late January of 2017 - this was shortly after Donald Trump was inaugurated - your father couldn't get a visa to visit you in the U.S. And your mother, who had a visa, was denied entry to the U.S. during - and this was during the Obama administration. And she was told she had to get a new visa, and then she was rejected when she applied for it. Is - are their visa statuses still the same?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I am like anyone else. And I would strongly advise everyone listening is that, you know, we need to be very skeptical in general but especially of medications. There's very few things in life or"}
{"id": "744068399", "date": "2019-07-22", "guest": "Haider Warraich", "title": "'State Of The Heart' Cardiologist Assesses Breakthroughs In Heart Health", "question_index": 21, "text": "Were they ever given reasons for their visas being denied?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Their visa statuses are still the same. My parents have applied multiple times and have been denied visas. But we're hoping that will change. In fact, just today, I'll be filling out the form to apply"}
{"id": "744068399", "date": "2019-07-22", "guest": "Haider Warraich", "title": "'State Of The Heart' Cardiologist Assesses Breakthroughs In Heart Health", "question_index": 22, "text": "So you're applying for citizenship. Your parents don't have visas. But you hope, after you become a citizen, you'll be able to sponsor them and bring them here. But your daughter was born here, so she is a citizen. So what's it like for you to have a daughter who is a citizen of the United States while you're trying to become one?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They have never been given a reason, and it's not for lack of trying. And this is the - you know, we've - you know, they have talked to people. They have done multiple interviews. They have never been"}
{"id": "744068399", "date": "2019-07-22", "guest": "Haider Warraich", "title": "'State Of The Heart' Cardiologist Assesses Breakthroughs In Heart Health", "question_index": 23, "text": "Meanwhile, I think a lot of us have heard President Trump at a campaign rally talking about four new women members of Congress, women of color, and - Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Ilhan Omar, Ayanna Pressley and Rashida Tlaib, three of them born in America. All are citizens. And he, during the rally, was saying things that many people have interpreted as racist about them. And the people in the audience were chanting, send her back, send her back. As an immigrant from Pakistan trying to become a citizen now, what goes through your mind when you hear that chant?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "America is more than just a country. It's an idea. And the idea is that you can come here, and you can succeed and become a part of this society and not only help yourself, but help everyone you touch"}
{"id": "744068399", "date": "2019-07-22", "guest": "Haider Warraich", "title": "'State Of The Heart' Cardiologist Assesses Breakthroughs In Heart Health", "question_index": 24, "text": "Aren't you tempted to say when somebody says go back to where you came from, to explain to them that you're a cardiologist, and you're here saving lives?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's gut-wrenching. And I have - when I saw that video, I didn't have the stomach to open it up. Also, because, you know, like so many others, I have heard that myself. My wife has heard that herself."}
{"id": "744068399", "date": "2019-07-22", "guest": "Haider Warraich", "title": "'State Of The Heart' Cardiologist Assesses Breakthroughs In Heart Health", "question_index": 25, "text": "So the first time you were on FRESH AIR in late January, just a couple of weeks after Donald Trump's inauguration, you said to me, you know, that you'd only lived here since 2010, and you'd only really known the Obama presidency. And you said, I don't know what Trump's America will look like for me, but it does fill me with a great deal of trepidation. How does it look to you so far?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's why I've always tried to focus on my work. That's why I always want people to know that I am from Pakistan, but that I am here in a capacity where I have this wonderful, great privilege, not ju"}
{"id": "744068399", "date": "2019-07-22", "guest": "Haider Warraich", "title": "'State Of The Heart' Cardiologist Assesses Breakthroughs In Heart Health", "question_index": 26, "text": "Haider Warraich, thank you so much for joining us again. It was really good to talk with you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In some ways, it looks better and worse than I would have thought. In some ways, I do think that the checks and balances that are present in our government, in the judiciary, in our media, in our publ"}
{"id": "744068399", "date": "2019-07-22", "guest": "Haider Warraich", "title": "'State Of The Heart' Cardiologist Assesses Breakthroughs In Heart Health", "question_index": 27, "text": "Dr. Haider Warraich is the author of \"State Of The Heart: Exploring The History, Science, And Future Of Cardiac Disease.\" After we take a short break, David Bianculli will review the new \"Veronica Mars\" sequel-series, which is now streaming on Hulu. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "744431081", "date": "2019-07-23", "guest": "Paul Krassner", "title": "Remembering Paul Krassner, Journalist And Co-Founder Of The Yippies", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're going to listen back to an interview with Paul Krassner, who was a prominent figure of the 60s counterculture. He died Sunday at the age of 87. Krassner was considered one of the fathers of the underground press because he published and edited The Realist magazine from 1958 to 1974. He described The Realist as a magazine of free thought, criticism and satire. Pieces that were too radical or controversial for the mainstream press found a home in The Realist. Lenny Bruce, Jean Shepherd, Abbie Hoffman, Terry Southern and Jules Feiffer were some of the people Krassner published. He also contributed to his own interviews with people ranging from Woody Allen to Patty Hearst. Krassner described his editorial philosophy as combining entertainment with the First Amendment. He was also famous for confounding the Yippies, along with Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin. The Yippies were a politically and culturally radical group whose protests and demonstrations sometimes took the form of pranks or street theater. I spoke with Krassner in 1988.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "744431081", "date": "2019-07-23", "guest": "Paul Krassner", "title": "Remembering Paul Krassner, Journalist And Co-Founder Of The Yippies", "question_index": 1, "text": "You started The Realist in 1958, and this was really before the underground press, or at least before the alternative press was given that name of the underground press. Why did you see a need for something like The Realist, for publishing the kinds of things that were either so radical or so bizarre that they wouldn't appear in the mainstream press?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "744431081", "date": "2019-07-23", "guest": "Paul Krassner", "title": "Remembering Paul Krassner, Journalist And Co-Founder Of The Yippies", "question_index": 2, "text": "So tell me more about your vision for The Realist when you started it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had been doing freelance stuff for Mad Magazine and for \"The Steve Allen Show.\" And I just came in contact with more and more taboos. The first thing I did for Mad Magazine was a thing called "}
{"id": "744431081", "date": "2019-07-23", "guest": "Paul Krassner", "title": "Remembering Paul Krassner, Journalist And Co-Founder Of The Yippies", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first thing, I was still living with my parents at the time. I was publishing what was considered the hippest magazine in the country, and I was living with my parents. And I remember they were "}
{"id": "744431081", "date": "2019-07-23", "guest": "Paul Krassner", "title": "Remembering Paul Krassner, Journalist And Co-Founder Of The Yippies", "question_index": 4, "text": "You were one of the founders of the Yippies with Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin. And it was you who actually coined the name. So why don't you tell us how you did it, how you came up with it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And of course in their eyes, I was a Martian. And I think it was a kind of species - a need for community, for an extended family so that I knew I couldn't be the only Martian on my block or there was"}
{"id": "744431081", "date": "2019-07-23", "guest": "Paul Krassner", "title": "Remembering Paul Krassner, Journalist And Co-Founder Of The Yippies", "question_index": 5, "text": "'Cause everything has to be an acronym, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we were having a meeting. This was on the afternoon of December 31, 1967, on the Lower East Side of New York at the home of Abbie and Anita Hoffman. There were several of us there. And we were p"}
{"id": "744431081", "date": "2019-07-23", "guest": "Paul Krassner", "title": "Remembering Paul Krassner, Journalist And Co-Founder Of The Yippies", "question_index": 6, "text": "I'm sure in the '60s that you always wondered if you were followed by the FBI and what was in your FBI files. I don't know if you ever filed under the Freedom of Information Act.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, just to give it an organic derivation even though I was working backwards. So the letters Y, I and P - Yippies would derive out of that. And then, again, working backwards, I saw that the words "}
{"id": "744431081", "date": "2019-07-23", "guest": "Paul Krassner", "title": "Remembering Paul Krassner, Journalist And Co-Founder Of The Yippies", "question_index": 7, "text": "You got your files?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no, I got my files, my FBI..."}
{"id": "744431081", "date": "2019-07-23", "guest": "Paul Krassner", "title": "Remembering Paul Krassner, Journalist And Co-Founder Of The Yippies", "question_index": 8, "text": "What's one of the most interesting things in your file?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And my CIA files, both. Yeah."}
{"id": "744431081", "date": "2019-07-23", "guest": "Paul Krassner", "title": "Remembering Paul Krassner, Journalist And Co-Founder Of The Yippies", "question_index": 9, "text": "Did you ever get rid of the paranoia that there was maybe somebody tapping your phone or following you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess the most frightening was that, in 1969, the FBI published and distributed anonymously a flyer which had on it a large swastika. And in each square of the swastika was a photo of Jerry Rubin, A"}
{"id": "744431081", "date": "2019-07-23", "guest": "Paul Krassner", "title": "Remembering Paul Krassner, Journalist And Co-Founder Of The Yippies", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, listen. Paul Krassner, thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I tried to avoid the paranoia by having as a criterion that everything I said was on the record. And so I virtually had no secrets except perhaps the name of my marijuana dealer. But everything "}
{"id": "744431081", "date": "2019-07-23", "guest": "Paul Krassner", "title": "Remembering Paul Krassner, Journalist And Co-Founder Of The Yippies", "question_index": 11, "text": "Paul Krassner, recorded in 1988. He died Sunday at the age of 87. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, my guest will be Lulu Wang. We'll talk about drawing on her own experiences to write and direct the new film \"The Farewell.\" When her grandmother in China was diagnosed with stage 4 cancer and given three months to live, the family flew to China to see her but decided not to tell her about the prognosis to spare her the anxiety. Lulu had to betray her instincts and hide the truth, too. I hope you'll join us. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. I'm Terry Gross. We'll close with a song featuring Art Neville singing lead. He died yesterday at age 81. He was a founding member of the Neville Brothers and The Meters, famous for their New Orleans sound. As the Rolling Stone obituary says, perhaps no song better summed up Art Neville's influence than \"Mardi Gras Mambo,\" which he recorded with The Hawketts when he was 16. Here it is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My pleasure."}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The new movie \"The Farewell\" starts by telling you that the film is based on an actual lie. My guest, Lulu Wang, drew on her own experiences to write and direct the film. Wang emigrated with her parents from China to the U.S. when she was 6. In 2013, her grandmother in China was diagnosed with stage 4 lung cancer and given three months to live. Family members in China decided not to tell her to shield the grandmother from the anxiety of knowing the end was near. Her parents agreed to withhold the information, but it was a decision that Wang found very upsetting. Here's how it plays out in the film. The parents tell Billi, the character based on Lulu Wang, that they're going to China to see her grandmother and celebrate the good news that Billi's cousin is getting married. Billi is confused by how somber her parents sound while talking about something that's supposed to be celebratory. So the parents confessed to her that the real reason for the trip is that her grandmother is dying.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 1, "text": "In real life, just as is in the film, Wang, her parents, uncle and cousin head to China to see her grandmother, knowing they may never see her again. But they keep up the pretext that it's a visit to celebrate the cousin's wedding. And, of course, things get more complicated than expected. While Wang was trying to get this film made, after getting rejected by producers in the U.S. and China, she told the story in the form of a personal essay on This American Life. That broadcast led producers who were interested in her story to reach out and help her make the film. Lulu Wang, welcome to FRESH AIR. And congratulations on the film.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Jian) Everyone thinks better if you don't. Look at you. You can hide your emotions. If you go, Nai Nai will find out right away."}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 2, "text": "When your parents told you that you couldn't tell your grandmother that she had stage 4 cancer and probably only had three months to live, what was your reaction?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 3, "text": "Not being able to say anything.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was shocked. It was a very confusing time because I was still grappling with my grief. And then to be given this other information, it was almost hard to decipher, what was the stronger emotion - th"}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 4, "text": "Did you eventually feel there was any wisdom in not telling her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, exactly. Exactly. And so there was a part of me that just - you know, my instinct was just to go to her, to call her, to cry with her and to, you know, have this catharsis. But then I'm told I ca"}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 5, "text": "Wait. So she's still alive 'cause she came to your set. Does she know that she has what was officially diagnosed as terminal lung cancer? Because, I mean, the movie's about her and about the diagnosis and about you guys not telling her. So she must be in on it now, unless you lied to her about what the movie's about", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I mean, the lie enabled me to spend time with her. And what I mean is the lie enabled me to make this movie, which enabled me to go back to her city and spend time with her, you know, and not alw"}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 6, "text": ". Maybe you did.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I mean, the lie enabled me to spend time with her. And what I mean is the lie enabled me to make this movie, which enabled me to go back to her city and spend time with her, you know, and not alw"}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 7, "text": "Oh, the joyous celebration part", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We did, in fact, lie to her about what the movie's about. My grandmother came to the production start party. And she met all of the actors and clearly saw that they were playing, you know, members of "}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 8, "text": ", yeah - and that's if it's a family coming together. There's going to be a wedding. But, you know, does she read film reviews?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We did, in fact, lie to her about what the movie's about. My grandmother came to the production start party. And she met all of the actors and clearly saw that they were playing, you know, members of "}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 9, "text": "Not even of her granddaughter's film? Because that would give it all away.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not really."}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 10, "text": "It kind of gives it away", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It would. And I've asked my great aunt - it's hard for me to know because my grandmother doesn't really leave the house now. And I don't know how much she's on, you know - Baudu is like the Chinese Go"}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It would. And I've asked my great aunt - it's hard for me to know because my grandmother doesn't really leave the house now. And I don't know how much she's on, you know - Baudu is like the Chinese Go"}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 12, "text": "I hate to put it this way, but this lie you were so reluctant to tell you've kind of compounded by making a movie all about the lie and lying to her about the movie", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, so we have not told her the title. And so my name in Chinese is different than my English name. So I'm not sure that she would think to go and search for it."}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, so we have not told her the title. And so my name in Chinese is different than my English name. So I'm not sure that she would think to go and search for it."}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 14, "text": "Forgive me for laughing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know. It's such..."}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 15, "text": "Did you also think that, by the time the film was finished, your grandmother would probably no longer be alive?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I know. And it's - you know, I started making this movie because it was a way for me to explore all of these complicated feelings that I had and explore these questions that I had about, what was "}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 16, "text": "Because of the prognosis?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 17, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Lulu Wang. She wrote and directed the new film \"The Farewell.\" We'll be right back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think that's absolutely what everyone was thinking, that, you know, why get ahead of ourselves when we don't know what her health is going to be like? And, you know, let's not preemptively rui"}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Lulu Wang. She wrote and directed the new film \"The Farewell,\" which is based on a true story of, a few years ago, when she and her family visited her grandmother in China because they'd gotten the news that her grandmother was dying and had stage 4 lung cancer, but no one in the family told the grandmother that. They kept the diagnosis from her to enable her to enjoy the rest of her life without the fear of death. So your grandmother fought in the Chinese Army when she was 14. What was - who was she fighting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think that's absolutely what everyone was thinking, that, you know, why get ahead of ourselves when we don't know what her health is going to be like? And, you know, let's not preemptively rui"}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 19, "text": "So this was during the Chinese Revolution?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was fighting on the side of the Communist Party against the Nationalists. And, you know, at the time, it was really just a way for her to escape an arranged marriage. Her family had arranged for h"}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 20, "text": "So your grandmother was 14, so she was basically a child soldier.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 21, "text": "And she got shot.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, mmm hmm."}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 22, "text": "Which apparently I'm doing as well.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think she actually got shot. You know, it's so funny because now I'm mixing fiction and nonfiction. I..."}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 23, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah. No, the bullet was something that, you know, I put in there for the sake of the movie. She does have a limp. I don't think it's from being shot. That's not to say she didn't get injured. B"}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 24, "text": "Well, gosh. I mean, she went against her family's wishes, defied an arranged marriage and joined the army instead. That's a heck of a story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know, across China."}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 25, "text": "So your mother was a writer for what I've read was the Chinese equivalent of The New Yorker, that she was a culture critic and editor at the Beijing Literary Gazette. And I always feel for people who move to another country where they don't speak the language when they move there, or they don't speak it that well yet, and they're a writer or speaker of some sort, and they're deprived of doing what they do to the degree that they do it in their native tongue because...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's what's so amazing about that generation. I'm sure you can, you know, go to China, go to the park and talk to any elderly person, and they would have an incredible story like"}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 26, "text": "You know, and so I'm wondering if you know what that was like for your mother, to be deprived of, you know, some of her greatest talent because she didn't have the language skills in English.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 27, "text": "Why did they come to America?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was incredibly difficult. You know, I was very, very young seeing that. But, you know, to be - you know, first of all, she was part of the Cultural Revolution. And so during the Cultural Revolution"}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 28, "text": "I understand. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, gosh, a lot of reasons - opportunity, you know, thinking there's a better future - but I think, honestly, first and foremost, government. You know, and I can't talk too much about it because..."}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 29, "text": "You have family there. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...My family doesn't want me to."}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 30, "text": "What's it like for you to hear the president's rhetoric about immigrants, knowing what your family went through to come here and what they gave up to come here and how skilled and how smart they were when they came here? And they ended up - you know, like your father at first was delivering pizzas to strip clubs. And your mother was treated disrespectfully at the work that she was doing, as if she was, you know, not smart at all, when she was, in fact, you know, a former editor at a important magazine in China.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. But I think mainly for political reasons."}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 31, "text": "You became a citizen, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's completely infuriating. You know, and it's hard because I'm - I try not to make it too political, you know, when I talk about my film. But, you know - but when I see what's happening, it's hard t"}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 32, "text": "So what part of your life disappeared when you came to the U.S.? Because you were 6, I think, when you came here?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, at a very young age when - you know, because I was under 18 when my parents became citizens, I became a citizen."}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 33, "text": "My guest is Lulu Wang. She wrote and directed the new film \"The Farewell.\" We'll talk more after a break. And rock critic Ken Tucker will review the first new album in 10 years by Buddy and Julie Miller. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I was 6 when I came here. And I remember my first day of school, you know, that I was in this classroom. And the - you know, they have the morning announcements in school. And so the TV was on. "}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 34, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Lulu Wang. She wrote and directed the new film \"The Farewell,\" which is based on her experience after her Chinese grandmother was diagnosed with stage 4 lung cancer and given three months to live. Wang and her parents emigrated from China to the U.S. when she was 6. After the diagnosis, her parents told her they were going to China to see Wang's grandmother, but no one in the family was going to tell the grandmother the diagnosis to spare her the pain of thinking about what lay ahead. Your story was told first as a \"This American Life\" piece because you tried to shop your movie idea - the same story, basically, but a fictionalized version - you tried to shop that to American producers and Chinese producers, and you kept getting turned down in both countries. Tell us some of the reasons why you were given - in both countries - about why this movie wouldn't work.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I was 6 when I came here. And I remember my first day of school, you know, that I was in this classroom. And the - you know, they have the morning announcements in school. And so the TV was on. "}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 35, "text": "She's the character based on you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think in both countries, people felt like the stakes weren't high enough. You know, an 80-year-old Chinese grandmother - what are the stakes? Whether you tell her or you don't tell her, she's "}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 36, "text": "You told your story as a personal essay. You told it as a fictionalized version in a film. What's the difference between telling - I mean, there are many differences. But tell us some of the most interesting differences for you in making this into a \"This American Life\"-length personal essay versus a feature film.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, Billi is the character based on me, who is an American going back to China, back to her home country and at odds with her family's decision to tell this lie."}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 37, "text": "The movie was shot in China and many of the actors in the film are Chinese, living in China, including the actress who plays the grandmother. It must be really hard to cast in another country where you're not that familiar with the actors. You know, like, you don't watch the Chinese TV shows. You don't know who the TV stars are. Not all Chinese movies come to the U.S. There's a lot of, like, movie actors who you don't know either. It must've been difficult for you to find the actress who plays the grandmother, who's really terrific in the film.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, the most interesting thing about telling it as a \"This American Life\" story is that because the show is considered journalism, everything was rooted in facts. And so we did fact-checks"}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 38, "text": "And she agreed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. We did work with a local casting director who would send us some things, but the other thing we underestimated was the rates that, you know, people would charge because over there, they're worki"}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 39, "text": "Oh,", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And she agreed. She said, well, I have grandchildren. You're - you know, you're the age of my grandson. How can I say no?"}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 40, "text": "that's interesting. It wasn't like, yeah, I can really use an audience in America. It was like, oh, you're like my grandchild.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And she agreed. She said, well, I have grandchildren. You're - you know, you're the age of my grandson. How can I say no?"}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 41, "text": "Well, she did a - she's great in the film.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it was incredibly personal for her. I said, you know, this is - you're playing my grandmother, basically. And I can't imagine anyone else doing it. I've been searching high and low, and you just"}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 42, "text": "Let's take a short break, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Lulu Wang. She wrote and directed the new film \"The Farewell.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 43, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Lulu Wang. She wrote and directed the new film \"The Farewell.\" It's based on her experience when her parents told her that her grandmother, who lives in China, was diagnosed with terminal lung cancer with three months left to live. But no one was telling her grandmother that. They wanted to spare her the news. So the family went to China under the pretext of celebrating her cousin's wedding. And the whole time they were there, they never divulged the secret that the grandmother had stage 4 terminal cancer. When you were starting out as a filmmaker, you started your own company, and the company that you had created videos for legal firms, for mediation and court cases. And I think that's just, like, fascinating. Like, I didn't even know such a thing existed. But tell us about the videos you had to make for these court cases and mediation cases.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 44, "text": "I have to say this sounds like fascinating work. Did you find it fascinating?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I was basically going to people's homes - you know, people who had been severely injured, people who, oftentimes, their injuries weren't visible to the eye, you know, which meant a lot of brain "}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 45, "text": "Another thing that strikes me as very interesting about this is that the things that people were - probably tried to hide from others - your most vulnerable aspects; your inability to do certain things, like remember where you put the eggs; the things you try to cover up for - those are the things you had to document. You had to come in and just watch people be at their most vulnerable so you could show it - you know, so that the lawyer could show it, you know, in court or, you know, during mediation. What did you learn about storytelling and about not shying away from vulnerability - you know, not being afraid of revealing vulnerability by doing this work? - 'cause showing vulnerability is such an important part of fiction and nonfiction storytelling.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. I found it very fascinating. It was very difficult, too, you know, because you meet somebody for, you know, 10 minutes, and then you're in their home and you're asking them to open up their "}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 46, "text": "Your film \"The Farewell\" ends with it saying on screen, a Lulu Wang film. What did it take to be able to put that on the film?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And what's interesting is that in real life, you know, when you're interviewing - like you said - a real person who's been through these things, they tend to not want to reveal their feelings. Y"}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 47, "text": "Lulu Wang, it's been great to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a good question. I actually struggled with it, you know, because I don't really believe - they call it a vanity title. I don't really believe in that. I - you know, I believe that films are - i"}
{"id": "744805282", "date": "2019-07-24", "guest": "Tzi Ma", "title": "Filmmaker Lulu Wang Based 'The Farewell' On Her Family's Real-Life Lie", "question_index": 48, "text": "Lulu Wang wrote and directed the new film \"The Farewell.\" After we take a short break, Ken Tucker will review the new folk-rock-country-blues album by Buddy and Julie Miller. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. Thank you so much for having me."}
{"id": "745232345", "date": "2019-07-25", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Journalist Jane Mayer On The 'Many Mysteries' In The Accusations Against Al Franken", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. In a new article in The New Yorker, titled \"The Case Of Al Franken,\" my guest Jane Mayer investigates the accusations of sexual misconduct that led Franken to resign under pressure from the Senate. She's found that the story told by Franken's chief accuser, Leeann Tweeden, is full of holes. Mayer also looked into the accusations against Franken made by seven other women who came forward after Tweeden. Three weeks after Tweeden's accusations, Franken resigned after being pressured by some of his fellow senators. Seven of those senators told Mayer they now regret having called for Franken's resignation. An eighth came forward after the article was published. Mayer is one of the leading journalists who's been reporting on sexual harassment and assault, from Anita Hill's accusation against Clarence Thomas to the accusations against Brett Kavanaugh. Last year, Mayer joined with Ronan Farrow to break the story of four women who accused New York's Attorney General Eric Schneiderman of physical abuse. Three hours after the story was published, Schneiderman resigned. During my interview with Mayer, we're going to hear a recording of Leeann Tweeden in which she talks about Al Franken's behavior when they did a USO tour together in 2006. And we'll hear an excerpt from my 2004 interview with Al Franken about the USO tour he'd just completed. Listening back to that interview now puts Tweeden's accusations in a different context. Jane Mayer, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Why did you want to write this piece, and why now?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "745232345", "date": "2019-07-25", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Journalist Jane Mayer On The 'Many Mysteries' In The Accusations Against Al Franken", "question_index": 1, "text": "So his main accuser, Leeann Tweeden, was on a USO tour in 2006. She made her accusations public in 2017. Can you sum up what her accusations are?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, both Al Franken and his central accuser, Leeann Tweeden, had called for independent investigations of their charges, and they never got them. So I was just interested in what you would find if y"}
{"id": "745232345", "date": "2019-07-25", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Journalist Jane Mayer On The 'Many Mysteries' In The Accusations Against Al Franken", "question_index": 2, "text": "OK. I want to play Leeann Tweeden, in her own words, describing a little bit of what happened. And later, we'll hear Al Franken describing a similar sketch that he did on an earlier tour. So this is Leeann Tweeden, recorded in November of 2017 on KABC in LA. This is the AM station that she was working on. So at this point, she's talking about how she and Franken were alone backstage, going over their lines one last time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They're sort of a twofold - two main parts of it. The first was that in 2006, on this USO tour, she acted in a skit with Al Franken and that he had written a skit just for her as a way of forcing her "}
{"id": "745232345", "date": "2019-07-25", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Journalist Jane Mayer On The 'Many Mysteries' In The Accusations Against Al Franken", "question_index": 3, "text": "OK. So that's an excerpt of what Leeann Tweeden said on her station KABC after she made her accusations public, and that was recorded in 2017. So Jane, when I heard Leeann Tweeden's accusations and when I saw the photo that she talked about, accusing Al Franken of touching her breasts - and by the way, in that photo, she's wearing a Kevlar vest, and his hands don't seem to be touching - all of it reminded me of a sketch. I mean, like, the photo seemed like a callback to a sketch that he told me about on the air in early 2004, just a couple of weeks after returning from a USO tour in Iraq and Afghanistan entertaining the troops. And he describes the sketch that I'm referring to in that interview. You quote an excerpt of that interview in your piece. I want to play a slightly longer version for our listeners so they can hear what Al Franken said about this sketch. And he is positioning this sketch, like, in the manner of the old Bob Hope USO tours in which, like, Bob Hope would always be surrounded by beautiful women, like cheerleaders and models and gorgeous actresses. And he'd make a lot of double entendre kind of sexual innuendo jokes, knowing that he had an audience of young men who were the troops in the audience. And these were always broadcast on TV, so everybody who grew up in the '50s and '60s saw these tours on TV. And I'm sure Franken was in the audience for those as well. So this was recorded in 2004 about the 2003 USO tour that he'd just come back from. Leeann Tweeden's tour - her USO tour with Al Franken - was a few years later in 2006.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's like, well, we need to practice the kissing scene. And I'm like, yeah, OK, whatever. And I just sort of blew him off because I didn't - like, we don't need to practice the kissing scene. It's jus"}
{"id": "745232345", "date": "2019-07-25", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Journalist Jane Mayer On The 'Many Mysteries' In The Accusations Against Al Franken", "question_index": 4, "text": "Well, what's your material like when you're doing - what was your material like for this latest USO tour?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I did a very kind of Bob Hope or Mighty Carson Art Players attack on the show. I did really dumb, stupid stuff. And there's a lot of sex and a lot of stuff about the military. And the USO kn"}
{"id": "745232345", "date": "2019-07-25", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Journalist Jane Mayer On The 'Many Mysteries' In The Accusations Against Al Franken", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So what we did was - again, we approached it sort of like a Bob Hope show. So what would happen is Karri would come out. And Karri Turner is an actress on \"JAG,\" a show that goes on armed forces' tele"}
{"id": "745232345", "date": "2019-07-25", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Journalist Jane Mayer On The 'Many Mysteries' In The Accusations Against Al Franken", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- and then my next line was, boy, this Army chow is not agreeing with me. You know, these - I've had five of these MREs. Those are meals ready to eat. I've had five of these MREs, and none of them see"}
{"id": "745232345", "date": "2019-07-25", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Journalist Jane Mayer On The 'Many Mysteries' In The Accusations Against Al Franken", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then I just do, like, but it's an honor to be here with Karri - nine seasons on \"JAG.\" And she goes, well, yeah. I said, well, you must have had a lot of - thousands of guest hosts on - or guest s"}
{"id": "745232345", "date": "2019-07-25", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Journalist Jane Mayer On The 'Many Mysteries' In The Accusations Against Al Franken", "question_index": 8, "text": "Oh, great. Oh, great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...For my - as an - you know, for \"JAG.\" And then it's just a piece in which I play a visiting prosecutor who's been sent to JAG ops by the Pentagon to shake things up - Lieutenant Lance Hargrove (ph)"}
{"id": "745232345", "date": "2019-07-25", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Journalist Jane Mayer On The 'Many Mysteries' In The Accusations Against Al Franken", "question_index": 9, "text": "Good.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...A little bit of it."}
{"id": "745232345", "date": "2019-07-25", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Journalist Jane Mayer On The 'Many Mysteries' In The Accusations Against Al Franken", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She goes - I gave her the script. I say, it's your line. She goes, Lieutenant Hargrove, what are you doing here in JAG ops? I told you, Harriet. Call me Lance. They laughed at that. Lieutenant Hargrov"}
{"id": "745232345", "date": "2019-07-25", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Journalist Jane Mayer On The 'Many Mysteries' In The Accusations Against Al Franken", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Who wants to help me out? And then we get a volunteer - you, soldier. And then I go, OK, I guess we're here to entertain the troops. And then they'd read the script again, and the soldier would kiss h"}
{"id": "745232345", "date": "2019-07-25", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Journalist Jane Mayer On The 'Many Mysteries' In The Accusations Against Al Franken", "question_index": 12, "text": "OK. So that was Al Franken on FRESH AIR, recorded in January of 2004. Leeann Tweeden's USO tour with him was several years later. That tour was in 2006. So this is three years before he toured with Leeann Tweeden. And I know some people listening will think, that was, like, really sexist sounding, and Terry's laughing so much. And so I'll cop to that. Yeah, I was laughing a lot. This was during the Iraq War in 2003. And I thought Al Franken was kind of, A, mocking himself, and B, doing some meta comedy about Bob Hope's sexist jokes on USO tours. Maybe that was a misreading of it. And now I'm also thinking about, well, I'm sure there were women who were in the military in the audience, too, during that. A lot of women were exposed to sexual harassment in the military. So maybe in that respect, too, these jokes might not have landed that well to the women in the audience. But I wasn't there. I don't know how it went over, though, online - 'cause there was a video of it - it seems to have played pretty well. There's a lot more to talk about, but we have to take a short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is New Yorker reporter Jane Mayer, and she has covered sexual harassment issues from Clarence Thomas to Brett Kavanaugh. Her new piece is called \"The Case Of Al Franken: A Close Look At The Accusations Against The Former Senator.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Lucky for you, Dr. Al Franken is here. And then Karri - and I'd approach her with my hands out. She'd go, Al, at ease. And I'd say, too late for that now. And she'd go, oh, get out of here, you know? "}
{"id": "745232345", "date": "2019-07-25", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Journalist Jane Mayer On The 'Many Mysteries' In The Accusations Against Al Franken", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Jane Mayer, who has a piece called \"The Case Of Al Franken: A Close Look At The Accusations Against The Former Senator\" in the current issue of The New Yorker. And this piece has gone viral. So Jane, you've heard Al Franken in 2003. You've heard Leeann Tweeden's comments about how she feels like she was sexually abused by him in 2006. So you say none of her accusations hold up. So run through some of her accusations that you checked out that don't hold up. Let's start with the sketch. Let's start with the connections between the accusations she's making and the jokes that Franken was trying to tell in the sketch.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Lucky for you, Dr. Al Franken is here. And then Karri - and I'd approach her with my hands out. She'd go, Al, at ease. And I'd say, too late for that now. And she'd go, oh, get out of here, you know? "}
{"id": "745232345", "date": "2019-07-25", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Journalist Jane Mayer On The 'Many Mysteries' In The Accusations Against Al Franken", "question_index": 14, "text": "My guest is Jane Mayer, a staff writer for The New Yorker. Her new article, \"The Case Of Al Franken,\" investigates the allegations against him of sexual misconduct. After a break, we'll talk about some of the things Al Franken told Mayer, and we'll discuss what Mayer learned about the allegations seven other women made against Al Franken after Leeann Tweeden came forward. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so I'm the reporter. I'm trying to figure out what happened here, and I'm doing my research as a reporter. And one of the things I do is click on an interview that Al Franken gave to you back in"}
{"id": "745232345", "date": "2019-07-25", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Journalist Jane Mayer On The 'Many Mysteries' In The Accusations Against Al Franken", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Jane Mayer about her article \"The Case of Al Franken\" published in the New Yorker. Mayer investigates the allegations against Franken of sexual misconduct that led him to resign from the Senate under pressure in 2017. Mayer found that the story told by his chief accuser Leeann Tweeden was full of holes. Tweeden is a conservative radio talk show host and former model who was with Franken on a USO tour in 2006 and performed in a sketch he wrote. She alleged that he wrote a new sketch that involved his character kissing her character, and that he wrote it just to have an excuse to kiss her. As a piece of evidence of his misconduct, she posted a now famous photo taken on a military plane during the tour, where she's asleep, dressed in a helmet, fatigues and a bulletproof vest, and he's standing over her with his hands above her breasts mugging for the camera with a comical, leering look on his face. But the photo appears to be a reference to a joke that was in the sketch. You interviewed Al Franken. How did he describe the photo in question to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so I'm the reporter. I'm trying to figure out what happened here, and I'm doing my research as a reporter. And one of the things I do is click on an interview that Al Franken gave to you back in"}
{"id": "745232345", "date": "2019-07-25", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Journalist Jane Mayer On The 'Many Mysteries' In The Accusations Against Al Franken", "question_index": 16, "text": "And did he see that picture as a callback to a joke in the sketch that they'd done together?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He actually feels really badly about that photo because he said she's asleep, it's always wrong to take a picture of someone asleep because they're not consenting. You know, it was something that he's"}
{"id": "745232345", "date": "2019-07-25", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Journalist Jane Mayer On The 'Many Mysteries' In The Accusations Against Al Franken", "question_index": 17, "text": "And just one other thing about the sketch. You know, Tweeden says that he did the rehearsal just as an excuse to kiss her. In this sketch, the actress in the sketch says, Al, you wrote this line just so you'd get to kiss me. So that accusation in a way has an odd echo with the actual sketch.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He did. I mean, you know, you can see it's exactly the same pose."}
{"id": "745232345", "date": "2019-07-25", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Journalist Jane Mayer On The 'Many Mysteries' In The Accusations Against Al Franken", "question_index": 18, "text": "You learned about how Leeann Tweeden made her accusations public. At the time, she was working at KABC-AM, where she's still working, but then she was co-hosting a morning show. You described the station at the time as a struggling conservative talk station, whose survival plan was to become the most pro-Trump station in LA. You say that people at the station helped her with the statement that she put on the website. How did they help her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, completely. I didn't - and it was - I had a hard time even figuring out how to write about this because it was - what you've got is a woman who played a part that Al Franken wrote in which she s"}
{"id": "745232345", "date": "2019-07-25", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Journalist Jane Mayer On The 'Many Mysteries' In The Accusations Against Al Franken", "question_index": 19, "text": "You mention in your piece that Tweeden was pro-Trump and was also a birther. Is that relevant to the story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so I interviewed them. And they worked through the details with her in meeting after meeting. And they had these sort of secret meetings where the news director, whose name was Nathan Baker, and"}
{"id": "745232345", "date": "2019-07-25", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Journalist Jane Mayer On The 'Many Mysteries' In The Accusations Against Al Franken", "question_index": 20, "text": "When KABC-AM, the radio station where Leeann Tweeden works and where she first posted her statement, when they posted her statement, her accusations against Franken, did it look like one woman's personal statement? Or did it look like a reported story that they were posting, like, you know, a reported news story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, I think, you know, everybody's political agendas are interesting to know. They - I think that in this case, you've got a woman who is very much a political opponent of Al Franken. She's "}
{"id": "745232345", "date": "2019-07-25", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Journalist Jane Mayer On The 'Many Mysteries' In The Accusations Against Al Franken", "question_index": 21, "text": "My guest is Jane Mayer, the New Yorker's chief Washington correspondent. Her new article is titled \"The Case of Al Franken.\" After a break, we'll talk about the accusations made by the seven other women who came forward after Leeann Tweeden and accused Al Franken of sexual misconduct. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, they put it out under the banner of the station. So it looked like a legitimate news story, which one would ordinarily think had been checked and that maybe they'd, you know, at least go"}
{"id": "745232345", "date": "2019-07-25", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Journalist Jane Mayer On The 'Many Mysteries' In The Accusations Against Al Franken", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jane Mayer, a staff writer for the New Yorker, whose new article is titled \"The Case of Al Franken.\" She investigated the allegations of sexual misconduct that led Franken to resign under pressure from the Senate in 2017. So after Leeann Tweeden made her accusations against Al Franken, seven other women came forward. Can you sum up their accusations?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, they put it out under the banner of the station. So it looked like a legitimate news story, which one would ordinarily think had been checked and that maybe they'd, you know, at least go"}
{"id": "745232345", "date": "2019-07-25", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Journalist Jane Mayer On The 'Many Mysteries' In The Accusations Against Al Franken", "question_index": 23, "text": "When you say weird, what do you mean by weird? Who's weird? Like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, you know, it's a big number. And it makes it pretty hard to imagine that Al Franken did nothing. You know, as a reporter looking at this, a lot of what reporting on sexual harassment com"}
{"id": "745232345", "date": "2019-07-25", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Journalist Jane Mayer On The 'Many Mysteries' In The Accusations Against Al Franken", "question_index": 24, "text": "And what were some the insights you got from these interviews?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I just, you know, I - it - I think this came down to kind of a close look at a subject that we as a culture are grappling with right now, which is sort of the politics of touching. You know, are"}
{"id": "745232345", "date": "2019-07-25", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Journalist Jane Mayer On The 'Many Mysteries' In The Accusations Against Al Franken", "question_index": 25, "text": "My guest is Jane Mayer, The New Yorker's chief Washington correspondent. Her new article is titled \"The Case Of Al Franken.\" We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have to say the one time I ever met him, I was on Air America on the radio show that he used to host. And I don't remember too much about it except that he seemed quite gruff in terms of his persona"}
{"id": "745232345", "date": "2019-07-25", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Journalist Jane Mayer On The 'Many Mysteries' In The Accusations Against Al Franken", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jane Mayer. She's a staff writer for The New Yorker. Her new article is titled \"The Case Of Al Franken.\" She investigated the allegations of sexual misconduct that led him to resign under pressure from the Senate in 2017. Franken hoped to get a hearing before the Senate Ethics Committee. That never happened. Why didn't the Democrats pursue that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have to say the one time I ever met him, I was on Air America on the radio show that he used to host. And I don't remember too much about it except that he seemed quite gruff in terms of his persona"}
{"id": "745232345", "date": "2019-07-25", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Journalist Jane Mayer On The 'Many Mysteries' In The Accusations Against Al Franken", "question_index": 27, "text": "And then Schumer asked Franken to resign, and you described that scene from Franken's point of view 'cause he told you about it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in the beginning, they said they would do so. But as each allegation broke in the news against Al Franken and they started to pile up, there was a lot of pressure put on the Democrats in the Sen"}
{"id": "745232345", "date": "2019-07-25", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Journalist Jane Mayer On The 'Many Mysteries' In The Accusations Against Al Franken", "question_index": 28, "text": "So Franken's strategy was to not spend a lot of time fighting back in public, but to rather wait for an ethics committee in which he could present, you know, witnesses and, you know, people who would corroborate his story and also explain the context of what happened. But then he was denied the ethics committee, and then he seemed to disappear afterwards.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And I also spoke with Schumer's staff about it and got a statement from Schumer about it, so we've got both sides of that story too. And I spoke with the women senators. You'll see that Kristen"}
{"id": "745232345", "date": "2019-07-25", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Journalist Jane Mayer On The 'Many Mysteries' In The Accusations Against Al Franken", "question_index": 29, "text": "So Jane, you've reported so many sexual harassment and sexual assault stories, dating back to the Clarence Thomas hearings. What's the moral of the story regarding the Al Franken case? Where does that fit in in the #MeToo movement in your judgment?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He did. I mean, and to give the other side of his disappearance and - you know, that he didn't get the ethics committee hearing - I mean, people do point out - and, I think, fairly - that if Al Franke"}
{"id": "745232345", "date": "2019-07-25", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Journalist Jane Mayer On The 'Many Mysteries' In The Accusations Against Al Franken", "question_index": 30, "text": "Jane Mayer, thank you so much for talking with us, and thank you for your reporting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I talked to a number of incredibly smart feminists about how they saw it, and they're quoted in this story trying to evaluate it, too. And I end the story with a quote from Debra Katz, who was the law"}
{"id": "745232345", "date": "2019-07-25", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Journalist Jane Mayer On The 'Many Mysteries' In The Accusations Against Al Franken", "question_index": 31, "text": "Jane Mayer is a staff writer for The New Yorker. Her new article is titled \"The Case Of Al Franken.\" If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, like our interview about heart disease and new ways of treating it or our interview about sleep disorders, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My pleasure. It's great to be with you."}
{"id": "745232345", "date": "2019-07-25", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Journalist Jane Mayer On The 'Many Mysteries' In The Accusations Against Al Franken", "question_index": 32, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Mooj Zadie and Seth Kelley. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My pleasure. It's great to be with you."}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 0, "text": "Clay Ross, Quiana Parler, Charlton Singleton, welcome to FRESH AIR. It is such a pleasure to have you here. And thank you for bringing your instruments.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Shoo lie loo. Shoo lie loo. Shoo lie loo. Shoo lie loo. Shoo lie loo. Shoo lie loo. Shoo lie loo. Shoo lie loo. Just in the kitchen. Shoo lie loo. With a handful of biscuits. Shoo lie loo. We're Ranky"}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 1, "text": "My pleasure. So, Clay, you organized the band. It was your idea to do this band playing songs from Gullah culture.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having us."}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 2, "text": "But you are not from that culture.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, ma'am."}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 3, "text": "You grew up in Piedmont, N.C.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, ma'am."}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 4, "text": "You moved to Charleston, S.C., for college. I should also mention you're white. You're the white member of the band.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I'm not. Yeah, it's a little bit..."}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 5, "text": "So how come you're the one who started the band?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm white? What? Are you - no, I am white. You got me."}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 6, "text": "OK, let me stop you there. So, Charlton, when Clay was bugging you to do Gullah music, what was your reaction?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And they became..."}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 7, "text": "Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, at first, back then, what he's talking about now, he was just trying to learn how to play jazz."}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 8, "text": "So, Quiana, you didn't grow up with Gullah culture either, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, think about it. Think about it. I mean, just - that's how we grew up, so it was every day. So, you know, you just - after a while, you figure, you know, everybody knows it or that's just"}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 9, "text": "Yeah, you mentioned the kids games. And a couple of the songs on your new \"Ranky Tanky\" album have kids' rhymes in them that are very rhythmic.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, but there are also little kids' games and things like that. But that's part of the culture. It's all wrapped up in that Gullah culture."}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 10, "text": "And so can you talk about and maybe sing a few of those rhymes and tell us how they figure into the music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 11, "text": "Oh, great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) One-ry, two-ry, dicker-y seven. Halli-boo, crack-iboo, 10, 11. Pee, po, must be done. Twinkle, twangle, 21. One saw, two saw, ziggy-zaw-zoe. Bobtail dominicker, deedle daw doe. Hail 'em, sca"}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 12, "text": "That's the title track of the album \"Ranky Tanky.\" Three of the members of the band Ranky Tanky are my guests - Clay Ross, who's a guitarist and singer, Quiana Parler, who's the main singer of the group, and Charlton Singleton, who's the trumpeter and also singer. So tell us about the rhymes in \"Ranky Tanky.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Who is the greatest? We are the greatest. Are you sure? Yeah. Positive? Yeah. Definitive? Yeah. All right. All right. Old lady come from Booster, had two hens and a rooster. The rooster died"}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 13, "text": "OK. So we're talking about how Gullah music has rhythms that are maybe a little different from what you were used to playing in bands. Though Charlton, this music was always a part of your life. But as the trumpeter, Charlton, is there anything unique to what you're doing on trumpet that is different when you're playing music from the Gullah tradition than when you're playing in a jazz band?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So if you listen to the lyrics of the song where it says, old lady come from Booster, had two hens and a rooster. The rooster died. The old lady cried. Now she don't eat eggs like she used to. Now, im"}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 14, "text": "Not much, huh?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not too..."}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 15, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not too..."}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 16, "text": "I'll tell you what. Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more, and we'll hear some music. If you're just joining us, my guests are three of the members of the band Ranky Tanky, which plays music from the Gullah tradition but in a contemporary setting. My guests are Clay Ross, who's a guitarist and singer, Quiana Parler, who's the main singer with the band, and Charlton Singleton, who is a trumpeter and singer. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Different. Not - it's not - it's not that terribly different. I grew up - you know, my first music lesson I can recall - or at least that I think it was my first music lesson - was actually from my"}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. My guests are trumpeter Charlton Singleton, guitarist Clay Ross and singer Quiana Parler, three members of the band Ranky Tanky, which plays contemporary versions of music from the Gullah culture of the South Carolina coast and Sea Islands. Their debut album is called \"Ranky Tanky.\" When we left off, we were talking about Gullah rhythms. Clay, did you have to adapt to that rhythm playing guitar with Ranky Tanky?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Different. Not - it's not - it's not that terribly different. I grew up - you know, my first music lesson I can recall - or at least that I think it was my first music lesson - was actually from my"}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 18, "text": "Maybe you can play some of the Brazilian music...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, that's a good question. You know, I think that the - coming back to this project after years of doing other kinds of music was really the only way that it would've worked. And so a lot of th"}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 19, "text": "...Brazilian rhythms that you play and compare that to what you're doing with Ranky Tanky.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yeah, I hear that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Let me give you an example. So there's, like, a forro rhythm, like, a - (playing guitar, singing in Portuguese). And this rhythm is the same rhythm that I use a lot in Ranky Tanky. So I got - (s"}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 21, "text": "So, Quiana, when you were introduced to Gullah music through joining this band, what's an example of a song that you fell in love with that you had not heard before?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of our interview and performance with three members of the band Ranky Tanky. The band plays contemporary versions of music fr"}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 22, "text": "I'll stop you right there because I love your version of \"O Death.\" Would you be willing to sing it for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I do. Clay..."}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 23, "text": "And does anybody know the lineage of the song? Like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, no problem."}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 24, "text": "...Because I've heard it sung in other traditions, too. I've heard it just as, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know..."}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 25, "text": "Like, a Southern Appalachian song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's such a good question, and..."}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 26, "text": "Exactly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, and I - well, yeah, like Ralph Stanley's, you know..."}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 27, "text": "Please sing it for us. It's so beautiful, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, one thing that's very - I guess in an African American church, we celebrate death. You know, you're home going. It's a celebration because you're going to meet Jesus. But we also ask, can yo"}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 28, "text": "Oh, gosh, that sounds so great. That's Quiana Parler singing - Clay Ross on guitar, Charlton Singleton, trumpet. What kind of songs, Quiana, did you sing in church?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Oh, Death walked up to the sinner gate, said believed you have waited now a little too late. Your fever is well past 102, a narrow chance that you'll ever pull through. Cried, oh, Death. Oh,"}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 29, "text": "Well, apparently everybody knew you had a great voice when you were very young because I know when you were 8, you started taking singing lessons with an opera singer. What do you learn when you're 8 and taking singing lessons?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 30, "text": "Charlton, you actually grew up in Gullah culture. Your grandfather is from one of the Sea Islands off the South Carolina coast.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I didn't realize how much I learned until this band. You know, she was a Metropolitan Opera singer by the name of June Bonner. And I utilized so much of what she's taught me now. And that's "}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 31, "text": "There's a song on the album called \"Watch That Star\" that you have a personal connection to through your grandfather. I'm going to ask you to do that song. But before that, I want to hear the story behind the song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 32, "text": "Quiana, can you sing the Ranky Tanky version of \"Watch That Star\" - just a verse or two of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Big Daddy, as he was affectionately called, when he was a young man, and he was seeking the Lord, he told us - his kids, you know, my father, my aunts and uncles and everybody else, all the gran"}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 33, "text": "Aw, that's beautiful. Thank you so much for doing that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) The day has passed and gone. The evening shades are pinned. All my way, I remember well the night of death is near. Watch that star. See how it runs. Watch that star. See how it runs. If the"}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 34, "text": "Your harmony's so great together. Did you automatically know how to harmonize with each other? Or did you have to, like, work it out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 35, "text": "Well, a - and I imagine a lot of people say, what's a trumpet doing playing Gullah music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In your contemporary way - yeah, you youngsters, you young kids out there."}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 36, "text": "Why don't we take a short break here? And then we'll be right back and hear more music. If you're just joining us, my guests are three members of the band Ranky Tanky, which plays contemporary versions of Gullah music, music from the Georgia and South Carolina Sea Islands. My guests are Clay Ross, who's a guitarist and singer, Quiana Parler, who is the group's main singer, and Charlton Singleton, who's a trumpeter and singer. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. You know, because - you know, like Quiana said, it was just hand claps and you stomping your feet, and that was the music - your voice, your hands and your feet."}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 37, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guests are three members of the band Ranky Tanky. They're a band that plays music from the Gullah culture, the culture of the islands off the coast of South Carolina and Georgia. This is Gullah music but in a really contemporary setting - with trumpet, which is played by my guest, Charlton Singleton, guitar played by my guest Clay Ross. And Quiana Parler is the main singer with the band. She's also with us. Charlton, since you grew up in South Carolina and your grandfather was from one of the Sea Islands - I think you said that he moved to the mainland because of a hurricane - did hurricanes figure a lot in family lore?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. You know, because - you know, like Quiana said, it was just hand claps and you stomping your feet, and that was the music - your voice, your hands and your feet."}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 38, "text": "Where you grew up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Been In The Storm\" - when - you know, I get chills every time I hear Quiana sing \"Been In The Storm,\" which is on our album. And, you know, it's just - it's a powerful song. But yeah, when my grandfa"}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 39, "text": "So since you mentioned \"Been In The Storm,\" Quiana, would you sing a little bit of it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Where - that's where I grew up, yeah, and..."}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 40, "text": "Thank you. Songs like that that you just sang and songs like \"O Death\" that you sang for us earlier - those are just, like, emotionally devastating songs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right. (Singing) I've been in the storm so long. You know that I, I've been in the storm so long. I'm crying, oh, Lord. Give me more time to pray. You know I've been in the storm so very long."}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 41, "text": "What...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 42, "text": "What goes through your mind or your body as you sing songs like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very."}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 43, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I just lost it. Like, it was just - no, that - it was \"That's Alright,\" which is about death as well. And it was suddenly that we lost her, and it was just so hard. It was one time I could not be "}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 44, "text": "You know, just to change subjects just a little bit, Charlton, you've been playing in the studio today. You've been using a mute. And the mute that you're using is actually, I think, a plunger, right? Is it...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think sometimes bringing - these songs, they bring peoples in touch and so close to pain and their suffering that is just the common thread of all humanity. And everybody deals with that in one way "}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 45, "text": "Is it a sink plunger or a toilet plunger?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is, yes."}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 46, "text": "OK. I love mutes. Can you do some fancy mute thing for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is for a sink. For a trumpet and the size of the bell that I have, yes, a sink plunger is the best fit. If you see a trombonist, they would have one that was the size for a toilet."}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 47, "text": "Great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right. (Playing muted trumpet)."}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 48, "text": ". It has been so great to speak with the three of you and to hear you sing and play. I'm really grateful, and I want to thank you so much. And before you go, you have to tell us, what does Ranky Tanky mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right. (Playing muted trumpet)."}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 49, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ranky Tanky means get funky."}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 50, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It means get funky. Yeah. Shake it."}
{"id": "745583378", "date": "2019-07-26", "guest": "Ranky Tanky", "title": "Ranky Tanky Builds On The Music And Culture Of Slave Descendants", "question_index": 51, "text": "And Ranky Tanky is the name of the band. So Clay Ross, Quiana Parler, Charlton Singleton, thank you all so much. And good luck to you and the band. It's been great to have you here.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She's like, OK."}
{"id": "747476419", "date": "2019-08-02", "guest": "Paul Nicklen", "title": "Polar Photographer Shares His View Of A Ferocious But Fragile Ecosystem", "question_index": 0, "text": "Paul Nicklen, welcome to FRESH AIR. One of your most famous photos has to do with melting in Svalbard. This is a photo that Al Gore has used to illustrate the changes caused by climate change. And it's basically like a glacier that's become a waterfall because of melting ice.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies in for Terry Gross. According to the U.S. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, June was the planet's hottest month on record. Today we're going to listen"}
{"id": "747476419", "date": "2019-08-02", "guest": "Paul Nicklen", "title": "Polar Photographer Shares His View Of A Ferocious But Fragile Ecosystem", "question_index": 1, "text": "Now, you mentioned the photograph that you took in 2014 of a dead polar bear, and you'd found two dead polar bears on that trip. How does that connect to climate change?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. It is one of my favorite images. You know, we were working in Svalbard photographing. It was a really traumatic day because we had been photographing polar bears and traveling around Svalb"}
{"id": "747476419", "date": "2019-08-02", "guest": "Paul Nicklen", "title": "Polar Photographer Shares His View Of A Ferocious But Fragile Ecosystem", "question_index": 2, "text": "You have a photo that I think is pretty recent of a mother polar bear and her cub stranded on a small piece of glacier ice. Would you describe the photo and tell us how you interpret it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, for me, it's, you know, and I was - I was a biologist. I worked on polar bears throughout the Arctic and helped, you know, look at population dynamics and movement patterns. And, you know, in "}
{"id": "747476419", "date": "2019-08-02", "guest": "Paul Nicklen", "title": "Polar Photographer Shares His View Of A Ferocious But Fragile Ecosystem", "question_index": 3, "text": "So polar bears have a very special place in your work and in your life. Like, what's their importance to you personally?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, absolutely. So that's a very good point. And when you say, you know, people see bears standing on ice and they think they're fine. But in this case, for me, it was very important to put that pho"}
{"id": "747476419", "date": "2019-08-02", "guest": "Paul Nicklen", "title": "Polar Photographer Shares His View Of A Ferocious But Fragile Ecosystem", "question_index": 4, "text": "Have you seen penguins who are dying because of the loss of sea ice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the fact that having grown up in the high Arctic with the Inuit as a kid and just spending so much time throughout my life with bears. You know, I've seen probably - if I had to guess - over 2"}
{"id": "747476419", "date": "2019-08-02", "guest": "Paul Nicklen", "title": "Polar Photographer Shares His View Of A Ferocious But Fragile Ecosystem", "question_index": 5, "text": "So you photograph, like, many, many polar bears. And you've seen about 2,000 of them. And I think it's easy for people, in some ways, to relate to polar bears because they're just so impressive and attractive looking. But you also spend a lot of time photographing creatures that, you know, aren't going to be like, you know, cute or impressive like that by people's standards, you know? So I'm thinking here of, like, the narwhal, which is - let me ask you to describe what a narwhal is.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. And we're listening to the interview Terry Gross recorded in 2017 with Paul Nicklen, a photographer who documents the effects of climate change in the Arctic and Antarctic regions."}
{"id": "747476419", "date": "2019-08-02", "guest": "Paul Nicklen", "title": "Polar Photographer Shares His View Of A Ferocious But Fragile Ecosystem", "question_index": 6, "text": "So these are like whales with an ivory spear attached to its head?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's just funny that we're so in love with unicorns - you know, the horse with a tusk. And all of a sudden, there really is a unicorn out there. It just happens to be in - something so much more amazi"}
{"id": "747476419", "date": "2019-08-02", "guest": "Paul Nicklen", "title": "Polar Photographer Shares His View Of A Ferocious But Fragile Ecosystem", "question_index": 7, "text": "So you've taken a lot of photographs of narwhals. But it took you years to find them. Why was it hard?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's basically a beluga whale that's got this gray-ish speckled color that has - yeah - a long, long ivory task, you know. It's up to 11 feet."}
{"id": "747476419", "date": "2019-08-02", "guest": "Paul Nicklen", "title": "Polar Photographer Shares His View Of A Ferocious But Fragile Ecosystem", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Narwhals are extremely difficult to photograph. Very few people - you know, Flip Nicklin, who was my original mentor, has seen them underwater and photographed males. It's just very rare, you know. Yo"}
{"id": "747476419", "date": "2019-08-02", "guest": "Paul Nicklen", "title": "Polar Photographer Shares His View Of A Ferocious But Fragile Ecosystem", "question_index": 9, "text": "Thousands of them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We had Inuit hunters go out with sleds and pick up this new engine. And we installed the new engine, and it, too, had some problems. But finally, on the last two days of the project, we were - nobody "}
{"id": "747476419", "date": "2019-08-02", "guest": "Paul Nicklen", "title": "Polar Photographer Shares His View Of A Ferocious But Fragile Ecosystem", "question_index": 10, "text": "Were you worried about their 12-foot ivory tusks?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thousands. And we landed on the ice. And we landed on a pan of ice right next to a mother and her cub polar bear, got out. And there were just narwhals absolutely everywhere. And I was so excited. I k"}
{"id": "747476419", "date": "2019-08-02", "guest": "Paul Nicklen", "title": "Polar Photographer Shares His View Of A Ferocious But Fragile Ecosystem", "question_index": 11, "text": "Well, is this something you think about a lot - that you want your death to be cool?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. It's funny. You know, I've never ever worried about the tusk at all. It's so funny because I'm so in love with what I do. And, you know, just to be able to see narwhals approaching me underwater. "}
{"id": "747476419", "date": "2019-08-02", "guest": "Paul Nicklen", "title": "Polar Photographer Shares His View Of A Ferocious But Fragile Ecosystem", "question_index": 12, "text": "So I want to get back to those tusks for a second. What function do they serve? Are they a defense mechanism or like a really large toothpick with which to spear what they want to eat?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I just don't want it to be uncool. You know, I don't want to do something stupid and - and, you know, step out of a car in front of a bus in New York because I wasn't paying attention and get run "}
{"id": "747476419", "date": "2019-08-02", "guest": "Paul Nicklen", "title": "Polar Photographer Shares His View Of A Ferocious But Fragile Ecosystem", "question_index": 13, "text": "So you mentioned that in looking for the narwhals, you fell through the ice. Would you describe what it's like to fall through Arctic ice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, there are a whole bunch of theories that have come out. And it's actually a very heated, sensitive topic. If there was so much benefit to a tusk, then I think, you know, obviously females wo"}
{"id": "747476419", "date": "2019-08-02", "guest": "Paul Nicklen", "title": "Polar Photographer Shares His View Of A Ferocious But Fragile Ecosystem", "question_index": 14, "text": "So we've been talking about your photography in the Arctic. Let's switch to Antarctica, where you've also done a lot of photography. And among...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies in for Terry Gross. June was the hottest month on record for the planet, and we're listening to the interview Terry recorded in 2017 with photographer Paul Nicklen, "}
{"id": "747476419", "date": "2019-08-02", "guest": "Paul Nicklen", "title": "Polar Photographer Shares His View Of A Ferocious But Fragile Ecosystem", "question_index": 15, "text": "...The sea animals that you photographed there is the leopard seal. Would you describe the leopard seal?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "747476419", "date": "2019-08-02", "guest": "Paul Nicklen", "title": "Polar Photographer Shares His View Of A Ferocious But Fragile Ecosystem", "question_index": 16, "text": "So you wanted to photograph them. And you got your chance when one started banging against your boat in a kind of threatening way. Would you describe the circumstance that led to you getting in the water?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know what? Leopard seals are fascinating to look at. They're 12 feet long. You know, it was a really big one, a thousand pounds. They have this serpentine-like body. They're very lean and slender."}
{"id": "747476419", "date": "2019-08-02", "guest": "Paul Nicklen", "title": "Polar Photographer Shares His View Of A Ferocious But Fragile Ecosystem", "question_index": 17, "text": "And at some point, it started feeding you penguins.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I wanted to go to Antarctica and get to know as many leopard seals as I could, to give them a fair shake. I never really think animals are vicious or out to get humans, or - and so I worked with"}
{"id": "747476419", "date": "2019-08-02", "guest": "Paul Nicklen", "title": "Polar Photographer Shares His View Of A Ferocious But Fragile Ecosystem", "question_index": 18, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I wanted to go to Antarctica and get to know as many leopard seals as I could, to give them a fair shake. I never really think animals are vicious or out to get humans, or - and so I worked with"}
{"id": "747476419", "date": "2019-08-02", "guest": "Paul Nicklen", "title": "Polar Photographer Shares His View Of A Ferocious But Fragile Ecosystem", "question_index": 19, "text": "...You have a great picture of this leopard seal with half a penguin in its mouth, like the bottom half, like the feet and the torso, coming at you to offer you a piece of penguin. It's such a crazy picture.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "747476419", "date": "2019-08-02", "guest": "Paul Nicklen", "title": "Polar Photographer Shares His View Of A Ferocious But Fragile Ecosystem", "question_index": 20, "text": "So it sounds like you were kind of falling in love with this leopard seal. Do you feel like you learned something that other people didn't know about leopard seals?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it was an incredible situation. And, you know, this leopard seal stayed with me for four days straight. And every time I would show up on the water, she'd be there to greet me. She would follow "}
{"id": "747476419", "date": "2019-08-02", "guest": "Paul Nicklen", "title": "Polar Photographer Shares His View Of A Ferocious But Fragile Ecosystem", "question_index": 21, "text": "Here's a paradox. Like, you fell in love with this leopard seal who feeds on penguins and keeps giving you penguins as an offering. But you love penguins, too. And you have some beautiful pictures of penguins. My favorite is a picture of a mother and father penguin with their beaks touching, and the outline of their bodies kind of form, like, a heart. And in between them is, like, a baby penguin - like, their baby penguin. And it's such a really beautiful photo. So what's it like for you to fall in love with both the predator and prey?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR, and we're listening to the interview Terry recorded two years ago with Paul Nicklen. He's a photographer who documents the effects of climate change in the polar regions."}
{"id": "747476419", "date": "2019-08-02", "guest": "Paul Nicklen", "title": "Polar Photographer Shares His View Of A Ferocious But Fragile Ecosystem", "question_index": 22, "text": "So I want to ask you about another sea creature. And one of these creatures nearly killed you. And this is the elephant seal. And you were filming elephant seals underwater. And you ended up kind of in the mouth of one of them. Would you describe what happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a great, great question, Terry. And when you watch leopard seals, they play with their food. It's like this coldhearted, emotionless reaction that they have to their food. They don't mind tortu"}
{"id": "747476419", "date": "2019-08-02", "guest": "Paul Nicklen", "title": "Polar Photographer Shares His View Of A Ferocious But Fragile Ecosystem", "question_index": 23, "text": "Did that change your approach to working underwater at all?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, sure. It was really, you know, a traumatic moment. And it was very much 100% my fault. And it's - when you watch elephant seals, they weigh up to 8,000 or 9,000 pounds. They're 18 feet long. You"}
{"id": "747476419", "date": "2019-08-02", "guest": "Paul Nicklen", "title": "Polar Photographer Shares His View Of A Ferocious But Fragile Ecosystem", "question_index": 24, "text": "Well, that's an interesting paradox that you just mentioned. I mean, you're in the water with predators, so your gut would be telling you, don't do that. But at the same time, that's your work to do that. But if you turn off your gut, you will not pick up on signals that you really should be picking up on - you know, really dangerous possibilities.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not really. I mean, this is - maybe doesn't make me sound too bright. But I mean, I got in the water with other elephant seal males - again, that project. But I would really - started to - I don't thi"}
{"id": "747476419", "date": "2019-08-02", "guest": "Paul Nicklen", "title": "Polar Photographer Shares His View Of A Ferocious But Fragile Ecosystem", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well, thank you so much for going to the places that most of us will never be able to get to and bringing back images from there. Thank you for your work.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I get so caught up in how important these stories are and how, you know, my images are going to have that three-dimensional feel to them to really bring people into the issues I care about. An"}
{"id": "747605189", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "Rodney Evans", "title": "'Vision Portraits' Filmmaker Wanted To Chronicle Other Artists Who Are Blind", "question_index": 0, "text": "Before we begin, I want to add our voices to the many who have expressed their horror, outrage, sadness and grief over this weekend's two massacres. We send our sympathies to the family and friends of those who were killed and our wishes for a good recovery to those who were wounded. And now I'll introduce today's guest, filmmaker Rodney Evans. After he started losing his eyesight when he was in his 20s, Evans wanted to continue making movies, and he still has enough sight left to enable him to do that. He wanted to know what it was like for other artists who have lost much or all of their vision, and he wanted their advice. That led to his new documentary, \"Vision Portraits.\" It tells his story and the stories of three other blind or partially sighted artists - a photographer, a dancer and a writer. Evans says all the artists in the film are deeply influenced and motivated by the power of art to heal and transform. Evans also wrote and directed the film \"Brother To Brother,\" which won the Special Grand Jury Prize at the 2004 Sundance Film Festival. It starred Anthony Mackie as a young gay man who meets an older gay man who was part of a circle of artists and writers during the Harlem Renaissance. Evans is now working on a film dramatizing the life of composer and pianist Billy Strayhorn, who worked with Duke Ellington for most of his career. Rodney Evans, welcome to FRESH AIR. I think a lot of our audience will be wondering, how can you make movies if you can hardly see? So let's start with what can you see? How much vision remains?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "747605189", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "Rodney Evans", "title": "'Vision Portraits' Filmmaker Wanted To Chronicle Other Artists Who Are Blind", "question_index": 1, "text": "A telescope, but without the magnification.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have about 9% vision in one eye and 8% in the other eye. And it fluctuates. So sometimes that goes up, and sometimes that goes down. But in general, it's about 20% percent of vision. But it is very "}
{"id": "747605189", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "Rodney Evans", "title": "'Vision Portraits' Filmmaker Wanted To Chronicle Other Artists Who Are Blind", "question_index": 2, "text": "So let's talk about how you direct a film with your limited eyesight. How do you see who you're directing? How close are you to the shot that you're framing, or are you watching on a monitor?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "747605189", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "Rodney Evans", "title": "'Vision Portraits' Filmmaker Wanted To Chronicle Other Artists Who Are Blind", "question_index": 3, "text": "Why did you want to make a film about other visually impaired artists who've continued to do their work?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". You know? There are just certain things that are not visible to me. So I'm literally, like, zeroed in on what is going on on the actors' faces, and where they are emotionally and where they need to "}
{"id": "747605189", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "Rodney Evans", "title": "'Vision Portraits' Filmmaker Wanted To Chronicle Other Artists Who Are Blind", "question_index": 4, "text": "John Dugdale - can I call him blind? Is that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because I was terrified, frankly, about losing my vision and whether or not I would be able to continue creating films and doing this art form that I was really passionate about. So, you know, I just "}
{"id": "747605189", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "Rodney Evans", "title": "'Vision Portraits' Filmmaker Wanted To Chronicle Other Artists Who Are Blind", "question_index": 5, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. He prefers to be called blind."}
{"id": "747605189", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "Rodney Evans", "title": "'Vision Portraits' Filmmaker Wanted To Chronicle Other Artists Who Are Blind", "question_index": 6, "text": "OK. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "747605189", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "Rodney Evans", "title": "'Vision Portraits' Filmmaker Wanted To Chronicle Other Artists Who Are Blind", "question_index": 7, "text": "So something else that John Dugdale, the blind photographer, told you is that since he had vision and then lost it after he'd got AIDS and had a stroke that he still has all this, like, visual memory, and he's able to see things in his mind even though he can't see them with his eyes. And he actually says to you that the last time he saw the world was in 1994, and if he got his sight back now, he'd probably throw up, he said. He said so much has changed. He hasn't seen friends and family get older. And I can't say I've ever thought of it that way, that if you lose your sight and then years go by, the people who you know, you're close to - friends, family, partners - like, you don't know how they've aged. You can't see it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "747605189", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "Rodney Evans", "title": "'Vision Portraits' Filmmaker Wanted To Chronicle Other Artists Who Are Blind", "question_index": 8, "text": "Did that make you think a lot, to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "747605189", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "Rodney Evans", "title": "'Vision Portraits' Filmmaker Wanted To Chronicle Other Artists Who Are Blind", "question_index": 9, "text": "I think you didn't initially plan to include yourself in the movie; you were just going to do it about other people who are blind or partially sighted. Why didn't you want to include yourself and why did you decide, well, you will include yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No one's aging. Everyone is in peak form. And he's remembering them like that. You know? So for him it really is this pristine condition that he remembers all of his friends in, and so he hasn't seen "}
{"id": "747605189", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "Rodney Evans", "title": "'Vision Portraits' Filmmaker Wanted To Chronicle Other Artists Who Are Blind", "question_index": 10, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is filmmaker Rodney Evans. And he directed the new documentary \"Vision Portraits,\" about four people, including himself, who are vision impaired or blind and have continued to pursue their art, including filmmaking in his case, photography, dance or writing in the cases of the other three vision impaired artists. The film is called \"Vision Portraits.\" We'll be right back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's an interesting question. You know, I - initially, I thought of myself as a framing device, that I would talk about my condition and my fears around losing my vision and continuing to work as a "}
{"id": "747605189", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "Rodney Evans", "title": "'Vision Portraits' Filmmaker Wanted To Chronicle Other Artists Who Are Blind", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is filmmaker Rodney Evans. His new film is a documentary called \"Vision Portraits,\" and it's about vision impaired artists or blind artists who've continued to pursue their art. In Rodney Evans' case, he has a genetic, a rare genetic eye disorder, so he has only a small percentage of his vision and has no peripheral vision. But he continues to make movies. He also talks to a writer who is now blind and continues to write, a photographer who lost his vision and continues to take photos and a dancer who's partially sighted and continues to dance. Did you initially think, I have to give up the idea of becoming a filmmaker because I'm losing my vision?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's an interesting question. You know, I - initially, I thought of myself as a framing device, that I would talk about my condition and my fears around losing my vision and continuing to work as a "}
{"id": "747605189", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "Rodney Evans", "title": "'Vision Portraits' Filmmaker Wanted To Chronicle Other Artists Who Are Blind", "question_index": 12, "text": "So was the prognosis correct that you wouldn't be losing more vision in the near future?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't really because I had so much vision left to work with. And the way that it was presented to me was that I had lost as much as I was going to lose for a - sorry - for a significant amount of t"}
{"id": "747605189", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "Rodney Evans", "title": "'Vision Portraits' Filmmaker Wanted To Chronicle Other Artists Who Are Blind", "question_index": 13, "text": "So you kind of had two coming outs - one as a gay man and the other as a visually impaired person because I think you were trying to cover it up for a while by not carrying a cane.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Like, if you bump into them, like, that could get - you know, it could get violent really quickly. So I decided that that was the point that I needed this red and white cane, both to help me navigat"}
{"id": "747605189", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "Rodney Evans", "title": "'Vision Portraits' Filmmaker Wanted To Chronicle Other Artists Who Are Blind", "question_index": 14, "text": "And there were a lot of people who you didn't tell. So when you found out about the visual impairment, how did you decide who you were going to tell and who you were going to not tell?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That's right."}
{"id": "747605189", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "Rodney Evans", "title": "'Vision Portraits' Filmmaker Wanted To Chronicle Other Artists Who Are Blind", "question_index": 15, "text": "Yeah, this is something I hadn't thought about. Of course, I'd thought about that if you're losing your vision, you'd be knocking into poles and the world would become more dangerous, but I hadn't thought about all the people who would misinterpret your not seeing them as a snub or an insult, or that you'd accidentally knock into somebody and they'd think, like, you were trying to start a fight with them, that you were disrespecting them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know, or trying to, you know, put them down in a way or - you know, it just made things clear. And so yeah, it just helped with social awkwardness and embarrassment."}
{"id": "747605189", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "Rodney Evans", "title": "'Vision Portraits' Filmmaker Wanted To Chronicle Other Artists Who Are Blind", "question_index": 16, "text": "So yeah, I can see how the cane, the white cane signifying that you're blind and also being a tool to assist you, would send a message to the world - here's why this is happening.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "747605189", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "Rodney Evans", "title": "'Vision Portraits' Filmmaker Wanted To Chronicle Other Artists Who Are Blind", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "747605189", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "Rodney Evans", "title": "'Vision Portraits' Filmmaker Wanted To Chronicle Other Artists Who Are Blind", "question_index": 18, "text": "What's wrong with Rodney?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It was really important. And a lot of friends, I have to say, after I started using it, they were like, I'm really glad that you're doing that. And it was very clear to me that close friends of "}
{"id": "747605189", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "Rodney Evans", "title": "'Vision Portraits' Filmmaker Wanted To Chronicle Other Artists Who Are Blind", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It was really important. And a lot of friends, I have to say, after I started using it, they were like, I'm really glad that you're doing that. And it was very clear to me that close friends of "}
{"id": "747605189", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "Rodney Evans", "title": "'Vision Portraits' Filmmaker Wanted To Chronicle Other Artists Who Are Blind", "question_index": 20, "text": "Like, who does he think he is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, exactly."}
{"id": "747605189", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "Rodney Evans", "title": "'Vision Portraits' Filmmaker Wanted To Chronicle Other Artists Who Are Blind", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like - yeah. What is up with your friend? Like, he's super shady? Like, I'm not - why are you friends with him?"}
{"id": "747605189", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "Rodney Evans", "title": "'Vision Portraits' Filmmaker Wanted To Chronicle Other Artists Who Are Blind", "question_index": 22, "text": "My guest is filmmaker Rodney Evans. He lost much of his sight as a result of a rare genetic disorder. His new documentary \"Vision Portraits\" is about how he and three other blind or partially sighted artists - a photographer, a dancer and a writer - continue to do their work. We'll talk more after a break, and we'll listen back to an interview with groundbreaking documentary filmmaker D.A. Pennebaker. He died Thursday at the age of 94. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because I cannot go through that explanation one more time."}
{"id": "747605189", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "Rodney Evans", "title": "'Vision Portraits' Filmmaker Wanted To Chronicle Other Artists Who Are Blind", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with filmmaker Rodney Evans. He's continued to make movies despite losing most of his eyesight as a result of a rare genetic disorder. His new documentary \"Vision Portraits\" is about how he and three other blind or partially sighted artists - a photographer, a dancer and a writer - continue to do their work. You were telling us that you started losing your vision and got your diagnosis at the same time that you decided to come out. And so, like, coming out and also making the movies you were making at the time were so - took up so much psychic and physical energy that the vision loss was almost in second place. So since you made a film about coming out, I want to talk with you a little bit about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because I cannot go through that explanation one more time."}
{"id": "747605189", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "Rodney Evans", "title": "'Vision Portraits' Filmmaker Wanted To Chronicle Other Artists Who Are Blind", "question_index": 24, "text": "You say that your parents were or are - I'm not sure if they're still alive - conservative? Before you came out, did you sense that they were homophobic and that this was going to be very frightening to them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "747605189", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "Rodney Evans", "title": "'Vision Portraits' Filmmaker Wanted To Chronicle Other Artists Who Are Blind", "question_index": 25, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And I guess I should qualify the term conservative because I think that that has some - so many connotations."}
{"id": "747605189", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "Rodney Evans", "title": "'Vision Portraits' Filmmaker Wanted To Chronicle Other Artists Who Are Blind", "question_index": 26, "text": "In your film, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "were very supportive of my art-making and still, even though, you know, was fully gay and dealt with, you know, LGBT history during the Harlem Renaissance and..."}
{"id": "747605189", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "Rodney Evans", "title": "'Vision Portraits' Filmmaker Wanted To Chronicle Other Artists Who Are Blind", "question_index": 27, "text": "Well, in terms of your life, in a world that's still filled with racism and homophobia, you're in the position of being African American, gay and partially sighted. And so you add racism, homophobia and vision impairment together, and, you know, that's a lot.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In my film, yeah. So they were financial supporters of that film. And, you know, my dad unfortunately didn't live to see the film, but my mom, you know, went with her Jamaican friends on, you know, th"}
{"id": "747605189", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "Rodney Evans", "title": "'Vision Portraits' Filmmaker Wanted To Chronicle Other Artists Who Are Blind", "question_index": 28, "text": "I'm not saying - you know, I'm just saying, in terms of obstacles...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "747605189", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "Rodney Evans", "title": "'Vision Portraits' Filmmaker Wanted To Chronicle Other Artists Who Are Blind", "question_index": 29, "text": "...In terms of how the world perceives you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, for sure."}
{"id": "747605189", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "Rodney Evans", "title": "'Vision Portraits' Filmmaker Wanted To Chronicle Other Artists Who Are Blind", "question_index": 30, "text": "So before we have to end, I want to ask you about Billy Strayhorn because you did a short film that I think was a documentary about him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know? Being both facetious but also being, I think, honest in a really astute way, in that when you are marginalized, you see the center in a much more clear-sighted way, right? So, you know, I th"}
{"id": "747605189", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "Rodney Evans", "title": "'Vision Portraits' Filmmaker Wanted To Chronicle Other Artists Who Are Blind", "question_index": 31, "text": "It was a fiction piece, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a fiction piece, actually."}
{"id": "747605189", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "Rodney Evans", "title": "'Vision Portraits' Filmmaker Wanted To Chronicle Other Artists Who Are Blind", "question_index": 32, "text": "And now you're working on a feature film about Strayhorn. And Billy Strayhorn was a composer and arranger who worked in most of his professional career with Duke Ellington. And among the things he wrote were, like, \"Daydream,\" \"Lush Life,\" \"Take The 'A' Train.\" And he was gay, and I think that wasn't really public until, I don't know, 20 years ago or something. Tell me about your interest in Billy Strayhorn and your angle on him for the movie that you're making.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "747605189", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "Rodney Evans", "title": "'Vision Portraits' Filmmaker Wanted To Chronicle Other Artists Who Are Blind", "question_index": 33, "text": "Rodney Evans, it's been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I think I just fell in love with Billy Strayhorn through his music and through the vulnerability that came through his music. And, you know, I feel like people within the jazz milieu of the "}
{"id": "747605189", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "Rodney Evans", "title": "'Vision Portraits' Filmmaker Wanted To Chronicle Other Artists Who Are Blind", "question_index": 34, "text": "Rodney Evans directed the new documentary \"Vision Portraits.\" After we take a short break, we'll listen back to an interview with groundbreaking documentary filmmaker D.A. Pennebaker. He died Thursday at age 94. His subjects ranged from Bob Dylan to Bill Clinton's 1992 presidential campaign. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having me."}
{"id": "748245832", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "D A Pennebaker", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Winning Documentary Filmmaker D.A. Pennebaker", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're going to listen back to an interview with one of America's foremost documentary filmmakers, D.A. Pennebaker. He died last Thursday at age 94. When presenting Pennebaker with an Oscar for lifetime achievement in 2012, Michael Moore called him one of the filmmakers who, quote, \"invented nothing less than the modern documentary,\" unquote. Pennebaker was a pioneer in creating the documentary form known as cinema verite, which did away with scripting, narration and staged scenes. His political documentaries included the 1993 film \"The War Room\" about Bill Clinton's presidential campaign. It was nominated for an Oscar. Pennebaker edited the groundbreaking 1960 documentary \"Primary\" about the primary race between John Kennedy and Hubert Humphrey. He's best known for his music documentaries. He captured the making of the original cast album of Stephen Sondheim's musical \"Company.\" In the film \"Don't Look Back,\" he captured Bob Dylan's first tour of England in 1965. He made a film about David Bowie's final concert performing as his Ziggy Stardust character. And in his film \"Monterey Pop,\" he captured Jimi Hendrix setting his guitar on fire. I spoke with Pennebaker in 1989.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "748245832", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "D A Pennebaker", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Winning Documentary Filmmaker D.A. Pennebaker", "question_index": 1, "text": "Where were you during \"Monterey Pop\"? Were you behind one of the cameras?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "748245832", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "D A Pennebaker", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Winning Documentary Filmmaker D.A. Pennebaker", "question_index": 2, "text": "When you look back at how you shot the \"Monterey Pop\" film, what do you think you'd do differently now from then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Playing guitar). Yeah, what I say now? Hey. (Playing guitar). Yes, as I said before, it's really groovy. I'm about to bore you for about six or seven minutes to do a little thing here. Yeah, you have"}
{"id": "748245832", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "D A Pennebaker", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Winning Documentary Filmmaker D.A. Pennebaker", "question_index": 3, "text": "Let's talk a little bit about \"Don't Look Back,\" your movie about Bob Dylan, about his British tour in 1965. I believe that you did this film because Albert Grossman, who was Dylan's manager at the time, suggested that you accompany them on the tour and shoot the movie. What kind of agreement, if any, did you have about what you'd be allowed to shoot and what would remain off camera?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not much. I'd probably do it the same way - no directing. I'd get people that I really liked, and I'd let them go their own way - I mean, whose work I liked and who I knew were filmmakers - and let th"}
{"id": "748245832", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "D A Pennebaker", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Winning Documentary Filmmaker D.A. Pennebaker", "question_index": 4, "text": "Well, it's a fascinating film to look at, especially from the vantage point of over 20 years later. And one other thing that's so interesting is that you see Dylan outside of the performance mode. He actually comes off as pretty arrogant in a lot of the movie. And I want to play a brief clip from the film.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was no agreement or arrangement. It was really just a handshake. And I think that that's fair enough. I think that although there was nothing on paper, I think there was a kind of conceptual - w"}
{"id": "748245832", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "D A Pennebaker", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Winning Documentary Filmmaker D.A. Pennebaker", "question_index": 5, "text": "And this is an encounter that he had with a reporter from Time magazine. The reporter wanted to do a story on him, and Dylan's explaining that he really has no interest in Time or this reporter.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "748245832", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "D A Pennebaker", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Winning Documentary Filmmaker D.A. Pennebaker", "question_index": 6, "text": "That's Bob Dylan talking to the reporter from Time. Now, he might be right about how the Time magazine reporter would've totally misinterpreted what was happening. But he treats him with real contempt in that scene that we were hearing. Did he ever regret, do you think, being captured in that way on camera?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Are you going to hear it? OK. You hear it and see it. And it's going to happen fast. And you're not going to get it all. And you might even hear the wrong words, you know? And then afterwards - I won'"}
{"id": "748245832", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "D A Pennebaker", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Winning Documentary Filmmaker D.A. Pennebaker", "question_index": 7, "text": "Can I ask which scenes Dylan wanted to take out of the film?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't know. Dylan's very mercurial. What he feels in the morning he may well not feel by the afternoon. And I know that there's some things in that movie because he's been after me for years t"}
{"id": "748245832", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "D A Pennebaker", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Winning Documentary Filmmaker D.A. Pennebaker", "question_index": 8, "text": "We're listening to my 1989 interview with documentary filmmaker D.A. Pennebaker. He died last week at the age of 94. We'll hear more of my interview after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, the haranguing in the hotel room, with everybody screaming and yelling and the - about the glass being thrown out the window. And it's just because he hated the idea of being seen in that kind of "}
{"id": "748245832", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "D A Pennebaker", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Winning Documentary Filmmaker D.A. Pennebaker", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 1989 interview with documentary filmmaker Donn Pennebaker. He died last week.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, the haranguing in the hotel room, with everybody screaming and yelling and the - about the glass being thrown out the window. And it's just because he hated the idea of being seen in that kind of "}
{"id": "748245832", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "D A Pennebaker", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Winning Documentary Filmmaker D.A. Pennebaker", "question_index": 10, "text": "When you first started making documentaries, it was essential to have camera equipment that made it possible to follow people around and to be as unintrusive (ph) as possible. I think you contributed a lot to redesigning camera equipment to make it more portable.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, the haranguing in the hotel room, with everybody screaming and yelling and the - about the glass being thrown out the window. And it's just because he hated the idea of being seen in that kind of "}
{"id": "748245832", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "D A Pennebaker", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Winning Documentary Filmmaker D.A. Pennebaker", "question_index": 11, "text": "So you designed what to make this more possible?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "all the movies were being made, the only cameras were 35-millimeter hand-wound cameras that would run about 18 seconds - the Eyemos, the Bell & Howell Eyemo. And that meant that in the end, almost"}
{"id": "748245832", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "D A Pennebaker", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Winning Documentary Filmmaker D.A. Pennebaker", "question_index": 12, "text": "There must be a moment in your career when you think back and think to yourself, why wasn't the camera running when that happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we designed a camera that you could hold on your shoulder and only ran - mine eventually ran less than two or three watts to run. It's still less than most cameras that you can buy. And you coul"}
{"id": "748245832", "date": "2019-08-05", "guest": "D A Pennebaker", "title": "Remembering Oscar-Winning Documentary Filmmaker D.A. Pennebaker", "question_index": 13, "text": "Documentary filmmaker Donn Pennebaker, recorded in 1989. He died Thursday. He was 94. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, my guest will be New Yorker staff writer Jia Tolentino. In her new collection of essays, she writes about feminism, social media, growing up in a Southern Baptist megachurch and why she left the Peace Corps before her time was up. I hope you'll join us. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Therese Madden directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "because, you know, you keep wanting to have people go back and come through the door again or do something or say something that just seemed to you fantastic. And you just learned to not listen to tha"}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest Geena Davis starred in two movies about female empowerment - \"Thelma & Louise\" and \"A League Of Their Own.\" But when she got older and roles started to dry up, she realized how unempowered women were in Hollywood. In 2004, she founded the Geena Davis Institute on Gender in Media to get the actual data comparing the number and types of male and female roles and to use that data to convince the industry of the need for change. She is an executive producer of and is featured in the new documentary \"This Changes Everything,\" about how women in Hollywood are pushing for more representation in front of and behind the camera. She's receiving an honorary Oscar this year, the Jean Hersholt Humanitarian Award, at a special ceremony in October. Also with us is director Maria Giese, who's featured in the film, too. After feeling that she was shut out of directing because she's a woman, she became an activist. Her work led to an ongoing EEOC, Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, investigation into systemic discrimination against women directors, as well as an ACLU campaign against discrimination. Geena Davis and Maria Giese, welcome to FRESH AIR. Geena, I want to start with you. You used to make a movie a year. When did things start to slow down in your acting career?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 1, "text": "Did you think of it as discrimination against older women? Did you think of it as there not being enough roles for women in their 40s? Which really isn't very old. Or did you think, oh, it's me - no one wants me anymore?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I had heard about that for a long time, that people said that things change when you turn 40 or when you're in your 40s, but I didn't expect it to be literal. And I also expected it to be no"}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 2, "text": "How did you decide to create your institute?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no. I was very upset and angry at that happening to me. No, I didn't think, oh, it's me, at all. I thought, this is incredibly unfair, and I don't want other people deciding that I have to work le"}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 3, "text": "So the Geena Davis Institute on Gender in Media has done a lot of research on the numbers. Give us some of the numbers that you find most disturbing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was very specific, actually. I - my daughter was a toddler, and I decided she was old enough to start watching preschool shows. So I sat down with her, and the very first show I turned on and watch"}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 4, "text": "Maria Giese, let me move on to you. Things were looking good for you after film school. You were signed to a big agency. The first film you directed was shown at the Cannes Film Festival. You were attached to other projects. What happened after that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, we found that for every two speaking male characters, there's one female speaking character, and that there's an appalling amount of hypersexualization of female characters, even in G-"}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 5, "text": "Ever?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My first feature film directing job out of graduate film school was in England, not in the United States. So when I got back from Cannes, I was represented at William Morris Agency, and basically noth"}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 6, "text": "So what about other women you knew from film school? Were they getting work?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I did a lot of script writing and doctoring and - but no, no primetime TV shows, even though I observed for hundreds of hours on major TV shows like Dick Wolf's \"Law & Order.\""}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 7, "text": "So what was your strategy to try to open the door to more women directors?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that was the thing. You know, what we tend to do when we don't succeed is to blame ourselves, and women were so siloed off in this industry we really didn't have any means of communication. But "}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is the equal opportunity law.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I understood very quickly that the numbers in and of themselves inferred violations of Title VII. So I knew that we could invoke that law to be able to change things in a very significant way."}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 9, "text": "So you went to the ACLU, and then the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission became involved, too. What have they each done?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, Title VII, which was written into law in 1964 by President Johnson. And I started to do research. I went down to the downtown LA courthouse, and I found that six very courageous women in the Dire"}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 10, "text": "So the EEOC has been conducting an investigation into systemic discrimination against women directors. My understanding is they don't make their investigation public. So do you have any idea where things stand?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I first went to the EEOC in 2013. And I could see that I was not going to make any headway with them. So I gathered all my articles and all the work that I had done, and I had even written the beginni"}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 11, "text": "Geena Davis, let me bring you back into the conversation. On TV, you have women like Shonda Rhimes, Ava DuVernay, who's also in movies, and Reese Witherspoon not only doing shows that have women in them but also - certainly with Ava DuVernay, she makes a point of hiring women directors and often women directors of color for her series \"Queen Sugar.\" So, like, it seems like a lot of the change is happening from women like that who are creating the change themselves.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So in - five months after they received that letter from the ACLU, they began their investigation. The EEOC functions in total confidentiality. So there's no way for us to really know where the invest"}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 12, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guests are both featured in the new documentary \"This Changes Everything\" about discrimination against women in Hollywood. Geena Davis is an actress who starred in such films as \"A League Of Their Own\" and \"Thelma & Louise.\" And she founded an institute to study gender discrimination in Hollywood. She's featured in the movie and as an executive producer of the film. Maria Giese is a director who felt shut out of directing because she's a woman. And her actions led to an Equal Employment Opportunity Commission investigation into systemic discrimination against women directors in Hollywood. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely, which is fantastic. You know, they just determined to do it, and they're very creative and they make it happen. There's also people like Ryan Murphy, who has that initiative called Half, w"}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is actor Geena Davis and director Maria Giese. They're both featured in the new documentary \"This Changes Everything\" about discrimination against women in front of and behind the camera in Hollywood. Geena Davis is also an executive producer of the film. And she's been dedicated to equality for women, more roles for women in Hollywood. She founded an institute, the Geena Davis Institute on Gender in Media. Maria Giese is a director who felt shut out for being a woman. And her actions led to an Equal Employment Opportunity Commission investigation into systemic discrimination against women directors. A parallel issue to what we've been talking about - we've been talking about inclusion of women - parallel issue is the predatory behavior of certain men in Hollywood - directors, actors, heads of companies. Harvey Weinstein, of course, comes to mind. I'm wondering what impact you think that might be having on the inclusion issue because we've seen how some men in Hollywood have misused their power to assault or harass women. And that might be a compelling argument for hiring more women to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely, which is fantastic. You know, they just determined to do it, and they're very creative and they make it happen. There's also people like Ryan Murphy, who has that initiative called Half, w"}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 14, "text": "...Prevent that kind of behavior. So I'm wondering if you think it's having that kind of effect.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 15, "text": "So Geena Davis, I have a few questions for you about your career. So you started your career as a model. Was that because you thought that was the way you could break in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I definitely see a big shift happening in Hollywood in the past couple of years since #MeToo and Time's Up. The main thing that's very different is now it's completely OK to talk about this stuf"}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, what was wrong with that plan?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But that was my plan. And it turned out I..."}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But that was my plan. And it turned out I..."}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 18, "text": "So part of your work was modeling for Victoria's Secret. Your first movie role, \"Tootsie,\" you're in your underwear in the film.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, come on. You know, I mean, both are kind of unattainable. It ultimately all worked out for me, but the likelihood of becoming a famous model was actually pretty slim, and I didn't. I did"}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 19, "text": "There's Dustin Hoffman, who plays this man who can't get roles, finally auditions for a role posing as a woman in a soap opera. And when - after he gets the role, he walks dressed as a woman into the dressing room and sees you there in your underwear, and you're not...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, come on. You know, I mean, both are kind of unattainable. It ultimately all worked out for me, but the likelihood of becoming a famous model was actually pretty slim, and I didn't. I did"}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yes, you're not fazed by seeing Dustin Hoffman walk in because you think he's really a woman.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 21, "text": "He, however, is very fazed...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 22, "text": "...And doesn't know where to put his eyes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 23, "text": "So did being a model for Victoria's Secret lead to having this part where you're in your underwear in the dressing room?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 24, "text": "That's really great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And I got the part."}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 25, "text": "And I just think it's so interesting that we're having this conversation about women's empowerment and inclusion of women, and the first part of your career revolves around being in your underwear", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And I got the part."}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 26, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And I got the part."}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 27, "text": "No, no. I know.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- that Sydney liked my audition. He..."}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 28, "text": "But you're in your underwear. And, of course, it's all a joke.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 29, "text": "It's all played for comedy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's true."}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 30, "text": "Yeah. And I have a feeling being really tall - like, you're 6 feet tall...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's all for comedy, yes."}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 31, "text": "...came into play here, too, because there's more of you for Dustin Hoffman to be fazed by when he walks in.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 32, "text": "It's like, he's short; you're really tall.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 33, "text": "And, you know, you're dressed in your underwear so it's even more, like, imposing and, for him, kind of embarrassing because he's a man who is finding it all very arousing, and he shouldn't be there because he's posing as a woman. Anyways...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 34, "text": "So what did you learn being on set? You had a small role.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 35, "text": "But you were with Sydney Pollack. You were working with Dustin Hoffman. You can pick up a lot on a set. What were you looking for and what did you come away with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 36, "text": "But that kind of was your goal.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "and grabbed my chair and put it next to Sydney and sat next to him all day, every day, making the movie. And it was fantastic. And - but nobody, and least of all him, nobody ever said, you realize you"}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 37, "text": "My guests are actor Geena Davis and director Maria Giese. They're both featured in the new documentary \"This Changes Everything,\" about the campaign for more representation of women in front of and behind the camera in movies and TV. After a break, I'll talk more with Geena Davis about her movie career, and Bruce Talamon will talk about taking photos of soul, funk and R&B stars of the '70s. He was the photographer for \"Soul Train\" and took photos for Jet, Ebony and the black-owned LA newspaper Soul. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess it was."}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 38, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We've been talking with actor Geena Davis and director Maria Giese about the campaign for more representation of women behind and in front of the camera in movies and TV. They're both featured in the new documentary about that campaign called \"This Changes Everything.\" Geena Davis is also an executive producer of the film. She's best known for her starring roles in \"Thelma & Louise,\" \"A League Of Their Own,\" and \"Beetlejuice.\" In 2004, she founded the Geena Davis Institute on Gender in Media. In this part of the interview, I'm going to talk more with Davis about her own movie career. I want to ask you about \"Thelma & Louise.\" I'm going to ask you to describe the premise.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess it was."}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 39, "text": "More specifically, you play a woman in an unhappy marriage and you want to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, so - gosh. I haven't really ever had to describe what it's about. It's about two women who grab ahold of their fate and refuse to relinquish control no matter how far it takes them, that they rema"}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 40, "text": "...Let down your hair, as you put it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 41, "text": "So you and your friend, played by Susan Sarandon - they go on a trip together, have a lot of drinks in a bar, guy comes up to you, asked to dance with you. You go out to the parking lot with him, and he starts to rape you. And you try really hard to, like, throw him off of you. He's got you pinned against a car. And then Susan Sarandon comes out. She's got a handgun, pulls it on him, asks him to apologize. He refuses. She ends up shooting him, and then you both go on the lam because you feel like, who's going to believe you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 42, "text": "And so it's a kind of - I think at the time, people were comparing it to Butch Cassidy. And the ending's kind of similar, where, you know, they kind of ride off a cliff, and you drive off a cliff. And it's a buddy movie. And a buddy movies are always men's movies. And this is a buddy movie that's a women's movie. So what impact do you think it had both on audiences but also on Hollywood? - because it was a big hit. I'm sure it made a lot of money.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a good description."}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 43, "text": "Geena, I want to ask you about one of the recurring roles that you have now, and that's on this series \"GLOW\" - the Netflix series \"GLOW,\" which is about women wrestlers in the 1980s. And your role is as the entertainment director of a casino. And there's a scene where you come out in - why don't you describe the costume.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It did well. And it also struck a nerve that none of us expected. Nobody was going into this thinking, oh, we're going to really make a statement with this, or this is going to be a powerful message f"}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 44, "text": "...The one with the feathers and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I don't know which one you mean. I had..."}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 45, "text": "Yes, that one.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The one with the feathers and rhinestones?"}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 46, "text": "And you also are an archer - like bow and arrow archery.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 47, "text": "And you even competed to be on the Olympic archery team. How did you take up archery?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 48, "text": "...In \"A League Of Their Own.\" Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was completely random in some ways. So I had been very unathletic as a kid. I didn't want to try any sports because I was - I call it physically shy. Being so tall, I just didn't want anybody"}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 49, "text": "What did you like about archery? Was it a centering thing for you - focus?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In \"A League Of Their Own,\" yeah. So I had a lot of training. And very quickly, the coaches were saying, you know, you have a lot of untapped athletic ability. And so I learned at 36 that I actually w"}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 50, "text": "A battle with yourself to not battle with yourself.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's very centering and focusing. It's a lonely sport because you're out there for hours every day shooting by yourself. But I loved it. And I was so shocked when my coach said after just a few "}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 51, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Exactly."}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 52, "text": "Geena Davis, Maria Giese, thank you both so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. With - the other thing that I loved about it was that it's measured by points. And I had spent so much time in a field where you're measured by people's judgment, you know, where, you know, y"}
{"id": "749067994", "date": "2019-08-07", "guest": "Geena Davis", "title": "'This Changes Everything': Geena Davis On Empowering Women In Hollywood", "question_index": 53, "text": "Geena Davis is featured in and is an executive producer of the new documentary \"This Changes Everything,\" about the campaign for better representation of women in front of and behind the camera in movies and TV. In October, at a special ceremony, she'll receive an honorary Oscar, the Jean Hersholt Humanitarian Award. We also heard from director Maria Giese, who's also featured in the film \"This Changes Everything.\" After we take a short break, we'll hear from photographer Bruce Talamon, whose photos of soul, funk and R&B stars of the '70s and early '80s are collected in a book. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks so much, Terry."}
{"id": "749787689", "date": "2019-08-09", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Toni Morrison With 3 Conversations Over 4 Decades", "question_index": 0, "text": "I think there've been a lot of books and movies that have actually really trivialized slavery or where slavery becomes the backdrop for, you know, a romantic story or something like that. Did you feel in advance of sitting down to write this book that there were certain traps that you had to avoid in order to really get to the truth of the experience?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I always suspected that I didn't have the emotional stability to live in that world for the three or four years, however long it would take to examine it. So I did it, I suppose, the way they did it, "}
{"id": "749787689", "date": "2019-08-09", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Toni Morrison With 3 Conversations Over 4 Decades", "question_index": 1, "text": "I think a lot of children who grew up in families of Holocaust survivors or families in which there was, you know, history in - a history of slavery some place get almost parables told to them about what could happen and why you have to live life a certain way to, you know, protect yourself against certain evils and how you have to rise above the horrors that were inflicted on your grandparents or whatever. Did you get lectures like that from your parents?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think that was part of a fear. Trying to avoid the routine treatment - and I'm included in this group - everybody thinks you sort of know all about it. But until you project into it, most of t"}
{"id": "749787689", "date": "2019-08-09", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Toni Morrison With 3 Conversations Over 4 Decades", "question_index": 2, "text": "But you had a lot of self-respect.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I didn't. I got other messages from them which were much more valuable because those are very negative, the ones you just recited. I mean, it's undue burdens as though I am somehow responsible for"}
{"id": "749787689", "date": "2019-08-09", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Toni Morrison With 3 Conversations Over 4 Decades", "question_index": 3, "text": "I mean, that's what this is about, about building self-respect.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, because..."}
{"id": "749787689", "date": "2019-08-09", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Toni Morrison With 3 Conversations Over 4 Decades", "question_index": 4, "text": "That's right", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, but it wasn't, you must have - I hear people say..."}
{"id": "749787689", "date": "2019-08-09", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Toni Morrison With 3 Conversations Over 4 Decades", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, but it wasn't, you must have - I hear people say..."}
{"id": "749787689", "date": "2019-08-09", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Toni Morrison With 3 Conversations Over 4 Decades", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yeah, that helps.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You are somebody. You really are good."}
{"id": "749787689", "date": "2019-08-09", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Toni Morrison With 3 Conversations Over 4 Decades", "question_index": 7, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, you know..."}
{"id": "749787689", "date": "2019-08-09", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Toni Morrison With 3 Conversations Over 4 Decades", "question_index": 8, "text": "Were you the first person in your family to go to college?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And then people say, oh yeah, well, then maybe it's a possibility I'm not. But these - they were not surprised at superior work."}
{"id": "749787689", "date": "2019-08-09", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Toni Morrison With 3 Conversations Over 4 Decades", "question_index": 9, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "749787689", "date": "2019-08-09", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Toni Morrison With 3 Conversations Over 4 Decades", "question_index": 10, "text": "So it wasn't a big symbolic thing for you to go.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had an uncle who went to Ohio State."}
{"id": "749787689", "date": "2019-08-09", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Toni Morrison With 3 Conversations Over 4 Decades", "question_index": 11, "text": "That's Toni Morrison reading from her new novel \"Jazz.\" You know, the woman who cuts the face of the dead woman, a character later says to the woman who does the cutting, I don't understand women like you, women with knives. Do you understand women with knives, kind of crimes of passion like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know that woman. She used to live with a flock of birds on Lenox Avenue. I know her husband, too. He fell for an 18-year-old girl. With one of those deep down spooky loves that made him so sad and h"}
{"id": "749787689", "date": "2019-08-09", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Toni Morrison With 3 Conversations Over 4 Decades", "question_index": 12, "text": "Was there a particular crime that you wanted to understand or a particular woman with a knife who you wanted to understand?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not entirely. I think part of the reason I was interested in the story and in that period was some way to figure out the impulses for violence as a sort of notion of solution and how it plays into not"}
{"id": "749787689", "date": "2019-08-09", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Toni Morrison With 3 Conversations Over 4 Decades", "question_index": 13, "text": "What's the closest you've seen to this in real life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The woman I really wanted to understand was Dorcas, the young girl, who is based on a historical figure, actually, a young girl who died in Harlem at a red party shot by her lover with a silencer and "}
{"id": "749787689", "date": "2019-08-09", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Toni Morrison With 3 Conversations Over 4 Decades", "question_index": 14, "text": "No family legends or neighborhood legends from when you were growing up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've never seen any of it. I mean, I don't - if I had seen it or participated in it, I probably wouldn't be so interested in writing about it. But it was sort of outside one's own personal experience "}
{"id": "749787689", "date": "2019-08-09", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Toni Morrison With 3 Conversations Over 4 Decades", "question_index": 15, "text": "Toni Morrison is my guest. You have this sense in your novel \"Jazz\" of people coming to Harlem or coming to the city and feeling more like themselves. They are more like the people they always believed they were is the way you put it. That's obviously something you were really interested in developing in this story, just what it meant physically and emotionally for people move - to move to the city. You must have stories about that in your family history.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not about women. About men, yes, who were championed because of their endurance and their response to violence associated with them. But the women that I knew were, I suppose in a manner, verbally abl"}
{"id": "749787689", "date": "2019-08-09", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Toni Morrison With 3 Conversations Over 4 Decades", "question_index": 16, "text": "Would you share with us one of your parents' migration stories?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I do, yes. That move from the rural areas where I think in literature sometimes, we romanticize into the freedom of the countryside, you know, the sort of ability to commune with nature and be one"}
{"id": "749787689", "date": "2019-08-09", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Toni Morrison With 3 Conversations Over 4 Decades", "question_index": 17, "text": "In Ohio.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And the children all began to wail and cry. And a few miles outside the city, he appeared. But he hadn't felt that he could show himself at the station and get on with them because they were escaping "}
{"id": "749787689", "date": "2019-08-09", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Toni Morrison With 3 Conversations Over 4 Decades", "question_index": 18, "text": "What was Lorain like when you were growing up? What kind of neighborhood were you growing up in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "749787689", "date": "2019-08-09", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Toni Morrison With 3 Conversations Over 4 Decades", "question_index": 19, "text": "So what was the African American cultural center? Was it the church, or was it...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "in those days, had their own halls, churches and, you know, family life. That was not mixed. You know, you didn't exchange on those areas in those days. But there's one high school, four junior high s"}
{"id": "749787689", "date": "2019-08-09", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Toni Morrison With 3 Conversations Over 4 Decades", "question_index": 20, "text": "...Something else? The church?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes."}
{"id": "749787689", "date": "2019-08-09", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Toni Morrison With 3 Conversations Over 4 Decades", "question_index": 21, "text": "In your new book of literary criticism, \"Playing In The Dark,\" you write about how, until recently, American readers were assumed to be white, and you wonder what that assumption has meant to the literary imagination in America. When you started reading, were you conscious of reading books in which there were few, if any, black characters?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of our salute to Toni Morrison, the respected and influential writer who died Monday at the age of 88. Let's get back to the "}
{"id": "749787689", "date": "2019-08-09", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Toni Morrison With 3 Conversations Over 4 Decades", "question_index": 22, "text": "So when you say that the language was coded, let me get you to elaborate on the kind of code you felt you had to cut through or work around.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I was conscious of there being a sort of disruption in some books when black people did occur, and there was a kind of embarrassment, a kind of need to skip over those parts in, say, being in the "}
{"id": "749787689", "date": "2019-08-09", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Toni Morrison With 3 Conversations Over 4 Decades", "question_index": 23, "text": "I think it's fair to say that in most of your fiction, there's really been very few significant white characters.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Using black women and men to appear in a scene for no reason other than to provide the tension that might suggest illegal sexuality or violence - they have no other function except to define and to su"}
{"id": "749787689", "date": "2019-08-09", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Toni Morrison With 3 Conversations Over 4 Decades", "question_index": 24, "text": "Yeah, so how does that relate to what you're talking about now - you know, about the code and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yes."}
{"id": "749787689", "date": "2019-08-09", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Toni Morrison With 3 Conversations Over 4 Decades", "question_index": 25, "text": "Toni Morrison, welcome back to FRESH AIR. I'd like to start by asking you to do a reading from your new novel. So this is from very early in the novel, where Sweetness, the mother, who is light-skinned African American, is talking about how shocking and upsetting it was to give birth to a daughter with very dark skin - as she describes it, midnight black, Sudanese black. So would you pick up from there with the reading?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. In 2015, at the age of 84, Toni Morrison wrote a new novel called \"God Help The Child\" which would be the last one published in her lifetime. She died Monday at the age of 88. \"God "}
{"id": "749787689", "date": "2019-08-09", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Toni Morrison With 3 Conversations Over 4 Decades", "question_index": 26, "text": "That's Toni Morrison reading from her new novel \"God Help The Child.\" So the mother distances herself from the daughter because of the daughter's dark skin. The father leaves, thinking this child must not be his because he, too, is lighter-skinned. And that sets the whole story in motion, and I'm wondering why you chose color - you know, the level of blackness - as a central part of the story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. (Reading) I hate to say it, but from the very beginning in the maternity ward, the baby, Lula Ann, embarrassed me. Her birth skin was pale like all babies, even African ones, but it changed fast"}
{"id": "749787689", "date": "2019-08-09", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Toni Morrison With 3 Conversations Over 4 Decades", "question_index": 27, "text": "So were there times in your life when you've been exposed to that kind of hierarchy of color within the African American community?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I wanted to separate color from race. Distinguishing color - light, black, in-between - as the marker for race is really an error. It's socially constructed, it's culturally enforced, and it has"}
{"id": "749787689", "date": "2019-08-09", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Toni Morrison With 3 Conversations Over 4 Decades", "question_index": 28, "text": "And you went to a traditionally African American college, Howard University.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have. I didn't have it until I went away to college. I didn't know there was this kind of preference, but I noticed in addition to the outside world of Washington, D.C. - which, at that time, this i"}
{"id": "749787689", "date": "2019-08-09", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Toni Morrison With 3 Conversations Over 4 Decades", "question_index": 29, "text": "There was a New York Times Magazine cover story about you recently, and in that article, you described, when you were young, witnessing your father throw a white man down the stairs because your father thought this man was coming up the stairs after his daughters. Was your father afraid that this man was coming to abuse you and your sisters?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "749787689", "date": "2019-08-09", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Toni Morrison With 3 Conversations Over 4 Decades", "question_index": 30, "text": "You said that this incident made you feel protected. It sounds terrifying, though, for two reasons. One is that your father basically gave you the idea that this man was coming upstairs to do you harm. And two, watching your father not only throw him down the stairs but throwing your tricycle down the stairs after him. It sounds like that would be a little frightening to see, also.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think he thought so. I think his own experience in Georgia would have made him think that any white man bumbling up the stairs toward our apartment was not there for any good. And since we were litt"}
{"id": "749787689", "date": "2019-08-09", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Toni Morrison With 3 Conversations Over 4 Decades", "question_index": 31, "text": "I think it must've been hard for your father to hate white people and to live in a neighborhood in which there's a lot of white people.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was my father, who could do no wrong. So I didn't think of it as, oh, look. My father's a violent man. He never, you know, spanked us. He never quarreled with us. He never argued with us. He "}
{"id": "749787689", "date": "2019-08-09", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Toni Morrison With 3 Conversations Over 4 Decades", "question_index": 32, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Toni Morrison. And she has a new novel called \"God Help The Child.\" The main character's birth name is Lula Ann Bridewell. When she's 16, she changes it to Ann Bride. Two years later, she changes it to one name, Bride. And she's in the fashion world, in the cosmetics world. So it's a very, you know, signature kind of name to have. Names are very important in your fiction. There's often people - people often have nicknames. And I'm interested in hearing about why names have such real and symbolic importance in your stories.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, my father saw two black men lynched on his street in Cartersville, Ga., as a child. And I think seeing two black businessmen, not vagrants, hanging from trees as a child was traumatic "}
{"id": "749787689", "date": "2019-08-09", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Toni Morrison With 3 Conversations Over 4 Decades", "question_index": 33, "text": "So your birth name is Chloe Wofford. Morrison was your married name when you were married. But you've been divorced a long time since 1974. And Toni was shortened from Anthony, which was the name when you were...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And then you think of the musicians - Satchmo, Louis Armstrong. What is Satchmo? That's Satchel Mouth. Or you think about them giving themselves royal names - duke and count and king. You know, it's"}
{"id": "749787689", "date": "2019-08-09", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Toni Morrison With 3 Conversations Over 4 Decades", "question_index": 34, "text": "Baptized. And so am I right in saying that you became a Catholic when you were 12? That's what I read.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Baptized."}
{"id": "749787689", "date": "2019-08-09", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Toni Morrison With 3 Conversations Over 4 Decades", "question_index": 35, "text": "So let's start with your name. Once you started being called Toni, did you feel different from being called Chloe?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I did."}
{"id": "749787689", "date": "2019-08-09", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Toni Morrison With 3 Conversations Over 4 Decades", "question_index": 36, "text": "So just one more question - you didn't start writing till you were 39 or 40. Is that because you didn't have the time or didn't know you had it in you? Like, what was the point in which you said, I'm going to write a novel? What changed?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's conclude our salute to author Toni Morrison, who died Monday at the age of 88, by returning to the interview she recorded with Terry Gross in 2015."}
{"id": "749787689", "date": "2019-08-09", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Toni Morrison With 3 Conversations Over 4 Decades", "question_index": 37, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I was teaching at Howard University after I got a masters at Cornell, and I was young - in my 20s - and I joined a group of faculty and writers who met, I think, once a month to read to each othe"}
{"id": "749787689", "date": "2019-08-09", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Toni Morrison With 3 Conversations Over 4 Decades", "question_index": 38, "text": "Toni Morrison, thank you so much for talking with us. I really appreciate it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I wrote a bit of that. I went to the meetings. They thought it was very interesting. It was just, you know, maybe five or six pages, and they were very encouraging. And then I left, and I went to S"}
{"id": "750803289", "date": "2019-08-13", "guest": "Christopher Leonard", "title": "'Kochland': How The Koch Brothers Changed U.S. Corporate And Political Power", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The Koch brothers, Charles and David, are famous for the wealth they've amassed through Koch Industries - together they're worth more than $100 billion - and for creating a powerful political influence network. The network is designed to amplify messages pushed by Koch Industries, support legislation that favors Koch's needs and goals and defeat legislation that stands in the way of Koch profits. Koch has used this network to prevent or try to dismantle regulations that affect the businesses. Koch Industries has its roots in the fossil fuel industry, and the Kochs have fought against regulating greenhouse gas emissions that contribute to climate change. Charles Koch has even tried to remake the Republican Party, according to the new book \"Kochland: The Secret History Of Koch Industries And Corporate Power In America.\" My guest is the author, Christopher Leonard. He's a business reporter who covered agribusiness for the AP from 2005 to 2012. Christopher Leonard, welcome to FRESH AIR. A lot of people have focused on the politics of the Koch brothers; the large part of your book is focused on the business end of the Koch brothers - how they built their fortunes, the ways they manipulated politics to enlarge their fortune. So I want to start by talking with you about the business end of Koch Industries. Why did you want to focus on that part?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "750803289", "date": "2019-08-13", "guest": "Christopher Leonard", "title": "'Kochland': How The Koch Brothers Changed U.S. Corporate And Political Power", "question_index": 1, "text": "Now, you said we couldn't boycott these products even if we wanted to because they're so embedded in the infrastructure. But also, like, Koch's name isn't on most of the products that it makes. For example, Koch owns Georgia-Pacific, which makes - you know, it - the products that it makes includes, like, paper plates and tissues, paper towels. But at the same time, it's a huge, like - what? - like, wood and pulp industry.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What drew me to this corporation was the realization that the story of Koch Industries over the last 50 years really is a history of American capitalism during that time. You can explore our entire ec"}
{"id": "750803289", "date": "2019-08-13", "guest": "Christopher Leonard", "title": "'Kochland': How The Koch Brothers Changed U.S. Corporate And Political Power", "question_index": 2, "text": "Since Koch Industries has taken over, like, bought so many other companies and its reach is so far now, is the word conglomerate an adequate word to describe Koch Industries? I couldn't think of a word that really described what I was reading about in your book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's exactly right. It's - I'm sitting here in a studio; Koch Industries probably had a hand in making the wall panels I'm looking at right now. The lights are on; Koch probably played at some level"}
{"id": "750803289", "date": "2019-08-13", "guest": "Christopher Leonard", "title": "'Kochland': How The Koch Brothers Changed U.S. Corporate And Political Power", "question_index": 3, "text": "One of the things that enabled Koch Industries to grow is that it refused to be taken public. In 1981, Morgan Stanley wanted to take it public, to put it on the exchange, open it up for shareholders. And Charles Koch refused to do that. Why did he decline and what were the advantages of staying a private company?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think conglomerate is a good way to get at it, but the term I use is a private equity firm, and this really reflects what's going on in the American economy today. You know, you've heard about these"}
{"id": "750803289", "date": "2019-08-13", "guest": "Christopher Leonard", "title": "'Kochland': How The Koch Brothers Changed U.S. Corporate And Political Power", "question_index": 4, "text": "What was Koch Industries like when Charles and David Koch took it over from their father? What was the industry then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the prologue of the book is called \"The Fighter,\" and that's really how I've come to see Charles Koch. Charles Koch has a very specific vision of how corporations should be run. And I should point "}
{"id": "750803289", "date": "2019-08-13", "guest": "Christopher Leonard", "title": "'Kochland': How The Koch Brothers Changed U.S. Corporate And Political Power", "question_index": 5, "text": "I should mention here that later we'll get to the politics of the Koch brothers and Koch Industries because they've done a lot of political work to make sure that there's no legislation inhibiting their goals. And that includes trying to prevent the passage of legislation that limits greenhouse gas emissions. So in order to create and build this huge collection of businesses owned by the Koch brothers, including, like, just, like, buying them through private equity, they created a veil of secrecy - you call it the corporate veil - to protect Koch Industries in case any one of these individual companies fails and goes into debt. So can you talk a little bit about that corporate veil, how it works and how it protects Koch Industries?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the industry then was much smaller and less coordinated than it is today. You know, Charles Koch tried not to work for the family company. He was born and raised in Wichita with four brothers. He h"}
{"id": "750803289", "date": "2019-08-13", "guest": "Christopher Leonard", "title": "'Kochland': How The Koch Brothers Changed U.S. Corporate And Political Power", "question_index": 6, "text": "Is this all legal?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. This is vital to understanding how Koch really grew during the 2000s. That's when you saw this era of explosive growth. So around the year 2000, Koch Industries focused on building this kind of "}
{"id": "750803289", "date": "2019-08-13", "guest": "Christopher Leonard", "title": "'Kochland': How The Koch Brothers Changed U.S. Corporate And Political Power", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. And when you write about this corporation, the word legal becomes so fascinating and so complex."}
{"id": "750803289", "date": "2019-08-13", "guest": "Christopher Leonard", "title": "'Kochland': How The Koch Brothers Changed U.S. Corporate And Political Power", "question_index": 8, "text": "And some of the, like, regulatory laws and financial laws are so complex, with loopholes in them that you can manipulate them if you're smart enough.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It really does. Koch Industries, their core competence is mastering complex systems. I mean, this is a company born and bred running big machines at oil refineries, very complicated pipeline networks."}
{"id": "750803289", "date": "2019-08-13", "guest": "Christopher Leonard", "title": "'Kochland': How The Koch Brothers Changed U.S. Corporate And Political Power", "question_index": 9, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Christopher Leonard. He's the author of the new book \"Kochland: The Secret History Of Koch Industries And Corporate Power In America.\" And it gets not just into the industries. It gets into the political power of the Koch brothers as well. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think a postcard example of this is when Koch Industries helped build these deregulated electricity markets in California back in the year 2000. And it's very clear from the historical record "}
{"id": "750803289", "date": "2019-08-13", "guest": "Christopher Leonard", "title": "'Kochland': How The Koch Brothers Changed U.S. Corporate And Political Power", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And my guest is Christopher Leonard, author of the new book \"Kochland: The Secret History Of Koch Industries And Corporate Power In America.\" It's also the story of how the Koch brothers have tried to remake the Republican Party to better suit the political and business needs of Koch Industries. So one of the things that Koch Industries did was to branch out into the trading and derivatives market. So here we're talking about Wall Street kind of deals, complicated trading instruments. I - every time I learn about them, I kind of quickly forget what they are because they're", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think a postcard example of this is when Koch Industries helped build these deregulated electricity markets in California back in the year 2000. And it's very clear from the historical record "}
{"id": "750803289", "date": "2019-08-13", "guest": "Christopher Leonard", "title": "'Kochland': How The Koch Brothers Changed U.S. Corporate And Political Power", "question_index": 11, "text": "so complicated.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think a postcard example of this is when Koch Industries helped build these deregulated electricity markets in California back in the year 2000. And it's very clear from the historical record "}
{"id": "750803289", "date": "2019-08-13", "guest": "Christopher Leonard", "title": "'Kochland': How The Koch Brothers Changed U.S. Corporate And Political Power", "question_index": 12, "text": "So we're not going to get into the weeds on that but these are things like trading commodities and - give us some words to use to describe the basics.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "750803289", "date": "2019-08-13", "guest": "Christopher Leonard", "title": "'Kochland': How The Koch Brothers Changed U.S. Corporate And Political Power", "question_index": 13, "text": "It hires meteorologists.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And I'm really glad we're talking about this because I found that trading - just that word writ large, trading - trading is at the core of this institution. Trading is the strategic heart of Koc"}
{"id": "750803289", "date": "2019-08-13", "guest": "Christopher Leonard", "title": "'Kochland': How The Koch Brothers Changed U.S. Corporate And Political Power", "question_index": 14, "text": "So the Koch brothers use this not only to figure out pricing for actual things in the real world; they start trading in the markets, like in the stock market kind of markets, that basically bets on what prices will be. And since they have so much information, they make more and more", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Koch literally went on a hiring spree and took the best stars from the Weather Channel and other channels like that to come in-house and predict the weather just a little bit better than everybody els"}
{"id": "750803289", "date": "2019-08-13", "guest": "Christopher Leonard", "title": "'Kochland': How The Koch Brothers Changed U.S. Corporate And Political Power", "question_index": 15, "text": "money just trading on these, like, speculative options, is that the right word - derivatives?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Koch literally went on a hiring spree and took the best stars from the Weather Channel and other channels like that to come in-house and predict the weather just a little bit better than everybody els"}
{"id": "750803289", "date": "2019-08-13", "guest": "Christopher Leonard", "title": "'Kochland': How The Koch Brothers Changed U.S. Corporate And Political Power", "question_index": 16, "text": "My guest is Christopher Leonard, author of the new book \"Kochland: The Secret History Of Koch Industries And Corporate Power In America.\" After we take a short break, we'll talk about the Koch's influence on American politics. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's exactly the right word - derivatives. And let's just keep it very simple and say they're insurance contracts on natural gas supplies. But the market for this is so enormous that a natural"}
{"id": "750803289", "date": "2019-08-13", "guest": "Christopher Leonard", "title": "'Kochland': How The Koch Brothers Changed U.S. Corporate And Political Power", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to our interview with Christopher Leonard, author of the new book \"Kochland: The Secret History Of Koch Industries And Corporate Power In America.\" The Koch brothers, Charles and David, are famous for the wealth they've amassed through Koch Industries - together, they're worth more than $100 billion - and for creating a powerful political influence network. Let's talk about the Koch brothers' political agenda. One of the major things they've opposed over the years is environmental regulations, regulating greenhouse gas emissions that contribute to climate change. What's their record as polluters, both in terms of emissions released into the air and toxins released into water and the land?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's exactly the right word - derivatives. And let's just keep it very simple and say they're insurance contracts on natural gas supplies. But the market for this is so enormous that a natural"}
{"id": "750803289", "date": "2019-08-13", "guest": "Christopher Leonard", "title": "'Kochland': How The Koch Brothers Changed U.S. Corporate And Political Power", "question_index": 18, "text": "So they did their best to block it. So this is the Waxman-Markey bill that you're talking about. And what year was that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they are one of the largest registered polluters in the United States, according to EPA documents. They're one of the largest emitters of various pollutions. I mean, this is a company that owns "}
{"id": "750803289", "date": "2019-08-13", "guest": "Christopher Leonard", "title": "'Kochland': How The Koch Brothers Changed U.S. Corporate And Political Power", "question_index": 19, "text": "...Introduced to Congress?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So this was..."}
{"id": "750803289", "date": "2019-08-13", "guest": "Christopher Leonard", "title": "'Kochland': How The Koch Brothers Changed U.S. Corporate And Political Power", "question_index": 20, "text": "Which is what you were describing before. And as you say, this would have been a nightmare for Koch's fossil fuel businesses. So the Koch lobbyists target Republicans, who supported this cap and trade bill targeting greenhouse gas emissions. So what were some of the lobbying innovations, so to speak, that the Kochs came up with to - as incentives for Republicans to oppose the bill and as threats to Republicans who didn't?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Waxman-Markey bill was introduced in Congress in 2009. And this was at the absolute peak of the Obama revolution, if we would call it that. I mean, this was the rise of the blue wave in 2009, whic"}
{"id": "750803289", "date": "2019-08-13", "guest": "Christopher Leonard", "title": "'Kochland': How The Koch Brothers Changed U.S. Corporate And Political Power", "question_index": 21, "text": "This group has been called an astroturf group because it may look like a grassroots group, but it's really a group that's being - it's like fake grassroots. It's being manipulated by larger powers, in this case the Koch brothers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And when Koch intervenes in this arena, it does it in the same way it trades commodities. It does it over time with patience, making 100 bets, if you will, hoping that it wins seven out of 10 tim"}
{"id": "750803289", "date": "2019-08-13", "guest": "Christopher Leonard", "title": "'Kochland': How The Koch Brothers Changed U.S. Corporate And Political Power", "question_index": 22, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Christopher Leonard. He's the author of the new book \"Kochland: The Secret History Of Koch Industries And Corporate Power In America.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And I want to be a little careful here. You know, the book talks about the rise of the Tea Party, critically important moment in American history. The Tea Party was a legitimate populist movemen"}
{"id": "750803289", "date": "2019-08-13", "guest": "Christopher Leonard", "title": "'Kochland': How The Koch Brothers Changed U.S. Corporate And Political Power", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Christopher Leonard, author of the new book \"Kochland: The Secret History Of Koch Industries And Corporate Power In America.\" The book is also about Koch political power in America. So another thing that the Kochs did to kind of create this populist or pseudo-populist movement against cap and trade was to teach volunteers how to call talk radio stations and get on the air and even, like, mention the websites that listeners should go to to learn more. Can you talk a little bit about the echo chamber that Koch created to amplify and spread its political messages?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And I want to be a little careful here. You know, the book talks about the rise of the Tea Party, critically important moment in American history. The Tea Party was a legitimate populist movemen"}
{"id": "750803289", "date": "2019-08-13", "guest": "Christopher Leonard", "title": "'Kochland': How The Koch Brothers Changed U.S. Corporate And Political Power", "question_index": 24, "text": "In addition to the things you've already described that Koch Industries did to kill cap and trade, what incentives or threats did it offer directly to politicians? - because it wanted legislators to vote against cap and trade, against regulating greenhouse gas emissions.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. And you know, Steve Lonegan, who headed Americans for Prosperity in New Jersey, just gleefully described this stuff to me. I think he's - he believes in what he's doing. He's really proud "}
{"id": "750803289", "date": "2019-08-13", "guest": "Christopher Leonard", "title": "'Kochland': How The Koch Brothers Changed U.S. Corporate And Political Power", "question_index": 25, "text": "So when cap and trade was defeated, did the Koch brothers see that as a great victory for them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "From the earliest days, Charles Koch has made it clear that the focus of his attention is going to be the Republican Party. As he said at a gathering in 2005, you know, the Democrats are a lost cause."}
{"id": "750803289", "date": "2019-08-13", "guest": "Christopher Leonard", "title": "'Kochland': How The Koch Brothers Changed U.S. Corporate And Political Power", "question_index": 26, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Christopher Leonard. He's the author of the new book \"Kochland: The Secret History Of Koch Industries And Corporate Power In America.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, without question. And I mean, I want to point out that within months of the defeat of cap and trade, Koch Industries started making a series of very large investments in crude oil pipelines in s"}
{"id": "750803289", "date": "2019-08-13", "guest": "Christopher Leonard", "title": "'Kochland': How The Koch Brothers Changed U.S. Corporate And Political Power", "question_index": 27, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Christopher Leonard, author of the new book \"Kochland: The Secret History Of Koch Industries And Corporate Power In America.\" The book is also about Koch political power in America. You explained that the Kochs did not support Donald Trump in the primaries, and you say everything Trump stood for was a threat to the Kochs. What were the things he stood for that was a threat? Why were they a threat? What did he stand for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, without question. And I mean, I want to point out that within months of the defeat of cap and trade, Koch Industries started making a series of very large investments in crude oil pipelines in s"}
{"id": "750803289", "date": "2019-08-13", "guest": "Christopher Leonard", "title": "'Kochland': How The Koch Brothers Changed U.S. Corporate And Political Power", "question_index": 28, "text": "And how does that go against the Koch vision?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He stood for an entirely different vision of the Republican Party. Charles Koch believes he has found the blueprint for how to organize society, and the blueprint is non-negotiable. Government must pl"}
{"id": "750803289", "date": "2019-08-13", "guest": "Christopher Leonard", "title": "'Kochland': How The Koch Brothers Changed U.S. Corporate And Political Power", "question_index": 29, "text": "You say that the Koch agenda now with Trump in the White House is block and tackle - block legislation that Trump wants that the Koch brothers don't want and then help Trump tackle projects that or legislation that the Kochs support. How's that been working?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, Charles Koch believes that any government program, no matter how well-intentioned, it only causes more harm than good. And, you know, the tariffs and the so-called trade war that's going on "}
{"id": "750803289", "date": "2019-08-13", "guest": "Christopher Leonard", "title": "'Kochland': How The Koch Brothers Changed U.S. Corporate And Political Power", "question_index": 30, "text": "Right. It's getting rid of a lot of regulations and dismantling part of the agencies that oversee the regulations.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I have to say this strategy's been working extremely well for Koch's interests. If Charles Koch had a Christmas list of 99 items, he's gotten 98 since Trump got into the White House. The Koch st"}
{"id": "750803289", "date": "2019-08-13", "guest": "Christopher Leonard", "title": "'Kochland': How The Koch Brothers Changed U.S. Corporate And Political Power", "question_index": 31, "text": "Christopher Leonard, thank you so much for your reporting and for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, gosh, talking about deregulation almost sounds like the Reagan era, and that's - what's happening right now surpasses that so dramatically. It's - you know, for example, the EPA has been a - I"}
{"id": "750803289", "date": "2019-08-13", "guest": "Christopher Leonard", "title": "'Kochland': How The Koch Brothers Changed U.S. Corporate And Political Power", "question_index": 32, "text": "Christopher Leonard is the author of the new book \"Kochland: The Secret History Of Koch Industries And Corporate Power In America.\" FRESH AIR is produced in Philadelphia. A beloved newspaper editor from our city, Gar Joseph, has died of brain cancer at the age of 71. He was a reporter, then editor at the Philadelphia Daily News. FRESH AIR's Dave Davies was a reporter and columnist at the Daily News for 20 years and worked with Joseph. Dave, reporters don't always like their editors. What made Gar Joseph special?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "750803289", "date": "2019-08-13", "guest": "Christopher Leonard", "title": "'Kochland': How The Koch Brothers Changed U.S. Corporate And Political Power", "question_index": 33, "text": "How did he deal with morale at the paper? - because as you mentioned, the paper had a lot of financial cutbacks. It filed for bankruptcy in 2009.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was sure-footed, very direct - no time for BS or sugarcoating criticism - had a wicked sense of humor. He pretty much ended up running the newsroom. But he was really a reporter at heart and a real"}
{"id": "750803289", "date": "2019-08-13", "guest": "Christopher Leonard", "title": "'Kochland': How The Koch Brothers Changed U.S. Corporate And Political Power", "question_index": 34, "text": "And in 2010, the paper actually won a Pulitzer.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Gar was one of the most pragmatic people I ever met. He wouldn't worry about what he couldn't control. And when the paper filed for bankruptcy, he said, folks, we got to keep doing our jobs, and our b"}
{"id": "750803289", "date": "2019-08-13", "guest": "Christopher Leonard", "title": "'Kochland': How The Koch Brothers Changed U.S. Corporate And Political Power", "question_index": 35, "text": "Well, thanks for that remembrance, Dave. And we send our sympathies to Gar Joseph's family.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That was really special for him. He edited the series about a police narcotics squad written by two incredibly talented reporters Wendy Ruderman and Barbara Laker. It was enormously satisfying t"}
{"id": "750803289", "date": "2019-08-13", "guest": "Christopher Leonard", "title": "'Kochland': How The Koch Brothers Changed U.S. Corporate And Political Power", "question_index": 36, "text": "Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, my guest will be Janet Mock, a writer, director and producer of the TV series \"Pose\" about the underground gay and trans ball culture of the late '80s and early '90s, when the AIDS epidemic was decimating the community. With \"Pose,\" Mock made history as the first trans woman of color to write and direct an episode of TV. I hope you'll join us. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Ann Marie Baldonado, Therese Madden, Mooj Zadie, Thea Chaloner and Seth Kelley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks, Terry."}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 0, "text": "You're tense.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Agent Ford) No. I'm not tense."}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 1, "text": "Jonathan Groff, welcome to FRESH AIR. It's a pleasure to have you on the show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Agent Ford) No. I'm not tense."}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 2, "text": "So among the serial killers, Ed Kemper, who we just heard you interviewing in the fictionalized version - you know, he abducted several female hitchhikers, killed them, engaged in necrophilia and cannibalism, killed his mother. It's an example of the type of killer who you're interviewing in this. What's the creepiest moment in season one for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me. Thank you for having me. I'm such a fan."}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 3, "text": "You just collapse afterwards.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", literally and figuratively. And he sort of goes on this monologue about, you know, how his victims are his spirit wives. And it's a pretty chilling monologue that he has and a pretty chilling moment"}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", literally and figuratively. And he sort of goes on this monologue about, you know, how his victims are his spirit wives. And it's a pretty chilling monologue that he has and a pretty chilling moment"}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 5, "text": "What kind of research did you do for the role?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 6, "text": "So you were in the cast of \"Hamilton\" on Broadway when you got the part for \"Mindhunter.\" Let's talk a little bit about \"Hamilton.\" So you played King George, aka the white guy in the cast.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I started by reading the book \"Mindhunter,\" written by John Douglas, who my character is inspired by. And he really lays it all out in that book, just sort of specifically his journey but also emotion"}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 7, "text": "And you're the king, and the whole Revolutionary War is about cutting ties with you. So you're, like, the bad guy. But you're also, like, the comic relief in the show. So how come your character is funny, as opposed to more of a threat?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. Exactly."}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, we should hear you sing, as King George, \"You'll Be Back,\" the breakup song that", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "idea of, you know what? Yeah, I know you've left me, but you'll be back. And it's that sort of passive-aggressive British thing where he's talking about killing your friends and family but sort of end"}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 9, "text": "you were referring to. So this is my guest, Jonathan Groff, in the original cast recording of \"Hamilton.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "idea of, you know what? Yeah, I know you've left me, but you'll be back. And it's that sort of passive-aggressive British thing where he's talking about killing your friends and family but sort of end"}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 10, "text": "So that's Jonathan Groff in the cast recording of \"Hamilton\" as King George. You should describe what you wore onstage for that song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As King George, singing) You say the price of my love is not a price that you're willing to pay. You cry in your tea which you hurl in the sea when you see me go by. Why so sad? Remember we made an a"}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "that I hid underneath my cape that I revealed at a particular moment during the song. So it's a very opulent, giant costume - a sensible, you know, inch-and-a-half heel. Paul Tazewell is the costume d"}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 12, "text": "I think maybe in part because of the costume, King George comes off a little bit like Queen George.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's one of those parts that, like, just works. And the song just kills."}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 13, "text": "OK, so tell me about that. Tell me about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, because - it's interesting because when I originally saw the show, I saw Brian d'Arcy James. And I was pulling my hair out a little bit because he came out kind of like Napoleon. You know, he's "}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 15, "text": "That's really funny. So you mentioned that the song that you sing is kind of British Invasion. But I have to say the melody reminds me of The Monkees' song \"Daydream Believer.\" Do you know that song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Is what it feels like to me while I'm watching this. It's just - she has extreme power and control. And there's this sensuality that she has while she's singing. So perhaps the kind of, like, the v"}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 16, "text": "But it's the first part that really reminds me of it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Daydream believer - yeah, of course."}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 17, "text": "Very much like the melody.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, wait. Sing the first part for me. How does it go?"}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 18, "text": "I would sing it, but I would just be mocked.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, wait. Sing the first part for me. How does it go?"}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 19, "text": "And I don't remember the words. But it's the same melody.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 20, "text": "Wait. I'm going to look it up. Hang on. Hang on. OK. (Singing) I could hide 'neath the wings of the bluebird as she sings.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wait. I have to - you have to..."}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 21, "text": "I'm so off-key.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wait. I have to - you have to..."}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 22, "text": "But that's similar, isn't it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK, first of all, Terry, you have great pitch."}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 23, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Humming) And it's like (singing) you'll be back. Soon you'll see. You'll remember - yes, it's very similar."}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 24, "text": "And The Monkees...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I never even - I sort of had forgotten about the opening of that song, but you're exactly right."}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 25, "text": "And The Monkees are kind of like the fake British Invasion.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is very similar."}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 26, "text": "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's funny. So what was it like to be the white guy in the cast of \"Hamilton\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Totally, totally. It's like a rip-off of a rip-off."}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 27, "text": "OK, well, if you're just joining us, my guest is Jonathan Groff. And he is the star of the new series on Netflix \"Mindhunter.\" He was King George in \"Hamilton.\" He was in \"Glee.\" He co-starred in \"Spring Awakening.\" He was in \"Frozen\" as Kristoff and also the voice of the reindeer - so a lot of varied roles. We're going to take a short break. Then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Incredible. It was great. It's so funny you say that because at one point, they gave us - somebody - I think it was one of the dancers. I think it was Betsy, who funnily was another - like, the other "}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 28, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Jonathan Groff. He's now starring in the Netflix series \"Mindhunter,\" in which he's an FBI agent developing this new technique of profiling serial killers, of finding out their psychology, so he can understand what the motivation is. And that can help track down other serial killers. And he also played King George in \"Hamilton.\" He co-starred in \"Spring Awakening.\" He was a recurring character in \"Glee.\" And he was Kristoff and the voice of his reindeer in \"Frozen.\" So I find it really interesting that, you know, adults and teenagers who love \"Hamilton\" and were obsessed with \"Hamilton\" - while that's going on, there's children who are obsessed", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Incredible. It was great. It's so funny you say that because at one point, they gave us - somebody - I think it was one of the dancers. I think it was Betsy, who funnily was another - like, the other "}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 29, "text": "with \"Frozen\" and listening to that over and over in the same way that other people are listening to \"Hamilton\" over and over. And you're on both of those. That must have been odd for you to have these two separate identities - you know, one in a hip-hop musical and the other in an animated kid's musical, also knowing that people were obsessed with both of them, listening to them over and over.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Incredible. It was great. It's so funny you say that because at one point, they gave us - somebody - I think it was one of the dancers. I think it was Betsy, who funnily was another - like, the other "}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 30, "text": "So I have to ask you - when you're dressed up as Mary Poppins for Halloween, did your parents think, oh, my God, he's dressing as a girl. What does that mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's so cool. You never know if something's going to be a success - and then in the particular case of \"Hamilton\" and \"Frozen,\" like, a kind of worldwide phenomenon. You know, it's all about timing an"}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 31, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know. You would think that when I eventually came out, they were like, I think we knew at 3 when you wanted to be Mary Poppins."}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 32, "text": "Were you singing...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But they were shocked. But it's really, like - I still thank my mom to this day for letting me do it. It didn't even - she didn't bat an eye. She was just all about letting us express ourselves howeve"}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 33, "text": "...At age 3?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As far as I can..."}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was singing at age 3. There's a video of me singing, you know, just \"A Spoonful Of Sugar\" with - holding my carpet bag and dressed as Mary Poppins."}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 35, "text": "So you did the voice in \"Frozen\" both of Kristoff and the reindeer Sven. Can you talk about getting the voices?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "From 3 to 5, very - I was Cinderella in my own little corner, you know, really intense. And now I'm gay, but I don't have that deep, like, drag desire anymore. It's like I did it, you know, from 3 to "}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 36, "text": "Can you give me an example of how that sounds?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Which I - part of the joy of \"Frozen\" has been 'cause kids, you know, between 3 and 6 - their parents were like, this is Jonathan. He's the voice of Kristoff in \"Frozen.\" And they kind of look at m"}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 37, "text": "That's so great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I feel like this. I feel like - (as Kristoff) hey, Terry. What's up? This is Kristoff from the movie \"Frozen.\" And I'm here with my friend Sven. Say hi, Sven. (As Sven) Hi, Terry. It's me, Sven. I'm s"}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 38, "text": "Now, I have to ask you - you didn't come out to your parents or publicly until you were in your 20s, until, I think, after you were in \"Spring Awakening.\" Do I have that right?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's 2017 interview with Jonathan Groff. He stars as an FBI agent in the Netflix series \"Mindhunter,\" which premieres i"}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 39, "text": "And so it's interesting. Like, Broadway seems to me like it would be one of the most safe places in all of entertainment to come out because, I mean, like, historically, there have been so many gay men, you know, on stage and behind the scenes in Broadway.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, correct, correct."}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 40, "text": "So did it - were you not ready? Or did it not feel comfortable enough?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Totally."}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 41, "text": "I didn't mean that in any kind of critical way. I just meant, like, that's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's sort of - it was sort of a combination of things. And really, it's specific, as it is to everyone sort of..."}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 42, "text": "Yeah, I - it's just, like, that's a relatively safe space, as far as things go.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God, I don't feel that you were being critical at all. No, oh, my God."}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 43, "text": "Exactly, right", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Are you kidding me? I - yeah, it's, like, everyone here is gay."}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 44, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Are you kidding me? I - yeah, it's, like, everyone here is gay."}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 45, "text": "Were your parents surprised when you came out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wouldn't - isn't this, like, THE easiest place to - I know exactly what you're talking about. Oh, my God, no."}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 46, "text": "When your father was shocked, was he upset shocked or just surprised shocked?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My dad was shocked, and my brother was shocked, but my mom had an inkling. So it was, like, a mixed - it was a mixed reaction."}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 47, "text": "You come from a pretty religious background, right? Your father is Mennonite and your mother Methodist?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Weirdly, he was not upset shocked. He was so - it was kind of amazing, actually. I'd come out to him, and he sort of took a long pause. And he was like, so that's what you've been dealing with. He was"}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 48, "text": "Yeah. But, like, Amish people usually wear - you know, like, the women have - often have bonnets. The men grow long beards. They don't use technology. They live in their own community cut off from the rest of the world, except maybe for the farmers markets", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wow, yes. I'm impressed that you know that. Yeah, my dad is Mennonite, and my mom is Methodist. We were raised Methodist. But we're - but my dad's whole side of the family is Mennonite, which is, like"}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 49, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wow, yes. I'm impressed that you know that. Yeah, my dad is Mennonite, and my mom is Methodist. We were raised Methodist. But we're - but my dad's whole side of the family is Mennonite, which is, like"}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 50, "text": "...That they come out for with, like, fabulous produce.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, exactly, exactly."}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 51, "text": "So - but Mennonites don't, like, dress from another century in the same way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 52, "text": "You know, your parents are both athletes. Your mother is a gym teacher - right? - and your father, I think, was a basketball player in school.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct. Yeah, Mennonites drive cars and have electricity. And there - it's - this sort of connection in a lot of ways is that I grew up in Lancaster, Pa. A lot of Mennonites in Lancaster - there're a"}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 53, "text": "Did they give you, like, bats and balls at first before they realized, no, it's about the stage, not about, like, the football field or the baseball diamond?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah, both athletes, yeah."}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 54, "text": "Well, your mother had to drive you around to auditions 'cause you were actually in shows as a kid, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's sort of - it's the complicated - it's like this sort of yin and yang in a positive and negative about growing up for me was that I had this weird shame about being gay that I must have lear"}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 55, "text": "Did you have an audition number that you would always do as a kid?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, exactly. Not until I was - my first one was 14, so I wasn't, like, a child actor. But yes, once I was in - had just left middle school, I started doing community theater and stuff. That was a bi"}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 56, "text": "Because you're half Mennonite.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was my first audition song."}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 57, "text": "So you had to do all the idle-diddle stuff?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", exactly, exactly."}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 58, "text": "That's so funny. Like you're - as a 14-year-old, you're playing this older man on a - this older Jewish man on a shtetl.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, I did. I did the daidle-diddle-daidle-dum (ph). Yeah, the whole - yeah, I did \"If I Were A Rich Man\" - it's so weird. As a 14-year-old, that was my, like, go-to."}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 59, "text": "Why did you choose that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know, right?"}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 60, "text": "Of all the songs in the world, why \"If I Were A Rich Man?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It worked."}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 61, "text": "Well, it's a great show, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just loved \"Fiddler On The Roof.\" I loved \"Fiddler On The Roof.\" It's so funny."}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 62, "text": "So your big breakthrough part as a kid was getting to play Rolfe in a production of \"The Sound Of Music.\" Was this a road show?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 63, "text": "So you were old enough that you didn't need to be escorted by an adult.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. So I did it at this theater in my hometown, at the Fulton Opera House, when I was 15. And then I did the nonunion national tour of \"The Sound Of Music.\" That was my first job. Right after my seni"}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 64, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct, correct, thankfully. And it's interesting because Rolfe is only in, you know, 15 minutes of the show. He sings you are 16 going on 17, and then, through a series of small vignettes, becomes a"}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 65, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Jonathan Groff. He's now starring in \"Mindhunter,\" the Netflix series about FBI agents who are developing the technique of psychological profiling of serial killers. So we're going to take a short break. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I was so excited to be on this - in this show that I would sit in the wings and watch the show. I would say for, you know, about half of the performances a week I would sit in the wings and watch "}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 66, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Jonathan Groff. And he stars in the new Netflix series \"Mindhunter,\" about FBI agents developing profiling of serial killers. He was King George in \"Hamilton\" and is on the original cast recording. He was the voice of Kristoff and Sven the reindeer in \"Frozen.\" So we had talked about coming out when you were in your 20s after having been in \"Spring Awakening,\" right? After the show was over?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I was so excited to be on this - in this show that I would sit in the wings and watch the show. I would say for, you know, about half of the performances a week I would sit in the wings and watch "}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 67, "text": "After - yeah. So - but then just, like, a couple of years ago or so, you were starring in the HBO series \"Looking,\" which is about a group of gay friends. And it's about their private lives, so there's - you know, there's a lot of sex in it, a lot of relationships and sex. So it's - it must have been so interesting for you to, after coming out and, you know, waiting a bit to do it, to be in such a kind of totally gay", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, exactly. Yep."}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 68, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, exactly. Yep."}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 69, "text": "...Series. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Totally."}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 70, "text": "That's the movie that was made - I think it was written - was it written or directed by the person who did \"Looking?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thought - and I did - you know, when the project initially came across my desk - or my laptop, I guess I should say - I don't have a desk - but, yeah, I thought, you know, it's one thing to come out"}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 71, "text": "Oh, yeah. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Both."}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 72, "text": "Well, why don't we hear a scene from \"Looking\"? And this is from the opening episode of \"Looking,\" and you've just found out that your ex-boyfriend - you guys broke up about four months earlier - is getting married, and you're invited. And you're trying to figure out, do you go? What are you supposed to do in a situation like that? So here's a scene from \"Looking\" with my guest, Jonathan Groff.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Written and directed by Andrew Haigh, who was our main director and co-writer with Michael Lannan of \"Looking.\" And I just - that movie just rocked me to my core. That any kind of weird insecurity I h"}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 73, "text": "That was my guest, Jonathan Groff, in a scene from the first episode of HBO's \"Looking.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Patrick Murray) Thank you. Joint, please."}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 74, "text": "So one of the things you're preparing to do - there's this - a long-running series called \"Lyrics & Lyricists\" in which a singer or a group of singers celebrate the lyrics of a great songwriter. And you're going to be doing a new, revamped version of \"Lyrics & Lyricists.\" What are some of your favorite songs that you most like to sing? You - like, you've done a cabaret act. Like, what's your ideal cabaret act?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have to say, too, like, one of the things I loved about that - that's such a great scene to pick as a soundbite because it perfectly encapsulates the show because it's telling the story of a world i"}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 75, "text": "But she's not supposed to be a good singer. Sally Bowles is the singer in \"Cabaret,\" and she's not supposed to be...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, God, that's such a good question. I'm always just trying to be Sally Bowles in my life."}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 76, "text": "In spite of the fact that she was played by Liza Minnelli in the movie, she's really not supposed to be very good. So why are you aspiring to be her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But that's the thing. I guess..."}
{"id": "751740114", "date": "2019-08-16", "guest": "Anna Torv", "title": "'Mindhunter' Actor Jonathan Groff On His Most Life-Altering Roles", "question_index": 77, "text": "Jonathan Groff, it's just been great to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 0, "text": "Peter Fonda, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Jimmy Jackson) You're all we got, Pop."}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 1, "text": "You're playing someone in \"Ulee's Gold\" who's very, very inward, very reserved - someone who's surrounded by people much more volatile than he is. You write in your book that this part demanded the kind of performance only actors like your father give. What do you mean by that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 2, "text": "What does that mean - find the moment and then let it go?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very understated, putting very little spin on the line, letting the moment play for itself - but that means you have to know what the moment is, find it and fill it and then let it go."}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 3, "text": "Has your role in \"Ulee's Gold\" led to other interesting offers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The heaviest line in the film was when my character says to Eddie and Ferris that meeting - the line is, meeting someone like you, Eddie, has done me a world of good. And he says, how's that? I said, "}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 4, "text": "Yeah. Yeah. She's great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I just finished \"The Passion Of Ayn Rand\" with Helen Mirren, who is really cool."}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And she's - I love her. And I believe that the offer that came to me to play Frank O'Connor, Ann Ryan's (ph) - Ayn Rand's husband - and I - when I read the script, I said, God, I'm just a piece of fur"}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I wasn't in every scene. After all, it's not called \"The Passion Of Frank O'Connor.\" It's \"The Passion Of Ayn Rand.\" So I learned how to do a scene with one word. It's just the way I inflected and t"}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 7, "text": "All right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Now, this is a wonderful compliment coming from..."}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 8, "text": "The roles that you first really became famous for were biker roles. So before we get to some of those roles, how did you first meet Dennis Hopper, who was your collaborator?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Helen Mirren."}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 9, "text": "And what hooked you up together? I mean, what did you see in each other?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...At her wedding, I was there. Their reception was held in my sister's apartment in New York in 1960, and that's when I met Dennis the first time."}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, you wrote a screenplay together called \"Yin And Yang,\" and I think it was that screenplay that led you to Roger Corman. And Roger Corman cast you in his film \"Wild Angels,\" which was about bikers - about the Hells Angels.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A certain energy and frustration and the ability to collaborate to break through that and the ability to find ideas that were new and different. And fortunately for me, I got turned on to some of the "}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 11, "text": "Yeah. Well, this is a, you know - you're, like, you know, the leader of a Hells Angels gang, a kind of real switch from previous roles that you had in movies like \"Tammy And The Doctor\" and \"Lilith.\" What did you think of yourself as being the biker?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Notice how you had to stammer just for a second. It was about - what was it about?"}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 12, "text": "Now, why do you think Corman cast you in the biker role?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, I liked the job I did in \"Lilith.\" I thought I fit the bill well. And in my later years now, I'm enjoying hearing that from people. But I didn't want to be cast as the same sensitive rol"}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think he saw me as this very rebellious person who didn't give a rat's a** and went out there and just did what was most, I guess, obnoxious, or at least..."}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is a great way to endear yourself to your family.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Shook the cage - whatever would shake the cage the most into any kind of really set-in legislative morality. I really believe that there's - abstract morality has no place in our political or our e"}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 15, "text": "Too late.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, by this time, my family..."}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 16, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, you got it."}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 17, "text": "So listen. When you were cast in \"Wild Angels,\" were you already riding a motorcycle?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And they'd all skated. I was the family."}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 18, "text": "Oh, boy. It would've been fun to see you and Brando, who had also played a biker, riding around together.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. I'd been riding around a lot with various other glitterati - McQueen and Brando, myself, Ted Markland - people that..."}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Actually, I..."}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 20, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thought to myself, that's the strangest question to ever come from this dude..."}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 21, "text": "What'd you say?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 22, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just said no."}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 23, "text": "I think it's time to hear a scene from \"Wild Angels\"...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR, and we're listening to the interview Terry Gross recorded in 1998 with Peter Fonda. Fonda died last week at the age of 79."}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 24, "text": "...Your first biker film.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Uh-oh."}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 25, "text": "And - now, in this scene, you're at the funeral of a biker - a biker played by Bruce Dern - and his coffin is covered by a Nazi flag. There's a minister delivering a eulogy, which you think is really phony. So you interrupt the eulogy to say this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Uh-oh."}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 26, "text": "And as you can hear, they are totally tearing apart the church.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Heavenly Blues) We're going to have a good time. We're going to have a party. (CHEERING)"}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 27, "text": "Peter Fonda, your thoughts listening back to this scene?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Heavenly Blues) We're going to have a good time. We're going to have a party. (CHEERING)"}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 28, "text": "Groovy would be the other alternative.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's..."}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 29, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, not groovy - just far-out. And you know, what the heck? You would have to pick that scene..."}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 30, "text": "Who did?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Which - I didn't write it."}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 31, "text": "How did those lines sound to you at the time? You want to be free to not be hassled by the man.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 32, "text": "Now, there is a poster of you from this movie that you say sold - what? - 16 million copies in America or something like that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thought I had a better way of saying it, but I was reminded that I was playing the leader of a motorcycle gang and didn't necessarily have that larger vocabulary."}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 33, "text": "How seriously did you take yourself at the time as a biker icon?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Easily, yeah."}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 34, "text": "The Loser.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't even put those two things together. I was brought into Corman's office. He was over at 20th Century Fox - had a deal making films over there. And he said he wanted to make - and my hair was r"}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 35, "text": "Right. It's funny - when you were young and going to boarding school and private school, you write that you had the image of being a sissy. And for a while, you were even called Fairy Fonda. That was, in part, because you had to play the role of a fair maiden in \"The Pirates Of Penzance\" at an all-boys school", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Anyway, it turned out that the fellow who was cast to play the part that I ended up playing didn't know how to ride a motorcycle, so I got the gig, but at the same price I got to play for being the Lo"}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 36, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Anyway, it turned out that the fellow who was cast to play the part that I ended up playing didn't know how to ride a motorcycle, so I got the gig, but at the same price I got to play for being the Lo"}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 37, "text": "Yeah. Yeah. You were real, like, skinnymarink (ph) at the time. Anyways, it's a kind of far cry from that image - you know, from the sissy image that you had to - you know, the biker.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Also the fact that I weighed probably 82 pounds."}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 38, "text": "Did you like that change? Did you find it amusing, or did you take it really seriously?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Worked."}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 39, "text": "Let's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that particular part of the change I found very amusing. And even writing the script with Dennis, it was a lot of fun and amusement to it. I was definitely bent to do something different in my l"}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 40, "text": "I have a question about Roger Corman's \"The Trip,\" but you'll be spared from any clips.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The next film - oh, yeah. What are you going to do next to me? Let me find out if I should chain myself to this chair and handcuff myself so I don't come crawling through the mic."}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 41, "text": "OK. This is an LSD movie, with lots of, like, swirling, psychedelic colors intercut in the trip scenes. Now were you already - I imagine you were already tripping a lot yourself when you shot this movie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 42, "text": "No, I don't mean while making the movie, but I mean - I don't mean you were high during the shooting of the movie necessarily, but you already knew a lot about acid traps by the time you made the movie, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no. You couldn't really do that. I think I'd end up looking at the camera and just starting to crack up thinking these guys are really serious, aren't they?"}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 43, "text": "Not a lot.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not a lot."}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 44, "text": "Now how did you and Dennis Hopper decide to do \"Easy Rider,\" your own version of a biker film?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think probably - I only took - my reputation for consumption far exceeds the actual amount of controlled substances that I ever attempted or tried. But I knew what it was. I knew what it was. I had "}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 45, "text": "What did you want your motorcycle to look like for the movie?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "and 1:30 in LA time. And I called Dennis, told him the story that I made up. And he said that's far out. What are you going to do? I said, well, I thought you direct it. I'll produce it. We both write"}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 46, "text": "And that's the effect you wanted.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just what it looked like - all that steel and all that engine between my legs and that red, white and blue and star-spangled gas tank. I thought it was like a huge, phallic symbol, that I'd be riding "}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 47, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly, and Dennis wanted me in white leathers. And I said, no, no, no, this isn't Evel Knievel. We stay in black leathers."}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 48, "text": "You say in your book that as soon as you had your motorcycle and your leathers, you started writing the LA freeway at night to practice, I guess. But you were stopped every night by the police. What were those encounters like?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies in for Terry Gross, who's off this week. We're listening to Terry's 1998 interview with actor Peter Fonda, who died last week at the age of 79. Fonda is best remembe"}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 49, "text": "Now time for another scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was stopped because I was wearing the flag on the back. I had the costume on, and I had the flag in the back of my jacket, and they thought I was degrading the flag. So they would arrest me. A"}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 50, "text": "In this scene...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Uh oh."}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 51, "text": "This is one of your scenes in \"Easy Rider\" with Jack Nicholson. And Jack Nicholson is an alcoholic lawyer. And in this scene, you're giving him his first joint. You're convincing him...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This noose is getting tighter every time, but I can handle it. I can handle it."}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 52, "text": "...To try marijuana. Let's hear the scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 53, "text": "Your memories of shooting that scene?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Wyatt) You've got to hold it in your lungs longer, George."}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 54, "text": "Now what did your father, Henry Fonda, think of \"Easy Rider\" and your image as, you know, the countercultural movie star who rode a motorcycle and went on, you know, trips of both kinds - the acid and road kind?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you can't see me in my end of the world. I was running all the lines, lip-syncing them to the folks in our engineering room just for the heck of it. Yeah, I remember that. Of course, there's the"}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 55, "text": "And in movie terms, it made a fortune. I mean, you know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm sure that he wasn't thrilled with the whole thing. But he knew that I was very serious as a producer, and that I had put this thing down as an original story and then co-wrote it with Dennis"}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 56, "text": "Right, right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, but he didn't know that yet."}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 57, "text": "Now later in life, you were in a motorcycle accident. And you broke your back and broke your neck.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I knew we would make some money, and therefore Dennis and I would have a track record, and we can make another motion picture. It was later into it that I realized how far out it would go. And my dad "}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 58, "text": "The second time you broke your neck in a motorcycle accident?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The neck was the second time."}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 59, "text": "How'd you break it the first time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just the second time I broke my neck."}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 60, "text": "Did you ride a bike again after you broke your back and your neck?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". All I was was a target for the older boys who were kind of problem boys and sent to this farm school for that reason and beaten up, or sand was put in my bed. Basically, life was made real miserable"}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 61, "text": "But do you ride it now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not for five years."}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 62, "text": "Now I want to go back to the very beginning, you know, when you were a kid. Where was your father in his career when you were a child - when you were, like, 5 or 6?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 63, "text": "Your father's movies kept him away from home and from you a lot of the time. Did you resent his movie career?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". You know, we weren't positive about it. At least, I wasn't. I thought maybe my mom had all the money and dad was just having a good time. And as it ended up later, I found out what kind of work acti"}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 64, "text": "Wow. Was he a very strict father with you when he was around?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, I was the lucky one. After the debacle of the boarding school for boys up in Topanga Canyon, I was kept at home and tutored at home. So when my father was in between movies, I got to see him"}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 65, "text": "What was he down on you for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was strict. But, I mean, he didn't carry a bullwhip. But he was very critical of Jane and me, very quick to criticize. And..."}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 66, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I didn't - you know? Meanwhile, I'd leave the salt shaker out there and have - suffer the..."}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 67, "text": "When you and your sister Jane were kids, did you have any clue that you would actually pursue acting careers yourselves? Or did you both think as kids that you'd head in some completely opposite direction?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know? God was asking, who ate the apple? One time, when he came home on leave, I went to look at his personal things. I always did that with my parents, wondering what they meant, what these tal"}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 68, "text": "So you went through different phases on this", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "How old are kids?"}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 69, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "How old are kids?"}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 70, "text": "Are you surprised that your daughter Bridget has become an actress, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I mean, I appeared in plays and stuff during school. I didn't realize it was a job till way late in the game. But it was 19 and in college that I discovered that's what I wanted to do. I desperate"}
{"id": "753698477", "date": "2019-08-23", "guest": "Tom Wood", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Easy Rider' Peter Fonda", "question_index": 71, "text": "Well, Peter Fonda, I want to thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, except that she's extraordinarily beautiful. She has great presence, and she has talent and knows how to work it. See; these things aren't passed on genetically or I would have been manipulating"}
{"id": "754318426", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. It's Emmy week on FRESH AIR, featuring our interviews with some of this year's nominees. We'll start with Bill Hader, who became famous as a cast member of \"Saturday Night Live.\" He's nominated for four Emmys related to HBO's dark comedy series \"Barry,\" which he co-created and stars in, and won for IFC's \"Documentary Now!\" Last year, after Season 1 of \"Barry,\" Hader won the Emmy for best lead actor in a comedy series. Hader plays Barry, a Marine who has suffered from depression and PTSD ever since returning from Afghanistan. After feeling he was useless back at home, he became a hit man doing what he knew he was good at - shooting people. One hit he's assigned is in LA, where his job is to kill a young man who's having an affair with the wife of a crime boss. As Barry pursues his target - a personal trainer and acting student - Barry sits in on the acting class, ends up doing a scene and thinks maybe he can transform his life by becoming an actor. In this scene from Season 1, Barry asks the acting teacher, Gene Cousineau, if he can join the class. Cousineau is played by Henry Winkler.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "754318426", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Bill Hader, welcome back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Gene Cousineau) Gene M. Cousineau. I look forward to this journey."}
{"id": "754318426", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 2, "text": "I love the series.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "754318426", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Well, that clip kind of summarizes part of what the first season was about, Barry knowing that he's a good hit man but truly wanting a different life. And he has trouble speaking the truth on stage. But when he speaks it offstage, like he did in that scene, people don't always believe him because he seems so preposterous.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hi."}
{"id": "754318426", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 4, "text": "And that's a kind of constant thing in the series that when people, like, act the truth, people don't necessarily want to hear it. When they act the more, you know, stage version of the truth that's a distortion of the truth, people, like, give them accolades", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "754318426", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "754318426", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 6, "text": "It's a bummer", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "754318426", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "754318426", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 8, "text": "As one guy says", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a bummer."}
{"id": "754318426", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a bummer."}
{"id": "754318426", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, we - that was the thing we kept saying. I was like, oh, that was a bummer."}
{"id": "754318426", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Yeah. How did the idea of a hit man who wants to be an actor get started? Like, what was the germ of that idea?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that was, like - it was a real bummer. And so, yeah, a lot of times, the - you know, in Season 2, the whole - Henry Winkler's character, the acting coaching, Gene Cousineau, makes them do a trut"}
{"id": "754318426", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Oh, so you weren't buddies? Like, somebody, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Alec Berg and I were kind of put together by our mutual agent. This is back in 2014. And..."}
{"id": "754318426", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 13, "text": "...Played matchmaker?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I knew him."}
{"id": "754318426", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "754318426", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Wait, what - so what was that first idea?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", which is kind of..."}
{"id": "754318426", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know?"}
{"id": "754318426", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like, I just was like, I can't really get into this. I mean, we have bits. There's comedy bits. But where's the emotion? Where's the story? And really, where are the stakes to it, you know? And so we "}
{"id": "754318426", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Kind of separately went, I don't think this idea works. It's kind of - doesn't really hold water. And I go, it should be stakes. And I remember he said, oh, you know, life and death, you know, that"}
{"id": "754318426", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 19, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Bill Hader. He's the co-creator, the star, co-writer and a director of the HBO series \"Barry.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So it was a funny - it just seemed, you know, the acorn, the seed of the idea could, you know, give us a tree that'd, you know, give us a lot of interesting stories and different branches and places"}
{"id": "754318426", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So it was a funny - it just seemed, you know, the acorn, the seed of the idea could, you know, give us a tree that'd, you know, give us a lot of interesting stories and different branches and places"}
{"id": "754318426", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 21, "text": "And if you're just joining us, my guest is Bill Hader. He first became known for his work as a performer and writer on \"Saturday Night Live,\" and now he's the co-creator, star, co-writer, co-producer...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So it was a funny - it just seemed, you know, the acorn, the seed of the idea could, you know, give us a tree that'd, you know, give us a lot of interesting stories and different branches and places"}
{"id": "754318426", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 22, "text": "...And one of the directors of the HBO series \"Barry.\" And he plays a Marine who served in Afghanistan and returns home with a very guilty conscience. And when he comes home, the best work he can find is using the skill he has and becoming a hit man. But on his way to carrying out an assignment as a hit man in LA, he decides he really wants to be an actor...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "754318426", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 23, "text": "...And access all the emotions that he's been blocking. Yes. Sounds improbable, yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "754318426", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 24, "text": "What?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, when you say it, you're like..."}
{"id": "754318426", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 25, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, when you say it, you're like..."}
{"id": "754318426", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 26, "text": "No, but I love it because it ends up having - like, it has a lot of humor, but it also has, like, a surprising amount of emotional depth.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Oh, man, I can't believe HBO said yes to this."}
{"id": "754318426", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 27, "text": "And that leads us to the next clip I want to play. You know, in the second season, there is a kind of twist on the first clip that we played, where Barry is telling his acting teacher, Henry Winkler, that, you know, his buddy - that Barry's buddy was shot in Afghanistan when Barry was a Marine there. And Barry took revenge and killed the man he thought was the shooter, but it was the wrong man, and he's suffered from guilt ever since. But what he's not confessing in this scene is, A, that he's a hit man and, B, that he's killed Cousineau's girlfriend Janice, who was a cop and was onto the fact that Barry was a hit man. That happened in Season 1. So in this part, Barry is telling his teacher Gene Cousineau, played by Henry Winkler, about the emotional aftermath of shooting the wrong man in Afghanistan.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "754318426", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 28, "text": "That's a scene from the HBO series \"Barry,\" with my guest Bill Hader and Henry Winkler. And Bill Hader co-created, co-writes and also directs several episodes of the series. So that's just such a great scene about - now that we've told you you have to be honest, make sure you hide the truth. And another question raised in that clip that we just heard or - you know, are we capable of change? Can we change our nature?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Gene Cousineau) Listen to me - I have a son. I was terrible to this son. I was cruel. I was selfish. And there's nothing I can do to change that. But I don't want to be that guy anymore. And I pra"}
{"id": "754318426", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 29, "text": "Is that a question you ask yourself a lot?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "754318426", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 30, "text": "I know I ask that question", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "754318426", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 31, "text": "all the time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "754318426", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 32, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Oh, yeah. You constantly - yeah, you're kind of going, am I stuck?"}
{"id": "754318426", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 33, "text": "Yes, yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Am I stuck with these tools? Am I stuck with these neuroses? Am I stuck with..."}
{"id": "754318426", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 34, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...This personality thing?"}
{"id": "754318426", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Was writing on \"Saturday Night Live\" - did that involve the same kind of emotional, like, vulnerability and sharing that you're describing happens in the writers room for \"Barry?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's, like, I still have, you know, these problems or whatever. And, you know, again, it's - like I said, the writers room on \"Barry\" can just be like - it feels like a group therapy session where eve"}
{"id": "754318426", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 36, "text": "So one of the pleasures of watching \"Barry\" is that there's a lot of intentionally bad acting in it and some intentionally bad, like, monologues in it because it's about acting students who, you know, don't necessarily know what they're doing yet. And, of course, Barry doesn't really know how to act yet. Sometimes, he really nails it because it's so consonant with the emotions that he's feeling at the moment. But other times, he doesn't get it at all. My favorite not getting it at all moment is when he does a short scene from \"Glengarry Glen Ross.\" And it's the very famous scene. It's Alec Baldwin's scene where he's, like, the guy from headquarters who comes in to tell all these scam artists who are selling, like, terrible real estate, like, worthless real estate by phone to people. And he comes in to tell them that unless they shape up, they're fired.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was more like, here's a dumb idea we have, and how do we - you know, I mean, if it was a satirical thing. But never the kind of emotional stuff, in my experience there. But it is more of - if you"}
{"id": "754318426", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 37, "text": "So the first thing I wanted to do is play Alec Baldwin doing the role.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "754318426", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 38, "text": "OK. So here's Alec Baldwin in \"Glengarry Glen Ross.\" And this is a David Mamet play and then movie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "754318426", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 39, "text": "That is so funny. So so can you talk about deciding to do a really bad version of that very famous scene and the kind of, like, good-natured, like, I'm-here-to-give-you-prizes attitude that you have in acting it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're making me nauseous. Yeah."}
{"id": "754318426", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 40, "text": "The guy who's assigned to him - his hit - you know,", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He doesn't understand the context of it at all. Well, that was a thing that - it was helpful in the writing - was we said, we need to get the - Barry's problem in that episode is that he couldn'"}
{"id": "754318426", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 41, "text": "His handler as a hit man, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, his..."}
{"id": "754318426", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader Asks, 'Can You Change Your Nature?'", "question_index": 42, "text": "Bill Hader stars in the HBO comedy series \"Barry.\" He's nominated for five Emmys. We'll hear more of that interview after a break. And we'll hear from a former \"Saturday Night Live\" writer, John Mulaney. He's nominated for four Emmys, two for his work hosting and writing for \"Saturday Night Live.\" I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, his hit man agent, if you will, who's constantly bullying him to do stuff. And we - I remember Alec and I talking and saying that he should learn how to do this in the acting class. The acting c"}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. It's Emmy week on FRESH AIR, featuring interviews with some of this year's nominees. Let's get back to my interview with former \"Saturday Night Live\" cast member and writer Bill Hader. He's nominated for five Emmys for his work on \"Barry,\" which he co-created and stars in, and for being an executive producer of \"Documentary Now!\" On \"Barry,\" Hader plays a Marine veteran who served in Afghanistan, returned home with PTSD and feels lost with no purpose in life. At the suggestion of a family friend, he puts his war skills to use and becomes a hit man. One of his targets is an acting student, which leads Barry to take acting classes. He falls in love with acting. But an actor is supposed to reveal emotional truths, and it's Barry's job to hide the truth.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 1, "text": "The first time I interviewed you, I didn't know about this. But apparently, when you were on \"Saturday Night Live,\" you had a lot of anxiety about performing live and even had, like, a panic attack I think while the show was on - while you were...", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 2, "text": "...Doing a bit playing Julian Assange.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, on the air I had a panic attack."}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Can you describe what happened then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". No..."}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Well, that seemed like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "or that someone was going to storm the stage, that someone in the audience was going to run up on stage..."}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 5, "text": "...Unusual things to worry - like, a...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And, like, attack us, you know?"}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 6, "text": "I thought you'd be worrying about, you know, like, I'm going to forget my lines. I didn't know that you were worrying about...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it got crazy. It got a little..."}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 7, "text": "So I have to ask you about your eyes. On \"Saturday Night Live,\" you always - you have very big eyes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". You know? And he goes, well, that's an emotion you understand. We can write that."}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 8, "text": "And you're one of those people who can, like, raise one eyebrow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 9, "text": "And on \"Saturday Night Live,\" you always used your eyes great for comic effect. On \"Barry,\" staring into your - like, when I look at your eyes on \"Barry,\" like, sometimes your eyes are saying, like, thousand-yard stare, the scare of a soldier who's seen combat too long. Sometimes it's a stare of someone with just, like, so much existential dread. And sometimes it's the stare of somebody who has just become overtaken by rage and anger. And I wonder if you think about your eyes at all or whether they - it just kind of happens that your eyes communicate so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know?"}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Did you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No, I would always do - I always do, like, two takes."}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 13, "text": "Is that because you want to save time and money and get everything made on time...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm like, did I say everything right? Are we good? OK, let's move on. You know..."}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 14, "text": "...And all that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 15, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I just am like - I'm - and I mean this. It's hard to talk about this without, like, sounding, like, you know, you're being modest or - I'm quoting Alec on this. Alec is always like - he said, yo"}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 16, "text": "Just watching the takes is going to take forever.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Why would you do that? That makes - and now that I've done it, I'm like, wait. That's insane. You know, you don't need to do that."}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Bill Hader, it's been great to talk with you again. I regret that our time is up. I look forward to Season 3 of Barry.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Could you do less?"}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 18, "text": "Thank you so much for coming back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 19, "text": "Bill Hader recorded in June. He's nominated for four Emmys related to the HBO series \"Barry\" and one for IFC's \"Documentary Now!\" - on which he's an executive producer. We'll hear from another Emmy nominee, comic John Mulaney, who also got his start on \"Saturday Night Live,\" after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. This is a huge honor."}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 20, "text": "Let's continue our Emmy week series with another nominee - comic, writer and actor John Mulaney. He spent five years as a writer on \"Saturday Night Live,\" starting in 2008. He and Bill Hader, who we just heard from, co-created the character Stefon. Mulaney returned to host \"SNL\" twice in the past year. He's nominated for two Emmys for hosting \"SNL\" and two for his work on IFC's \"Documentary Now!\" Last year, he won an Emmy for writing his comedy special \"Kid Gorgeous.\" Here's an excerpt from his \"SNL\" opening monologue last February.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. This is a huge honor."}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 21, "text": "That's John Mulaney hosting \"Saturday Night Live\" last February. John Mulaney, welcome back to FRESH AIR. You've hosted \"Saturday Night Live\" twice in the past year or so. Did you write your own opening monologues after having written them for so many people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know that strange look of shame and unhappiness I have in my eyes at all times, especially after sex? And it was all forced on me at birth? What if you voluntarily signed up for it?"}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. Yeah. I wrote them, and a large part of them were pieces of stand-up I was doing at the time, both this year and last year. And it was very fun to do after writing so many monologues. I wrote a"}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 23, "text": "I never thought of it that way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So that was our sneaky 20 - he was 23 and I was 25, and that was our sneaky way of trying to always have a spot in the show. I, by doing the monologues, didn't realize that you will get to spend time "}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 24, "text": "So when you hosted for the first time, were you nervous about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Walking out and doing - it's not pure stand-up. Often, cast members join them, or it's a song. But to them, it's like, I'm supposed to stand on stage alone on a comedy show and, you know, deliver a"}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was terrified."}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 26, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was absolutely terrified. I mean, it was everything from, like, the feeling I had when I would have to play basketball in front of my family."}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 27, "text": "So you used to be a writer on \"Saturday Night Live.\" What did you do in your audition?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "how hard this was to be performing something you've written and wanting - you know, trying to listen to the jokes while making sure you're on your mark and looking into the right camera and then being"}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 28, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Even as they're questioning him, who's like, Tony Ramirez? Yeah, I remember him..."}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 29, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Good guy - you know? - worked on Tuesdays..."}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 30, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And the bartender who's shown a photo of the missing person and immediately recognizes her and everything about her, like, despite being a bartender in Midtown who sees thousands of people every ni"}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 31, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Like, yeah, blue shirt lady - nice lady, sat at the end of the bar. Why? Did something happen to her? It's like, yes, that's why the homicide detectives are speaking to you."}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 32, "text": "Well, we should take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is John Mulaney, a former writer on \"Saturday Night Live,\" a two-time guest host. He has comedy specials, including his latest on Netflix, which is called \"Kid Gorgeous,\" recorded live at Radio City Music Hall. So let's take a short break, and then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So as you just heard - my voice did not change that much - but I tried to throw in some slight character touches to it."}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 33, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is comic and writer John Mulaney. And he was a writer for \"Saturday Night Live\" for about five years. He's hosted twice in about the past year. He's also one of the voices on the animated series \"Big Mouth.\" And he's very, very funny.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So as you just heard - my voice did not change that much - but I tried to throw in some slight character touches to it."}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 34, "text": "You've described yourself as a song and dance man when you were a kid. So let's hear an excerpt of a musical you did on \"Saturday Night Live,\" and this was also from your second appearance hosting the show. And the musical is called \"Bodega Bathroom.\" And - you want to describe what it's about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So as you just heard - my voice did not change that much - but I tried to throw in some slight character touches to it."}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Which is just a hideous, filthy", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. It was kind of a - not a sequel but a spiritual cousin to a musical piece I did the previous year that I'd written with Colin Jost called \"Lobster Diner\" (ph) or \"Diner Lobster\" - I'm not sure wh"}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 36, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. It was kind of a - not a sequel but a spiritual cousin to a musical piece I did the previous year that I'd written with Colin Jost called \"Lobster Diner\" (ph) or \"Diner Lobster\" - I'm not sure wh"}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 37, "text": "...Bathroom in every way...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 38, "text": "...You can imagine.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, have you ever gone to..."}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 39, "text": "Oh, I really try not to do that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Have you ever gone to the bathroom in, like, a grocery store or a convenience store?"}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 40, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You either let me behind the soda fridge, or something very bad is about to happen."}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 41, "text": "OK. Here's my guest John Mulaney singing the Bodega Man from \"Bodega Bathroom,\" the musical.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't plan this. I left the - I tried to leave the house. You know I didn't plan this. But there was coffee, and my SSRIs have kicked in, and a lot of things are going on."}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 42, "text": "Did you ever want to sing - like, for real?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Bodega Man, singing) The Bodega Man can 'cause he mixes lots of pills and calls them Tiger sex pills."}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 43, "text": ". So you played yourself in what turned out to be the final episode of Pete Holmes' HBO series \"Crashing.\" You play, like, a well-known comic yourself - John Mulaney. And your assistant tells Pete Holmes that you want Pete Holmes to open for you. And he's just, like, amazed. Like, he's just left the Christian circuit. Now he's got this opportunity. And he shows up at the club only to be told by you - it's like, what? I didn't ask for you. I asked for, like, Ben Holmes from Chicago, Holmes from Chicago. I don't even know who you are. But then you have the assistant call all these other comics who you'd like to work with, and none of them are available because the show is just in a few minutes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, you can hear both the pathetic mid-range of my voice in that moment. But I believe you can also hear the absolute joy I have in being able to sing in a musical even if it's for 15 seconds. I r"}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 44, "text": "Is it Town Hall? Right, which is a...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, and it's at Town Hall, I believe."}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 45, "text": "...Prestige place. So you finally tell Pete Holmes, OK, you're going to open for me. But then moments before he walks on stage - because he's already really, like, unnerved by this whole experience - moments before he walks on stage, you give him this advice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, Town Hall's the..."}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 46, "text": "So were you chosen to do that part because you're not nasty?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As character) Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Ben Holmes."}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 47, "text": "Yes, well, well done.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think Pete wrote me into that episode and one previously because, as he would say, we're very close friends. And I try to be a very nice person. But someone like Pete knows that I can be extremely m"}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 48, "text": "That's really helpful, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. I forgot about the line don't be bad before he walks off."}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 49, "text": "Seriously? People really say that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Which I - oh, that's that's so common too, you know."}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 50, "text": "How is that helpful?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 51, "text": "Thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I said, I got - it's not. It's not. It's just - it's - I always thought that's kind of an unspoken thing in live performance that we would all like it to go really well. But yes, don't be bad is often"}
{"id": "754326887", "date": "2019-08-26", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "John Mulaney On Hosting 'SNL': 'I Had No Idea How Hard This Was'", "question_index": 52, "text": "John Mulaney recorded last March. He's nominated for two Emmys for his work hosting \"Saturday Night Live\" and two for his work on IFC's \"Documentary Now!\" Our Emmy week series continues tomorrow. We'll hear from three more nominees - Ben Stiller and Patricia Arquette, who are both nominated for the series \"Escape At Dannemora,\" and Phoebe Waller-Bridge, creator and star of the Amazon comedy series \"Fleabag.\" She stars as a young single woman who's a feminist but suspects she's a bad one. She's sex-positive but often doesn't enjoy the sex. I hope you'll join us. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our senior producer today is Sam Briger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our associate producer of digital media as Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. My thanks to Dave Davies for hosting last week while I was on vacation. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much for having me. It's a real, real pleasure."}
{"id": "754646299", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Phoebe Waller-Bridge", "title": "'Fleabag' And 'Killing Eve' Creator Phoebe Waller-Bridge Is Full Of Surprises", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. It's Emmy week on FRESH AIR, featuring interviews with some of this year's nominees. We'll start today's show with Phoebe Waller-Bridge, the creator and star of the BBC-Amazon comedy series \"Fleabag.\" The series has 11 nominations, two of which are for Waller-Bridge as best lead actress in a comedy series and best writing in a comedy series. She also created and wrote the first season of the hit series \"Killing Eve,\" which leads to her second nomination this year for her role as an executive producer of \"Killing Eve.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "754646299", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Phoebe Waller-Bridge", "title": "'Fleabag' And 'Killing Eve' Creator Phoebe Waller-Bridge Is Full Of Surprises", "question_index": 1, "text": "In \"Fleabag,\" Waller-Bridge plays a young single woman who's a feminist but suspects she's a bad one. She's sex positive but often doesn't enjoy the sex. She owns a cafe that's in financial trouble. She lost her mother a couple of years ago, and her father's response was to buy her and her sister tickets to feminist lectures. He also started dating their godmother. Phoebe Waller-Bridge's character presents a confident image, but she confesses what she's really thinking to the camera. Note to parents - in a few minutes, we'll be briefly talking about how the main character's sexuality figures into this series. Nothing explicit, but we thought you should know. Let's start with the opening scene from Season 1, which is about sex, too. Fleabag is at home in the middle of the night, waiting at the door. She's out of breath because she's been rushing to get ready.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "754646299", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Phoebe Waller-Bridge", "title": "'Fleabag' And 'Killing Eve' Creator Phoebe Waller-Bridge Is Full Of Surprises", "question_index": 2, "text": "Phoebe Waller-Bridge, welcome to FRESH AIR. So as we just heard, the series starts with sex. So let's start the interview there, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Fleabag) And then you get to it immediately."}
{"id": "754646299", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Phoebe Waller-Bridge", "title": "'Fleabag' And 'Killing Eve' Creator Phoebe Waller-Bridge Is Full Of Surprises", "question_index": 3, "text": "Your character, who you play, says - and I'm going to conflate here a sentence from the TV series \"Fleabag\" and also from your one-woman show. So your character says, I'm not obsessed with sex; I just can't stop thinking about it - the performance of it, the awkwardness of it, the drama of it - the moment you realize someone wants your body, not so much the feeling of it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "754646299", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Phoebe Waller-Bridge", "title": "'Fleabag' And 'Killing Eve' Creator Phoebe Waller-Bridge Is Full Of Surprises", "question_index": 4, "text": "So describe that kind of sexual obsession, where it's about the drama and the performance, being desired, but not so much, like, the feeling of sex itself.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "754646299", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Phoebe Waller-Bridge", "title": "'Fleabag' And 'Killing Eve' Creator Phoebe Waller-Bridge Is Full Of Surprises", "question_index": 5, "text": "And she kind of describes a problem that that can lead to. She says, I know that my body as it is now really is the only thing I have, and when that gets old, I might as well kill it. Either everyone feels this way a little, or I'm totally alone. So, you know, if you placed your value, your identity, on your sexual desirability, and then you passed the age where people see you as - sexual desirability being your defining", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "how many women I spoke to felt like that and that I could relate to that and that I felt like that, certainly through my 20s. And I just sort of thought that that would really key in - that'd be a rea"}
{"id": "754646299", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Phoebe Waller-Bridge", "title": "'Fleabag' And 'Killing Eve' Creator Phoebe Waller-Bridge Is Full Of Surprises", "question_index": 6, "text": "attribute then what do you have? I mean...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "how many women I spoke to felt like that and that I could relate to that and that I felt like that, certainly through my 20s. And I just sort of thought that that would really key in - that'd be a rea"}
{"id": "754646299", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Phoebe Waller-Bridge", "title": "'Fleabag' And 'Killing Eve' Creator Phoebe Waller-Bridge Is Full Of Surprises", "question_index": 7, "text": "Did you go through that in any way, large or small?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm hmm. You're screwed."}
{"id": "754646299", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Phoebe Waller-Bridge", "title": "'Fleabag' And 'Killing Eve' Creator Phoebe Waller-Bridge Is Full Of Surprises", "question_index": 8, "text": "So your character in \"Fleabag,\" she knows how to bring herself to orgasm, although her partners don't necessarily know how. And this seems to be the first period where women writers are actually writing about masturbation. The act itself is not a new thing, but I think being written about in comedies that are on TV, I think that's new. You know, it's interesting because in male coming-of-age movies and men stand-up comics are always talking about this subject - well, always - like, so frequently talking about this subject, but not so much - rarely, if ever - in movies or TV shows about women until recently.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it didn't even make any sense, you know. It's just like, why are we always naked everywhere? And which - you know, which I struggled with as well because, you know, I don't believe that - I do"}
{"id": "754646299", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Phoebe Waller-Bridge", "title": "'Fleabag' And 'Killing Eve' Creator Phoebe Waller-Bridge Is Full Of Surprises", "question_index": 9, "text": "It's like it was a secret", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know. It's so funny, isn't it?"}
{"id": "754646299", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Phoebe Waller-Bridge", "title": "'Fleabag' And 'Killing Eve' Creator Phoebe Waller-Bridge Is Full Of Surprises", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know. It's so funny, isn't it?"}
{"id": "754646299", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Phoebe Waller-Bridge", "title": "'Fleabag' And 'Killing Eve' Creator Phoebe Waller-Bridge Is Full Of Surprises", "question_index": 11, "text": "We were talking about how your character kind of defined herself by her sexual desirability. But in Season 2, she decided to stop having sex, or at least to stop having so much of it. And she says sex didn't bring anything good. It's in fact brought some things that were very bad. But in the meantime, she desires a young, handsome, witty priest who's going to perform the wedding ceremony when her father remarries. And she desires him so much, even looks up celibacy on Google to see if there's any way around it", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, you know, for women, it's this, yeah, transgressive act of, you know - of something naughty or in some cases something dirty, I think. You know, the - that women pleasuring herself was, like, a d"}
{"id": "754646299", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Phoebe Waller-Bridge", "title": "'Fleabag' And 'Killing Eve' Creator Phoebe Waller-Bridge Is Full Of Surprises", "question_index": 12, "text": ". There isn't, but she's still going to try. And I want to play a short scene in which she's visiting the priest, who's played by Andrew Scott. He recently gave her a Bible, which she's been reading. And so she's talking to him about it in this scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, you know, for women, it's this, yeah, transgressive act of, you know - of something naughty or in some cases something dirty, I think. You know, the - that women pleasuring herself was, like, a d"}
{"id": "754646299", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Phoebe Waller-Bridge", "title": "'Fleabag' And 'Killing Eve' Creator Phoebe Waller-Bridge Is Full Of Surprises", "question_index": 13, "text": "So in putting the priest in this position, I'm sure you had to think about what goes through a priest's mind when they're dealing with celibacy. Say they desire somebody. So what did you have to do to write that character, the character of the priest?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As priest) OK. Two."}
{"id": "754646299", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Phoebe Waller-Bridge", "title": "'Fleabag' And 'Killing Eve' Creator Phoebe Waller-Bridge Is Full Of Surprises", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, I'll tell you what. Let's take a short break, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Phoebe Waller-Bridge, and she created, wrote and stars in the comedy series \"Fleabag.\" She also created and wrote the first season of \"Killing Eve.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And then actually, you know, for me, there's - I'm not sure if it's a good thing that priests have to be celibate. And actually, the show, when it came out in the U.K., there were a few articles wri"}
{"id": "754646299", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Phoebe Waller-Bridge", "title": "'Fleabag' And 'Killing Eve' Creator Phoebe Waller-Bridge Is Full Of Surprises", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Phoebe Waller-Bridge. She created, wrote and stars in the BBC Amazon series \"Fleabag.\" She also created and wrote the first season of the BBC America series \"Killing Eve.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And then actually, you know, for me, there's - I'm not sure if it's a good thing that priests have to be celibate. And actually, the show, when it came out in the U.K., there were a few articles wri"}
{"id": "754646299", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Phoebe Waller-Bridge", "title": "'Fleabag' And 'Killing Eve' Creator Phoebe Waller-Bridge Is Full Of Surprises", "question_index": 16, "text": "Let's talk about your formative years.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And then actually, you know, for me, there's - I'm not sure if it's a good thing that priests have to be celibate. And actually, the show, when it came out in the U.K., there were a few articles wri"}
{"id": "754646299", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Phoebe Waller-Bridge", "title": "'Fleabag' And 'Killing Eve' Creator Phoebe Waller-Bridge Is Full Of Surprises", "question_index": 17, "text": ". So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And then actually, you know, for me, there's - I'm not sure if it's a good thing that priests have to be celibate. And actually, the show, when it came out in the U.K., there were a few articles wri"}
{"id": "754646299", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Phoebe Waller-Bridge", "title": "'Fleabag' And 'Killing Eve' Creator Phoebe Waller-Bridge Is Full Of Surprises", "question_index": 18, "text": "...You went to a Catholic school for girls. How did the sex segregation work for you? And was this - like, how, old were you when you were in Catholic school?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "754646299", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Phoebe Waller-Bridge", "title": "'Fleabag' And 'Killing Eve' Creator Phoebe Waller-Bridge Is Full Of Surprises", "question_index": 19, "text": "So right before you went to Catholic school, when you were 6 until you were around 10 - and correct me if this is wrong 'cause this is just something I read - that you dressed as a boy. You shaved your head and called yourself Alex.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". As well as our brother and - 'cause my brother had, you know, sisters around the whole time, and we had him. But it's something about, actually, socializing. And so Mom was really, really good about"}
{"id": "754646299", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Phoebe Waller-Bridge", "title": "'Fleabag' And 'Killing Eve' Creator Phoebe Waller-Bridge Is Full Of Surprises", "question_index": 20, "text": ". Now, looking back on those years, do you understand why you wanted to do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". As well as our brother and - 'cause my brother had, you know, sisters around the whole time, and we had him. But it's something about, actually, socializing. And so Mom was really, really good about"}
{"id": "754646299", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Phoebe Waller-Bridge", "title": "'Fleabag' And 'Killing Eve' Creator Phoebe Waller-Bridge Is Full Of Surprises", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "it at one point - and wore boxer shorts as swimming trunks. And we were just boys. I remember going into Gap once when I was about 7, and the guy coming up to me when I was with my mom and said, so wh"}
{"id": "754646299", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Phoebe Waller-Bridge", "title": "'Fleabag' And 'Killing Eve' Creator Phoebe Waller-Bridge Is Full Of Surprises", "question_index": 22, "text": ". Do you think if that was happening today that your parents would wonder if you were trans?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Convinced."}
{"id": "754646299", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Phoebe Waller-Bridge", "title": "'Fleabag' And 'Killing Eve' Creator Phoebe Waller-Bridge Is Full Of Surprises", "question_index": 23, "text": "So did...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And I just remember it never being a problem. I mean, there's the tomboy kind of thing. I mean, I wonder now if I had back then if I had - because I was very, very fervent about it when I was younge"}
{"id": "754646299", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Phoebe Waller-Bridge", "title": "'Fleabag' And 'Killing Eve' Creator Phoebe Waller-Bridge Is Full Of Surprises", "question_index": 24, "text": "What made you change? When you went back to Phoebe, were you also changing the way you dressed? Because the nice thing about when you're a girl or a woman, you can still wear man's clothes and - you know, because what are they? They're pants and jackets and shirts - you know? - and T-shirts.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "754646299", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Phoebe Waller-Bridge", "title": "'Fleabag' And 'Killing Eve' Creator Phoebe Waller-Bridge Is Full Of Surprises", "question_index": 25, "text": "You know? They're just kind of standard. When a man wears a dress, that's making much more of a major statement than when a woman wears, like, jeans and a T-shirt, which both...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "754646299", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Phoebe Waller-Bridge", "title": "'Fleabag' And 'Killing Eve' Creator Phoebe Waller-Bridge Is Full Of Surprises", "question_index": 26, "text": "...Genders wear.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know."}
{"id": "754646299", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Phoebe Waller-Bridge", "title": "'Fleabag' And 'Killing Eve' Creator Phoebe Waller-Bridge Is Full Of Surprises", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "754646299", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Phoebe Waller-Bridge", "title": "'Fleabag' And 'Killing Eve' Creator Phoebe Waller-Bridge Is Full Of Surprises", "question_index": 28, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's just such a basic form of expression, just what you wear. And I do feel like that's the irony is that now it probably feels more limiting - clothes-wise, anyway - to be a man than it would be to "}
{"id": "754646299", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Phoebe Waller-Bridge", "title": "'Fleabag' And 'Killing Eve' Creator Phoebe Waller-Bridge Is Full Of Surprises", "question_index": 29, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is - I was like, this stuff is fun. And then I just dressed like such a little tart for years and years and years."}
{"id": "754646299", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Phoebe Waller-Bridge", "title": "'Fleabag' And 'Killing Eve' Creator Phoebe Waller-Bridge Is Full Of Surprises", "question_index": 30, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And actually, that was the one thing that my mom - I do remember one - my - one conversation with my mom being like, you know what? I can't tell the difference between your bras and your T-shirts."}
{"id": "754646299", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Phoebe Waller-Bridge", "title": "'Fleabag' And 'Killing Eve' Creator Phoebe Waller-Bridge Is Full Of Surprises", "question_index": 31, "text": "How did you know you wanted to act?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "in terms of the way that I dressed, but it was definitely not boyish anymore. But I still feel more comfortable in, like, a hoodie and jeans than I ever do in, like, little kitten heels and a flowy sk"}
{"id": "754646299", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Phoebe Waller-Bridge", "title": "'Fleabag' And 'Killing Eve' Creator Phoebe Waller-Bridge Is Full Of Surprises", "question_index": 32, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And at school, it was just the most fun thing. You were allowed to swear in drama class, which was a big deal. And it was really social. And I just remember that feeling of being on stage. I played "}
{"id": "754646299", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Phoebe Waller-Bridge", "title": "'Fleabag' And 'Killing Eve' Creator Phoebe Waller-Bridge Is Full Of Surprises", "question_index": 33, "text": "Do you remember the three lines?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Yeah, and I just remember that feeling of just the - how exciting it is to be able to tell a story in front of people..."}
{"id": "754646299", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Phoebe Waller-Bridge", "title": "'Fleabag' And 'Killing Eve' Creator Phoebe Waller-Bridge Is Full Of Surprises", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "you have a visitor."}
{"id": "754646299", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Phoebe Waller-Bridge", "title": "'Fleabag' And 'Killing Eve' Creator Phoebe Waller-Bridge Is Full Of Surprises", "question_index": 35, "text": "My interview with Phoebe Waller-Bridge was recorded in May. She's the creator and star of the comedy series \"Fleabag,\" which is nominated for 11 Emmys, including two for Waller-Bridge as the star and a writer. Our Emmy week series continues after a break with Ben Stiller and Patricia Arquette, who are nominated for Emmys for their work on the Showtime series \"Escape At Dannemora.\" I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Or something. Like, I just was, like, a creep. I was just a creepy 8-year-old butler. But I do - I really viscerally remember the feeling of, like, I love being on the stage, and I, like - I heard tho"}
{"id": "754686095", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Bonnie Hunt", "title": "Ben Stiller Unlocks An 'Old-Fashioned' Prison Break In 'Escape At Dannemora'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Our next guest, Ben Stiller, is nominated for an Emmy for directing the Showtime series \"Escape At Dannemora.\" The series is nominated for 12 Emmys. Stiller is best known for his work acting in and directing film comedies and recently for playing Michael Cohen on \"Saturday Night Live.\" \"Escape From Dannemora\" (ph) is a change in direction. The seven-part series is based on the true story of two inmates who escaped from a maximum-security prison in upstate New York in 2015. The series isn't just about planning and executing the escape. It's also a character study of those two inmates and the prison employee who helped them escape. Both inmates, Richard Matt played by Benicio Del Toro and David Sweat played by Paul Dano, worked at the prison tailor shop where prison uniforms were made. They convinced the civilian employee who ran the shop, Joyce \"Tilly\" Mitchell, to get them the tools they used to escape by digging through the basement walls and steam pipes of the old prison. The two prisoners were able to manipulate her through sexual relationships with her. They told her they wanted to be with her after they escaped. What they really wanted was for her to be with them just long enough to drive the getaway car and get them to a safe place. She's played by Patricia Arquette, who's also nominated for an Emmy. We'll hear from her a little later. The series opens with Arquette's character Joyce \"Tilly\" Mitchell in jail, this time as an inmate, not an employee. She's being questioned by the New York state inspector general who's investigating the escape. The inspector general is played by Bonnie Hunt.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "754686095", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Bonnie Hunt", "title": "Ben Stiller Unlocks An 'Old-Fashioned' Prison Break In 'Escape At Dannemora'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Ben Stiller, welcome to FRESH AIR. And congratulations on \"Escape At Dannemora.\" You were able to actually shoot at Clinton Correctional Facility in Dannemora, where the story is set. Did you have any protection when you were shooting in there? Did you feel like you needed any? Did the correctional facility feel like you needed any?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Catherine Scott) Should you?"}
{"id": "754686095", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Bonnie Hunt", "title": "Ben Stiller Unlocks An 'Old-Fashioned' Prison Break In 'Escape At Dannemora'", "question_index": 2, "text": "You did meet with David Sweat, the survivor of the two inmates. He's the one who's played by Paul Dano. So he had, on July 4 - I forget what year it was - July 4...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know, we're all jammed into this little office. And then, you know, the inmates were looking at us. We were looking at them. And you know, they're human beings. They're people. But, you know, I'"}
{"id": "754686095", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Bonnie Hunt", "title": "Ben Stiller Unlocks An 'Old-Fashioned' Prison Break In 'Escape At Dannemora'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Thank you. He and some friends had robbed a fireworks - was it a fireworks and munitions store?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "2002."}
{"id": "754686095", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Bonnie Hunt", "title": "Ben Stiller Unlocks An 'Old-Fashioned' Prison Break In 'Escape At Dannemora'", "question_index": 4, "text": "And so they stole a lot of stuff, and they're going through what they got when a police car - well, it was actually a deputy sheriff - pulls up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I think it was a fireworks and gun store - something."}
{"id": "754686095", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Bonnie Hunt", "title": "Ben Stiller Unlocks An 'Old-Fashioned' Prison Break In 'Escape At Dannemora'", "question_index": 5, "text": "And do you want to describe the crime? It's pretty horrible.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "754686095", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Bonnie Hunt", "title": "Ben Stiller Unlocks An 'Old-Fashioned' Prison Break In 'Escape At Dannemora'", "question_index": 6, "text": "And the really - I mean, it's absolutely horrible that he shot this deputy sheriff. The fact that after shooting him 13 times, then he gets - then the killer gets in a car and runs him over. That's just twisted. I mean, that's just sadistic and twisted. And here you were talking to him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, it is. It is. They were a bunch of teenagers. I think he was - I'm not sure how old he was - maybe 20 or something like that. And he'd already had a record and had been in detention befo"}
{"id": "754686095", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Bonnie Hunt", "title": "Ben Stiller Unlocks An 'Old-Fashioned' Prison Break In 'Escape At Dannemora'", "question_index": 7, "text": "So how much of that did you keep in your mind? How much of it did you try to block out while you were talking to him and trying to get as much information and insight from him as you could?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "754686095", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Bonnie Hunt", "title": "Ben Stiller Unlocks An 'Old-Fashioned' Prison Break In 'Escape At Dannemora'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Let's talk about the crime that landed the other escapee in prison for murder, and that's Richard Matt, who's played by Benicio Del Toro in the series - and oh, man, talk about gruesome.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know - well, to me, that's what the interesting thing is about incarceration and kind of this story that we're telling and how people act in life. And they can do a horrible thing, and then life g"}
{"id": "754686095", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Bonnie Hunt", "title": "Ben Stiller Unlocks An 'Old-Fashioned' Prison Break In 'Escape At Dannemora'", "question_index": 9, "text": "He killed his former boss. I have to confess, I had trouble watching the scenes of the murder and torture, so I'd like to know how far you wanted to go with it because you really - I know you really want to convey the horror of this crime, the brutality of this person who you might have had some sympathy for in previous episodes because you don't show the murders till the end of the series. So you had a lot of decisions to make about how detailed to show the murder and the torture.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "754686095", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Bonnie Hunt", "title": "Ben Stiller Unlocks An 'Old-Fashioned' Prison Break In 'Escape At Dannemora'", "question_index": 10, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Ben Stiller. He directed the seven-part Showtime series \"Escape At Dannemora,\" which is nominated for 12 Emmys. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, it's sort of a judgment call. It came down more as we were editing it. It got less and less in terms of what we saw. But it's very brutal and, I mean, the intention behind it was, hopefu"}
{"id": "754686095", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Bonnie Hunt", "title": "Ben Stiller Unlocks An 'Old-Fashioned' Prison Break In 'Escape At Dannemora'", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Ben Stiller. He directed the seven-part Showtime series \"Escape At Dannemora,\" which is nominated for 12 Emmys. It's based on the true story of two murderers who escaped from Clinton Correctional Facility in upstate New York in 2015.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, it's sort of a judgment call. It came down more as we were editing it. It got less and less in terms of what we saw. But it's very brutal and, I mean, the intention behind it was, hopefu"}
{"id": "754686095", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Bonnie Hunt", "title": "Ben Stiller Unlocks An 'Old-Fashioned' Prison Break In 'Escape At Dannemora'", "question_index": 12, "text": "So one of the ways they escaped is that David Sweat found this, like, giant hot water pipe that was turned off for the summer. He cut a hole in that, crawled out of that. It led to a manhole cover that he was able to open, and that's what ultimately led them to escape. Did you literally shoot in that pipe?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, it's sort of a judgment call. It came down more as we were editing it. It got less and less in terms of what we saw. But it's very brutal and, I mean, the intention behind it was, hopefu"}
{"id": "754686095", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Bonnie Hunt", "title": "Ben Stiller Unlocks An 'Old-Fashioned' Prison Break In 'Escape At Dannemora'", "question_index": 13, "text": "So some of your shoot was at Clinton Correctional Facility, where the story actually happened. You were first denied permission. Then you got a personal meeting with Governor Andrew Cuomo, and he gave you permission. What did you have to do to convince him that this wasn't going to be another version of \"Oz\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we shot in a pipe. We shot in an 18-inch pipe, which is what they were in, but it wasn't that pipe. But we basically recreated the set based on the actual dimensions of the area that they were w"}
{"id": "754686095", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Bonnie Hunt", "title": "Ben Stiller Unlocks An 'Old-Fashioned' Prison Break In 'Escape At Dannemora'", "question_index": 14, "text": "During the escape - oh, so you filmed the escape with the real manhole.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I was very happy. But really, the fact that they allowed us to shoot - like, any of those scenes where Tilly and Lyle are going to work, and you see people going in and out of the prison or even j"}
{"id": "754686095", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Bonnie Hunt", "title": "Ben Stiller Unlocks An 'Old-Fashioned' Prison Break In 'Escape At Dannemora'", "question_index": 15, "text": "So Patricia Arquette gained around 40 pounds to play the prison employee. And what issues does that create for you as a director? Because there was also, you know, the scenes that are shot when she's in prison or jail. And so her weight changes depending on what the time is that you're shooting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We filmed him - when he comes - when they come out of the manhole, that's the actual manhole. And that's the actual street, and that's the actual - that's basically what happened when they came out of"}
{"id": "754686095", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Bonnie Hunt", "title": "Ben Stiller Unlocks An 'Old-Fashioned' Prison Break In 'Escape At Dannemora'", "question_index": 16, "text": "So it takes time to gain weight, and it takes time to lose weight. So just as the director in that situation, as opposed to being the person who has to eat a lot or stop eating", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "754686095", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Bonnie Hunt", "title": "Ben Stiller Unlocks An 'Old-Fashioned' Prison Break In 'Escape At Dannemora'", "question_index": 17, "text": ", what are the issues that you have to deal with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "754686095", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Bonnie Hunt", "title": "Ben Stiller Unlocks An 'Old-Fashioned' Prison Break In 'Escape At Dannemora'", "question_index": 18, "text": "Well, Ben Stiller, it's been great to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "eat. So - and Paul Dano was working out with a weight coach because he - he's, you know, not as built as David Sweat was because David Sweat built up in prison because he was afraid of getting beaten "}
{"id": "754686095", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Bonnie Hunt", "title": "Ben Stiller Unlocks An 'Old-Fashioned' Prison Break In 'Escape At Dannemora'", "question_index": 19, "text": "My interview with Ben Stiller was recorded in January. He's nominated for an Emmy for directing the seven-part Showtime series \"Escape At Dannemora.\" The series has a total of 12 nominations, including one for Patricia Arquette, who's nominated for her performance in this series. We'll hear from Arquette after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "754687960", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Patricia Arquette", "title": "Patricia Arquette On Embracing The Sexuality Of Her 'Dannemora' Character", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Our next guest on our Emmy week series is Patricia Arquette. She's nominated for two Emmys for her performances in two limited series, Showtime's \"Escape At Dannemora\" and Hulu's \"The Act.\" She won an Oscar for her performance in the 2014 film \"Boyhood.\" Arquette already won a Screen Actors Guild Award for her performance in \"Escape At Dannemora,\" which is based on the true story of a prison escape. She plays Joyce Tilly Mitchell, who helped two murderers escape from prison. They got her to help them by pretending they each loved her and wanted to be with her after they escape.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "754687960", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Patricia Arquette", "title": "Patricia Arquette On Embracing The Sexuality Of Her 'Dannemora' Character", "question_index": 1, "text": "As the story is portrayed in the film, both of the prisoners have sex with her. And it makes her feel sexy and desirable to have sex with them. And she does favors for them, including eventually getting some of the tools that they need to escape. She was even supposed to drive the getaway car, but she had a panic attack at the last minute and failed to show up. I want to play a clip from the very end of the series when she's in jail - your character's in jail - on the day before her trial. She's with a guard, and she asks him if it's OK if she read the statement that she's written to read for the judge. So here's my guest, Patricia Arquette.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "754687960", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Patricia Arquette", "title": "Patricia Arquette On Embracing The Sexuality Of Her 'Dannemora' Character", "question_index": 2, "text": "Well, it was a great performance.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As guard) It's worth a shot. Hey, sometimes I like to throw an inmate a little party the night before she gets out of here. Is that something you'd be interested in? I'll be around. Think about it."}
{"id": "754687960", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Patricia Arquette", "title": "Patricia Arquette On Embracing The Sexuality Of Her 'Dannemora' Character", "question_index": 3, "text": "How were you able to find something to relate to in her character? Like, what did you find you could pick up on and really understand?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "754687960", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Patricia Arquette", "title": "Patricia Arquette On Embracing The Sexuality Of Her 'Dannemora' Character", "question_index": 4, "text": "That's her husband?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I felt like Tilly was a real triangulator. I saw that Tilly was getting her needs met by these three different men. Like, in a way, if she could put these three men together, she would have her "}
{"id": "754687960", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Patricia Arquette", "title": "Patricia Arquette On Embracing The Sexuality Of Her 'Dannemora' Character", "question_index": 5, "text": "He's the prisoner played by Paul Dano.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that's her husband. But years later, we see that they've kind of fallen into this rut where she takes him for granted, and she's become basically his caretaker in some kind of way, and there's a "}
{"id": "754687960", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Patricia Arquette", "title": "Patricia Arquette On Embracing The Sexuality Of Her 'Dannemora' Character", "question_index": 6, "text": "You had to physically transform yourself to play Tilly. You gained 40 pounds. You wore prosthetic teeth. You had brown contact lenses. How does it feel to be in a different body when you're in a role? I mean, I feel weird when I put on clothes that make me uncomfortable. I mean, I don't feel quite myself. So, like, if you put on a body that's not yours, what does that feel like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. And then there's the third man, who is Benicio Del Toro's character, Matt. And I felt like with him, he scares her, but he's also the most alpha male she's ever been with. And she's used to b"}
{"id": "754687960", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Patricia Arquette", "title": "Patricia Arquette On Embracing The Sexuality Of Her 'Dannemora' Character", "question_index": 7, "text": "Oh, tell me about how people treated you differently.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, conceptually, as a woman, I was really excited to explore this middle-aged woman being a sexual being and being really comfortable with her body and being sexual and, you know, in general, being"}
{"id": "754687960", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Patricia Arquette", "title": "Patricia Arquette On Embracing The Sexuality Of Her 'Dannemora' Character", "question_index": 8, "text": "Patricia Arquette is nominated for two Emmys for her performances in two true crime stories - Showtime's limited series \"Escape At Dannemora\" and Hulu's limited series \"The Act.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They would look at you like, oh, are you still working? Or, you know - or they would just ignore you. Honestly, there's people who didn't know who I was at all, and they would ignore you in line or th"}
{"id": "754687960", "date": "2019-08-27", "guest": "Patricia Arquette", "title": "Patricia Arquette On Embracing The Sexuality Of Her 'Dannemora' Character", "question_index": 9, "text": "Our Emmy week series continues tomorrow with two Emmy nominees from the Netflix series \"When They See Us\" about the wrongful conviction of the Central Park Five. We'll hear from Ava DuVernay, who produced, directed and co-wrote the series, and Michael K. Williams, who plays the father of one of the boys. The series is nominated for 16 Emmys. I hope you'll join us. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Ann Marie Baldonado, Therese Madden, Mooj Zadie, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Joel Wolfram. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They would look at you like, oh, are you still working? Or, you know - or they would just ignore you. Honestly, there's people who didn't know who I was at all, and they would ignore you in line or th"}
{"id": "755019513", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Ava Duvernay", "title": "Ava DuVernay Focuses On The Central Park 5's Perspective: 'Now People Know'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The Emmy Awards ceremony is Sunday, September 22. This week, we're featuring interviews with some of the nominees. The four-part Netflix series \"When They See Us\" has 16 nominations. We're going to hear from Ava DuVernay, who's nominated for directing the series and for co-writing the final episode. She's also one of the series producers. \"When They See Us\" dramatizes the story of the Central Park Five. That was the name given to the five black and brown boys age 14 to 16 who, in 1989, were accused of brutally raping and nearly killing a woman who was jogging in Central Park. They became symbols of crime in New York City. Donald Trump took out full-page ads in the city's four newspapers calling for the death penalty. The five were convicted based on confessions they made shortly after they were arrested, confessions they soon after said were coerced. In 2002, the real rapist confessed, and his DNA matched the evidence found on the victim's body. He was a serial rapist who always acted alone, and he testified that the five had nothing to do with the rape. In 2002, after the five collectively served over three decades in prison, their convictions were vacated. A year later, they filed a civil lawsuit against New York City. In 2014, they collectively received a $41 million settlement, but they couldn't get back the years of their lives they'd lost in prison. Ava DuVernay also directed the film \"Selma,\" which dramatized a chapter of the civil rights movement, and \"13th,\" a documentary about mass incarceration and its echoes of the eras of slavery and Jim Crow. Ava DuVernay, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Did you know much about their story before you made this series?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "755019513", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Ava Duvernay", "title": "Ava DuVernay Focuses On The Central Park 5's Perspective: 'Now People Know'", "question_index": 1, "text": "All five were interviewed for the Ken Burns documentary, but one of them was voice only. He didn't want his face on camera. He wanted to keep his privacy. And I'm wondering how the five young - how the five men - I mean, they're in their mid-40s now - how they felt about having the story told again and having the dramatic version out there again with actors playing them because on the one hand, it's a story in which their charges were vacated. So they are not guilty. At the same time, they probably want to put the story behind them to some degree, if that's possible. So how did they feel about having you tell the story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Only what I knew as a teenager growing up in Compton. I was on the West Coast at the same time that these boys were on the East Coast in Harlem. I was all over the place. It was big news in Los Angele"}
{"id": "755019513", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Ava Duvernay", "title": "Ava DuVernay Focuses On The Central Park 5's Perspective: 'Now People Know'", "question_index": 2, "text": "So from having talked to the five men, what were some of the ways that you think the boys were manipulated by the police and prosecutors to give the false stories that they gave, to give the false confessions that they made?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they are all individuals, so they all felt differently about it. You know, you speak of Antron McCray, who did not go on camera for the Burns doc. I remember flying out to Atlanta to see him. Yo"}
{"id": "755019513", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Ava Duvernay", "title": "Ava DuVernay Focuses On The Central Park 5's Perspective: 'Now People Know'", "question_index": 3, "text": "You mean they were prompted to say things that they added?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Some of the ways that we show in the piece are that they were without their parents. They were not given food or water. They were asked to repeat the story. Details were inserted into the story throug"}
{"id": "755019513", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Ava Duvernay", "title": "Ava DuVernay Focuses On The Central Park 5's Perspective: 'Now People Know'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Ava DuVernay, and her new Netflix series dramatizes the story of the five men who were known as the Central Park Five. The convictions were vacated. They received a total of $41 million in a settlement from the city of New York. And she tells their story in this new Netflix series, and it's called \"When They See Us.\" We'll be right back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Stories were repeated and repeated again and again by both parties, and details were added through repetition. And so that was one of - that's one of the ways, and also to please who was asking them t"}
{"id": "755019513", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Ava Duvernay", "title": "Ava DuVernay Focuses On The Central Park 5's Perspective: 'Now People Know'", "question_index": 5, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Ava DuVernay. She produced, directed and co-wrote the new Netflix series \"When They See Us,\" which dramatizes the story of the five young men - who are now middle-aged men - who became known as the Central Park Five after they were accused and then, based on false and coerced confessions, convicted of raping and assaulting a woman who was jogging in Central Park. When - about 12 years later, when the convictions were vacated, they sued the city of New York and, years later, won a total of $41 million in a settlement. And, you know, after making these coerced confessions, they recanted the confessions. And they never backed down from recanting, even after they were in prison and some of them were offered, you know, parole if they just, you know, took responsibility for the crimes that they committed. They said, we didn't commit those crimes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Stories were repeated and repeated again and again by both parties, and details were added through repetition. And so that was one of - that's one of the ways, and also to please who was asking them t"}
{"id": "755019513", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Ava Duvernay", "title": "Ava DuVernay Focuses On The Central Park 5's Perspective: 'Now People Know'", "question_index": 6, "text": "A lot of the final episode is devoted to the story of Korey. And his story is just, like, particularly heartbreaking. He was charged only because he agreed to accompany his friend who was being picked up on - by the police on the night of the attack in Central Park. And Korey's name wasn't even on the list of people who they were rounding up. He was just - the cop said to him, why don't you come to the station house with your friend? And so to be loyal to his friend, he came along, ends up making a false confession, ends up getting convicted and ends up being the only one of the five who's tried as an adult and is sent to adult prisons, where he's repeatedly brutalized and assaulted. And also, I think what makes hard - it harder for him is that either he can't read well, or he can't read at all. I wasn't quite sure, like, if he could read at all. But that makes it harder for him to figure out what's going on sometimes. And also, he was born - or early in childhood had a hearing impairment, so his speech is a little bit slurred. And, like, I think all of those things must have added up to make his years just especially difficult. And I'm wondering, having met all of these men when they were in their 40s, if you feel that he is still, like, suffering a lot because of all of these extra things that he was exposed to.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. Even Korey Wise, who - 13-some years in prison in the worst prisons in New York state - never wavered from the truth, which was that he didn't do it, and lying had gotten him to that pla"}
{"id": "755019513", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Ava Duvernay", "title": "Ava DuVernay Focuses On The Central Park 5's Perspective: 'Now People Know'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Right, he did more years than the others.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. I mean, he's definitely suffering. He did 13 years. His childhood - his youth was stolen from him. He..."}
{"id": "755019513", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Ava Duvernay", "title": "Ava DuVernay Focuses On The Central Park 5's Perspective: 'Now People Know'", "question_index": 8, "text": "You mean it was even worse than you depict?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So yeah, I mean he's definitely affected by all of that and, you know, is trying to make his way through a new life. You know, he always says life after death, life after death. And this is what he is"}
{"id": "755019513", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Ava Duvernay", "title": "Ava DuVernay Focuses On The Central Park 5's Perspective: 'Now People Know'", "question_index": 9, "text": "More beatings?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was more. There was more."}
{"id": "755019513", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Ava Duvernay", "title": "Ava DuVernay Focuses On The Central Park 5's Perspective: 'Now People Know'", "question_index": 10, "text": "So Ken Burns' documentary was made before the city awarded $41 million to the five in the settlement of the five's lawsuit against the city. And also, when the Burns documentary was made, President Trump was not - he was just Donald Trump. He wasn't president yet. So first, I want to ask you about Trump - what it's like to see the role that he played in being a megaphone for finding the Central Park Five guilty before they were even tried. You know, just, like, days after they were arrested and charged, he took out full-page ads in all of New York's four major newspapers saying bring back the death penalty; bring back our police. And this was an argument for the death penalty, basically for children. I mean, they were 14, 15 and 16 years old. So I'm just interested in what it was like for you to see his role in the Central Park Five.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was more damage done to him, more darkness, more trauma. And so whenever he's in front of me, I just think he's a miracle. Even when he's not in front of me, I think about him so much. We've bec"}
{"id": "755019513", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Ava Duvernay", "title": "Ava DuVernay Focuses On The Central Park 5's Perspective: 'Now People Know'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Can you tell us something about their lives now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, well, he played a very famous role in the case, you know, with taking out the ads. But ultimately, you know, he's not the story. And so I made the decision just to keep it very - you know, use hi"}
{"id": "755019513", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Ava Duvernay", "title": "Ava DuVernay Focuses On The Central Park 5's Perspective: 'Now People Know'", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I love them a lot. You know, they're really - I mean, I could cry just thinking about them all. They're good, good guys. You know, three of them live in Atlanta. It's funny because, you know, Antron"}
{"id": "755019513", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Ava Duvernay", "title": "Ava DuVernay Focuses On The Central Park 5's Perspective: 'Now People Know'", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wait, in the back, too? Oh, no. Wait, what? And so, shortly thereafter, Raymond picks up, and he moves to Atlanta. And then a few months after that, Yusef picks up and moves to Atlanta. So three of th"}
{"id": "755019513", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Ava Duvernay", "title": "Ava DuVernay Focuses On The Central Park 5's Perspective: 'Now People Know'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Ava DuVernay, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's - people love him. They respect him. They look out for him. They give him a lot of love there. And that's why he likes it. It's home. So that's what the five of them are doing, you know, in diffe"}
{"id": "755019513", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Ava Duvernay", "title": "Ava DuVernay Focuses On The Central Park 5's Perspective: 'Now People Know'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Ava DuVernay directed, co-wrote and produced the Netflix series \"When They See Us,\" which is nominated for 16 Emmys, including two for DuVernay - best writing and best directing for a limited series. After we take a break, we'll hear from Michael K. Williams, who's nominated for an Emmy for his performance in \"When They See Us\" as Bobby McCray, the father of Antron McCray, one of the five wrongfully convicted boys. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "755021596", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "No Longer Omar: Actor Michael K. Williams On Lucky Breaks And Letting Go", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. It's Emmy week on FRESH AIR. The next nominee we're going to hear from is Michael K. Williams. He's nominated for his performance in the Netflix limited series \"When They See Us\" as Bobby McCray, the father of Antron McCray, one of the five black and brown boys who became known as the Central Park Five. They were wrongfully convicted of assaulting and raping a woman who was jogging in Central Park in 1989. The series has 16 Emmy nominations. Michael K. Williams became famous for his roles in fictional crime series. In \"The Wire,\" he was Omar, the fearless stick-up man who stole money from drug dealers. In \"Boardwalk Empire,\" he was Chalky White, a bootlegger who later runs a nightclub in Atlantic City. I spoke with him about his life in 2016, when he was co-starring in the HBO series \"The Night Of.\" He played an inmate who basically controls his prison block in Rikers Island, the notorious jail in New York City. We started with a clip from a scene in which he's giving advice to a newly arrived prisoner, a young man who is clueless about prison life. The young man is played by Riz Ahmed. Michael K. Williams speaks first.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "755021596", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "No Longer Omar: Actor Michael K. Williams On Lucky Breaks And Letting Go", "question_index": 1, "text": "Michael K. Williams, welcome back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Freddy) It doesn't matter. Makes no difference. See, there's a whole separate judicial system in here. And you've just been judged and juried, and it didn't come out good for you."}
{"id": "755021596", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "No Longer Omar: Actor Michael K. Williams On Lucky Breaks And Letting Go", "question_index": 2, "text": "I really like your performance in this series. What did you want to know about your character when you took the role?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "755021596", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "No Longer Omar: Actor Michael K. Williams On Lucky Breaks And Letting Go", "question_index": 3, "text": "You have family who's in jail now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, when I first got the part, it wasn't really - nothing I wanted to know about him. I'm so familiar with people like Freddy, you know, from my childhood and, you know, from my personal life. Y"}
{"id": "755021596", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "No Longer Omar: Actor Michael K. Williams On Lucky Breaks And Letting Go", "question_index": 4, "text": "So your character is in jail in Rikers Island...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I have a nephew, Dominic, Dominic Dupont, who I'm extremely proud of. If there were such a term as a model prisoner, he'd be the poster boy. You know, he went in at a very early age. He defended "}
{"id": "755021596", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "No Longer Omar: Actor Michael K. Williams On Lucky Breaks And Letting Go", "question_index": 5, "text": "...Which is a very notorious jail in New York City. Did you know people in Rikers Island when you were growing up? Did you hear a lot of Rikers Island stories when you were growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "755021596", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "No Longer Omar: Actor Michael K. Williams On Lucky Breaks And Letting Go", "question_index": 6, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded with Michael K. Williams in 2016. Eighteen months later, in January 2018, his nephew Dominic Dupont was released from prison after receiving a commutation citing his remorse and his nine years of work as a mentor to at-risk youth. He'd served 20 years of a 25-years-to-life sentence. He's currently working as a counselor to at-risk youth. In this next part of my interview with Michael K. Williams, we talked about a minister who helped him through a very tough time. We got into that by talking about an interview he'd done for a series he was hosting for Viceland TV called \"Black Market.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, D-block (ph). Yeah, House of Pain, or 4 Main House of Pain. You know, and I just want to take a moment to just say - to give a shoutout to all my brothers and sisters who may be incarcerated on "}
{"id": "755021596", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "No Longer Omar: Actor Michael K. Williams On Lucky Breaks And Letting Go", "question_index": 7, "text": "You interview a minister, Reverend Ronald Christian, who ran the Christian Love Baptist Church, a church that bordered Newark in Irvington, N.J.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, D-block (ph). Yeah, House of Pain, or 4 Main House of Pain. You know, and I just want to take a moment to just say - to give a shoutout to all my brothers and sisters who may be incarcerated on "}
{"id": "755021596", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "No Longer Omar: Actor Michael K. Williams On Lucky Breaks And Letting Go", "question_index": 8, "text": "And this was a church that was really important to you during a difficult period of your life. The episode is dedicated to the memory of this reverend. So in between the time that you recorded the interview and last November when he actually died - I don't know how much time elapsed, but you must have been really shocked. He was found dead on the floor of the church. Does anyone know what happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct."}
{"id": "755021596", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "No Longer Omar: Actor Michael K. Williams On Lucky Breaks And Letting Go", "question_index": 9, "text": "What did he do for you? You came to him during a difficult part of your life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "His heart just gave out, man. He got tired. You know, this was a man that, you know, I've never seen someone give so much of themself - 100%, night and day. He just never stopped. He was always there "}
{"id": "755021596", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "No Longer Omar: Actor Michael K. Williams On Lucky Breaks And Letting Go", "question_index": 10, "text": "When was this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I came around, I was broken. I came through those doors, I was broken."}
{"id": "755021596", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "No Longer Omar: Actor Michael K. Williams On Lucky Breaks And Letting Go", "question_index": 11, "text": "We're listening to my interview with Michael K. Williams, who is now nominated for an Emmy for his performance in the Netflix series \"When They See Us\" about the Central Park Five. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Around the second - more like third season of \"The Wire.\" I was on drugs, and I was in jeopardy of destroying everything that I had worked so hard for. And I came in those doors, and I met a man who h"}
{"id": "755021596", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "No Longer Omar: Actor Michael K. Williams On Lucky Breaks And Letting Go", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 2016 interview with Michael K. Williams. He's now nominated for an Emmy for his performance in the Netflix series \"When They See Us.\" Earlier in our interview, he talked about how he'd used drugs earlier in his life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Around the second - more like third season of \"The Wire.\" I was on drugs, and I was in jeopardy of destroying everything that I had worked so hard for. And I came in those doors, and I met a man who h"}
{"id": "755021596", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "No Longer Omar: Actor Michael K. Williams On Lucky Breaks And Letting Go", "question_index": 13, "text": "So why do you think you started using drugs when - or started using them again - I'm not sure which - after \"The Wire\" was on...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Around the second - more like third season of \"The Wire.\" I was on drugs, and I was in jeopardy of destroying everything that I had worked so hard for. And I came in those doors, and I met a man who h"}
{"id": "755021596", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "No Longer Omar: Actor Michael K. Williams On Lucky Breaks And Letting Go", "question_index": 14, "text": "...After you'd become successful because you'd think on the surface that that would be a period when your self-esteem would be, like, really good because you were so great in the role and people, like, loved you in it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "755021596", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "No Longer Omar: Actor Michael K. Williams On Lucky Breaks And Letting Go", "question_index": 15, "text": "Oh, you didn't feel worthy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. See, that's the trick. That's the trick. Feeling good, that's got to come - it's got to come from the inside out, not the outside in. And, you know, you, you know..."}
{"id": "755021596", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "No Longer Omar: Actor Michael K. Williams On Lucky Breaks And Letting Go", "question_index": 16, "text": "OK", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Hell no, I didn't feel worthy of opportunity like that. Then, you know, when I was given this character as Omar, I could've used it as a nurturing tool for myself. It could've been cathartic for m"}
{"id": "755021596", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "No Longer Omar: Actor Michael K. Williams On Lucky Breaks And Letting Go", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Hell no, I didn't feel worthy of opportunity like that. Then, you know, when I was given this character as Omar, I could've used it as a nurturing tool for myself. It could've been cathartic for m"}
{"id": "755021596", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "No Longer Omar: Actor Michael K. Williams On Lucky Breaks And Letting Go", "question_index": 18, "text": "You know, we were talking about how you didn't feel powerful when you were young, and playing Omar felt like a real stretch for you. And you had this kind of dissonance between how you felt as a person and how you portrayed Omar. Something I know for sure that must've taken a lot of courage was when you were, I guess, in your 20s when you decided to leave a job that you'd finally gotten with a pharmaceutical company to try to make it as a dancer, you know, to try to have some kind of career as a performer. And I think, you know, that always takes a lot of courage to leave a secure job, even if it's not a job you especially like, and just kind of, you know, jump into the water not knowing if you'll float or not.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...When you cut somebody to the white meat. It was a little too close to home, that character, and I didn't equip myself with the tools of how to wash that off my psyche."}
{"id": "755021596", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "No Longer Omar: Actor Michael K. Williams On Lucky Breaks And Letting Go", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, Terry, I was being a bit of a butt [expletive] when I did that to my - that was a way to stick it to my family, especially my mom. You know, in my family, there are three things that you're "}
{"id": "755021596", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "No Longer Omar: Actor Michael K. Williams On Lucky Breaks And Letting Go", "question_index": 20, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it was a combination of, like, you know, I don't want to get an education. I don't want to get a trade. I don't want to go to the Army. I want to do this. I'm going to dance. And, you know, lo and "}
{"id": "755021596", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "No Longer Omar: Actor Michael K. Williams On Lucky Breaks And Letting Go", "question_index": 21, "text": "What kind of dancing had you done before?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "?"}
{"id": "755021596", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "No Longer Omar: Actor Michael K. Williams On Lucky Breaks And Letting Go", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK, now, when I say I used to be a dancer, I need you to know that I was a complete and utter hack."}
{"id": "755021596", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "No Longer Omar: Actor Michael K. Williams On Lucky Breaks And Letting Go", "question_index": 23, "text": "We're listening to my interview with Michael K. Williams, who's now nominated for an Emmy for his performance in the Netflix series \"When They See Us\" about the Central Park Five. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I - you know, I have way too much respect for dancers and real choreographers to really call myself one. I just had a real good way with rhythm. I love movement. I love music. And I am a good mimic. I"}
{"id": "755021596", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "No Longer Omar: Actor Michael K. Williams On Lucky Breaks And Letting Go", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 2016 interview with Michael K. Williams. He's now nominated for an Emmy for his performance in the Netflix series \"When They See Us.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I - you know, I have way too much respect for dancers and real choreographers to really call myself one. I just had a real good way with rhythm. I love movement. I love music. And I am a good mimic. I"}
{"id": "755021596", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "No Longer Omar: Actor Michael K. Williams On Lucky Breaks And Letting Go", "question_index": 25, "text": "Let's talk about another turning point in your life. When you were 25 - I think it was, like, the night of your 25th birthday - you got into a bar fight. That's when your face was slashed with a razor. And your - the scar that runs down the middle of your forehead - that's become almost like a signature. You know, it's almost like you're known for that. It's part of your look, in a way. And you've managed to make it a strength instead of something horrible that you have to cover up that's going to hurt your career or anything like that. But when it happened, what did you think, assuming that you survived, because I think you were also cut in your throat that night?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I - you know, I have way too much respect for dancers and real choreographers to really call myself one. I just had a real good way with rhythm. I love movement. I love music. And I am a good mimic. I"}
{"id": "755021596", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "No Longer Omar: Actor Michael K. Williams On Lucky Breaks And Letting Go", "question_index": 26, "text": "How did you think that scar on your forehead, which is visible, was going to affect your career as a performer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, the second cut of that fight ends right at my jugular, yeah."}
{"id": "755021596", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "No Longer Omar: Actor Michael K. Williams On Lucky Breaks And Letting Go", "question_index": 27, "text": "What about the scar from your ear to your jugular? I don't think I've noticed that ever. Is that visible?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't think at all. You know, when I first got that scar, when I got jumped that night, I was just beginning my dance career. And I was - I had just gotten a gig as a model, like a - there was this"}
{"id": "755021596", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "No Longer Omar: Actor Michael K. Williams On Lucky Breaks And Letting Go", "question_index": 28, "text": "Did you think you weren't going to make it through that night?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because I purposely wear my beard. It kind of just hides it back there."}
{"id": "755021596", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "No Longer Omar: Actor Michael K. Williams On Lucky Breaks And Letting Go", "question_index": 29, "text": "Does she watch your TV shows?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I think - yeah, I think a lot of people thought that I wasn't going to make it to see 30. You know, my mom didn't think I was going to see 30, you know."}
{"id": "755021596", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "No Longer Omar: Actor Michael K. Williams On Lucky Breaks And Letting Go", "question_index": 30, "text": "Why don't we hear a scene from \"Boardwalk Empire\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "755021596", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "No Longer Omar: Actor Michael K. Williams On Lucky Breaks And Letting Go", "question_index": 31, "text": "And \"Boardwalk Empire\" was HBO's series set during the Prohibition era in Atlantic City. And Steve Buscemi played Nucky, who was, like, the king of Atlantic City...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "755021596", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "No Longer Omar: Actor Michael K. Williams On Lucky Breaks And Letting Go", "question_index": 32, "text": "...And basically controlled politics, controlled the bootleg liquor. You play the most powerful African American in the city, and you have a bootleg operation of your own. And then with Nucky's help, you run a very swank nightclub in Atlantic City. And so you've accumulated a lot of wealth. And in this scene, you're at a dinner party at your very well-appointed home with your wife and children. Your daughter's boyfriend, a medical student, is there, too. And you're feeling very self-conscious because you're from the South, you're from the country. And he's very urban. He's educated. He's refined. There's a sumptuous duck dinner on the table. Your wife asked the medical student to say grace. You're a little drunk, and you keep interrupting him and talking about how they should all be eaten Hoppin' John - rice and black-eyed peas. Here's that scene, and it starts with the boyfriend.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Atlantic City."}
{"id": "755021596", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "No Longer Omar: Actor Michael K. Williams On Lucky Breaks And Letting Go", "question_index": 33, "text": "That was Michael K. Williams as Albert - Chalky - White on \"Boardwalk Empire.\" So your character in \"Boardwalk Empire\" is from the South, from the country. You're very urban. You're from Brooklyn. What did you feel like you had to learn about the South and about Prohibition era to play Chalky White?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Chalky White) You stay right where you are, son, right there inside the house. Pretty clear who the field [expletive] is."}
{"id": "755021596", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "No Longer Omar: Actor Michael K. Williams On Lucky Breaks And Letting Go", "question_index": 34, "text": "So both in \"The Wire\" and \"Boardwalk Empire\" your characters are shot to death. In \"The Wire,\" you're shot by a kid. In \"Boardwalk Empire,\" it's almost like a firing squad, this, like - there's, like - I don't know - five gangsters who just kind of line up and shoot you, and you die off-camera. It kind of fades to black. Can I ask you what it's like to experience your character's death?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, Terry, there wasn't nothing I had to learn about the South. I'm first-generation Bahamian from my mother, but my father is straight from a small town in South Carolina called Greeleyvi"}
{"id": "755021596", "date": "2019-08-28", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "No Longer Omar: Actor Michael K. Williams On Lucky Breaks And Letting Go", "question_index": 35, "text": "Michael K. Williams, recorded in 2016. He's nominated for an Emmy for his performance in the Netflix limited series \"When They See Us,\" based on the story of the Central Park Five. He plays Bobby McCray, the father of Michael McCray (ph), one of the five boys who was wrongfully convicted. The series has 16 nominations. Our Emmy week continues tomorrow with two more nominees - Christina Applegate, who's nominated for her performance in the comedy series \"Dead To Me,\" and Natasha Lyonne, who's nominated both for her acting and her writing on the comedy series \"Russian Doll.\" I hope you'll join us. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our associate producer for digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, wow. That's a first. That is the first time I've ever been asked that question. And you mentioned who they got shot by, young - a black teen on the streets of Baltimore. Chalky White got shot by a"}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. It's Emmy week on FRESH AIR featuring interviews with some of this year's Emmy nominees. Christina Applegate is nominated as Outstanding Lead Actress in a Comedy Series for her performance in the Netflix series \"Dead To Me.\" She was 16 when she became famous for her role as Kelly Bundy, the daughter in the hit sitcom \"Married... With Children.\" She went on to star in other TV shows and to star with Will Ferrell in the movie comedy \"Anchorman: The Legend Of Ron Burgundy.\" The people behind her current series \"Dead To Me\" describe it as a traumedy (ph), a comedy-drama that deals with trauma and with guilt. Applegate plays Jen, a grieving widow raising two children. Her husband was recently killed in a car accident. She's expressing her grief through anger, like in the opening scene, when a well-intentioned neighbor knocks on Jane's door offering a dish she's prepared for Jen and her children.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Jen starts going to a grief support group, where she's befriended by Judy, played by Linda Cardellini, who explains she's there because her fiance died of a heart attack. But nothing is as it seems in the series, which is filled with surprising plot twists and character revelations. All of Season 1 is streaming on Netflix. Christina Applegate, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Jen Harding) Well, it's like if Jeff got hit by a car and died suddenly and violently - like that."}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 2, "text": "It's really hard to talk about the storyline of the series because there are so many reveals, so many kind of surprising twists and turns that I feel like almost anything I can say is a spoiler.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much."}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 3, "text": "What we can say for sure is that the two main characters, yours and Linda Cardellini's characters, are both dealing with grief. And what did you think of the idea of dealing with grief comedically?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 4, "text": "She's the creator of the series.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, as Liz always says..."}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Were you grieving for a person when you went through that or the loss of something else?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, she is the creator of \"Dead To Me.\" There is always - in that darkest parts of your life, you are trying to find the humor in life because you need some repose. And I think that the way it's writ"}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 6, "text": "You mentioned grieving for health reasons, for body reasons. I'm thinking you're probably referring at least in part to your double mastectomy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've lost people and, you know, had health issues and things like that all kind of around the same time a few years ago. So that was a really, really dark time, so I really related to that when I got "}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yeah. This was in 2008.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yes. That was a really tricky time."}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 8, "text": "So can I ask you a few questions about that? Is that all right? You've been public...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 9, "text": "...About it. A lot of women go through this, and I think it's helpful to hear people talk about it. There's nothing shameful about it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yeah. We haven't mentioned that yet. It's in the show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's nothing shameful about it, but there is that feeling that's there, and I think that's one of the reasons I wanted it to be in the show."}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 11, "text": "And we find out about it a little deeper in, but it's one of the things that has kind of interfered with intimate relations between your character and her now-late husband. So was it your idea to put that in the show?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, well, it's in the show."}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Yeah, so what were some of the things you felt you weren't being totally honest about because you were trying to be, like, a role model?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, and I think they beautifully put it in there - that it wasn't something that we harped on. It was something that Jen, like, very flippantly kind of mentions that - you know, like, wants to sort "}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 13, "text": "Yeah. So you had breast cancer in one breast, but then you got the genetic test. Your mother had had breast cancer, too. She survived, and you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was trying to be a role model, but I was also lifting - trying to lift myself up, you know, and denying myself sort of those feelings because those feelings were there. It's been many years for me, "}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 14, "text": "...Got the test, the genetic test, and found that you were positive for the BRCA1 gene, which is the gene that is believed to be connected to breast cancer. And that's what made you decide to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Oh, I didn't know about the ovarian. Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, and ovarian."}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 16, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. My mom had both breast cancer and ovarian cancer, and..."}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Was this a hard decision to make, or were you confident that you had to do it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...She's BRCA. My cousin passed away right after my surgery from ovarian cancer. She was BRCA. There's definitely, you know, apparently a tie between those two things. Your chances of getting ovarian "}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 18, "text": "So just one other thing I want to say about the mastectomy is that you went public with it, but I would suspect, in the back of your mind, you were wondering not only how it will affect your life and relationships, but will it affect your work? Will it affect your roles? And I love that you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was very against the idea of it for a long time. My doctors were trying to convince me, and I was very against the idea. And then it hit me one day just - do I want to be having this hanging over my"}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 19, "text": "Yeah, they do.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", it wasn't, like, a concern for me at all. And I didn't want to go public. I had actually kept it a secret for many, many, many, many months. And then I'd had two surgeries before my mastectomy. I ha"}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 20, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here, and we'll take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Christina Applegate. She stars in the Netflix series \"Dead To Me.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have no idea. OK, unfortunately - and had called. So they had outed me, basically, that I was in the hospital. And we had to make a statement, but I wasn't - like, my plan really wasn't to talk abou"}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is Christina Applegate. She stars with Linda Cardellini in the Netflix series \"Dead To Me,\" which has been renewed for a second season. All of Season 1 is streaming. So you became famous when you were 16 for your role as Kelly Bundy, the daughter on \"Married... With Children.\" I'm going to ask you to describe the character.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have no idea. OK, unfortunately - and had called. So they had outed me, basically, that I was in the hospital. And we had to make a statement, but I wasn't - like, my plan really wasn't to talk abou"}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 22, "text": "And I'm curious if you're going to use the word ditzy because that's the word everybody seems to use.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, Kelly Bundy."}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 23, "text": "This was, like, the first sitcom that it had.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ditzy - yeah, lazy thinker, I guess. You know, I had to play her as a genius. You know, in her own mind, she's a genius and a virgin, actually. Those were my little secrets that I had about her. You k"}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 24, "text": "What was the documentary you watched?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was the very first show that that ever aired on Fox, and it wasn't even really a network. Well, that's what they used to tell us when it would come time for negotiations. Like, but we're not really"}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Oh, I saw that. Yeah. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Metal Years.\""}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 26, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was a girl in it who - she had just won Miss Gazzarri's, and she was sitting there, I believe, in a white minidress, which I had never really seen anyone wear. They asked her, like, what she wan"}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 27, "text": "Let's hear a clip from \"Married... With Children.\" So this was on for 11 seasons from '87 to '97.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I went, that's the best thing I've ever seen in my entire life. And literally the next day, I went to the wardrobe people, and to everyone, I said, we got to - we're changing this up - going to ch"}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 28, "text": "'86 to '97 - OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was '86."}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 29, "text": "So, you know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think so - something like that."}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 30, "text": "Oh, you were 15? I thought you were 16.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was 15 when we started, so..."}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 31, "text": "Oh, OK. So, you know, the series is about a suburban family. The father's a shoe salesman. He hates his job. He's very condescending to his wife, who he expects to cook and clean, but because she sees herself as a bit of a suburban goddess, she hates to cook and clean, so she just sits around and watches TV all day. And you're the kind of sexualized daughter who you say is actually a virgin. So usually, when you entered a scene the first time in the show in each episode, there'd be, like, these cheers and whistles and everything. So here you are making your entrance in this episode of \"Married... With Children.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was 15 when we shot it."}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 32, "text": "I'm sure gadzooks is a word you say a lot.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Kelly Bundy) Oh, my God. I don't remember. Gadzooks (ph), I'm losing my short-term memories."}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 33, "text": "So what was it like to make an entrance with such hollering and hooting? And how much of that was real, and how much of that was, like, a sign flashing to the studio audience?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Gadzooks."}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 34, "text": "So the series was considered very raunchy in its time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no, no, no. There was no signs. This was all real. In fact, most of the time, we had to tell them to stop because it would go on for too long - for any of our entrances, for Eddie's, for mine. And"}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Oh, I know. I know. I know. But there was pressure from the right that this was like an anti-family show that was too sexualized. There was a letter-writing campaign. How much attention did you pay to that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's so tame compared to what's out there right now."}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 36, "text": "Made it seem more controversial and more edgy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "None. It actually made us more popular."}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 37, "text": "Who started the letter-writing campaign.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. We actually used to send like a fruit basket to Terry Rakolta every year."}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 38, "text": "So you were born into show business in a way. Your mother was an actress and singer. She sang backup on Leonard Cohen's first album. I thought that was interesting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "God bless her because thank you, we'd had a great run because of that."}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 39, "text": "Yeah. So tell us a little bit about her career.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She did."}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 40, "text": "That was you. That baby was you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Her career started in New York. She was in a group called the Bitter End Singers for many years back in the '60s, early 60s. And then she made this really beautiful album called \"You've Come This Way "}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 41, "text": "You were on screen when you were 3 months old and 5 months old. What were the roles, and were you playing your mother's child?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was me. That baby was me. There's only me. I mean, I do have a brother and sister through my father and his previous wife. But, you know, she was alone. And so that's kind of how I started doing "}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 42, "text": "Is it an infant walk-on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Did they call them roles? Yes, I was playing my mother's child. That's the thing. I was..."}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 43, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Christina Applegate, who became famous as a teenager for her starring role as the daughter in \"Married... With Children\" and many roles later. She is now starring in the Netflix series \"Dead To Me\" which has just been renewed for a second season. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it was - no, I was playing - it was with my mom. She was on \"Days Of Our Lives\" like one or two episodes or something, and That character had a baby. And luckily she had a baby. And then she did "}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 44, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Christina Applegate. She stars with Linda Cardellini in the Netflix series \"Dead To Me,\" which has just been renewed for a second season. All of Season 1 is streaming. So in addition to doing movies and TV, you did a Broadway revival of \"Sweet Charity.\" The music in that show is so good.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it was - no, I was playing - it was with my mom. She was on \"Days Of Our Lives\" like one or two episodes or something, and That character had a baby. And luckily she had a baby. And then she did "}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 45, "text": "Yeah. And you had to basically audition for the composer, Cy Coleman. What was that like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Isn't it the best? Oh, my God."}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 46, "text": "You said he was tough on you. What did he do that seemed so tough?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It was really difficult. The audition process was really was something else. You know, I'm a huge Fosse fanatic. I've - \"Sweet Charity\" was one of my favorite movies. \"All That Jazz\" is in my top fi"}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 47, "text": "Well, let's hear you sing from the cast recording.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Stop moving your arm. Stop doing it that way. Why are you singing it like that? Start it again. Start - like, really what you think would happen in those - in a work session - like, literally, like, t"}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 48, "text": "This is \"If My Friends Could See Me Now,\" which has such a great lyric by Dorothy Fields. So here's my guest Christina Applegate.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, boy."}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 49, "text": "That's Christina Applegate from the revival of \"Sweet Charity\" recorded in 2005. Do you just love Dorothy Fields' lyrics?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) If they could see me now, that little gang of mine, I'm eating fancy chow and drinking fancy wine. I'd like those stumble bums to see for a fact the kind of top-drawer, first-rate chums I at"}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 50, "text": "So you've been critical in tweets about President Trump, and you've been - you've gotten a lot of hate tweets as a result. And some people say, like, why do celebrities, like, weigh in with political opinions like this? Like, you know, what do you know? And what gives you the right? And you've had some...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God. The whole score is just so - it's so amazing. I mean, and with Cy's music, I mean - you can't go wrong when you hear, like, (Singing) doo-doo-doo-doo boo-doo. I mean, come on. It's like, I"}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 51, "text": "Yes, exactly, which was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And yet, you look on their Twitter, and they're doing the same thing. What gives you the right?"}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 52, "text": "That was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You work in a bank."}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 53, "text": "So one of the things you were criticized for is, like, you don't get it. And I think what you didn't get is, like, well, what is it really like to be, like, a working American? And you tweeted back, I grew up in an abusive home. Now I make it public. Don't you dare say I don't understand. Don't you dare say I don't understand the struggles. We lived on food stamps. Don't you dare say I don't know.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What are you talking about, man?"}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 54, "text": "Yeah. It was like your character...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "God, I was so mad that day."}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 55, "text": "But what's this about an abusive home?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was in a pissy mood - bad Christina."}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 56, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't want to get into that, but I will say that I come from - my past is no different, and also probably a lot darker, than a lot of people's. And I'm not going to say a lot darker than most people"}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 57, "text": "All right. Well, Christina Applegate, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And you know what? And if I hadn't, then I don't know if I could have played Jen the way that I did. So, like, that's how I kind of feel about that."}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 58, "text": "My interview with Christina Applegate was recorded in June. She's nominated for an Emmy in the category Outstanding Lead Actress in a Comedy Series for her performance in the Netflix series \"Dead To Me.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 59, "text": "Our series of interviews with Emmy nominees continues through Labor Day. If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed in the series with Bill Hader, John Mulaney, Phoebe Waller-Bridge, Ben Stiller, Patricia Arquette, Ava DuVernay and Michael K. Williams, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "755381267", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Suzy Nakamura", "title": "'Dead To Me' Star Christina Applegate: Loss 'Lives In The Fibers Of Your Being'", "question_index": 60, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Kenzel, Ann Marie Baldonado, Therese Madden, Mooj Zadie, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Joel Wolfram. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The Emmy Awards are coming up soon - Sunday, September 22. This week we're featuring interviews with some of the nominees. Our first interview today is with Natasha Lyonne, who's nominated in two categories - Outstanding Lead Actress in a Comedy Series and Outstanding Writing in a Comedy Series. Both are for her work on the Netflix series \"Russian Doll,\" which she co-created. When the series begins, she's at a party for her 36th birthday, drinking and smoking cocaine-laced marijuana. A little later in the episode, she leaves the party. And while crossing the street, she's hit by a taxi and killed. But then she finds herself back at the party. And a few minutes later, she dies again. Here she is describing the situation to a family friend who's a therapist.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 1, "text": "As we'll soon hear, the idea of dying and coming back to life has personal resonance for Lyonne. She started acting as a child. When she was 6, she was a recurring character on \"Pee-wee's Playhouse.\" She was the narrator in Woody Allen's \"Everybody Says I Love You.\" She co-starred in \"American Pie\" and starred in \"But I'm A Cheerleader\" and the \"Slums Of Beverly Hills.\" In 2014, she received her first Emmy nomination for her role as Nicky Nichols in \"Orange Is The New Black.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Nadia Vulvokov) OK. So then I'm back at the party. I try to leave, you know, fall down the stairs, break my neck again - right? So I died, I died, I died, I died - that's four times. Also - also, "}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 2, "text": "Natasha Lyonne, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Nadia Vulvokov) OK. So then I'm back at the party. I try to leave, you know, fall down the stairs, break my neck again - right? So I died, I died, I died, I died - that's four times. Also - also, "}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 3, "text": "We've all had experiences that nearly killed us - the car crash that was narrowly avoided, the stairs we almost fell down. I'm sure you experienced those. But you probably also experienced the kind of near-death from drugs and being hospitalized, and I'm wondering how that fed the premise of the show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 4, "text": "I'm wondering if you gave certain of your own characteristics, your personality traits, to the character or perhaps certain characteristics that you've outgrown. For example, like, your character is determined not to have connections to other people. She doesn't want to be in a committed relationship until she's in her 60s and preparing for a time when she'll need someone to help take care of her. She sees relationships as impinging on her freedom and pushes people away. Did you go through that kind of phase yourself and give those characteristics to the character?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, I mean, certainly my very real experiences wildly informed the things that felt topical to me, you know, that felt very tangible, that might otherwise feel esoteric or out of reach, ki"}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, partially. I think that's definitely a philosophy that I have almost more as a feminist stance of sort of, who are you to determine my timeline? You know, like, why is that legal? I mean, my"}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 6, "text": "So did you want to be a tough guy when you were growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it was a sort of [expletive]-all-that mentality."}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know that that's really changed, Terry..."}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Seriously, did you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know..."}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Yes. Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Go about it a little less self-destructive..."}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Now I'm just a tough guy at all you guys, you know..."}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Not me, of course. Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Not you, of course, because you're a giant..."}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Yeah. How much can I take is really modeled on a boxing model, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...But, yeah. I think - yeah, for a long time I think I thought being a tough guy meant being tough at oneself. Like, how much can I take? And now I think I see it, you know, quite differently."}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 13, "text": "So you were preparing to be the tough guy because your father was the boxer. And, like, enduring in the ring and taking it was part of the ethic you were exposed to, but also the larger ethic of, like, you have to survive on your instincts to survive the Holocaust. Most people die. But, you know, maybe you can survive. And, you know, it's a dangerous time, it always will be because you're Jewish. Sounds like a very frightening environment to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A little bit. And I think it's, you know - deeper than that, I think I'm sort of, you know - my lineage is dark survivors. I mean, I come from real Auschwitz stock. So, you know, Hitler was a big play"}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 14, "text": "...Grow up in where you're always, like, bracing yourself for something horrible to happen...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 15, "text": "...A physical blow or just, you know, people, like, finding out who you are and killing you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know..."}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 16, "text": "So when you took LSD, did you have, like, good trips in which you thought, like - that seemed like transcendent experiences? Or did you have, like, nightmarish...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, the headline is everything's fine now. You know what I mean? People love \"Russian Doll,\" so it's - the good days are upon us. You know, I certainly think it made me very curious to sort of, lik"}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's a funny thing to talk about because, from where I'm sitting now, I'm so glad for all of these experiences. You know, they really are the things that, you know, shaped a very specific po"}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Sort of psychedelics that - what can I tell you? Sometimes we're up and sometimes we're down, Terry. What can you do? You got a good batch of acid..."}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 19, "text": "I'm sure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You get a bad batch of shrooms. Who knows where it takes you? That's what my rabbi always used to say."}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 20, "text": ". So you studied Talmud pretty seriously because...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You get a bad batch of shrooms. Who knows where it takes you? That's what my rabbi always used to say."}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 21, "text": "...When you were young, you were in Israel...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah..."}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 22, "text": "When you weren't dropping...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. When I wasn't dropping acid..."}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Well, maybe the two went together nicely for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I was studying Talmud. That's what I always say."}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 24, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nobody knows."}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 25, "text": "OK. OK. So - I'm sorry, this is another addiction-related question. But...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm going to do the rest of it like this."}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 26, "text": "No. I've spoken to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure. Why stop now?"}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 27, "text": "...I've spoken to people who had, like, opioid issues. You know, like, they had been addicted to opioids, but then they ended up, like, in the hospital or - with a broken arm or something. And they - the doctor wanted to put them on painkillers. And they, like, didn't want to go on painkillers because they knew they'd have a problem with it. So when you had, like, your heart surgery, did the doctor know that you had been addicted? And was it an issue yet? Were medical people thinking that way yet? Like, maybe you shouldn't be on a painkiller, but after heart surgery, you probably kind of have to be. Like, how is that handled?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 28, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I was like, but this is terrifying. They were like, what are you doing?"}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 29, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Natasha Lyonne. And she co-created, co-writes, she's directed episodes of and stars in the Netflix series \"Russian Doll.\" She also is one of the stars of \"Orange Is The New Black.\" We're going to take a short break and we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I was like, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm nervous, you know. And, yeah, I made it through somehow. And then on the other side of it, yes, you know, I was heavily monitored. As you can tell by today, i"}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 30, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. My guest is Natasha Lyonne, and she co-created and stars in the Netflix series \"Russian Doll.\" And she's one of the stars of \"Orange Is The New Black.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I was like, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm nervous, you know. And, yeah, I made it through somehow. And then on the other side of it, yes, you know, I was heavily monitored. As you can tell by today, i"}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 31, "text": "You've mentioned that you lived with your parents in Israel a couple of years. You went to Yeshiva, which is a Hebrew school. And you studied Talmud there. So were your parents Orthodox?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I was like, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm nervous, you know. And, yeah, I made it through somehow. And then on the other side of it, yes, you know, I was heavily monitored. As you can tell by today, i"}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 32, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they were both really the black sheep of these highly Orthodox families. But even still, you know, they were pretty religious. And I would say that, later in life, you know, it became a real sou"}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 33, "text": "When you were a child, your parents got you a deal with the Eileen Ford Modeling Agency. How old were you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And so as - I began to sort of understand the world I was really in versus the one I was sort of being led to believe I was in. And, you know, I would see, like, the, you know, alcoholism and ego a"}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 34, "text": "So it was before \"Pee-wee's Playhouse\" that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm trying to remember. I mean, I was probably 6, 7, 8 - whatever - 6. By 8, I think I was - no. By 6, maybe, I was on \"Pee-wee's Playhouse.\" So maybe I was younger. Maybe I was 4."}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 35, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think so. I think I was - you know how it works, Terry. I was a model first, then I segued into acting. So..."}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 36, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And now, you know, I'm segueing - directing, writing, producing, what have you."}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 37, "text": "So what did you do when you were 4 and you were signed to - did you get commercials?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's the life of a child model, baby."}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 38, "text": "So were you doing this 'cause your parents saw it as a payday?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I did so many commercials. I remember I did, like, 60 commercials, all of which I had a fantasy would go into my Lamborghini that I wanted to buy - my Lambo. But nope, they just went into the fa"}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 39, "text": "I want to talk a little bit about \"Orange Is The New Black\" because we talked before about, you know, having an addiction problem earlier in your life. And in \"Orange Is The New Black,\" which, for anyone who isn't aware, is set in a women's prison. And the main character in it is in the prison for having been involved with selling heroin. And your character in it is someone who's been addicted, and even in prison, she's involved in a scheme to sell heroin. But I'm wondering what it was like for you to get the part in the series and play somebody who'd been an addict and who was now in prison. So how did you get the part? Did they know your past, and did that contribute at all to them thinking of you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think - you know, I think they had their own sort of grandiose fantasies. Which is, I think, something that I really rebelled against, you know, as I became a teenager with kind of self will. "}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 40, "text": "In what way was it a way back to life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Definitely spent a few nights in holding cells. I got a call out of the blue, an offer to be in the finale of \"Weeds,\" this two-part finale of Jenji Kohan's show, \"Weeds.\" And I was so excited. In it,"}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 41, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it was just really a safe place. It was not shame-based. You know, when you talk about the sort of stereotype of femininity, it wasn't something that I felt like I had to, you know, hide a p"}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 42, "text": "I want to get back to \"Russian Doll,\" your new series on Netflix. So your character in \"Russian Doll\" says the line, I have the internal organs of a man twice my age.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Anyway, you know, this was not a show where that was going to be a problem, a cast of women that were just all so exceptional in their own ways that it was sort of realizing that, you know, we'd been "}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 43, "text": "You wrote that? I was wondering if you wrote that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "say."}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 44, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 45, "text": "And I think it's so interesting that you said of a man twice my age, as opposed to the internal organs of a woman twice my age. So tell us about saying of a man.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 46, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, like, those speeches, those are really - those are the ones who are really - that about the one impractical application, or this, the - you know, I have the internal organs of a man twic"}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 47, "text": ". Sorry for laughing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so I think we know where that line comes from. I think I often say it because, you know, I'm so cherubic in the face. And so it's funny that people tend to forget that there's nothing but, you kno"}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 48, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I associate that with - I don't know. I just - enough. Enough with all the he, she, what have you. Come on. It's 2019, I think. And yeah, I like the idea of a character that kind of refers to them"}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 49, "text": "Well, Natasha Lyonne, it's been great to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It just - these are the things you fight for."}
{"id": "755383547", "date": "2019-08-29", "guest": "Natasha Lyonne", "title": "Natasha Lyonne On Being A 'Tough Guy' And Finding Herself Inside 'Russian Doll'", "question_index": 50, "text": "My interview with Natasha Lyonne was recorded in May. She's nominated for Emmys in two categories for her work on \"Russian Doll,\" outstanding lead actress and outstanding writing for a comedy series. After we take a short break, we'll hear from Christina Applegate, who's also nominated in the category outstanding lead actress in a comedy series, for her performance in \"Dead To Me.\" I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 0, "text": "Randy Rainbow, welcome to FRESH AIR. I think you are so funny and so much fun to watch. Thank you for being on our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Long-winded tweets with no spell check corrections..."}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 1, "text": "You have an orchestra behind you when you're singing in your videos. Are those kind of like karaoke versions of the showtunes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. It's my honor to be with you."}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 2, "text": "And are you going to be sued by any of the estates...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They are, yes. They are ripped karaoke versions that I play with and sort of fine-tune and adjust to be, you know, unique to my videos."}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 3, "text": "...Of composers' work you're using?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, now that..."}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 4, "text": "Oh, good.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Can we go to the next question? No, I do have a very fancy lawyer now, and what I do falls pretty safely under fair use, you know..."}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 5, "text": "Good. Please do not deny us these.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...With parody and all of that."}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yeah. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So far, so good."}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 7, "text": "Right. I don't think Sondheim is going to be suing you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. We'll see after this interview airs. Thanks a lot."}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 8, "text": "...Because he is a fan of your work. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, thankfully."}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 9, "text": "That's great that the songwriters really love your work.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Can you believe it? You mentioned Sondheim, but I have, I'm happy to say, heard from most of the composers that I have parodied - everyone from Sondheim to Stephen Schwartz to Andrew Lloyd Webber. So "}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 10, "text": "Have you learned a lot about writing lyrics from doing this? What I mean is, like, you're patterning your lyrics on some of, like, the best lyricists who've ever written for the stage, and you're frequently following their rhyme schemes, which are sometimes pretty complicated depending on whose work you're doing. But have you learned a lot from using the greatest lyricists' work as your template to write your own lyrics?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 11, "text": "So I know Sondheim, one of your favorite lyricists, loves puzzles, but you loved puzzles, too, as a kid, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, absolutely. I have, and I've pushed myself to do so because I always considered song parody kind of cheap, and I've always been, part of me, a little embarrassed that I do it and that I'm, you k"}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 12, "text": "Does he ever give you advice on lyrics?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did have a thing for mazes. When I was a kid, I remember drawing little mazes constantly and puzzles. I loved that. And I remember, to sort of tie it together, I - when I started listening to Sondhe"}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 13, "text": "He knows who the master is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He knows better than that, Terry. No, he..."}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He does. He's very generous. He's extremely generous. And he will compliment me all the time and say, your lyrics are so strong. And, you know, how do you do it? To which I say, Steve, you know, you w"}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 15, "text": "Let's take a short break, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Randy Rainbow. And he does really funny song parodies about, typically, President Trump or sometimes Mike Pence. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have a gift. I'm not about to explain it to you."}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Randy Rainbow. And he writes and records song parodies, usually taking Broadway melodies and setting his own satirical lyrics to them. Typically, the songs are about President Trump or politics. And he posts them on YouTube. They get a gazillion views. So, you know, you've mentioned that a lot of songwriters like your work. I know a lot of Broadway people love your work. What about President Trump and Vice President Pence? Have they...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have a gift. I'm not about to explain it to you."}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 17, "text": "They're big fans.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They're big fans."}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 18, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We're all having brunch next Sunday."}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 19, "text": "And they brought pink eyeglasses in honor of yours as a tribute to you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 20, "text": "Uh-huh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 21, "text": "Haven't gotten that far yet.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know? I haven't heard from anyone in the administration. You know, I've heard through the grapevine that people in the administration are fans, but no one has directly reached out to me. I'm tr"}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 22, "text": "OK. OK. So let's hear another song. And this is to the tune of \"Sixteen Going On Seventeen\" from \"The Sound Of Music.\" And the song is about President Trump's endorsement of Roy Moore, the former chief justice of the Alabama Supreme Court. And this is when Moore was running for the Senate against Democrat Doug Jones. And Trump endorsed Moore in spite of the fact that several women had come forward and accused Moore of sexual misconduct with them when they were underage girls. So the song is about those girls, and it starts off with a verse about the girl who became his wife. And the setup is that Randy Rainbow is interviewing Kellyanne Conway, who is defending Trump's endorsement of Moore. So it - we're going to start by hearing Kellyanne.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, but I'm working on it."}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 23, "text": "So that's Randy Rainbow, and if you want to see more of his videos, they're all on YouTube. And that was recorded December 11, 2017. So \"Sixteen Going On Seventeen\" seems like an obvious song choice to use for the Roy Moore story. But how did you make that connection in your mind? It seems obvious after somebody makes the connection for you, but how did you think of using that melody?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) She was..."}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 24, "text": "Have you heard from Roy Moore?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know what? I think that one was a request. Now I have this nice following, so sometimes, I will take requests from my fans online. And I think that was one of them."}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 25, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, surprisingly."}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 26, "text": "OK. Sensibility-wise, you are, like, the opposite of Donald Trump. But in spite of being so different from Trump, you've said that Trump reminds you of your father.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hasn't been to one of my meet and greets."}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 27, "text": "How?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Trump is absolutely a carbon copy of my father."}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 28, "text": "So what were the similarities?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And - well, just behaviorally. And so much so that my father, who's no longer with us - he actually died shortly after Trump's election - but his campaign was going on, you know, at the end of his lif"}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 29, "text": "Was there this feeling in the house that unless your father was pleased that there would be, like, a dark cloud hanging over the family?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just that kind of phony, you know, bravado - and there's just like a - you know, I hate to put down any group of people, but there's just a generation of, like, New York guy that - he just came from t"}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 30, "text": "How - what was his reaction to you being gay?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely, yeah. And it was a full-time job to sort of, you know, try to brush the cloud away. And, you know, that's why I was really happy, at 21, to leave the house. And that's kind of where - when"}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 31, "text": "But your mother said she always knew. She was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was - you know, for as negative a force he was in my life, he was also - he was not the worst. He was very tolerant and did not mind at all that I was gay. He also claims to have had no idea growin"}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 32, "text": "Yeah, because that's the way it works.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she made me this gay."}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 33, "text": "So what were the first musicals your mother took you to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 34, "text": "You always wanted to get back to New York and try Broadway. So when you got to New York, when you were in your 20s, what did you audition for? And what were those auditions like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The first musicals - well, yeah. I have this thing with \"Cats.\" No shade to Andrew Lloyd Webber, but, you know, back to Sondheim, I remember being in New York and seeing the commercial for \"Into The W"}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 35, "text": "Did any of the, like, food, restaurant, bar kind of jobs you have have a theatrical aspect to it - like a piano bar or anything like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I came to New York, and I put the whole thing on hold because I was a terrified 21-year-old and more like, you know, 15 because I just had not at all grown up. I don't know what gave me the courage to"}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 36, "text": "OK. That's - you don't have what it typically takes to work there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the first restaurant I worked in was Hooters."}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 37, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's very rude of you to say."}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 38, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But no. I - when I first moved to New York, my dear friend from childhood was working at Hooters as a waitress and said the manager here is a gay guy. And if you come in, he'll probably give you a job"}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 39, "text": "So what...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So that was the first thing. But that led to my working at the restaurant in Chelsea, which eventually led - because of a friend who worked there then started working at a production office, a Broadwa"}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 40, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Kind of where I got my foot back in show business a little bit. They were working on shows at the time like \"Hairspray\" and the revival of \"Sweeney Todd\" with Patti LuPone."}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 41, "text": "Did you talk with them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So for me, it was heaven because I was sitting behind the desk. And at any given moment, Patti LuPone would call or Elaine Stritch would walk through the front door. And I couldn't get over my life."}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 42, "text": "Do you know Patti LuPone better now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A little bit - I was so scared out of my wits that, you know, not much came out. But, yeah, I had some interactions."}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 43, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Do I know her better now? No, I don't. But I did do - before Trump came along, and I was doing those more nonpolitical videos, I did a series of videos where I would lip-sync to Patti LuPone's autobio"}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 44, "text": "That's hilarious, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know, the audiobook of it."}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 45, "text": "How did you just - how did you think of doing that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that was actually a fairly - at least among the gay and Broadway communities was kind of a fairly successful series for me. And I understand that she was a fan of that. I hope so."}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 46, "text": "No.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I think I was just drunk one night and listening to her - have you heard her autobiography - the audiobook..."}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 47, "text": "No, I haven't.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Version?"}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 48, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I highly recommend it. It's eight years of Patti LuPone just letting everyone have it and just..."}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 49, "text": "My guest is Randy Rainbow. We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, just - it was - it just - it moved me to sort of act it out and add some drama to it and some visuals."}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 50, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Randy Rainbow. And he writes and records song parodies. Typically, the songs are about President Trump or sometimes Mike Pence. Let's close with a Sondheim melody that you used for a parody. This is \"The Mueller Blues,\" and this was recorded in March 28, 2019. And it's to the melody of \"The God-Why-Don't-You-Love-Me Blues\" from Stephen Sondheim's show \"Follies.\" Talk about what you're doing in this song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, just - it was - it just - it moved me to sort of act it out and add some drama to it and some visuals."}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 51, "text": "Yeah. And, you know, it was almost having like a little nervous breakdown in \"Follies...\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this, for me, was the perfect song to kind of pinpoint the emotions that everyone was feeling that week because the Mueller report had come out, but it hadn't really. And people were happy, and "}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 52, "text": "...When he sings this, yeah. So this was recorded right after the Mueller report was released. Randy Rainbow, it's just been great to talk with you. Thank you so much. And please keep doing what you're doing and do other things too because I look forward to seeing you in a Broadway show or on TV hosting a show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's very breakdowny (ph)."}
{"id": "755014290", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Randy Rainbow", "title": "Satirist Randy Rainbow Uses Show Tunes And Pop Songs To Lampoon Trump", "question_index": 53, "text": "And to you. And I should say that this song starts with you being interviewed, so to speak, by Wolf Blitzer of CNN about the results of Robert Mueller's investigation into the Trump campaign coordination with the Russians. And then you start singing about the results of the investigation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, well, from your mouth - thank you, Terry. It's been a pleasure to talk to you."}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 0, "text": "Billy Eichner, welcome to FRESH AIR", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, editor of the website TV Worth Watching, sitting in for Terry Gross. This week, we've been featuring interviews with some of the artists nominated for Emmy Awar"}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 1, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, editor of the website TV Worth Watching, sitting in for Terry Gross. This week, we've been featuring interviews with some of the artists nominated for Emmy Awar"}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 2, "text": "My pleasure. One of the things I find really funny about your show is that it gives this, like, huge significance to the more trivial aspects of pop culture. So here you are on the street just, like, stopping people who have no clue what's going on and asking them questions. And this is an excerpt of Billy Eichner's TV show \"Billy On The Street.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hi, Terry. Thank you for having me."}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 3, "text": "I don't know. I think that's hilarious. I guess...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Are you excited to be living in a time when TV creators themselves are known personalities? UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #4: I really don't care."}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 4, "text": "Are these actual headlines? These sound like they really are ripped out of entertainment magazines and, you know, entertainment headlines - the kinds of headlines, though, that, like, hype things - you know, like, that Reese Witherspoon celebrated her 40th birthday in style. Like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you."}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 5, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Sometimes, I do find these things in a magazine or on an entertainment website. And if they're not, it's certainly - it's meant to sound like that. Just the idea that someone's going about their "}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yeah. Like, the world is going to hell, but you're going to find out about how people feel about living in a world where TV creators themselves are becoming known personalities", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's the general idea."}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's the general idea."}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 8, "text": "Yeah. But I love it because I think people think that you're, like, insulting people on the street. But I think you're just kind of making fun of a certain type of pop culture writing, in a way, a certain type...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. Exactly."}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 9, "text": "...Of fandom and a certain kind of, like, exaggerated importance to things - even though you are truly passionate about this stuff. As am I. I mean", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 10, "text": ", I'm so deep into pop culture, too. But I think it's hilarious to make fun of it in this way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 11, "text": "So we heard you saying, for a dollar, and then you'd ask a question. What's the dollar about? Is that meant to be, like, the reward for getting it right or a way of paying them for legal reasons so that", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. And I think the whole show is about my own personal love-hate relationship with my interest in the entertainment industry. As I've gotten older, I realized it's ridiculous. Award shows are fu"}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 12, "text": "they can't...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. And I think the whole show is about my own personal love-hate relationship with my interest in the entertainment industry. As I've gotten older, I realized it's ridiculous. Award shows are fu"}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 13, "text": "...Sue you for being used freely in the video?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no."}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. It's not for legal reasons. It - this show is also, among other things, a strange type of game show. And when we started out, the idea was to make a game show but where the questions were subjecti"}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 15, "text": "I keep thinking, as - although I think what you do on the street is hilarious, if I didn't know who you were, and I saw you coming at me with a mic, I would turn and run in the other direction", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You'd be surprised, though. People really want that dollar."}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 16, "text": "because...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You'd be surprised, though. People really want that dollar."}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 17, "text": "Do they really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right; most people do."}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 18, "text": "So what's the angriest response you've gotten?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I would say 9 out of 10 people simply walk past me and don't engage at all. And that's fine. You know, I certainly won't - I won't - I rarely will - if someone's just clearly uninterested, they'"}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 19, "text": "So did you try stand-up comedy before doing what you do now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was an older lady back in my YouTube days who slapped me across the face. I asked her something vaguely sexual. I honestly don't ever remember what it was. This is going back a while. And I love"}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 20, "text": "You did some acting as a kid, right? And you had a little cameo on \"Saturday Night Live\" when you were 12...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I started out as a very traditional actor. I went to Northwestern. I was a theater major there. And then when I got to New York after college, I was doing the typical struggling-actor thing. And peopl"}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 21, "text": "...I think, playing John Goodman's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did."}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 22, "text": "...Son.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did."}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 23, "text": "Did you audition for other roles and for commercials?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 24, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. I did a couple of commercials. I did industrials, which are almost like after-school specials. What else did I do? I didn't do much. I really wanted to be on Broadway as a singer. But I was alr"}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 25, "text": "Was your father impressed when James Lapine told him that you were good, even though you were wrong for the role?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "this kept being a running theme. I was too tall. I was too this. I was too that. And then I never fully committed to the child actor thing. I also liked being a regular kid and being a student. I ende"}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 26, "text": "And James Lapine wrote the book for Sondheim's musical \"Into The Woods,\" for people who don't know who he is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. He - my dad went to all my auditions with me. And my mom couldn't get off work as easily, and my dad could. And I think my dad got a kick out of the whole thing because he loved show business fro"}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 27, "text": "So as a boy, you weren't able to audition in the role of \"Annie,\" right? Because all the girls who", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, he's a very celebrated Broadway director, writer."}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 28, "text": "want to be, like, Broadway stars, they get to do \"Annie.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, he's a very celebrated Broadway director, writer."}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 29, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I did not audition for \"Annie.\" That would have been very nontraditional casting..."}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 30, "text": "So when you were in high school, and you were too tall to get kid parts in shows, and you were too heavy for a lot of those parts too, you were also gay. Did you know you were gay yet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Although we're probably about five minutes from that production."}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 31, "text": "Did other people know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, definitely knew I was gay."}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 32, "text": "Right, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 33, "text": "Was anyone surprised?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I came out at the end of my sophomore year at Northwestern to my friends. And then I came out to my parents about a year after that."}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think so. I remember when I told my parents - I came out to them in a car at Northwestern. They'd come out to visit me, and the time had come. My mom kind of was pressing me. I think she just "}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 35, "text": "That's her way of saying that she knew.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that was actually really, really nice because..."}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 36, "text": "You've spoken very fondly about your parents, who have both passed away. Your mother died, I think, when you were 20, and your father in 2011. Was your - had your mother been ill? Did you know that this was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "and that they were OK with it. But they were really wonderful. Again, I was really lucky. They were very supportive, and it just never was an issue."}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 37, "text": "What's the transition been like for you to be somebody without parents, after having been so close to yours?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. My mom had a heart attack, and it came out of nowhere. She was 54. My dad had leukemia for about three months. He was 80 when he passed. My dad had me later in life, and so he had leukemia and was"}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 38, "text": "Were you grateful that you were able to come out to your parents before your mother died, not necessarily because it was a big revelation to her because she probably knew, but more so that you knew that you weren't keeping such a kind of fundamental thing secret from her - you know, never having spoken to her about something that was, you know, so fundamental to who you are?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "and all my celebrity encounters. And I do think about that. But obviously, it's very sad. And timing is everything."}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 39, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Billy Eichner. He hosts the show \"Billy On The Street.\" We're going to take a short break. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And I remember thinking about that a lot because I came out to her about six months before she died, I believe. And I am very happy about that. I think that would have been difficult. That would "}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 40, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Billy Eichner. He does the series \"Billy On The Street,\" in which he quizzes people on pop culture questions", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And I remember thinking about that a lot because I came out to her about six months before she died, I believe. And I am very happy about that. I think that would have been difficult. That would "}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 41, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And I remember thinking about that a lot because I came out to her about six months before she died, I believe. And I am very happy about that. I think that would have been difficult. That would "}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 42, "text": "You did a really funny video that's a play on \"New York State Of Mind.\" But this is \"Forest Hills State Of Mind\" because you grew up in Forest Hills, Queens, which, I guess, when you were growing up, it was a predominantly Jewish neighborhood.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 43, "text": "OK. So I thought we could hear a little bit of \"Forest Hills State Of Mind.\" And this is you rapping with Rachel Dratch singing. And do you want say anything about this before we hear it? When did you make it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a very Eastern European-Jewish-Russian area."}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 44, "text": "So we're going to play a part of it where the language is clean enough that we can actually broadcast it. So here's Billy Eichner.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This was done late 2010, I believe. The Jay-Z, Alicia Keys song \"Empire State Of Mind\" about his experience growing up in New York was a huge hit. And I rewrote it to be about my experience growing up"}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 45, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Rosh Hashanah."}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 46, "text": "So does it seem inherently funny to you - for you to be doing hip-hop - for you to be doing, like, a Jay-Z thing by talking about your bar mitzvah?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, God - haven't heard that one in a while."}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 47, "text": "So you were close with Joan Rivers for a while. And she was the first famous person to really help you with your career. Did she give you advice about insulting people in your act?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I mean, it was very - it's very incongruous. And it's one of those things. I just thought it was silly. I made that video for YouTube with friends of mine from high school just as a whim. And it "}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 48, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Joan gave me a lot of advice over the years. And the main advice Joan gave me is to stick with it because there had been a point when - I remember emailing her. Maybe this was 2010 or something like t"}
{"id": "755392724", "date": "2019-08-30", "guest": "Billy Eichner", "title": "Billy Eichner Makes A Career Out Of Love/Hating Celebrity Culture", "question_index": 49, "text": "Billy Eichner, thank you so much. It's really been fun to talk with you. Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This - no literally, he said that to me. You know, my dad was a native New Yorker too and an older guy. And he just called it like it is. And although he thought I was very talented, I wasn't making a"}
{"id": "755411294", "date": "2019-09-02", "guest": "Raphael Bob-Waksberg", "title": "Don't Be Fooled By The Talking Horse \u2014 'BoJack' Is A Sadness 'Sneak Attack'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today we conclude our series of interviews with Emmy nominees. The award ceremony is Sunday September 22. The Netflix animated series \"BoJack Horseman\" is nominated for Outstanding Animated Program. Our first interview today is with the creator of \"BoJack Horseman,\" Raphael Bob-Waksberg. He's also the showrunner and a writer on the series. \"BoJack Horseman\" satirizes Hollywood and deals with issues like success and failure, ego, power, addiction, relationships and sexism. The latest season, Season 5, is set in the era of the #MeToo movement.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "755411294", "date": "2019-09-02", "guest": "Raphael Bob-Waksberg", "title": "Don't Be Fooled By The Talking Horse \u2014 'BoJack' Is A Sadness 'Sneak Attack'", "question_index": 1, "text": "\"BoJack Horseman\" takes advantage of the kind of characters that you can pull off in an animated series. It's a world that's a mix of people and talking animals with human characteristics. BoJack is a horse who became famous as the star of the '90s sitcom \"Horsin' Around.\" But when Season 1 of \"BoJack Horseman\" begins, BoJack is washed-up. His celebrity has faded, and he spends a lot of time drinking feeling, sorry for himself and watching old reruns of his sitcom \"Horsin' Around,\" admiring how great he was on the show back then. So how did you come up with the idea of starting a series with a horse that can talk and walk on two legs and dress and be bitter like a human being and have him be the washed-up star of a family sitcom?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "755411294", "date": "2019-09-02", "guest": "Raphael Bob-Waksberg", "title": "Don't Be Fooled By The Talking Horse \u2014 'BoJack' Is A Sadness 'Sneak Attack'", "question_index": 2, "text": "So BoJack is a horse who's raising three human children in the sitcom \"Horsin' Around.\" Is that inspired by, like, \"Diff'rent Strokes\" about a white, wealthy businessman whose wife is deceased? He's living on Park Avenue and he drops his late housekeeper's two children who are African American, and so it's this, like, unusual blended family that all the comedy is built around.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the idea for the show really started from my friendship with Lisa Hanawalt, who is a brilliant illustrator and cartoonist, and I have been friends with her since high school. And when I was, you"}
{"id": "755411294", "date": "2019-09-02", "guest": "Raphael Bob-Waksberg", "title": "Don't Be Fooled By The Talking Horse \u2014 'BoJack' Is A Sadness 'Sneak Attack'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Since BoJack is a horse, did you ever watch \"Mr. Ed?\" You're too young to have grown up with it, but was that an influence at all? And he, too - like the \"BoJack Horseman\" series within the series \"Horsin' Around,\" he, too, had a theme song that kind of explained the premise of the show - that he was a talking horse.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's actually based on a lot of things. I mean, \"Diff'rent Strokes\" is certainly an inspiration. \"Full House,\" \"The Brady Bunch,\" \"Step By Step\" - I mean, I think in the '70s and '80s and '90s, there "}
{"id": "755411294", "date": "2019-09-02", "guest": "Raphael Bob-Waksberg", "title": "Don't Be Fooled By The Talking Horse \u2014 'BoJack' Is A Sadness 'Sneak Attack'", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I have seen a little \"Mr. Ed.\" It is slightly before my time, but I think the nature of being my age is that when I stayed home sick from school, I didn't have cable, so I would just watch w"}
{"id": "755411294", "date": "2019-09-02", "guest": "Raphael Bob-Waksberg", "title": "Don't Be Fooled By The Talking Horse \u2014 'BoJack' Is A Sadness 'Sneak Attack'", "question_index": 5, "text": "That's really funny. When I first started watching \"BoJack,\" I thought, oh, this is such a funny show about the tropes of popular culture. And then, like, the deeper I got into it, I thought like, wow. There's some really emotionally upsetting things that happen in this. You know, BoJack is an alcoholic. He's mean. He's sexist. He has this ongoing monologue - self-destructive monologue in his head about how much he hates himself and how much he knows he's always doing the wrong thing, and so what he does is drink more. And things sometimes get, like, really dark, and at the risk of giving something away from an earlier season, I'll say that Sarah Lynn, who is the actress who plays BoJack's daughter - adopted daughter on BoJack's sitcom \"Horsin' Around\" - after she gets out of rehab years later and he invites her to get high, which he should never have done - she just got out of rehab - she ends up ODing, you know, toward the end of the episode. And it's kind of shocking. I mean, you know, it's a comedy, it's animated, but you're really emotionally unprepared for that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What is - when Mr. Ed goes home after shooting, who is he really? And that was a helpful way to think about the series."}
{"id": "755411294", "date": "2019-09-02", "guest": "Raphael Bob-Waksberg", "title": "Don't Be Fooled By The Talking Horse \u2014 'BoJack' Is A Sadness 'Sneak Attack'", "question_index": 6, "text": "I like that - sneak-attack into sadness in some fun ways", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think the pitch for the show, you know, when I went into Netflix, was always that it's going to start like your typical animated comedy, and it's going to feel like, as you're watching it - li"}
{"id": "755411294", "date": "2019-09-02", "guest": "Raphael Bob-Waksberg", "title": "Don't Be Fooled By The Talking Horse \u2014 'BoJack' Is A Sadness 'Sneak Attack'", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think the pitch for the show, you know, when I went into Netflix, was always that it's going to start like your typical animated comedy, and it's going to feel like, as you're watching it - li"}
{"id": "755411294", "date": "2019-09-02", "guest": "Raphael Bob-Waksberg", "title": "Don't Be Fooled By The Talking Horse \u2014 'BoJack' Is A Sadness 'Sneak Attack'", "question_index": 8, "text": "That's the kind of sadness I like - the fun version.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In some fun ways - exactly."}
{"id": "755411294", "date": "2019-09-02", "guest": "Raphael Bob-Waksberg", "title": "Don't Be Fooled By The Talking Horse \u2014 'BoJack' Is A Sadness 'Sneak Attack'", "question_index": 9, "text": "One of the episodes that you have in the current season - Season 5, which you wrote - is an unusual episode because it's one long monologue. BoJack's mother has died. She was never a nice mother. She was always mean to him. And during the last period of her life, she had really bad dementia. And BoJack does not feel warmly toward her, so this episode is all his eulogy for her. So he's at a podium, at a mic. Her coffin's at the side. And he's not trying to paper over what their relationship was like. He's talking about all these horrible things that happened in his family and how he was mistreated by his parents and how his father was mean to his mother and they were both mean to BoJack. I want to play a brief part of his eulogy. And this is Will Arnett as BoJack Horseman.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Me too."}
{"id": "755411294", "date": "2019-09-02", "guest": "Raphael Bob-Waksberg", "title": "Don't Be Fooled By The Talking Horse \u2014 'BoJack' Is A Sadness 'Sneak Attack'", "question_index": 10, "text": "And as he's saying until there isn't, he's looking at his mother's coffin. You know, his mother had told him earlier, you were born broken. You're BoJack Horseman. There's no cure for that. So he really had a bad relationship with her. And when he says early in that clip that he envied orphans because they could imagine their parents any way they wanted to, what made you think about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As BoJack Horseman) I used to be on this TV show called \"Horsin' Around.\" Seriously though, hold your applause - well held. It was written by my friend Herb Kazzaz, who's also dead now. And it starre"}
{"id": "755411294", "date": "2019-09-02", "guest": "Raphael Bob-Waksberg", "title": "Don't Be Fooled By The Talking Horse \u2014 'BoJack' Is A Sadness 'Sneak Attack'", "question_index": 11, "text": "So in this era of the #MeToo movement where so many men have so much to apologize for, one of the funny things that you've come up with for the series - you and the writers - is the We Forgive You Awards. You created a whole awards ceremony for people who need to apologize for something. Would you describe the Forgivies (ph) - the We Forgive You Awards?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I think a big part of this episode and a big part of the larger story of his relationship with his mother and his relationship with his parents is about this idea of, can you forgive p"}
{"id": "755411294", "date": "2019-09-02", "guest": "Raphael Bob-Waksberg", "title": "Don't Be Fooled By The Talking Horse \u2014 'BoJack' Is A Sadness 'Sneak Attack'", "question_index": 12, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded last October with Raphael Bob-Waksberg, the creator and showrunner of the Netflix animated series \"BoJack Horseman.\" The clip we heard is from the episode that's nominated for an Emmy in the category Outstanding Animated Program. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I don't know. Maybe this is sadly relevant anew. So it feels like, oh, we're really, you know, on top of the last month of pop culture news when, in fact, we were describing this thing that's been h"}
{"id": "755411294", "date": "2019-09-02", "guest": "Raphael Bob-Waksberg", "title": "Don't Be Fooled By The Talking Horse \u2014 'BoJack' Is A Sadness 'Sneak Attack'", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Raphael Bob-Waksberg, the creator and showrunner of the Netflix series \"BoJack Horseman,\" which is nominated for an Emmy as Outstanding Animated Program.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I don't know. Maybe this is sadly relevant anew. So it feels like, oh, we're really, you know, on top of the last month of pop culture news when, in fact, we were describing this thing that's been h"}
{"id": "755411294", "date": "2019-09-02", "guest": "Raphael Bob-Waksberg", "title": "Don't Be Fooled By The Talking Horse \u2014 'BoJack' Is A Sadness 'Sneak Attack'", "question_index": 14, "text": "So you've said that you regret some of the jokes from the first season and some of the ways BoJack's bad behavior, like sleeping with his co-stars, being drunk all the time, being mean to people - you just kind of regret turning some of those things into jokes. Can you talk about that a little bit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I don't know. Maybe this is sadly relevant anew. So it feels like, oh, we're really, you know, on top of the last month of pop culture news when, in fact, we were describing this thing that's been h"}
{"id": "755411294", "date": "2019-09-02", "guest": "Raphael Bob-Waksberg", "title": "Don't Be Fooled By The Talking Horse \u2014 'BoJack' Is A Sadness 'Sneak Attack'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Mmm hmm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Well, I - you know, I think regret is maybe a strong word. And I don't know what a better word would be, so we can go with regret. And it - it's not necessarily that we had BoJack doing these th"}
{"id": "755411294", "date": "2019-09-02", "guest": "Raphael Bob-Waksberg", "title": "Don't Be Fooled By The Talking Horse \u2014 'BoJack' Is A Sadness 'Sneak Attack'", "question_index": 16, "text": "Is there an example you can give of that, of a joke that you maybe you regret or wish you had placed differently, in a - contextually?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that wasn't intentional, but I think it - it's slippery. I think that happens sometimes without us meaning to. And I think there are a lot of comedy writers - and I would include myself on this - "}
{"id": "755411294", "date": "2019-09-02", "guest": "Raphael Bob-Waksberg", "title": "Don't Be Fooled By The Talking Horse \u2014 'BoJack' Is A Sadness 'Sneak Attack'", "question_index": 17, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded last October with Raphael Bob-Waksberg, the showrunner and creator of the animated series \"BoJack Horseman,\" which is nominated for an Emmy as outstanding animated program. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. And we'll hear from Maya Erskine and Anna Konkle, the creators and stars of the comedy series \"PEN15.\" They're nominated for an Emmy for outstanding writing in a comedy series. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I - you misinterpreted it, so you are wrong to be offended. I have to hear that note and go, oh, you're right. Maybe we weren't as careful about that as we should have been."}
{"id": "755411294", "date": "2019-09-02", "guest": "Raphael Bob-Waksberg", "title": "Don't Be Fooled By The Talking Horse \u2014 'BoJack' Is A Sadness 'Sneak Attack'", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross back with Raphael Bob-Waksberg, the creator and showrunner of the animated series \"BoJack Horseman,\" which is nominated for an Emmy in the category Outstanding Animated Program. It's a satire about Hollywood, success, failure, depression, addiction and the human condition in general, although many of the characters aren't human; they're talking animals with human characteristics. Your parents were involved with Jewish culture. Your mother ran a Jewish bookstore. Your father helped Russian Jewish immigrants in the U.S. Tell us a little bit about the bookstore your mother used to have. Like, what kind of books were there? And did you read any of them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I - you misinterpreted it, so you are wrong to be offended. I have to hear that note and go, oh, you're right. Maybe we weren't as careful about that as we should have been."}
{"id": "755411294", "date": "2019-09-02", "guest": "Raphael Bob-Waksberg", "title": "Don't Be Fooled By The Talking Horse \u2014 'BoJack' Is A Sadness 'Sneak Attack'", "question_index": 19, "text": "Was there a disconnect between being told about anti-Semitism and living in this culture that was a majority Jewish culture?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So my mother owned a Jewish gift and book store called Bob and Bob, and it was kind of a hub of Jewish life in the Bay Area, or at least, you know, my section of the Bay Area, Palo Alto and the surrou"}
{"id": "755411294", "date": "2019-09-02", "guest": "Raphael Bob-Waksberg", "title": "Don't Be Fooled By The Talking Horse \u2014 'BoJack' Is A Sadness 'Sneak Attack'", "question_index": 20, "text": "Are you now officially one of the Jews who control the media?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A hundred percent. It felt like a thing of the past. It felt like, oh, the Holocaust happened, and that was terrible, but now we live in sophisticated times. You know, now it's OK to be a Jew, and, yo"}
{"id": "755411294", "date": "2019-09-02", "guest": "Raphael Bob-Waksberg", "title": "Don't Be Fooled By The Talking Horse \u2014 'BoJack' Is A Sadness 'Sneak Attack'", "question_index": 21, "text": "That's why I said it - because there's people who believe it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess I am, right? But even that kind of joke I would feel comfortable saying five years ago, and now I kind of feel like, oh, no. There's people who believe that, right?"}
{"id": "755411294", "date": "2019-09-02", "guest": "Raphael Bob-Waksberg", "title": "Don't Be Fooled By The Talking Horse \u2014 'BoJack' Is A Sadness 'Sneak Attack'", "question_index": 22, "text": "And they're surfacing. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "755411294", "date": "2019-09-02", "guest": "Raphael Bob-Waksberg", "title": "Don't Be Fooled By The Talking Horse \u2014 'BoJack' Is A Sadness 'Sneak Attack'", "question_index": 23, "text": "So your mother and grandmother ran a bookstore. You were diagnosed with attention deficit disorder, so was it difficult for you to concentrate long enough to read books?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I would say - a couple of years ago, I'd be like, oh, yeah. We do control the media. Isn't that hilarious? And now I think, yes, I am a Jew, and I have some power in the stories that I put out. An"}
{"id": "755411294", "date": "2019-09-02", "guest": "Raphael Bob-Waksberg", "title": "Don't Be Fooled By The Talking Horse \u2014 'BoJack' Is A Sadness 'Sneak Attack'", "question_index": 24, "text": "What was something inappropriate that you did that you didn't realize was inappropriate?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, sometimes, you know? I could always read books that I was interested in, and some people can't even do that. And I was lucky that I had a form of ADHD where, if there was something that really in"}
{"id": "755411294", "date": "2019-09-02", "guest": "Raphael Bob-Waksberg", "title": "Don't Be Fooled By The Talking Horse \u2014 'BoJack' Is A Sadness 'Sneak Attack'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Inappropriate.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, like, one time in math class, I remember standing up and dropping my pants so everyone can see my underpants."}
{"id": "755411294", "date": "2019-09-02", "guest": "Raphael Bob-Waksberg", "title": "Don't Be Fooled By The Talking Horse \u2014 'BoJack' Is A Sadness 'Sneak Attack'", "question_index": 26, "text": "I thought that was more of a symptom of being a comic than attention deficit disorder.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Inappropriate. And I remember at the time, I didn't do it thinking, oh, I'm being edgy here. I'm pushing the boundaries. I did it because I thought, oh, this would be a funny thing. And then I was mys"}
{"id": "755411294", "date": "2019-09-02", "guest": "Raphael Bob-Waksberg", "title": "Don't Be Fooled By The Talking Horse \u2014 'BoJack' Is A Sadness 'Sneak Attack'", "question_index": 27, "text": "Was TV, like, a safe space for you where you could, like, immerse yourself in television and be really comfortable? Like, did you live more in the world of what you were consuming than the actual world? And the reason why I ask that is that, like, there's so many pop culture references in \"BoJack Horseman,\" and some of them, like, just, like, whiz by you, and they happen so quickly you can barely, like, catch them of them. So it made me think, like, you must have just, like, absorbed pop culture all the time when you were growing up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think those things are related a little bit, for me at least. I don't necessarily know the difference. I think it's hard to say, yes, am I a comedian because I have ADHD? Or do I have, you kno"}
{"id": "755411294", "date": "2019-09-02", "guest": "Raphael Bob-Waksberg", "title": "Don't Be Fooled By The Talking Horse \u2014 'BoJack' Is A Sadness 'Sneak Attack'", "question_index": 28, "text": "Well, it's been great to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, well, TV made sense to me. And, you know, there's a correlation-causation chicken-or-egg conversation to have here, but on TV, when someone thought of a funny thing, they said it - right? - even"}
{"id": "755411294", "date": "2019-09-02", "guest": "Raphael Bob-Waksberg", "title": "Don't Be Fooled By The Talking Horse \u2014 'BoJack' Is A Sadness 'Sneak Attack'", "question_index": 29, "text": "My interview with Raphael Bob-Waksberg was recorded in October. He's the creator and showrunner of the Netflix series \"BoJack Horseman,\" which is nominated for an Emmy as outstanding animated program. After we take a short break, we'll hear from Maya Erskine and Anna Konkle, the creators and stars of \"PEN15.\" They're nominated for outstanding writing in a comedy series. Their series is about the anxieties and embarrassments related to middle school and puberty. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is my pleasure. Thank you so much."}
{"id": "755417641", "date": "2019-09-02", "guest": "Maya Erskine", "title": "Return To Middle School In 'PEN15': Creators Say 'It's All About Survival'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're going to conclude our series of interviews with current Emmy nominees with the creators and stars of the Hulu series \"PEN15,\" Maya Erskine and Anna Konkle. They're nominated in the category outstanding writing in a comedy series. \"PEN15\" is about the middle-school years, one of the most awkward periods of life. I don't know if many people would want to go back and revisit those years, but that's kind of what Erskine and Konkle did. They're both in their early 30s. But in \"PEN15,\" set in the year 2000, they play seventh-grade versions of themselves. The rest of the show's middle schoolers are played by actual teens. \"PEN15\" explores what it's like for Maya and Anna to deal with the problems associated with the middle-school years, like puberty and mean girls. The situations are embarrassing, poignant and very funny. Many of the storylines come from Maya Erskine and Anna Konkle's own experiences. They spoke with FRESH AIR producer Sam Briger. They started with a clip from the show. Anna and Maya are having a sleepover after Anna has just had her first kiss with her first boyfriend, Brendan. And it was not how she fantasized it would be. Maya asks her about it.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "755417641", "date": "2019-09-02", "guest": "Maya Erskine", "title": "Return To Middle School In 'PEN15': Creators Say 'It's All About Survival'", "question_index": 1, "text": "We're listening to the interview FRESH AIR producer Sam Briger recorded with Maya Erskine and Anna Konkle, co-creators and co-stars of the Hulu comedy series \"PEN15.\" We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "755417641", "date": "2019-09-02", "guest": "Maya Erskine", "title": "Return To Middle School In 'PEN15': Creators Say 'It's All About Survival'", "question_index": 2, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview FRESH AIR producer Sam Briger recorded with Maya Erskine and Anna Konkle, creators and stars of the Hulu comedy series \"PEN15.\" They're in their early 30s, but in the show, they play middle school versions of themselves.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "755417641", "date": "2019-09-02", "guest": "Maya Erskine", "title": "Return To Middle School In 'PEN15': Creators Say 'It's All About Survival'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Maya Erskine and Anna Konkle spoke with FRESH AIR producer Sam Briger. Erskine and Konkle are the creators and stars of \"PEN15.\" They're nominated for an Emmy for Outstanding Writing in a Comedy Series. And that concludes our series of interviews with Emmy nominees. We'll find out who the winners are when the ceremony is broadcast Sunday, September 22. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, my guest will be guitarist James Burton. He played with Elvis Presley from Elvis' 1969 comeback performances in Vegas until Elvis' death in 1977. A new box set has been released commemorating the 50th anniversary of that comeback. Burton not only plays on it. He assembled the band. He's played with so many rock and country performers. He plays the famous guitar line on the hit \"Susie Q.\" He played in Ricky Nelson's band for many years, including on the show \"Ozzie And Harriet.\" He played with Merle Haggard, Buffalo Springfield, Gram Parsons, Emmylou Harris and did a lot of dates with Phil Spector. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much."}
{"id": "755417641", "date": "2019-09-02", "guest": "Maya Erskine", "title": "Return To Middle School In 'PEN15': Creators Say 'It's All About Survival'", "question_index": 4, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) We're going up. We're going down. We're going up, down, down, up, any way you want to. Let it roll. Yeah, yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "757066866", "date": "2019-09-03", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Elvis' Guitarist James Burton: 'I Went Professional When I Was 14'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Fifty years ago, Elvis Presley started performing in concert live on stage for the first time in eight years - eight years of making movies and records. The 1969 concert comeback was staged in the biggest showroom in Vegas - 2,000 seats - at the Las Vegas International Hotel, where he played two sold-out shows a night seven nights a week for four weeks. He was accompanied by an orchestra as well as a five-piece band, which was assembled by my guest, James Burton, who also backed Elvis on guitar. A new 11-CD set called \"Elvis Live 1969\" collects recordings from 11 of those Vegas shows. James Burton continued to play with Elvis until Elvis' death in 1977. James Burton is famous in the music world for his work as a sideman. He was the guitarist on Dale Hawkins' 1957 hit \"Susie Q\" and wrote the song's famous guitar lick. Then he played with Ricky Nelson on most of his hit records and in the TV series \"Ozzie And Harriet.\" Burton has played with many performers, including Frank Sinatra, Johnny Cash, Merle Haggard, Buck Owens, Buffalo Springfield, Gram Parsons and Emmylou Harris. He recorded sessions with Phil Spector and Brian Wilson. Let's start with a track from the new \"Elvis Live 1969\" box set. This song, \"Suspicious Minds,\" became a number-one hit - Elvis's first in seven years - but he performed this version in Vegas before the single was released.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "757066866", "date": "2019-09-03", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Elvis' Guitarist James Burton: 'I Went Professional When I Was 14'", "question_index": 1, "text": "James Burton, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) We're caught in a trap. I can't walk out because I love you too much, baby. Why can't you see what you're doing to me when you don't believe a word I'm saying? We can't go on together with s"}
{"id": "757066866", "date": "2019-09-03", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Elvis' Guitarist James Burton: 'I Went Professional When I Was 14'", "question_index": 2, "text": "So these 1969 Vegas concerts were recorded a year after his TV comeback special, and - but this was - the Vegas concerts were the first time he was, like, back onstage in front of a lot of people live. And he was nervous about getting onstage. I think he told you that he was afraid that he wasn't going to be able to do it. Is that right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. I'm honored to be here."}
{"id": "757066866", "date": "2019-09-03", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Elvis' Guitarist James Burton: 'I Went Professional When I Was 14'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Was there ever a moment where you thought he's really not going to make it; he is not going to be able to go onstage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he - backstage, just before we went out on stage, he was very nervous. He came up to me, and he said, James, I don't know if I can walk out there. And I said, Elvis, you'll have no problem. Just"}
{"id": "757066866", "date": "2019-09-03", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Elvis' Guitarist James Burton: 'I Went Professional When I Was 14'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Well, let me describe this. It's a white jumpsuit, but it had, like, a zillion really large rivets on it, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not really. He was always wound up and ready to go. I mean, all of his performances were fantastic. You know, that suit he wore weighed, like, 5,000 pounds. It was the heaviest suit I've ever seen"}
{"id": "757066866", "date": "2019-09-03", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Elvis' Guitarist James Burton: 'I Went Professional When I Was 14'", "question_index": 5, "text": "...Going down the side - both sides of the jumpsuit. And, like, instead of buttons, there were rivets - like, rivet buttons in the center. And then it's, like, a heavy white material with a big collar - not the huge collar that he later wore, but a pretty big collar nevertheless.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "757066866", "date": "2019-09-03", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Elvis' Guitarist James Burton: 'I Went Professional When I Was 14'", "question_index": 6, "text": "I read that he rehearsed with weights on his hands and feet so that he'd be...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was so heavy, Terry. I got to tell you. I picked it up one day to move it off the couch, and I couldn't pick it up. It was so heavy. I really don't know how he could jump around like a little kid o"}
{"id": "757066866", "date": "2019-09-03", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Elvis' Guitarist James Burton: 'I Went Professional When I Was 14'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He would."}
{"id": "757066866", "date": "2019-09-03", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Elvis' Guitarist James Burton: 'I Went Professional When I Was 14'", "question_index": 8, "text": "And describe your pink paisley guitar that you got for these concerts.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He would do that because, I guess, wearing those suits and everything, he had to get ready for it - jumping around onstage."}
{"id": "757066866", "date": "2019-09-03", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Elvis' Guitarist James Burton: 'I Went Professional When I Was 14'", "question_index": 9, "text": "So what was it like standing behind Elvis or to the side of Elvis onstage facing the audience, watching the audience, watching him? Because, like, you're onstage, but, like, the eyes are mostly going to be, like, fixed on Elvis, and you're taking in the whole spectacle.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, wow. That guitar - this was amazing. My friend that was - he was actually the vice president of Fender - called me. He said, I have a guitar here with your name on it. And I said, really? Well, se"}
{"id": "757066866", "date": "2019-09-03", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Elvis' Guitarist James Burton: 'I Went Professional When I Was 14'", "question_index": 10, "text": "So you kept playing with Elvis from '69 until his death, so you weren't put in a position to watch his health deteriorate. Do you think he understood that the pills he was taking were addictive and were really harming his health?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, he loved guitar. He always keyed off guitar, and he'd always give me looks onstage. He'd always kind of follow me on guitar, and we had to watch him every second because he would chang"}
{"id": "757066866", "date": "2019-09-03", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Elvis' Guitarist James Burton: 'I Went Professional When I Was 14'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Let's talk about you and how you got started in music. You got your first guitar at age 14. Describe that first guitar that you had.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I never saw him do anything or take anything. I know that sometimes, he would he would gain a little weight, and then he would say, man, I got to go back on my diet. I got to slow down"}
{"id": "757066866", "date": "2019-09-03", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Elvis' Guitarist James Burton: 'I Went Professional When I Was 14'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Which became a big hit - so why don't we hear \"Susie Q\"? And this features James Burton on guitar and Dale Hawkins singing. And he wrote the lyric to this, too, right? It was like your lick and his lyric.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my first guitar actually was when I was 13. My mother and dad bought my first guitar. And I just - I wanted to play so bad. I had a friend in Louisiana that we kind of grew up together in school"}
{"id": "757066866", "date": "2019-09-03", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Elvis' Guitarist James Burton: 'I Went Professional When I Was 14'", "question_index": 13, "text": "OK. And other people have recorded this, as well, after the Dale Hawkins recording, which was so popular and influential. So here is my guest James Burton on guitar. \"Susie Q.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct."}
{"id": "757066866", "date": "2019-09-03", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Elvis' Guitarist James Burton: 'I Went Professional When I Was 14'", "question_index": 14, "text": "So that was \"Susie Q\" - Dale Hawkins with my guest James Burton on guitar. And James Burton wrote that famous guitar lick that you heard there. So you mentioned that you developed this chicken pickin' style. Something else that you did to have your own distinct sound is you replaced some of your guitar strings with banjo strings. What gave you the idea to do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Susie Q - oh, Susie Q. Oh, Susie Q, how I love you, my Susie Q. I like the way you walk. I like the way you talk. I like the way you walk. I like the way you talk, my Susie Q."}
{"id": "757066866", "date": "2019-09-03", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Elvis' Guitarist James Burton: 'I Went Professional When I Was 14'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Was it easier to bend the notes - to bend the string to bend the note?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, when I got my first Fender Telecaster my mother and dad bought me, the strings were very stiff. And I wanted to bend the strings, but I realized that I couldn't actually do it with tho"}
{"id": "757066866", "date": "2019-09-03", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Elvis' Guitarist James Burton: 'I Went Professional When I Was 14'", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is guitarist James Burton. He played with Elvis during the last eight years of Elvis' life, starting with Elvis' stage comeback in 1969 in Vegas. Eleven shows from that engagement have been released in a new box set called \"Elvis Live 1969.\" We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "757066866", "date": "2019-09-03", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Elvis' Guitarist James Burton: 'I Went Professional When I Was 14'", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is James Burton, a guitarist who's influenced many rock and country musicians and who's played with many iconic performers, including Elvis Presley, Sinatra, Johnny Cash, Merle Haggard. He was in Ricky Nelson's band on the TV series \"Ozzie And Harriet.\" He played on many Phil Spector records. He played with Elvis Presley from '69 until his death in '77, starting with Elvis' stage comeback in 1969 in Vegas. Eleven shows from that Vegas engagement have now been released in a box set called \"Elvis Live 1969.\" So you played on \"Ozzie And Harriet\" with Ricky Nelson. And \"Ozzie And Harriet\" was a sitcom in the '50s and '60s that featured Ozzie and Harriet Nelson, who had been big band singers. I think she was a big band singer, too, wasn't she?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "757066866", "date": "2019-09-03", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Elvis' Guitarist James Burton: 'I Went Professional When I Was 14'", "question_index": 18, "text": "OK. So they were married, and they played husband and wife. And their two sons, David and Ricky, played their two sons. And Ricky was an excellent singer. And so when he became a teenager, the show often ended with him and his band playing, like, for a school dance, or the prom, or some party or something. And so it would be very exciting 'cause there weren't a lot of shows, particularly, like, sitcoms, that had a rock 'n' roller on performing on the show. And you were in the band. You were in Ricky Nelson's band on the show and in real life. How did that change your life to be on this really incredibly popular TV show back in the days when there were basically three TV stations? So if you were a teenager, you were watching that show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. She was a singer. Actually, Ozzie hired her to sing in his band."}
{"id": "757066866", "date": "2019-09-03", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Elvis' Guitarist James Burton: 'I Went Professional When I Was 14'", "question_index": 19, "text": "So it was Ozzie's idea? It was the father's idea for you to do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's correct. Before I went to work with Ricky, I met him. I was working with a guy named Bob Luman. And Bob Luman was a great singer, and we were in LA doing some rehearsals on some songs to record"}
{"id": "757066866", "date": "2019-09-03", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Elvis' Guitarist James Burton: 'I Went Professional When I Was 14'", "question_index": 20, "text": "So I'm going to play the first song that you did with Ricky Nelson in which you played lead guitar. And this is \"Believe What You Say.\" What are your memories of playing this for the first time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he wanted to put the song on the show. He said, this is great. Do you guys want to do this? But later on, we went back to Louisiana, my hometown, and Ozzie called me maybe two weeks later and as"}
{"id": "757066866", "date": "2019-09-03", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Elvis' Guitarist James Burton: 'I Went Professional When I Was 14'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Yeah. I enjoy the solo, too. So,", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was fun. I enjoyed the solo. I got a chance to stretch out a little bit and bend a lot of notes."}
{"id": "757066866", "date": "2019-09-03", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Elvis' Guitarist James Burton: 'I Went Professional When I Was 14'", "question_index": 22, "text": ", so let's hear \"Believe What You Say.\" This is Ricky Nelson with my guest, James Burton, on guitar.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was fun. I enjoyed the solo. I got a chance to stretch out a little bit and bend a lot of notes."}
{"id": "757066866", "date": "2019-09-03", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Elvis' Guitarist James Burton: 'I Went Professional When I Was 14'", "question_index": 23, "text": "You know, you've had such a big influence on guitar players. And I think part of that comes from being on \"Ozzie And Harriet,\" which, like I said, like, all teenagers watched it at the time. Elvis watched it. Elvis told you he used to watch it. Were you aware of that at the time, that a lot of, like, up-and-coming guitar players, including Keith Richards, were watching \"Ozzie And Harriet\" and being influenced by what you were doing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Well, I believe what you say when you say you don't miss nobody else but me."}
{"id": "757066866", "date": "2019-09-03", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Elvis' Guitarist James Burton: 'I Went Professional When I Was 14'", "question_index": 24, "text": "My guest is guitarist James Burton. He's featured on the new 11-CD box set \"Elvis Live 1969.\" After a break, we'll hear more of the interview. Ken Tucker will review the first solo album by Chuck Cleaver, one of the leaders of the band Wussy, and Justin Chang will review a new film comedy about a medical transport worker and his passengers. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But he said he loved it. He watched it every week."}
{"id": "757066866", "date": "2019-09-03", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Elvis' Guitarist James Burton: 'I Went Professional When I Was 14'", "question_index": 25, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with guitarist James Burton. He played with Elvis Presley from Elvis' 1969 comeback performances in Vegas until Elvis's death in 1977. Burton is featured on guitar on a new box set collecting performances from 11 of those 1969 shows in Vegas. It's called \"Elvis Live 1969.\" Burton has played with many iconic performers, including Frank Sinatra, Merle Haggard, Buck Owens, Gram Parsons and Emmylou Harris. Earlier, we were talking about how he played on most of Ricky Nelson's hits and was featured in Ricky Nelson's band on the TV series \"The Adventures Of Ozzie And Harriet.\" So I'm assuming that you left high school to become a professional musician because you moved to LA to be on \"Ozzie And Harriet\" when you were 16, but you were playing a teenager on this teenage show that revolved in part around Ricky being in high school. Was the kind of teenage life that was being depicted on \"Ozzie And Harriet\" really different from anything that you had experienced personally?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But he said he loved it. He watched it every week."}
{"id": "757066866", "date": "2019-09-03", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Elvis' Guitarist James Burton: 'I Went Professional When I Was 14'", "question_index": 26, "text": "I want to get to what you were doing in 1966. Among other things, you were featured playing guitar on a very famous, very wonderful record by Merle Haggard called \"The Bottle Let Me Down.\" And, you know, Merle Haggard is one of the people who was considered to have originated the Bakersfield sound, a California country music sound that was influenced by rock as well as country. What do you think of as being your contribution to what's known as the Bakersfield sound? Or to put it another way, also, how would you describe the Bakersfield sound?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was different, all right. When I had to call to join Ricky, my plan was to maybe come back and finish school, except when I went out to work with Ricky, it got so busy for me. I didn't have a clue "}
{"id": "757066866", "date": "2019-09-03", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Elvis' Guitarist James Burton: 'I Went Professional When I Was 14'", "question_index": 27, "text": "Well, we're going to hear \"The Bottle Let Me Down.\" And Ralph Mooney is featured on pedal steel, and there's some really nice interplay between you on guitar and him on pedal steel. Anything you want to say about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I played on probably almost all the artists in Bakersfield - Buck Owens to Merle Haggard to Bonnie Owens to Red Simpson. It was just a huge lineup of singers from that era. And Merle called me -"}
{"id": "757066866", "date": "2019-09-03", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Elvis' Guitarist James Burton: 'I Went Professional When I Was 14'", "question_index": 28, "text": "OK, so here's Merle Haggard's \"The Bottle Let Me Down,\" recorded in 1966 with my guest James Burton on guitar and Ralph Mooney on pedal steel guitar.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just love Ralph. I just love - I love the way he plays. He just - he's got it down. He's got that sound, and when he bends the notes, it's just perfect. What can I say? If I play steel guitar, it wo"}
{"id": "757066866", "date": "2019-09-03", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Elvis' Guitarist James Burton: 'I Went Professional When I Was 14'", "question_index": 29, "text": "That was my guest James Burton on guitar with Ralph Mooney on pedal steel guitar and Merle Haggard singing Haggard's song \"The Bottle Let Me Down.\" So you played in so many different worlds, and one of the worlds you played in was the world of Phil Spector, and everyone who has worked with Spector seems to have a story about how brilliant and how crazy he was. Do you have a story you can tell us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Each night I leave the bar room when it's over, not feeling any pain at closing time. But tonight, your memory found me much too sober; couldn't drink enough to keep you off my mind. Tonight"}
{"id": "757066866", "date": "2019-09-03", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Elvis' Guitarist James Burton: 'I Went Professional When I Was 14'", "question_index": 30, "text": "So what Phil Spector records do you remember playing on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, he was brilliant when it came to putting things together, but it was kind of crazy, too, because sometimes, we'd go into a session where he would have three organ players, maybe four p"}
{"id": "757066866", "date": "2019-09-03", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Elvis' Guitarist James Burton: 'I Went Professional When I Was 14'", "question_index": 31, "text": "Did you feel like a captive or did you enjoy that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, boy. I don't have a clue right now. I don't have a clue. There's so much stuff. You know, I was doing, like, four sessions a day seven days a week, and it got pretty crazy because sometimes, you d"}
{"id": "757066866", "date": "2019-09-03", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Elvis' Guitarist James Burton: 'I Went Professional When I Was 14'", "question_index": 32, "text": "Do you read music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I felt like I was, you know, kidnapped. No, it was great. We had fun doing it, you know? If we got tired, he said, you go and take a nap, and when I need you, I'll call you."}
{"id": "757066866", "date": "2019-09-03", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Elvis' Guitarist James Burton: 'I Went Professional When I Was 14'", "question_index": 33, "text": "So a few years ago - I'm not sure when it was exactly; you can let me know - you were in an accident, and you broke both your ankles, and they were really bad breaks. What happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not well enough to hurt my playing, really. I'm a very slow reader. I did an album with Henry Mancini, and the first thing I asked him on the phone - I said, Henry, if you're looking for somebody to r"}
{"id": "757066866", "date": "2019-09-03", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Elvis' Guitarist James Burton: 'I Went Professional When I Was 14'", "question_index": 34, "text": "What was it like to come out of the coma? Do you remember your first memory?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, actually, I only broke one ankle on my left foot. That was no problem. The only thing is, when I was in the hospital - I don't do any drugs. I don't do anything to harm my body. But evidently, I"}
{"id": "757066866", "date": "2019-09-03", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Elvis' Guitarist James Burton: 'I Went Professional When I Was 14'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Thank goodness. So one of the things you've been doing in the past few years - you started a foundation to get guitars to schools and maybe churches.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't remember anything. My wife just told me a few days after we got home what happened, but when I actually came out of the coma, there were doctors in my room asking me all kinds of questions bec"}
{"id": "757066866", "date": "2019-09-03", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Elvis' Guitarist James Burton: 'I Went Professional When I Was 14'", "question_index": 36, "text": "Yeah, that's great because probably, a lot of the kids couldn't afford guitars, and like you said, a lot of school music programs have been cut out. Your parents brought you your first guitar. Was that a financial hardship for them, or were they able to easily afford it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, I've always wanted to do my own show, which - in 2005, we actually came up with the idea to do the show, invite all of my friends that I worked with and all my guitar player friends an"}
{"id": "757066866", "date": "2019-09-03", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Elvis' Guitarist James Burton: 'I Went Professional When I Was 14'", "question_index": 37, "text": "Well, it was a good investment. Are you still playing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was probably a little hardship because at that time, the guitar was, like, $350, and, you know, that was a little tight. That was a little tough for my folks to do that. But when I saw my fir"}
{"id": "757066866", "date": "2019-09-03", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Elvis' Guitarist James Burton: 'I Went Professional When I Was 14'", "question_index": 38, "text": "Well, James Burton, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Every day, every chance I get, every chance I walk by my guitar."}
{"id": "757066866", "date": "2019-09-03", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Elvis' Guitarist James Burton: 'I Went Professional When I Was 14'", "question_index": 39, "text": "James Burton is featured on guitar on the new box set \"Elvis Live 1969,\" featuring 11 concerts from his 1969 Vegas comeback. Here's Burton featured on guitar on a song about Vegas with Gram Parsons and Emmylou Harris.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "757066866", "date": "2019-09-03", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Elvis' Guitarist James Burton: 'I Went Professional When I Was 14'", "question_index": 40, "text": "GRAM", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "757066866", "date": "2019-09-03", "guest": "Elvis Presley", "title": "Elvis' Guitarist James Burton: 'I Went Professional When I Was 14'", "question_index": 41, "text": "After we take a short break, Ken Tucker will review an album he likes a lot - the first solo album by Chuck Cleaver, one of the leaders of the band Wussy. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Ooh, Las Vegas."}
{"id": "757867502", "date": "2019-09-05", "guest": "David Fahrenthold", "title": "From Mar-A-Lago To Trump Hotels, Reporter Says Trump Profits As President", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Vice President Mike Pence, Attorney General William Barr, Saudi lobbyists, foreign government officials are among the people who have booked rooms or ballrooms at Trump Hotels, raising serious ethical questions. We're going to talk about Trump family businesses and related questions of conflict of interest with Washington Post reporter David Fahrenthold, who has been focusing on those issues. His reporting on Donald Trump's personal charitable foundation revealed that Trump used the foundation for personal and political profit. That reporting led New York's attorney general to sue the charity, Trump and his three oldest children, alleging persistent illegal conduct. In response, Trump agreed to shut down the foundation. Fahrenthold also broke one of the most talked about stories of the Trump campaign, the \"Access Hollywood\" video in which he bragged about grabbing women by their genitals. Fahrenthold won a 2017 Pulitzer Prize for National Reporting. David Fahrenthold, welcome back to FRESH AIR. So let's start with one of the ethical questions from this week. Vice President Mike Pence was flying to meet with Ireland's president. The meeting's scheduled for Dublin, but Pence stayed at a Trump Hotel in Doonbeg more than 150 miles away from Dublin. So why was Pence and his family, and his entourage of security and aides, why were they staying in Doonbeg?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "757867502", "date": "2019-09-05", "guest": "David Fahrenthold", "title": "From Mar-A-Lago To Trump Hotels, Reporter Says Trump Profits As President", "question_index": 1, "text": "So this raises several questions. First of all, President Trump suggested that Pence stay at Trump's hotel. What questions does that raise?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The two interesting questions are why and where they stayed. So they were - he says they were visiting Doonbeg because Pence has a distant cousin who runs a pub in Doonbeg. That's the ancestral Pence "}
{"id": "757867502", "date": "2019-09-05", "guest": "David Fahrenthold", "title": "From Mar-A-Lago To Trump Hotels, Reporter Says Trump Profits As President", "question_index": 2, "text": "And let's get an idea of how much money we're talking about. It's not just Pence staying at the hotel. It's members of his family. But Pence says he's paying for them. But then you have the security and the aides traveling with him who are also staying at Trump's hotel in Doonbeg. And so if the government is paying for them to stay there, it not only increases the number - the amount of money going into The Trump Organization, we the taxpayers are paying that money, right? Aren't we paying for them to stay at the Trump Hotel?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you're looking at a president who is - I mean, he's not ordering the vice president, but does the president ever have to order the vice president to do anything? The president is suggesting to t"}
{"id": "757867502", "date": "2019-09-05", "guest": "David Fahrenthold", "title": "From Mar-A-Lago To Trump Hotels, Reporter Says Trump Profits As President", "question_index": 3, "text": "So is Pence staying at a Trump Hotel in Ireland - is that illegal? Is it an official violation of ethics? Is it murky territory?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We are and not for the first time. If you look back at Trump's travel, he stopped in Doonbeg this past summer. He was at his golf course in Turnberry the summer before. He's obviously been to Mar-a-La"}
{"id": "757867502", "date": "2019-09-05", "guest": "David Fahrenthold", "title": "From Mar-A-Lago To Trump Hotels, Reporter Says Trump Profits As President", "question_index": 4, "text": "And then, of course, there's the suggestion President Trump made that the next G-7 be held at his Doral golf resort in Florida. And just the suggestion with his description, his very florid description of how great the Doral is, sounded like an infomercial. What would it mean if the G-7 was held there in terms of ethics?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The last one - it's murky. One of the things that we have figured out in the Trump era is that the safeguards that kept the president from using the presidency to benefit themselves were mostly follow"}
{"id": "757867502", "date": "2019-09-05", "guest": "David Fahrenthold", "title": "From Mar-A-Lago To Trump Hotels, Reporter Says Trump Profits As President", "question_index": 5, "text": "And in addition to the ethical questions, security experts think the Doral would be a bad location.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It would mean that the basic promise that Trump made when he took office, which was, look, nobody can stop me from mixing my business and my presidency, but I will stop myself, you can count on me to "}
{"id": "757867502", "date": "2019-09-05", "guest": "David Fahrenthold", "title": "From Mar-A-Lago To Trump Hotels, Reporter Says Trump Profits As President", "question_index": 6, "text": "And just to give a sense of a pattern here, I'm going to mention Attorney General William Barr has planned $30,000 holiday party at the Trump International Hotel. He said other hotels were booked and that he consulted ethics officials and they said it was OK. So what questions does this raise, that the attorney general would be holding a $30,000 holiday party at a Trump Hotel in Washington, D.C.?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. If you think about the G-7, it is in an - you know, it brings seven world leaders, plus usually a few others who come to visit. It's a huge security nightmare. And so people have tended to do it"}
{"id": "757867502", "date": "2019-09-05", "guest": "David Fahrenthold", "title": "From Mar-A-Lago To Trump Hotels, Reporter Says Trump Profits As President", "question_index": 7, "text": "And as you've pointed out, the Department of Justice is defending the president's business in court, including issues related to hosting foreign governments at Trump hotels.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this is, again, a sign that there's kind of a gray area at the very top of the federal government. Things you couldn't do if you were just a civil service employee, you can do if you're a Cabine"}
{"id": "757867502", "date": "2019-09-05", "guest": "David Fahrenthold", "title": "From Mar-A-Lago To Trump Hotels, Reporter Says Trump Profits As President", "question_index": 8, "text": "So last year, foreign governments paid more than a million dollars to The Trump Organization. Ninety percent of that was spent at the Trump Hotel in Washington, D.C. Who are some of the foreign leaders and foreign businessmen who have stayed there who have official business to do with the Trump White House?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. The DOJ - and this arrangement is - it's unusual in some ways and not unusual in others. Often, the DOJ is the president's lawyer. People sued President Obama, President Clinton, whoever"}
{"id": "757867502", "date": "2019-09-05", "guest": "David Fahrenthold", "title": "From Mar-A-Lago To Trump Hotels, Reporter Says Trump Profits As President", "question_index": 9, "text": "I want to mention a couple of more that you mentioned in your articles. A wealthy Iraqi sheikh who advocates for an American military confrontation with Iran spent 26 nights at Trump's hotel on Washington. Lobbyist for the Saudi government rented 500 rooms at the Trump Hotel in Washington. So you want to talk about the kind of possible conflicts of interest this presents?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I should start by saying we don't know all of them. The ones that we know have come through media reporting - you know, looking at Instagram. You know, we - there's no comprehensive list, so the"}
{"id": "757867502", "date": "2019-09-05", "guest": "David Fahrenthold", "title": "From Mar-A-Lago To Trump Hotels, Reporter Says Trump Profits As President", "question_index": 10, "text": "So, like, the people who represent foreign governments or, you know, large corporations - this raises the question, if you book rooms in a Trump hotel, are you trying to curry favor? I don't know if that's a question any outsider can answer, but is that a question that needs to be asked?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Those two interests, among several others - these are people who want something from the federal government. In the case of the Iraqi sheikh, he wants something pretty drastic. He wants the U.S."}
{"id": "757867502", "date": "2019-09-05", "guest": "David Fahrenthold", "title": "From Mar-A-Lago To Trump Hotels, Reporter Says Trump Profits As President", "question_index": 11, "text": "So if foreign government interests have spent about a million dollars in one year in Trump Hotels - in the Trump Hotel in Washington, D.C. - can you put that in context for us? Like, is that a small part or a large part of the hotel revenues or of, like, Trump Organization money? Is that a drop in the bucket, or is that, like, a really significant amount?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Definitely. When we have asked it, almost all of them say, oh, no. It was a - you know, just a lovely place. In fact, I can only think of one person we've talked to who - or we've - that has spoken ab"}
{"id": "757867502", "date": "2019-09-05", "guest": "David Fahrenthold", "title": "From Mar-A-Lago To Trump Hotels, Reporter Says Trump Profits As President", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, if one party can cost a half a million, then the revenue would be more than a million from foreign interests, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's not a huge amount given the hotel's revenue. It's probably - I think the hotel's revenue is about $52 million a year, so that's, like, you know, 2% - something like that. The Trump Organiza"}
{"id": "757867502", "date": "2019-09-05", "guest": "David Fahrenthold", "title": "From Mar-A-Lago To Trump Hotels, Reporter Says Trump Profits As President", "question_index": 13, "text": "All right. Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Washington Post reporter David Fahrenthold. His beat is following the money of Trump family businesses and potential conflicts of interest related to those businesses, including the Trump Hotels. His reporting led Donald Trump to agree to shut down the Donald J. Trump Foundation. Fahrenthold won a Pulitzer Prize in 2017 for national reporting. We'll be right back after this short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so, you know, we had one big gala from the Kuwaitis. There was a Philippine gala if they count that because it was paid for by private interests, although the Philippine government chose the loc"}
{"id": "757867502", "date": "2019-09-05", "guest": "David Fahrenthold", "title": "From Mar-A-Lago To Trump Hotels, Reporter Says Trump Profits As President", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Washington Post reporter David Fahrenthold. He follows the money of Trump family businesses and the potential conflicts of interest and ethical questions that they raise. So we've talked about some of the foreign businessmen and government officials who've stayed at Trump hotels. We've talked about how Vice President Pence and William Barr have booked rooms at Trump hotels. Let's talk about how President Trump has booked his own hotels while on taxpayers' money. Trump has spent all or part of more than 250 days at his hotel and golf courses since becoming president. Now, obviously, he doesn't have to book his own room. But there are aides and Secret Service and, you know, probably other security that accompanies him whenever he is any place. So what are we talking about? Like, if Trump spends time - 250 days - at his hotels and golf courses, what kind of income does that bring in to his hotels?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so, you know, we had one big gala from the Kuwaitis. There was a Philippine gala if they count that because it was paid for by private interests, although the Philippine government chose the loc"}
{"id": "757867502", "date": "2019-09-05", "guest": "David Fahrenthold", "title": "From Mar-A-Lago To Trump Hotels, Reporter Says Trump Profits As President", "question_index": 15, "text": "Does he charge discount prices to his own security?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there's still so much we don't know because the government won't give up the details - or hasn't given them up yet. But each one of those visits, especially to Mar-a-Lago or to Turnberry, places"}
{"id": "757867502", "date": "2019-09-05", "guest": "David Fahrenthold", "title": "From Mar-A-Lago To Trump Hotels, Reporter Says Trump Profits As President", "question_index": 16, "text": "So there are several suits pertaining to The Trump Organization hotels. Tell us about some of those suits.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What they say - what The Trump Organization says is that they charge only their cost. But that - you know, in the case of Mar-a-Lago, it happened to coincide with the most they could possibly charge. "}
{"id": "757867502", "date": "2019-09-05", "guest": "David Fahrenthold", "title": "From Mar-A-Lago To Trump Hotels, Reporter Says Trump Profits As President", "question_index": 17, "text": "So there's no legal precedence 'cause nobody's ever used the Emoluments Clause in court before.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's been three main ones, and they all have to do with these Emoluments Clauses in the Constitution - you know, sort of these original, you know, 1700s anti-corruption statutes where the founders "}
{"id": "757867502", "date": "2019-09-05", "guest": "David Fahrenthold", "title": "From Mar-A-Lago To Trump Hotels, Reporter Says Trump Profits As President", "question_index": 18, "text": "My guest is Washington Post reporter David Fahrenthold. After we take a short break, we'll talk about ongoing attempts to make Trump's tax returns public. And we'll hear about Fahrenthold's reporting on how The Trump Organization fired undocumented workers after the public learned about the organization's reliance on them. Later, jazz critic Kevin Whitehead will review a new album that unites jazz and poetry. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I mean - no. You know, the - Jimmy Carter put his peanut farm in a blind trust. Obama actually asked for Office of Legal Counsel opinion about whether he could accept - remember Obama won the Nobe"}
{"id": "757867502", "date": "2019-09-05", "guest": "David Fahrenthold", "title": "From Mar-A-Lago To Trump Hotels, Reporter Says Trump Profits As President", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Washington Post reporter David Fahrenthold, who's been investigating Donald Trump's businesses, its finances and related questions of ethics and conflicts of interest. Fahrenthold won a 2017 Pulitzer Prize for his reporting. Trump has said that The Trump Organization is donating profits from its transactions with foreign governments to the U.S. Treasury. And it's donated about $240,000 since Trump became president. What does that mean that he's donating money to the U.S. Treasury?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I mean - no. You know, the - Jimmy Carter put his peanut farm in a blind trust. Obama actually asked for Office of Legal Counsel opinion about whether he could accept - remember Obama won the Nobe"}
{"id": "757867502", "date": "2019-09-05", "guest": "David Fahrenthold", "title": "From Mar-A-Lago To Trump Hotels, Reporter Says Trump Profits As President", "question_index": 20, "text": "And you can't calculate what - how they define profits at the Trump Org.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's sort of an odd arrangement because it seems to indicate that this money is the taxpayers' and it should go back to the taxpayers. He's not donating it to charity. He's donating it back to the U.S"}
{"id": "757867502", "date": "2019-09-05", "guest": "David Fahrenthold", "title": "From Mar-A-Lago To Trump Hotels, Reporter Says Trump Profits As President", "question_index": 21, "text": "So we've been talking about potential conflicts of interests posed by Trump Organization hotels, but there are other conflicts of interest as well. For example, Trump has been pushing to lower interest rates and has insulted the Fed chair - the chair of the Federal Reserve - for not lowering them or not lowering them fast enough. How could lowering interest rates affect Trump businesses?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, which matters because, say, Doral, right? Pick a hotel that you think is doing badly. If Trump had a hotel that was losing money and 99% of its revenue came from foreign governments, but it didn't"}
{"id": "757867502", "date": "2019-09-05", "guest": "David Fahrenthold", "title": "From Mar-A-Lago To Trump Hotels, Reporter Says Trump Profits As President", "question_index": 22, "text": "When candidate Trump was asked about his tax returns, he said that he would make them public as soon as the audit was done. There's never been any proof that there's an audit underway or that there was an audit underway when he made that statement. He certainly has not released his tax returns. On the contrary, his legal people are doing everything they can to prevent his taxes and other financial records from being released to congressional committees or the public. So you've been wanting to get your hands on his tax returns as a reporter. Just give us an overall view of some of the ongoing attempts to get Trump Organization financial records and to get the president's tax returns.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It could significantly lower Trump's own borrowing costs. So Trump has more than $300 million in outstanding loans from Deutsche Bank related to three of his properties - the Doral golf resort, his Ch"}
{"id": "757867502", "date": "2019-09-05", "guest": "David Fahrenthold", "title": "From Mar-A-Lago To Trump Hotels, Reporter Says Trump Profits As President", "question_index": 23, "text": "Is that because Congress isn't doing a very good job in trying to get those financial records? Is it because The Trump Organization is doing such a good job in trying to block any attempt to get financial records? Is it because the legal system isn't prepared for the kind of questions that we're facing now? Like, why is it taking so long?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In Congress, there's separate efforts, both to get Trump's tax returns from the U.S. government - there's a statute that says that the secretary of the Treasury shall provide copies of anyone's tax re"}
{"id": "757867502", "date": "2019-09-05", "guest": "David Fahrenthold", "title": "From Mar-A-Lago To Trump Hotels, Reporter Says Trump Profits As President", "question_index": 24, "text": "So this is just an odd arrangement here. President Trump sued to block Congress from subpoenaing his financial records, and he sued his accounting firm to stop the firm from giving the House committee detail about his past financial dealings. And as you point out, this move amounts to Trump, the leader of the executive branch, asking the judicial branch to stop the legislative branch from investigating his own financial past. That is a really unusual situation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a bit of all of the above, but I think one of the things that - if you've watched Congress for the last few years, Republican and Democrat, they're terrible at investigating. They're just really "}
{"id": "757867502", "date": "2019-09-05", "guest": "David Fahrenthold", "title": "From Mar-A-Lago To Trump Hotels, Reporter Says Trump Profits As President", "question_index": 25, "text": "But if the leader of the executive branch is asking the judicial branch to stop the legislative branch from investigating the president's financial records, is that a constitutional crisis?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. And Trump's argument has been this really novel argument that, well, Congress is only allowed - or should only be allowed - to investigate things that have to do with the legitimate legi"}
{"id": "757867502", "date": "2019-09-05", "guest": "David Fahrenthold", "title": "From Mar-A-Lago To Trump Hotels, Reporter Says Trump Profits As President", "question_index": 26, "text": "All right. Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Washington Post national reporter David Fahrenthold, who won a Pulitzer Prize in 2017 for his reporting on Trump family businesses and potential conflicts of interest raised by those businesses. We'll be right back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The judicial branch is there to referee disputes like this. I don't think we're in a constitutional crisis until the judicial branch says, Trump, you must do this, and Trump refuses. We could get ther"}
{"id": "757867502", "date": "2019-09-05", "guest": "David Fahrenthold", "title": "From Mar-A-Lago To Trump Hotels, Reporter Says Trump Profits As President", "question_index": 27, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is Washington Post national reporter David Fahrenthold. His beat is following the money of Trump family businesses and potential conflicts of interest related to those businesses, including the Trump Hotels. His reporting led Donald Trump to agreed to shut down the Donald J. Trump Foundation. Fahrenthold won a 2017 Pulitzer Prize. What have you been doing to try to get more Trump financial records, including his taxes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The judicial branch is there to referee disputes like this. I don't think we're in a constitutional crisis until the judicial branch says, Trump, you must do this, and Trump refuses. We could get ther"}
{"id": "757867502", "date": "2019-09-05", "guest": "David Fahrenthold", "title": "From Mar-A-Lago To Trump Hotels, Reporter Says Trump Profits As President", "question_index": 28, "text": "What's one of the most interesting things you've learned about a piece of his businesses?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, lots. For us, one of the challenges of covering The Trump Organization in general is it is so secretive. It doesn't give information about itself out to hardly anybody. It doesn't write press re"}
{"id": "757867502", "date": "2019-09-05", "guest": "David Fahrenthold", "title": "From Mar-A-Lago To Trump Hotels, Reporter Says Trump Profits As President", "question_index": 29, "text": "How did you find the story about the undocumented workers employed by The Trump organization?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's two examples just from this year. One is that we got some documents from inside the Trump Hotel in D.C. which showed us - they were called the VIP list. Every day, the VIP arrivals list - when"}
{"id": "757867502", "date": "2019-09-05", "guest": "David Fahrenthold", "title": "From Mar-A-Lago To Trump Hotels, Reporter Says Trump Profits As President", "question_index": 30, "text": "So they audiotaped - some of them audiotaped their own firing. What did the tapes sound like? Did they play them for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Essentially, The Trump Organization fired them. They fired a whole bunch of them. The New York Times late last year wrote a story about one undocumented worker who worked for Trump at Bedminster, his "}
{"id": "757867502", "date": "2019-09-05", "guest": "David Fahrenthold", "title": "From Mar-A-Lago To Trump Hotels, Reporter Says Trump Profits As President", "question_index": 31, "text": "So what were some of the patterns in how they were treated when they were employed by The Trump Organization?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They did, and it was - so they speak mostly Spanish. And the person the Trump Org had sent to fire them, the VP of human resources, did not speak Spanish. So you can hear on the tape - you can hear ac"}
{"id": "757867502", "date": "2019-09-05", "guest": "David Fahrenthold", "title": "From Mar-A-Lago To Trump Hotels, Reporter Says Trump Profits As President", "question_index": 32, "text": "What kind of skills have you had to learn in order to cover The Trump Organization?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That part's been really interesting, and I have to say it varies from club to club. A number of Trump businesses used undocumented workers. And in some cases, they felt very badly treated. We talked t"}
{"id": "757867502", "date": "2019-09-05", "guest": "David Fahrenthold", "title": "From Mar-A-Lago To Trump Hotels, Reporter Says Trump Profits As President", "question_index": 33, "text": "It's been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you for coming back to FRESH AIR, David Fahrenthold.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's been so much database management. It's been so much gathering information. The kind of reporter I was before this, I was sort of a political feature writer. So they'd send me to write a story abo"}
{"id": "757867502", "date": "2019-09-05", "guest": "David Fahrenthold", "title": "From Mar-A-Lago To Trump Hotels, Reporter Says Trump Profits As President", "question_index": 34, "text": "David Fahrenthold is a national reporter for The Washington Post. After we take a short break, jazz critic Kevin Whitehead will review a new album that merges jazz and poetry. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having me on."}
{"id": "757888778", "date": "2019-09-06", "guest": "Maggie Gyllenhaal", "title": "Maggie Gyllenhaal Takes On The Power Imbalance Of Sex Work In 'The Deuce'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Maggie Gyllenhaal, welcome to FRESH AIR. Welcome back.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a scene from the new season of \"The Deuce,\" which premieres Monday on HBO. A note to parents - we'll be talking about sex work and the porn industry, and you may not find it appropriate for you"}
{"id": "757888778", "date": "2019-09-06", "guest": "Maggie Gyllenhaal", "title": "Maggie Gyllenhaal Takes On The Power Imbalance Of Sex Work In 'The Deuce'", "question_index": 1, "text": "I think you're so terrific in this series. Was it difficult for you to decide whether to take the role? On the one hand, you have, like, David Simon, co-creator of \"The Wire\" and \"Treme,\" and two great writers, Richard Price and George Pelecanos, who among their other credits wrote for \"The Wire.\" On the other hand, it's about the sex industry, and you play a sex worker who enters the porn biz first as an actress, then as a director. The subject matter gives it the potential of being exploitive of women. So what did you need to know before accepting the part and before feeling confident that you had a read on how the women characters and how you as an actress were going to be treated?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "757888778", "date": "2019-09-06", "guest": "Maggie Gyllenhaal", "title": "Maggie Gyllenhaal Takes On The Power Imbalance Of Sex Work In 'The Deuce'", "question_index": 2, "text": "So what did you ask for so that you could find out more and figure out if you could trust the material?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think the thing that was unusual about this project for me was that when they asked me to do it, they only had three scripts written. And, you know, I'm interested in the themes that this proj"}
{"id": "757888778", "date": "2019-09-06", "guest": "Maggie Gyllenhaal", "title": "Maggie Gyllenhaal Takes On The Power Imbalance Of Sex Work In 'The Deuce'", "question_index": 3, "text": "How was that going to help?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I asked to be a producer."}
{"id": "757888778", "date": "2019-09-06", "guest": "Maggie Gyllenhaal", "title": "Maggie Gyllenhaal Takes On The Power Imbalance Of Sex Work In 'The Deuce'", "question_index": 4, "text": "So you wanted to be in on the conversation of how your character was going to be depicted, how sex was going to be depicted. One of the issues in \"The Deuce is how on the porn sets to treat women respectfully while having performed sex. And that's something that I imagine applies also to filming \"The Deuce\" because the actors, like you, have to perform sex scenes. And I'm sure you insisted on treated - on being treated respectfully, though maybe you didn't need to insist. Maybe that was just a kind of given on set. But were there conversations you had around that - is, like, how should the actors and actresses be treated so as not to violate them in any way while shooting these scenes? And ditto for the scenes when you were a sex worker working the streets.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "which was the - but, you know, my bargaining power wasn't, like, all that strong. But I had to say to myself, I'm not going to do it unless I can be a producer because I think that will give me this o"}
{"id": "757888778", "date": "2019-09-06", "guest": "Maggie Gyllenhaal", "title": "Maggie Gyllenhaal Takes On The Power Imbalance Of Sex Work In 'The Deuce'", "question_index": 5, "text": "On the TV series \"Girls.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, we as a crew and as actors learned a lot about this as we went the first season. And, of course, in between the first season and the second season, there was the Time's Up movement, which br"}
{"id": "757888778", "date": "2019-09-06", "guest": "Maggie Gyllenhaal", "title": "Maggie Gyllenhaal Takes On The Power Imbalance Of Sex Work In 'The Deuce'", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It was like, they must know."}
{"id": "757888778", "date": "2019-09-06", "guest": "Maggie Gyllenhaal", "title": "Maggie Gyllenhaal Takes On The Power Imbalance Of Sex Work In 'The Deuce'", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What do you - what protection do you use? How do you do this? I mean, I'd done a lot of sex scenes in my career but, I mean, not quite like these with strangers, you know? And that was something that "}
{"id": "757888778", "date": "2019-09-06", "guest": "Maggie Gyllenhaal", "title": "Maggie Gyllenhaal Takes On The Power Imbalance Of Sex Work In 'The Deuce'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Is there anything from the physical barrier that you came up with that is describable on radio with radio standards?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I was like, that's what Alicia's there for."}
{"id": "757888778", "date": "2019-09-06", "guest": "Maggie Gyllenhaal", "title": "Maggie Gyllenhaal Takes On The Power Imbalance Of Sex Work In 'The Deuce'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Yeah. And there - you mentioned day players. There's a lot of day players because all of the johns, some of the characters in the porn films - they don't figure into other episodes, so they are the day players who the women characters are having sex with.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, basically it was a piece of a yoga mat put inside a pillow case. And we would just play the pillow case as if it were part of the sheets and then push it out of the way in order to continue on w"}
{"id": "757888778", "date": "2019-09-06", "guest": "Maggie Gyllenhaal", "title": "Maggie Gyllenhaal Takes On The Power Imbalance Of Sex Work In 'The Deuce'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And the idea is - I mean, if you want to make it not \"Pretty Woman\"..."}
{"id": "757888778", "date": "2019-09-06", "guest": "Maggie Gyllenhaal", "title": "Maggie Gyllenhaal Takes On The Power Imbalance Of Sex Work In 'The Deuce'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Maggie Gyllenhaal. She stars in the HBO series \"The Deuce.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Well, then in a way, you have to show, OK, there's this guy. And then two hours later, there's this guy. And then there's this guy, and then there's this guy. And that was a part of it, and it wasn"}
{"id": "757888778", "date": "2019-09-06", "guest": "Maggie Gyllenhaal", "title": "Maggie Gyllenhaal Takes On The Power Imbalance Of Sex Work In 'The Deuce'", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is Maggie Gyllenhaal, who stars in the HBO series \"The Deuce.\" And she plays a sex worker who has become a porn film actress and director and is trying to show things more from a woman's point of view in her porn films. There's one scene I want to ask you about where she's with, you know, a john, a customer, in a cheap hotel room. And he starts to, like, slap her and hit her, and she takes out - you - takes out some mace from in her purse and sprays him. And he's, like, shocked and temporarily blinded. She uses that as an opportunity to run to the door to get out of this hotel room, but the door is locked. And by the time she unlocks it, he's, like, dragging her back in by the hair. And then the door closes. The camera stays on the outside of the room. You and the john are on the inside of the room, so we don't see what's happening. But we hear how your character is being really badly beaten up. And I'm wondering what that scene was like for you and how it was filmed so that you didn't get hurt.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Well, then in a way, you have to show, OK, there's this guy. And then two hours later, there's this guy. And then there's this guy, and then there's this guy. And that was a part of it, and it wasn"}
{"id": "757888778", "date": "2019-09-06", "guest": "Maggie Gyllenhaal", "title": "Maggie Gyllenhaal Takes On The Power Imbalance Of Sex Work In 'The Deuce'", "question_index": 13, "text": "This was when he's pulling you by the hair? Was that the problem?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, that scene for me I would say is like - I know it was affecting to watch because Uta Briesewitz, who directed it, is a beautiful director. And yet for me, it was very clinical. I was like,"}
{"id": "757888778", "date": "2019-09-06", "guest": "Maggie Gyllenhaal", "title": "Maggie Gyllenhaal Takes On The Power Imbalance Of Sex Work In 'The Deuce'", "question_index": 14, "text": "It's an interesting scene, too, 'cause you're talking about the emotional complexity. Like, you're feeling very vulnerable at that point because you've been really badly beaten up, and now you're back on the street again. And so when the pimp, like, tells you, like, you need someone. This would never happen. I'd protect you. Like, you are definitely pushing him away. At the same time, you're in tears and you weep in his arms, temporarily. And you can tell...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Or something. I don't know. Thrashing around on the bed, or whatever. But I'm much more interested in scenes that require something difficult or complicated or a difficult map to have to walk em"}
{"id": "757888778", "date": "2019-09-06", "guest": "Maggie Gyllenhaal", "title": "Maggie Gyllenhaal Takes On The Power Imbalance Of Sex Work In 'The Deuce'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And she doesn't have a dad."}
{"id": "757888778", "date": "2019-09-06", "guest": "Maggie Gyllenhaal", "title": "Maggie Gyllenhaal Takes On The Power Imbalance Of Sex Work In 'The Deuce'", "question_index": 16, "text": "And he doesn't.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know? That's the whole thing that's set up in the whole first season. Like, she has no dad. And the whole pimp thing, like, they're always calling them Daddy. You know, I do feel like she just wan"}
{"id": "757888778", "date": "2019-09-06", "guest": "Maggie Gyllenhaal", "title": "Maggie Gyllenhaal Takes On The Power Imbalance Of Sex Work In 'The Deuce'", "question_index": 17, "text": "My guest is Maggie Gyllenhaal. She stars in the HBO series \"The Deuce.\" She also stars in the new movie, \"The Kindergarten Teacher,\" which opens in theaters and starts streaming on Netflix October 12. After a break, we'll talk about the Time's Up, #MeToo movement. And David Bianculli will review the new Netflix series, \"Maniac,\" starring Jonah Hill and Emma Stone. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think - he doesn't. No. She walks out the street."}
{"id": "757888778", "date": "2019-09-06", "guest": "Maggie Gyllenhaal", "title": "Maggie Gyllenhaal Takes On The Power Imbalance Of Sex Work In 'The Deuce'", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross back with Maggie Gyllenhaal. She stars in the HBO series, \"The Deuce,\" about the intersection of sex workers, pornography, organized crime, the police, politicians and feminists in the Times Square area of Manhattan in the 1970s. It's also about changing attitudes towards sex in that period and how pornography became more mainstream. The third episode of Season 2 of \"The Deuce\" will be shown on HBO Sunday night. Gyllenhaal also stars in the new movie, \"The Kindergarten Teacher,\" which opens in theaters and starts streaming on Netflix October 12. We'll talk about that a little later. I want to talk with you about the Time's Up, the #MeToo movement, which started in a big way a little less than a year ago after the allegations against Harvey Weinstein, which means that the first season of \"The Deuce\" was written before that. The second season, I assume, was written after that. So how did all the women coming forward in the industry, in the Hollywood industry and in other fields, change the conversations that you were having with the people you work, with including the writers and producers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think - he doesn't. No. She walks out the street."}
{"id": "757888778", "date": "2019-09-06", "guest": "Maggie Gyllenhaal", "title": "Maggie Gyllenhaal Takes On The Power Imbalance Of Sex Work In 'The Deuce'", "question_index": 19, "text": "This was on the \"Access Hollywood\" tape that was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Personally, I think one of the things that really spurred on the birth of the Time's Up movement was not just Harvey Weinstein but was Trump being elected and saying everywhere - on national televisio"}
{"id": "757888778", "date": "2019-09-06", "guest": "Maggie Gyllenhaal", "title": "Maggie Gyllenhaal Takes On The Power Imbalance Of Sex Work In 'The Deuce'", "question_index": 20, "text": "One of the complications for \"The Deuce\" is that James Franco is one of the men alleged by several women to have behaved in a sexually inappropriate or sexually exploitive way. Once the women making those allegations came forward, my understanding - and you can correct me if I'm wrong - is that the producers had to figure out how and even if to proceed after that.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. We're listening to Terry's interview with Maggie Gyllenhaal. She stars in the HBO series \"The Deuce.\" Its third season premieres Monday. The ser"}
{"id": "757888778", "date": "2019-09-06", "guest": "Maggie Gyllenhaal", "title": "Maggie Gyllenhaal Takes On The Power Imbalance Of Sex Work In 'The Deuce'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Early in your career when you were, I think, 23, you starred in a movie called \"Secretary.\" That's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think we all had to do exactly what I'm - what I was just describing, which is, we had to do the most careful, nuanced, intelligent, clear thinking - all of us - and assess the situation. I fe"}
{"id": "757888778", "date": "2019-09-06", "guest": "Maggie Gyllenhaal", "title": "Maggie Gyllenhaal Takes On The Power Imbalance Of Sex Work In 'The Deuce'", "question_index": 22, "text": "22, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Younger - 22."}
{"id": "757888778", "date": "2019-09-06", "guest": "Maggie Gyllenhaal", "title": "Maggie Gyllenhaal Takes On The Power Imbalance Of Sex Work In 'The Deuce'", "question_index": 23, "text": "And you played a young woman who's gotten out of a mental health institution - you're a cutter, you cut yourself - and get a job as a secretary although you have no secretarial skill. And you ended up - you end up being in an S&M relationship with your boss, played by James Spader. And you both realize that there's something really truly fulfilling you find about that relationship. And in a way, it's become a healthier outlet for your character than cutting herself has been. And you had to really expose yourself physically for that role as well. Did that lead you to any thinking that was good preparation for what you have to do on \"The Deuce\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think so, yeah."}
{"id": "757888778", "date": "2019-09-06", "guest": "Maggie Gyllenhaal", "title": "Maggie Gyllenhaal Takes On The Power Imbalance Of Sex Work In 'The Deuce'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Maggie Gyllenhaal. And she stars in the HBO series \"The Deuce.\" She also stars in a new movie called \"The Kindergarten Teacher.\" Let's talk about that film a little bit. It might seem like, oh, night and day. She's a sex worker and porn director in \"The Deuce\" and a kindergarten teacher in", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know? In reality, I was growing up. And, you know, that's captured inside of that movie."}
{"id": "757888778", "date": "2019-09-06", "guest": "Maggie Gyllenhaal", "title": "Maggie Gyllenhaal Takes On The Power Imbalance Of Sex Work In 'The Deuce'", "question_index": 25, "text": "\"The Kindergarten Teacher.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know? In reality, I was growing up. And, you know, that's captured inside of that movie."}
{"id": "757888778", "date": "2019-09-06", "guest": "Maggie Gyllenhaal", "title": "Maggie Gyllenhaal Takes On The Power Imbalance Of Sex Work In 'The Deuce'", "question_index": 26, "text": "Yes, except that you have some serious problems in \"The Kindergarten Teacher\" and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "757888778", "date": "2019-09-06", "guest": "Maggie Gyllenhaal", "title": "Maggie Gyllenhaal Takes On The Power Imbalance Of Sex Work In 'The Deuce'", "question_index": 27, "text": "Because the character you play is somebody who writes poetry. And that's really what she wants to do, but no one takes any notice of her poems. And she finds a strange outlet for her poetic creativity and impulses.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "757888778", "date": "2019-09-06", "guest": "Maggie Gyllenhaal", "title": "Maggie Gyllenhaal Takes On The Power Imbalance Of Sex Work In 'The Deuce'", "question_index": 28, "text": "You had said that you thought the character - your character on \"The Deuce\" and your character on \"The Kindergarten Teacher\" had a connection. Do you want to explain now the connection that you see between the two of them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I think \"The Kindergarten Teacher\" is a movie about, you know, what are the consequences - the real consequences of starving a vibrant woman's mind? And it's told by a group of women fil"}
{"id": "757888778", "date": "2019-09-06", "guest": "Maggie Gyllenhaal", "title": "Maggie Gyllenhaal Takes On The Power Imbalance Of Sex Work In 'The Deuce'", "question_index": 29, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah. I think both women, both characters, like many women right now, are waking up to the fact that they've been accepting a way of living that they're not OK with, and not only not OK with, bu"}
{"id": "757888778", "date": "2019-09-06", "guest": "Maggie Gyllenhaal", "title": "Maggie Gyllenhaal Takes On The Power Imbalance Of Sex Work In 'The Deuce'", "question_index": 30, "text": "Maggie Gyllenhaal, it's just been such a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But anyway, that's how - yes, that's how I think they're related because those are the things that are on my mind."}
{"id": "759384251", "date": "2019-09-10", "guest": "Megan Twohey", "title": "'She Said' Reveals The People And Practices That Protected Weinstein", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Harvey Weinstein created many obstacles to prevent women from revealing his alleged sexual misconduct and prevent reporters from investigating it. My guests, New York Times reporters Jodi Kantor and Megan Twohey, were the first reporters to manage to get enough sources and documents to break the story. They tell how they did it in their new book \"She Said.\" It includes new information about how and why the women came forward and what they allege. The book also reveals new information about Weinstein's legal team and what they did to protect him, discredit his accusers and create obstacles for journalists. Kantor and Twohey found that the legal system and government agencies often work in favor of the harasser, not the victim. Weinstein is now awaiting criminal trial for alleged rape and other sexual abuse and faces several civil suits from actresses and employees. Kantor and Twohey have become experts in reporting on the issue of sexual abuse. Between the two of them, they've reported on allegations against Donald Trump, Louis C.K., Brett Kavanaugh and Jeffrey Epstein. Jodi Kantor, Megan Twohey - welcome back to FRESH AIR. Why did you want to write about how you got the story, how you investigated it?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "759384251", "date": "2019-09-10", "guest": "Megan Twohey", "title": "'She Said' Reveals The People And Practices That Protected Weinstein", "question_index": 1, "text": "One of the obstacles you faced in reporting this story was the confidentiality agreements that Harvey Weinstein had women sign. At what point did he pressure women to sign these confidentiality agreements? There were also payoffs because it was, like, money to the woman in exchange for her signing this confidentiality agreement, this nondisclosure agreement.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, at the time of our investigation, we had a good view of what was going on behind the scenes. Some of that went into the initial story, but a lot of that was drama that was playing out sort o"}
{"id": "759384251", "date": "2019-09-10", "guest": "Megan Twohey", "title": "'She Said' Reveals The People And Practices That Protected Weinstein", "question_index": 2, "text": "So what kinds of legal consequences were women supposed to face, did women fear they would face if they spoke to you? And have any of the women who spoke to you and broke their nondisclosure agreements faced any legal or financial consequences?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So here's the pattern we found again and again with these suffocating nondisclosure agreements that women signed - after an allegation of harassment or assault, a woman would go to a lawyer for help, "}
{"id": "759384251", "date": "2019-09-10", "guest": "Megan Twohey", "title": "'She Said' Reveals The People And Practices That Protected Weinstein", "question_index": 3, "text": "Yes, and that was kind of remarkable because Gloria Allred is famous for defending women who stand up and accuse their harassers, and she led one of her clients to sign an NDA. But she justified that to you. She said, this was going to be the best outcome for my client.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the fear was very real, Terry. There was this moment in the investigation where we had identified a woman who had been allegedly sexually assaulted by Weinstein in 1990, when she was working her"}
{"id": "759384251", "date": "2019-09-10", "guest": "Megan Twohey", "title": "'She Said' Reveals The People And Practices That Protected Weinstein", "question_index": 4, "text": "So we've been talking about Gloria Allred. Her daughter, Lisa Bloom, who is also a lawyer who has worked with many victims of sexual harassment and assault, you expected - when you heard she was a part of this story, you expected her to be defending women. But she was actually on Harvey Weinstein's legal team. And what was her role on Weinstein's team?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's the traditional argument. But what these - Gloria Allred and her firm were also involved in at least one confidential settlement involving Bill O'Reilly and also another involving Larry Nassar."}
{"id": "759384251", "date": "2019-09-10", "guest": "Megan Twohey", "title": "'She Said' Reveals The People And Practices That Protected Weinstein", "question_index": 5, "text": "Yeah. That would be great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This whole saga is filled with so many surprises in terms of who helped and who hindered and who was on which side. And Lisa Bloom was - Lisa Bloom crossed sides. She decided to help Harvey Weinstein."}
{"id": "759384251", "date": "2019-09-10", "guest": "Megan Twohey", "title": "'She Said' Reveals The People And Practices That Protected Weinstein", "question_index": 6, "text": "It's on page...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "759384251", "date": "2019-09-10", "guest": "Megan Twohey", "title": "'She Said' Reveals The People And Practices That Protected Weinstein", "question_index": 7, "text": "...It's on page 100.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "759384251", "date": "2019-09-10", "guest": "Megan Twohey", "title": "'She Said' Reveals The People And Practices That Protected Weinstein", "question_index": 8, "text": "I want to ask you about Gwyneth Paltrow's role in all of this. She wouldn't talk to you on the record for your first story. But she helped you find other women who had been sexually harassed or assaulted by Harvey Weinstein. So tell us a little bit about what her story was and why she didn't want to talk with you on the record.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", in the second one, she's saying - she's spelling out a plan for a counter-ops online campaign to push back and call her out as a pathological liar. A few well-placed articles now will go a long way "}
{"id": "759384251", "date": "2019-09-10", "guest": "Megan Twohey", "title": "'She Said' Reveals The People And Practices That Protected Weinstein", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here. And then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guests are New York Times reporter Jodi Kantor and Megan Twohey. They've written a new book called \"She Said,\" which is about how they broke the Harvey Weinstein story and about the obstacles Weinstein created to prevent women from coming forward and stop reporters from investigating the story. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So to our surprise, Gwyneth Paltrow had a really powerful story of sexual harassment by Harvey Weinstein and of being threatened when her first really important roles were on the line. And early on in"}
{"id": "759384251", "date": "2019-09-10", "guest": "Megan Twohey", "title": "'She Said' Reveals The People And Practices That Protected Weinstein", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guests are New York Times reporters Jodi Kantor and Megan Twohey. Their new book \"She Said\" is about how they broke the Harvey Weinstein story and about the obstacles Weinstein created to prevent women from coming forward and stop reporters from investigating the story. So you mentioned this Israeli private investigation firm with former Mossad agents in it. And one of the people who helped negotiate the contract with this Israeli firm that was, among other things, trying to stop your investigation was David Boies, who's most famous for working on behalf of marriage equality, arguing that - representing Al Gore in Bush v. Gore. He is also a very famous corporate lawyer. So is it fair to say part of his job on Harvey Weinstein's team was covering up Weinstein's misconduct and trying to smear people who opposed him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So to our surprise, Gwyneth Paltrow had a really powerful story of sexual harassment by Harvey Weinstein and of being threatened when her first really important roles were on the line. And early on in"}
{"id": "759384251", "date": "2019-09-10", "guest": "Megan Twohey", "title": "'She Said' Reveals The People And Practices That Protected Weinstein", "question_index": 11, "text": "My guests are New York Times reporters Jodi Kantor and Megan Twohey, authors of the new book \"She Said.\" After we take a short break, we'll talk more about their investigation into Harvey Weinstein, including the final showdown with Weinstein before publication. And jazz critic Kevin Whitehead will review a new album by singer and composer Jazzmeia Horn. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, we realized too that David Boies was not just taking money from Harvey Weinstein in exchange for working for him but that they got kind of enmeshed. David Boies had wanted to get into the fi"}
{"id": "759384251", "date": "2019-09-10", "guest": "Megan Twohey", "title": "'She Said' Reveals The People And Practices That Protected Weinstein", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to our interview with New York Times reporters Jodi Kantor and Megan Twohey. Their new book \"She Said\" is about how they broke the story of how Harvey Weinstein allegedly sexually harassed and assaulted actresses and women employed in his company. There were many obstacles the reporters had to overcome - confidentiality agreements that prevented women from speaking about their allegations against Weinstein, Weinstein's threats about ruining the careers of women who came forward and Weinstein's lawyers and private detectives, who tried to prevent any investigation of his behavior, including Katnor and Twohey's investigation. Some executives in his company were aware there were accusations against him. Let's talk about Irwin Reiter. He was an executive in Weinstein's company for accounting and financial reporting. He had been described to you as hating Weinstein, but he was a top lieutenant in the company. And he gave you something that was pretty crucial to your investigation, and it was a complaint that was filed by Lauren O'Connor. Tell us who Lauren O'Connor is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, we realized too that David Boies was not just taking money from Harvey Weinstein in exchange for working for him but that they got kind of enmeshed. David Boies had wanted to get into the fi"}
{"id": "759384251", "date": "2019-09-10", "guest": "Megan Twohey", "title": "'She Said' Reveals The People And Practices That Protected Weinstein", "question_index": 13, "text": "Can I just read another line from this? She says...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Lauren O'Connor is really one of the most remarkable figures in the Weinstein story. She was a junior executive working at his company. And in 2015, she did something that so few people in his orbi"}
{"id": "759384251", "date": "2019-09-10", "guest": "Megan Twohey", "title": "'She Said' Reveals The People And Practices That Protected Weinstein", "question_index": 14, "text": "...On trips with Harvey, I was instructed by him to meet with aspiring actresses after they had a, quote, \"personal appointment\" in Harvey's hotel room. Harvey instructed me to greet them when they came down to the hotel lobby and facilitate introductions for them to managers and agents, as well as assisting in casting them in Weinstein Company projects. And she says it was only female employees, female executives, put in these positions. And that her understanding was that, quote, \"he has either had or wants to have sexual relations with them.\" Female Weinstein employees are essentially used to facilitate his sexual conquests of vulnerable women who hope he will get them work. So that's what she writes in that memo. So that was pretty important evidence for you. Tell us how - what that memo contributed to your investigation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure, yeah."}
{"id": "759384251", "date": "2019-09-10", "guest": "Megan Twohey", "title": "'She Said' Reveals The People And Practices That Protected Weinstein", "question_index": 15, "text": "Let's get to another story that you write about, which is talking to Harvey Weinstein's brother and business partner, Bob Weinstein. How did you convince him to talk with you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "First of all, we had been documenting allegations of sexual misconduct against Weinstein going back to 1990. And in some ways, we had been unearthing things that had happened in the '90s and the earli"}
{"id": "759384251", "date": "2019-09-10", "guest": "Megan Twohey", "title": "'She Said' Reveals The People And Practices That Protected Weinstein", "question_index": 16, "text": "So he was thinking of this as, like, a mental health issue. And I just want to quote a couple of the things in the letter that he writes to Harvey about this. He says, (reading) over the years, I can, if I wanted to, list at least 100 times - I'm not exaggerating - that's five times a year over 20 employees have come to my office complaining that they've been verbally and emotionally abused by you. They have reported to me that you have called them stupid, incompetent idiots, etc. You are not speaking about their work but about them personally. You denigrated these people as human beings. He says later, (reading) for my part, I started to feel sad and angry. I looked at you as someone who had completely lost his way and did not value people as separate human beings, that you did not care about their basic right to have dignity. For the record, you have physically assaulted me in your office and lied about it and minimized it as recently as a few weeks ago in your therapist's office when I brought it up. That's some heavy stuff.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That had really been one of the kind of pressing questions that we had coming out of that original Weinstein article. You know, his brother, his only sibling, had been his business partner for decades"}
{"id": "759384251", "date": "2019-09-10", "guest": "Megan Twohey", "title": "'She Said' Reveals The People And Practices That Protected Weinstein", "question_index": 17, "text": "So let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guests are New York Times reporters Jodi Kantor and Megan Twohey. Their new book about breaking the Harvey Weinstein story is called \"She Said.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is, and it is indeed heavy stuff. And it took place in this one year, in 2015, when there were a variety of people in the company from Irwin Reiter, the accountant, to Lance Maerov, who is one of t"}
{"id": "759384251", "date": "2019-09-10", "guest": "Megan Twohey", "title": "'She Said' Reveals The People And Practices That Protected Weinstein", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guests are New York Times reporters Jodi Kantor and Megan Twohey. Their new book, \"She Said,\" is about how they broke the Harvey Weinstein story and about the obstacles Weinstein created to prevent women from coming forward and stop reporters from investigating the story. When you knew that you were ready to publish, you had to go to Weinstein and his team and get their comments. I'd like you to describe a little bit about what happened when you contacted Weinstein and told him you had the story and you were going to publish it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is, and it is indeed heavy stuff. And it took place in this one year, in 2015, when there were a variety of people in the company from Irwin Reiter, the accountant, to Lance Maerov, who is one of t"}
{"id": "759384251", "date": "2019-09-10", "guest": "Megan Twohey", "title": "'She Said' Reveals The People And Practices That Protected Weinstein", "question_index": 19, "text": "He told you he was going to do that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. I mean, this is something that journalists do every day. A lot of what we describe in this book is just the classic tools of journalism that our peers use, peers all over the country, things tha"}
{"id": "759384251", "date": "2019-09-10", "guest": "Megan Twohey", "title": "'She Said' Reveals The People And Practices That Protected Weinstein", "question_index": 20, "text": "So describe the final showdown between the editor of The New York Times, Dean Baquet, and Harvey Weinstein.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He threatened to do that. And it's a classic dirty way to undercut a story; you soften the blow by going to another publication first and sort of taking ownership but doing kind of, like, a half-baked"}
{"id": "759384251", "date": "2019-09-10", "guest": "Megan Twohey", "title": "'She Said' Reveals The People And Practices That Protected Weinstein", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one of Dean's precepts is that he really wants the reporters to do the work themselves. And Weinstein had repeatedly contacted, I think, Baquet and also Arthur Sulzberger, the former publisher. "}
{"id": "759384251", "date": "2019-09-10", "guest": "Megan Twohey", "title": "'She Said' Reveals The People And Practices That Protected Weinstein", "question_index": 22, "text": "So in spite of the fact that Dean Baquet says to Weinstein, talk to the reporters, there is a final showdown between Baquet and Weinstein. Describe that to us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And our boss, to his credit, said, talk to the reporters. Talk to the reporters. But it was also kind of a chess game because remember that, for a long time in this initial investigation, we refused t"}
{"id": "759384251", "date": "2019-09-10", "guest": "Megan Twohey", "title": "'She Said' Reveals The People And Practices That Protected Weinstein", "question_index": 23, "text": "Between the two of you, you've reported on so many sexual harassment and sexual assault stories, including, of course, Harvey Weinstein, Louis C.K., the allegations against Brett Kavanaugh, Jeffrey Epstein. I'm leaving out some, too. But one of the things you don't like is the catchphrase \"believe women.\" I want you to explain why.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. So at that point, we had been dealing with Weinstein's team for days and days, and it was frankly a very confusing experience because he had about five high-paid legal and PR advisers, everybody f"}
{"id": "759384251", "date": "2019-09-10", "guest": "Megan Twohey", "title": "'She Said' Reveals The People And Practices That Protected Weinstein", "question_index": 24, "text": "Jodi Kantor, Megan Twohey, thank you both so much for this interview and for your reporting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, the spirit of that imperative is one of our lodestars. Megan and I have devoted our careers, separately and now together, to documenting women's stories and putting them into the paper. So w"}
{"id": "759384251", "date": "2019-09-10", "guest": "Megan Twohey", "title": "'She Said' Reveals The People And Practices That Protected Weinstein", "question_index": 25, "text": "Jodi Kantor and Megan Twohey are reporters for The New York Times. Their new book about breaking the Harvey Weinstein story is called \"She Said.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "760128833", "date": "2019-09-12", "guest": "Kate O'Neill", "title": "'Waste' Examines The Global And Local Afterlife of Recyclables", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. I don't know about you, but I've been really confused lately about how and what I should be recycling. And I'm confused about what happens to my recycling after it's carted away. I'm referring to plastics and paper as well as electronics, including old phones and computers. We used to ship a lot of our waste to China for recycling. But recently, China stopped taking it. Now what? What are governments doing and what is industry doing to deal with the problem of waste? These are just some of the questions I'll be asking my guest, Kate O'Neill, author of the new book \"Waste.\" She's a professor of environmental science, policy and management at the University of California, Berkeley. Kate O'Neill, welcome to FRESH AIR. So I am so confused about what to recycle and what I shouldn't recycle, and I'm worried about contaminating the recycling by recycling the wrong thing. What does it mean to contaminate the recycling?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "760128833", "date": "2019-09-12", "guest": "Kate O'Neill", "title": "'Waste' Examines The Global And Local Afterlife of Recyclables", "question_index": 1, "text": "So help me understand what kind of plastic bottles and containers I can recycle.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first, Terry, you're not alone in that. I think understanding how recycling gets contaminated is a very critical question for a lot of people now. Recycling can get contaminated in a couple of w"}
{"id": "760128833", "date": "2019-09-12", "guest": "Kate O'Neill", "title": "'Waste' Examines The Global And Local Afterlife of Recyclables", "question_index": 2, "text": "Now, I know, like, those plastic bags, those flimsy plastic bags that you get at a lot of supermarkets and other food stores, they're a real menace right now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. The thing with plastics is that it's not easy. Plastics come with different numbers on the base, numbers one through seven. And they're surrounded by a little recycling symbol, which makes it al"}
{"id": "760128833", "date": "2019-09-12", "guest": "Kate O'Neill", "title": "'Waste' Examines The Global And Local Afterlife of Recyclables", "question_index": 3, "text": "But how come we can't recycle them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep."}
{"id": "760128833", "date": "2019-09-12", "guest": "Kate O'Neill", "title": "'Waste' Examines The Global And Local Afterlife of Recyclables", "question_index": 4, "text": "So in the past, much of our recycling was exported, and exported to China. So before we get to why China is no longer accepting our recycled waste, why was it this import, export business? Why have we been, or had we been, exporting our recycling to other countries?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They cannot be recycled because they are really - the plastic in them is too soft and too low-quality. I think with - one thing with plastics to know is that they are hard to upcycle. They can usually"}
{"id": "760128833", "date": "2019-09-12", "guest": "Kate O'Neill", "title": "'Waste' Examines The Global And Local Afterlife of Recyclables", "question_index": 5, "text": "But China stopped taking our recycling waste last year as part of this new policy. They call it the National Sword policy. Why did they stop taking it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we started really exporting plastic and paper waste to China in the early years of the century. And I might add that China has been the lead importer of what we think of as good scrap, like meta"}
{"id": "760128833", "date": "2019-09-12", "guest": "Kate O'Neill", "title": "'Waste' Examines The Global And Local Afterlife of Recyclables", "question_index": 6, "text": "Well, not everything that we sent to China was recyclable in China. Not all of it could be reused and manufactured into something else. So what was happening with the waste from our recycling that wasn't reusable, and what problems was that causing for China?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They stopped for some pretty good reasons. One reason was that Western countries on the whole were pretty much taking advantage of China's willingness to import plastics. So they were receiving a lot "}
{"id": "760128833", "date": "2019-09-12", "guest": "Kate O'Neill", "title": "'Waste' Examines The Global And Local Afterlife of Recyclables", "question_index": 7, "text": "Since China stopped taking our recycling last year, are there countries that have stepped in to fill the gap? Like, what are we doing with the recycling that we used to send to China?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Well, I'll start by saying that more of it was recycled in China than would be recycled here. They had maintained more recycling facilities. I think the issue there - and this relates to wha"}
{"id": "760128833", "date": "2019-09-12", "guest": "Kate O'Neill", "title": "'Waste' Examines The Global And Local Afterlife of Recyclables", "question_index": 8, "text": "But I read in an article from a couple of years ago - so maybe this has changed - that the U.S. hasn't built a new high quality plastics recycling facility since 2003.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's, again, a complicated but big question. Soon after China announced that it was going to stop importing plastic and paper scrap, the scrap itself started being shipped to other countries almost "}
{"id": "760128833", "date": "2019-09-12", "guest": "Kate O'Neill", "title": "'Waste' Examines The Global And Local Afterlife of Recyclables", "question_index": 9, "text": "So after China decided to no longer import recycling from countries like the U.S. - and suddenly we had this, like, huge surplus of recycling and nowhere to go with some of it because other countries stopped taking it, too, what happened to a lot of that recycling? Did we just put it into landfills?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. That - that was - as far as I can tell, that was true, that we had really just outsourced our recycling to China in particular. So there are a lot of really gloomy assessments around that "}
{"id": "760128833", "date": "2019-09-12", "guest": "Kate O'Neill", "title": "'Waste' Examines The Global And Local Afterlife of Recyclables", "question_index": 10, "text": "And this is the price that countries paid...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, pretty much. I think that a lot of the companies that I've talked to have been very frustrated about this. They had to deal with these huge stockpiles. And the price collapsed, obviously. So the"}
{"id": "760128833", "date": "2019-09-12", "guest": "Kate O'Neill", "title": "'Waste' Examines The Global And Local Afterlife of Recyclables", "question_index": 11, "text": "...For importing our waste because they could repurpose it into something else.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh."}
{"id": "760128833", "date": "2019-09-12", "guest": "Kate O'Neill", "title": "'Waste' Examines The Global And Local Afterlife of Recyclables", "question_index": 12, "text": "You know, when we throw something away or, you know, recycle something, it's kind of gone. Like, we don't follow what happens to it afterwards. But there really is this, like, huge global economy of waste.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And specifically it was the price that waste brokers from these countries would pay the recycling facilities to actually take the waste away. So we went from - and companies and municipalities w"}
{"id": "760128833", "date": "2019-09-12", "guest": "Kate O'Neill", "title": "'Waste' Examines The Global And Local Afterlife of Recyclables", "question_index": 13, "text": "Since our options are now limited in terms of exporting our recycling and since right now we don't have enough American recycling plants to deal with all recycling, the emphasis on not using - you know, not purchasing or manufacturing certain kinds of plastics is increasing. One of the big rallying points is plastic straws. How did plastic straws, which are comparatively small compared to plastic bottles, become such a rallying point?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, goodness yes. I think one of the biggest things I found when writing this book and even thinking about it for a while is that we really need to change our thinking about waste, that it's not somet"}
{"id": "760128833", "date": "2019-09-12", "guest": "Kate O'Neill", "title": "'Waste' Examines The Global And Local Afterlife of Recyclables", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us my, guest is Kate O'Neill, author of the new book \"Waste,\" which is about recycling and the global politics of waste. She's a professor in the Department of Environmental Science Policy and Management at UC Berkeley. We'll be right back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think that plastic straws have really been a fascinating case to really start enacting some of these measures to restrict single-use plastics. I think plastic straws - a couple of actual youth"}
{"id": "760128833", "date": "2019-09-12", "guest": "Kate O'Neill", "title": "'Waste' Examines The Global And Local Afterlife of Recyclables", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, we're talking about recycling, waste and the global politics of waste. My guest is Kate O'Neill, who writes about all of this in her new book, \"Waste.\" She's a professor in the Department of Environmental Science, Policy and Management at the University of California, Berkeley. The European Parliament, the parliament of the European Union, approved a law banning a variety of single-use plastic items by 2021. Has anything similar ever been introduced into Congress in the U.S.?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think that plastic straws have really been a fascinating case to really start enacting some of these measures to restrict single-use plastics. I think plastic straws - a couple of actual youth"}
{"id": "760128833", "date": "2019-09-12", "guest": "Kate O'Neill", "title": "'Waste' Examines The Global And Local Afterlife of Recyclables", "question_index": 16, "text": "So just a few months ago, 186 countries signed an amendment to the Basel Convention that restricts international trade in hazardous waste. So what's this new edition?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The short answer is no. The U.S. is one of the few countries that has very little waste regulation at the federal level, particularly of this category of municipal solid waste to which paper and plast"}
{"id": "760128833", "date": "2019-09-12", "guest": "Kate O'Neill", "title": "'Waste' Examines The Global And Local Afterlife of Recyclables", "question_index": 17, "text": "So in other words, there can't be just, like, a business in Thailand that says, yeah, we want your waste. The government has to approve it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This new edition was quite a surprise to those of us who follow these issues. It's very true that there's no global legislation around plastics. And many people were kind of looking for a way to creat"}
{"id": "760128833", "date": "2019-09-12", "guest": "Kate O'Neill", "title": "'Waste' Examines The Global And Local Afterlife of Recyclables", "question_index": 18, "text": "My guest is Kate O'Neill, author of the new book \"Waste.\" After we take a short break, we'll talk about e-waste from computers, devices and appliances and unique problems we face with waste from disasters. Also, Ken Tucker will review the new Ken Burns' history of country music that begins Sunday on public television. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "in some ways. Yes. I mean, that's the advantage, it's the strength of this measure that companies cannot just simply say, yes. The disadvantage is, well, who in the government is going to issue this a"}
{"id": "760128833", "date": "2019-09-12", "guest": "Kate O'Neill", "title": "'Waste' Examines The Global And Local Afterlife of Recyclables", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Kate O'Neill, author of the new book \"Waste\" about the global politics of waste and recycling. She's a professor of environmental science policy and management at the University of California, Berkeley. So let's talk about e-waste and some of the complicated issues that that presents, both in terms of recycling but also in terms of the value of what's in that recycled material and the toxins that are in that recycled material. So what comes under the category of e-waste?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "in some ways. Yes. I mean, that's the advantage, it's the strength of this measure that companies cannot just simply say, yes. The disadvantage is, well, who in the government is going to issue this a"}
{"id": "760128833", "date": "2019-09-12", "guest": "Kate O'Neill", "title": "'Waste' Examines The Global And Local Afterlife of Recyclables", "question_index": 20, "text": "And what are the valuable materials that can be reused within these electronics and the toxic materials in it that are very hazardous?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "E-waste is a very general category that encompasses a lot of different things. We tend to think of it primarily as consumer electronics, laptops, iPhones, all the devices that we carry around with us."}
{"id": "760128833", "date": "2019-09-12", "guest": "Kate O'Neill", "title": "'Waste' Examines The Global And Local Afterlife of Recyclables", "question_index": 21, "text": "So what. Are the toxic materials in e-waste?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, a lot of these devices contain valuable metals - gold, copper, a lot of metals that can be extracted and reused. Also, a lot of them contain the so-called rare earth metals. Coltan, for example,"}
{"id": "760128833", "date": "2019-09-12", "guest": "Kate O'Neill", "title": "'Waste' Examines The Global And Local Afterlife of Recyclables", "question_index": 22, "text": "So how are we dealing with all of our e-waste? I'm sure that a lot of it's being generated in America. China is no longer taking our recycling. I assume that includes e-waste, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Quite plentiful. And sometimes the level of toxicity depends on how the e-waste is handled. But they contain elements that are toxic in their own right like lead, but also plastics and other materials"}
{"id": "760128833", "date": "2019-09-12", "guest": "Kate O'Neill", "title": "'Waste' Examines The Global And Local Afterlife of Recyclables", "question_index": 23, "text": "So even sooner than other recycling.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. China actually stopped importing e-waste - so put a ban on e-waste importing back in 2015."}
{"id": "760128833", "date": "2019-09-12", "guest": "Kate O'Neill", "title": "'Waste' Examines The Global And Local Afterlife of Recyclables", "question_index": 24, "text": "Other countries too - did a lot of other countries who were taking it put a ban on it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. I mean, there's some..."}
{"id": "760128833", "date": "2019-09-12", "guest": "Kate O'Neill", "title": "'Waste' Examines The Global And Local Afterlife of Recyclables", "question_index": 25, "text": "And once the materials are stripped, the valuable materials are stripped from the computers and appliances and devices that are part of the e-waste - exported of that to other countries, what happens to the remains? Are they incinerated?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They've tried. The interesting thing about e-waste rather than plastics is that they can be very small. They can be - and they can be labeled very differently. So the thing with a lot of trade in e-wa"}
{"id": "760128833", "date": "2019-09-12", "guest": "Kate O'Neill", "title": "'Waste' Examines The Global And Local Afterlife of Recyclables", "question_index": 26, "text": "I wonder how they repair it 'cause I know a lot of devices seem unrepairable. They need to be replaced.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They're often burnt or buried, left just sort of in open dumps. Now, I think though that there are some misconceptions about all of these, like, horrific wastelands that exist in Ghana, Nigeria and ot"}
{"id": "760128833", "date": "2019-09-12", "guest": "Kate O'Neill", "title": "'Waste' Examines The Global And Local Afterlife of Recyclables", "question_index": 27, "text": "There's a movement to change that to be able to reuse rather than replace electronics. Tell us about that movement.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. In fact, that's becoming a very real issue because the old, clunky computers that I'm sure you're familiar with, I'm familiar with, actually were much easier to dissemble, pull out parts, plug i"}
{"id": "760128833", "date": "2019-09-12", "guest": "Kate O'Neill", "title": "'Waste' Examines The Global And Local Afterlife of Recyclables", "question_index": 28, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Kate O'Neill, author of the new book \"Waste,\" which is about recycling and the global politics of waste. She's a professor in the Department of Environmental Science, Policy and Management at UC Berkeley. We'll be right back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. The Right to Repair movement is a really fascinating movement that has sprung up around the world in different ways. And with respect to e-waste, we've actually seen a lot of activism in the Uni"}
{"id": "760128833", "date": "2019-09-12", "guest": "Kate O'Neill", "title": "'Waste' Examines The Global And Local Afterlife of Recyclables", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, we're talking about recycling, waste and the global politics of waste. My guest is Kate O'Neill, who writes about all of this in her new book \"Waste.\" She's a professor in the Department of Environmental Science, Policy and Management at the University of California, Berkeley. So in countries that have imported a lot of recycling and there were huge dumps from the waste of recycled materials - well, the contaminated recycled materials - there's a whole kind of, like, underground economy that has grown up around them of people who are very poor and who pick through it looking for things of value that can be sold. Can you tell us a little bit about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. The Right to Repair movement is a really fascinating movement that has sprung up around the world in different ways. And with respect to e-waste, we've actually seen a lot of activism in the Uni"}
{"id": "760128833", "date": "2019-09-12", "guest": "Kate O'Neill", "title": "'Waste' Examines The Global And Local Afterlife of Recyclables", "question_index": 30, "text": "You have a section in your book devoted to disaster waste. What is disaster waste?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Actually, this practice, which is called waste picking - some people call it scavenging, but waste picking is the term that people who do this work have chosen for themselves - is one of the old"}
{"id": "760128833", "date": "2019-09-12", "guest": "Kate O'Neill", "title": "'Waste' Examines The Global And Local Afterlife of Recyclables", "question_index": 31, "text": "How did waste become your subject?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The category of disaster waste is a particularly complicated and even a sensitive one. And it is a problem that has been really coming to the forefront in the last few years and will continue to expan"}
{"id": "760128833", "date": "2019-09-12", "guest": "Kate O'Neill", "title": "'Waste' Examines The Global And Local Afterlife of Recyclables", "question_index": 32, "text": "Well, Kate O'Neill, thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, waste has been something I've been kind of obsessed with since I was a kid in the playground. I used to get - at the age of 6 or 7, I would get gold stars for picking up litter. And I think for "}
{"id": "760128833", "date": "2019-09-12", "guest": "Kate O'Neill", "title": "'Waste' Examines The Global And Local Afterlife of Recyclables", "question_index": 33, "text": "Kate O'Neill is the author of the new book \"Waste.\" She's a professor of environmental science, policy and management at the University of California, Berkeley. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you very much, Terry. Thanks for having me on."}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Linda Ronstadt is the subject of a new documentary that opened today called \"Linda Ronstadt: The Sound Of My Voice.\" We're going to listen back to the interview I recorded with her in 2013, a month after she revealed that she had Parkinson's disease and could no longer sing. The disease had ended her singing career years before it was diagnosed. Ronstadt recorded her first hit in 1967, \"Different Drum,\" under the name of her band, the Stone Poneys. She went on to sell more than a hundred million records. Her best-known recordings include \"Heart Like A Wheel,\" \"Desperado,\" \"You're No Good,\" \"Faithless Love,\" \"When Will I Be Loved,\" \"Willin'\" and \"Blue Bayou.\" Her rise to stardom coincided with the height of the counterculture and the music associated with it, making her a focal point in a world far removed from her Catholic upbringing in Tucson. But she didn't remain tied to the popular music of her time. Against the recommendations of her record label, she recorded an album of standards with arranger Nelson Riddle that turned into a surprise hit and led to a couple of other albums from the American Songbook. And she recorded albums of the Mexican songs she learned from her Mexican grandfather and her father. When we spoke, she'd just written a memoir called \"Simple Dreams.\" Let's start with a song that was a No. 1 hit for her in 1975.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Linda Ronstadt, welcome to FRESH AIR. It is a great pleasure to have you on our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Feelin' better now that we're through. Feelin' better 'cause I'm over you. I learned my lesson; it left a scar. Now I see how you really are. You're no good. You're no good. You're no good. "}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 2, "text": "Well, I want to talk with you about your childhood and your family tree. Reading your memoir, I was just astonished", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much."}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 3, "text": "by the richness of your family tree. So let's start with your grandfather who was born in Mexico and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much."}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 4, "text": "...Had a hardware store in Arizona.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 5, "text": "And had a lot of business that came across the border from Mexico. Tell us about his music background.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In Tucson. Yeah."}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 6, "text": "Did he do a lot of Mexican songs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know? So he went through some tough times. He went through the Depression. But he was an apprentice to a blacksmith when he was a teenager. And so he had the reputation in southern Arizona for mak"}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 7, "text": "So while we're talking about some of the music he introduced you to and the music he played, let me play a track from the first of, I think, three albums that you did of Mexican and Spanish songs. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "they'd show up for that. I mean, in those days, you had to make your own music. You couldn't get it off the radio. You couldn't get it from YouTube. You couldn't. download it. You had to make it yours"}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Mexican songs. And the title of the album \"Canciones De Mi Padre\" is the same title that your aunt gave a collection of songs and stories that she published.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They're Mexican songs. Yeah."}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 9, "text": "And did he come here because of her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, my aunt was a singer and a dancer. And she was a music scholar, you know, in the teens and '20s of the 20th century. And she traveled all over Mexico and also into Spain. And she collected all th"}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Right. Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. I mean, I'm sure she encouraged him to. But I mean, he, you know, people with that kind of talent, they make it on their own."}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 11, "text": "So the song that I want...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She just didn't get in the way, you know."}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Because they were your backup band before they became famous.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Kind of like being the Eagles, you know. I didn't get in their way. They..."}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 13, "text": "So the song I want to play from your first album of Mexican songs is - and I'm going to say this wrong - \"Rogaciano El Huapanguero\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were my backup band, and I just got out of the way."}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Huapanguero. Yeah."}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is a beautiful song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Rogaciano El Huapanguero.\""}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 16, "text": "It's just - there's so much emotion in the song. Just say a few words about it before we hear it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Rogaciano\" is a certain kind of song. It's a style of singing."}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 17, "text": "OK, so this is Linda Ronstadt from her first album of Mexican songs - \"Canciones De Mi Padre\" - from 1987.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this music is typical of the mountain regions. And I guess in mountain regions people develop a kind of a yodeling style because they can throw their voice across - you know, they don't have a t"}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 18, "text": "That's my guest Linda Ronstadt recorded in 1987. We were talking about how your grandfather introduced you to these kinds of songs and sang these kinds of songs. Your father sang, too. I was surprised to read that Paul Whiteman invited your father to be the boy singer in his band. And, I mean, that's where Bing Crosby got his start.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing in Spanish)."}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 19, "text": "And on...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That was a huge deal because in those days he was the most well-known bandleader in the country. So that was quite an honor. My father had a beautiful, beautiful baritone voice. He sounded like "}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 20, "text": "On your mother's side of the family, her father was Lloyd Copeman, who was an inventor. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was beautiful memory."}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Whoa", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was a - yeah. He was a famous inventor. He invented, well, the electric toaster, the electric stove, all the timing devices. He invented the thermostat for Westinghouse, basically."}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was a - yeah. He was a famous inventor. He invented, well, the electric toaster, the electric stove, all the timing devices. He invented the thermostat for Westinghouse, basically."}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 23, "text": "So that leads me to wonder. I mean, did you grow up wealthy? Did your mother inherit a lot of money? That's a lot of inventions.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he invented the pneumatic grease gun. And he invented a dripless paint thing that you put on your paint can so it doesn't drip down the side. It's still in use today. He invented a tamper-proof en"}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. My grandmother had Parkinson's disease, and it took all his money. He had - he was wealthy from time to time..."}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Which is what you have now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know, at certain times. But he spent all his money trying to find a cure for Parkinson's disease."}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 26, "text": "Wait. You mean - so he tried to invent a cure as an inventor - to come up with a cure for...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's what I have now, yeah. It's a gene, I guess. I mean, I think that's - a gene is one of the things that you - they don't know what causes it. But I think that genetic is one of the ways you can ge"}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 27, "text": "So you form a band with friends, the Stone Poneys, which eventually has the hit \"Different Drum\" in 1967. But that was their second album. The first album, it was a harmony group. And you weren't, like, the lead singer, Linda Ronstadt. It was a band. You sang harmonies. I hadn't heard that early work until I was preparing for this interview. And I was really interested in hearing how the early Stone Poneys sound. So I want to play the first track from that first album.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he tried to find - you know, he searched everywhere. And people would say, well, you know, we can cure it. Give us this much money. And he just went through his money trying to find a way to fix"}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 28, "text": "This is \"Sweet Summer Blue And Gold.\" And just want to say a few words about this and about what the band was about in those early days?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God."}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 29, "text": "All right. So this is Linda Ronstadt with the Stone Poneys, the first album that they released.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know and see if it stuck."}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 30, "text": "So that was the Stone Poneys with my guest, Linda Ronstadt. And that was before \"Different Drum.\" This was from their first album. So that soul-folk influence, was that the direction you were heading in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Look out your window. The rain is turning into snow so the time has come, you know. You must decide to stay or go. Oh, how you love me - sweet summer, blue and gold. Will you stay with me lo"}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 31, "text": "You got a manager. And your manager thought you should really be, like, the soloist. He wasn't that hot on the band. But he liked you and thought he could really promote you. And then you're ready to record \"Different Drum.\" And you show up to the studio and, like, your band's not there. It's these different musicians. Tell the story of what happened.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "On the radio in those days, the radio was so wide open. You could hear a jazz song, the Singing Nun, a country song and then, you know, Peter, Paul and Mary, you know, doing sort of what was considere"}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 32, "text": "Don Randi was playing harpsichord.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So we recorded it with a guitar and a mandolin. And of course, you know, the record company didn't like it. And they said, well, we want to do it again, but we're going to get a different arrangemen"}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 33, "text": "So this is my guest, Linda Ronstadt, \"Different Drum,\" 1967.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Don Randi was playing harpsichord, and he played piano. So I was just shocked. And they played the arrangement. I didn't know how to fit the phrasing in. I didn't - it suddenly wasn't the way I "}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 34, "text": "That's Linda Ronstadt recorded in 1967, big hit for her, different from her first big hit. Did you believe in the lyric about not wanting to be tied down or monogamist? Did - like, did that describe you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You and I travel to the beat of a different drum, oh. Can't you tell by the way I run every time you make eyes at me? Whoa. You cry and moan and say it could work out. But, honey child, I've"}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 35, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 36, "text": "Never been married, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it did. Yes, it does."}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 37, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No knack for it."}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 38, "text": "We're listening to my interview with Linda Ronstadt recorded in 2013. A new documentary called \"Linda Ronstadt: The Sound Of My Voice\" opened today in theaters. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But I'm not a good compromiser. I think I don't have a knack for the kind of compromise. I admire people's marriages, and I think it's a wonderful thing to have. But I don't think it's the only way "}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 39, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 2013 interview with Linda Ronstadt. A new documentary about her opened today. We spoke after the publication of her memoir. You write in the book about how to - how you had to figure out your image. And you write, (reading) female performers in the folk pop genre were generally confused about how to represent themselves. Did we want to be nurturing, stay-at-home earth mothers who cooked and nursed babies, or did we want to be funky mamas in the Troubadour bar, our boot heels to be wandering an independent course like our male counterparts? So where did you see yourself fitting in between, like, the funky mama and the earth mama?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But I'm not a good compromiser. I think I don't have a knack for the kind of compromise. I admire people's marriages, and I think it's a wonderful thing to have. But I don't think it's the only way "}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 40, "text": "I remember the rumor about Janis Joplin was - and I don't know if you heard this because you were in the music industry, so - and you actually knew her - but at a distance...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I was raised to - you know, to wear hat and gloves and polish the silver. And that just wasn't the way I was quite raised, so I was a little bit confused by it."}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 41, "text": "Right. But at a distance, when, like, all of her fans were preparing for, like, the concert, you know, in the college auditorium, like, the rumor that went around was, like, Janis Joplin got so deep into the sexuality of her songs that she actually reached orgasm on stage", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not well, but I knew her a little bit."}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 42, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not well, but I knew her a little bit."}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 43, "text": "I doubt that was true. But...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God. Well, I never heard that."}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 44, "text": "I assumed that. But did you ever feel like you had to compete with that kind of image and that kind of, like, level of sexuality that people projected onto her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've never personally had that experience myself, but..."}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 45, "text": "You have a few stories in your new memoir about being propositioned by men who assumed, hey, it's a hippie chick singer - free love. For example, the time when a producer of a TV show that you were doing - you were a guest on the show - he came into your room on the premise that you had to talk about business. And he immediately, like, stripped off all his clothes", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I think competition is for horse races, and I never thought it belonged in art. And I never felt that competitive with other girl singers, really. I admired them. If I really admired them, I'd try"}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 46, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I think competition is for horse races, and I never thought it belonged in art. And I never felt that competitive with other girl singers, really. I admired them. If I really admired them, I'd try"}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 47, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was so shocked because I'm really kind of modest. You know, I had a Catholic school upbringing. And we just didn't see a lot of naked bodies. And this guy, I'm telling you, was not the Adonis of sho"}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 48, "text": "We're listening back to my 2013 interview with Linda Ronstadt. A new documentary about her called \"Linda Ronstadt: The Sound Of My Voice\" opened today. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. And John Powers will review the new film \"Hustlers.\" I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was something really kind of exhibitionistic and self-hating about what he was doing. I felt sorry for him. I mean, it was - clearly he was so troubled. But, you know, he was - had the power, an"}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 49, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my 2013 interview with Linda Ronstadt. A new documentary about her opened in theaters today. Ronstadt had her first hit in 1967 with the song \"Different Drum.\" Some of her other best known recordings include \"Heart Like A Wheel,\" \"Desperado,\" \"You're No Good,\" \"When Will I Be Loved,\" \"Willin'\" and \"Blue Bayou.\" She's also recorded albums of American popular song and Mexican songs. I spoke with her after the publication of her memoir, which was a month after she revealed she had Parkinson's disease. It had been diagnosed less than a year earlier, but the symptoms ended her singing career several years before that. She said that early in her career, she had difficulty figuring out her public image. She didn't quite fit into the popular images of the Earth mother or the funky mama.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was something really kind of exhibitionistic and self-hating about what he was doing. I felt sorry for him. I mean, it was - clearly he was so troubled. But, you know, he was - had the power, an"}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 50, "text": "1971, you perform at Disneyland. And the contract stipulated that you had to wear a bra. And your skirt had to be a certain number of inches from the ground when you were kneeling, which led me to wonder...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was something really kind of exhibitionistic and self-hating about what he was doing. I felt sorry for him. I mean, it was - clearly he was so troubled. But, you know, he was - had the power, an"}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 51, "text": "Yeah. Had they seen - so your skirt had to be long enough. Had they seen your act and known that, well, sometimes you don't wear a bra and that you kneel in your show?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah - not very many inches."}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 52, "text": "For anybody?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. They just - that was just the rules, that if you wanted to work at Disneyland, you..."}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 53, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I was laughing. I was going to put the bra on my head, you know, and say, it didn't say in the contract..."}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 54, "text": "In your memoir, you write about how when you found the song \"Heart Like A Wheel,\" the Anna McGarrigle song, which she sang with her sister, Kate, that that song rearranged your entire musical landscape. First, let's start with, why did your musical landscape need rearranging?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I really needed to get paid. They paid really well at Disneyland. That's why we did those silly gigs. But, you know, they always had these silly laws. I think they're very - they were a very uptig"}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 55, "text": "Well, it ended up being the title track of a 1974 album. Let's hear it. This is my guest, Linda Ronstadt, singing \"Heart Like A Wheel.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'd come from this kind of sensibility. My grandfather loved opera. He loved \"La Traviata.\" That was his favorite opera. It's my favorite opera. And he had this kind of, you know, arty, refined "}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 56, "text": "That's my guest, Linda Ronstadt, singing \"Heart Like A Wheel,\" the title track of her 1974 album that also included \"When Will I Be Loved,\" \"Willin',\" \"Faithless Love.\" I think it was after \"Heart Like A Wheel,\" you go to your record company, Capitol Records. And you basically begged them to let you go", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Some say the heart is just like a wheel. When you bend it, you can't mend it. But my love for you is like a sinking ship. And my heart is on that ship out in mid-ocean. When harm is done, no"}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 57, "text": "because you couldn't record what you wanted to record with them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Some say the heart is just like a wheel. When you bend it, you can't mend it. But my love for you is like a sinking ship. And my heart is on that ship out in mid-ocean. When harm is done, no"}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 58, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded with Linda Ronstadt in 2013. A new documentary called \"Linda Ronstadt: The Sound of My Voice\" opened today. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they weren't - I just didn't feel like they really got who I was. And, I mean, to their credit, how could they know? - because I was still shaping who I was. I was morphing into something. It to"}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 59, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 2013 interview with Linda Ronstadt. A new documentary about her opened today. We spoke after the publication of her memoir.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they weren't - I just didn't feel like they really got who I was. And, I mean, to their credit, how could they know? - because I was still shaping who I was. I was morphing into something. It to"}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 60, "text": "One of the big decisions you made in your career is that you wanted to sing standards. You wanted to sing songs like Sinatra and Rosemary Clooney had recorded.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they weren't - I just didn't feel like they really got who I was. And, I mean, to their credit, how could they know? - because I was still shaping who I was. I was morphing into something. It to"}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 61, "text": "And you wanted to do it with Nelson Riddle,", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 62, "text": "who had...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 63, "text": "...Done arrangements for both of them. And you were lucky enough to actually record three albums with him. So let's go back for a moment. How did you first know the American Songbook?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 64, "text": "The title of the album is \"What's New?\" That's a song that so many people have sung. What spoke to you about that song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I heard it on the - first on the Victrola and then on the big HiFi monaural record player that my father brought home in the '50s. He brought it home with a bunch of records. He brought Lewis Armstron"}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 65, "text": "OK. This is Linda Ronstadt from her first album of standards. The album is \"What's New?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'd had experiences like that, where you run into an old boyfriend that maybe you're still carrying a little torch for. And, you know, you see him, and it's just - kind of brings back all those "}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 66, "text": "That's Linda Ronstadt from her first album of standards, which was called \"What's New?\" and the first of three albums in which she collaborated with the arranger Nelson Riddle. Do you feel like you learned things about music or about how singing fits in with an arrangement by working with Nelson Riddle?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) What's new? How is the world treating you? You haven't changed a bit. Handsome as ever, I must admit. What's new? How did that romance come through? We haven't met since then. Gee, but it's "}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 67, "text": "He - Nelson Riddle died while doing the arrangements for your third album together. That must have been devastating.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I learned a tremendous amount. I mean, I told Nelson in the beginning - I had the gut, the chutzpah, to tell him I needed a really custom fit and that I like to be involved in the way the arrang"}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 68, "text": "You've probably known a lot of people who died young. And I'm thinking just to name a few - Gram Parsons, Janis Joplin, Jim Morrison.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was devastating because there was only one Nelson Riddle. They don't make any more like him. And, you know, it was the end of an era in a certain way. And we still had one song - one track to recor"}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 69, "text": "From the production that you were in.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, we had the great culling, you know, of people that took drugs, and it was just a disaster and a tragedy. It's just so sad that those people didn't get to live out full lives. And then ther"}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 70, "text": "Well, you're saying that was because of AIDS?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, the music director and a lot of the stars - and they're gone. It's a shame. They had amazing careers, and they should - they had many more years in them. They could have been around. S"}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 71, "text": "Do you still feel like a bit of a survivor because you made it through this far?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, because of AIDS. And then now is, you know, old age. It's where, you know, people are dropping around my generation. It's like the senior class in high school. Now we're the seniors, and we're l"}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 72, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 73, "text": "You can say that", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I feel like..."}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 74, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I feel like..."}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 75, "text": "I want to close with a song from your final album, \"Hummin' To Myself,\" from 2004. And this is the song \"Tell Him I Said Hello.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Whatever I've got - I just feel whatever I've got now is gravy. I feel like I was lucky. I got to sing about a lot of my dreams. And I got to, you know, sing with all these wonderful people like Em"}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 76, "text": "Oh, good. So did you know this would be your final album when you recorded it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I'm glad you picked that. It's my favorite one."}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 77, "text": "When you say you had to, like, refashion your voice, like, what did you have to do differently in these early stages of Parkinson's when you were still singing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It wasn't my final album. I made an album after that, but I'm really proud of called the - it was just called \"Adieu False Heart\" that I made with an Ann Savoy down in the Cajun country. And it's - I "}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 78, "text": "Well, Linda Ronstadt, it's just been such a pleasure to talk with you. And I wish you the best.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was singing on the sort of the flat, lower part of my voice. I didn't have all the color and the breath and the sort of airy halo that comes. There's a lot of different textures that you can d"}
{"id": "760502128", "date": "2019-09-13", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt On Making Music: 'I Knew How To Sing My Whole Life'", "question_index": 79, "text": "My interview with Linda Ronstadt was recorded in 2013, a month after she revealed she had Parkinson's disease. A new documentary about her opened today called \"Linda Ronstadt: The Sound Of My Voice.\" In December, she'll be one of the Kennedy Center honorees. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) When you see him, tell him things are slow. There's a reason, and he's sure to know. But on second thought, forget it. Just tell him I said hello. If he asks you when I come and go, say I st"}
{"id": "761551835", "date": "2019-09-17", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "'Second Founding' Examines How Reconstruction Remade The Constitution", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Some of today's most divisive issues related to racial equality, voting rights and voter suppression, women's rights, who gets to be a citizen, mass incarceration and what is the meaning of equal justice are issues you can't fully understand without understanding the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments. These are the amendments that were added to the Constitution after the Civil War in the era known as Reconstruction. The 13th ended slavery. The 14th made anyone born in the U.S. a citizen and said that the state can't deprive any person of life, liberty or property without due process of law or deny anyone equal protection under the law. The 15th gave the vote to black men but not any women. How those amendments became part of the Constitution and how they've been interpreted over the years is the subject of a new book by my guest, Pulitzer Prize-winning historian Eric Foner. It's called \"The Second Founding: How The Civil War And Reconstruction Remade The Constitution.\" Foner is the author of several books about the Civil War and Reconstruction and is the DeWitt Clinton Professor Emeritus of History at Columbia University. Eric Foner, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Give us a sense of the rights that Americans won in the 13th, 14th or 15th Amendments, just to give us a sense of the importance of those amendments.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "761551835", "date": "2019-09-17", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "'Second Founding' Examines How Reconstruction Remade The Constitution", "question_index": 1, "text": "I don't think most people think of the rights that you just enumerated as having come out of the period of Reconstruction, the period after the Civil War. So in talking about the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendment, put that in the context of the era of Reconstruction. What's your interpretation of what Reconstruction means in American history?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The 13th Amendment irrevocably abolished slavery in the United States everywhere. Unlike the Emancipation Proclamation, which had numerous exemptions, the 13th Amendment applies to everybody in the Un"}
{"id": "761551835", "date": "2019-09-17", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "'Second Founding' Examines How Reconstruction Remade The Constitution", "question_index": 2, "text": "And after the advances toward equality that the 13th to 15th Amendments provided, there was a backlash that came mostly from white Southerners trying to limit the rights that those amendments guaranteed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, Reconstruction was many things - reuniting the nation after the Civil War. But from this point of view, I think the key way to think about it is the effort of the country to come to te"}
{"id": "761551835", "date": "2019-09-17", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "'Second Founding' Examines How Reconstruction Remade The Constitution", "question_index": 3, "text": "Let's look at the 13th Amendment, which abolished slavery. It reads, (reading) neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crimes whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction. So that amendment freed the slaves. Why was that amendment needed after the Emancipation Proclamation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sadly, there was a powerful backlash. Even during Reconstruction, of course, we had the Ku Klux Klan and other such groups using violence to try to restore white supremacy in the South. And you know, "}
{"id": "761551835", "date": "2019-09-17", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "'Second Founding' Examines How Reconstruction Remade The Constitution", "question_index": 4, "text": "Course, the 13th Amendment did - didn't do anything to help freed slaves who had nothing. They had no possessions, no means of income, often no education. They were faced with hostility by whites. So, I mean...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That - I mean, most people probably think that Lincoln freed the slaves in the Emancipation Proclamation. And of course, he did declare the freedom of over 3 million slaves. This was a remarkabl"}
{"id": "761551835", "date": "2019-09-17", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "'Second Founding' Examines How Reconstruction Remade The Constitution", "question_index": 5, "text": "...It - yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "761551835", "date": "2019-09-17", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "'Second Founding' Examines How Reconstruction Remade The Constitution", "question_index": 6, "text": "Paradoxically, the 13th Amendment, which ends slavery, is also understood today to be at the root of mass incarceration. Would you explain the connection?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes, you're quite right about that except, you know, there was a second clause in the 13th Amendment which says, Congress shall have the power to enforce this amendment with appropriate legislati"}
{"id": "761551835", "date": "2019-09-17", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "'Second Founding' Examines How Reconstruction Remade The Constitution", "question_index": 7, "text": "And since there were so many laws enacted, particularly in the South, intended to limit the rights of black people, it was easy to violate those laws and be thrown into jail and then be forced into labor.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Yes. Many people have seen the well-known Hollywood documentary \"13th,\" which draws a straight line from the 13th Amendment to mass incarceration today. That clause - you read it a few minutes "}
{"id": "761551835", "date": "2019-09-17", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "'Second Founding' Examines How Reconstruction Remade The Constitution", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is historian Eric Foner. And his new book is called \"The Second Founding: How The Civil War And Reconstruction Remade The Constitution.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. I mean, the - those laws that were passed after Reconstruction to create this system were not racial laws. They didn't say anything - if they had said, hey, black people can be put in jail for "}
{"id": "761551835", "date": "2019-09-17", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "'Second Founding' Examines How Reconstruction Remade The Constitution", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Pulitzer Prize-winning historian Eric Foner. His latest book is called \"The Second Founding: How The Civil War And Reconstruction Remade The Constitution.\" Moving along with the three constitutional amendments that came out of Reconstruction, let's get to the 14th, which is very relevant today. It established who could be a citizen. And it brought the idea of birthright citizenship into effect. And since citizenship and immigration and who gets to be a citizen is so controversial today, let's talk about this. So how did the 14th bring the idea of birthright citizenship into effect?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. I mean, the - those laws that were passed after Reconstruction to create this system were not racial laws. They didn't say anything - if they had said, hey, black people can be put in jail for "}
{"id": "761551835", "date": "2019-09-17", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "'Second Founding' Examines How Reconstruction Remade The Constitution", "question_index": 10, "text": "As you said, President Trump has said he would issue an executive order to overturn the birthright citizenship clause of the 14th Amendment. Can you imagine if presidents had the power to issue executive orders overturning parts of the Constitution?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the Civil Rights Act of 1866 passed a few months before the 14th Amendment. It already established birthright citizenship. But of course, a law can be repealed by the next Congress. So the Repub"}
{"id": "761551835", "date": "2019-09-17", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "'Second Founding' Examines How Reconstruction Remade The Constitution", "question_index": 11, "text": "I'm going to stop you right there. You think the Supreme Court might actually uphold the president if he tried to revoke part of the Constitution?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That would be kind of shocking. Which clause would be next, you know? I mean, there's plenty of parts of the Constitution that President Trump doesn't seem to agree with. And who knows? You know"}
{"id": "761551835", "date": "2019-09-17", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "'Second Founding' Examines How Reconstruction Remade The Constitution", "question_index": 12, "text": "So let's get back to the 14th Amendment. By establishing birthright citizenship, it remade the political map. Can you explain how?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". With this current Supreme Court, I'm not willing to make predictions about what they will and won't do. I mean, not that long ago, the Supreme Court overturned, basically, the Voting Rights Act of 1"}
{"id": "761551835", "date": "2019-09-17", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "'Second Founding' Examines How Reconstruction Remade The Constitution", "question_index": 13, "text": "My guest is historian Eric Foner. His new book is called \"The Second Founding: How The Civil War And Reconstruction Remade The Constitution.\" We'll talk more after a break, and we'll remember journalist Cokie Roberts, who I'm so sad to say died today of complications related to breast cancer. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it remade the entire, you know, legal political map by incorporating African Americans. Basically, those are the ones whose citizenship is now established, which previously had been denied. But "}
{"id": "761551835", "date": "2019-09-17", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "'Second Founding' Examines How Reconstruction Remade The Constitution", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Pulitzer Prize-winning historian Eric Foner, author of the new book \"The Second Founding: How The Civil War And Reconstruction Remade The Constitution.\" It focuses on the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments, which were added to the Constitution after the Civil War, and how they relate to some of today's most divisive issues. When we left off, we were talking about the 14th Amendment, which made anyone born in the U.S. a citizen and said that the state can't deprive any person of life, liberty or property without due process of law or deny anyone equal protection under the law. So did the 14th Amendment, establishing who could be a citizen and establishing that black people were citizens if they were born in the U.S., did that imply that they had the right to vote?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it remade the entire, you know, legal political map by incorporating African Americans. Basically, those are the ones whose citizenship is now established, which previously had been denied. But "}
{"id": "761551835", "date": "2019-09-17", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "'Second Founding' Examines How Reconstruction Remade The Constitution", "question_index": 15, "text": "Which leads us to the 15th Amendment, which gives black men the right to vote.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, black people thought that it did. But in fact, the second clause of the 14th Amendment, which is very convoluted and hard to understand - but in a nutshell, it says, no, the states still control"}
{"id": "761551835", "date": "2019-09-17", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "'Second Founding' Examines How Reconstruction Remade The Constitution", "question_index": 16, "text": "But it's a very kind of narrow - it's wonderful for black men, but talk about who's left out of the 15th Amendment.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "761551835", "date": "2019-09-17", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "'Second Founding' Examines How Reconstruction Remade The Constitution", "question_index": 17, "text": "So in the same period when the 13th through 15th Amendment is giving people new rights - it's giving black men the right to vote; it's making people who are born in the U.S. citizens; it ends slavery. So at the same time, we get the Ku Klux Klan. What was the government's reaction to the Klan? Did the government try to protect the rights of the people who the Klan was trying to, you know, violently push back?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The 15th Amendment, which did tremendously expand political democracy in this country by denying states the right to bar people from voting because of race, still is limited in many ways. It's a negat"}
{"id": "761551835", "date": "2019-09-17", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "'Second Founding' Examines How Reconstruction Remade The Constitution", "question_index": 18, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is historian Eric Foner. His new book is called \"The Second Founding: How The Civil War And Reconstruction Remade The Constitution.\" We're going to take a short break here. Then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. State governments found it very difficult. These new interracial state governments in the South were weak. They found it difficult to suppress violence. The Klan and other groups - we shouldn't t"}
{"id": "761551835", "date": "2019-09-17", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "'Second Founding' Examines How Reconstruction Remade The Constitution", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is Pulitzer Prize-winning historian Eric Foner, author of the new book \"The Second Founding: How The Civil War And Reconstruction Remade The Constitution.\" One of the biggest setbacks to the Reconstruction Amendments to the Constitution was Plessy v. Ferguson. What year was that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. State governments found it very difficult. These new interracial state governments in the South were weak. They found it difficult to suppress violence. The Klan and other groups - we shouldn't t"}
{"id": "761551835", "date": "2019-09-17", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "'Second Founding' Examines How Reconstruction Remade The Constitution", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yeah, and I want you to - it's a very famous case. Nevertheless, I want you to describe the case and the way it limited the protections of the 14th Amendment.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "1896."}
{"id": "761551835", "date": "2019-09-17", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "'Second Founding' Examines How Reconstruction Remade The Constitution", "question_index": 21, "text": "So Plessy was overturned later by Brown v. Board of Education, which said separate but equal isn't equal.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Plessy v. Ferguson is probably the best-known of all the Supreme Court cases of the late 19th century dealing with these issues of the constitutional amendments, mostly because it was overturned by th"}
{"id": "761551835", "date": "2019-09-17", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "'Second Founding' Examines How Reconstruction Remade The Constitution", "question_index": 22, "text": "And this is the decision...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "761551835", "date": "2019-09-17", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "'Second Founding' Examines How Reconstruction Remade The Constitution", "question_index": 23, "text": "Right. And this is the decision that mandated that schools be desegregated.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Separate is by definition unequal."}
{"id": "761551835", "date": "2019-09-17", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "'Second Founding' Examines How Reconstruction Remade The Constitution", "question_index": 24, "text": "And that opens the door to a lot of people using the Equal Protection Clause to fight for their rights, especially, you know, like, women's rights and African American rights. But where do you see us headed now in terms of how the Equal Protection Clause is being used and what its limitations are?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "761551835", "date": "2019-09-17", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "'Second Founding' Examines How Reconstruction Remade The Constitution", "question_index": 25, "text": "Eric Foner, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's ironic, I think, that the Equal Protection Clause, the core of the 14th Amendment has been used to greatly expand the rights of all sorts of people. Remember, it's not - there's no mention "}
{"id": "761551835", "date": "2019-09-17", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "'Second Founding' Examines How Reconstruction Remade The Constitution", "question_index": 26, "text": "Eric Foner is the author of the new book \"The Second Founding: How The Civil War And Reconstruction Remade The Constitution.\" He's the DeWitt Clinton Professor Emeritus of History at Columbia University. After we take a short break, we'll remember journalist Cokie Roberts, who died today. She has a special place in the history of NPR and in the history of women journalists. We'll listen back to an excerpt of my interview with her. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A pleasure to talk to you always."}
{"id": "761571882", "date": "2019-09-17", "guest": "Cokie Roberts", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Cokie Roberts, A Founding Mother Of NPR", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We've got some very sad news today. Cokie Roberts, one of the founding mothers of NPR, has died from complications of breast cancer. She was 75. In the early days of NPR, when there were few women reporters on radio or TV and women's ability to sound authoritative was being challenged, Cokie Roberts was NPR's congressional correspondent. Along with Susan Stamberg, Nina Totenberg and Linda Wertheimer, they proved that women could do an outstanding job covering the news. In 1988, Cokie crossed over to TV, joining ABC News while continuing to do news analysis for NPR. She became a political correspondent for ABC's \"World News Tonight\" and a panelist, then co-anchor, of ABC's Sunday morning show \"This Week.\" She grew up in a political family. Her father Hale Boggs served in Congress for 32 years and became House majority leader. Her mother took over his seat after his 1972 death in a plane crash. Cokie's mother Lindy Boggs was elected to fill his seat. In 1997, President Clinton appointed Lindy Boggs ambassador to the Holy See. We're going to hear an excerpt of the interview I recorded with Cokie Roberts in 1993 in front of an audience at WHYY, where FRESH AIR is produced. We start this excerpt by talking about the period when she covered Congress.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "761571882", "date": "2019-09-17", "guest": "Cokie Roberts", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Cokie Roberts, A Founding Mother Of NPR", "question_index": 1, "text": "You were one of the very few women covering Congress, and even before you were covering Congress, your mother was one of the few women in Congress. I'd like you to think back a few years to when you started covering Congress, to when it was even more of a men's club than it is now. What were some of the obstacles you were up against as a woman covering Congress?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "761571882", "date": "2019-09-17", "guest": "Cokie Roberts", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Cokie Roberts, A Founding Mother Of NPR", "question_index": 2, "text": "Were you turned down for a lot of jobs that you thought you should have gotten...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, not any. That is something that's interesting about politicians. They are the most modern of men when they need to be. If you are representing a news organization - as in my case, National P"}
{"id": "761571882", "date": "2019-09-17", "guest": "Cokie Roberts", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Cokie Roberts, A Founding Mother Of NPR", "question_index": 3, "text": "...Except for the fact that you were a woman?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "761571882", "date": "2019-09-17", "guest": "Cokie Roberts", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Cokie Roberts, A Founding Mother Of NPR", "question_index": 4, "text": "Were you told point-blank that it was because you're a woman?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "761571882", "date": "2019-09-17", "guest": "Cokie Roberts", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Cokie Roberts, A Founding Mother Of NPR", "question_index": 5, "text": "Now, I know you started in television, but you became best-known for radio, and now you're in both radio and TV. When you started at ABC, was there somebody who was paid to say, well, but now that you're doing TV, of course you're going to have to do your hair differently and do your makeup and dress differently, too, and all of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Point-blank - we don't hire women to do that. Their voices lack authority. Or we don't hire women writers because men have to work for the writers, and obviously, men can't work for women. I mean, eve"}
{"id": "761571882", "date": "2019-09-17", "guest": "Cokie Roberts", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Cokie Roberts, A Founding Mother Of NPR", "question_index": 6, "text": "But - and look. I always am uncomfortable with these statement - these questions because it makes me sound like I'm some sort of prim, you know, opponent of makeup. Quite the contrary - I've been trying to get the makeup man to move in with me for years. And I mean, I am delighted to look good, you know? Nothing makes me happier than looking like a better version of myself. But that's who I have to look like is myself, and so there's been a continuing fight over these long skirts that I wear, and I just cannot imagine sitting with - trying to make an argument and make a forceful point against Sam tugging on my skirt, you know? It's one thing too many to think about.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't know. I mean, I assume they're all paid, and a lot of them said it, but they..."}
{"id": "761571882", "date": "2019-09-17", "guest": "Cokie Roberts", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Cokie Roberts, A Founding Mother Of NPR", "question_index": 7, "text": "Well...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But..."}
{"id": "761571882", "date": "2019-09-17", "guest": "Cokie Roberts", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Cokie Roberts, A Founding Mother Of NPR", "question_index": 8, "text": "Now, you grew up in a political family. I mean, your father was a lifelong politician. Your mother entered into politics...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And as, you know, I have said before - and I want to say it again - I cannot be a glamorous 22-year-old. I am the mother of a glamorous 22-year-old, and there is reason to behave like my age."}
{"id": "761571882", "date": "2019-09-17", "guest": "Cokie Roberts", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Cokie Roberts, A Founding Mother Of NPR", "question_index": 9, "text": "But she actually got a seat in Congress after your father passed. I wonder what your exposure to journalists was when you were growing up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, my mother was a lifelong politician."}
{"id": "761571882", "date": "2019-09-17", "guest": "Cokie Roberts", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Cokie Roberts, A Founding Mother Of NPR", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "761571882", "date": "2019-09-17", "guest": "Cokie Roberts", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Cokie Roberts, A Founding Mother Of NPR", "question_index": 11, "text": "Oh, no.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that afternoon's paper came out with the headline \"Source Close To Hale Boggs Concedes Election.\" So..."}
{"id": "761571882", "date": "2019-09-17", "guest": "Cokie Roberts", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Cokie Roberts, A Founding Mother Of NPR", "question_index": 12, "text": "Do you think that you're more thoughtful of the privacy of politicians...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. And that is a - and that kind of thing happens much more often than any of us would like to believe."}
{"id": "761571882", "date": "2019-09-17", "guest": "Cokie Roberts", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Cokie Roberts, A Founding Mother Of NPR", "question_index": 13, "text": "...Because of the situation you grew up in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes, I do."}
{"id": "761571882", "date": "2019-09-17", "guest": "Cokie Roberts", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Cokie Roberts, A Founding Mother Of NPR", "question_index": 14, "text": "Your father disappeared in a plane crash on a campaign tour through Alaska in 1972. I know he was never found. Was the plane...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do think I'm - that I am more concerned about their privacy, but I also just see them much more as human beings, you know, as people with all the flaws and foibles and families of a human being. And"}
{"id": "761571882", "date": "2019-09-17", "guest": "Cokie Roberts", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Cokie Roberts, A Founding Mother Of NPR", "question_index": 15, "text": "...Ever found?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "761571882", "date": "2019-09-17", "guest": "Cokie Roberts", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Cokie Roberts, A Founding Mother Of NPR", "question_index": 16, "text": "My interview with Cokie Roberts was recorded in front of an audience in 1993 at WHYY, where we produce FRESH AIR. She died today of complications related to breast cancer. She was 75. Our condolences to her family, friends and colleagues. And I want to express my gratitude for how she helped pave the way for other women journalists on radio and TV. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, my guest will be Andrea Mitchell, who also helped pave the way for women journalists. She is NBC's chief foreign affairs correspondent and anchor of her own MSNBC show. Next week, she'll receive the lifetime achievement award at the News & Documentary Emmy Awards ceremony. I hope you'll join us. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's really remarkable. It was at the end of a Congressional session, and the people who were there - I learn different things about it all the time still from people. He was exhausted. You know, at t"}
{"id": "761878395", "date": "2019-09-18", "guest": "Andrea Mitchell", "title": "Journalist Andrea Mitchell: Asking Tough Questions Is 'Very Empowering'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Andrea Mitchell, will receive an Emmy for lifetime achievement next Tuesday at the News and Documentary Emmy ceremony. She is NBC's chief foreign affairs correspondent and anchor of MSNBC's \"Andrea Mitchell Reports.\" Over the years, she's covered Congress, the White House, presidential campaigns, the State Department. She's reported from around the world, including war zones. She's asked tough questions to presidents and dictators. And various powerful people have tried to get her fired. Mitchell is also a trailblazer for women journalists. She started her career in 1967 as a, quote, \"copy boy\" at KYW News Radio in Philadelphia. She became famous in the city for her tough coverage of a tough and divisive mayor, Frank Rizzo. Her reputation for asking hard questions, and for shouting them, if necessary, has continued through her career. I recorded this interview with her yesterday, shortly after the news broke that journalist Cokie Roberts had died. We talked about Cokie at the start of our interview. Andrea Mitchell, welcome to FRESH AIR. And congratulations on your Emmy. You have certainly earned it.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "761878395", "date": "2019-09-18", "guest": "Andrea Mitchell", "title": "Journalist Andrea Mitchell: Asking Tough Questions Is 'Very Empowering'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Not necessarily. It takes more than living long enough", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's such an honor and a little bit overwhelming - something I did not expect. But I guess if you live long enough, you get awards like these."}
{"id": "761878395", "date": "2019-09-18", "guest": "Andrea Mitchell", "title": "Journalist Andrea Mitchell: Asking Tough Questions Is 'Very Empowering'", "question_index": 2, "text": ". So before we look back on all the years you've done so far in your career, I want to talk a little bit with you about another pioneering woman journalist, and that's Cokie Roberts, who worked with NPR for many years and at ABC News. And you came up at similar times. You were both women journalists in broadcasting at times when there were very few women in broadcasting in the journalism end of things. Were you close? Did you know her well?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's such an honor and a little bit overwhelming - something I did not expect. But I guess if you live long enough, you get awards like these."}
{"id": "761878395", "date": "2019-09-18", "guest": "Andrea Mitchell", "title": "Journalist Andrea Mitchell: Asking Tough Questions Is 'Very Empowering'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Did you and Cokie Roberts talk much about being women in journalism? Did you do things to support each other even when you were working for competing networks?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We were close. We were friends. She was a mentor. And she's really irreplaceable. She was literally raised in the halls of Congress, so she knew Washington so intimately. Her father was the majority l"}
{"id": "761878395", "date": "2019-09-18", "guest": "Andrea Mitchell", "title": "Journalist Andrea Mitchell: Asking Tough Questions Is 'Very Empowering'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Well, Andrea Mitchell, I want to talk about you. This is a celebratory occasion for you. You're getting the Emmy award for lifetime achievement. I want to play a pretty recent clip. I mean, you are famous for asking tough questions and standing up to powerful people, not backing down, not being intimidated. This is an example of that. And it's from 2017, about seven weeks after President Trump was inaugurated. And this is a kind of famous moment in your career. Rex Tillerson, then secretary of state, had not answered questions from reporters in his public appearances. And he was doing a photo-op with the Ukrainian foreign minister at the State Department. And you just started shouting questions at him. And at the end of this clip, we will hear you being escorted out of the room. So here's Andrea Mitchell trying to get Rex Tillerson to answer her questions.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Cokie and I did so many things together, along with several others - Judy Woodruff, my close friend. But Cokie was there before any of us - in Washington, at National Public Radio. Such a mentor and f"}
{"id": "761878395", "date": "2019-09-18", "guest": "Andrea Mitchell", "title": "Journalist Andrea Mitchell: Asking Tough Questions Is 'Very Empowering'", "question_index": 5, "text": "OK, describe what we're not actually seeing, because this is radio. What's happening to you physically as you're trying to answer - to ask these questions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We haven't had any time in here. UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #2: I'm so sorry, but we're going to have to leave. Let's go."}
{"id": "761878395", "date": "2019-09-18", "guest": "Andrea Mitchell", "title": "Journalist Andrea Mitchell: Asking Tough Questions Is 'Very Empowering'", "question_index": 6, "text": "Did you expect him to answer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You can hear the shutters of those still photographers. And I'm being taken by the arm, you know, and just escorted out politely. And they're telling me that the time is up. And I'm trying - and we're"}
{"id": "761878395", "date": "2019-09-18", "guest": "Andrea Mitchell", "title": "Journalist Andrea Mitchell: Asking Tough Questions Is 'Very Empowering'", "question_index": 7, "text": "If...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. Because I think that when confronted, you know, face-to-face with someone, usually, you could get an answer. And we shouldn't have to ask questions chasing White House officials across the Nort"}
{"id": "761878395", "date": "2019-09-18", "guest": "Andrea Mitchell", "title": "Journalist Andrea Mitchell: Asking Tough Questions Is 'Very Empowering'", "question_index": 8, "text": "If Tillerson didn't want to answer your questions, were there other ways he could have handled it besides getting aides or security to physically escort you out of the room, to remove you from the room?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Rex Tillerson could've amplified America's message to the world if he had taken the trip - the press with him."}
{"id": "761878395", "date": "2019-09-18", "guest": "Andrea Mitchell", "title": "Journalist Andrea Mitchell: Asking Tough Questions Is 'Very Empowering'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is NBC News chief foreign affairs correspondent Andrea Mitchell, who also hosts \"Andrea Mitchell Report,\" (ph) noon Eastern Time on MSNBC. We're going to be back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. He could come into the briefing room and answer questions there. He could bring us on his airplane, as Mike Pompeo could. He only takes a very limited number of people, and not the television co"}
{"id": "761878395", "date": "2019-09-18", "guest": "Andrea Mitchell", "title": "Journalist Andrea Mitchell: Asking Tough Questions Is 'Very Empowering'", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Andrea Mitchell, NBC News chief foreign affairs correspondent and host of \"Andrea Mitchell Reports\" on MSNBC. And next week, she will receive a Lifetime Achievement Emmy at the News and Documentary Emmy Awards. So I want to play another clip that made news. And this was in July of 2018. You were interviewing Dan Coats, who was then Trump's director of national intelligence. And this was at the Aspen Security Conference in front of a live audience. And in the middle of the interview, you were handed some breaking news. Here we go.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. He could come into the briefing room and answer questions there. He could bring us on his airplane, as Mike Pompeo could. He only takes a very limited number of people, and not the television co"}
{"id": "761878395", "date": "2019-09-18", "guest": "Andrea Mitchell", "title": "Journalist Andrea Mitchell: Asking Tough Questions Is 'Very Empowering'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Andrea Mitchell, what was going through your mind then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's going to be special."}
{"id": "761878395", "date": "2019-09-18", "guest": "Andrea Mitchell", "title": "Journalist Andrea Mitchell: Asking Tough Questions Is 'Very Empowering'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Dan Coats, who is no longer in the administration.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was shocking to the audience, to Dan Coats - shocking that he did not know that the president of the United States had just invited Putin to the White House five days after a disastrous Helsi"}
{"id": "761878395", "date": "2019-09-18", "guest": "Andrea Mitchell", "title": "Journalist Andrea Mitchell: Asking Tough Questions Is 'Very Empowering'", "question_index": 13, "text": "Oh, was it? Yeah, so you're kind of responsible for this. Uh huh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And this was actually one of the - and I feel very badly about this - this was one of the early blows to his relationship with the president."}
{"id": "761878395", "date": "2019-09-18", "guest": "Andrea Mitchell", "title": "Journalist Andrea Mitchell: Asking Tough Questions Is 'Very Empowering'", "question_index": 14, "text": "So let's look to earlier parts of your career. When I moved to Philadelphia in the mid-'70s, you were famous in the city for your really aggressive, assertive coverage of then-Mayor Frank Rizzo. And you were always asking him really tough questions. You were kind of in his face. And he was such a divisive figure in Philly. He - you know, some people loved him. He had his base. But, you know, there was a - liberals had started a campaign to recall him from office. He was the former police commissioner. And as police commissioner and mayor, he was known for being hostile to African Americans and hippies and for the excessive use of force. So did he ever try to bully you? And did you find him intimidating when you started covering him on all news radio in Philadelphia?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I felt a sense of responsibility. The fact that Dan Coats, even months later, was so honest about saying that North Korea would never denuclearize. And being so rigorous about the cred"}
{"id": "761878395", "date": "2019-09-18", "guest": "Andrea Mitchell", "title": "Journalist Andrea Mitchell: Asking Tough Questions Is 'Very Empowering'", "question_index": 15, "text": "How did he bully you? What was his technique?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He did try to intimidate me all the time. He bullied me a lot. He was a classic bully."}
{"id": "761878395", "date": "2019-09-18", "guest": "Andrea Mitchell", "title": "Journalist Andrea Mitchell: Asking Tough Questions Is 'Very Empowering'", "question_index": 16, "text": "He's very popular and very unpopular.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He - well, one thing he did was to threaten to get me fired. I didn't know the full extent of it until years later. The news director told me how he had gone to the chairman of the board of the compan"}
{"id": "761878395", "date": "2019-09-18", "guest": "Andrea Mitchell", "title": "Journalist Andrea Mitchell: Asking Tough Questions Is 'Very Empowering'", "question_index": 17, "text": "You've been a trailblazer for women in journalism. When you started your journalism career in the late 1960s, did you consider yourself a feminist? Had you thought about the lack of equality that women had and how you'd have to fight to have a career in journalism and how important it would be as a precedent to have that fight?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And very unpopular, and, you know, as you've pointed out, you know, really hostile to African Americans - accusation of police corruption, police brutality. There was one incident where the Philadelph"}
{"id": "761878395", "date": "2019-09-18", "guest": "Andrea Mitchell", "title": "Journalist Andrea Mitchell: Asking Tough Questions Is 'Very Empowering'", "question_index": 18, "text": "My guest is Andrea Mitchell, NBC's chief foreign affairs correspondent and anchor of MSNBC's \"Andrea Mitchell Reports.\" We'll talk more after a break. And John Powers will review Attica Locke's new novel about an African American Texas Ranger searching for the vanished child of a white supremacist. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was forced by circumstance to - yes, to feel that I was going to have to fight for it because at the very first job that I got, that was being denied to me. I was ready to join the management traine"}
{"id": "761878395", "date": "2019-09-18", "guest": "Andrea Mitchell", "title": "Journalist Andrea Mitchell: Asking Tough Questions Is 'Very Empowering'", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Andrea Mitchell. She'll receive an Emmy for lifetime achievement next Tuesday at the News & Documentary Emmy ceremony. She is NBC's chief foreign affairs correspondent and anchor of MSNBC's \"Andrea Mitchell Reports.\" Over the years, she's covered Congress, the White House, presidential campaigns, the State Department. Mitchell has also been a trailblazer for women journalists. What were some of the preconceptions you had to fight about women?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was forced by circumstance to - yes, to feel that I was going to have to fight for it because at the very first job that I got, that was being denied to me. I was ready to join the management traine"}
{"id": "761878395", "date": "2019-09-18", "guest": "Andrea Mitchell", "title": "Journalist Andrea Mitchell: Asking Tough Questions Is 'Very Empowering'", "question_index": 20, "text": "You've referred to the conflict you've felt about wanting to be nice and wanting to be liked and, on the other hand, asking really tough questions and knowing that that's not going to endear you to", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The preconceptions initially were that women could just not do hard news, that they had to do women's social news, you know, fashion, food, family. And it was defined very rigorously that women couldn"}
{"id": "761878395", "date": "2019-09-18", "guest": "Andrea Mitchell", "title": "Journalist Andrea Mitchell: Asking Tough Questions Is 'Very Empowering'", "question_index": 21, "text": "the person you're asking, that you're going to get a lot of grief for that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The preconceptions initially were that women could just not do hard news, that they had to do women's social news, you know, fashion, food, family. And it was defined very rigorously that women couldn"}
{"id": "761878395", "date": "2019-09-18", "guest": "Andrea Mitchell", "title": "Journalist Andrea Mitchell: Asking Tough Questions Is 'Very Empowering'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Is that what you told your mother when she criticized you for being rude?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do want to be liked. But when it comes to asking a tough question, I think I don't hesitate. That instinct takes over or determination takes over, that you never forget that your role is as a report"}
{"id": "761878395", "date": "2019-09-18", "guest": "Andrea Mitchell", "title": "Journalist Andrea Mitchell: Asking Tough Questions Is 'Very Empowering'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Shouting questions at presidents.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "761878395", "date": "2019-09-18", "guest": "Andrea Mitchell", "title": "Journalist Andrea Mitchell: Asking Tough Questions Is 'Very Empowering'", "question_index": 24, "text": "You're known for your tough questions. And you say you learned everything you know about questioning artful dodgers from questioning President Reagan. I want you to explain that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she really didn't like that I shouted questions at Ronald Reagan because he would be going to the helicopter or coming back from Camp David from the helicopter, and that was the only chance we h"}
{"id": "761878395", "date": "2019-09-18", "guest": "Andrea Mitchell", "title": "Journalist Andrea Mitchell: Asking Tough Questions Is 'Very Empowering'", "question_index": 25, "text": "The staff was very nervous - his staff was very nervous about his age. And you write about an incident in July of 1982. Early in the history of the space shuttles, the White House was planning a big, patriotic arrival ceremony at Edwards Air Force Base for the landing of one of the space shuttles. And you learned that the space shuttle was going to make one extra orbit around the Earth to kind of stall for time so that Reagan could get an extra hour of sleep. How did you find that out? And how did you report it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was so adept with a quip, some ad lib joke at evading a question. And he - you know, he was just very experienced from his years as an actor and his years at G.E. Theater at speaking and communicat"}
{"id": "761878395", "date": "2019-09-18", "guest": "Andrea Mitchell", "title": "Journalist Andrea Mitchell: Asking Tough Questions Is 'Very Empowering'", "question_index": 26, "text": "Let's take a break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Andrea Mitchell, chief foreign affairs correspondent for NBC News and anchor of \"Andrea Mitchell Reports\" on MSNBC. Next week, she's going to get a lifetime achievement Emmy at the News & Documentary Emmy Awards. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I found that out from sources who knew very well what the original schedule was and how it had been adapted by the White House advance people. And when I reported it July 4 weekend, on NBC Nightly New"}
{"id": "761878395", "date": "2019-09-18", "guest": "Andrea Mitchell", "title": "Journalist Andrea Mitchell: Asking Tough Questions Is 'Very Empowering'", "question_index": 27, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Andrea Mitchell. And she's NBC's chief foreign affairs correspondent. And she anchors \"Andrea Mitchell Reports\" at noon, Eastern time, on MSNBC. Next week, she'll be getting a lifetime achievement Emmy at the News and Documentary Emmy Awards. What do you consider to be your biggest showdown with a president?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I found that out from sources who knew very well what the original schedule was and how it had been adapted by the White House advance people. And when I reported it July 4 weekend, on NBC Nightly New"}
{"id": "761878395", "date": "2019-09-18", "guest": "Andrea Mitchell", "title": "Journalist Andrea Mitchell: Asking Tough Questions Is 'Very Empowering'", "question_index": 28, "text": "This was Reagan, yeah?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the biggest showdown I had was actually with the chief of staff Don Regan over Iran-Contra when I asked a question of the president at a news conference..."}
{"id": "761878395", "date": "2019-09-18", "guest": "Andrea Mitchell", "title": "Journalist Andrea Mitchell: Asking Tough Questions Is 'Very Empowering'", "question_index": 29, "text": "How would you compare the kind of anger when Don Regan tried to shut you down to, for example, when President Trump tries to take away White House credentials of a broadcaster or calls journalists the enemy of the people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Which - this was Reagan. And it was 1987, and I asked a question about the revelation that Israel had helped with money for the Iran-Contra operation illegally. And he answered incorrectly. And the"}
{"id": "761878395", "date": "2019-09-18", "guest": "Andrea Mitchell", "title": "Journalist Andrea Mitchell: Asking Tough Questions Is 'Very Empowering'", "question_index": 30, "text": "And it's being shown all the time on television now. It's like he forgets that he said it in front of a camera and there's a record of what he said.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's much more profound now. There are - I'm sure have been lots of threats - private threats - in the past, anger at reporters individually. But for the president of the United States to call"}
{"id": "761878395", "date": "2019-09-18", "guest": "Andrea Mitchell", "title": "Journalist Andrea Mitchell: Asking Tough Questions Is 'Very Empowering'", "question_index": 31, "text": "Do you feel like your boundaries are shifted a little bit in terms of, like, subjective things that you could say about this president because the norms have been shattered, because he's shattered so many norms, because so many people are so concerned about the direction he's taking the country in and about, you know, even about war - that we might, you know, inadvertently, accidentally get into or intentionally get into, perhaps through a tweet? I mean, has that changed your confidence or your ability to give, like, opinion or to share a concern?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it's astounding. But he has a bigger megaphone. And when he says fake news, now you hear dictators around the world speaking about fake news. It's a term - and enemy of the people is a term that g"}
{"id": "761878395", "date": "2019-09-18", "guest": "Andrea Mitchell", "title": "Journalist Andrea Mitchell: Asking Tough Questions Is 'Very Empowering'", "question_index": 32, "text": "You're married to Alan Greenspan, the former chair of the Federal Reserve. And you were a couple before he was named chair by President Reagan. I know that you thought through, like, what were the conflict of interest issues that you would have to face when he took that position. Can you share with us how you've handled that over the years? I mean, he's retired now from - you know, he's no longer chair of the Fed. But he was - what? - for eight years chair.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It has changed my ability, and I'm not comfortable with it. I was raised in journalism where you would deliver the facts, provide the context, rely on your knowledge to say that this is likely to happ"}
{"id": "761878395", "date": "2019-09-18", "guest": "Andrea Mitchell", "title": "Journalist Andrea Mitchell: Asking Tough Questions Is 'Very Empowering'", "question_index": 33, "text": "Longer than that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For longer than that..."}
{"id": "761878395", "date": "2019-09-18", "guest": "Andrea Mitchell", "title": "Journalist Andrea Mitchell: Asking Tough Questions Is 'Very Empowering'", "question_index": 34, "text": "Was it that long? Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...For 19 - almost 20 years."}
{"id": "761878395", "date": "2019-09-18", "guest": "Andrea Mitchell", "title": "Journalist Andrea Mitchell: Asking Tough Questions Is 'Very Empowering'", "question_index": 35, "text": "You're, I think, 5'3\". I'm shorter than that. I know there is at least once when you had to stand on a box for your report in order to be seen by the camera with the right shot. Have there been more instances of that where you had to, like, stand on a box?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a long time. And we knew each other and were dating. And then he gets this appointment and immediately, of course, went to my bureau chief and said, we have to figure out the rules of the road "}
{"id": "761878395", "date": "2019-09-18", "guest": "Andrea Mitchell", "title": "Journalist Andrea Mitchell: Asking Tough Questions Is 'Very Empowering'", "question_index": 36, "text": "How often have you done that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There've been so many instances. I've stood on boxes all over the world. You do what you have to do. I've stood on ladders. I've stood on tables. I've stood on boxes. But the advantage of being short "}
{"id": "761878395", "date": "2019-09-18", "guest": "Andrea Mitchell", "title": "Journalist Andrea Mitchell: Asking Tough Questions Is 'Very Empowering'", "question_index": 37, "text": "So a lot of people are used to you crawling around the floor or used to be used to you doing that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All the time."}
{"id": "761878395", "date": "2019-09-18", "guest": "Andrea Mitchell", "title": "Journalist Andrea Mitchell: Asking Tough Questions Is 'Very Empowering'", "question_index": 38, "text": "Did you have to learn how to have a really big voice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's one of the things that is less than dignified. But if you've got - in the old days with Sam Donaldson and Bill Plante, these, you know, tall guys shouting questions behind the cameras, if y"}
{"id": "761878395", "date": "2019-09-18", "guest": "Andrea Mitchell", "title": "Journalist Andrea Mitchell: Asking Tough Questions Is 'Very Empowering'", "question_index": 39, "text": "Well, it's one more thing. That's how a lot of - that's the way Trump talks to reporters now is with the helicopter in the background. And the sound of that helicopter noise often drowns out the reporters asking the questions.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I recall that one of the chapters in my book is called Designated Shouter, and that was my job for many years at the Reagan White House was shouting and trying to be heard over a helicopter."}
{"id": "761878395", "date": "2019-09-18", "guest": "Andrea Mitchell", "title": "Journalist Andrea Mitchell: Asking Tough Questions Is 'Very Empowering'", "question_index": 40, "text": "Andrea Mitchell, thank you for this interview. Thank you for your reporting, and congratulations on the Emmy you will be receiving next week.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. And it would be - you know, sometimes, it's close to 100 degrees, and they've been out there for an hour waiting for him. And then there'll be an hour where he'll talk. And, obviously, it's h"}
{"id": "761878395", "date": "2019-09-18", "guest": "Andrea Mitchell", "title": "Journalist Andrea Mitchell: Asking Tough Questions Is 'Very Empowering'", "question_index": 41, "text": "Andrew Mitchell is NBC's chief foreign affairs correspondent and anchor of MSNBC's \"Andrea Mitchell Reports.\" On Tuesday, she'll receive an Emmy for lifetime achievement at the News & Documentary Emmy ceremony. After we take a short break, John Powers will review Attica Locke's new novel about an African American Texas ranger searching for the vanished child of a white supremacist. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry Gross, it's such an honor to be with you. Thank you so much."}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. In the new Ken Burns PBS series on the history of country music, my guest, Doug Green, talks about the era of the singing cowboy as epitomized by the most popular one, Gene Autry. Cowboy lore, folk ballads, jazz, Tin Pan Alley and Hollywood are all ingredients of the music of the singing cowboys who were movie staples in the '30s and '40s and then on TV in the '50s. A lot of the music has been forgotten, but Green wrote about its history in his book, \"Singing In The Saddle.\" And he performs the music with his Western band, Riders In The Sky, which is celebrating its 42nd anniversary. They've won two Grammys and, in the movie \"Toy Story 2,\" performed the song \"Woody's Roundup,\" the theme for the toy cowboy's TV puppet show. Green also plays Western music on the show he co-hosts, \"Classic Cowboy Corral,\" on the Sirius XM channel Willie's Roadhouse. He's brought some great recordings for us to hear. I love this music, and I hope you will too. Doug Green, welcome to FRESH AIR. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for playing me so much good", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 1, "text": "cowboy music on your show Saturday nights on satellite radio. So let's start with a song.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 2, "text": "And since Gene Autry was the first popular singing cowboy in the movies, and since I love his singing, let's start there. And we'll start with a song that I always thought was a really corny song, but I love it so much now. I love this recording so much. It's Gene Autry's \"Back In The Saddle Again.\" So what's this - what's the importance of this song historically, and why do you love it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 3, "text": "Wow. You know the guy who wrote \"Back In The Saddle Again?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I love it because - partly because a friend of mine wrote it, Ray Whitley, who was one of the singing cowboys that followed Gene into the movies. And..."}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 4, "text": "Whoa.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 5, "text": "No.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a great story. Do you know the story?"}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yeah. So tell me why you love this song, besides knowing the songwriter.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's kind of a great idea."}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 7, "text": "But talk about it musically too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it - you know, it's very evocative of the West. A lot of Western music was very escapist and came to flower and fruition in the Depression era. And I think songs like \"Back In The Saddle\" just r"}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 8, "text": "Oh, and Gene Autry's voice is so great. And there's such a kind of, like - the band has such a kind of lilting swing to it in this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 9, "text": "So here's Gene Autry, \"Back In The Saddle Again.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Gene Autry's records from the '30s are a little more stiff. But by the time he started getting a really nice little band in the '40s, those records are just lovely. He had a voice that was just friend"}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 10, "text": "That's Gene Autry's recording \"Back In The Saddle Again\" from which film, Doug?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I'm back in the saddle again, out where a friend is a friend. Where the longhorn cattle feed on the lowly jimsonweed, I'm back in the saddle again. Ridin' the range once more, totin' my old "}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 11, "text": "OK. So Doug Green is an expert on cowboy songs and also sings them with his band, Riders In The Sky. So where do singing cowboys fit in in the history of American music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he recorded it several times. That was his Columbia recording of 1946. But he had recorded it earlier in the '30s, and he made a film of that title as well."}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, you mentioned Sons of the Pioneers. Roy Rogers was, for a while, with the Sons of the Pioneers, and then he replaced Gene Autry in the movies. He had been in some Gene Autry movies, I think as the bad guy in some of them in fact, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", and people associated the songs with cowboys and with the West and the romance of the West, the wide-open spaces. And people like Bob Nolan and Tim Spencer with the Sons of the Pioneers began writin"}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 13, "text": "So since Roy Rogers was also a very famous singing cowboy, and since he sang with Sons of the Pioneers, let's kind of combine them...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, he was."}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 14, "text": "...And have a Roy Rogers song with Sons of the Pioneers - you know, Roy Rogers is singing lead on this. And this is \"Blue Shadows On The Trail.\" Do you want to say anything about this song or this recording before we hear it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 15, "text": "And the animated critters are kind of echoed by the whistling", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was featured in a Walt Disney picture called \"Melody Time,\" and it - that had three episodes. And this one was set in the West. He sang \"Pecos Bill,\" and then he and the Pioneers gathered aro"}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 16, "text": ", and that we'll hear at the opening of this song. So this is Sons of the Pioneers with Roy Rogers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was featured in a Walt Disney picture called \"Melody Time,\" and it - that had three episodes. And this one was set in the West. He sang \"Pecos Bill,\" and then he and the Pioneers gathered aro"}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 17, "text": "That's Sons of the Pioneers with Roy Rogers singing lead. And we're talking about cowboy music. My guest, Doug Green, is an expert in cowboy music. And he sings lead in the cowboy music band Riders in the Sky. He also hosts a cowboy music show on satellite radio on Willie Nelson's channel Willie's Roadhouse. And also he's been on Ken Burns' \"Country Music\" series on public television. Well, we should hear a woman singing cowboy music. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Whistling, singing) Shades of night are fallin' as the wind begins to sigh and the world is silhouetted 'gainst (ph) the sky. (Whistling) Blue shadows on the trail, (whistling) blue moon shinin' thro"}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 18, "text": "Yeah. And there were - there - you know, the famous cowboys were men. But for instance, in a Gene Autry movie, there was always a love - or usually a love interest. And she was usually a really strong woman who could also sing", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let's do that."}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 19, "text": ". So there's some interesting singers in those movies. But here's somebody - here's a great recording that you've chosen for us to hear today. And this is Rosalie Allen singing \"Wide Rolling Plains.\" So tell us about Rosalie Allen.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let's do that."}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 20, "text": "OK. So here's Rosalie Allen.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Rosalie Allen was a little Polish girl from Pennsylvania who fell in love with the music of Patsy Montana and became a great yodeler. And again, I was very lucky to know her and to be able to sing wit"}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 21, "text": "That was Rosalie Allen singing \"Wide Rolling Plains.\" And with me is Doug Green, who's an expert in cowboy music. So a lot of the women seem to be yodelers and some of them, like, really fancy yodelers..", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I want to ride, ride and yodel while I'm riding on those wide rolling plains. I want to ride, ride with a cowboy beside me on those wide rolling plains, let the world go by beneath the sunny"}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 22, "text": "Yeah", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, baby."}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 23, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, baby."}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 24, "text": "Is there reason why so many women became known for their yodeling?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 25, "text": "So let's get to another great woman country singer, and she's a great songwriter. You referred to her because she wrote the Rosalie Allen song that we just heard. So now we're going to hear Cindy Walker sing one of her own songs. And, you know, among the songs she wrote, she wrote \"You Don't Know Me,\" which Ray Charles has such a great recording of. It was a big hit for him. A lot of our listeners might know \"Blue Canadian Rockies\" that was on the Byrds' album \"Sweetheart Of The Rodeo.\" And as you mentioned, she wrote for Bob Wills and Gene Autry. So - oh, and she wrote Roy Orbison's song \"Dream Baby.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I suppose we can trace that back to Patsy Montana again, as she just popularized it the way Jimmie Rodgers popularized it for men. And Gene Autry and Roy Rogers and Elton Britt and Rex Allen took it t"}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 26, "text": "And Willie Nelson did a whole album of her songs. That's how much he appreciates her. So you've chosen a song for us to hear by Cindy Walker called \"Ridin' On Down.\" And the album that it's from is even called \"The Swingin' Cowgirl From Texas\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 28, "text": "And I have to say, listening to this, it sounds very much like she loves Bessie Smith.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 29, "text": "Yeah. OK. So here's Cindy Walker singing one of her own.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. She was very influenced by a lot of the performers of the '20s and '30s."}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 30, "text": "That was Cindy Walker singing her song \"Ridin' On Down,\" one of the songs selected for us today by Doug Green. And he is an expert in cowboy music and hosts a show on cowboy music on satellite radio on Willie's Roadhouse, Willie Nelson's channel. And he's also featured in the Ken Burns series on country music. So this is just a great chance to catch up on cowboy songs. So we're going to do more of that after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Hey, Cotton. Have you seen Joe? Yes, I saw him about an hour ago. He was looking sad, riding alone, singing this song. Goodbye, gal. Goodbye, baby. You're going to miss me some day maybe. Bu"}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 31, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, we're listening to some great cowboy songs with a great expert in cowboy songs, Doug Green, who sings cowboy songs with his band Riders in the Sky and plays recordings of cowboy songs on his satellite radio show, which is called \"Classic Cowboy Corral,\" on satellite radio on Willie's Roadhouse. You may have also seen him on Ken Burns' \"Country Music\" series. So there's also movies that were - that starred black singing cowboys. Probably the most famous of the black singing cowboys was Herb Jeffries. And a lot of his movies have, like, Harlem in the title", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Hey, Cotton. Have you seen Joe? Yes, I saw him about an hour ago. He was looking sad, riding alone, singing this song. Goodbye, gal. Goodbye, baby. You're going to miss me some day maybe. Bu"}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 32, "text": ". So what was the premise of some of his movies that enabled Harlem and cowboy to be in the same sentence?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Hey, Cotton. Have you seen Joe? Yes, I saw him about an hour ago. He was looking sad, riding alone, singing this song. Goodbye, gal. Goodbye, baby. You're going to miss me some day maybe. Bu"}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 33, "text": "So Herb Jeffries ended his movie career to join Duke Ellington's band.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, as you sort of referred to, once Gene Autry became popular, then every studio had to have a singing cowboy. And there was a Mexican singing cowboy. There was a woman singing cowgirl, Dorothy Pag"}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 34, "text": "So we're going to hear \"The Cowpoke's Life Is The Only Life For Me.\" And I think this is actually from the film, as opposed to from a record.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He did, and he did that very popular Duke Ellington record, \"Flamingo.\" He's the one that sang that. And he had a great career as a singer. He was - had an incredible voice. And a wonderful guy. He li"}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 35, "text": "OK. So this is Herb Jeffries.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it is. I've - on my show, I've taken a stripped - you could call it - I've stripped the songs out of movies for the show, and this is one of them. It's - he has a beautiful voice, as you'll hear,"}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 36, "text": "So that was Herb Jeffries, one of the black singing cowboy, singing \"The Cowpoke's Life Is The Only Life For Me,\" a song selected for us by my guest Doug Green, who is an expert in cowboy songs and sings them with his band, Riders in the Sky. I think we need to get in some Western swing...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) When the cowpoke's day has ended, and the sun has gone to rest, and the prairie seems so peaceful and so free, yet there is no one to greet him at his cabin in the West. Oh, the cowpoke's li"}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 37, "text": "...And play some Bob Wills and the Texas Playboys. Where does Western swing fit into cowboy music? Because it's not really cowboy music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 38, "text": "And do you want to talk a little bit about the instrumentation in Bob Wills?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it's not. There is a lot of cross-fertilization, but Western swing is essentially dance music. And while there's - a lot of the outfits are Western, and a lot of the themes of many of the songs ar"}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 39, "text": "So we're going to hear one of Bob Wills' most famous songs. This is \"New San Antonio Rose.\" You want to say a few words about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, sure. The - Bob Wills and His Texas Playboys started with a fiddle or two, and they added drums and piano. And at his peak, Bob, of course, had a very big band with two or three singers and thre"}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 40, "text": "So here's Bob Wills and the Texas Playboys.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. It was an old fiddle tune that they - he released in the late '30s. And the publisher decided that they needed lyrics, and so they came up with some new lyrics, and it's become one of the great "}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 41, "text": "BOB WILLS", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. It was an old fiddle tune that they - he released in the late '30s. And the publisher decided that they needed lyrics, and so they came up with some new lyrics, and it's become one of the great "}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 42, "text": "That's Bob Wills and the Texas Playboys. My guest is Doug Green, lead singer of the western band Riders in the Sky. He's featured in the new Ken Burns PBS series on the history of country music. We'll talk more after a break. We'll also listen back to my 1988 interview with Grateful Dead lyricist Robert Hunter. He died Monday. And Maureen Corrigan will review a book about one of the most famous poems of the 20th century. She says it's the kind of poem people reach for in times of trouble. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Deep within my heart lies a melody, a song of old San Antone (ph) - San Antone - where in dreams I live with a memory beneath the stars, all alone. It was there I found, beside the Alamo, en"}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 43, "text": "BOB WILLS", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Deep within my heart lies a melody, a song of old San Antone (ph) - San Antone - where in dreams I live with a memory beneath the stars, all alone. It was there I found, beside the Alamo, en"}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 44, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Doug Green. In the new Ken Burns series on the history of country music, Green serves as an expert on cowboy songs, focusing on Hollywood's famous singing cowboy Gene Autry. Green is also the author of a book about the history of the singing cowboy. He's best known as the lead singer of the western band Riders in the Sky, which has won two Grammys. With a fellow band member, he co-hosts the SiriusXM radio show \"Classic Cowboy Corral\" on the channel Willie's Roadhouse. How did you get interested in cowboy music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) San Antone."}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 45, "text": "On your satellite radio show on Willie's Roadhouse, where you play cowboy songs, your partner in the band plays the role of the sidekick because there's always a sidekick in Westerns, you know, whether it's like Pat Brady or - you know, with Roy Rogers or Smiley Burnette with Gene Autry.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A lot of different ways. My grandparents were Finnish immigrants and lived in the northern peninsula of Michigan, and they listened to the \"National Barn Dance.\" So a couple of my uncles ordered cheap"}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 46, "text": "So the sidekick is named, in your work, Sidemeat. And every time I hear that, I think how did they come up with that name? So you can explain that to me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 47, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "have some sort of funny name. And, you know, Sidemeat has a very fascinating story. He was one of the original cowboys that drove the herds up the Chisholm Trail after the Civil War. And after the cow"}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 48, "text": "I love that you came up with such an elaborate backstory for him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And - but with global warming, he - we found him just as he was thawing out and added him to our crew as our cook and our sidekick."}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 49, "text": "Yeah, he's got the voice of the grizzled old prospector.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, he co-hosts with me. I provide the information, and he interrupts and asks the obvious question."}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 50, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He certainly does."}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 51, "text": "Let's talk a little bit about the fun and the absurdity of some singing cowboy movies. I mean, like, the Gene Autry movies for the most part are really, like, cheap looking, you know, and all the big fights, there's, like, somebody punching each other, throwing a chair over someone or jumping out the window.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Gabby Hayes was his hero, no doubt about it."}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 52, "text": "There's, like, standard tropes that were in all of them. But, you know, you had to have a way for the singing cowboy to sing. So sometimes he'd be singing in the saddle. Sometimes he'd be serenading his girlfriend. Sometimes he and his girlfriend would be singing duets on their horses. But sometimes he'd be singing with his guitar, and suddenly, this invisible string orchestra is behind him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Gabby Hayes was his hero, no doubt about it."}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 53, "text": "So can you talk about some of the beauty and some of the absurdity of the singing cowboy films?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Gabby Hayes was his hero, no doubt about it."}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 54, "text": "One of the ways of getting music into Western movies that didn't have singing cowboys in them - they just had cowboys - was to have a theme, a title theme, that was a song. And I think the most successful version of that was the theme for \"High Noon,\" which was sung for the movie by Tex Ritter, and later Frankie Laine had a big hit of it. So we should hear that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 55, "text": "But talk about it a little bit. Talk about the importance of that song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, let's."}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 56, "text": "Doom?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's a very interesting story on that because they - it wasn't part of the original movie. And when they screened it, they just felt they needed something really special, and it happened to be Tex "}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 57, "text": "There's a sense of doom because the song is about what the movie is about, which is that bad guys are coming to seek revenge against the sheriff.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's a very good word for it. There was - yes, there was a sense of doom that he brought to that and a great sincerity, which he projected always in his songs. He was a brilliant communicator."}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 58, "text": "And the sheriff knows he's going to be outnumbered. But he can't die a coward, so he has to stand up to them, even though it might be the end.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 59, "text": "It's a great film. It's really beautifully shot.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. His wife, played by Grace Kelly, is a Quaker. She doesn't believe in violence. The town is all afraid of Frank Miller and his gang. And Gary Cooper has to stand up to him."}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 60, "text": "And Dimitri Tiomkin, who's one of, like, the great movie composers, wrote the score for this, and I think he wrote the song, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It sure is."}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 61, "text": "Lyricist?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He did. Ned Washington was the..."}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 62, "text": "OK. So this is Tex Ritter singing \"High Noon.\" And one more thing about Tex Ritter - he had a really low bottom to his voice when he wanted to.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Wrote the lyrics."}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 63, "text": "OK, so here's the theme from \"High Noon.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes, he did."}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 64, "text": "That was the theme from \"High Noon\" sung by Tex Ritter. Doug Green, it's really been great to talk with you. Thank you so much for playing some music for us. It's been great to hear the songs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Do not forsake, oh, my darling, on this, our wedding day. Do not forsake me, oh, my darling. Wait, wait along. I do not know what fate awaits me. I only know I must be brave. And I must face"}
{"id": "764227667", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Doug Green", "title": "Western Music Expert Doug Green Revisits The Era Of The Singing Cowboy", "question_index": 65, "text": "Doug Green is the lead singer of the western band Riders In The Sky. He's featured in the new Ken Burns PBS series on the history of country music. After we take a short break, we'll listen back to my 1988 interview with Robert Hunter, who wrote the lyrics to many of the Grateful Dead's best-known songs. He died Monday. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) We made a vow while in the state's prisons..."}
{"id": "764237225", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Grateful Dead", "title": "Remembering Grateful Dead Lyricist Robert Hunter", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Robert Hunter, who wrote lyrics for many Grateful Dead songs, died Monday. He was 78. We've dipped into our archives so we could play back my interview with him. Hunter wrote lyrics to songs Dead fans know by heart like these.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "764237225", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Grateful Dead", "title": "Remembering Grateful Dead Lyricist Robert Hunter", "question_index": 1, "text": "Robert Hunter and Jerry Garcia met when they were teenagers and played folk music together. After Garcia formed the Grateful Dead in the mid-'60s, Hunter started writing most of the lyrics for Garcia's songs. In the mid-'60s, the Grateful Dead were the house band for Ken Kesey's Acid Tests, parties in which people were tripping out on LSD, parties that helped bring acid into the counterculture. Hunter's first experience with LSD and other psychedelics was when he was given them as part of a Stanford research project that he did not know was funded by the CIA, which was looking for a mind control drug. The CIA's mind control program was the subject of an interview we did just a few weeks ago on FRESH AIR. My interview with Robert Hunter was recorded in 1988, seven years before the death of Jerry Garcia.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Trucking. Like the do-dah man once told me, you've got to play your hand. Sometimes your cards ain't worth a dime if you don't lay them down. Sometimes the light's all shining on me. Other t"}
{"id": "764237225", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Grateful Dead", "title": "Remembering Grateful Dead Lyricist Robert Hunter", "question_index": 2, "text": "When you're writing a song with Garcia - and he's writing the music, you're writing the lyrics. Let me ask that age-old question of, which comes first?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Trucking. Like the do-dah man once told me, you've got to play your hand. Sometimes your cards ain't worth a dime if you don't lay them down. Sometimes the light's all shining on me. Other t"}
{"id": "764237225", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Grateful Dead", "title": "Remembering Grateful Dead Lyricist Robert Hunter", "question_index": 3, "text": "When you were traveling with the band and the people who were onstage would get so much attention, would you ever feel a little left out", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what's happening right now is Jerry's coming over to the house every day. We're getting some songs together for a new album. And I give him some starter ideas, and he looks at those. And we just"}
{"id": "764237225", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Grateful Dead", "title": "Remembering Grateful Dead Lyricist Robert Hunter", "question_index": 4, "text": "as the lyricist who wasn't on the stage basking in all the glory?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what's happening right now is Jerry's coming over to the house every day. We're getting some songs together for a new album. And I give him some starter ideas, and he looks at those. And we just"}
{"id": "764237225", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Grateful Dead", "title": "Remembering Grateful Dead Lyricist Robert Hunter", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, you bet I did. Oh, oh, it was misery..."}
{"id": "764237225", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Grateful Dead", "title": "Remembering Grateful Dead Lyricist Robert Hunter", "question_index": 6, "text": "Can you confirm this for me? I read somewhere that you were one of the participants in the Stanford University program of government experimentation with LSD in the early 1960s.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...All those jerks up there getting all that glory and all the girls and everything like that and just miserable. All I had was my spiral notebook. Yeah, boy - well, I'll get even."}
{"id": "764237225", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Grateful Dead", "title": "Remembering Grateful Dead Lyricist Robert Hunter", "question_index": 7, "text": "No kidding", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. They paid me $140 to take - first, LSD, second, psilocybin, I think, third, mescaline, and then the fourth week, all three of them together..."}
{"id": "764237225", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Grateful Dead", "title": "Remembering Grateful Dead Lyricist Robert Hunter", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. They paid me $140 to take - first, LSD, second, psilocybin, I think, third, mescaline, and then the fourth week, all three of them together..."}
{"id": "764237225", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Grateful Dead", "title": "Remembering Grateful Dead Lyricist Robert Hunter", "question_index": 9, "text": "Oh, gosh. What did they tell you about LSD before they gave it to you the first time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Which was a joy in one way. But they also came and took five cc of blood every two hours. And when you're hoined (ph) out on acid - here comes Dracula again."}
{"id": "764237225", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Grateful Dead", "title": "Remembering Grateful Dead Lyricist Robert Hunter", "question_index": 10, "text": "Oh, and that's why you wanted to be in the program probably.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nothing. They didn't want me to know a thing about it. And I lied to them. I told them that I knew nothing about it, and I had read \"Doors Of Perception,\" in fact."}
{"id": "764237225", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Grateful Dead", "title": "Remembering Grateful Dead Lyricist Robert Hunter", "question_index": 11, "text": "Do you think that tripping a lot changed the kind of lyrics that you were writing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And they called it - the word at the time was psychotomimetic drugs, miming psychosis. And they wanted to find out if it increased your ability to be hypnotized and to take suggestions. And I do"}
{"id": "764237225", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Grateful Dead", "title": "Remembering Grateful Dead Lyricist Robert Hunter", "question_index": 12, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it had to."}
{"id": "764237225", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Grateful Dead", "title": "Remembering Grateful Dead Lyricist Robert Hunter", "question_index": 13, "text": "I figure if I had a nickel for everyone who got really high and listened to your lyrics and tried to figure out the more elliptical imagery, I'd really be a wealthy woman. What are some of the crazier interpretations you've gotten of some of your song lyrics?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It had to. I mean, it was - I was tripping around in mystic space and making the mystic connections, which I think were right for the time. I look back on that stuff with a great deal of affection. An"}
{"id": "764237225", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Grateful Dead", "title": "Remembering Grateful Dead Lyricist Robert Hunter", "question_index": 14, "text": "Can I ask you about a song - another song, \"Uncle John's Band?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, heavens. Well, there was a time - it may still be so - when people would swear that I was writing about them. And if something is personal enough, there's a certain line where it becomes universal"}
{"id": "764237225", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Grateful Dead", "title": "Remembering Grateful Dead Lyricist Robert Hunter", "question_index": 15, "text": "One of the lines is when life looks like Easy Street, there's danger at your door.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm hmm."}
{"id": "764237225", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Grateful Dead", "title": "Remembering Grateful Dead Lyricist Robert Hunter", "question_index": 16, "text": "Can I ask you - have you ever thought - were you thinking of something specific when you wrote that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, God, is that true."}
{"id": "764237225", "date": "2019-09-25", "guest": "Grateful Dead", "title": "Remembering Grateful Dead Lyricist Robert Hunter", "question_index": 17, "text": "My interview with Robert Hunter was recorded in 1988. He died Monday at the age of 78. After we take a short break, Maureen Corrigan will review a book about one of the most famous poems of the 20th century, written as World War II was beginning. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was thinking about the - sort of the hippie, self-congratulatory thing that we'd really conquered all this. You know, here, we've got - we've ended the Vietnam War. We've done this, the other thing."}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Claire Tomalin, welcome to FRESH AIR. I really love your memoir. And I'm going to ask you to read the first few lines of your introductory note.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. In telling the story of her own life, our guest, Claire Tomalin, has tried to tell a larger story of British women of her generation. She was bo"}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 1, "text": "I think that will give our listeners a sense of where you're going to be going in this book and also how well you write. Did writing biographies help you understand the story of your own life and find the parts that you thought may be of interest and value to others?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) Writing about myself has not been easy. I have tried to be as truthful as possible, which has meant moving between the trivial and the tragic in a way that could seem callous. But that is ho"}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 2, "text": "In your introductory note, you write about how you were carried along by conflicting desires to have children and a worthwhile working life and how long it took you to get going with your work. You went to Cambridge University when there were few women there. Then when you started applying for jobs, you applied to the BBC. Tell us what you were told about applying as a woman to the BBC.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I suppose it did encourage me to try and write about my own life. I think particularly working on Samuel Pepys, the diarist - the 17th century diarist - because what is so extraordinary with him is th"}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Why didn't they think you would get it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So that was a pretty smart put-down from the BBC."}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 4, "text": "And you were judged on your looks, too. Weren't you graded a 7 out of 10?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I really don't know. Perhaps they just thought I was unsuitable in some way."}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 5, "text": "And that was good enough to get the job.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It was very funny."}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 6, "text": "So you married when you were young. You were 21, and your husband Nick Tomalin, who was a journalist, was 23. You had two daughters. And then you had a baby who was born with sores or growths over his whole body. Why that happened - no one ever explained what the cause was. No one ever was able to explain. This baby died very soon. Can you talk a little bit about the quality of grief for a baby that lived so briefly?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just about, yes."}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 7, "text": "So at the same time you were having all these children, your marriage wasn't working out. Your husband Nick became a famous reporter in England. He was gone a lot of the time. He started having affairs. And you write, my role now was as the boring suburban wife with too many children who held him back. So if you thought he saw you that way, did you start to see yourself that way, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was extremely painful because he was brought to me wrapped up. So I saw his head and held him. And he had dark hair and dark eyes, and of course I loved him. He was my baby. And I knew there was so"}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 8, "text": "So but did you start to see yourself as a boring suburban wife?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I find it hard to remember. I was terribly upset when I realized he was having affairs. He was very charming, clever, handsome. He was editing the London Star in London, surrounded by brilliant "}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 9, "text": "You write, the collapse of our marriage was not all his fault. We were too young to marry. You were 21. He was 23 when you got married. And I was not the right wife for him. I was too serious, too critical. I was charmed by him, but I did not adore him, and he fell in love with girls who either did adore him or who knew how to convey adoration. I saw him changing into an almost unrecognizable person, and I had no idea how to respond. What about responding to the women he was having affairs with? Were you angry with them, and did you wonder how they could have affairs with a married man?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I was beginning to do some book reviewing - children's book reviewing, the first offer you get usually in those days if you're a woman. Colleagues from Cambridge who were becoming literary editors s"}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Accidentally or on purpose?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Oh, really? Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, you say he kept leaving home and then returning.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's not in the book. You're making me remember things that are not in - but it's true. I did not adore him. I see there is a difference. There is a big difference between getting on very well - we "}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 13, "text": "Your parents had divorced when you were young. How did that affect your decision to try to keep the family together in spite of the fact that he was not only having affairs; he was leaving you for other women and then coming back?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he did that fairly often, yes, yes."}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is writer Claire Tomalin. She's best known for her biographies of people like Dickens and the early feminist Mary Wollstonecraft. But now she's written her own memoir, and it's called \"A Life Of My Own.\" We'll be back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I suppose I resisted the idea of divorce. On the other hand, when he said he wanted the divorce, I did finally say all right. I mean, he told all his family, all my family. But he always changed"}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is writer Claire Tomalin. After years of being a book reviewer and editor in England, she became a biographer with acclaimed biographies of people like the early feminist Mary Wollstonecraft and Charles Dickens. Now she's written about her own life in a memoir called \"A Life Of My Own.\" At some point, your husband Nick became more violent to you. He hit you. You needed stitches on your lip once. After you had a brief affair - and that followed after him having had several affairs - he hit you again, and he tried to run over the man you'd had the affair with.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I suppose I resisted the idea of divorce. On the other hand, when he said he wanted the divorce, I did finally say all right. I mean, he told all his family, all my family. But he always changed"}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 16, "text": "I'm curious about the decision to stay with a man who could be violent 'cause you write you had to adjust to the fact that he could be violent, and you prepared yourself for more possibilities of that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 17, "text": "After you reunited again in 1970, you decided to have another baby. Why did you decide to have another baby when you knew that there was something shaky in the foundation of your marriage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "ever since as a memorial. I have it on my kitchen door now. As it happened, I actually realized something - that I was living with a man who thought it was all right for him to have affairs but it was"}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 18, "text": "Your baby Tom was born with spina bifida. Would you explain what that is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I suppose I just wanted to have another baby. And I suppose I had a very strong sense of the family. I - the reason I always took Nick back was that I thought the family was so important. And wh"}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 19, "text": "That's, like, a swelling of the brain.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Spina bifida happens when the spinal cord doesn't close properly. And in Tom's case, it was quite severe. And after he was born, almost immediately I was told I must decide whether I wanted them to op"}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 20, "text": "So you mentioned your friend who had a baby with a similar problem was told, don't have the operation; your baby will live a few months and then will die.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "and how he envied me, my situation, you know? He didn't think it was a terrible disaster having a handicapped son. He thought I was really enviable to have this beautiful baby. He was a very beautiful"}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 21, "text": "And you write that you wondered if your son Tom could possibly have a life worth living. Do you think that the doctor should have offered you the chance to have what's sometimes described as a merciful death for your son?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes."}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Tom has never been able to walk or stand. And you wrote at some point you stopped taking him to the playground because it was painful for him...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no. I'm not going to say that because Tom is now 48 years old, and he's - extraordinary character. He's the courage of a lion. And he's battled with such bravery through life that he's an exampl"}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 23, "text": "...And for you to watch the other children being able to do things that he'd never be able to do.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Your husband Nick, who had, you know, in the '70s become a pretty famous journalist in England - he went on a reporting trip to Israel just after the start of the Yom Kippur War when Syria and Egypt launched a surprise attack on Israel on Yom Kippur, which is the holiest day of the year in the Jewish calendar. And he told you that he thought he'd be safe. He told you, I wouldn't go anywhere dangerous now with four children; but the Israelis know how to look after journalists, and I'll be perfectly safe with them. While driving toward the front lines, he was killed by a Syrian heat-guided missile. And one of the things that really horrified you about his death was the idea of him dying alone. Could you talk a little bit about why that was such a horrible thought for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I can remember him looking at the other children. And quite recently he said to me - I was talking to him about this, and he said, well, I believed then that when I grew up, I would be able to wa"}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 25, "text": "You write it changed your life when you realized you were now in charge of it. How did it change your life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think anyone should die alone. I think when you're dying, you really do need someone with you. And it's - the German reporter who was there rang - telephoned me after he got back and said that"}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 26, "text": "Why did you think it would be better to take the job?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "which was absolutely wonderful. And I was - then John Gross, who was at the New Statesman, said, I must come. He wanted to go to the Times Literary Supplement, and he thought I should come and be lite"}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 27, "text": "So your first biography was a biography of Mary Wollstonecraft, the early feminist who wrote \"A Vindication Of The Rights Of Women,\" which was published in 1792, and argued that women were the equals of men. How did this historical look at feminism and Wollstonecraft's life affect your understanding of your own life? Did it?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. We're listening to the interview Terry recorded last year with Claire Tomalin. After writing biographies of Charles Dickens, Jane Austen and the"}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 28, "text": "So did Mary Wollstonecraft's writing and how she lived her life affect how you lived your life after your husband was killed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was rather interesting. I wrote it because when I was taking maternity leave to have Tom, the editor of the New Statesman - I'd been working already as deputy literary editor. And he said, pl"}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 29, "text": "Did her biography also give you a sense of strength or courage in pursuing an independent life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, studying her was amazing to me because I discovered this woman in the 18th century who seemed to be living a life very, very much like mine. She was living in North London. She was working on a "}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 30, "text": "I want to ask you about another tragedy in your life. Your second-oldest daughter, Susanna, got profoundly depressed in 1979 while she was attending Cambridge University.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "faithless to her. And so she's done - she sort of slightly turned into a romantic heroine. She is completely fascinating figure to me still."}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 31, "text": "At Oxford - I'm sorry. Thank you. And then she took her life in 1980.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, she was at Oxford."}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 32, "text": "And you found her depression - it sounds like everyone who knew her found her depression unfathomable because it was such a sudden, inexplicable change from how she had been in the past. Have you ever found any explanation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 33, "text": "It turned out to be true, though.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've just been looking again at Sylvia Plath's \"The Bell Jar,\" and it suddenly struck me - this is just this last week - that what she describes in that book, the depression she falls into, is very li"}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 34, "text": "You know, and in her suicide note, she wrote that she was sorry, but, quote, \"it could get worse.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was true, yes. It was true."}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 35, "text": "So I guess she was really afraid of that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that's right, but I suppose that..."}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 36, "text": "Yeah. You write, the grief has to be set aside, but it does not go away. It arrives each morning as you wake, lies in wait in the familiar routines of the day, takes you by surprise. Does it still?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that's right. And another friend of mine who suffered from depression said, if you haven't had depression, you don't have any idea what it's like. This was a Roman Catholic friend of min"}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 37, "text": "Why don't we take a short break here? And then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Claire Tomalin. She's a biographer who's written books about Mary Wollstonecraft, the early feminist, and Charles Dickens. Her new memoir is called \"A Life Of My Own.\" We're going to take a short break. Then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think writing the book has helped. A lot of people have written to me about that passage, people who've lost someone they loved, and said, yes, that is how it is and sort of sharing with people the "}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 38, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Claire Tomalin. She was a longtime book reviewer and editor for publications in England, and then she became a full-time biographer. Her biographies include books about Charles Dickens and the early feminist Mary Wollstonecraft. Now she has a memoir called \"A Life Of My Own.\" So, you know, we've talked a lot about raising your family and about your first marriage, which had a lot of rocky periods. And then your husband was killed while covering the Yom Kippur War. He was killed by a heat-seeking missile, a Syrian missile. At the age of 60, you remarried to the playwright Michael Frayn, who's best known for - in America, anyways, I think he's best known for \"Noises Off.\" He was married when you started seeing each other, and you write you tried to end it several times. But finally, his wife was understanding, and they separated. And you married Michael Frayn. Since you had been through your husband having so many affairs and then coming back to you, what was it like for you to be the woman who was having the affair with a married man?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think writing the book has helped. A lot of people have written to me about that passage, people who've lost someone they loved, and said, yes, that is how it is and sort of sharing with people the "}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 39, "text": "I don't know if this is anything you can crystallize, but I was wondering if you could talk about the quality of love as an older woman, compared to the quality of love in your 20s when you married your first husband. And I ask that in part because, like, sexual lust isn't - do you know what I mean? - isn't part of the equation in the same way when you get married when you're 60, as it is when you get married...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's a very good question. Of course, it was very difficult and painful. And it went on for quite a long time. And as I say, we tried to stop seeing each other. We went through all sorts of pr"}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 40, "text": "...In your 20s.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm not sure that I would..."}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 41, "text": "OK, fair enough.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 42, "text": "That's a very interesting answer", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think sexual love is very fundamental - is a very important part of life. And for me, I was certainly - in some ways, more important when I was 60 than when I was 20."}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 43, "text": ". So you're 85 now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think sexual love is very fundamental - is a very important part of life. And for me, I was certainly - in some ways, more important when I was 60 than when I was 20."}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 44, "text": "Your book strikes me as a very honest book. I don't really know you, so I'm not the best judge. But as a reader", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 45, "text": "- as a reader, it strikes me as an honest book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 46, "text": "Yeah. And I'm wondering if that level of honesty is something that you feel freer to have in your mid-80s now. Like, you know who you are now. You know what your life has been. You don't have to impress anybody. You don't have to worry about your reputation. It's already made.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's certainly meant to be an honest book, yes."}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 47, "text": "I want to quote you again - \"when you have seen many of your friends and family die, it is not so hard to think calmly about your own coming death. You will be following the path they have already taken. You need no belief in an afterlife to feel comforted by that thought.\" Why do you find that thought comforting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do feel that. And also, to be brutally honest, of course, a great many of the people I'm writing about, they're all dead, so they can't answer back. They can't say, oh, you've got that wrong, Claire"}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 48, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That I'd be following after those who died before me?"}
{"id": "767164845", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Claire Tomalin", "title": "Claire Tomalin Moves 'Between The Trivial And The Tragic' In 'A Life Of My Own'", "question_index": 49, "text": "Well, Claire Tomalin, it's really been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much. And I'm glad you decided to write your own story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's not logical because I think when you die, you cease to exist. But all the same, you can't help thinking that by the time you reach my age, 85, so many people you love have died, you can't h"}
{"id": "767167014", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Jessye Norman", "title": "Remembering Celebrated Operatic Soprano Jessye Norman", "question_index": 0, "text": "That was my guest Jessye Norman. Jessye Norman, how were you exposed to opera when you were a child?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing in German)."}
{"id": "767167014", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Jessye Norman", "title": "Remembering Celebrated Operatic Soprano Jessye Norman", "question_index": 1, "text": "I bet your friends did think you were weird because most kids listened to pop music and not to opera.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was exposed to opera as a child first by hearing opera on the radio. I was and still am a devoted fan of those Texaco broadcasts of the Metropolitan Opera live on Saturdays, and I spent a great deal"}
{"id": "767167014", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Jessye Norman", "title": "Remembering Celebrated Operatic Soprano Jessye Norman", "question_index": 2, "text": "You didn't take singing lessons when you were young.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course, and certainly then as well, listening very much to pop and sort of to Elvis Presley and all of these things, you know, that one was sort of meant to love. And I was very fond of symphonic m"}
{"id": "767167014", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Jessye Norman", "title": "Remembering Celebrated Operatic Soprano Jessye Norman", "question_index": 3, "text": "What an interesting perspective for parents to have because I think...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I didn't. Very fortunately, I didn't have singing lessons until I went to university, and that was just a lucky thing. Somehow, my parents understood and really wanted me to go on singing as a chi"}
{"id": "767167014", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Jessye Norman", "title": "Remembering Celebrated Operatic Soprano Jessye Norman", "question_index": 4, "text": "...In fact, a lot of children are musically ruined but the obligation of lessons.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "767167014", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Jessye Norman", "title": "Remembering Celebrated Operatic Soprano Jessye Norman", "question_index": 5, "text": "When you got older and wanted to start auditioning...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, precisely. But my parents were certainly my earliest fans. I've always said that, but they were not - I didn't at all have a stage mother. I mean, I didn't have a mom who had wanted to sing at so"}
{"id": "767167014", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Jessye Norman", "title": "Remembering Celebrated Operatic Soprano Jessye Norman", "question_index": 6, "text": "...For scholarships...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "767167014", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Jessye Norman", "title": "Remembering Celebrated Operatic Soprano Jessye Norman", "question_index": 7, "text": "...For colleges, were you aware of how few black singers had actually gained acceptance in the opera world?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "767167014", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Jessye Norman", "title": "Remembering Celebrated Operatic Soprano Jessye Norman", "question_index": 8, "text": "A lot of black singers end up having to sing \"Porgy And Bess\" a lot because it's the opera where black singers...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I knew that there were few, but I didn't think that there was any justification for it, and therefore, it wasn't something that I worried about or something that, in my own mind, held me back be"}
{"id": "767167014", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Jessye Norman", "title": "Remembering Celebrated Operatic Soprano Jessye Norman", "question_index": 9, "text": "...Are most...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "767167014", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Jessye Norman", "title": "Remembering Celebrated Operatic Soprano Jessye Norman", "question_index": 10, "text": "...Readily cast.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course."}
{"id": "767167014", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Jessye Norman", "title": "Remembering Celebrated Operatic Soprano Jessye Norman", "question_index": 11, "text": "Did you go through that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "767167014", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Jessye Norman", "title": "Remembering Celebrated Operatic Soprano Jessye Norman", "question_index": 12, "text": "It seems like almost a rite of passage for black singers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I've never sung..."}
{"id": "767167014", "date": "2019-10-04", "guest": "Jessye Norman", "title": "Remembering Celebrated Operatic Soprano Jessye Norman", "question_index": 13, "text": "Jessye Norman, it's really been a pleasure to meet you. I want to thank you very much for being with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it certainly has been a rite of passage for a lot of singers, and they've done incredibly well outside of the music of Gershwin, you know, after having had a platform on which they could be hear"}
{"id": "769301883", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "Aaron Paul Didn't Think His 'Breaking Bad' Character Would Live This Long", "question_index": 0, "text": "Aaron Paul, welcome to FRESH AIR. I love that scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Jesse Pinkman) Yeah. I mean, I used to until you killed him."}
{"id": "769301883", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "Aaron Paul Didn't Think His 'Breaking Bad' Character Would Live This Long", "question_index": 1, "text": "And I love the way your former chemistry teacher, who's now your partner cooking meth, is lecturing you about your lack of motivation the way only a teacher could.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much."}
{"id": "769301883", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "Aaron Paul Didn't Think His 'Breaking Bad' Character Would Live This Long", "question_index": 2, "text": "So your character, Jesse, was supposed to be killed off in the first season of \"Breaking Bad.\" How did you find out...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much."}
{"id": "769301883", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "Aaron Paul Didn't Think His 'Breaking Bad' Character Would Live This Long", "question_index": 3, "text": "...That your character was doomed? When did you learn that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "769301883", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "Aaron Paul Didn't Think His 'Breaking Bad' Character Would Live This Long", "question_index": 4, "text": "This is the creator, Vince Gilligan.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't learn that until the - towards the end of the first season. And Vince - we were at lunch. And Vince is..."}
{"id": "769301883", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "Aaron Paul Didn't Think His 'Breaking Bad' Character Would Live This Long", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. This is creator Vince Gilligan - calls me over. And he's, you know, eating with all the writers. And he goes, I want to tell you something. And I go, what's that? And he goes, you know, original"}
{"id": "769301883", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "Aaron Paul Didn't Think His 'Breaking Bad' Character Would Live This Long", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's been an amazing past year and a half."}
{"id": "769301883", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "Aaron Paul Didn't Think His 'Breaking Bad' Character Would Live This Long", "question_index": 7, "text": "Well, when I interviewed Vince Gilligan, he basically said he couldn't imagine the series without you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, you know, you have a huge career ahead of you. And so they'd always joke around about it. They kind of slowed down this fourth season. But we'll see. Who knows? I mean, this kid could die at any "}
{"id": "769301883", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "Aaron Paul Didn't Think His 'Breaking Bad' Character Would Live This Long", "question_index": 8, "text": "But that - he also made it clear that's no guarantee.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I love that man. How nice is he?"}
{"id": "769301883", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "Aaron Paul Didn't Think His 'Breaking Bad' Character Would Live This Long", "question_index": 9, "text": "So - but, you know, that kind of uncertainty, I could see that being a little helpful because Jesse's never sure how long he's going to live. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I love that man. How nice is he?"}
{"id": "769301883", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "Aaron Paul Didn't Think His 'Breaking Bad' Character Would Live This Long", "question_index": 10, "text": "...Why should you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "769301883", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "Aaron Paul Didn't Think His 'Breaking Bad' Character Would Live This Long", "question_index": 11, "text": "Jesse's changed so much in the course of the now four seasons of the show. And, you know, he starts off really small-time. You know, he's almost, like, still a kid. And now he's involved with this big drug ring and - where there's a lot of violence, a lot of money. At the end of Season 3 - last season - Walt is afraid that the head of the drug ring is going to kill him as soon as Walt has finished training his assistant cook, a man named Gale, in how to prepare the meth recipe. And if the drug - head of the drug ring kills Walt, he'll probably kill Jesse, too. So Walt thinks the only hope is to have Jesse kill this assistant meth cook, Gale. So he convinces Jesse that Jesse has to murder the assistant cook. And so you, Jesse, kill Gale. And then you just really become dead inside afterwards. So you kill him. You're dead inside. You start using meth again. And then you end up going to your support group - your drug support group. You want to confess that you've killed a man, but you can't confess that. So you make up a story that you've killed a dog. And here's a clip from that scene in the support group.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Exactly. That's true, yeah."}
{"id": "769301883", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "Aaron Paul Didn't Think His 'Breaking Bad' Character Would Live This Long", "question_index": 12, "text": "And then members of the support group try to comfort Jesse. And one of them says, oh, well, the dog was suffering. Putting him down was a kindness. Then when Jesse says, that's not what happened, the woman in the group assumes, oh, the dog must have bitten someone, so you did the right thing. And then you say it wasn't that. And then another person in the group assumes, like, well, you must have started using meth again. And that took you to the dark side because that's what meth does. And everybody's trying to help you justify killing this dog. And you know that there's really no justification for what you've done, which is killing a man. So let's pick up the scene from there. And the leader of the support group speaks first.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Jesse Pinkman) No. I put him down. I watched him go. I was looking him straight in the eye. And, you know, he didn't know what was happening. He didn't know why. He was just scared, and then he wa"}
{"id": "769301883", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "Aaron Paul Didn't Think His 'Breaking Bad' Character Would Live This Long", "question_index": 13, "text": "That's my guest, Aaron Paul, as Jesse Pinkman in a scene from this season of \"Breaking Bad.\" You are so lost at this point in the storyline. Do you feel like the character you're playing now is different from the character you started playing on \"Breaking Bad\" because so much has happened to him, he's changed so much?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Jesse Pinkman) About time."}
{"id": "769301883", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "Aaron Paul Didn't Think His 'Breaking Bad' Character Would Live This Long", "question_index": 14, "text": "And murder really isn't in his nature.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, 100%. He's - he is so broken now. I mean, he was a lost kid at the beginning of the series, you know, just kind of struggling to find his way. But he was content with a dime-bagging it, you know, "}
{"id": "769301883", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "Aaron Paul Didn't Think His 'Breaking Bad' Character Would Live This Long", "question_index": 15, "text": "But he's had to do it. And he has to live with the consequences of that. Did you have to figure out, who is Jesse without the drugs and the poses?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "769301883", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "Aaron Paul Didn't Think His 'Breaking Bad' Character Would Live This Long", "question_index": 16, "text": "What makes you the opposite of Jesse Pinkman?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. I really - you know, joining this series, obviously, I had no idea where this character was going. And I didn't really have much of a backstory. But as the seasons have gone on, I feel lik"}
{"id": "769301883", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "Aaron Paul Didn't Think His 'Breaking Bad' Character Would Live This Long", "question_index": 17, "text": "He wouldn't accept that hug anyways", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I feel like I have my life together, really. And Jesse just seems like he's constantly just struggling to keep his head above water. And he's just this, you know, messed up kid trying to find his way."}
{"id": "769301883", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "Aaron Paul Didn't Think His 'Breaking Bad' Character Would Live This Long", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I feel like I have my life together, really. And Jesse just seems like he's constantly just struggling to keep his head above water. And he's just this, you know, messed up kid trying to find his way."}
{"id": "769301883", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "Aaron Paul Didn't Think His 'Breaking Bad' Character Would Live This Long", "question_index": 19, "text": "You've taken a lot of punishment in the series. You've been beaten in a lot of very imaginative ways. What are some examples of the worst beatings you've taken in the series?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2011 interview with Aaron Paul, Emmy-winning costar of the TV drama series \"Breaking Bad.\" A sequel to that series, a movie called \"El Camino,\" premieres t"}
{"id": "769301883", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "Aaron Paul Didn't Think His 'Breaking Bad' Character Would Live This Long", "question_index": 20, "text": "Oh, oh, really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, wow. Well, some of the worst beatings really came at the very beginning, which was done by a character - name of Tuco, this guy played by Raymond Cruz. And he's just this very loud, violent drug d"}
{"id": "769301883", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "Aaron Paul Didn't Think His 'Breaking Bad' Character Would Live This Long", "question_index": 21, "text": "I thought you meant the character thinks you're acting. You mean the actor thinks you were just acting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. I got a..."}
{"id": "769301883", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "Aaron Paul Didn't Think His 'Breaking Bad' Character Would Live This Long", "question_index": 22, "text": "Would you have problems watching scenes like when you're beaten up or scenes when your face has been beaten to a pulp? Do you watch yourself in those scenes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, no, the - Raymond Cruz thought that I was still just in the moment. But then there was a point where he picks me up, puts me on his shoulders. And he's going to slam me against the wall. And I t"}
{"id": "769301883", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "Aaron Paul Didn't Think His 'Breaking Bad' Character Would Live This Long", "question_index": 23, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do, yeah. I mean, I'll watch it when the show airs, you know, whether it being if I fly home to Idaho, and I'm with my family. They'll - you know, they have a \"Breaking Bad\" night every week. And so"}
{"id": "769301883", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "Aaron Paul Didn't Think His 'Breaking Bad' Character Would Live This Long", "question_index": 24, "text": "Whoa", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I come from a huge, huge, loving family. And they've been supportive since - you know, from day one. And so my parents are - you know, they're still madly in love. It's their 40th anniversary coming u"}
{"id": "769301883", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "Aaron Paul Didn't Think His 'Breaking Bad' Character Would Live This Long", "question_index": 25, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I come from a huge, huge, loving family. And they've been supportive since - you know, from day one. And so my parents are - you know, they're still madly in love. It's their 40th anniversary coming u"}
{"id": "769301883", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "Aaron Paul Didn't Think His 'Breaking Bad' Character Would Live This Long", "question_index": 26, "text": "So you're obviously very different from the Jesse Pinkman character that you play on \"Breaking Bad.\" In fact, you know, he's a meth head. You grew up in Idaho. Your father is a Baptist minister, yes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Throw a huge party. Yeah. They throw a huge party every Sunday night. So that's pretty great."}
{"id": "769301883", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "Aaron Paul Didn't Think His 'Breaking Bad' Character Would Live This Long", "question_index": 27, "text": "What was his preaching like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yeah. Yeah. He's actually retired. He doesn't have a church he does every week anymore. But he still does, you know, weddings and funerals and sometimes will guest speak at some churches. But yea"}
{"id": "769301883", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "Aaron Paul Didn't Think His 'Breaking Bad' Character Would Live This Long", "question_index": 28, "text": "Left Idaho and left home?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was great. It was inspiring, really. I mean, he would get up in front of all these people and kind of just get lost in the moment, as well. And I think that's where I take - not that I'm saying he "}
{"id": "769301883", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "Aaron Paul Didn't Think His 'Breaking Bad' Character Would Live This Long", "question_index": 29, "text": "I wonder if there was any pressure on you to be the good kid because you were, like, the son of the minister, and if so, if acting was a kind of, like, release valve for that because you could be all the people that you weren't allowed to be.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Left Idaho - yeah. I left Idaho at 17. You know, I graduated high school a year early and just - you know, the typical story - packed up my car and moved out."}
{"id": "769301883", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "Aaron Paul Didn't Think His 'Breaking Bad' Character Would Live This Long", "question_index": 30, "text": "When you left home at age 17 - which, as you point out, is really young - did your parents...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2011 interview with Aaron Paul, Emmy-winning co-star of the TV drama series \"Breaking Bad.\" A made-for-TV sequel to that series called \"El Camino: A Breaki"}
{"id": "769301883", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "Aaron Paul Didn't Think His 'Breaking Bad' Character Would Live This Long", "question_index": 31, "text": "...Try to, like, bar the door and do everything in their power to prevent you from going and telling you that you were making a huge mistake that you would always regret, that you were throwing your life away and throwing away everything that they had ever done to help you in life, et cetera?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "769301883", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "Aaron Paul Didn't Think His 'Breaking Bad' Character Would Live This Long", "question_index": 32, "text": "Well, they must find a lot of faith in you and in your ability to follow through on the dream.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know what? Not at all. It was quite the opposite. I always had the plan of moving to LA. They knew I always wanted to do this. And I think really in eighth grade, I made it certain just to let my "}
{"id": "769301883", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "Aaron Paul Didn't Think His 'Breaking Bad' Character Would Live This Long", "question_index": 33, "text": "So you get to LA, and then what? You don't know anybody there. You don't...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, no, it was - and, you know, obviously, I couldn't have done this without them. And it's incredible. I'm very, very blessed."}
{"id": "769301883", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "Aaron Paul Didn't Think His 'Breaking Bad' Character Would Live This Long", "question_index": 34, "text": "You have your car. It's packed up. What then? What?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. No. I know."}
{"id": "769301883", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "Aaron Paul Didn't Think His 'Breaking Bad' Character Would Live This Long", "question_index": 35, "text": "Aaron Paul, it's been great to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...A giant bank robbery. And it ended in crazy bloodshed. And my mom is, like, oh, my God. Where am I allowing my son to move to? But she - you know, she got on a plane and went back to Idaho. And I'm"}
{"id": "769312766", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "'Breaking Bad' Creator Vince Gilligan Reflects On Meth And Morals", "question_index": 0, "text": "Well, Vince Gilligan, welcome to FRESH AIR. In the scene we just heard, Jesse asked the question that you, the creator the show, had to answer, which is, why would a straight-laced chemistry teacher start cooking meth? How did you come up with a storyline of the chemistry teacher who, faced with probably terminal cancer, starts cooking meth to support his family to have money for them when he dies and to cover his own medical expenses?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Jesse Pinkman) It's weird is all, OK? It doesn't compute. Listen. If you've gone crazy or something - I mean, if you've gone crazy or depressed, I'm just saying, that's something I need to know ab"}
{"id": "769312766", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "'Breaking Bad' Creator Vince Gilligan Reflects On Meth And Morals", "question_index": 1, "text": "Well, you know, the implication in \"Breaking Bad\" is that if you got a medical death sentence that you would have the potential of totally changing your life and your personality and doing things you never would have dreamed of doing before. Have you asked yourself that question, whether - if you got a diagnosis like Walt gets at the beginning of lung cancer if you would become a different person?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you for having me. I'm not sure where the idea for the show came from. I remember the exact moment in which the idea hit me. But as to where the idea came from, I'm not quite sure. I suspe"}
{"id": "769312766", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "'Breaking Bad' Creator Vince Gilligan Reflects On Meth And Morals", "question_index": 2, "text": "Heck, no", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have asked myself that question a lot. I certainly would hope - and I assume I would not do anything illegal like Walt does. But..."}
{"id": "769312766", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "'Breaking Bad' Creator Vince Gilligan Reflects On Meth And Morals", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have asked myself that question a lot. I certainly would hope - and I assume I would not do anything illegal like Walt does. But..."}
{"id": "769312766", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "'Breaking Bad' Creator Vince Gilligan Reflects On Meth And Morals", "question_index": 4, "text": "Early in the series, Walt, the chemistry teacher, and Jesse, the meth head, have to kill a couple of meth distributors who have been trying to kill them. And one of these guys is still alive after the attack. So they take him to Jesse's basement, chain him up and then have to figure out what to do with him. And Walt is torn between his instincts of wanting to help this, like, suffering man who's, like, wounded and maybe dying and hungry and thirsty. He's torn between wanting to help him and wanting to kill him. Killing is not in Walt's nature, at least not yet. And he makes a list of reasons why he should let this man live and reasons why he should kill him. And I want to read that list. Under let him live, he writes, it's the moral thing to do - won't be able to live with yourself. He may listen to reason. Murder is wrong - exclamation point - Judeo-Christian principles. You are not a murderer. Then under reasons to kill him, there's only one reason. He'll kill your entire family if you let him go. And so Walt kills him. But I love the idea of Walt being such, like, a reasonable man, such a kind of studious man that he'd make a list. Were you in on writing that scene?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". There's a - but, you know, there's a time-honored - it's a time-honored story, in fact. And in some sense, the Kurosawa movie \"Ikiru,\" if I'm pronouncing that right - and my apologies to Japanese-sp"}
{"id": "769312766", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "'Breaking Bad' Creator Vince Gilligan Reflects On Meth And Morals", "question_index": 5, "text": "So why - did you see Walt as, like - here's a kind of man who, even faced with, like - this man who he has to kill is in the basement - he's going to make a list.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- that was a fun list to make up. That was - the one I particularly liked was Judeo-Christian principles."}
{"id": "769312766", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "'Breaking Bad' Creator Vince Gilligan Reflects On Meth And Morals", "question_index": 6, "text": "Vince Gilligan speaking to Terry Gross in 2011 - more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He is that - to me, that is the heart of the show. This is a man. This is - it's very much a fish-out-of-water story. And unlike, say, Tony Soprano, who was a character - a man who was born into a lif"}
{"id": "769312766", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "'Breaking Bad' Creator Vince Gilligan Reflects On Meth And Morals", "question_index": 7, "text": "So in the first season, Walt is really not a killer, but he's kind of forced to kill or else be killed. But as time goes on, he kind of becomes a killer. He kills again. He orders killings. I mean, he becomes a really bad man. And I want to play another clip. In this scene, his wife Skyler, who's played by Anna Gunn, she knows that he's cooking meth and that he makes a lot of money, although she has no idea yet quite how much money. And she knows he's in danger. And she thinks - she's trying to convince him he should go to the police and explain that he's a good man. He got into the meth business because he was dying. He needed money for his family. He meant well. He's not really a bad guy. And this is the scene.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2011 interview with Vince Gilligan, creator of the AMC series \"Breaking Bad.\" He's the writer and director of \"El Camino: A Breaking Bad Movie,\" which prem"}
{"id": "769312766", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "'Breaking Bad' Creator Vince Gilligan Reflects On Meth And Morals", "question_index": 8, "text": "Very, very chilling scene, and the best example of how Walt's changed. Although Walt is a little delusional because he is in great danger. He's not only the one who knocks. He's the one who's in danger of getting knocked off.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Walter White) Who are you talking to right now? Who is it you think you see? Do you know how much I make a year? I mean, even if I told you, you wouldn't believe it. You know what would happen if "}
{"id": "769312766", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "'Breaking Bad' Creator Vince Gilligan Reflects On Meth And Morals", "question_index": 9, "text": "But you've said in the past that you see \"Breaking Bad\" as an experiment to see if you can take a Mr. Chips teacher kind of character and turn him into Scarface. Done. I mean, you know, Walt has really become a bad man. He's a killer. Once you accomplish that feat of turning Mr. Chips into Scarface, did you have to figure out what next, now what do I do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "769312766", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "'Breaking Bad' Creator Vince Gilligan Reflects On Meth And Morals", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, Vince Gilligan thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a very good question. And we have 16 more episodes in Season 5 in which to discover that. But this show very much was something of an experiment. And I thought it might be fun or interesting to"}
{"id": "769312766", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "'Breaking Bad' Creator Vince Gilligan Reflects On Meth And Morals", "question_index": 11, "text": "Can I just say something about the voice that you do as Jesse?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Vince Gilligan, creator of \"Breaking Bad,\" speaking to Terry Gross in 2011. His movie sequel to \"Breaking Bad\" called \"El Camino\" premieres today on Netflix. After a break, we'll hear from Aaron Paul,"}
{"id": "769312766", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "'Breaking Bad' Creator Vince Gilligan Reflects On Meth And Morals", "question_index": 12, "text": "There's something about the voice that Jesse always seems to be on the verge of, like, complaining or whining or feeling put upon. It's like he's still a teenager. You know what I mean? It's like still his parents are nagging him or his teacher's nagging him. That's his kind of, like, posture in the world a lot of the time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "769312766", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "'Breaking Bad' Creator Vince Gilligan Reflects On Meth And Morals", "question_index": 13, "text": "Is that what you've been trying for vocally?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, yeah. It's true."}
{"id": "769312766", "date": "2019-10-11", "guest": "Aaron Paul", "title": "'Breaking Bad' Creator Vince Gilligan Reflects On Meth And Morals", "question_index": 14, "text": "Yeah. Yeah. That's a great - yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. No, I mean, I just - I see Jesse as this kid that still hasn't found his footing, you know. And I love that he, you know, he's - he still calls Walter White Mr. White."}
{"id": "770620299", "date": "2019-10-16", "guest": "Taika Waititi", "title": "Filmmaker Taika Waititi On Satirizing Nazis In 'Jojo Rabbit'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The new film \"Jojo Rabbit\" won the People's Choice Award at the Toronto International Film Festival. My guest Taika Waititi wrote, directed and co-stars in the film. He may be best known for directing the hit Marvel film \"Thor: Ragnarok.\" Waititi's earlier films are set in New Zealand where he's from. That's where he first started doing comedy with Jemaine Clement and Bret McKenzie, who became known in the U.S. for the HBO comedy series \"Flight Of The Conchords.\" Waititi is part Maori, the indigenous Polynesians of New Zealand, and part Jewish. His new film \"Jojo Rabbit\" is a satire about a 10-year-old boy named Jojo in Nazi Germany who has just become part of the Hitler Youth Organization. He's being indoctrinated to hate Jews and taught how to kill with knives guns and grenades. Insecure and lonely, he's created an imaginary version of Hitler, who he turns to for guidance and reassurance. After he's accused of being a coward, because he refused to kill a rabbit as part of his Hitler Youth Training, he talks to his imaginary Hitler, who's played by Waititi.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "770620299", "date": "2019-10-16", "guest": "Taika Waititi", "title": "Filmmaker Taika Waititi On Satirizing Nazis In 'Jojo Rabbit'", "question_index": 1, "text": "One day, when Jojo is alone at home, he's shocked and terrified to find a teenage girl behind one of the walls. At first, he thinks she's a ghost. But then he learned she's a Jew who is being hidden from the Nazis by Jojo's mother. Jojo has to figure out how to respond. Taika Waititi, welcome to FRESH AIR. I have the novel...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Jojo) Oh, no thanks. I don't smoke."}
{"id": "770620299", "date": "2019-10-16", "guest": "Taika Waititi", "title": "Filmmaker Taika Waititi On Satirizing Nazis In 'Jojo Rabbit'", "question_index": 2, "text": "...Your movie - hi", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hi."}
{"id": "770620299", "date": "2019-10-16", "guest": "Taika Waititi", "title": "Filmmaker Taika Waititi On Satirizing Nazis In 'Jojo Rabbit'", "question_index": 3, "text": ". I have the novel your movie is based on sitting right next to me. I haven't read the whole thing. I've read parts of it. It is by no means a comedy. Why did you decide to take this novel and take a lot of liberties with it but also turn it into a comedy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hi."}
{"id": "770620299", "date": "2019-10-16", "guest": "Taika Waititi", "title": "Filmmaker Taika Waititi On Satirizing Nazis In 'Jojo Rabbit'", "question_index": 4, "text": "He's being indoctrinated as a member of - as a new member of Hitler Youth. And you could see how kids are - you know, a comedic version of how kids are indoctrinated. But for him - for the boy - for the 10-year-old boy, it's kind of like he's in, like, the Bill Murray movie \"Meatballs,\" which is this kind of, like, wild and crazy summer camp where kids are bullied and everybody's crazy. So I was wondering if you were thinking about that at all.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because I don't really know how to do the straight drama and have no real interest in doing that. I think there are plenty of filmmakers who do it very well. And I don't think we need another depressi"}
{"id": "770620299", "date": "2019-10-16", "guest": "Taika Waititi", "title": "Filmmaker Taika Waititi On Satirizing Nazis In 'Jojo Rabbit'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Yeah. So you were watching documentaries on Hitler Youth, but I'm bringing up meatballs, so yeah", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wasn't thinking about \"Meatballs,\" but I did watch a lot of documentaries, and it's pretty much exactly what had happened..."}
{"id": "770620299", "date": "2019-10-16", "guest": "Taika Waititi", "title": "Filmmaker Taika Waititi On Satirizing Nazis In 'Jojo Rabbit'", "question_index": 6, "text": ". But - so what did you see? What did you see?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wasn't thinking about \"Meatballs,\" but I did watch a lot of documentaries, and it's pretty much exactly what had happened..."}
{"id": "770620299", "date": "2019-10-16", "guest": "Taika Waititi", "title": "Filmmaker Taika Waititi On Satirizing Nazis In 'Jojo Rabbit'", "question_index": 7, "text": "I see.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Most of the things in the film are taken from reality, so the stuff - all the stuff on the - in the Hitler Youth camps and - the - you know, with the training and everything. They throw knives at tree"}
{"id": "770620299", "date": "2019-10-16", "guest": "Taika Waititi", "title": "Filmmaker Taika Waititi On Satirizing Nazis In 'Jojo Rabbit'", "question_index": 8, "text": "You cast yourself as Hitler in \"Jojo Rabbit.\" Why did you take that role for yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And early 2000s. And they talked to a lot of the people who were in the camps. And - yeah - and the interesting thing that those people were saying is that when, you know, when they went into these"}
{"id": "770620299", "date": "2019-10-16", "guest": "Taika Waititi", "title": "Filmmaker Taika Waititi On Satirizing Nazis In 'Jojo Rabbit'", "question_index": 9, "text": "You're not the perfect representation of Aryan blood", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when I was writing - I mean, if you're to look at me, you - I'm not the obvious choice to play Adolf Hitler in anything."}
{"id": "770620299", "date": "2019-10-16", "guest": "Taika Waititi", "title": "Filmmaker Taika Waititi On Satirizing Nazis In 'Jojo Rabbit'", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when I was writing - I mean, if you're to look at me, you - I'm not the obvious choice to play Adolf Hitler in anything."}
{"id": "770620299", "date": "2019-10-16", "guest": "Taika Waititi", "title": "Filmmaker Taika Waititi On Satirizing Nazis In 'Jojo Rabbit'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm not, by no means, an Aryan-looking person."}
{"id": "770620299", "date": "2019-10-16", "guest": "Taika Waititi", "title": "Filmmaker Taika Waititi On Satirizing Nazis In 'Jojo Rabbit'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Let me re-introduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest the screenwriter, director and actor Taika Waititi. And he wrote and directed and co-stars in the new film, \"Jojo Rabbit.\" We're going to take a short break, and we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But when I was writing the film, I had no intention of playing that role for obvious reasons. And Fox Searchlight got in touch and said, we really - we've always loved the script. We really want to ma"}
{"id": "770620299", "date": "2019-10-16", "guest": "Taika Waititi", "title": "Filmmaker Taika Waititi On Satirizing Nazis In 'Jojo Rabbit'", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is screenwriter, director and actor Taika Waititi. And his new film is called \"Jojo Rabbit,\" and it's about a 10-year-old boy in Nazi Germany who becomes a member of the Hitler Youth Organization and is indoctrinated. Meanwhile, his mother, who is not a Nazi sympathizer, who opposes the Nazis, is sheltering - is hiding - a teenage girl in the crawlspace of their home. The boy who plays the 10-year-old boy in the film - Roman Griffin Davis is the name of the actor - is really just terrific. He's so expressive. And his eyes are so big and round, and they register pain and enthusiasm and fear, like, so well. How do you cast a 10-year-old? Like, what's an audition like for a 10-year-old so that you can really see not only how they perform on screen but if they can handle the stress of carrying a movie because he's on camera most of the time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But when I was writing the film, I had no intention of playing that role for obvious reasons. And Fox Searchlight got in touch and said, we really - we've always loved the script. We really want to ma"}
{"id": "770620299", "date": "2019-10-16", "guest": "Taika Waititi", "title": "Filmmaker Taika Waititi On Satirizing Nazis In 'Jojo Rabbit'", "question_index": 14, "text": "So you mentioned - you referred to the American child acting thing. What do you think about when you say that? Like, what are you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in my opinion, you don't actually have to do much in the auditions with them. You just you just get them to do it. And you can work out pretty fast whether or not they're intelligent enough or i"}
{"id": "770620299", "date": "2019-10-16", "guest": "Taika Waititi", "title": "Filmmaker Taika Waititi On Satirizing Nazis In 'Jojo Rabbit'", "question_index": 15, "text": "I think I do, but I'm going to get you to say it anyways", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "770620299", "date": "2019-10-16", "guest": "Taika Waititi", "title": "Filmmaker Taika Waititi On Satirizing Nazis In 'Jojo Rabbit'", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "770620299", "date": "2019-10-16", "guest": "Taika Waititi", "title": "Filmmaker Taika Waititi On Satirizing Nazis In 'Jojo Rabbit'", "question_index": 17, "text": "You were nominated for an Oscar a few years ago for a short that you'd done. And you know how it works at the Oscars. They name each person who's nominated. As that person is named, the camera closes in, like, zooms in on that person. So as your film was named and then the camera moves over to see you, you're sleeping, or you act like you're sleeping. I mean, the whole thing was a joke. But did the Oscars people and did the camera person and the director know you were going to be doing that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, all this kind of acting where you shake your hands to, like, you know, to just really, like, show that you mean something and, like, you know, do all this, you know, gesticulation when you'r"}
{"id": "770620299", "date": "2019-10-16", "guest": "Taika Waititi", "title": "Filmmaker Taika Waititi On Satirizing Nazis In 'Jojo Rabbit'", "question_index": 18, "text": "It was funny. What kind of reaction did you get from the people who were running the show - from the director and the camera person? Were they - like, did they get it was a joke right away, or were they worried that you were actually sleeping?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no one knew I was going to do that. I'd mentioned it at - you know, I think everyone thought it was a joke. I'd mentioned it a few nights before to the other nominees. And I said, oh, wouldn't it "}
{"id": "770620299", "date": "2019-10-16", "guest": "Taika Waititi", "title": "Filmmaker Taika Waititi On Satirizing Nazis In 'Jojo Rabbit'", "question_index": 19, "text": "Any regrets?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't get to talk to any of the people from the show or anything like that. We just - you know, I just did that. And then the show was over. And then everyone left. But in New Zealand, there were, "}
{"id": "770620299", "date": "2019-10-16", "guest": "Taika Waititi", "title": "Filmmaker Taika Waititi On Satirizing Nazis In 'Jojo Rabbit'", "question_index": 20, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "770620299", "date": "2019-10-16", "guest": "Taika Waititi", "title": "Filmmaker Taika Waititi On Satirizing Nazis In 'Jojo Rabbit'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Taika Waititi, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Never."}
{"id": "770620299", "date": "2019-10-16", "guest": "Taika Waititi", "title": "Filmmaker Taika Waititi On Satirizing Nazis In 'Jojo Rabbit'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Taika Waititi wrote, directed and co-stars in the new film \"Jojo Rabbit.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me."}
{"id": "770620299", "date": "2019-10-16", "guest": "Taika Waititi", "title": "Filmmaker Taika Waititi On Satirizing Nazis In 'Jojo Rabbit'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Gilbert Gaul, author of \"The Geography Of Risk: Epic Storms, Rising Seas, And The Cost Of America's Coasts.\" He investigates the role of developers in creating risky housing and how federal subsidies encourage coastal development in spite of the obvious risks and then pay for rebuilding when disaster strikes. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me."}
{"id": "770620299", "date": "2019-10-16", "guest": "Taika Waititi", "title": "Filmmaker Taika Waititi On Satirizing Nazis In 'Jojo Rabbit'", "question_index": 24, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our senior producer today as Roberta Shorrock. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our associate producer for digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Therese Madden directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me."}
{"id": "770936400", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Anita O'Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The Centenary Of The Birth Of Jazz Singer Anita O'Day", "question_index": 0, "text": "Throughout your career, you've always not wanted to be the, quote, \"girl singer,\" the person who's accompanied by the band, accompanied by the orchestra. You've always said you wanted your voice to be part of the band.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're celebrating the centennial of the birth of jazz singer Anita O'Day. Let's listen to the interview Terry recorded with her in 1987."}
{"id": "770936400", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Anita O'Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The Centenary Of The Birth Of Jazz Singer Anita O'Day", "question_index": 1, "text": "Would you explain some of the things that you did and didn't want as a singer with a band?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "770936400", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Anita O'Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The Centenary Of The Birth Of Jazz Singer Anita O'Day", "question_index": 2, "text": "Uh-huh (ph).", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- nothing wrong with that one. The band work is really very simple work. It's called pattern work. And you mostly sing quarter notes, and the band fills with patterns - (singing) pleasure, you're abou"}
{"id": "770936400", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Anita O'Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The Centenary Of The Birth Of Jazz Singer Anita O'Day", "question_index": 3, "text": "You have a very unique voice, and physically one of the reasons for part of the uniqueness of your singing is that you don't have a uvula, which is that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it's called pattern work. And then, well, after Gene Krupa orchestra for five years and Stan Kenton for one year - this is a few years back - I decided that I would like to try for a small group, w"}
{"id": "770936400", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Anita O'Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The Centenary Of The Birth Of Jazz Singer Anita O'Day", "question_index": 4, "text": "I did read your book. What - can you tell us about how you lost your uvula? And I should say that that's the little fleshy overhang in the back of your mouth.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, you read my book. I can tell."}
{"id": "770936400", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Anita O'Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The Centenary Of The Birth Of Jazz Singer Anita O'Day", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's that little thing that hangs down in the back of the throat. When you see the cartoons, and it shows they're singing, and that little thing's going, la-a-a-a-a (ph), well, that's gone."}
{"id": "770936400", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Anita O'Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The Centenary Of The Birth Of Jazz Singer Anita O'Day", "question_index": 6, "text": "During the tonsillectomy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was in the hospital for just regular big tonsils or something. I think it was 7 years old. And my mother said - years later, I said, you know, I want to be a singer. And what - and I've really got a"}
{"id": "770936400", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Anita O'Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The Centenary Of The Birth Of Jazz Singer Anita O'Day", "question_index": 7, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, during the, like, you know, tonsillectomy, right."}
{"id": "770936400", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Anita O'Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The Centenary Of The Birth Of Jazz Singer Anita O'Day", "question_index": 8, "text": "How did that change your singing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's how that went down."}
{"id": "770936400", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Anita O'Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The Centenary Of The Birth Of Jazz Singer Anita O'Day", "question_index": 9, "text": "Before you even sang professionally, you picked up some money in walkathons...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "because you find a way to do it because where there's a will, you know."}
{"id": "770936400", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Anita O'Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The Centenary Of The Birth Of Jazz Singer Anita O'Day", "question_index": 10, "text": "...And dance marathons during the Depression.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "770936400", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Anita O'Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The Centenary Of The Birth Of Jazz Singer Anita O'Day", "question_index": 11, "text": "Did you have an endurance record? Do you remember what your record was for number of hours danced or walked?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "770936400", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Anita O'Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The Centenary Of The Birth Of Jazz Singer Anita O'Day", "question_index": 12, "text": "That's a lot. Do you think this was good practice for being on the road", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was in six contests, and I came in four out of six contests. And the longest one I was in that I can remember, Red Skelton was the night emcee. And June Haver was in the show, and Frankie Lain"}
{"id": "770936400", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Anita O'Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The Centenary Of The Birth Of Jazz Singer Anita O'Day", "question_index": 13, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was in six contests, and I came in four out of six contests. And the longest one I was in that I can remember, Red Skelton was the night emcee. And June Haver was in the show, and Frankie Lain"}
{"id": "770936400", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Anita O'Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The Centenary Of The Birth Of Jazz Singer Anita O'Day", "question_index": 14, "text": "You used to sing duets with trumpeter Roy Eldridge. Was there any resistance at that time - and this is the early 1940s - to having a black performer and a white performer singing duets on the same stage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "770936400", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Anita O'Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The Centenary Of The Birth Of Jazz Singer Anita O'Day", "question_index": 15, "text": "There were negative reactions from the audience or from the club owners? Who caused the problems?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it - there was some - something going on out there. Didn't bother me. I'm from Chicago. I went to colored schools. You know, that didn't bother me. When we played the South, it was reall"}
{"id": "770936400", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Anita O'Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The Centenary Of The Birth Of Jazz Singer Anita O'Day", "question_index": 16, "text": "You played with several other big band leaders in addition to Krupa. You performed briefly with Benny Goodman, and you described him as a bandleader who always tried to distract attention from the performers so that - why? So that they wouldn't take attention away from him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In the South, it was just the people for him to get into the theater, let alone perform. You know, in New York City, there was no problem."}
{"id": "770936400", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Anita O'Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The Centenary Of The Birth Of Jazz Singer Anita O'Day", "question_index": 17, "text": "How would he do it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, that was just his style. I don't think he did it maliciously. That - you know, that was just his way."}
{"id": "770936400", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Anita O'Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The Centenary Of The Birth Of Jazz Singer Anita O'Day", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "770936400", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Anita O'Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The Centenary Of The Birth Of Jazz Singer Anita O'Day", "question_index": 19, "text": "You describe Stan Kenton as being incapable of swinging.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "770936400", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Anita O'Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The Centenary Of The Birth Of Jazz Singer Anita O'Day", "question_index": 20, "text": "You've had a lot of hard drinking in your time, and you've also done a lot of drugs in your time. Do you think that your involvement with alcohol and drugs had anything to do with wanting to keep up with the men and wanting to be as tough as they were?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, Stan couldn't swing. I mean, I love Stan, and I love his upbeats. And he was the artistry and rhythm, and that's funny because when I was with the band, I was there for a year. I sat on the stag"}
{"id": "770936400", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Anita O'Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The Centenary Of The Birth Of Jazz Singer Anita O'Day", "question_index": 21, "text": "You started smoking grass when you were 12 or 13 years old, and that was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a good question. I never thought about it that way. No, I do it because I enjoy it. You know, everybody has their things, and that's what I do. You know, I didn't want to have a family. I didn'"}
{"id": "770936400", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Anita O'Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The Centenary Of The Birth Of Jazz Singer Anita O'Day", "question_index": 22, "text": "That's the amazing thing, you know? It's hard for me to think of a time before...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It wasn't against the law then, Terry."}
{"id": "770936400", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Anita O'Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The Centenary Of The Birth Of Jazz Singer Anita O'Day", "question_index": 23, "text": "...Marijuana was illegal. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That it was not against the law."}
{"id": "770936400", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Anita O'Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The Centenary Of The Birth Of Jazz Singer Anita O'Day", "question_index": 24, "text": "There was a period of, I guess, close to 15 years when you were using heroin and still performing most of that time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, I didn't look for it. Just the people that were going my way - that's what they were doing, you know?"}
{"id": "770936400", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Anita O'Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The Centenary Of The Birth Of Jazz Singer Anita O'Day", "question_index": 25, "text": "You were convicted several times on drug charges. How difficult did that make it for you to get bookings in certain cities that had...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "True."}
{"id": "770936400", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Anita O'Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The Centenary Of The Birth Of Jazz Singer Anita O'Day", "question_index": 26, "text": "Seriously? It helped? I can't tell if you're kidding or not.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "770936400", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Anita O'Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The Centenary Of The Birth Of Jazz Singer Anita O'Day", "question_index": 27, "text": "Did that make you pretty angry?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I'm not getting. That's showbiz. It does. It helps you. They come to look at the girl that went to jail for smoking dope. Man, I'd work at club, and they'd be standing out down the street around t"}
{"id": "770936400", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Anita O'Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The Centenary Of The Birth Of Jazz Singer Anita O'Day", "question_index": 28, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It didn't make me angry. Business was great."}
{"id": "770936400", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Anita O'Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The Centenary Of The Birth Of Jazz Singer Anita O'Day", "question_index": 29, "text": "How did you finally kick after doing drugs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Come on. Where were you?"}
{"id": "770936400", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Anita O'Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The Centenary Of The Birth Of Jazz Singer Anita O'Day", "question_index": 30, "text": "Did you have to almost relearn how to sing straight after you'd been performing high for so many years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I went to Hawaii. I went to Hawaii, and I didn't know anybody in Hawaii. And when you get the chills, I just laid in the hot sun, and when you get the sweats, I jumped in the water. I did it for f"}
{"id": "770936400", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Anita O'Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The Centenary Of The Birth Of Jazz Singer Anita O'Day", "question_index": 31, "text": "I recently had the opportunity to see a movie that I suspect a lot of our listeners have seen, \"Jazz On A Summer's Day,\" which was a performance at the Newport Jazz Festival.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. You kind of have to work around it. Right. That's why I went back to this nostalgia thing. It's because I'd been doing bebop and whatever else, and so I went back to before that time, and th"}
{"id": "770936400", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Anita O'Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The Centenary Of The Birth Of Jazz Singer Anita O'Day", "question_index": 32, "text": "You wearing these great white gloves in it - these, like, I think wrist-high white gloves - and it's very sharp-looking. I don't know how many women were actually wearing those gloves back in 1958, but how did you decide to wear them? I think it almost became a trademark for a while.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I was feeling no pain that day."}
{"id": "770936400", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Anita O'Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The Centenary Of The Birth Of Jazz Singer Anita O'Day", "question_index": 33, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I went to George Wein, who was the promoter of the whole thing. And I said, what night am I on?, because it was Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday nights. And he says to me, oh, you're on Sunday after"}
{"id": "770936400", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Anita O'Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The Centenary Of The Birth Of Jazz Singer Anita O'Day", "question_index": 34, "text": "Oh, goodness.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry? Terry, are you there? Yeah, that's what happened, love."}
{"id": "770936400", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Anita O'Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The Centenary Of The Birth Of Jazz Singer Anita O'Day", "question_index": 35, "text": "OK. Well, I want to thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was it."}
{"id": "770936400", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Anita O'Day", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The Centenary Of The Birth Of Jazz Singer Anita O'Day", "question_index": 36, "text": "Yep.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I want to thank you for even considering me. It's very nice of you to bring me forward to all the listening fans of your age, and I appreciate it. Thank you, Terry, and my best to FRESH AIR. Is "}
{"id": "770969577", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Robert Forster", "title": "Remembering 'Jackie Brown' Actor Robert Forster", "question_index": 0, "text": "Now, it was \"Jackie Brown\" that really revived your career, the Quentin Tarantino movie. Had you seen Quentin Tarantino's earlier films? I know he'd seen your work, and that's why he wrote the part of the bail bondsman for you, but had you seen his work?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies in for Terry Gross. Actor Robert Forster, best remembered as the bail bondsman in the Quentin Tarantino film \"Jackie Brown,\" died last Friday in Los Angeles. He was "}
{"id": "770969577", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Robert Forster", "title": "Remembering 'Jackie Brown' Actor Robert Forster", "question_index": 1, "text": "So you didn't get the part in that after all?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Strangely, when my career was at its lowest and I had been doing, you know, dopey exploitation movies for a few different guys who would hire me - Bill Lustig was one of them, and Fred Williamso"}
{"id": "770969577", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Robert Forster", "title": "Remembering 'Jackie Brown' Actor Robert Forster", "question_index": 2, "text": "Did you feel like you should be talking him out of it because you felt washed up? Do you know what I mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I didn't even get close to it. This picture was made with real people, real stars. Then about a year later or so, my agent called me - when I had one - who said, I've got - there's a guy you're go"}
{"id": "770969577", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Robert Forster", "title": "Remembering 'Jackie Brown' Actor Robert Forster", "question_index": 3, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't feel washed - no, I - you know, listen. I knew that if I hung in there long enough - I had a long-shot strategy, and that was that someday, some kid who liked me growing up would turn into a "}
{"id": "770969577", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Robert Forster", "title": "Remembering 'Jackie Brown' Actor Robert Forster", "question_index": 4, "text": "It worked.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "How do you like that?"}
{"id": "770969577", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Robert Forster", "title": "Remembering 'Jackie Brown' Actor Robert Forster", "question_index": 5, "text": "Well, let me play a scene from \"Jackie Brown.\" This is a scene from early on. You're a bail bondsman, and Samuel Jackson, who has lived a life of crime, is coming to you to get a bail bond for Jackie Brown.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, yeah. It worked."}
{"id": "770969577", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Robert Forster", "title": "Remembering 'Jackie Brown' Actor Robert Forster", "question_index": 6, "text": "That's Samuel L. Jackson and my guest Robert Forster in a scene from \"Jackie Brown,\" a film by Quentin Tarantino. You know, one of the things I love about this film is this part of the story between you and Pam Grier, who's your female co-star in the movie. And it's a great love story because you never know if she's really on the level, and also, it's a real, like, middle-aged love story, you know? She's middle-aged. You're middle-aged. And it's also interracial love story, and it really works. What did you think the odds were that when you were coming out of this long phase where you weren't getting work, you'd get this kind of leading man role? And it's not leading man role in the sense that, you know, it's, like, James Bond or, you know, the hunk.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Ordell Robbie) Oh, it's like that, huh?"}
{"id": "770969577", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Robert Forster", "title": "Remembering 'Jackie Brown' Actor Robert Forster", "question_index": 7, "text": "It's real. Exactly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it's better than that. It was real."}
{"id": "770969577", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Robert Forster", "title": "Remembering 'Jackie Brown' Actor Robert Forster", "question_index": 8, "text": "It has so much feeling in it. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was human, and it was believable stuff."}
{"id": "770969577", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Robert Forster", "title": "Remembering 'Jackie Brown' Actor Robert Forster", "question_index": 9, "text": "There's a kind of air of depression and loneliness that hangs over your character in \"Jackie Brown.\" And I'd just be interested in hearing what you did to get in the right frame of mind for the role.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, and that is sort of what Elmore Leonard is about - real characters. He has affection for his characters. They're human, and even if they're bad guys, he has affection for them and knows that"}
{"id": "770969577", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Robert Forster", "title": "Remembering 'Jackie Brown' Actor Robert Forster", "question_index": 10, "text": "During that period when you weren't making - working much, you were still making some movies. And some of them sound like they were, you know, real cheap films, like \"Satan's Princess\" and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, boy. Listen - you know, I must have asked myself 400 times, are you going to survive this Bob? Are you going to be able to save the house? Are you going to get the kids through college? Are you go"}
{"id": "770969577", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Robert Forster", "title": "Remembering 'Jackie Brown' Actor Robert Forster", "question_index": 11, "text": "Was it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, what a cutie that was."}
{"id": "770969577", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Robert Forster", "title": "Remembering 'Jackie Brown' Actor Robert Forster", "question_index": 12, "text": "What are some of the other titles from that period?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, what a cutie that was."}
{"id": "770969577", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Robert Forster", "title": "Remembering 'Jackie Brown' Actor Robert Forster", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, boy. Oh, boy. There were some - you know, there's a series - if you look on the Internet, it used to be on - I think they've taken them off now, but for a couple of years after \"Jackie Brown,\" the"}
{"id": "770969577", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Robert Forster", "title": "Remembering 'Jackie Brown' Actor Robert Forster", "question_index": 14, "text": "You actually started your career with a splash. In 1969, you were the star of \"Medium Cool,\" and you played a - you know, a TV cameraman.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview with actor Robert Forster, who died last week at the age of 78. Forster's career began strong in the late '60s but stalled out for decades until "}
{"id": "770969577", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Robert Forster", "title": "Remembering 'Jackie Brown' Actor Robert Forster", "question_index": 15, "text": "It was set in the present. In fact, there were - more or less the present. There were scenes that were actually shot at the demonstrations at the Chicago convention and inside the Chicago convention. Were there things about the movie that surprised you, such as having to film in the context of the real Democratic convention?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "770969577", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Robert Forster", "title": "Remembering 'Jackie Brown' Actor Robert Forster", "question_index": 16, "text": "He directed you in \"Reflections In A Golden Eye.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This movie was one of my great learning experiences. Up until then, I didn't realize that an actor might be called upon to improvise. There was an awful lot of this movie that was improvised, and I ha"}
{"id": "770969577", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Robert Forster", "title": "Remembering 'Jackie Brown' Actor Robert Forster", "question_index": 17, "text": "One of the things you had to do in \"Medium Cool\" was be naked", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, my first picture. I met him in a hotel room. I arrived from L.A. I had read the book, \"Reflections In A Golden Eye.\" I showed up. I walked into the lobby of this hotel. And I looked around, and e"}
{"id": "770969577", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Robert Forster", "title": "Remembering 'Jackie Brown' Actor Robert Forster", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, my first picture. I met him in a hotel room. I arrived from L.A. I had read the book, \"Reflections In A Golden Eye.\" I showed up. I walked into the lobby of this hotel. And I looked around, and e"}
{"id": "770969577", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Robert Forster", "title": "Remembering 'Jackie Brown' Actor Robert Forster", "question_index": 19, "text": "How did you feel about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh."}
{"id": "770969577", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Robert Forster", "title": "Remembering 'Jackie Brown' Actor Robert Forster", "question_index": 20, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know - OK, here comes the first thing. Oh, what a - what a funny thing this was. I got the script to \"Reflections In A Golden Eye.\" That's where it started. And I read this thing, and here it says"}
{"id": "770969577", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Robert Forster", "title": "Remembering 'Jackie Brown' Actor Robert Forster", "question_index": 21, "text": "A little bit of cover.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So I remember the day I was in Rome. And when I came out to the set, and here was an Italian extra riding around the horse naked, and I thought to myself, gee, that's supposed to be me. And I wa"}
{"id": "770969577", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Robert Forster", "title": "Remembering 'Jackie Brown' Actor Robert Forster", "question_index": 22, "text": "You know, I read that your father, before World War II, was - worked with Ringling Bros. Circus as an elephant trainer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...My modesty, yes. And, of course, it unpeeled immediately. So you know what? I said, Bob, if you don't give yourself permission to do this, then why do it? After that, in \"Medium Cool,\" it wasn't th"}
{"id": "770969577", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Robert Forster", "title": "Remembering 'Jackie Brown' Actor Robert Forster", "question_index": 23, "text": "That's really nice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was on the Ringling, yeah. Oh, what a good guy this guy is. I remember when I went to him - at the end of my senior year at the University of Rochester, I went to him. And I said, Dad - I said, you"}
{"id": "770969577", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Robert Forster", "title": "Remembering 'Jackie Brown' Actor Robert Forster", "question_index": 24, "text": "Just a question about your accent. I always assumed you were from Chicago. Maybe that's because I saw you in the movie adaptation of David Mamet's \"Lakeboat.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is a good, good guy."}
{"id": "770969577", "date": "2019-10-18", "guest": "Robert Forster", "title": "Remembering 'Jackie Brown' Actor Robert Forster", "question_index": 25, "text": "Are there times when you feel that really works for you and other times when you feel you should play it down?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm from Rochester, which is a Great Lakes accent. So Rochester, Buffalo, Erie - not Detroit so much - but Chicago, and almost all those cities have a similar accent, a long A. I know I sound that way"}
{"id": "772215896", "date": "2019-10-22", "guest": "Liz Sly", "title": "U.S. Withdrawal From Syria Leaves A 'Tangled Mess,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. President Trump's order to pull out U.S. troops from the Kurdish-controlled area of Syria along the Turkish border has left our allies, the Kurds, feeling betrayed, and it's throwing the region deeper into chaos. My guest Liz Sly has been covering the Syrian civil war since it started in 2011. She's now The Washington Post's Beirut bureau chief. She's also served as The Post's Baghdad bureau chief and has reported from Africa, China and Afghanistan. She's briefly in the U.S. to accept an award tonight for courage in journalism from the International Women's Media Foundation. The citation reads, described as the dean of Middle Eastern correspondents, Sly's decades in journalism have rendered her fearless, despite constant government surveillance, immense personal risk and incessant surrounding violence. Since 2011, Sly has covered the war in Syria as the preeminent journalistic authority on the conflict. We recorded our interview yesterday. Ms. Sly, welcome to FRESH AIR, and congratulations on the award you're receiving. I know you've been traveling in the States for the past couple of days. But starting from the time that the U.S. pulled out its forces from the Kurd-controlled area of Syria, how have you been able to get any handle on what's going on there? It's not safe to be there.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "772215896", "date": "2019-10-22", "guest": "Liz Sly", "title": "U.S. Withdrawal From Syria Leaves A 'Tangled Mess,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 1, "text": "Where have the Kurds been fleeing to? Is there a safe place for them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yes. We're in touch with a lot of people there. There are many wonderful ordinary people there who we talked to and who share information about what's happening with this. And the SDF, the main "}
{"id": "772215896", "date": "2019-10-22", "guest": "Liz Sly", "title": "U.S. Withdrawal From Syria Leaves A 'Tangled Mess,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 2, "text": "But if the Kurds stay, would they survive?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there really isn't a safe place for them because the area along the border that has been targeted mostly by shell fire - the Turks have actually gone into a very small - a small-ish area between"}
{"id": "772215896", "date": "2019-10-22", "guest": "Liz Sly", "title": "U.S. Withdrawal From Syria Leaves A 'Tangled Mess,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 3, "text": "My understanding is that the Turks are really looking to organize a demographic change to remove the Kurds from the border region and replace them with Syrians who had crossed the border into Turkey during the Syrian civil war - bring those Syrians back across the border from Turkey into Syria. What are the odds that the Turks will really do that, do you think?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "At the moment, it's very, very complicated. I don't think many Kurds will be feeling particularly keen on staying in that 86-, 90-mile area that's targeted by the Turkish invasion. But we're not sure "}
{"id": "772215896", "date": "2019-10-22", "guest": "Liz Sly", "title": "U.S. Withdrawal From Syria Leaves A 'Tangled Mess,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 4, "text": "So the Kurds think that we betrayed them. After Erdogan told Trump that Turkey was going to send troops across the border into Syria, into the Kurdish-controlled part of Syria, Trump decided to remove our troops, abandoning the Kurds. Is there a geopolitical or tactical or military explanation that makes sense to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's so complicated. What you're looking at is an Arab-Kurdish conflict over those areas and that Turkish-Kurd conflict over the areas across the border that dates back for decades, centuries. Some of"}
{"id": "772215896", "date": "2019-10-22", "guest": "Liz Sly", "title": "U.S. Withdrawal From Syria Leaves A 'Tangled Mess,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 5, "text": "You mean, like, if the Turks came across the border into Syria, as they said on October 6 that they were going to do, then American troops would have been facing Turkish troops?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's very interesting because if you talk to the actual Kurdish officials, they will not say they were betrayed, and that's for two reasons. One is that they are still hoping the U.S. will do so"}
{"id": "772215896", "date": "2019-10-22", "guest": "Liz Sly", "title": "U.S. Withdrawal From Syria Leaves A 'Tangled Mess,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 6, "text": "The Kurds basically had their own territory in the area of Syria on the border of Turkey. Why is Turkey so afraid of Kurds being on the border?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, in principle. Now, I am not sure it ever would have come to that. I think Erdogan called Trump's bluff, and he took it. I don't think it makes sense for the U.S. to have a long-term indefinite pr"}
{"id": "772215896", "date": "2019-10-22", "guest": "Liz Sly", "title": "U.S. Withdrawal From Syria Leaves A 'Tangled Mess,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 7, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Liz Sly. She is The Washington Post Beirut bureau chief. She's in the U.S. briefly to accept a courage in journalism award from the International Women's Media Foundation. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What Turkey is really concerned about is any kind of Kurdish state entity on its border would almost inevitably, after it had established itself and got going, the Kurds of Turkey who are just across "}
{"id": "772215896", "date": "2019-10-22", "guest": "Liz Sly", "title": "U.S. Withdrawal From Syria Leaves A 'Tangled Mess,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Liz Sly, who's been based in the Middle East in one form or another, covering one country or another, since around 1982. She's in the U.S. briefly to receive a courage in journalism award from the International Women's Media Foundation. She's the Beirut bureau chief for The Washington Post, and she's covered the Syrian civil war since it started in 2011. In Syria now with Syria and the Kurds and Turkey, there are such complicated alliances. Turkey is fighting the Kurds. We were aligned with the Kurds. The Kurds were fighting our enemy, ISIS. Now the Kurds are starting to see Russia and even Syria as their protectors against Turkey. They think we've betrayed them. We oppose the Syrian regime. Russia is our foe. When we were backing the Kurds, it was Turkey that was threatening the Kurds. Turkey is our ally. So it's just so tangled. I don't know what my question is, but if you can talk about all the complications of those alliances between U.S. friends and foes in that area and how that's even becoming more complicated now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What Turkey is really concerned about is any kind of Kurdish state entity on its border would almost inevitably, after it had established itself and got going, the Kurds of Turkey who are just across "}
{"id": "772215896", "date": "2019-10-22", "guest": "Liz Sly", "title": "U.S. Withdrawal From Syria Leaves A 'Tangled Mess,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 9, "text": "So do you think President Trump basically handed a victory to Iran and Russia, as well as Turkey? Turkey is our ally. They're a member of NATO. How allied they are with us is unclear. But Iran and Russia are definitely not our allies.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is such a tangled mess. It is actually incredibly hard to write your stories about this in a way that will become - will come across as coherent to somebody who's not following it on a microscopic "}
{"id": "772215896", "date": "2019-10-22", "guest": "Liz Sly", "title": "U.S. Withdrawal From Syria Leaves A 'Tangled Mess,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 10, "text": "So Americans have been focused on our troops' pullout from the Kurdish-controlled area of Turkey and what that's going to mean. But in the larger Syrian civil war, what is the state of that now? Has the government virtually won?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And Turkey is becoming increasingly close to Iran and Russia. Russia has set up a diplomatic process, called the Astana Process, which is an alliance of Turkey, Iran and Russia. And it's Russia's goal"}
{"id": "772215896", "date": "2019-10-22", "guest": "Liz Sly", "title": "U.S. Withdrawal From Syria Leaves A 'Tangled Mess,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 11, "text": "That the Kurds had been in.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. The government has won. Assad has won. He's not threatened in Damascus. The rebellion is, to all intents and purposes, over. The rebels still control a corner of the northwest of the country arou"}
{"id": "772215896", "date": "2019-10-22", "guest": "Liz Sly", "title": "U.S. Withdrawal From Syria Leaves A 'Tangled Mess,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 12, "text": "That he's getting this third of the country back without any fight because the American troops are pulling out. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Almost - yes. Almost without a fight. You know, I mean I think he can't believe his luck."}
{"id": "772215896", "date": "2019-10-22", "guest": "Liz Sly", "title": "U.S. Withdrawal From Syria Leaves A 'Tangled Mess,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 13, "text": "So Assad is the victor of the war, and he now has control over a country that he has helped to destroy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, he's been threatening to fight for that corner for ages. But his army really doesn't have the capacity at the moment to take on that big area, and especially not with Americans standing behind"}
{"id": "772215896", "date": "2019-10-22", "guest": "Liz Sly", "title": "U.S. Withdrawal From Syria Leaves A 'Tangled Mess,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 14, "text": "Are there things that you think can accidentally go wrong right now in Syria, Turkey, Iraq, leading to a bigger war involving the U.S.?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I think a lot of Syrians, whether they're with him or not, are aware that this country they're living in was basically destroyed because one man would rather drop a lot of bombs on people, on civ"}
{"id": "772215896", "date": "2019-10-22", "guest": "Liz Sly", "title": "U.S. Withdrawal From Syria Leaves A 'Tangled Mess,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 15, "text": "My guest is Liz Sly, The Washington Post's Beirut bureau chief. Tonight she'll receive an award for courage in journalism from the International Women's Media Foundation. We'll talk about the dangers faced by journalists reporting on conflicts after we take a short break. And Maureen Corrigan will review Daniel Mendelsohn's new collection of essays, \"Ecstasy And Terror: From The Greeks To 'Game Of Thrones'.\" I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that is the danger. I think that the U.S. has signaled very clearly it doesn't want to get involved in any other war at all. The troops went there to fight ISIS. They're only going to fight ISIS"}
{"id": "772215896", "date": "2019-10-22", "guest": "Liz Sly", "title": "U.S. Withdrawal From Syria Leaves A 'Tangled Mess,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Liz Sly, The Washington Post's Beirut bureau chief. She's been covering the Syrian civil war since it began in 2011, and she's been reporting on the impact of the U.S. withdrawal from the Kurdish-controlled area of Syria along the Turkish border. But for the past couple of days she's been in the U.S. to accept an award for courage in journalism from the International Women's Media Foundation. The citation says, Sly's decades in journalism have rendered her fearless despite constant government surveillance, immense personal risk and incessant surrounding violence. Sly formerly served as the Post's Baghdad bureau chief and has reported from Africa, China and Afghanistan. You're getting an award for courage in journalism. It seems to me it would take a lot of courage just to try to get into Syria to cover what's been going on there since 2011, and you've been in Syria how many times since the Civil War started?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that is the danger. I think that the U.S. has signaled very clearly it doesn't want to get involved in any other war at all. The troops went there to fight ISIS. They're only going to fight ISIS"}
{"id": "772215896", "date": "2019-10-22", "guest": "Liz Sly", "title": "U.S. Withdrawal From Syria Leaves A 'Tangled Mess,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 17, "text": "That's a lot. To the extent that you can tell us, how do you even get in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I'm not sure - a couple of dozen, maybe."}
{"id": "772215896", "date": "2019-10-22", "guest": "Liz Sly", "title": "U.S. Withdrawal From Syria Leaves A 'Tangled Mess,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 18, "text": "So you'd get into the Kurdish-controlled part of Syria through the Turkish border?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one of the big frustrations of covering the Syrian war has been how hard it is to access the country. In the first year or so I was able to visit Damascus and get visas from the Syrian governmen"}
{"id": "772215896", "date": "2019-10-22", "guest": "Liz Sly", "title": "U.S. Withdrawal From Syria Leaves A 'Tangled Mess,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 19, "text": "I would imagine you know a lot of Kurds who were living near the Turkish border who have since fled or who are living there still but are very uncertain about what the future looks like. Are you still in touch with them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, the Turkish border has been completely sealed for maybe five years now. It's an impossibility. The only way in is from Iraq, and you get on a little boat and go across the Tigris River, which take"}
{"id": "772215896", "date": "2019-10-22", "guest": "Liz Sly", "title": "U.S. Withdrawal From Syria Leaves A 'Tangled Mess,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 20, "text": "And are they - are you finding this out through texts, through social media? Like, what's your way of staying in touch?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I've been in touch with a few people there over these past weeks. They're all absolutely heartbroken that America's leaving. They see that they achieved something here. They achieved a peaceful, "}
{"id": "772215896", "date": "2019-10-22", "guest": "Liz Sly", "title": "U.S. Withdrawal From Syria Leaves A 'Tangled Mess,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 21, "text": "You talked about how difficult it has been to get into the Kurdish-controlled part - into what was then the Kurdish-controlled part of Syria. Tell us a little bit about what that journey is like.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The whole of the Middle East is on WhatsApp all the time. Everybody's in groups. Everybody's chatting. Yeah, WhatsApp is the mode of communication in the Middle East."}
{"id": "772215896", "date": "2019-10-22", "guest": "Liz Sly", "title": "U.S. Withdrawal From Syria Leaves A 'Tangled Mess,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 22, "text": "A while ago you had tweeted a photo of a Syrian child's body washed up on a Syrian beach, and you were criticized, you know, for, you know, showing a dead child, for - you were criticized that maybe the child's death was being exploited. And you, in response, talked about how many dead children, how many mutilated bodies of children that you'd seen in the years you were covering the Syrian civil war. And I was wondering if you could talk about that a little bit, about the toll that the war has taken on children.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You fly into Irbil, which is the capital of the Iraqi Kurdistan region, drive a few hours north, get to this little sort of hut by the river. And there's some Iraqi Kurdish officials there who make yo"}
{"id": "772215896", "date": "2019-10-22", "guest": "Liz Sly", "title": "U.S. Withdrawal From Syria Leaves A 'Tangled Mess,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 23, "text": "You said you spent a lot of your days looking at photos of dead and mutilated children. Is this through social media?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I didn't even think twice about tweeting that photograph, and as you said, some people said, oh, you know, it's disrespectful to spread around these photographs of dead children. But to tell you "}
{"id": "772215896", "date": "2019-10-22", "guest": "Liz Sly", "title": "U.S. Withdrawal From Syria Leaves A 'Tangled Mess,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 24, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Liz Sly. She's the Beirut bureau chief for The Washington Post. She's covered the Syrian civil war since it started in 2011. She's in the U.S. to get an award for courage in journalism from the International Women's Media Foundation. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. The Syrian war is the social media war. It's not the only social media war, but the explosion of social media and the Syrian war kind of coincided with each - with one another. And this is a war "}
{"id": "772215896", "date": "2019-10-22", "guest": "Liz Sly", "title": "U.S. Withdrawal From Syria Leaves A 'Tangled Mess,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 25, "text": "My guest is Liz Sly, the Beirut bureau chief for The Washington Post. She's covering the entire region. She's covered the Syrian civil war since 2011. She's in the U.S. to receive a Courage in Journalism Award from the International Women's Media Foundation. You started reporting as a freelancer. And you started, I believe, in Beirut. Was that during the civil war?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. The Syrian war is the social media war. It's not the only social media war, but the explosion of social media and the Syrian war kind of coincided with each - with one another. And this is a war "}
{"id": "772215896", "date": "2019-10-22", "guest": "Liz Sly", "title": "U.S. Withdrawal From Syria Leaves A 'Tangled Mess,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 26, "text": "So what was it like for you as a freelancer without the backup and security that, you know, a newspaper or TV network can - to be out there on your own, inexperienced, covering a civil war?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was during the civil war, yes."}
{"id": "772215896", "date": "2019-10-22", "guest": "Liz Sly", "title": "U.S. Withdrawal From Syria Leaves A 'Tangled Mess,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 27, "text": "What were some of the things you did then that you think were foolish?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I look back on it, and I really was very stupid. And I'm quite lucky to be here. Now that I have the support of a newspaper, I can't imagine going through, again, the things that I went through t"}
{"id": "772215896", "date": "2019-10-22", "guest": "Liz Sly", "title": "U.S. Withdrawal From Syria Leaves A 'Tangled Mess,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 28, "text": "So in 2012, you were contacted by a freelance reporter named Austin Tice, who asked your advice. He was covering the civil war in Syria. And you told him it wasn't a good idea to stay in Syria very long. Tell us what happened to him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, just living alone in situations where there was very frequently shelling in your neighborhoods. And you would have to hide, and people were being snatched off the streets. And - as hostages, t"}
{"id": "772215896", "date": "2019-10-22", "guest": "Liz Sly", "title": "U.S. Withdrawal From Syria Leaves A 'Tangled Mess,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 29, "text": "A hundred-thirty journalists have been killed in Syria. What's left of the Syrian press?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yes, the story of Austin Tice is, you know, one of the big tragedies for journalism of this war. I mean, he went there with no experience, crossed into Syria and wanted to start reporting. He co"}
{"id": "772215896", "date": "2019-10-22", "guest": "Liz Sly", "title": "U.S. Withdrawal From Syria Leaves A 'Tangled Mess,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 30, "text": "So you're based in Beirut in Lebanon. And there have been, like, massive protests there now against government corruption. There's a big financial crisis in Lebanon. The government recently declared a state of economic emergency. So tell us a little bit about what's going on there now and how that fits into the larger pattern of the region.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the Syrian press is a kind of evolving concept, if you like. The official government Syrian press has always been completely state-controlled. It's not free. It doesn't report freely. It just pa"}
{"id": "772215896", "date": "2019-10-22", "guest": "Liz Sly", "title": "U.S. Withdrawal From Syria Leaves A 'Tangled Mess,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 31, "text": "Is the fact that it's not divisive what leaves room for optimism, considering how badly so much of the Arab Spring turned out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. What's going on in Lebanon is extraordinary. It all erupted just as I was leaving, and I have missed it all, but I have been glued to the social media where it's playing out. Hour by hour, everyb"}
{"id": "772215896", "date": "2019-10-22", "guest": "Liz Sly", "title": "U.S. Withdrawal From Syria Leaves A 'Tangled Mess,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 32, "text": "Well, Liz Sly, I want to thank you for talking with us. Congratulations on your award for courage in journalism, and thank you for being courageous enough to do the reporting that you do.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yes. I mean, Lebanon and Iraq in particular are societies that are very starkly organized around sectarianism. The government positions are distributed according to sect. Make sure that the Shia"}
{"id": "772215896", "date": "2019-10-22", "guest": "Liz Sly", "title": "U.S. Withdrawal From Syria Leaves A 'Tangled Mess,' Journalist Says", "question_index": 33, "text": "Liz Sly is The Washington Post's Beirut bureau chief. Tonight she receives an award for courage in journalism from the International Women's Media Foundation. After we take a short break, Maureen Corrigan will review Daniel Mendelsohn's new collection of essays \"Ecstasy And Terror: From The Greeks To 'Game Of Thrones'.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And thank you for having me."}
{"id": "773371999", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 0, "text": "Tom Perrotta, welcome back to FRESH AIR. I want to ask you to start by reading from the very beginning of \"Mrs. Fletcher.\"", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, editor of the website TV Worth Watching, sitting in for Terry Gross. Today's first guest is author Tom Perrotta, whose recent novel, \"Mrs. Fletcher,\" is being d"}
{"id": "773371999", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 1, "text": "That's Tom Perrotta reading from his new novel, \"Mrs. Fletcher.\" So I love that you have these two parallel transitions - mother's transition - the single mother's transition when her son is leaving for college and his transition when he is the one who's leaving. And there's so many points in this book where I think he's being so oblivious to her needs. And I thought back to", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) It was a long drive. And Eve cried most of the way home because the big day hadn't gone the way she'd hoped - not that big days ever did. Birthdays, holidays, weddings, graduations, funerals"}
{"id": "773371999", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 2, "text": "myself when I left for college. I wasn't thinking about my parents' needs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) It was a long drive. And Eve cried most of the way home because the big day hadn't gone the way she'd hoped - not that big days ever did. Birthdays, holidays, weddings, graduations, funerals"}
{"id": "773371999", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 3, "text": "I didn't ask them, how do you feel now that I'm leaving home? It never would have occurred to me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "773371999", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 4, "text": "Exactly. And that's part of the point of your book - the mother's story is not set. Like, she's questioning who she is. She's questioning her sexual orientation. She's questioning what kind of life she wants to have, how she should shake up her life. So what got you thinking about these two parallel transitions - the mother's and the son's - and how you could kind of join them together?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, you think - you assume they're all right. Their stories are set, and you're the one who's on the adventure."}
{"id": "773371999", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 5, "text": "Another thing that really sets off the story - it's on that day that she's about to drive him to college for his first day there. The girlfriend who her son has broken up with comes over for a visit. So the mother, Eve, goes out to get gas before driving him to college. When she returns, she hears that they're engaged in a sexual act. And he's giving her - her son is giving his girlfriend - really, his ex-girlfriend - these crude sexual commands about what to do to him, calling her the B-word. And Eve is just, like, appalled. Like, she's an enlightened woman. Like, she hates this language. She hates everything it stands for. And she doesn't know how to have that conversation with him and certainly doesn't want to have it with him on the day that they're parting, that he's going to college. But she wants him to begin college with the understanding that there's a difference between sexual relationships in real life and the soulless encounter he presumably watches on the Internet. So what made you think about that? Does that come out of your life, too, of wanting to make sure that your children weren't learning crude, condescending ways of speaking to their boyfriend or girlfriend, from - either learning it from friends, from television, from porn, whatever?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the first part of it is, I think, that I've been kind of tracking my own life in my fiction. So when my kids were little and on the playground, I wrote \"Little Children\" based on those experienc"}
{"id": "773371999", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 6, "text": "So, you know, she's assuming her son watches porn. And then once he's out of the house, she starts watching a lot of porn. And would you describe the kind of porn she's especially interested in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it - I just think it's a really interesting and peculiar moment in American culture because on the one hand, there is this kind of crudeness in the way that we talk. And on the other hand, there"}
{"id": "773371999", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 7, "text": "And she's surprised to find herself watching lesbian porn.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, she receives an anonymous text that applies a certain label to her, which you and I have agreed to say - she's a sexy mom, a mom who is sexually desirable. People will know the acronym. An"}
{"id": "773371999", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 8, "text": "In the sexy mother category of lesbian porn, you describe it as often beginning with a reluctant woman grumpily washing dishes or mopping the floor, when the doorbell rings. And then a more confident woman arrives with a bottle of wine and a bit of exposed cleavage, and then the action begins. Did you watch a lot of this before writing the novel?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. You know, she samples the menu, which is vast. And at a certain point, she settles on this lesbian porn as - you know, she's never thought of herself in this way, but this porn turns her on, and "}
{"id": "773371999", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 9, "text": "And then in contrasting that with her son, he grows up in a boy culture where date rape doesn't seem like it's necessarily wrong to the boys. And if you're a guy who tries to intervene and stop date sexual harassment or date rape, you're going to be bullied for it, and it makes it very confusing for the boys, I think. And I'd like to know what you were thinking about when you were writing this character who is kind of subscribing to that kind of behavior and language and not really understanding what's wrong with it, even though he grows up in a family that wouldn't tolerate that kind of behavior.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I watched enough to write the novel. Yeah, I did. And it was really interesting because, you know, if you - I mean, people have different responses to porn, obviously. And some of it is disturbing, an"}
{"id": "773371999", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 10, "text": "When were you in college, by the way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, and he would say that it was wrong if you asked him about it. And I do think that I was really interested in the fact that we talk way more about consent than we did when I was in college."}
{"id": "773371999", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 11, "text": "So the mother, Eve, wanting some kind of adventure in her life with the new freedom that she has - like, she misses her son. She's alone. So she's both lonely, but she also senses she has this freedom, and she wants to use it. And one of the ways she uses it, as we've discussed, is, like, watching pornography. But when she goes out to dinner with a younger woman who works on her staff at the senior citizens center, she makes a pass at her, which is rejected. And this is the first time she's ever even thought of the possibility of having a relationship with a woman. And when she's rejected, it's kind of devastating. It's like, OK, I tried freedom. Like, what did I think I was doing? Like, apparently, I can't do that. Apparently, I've made a terrible mistake. Now I'm just really embarrassed. It's inappropriate, too, she thinks, as, like, the boss to have made a pass at someone who works for her. And she says, like, that's sexual harassment. Like, why did I do that? And she's just heartbroken and disappointed in herself and also inhibited by the response that she's gotten. And I thought it was interesting for you as a male writer to try to really get deep into this woman's head while trying out for the first time a lesbian relationship.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2017 interview with author Tom Perrotta. His novel \"Mrs. Fletcher\" has been made into an HBO miniseries of the same name, which premieres Sunday."}
{"id": "773371999", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 12, "text": "Are you saying, too, that we sometimes confuse freedom with violating our own principles?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, and I think it really was coming from that that sense that, once she starts looking at porn, certain things in real life look different to her. So she's watching all this porn where a confident,"}
{"id": "773371999", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's really interesting, right? That's certainly how it is when we're kids, right? We're told you can't do this and you can't do that, and the minute you find yourself alone, those are the thi"}
{"id": "773371999", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 14, "text": "Since you write about turning points in people's lives, what was a big turning point in your life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's like the kids leaving was like before when your parents left. Like, you're suddenly free. There's nothing stopping you. And I do feel like Eve is in this moment when, you know, she's al"}
{"id": "773371999", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 15, "text": "How did your parents and how did your old friends react to the changed version of you? Did your parents say, what happened to you? You're not our son anymore.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I do have to say that that going to college was - going college at Yale specifically after growing up where I did in New Jersey - at the time, I was really adamant with myself that I was not goi"}
{"id": "773371999", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Tom Perrotta", "title": "Tom Perrotta Shares 'Post-Parental' Reflections From An Empty Nest", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, Tom Perrotta, thanks so much for talking with us again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. You know, my parents were were great about it. I think especially my mom - she was the one who really encouraged my siblings and and me to to go to the best schools we possibly could, and I think "}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 0, "text": "Booker T., welcome to FRESH AIR. It's an honor to have you on our show.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli in for Terry Gross. Our next guest is Booker T. Jones. In the 1960s and '70s, he led the band Booker T. and the M.G.'s, which had several hits, including the pop"}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 1, "text": "Would you tell us the story behind the track that we just heard?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. I'm glad to be here."}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 2, "text": "Now, you know, Booker T. and the M.G.'s basically became the house band for Stax Records, and you played on a lot of their recordings. How did you become a member of the Stax house band?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that happened as something of an accident. We were at the studio as session musicians to play a session for an artist who didn't show up. So we used the time to record a blues which we called \"B"}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 3, "text": "Why don't we hear the recording that you played baritone sax on, which is your first recording for Stax? You want to introduce it for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was in 11th grade, and my friend David Porter knew that Rufus Thomas and his daughter Carla were recording one day. And I guess they had requested a baritone sax part on a song, and David thou"}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 4, "text": "OK. Let's hear it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's called \"'Cause I Love You\" by Rufus and Carla Thomas."}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 5, "text": "That's Rufus and Carla Thomas, the first recording that was of - that featured Booker T., but he wasn't on keyboards. He was on baritone saxophone. And Booker T. is my guest. So you stayed, obviously. I mean, you were in 11th grade. You made this recording, and you ended up becoming part of the house band. How did they - was it hard to convince you to stay? Did you have to convince them that they needed you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Come on."}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 6, "text": "So what was it like going to high school and making records at the same time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I convinced them. I actually had a paper route. That was my job in the afternoon, and - no, I convinced them to try me out on piano and eventually organ. And I eventually played on a organ on a Wi"}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 7, "text": "Booker T. and the M.G.'s is so associated with the Stax sound, such an essential part of what is described as the Stax sound. But how would you describe the Stax sound?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it was unreal. I was in a rush to get out of school and get my papers thrown and get over to Stax. That was my thrill every day - to get to go there and play music until, you know, 10 or 11 o'cloc"}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 8, "text": "Do you remember the first time you met Otis Redding?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would say it's a simple, earthy sound, you know, just born out of our blues and country and jazz roots and also gospel. It was a sound that, you know, we consciously tried to keep simple and with a "}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 9, "text": "So let's hear one of the records you made with Otis Redding. How about \"Dock Of The Bay?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Otis was a valet for a band from Georgia. He was carrying the clothes and doing the driving and going for the food and coffee and shining shoes or whatever he had to do to keep the band going. And I r"}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 10, "text": "Do you have memories of making this record?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. Yeah."}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 11, "text": "Well, that's not how it sounds", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I do have memories of that. That was a particularly special and hectic time. Otis was getting ready to go out on tour without us. And we had just returned to Memphis from the Monterey Pop Festiva"}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 12, "text": "on the record. It's not a record that sounds like it was made by people who were tired and overworked. Did the mood change...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I do have memories of that. That was a particularly special and hectic time. Otis was getting ready to go out on tour without us. And we had just returned to Memphis from the Monterey Pop Festiva"}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 13, "text": "...Once you started recording?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm not sure that we were tired."}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, let's hear \"Dock Of The Bay\" (ph) - Otis Redding and my guest Booker T. on keyboards on this recording.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm not sure that we were tired and overworked when we did this particular one. But the week was one that we recorded, I think, a whole album in just a few days. You know, the music always created its"}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 15, "text": "That's Otis Redding. And my guest Booker T. played piano and organ on many of the recordings on Stax Records, like the one we just heard. Were you close with Otis Redding?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Sitting in the morning sun - I'll be sitting when the evening comes watching the ships roll in. Then I'll watch them. roll away again. Yeah. Sitting on the dock of the bay, watching the tide"}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 16, "text": "Unfortunately because he died in a plane crash.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, unfortunately. Yes."}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 17, "text": "You wrote a song called \"Born Under A Bad Sign\" that I always thought was a much older song. I mean, it's such a kind of classic blues song.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's return to Terry's 2007 interview with Booker T. Jones, leader of the landmark soul band Booker T & The M.G.'s. He's just published a new memoir titled \"Time Is Tight.\""}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 18, "text": "I figured it was around a whole lot longer. You want to tell us the story behind writing this song?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's return to Terry's 2007 interview with Booker T. Jones, leader of the landmark soul band Booker T & The M.G.'s. He's just published a new memoir titled \"Time Is Tight.\""}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 19, "text": "What made you so happy about it? What did you particularly like about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. The company had acquired Albert King as an artist. And I was assigned his - to be his producer. And so we needed music for him. At that time, my partner was William Bell, my writing partner. Will"}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 20, "text": "Well, why don't we hear it? This is Albert King recorded in 1967. And my guest is Booker T., who's featured on this track.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It was Albert King from East St. Louis, you know, the lefthanded guitar player, who was just such - one of a kind and so electric and so intense and so serious about his music and involved with the "}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 21, "text": "That's Albert King from 1967. The song was co-written by my guest, pianist and organ player Booker T., who co-wrote that song. Now, when you were playing in - at Stax Records, when you were in Booker T. & the MGs and you were the house band and making your own records, the South was still pretty segregated. But your band was comprised of African American and white musicians. Did tensions from - did racial tensions from the outside world ever affect the band or did you feel pretty well protected by that - from that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Born under a bad sign, been down since I began to crawl. If it wasn't for bad luck, you know I wouldn't have no luck at all. Hard luck and trouble been my only friend. I've been on my own ev"}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 22, "text": "When you say the assassination affected you, did it - I mean, I imagine everybody in the band was pretty upset about it. Did it...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we were insulated, you know, as most Southern social institutions are. We were insulated because we had our little door there that we locked behind us at Stax. And nobody knew what was going on "}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 23, "text": "Did it cause any tensions in the band?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm hmm."}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 24, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What I mean is..."}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 25, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What I mean is it brought outside attention to us and what we were doing there."}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 26, "text": "Did you feel there were times you needed to keep it kind of a secret?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The fact that we were interracial - I like to call it a not too well-kept secret that we were interracial. I think, you know, when we were playing music, that nobody really cared that we were interrac"}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 27, "text": "Right, because two of you were white, two of you were black.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. The logistics of it demanded it. You know, we couldn't travel when we started without having two of us go get food. And sometimes, those two were myself and Al, or sometimes those two were"}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 28, "text": "You left Stax Records in 1969.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's return to Terry's 2007 interview with Booker T. Jones, leader of the landmark soul band Booker T. & the M.G.'s. His new memoir titled, \"Time Is Tight,\" has just been publi"}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 29, "text": "Which, I think, was the same year Stax was sold to Gulf and Western.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm hmm."}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 30, "text": "Did that have any reason - was that part of the reason why you left?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm hmm."}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 31, "text": "Because it was sold or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I left after Stax was sold to Gulf and Western."}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 32, "text": "Well, what were the changes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, not because it was sold but because it changed; because the owners had control, and the owners were able to dictate how this company was run. And so they did that. They had every right to do tha"}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 33, "text": "So when you left, did you leave on your own?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They changed the outlook. They made us feel as though - well, they made us meet a quota as far as how much music we produced. That was the first thing that really affected me, because we were always a"}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 34, "text": "What was your life like when you moved to Los Angeles?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I did. I left all by myself. Nobody came with me."}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 35, "text": "And how did your musical life change?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I - my life was uncertain for a while. But then I found friends in California that rescued me, so I was able to survive out there - out here, rather."}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 36, "text": "Bill Withers was building airplane toilets", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, as I said, I found friends who were also somewhat nonconformists who rescued me. I met Clarence Avant, who, at the time, was one of the leading entrepreneurs - African American entrepreneurs in "}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 37, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, as I said, I found friends who were also somewhat nonconformists who rescued me. I met Clarence Avant, who, at the time, was one of the leading entrepreneurs - African American entrepreneurs in "}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 38, "text": "So you actually helped discover him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Absolutely. And Clarence called up and sent Bill out to my ranch in Malibu. And Bill came up with - out there with a little tablet full of papers and an old, beat-up guitar and started to "}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 39, "text": "I didn't realize that. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My friends - yeah."}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 40, "text": "That was A&M Records.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had friends that introduced me to Herb Alpert and Jerry Moss. And they were starting a record label. And..."}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 41, "text": "And you produced Willie Nelson's, you know, now classic \"Stardust\" album.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Uh huh. Yeah. So we had a relationship. So I worked with them for a few years and ended up producing and arranging albums on - Rita Coolidge and various people on their label. And I actually ended up "}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 42, "text": "And your tastes are so wide-ranging. You want...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. That was one of the reasons why I think I made the right decision was because I was able to work in some different genres that I wouldn't have been able to do at Stax Records. Stax wanted to keep"}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 43, "text": "You wanted to work in a wide-ranging way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes."}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 44, "text": "Can I ask you about your name?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. It's one of my greatest disadvantages liking so much - so many different kinds of music."}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 45, "text": "And how did you end up, like, dropping the Jones from the professional part of your name? - because it was like Booker T. & The M.G.'s.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm named after my father, who's Booker T. Jones Sr. And he was named after Booker T. Washington. And the name is Booker Taliaferro."}
{"id": "773374901", "date": "2019-10-25", "guest": "Booker T Jones", "title": "Booker T. Jones Reflects On His Life in Music", "question_index": 46, "text": "It's been great to talk with you. Thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "775362224", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Viv Albertine", "title": "Punk Icon And Memoirist Viv Albertine On A Lifetime Of Fighting The Patriarchy", "question_index": 0, "text": "Viv Albertine, welcome to FRESH AIR. So you have two great memoirs. I'm going to ask you to start with a reading from the first one, \"Clothes, Clothes, Clothes. Music, Music, Music. Boys, Boys, Boys.\"", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross. One of the first women bands to play punk, defying the preconceptions about how women should look and sound, was the British band The Slits."}
{"id": "775362224", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Viv Albertine", "title": "Punk Icon And Memoirist Viv Albertine On A Lifetime Of Fighting The Patriarchy", "question_index": 1, "text": "When you'd studied record covers looking for the names of girlfriends and wives, was that your goal - to become the girlfriend or wife of a musician?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. (Reading) I studied record covers for the names of girlfriends and wives. That's how I connected girls to the world I wanted to be in. I scanned the whole of the thank-you's and the lyrics looki"}
{"id": "775362224", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Viv Albertine", "title": "Punk Icon And Memoirist Viv Albertine On A Lifetime Of Fighting The Patriarchy", "question_index": 2, "text": "Well, why don't we hear a track from The Slits' first album? And this is a song that you initiated, that you brought to the band. And then the members of the band expanded the song. And it's called \"So Tough.\" So I'm going to play the 2009 remastered version - I think it's from 2009 - of the song 'cause it sounds clearer. And the original version of this was recorded in the late '70s. So here's The Slits' \"So Tough.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sadly, it was my goal to become a girlfriend or a wife of a musician. I honestly couldn't conceive of any other way of being amongst creative, musical people - men, if I didn't know women could be par"}
{"id": "775362224", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Viv Albertine", "title": "Punk Icon And Memoirist Viv Albertine On A Lifetime Of Fighting The Patriarchy", "question_index": 3, "text": "That's The Slits performing \"So Tough\" - my guest Viv Albertine on guitar. And she's written two great memoirs. The first one, about her early years and getting into music, is called \"Clothes, Clothes, Clothes. Music, Music, Music. Boys, Boys, Boys.\" And the new one, which picks up after that - way after that, actually - covers a lot of her life. But she's writing it from the vantage point of looking back on her life from ages 59 and 60. And that one's called \"To Throw Away Unopened.\" So what was it like to actually be on stage with The Slits? You wanted for so long to be in music, to have the power of, like, being the guitarist on stage. Did it feel like you wanted it to feel?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Don't take it serious. So tough. You can't take anymore. Now you're getting weak. So tough. Don't start playing hide and seek. So hard. Why do you think he got like that? So hard. Don't thin"}
{"id": "775362224", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Viv Albertine", "title": "Punk Icon And Memoirist Viv Albertine On A Lifetime Of Fighting The Patriarchy", "question_index": 4, "text": "Oh, that's true. You didn't think you were capable of doing it. That's true.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, don't forget I hadn't wanted it for so long. You know, I..."}
{"id": "775362224", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Viv Albertine", "title": "Punk Icon And Memoirist Viv Albertine On A Lifetime Of Fighting The Patriarchy", "question_index": 5, "text": "That's right. Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I didn't think girls did that."}
{"id": "775362224", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Viv Albertine", "title": "Punk Icon And Memoirist Viv Albertine On A Lifetime Of Fighting The Patriarchy", "question_index": 6, "text": "It seems like you consciously decided not to sexualize yourselves on stage, to dress, you know, in clothes that would be considered, like, really sexy and arousing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I'd yearned to be amongst musicians and be part of an artistic circle. So within sort of moments of me having the thought that I can pick up a guitar, which is - came to me when I saw the Sex Pisto"}
{"id": "775362224", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Viv Albertine", "title": "Punk Icon And Memoirist Viv Albertine On A Lifetime Of Fighting The Patriarchy", "question_index": 7, "text": "What did this do to your feelings about men?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the most wonderful and refreshing thing about what we conjured up between us and between Vivienne Westwood and Malcolm McLaren and the other young girls and boys who hung out at the shop was tha"}
{"id": "775362224", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Viv Albertine", "title": "Punk Icon And Memoirist Viv Albertine On A Lifetime Of Fighting The Patriarchy", "question_index": 8, "text": "And against your father, who left you both when you were a child and abused - beat you with a belt and abused your mother, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was raised to have very, very little respect for men by my mother. That was before I had a say in, you know, in how I was raised. She did indoctrinate me against men - well, against patriarchy"}
{"id": "775362224", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Viv Albertine", "title": "Punk Icon And Memoirist Viv Albertine On A Lifetime Of Fighting The Patriarchy", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk more about your life. If you're just joining us, my guest is Viv Albertine, who first became known as a member of the girl punk rock band The Slits. And that was in the late '70s. She's written two memoirs, and her new one has just been published. It's called \"To Throw Away Unopened.\" Her first one was called \"Clothes, Clothes, Clothes. Music, Music, Music. Boys, Boys, Boys.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So she was not cool with men and not for no reason. She had not only been stymied in her work - you know, put down, not promoted, et cetera, not even got jobs. I mean, after the war - I was born"}
{"id": "775362224", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Viv Albertine", "title": "Punk Icon And Memoirist Viv Albertine On A Lifetime Of Fighting The Patriarchy", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Viv Albertine, who became known in the late '70s as a member of the band The Slits, one of the very first punk bands of women musicians. And now she's becoming known as a great writer. She has two memoirs. The first is called \"Clothes, Clothes, Clothes. Music, Music, Music. Boys, Boys, Boys.\" The second is written from her perspective of the second half of her life from the vantage point of being 59 and 60. And that new one is called \"To Throw Away Unopened.\" You were married for a bunch of years, I forget how many. You had a daughter.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So she was not cool with men and not for no reason. She had not only been stymied in her work - you know, put down, not promoted, et cetera, not even got jobs. I mean, after the war - I was born"}
{"id": "775362224", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Viv Albertine", "title": "Punk Icon And Memoirist Viv Albertine On A Lifetime Of Fighting The Patriarchy", "question_index": 11, "text": "Seventeen years. You had a daughter together, divorced when she was 8. At some point your husband said to you, either give up music or it's over. I'm leaving. And considering the feminist statements you were making with your music and with your life, what was it like to hear that from your husband? And when was this in terms of the place that music had in your life? Was this, like, long after The Slits?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Seventeen."}
{"id": "775362224", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Viv Albertine", "title": "Punk Icon And Memoirist Viv Albertine On A Lifetime Of Fighting The Patriarchy", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, a lot of your new memoir, \"To Throw Away Unopened,\" is about your relationship with your mother, which was a very complex relationship. You were very close also. And I'm going to ask you to read a section that's titled Do Not Resuscitate. And this is about what you were thinking as your mother was dying.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So when my husband and I got together, I had - I was a filmmaker then or a director. He liked that very much about me. I was earning good money. He was 10 years younger than me. He'd been a fan of The"}
{"id": "775362224", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Viv Albertine", "title": "Punk Icon And Memoirist Viv Albertine On A Lifetime Of Fighting The Patriarchy", "question_index": 13, "text": "I think it's so interesting that your mother was still reading at the very end of her life. And I think it's interesting that you wanted to know why, why did she still want to learn? It's a very existential question. I mean, 'cause we're all going to die", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) I never asked mom what she was thinking during her last few months in hospital. I didn't want to stir up thoughts of death in her, not when it was so imminent, in case she was frightened. We"}
{"id": "775362224", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Viv Albertine", "title": "Punk Icon And Memoirist Viv Albertine On A Lifetime Of Fighting The Patriarchy", "question_index": 14, "text": ". You know what I mean? So at what point does - do things like that lose their meaning, if ever? Is there anything else you want to say about that? I think it's just such an interesting thing to think about.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) I never asked mom what she was thinking during her last few months in hospital. I didn't want to stir up thoughts of death in her, not when it was so imminent, in case she was frightened. We"}
{"id": "775362224", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Viv Albertine", "title": "Punk Icon And Memoirist Viv Albertine On A Lifetime Of Fighting The Patriarchy", "question_index": 15, "text": "Do you have - you know, in that passage you say that you didn't want to actually ask her about the process of dying, even though you really wanted to know what she was experiencing because you didn't want to scare her or turn her into, like, an anthropology project, a specimen. Do you think you did the right thing? Do you have any regrets about not having talked to her about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was just so extraordinary to watch her because she loved the radio, listened to the radio. And I would have thought, naturally, you could still lie in bed and listen to the radio as you passed. But"}
{"id": "775362224", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Viv Albertine", "title": "Punk Icon And Memoirist Viv Albertine On A Lifetime Of Fighting The Patriarchy", "question_index": 16, "text": "My guest is Viv Albertine. She was the guitarist and lyricist in the all-women British punk band The Slits. Her new memoir is called \"To Throw Away Unopened.\" We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I don't. I mean, I think it was sensitive. There's plenty I do regret that I didn't say to her more. I should have said to her - they always say, say everything. I wish I'd thanked her more. At on"}
{"id": "775362224", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Viv Albertine", "title": "Punk Icon And Memoirist Viv Albertine On A Lifetime Of Fighting The Patriarchy", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is Viv Albertine. She was the guitarist and lyricist for the all-women British punk band The Slits. Now she's a writer and has just written her second memoir, called \"To Throw Away Unopened.\" Albertine is in her 60s now. When we left off, we were talking about her mother's death. After her death, you found one of her airline bags that she'd saved, on which she'd written, to throw away unopened, which, of course, became the title of your new memoir. How did you decide whether to open that bag or throw it away as directed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I don't. I mean, I think it was sensitive. There's plenty I do regret that I didn't say to her more. I should have said to her - they always say, say everything. I wish I'd thanked her more. At on"}
{"id": "775362224", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Viv Albertine", "title": "Punk Icon And Memoirist Viv Albertine On A Lifetime Of Fighting The Patriarchy", "question_index": 18, "text": "What was in the bag?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was absolutely no decision. Of course I was going to open that bag. My mother knew I would open that bag. She knew me. She knew how inquisitive I am, that I don't do what I'm told. It was a prov"}
{"id": "775362224", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Viv Albertine", "title": "Punk Icon And Memoirist Viv Albertine On A Lifetime Of Fighting The Patriarchy", "question_index": 19, "text": "How many years ago did she die?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Diaries of the last two years of her marriage because in those days, you kept a day-by-day, blow-by-blow account of every moment of your day when you were getting divorced because a divorce wasn't eas"}
{"id": "775362224", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Viv Albertine", "title": "Punk Icon And Memoirist Viv Albertine On A Lifetime Of Fighting The Patriarchy", "question_index": 20, "text": "How do you feel about her now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Four."}
{"id": "775362224", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Viv Albertine", "title": "Punk Icon And Memoirist Viv Albertine On A Lifetime Of Fighting The Patriarchy", "question_index": 21, "text": "The book ends with you deciding that you're going to burn your mother's diaries that were in that bag that was marked to throw away unopened because you didn't want to leave your daughter with them. Did you actually follow through on that and burn them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, because I delved like a detective through her past papers, through her life, through the environment, through the divorce laws, through her secrets, I've completely pieced together what made her"}
{"id": "775362224", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Viv Albertine", "title": "Punk Icon And Memoirist Viv Albertine On A Lifetime Of Fighting The Patriarchy", "question_index": 22, "text": "Yes. She's thinking that, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I can't do it. It's terrible. And on top of that, the two books I've written is me, in a way, leaving two more bombs for my daughter."}
{"id": "775362224", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Viv Albertine", "title": "Punk Icon And Memoirist Viv Albertine On A Lifetime Of Fighting The Patriarchy", "question_index": 23, "text": "So since your music in The Slits was in part a way of expressing your anger and your new memoir is in part about trying to understand the source of your anger - how it's affected your life, how you've dealt with it over the years, how you deal with it now - what did you try to teach your daughter about how to deal with anger?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She can't read the books. She finds them too upsetting. She's tried a couple of paragraphs of each one and has ended up in tears. So, you know, me thinking I'll be the bigger person, I'm going to thro"}
{"id": "775362224", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Viv Albertine", "title": "Punk Icon And Memoirist Viv Albertine On A Lifetime Of Fighting The Patriarchy", "question_index": 24, "text": "It has been great to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the interesting thing is my daughter doesn't have that anger. She has a different personality to me - much more grounded - but also different times. The fights for her are different. She doesn't"}
{"id": "775364522", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Robert Evans", "title": "Remembering Robert Evans, Producer Of 'The Godfather' And 'Chinatown'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Did you think that was the secret?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I met Mario Puzo as a favor to a literary agent friend of mine named George Weezer. And he needed money to pay off the bookies, actually, and he had this treatment called \"Mafia.\" It was 60 pages. And"}
{"id": "775364522", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Robert Evans", "title": "Remembering Robert Evans, Producer Of 'The Godfather' And 'Chinatown'", "question_index": 1, "text": "I should point out you're Jewish, so...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I - it must have been because we had made one two years before with Kirk Douglas. It was directed by Marty Ritt, written by Bill Sternberg, starred Luther Adler and Susan Strasberg and Kirk Douglas. A"}
{"id": "775364522", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Robert Evans", "title": "Remembering Robert Evans, Producer Of 'The Godfather' And 'Chinatown'", "question_index": 2, "text": "...It's kind of interesting that you really took a stand that it had to be an Italian.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I am."}
{"id": "775364522", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Robert Evans", "title": "Remembering Robert Evans, Producer Of 'The Godfather' And 'Chinatown'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Several directors turned down \"The Godfather\" - Costa-Gavras, Elia Kazan, Arthur Penn - not Italians. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yes, because - and I was right in taking that stand. If I would have done it, I most probably wouldn't have made it the same way. I wanted to smell the spaghetti, Terry."}
{"id": "775364522", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Robert Evans", "title": "Remembering Robert Evans, Producer Of 'The Godfather' And 'Chinatown'", "question_index": 4, "text": "That's how he got the gig - 'cause he was the only Italian around?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No Italians. There hadn't been an Italian director - second-generation Italian director in Hollywood at the time, as a matter of fact. It was pre-Martin Scorsese and other Italian directors. And Franc"}
{"id": "775364522", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Robert Evans", "title": "Remembering Robert Evans, Producer Of 'The Godfather' And 'Chinatown'", "question_index": 5, "text": "You didn't want to cast Al Pacino.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Clemenza) Aw, Paulie - won't see him no more."}
{"id": "775364522", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Robert Evans", "title": "Remembering Robert Evans, Producer Of 'The Godfather' And 'Chinatown'", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I didn't want Al Pacino. And Francis didn't want Jimmy Caan. So we settled on Al Pacino and Jimmy Caan as a combination because it was getting too close to shooting time. And Francis rightfully sa"}
{"id": "775364522", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Robert Evans", "title": "Remembering Robert Evans, Producer Of 'The Godfather' And 'Chinatown'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Oh, you know, and James Caan's Jewish, and you wanted...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So - but - and he didn't want Jimmy Caan at all because Jimmy - he had just done \"Rain People\" with him, and it got rained on pretty good."}
{"id": "775364522", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Robert Evans", "title": "Remembering Robert Evans, Producer Of 'The Godfather' And 'Chinatown'", "question_index": 8, "text": "...Italians in it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes..."}
{"id": "775364522", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Robert Evans", "title": "Remembering Robert Evans, Producer Of 'The Godfather' And 'Chinatown'", "question_index": 9, "text": "You say that when you saw Coppola's first cut, you told him he had to make it longer, that he had to put...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he does. But the point - the reason I wanted James Caan was because Al is, like, 5'4\" or 5'5\", and the guy they wanted to play opposite him in the part was something like 6'5\". And I didn't want"}
{"id": "775364522", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Robert Evans", "title": "Remembering Robert Evans, Producer Of 'The Godfather' And 'Chinatown'", "question_index": 10, "text": "...More in. And that's exactly the opposite of what I'd expect a producer to say. It's usually...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "775364522", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Robert Evans", "title": "Remembering Robert Evans, Producer Of 'The Godfather' And 'Chinatown'", "question_index": 11, "text": "...The film's too long. You'd better cut it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it is the opposite."}
{"id": "775364522", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Robert Evans", "title": "Remembering Robert Evans, Producer Of 'The Godfather' And 'Chinatown'", "question_index": 12, "text": "You say the ending was really a mess - that there was no ending.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And not only that - it was around two hours and six minutes, it's got. And he ended up with a - much closer to three hours. He had shot everything. He shot - he had shot that spaghetti, but he took "}
{"id": "775364522", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Robert Evans", "title": "Remembering Robert Evans, Producer Of 'The Godfather' And 'Chinatown'", "question_index": 13, "text": "What was the ending like? What was the ending like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's correct. There was no ending. And we had a lot of mayhem."}
{"id": "775364522", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Robert Evans", "title": "Remembering Robert Evans, Producer Of 'The Godfather' And 'Chinatown'", "question_index": 14, "text": "You say that when \"The Godfather\" was being made, really, most people did not want Brando to be cast.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was no - it wasn't written. There wasn't an ending. We were going to edit the ending. And neither Francis nor myself came up with that edit, as I talk about in the book. I think Peter Zinner was"}
{"id": "775364522", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Robert Evans", "title": "Remembering Robert Evans, Producer Of 'The Godfather' And 'Chinatown'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Producer Robert Evans is my guest, the former head of production at Paramount. You produced Chinatown...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Vito Corleone) You talk about vengeance. Is vengeance going to bring your son back to you or my boy to me? I forgo the vengeance of my son, but I have selfish reasons. My youngest son was forced t"}
{"id": "775364522", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Robert Evans", "title": "Remembering Robert Evans, Producer Of 'The Godfather' And 'Chinatown'", "question_index": 16, "text": "...A great movie. You cast Jack Nicholson as the leading man in this. Why did you want him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "775364522", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Robert Evans", "title": "Remembering Robert Evans, Producer Of 'The Godfather' And 'Chinatown'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Well, you say that Robert Towne, who wrote \"Chinatown,\" is still really angry with you about how the ending of \"Chinatown\" was changed. So how was it changed compared to what Robert Towne had originally written?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "First of all, he had never played a straight leading man before. Secondly, I've always looked at Jack - and I discovered him, actually - not discovered him for film, but for big-time film when I - whe"}
{"id": "775364522", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Robert Evans", "title": "Remembering Robert Evans, Producer Of 'The Godfather' And 'Chinatown'", "question_index": 18, "text": "I think he did", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Robert was definite upon it. He wanted the character that John Huston was playing to be killed at the end, and Roman wanted the Faye Dunaway character to be killed. He felt it was more unique th"}
{"id": "775364522", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Robert Evans", "title": "Remembering Robert Evans, Producer Of 'The Godfather' And 'Chinatown'", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Robert was definite upon it. He wanted the character that John Huston was playing to be killed at the end, and Roman wanted the Faye Dunaway character to be killed. He felt it was more unique th"}
{"id": "775364522", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Robert Evans", "title": "Remembering Robert Evans, Producer Of 'The Godfather' And 'Chinatown'", "question_index": 20, "text": "So that famous line - it's Chinatown, Jake - that said at the end probably wouldn't have been said at the end if the original...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm sure he must have. He only only became the biggest writer in town - not to use a pun, but he did. Towne became the biggest writer in town from \"Chinatown.\""}
{"id": "775364522", "date": "2019-11-01", "guest": "Robert Evans", "title": "Remembering Robert Evans, Producer Of 'The Godfather' And 'Chinatown'", "question_index": 21, "text": "...Ending was used. It would have been?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it would have."}
{"id": "777197508", "date": "2019-11-07", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "Amid Heightened Partisanship, A War Brews Between Trump And Congress", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The House impeachment inquiry has led to a showdown between the Democratic leaders of the inquiry and the House of Representatives and the Trump White House. Congress has issued subpoenas calling members of the administration to testify, and the Trump White House has instructed them not to comply with the subpoenas. The war between the president and Congress is the subject of the latest article by my guest Emily Bazelon, a staff writer for The New York Times Magazine. She also recently wrote about Attorney General William Barr and his maximalist interpretation of presidential power. We'll talk about Barr a little later, including ways in which he has helped and has distanced himself from Trump. Bazelon is the Truman Capote Fellow for Creative Writing and Law at Yale Law School. She's also the author of the book \"Charged: The New Movement To Transform American Prosecution And End Mass Incarceration.\" Emily Bazelon, welcome back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "777197508", "date": "2019-11-07", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "Amid Heightened Partisanship, A War Brews Between Trump And Congress", "question_index": 1, "text": "Just give us an overview. Describe the showdown between the leaders of the House impeachment inquiry and the White House over the subpoenas issued to members of the Trump administration.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks so much for having me."}
{"id": "777197508", "date": "2019-11-07", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "Amid Heightened Partisanship, A War Brews Between Trump And Congress", "question_index": 2, "text": "So White House counsel Pat Cipollone sent a letter to the four leaders of the House saying no one in the Trump administration would participate in the impeachment inquiry. What's his argument for preventing - or at least trying to prevent members of the administration from honoring the subpoena and testifying?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Congress has special oversight authority over the workings of the presidency and the executive branch. And the founders designed our system in that way in the sense that the three branches of governme"}
{"id": "777197508", "date": "2019-11-07", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "Amid Heightened Partisanship, A War Brews Between Trump And Congress", "question_index": 3, "text": "And he's saying that there would be lasting damage to the separation of powers if you left the president no choice but to comply with these subpoenas.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Trump's White House counsel is making this very bold argument that it's damaging to the separation of powers and to the authority of the executive branch for anyone in the entire executive branch to t"}
{"id": "777197508", "date": "2019-11-07", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "Amid Heightened Partisanship, A War Brews Between Trump And Congress", "question_index": 4, "text": "So say Cipollone want - say this goes to, you know, another court or something and Cipollone wins. What would his case do to Congress's power of oversight over the president?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So that's very forceful rhetoric. And you can see the political utility of that rhetoric because it makes it sound like it's not just a problem for President Trump but a problem for his office."}
{"id": "777197508", "date": "2019-11-07", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "Amid Heightened Partisanship, A War Brews Between Trump And Congress", "question_index": 5, "text": "So what power does the White House actually have to prevent someone from testifying if they want to? If a member of the administration wants to testify, what would the consequences be?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I think Cipollone's case really would eviscerate Congress's power to investigate not just the president but the executive branch. The difference is between claiming that the president has a ri"}
{"id": "777197508", "date": "2019-11-07", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "Amid Heightened Partisanship, A War Brews Between Trump And Congress", "question_index": 6, "text": "So what powers does Congress have to enforce its subpoenas?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To my surprise, when I started asking law professors that question, they said, actually, the president, perhaps, has no power to stop a willing witness. It's not clear that executive privilege - this "}
{"id": "777197508", "date": "2019-11-07", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "Amid Heightened Partisanship, A War Brews Between Trump And Congress", "question_index": 7, "text": "Because the clock runs out and the president might not even be president anymore.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's a really interesting question that is playing out in the courts right now. And I think the issue is, here, one of timing. So the Trump administration may lose the claim that Don McGahn do"}
{"id": "777197508", "date": "2019-11-07", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "Amid Heightened Partisanship, A War Brews Between Trump And Congress", "question_index": 8, "text": "Oh, I didn't realize that. So that's part of the reason why Congress is really rushing right now to start public testimony next week.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. That's the problem. And Congress can run out. If the session of Congress ends where the subpoena was issued, then the subpoena actually expires. It's like as if it turns into a pumpkin."}
{"id": "777197508", "date": "2019-11-07", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "Amid Heightened Partisanship, A War Brews Between Trump And Congress", "question_index": 9, "text": "So can Congress hold somebody in contempt if they've been subpoenaed and they aren't testifying because the president told them not to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. I mean, if this impeachment inquiry were to go beyond the end of Trump's first term but also this current Congress, they would have to reissue the subpoenas and basically start all over "}
{"id": "777197508", "date": "2019-11-07", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "Amid Heightened Partisanship, A War Brews Between Trump And Congress", "question_index": 10, "text": "So Congress is supposed to have oversight authority over the executive branch, including the president. So exactly what do you think that Trump and his administration think a congressional oversight over him and his administration actually consists of? And I ask because they keep waving away all of the oversight options that Congress is using.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Congress can hold someone in contempt based on its own powers. It's its own separate branch of government. It doesn't need a court's approval to do that. The question is what it really means to b"}
{"id": "777197508", "date": "2019-11-07", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "Amid Heightened Partisanship, A War Brews Between Trump And Congress", "question_index": 11, "text": "Is there any evidence that the Constitution supports that, the total invulnerability of the president to any kind of punishment for actions he committed, whether they were criminal or whether they were, you know, a violation of his powers or ethics?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. I think their vision of what Congress is allowed to do is vanishingly narrow and depends on the president basically deciding what he wants to disclose. There is an irony here because in another"}
{"id": "777197508", "date": "2019-11-07", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "Amid Heightened Partisanship, A War Brews Between Trump And Congress", "question_index": 12, "text": "Does Attorney General William Barr support the point of view that the Trump administration is offering?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think there's any legitimate or real support in the Constitution for that theory of the presidency. You know, the framers had lived under a king. They were very aware of the inherent danger of"}
{"id": "777197508", "date": "2019-11-07", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "Amid Heightened Partisanship, A War Brews Between Trump And Congress", "question_index": 13, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Emily Bazelon. She's a staff writer for The New York Times Magazine. She writes about legal issues. Her latest article is called \"What Happens When A President And Congress Go To War?\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Attorney General William Barr has presumably signed off on the arguments that the Justice Department is making about the very narrow bounds of any kind of congressional inquiry. And we also know "}
{"id": "777197508", "date": "2019-11-07", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "Amid Heightened Partisanship, A War Brews Between Trump And Congress", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Emily Bazelon. She's a staff writer at The New York Times Magazine, where she writes about legal issues. Her latest article is called \"What Happens When A President And Congress Go To War?\" So in terms of the impeachment inquiry, right now it looks like the House is not going to take the issue of the subpoenas to the courts because the courts take so long, and because I think the leaders of the inquiry think that they have enough information even if members of the Trump administration refuse to comply with the subpoenas. Is that how it's appearing to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Attorney General William Barr has presumably signed off on the arguments that the Justice Department is making about the very narrow bounds of any kind of congressional inquiry. And we also know "}
{"id": "777197508", "date": "2019-11-07", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "Amid Heightened Partisanship, A War Brews Between Trump And Congress", "question_index": 15, "text": "So, you know, we've been talking about this fight between Congress and the executive branch. Do you think that, ultimately, this is going to reset the balance of power between the three supposedly equal branches of government?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think that's right. And I think what you're seeing here is this quite brave act by a whole series of government career professionals to come forward and to testify, even though they have a dir"}
{"id": "777197508", "date": "2019-11-07", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "Amid Heightened Partisanship, A War Brews Between Trump And Congress", "question_index": 16, "text": "How? How would it do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So there's a couple ways that could happen. We could have the Supreme Court weigh in in a more definitive manner on either side. You could imagine the Supreme Court making a pretty sweeping decision o"}
{"id": "777197508", "date": "2019-11-07", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "Amid Heightened Partisanship, A War Brews Between Trump And Congress", "question_index": 17, "text": "Of course, with the wall, Congress...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we saw precedents for this in the 1920s, after the Teapot Dome scandal and also, particularly, in the 1970s. So after Watergate, Congress started with the War Powers Resolution which set limits "}
{"id": "777197508", "date": "2019-11-07", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "Amid Heightened Partisanship, A War Brews Between Trump And Congress", "question_index": 18, "text": "Yeah. With the wall, Congress tried to rein in the president's desire to spend, you know, as much money as he wants to on the wall. And the president went around them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Tried."}
{"id": "777197508", "date": "2019-11-07", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "Amid Heightened Partisanship, A War Brews Between Trump And Congress", "question_index": 19, "text": "My guest is Emily Bazelon, a staff writer for The New York Times magazine. Her latest article is titled, \"What Happens When A President And Congress Go To War?\" After a break, we'll talk more about the impeachment process, and we'll talk about Attorney General William Barr and ways in which he's helped and has distanced himself from President Trump. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That's true. That was a particular budget item that Congress said no to. And what happened was that President Trump invoked the National Emergencies Act and said that there was a national emerge"}
{"id": "777197508", "date": "2019-11-07", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "Amid Heightened Partisanship, A War Brews Between Trump And Congress", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Emily Bazelon, a staff writer for The New York Times Magazine. Her latest article is about the war between Congress and the White House over the impeachment inquiry. She's also written recently about Attorney General William Barr and his maximalist view of executive power. Bazelon is the Truman Capote Fellow for Creative Writing and Law at Yale Law School. She's also the author of the book \"Charged: The New Movement To Transform American Prosecution And End Mass Incarceration.\" So let's talk about the impeachment process. If the president is impeached in the House, then it goes to the Senate for a trial, and the trial can end in the removal of the president. If the president is impeached and it goes to trial in the Senate, the trial would be presided over by the chief justice of the Supreme Court, John Roberts. Exactly what would Justice Roberts' role be in the trial?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That's true. That was a particular budget item that Congress said no to. And what happened was that President Trump invoked the National Emergencies Act and said that there was a national emerge"}
{"id": "777197508", "date": "2019-11-07", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "Amid Heightened Partisanship, A War Brews Between Trump And Congress", "question_index": 21, "text": "So his powers would pertain only to what rules were followed and if they were being followed accurately?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Chief Justice Roberts would be the judge up there with the gavel making procedural decisions, making rulings about witnesses, about evidence, about lawyers making arguments. This would, amazingly, be "}
{"id": "777197508", "date": "2019-11-07", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "Amid Heightened Partisanship, A War Brews Between Trump And Congress", "question_index": 22, "text": "And, of course, people would be judging Chief Justice Roberts about how fair he was being in presiding over these rules. And I think, you know, liberals might say he's very conservative. He might side, therefore, with a very conservative point of view or with the Trump administration. On the other hand, he and Trump have really gone head to head. Trump called Roberts an absolute disaster after Roberts upheld the Affordable Care Act. When President Trump criticized a judge and called him an Obama judge, Chief Justice Roberts said we do not have Obama judges or Trump judges, Bush judges or Clinton judges. What we have is an extraordinary group of dedicated judges doing their level best to do equal right to those appearing before them. That independent judiciary is something we should all be thankful for. So do you have any sense of what Chief Justice Roberts would be like presiding over a Senate trial?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. The Senate would set the rules of the trial and then Roberts would be implementing them. I think it's also possible that he could take it upon himself to make some decisions about how procedura"}
{"id": "777197508", "date": "2019-11-07", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "Amid Heightened Partisanship, A War Brews Between Trump And Congress", "question_index": 23, "text": "So William Barr is the head of the Justice Department. I think he's in an unprecedented situation. There is an impeachment inquiry going on, and he is implicated in the inquiry. Would you explain how he's implicated?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So there are two things that are true about Chief Justice John Roberts. He is a deeply conservative Supreme Court justice. And he also cares a great deal about the legitimacy of the Supreme Court. It'"}
{"id": "777197508", "date": "2019-11-07", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "Amid Heightened Partisanship, A War Brews Between Trump And Congress", "question_index": 24, "text": "So if the criminal investigation into the Mueller investigation - and this is the criminal investigation that was initiated by Attorney General Barr - if that continues to go forward and if the results come back saying, yes, we've found criminal activity that led to the Mueller investigation, what does that mean? Does that mean that Andrew McCabe, who is the acting FBI director, is charged with a crime? Like, who...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So William Barr announced that he was opening inquiry. At first, it was just an administrative review into the origins of the Mueller investigation. And so this is this rather remarkable notion "}
{"id": "777197508", "date": "2019-11-07", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "Amid Heightened Partisanship, A War Brews Between Trump And Congress", "question_index": 25, "text": "Would that be unprecedented?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, that is possible, right? It means that anybody who is participating in those fraught decisions about who to investigate and how to do it when the Trump campaign was being accused of having the"}
{"id": "777197508", "date": "2019-11-07", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "Amid Heightened Partisanship, A War Brews Between Trump And Congress", "question_index": 26, "text": "And Attorney General Barr also declined to investigate a whistleblower complaint that the president was using the power of his office to get Ukraine to investigate Joe Biden, who is Trump's possible rival in the 2020 election. So that's another...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think it's unprecedented because when you go back to the Iran-Contra scandal in the Reagan administration, there were officials, including former Defense Secretary Caspar Weinberger, who were "}
{"id": "777197508", "date": "2019-11-07", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "Amid Heightened Partisanship, A War Brews Between Trump And Congress", "question_index": 27, "text": "...Way that he's just kind of involved in the story that he's supposed to be overseeing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "777197508", "date": "2019-11-07", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "Amid Heightened Partisanship, A War Brews Between Trump And Congress", "question_index": 28, "text": "William Barr has basically totally supported President Trump, and some people have even said Trump is treating Barr as if it was his personal lawyer. The Constitution calls for the separation of powers with three coequal branches, but when the president appoints the attorney general, how separate is the executive branch from the judicial branch?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. And that decision not to investigate the whistleblower complaint, not even to forward it to Congress - it's one of the most controversial and questionable calls that Trump's Justice Depa"}
{"id": "777197508", "date": "2019-11-07", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "Amid Heightened Partisanship, A War Brews Between Trump And Congress", "question_index": 29, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Emily Bazelon. She's a staff writer at The New York Times Magazine, and her latest article is called \"What Happens When A President And Congress Go To War With Each Other\" (ph). We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So this is a really tricky question in American governance. The attorney general serves at the pleasure of the president, just as you said, and is located firmly within the executive branch at "}
{"id": "777197508", "date": "2019-11-07", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "Amid Heightened Partisanship, A War Brews Between Trump And Congress", "question_index": 30, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is Emily Bazelon. She's a staff writer for The New York Times Magazine, and her latest article is called \"What Happens When A President And Congress Go To War?\" And it's focusing on the war between Congress and the president over subpoenas for the impeachment inquiry. And Emily Bazelon is also the Truman Capote Fellow for Creative Writing and Law at Yale Law School. So William Barr is the head of the Justice Department. He's the nation's top law enforcer. He's largely seen to have supported President Trump, but yesterday The Washington Post reported something Barr declined to do for the president. Would you explain?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So this is a really tricky question in American governance. The attorney general serves at the pleasure of the president, just as you said, and is located firmly within the executive branch at "}
{"id": "777197508", "date": "2019-11-07", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "Amid Heightened Partisanship, A War Brews Between Trump And Congress", "question_index": 31, "text": "So the Washington Post reports that according to their sources, Barr declined to hold a press conference saying that Trump did nothing wrong in this phone call with the president of Ukraine. In that same phone call, Trump apparently told the president of Ukraine, I will have Mr. Giuliani give you a call, and I'm also going to have Attorney General Barr call. So I don't know what kind of action was taken on that. To our knowledge, Barr did not call Zelenskiy, but if Barr knew that Trump said that to Zelenskiy, the president of Ukraine, should Barr have said something? Because Giuliani is Trump's personal attorney. He has no - he is supposed to have no involvement in foreign policy. That is not a personal attorney's business. So what is Barr's responsibility, his ethical and law enforcement responsibility, in a situation like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, sure. So President Trump wanted Barr to hold a news conference saying that Trump had done nothing wrong, had broken no laws when he had what is by now this notorious phone call with the presiden"}
{"id": "777197508", "date": "2019-11-07", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "Amid Heightened Partisanship, A War Brews Between Trump And Congress", "question_index": 32, "text": "So does President Trump want William Barr to investigate whether it was really Ukraine that hacked the Democratic emails in the 2016 election?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's a great question. Barr has said he never talked to anyone in the Ukraine, and he kind of quietly told reporters that he was angry that he - his name is getting bandied about in the contex"}
{"id": "777197508", "date": "2019-11-07", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "Amid Heightened Partisanship, A War Brews Between Trump And Congress", "question_index": 33, "text": "The investigation - the criminal investigation into the origins of the Mueller report.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. President Trump definitely wants Bill Barr to do that. And that may be part of this investigation that Barr has put John Durham in charge of. We don't quite know the boundaries."}
{"id": "777197508", "date": "2019-11-07", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "Amid Heightened Partisanship, A War Brews Between Trump And Congress", "question_index": 34, "text": "When William Barr was appointed by Trump as attorney general, many commentators, including some liberal ones, were saying, you know, Barr's an institutionalist. He's going to do right by the office. And now, many of the people who said that are now saying, well, I guess I was wrong because many of them now perceive Barr as being on the side of Trump as opposed to independent of the president. And so those people who think that he crossed over from institutionalist to presidential advocate are wondering why. Why would he end his career by seeming to be biased at a time when he shouldn't be? And I'm wondering - I assume that's something you've thought about. I don't know if you want to talk about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, exactly, 'cause the Ukrainian explanation is, like, this alternative conspiracy theory - debunked - about, you know, exactly how all of that unfolded. One question that legal experts have been a"}
{"id": "777197508", "date": "2019-11-07", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "Amid Heightened Partisanship, A War Brews Between Trump And Congress", "question_index": 35, "text": "And in terms of Barr's conservative point of view and his idea that secularists were using law as a weapon, you cite in one of your articles a couple of things - one was he opposed rules that he said compelled landlords to rent to unmarried couples. And he opposed rules that required universities to, quote, \"treat homosexual activist groups like any other student group.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I have been thinking about this. So I think one thing Barr had going for him was that he had George H.W. Bush on his resume. And at this point, that administration stands for moderate Republican."}
{"id": "777197508", "date": "2019-11-07", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "Amid Heightened Partisanship, A War Brews Between Trump And Congress", "question_index": 36, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Emily Bazelon. She is a staff writer for The New York Times Magazine. And her latest article is about the battle between Congress and the executive branch. We'll be right back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. He wrote those words in 1995. And in his recent speech at Notre Dame, he is talking about the same concerns with slightly different examples. So now he's talking about school districts t"}
{"id": "777197508", "date": "2019-11-07", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "Amid Heightened Partisanship, A War Brews Between Trump And Congress", "question_index": 37, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Emily Bazelon, a staff writer for The New York Times Magazine. Her latest article is titled \"What Happens When A President And Congress Go To War?\" She's also recently written about Attorney General William Barr and his maximalist view of executive power. We are living in such a politically divisive time now in terms of Congress and the courts and, of course, opinion about the president himself. When the founders created the separation of powers, the three coequal branches, I think they were counting on a level of, like, honesty and willingness to work together. Correct me if I'm wrong", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. He wrote those words in 1995. And in his recent speech at Notre Dame, he is talking about the same concerns with slightly different examples. So now he's talking about school districts t"}
{"id": "777197508", "date": "2019-11-07", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "Amid Heightened Partisanship, A War Brews Between Trump And Congress", "question_index": 38, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. He wrote those words in 1995. And in his recent speech at Notre Dame, he is talking about the same concerns with slightly different examples. So now he's talking about school districts t"}
{"id": "777197508", "date": "2019-11-07", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "Amid Heightened Partisanship, A War Brews Between Trump And Congress", "question_index": 39, "text": "And I'm wondering if, like, they never - if it's possible that they never envisioned the place where we are now in terms of political divisiveness.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "777197508", "date": "2019-11-07", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "Amid Heightened Partisanship, A War Brews Between Trump And Congress", "question_index": 40, "text": "Can you also argue that the Constitution gets bent out of shape if the judiciary becomes too politicized, if there are so many judicial appointees and Supreme Court appointees who are appointed for ideological reasons as opposed for, you know, judicial temperament and judicial knowledge and fairness and objectivity?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the founders were visionaries in terms of how much the system interlocks and overlaps, right? So they were so worried about any one branch getting too powerful and too dominant over the others"}
{"id": "777197508", "date": "2019-11-07", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "Amid Heightened Partisanship, A War Brews Between Trump And Congress", "question_index": 41, "text": "Emily Bazelon, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You could certainly argue that. The framers didn't do a whole lot to protect us from that because they gave life tenure to all the federal judges. And it's also important to remember that the Supreme "}
{"id": "777197508", "date": "2019-11-07", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "Amid Heightened Partisanship, A War Brews Between Trump And Congress", "question_index": 42, "text": "Emily Bazelon is a staff writer for The New York Times Magazine. Her latest article is titled \"What Happens When A President And Congress Go To War?\" If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, like this week's interviews with country singer Allison Moorer or poet Saeed Jones, whose new memoir is about growing up black, gay and closeted in Texas in the '90s, or with journalist David Owen about hearing and hearing loss, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks so much for having me."}
{"id": "777197508", "date": "2019-11-07", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "Amid Heightened Partisanship, A War Brews Between Trump And Congress", "question_index": 43, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Ann Marie Baldonado, Heidi Saman, Mooj Zadie, Seth Kelley and Joel Wolfram. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks so much for having me."}
{"id": "777212545", "date": "2019-11-08", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Paved The Way For The Civil War", "question_index": 0, "text": "Andrew Delbanco, welcome to FRESH AIR. So slavery is not mentioned in the Constitution by name, but it's referred to twice, first in Article 4, Section 2, Clause 3. Tell us what that clause is about.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. The harsh debate over the impeachment inquiry into President Trump is just one reminder of the sharp polarization in American politics. Today, w"}
{"id": "777212545", "date": "2019-11-08", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Paved The Way For The Civil War", "question_index": 1, "text": "It's really interesting, though, that the word slave is not mentioned. It's like, no person held to service or labor in one state. Well, it's referring to indentured servants and to slaves. And it sounds like a contractual agreement - no person held to service or labor. They're talking about slavery in this. Why don't they come out and say slavery?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it's a clause in the Constitution that makes it clear that if a slave or, indeed, an indentured servant flees from the service or labor that person owes to his, quote, unquote, \"owner\" - flees to a"}
{"id": "777212545", "date": "2019-11-08", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Paved The Way For The Civil War", "question_index": 2, "text": "And the word enters into the language just a few years later in 1793 in a new law signed by President George Washington. What was that law?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Well, that's a question that has engaged Americans for centuries, in fact. Abraham Lincoln believed that it was because - he described slavery as a cancer that would eventually be cut out and t"}
{"id": "777212545", "date": "2019-11-08", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Paved The Way For The Civil War", "question_index": 3, "text": "So again, getting back to the Constitution, the word slave was not mentioned in the clause that basically said that runaway slaves had to be returned. But there's another clause, the three-fifths clause as it's known, that's also in the Constitution. And that also applies to slavery.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Well, it became very clear very quickly that this so-called fugitive slave clause was unenforceable. For one thing, it never said who was in charge of enforcement. Was it a local matter? If a s"}
{"id": "777212545", "date": "2019-11-08", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Paved The Way For The Civil War", "question_index": 4, "text": "And for people not familiar with that clause, please describe it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "777212545", "date": "2019-11-08", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Paved The Way For The Civil War", "question_index": 5, "text": "So you quote Lincoln, of course, in the Gettysburg Address, 1863, referring to a nation conceived in liberty and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal. You say that even Lincoln realized that that was not strictly true. And five years earlier, he was more candid. What did he say in 1858?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it states that for purposes of representation - that is, apportionment of representatives in Congress - and that is in the lower house of Congress, the House of Representatives - three-fifths of"}
{"id": "777212545", "date": "2019-11-08", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Paved The Way For The Civil War", "question_index": 6, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk more about your book, which is called \"The War Before The War: Fugitive Slaves And The Struggle For America's Soul From The Revolution To The Civil War.\" My guest is Andrew Delbanco, the author of that book. He's also a professor of American studies at Columbia University. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Lincoln was a great man and, I think, a man with a very strong moral center. But he was also a politician. And when he was speaking at Gettysburg, he wanted to articulate what he thought was the"}
{"id": "777212545", "date": "2019-11-08", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Paved The Way For The Civil War", "question_index": 7, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And on this day when this country seems so divided, we're looking at one of the great historical divisions in our country, the division over slavery. My guest, Andrew Delbanco, is the author of the new book \"The War Before The War: Fugitive Slaves And The Struggle For America's Soul From The Revolution To The Civil War.\" He's also a professor of American studies at Columbia University. How many of the Founding Fathers - which Founding Fathers actually owned slaves themselves?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Lincoln was a great man and, I think, a man with a very strong moral center. But he was also a politician. And when he was speaking at Gettysburg, he wanted to articulate what he thought was the"}
{"id": "777212545", "date": "2019-11-08", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Paved The Way For The Civil War", "question_index": 8, "text": "Thomas Jefferson himself had owned slaves. And you reprint an ad that he'd put in a newspaper offering a reward for one of his slaves, one of his runaway slaves. So if he had this ideal, how did he justify having slaves?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, there were 55 signers to the Constitution. And right now I can't give you the number, but something like a half or two-thirds were slave owners at one time or another in their lives. We want"}
{"id": "777212545", "date": "2019-11-08", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Paved The Way For The Civil War", "question_index": 9, "text": "And, of course, then there's his relationship with Sally Hemings, one of his slaves, who he apparently had a relationship with and children with, as well.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this is a very deep and difficult question. And it's not as if the scholars will ever agree about it. I mean, you can find in Jefferson the most soaring, beautiful language about the dignity of "}
{"id": "777212545", "date": "2019-11-08", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Paved The Way For The Civil War", "question_index": 10, "text": "Before we really leave the subject of the Constitution, I'm just wondering how you deal with the fact that our liberty is based on the Constitution. It's considered one of the greatest documents in human history. At the same time, it's clearly a flawed document because it allows for slavery in three separate clauses. And in that sense, it's a very compromised document. It insists on the equality of men. It leaves out women. It allows slavery. It certainly, you know, eliminates the recognition of slaves as actual people. How do you deal with the imperfections and contradictions of the Constitution while still believing in its beauty and its importance and its insistence on equality?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That seems to be the case. The DNA evidence suggests that. Did he think of her as a piece of property to be exploited for pleasure, or did he love her and think of her as a human being to whom he owed"}
{"id": "777212545", "date": "2019-11-08", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Paved The Way For The Civil War", "question_index": 11, "text": "So I just misquoted the Constitution, I guess, as many of us do", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one way to answer that question is to give you Lincoln's answer, which was that the fountainhead of everything about America was not, in his mind, in the Constitution, though he had great revere"}
{"id": "777212545", "date": "2019-11-08", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Paved The Way For The Civil War", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one way to answer that question is to give you Lincoln's answer, which was that the fountainhead of everything about America was not, in his mind, in the Constitution, though he had great revere"}
{"id": "777212545", "date": "2019-11-08", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Paved The Way For The Civil War", "question_index": 13, "text": "That's the Declaration of Independence.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You sort - I mean..."}
{"id": "777212545", "date": "2019-11-08", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Paved The Way For The Civil War", "question_index": 14, "text": "So we were talking about the clause in the Constitution that says that - you know, without using the word slave, it says that any person, basically, who's a runaway slave or an indentured servant needs to be returned. That law didn't have enough teeth. So a federal law was passed giving that some more teeth. And then in reaction to that, a series of personal liberty laws were passed in the North. What were those laws? What were the goals of those laws?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, you could make the case that those principles are in the Constitution, too, but they're suppressed and implicit, whereas in the Declaration they're right out there. And so, you know, I think t"}
{"id": "777212545", "date": "2019-11-08", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Paved The Way For The Civil War", "question_index": 15, "text": "Pennsylvania had the strictest personal liberty law. And that was challenged in the Supreme Court in a decision called Prigg v. Pennsylvania. And Pennsylvania's law was overturned. On what grounds?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. We're listening to the interview Terry recorded with Andrew Delbanco, author of the book \"The War Before The War: Fugitive Slaves And The Strugg"}
{"id": "777212545", "date": "2019-11-08", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Paved The Way For The Civil War", "question_index": 16, "text": "He was the chief justice, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Justice Story said that..."}
{"id": "777212545", "date": "2019-11-08", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Paved The Way For The Civil War", "question_index": 17, "text": "So it divided the country even more.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was - yes, of the Supreme Court in 1842. His ruling essentially said that any state law that interferes with the principle of the fugitive slave clause of the Constitution was unconstitutional - th"}
{"id": "777212545", "date": "2019-11-08", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Paved The Way For The Civil War", "question_index": 18, "text": "And that's the Fugitive Slave Act.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's my impression - that, you know, the authors of the Constitution were right to realize that stitching together these two countries, as it were - one based on slavery and one increasingly based o"}
{"id": "777212545", "date": "2019-11-08", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Paved The Way For The Civil War", "question_index": 19, "text": "So what did that act say?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850."}
{"id": "777212545", "date": "2019-11-08", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Paved The Way For The Civil War", "question_index": 20, "text": "How so?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it said a lot of things. It said anyone who interfered with the capture of a slave was guilty of a federal crime. It said that citizens in the North were obliged to assist in the capture of fugi"}
{"id": "777212545", "date": "2019-11-08", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Paved The Way For The Civil War", "question_index": 21, "text": "Sugar that was harvested by slaves.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, where to begin? I mean, you know, we don't think very hard about where the products come from that we consume every day. New Englanders didn't think about where the sugar came from that they put"}
{"id": "777212545", "date": "2019-11-08", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Paved The Way For The Civil War", "question_index": 22, "text": "You know, so we're talking about the Fugitive Slave Act in terms of how it further divided the country and helped lead to the Civil War. But let's talk about what it meant, what the Fugitive Slave Act meant, for slaves and for people living in the North who were either emancipated slaves or who never were slaves - were born in freedom and expected and wanted to stay living a life of a free person. How were their lives affected by the Fugitive Slave Act, those people in the North?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Ralph Waldo Emerson said at one point, no one tastes blood in the treats - blood in the treats. New Englanders didn't think about the fact that they might have had personal investments in the S"}
{"id": "777212545", "date": "2019-11-08", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Paved The Way For The Civil War", "question_index": 23, "text": "Unless they showed papers saying that they were emancipated, they could be taken to the South and given to anyone who claimed that they had previously owned this person.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, again, I am wary of facile analogies, but, you know, we think of the Jews of Europe from one minute to the next. One minute they were assimilated citizens in Germany or France, and then virtuall"}
{"id": "777212545", "date": "2019-11-08", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Paved The Way For The Civil War", "question_index": 24, "text": "My guest is Andrew Delbanco, author of \"The War Before The War: Fugitive Slaves And The Struggle For America's Soul From The Revolution To The Civil War.\" We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. I mean, the Southerners would have said, no, no, there were constraints around that, and we're only coming after the people that we have legitimate property rights toward. But that's not how it"}
{"id": "777212545", "date": "2019-11-08", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Paved The Way For The Civil War", "question_index": 25, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with historian Andrew Delbanco, author of \"The War Before The War: Fugitive Slaves And The Struggle For America's Soul From The Revolution To The Civil War.\" When we left off, we were talking about the Fugitive Slave Act of 1850, which allowed slave catchers to abduct freed or escaped slaves and return them to the South. So Congress repealed the fugitive slave law in June of 1864. Congress, by that time, was the North. There wasn't a Southern vote to object to the repeal.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. I mean, the Southerners would have said, no, no, there were constraints around that, and we're only coming after the people that we have legitimate property rights toward. But that's not how it"}
{"id": "777212545", "date": "2019-11-08", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Paved The Way For The Civil War", "question_index": 26, "text": "And then the war ended about a year later. So let's jump ahead. I mean, you're a professor of American studies, so you don't just study the Civil War or the history of slavery. You're looking at the history of our country.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "777212545", "date": "2019-11-08", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Paved The Way For The Civil War", "question_index": 27, "text": "And a lot of people have written about this and spoken about this. But for you, how do you see the long-standing consequences of slavery for African-Americans in the United States?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "777212545", "date": "2019-11-08", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Paved The Way For The Civil War", "question_index": 28, "text": "This is a question I know you can't answer, but I'm going to ask you about it anyways.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, let me try it this way. We often speak these days about people of color or minorities. And there are good reasons to group people into those categories under certain circumstances. But I don't t"}
{"id": "777212545", "date": "2019-11-08", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Paved The Way For The Civil War", "question_index": 29, "text": "The divisions in our country seem so strong right now that some people are actually worried that there is going to be an actual fight - you know, expressed through just, like, fighting in the streets between people from different political sides or something more extreme than even that. How serious a worry do you think that is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "777212545", "date": "2019-11-08", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Paved The Way For The Civil War", "question_index": 30, "text": "I knew that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I can't answer the question. But I can say..."}
{"id": "777212545", "date": "2019-11-08", "guest": "Andrew Delbanco", "title": "How The Fugitive Slave Act Paved The Way For The Civil War", "question_index": 31, "text": "Well, I want to thank you so much for joining us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. But I can say that writing this book was sort of a double-edged experience for me. On the one hand, you look at what happened in the 1850s - at the complete breakdown of the federal government,"}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest Andrew Marantz has spent the past three years reporting on the alt-right's use of social media. He's embedded with the people he describes as the trolls and bigots and propagandists who are experts at converting fanatical memes into policy. Marantz is a staff writer for The New Yorker and started this reporting project during the 2016 presidential campaign. He watched how extremist memes and lies were created and went viral, and he profiled the people creating the means. Marantz has also been reporting on social media platforms, like Facebook, Twitter and Reddit, that claim they're dedicated to free speech but have vulnerabilities that have allowed them to become the primary means for spreading disinformation. His latest articles are about what social media platforms have been doing and have declined to do to prevent purveyors of false news and smears from exploiting social media during the 2020 election. Andrew Marantz is the author of the new book \"Antisocial: Online Extremists, Techno-Utopians, And The Hijacking Of The American Conversation.\" Andrew Marantz, welcome to FRESH AIR. Your book is about disinformation, propaganda on social media, trolling before and after the election of Trump. Do you think enough has changed to prevent that from happening again as we face the 2020 election?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 1, "text": "I want to get to a good example of what you are covering. You were with Mike Cernovich, who made the whole Hillary-is-sick, Hillary-has-a-neurological-problem meme go viral. So let's start with - who is Mike Cernovich?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, definitely not. There have been a couple of little loopholes that have been closed here and there. But no, I think we're pretty much in for what we were in for last time."}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 2, "text": "So tell us how he came up with the meme that Hillary is sick, that she has Parkinson's disease.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He is a lawyer and a misogynist and a married guy with kids who lives in Southern California. And he also sells nutritional supplements and hair products online. And he also is a mastermind behind a l"}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 3, "text": "And this was, of course, during the election.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So..."}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 4, "text": "And what was the, quote, \"evidence\" he used that Hillary was sick?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So when I first reached out to him, I - this was middle of 2016. And when I first reached out to him, he said, yeah, you know, I'm happy to let you just sit in my living room and watch me do th"}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 5, "text": "And she did collapse. I think she had pneumonia.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, for that one, it was, like, she blinked in a way that he found weird - in a video. Or you know, she had parts of her public schedule that couldn't be accounted for. And you know, I should say, the"}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 6, "text": "And one of your points is, here's a guy at home with a phone or a laptop and followers. And he can really make something that is not true at all go viral and get picked up eventually by the media.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, exactly. So that happened before. He was planting these sickness rumors before that happened, and then she had pneumonia. Again, she wasn't very transparent with the press about the fact that s"}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 7, "text": "Of course I wondered, like, how does he fund himself? Is this something he can monetize, making things go viral? But apparently, part of the how he funded himself was through his divorce 'cause his wife...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. When I was first with him, I kind of thought - wow, I'm getting really lucky today. You know, I'm seeing him move the needle of the public discourse in such discreet ways. You know, it wasn't ju"}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 8, "text": "His wife had worked at Facebook and had a lot of shares. He got some of those shares as part of the divorce settlement. And when Facebook went public, that translated to $2.6 million. But I guess he also funded himself through all the things that he sold that had nothing to do with politics, like the vitamin supplements and dieting things and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. When I was first with him, I kind of thought - wow, I'm getting really lucky today. You know, I'm seeing him move the needle of the public discourse in such discreet ways. You know, it wasn't ju"}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 9, "text": "One of the other things that Mike Cernovich, who we've been talking about, did was he co-hosted the DeploraBall, which was basically the framing device for your book. Why don't you explain what the DeploraBall was and why you made it the framing device?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And books - he sold a lot of books on Amazon. And they were self-published, which means he kept a big share of the revenue. This was just one of these many details that came up in the course of report"}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 10, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Andrew Marantz, author of the new book \"Antisocial: Online Extremists, Techno-Utopians, And The Hijacking Of The American Conversation.\" We're going to take a short break, then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So there was a campaign event during the 2016 campaign where Hillary Clinton famously - or infamously, depending on your point of view - said about half of Trump's supporters are what I would ca"}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Andrew Marantz, author of the new book \"Antisocial: Online Extremists, Techno-Utopians, And The Hijacking Of The American Conversation.\" He's a staff writer for The New Yorker. When you decided to follow some of the trolls before and after the presidential election, you had to decide whether, in doing so, you were exposing them and therefore doing a productive thing or whether you were giving them more of a platform by talking about them in The New Yorker and then writing a book about them, letting people know their names. And my impression is, even from reading your book, that a lot of the people who have been putting out the disinformation on American social media, they want attention. I mean, going viral is really important to them, and getting attention seems to be really important to them. And you would be giving it to them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So there was a campaign event during the 2016 campaign where Hillary Clinton famously - or infamously, depending on your point of view - said about half of Trump's supporters are what I would ca"}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 12, "text": "One of the people who you write about in your new book is Mike Enoch. He is the founder of the blog The Right Stuff - and that's right as in far-right - and the founder of the podcast \"The Daily Shoah,\" which is obviously a joke on the name \"The Daily Show\" and the Shoah, the Holocaust. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm hmm, yeah. I lost a lot of sleep over that. I did not want to be used as a vector for propaganda. I didn't want to be someone else's pawn. And look, I mean, I think it would be naive to ignore the"}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 13, "text": "Yeah. And no surprise, the podcast is very anti-Semitic and white supremacist. So tell us about Mike Enoch and what The Right Stuff is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's hilarious."}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 14, "text": "So let's get back to what his blog, \"The Right Stuff,\" and his podcast, \"The Daily Shoa,\" are like and how much influence they actually seem to have.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So this is another one where I really struggled with whether to pay this any attention or whether to just leave it alone. You know, it's obviously extremely toxic stuff. And you know, I'm Jewish"}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 15, "text": "Like, on Twitter, a lot of, like, Jewish journalists have the three parentheses around each side of their name to say, yeah, I'm Jewish, and I'm proud of that. That's fine.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So as with a lot of fringe things, they are extremely, frankly anti-Semitic, racist. The aesthetic is kind of like drive-time radio, shock jock from the '90s kind of thing. They were big fans of"}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 16, "text": "Yeah, to reclaim it so that you can't be attacked for being Jewish. You're saying, yeah, I am.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, to kind of reclaim it."}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 17, "text": "There seems to be this odd mix of wanting to stay in the shadows and wanting to be famous and have a lot of power.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And so that was the kind of thing where most people who did that probably had no idea where it originated, and yet if you actually go trace that meme back to its source, what you see is that thi"}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 18, "text": "I guess he's maybe more of an in-the-shadows guy", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it is..."}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it is..."}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 20, "text": "Literally? Like, I mean, not literally Cerno, but literally, he put words in Richard Spencer's mouth? They've worked closely together?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's sort of the guy behind the guy. I mean, he's, in a way, kind of this Cerno (ph) who puts words in Richard Spencer's mouth. But..."}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 21, "text": "My guest is Andrew Marantz, a staff writer for The New Yorker and author of the new book \"Antisocial: Online Extremists, Techno Utopians, And The Hijacking Of The American Conversation.\" After a break, we'll talk about what Facebook and Twitter are and aren't doing to prevent false news and smears from being spread through political ads. And our TV critic David Bianculli will preview the new Disney streaming service. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Often, yeah. They became very close allies, and Richard Spencer would often go on \"The Daily Shoa.\" And what Enoch would do - he called them narratives. So he would sort of set the narratives. So Enoc"}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Andrew Marantz, author of the new book \"Antisocial: Online Extremists, Techno-Utopians, And The Hijacking Of The American Conversation.\" He spent the past three years, starting with the 2016 presidential campaign, embedding with online extremists, profiling them, and watching them create viral memes. He's also written about social media platforms like Facebook, Twitter and Reddit and what they have and have not done to prevent their platforms from being used to spread lies, smears and hate speech. When we left off, we were talking about Mike Enoch, who Marantz describes as a white supremacist. Enoch founded the blog The Right Stuff and the podcast \"The Daily Shoah.\" The title is a play on \"The Daily Show\" and the Shoah, a Hebrew word for the Holocaust. When Mike Enoch was doxxed, the information came out that his wife is Jewish, and I think you confirmed that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Often, yeah. They became very close allies, and Richard Spencer would often go on \"The Daily Shoa.\" And what Enoch would do - he called them narratives. So he would sort of set the narratives. So Enoc"}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 23, "text": "Did you talk to him about that? I mean 'cause he's basically a white supremacist. Is that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 24, "text": "White nationalist - whatever word he...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm hmm, yeah."}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 25, "text": "There you go. And I assume anti-Semitism is a part of that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He prefers white nationalist. I think white supremacist is more than fair."}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 26, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Definitely, yeah."}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 27, "text": "Is he still married?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well - so I talked to him about it at length. And part of it was just that he hadn't been what they call red-pilled yet when he met her. So he hadn't had this conversion experience yet when he m"}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 28, "text": "\"The Daily Shoah\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No, they separated. She claimed that she wasn't really aware of what his podcast was about while it was happening. I..."}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 29, "text": "So Enoch is anti-Semitic, racist and promotes those thoughts on his blog and podcast. Did he support Donald Trump during the election? Does he support President Trump now? Did he play any role in promoting Trump?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Daily - exactly, yeah. Not only is it implausible, but I have some reporting that pretty clearly shows that that's not true. And you know, it just makes you wonder - like, how could a Jewish woman"}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 30, "text": "So if Trump were to run again, do you think he'd have the support of Mike Enoch or other people that you've written about in the book?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So he and the rest of the alt-right definitely supported Trump during the campaign and saw him as the best they were ever going to get from a plausible presidential candidate. I mean, they saw h"}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 31, "text": "Really? How come?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's a really good question. A lot of them have moved on to other people like Tulsi Gabbard. A lot of people in my book are really into Tulsi these days."}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 32, "text": "So Hillary Clinton said that Tulsi Gabbard has been getting support from Russia.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because - well, for one, she's just the most anti-war candidate. And some of them are almost single-issue voters in that way. But others, they really stand so far outside the political system that the"}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 33, "text": "Do you know anything about that? I mention that just 'cause I was surprised to hear that she's getting so much support from extremists on the far right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm hmm."}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 34, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Andrew Marantz. He's a staff writer for The New Yorker and author of the new book \"Antisocial: Online Extremists, Techno-Utopians And The Hijacking Of The American Conversation.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So I think there are two plausible ways to read this. One is that Gabbard is outside of the mainstream on foreign policy issues and she is pushing an agenda that she feels strongly about, and he"}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 35, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Andrew Marantz, a staff writer for The New Yorker and author of the new book \"Antisocial: Online Extremists, Techno-Utopians And The Hijacking Of The American Conversation.\" And during the 2016 presidential campaign and then after, he followed and, you know, interviewed and spoke with, spent time with a lot of people on the far right who had figured out how to make things go viral and, in that sense, were having a big contribution to the American conversation about Donald Trump and American politics. Do you see any echoing of the extremists who you write about in your book on Fox News? Did Fox News pick up on the blog posts and memes that these people put out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So I think there are two plausible ways to read this. One is that Gabbard is outside of the mainstream on foreign policy issues and she is pushing an agenda that she feels strongly about, and he"}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 36, "text": "There's a lot of pressure now on social media to prevent smears, hate speech, threats, disinformation, propaganda. And, you know, Facebook is a good example of a company that appears to be trying to deal with it. So what has Facebook done recently to try to cut down on propaganda, disinformation, smears, threats?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, definitely. This is another case where, you know, I don't have subpoena power. I can't order Tucker Carlson and Laura Ingraham and whoever else to turn over their cell phones to me. But I could "}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 37, "text": "Mark Zuckerberg said that Facebook will continue to take political ads, and it won't fact-check or reject those ads. He doesn't see it as their job to do that. And then there was a letter from about 250 Facebook employees offering suggestions to improve the policy on political ads without eliminating them altogether. What was said in that letter?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So in one sense, Facebook is doing a lot of stuff. In another sense, they're kind of running away from their responsibility. Often, something really awful will happen on Facebook. Like, they will add "}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 38, "text": "Because the First Amendment is about government intrusion on speech. It's not about...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was really specific. You know, these are Facebook employees who know how to speak a language that Facebook executives can understand, so they didn't lead with a lot of broad, sweeping political sta"}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 39, "text": "...Private enterprise.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 40, "text": "So what's another suggestion that was made in this letter from Facebook employees?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. The First Amendment says Congress shall make no law abridging freedom of speech. Now, there are people who say that Facebook should be governed more like a public utility, and I think that's a w"}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 41, "text": "I'm assuming that political ads are an important part of Facebook's revenue stream.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They mentioned the idea of shutting down political ads altogether but only to kind of dismiss it. They sort of said, well, that's outside the question. And then, of course, Twitter did that, like, two"}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 42, "text": "Social media platforms have been criticized for their role in the 2016 election in spreading disinformation smears, fake news. So now as we head to the 2020 election, are we in better shape than we were in terms of social media? - because there's more of an awareness from the people who run the platforms and, I think, from the users of the platforms. Some of the people who you've written about have been thrown off Twitter and other social platforms - social media platforms too - Reddit.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, even that is debatable. I mean, Zuckerberg has made a point of saying, this is such a small part of our revenue stream that, you know, trust me, it's not worth it for the controversy. We're doin"}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 43, "text": "Yeah. So, like, have we made progress? Are we in better shape in terms of American social media? Russia is still quite a wild card", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm hmm."}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 44, "text": ". But in terms...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm hmm."}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 45, "text": "...Of America social media, are we in better shape?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 46, "text": "Andrew Marantz, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Russia's a wild card. Iran is a wild card. China is a wild card. And a lot of the stuff I focus on in the book is not even shadowy secret state actors but American citizens who are willingly and"}
{"id": "778502116", "date": "2019-11-12", "guest": "Andrew Marantz", "title": "How Internet Trolls And Online Extremists Are 'Hijacking' American Politics", "question_index": 47, "text": "Andrew Marantz is a staff writer for The New Yorker and author of the new book \"Antisocial: Online Extremists, Techno-Utopians, And The Hijacking Of The American Conversation.\" After a break, our TV critic David Bianculli will preview Disney Plus, the new Disney streaming service. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. This was really great."}
{"id": "781579229", "date": "2019-11-21", "guest": "Ben Freeman", "title": "Ukrainian Oligarchs And The Influence Of Foreign Money On American Politics", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The impeachment inquiry is investigating the irregular channel through which members of the Trump administration and the president's personal lawyer allegedly tried to make U.S. military assistance to Ukraine conditional on Ukraine investigating Trump's possible campaign opponent, Joe Biden. My guest has been examining how the influence also worked in the opposite direction, how oligarchs from Ukraine have tried to influence American policy through people who have been in the Trump administration or associated with Trump. That includes several people who have been convicted or are being investigated for working as unregistered foreign lobbyists. Ben Freeman is the director of the Foreign Influence Transparency Initiative at the Center for International Policy. He's also the author of the 2012 book \"The Foreign Policy Auction.\" Ben Freeman, welcome to FRESH AIR. Let's start with a list, if you can provide one, of members or at least some of the members of the Trump administration either serving time or being investigated for failing to register as a foreign lobbyist.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "781579229", "date": "2019-11-21", "guest": "Ben Freeman", "title": "Ukrainian Oligarchs And The Influence Of Foreign Money On American Politics", "question_index": 1, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having me. How much time do we have to answer this question?"}
{"id": "781579229", "date": "2019-11-21", "guest": "Ben Freeman", "title": "Ukrainian Oligarchs And The Influence Of Foreign Money On American Politics", "question_index": 2, "text": "We have been hearing about Trump administration pressure on Ukraine to investigate the Bidens in order to receive the promised military aid to Ukraine, but influence went the other way too. And I'd like to talk with you about that, how Ukraine tried to influence U.S. policy. In the Trump administration, Giuliani is currently under investigation, and I believe one of the things he's being investigated for is being an unregistered lobbyist for Ukraine. What is he suspected of having done as an unregistered lobbyist?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's sort of a short list of folks there. And I think probably the most recognizable is Paul Manafort, but we have other folks like Michael Flynn and Carter Page too. And it would appear that Roger"}
{"id": "781579229", "date": "2019-11-21", "guest": "Ben Freeman", "title": "Ukrainian Oligarchs And The Influence Of Foreign Money On American Politics", "question_index": 3, "text": "Do you have any idea what a Ukrainian oligarch, or plural Ukrainian oligarchs, might have wanted from the U.S.?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Quite a bit, actually. When we look at Giuliani's behavior overseas, he ostensibly, according to his own accounting, was working exclusively for the president of the United States. But what we've alre"}
{"id": "781579229", "date": "2019-11-21", "guest": "Ben Freeman", "title": "Ukrainian Oligarchs And The Influence Of Foreign Money On American Politics", "question_index": 4, "text": "So oligarchs in Ukraine don't want Ukrainian corruption investigated?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There are actually many issues between the U.S. and Ukraine, but one of the principal issues is the issue of corruption in Ukraine. And corruption, for a variety of reasons, is endemic in Ukraine. Bri"}
{"id": "781579229", "date": "2019-11-21", "guest": "Ben Freeman", "title": "Ukrainian Oligarchs And The Influence Of Foreign Money On American Politics", "question_index": 5, "text": "And would examples of that be Giuliani's associates Lev Parnas and Igor Fruman?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's exactly right. It's been a big issue for the U.S. As the U.S. tries to pull Ukraine out of the Russian orbit, a big part of those efforts from the U.S. is to clamp down on corruption in U"}
{"id": "781579229", "date": "2019-11-21", "guest": "Ben Freeman", "title": "Ukrainian Oligarchs And The Influence Of Foreign Money On American Politics", "question_index": 6, "text": "U.S. politicians.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's exactly right, Terry. A big part of what Parnas and Fruman and their other associates were doing was to try and garner influence on behalf of some of these Ukrainian interests. It include"}
{"id": "781579229", "date": "2019-11-21", "guest": "Ben Freeman", "title": "Ukrainian Oligarchs And The Influence Of Foreign Money On American Politics", "question_index": 7, "text": "Did those contributions include money to a pro-Trump PAC?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "U.S. politicians, yeah, that's correct. And it was kind of a who's who of U.S. politicians too. It went all the way up the line to President Donald Trump. There are photos of Parnas and Fruman with th"}
{"id": "781579229", "date": "2019-11-21", "guest": "Ben Freeman", "title": "Ukrainian Oligarchs And The Influence Of Foreign Money On American Politics", "question_index": 8, "text": "So can you connect the dots for us between Giuliani's role as an unregistered lobbyist for Ukraine trying to influence American policy in a way that favored oligarchs - connect that to his role having this irregular channel to Ukraine trying to make U.S. military aid to Ukraine conditional on the Ukrainian government investigating the Bidens?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, they did. There were contributions to a pro-Trump super PAC and a number of high-profile Republican officials too. And by and large, the scheme they hatched, it did - it worked. And they were abl"}
{"id": "781579229", "date": "2019-11-21", "guest": "Ben Freeman", "title": "Ukrainian Oligarchs And The Influence Of Foreign Money On American Politics", "question_index": 9, "text": "So we're talking about two sets of people in Ukraine - the oligarchs, who are connected to Russia and have a lot of business interests, and then the relatively new government in Ukraine, headed by Presidents Zelenskiy, who got elected on an anti-corruption platform.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think with Giuliani, we have kind of a classic case of playing both sides. And we know from Giuliani's own statements and from Trump that he was serving as the president's personal lawyer in that ca"}
{"id": "781579229", "date": "2019-11-21", "guest": "Ben Freeman", "title": "Ukrainian Oligarchs And The Influence Of Foreign Money On American Politics", "question_index": 10, "text": "I don't know if this is outside of what you've been studying, but what are Giuliani's business interests in Ukraine?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's absolutely correct. And Zelenskiy is really finding himself in, I think, a very unfortunate position in that he gets elected on this anti-corruption platform. And, you know, it's clear fr"}
{"id": "781579229", "date": "2019-11-21", "guest": "Ben Freeman", "title": "Ukrainian Oligarchs And The Influence Of Foreign Money On American Politics", "question_index": 11, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Ben Freeman, and he's the director of the Foreign Influence Transparency Initiative at the Center for International Policy. We'll be right back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Really, Terry, I think that's kind of the million-dollar question. Actually, that's probably the multi-million-dollar question that I think a lot of investigators would like to know and I think are un"}
{"id": "781579229", "date": "2019-11-21", "guest": "Ben Freeman", "title": "Ukrainian Oligarchs And The Influence Of Foreign Money On American Politics", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is Ben Freeman, and he investigates foreign influence on American politics. He's the director of the Foreign Influence Transparency Initiative at the Center for International Policy and author of the 2012 book \"The Foreign Policy Auction.\" So the Ukraine connections that we've been talking about and the unregistered lobbying that we've been talking about relate to the impeachment inquiry, the investigation underway now. Let's just kind of dial back a little bit and look at the Mueller investigation because Ukraine was a part of that, too. Paul Manafort and his business associate Rick Gates had deep connections to Ukraine. Was Manafort an unregistered lobbyist for Ukraine?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Really, Terry, I think that's kind of the million-dollar question. Actually, that's probably the multi-million-dollar question that I think a lot of investigators would like to know and I think are un"}
{"id": "781579229", "date": "2019-11-21", "guest": "Ben Freeman", "title": "Ukrainian Oligarchs And The Influence Of Foreign Money On American Politics", "question_index": 13, "text": "Who was a pro-Russia president.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Paul Manafort was convicted of being an unregistered foreign agent for the work that he did in Ukraine, and he was also convicted of other crimes as well. But a big part of the work he was doing"}
{"id": "781579229", "date": "2019-11-21", "guest": "Ben Freeman", "title": "Ukrainian Oligarchs And The Influence Of Foreign Money On American Politics", "question_index": 14, "text": "Do you have any sense of why Ukraine is connected to two different ends of the Trump administration? You know, you've got Manafort on the one hand, and then you've got Giuliani and this irregular channel on the other hand. And Giuliani is the president's personal lawyer but, you know, obviously very connected to the Trump administration.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A pro-Russia president - yeah. That's exactly right. And I think it's fair to say that Yanukovych was very much part of the corrupt system in Ukraine that the Ukrainian people, I think, you know, had "}
{"id": "781579229", "date": "2019-11-21", "guest": "Ben Freeman", "title": "Ukrainian Oligarchs And The Influence Of Foreign Money On American Politics", "question_index": 15, "text": "So, you've got, you know, the Manafort end and the Giuliani end. I don't know if they were ever coordinated or not, but it seems to - the Ukraine connection seems to be coming from separate directions.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "781579229", "date": "2019-11-21", "guest": "Ben Freeman", "title": "Ukrainian Oligarchs And The Influence Of Foreign Money On American Politics", "question_index": 16, "text": "How do you think the Citizens United decision, which opened the door for corporations to contribute unlimited money to campaigns, equating campaign contributions to free speech - how do you think the Citizens United decision has affected the ability of other countries to influence American elections?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, I think that's exactly right. And I don't think we know yet whether there is a Giuliani-Manafort connection. I wouldn't be too surprised if we later learned that there was that connection."}
{"id": "781579229", "date": "2019-11-21", "guest": "Ben Freeman", "title": "Ukrainian Oligarchs And The Influence Of Foreign Money On American Politics", "question_index": 17, "text": "My guest is Ben Freeman, director of the Foreign Influence Transparency Initiative at the Center for International Policy. We'll talk more after a break, and we'll hear from Lisa Henson and Toby Froud, the executive producer and the design supervisor of the Netflix series \"The Dark Crystal.\" It's a prequel to the 1982 film that was directed by Lisa's father, Jim Henson. The series, like the film, is entirely performed by puppets. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think Citizens United - in many ways, it opened up a kind of Pandora's box of opportunities for foreign money and foreign influence to get into U.S. elections. One of the first examples that I'll sa"}
{"id": "781579229", "date": "2019-11-21", "guest": "Ben Freeman", "title": "Ukrainian Oligarchs And The Influence Of Foreign Money On American Politics", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Ben Freeman about foreign influence in American politics. He directs the Foreign Influence Transparency Initiative at the Center for International Policy. He's also the author of the 2012 book \"The Foreign Policy Auction.\" He's an expert on the Foreign Agents Registration Act, which requires lobbyists from foreign countries to register with the U.S. government. Failure to do so figured into cases against Trump's former campaign manager, Paul Manafort, and former National Security Adviser Michael Flynn. It's the Foreign Agent Registration Act that requires people who are lobbying on behalf of a foreign power to register with the U.S. government as a foreign lobbyist. What are some of the other things that the Foreign Agent Registration Act requires foreign lobbyists to do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think Citizens United - in many ways, it opened up a kind of Pandora's box of opportunities for foreign money and foreign influence to get into U.S. elections. One of the first examples that I'll sa"}
{"id": "781579229", "date": "2019-11-21", "guest": "Ben Freeman", "title": "Ukrainian Oligarchs And The Influence Of Foreign Money On American Politics", "question_index": 19, "text": "You said that the American political system is at a historical high point in its vulnerability to foreign influence because there are so many avenues for foreign money to have an impact on U.S. elections now. We know a lot now about social media and how foreign powers, including Russia, have manipulated our social media. But what are some of the other avenues for foreign influence on American politics?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "FARA actually began as an anti-propaganda statute in 1938. And the reason FARA was initially enacted was because of Nazi propagandists in the U.S. And it's one of the few issues in our sort of hyperbo"}
{"id": "781579229", "date": "2019-11-21", "guest": "Ben Freeman", "title": "Ukrainian Oligarchs And The Influence Of Foreign Money On American Politics", "question_index": 20, "text": "Can you give an example of a foreign agent influencing or helping to write an article or to do a feature in a newspaper or broadcasting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Unfortunately, the number of avenues available to foreign powers to influence U.S. democracy are quite immense. And I like to take the approach of looking inside out from Washington, D.C. Right here i"}
{"id": "781579229", "date": "2019-11-21", "guest": "Ben Freeman", "title": "Ukrainian Oligarchs And The Influence Of Foreign Money On American Politics", "question_index": 21, "text": "From Minnesota.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, sure. A couple years ago, a man named Norm Coleman - he produced an op-ed in The Hill. And Norm Coleman might ring a bell to some listeners because he's a former senator - Norm Coleman..."}
{"id": "781579229", "date": "2019-11-21", "guest": "Ben Freeman", "title": "Ukrainian Oligarchs And The Influence Of Foreign Money On American Politics", "question_index": 22, "text": "What countries do you think are using money most effectively right now to influence policy in the U.S. or to influence elections in the U.S.?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...From Minnesota, yes. And Norm Coleman's a senator. And so his tag line in the op-ed that he wrote in The Hill that was quite favorable to Saudi Arabia - it just mentioned that he's a former senator"}
{"id": "781579229", "date": "2019-11-21", "guest": "Ben Freeman", "title": "Ukrainian Oligarchs And The Influence Of Foreign Money On American Politics", "question_index": 23, "text": "Well, Ben Freeman, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a really tough question, actually, because the nation has been so focused on Russian interference. And I think rightfully so, in many ways. I mean, the Russians very clearly tried to hijack the"}
{"id": "781579229", "date": "2019-11-21", "guest": "Ben Freeman", "title": "Ukrainian Oligarchs And The Influence Of Foreign Money On American Politics", "question_index": 24, "text": "Ben Freeman directs the Foreign Influence Transparency Initiative at the Center for International Policy. After a break, we'll hear from Lisa Henson and Toby Froud, the executive producer and the design supervisor of the Netflix series \"The Dark Crystal,\" a prequel to the 1982 film that was directed by Lisa's father Jim Henson. The series, like the film, is entirely performed by puppets. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me, Terry."}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Adam Cohen, welcome to FRESH AIR. I just want to start by saying I loved your father's music. I loved his writing. And I feel privileged to have had the chance to hear him in concert and to talk with him on our show. And I'm grateful for the chance to talk with you today. So thank you for being here. When I interviewed your father in 2006, after the publication of a book of his poems and songs, he asked to read a poem that he'd just written that hadn't yet been published. But it's now published in this new book, \"The Flame.\" So I thought it would be a perfect way to start with your father's reading of that poem, \"A Street,\" from our 2006 interview.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I was always working steady, but I never called it art. I got my [expletive] together, meeting Christ and reading Marx. It failed my little fire, but it's bright, the dying spark. Go tell th"}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 1, "text": "That's Leonard Cohen recorded on our show in 2006. His son, Adam Cohen, is my guest. And the new posthumous collection of Leonard Cohen's final poems, lyrics, notebooks and drawings is called \"The Flame.\" It's just been published, and it includes the poem that we just heard. Adam, what does it mean to you to have so much of your father's latest, you know, his - the work he did before he died collected in this new book?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) I used to be your favorite drunk, good for one more laugh. Then we both ran out of luck, and luck was all we had. You put on a uniform to fight the Civil War. I tried to join, but no one lik"}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 2, "text": "You wrote a very eloquent introduction, which I will be quoting as time goes on here", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, first of all, I'm just so struck by hearing my father's voice, which I seem to be listening to almost more than I ever did, even when he was alive. I love his poetry. I love his words. I lov"}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, first of all, I'm just so struck by hearing my father's voice, which I seem to be listening to almost more than I ever did, even when he was alive. I love his poetry. I love his words. I lov"}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 4, "text": "So I think you've said he left behind, like, lockers' worth of notebooks. What are you doing with them? I mean, you're describing - like, he was always writing. There was always, like, cocktail napkins and pages and - in his pockets. You found a notebook in the freezer once. So what are you doing with the findings?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 5, "text": "I want to play the title song on the final album that was released when your father, Leonard Cohen, was still alive. It's called \"You Want It Darker.\" And then we'll talk about working with him on it. And this is - it's - what can I say? It's a great song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's amazing. There's so much paperwork to go through. From the simplest point of view, there's the archival work, which is assembling everything and trying to pay homage to it for posterity. Th"}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 6, "text": "That's Leonard Cohen from the final album that was released while he was alive, the title track, \"You Want It Darker.\" My guest is his son, Adam Cohen, who wrote the introduction to a new collection of Leonard Cohen's final poems, notebook entries, lyrics and drawings called \"The Flame.\" That song is so much about facing death and of having a God who allows suffering and accepting the suffering but yet not being, like, happy about it or trying to make it seem like suffering's great", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If you are the dealer, I'm out of the game. If you are the healer, it means I'm broken and lame. If thine is the glory, then mine must be the shame. You want it darker, we kill the flame. Magnified, s"}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 7, "text": ". You know, he's not trying to be spiritual in a dismissive way of all the suffering that we endure. I want to read what he wrote about you for the liner notes of this album. He wrote that without your contribution there would be no record. He said, (reading) at a certain point, after over a year of intense labor, both Pat - who wrote the melodies - and I coincidentally broke down with severe back injuries and other disagreeable visitations. In my case, the situation was bleak, the discomfort acute, and the project was abandoned. (Reading) Adam sensed that my recovery, if not my survival, depended on my getting back to work. He took over the project, established me in a medical chair to sing and brought these unfinished songs to completion, preserving of course many of Pat's haunting musical themes. It is because of my son's loving encouragement and skilled administration that these songs exist in their present form. I cannot thank him enough. What were you able to do for him physically to make it possible for him to record the album? He mentions you put him in a medical chair. Can you describe the setup that you helped create for him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If you are the dealer, I'm out of the game. If you are the healer, it means I'm broken and lame. If thine is the glory, then mine must be the shame. You want it darker, we kill the flame. Magnified, s"}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 8, "text": "I'm going to ask you to read a poem that's published in the new collection, in the posthumous collection of Leonard Cohen's works. So is there something that you could choose that would be relevant to what we're talking about now?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview from last year with singer-songwriter Adam Cohen, the son of singer-songwriter Leonard Cohen. A posthumous new Leonard Cohen album, \"Thanks For T"}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 9, "text": "I'm wondering if you think that's because, like, when your father sang his songs or read his poems, there was this really dark quality, but there was this, like, kind of existential distance from it at the same time and a transcendent quality as well that made for a really complicated mix of emotion. Is that what is troubling you about the idea of you reading the poems yourself, that he brought this kind of just - you know, even through his voice, this complicated quality of whatever pain or anguish and spirituality he was expressing at the same time, and that you don't feel like you could?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know what? I don't want to read these poems. I think that in some way or another, if we could urge people to consult the work with smaller samples - otherwise, it takes a kind of lugubrious tone t"}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 10, "text": "I appreciate you saying that as his son. But as a fan of your father's work, I will say that he performed his work in concerts to large crowds of people. And there are so many performers who have performed his songs. So they have - his work has a life outside of his mouth.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's simpler than that. You know, I'm reminded of so, so many lines in which he talked about the solitude of the experience of reading. And there's so many poems in which he alludes to the ide"}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 11, "text": "And his work has a life outside of the solitary experience of a reader sitting alone in his room, quietly reading his poems. So I just...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank goodness."}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 12, "text": "...Want to get on the record", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, and his..."}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 13, "text": "as saying that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, and his..."}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, since you've declined to read more poems by your father, I'm going to play him reading...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, and I'll go one step further with what you're saying just because I don't believe that they're contradictory in a sense. I mean, this is a man who's put the word hallelujah on many - on millions o"}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 15, "text": "No, it's just - I'd be lying if I didn't say it was a little disappointing. But I can live with that. So I thought I'd play your father reading another poem of his from the interview that we recorded in 2006. And this is a poem called \"Titles.\" And it was published in a book that he did in 2006 of poems and lyrics. So this is Leonard Cohen recorded in 2006 on FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I hope I'm not being cantankerous or intransigent."}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 16, "text": "I think that poem, Adam, gets to a little about what you were talking about - the connection of your father writing in solitude and the reader reading alone...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) I had the title poet. And maybe I was one for a while. Also, the title singer was kindly accorded me, even though I could barely carry a tune. For many years, I was known as a monk. I shaved"}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 17, "text": "...And entering his solitude, yeah. solitude.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And as you noted..."}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 18, "text": "Absolutely.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As you noted, also a kind of humor, you know, embedded."}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 19, "text": "Is there a song you remember from your childhood that sticks in your mind, a song that meant a lot to you, maybe even a song you remember your father writing?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's interview from last year with singer-songwriter Adam Cohen, the son of singer-songwriter Leonard Cohen. Adam produ"}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 20, "text": "You remember him writing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, when I was really young, I remember him composing \"Hallelujah.\""}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Yeah. So for \"Hallelujah,\" as you say, there were 84 verses. I don't think he ever recorded all 84.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So, you know, it started when I was very, very young. I'd hear verses. I think there were 84 verses to that song. I remember coming down to the kitchen table. And he was there with a nylon-string gu"}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 22, "text": "But did it take 12 years and 84 verses before he considered it completed because of dissatisfaction with the verses that he'd previously written or because there was still so much he wanted to say in the format of that song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Do you think he was frustrated working on it for so long or that it was satisfying?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As the - a popular poem states, a poem is never finished but rather abandoned."}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 24, "text": "You know, you quote that, you know, some people subscribe to the philosophy first thought, best thought. And that's often attributed to one of the beat writers, but that your father believed last thought, best thought.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think frustration was expected. The success of being able to let it go was the unexpected. You know, I think he - as I say, he was very vocational. From the earliest stage, he would wake up earlier "}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 25, "text": "So he edited - I take it he edited his songs a lot. He went through a lot of drafts.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he believed..."}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 26, "text": "So why don't we hear \"Hallelujah,\" your father's version?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a constant process of filtration and refinement for certain."}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 27, "text": "OK, so this is Leonard Cohen - yeah, go ahead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 28, "text": "Oh, is that right? Is that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "..."}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 29, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I get - yeah, it feels like a transgression. Yeah."}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 30, "text": "Because...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Please refrain from playing \"Hallelujah.\""}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 31, "text": "So in spite of the moratorium your family has on \"Hallelujah,\" I think we'll play it anyways. Are you OK with that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It was partly a joke and partly his own exhaustion, I think, with the song."}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 32, "text": "OK. So here it is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, God. Yeah, I'm going to report you to the bully police."}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 33, "text": "That's Leonard Cohen singing \"Hallelujah,\" and my guest is Leonard Cohen's son, Adam Cohen. And there's a - he wrote the introduction to a new collection of posthumously-published Leonard Cohen lyrics, poems, notebook entries and drawings. And it's called \"The Flame.\" So, you know, \"Hallelujah\" - I think like 200 people have recorded \"Hallelujah.\" And - but it didn't become well-known until Jeff Buckley recorded it, like, maybe 10 years or more after your father recorded it, which is just so strange. But it's a sign of how, I think, there was a period of years when your father's genius wasn't fully acknowledged. When - you know, he had the initial period of hits. And then I think people just - a lot of people just kind of drifted away and then rediscovered him. And what was it like for you and for him during that period when, I think, he'd been a little bit forgotten?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Your faith was strong, but you needed proof."}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 34, "text": "When I saw him probably in the late 2000s - like 2009 maybe, I can't remember what year it was - was kind of like being in a church or a synagogue. There was this", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I feel like my father probably felt like his whole life was characterized by that description, that he'd been forgotten - forgotten by the angels, forgotten by the, you know, cupid, forgotten by - I"}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 35, "text": "sense of, like, the devotion of his fans to him and his devotion to the music and to things larger. And he ended it with what struck me as a benediction. And I forget exactly what he said. But, you know, to those of you who are going home, you know, to your families, enjoy your families. And to those of you who live alone, enjoy your solitude. And I thought, like, people don't say that. That's such a beautiful thing to say. It's such a lovely way of sending people home and sending home people who are going home alone. Enjoy your solitude.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I feel like my father probably felt like his whole life was characterized by that description, that he'd been forgotten - forgotten by the angels, forgotten by the, you know, cupid, forgotten by - I"}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 36, "text": "Yeah, that's what - that was it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. May these songs find you in your solitude. May the blessings..."}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 37, "text": "I thought that was just beautiful.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, the exact quote is, \"may the blessings find you in your solitude.\""}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 38, "text": "So you were born in 1972. Some of your father's most famous songs were already written and recorded by the time you were born - \"Suzanne,\" \"So Long, Marianne,\" \"Hey, That's No Way To Say Goodbye,\" \"Bird On The Wire,\" \"Chelsea Hotel,\" \"Who By Fire.\" So did you hear them a...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview from last year with singer-songwriter Adam Cohen, the son of singer-songwriter Leonard Cohen. A new Leonard Cohen album, \"Thanks For The Dance,\" "}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 39, "text": "So did you hear them a lot when you were growing up? I mean, so, like, when I was growing up, I thought about songs and singers. But I didn't think about songwriters, you know. I just thought about, like, what's the song and who's singing it? But you were - your father was a songwriter. So you must have had an awareness that songwriting was a craft. It's something people actually did. And you must've been - like, grown up with these songs. I don't know if he played them around the house. I don't know if you even heard them when you were young.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Are you saying he didn't need me?"}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 40, "text": "Oh, of course. Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course I heard them. Yeah, no, I was a 5-year-old on the side of stages watching them being performed and..."}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 41, "text": "How old were you when your parents separated?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Looking out into the - looking at the faces of audiences, you know, in different times and places. And I was a deep, deep admirer of the melodies of - at first, you know, as a child, just the melod"}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 42, "text": "So how much did you get to see your father after that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Five, 6 - I don't remember."}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 43, "text": "So a caravan is like a mobile home?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "vivid colors and dimensions. And the fact that my father was able to stay in his children's life despite those complications and then some was remarkable - is remarkable to me. My mother moved my sist"}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 44, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. The - like, what do you call those? Like a Jetstream kind of thing."}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 45, "text": "How long did he do that for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And my mother didn't want him on the property. So, you know, every day after school, the bus would drop us off. And we'd see dad in his caravan. And so I remember..."}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 46, "text": "There's something really terrible that happened to him that in its own way is maybe responsible for the revival of his career and for his reconnection to people around the world. And that's - he had an accountant or a business manager who, like, drained your father's savings and sold the publishing rights to your father's song. That's kind of like stealing his soul to sell all the publishing rights to his songs. I mean, that just seems like such a transgression. And like, I think it's your sister who discovered that it happened. Like, your father didn't even know.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he did that and variations of that throughout my entire life. And, you know, as I say, the intent to be part of his children's life - the deliberateness with which he contorted his own life and "}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 47, "text": "So did he ever get the song rights back? Because...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "with the canon of his work and with his devotion to blackening pages in melody that he built the life he built for himself. And when he experienced this episode that you're referring to, it actually d"}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 48, "text": "...It seem it - really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "781612620", "date": "2019-11-22", "guest": "Leonard Cohen", "title": "Collection Showcases Leonard Cohen Was 'Preoccupied With Brokenness'", "question_index": 49, "text": "Adam Cohen, I really appreciate you doing this. I know you're not very comfortable talking about your father or even talking about yourself in this kind of setting. So thank you again so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. No, those are gone."}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. After Donald Trump was elected but before he was inaugurated, BuzzFeed published a leaked document that became known as the Steele dossier - a series of memos written by former British intelligence officer Christopher Steele suggesting Russia had been cultivating, supporting and assisting Trump and that, according to several sources, Russia had compromising information that could be used to blackmail Trump. This dossier had been commissioned by Fusion GPS, a private research company providing research for law firms and corporations as well as opposition research for political candidates. Fusion was first hired to investigate Trump during the primary by the Republican news site The Washington Free Beacon. After Trump won the primary, the law firm representing Hillary Clinton's campaign and the Democratic National Committee started funding Fusion's research into Trump. My guests are the founders of Fusion GPS, Glenn Simpson and Peter Fritsch. They're former Wall Street Journal reporters. Some of the Russians who surfaced in the Trump investigation were people Simpson and Fritsch had reported on at The Wall Street Journal while investigating Russian corruption and organized crime. Simpson and Fritsch have written a new book called \"Crime In Progress\" about their investigation into Trump, its impact and Republican attempts to discredit Fusion GPS and the Steele dossier. Glenn Simpson, Peter Fritsch, welcome to FRESH AIR. What were some of the findings in your report and in the Steele dossier that you consider to be the most important early warnings of Donald Trump's ties to Russia?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 1, "text": "And what was Christopher Steele doing when you approached him? And who - tell them who Christopher Steele is for people who don't know.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The truth is Chris Steele came into this project about nine months in. We started looking at Donald Trump and his relationship to Russia as part of a much broader project, which was looking at Donald "}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 2, "text": "And he had worked for British intelligence at the Russian desk, so he knew a lot about...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Chris and I were introduced around 2010. And we met through some mutual friends who knew of our shared interest in Russian corruption and kleptocracy. Chris is a Russia specialist. We are real gene"}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 3, "text": "So just to get straight how your work has been funded - both by Republican interests and Democratic interests - just briefly explain for us the source of your funding through this whole project that you've had investigating Trump-Russia ties.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Chris was the - the term that they use there is the lead Russianist. He essentially ran the Russia desk at headquarters in London after having served previously in Moscow around the time of the fall o"}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 4, "text": "And so who hired you from the Democrats?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In this late summer of 2015, I connected with a Republican political operative who I knew was going to probably be involved in the presidential campaign in the primaries. And I asked him if he would b"}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 5, "text": "So let's get back to your work with Christopher Steele, the former British intelligence officer who was a Russia expert. And - so he compiled a series of memos that came to be known as the Steele dossier. Tell us some of the things in those memos that you think have been most important in revealing information that was validated about Russia or Russia's connections to Donald Trump.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So we were hired eventually by Perkins Coie, a law firm, and an attorney there named Marc Elias. Marc represents both the Democratic National Committee and Hillary - the Hillary Clinton campaign at th"}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 6, "text": "What's one or two of the things in the dossier that proved not to be true?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There are other important aspects of these memos that have stood up quite well. They identify about a half-dozen people associated with the Trump campaign or the president in one way or another who la"}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 7, "text": "You had said that he was one of the people at that meeting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's important remember..."}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Right. That's what the memo said, yes. Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's what the memo said."}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 9, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guests are Glenn Simpson and Peter Fritsch, the co-founders of Fusion GPS. They're the authors of the new book \"Crime In Progress: Inside The Steele Dossier And The Fusion GPS Investigation Of Donald Trump.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. I would say it's important remember that much of the evidence of these matters lies in a foreign country, beyond the reach of U.S. law enforcement and certainly the reach of Robert Mueller. On "}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guests are Glenn Simpson and Peter Fritsch, co-founders of Fusion GPS and author of the new book \"Crime In Progress: Inside The Steele Dossier And The Fusion GPS Investigation Of Donald Trump.\" The most famous part, or infamous part, of the so-called Steele dossier, the series of memos that Christopher Steele assembled for you investigating Russia's interference in our election and Donald Trump's ties to Russia, was the so-called pee tape. And this is the tape that several sources told Christopher Steele exists. There's no confirmation that this tape exists. Explain what the pee tape is for somebody who hasn't been following it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. I would say it's important remember that much of the evidence of these matters lies in a foreign country, beyond the reach of U.S. law enforcement and certainly the reach of Robert Mueller. On "}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Yes, go ahead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So the tape, as you put it, is a recounting of source reporting from Moscow that alleges that Donald Trump in 2013, while he was attending the Miss Universe pageant that he sponsored in collabo"}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 12, "text": "So there was a conflict between both of you about whether to include this allegation in your report or not. I want...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The..."}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 13, "text": "Yeah?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, that's..."}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 14, "text": "And this was evidence that Christopher Steele feared could be used to basically blackmail Donald Trump?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's - no. Glenn was alluding to - there was a dispute. I wouldn't call it a dispute. There was a discussion inside Orbis, the - Christopher Steele's firm, with his partner, who is also a fellow Bri"}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 15, "text": "That's why you decided to have the Steele dossier be a separate document from your findings...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct. And in our office, we felt that this information wasn't all that significant and could only cause a lot of problems because it wasn't really something that had much application to the preside"}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 16, "text": "...Without you editing it at all. Like, this is what he found. This is what he heard from sources and that will stand alone.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. We..."}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yeah. Well, discuss that decision because this is a real turning point in your investigation and in the whole larger Russia investigation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. It's important to point out that the decision to approach the FBI was Chris'. You know, we acceded. We deferred to him. He is the intelligence professional. We're..."}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 18, "text": "So unbeknownst to you, the FBI was also independently investigating Russia's interference in the election and possible ties between Donald Trump and Russia. But Christopher Steele - yes. Go ahead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So in early July, Chris arranged to meet with a contact of his at the FBI in Europe, someone he knew from previous work. He asked us if that was a good idea. And we didn't disagree. It's import"}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 19, "text": "So who was that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this is an amazing point in the story, which is that we now know - we've now pieced together the beginnings of the FBI investigation juxtaposed against the beginnings of Chris' interactions with"}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 20, "text": "You never intended the dossier to be public, as you said. And you both didn't directly go to the FBI; that was Christopher Steele who did that. But you did start approaching journalists. Why did you start approaching journalists? What did you want to tell them? What did you want them to do with the information?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And this is how investigations begin is that both the government of Australia and us reacted to the revelations that the Russians had hacked the DNC. And so, essentially, the FBI had information comin"}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 21, "text": "My guests are Glenn Simpson and Peter Fritsch, co-founders of Fusion GPS. Their new book is called \"Crime In Progress.\" We'll talk more after a break. And Justin Chang will review the new film \"Knives Out.\" I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Initially, in the summer of 2016, we were concerned that certain people around the Trump campaign and in the Trump campaign were of questionable character. Paul Manafort was someone that we knew a lot"}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Glenn Simpson and Peter Fritsch, co-founders of Fusion GPS, a private research company which did opposition research on candidate Donald Trump and commissioned what became known as the Steele dossier, which uncovered connections between Donald Trump and Russia and cited several sources that said Russia had a compromising video of Trump with prostitutes - a golden showers video that could be used to blackmail him. The dossier was written by former British intelligence officer Christopher Steele, who was commissioned to do the research by Fusion GPS. Simpson and Fritsch are both former Wall Street Journal reporters. Now they have a new book about their investigation into Trump and Russia called \"Crime In Progress.\" They say their report and the Steele dossier were never intended to be made public. But the dossier was leaked and published by BuzzFeed. When BuzzFeed actually published the dossier, you were furious and you were kind of afraid of what the consequences might be. You had put Christopher Steele in front of journalists already. So why were you so upset when the dossier was actually published by BuzzFeed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Watch it. I was born in a crossfire hurricane. And I howled at the morning driving rain..."}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Refresh our memory about when BuzzFeed published the Steele dossier.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This has become more common knowledge now in the wake of the 2016 election that Russia - the Russian intelligence services have a overseas assassination program. But it's well-known to us - and partic"}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 24, "text": "So it was after the election. It could no longer affect the outcome of the election.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "BuzzFeed published a dossier on - excuse me - January 10, 2017."}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Who was the leaker?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The ultimate Hail Mary pass and ill-advised."}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 26, "text": "Are you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So there was a John McCain - a person who was close to John McCain by the name of David Kramer, who's a former - worked in the State Department for human rights for many years and is a - an avowed Rus"}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 27, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For the express - sorry..."}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 28, "text": "So the purpose was to get the document to McCain and then to the FBI, not to leak it to the press.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...For the express purpose of handing the document to John McCain for the purpose of approaching James Comey about it."}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 29, "text": "So has this aide admitted that he was the one who leaked it? Or is this...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 30, "text": "...Just your theory?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 31, "text": "Do you find it ironic that it was an aide of John McCain's who made the dossier public in the hopes of preventing Donald Trump from actually getting inaugurated? And it's Lindsey Graham, one of McCain's closest friends, who has been one of the leaders trying to question the Mueller report, trying to question the research that you did and supporting Donald Trump?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And other people."}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 32, "text": "Well, wait. Wait. Wait. Let's just stop right there 'cause the Republicans who paid for the first part of your investigation were people who were opposing Trump. They were Republicans, but they wanted another Republican to win the primary, not Trump.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Lindsey Graham..."}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 33, "text": "So let's talk about what's been happening more recently, and that's the impeachment inquiry. Republicans cited your report 32 times in the impeachment inquiry. They were saying you colluded with Russians. Why don't you describe what you heard Republicans say about you during the impeachment inquiry?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's important remember that Lindsey Graham, as John McCain and others have recounted, agreed with John McCain's decision to approach James Comey with this document. Fast-forward to the moment in Janu"}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 34, "text": "Well, Glenn, you actually ran into Rudy Giuliani on a plane recently and told him you've never been in Ukraine.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Rudolph Giuliani has gone so far as to accuse Glenn of going to Ukraine in 2016 and working with the Ukrainians to cook up the dossier. That is just a lie."}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 35, "text": "OK. Let's take a short break here, and when we come back, we'll talk about how Fusion GPS was criticized during the impeachment inquiry by Republicans. So if you're just joining us, my guests are Glenn Simpson and Peter Fritsch, co-founders of Fusion GPS. Their new book is called \"Crime In Progress: Inside The Steel Dossier And The Fusion GPS Investigation Of Donald Trump.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That meeting was set up by Donald Trump Jr. and Russia."}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 36, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guests are Glenn Simpson and Peter Fritsch. They're the co-founders of Fusion GPS and authors of the new book \"Crime In Progress: Inside The Steal Dossier And The Fusion GPS Investigation Of Donald Trump.\" So you started off as journalists. I mean, you were journalists for years. And then when you were both based in Brussels, Glenn, you were an investigative reporter still, and Peter, you were his editor there. Do I have that right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That meeting was set up by Donald Trump Jr. and Russia."}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 37, "text": "Yeah. So you were investigative - you were journalists, like, for years for The Wall Street Journal, and then you decided to form this business, Fusion GPS, and basically do investigative research for hire. And I want you to talk a little bit about the different standards being a journalist versus being research for hire. And your clients have included not only, like, you know, Republicans and Democrats but also, you know, large corporations, legal firms. So talk about the differences in the way you went about your work but also in the standards that you would use for - you know, the ethical standards.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 38, "text": "Can we describe some of what you've been doing as opposition research?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The business is designed to use journalistic methods, and so it's, essentially, in terms of standards, very similar. Newspapers talk to people. Newspapers talk to people. They don't always know whethe"}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 39, "text": "But it's even opposition research for the corporate clients that you have, isn't it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We do very little political research, actually."}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 40, "text": "And does it matter who your client is? Like, if your client is a corporate client and you actually suspect that they were in the wrong, would you still represent them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I wouldn't call it opposition research. It's more a - understanding an information set, right? So there are a lot of complicated disputes in the context of lawsuits, obviously, but also influenc"}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 41, "text": "You know, as a journalist, you're committed to just, like, finding the facts, reporting what you found and not being concerned with, you know, taking sides. In fact, you're not supposed to take sides. But, you know, when you're - you know, particularly if you're reporting for, you know, like, The Wall Street Journal, The Washington Post, The New York Times, it's about, you know, being fair and being neutral in finding the facts. But when your reporting is paid for by a particular side - Republican or Democrat - or when your reporting is paid for by a particular legal group or by a company, it's about getting information for that side. So was that a difficult transition for you to make? And do you feel like you're no longer, you know, just on the side of fact-finding and truth when you're doing that, when you have an interested party paying for information?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, there's one example which, you know, we talk about in the book which maybe is useful here. We talk about, very briefly, our work for Theranos, the blood testing company run by Elizabeth Holmes"}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 42, "text": "Have you ever turned down a client?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If you saw one of our reports, you would mistake it for an academic paper."}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 43, "text": "Is there any information you can share with us about what you're finding about foreign interference in the next presidential election?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We actually force clients to submit to our methodology, which is - you know, if you have a preconceived outcome in mind and you're looking for specifically a media outcome, we're the wrong people. You"}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 44, "text": "Before we wrap up, I'd like to ask, is there information that you found while you were researching Trump campaign ties to Russia and Russia's interference in our election that you don't think enough attention has been paid to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, foreign interference in our elections actually has a fairly long history. It's just not something that a lot of people know much about or focused on. In 2016, we believe at least three countries"}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 45, "text": "This was Maria Butina.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. One of the things that we came across ourselves that didn't really involve Chris Steele was the Russian infiltration of the National Rifle Association, which was something that I brought to the a"}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 46, "text": "I want to thank both of you for talking with us. Glenn Simpson, Peter Fritsch, thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The other thing that I think still is left outstanding that we spend some time talking about in the book is the extent to which Donald Trump's overseas ventures have been - have not been parsed proper"}
{"id": "782908119", "date": "2019-11-26", "guest": "Peter Fritsch", "title": "Fusion GPS Founders On Russian Efforts To Sow Discord: 'They Have Succeeded'", "question_index": 47, "text": "Glenn Simpson and Peter Fritsch are the founders of Fusion GPS. Their new book is called \"Crime In Progress.\" After we take a short break, Justin Chang will review the new film \"Knives Out.\" I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Happy Thanksgiving. We're going to spend the holiday listening to some great music by Prince and hearing about his life.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 1, "text": "Before Prince died, he'd started writing a memoir. He wanted a writing partner he could open up to. After rejecting several high-profile names, he settled on my guest, Dan Piepenbring, who was definitely not famous. Piepenbring was a 29-year-old editor of the literary magazine Paris Review. Just a few months after their first meeting, Prince died of an opioid overdose on April 21, 2016. Prince had left behind the pages he'd already written about his childhood and adolescence in Minneapolis. Unable to complete the memoir Piepenbring planned to write with Prince, Piepenbring fashioned the book into something else. It includes the chapters Prince had already written as well as an essay by Piepenbring about working with Prince, Prince's handwritten lyrics to some of his songs, photos of Prince and images of things Piepenbring found in the vaults at Paisley Park, Prince's compound. The book, which is edited by Piepenbring, has the title Prince had planned to give his memoir, \"The Beautiful Ones.\" It's named after the song Piepenbring describes as one of the most naked, aching songs in Prince's catalog. Let's start with that song.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 2, "text": "Dan Piepenbring, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Baby, baby, baby, what's it going to be? Baby, baby, baby, is it him or is it me? Don't make me waste my time. Don't make me lose my mind, baby. Baby, baby, baby, can't you stay with me toni"}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 3, "text": "This book is great. I'm really glad that you were able to put out what you were able to put out posthumously. Prince was always so elliptical about his life. Why did he want to write a memoir?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 4, "text": "In your list of reasons why he wanted to write a memoir, one of them was growing awareness of his mortality. Friends of his were falling ill. Do you think that was one of the reasons why he was more aware of his mortality?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ah, that is, of course, the question on everyone's mind and something that I was so curious about myself when I first went out there to meet him. And I think there were a few things kind of on his min"}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 5, "text": "How did you get to even audition for being Prince's collaborator on his memoir?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. And I think he was someone who was always very aware of what his musical peer group was doing. And I think Michael Jackson's death had really affected him greatly. He and I talked a lot ab"}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's a wonderful and exceptionally unlikely story that begins in New York in November of 2015 when I went out for a drink with my literary agent, Dan Kirschen of ICM. And he let it slip, almost "}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he was looking..."}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 8, "text": "You wrote an essay explaining why you wanted to be the person Prince chose to collaborate with him. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For a level of expertise. So Dan did not mince words. He said that I was never going to get this job but that he would, as a favor, put me on a list of potential collaborators for Prince."}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 9, "text": "...He read the essay and asked to meet with you. So before we get to his critique of your essay, set the scene...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 10, "text": "Set the scene for us for your first meeting with Prince.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 11, "text": "So you had written an essay explaining why you wanted to collaborate with Prince. And he critiqued your essay. And that's a really interesting critique. Like, you wrote that when you listened to Prince for the first time, you felt like you were breaking the law.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it was, I believe, January 29, 2016 - so winter in Minneapolis. And it was after dark when I finally arrived at Paisley Park. I'd had only about a day's notice that I would be going there at all."}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 12, "text": "And the song you were listening to was \"If I Was Your Girlfriend.\" So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 13, "text": "...Let's hear just a little bit of that, and then we'll talk about why you felt like you were breaking the law.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 14, "text": "That was Prince singing if - his song \"If I Was Your Girlfriend.\" My guest, Dan Piepenbring, is the editor of the new Prince memoir. So Dan, why did that song, when you first heard it - the first time you heard Prince - why did it make you feel like you were breaking the law?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) If I was your girlfriend, would you remember to tell me all the things you forgot when I was your man? Hey, hey, when I was your man. If I was your best friend, would you let me take care of"}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 15, "text": "When you wrote that you felt like you were breaking the law, Prince objected to that. He told you he objected to that at your first meeting. What was his objection?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I remember this vividly. I was, I think, 16 years old. I'd just gotten my driver's license. And this was in rural Baltimore County, where I grew up. I was driving around alone for one of the fir"}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 16, "text": "Yeah. And he told you he writes in harmony, and he always lives in harmony. An objection he raised about a lot of people who had written about him was their use of the word magical or alchemy to describe his music. Did you use either of those words in your essay?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He thought that his music was not at all lawbreaking, that it was completely harmonious. And when he told me this, we were sitting across from each other in his conference room in kind of perfect sile"}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 17, "text": "Because...?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yeah, I definitely use some variant of magical and maybe alchemy too - and also transfigure, which was a further word that he resisted."}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 18, "text": "He also thought that, you know, magic or magical - those were Michael words, not Prince words.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He had very, very, very particular, fastidious ideas about which words belonged in his orbit. And particularly, a word like transfigure, which, of course, has a very strong literal religious connotati"}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 19, "text": "Why do you think Prince chose you to be his collaborator for his memoir?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. He said - when he was driving me back to the hotel in his car, he looked over and said, you know, really think carefully about which words you would use because magical is not one that I"}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 20, "text": "Where was Prince musically when you started working with him on his memoir?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's, of course, something that I'll always wonder about. In true Prince fashion, he never kind of levelled his gaze at me and said, Dan, this is why it's you. He left me only sort of fragments and "}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 21, "text": "One of the reasons why Prince wanted to write a memoir is that he wanted to explain how he emerged as a synthesis of his parents. What are some of the ways his parents were different from each other?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He had just launched a solo tour - I believe the first one of his career - called Piano and a Microphone, where he was going to perform at various kind of smaller venues around the world. And it was j"}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 22, "text": "And it's something he kind of explores in his song \"When Doves Cry.\" And he was hoping that he could break down the lyrics in the book. He didn't live long enough to do that. But what did he tell you about the lyric to \"When Doves Cry?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In the memoir pages that he sat me down and showed me in Australia, from the very first paragraph, he's thinking about his mother and father and how they really formed the kind of two poles of his bei"}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 23, "text": "Do you want to quote the lines that specifically refer to a mother and a father in \"When Doves Cry?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there's a great passage in the memoir pages where he's written down the margin vertically \"When Doves Cry.\" And that is the section of the book pertaining to his parents' divorce, which was a wo"}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 24, "text": "Well, let's hear \"When Doves Cry.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. How can you just leave me standing alone in the world so cold? Maybe I'm just too demanding. Maybe I'm just like my father, too bold. Maybe I'm just like my mother. She's never satisfied"}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 25, "text": "So that, of course, is Prince, \"When Doves Cry.\" My guest, Dan Piepenbring, was supposed to be Prince's collaborator on the book that - the memoir that Prince had decided to write shortly before he died. But he died before much could be done on the memoir. Dan has edited a new book called \"Prince: The Beautiful Ones.\" That's Dan's essay about working with Prince. It has the pages that Prince had written before he died and a lot of, like, photographs and song lyrics and more. I - you know, it's so interesting that that he loved to watch his parents dress up and that he'd, you know, dress up after they'd leave. He had such amazing outfits when he performed. What did you learn about Prince and clothing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Dig if you will the picture of you and I engaged in a kiss. The sweat of your body covers me. Can you, my darling - can you picture this? Dream if you can a courtyard, an ocean of violets in"}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 26, "text": "How did he start playing music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, when I saw him, he tended to be fairly dressed down, for him. But there was still such care put into his appearance. Even if it were just in his hotel room that we were meeting and there was n"}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was through his father. They would sit together at the piano, and I remember Prince learning the \"Batman\" theme song."}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 28, "text": "You know, it's interesting. Like, his name is Prince. That was his given name. It's not, like, a name he took on for himself. But in school, in elementary school, teachers wouldn't call him Prince, or at least one of his teachers wouldn't call him Prince. Like, explain why not.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was very into Adam West's \"Batman,\" so he'd sit there playing, you know, (singing) doo-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo-doo (ph) Batman. And the rest is history, you know? It's a short leap from there to \"P"}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 29, "text": "And yet, during part of his career, he abandoned his name and became The Artist Formerly Known As Prince.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that they felt that there was just something wrong about it. He compared it to a boy having the name King and how a teacher would never want to call anyone King. I think to conjure royalty in "}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 30, "text": "So correct me if I'm wrong, but Prince, I think, grew up in a neighborhood of Minneapolis that was primarily African American, but he was bused to a white elementary school.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. I think that only indicates again how almost sacred the name was to him, especially because of the bond that it forged between him and his father - you know, being one of two Princes in "}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 31, "text": "And the people in the white school had a lot more money than the people in his neighborhood.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that's right. For at least a brief period - I think in fourth or fifth grade. That is correct."}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 32, "text": "About that school, about being in that school?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right, yeah. And I think he really was not fond of that experience. He sung very scathingly about it on the song \"The Sacrifice Of Victor.\" And when he was recounting it to me, he had nothing b"}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 33, "text": "What was it like to meet with Prince? He had such an air of mystery around him. He was - there's something so elusive about him. So meeting him in person, talking with him about something really practical like what this book was going to be - what was that like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, about the busing experience. I mean, he found it no more enlightened than segregationist Alabama. And I think it was not a place that he had any desire to return to. But certainly, it informed, "}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 34, "text": "Did he show up or leave without explanation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was extraordinary. And what I remember especially from the first meeting with him is the silence surrounding him. And really, as I thought about it, I realized that I had never kind of heard him si"}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 35, "text": "Your last conversation with Prince was a phone call four days before he died. This was on April 17, 2016. Tell us about the phone call.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He did, yeah. He would always know when to cut the conversation, and he was also good about telling me even where to sit. It was clear that he would enter a room and know immediately how he wanted to "}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 36, "text": "You had heard in the press that Prince's plane was - made an emergency landing because Prince had a bad case of the flu. And you told him that you were sorry he had the flu and hoping he felt better. And he said, no, no - flu-like symptoms", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was the only time he had called my cell phone. And my cell phone was charging at the time, and I had a very short cord, so I had to kind of stoop on the floor and talk to him, and I remember scrawl"}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 37, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was the only time he had called my cell phone. And my cell phone was charging at the time, and I had a very short cord, so I had to kind of stoop on the floor and talk to him, and I remember scrawl"}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 38, "text": "So what do you think the distinction was he was - what was he trying to tell you, do you think, when he said flu-like symptoms?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 39, "text": "So he died four days after that call of an overdose of fentanyl. When you were working with him, what did you know about his use of opioids?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I've pored over those words so many times since then. And I do have to wonder, was - he didn't want to lie to me, clearly, but I think he just wanted to signal that, while he felt that he was fi"}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 40, "text": "So he overdosed on Vicodin, or fake Vicodin with fentanyl...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely nothing. I saw no evidence of it ever. And I was just gobsmacked when that news came out because it did not square at all with the man I had met who was so sunny and who would sometimes be "}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 41, "text": "...Which is, like, super powerful.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 42, "text": "Do you know - I guess you probably don't know, but was he in chronic pain?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 43, "text": "After Prince died, you got access to Paisley Park to look for things that you could use for the book because you continued to work on the book that was supposed to be his memoir. What some of the more wonderful things that you found in Paisley Park?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have to assume he was, and I think that's only a sort of further tribute to his work ethic. Prince was so famously anti-drug, and I think if there was one thing that would lead him to begin taking d"}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 44, "text": "You know, you write that Prince had created a persona as a prophetic act. He could become the person he imagined. Can you elaborate on that for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was such a treat to be able to go there after he had died and to explore it in essentially exactly the way that he had left it. And I went there with my editor and my publisher and my agent, and we"}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 45, "text": "Dan Piepenbring, it's been really a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's a bit tricky, and I think it comes out of what he told this group of editors when he assembled them at Paisley Park before I was even involved in the book. But he was very adamant that this"}
{"id": "782929000", "date": "2019-11-28", "guest": "Dan Piepenbring", "title": "Prince Wanted To 'Break The Mold Of The Memoir,' Says His Co-Writer", "question_index": 46, "text": "And the new Prince book edited by Dan Piepenbring is called \"Prince: The Beautiful Ones.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. It's been so great to be here."}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. I didn't grow up watching \"Mister Rogers,\" but I love the new film \"A Beautiful Day In The Neighborhood,\" starring Tom Hanks as Fred Rogers. I recorded an interview with the film's director, Marielle Heller. But when we first broadcast it last week, it was preempted on most stations by the impeachment hearings. We like this interview and want you to hear it, so we're playing it again today.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 1, "text": "Marielle Heller also directed one of my favorite films from last year, \"Can You Ever Forgive Me?\" She previously joined us to talk about her first film, \"The Diary Of A Teenage Girl.\" The new film is inspired by the story of Rogers' relationship with journalist Tom Junod, who was assigned to profile Rogers in 1998 for a special issue of Esquire on American heroes. Junod says the assigning editor thought it would be amusing to have him, a journalist determined to say the unsayable, write about the nicest man in the world. But talking with Rogers changed Junod's life. Junod wrote a new essay about his relationship with Rogers published in The Atlantic to coincide with the film's release. He writes, a long time ago, a man of resourceful and relentless kindness saw something in me that I didn't see in myself. He trusted me when I thought I was untrustworthy and took an interest in me that went beyond my initial interest in him. He was the first person I ever wrote about who became my friend, and our friendship endured until he died. In the movie, Tom Junod's name is changed to Lloyd Vogel. His personal story is changed too. Let's hear a scene from the film in which Lloyd is interviewing Rogers. Lloyd has a bloody cut and a bruise on his face, which he told Rogers he got from a softball game. But he really got it at his sister's wedding when he got into a fight with his estranged father.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 2, "text": "Marielle Heller, welcome to FRESH AIR. Congratulations on the film.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Fred Rogers) Well, that is what we're doing, isn't it?"}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 3, "text": "What did you do to help Tom Hanks embody Mister Rogers in the movie?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 4, "text": "I know on the radio, like, a pause can be a very kind of dramatic thing - when you hear, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, the positive thing going into this was obviously the way the public feels about Tom Hanks has a similar quality to how we feel about Mister Rogers. So there was a warmth that we were starting "}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 5, "text": "...Oh, somebody's thinking, or somebody's mad or - you know. But...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 6, "text": "...But if the pause goes on too long, everybody just gets uncomfortable. So how did you deal with that in making the movie - like, you wanted pauses. You wanted...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 7, "text": "...Slowness. But if it's too much of any of that, it's just going to be...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 8, "text": "...Uncomfortable for everybody in the audience.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, Fred had a very specific cadence. I don't think anybody could have watched his show and not noticed that he spoke at a different pace than the rest of the world. And we heard from a number of "}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 10, "text": "What you're describing is the opposite of what's depicted in the movie on the set of \"Mister Rogers' Neighborhood\" because on the set, there are producers who are thinking, like, come on. Like, move it along.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- that apparently I was like, we're going slower, guys. Here we go. And they were going, really? Slower? That felt so slow."}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 11, "text": "You know? And they're...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 12, "text": "They're so frustrated with his slowness. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Apparently Fred was very hard..."}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 13, "text": "Did people who he worked with tell you that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. He was always running behind. He was always talking to people for hours at a time. It was really hard to move him through a crowd. It was really hard..."}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 14, "text": "I'm not a big fan of biopics because usually the writers and director take a lot of liberties for dramatic purposes. And then you leave the movie not knowing the difference between history and fiction.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. We were so lucky when we made this movie because we went to Pittsburgh, where Fred made the show and lived for his whole life. And we were welcomed by his wife, Joanne, Bill Isler and all of the"}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 15, "text": "And the fiction is often confused with who the person really was, what really happened.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep. Yeah."}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 16, "text": "But you get around that in the opening in a - in two really lovely ways. You know, the framing device is that - it's an edition of \"Mister Rogers' Neighborhood,\" and he's telling all the children, look, it's a picture board. And on the picture board, there's a lot of different doors, and each door opens to another character who's from \"Mister Rogers' Neighborhood.\" And so he opens each door and introduces each character from the neighborhood. And then the last door that he opens is a picture - and he says, this is a picture of my friend Lloyd. And it's - this is a picture of somebody whose, like - his face is bloodied.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know. Yeah."}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 17, "text": "He's bruised. He's got a big cut. He looks angry and miserable. And that's the introduction to the main character, the journalist, Lloyd.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 18, "text": "And you realize, this is going to be the story told through the lens of \"Mister Rogers' Neighborhood.\" This isn't an actual story, literally true. This is if this journalist's life happened in \"Mister Rogers' Neighborhood.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 19, "text": "And the other way that you make it clear this is a - the story as if it happened in \"Mister Rogers' Neighborhood\" in the opening credits. We're seeing the city of Pittsburgh, where Fred Rogers shot \"Mister Rogers' Neighborhood,\" but it's all in miniature as if it was part of the set...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. We make it very clear from the very beginning. There's no chance you could confuse this for being a documentary or any - in any way. It's a story that we're telling. And it's a film, and it has v"}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 20, "text": "...Of \"Mister Rogers' Neighborhood.\" And I just thought, like, that was just such a really lovely thing to do and also very important in framing the whole story as this is in the context of \"Mister Rogers' Neighborhood,\" not in real life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Right. We sort of used the miniatures that they used on the show as our jumping-off point and then thought, but what if it went even further? What if you expanded that out? What if we - after y"}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 22, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and there's plenty of - more to talk about when we get back. If you're just joining us, my guest is Marielle Heller. And she directed the new film, \"A Beautiful Day In The Neighborhood.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...If that's how we could do it."}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Marielle Heller. And her new film is \"A Beautiful Day In The Neighborhood,\" which is a film about Fred Rogers and a journalist who profiled him and how the journalist was changed by his journalistic relationship and then friendship with Fred Rogers. So I want to ask you about one of the scenes in the movie that borrows from what happened in real life, although it happens in a different way in the movie. In real life, Fred Rogers was receiving an award, a Lifetime Achievement Award from the TV Critics Association. And while he was up at the podium accepting the award, he said, let's pause for 60 seconds and remember those people who loved us into being who we are.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...If that's how we could do it."}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 24, "text": "I'm paraphrasing. He did 10 seconds. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he did 10 seconds."}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 25, "text": "And I was thinking two things, two contradictory things about that. One is, what a really, like, lovely and thoughtful thing to do, making it about - you know, instead of, like, praising me, the award winner, think about...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He did 10 seconds because I think he asked for 60 seconds. And from what I've heard, they would only grant him 10 seconds on TV."}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 26, "text": "...The people who made you who you are and honor them. But at the same time, I was also thinking, if I was in the audience, I bet I would have resisted it. I bet I would have felt like, well, it's presumptuous of you to tell me that now is my time...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 27, "text": "...To be thinking about something.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 28, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But you know what? You look around - they do cutaways in the audience in..."}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 29, "text": "Did you watch \"Mister Rogers' Neighborhood\" as a child?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...That clip. And there's this wave that - you know, it's this moment where everyone's thinking about their ego. Everybody's there to win awards. Everybody's in some kind of a rat race to, like, win a"}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 30, "text": "So is there anything that he said or did that you remember from your childhood?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did."}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 31, "text": "What scared you about her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have very clear memories of loving the part of the show that was in his house and then feeling scared of some of the puppets in the land of Make-Believe, and I think particularly Lady Elaine."}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 32, "text": "Tell me more about that adult perspective on the show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she looks like a witch. She's got, like, this burnt nose and burnt cheekbones. And she had this very scratchy voice. And she was terrifying. I think she was terrifying for a lot of kids. And, yo"}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 33, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I have a memory of thinking that the show was just all happy-go-lucky or something or just easy. And then as an adult, looking back, I realized that he wasn't afraid of any of the hardest part"}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 34, "text": "That is an amazing story. I'm just trying to figure out what I want to say.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "or, like, the entire universe and just asking me if we could bury all the walruses in our backyard so we could visit them. And I held him, and I was crying. And we - and all I could figure out to say "}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 35, "text": "Oh, what did she say?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was so - it was also one of the first stories that I told Joanne Rogers when I went to Pittsburgh. I'm just remembering too. I haven't..."}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 36, "text": "My guest is Marielle Heller, director of the new film \"A Beautiful Day In The Neighborhood.\" She also directed \"Can You Ever Forgive Me?\" and \"The Diary Of A Teenage Girl.\" After a break, we'll talk about how she learned about death. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I haven't told this story at all in any of our press. But I think we sat in her living room, and she teared up. And we kind of held hands as I talked about it because it had just happened when I talke"}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 37, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Marielle Heller, who directed the new movie \"A Beautiful Day In The Neighborhood\" starring Tom Hanks as Fred Rogers and Matthew Rhys as a journalist assigned to profile him for Esquire magazine. Heller also directed the films \"Can You Ever Forgive Me?\" and \"The Diary Of A Teenage Girl.\" When we left off, Heller had just told the story of how she and her 3-year-old son had watched an episode of \"Mister Rogers' Neighborhood\" that dealt with death, which was an upsetting idea for her son, who had never heard about death before. Do you remember how you learned about death?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I haven't told this story at all in any of our press. But I think we sat in her living room, and she teared up. And we kind of held hands as I talked about it because it had just happened when I talke"}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 38, "text": "You wanted to go?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I remember my grandmother's husband dying. But I think I was older. I think I was 7 or 8 when he died. But I remember that being the first real person I knew who died, and I - and that my parents didn"}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 39, "text": "Was it upsetting for you to learn that such a thing existed as death?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wanted to go. I don't - I thought I wasn't - like, I felt - and I think about sort of Mister Rogers in that way of, like, I felt like a full person, you know? I felt like I was having as big of an e"}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 40, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I - yeah. I was one of those kids who thought about death a lot. And we had the big earthquake in the Bay Area..."}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 41, "text": "How old were you then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...In 1989."}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 42, "text": "Oh, wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ten. But that really - it scared me in, like, a deep, dark way, you know? It really shook my sense of what could happen in the world. It was just the first - my brother was trapped in a warehouse, and"}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 43, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Across a bridge."}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 44, "text": "And he grew up with a lot of illness. I mean, he was a sick child.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And we didn't know if he was OK. And, you know, friends of mine, their parents were in San Francisco, and the Bay Bridge had collapsed. And we didn't know if they were OK. And there were people who we"}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 45, "text": "He was often isolated. That's how he started doing voices - like, voices for his puppets. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 46, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. He was - his parents were so nervous that he was going to be kidnapped that they had him chauffeured to school so that he was even more isolated from his friends."}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 47, "text": "I want to play one of Mister Rogers' songs that you use in the film. I particularly like this one. It's the one called \"What Do You Do With The Mad That You Feel.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And I think he was in his own head a lot in that way. But I think he also was very - he spent the rest of his life therefore trying to be super connected to other people rather than being so sep"}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 48, "text": "And it's all - it's a song all about learning to control yourself when your emotions get out of hand. And I think this is a song that most of us adults should learn by heart, too", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 49, "text": ". So this is the real Fred Rogers singing it. Here we go.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 50, "text": "OK, that was Mister Rogers. Do you play these songs for your son?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) What do you do with the mad that you feel when you feel so mad you could bite, when the whole wide world seems oh so wrong, and nothing you do seems very right? What do you do? Do you punch "}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 51, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then there'll be plenty more to talk about. If you're just joining us, my guest is Marielle Heller. She directed the new film \"A Beautiful Day In The Neighborhood.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do. That one I play for my kid all the time. That song sort of became, like, our thesis for the whole movie, this idea that so many of us don't actually have practical ways to cope with our feelings"}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 52, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Marielle Heller. She directed the new film \"A Beautiful Day In The Neighborhood,\" which is based on the story of Fred Rogers and a magazine writer who was profiling him for Esquire. And the film is a lot about the journalist and how Fred Rogers changes his life, but you also gain a lot of insights into Fred Rogers in the film. So the movie is in memory of Jim Emswiller, who died in a freak accident during the shooting. Could you explain what happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do. That one I play for my kid all the time. That song sort of became, like, our thesis for the whole movie, this idea that so many of us don't actually have practical ways to cope with our feelings"}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 53, "text": "What do you do after that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I don't think we'll ever totally know what happened is the truth. But we were filming the movie, and Jim was our sound person and a very beloved member of the Pittsburgh film community and someb"}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 54, "text": "Well, thank you for talking about a chapter of the film that I know is really horrible for you. But thank you for talking about it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's no protocol for what to do. That was the thing that was so hard. I mean, we - obviously, first thing was getting him to the hospital and trying to - you know, everybody starts packing up equip"}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 55, "text": "So I read that when you were making \"A Beautiful Day In The Neighborhood,\" you kept the shooting to a limited number of hours a day...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 56, "text": "...So that people like you could get home and, you know, put their kid to bed or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 57, "text": "...You know, spend some time with family. So \"Can You Ever Forgive Me?,\" your previous film, came out last year. And what's the difference in age in the age that your son was between...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yup."}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 58, "text": "...that and the new one? And also, what did you learn from making...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So when I..."}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 59, "text": "...Your first film about what you needed in your life and in your family's life in order to keep doing this and not feeling like you were a neglectful mother?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 60, "text": "Yeah", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I was making \"Can You Ever Forgive Me?,\" I think Wylie was 2. And I would leave in the morning when he was asleep. And I would get home, and he would be asleep. And even though I was shooting in "}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 61, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I was making \"Can You Ever Forgive Me?,\" I think Wylie was 2. And I would leave in the morning when he was asleep. And I would get home, and he would be asleep. And even though I was shooting in "}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 62, "text": "Let's take a short break here.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So how do we do this? How do we find a way to do this? And I was just lucky that everybody who worked on this movie was really game for this idea. Pretty much everybody involved had little kids or kid"}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 63, "text": "And then we'll come back and talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Marielle Heller. She directed the new film \"A Beautiful Day In The Neighborhood\" about Fred Rogers and his relationship with a journalist who profiled him. And she also made \"Can You Ever Forgive Me?\" and \"The Diary Of A Teenage Girl.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 64, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Marielle Heller. She directed the new film \"A Beautiful Day In The Neighborhood.\" She also directed \"Can You Ever Forgive Me?\" and \"The Diary Of A Teenage Girl.\" Being an artist means being able to see the world and then express the world through your point of view. And you have to have confidence in that point of view, and you have to feel that you have an independent point of view worth expressing and not wait for everybody else's affirmation before you can express it...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 65, "text": "...Not make sure you're in the majority in how you're perceiving something. Was it ever hard for you to believe in your point of view?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah"}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 66, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I don't know. It's this funny thing because I obviously - I get asked a lot of questions about being a female director and the fact that, you know, there's - a lot of women feel not connected to t"}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 67, "text": "You wanted to act originally. And you were in children's theater.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nobody's shocked, you know? I mean, I was, like - I was definitely organizing little plays on my block and making all the kids do what I told them to do. So I was bossy from a very young age. But also"}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 68, "text": "And it sounds like directing was a kind of fallback scheme. Oh, I'm not getting parts, so...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 69, "text": "Well, it's been wonderful to talk with you. Thank you so much for this interview and for the movie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I didn't even think about directing. I mean, I didn't even - I don't even think I quite knew what a - not in film. I didn't really know what a director did. I mean, that's not something you get a "}
{"id": "782941877", "date": "2019-11-29", "guest": "Matthew Rhys", "title": "'Beautiful Day' Director On Mister Rogers' 'Radical Notion': Telling Kids The Truth", "question_index": 70, "text": "Marielle Heller directed the new movie \"A Beautiful Day In The Neighborhood\" starring Tom Hanks as Fred Rogers. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham with additional engineering support from Joyce Lieberman and Julian Herzfeld. Our associate producer for digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you, Terry. It's such a pleasure to talk to you."}
{"id": "784132046", "date": "2019-12-02", "guest": "Gahan Wilson", "title": "Remembering 'New Yorker' Cartoonist Gahan Wilson", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Cartoonist Gahan Wilson died November 21 at the age of 89. He was known for his cartoons in The New Yorker, Playboy and National Lampoon. His work was often described as macabre and weird. In an appreciation of Wilson published in The New Yorker, cartoonist Michael Maslin described Wilson as liking to depict ordinary folks encountering some kind of anxious terror or experiencing the unthinkable in mundane places. Gahan Wilson was a fan of vampire and werewolf movies and even made his own pilgrimage to Transylvania to visit the historic Castle Dracula. I spoke with Wilson in 1986. He told me he was fascinated by monsters and thought they were great metaphors for human fears and weaknesses. Here's an excerpt of that interview.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "784132046", "date": "2019-12-02", "guest": "Gahan Wilson", "title": "Remembering 'New Yorker' Cartoonist Gahan Wilson", "question_index": 1, "text": "Another theme that recurs in your work is childhood fears, and especially some of the really irrational ones that we all have. The toilet monster is really one of my favorites.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "784132046", "date": "2019-12-02", "guest": "Gahan Wilson", "title": "Remembering 'New Yorker' Cartoonist Gahan Wilson", "question_index": 2, "text": "Would you explain the toilet monster?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "784132046", "date": "2019-12-02", "guest": "Gahan Wilson", "title": "Remembering 'New Yorker' Cartoonist Gahan Wilson", "question_index": 3, "text": "The toilet monster is - if in the middle of the - there's this - in the middle of night, you have to go the bathroom. You have to be very careful because there is this thing who lives down in the works underneath there. All plumbing is a source of great peril and danger because it goes from the known world into the unknown depths there. And that's why we have all these things about the snakes coming into the bathtub via the drain, and we know, of course, about the crocodiles in the sewers and all that sort of stuff. There's also this thing, which is somehow associated with the toilet. It's down there, and at night, if you flush the toilet, you're liable to waken it. And it may come up and get you, so you have to be - you have to flush it and get the hell out very quickly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "784132046", "date": "2019-12-02", "guest": "Gahan Wilson", "title": "Remembering 'New Yorker' Cartoonist Gahan Wilson", "question_index": 4, "text": "Were you really worried about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "784132046", "date": "2019-12-02", "guest": "Gahan Wilson", "title": "Remembering 'New Yorker' Cartoonist Gahan Wilson", "question_index": 5, "text": "OK, like, making a face - what's going to happen if you make a face?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I - that one, actually, I thank God I wasn't. I - this was a - this was something that I heard from somebody else. But a lot of the other ones were definitely..."}
{"id": "784132046", "date": "2019-12-02", "guest": "Gahan Wilson", "title": "Remembering 'New Yorker' Cartoonist Gahan Wilson", "question_index": 6, "text": "What about water fountain germs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Making a face - if you are - if you make a face and somebody startles you, like you get slapped in the back or there's an explosion or it backfires - something like that - you've got to watch out beca"}
{"id": "784132046", "date": "2019-12-02", "guest": "Gahan Wilson", "title": "Remembering 'New Yorker' Cartoonist Gahan Wilson", "question_index": 7, "text": "You have a chapter in your book \"Gahan Wilson's America\" devoted to smile buttons. You think that smile buttons exemplify the whole idea of phony fun.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Water fountain germs are - contagion is a big kid thing, and, of course, a water fountain is a mass of horrible, contagious possibilities. And the thing is that if you rub the fountain top part carefu"}
{"id": "784132046", "date": "2019-12-02", "guest": "Gahan Wilson", "title": "Remembering 'New Yorker' Cartoonist Gahan Wilson", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. They irritate me very much. I suppose one reason is because as a humorist, I am particularly aware of the value of what a smile represents. I mean, this is - a smile is an extraordinary achievem"}
{"id": "784132046", "date": "2019-12-02", "guest": "Gahan Wilson", "title": "Remembering 'New Yorker' Cartoonist Gahan Wilson", "question_index": 9, "text": "Did you draw little monsters in the margins of your notebooks when you were schoolkid?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, that's the final touch. I'll take all the rest of it. I mean, I can stand the rest of it. But the smile - that's too much. I draw the line with that smile."}
{"id": "784132046", "date": "2019-12-02", "guest": "Gahan Wilson", "title": "Remembering 'New Yorker' Cartoonist Gahan Wilson", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. Oh, yes, I did indeed. And I had a strange experience in that I went through some stuff that - from the family. My parents were dead, and there was a bunch of stuff there. And there was one box"}
{"id": "784132046", "date": "2019-12-02", "guest": "Gahan Wilson", "title": "Remembering 'New Yorker' Cartoonist Gahan Wilson", "question_index": 11, "text": "When you came to New York with your portfolio of cartoons and tried to sell them to magazines, was it hard to get in initially?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so I was doing that kind of junk way back then."}
{"id": "784132046", "date": "2019-12-02", "guest": "Gahan Wilson", "title": "Remembering 'New Yorker' Cartoonist Gahan Wilson", "question_index": 12, "text": "Could you maybe describe a couple of those early cartoons?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very. Very, yeah because I'm still regarded as sort of far-out in some circles, and at that point, I was really, really far out. And I mean, I was really bizarre. They - what I'd - what had happened t"}
{"id": "784132046", "date": "2019-12-02", "guest": "Gahan Wilson", "title": "Remembering 'New Yorker' Cartoonist Gahan Wilson", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure. Let's see. There's this fellow, and he's in a cannibal pot. He's being cooked. And he has a evil look on his face, and he has a bottle of poison, and he's pouring the poison, and the water i"}
{"id": "784132046", "date": "2019-12-02", "guest": "Gahan Wilson", "title": "Remembering 'New Yorker' Cartoonist Gahan Wilson", "question_index": 14, "text": "You have a very rounded signature, letters are really, pretty round. Did you work at what your signature would be when you were signing your cartoons, and do you use the same signature to endorse your checks?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That kind of stuff. It was very much in keeping with what I do today."}
{"id": "784132046", "date": "2019-12-02", "guest": "Gahan Wilson", "title": "Remembering 'New Yorker' Cartoonist Gahan Wilson", "question_index": 15, "text": "OK. I want to thank you, Gahan Wilson, so much for being with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The other thing is I was always irritated at cartoonists who shyly scrawled their signatures so you couldn't make it out. I thought, what - why have they gone to all this trouble and they write - and "}
{"id": "784132046", "date": "2019-12-02", "guest": "Gahan Wilson", "title": "Remembering 'New Yorker' Cartoonist Gahan Wilson", "question_index": 16, "text": "I really enjoy cartoons, and I really thank you for being here today.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you."}
{"id": "784132046", "date": "2019-12-02", "guest": "Gahan Wilson", "title": "Remembering 'New Yorker' Cartoonist Gahan Wilson", "question_index": 17, "text": "Cartoonist Gahan Wilson, recorded in 1986. He died November 21 at the age of 89. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, my guest will be B.J. Miller, a hospice and palliative care doctor who's the former director of the Zen Hospice Guesthouse in San Francisco. He started this work because he came close to death when he was a sophomore in college and jumped on top of a parked commuter train and got electrocuted. He lost both legs below his knees and one arm below his elbow. He's the co-author of the new book \"A Beginner's Guide To The End.\" I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. I had a swell time."}
{"id": "784132046", "date": "2019-12-02", "guest": "Gahan Wilson", "title": "Remembering 'New Yorker' Cartoonist Gahan Wilson", "question_index": 18, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry GROSS.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. I had a swell time."}
{"id": "785046302", "date": "2019-12-05", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "Ukrainian President Takes Offense At Suggestion Of Quid Pro Quo, Journalist Says", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The impeachment inquiry report released this week by the House Intelligence Committee concluded that President Trump demanded that the Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelenskiy, publicly announce investigations into a political rival, Joe Biden, and into a discredited theory that it was Ukraine - not Russia - that interfered in the 2016 presidential election. To compel the Ukrainian president to do his political bidding, President Trump conditioned two official acts on the public announcement of the investigations - a coveted White House visit and critical U.S. military assistance Ukraine needed to fight its Russian adversary. So that's what the report says. What does Presidents Zelenskiy have to say about whether there was a quid pro quo? My guest Simon Shuster interviewed Zelenskiy Saturday along with journalists from three leading European publications. Shuster also just interviewed one of Zelenskiy's top aides, who was the point man in meetings with Trump's diplomats and allies. Shuster is Time magazine's Europe correspondent, now based in Berlin, but he worked out of Moscow for many years and has been reporting extensively on Russian and Ukrainian oligarchs and connections between Trump allies and oligarchs. When I spoke with Shuster yesterday afternoon, he was in a studio in Kyiv, Ukraine. Simon Schuster, welcome to FRESH AIR. Let's start with your interview with President Zelenskiy. Did he - what does he say about whether he perceived a quid pro quo in his phone call with Trump or whether he perceived that President Trump was making military aid to Ukraine, aid that was already promised by Congress, conditional on Ukraine doing the president's bidding and investigating the Bidens?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "785046302", "date": "2019-12-05", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "Ukrainian President Takes Offense At Suggestion Of Quid Pro Quo, Journalist Says", "question_index": 1, "text": "So that's what they say. Does that add up to you? I mean, the president did say in that phone call, do me a favor.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. He says - and he said very consistently that at that time, he was not even aware of any of these connections between military aid being frozen and the requests for investigations that were reachin"}
{"id": "785046302", "date": "2019-12-05", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "Ukrainian President Takes Offense At Suggestion Of Quid Pro Quo, Journalist Says", "question_index": 2, "text": "So President Trump tweeted that Zelenskiy said there was no quid pro quo. Does the fact that Zelenskiy didn't perceive a quid pro quo mean that Trump did not intend for there to be a quid pro quo?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that's right. But in terms of military aid, that does add up to me. You know, in terms of the timeline that has been spelled out, it's at least plausible to me that they were not aware of a direc"}
{"id": "785046302", "date": "2019-12-05", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "Ukrainian President Takes Offense At Suggestion Of Quid Pro Quo, Journalist Says", "question_index": 3, "text": "What are your other takeaways from your interview with Zelenskiy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think it's really my place to parse President Trump's interpretations of what President Zelenskiy said. You know, I think that President Trump is picking and choosing to some extent, you know,"}
{"id": "785046302", "date": "2019-12-05", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "Ukrainian President Takes Offense At Suggestion Of Quid Pro Quo, Journalist Says", "question_index": 4, "text": "You just interviewed Andriy Yermak, who is a top aide to Zelenskiy. And for people making the case that there was a quid pro quo, Yermak is perceived to be a part of that story. Where does he fit in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess my main takeaway was how much he's changed during his very brief stint in office. He was only inaugurated about six months ago. And I met him for the first time during his election campaign in"}
{"id": "785046302", "date": "2019-12-05", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "Ukrainian President Takes Offense At Suggestion Of Quid Pro Quo, Journalist Says", "question_index": 5, "text": "Now, wasn't there a point in August when the Trump administration was pressuring Zelenskiy to make a public statement saying that he would investigate corruption in Burisma and Joe Biden's son Hunter's role on the board of directors there and other related things that Trump wanted Zelenskiy to investigate? So didn't the Trump administration want Zelenskiy to make a public statement saying he would do these investigations, and wasn't Yermak supposed to be involved with helping him draft it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He, from the very beginning, was the man, the friend, the advisor that Zelenskiy delegated to deal with the Americans. By that point, they were - you know, early - very early in their presidency, even"}
{"id": "785046302", "date": "2019-12-05", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "Ukrainian President Takes Offense At Suggestion Of Quid Pro Quo, Journalist Says", "question_index": 6, "text": "You've reported that the Trump administration's pressure to probe Burisma has actually backfired. In what sense?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. From the various witnesses that testified in the impeachment inquiry, we now know that there was a clear attempt to essentially - as one of the witnesses, Kurt Volker, the special repres"}
{"id": "785046302", "date": "2019-12-05", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "Ukrainian President Takes Offense At Suggestion Of Quid Pro Quo, Journalist Says", "question_index": 7, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Simon Shuster. He is the European correspondent for Time magazine, and he's been covering Ukraine and Russia. We'll be back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So yeah. So that gets a little bit into the weeds of, you know, what investigations are actually ongoing and the history of this company. So this company has been investigated over the years for vario"}
{"id": "785046302", "date": "2019-12-05", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "Ukrainian President Takes Offense At Suggestion Of Quid Pro Quo, Journalist Says", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is Simon Shuster. He's a European correspondent for Time magazine. He's based in Germany, but he's been spending a lot of time in Kyiv and has been covering Ukraine and Russia and the ways in which they tie into the impeachment inquiry. So Burisma is part of the gas and energy sector in Ukraine, and you've written that the gas sector in Ukraine is notoriously corrupt. Two of Rudy Giuliani's associates, Igor Fruman and Lev Parnas, tried to have a business relationship with Ukraine's state gas company, Naftogaz, and Fruman and Parnas have been indicted for allegedly violating campaign finance laws. What are their links - or what links did they try to have with Ukraine's state-run gas company, Naftogaz?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So yeah. So that gets a little bit into the weeds of, you know, what investigations are actually ongoing and the history of this company. So this company has been investigated over the years for vario"}
{"id": "785046302", "date": "2019-12-05", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "Ukrainian President Takes Offense At Suggestion Of Quid Pro Quo, Journalist Says", "question_index": 9, "text": "So while seeking these gas deals in Ukraine, Fruman and Parnas were also helping Rudy Giuliani to pressure the Ukrainian government to open investigations into Biden. What do you make of those two things happening at the same time? Is there any evidence of any connection?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They had this ambition to somehow get involved in the energy trade between the United States and Ukraine. Essentially, they wanted to ship massive amounts of American liquefied natural gas to Ukraine,"}
{"id": "785046302", "date": "2019-12-05", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "Ukrainian President Takes Offense At Suggestion Of Quid Pro Quo, Journalist Says", "question_index": 10, "text": "Was Giuliani involved in that profit-making scheme?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a really tangled web. I think there is evidence of connections. You know, certainly, these two pursuits were happening in parallel. They were happening at the same time, and they were happening w"}
{"id": "785046302", "date": "2019-12-05", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "Ukrainian President Takes Offense At Suggestion Of Quid Pro Quo, Journalist Says", "question_index": 11, "text": "My guest is Simon Shuster, Europe correspondent for Time. After we take a short break, we'll talk about Trump allies and the Ukrainian oligarch Dmitry Firtash and how their interests began to merge last summer, and John Powers will review \"Portrait Of A Lady On Fire,\" which won the screenwriting prize at Cannes in May. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's not yet clear. I think the reporting has suggested that - I mean, this is a tough one because Rudy Giuliani has categorically denied that he, you know, was seeking these gas deals, that he was in"}
{"id": "785046302", "date": "2019-12-05", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "Ukrainian President Takes Offense At Suggestion Of Quid Pro Quo, Journalist Says", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Simon Shuster, who's the Europe correspondent for Time and has been covering Ukraine, Trump administration dealings there and connections between Trump allies and Ukrainian oligarchs. Shuster is based in Berlin and previously was based in Moscow. When we recorded our interview yesterday afternoon, he was in a studio in Kyiv. Ukraine. OK, I want to bring up another Ukrainian energy oligarch you've written about - Dmitry Firtash, who's wanted by U.S. authorities. And what is his place in the current impeachment inquiry?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's not yet clear. I think the reporting has suggested that - I mean, this is a tough one because Rudy Giuliani has categorically denied that he, you know, was seeking these gas deals, that he was in"}
{"id": "785046302", "date": "2019-12-05", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "Ukrainian President Takes Offense At Suggestion Of Quid Pro Quo, Journalist Says", "question_index": 13, "text": "So Firtash, the Ukrainian energy oligarch we've been talking about - the U.S. Department of Justice described him as among the upper echelon associates of Russian organized crime. So is he connected to Russian organized crime and to Vladimir Putin?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he's a fascinating character in all this. And again, I think that there's quite a lot more information that we're going to learn in the coming months as, you know, the various strands of this in"}
{"id": "785046302", "date": "2019-12-05", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "Ukrainian President Takes Offense At Suggestion Of Quid Pro Quo, Journalist Says", "question_index": 14, "text": "Federal prosecutors in the U.S. want to extradite for Firtash to the U.S. so he could stand trial here. So Victoria Toensing and Joseph diGenova, a married couple who are lawyers who are working on Firtash's legal team and trying to prevent him from being extradited to the U.S., they have interesting connections. Like, they not only have become staunch defenders of President Trump, frequently appearing on Fox News; in 2018, Trump considering hiring them as part of his legal team. They hired Lev Parnas, Rudy Giuliani's associate, to serve as their interpreter in communications with Firtash. So I don't know what that says, that all of these alliances are so tangled and, you know, lead back to Giuliani and Trump.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He certainly denies any connection to Russian organized crime, but his connection to Putin is pretty indisputable. Firtash made his fortune as a partner to the Kremlin in the European gas trade. He ma"}
{"id": "785046302", "date": "2019-12-05", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "Ukrainian President Takes Offense At Suggestion Of Quid Pro Quo, Journalist Says", "question_index": 15, "text": "You know, at the same time, Toensing's son - who's diGenova's stepson - Brady Tensing, he was recently hired by William Barr's Justice Department in the Office of Legal Policy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think it's quite clear. The way I think about this is - the two teams merged at some point this summer. There was the team Giuliani that included, you know, various people, including these two"}
{"id": "785046302", "date": "2019-12-05", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "Ukrainian President Takes Offense At Suggestion Of Quid Pro Quo, Journalist Says", "question_index": 16, "text": "Interesting. Go ahead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. And I think..."}
{"id": "785046302", "date": "2019-12-05", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "Ukrainian President Takes Offense At Suggestion Of Quid Pro Quo, Journalist Says", "question_index": 17, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest Simon Shuster is joining us from Kyiv, and he is the Europe correspondent for Time magazine. He's been spending a lot of time covering Ukraine. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Interesting coincidence. I mean, the one that struck me the most and that really was when the lightbulb came on for me that, you know, hey, something strange is going on here in the relationship betwe"}
{"id": "785046302", "date": "2019-12-05", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "Ukrainian President Takes Offense At Suggestion Of Quid Pro Quo, Journalist Says", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Simon Shuster, who is the European correspondent for Time. And he has been spending a lot of time covering Ukraine, and he formerly reported from Russia. What do you make of the fact that when Parnas and Fruman were arrested by American authorities, they were on their way to Vienna, which is where Firtash is living in exile, and Rudy Giuliani was supposed to go to Vienna the next day?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Interesting coincidence. I mean, the one that struck me the most and that really was when the lightbulb came on for me that, you know, hey, something strange is going on here in the relationship betwe"}
{"id": "785046302", "date": "2019-12-05", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "Ukrainian President Takes Offense At Suggestion Of Quid Pro Quo, Journalist Says", "question_index": 19, "text": "So that would - if what you're saying - if there was any evidence of what you're implying, that would implicate William Barr, the head of the Justice Department, or at least it would implicate his Justice Department.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean, that's another one of the red flags to me, that their relationship with Firtash is more interesting, and there's more details are going to come out about, you know, what they were doing "}
{"id": "785046302", "date": "2019-12-05", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "Ukrainian President Takes Offense At Suggestion Of Quid Pro Quo, Journalist Says", "question_index": 20, "text": "And now he also has connections to the president of the United States...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right; it would. And we know that there was a meeting between Firtash's lawyers and William Barr at the Justice Department. So after Firtash hired these two lawyers who were close to Giuliani, "}
{"id": "785046302", "date": "2019-12-05", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "Ukrainian President Takes Offense At Suggestion Of Quid Pro Quo, Journalist Says", "question_index": 21, "text": "...At the very least through his lawyers, who have connections to the president.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "785046302", "date": "2019-12-05", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "Ukrainian President Takes Offense At Suggestion Of Quid Pro Quo, Journalist Says", "question_index": 22, "text": "So you're covering what's happening in Ukraine, and so much of that is linked to the impeachment inquiry here in the U.S. How is impeachment looking from the Ukrainian perspective? And I'm curious, like, whether people in Ukraine are paying any attention. Certainly, I'm sure people in government are because some of them are involved in the story. But how much interest is there? And does the whole story look really different from Ukraine than you think it does in the U.S.?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. I mean - and these lawyers that are working for Dmitry Firtash, they are very well-connected in Trump circles. You know, according to a Politico profile of these two lawyers, they have a"}
{"id": "785046302", "date": "2019-12-05", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "Ukrainian President Takes Offense At Suggestion Of Quid Pro Quo, Journalist Says", "question_index": 23, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, certainly. I mean, the level of attention is very small compared to what it is in the United States. I mean, it's been an odd experience actually watching the impeachment testimony recently and "}
{"id": "785046302", "date": "2019-12-05", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "Ukrainian President Takes Offense At Suggestion Of Quid Pro Quo, Journalist Says", "question_index": 24, "text": "Simon Shuster, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was like, Tom Cruise? I don't care about Tom Cruise. You got - a president might be impeached soon. And she's like, I don't care about your impeachment. Tom Cruise was here. And he's, you know, prom"}
{"id": "785046302", "date": "2019-12-05", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "Ukrainian President Takes Offense At Suggestion Of Quid Pro Quo, Journalist Says", "question_index": 25, "text": "Simon Shuster is the Europe correspondent for Time. He spoke to us from a studio in Kyiv. After we take a short break, John Powers will review \"Portrait Of A Lady On Fire,\" which won the screenwriting prize at Cannes this year. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "785479448", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Michael Tilson Thomas", "title": "Michael Tilson Thomas On The Thrills And Challenges Of Conducting An Orchestra", "question_index": 0, "text": "As a teenager, you participated in the premiere of works by Boulez, Stockhausen, Copland, Stravinsky. You worked with them directly, yes?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's Aaron Copland's \"Billy The Kid\" performed by the San Francisco Symphony, conducted by Michael Tilson Thomas, our first guest today on FRESH AIR. This weekend, Thomas will be one of five honoree"}
{"id": "785479448", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Michael Tilson Thomas", "title": "Michael Tilson Thomas On The Thrills And Challenges Of Conducting An Orchestra", "question_index": 1, "text": "Yeah. So did they give you a sense of what to expect if you made music into your life, you know, if you lived the life of a musician?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, indeed."}
{"id": "785479448", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Michael Tilson Thomas", "title": "Michael Tilson Thomas On The Thrills And Challenges Of Conducting An Orchestra", "question_index": 2, "text": "What were you able to figure out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they did. Many people did - I mean, also Copland. But I very early perceived that there were some people in the music business who had been playing music for their whole lives, who seemed to be "}
{"id": "785479448", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Michael Tilson Thomas", "title": "Michael Tilson Thomas On The Thrills And Challenges Of Conducting An Orchestra", "question_index": 3, "text": "And what is the oath?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I decided way back then that it was important for musicians to kind of take a musical Hippocratic oath before they went into the profession."}
{"id": "785479448", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Michael Tilson Thomas", "title": "Michael Tilson Thomas On The Thrills And Challenges Of Conducting An Orchestra", "question_index": 4, "text": "When you said you thought musicians should take a Hippocratic oath, I thought it would be, you know, first do no harm...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That you have to discover that it's just necessary for you to make music. I mean, to be a musician, you have to love music as much as eating or sleeping or dreaming or all those other -ings. And you c"}
{"id": "785479448", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Michael Tilson Thomas", "title": "Michael Tilson Thomas On The Thrills And Challenges Of Conducting An Orchestra", "question_index": 5, "text": "...And that it would be something like, never perform boring works.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "785479448", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Michael Tilson Thomas", "title": "Michael Tilson Thomas On The Thrills And Challenges Of Conducting An Orchestra", "question_index": 6, "text": "I have a conducting question - I mean, a stick question. You studied classical stick technique. How much of that do you use now, and how much of your technique is based on what you've, like, learned and improvised over the years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, never perform with your heart not being in it. Never allow yourself to get to the point where it's a job. Always make sure that your spirit is focused so that communicating music to other people"}
{"id": "785479448", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Michael Tilson Thomas", "title": "Michael Tilson Thomas On The Thrills And Challenges Of Conducting An Orchestra", "question_index": 7, "text": "You were very close to Leonard Bernstein. Do you feel like you learned a lot about conducting technique from him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's definitely a mixture of both. I think the easiest way for you to understand this is that there's a constant give-and-take process going on in the rehearsals and in the performance itself. So ther"}
{"id": "785479448", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Michael Tilson Thomas", "title": "Michael Tilson Thomas On The Thrills And Challenges Of Conducting An Orchestra", "question_index": 8, "text": "You were on the road with James Brown once, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course, I learned a lot from him by observing him and mostly through the kind of colloquy concerning music that we had over many years. When I was studying pieces, I had the opportunity to, you kno"}
{"id": "785479448", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Michael Tilson Thomas", "title": "Michael Tilson Thomas On The Thrills And Challenges Of Conducting An Orchestra", "question_index": 9, "text": "So did you learn anything you could apply?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was with him for a couple of days. I met him in Boston. He was doing a little - he was doing a show in a small jazz club. And I told him I was a great admirer of his, and he said, well, come o"}
{"id": "785479448", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Michael Tilson Thomas", "title": "Michael Tilson Thomas On The Thrills And Challenges Of Conducting An Orchestra", "question_index": 10, "text": "So did it change the way you conducted at all or the way you organized your beat?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely because what - I realized that he was focused on the exact duration of the perceivable present. In every particular piece, the stroke of the beat had a certain length. He wanted the trap dr"}
{"id": "785479448", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Michael Tilson Thomas", "title": "Michael Tilson Thomas On The Thrills And Challenges Of Conducting An Orchestra", "question_index": 11, "text": "But you didn't have the orchestra to do the beat on the one", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It didn't change the way I conducted so much, but it changed the way I could listen to music and imagine how the ictus, the exact moment of the attack in music, could be really artfully crafted to pro"}
{"id": "785479448", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Michael Tilson Thomas", "title": "Michael Tilson Thomas On The Thrills And Challenges Of Conducting An Orchestra", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It didn't change the way I conducted so much, but it changed the way I could listen to music and imagine how the ictus, the exact moment of the attack in music, could be really artfully crafted to pro"}
{"id": "785479448", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Michael Tilson Thomas", "title": "Michael Tilson Thomas On The Thrills And Challenges Of Conducting An Orchestra", "question_index": 13, "text": "Oh, right", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I have the orchestra do whatever's necessary."}
{"id": "785479448", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Michael Tilson Thomas", "title": "Michael Tilson Thomas On The Thrills And Challenges Of Conducting An Orchestra", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I have the orchestra do whatever's necessary."}
{"id": "785479448", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Michael Tilson Thomas", "title": "Michael Tilson Thomas On The Thrills And Challenges Of Conducting An Orchestra", "question_index": 15, "text": "So that's Boris Thomashefsky, the star of the Yiddish stage, who is the late grandfather of my guest, conductor Michael Tilson Thomas. Michael Tilson Thomas, welcome back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Israel, singing in Yiddish)."}
{"id": "785479448", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Michael Tilson Thomas", "title": "Michael Tilson Thomas On The Thrills And Challenges Of Conducting An Orchestra", "question_index": 16, "text": "So your grandfather sang in synagogues in the Ukraine and on the Lower East Side of Manhattan before singing on the stage. Do you think he was influenced as a singer by the cantorial tradition?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. Pleasure."}
{"id": "785479448", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Michael Tilson Thomas", "title": "Michael Tilson Thomas On The Thrills And Challenges Of Conducting An Orchestra", "question_index": 17, "text": "The role of the Yiddish theater was very important for Jewish immigrants to the United States, many of whom spoke only Yiddish. And so they couldn't read the regular newspapers. A lot of the English-language theater would not have literal meaning to them because they wouldn't understand the language. So the Yiddish stage, I mean, that was a really important - particularly in New York - a really important place for gathering and for doing anything cultural.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very much so because in Boris' family, all my great-great-grandfathers had been mostly khazns - cantors - except the ones who had become, instead, badchens - that's to say, kind of village entertainer"}
{"id": "785479448", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Michael Tilson Thomas", "title": "Michael Tilson Thomas On The Thrills And Challenges Of Conducting An Orchestra", "question_index": 18, "text": "The name Thomashefsky is such a famous name in the world of theater and in the world of Yiddish theater. I grew up knowing that name. I knew that they were - Thomashefskys were famous performers on the Yiddish stage, but that's about all I knew. Your last name is Thomas, which is an abbreviated version of Thomashefsky. How did Thomashefsky become Thomas?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, absolutely. Of course, there were very many Yiddish newspapers in New York and Philadelphia and Chicago and all of these major cities at that time. But for the audience to go to the theater, to "}
{"id": "785479448", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Michael Tilson Thomas", "title": "Michael Tilson Thomas On The Thrills And Challenges Of Conducting An Orchestra", "question_index": 19, "text": "Were you aware of that when you were growing up? Your grandfather was dead, but your grandmother lived until you were 16 or 17. And she lived nearby, and I think you were pretty close to her. Did you get a sense of people stalking her? Or was it, like, way too late for that because she was already in her 70s?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It really started with my father, who was trying to make his own way in life in the theater, and he simply was unable to do that. Everywhere that he went, he would mention his last name, and right awa"}
{"id": "785479448", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Michael Tilson Thomas", "title": "Michael Tilson Thomas On The Thrills And Challenges Of Conducting An Orchestra", "question_index": 20, "text": "Although your grandfather died before you were born, you got to know your grandmother, Bessie Thomashefsky, pretty well. And tell us about the kind of parts that she played in the Yiddish theater.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she had also moved out to LA. And one of the reasons for doing that, outside of getting some character parts in movies she hoped for, was that she wanted to get away from the whole scene in New "}
{"id": "785479448", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Michael Tilson Thomas", "title": "Michael Tilson Thomas On The Thrills And Challenges Of Conducting An Orchestra", "question_index": 21, "text": "What did she tell you about women's rights and the disparities facing women when she was young?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Bessie started out as a young girl. She was about 5 when she arrived in the United States from the Ukraine. And she met Boris, kind of eloped with him when she was a young teenager and 14, 15 years ol"}
{"id": "785479448", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Michael Tilson Thomas", "title": "Michael Tilson Thomas On The Thrills And Challenges Of Conducting An Orchestra", "question_index": 22, "text": "That's so funny. So she got arrested.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she went from being a little girl in a village that was asked to bring in the goats and do other domestic chores to working in a tobacco factory in Baltimore and then suddenly finding herself on"}
{"id": "785479448", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Michael Tilson Thomas", "title": "Michael Tilson Thomas On The Thrills And Challenges Of Conducting An Orchestra", "question_index": 23, "text": "Like she insisted on getting arrested", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She did. That's exactly the way she told me the story, little..."}
{"id": "785479448", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Michael Tilson Thomas", "title": "Michael Tilson Thomas On The Thrills And Challenges Of Conducting An Orchestra", "question_index": 24, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She did. That's exactly the way she told me the story, little..."}
{"id": "785479448", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Michael Tilson Thomas", "title": "Michael Tilson Thomas On The Thrills And Challenges Of Conducting An Orchestra", "question_index": 25, "text": "So I want to play a recording by your grandmother, the late Bessie Thomashefsky, singing a song, and I'm going to have you introduce it. This is actually from a DVD outtake from your show. So tell us about this song and when you think it was recorded.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's 2012 interview with conductor Michael Tilson Thomas. He's among this year's recipients of the Kennedy Center Honor"}
{"id": "785479448", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Michael Tilson Thomas", "title": "Michael Tilson Thomas On The Thrills And Challenges Of Conducting An Orchestra", "question_index": 26, "text": "OK. So this is Bessie Thomashefsky, recorded approximately when?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is a little introduction to a song called Minka's song - \"Minka's Monologue,\" one of Bessie's most famous parts in which she's playing a girl from a little village who's come to the United States"}
{"id": "785479448", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Michael Tilson Thomas", "title": "Michael Tilson Thomas On The Thrills And Challenges Of Conducting An Orchestra", "question_index": 27, "text": "Wow. OK, here we go.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "1920-something."}
{"id": "785479448", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Michael Tilson Thomas", "title": "Michael Tilson Thomas On The Thrills And Challenges Of Conducting An Orchestra", "question_index": 28, "text": "So that was the late Bessie Thomashefsky singing in Yiddish. And she and Boris Thomashefsky are the late grandparents of my guest, conductor Michael Tilson Thomas. So what kind of music did your grandmother introduce you to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing in Yiddish)."}
{"id": "785479448", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Michael Tilson Thomas", "title": "Michael Tilson Thomas On The Thrills And Challenges Of Conducting An Orchestra", "question_index": 29, "text": "That's really interesting. You know, one of the things she says - one of the things you describe her having said to you when you were young is, you're more like me than your parents are; they're more conventional, and you have more of a - what'd she say? - like, a creative spirit or something.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was lucky enough to hear her deliver a lot of her biggest numbers right there in our living room since she would arrive every weekend to our house, and we would put on a little show together, which "}
{"id": "785479448", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Michael Tilson Thomas", "title": "Michael Tilson Thomas On The Thrills And Challenges Of Conducting An Orchestra", "question_index": 30, "text": "Did you take that to heart?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That - she said, your parents are very lovely people, but terribly conventional. You're like me; you're an adventurer. You'll have to prove something."}
{"id": "785479448", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Michael Tilson Thomas", "title": "Michael Tilson Thomas On The Thrills And Challenges Of Conducting An Orchestra", "question_index": 31, "text": "So when your grandmother died and you were, I don't know, 16 or 17, was there music at her funeral?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I paid attention to it. I didn't know quite what it meant. And as I listened to her tell all these stories of her life, from her childhood through her stardom and then even her reflections on the way "}
{"id": "785479448", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Michael Tilson Thomas", "title": "Michael Tilson Thomas On The Thrills And Challenges Of Conducting An Orchestra", "question_index": 32, "text": "So you mentioned some advice in your show that your grandmother gave you about - when you're on stage, you have to remember that the people in the uppermost balcony are the people who paid the least but are enjoying it the most, and you have to - even if you're whispering, you have to make sure that those people can hear you. How has that affected you as a conductor?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There wasn't much music at my grandmother's funeral. There were a few prayers, and there were very few people there. And her plaque just says, Bessie Thomashefsky, Yiddish theater pioneer and star, wh"}
{"id": "785479448", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Michael Tilson Thomas", "title": "Michael Tilson Thomas On The Thrills And Challenges Of Conducting An Orchestra", "question_index": 33, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That we play in such big halls sometimes in classical music, and they're halls designed to be very rich, which is on the one hand, very nice, the gorgeous sound that's there. But to get the sound to b"}
{"id": "785479448", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Michael Tilson Thomas", "title": "Michael Tilson Thomas On The Thrills And Challenges Of Conducting An Orchestra", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So you're trying to make every single moment completely distinct. Another way Bessie had of saying that - she said, listen - when you're doing an accent, you've got to watch out for the ninth word. It"}
{"id": "785479448", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Michael Tilson Thomas", "title": "Michael Tilson Thomas On The Thrills And Challenges Of Conducting An Orchestra", "question_index": 35, "text": "That's really great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And suddenly, you know, around that - you'll suddenly drop the accent. You'll drop it. You've got to keep the contour of it all the way going through. Same thing in music."}
{"id": "785479448", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Michael Tilson Thomas", "title": "Michael Tilson Thomas On The Thrills And Challenges Of Conducting An Orchestra", "question_index": 36, "text": "Michael Tilson Thomas, thank you. It's been great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And suddenly, you know, around that - you'll suddenly drop the accent. You'll drop it. You've got to keep the contour of it all the way going through. Same thing in music."}
{"id": "785479653", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Mary Previte", "title": "'We Took Terror Out Of Their Lives': Remembering Youth Advocate Mary Previte", "question_index": 0, "text": "This was your big test.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I arrived on the second floor, the boys were locked down. They were behind steel doors. They were doing a clanging, banging - just, like, bringing the roof down with the noise. That was what I ca"}
{"id": "785479653", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Mary Previte", "title": "'We Took Terror Out Of Their Lives': Remembering Youth Advocate Mary Previte", "question_index": 1, "text": "So what did he say when you said, what is this about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was no question. I mean, here - they're standing by. These are people that had been punched in the face, kicked. There had been violence against the staff. There had been violence against kids. "}
{"id": "785479653", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Mary Previte", "title": "'We Took Terror Out Of Their Lives': Remembering Youth Advocate Mary Previte", "question_index": 2, "text": "How else did the kids test you that evening?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was - he just - something about recreation or something. And I thought, well, you know, you could fix something like that. There were ways of fixing no recreation or not enough fresh air or s"}
{"id": "785479653", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Mary Previte", "title": "'We Took Terror Out Of Their Lives': Remembering Youth Advocate Mary Previte", "question_index": 3, "text": "Mary Previte, you are not a physically imposing presence. You're about 5'4, about 125 pounds. You know, you live in the suburbs. You're not the kind of person who is going to show muscle and people will feel so intimidated by you that they'll behave. When you showed up that night, you know, during the riot, kids started asking you questions like, how much did that dress cost?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, really, that was really it. It was like a test to see if I was part of the thems (ph). The thems were officers that had been involved with brute force against youngsters. The business of mace - "}
{"id": "785479653", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Mary Previte", "title": "'We Took Terror Out Of Their Lives': Remembering Youth Advocate Mary Previte", "question_index": 4, "text": "Were you drinking? What kind of food were you serving? And now, when I read this in your book, I was thinking, well, if this happened to me, I wouldn't know how to interpret it because I'd figured they were testing me, but I wouldn't know, like, what they were looking for in my response. You know, were they seeing if they could ask me questions that were too personal that I shouldn't be responding to like what my dress cost or what I was doing at home that night? Or should I just respond and just be really open with them? You know, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely, because..."}
{"id": "785479653", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Mary Previte", "title": "'We Took Terror Out Of Their Lives': Remembering Youth Advocate Mary Previte", "question_index": 5, "text": "Respond and be open.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that was my feeling."}
{"id": "785479653", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Mary Previte", "title": "'We Took Terror Out Of Their Lives': Remembering Youth Advocate Mary Previte", "question_index": 6, "text": "You know, as you say in your book, there's a lot of detention officers, correction officers who work by the creed that if you treat people with kindness, they will see your kindness as weakness, and they will take advantage of what they perceive as your weakness. They'll take advantage of your kindness.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We need to be open. I felt that I need to not - needed to show myself as an ordinary human being because when you put violence and force out as your weapon, guaranteed, violence and force is what you "}
{"id": "785479653", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Mary Previte", "title": "'We Took Terror Out Of Their Lives': Remembering Youth Advocate Mary Previte", "question_index": 7, "text": "What's your philosophy at the detention center about how to help the young people who are there in the short time that you have to spend with them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think that's - what you're describing is true. I disagree with it, and I don't operate my youth center from that. I have personally observed over 20 years that the officers that are most succe"}
{"id": "785479653", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Mary Previte", "title": "'We Took Terror Out Of Their Lives': Remembering Youth Advocate Mary Previte", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first of all, there's only one set of rules, Mary Previte's rules."}
{"id": "785479653", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Mary Previte", "title": "'We Took Terror Out Of Their Lives': Remembering Youth Advocate Mary Previte", "question_index": 9, "text": "Have a lot of the young people who you've seen been abused by their parents? Is that a contributing factor, too, do you think?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The boys and girls come from a squishy world with no rules, no structure; do whatever you want. If there have been no parents around, they come and go in their homes as they please, when they please. "}
{"id": "785479653", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Mary Previte", "title": "'We Took Terror Out Of Their Lives': Remembering Youth Advocate Mary Previte", "question_index": 10, "text": "I want to ask you about something in your background that I have a feeling has some connection to the work you're doing now and the philosophy that you take. You grew up in China, where your parents were Methodist missionaries. And I believe it was the beginning of World War II. You and all the students and teachers from your school were taken prisoners in a Japanese concentration camp after Japan invaded China. Did you have experiences in this concentration camp that helped you do the work that you're doing now in some way or understand how you should be doing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very, very common - I think one of the thing that really astonished me - we began to see boys and girls just blossoming in our classroom. And you say, why is this? We've had people walk down the halls"}
{"id": "785479653", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Mary Previte", "title": "'We Took Terror Out Of Their Lives': Remembering Youth Advocate Mary Previte", "question_index": 11, "text": "Well, who did - the teachers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I didn't think of that until much later. But I think a lot of what I do at the youth center is very similar to what our teachers marched - that were marched off to prison camp with us. We had th"}
{"id": "785479653", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Mary Previte", "title": "'We Took Terror Out Of Their Lives': Remembering Youth Advocate Mary Previte", "question_index": 12, "text": "Exactly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The teachers did. The teachers did. And here were guard dogs and electrified wires and bayonet practice and all this - all the other horrors of war that no child should ever know. And these teachers w"}
{"id": "785479653", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Mary Previte", "title": "'We Took Terror Out Of Their Lives': Remembering Youth Advocate Mary Previte", "question_index": 13, "text": "What kind of expectations of your behavior did the teachers have while you were in the concentration camp?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We knew when we would get up in the morning. We'd hear Ms. Start (ph) come in to nudge us all to get up. We knew when we had to scrub our little portion of floor that was around our steamer trunks. We"}
{"id": "785479653", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Mary Previte", "title": "'We Took Terror Out Of Their Lives': Remembering Youth Advocate Mary Previte", "question_index": 14, "text": "You are from such an incredibly different world than the world that you work in now. I mean, you are the child of missionary parents. You grew up in China, where your parents were Methodist missionaries. You went to a kind of fine and very strict school for the children of missionaries. Then, as we'll get to in a second, you spent several years in a Japanese concentration camp. Do you tell the young people at the detention center about your experiences in the concentration camp?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's conversations from 1993 and 1994 with children's advocate Mary Previte, who died last month at age 87."}
{"id": "785479653", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Mary Previte", "title": "'We Took Terror Out Of Their Lives': Remembering Youth Advocate Mary Previte", "question_index": 15, "text": "What do you tell them about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sometimes, I do. They're absolutely fascinated."}
{"id": "785479653", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Mary Previte", "title": "'We Took Terror Out Of Their Lives': Remembering Youth Advocate Mary Previte", "question_index": 16, "text": "One of the stories I bet the young people really want to hear about you has to do with how you lost your hand.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the whole story. Sometimes, we'll sit down in a whole group, and I'll tell them the whole story, and they will just be fascinated. I was sort of a born storyteller, so I love to go and tell them"}
{"id": "785479653", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Mary Previte", "title": "'We Took Terror Out Of Their Lives': Remembering Youth Advocate Mary Previte", "question_index": 17, "text": "Well, let me stop you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That will shut them down to complete quiet when I tell them how I lost my hand in an accident. And all of a sudden, it's like I broke a code. You don't talk about somebody has one hand or some, you kn"}
{"id": "785479653", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Mary Previte", "title": "'We Took Terror Out Of Their Lives': Remembering Youth Advocate Mary Previte", "question_index": 18, "text": "Before you do, I just want to say you are wearing a short-sleeve, red and white polka dot dress today, and your arm is severed a little above the wrist.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Go ahead."}
{"id": "785479653", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Mary Previte", "title": "'We Took Terror Out Of Their Lives': Remembering Youth Advocate Mary Previte", "question_index": 19, "text": "And you're not wearing a prosthetic device to cover up the fact that you're missing a hand. It's - you know, if you look at you in a short-sleeve dress, it's obvious.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The wrist."}
{"id": "785479653", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Mary Previte", "title": "'We Took Terror Out Of Their Lives': Remembering Youth Advocate Mary Previte", "question_index": 20, "text": "Right. So for a young person who's meeting you for the first time, they're going to notice that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very obvious."}
{"id": "785479653", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Mary Previte", "title": "'We Took Terror Out Of Their Lives': Remembering Youth Advocate Mary Previte", "question_index": 21, "text": "So - and as you said, they're not going to ask about it because you don't do that. So how do you bring it up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "785479653", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Mary Previte", "title": "'We Took Terror Out Of Their Lives': Remembering Youth Advocate Mary Previte", "question_index": 22, "text": "The kind of work that you're in - there's such a high burnout level there, and you just get emotionally exhausted by it, I think, after awhile. You know there's no instant solutions. You're not kidding yourself about how you're, like, working complete magic, and everybody who walks out of your center is saved. What keeps you going in spite of all the obstacles and all the losses?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, sometimes I'll bring it up. There - I tell this story for a couple of different lessons, so I may tell it in a different way each time. Some kid will say, so-and-so just got sentenced, and he wa"}
{"id": "785479653", "date": "2019-12-06", "guest": "Mary Previte", "title": "'We Took Terror Out Of Their Lives': Remembering Youth Advocate Mary Previte", "question_index": 23, "text": "Mary Previte, thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The little gifts. I get so many little gifts every day, and I look for the short-term and the little because I can never expect the long-term. And when a girl that has been in crisis and just so hurti"}
{"id": "786675750", "date": "2019-12-10", "guest": "Peter Bergen", "title": "'Trump And His Generals' Author: The President Is Now Surrounded By 'Yes Men'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Earlier in the Trump administration, there were three generals in key national security positions - Jim Mattis, Secretary of Defense; John Kelly, who directed Homeland Security and then became White House chief of staff; and H.R. McMaster, who became national security adviser, replacing General Michael Flynn, who was forced out after lying about a phone call with the Russian ambassador. But eventually, Trump was at war with the generals he'd once embraced, and they left the administration. How the generals tried to prevent Trump from acting impulsively, how their relationships with the president soured, why they left and how their absence has affected national security are subjects of the new book \"Trump And His Generals: The Cost Of Chaos.\" My guest is the author, Peter Bergen. He's a national security analyst for CNN and vice president of the think tank New America, where he co-directs the Center for the Future of War. Peter Bergen, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Let's start with the Washington Post report about the trove of documents it obtained that reveal a secret history of the war in Afghanistan. The Post article says this shows that U.S. officials failed to tell the truth about the war, making rosy pronouncements they knew to be false and hiding unmistakable evidence that the war had become unwinnable. First of all, what was your reaction to reading this secret history?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "786675750", "date": "2019-12-10", "guest": "Peter Bergen", "title": "'Trump And His Generals' Author: The President Is Now Surrounded By 'Yes Men'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Well, you know, the Post opening paragraph says that these rosy pronouncements about the war in Afghanistan hide - hid the fact that the war was unwinnable. And then I guess one of the questions I have is, what is winnable?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, just general lack of surprise. I mean, I've been visiting Afghanistan for three decades, and so I have a sense of what it's been like. And what the Washington Post report doesn't mention is - yo"}
{"id": "786675750", "date": "2019-12-10", "guest": "Peter Bergen", "title": "'Trump And His Generals' Author: The President Is Now Surrounded By 'Yes Men'", "question_index": 2, "text": "One of the plans that was presented to the Trump administration was presented by Erik Prince, the founder of Blackwater, the private security company that became very controversial. Prince wanted to outsource Afghanistan to private contractors through his company that would be on long-term assignments overseen by America, and these would be retired special ops soldiers. How seriously was this plan taken?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that is the question. I mean, I think we're using the wrong verb here. Winning the war in Afghanistan is not the right verb to use because what does that even mean? Managing the conflict so that"}
{"id": "786675750", "date": "2019-12-10", "guest": "Peter Bergen", "title": "'Trump And His Generals' Author: The President Is Now Surrounded By 'Yes Men'", "question_index": 3, "text": "What's the status of U.S. negotiations with the Taliban?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it was taken pretty seriously, at least at the White House. You know, Steve Bannon, who was then the chief strategist for the president, was a skeptic of the Afghan war, and he saw this "}
{"id": "786675750", "date": "2019-12-10", "guest": "Peter Bergen", "title": "'Trump And His Generals' Author: The President Is Now Surrounded By 'Yes Men'", "question_index": 4, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Peter Bergen, a national security analyst for CNN and author of the new book \"Trump And His Generals: The Cost Of Chaos.\" Why did you want to write a book about Trump and the generals he brought into his administration?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that is a great question. I mean, right now, as you recall, September 7, President Trump tweeted, you know, we were going to meet at Camp David with the Taliban and the Afghan government. Basica"}
{"id": "786675750", "date": "2019-12-10", "guest": "Peter Bergen", "title": "'Trump And His Generals' Author: The President Is Now Surrounded By 'Yes Men'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Once these generals were in the administration and got to know Trump, it seemed that one of their goals was to prevent Trump from doing damage and from doing anything impulsive.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thought, here is the first president in American history who never served in the military and never served in public office, so in our almost 250 years, he's a quite unusual president. And what will"}
{"id": "786675750", "date": "2019-12-10", "guest": "Peter Bergen", "title": "'Trump And His Generals' Author: The President Is Now Surrounded By 'Yes Men'", "question_index": 6, "text": "One difference, one of the many differences, is that Trump uses very bombastic, inflammatory language, for instance, with President Kim in North Korea. And then at the last minute, he pulled back from the brink and tried to become bros with his opponent. But, like, you never know what's going to happen. It's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. I mean, Jim Mattis, the secretary of defense, was a source of a lot of frustration in the White House because he constantly slow-rolled, as they say, any kind of military options. I mean, "}
{"id": "786675750", "date": "2019-12-10", "guest": "Peter Bergen", "title": "'Trump And His Generals' Author: The President Is Now Surrounded By 'Yes Men'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Peter Bergen, a national security analyst for CNN and author of the new book \"Trump And His Generals: The Cost Of Chaos.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think you've hit on the - another point which I try and make in the book, which is Trump is sort of consistently inconsistent. He talked about fire and fury with North Korea. Then the next thing you"}
{"id": "786675750", "date": "2019-12-10", "guest": "Peter Bergen", "title": "'Trump And His Generals' Author: The President Is Now Surrounded By 'Yes Men'", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Peter Bergen, a national security analyst for CNN and author of the new book \"Trump And His Generals: The Cost Of Chaos.\" Let's get back to North Korea. You tell a story in your book of a national security briefing that Trump had in the Oval Office in which he was shown highly classified images of North Korea's nuclear facilities and nuclear sites, and he was shown images of that region at night. Tell us that story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think you've hit on the - another point which I try and make in the book, which is Trump is sort of consistently inconsistent. He talked about fire and fury with North Korea. Then the next thing you"}
{"id": "786675750", "date": "2019-12-10", "guest": "Peter Bergen", "title": "'Trump And His Generals' Author: The President Is Now Surrounded By 'Yes Men'", "question_index": 9, "text": "So North Korea just announced that it had conducted a, quote, \"very important\" test at a missile engine site. And North Korea has given the U.S. the deadline of December 31 to ease sanctions on North Korea. What do you make of this missile engine test - if that's what it was, yeah?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So mid-April of 2017, the National Geospatial Agency, which is obscure but a very important agency in the U.S. government, did a presentation for Trump at - this is right in that kind of time period w"}
{"id": "786675750", "date": "2019-12-10", "guest": "Peter Bergen", "title": "'Trump And His Generals' Author: The President Is Now Surrounded By 'Yes Men'", "question_index": 10, "text": "My guest is Peter Bergen, a CNN national security analyst and author of the new book \"Trump And His Generals: The Cost Of Chaos.\" After a break, we'll talk about how Trump's military advisers opposed the decision to withdraw from the Iran nuclear deal, Trump's antagonism toward NATO and how Trump has replaced his war cabinet with people Peter Bergen describes as yes men. I'm Terry GROSS, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Kim - yeah. I mean, Kim Jong Un wants to do one thing, which is to get the sanctions off and grow his economy. And that's - you know, and the Trump-Kim Jong Un sort of bromance, you know, hasn't"}
{"id": "786675750", "date": "2019-12-10", "guest": "Peter Bergen", "title": "'Trump And His Generals' Author: The President Is Now Surrounded By 'Yes Men'", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Peter Bergen, author of the new book \"Trump And His Generals: The Cost Of Chaos.\" The focus is on three generals who were in Trump's Cabinet - Jim Mattis, secretary of defense; H.R. McMaster, national security adviser; and John Kelly, director of Homeland Security who became White House chief of staff. In spite of Trump's initial romance with the idea of having generals on his team, they were each forced out or resigned out of principle. Peter Bergen is a national security analyst for CNN, co-director of the Center on the Future of War at the think tank New America and the author of five previous books on national security. Let's talk about Iran. The generals and Rex Tillerson, when he was secretary of state, tried to stop Trump from scrapping the Iran nuclear deal. They failed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Kim - yeah. I mean, Kim Jong Un wants to do one thing, which is to get the sanctions off and grow his economy. And that's - you know, and the Trump-Kim Jong Un sort of bromance, you know, hasn't"}
{"id": "786675750", "date": "2019-12-10", "guest": "Peter Bergen", "title": "'Trump And His Generals' Author: The President Is Now Surrounded By 'Yes Men'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Why did they fail? Like, who - was it Trump himself who overruled them? Or was it Trump and Bannon?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "786675750", "date": "2019-12-10", "guest": "Peter Bergen", "title": "'Trump And His Generals' Author: The President Is Now Surrounded By 'Yes Men'", "question_index": 13, "text": "How close have we come to war with Iran? And I ask that in part because after Iranian forces shot down an unmanned U.S. surveillance drone, several days later, Trump tweeted that he had stopped a U.S. airstrike against Iran 10 minutes before it was supposed to launch and that he called it off because he thought it was an inappropriate response to an attack on an unmanned drone, whereas our attack risked killing about 150 people if it had proceeded. So like, 10 minutes - that's a really small window.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was Trump - you know, the day - I think it was May 18, 2018, that we - that the United States pulled out of the deal. That was a week after John Bolton, the major Iran hawk, had become nati"}
{"id": "786675750", "date": "2019-12-10", "guest": "Peter Bergen", "title": "'Trump And His Generals' Author: The President Is Now Surrounded By 'Yes Men'", "question_index": 14, "text": "You write that General Mattis, when he was secretary of defense, tried to insulate the Pentagon from Trump's politics. How are the politics threatening to interfere in the Pentagon?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, 10 minutes might be, you know, kind of an exaggeration. But I mean, I talked to an American official for the book, and he said, you know, the planes were leaving. That's the title of the"}
{"id": "786675750", "date": "2019-12-10", "guest": "Peter Bergen", "title": "'Trump And His Generals' Author: The President Is Now Surrounded By 'Yes Men'", "question_index": 15, "text": "How close did Trump come to taking us out of NATO?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think Jim Mattis saw his role as kind of running interference with a president who is, after all, mercurial and, in many ways, inexperienced. And so he would - you know, General Mick Nicholson"}
{"id": "786675750", "date": "2019-12-10", "guest": "Peter Bergen", "title": "'Trump And His Generals' Author: The President Is Now Surrounded By 'Yes Men'", "question_index": 16, "text": "If Generals Mattis, McMaster and Kelly provided restraints for some of Trump's impulses and held him back from impulsive moves against other countries, like Iran and North Korea, now that those generals are gone, who is - if anyone - providing those restraints?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I think that's a hard one to answer. I mean, certainly he's talked about it and threatened it. And he - there's a great scene in the book where Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, comes to"}
{"id": "786675750", "date": "2019-12-10", "guest": "Peter Bergen", "title": "'Trump And His Generals' Author: The President Is Now Surrounded By 'Yes Men'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Peter Bergen, a national security analyst for CNN and author of the new book \"Trump And His Generals: The Cost Of Chaos.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that it's a very different cast of characters. I mean, Trump is now running his Cabinet like he ran his real estate company, which is it's a bunch of yes men supporting a one-man show. And you"}
{"id": "786675750", "date": "2019-12-10", "guest": "Peter Bergen", "title": "'Trump And His Generals' Author: The President Is Now Surrounded By 'Yes Men'", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Peter Bergen. He's the author of the new book \"Trump And His Generals: The Cost Of Chaos.\" He's also a national security analyst for CNN. So a couple of things about Mike Pence that you mentioned in the book that I'm curious about - you write that the only foreign policy issue he cared about was the persecution of Christians in the Middle East and that he started one of the national security meetings by asking Dan Coats, who was then the director of national intelligence, to start the meeting with a prayer. So I'm wondering, first of all, with Dan Coats, was that atypical to start a national security meeting with a prayer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that it's a very different cast of characters. I mean, Trump is now running his Cabinet like he ran his real estate company, which is it's a bunch of yes men supporting a one-man show. And you"}
{"id": "786675750", "date": "2019-12-10", "guest": "Peter Bergen", "title": "'Trump And His Generals' Author: The President Is Now Surrounded By 'Yes Men'", "question_index": 19, "text": "You've been writing about terrorism since before 9/11. You interviewed bin Laden before 9/11. What do you think is the state of ISIS now? The American military killed ISIS' leader, al-Baghdadi. But there's so many freelancers out there. And you know, there's the recent knife attack on the London Bridge that was attributed to somebody who identified with ISIS. As we record this, we don't yet know for sure what the status is of the member of the Saudi military who killed three Americans on the military base in Pensacola.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, the officials who were in this national security meeting in the Situation at the White House had never had the experience of starting a meeting with a prayer that was led by Dan Coats, then the di"}
{"id": "786675750", "date": "2019-12-10", "guest": "Peter Bergen", "title": "'Trump And His Generals' Author: The President Is Now Surrounded By 'Yes Men'", "question_index": 20, "text": "Has any of the information that emerged during the impeachment inquiry clarify for you any of the questions that you've raised in your book or - and vice versa? Have the things you've reported on in your book - do you think that they help clarify information that's emerged in the impeachment inquiry?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, killing ideas is harder than killing people. And you know, we - yes, President Trump authorized the operation in October that killed Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the leader of ISIS. President Obama aut"}
{"id": "786675750", "date": "2019-12-10", "guest": "Peter Bergen", "title": "'Trump And His Generals' Author: The President Is Now Surrounded By 'Yes Men'", "question_index": 21, "text": "The subtitle of your book is \"The Cost Of Chaos.\" Why did you give it that subtitle?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think on the impeachment inquiry, I mean, it - you know, here is a president who came into office who got his political start pushing a conspiracy theory - the conspiracy theory that President"}
{"id": "786675750", "date": "2019-12-10", "guest": "Peter Bergen", "title": "'Trump And His Generals' Author: The President Is Now Surrounded By 'Yes Men'", "question_index": 22, "text": "The generals.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, look. These guys all came in, and they were essential to the first year or..."}
{"id": "786675750", "date": "2019-12-10", "guest": "Peter Bergen", "title": "'Trump And His Generals' Author: The President Is Now Surrounded By 'Yes Men'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Peter Bergen, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...A year - the generals - the first year or two of this administration. I think it's got more chaotic. If you look at - in 2017, you know, there was a process that H.R. McMaster, the national securit"}
{"id": "786675750", "date": "2019-12-10", "guest": "Peter Bergen", "title": "'Trump And His Generals' Author: The President Is Now Surrounded By 'Yes Men'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Peter Bergen is a CNN national security analyst and author of the new book \"Trump And His Generals: The Cost Of Chaos.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We had promised you an interview with actor Adam Driver today, but unfortunately, we weren't able to do it as planned. But the good news is instead we're going to hear one of our favorite interviews of the year with Conan O'Brien. He's been up to some new things. He changed the format of his late-night TBS show and cut it back to half an hour. And he moved into the podcast world with a popular show called \"Conan O\u2019Brien Needs A Friend,\" featuring his conversations with comics, actors and writers. Conan O'Brien was a comedy writer having worked on \"The Simpsons\" and \"Saturday Night Live\" when he first started hosting NBC's \"Late Night With Conan O'Brien\" in the 12:30 spot that had been David Letterman's. O'Brien was unknown as a performer, and a lot of people thought he wouldn't make it. But now he's been hosting late-night shows longer than anyone - 26 years. His career has taken some surprising twists and turns, which we'll talk about. But he's never stopped being funny.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 1, "text": "Conan O'Brien, welcome back to FRESH AIR. It's been a long time, and it's a great pleasure to have you back. You're kind of shaking things up in your life. I mean, you've changed your hour TBS TV show into a half hour. And you're doing all these new podcast ventures and doing stand-up comedy. And now you have this series of performances at clubs around the country kind of produced by Team Coco. So what's going on in your life that made you want to make all these changes?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 2, "text": "I knew it. I knew if I asked, you would tell me that. Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm having a nervous breakdown."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 3, "text": "I ask the questions that get the deep answers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. No. If I am, it's a very..."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 4, "text": "Do you think the things that you find funny or the comedy that you want to do has been changing as you get older?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's just called - that's just called not preparing, Larry. (Imitating Larry King) That's my technique is I just get up and I eat a giant ham sandwich and then I go in and I say whatever happens and"}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 5, "text": "Yeah, definitely, definitely.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, probably. Well, I don't think the things that I find funny have changed. I still find the same things funny. And I really love the silly and the silliness and the absurdity that I can find in ev"}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 6, "text": "Wait. Did you find out for real when she - this was a whole bit where you had, like, a cold, so you went to see the doctor or the nurse. And then you insisted - she kept telling you, everything's fine.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 7, "text": "And you insisted that she listen to your chest. And she said, did anyone ever tell you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 8, "text": "...That you have a heart murmur?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 9, "text": "She used a different word for it, but - and you looked really...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's true, yeah."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 10, "text": "...Surprised. And I wasn't sure...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 11, "text": "...Whether that was shtick or real.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I was. I was."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, that's good.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no. It was not shtick. It was absolutely real. And I think that's why it reads as funny. I'm fine, by the way. I've never had any issue."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. This is Conan O'Brien's last interview, by the way."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 14, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thankfully, I never had any issue."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 15, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry Gross had the last interview with Conan."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 16, "text": "So are there jokes that you feel like you can't tell anymore in this era of heightened feminist awareness and the #MeToo movement? Like, one of the things you always used to do was, like, your Bob Hope growl at attractive women. I mean, you went really...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I like comedy that is about me as a person who's somewhat ridiculous going through life and whether it's Chaplin-esque or Jacques Tati or it's just - it's about a person encountering - being embar"}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yeah. That - I mean, that was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah (growling)."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 18, "text": "And you'd massage your nipples...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. You know what? I still..."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 19, "text": "...As part of the joke. Can you do that anymore?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't let go of..."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yes, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Well, first of all, I always molested myself..."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 21, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Which I think we're still allowed to do."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 22, "text": "No, no, agreed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm being really bluntly honest - as that sexual. And so I don't know that I do the growl as much anymore. But I find that the response is usually women laughing at me because it is such a caricature "}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 23, "text": "You've had the strangest career of all the late-night hosts. You'd been more of a writer than performer when you got your 12:30 late-night show on NBC, coming on right after \"The Tonight Show.\" No one knew who you were, and it took a while for you to catch on. When Leno left \"The Tonight Show,\" you replaced him. Leno got a 10 o'clock show that didn't do well. He wanted to go back to the 11:30 spot, and NBC let him do it. So before your year was up, you were out of the 11:30 spot. They offered you a spot at 12:05 to do \"The Tonight Show.\" And you basically said, that's ridiculous. And you left and, you know, a few months later, started your show on TBS. So your career has had this strange mix of, like, complete stardom and rejection mixed in. And I just think psychologically that must really be like a roller coaster.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd hate to lose it completely."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 24, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That was - first of all, just listening to you summarize it right now, I went through seven episodes of PTSD just listening to your..."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 25, "text": "Then they take it away", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "because this is pre - I mean, it wouldn't happen today. Today, if there was a major \"Late Night\" spot open, there would be 600 candidates from 600 different cable shows. So the whole way I got the sho"}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 26, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "because this is pre - I mean, it wouldn't happen today. Today, if there was a major \"Late Night\" spot open, there would be 600 candidates from 600 different cable shows. So the whole way I got the sho"}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 27, "text": "Was it helpful to you to have audiences who were incredibly enthusiastic about seeing you at this time when you'd been rejected from NBC?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...My predecessor it had - yeah. And then my, you know, my predecessor had had, you know, some difficult times. It all worked out. So the feeling was - at that point, I'd been on the air for 16 years "}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 28, "text": "What helped you through it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Oh, it was - it was therapeutic and satisfying to - you know, all I ever wanted to do was make people laugh. I know that sounds corny. The motivator, to me, is I just really do love getting in f"}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 29, "text": "Mmm hmm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I like being honest about this for other people out there. I had always done some therapy, but I went to - I got a lot of therapy, and I got some help with medication. And that helped a lot. And"}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 30, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Conan O'Brien, and, of course, he has his TBS show at 11 o'clock at night, but he also now has a podcast. It's called \"Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So all those things helped me enormously. And, you know, I've since become a big advocate for people who are - if they're going through something and they're having a hard time - you know, talking to "}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 31, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. If you're just joining us, my guest is Conan O'Brien. In addition to hosting his TBS 11 o'clock show \"Conan,\" he's now deep into the podcast world. His podcast is called \"Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend.\" I remember when I was a guest on your late-night show on NBC back in, I think, like, 2004 when the show was - I was, like, the last guest. And when the show was over and you were leaving the set, you were very generous with your time. You spent a few minutes talking with me. And I introduced my husband to you. He's a big fan. And you said - you said, wow, now that the show is over, I can go back to being depressed. And it was really funny. But at the same time, I thought, I bet there's some truth to that, too, that once you leave the stage, like, depression takes over.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So all those things helped me enormously. And, you know, I've since become a big advocate for people who are - if they're going through something and they're having a hard time - you know, talking to "}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 32, "text": "We're listening to my interview with Conan O'Brien. His TBS show is weeknights at 11. His podcast is called \"Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend.\" We'll talk more after a break. There just happened to be a guitar in the studio when we spoke, so, of course, I asked him to play and sing something. It was great. We'll hear that too. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, it's funny. Everyone has a different - I used to think I'm not depressed; I'm just anxious. And I didn't understand. But I've always been - I was anxious as a little kid. I think I sta"}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 33, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Conan O'Brien. In addition to his TBS late-night show, he has a popular podcast called \"Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend,\" featuring him interviewing comics, actors and writers. He said he's dealth with anxiety and depression during his career, but getting therapy helped him through it. And even though he's juggling several projects now, he's feeling less stressed and less depressed. Do you think some of that is just kind of getting older and just having more perspective?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, it's funny. Everyone has a different - I used to think I'm not depressed; I'm just anxious. And I didn't understand. But I've always been - I was anxious as a little kid. I think I sta"}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 34, "text": "Well, you're not old. You're older...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Definitely. I think getting old has a - gets a bad rap."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 35, "text": "...Than you were.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So far..."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 36, "text": "All right, let me stop you right there. What would - what did you find really scary about childhood? What scared you the most or made you most anxious?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've been lucky. And I've been healthy. And I move around a lot. And I pretty much feel the way I did when I was in my 20s. So I'm very lucky that way. And I understand that all kinds of stuff is goin"}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 37, "text": "And that scared you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my father used to - my father would dress as a clown and hide under the bed and surprise me."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 38, "text": "So maybe I'm making too much of this, but your father was an infectious disease specialist at Women and Brigham's Hospital in...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". No, I would say - as I said, I was really anxious. And I didn't know how I fit into the world. I was not a good athlete, so I would be get - I'd get picked last. I had a strange name. I think it too"}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 39, "text": "Still is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah - still is, actually."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 40, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Still is, actually."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 41, "text": "So your father is an infectious disease expert - specialist. And your mother, until she retired, was a partner in a law firm. So growing up with that, it's, in a way, all about consequences, like germs that can kill you. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "His specialty is microbiology and antibiotic resistance."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 42, "text": "...With your mother, like, if you do the wrong thing - I don't know what kind of law she practiced, but if you do the wrong thing, you can be sued. You can go to prison.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 43, "text": "You know, so...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 44, "text": "Did you grow up with a sense that, like, everything has, like, life-changing consequences?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 45, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "..."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 46, "text": "You know, with self-punishment, I sometimes think there's a sense of - like, if you punish yourself and if you're penitent in some way, that it will avoid a harsher, externally given punishment. Like, I know I did wrong. I've punished myself, so you don't have to do anything. I've taken care of it. It's almost like, you know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know? And so talk about consequences. You know, to my parents' credit, they really did imbue in all of us a really powerful moral code. And so we've had that since we were kids, too. And those "}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 47, "text": "...Preemptive punishment. But it could be, like, so damaging.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 48, "text": "Right. Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the other way - just as you were describing that - it's where self-deprecating humor comes from. And you know..."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 49, "text": "I know. I know.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...That's my milieu is self-deprecating humor. But I'll make fun of myself before Terry Gross can because you're known to rip people apart on your show."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 50, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So cruel."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 51, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And every single - and it gets more and more absurd until a horse goes (imitating horse neighing) better be as good as Letterman."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 52, "text": "All right. I'm going to take a short break here, and then we'll be right back. If you're just joining us, my guest is Conan O'Brien. And in addition to his 11 o'clock late-night show on TBS, he has a podcast, and it's called \"Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend.\" It's very funny. We're going to take a short break. Then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- but it can - you know what I'm talking about. Anyway - but it's very much - it's all about control. And at the end of the day, so many of the problems in our life are us trying to assert control whe"}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 53, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Conan O'Brien, and, of course, he hosts his \"Conan\" late-night show on TBS at 11 o'clock. He also has a podcast that's called \"Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend.\" And he interviews a lot of fellow comics and comedy writers and occasional first lady. And sometimes he's just just, like, really funny and sometimes it just gets to, you know, pretty deep stuff. And he has, like, scripted podcasts from Team Coco and new things going on, too. So we were talking about self-punishment. What were you actually punished for when you were young?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- but it can - you know what I'm talking about. Anyway - but it's very much - it's all about control. And at the end of the day, so many of the problems in our life are us trying to assert control whe"}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 54, "text": "Oh, you really did that? You really had it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The thing I remember most clearly is I think I'm the last person who's - at least of my generation, but maybe - I don't think there's anyone after me who ever had their mouth washed out with soap."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 55, "text": "Boy, you know that was always...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When did that happen? And it was a total anomaly, but, no, I think we would get in trouble if we, you know, mouthed off or were disrespectful to my mom. You'd get sent to your room - nothing - you kno"}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 56, "text": "There was always an expression, like, you have a filthy mouth. I'm going to wash your mouth out with soap, and I've never knew anyone until now who actually had their mouth washed with soap. I would think it's really bad for your mouth tissues, which are sensitive, to have Dial soap all over them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...No, there was nothing..."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 57, "text": "Yes, I would have warned her about the medical repercussions of this form of punishment.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, I wish you'd been there at the time."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 58, "text": "This is not a good thing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wish you could have materialized and told this hill folk from Prince Edward Island..."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 59, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wish you had said, you know, excuse me, pardon me, I worry about his mouth tissues."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 60, "text": "Did it prevent you from ever mouthing off again to anyone?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think this is the proper use of - maybe a liquid soap. Is there a liquid Dial soap in the house? I think that would be softer, and he could expectorate it more easily. Who are you? I'm Terry G"}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 61, "text": "Obviously not.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, of course not."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 62, "text": "There we go. We made the jump", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it doesn't - it's complete proof that capital punishment doesn't work. No."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 63, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it doesn't - it's complete proof that capital punishment doesn't work. No."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 64, "text": "Your TBS show starts with this montage of you - of, like, Conan through the years, starting with you when you're a very young child and then being, like, an older...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We made the jump. It doesn't work."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 65, "text": "...Child and a teenager and an adult and then having your own shows. So I wanted to spend a little more time in the young Conan years. You love music, and you play guitar. You sing. You don't try to pass yourself off as a professional musician, but you clearly love music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 66, "text": "In the studio where you are, there was a guitar sitting there. And during the soundcheck, I heard you just playing around with it. Would you be willing to just play and sing something that you were so proud you learned when you were young when you first picked up a guitar?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, God, no."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 67, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I first picked up - oh, well, OK. This is - when a comedian picks up a guitar, unless he's Steve Martin, it's time to go. It's time to get out, so you've been warned. Yeah, there's a, I think, ki"}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 68, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We can make him do this. But hold on."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 69, "text": "Yeah, so I loved it. That was great. You really put yourself into that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The only reason I play guitar is because when I was in college, I really got into the music of the early, early \"Sun Sessions\" of Elvis Presley. So, you know, I'd always known Elvis as the guy in the "}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 70, "text": "That was great. I'm trying to picture you as, like, a 10-year-old or 13-year-old trying to be Elvis...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Why are you crying?"}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 71, "text": "...In your bedroom.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was a little older than that."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 72, "text": "Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I was about 18."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 73, "text": "Right, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's where the hair came from and..."}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 74, "text": "Conan O'Brien, it's been great to have you back on the show. Thank you so much, and good luck with all the new projects you have now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's why I wanted - I really wanted - I wanted black hair. And, you know, keep in mind, this is, you know - it's all the wrong time. I'm supposed to be listening to The Clash or something. I'm suppo"}
{"id": "787045208", "date": "2019-12-11", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "'Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend' Is A Joke Name For A Podcast \u2014 Sort Of", "question_index": 75, "text": "Oh, thank you so much for saying that. My interview with Conan O'Brien was recorded in October. His TBS show airs weeknights at 11. His podcast is called \"Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. And you are one of my all-time favorite people to talk to. And you're really brilliant at this. And it's a joy, so thank you so much for having me on. This is free therapy. I appreciate it."}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 0, "text": "Wanda Sykes, welcome to FRESH AIR, and congratulations on your Emmy nominations.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wanda Sykes co-starred this year in an ABC special, which will be repeated next Wednesday, performing a live episode of \"The Jeffersons\" opposite Jamie Foxx, and she has a recurring role on \"Black-ish"}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 1, "text": "You've been a comic during the Clinton administration and his impeachment. You were a comic during two terms of America's first African American president. And now you're a comic during the presidency of Donald Trump, who some people describe as racially divisive and others describe as just plain racist. Is being a comic now different than being a comic during the Clinton years or the Obama years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 2, "text": "You were booed by an audience in Boston telling jokes...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it's totally different. It's much harder, actually. And you would think, oh, boy, there's so much to make fun of. But really, I can't write anything funnier or more ridiculous than what Trump actu"}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thanks, Terry. Yeah, thanks."}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 4, "text": "Telling jokes about Trump.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Jesus."}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 5, "text": ". And you had called him racist, sexist and homophobic. Were you surprised to get booed? I mean, these were people who were coming - who were paying money to come hear you. I would imagine most people who come hear you aren't surprised to hear what you think of President Trump.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, congratulations on your Emmys. Oh, remember when you were booed, Wanda?"}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 6, "text": "Are you serious?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know what? That was my fault. That was my fault because it wasn't my show, you know? And when I say fault, I don't mean that - you know, that I take responsibility for being booed. I take re"}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 7, "text": "So what did you do onstage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm serious. It's Boston. Come on. Yeah. I mean, really. It was nuts. It was nuts. It was - people were doing the, you know, heil Hitler move. They were - I heard N-words. I heard, you know - then you"}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I said, I have to try to somehow diffuse this. So I pulled out my cancer card."}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 9, "text": "Is that a cancer foundation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And - well, yeah. So it's a type - it's a form of - yeah. It's to fight a form of cancer, yeah. Yeah. And I was like, OK, hey, guess what? We're here for a good cause. You know, I had cancer. And then"}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 11, "text": "Very much a mixed message", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that was on - I believe that was on the front page of The Boston - the Globe or something the next morning. It was pretty funny - one of my finest moments."}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that was on - I believe that was on the front page of The Boston - the Globe or something the next morning. It was pretty funny - one of my finest moments."}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 13, "text": "So the moral of the story...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then my wife and I had to talk about it. I was like, wait a minute. You - I thought we were both doing the finger."}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 15, "text": "That's really funny. Is life for you personally different under President Trump than it was under President Obama?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She's like, no, baby. I was doing the peace sign - love, peace. I was like, oh. I was like, no, I was feeling the finger. I couldn't get that index up - couldn't get that index finger up."}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 16, "text": "Are you concerned because you're black, because you're a lesbian, because you're a famous comic? Like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, absolutely. I have to - you know, you have to think about things now, you know, when you - even, like, something simple as going into a restaurant. You know, you go in, and you see it's kind of c"}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 17, "text": "All the boxes, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You can check all those boxes."}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 18, "text": "OK. So on the scale of annoyed to afraid, where are you now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 19, "text": "And annoyance in part because you feel like you have to read people more carefully than you did before because it's such a divisive time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wow. OK, I'm more on the end of annoyed because it's - because I don't live in fear. It's just - like you said, it's just another annoyance. It's just, you know, something that you just got to deal wi"}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 20, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And what's so funny - people who are not Trump supporters, especially white people - I can feel like they want you to know that - where they stand, which is hilarious because it's like they're "}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I noticed, like, white people are quick to tell me, oh, that Trump, huh? Oh, God, what a piece of work."}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 22, "text": "So I want to play something from an earlier special. This is from a 2009 comedy special on HBO that was called \"I'ma Be Me,\" and this is something you recorded about how you felt after Obama was elected.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I'm, like, we weren't even talking about politics. Like, I just met you. You know, it's just so funny where they just feel like, OK, let me just get this out right away."}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 23, "text": "That's Wanda Sykes from her 2009 special. So did your mother tell you that - that white people are looking at you, so you've got to be dignified?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was right."}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 24, "text": "How different is it to be onstage when your job is truth-telling and everybody is looking at you? And comics aren't famous for being dignified, per se. They're famous for being, like, comic truth-tellers, sometimes harsh comic truth-tellers. So it's, like, kind of the opposite in a way. Do you know what I mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely. Yeah. My parents - I don't know, you know, another black person my age who didn't hear that. Yeah."}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 25, "text": "So you were the first African American woman to host the White House Correspondents' Dinner, which used to have a comic...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, maybe that's why I love doing standup. Maybe that's it. Maybe that's where I can - I feel I can be free. But then again, there is my mom's voice in the back of my head when I'm onstage"}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 26, "text": "...Until a couple of years ago. And you were the first comic to be there at the White House Correspondents' Dinner during the first year of the first African American president. And in one of your comedy specials, you talk about an hour before you went onstage to perform with President Obama and Michelle Obama in the audience, your publicist or manager came to you with a note saying, please do not use the F word or the N word during your talk. Who did - did the note come from the White House?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, yeah."}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 27, "text": "Oh, the correspondents. Oh, kind of - yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a good question. I didn't - I don't know if it came from the White House or if it came from the..."}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 28, "text": "So did you have to change your...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think it came from the correspondents. I don't - I'm pretty sure the White House would know better, I would think."}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 29, "text": "So you actually got some grief for that dinner because you were making jokes about Rush Limbaugh, who was, at the time, one of the most famous ultra-conservative media personalities. And he had said he wanted Obama to fail, and you said that's like saying he wants America to fail and you hope Rush Limbaugh's kidneys fail. So what was your response to that? What kind of response did you get?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely not. I mean, I had no intentions on going in that room and using the F word and absolutely not the N word. Come on. That's nonsense."}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 30, "text": "So there is no longer a comic performing at the White House Correspondents' Dinner because of a couple of years ago when Michelle Wolf was the comic and she made a joke about Sarah Sanders and - about how Sarah Sanders burns lies and used them for eye makeup to create her smoky eyes. They decided this is just, like, too much. Comics have gone too far. We're ending the whole thing of having a comic. We're going to have a historian instead. What was your reaction to that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm ahead of my time, really. I mean, I called it all. I called it - no regrets. Now, was it a very Christian think of me to wish that a man's kidneys fail? No, but it was just a funny joke. But that'"}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 31, "text": "So I want to play another clip. And this is from your 2009 HBO special \"I'ma Be Me,\" which sounds kind of funny coming from my mouth, doesn't it?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's conversation from earlier this year with writer, actress and stand-up comic Wanda Sykes. Her latest TV comedy special, titled \"Not Normal,\" is now streamin"}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 32, "text": "Oh, thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But you nailed it."}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 33, "text": "So this is a clip about how it's getting harder to be black and a lesbian, and this is from 2009.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm telling you, I was very impressed. I was like, oh, go ahead, Terry. She nailed that - \"I'ma Be Me.\""}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 34, "text": "That's hilarious. How did you think about that? I mean, how did you come up with that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Anything but black, Lord."}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 35, "text": "And Prop 8 says that the only marriage the state would recognize is a marriage between a man and a woman.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess it was the realization - I had to have this conversation with my parents about being a lesbian. And I was like, wow, OK, this is kind of ridiculous. And it was very difficult. And, you know, t"}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 36, "text": "You actually came out during an anti-Prop 8 rally, right? You came out publicly.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli in for Terry Gross back with more of Terry's interview from earlier this year with comic, actor and writer Wanda Sykes. Her Netflix comedy special, titled \"Not N"}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 37, "text": "How did you choose that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 38, "text": "...As the opportunity to do it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that was in Vegas."}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 39, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I didn't even know that I was going to do it. It wasn't planned at all. I was in Vegas performing at, I think, Planet Hollywood, and I had a show that night. And there was the national day of pr"}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 40, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Is Pink here? What's going on, you know?"}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 41, "text": ". What...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm looking around for the ally, and then she said, Wanda Sykes. I'm like, oh, no. I'm part of the family. I'm not the ally. OK. So I go up, and it just was - just happened. And I, you know, made the "}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 42, "text": "What did you say that was the official coming out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess I did."}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 43, "text": "So once the crawl hit CNN, what happened next in your life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I said I'm proud to be black, a woman and gay."}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 44, "text": "Did they...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A lot of text messages. My publicist called and said congratulations and that she was proud of me. And she said that was the perfect way to do it. What else? Yeah, a lot of - just a lot of very suppor"}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 45, "text": "Is that how they found out, or did you already tell them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They didn't..."}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 46, "text": "Well, what - how do you handle that? Because your life is yours, and there's a fight to be fought. And you wanted to be part of it, but I'm sure you also wanted to respect your mother. So what do you honor? Do you honor, like, the LGBTQ movement? Do you honor your own sexuality? Do you honor your wife? Or do you suppress all that for a while while your mother's still alive and honor your mother?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No, I had already had the conversation with them. But I remember my mother specifically asking me not to do that - not to be public - while she was, you know, still alive."}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 47, "text": "I'm really glad to hear that things are good between you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it was hard. And, you know, deep down, I look at it as I am honoring my mother because I'm a product of my parents, and my parents instilled these values and this strength in me. And so for me"}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 48, "text": "Do you think your mother was more surprised than she might have been because you - in the '90s, you were married to a man for several years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 49, "text": "Did religion figure into her response when she didn't want you to come out publicly and when she was really upset that you were gay?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The old bait-and-switch - I could see that."}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 50, "text": "Did you go to church a lot when you were young?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Religion is, you know, grounded in everything that they do, so absolutely. Yeah."}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 51, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes. When I was young - in, you know, teenage years, there was one point when they - we had just moved, and I found a church before they did. And so I - you know, so I got them to go back to chur"}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 52, "text": "So your wife is French. She's white. You have two children who are white, and you joke about how you're living in a house with white people and you're a minority in your own home. So that's very funny, but I'm sure there's some truth to that, too. Is it unusual for you to be in your own home and be, like, the racial minority in your own family?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She makes some great points. She makes some great points, although she did say she was going to write a check, so I don't know. That check sound pretty good, the reparations check. I don't know."}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 53, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is. It feels weird when I think about it, but now, when it's just the - you know, just the four of us, then, you know, I don't think I think of it then. But it's like, when, like, her family is the"}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 54, "text": "Had you considered motherhood when you were in a heterosexual marriage? And when you imagined the possibility of motherhood, if you imagined it, did you imagine it differently in a straight marriage than you did when you were, and as you are now, in a lesbian marriage? Because now you're the mother of two children.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm like, yeah. Yup."}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 55, "text": "What do you love about being a mother?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Before, no, I didn't want kids. I had no vision of having kids at all. I remember when I was little, I pictured myself with kids, but there was never a man around. It was - I don't know if maybe he di"}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 56, "text": ". So your wife gave birth to twins, and you joke in your latest comedy special about how people are always asking you - because your two children are white - how come you didn't choose an African American donor so that the children would be biracial and would reflect both of you instead of the donor being white? So you joke about that in the special, but you must have had pretty serious conversations about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess it takes you out of yourself, you know, just to be able to just love something so much and just want to be there and take care of them and not worry about yourself. It's just good to know that"}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 57, "text": "So let's talk about how you became a comic. You started working at the National Security Agency. I think you had, like, top security clearance, and you were working as a procurement agent. Do I have that right?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's conversation from earlier this year with actress and stand-up comic Wanda Sykes. Her latest TV comedy special, titled \"Not Normal,\" is now streaming on Net"}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 58, "text": "So what does that mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes - top security clearance, and I was a contracting specialist or procurement officer. Yeah."}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 59, "text": "What was the security clearance process like for you? I'm thinking a lot of comics, when they were young, would not have wanted to put themselves through that and probably would not have gotten a security clearance.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I bought stuff, basically - anything from, you know, I guess surveillance equipment or something to office furniture. Whatever - you know, I serviced the agency. So whatever someone needed, they would"}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 60, "text": "He worked for the NSA, too, didn't he?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, you know, I come from a military family. My dad, you know, he's a retired colonel in the Army."}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 61, "text": "Oh, OK. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he - more at the Pentagon. My dad was at the Pentagon."}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 62, "text": "So how did you think of going into comedy and leaving your job at the NSA? I mean, they're very different professions, needless to say.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So, I mean, I was never a bad kid. So my - yeah, I had a clear path. It wasn't a problem getting - you know, getting a clearance. The only thing I think - I smoked weed in college, you know? And"}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 63, "text": "So the first time you were in a comedy club performing, what was your material like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I always loved comedy. We watched a lot of comedy at home growing up. You know, we had all those great variety shows. You know, Moms Mabley was - you know, still is - like, my hero. I remember s"}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 64, "text": "Oh, yeah - that you'd put on the windshield.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, God. It was basically doing an impression of what a stand-up comic does, you know? Like, it was just generic jokes. I think I did a joke about the auto shade. Remember those big sunglass cardboard"}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 65, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You put in your window?"}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 66, "text": "Because it covered the whole windshield. Like, you wouldn't be able to see anything.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, you put in your windshield. I was reading it, and it had instructions on the side of it. And I'm like, who really needs instructions for this because, you know, it says to make sure you remove i"}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 67, "text": "OK. So some of your material now is really very personal. And some of the things that, like, women are reluctant to talk about, you talk about on stage - for example, going through menopause, having a belly in part because you're going through menopause. You've even named your belly Esther Rolle after the actress.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 68, "text": "How did you decide to do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 69, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I don't know. It was like - when it popped up, I was like oh, my God. Look at this fat roll I have right here. Where - you know, where'd that come from? And I don't know. Then I just started"}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 70, "text": "Well, Wanda Sykes, thank you so much for talking with us. It's really been great. I really appreciate it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I was like, OK. All right, you're right. And I would just - I just would have conversations with my gut, and my friends would crack up. I think the first time I did I was with my friend Kim Whitle"}
{"id": "787758233", "date": "2019-12-13", "guest": "Wanda Sykes", "title": "Wanda Sykes Loves Stand-Up: That's Where 'I Can Be Free,' She Says", "question_index": 71, "text": "Wanda Sykes spoke with Terry Gross earlier this year. The latest stand-up comedy special from Sykes, titled \"Not Normal,\" is now streaming on Netflix, and the ABC comedy special in which she and Jamie Foxx co-starred in a live TV reenactment of the classic sitcom \"The Jeffersons\" will be repeated next Wednesday. \"Not Normal.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you. I appreciate it, Terry. Thank you."}
{"id": "788878145", "date": "2019-12-17", "guest": "Giancarlo Esposito", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Do The Right Thing' And 'Ruby' Actor Danny Aiello", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're going to listen back to my interview with actor Danny Aiello. He died last Thursday at the age of 86. His breakthrough performances were in \"The Purple Rose Of Cairo\" as Mia Farrow's husband, \"Moonstruck\" as Cher's fiance and Spike Lee's 1989 film \"Do The Right Thing,\" in which he played the longtime owner of a pizzeria in an African American neighborhood in the Bedford-Stuyvesant section of Brooklyn. His character Sal had a wall of fame in the pizza place featuring photos of famous Italian Americans. One of his customers, played by Giancarlo Esposito, confronted him about why the wall only had Italian Americans.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "788878145", "date": "2019-12-17", "guest": "Giancarlo Esposito", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Do The Right Thing' And 'Ruby' Actor Danny Aiello", "question_index": 1, "text": "The racial tensions between Aiello and his customers grew as the movie progressed. Aiello was nominated for an Oscar for that performance. I spoke with Danny Aiello in 1992 after he starred in the film \"Ruby\" as Jack Ruby, the man who shocked America by shooting and killing President Kennedy's assassin, Lee Harvey Oswald. Danny Aiello told me that, like many Americans, he saw Ruby's murder of Oswald live on network TV.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Sal) You know, you're a ball-breaker. You're always coming in here looking for trouble, aren't you? Suppose I busted your head, how would you - Mookie. Mookie, you want to get your friend out of h"}
{"id": "788878145", "date": "2019-12-17", "guest": "Giancarlo Esposito", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Do The Right Thing' And 'Ruby' Actor Danny Aiello", "question_index": 2, "text": "You portray Ruby as a small-time guy who's gotten in over his head...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I went, yip, yip, hooray. I believed at that time, Terry, in street justice - an eye for an eye. He killed our president, and this guy killed him - good. That's how I felt. And this, of course, was th"}
{"id": "788878145", "date": "2019-12-17", "guest": "Giancarlo Esposito", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Do The Right Thing' And 'Ruby' Actor Danny Aiello", "question_index": 3, "text": "...And who often has to bluff his way out of tight situations. And you do wonderful line readings in the movie. I mean, I think you just convey a lot with your voice and with where you put the accents in certain readings of lines. I wonder how you rehearse these things even at home. And I don't even necessarily mean on a set. But when you got this script and you were trying to figure out how you would do the character, how you would do specific lines, what's your process like for testing out your line reading?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "788878145", "date": "2019-12-17", "guest": "Giancarlo Esposito", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Do The Right Thing' And 'Ruby' Actor Danny Aiello", "question_index": 4, "text": "You started acting when you were in your mid-30s.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wish I had a process. I do it until I learn it. I don't memorize it to the extent where it's like rote. I never - It's always got to be fresh and new to me. I like to go before the cameras knowing t"}
{"id": "788878145", "date": "2019-12-17", "guest": "Giancarlo Esposito", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Do The Right Thing' And 'Ruby' Actor Danny Aiello", "question_index": 5, "text": "Did you have any idea before that that you were even interested in acting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "788878145", "date": "2019-12-17", "guest": "Giancarlo Esposito", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Do The Right Thing' And 'Ruby' Actor Danny Aiello", "question_index": 6, "text": "I'm interested in your early life. Your father was a Teamster and was on the road a lot.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I gravitated toward acting, Terry, because I thought it might be - it's a communication media, and I was a fairly good talker, and I was fairly good with people, that maybe this would be the way t"}
{"id": "788878145", "date": "2019-12-17", "guest": "Giancarlo Esposito", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Do The Right Thing' And 'Ruby' Actor Danny Aiello", "question_index": 7, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, my father was not home. We had what could be perceived as a fatherless home."}
{"id": "788878145", "date": "2019-12-17", "guest": "Giancarlo Esposito", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Do The Right Thing' And 'Ruby' Actor Danny Aiello", "question_index": 8, "text": "I know you went to work when you were very young, but I think you also got involved in robberies when you were pretty young, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A man that would come home once a year and impregnate my mother by mistake, while we all are macaroni and beans. And - but Mama managed to find a steak for him somehow, and he ate it. He ate it very p"}
{"id": "788878145", "date": "2019-12-17", "guest": "Giancarlo Esposito", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Do The Right Thing' And 'Ruby' Actor Danny Aiello", "question_index": 9, "text": "Did you make sure the statute of limitations was up before mentioning it publicly?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I did some crazy things. I had a fear, Terry, of being homeless. And I was - early on, I don't know when that was put on my mind. I guess maybe if Mama decided to run off like Dad, then the seve"}
{"id": "788878145", "date": "2019-12-17", "guest": "Giancarlo Esposito", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Do The Right Thing' And 'Ruby' Actor Danny Aiello", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I did some crazy things. I had a fear, Terry, of being homeless. And I was - early on, I don't know when that was put on my mind. I guess maybe if Mama decided to run off like Dad, then the seve"}
{"id": "788878145", "date": "2019-12-17", "guest": "Giancarlo Esposito", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Do The Right Thing' And 'Ruby' Actor Danny Aiello", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, as a matter of fact, I did. What a wise son of a gun I am. But I did. And, you know, I don't want you to think that it was - like this was an ongoing thing forever; it was a thing that happened "}
{"id": "788878145", "date": "2019-12-17", "guest": "Giancarlo Esposito", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Do The Right Thing' And 'Ruby' Actor Danny Aiello", "question_index": 12, "text": "You know, one of your really big breakthrough roles was as Sal in \"Do The Right Thing.\" And I really loved you in that film, and I always felt watching that movie that Spike Lee probably saw the character as a blatant racist, but that you gave the character a depth and integrity. And I know you actually even wrote lines for the character to flesh the character out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's crazy. And I'm ashamed to tell you this, Terry. Now, I don't want you to think any less of me for it, but I'll tell you - people do that, and we can be critical and should be critical because no "}
{"id": "788878145", "date": "2019-12-17", "guest": "Giancarlo Esposito", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Do The Right Thing' And 'Ruby' Actor Danny Aiello", "question_index": 13, "text": "Danny Aiello, recorded in 1992. He died last Thursday at age 86. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll talk about our longest war, the 18-year Afghanistan War - the mistakes, flawed strategy, expense, loss of life and how U.S. administration officials and military commanders early on questioned what we were doing there but misled the public. We talk with journalist Craig Whitlock of The Washington Post, who got internal documents about the war through Freedom of Information Act lawsuits. I hope you can join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. If you pick up his original script, the original, you'll see that he was a one-note character. To me, he was what I would have called, in the old days, a token black in an all-white film. In thi"}
{"id": "788878145", "date": "2019-12-17", "guest": "Giancarlo Esposito", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Do The Right Thing' And 'Ruby' Actor Danny Aiello", "question_index": 14, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Mooj Zadie, Seth Kelley and Joel Wolfram. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. If you pick up his original script, the original, you'll see that he was a one-note character. To me, he was what I would have called, in the old days, a token black in an all-white film. In thi"}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest Adam Sandler is famous for his comedy films and his work on \"Saturday Night Live\" in the '90s. But he's also given some terrific performances and dramas. He stars in the new manic thriller, \"Uncut Gems,\" which was written and directed by the Safdie brothers - Josh and Benny Safdie - who are also with us. Sandler plays Howard Ratner, a jeweler in Manhattan's Diamond District who always has a deal or a con going on and never stops talking. And he's a gambler. He's made a lot of money and lost a lot of money and is deep in debt to a loan shark whose men are after him. He's trying to talk and gamble his way out of the predicament he's in. The Safdies' father worked in the Diamond District when they were kids, and they heard a lot of stories. \"Uncut Gems\" won the Best Director Award from the New York Film Critics Circle. The National Board of Review gave Sandler the Best Actor Award and the Safdie brothers the Best Screenplay Award. The film has five nominations from the Independent Spirit Awards, including Best Feature, Director, Screenplay and Male Lead. Here's a scene from \"Uncut Gems,\" with Howard - Sandler's character - placing bets with his bookie on the Boston Celtics and player Kevin Garnett.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Adam Sandler and Josh and Benny Safdie, welcome to FRESH AIR. Congratulations on the film and the awards and nominations.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Howard Ratner) I disagree."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 2, "text": "So I'm going to ask one of the Safdie brothers first - and you can decide which one takes this - to describe the character Adam Sandler plays. I've already given a basic introduction, but give us your take on the character.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Why did you think of Adam Sandler for the role?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Let me bring Adam Sandler in. Adam Sandler...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And you have to love Howard."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Yeah, sorry about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, you shouldn't interrupt that kind of thing."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 6, "text": "So when they offered you the role, did you initially want it? Did you see yourself as this character, Howard?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 7, "text": "What were your fears about the effect this character would have on your family before your wife said this is a great opportunity and you should do the film?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 8, "text": "What did you do to physically take on the character? Like, you're wearing false teeth. You have clothes that you don't typically wear. Why did - and maybe this is a question for the Safdies, too - why did you need false teeth?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I do screw - it does screw my head up, until I got the go-ahead. And then I'm - then I'm good. I just - very connected with my wife. And we like to feel comfortable with each other and give each o"}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 9, "text": "How did it feel to not be recognized, Adam?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So there was a pragmatism in it as well."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guests are Adam Sandler, who stars in the new film \"Uncut Gems,\" and Josh and Benny Safdie, who wrote and directed the film. We'll be right back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But it felt neat. It felt neat. I like sitting back and watching and learning from everybody. I - these jewelers on 47th Street that the Safdie boys and Ronnie, who also wrote the movie - they were so"}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guests are Josh and Benny Safdie, who wrote and directed the new film \"Uncut Gems,\" and Adam Sandler, who stars as Howard Ratner, the owner of a jewelry store in Manhattan's Diamond District. He sells some very valuable gems but also has a supply of fake watches. He's a compulsive gambler, bets on basketball, is in deep debt. And each scheme he has to pay off the loan shark just keeps getting him deeper and deeper - things keep getting worse and worse, and you feel his time running out. Adam Sandler, you found the voice for this character. This character is a fast talker. He's always trying to convince people or sell people on something. He's just always taking chances. He always says things he can't really back up. And he doesn't stop talking.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But it felt neat. It felt neat. I like sitting back and watching and learning from everybody. I - these jewelers on 47th Street that the Safdie boys and Ronnie, who also wrote the movie - they were so"}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 12, "text": "You found the rhythm, and you found the music in that character's voice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 13, "text": "Can you describe finding the voice and what that voice is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, yeah."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 14, "text": "The movie is so much about speed. You know, the Howard character is really manic. The neighborhood in Manhattan is really chaotic and kind of manic. And Howard has to make a lot of money really quickly to pay off his debts. And the speed of the movie is manic. I mean, I'm almost imagining you there with stopwatches saying, OK, 90 seconds, the scene is over. Time for another scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Totally."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 15, "text": "I mean, there's so many different scene shots, and it's like - it's constantly changing to a new scene or new location, or there's an edit because everything is just constantly manic. And I want you to talk a little bit about creating that non-stop energy in the film.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wow."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, when we were writing the script, we did over 160 drafts over the course of 10 years. And when Scott Rudin got involved as a producer three years ago, he was looking at the script, and he saw"}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 17, "text": "The main character, Howard, is a big basketball fan. It's like - he not only bets on it, but he loves the sport. And there's a scene that's almost, like, funny - I don't know whether it's intentional or not - in which he's - it's a very high-pressure situation that he's in. I won't describe it because I don't want to give too much away. But he's basically watching the game on TV. He's got a lot of money on it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then just on set, the way we would kind of work is we would have this - everybody is allowed to talk. You know, the extras in the background are allowed to talk. Actors are allowed to step on one "}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 18, "text": "And he's kind of, like, narrating the game. It's like he's a sportscaster on TV. And he's like, I like doing the game.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 19, "text": "And Adam Sandler, it's - you're so manic when you're doing it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 20, "text": "And I'm wondering a couple of things - one is if you improvised any of that, but also if you did any of that as a kid - like, if you'd watch a game and get so caught up in it, like, you'd be the sportscaster.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, man, that's good. That's good. I mean, we had the games. These guys deliberately wouldn't show me the games, so I could react for real. And I was given the freedom to - it was great stuff written,"}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 22, "text": "My guests are Adam Sandler, who stars in the new film \"Uncut Gems,\" and Josh and Benny Safdie, who co-wrote and directed the film. After a break, the Safdie brothers will tell some stories from when their father worked in New York's Diamond District, where the film is set, and Adam Sandler will talk about his comedy songs and how he started writing them. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's like, nothing has happened yet. I'm still like, oh, my God. We're in trouble now."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Adam Sandler, who stars in the new film \"Uncut Gems,\" and Josh and Benny Safdie, who directed the film and co-wrote it with Ronald Bronstein. The Safdie brothers also wrote and directed the film \"Good Time.\" Unlike most of Sandler's movie roles, this is a dramatic role. He plays Howard Ratner, the owner of a jewelry store in Manhattan's Diamond District. He deals in precious gems, along with Rolexes that probably fell off the back of a truck. He's kind of addicted to gambling on basketball and is deep in debt to a loan shark who sent his men out to collect. The Safdie brothers have a personal connection to the story they've written. So Josh and Benny Safdie, your father, for a few years when you were very young, worked in the Diamond District. What did he do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's like, nothing has happened yet. I'm still like, oh, my God. We're in trouble now."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 24, "text": "So Adam Sandler was worried about playing Howard because he thought it would have a bad effect on his family. You wrote and directed this movie inspired by your father's work, in part by his personality, in part by people he knew. Are you not afraid about the impact", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it was at this expensive garage, and it was a $3,000 bill to get the car out of the garage."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 25, "text": "that this movie is going to have on your father?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it was at this expensive garage, and it was a $3,000 bill to get the car out of the garage."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 26, "text": "What did your father do after he left the Diamond District?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he..."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 27, "text": "Got it. All right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Then he worked - he's had real estate. Fish - he sold fish for a long time. I mean, he's had a lot of jobs."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 28, "text": "So Adam Sandler, my impression is your family wasn't as, quote, \"colorful?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it was like, when we got to our moms, she's like, why are you guys so angry at me right now? And then she - we told her why. And he's stretching and he's bending reality to his own wishes, you know"}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 29, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it was like, when we got to our moms, she's like, why are you guys so angry at me right now? And then she - we told her why. And he's stretching and he's bending reality to his own wishes, you know"}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 30, "text": "What's your family's thing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My dad was big. And we all love - my family's definitely got its own thing. It's not not the same as the boys, but I do..."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 31, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guests are Adam Sandler, who stars in the new film \"Uncut Gems,\" and Josh and Benny Safdie, who wrote and directed the film. They're brothers. We'll talk more after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Two-fifty. Kind of - you didn't want to cross him kind of guy. He was cool."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 32, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guests are Josh and Benny Safdie, who wrote and directed the new film \"Uncut Gems,\" and Adam Sandler, who stars as Howard Ratner, the owner of a jewelry store in Manhattan's Diamond District. He sells some very valuable gems but also has a supply of fake watches. He's a compulsive gambler, bets on basketball, is deep in debt and keeps getting in deeper with each new scheme he comes up with. So the character of Howard is Jewish, and a lot of the people who - in the Diamond District in New York are Jewish. And there's a scene at Howard's family Seder, and his extended family is there. And I think it's perfect that the part of the Seder that you show is the recitation of the plagues - the lice, the pestilence, the hail, blood, frogs, boils, slaying of the first born. This is God's punishment of the Egyptians who are enslaving the Jews and refusing to acknowledge God. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Two-fifty. Kind of - you didn't want to cross him kind of guy. He was cool."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 33, "text": "Since everything is going wrong for the character, the plague seems to be, like, the perfect part of the Seder...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Dying, yeah."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 34, "text": "...To emphasize. But I'd like you to all share with us what Seders were like in your family when you were growing up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. Exactly."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Oh, yeah. Because your parents divorced, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, we - it depended on which side of the family we were with."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 36, "text": "That's the matzo that you hide...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this - and the Sephardic side versus the Ashkenazi side. You know, the - there's - I think I found the afikoman every year."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 37, "text": "...For the kids to find, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 38, "text": "Wait - can I just interrupt and explain for people who don't understand? So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I remember - I know that - I remember in one particular Seder the - you know, the..."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 39, "text": "So the - at the Seder, you hide the matzo.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, sorry."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 40, "text": "And the kids are supposed to go searching for it, and the kid who finds it is rewarded with a bit of money.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 41, "text": "A gift or something, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Or a gift or something."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 42, "text": "It's often a bit of money", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Yeah."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 43, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Yeah."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 44, "text": "Yeah. Anyways, I interrupted you. Go ahead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 45, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A crisp buck or two."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 46, "text": "This is when everybody passes out from having eaten too much?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But the recline after the meal is also a very important part of the holiday - the holiday."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 47, "text": "There's a scene kind of like that in the movie", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's great."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 48, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's great."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 49, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He actually was so excited because he hadn't - he didn't tell her until she saw the movie. And it was a total surprise when she was watching."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 50, "text": "I want to say, in the movie, this is not a dress anybody would still want to fit into.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And his mom is really proud. She's still proud she can still fit into that bat mitzvah dress."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 51, "text": "So Adam Sandler, you've done a lot of comedy about being Jewish. What did being Jewish mean in your family when you were growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Good one."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 52, "text": "When you were young, you moved to New Hampshire...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was definitely a big part of us. And, you know, we went to temple, you know, not every Friday. It happened once or twice a month. My mother was very heavily involved in the temple and helping out a"}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 53, "text": "...And went to a school where there were very few Jews. I think there were, like, two Jews in your class or something.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 54, "text": "So did that make you more conscious of being Jewish? And were you seen...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Sure."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 55, "text": "...As being different as a result of it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Probably."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 56, "text": "\"The Hanukkah Song\" - I love \"The Hanukkah Song.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 57, "text": "And we're going to play it now, if that's OK with you, because...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 58, "text": "...This is so wonderful. I love this song. We'll play the first version of it that you did...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Amazing."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 59, "text": "...On \"Saturday Night Live.\" And hey, it's the season, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Got you."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 60, "text": "And here's how it came out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 61, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wow."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 62, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was - I knew Arthur Fonzarelli would get an applause break, man."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 63, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guests are Adam Sandler, who stars in the new film \"Uncut Gems,\" and Josh and Benny Safdie, who wrote and directed the film. They're brothers. We'll talk more after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was great to hear as a kid, too, because, you know, you're reminded that there's only 14 million Jews in the world. But then you're - there's this pop - piece of pop culture that's just - you're gi"}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 64, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guests are Josh and Benny Safdie, who wrote and directed the new film \"Uncut Gems,\" and Adam Sandler, who stars as Howard Ratner, the owner of a jewelry store in Manhattan's Diamond District. He sells some very valuable gems but also has a supply of fake watches. He's a compulsive gambler, bets on basketball, is in deep debt. And each scheme he has to pay off the loan shark just keeps getting him deeper and deeper. Things keep getting worse and worse, and you feel his time running out. Adam Sandler, how did you start doing music in your comedy? Did you want to be in a band when you were growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was great to hear as a kid, too, because, you know, you're reminded that there's only 14 million Jews in the world. But then you're - there's this pop - piece of pop culture that's just - you're gi"}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 65, "text": "Were you ever in a band?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes, yes."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 66, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I love that."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 67, "text": "Did you know it was about a house of prostitution when you sang it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We brought the house down, man. We did all right, me and old Lexi."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 68, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's - Terry, I still didn't know that. Thank you."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 69, "text": "So after sixth grade, were you in bands?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I love that your band was called Still Young."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 70, "text": "Were you the lead singer usually?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's good."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 71, "text": "No, that is so moving, that song that you did. Like, part of it's really funny. This was when you hosted \"Saturday Night Live\" in 2019, and it was your first time back since you were...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's cool."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 72, "text": "...Fired", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 73, "text": ", which you also sang about. But no, this song is so moving and funny. In fact, can we hear a little bit of it? Is that all right? We have it cued up ready to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 74, "text": "Yeah, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 75, "text": "So this is the tribute to the late Chris Farley, who died of a drug overdose - I guess it was about 2002 or something.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 76, "text": "It was a couple of years after he left the show, which is the same year you left the show. Anyway, so here's Adam Sandler hosting Saturday Night Live\" singing about Chris Farley in a very Springsteen-ish...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you're right."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 77, "text": "...Kind of mode.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes. For sure."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 78, "text": "It was great. How did you start combining music and comedy? Because you wanted to be a musician and realized, though, there were people much better than you, and you got into comedy and probably realized, like, oh, my God, there are brilliant comics.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) On Saturday night, my man would always deliver, whether he was the bumblebee girl or living in a van down by the river. Oh, that sounded cool, man. Thank you."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 79, "text": "But you carved out, like, this really unique place for yourself, both in the kind of comedy you ended up doing, but, you know, in combining music and comedy together.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 80, "text": "What was your self image when you were young?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Yeah, I think it was - I don't know the exact thing. My roommate, Tim Herlihy, who I write most of my comedies with, I think he might have brought it up. You know, I wrote a song parody or some"}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 81, "text": "All right. Well, congratulations on the awards and the nominations. Adam Sandler, Josh and Benny Safdie, thank you so much for coming to our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The more people I met - that's what happened. The more people I met, I was like, jeez, this guy knows everything. I know nothing. Why am I so confident?"}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 82, "text": "Adam Sandler stars in \"Uncut Gems.\" Josh and Benny Safdie co-wrote and directed the film. If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, like this week's interviews with Charlize Theron, who plays Megyn Kelly in the film \"Bombshell,\" or Julie Andrews and her daughter, who co-wrote Andrew's new memoir, or with Craig Whitlock, an investigative reporter for The Washington Post who secured internal government documents about the 18-year war in Afghanistan through Freedom of Information Act lawsuits, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having us, Terry."}
{"id": "789724351", "date": "2019-12-19", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Adam Sandler And The Safdie Brothers Discuss Manic Thriller 'Uncut Gems'", "question_index": 83, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Mooj Zadie, Seth Kelley and Joel Wolfram. Therese Madden directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having us, Terry."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. After pledging to never make an album of Christmas songs, my guest, roots and rockabilly musician JD McPherson, broke that promise. And I'm really glad he did. His new album \"Socks\" features his original holiday songs, and they're really fun. Last year, after it was released, McPherson and his band came to our studio last week with their instruments to play some of those new Christmas songs and talk about music and other things. We're going to listen back to that on this Christmas Eve. McPherson is a songwriter, singer and guitarist who is described by music critic Ann Powers as a supreme rock reinventor. McPherson grew up far away from the hubs of the music world on a cattle ranch in Oklahoma. His father runs the ranch. His mother is a preacher. Before becoming a full-time musician, McPherson taught art for four years to students in middle school. His Christmas album \"Socks\" is his fourth album. Welcome all of you to FRESH AIR. It's so exciting to have you here, and the new Christmas album is great. JD, I'm going to ask you to introduce the first song and to introduce the members of the band.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 1, "text": "Though Jason isn't here, I should say.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Certainly. So my name's JD McPherson, and over to my left is everybody else. That's Doug Corcoran, the utility guy who plays everything. Jimmy Sutton on bass. Ray Jacildo plays keys with background vo"}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 2, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's correct."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 3, "text": "We're not going to be hearing him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's too loud. He's..."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's too loud. He's in a straightjacket..."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 5, "text": "Too loud for our little studio.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...In the other room."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 6, "text": "OK. Do you want to introduce the first song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 7, "text": "Thank you so much for performing that. That is so great. And this is in our studio. We heard JD McPherson on vocals and guitar, Jimmy Sutton, bass and guitar and also singing backup vocals, Doug Corcoran and Ray Jacildo. And that is one of the songs that's also featured on JD's new album, which is called \"Socks.\" And it's an album of original Christmas songs. And it's really fun, just like the song we just heard. So there's another Christmas song I'd like you to do, and it's called \"Ugly Sweater Blues.\" And a lot of people intentionally wear ugly sweaters to Christmas parties - really hideous ones. So did you ever have any, like, ugly sweater traditions or real ugly sweaters that you were forced to wear?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. This is \"All The Gifts I Need.\" (Singing) Happiness is automatic. There's music in the air. Grab the boxes from the attic, and haul them down the stairs. Freezing weather's around the corner, an"}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was more of - so, you know, I'm a - I have three older brothers and an older sister. And they were all out of the house when I was born. I was a big surprise. And so it wasn't really sweaters"}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 9, "text": "I know the feeling. I knew the feeling. All right. Can you do that song for us? So this is JD McPherson and his band performing in our studio. We're going to hear JD on guitar and vocals, Jimmy Sutton on bass. Doug Corcoran is going to be playing steel guitar and Ray Jacildo - chimes. So here we go.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For - everybody has some point where they're being forced to wear clothes that they don't really want to. So ugly sweaters, I think, everybody - even if you haven't worn them, that's a thing that you "}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 10, "text": "That sounded great. That's such a great song", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Mama, don't make me wear that old thing again. Hand-knitted Christmas trees and a silly snowman - no matter if I refuse, I got these ugly sweater blues. Mama, why can't you see I feel like a"}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Mama, don't make me wear that old thing again. Hand-knitted Christmas trees and a silly snowman - no matter if I refuse, I got these ugly sweater blues. Mama, why can't you see I feel like a"}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 12, "text": "That song was written by JD McPherson, who we heard on guitar and vocals. And this is one of the songs that he wrote that's on the new Christmas album \"Socks\" that he recorded with his band. And thank you for playing this in the studio for us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is so much fun for me. So JD, I want to ask you a little bit about your past 'cause you grew up on a cattle farm...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is so much fun. Thank you for having us."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 14, "text": "...in Oklahoma. So, like, describe it for us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 15, "text": "Did you have to do things on the cattle ranch?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One-hundred-sixty acres or thereabouts, an A-frame house that my dad built up on a hill. Southeast Oklahoma is really pretty. I think it's the prettiest part of Oklahoma - mountainous, kind of Ozark-t"}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 16, "text": "What'd you have to do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 17, "text": "So you had to do that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you have to feed them first of all. And that was kind of - I think that's probably the - the best description is waking up at 5 in the morning before school and putting out a round bale, meal an"}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 18, "text": "And did you have to shovel anything?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 19, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, there's plenty of room. You don't have to worry about it too much."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 20, "text": "My knowledge of, like, cattle is kind of like cattle drive Westerns like the TV series \"Rawhide.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just walk - watch where you're walking."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 21, "text": "Nothing like that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 22, "text": "Really? Like, you call them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, you just kind of call them and they come up and..."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 23, "text": "And they come.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 24, "text": "What's the cattle call?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 25, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I can't do it here 'cause it's so loud, but it's kind of like (imitating cattle call)."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 26, "text": "So you said there's nothing to do except obsess on music. So what music were you obsessing on early on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 27, "text": "So you mentioned punk rock. Did you start in a punk rock band?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So that was the twain. We split up there."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 28, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So me and my friend Mitchell had three bands with the same - just the same two members basically. We would - my nephew, eventually we taught him how to play bass, so we had a trio and - but yeah"}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 29, "text": "But you had no...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was - I think that was in John Sparks' backyard. Cowboys don't really like X..."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 30, "text": "Right. You had no audience.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And Buzzcocks and stuff like that."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 31, "text": "Oh, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 32, "text": "Oh, gee, that must've been...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But we worked so hard on it."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 33, "text": "That must've been so discouraging. You love this music, and there's nobody to listen to it with...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We made flyers."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 34, "text": "...Or to play it for.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not really."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 35, "text": "Now, since we're talking about Christmas 'cause you have a new Christmas album, I think that your first Telecaster guitar was a Christmas gift.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it was just fun. It's just a good - it's a good thing to do. And, you know, your idling - your idle setting at 14, 15 years old is frustration, so you just do stuff because you're supposed to "}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 36, "text": "What time was it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it was actually a Stratocaster, which is weird because I immediately shifted into being a Telecaster guy after that. But that was the best thing that I could have ever received. I mean, it was l"}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 37, "text": "Age 15.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was, like, probably 15."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 38, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was 15. And I didn't expect to get it. And I had got all my presents, and I was, you know, really grateful for all - and then all of a sudden, my brother brings in this white - you know wha"}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 39, "text": "So when you were growing up on a cattle farm, was it hard to get into town or to go to a store? It sounds like you had to call stores and shopping malls in another state in order to find music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was so stoked to have a real electric guitar, so - but then I discovered Joe Strummer and Keith Richards and Chrissie Hynde all had Telecasters, so I wanted to do that instead."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 40, "text": "It sounds isolated.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, the nearest..."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 41, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was really isolated. The nearest supermarket was about a 45-minute drive. I mean, there was, like, little country stores here and there. But, you know, my folks would do their shopping in, like, Mc"}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 42, "text": "Did you vow, one day I'm going to be in New York?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 43, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My sights were much smaller."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 44, "text": "So when did you start getting interested in rockabilly?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We used to go to - we used to go shows in Tulsa, and there's a really important venue there called Cain's Ballroom. And I saw, you know, all of my first concerts there. It's such an important place. A"}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 45, "text": "Could we hear another Christmas song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, you know, some of those punk bands that I was into would do - would once in a while - like, OK, for instance, The Clash on \"London Calling,\" they did a song called \"Brand New Cadillac,\" which was "}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 46, "text": "OK, so let me suggest one. How about \"Bad Kid\" from your new Christmas album, \"Socks\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. What are we doing?"}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 47, "text": "Can you all play that for us? And the musicians here are in the studio with me, and it's JD McPherson and his band. And we're hearing Jimmy Sutton on bass. And Doug, what are you playing on this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 48, "text": "Baritone guitar", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Baritone guitar."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 49, "text": ", OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Baritone guitar."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 50, "text": "Jimmy, one of the things you do is play slap bass. And I want you to demonstrate how that sounds for us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Doug plays a lot of instruments. One, two, three, four. (Singing) Oh, well, Christmas time is a time to be good. But baby, I'm a bad, bad kid. A stocking full of kerosene matches and wood - I guess I'"}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 51, "text": "So it's turning the bass into a bass and a percussion instrument at the same time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Here, I'll give you two of my favorites. This is going to be a combination between - how about Willie Dixon and Bill Black? (Playing bass)."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 52, "text": "So when you're playing slap bass, where are you slapping? What do you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Basically, yeah. First time I heard slap bass was - I was real young, and it was on an episode of \"Rawhide.\" I can't remember who was playing it. For some reason in my head, I thought it was Roy"}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 53, "text": "Great. And, you know, some of the early rock 'n' rollers used their bass as part of the choreography. They put it under their legs or spin it around. Have you done that kind of stuff onstage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, well, I'm slapping over the fingerboard towards the bottom. And I'm playing gut strings right here, too, and they tend to sound a little better than all-steel strings. But I'm - here, this is a si"}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 54, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I used to do it all."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 55, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, we're doing music in our studio today. And my guests are JD McPherson, who is a songwriter, singer and guitarist, and members of his band. And their new album is an album of original Christmas songs written by JD. The album is called \"Socks.\" But we're also hearing them play some music that isn't Christmas music. And that is the case - not Christmas music - with the next song I'm going to ask you to do, which is called \"Jubilee.\" And performing in our studio on this song will be JD on guitar and vocals and Jimmy Sutton on bass. Doug Corcoran is going to be playing baritone guitar. And Ray Jacildo is going to be on chimes. And before we hear it, JD, introduce the song for us. Tell us about the inspiration for this song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I used to do it all. Yeah, I used to surf it, stand on it, lay on it. You know, it was just ridiculous. It was a lot of fun. But, you know, that was in my - maybe my 20s - teens. It started in my teen"}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 56, "text": "But in this song, Jubilee is a person. It's a woman.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Jubilee\" - we were making the last record, and I had this kind of chord progression started. And I worked on this one with Ray actually. And the lyrics were written I think almost overnight. I wrote "}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 57, "text": "OK, all right. Can you play it for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 58, "text": "So that was just an excerpt of the song \"Jubilee.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I hang around where the music is playing. I see the joyful look on every face. I try to listen to the words they're singing. But nothing ever fills this empty space. You're the only thing th"}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 59, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that was the abbreviated version..."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 60, "text": "So we talked a little bit about growing up on a cattle ranch. You taught school before you were a professional musician. You taught eighth grade. You were fired from eighth-grade teaching. So was I.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Because it's a very long song. For us, five minutes is very, very long."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 61, "text": "You lasted four years. I lasted six weeks, so...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Really?"}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 62, "text": "I have the edge over you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, wow."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 63, "text": "Everything wrong. I couldn't...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I want to know what you did."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 64, "text": "...Keep the kids in the classroom, let alone teach them anything.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did that, too."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 65, "text": "But why were you fired?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did that, too."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 66, "text": "In what sense?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, really, the - you know, the - there's actually a little bit of a legend perpetuated by a big rock magazine that I was fired for giving a 15-year-old boy a Bad Brains CD. That's true. I did give "}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 67, "text": "Is administrivia your word?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just - I'm not good at wallowing in the mire of administrivia. I'm not good at office politics. I'm not good at relating to other adults. In fact, I'm much - I'm actually much better with the kids. "}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 68, "text": "Oh, I haven't. I like it. I like it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I've heard that word before."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 69, "text": "You also - like, one of your - your first album, in fact, was called \"Signs & Semiotics\" (ph).", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 70, "text": "Signs...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Close..."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 71, "text": "Signs and signifiers are part of the definition of semiotics, which is using signs and signifiers and symbols to understand how meaning is derived from the text. And the semioticists", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...\"Signs & Signifiers.\""}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 72, "text": "who invented - came up with a very arcane language to deconstruct different art forms. Why did you study that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...\"Signs & Signifiers.\""}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 73, "text": "So why did you want to name an album \"Signs & Signifiers\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 74, "text": "Did you think it sounded vaguely biblical, like the signs and signifiers of hell? If you don't -", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I always liked the - I always liked language. And I loved that terminology that you'd see pop up once in a while. I always thought it sounded like kind of a '20s blues title, sound like somethin"}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 75, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I always liked the - I always liked language. And I loved that terminology that you'd see pop up once in a while. I always thought it sounded like kind of a '20s blues title, sound like somethin"}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 76, "text": "Oh, I was thinking a lot of the blues people, I mean, sang about hell...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, maybe a little of that, too. Both my parents are preachers, too, so maybe there's of little that in there, too."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 77, "text": "...And damnation. So your mother was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 78, "text": "...Was a preacher? What church?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mother, yeah."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 79, "text": "Why were they going to shut it down?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Word of Life Church in Bache, Okla. She's been a minister for - well, she's in her 80s now. She's been doing it a long time. It was a big deal because where we lived, that wasn't really - people d"}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 80, "text": "And they don't shut things down for aesthetic reasons. They shut it down for others.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But..."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 81, "text": "So was your family church the church where your mother preached?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "McAlester police, they don't have - you know, there's not a lot going on. So when kids with skateboards show up and distortion boxes and - singing songs by people from England, I don't know. They want"}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 82, "text": "So you grew up with your mother preaching.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 83, "text": "What did she preach? Like, what were - what are some memorable things from her sermons?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 84, "text": "Oh, so you played in your mother's church.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was a non-denominational service. It was really heavy on music. There was a lot of music. I started off drums there, and my brother played guitar."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 85, "text": "What music did you play?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 86, "text": "It sounds like it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it wasn't, like, hymns. It wasn't - they were kind of songs written by people, like non-published material. It was an interesting place. Like, there was a lot of different kind of - like, I "}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 87, "text": "Sing a few bars of one of the songs that you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 88, "text": "...Did in church.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, jeez."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 89, "text": "That's really nice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I remember my dad used to sing this song called \"Cover Me\" that I really like. And this is going to be - this is I mean, literally never - (singing, playing guitar) cover me. Cover me. Extend the bord"}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 90, "text": "So did Christmas songs actually have special meaning for you because your mother was a preacher?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 91, "text": "That's nice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "to the city for me. So when I did go and it was Christmas time, it really felt, I think, like, maybe what they're trying to make you feel as opposed to living in a city and it's just everywhere all th"}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 92, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 93, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I like that."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 94, "text": "So when you were fired after four years from teaching, was that like a relief for you? Did it open up the door to becoming a musician...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I like not being cynical about things."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 95, "text": "...A full-time musician?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I..."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 96, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "? You - every job I ever had, I tried to somehow inject music in there somewhere. I tried to figure out a way to make it about what I really wanted to do. And so when the fourth-graders were learning "}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 97, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Name the four Romanes, go; you get a piece of candy..."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 98, "text": "So I want to close with another - that is, I want you to close with another Christmas song. There's a song I love from the new album - your new album \"Socks\" that I'd like you to perform for us. And it's called \"What's That Sound?\". And I think everyone in the band is going to chime in on that one.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...If you get them in - you know what I mean? So it was always kind of - tiger can't change his stripes. And I'm a rock \u2019n\u2019 roll tiger, man."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 99, "text": "So this is JD McPherson and his band performing in our studio, and the song is \"What's That Sound?\". And it's also on their new Christmas album, which is called \"Socks.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, this one, I think, is probably getting down to the root of that anti-cynicism sentiment we were just speaking about. This is - this one's about all of those nice things that you can experi"}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 100, "text": "Oh, that was great. Thank you so much for performing for us in our studio. It's just been wonderful. I wish you all merry Christmas and great musical things, too. Thank you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) What's that sound at the door I hear? I heard that same merry sound last year. Neighbors are caroling around the town, trying to spread a little bit of joy around. I hear that sound. It make"}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 101, "text": "...For doing this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "789831354", "date": "2019-12-24", "guest": "Jd Mcpherson", "title": "A Roots And Rockabilly Holiday Concert With JD McPherson And His Band", "question_index": 102, "text": "Our thanks to JD McPherson and his band. Their performance was recorded in our studio last year after the release of their Christmas album, which is called \"Socks.\" The concert was produced by Amy Salit and recorded by Joyce Lieberman with help from Al Banks.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Our pleasure."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Merry Christmas.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 1, "text": "That's Rosemary Clooney. As a star of the 1954 film \"White Christmas,\" Clooney is one of the singer's most associated with Irving Berlin's famous Christmas song. Today, we go deep into our archive and celebrate the holiday with an onstage concert an interview that I recorded with Rosemary Clooney in 1997 at the Herbst Theatre in San Francisco in an event produced and presented by City Arts & Lectures under the direction of the late Sydney Goldstein. As the citation said in Clooney's 1995 ASCAP award, she is one of the best friends a song ever had. Clooney had big pop hits in the 1950s like \"Come On-A My House,\" \"Hey There\" and \"Mambo Italiano.\" But she also made a splendid series of jazz albums. I love her singing and feel so lucky to have recorded this with her. She died five years later. Accompanying her, we'll hear Charlie McCarthy, saxophone; Larry Souza, trumpet; Seward McCain, bass; Colin Bailey, drums; with pianist John Oddo, who was Clooney's music director. He died earlier this year. From our archive, here's Rosemary Clooney.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I'm dreaming of a white Christmas, just like the ones I used to know."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 2, "text": "That was wonderful.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Going to take a sentimental journey, going to set my heart at ease. Going to make a sentimental journey to renew old memories. I got my bag, I got my reservations, spent each dime I could af"}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 3, "text": "I would like to go back with you to your childhood, when you first started performing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 4, "text": "Now, I know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Really?"}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 5, "text": "You used to sing with your sister, Betty.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That far?"}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 6, "text": "And when you were girls, you sang together. And I know one of the places that you performed was - was it your grandfather who was the mayor of Maysville?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 7, "text": "And I know you performed at his campaigns.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes. Right."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 8, "text": "So set the scene for me. What was it like when you were girls performing for the campaign of your grandfather in Maysville, Ky. What did you sing? What were you like on stage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 9, "text": "Did you like performing or were you reluctantly trotted out to perform?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We just - we would stand on the street corners and sing songs that he liked particularly. (Singing) There was an old spinning wheel in the parlor, and there's an old covered bridge. Really old songs. "}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 10, "text": "When you were a girl...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't remember. I just remember always singing and always knowing that I would sing."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 11, "text": "Your parents divorced.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 12, "text": "And you and your sister lived alternately at your maternal and paternal grandparents' house.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 13, "text": "How did it change your world when your parents separated and left you and moved?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 14, "text": "So did you feel abandoned when they separated?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mother, on the other hand, was - she wanted to go somewhere else, somewhere besides Maysville, Ky. She worked in a ladies' dress store, and I know that she had a lot of kind of salesmanship and kin"}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well, I asked you to choose a song to sing this evening that would evoke your childhood in Kentucky.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There were so many people around us all the time, so many relatives that I never felt abandoned. Sometimes I would have liked a little more privacy, to tell you the truth."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 16, "text": "And so you're going to sing \"Danny Boy,\" which you also recorded on your \"Demi-Centennial\" album.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 17, "text": "Tell me why you chose this song and what it means to you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 18, "text": "This, though - you do this so beautifully.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Why didn't you do an Irish song, Rosemary? A nice Irish song would have been nice on the album. Do you know how many times I've heard that? So I get \"Danny Boy\" right out of the way - first song on th"}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 19, "text": "Would you sing it for us now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 20, "text": "Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I will, Terry."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 21, "text": "I think that just kind of sums up one of the many reasons I love Rosemary Clooney. You can take a song I've heard a million times and make me hear it in a way I've never heard it before. You and your sister Betty started singing professionally I guess in the mid-1940s, and you sang with the Tony Pastor Band.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 22, "text": "You know, great gig for two young girls. You were still girls.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 23, "text": "And how old were you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Betty was 15."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 24, "text": "You were so young that your uncle had to be your official guardian...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Eighteen."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 25, "text": "...And your chaperone.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Guardian, yes, yes."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 26, "text": "Yeah. So here you are, travelling with this big band of, of course, all men", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Uncle George."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Uncle George."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 28, "text": "Two young girls with your uncle as the chaperone.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 29, "text": "Was it embarrassing for you to have your uncle travelling with you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 30, "text": "Did you want to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was kind of no choice, you know, because they said we couldn't sign a contract because we didn't have - so he became our legal guardian. So it was Uncle George or no job. So actually, no, there "}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 31, "text": "OK, so there was the boy singer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Sure. We tried everything in the world. See - Yeah. Betty and I also smoked very early on, see? Couldn't find any cigarettes 'cause George didn't want us to smoke. So I said to my sister, Be"}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 32, "text": "What did it mean to be the girl singer in the band?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, because the boy singer went back and told Uncle George - fink."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 33, "text": "You set me up. Now I'm going to make you sing one.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just for the two of us."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 34, "text": "Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You cannot. I cannot do it. No, I have grandchildren out there."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 35, "text": "Now, this was the period right after World War II.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You cannot. I cannot do it. No, I have grandchildren out there."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 36, "text": "And the songs that were popular during the Second World War had such emotional value for people, and I'm sure you were singing some of those songs, yes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 37, "text": "What do those songs mean to you, and what was your experience of the Second World War?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Surely."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 38, "text": "I asked you to choose a song from the World War II period, a song very popular then, and you chose to sing \"I'll Be Seeing You.\" What does this song mean to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my grandmother had four kids in the service, and so there were four stars on the flag in the window. And there were a lot of those flags around, you know. And I remember seeing all the movies, y"}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 39, "text": "Then please sing it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If I talk about it, I won't be able to sing it."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 40, "text": "I wouldn't miss this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 41, "text": "That was beautiful.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Cathedral bells were tolling, and our hearts sang on. Was it the thrill of Paris or the April dawn? Who knows if we shall meet again? But when the morning chimes ring sweet again, I'll be se"}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 42, "text": "That was beautiful. Let's pick up where we left off. You were with the Tony Pastor Band with your sister, but your sister at some point decided to leave show business.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much, thank you. Thank you, thank you."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 43, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, actually not show business. She went back to Cincinnati, but she had a television show there. She just didn't want to be on the road anymore."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 44, "text": "Oh, did she think she was holding you back?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK, so my sister went back and did those kinds of things and played records and stuff. And so she was - you know, I think really, Terry, she did it for me because I'd made a couple of records with Ton"}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 45, "text": "And - so how do you feel about that when she left?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 46, "text": "You had your recording contract with Columbia Records...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I felt sad. I felt grateful. And I went."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 47, "text": "...Signed in 1949. And your producer was Mitch Miller.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 48, "text": "First single...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He here was..."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 49, "text": "Yeah, the first single he had to do was \"Come On-A My House.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Beard and all."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 50, "text": "No. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 51, "text": "Before that. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There were quite a few others."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 52, "text": "But it was your first gold record.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, quite a few others."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 53, "text": "Now he wanted you to record \"Come On-A My House.\" You didn't particularly want to record.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "First hit, yes. Absolutely."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 54, "text": "Why was he so adamant, and why were you so reluctant?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 55, "text": "One of the songs that Mitch Miller produced with you was \"Hey There,\" which...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was right. He knew that I could do it. But I - I think young people sometimes take themselves so damn seriously that really - that they miss the boat, you know, that they miss the chance. I could h"}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 56, "text": "...A beautiful recording, a lovely song, and I'm so glad you recorded it. And I'm going to request that you sing it now for us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 57, "text": "Do you love this song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just easy as anything to do. I can do that."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 58, "text": "I missed it. How did it go?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's terrible. I like \"Tenderly,\" that I did. You know, I like that. Oh, there was one that I recorded that I hope you missed, a song called \"Canasta.\""}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 59, "text": "No, I won't find out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Good, good. No, you don't..."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 60, "text": "OK, but I will hear \"Hey There?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 61, "text": "OK. Thank you for singing it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You will hear \"Hey There\" right now."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 62, "text": "Now while you were having, I think, a pretty difficult pregnancy, you recorded a wonderful record called \"Blue Rose.\" And it's you with the Duke Ellington Orchestra singing songs by Ellington and by Billy Strayhorn.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 63, "text": "And Billy Strayhorn, in case anyone doesn't know who he was, was a composer who worked with Ellington, was Ellington's arranger and protege...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, and Billy Strayhorn was the reason we could do it."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 64, "text": "...And just a brilliant composer. So my understanding of this record is that you had to basically send in your vocals because you were too sick to travel with this pregnancy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 65, "text": "So Billy Strayhorn worked with you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no, the doctors didn't want me to travel. And the band was working on the East Coast, and I wasn't home."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 66, "text": "Would you do an Ellington song for us now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, to begin with - the very beginning. We got the keys. But he was wonderful. He would wake me up in the morning, knock on my bedroom door and wake me up. I'd get myself together a little bit and go"}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 67, "text": "That was beautiful. We were talking about being pregnant as a performer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) They say into your early life romance came, and in that heart of yours burned a flame, a flame that flickered one day, then died away. Then with disillusion deep in your eyes, you learned th"}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 68, "text": "Five kids, five years. It must have been very challenging to be the mother of five and a performer at a time when not a lot of women were working. And there was also a kind of happy homemaker image to uphold in America.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 69, "text": "What were the some of the challenges for you of doing both?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 70, "text": "There was a period of your life when you became addicted to prescription pills.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the challenges didn't really rear their ugly heads until about the time when they started school, when there would be separations. And that was very difficult for me. I traveled a lot of times, "}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 71, "text": "Looking back, how do you think it happened? How do you think it got to that point?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 72, "text": "Who was the somebody?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's the truth. I cannot tell you, I miss it to this day. I could mention the words and the names of all of them, but - it was before Valium, so I can't say anything about Valium. But I had some tha"}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 73, "text": "You were in - what? - the psychiatric wing of a hospital.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I had - I was in a room with three other people. And it's funny because as soon as the medication - I got off the medication for a few days. It's funny how you start coming down. It's fast."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 74, "text": "So did you look at other people in this ward and say, what am I doing with them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I was in a locked ward. Yeah."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 75, "text": "But did you tune on one day and there you were in a movie? They were showing maybe \"White Christmas\" or \"Here Come The Girls?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We loved it. We just loved it. And then at night, you know, we'd get to watch the television for a while. We'd try to find a movie where somebody is crazy in it. We'd say, would you look at this perfo"}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 76, "text": "No?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, God, no."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 77, "text": "One of the people who really helped you when you were ready to make a comeback was Bing Crosby...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no, no, no. No. No."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 78, "text": "...Who you worked with first in \"White Christmas...\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 79, "text": "...Costarred opposite him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 80, "text": "That's really funny.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...We weren't allowed to have it. Anyway, it was this big bouquet of flowers. And Bob said, hope it's a boy."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 81, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's funny, isn't it?"}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 82, "text": "Did that seem funny at the time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I said to him - I said, how did you think? He said, well, my God, it's the only reason you've been going to the hospital for the last five years. I didn't know why you were in there."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 83, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's when I laughed for the first time."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 84, "text": "There's two things that are very special about the next song that you're going to sing. And one is that you sang it with Bing Crosby, who is special to you, and the other is that the lyric was written especially for you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That's when I thought something was really funny."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 85, "text": "Part of it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Part of it."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 86, "text": "By Ira Gershwin.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 87, "text": "And the song is \"I Can't Get Started.\" We'll talk about Ira Gershwin and your relationship with him a little bit later.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 88, "text": "But tell us about this lyric that he wrote for you and why he wrote it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 89, "text": "The song I think you're going to sing is \"God Bless The Child.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. Thank you. You're very nice. Thank you."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 90, "text": "Does this song have personal significance for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 91, "text": "That was beautiful.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. Wonderful."}
{"id": "789834038", "date": "2019-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 92, "text": "Rosemary Clooney, recorded in 1997 at the Herbst Theatre in San Francisco as part of the City Arts & Lecture series. We also heard John Oddo on piano; Charlie McCarthy, saxophone; Larry Souza, trumpet; Seward McCain, bass; and Colin Bailey, drums. That concert was recorded nearly 25 years ago. Since then, we've lost three of the people who were on stage that evening. Rosemary Clooney died in 2002. Her music director, John Oddo, who we heard at the piano, died earlier this year. The event was produced by the founding director of City Arts & Lectures, Sydney Goldstein, with her then-associate director Kathryn Barcos. Sydney died last year. We dedicate this broadcast to her.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much. Thank you."}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Next up in our interview series of staff picks from the decade is our 2016 interview with Carrie Fisher. I'm sure a lot of \"Star Wars\" fans are thinking about her now that the final episode of the Skywalker saga is in theaters. Carrie Fisher became known around the world as Princess Leia. She was in the first three \"Star Wars\" films as well as \"The Force Awakens\" in 2015 and \"The Last Jedi\" in 2017. She appears through archival footage in the new film \"The Rise Of Skywalker.\" Fisher was also the author of the memoir \"Wishful Drinking\" and the novel \"Postcards From The Edge,\" which she adapted into a film starring Meryl Streep. Fisher was the daughter of celebrities - singer Eddie Fisher and actor and singer Debbie Reynolds, who starred in \"Singin' In The Rain.\" My interview with Carrie Fisher was recorded in November 2016. She died one month later. The day after her death, her mother died. When we spoke, Fisher had just published a memoir called \"The Princess Diarist\" about making the first \"Star Wars\" film. The book included excerpts from the diary she wrote while shooting the film when she was having a secret affair with her co-star Harrison Ford.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 1, "text": "Carrie Fisher, welcome back to FRESH AIR. So how did you find your \"Star Wars\" diary? I mean, had you forgotten that you wrote it?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 2, "text": "So what most surprised you that you'd forgotten you'd experienced but you'd had written about in your journal?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I forgot that I wrote it, and I was making my bedroom bigger. And so there was all these boxes of writing underneath the floorboards. And I found it among all this other stuff, and I remembered when I"}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 3, "text": "Oh, yeah. That surprised me, too. It seems like you really needed other people to tell you who you were 'cause you didn't know.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That I was so insecure."}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 4, "text": "As you've pointed out, in \"Star Wars,\" you were the only girl in an all-boy fantasy. When did you start realizing that you were a part of boys' sex fantasies?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I know. At least I knew that. At least I was aware that I didn't know who I was. So that was something, but it was sad to me."}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not until way later, and I'm very glad of that. Like, about - I don't know - maybe eight years ago, some guy said to me, I thought about you every day from when I was 12 to when I was 22. And I said, "}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 6, "text": "What do you say to that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, you know, what do you say to that - thank you?"}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 7, "text": "So it was a very boys' kind of set when you were making the film?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Then I started becoming aware of it in an uncomfortable way."}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 8, "text": "Did that add to your feeling of insecurity?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's mostly - crews are still mostly men. I mean, I like that they have a continuity girl. So they don't call her continuity woman. It's a continuity girl. And there are women in makeup and hair"}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 9, "text": "As opposed to oversharing like you do now", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I sort of felt isolated. You know, I didn't really have anyone. I didn't confide in men. Well, I didn't confide in anyone then."}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 10, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I sort of felt isolated. You know, I didn't really have anyone. I didn't confide in men. Well, I didn't confide in anyone then."}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 11, "text": "So what's really made news from your book is your affair with Harrison Ford when you were making \"Star Wars.\" He was in his mid-30s and married. You were 19. Did you tell him you were going to write about it before you actually published the book?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that's right. I've made up for it."}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 12, "text": "I'm relieved to hear that", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. I don't think..."}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. I don't think..."}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 14, "text": "I'm relieved, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're relieved to hear it?"}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 15, "text": "Did you tell him, or did you ask him for permission?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no. I wouldn't have ambushed him like that. But it's still - no matter if I told him or not, it would - it probably feels like an ambush. It feels like an ambush to me, and I'm the one that wrote "}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 16, "text": "So he read it before it was published. And did he ask for an changes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then I said, no, I won't, you know, write anything that you don't want. I mean, I'll show it to you before, and you can take anything out that you want taken out. I don't want to, you know, make y"}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 17, "text": "But it sounds like you gave him that opportunity.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I sent it to him, and I never heard back. So I can't imagine that he wasn't - that he was comfortable with everything that was in it. But it's not like it's negative about him; it's just a personal st"}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 18, "text": "Right. But not to stop it, yeah", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I gave him the opportunity to take out anything he didn't like."}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 19, "text": "So it sounds like, you know, reading the book that you had a kind of love-hate relationship with your identity as Princess Leia. It made you a star. It's an iconic role. There's things you haven't liked about being Princess Leia in the eyes of the world. What's the downside?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I don't think it's that revealing, or it's certainly not offensive. It's not unkind about him. It's flattering. I mean, the way people are reacting to it is funny to me, too. I'd do him at 73."}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 20, "text": "You write in the book that you had endless issues with your appearance, how you looked in \"Star Wars.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". The downside is the hair and some of the outfits. But I like Princess Leia. I like how she handles things. I like how she treats people. I - she tells the truth. She, you know, gets what she wants d"}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 21, "text": "And you say, what I saw on the mirror is not, apparently, what many teenage boys saw. So what did you see when you looked in the mirror?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, absolutely."}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 22, "text": "And the hair?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A giant, fat face, like a sanddab with features."}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 23, "text": "Whose idea was it to have the buns on either side of your head?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The horrible hair. I just looked like - I don't know, like, this really fat-faced, cute in a - not a good way girl."}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 24, "text": "While we're speaking about appearance, in \"Return Of The Jedi,\" when you are held captive by Jabba the Hutt - who is this, like, giant, slimy, slug-like creature and crime boss - and you're wearing this, like, incredibly revealing metal bikini. You are rail thin", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they kept putting hair on. They kept saying to me, do you like this one? There were some worse ones, if you can imagine. But it was George and the producers. I mean, you know, they - Pat McDermo"}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 25, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they kept putting hair on. They kept saying to me, do you like this one? There were some worse ones, if you can imagine. But it was George and the producers. I mean, you know, they - Pat McDermo"}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 26, "text": "And you're wearing this, like - wearing - I mean, he has you chained. So there's this, like, big, like, metal chain around your neck. So it's a very, you know, like, PG-13, kind of campy, S&M, B&D image.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know."}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 27, "text": "And Jabba the Hutt is, like, licking his lips. He's stroking you. So there's something, like, so, like, sexual about it, but this is a movie for kids. So was there lots of joking on the set about, like, the deeper S&M imagery of this scene?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 28, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, what my joke was, when we first rehearsed it - they're brought in front of Jabba. They talk to Jabba. Jabba talks to Harrison and Mark. And then they're led off. I never - they never say, hey, how"}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 29, "text": "And nearly naked", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Which I thought they should have kept in there because it was like, where am I in all this? Sure, they're going to be digested for 2,000 years, but I have to stay with the slug with the big tongue."}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 30, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Which I thought they should have kept in there because it was like, where am I in all this? Sure, they're going to be digested for 2,000 years, but I have to stay with the slug with the big tongue."}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 31, "text": "We're listening to our 2016 interview with Carrie Fisher. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nearly naked which is not a, you know, style choice for me."}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 32, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to our interview with Carrie Fisher, recorded in November 2016. She died one month later on December 27. The following day, December 28, her mother, Debbie Reynolds, died. Your mother is Debbie Reynolds. You had a very contentious relationship with her when you were a teenager - and I think that probably continued into your 20s - in that, you know, you worked in her Broadway show. You were in the chorus of that. You sang in her Broadway act, you know, in her cabaret act for a while. So you worked together. In some ways, you were very close. In some ways, you were, like, very far apart. You were anxious to move away from home. How did your relationship change as she became an older woman, like when you became - like, now, like, you're middle-aged. She's - or older - she's in her 80s. What's - is the relationship still contentious? Has it changed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nearly naked which is not a, you know, style choice for me."}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 33, "text": "Did you appreciate her strength and her accomplishments more as you got older?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not at all. I can appreciate - she's an immensely powerful woman, and I just admire my mother very much. She also annoys me sometimes when she's, you know, mad at the nurses. But, you know, she's an e"}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 34, "text": "How did you feel about her celebrity when you were young? Was it helpful? Was it intrusive?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, God, yeah. You know, when I was a kid I just thought she was someone who was telling me what to do, and I didn't want to do it."}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 35, "text": "Your mother's most iconic film is \"Singin' In The Rain,\" you know, one of the great musicals of all time. What are your thoughts about the movie? And if you like it now, did you always, or did it take you a while to appreciate that film, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had to share her, and I didn't like that. When we went out, people sort of walked over me to get her. And no, I didn't like it. I didn't like it. And I - you know, people thought that - I over"}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 36, "text": "That's so great you're on the list together", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no. I always liked it. It's brilliant. I mean, to do the transition from sound - from silent to sound is a brilliant, brilliant time to focus on. And what was interesting to me is that there's thr"}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 37, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no. I always liked it. It's brilliant. I mean, to do the transition from sound - from silent to sound is a brilliant, brilliant time to focus on. And what was interesting to me is that there's thr"}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 38, "text": "You write that you felt doomed to have bad relationships with men because that's what you'd seen. You know, Eddie Fisher, your father, walked out on your mother when you were 2 to be with Elizabeth Taylor. Your mother's second husband spent all of her money - I mean, left her with nothing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know."}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 39, "text": "So when women dress like you at Comic-Con conventions, what do you most frequently see reflected back at you - like, which costumes, which hairdos?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Left her with nothing, and she had to pay his debts. So future earnings went to him. Everything she made went to his debts, to Harry Karl, who was also having sex with hookers the entire length of the"}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 40, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my favorite one to see is the metal bikini on men."}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 41, "text": "That's a thing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that is what has been happening a lot."}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 42, "text": "That's hilarious.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. A lot - and not thin men, by the way."}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 43, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, so that makes me feel good about myself."}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 44, "text": ". All right. Carrie Fisher, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Kind of a before-and-after thing - this is way after. Not only is Princess Leia fatter. She's a guy."}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 45, "text": "Carrie Fisher recorded in November 2016, one month before her death. Debbie Reynolds died one day after Fisher's death. Our end of the decade series featuring staff picks from the decade continues through the end of next week. If you enjoy hearing interviews from the past, we have a great new archive site featuring FRESH AIR interviews going back as early as the 1970s, when FRESH AIR was a local program in Philadelphia. You can search by name or topic. You can make playlists. Check it out at freshairarchive.org.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thanks for talking to me."}
{"id": "790775091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Carrie Fisher", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carrie Fisher", "question_index": 46, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Mooj Zadie, Seth Kelley and Joel Wolfram. Therese Madden directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thanks for talking to me."}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're ending the decade with a holiday week series of interviews featuring staff picks from the decade. We begin with Meryl Streep, who we've been lucky enough to have on our show twice; today, excerpts from both interviews. She is widely acknowledged as one of our greatest actors. Here's just a few of her awards - three Oscars for \"Iron Lady,\" \"Sophie's Choice\" and \"Kramer Vs. Kramer\"; five Golden Globes, including for \"Julie And Julia,\" \"The Devil Wears Prada\" and \"Adaptation.\" She also won the Globes' Cecil B. DeMille Award. She won four primetime Emmys. I could go on. This year she costarred in the HBO series \"Big Little Lies,\" and she's now on Greta Gerwig's adaptation of \"Little Women\" in the role of Aunt March. When we spoke in February 2012, her film \"Iron Lady\" was about to open, in which she portrayed Margaret Thatcher, the former British prime minister. Here's an excerpt of her Oscar-winning performance as Thatcher.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 1, "text": "Margaret Thatcher later took voice lessons from a drama coach to help her sound more authoritative. Here's Streep as Thatcher after those lessons addressing Parliament about the war in the Falklands.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Margaret Thatcher) He may receive a valuable education in spite of himself."}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 2, "text": "Meryl Streep, welcome to FRESH AIR. Thank you so much for being here.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Margaret Thatcher) ...Shown in the knowledge that though much is sacrificed, in the end, right will prevail over wrong. UNIDENTIFIED ACTORS #2: (As crowd) Yeah."}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 3, "text": "Oh, wow. Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much for having me, Terry. I'm a huge fan."}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 4, "text": "So we just heard you before and after Margaret Thatcher has voice lessons to teach her authority and power so that she can speak more powerfully to the parliament. So can you talk a little bit about what you think she learned with those vocal lessons and how you transformed your voice as her after she really learned her way around as a public figure and had the advantage of those voice lessons?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 5, "text": "So how did you change your voice for the before and after, for the more confident and experienced Margaret Thatcher versus the early Margaret Thatcher?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that voice lessons really just bring out a voice that you already possess. So she already had whatever - the sort of stentorian tones that she acquired over time. They were all lying in "}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had evidence of both voices, you know, from the public record, so I could listen to them. And it's sort of my fun to sing along with records and imitate people that are on the telephone that h"}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 7, "text": "So you need a lot of breath to keep talking like that. Did you have it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And she also had a sort of way like a railroad train of going - taking a breath and starting quite quietly and making a point in a way that you don't really know that this point is going to be made th"}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 8, "text": "I think it's interesting that when you're doing the voice of a real person - or, I suppose, if you're learning an accent, too - you think of it as singing along with a record. So is that what you do? Like, you play Margaret Thatcher giving a speech, and you do the equivalent of singing along with it. You give the speech as you're listening to it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Yeah, I did need a lot of breath. I needed much more breath than I have after all my expensive drama school training. I couldn't keep up with her."}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 9, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I say that because that's my way in at the very beginning..."}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 10, "text": "You know, I hear a certain similarity between your voice in \"The Iron Lady\" as Margaret Thatcher and your voice in \"Julie And Julia\" as Julia Child. It almost strikes me as if, and I never thought about this until hearing you in both those films, that if Margaret Thatcher kind of drank too much...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was just - we can't know what we mean to each other, you know? Artists, you can't know - you can't know that."}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 11, "text": "...And started being, like, surprised and delighted about how her, like, food concoction was behaving, that she might sound like Julia Child. What do you think?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was just - we can't know what we mean to each other, you know? Artists, you can't know - you can't know that."}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 12, "text": "Yeah", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they had a similar flutiness in - especially in the younger - Julia Child had a flutiness, you know?"}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they had a similar flutiness in - especially in the younger - Julia Child had a flutiness, you know?"}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 14, "text": "Let me play a little bit of you as Julia Child in \"Julie And Julia.\" And this is a scene when you're on TV early in your TV career, and you're making some kind of like mashed potato pancake concoction that you're about to flip. And it's not - it kind of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Which is - and it's also part of her class, the way that there are women of that time and of that class - we don't like to talk about that in America, but there are classes in America. And she was of "}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 15, "text": "It doesn't go well. It kind of splatters in the air, and half of it lands on the stove instead of in the pan. So let's hear a little bit of that. And this scene alternates with you on TV and with Julie watching you on TV.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It doesn't go well."}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 16, "text": "Yeah, Amy Adams is Julie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Amy Adams, yeah."}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 17, "text": "I know I love that because you talk about studying someone's voice as if it's music, and she has such a musical voice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Julia Child) You've just got to practice, like the piano. I'm Julia Child. Bon appetit."}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 18, "text": "I was going to say that, exactly. It sounds like she's been running up a hill.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 19, "text": "Me neither, honestly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She always sounds like that. I feel like that when I'm in the kitchen. Don't you? Well, I'm not very good cook, but..."}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 20, "text": "I believe that's why delis exist, so that I don't have to cook.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just..."}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 21, "text": "You know, I compared her voice and Thatcher's voice before. But breath-wise, they're the opposite because she's almost, like, gasping for air, and Thatcher has this, like, endlessly long breath.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I got better after this, and my entire family really did appreciate it. Usually, they're resentful of movies that I go off and make, but this one had a bonus attached. But yeah, she had no breat"}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 22, "text": "We're listening to my 2012 interview with Meryl Streep. We'll hear more of the interview after a break as we continue our series of staff picks from the decade. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well she's so alive, Julia Child. And Margaret is so designed. She's so intent upon making her point. That's the most important thing, is that she win the argument. And there is nothing that stands in"}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 2012 interview with Meryl Streep.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well she's so alive, Julia Child. And Margaret is so designed. She's so intent upon making her point. That's the most important thing, is that she win the argument. And there is nothing that stands in"}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 24, "text": "OK, so here's a story I read which I assume is true, but you can tell me if it actually happened - that in - for the 1976 Dino De Laurentiis remake of \"King Kong,\" you auditioned for Dino De Laurentiis and his son...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well she's so alive, Julia Child. And Margaret is so designed. She's so intent upon making her point. That's the most important thing, is that she win the argument. And there is nothing that stands in"}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 25, "text": "...Who were Italian.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 26, "text": "And Dino De Laurentiis said in Italian - what did he say?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 27, "text": "This being you", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Speaking Italian) I don't know. I can't speak Italian anymore because I'm so old and forgetful. But he said something like, but this is so ugly. Why do you bring me this?"}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 28, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Speaking Italian) I don't know. I can't speak Italian anymore because I'm so old and forgetful. But he said something like, but this is so ugly. Why do you bring me this?"}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 29, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 30, "text": "So a very interesting story because you're being told early in career, basically, that you're not beautiful.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "this is it. This is what you get, sort of. And I left. I mean, I was very upset, but I didn't show it. Yes, it's a true story."}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 31, "text": "You're not qualified. Your face is not qualified for this role. And you're also...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 32, "text": "And body. But then you're also making the decision to let them know that you understand what they said. They were intentionally speaking in Italian so that you wouldn't understand them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Face and body, I believe."}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 33, "text": "But you did understand them. You let them know you understood them and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Right, right."}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 34, "text": "Did you worry that you were basically - I mean, you hadn't been in any movies yet. So did you worry that word would spread about you that you were - that you spoke back to directors?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because they did - they think actresses are stupid. That was the other thing that - I mean, not they because I don't think his son was that way. His son was my champion. I mean, he was the reason I wa"}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 35, "text": "Yeah, that you were a real pain and that you were - yeah, that you were problems, so, like, avoid her.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A pain in the a**?"}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 36, "text": "How much did you want it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". How can I hide it? I mean, yeah, that is the package, you know? And - but I was not - I was not probably suited to that role either. I mean, that was the truth."}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 37, "text": "You gave a terrific commencement address at Barnard in 2010. And one of things you talked about was that the hardest thing in the world is to persuade a straight, male audience to identify with a woman character. It's easier for women because we were brought up identifying with male characters in literature. It's hard for straight boys to identify with Juliet or Wendy in \"Peter Pan,\" whereas girls identify with Romeo and with Peter Pan. What led you to that conclusion?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not much. I mean, I did want a break, but I didn't think I would be good in it, honestly. I didn't. It represented something that - I don't know - I wasn't drawn to. So I suppose it was easier to be o"}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 38, "text": "Do you think that women have that kind of double consciousness and men, like, boys...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What let me to that was I have never - I mean, I watch movies. And I don't care who is the protagonist, I feel what that guy is feeling. You know, if it's Tom Cruise leaping over a building - I want t"}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 39, "text": "...Don't make that leap?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it has to do with..."}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 40, "text": "It's the first time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it has to do with very deep things, you know, because it might be that imagining yourself as a girl is a diminishment. But it is something that when I made \"The Devil Wears Prada,\" it was the fi"}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 41, "text": "That's really interesting. Yeah, what do women tell you their favorite role is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "First time. First time. And they say lots of things. I think they - this is what I was trying to say in that speech. It's very hard point to make because I guess it's hard to wrap your head around it."}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 42, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, they love everything."}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 43, "text": "So do you like seeing yourself on screen, or is that an uncomfortable experience?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK? They really do. I mean, it's a range of stuff."}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 44, "text": "Let's look at that again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't dislike it. I don't, you know, pop in the CD - the DVD."}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 45, "text": "My interview with Meryl Streep was recorded in 2012. After a short break, we'll hear an excerpt of my 2016 interview with her, in which we talked about her singing. And we'll hear an excerpt of my interview with Carrie Fisher recorded in 2016, one month before her death as we continue our interview series of staff picks from the decade. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, when I was younger, I spent way too much time thinking about that. So stupid."}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 46, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. As part of our staff picks from the decade series, we're going to hear an excerpt of our second interview with Meryl Streep, recorded in 2016 after the release of her movie, \"Florence Foster Jenkins,\" in which she portrayed a wildly off-key, screechy singer. In that film, Streep was convincing as a committed but terrible singer. But Streep sang well for real in other films, including \"Postcards From The Edge,\" \"Mamma Mia,\" and \"Into The Woods.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, when I was younger, I spent way too much time thinking about that. So stupid."}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 47, "text": "So you were in the screen adaptation of the Stephen Sondheim musical \"Into The Woods,\" and you played the Witch. And the story in this is - basically, it's a mash-up of several fairy tales, including \"Red Riding Hood,\" \"Rapunzel,\" \"Cinderella,\" \"Jack And The Beanstalk.\" And you play a witch, a beautiful woman who, because of a spell, was turned into a witch and so on. And this is a song that you sing in it. And it's a very Sondheim song in the sense that the intervals are odd in a way that Sondheim intervals are unusual. The syncopations are unusual in his unusual way. So it takes a lot of talent to sing this. So here's Meryl Streep from the soundtrack of the Stephen Sondheim musical \"Into The Woods.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, when I was younger, I spent way too much time thinking about that. So stupid."}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 48, "text": "Meryl Streep from the soundtrack of the Stephen Sondheim musical \"Into The Woods.\" Did Stephen Sondheim work with you at all on that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You're so nice. You're not good. You're not bad."}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 49, "text": "Oh, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A little bit. What he did was he wrote me a new song that we recorded but was taken out of the movie because of length. But he played it for me in his apartment and sang it to me. I mean, it's one of "}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 50, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know, for the musical theater."}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 51, "text": "Do you know who you are singing as yourself? Because I've only seen you sing in character. And when you're...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it was like, you know, c'mon, I could die now."}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 52, "text": "...In, like, a rock musical, you know, \"Ricki And The Flash,\" and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, in character."}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 53, "text": "...In \"Postcards From The Edge,\" you're singing more - I don't know, but somewhere it's between like - well, there's a country and western song. And then there's a more, you know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 54, "text": "Yeah. So, like, I don't know - I don't have a sense of, like, if I said, and tonight, Meryl Streep in concert, I don't know what you'd sing or how you'd sound.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. In \"Postcards,\" yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 55, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it would be a varied show. I don't know. I don't really... (vocalizing)."}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 56, "text": "Is that a warm-up exercise?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't really..."}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 57, "text": "Well, getting back to music, I want to play something else. And this is from \"Postcards From The Edge,\" which was made in 1990, directed by the now late Mike Nichols based on a book by...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have a - yeah, it's just like - well, one Christmas I remember when I was 12, my mother decided to - in front of the whole family, the gathered family, including my formidable grandmother Mammie (ph"}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 58, "text": "...By Carrie Fisher, yes. And it's kind of biographical. So you've been in rehab. You're kind of trying to figure out your life in this, your character. And your mother, who is modeled on Carrie Fisher's mother, Debbie Reynolds, is a singer and performer who was big in musicals in the '50s and '60s. You've been living with her. There's a party at her place, and you're asked to sing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Carrie Fisher."}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 59, "text": "That's right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's funny that I spoke about my - that moment in my grandmother's house because it was very similar. Shirley MacLaine plays my mother. She makes me do this. And I've just gotten out of rehab. And my "}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 60, "text": "I really like your performance in that. You've been living with her. There's a party at her place, and you're asked to sing. So you go up to - I forget if it's a guitarist or pianist - and you start working it out...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And throws her legs up on the piano and the red, sequined dress. And it just blows her daughter out of the water once again."}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 61, "text": "...With him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 62, "text": "And the song is \"You Don't Know Me.\" So here is Meryl Streep from \"Postcards From The Edge.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 63, "text": "That's Meryl Streep singing in the film \"Postcards From The Edge.\" Well, Meryl Streep, I really regret that we're out of time. It's been great to talk with you. Thank you so much for being on our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Suzanne Vale, singing) No, you don't know the one who dreams of you at night, longs to kiss your lips, longs to hold you tight. To you, I'm just a friend, and that's all that I've ever been. But y"}
{"id": "790787091", "date": "2019-12-26", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 64, "text": "Meryl Streep recorded in 2016. The film \"Postcards From The Edge\" starring Streep was written by Carrie Fisher, who adapted it from her novel. After a short break, we'll hear my 2016 interview with Fisher recorded after the publication of her memoir about making the first \"Star Wars\" film as we continue our interview series of staff picks from the decade. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks, Terry. I enjoyed it."}
{"id": "790794191", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Book Of Mormon' Creators Trey Parker And Matt Stone", "question_index": 0, "text": "Trey Parker, Matt Stone - welcome back to FRESH AIR, and congratulations on \"The Book Of Mormon.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As characters, singing) You're going to die someday. But if you read this book, you'll see that there's another way. Hello. Hello."}
{"id": "790794191", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Book Of Mormon' Creators Trey Parker And Matt Stone", "question_index": 1, "text": "So did Mormons come to your door, and did your family let them in when you were growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Cool. Thank you."}
{"id": "790794191", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Book Of Mormon' Creators Trey Parker And Matt Stone", "question_index": 2, "text": "So I don't want people to get the wrong idea about how you present Mormonism in your show because you kind of challenge the credibility of this - the literal credibility of the story of \"The Book Of Mormon.\" But you love your characters, and you think that eventually they do do good in the world", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's like a driving simulator. Yeah."}
{"id": "790794191", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Book Of Mormon' Creators Trey Parker And Matt Stone", "question_index": 3, "text": ", not in a way that they expected to. But you're not about being, like, really, kind of cynical in this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's like a driving simulator. Yeah."}
{"id": "790794191", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Book Of Mormon' Creators Trey Parker And Matt Stone", "question_index": 4, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I know, and I really - what I grew up loving Broadway for was the fact that it - at least, you know, in all these classics, you know, they weren't cynical. They were very optimistic, and it offe"}
{"id": "790794191", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Book Of Mormon' Creators Trey Parker And Matt Stone", "question_index": 5, "text": "So have Mormons in the audience enjoyed the musical? Do you know? Have you gotten feedback?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And as cheesy as that can seem, I loved it, you know. And that's - you know, I don't think anyone would want to go see a two-hour-long Mormon bashing, and that's not - we wouldn't want to see that, ei"}
{"id": "790794191", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Book Of Mormon' Creators Trey Parker And Matt Stone", "question_index": 6, "text": "And the official church response?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's really funny. We can actually - when we were there for previews and we were there that whole month where we go and watch it every single night and try to change it, you could hear the pockets of "}
{"id": "790794191", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Book Of Mormon' Creators Trey Parker And Matt Stone", "question_index": 7, "text": "OK, time for another song", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2011 interview with South Park creators Trey Parker and Matt Stone. Their musical, \"The Book Of Mormon,\" won nine Tony Awards. And their conversation with "}
{"id": "790794191", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Book Of Mormon' Creators Trey Parker And Matt Stone", "question_index": 8, "text": ". So I want to play \"Turn It Off,\" which is this great production number. And, you know, in a lot of musicals, there's that big, inspiring number where you're told to, like, you know, be yourself and think great thoughts whenever you're sad, like, put on a happy face, or if you fall down, pick yourself up and start all over again. But this is called \"Turn It Off\"", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2011 interview with South Park creators Trey Parker and Matt Stone. Their musical, \"The Book Of Mormon,\" won nine Tony Awards. And their conversation with "}
{"id": "790794191", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Book Of Mormon' Creators Trey Parker And Matt Stone", "question_index": 9, "text": ". And so, like, if you're feeling something unpleasant, just, like, turn it off. It's a song about repressing feelings. Tell us about writing this song and the kinds of songs that inspired this one.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2011 interview with South Park creators Trey Parker and Matt Stone. Their musical, \"The Book Of Mormon,\" won nine Tony Awards. And their conversation with "}
{"id": "790794191", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Book Of Mormon' Creators Trey Parker And Matt Stone", "question_index": 10, "text": "Your co-director and choreographer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This was a little ditty. I wrote a first version of this basically because I just - we knew we had to have a big tap number. We've got a bunch of dudes in, you know, white shirts and ties. It's like, "}
{"id": "790794191", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Book Of Mormon' Creators Trey Parker And Matt Stone", "question_index": 11, "text": "So let's hear it. This is \"Turn It Off\" from the new cast recording of \"The Book Of Mormon,\" which was co-written by my guests Trey Parker and Matt Stone, the co-creators of South Park.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, the co-director and choreographer - and turned it from a little tap song into a giant tap song and added all this other stuff. And so it was just this great song that you watched going from this"}
{"id": "790794191", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Book Of Mormon' Creators Trey Parker And Matt Stone", "question_index": 12, "text": "UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #12: (As Elder McKinley) Turn it off like a light switch. Just go click. It's a cool little Mormon trick. We do it all the time. When you're feeling certain feelings that just don't seem right, treat those pesky feelings like a reading light - and turn them off like a lightswitch. Just go back. Really, what's so hard about that? Turn it off.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, the co-director and choreographer - and turned it from a little tap song into a giant tap song and added all this other stuff. And so it was just this great song that you watched going from this"}
{"id": "790794191", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Book Of Mormon' Creators Trey Parker And Matt Stone", "question_index": 13, "text": "That's \"Turn It Off\" from the new cast recording of \"The Book Of Mormon,\" and the show was co-written by my guests Trey Parker and Matt Stone, who also created \"South Park.\" So every time I hear that song, I laugh because it's ironic, but it's also - it's so upbeat and so catchy and so - I don't know. The orchestra...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Elders, singing) We're all alone. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #12: (As Elder McKinley, singing) We'd swim naked in the sea, and then he'd try and - whoa. Turn it off like a light switch. There; it's gone. "}
{"id": "790794191", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Book Of Mormon' Creators Trey Parker And Matt Stone", "question_index": 14, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That song for me..."}
{"id": "790794191", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Book Of Mormon' Creators Trey Parker And Matt Stone", "question_index": 15, "text": "Exactly. It's about all these...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That song for me is funny because it's so happy, but it's about something that, like, we all..."}
{"id": "790794191", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Book Of Mormon' Creators Trey Parker And Matt Stone", "question_index": 16, "text": "...Tragic things.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We all know, and it's kind of..."}
{"id": "790794191", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Book Of Mormon' Creators Trey Parker And Matt Stone", "question_index": 17, "text": "Just one more thing - I think that \"The Book Of Mormon\" has something of the quality of \"South Park\" in the sense that \"South Park\" is just kind of stripped-down animation. It's down to the basics, and there's something so basic about the show. It's, like, great music, great performers, great orchestrations, really original concepts, but there's nothing fancy about the sets. It's just...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's kind of the most tragic thing, yeah. And, I mean, not just for - you know, like, the character that sings it is played by Rory O'Malley, who just kills it in that song. He's amazing. It's about a"}
{"id": "790794191", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Book Of Mormon' Creators Trey Parker And Matt Stone", "question_index": 18, "text": "Like, it's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "790794191", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Book Of Mormon' Creators Trey Parker And Matt Stone", "question_index": 19, "text": "Well, it's been great to talk with you again. Congratulations on all the success you've been having with \"The Book Of Mormon,\" and thank you so much for coming back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a very conscious decision. The reason that we did that is because we did so many workshops in New York in the sort of three years leading up to it, and we would do these workshops which were no"}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 0, "text": "OK, so I want to talk to you about Hamilton. And so let's start with \"My Shot.\"", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, editor of the website TV Worth Watching, sitting in for Terry Gross. We usually spend this time of the season revisiting some of our staff's interview picks for"}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 1, "text": "And this is Alexander Hamilton making his big statement about how, you know, he's come to America. He's going to make it. And he's not giving away his shot. You know, and first, it's going to be in the Revolutionary War and then in the new American government. So let's hear some of it, and then we'll talk. So this is Lin-Manuel Miranda from the cast recording of \"Hamilton.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 2, "text": "That's Lin Manuel-Miranda from his cast recording of \"Hamilton.\" So you are so incredible at these, like, intricate rhymes that you do in this show. How do you assemble all these intricately placed rhymes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) I am not throwing away my shot. I am not throwing away my shot. Hey yo, I'm just like my country, I'm young, scrappy and hungry, and I'm not throwing away my shot. I'm 'a get a scholarship t"}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 3, "text": "Because he was so smart and verbal...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And so that was the fun in constructing that. And it was many days and months of work to sort of make his lyrics just that much more intricate than everybody else's."}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 4, "text": "Yeah. So do you use any tools like a rhyming dictionary? Do you catalog words? Do you have, like, lists of words that you - like, when you were doing your research, did you write down key words that you thought would be good to use in lyrics and so that you'd have a kind of storage box of, like, words or phrases that you could work with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would love to tell you that that's exactly what I did."}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 6, "text": "Do you do anything to be able to capture the speed without tripping up your tongue? Does it get harder or easier over time when you're doing the same, you know, raps every night? And again, it's really fast, intricate lyrics, and you have to get them on the beat and do it without stumbling.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That would seem like I took such care. But honestly, I kind of throw the kitchen sink at whatever situation I'm in at the moment I'm writing. So I remember when I got up to Lafayette's section and bei"}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The fact that I'm a performer helps me enormously as a lyricist. I wouldn't give a performer something I couldn't deliver myself, with the occasional exception of Daveed Diggs, who's just so exception"}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 8, "text": "So \"Hamilton\" has such an interesting connection to the White House for two reasons. The show basically originates at the White House. You started off thinking of \"Hamilton\" as a concept album about Alexander Hamilton, and the first time you performed one of the songs - the opening song from the show - it was at the White House. What was it - like, an evening of American music or something that Michelle...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wrote the part. And it was also the most thrilling roller coaster every night. You know, I got to fall in love. I got to win a war. I got to write words that inspired a nation."}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 9, "text": "...Obama presented?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It was evening..."}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 10, "text": "Let's hear a little bit of that performance at the White House from 2009. Here's Lin-Manuel Miranda.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Of poetry and spoken word. Yeah. And it was in about May of 2009. You know, fresh new administration - and thrilled to be asked."}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 11, "text": "That's Lin-Manuel Miranda performing the opening number from \"Hamilton\" at the White House with Michelle and Barack Obama in the audience. So let's skip ahead - when Vice President-elect Mike Pence attended \"Hamilton,\" and he was cheered - he was booed when he was there. And then when the show was over, Brandon Victor Dixon, who now plays Aaron Burr, came out and read, like, a little speech directed to Mike Pence. And I'll read some of it for our listeners who might not have heard this yet. This is what he said. (Reading) Vice President-elect Pence, we welcome you, and we truly thank you for joining us here at \"Hamilton: An American Musical.\" We really do. We, sir, are the diverse America who are alarmed and anxious that your new administration will not protect us, our planet, our children, our parents or defend us and uphold our inalienable rights, sir. But we truly hope this show has inspired you to uphold our American values and to work on behalf of all of us - all of us. Thank you truly for seeing this show, this wonderful American story told by a diverse group of men, women of different colors, creeds and orientations. So you co-wrote this. That's my understanding. You co-wrote it with the director and the producer. Do I have that right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Anything you need to know - I'll be playing Vice President Aaron Burr. And snap along if you like. (Rapping) How does a bastard, orphan, son of a whore and a Scotsman dropped in the middle of a forgot"}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 12, "text": "OK, so what was the conversation like between you and whoever else was involved about whether you should say something or not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, with Tommy and Jeffrey. We got the heads-up that he was coming that afternoon and sort of put that together before his arrival."}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 13, "text": "So \"Hamilton\" is, in part, a story about an immigrant and - about immigrants and - which, of course, relates to your family background. Your father came to New York from Puerto Rico for college. And your mother...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2017 interview with Lin-Manuel Miranda, the composer, lyricist and original star of the musical \"Hamilton.\" It's one of our staff picks for interviews of t"}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 14, "text": "Right. Exactly. And your mother, I think, moved as an infant to the U.S. from Puerto Rico.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Technically making him not an immigrant because Puerto Rico is a commonwealth, but the experience of Spanish to English and displacement is very similar."}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 15, "text": "And you grew up in a predominantly Latino neighborhood. You went to, like, the Hunter College elementary and high school. Do I have that right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct."}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 16, "text": "Yeah. So you've spoken in the past about this divide between who you were at home and in your Latino neighborhood and who you were at school with friends. What was the difference between those two yous?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 17, "text": "So you obviously, you know, love rap and hip-hop. What were the first recordings that made a big impression - the first rap recordings that made a big impression on you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I had that experience as well. So, you know, we changed depending on the room we're in. I'm talking quieter because I'm talking to Terry Gross."}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 18, "text": "So I'm going to put you on the spot and ask you to do one the first rhymes that you remember writing that you still remember today.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have several. I remember my sister bringing home The Fat Boys when I was really little and also taking me to the first hip-hop movies. I remember going to see \"Beat Street\" and going to see \"Breakin"}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) Well, hello, my name is Lin. But if you're dyslexic, call me Nil. My rhymes are going to kill, so I suggest you write your will and leave your [expletive] to me. I am the epitome of coolness"}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 20, "text": "Oh, come on. That was pretty good. That was funny", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 22, "text": "So your father has or had a political consulting company. He worked with New York City Mayor Ed Koch.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 23, "text": "He still has it - and advising him on Latino affairs. And you apparently wrote jingles when you were younger for this political consulting company that your father owns. How old were you when you started writing them? And please sing one for us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He has."}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 24, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, jingles is misleading because it sounds like a, oh, how I wait to wake up in the morning. It's not - they're not like \"I Like Ike.\" They - it's background music for commercials. I was basically "}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 25, "text": "So you know how you were talking about the compartmentalized you, the you you were when you were at home and in your Latino neighborhood and the you you were at school when your friends were white and not Latino and that you learned, finally, to bring all those parts together? Was the same kind of compartmentalization happening for you musically? You loved Broadway shows, and you loved hip-hop.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...When he was running for governor. And whatever Democrat was running or my dad was working with, I was writing the campaign music. I liked writing the negative ads more than the - because it's more "}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 26, "text": "And it's maybe hard to find people who, when they're teens, love both.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a fantastic question."}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 27, "text": "Oh, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, absolutely. And honestly, what a fantastic question because theater is really the thing that began to break that divide for me. My senior year in high school, I was the director of the s"}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 28, "text": "So I have to ask you about Stephen Sondheim because you have a very interesting history with him. First of all, when you were directing \"West Side Story\" in high school, he came to your class because he was the friend of the father of one of the students in the cast and...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli in for Terry Gross back with more of Terry's 2017 interview with Lin-Manuel Miranda, creator of \"Hamilton.\" The Broadway hip-hop musical about the Founding Fathe"}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 29, "text": "...Spoke to you. So you got...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. He was..."}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 30, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He's - John Weidman's daughter..."}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 31, "text": "He wrote the book for \"Assassins\" and \"Pacific Overtures.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Went to our school."}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 32, "text": "Yeah. OK, so there's that. So you get to meet him in high school, and then you get to write the Spanish lyrics for the Spanish production of \"West Side Story.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Pacific Overtures,\" yes."}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 33, "text": "And then you got to be in a production of \"Merrily We Roll Along,\" which is a great Sondheim musical that always needs to be revived because the original Broadway run was so very short. And so this was a City Center - a New York City Center Encores! production. In fact, I want to play just a little bit of you in that, which...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 34, "text": "Encores! was gracious enough to - I saw you in this production. So you're playing a lyricist who works with a composer, but the composer has kind of, like, sold out. And, you know, he's just doing, like, commercial work, and the lyricist now has come to think of the composer - instead of just being his friend and collaborator Franklin Shepard, he thinks of him now as, like, Franklin Shepard, Inc. because he's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, great."}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 35, "text": "...So much about, like, deals and making money. In this scene, like, you're getting interviewed on TV. You're just kind of pretty bitter about the whole collaboration with this composer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 36, "text": "UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character) Now, how do you two work together?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 37, "text": "OK. That's my guest Lin-Manuel Miranda. You're so much fun in that, and I really think doing hip-hop rhymes is great preparation for that lyric.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm surprised at how much I like this."}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 38, "text": "For singing that, yeah. And Sondheim has written so many - he's just, like, the most brilliant lyricist. But what are some of the things you feel you learned either from talking with Sondheim - because I know he also gave you feedback on \"Hamilton\" before you actually put it on stage. So what are things you've learned from actually talking to him or just from, like, getting intimately acquainted with his work?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely it is."}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 39, "text": "The Sondheim song that's closest to comic rap is, in my opinion, \"Not Getting Married,\" which is done...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The thing he always sort of stressed was variety, variety, variety, variety, variety. When you're dealing with a constant rhythm, no matter how great your lyrics are, if you don't switch it up, people"}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 40, "text": "Yeah. Do more. Do more.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Is everybody here? Because if everybody's here, I'd like to thank you all for coming to the wedding."}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 41, "text": "Anyone who could do that song has an incredible tongue", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd appreciate your going even more. I mean, you must have lots of better things to do. And not a word of it to Paul. Remember Paul - you know, the man I'm going to marry? But I'm not because I'd neve"}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 42, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd appreciate your going even more. I mean, you must have lots of better things to do. And not a word of it to Paul. Remember Paul - you know, the man I'm going to marry? But I'm not because I'd neve"}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 43, "text": "It's so tricky. It's so fast. And the words are so just kind of, like, dense and funny and rhyme-y (ph). And so have you thought about that song a lot in terms of intricate rhyme schemes and what the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 44, "text": "...Human voice is capable of without totally tripping up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think about..."}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 45, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Honestly, I think about that song more when people ask me, how did you think rap was going to work on Broadway? And I go, nothing in my show is faster than \"Getting Married Today\" in \"Company.\""}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 46, "text": "So did you learn that intuitively, or did Sondheim tell you that that was his intention - to stay away from as many H's as possible and to keep it to things that could easily be said?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I don't know what you're talking about. There's so much precedent for the work in both quote-unquote \"hip-hop\" and not in terms of patter for the stage. But, you know, what's amazing about \"Getting"}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 47, "text": "So did the writer of \"Alexander Hamilton\" (ph) try to avoid H's in writing the lyrics?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I read about that in a conversation he had at some point, but I also knew that intuitively because of the hip-hop artists I liked who rapped fast. You know, they're not trying to make somethin"}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 48, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I read about that in a conversation he had at some point, but I also knew that intuitively because of the hip-hop artists I liked who rapped fast. You know, they're not trying to make somethin"}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 49, "text": "Well, Lin-Manuel Miranda, it's just been wonderful to talk with you. I thoroughly enjoyed it. Thank you so very much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you will observe that \"Hamilton\" is not in any of the fast rapping that happens on stage, right? It's - George Washington goes, Hamilton, and then Jefferson is the one who goes, so he knows what"}
{"id": "790798484", "date": "2019-12-27", "guest": "Lin-Manuel Miranda", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: 'Hamilton' Creator Lin-Manuel Miranda", "question_index": 50, "text": "Lin-Manuel Miranda is the creator and original star of the hit musical \"Hamilton.\" Terry Gross interviewed him in 2017. Next up, we'll hear from the writers of \"The Book Of Mormon,\" another hit musical of the decade, as our staff picks of favorite interviews from the decade continues. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Likewise. The joy is mine."}
{"id": "790819915", "date": "2019-12-30", "guest": "David Carr", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Columnist David Carr", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're going to continue our end-of-the-decade series featuring staff picks of the decade with my 2011 interview with journalist David Carr. He died in 2015 of complications from lung cancer. Carr investigated the business side of journalism, analyzed new developments in media and wrote a media column for The New York Times. I'm one of the people who still misses his Monday column. In 2008, he wrote a memoir about his addiction and recovery called \"The Night Of The Gun.\" He was the breakout character in the documentary \"Page One,\" which followed the Times media desk during a tumultuous year. I spoke with Carr in 2011 when the documentary was released.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "790819915", "date": "2019-12-30", "guest": "David Carr", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Columnist David Carr", "question_index": 1, "text": "David Carr, welcome to FRESH AIR. Your journalism is changing because it's on different platforms. When one of your articles is in the New York Times online, if there's any mistakes that were made in the article, those mistakes are corrected at the bottom of the article. It used to be that corrections were kind of buried in, like, page two or something. Nobody ever saw them. So your mistakes, your errors weren't, like, following you around. But they are now. What's that experience like of having the mistakes corrected at the bottom of the article?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "790819915", "date": "2019-12-30", "guest": "David Carr", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Columnist David Carr", "question_index": 2, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I have to tell you, when I got to the New York Times, which was about 10 years ago, I was paralyzed by the idea that my reporting lacked the professionalism and efficacy required to be in Th"}
{"id": "790819915", "date": "2019-12-30", "guest": "David Carr", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Columnist David Carr", "question_index": 3, "text": "At the beginning of the film, at the beginning of the documentary \"Page One,\" you're on the phone with a source, and you're saying to your source, I see this as a big story. I could probably get significant space. What do you think the story is that I should tell? I thought that was such a really interesting way of putting it. Do you say that a lot to sources - what's the story you think I should tell?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "At least on the Web, you can amend. You know, the ethic of the Web is to say what you know as quickly as you can and then reiterate over and over again. The Web is kind of a self-cleaning oven, and wh"}
{"id": "790819915", "date": "2019-12-30", "guest": "David Carr", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Columnist David Carr", "question_index": 4, "text": "And do you use that question especially when you know there's going to be conflicting points of view on a story, and you're talking to representatives of those different points of view?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a funny thing because it - that's experience that came off - I wrote a book a couple of years ago, and I did significant press at the time, and there were two kinds of interviewers. There were on"}
{"id": "790819915", "date": "2019-12-30", "guest": "David Carr", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Columnist David Carr", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I strive for congruence. And by that, I mean there's an interview near the end of the movie with officials at the Tribune Company. It's far less friendly. It's far more declarative. And I'm tell"}
{"id": "790819915", "date": "2019-12-30", "guest": "David Carr", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Columnist David Carr", "question_index": 6, "text": "At the beginning of this week?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I worked at a weekly with a lot of young reporters, and I would hear them pouring on the honey on the phone and being real sweet and nice with the people that they talked to. And then they would turn "}
{"id": "790819915", "date": "2019-12-30", "guest": "David Carr", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Columnist David Carr", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yeah, you had a story that was headlined \"Why Not Occupy Newsrooms?\" And you were basically asking, how come there isn't an occupy movement in newspapers? Because newspaper executives are guilty of some of the same things that bank executives are. Make the analogy for us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I wrote about bonuses..."}
{"id": "790819915", "date": "2019-12-30", "guest": "David Carr", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Columnist David Carr", "question_index": 8, "text": "So what was different in terms of how you handled this article and how you typically handle articles that are investigative or critical of the organization that you're writing about or the company you're writing about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in the instance of Gannett - Gannett is a publicly held company that owns 82 newspapers across America, in towns big and small, dailies and weeklies. And in the past six years, they've gone from"}
{"id": "790819915", "date": "2019-12-30", "guest": "David Carr", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Columnist David Carr", "question_index": 9, "text": "We're listening to my 2011 interview with journalist David Carr, who was a media reporter and columnist for The New York Times. We'll hear more of the interview after a break as our end-of-the-decade series continues. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had done a story a few months ago about Gannett's bonuses, and I spent four days trying to get the company to comment on what they did. And on Sunday night, just before deadline, they said, we"}
{"id": "790819915", "date": "2019-12-30", "guest": "David Carr", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Columnist David Carr", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. This week, we're featuring some of our staff's favorite interviews from the decade. Let's get back to my 2011 interview with David Carr, who was a media reporter and columnist for The New York Times.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had done a story a few months ago about Gannett's bonuses, and I spent four days trying to get the company to comment on what they did. And on Sunday night, just before deadline, they said, we"}
{"id": "790819915", "date": "2019-12-30", "guest": "David Carr", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Columnist David Carr", "question_index": 11, "text": "A few years ago, you wrote a very personal memoir about being addicted and recovering from the addictions. And the addictions were coke and crack, and you had alcohol problems, too. The book is called \"Night Of The Gun.\" And, you know, I'm just wondering, like, did The New York Times - when you got your job after you were clean, after you were sober and you got your job with the New York Times, how much did they know about the addiction part of your past? I mean, it's not the kind of thing you put on your resume.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had done a story a few months ago about Gannett's bonuses, and I spent four days trying to get the company to comment on what they did. And on Sunday night, just before deadline, they said, we"}
{"id": "790819915", "date": "2019-12-30", "guest": "David Carr", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Columnist David Carr", "question_index": 12, "text": "But did you talk to them about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had done a story a few months ago about Gannett's bonuses, and I spent four days trying to get the company to comment on what they did. And on Sunday night, just before deadline, they said, we"}
{"id": "790819915", "date": "2019-12-30", "guest": "David Carr", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Columnist David Carr", "question_index": 13, "text": "Did you really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I did..."}
{"id": "790819915", "date": "2019-12-30", "guest": "David Carr", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Columnist David Carr", "question_index": 14, "text": "But getting back to them hiring you, you know, before the book existed. They were okay with it? Like, you told them your story, and they had faith that you would remain sober and do a good job.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...In terms of, like, my communication to them. I mean, part of - I didn't want there to be any surprises about sort of who I am and what I've done. But what I tried to emphasize is, you know, I was a"}
{"id": "790819915", "date": "2019-12-30", "guest": "David Carr", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Columnist David Carr", "question_index": 15, "text": "So this question is probably way too personal. So just...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's not something that we committed to directly. I mean, I didn't, in fact, remain sober. So - and I don't think that that's part of the contract. I did try drinking again. It didn't go very we"}
{"id": "790819915", "date": "2019-12-30", "guest": "David Carr", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Columnist David Carr", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, just tell me if it is because I don't want to be intrusive. For a lot of people who are giving up an addiction, they're encouraged to, like, find a higher power that they can, you know, turn to and believe in, whether it's religion or something else that will function in that way. Was there such a thing for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I bet not."}
{"id": "790819915", "date": "2019-12-30", "guest": "David Carr", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Columnist David Carr", "question_index": 17, "text": "So you've found something godly, but there isn't a theology that you're following.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's funny you should mention that because I'm in the middle of sort of a struggle with that. And it's not that - I am a churchgoing Catholic, and I do that as a matter of - it's good to sta"}
{"id": "790819915", "date": "2019-12-30", "guest": "David Carr", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Columnist David Carr", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I've been watching sort of this debate over Mormonism that's gone on because of the folks that are running for president, people making fun of their theology. And then I think, well, I'm a pract"}
{"id": "790819915", "date": "2019-12-30", "guest": "David Carr", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Columnist David Carr", "question_index": 19, "text": "Well, David Carr, it's really been great to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I - you know, whether it's the kind of underwear people where or the hats they wear on their head or the turbans or whatever, again, I make no judgment. I find comfort in those traditions."}
{"id": "790819915", "date": "2019-12-30", "guest": "David Carr", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Columnist David Carr", "question_index": 20, "text": "David Carr recorded in 2011. He died of complications from lung cancer in 2015. Our series of FRESH AIR favorite interviews from the decade will continue tomorrow. After a short break, our linguist, Geoff Nunberg, will choose his word of the year. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a pleasure to speak with you, Terry."}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 0, "text": "On this final day of the decade, we're continuing our series featuring some favorite interviews of the decade as selected by our staff. We start today with an interview from this year - Howard Stern. I spoke with him last May after the publication of his book, \"Howard Stern Comes Again,\" collecting some of his favorite interviews. He's become a really good interviewer. At the age of 65, he says he's changed over the years and has moved away from some of the crude sex talk and sexism of his earlier years and has been emphasizing empathy over outrageousness in his interviews. But he admits his show still contains a fair amount of what he calls second-grade humor. His show became nationally syndicated in 1986 and moved to Sirius Satellite Radio in 2006. Here's our interview.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 1, "text": "Howard Stern, welcome to FRESH AIR. I am so excited this is happening. You know, like, some of our listeners - I think just a few - but some of our listeners are outraged that Howard Stern's going to be on our show. And some of your listeners probably think - public radio's so incredibly boring; why are you wasting your time on public radio?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 2, "text": "A lot of our listeners are, too. I just know some of them are like, what?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I actually got a really great reaction when I said on my show that I'm coming on the Terry Gross show. Everyone was like, oh, she's the best interviewer in the world. To hear you two guys together"}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 3, "text": "But...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I actually got a really great reaction when I said on my show that I'm coming on the Terry Gross show. Everyone was like, oh, she's the best interviewer in the world. To hear you two guys together"}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 4, "text": "For those of us...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, well..."}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 5, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Can I tell you one thing? This..."}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Morning..."}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I woke up."}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 8, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I said to my wife, I'm going on the Terry Gross show. I'm going to go learn about her. And the first thing I learned was that you had written a book."}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so - yeah - so I went on my Kindle account, you know? And here you have written a book on interviewing, which is why I'm here talking to you. And I went - oh, wow, I should have read this."}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I - on my Kindle, you get a little chapter for free. You know?"}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I began reading it. And the first thing, like, literally that you wrote is, hey, when I was writing a book about interviews, I didn't know if they'd be good to read because, you know, people have h"}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 12, "text": "It's funny 'cause I was thinking, like, is Howard going to give long answers? And I thought, no. I mean, Howard knows what good radio is, so he's not going to go on too long. He knows exactly what timing is. So listen. I'm in a studio in Philadelphia. You're in a studio in New York.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And when she cuts me off, my ego is going to be destroyed 'cause I think I'm a pretty good broadcaster. But I don't know if I'm a good interview. So you know, I'm..."}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 13, "text": "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I usually don't get to see my guests 'cause they're not in Philly, so we just connect via high-tech stuff. But...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't know if you admitted that or not, so I didn't bring it up."}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 14, "text": "Oh, I'm surprised to hear that because - well, let me describe your set a little bit or maybe ask you to describe it. I mean, you're on a desk that almost looks like a barricade", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I was shocked. In your book - the little part I read today, you said you like that. And I would dread that. That would be the worst thing in the world not to look someone in the eye while I'm inte"}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 15, "text": ". Like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I was shocked. In your book - the little part I read today, you said you like that. And I would dread that. That would be the worst thing in the world not to look someone in the eye while I'm inte"}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 16, "text": "You're in this big desk that has this - like, big, like, almost half-oval rim around it that really looks like you're barricaded in. And then your guest is, like, a bunch of feet away from you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 17, "text": "...On a couch. And it's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 18, "text": "...A pretty big distance. Like, it's not a distance you would typically sit from someone. You'd sit much closer if you were having a conversation that wasn't on the radio, if you were just talking to each other in a room. Why do you have the barricade and the distance from your guest?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 19, "text": "So anyways, a question for you - your interviewing approach has changed over the years. It's - you go deeper. You have more empathy. And you've said when you think of the interviews you did during the first couple of decades on your show that you cringe. You say, I was an absolute maniac. My narcissism was so strong, I was incapable of appreciating what somebody else might be feeling. In your introduction to your interview with Gwyneth Paltrow in your book, you write, that on terrestrial radio, my interviewing technique was like bashing someone in the face with a sledgehammer. I treated my guests as props. All I wanted was to cause chaos. And you've said that, you know, therapy was a turning point for you. You started therapy - what? - 20 years ago.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wow. That is really interesting that you say that, and I hadn't really considered it. Part of it is that I work my own equipment. And I say this in my book - that if anyone is serious about radio, tha"}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 20, "text": "Is it too personal to ask you what the therapy approach is that you use?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 21, "text": "Yeah, yeah, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not personal at all. I'm happy to talk about it. And I hope something that comes out of this book - that people aren't afraid of therapy. I think it is the most useful tool in the world. And I tal"}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I need to look the person in the eye. And I think it's my own insecurity. I'm afraid they'd fall asleep on me..."}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 23, "text": "So what kind of analysis is it? How does it work?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Or they weren't really paying attention. I really - I have a lot of issues. I didn't go there thinking that it would affect my radio show so much. I went there because, you know, I wanted to examin"}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 24, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what was so profound for me and why I signed on - I sat there with the psychoanalyst, the psychiatrist. And I said, oh, I guess I'll tell you about myself. And I started to go into a fabulous ro"}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 25, "text": "Was that hard for you - to not make it about you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was like, man. I'd go like, this guy wants me to talk. What does he mean he doesn't want me to be funny? I'm funny. You know, as I was going through therapy, I was also making a transition from terr"}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 26, "text": "So I have to ask you about this. So much of your show over the years, especially earlier in your career, has been about sex in ways that have been interesting and enlightening and ways that seemed really kind of gross or intrusive or, you know, just sexist. So I want to ask you just a couple of things about that. So you told Jonah Hill in an interview that you envied young men who can have women as friends and not just want to have sex with them. And you said that's something you had to learn later in life. So how much later", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God. The inner child - you know, look. The reason I - you quoted my book. The reason that this was so difficult - when I was on commercial radio, I couldn't allow a guest to even say five words"}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 27, "text": "and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God. The inner child - you know, look. The reason I - you quoted my book. The reason that this was so difficult - when I was on commercial radio, I couldn't allow a guest to even say five words"}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 28, "text": "Robin.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A lot later. You know - I mean, I always had friends - women friends - growing up, but it wasn't by choice. Nobody wanted to have sex with me. But no, I really did have friendships with women, and som"}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 29, "text": "OK. So I really like the idea of celebrating sex. The part I didn't like about your show was talking about the size of women's breasts and how much you'd like to have sex with them and rating women 1 to 10...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In fact - well, Robin, for sure; Fran Shea of the E! Network, who gave me my first interview show; Denise Oliver, who was my program director who put Robin and I together. And yet there's this - as yo"}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 30, "text": "...Or asking guests to. And you had such a large following of young men. And I'm specifically referring here to the '90s, the early aughts.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 31, "text": "And it's like you were teaching young men how to leer at women and be really crude and judge women according to their breast size. And that always really troubled me. And I know you cringe about a lot of things when you look back at your early career. Do you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 32, "text": "...Cringe about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 33, "text": "Yeah, but I felt like you were going, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I do. But, you know, in one sense, I could get defensive and tell you that we would also do this to men. It wasn't just - it was a show that was super judgmental and, you know, again, unleashed "}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 34, "text": "...I'm a - you know, this is how - if you want to be cool, if you want to be like Howard Stern, this is...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And..."}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 35, "text": "...How you treat women.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 36, "text": "This is how you talk to women. And that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is how you behave. Yeah."}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 37, "text": "I found that really upsetting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 38, "text": "I want to play an example of how you draw on your life for your interviews. So what we've just been talking about, your mother's depression, her need to be cheered up - this comes into play in one of my favorite moments of your interviews, and this is with Stephen Colbert from 2015. And you're talking to him about how he lost his father and two of his siblings, two brothers, in a plane crash. And I forget how old he was - 9 maybe? I forget his age.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think I had the wherewithal to really analyze it. I just was doing my thing. And then, you know, as I got older and wiser, I started to look at that. And I said, well, it troubles me. That's n"}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 39, "text": "And so you're asking him about that and what it was like for his mother. So I just want to play a short excerpt of that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, something like that. Yeah."}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 40, "text": "I just love hearing how stunned Colbert is when you ask him about, you know, having to cheer up his mother, and if it's hard for him to see women cry because his mother had cried so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it certainly makes for a career. But I mean..."}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 41, "text": "Exactly, exactly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I love that moment. I'm so glad you pulled it because I'm proud of that moment. Because only someone who had to cheer up a mother would know to ask that question."}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 42, "text": "Well, I'm going to let you go 'cause I know you got to go. It's been...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, you know, again, I've explored the fact that this is a terrible burden on a kid, to have to cheer up a mother. I remember doing, you know, very, very elaborate impressions of all the mothers in t"}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 43, "text": "...Really, really wonderful to talk with you. Listen. I want to thank you for staying in radio all of these years and not using radio just as a stepping stone to TV or movies. You've turned down so many offers, and you've stayed in radio. You've done a lot of, like, kind of pioneering work in radio. thank you. As a radio person, thank you for staying in radio...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, a pleasure."}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 44, "text": "...And for acknowledging, like, the greatness of radio.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you for saying that."}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 45, "text": "Yeah. Well, thank...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I love radio. Radio is the best. And that's it. We'll end on that. Radio is great."}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 46, "text": "Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And thank you."}
{"id": "790859106", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Howard Stern", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Howard Stern", "question_index": 47, "text": "Howard Stern recorded last May after the publication of his collection of interviews called \"Howard Stern Comes Again.\" After a break, we'll hear my 2010 interview with Joan Rivers as we continue our series of some favorite interviews of the decade. After Rivers died in 2014, Howard Stern gave her eulogy at the request of her daughter, Melissa. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think you're a terrific interviewer. And thank you for giving me access to your audience, which, you know - like I said, that's a good audience."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's continue our end-of-the-decade series of interviews featuring some favorite interviews of the decade as chosen by our staff. Up next, Joan Rivers - one of the first really successful female comics. Even now after her death, she continues to have a big influence on comedy. Just consider the series \"The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel.\" Rivers broken to comedy in the 1960s. She became a popular guest on \"The Tonight Show,\" then a regular guest host, subbing for Johnny Carson. Her love of fashion and her snarky humor made her a popular host of red carpet shows. The interview we're going to hear was recorded in 2010, after the release of a documentary about her called \"Joan Rivers: A Piece Of Work,\" which was about how driven she was, how she had to keep reinventing herself and how she was determined to keep performing. Four years after our interview, Rivers died at the age of 81. We started our interview with a clip from the documentary.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 1, "text": "And that's Joan Rivers from the new documentary about her, which is called \"Joan Rivers: A Piece Of Work.\" Joan Rivers, welcome to FRESH AIR. And happy birthday. We're recording this on your birthday.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Age - it's the one mountain that you can't overcome. It's a youth society, and nobody wants you. You're too old. You're too old. You're too old. If one more woman comedian comes up and says to me, you"}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 2, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ugh (ph)."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 3, "text": "And you've just turned 77.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much. Yes, we are."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 4, "text": "Ugh - you said ugh because that's how you're feeling about it", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I know. And as I said today..."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I know. And as I said today..."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 6, "text": "So in the clip that we just heard, you talked about how you opened a lot of doors, and you're still opening doors. So what are the - some of the doors that you feel you're still opening?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no. I just don't believe that I am. And people say, what are you going to do on your birthday? I say, I'm 77. I'm going to get my 77th facelift. That's what I'm going to do."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 7, "text": "And some of the doors that you opened earlier in your career - I mean, you were one of the first women comics to really make it, the first woman to host a late night show. And you also had different material. You made jokes about abortion, jokes about sex.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I don't think - I never thought about it till the documentary came out. But I think I'm opening doors not just for women comedians. I never think about women. I think just always trying to push - "}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 8, "text": "You may have been the first famous woman comic to tell vagina jokes", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 10, "text": "So what was it like early on, when you were telling the kind of blue joke that other women weren't saying?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Probably. Yes, I'm sure I did."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 11, "text": "No, wait. Wait. Wait. I'm going to stop you because I thought you said that because no one would say they had an abortion. People were always going away for, like, mysterious - oh, you know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was the first one to discuss abortion, as you just said. And it was very rough, and we show in the film I couldn't even say the word abortion. I had to say, she had 14 appendectomies."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 12, "text": "She needed a vacation or she had to get some minor surgery done.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 13, "text": "She had an appendectomy, exactly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She had - right. She had an appendectomy down in Cuba."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 14, "text": "So anyways...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Everybody went to Cuba to get appendectomies or went to Puerto Rico to get appendectomies."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 15, "text": "So I interrupted your thought there, so continue with what you were saying.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was a big thing."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 16, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. So I was the first one that dared to make jokes about it. And by making jokes about it, you brought it into a position where you can look at it and deal with it. It was no longer something that yo"}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 17, "text": "So what did you have to say about abortion that first time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that's what I still do."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just that my friend had 14 abortions, and she was lucky because she was Jewish. She married, finally, one of the abortion doctors."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 19, "text": "So how did this kind of material go over?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They ended up happy - for her mother - my daughter married a doctor."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 20, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Half the people would laugh, obviously 'cause - and half the people would go, (gasping). I had another joke. I was having an affair with a married professor. And one of the jokes early on in my act is"}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "half the people laughed. But it was..."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You just didn't talk about things like that. It was never discussed. Even discussing that my mother wanted me desperately to get married and had a sign up - it sounds so silly now. She had a sign up -"}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 23, "text": "Has what you think is funny or what you want to talk about on stage changed with age?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And people said, you can't say that. You can't talk about things like that."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 24, "text": "So what can you talk about now that you wouldn't have dared to before?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Good question - changed tremendously with my age because I am so much freer now because I always say, what are you going to do? Are you going to fire me? Been fired. Going to be bankrupt? Been bankrup"}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 25, "text": "Can I just pick up on that and play an excerpt that I found really amazing from the documentary about you? And you're on stage doing comedy in Wisconsin.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I talk about terrorism. I talk about - I was talking about 9/11 on 9/12 and talking about it, making jokes about it and how horrible it was but making people laugh about it at the same time. I tal"}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 26, "text": "And you're making a joke, and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 27, "text": "Thank you", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, northern Wisconsin."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 28, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, northern Wisconsin."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 29, "text": "Oh", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know what I mean? Wisconsin with fir trees."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 30, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know what I mean? Wisconsin with fir trees."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 31, "text": "All right. So anyways - so you're talking about children here, and I'll just let the clip play.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, so northern Wisconsin. Go ahead."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 32, "text": "So that's Joan Rivers in a clip from the new documentary about her, \"Joan Rivers: A Piece Of Work.\" Wow. You really gave it to him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So don't you tell me what's funny."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 33, "text": "By the way, I should say, in case people couldn't hear what he was saying - that's not funny if you have a deaf son.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But first of all, you know..."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 34, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A deaf son."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 35, "text": "What are some of the most painful things that have happened to you that you've ended up making jokes about onstage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But that is funny because you - first of all, where are we going to start? I was doing a thing about noisy children, how I hate noisy children on an airplane. And then I said the only child I would li"}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 36, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, where do you start? My husband's suicide."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 37, "text": "So for you, who want to perform all the time, does life not measure up to performing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Some man, 60 years old, that couldn't take the business and went and killed himself. How do you deal with that? How do you deal with that when you've got a 16-year-old daughter who gets the call, huh?"}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 38, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, life does not measure up to performing. And that's a brilliant question. No. No, performing is perfect. Isn't it a perfect hour? You go on stage. They love you. They want to be there. You want to "}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 39, "text": "Some people who are great performers still get stage fright. Did you ever have that or did you live to be on stage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I get it. It's perfect."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 40, "text": "So that's kind of a paradox to me - that you live to be on stage and, at the same time, there's this dread of being on stage.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I live to be on stage. And I'm terrified - terrified - before every show - terrified to come and sit down here with you; always nervous, always nervous. And I'm a super preparer."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 41, "text": "I'm glad you said that. How did you get them back? Because this was a moment of uncharacteristic anger on stage.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not a dread of being on stage - a dread of not doing well. I've not - I'm disappointing them. I have one friend who's a very good - very, very famous comedian - comic, who once said to me, I give them"}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 42, "text": "So where do you go from there? Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my darling."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 43, "text": "We were talking about your nervousness before going on stage. What's the worst thing that's ever happened to you on stage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You just talking fast. And you start finding, where will they start to relax and laugh again? And it's always like, you know, you start a car - (imitating car turning over). And finally the motor goes"}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 44, "text": "Oh, my God.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The worst thing I've had happen to me on stage - someone had ran forward to tell me they loved me and projectile vomited all over the stage."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 45, "text": "Did it get on you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Clean the stage? And the audience said, let's continue. And I said, no, let's clean the stage."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 46, "text": "Oh, no.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, God. It got on everything. The orchestra was gagging. When somebody starts to vomit, you know, everybody joins in."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 47, "text": "So what happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was awful."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 48, "text": "So what was the bill?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 49, "text": "Oh, gosh. So did you have anything to wear when you took off the dirty clothes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, that was a couple of thousand dollars."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 50, "text": "That's my motto.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. You always have several Mackie gowns in the dressing room."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 51, "text": "So what's the first thing you said when you came back on stage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Have at least three Mackie gowns."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 52, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I probably said, the b**** just lost four pounds. I'm so jealous."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 53, "text": "Now, the film explores, among other things, your relationship with your daughter Melissa when she was young and you were establishing yourself in show business. Did you have a conflict between career and motherhood, which so many women go through now trying to balance the two? But not that many women were going through it when you were 'cause many more women were full-time, you know, mothers and homemakers then.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then we just went on. But it's - you never know what's going to happen in a live show."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 54, "text": "In the movie, I think it's you who says - I'm trying to remember whether you say it or somebody else says it - but I think you say that you were perceived as an advocate for plastic surgery, then the poster girl and then the joke.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You don't know what I sacrificed for my daughter. I mean, Terry, please - a Jewish woman in a khaki dress, not to be believed. No. I think I was as good a working mother as you can possibly be. I was "}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 55, "text": "When did it cross over into joke?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 56, "text": "So why did you talk about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Probably I - when I talked about it too much. I should have been like everybody else and not said a word and deny it, which they all do."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 57, "text": "In the documentary, you say about your late husband Edgar, who had also been your manager and producer, you say, was I madly in love with him? No. Was it a good marriage? Yes. And I guess I was surprised to hear you confess that, that you weren't madly in love with him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I talked about it from the very beginning. But I'm a comedian. So of course you walk on stage and say, I just had my eyes done. And let me tell you, the doctor - blah, blah, blah, blah, blah - and you"}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 58, "text": "Four days later?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's also 20 years. And you could look back. I thought he was wonderful. I thought he was very funny. I thought he was so smart. I just knew he was right for me. I met him. I married him four da"}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 59, "text": "Perfect in what way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was crazy - four days later. He was crazy about me. I just knew he was perfect for me."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 60, "text": "So was he thumpy thumpy over you? Is that what you're saying?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he was. Perfect in every - smart, funny, terrific, got the business, got me, had a great time together, both wanted the same things. We had a great marriage, great marriage. Was I madly in love wi"}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 61, "text": "So I think most people know that, you know, he took his life after...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Oh, he thought I was the cutest chicky (ph) walking around. But he had very bad eyesight."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 62, "text": "Yeah, after - and this was not long - it was like a few months after your late night show which he was producing on Fox was canceled. And apparently the network asked him to leave. You opposed that, and then the whole show got canceled.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Killed himself."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 63, "text": "And you in the movie say that you blame Fox for...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 64, "text": "...His death. But I guess I'm wondering if maybe he wasn't, like, depressed before that and if maybe depression wasn't interfering with his relationship with the network and if it all kind of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Totally."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 65, "text": "In the movie, you say that he left you high and dry and left you with a lot of because he wasn't a good businessman.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If you're tap-dancing, everything is wonderful. And something bad happens, you're not going to kill yourself. But this was the big thing. And he was producing the show. And they said to me, you can sa"}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 66, "text": "So it sounds like you were, you know, horrified that he killed himself, but also angry with him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 67, "text": "Do you feel like it sends a knowing message to the family?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Beyond angry, still am angry. I work very hard for suicide survivors - with suicide survivors, as does Missy, because what it does to you - the anger never leaves you. There's the sadness. There's tha"}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 68, "text": "Right. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It sends a bad message to the family, but it sends a lot of jokes if mommy's a comedian."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 69, "text": "Oh, God. Now, how do you think of something like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I haven't missed a day. And that's how I get through life, Terry."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 70, "text": "Joan Rivers recorded in 2010. She died at the age of 81 in 2014. Tomorrow, we continue our series of favorite interviews from the decade as selected by our staff. We'll feature highlights of three of our shows with musicians that included interviews and performances. We'll hear from the Carolina Chocolate Drops, a band that includes Rhiannon Giddens and plays music in the black string band tradition. Katherine Russell - a great jazz singer who does a lot of early jazz songs. Her father was Louis Armstrong's music director in the '40s. And pianist Jon Batiste, who leads the band on \"The Late Show With Stephen Colbert.\" Great music to start the new year.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because it's so - life is so difficult and so cruel that you better laugh at it because you don't know what's going to hit you next."}
{"id": "792592797", "date": "2019-12-31", "guest": "Joan Rivers", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Joan Rivers", "question_index": 71, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Mooj Zadie, Seth Kelley and Joel Wolfram. I'm Terry Gross. All of us at FRESH AIR wish you a healthy and fulfilling 2020.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because it's so - life is so difficult and so cruel that you better laugh at it because you don't know what's going to hit you next."}
{"id": "792599454", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Carolina Chocolate Drops", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carolina Chocolate Drops", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Happy New Year, and happy new decade. Today we continue our end of the decade series, featuring staff picks from the 2010s or whatever we call that decade. Today, some of our favorite studio concerts that we recorded over the last 10 years. First up is the Carolina Chocolate Drops, a group that follows in the tradition of Black string bands from the 1920s and '30s. They all play a variety of instruments, including fiddle, guitar, banjo and bones. We recorded this interview in 2010 when the Chocolate Drops consisted of Don Flemons, Justin Robinson and Rhiannon Giddens. Only Giddens is still with the Chocolate Drops, and all three have gone on to have solo careers. We started the concert with them performing \"Your Baby Ain't Sweet Like Mine.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "792599454", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Carolina Chocolate Drops", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carolina Chocolate Drops", "question_index": 1, "text": "String bands are usually considered a white Southern tradition, and you're a band of African American musicians. And you've found a black string band tradition that you feel part of, but did you fall in love with this music before you knew that there was a black string band tradition?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, that was a song that I chose. That was a piece that was originally recorded by a fellow named Papa Charlie Jackson, who was a six-string banjo player out of New Orleans. And I just really liked th"}
{"id": "792599454", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Carolina Chocolate Drops", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carolina Chocolate Drops", "question_index": 2, "text": "And did you fall in love with about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "792599454", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Carolina Chocolate Drops", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carolina Chocolate Drops", "question_index": 3, "text": "So discovering this music and falling in love with it without knowing there was an African American tradition, did you feel like maybe you weren't supposed to like it, you know, maybe you would never fit in with it, maybe there wouldn't be a place for you, where people would think you were odd to to gravitate toward the music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I fell in love with the rhythm. I was a contra-dancer and a square-dancer, and I just - I was seduced by the banjo, the rhythm of the claw-hammer banjo. That just really pulled me in. And then -"}
{"id": "792599454", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Carolina Chocolate Drops", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carolina Chocolate Drops", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, definitely the odd thing. That's a definite just because there - any black person who's involved in a folk music scene anywhere knows that they're - it's either they've been just the one of them"}
{"id": "792599454", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Carolina Chocolate Drops", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carolina Chocolate Drops", "question_index": 5, "text": "How come you were playing that kind of music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I was sort of used to it because I was - after I graduated from college, I really got into, like, Scottish music. So I was always getting, you know, so, you know, how come you're playing this ki"}
{"id": "792599454", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Carolina Chocolate Drops", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carolina Chocolate Drops", "question_index": 6, "text": "Mmm hmm. Mmm hmm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I just liked it."}
{"id": "792599454", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Carolina Chocolate Drops", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carolina Chocolate Drops", "question_index": 7, "text": "Well, you were already used to not being cool, too, because, I mean, you sang opera before doing...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, there's really nothing more to it than that."}
{"id": "792599454", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Carolina Chocolate Drops", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carolina Chocolate Drops", "question_index": 8, "text": "That's a pretty quick way to not be cool, yeah,", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, there's really nothing more to it than that."}
{"id": "792599454", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Carolina Chocolate Drops", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carolina Chocolate Drops", "question_index": 9, "text": "Part of the tricky aspect of string band music is that part of its roots are in minstrel shows, part of its roots are in blackface. And so it gets really kind of complicated when you go back to the early history of that music. So I wonder how - what it was - what it's been like for you to negotiate that aspect of the music and to deal with separating the music itself from some of the stereotypes that were foisted on the musicians who played.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's true. That's true."}
{"id": "792599454", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Carolina Chocolate Drops", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carolina Chocolate Drops", "question_index": 10, "text": "Now, Dom, among the instruments you play are four-string banjo, bones and jug. Do you actually use, like, animal bones? Or are they...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that's been - I think that's been something in the African American community that's been - it's not something that we've done very much of, is looking back, you know? It's really been a forward p"}
{"id": "792599454", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Carolina Chocolate Drops", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carolina Chocolate Drops", "question_index": 11, "text": "Get out the cow bones for us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. In one hand, I do have cow bones. And in my other hand, I carry wood bones. But that's just a - that's a sound thing."}
{"id": "792599454", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Carolina Chocolate Drops", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carolina Chocolate Drops", "question_index": 12, "text": "Are cows like - do cows have the best bones for percussion?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right. Cow bones are set. (Playing cow bones)."}
{"id": "792599454", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Carolina Chocolate Drops", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carolina Chocolate Drops", "question_index": 13, "text": "Oh, gosh. The anthill is so - to eat off the meat?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they have big bones. And those are - that makes for the best - like, you know, you can't use the little ribs that you see in, you know, your, you know, the smaller pork ribs in the barbecue shac"}
{"id": "792599454", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Carolina Chocolate Drops", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carolina Chocolate Drops", "question_index": 14, "text": "I'd like to ask you to perform another song, and the song is \"Trouble In Your Mind.\" So before you play it for us, tell us why you chose it and what you love about the song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, because that's what - I mean, you got to remember when you got these, you got these gigantic bones that have all the meat and the fat on it. And you got to get all that off. And the two wa"}
{"id": "792599454", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Carolina Chocolate Drops", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carolina Chocolate Drops", "question_index": 15, "text": "OK. Let's hear it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this is one that Justin was playing that I reminded him one day at a jam that he played it. And it's a piece from an album called \"Music From The Lost Provinces\" put out by Old Hat Records. And "}
{"id": "792599454", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Carolina Chocolate Drops", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Carolina Chocolate Drops", "question_index": 16, "text": "That was the Carolina Chocolate Drops doing \"Trouble In Your Mind\" recorded in 2010 on FRESH AIR. If you enjoyed that, we also have solo performances and interviews with Dom Flemons and Rhiannon Giddens which you can find on our new FRESH AIR archive site. That's at freshairarchive.org.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I wished I had a nickel. I wished I had a dime. I wish I had me a pretty girl. You know I'd call her mine. Don't get in trouble in your mind. Don't get in trouble in your mind. Don't get in "}
{"id": "792601770", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Catherine Russell", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today we're listening back to some of our favorite live concerts from the past decade. Next, we have a performance by a singer who I consider one of the best jazz and blues singers around, Catherine Russell. A lot of the material she does dates back to the 1930s and '40s. Her father, Luis Russell, was a pianist, composer and arranger and worked as Louis Armstrong's music director in the mid-'40s. Her mother, Carline Ray, performed with the all-woman's band The International Sweethearts of Rhythm. Catherine Russell came to our studio in 2012, when she released her album \"Strictly Romancin'.\" She was accompanied by guitarist Matt Munisteri. They started with the song \"Under The Spell Of The Blues,\" which was an early hit for Ella Fitzgerald when she was with the Chick Webb orchestra.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "792601770", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Catherine Russell", "question_index": 1, "text": "That's fabulous. Thank you so much for performing that. That's Catherine Russell singing in our studio, accompanied by Matt Munisteri on guitar. Thank you so much. That's so - I love your voice so much. I love a lot of early jazz and pop. And one of the things I love about your work is that you love that music and you bring it to life in such a beautiful and committed way", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I turn my head to the sky when you pass by, but I want to cry because my heart is under the spell of the blues. For I go around acting gay, say it's OK, pretending each day. But I'm alone an"}
{"id": "792601770", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Catherine Russell", "question_index": 2, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I turn my head to the sky when you pass by, but I want to cry because my heart is under the spell of the blues. For I go around acting gay, say it's OK, pretending each day. But I'm alone an"}
{"id": "792601770", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Catherine Russell", "question_index": 3, "text": "And you know the language of it. I mean, I think a lot of singers don't have the right rhythm when they sing old songs because they grew up with rock, and they just don't feel a jazz rhythm. But you grew up with jazz.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "792601770", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Catherine Russell", "question_index": 4, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I grew up with jazz, but I grew up with rock, too."}
{"id": "792601770", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Catherine Russell", "question_index": 5, "text": "On WNEW in New York. Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I grew up with blues. I grew up with classical. My mother had an old radio in the kitchen when I was growing up, and we used to listen to William B. Williams' \"Make Believe Ballroom.\""}
{"id": "792601770", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Catherine Russell", "question_index": 6, "text": "Now, I grew up with that radio station, too, because my parents listened to it, and I hated it then.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "792601770", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Catherine Russell", "question_index": 7, "text": "I hated it because I wanted to hear rock 'n' roll.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Aw."}
{"id": "792601770", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Catherine Russell", "question_index": 8, "text": "But you grew up with parents who were jazz performers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "792601770", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Catherine Russell", "question_index": 9, "text": "You know, your father, the late Luis Russell, was Louis Armstrong's music director for a while. Your mother sang with the International Sweethearts of Rhythm during World War II...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "792601770", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Catherine Russell", "question_index": 10, "text": "...Which was an all-woman jazz band. And so did the fact that they loved the music bring the music alive for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "792601770", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Catherine Russell", "question_index": 11, "text": "Were they determined to get you to love the music? Did they play you things and hope that you would love it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. My dad's music was some of the first music I ever heard in the house growing up, and my mother was so happy that I kind of took to it, you know, when I was very little because I liked to dance, a"}
{"id": "792601770", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Catherine Russell", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. They - you know, Mom played a lot of different things. So she's happy that I did, but she also let me listen to things that she didn't particularly like. I grew up on \"American Bandstand.\" So if t"}
{"id": "792601770", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Catherine Russell", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well, I'm going to ask you to perform another song, and this song is called \"Wake Up And Live.\" And I love this song. I was not familiar with it until you sang it. Tell us why you chose it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She let me, you know - so she, you know, got me a little stereo. And I had it - you know, the kind that you pick up. And I had that in my room when I was growing up, and she never said, turn that down"}
{"id": "792601770", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Catherine Russell", "question_index": 14, "text": "And I should mention that Mack Gordon, the lyricist for this song, also wrote the lyrics for \"Chattanooga Choo Choo,\" \"I Had The Craziest Dream,\" \"The More I See You\" and \"There Will Never Be Another You.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is another song that I actually heard when I was growing up. I remember this - it's written by Mack Gordon and Harry Revel. And I hope I'm pronouncing that correctly. I remember that from the rad"}
{"id": "792601770", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Catherine Russell", "question_index": 15, "text": "And Harry Revel wrote \"There's A Lull In My Life,\" which is a great song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "792601770", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Catherine Russell", "question_index": 16, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "792601770", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Catherine Russell", "question_index": 17, "text": "So let's hear it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Beautiful."}
{"id": "792601770", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Catherine Russell", "question_index": 18, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let's do it."}
{"id": "792601770", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Catherine Russell", "question_index": 19, "text": "Yeah, that was great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Wake up and live, don't mind the rainy patter, and you will find it's mind over matter. Dark clouds will break up if you just wake up and live. Yeah, wake up and live, show the stuff you're "}
{"id": "792601770", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Catherine Russell", "question_index": 20, "text": "Thank you both so much. That's Catherine Russell singing with Matt Munisteri featured on guitar. So let's talk about your first regular gig in New York. I should mention, you were a backup singer before you became a soloist.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Wake up and live, don't mind the rainy patter, and you will find it's mind over matter. Dark clouds will break up if you just wake up and live. Yeah, wake up and live, show the stuff you're "}
{"id": "792601770", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Catherine Russell", "question_index": 21, "text": "But one of one of your first regular jobs - maybe your first regular job - was at Catch a Rising Star, a comedy club in New York, where you sang when the checks were being given out...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For many years, yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "792601770", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Catherine Russell", "question_index": 22, "text": "...When it was really noisy and when there was, like, a famous comedian testing out a new routine. Nobody - none of the other comics would want to follow them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "792601770", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Catherine Russell", "question_index": 23, "text": "So you would kind of sing right in between to break it up a bit.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wanted to follow him, yes."}
{"id": "792601770", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Catherine Russell", "question_index": 24, "text": "So it wasn't necessarily going to be your crowd because they're a crowd who came to see comedy, not music. What songs won over for that crowd?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "792601770", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Catherine Russell", "question_index": 25, "text": "Catherine Russell and Matt Munisteri, recorded in 2012. Russell released a new album in 2019 called \"Alone Together\" on which Munisteri also plays guitar and serves as music director. Coming up, we feature our performance and interview with pianist Jon Batiste, the bandleader for \"The Late Show With Stephen Colbert.\" But before we get to that, let's get in one more song from Russell and Munisteri's FRESH AIR performance. This is \"Everything's Been Done Before.\" Louis Armstrong recorded this when Catherine Russell's father, Luis Russell, was Armstrong's music director.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "792601770", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Catherine Russell", "question_index": 26, "text": "That's Catherine Russell and Matt Munisteri.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Everything's been done before. To share a kiss, a moment's bliss and hear you whisper you love me, sweetheart, it's thrills as old as the hills, but it's new to me. Oh, everything's been don"}
{"id": "792603242", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bandleader Jon Batiste", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. This week we're looking back on the decade that just ended and listening back to some of our favorite interviews of the past 10 years. Today we're featuring some of our favorite performances. Our final one today is with pianist Jon Batiste, the music director at \"The Late Show With Stephen Colbert,\" where he leads his band Stay Human. Batiste grew up in Kenner, La., just outside of New Orleans, and is part of one of the foremost music families in that region. He started playing with the family band when he was 8. He played drums back then. When he was 17, he moved to New York to attend Juilliard. We recorded this interview in 2018, when Batiste released his album \"Hollywood Africans.\" We started with a track from it, an original called \"Kenner Boogie.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "792603242", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bandleader Jon Batiste", "question_index": 1, "text": "Jon Batiste, welcome to FRESH AIR. I really love your playing. And I'm so grateful to you for being at the piano. So I have to - this is a really corny, dumb question to ask a pianist, I know. But how do you do it? How do - like, on \"Kenner Boogie\" that we just heard, how do you coordinate the left and right hands? They're doing such different things. And what they're doing is so complex.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "792603242", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bandleader Jon Batiste", "question_index": 2, "text": "Can you break down what each hand is doing?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "792603242", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bandleader Jon Batiste", "question_index": 3, "text": "And can you include some of those really, like, rumbly left-hand chords you've got going on there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "792603242", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bandleader Jon Batiste", "question_index": 4, "text": "Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You got to."}
{"id": "792603242", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bandleader Jon Batiste", "question_index": 5, "text": "And some of the left-hand playing that you have going on in that track is really kind of rumbly. Can you do some of the chords that you've included in that composition?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the great thing about piano is that you can create this rhythmic momentum. And it propels you. It's like a drum, but you also have tones. So what I'm doing in my left hand is really creating t"}
{"id": "792603242", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bandleader Jon Batiste", "question_index": 6, "text": "That's what I was talking about", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, sometimes the emotion overwhelms you, and you have to growl. And this is something that I've kind of developed in my left hand that I really love. When I get that feeling, it's like a growl of a"}
{"id": "792603242", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bandleader Jon Batiste", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, sometimes the emotion overwhelms you, and you have to growl. And this is something that I've kind of developed in my left hand that I really love. When I get that feeling, it's like a growl of a"}
{"id": "792603242", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bandleader Jon Batiste", "question_index": 8, "text": "So you grew up in Louisiana near New Orleans in Kenner. What were some of the most common rhythms? And you started as a drummer in your family's band. So what were some of the rhythms that you were taught to play as a drummer that helped guide you in your formative years as a pianist, things that you transferred to piano?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So you know, you put them all together, and you know, it's like a gumbo. You put everything in the pot, and in the moment, you just fly. You know, after you make your 100th vat of gumbo, you get a fee"}
{"id": "792603242", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bandleader Jon Batiste", "question_index": 9, "text": "So do you want to translate that rhythm to something that you do at the piano?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- my cousins. And not only was I learning the bamboula but I was learning it from them, so I had four variations of it. So by the time I started really playing and getting to the piano, I had such a r"}
{"id": "792603242", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bandleader Jon Batiste", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yeah, I love that piece.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there's a piece on the album, \"Nocturne No. 1,\" that has that rhythm."}
{"id": "792603242", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bandleader Jon Batiste", "question_index": 11, "text": "I hear so much Monk in your playing - again, not imitating him but having kind of absorbed him and made it your own. Things I hear you doing that remind me of Monk is your use of dissonance, your use of kind of punctuation, your use of space - of letting things ring out and not filling it - and the kind of angularity of Monk. So can you play something of your own that incorporates the kinds of things we've been talking about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. It's really something that kind of takes that rhythm but also my classical music training and love for the form and development of those sort of theme and variation and kind of matches them up an"}
{"id": "792603242", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bandleader Jon Batiste", "question_index": 12, "text": "Oh, that's great. Do you still listen to a lot of Monk?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely. There's a piece that I recorded twice, and it's titled \"Red Beans,\" and it's a blues. And when you hear the melody, it has that rhyme and also that space and dissonance that's characte"}
{"id": "792603242", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bandleader Jon Batiste", "question_index": 13, "text": "OK. Let's do a little contrast here - some Bach and how that's influenced you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have a few people who I listen to regularly. I always come back to them, I'll say. I don't listen to Monk regularly, but I always come back to his music. Bach is another one - James Brown, Nina Simo"}
{"id": "792603242", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bandleader Jon Batiste", "question_index": 14, "text": "Can you play an example of Bach that you think exemplifies both, like, the spiritual but also the kind of game-like aspect of it in its structure?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- there's so much there. I think that Bach is really a - the mysticism of music, spirituality of music, the depth of how he's able to be so systematic and logical, symmetrical at times - super symmetr"}
{"id": "792603242", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bandleader Jon Batiste", "question_index": 15, "text": "What I sometimes do on the show when I'm talking to a musician who's doing a kind of musical autobiography is to ask them to redeem a song, to take a song that we wouldn't expect them to like that they do or a song that we think of as square, too corny, too sentimental, a song beyond redemption, but that you love. So is there a song like that that comes to mind that you would like to redeem for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my. You know, there's something in the inventions which, I mean, he's just chilling at home. And he's like, it's tough out there in the streets, y'all. So, kids, I'm going to write you these inven"}
{"id": "792603242", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bandleader Jon Batiste", "question_index": 16, "text": "Just the children's song...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I love \"Happy And You Know It.\" I really like that song."}
{"id": "792603242", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bandleader Jon Batiste", "question_index": 17, "text": "...That you're talking about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I like what it represents."}
{"id": "792603242", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bandleader Jon Batiste", "question_index": 18, "text": "You're happy and you know it, clap your hands.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "792603242", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bandleader Jon Batiste", "question_index": 19, "text": "And why do you love this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "792603242", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bandleader Jon Batiste", "question_index": 20, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "it's - at the root of it, it's the same thing, which is why I think children can respond to it in such an intuitive way. This kind of (playing piano). And then (playing piano). And that's it. Oh, I ge"}
{"id": "792603242", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bandleader Jon Batiste", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just bring out some of the emotions of it. And then, when you play (playing piano)."}
{"id": "792603242", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bandleader Jon Batiste", "question_index": 22, "text": "Oh, I like it now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's just a - I don't know. I like it. It's cool."}
{"id": "792603242", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bandleader Jon Batiste", "question_index": 23, "text": "I like what you did with it", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's just a - I don't know. I like it. It's cool."}
{"id": "792603242", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bandleader Jon Batiste", "question_index": 24, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's just a - I don't know. I like it. It's cool."}
{"id": "792603242", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bandleader Jon Batiste", "question_index": 25, "text": "Jon Batiste, you have been so wonderful. I am so grateful to you. Thank you so much. You've been so generous with your music with us and", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like, (singing) if you're happy and you know it, clap your hands. If you're happy and you know it, clap your hands. Oh, if you're happy and you know it, and you really want to show it, go on and show "}
{"id": "792603242", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bandleader Jon Batiste", "question_index": 26, "text": "in general. Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like, (singing) if you're happy and you know it, clap your hands. If you're happy and you know it, clap your hands. Oh, if you're happy and you know it, and you really want to show it, go on and show "}
{"id": "792603242", "date": "2020-01-01", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bandleader Jon Batiste", "question_index": 27, "text": "Jon Batiste, recorded in 2018. Today we featured a few of our favorite concerts we've done over the past decade. If you want to hear more FRESH AIR concerts from the last decade or previous decades it's easy at our new FRESH AIR archive site. You can find it at freshairarchive.org.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here. And till next time."}
{"id": "793037135", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Ta-Nehisi Coates", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Ta-Nehisi Coates", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today we continue our look back on the decade that just ended and play some of our staff's favorite interviews of the decade. Up next - my 2015 interview with Ta-Nehisi Coates, recorded after the publication of his book \"Between The World And Me,\" which became a huge best-seller. It addressed the fears many African American parents have that their sons will become victims of violence. The book is written in the form of a letter to Coates' teenage son. It draws on history as well as personal experience to discuss the different forms of violence young African Americans are especially vulnerable to from all directions - on the street, in school and from the police. Coates was born in 1975 and grew up in West Baltimore, where he says everyone had lost a child somehow - to the streets, to jail, to drugs, to guns. Coates is a former national correspondent for The Atlantic magazine. He won a National Magazine Award and a George Polk Award for his cover story \"The Case For Reparations\" about the long history of what he calls white-imposed black disadvantage. Coates also relaunched the Marvel comic book series \"Black Panther.\" And in 2019, he published his first novel \"The Water Dancer,\" which reimagined the Underground Railroad.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "793037135", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Ta-Nehisi Coates", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Ta-Nehisi Coates", "question_index": 1, "text": "Ta-Nehisi Coates, welcome back to FRESH AIR. You wrote this new book in response to the recent police shootings of African American people - children and adults. The book is addressed to your teenage son. So when you were growing up in West Baltimore, what did the police mean to you when you were your son's age?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "793037135", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Ta-Nehisi Coates", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Ta-Nehisi Coates", "question_index": 2, "text": "Did you ever see the police as possibly protecting you from violent forces within your own neighborhood?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were another force. So there are two sides to this, you know, 'cause I don't want to be too cynical here. I, you know, am an American, and so I did understand them as representing, you know, some"}
{"id": "793037135", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Ta-Nehisi Coates", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Ta-Nehisi Coates", "question_index": 3, "text": "You had a college friend - you went to Howard University - a man named Prince Carmen Jones, who was shot and killed by a policeman. The policeman said it was in self-defense after Jones tried to run him over in his Jeep. And you and everyone who knew Prince Jones didn't believe that story. You write about this in your book. Tell us a little bit about him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's the interesting thing. I saw many, you know, of my friends who would be labeled as criminals in the same way. The question, you know, for me was, when do you call what? You know what I mean? So"}
{"id": "793037135", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Ta-Nehisi Coates", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Ta-Nehisi Coates", "question_index": 4, "text": "Was this ever investigated?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I went to college with Prince Jones. It's very funny because when you write, it becomes sort of abstract for a while. And then when people ask you about it, suddenly it becomes real again. I went to c"}
{"id": "793037135", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Ta-Nehisi Coates", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Ta-Nehisi Coates", "question_index": 5, "text": "We've been talking about fear of the police and anger at the police. But part of your book is how you lived in fear when you were your son's age - when you were a teenager - when you left the house 'cause there was a lot of violence in the neighborhood. And you say basically everyone in your neighborhood seemed to be reacting out of fear. You were afraid of other kids. You were afraid of your father's beatings. You write - (reading) when I was about your age, each day fully one-third of my brain was concerned with who I was walking to school with, our precise number, the manner of our walk, the number of times I smiled, who or what I smiled at, who offered a pound and who did not. So I guess I'm interested in, what were some of the behaviors you had to learn to protect yourself, just, like, walking to school, walking home from school, going to visit a friend?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it was. Nothing came of it. It was investigated by the prosecutor's office out in Fairfax, Va., I believe. There was an internal investigation by the Prince George's County Police Department. The"}
{"id": "793037135", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Ta-Nehisi Coates", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Ta-Nehisi Coates", "question_index": 6, "text": "I was going to ask you about that 'cause you refer to that in your new book. And I don't feel like I understand why that happened. Like, what did you say or do that was so...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It's a laundry list. You know, I can remember having - you know, like lunchtime - you know, you might have a problem with somebody, or somebody might have a problem with you. So you say, well, I'm n"}
{"id": "793037135", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Ta-Nehisi Coates", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Ta-Nehisi Coates", "question_index": 7, "text": "By doing what?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I felt like he disrespected me. It was the same - you know..."}
{"id": "793037135", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Ta-Nehisi Coates", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Ta-Nehisi Coates", "question_index": 8, "text": "But that is what teachers do sometimes", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He yelled at me in front of the class, like, really, really loudly. And again, I mean, this was the sort of thing that, you know, you couldn't tolerate."}
{"id": "793037135", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Ta-Nehisi Coates", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Ta-Nehisi Coates", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He yelled at me in front of the class, like, really, really loudly. And again, I mean, this was the sort of thing that, you know, you couldn't tolerate."}
{"id": "793037135", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Ta-Nehisi Coates", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Ta-Nehisi Coates", "question_index": 10, "text": "No, I get it. I get it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know. I know. But see, it sounds like you're laughing because, like, it's funny if you've never been in the environment..."}
{"id": "793037135", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Ta-Nehisi Coates", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Ta-Nehisi Coates", "question_index": 11, "text": "So you threaten the teacher, and then you're arrested. Like, what - how did that - what did you say? And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And all you have is your dignity. That's all you have. I mean, you know, teachers yell loudly at kids from time to time. You're exactly right. But if you live in an environment - you know, if you'r"}
{"id": "793037135", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Ta-Nehisi Coates", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Ta-Nehisi Coates", "question_index": 12, "text": "Wow. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I said something to the fact that, you know, if you say something like that to me again I'm going to knock you out. It was something - but it was a physical threat."}
{"id": "793037135", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Ta-Nehisi Coates", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Ta-Nehisi Coates", "question_index": 13, "text": "So who called the police - the teacher or the principal?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I - and in that moment, I was not like - it was not idle either. I was very angry. I was really angry."}
{"id": "793037135", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Ta-Nehisi Coates", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Ta-Nehisi Coates", "question_index": 14, "text": "Oh, school police. OK, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He did. We had school police. We had school police."}
{"id": "793037135", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Ta-Nehisi Coates", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Ta-Nehisi Coates", "question_index": 15, "text": "We're listening to my 2015 interview with Ta-Nehisi Coates, recorded after the publication of his best-selling book \"Between The World And Me.\" We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he called the police. The teacher called the police. Police came. And I probably - as I recall it, I got into some sort of verbal thing with the police, too. The police handcuffed me and took me"}
{"id": "793037135", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Ta-Nehisi Coates", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Ta-Nehisi Coates", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's continue our series of interviews from the decade that just ended and hear more of the interview I recorded in 2015 with Ta-Nehisi Coates after the publication of his book \"Between The World And Me.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he called the police. The teacher called the police. Police came. And I probably - as I recall it, I got into some sort of verbal thing with the police, too. The police handcuffed me and took me"}
{"id": "793037135", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Ta-Nehisi Coates", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Ta-Nehisi Coates", "question_index": 17, "text": "Your son is named Samori.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he called the police. The teacher called the police. Police came. And I probably - as I recall it, I got into some sort of verbal thing with the police, too. The police handcuffed me and took me"}
{"id": "793037135", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Ta-Nehisi Coates", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Ta-Nehisi Coates", "question_index": 18, "text": "And tell us who you named him after and how your name guided you - or didn't guide you - in deciding how to name your son.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Samori, yes."}
{"id": "793037135", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Ta-Nehisi Coates", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Ta-Nehisi Coates", "question_index": 19, "text": "Your piece on reparations, which was a cover story for The Atlantic a year ago and won a bunch of awards - among other things, it documented government housing regulations and private housing covenants that prevented African American people from moving into certain buildings or into certain neighborhoods. It forced many African Americans to buy overpriced homes in ghettoized neighborhoods - is, what you describe, the history of white-imposed disadvantage. Do you see that in your neighborhood - in the neighborhood you grew up in in Baltimore - and do you think the fact that were raised in that neighborhood had anything to do with the kind of government-imposed...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "people to be able to pronounce his name. That was really, really important to me. I wanted, you know, people to be able to read it and basically be able to say it. Samori is named for Samori Ture, who"}
{"id": "793037135", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Ta-Nehisi Coates", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Ta-Nehisi Coates", "question_index": 20, "text": "...Restrictions...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "793037135", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Ta-Nehisi Coates", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Ta-Nehisi Coates", "question_index": 21, "text": "...And private covenants (ph) that you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "793037135", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Ta-Nehisi Coates", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Ta-Nehisi Coates", "question_index": 22, "text": "...Later wrote about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "793037135", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Ta-Nehisi Coates", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Ta-Nehisi Coates", "question_index": 23, "text": "My impression of you is that you've tried to channel the kind of anger that you do feel - having studied systemic racism in the U.S., you've tried to channel that into explanation - you know, into investigation and explanation. How did this happen? What are the lasting, continuing consequences? And how do we talk about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. It's not even theory. I mean, it's just - there is a great book - I believe it's called \"Not In My Neighborhood\" - about redlining in Baltimore. Yes. Yes, yes. I mean, I - you know, you can - any"}
{"id": "793037135", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Ta-Nehisi Coates", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Ta-Nehisi Coates", "question_index": 24, "text": "Relief?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. That gets me as close to peace - yes, yes, yes. And it's mostly - you know, quite frankly, Terry, it's selfish. I mean, it's mostly explanation for myself. If I can make it comprehensible, if I"}
{"id": "793037135", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Ta-Nehisi Coates", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Ta-Nehisi Coates", "question_index": 25, "text": "Right, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "793037135", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Ta-Nehisi Coates", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Ta-Nehisi Coates", "question_index": 26, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "793037135", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Ta-Nehisi Coates", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Ta-Nehisi Coates", "question_index": 27, "text": "Ta-Nehisi Coates, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". You know, I had a mother. I was loved. I had people around me. I was just in a situation. You know? And had any, you know, other human been in a similar situation, it's quite likely that they might "}
{"id": "793037135", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Ta-Nehisi Coates", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Ta-Nehisi Coates", "question_index": 28, "text": "Ta-Nehisi Coates, recorded in 2015 after the publication of his book \"Between The World And Me.\" After a break, we'll continue our series of interviews from the decade that just ended and hear my 2015 interview with Toni Morrison, who influenced many writers, including Ta-Nehisi Coates. She died last year. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much, Terry."}
{"id": "793044006", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Toni Morrison", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. This week, we're playing some of our staff's favorite interviews from the decade that just ended - next, my 2015 interview with Toni Morrison, one of the most celebrated writers of our time. She died last August at the age of 88. Morrison won a Pulitzer Prize for Fiction in 1988 for her novel \"Beloved\" about a former slave looking back on her life after the Civil War. In 1993, Morrison became the first African American woman to win the Nobel Prize for literature. In 2012, President Obama awarded Morrison the nation's highest civilian honor, the Presidential Medal of Freedom. When she died last year, former poet laureate Tracy K. Smith wrote, I know that many of us who devoted our lives to writing were first led to imagine such a thing was possible by Toni Morrison, whose work shed light upon lives - black lives - that we recognized as unmistakably familiar. When we spoke, Morrison had just published her novel \"God Help The Child.\" It begins with the line, it's not my fault. Those words are spoken by an African American woman explaining she has no idea why she gave birth to such a dark-skinned baby. The mother is embarrassed by her daughter's darkness and wants to distance herself. The daughter is scarred by not having her mother's love. The novel is about those childhood wounds that leave a lasting mark even into adulthood.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "793044006", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Toni Morrison", "question_index": 1, "text": "Toni Morrison, welcome back to FRESH AIR. I'd like to start by asking you to do a reading from your new novel. So this is from very early in the novel, where Sweetness, the mother, who is light-skinned African American, is talking about how shocking and upsetting it was to give birth to a daughter with very dark skin - as she describes it, midnight black, Sudanese black. So would you pick up from there with the reading?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "793044006", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Toni Morrison", "question_index": 2, "text": "That's Toni Morrison reading from her new novel \"God Help The Child.\" So the mother distances herself from the daughter because of the daughter's dark skin. The father leaves, thinking this child must not be his because he, too, is lighter-skinned. And that sets the whole story in motion, and I'm wondering why you chose color - you know, the level of blackness - as a central part of the story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. (Reading) I hate to say it, but from the very beginning in the maternity ward, the baby, Lula Ann, embarrassed me. Her birth skin was pale, like all babies, even African ones, but it changed fas"}
{"id": "793044006", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Toni Morrison", "question_index": 3, "text": "So were there times in your life when you've been exposed to that kind of hierarchy of color within the African American community?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I wanted to separate color from race. Distinguishing color - light, black, in-between - as the marker for race is really an error. It's socially constructed, it's culturally enforced, and it has"}
{"id": "793044006", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Toni Morrison", "question_index": 4, "text": "And you went to a traditionally African American college, Howard University.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have. I didn't have it until I went away to college. I didn't know there was this kind of preference. But I noticed, in addition to the outside world of Washington, D.C., which at that time - this i"}
{"id": "793044006", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Toni Morrison", "question_index": 5, "text": "There was a New York Times Magazine cover story about you recently, and in that article, you described, when you were young, witnessing your father throw a white man down the stairs because your father thought this man was coming up the stairs after his daughters. Was your father afraid that this man was coming to abuse you and your sisters?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "793044006", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Toni Morrison", "question_index": 6, "text": "Do...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think he thought so."}
{"id": "793044006", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Toni Morrison", "question_index": 7, "text": "It sounds - you said that this incident made you feel protected. It sounds terrifying, though, for two reasons. One is that your father basically gave you a idea that this man was coming upstairs to do you harm. And two, watching your father not only throw him down the stairs but throwing your tricycle down the stairs after him - it sounds like that would be a little frightening to see also.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think his own experience in Georgia would have made him think that any white man bumbling up the stairs toward our apartment was not there for any good. And since we were little girls, he assumed th"}
{"id": "793044006", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Toni Morrison", "question_index": 8, "text": "I'm trying to think that through. I guess, you know, I think...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, if it was you and a black man was coming up the stairs after a little white girl and the white father threw the black man down, that wouldn't disturb you."}
{"id": "793044006", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Toni Morrison", "question_index": 9, "text": "It's a product of being in this, like, not very violent, working-class, middle-class family where I didn't see a lot of violence when I was growing up. So any violent act would probably have been very unnerving to me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My father felt about..."}
{"id": "793044006", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Toni Morrison", "question_index": 10, "text": "You know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was my father, who could do no wrong. So I didn't think of it as, oh, look; my father is a violent man. He never, you know, spanked us. He never quarreled with us. He never argued with us. He"}
{"id": "793044006", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Toni Morrison", "question_index": 11, "text": "I think it must have been hard for your father to hate white people and to live in a neighborhood in which there was a lot of white people.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thought the whole world was like Lorain."}
{"id": "793044006", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Toni Morrison", "question_index": 12, "text": "We're listening to my 2015 interview with Toni Morrison. She died last year. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, my father saw two black men lynched on his street in Cartersville, Ga., as a child. And I think seeing two black businessmen - not vagrants - hanging from trees as a child was traumati"}
{"id": "793044006", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Toni Morrison", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. This week, we're featuring interviews from the decade that just ended. Let's get back to my 2015 interview with Toni Morrison, who died last year. We spoke after Morrison had published her final novel \"God Help The Child.\" The main character's birth name is Lula Ann Bridewell. When she's 16, she changes it to Ann Bride. Two years later, she changes it to one name - Bride. And she's in the fashion world, in the cosmetics world. It's a very, you know, signature kind of name to have. Names are very important in your fiction. There's often - people often have nicknames. And I'm interested in hearing about why names have such real and symbolic importance in your stories.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, my father saw two black men lynched on his street in Cartersville, Ga., as a child. And I think seeing two black businessmen - not vagrants - hanging from trees as a child was traumati"}
{"id": "793044006", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Toni Morrison", "question_index": 14, "text": "So your birth name is Chloe Wofford. Morrison was your married name when you were married, but you you've been divorced a long time - since 1974. And Toni was shortened from Anthony, which was the name when you were...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And then you think of the musicians - Satchmo, Louis Armstrong. What is Satchmo? That's Satchel Mouth. Or you think about them giving themselves royal names - Duke and Count and King. You know, it's"}
{"id": "793044006", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Toni Morrison", "question_index": 15, "text": "...Baptized. And so am I right in saying that you became a Catholic when you were 12? That's what I read.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Baptized."}
{"id": "793044006", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Toni Morrison", "question_index": 16, "text": "So let's start with your name. Once you started being called Toni, did you feel different from being called Chloe?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I did."}
{"id": "793044006", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Toni Morrison", "question_index": 17, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded with Toni Morrison in 2015. Morrison died last year. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I never felt like anything other than Chloe. You know, my name, Chloe - nobody could pronounce it properly outside my family. In school, the teachers called me Chlo (ph) or Chlovee (ph) or Chlorie (ph"}
{"id": "793044006", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Toni Morrison", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. This week, we're featuring interviews from the decade that just ended. Let's get back to my 2015 interview with Toni Morrison, who died last year. We spoke after Morrison had published her final novel, \"God Help The Child.\" So the opening quote in your book - and it stands on a page alone before the book begins - is, suffer little children to come...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I never felt like anything other than Chloe. You know, my name, Chloe - nobody could pronounce it properly outside my family. In school, the teachers called me Chlo (ph) or Chlovee (ph) or Chlorie (ph"}
{"id": "793044006", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Toni Morrison", "question_index": 19, "text": "...Unto me, and forbid them not. And it's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "793044006", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Toni Morrison", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yeah. It's when Jesus...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's what Jesus said..."}
{"id": "793044006", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Toni Morrison", "question_index": 21, "text": "Jesus wants to bless the children, so he's basically saying, let the children come to me. Do not...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Says Luke."}
{"id": "793044006", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Toni Morrison", "question_index": 22, "text": "...Forbid them from coming.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "793044006", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Toni Morrison", "question_index": 23, "text": "Yeah. The disciples wanted to hold them back. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were holding them back."}
{"id": "793044006", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Toni Morrison", "question_index": 24, "text": "So it just made me wonder if you have spent a lot of time reading the Bible, either through your mother's religion when you were young - and she was very religious - or as a Catholic or as a literary person.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "793044006", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Toni Morrison", "question_index": 25, "text": "You know, many people have commented on the musicality of your writing. Do you think you tried to emulate her music in your prose?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think as a scholar, because it's gone through so many hands, so many translations - even the people who were writing it - you know, the scribes - were changing things. Numbers changed. What was seve"}
{"id": "793044006", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Toni Morrison", "question_index": 26, "text": "So just one more question - you didn't start writing till you were 39 or 40. Is that because you didn't have the time or didn't know you had it in you? Like, what was the point in which you said, I'm going to write a novel? What changed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't do it consciously or deliberately, but if it's there, then I am positive that that's part of it. You know, part of it for me is the sound. You know, I'm a radio child, you know, with the ear "}
{"id": "793044006", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Toni Morrison", "question_index": 27, "text": "Toni Morrison, thank you so much for talking with us. I really appreciate it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I was teaching at Howard University, and I was young - in my 20s - and I joined a group of faculty and writers who met, I think, once a month to read to each other and critique each other - some "}
{"id": "793044006", "date": "2020-01-02", "guest": "Toni Morrison", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Toni Morrison", "question_index": 28, "text": "Toni Morrison recorded in 2015. She died last August. She was 88. We've been playing some favorite interviews from the decade that just ended. If you've been enjoying these recordings from our archive, check out our new archive website, which has decades of interviews, some dating back as early as the 1970s, when FRESH AIR was a local show in Philadelphia. You can search by name or subject, make playlists. It's at freshairarchive.org. That's freshairarchive.org. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Mooj Zadie, Seth Kelley and Joel Wolfram. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're very welcome."}
{"id": "793049438", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Patti Smith", "question_index": 0, "text": "Patti Smith, welcome back to FRESH AIR. It's in New York that you met Robert Mapplethorpe, and, you know, you changed the course of each other's lives. Would you tell the story of how you met Robert Mapplethorpe?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's Patti Smith in the opening track of her 1975 debut studio album \"Horses.\" Known as the Godmother of Punk, she created a hybrid of poetry and rock and developed a high-energy performance style t"}
{"id": "793049438", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Patti Smith", "question_index": 1, "text": "At some point, you realize that Mapplethorpe was gay. At some point, he realized that he was gay. How did it affect his relationship with you? When he came to terms with being gay and had lovers and eventually had a long-time lover, were you able to stay as close, even though the relationship had changed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, our - my first meeting was very simple. I had some friends at Pratt Institute, people that went to my high school that had the means to go to art school. And I - I was looking for them, hoping f"}
{"id": "793049438", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Patti Smith", "question_index": 2, "text": "In your book, you write about how Mapplethorpe's work started to change and become more sadomasochistic in its imagery, which he became quite famous for. And you write that that imagery was bewildering and frightening to you. You write, he couldn't share things with me because it was so outside our realm and that you couldn't comprehend the brutality of his images of self-inflicted pain. It was hard for you to match it with the boy you had met. Can you talk a little bit about - a little bit more about your reaction to his images and what you found disturbing and incomprehensible about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, Robert and I always were just as close. I mean, we had to work out, obviously, the physical aspect of our relationship. And it was really me who, in the end, severed the physical aspect of our rel"}
{"id": "793049438", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Patti Smith", "question_index": 3, "text": "They're meant to be disturbing, yeah, right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they were disturbing images."}
{"id": "793049438", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Patti Smith", "question_index": 4, "text": "You say that until a friend suggested that you be in a rock 'n' roll band, it had never occurred to you. It was just, like, not part of your world.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm just - I mean, Robert - I mean, a lot of my reaction was out of, first of all, naietivity (ph). I didn't know anything about that world. I still know very little about that world. And my protectiv"}
{"id": "793049438", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Patti Smith", "question_index": 5, "text": "You were saying that you didn't have - you know, you didn't think of yourself as a singer, per se, that your friends had better voices than you did. But you created this new style, really, that was a combination of poetry and music. It wasn't about having, like, a perfect singer's voice. It was the style that you performed and the personality that you put into it - the kind of defiance that you had in some songs, the energy. Would you talk about what you felt you were doing early on that was different from what you'd seen other people do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, why would it? You know, I'm not a musician. You know, I didn't play any instrument. I didn't have any specific talents. I mean, I came from the South Jersey-Philadelphia area. And in early '60s, e"}
{"id": "793049438", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Patti Smith", "question_index": 6, "text": "It was your first album.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think my perception of myself was really as a performer and a communicator. I had a mission when we recorded \"Horses.\" My mission was..."}
{"id": "793049438", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Patti Smith", "question_index": 7, "text": "Is there a track from \"Horses\" that particularly illustrates what you were describing as what your mission was?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My first album \"Horses,\" my mission and the collective band mission was really, on one level, to merge poetry and rock 'n' roll but more humanistically, to reach out to other disenfranchised people. I"}
{"id": "793049438", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Patti Smith", "question_index": 8, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Birdland.\""}
{"id": "793049438", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Patti Smith", "question_index": 9, "text": "Oh, let's hear it. This is \"Birdland\" from Patti Smith's first album \"Horses.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think \"Birdland\" because - for various reasons. \"Birdland\" was an improvisation built on an improvisation. It so much exemplifies the communication of my band, especially between Richard, Lenny and "}
{"id": "793049438", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Patti Smith", "question_index": 10, "text": "Robert Mapplethorpe did the very iconic photograph for the cover of \"Horses.\" Would you briefly describe the photo?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2010 interview with poet, songwriter and performer Patti Smith, one of our staff picks for favorite interviews of the past decade."}
{"id": "793049438", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Patti Smith", "question_index": 11, "text": "What impact do you think that photo had on how people perceived you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's very classic photograph by Robert, very simple. I'm standing against a white wall with a triangular shadow, dressed in the clothes typical of myself then. And just an old white shirt - a cl"}
{"id": "793049438", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Patti Smith", "question_index": 12, "text": "They didn't? That's such a great photo. Why didn't the record company like it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", I know people really liked it. I know the record company didn't."}
{"id": "793049438", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Patti Smith", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It's just like, I'm not bothering you. Why are you worried about, you know, what I look like, you know? It's just - I'm not trying to bother anybody. But people loved the photograph. The people on t"}
{"id": "793049438", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Patti Smith", "question_index": 14, "text": "You write that, you know, when Mapplethorpe died of AIDS in March of '89, the morning that he died, you describe your feelings. And you say that you were shuddering, overwhelmed by a sense of excitement, acceleration, as if because of the closeness that you experienced with Robert, you were to be privy to his new adventure - the miracle of his death. You say this wild sensation stayed with you for some days. Could you describe that? Did you know he was dying when you - did - had you gotten the phone call when you felt this, or were you just feeling this, you know, without even...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was kind of cool. We were all - we all had suddenly turned Catholic."}
{"id": "793049438", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Patti Smith", "question_index": 15, "text": "After he died.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I felt that after he died."}
{"id": "793049438", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Patti Smith", "question_index": 16, "text": "You say that one of the people who you were with when he died was Allen Ginsberg, and in your memoir, you mention some advice that Ginsberg had given you after your husband died. He said, let go of the spirit of the departed and continue your life's celebration. Having experienced as much death as you have, is that good advice, do you think?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had already received the call that he had died. I mean, we knew that he was dying. We knew that he was dying the last couple of weeks of his life. I talked to him. I talked to Robert in the last hou"}
{"id": "793049438", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Patti Smith", "question_index": 17, "text": "Patti Smith, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I mean, I think that, you know, there - the idea that time heals all wounds is not really true. Our wounds aren't really ever healed. We just learn to walk with them. We learn that some days, we'"}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 0, "text": "Bruce Springsteen, welcome to FRESH AIR, and thank you for welcoming us into your studio. I'd love it if you would start by reading the very opening from the forward of your book. It's really a fantastic book, and I'd like our listeners to just hear a little bit of your writing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK, take two. (Singing) Well, I stood stone-like at midnight, suspended in my masquerade. I combed my hair till it was just right and commanded the night brigade. I was open to pain and crossed by the"}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 1, "text": "Thanks for reading that. So what's it like for you to write something that doesn't have to rhyme and that you don't have to perform onstage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK, my pleasure. (Reading) I come from a boardwalk town where almost everything is tinged with a bit of fraud. So am I. By 20, no race-car-driving rebel, I was a guitar player on the streets of Asbury"}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 2, "text": "Well, that's one of things I love about the book - is that there is rhythm and music in it even though it's not a song. So many of your songs, particularly the early ones, are about, you know, like, searching for a dream and running to, like, bust out of the confines of your life. And in some ways, you know, I get the impression from your book that that was your father's story, except he never found the dream. It's kind of like - a little bit like the story that you describe in your song \"The River.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's actually - not having to perform it onstage is a good one. But it's a little different. You know, it's - I'm used to writing something, it becomes a record, it comes out, then I go perform and "}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 3, "text": "'Cause when you were 19, he moved to California.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it was just incredible for everybody. So you're correct that my parents did really sort of live out a big part of that story, and to a certain degree, he did find his little piece of what he"}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 4, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 5, "text": "You're talking about mental illness?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They moved out west, which was a huge undertaking because no one - it's like - it was like moving to another planet for them, but I think that's what my father wanted to do. He wanted to move to anoth"}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 6, "text": "Do you think the song \"Born To Run\" is in part about him and in part about you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah - difficult to manage. But I believe he did feel like he found something there that he couldn't have found at home."}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 7, "text": "So you had a dream in a way that your father maybe didn't have a dream that he could articulate.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", but what do you know? And looking back on it, my parents lived out quite a bit of that story themselves."}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 8, "text": "Yeah, yeah. So you write, too, about your father that he was kind of very - let me quote you because you put it so well. You write that (reading) he loved me, but he couldn't stand me. He felt we competed for my mother's affections. We did. He also saw in me too much of his real self. Inside, beyond his rage, he harbored a gentleness, timidity, shyness and a dreamy insecurity. These were things I wore on the outside, and the reflection of these qualities in his boy repelled him. I was soft, and he hated soft. Of course, he'd been brought up soft - a mama's boy, just like me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It certainly wasn't one he could articulate. It was just, I got to get out of here."}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 9, "text": "So that timidity and shyness that you wore on the outside - it's kind of like the opposite of your stage persona.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 10, "text": "Can you tell us a little bit more about the timidity and shyness of your youth?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it was bizarre."}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 11, "text": "So do you think that your stage persona draws both from, like, the angry and uninhibited side of you and the more inhibited, timid side of you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I've got to take my - I've got to take some blame for that myself, I guess. But, yeah, just it was - when I was young, you know, I was very shy, and that was my personality. You know, I was a prett"}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 12, "text": "During your early years as a musician, you were in Asbury Park, boardwalk, carnival atmosphere. What did you love about that kind of urban beach", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2016 interview with Bruce Springsteen. He'd just published his memoir called \"Born To Run,\" and Terry Gross visited his New Jersey home studio to ask him a"}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 13, "text": ", you know?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2016 interview with Bruce Springsteen. He'd just published his memoir called \"Born To Run,\" and Terry Gross visited his New Jersey home studio to ask him a"}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 14, "text": "And the - you know, Madame Marie and all of the - like, all of the boardwalk regulars, you made great stories out of those characters, great songs out of those characters. But what appealed to you about knowing them and writing about them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 15, "text": "But you connected in some way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "..."}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Reason. But I went, and I just fit in there. Asbury was down on its luck but not as bad as it would get. And so there was a lot of room to move. You know, clubs were open till 5 a.m. There were gay"}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 17, "text": "And that's one of the things that really interests me in comparing you to Dylan because when you first started, people comparing you to Dylan, one of the new Dylans...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, we fit very comfortably in that picture. And then when I went to write, I just wrote about what was around me. It fired my imagination. It was - of course, was a colorful locale. The city wa"}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 18, "text": "...And everything. In some ways, like, persona-wise, you're the opposite. He changed his name. He surrounded himself in mystery. His lyrics are very obscure. Your lyrics tell stories. You're all about a place. You reveal so much about yourself and the world around you in your songs that - you know what I mean? Like, I know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 19, "text": "I know that you're more than what you literally tell us about in the songs. But still, you have an identity and try to tell us something of who you are in your songs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 20, "text": "I want to quote you again. So you write - this is toward the beginning of your career - I wanted to be a voice that reflected experience and the world I live in. So I knew in 1972 that to do this, I would need to write very well and more individually than I had ever written before. And this was - at some point you realized, too, that although you had, like, the most popular bar band in", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You just go where your psychology leads you. I think - you know, I've always loved the fact that Bob's been able to sustain his mystery over 50 or 60 years. That's - in this day and age, that's quite "}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 21, "text": "Asbury Park, that there was a bigger world. There was a lot of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You just go where your psychology leads you. I think - you know, I've always loved the fact that Bob's been able to sustain his mystery over 50 or 60 years. That's - in this day and age, that's quite "}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 22, "text": "...Talented people. And in order to, like, be someone in that world, to have a career, to make a difference, that you had to figure out what was unique about you, and you had to write great songs. And in fact, you achieved that. You wrote great songs. But, you know, how did you go about trying to write the best songs that you could, I mean, when you knew that a lot of this was going to depend on the songwriting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 23, "text": "You started going to therapy in 1983. And at some point, you say in your 60s, you had a really bad depression. And I'm wondering if you thought about, during that period when you were very depressed, how many people in the world really wanted to be you? And...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2016 interview with songwriter and performer Bruce Springsteen conducted at his home studio in New Jersey. He had just published his memoir called \"Born To"}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 24, "text": "Yeah, right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Doesn't count for that much at the time."}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 25, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, but - you know, people see you on stage and yeah, I'd want to be that guy. I want to be that guy myself very often."}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 26, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know? I get plenty - I have plenty of days where I go, man, I wish I could be that guy. And..."}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 27, "text": "You write about - I'm sorry?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "my daily existence."}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 28, "text": "Oh, OK", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I'm talking to myself."}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 29, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I'm talking to myself."}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 30, "text": "You write about how being on stage is almost like medicine for you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 31, "text": "You know, does it get you out of yourself? Does it...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 32, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, of course. You're immediately pulled out of the - your - the inside of your head, and it immediately changes your frame of mind. I've never been on stage where I've - no, that's not true. I have b"}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 33, "text": "During the depression, there was a period of a year and a half when you weren't on the road. You were home with one of your sons - I guess with your youngest?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's just nothing weirder you can do. If you're up there thinking about what you're doing, you're just not there. And it's not going to happen, you know? So trying to learn how to overcome those - "}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 34, "text": "Did that contribute to the depression because you couldn't be on stage, and you couldn't have that kind of cathartic experience?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm hmm."}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 35, "text": "As you mention in your book, you wanted to write songs that you wouldn't outgrow, that you could sing as an adult...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I tend to be not my own best company. I can get a little lost if I don't have my work to occasionally focus me. But at the same time, you've got to be able to figure that out. The year and a hal"}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 36, "text": "...That weren't just kids' songs and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 37, "text": "...You know, done, accomplished.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 38, "text": "But when you sing some of your early songs now as you still do, like \"Born To Run,\" does the song have a different meaning to you than it did when you first started performing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 39, "text": "What's an example of a song that's taken on a different meaning or more meaning for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We just had a series of concerts where the show was very interesting because we'd start out with my earliest material. And we played about half a record off of our first record and then half or three "}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 40, "text": "As someone who grew up in Brooklyn and now lives in Philadelphia, I love that you've continued to live in New Jersey - not only in New Jersey, but not far from where you grew up. Why have you stayed close to the home that your father left? Your father went to the opposite coast...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A lot of the ones that are people's favorites. You know, \"Born To Run\" - that expands every time we go out. It just seems to - even more of your life fills it in, fills in the story. And when we hit i"}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 41, "text": "...When you were a teenager.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's ironic, yeah."}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 42, "text": "Bruce Springsteen, I can't thank you enough for...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's rather ironic, but I just felt very comfortable here. And I was uncomfortable with city life. I was more or less a kid that came out of a small town, and I was a beach bum and loved the ocean and"}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 43, "text": "...Inviting us into your studio and allowing us to do this interview.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 44, "text": "Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much."}
{"id": "793053365", "date": "2020-01-03", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "'Fresh Air' Favorites: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 45, "text": "And I really love the book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very enjoyable. I appreciate it."}
{"id": "794864423", "date": "2020-01-09", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Journalist Details 'Dangerously Unstable' Relationship Between The U.S. And China", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today we're going to talk about the big story most of us haven't been focused on, the dangerously unstable relationship between the U.S. and China. It's the subject of an article in The New Yorker by my guest Evan Osnos, who covers politics and international affairs for the magazine. He lived in and reported from China for eight years and before that worked in the Middle East, reporting mostly from Iraq. In his new article, The Future of America's Contest with China, he writes about how the U.S. and China are wrestling to determine who will dominate the 21st century. He describes how China's president has redoubled political repression. He also writes about concerns in China and the U.S. about the impact of the trade war launched by President Trump and how some people in the Trump administration are preparing for the possibility of a real war. Osnos says China has recently been building up its military, acquiring new missiles, air defenses, submarines and cyber weapons that can scramble the electric grids of opponents. They've strengthened their military to the point that Pentagon analysts believe China could defeat U.S. forces in a confrontation along China's borders. Evan Osnos, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Let's start with Iran. Is this a conflict China would likely take sides in?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "794864423", "date": "2020-01-09", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Journalist Details 'Dangerously Unstable' Relationship Between The U.S. And China", "question_index": 1, "text": "You say it would also be a diplomatic victory for China. How so?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "China would prefer not to take sides. That's been its traditional posture. But it has greeted this moment, frankly, with a kind of quiet relief. The possibility that the United States will be drawn on"}
{"id": "794864423", "date": "2020-01-09", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Journalist Details 'Dangerously Unstable' Relationship Between The U.S. And China", "question_index": 2, "text": "Is it also that while the U.S. has been spending a lot of money on wars in the Middle East, China has been investing in other countries, investing in its own research and development, building its infrastructure?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "China's been on this long effort to try to win over new friends in the Middle East, you know, beginning in Saudi Arabia and Iraq and elsewhere. And if this is a chance for China to draw new friendship"}
{"id": "794864423", "date": "2020-01-09", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Journalist Details 'Dangerously Unstable' Relationship Between The U.S. And China", "question_index": 3, "text": "Does China have interests in the Middle East?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It has. It has used this period, this really 19-year period in which the United States has spent so much blood and treasure abroad, to try to invest on the homefront, beginning with infrastructure - b"}
{"id": "794864423", "date": "2020-01-09", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Journalist Details 'Dangerously Unstable' Relationship Between The U.S. And China", "question_index": 4, "text": "So many of us have been focused on the impeachment and Ukraine and Russia and haven't been thinking so much about Iran, and now this. Might it be a similar situation with China - while we're not watching, things are escalating?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It has huge interests in the Middle East. I mean, China right now is tremendously reliant on Middle Eastern oil. Its economy is very sensitive to the possibility of an oil shock. So China does not wan"}
{"id": "794864423", "date": "2020-01-09", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Journalist Details 'Dangerously Unstable' Relationship Between The U.S. And China", "question_index": 5, "text": "A retired Army officer who was also an Asia adviser to Bush and Obama said to you if you talk to folks in the Pentagon, they say they're no longer debating whether or not China is an enemy. They're planning for war. War?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very much so. I think that's a great way to put it. In a way, we are focused these days - necessarily - on these incredibly dramatic, tactical developments in our politics, really huge changes. And ye"}
{"id": "794864423", "date": "2020-01-09", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Journalist Details 'Dangerously Unstable' Relationship Between The U.S. And China", "question_index": 6, "text": "What could push us to war with China?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that is - exactly. That's the kind of thing that surprised me, frankly. And I do this for a living. I focus on China and report on it. But it would be a shock to many Americans. We just - I th"}
{"id": "794864423", "date": "2020-01-09", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Journalist Details 'Dangerously Unstable' Relationship Between The U.S. And China", "question_index": 7, "text": "Well, it's especially dangerous if there are people in China or the U.S. and the administrations there who are looking for an opportunity to go to war. So who are the most hawkish people in the Trump administration now when it comes to China, and how hawkish are they?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well it sounds obscure, but the Western Pacific, which is this vast stretch of land that encompasses Taiwan and the South China Sea and a whole set of islands and atolls and reefs that most Americans "}
{"id": "794864423", "date": "2020-01-09", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Journalist Details 'Dangerously Unstable' Relationship Between The U.S. And China", "question_index": 8, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Evan Osnos. He writes about politics and international affairs for The New Yorker. His new article is called \"The Future Of America's Contest With China.\" We'll take a short break here, and then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, if we take one of the very prominent voices in the administration - that's Mike Pompeo, secretary of state. And Pompeo has been very out front in terms of talking about China in very stark terms"}
{"id": "794864423", "date": "2020-01-09", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Journalist Details 'Dangerously Unstable' Relationship Between The U.S. And China", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Evan Osnos, a staff writer for The New Yorker who covers politics and international affairs. His new article is called \"The Future Of America's Contest With China.\" He's covered China for years. He lived in China for eight years. One of the people in the Trump administration is Peter Navarro, who is the author of a book you describe as very hawkish called \"Death By China.\" And Navarro is now assistant to the president and director of trade and manufacturing policy. So what does he have to say about China?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, if we take one of the very prominent voices in the administration - that's Mike Pompeo, secretary of state. And Pompeo has been very out front in terms of talking about China in very stark terms"}
{"id": "794864423", "date": "2020-01-09", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Journalist Details 'Dangerously Unstable' Relationship Between The U.S. And China", "question_index": 10, "text": "Did Peter Navarro ever say, guess I was wrong?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, Peter Navarro is an important example of the kind of ideas that are circulating around President Trump. Peter Navarro was a business school professor who wrote a book called \"Death By China,\" as"}
{"id": "794864423", "date": "2020-01-09", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Journalist Details 'Dangerously Unstable' Relationship Between The U.S. And China", "question_index": 11, "text": "So when Pompeo says that China wants to dominate the globe, does he mean economically, does he mean militarily, in terms of just having a very strong military, or is he envisioning, like, invasions where China invades a lot of countries and dominates it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He has not said that. No, he has said that they were right to pursue tariffs and that they would win a trade war. Look - the president tweeted in the beginning of this process that trade wars are good"}
{"id": "794864423", "date": "2020-01-09", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Journalist Details 'Dangerously Unstable' Relationship Between The U.S. And China", "question_index": 12, "text": "But meanwhile, a Cold War-era anti-Soviet group, the Committee on the Present Danger, has reformed. Who has reformed it? What is it trying to do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's not envisioning invasions. Fundamentally, what he's imagining is something that is - evokes the history the Cold War. It evokes that memory of the struggle with the Soviets in which you had these"}
{"id": "794864423", "date": "2020-01-09", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Journalist Details 'Dangerously Unstable' Relationship Between The U.S. And China", "question_index": 13, "text": "Do you think Mike Pompeo, our secretary of state, or President Trump would ditto what Newt Gingrich said?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I found that to be a telling indicator. The Committee on the Present Danger was originally formed in the 1950s to advocate against Soviet aggression, and it was revived in 2019 by Steve Bannon, "}
{"id": "794864423", "date": "2020-01-09", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Journalist Details 'Dangerously Unstable' Relationship Between The U.S. And China", "question_index": 14, "text": "My guest is Evan Osnos, a staff writer for The New Yorker. His new article is titled \"The Future Of America's Contest With China.\" After we take a short break, we'll talk more about the possibility of a military encounter between the U.S. and China, and we'll hear how China's authoritarian government is reflected in how it deals with Hollywood and the NBA. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, in various versions. Mike Pompeo is more decorous in the way he describes it. He's not quite as casual. But he is very clear that he regards this as a zero-sum competition. He - when he says that"}
{"id": "794864423", "date": "2020-01-09", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Journalist Details 'Dangerously Unstable' Relationship Between The U.S. And China", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Evan Osnos, who writes about politics and international affairs for The New Yorker. His new article, The Future of America's Contest with China, is about the increasingly unstable relationship between China and the U.S, the impact of the trade war launched by President Trump and how some people in the Trump administration are planning for the possibility of a real war with China. Osnos lived in and reported from China for eight years. So what you've described is a very combustible situation. We already have a trade war with China. China is militarizing the South China Sea by building these artificial islands and making them basically into military bases. And you have people in the Trump administration, including the secretary of state, who see China as a threat to us and as a global threat. Do you see the possibility of a military encounter with China like we just have had with Iran? And who knows what happens next?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, in various versions. Mike Pompeo is more decorous in the way he describes it. He's not quite as casual. But he is very clear that he regards this as a zero-sum competition. He - when he says that"}
{"id": "794864423", "date": "2020-01-09", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Journalist Details 'Dangerously Unstable' Relationship Between The U.S. And China", "question_index": 16, "text": "My understanding of World War I is part of the reason why we went to war is that all the countries were basically playing a game of chicken, assuming, well, nobody's really going to go to war. And then something kind of lit the fuse, and suddenly there was a World War.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I do. And more importantly, there are people across the political spectrum who have come to worry about that risk, the risk that you have an incidental encounter, some kind of collision, some fl"}
{"id": "794864423", "date": "2020-01-09", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Journalist Details 'Dangerously Unstable' Relationship Between The U.S. And China", "question_index": 17, "text": "Well, what did President Trump's leadership when it came to taking out Soleimani and handling Iran, what has that told you about how Trump might behave in dealing with China? Say there's even an accidental military incident in the South China Sea.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. And Henry Kissinger said to me that if you had asked the leaders of all those countries after the war was over whether they would have ever imagined that this could happen and whether they wo"}
{"id": "794864423", "date": "2020-01-09", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Journalist Details 'Dangerously Unstable' Relationship Between The U.S. And China", "question_index": 18, "text": "Do we even have the staff? There are so many vacant positions in the State Department.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the risk that we face with Donald Trump's form of leadership is that even though he ran for office saying that he wanted to pull American troops out of the Middle East and bring people home, h"}
{"id": "794864423", "date": "2020-01-09", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Journalist Details 'Dangerously Unstable' Relationship Between The U.S. And China", "question_index": 19, "text": "One of Trump's positions on China is what he's described, or what others have described as uncoupling. What does that mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's true. And those positions are vacant. And then also, those lines of communication between us and the Chinese are dormant. A lot of those dialogues, a lot of those literal - sometimes literal fo"}
{"id": "794864423", "date": "2020-01-09", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Journalist Details 'Dangerously Unstable' Relationship Between The U.S. And China", "question_index": 20, "text": "So Trump is a bit of a wild card. I think he's very impulsive, as we've seen. In the meantime, President Xi is more authoritarian than Chinese presidents from the recent past and is more communist, more seriously communist. So can you elaborate on that for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One remarkable measure of the level of integration between these two economies is that even during this tense period, Starbucks has been opening a new store in China every 15 hours. So you have this i"}
{"id": "794864423", "date": "2020-01-09", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Journalist Details 'Dangerously Unstable' Relationship Between The U.S. And China", "question_index": 21, "text": "My guest is Evan Osnos, who writes about politics and foreign affairs for The New Yorker. His new article is titled \"The Future Of America's Contest With China.\" We'll talk more after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's really striking. I mean, anybody who's been involved in China or lived there in the last decade or two is struck by how repressive it feels in Beijing these days. Xi Jinping came to power i"}
{"id": "794864423", "date": "2020-01-09", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Journalist Details 'Dangerously Unstable' Relationship Between The U.S. And China", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Evan Osnos, a staff writer for The New Yorker. His new article is titled \"The Future Of America's Contest With China.\" You were mentioning how China, under President Xi, has been trying to close down some Western influence. China has been censoring American movies. And for example - you quote this in your New Yorker piece - the version of the movie about Queen deleted all references to Freddie Mercury being gay. So as you point out, like, there's an alternate universe in China...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's really striking. I mean, anybody who's been involved in China or lived there in the last decade or two is struck by how repressive it feels in Beijing these days. Xi Jinping came to power i"}
{"id": "794864423", "date": "2020-01-09", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Journalist Details 'Dangerously Unstable' Relationship Between The U.S. And China", "question_index": 23, "text": "...Where Freddie Mercury was never gay.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "794864423", "date": "2020-01-09", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Journalist Details 'Dangerously Unstable' Relationship Between The U.S. And China", "question_index": 24, "text": "And that's happening with other movies, too. And as Judd Apatow points out in your piece, if you want to make a movie and you expect to have, like, major studio backing forward for it, you can't have anything negative about China. They won't do it. The studio won't...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "794864423", "date": "2020-01-09", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Journalist Details 'Dangerously Unstable' Relationship Between The U.S. And China", "question_index": 25, "text": "The studio knows it will lose a huge market, and it won't back you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "794864423", "date": "2020-01-09", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Journalist Details 'Dangerously Unstable' Relationship Between The U.S. And China", "question_index": 26, "text": "Then you have the whole collision of commerce versus human rights, a collision that became very visible with the NBA. Would you tell that story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. That gets to such an interesting question, which is, you know, what can we do, essentially, to try to shape this conflict or this contest? And over the last 10 years, 10 or 15 years, Holly"}
{"id": "794864423", "date": "2020-01-09", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Journalist Details 'Dangerously Unstable' Relationship Between The U.S. And China", "question_index": 27, "text": "So the tweet from the general manager of the Houston Rockets about standing with the protesters in Hong Kong, that ended up costing the NBA a lot of money. Like, what do you - what do they estimate it's cost them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that was a fascinating one. I mean, NBA has had this charmed existence in China going back now 20 years. When I moved there in 2005, I remember watching kids play basketball on the local basketb"}
{"id": "794864423", "date": "2020-01-09", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Journalist Details 'Dangerously Unstable' Relationship Between The U.S. And China", "question_index": 28, "text": "My guest is Evan Osnos, a staff writer for The New Yorker. His new article is titled \"The Future Of America's Contest With China.\" We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We haven't seen a number, but hundreds of millions would be a reasonable guess. I mean, it's a vast market for them. Their NBA China operation is estimated to be worth $4 billion or more. So the idea "}
{"id": "794864423", "date": "2020-01-09", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Journalist Details 'Dangerously Unstable' Relationship Between The U.S. And China", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Evan Osnos, who writes about politics and international affairs for The New Yorker. His new article is titled \"The Future Of America's Contest With China.\" President Xi has been cracking down on protesters and on human rights. He's rounded up and imprisoned Chinese Muslims. How many people would you estimate?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We haven't seen a number, but hundreds of millions would be a reasonable guess. I mean, it's a vast market for them. Their NBA China operation is estimated to be worth $4 billion or more. So the idea "}
{"id": "794864423", "date": "2020-01-09", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Journalist Details 'Dangerously Unstable' Relationship Between The U.S. And China", "question_index": 30, "text": "OK. And in Hong Kong, there's been street clashes between protesters who resent China's control over Hong Kong and want - the new assertion of control over Hong Kong. And they've been clashing with police. Then they - some of those clashes have been - become pretty violent. So what has President Trump's response to these violations been, both with the Uighur Muslims that Xi has rounded up and imprisoned and the crackdown against protesters in Hong Kong?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "At least a million at this point."}
{"id": "794864423", "date": "2020-01-09", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Journalist Details 'Dangerously Unstable' Relationship Between The U.S. And China", "question_index": 31, "text": "You know, when it comes to conflicts with China in terms of, you know, trade, business, technology, it's not like a military conflict where one side says OK, we've been defeated. You win. And there's a victor and a loser. I mean...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one area in which the Trump administration has attracted praise, really, from Democrats and Republicans is that it has been clear about its condemnation of China's treatment of Muslims. It has s"}
{"id": "794864423", "date": "2020-01-09", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Journalist Details 'Dangerously Unstable' Relationship Between The U.S. And China", "question_index": 32, "text": "...China is going to continue to develop technology, and so is the United States, and so are other countries. So you look at President Trump, who likes to win...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "794864423", "date": "2020-01-09", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Journalist Details 'Dangerously Unstable' Relationship Between The U.S. And China", "question_index": 33, "text": "...What would winning mean here? And is winning even a reasonable way of looking at it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "794864423", "date": "2020-01-09", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Journalist Details 'Dangerously Unstable' Relationship Between The U.S. And China", "question_index": 34, "text": "Evan Osnos, it's been great to talk with you. Thank you so much. Thank you for your reporting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The temptation is to imagine this as having a simple victor and a loser. And partly that's because of the end of the Soviet struggle. There really was a winner and a loser. And in some ways, we are ca"}
{"id": "794864423", "date": "2020-01-09", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Journalist Details 'Dangerously Unstable' Relationship Between The U.S. And China", "question_index": 35, "text": "Evan Osnos is a staff writer for The New Yorker. His new article is titled The Future of America's Contest with China. If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, like our interview with Todd Phillips, co-writer and director of the film \"Joker,\" with journalist Peggy Orenstein, whose new book \"Boys And Sex\" is a follow-up to her book \"Girls And Sex,\" or with Andrea Bernstein, author of the new book \"American Oligarchs: The Kushners, The Trumps And The Marriage Of Money And Power,\" check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Thea Chaloner, Mooj Zadie and Seth Kelley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me, Terry."}
{"id": "795195864", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Buck Henry", "title": "Remembering 'Graduate' Screenwriter Buck Henry", "question_index": 0, "text": "Well, let's start with the end of the film. In the end of the film, it's kind of, like, a few beats after the typical happy ending. You know, they run away together, boy and girl get each other, a real triumph. And then the camera just lingers longer on them than it normally would. And you see their faces drop, and this, like, oh, what now expression come over. Did you know that that's the way it was going to end when you wrote the screenplay? What...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry Gross spoke with Buck Henry in 1997. Their conversation took place at the Film Forum in Manhattan as part of a celebration of the then-30th anniversary of \"The Graduate.\" They spoke after a scre"}
{"id": "795195864", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Buck Henry", "title": "Remembering 'Graduate' Screenwriter Buck Henry", "question_index": 1, "text": "Through the blood coming out of the palms of his hands", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They..."}
{"id": "795195864", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Buck Henry", "title": "Remembering 'Graduate' Screenwriter Buck Henry", "question_index": 2, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They..."}
{"id": "795195864", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Buck Henry", "title": "Remembering 'Graduate' Screenwriter Buck Henry", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. With a - yeah, with a few scars. But that was not intended, and had we foreseen it, we might have done something differently, but probably not. The - and the cross - which I think was my idea, b"}
{"id": "795195864", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Buck Henry", "title": "Remembering 'Graduate' Screenwriter Buck Henry", "question_index": 4, "text": "Well, in the film world, I mean, I think it's fair to say, now that a lot of producers are uncomfortable with ambiguous endings, and a lot of test audiences at the focus groups before a movie is released, they don't like unhappy endings. And a lot of endings nowadays are changed so that viewers get what they want, which is a happy resolution. There was no such thing in '67, '68 when this was coming out, right? You didn't have to test market it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And they're sitting there and it's - as I read in someone's critique of it in the last few days, it's a whole - it looks forward to the end of the '70s and the doom of that generation - blah, blah, bl"}
{"id": "795195864", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Buck Henry", "title": "Remembering 'Graduate' Screenwriter Buck Henry", "question_index": 5, "text": "Any producer saying that the ending is too ambiguous, you've got a make it a more...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it's always - you know, you can't second-guess from any particular group."}
{"id": "795195864", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Buck Henry", "title": "Remembering 'Graduate' Screenwriter Buck Henry", "question_index": 6, "text": "When the film came out in late 1967, it really tapped into something. There weren't really many films at all that were addressing this generational split, that were addressing the alienation that college people felt when they went home back to their parents' houses, and they knew they didn't fit there anymore, and they didn't want to be there anymore, and their parents' friends were kind of scary to them. So this tapped into that at a time when Hollywood was always, like, several beats behind what was really happening in the world, and TV was even more beats behind that. What do you remember of what people were saying about what \"The Graduate\" meant, you know, to our culture when it was released? And what rang true to you, and what did you think was really, like, absurd?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No, nobody ever said that. And also, it is a happy ending with a little slice of lemon in it. I mean, it is - he's got his girl, and they've run away from the people that they're scared of, and th"}
{"id": "795195864", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Buck Henry", "title": "Remembering 'Graduate' Screenwriter Buck Henry", "question_index": 7, "text": "To me, one of the greatest paradoxes of the movie is that it's about, you know, a young man who comes home and he's just so lost in his parents' environment. And so what does he do? He has an affair with his parent's (ph) mother", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's odd because we didn't think of it as defining a time or a place and went about making it assiduously avoiding the errata of contemporary politics. And the only vague mention is when the"}
{"id": "795195864", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Buck Henry", "title": "Remembering 'Graduate' Screenwriter Buck Henry", "question_index": 8, "text": ", you know. It's the first film that really addresses the culture - you know, the generation gap. And so he's sleeping with somebody of the other generation. It's really paradoxical.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's odd because we didn't think of it as defining a time or a place and went about making it assiduously avoiding the errata of contemporary politics. And the only vague mention is when the"}
{"id": "795195864", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Buck Henry", "title": "Remembering 'Graduate' Screenwriter Buck Henry", "question_index": 9, "text": "I remember when I saw it, when the film came out, one of the things I couldn't imagine - I couldn't imagine any of the men I know, any of the men I knew, any of my friends sleeping with my mother's friends or with any of the mothers that we knew. It was just unimaginable to me. I think most of us saw our mothers as not being sexual. And so this was, like, a different world to me. Now, speaking about your mother...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...To pass the time and to get to know new friends."}
{"id": "795195864", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Buck Henry", "title": "Remembering 'Graduate' Screenwriter Buck Henry", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they're two very different things. Sleeping..."}
{"id": "795195864", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Buck Henry", "title": "Remembering 'Graduate' Screenwriter Buck Henry", "question_index": 11, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, sleeping with your mother's friends or someone sleeping with your mother."}
{"id": "795195864", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Buck Henry", "title": "Remembering 'Graduate' Screenwriter Buck Henry", "question_index": 12, "text": "Right. Now, I'm thinking - your mother was a silent film star. She was a beauty.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They're loaded in very different ways."}
{"id": "795195864", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Buck Henry", "title": "Remembering 'Graduate' Screenwriter Buck Henry", "question_index": 13, "text": "But I'm thinking that you probably were brought up in a world where women were very glamorous and very sexual.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "An uncomfortable segue, but yes."}
{"id": "795195864", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Buck Henry", "title": "Remembering 'Graduate' Screenwriter Buck Henry", "question_index": 14, "text": "So the sentiment in this movie rang true?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There were many of my mother's friends I would happily have risked social approbation for."}
{"id": "795195864", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Buck Henry", "title": "Remembering 'Graduate' Screenwriter Buck Henry", "question_index": 15, "text": "You know, when \"The Graduate\" came out, I think it was still very uncommon to have actual records used instead of just a score written for the movie. So the Simon & Garfunkel record's tie-in was very novel, and it was very successful. \"Mrs. Robinson\" rose to No. 1 on the charts, and it really certainly helped Simon & Garfunkel's career a lot. Whose idea was it to actually use records?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's conversation with screenwriter and character actor Buck Henry, who died Wednesday at age 89. They spoke in 1997 at Manhattan's Film Forum, right after a sc"}
{"id": "795195864", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Buck Henry", "title": "Remembering 'Graduate' Screenwriter Buck Henry", "question_index": 16, "text": "\"Sounds Of Silence.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mike had Paul's music in his head from the very beginning. I didn't - I wasn't that familiar with it, but I listened to it a lot while - I listened to it a bit while working. He thought - well, Paul w"}
{"id": "795195864", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Buck Henry", "title": "Remembering 'Graduate' Screenwriter Buck Henry", "question_index": 17, "text": "You've said that when you were writing the screenplay, you saw the character of Benjamin as being a very kind of prototypically Southern California, blond, surfboard kind of guy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They did a really nice version of it."}
{"id": "795195864", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Buck Henry", "title": "Remembering 'Graduate' Screenwriter Buck Henry", "question_index": 18, "text": "Not Dustin Hoffman, who...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "795195864", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Buck Henry", "title": "Remembering 'Graduate' Screenwriter Buck Henry", "question_index": 19, "text": "...Doesn't fit anything in that description.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Everybody..."}
{"id": "795195864", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Buck Henry", "title": "Remembering 'Graduate' Screenwriter Buck Henry", "question_index": 20, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We thought of all of - well, we used to call them the surfboards. And we thought of all of them as being big and blond and Southern California. You know, the - I mean, there is a genetic thing that ha"}
{"id": "795195864", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Buck Henry", "title": "Remembering 'Graduate' Screenwriter Buck Henry", "question_index": 21, "text": "So when you saw Dustin Hoffman on the screen test, what made you think that, even though he didn't fit at all your image of what this character should be, that he was right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so we thought of - and Charles Webb was tall and blond and very prep school-looking. So we thought of them all as being the blond family - you know, ideally, a Ronald Reagan, Doris Day mother and "}
{"id": "795195864", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Buck Henry", "title": "Remembering 'Graduate' Screenwriter Buck Henry", "question_index": 22, "text": "Did you see the character as being insecure and neurotic in the way that he is in the movie?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, it was there. The soul was there. And also, he was - it was a great - it's a great screen test. He's - I think he did it with Katharine, and they're just terrific in it. It's really good, "}
{"id": "795195864", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Buck Henry", "title": "Remembering 'Graduate' Screenwriter Buck Henry", "question_index": 23, "text": "He supplanted what you had in your mind.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't remember anymore."}
{"id": "795195864", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Buck Henry", "title": "Remembering 'Graduate' Screenwriter Buck Henry", "question_index": 24, "text": "Now, how did Anne Bancroft get the part of Mrs. Robinson? She had, not too long before \"The Graduate,\" played the saintly and sacrificing Anne Sullivan in \"The Miracle Worker,\" the story of Helen Keller, and this is a long distance from that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, they become the thing you thought you'd invented but didn't really know was there. But it was so interesting. So then we rationalized it because we'd been talking about them as being s"}
{"id": "795195864", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Buck Henry", "title": "Remembering 'Graduate' Screenwriter Buck Henry", "question_index": 25, "text": "She's wonderful.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she was a famous and loved actress."}
{"id": "795195864", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Buck Henry", "title": "Remembering 'Graduate' Screenwriter Buck Henry", "question_index": 26, "text": "Were they married then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And nobody ever - I mean, there's no question that she could do it and really do it. She was advised by everyone except Mel not to do it. At least, that's the story they tell."}
{"id": "795195864", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Buck Henry", "title": "Remembering 'Graduate' Screenwriter Buck Henry", "question_index": 27, "text": "She and Mel Brooks?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "795195864", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Buck Henry", "title": "Remembering 'Graduate' Screenwriter Buck Henry", "question_index": 28, "text": "I'm going to squeeze a little question into the couple of seconds we have remaining, which is, did you identify - aside from admiring some of your mother's friends, did you identify with the Benjamin Braddock character at all?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "795195864", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Buck Henry", "title": "Remembering 'Graduate' Screenwriter Buck Henry", "question_index": 29, "text": "With - you did.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Totally."}
{"id": "795195864", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Buck Henry", "title": "Remembering 'Graduate' Screenwriter Buck Henry", "question_index": 30, "text": "If you identified with Dustin Hoffman's character, that kind of adrift - I don't have a future; I don't know what my future is - what was the turning point for you where you found writing, you found theater and movies?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, and so did Mike, and so did Larry. We all did. I think that's what drove us toward - drove them toward the book and me, subsequently, too."}
{"id": "795195864", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Buck Henry", "title": "Remembering 'Graduate' Screenwriter Buck Henry", "question_index": 31, "text": "Buck Henry, thank you so much for coming. It was wonderful for you to be here.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I always knew I wanted to do it. It was just a question of people not letting me. So when I was younger - I got out of the Army and I spent years - like, seven or eight years - sort of batting a"}
{"id": "795195864", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Buck Henry", "title": "Remembering 'Graduate' Screenwriter Buck Henry", "question_index": 32, "text": "Wonderful of you to do it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks."}
{"id": "795195864", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Buck Henry", "title": "Remembering 'Graduate' Screenwriter Buck Henry", "question_index": 33, "text": "(As Benjamin) Oh, it's in the car. It's out there in the car.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Clerk) Where is your luggage?"}
{"id": "795209500", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Jack Sheldon", "title": "Remembering Jazz Trumpeter, Singer And Actor Jack Sheldon", "question_index": 0, "text": "Jack Sheldon, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) This love of mine goes on and on, though life is empty since you have gone. You're always on my mind, though out of sight. It's lonely through the day. But all the night I cry my heart out. "}
{"id": "795209500", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Jack Sheldon", "title": "Remembering Jazz Trumpeter, Singer And Actor Jack Sheldon", "question_index": 1, "text": "I don't know why I had this image of you, but I always thought of you as somebody who relied a lot on humor in their singing and music. And there's something so emotionally naked about some of the songs on your new record that really surprised me. I really love the singing and the playing on it. Is the choice of material or the kind of singing that you're doing a relatively recent development with you, the kind of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks. It's nice to be here."}
{"id": "795209500", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Jack Sheldon", "title": "Remembering Jazz Trumpeter, Singer And Actor Jack Sheldon", "question_index": 2, "text": "...Ballad that you're doing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I've been trying to..."}
{"id": "795209500", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Jack Sheldon", "title": "Remembering Jazz Trumpeter, Singer And Actor Jack Sheldon", "question_index": 3, "text": "Well, that's interesting. Tell me what you're getting from learning how to sing - I mean, taking formal lessons.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I think I'm singing better now. I'm studying singing. And I'm - so I just can do it better. But I've been doing it all my life. It's - yeah, it's more naked, I think, and more - I like that, emotio"}
{"id": "795209500", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Jack Sheldon", "title": "Remembering Jazz Trumpeter, Singer And Actor Jack Sheldon", "question_index": 4, "text": "Was there another change that happened to you besides taking lessons? Did something happen emotionally that left you more open to this kind of material?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, just real simple stuff, but, you know, to have a lot of foundation, get a lot of air, and use your diaphragm. And I notice now when I am - if I'm having trouble with a note, it's really because "}
{"id": "795209500", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Jack Sheldon", "title": "Remembering Jazz Trumpeter, Singer And Actor Jack Sheldon", "question_index": 5, "text": "When you were playing in the 1950s, bop was the thing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I got sober eight years ago. And I don't drink or take drugs or do anything like that. And I think that left me teachable. Before that, I thought I was really cool and I knew everything. So - an"}
{"id": "795209500", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Jack Sheldon", "title": "Remembering Jazz Trumpeter, Singer And Actor Jack Sheldon", "question_index": 6, "text": "And very few of the instrumentalists sang. Did you sing back then, and were you self-conscious about singing at all?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "795209500", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Jack Sheldon", "title": "Remembering Jazz Trumpeter, Singer And Actor Jack Sheldon", "question_index": 7, "text": "Did you have a reputation for doing that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I was always self-conscious about singing. I wanted to sing, but it's so personal, singing. And I started singing with Benny Goodman's band. And that was about 1958. And I wrote a song, and Benn"}
{"id": "795209500", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Jack Sheldon", "title": "Remembering Jazz Trumpeter, Singer And Actor Jack Sheldon", "question_index": 8, "text": "What kind of work do you do with Lenny Bruce? You were in the band plan playing at the club or something?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I worked with Lenny Bruce, and I was trying to kind of emulate him at the time."}
{"id": "795209500", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Jack Sheldon", "title": "Remembering Jazz Trumpeter, Singer And Actor Jack Sheldon", "question_index": 9, "text": "Oh, really? Like your own version of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. In burlesque, I worked with Lenny Bruce. We worked with his wife, Honey, and Jo Maney and Philly Joe Jones and Kenny Drew and Leroy Vinnegar. We had quite a real good band there. And we played b"}
{"id": "795209500", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Jack Sheldon", "title": "Remembering Jazz Trumpeter, Singer And Actor Jack Sheldon", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. In burlesque, I worked with Lenny Bruce. We worked with his wife, Honey, and Jo Maney and Philly Joe Jones and Kenny Drew and Leroy Vinnegar. We had quite a real good band there. And we played b"}
{"id": "795209500", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Jack Sheldon", "title": "Remembering Jazz Trumpeter, Singer And Actor Jack Sheldon", "question_index": 11, "text": "Oh, that must have been interesting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, a burlesque version."}
{"id": "795209500", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Jack Sheldon", "title": "Remembering Jazz Trumpeter, Singer And Actor Jack Sheldon", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it was funny. I think it ended up where the guy flushed the dope down the toilet, and then Lenny said, there's nothing - there's only one thing to do, is smoke the toilet. It doesn't sound so fu"}
{"id": "795209500", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Jack Sheldon", "title": "Remembering Jazz Trumpeter, Singer And Actor Jack Sheldon", "question_index": 13, "text": "It's interesting to me. You know, you're taking lessons now in singing and trumpet, and I'm glad for the fact that you're not becoming overly obsessive in your performance on technique. I mean, you still, like, play trumpet solos in which there's kind of clear, ringing notes but also these, like, wonderful, like, smudged arpeggiated kind of figures. You know what I mean? I'd hate for you...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1993 interview with jazz trumpeter and singer Jack Sheldon. He died last month at age 88."}
{"id": "795209500", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Jack Sheldon", "title": "Remembering Jazz Trumpeter, Singer And Actor Jack Sheldon", "question_index": 14, "text": "...To give that up just because you're learning good technique.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I don't think there's much chance..."}
{"id": "795209500", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Jack Sheldon", "title": "Remembering Jazz Trumpeter, Singer And Actor Jack Sheldon", "question_index": 15, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I don't think there's much chance..."}
{"id": "795209500", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Jack Sheldon", "title": "Remembering Jazz Trumpeter, Singer And Actor Jack Sheldon", "question_index": 16, "text": ". Why don't I play another track from your latest album, \"On My Own?\" And I thought I'd play some of \"I Can't Get Started\" 'cause it kind of shows off everything - your trumpet playing, your singing. And it shows both, like, the emotionalism of your singing and also some of the humor in it, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, yeah. I'm going to have that smudge for life, I guess. My teacher says that. He says, I don't want to ruin your style or anything. But I don't think there's much chance of that. It just - I would "}
{"id": "795209500", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Jack Sheldon", "title": "Remembering Jazz Trumpeter, Singer And Actor Jack Sheldon", "question_index": 17, "text": "That's Jack Sheldon on trumpet and vocals from his new album, \"On My Own.\" There's a really interesting documentary about the trumpeter Chet Baker that you were featured in. You were one of the people interviewed about Baker. And I remember you saying that - and I should mention that like you, Chet Baker played trumpet and sang. And you were very funny about him. You talked a little bit about how frustrating it was that he never - you know, you were always in a room rehearsing, you know, practicing. And he never had to practice or anything. He always just had this sound. And he always...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". You're so supreme."}
{"id": "795209500", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Jack Sheldon", "title": "Remembering Jazz Trumpeter, Singer And Actor Jack Sheldon", "question_index": 18, "text": "How old were you then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nope, he never did. I hear Harry James never had to practice, but I have to practice all the time. Doc Severinsen practices all the time. But, you know, I was singing back there with Chetty (ph) when "}
{"id": "795209500", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Jack Sheldon", "title": "Remembering Jazz Trumpeter, Singer And Actor Jack Sheldon", "question_index": 19, "text": "And how did you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I was about 14, 15. I was about 15 - or 16, I guess."}
{"id": "795209500", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Jack Sheldon", "title": "Remembering Jazz Trumpeter, Singer And Actor Jack Sheldon", "question_index": 20, "text": "How did you meet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, 'cause I was in Florida when I was 14. I was 16, and Chetty was about - I think about 18 or 19."}
{"id": "795209500", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Jack Sheldon", "title": "Remembering Jazz Trumpeter, Singer And Actor Jack Sheldon", "question_index": 21, "text": "Now how did you get to the West Coast from Florida, where you grew up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think at a place called the Showtime, which was on Sepulveda and Ventura Boulevard. And there was a jam session on Monday nights, and all the guys that were on the road would come in there. I got to"}
{"id": "795209500", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Jack Sheldon", "title": "Remembering Jazz Trumpeter, Singer And Actor Jack Sheldon", "question_index": 22, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my aunt came out here first from Florida, and she was a swimming teacher. Crystal Scarborough was her name. And she taught babies how to swim. And then we moved out here, and my mother started t"}
{"id": "795209500", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Jack Sheldon", "title": "Remembering Jazz Trumpeter, Singer And Actor Jack Sheldon", "question_index": 23, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my aunt came out here first from Florida, and she was a swimming teacher. Crystal Scarborough was her name. And she taught babies how to swim. And then we moved out here, and my mother started t"}
{"id": "795209500", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Jack Sheldon", "title": "Remembering Jazz Trumpeter, Singer And Actor Jack Sheldon", "question_index": 24, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And used to have Kelly in the pool with me, and Nat Cole would be walking around the pool smoking cigarettes. He was a chain-smoker. And I'd have Kelly sing (singing) when the blue of the night meets "}
{"id": "795209500", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Jack Sheldon", "title": "Remembering Jazz Trumpeter, Singer And Actor Jack Sheldon", "question_index": 25, "text": "How old were you when you started working professionally and when you started playing with other bands?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Slightly humorous. But I taught a lot of kids. I taught all of Paul Newman's kids. In fact, one of his daughters used to bite me on the ankle when I'd be talking to Joanne Woodward."}
{"id": "795209500", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Jack Sheldon", "title": "Remembering Jazz Trumpeter, Singer And Actor Jack Sheldon", "question_index": 26, "text": "I want to ask you something else about your sound. Do you think that there's a connection between the way you sing and the way you play trumpet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was 12 in Jacksonville, Fla. And I had just started playing the trumpet, and I started working with Jean Brandt's (ph) band at the Washington Hotel there. Everybody was gone in the war, and so I sta"}
{"id": "795209500", "date": "2020-01-10", "guest": "Jack Sheldon", "title": "Remembering Jazz Trumpeter, Singer And Actor Jack Sheldon", "question_index": 27, "text": "Jack Sheldon, thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I think so, yeah. Just, you know, all the wrong things I do on the trumpet I do with the voice, too. But I'm trying to eliminate that now and get - so I - you know, I want my pitch to be better an"}
{"id": "796222714", "date": "2020-01-14", "guest": "Michael Rothfeld", "title": "Book Details The 'Bottom-Feeders' And 'Fixers' Who Enabled Trump's Election", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The stories of the hush money payments to porn star Stormy Daniels and former Playboy model Karen McDougal to silence them about their affairs with Donald Trump were first reported in The Wall Street Journal by my guest, Joe Palazzolo and Michael Rothfeld. Last year, their \"Hush Money\" series won a Pulitzer Prize. Palazzolo and Rothfeld have expanded on that reporting in a new book called \"The Fixers: The Bottom-Feeders, Crooked Lawyers, Gossipmongers And Porn Stars Who Created The 45th President.\" The hush money payments were made on behalf of Donald Trump with Trump's knowledge during the 2016 presidential campaign. The National Enquirer bought McDougal's story with the purpose of preventing it from ever being published and preventing her from talking to anyone else in the media - catch and kill. The payout to silence Stormy Daniels was made by Michael Cohen, who was then Trump's personal attorney and is now in prison. In telling the story of the hush money Palazzolo and Rothfeld report on the transactional relationship that Trump developed with David Pecker, the publisher of the National Enquirer, the lengths to which Michael Cohen was willing to go to please Trump and how tabloids like the National Enquirer pay for stories by people who have dirt on celebrities. Joe Palazzolo, Michael Rothfeld, welcome to FRESH AIR. So your book opens in August of 2015, just a couple of months after Trump announces his run for the presidency. And so the book opens at a meeting with Trump and David Pecker, the publisher of the National Enquirer. And Trump wanted to know what Pecker could do to help with the campaign. How had they developed the kind of relationship where Donald Trump could have actually asked for such a favor?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "796222714", "date": "2020-01-14", "guest": "Michael Rothfeld", "title": "Book Details The 'Bottom-Feeders' And 'Fixers' Who Enabled Trump's Election", "question_index": 1, "text": "So let's get back to this meeting in August of 2015. Trump asks Pecker for help with the campaign. What does Trump ask for? What does Pecker offer to do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They had been - had a relationship going back 20 - more than 20 years since the '90s when David Pecker was running the National Enquirer. Actually, even prior to that, he was the head of Hachette maga"}
{"id": "796222714", "date": "2020-01-14", "guest": "Michael Rothfeld", "title": "Book Details The 'Bottom-Feeders' And 'Fixers' Who Enabled Trump's Election", "question_index": 2, "text": "And he's able to do that for Trump just a few months after this August meeting, and that had to do with a former doorman at Trump Tower. What was the story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Trump says, how can you help my campaign, and Pecker offers him a couple of different services that he can perform. One is to use the publications the National Enquirer and other tabloids to write neg"}
{"id": "796222714", "date": "2020-01-14", "guest": "Michael Rothfeld", "title": "Book Details The 'Bottom-Feeders' And 'Fixers' Who Enabled Trump's Election", "question_index": 3, "text": "Just in terms of what the Enquirer could deliver for Trump, you quote some of the headlines the Enquirer published during the campaign. And like, you know, just as a reminder, Hillary was - Hillary Clinton was Trump's opponent. So it was, like, Bill Clinton had brain damage. Hillary was a lesbian. Ted Cruz's father was linked to the JFK assassination. These are amazing headlines.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So a doorman - his name's Dino Sajudin - he comes in to the National Enquirer. He has a tip - he's a former doorman, like you said. And he says, I have overheard people talking at Trump - employees at"}
{"id": "796222714", "date": "2020-01-14", "guest": "Michael Rothfeld", "title": "Book Details The 'Bottom-Feeders' And 'Fixers' Who Enabled Trump's Election", "question_index": 4, "text": "And there were false positive stories, too. Like, they ran an interview with Donald Trump saying, quote, \"The billionaire businessman has quietly donated a huge chunk of his fortune to charity and still finds the time to remain a doting dad to his young son\" - exclamation point. You describe that as complete fantasy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah, they really are. And you would sort of think that the absurdity of them would kind of nullify them or at least make them meaningless or maybe they're not swaying people having much influen"}
{"id": "796222714", "date": "2020-01-14", "guest": "Michael Rothfeld", "title": "Book Details The 'Bottom-Feeders' And 'Fixers' Who Enabled Trump's Election", "question_index": 5, "text": "So let's get to the Stormy Daniels story. You describe how she parlayed her relationship with Trump, which included one night of sex, how she tried to parlay that into a business opportunity for herself. And this was at the time that \"The Apprentice\" was still very popular and Trump was, you know, testing the waters for a 2011 presidential bid. So what were her first steps in trying to parlay her relationship with Trump into money?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. The Washington Post reported that a lot of Trump's charitable claims were not true and the Enquirer was willing to essentially report whatever he might say if it was favorable to him. And in fac"}
{"id": "796222714", "date": "2020-01-14", "guest": "Michael Rothfeld", "title": "Book Details The 'Bottom-Feeders' And 'Fixers' Who Enabled Trump's Election", "question_index": 6, "text": "And how did Gina Rodriguez go about trying to sell it? 'Cause she was the one doing the negotiations.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she had - at the time, she had sort of recently become acquainted with a woman named Gina Rodriguez, who is herself a former porn actress and she had built a kind of a practice managing reality "}
{"id": "796222714", "date": "2020-01-14", "guest": "Michael Rothfeld", "title": "Book Details The 'Bottom-Feeders' And 'Fixers' Who Enabled Trump's Election", "question_index": 7, "text": "Do any of these stories pan out in 2011? Does she publish anyplace?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She's reaching out to her contacts. She's emailing people at the Bauer publications, so Life & Style and In Touch and and others. You know, basically, she's sending an email out saying, hey, I hav"}
{"id": "796222714", "date": "2020-01-14", "guest": "Michael Rothfeld", "title": "Book Details The 'Bottom-Feeders' And 'Fixers' Who Enabled Trump's Election", "question_index": 8, "text": "But then this story resurfaces. Stormy Daniels tries to sell it again. So how did they end up at the National Enquirer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. So Stormy Daniels does an interview with Life & Style which is a Bauer magazine, and she takes a lie detector test and she passes and so does her ex-husband and her friend. And they are prepar"}
{"id": "796222714", "date": "2020-01-14", "guest": "Michael Rothfeld", "title": "Book Details The 'Bottom-Feeders' And 'Fixers' Who Enabled Trump's Election", "question_index": 9, "text": "So after Michael Cohen paid the $130,000 in hush money, Donald Trump was supposed to pay back Cohen. Did Trump pay him back?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They had tried the National Enquirer as one of the outlets and the Enquirer - Dylan Howard, who knew Gina Rodriguez from Hollywood scandal stories, projected it and said, you know, maybe it's worth $1"}
{"id": "796222714", "date": "2020-01-14", "guest": "Michael Rothfeld", "title": "Book Details The 'Bottom-Feeders' And 'Fixers' Who Enabled Trump's Election", "question_index": 10, "text": "Because at this point - correct me if I'm wrong here - at this point, Cohen is made Trump's personal attorney, so the payments are concealed as payments to Trump's personal attorney.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he did pay him back. It took a little while, but starting in February of 2017, he started receiving monthly checks. And, you know, it was quite a bit more than $130,000 because they - you know, "}
{"id": "796222714", "date": "2020-01-14", "guest": "Michael Rothfeld", "title": "Book Details The 'Bottom-Feeders' And 'Fixers' Who Enabled Trump's Election", "question_index": 11, "text": "Michael Avenatti becomes her lawyer, and he's all over the media for a good deal of time, and he's getting documents and making them public, but he also writes a false narrative for her. He creates a false narrative for her. Can you tell us the difference between the narrative he helps create for Stormy Daniels and what the real story was?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And federal prosecutors, you know, they said actually Michael Cohen really didn't perform any legal work, so that was essentially just a phony agreement to disguise the repayment for Stormy Daniels."}
{"id": "796222714", "date": "2020-01-14", "guest": "Michael Rothfeld", "title": "Book Details The 'Bottom-Feeders' And 'Fixers' Who Enabled Trump's Election", "question_index": 12, "text": "It's so interesting to see how the characters in this are all making financial deals with each other, all trying to profit and all kind of scheming behind the other's back. I mean, you know, so, like, Stormy Daniels is trying to profit on her relationship with Trump and Avenatti is basically fleecing Stormy Daniels, right? Is that fair to say?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Michael Avenatti, when he comes in, tries to portray Stormy as speaking truth to power and in a way a victim. We had been doing this reporting that showed Stormy was trying to monetize her dalli"}
{"id": "796222714", "date": "2020-01-14", "guest": "Michael Rothfeld", "title": "Book Details The 'Bottom-Feeders' And 'Fixers' Who Enabled Trump's Election", "question_index": 13, "text": "When you started publishing stories about Stormy Daniels and the hush money, what kind of pushback did you get from the National Enquirer, from AMI, from Trump's people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But the larger point of the transactional nature of all of these events and in general of this side of Donald Trump's life which brought all of these people, we kind of call it the vulgar circus, righ"}
{"id": "796222714", "date": "2020-01-14", "guest": "Michael Rothfeld", "title": "Book Details The 'Bottom-Feeders' And 'Fixers' Who Enabled Trump's Election", "question_index": 14, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us my guests are Joe Palazzolo and Michael Rothfeld, two reporters who won a Pulitzer Prize in 2019 for their 2018 reporting on the Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal stories and the hush money that was paid by Trump and Michael Cohen. The book is called \"The Fixers: The Bottom-Feeders, Crooked Lawyers, Gossipmongers, And Porn Stars Who Created The 45th President.\" We'll be right back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, American Media - when we first published the stories about Stormy Daniels, we actually didn't know the extent of American Media's involvement in kind of brokering that deal, even though Michael "}
{"id": "796222714", "date": "2020-01-14", "guest": "Michael Rothfeld", "title": "Book Details The 'Bottom-Feeders' And 'Fixers' Who Enabled Trump's Election", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guests are Joe Palazzolo and Michael Rothfeld, who won a Pulitzer Prize last year for their 2018 reporting on the hush money payments to Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal, who had a relationship with Donald Trump. Their new book based on that reporting and extra reporting is called \"The Fixers: The Bottom-Feeders, Crooked Lawyers, Gossipmongers, And Porn Stars Who Created The 45th President.\" Let's talk about your reporting on Karen McDougal. How did you first get onto this story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, American Media - when we first published the stories about Stormy Daniels, we actually didn't know the extent of American Media's involvement in kind of brokering that deal, even though Michael "}
{"id": "796222714", "date": "2020-01-14", "guest": "Michael Rothfeld", "title": "Book Details The 'Bottom-Feeders' And 'Fixers' Who Enabled Trump's Election", "question_index": 16, "text": "So did Davidson encourage Karen McDougal, who had been a Playmate centerfold - did he encourage her to try to sell her story about her relationship with Trump?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was in October of 2016, very close to the election. And my editor - he was the head of the law bureau at the Wall Street Journal - Ashby Jones had gotten a tip. The tipster said, there's a guy goin"}
{"id": "796222714", "date": "2020-01-14", "guest": "Michael Rothfeld", "title": "Book Details The 'Bottom-Feeders' And 'Fixers' Who Enabled Trump's Election", "question_index": 17, "text": "My guests are Joe Palazzolo and Michael Rothfeld, authors of the new book \"The Fixers: The Bottom-Feeders, Crooked Lawyers, Gossipmongers, And Porn Stars Who Created The 45th President.\" We'll talk more after a break. And Maureen Corrigan will review a new novel that she says is getting the literary new year off to a good start. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they get connected - Keith and Karen get connected through a mutual acquaintance because, you know, Karen - actually, one of Karen's other friends was encouraging her to sell the story. There ha"}
{"id": "796222714", "date": "2020-01-14", "guest": "Michael Rothfeld", "title": "Book Details The 'Bottom-Feeders' And 'Fixers' Who Enabled Trump's Election", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Joe Palazzolo and Michael Rothfeld about their new book \"The Fixers: The Bottom-Feeders, Crooked Lawyers, Gossipmongers, And Porn Stars Who Created The 45th President.\" They shared a 2019 Pulitzer Prize for their reporting in The Wall Street Journal on the hush money payments to porn star Stormy Daniels and former Playboy model Karen McDougal to prevent them from going public about their affairs with Donald Trump. The National Enquirer paid Karen McDougal; Michael Cohen, who was then at the time Trump's personal attorney, paid Daniels. The new book expands on that reporting. The National Enquirer bought McDougal's story with the purpose of preventing it from ever being published and preventing her from talking to anyone else in the media - catch and kill. When we left off, we were talking about Karen McDougal's mixed feelings about selling her story. So Keith Davidson, after starting to represent Karen McDougal - and again, he is the lawyer who has experience helping clients profit from dirt on celebrities - he goes to the National Enquirer and tries to sell the story to them. Tell us about how that negotiation goes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they get connected - Keith and Karen get connected through a mutual acquaintance because, you know, Karen - actually, one of Karen's other friends was encouraging her to sell the story. There ha"}
{"id": "796222714", "date": "2020-01-14", "guest": "Michael Rothfeld", "title": "Book Details The 'Bottom-Feeders' And 'Fixers' Who Enabled Trump's Election", "question_index": 19, "text": "And then what?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He calls Dylan Howard, who - the editor of the National Enquirer, who he's also been dealing with for many years through these various scandals that he works with clients on. And Howard flies out to L"}
{"id": "796222714", "date": "2020-01-14", "guest": "Michael Rothfeld", "title": "Book Details The 'Bottom-Feeders' And 'Fixers' Who Enabled Trump's Election", "question_index": 20, "text": "So AMI's buying her story in order to suppress it - a catch and kill thing. But ABC is already onto the story. They've already started investigating it. So wasn't AMI concerned that ABC would go with what they had, that they'd have something to cast - you know, something that would be damaging to Trump?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, then what happens is Karen McDougal starts looking for other alternatives because her modeling career is kind of on the downswing, she wants - she's now a fitness buff, and she kind of wants to "}
{"id": "796222714", "date": "2020-01-14", "guest": "Michael Rothfeld", "title": "Book Details The 'Bottom-Feeders' And 'Fixers' Who Enabled Trump's Election", "question_index": 21, "text": "So the $150,000 in hush money that the Enquirer pays Karen McDougal - did the Enquirer expect to be reimbursed by Trump?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so Davidson, very soon after arranging for Karen to meet with ABC reporters, you know, he has them sign what is effectively an NDA - anything that's provided in those conversations can't be used"}
{"id": "796222714", "date": "2020-01-14", "guest": "Michael Rothfeld", "title": "Book Details The 'Bottom-Feeders' And 'Fixers' Who Enabled Trump's Election", "question_index": 22, "text": "So explain to us more what this document was that AMI asked Cohen to rip up but Cohen saved.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Michael Cohen told David Pecker that he would get repaid for that, and they start negotiating to have that repayment made. Michael Cohen sets up a shell company called Resolution Consultants on S"}
{"id": "796222714", "date": "2020-01-14", "guest": "Michael Rothfeld", "title": "Book Details The 'Bottom-Feeders' And 'Fixers' Who Enabled Trump's Election", "question_index": 23, "text": "And so the Enquirer - so American Media eventually asked Cohen to rip up that agreement because it could be incriminating for AMI because it could look like a campaign contribution?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So this was agreement - this was an agreement between Michael Cohen and Donald Trump and American Media. And basically, what it did was transfer the rights to Karen McDougal's story, which American Me"}
{"id": "796222714", "date": "2020-01-14", "guest": "Michael Rothfeld", "title": "Book Details The 'Bottom-Feeders' And 'Fixers' Who Enabled Trump's Election", "question_index": 24, "text": "So American Media and Trump want to cover up the Karen McDougal story. How does the story get out anyway?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So David Pecker, before he entered into the American Media - the deal with Karen McDougal, they had actually sought advice from a lawyer, a campaign finance expert. And he came away from that in"}
{"id": "796222714", "date": "2020-01-14", "guest": "Michael Rothfeld", "title": "Book Details The 'Bottom-Feeders' And 'Fixers' Who Enabled Trump's Election", "question_index": 25, "text": "And your story revealed which aspect of this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the Wall Street Journal gets the tip in October of 2016. And we immediately start kind of, you know, reporting around the one person in the story we know, who's Keith Davidson. Eventually, through "}
{"id": "796222714", "date": "2020-01-14", "guest": "Michael Rothfeld", "title": "Book Details The 'Bottom-Feeders' And 'Fixers' Who Enabled Trump's Election", "question_index": 26, "text": "Let's take a short break here. And then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guests are Joe Palazzolo and Michael Rothfeld, who won a Pulitzer Prize last year for their 2018 reporting on hush money payments to Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal. Joe Palazzolo is still with The Wall Street Journal. Michael Rothfeld is now with the New York Times. Their new book is called \"The Fixers: The Bottom-Feeders, Crooked Lawyers, Gossipmongers, And Porn Stars Who Created The 45th President.\" We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's - it revealed that American Media had paid Karen McDougal $150,000 for her story with no intention of publishing it. At that time, we didn't know the extent to which Donald Trump or Michael Coh"}
{"id": "796222714", "date": "2020-01-14", "guest": "Michael Rothfeld", "title": "Book Details The 'Bottom-Feeders' And 'Fixers' Who Enabled Trump's Election", "question_index": 27, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guests are Joe Palazzolo and Michael Rothfeld. They're the authors of the new book The Fixers: The Bottom-Feeders, Crooked Lawyers, Gossipmongers, And Porn Stars Who Created The 45th President.\" The book is an expansion of the reporting that they did in 2018 that won a 2019 Pulitzer Prize. The reporting was on hush money payments to Stormy Daniels and Karen McDougal. So when you started publishing your Karen McDougal story, what response did you get from all the parties involved - McDougal, her lawyer, the National Enquirer and American Media, Donald Trump, Michael Cohen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's - it revealed that American Media had paid Karen McDougal $150,000 for her story with no intention of publishing it. At that time, we didn't know the extent to which Donald Trump or Michael Coh"}
{"id": "796222714", "date": "2020-01-14", "guest": "Michael Rothfeld", "title": "Book Details The 'Bottom-Feeders' And 'Fixers' Who Enabled Trump's Election", "question_index": 28, "text": "So if you look at how Karen McDougal and Stormy Daniels tried to monetize the stories of their relationship with Trump and then you look at how the National Enquirer tried to buy Karen McDougal's silence and Michael Cohen tried to buy Stormy Daniels' silence - and then, like, McDougal and Daniels also had their lawyers, who were also trying to monetize the relationship. So who are the biggest losers here, and what did they lose, and are there any winners, outside of the truth emerging?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the National Enquirer told us that they did not buy a story about Karen McDougal to kill it and that they had paid her for magazine covers and health columns, none of which they had actually don"}
{"id": "796222714", "date": "2020-01-14", "guest": "Michael Rothfeld", "title": "Book Details The 'Bottom-Feeders' And 'Fixers' Who Enabled Trump's Election", "question_index": 29, "text": "I mean, you're winners.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, not..."}
{"id": "796222714", "date": "2020-01-14", "guest": "Michael Rothfeld", "title": "Book Details The 'Bottom-Feeders' And 'Fixers' Who Enabled Trump's Election", "question_index": 30, "text": "You uncovered a lot of this story, and we're all winners as a result of that. But...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, not..."}
{"id": "796222714", "date": "2020-01-14", "guest": "Michael Rothfeld", "title": "Book Details The 'Bottom-Feeders' And 'Fixers' Who Enabled Trump's Election", "question_index": 31, "text": "And financially, in terms of the characters in the story, who are the biggest winners and losers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, not to be sanctimonious about it, but, like, the whole reason for doing the story was to tell people what happened during the election that they didn't know about at the time when it was"}
{"id": "796222714", "date": "2020-01-14", "guest": "Michael Rothfeld", "title": "Book Details The 'Bottom-Feeders' And 'Fixers' Who Enabled Trump's Election", "question_index": 32, "text": "So the National Enquirer because of, like, your reporting and Ronan Farrow's reporting - Jeffrey Toobin reported on the Enquirer - other people as well have reported on the whole catch and kill aspect of the National Enquirer, both in this story and of course also in the Harvey Weinstein story, what is the state of the National Enquirer now and of its owner, American Media?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, you know, Michael Cohen, obviously, is serving a three-year sentence for, you know, crimes connected to the payment, among others. And Karen McDougal and Stormy Daniels, you know, maybe they got w"}
{"id": "796222714", "date": "2020-01-14", "guest": "Michael Rothfeld", "title": "Book Details The 'Bottom-Feeders' And 'Fixers' Who Enabled Trump's Election", "question_index": 33, "text": "And are Dylan Howard and David Pecker still in the positions they had during the election?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So right now the Enquirer is on the block. It's after - all of the reporting that you mentioned and even more recent reporting, the National Enquirer had reported on the affair of Amazon founder Jeff "}
{"id": "796222714", "date": "2020-01-14", "guest": "Michael Rothfeld", "title": "Book Details The 'Bottom-Feeders' And 'Fixers' Who Enabled Trump's Election", "question_index": 34, "text": "I want to thank you both for your reporting and for being a guest on our show. Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "David Pecker is still the chief executive of American Media right now. Dylan Howard has been moved over to a less sort of editorial role at American Media. He's kind of handling special projects for t"}
{"id": "796222714", "date": "2020-01-14", "guest": "Michael Rothfeld", "title": "Book Details The 'Bottom-Feeders' And 'Fixers' Who Enabled Trump's Election", "question_index": 35, "text": "Joe Palazzolo and Michael Rothfeld are the authors of the new book \"The Fixers: The Bottom-Feeders, Crooked Lawyers, Gossipmongers, And Porn Stars Who Created The 45th President.\" Palazzolo is a reporter for The Wall Street Journal. Rothfeld is now with The New York Times. After we take a short break, our book critic Maureen Corrigan will review the new novel \"American Dirt.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're going to talk about a trove of secret Iranian intelligence reports and cables that were leaked to the news organization The Intercept. They reveal the unique military and political role played by General Qassem Soleimani, who led Iran's elite Quds Force and oversaw Iran's proxy wars in Iraq and Syria. Soleimani is the general the U.S. killed earlier this month in a drone strike. The leaked documents also reveal how Iran has embedded itself in the politics of its neighbor Iraq by co-opting Iraqi leaders and buying off Iraqi agents who had worked for the Americans, getting them to cross over to the Iranian side and reveal American intelligence secrets. Last year, the U.S. Army released its official history of the Iraq War, which concluded that the only victor appeared to be an emboldened and expansionist Iran. These leaked documents help explain why. My guest is James Risen, senior national security correspondent for The Intercept. He's part of the team of reporters examining these documents. The Intercept shared the documents with The New York Times, and they published the first story simultaneously last November. Risen used to cover intelligence and national security for the Times and won two Pulitzers. He's also the author of the book \"State Of War: The Secret History Of The CIA And The Bush Administration.\" James Risen, welcome back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 1, "text": "Can you explain what the documents are that you acquired?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 2, "text": "One of the things of note in these documents is that General Soleimani, who the U.S. recently killed - you say he just, like, leaps off the pages.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. The Intercept received from an anonymous source a large file - about 700 pages - which amounts to several hundred reports and cables of the Iranian intelligence service, known as MOIS or Ministr"}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 3, "text": "And I was surprised to read you consider him, like, the - you consider him Iran's political fixer in the whole Middle East. I thought he was just more of a military leader, but he was both?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 4, "text": "But then the transportation minister basically rats out Soleimani...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I mean, that's one of the things that jumps off the page in these documents is - Qassem Soleimani was the commander of what's called the Quds Force of the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps of Ira"}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 5, "text": "Right? - by reporting him..", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 6, "text": "...To the rival group in Iran.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, and that's the..."}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 7, "text": "Soleimani's critics in Iran saw him as a showboat.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's the fascinating thing about these documents - is that it reveals that the MOIS, the professional spy service, hated Soleimani and they hated the IRGC. They saw them as the - you know, the rough"}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 8, "text": "While we're on the subject of Soleimani, this isn't from the documents, but you've reported on what Soleimani did in Iraq to try to stop the protests against the Iraqi government and tried to protect the Iraq - the then-Iraqi prime minister.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, and that becomes clear in these documents. There's one document where an MOIS officer is reporting back to Tehran, and at the top of the document, it says, do not share with the IRGC. And he's at"}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 9, "text": "How was he backing them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. The really interesting thing is that as the protest built in the fall of last year in Baghdad and other cities in Iraq, it became clear that the protesters in the streets were anti-Iranian. One"}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is journalist James Risen. He's the senior national security correspondent for The Intercept, formerly reported on national security and intelligence for The New York Times. We're talking about a trove of secret Iranian intelligence cables that were obtained by The Intercept and shared with The New York Times. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The prime minister Abdul-Mahdi was being pressured to resign in the face of these protests because he was seen as being too close to Iran. And Soleimani came to Baghdad, met with him and met with a lo"}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is James Risen, a senior national security correspondent for The Intercept and a former reporter for The New York Times on national security and intelligence. He won two Pulitzers at The New York Times. He's part of a team of reporters who reported on documents and an archive of secret Iranian intelligence cables that were obtained by The Intercept. This is hundreds of reports and cables written mainly between 2013 and 2015 by officers of Iran's Ministry of Intelligence and Security who were serving in the field in Iraq. Their reporting on this was published simultaneously by both The Intercept and The New York Times. So what did you learn about Soleimani's role in driving ISIS out of Iraq? And that's a goal that Iran and the U.S. shared, although...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The prime minister Abdul-Mahdi was being pressured to resign in the face of these protests because he was seen as being too close to Iran. And Soleimani came to Baghdad, met with him and met with a lo"}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 12, "text": "...We're on opposite sides of so many other issues.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 13, "text": "Wait. So you're saying that Soleimani really was responsible for overseeing the Iraqi forces that were trying to drive ISIS out of Iraq.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, that's the fascinating thing to me - is that, you know, the United States just killed a guy who, in many ways, was as responsible as anyone else for the defeat of ISIS in Iraq. The Shia "}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 14, "text": "The U.S. strike that killed Soleimani was in Baghdad. How much time did Soleimani actually spend in Iraq when he was overseeing the ground war in Iraq against ISIS?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, to a great degree. The Shiite militias, which, in many of the early - especially the early battles, took a real lead role in fighting ISIS on the ground, along with, you know, some Iraqi military"}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 15, "text": "You mentioned that Soleimani was responsible for some atrocities while fighting ISIS in Iraq. An example that you learned about from these leaked documents was in a place called Jurf al-Sakhar, and this was in late 2014. You described it as the first major victory over ISIS in Iraq. What did he do, and what were the consequences?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A lot. I mean, I don't know exactly, but he was - he was a constant presence in Iraq, in Baghdad. He was completely out in the open. He was never - he wasn't trying to hide. You know, he was a top gov"}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 16, "text": "You're saying no one was held to account for it, but the U.S. did kill Soleimani.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that was a classic example of the use of the Shia militias backed by the Quds Force to basically launch a campaign of ethnic - I think you have to call it ethnic cleansing, almost genocidal clea"}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 17, "text": "And you write that tens of thousands of people were displaced...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah. That's true, although it wasn't because of that. Anyway, it's - there was a document in the files where the Iranian ambassador to Iraq goes to Jurf al-Sakhar, and an MOIS officer accompani"}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 18, "text": "...From this town. You say that Iran's Intelligence Ministry was afraid that Iran's gains in Iraq were being squandered because Iraqis resented the Shia militias like the Quds Force...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 19, "text": "...That sponsored these kinds of massacres.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 20, "text": "And what are they protesting against?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Yeah. I mean, at first, it led to, you know, a lot of resentment among Sunnis. But now I think what you've seen is - in these protests in Iraq in the fall was a more general uprising by all Ira"}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 21, "text": "And what was Soleimani's role in running the Iraqi government?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, the - there's a lot of complaints they have against the government about corruption and the lack of services, but overall, behind that is a sense that they are angry at continued Irani"}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 22, "text": "The top Iranian official in Iraq?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was the No. 1 guy. He was the top Iranian official in the country."}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 23, "text": "So since Iran helped drive ISIS out of Iraq, why are Shia in Iraq protesting against Iran or Iranian influence now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In Iraq. What I didn't realize until we got into this was that the Iranian ambassador to Iraq was a former Quds Force officer who worked for Soleimani. You know, so the top Iranian diplomat worked for"}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 24, "text": "My guest is James Risen, senior national security correspondent for The Intercept who has been reporting on secret Iranian intelligence documents that were leaked to The Intercept. We'll talk more after a break, and David Bianculli will review the new BBC nature documentary, \"Seven Worlds, One Planet,\" which explores the land and creatures of each continent, starting with Australia. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They believe that the government, the Iraqi government, is deeply corrupt, that they're not getting public services that they should be getting based on the level of oil that they - wealth that they s"}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 25, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with James Risen, senior national security correspondent for The Intercept. We're talking about his reporting on secret Iranian intelligence documents that were leaked to The Intercept. The Intercept shared the documents with The New York Times, where Risen formerly reported on national security and intelligence and won two Pulitzer Prizes. The Intercept and The Times worked together and simultaneously published their first story on the documents in November. Those documents have become even more relevant in the aftermath of the U.S. drone strike that targeted and killed General Qassem Soleimani, who headed Iran's elite Quds Force and oversaw Iran's proxy wars in Iraq and Syria. The leaked documents reveal how Iran has embedded itself in the politics economy and military of its neighbor Iraq and reveals unintended consequences of the U.S. invasion of Iraq. So among the many things you learned from these leaked documents is that after the U.S. pulled out our troops in 2011, that a lot of the people who were working with the U.S., often secretly, felt abandoned by the U.S. and switched sides and told the Iranians secrets about American intelligence in Iraq.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They believe that the government, the Iraqi government, is deeply corrupt, that they're not getting public services that they should be getting based on the level of oil that they - wealth that they s"}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 26, "text": "So what are some of the things that you learn from these people who used to work with the U.S. and then felt abandoned when we pulled out and they had no more income from the U.S. so they switched sides and went to the Iranians? What did they tell the Iranians?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Yeah, I mean, there's a great story about an Iraqi who worked for a secret CIA program called AMAX (ph), which was a counterterrorism program. And basically, as you said, in 2011, he was left u"}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 27, "text": "Did they leak, like, where the safe houses were?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they told them everything about every individual from the CIA that they had worked with, every kind of program they'd done, every kind of technical secret that they knew. They gave them basicall"}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 28, "text": "Did they name names of people who...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure. Yeah, they told them exactly everything, and they..."}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 29, "text": "Let me quote what this guy says his boss said to tell the Iranians. \"Tell them we are at your service. Whatever you need is at their disposal. We are Shia and have a common enemy. We are now in conflict with ISIS, and we must cooperate to eliminate it. All of the Iraqi Army's intelligence - consider it yours. If you have a new laptop, give it to me so I can upload the program onto it.\" What program?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yeah. And then they - at the end, they say I swear - basically, I swear to God that I've told you everything I know and I will never again work for the Americans. And it's like a formal vow. What"}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 30, "text": "Wait. Shook their heads indicating, wow, that's crazy, or, no, we didn't do it, or, we don't know about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think that was a targeting program. It's fascinating. And I remember when we went to the U.S. government to get responses, they just kind of shook their heads. But this is something..."}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 31, "text": "Yeah. I mean, in one article of yours, you quote a recent two-volume history of the Iraq War published by the U.S. Army that details our campaign's missteps and its staggering cost in lives and money. And this report says - this report from the U.S. Army says that \"an emboldened and expansionist Iran appears to be the only victor...\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I'm not sure. I mean, I think it was like this sense that, well, you know, what are you going to do? It's - I think the American government kind of knows they've been had in Iraq by the "}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 32, "text": "\"...In the Iraq War.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 33, "text": "Do you think we're any closer now to a military conflict with Iran or do you think that Iraq is any closer now to a military conflict with Iran?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's the official U.S. Army history of the war in Iraq that was - its publication was delayed for a long time because it was kind of considered controversial within the army. And they finally "}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 34, "text": "So the prime minister is still aligned with Iran?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think - well, one of the things that's interesting to me is that Abdul-Mahdi, the prime minister of Iraq, who said he was going to resign in November, is still prime minister. The Parliament and the"}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 35, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us my guest is journalist James Risen. He is the senior national security correspondent for The Intercept, formerly reported on national security and intelligence for The New York Times, where he won two Pulitzer Prizes. He's part of a team of reporters who reported on documents in an archive of secret Iranian intelligence cables that were obtained by The Intercept. Let's take a short break and then we'll talk some more. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So where things go in Iraq is going to be fascinating. I think one of the things that a lot of people explain to me, which I think is fascinating, is that one reason why Soleimani had gained so "}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 36, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is James Risen. He's a senior national security correspondent for The Intercept and formerly reported on national security and intelligence for The New York Times, where he won two Pulitzers. He's part of a team of reporters who's reported on documents in an archive of secret Iranian intelligence cables obtained by The Intercept and then shared with The New York Times. These are hundreds of reports and cables written mainly between 2013 and '15 by officers of Iran's Ministry of Intelligence and Security who were serving in the field in Iraq. And this reporting was published simultaneously in The Intercept and The New York Times. So the U.S. killed General Soleimani, and the word that one uses to describe what they did to Soleimani is very loaded. If you say assassination, that we assassinated him, assassination is illegal. If you say it was a targeted killing, that's a different story. So the language is very charged.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So where things go in Iraq is going to be fascinating. I think one of the things that a lot of people explain to me, which I think is fascinating, is that one reason why Soleimani had gained so "}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 37, "text": "Assassination has been illegal since when? Assassinating a foreign leader.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 38, "text": "And this was the committee that was formed after the discoveries of how the U.S. tried to assassinate Castro and had their eyes on other political leaders in Latin America.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the United States, in the wake of the Church Committee in the mid-1970s, created a ban on assassinations. It's an executive order, 12333 I think it's the name of it. And it's never been taken of"}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 39, "text": "This is what made you suspicious when the Trump administration declared the Quds Force, which was led by Soleimani, and the Revolutionary Guard, which oversaw the Quds Force, when the Trump administration declared them terrorists groups. So by declaring them terrorist groups, do you think that kind of opened the door to killing Soleimani and legally justifying it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. The Church Committee was basically the first congressional investigation into CIA and FBI abuses in the post-war world. There was virtually no congressional oversight of the CIA before the Chur"}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 40, "text": "So you've described Soleimani as having been Iran's political representative in Iraq and in other parts of the Middle East in that he had a lot of political control in the Middle East, as well as military because he ran the Quds Force, the elite force from Iran. Hard guy to replace. Who is his replacement? What do you know about him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I believe that's probably part of the legal - the secret legal justification. I - you know, the, you know, in all these kind of cases what happens usually is that the Justice Department in the White H"}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 41, "text": "It's not like it was a cult group, and you killed the leader...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that's the biggest question, is why do they think that getting rid of one guy is going to make a real significant difference, when it's not a terrorist organization? It's a state. It'll be - y"}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 42, "text": "...And the cult has no leader anymore.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 43, "text": "He's a leader in a very large country and a very large government.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 44, "text": "Do you think the killing of Soleimani was a big setback for Iran?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think one of the closest - I mean, there's no person in the U.S. government who has the same kind of role that he did because he was - had such a hybrid role. But it's as if you're saying, you"}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 45, "text": "Getting back to the secret documents that you got from Iran, secret intelligence documents, my understanding is you don't really know who leaked it or why they leaked it. Is that correct?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's a - I don't know. And I think that's, to me, what's so dangerous about the decision to do it, is I don't think the U.S. knows, either. I don't think they know what the consequences are go"}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 46, "text": "How do you ensure that the documents are real before reporting on them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. We got it leaked to us, and then we were able to communicate - I was able to communicate with the source every once in a while. And we attempted to get together and meet, but he or she refused."}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 47, "text": "What is it like for you when you get your hands on something like this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that took a long time. We did a lot of verification of the documents. First, as you know, we translated them with different translators, who then checked each other's work. Then we did a lot of "}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 48, "text": "Well, James Risen, thank you so much for talking with us. It's a pleasure to talk with you again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's pretty amazing. I mean, it's - to me, this was phenomenal because it's the first leak of this kind from Iran or from a country like Iran. You know, we've had a lot of mass leaks over the last few"}
{"id": "796978484", "date": "2020-01-16", "guest": "James Risen", "title": "Leaked Intelligence Reports Reveal The Vast Power Iran Wields In Iraq", "question_index": 49, "text": "James Risen is senior national security correspondent for The Intercept. After we take a short break, David Bianculli will review the new BBC nature documentary series \"Seven Worlds, One Planet,\" exploring the land and creatures of each continent, starting with Australia. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Thank you for having me."}
{"id": "797001729", "date": "2020-01-17", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 0, "text": "Elaine Pagels, welcome to FRESH AIR. You write, many of us have left religious institutions behind and prefer to identify as spiritual, not religious. You say, I've done both, had faith and lost it, joined groups and left them. To my own surprise, I went back, wanting to understand what happened and to explore the stories, poetry, music and art that make up religious traditions. You grew up in a secular family, and you write religion actually made your father angry. Why?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, editor of the website TV Worth Watching, sitting in for Terry Gross. Elaine Pagels, a professor of religion at Princeton University, has made it her job to ask "}
{"id": "797001729", "date": "2020-01-17", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 1, "text": "Did you grow up a skeptic about religion?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it made him angry because he'd been raised by fiercely Presbyterian parents who apparently talked a great deal about hell and damnation, and he wanted to get out of that as soon as he could. So w"}
{"id": "797001729", "date": "2020-01-17", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 2, "text": "Well, you were born again at the age of 15 after some friends convinced you - you were living in Palo Alto, and some friends convinced you to go to San Francisco with them to hear Billy Graham as part of his crusade for Christ. What year do you think that was?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't grow up a skeptic. The family was culturally Protestant. So sometimes, my mother took us to a Methodist Church, which seemed to me well-meaning and, basically, fairly boring that particular c"}
{"id": "797001729", "date": "2020-01-17", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 3, "text": "You joined the other side.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was marvelous. It was at the end of the '50s, I think. I was a teenager. I didn't know what I was getting into. I just thought it might be interesting. And I found it enormously powerful. And tha"}
{"id": "797001729", "date": "2020-01-17", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 4, "text": "What did he say that struck you like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, born again - I mean, that was probably their worst nightmare - evangelical Christianity. What I realized is that there's a great deal of power in that kind of conviction that Billy Graham expres"}
{"id": "797001729", "date": "2020-01-17", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 5, "text": "And were there spiritual things that he said that spoke to you, as well?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first of all, he said that what he preached was going to be - sound very strange to intellectuals and academics. And that's the world I grew up in because my father was in that world. And it rea"}
{"id": "797001729", "date": "2020-01-17", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 6, "text": "So, you know, it's interesting that death tested your faith pretty soon. You know, you were looking to art and music and poetry for a sense of larger meaning, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. He also appealed completely to somebody who just turned 15. He said, now you can have a new life. You can be born again. You can break out of the confines of the world you live in - for me, that "}
{"id": "797001729", "date": "2020-01-17", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 7, "text": "And a good friend of yours named Paul was a painter, and he taught you about painting, and you were very close. And then he was killed in a car crash. He was a passenger...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "797001729", "date": "2020-01-17", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 8, "text": "...In the car. And that tested your faith because of things that your fellow Christian friends said to you. What were some of those things?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "797001729", "date": "2020-01-17", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 9, "text": "So a little detour here because this is the part of your story that intersects with Jerry Garcia. And I thought, what? Elaine Pagels knew Jerry Garcia before he was in The Grateful Dead? That just kind of shocked me. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I went back to my Evangelical friends. My friend Paul who was killed was 16 in high school. And when I went back to the evangelical church, my friends were very sympathetic, and they said, oh, that's "}
{"id": "797001729", "date": "2020-01-17", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 10, "text": "...Was he in that car accident?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "797001729", "date": "2020-01-17", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 11, "text": "You speculate in the book that The Grateful Dead was named in part because he survived this car crash and, you know, Paul did not. Do you have any evidence that that really was the source of the name of the band?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. He had been in Palo Alto, playing music, hanging out at various places - Ken Kesey's house up in Los Trancos Woods and in town. And he was older than the rest of us. But those of us in high schoo"}
{"id": "797001729", "date": "2020-01-17", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 12, "text": "OK. Let's take a break here. And then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Elaine Pagels. Her new book is called \"Why Religion?: A Personal Story.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I did speculate that. It seemed obvious to me. And then later, I read something about it. I never - I didn't see him after that, I mean, after he formed the group. That was years later. But I saw"}
{"id": "797001729", "date": "2020-01-17", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is religion scholar and professor at Princeton University Elaine Pagels. Her new book is called \"Why Religion?: A Personal Story.\" So a question that you've always had - and this question kind of resounds throughout your book - is, why does religion continue to exist? With all we know about science now, why does religion exist? And what do we want from it? It's not a question that you can answer in the course of an interview. But along those same lines, you know, you're a historian of religion. So whether you practice a specific religion or not, you are immersed in the text of Judaism, Christianity. Your late husband, Heinz Pagels, was a theoretical physicist and studied chaos theory. Can you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I did speculate that. It seemed obvious to me. And then later, I read something about it. I never - I didn't see him after that, I mean, after he formed the group. That was years later. But I saw"}
{"id": "797001729", "date": "2020-01-17", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 14, "text": "...Talk about some of the similarities and differences between how you approached similar questions about the workings of the world and finding meaning in life? - him, from his point of view as a theoretical physicist studying chaos theory and you, from your point of view studying the great religious texts or at least...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "797001729", "date": "2020-01-17", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 15, "text": "...Some of the great religious texts.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's..."}
{"id": "797001729", "date": "2020-01-17", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 16, "text": "I want to get back to your personal story. You and your husband had a baby after trying to conceive and then fertility treatment. So you gave birth to a son, but he was born with a serious heart problem that would require surgery after he reached the age of 1 and was strong enough to endure the surgery. The surgery seemed to go OK, but you later discovered that he had another fatal problem, pulmonary hypertension. You were told that that was fatal, that it would eventually, sooner or later, lead to an early death. Your son died when he was 6 1/2. So for 6 1/2 years, you loved your son knowing that he wouldn't live long. And instead of planning for his future - when you looked into the future, you saw his death. And when he died, you felt guilty, even though it sounds like you did everything to give him the maximum amount of love and care. Why do you think you felt guilty?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The question I started asking - after I'd left that church for years, I thought there's something powerful there that - what was it? Was it about Christianity? Was it about religion? What was it? A pa"}
{"id": "797001729", "date": "2020-01-17", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 17, "text": "After your son died, some people said to you, your faith must have sustained you. What was your reaction when people said that to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a good question because parents who are given a very difficult diagnosis about a child will do anything. And also physicians will do anything. They go to extreme lengths to deal with trying to "}
{"id": "797001729", "date": "2020-01-17", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 18, "text": "In the story of Jesus, you know, the story is that God sacrificed the life of his son. So put that in your words.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When people said that, I thought, I don't know what you're talking about. I've never felt further than anything they were calling faith then at a time of intense grief. That felt extremely remote to m"}
{"id": "797001729", "date": "2020-01-17", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 19, "text": "On the first anniversary of your husband's death, you went to Colorado, where he was killed in a mountain climbing accident and where you used to summer, and you meditated with the Trappist monks who you'd befriended there. And you say you used to have a tape loop in your mind of your husband falling from the cliff toward the rocks below. And that's where the tape would stop and then start over again. So you had this constant image of him falling toward the rocks, but that's as far as the image went.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I remember after our son died, I went to the Church of the Heavenly Rest in New York to talk to people there about the service that we would have. And I heard somebody preparing for Easter - it "}
{"id": "797001729", "date": "2020-01-17", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 20, "text": "But when you were meditating with the Trappist monks, that image in your mind continued, and you actually saw in your mind your husband hitting the rocks. What do you think it was about meditating with the monks that furthered that image? And what was it like to live with that image as opposed to having it ending before the moment of impact?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "797001729", "date": "2020-01-17", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 21, "text": "So once you had that kind of image completed with the moment of impact and the blood, did the tape loop stop?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a good question. That tape loop began as soon as I heard of the accident. It seemed to go - it seemed to flip through my imagination every few seconds and then every five seconds and maybe 10 o"}
{"id": "797001729", "date": "2020-01-17", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 22, "text": "Elaine Pagels, a professor of religion at Princeton University, speaking to Terry Gross in 2018. Her book, \"Why Religion?: A Personal Story,\" comes out next week in paperback. After a break, we'll continue their conversation. Also we remember Ram Dass, the American spiritual teacher who died last month at age 88. And our critic at large, John Powers, looks at the work of Italian filmmaker Federico Fellini, who was born 100 years ago this month. I'm David Bianculli, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's an interesting question, Terry. I hadn't thought of it. It certainly was never as obsessive as it was before. I don't go through that tape loop now."}
{"id": "797001729", "date": "2020-01-17", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 23, "text": "You write, we blame ourselves when we're suffering. Suffering feels like punishment, like we're being punished for something. Did you go through that?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's 2018 interview with Elaine Pagels. She's a professor of religion at Princeton and author of the book \"Why Religion"}
{"id": "797001729", "date": "2020-01-17", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 24, "text": "So you've spoken of meditation, of prayer. Where are you now in terms of your religious life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", it's rather powerful. And he said, there's another response that this masks, which is also anger. And he talked about that. So the turmoil of feelings is very complicated, as anyone in that situatio"}
{"id": "797001729", "date": "2020-01-17", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 25, "text": "So you find the stories powerful and meaningful, but you don't believe in God, per se. Is that a good description?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I love my work because it allows me to explore the religious life of countless people in countless ages, in different traditions. I find that there are important elements of my experience that resonat"}
{"id": "797001729", "date": "2020-01-17", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 26, "text": "So when you describe your version of religion as a practice, are there things - are there rituals or ceremonies or prayers from whatever religion that is a part of your practice, or do you see, like, scholarship as being the practice - like, understanding and making connections as being the practice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't - people ask about believing in God. You know, Terry, I think that belief is overrated. Talking about religions as if they were about belief takes an image that's basically forged in Christian"}
{"id": "797001729", "date": "2020-01-17", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 27, "text": "You end your book with a Jewish prayer. Blessed art thou, Lord God of the universe, that you have brought us alive to see this day. What does that mean to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I love scholarship and research. It's a wonderful part of my life. I go to an Episcopal church often. I love the music. I - the person who's the priest there is a man of spiritual depth, which I dee"}
{"id": "797001729", "date": "2020-01-17", "guest": "Elaine Pagels", "title": "'Why Religion?' Asks 'How Hearts Can Heal' After Tragedy", "question_index": 28, "text": "Well, Elaine Pagels, I want to thank you so much for talking with us and for reflecting so much about your life, your grief, the role of religion in your life as a scholar and just as a person. And thank you for writing your book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I wanted to find an alternative to that, to find a way to live with hope and joy and courage. And that prayer speaks to coming out of that kind of isolation and fear. It speaks about gratitude for h"}
{"id": "797003970", "date": "2020-01-17", "guest": "Ram Dass", "title": "Remembering Spiritual Leader Ram Dass", "question_index": 0, "text": "Can we go back a few - a bunch of years?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. In the early 1960s, Richard Alpert was a Harvard professor of psychology conducting clinical research into the use of psychedelics. But then he and his colleague Timothy Leary were "}
{"id": "797003970", "date": "2020-01-17", "guest": "Ram Dass", "title": "Remembering Spiritual Leader Ram Dass", "question_index": 1, "text": "Let's go back to the early '60s, when you were Richard Alpert. And you were a professor of psychology at Harvard University and were one of the first people - one of the very first East Coast people to start experimenting with LSD. What use were you putting it to in your official capacity in the university?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. In the early 1960s, Richard Alpert was a Harvard professor of psychology conducting clinical research into the use of psychedelics. But then he and his colleague Timothy Leary were "}
{"id": "797003970", "date": "2020-01-17", "guest": "Ram Dass", "title": "Remembering Spiritual Leader Ram Dass", "question_index": 2, "text": "So you started using LSD as part of your academic research. But once you started actually taking LSD yourself, that academic research no longer seemed relevant.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, is - I'm a research psychologist. And that's a study of the mind, psyche logos. And these chemicals are incredible in overriding habitual ways of seeing the universe and allowing a fresh way of "}
{"id": "797003970", "date": "2020-01-17", "guest": "Ram Dass", "title": "Remembering Spiritual Leader Ram Dass", "question_index": 3, "text": "You and Timothy Leary at Harvard started using LSD. And then Ken Kesey on the West Coast started using it, I think in very different ways and a different setting. Did you have any conflicts with Kesey about what LSD should mean in the society, how it should be used, who should be taking it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'll tell you, it was because we did studies to show - and I think that it's - painful to me that in our zeal to say no to drugs, we have not differentiated between the tryptamines, for example,"}
{"id": "797003970", "date": "2020-01-17", "guest": "Ram Dass", "title": "Remembering Spiritual Leader Ram Dass", "question_index": 4, "text": "Well, eventually you went to India, studied with a teacher who became your spiritual teacher. Can you tell us something about him and about the kind of spiritual path you took with him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we were somewhere in the middle because there were - I mean, we had Aldous Huxley and Alan Watts and all these people. There was a community of us that were researching. And in a way, we were sa"}
{"id": "797003970", "date": "2020-01-17", "guest": "Ram Dass", "title": "Remembering Spiritual Leader Ram Dass", "question_index": 5, "text": "I want to ask you a question about your father who we were talking about earlier. He died in the past year. You had been living with him when you weren't on the road and helping to take care of him. He - I don't know how he was when he died, but at one point in his life, he was a wealthy man. Was there an inheritance, and how did you decide to use it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, meeting him was - the power of that initially was that everything that I took LSD to touch in my being, I realized he was. In fact, he actually took 900 micrograms of LSD, and nothing happened t"}
{"id": "797003970", "date": "2020-01-17", "guest": "Ram Dass", "title": "Remembering Spiritual Leader Ram Dass", "question_index": 6, "text": "So you never told him that you weren't going to personally...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My guru said to me - early on, he said, your father has money? I said, yes. He said, he going to leave it to you? I said, well, he's going to leave me a portion of it. He said, you're not to accept yo"}
{"id": "797003970", "date": "2020-01-17", "guest": "Ram Dass", "title": "Remembering Spiritual Leader Ram Dass", "question_index": 7, "text": "...Accept it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "797003970", "date": "2020-01-17", "guest": "Ram Dass", "title": "Remembering Spiritual Leader Ram Dass", "question_index": 8, "text": "So you thought it was OK to not tell him the complete truth about this. There's times that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I felt that that would be hurting him."}
{"id": "797003970", "date": "2020-01-17", "guest": "Ram Dass", "title": "Remembering Spiritual Leader Ram Dass", "question_index": 9, "text": "Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He never asked me."}
{"id": "797003970", "date": "2020-01-17", "guest": "Ram Dass", "title": "Remembering Spiritual Leader Ram Dass", "question_index": 10, "text": "Not wanting something from you - that's what you said you felt...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He just assumed. But there was some subtle thing that happened between us because the minute my guru said that, that money no longer was mine. And in some deep psychological way, that changed my relat"}
{"id": "797003970", "date": "2020-01-17", "guest": "Ram Dass", "title": "Remembering Spiritual Leader Ram Dass", "question_index": 11, "text": "...Towards your teacher - that he didn't want anything from you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "797003970", "date": "2020-01-17", "guest": "Ram Dass", "title": "Remembering Spiritual Leader Ram Dass", "question_index": 12, "text": "That's very important to you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "797003970", "date": "2020-01-17", "guest": "Ram Dass", "title": "Remembering Spiritual Leader Ram Dass", "question_index": 13, "text": "Thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's quite an art, isn't it? Yeah, it's quite an art."}
{"id": "798513601", "date": "2020-01-22", "guest": "Terry Jones", "title": "Remembering 'Monty Python' Star Terry Jones", "question_index": 0, "text": "You know, I've always wondered, watching the Monty Python TV shows and also movies like \"The Life Of Brian,\" how come each member of the cast was never identified with the characters that they played?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Brian Cohen) I don't really want to, Mom."}
{"id": "798513601", "date": "2020-01-22", "guest": "Terry Jones", "title": "Remembering 'Monty Python' Star Terry Jones", "question_index": 1, "text": "How would you describe the types of roles that you played when you were with Monty Python?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I suppose it really came about because when we started doing Python, we very much felt ourselves as being an ensemble group. And we were sort of - we didn't really want to identify ourselves as "}
{"id": "798513601", "date": "2020-01-22", "guest": "Terry Jones", "title": "Remembering 'Monty Python' Star Terry Jones", "question_index": 2, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was the thing that I didn't - that was really why I ended up doing all the women because people - the others got fed up with playing women. So by - my voice does tend to go out rather easily."}
{"id": "798513601", "date": "2020-01-22", "guest": "Terry Jones", "title": "Remembering 'Monty Python' Star Terry Jones", "question_index": 3, "text": "You did a lot of writing for Monty Python, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's the Welsh, you know. You know, we sort of started trying to - as we went on, we started trying to cast against type in a way and sort of do things that we were - you know, that's maybe John - a p"}
{"id": "798513601", "date": "2020-01-22", "guest": "Terry Jones", "title": "Remembering 'Monty Python' Star Terry Jones", "question_index": 4, "text": "What are some of the favorite sketches that you wrote?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm hmm."}
{"id": "798513601", "date": "2020-01-22", "guest": "Terry Jones", "title": "Remembering 'Monty Python' Star Terry Jones", "question_index": 5, "text": "Oh, the \"The Lumberjack Song?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- quite often you can't tell which is which. I remember writing the lumberjack sketch with Mike."}
{"id": "798513601", "date": "2020-01-22", "guest": "Terry Jones", "title": "Remembering 'Monty Python' Star Terry Jones", "question_index": 6, "text": "Oh, that's one of my favorites.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "798513601", "date": "2020-01-22", "guest": "Terry Jones", "title": "Remembering 'Monty Python' Star Terry Jones", "question_index": 7, "text": "Could you sing some of it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". We never get out with a song. So Mike and I just sort of sat down and wrote \"The Lumberjack Song\" sort of line by line kind of thing."}
{"id": "798513601", "date": "2020-01-22", "guest": "Terry Jones", "title": "Remembering 'Monty Python' Star Terry Jones", "question_index": 8, "text": "What was your approach to writing? Would you just sit around and free associate?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) He's a lumberjack, and he's OK. He sleeps all night, and he works all day. He's a lumberjack, and he's OK. Sleeps all night and he works all day."}
{"id": "798513601", "date": "2020-01-22", "guest": "Terry Jones", "title": "Remembering 'Monty Python' Star Terry Jones", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's a bit like that. I mean, it was very much a sort of 9 till 5 job, you know, Terry."}
{"id": "798513601", "date": "2020-01-22", "guest": "Terry Jones", "title": "Remembering 'Monty Python' Star Terry Jones", "question_index": 10, "text": "When you were with Monty Python, you first started to get into directing, which you're doing more of now. Remember all those film inserts in Monty Python for the TV show?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're sort of getting up, sitting in front of a blank piece of paper and trying to sort of have some inspiration. And usually, I didn't know where it comes from. I remember with the Mr. Creosote sket"}
{"id": "798513601", "date": "2020-01-22", "guest": "Terry Jones", "title": "Remembering 'Monty Python' Star Terry Jones", "question_index": 11, "text": "Did you direct those?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "798513601", "date": "2020-01-22", "guest": "Terry Jones", "title": "Remembering 'Monty Python' Star Terry Jones", "question_index": 12, "text": "You know, I figured that all of you who were in Monty Python probably came from very straight-laced, goal-oriented, disciplined middle-class families. Is that right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. What happened was that - I suppose when Mike and I sort of - one of the reasons why we got into performing was that we originally started as writers on television, and we gradually began to realiz"}
{"id": "798513601", "date": "2020-01-22", "guest": "Terry Jones", "title": "Remembering 'Monty Python' Star Terry Jones", "question_index": 13, "text": "What about you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I suppose so. Except that..."}
{"id": "798513601", "date": "2020-01-22", "guest": "Terry Jones", "title": "Remembering 'Monty Python' Star Terry Jones", "question_index": 14, "text": "You went to Oxford, though, didn't you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Things tend not to be quite so goal-oriented in England. It's not quite the same as over here. But certainly sort of - a very straight, middle-class - lower-middle-class families. My dad was a bank"}
{"id": "798513601", "date": "2020-01-22", "guest": "Terry Jones", "title": "Remembering 'Monty Python' Star Terry Jones", "question_index": 15, "text": "And you had planned on becoming an English teacher, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "798513601", "date": "2020-01-22", "guest": "Terry Jones", "title": "Remembering 'Monty Python' Star Terry Jones", "question_index": 16, "text": "Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, not really. I sort of grew up being a poet. Really from age about 7 onwards, I was always going to be a poet, actually, Terry."}
{"id": "798513601", "date": "2020-01-22", "guest": "Terry Jones", "title": "Remembering 'Monty Python' Star Terry Jones", "question_index": 17, "text": "Did that lead you into comedy, this realization?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I learned this lesson. And the only thing, you know, I could possibly see myself qualified for doing after sort of, you know, all that schooling was teaching while, you know, becoming an academic of"}
{"id": "799228786", "date": "2020-01-24", "guest": "Laurence Rees", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 75th Anniversary Of The Liberation Of Auschwitz", "question_index": 0, "text": "Why have you made it your life work to bear witness?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Today we're commemorating the 75th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz. Next, we'll hear Terry's interview with Holocaust survivor and Nobel Peace Prize-winner Elie Wiesel, who died in 2016 at "}
{"id": "799228786", "date": "2020-01-24", "guest": "Laurence Rees", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 75th Anniversary Of The Liberation Of Auschwitz", "question_index": 1, "text": "You know, I think that it's almost a human instinct to let time dim memories of horror and tragedy. Have you fought that in a way? Have you tried to keep those memories alive so that you can continue to communicate about them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What else could one do, having gone through certain events? I believe a human being, if he or she wants to remain human, then he or she must do something with what we have seen, endured, witnessed. No"}
{"id": "799228786", "date": "2020-01-24", "guest": "Laurence Rees", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 75th Anniversary Of The Liberation Of Auschwitz", "question_index": 2, "text": "You once described Auschwitz as the defeat of the intellect that wants to find a meaning, with a capital M, in history. Do you feel that, nevertheless, you've been really spending your life trying to find some meaning of the Holocaust, some larger meaning you could tell us about man or about God?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Naturally. I mean, naturally, the human being wants to forget pain. In this case, although, for most of those who went through the experience during the war, they want to remember more and more and mo"}
{"id": "799228786", "date": "2020-01-24", "guest": "Laurence Rees", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 75th Anniversary Of The Liberation Of Auschwitz", "question_index": 3, "text": "I think when you were in the camps, you saw some religious people stop praying and saw people who had not been observant turn to God. You had been very observant and very immersed in the religious texts when you were young, before you were deported to the concentration camps. How did your experiences and your survival in the camps change your own experience of religion?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'll tell you, all the questions I had remain open. I really don't believe that I found any answer to any one of the questions I had. I don't know the meaning. I don't know why it happened. I don't kn"}
{"id": "799228786", "date": "2020-01-24", "guest": "Laurence Rees", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 75th Anniversary Of The Liberation Of Auschwitz", "question_index": 4, "text": "Have you gone back to the religious texts that you were reading when you were young?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the change - to the extent that it occurred - did not occur there. It's afterwards that the problems became urgent. Inside that universe, we continued praying. We continued believing. We continu"}
{"id": "799228786", "date": "2020-01-24", "guest": "Laurence Rees", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 75th Anniversary Of The Liberation Of Auschwitz", "question_index": 5, "text": "This is in the camps.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I never stopped reading or studying. Even inside that universe, I studied. I had a teacher there with name I never knew and whose face I hardly saw. But he was a teacher, the head of a Talmudic school"}
{"id": "799228786", "date": "2020-01-24", "guest": "Laurence Rees", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 75th Anniversary Of The Liberation Of Auschwitz", "question_index": 6, "text": "In your first novel, \"Night...\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Inside - in Auschwitz. So we studied. They kept on studying from morning to evening. And after the war, the first thing I wanted was a book, was a Talmudic treatise. I never stopped studying. That pro"}
{"id": "799228786", "date": "2020-01-24", "guest": "Laurence Rees", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 75th Anniversary Of The Liberation Of Auschwitz", "question_index": 7, "text": "I don't know why I think of it as a novel.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Night\" was not a novel. It was a memoir."}
{"id": "799228786", "date": "2020-01-24", "guest": "Laurence Rees", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 75th Anniversary Of The Liberation Of Auschwitz", "question_index": 8, "text": "I think of think of it as a very autobiographical novel, but...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no. Every word..."}
{"id": "799228786", "date": "2020-01-24", "guest": "Laurence Rees", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 75th Anniversary Of The Liberation Of Auschwitz", "question_index": 9, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is autobiography."}
{"id": "799228786", "date": "2020-01-24", "guest": "Laurence Rees", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 75th Anniversary Of The Liberation Of Auschwitz", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yeah. Well, I - then I guess I was going to ask you about your religious teacher who narrowly escaped from being murdered with hundreds or thousands of other Jews in the forest by the SS. And he somehow managed to escape and come back to your village to warn people about what was happening, and no one would listen.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Every word is true."}
{"id": "799228786", "date": "2020-01-24", "guest": "Laurence Rees", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 75th Anniversary Of The Liberation Of Auschwitz", "question_index": 11, "text": "We're getting back to the question of madness. I think a lot of people in your village just assumed he'd lost his mind and was making up - you know, was having visions or something, that this couldn't possibly have happened.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We didn't listen because he was a simple man. He was a beetle. Had he been an important person, I think some people would have listened. What is so extraordinary is when we remember today the silence,"}
{"id": "799228786", "date": "2020-01-24", "guest": "Laurence Rees", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 75th Anniversary Of The Liberation Of Auschwitz", "question_index": 12, "text": "Did you do anything to mentally prepare for what was in store when your father told you that the next day the whole village was going to be deported, the whole ghetto was going to be deported?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR, and we're commemorating the 75th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz. We're listening to Terry's interview with Holocaust survivor and Nobel Peace Prize winner Elie Wiesel re"}
{"id": "799228786", "date": "2020-01-24", "guest": "Laurence Rees", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 75th Anniversary Of The Liberation Of Auschwitz", "question_index": 13, "text": "You've described yourself as having been very weak and sickly when you were young. I know you think of yourself as having survived purely by chance. Did you learn things, though, to help you survive when you were in the camps?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. We didn't know. See; Hungarian Jewry was deported at such a pace. Everything came so fast. The Hungarians allowed the Germans to come in in March. The end of May, all the Jews were out already in "}
{"id": "799228786", "date": "2020-01-24", "guest": "Laurence Rees", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 75th Anniversary Of The Liberation Of Auschwitz", "question_index": 14, "text": "Did you know when you got out of the camps that you wanted to write?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no. Not at all. I was the wrong person, the wrong candidate for survival. I was always weak, as you said, and disarmed, cowardly. I would never try to do anything, which was not what I could have "}
{"id": "799228786", "date": "2020-01-24", "guest": "Laurence Rees", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 75th Anniversary Of The Liberation Of Auschwitz", "question_index": 15, "text": "Why 10 years? Why not five years? Why not one year? No, seriously. What made you think..", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I knew that I was going to write before I entered the camps. I come from a tradition, from the Jewish tradition, we believe - which believes in words, in language, in communication. And already "}
{"id": "799228786", "date": "2020-01-24", "guest": "Laurence Rees", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 75th Anniversary Of The Liberation Of Auschwitz", "question_index": 16, "text": "...That 10 years is what you needed to really know what it was you wanted to say and what words you wanted to say it with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't..."}
{"id": "799228786", "date": "2020-01-24", "guest": "Laurence Rees", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 75th Anniversary Of The Liberation Of Auschwitz", "question_index": 17, "text": "Did you actually have an anniversary where like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, 10 is a biblical figure, I know. And the - it's a good figure, why not? I cannot tell you that I got up one morning and decided that - let's see, that five or six or seven. It entered my mind - "}
{"id": "799228786", "date": "2020-01-24", "guest": "Laurence Rees", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 75th Anniversary Of The Liberation Of Auschwitz", "question_index": 18, "text": "...The 10th - really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "799228786", "date": "2020-01-24", "guest": "Laurence Rees", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 75th Anniversary Of The Liberation Of Auschwitz", "question_index": 19, "text": "And that day you sat down to write.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "799228786", "date": "2020-01-24", "guest": "Laurence Rees", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 75th Anniversary Of The Liberation Of Auschwitz", "question_index": 20, "text": "And is that when you started to write \"Night?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "799228786", "date": "2020-01-24", "guest": "Laurence Rees", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 75th Anniversary Of The Liberation Of Auschwitz", "question_index": 21, "text": "And looking back, do you think that this was definitely the right thing to do, to wait those 10 years? In what ways were you changed as a witness and as a writer during those 10 years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wrote \"Night,\" yes. That's when I wrote \"Night,\" on April 11, 1955, which is 10 years later."}
{"id": "799228786", "date": "2020-01-24", "guest": "Laurence Rees", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 75th Anniversary Of The Liberation Of Auschwitz", "question_index": 22, "text": "In one of your essays, you wrote that after the war, you deliberately avoided all contact with Germans and that their presence sickened you physically. Did that change? And if so, what changed that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Maybe I didn't change, but the words in me changed. They grew. you know, Words have strange destiny, too. They grow, they get old, they die, they come back. Words can be turned into spears. They can b"}
{"id": "799228786", "date": "2020-01-24", "guest": "Laurence Rees", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks The 75th Anniversary Of The Liberation Of Auschwitz", "question_index": 23, "text": "The generations of survivors are getting older. The older generation of survivors is no longer with us. Are you concerned about what's going to happen after the generations of survivors pass on, like, who will be around to actually speak the memories?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It did. But I didn't want to go back to Germany, really. I went once because I didn't want to judge people. I went once in the early '60s to do a piece for commentary. And I realized that every person"}
{"id": "800050832", "date": "2020-01-27", "guest": "Jim Lehrer", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'PBS NewsHour' Host Jim Lehrer", "question_index": 0, "text": "You have been the subject of many interviews since your heart attack, really, in 1983 and then since the writing of your plays and your new novel. Have you learned a lot about interviewing from being an interviewee yourself?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Jim Lehrer, the respected journalist and a nightly fixture on PBS for more than three decades, died Thursday at his home in Washington. He was 85. Lehrer is best-known for co-anchor"}
{"id": "800050832", "date": "2020-01-27", "guest": "Jim Lehrer", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'PBS NewsHour' Host Jim Lehrer", "question_index": 1, "text": "Well, do you tell the people who are appearing on your program to give you short answers", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have, I think. I - MacNeil says, I think correctly, that I am a terrible interviewee because I give very long answers. In fact, as he said, you know, Lehrer, if you were ever on our program, we'd ne"}
{"id": "800050832", "date": "2020-01-27", "guest": "Jim Lehrer", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'PBS NewsHour' Host Jim Lehrer", "question_index": 2, "text": ", and how do you stop them if the answers...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have, I think. I - MacNeil says, I think correctly, that I am a terrible interviewee because I give very long answers. In fact, as he said, you know, Lehrer, if you were ever on our program, we'd ne"}
{"id": "800050832", "date": "2020-01-27", "guest": "Jim Lehrer", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'PBS NewsHour' Host Jim Lehrer", "question_index": 3, "text": "...Are long?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "800050832", "date": "2020-01-27", "guest": "Jim Lehrer", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'PBS NewsHour' Host Jim Lehrer", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What I tell the folks to do is to give their best answer. If it's short, that's fine. If it's long, that's fine. I can always interrupt them. I interrupt people for a living. That's what I tell them. "}
{"id": "800050832", "date": "2020-01-27", "guest": "Jim Lehrer", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'PBS NewsHour' Host Jim Lehrer", "question_index": 5, "text": "Hey; thanks a lot.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, if I'm going..."}
{"id": "800050832", "date": "2020-01-27", "guest": "Jim Lehrer", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'PBS NewsHour' Host Jim Lehrer", "question_index": 6, "text": "This answer's too long. No, I'm kidding.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, right. I mean, I've come - if you asked me the story of my life and if it takes two hours to tell you the story of my life, I think it takes two hours. And it's your job as the professional to c"}
{"id": "800050832", "date": "2020-01-27", "guest": "Jim Lehrer", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'PBS NewsHour' Host Jim Lehrer", "question_index": 7, "text": "Just thought I'd try that out, see what happened", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I know it is."}
{"id": "800050832", "date": "2020-01-27", "guest": "Jim Lehrer", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'PBS NewsHour' Host Jim Lehrer", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I know it is."}
{"id": "800050832", "date": "2020-01-27", "guest": "Jim Lehrer", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'PBS NewsHour' Host Jim Lehrer", "question_index": 9, "text": "You've had to interview many politicians over the years, and I think that is always so difficult because politicians give you answers, but they're not necessarily answers to the questions you've asked. I don't mean you in particular.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "See, it doesn't work with me. That's - it feels right. But we set our people - our guests are very close to us, and there's direct eyeball-to-eyeball contact. So that - so you try to confine the situa"}
{"id": "800050832", "date": "2020-01-27", "guest": "Jim Lehrer", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'PBS NewsHour' Host Jim Lehrer", "question_index": 10, "text": "But in general, what are some of the techniques you've come up with for actually getting an answer to the question that you want answered because you're just not necessarily going to get it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I know."}
{"id": "800050832", "date": "2020-01-27", "guest": "Jim Lehrer", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'PBS NewsHour' Host Jim Lehrer", "question_index": 11, "text": "You know, you strike me as one of the few news anchors on television - I mean, you and MacNeil, really - who do more than just read the news while the newscast is on. Does the emphasis that American news viewers put on news anchors on commercial news seem a little absurd to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, there's only one technique that works, and that's to have enough time to ask the question a second time and then a third time and maybe a fourth time. And then, if Billy Bob Senator isn't going"}
{"id": "800050832", "date": "2020-01-27", "guest": "Jim Lehrer", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'PBS NewsHour' Host Jim Lehrer", "question_index": 12, "text": "Right", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It seems incredibly absurd to me. I don't understand it. I do - I simply do not understand the value that is placed on the ability of somebody to look into a television camera and read a teleprompter."}
{"id": "800050832", "date": "2020-01-27", "guest": "Jim Lehrer", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'PBS NewsHour' Host Jim Lehrer", "question_index": 13, "text": ". But would you ever want to be in a situation like that? What I'm thinking is that your partner, Robert MacNeil, went back and forth during his career between commercial and public television. To my knowledge, the only television work you've done is on public television.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It seems incredibly absurd to me. I don't understand it. I do - I simply do not understand the value that is placed on the ability of somebody to look into a television camera and read a teleprompter."}
{"id": "800050832", "date": "2020-01-27", "guest": "Jim Lehrer", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'PBS NewsHour' Host Jim Lehrer", "question_index": 14, "text": "OK. Well, I want to thank you so much for talking with us. Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. I went right from newspapers to public television. Look; my feeling about that is always - it's always been consistent, I must say. The one thing I've been consistent on is that if comme"}
{"id": "801169316", "date": "2020-01-30", "guest": "Kim Ghattas", "title": "'Black Wave' Author Chronicles Cultural, Religious Upheaval In The Middle East", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. In her new book, journalist Kim Ghattas asked the question she says haunts her and most people in the Arab and Muslim world - what happened to us? Ghattas is Lebanese and grew up during her country's civil war. For people in the Middle East, she says, the past is a different country, one that is not mired in the horrors of sectarian killings, a more vibrant place without the crushing intolerance of religious zealots and seemingly endless wars. Her new book is a history of how the Middle East unraveled in the past few decades. It's called \"Black Wave: Saudi Arabia, Iran, And The Forty-Year Rivalry That Unraveled Culture, Religion, And Collective Memory In The Middle East.\" She covered the Middle East for the BBC and The Financial Times for 20 years and is now a non-resident scholar at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace in Washington. She divides her time between Washington and Beirut. Kim Ghattas, welcome to FRESH AIR. So I want to start by asking you about General Qassem Soleimani because you've written about him. The U.S. killed him in a drone strike earlier this month. And, you know, he was a very powerful leader in Iran. He was the leading commander. He headed a powerful militia, the al-Quds Force. He was also a political leader and ran Iran's proxy wars in the Middle East. After the U.S. killed Soleimani and then Iran retaliated, it really looked like we were on the brink of war with Iran. Things have quieted down since then. And here in America, we're so absorbed in the impeachment and the Senate trial and the upcoming Iowa caucus that Soleimani has kind of - and Iran has of kind of, like, fallen off the radar. But it feels like this story is not over. What's your sense of what's coming next?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "801169316", "date": "2020-01-30", "guest": "Kim Ghattas", "title": "'Black Wave' Author Chronicles Cultural, Religious Upheaval In The Middle East", "question_index": 1, "text": "I don't understand how Iran uses this moment of weakness to come out on top.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're absolutely right that the story is not over even if it's not making headlines in the U.S. anymore, and that's a pattern often when it comes to covering the Middle East. The story continues in t"}
{"id": "801169316", "date": "2020-01-30", "guest": "Kim Ghattas", "title": "'Black Wave' Author Chronicles Cultural, Religious Upheaval In The Middle East", "question_index": 2, "text": "Wow. That sounds like quite a dramatic move.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, if you look, for example, at Lebanon, where, for the last hundred days or so, young people, older people, people of all sects and all faiths and all social classes have been protesting relentles"}
{"id": "801169316", "date": "2020-01-30", "guest": "Kim Ghattas", "title": "'Black Wave' Author Chronicles Cultural, Religious Upheaval In The Middle East", "question_index": 3, "text": "So another question about Iran and Soleimani - after the U.S. killed Soleimani, Iran retaliated by bombing a U.S. military base, but it wasn't as catastrophic as it could have been. American soldiers had what is probably traumatic brain injuries, but considering what many people were braced for, it was, you know, a relatively restrained attack. It almost seemed like they were intentionally not doing more damage than they did. I did not expect Iran to use restraint. Why do you think they did?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hezbollah is very pragmatic, but as I said, they're also very cunning in their planning. And they have a long-term strategy, and that is Iran's strength in the region. Whatever you think of Iran, its "}
{"id": "801169316", "date": "2020-01-30", "guest": "Kim Ghattas", "title": "'Black Wave' Author Chronicles Cultural, Religious Upheaval In The Middle East", "question_index": 4, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is journalist Kim Ghattas. She's Lebanese but now divides her time between Washington and Lebanon. She covered the Middle East for the BBC for 20 years. Her new book is called \"Black Wave: Saudi Arabia, Iran, And The Forty-Year Rivalry That Unraveled Culture, Religion, And Collective Memory In The Middle East.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would have to disagree about the fact that it's unexpected that they use restraint. I think they are, in their own very interesting way, restrained because they want to avert a full-on conflict with"}
{"id": "801169316", "date": "2020-01-30", "guest": "Kim Ghattas", "title": "'Black Wave' Author Chronicles Cultural, Religious Upheaval In The Middle East", "question_index": 5, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is journalist Kim Ghattas, who covered the Middle East for the BBC for 20 years. Her new book is called \"Black Wave: Saudi Arabia, Iran, And The Forty-Year Rivalry That Unraveled Culture, Religion, And Collective Memory In The Middle East.\" I want to ask you about your book. Your book - one chapter with your book starts with the question, what happened to us? I want you to elaborate on that question - what you're asking and why you're asking it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would have to disagree about the fact that it's unexpected that they use restraint. I think they are, in their own very interesting way, restrained because they want to avert a full-on conflict with"}
{"id": "801169316", "date": "2020-01-30", "guest": "Kim Ghattas", "title": "'Black Wave' Author Chronicles Cultural, Religious Upheaval In The Middle East", "question_index": 6, "text": "Well, in trying to answer that question - what happened to us, and how did it happen? - you spend a lot of time in the book focusing on 1979. That's the year of the Iranian Revolution and, for Americans, the Iranian hostage crisis, when radical students took Americans hostage at the American Embassy in Tehran. It's also the year that the Soviets invaded Afghanistan and the year that the jihad against the Soviets was launched. And I should add, 1979 is also the year that the Grand Mosque in Mecca in Saudi Arabia is seized by zealots who took it over. So this is a really consequential year. Are all the things, the three things that we just focused on, leading toward a more extreme form of Islam and more extreme cultural norms, social norms, religious norms enforced by the state?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The question, what happened to us, is one that we ask ourselves a lot in the region because we look at childhood and the young adulthood of our parents and we realize they had a completely different l"}
{"id": "801169316", "date": "2020-01-30", "guest": "Kim Ghattas", "title": "'Black Wave' Author Chronicles Cultural, Religious Upheaval In The Middle East", "question_index": 7, "text": "Give us an example of how Iran and Saudi Arabia exploit religion for their own rivalry between them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "1979 is such a consequential year that sometimes I think I should have written a book just about that year because so much else happened. In Egypt, you had President Anwar Sadat, who signed peace with"}
{"id": "801169316", "date": "2020-01-30", "guest": "Kim Ghattas", "title": "'Black Wave' Author Chronicles Cultural, Religious Upheaval In The Middle East", "question_index": 8, "text": "You talked about how Iran created Hezbollah in 1982 as a proxy force that Iranians trained. You were living in Lebanon then. You were 5 years old at the time. Did you notice the change? Did - the civil war was already underway. Did you notice the country becoming more fundamentalist or parts of it more fundamentalist? Did you notice changes in social codes and how people dressed? And again, you were only 5.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So there are many ways in which they do that. But I would look at, for example, the efforts by Iran to export its own understanding, its own version of, in essence, state-sponsored Shiism. And they do"}
{"id": "801169316", "date": "2020-01-30", "guest": "Kim Ghattas", "title": "'Black Wave' Author Chronicles Cultural, Religious Upheaval In The Middle East", "question_index": 9, "text": "My guest is Kim Ghattas, author of the new book \"Black Wave: Saudi Arabia, Iran, And The Forty-Year Rivalry That Unraveled Culture, Religion, And Collective Memory In The Middle East.\" After we take a short break, we'll talk about growing up in Lebanon during the Civil War, and Lara Maiklem will tell us about hunting for historical treasures along the muddy banks of the River Thames in London. She's found amazing things. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "First, we were in a civil war, and we were very - the country was very divided. So I happened to live on the frontline sort of with our front door facing towards the Christian part of Beirut. But we h"}
{"id": "801169316", "date": "2020-01-30", "guest": "Kim Ghattas", "title": "'Black Wave' Author Chronicles Cultural, Religious Upheaval In The Middle East", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with journalist Kim Ghattas, author of the new book \"Black Wave: Saudi Arabia, Iran, And The Forty-Year Rivalry That Unraveled Culture, Religion, And Collective Memory In The Middle East.\" She covered the Middle East for the BBC and The Financial Times for 20 years and is now a non-resident scholar at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace in Washington. She divides her time between Washington and Beirut. You point out that in Lebanon, where you're from, you know - and you grew up during the Lebanese civil war. You know, you say that the Sunni-Shia divide was not an issue in the civil war, but on the other hand, the Islam that's predominantly practiced is a branch of Shia Islam. And also, there was a Christian-Muslim divide in the civil war, and your family is Christian. What was it like to be Christian during the civil war?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "First, we were in a civil war, and we were very - the country was very divided. So I happened to live on the frontline sort of with our front door facing towards the Christian part of Beirut. But we h"}
{"id": "801169316", "date": "2020-01-30", "guest": "Kim Ghattas", "title": "'Black Wave' Author Chronicles Cultural, Religious Upheaval In The Middle East", "question_index": 11, "text": "Did you grow up afraid? Like, if you played outside, did you hear shelling? Did you see militias down the street?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Growing up in the war was unreal, but it was the only reality that I knew. And in a way, it felt normal even though I knew that beyond the borders of Lebanon, there was peace. My mother is Dutch, and "}
{"id": "801169316", "date": "2020-01-30", "guest": "Kim Ghattas", "title": "'Black Wave' Author Chronicles Cultural, Religious Upheaval In The Middle East", "question_index": 12, "text": "When you were a child growing up during the civil war, were children targeted by snipers, or did snipers try to protect children from their own gunfire?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We saw everything. We lived on the frontline, so we really did see everything. We saw militias who camped in the ground floor of our building, all sorts of militias - you know, whoever was on top at t"}
{"id": "801169316", "date": "2020-01-30", "guest": "Kim Ghattas", "title": "'Black Wave' Author Chronicles Cultural, Religious Upheaval In The Middle East", "question_index": 13, "text": "You mentioned that you lost your home several times. Was it the same home?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think anyone was protected from snipers. We had to dodge sniper bullets often, crazily enough - I know it sounds crazy - when we had to go to school or even leave the neighborhood. But snipers"}
{"id": "801169316", "date": "2020-01-30", "guest": "Kim Ghattas", "title": "'Black Wave' Author Chronicles Cultural, Religious Upheaval In The Middle East", "question_index": 14, "text": "You were a friend and colleague of Jamal Khashoggi. He was murdered in October of 2018 in the Saudi Arabian consulate in Istanbul. And it's believed that MBS, the crown prince of Saudi Arabia, ordered his murder. How did you hear about his death?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. We lived in that terrible area that was known as - I don't know - sniper central, called Gallery Samaan, at the intersection of east and west Beirut. And it was shelled several times, so we had t"}
{"id": "801169316", "date": "2020-01-30", "guest": "Kim Ghattas", "title": "'Black Wave' Author Chronicles Cultural, Religious Upheaval In The Middle East", "question_index": 15, "text": "I assume that the reason why he was murdered was not only to stop him from writing but to teach a lesson and to warn other journalists and opinion writers and analysts. Do you think it had a chilling effect on other journalists in the Middle East?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "On Twitter. I was in Beirut. And I can't remember who tweeted it first that he had gone into the consulate and not reemerged. And I really got the chills because somehow - and I don't say in hindsight"}
{"id": "801169316", "date": "2020-01-30", "guest": "Kim Ghattas", "title": "'Black Wave' Author Chronicles Cultural, Religious Upheaval In The Middle East", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, Kim Ghattas, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It had. It definitely had. First of all, it had a chilling effect on young Saudis within the country who were hopeful that their country could have a different, more open, more progressive future unde"}
{"id": "801169316", "date": "2020-01-30", "guest": "Kim Ghattas", "title": "'Black Wave' Author Chronicles Cultural, Religious Upheaval In The Middle East", "question_index": 17, "text": "Kim Ghattas is the author of the new book \"Black Wave: Saudi Arabia, Iran, And The Forty-Year Rivalry That Unraveled Culture, Religion, And Collective Memory In The Middle East.\" After we take a short break, Lara Maiklem will tell us how she searches for and finds historic treasures during low tide on the banks of the River Thames in London. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me, Terry. It was wonderful to speak to you."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Antonio Banderas, welcome to FRESH AIR. You're so good in this new film", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, editor of the website TV Worth Watching, sitting in for Terry Gross. Today's guest is Antonio Banderas, who was nominated for an Oscar for his starring role in "}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 1, "text": ", in Almodovar's...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, editor of the website TV Worth Watching, sitting in for Terry Gross. Today's guest is Antonio Banderas, who was nominated for an Oscar for his starring role in "}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 2, "text": "...New film. It's really a pleasure to have you on our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Early in the film, there's a part where you, as - in your role as a director who is afflicted with all kinds of symptoms - is recounting his symptoms. And I know Almodovar suffers from a lot of physical pain. Can we talk about that first? Did he talk to you about why he wrote those lines and the pain that the character he created that you play resonates for him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. My pleasure to be here."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Did he know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, absolutely. Well, you know, this is a man that actually suffered practically with each one of those physical problems. And so when he's trying just to put part of his life, you know, at front on "}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 5, "text": "...That you had had a heart attack when he asked you to do the role?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So..."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 6, "text": "Do you think that's part of the reason why he asked you to do the role, knowing that you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes. He knew. He knew from the beginning that I had that, you know, cardiac event."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 7, "text": "...Would really understand what it means to feel vulnerable and to have pain?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Your character is holding everything in. He's holding in his pain. He's holding in a lot of his emotions...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...To be humble, to open your ears and to open your eyes to especially those people that, actually, you trust. And I trusted him for many years. He's the first director, really - movie director - that"}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 9, "text": "...While also digging deep into the memories of the past. And because of the pain, he's unable to make films, or at least he thinks he's unable to make films. So you have to communicate a lot just by the way you hold your body and your face and your eyes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 10, "text": "And that's - it's a very - I would imagine that's a very hard thing to do. Within the movie, we eventually learn that your character, the director, has been writing a monologue, and he wants an actor friend of his to perform it. And this actor friend, they had a falling out, like - I don't know - 20 years ago or more. And they had a falling out while this actor was being directed by your character. And when they come together after your character asks him to perform the monologue, they're talking about, like, how to convey the drama and the pain that is going to be expressed. And I forget whether the director says to the actor or the actor says that another director had told him this, but it was basically, don't overdo it with the sadness. Hold back the tears...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct, yeah."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 11, "text": "...That's the best way of expressing it. Was that advice Almodovar gave to you or that another director had given to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Humid?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 13, "text": "OK, wet.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wet emotions."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 14, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Antonio Banderas. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So that's a trick. You can do that, and you can apply all the realities that you want to that, but it's not true. I prefer actors who actually hold back the tears, hold the emotions, you know, that th"}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Antonio Banderas. He stars in the new Pedro Almodovar movie \"Pain And Glory.\" He also stars in Steven Soderbergh's film \"The Laundromat\" based on the story of the Panama Papers, the papers that revealed all the shell companies laundering money in Panama. You know, whenever I see an Almodovar movie, I always walk away thinking, I wish I lived in the visual world that Almodovar creates for his films because everything, from the way walls are painted in the interiors of houses to the patterns people are wearing in their clothes and the way it's lit, everything is just so, like, visually alive and vibrant, and the colors are all perfect with each other. Whether they're meant to, like, clash or match, they're all just vivid and jumping off the screen and - but seeing this movie, \"Pain And Glory,\" I was thinking, OK, that's the visual life that Almodovar creates on screen, but his interior, he talks about - you know, he writes about how depressed he is and the pain of the soul that he has. And so I - I'm assuming that the interior that he lives in isn't always so brightly decorated.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So that's a trick. You can do that, and you can apply all the realities that you want to that, but it's not true. I prefer actors who actually hold back the tears, hold the emotions, you know, that th"}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 16, "text": "Definitely. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No, it was a certain point when we met each other at the beginning of the '80s. We were almost like a theater company or like a rock-and-roll group because he loved to work with the same actors. A"}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 17, "text": "So I just want to get back to the fact that you had a heart attack a couple of years before making the movie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We always finish after. But I think because everything was swell. Everything was going so fluently and so beautiful."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 18, "text": "And you said a nurse in the hospital told you the heart not only pumps blood throughout your body; the heart is a warehouse for feelings and that you should expect to be sad for a few weeks or for a few months following the heart attack and having stents put in. And I'm wondering if that happened, if you were sad and if having been told in advance to expect being sad was helpful to you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 19, "text": "Taxes and laundering money.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 20, "text": "So when you started working in theater and when you started working with Pedro Almodovar, it was in the decade after Spain's longtime dictator, Francisco Franco, had died. He ruled from 1939 to 1975. The Spanish Civil War was to stop fascist rule, but Spain got fascist rule for a long time. So when Franco died and the restraints and the fear were removed, that's when the counterculture - the artistic counterculture came alive...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 21, "text": "...In Spain. And you were a part of that, as was Almodovar. Tell us a little bit about what it was like to be making art during that period when, you know, fascism had ended and there was a new generation coming of age without fascism who could express themselves and who could be transgressive in their art if they wanted to be.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 22, "text": "What were some of the rules that you most enjoyed breaking in your life or in your art?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "in a very kind of eerie way - you know, fine. This guy was there in power. And he was like your uncle. You know, he was always Franco. Yeah, this is what we have. And so when he died, I start growing "}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Well, and then you started making movies with Almodovar in the '80s. And there's gay characters and trans characters and straight characters. So coming to Hollywood, where a gay kiss is going to be a huge, big deal", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's 2019 interview with Antonio Banderas. He's nominated for a best actor Oscar this year for his role in \"Pain And Gl"}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 24, "text": "must have been kind of interesting for you after having opened up the box to all of these possibilities during the countercultural movement after Franco.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's 2019 interview with Antonio Banderas. He's nominated for a best actor Oscar this year for his role in \"Pain And Gl"}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 25, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Antonio Banderas. Your father was a police officer. Had he been a police officer under Franco, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "in the audience that, you know, you detect that it still, you know, is just rare, even in our times - just to see two people from the same sex to kiss on the screen."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 26, "text": "Wow. That's a big position.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he was. He was. He was actually chief of police of Malaga, which is the place where I was born."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 27, "text": "So did - that must have - well, what was that like in your family, to have your father be a police officer under a dictator?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 28, "text": "Was he afraid that your art and your behavior during the countercultural period in Spain would reflect badly on him and would make him look compromised?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was good because Franco - police was divided in different, you know, levels. And the level that was really, really political was the Social Brigade. But my father didn't belong to the Social Brigad"}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 29, "text": "Wow. Did you tell him that you knew?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 30, "text": "Is he still alive?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I never did because if he didn't want it, he didn't want it - just to disappoint him."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 31, "text": "So he never knew that you knew.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. My father died in February 2008."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 32, "text": "So you grew up in Spain. You started your acting career in Spain in theater and in film. Then you decided to move to America, I guess, to make movies here. Problem was you didn't speak any English. And when I think about that, I just can't imagine - it's hard enough to go to any country where you don't speak the language. But to go to that country looking for a job acting in a language that you don't speak, I can't imagine what that must have been like for you. That took a lot of - chutzpah is a word that comes to mind...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, never knew."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 33, "text": "...To do that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, never knew."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 34, "text": "How did you learn how to speak and comprehend English?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he just talk and talk, and I couldn't understand a word that he said, really. I was just saying yeses and yeah, yeah and of course, of course - things like that. You know, but I think towards the "}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 35, "text": "I can understand why you feel that way, but I find you very easy to understand, so I want to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 36, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 37, "text": "Reassure you on that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 38, "text": "You've done a lot of action roles...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 39, "text": "...During your career. Is that in part because action films are less dependent on - like, there's usually not, like, long, reflective conversations and voiceovers...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 40, "text": "...In action films.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 41, "text": "Yes", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Maybe, yeah. I suppose at some point, you know, because I did movies that were very successful, like \"Zorro\" or \"The 13th Warrior\" or \"Desperado,\" you know, Hollywood has a way to label you."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 42, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Maybe, yeah. I suppose at some point, you know, because I did movies that were very successful, like \"Zorro\" or \"The 13th Warrior\" or \"Desperado,\" you know, Hollywood has a way to label you."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 43, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Antonio Banderas. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, that's what you are."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 44, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Antonio Banderas. He stars in Pedro Almodovar's new movie \"Pain And Glory.\" He won the best actor award at Cannes Film Festival for his role in this film. So one of your early action roles in Hollywood - or in America, I should say - was \"Desperado.\" It's part of Robert Rodriguez's Mariachi trilogy. And there's an action scene where you and Salma Hayek are on a roof. And to get away from the bad guys, you have to jump from that roof across a pretty big distance to another roof", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, that's what you are."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 45, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, that's what you are."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 46, "text": "And from what I read, it sounds like there was a construction worker around the corner with a crane. And the director or somebody got the construction worker and the crane to help you with that scene. I really wanted to know what that was like. I want you to describe that experience because it sounds really dangerous to me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 47, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Just - I will just start my explanation saying that I would never do that again."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 48, "text": "Because there wasn't enough money to hire other people to play each of the parts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 49, "text": "So he plays lot of the parts. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. We had only one."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 50, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 51, "text": "Like, so you were hanging from a cable...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But that scene, yeah. We were hung on a cable that was on a crane. There was not a movie crane or nothing prepared for the movie. And that guy who was - you know, construction worker that was working "}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 52, "text": "...As you jumped...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 53, "text": "...From one roof to another.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 54, "text": "He's not a movie guy. He's a construction worker.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. That cable was attached to a harness that we had under our, you know, costume. But it was not very precise because the guy never rehearse it. He never did anything like this. You know, h"}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 55, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "..."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 56, "text": "Oh, no. Your hair?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 57, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah - my hair, Salma's hair and everybody that was behind the camera's hair."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 58, "text": "But it's an iconic shot. I mean, like, you throw these, like, grenades down from the roof...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, I..."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 59, "text": "And they explode. And they...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 60, "text": "They Kill the bad guys, and there's this huge conflagration.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 61, "text": "And you and Salma Hayek are kind of heroically walking away, facing the camera with a screen full of flame behind you. And it's a very iconic shot. People who've seen the movie will remember it. I think it was on the poster for the movies, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 62, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it was. Yeah."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 63, "text": "So you've been in several musicals. You've done the movie adaptation of \"Evita,\" where you played Che. Madonna starred in that movie. You were in \"Mambo Kings,\" where you had to do some singing. That was the film \"Mambo Kings.\" You did \"Nine\" - a revival of the musical \"Nine\" on Broadway. And now you're starting a theater in Malaga, the city where you're from in Spain. Why did you do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "801559096", "date": "2020-01-31", "guest": "Antonio Banderas", "title": "How A Heart Attack Brought Antonio Banderas Closer To 'Pain And Glory'", "question_index": 64, "text": "Antonio Banderas, it's been a pleasure to talk with you. Congratulations on \"Pain And Glory.\" Your performance is so good. Thank you for coming on our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And - but a theater is something that you can touch, that you can see, that you can use. You can have people there expressing things. And so I bought a theater. I don't want to make money with it. I"}
{"id": "803355747", "date": "2020-02-06", "guest": "Adam Entous", "title": "Killing Of Iranian General Opens Up 'New Frontier' In Assassination, Journalist Says", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. When President Trump gave his State of the Union address Tuesday evening, he talked about how he directed the military strike that killed General Qassem Soleimani, the leader of Iran's elite Quds Force. Trump said, our message to the terrorists is clear - you will never escape American justice; if you attack our citizens, you forfeit your life. But Soleimani was a general, one of Iran's most powerful leaders, and killing a foreign government official outside wartime has been barred by the 1907 Hague Convention, and assassination is banned by a presidential executive order issued by President Ford. The killing of Soleimani has opened a new frontier in assassination, according to my guest Adam Entous, who - with Evan Osnos - wrote an article in the current issue of The New Yorker titled \"Qassem Suleimani And How Nations Decide To Kill\" (ph). Entous covers intelligence, national security and foreign affairs for The New Yorker. Later, we'll talk about the profile of Hunter Biden that Entous wrote last July in The New Yorker. Adam Entous, welcome to FRESH AIR. Trump has really bragged about killing Soleimani. Even this week in the State of the Union address, he called Soleimani a ruthless butcher, a monster and said, our precision strike ended his ruthless reign of terror. Would you compare Trump's, like, really bragging about this with how Israel has handled some of its strikes against leaders who Israel saw as terrorists?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "803355747", "date": "2020-02-06", "guest": "Adam Entous", "title": "Killing Of Iranian General Opens Up 'New Frontier' In Assassination, Journalist Says", "question_index": 1, "text": "You talked to a lot of people for your article about the killing of Soleimani. Did any of the diplomats or government people in Israel or the U.S. and former diplomats as well - did any of them think that that we're actually closer to war with Iran now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's one of the most strange things about this. Usually when Israel conducts an operation like this and, frankly, when the United States conducts an operation like this, the goal is to cover o"}
{"id": "803355747", "date": "2020-02-06", "guest": "Adam Entous", "title": "Killing Of Iranian General Opens Up 'New Frontier' In Assassination, Journalist Says", "question_index": 2, "text": "Yeah, Israel had been pretty quiet about the U.S. killing of Soleimani, but you say that behind the scenes Netanyahu is very happy about it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, I think the - one of the takeaways of the killing of Soleimani was that there was an effort last year where Trump appeared very interested in getting into negotiations with Iran to try t"}
{"id": "803355747", "date": "2020-02-06", "guest": "Adam Entous", "title": "Killing Of Iranian General Opens Up 'New Frontier' In Assassination, Journalist Says", "question_index": 3, "text": "One of the things that the Trump administration did last year was to put the Revolutionary Guard, which includes the Quds Force which was headed by Soleimani - to put them on the terrorist list. So that - did that open up the door to taking out Soleimani?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I met with one Israeli official who told me not even 99.9%, 100% ecstatic about it. Netanyahu was extremely concerned throughout 2019 that Trump was not retaliating to Iranian provocatio"}
{"id": "803355747", "date": "2020-02-06", "guest": "Adam Entous", "title": "Killing Of Iranian General Opens Up 'New Frontier' In Assassination, Journalist Says", "question_index": 4, "text": "Did you learn anything new about the intelligence?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One of the officials I spoke to thought that that kind of opened the aperture for targeting the group. Others, lawyers, told me otherwise, that it, you know, really was - it's more of a symbolic decis"}
{"id": "803355747", "date": "2020-02-06", "guest": "Adam Entous", "title": "Killing Of Iranian General Opens Up 'New Frontier' In Assassination, Journalist Says", "question_index": 5, "text": "You know, your article in The New Yorker is subtitled \"A New Frontier In Assassinations.\" What is new about the assassination of Soleimani?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Soleimani was always, you know, in the middle of plotting new attacks. Most of those attacks, though, until recently, weren't against Americans. That began to change in October. I mean, my conversatio"}
{"id": "803355747", "date": "2020-02-06", "guest": "Adam Entous", "title": "Killing Of Iranian General Opens Up 'New Frontier' In Assassination, Journalist Says", "question_index": 6, "text": "Assassination is outlawed. I mean, you can't assassinate people legally. So when did assassination become illegal, both in terms of international law and in terms of American precedent?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What's new is killing somebody who's a member of a government. Now, Israel is in a state of war with several of its neighbors and is - you know, justifies its killings on the grounds that it - and it'"}
{"id": "803355747", "date": "2020-02-06", "guest": "Adam Entous", "title": "Killing Of Iranian General Opens Up 'New Frontier' In Assassination, Journalist Says", "question_index": 7, "text": "So is targeted killing a linguistic way of getting around assassination?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So assassination has been banned for decades under international law. And in the 1970s, Gerald Ford issued an executive order which said that no U.S. government employee shall engage in or conspire to"}
{"id": "803355747", "date": "2020-02-06", "guest": "Adam Entous", "title": "Killing Of Iranian General Opens Up 'New Frontier' In Assassination, Journalist Says", "question_index": 8, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Adam Entous. He writes for The New Yorker. He reports on intelligence, national security and foreign policy. His latest piece is called \"Qassem Suleimani And How Nations Decide To Kill: A New Frontier In Assassinations.\" We'll be back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As part of the interviews for the story, I spoke to John Brennan, who was in charge of some of these operations under the Obama administration. He explained that, you know, you can get a lawyer to say"}
{"id": "803355747", "date": "2020-02-06", "guest": "Adam Entous", "title": "Killing Of Iranian General Opens Up 'New Frontier' In Assassination, Journalist Says", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Adam Entous. He reports on intelligence, national security and foreign policy for The New Yorker. His latest piece is called \"Qassem Suleimani And How Nations Decide To Kill: A New Frontier In Assassination.\" You report on a story that shows that Israel almost killed Soleimani back in 2008. He wasn't the prime target that they were going after. The prime target was Imad Mughniyeh, who was the architect of military strategy for Hezbollah, the armed force in Lebanon that's backed with money and weapons by Iran and is one of the enemies of Israel. So how did this targeting of Mughniyeh almost end up killing Soleimani?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As part of the interviews for the story, I spoke to John Brennan, who was in charge of some of these operations under the Obama administration. He explained that, you know, you can get a lawyer to say"}
{"id": "803355747", "date": "2020-02-06", "guest": "Adam Entous", "title": "Killing Of Iranian General Opens Up 'New Frontier' In Assassination, Journalist Says", "question_index": 10, "text": "And when Mughniyeh emerged from his vehicle and Israel was about to take him out, two other leaders were with him. One of them was Soleimani. Who was the other?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's a - it's an interesting, you know, backstory. What happened was, is the - you know, Israel and the United States both saw Mughniyeh as a threat. He was involved in the 1980s, in particula"}
{"id": "803355747", "date": "2020-02-06", "guest": "Adam Entous", "title": "Killing Of Iranian General Opens Up 'New Frontier' In Assassination, Journalist Says", "question_index": 11, "text": "Even though that would've broken his agreement with George W. Bush.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was - there were - it was a big surprise. Mossad was obviously tracking the phone of Mughniyeh, so they knew that he was going to the park - to the apartment. But they didn't know that these two"}
{"id": "803355747", "date": "2020-02-06", "guest": "Adam Entous", "title": "Killing Of Iranian General Opens Up 'New Frontier' In Assassination, Journalist Says", "question_index": 12, "text": "So Israel ended up taking out Mughniyeh because after the meeting, he emerged alone, and they had just enough time to kill him without killing the other two.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He wanted - he thought that - and I think he probably is - was right about this - that, you know, Bush would've forgiven him for having done it. And it never happened because the Mossad officer,"}
{"id": "803355747", "date": "2020-02-06", "guest": "Adam Entous", "title": "Killing Of Iranian General Opens Up 'New Frontier' In Assassination, Journalist Says", "question_index": 13, "text": "My guest is Adam Entous. His new article in The New Yorker, written with Evan Osnos, is titled \"Qassem Suleimani And How Nations Decide To Kill.\" After we take a short break, Entous will talk about his profile of Hunter Biden. Two Senate committees just announced they're reviewing potential conflicts of interest posed by Hunter's business activities while his father was vice president. And David Bianculli will review the new CBS crime drama \"Tommy,\" starring Edie Falco as the new police chief for the LAPD. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. The other two left the meeting before Mughniyeh. And they watched them get into their car. They had set up cameras in an apartment that was rented by the CIA nearby that had views of the"}
{"id": "803355747", "date": "2020-02-06", "guest": "Adam Entous", "title": "Killing Of Iranian General Opens Up 'New Frontier' In Assassination, Journalist Says", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Adam Entous, who covers intelligence, national security and foreign affairs for The New Yorker. In this part of the interview, we talked about Hunter Biden. Entous profiled Hunter Biden last July, reporting on his business dealings and tumultuous personal life. In December, Entous wrote about the efforts of Rudy Giuliani and Yuriy Lutsenko, Ukraine's former prosecutor general, to smear Joe Biden. Our interview was recorded yesterday, before the Senate acquitted President Trump. Later, the Republican heads of two Senate committees announced that they're reviewing potential conflicts of interest posed by the business activities of Hunter Biden during the time his father was vice president. The committees have requested travel records to find out whether Hunter used government-sponsored travel to help conduct private business in China and Ukraine. How did you start writing about Hunter Biden and Ukraine?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. The other two left the meeting before Mughniyeh. And they watched them get into their car. They had set up cameras in an apartment that was rented by the CIA nearby that had views of the"}
{"id": "803355747", "date": "2020-02-06", "guest": "Adam Entous", "title": "Killing Of Iranian General Opens Up 'New Frontier' In Assassination, Journalist Says", "question_index": 15, "text": "How did the story get started that Joe Biden, when he was vice president, got a former Ukrainian prosecutor removed from office because the prosecutor was investigating corruption in Burisma, the energy company in which Hunter Biden served on the board of directors? That's the Republican narrative. There is no evidence to back that up. There's no evidence that Biden was trying to cover up for his son and prevent an investigation into Burisma; it's actually the opposite way around, according to your sources.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So my editors were - there were a lot of stories that were circulating, particularly on Breitbart and Fox News that were making some of these allegations about the involvement of Hunter Biden on the b"}
{"id": "803355747", "date": "2020-02-06", "guest": "Adam Entous", "title": "Killing Of Iranian General Opens Up 'New Frontier' In Assassination, Journalist Says", "question_index": 16, "text": "So one of the things that furthered what became the Republican narrative, Joe Biden got a Ukrainian prosecutor fired because the Ukrainian prosecutor was looking into corruption in Burisma, the company on which Hunter Biden served on the board of directors. This book that helped further that narrative was written by Peter Schweizer, who is the co-founder, with Steve Bannon, of the Government Accountability Institute, which is funded in part or perhaps largely funded by Rebekah Mercer, part of the Mercer family, which funds a lot of right-wing causes. You've read the book, and you've done a lot of investigation. How much of this book is actually based on fact? How much of it do you think is really misleading?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So it kind of starts in kind of two parts. The original stories, which were covered by the mainstream press - The Wall Street Journal, New York Times - when Hunter Biden was given this very lucr"}
{"id": "803355747", "date": "2020-02-06", "guest": "Adam Entous", "title": "Killing Of Iranian General Opens Up 'New Frontier' In Assassination, Journalist Says", "question_index": 17, "text": "So how influential was this book?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that the chronology is largely accurate. But what I was amazed at was, you know, obviously Peter Schweitzer was not able to really talk to anybody. I don't know how hard he tried to talk"}
{"id": "803355747", "date": "2020-02-06", "guest": "Adam Entous", "title": "Killing Of Iranian General Opens Up 'New Frontier' In Assassination, Journalist Says", "question_index": 18, "text": "Another book written by Peter Schweizer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it certainly was influential in right-wing media. I mean, Fox gave it a lot of airtime. Breitbart printed a lot of stories based on parts of the book. As we saw with \"Clinton Cash,\" one of the t"}
{"id": "803355747", "date": "2020-02-06", "guest": "Adam Entous", "title": "Killing Of Iranian General Opens Up 'New Frontier' In Assassination, Journalist Says", "question_index": 19, "text": "So he was trying to sell you on that story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct. What we saw is, is that the strategy that Bannon and Schweizer have is to take these investigations, if you want to call it that, and find a way to get the narrative to jump from the right-wi"}
{"id": "803355747", "date": "2020-02-06", "guest": "Adam Entous", "title": "Killing Of Iranian General Opens Up 'New Frontier' In Assassination, Journalist Says", "question_index": 20, "text": "But your conclusion is that there's no credible evidence that Biden sought the removal of the Ukrainian prosecutor in order to protect his son.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was trying to sell me. He was trying to sell everybody, frankly, on that story to try to get them to write stories about it."}
{"id": "803355747", "date": "2020-02-06", "guest": "Adam Entous", "title": "Killing Of Iranian General Opens Up 'New Frontier' In Assassination, Journalist Says", "question_index": 21, "text": "OK. If you're just joining us, my guest is Adam Entous. He writes for The New Yorker covering intelligence, national security and foreign policy. His latest piece is titled \"Qassem Suleimani And How Nations Decide To Kill: A New Frontier In Assassination.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, absolutely. I saw no evidence of that. I think the questions about Hunter Biden's wisdom in taking this board seat, given his father's role in Ukraine, that's a legitimate subject of scrutiny. B"}
{"id": "803355747", "date": "2020-02-06", "guest": "Adam Entous", "title": "Killing Of Iranian General Opens Up 'New Frontier' In Assassination, Journalist Says", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is New Yorker reporter Adam Entous. So you did a long profile of Hunter Biden, and the profile reveals that he's had a lot of problems in his life. He's been in and out of rehab for alcohol addiction, and he's had, like, problematic business dealings. Beyond serving on the Burisma board, he's - he was in one business dealing that lost a lot of money. He bought a $1.5 million home, didn't have the money for a down payment, so paid 110% mortgage. I never even heard of such a thing. But all those troubles - and there's more, I mean, including a paternity suit that he denied being the father, and a DNA test revealed that he is the father. So you've got all these troubles in his life, but that doesn't mean that Joe Biden did something corrupt.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, absolutely. I saw no evidence of that. I think the questions about Hunter Biden's wisdom in taking this board seat, given his father's role in Ukraine, that's a legitimate subject of scrutiny. B"}
{"id": "803355747", "date": "2020-02-06", "guest": "Adam Entous", "title": "Killing Of Iranian General Opens Up 'New Frontier' In Assassination, Journalist Says", "question_index": 23, "text": "What was the reaction of Biden's staff to Hunter Biden serving on Burisma?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I mean, I think in many ways, if you kind of look at the history of the family, you know, Hunter was a breadwinner in the family. He was the one that was supposed to make money. Beau, his older br"}
{"id": "803355747", "date": "2020-02-06", "guest": "Adam Entous", "title": "Killing Of Iranian General Opens Up 'New Frontier' In Assassination, Journalist Says", "question_index": 24, "text": "I'm wondering how you thought about this when you were writing your piece, your long profile of Hunter Biden. Talking about Hunter Biden and talking about the problems he had, in a way it amplifies the Republican strategy of putting the spotlight on Hunter Biden and his problems and connecting Joe Biden to that. So what was your approach to writing about Hunter Biden while at the same time trying to not play into the Republican narrative of smearing Joe Biden through his son Hunter?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Generally speaking, they were displeased. Some of them were quite concerned. The issue was, is they didn't want to raise the matter with Joe Biden. You know, they knew that anything involving the fami"}
{"id": "803355747", "date": "2020-02-06", "guest": "Adam Entous", "title": "Killing Of Iranian General Opens Up 'New Frontier' In Assassination, Journalist Says", "question_index": 25, "text": "Do you find that people tell you that they don't know what's true anymore, that they hear both sides and like who knows what's right? And, like, at The New Yorker, like, everything you write, everything the New Yorker publishes is so fact-checked. But still, are people reading and saying, well, that's what you reported, but I don't know what's true because I've heard the other side, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Frankly, that was a really difficult balancing act. You know, I wanted No. 1. I just wanted to be fair and accurate in telling the story, you know. I wanted to be able to shoot down the conspira"}
{"id": "803355747", "date": "2020-02-06", "guest": "Adam Entous", "title": "Killing Of Iranian General Opens Up 'New Frontier' In Assassination, Journalist Says", "question_index": 26, "text": "Well, Adam Entous, thank you for your reporting. And thank you for coming on our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. No, I'm - you know, again, maybe I'm naive, but the - you know, I have friends who are Trump supporters. And when I was working on this Hunter Biden story, you know, occasionally, I get a call f"}
{"id": "803355747", "date": "2020-02-06", "guest": "Adam Entous", "title": "Killing Of Iranian General Opens Up 'New Frontier' In Assassination, Journalist Says", "question_index": 27, "text": "Adam Entous' profile of Hunter Biden was published in The New Yorker last July. His article in the current issue is titled \"Qassem Suleimani And How Nations Decide to Kill.\" After we take a short break, David Bianculli will review the new crime drama \"Tommy\" starring Edie Falco. It premieres tonight on CBS. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a pleasure. Thank you."}
{"id": "803716348", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'The System's Broken' And 'Joker' Director Aimed To Explore That On Screen", "question_index": 0, "text": "Todd Phillips, welcome back to FRESH AIR. \"Joker\" has really divided audiences and critics, but it's done fantastically at the box office. I'm one of the people who thinks this is a terrific film and a very serious film. You've said that you made the character Joker in order to make a serious movie that's kind of about a comic book character so you could get a big budget. It was, you said, a way to sneak a real movie into the studio system under the guise of a comic book film. Tell us more about that.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The city is going crazy, and the main character is increasingly unhinged in the movie \"Joker,\" which won two Golden Globe Awards and is nominated for 11 Academy Awards, including best film, best direc"}
{"id": "803716348", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'The System's Broken' And 'Joker' Director Aimed To Explore That On Screen", "question_index": 1, "text": "Let's talk about your vision of Joker, the character of Arthur. He initially paints his face like a clown because he's employed by an agency that basically rents out clowns...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was starting to think that films that I grew up on, grew up loving, that - how hard it is to get those movies made nowadays. And I started looking around at the state of the movie business, about wh"}
{"id": "803716348", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'The System's Broken' And 'Joker' Director Aimed To Explore That On Screen", "question_index": 2, "text": "...Like, for your child's party or for, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "803716348", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'The System's Broken' And 'Joker' Director Aimed To Explore That On Screen", "question_index": 3, "text": "...The hospital children's ward. But for reasons I won't explain - I don't want to give away too much stuff - you know, he loses his job, but he continues, sometimes, to paint his face. And he has serious mental health problems. There's a history of mental health problems in his family, and he's soon off his meds because he can no longer afford them, and the city can no longer help him because they're shutting down social services. And his mental health deteriorates as the movie goes on. Why did you want this Joker to have a mental health disorder? And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "803716348", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'The System's Broken' And 'Joker' Director Aimed To Explore That On Screen", "question_index": 4, "text": "...Is it a specific disorder that you've given him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "803716348", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'The System's Broken' And 'Joker' Director Aimed To Explore That On Screen", "question_index": 5, "text": "So the deteriorating mental health gives...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it wasn't that we wanted him to necessarily have a mental health disorder. What really we wanted to do and what really the whole MO of the film was - let's make a comic book film where we run ev"}
{"id": "803716348", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'The System's Broken' And 'Joker' Director Aimed To Explore That On Screen", "question_index": 6, "text": "You've said that there are a lot of films and filmmakers who were influential on you in the making of \"Joker.\" But I think the one that really stands out the most is Scorsese in terms of, in part, how the film looks. You know, you've got De Niro in the movie, and he was in \"Taxi Driver\" and \"King Of Comedy.\" There are some shots and some things that are so reminiscent of shots in \"Taxi Driver.\" And even there's two times - like, at the end of \"Taxi Driver,\" Travis Bickle puts his finger to his forehead as if the finger is a gun. And then with his thumb, he kind of pulls the trigger of this, you know, imaginary gun. So another, like, Scorsese reference is the fact that there's a late-night \"Tonight Show\" kind of variety show that's Arthur's mother's favorite show. And Arthur's grown up watching it, and he loves it, too. They watch it every night together. And in \"King Of Comedy,\" Scorsese's film, De Niro is the obsessive fan of the late-night show, which in that movie is hosted by someone played by Jerry Lewis.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". When everything changed, suddenly, things felt darker, you know? Anyway, so the mental illness to us was a lot about, you know, what you hear about when social services get cut. What happens to thes"}
{"id": "803716348", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'The System's Broken' And 'Joker' Director Aimed To Explore That On Screen", "question_index": 7, "text": "And De Niro kidnaps the Jerry Lewis character.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "803716348", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'The System's Broken' And 'Joker' Director Aimed To Explore That On Screen", "question_index": 8, "text": "And De Niro's goal is to, like, be on that show himself. And in \"Joker,\" the Joker character gets on that late-night show that De Niro hosts for very misguided reasons on the host's part. So I just wanted to play a short clip. And this is, you know - so, you know, Arthur, the Joaquin Phoenix character, the Joker character, shows up after he's invited on the show. And he's wearing, you know, Joker makeup and clothes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "803716348", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'The System's Broken' And 'Joker' Director Aimed To Explore That On Screen", "question_index": 9, "text": "The full look. And the producer of the show, the Fred de Cordova type...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "His full look."}
{"id": "803716348", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'The System's Broken' And 'Joker' Director Aimed To Explore That On Screen", "question_index": 10, "text": "...Played by Marc Maron, is, like, horrified. And the Johnny Carson type played by De Niro is kind of like, oh, no. We can make this work. This could be fun. The audience will enjoy it. I think there's one more thing we need to set up, and, Todd, I'm going to let you do it and give away as much as you want to about why they're suspicious of him dressed as a clown.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "803716348", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'The System's Broken' And 'Joker' Director Aimed To Explore That On Screen", "question_index": 11, "text": "So here's that scene between the host, De Niro, whose name is Murray, the producer played by Marc Maron and Joaquin Phoenix as Arthur, Joker.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, basically, that day, there happened to be a big protest planned at City Hall, so there's a lot of people dressed up as clowns in this Joker look, which was, of course, inspired by him early on -"}
{"id": "803716348", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'The System's Broken' And 'Joker' Director Aimed To Explore That On Screen", "question_index": 12, "text": "OK, so that's a scene from \"Joker.\" My guest is the director and co-writer, Todd Phillips. What was it like to direct both De Niro and Phoenix - Joaquin Phoenix together? Were they both able to arrive at the place they needed to be in terms of getting the character in the same way at the same time? You know, like, some actors like to take a lot of takes. Some actors go to extremes to get in roles. Both Phoenix and De Niro have either lost or gained a lot of weight...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Arthur Fleck) Thanks, Murray."}
{"id": "803716348", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'The System's Broken' And 'Joker' Director Aimed To Explore That On Screen", "question_index": 13, "text": "...For roles. I mean, they...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "803716348", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'The System's Broken' And 'Joker' Director Aimed To Explore That On Screen", "question_index": 14, "text": "...Both get very deep into the characters they're playing, but did they sync up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "803716348", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'The System's Broken' And 'Joker' Director Aimed To Explore That On Screen", "question_index": 15, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean, as much as you want Murray and Arthur to sync up. I mean, they didn't really have to be in sync. That scene is one giant cringe, really..."}
{"id": "803716348", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'The System's Broken' And 'Joker' Director Aimed To Explore That On Screen", "question_index": 16, "text": "Could you describe anything about those approaches without violating their confidence?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Where you're just like - and so that - you don't necessarily want them to be in lockstep with each other. But yeah, it was amazing to witness somebody like De Niro's approach as opposed to somebody"}
{"id": "803716348", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'The System's Broken' And 'Joker' Director Aimed To Explore That On Screen", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, you know, Joaquin has a lot of questions and really likes to go really deep on stuff. I jokingly have said this about Joaquin to his face, so I could say it now. I say, Joaquin is the tunnel a"}
{"id": "803716348", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'The System's Broken' And 'Joker' Director Aimed To Explore That On Screen", "question_index": 18, "text": "I think we should take a short break here, and then there's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just when you think, you know, you've cracked it, there's a whole 'nother (ph) layer to kind of peel back. And De Niro, at least - again, I can only speak with my experience on this movie with these t"}
{"id": "803716348", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'The System's Broken' And 'Joker' Director Aimed To Explore That On Screen", "question_index": 19, "text": "...Plenty more to talk about.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Great."}
{"id": "803716348", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'The System's Broken' And 'Joker' Director Aimed To Explore That On Screen", "question_index": 20, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Todd Phillips, director of \"Joker\" and, of course, of the \"Hangover\" movies. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "803716348", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'The System's Broken' And 'Joker' Director Aimed To Explore That On Screen", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is Todd Phillips, director of \"Joker.\" He also directed the \"Hangover\" movies. You create some real mayhem in \"Joker.\" And again, without giving away too much - but I know a lot of our listeners have already seen it - Joker has become an - he's taken some vigilante action early in the film and become something of, like, a hero to a lot of people who are feeling, like, angry and resentful and disenfranchised and out of work. And, you know - and they just kind of have a demonstration and erupt, and there's a lot of mayhem. Can you talk a little bit about creating that, creating both the story part of that and then actually literally creating it on set?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "803716348", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'The System's Broken' And 'Joker' Director Aimed To Explore That On Screen", "question_index": 22, "text": "So before I'd seen \"Joker\" - which, again, I want to mention, I liked a lot, just to be clear on the direction from which my questions are coming - I'd already heard reports about, like, is it too violent? Will it cause violence? And so the trailers I saw before \"Joker\" were trailers, like, for movies with - like, action movies with a lot of CGI. So I remember, like, one scene where somebody's basically run over by, like - it's either a tank or some kind of, like, large, futuristic iron vehicle. And after being run over, he gets up and starts running away, and I thought, like, this is absurd. Like, there are so many movies like this in movie theaters now, where people just can take any kind of violence and still survive, and it's so unrealistic that - why would a realistic depiction of the consequences of violence be the movie that presents the problem?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The movie was primarily shot in New York - in and around New York City - the Bronx, Brooklyn, areas that have yet to be totally gentrified, although I'm sure it's coming. Where we shot the mayhem that"}
{"id": "803716348", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'The System's Broken' And 'Joker' Director Aimed To Explore That On Screen", "question_index": 23, "text": "Joaquin Phoenix lost over 50 pounds for this role, like he kind of did in \"The Master.\" And when his shirt is off, he looks so undernourished, and you imagine he's, like, emotionally undernourished and spiritually undernourished, that he's undernourished in every way. Like, his bones jutting out is kind of like a metaphor for his whole existence. How did you feel watching him lose that much weight? It's not a healthy thing to do. I understand his desire to do it for the role, and it really is - it's very disturbing to see. It's very effective in the movie. But were you worried about his health when he was doing it, and did you feel very responsible?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know. It shocked us as well. And, you know, when we came out in the summer after, you know, another \"Rambo\" movie or \"John Wick\" film - and, again, I think these films can exist, should exist. Peopl"}
{"id": "803716348", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'The System's Broken' And 'Joker' Director Aimed To Explore That On Screen", "question_index": 24, "text": "Oh, really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK, so first, I should say he did not have any desire to do it. That was something I asked him to do. He really..."}
{"id": "803716348", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Joaquin Phoenix", "title": "'The System's Broken' And 'Joker' Director Aimed To Explore That On Screen", "question_index": 25, "text": "Todd Phillips, thank you so much. It's really been great to have you back on the show. And congratulations on the success of the film. I mean, people are very passionate. People are divided about it, but it's provoked a lot of really interesting conversations. And for - it's a great piece of filmmaking.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He came to me early in the script. It was written, you know, that Arthur is - I don't know if we use these words, but malnourished and wolf-like in his appearance, you know, or coyote - I don't "}
{"id": "803717554", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Kirk Douglas", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Star Kirk Douglas", "question_index": 0, "text": "You started off in your first movie playing someone who is pretty weak in the film...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry spoke to Kirk Douglas in 1988 after his autobiography \"The Ragman's Son\" was published."}
{"id": "803717554", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Kirk Douglas", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Star Kirk Douglas", "question_index": 1, "text": "...\"The Strange Love\"...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "803717554", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Kirk Douglas", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Star Kirk Douglas", "question_index": 2, "text": "...\"Of Martha Ivers.\" And you went on to become a character who was seen as very strong. In fact, you were - mentioned that Elia Kazan refers to you in his autobiography. And I'd like to read one of the things that he says when he was making the film \"The Arrangement,\" based on his best-selling novel. You wanted to be in the film. And he cast you in it, although he says he - there was something about the role that he thought Marlon Brando would have been better for. And Elia Kazan writes, there was one problem with Kirk. Eddie, the character, has to start defeated in every personal way. The film rests on how basic and painful his initial despair is. Kirk has developed a professional front, a man who can overcome any obstacle. He radiates indomitability. Marlon, on the other hand, with all his success and fame, was still unsure of his worth and of himself. Acting had little to do with it. It was all a matter of personality. Did you ever think of yourself that way, as just radiating indomitability...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "803717554", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Kirk Douglas", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Star Kirk Douglas", "question_index": 3, "text": "...And that affecting the kind of roles...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "803717554", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Kirk Douglas", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Star Kirk Douglas", "question_index": 4, "text": "...That you could or could not do well?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know..."}
{"id": "803717554", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Kirk Douglas", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Star Kirk Douglas", "question_index": 5, "text": "You were one of the first actors to actually start their own production studio. You produced \"Lust For Life,\" which you were just talking about. You produced...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Working with Kazan in \"The Arrangement\" was a wonderful experience. He's a great director. But I disagree with him completely. When I did \"Lust For Life,\" which I consider one of the most intriguing r"}
{"id": "803717554", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Kirk Douglas", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Star Kirk Douglas", "question_index": 6, "text": "...\"Spartacus.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "803717554", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Kirk Douglas", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Star Kirk Douglas", "question_index": 7, "text": "You didn't produce that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "803717554", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Kirk Douglas", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Star Kirk Douglas", "question_index": 8, "text": "I thought you did do that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't."}
{"id": "803717554", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Kirk Douglas", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Star Kirk Douglas", "question_index": 9, "text": "Oh, I'm sorry - my mistake.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wanted to produce \"Lust For Life.\" I've..."}
{"id": "803717554", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Kirk Douglas", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Star Kirk Douglas", "question_index": 10, "text": "Why did you want to start your own production company? Did you feel like you didn't have enough freedom...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Produced \"Spartacus,\" \"Vikings\" \"Paths Of Glory,\" \"Lonely Are The Brave.\" I wanted to produce \"Lust For Life,\" and I went to buy it and found - MGM said, we own it. And I said, oh, I want to play t"}
{"id": "803717554", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Kirk Douglas", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Star Kirk Douglas", "question_index": 11, "text": "...As an actor?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "803717554", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Kirk Douglas", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Star Kirk Douglas", "question_index": 12, "text": "I want to talk to you a little bit about the film \"Spartacus,\" in which you both starred and produced. You had starred in \"The Vikings,\" and you write in your new autobiography \"The Ragman's Son\" that after starring in \"The Vikings,\" you thought, that's it - no more epics for me. And then you go and turn around and actually produce one of the real big epics, \"Spartacus.\" Why did you want to make an epic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, because that was a very unique thing at that time. But I wanted a production company so that I could find something that I wanted to do and then try to develop it. And sometimes, I was very "}
{"id": "803717554", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Kirk Douglas", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Star Kirk Douglas", "question_index": 13, "text": "You mentioned the characters and some of the actors. You ended up casting Jean Simmons in the role of Spartacus' lover and the woman who he has a baby with. And initially, you didn't want to cast her because she's British, and you thought that that would ruin the linguistic pattern of the movie. And I'd love for you to explain what you meant by that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I didn't want to make an epic. And one of the first things I said to my group - I said, look. If we do this picture \"Spartacus,\" let's make it as if it were a small picture. And to me, if you lo"}
{"id": "803717554", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Kirk Douglas", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Star Kirk Douglas", "question_index": 14, "text": "That's right. They're great...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I have a very simple - for example, when I did \"The Vikings,\" all the Vikings are Americans. We have a rougher pattern of speech. The English have a more elegant pattern of speech, so that makes"}
{"id": "803717554", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Kirk Douglas", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Star Kirk Douglas", "question_index": 15, "text": "...Stage actors, British stage actors.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The slaves..."}
{"id": "803717554", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Kirk Douglas", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Star Kirk Douglas", "question_index": 16, "text": "Not only that - ethnic, right? Jewish, Italian - you, Jewish; Tony Curtis, Italian - no. Tony Curtis is Jewish, too, actually, isn't he?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The slaves, like myself, were Americans."}
{"id": "803717554", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Kirk Douglas", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Star Kirk Douglas", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yeah, that's right. I always forget that", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "803717554", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Kirk Douglas", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Star Kirk Douglas", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "803717554", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Kirk Douglas", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Star Kirk Douglas", "question_index": 19, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But it doesn't matter. You see, it's just that Americans have a rougher speech pattern."}
{"id": "803717554", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Kirk Douglas", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Star Kirk Douglas", "question_index": 20, "text": "So the slaves have the rough quality.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For example, I often think that Shakespeare very often is better-played when it's done in the United States because those beautiful lines take on a rougher quality that I think Shakespeare really inte"}
{"id": "803717554", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Kirk Douglas", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Star Kirk Douglas", "question_index": 21, "text": "And the Romans have the more genteel, educated...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "803717554", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Kirk Douglas", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Star Kirk Douglas", "question_index": 22, "text": "...Refined sound.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "803717554", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Kirk Douglas", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Star Kirk Douglas", "question_index": 23, "text": "Well, that's right. Well, Dalton Trumbo was writing it under a pseudonym, like he was writing all of his screenplays at the time, because he was blacklisted. And you insisted that for this movie, he actually use his real name. Did you think that the time was right where you could say, this is Dalton Trumbo, who wrote the movie, and - where it would actually be accepted, that the time was right to break the blacklisting and have it be accepted, at least in part of Hollywood?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course, \"Spartacus\" - you picked on a picture that plays a big - is a big section in my book because so much happened during the making of \"Spartacus.\" The most historical event was the breaking of"}
{"id": "803717554", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Kirk Douglas", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Star Kirk Douglas", "question_index": 24, "text": "That was his pen name for this movie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm not so sure. I did it rather impulsively. I don't think I was aware until a couple years later as I reflected upon it. And, like, you know, as I explain in my book, I began to see, you know,"}
{"id": "803717554", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Kirk Douglas", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Star Kirk Douglas", "question_index": 25, "text": "Let me play a clip from the movie, and this is toward the end of the first half of the film. Remember, this movie had an intermission", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR, and we're listening to the interview Terry Gross recorded with actor Kirk Douglas in 1988. Douglas died Wednesday at the age of 103. When we left off, they were talking about Dougla"}
{"id": "803717554", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Kirk Douglas", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Star Kirk Douglas", "question_index": 26, "text": ". Spartacus and many other slaves have escaped from slavery. After they've escaped, many of the slaves are just drinking wine. They're having Romans fight each other as if the Romans were slaves. And Spartacus is saying, what are you doing with your lives? You should be doing something more productive. And he suggests that they actually fight the Roman Empire.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR, and we're listening to the interview Terry Gross recorded with actor Kirk Douglas in 1988. Douglas died Wednesday at the age of 103. When we left off, they were talking about Dougla"}
{"id": "803717554", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Kirk Douglas", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Star Kirk Douglas", "question_index": 27, "text": "Well, they get their army, and you, as Spartacus, lead them against the Roman army. I think the battle scene in \"Spartacus,\" where the slave army and the Roman army fight, is one of the most interestingly choreographed movie battle scenes. The slaves are masked in almost a checkerboard foundation - formation. There are people - in the slave and the Roman army, as far as you can see, it is this huge vista of people", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As characters, screaming)."}
{"id": "803717554", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Kirk Douglas", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Star Kirk Douglas", "question_index": 28, "text": ". I'm wondering what your most vivid memory of being in the middle of all of that is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As characters, screaming)."}
{"id": "803717554", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Kirk Douglas", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Star Kirk Douglas", "question_index": 29, "text": "There is a scene at the end that is a mass crucifixion, and you're one of the many actors on the cross", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you see, all of that was historically accurate. We studied how Romans fought and how they arranged their armies. We shot the entire picture in the United States, except for those scenes, which w"}
{"id": "803717554", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Kirk Douglas", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Star Kirk Douglas", "question_index": 30, "text": "at the end of the movie. And I'd really like to know how you were attached to the cross so that you could hang there without really hurting yourself.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you see, all of that was historically accurate. We studied how Romans fought and how they arranged their armies. We shot the entire picture in the United States, except for those scenes, which w"}
{"id": "803717554", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Kirk Douglas", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Star Kirk Douglas", "question_index": 31, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, as a matter of fact, playing that scene, we learned an awful lot about crucifixion. We learned that it would be impossible to be crucified the way, very often, you see the crucifixion. You know,"}
{"id": "803717554", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Kirk Douglas", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Star Kirk Douglas", "question_index": 32, "text": "You quote your wife in your book, who once said to you, it's an unnatural life just being wrapped up in make-believe characters. You've played so many different characters through the course of your career. Were you ever confused about who you really were as opposed to who the characters you played were?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...So that you wouldn't be sagging down in a very unattractive position."}
{"id": "803717554", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Kirk Douglas", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Star Kirk Douglas", "question_index": 33, "text": "People think of you. They think of your voice. Physically, they really think of the dimple in your chin. And when you started acting, was there ever a time where that was seen as a disadvantage? Did anyone ever try to cover that up with makeup?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the only time I encountered something similar to that was in playing \"Lust For Life.\" Van Gogh really was a painful character to play. And shooting a picture - we shot at Auvers-sur-Oise and (un"}
{"id": "803717554", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Kirk Douglas", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Star Kirk Douglas", "question_index": 34, "text": "Oh, really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. The first time I came to Hollywood, you know, and they're looking at this Broadway actor, there was talk of - and they did. They filled it up with putty."}
{"id": "803717554", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Kirk Douglas", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Star Kirk Douglas", "question_index": 35, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it had to be an awful lot of putty because I don't have a dimple in my chin. I have a hole in my chin."}
{"id": "803717554", "date": "2020-02-07", "guest": "Kirk Douglas", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Hollywood Star Kirk Douglas", "question_index": 36, "text": "So you never let them actually shoot you with the putty in your chin.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it annoyed me. I said, look. I just pushed the putty out. I said, look. This is what you get if you want it. I'm not going to change it, so let me know if this is what you want, or I'm going back "}
{"id": "804811544", "date": "2020-02-11", "guest": "Mckay Coppins", "title": "Journalist Details 'Brazen Ways' Trump Will Use His Power To Get Reelected", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. (Reading) The Trump campaign is planning to spend more than $1 billion, and it will be aided by a vast coalition of partisan media, outside political groups and freelance operatives who are poised to wage what could be the most extensive disinformation campaign in U.S. history. Whether or not it succeeds in reelecting the president, the wreckage leaves behind could be irreparable. That's what my guest, McKay Coppins, writes in his article \"The 2020 Disinformation War: Deepfakes, Anonymous Text Messages, Potemkin Local-News Sites, And Opposition Research On Reporters - A Field Guide To The Year's Election And What It Could Do To The Country.\" It's published in the March issue of The Atlantic, where Coppins is a staff writer. While researching the piece, he tried to live in the same information world as Trump supporters so that he'd receive the same disinformation supporters did. In his article, he explains the surprising impact that had on him. Coppins wrote a 2015 book called \"The Wilderness: Deep Inside The Republican Party's Combative, Contentious, Chaotic Quest To Take Back The White House.\" McKay Coppins, welcome back to FRESH AIR. So what was your mission when you started this piece trying to understand how disinformation works?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "804811544", "date": "2020-02-11", "guest": "Mckay Coppins", "title": "Journalist Details 'Brazen Ways' Trump Will Use His Power To Get Reelected", "question_index": 1, "text": "So to do this, you had to get on the right lists. So you'd get the texts, you'd see the tweets, you'd get - you know, you'd see the right Facebook accounts and Facebook ads. What did you do to get on the right lists?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And, you know, as a reporter, I'm always interested in kind of the systems that lead to these views rather than kind of just interrogating individual people. So I knew, of course, that the Trump cam"}
{"id": "804811544", "date": "2020-02-11", "guest": "Mckay Coppins", "title": "Journalist Details 'Brazen Ways' Trump Will Use His Power To Get Reelected", "question_index": 2, "text": "Tell us some of the typical messages that you got and some of the more outrageous ones.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I got a good sense of kind of the - what the campaign was pumping out on a day-to-day basis."}
{"id": "804811544", "date": "2020-02-11", "guest": "Mckay Coppins", "title": "Journalist Details 'Brazen Ways' Trump Will Use His Power To Get Reelected", "question_index": 3, "text": "So give us a sense of the more fictitious narratives that you were reading.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, as you can imagine, a lot of them were sort of traditional, if especially shouty and aggressive partisan messages. You know, this is a hoax. This is a witch hunt. You know, the Democrats are out"}
{"id": "804811544", "date": "2020-02-11", "guest": "Mckay Coppins", "title": "Journalist Details 'Brazen Ways' Trump Will Use His Power To Get Reelected", "question_index": 4, "text": "Well, you were following the impeachment proceedings. What impact did this counternarrative, an often fictitious counternarrative, what impact did that have on you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the overall narrative that they were pushing was that President Trump was, in this Ukraine matter, primarily interested in cracking down on foreign corruption and that Democrats were trying to use "}
{"id": "804811544", "date": "2020-02-11", "guest": "Mckay Coppins", "title": "Journalist Details 'Brazen Ways' Trump Will Use His Power To Get Reelected", "question_index": 5, "text": "It turns out there's a word for this, an expression for this - scholars call this censorship through noise. Explain what censorship through noise is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I have to say, I was actually pretty surprised by the effect it had in part because I went into this exercise as a journalist knowing what I was doing, and I felt that, you know, my inhe"}
{"id": "804811544", "date": "2020-02-11", "guest": "Mckay Coppins", "title": "Journalist Details 'Brazen Ways' Trump Will Use His Power To Get Reelected", "question_index": 6, "text": "You say that the Trump campaign might be the most extensive disinformation campaign in U.S. history. What are some of the signs of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's interesting. It's a term scholars use to describe what illiberal political leaders have done in other countries, which is, you know, in the past, the way that illiberal autocrats or dictato"}
{"id": "804811544", "date": "2020-02-11", "guest": "Mckay Coppins", "title": "Journalist Details 'Brazen Ways' Trump Will Use His Power To Get Reelected", "question_index": 7, "text": "So Trump has more money and more influence now to spread disinformation than he did during the 2016 campaign.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You combine the fact that this president is willing to lie and traffics in conspiracy theories and says things that are untrue at a rate that is kind of unprecedented for a president, with all of thes"}
{"id": "804811544", "date": "2020-02-11", "guest": "Mckay Coppins", "title": "Journalist Details 'Brazen Ways' Trump Will Use His Power To Get Reelected", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is McKay Coppins. He's a staff writer for The Atlantic, and his new article is called \"The Disinformation War.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. I mean, you have to remember in 2016, Donald Trump, first of all, was - started out as one of 16 Republican presidential candidates. He was not somebody who had a large, sophisticated camp"}
{"id": "804811544", "date": "2020-02-11", "guest": "Mckay Coppins", "title": "Journalist Details 'Brazen Ways' Trump Will Use His Power To Get Reelected", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is McKay Coppins, a staff writer for The Atlantic. His new article is called \"The Disinformation War: Deepfakes, Anonymous Text Messages, Potemkin Local-News Sites, And Opposition Research On Reporters - A Field Guide To This Year's Election And What It Could Do To The Country.\" So we've been talking about how the Trump campaign is using social media and using it in part to sow disinformation. The person presiding over the Trump campaign digital effort is Brad Parscale, who was also the digital director of Trump's 2016 campaign. What are some of the techniques that you think he came up with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. I mean, you have to remember in 2016, Donald Trump, first of all, was - started out as one of 16 Republican presidential candidates. He was not somebody who had a large, sophisticated camp"}
{"id": "804811544", "date": "2020-02-11", "guest": "Mckay Coppins", "title": "Journalist Details 'Brazen Ways' Trump Will Use His Power To Get Reelected", "question_index": 10, "text": "And the Republican Party has information on just about every voter to help them figure out who to target.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, it's interesting. Brad Parscale is not somebody with a background in politics. In fact, in 2016, the way he got into the campaign was he was hired to design a simple landing page for t"}
{"id": "804811544", "date": "2020-02-11", "guest": "Mckay Coppins", "title": "Journalist Details 'Brazen Ways' Trump Will Use His Power To Get Reelected", "question_index": 11, "text": "So as a comparison between what Republicans have done and Democrats, you write that from June to November, during Trump's campaign in 2016, Trump's campaign took out 5.9 million ads on Facebook; Hillary Clinton's campaign took out 66,000. So, again, that's 5.9 million ads versus 66,000 ads on Facebook. What does that say to you? And do you expect that this time around those numbers will be similarly disproportionate?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's been reported that the RNC and the Trump campaign have compiled an average of 3,000 data points on every voter in America. And so that means everything from what you like to watch on TV, wh"}
{"id": "804811544", "date": "2020-02-11", "guest": "Mckay Coppins", "title": "Journalist Details 'Brazen Ways' Trump Will Use His Power To Get Reelected", "question_index": 12, "text": "My guest is McKay Coppins, a staff writer for The Atlantic. His new article is titled \"The 2020 Disinformation War.\" After a break, we'll talk about how Trump allies have scraped the social media accounts of hundreds of political journalists, searching for embarrassing posts to be used against them when a story is deemed unfair or politically damaging. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, probably not. I mean, part of the reason that the Trump campaign was willing to go so heavy on Facebook ads was, frankly, because they didn't have the money that the Clinton campaign did to put "}
{"id": "804811544", "date": "2020-02-11", "guest": "Mckay Coppins", "title": "Journalist Details 'Brazen Ways' Trump Will Use His Power To Get Reelected", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with McKay Coppins, whose new article, \"The 2020 Disinformation War,\" is in the current issue of The Atlantic, where Coppins is a staff writer. He writes about how the Trump campaign and a vast coalition of partisan media, outside political groups and freelance operatives are poised to wage what could be the most extensive disinformation campaign in U.S. history. As part of his research, Coppins tried to live in the same media and social media world as Trump supporters so he could monitor the information or disinformation they were receiving. Mark Zuckerberg is allowing candidates to place false political ads. He's not - he's decided Facebook should not have editorial control over that. How does that compare with commercial ads on Facebook?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, probably not. I mean, part of the reason that the Trump campaign was willing to go so heavy on Facebook ads was, frankly, because they didn't have the money that the Clinton campaign did to put "}
{"id": "804811544", "date": "2020-02-11", "guest": "Mckay Coppins", "title": "Journalist Details 'Brazen Ways' Trump Will Use His Power To Get Reelected", "question_index": 14, "text": "It sounds like during this campaign that the Trump campaign is emphasizing texting more than it did in 2016, and you were receiving Trump campaign texts. How is the texting platform seen as a particularly good one for the campaign?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, this is a very important point because when a company places an ad on Facebook, it is subject to fact-checking. It's not allowed to say obviously false things about its product. And if it does, "}
{"id": "804811544", "date": "2020-02-11", "guest": "Mckay Coppins", "title": "Journalist Details 'Brazen Ways' Trump Will Use His Power To Get Reelected", "question_index": 15, "text": "One of the things you learned about in writing about the disinformation war was how the Trump inner circle amplifies their attacks against journalists who they see as being anti-Trump. So give us an example of one of the stories, you know, that a journalist wrote that resulted in a whole campaign against him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And I bet a lot of your listeners have experienced this. You know, there's been a huge uptick in unsolicited political text messages this campaign season, and there's a reason for that. So until"}
{"id": "804811544", "date": "2020-02-11", "guest": "Mckay Coppins", "title": "Journalist Details 'Brazen Ways' Trump Will Use His Power To Get Reelected", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, in fact, you say that the Trump organization has basically vacuumed up a lot of information and old social media posts by a lot of journalists, particularly ones who they think might say negative things about Trump so that they have this negative information that they could use against the journalist as needed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, I was kind of made aware of this effort last year. I was on the phone with a Republican operative who is close to the Trump family, working on a separate story. And he casually mentioned o"}
{"id": "804811544", "date": "2020-02-11", "guest": "Mckay Coppins", "title": "Journalist Details 'Brazen Ways' Trump Will Use His Power To Get Reelected", "question_index": 17, "text": "Have you found a specific example where Trump operatives or allies have used information from one of these dossiers to attack a journalist?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So what's been described to me is that they have this dossier where, like you said, yes, they've scraped all these social media posts. And I've even been told that they have - they hired a progr"}
{"id": "804811544", "date": "2020-02-11", "guest": "Mckay Coppins", "title": "Journalist Details 'Brazen Ways' Trump Will Use His Power To Get Reelected", "question_index": 18, "text": "And then you found a whole mechanism - once information from the dossier is plucked out to be used against the journalist, there's a whole mechanism for amplifying it. What's that mechanism?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, there have been a few examples. They've gone after journalists at CNN, Washington Post, New York Times. These are kind of some of the outlets that the president complains about most often. In on"}
{"id": "804811544", "date": "2020-02-11", "guest": "Mckay Coppins", "title": "Journalist Details 'Brazen Ways' Trump Will Use His Power To Get Reelected", "question_index": 19, "text": "So what you're describing is this feedback loop where somebody like Don Jr. or a Trump operative sends a story to Breitbart, Breitbart writes the story and then the headline can be tweeted out by Republican operatives or Don Jr. in addition to Fox News. So, like, you send the story to Breitbart. Breitbart writes the headline. Then you retweet it, and it looks like, look what Breitbart said; we're just amplifying that, when they're just amplifying the message of Don Jr. and the Republican operatives.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so often, what happens, I'm told, is that Donald Trump Jr. will flag a story in a text thread that he uses for this purpose. He often texts with, you know, GOP operatives and conservative media "}
{"id": "804811544", "date": "2020-02-11", "guest": "Mckay Coppins", "title": "Journalist Details 'Brazen Ways' Trump Will Use His Power To Get Reelected", "question_index": 20, "text": "So that you just give up trying to discern the difference between the two.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's exactly right. And, you know, what's notable about this - because I think that some people read about this effort or might hear about this effort and say, look; you know, there's nothing wrong "}
{"id": "804811544", "date": "2020-02-11", "guest": "Mckay Coppins", "title": "Journalist Details 'Brazen Ways' Trump Will Use His Power To Get Reelected", "question_index": 21, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk more about the disinformation war in the presidential campaign. If you're just joining us, my guest is McKay Coppins, a staff writer for The Atlantic, and \"The Disinformation War\" is the title of his new article. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly, so that everybody feels like, you know, this is all just a matter of opinion. It's all a matter of worldview. It's not a matter of facts. I'll have my set of facts, you have your set of facts"}
{"id": "804811544", "date": "2020-02-11", "guest": "Mckay Coppins", "title": "Journalist Details 'Brazen Ways' Trump Will Use His Power To Get Reelected", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is McKay Coppins, a staff writer for The Atlantic. His new piece is called \"The Disinformation War: A Field Guide To This Year's Election And What It Could Do To The Country.\" I want to get back to the discrediting of journalists and digging up embarrassing information and storing it and then using it when the time is right to attack them. Do you think that this is having a chilling effect on journalists because - let's face it. A lot of journalists now are not only getting attacked on social media. They're getting death threats. I mean, their families are in - are being threatened, too. It's really a terrible period in that sense.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly, so that everybody feels like, you know, this is all just a matter of opinion. It's all a matter of worldview. It's not a matter of facts. I'll have my set of facts, you have your set of facts"}
{"id": "804811544", "date": "2020-02-11", "guest": "Mckay Coppins", "title": "Journalist Details 'Brazen Ways' Trump Will Use His Power To Get Reelected", "question_index": 23, "text": "Have any Trump operatives gone after you because of your piece on the disinformation war in The Atlantic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, so I would say two things. One is that the journalists I know who cover the administration do try to keep this noise out of their mind when they're doing their jobs, but it is hard, right? In th"}
{"id": "804811544", "date": "2020-02-11", "guest": "Mckay Coppins", "title": "Journalist Details 'Brazen Ways' Trump Will Use His Power To Get Reelected", "question_index": 24, "text": "Give us an example.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not yet. You know, there have certainly been criticisms from the right. And the Trump campaign put out a statement saying that my story was itself disinformation, which kind of neatly encapsulates, I "}
{"id": "804811544", "date": "2020-02-11", "guest": "Mckay Coppins", "title": "Journalist Details 'Brazen Ways' Trump Will Use His Power To Get Reelected", "question_index": 25, "text": "I want to get back to some of the techniques that are being used now to spread disinformation. You write that the Trump campaign is planning to open up a new front, which is local news. What's the plan?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, actually, the first example was years and years ago, before he was even running for president. I wrote a profile of him in 2014, when he was first thinking about running for president. And I end"}
{"id": "804811544", "date": "2020-02-11", "guest": "Mckay Coppins", "title": "Journalist Details 'Brazen Ways' Trump Will Use His Power To Get Reelected", "question_index": 26, "text": "They're also apparently creating versions of the local press that aren't really local.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Brad Parscale, Trump's campaign manager, spoke to donors in Miami last year and actually said that one of the things he wants to do is train swarms of surrogates - those are his words - to under"}
{"id": "804811544", "date": "2020-02-11", "guest": "Mckay Coppins", "title": "Journalist Details 'Brazen Ways' Trump Will Use His Power To Get Reelected", "question_index": 27, "text": "So this is where we are now. When it comes to some local stories, you not only have to ask yourself, is this story true? - but is the website real? Is this publication a real local publication?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, this is a kind of strange trend that people began noticing a couple years ago. There have been all these websites popping up across the Internet with innocuous names like the Arizona Monitor and"}
{"id": "804811544", "date": "2020-02-11", "guest": "Mckay Coppins", "title": "Journalist Details 'Brazen Ways' Trump Will Use His Power To Get Reelected", "question_index": 28, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is McKay Coppins, a staff writer for The New Yorker. His new piece is called \"The Disinformation War: A Field Guide To This Year's Election And What It Could Do To The Country.\" We'll be back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's right. And look, it's asking an enormous amount of the average news consumer, who does not spend hours a day like I do, frankly, you know, reading the news and reading various publication"}
{"id": "804811544", "date": "2020-02-11", "guest": "Mckay Coppins", "title": "Journalist Details 'Brazen Ways' Trump Will Use His Power To Get Reelected", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is McKay Coppins, a staff writer for The Atlantic. His new piece is called \"The Disinformation War: Deepfakes, Anonymous Text Messages, Potemkin Local-News Sites And Opposition Research On Reporters - A Field Guide To This Year's Election And What It Could Do To The Country.\" The question has been raised, if Republicans are using dirty tricks - and especially dirty tricks in the digital sphere - does that mean in order to win, that Democrats have to do that, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's right. And look, it's asking an enormous amount of the average news consumer, who does not spend hours a day like I do, frankly, you know, reading the news and reading various publication"}
{"id": "804811544", "date": "2020-02-11", "guest": "Mckay Coppins", "title": "Journalist Details 'Brazen Ways' Trump Will Use His Power To Get Reelected", "question_index": 30, "text": "What's your reaction to that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is an active debate among Democratic strategists right now. There are some who say this is precisely the wrong time for Democrats to abandon their principles of fairness and honesty and that we n"}
{"id": "804811544", "date": "2020-02-11", "guest": "Mckay Coppins", "title": "Journalist Details 'Brazen Ways' Trump Will Use His Power To Get Reelected", "question_index": 31, "text": "McKay Coppins, thank you so much for coming back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", as a journalist, my bias is strongly toward truth and accuracy. And I have a lot of concern about what will happen to our information ecosystem if the Democrats decide to escalate and do - and mimic"}
{"id": "804811544", "date": "2020-02-11", "guest": "Mckay Coppins", "title": "Journalist Details 'Brazen Ways' Trump Will Use His Power To Get Reelected", "question_index": 32, "text": "McKay Coppins is a staff writer for The Atlantic. His new article is titled \"The 2020 Disinformation War.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be MSNBC legal analyst Jill Wine-Banks, who was a young lawyer in the special prosecutor's office during the Watergate investigation. She'll talk about confronting Nixon administration insiders on the witness stand, enduring sexism in the courtroom and how the Watergate probe differs from investigations into President Trump. She's written a new book called \"The Watergate Girl.\" I hope you can join us. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Thea Chaloner, Mooj Zadie and Seth Kelley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having me."}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 0, "text": "Well, that's the theory of how his relationships work - you know, you have to find somebody whose taste conforms to yours, and taste is everything. Let's hear how this works in practice. I'm going to ask you to skip ahead to Page 161, when a friend of the main character's, you know, has met a woman. The problem is, this woman doesn't have very good taste in music. Why don't you read it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) A while back, when the Dick and Barry and I agreed that what really matters is what you like, not what you are like, Barry proposed the idea of a questionnaire for prospective partners, a tw"}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 1, "text": "Well, Nick Hornby", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) And as a Simple Minds fan, Dick confides. Oh, right. I don't know what to say. This, in our universe, is a staggering piece of information. We hate Simple Minds. They were No. 1 in our top f"}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 2, "text": ", is this an obsession you understand, measuring the whole world by taste?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) And as a Simple Minds fan, Dick confides. Oh, right. I don't know what to say. This, in our universe, is a staggering piece of information. We hate Simple Minds. They were No. 1 in our top f"}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 3, "text": "How obsessed are you with your favorites in books, records, television, movies and other people's?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I understand it; I don't necessarily share it, but I've certainly had my moments, I think."}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 4, "text": "So do you think that the male aspect is the list aspect, you know, the quantifying aspect or just the obsession with taste?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm always very interested in other people's stuff, and I guess it's something that I want to know fairly quickly. But I don't think I'm alone in this, and I think a lot of men in particular are like "}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 5, "text": "Now, I confess, I really am baffled when people get together who don't share the same taste. I mean, if somebody, like, is obsessed with movies and starts a relationship with someone who doesn't like to go to the movies, you wonder are their inner lives compatible?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the quantifying aspect is very important."}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 6, "text": "Pauline Kael, the film critic, once wrote in one of her essays that - I think she broke up with someone after they saw \"West Side Story\" together because he loved the film and she detested it, and she just", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I would say that they probably aren't. I think it probably gets easier as you get older to form relationships and to find points of contact that aren't based on taste. But I think at the times w"}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 7, "text": "couldn't imagine seeing him any more after that. Have you ever been through something like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I would say that they probably aren't. I think it probably gets easier as you get older to form relationships and to find points of contact that aren't based on taste. But I think at the times w"}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 8, "text": "Why don't you describe the record store that your main character owns, Championship Vinyl?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, a friend has. Quite recently, they had an argument because a woman described a TV movie as a great film. And you could feel the doubt in his voice, you know, from a very early stage from there aft"}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 9, "text": "Plus a little ska.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's a rather seedy secondhand store for collectors, really, and it sells pretty well all vinyl, I would imagine. They don't have that conversation, but when I imagined it in my head, it's just "}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 10, "text": "Now, some of the customers in this record store are people who, really, virtually have no life outside of looking for rare singles. About one customer, the main character thinks, (reading) I can't imagine telling him anything of a remotely personal nature, that I had a mother and father, say, or that I'd been to school when I was younger. I reckon he'd just blush and stammer and ask if I'd heard the new Lemonheads album.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 11, "text": "What made you think of a character like that? Do you find a lot of people like that who seem to have no life and who live in book or record stores?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 12, "text": "You know, I find with people who are obsessive about music or books or whatever, that there's the kind of person who just has the list who just has the lists, who just has - well, these are my favorites. I like this; I don't like that. And then there's a person who has just a whole kind of constellation of thoughts surrounding it and for who those lists represent a kind of, like, deep inner life and a rich sensibility. Do you know what I mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, well, it was the thing I guess that interested me about people like the characters in the book, is that what they listen to all the time is incredibly emotive and yet they're very anal about stu"}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 13, "text": "One of his early girlfriends back in 1973, her top five recording artists were Carly Simon, Carole King, James Taylor, Cat Stevens and Elton John. And the main character thinks, I can imagine what sort of person she became - a nice person.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure. I mean, I guess it's the difference between a rock critic and a rock fan a lot of the time. I think music is a terribly hard thing to write about. And people like Peter Guralnick and Greil M"}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 14, "text": "Tell me how you chose that list for this early girlfriend.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure. I mean, I guess it's the difference between a rock critic and a rock fan a lot of the time. I think music is a terribly hard thing to write about. And people like Peter Guralnick and Greil M"}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 15, "text": "You know, an interesting thing is, a lot of times - and I think this is particularly true of boys and men - they want to be the mentor in a relationship. So they'll almost, like, seek out somebody who's younger or at least more inexperienced or uneducated in something so that they can teach them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I guess that was pretty much a composite of the record collections that I saw in girlfriends' bedrooms at the time in the mid-'70s. They were all - one of those artists was always represented in"}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think that's very interesting, and I think it's very representative of very common male behavior. And in the book, in \"High Fidelity,\" Rob Fleming spends a lot of his time making compilation t"}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 17, "text": "Tell us more about the compilation tapes he makes and how he uses them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And to that extent, virgin ears are very important to that kind of man."}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 18, "text": "You know, I have to tell you, I've always found that kind of - that male urge to mentor a girlfriend kind of irritating.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they are a kind of means of seduction. And he meets Laura, who's the other central character in the book, at a club where he's a DJ, and he offers to make her a compilation tape of the music tha"}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 19, "text": "Yeah. It's like you - like somebody who doesn't want an equal, so someone who doesn't want somebody they can share an interest with, but they want to be able to, like, teach it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I should think it is, actually."}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 20, "text": "Exactly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Really, you're trying to turn the other person into a female version of yourself, which kind of defeats the point of the relationship, really."}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 21, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Really, you're trying to turn the other person into a female version of yourself, which kind of defeats the point of the relationship, really."}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 22, "text": "Now, what about your top five singles of all time? Do you have such a list?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1995 interview with British writer Nick Hornby. His book \"High Fidelity,\" already adapted into a 2000 movie starring John Cusack, has just been remade as a"}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 23, "text": "Now, your main character not only divides pop culture into top five lists, he divides up his life that way, too. And the book starts with, my desert island all-time top five most memorable split-ups in chronological order - and then the list are the five women or girls", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess the permanent No. 1 is Marvin Gaye, \"Let's Get It On,\" which I think is the greatest piece of pop music ever made. And then the four after that change periodically. But there's always somethin"}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 24, "text": "who left him during his formative years. Did you ever find yourself doing that in real life, or is this just an extreme you invented for your character?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess the permanent No. 1 is Marvin Gaye, \"Let's Get It On,\" which I think is the greatest piece of pop music ever made. And then the four after that change periodically. But there's always somethin"}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 25, "text": "Now, when you were writing this book, did you have to do any research, so to speak? Did you hang out at a record store or observe certain people who you thought were really close to the character that you created for your book? Or did you just already know all this stuff inside out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I think it's something that he would do, and it's another difference between him and me."}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 26, "text": "Oh, I was just going to mention that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think, really, I knew this stuff inside out. There's some stuff about women's underwear in there, which..."}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 27, "text": "I was just going to - that's a really funny part. I mean, this is a character who is really disappointed because, you know, he finally figures out that women save their best, really sexy lingerie for Saturday nights when they expect to actually be sleeping with someone. But then when you actually move in with the woman, there's these kind of, like, tattered, torn undies all over the radiators hanging up to dry", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think, really, I knew this stuff inside out. There's some stuff about women's underwear in there, which..."}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 28, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think, really, I knew this stuff inside out. There's some stuff about women's underwear in there, which..."}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 29, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, that was something that obviously came from bitter experience. But..."}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 30, "text": "And did they concur that that was true?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I did check it out with a lot of women friends, and so that was my one piece of research, was to ask women about their underwear."}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 31, "text": "This is your - that was your engineer", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's embarrassing but true."}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 32, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's embarrassing but true."}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 33, "text": "...In England nodding?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's right."}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 34, "text": "So how big is your record collection? I'll move the subject...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 35, "text": "...Off of underwear for a while.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 36, "text": "That's actually pretty modest for a - by collecting standards.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I guess I have 700 or 800 vinyl albums and a few hundred CDs and quite a few tapes, as well, so - I've got to the stage when I have most of the things I want, really."}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 37, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I'm not really a collector, and I have ditched loads of stuff as I've got older, which Rob Fleming, the guy in the book, would never do. I mean, he'd never get rid of anything - and because he u"}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 38, "text": "What do you mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So..."}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 39, "text": "Did you ever have to divide up a record collection after living with somebody for an amount of time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so, you know, you sell all the dodgy heavy metal albums, all the Black Sabbath records I bought when I was 16, and they are now no longer to be found in my record collection."}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 40, "text": "Now, how do you keep your record collection - just alphabetized straightforwardly?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I've always kept things very separate."}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 41, "text": "What", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Alphabetized but with the first names first. So Bob Dylan would be under B."}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 42, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Alphabetized but with the first names first. So Bob Dylan would be under B."}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 43, "text": "Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 44, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've always had a problem..."}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 45, "text": "Uh-huh. Well, I guess this answers the Sun Ra question. I mean, it would...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've always found this problem with certain artist groups like - you know, like the J. Geils Band. If you walk into a record store, you never know whether to go to J or G. And it's firmly under J in m"}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 46, "text": "...Help you deal with that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 47, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sun Ra - there's a band that used to be here called Danny Wilson, and everyone in the record store thought that Danny Wilson was a solo artist, so they always put their records on the W. But it was ac"}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 48, "text": "Your main character in your novel works in a record store, then owns a record store. A lot of people, particularly, like writers, musicians, often work in book or record stores before being able to make a living as a performer or a writer. You apparently didn't go that route, but what kind of jobs did you have before you actually were able to make a living as a writer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...\"Meet Danny Wilson.\" So, again, you see, that's the kind of little problem that this clears up. And I recommend it to all your listeners."}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 49, "text": "Excuse me, a what?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was a teacher for some years. And later on, as I started to write a bit more, I was a part-time teacher. And then I got a job working for a very large Korean multinational company as a kind of"}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 50, "text": "Now, did you know then you wanted to write?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "An English expression - a dogsbody, where, you know, you just do what they tell you to do. But anything where it was easier to be English than to be Korean, then I did the job. So I did a lot of lette"}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 51, "text": "Well, Nick Hornby, I'd like to end with one of your favorite records. You want to choose a record to end with? It could be your favorite single of all time or something else.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd always wanted to write since I was about 16 or 17, I guess like most people do. And also, like most people, I actually didn't do a thing about it. Each new job that I got, I just thought, well, I'"}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 52, "text": "And defend your choice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think I'd choose the favorite singer of all time. I'd like to hear \"Let's Get It On\" by Marvin Gaye."}
{"id": "805687812", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Zoe Kravitz", "title": "Writer Nick Hornby On 'High Fidelity' And Pop Culture Obsession", "question_index": 53, "text": "I want to thank you a whole lot for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because it's sort of 3 1/2 minutes long, which is the length that pop music should be. It has more voices than just about any other record since the Hallelujah Chorus. And they're all Marvin Gaye's vo"}
{"id": "806028373", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "title": "Remembering Joseph Shabalala, Founder Of Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "question_index": 0, "text": "Joseph Shabalala, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing in non-English language)."}
{"id": "806028373", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "title": "Remembering Joseph Shabalala, Founder Of Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "question_index": 1, "text": "You've traveled such a big distance in your life in terms of meeting different cultures and becoming known around the world. I'm interested in where you started - like, where you lived when you were growing up, what kind of life you had, what kind of work.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much."}
{"id": "806028373", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "title": "Remembering Joseph Shabalala, Founder Of Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "question_index": 2, "text": "You were...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God. When you take my mind back like that, I was just on a farm sitting in that hut and then round that fire. I was a herd boy."}
{"id": "806028373", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "title": "Remembering Joseph Shabalala, Founder Of Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "question_index": 3, "text": "When you were herding - sheep, was it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Herd boy - looking after cattle, looking after goats and sheep. Nobody knows that. It's unbelievable to see myself around, including Russia, Japan, New Zealand, Australia. Even my people, even my moth"}
{"id": "806028373", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "title": "Remembering Joseph Shabalala, Founder Of Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "question_index": 4, "text": "Did you sing a lot then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes - sheep, goats and cattle."}
{"id": "806028373", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "title": "Remembering Joseph Shabalala, Founder Of Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "question_index": 5, "text": "Would it be imposing to ask you to maybe sing one - the kind of song you'd sing back then when you were young?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Oh, yes, I - that's where I used to - I feel that I have music because all that time, I just composed a new song and sing and sing. Even the (??) guys - that the guys who were workin"}
{"id": "806028373", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "title": "Remembering Joseph Shabalala, Founder Of Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "question_index": 6, "text": "I want to play something that one of your groups recorded in 1967, and this is \"Umama Lo.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Let me squeeze my mind back. I remember this song I used to sing for my cousin. Oh, my God - oh, that song - just - and the song says, (singing in non-English language). And there was another song I"}
{"id": "806028373", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "title": "Remembering Joseph Shabalala, Founder Of Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "question_index": 7, "text": "What does \"Umama Lo\" mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Umama Lo.\""}
{"id": "806028373", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "title": "Remembering Joseph Shabalala, Founder Of Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "question_index": 8, "text": "Let's hear it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Which means, this is my mother."}
{"id": "806028373", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "title": "Remembering Joseph Shabalala, Founder Of Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "question_index": 9, "text": "Joseph Shabalala is my guest, the founder of Ladysmith Black Mambazo. You're known around the world now, and that recognition came at the beginning as a result of the album that you recorded with Paul Simon, the \"Graceland\" record. How did he find you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing in non-English language)."}
{"id": "806028373", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "title": "Remembering Joseph Shabalala, Founder Of Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "question_index": 10, "text": "Oh, right - yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In fact, Paul Simon, before he left America, he know - he heard about Black Mambazo because when he arrived in Johannesburg, he just named my name. He said, I want to see Joseph Shabalala, the leader "}
{"id": "806028373", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "title": "Remembering Joseph Shabalala, Founder Of Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "question_index": 11, "text": "What were your first impressions the first time you started singing in the United States with Paul Simon? And you're singing in a really different kind of context than you were used to. I don't even know if you had performed with white people in the audience before. Had you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing in non-English language). (Singing) Homeless, homeless. Moonlight sleeping on a midnight lake. Homeless, homeless. Moonlight sleeping on a midnight lake. And we are homeless, we are homeless."}
{"id": "806028373", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "title": "Remembering Joseph Shabalala, Founder Of Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "question_index": 12, "text": "Let me play an example of the kind of singing that you're doing now. This is from your recent record. And this track that we're going to hear was produced by George Clinton, the funk star.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the conversation between Terry Gross and Joseph Shabalala, founder of the South African singing group Ladysmith Black Mambazo. He died Tuesday at the age of 78. Th"}
{"id": "806028373", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "title": "Remembering Joseph Shabalala, Founder Of Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "question_index": 13, "text": "And I think it's kind of interesting that a group like yours, which is much more rooted in South African tradition, should have teamed up with one of the fathers of funk, George Clinton. Why did you two come together?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "806028373", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "title": "Remembering Joseph Shabalala, Founder Of Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "question_index": 14, "text": "Do you have very different styles of working?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In fact, I'm a person who like many different things, but I love the way George Clinton put together his music and those noise - (vocalizing). And I said, this guy's like Black Mambazo, and they put t"}
{"id": "806028373", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "title": "Remembering Joseph Shabalala, Founder Of Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "question_index": 15, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. Yes."}
{"id": "806028373", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "title": "Remembering Joseph Shabalala, Founder Of Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, let's hear how it sounds. This is from the Ladysmith Black Mambazo record \"Two Worlds One Heart.\" This is the piece \"Scatter The Fire.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Funk and Zulu."}
{"id": "806028373", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "title": "Remembering Joseph Shabalala, Founder Of Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "question_index": 17, "text": "That's Ladysmith Black Mambazo and a track produced by funkster (ph) George Clinton.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yabo (ph), you check this out. (Singing in non-English language)."}
{"id": "806028373", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "title": "Remembering Joseph Shabalala, Founder Of Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "question_index": 18, "text": "And you say it, too, after him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I love when they - what do they call it? - George Clinton's son says, check this out, man."}
{"id": "806028373", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "title": "Remembering Joseph Shabalala, Founder Of Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "question_index": 19, "text": "So how do you like rap? I mean, do...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I say, you check this out."}
{"id": "806028373", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "title": "Remembering Joseph Shabalala, Founder Of Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yeah. And on this record, too, you sing something with The Winans, the American gospel group...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I like it very much. In fact, I like all beautiful music. But my favorite is gospel. Yeah."}
{"id": "806028373", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "title": "Remembering Joseph Shabalala, Founder Of Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "question_index": 21, "text": "...The African American gospel group. Did you hear gospel music growing up? What kind of music did you sing in church?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes."}
{"id": "806028373", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "title": "Remembering Joseph Shabalala, Founder Of Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "question_index": 22, "text": "But I know you're a minister now, which is why I'm thinking of church.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my - now, when I grew up on the farm, I don't know nothing about church."}
{"id": "806028373", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "title": "Remembering Joseph Shabalala, Founder Of Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "question_index": 23, "text": "I've always heard about you that you're not very political. Is that true?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I repent. In fact, I dedicate myself to God. It was 1976, January."}
{"id": "806028373", "date": "2020-02-14", "guest": "Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "title": "Remembering Joseph Shabalala, Founder Of Ladysmith Black Mambazo", "question_index": 24, "text": "Thank you very, very much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. I'm not political. I'm a Christian man, although I point (ph) some other things, which is I just point (ph) - good and bad things, especially how to be good to God, how to praise God, how to "}
{"id": "806991677", "date": "2020-02-18", "guest": "A E Hotchner", "title": "Remembering Ernest Hemingway Biographer A. E. Hotchner", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. The writer A.E. Hotchner was probably best known for his memoir \"Papa Hemingway\" about his friendship with Ernest Hemingway. Hotchner died Saturday at the age of 102. We're going to listen back to the interview I recorded with him about Hemingway, which we first broadcast on the centennial of Hemingway's birth - July 21, 1999. Hotchner was also a friend and neighbor of Paul Newman and cofounded Newman's food company, Newman's Own. Hotchner's memoir about his boyhood, \"King Of The Hill,\" was adapted into a 1993 film by Steven Soderbergh. As Hotchner wrote, the name Hemingway conjures up a man of courage and daring both in his writing and in his way of life, and those traits made an impact on Hotchner. The two men first met in a professional capacity in 1948, when Hotchner was sent to Cuba by Cosmopolitan Magazine to ask Hemingway to write a piece about the future of literature. With Hemingway's blessing, Hotchner went on to adapt several Hemingway works for CBS TV, including \"The Snows Of Kilimanjaro\" and \"For Whom The Bell Tolls.\" Hotchner and Hemingway remained friends until Hemingway's suicide in 1961. Five years later, Hotchner wrote his memoir, \"Papa Hemingway.\" When we spoke, a new edition of the book had just been published with a new preface and new information that Hotchner felt uncomfortable revealing while Hemingway's widow Mary was still alive.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "806991677", "date": "2020-02-18", "guest": "A E Hotchner", "title": "Remembering Ernest Hemingway Biographer A. E. Hotchner", "question_index": 1, "text": "A.E. Hotchner, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "806991677", "date": "2020-02-18", "guest": "A E Hotchner", "title": "Remembering Ernest Hemingway Biographer A. E. Hotchner", "question_index": 2, "text": "Now, you explain in your new edition that Mary, who was Hemingway's fourth and last wife, tried to stop publication of your memoir back in the mid-'60s. What was her objection to it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Glad to see you."}
{"id": "806991677", "date": "2020-02-18", "guest": "A E Hotchner", "title": "Remembering Ernest Hemingway Biographer A. E. Hotchner", "question_index": 3, "text": "Oh, he had a whole creed about honesty in writing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she tried to get an injunction against it. Her objection was, fundamentally, that the last chapters of the book dealt with his decline in the last couple of years of his life mentally and physic"}
{"id": "806991677", "date": "2020-02-18", "guest": "A E Hotchner", "title": "Remembering Ernest Hemingway Biographer A. E. Hotchner", "question_index": 4, "text": "Why should you lie?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course."}
{"id": "806991677", "date": "2020-02-18", "guest": "A E Hotchner", "title": "Remembering Ernest Hemingway Biographer A. E. Hotchner", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So why? And that was really the genesis of the lawsuit. And then she had another very peculiar original thought about what belongs to a writer. She said that my use of dialogue in which I quote Heming"}
{"id": "806991677", "date": "2020-02-18", "guest": "A E Hotchner", "title": "Remembering Ernest Hemingway Biographer A. E. Hotchner", "question_index": 6, "text": "Let's talk about how you first met. It was 1948. You were in your 20s.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Contention that the court of appeals threw out in a hurry."}
{"id": "806991677", "date": "2020-02-18", "guest": "A E Hotchner", "title": "Remembering Ernest Hemingway Biographer A. E. Hotchner", "question_index": 7, "text": "You were sent down by Cosmopolitan Magazine to Hemingway's home in Cuba to invite him to write a piece for the magazine about the future of literature. You say you felt like a horse's ass going down to make him that offer. Why did you feel that way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "806991677", "date": "2020-02-18", "guest": "A E Hotchner", "title": "Remembering Ernest Hemingway Biographer A. E. Hotchner", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, that was such an asinine assignment. But at that point, Cosmopolitan was a literary magazine before Helen Gurley Brown got hold of it and turned it into a sex-for-the-single-girl magazin"}
{"id": "806991677", "date": "2020-02-18", "guest": "A E Hotchner", "title": "Remembering Ernest Hemingway Biographer A. E. Hotchner", "question_index": 9, "text": "It seems to me several times in the early part of your relationship, he put you in an awkward position, where he wasn't meeting a deadline and he was at the same time asking for more money to complete the piece. So you'd have to go back to the publisher or the editor and say, well, he doesn't have the piece and he wants more money. And you couldn't tell for sure if he'd ever really deliver the goods. Wasn't that an awkward position to be in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He said I'll meet you at the Floridita for a drink - 5 o'clock. And that's how I met Hemingway. And we did have several Papa Dobles, which is a drink that was invented for him. It's a - really a froze"}
{"id": "806991677", "date": "2020-02-18", "guest": "A E Hotchner", "title": "Remembering Ernest Hemingway Biographer A. E. Hotchner", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'll to you what he was doing - in the case of \"Across The River,\" for example, he was about to take off with Mary, his wife. He was going to Paris. Then he was going to go over to Venice, and he was "}
{"id": "806991677", "date": "2020-02-18", "guest": "A E Hotchner", "title": "Remembering Ernest Hemingway Biographer A. E. Hotchner", "question_index": 11, "text": "That's great. Now, you did several TV adaptations of his work for CBS.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I went back. And I said, here it all is, but we don't have the last two chapters. But how could we be in publication? You stick with him until you get the two chapters. So I went back to The Sherry"}
{"id": "806991677", "date": "2020-02-18", "guest": "A E Hotchner", "title": "Remembering Ernest Hemingway Biographer A. E. Hotchner", "question_index": 12, "text": "Now, Buick, I understand, wanted you to write happy endings to \"A Farewell To Arms\" and \"The Sun Also Rises\" and \"To Have And Have Not.\" What was your reaction? I think they offered you a free car for the", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For \"Playhouse 90,\" yes."}
{"id": "806991677", "date": "2020-02-18", "guest": "A E Hotchner", "title": "Remembering Ernest Hemingway Biographer A. E. Hotchner", "question_index": 13, "text": "- happy endings.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For \"Playhouse 90,\" yes."}
{"id": "806991677", "date": "2020-02-18", "guest": "A E Hotchner", "title": "Remembering Ernest Hemingway Biographer A. E. Hotchner", "question_index": 14, "text": "I feel good again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, they offered me -- that's right. They said, you know, are you interested in ratings? Because it's a series. And if people feel that they have these down endings, they won't come back for the nex"}
{"id": "806991677", "date": "2020-02-18", "guest": "A E Hotchner", "title": "Remembering Ernest Hemingway Biographer A. E. Hotchner", "question_index": 15, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "806991677", "date": "2020-02-18", "guest": "A E Hotchner", "title": "Remembering Ernest Hemingway Biographer A. E. Hotchner", "question_index": 16, "text": "Papa", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And the screaming little Catherine Jr. come..."}
{"id": "806991677", "date": "2020-02-18", "guest": "A E Hotchner", "title": "Remembering Ernest Hemingway Biographer A. E. Hotchner", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And the screaming little Catherine Jr. come..."}
{"id": "806991677", "date": "2020-02-18", "guest": "A E Hotchner", "title": "Remembering Ernest Hemingway Biographer A. E. Hotchner", "question_index": 18, "text": "So - but they didn't fire you after that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Galloping out of her womb. So I simply laughed them off of that. I can see the Jake Barnes at the end. Suddenly, there sprouts this heretofore not present penis, and we are in business."}
{"id": "806991677", "date": "2020-02-18", "guest": "A E Hotchner", "title": "Remembering Ernest Hemingway Biographer A. E. Hotchner", "question_index": 19, "text": "Good cast.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, they didn't fire me. No, they couldn't because they had signed me to a contract. That was a big mistake. But the funniest thing that happened was when we did \"For Whom The Bell Tolls\" with Jason R"}
{"id": "806991677", "date": "2020-02-18", "guest": "A E Hotchner", "title": "Remembering Ernest Hemingway Biographer A. E. Hotchner", "question_index": 20, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Good cast. It was in two parts. We were driving - Ernest and Mary and myself; I was the driver - from Ketchum to Key West. And when we were going across the Texas plains somewhere, Ernest said, this i"}
{"id": "806991677", "date": "2020-02-18", "guest": "A E Hotchner", "title": "Remembering Ernest Hemingway Biographer A. E. Hotchner", "question_index": 21, "text": "Jealous?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Any track. So he stopped at some flea-bitten little motel and went into the lobby and said to the innkeeper, who nearly fainted when he saw who it was - he said, listen, I have something want to se"}
{"id": "806991677", "date": "2020-02-18", "guest": "A E Hotchner", "title": "Remembering Ernest Hemingway Biographer A. E. Hotchner", "question_index": 22, "text": "We're listening to my 1999 interview with writer A.E. Hotchner, who died Saturday at the age of 102. We'll hear more after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, that was - that was a real warfare there."}
{"id": "806991677", "date": "2020-02-18", "guest": "A E Hotchner", "title": "Remembering Ernest Hemingway Biographer A. E. Hotchner", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with writer A.E. Hotchner, which was first broadcast in 1999 on the centennial of Ernest Hemingway's birth. A new edition of Hotchner's memoir \"Papa Hemingway\" about his friendship with Hemingway had just been published. Hotchner died Saturday at the age of 102.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, that was - that was a real warfare there."}
{"id": "806991677", "date": "2020-02-18", "guest": "A E Hotchner", "title": "Remembering Ernest Hemingway Biographer A. E. Hotchner", "question_index": 24, "text": "You have been a very careful Hemingway reader. You loved Hemingway's writing long before you met him, and then you had to reread him very carefully because you were adapting his work. I asked you to just choose a few lines of Hemingway's writing that you think are very Hemingway", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, that was - that was a real warfare there."}
{"id": "806991677", "date": "2020-02-18", "guest": "A E Hotchner", "title": "Remembering Ernest Hemingway Biographer A. E. Hotchner", "question_index": 25, "text": "and talk about what they reveal about Hemingway's style. What do you want to read for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, that was - that was a real warfare there."}
{"id": "806991677", "date": "2020-02-18", "guest": "A E Hotchner", "title": "Remembering Ernest Hemingway Biographer A. E. Hotchner", "question_index": 26, "text": "Now, what's quintessential Hemingway about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm going to read the very opening of \"A Farewell To Arms.\" This is as much Hemingway's style as anything of Hemingway's. (Reading) In the late summer of that year, we lived in a house in a village th"}
{"id": "806991677", "date": "2020-02-18", "guest": "A E Hotchner", "title": "Remembering Ernest Hemingway Biographer A. E. Hotchner", "question_index": 27, "text": "Hemingway had a lot of interesting things to say about writing. I thought I'd read one of those things. And this is from his posthumously published book \"A Moveable Feast,\" which you gave the title to. And this is about trying to write in the '20s when he's in Paris, and he says, I would stand and look out over the roofs of Paris and think, do not worry. You have always written before, and you will write now. All you have to do is write one true sentence. Write the truest sentence that you know. So finally, I would write one true sentence and then go on from there. It was easy then because there was always one true sentence that I knew or had seen or had heard someone say. If I started to write elaborately or like someone introducing or presenting something, I found that I could cut that scrollwork or ornament out and throw it away and start with the first true, simple, declarative sentence I had written. I like the idea of throwing away the ornamentation and realizing when he was sounding too presentational. Did you get a sense of that ever from observing him write or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Notice the simplicity of the language that's used and the almost poetic repetition. It's almost as if it's poetry. You could scan that, I'll bet, and you would find that it has a scan to it. But the r"}
{"id": "806991677", "date": "2020-02-18", "guest": "A E Hotchner", "title": "Remembering Ernest Hemingway Biographer A. E. Hotchner", "question_index": 28, "text": "...Hearing him talk about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He told me..."}
{"id": "806991677", "date": "2020-02-18", "guest": "A E Hotchner", "title": "Remembering Ernest Hemingway Biographer A. E. Hotchner", "question_index": 29, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...That he really picked up on that business of editing out from Gertrude Stein because he had had an introduction to her in her salon from - Sherwin Anderson had given a letter introduction. And he h"}
{"id": "806991677", "date": "2020-02-18", "guest": "A E Hotchner", "title": "Remembering Ernest Hemingway Biographer A. E. Hotchner", "question_index": 30, "text": "Your memoir is called \"Papa Hemingway.\" Did you call him Papa?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I picked verys. And he said - and it strengthened it a lot."}
{"id": "806991677", "date": "2020-02-18", "guest": "A E Hotchner", "title": "Remembering Ernest Hemingway Biographer A. E. Hotchner", "question_index": 31, "text": "How did that feel?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I call him Papa."}
{"id": "806991677", "date": "2020-02-18", "guest": "A E Hotchner", "title": "Remembering Ernest Hemingway Biographer A. E. Hotchner", "question_index": 32, "text": "Well, thank you so much for talking with us. It's really been a pleasure to hear you speak. Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I didn't for a while, but he called himself Papa. He would sign his letters Papa. And he began calling himself Papa, you know, when he was a young man. It was not something - so I didn't have mu"}
{"id": "806991677", "date": "2020-02-18", "guest": "A E Hotchner", "title": "Remembering Ernest Hemingway Biographer A. E. Hotchner", "question_index": 33, "text": "My interview with A.E. Hotchner was originally broadcast on July 21, 1999, the centennial of Hemingway's birth. Hotchner died Saturday. He was 102. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll talk about Deutsche Bank, the German bank that kept lending money to Donald Trump when the rest of Wall Street had turned its back on him. Our guest will be journalist David Enrich, financial editor for The New York Times and author of the new book \"Dark Towers: Deutsche Bank, Donald Trump, And An Epic Trail Of Destruction.\" It chronicles how the 150-year-old bank went from a respected institution to a company engaged in money laundering, manipulating markets, violating international sanctions, defrauding regulators and more. I hope you can join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "806991677", "date": "2020-02-18", "guest": "A E Hotchner", "title": "Remembering Ernest Hemingway Biographer A. E. Hotchner", "question_index": 34, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Thea Chaloner, Mooj Zadie and Seth Kelley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "807799177", "date": "2020-02-21", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 0, "text": "Bridgett Davis, welcome to FRESH AIR. I want to start by asking you to describe the numbers at the time your mother started working as a numbers runner.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, editor of the website TV Worth Watching, sitting in for Terry Gross. Before states ran legal lotteries, there was the underground street version - the numbers. "}
{"id": "807799177", "date": "2020-02-21", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 1, "text": "Explain how that worked in the underground economy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The numbers were, first of all, illegal. They were a precursor to the legal lottery that we all know about today. So when my mom launched her business in 1958, she was stepping into an already thrivin"}
{"id": "807799177", "date": "2020-02-21", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 2, "text": "And how are the winning numbers decided?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It really was just a matter of making sure the authorities didn't find out but really circulating those dollars in the community over and over again. So you might go to someone's home, and you would g"}
{"id": "807799177", "date": "2020-02-21", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", and then I forgot it because it is complicated."}
{"id": "807799177", "date": "2020-02-21", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 4, "text": "So if it was hard - so hard to figure out what the winning number was, how was the winning number circulated? How did people know that their number had hit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It has something to do with, you know, taking the numbers that are to the left of the decimal point once you figure out the calculations based on all these various races. It was something. I love tell"}
{"id": "807799177", "date": "2020-02-21", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 5, "text": "That requires a level of trust", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The big numbers bosses employed people who helped with those calculations. Once the numbers bosses signed off on the daily winners, then the word went out - almost like a game of telephone, except the"}
{"id": "807799177", "date": "2020-02-21", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The big numbers bosses employed people who helped with those calculations. Once the numbers bosses signed off on the daily winners, then the word went out - almost like a game of telephone, except the"}
{"id": "807799177", "date": "2020-02-21", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 7, "text": "When your mother started in the numbers, she had a banker, Eddie Wingate, who was a major figure in the Detroit numbers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It absolutely does. It absolutely does."}
{"id": "807799177", "date": "2020-02-21", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 8, "text": "So describe what it meant to have a banker when you were running the numbers, and tell us a little bit about Eddie Wingate.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "807799177", "date": "2020-02-21", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 9, "text": "So your mother got along with Eddie Wingate when she was - he was banking numbers for her.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But he was also an extraordinary businessman. He owned a lot of businesses in Detroit. And what's really exciting is that he actually launched a record company that competed with Berry Gordy's Motow"}
{"id": "807799177", "date": "2020-02-21", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 10, "text": "But she decided eventually to bank the numbers herself. So what did that mean in terms of your mother being a kind of underground entrepreneur?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "807799177", "date": "2020-02-21", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 11, "text": "What new responsibilities did she take on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "807799177", "date": "2020-02-21", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 12, "text": "Describe the point of view you had as a child when you're, say, like, 7 or 8, watching your mother collect all this money, do all the math, keep track of what the winning number was, count her cash 'cause you say you have this indelible image burned in your mind of your mother sitting there counting cash.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wow. It was a big responsibility. It was a big risk because when she worked for Eddie Wingate, it was as though she got a salary. He gave her a percentage of all the proceeds, all the business that sh"}
{"id": "807799177", "date": "2020-02-21", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 13, "text": "So what did this all look like to you as a child?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "807799177", "date": "2020-02-21", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 14, "text": "It was also anxiety-provoking, though, wasn't it? Because you must have known, even at a young age, that there was a lot of risk involved with this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was my normal. I really had no other reference. I knew that other mothers weren't like my mom, but it was simply her job. It was what she did."}
{"id": "807799177", "date": "2020-02-21", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 15, "text": "I know the phone must have been ringing all the time at your home, but what about house calls? Did people come to put money on their number?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", and that's when the number was about to be announced. The anticipation of what each day's number was going to be brought a lot of anxiety because once we all knew that number, things could go either"}
{"id": "807799177", "date": "2020-02-21", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 16, "text": "So how would your mother collect the money from them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Some people - some of her older reliable customers, whom she'd been working with for many years, they preferred to come by the house because it was sort of a social interaction. It was communal. "}
{"id": "807799177", "date": "2020-02-21", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 17, "text": "We should take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Bridgett Davis, author of the new memoir \"The World According To Fannie Davis: My Mother's Life In The Detroit Numbers.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "because my mom let them play on credit. She let them play all week. And then at the end of the week, she collected her money from them. My stepfather or some young man that she hired that she trusted "}
{"id": "807799177", "date": "2020-02-21", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is writer and professor Bridgett Davis. Her new memoir is called \"The World According To Fannie Davis\" and is about her mother, who ran the numbers in Detroit. She had her own numbers business, which is - if you're not familiar with the numbers, it's a kind of underground version of a lottery that existed long before the lottery was legal. Dreams played a big role in the numbers. You could dream a number and consider that your lucky number and place a bet on that, or you could look up your dream in the dream book. And I'd like you to explain what the dream book is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "because my mom let them play on credit. She let them play all week. And then at the end of the week, she collected her money from them. My stepfather or some young man that she hired that she trusted "}
{"id": "807799177", "date": "2020-02-21", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 19, "text": "So did you or your mother rely on the dream book to play numbers, and did you and your mother actually play numbers even though your mother was a numbers runner?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the dream book is like a bible to those who play and run numbers. You go into anyone's home who's familiar with and involved in the numbers, and you'll see those dream books. My mom had two in part"}
{"id": "807799177", "date": "2020-02-21", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 20, "text": "Winning the numbers was a risky business, too. What were the risks that your family took because your mother ran the numbers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So that's a great question because I did not have much interest at all in playing the numbers, but my mother was definitely a player. She both ran the numbers - you know, she was a bookie and a banker"}
{"id": "807799177", "date": "2020-02-21", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 21, "text": "There was another risk you didn't mention, and that's of being robbed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The biggest risk of all was actually getting caught, actually having authorities bust your business. So that was always looming, but it wasn't made apparent. By that, I mean we just knew to keep it a "}
{"id": "807799177", "date": "2020-02-21", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 22, "text": "You describe a whole infrastructure of black businesses created from the profits of running the numbers. So can you tell us about that?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with Terry's 2019 interview with Bridgett Davis. Her book, \"The World According To Fannie Davis: My Mother's Life In The Detroit Number"}
{"id": "807799177", "date": "2020-02-21", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 23, "text": "Detroit started to crack down on the numbers. And there's this big raid on the Hotel Gotham, which was a black-owned hotel...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Back when the numbers were really thriving in Detroit in the '30s, '40s, '50s, even before my mom got involved, we forget how segregated this country was. And even in the North, black folks couldn't j"}
{"id": "807799177", "date": "2020-02-21", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 24, "text": "...That had, like, at least one room on each floor for numbers runners.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "807799177", "date": "2020-02-21", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 25, "text": "What did that raid - a lot of people were arrested. What did that raid mean to your mother, who was trying to, you know, stay out of sight?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "807799177", "date": "2020-02-21", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 26, "text": "Detroit was a tough place in the '60s. In 1967 - that was the year of the Detroit uprising or the Detroit riots, depending on the language that you use...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. I had no idea that that had happened. I mean, I was very young at the time that it happened. But I never heard her tell stories about it. So I could only imagine what that did for her or to her"}
{"id": "807799177", "date": "2020-02-21", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 27, "text": "...After an unlicensed, after-hours bar was busted by the police and everyone inside was arrested. I think it was around 100 people. A lot of people gathered around and observed how the police were treating these people, which wasn't well. And that led to, again, an uprising or a riot, depending on who's describing it. And there's a lot of burning and looting, confrontations with the police. Governor George Romney, Mitt's father, called in the National Guard. You saw tanks rolling down your street.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "807799177", "date": "2020-02-21", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 28, "text": "What were those five days like for you? Describe your neighborhood then and what those five days were like.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "807799177", "date": "2020-02-21", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 29, "text": "For five days?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I still remember it even though I was 7. We lived in a lovely neighborhood, a lovely northwest community called Russell Woods. And there was a park nearby. And rumors spread that Russell Woods Par"}
{"id": "807799177", "date": "2020-02-21", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 30, "text": "How old were you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, no one wanted to be walking through the house and be vulnerable to a bullet going through a window. It was so eerie. And what I also remember is that you would think it would be boisterous and lo"}
{"id": "807799177", "date": "2020-02-21", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 31, "text": "You write you developed a paralyzing fear of going outside after that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And frightening. I was 7."}
{"id": "807799177", "date": "2020-02-21", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 32, "text": "How did that affect your opinion of burning and looting as a response to injustice or police violence?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I developed such a fear. And I sort of - I focused it around my father. I just was convinced that something was going to harm him out there in the world. And I started, like, grabbing onto his leg and"}
{"id": "807799177", "date": "2020-02-21", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 33, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Bridgett Davis. Her new book is a memoir about growing up in Detroit, where her mother ran the numbers and had a very successful business as a numbers runner and banker. And the memoir is called \"The World According To Fannie Davis\" - Fannie Davis being Bridgett's mother. We'll be right back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It saddens me because, of course, it always ends up destroying our own communities, and yet I completely understand it; it's just unbelievable, pent-up frustration. And to be clear, not all of these c"}
{"id": "807799177", "date": "2020-02-21", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 34, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is writer and writing professor Bridgett Davis. Her new book is called \"The World According To Fannie Davis.\" It's a memoir about her mother, who was a numbers runner in Detroit in the 1960s. In 1972, Detroit legalized the state lottery. How did the original legal lottery compare with the numbers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It saddens me because, of course, it always ends up destroying our own communities, and yet I completely understand it; it's just unbelievable, pent-up frustration. And to be clear, not all of these c"}
{"id": "807799177", "date": "2020-02-21", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 35, "text": "And that changed in 1977 when it became a daily lottery?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Originally, the legal lottery was not direct competition with the numbers. It was different. It was a weekly drawing. It was more like a sweepstakes. If you bought a ticket, you did not get to choose "}
{"id": "807799177", "date": "2020-02-21", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 36, "text": "How did your mother manage to stay afloat while competing with the official daily lottery?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ah, then it all changed in 1977. And I am convinced that the Michigan State Lottery Commission finally got around to their goal, which was to be in direct competition with the numbers. It just took fi"}
{"id": "807799177", "date": "2020-02-21", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 37, "text": "What was left of your mother's business when she died of cancer? And what year was that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Somehow she landed on this idea that you can't - if you can't beat them, join them. So she decided what she would do is she would use the daily winning numbers that the lottery provided as the winning"}
{"id": "807799177", "date": "2020-02-21", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 38, "text": "Your mother had five children and lost three of them in the 1980s. Your 33-year-old brother was shooting pool at a neighborhood bar. He got into an argument. He saw the guy had a gun, and when your brother ran out, he was shot in the back and killed. Your 37-year-old sister, Dianne, was shot and killed by her husband in a murder-suicide after she told him she wanted a divorce. And your 35-year-old sister had a heart attack and died. That's a lot of tragedy to survive in one decade. How did you handle that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mother died of cancer in 1992. And at the point she died, my sister, Rita, had taken over the business and had taken in her customers and had begun to run the business, which she was quite capable "}
{"id": "807799177", "date": "2020-02-21", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 39, "text": "One of the things I love about your book is seeing how your family's history connects to the larger history of African Americans and, you know, the larger story of the Great Migration because your parents migrated from Jim Crow Tennessee to Detroit in the 1950s. Your mother's grandparents were slaves.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. That's the completely honest answer. I do not know. I just remember feeling as though I could not add more of a burden to my mother, that the last thing I wanted to do was give her somet"}
{"id": "807799177", "date": "2020-02-21", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 40, "text": "And so, you know, the fact that your mother worked in the illegal economy, the underground economy - when your grandparents are slaves...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "807799177", "date": "2020-02-21", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 41, "text": "...The fact that you're able to make a living at all is kind of amazing. You know, the history of slavery in America - it's the undercurrent of so much in American history. Like, you can't understand American history without understanding that so many black people in America are the descendants of slaves.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "807799177", "date": "2020-02-21", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 42, "text": "And I feel like, although you don't spend a lot of time on that in the book, that it's just kind of, like, the subtext of a lot of the book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "807799177", "date": "2020-02-21", "guest": "Bridgett Davis", "title": "Daughter Of A Numbers Runner Witnessed An Underground Economy In Action", "question_index": 43, "text": "Well, I want to thank you for writing the book. It's a great book. And I want to thank you for our conversation. I really enjoyed talking with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. You know, there are a couple of things I really have thought a lot about around this whole idea of slavery and how it connects to both my mom's story and also the numbers, right? So first, wi"}
{"id": "808843704", "date": "2020-02-24", "guest": "Adam Cohen", "title": "'Supreme Inequality' Argues That America's Top Court Has Become Right-Wing", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. A new book examines the conservative direction the Supreme Court has headed in over the past 50 years, ever since Nixon became president. The author, my guest Adam Cohen, writes, for five decades, the court has, with striking regularity, sided with the rich and powerful against the poor and weak in virtually every area of the law. He says, in campaign finance law, the court has opened the floodgates to money from wealthy individuals and corporations. In election law, it's upheld rules and practices that make it more difficult for the poor and racial minorities to vote. In criminal law, it's favored prosecutors so consistently that it's contributed significantly to the nation's mass incarceration crisis. And on a wide variety of issues, the court has ruled against the poor. Cohen's new book is called \"Supreme Inequality.\" His previous book, \"Imbeciles,\" was about the 1927 Supreme Court decision bound up in the eugenics movement that upheld a state's right to sterilize people deemed unfit to procreate because they were, quote, \"mentally deficient.\" Adam Cohen is a former public interest lawyer who worked with the ACLU and the Southern Poverty Law Center. He served as a member of The New York Times editorial board and as senior writer for Time magazine. Adam Cohen, welcome back to FRESH AIR. As you point out, your book paints a different picture of the Supreme Court than the one presented in civics class. Compare the two pictures.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "808843704", "date": "2020-02-24", "guest": "Adam Cohen", "title": "'Supreme Inequality' Argues That America's Top Court Has Become Right-Wing", "question_index": 1, "text": "You know, we've seen how politicized the Supreme Court has become, with it being pretty predictable what liberals will vote for on the court and what the conservatives will vote for on the court, and the team with the most people on it tends to win. Occasionally, there's swing votes and surprises, but is that a fair characterization in terms of the big decisions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. I think, you know, a lot of us were raised to believe that the Supreme Court was the defender of the disadvantaged. We think of cases like Brown v. Board of Education; the Supreme Court integrat"}
{"id": "808843704", "date": "2020-02-24", "guest": "Adam Cohen", "title": "'Supreme Inequality' Argues That America's Top Court Has Become Right-Wing", "question_index": 2, "text": "Do you think that politicization is baked into the Supreme Court because the justices are appointed by the president and the president often has, you know, political motives?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. But, you know, it's really important to realize how counter that is to the traditional narrative, right? I mean, we're told that the Supreme Court is in the law business, not the politics "}
{"id": "808843704", "date": "2020-02-24", "guest": "Adam Cohen", "title": "'Supreme Inequality' Argues That America's Top Court Has Become Right-Wing", "question_index": 3, "text": "You trace the origins of the current conservative court to 1969, when Nixon became president. He inherited a very liberal court with Chief Justice Earl Warren. So let's start with some of the liberal decisions under Chief Justice Warren.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. There is that element of it, but it's definitely gotten a lot worse. Like, if you go back to the Eisenhower era, Eisenhower appointed Earl Warren, who was the great liberal chief justice, and he"}
{"id": "808843704", "date": "2020-02-24", "guest": "Adam Cohen", "title": "'Supreme Inequality' Argues That America's Top Court Has Become Right-Wing", "question_index": 4, "text": "Do you think that the Warren court, the liberal Warren court, was a historic anomaly?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Within a year of Earl Warren arriving at the court - he had been the governor of California - the court hands down Brown v. Board of Education 9 to nothing - just an enormous landmark that chang"}
{"id": "808843704", "date": "2020-02-24", "guest": "Adam Cohen", "title": "'Supreme Inequality' Argues That America's Top Court Has Become Right-Wing", "question_index": 5, "text": "Chief Justice Warren told President Johnson, LBJ, that he intended to resign, and he wanted to resign soon enough so that Johnson could appoint a new chief justice in the spirit of Earl Warren before Nixon was elected 'cause apparently, Warren thought there was a really good chance that Nixon was going to be elected, and he was right about that. But that backfired. LBJ nominated Justice Abe Fortas to be this - the chief justice, and he didn't win Senate confirmation. What happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. You know, if you look at the long sweep of the court, you know, before the Civil War and after the Civil War, they defended racial segregation. You know, Dred Scott - they said that a blac"}
{"id": "808843704", "date": "2020-02-24", "guest": "Adam Cohen", "title": "'Supreme Inequality' Argues That America's Top Court Has Become Right-Wing", "question_index": 6, "text": "And Nixon appointed Warren Burger to be chief justice. What was Burger's judicial philosophy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It was one of the great fumbles in Supreme Court history and really unexpected in many ways because Johnson had been, you know, the master of the Senate, the famed majority leader who understood"}
{"id": "808843704", "date": "2020-02-24", "guest": "Adam Cohen", "title": "'Supreme Inequality' Argues That America's Top Court Has Become Right-Wing", "question_index": 7, "text": "Nixon also wanted Abe Fortas out 'cause although Abe Fortas didn't become chief justice, he was still a justice in the Supreme Court. So what did Nixon do to force out Fortas?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Burger had been ingratiating himself to Nixon by saying how much he didn't like the Warren Court and also didn't like the liberals on his court, the D.C. Circuit Court that he was serving on - t"}
{"id": "808843704", "date": "2020-02-24", "guest": "Adam Cohen", "title": "'Supreme Inequality' Argues That America's Top Court Has Become Right-Wing", "question_index": 8, "text": "Who did Nixon replace Fortas with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Nixon comes in. And he gets that chief justice appointment - very exciting. And there have not been that many chief justices in history, so that's a big deal to be able to appoint one right away. B"}
{"id": "808843704", "date": "2020-02-24", "guest": "Adam Cohen", "title": "'Supreme Inequality' Argues That America's Top Court Has Become Right-Wing", "question_index": 9, "text": "So by the time Nixon was forced out of office, how had he changed the court?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, a close friend of Burger's, Harry Blackmun, who we may remember now - towards the end of his life, he was quite liberal. He wrote Roe v. Wade. But for quite a few years in the beginning, he "}
{"id": "808843704", "date": "2020-02-24", "guest": "Adam Cohen", "title": "'Supreme Inequality' Argues That America's Top Court Has Become Right-Wing", "question_index": 10, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Adam Cohen, and he's the author of the new book \"Supreme Inequality: The Supreme Court's Fifty-Year Battle For A More Unjust America.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, incredibly profoundly because he then got two more appointments, Lewis Powell and William Rehnquist, who was an obscure lawyer in the Justice Department - very right-wing. So he had appointed fo"}
{"id": "808843704", "date": "2020-02-24", "guest": "Adam Cohen", "title": "'Supreme Inequality' Argues That America's Top Court Has Become Right-Wing", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Adam Cohen. He's a lawyer, and a journalist and author of the new book \"Supreme Inequality: The Supreme Court's Fifty-Year Battle For A More Unjust America.\" It's about how the Supreme Court has grown more conservative, often ruling against the poor, against workers' rights, against voting rights while favoring corporations and the wealthy, overall contributing to income inequality. You write that in the five decades since the Nixon presidency, there have only been three Supreme Court chief justices, and they've all been conservative - Burger, Rehnquist and Roberts.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, incredibly profoundly because he then got two more appointments, Lewis Powell and William Rehnquist, who was an obscure lawyer in the Justice Department - very right-wing. So he had appointed fo"}
{"id": "808843704", "date": "2020-02-24", "guest": "Adam Cohen", "title": "'Supreme Inequality' Argues That America's Top Court Has Become Right-Wing", "question_index": 12, "text": "So do you think that's kind of coincidence that justices tend to leave or die during Republican presidencies? Or do you think that Republicans are better at getting Supreme Court justices appointed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And they've had a conservative majority behind them the whole time. And that's really stunning - right? - because if you think about going back to 1970, we've had so many changes in the White Hou"}
{"id": "808843704", "date": "2020-02-24", "guest": "Adam Cohen", "title": "'Supreme Inequality' Argues That America's Top Court Has Become Right-Wing", "question_index": 13, "text": "There's something about the process of nominating and confirming Supreme Court justices that seems to have changed. You know, you mentioned the - McConnell blocking the Merrick Garland nomination. But, you know, Trump named his potential justices during the campaign. That's kind of unheard of, isn't it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they game the whole system much better than Democrats do, in many ways. So one way is that they do tend to step down in strategic ways that Democrats often don't. So Anthony Kennedy stepped down"}
{"id": "808843704", "date": "2020-02-24", "guest": "Adam Cohen", "title": "'Supreme Inequality' Argues That America's Top Court Has Become Right-Wing", "question_index": 14, "text": "It used to be there was not supposed to be a litmus test for a Supreme Court justice. But now both Democrats and Republicans seem to be boldly mentioning", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's gotten much more political. And just the way in which Trump is saying, you know, we're putting together this list, and we're consulting with the Federalist Society - and, you know, I think it's p"}
{"id": "808843704", "date": "2020-02-24", "guest": "Adam Cohen", "title": "'Supreme Inequality' Argues That America's Top Court Has Become Right-Wing", "question_index": 15, "text": "their support of a litmus test. I mean, some Democratic candidates have said that, yeah, they would choose, you know, a Supreme Court justice who supports abortion rights, that that would be essential. So I think that's something that's changed, too - that, you know, intentionally stating to the public, yes, this judge is coming in with, you know, certain points of view in advance.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's gotten much more political. And just the way in which Trump is saying, you know, we're putting together this list, and we're consulting with the Federalist Society - and, you know, I think it's p"}
{"id": "808843704", "date": "2020-02-24", "guest": "Adam Cohen", "title": "'Supreme Inequality' Argues That America's Top Court Has Become Right-Wing", "question_index": 16, "text": "You write that the area in which the Supreme Court has changed the most is in the area of economic class. Give us an example of that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that's right. The mask has fallen off, right? And everyone can see what's really going on. You know, in theory, if the court is the sort of legal body we like to pretend it is, what president "}
{"id": "808843704", "date": "2020-02-24", "guest": "Adam Cohen", "title": "'Supreme Inequality' Argues That America's Top Court Has Become Right-Wing", "question_index": 17, "text": "Talk about the controversy over whether the Equal Protection Clause of the 14th Amendment should include poor people as a group with special protected status.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. During the Warren court, which we were talking about, the court really embraced poor people and their problems. So we began to see them being very active around issues like the poll tax but also"}
{"id": "808843704", "date": "2020-02-24", "guest": "Adam Cohen", "title": "'Supreme Inequality' Argues That America's Top Court Has Become Right-Wing", "question_index": 18, "text": "So if the court had ruled differently and said poor people were a protected class, how might that have changed things?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. This is one of the most fascinating things that was going on during the Warren era. So there is this notion of suspect class - is there are certain classes that, the court says, have a higher st"}
{"id": "808843704", "date": "2020-02-24", "guest": "Adam Cohen", "title": "'Supreme Inequality' Argues That America's Top Court Has Become Right-Wing", "question_index": 19, "text": "My guest is Adam Cohen, author of the new book \"Supreme Inequality.\" After a break, we'll talk about the ways in which he says the Supreme Court has given the advantage to the wealthy. And jazz critic Kevin Whitehead will review a new album by the Carla Bley Trio. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The poor would have then been given a very powerful legal tool to use in a lot of different contexts to challenge a lot of ways in which they're harmed. So right now we have very unequal distribution "}
{"id": "808843704", "date": "2020-02-24", "guest": "Adam Cohen", "title": "'Supreme Inequality' Argues That America's Top Court Has Become Right-Wing", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with lawyer and journalist Adam Cohen about his new book \"Supreme Inequality.\" It examines the conservative direction the Supreme Court has headed in over the past 50 years, ever since Nixon became president. He writes that for five decades, the court has, with striking regularity, sided with the rich and powerful against the poor and weak in virtually every area of the law. Cohen is a former public interest lawyer who worked with the ACLU and the Southern Poverty Law Center. He served as a member of The New York Times editorial board and a senior writer for Time magazine. There's another case I'd like you to talk about pertaining to school equality over the question of whether schools in poor neighborhoods should get the same amount of funding as schools in wealthy neighborhoods, and we're talking about public schools. Tell us about that case.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The poor would have then been given a very powerful legal tool to use in a lot of different contexts to challenge a lot of ways in which they're harmed. So right now we have very unequal distribution "}
{"id": "808843704", "date": "2020-02-24", "guest": "Adam Cohen", "title": "'Supreme Inequality' Argues That America's Top Court Has Become Right-Wing", "question_index": 21, "text": "Yeah, tell us more about the potential of that decision to have changed the public schools in America.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Rodriguez v. San Antonio Independent School board from 1973, one of the, really, most tragic cases, I think, in the Supreme Court's history. The context of it is that there had been a lot of mom"}
{"id": "808843704", "date": "2020-02-24", "guest": "Adam Cohen", "title": "'Supreme Inequality' Argues That America's Top Court Has Become Right-Wing", "question_index": 22, "text": "So you've given us a couple of examples of how the Supreme Court in the '70s disadvantaged poor people. Give us an example of how the Supreme Court in the past few decades has given the advantage to the wealthy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I know this quite well because I was a lawyer in this very area of equal educational opportunity at the - when I was at the ACLU, and I worked on a big case at Alabama about it. It's sho"}
{"id": "808843704", "date": "2020-02-24", "guest": "Adam Cohen", "title": "'Supreme Inequality' Argues That America's Top Court Has Become Right-Wing", "question_index": 23, "text": "We're in an interesting position now in terms of the Democratic primary in the sense that Michael Bloomberg is both the candidate and the funder of his campaign because he's funding it out of his own money. What does the court have to say about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the one we have to start with, of course, is campaign finance because it's so important. Until 1976, we didn't have this idea that money equaled speech. And in the wake of Watergate, Congress ac"}
{"id": "808843704", "date": "2020-02-24", "guest": "Adam Cohen", "title": "'Supreme Inequality' Argues That America's Top Court Has Become Right-Wing", "question_index": 24, "text": "While we're on the subject of campaigns, talk about how the court has dealt with voting rights in recent years.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They allow that, right? There's no limits allowed on expenditures, so he can spend as much as he wants. But imagine if the court had gone a different way in 1976 in this decision called Buckley v. Val"}
{"id": "808843704", "date": "2020-02-24", "guest": "Adam Cohen", "title": "'Supreme Inequality' Argues That America's Top Court Has Become Right-Wing", "question_index": 25, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Adam Cohen, author of the new book \"Supreme Inequality: The Supreme Court's Fifty-Year Battle For A More Unjust America.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, it's really been, I would say, a horror. You know, one of the most awful things they did was strike down a key part of the Voting Rights Act. And remember - the Voting Rights Act is a la"}
{"id": "808843704", "date": "2020-02-24", "guest": "Adam Cohen", "title": "'Supreme Inequality' Argues That America's Top Court Has Become Right-Wing", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Adam Cohen. He's a lawyer and a journalist and author of the new book \"Supreme Inequality: The Supreme Court's Fifty-Year Battle For A More Unjust America.\" And it's about how the Supreme Court became more conservative in the Nixon era and got increasingly so and, in many instances, ruling against the poor, against workers rights, voting rights, while favoring corporations and the wealthy. You know, your book is about how politicized the court has become, particularly in the past 50 years, since the Nixon administration. And, you know, you can argue, well, of course, the court is politicized because they're all appointees of the president, who's, you know, a political person himself and could have a political agenda in choosing a justice. Are there any ideas on the table for making the court less politicized?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, it's really been, I would say, a horror. You know, one of the most awful things they did was strike down a key part of the Voting Rights Act. And remember - the Voting Rights Act is a la"}
{"id": "808843704", "date": "2020-02-24", "guest": "Adam Cohen", "title": "'Supreme Inequality' Argues That America's Top Court Has Become Right-Wing", "question_index": 27, "text": "Yeah, if a president appoints a young justice, that means that the president's choice is going to be there for perhaps decades.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There are a number of them. Some of them relate to the size of the court, right? I mean, it's not required that there be nine justices. It could be a larger number. And that might get us out of the cu"}
{"id": "808843704", "date": "2020-02-24", "guest": "Adam Cohen", "title": "'Supreme Inequality' Argues That America's Top Court Has Become Right-Wing", "question_index": 28, "text": "Before you became a journalist and an author, you were a public interest lawyer. You worked with the ACLU. You worked with the Southern Poverty Law Center. You worked in New York and Alabama. What kinds of cases did you take on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And we talked about - earlier about the way in which Republicans have maybe been better at gaming the Supreme Court system than Democrats, and one thing is that they have nominated much younger j"}
{"id": "808843704", "date": "2020-02-24", "guest": "Adam Cohen", "title": "'Supreme Inequality' Argues That America's Top Court Has Become Right-Wing", "question_index": 29, "text": "What's an example of one of your biggest victories or defeats from the period when you were a lawyer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I worked in Alabama at the Southern Poverty Law Center, I did a big jail conditions case. Jails down there were pretty terrible. And I also worked on a case where we were suing the Ku Klux Klan. "}
{"id": "808843704", "date": "2020-02-24", "guest": "Adam Cohen", "title": "'Supreme Inequality' Argues That America's Top Court Has Become Right-Wing", "question_index": 30, "text": "So when you became a public interest lawyer, did you see the courts as a good way to fight for civil rights for, you know, income equality, for social change, for better education?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I spent the most time on a school case in Alabama where we were trying to equalize funding between rich and poor school districts. And in particular, we represented parents and school children f"}
{"id": "808843704", "date": "2020-02-24", "guest": "Adam Cohen", "title": "'Supreme Inequality' Argues That America's Top Court Has Become Right-Wing", "question_index": 31, "text": "Why did you leave the law?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, all of those things. I grew up in the Warren era, and to me, that was what the Supreme Court did. Both of my parents were lawyers and judges. My grandmother had been a lawyer. And I did think of "}
{"id": "808843704", "date": "2020-02-24", "guest": "Adam Cohen", "title": "'Supreme Inequality' Argues That America's Top Court Has Become Right-Wing", "question_index": 32, "text": "So in which place do you feel like you've had the most impact - as a public interest lawyer or as a journalist?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, for a number of reasons, but a big part of it was that cases like the Alabama case were not winning, and it seemed that it was not the force for social change that, you know, it had on"}
{"id": "808843704", "date": "2020-02-24", "guest": "Adam Cohen", "title": "'Supreme Inequality' Argues That America's Top Court Has Become Right-Wing", "question_index": 33, "text": "Adam Cohen, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, if we had won the Alabama case, I would say that alone would have made an enormous difference in so many lives that that might have won. But since we didn't, I don't think that the thi"}
{"id": "808843704", "date": "2020-02-24", "guest": "Adam Cohen", "title": "'Supreme Inequality' Argues That America's Top Court Has Become Right-Wing", "question_index": 34, "text": "Adam Cohen is the author of the new book \"Supreme Inequality.\" After we take a short break, jazz critic Kevin Whitehead will review a new album by the Carla Bley Trio. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 1, "text": "That's my guest, Ben Mendelsohn, who stars as a police detective in the HBO limited series \"The Outsider,\" which is adapted from a Stephen King novel. Mendelsohn won an Emmy for his role in the Netflix series \"Bloodline.\" He's been in independent films and in franchise films, like the Batman film \"The Dark Knight Rises\" and the Star Wars spinoff \"Rogue One: A Star Wars Story\" in which he played the director of weapons research for the Empire. Mendelsohn is from Australia, where he started acting in TV and movies when he was 14. On \"The Outsider,\" he plays a police detective trying to solve the murder of a young boy whose body was found mutilated in the woods. Everything about the killer, including his fingerprints, fits the description of a popular high school teacher and Little League coach. The detective arrests and questions him, but the coach says he was more than 60 miles away at the time of the murder, and he has evidence to prove it. How can one person be in two places at the same time? Nothing about this case is making logical sense. So an eccentric private eye who seems to have some psychic perception is brought in to help. After considerable investigation, she comes up with an explanation involving the supernatural. Mendelsohn's character thinks bringing the supernatural into the case is an absurd waste of time. Here's Mendelsohn as Detective Ralph Anderson with a fellow detective who's more willing to keep an open mind about the psychic's theory. The other detective, played by Yul Vazquez, speaks first.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Ralph) [Expletive] No, I don't feel fine."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 2, "text": "Ben Mendelsohn, welcome to FRESH AIR. And congratulations on your starring role in this series. I really like you in this role as, like, a dependable, rational guy who's kind of hard-boiled, but beneath the surface, like, you're still grieving for your dead son. You're in a constant state of, like, grief and guilt. It's a change for you. I think most people are used to seeing you as, like, the tough guy, the bad guy, the person who's kind of unreliable and a little bit frightening.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Ralph) You know what? You keep your mind open. I'm just going to look for facts, evidence - you know, dumb cop [expletive] like that."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 3, "text": "So how did you get this part? I would imagine you wouldn't be the first person a casting director would think of for this role.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Ralph) You know what? You keep your mind open. I'm just going to look for facts, evidence - you know, dumb cop [expletive] like that."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 4, "text": "So I want to talk about your eyes for a minute because in your role in \"The Outsider,\" your eyes are filled with sadness...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ralph Anderson is an absolute gift. The show has just blitzed all my expectations and hopes, and it is a delight. But culturally, for me, I knew that being a classical, you know, Gary Cooper-type - so"}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 5, "text": "...And some skepticism.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 6, "text": "You keep people at a distance.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 7, "text": "And when you compare that to your eyes in things like \"Bloodline,\" in which you're, like, the black sheep of the family and no one trusts you and you've been doing some nefarious things on the side, or \"Animal Kingdom,\" where you're part of a family of criminals, your eyes are threatening in those. I mean, your eyes make you look really dangerous in those. And do you think about your eyes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 8, "text": "Compared to American men?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't, but I do think they're a certain window to the soul. Now, \"Animal Kingdom,\" I've seen - I remember seeing a little bit of that. And I found that - what I found kind of that worked in a terrif"}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 9, "text": "So you had to communicate being threatening through your looks and not through a weapon?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And there's a big difference. There's - the big difference in Australia and America is the guns, right? So you can convey a lot of aggression and a lot of status or a lot of avoidance of that, a"}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 10, "text": "You grew up in, I'd say - I'm guessing, like, upper-middle class because your father ran a brain research institute.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, and just the way you walk and just an avoidance. You just - there's a certain thing that happens when guys of a certain age in Australia or in a certain sort of class or strata or whatever pass "}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 11, "text": "Yeah, I would think that", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And no, so here's the interesting thing - you would think that, right? But..."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And no, so here's the interesting thing - you would think that, right? But..."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well, you know, part of Australia's roots is as a penal colony for England that would ship...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But what essentially happened is that - OK, so there was some early breakup, divorce kind of ugly stuff, et cetera, et cetera. Now, my father then moved us to what he thought was a more idyllic locati"}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 14, "text": "...Some of its prisoners to Australia. And do you feel like that left a permanent mark on Australian culture?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 15, "text": "So I want to get back to \"The Outsider\" for a moment.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I feel - I am absolutely sure it left a permanent mark. I am absolutely sure that in the same way that the early colonists here were coming here for religious freedom, freedom from, you know, tyranny "}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 16, "text": "Like, you're the voice of rationality.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Please."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 17, "text": "You know, you're about the facts. You're about using logic to try to solve this murder, and you're unwilling to accept any supernatural explanation. Do you relate to that as a person? And ever - have you ever had an experience that couldn't be explained by rational thinking?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 18, "text": "Yeah, I've kind of had that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I do relate to it as a person. I'm a son of a scientist. And I think in a lot of ways, I've had many things that are hard to explain in a mathematical or - in a way that I'm aware of, that are m"}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 19, "text": "We have to take a short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is actor Ben Mendelsohn. He stars in the HBO series \"The Outsider.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've had that so many times, and I get it with certain people. I've had situations in my life where, inexplicably, you know, someone's just there when you just need them. And I don't know whether we d"}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is actor Ben Mendelsohn, and he stars in the HBO series \"The Outsider.\" There are two episodes left. And if you haven't seen it but want to, it is on HBO On Demand. For people who only know you from \"The Outsider\" and who haven't heard you in Australian movies and TV shows or who only know you from your other American movies, it's going to be jarring for them to hear you speaking in this Australian accent. You are Australian. But...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've had that so many times, and I get it with certain people. I've had situations in my life where, inexplicably, you know, someone's just there when you just need them. And I don't know whether we d"}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 21, "text": "...I'm sure some of your American fans think of you as being American. Have you worked with voice coaches to get American-speak down?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 22, "text": "Oh. And did you already know Nicole Kidman from Australia?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Tom Jones (ph). I have the very good pleasure to have - Tom Jones is his name. And like the great singer, he is a master at it. And I sort of borrowed Tom Jones from Nicole Kidman."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 23, "text": "OK, so what are some of the key things you learned about, like, American pronunciations that you've drawn on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, forever. We - pretty much all of us and particularly of that generation, yeah, we all know each other."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 24, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You guys aren't as lazy as we are. It might take me a moment or two to kind of warm up here. But one of the first things you need to learn is that most of your voice is right up front of the mouth, an"}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 25, "text": "And more enunciation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You guys use your tongue a lot more. You speak - you have a lot of resonance at the back of your mouth, right in the back of your throat."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 26, "text": "So what kind of exercises did you have to do in order to speak less nasal and more from, as you discovered, the back of the throat?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, better enunciation. Your enunciation is clearer. You - the placement is further back in the mouth, whereas you want to think of Australians as essentially speaking around their nose area and bei"}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 27, "text": "So I'm going to ask you to help me with a pronunciation question", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think, mainly, it's just practice. You would - what we would do is start to practice. You grow up hearing American accents from the time you're born because of television and whatnot. But you just p"}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 28, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think, mainly, it's just practice. You would - what we would do is start to practice. You grow up hearing American accents from the time you're born because of television and whatnot. But you just p"}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 29, "text": "OK? And it's the name of our show, which is Fresh A-I-R.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Certainly."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 30, "text": "And I always fear that I'm saying fresh ear, as in, like, fresh E-A-R.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 31, "text": "OK", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it doesn't sound that way to me at all - FRESH AIR."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 32, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it doesn't sound that way to me at all - FRESH AIR."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 33, "text": "I was going to ask you for your help in helping me pronounce the name of my own show", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 35, "text": "FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. So give it to me - just say it to me normally, as you would."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 36, "text": "That sounded OK, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, you..."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 37, "text": "You grew up in different parts of Europe, right? In addition to growing up in Australia, you lived a few years in Germany with your family.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But, you know - no, it has absolutely - it's absolutely clear."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 38, "text": "So do you think growing up with different languages helped you with your ear when...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 39, "text": "...Learning different regions and different styles of speaking for your roles?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 40, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It helped with that, and the other bit that it helped - because I was so young - is it helped with that thing of being a natural outsider and having to notice how to behave in order to be accept"}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 41, "text": "So as you mentioned, you grew up with - in Australia with a lot of American movies and TV shows. Did you imitate favorite actors when you were growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it helped me to look at people and learn how to fit in."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 42, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah - De Niro I mean, without a doubt. Like, the first couple of years that I would act, there was a friend of mine who was also an actor - later became a comedian - and we were \"Taxi Driver\" fan"}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 43, "text": "So I love \"Taxi Driver,\" too. What do you love about the film?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 44, "text": "This is Paul Schrader, who wrote the film.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's so many combinations that come together. I think, ultimately, there was that Chinese guy that said to Scorsese, it's such a great film about loneliness. And I think, ultimately, what appeals t"}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 45, "text": "May...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He spent two weeks alone in New York, and he noticed a lot of things about what happened to him. He - and he was able to put that into a format. And the - it's a combination of them all. It's th"}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 46, "text": "May I just say, some day a real rain will come along.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's also got bits about it which are ridiculous."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 47, "text": "Very good", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And wash away all this trash from the sidewalk."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 48, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And wash away all this trash from the sidewalk."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 49, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I mean, look - also, I'm sorry. No one ever is going to take Betsy on a date to a porn and then go, oh, I don't know much about movies."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 50, "text": "I just know the part that where he's in the car and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There are other movies. I can take you to them, you know. I mean, come off it, you know. Like, so, you know, it does have its silly bits. And the other thing is, for people who are really into it, Mar"}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 51, "text": "...Looking at the apartment on the second floor.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, and there is another part where - yes."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 52, "text": "Yes", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, and being particularly repulsive."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 53, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, and being particularly repulsive."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 54, "text": "Do you want to say what it is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it's a disgusting, despicable thing in a lot of ways. But it contributes significantly to Travis, Robert De Niro's characters, why - the feeling of that film. But he's also in another bit of the f"}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 55, "text": "OK", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 56, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 57, "text": "All right. My guest is Ben Mendelsohn. He stars in the HBO series \"The Outsider.\" After a break, we'll talk about growing up in Australia, where he started his career at age 14. And Justin Chang will review the new movie \"Wendy.\" That's Wendy from the Peter Pan story. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I want the boffins out there to go back and have a watch and find it."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 58, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with actor Ben Mendelsohn. He's starring in the HBO series \"The Outsider,\" which is adapted from the Stephen King novel. Mendelsohn's known for his work in the Netflix series \"Bloodline,\" as well as his many roles in independent films and big franchise movies like the \"Batman\" film \"The Dark Knight Rises\" and the \"Star Wars\" spinoff \"Rogue One: A Star Wars Story.\" He often plays villains, but he's also played kings - Henry IV in the Netflix film \"The King\" and in the film \"Dark Waters,\" (ph) which starred Gary Oldman as Winston Churchill, Mendelsohn played King George VI, who ruled during World War II and spoke with a stutter. I have another accent question for you. What did you do to get a kingly kind of accent?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I want the boffins out there to go back and have a watch and find it."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 59, "text": "Can you show us an example of what you did to get a kingly kind of accent?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was really tough. That was - that was really tough. I had done a film called \"Starred Up,\" which was an English prison film, which is the greatest risk I ever felt that I took because it was goin"}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 60, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the first thing you have to understand when you are hearing me do this right now is it's going to - it's going to suck to a degree..."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 61, "text": "So you've played a lot of dark characters. My understanding is you went through some dark times yourself, including, like, drinking. You were expelled from school at the age of 13, is that right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But - because it takes a while for things to actually drop in. But one of the things you have to realize when you're speaking as a royal is they are - it's called received pronunciation, and the reaso"}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 62, "text": "Why was that a good thing that you were thrown out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've very fortunately got kicked out of a school here in the states. It was - it's near where you are. It's in Mercersburg, which is near Harrisburg. And it's, like, a coed boarding school."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 63, "text": "Did you not feel like you had much of a family with your family?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because it meant that I went back and I lived with my grandmother after refusing to attend another boarding school here. And after, I asked Mama if I could go live with her. She said, yes. The next da"}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 64, "text": "It must've felt so good to be making a living yourself because it sounds like you felt a little bit expelled from your family, but here you were, like, supporting yourself when you were in your mid teens.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no - well, no, no, and that was that. Yeah. No, no, no, I didn't. And that, in fact, was pretty much how it was. I was living with my grandmother by that stage. I mean, look, there was - there wer"}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 65, "text": "Helpful later for acting to have been in those positions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, and there were a lot - I did a lot of other jobs, too, because, you know, work isn't constant for an actor almost for most of their working life. So I would, you know, quite happily do whatever "}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 66, "text": "So another question about your father - since he ran a brain research center, where he's now a professor emeritus, were you interested in science?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So it's helpful to experience humans. I mean, I think one of the advantages that just ends up happening through British and Australian actors is that we do generally - you know, you do get a lot"}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 67, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I was. The sweetest thing that's ever happened to my dad is he's now one of those guys that just won't shut up about his son, and that never looked like that was a likely occurrence. But I - loo"}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 68, "text": "You mentioned lyrics. Do you sing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Then I wanted to be a cop after watching \"Dirty Harry\" and then I thought maybe I'd go into some computer science thing. And then I took drama as an easy subject, but I have a terrible memory except w"}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 69, "text": "Roy Orbison.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm a shower singer. Yeah. I'm a shower singer. But my favorite type of singers are generally - I mean, I'm a great lover of hip-hop and many rock and soul and funk and whatnot and whatnot. But in ter"}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 70, "text": "Oh, God. When I was growing up, like, one of my favorite songs on the world was the theme from \"Rawhide\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Roy - yeah, but Roy had a kind of a falsetto. I tended to like a deeper sort of - you know, a deeper sound. But they all had enormous voices, and they're beautiful, you know? They're beautiful voices,"}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 71, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Roy - yeah, but Roy had a kind of a falsetto. I tended to like a deeper sort of - you know, a deeper sound. But they all had enormous voices, and they're beautiful, you know? They're beautiful voices,"}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 72, "text": "The \"High Noon\" theme.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. And he does - I mean, \"Rawhide\" is his most notable, but he also covered a great deal of, you know..."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 73, "text": "Oh, and don't you love him singing the theme from the Mel Brooks movie \"Blazing Saddles\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. And - yeah, \"Do Not Forsake Me,\" exactly. And yeah, he covered a bunch of stuff and, yeah, Frankie Laine is easily, easily my favorite in that period. And that comes from one cassette I "}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 74, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. And - yeah, \"Do Not Forsake Me,\" exactly. And yeah, he covered a bunch of stuff and, yeah, Frankie Laine is easily, easily my favorite in that period. And that comes from one cassette I "}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 75, "text": "Oh, yeah. Oh, it's hilarious.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, does he?"}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 76, "text": "It's a total sendup of all of the big Western themes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know what? This is..."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 77, "text": "Yeah, absolutely", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no, now I'm going to go and check it out, for sure. For sure. Because I loved all that, and I loved the choruses, how they'd always have that supporting (vocalizing) you know? Or some cheesy phras"}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 78, "text": ". OK. We should pause here and take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Australian actor Ben Mendelsohn, and he stars in the HBO series \"The Outsider,\" and there's two episodes left. It's on Sunday nights, and, of course, it's also on demand. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no, now I'm going to go and check it out, for sure. For sure. Because I loved all that, and I loved the choruses, how they'd always have that supporting (vocalizing) you know? Or some cheesy phras"}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 79, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is Ben Mendelsohn, who is now starring in the HBO series \"The Outsider\" - two episodes left, Sunday nights. One of the things you're known for in the states is the Netflix series \"Bloodline,\" which ran from 2015 to 2017. And this was about a family that has a hotel in the Florida Keys, and you're the black sheep brother. You drink. You do drugs. You sold drugs. You have shady friends. You've basically been living in Miami, and you come back for a big anniversary of the family hotel. And your siblings - your three siblings really don't want you there. They don't trust you. They don't really like you. They think you bring trouble with you. And I want to play a short scene here. And this is a scene in which one of your brothers, played by Kyle Chandler, is really hoping you're going to leave. And you're really angry that your family doesn't want you. The two of you are on the edge of the ocean. It's the Florida Keys. And your character, Danny, speaks first.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no, now I'm going to go and check it out, for sure. For sure. Because I loved all that, and I loved the choruses, how they'd always have that supporting (vocalizing) you know? Or some cheesy phras"}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 80, "text": "You're laughing. But after your brother, played by Kyle Chandler, continues to beat you with a big plank, then he starts to drown you, and you are struggling. And of course, he actually really drowns your character in it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Danny, laughter)."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 81, "text": "Yeah. What was that scene like for you? Do you remember what it was like to be - have your head held under the water like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's a brutal thing."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 82, "text": "And we find that out in backstories because lucky for you, after a character is killed off, he comes back in flashbacks", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, I do. Yeah. But more importantly, I think when I watch that scene back, it is - it's awesome. I mean, it goes on for so long, and it's so terribly sad. Yeah, I think had \"Bloodline\" run a "}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 83, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, I do. Yeah. But more importantly, I think when I watch that scene back, it is - it's awesome. I mean, it goes on for so long, and it's so terribly sad. Yeah, I think had \"Bloodline\" run a "}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 84, "text": "So you won a Primetime Emmy for your performance in \"Bloodline.\" You weren't at the ceremony because you were shooting a Steven Spielberg film, \"Ready Player One.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes. Lucky for me in lots of ways. Look - \"Bloodline\" was extraordinary for me. \"Bloodline\" really, really put me properly on the map here."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 85, "text": "You have said that had you been at the ceremony to receive the award, you would have thanked your father for reminding you that sometimes when you're scared and overwhelmed, that you have the choice to be brave. What was the context? Do you remember the context that your father said that to you? And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 86, "text": "Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, he didn't say it to me like that. But he taught me that."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 87, "text": "And when you say he taught you that you have the choice to be brave, do you think being brave is a choice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He taught me that in a very oblique way. It wasn't even intended - one of the things - one of the great things my father gave me was incredible freedom of thought. And so that ends up being his gift t"}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 88, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, again, he didn't put it in those words. I'm extrapolating."}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 89, "text": "Ben Mendelsohn, it's been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much, and congratulations on \"The Outsider.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I think when you do have a bunch of choices in front of you and something seems daunting, it might be a good idea to do it. Then yeah, that's being brave, and that's - you do have a choice with th"}
{"id": "809579449", "date": "2020-02-26", "guest": "Ben Mendelsohn", "title": "'Outsider' Actor Ben Mendelsohn On Australian Machismo And Mastering Accents", "question_index": 90, "text": "Ben Mendelsohn stars in the HBO series \"The Outsider,\" which is shown Sunday nights. There are two episodes left. After we take a short break, Justin Chang will review the new film \"Wendy\" about the character from the Peter Pan story. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me."}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. In an article titled \"Trump's 'Deep State' Hit List,\" my guest Jonathan Swan writes about how the Trump White House and its conservative allies over the past 18 months assembled detailed lists of government officials who should be ousted because they weren't loyal to Trump and lists of Trump loyalists to replace them. Swan says he was briefed on or reviewed these memos and lists. Most of the details he revealed had not been previously published. Swan writes that the president's distrust has intensified since his impeachment and acquittal. These lists help explain some of the recent personnel changes in the Trump administration. Swan is national political reporter at the news website Axios and writes the weekly Axios Sneak Peak newsletter. He covers the Trump presidency and Republicans in Congress. He's broken some big stories, including that Trump was going to pull out of the Paris climate deal, recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital and end DACA. Jonathan Swan, welcome to FRESH AIR. So I want to ask you about your article this week headlined \"Trump's 'Deep State' Hit List.\" What qualifies this as a hit list?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 1, "text": "By everywhere, he means, like, in the Justice Department, Department of Homeland Security, the Defense Department.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So President Trump - I mean, we all see the public desire for him to root out his enemies, you know? He's tweeted, you know, we need to get the bad people out of government, et cetera. What we uncover"}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 2, "text": "So there literally are lists. Like, when you write hit list, there's literally lists.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All of those and also in the White House. So he has a network outside the White House, which is comprised of very well-connected conservative activists. One of them in particular is Ginni Thomas, who "}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 3, "text": "Wait. So let's back up a second.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that's right. There are lists of names, and I've seen both people he should fire and the reasons that he should fire them. And we put some of them in the story - you know, a number of State Depar"}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 4, "text": "So he was fired by General John Kelly...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 5, "text": "...When Kelly was chief of staff at the White House...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct."}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 6, "text": "...For security issues. What were those issues?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 7, "text": "This is McEntee...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've been very careful not to say them because I haven't been able to confirm exactly what it was. It was handled in a very strange way, and he was sort of - even people who were there at the time thi"}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 8, "text": "...The new personnel head.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct."}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 9, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct."}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 10, "text": "So Johnny McEntee, the new head of the Presidential Personnel Office - he's 29. He has no personnel experience.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so, just so you understand, he's not talking about people who are career government employees who have, you know, worked in the government maybe for 20 years. These are political appointees that P"}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 11, "text": "And he has hired as his new assistant, the Presidential Personnel Office's director of operation, a 23-year-old senior at George Washington University.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct."}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 12, "text": "So is this a pattern that you're seeing - that Trump has his hit list of who to remove and the people he's replacing them with are loyalists, but they don't necessarily have any experience or credentials for the job they're being appointed to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Politico just reported that story. And he's replacing - this 23-year-old, James Bacon - he's replacing a woman who has had experience for decades in personnel. So it's quite striking."}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 13, "text": "So you said that you actually saw some of the lists in some of the memo that was being given to President Trump of who to fire and who to hire. Give us a sense of what you've read in the hit list of who to get rid of.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I couldn't say that that's happening everywhere, but it is a pattern. And experience matters far, far less to Trump than loyalty. It's not even close."}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 14, "text": "So when Sean Doocey gets this memo from Trump with a list of names of people to fire 'cause they're not loyal enough to Trump and Doocey finds that his own name is on Page 1 of this memo, what happens to Doocey afterwards?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So there's this extraordinary memo. This memo was given to President Trump early last year, I'm told. And President Trump passes the memo on to his then-head of the Presidential Personnel Office, Sean"}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 15, "text": "I think we need to take a break here, so let me reintroduce you. My guest is Jonathan Swan. He's national political reporter at Axios. He writes the weekly Axios Sneak Peek newsletter and also covers the Trump presidency and Republicans in Congress. We'll be right back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he stays in the job for another year. And my understanding is that there was a conversation with the - that he and a colleague had a conversation with the president about this. I mean, there was"}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is Jonathan Swan. He is national political reporter at Axios. He writes the weekly Axios Sneak Peek newsletter and covers the Trump presidency and Republicans in Congress. So let's talk a little bit about Jessie Liu. Now, she had been the D.C. U.S. attorney, which is a very powerful role. And she was leaving that position with the plans of taking a top Treasury job, and then she was told, you're not going to get the Treasury job. So now she's out of a job. What are the reasons why she is not going to get the position that she was told she was going to get?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he stays in the job for another year. And my understanding is that there was a conversation with the - that he and a colleague had a conversation with the president about this. I mean, there was"}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 17, "text": "Wait. Can I stop you there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Jessie Liu is a really instructive case. She is a political appointee - again, not some career government person. President Trump's Treasury secretary, Steven Mnuchin, was the one who wanted her in"}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 18, "text": "And he's a friend of Barbara Ledeen's, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 19, "text": "...Who was making up this list.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, he is a friend of Barbara Ledeen's."}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yeah, who wrote the memo.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Who wrote the memo, correct."}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 21, "text": "Wait. Can I add one more...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it also includes the fact that Jessie Liu, in her job as U.S. attorney, did not indict Andrew McCabe, the former deputy FBI director and enemy of President Trump's. It includes all sorts of things."}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 22, "text": "...That you mentioned in your article? That she didn't act on criminal referrals of some of Justice Kavanaugh's accusers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 23, "text": "So we've been talking about the hit list, basically, that President Trump has to get rid of people who he considers disloyal. And we've been talking about how he's been replacing them, sometimes with people who really have no qualifications for the job. The hit list was compiled in part by a group called Groundswell, a conservative activist group that's headed by Ginni Thomas, who is the wife of Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas. Tell us more about this group and Ginni Thomas' role in it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's correct. That was another item listed in the list. It was a very long list."}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 24, "text": "So what is one of the accomplishments of Groundswell in terms of removing somebody who they thought was disloyal, somebody who you haven't yet mentioned?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the group was formed after the 2012 presidential election. And there are lots of groups that meet in D.C. every week to strategize and, you know, discuss their ideological objectives. There has bee"}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 25, "text": "Why didn't they like McMaster?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So one prominent example of a successful campaign they've run is to get rid of President Trump's former national security adviser, H.R. McMaster. They led an aggressive campaign within the conservativ"}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 26, "text": "Are people who believe in conspiracy theories now holding key positions in our government?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Partly because of some of the people that McMaster fired from the National Security Council. He got rid of a guy named Rich Higgins for writing a memo. So Rich Higgins used to serve on the National Se"}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 27, "text": "Well, Trump's acting director of national intelligence, Rick Grenell, has no intelligence experience.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. I mean, it depends what you describe as a conspiracy theory. I mean, I don't know of - I can't name you someone in the government that believes exactly that, and I don't want to make some blanke"}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 28, "text": "My guest is Jonathan Swan, national political reporter for the news website Axios. After a break, we'll talk more about the conservative activist group Groundswell. We'll talk about and hear an excerpt of Swan's interview with Jared Kushner, and Swan will tell us about the challenges he faced interviewing President Trump on camera. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's true. He's a loyalist. Trump sees him as someone who is very loyal to him. He was the ambassador - U.S. ambassador to Germany. Before that, he worked - you know, he had a consulting firm. And b"}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Jonathan Swan, national political reporter for Axios He covers the Trump presidency and Republicans in Congress. His recent article \"Trump's 'Deep State' Hit List\" is about how the Trump White House and its allies over the past 18 months assembled detailed lists of government officials who should be ousted because they weren't loyal to Trump and created lists of Trump loyalists to replace them. These lists help explain some of the personnel changes within the Trump administration. So I want to get back to Groundswell, the conservative activist group that has been compiling lists of people within the Trump administration who aren't loyal enough to Trump. The head of the group, Ginni Thomas, is married to Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas. Is that considered an ethical conflict of interest?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's true. He's a loyalist. Trump sees him as someone who is very loyal to him. He was the ambassador - U.S. ambassador to Germany. Before that, he worked - you know, he had a consulting firm. And b"}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 30, "text": "You write that Trump sees himself as invincible ever since he was acquitted in the Senate impeachment trial and that gambles that he took that were criticized, he thinks those gambles have really worked out for him. So can you talk about that a little bit more, about how he sees himself as invincible now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There are people in the White House who have made that point. Look - Ginni Thomas, in her own right, is a very prominent and powerful conservative activist, very effective, has built this organization"}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 31, "text": "Axios has an HBO series that starts again this Sunday night. And in the first season, in the first episode, you and your colleague at Axios, Jim VandeHei interviewed President Trump, and then later in the series, you interviewed Jared Kushner. I want to play an excerpt of your interview with Jared Kushner because you really asked him some challenging questions and really pushed back on some of his answers. So what I want to do is play the part about his vision - this is an excerpt of the section on his vision for Middle East peace and what he plans for the Palestinians. So here's my guest Jonathan Swan with Jared Kushner in June of 2019.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The president - it's not just the president; it's also some people in his inner circle - not all of them, but some of them. They are much less likely to listen to the naysayers or voices of caution. A"}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 32, "text": "That was my guest Jonathan Swan interviewing Jared Kushner in June of 2019 on the HBO series \"Axios.\" And Jonathan Swan is national political reporter at Axios. How did you get the interview with Jared Kushner, and were there any ground rules that he asked for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They don't mind the aid being cut."}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 33, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jonathan Swan. He's national political reporter at Axios, where he writes a weekly newsletter called Axios Sneak Peek. He covers the Trump presidency and Republicans in Congress. We'll be right back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There were no ground rules. And we ask for interviews with top officials all the time, and sometimes, often, mostly, we get rejected, and sometimes they come through. And I think the timing of it was "}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 34, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Jonathan Swan, national political reporter at Axios, where he writes the weekly Axios Sneak Peek newsletter and covers the Trump presidency and Republicans in Congress. You have a lot of sources within the Trump administration. What's in it for the sources to talk with you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There were no ground rules. And we ask for interviews with top officials all the time, and sometimes, often, mostly, we get rejected, and sometimes they come through. And I think the timing of it was "}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 35, "text": "You're a national political reporter and Axios, and Axios has an HBO series that returns this Sunday night. In the first season, you and your colleague at Axios, Jim VandeHei, who's a co-founder of Axios, interviewed President Trump. And before the interview, you both talk on camera about what it's like to interview Trump. And one of the points that you make is that if you go at Trump hard, he shuts down, and also, if you ask introspective questions, those are a waste of time with him. He has to - you have to ask about topics. So tell us how those calculations figure into how you interview him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All sorts of different motivations, and you've got to be wary of all of them. At the start of the Trump administration, there was a lot of very, very brutal warfare between senior officials. You had, "}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 36, "text": "I would imagine one of the challenges of interviewing Trump is - well, two of the challenges - one is he speaks in very stream-of-consciousness kind of way. You can ask a question, but the answer will probably go off in several different directions. And within the answer, there's likely to be several statements that just aren't accurate. And then as an interviewer, I'd imagine you'd have to decide - so are you going to try to correct each one of them or challenge him on each one of those statements that aren't accurate, you know, that aren't really factual or just kind of let that go or edit it out? Did you have to deal with that when you interviewed him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I've only interviewed him on camera once. And my observation from watching every single interview, I think, that he's ever done, basically, is that - I'll give you an example. You know, at the t"}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 37, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Jonathan Swan, national political reporter at Axios, where he writes the weekly Axios Sneak Peek newsletter and covers the Trump presidency and Republicans in Congress. Let's take a short break here, and then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, absolutely. And we actually made a pretty - it was my fault anyway - we made a significant mistake when - so I asked him a question at the time - I'd - so I'd been talking to a source of mine fo"}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 38, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Jonathan Swan, national political reporter at Axios, where he writes the weekly Axios Sneak Peek newsletter and covers the Trump presidency and Republicans in Congress. I want to ask you a little bit about your career. So you're from Australia, and you came here - what year did you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, absolutely. And we actually made a pretty - it was my fault anyway - we made a significant mistake when - so I asked him a question at the time - I'd - so I'd been talking to a source of mine fo"}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 39, "text": "2014, which was just a few years ago. And by 2016, like, you're covering the Trump White House - well, Trump's - 2017. So it's really, like, an amazing", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "2014."}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 40, "text": "- did you have to learn a lot about American government? And I'm also wondering, too, like, was it helpful for you in a way to be relatively new to America because you didn't have like a preexisting record here that you could be - that people could have preexisting thoughts about, like, oh, we don't like him because we don't like the way he reported this story? Like, you were starting fresh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "2014."}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 41, "text": "And so was the Trump White House.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was..."}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 42, "text": "Having come from Australia, is there anything that you find particularly surprising about how the U.S. democracy works?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". This is kind of interesting. So it wasn't by any particular design. It just so happened that it was a completely different campaign. If Hillary Clinton had have won the White House as everyone expec"}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 43, "text": "So your father in Australia is a health and science journalist.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. The two things that I find just the most jarring are the money. The money in politics over here is just - it's this - you can't even explain it to Australians when you try. They just can't even f"}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 44, "text": "And you have an aunt and uncle who cover crime.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yep."}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 45, "text": "When you were growing up, did you see your family doing things in their journalistic positions and their reporting positions that you found especially interesting and exciting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep."}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 46, "text": "But all the litigation that your father faced didn't scare you off from becoming a journalist.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One of my earliest memories - oh, gosh, I must have been very, very young. My dad exposed - there was a Dr. McBride who was a sort of hero in Australian medicine, and he was actually a fraud. He was c"}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 47, "text": "Jonathan Swan, thank you so much for talking with us, and thank you for your reporting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It sort of - not the litigation, but I actually didn't want to be a - I had no desire to be a journalist, and I sort of came to it. So I - you know, I worked, even during high school, with the newspap"}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 48, "text": "Jonathan Swan is a national political reporter for the news website Axios. If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, like our interviews with Adam Cohen about his book \"Supreme Inequality\" about the Supreme Court and its shift to the right or with Steven Levy about the history of the social media giant Facebook or with actor Ben Mendelsohn, who stars in the HBO series \"The Outsider,\" check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "809942566", "date": "2020-02-27", "guest": "Jonathan Swan", "title": "Understanding Trump's 'Hit List': Experience Matters Far Less Than Loyalty", "question_index": 49, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our engineer today is Charlie Kaier. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Mooj Zadie, Seth Kelley, Thea Chaloner and Joel Wolfram. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "810303523", "date": "2020-02-28", "guest": "Marty Grosz", "title": "Rhythm Guitarist Marty Grosz: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 0, "text": "Marty Grosz, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Today is the 90th birthday of Marty Grosz, the jazz rhythm guitarist who has been a longtime visitor to FRESH AIR. He's just written a new autobiography called \"It's A Sin To Tell A Lie: My Life In Ja"}
{"id": "810303523", "date": "2020-02-28", "guest": "Marty Grosz", "title": "Rhythm Guitarist Marty Grosz: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 1, "text": "I really love your playing. And you brought your guitar with you. Can you open with a song for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "810303523", "date": "2020-02-28", "guest": "Marty Grosz", "title": "Rhythm Guitarist Marty Grosz: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 2, "text": "Oh, great,", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Take me to that land of jazz. Let me hear the kind of blues Philadelphia has. I want to step to a tune that's full of ginger and pep. Pick them up. Lay them down. Let me hear that razzmatazz"}
{"id": "810303523", "date": "2020-02-28", "guest": "Marty Grosz", "title": "Rhythm Guitarist Marty Grosz: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 3, "text": "really terrific. My guest is Marty Grosz. You started playing guitar, I think, when you were 13.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Take me to that land of jazz. Let me hear the kind of blues Philadelphia has. I want to step to a tune that's full of ginger and pep. Pick them up. Lay them down. Let me hear that razzmatazz"}
{"id": "810303523", "date": "2020-02-28", "guest": "Marty Grosz", "title": "Rhythm Guitarist Marty Grosz: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 4, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Around that time, yeah."}
{"id": "810303523", "date": "2020-02-28", "guest": "Marty Grosz", "title": "Rhythm Guitarist Marty Grosz: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 5, "text": "You've done a lot of rhythm guitar. What interested you in that form?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ukulele first."}
{"id": "810303523", "date": "2020-02-28", "guest": "Marty Grosz", "title": "Rhythm Guitarist Marty Grosz: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 6, "text": "Did you always sing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Scatting). He liked that kind of thing, and so that knocked me out."}
{"id": "810303523", "date": "2020-02-28", "guest": "Marty Grosz", "title": "Rhythm Guitarist Marty Grosz: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 7, "text": "How'd you start doing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "810303523", "date": "2020-02-28", "guest": "Marty Grosz", "title": "Rhythm Guitarist Marty Grosz: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 8, "text": "You think audiences develop a more intimate relationship with the singer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was working with a band in Chicago - Brass Rail, Preview, some - one of those joints. And we were backstage and I used to do this kind of thing backstage, you know, (scatting) during the intermissio"}
{"id": "810303523", "date": "2020-02-28", "guest": "Marty Grosz", "title": "Rhythm Guitarist Marty Grosz: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well, we have time for another song. If you'd be willing to play it, I'd love to hear it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) sweet and slow, rock-a-bye me to and fro while the band is moaning low. Honey, take your time. You see; all of a sudden, it has a meaning. The rest of the time, it's sort of like muzak (ph)."}
{"id": "810303523", "date": "2020-02-28", "guest": "Marty Grosz", "title": "Rhythm Guitarist Marty Grosz: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 10, "text": "Oh, great", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Beautiful changes in different keys, beautiful changes and harmonies. He starts in C and changes to D. He's messing around, most any old key. What's that? Hear that minor strain. That's it. "}
{"id": "810303523", "date": "2020-02-28", "guest": "Marty Grosz", "title": "Rhythm Guitarist Marty Grosz: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Beautiful changes in different keys, beautiful changes and harmonies. He starts in C and changes to D. He's messing around, most any old key. What's that? Hear that minor strain. That's it. "}
{"id": "810303523", "date": "2020-02-28", "guest": "Marty Grosz", "title": "Rhythm Guitarist Marty Grosz: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 12, "text": "That's great. That's Marty Grosz on guitar and vocals and Randy Reinhart on cornet playing Fats Waller's \"The Panic Is On.\" Boy, that was fun. Marty Grosz, you were actually born in Germany...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Pardon me. I'm all upset. Pardon me - can't help but fret. I pace the floor all the day. Since the dawn, I've phoned around. Since the dawn, I've combed this town. Has anyone seen my baby? S"}
{"id": "810303523", "date": "2020-02-28", "guest": "Marty Grosz", "title": "Rhythm Guitarist Marty Grosz: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 13, "text": "...In 1930.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In Berlin."}
{"id": "810303523", "date": "2020-02-28", "guest": "Marty Grosz", "title": "Rhythm Guitarist Marty Grosz: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 14, "text": "Your father was the cartoonist and painter George Grosz...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "810303523", "date": "2020-02-28", "guest": "Marty Grosz", "title": "Rhythm Guitarist Marty Grosz: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 15, "text": "...Who, in 1920s Berlin, was doing a lot of political satire and caricature and was about to get himself into a lot of trouble. What was he doing that was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct."}
{"id": "810303523", "date": "2020-02-28", "guest": "Marty Grosz", "title": "Rhythm Guitarist Marty Grosz: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 16, "text": "In New York.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what was he doing that got him in trouble? Yes, he - and as early as 1923, '22, he had done a - several scathing cartoons of Hitler himself. And, of course, he was on the left and against the fa"}
{"id": "810303523", "date": "2020-02-28", "guest": "Marty Grosz", "title": "Rhythm Guitarist Marty Grosz: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 17, "text": "So I think you were 3 when you moved with your family to here. Is that right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. They wanted to have somebody who was hip and politically acerbic, and so they sent him a telegram. He was in Berlin at the time, and he, of course, leaped at it. He had - he, like many European "}
{"id": "810303523", "date": "2020-02-28", "guest": "Marty Grosz", "title": "Rhythm Guitarist Marty Grosz: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 18, "text": "So when you were growing up in New York, were there a lot of German emigres, a lot of artists who had fled Germany who were...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I moved - yeah. Well, my mother came and got us in '33, and - yes. That's right."}
{"id": "810303523", "date": "2020-02-28", "guest": "Marty Grosz", "title": "Rhythm Guitarist Marty Grosz: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 19, "text": "...Your father's friends and at your house?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "810303523", "date": "2020-02-28", "guest": "Marty Grosz", "title": "Rhythm Guitarist Marty Grosz: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 20, "text": "So many of Fats Waller's songs were really entertaining and a lot of fun and really kind of infectious and upbeat. But he wrote some more ballad-like songs, too...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, the house was full of them. We had all kinds of interesting people. Now I think it was a very - a great way to grow up. We - there was hardly a time when we didn't have some refugee staying with u"}
{"id": "810303523", "date": "2020-02-28", "guest": "Marty Grosz", "title": "Rhythm Guitarist Marty Grosz: The 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 21, "text": "...That had a kind of different emotional sound to them. Could you choose one of his ballads for us and introduce it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "810314999", "date": "2020-02-28", "guest": "Katie Wee", "title": "Aidy Bryant On 'Shrill,' 'SNL' Thrills, And Not Feeling Bad About Her Body", "question_index": 0, "text": "Aidy Bryant, welcome to FRESH AIR, and congratulations on \"Shrill.\" So let me start with a question related to the clip that we just heard. Have you gotten a lot of unsolicited, unwanted advice over the years from strangers or people who barely knew you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Annie) OK. Well, have a good one, guys. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character) You, too. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character) You, too."}
{"id": "810314999", "date": "2020-02-28", "guest": "Katie Wee", "title": "Aidy Bryant On 'Shrill,' 'SNL' Thrills, And Not Feeling Bad About Her Body", "question_index": 1, "text": "What would it feel like to try to smile and say, OK, thank you, when you were actually pretty offended by what people were saying to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I mean, even that clip you just played is something that was said to me. And someone did grab my wrist and say, you know, you're actually very small under - you're petite, you know? And I think for "}
{"id": "810314999", "date": "2020-02-28", "guest": "Katie Wee", "title": "Aidy Bryant On 'Shrill,' 'SNL' Thrills, And Not Feeling Bad About Her Body", "question_index": 2, "text": "So the series is based on Lindy West's essays, her autobiographical essays. But you're a big part of the writing team, and you're the star. So is the character that you're playing, Annie, a kind of combination of, like, your personality and your life and Lindy West's personality and her life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's weird because I think instinctually, even though sometimes people have said things that are hurtful to me, I immediately am like, oh, that's OK. That's OK, you know? And I think one of "}
{"id": "810314999", "date": "2020-02-28", "guest": "Katie Wee", "title": "Aidy Bryant On 'Shrill,' 'SNL' Thrills, And Not Feeling Bad About Her Body", "question_index": 3, "text": "I want to play one more scene from \"Shrill.\" And this is a scene - again, your character is a writer at a weekly magazine who's not being taken seriously by her editor. And you decide you want to write about a pool party exclusively for fat women, and so you're going to go there in your capacity as a journalist. Your roommate is going there just to participate in the pool party. Your character is very self-conscious about being seen in a bathing suit, so she puts on, like, jeans and a loose-fitting shirt to go to the pool party. And people are saying, like, why are you all dressed? It's a pool party. You're going, well, I'm here as a journalist, you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think that's true. I think - you know, naturally, because the words are coming out of my mouth, there is a little bit of my filter there. But I also think one of the things that we were doing "}
{"id": "810314999", "date": "2020-02-28", "guest": "Katie Wee", "title": "Aidy Bryant On 'Shrill,' 'SNL' Thrills, And Not Feeling Bad About Her Body", "question_index": 4, "text": "So, like, you're sitting in your clothes, dipping your feet in the water. But, you know, eventually, you decide - you're seeing everybody being so comfortable in their bodies and dancing and swimming. You take off your jeans and shirt. You dance with everybody. You swim. You have a great time. But your editor's really mad at you because you haven't shown up for this kind of fitness bicycle event for...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "810314999", "date": "2020-02-28", "guest": "Katie Wee", "title": "Aidy Bryant On 'Shrill,' 'SNL' Thrills, And Not Feeling Bad About Her Body", "question_index": 5, "text": "Yeah. So anyways, he's angry at you. You're angry at him. You go home and talk to your roommate and her new girlfriend, who your roommate met at this pool party. You're telling your roommate and her girlfriend here about how much you enjoyed the pool party and how angry you are with how your editor reacts to you as a fat woman.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's, like, a work health event."}
{"id": "810314999", "date": "2020-02-28", "guest": "Katie Wee", "title": "Aidy Bryant On 'Shrill,' 'SNL' Thrills, And Not Feeling Bad About Her Body", "question_index": 6, "text": "That's Aidy Bryant in her new Hulu series, \"Shrill.\" Tell us about writing that scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Annie) Me too because it would have saved me so much time and pain."}
{"id": "810314999", "date": "2020-02-28", "guest": "Katie Wee", "title": "Aidy Bryant On 'Shrill,' 'SNL' Thrills, And Not Feeling Bad About Her Body", "question_index": 7, "text": "The cereal story in there, where your character says that when she was young, there were times at dinner that her mother would make her eat a bowl of cereal instead of the food she'd prepared for the rest of the family in the hopes that, you know, your character would shrink a little bit, just get a little bit smaller - so did that story come from your life or Lindy West's life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's still hard for me to listen to, and it was certainly, to me, like, the hardest day of shooting and the hardest thing to write because I think, at least for me and I know for Lindy and for, you kn"}
{"id": "810314999", "date": "2020-02-28", "guest": "Katie Wee", "title": "Aidy Bryant On 'Shrill,' 'SNL' Thrills, And Not Feeling Bad About Her Body", "question_index": 8, "text": "You know, just one more thing about your character is that she seems very comfortable in her body when she's not around people who are judging her.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know? I came here. I did my job. I'm funny. I wrote my way to this position. And now a stylist or a magazine or whoever is responsible - like, it's their job to dress me and dress me appropriate"}
{"id": "810314999", "date": "2020-02-28", "guest": "Katie Wee", "title": "Aidy Bryant On 'Shrill,' 'SNL' Thrills, And Not Feeling Bad About Her Body", "question_index": 9, "text": "So you did improv in Chicago. You finally got into Second City. What are some of the characters that you did that you developed in Second City?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview from last year with \"Saturday Night Live\" cast member Aidy Bryant, who stars in the Hulu series \"Shrill,\" now in its second season."}
{"id": "810314999", "date": "2020-02-28", "guest": "Katie Wee", "title": "Aidy Bryant On 'Shrill,' 'SNL' Thrills, And Not Feeling Bad About Her Body", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I mostly was writing original characters. I'm sure to paraphrase them now will make them sound not funny at all. But I remember one of the ones that I wrote was a woman who was sort of s"}
{"id": "810314999", "date": "2020-02-28", "guest": "Katie Wee", "title": "Aidy Bryant On 'Shrill,' 'SNL' Thrills, And Not Feeling Bad About Her Body", "question_index": 11, "text": "That's funny.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- didn't go so well for her. But she tried to keep it moving and singing happily and then occasionally berating her ex-husbands."}
{"id": "810314999", "date": "2020-02-28", "guest": "Katie Wee", "title": "Aidy Bryant On 'Shrill,' 'SNL' Thrills, And Not Feeling Bad About Her Body", "question_index": 12, "text": "So were you nervous for your \"Saturday Night Live\" audition? And just describe what the scene was like, what it looked like from your point of view as you were doing your audition.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks."}
{"id": "810314999", "date": "2020-02-28", "guest": "Katie Wee", "title": "Aidy Bryant On 'Shrill,' 'SNL' Thrills, And Not Feeling Bad About Her Body", "question_index": 13, "text": "How did you find out that you'd gotten cast?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "810314999", "date": "2020-02-28", "guest": "Katie Wee", "title": "Aidy Bryant On 'Shrill,' 'SNL' Thrills, And Not Feeling Bad About Her Body", "question_index": 14, "text": "So did you feel like you couldn't just come out and say, does that mean I'm hired?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "when you left."}
{"id": "810314999", "date": "2020-02-28", "guest": "Katie Wee", "title": "Aidy Bryant On 'Shrill,' 'SNL' Thrills, And Not Feeling Bad About Her Body", "question_index": 15, "text": "\"Saturday Night Live\" has gotten much more political in the Trump era, and you've played Sarah Huckabee Sanders. And so I want to play a clip of one of those sketches. This is a fake commercial on \"Saturday Night Live\" for a sleeping pill called HuckaPM. And the hook is, like, how do you sleep at night? And it has a kind of double meaning", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, totally. I was like, I'll just sit here quietly and smile forever."}
{"id": "810314999", "date": "2020-02-28", "guest": "Katie Wee", "title": "Aidy Bryant On 'Shrill,' 'SNL' Thrills, And Not Feeling Bad About Her Body", "question_index": 16, "text": "because it's a sleeping pill, and it's about, like, Sarah Huckabee Sanders' conscience. And every time in this clip when you hear, like, a bang or a crashing sound, it's because Sarah Huckabee Sanders has taken one of these sleeping pills, and it just, in a split second, knocks her out cold. And she's, like, falling and crashing into things because it immediately puts her to sleep. So here is Aidy Bryant as Sarah Huckabee Sanders on \"Saturday Night Live.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, totally. I was like, I'll just sit here quietly and smile forever."}
{"id": "810314999", "date": "2020-02-28", "guest": "Katie Wee", "title": "Aidy Bryant On 'Shrill,' 'SNL' Thrills, And Not Feeling Bad About Her Body", "question_index": 17, "text": "So that was my guest Aidy Bryant as Sarah Huckabee Sanders. So who was the voice of the announcer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As narrator) HuckaPM - how do you sleep at night?"}
{"id": "810314999", "date": "2020-02-28", "guest": "Katie Wee", "title": "Aidy Bryant On 'Shrill,' 'SNL' Thrills, And Not Feeling Bad About Her Body", "question_index": 18, "text": "OK. So who wrote the sketch?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Cecily Strong."}
{"id": "810314999", "date": "2020-02-28", "guest": "Katie Wee", "title": "Aidy Bryant On 'Shrill,' 'SNL' Thrills, And Not Feeling Bad About Her Body", "question_index": 19, "text": "So how did you prepare to do the character of Sarah Huckabee Sanders?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I wrote that with Kent Sublette, who is one of the head writers at \"SNL.\""}
{"id": "810314999", "date": "2020-02-28", "guest": "Katie Wee", "title": "Aidy Bryant On 'Shrill,' 'SNL' Thrills, And Not Feeling Bad About Her Body", "question_index": 20, "text": "Well, Aidy Bryant, it's been great to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, this is probably oversimplifying, but a lot of times, when I have to look at an impression, I try to sort of, like, put them into a box that I can get my head around. So one of the things that"}
{"id": "814881355", "date": "2020-03-12", "guest": "Dan Diamond", "title": "Reporter: White House Knew Of Coronavirus' 'Major Threat,' But Response Fell Short", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're going to talk about how President Trump and some members of his administration have mismanaged the coronavirus outbreak, helping fuel the crisis. My guest Dan Diamond is a reporter for Politico who investigates health care policy and politics, including the Trump administration's coronavirus response. He's written about dysfunction and infighting within the administration and how that's slowed the response to the spread of the virus and led to some counterproductive decisions. The virus has spread to the point where, yesterday, the World Health Organization declared it a pandemic, which is defined as the worldwide spread of a new disease. Dan Diamond, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Tell us your main takeaways from the president's speech last night.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "814881355", "date": "2020-03-12", "guest": "Dan Diamond", "title": "Reporter: White House Knew Of Coronavirus' 'Major Threat,' But Response Fell Short", "question_index": 1, "text": "What are some of the things you wish he had addressed in the speech that he didn't?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Terry, I guess we can start with the good, such as it was. On Wednesday night, nearly two months after the first U.S. case of novel coronavirus was detected, President Trump finally treated this"}
{"id": "814881355", "date": "2020-03-12", "guest": "Dan Diamond", "title": "Reporter: White House Knew Of Coronavirus' 'Major Threat,' But Response Fell Short", "question_index": 2, "text": "We seem to be entering, like, a new phase of the epidemic. Yesterday, the World Health Organization declared the virus a pandemic. The NBA suspended the season. Tom Hanks and Rita Wilson have been diagnosed with the virus. So have we reached a new stage? And what does that mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in his remarks, the president didn't address the biggest problem - that our domestic health infrastructure is not ready for this, partly because of his administration. We're still wildly behind "}
{"id": "814881355", "date": "2020-03-12", "guest": "Dan Diamond", "title": "Reporter: White House Knew Of Coronavirus' 'Major Threat,' But Response Fell Short", "question_index": 3, "text": "Among the things the president didn't address last night is giving advice to states and cities about, you know, protocols for gatherings, advice to hospitals about how to handle protocol, like, what the protocol should be. Do you know if there are any federal protocols coming out of the administration to states and cities, to hospitals and health care workers, any set of standards that they're advising, you know, states, cities, hospitals, churches, synagogues, public places to follow? Or is it every city, every state is making these decisions on their own?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in many ways, the World Health Organization was just confirming what public health experts have said now for days or even weeks. This virus is here. It is around the world. It is spreading. It i"}
{"id": "814881355", "date": "2020-03-12", "guest": "Dan Diamond", "title": "Reporter: White House Knew Of Coronavirus' 'Major Threat,' But Response Fell Short", "question_index": 4, "text": "You know, you've written that the biggest mistake so far the Trump administration has made with the coronavirus is not having test kits and testing sooner. What went wrong?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "At this point, there is guidance coming from the CDC, the Centers for Disease Control, to help hospitals, help health care workers figure out who to diagnose, who to treat, who should be tested. Those"}
{"id": "814881355", "date": "2020-03-12", "guest": "Dan Diamond", "title": "Reporter: White House Knew Of Coronavirus' 'Major Threat,' But Response Fell Short", "question_index": 5, "text": "And it might be hard for the labs that actually conduct the tests to keep up with the need.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As one official has said, Terry, the question might not be what went wrong; it's what went right? The Trump administration and health officials knew back in January that this coronavirus was going to "}
{"id": "814881355", "date": "2020-03-12", "guest": "Dan Diamond", "title": "Reporter: White House Knew Of Coronavirus' 'Major Threat,' But Response Fell Short", "question_index": 6, "text": "Why didn't the U.S. use the World Health Organization's test?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Trump administration has argued that there's a surplus of tests, that anyone who wants a test can get one. And there is some truth to that. Now tests have been churned out. But the sheer number of"}
{"id": "814881355", "date": "2020-03-12", "guest": "Dan Diamond", "title": "Reporter: White House Knew Of Coronavirus' 'Major Threat,' But Response Fell Short", "question_index": 7, "text": "It's almost embarrassing, nationally, that the United States is so far behind other countries in terms of its ability to conduct tests for the virus.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...To have someone tip me off because that is a question that I've been trying to solve and my colleagues have been looking to solve, too. The World Health Organization did have a working test. Someon"}
{"id": "814881355", "date": "2020-03-12", "guest": "Dan Diamond", "title": "Reporter: White House Knew Of Coronavirus' 'Major Threat,' But Response Fell Short", "question_index": 8, "text": "What do you think the impact is of the lost time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think at this point, Terry, South Korea, in the past 24 hours, has probably done more tests for coronavirus than the United States has done in the past two months. South Korea can do 10,000 tests pe"}
{"id": "814881355", "date": "2020-03-12", "guest": "Dan Diamond", "title": "Reporter: White House Knew Of Coronavirus' 'Major Threat,' But Response Fell Short", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Dan Diamond, a reporter for Politico who investigates health care policy and politics, including the Trump administration's response to the coronavirus. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's been a shame for public health writ large, and I think it's been horribly concerning for local leaders. We are flying blind, as the coronavirus threatens the United States. If there is an"}
{"id": "814881355", "date": "2020-03-12", "guest": "Dan Diamond", "title": "Reporter: White House Knew Of Coronavirus' 'Major Threat,' But Response Fell Short", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Dan Diamond, a reporter for Politico who investigates health care policy and politics, including the Trump administration's response to the coronavirus. So what is your assessment - since you cover the health agencies, what's your assessments of how much - that has gone wrong as a result of, like, bad political decisions, incompetence, just bad luck?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's been a shame for public health writ large, and I think it's been horribly concerning for local leaders. We are flying blind, as the coronavirus threatens the United States. If there is an"}
{"id": "814881355", "date": "2020-03-12", "guest": "Dan Diamond", "title": "Reporter: White House Knew Of Coronavirus' 'Major Threat,' But Response Fell Short", "question_index": 11, "text": "Trump has made it clear he wants low numbers. He didn't want people who tested positive from a cruise ship to be evacuated and then quarantined because the numbers would go up, and he didn't want those numbers to go up. It would look bad; it would make him look bad. So what do you think the most consequential decisions he's made so far are in terms of the virus, decisions for better or worse?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't use this word lightly, Terry, but I'd say that this testing failure and the broader response to the coronavirus has been a catastrophe. The reasons it is a catastrophe, some are on the Trump a"}
{"id": "814881355", "date": "2020-03-12", "guest": "Dan Diamond", "title": "Reporter: White House Knew Of Coronavirus' 'Major Threat,' But Response Fell Short", "question_index": 12, "text": "Are there cuts the Trump administration made to the public health infrastructure that have left us more undefended? For example, wasn't there a National Security Council health task force that was disbanded under Trump?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When President Trump went on air and did a press conference talking about his concern over the, quote, \"numbers\" and didn't want a cruise ship with infected Americans to necessarily dock and have the "}
{"id": "814881355", "date": "2020-03-12", "guest": "Dan Diamond", "title": "Reporter: White House Knew Of Coronavirus' 'Major Threat,' But Response Fell Short", "question_index": 13, "text": "Something I found very interesting - and I'd love to hear your take on this - is that Tucker Carlson, who, of course, has a show weekday nights on Fox News - he has been one of Trump's strongest advocates. And Trump seems to listen, you know, to watch Tucker Carlson's show. So I don't know if he said this on the air, but I was on the Fox News website, and he had something in print on the website that was headlined, \"The Coronavirus Will Get Worse. Our Leaders Need To Stop Lying About That.\" And that was Tuesday of this week. And by our leaders, I will assume he means people in the Trump administration and perhaps the president himself. What do you make of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. The president famously axed a team in the White House about two years ago that was focused specifically on pandemic preparedness. He cut funding for a program that predicted when viruses"}
{"id": "814881355", "date": "2020-03-12", "guest": "Dan Diamond", "title": "Reporter: White House Knew Of Coronavirus' 'Major Threat,' But Response Fell Short", "question_index": 14, "text": "My guest is Dan Diamond, a reporter for Politico who has been investigating the Trump administration's response to the coronavirus. After a break, we'll talk about the members of the administration who are in charge of managing the crisis and what their backgrounds are and what their track records have been. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I haven't seen Tucker Carlson's piece, but I will say that the president has made a number of false claims, spread misinformation and frankly has hindered the overall government response, whethe"}
{"id": "814881355", "date": "2020-03-12", "guest": "Dan Diamond", "title": "Reporter: White House Knew Of Coronavirus' 'Major Threat,' But Response Fell Short", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Dan Diamond, a political reporter who has been investigating the Trump administration's response to the coronavirus. Diamond has been covering health care policy and politics for about 10 years. He's been writing about how President Trump and some members of his administration have mismanaged the coronavirus outbreak, helping fuel the crisis. So how America responds to the coronavirus is in the hands of people most Americans don't know much about. So let's take a look at who are some of our health policy leaders right now, what their backgrounds are and what they're doing. Let's start with Alex Azar, who's the head of Health and Human Services. He took over after Tom Price was forced out, and he was forced out in large part because of an investigative article that you did showing that he'd used government funds for a private jet.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I haven't seen Tucker Carlson's piece, but I will say that the president has made a number of false claims, spread misinformation and frankly has hindered the overall government response, whethe"}
{"id": "814881355", "date": "2020-03-12", "guest": "Dan Diamond", "title": "Reporter: White House Knew Of Coronavirus' 'Major Threat,' But Response Fell Short", "question_index": 16, "text": "What is it about his management style that's so alienating?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Tom Price exit at the health department really was the inciting incident for so many feuds that continue today. And, yes, Politico did a series of investigative stories that led to his ouster abou"}
{"id": "814881355", "date": "2020-03-12", "guest": "Dan Diamond", "title": "Reporter: White House Knew Of Coronavirus' 'Major Threat,' But Response Fell Short", "question_index": 17, "text": "My impression is that he is anti-abortion. He has described HHS as the department of life. He described the Trump administration as the most pro-life administration in the country's history. He said that in a very admiring way. How has that affected him as the leader of HHS? And was he appointed in part because of his anti-abortion position?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it depends who you talk to because some would say he's the manager that the health department needs, that he has put difficult performers in line and managed out the biggest problems. But his cr"}
{"id": "814881355", "date": "2020-03-12", "guest": "Dan Diamond", "title": "Reporter: White House Knew Of Coronavirus' 'Major Threat,' But Response Fell Short", "question_index": 18, "text": "So you've reported that both Alex Azar, the head of Health and Human Services, and Seema Verma, the head of Medicare and Medicaid, both really go out of their way to try to please Trump. They are also - Verma and Azar - kind of at war with each other.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Secretary Azar has had private views of being anti-abortion for years and years. I've talked to friends and colleagues who say what he has said recently in public is what he has thought in private for"}
{"id": "814881355", "date": "2020-03-12", "guest": "Dan Diamond", "title": "Reporter: White House Knew Of Coronavirus' 'Major Threat,' But Response Fell Short", "question_index": 19, "text": "OK. Thank you for the", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, not kind of; they're absolutely fighting it out."}
{"id": "814881355", "date": "2020-03-12", "guest": "Dan Diamond", "title": "Reporter: White House Knew Of Coronavirus' 'Major Threat,' But Response Fell Short", "question_index": 20, "text": "clarification. So how does their desire to please Trump feed into both how they're handling the epidemic and feed into the feud that they're having with each other? And that feud is very distracting from the real job at hand, which is dealing with the epidemic.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, not kind of; they're absolutely fighting it out."}
{"id": "814881355", "date": "2020-03-12", "guest": "Dan Diamond", "title": "Reporter: White House Knew Of Coronavirus' 'Major Threat,' But Response Fell Short", "question_index": 21, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Dan Diamond. He's a reporter for Politico who investigates health care policy and politics, including the Trump administration's response to the coronavirus. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "President Trump has made it clear through his actions, through his tweets, that an official's place in his administration can be decided in a moment. And I think that has leaders like Alex Azar and Se"}
{"id": "814881355", "date": "2020-03-12", "guest": "Dan Diamond", "title": "Reporter: White House Knew Of Coronavirus' 'Major Threat,' But Response Fell Short", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Dan Diamond, a reporter for Politico who investigates health care policy and politics, and he's been covering the Trump administration's response to the coronavirus. So you've reported that Alex Azar of Health and Human Services and Seema Verma of Medicare and Medicaid both want to please President Trump. How have they gone about trying to please him during this period of the epidemic? And is that leading them to say or do things that they otherwise wouldn't do? In other words, are they doing things that shouldn't be done or needn't be done or are unnecessarily time-consuming just because they want to stay in Trump's good graces?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "President Trump has made it clear through his actions, through his tweets, that an official's place in his administration can be decided in a moment. And I think that has leaders like Alex Azar and Se"}
{"id": "814881355", "date": "2020-03-12", "guest": "Dan Diamond", "title": "Reporter: White House Knew Of Coronavirus' 'Major Threat,' But Response Fell Short", "question_index": 23, "text": "Well, let's take a look at Robert Redfield, who's the head of the Centers for Disease Control. And he was a well-known AIDS researcher, and you say he was a favorite of Christian conservatives when Trump appointed him in 2018. He helped fight HIV-AIDS in Africa, but his approach was to emphasize abstinence and to recommend condoms only as a last resort. Can you tell us more about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think they are both trying to show that they're incredibly active and aggressive in public, but some of the decisions behind the scenes haven't always reflected the best judgment of career professio"}
{"id": "814881355", "date": "2020-03-12", "guest": "Dan Diamond", "title": "Reporter: White House Knew Of Coronavirus' 'Major Threat,' But Response Fell Short", "question_index": 24, "text": "So is there a decision, for better or worse, that Redfield was largely responsible for that has changed the course of the epidemic in the U.S. for better or worse?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Dr. Redfield emerged in the 1980s and 1990s during the AIDS epidemic, and he was seen in some corners as a very important figure in fighting the AIDS epidemic for his willingness to attack this proble"}
{"id": "814881355", "date": "2020-03-12", "guest": "Dan Diamond", "title": "Reporter: White House Knew Of Coronavirus' 'Major Threat,' But Response Fell Short", "question_index": 25, "text": "Vice President Pence not only is now leading the task force against the coronavirus, he also has close ties to several people in key health positions right now. Seema Verma, who is the head of Medicare and Medicaid, was his health care consultant when he was the governor of Indiana. Jerome Adams, who is the surgeon general, was in the Pence administration. When Alex Azar was in Indiana as a senior executive at the pharmaceutical company Eli Lilly, he became connected to Mike Pence. So it seems like Mike Pence has been very influential on several levels in dealing with the coronavirus and in working with the people and maybe even helping appoint the people connected with fighting the virus now. Let's look at Pence's own health care policy in terms of epidemiology when he was the governor of Indiana. So tell us a few key things about Pence in Indiana.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's hard to know in the middle of the crisis. But I do think, Terry, we've seen a pattern of behavior from CDC that's been troubling. The failure to roll out lab tests as promised - that's a CDC prob"}
{"id": "814881355", "date": "2020-03-12", "guest": "Dan Diamond", "title": "Reporter: White House Knew Of Coronavirus' 'Major Threat,' But Response Fell Short", "question_index": 26, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Dan Diamond. He's a reporter for Politico who investigates health care policy and politics, including the Trump administration's response to the coronavirus. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When Mike Pence was governor in Indiana, there was a major outbreak of HIV, an outbreak that public health officials said was largely preventable. One step that Pence could have taken was allowing for"}
{"id": "814881355", "date": "2020-03-12", "guest": "Dan Diamond", "title": "Reporter: White House Knew Of Coronavirus' 'Major Threat,' But Response Fell Short", "question_index": 27, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. If you're just joining us, my guest is Dan Diamond, a reporter for Politico. He investigates health care policy and politics, including the Trump administration's response to the coronavirus. In your work covering the coronavirus epidemic, you've been covering the official government response, trying to find out what's happening behind the scenes, and you've also written about certain feuds within the department, like, you know, within the Trump administration and how those feuds are contributing to how the Trump administration is handling the epidemic. And just this week, one of the stories that you broke was about this email breakdown in Medicare and Medicaid. And there wasn't enough communication about the email breakdown, so Medicare and Medicaid missed a certain number of emails. They were out of the loop for a while. I mean, that just contributed to the general chaos. So what's the larger significance of stories like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When Mike Pence was governor in Indiana, there was a major outbreak of HIV, an outbreak that public health officials said was largely preventable. One step that Pence could have taken was allowing for"}
{"id": "814881355", "date": "2020-03-12", "guest": "Dan Diamond", "title": "Reporter: White House Knew Of Coronavirus' 'Major Threat,' But Response Fell Short", "question_index": 28, "text": "What's another?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "HHS, the health department, was in the middle of navigating the emergency funding package that they were going to ask Congress to supply to fight coronavirus. This was about two weeks ago. And the day"}
{"id": "814881355", "date": "2020-03-12", "guest": "Dan Diamond", "title": "Reporter: White House Knew Of Coronavirus' 'Major Threat,' But Response Fell Short", "question_index": 29, "text": "Like on fighting the virus, not on fighting for his job", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "About two weeks ago, my colleague Nancy Cook and I reported that the White House had soured on Alex Azar leading the coronavirus response. He was asked about it in congressional testimony because we b"}
{"id": "814881355", "date": "2020-03-12", "guest": "Dan Diamond", "title": "Reporter: White House Knew Of Coronavirus' 'Major Threat,' But Response Fell Short", "question_index": 30, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "About two weeks ago, my colleague Nancy Cook and I reported that the White House had soured on Alex Azar leading the coronavirus response. He was asked about it in congressional testimony because we b"}
{"id": "814881355", "date": "2020-03-12", "guest": "Dan Diamond", "title": "Reporter: White House Knew Of Coronavirus' 'Major Threat,' But Response Fell Short", "question_index": 31, "text": "Is the information you're getting saying, basically, that it's too late to prevent a wide outbreak in the U.S.?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, on fighting the threat to the American people, not fighting who has which title."}
{"id": "814881355", "date": "2020-03-12", "guest": "Dan Diamond", "title": "Reporter: White House Knew Of Coronavirus' 'Major Threat,' But Response Fell Short", "question_index": 32, "text": "All right, well, thank you so much for your reporting, and thank you for being on our show. Dan Diamond, I really appreciate it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The information that I have is the outbreak is almost certainly coming at some level, but what health officials can still do is slow the outbreak, mitigate the outbreak, for a bunch of very good reaso"}
{"id": "814881355", "date": "2020-03-12", "guest": "Dan Diamond", "title": "Reporter: White House Knew Of Coronavirus' 'Major Threat,' But Response Fell Short", "question_index": 33, "text": "Dan Diamond investigates health care policy and politics for Politico. If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed - like this week's interview with writer James McBride, who has a new novel called \"Deacon King Kong,\" or RuPaul, whose show \"RuPaul's Drag Race\" is now in its 12th season, or New York Times Lebanon bureau chief Ben Hubbard, author of a new book about Saudi Arabia's young, enigmatic leader Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman - check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, thanks for having me. I just wish it was for a happier topic."}
{"id": "814881355", "date": "2020-03-12", "guest": "Dan Diamond", "title": "Reporter: White House Knew Of Coronavirus' 'Major Threat,' But Response Fell Short", "question_index": 34, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Mooj Zadie, Seth Kelley and Thea Chaloner. Therese Madden directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, thanks for having me. I just wish it was for a happier topic."}
{"id": "815368449", "date": "2020-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'The Plot Against America' Asks: What If The U.S. Had Sided With The Nazis?", "question_index": 0, "text": "That's Philip Roth reading from his new novel, \"The Plot Against America.\" You know, one of the things I really like about reading the novel is that, you know, when we read about World War II and when we read about Hitler's rise to power, we know what happened. We know the Jews should be getting out of Germany. They don't necessarily know that at the time. But when we read your novel set in America, and Lindbergh doesn't want Americans to go to war, and this anti-Semitism takes root in America, we don't know whether the Jewish families are safe or not. We don't know whether they should be fleeing or not. They don't know, either. And we're in the same boat. And that makes it - is real the word I'm looking for? I don't know. But it takes away that hindsight of history and leaves us as unsure as your characters are.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) A new life began for me. I'd watched my father fall apart, and I would never return to the same childhood. The mother at home was now away all day, working for Hahne's. The brother on call w"}
{"id": "815368449", "date": "2020-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'The Plot Against America' Asks: What If The U.S. Had Sided With The Nazis?", "question_index": 1, "text": "Why did you choose Lindbergh as the president who kind of unleashes anti-Semitism in America? Why make Lindbergh the president?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I like what you said. It takes away the hindsight of history. I have to tell you I didn't know what they should do, either. That's what interested me in the story. Given the threat that American"}
{"id": "815368449", "date": "2020-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'The Plot Against America' Asks: What If The U.S. Had Sided With The Nazis?", "question_index": 2, "text": "Now, President Lindbergh in your novel may be anti-Semitic, but after he's elected, he knows better than to just come out and say it. And he initiates a program that brings young Jewish children to the, quote, \"heartland\" to kind of initiate them in the ways of heartland American life. He initiates a homeland program that relocates Jewish families to, you know, quote, \"heartland places\" of America, and nobody really knows - the Jewish families don't really know whether this is really meant to be a way of opening up their horizons, of broadening their lives or whether it's a truly anti-Semitic way of removing them from safe, friendly neighborhoods and put them in communities that might be very hostile and also kind of breaking up the Jewish vote by breaking up Jewish communities. Did you imagine that for Lindbergh to really catch on in America he would have to use euphemistic language for anything that might truly be anti-Semitic at heart and couched in the language of, you know, the heartland and just folks and...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2004 interview with Philip Roth. His book, \"The Plot Against America,\" is the basis of a new HBO miniseries that starts Monday. The novel has been adapted "}
{"id": "815368449", "date": "2020-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'The Plot Against America' Asks: What If The U.S. Had Sided With The Nazis?", "question_index": 3, "text": "You know, but again, even in that Homestead Act, you know, in which corporations relocate Jewish employees, the letter that your father gets in the novel is so euphemistic. Let me just read a few lines from it, you know? (Reading) Metropolitan Life is proud to be among the very first group of major American corporations and financial institutions selected to participate in the new Homestead program, which is designed to give emerging American families a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity to move their households at government expense in order to strike roots in an inspiring region of America previously inaccessible to them. Wow, doesn't that sound great? But, you know, as the family in the novel figures out, this is the government and the corporation joining hands to coerce Jewish families to move.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, they are - it is ambiguous to know what the intention is. For instance, to begin with the first one, which is called Just Folks, that is a program in which Jewish boys from, I think, 10 to"}
{"id": "815368449", "date": "2020-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'The Plot Against America' Asks: What If The U.S. Had Sided With The Nazis?", "question_index": 4, "text": "Yeah", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was great fun writing that letter."}
{"id": "815368449", "date": "2020-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'The Plot Against America' Asks: What If The U.S. Had Sided With The Nazis?", "question_index": 5, "text": ". Yeah, you really got that cheerful, corporate PR language down", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was great fun writing that letter."}
{"id": "815368449", "date": "2020-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'The Plot Against America' Asks: What If The U.S. Had Sided With The Nazis?", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was great fun writing that letter."}
{"id": "815368449", "date": "2020-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'The Plot Against America' Asks: What If The U.S. Had Sided With The Nazis?", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I found out what it was like to be Dick Cheney."}
{"id": "815368449", "date": "2020-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'The Plot Against America' Asks: What If The U.S. Had Sided With The Nazis?", "question_index": 8, "text": "Philip's cousin, you know, your cousin, Alvin, in the book who is something of a hood, hates Hitler and wants to fight against him. And, you know, the United States, under Lindbergh, is not going to join the war. But he wants to enter it anyway, so he joins the Canadian army and fights against Hitler. But he loses half of one leg in the war and returns with a stump that's covered in ulcers, boils and scabs. He moves in with the Roth family, and at first, it's horrifying to Philip. He says it was bad enough that we weren't living in a normal country. Now, we would never again be living in a normal house. A life of even more suffering was taking shape around me. And he prays to the housekeeping gods to protect our humble five rooms and all they contain from the vengeful fury of the missing leg. In thinking about the impact that this missing leg, this stump, would have on the young Philip Roth's life, did you have anything like it, anything incomparable to draw on from your own life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's - to most people, it would be impenetrable. They would just take it at face value. My father, because he's so committed against Lindbergh from the start, refuses to do what's asked of him."}
{"id": "815368449", "date": "2020-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'The Plot Against America' Asks: What If The U.S. Had Sided With The Nazis?", "question_index": 9, "text": "There's an amazing scene after Alvin moves back in with the Roth family, and Philip is watching Alvin struggling to bandage the stump so he could put the stump in the prosthetic leg. And, you know, Alvin is getting so frustrated and disgusted with the difficulty of bandaging it up, you know, correctly. So one day, when Alvin's out, Philip tries bandaging his own leg to see what's it like. And a scab - one of Alvin's scabs falls off the bandage onto Philip's leg, and it's just mortifying to him. In fact, I'd like you to read that passage from the novel.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, editor of the website TV Worth Watching, in for Terry Gross. HBO is premiering a new miniseries Monday from David Simon, who created \"The Wire,\" and his frequen"}
{"id": "815368449", "date": "2020-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'The Plot Against America' Asks: What If The U.S. Had Sided With The Nazis?", "question_index": 10, "text": "I really love this passage and - about how the horror of finding Alvin's scab on the bandage, the scab that falls onto Philip's own leg, leads him to the basement to puke. And, of course, the basement is the place of his nightmares because of all the mold and mildew and because he always thinks that the ghosts of his dead relatives somehow inhabit the basement, and the ghost of his dead neighbor inhabits the basement. So it's this, like, place of horror that so many children have. So many children have their place of horror, whether it's the cellar or some other place. And I guess, you know, we talked a little bit about the prosthetic leg. Can you talk a little bit about the cellar of your home...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) I'd spent the day at school mentally running through what I'd watched him do the night before. But at 3:30, when I got home, I'd only just started to wrap the first bandage around an imagina"}
{"id": "815368449", "date": "2020-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'The Plot Against America' Asks: What If The U.S. Had Sided With The Nazis?", "question_index": 11, "text": "...And what horrors that held for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "815368449", "date": "2020-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'The Plot Against America' Asks: What If The U.S. Had Sided With The Nazis?", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thought I was old enough by now, Terry..."}
{"id": "815368449", "date": "2020-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'The Plot Against America' Asks: What If The U.S. Had Sided With The Nazis?", "question_index": 13, "text": "And there's just one other thing about that scene I want to ask you. You know, when Alvin's scab, which has clinged (ph) to the bandage, falls on Philip's leg and Philip ends up puking from the horror of it, what made you think about that - about that transferring of the scab?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And, like - and that I could take it. And I went down to the cellar. And, alas, it had been changed. It's no longer awful, unfortunately. They'd built a kind of little apartment down there, et cete"}
{"id": "815368449", "date": "2020-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'The Plot Against America' Asks: What If The U.S. Had Sided With The Nazis?", "question_index": 14, "text": "I think it's a really powerful moment. And it kind of, like, further represents, like, the horror of the war, the horror of the mutilation of the war entering first Philip's home and then actually falling onto his own body.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're very interested in this scab."}
{"id": "815368449", "date": "2020-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'The Plot Against America' Asks: What If The U.S. Had Sided With The Nazis?", "question_index": 15, "text": "Before I ask the next question, I just want to say a word to parents that this next question is an adult question, and if you're listening with a child and you think it might make you or your child uncomfortable, you might want to tune back in a couple of minutes. OK, here's the question. There's a wonderful moment where Philip witnesses his cousin Alvin doing something that he doesn't understand. What Alvin is doing, it turns out, is masturbating. And Philip is only seeing a portion of Alvin, so he doesn't really see what's going on. Later, Alvin - Philip goes to the place where Alvin was and sees this kind of, you know, gooey body fluid stuck on the wall and doesn't know what it is. And what he imagines is that it was something that festered in a man's body and then came spurting from his mouth when he was completely consumed with grief. And I thought, wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think you've answered the question, actually - just then better than I could - which is it has to do with the horror of the war. I mean, the stump is the war to the boy. The stump is politics "}
{"id": "815368449", "date": "2020-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'The Plot Against America' Asks: What If The U.S. Had Sided With The Nazis?", "question_index": 16, "text": "That's really interesting. One is that he would so misinterpret what was going on, but also the possibility that a child would imagine that there was a fluid - a sticky fluid that would come spurting from someone's mouth when he was completely consumed with grief is so interesting. Did you ever imagine such a thing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think you've answered the question, actually - just then better than I could - which is it has to do with the horror of the war. I mean, the stump is the war to the boy. The stump is politics "}
{"id": "815368449", "date": "2020-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'The Plot Against America' Asks: What If The U.S. Had Sided With The Nazis?", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yes, that's right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Only when I was writing this book. And also, by the way, the place is the cellar..."}
{"id": "815368449", "date": "2020-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'The Plot Against America' Asks: What If The U.S. Had Sided With The Nazis?", "question_index": 18, "text": "Mmm hmm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...The nefarious cellar. No, I never - I worked that through when I was doing the writing. I wanted somehow to capture another - a side of Alvin's grief that the little boy would not understand - that"}
{"id": "815368449", "date": "2020-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'The Plot Against America' Asks: What If The U.S. Had Sided With The Nazis?", "question_index": 19, "text": "You know, this is - this family, the Roth family in your novel, is facing this new growing wave of anti-Semitism in the United States, and they don't know how far it will go, which, of course, raises the question, what does being Jewish mean to this family? And you have a beautiful description of what being Jewish means in this neighborhood. You say it was work that identified and distinguished our neighbors from me far more than religion. And all the men in the neighborhood are either in business for themselves, or they're salesmen, or they're self-employed. A few of them are professionals. But what does being Jewish mean to the Roth family? What did it mean to your family and to your neighbors when you were growing up?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2004 interview with Philip Roth. His novel \"The Plot Against America\" is the basis of a new HBO miniseries. It was adapted by David Simon and Ed Burns, who"}
{"id": "815368449", "date": "2020-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'The Plot Against America' Asks: What If The U.S. Had Sided With The Nazis?", "question_index": 20, "text": "So what you're saying, in a way, was that being Jewish was just - it was a state of being. It's something that you were. It didn't even necessarily have to do with going to temple or observing Jewish holidays. It's just what you were.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "was perhaps a little dismayed just shrugged it off. They did what they had to do - you know? - and what was expected."}
{"id": "815368449", "date": "2020-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'The Plot Against America' Asks: What If The U.S. Had Sided With The Nazis?", "question_index": 21, "text": "You said that in writing this book, you wanted to figure out how your family would have responded if the world during World War II was the world that you imagined in this novel, and the family and the whole Jewish community was potentially under attack. The mother in your book, I think, is really a hero. She's helping the people in her family. She's helping people outside of her family and doing it without calling attention to herself. She's bolstering the egos of the men in her family, not - you know, that kind of stereotyped, you know, Jewish mother of Jewish fiction - of some Jewish fiction - where the mother is domineering and controlling and all of that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes, yes. Now, once it's challenged, as it is in this book, then it's something else. Then it becomes a source of threat. And in my - in the case of my father - well, my father's story is the sto"}
{"id": "815368449", "date": "2020-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'The Plot Against America' Asks: What If The U.S. Had Sided With The Nazis?", "question_index": 22, "text": "Yes, right", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've heard about it."}
{"id": "815368449", "date": "2020-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'The Plot Against America' Asks: What If The U.S. Had Sided With The Nazis?", "question_index": 23, "text": ". Yes, precisely", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've heard about it."}
{"id": "815368449", "date": "2020-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'The Plot Against America' Asks: What If The U.S. Had Sided With The Nazis?", "question_index": 24, "text": ". So, I mean, this mother is not that at all. And she's - I think she's really a quiet hero. And which was your mother closer to - you know, the mother in this novel or the mother in other novels?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've heard about it."}
{"id": "815368449", "date": "2020-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'The Plot Against America' Asks: What If The U.S. Had Sided With The Nazis?", "question_index": 25, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, in inventing the big thing, the Lindbergh thing - after having done that, I did not want to invent a family. The whole thing would have gotten, in my mind, as I thought of it at the time - w"}
{"id": "815368449", "date": "2020-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'The Plot Against America' Asks: What If The U.S. Had Sided With The Nazis?", "question_index": 26, "text": "Why not? What was the characteristics of your family that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's my good luck as..."}
{"id": "815368449", "date": "2020-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'The Plot Against America' Asks: What If The U.S. Had Sided With The Nazis?", "question_index": 27, "text": "So how'd your brother react when he read it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "before he read it."}
{"id": "815368449", "date": "2020-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'The Plot Against America' Asks: What If The U.S. Had Sided With The Nazis?", "question_index": 28, "text": "I have one last question for you, and this has to do with writing in obsession. You've said that you write to prevent your mind from obsessing about nothing. I guess when you're writing, you can obsess about what you're writing. If you weren't writing and your mind was obsessing about nothing, what would the nothing likely be like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I sent him a manuscript. My brother is rather laidback, and we're very close. And he's exceedingly kind. And he said, you made me more interesting than I was."}
{"id": "815368449", "date": "2020-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'The Plot Against America' Asks: What If The U.S. Had Sided With The Nazis?", "question_index": 29, "text": "There you go", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, depends if I have something to dwell on. If I'm - yes, I do. I'd dwell on the fact that I'm not writing."}
{"id": "815368449", "date": "2020-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'The Plot Against America' Asks: What If The U.S. Had Sided With The Nazis?", "question_index": 30, "text": ". Very good", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, depends if I have something to dwell on. If I'm - yes, I do. I'd dwell on the fact that I'm not writing."}
{"id": "815368449", "date": "2020-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'The Plot Against America' Asks: What If The U.S. Had Sided With The Nazis?", "question_index": 31, "text": ". OK, and is that painful if you're not writing - to dwell on that and obsess about the failure of not writing and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, depends if I have something to dwell on. If I'm - yes, I do. I'd dwell on the fact that I'm not writing."}
{"id": "815368449", "date": "2020-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'The Plot Against America' Asks: What If The U.S. Had Sided With The Nazis?", "question_index": 32, "text": "Yeah. Well, Philip Roth, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's painful for me."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. It doesn't feel like there's much to celebrate right now, but today, we're going to celebrate the 90th birthday of Stephen Sondheim, the greatest Broadway composer and lyricist of our time, and one of the best musically and most musically innovative ever. It seems as if there's always one or more of his shows being revived in New York. Revivals of \"West Side Story,\" for which he wrote the lyrics, and his show \"Company\" are currently suspended because of the virus. And ticket sales for an upcoming revival of his show \"Assassins\" are currently suspended. We'll be hearing some of Sondheim's music during the course of this interview and hearing what he has to say about those songs. His shows include \"Anyone Can Whistle,\" \"Follies,\" \"A Little Night Music,\" \"Sweeney Todd,\" \"Sunday In The Park With George,\" \"Into The Woods\" and \"Passion.\" Early in his career, he wrote the lyrics for \"Gypsy.\" Let's start with the opening song from the first show for which he wrote words and music, \"A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Forum,\" which opened in 1962. Here's Zero Mostel.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 1, "text": "Stephen Sondheim, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Are you surprised to find yourself in the position as, like, the elder genius since it seems like you spent so much time as, like, the really young brilliant guy? You know what I mean", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Pseudolus, singing) Something familiar, something peculiar, something for everyone - a comedy tonight. Something appealing, something appalling, something for everyone - A comedy tonight. Nothing "}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 2, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Pseudolus, singing) Something familiar, something peculiar, something for everyone - a comedy tonight. Something appealing, something appalling, something for everyone - A comedy tonight. Nothing "}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 3, "text": "In the Roundabout Theatre production of \"Sondheim On Sondheim,\" you say that people assume that a lot of your songs are really autobiographical, but they're not, with the exception of \"Opening Doors\" from your 1981 show \"Merrily We Roll Along.\" And I saw a revival of the show a few years ago. It didn't last long, sadly, on Broadway. But I saw a revival by the York Theatre Company.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think of myself as 18 years old. So, you know, I'm only surprised when I look in the mirror. No, I'm - as far as I'm concerned, I'm 18 and very promising."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 4, "text": "It was wonderful. I loved the show. And I love the songs from the show. So I want to play \"Opening Doors.\" And then I want to talk a little bit about it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yeah."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 5, "text": "And do you want to describe where the song fits into the story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 6, "text": "So this song is at the point where they're kind of hoping to become real, you know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. It's about - it takes - the song takes place over a period of two years in the lives of the three leading players, who are in their late 20s. And two of them are songwriters - a lyricist and a co"}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 7, "text": "...A real composer, a real lyricist and a real novelist.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. Yeah. They're..."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 8, "text": "They're opening doors.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They're opening doors."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 9, "text": "And we're going to hear this sung by - in the original cast recording sung by Jim Walton, Lonny Price. And the part of the producer who interjects in the middle here will be sung by Jason Alexander who played George on \"Seinfeld.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They're knocking on doors. They're knocking on doors..."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 10, "text": "So here we go - from Stephen Sondheim's \"Merrily We Roll Along.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 11, "text": "That's \"Opening Doors\" from \"Merrily We Roll Along\" by my guest Stephen Sondheim, who said this is his, really, autobiographical song. So is the part autobiographical where the producer complains that that's not a song you can hum, give me a melody.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Joe Josephson, singing) Listen; boys, maybe it's me, but that's just not a hum-mum-mum-mum-mum-mum-mum-mumable melody. Write more. Work hard. Leave your name with the girl. Less avant-garde - leav"}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 13, "text": "Now, the producer sings, I'll let you know when Stravinsky has a hit, he sings sarcastically. Now, you studied with the avant-garde composer Milton Babbitt. When you studied with him, was your ambition Broadway? Or was it more...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure. Oh, sure. Oh, sure. Oh, sure. But it's autobiographical in the general sense. It's, you know - first of all, I didn't have a collaborator. I mean, it's not specifically autobiographical. I w"}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 14, "text": "Can you give me an example of an insight you got from Babbitt studying, say, a Jerome Kern song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no. I always wanted to write songs. Well, he's a songwriter manque. I wanted to learn compositional technique, and that's what I learned from him. But we would spend - we had four-hour sessions on"}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 15, "text": "Now, Babbitt wrote atonal music, among other things, and he wrote a now famous essay called \"Who Cares If You Listen?\" that was published in High Fidelity in 1958 in which he suggested that composers should withdraw from the public world to a world of private performance and electronic media and eliminate the public and social aspects of composition. Now, did that sense of principle, that a certain kind of music should just be uncompromising, kind of give you permission in a way to be uncompromising on Broadway when you felt like you needed to be?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One of the things we analyzed in detail - one of the songs - was \"All The Things You Are,\" which has a remarkable harmonic structure in it, which, among other things, consists of the fact that the ton"}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 16, "text": "Exactly. Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think I've ever been uncompromising in that sense. I've always been uncompromising in terms of - I don't change something simply because somebody says, oh, I can't hum that. But I..."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 17, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded with Stephen Sondheim in 2010 on the occasion of his 80th birthday. We're listening back to it today because Sunday is his 90th birthday. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But no. But I - you know, I'm interested in the theater because I'm interested in communication with audiences. Otherwise, I would be in concert music. I would be in another kind of profession. No, I "}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 18, "text": "My guest is Stephen Sondheim. When we left off, we were talking about studying with composer Milton Babbitt. Now, an example of a song that I think is maybe influenced by your experience with new music, your experience with Milton Babbitt, is part of \"Sweeney Todd.\" And I'm thinking of the \"Epiphany,\" especially toward the end, like, when Sweeney sings full of joy, the chords are so dark there is no joy", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But no. But I - you know, I'm interested in the theater because I'm interested in communication with audiences. Otherwise, I would be in concert music. I would be in another kind of profession. No, I "}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But no. But I - you know, I'm interested in the theater because I'm interested in communication with audiences. Otherwise, I would be in concert music. I would be in another kind of profession. No, I "}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 20, "text": "It is the joy of anger and revenge.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's the idea."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 21, "text": "And it's so discordant. I mean, I just love that section. Are there things that you learned in composition that helped you write that kind of Broadway music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's the idea."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 22, "text": "Oh, I didn't mean that", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No more than that helped me write \"A Little Night Music\" or \"A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Forum.\" The principles are exactly the same. The expressivity is different. Incidentally, I stumbl"}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 23, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No more than that helped me write \"A Little Night Music\" or \"A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Forum.\" The principles are exactly the same. The expressivity is different. Incidentally, I stumbl"}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 24, "text": "But, you know, the way it is on the cast recording, it sounds like there's a consonant and a dissonant chord kind of battling each other", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's all right. No, so - but yes, it's dissonant because what's going on in Sweeney's head is dissonant. That would be. In fact, I originally didn't bring the number to a hand but had it end on a so"}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 25, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's all right. No, so - but yes, it's dissonant because what's going on in Sweeney's head is dissonant. That would be. In fact, I originally didn't bring the number to a hand but had it end on a so"}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 26, "text": "OK, so let's hear this end of the \"Epiphany.\" And this is the moment where Sweeney Todd, the barber, learns that the judge that sent him away to prison on a life sentence on trumped-up charges had later raped Sweeney's wife and taken Sweeney's daughter as his ward. And Sweeney at this point, just finding out about this, he's decided to use his razors to take revenge against the judge. And the work he refers to in the song is the work of revenge.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's correct, and that's exactly what I - and that is very unsettling, and that is exactly the kind of thing that kills a hand. That's precisely what I mean. You're actually right. There's a constan"}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 27, "text": "That's Len Cariou singing in the original cast recording of \"Sweeney Todd.\" My guest is Stephen Sondheim. Now, that last note in the song that Len Cariou sings - joy, full of joy - did you think hard about what that note should be? Because it's not the note that - you expect a kind of resolution at the end there, a musical resolution.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And I will get him back even as he gloats. In the meantime, I'll practice on less honorable throats. And my Lucy lies in ashes. And I'll never see my girl again. But the work waits. I'm alive at las"}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 28, "text": "And that note does not - yeah, go ahead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, if you're not..."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 29, "text": "That's good.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If you're not going to have a harmonic resolution, there's no such thing as a melodic resolution. I mean, resolutions are harmonic; they're not melodic. You can put any note with a consonant chord and"}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 30, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Does that make..."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 31, "text": "Yeah. Yeah, that's great. Thank you for - I didn't think of it that way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...What I'm saying - yeah."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 32, "text": "Thank you very much", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 33, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 34, "text": "I should say that that song is sung very well by Tom Wopat in \"Sondheim On Sondheim.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 35, "text": "Now, you've also mentioned that there was a Bernard Herrmann influence on \"Sweeney Todd.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, very scary."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 36, "text": "So let's get back to \"Merrily We Roll Along\" a second. It was a flop. It didn't - how many performances?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- I wasn't 24 bars into the opening number when he said, oh, Bernard Herrmann. So it was very clear that what I was doing was channeling Herrmann. And for the listeners who don't know, Bernard Herrman"}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 37, "text": "Ugh. It...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nine."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 38, "text": "Sixteen. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, wait a minute. That's - sorry, it was 16."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 39, "text": "It kills me because it was such a good show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sorry. Sorry. Sorry."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 40, "text": "And it's been revived several times. So people...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was. Well, it..."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 41, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, ah..."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 42, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...But George and I worked on it. George Furth, who wrote the book, and I after the Broadway show - which was partly our fault, but also partly fault of the production - the idea of the show was to go"}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 43, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded with Stephen Sondheim in 2010 in celebration of his 80th birthday. Sunday is his 90th birthday. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But such a betrayer and such a - compromised all his principles and his talent. And by going backwards in time, you gradually strip away - it's like the reverse of \"The Picture Of Dorian Gray.\" The po"}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 44, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Stephen Sondheim's 90th birthday is Sunday. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with him in 2010 on the occasion of his 80th birthday. Sondheim got his start on Broadway writing lyrics for \"West Side Story.\" The music was composed by Leonard Bernstein. The current revival of \"West Side Story\" has been suspended, along with all other Broadway shows, because of the pandemic. Let's hear a song from the original Broadway cast recording of \"West Side Story.\" This is Larry Kert in the role of Tony singing \"Something's Coming.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Mrs. Lovett) Since marine doesn't appeal to you..."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 45, "text": "Let's get back to this idea of opening doors. What were some of the first doors you knocked on before actually getting to Broadway and writing lyrics for \"West Side Story?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Tony, singing) Could be. Who knows? There's something due any day. I will know right away, soon as it shows. It may come cannonballing down through the sky, gleam in its eye, bright as a rose. Who"}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 46, "text": "Did you learn anything working with Bernstein and watching him work?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, you know, he wanted to show me that he knew a lot about music, is what it was. And he might've been right, but I don't think he was. And I played for a number of producers and directors and, g"}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 47, "text": "Now, you've talked about George Gershwin and Harold Arlen as great influences on you, and they were both very influenced by jazz. Did you listen to much jazz or pop when you were in your formative years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure, a great deal. Yes. Mainly, I learned something about courage. I learned - Lenny was never afraid to make big mistakes. He was never afraid to fall off the top rung of the ladder. And I learn"}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 48, "text": "Was there any pop music that did make a big impression on you when you were young?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nope. Nope, I didn't, and I'm not very influenced by jazz. First of all, the whole idea of jazz is improvisation and instrumentalists, and because I'm only a piano player and have never played in a ba"}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 49, "text": "Now, another question about your formative years. You went to a Quaker school, but you also went to the New York Military Academy and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you see, I wasn't exposed to a lot of pop music, you know. I didn't - there was - there were not a lot of records in the house. And I was - you know, when I listened to radio, it wasn't to music"}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 50, "text": "I can't imagine you being a cadet. And I know there's also an emphasis on athletics at the school. I went on the website, and it said all cadets must participate in sports throughout the year. So what was it like for you to be...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that was earlier."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 51, "text": "Oh, OK", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I - first of all, I went when I was 10 years old and..."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 52, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I - first of all, I went when I was 10 years old and..."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 53, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ten and 11 years old."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 54, "text": "You know, that actually really fits into what you were talking about wanting rules and structure in music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Only those two years. So I think you may have the wrong picture of me. And it was also because my parents had just divorced, and military school was always considered a place to send kids of divorced "}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 55, "text": "Right. Right. Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Order out of chaos. Order out of chaos. That's why I like crossword puzzles - order out of chaos."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 56, "text": "To create order in...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that's what art's about, anyway. I think that's why people make art."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 57, "text": "...A world that's chaotic", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To - out of chaos, yeah."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 58, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To - out of chaos, yeah."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 59, "text": "My guest is Stephen Sondheim. We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The world has always been chaotic. Life is unpredictable. It is - there is no form. And making forms gives you solidity. I think that's why people paint paintings and take photographs and write music "}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 60, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with Stephen Sondheim in 2010 on the occasion of his 80th birthday. He turns 90 on Sunday. (SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The world has always been chaotic. Life is unpredictable. It is - there is no form. And making forms gives you solidity. I think that's why people paint paintings and take photographs and write music "}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 61, "text": "So let's get to some more music. There's a song I want to play from something that you wrote for television. And it's called \"Evening Primrose.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The world has always been chaotic. Life is unpredictable. It is - there is no form. And making forms gives you solidity. I think that's why people paint paintings and take photographs and write music "}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 62, "text": "That's the name of the show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's the name of the show. Just for the listener..."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 63, "text": "No, no, no. That's not the name of the song. It's the name of the show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For the listener, that's not the name of the song."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 64, "text": "Thank you for listening that carefully", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know. Your sentence made it seem as if..."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 65, "text": ". OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know. Your sentence made it seem as if..."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 66, "text": "It sure is. So the show is called \"Evening Primrose,\" and it was a musical for an ABC series called \"Stage 67.\" And it starred Anthony Perkins, who's a wonderful singer. I mean, he'd been in some musicals before, including Frank Loesser's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's what I do for a living."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 67, "text": "\"Greenwillow,\" yeah, where - and he also had some pop jazz recordings that he made...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Greenwillow.\""}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 68, "text": "...That are quite good. And this was made six years after \"Psycho,\" just to put it into context. So before we actually talk more about it, let's hear one of the songs. And this is a song that's also done in the revue \"Sondheim On Sondheim.\" It's a beautiful song called \"Take Me To The World.\" In the show, Anthony Perkins plays a poet who finds the world kind of cold and mean. And so he goes to a department store and decides to hide out there. I mean, after all, they have everything that you need. There's, like, a bedroom department and a kitchen department. There's clothes. And while hiding out there, he meets this whole community of people who actually live there and come out at night when the employees go home. And he falls in love with this beautiful, young girl who's trapped there because the people won't let her leave. And she is dying to go out and see the world. He's, at the same time, disillusioned with the world. So I'm going to play the duet part that they sing in which first, he sings about how disillusioned he is with the world, and then he agrees to show her the world. And the female singer here - is her name Charmian Carr? Am I...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 69, "text": "...Pronouncing that correctly?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's correct."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 70, "text": "OK. So this is Stephen Sondheim's song \"Take Me To The World.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's correct."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 71, "text": "That was \"Take Me To The World\" by my guest, Stephen Sondheim, from his musical \"Evening Primrose,\" which - I should say there's a - I have a bootleg copy of this. But there's a real, genuine legit DVD that's coming out, so - which I highly recommend.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Charles Snell and Ella Harkins, singing) We shall have the world forever for our own."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 72, "text": "Yeah. So who is Charmian Carr, who we just heard?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Any minute."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 73, "text": "Oh. Well, can we talk a little bit about your process of songwriting? I know the first thing that comes for you is the story. You only write songs in the context of character and story. But I know this is probably the most often-asked question of any songwriter, and they hate to answer it because it's so corny. But really, when you're writing music and lyrics yourself, which comes first for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Charmian Carr - it's just - for listeners who may not know, might be interested to know - that she was - she played Liesl in the movie of \"Sound Of Music.\" And I think she did one thing after that, an"}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 74, "text": "When you're writing at the piano, are you recording what you're playing, or are you just...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's no first. Sometimes, you get a melodic idea. I sometimes like to, by myself, improvise the piano, sometimes with the script propped up because I always write after the librettist has started t"}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 75, "text": "...Like, notating it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Never, never."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 76, "text": "Now, you - when you're working with rhyme, what's your process for figuring out options for rhyming words?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just notating - notating. There's - the process of putting something down on paper is very important, I think, in keeping the stuff alive in your head. Just you have to make - even if you're just impr"}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 77, "text": "The more you write do you feel like you've used up rhymes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What you - you use rhyming dictionary is what you do. And the important thing is to get the thought first, to know what you want to say and then how you want to phrase what you want to say. And then a"}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 78, "text": "Like, you can't use a rhyme you've already used, so the choices are narrower?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 79, "text": "Give me an example of the kind of trick rhyme you're talking about.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Now, that's certainly true of any kind of trick or..."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 80, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, goodness. I don't know - soul-stirring and bolstering in \"Follies,\" you know? If you use that once, you don't use it again. Loddy doddy and nobody. You don't use that more than once. Or if you do,"}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 81, "text": "My guest is Stephen Sondheim. We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I've probably used it more than once. But I don't think so. So that's what I mean, whereas, yeah, of course, you're always going to end up rhyming day and may and say over and over and over and ov"}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 82, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with Stephen Sondheim in 2010 on the occasion of his 80th birthday. He turns 90 on Sunday.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I've probably used it more than once. But I don't think so. So that's what I mean, whereas, yeah, of course, you're always going to end up rhyming day and may and say over and over and over and ov"}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 83, "text": "In the show \"Sondheim On Sondheim,\" the song \"Finishing The Hat\" from \"Sunday In The Park With George\" is one of the songs that's performed. And about that song, you say that it's about what it's like to come out of the process of making art, to be done with something and then reenter the world. And I just wonder what it's like for you when you finish with a project, and you're out of that art that you've been making, and you're - both feet back in the real world, is the real world, like, a comfortable or an uncomfortable place for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I've probably used it more than once. But I don't think so. So that's what I mean, whereas, yeah, of course, you're always going to end up rhyming day and may and say over and over and over and ov"}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 84, "text": "I want to end with a song. And I'm going to give you the choice of which one we're going to do", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's not quite the analogy. That's not really exactly what the song's about. Song's about the actual creation. It's about the creative moment. It's about when you are painting a painting or when you"}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 85, "text": ", OK? One is a kind of famous one, \"Losing My Mind\" from \"Follies,\" sung by Dorothy Collins. And the other is a song from your most recent show, \"Road Show,\" formerly known as \"Bounce,\" formerly known as \"Wise Guys.\" And the song is \"The Best Thing That Ever Has Happened.\" So which would you prefer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's not quite the analogy. That's not really exactly what the song's about. Song's about the actual creation. It's about the creative moment. It's about when you are painting a painting or when you"}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 86, "text": "Would you put it in context for us? Tell us where it comes in in the show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's hard to pick. I think I prefer \"Best Thing That Ever Has Happened\" because it's less familiar to the listeners to this program than \"Losing My Mind,\" which has had a life outside of outside of \"F"}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 87, "text": "And something about the writing of the song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 88, "text": "Stephen Sondheim, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, in the first version of it, which was in the version of the show called \"Bounce,\" it was between one of the - the two leading characters are brothers, Wilson and Addison Mizner. And Wilson"}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 89, "text": "And happy 80th - happy belated 80th birthday.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 90, "text": "My interview with Stephen Sondheim was recorded in 2010 on the occasion of his 80th birthday. He turns 90 on Sunday. All of us at FRESH AIR wish him a happy birthday and good health. For Monday's FRESH AIR, we're planning to talk with comic and actor Marc Maron, who has a new Netflix standup special called \"End Times Fun.\" And he came up with that title before the coronavirus. I'm Terry Gross. Stay well.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "818287076", "date": "2020-03-20", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 1)", "question_index": 91, "text": "UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As Hollis, singing) First, there's cocktails at the Cosdens. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As Addison) Oh, Jesus. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As Hollis, singing) Hon, we've got fish to fry. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As Addison) Why don't you do this one without me, huh? UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As Hollis, singing) Then there's dinner at the Dodges, the reception at the Roosevelts. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As Addison, singing) I think I'm going to die. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As Hollis, singing) And every party filled with millionaires who want to build the biggest villa since the days of ancient Rome. So what do you say we just stay home? UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As Addison, singing) You are the best thing that ever has happened to me. You are. OK then, one of the best things that's happened to me. They say we all find love. I never bought it. I never thought it would happen to me. Who could foresee? You are the god-damnedest thing that has happened to me ever. When I have this much happiness happen to me? Never. I can't believe my luck. And all I can do is be the best thing that's happened to you. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As Hollis, singing) So what do you say we just stay home? What do you say we just go out on the boat and get smashed and make love on the beach and stare up at the moon? UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As Addison) Hollie. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As Hollis, singing) You might just be the best thing that has happened to me so far. Of course, not much ever really has happened to me so far. I didn't much like love. I always fought it. I never thought it would happen like this. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As Addison, singing) Give us a kiss. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1 AND UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As Hollis and Addison, singing) We may just be the best thing that has happened us... UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As Addison, singing) ...Kiddo. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As Hollis, singing) ...Partner. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1 AND UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As Hollis and Addison, singing) Another moment like this may not happen to us... UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As Addison, singing) ...Partner. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As Hollis, singing) ...Lover. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1 AND UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As Hollis and Addison, singing) When all is said and done, I have to agree you are the best thing that's happened to me. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As Hollis, singing) Who knew? UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As Addison, singing) Who dreamed? UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1 AND UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As Hollis and Addison, singing) Beats me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "820105474", "date": "2020-03-25", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "Michael Pollan Explains Caffeine Cravings (And Why You Don't Have To Quit)", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Most of our team is working at home now, including me, so occasionally we're going to need a day to catch up, and today is one of those days. So today we're going to replay one of our favorite and most popular recent interviews. It's about caffeine. After trying psychedelic drugs for research on his book \"How To Change Your Mind: What The Science Of Psychedelics Teaches Us About Consciousness, Dying, Addiction, Depression And Transcendence,\" my guest Michael Pollan gave up caffeine as part of his research for his new audiobook \"Caffeine: How Coffee And Tea Created The Modern World.\" If you're a coffee drinker, you won't be surprised to hear how hard it was for Pollan to give it up. His new book is about how caffeine affects the mind and body, why we feel so bad when we stop drinking it, how caffeine benefits the plants that produce it and how coffee and tea's spread around the world was intertwined with imperialism and slavery. Pollan has written many books about the impact of food on our bodies and how the methods we use to grow food and raise livestock affect the environment. His new audiobook \"Caffeine\" is an audible original.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "820105474", "date": "2020-03-25", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "Michael Pollan Explains Caffeine Cravings (And Why You Don't Have To Quit)", "question_index": 1, "text": "Michael Pollan, welcome back to FRESH AIR. When we last left off...", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "820105474", "date": "2020-03-25", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "Michael Pollan Explains Caffeine Cravings (And Why You Don't Have To Quit)", "question_index": 2, "text": "...You had just finished your exploration of psychedelic drugs, and it was an exploration conducted through research books as well as through taking the drugs. So do you see a connection between your exploration of psychedelic drugs and their impact on - you know, on the mind and body and caffeine?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "820105474", "date": "2020-03-25", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "Michael Pollan Explains Caffeine Cravings (And Why You Don't Have To Quit)", "question_index": 3, "text": "But, you know, we think of caffeine as a stimulant that helps you stay awake or wake up. Most people don't think of it as a psychoactive drug, a drug that affects consciousness or mood or behavior. So in what sense is caffeine a psychoactive drug?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, absolutely. This is kind of a follow-on. You know, my exploration of psychedelics got me very interested in consciousness and, you know, whether there is just one form of normal everyday conscio"}
{"id": "820105474", "date": "2020-03-25", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "Michael Pollan Explains Caffeine Cravings (And Why You Don't Have To Quit)", "question_index": 4, "text": "Wow. So you tried to learn about the effects of caffeine by giving it up and seeing what impact it had to basically go into caffeine withdrawal. Why did you decide to give it up? Who convinced you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it encourages a certain kind of consciousness. It makes us more focused. We can see - you know, I mean, if you think about consciousness as having different degrees of narrowness or focus versus"}
{"id": "820105474", "date": "2020-03-25", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "Michael Pollan Explains Caffeine Cravings (And Why You Don't Have To Quit)", "question_index": 5, "text": "So how were you transformed when you went off caffeine cold turkey?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there was a researcher named Roland Griffiths who I actually met doing my research on psychedelics. He's a preeminent psychedelic researcher at Johns Hopkins, but he's also, as it turns out, the"}
{"id": "820105474", "date": "2020-03-25", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "Michael Pollan Explains Caffeine Cravings (And Why You Don't Have To Quit)", "question_index": 6, "text": "Was your sleep changed when you gave up caffeine?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I was speaking in another language, which never goes that well or that smoothly. And that sense of transparency was lost. I got over it, eventually, and I wrote a big chunk of the piece without the "}
{"id": "820105474", "date": "2020-03-25", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "Michael Pollan Explains Caffeine Cravings (And Why You Don't Have To Quit)", "question_index": 7, "text": "Ways you didn't fully understand, like what?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was amazing. I was sleeping like a teenager again. I would pop off and just sleep through the night, which I don't do that often. And I had some great sleeps. And I guess that was the big compensat"}
{"id": "820105474", "date": "2020-03-25", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "Michael Pollan Explains Caffeine Cravings (And Why You Don't Have To Quit)", "question_index": 8, "text": "You said that if you're a coffee drinker, you go through a withdrawal every night, and then when you wake up in the morning, the coffee arrives just in time to prevent the withdrawal symptoms from getting worse. So really? You go through withdrawal that quickly?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I always figured, if I can have a - oh, let's say I decide to, you know, go crazy and have an espresso after dinner and - oh, gee, I can fall asleep. I slept that night. So maybe it's not a prob"}
{"id": "820105474", "date": "2020-03-25", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "Michael Pollan Explains Caffeine Cravings (And Why You Don't Have To Quit)", "question_index": 9, "text": "How often does coffee want you to have it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's beginning when you wake up. I mean, you haven't had coffee since sometime - or tea since sometime the day before. And..."}
{"id": "820105474", "date": "2020-03-25", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "Michael Pollan Explains Caffeine Cravings (And Why You Don't Have To Quit)", "question_index": 10, "text": "Is there a relatively simple, not terribly sciencey (ph) way of describing...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", human conversation until I have my cup of coffee, they're beginning to go through that withdrawal. They're starting to feel a little off, that muzziness is coming in. Maybe they have a headache. May"}
{"id": "820105474", "date": "2020-03-25", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "Michael Pollan Explains Caffeine Cravings (And Why You Don't Have To Quit)", "question_index": 11, "text": "...How caffeine operates in the brain to give us the wakefulness...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "820105474", "date": "2020-03-25", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "Michael Pollan Explains Caffeine Cravings (And Why You Don't Have To Quit)", "question_index": 12, "text": "...The hit that it gives us and also keep us awake?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "820105474", "date": "2020-03-25", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "Michael Pollan Explains Caffeine Cravings (And Why You Don't Have To Quit)", "question_index": 13, "text": "All right. Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk more about caffeine and coffee and tea. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Michael Pollan, and his new book is really an audiobook. It's an Audible Original. It's called \"Caffeine: How Coffee And Tea Created The Modern World.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's pretty simple. We have a neurotransmitter called adenosine, or adenosine, that over the course of the day, levels of it rise, and its job is to gradually make us tired, create what's called"}
{"id": "820105474", "date": "2020-03-25", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "Michael Pollan Explains Caffeine Cravings (And Why You Don't Have To Quit)", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded in February with Michael Pollan about his new audiobook \"Caffeine.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's pretty simple. We have a neurotransmitter called adenosine, or adenosine, that over the course of the day, levels of it rise, and its job is to gradually make us tired, create what's called"}
{"id": "820105474", "date": "2020-03-25", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "Michael Pollan Explains Caffeine Cravings (And Why You Don't Have To Quit)", "question_index": 15, "text": "You point out that coffee is bound up with the sins of slavery and imperialism.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's pretty simple. We have a neurotransmitter called adenosine, or adenosine, that over the course of the day, levels of it rise, and its job is to gradually make us tired, create what's called"}
{"id": "820105474", "date": "2020-03-25", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "Michael Pollan Explains Caffeine Cravings (And Why You Don't Have To Quit)", "question_index": 16, "text": "So was the goal just to improve the balance of trade payments? Was the goal an economic one? Or did they intend to actually addict people in China?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, look - there's a really ugly history behind both of them. You know, the early coffee plantations in Brazil were all - the workers were slaves. But even later, when you have post-slavery "}
{"id": "820105474", "date": "2020-03-25", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "Michael Pollan Explains Caffeine Cravings (And Why You Don't Have To Quit)", "question_index": 17, "text": "As you point out, there was a time when most Americans drank coffee that came in a can or instant coffee that came in a jar, which seldom tasted anything like coffee", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know it was their intention to addict, but that was certainly the effect. Yeah, they just needed a product to sell in China. And even though the Chinese forbade it, they just smuggled it in an"}
{"id": "820105474", "date": "2020-03-25", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "Michael Pollan Explains Caffeine Cravings (And Why You Don't Have To Quit)", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know it was their intention to addict, but that was certainly the effect. Yeah, they just needed a product to sell in China. And even though the Chinese forbade it, they just smuggled it in an"}
{"id": "820105474", "date": "2020-03-25", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "Michael Pollan Explains Caffeine Cravings (And Why You Don't Have To Quit)", "question_index": 19, "text": "So how did we get from, you know, ground coffee in a can to the kind of deluxe coffee that so many people buy now? I don't remember, when I was growing up, having that option.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's for sure."}
{"id": "820105474", "date": "2020-03-25", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "Michael Pollan Explains Caffeine Cravings (And Why You Don't Have To Quit)", "question_index": 20, "text": "We're listening back to the interview with Michael Pollan that we recorded last month. His new audiobook is called \"Caffeine.\" After we take a short break, we'll talk about how the caffeine affected his mind and body when he started drinking coffee again after having given it up for months as part of his research. And jazz critic Kevin Whitehead will review a new album by guitarist Jeff Parker. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There are two big strains of coffee plants. One is robusta. As its name suggests, it's very robust, easier to grow, less touchy as a plant. But it produces very bitter coffee and - high caffeine, but "}
{"id": "820105474", "date": "2020-03-25", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "Michael Pollan Explains Caffeine Cravings (And Why You Don't Have To Quit)", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded last month with Michael Pollan about his new audiobook \"Caffeine: How Coffee And Tea Created The Modern World.\" It's about how caffeine affects the mind and body and about how coffee and tea became popular around the world. Caffeine is the world's most widely consumed psychoactive drug. Pollan's previous book \"How To Change Your Mind\" was about how psychedelic drugs alter consciousness and how they're now being used experimentally to treat addiction, depression and help the terminally ill face death. Pollan describes himself as writing about the places where culture and nature intersect - on our plates, in our farms and gardens and in our minds.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) It's early in the morning, about a quarter till 3. I'm sitting here talking with my baby over cigarettes and coffee, yeah. And to tell you that, darling, I've been so satisfied..."}
{"id": "820105474", "date": "2020-03-25", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "Michael Pollan Explains Caffeine Cravings (And Why You Don't Have To Quit)", "question_index": 22, "text": "You visited a coffee plantation in Colombia. What's the work like? Like, you picked coffee beans. What do you have to do to pick coffee beans? What's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) It's early in the morning, about a quarter till 3. I'm sitting here talking with my baby over cigarettes and coffee, yeah. And to tell you that, darling, I've been so satisfied..."}
{"id": "820105474", "date": "2020-03-25", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "Michael Pollan Explains Caffeine Cravings (And Why You Don't Have To Quit)", "question_index": 23, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "820105474", "date": "2020-03-25", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "Michael Pollan Explains Caffeine Cravings (And Why You Don't Have To Quit)", "question_index": 24, "text": "When we started our interview, you were telling us how you gave up coffee cold turkey when you were writing your book \"Caffeine\" because you wanted to know what's it like - what impact does caffeine have on you and, to find out, you stopped it to see what the difference was. And to see how addictive it was, you did it cold turkey, so you could get the full force of ending your addiction.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". This wasn't like I went undercover and I was - I had this job. But I wanted to see how it was grown. And I went to this finca outside of Medellin and Columbia and spent a day with the coffee farmers"}
{"id": "820105474", "date": "2020-03-25", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "Michael Pollan Explains Caffeine Cravings (And Why You Don't Have To Quit)", "question_index": 25, "text": "And then after how many months you decided to start drinking?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "820105474", "date": "2020-03-25", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "Michael Pollan Explains Caffeine Cravings (And Why You Don't Have To Quit)", "question_index": 26, "text": "And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "After three months, yeah."}
{"id": "820105474", "date": "2020-03-25", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "Michael Pollan Explains Caffeine Cravings (And Why You Don't Have To Quit)", "question_index": 27, "text": "And when you started drinking it again, was that still part of the experiment, or just 'cause...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was three months on herbal tea."}
{"id": "820105474", "date": "2020-03-25", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "Michael Pollan Explains Caffeine Cravings (And Why You Don't Have To Quit)", "question_index": 28, "text": "...You couldn't bear to live without it anymore?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "820105474", "date": "2020-03-25", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "Michael Pollan Explains Caffeine Cravings (And Why You Don't Have To Quit)", "question_index": 29, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no. No, it was part of the experiment. I went as long as I could. But I knew before I finished the book that I would want to describe, you know, getting back on caffeine. I fully intended to get b"}
{"id": "820105474", "date": "2020-03-25", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "Michael Pollan Explains Caffeine Cravings (And Why You Don't Have To Quit)", "question_index": 30, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But it's been cleared of that, too. So there isn't a good reason not to drink it unless you have a problem with it - it makes you jittery, or, you know, your doctors told you not to. So I fully intend"}
{"id": "820105474", "date": "2020-03-25", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "Michael Pollan Explains Caffeine Cravings (And Why You Don't Have To Quit)", "question_index": 31, "text": "So what is caffeine doing for you now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "that - you know, these things come up on your computer every day, and you never have time to deal with them. Well, I dealt with them. And then I turned to my closet, and I saw that the pile of sweater"}
{"id": "820105474", "date": "2020-03-25", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "Michael Pollan Explains Caffeine Cravings (And Why You Don't Have To Quit)", "question_index": 32, "text": "So some people say, in comparing coffee and tea, that coffee is such an upper that it gets you to lose focus, whereas tea gets you to increase focus. What do you think?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "was so great that it's almost worth the work."}
{"id": "820105474", "date": "2020-03-25", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "Michael Pollan Explains Caffeine Cravings (And Why You Don't Have To Quit)", "question_index": 33, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. My guest is Michael Pollan, and his new book is called \"Caffeine: How Coffee And Tea Created The Modern World.\" And it's not a print book; it's an audiobook. It's an Audible Original. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But, you know, green tea is pretty good, too. I mean, it's much more low-level. So I just think whatever the drink, we kind of find a sweet spot for how caffeinated we want to be for whatever we're do"}
{"id": "820105474", "date": "2020-03-25", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "Michael Pollan Explains Caffeine Cravings (And Why You Don't Have To Quit)", "question_index": 34, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded in February with Michael Pollan about his new audiobook \"Caffeine.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But, you know, green tea is pretty good, too. I mean, it's much more low-level. So I just think whatever the drink, we kind of find a sweet spot for how caffeinated we want to be for whatever we're do"}
{"id": "820105474", "date": "2020-03-25", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "Michael Pollan Explains Caffeine Cravings (And Why You Don't Have To Quit)", "question_index": 35, "text": "OK, so enough about coffee for right now. Tell us what's happening with psychedelics. Are...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But, you know, green tea is pretty good, too. I mean, it's much more low-level. So I just think whatever the drink, we kind of find a sweet spot for how caffeinated we want to be for whatever we're do"}
{"id": "820105474", "date": "2020-03-25", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "Michael Pollan Explains Caffeine Cravings (And Why You Don't Have To Quit)", "question_index": 36, "text": "Are you still - and I should explain for anyone tuning in. My guest is Michael Pollan, and his new book is about caffeine, but his previous book was about the history of psychedelic drugs and new ways that they're being used in scientific research, including working with the terminally ill, to help them kind of reconcile impending death. So I'm wondering if you're still, you know, using them for personal benefit or research purposes, however you'd want to describe it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But, you know, green tea is pretty good, too. I mean, it's much more low-level. So I just think whatever the drink, we kind of find a sweet spot for how caffeinated we want to be for whatever we're do"}
{"id": "820105474", "date": "2020-03-25", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "Michael Pollan Explains Caffeine Cravings (And Why You Don't Have To Quit)", "question_index": 37, "text": "Yeah, you were. I know.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So I'm following the field closely. I'm not using them now. You know, I became so - I was so public about what is..."}
{"id": "820105474", "date": "2020-03-25", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "Michael Pollan Explains Caffeine Cravings (And Why You Don't Have To Quit)", "question_index": 38, "text": "I also would like to know what your latest diet is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know, a crime. And so that I'm very careful not to right now since I've told the world that, you know, I did use them. And it was about the book project. If they were legal now, I think I would"}
{"id": "820105474", "date": "2020-03-25", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "Michael Pollan Explains Caffeine Cravings (And Why You Don't Have To Quit)", "question_index": 39, "text": "And I don't mean weight loss diet, for our listeners who aren't familiar with Michael Pollan. I mean, are you eating meat, fish?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "820105474", "date": "2020-03-25", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "Michael Pollan Explains Caffeine Cravings (And Why You Don't Have To Quit)", "question_index": 40, "text": "And do you miss what you've given up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "after that fast will be as profound as that first cup of coffee. So, you know, I'm still following my seven-word haiku, you know - eat food, not too much, mostly plants. But the mostly has gotten more"}
{"id": "820105474", "date": "2020-03-25", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "Michael Pollan Explains Caffeine Cravings (And Why You Don't Have To Quit)", "question_index": 41, "text": "Do you ever - have you ever eaten insects for protein? And would you ever do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not as much as I thought. You know, if I were - you know, if I were - no, I actually don't. Every now and then, you know, I'll look over at someone I'm eating with, at their plate and wonder what that"}
{"id": "820105474", "date": "2020-03-25", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "Michael Pollan Explains Caffeine Cravings (And Why You Don't Have To Quit)", "question_index": 42, "text": "That makes so much sense. Is anybody trying that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have. You know, in Mexico, on tacos, they have, you know, crispy little crickets or whatever it is. And then I was at some - I've been at some high-end restaurants that serve ants and things like th"}
{"id": "820105474", "date": "2020-03-25", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "Michael Pollan Explains Caffeine Cravings (And Why You Don't Have To Quit)", "question_index": 43, "text": "Michael Pollan, great to have you back on FRESH AIR. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. I ran into a farmer in Milwaukee who was doing this indoor aquaculture and he had figured out a way to grow soldier fly larva on compost that he was taking from the city, and then he would "}
{"id": "820105474", "date": "2020-03-25", "guest": "Michael Pollan", "title": "Michael Pollan Explains Caffeine Cravings (And Why You Don't Have To Quit)", "question_index": 44, "text": "Michael Pollan's new audiobook is called \"Caffeine: How Coffee And Tea Created The Modern World.\" It's an Audible Original. Our interview was recorded in February. After we take a short break, jazz critic Kevin Whitehead will review a new album by guitarist Jeff Parker that Kevin describes as genre-bridging. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Always a pleasure, Terry. Thanks a lot."}
{"id": "821934570", "date": "2020-03-26", "guest": "Benjamin Wittes", "title": "Trump Has Declared 'War' On The Presidency, Author Says", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're going to talk about how Trump has changed the presidency and how he's continuing to change it during the pandemic. My guest Benjamin Wittes is the co-author, along with Susan Hennessey, of the new book \"Unmaking The Presidency: Donald Trump's War On The World's Most Powerful Office.\" Wittes co-founded and is editor-in-chief of Lawfare blog, a self-described non-partisan site devoted to discussion of hard national security choices. He's a contributing writer at The Atlantic and a former editorial writer at The Washington Post. He's also the co-author of the 2015 book \"The Future Of Violence: Robots And Germs, Hackers And Drones - Confronting A New Age Of Threat.\" Ben Wittes, welcome to FRESH AIR. I hope you're feeling well today.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "821934570", "date": "2020-03-26", "guest": "Benjamin Wittes", "title": "Trump Has Declared 'War' On The Presidency, Author Says", "question_index": 1, "text": "I am, too. Thank you for asking. So when you wrote your new book, you thought the big unanswered question was going to be the outcome of impeachment. You had no idea there was a virus on the way. Has the virus changed or deepened your concerns about President Trump?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. I'm well, and I hope you are as well."}
{"id": "821934570", "date": "2020-03-26", "guest": "Benjamin Wittes", "title": "Trump Has Declared 'War' On The Presidency, Author Says", "question_index": 2, "text": "So you describe President Trump as running a very expressive, a very personal presidency. And by that, you don't mean that he is, you know, really personable to people, that he expresses himself well. I want you to explain what you do mean by a personal and expressive presidency.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, it has very much deepened the anxieties that led us to write the book. And so while the words coronavirus never appear in the book, the behaviors that the president is engaged in in deal"}
{"id": "821934570", "date": "2020-03-26", "guest": "Benjamin Wittes", "title": "Trump Has Declared 'War' On The Presidency, Author Says", "question_index": 3, "text": "So you say, like, he's not interested in hearing information that may contradict what it is that he just personally wants to do. The other day at one of his press conferences, when asked if he had consulted previous presidents about how they've handled similar situations, he brushed it off and said that he - basically, that he didn't think it was necessary. He had great people on his team, and he wasn't going to consult other presidents. Is that the kind of thing you're thinking of, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So, you know, the idea of a personal presidency is to distinguish from what we might call the process presidency, right? So the - as the executive branch grew all through the 20th century, you h"}
{"id": "821934570", "date": "2020-03-26", "guest": "Benjamin Wittes", "title": "Trump Has Declared 'War' On The Presidency, Author Says", "question_index": 4, "text": "I think one of the things that has been concerning a lot of Americans is when President Trump says things - for instance, at his coronavirus press conferences - that aren't true about the virus, about how to behave during the virus. And then one of the medical experts kind of underplays that or, you know, like, walks it back. And I think a lot of people are wondering when the president says something using all the power of his podium and says things that aren't true and consistently - like, and frequently does that, what power does anyone have to prevent that from happening again? And just looking at it constitutionally, you say that when we ask about President Trump, can he do that, the answer is usually yes. There's nothing written. There's nothing in the law. There's nothing in the Constitution that says he can't. So let's take the example of the president saying things at the podium about the virus that are untrue. What is there to stop him from repeating things like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so that is - you know, this sort of brings me to the expressive dimensions of the office. The presidency has expressive components, right? It's an incredible platform. Theodore Roosevelt famousl"}
{"id": "821934570", "date": "2020-03-26", "guest": "Benjamin Wittes", "title": "Trump Has Declared 'War' On The Presidency, Author Says", "question_index": 5, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Ben Wittes. He's co-author of the new book \"Unmaking The Presidency: Donald Trump's War On The World's Most Powerful Office.\" He's also co-founder of Lawfare blog. We'll be right back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's an excellent question. The short answer is there is nothing, and the traditional expectations of what would inhibit that are not obviously working. So the first component that is supposed to in"}
{"id": "821934570", "date": "2020-03-26", "guest": "Benjamin Wittes", "title": "Trump Has Declared 'War' On The Presidency, Author Says", "question_index": 6, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Benjamin Wittes, co-author with Susan Hennessey of the new book \"Unmaking The Presidency: Donald Trump's War On The World's Most Powerful Office.\" Wittes is also the co-founder of Lawfare blog, which is devoted to discussion of hard national security choices. The president is still attacking the media as fake news, and Americans are tuning to cable news and tuning to the radio and reading newspapers to try to understand what's going on with the virus and how they're supposed to behave to keep safe or how they're supposed to take care of their loved ones who are ill. And I guess as somebody who's involved with monitoring national security issues, it seems to me the virus is a national security issue because the security of all Americans is at stake here. So what do you think about in terms of national security when you hear the president continuing to attack the media as fake news? What do you think about when you hear that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's an excellent question. The short answer is there is nothing, and the traditional expectations of what would inhibit that are not obviously working. So the first component that is supposed to in"}
{"id": "821934570", "date": "2020-03-26", "guest": "Benjamin Wittes", "title": "Trump Has Declared 'War' On The Presidency, Author Says", "question_index": 7, "text": "So I want to get back to something that you say in the book, which is often what people say about an action President Trump has taken - when they say, can he do that, you say, typically, yes, he can; there's no law, there's no thing in the Constitution that says he can't. So when he attacks intelligence agencies who are giving him information that is the best information they could get, when he attacks the FBI when they give him information that's the best information they can get, when he discredits them, is there anything in the law, is there anything in the Constitution that prevents a president from preventing the flow of important information and discredits that information, when a president attacks his own intelligence agencies and the leaders of those agencies?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So this is the most destructive thing you can do in the context of a virus. If you talk to public health people about management of these crises, one of the things that they will tell you is th"}
{"id": "821934570", "date": "2020-03-26", "guest": "Benjamin Wittes", "title": "Trump Has Declared 'War' On The Presidency, Author Says", "question_index": 8, "text": "So, you know, your book \"Unmaking The Presidency\" is about the ways in which Trump has changed the presidency into an office that is - instead of being an executive office, the CEO of all the agencies coordinating all the agencies, he's made the office about himself and the things he wants, often ignoring what the agencies tell him. And you're thinking about the 2020 election and whether voters will say, yes, that's the kind of presidency we want to continue or, no, we reject that form of presidency. Now it seems the whole election is on shaky ground right now because if the virus continues, then people won't want to go to the polls, for obvious reasons. A lot of states are not equipped for any kind of long-distance voting by mail or any other form. Some people are wondering, well, can the 2020 presidential election be postponed in the way that some primaries are being postponed? So based on all your knowledge of the Constitution and law and presidential law, what do we know about what happens to a presidential election in a crisis like this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So this is, I think, one of the core themes of the book. You know, when we think in American history about abuse of presidential power and about, you know, threats of tyranny, we generally thin"}
{"id": "821934570", "date": "2020-03-26", "guest": "Benjamin Wittes", "title": "Trump Has Declared 'War' On The Presidency, Author Says", "question_index": 9, "text": "So some primaries have already been postponed. Who knows what's going to happen? Can you envision the possibility of primaries being canceled? Would that be legal? What if primaries happen but most people can't really vote? I mean, how can we be confident about the primary?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The answer is it cannot really be postponed, and there are two reasons for that. The first is that there's a federal law that's specifies the date on which it has to take place. And so, you know, that"}
{"id": "821934570", "date": "2020-03-26", "guest": "Benjamin Wittes", "title": "Trump Has Declared 'War' On The Presidency, Author Says", "question_index": 10, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Ben Wittes. He's co-author with Susan Hennessey of the new book \"Unmaking The Presidency: Donald Trump's War On The World's Most Powerful Office.\" He's also the co-founder of Lawfare blog, which is devoted to discussion of hard national security choices. We'll be right back after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So the good news on - with respect to the primaries, is that their - the stakes are relatively low in the sense that the - there is a presumptive Democratic nominee at this point, although many"}
{"id": "821934570", "date": "2020-03-26", "guest": "Benjamin Wittes", "title": "Trump Has Declared 'War' On The Presidency, Author Says", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Ben Wittes, co-author of the new book \"Unmaking The Presidency: Donald Trump's War On The World's Most Powerful Office.\" He's also co-founder of Lawfare blog, which is devoted to discussion of hard national security choices. We recorded this interview on Tuesday. I recorded this from my home, and Ben Wittes was in his home. So you know, a theme through your book that we've talked about during this interview is when people ask about President Trump - can he really do that? - the answer is often yes, he can because there's no law and nothing in the Constitution that says he can't. Did the Founding Fathers want it that way? - you know, 'cause on the one hand, they wanted to make sure that the president didn't become a king and just issue orders. At the same time, as you pointed out, they had faith in oaths. They had faith in civic virtue. So did they want to define the presidency in a more open-ended way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So the good news on - with respect to the primaries, is that their - the stakes are relatively low in the sense that the - there is a presumptive Democratic nominee at this point, although many"}
{"id": "821934570", "date": "2020-03-26", "guest": "Benjamin Wittes", "title": "Trump Has Declared 'War' On The Presidency, Author Says", "question_index": 12, "text": "You know, we're talking about how President Trump has changed the presidency. And of course, the presidency has changed a lot since the days of the Founding Fathers. I mean, there weren't all these agencies for the president to oversee. The country was, of course, a lot smaller. You talk about how President Grover Cleveland answered the White House phone by himself - I guess phones were brand new then - and how Washington would, like, oversee everything - he analyzed the budget of the U.S. post office and just kind of micromanaged everything because he could. I mean, everything was on a much smaller scale. What are some of the key changes that you think have redefined the presidency over the years, over the centuries?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a really interesting question, and I think there's two answers to it. The first is that the founders themselves did not have a single attitude about the presidency. They actually disagreed about "}
{"id": "821934570", "date": "2020-03-26", "guest": "Benjamin Wittes", "title": "Trump Has Declared 'War' On The Presidency, Author Says", "question_index": 13, "text": "So you describe Woodrow Wilson and Theodore Roosevelt as the presidents who really changed the notions of what a presidency is. How did they change it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So the most important one, which is alluded to by your question, is just the growth of the federal government, right? So when, in Washington's Cabinet, there was the secretary of state Thomas Je"}
{"id": "821934570", "date": "2020-03-26", "guest": "Benjamin Wittes", "title": "Trump Has Declared 'War' On The Presidency, Author Says", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, Ben Wittes, I want to thank you so much for talking with us. Please stay well.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The key actor here is Woodrow Wilson. In the 19th century, presidents did not speak to the public except in ceremonial settings. Right? They talked to Congress. And Woodrow Wilson changed that in a pr"}
{"id": "821934570", "date": "2020-03-26", "guest": "Benjamin Wittes", "title": "Trump Has Declared 'War' On The Presidency, Author Says", "question_index": 15, "text": "Ben Wittes is the co-author of the new book \"Unmaking The Presidency.\" He co-founded and is editor in chief of Lawfare blog. After we take a short break, we'll remember playwright Terrence McNally. He died Tuesday of complications from the coronavirus. He was 81. He wrote the books for the musicals \"Kiss Of The Spider Woman\" and \"Ragtime\" and wrote the plays \"Love! Valour! Compassion!\" and \"Master Class\" and won Tonys for each of them as well as a lifetime achievement Tony last year. We'll listen back to my 1993 interview with him. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You, too. And to all of your listeners, social distancing is important, even if it's uncomfortable."}
{"id": "821967826", "date": "2020-03-26", "guest": "Terrence Mcnally", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Broadway Playwright Terrence McNally", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Among the growing number of casualties from COVID-19 is playwright Terrence McNally. He died Tuesday at the age of 81. McNally won several Tonys. Two are four musicals he wrote the book for, \"Ragtime\" and \"Kiss Of The Spider Woman.\" He also won for his plays \"Master Class,\" about Maria Callas, and \"Love! Valour! Compassion!\" which was inspired by the AIDS epidemic. He received a Tony for lifetime achievement last year. His play \"Frankie And Johnny In The Clair De Lune\" was adapted into a movie starring Al Pacino and Michelle Pfeiffer. A revival last year starred Audra McDonald and Michael Shannon. I spoke with Terrence McNally in 1993 after \"Kiss Of The Spider Woman\" had just won seven Tonys. The musical, like the film it was adapted from, was set in a prison cell in a Latin American dictatorship. Two seemingly incompatible men share the cell. One is a revolutionary obsessed with his political struggle. The other is a gay man caught up in a rich fantasy life revolving around movies. We started with one of the songs written for the show by Kander and Ebb.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "821967826", "date": "2020-03-26", "guest": "Terrence Mcnally", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Broadway Playwright Terrence McNally", "question_index": 1, "text": "UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As Valentin) Would you please shut up? Will you never shut up? Thank you very much. You're making me sick with that prissy wine. Watch me now. I draw a line. So you stick to your side, and I'll stick to mine. Never, ever cross this line. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As Molina, singing) Fine. But the pot. How about the pot? UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As Valentin, singing) What about the pot? UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As Molina, singing) It's on your side. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As Valentin, singing) So what? UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As Molina, singing) So when I have to use the pot, I intend to use the pot. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As Valentin, singing) So what? That's an exception. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As Molina, singing) Oh, gracious one, thanks a lot. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As Valentin, singing) So don't ever try to be - don't ever dream you'll be - don't dare to think that you'll ever be some fairy friend of mine 'cause no, no, no, no, no - that's where I draw the line. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As Molina, singing) Fine. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As Valentin, singing) I draw the line. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As Molina, singing) Fine. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As Valentin, singing) I draw the line. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As Molina, singing) Fine.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "821967826", "date": "2020-03-26", "guest": "Terrence Mcnally", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Broadway Playwright Terrence McNally", "question_index": 2, "text": "Terrence McNally, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "821967826", "date": "2020-03-26", "guest": "Terrence Mcnally", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Broadway Playwright Terrence McNally", "question_index": 3, "text": "Congratulations on the Tony. How did it feel to have \"Kiss Of The Spider Woman\" sweep at the Tonys?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "821967826", "date": "2020-03-26", "guest": "Terrence Mcnally", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Broadway Playwright Terrence McNally", "question_index": 4, "text": "What kind of difference does it make?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was very, very thrilling, I'll tell you that - and very nerve-wracking. My award for best book came quite early in the evening. And people said, oh, you can relax now. I said, no, it's - we'v"}
{"id": "821967826", "date": "2020-03-26", "guest": "Terrence Mcnally", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Broadway Playwright Terrence McNally", "question_index": 5, "text": "Has the Tony had any impact on you personally yet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, at the box office, it gives it kind of seal of approval. This is not an easy show. I know when the subject matter is described, some people go - oh, I don't know if I want to see that. So the To"}
{"id": "821967826", "date": "2020-03-26", "guest": "Terrence Mcnally", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Broadway Playwright Terrence McNally", "question_index": 6, "text": "Isn't that frustrating? Just when everybody assumes that you're probably drinking bottle after bottle of champagne...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I've got a play in previews. And I spent half the Tony Award looking at my watch saying, oh, I - oh they're at that scene now. I hope that's going better 'cause I'd made some changes in the play tha"}
{"id": "821967826", "date": "2020-03-26", "guest": "Terrence Mcnally", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Broadway Playwright Terrence McNally", "question_index": 7, "text": "...You're really hard at work.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I've got a play in previews. And I spent half the Tony Award looking at my watch saying, oh, I - oh they're at that scene now. I hope that's going better 'cause I'd made some changes in the play tha"}
{"id": "821967826", "date": "2020-03-26", "guest": "Terrence Mcnally", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Broadway Playwright Terrence McNally", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one, I don't drink. And two, I wouldn't have it any other way. It's great to have two shows going. And the plays, they become my extended family, the cast and crews working on the show. So it's "}
{"id": "821967826", "date": "2020-03-26", "guest": "Terrence Mcnally", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Broadway Playwright Terrence McNally", "question_index": 9, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And since I come from a very, very small family, that's very nice. Both my parents and their parents were only children, and I just have one brother. So there's not many McNallys around. I have no aun"}
{"id": "821967826", "date": "2020-03-26", "guest": "Terrence Mcnally", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Broadway Playwright Terrence McNally", "question_index": 10, "text": "I was wondering if all the Tonys that \"Kiss Of The Spider Woman\" got seemed like vindication to you. The show premiered, I guess, in a workshop production in 1990, and it never really made it onto Broadway, and I think it was expected to. What happened back then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...these different theaters."}
{"id": "821967826", "date": "2020-03-26", "guest": "Terrence Mcnally", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Broadway Playwright Terrence McNally", "question_index": 11, "text": "We're listening back to the 1993 interview I recorded with playwright Terrence McNally, who died Tuesday from complications of the coronavirus. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, let me - I can give you the most succinct answer - would be we made some mistakes with the show. Now, if this had been back in 1960 or '50, we would have opened the show out of town and said, ge"}
{"id": "821967826", "date": "2020-03-26", "guest": "Terrence Mcnally", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Broadway Playwright Terrence McNally", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 1993 interview with playwright Terrence McNally, who died Tuesday of complications from COVID-19. He was 81. When we left off in this interview, we were talking about the Broadway musical \"Kiss Of The Spider Woman.\" He wrote the book for the show, which was adapted from the movie of the same name.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, let me - I can give you the most succinct answer - would be we made some mistakes with the show. Now, if this had been back in 1960 or '50, we would have opened the show out of town and said, ge"}
{"id": "821967826", "date": "2020-03-26", "guest": "Terrence Mcnally", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Broadway Playwright Terrence McNally", "question_index": 13, "text": "What are some of the challenges you were up against when you were writing the book for \"Kiss Of The Spider Woman\" and trying to figure out where the songs belong? And how much of it is your job as the writer of the book to decide where their songs are and what they're going to be about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, let me - I can give you the most succinct answer - would be we made some mistakes with the show. Now, if this had been back in 1960 or '50, we would have opened the show out of town and said, ge"}
{"id": "821967826", "date": "2020-03-26", "guest": "Terrence Mcnally", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Broadway Playwright Terrence McNally", "question_index": 14, "text": "Terrence, can I ask you to repeat the comments that you made when you accepted the Tony?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first of all, I wrote it as a play. Kander and Ebb, when I first started working with them, said, please, never give us a scene in which you stop writing and there's a parentheses and says, Moli"}
{"id": "821967826", "date": "2020-03-26", "guest": "Terrence Mcnally", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Broadway Playwright Terrence McNally", "question_index": 15, "text": "As I recall, after talking about how you danced around your house to \"Too Darn Hot,\" you warned parents about the consequences of exposing their children to musicals", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I said how - I said that it meant a lot to win an award for best book for a musical because I grew up in a house where musicals were important. My father and mother listened to show albums, and when o"}
{"id": "821967826", "date": "2020-03-26", "guest": "Terrence Mcnally", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Broadway Playwright Terrence McNally", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I said how - I said that it meant a lot to win an award for best book for a musical because I grew up in a house where musicals were important. My father and mother listened to show albums, and when o"}
{"id": "821967826", "date": "2020-03-26", "guest": "Terrence Mcnally", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Broadway Playwright Terrence McNally", "question_index": 17, "text": "Now, how happy were your parents while you were staying home listening to cast recordings while the other guys were trading baseball cards and playing baseball?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh. Oh, I said, so before you take your 5-year-old to his first - his or her first musical, be careful - be very, very careful because it could happen to you; you could have a child who wants to work "}
{"id": "821967826", "date": "2020-03-26", "guest": "Terrence Mcnally", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Broadway Playwright Terrence McNally", "question_index": 18, "text": "Well, actually, one of your plays is about people who love opera, \"Lisbon Traviata.\" And how did you get into opera from cast recordings?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. I mean, it's the kind of thing you'd have to ask my parents, how they really felt about that. I was - I don't think it was - see; the Broadway show albums were there, so they didn't mind"}
{"id": "821967826", "date": "2020-03-26", "guest": "Terrence Mcnally", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Broadway Playwright Terrence McNally", "question_index": 19, "text": "What was your first big break in the theater?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was in a parochial school, and a nun had music appreciation every Friday. And she played opera records, mainly Puccini love duets. And they were on 78 records, I remember. And it was James Melton, a"}
{"id": "821967826", "date": "2020-03-26", "guest": "Terrence Mcnally", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Broadway Playwright Terrence McNally", "question_index": 20, "text": "My interview with Terrence McNally was recorded in 1993. He died Tuesday of complications from COVID-19. He was 81. We send our best wishes for recovery to everyone who is sick, our best wishes to their loved ones and our sympathies to those who have lost loved ones.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my second play, without doubt. It's a great break. I would envy myself if I read this story. It's how I've always lived my life in the theater. I wrote a play - my first play was a great failure. "}
{"id": "821967826", "date": "2020-03-26", "guest": "Terrence Mcnally", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Broadway Playwright Terrence McNally", "question_index": 21, "text": "If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed this week - with comic and actor Marc Maron, who has a new stand-up special called \"End Times Fun;\" with Max Brooks, whose bestselling zombie novels are really about how we plan for and deal with disasters and pandemics and who also made a really funny video about social distancing with his father, Mel Brooks - check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Mooj Zadie, Thea Chaloner and Seth Kelley. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my second play, without doubt. It's a great break. I would envy myself if I read this story. It's how I've always lived my life in the theater. I wrote a play - my first play was a great failure. "}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today we have Part II of our tribute to Stephen Sondheim, who turned 90 last Sunday. We made it a two-parter because we're big fans and because listening to Sondheim and his music seems like a great way to take a break and boost our spirits. Sondheim fans like me always wonder, how did he write those brilliant lyrics? He provided a lot of answers in his book \"Finishing The Hat,\" which collects his lyrics from 1954 to '81 and tells the stories behind the songs. The interview we'll hear today was recorded in 2010, after the book's publication. Included in the book are his lyrics for the shows \"Saturday Night,\" \"Gypsy,\" \"A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Forum,\" \"Anyone Can Whistle,\" \"Do I Hear A Waltz?\", \"Company,\" \"Follies,\" \"A Little Night Music,\" \"The Frogs,\" \"Pacific Overtures,\" \"Sweeney Todd\" and \"Merrily We Roll Along.\" The book's title, \"Finishing The Hat,\" refers to a song in his show \"Sunday In The Park With George.\" We started this interview with a song from the first Broadway show he wrote the lyrics for, \"West Side Story.\" The music is by Leonard Bernstein. A new revival of the show is now dark, along with the rest of Broadway.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 1, "text": "Stephen Sondheim, welcome back to FRESH AIR. It is great to have you back. And thank you", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Riff, singing) When you're a Jet, you're a Jet all the way from your first cigarette to your last dying day. When you're a Jet, if the spit hits the fan, you've got brothers around. You're a famil"}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 2, "text": "for writing down the stories behind your songs and for sharing your thoughts on other lyricists. So getting to the \"Jet Song,\" the opening song from your first Broadway musical - you know, a lot of people mock \"West Side Story\" for being about gangs singing and dancing to show tunes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Riff, singing) When you're a Jet, you're a Jet all the way from your first cigarette to your last dying day. When you're a Jet, if the spit hits the fan, you've got brothers around. You're a famil"}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 3, "text": "What were the challenges of writing lyrics for a gang to sing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 4, "text": "So one of the things I love about your book is that, you know, you not only tell the stories about the songs, you reprint the lyrics for alternate songs, for songs that you wrote before the final song was written or chosen. And you do that with the \"Jet Song.\" There were a couple of songs that you'd written lyrics for that weren't used.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no challenge at all. I was just imitating Arthur Laurents' style. Arthur wrote the book, and he set - he made up a style, a kind of street talk that never existed because he knew that if he used"}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 5, "text": "So would you read us a few lines from one or two of those alternate lyrics and tell us what you were trying to do there that was different from what you did in the \"Jet Song?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There were two that were written and then another one that - which was to replace the \"Jet Song\" that we wrote in Washington. So there were three - two prior to the show going to Washington, one after"}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 6, "text": "And then there's another song that you wrote lyrics for called \"This Turf Is Ours.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, well, I wasn't trying to do anything different than I was trying to do in the \"Jet Song.\" Here, for example - here are a couple of lines from \"Mix,\" which was name of a song that we wrote which wa"}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 7, "text": "Now, the song ends with, you know, we're going to beat every whole buggin' gang on the whole buggin' street, on the whole buggin' ever-loving street. Did you want to use the F-word there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's the one we wrote in Washington. And that was because people felt that \"Mix\" was too violent. So we wrote the \"Jet Song,\" which is very mildly threatening and menacing. And we got to Washington,"}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 8, "text": "Right. My guess is Stephen Sondheim, and he has a new book called \"Finishing The Hat: Collected Lyrics (1954-1981) With Attendant Comments, Principles, Heresies, Grudges, Whines and Anecdotes.\" A song from \"Gypsy\" I'd like you to talk about is \"Some People,\" which Ethel Merman sang in the original production. You know, I love the opening line - some people can get a thrill knitting sweaters and sitting still. Can you - do you remember how that image came to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure. I wanted this to be the first musical to use [expletive]. And in fact, I first used it in Krupke. I wanted the last line of \"Krupke\" to be, gee, Officer Krupke, [expletive] you. And we playe"}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 9, "text": "Were there qualities you were writing for, for Ethel Merman's voice? Now, you weren't writing the music for this; you were writing the lyrics. But still, I mean, she has such a distinctive delivery.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, but I set up a rhyme scheme there of inner rhymes because I wanted the song to speed along, and inner rhymes help speed lines. So the knitting and sitting becomes a pattern for the song. So no, bu"}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 10, "text": "So I'm going to play \"Some People.\" Just tell me one more thing here. You talk about in your book how writing into a song, you know, from the dialogue, that transition into the song is the most difficult part. How did you solve the problem with \"Some People\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I mean, we knew we were writing for that kind of outsized personality that she's got. We assumed that she couldn't act because she had played all of her life just low comedy and brassy songs. And "}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 11, "text": "So you were never happy with it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wrote a verse - well, actually, I didn't solve it, and the speech that leads into it reaches a high pitch, and then she starts it on a low note. And so I wrote - in Philadelphia when we were trying "}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 12, "text": "OK. Well, let's just hear the song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No - still no."}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 13, "text": "So this is Ethel Merman from the original cast recording of \"Gypsy,\" with lyrics...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 14, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep. The line..."}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 15, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The line - I paraphrase slightly, but the line that she's telling her father off, and she's angrier and angrier, and she ends it by saying - I'm getting my kids, and I'm getting out. And then she star"}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 16, "text": "OK. So here it is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm terribly sorry. He's being taken to the hospital. He's bleeding from both ears. No. But anyway, she reaches that kind of pitch, and then she starts to sing."}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 17, "text": "We'll hear more stories behind the songs when we continue our interview with Stephen Sondheim after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Rose, singing) Some people can get a thrill knitting sweaters and sitting still. That's OK for some people who don't know they're alive. Some people can thrive and bloom living life in a living ro"}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with Stephen Sondheim in 2010, after the publication of his book \"Finishing The Hat,\" a collection of his lyrics from 1954 to '81 and his comments about them, along with what he describes as his principles, grudges, whines and anecdotes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Rose, singing) Some people can get a thrill knitting sweaters and sitting still. That's OK for some people who don't know they're alive. Some people can thrive and bloom living life in a living ro"}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 19, "text": "You have some fascinating comments in your book about lyricists whose work you really admire and lyricists - I think our listeners will be surprised to hear you have a lot of criticisms of their work. And what surprised me the most was to read your criticisms of your mentor, Oscar Hammerstein. And had you shared those criticisms in public before? Is this kind of, like, the first time for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Rose, singing) Some people can get a thrill knitting sweaters and sitting still. That's OK for some people who don't know they're alive. Some people can thrive and bloom living life in a living ro"}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 20, "text": "Well, let me choose a couple of Hammerstein examples that you cite in the book. Oh, what a beautiful morning. Oh, what a beautiful day. You like that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no. No, no. No, I never - in public. No, not at all. But since I was writing a book that is critical of my own work, I wanted to show the standards by which I, you know, write my own lyrics. And i"}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 21, "text": "Now, you contrast that - I should preface this by saying the last time you were on our show, you talked about the, you know, really interesting harmonic changes in the Jerome Kern song \"All The Things You Are,\" for which Hammerstein wrote the lyrics. And - but you're very critical of Hammerstein's lyrics to the song, such as the line, you are the promised kiss of springtime that makes the lonely winter seem long.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's not that. I point - that's not a question whether I like or not. That's an example of how you underwrite a lyric. He knows that that doesn't read very excitingly on paper, but he also knows"}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 22, "text": "Oh, OK. You do it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Take the next line. Go ahead. Read it again. Read the second line because that's the one that clinches it."}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 23, "text": "Let's get to your show \"Follies,\" which is about a reunion of middle-aged men and women who performed in the Follies or the people who were the girlfriends, boyfriends, spouses of those people who performed in the Follies. And so they're now middle-aged, and it's part set in the present and part set in the past, in the Follies era. And some of the songs you wrote for the show are reminiscent of the shows that come out of those revues of the '30s and '40s, probably the '20s, too. Was it fun, in a way, to write in a style that wasn't yours?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You are the promised kiss of springtime that makes the lonely winter seem long. You are the breathless hush of evening that trembles on the brink of a lovely song. Those are all very pretty words, but"}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 24, "text": "And, like, the opening line - what will tomorrow bring, the pundits query. I can't imagine you writing that", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, always. Always. It's great fun to imitate people you admire."}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 25, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, always. Always. It's great fun to imitate people you admire."}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 26, "text": "OK, so let's hear \"You're Gonna Love Tomorrow\" from \"Follies.\" This is from the original cast recording.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no. But no, but that's exactly the style. You've hit exactly the right style. That's precisely the kind of thing that Ira Gershwin wrote. If you look through his lyrics, you'll find that because i"}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 27, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded with Stephen Sondheim in 2010 after the publication of his book \"Finishing The Hat,\" a collection of his lyrics from 1954 to '81 and the stories behind the songs. Sondheim turned 90 last Sunday. We'll hear more of Sondheim's songs and the stories behind them after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today is Part II of our tribute to Stephen Sondheim, who turned 90 last Sunday. We're listening to the interview I recorded in October 2010 after the publication of his book \"Finishing The Hat,\" which collects his lyrics from 1954 to '81 and also includes the stories behind the songs as well as what Sondheim describes as his principles, his grudges, whines and anecdotes. Before we get back to the interview, let's hear another song from his 1971 show \"Follies.\" This is John McMartin.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Young Phyllis and Young Ben, singing) Today was perfectly perfect."}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 28, "text": "Let's get back to our interview with Stephen Sondheim. His new book of his collected lyrics includes sidebars in which he evaluates the work of other lyricists in the pantheon. You loved Dorothy Fields and knew her, didn't even realize she was a songwriter until you were in your teens. And your father introduced her to the man who became her husband.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Ben, singing) Too many mornings waking and pretending I reach for you. Thousands of mornings dreaming of my girl. All that time wasted merely passing through, time I could have spent so content wa"}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 29, "text": "And you love lyrics of hers that are very colloquial, like \"Sunny Side Of The Street.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it was his best friend."}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 30, "text": "Let's get to your musical \"A Little Night Music,\" and I want to play \"Send In The Clowns.\" And I'll confess to you, this is a song - I love your songs. This is a song I never really felt much warmth for. I just never connected with it. And then seeing it in context in the show, I fell in love with it and then just kind of went back to the cast recording - original cast recording - and started listening to it over and over again with Glynis Johns singing it. And you tell a very interesting story about how you wrote this song for her, playing to her strengths and weaknesses. Can you talk about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Again, simple - it seems so simple. You hear lyrics like that, and you think, oh, I could write one of those. Well, you couldn't. And it's all the effort that goes into making something sound ef"}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 31, "text": "So - OK, so this is Glynis Johns from the original cast recording of \"A Little Night Music\" singing \"Send In The Clowns.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The leading lady in the show is supposed to be charming and beautiful - beautiful enough, even though she's entering middle age - to be a rival to a beautiful, young 18-year-old girl. That's the idea "}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 32, "text": "That was Glynis Johns from the original cast recording of \"A Little Night Music.\" And my guest is Stephen Sondheim, who wrote the words and music for the show and now has a collection of his lyrics with the stories behind the songs and then some. And the book is called \"Finishing The Hat.\" We'll continue our interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Desiree Armfeldt, singing) Isn't rich? Are we a pair? Me here at last on the ground, you in mid-air. Send in the clowns. Isn't it bliss? Don't you approve? One who keeps tearing around, one who ca"}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 33, "text": "My guest is Stephen Sondheim. His new book, \"Finishing The Hat,\" collects his lyrics from 1954 to 1981 and tells the stories behind the songs. I want to move on to \"Sweeney Todd,\" and I want to ask you about writing for the chorus. There's a chorus that opens the show, and they kind of - it's almost like a Greek chorus in a way 'cause they tell you what the story is going to be about. They narrate some of the action. And, you know, you write in the book about how thrilling it is to hear the sound of a full chorus, but how, at the same time, it's, oh, often unconvincing that everybody in a chorus would be having the same feeling at the same time. Like, you asked, did everyone in the Navy and South Pacific think there is nothing like a dame? You say, what about the misogynists in the group? Or if there were no misogynists, are there no homosexuals", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Desiree Armfeldt, singing) Isn't rich? Are we a pair? Me here at last on the ground, you in mid-air. Send in the clowns. Isn't it bliss? Don't you approve? One who keeps tearing around, one who ca"}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 34, "text": "? So how did you write for a chorus in \"Sweeney Todd?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Desiree Armfeldt, singing) Isn't rich? Are we a pair? Me here at last on the ground, you in mid-air. Send in the clowns. Isn't it bliss? Don't you approve? One who keeps tearing around, one who ca"}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 35, "text": "So this was the time when you thought you could write for a chorus effectively.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well - but they're telling a story. They're not having an emotional thought. They're telling a story."}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 36, "text": "So the first line in the lyric is, attend the tale of Sweeney Todd. And you say that that's an example of how God is in the details, which is one of your prime rules of lyric writing. What's contained in that phrase?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure. Of course. Absolutely. Absolutely. But when they're all eating meat pies at the beginning of the second act in the number called \"God, That's Good!\" or when they're buying Pirelli's miracle "}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 37, "text": "So here's the opening chorus from \"Sweeney Todd.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first of all, attend is an old-fashioned word, so right away you know you're not in the 20th century. And the happenstance, the happy happenstance of the T sounds - attend the tale of Sweeney To"}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 38, "text": "That's the opening chorus from \"Sweeney Todd.\" My guest Stephen Sondheim wrote the words and music. Now he has a new book of his collected lyrics from 1954 to 1981. It's called \"Finishing The Hat.\" Now, you point out that none of your musicals elicited as extreme reaction, both extravagant accolades and contemptuous rage, as \"Sweeney\" did. Do you have a sense of why that was so?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "ATTEND THE TALE OF SWEENEY TODD\")"}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 39, "text": "My guest is Stephen Sondheim. We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I really don't. Over a period of time, of course, that's become less true. There is much less contention about it now because it's been - it sort of has settled into the canon of musicals, and it'"}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 40, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 2010 interview with Stephen Sondheim, recorded after the publication of his book \"Finishing The Hat,\" which collects his lyrics from 1954 to '81. Sondheim turned 90 last Sunday.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I really don't. Over a period of time, of course, that's become less true. There is much less contention about it now because it's been - it sort of has settled into the canon of musicals, and it'"}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 41, "text": "Let me move on to \"Merrily We Were Roll Along.\" There's a beautiful song in \"Merrily\" that's sung twice, and I'm thinking of \"Not A Day Goes By.\" And both versions - each version has a different meaning because one's at the beginning of a love affair, and the other's during a divorce.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I really don't. Over a period of time, of course, that's become less true. There is much less contention about it now because it's been - it sort of has settled into the canon of musicals, and it'"}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 42, "text": "Can you talk about writing that song with two different meanings in mind? And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 43, "text": "So we'll hear both versions of \"Not A Day Goes By\" from the 1994 York Theatre revival.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I wrote the whole score knowing that it was going to go backwards in time. And I thought, what does that imply? Well, it implies that something that you and I sing today, 20 years from now will "}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 44, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But that's the way to illustrate it."}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 45, "text": "That's two versions of \"Not A Day Goes By\" from Stephen Sondheim's musical \"Merrily We Roll Along.\" And my guest is Stephen Sondheim. He has a new book of his collected lyrics and the stories behind those lyrics called \"Finishing The Hat.\" When writing about working with Jule Styne on \"Gypsy,\" you say, only superhuman confidence keeps you writing fearlessly into old age; Jule Styne was one of the few who had it in spades. Do you feel like you have that superhuman confidence to keep writing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Beth) Till the days go by."}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 46, "text": "But you do plan on keep writing - on keeping writing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not really. Not really. I mean, I want to get back to the piano as soon as I finish the second volume. But no, I don't have that drive, and I don't have that eagerness that Jule had every day of h"}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 47, "text": "Well, I want to thank you so much...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure. Oh, sure. Oh, sure."}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 48, "text": "...For coming back to FRESH AIR and for talking with us again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 49, "text": "And congratulations on the new book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "822517346", "date": "2020-03-27", "guest": "Michael Callan", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates Broadway Legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 50, "text": "Stephen Sondheim, recorded in October 2010, after the publication of his book \"Finishing The Hat,\" which collects his lyrics from 1954 to '81 and tells the stories behind the songs. His follow-up book \"Look, I Made A Hat\" collects his lyrics from 1981 to 2011. Sondheim turned 90 last Sunday. Today was the second part of our tribute to him. We wish him good health. On the next FRESH AIR, as we evaluate the performance of our president in this time of crisis, we'll talk with Erik Larson about how Winston Churchill led Britain in a time of peril. Larson's new book is about Churchill's first year as prime minister, when Britain endured a ferocious Nazi bombing campaign. Larson says Churchill told his citizens the truth and inspired them to resist. Larson's new book is called \"The Splendid And The Vile.\" I hope you'll join us. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ah, OK, thank you for that, too."}
{"id": "824479587", "date": "2020-03-31", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "Heaven And Hell Are 'Not What Jesus Preached,' Religion Scholar Says", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. When we originally scheduled the interview we're about to hear, we didn't realize how weirdly timely it would be. Let's face it - the pandemic has made death a presence on a scale most of us aren't used to. Your beliefs about what happens after death or if anything happens might shape how you're dealing with your fears and anxieties. In the new book, \"Heaven And Hell: A History Of The Afterlife,\" my guest Bart Ehrman writes about where the ideas of heaven and hell came from. He examines the Hebrew Bible, the New Testament, as well as writings from the Greek and Roman era. Ehrman is a distinguished professor of religious studies at The University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill and is one of America's most widely read scholars of early Christianity and the New Testament. His books such as \"Misquoting Jesus\" and \"How Jesus Became God\" challenge a lot of beliefs and common wisdom. As for Ehrman's beliefs, as a child, he was an altar boy in the Episcopal Church. At age 15, he became a born-again fundamentalist evangelical Christian. After attending the Moody Bible Institute, he studied at Princeton Theological Seminary, which introduced him to texts and interpretations that led him to a more liberal form of Christianity. Eventually, he left the faith altogether. Bart Ehrman, welcome back to FRESH AIR. It is a pleasure to have you back. How are you and your family?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "824479587", "date": "2020-03-31", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "Heaven And Hell Are 'Not What Jesus Preached,' Religion Scholar Says", "question_index": 1, "text": "So is the pandemic making you think differently about your book? Are you seeing your book in a way that you didn't quite when you were actually writing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We're all well. And thanks for having me back."}
{"id": "824479587", "date": "2020-03-31", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "Heaven And Hell Are 'Not What Jesus Preached,' Religion Scholar Says", "question_index": 2, "text": "Is it fair to say you're an atheist now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would say not so much. I mean, my view is that, you know, people have always been concerned about death, about what happens to them when they die, and so that's why I took on this book in the first "}
{"id": "824479587", "date": "2020-03-31", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "Heaven And Hell Are 'Not What Jesus Preached,' Religion Scholar Says", "question_index": 3, "text": "In a time like this, do you wish you could still believe in a heaven that offers eternal life, in a place where you would be united with loved ones?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I actually consider myself both an atheist and an agnostic because I - you know, I don't really know if there's a superior being in the universe, but I don't believe there is. And so in terms of wha"}
{"id": "824479587", "date": "2020-03-31", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "Heaven And Hell Are 'Not What Jesus Preached,' Religion Scholar Says", "question_index": 4, "text": "So what do you believe about death now, about what happens after you die?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that would absolutely be good. It's not that I wish I believed it; I wish that it were true. And as I say in my book, as we'll probably get to, it may be true that we will live after we die. But"}
{"id": "824479587", "date": "2020-03-31", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "Heaven And Hell Are 'Not What Jesus Preached,' Religion Scholar Says", "question_index": 5, "text": "One of the theses of your book about the history of heaven and how is that views of heaven and hell don't go back to the earliest stages of Christianity, and they're not in the Old Testament or in Jesus' teachings. They're not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I - you know, I've read about death and thought about death and the afterlife for many, many years now and what - you know, what philosophers say and theologians say and biblical scholars say an"}
{"id": "824479587", "date": "2020-03-31", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "Heaven And Hell Are 'Not What Jesus Preached,' Religion Scholar Says", "question_index": 6, "text": "Are there things in the Hebrew Bible that still support the idea of heaven and hell as people came to understand it, things that you can extract from the Old Testament that might not literally mention heaven and hell but still support the vision that emerged of it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know, exactly. This is the big surprise of the book, and it's the one thing people probably wouldn't expect because, you know, when I was growing up, I just assumed. This is the view of Christianity"}
{"id": "824479587", "date": "2020-03-31", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "Heaven And Hell Are 'Not What Jesus Preached,' Religion Scholar Says", "question_index": 7, "text": "Are there specific passages in the Hebrew Bible that support the notion of an afterlife?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think one of the hardest things for people to get their minds around is that ancient Israelites and then Jews and then Jesus himself and his followers have a very different understanding of what the"}
{"id": "824479587", "date": "2020-03-31", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "Heaven And Hell Are 'Not What Jesus Preached,' Religion Scholar Says", "question_index": 8, "text": "Why don't we take a short break here? And then we'll talk about the history of ideas of heaven and hell. If you're just joining us, my guest is Bart Ehrman. He's the author of the new book \"Heaven And Hell: A History Of The Afterlife.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", and so he was upset."}
{"id": "824479587", "date": "2020-03-31", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "Heaven And Hell Are 'Not What Jesus Preached,' Religion Scholar Says", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Bart Ehrman, author of the new book \"Heaven And Hell: A History Of The Afterlife.\" He's a distinguished professor of religious studies at The University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. So you write that starting in the sixth century, Hebrew prophets began to proclaim, you know, that the nation had been destroyed and would be restored back to life by God. It would be the resurrection of the nation. But then toward the end of the Hebrew Bible era, some Jewish thinkers came to believe that the future resurrection would apply not just to the nation but to individuals. So how does that shift happen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", and so he was upset."}
{"id": "824479587", "date": "2020-03-31", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "Heaven And Hell Are 'Not What Jesus Preached,' Religion Scholar Says", "question_index": 10, "text": "So this was all dependent on, like, the Messiah coming on the end of days, which some Jewish prophets predicted would be soon. When Jesus was alive, he thought the end of days would be soon. And of course, it kept not happening.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So this is a really important shift for understanding both the history of later Judaism and the history of later Christianity and the historical Jesus. About 200 before Jesus was born, there wa"}
{"id": "824479587", "date": "2020-03-31", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "Heaven And Hell Are 'Not What Jesus Preached,' Religion Scholar Says", "question_index": 11, "text": "And you say that for the ancient Jews, the fact that the Messiah didn't come, that was a turning point in beliefs about what happens after death, too. There started to be a belief that reward and punishment would be right after death, as opposed to after the Messiah comes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "824479587", "date": "2020-03-31", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "Heaven And Hell Are 'Not What Jesus Preached,' Religion Scholar Says", "question_index": 12, "text": "So you were saying there really isn't an explicit description of heaven and hell in the Hebrew Bible or even in the New Testament, but that Paul is important in understanding the history of heaven and hell. Tell us about what Paul wrote.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That became a view somewhat in Judaism, and it became a very pronounced view in Christianity. The - after Jesus. Jesus himself held to the apocalyptic view that I laid out. He taught - his main "}
{"id": "824479587", "date": "2020-03-31", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "Heaven And Hell Are 'Not What Jesus Preached,' Religion Scholar Says", "question_index": 13, "text": "How does hell come into it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Paul is very important for understanding the history of heaven and hell, as he's important for understanding most things about early Christian thinking. Paul was not a follower of Jesus during his lif"}
{"id": "824479587", "date": "2020-03-31", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "Heaven And Hell Are 'Not What Jesus Preached,' Religion Scholar Says", "question_index": 14, "text": "We have to take a short break here. So let's do that, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Bart Ehrman, who is the author of the new book \"Heaven And Hell: A History Of The Afterlife.\" He's a distinguished professor of religious studies at The University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. We'll be right back and talk more about the history of heaven and hell. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so since these people believed that the soul was immortal, that you can kill the body but you can't kill the soul, they thought, well, OK, so our soul will go to heaven to be with God, but then "}
{"id": "824479587", "date": "2020-03-31", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "Heaven And Hell Are 'Not What Jesus Preached,' Religion Scholar Says", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross, back with Bart Ehrman, author of the new book \"Heaven And Hell: A History Of The Afterlife.\" He's a distinguished professor of Religious Studies at The University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill and is one of America's most widely read scholars of early Christianity and the New Testament. His earlier books include \"Misquoting Jesus\" and \"How Jesus Became God.\" You've also studied the Gnostic Gospels, which were the recently discovered gospels that never became part of the canon. And these are more mystical texts. And the most famous of the Gnostic Gospels is Thomas. What was his vision of what happens after death?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so since these people believed that the soul was immortal, that you can kill the body but you can't kill the soul, they thought, well, OK, so our soul will go to heaven to be with God, but then "}
{"id": "824479587", "date": "2020-03-31", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "Heaven And Hell Are 'Not What Jesus Preached,' Religion Scholar Says", "question_index": 16, "text": "So your new book is about the history of heaven and hell. Your forthcoming book that you're working on now is going to be called \"Expecting Armageddon.\" So how does the Book of Revelation contribute to the vision of hell?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The various groups of Christians that people sometimes label gnostic would cover a wide range of views. There are lots of different religions that people have called gnostic. But one thing that most o"}
{"id": "824479587", "date": "2020-03-31", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "Heaven And Hell Are 'Not What Jesus Preached,' Religion Scholar Says", "question_index": 17, "text": "So a lot of the imagery of hell comes from the Book of Revelation. It's a very explicit, kind of gruesome book, and I wonder if you've thought about why it's so graphic.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah. You know, a lot of people read Revelation as indicating that people who are opposed to God - sinners will be cast into the lake of fire forever, and they will be - yeah, they'll be floatin"}
{"id": "824479587", "date": "2020-03-31", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "Heaven And Hell Are 'Not What Jesus Preached,' Religion Scholar Says", "question_index": 18, "text": "You've talked about how belief in the end times led in a circuitous way to belief in heaven and hell. I've heard a lot of joking lately about how it's the end times. You know, California was on fire. We have climate change and extreme weather and earthquakes and volcanoes. And people are afraid that the planet itself is dying. We have, you know, plastics in the ocean, ice caps that are melting. And now we have the pandemic. I'm wondering if you're hearing that kind of thing, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I've thought a lot about it. As you said, this is going to be what my next book is on, is about how people have misinterpreted Revelation as a prediction of about what's going to happen in our f"}
{"id": "824479587", "date": "2020-03-31", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "Heaven And Hell Are 'Not What Jesus Preached,' Religion Scholar Says", "question_index": 19, "text": "Let's take a break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is religion scholar Bart Ehrman, who is the author of the new book \"Heaven And Hell: A History Of The Afterlife.\" We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So that should give one pause. The things that are happening now are absolutely dreadful as, of course, they were in 1916 to - 1914 to 1918 and as they have been at other times in history. The book "}
{"id": "824479587", "date": "2020-03-31", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "Heaven And Hell Are 'Not What Jesus Preached,' Religion Scholar Says", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Bart Ehrman, author of the new book \"Heaven And Hell: A History Of The Afterlife.\" He's a distinguished professor of religious studies at The University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill and the author of many books about early Christianity. So now we're faced with a pandemic. You could, I suppose, use the word plague, and the word, you know, plague is in the Hebrew Bible. What were the explanations in the Hebrew Bible for plagues?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So that should give one pause. The things that are happening now are absolutely dreadful as, of course, they were in 1916 to - 1914 to 1918 and as they have been at other times in history. The book "}
{"id": "824479587", "date": "2020-03-31", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "Heaven And Hell Are 'Not What Jesus Preached,' Religion Scholar Says", "question_index": 21, "text": "When you were 15 and became a fundamentalist evangelical Christian, what would you have believed about the pandemic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. The old testament has a fairly uniform and rather stark explanation for why there are plagues or epidemics or pandemics. In virtually every case, we're told that it's because God is punishing pe"}
{"id": "824479587", "date": "2020-03-31", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "Heaven And Hell Are 'Not What Jesus Preached,' Religion Scholar Says", "question_index": 22, "text": "And compare that to now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a really good question. I probably would have subscribed - I would have subscribed to either the view that God was upset and we needed to repent so that he would relent, or that the devil - it "}
{"id": "824479587", "date": "2020-03-31", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "Heaven And Hell Are 'Not What Jesus Preached,' Religion Scholar Says", "question_index": 23, "text": "I'm wondering - since you've changed from being a fundamentalist when you were in your teens and early 20s to now being an agnostic atheist, how have you dealt with the deaths or impending deaths over the years of loved ones who do believe and who - you know, who are Christians, who are Christian believers and do believe in heaven and hell? Like, I'm sure you don't want to talk them out of their beliefs. But it's not what you believe.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think those views - I mean, I respect believers. I do not try to convert anybody. I don't try to trash anybody's views. I try to respect everybody's views. I think that sometimes those very hi"}
{"id": "824479587", "date": "2020-03-31", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "Heaven And Hell Are 'Not What Jesus Preached,' Religion Scholar Says", "question_index": 24, "text": "So how do you mediate between your beliefs and their beliefs in how you talk to them about what will happen and how you talk to yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "824479587", "date": "2020-03-31", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "Heaven And Hell Are 'Not What Jesus Preached,' Religion Scholar Says", "question_index": 25, "text": "Do you feel that believing in hell scarred you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Of course, I'm not going to - I mean, there's no reason to shatter somebody's beliefs, especially if they simply are providing them with hope. My view is that we all believe very strange things, and"}
{"id": "824479587", "date": "2020-03-31", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "Heaven And Hell Are 'Not What Jesus Preached,' Religion Scholar Says", "question_index": 26, "text": "Let's take a break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is religion scholar Bart Ehrman, author of the new book \"Heaven And Hell: A History Of The Afterlife.\" We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So I wasn't always a pleasant person to be around because I was right and they were wrong, and since they were wrong, they were going to hell. But the main thing is that I think that, in fact, it im"}
{"id": "824479587", "date": "2020-03-31", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "Heaven And Hell Are 'Not What Jesus Preached,' Religion Scholar Says", "question_index": 27, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Bart Ehrman, author of the new book \"Heaven And Hell: A History Of The Afterlife.\" He's a distinguished professor of religious studies at The University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill and the author of many books about early Christianity. You know, you write in your book that it's hard for you to conceive of God as being a sadist who would torture people for eternity in hell.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So I wasn't always a pleasant person to be around because I was right and they were wrong, and since they were wrong, they were going to hell. But the main thing is that I think that, in fact, it im"}
{"id": "824479587", "date": "2020-03-31", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "Heaven And Hell Are 'Not What Jesus Preached,' Religion Scholar Says", "question_index": 28, "text": "I'm wondering what you think about when you think about how the number of people who are contracting COVID 19 and how the number of people who are dying keeps growing as we get closer to Passover and Easter, which are very holy times in Judaism and Christianity.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So the bottom line of the book is that the way you kind of trace the history of heaven and hell is that when people thought that everybody dies and it's the same for everybody forever, they tho"}
{"id": "824479587", "date": "2020-03-31", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "Heaven And Hell Are 'Not What Jesus Preached,' Religion Scholar Says", "question_index": 29, "text": "So what are you doing to stay safe? You live in North Carolina. You teach in the - at The University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. I know you're on sabbatical right now. We're recording this on Thursday. As we speak, is there any kind of advice you're getting in North Carolina about how to behave?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that - I'll speak from the Christian tradition, which I still cherish even though I am no longer a Christian, there are aspects of Christianity that I resonate with because they're so deeply i"}
{"id": "824479587", "date": "2020-03-31", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "Heaven And Hell Are 'Not What Jesus Preached,' Religion Scholar Says", "question_index": 30, "text": "So does that mean you're not leaving the house at all?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the same advice everybody's getting who's listening to the right news sources, which is that you need to self-isolate. You simply - it is going to be a disaster for some way - somewhere, on some"}
{"id": "824479587", "date": "2020-03-31", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "Heaven And Hell Are 'Not What Jesus Preached,' Religion Scholar Says", "question_index": 31, "text": "Well, Bart Ehrman, I wish you good health, and I thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just to go out in my yard. I'll occasionally walk around the block if nobody's around. But other than that, no. We aren't using our cars. We're not going out. We're not doing anything else. We're stay"}
{"id": "824479587", "date": "2020-03-31", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "Heaven And Hell Are 'Not What Jesus Preached,' Religion Scholar Says", "question_index": 32, "text": "Thank you. Bart Ehrman's new book is called \"Heaven And Hell: The History Of The Afterlife.\" And if you're thinking, but what about this passage in the Old Testament or what about that passage in the New Testament, let me just say we only had time to touch on a few of the points in Bart Ehrman's book, so if you want to know more about what he has to say about the history of the afterlife, I refer you to his book. Bart Ehrman, thank you again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you for having me. I hope you stay safe, too."}
{"id": "824479587", "date": "2020-03-31", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "Heaven And Hell Are 'Not What Jesus Preached,' Religion Scholar Says", "question_index": 33, "text": "Bart Ehrman is the author of the new book \"Heaven And Hell: A History Of The Afterlife.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, my guest will be a doctor who has worked in war zones around the world and is now battling the pandemic, treating patients in his own country, England. I'll talk with David Nott, who's been a trauma surgeon in conflict zones, including Syria, Afghanistan, Yemen and Iraq, and trains doctors in conflict and natural disaster zones. His new memoir is called \"War Doctor: Surgery On The Front Line.\" I hope you'll join us. (SOUNDBITE OF PETROS KLAMPANIS' \"EASY COME EASY GO\")", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having me."}
{"id": "824479587", "date": "2020-03-31", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "Heaven And Hell Are 'Not What Jesus Preached,' Religion Scholar Says", "question_index": 34, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Mooj Zadie, Thea Chaloner and Seth Kelley. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Our technical director is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Adam Staniszewski. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross. (SOUNDBITE OF PETROS KLAMPANIS' \"EASY COME EASY GO\")", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having me."}
{"id": "826643761", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Bucky Pizzarelli", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Guitar Great Bucky Pizzarelli", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today, we're going to remember three people from the music world who died this week of the coronavirus. We start with jazz guitarist Bucky Pizzarelli. He died Wednesday at age 94. He was one of the great rhythm guitarists. Listening to him play was like listening to a history of jazz guitar. He played with Benny Goodman, Joe Venuti, Stephane Grappelli, Zoot Sims, Frank Sinatra, Tony Bennett, Rosemary Clooney and Peggy Lee. He played in The Tonight Show orchestra when the show was broadcast from New York. In an era when studio musicians were in demand, he was one of the most sought-after. He also recorded with his son, guitarist and singer John Pizzarelli. We'll hear an interview with John and Bucky a little later, but we'll start with a 1992 interview and performance we recorded at the Museum of Television and Radio in New York in front of a studio audience.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "826643761", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Bucky Pizzarelli", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Guitar Great Bucky Pizzarelli", "question_index": 1, "text": "Let's get started with a tune. Why don't we start with a ballad?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "826643761", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Bucky Pizzarelli", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Guitar Great Bucky Pizzarelli", "question_index": 2, "text": "That was great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd like to do a number written by Ray Noble called \"The Very Thought Of You.\""}
{"id": "826643761", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Bucky Pizzarelli", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Guitar Great Bucky Pizzarelli", "question_index": 3, "text": "I should mention, your guitar is not the kind of standard guitar; it's a seven-, not a six-string guitar.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd like to do a number written by Ray Noble called \"The Very Thought Of You.\""}
{"id": "826643761", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Bucky Pizzarelli", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Guitar Great Bucky Pizzarelli", "question_index": 4, "text": "So what do you do with the seventh string?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a seven-string guitar developed by George Van Eps, who was - who lives in California at the moment."}
{"id": "826643761", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Bucky Pizzarelli", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Guitar Great Bucky Pizzarelli", "question_index": 5, "text": "That's nice, yeah. Speaking of which, you are one of the great rhythm guitar players. For our listeners who don't know what we mean when we say rhythm guitar, play a little bit of rhythm guitar and show us what...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it gives it that low note."}
{"id": "826643761", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Bucky Pizzarelli", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Guitar Great Bucky Pizzarelli", "question_index": 6, "text": "What's the hardest thing about playing rhythm guitar?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's not doing that. He's playing..."}
{"id": "826643761", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Bucky Pizzarelli", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Guitar Great Bucky Pizzarelli", "question_index": 7, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, getting a beat out of it. You become a drummer..."}
{"id": "826643761", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Bucky Pizzarelli", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Guitar Great Bucky Pizzarelli", "question_index": 8, "text": "You know, you've had such an interesting career just playing with all the jazz musicians, doing all the studio work. I mean, I can't believe you're on sessions with Dion and the Belmonts.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...That one spot. And if you don't come down after the bass player plays the downbeat - you're playing the second and fourth beats of the bar of music. And it's that commitment. If it's a slow - the s"}
{"id": "826643761", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Bucky Pizzarelli", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Guitar Great Bucky Pizzarelli", "question_index": 9, "text": "Does that - were you into the music, or was it just a gig - you show up, you play it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "826643761", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Bucky Pizzarelli", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Guitar Great Bucky Pizzarelli", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yeah?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, really, I learned a lot from a lot of those people, you know?"}
{"id": "826643761", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Bucky Pizzarelli", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Guitar Great Bucky Pizzarelli", "question_index": 11, "text": "Barney Kessel's on a lot of them, too, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "826643761", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Bucky Pizzarelli", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Guitar Great Bucky Pizzarelli", "question_index": 12, "text": "Yeah. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, everybody."}
{"id": "826643761", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Bucky Pizzarelli", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Guitar Great Bucky Pizzarelli", "question_index": 13, "text": "You know, I put on \"Teenager In Love\" to see if I could hear you, and I heard what sounded like a banjo.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "826643761", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Bucky Pizzarelli", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Guitar Great Bucky Pizzarelli", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But all those dates were - they were more or less faked. One - we would have three or four guitar players, and one would go..."}
{"id": "826643761", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Bucky Pizzarelli", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Guitar Great Bucky Pizzarelli", "question_index": 15, "text": ". Do you miss those days when there was a lot of studio work? 'Cause there - it isn't like that anymore.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Another guy would go..."}
{"id": "826643761", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Bucky Pizzarelli", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Guitar Great Bucky Pizzarelli", "question_index": 16, "text": "That was Bucky Pizzarelli, recorded in front of a studio audience in 1992 at the Museum of Television and Radio in New York. He died Wednesday of the coronavirus at the age of 94. After we take a short break, we'll listen to the interview I recorded with Bucky and his son, guitarist and singer John Pizzarelli, in 2006. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I didn't like it because it got - the music - you know, we only played three chords. You know, you do that all year, it'd drive you up the walls."}
{"id": "826643761", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Bucky Pizzarelli", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Guitar Great Bucky Pizzarelli", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to our remembrance of jazz guitarist Bucky Pizzarelli, who died of the coronavirus Wednesday at the age of 94. His son John Pizzarelli is also a jazz guitarist, as well as a singer, who's performed on our show several times. In 2006, after John recorded an album that also featured his father, they joined us together for an interview we're about to hear. The album was called \"Dear Mr. Sinatra.\" We started with a song from the album, \"Can't We Be Friends?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I didn't like it because it got - the music - you know, we only played three chords. You know, you do that all year, it'd drive you up the walls."}
{"id": "826643761", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Bucky Pizzarelli", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Guitar Great Bucky Pizzarelli", "question_index": 18, "text": "That's from John Pizzarelli's new CD, \"Dear Mr. Sinatra.\" And we heard John singing and Bucky Pizzarelli, his father, featured on guitar. Welcome, both of you, back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I thought I found the girl of my dreams. Now it seems this is how the story ends. She's going to turn me down and say, can't we be friends? I thought for once it couldn't go wrong - not for "}
{"id": "826643761", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Bucky Pizzarelli", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Guitar Great Bucky Pizzarelli", "question_index": 19, "text": "John, on the liner notes of your new CD, you thank your father for the best thump in the business. What do you mean by that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nice to be here."}
{"id": "826643761", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Bucky Pizzarelli", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Guitar Great Bucky Pizzarelli", "question_index": 20, "text": "But, John, you play rhythm guitar yourself. So why do you prefer, on this album, for instance, to have your father playing rhythm?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "826643761", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Bucky Pizzarelli", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Guitar Great Bucky Pizzarelli", "question_index": 21, "text": "Bucky, when John was a boy, did you think at some point that one day you'd be playing on his records in addition to him playing on yours?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But in this case, that's really the reason. I mean, he's the best doing what he does. So I always try to hire the best musicians. And I can play rhythm guitar, but not like him."}
{"id": "826643761", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Bucky Pizzarelli", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Guitar Great Bucky Pizzarelli", "question_index": 22, "text": "Seriously?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "826643761", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Bucky Pizzarelli", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Guitar Great Bucky Pizzarelli", "question_index": 23, "text": "This must have been rock and not jazz.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's true."}
{"id": "826643761", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Bucky Pizzarelli", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Guitar Great Bucky Pizzarelli", "question_index": 24, "text": "So, John, what were you playing in the garage when the police were coming?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were all in the garage."}
{"id": "826643761", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Bucky Pizzarelli", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Guitar Great Bucky Pizzarelli", "question_index": 25, "text": "So what got you from there back into the kind of jazz that your father had played?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I was playing - our band just played songs that we could play that had three or four chords. So we played the Allman Brothers. We played some Eric Clapton and mostly Peter Frampton - I liked him -"}
{"id": "826643761", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Bucky Pizzarelli", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Guitar Great Bucky Pizzarelli", "question_index": 26, "text": "Bucky, when John was a boy, did you intentionally try to do things to expose him to music and to the music that you particularly loved?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was usually the other way around."}
{"id": "826643761", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Bucky Pizzarelli", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Guitar Great Bucky Pizzarelli", "question_index": 27, "text": "Obviously, you probably heard a lot of it just in the course of things. But, you know, like, some people will actually, like, make sure that they're playing certain records to their children when their children are around so that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "826643761", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Bucky Pizzarelli", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Guitar Great Bucky Pizzarelli", "question_index": 28, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No."}
{"id": "826643761", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Bucky Pizzarelli", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Guitar Great Bucky Pizzarelli", "question_index": 29, "text": "Bucky, were there things you didn't want to expose John to about your musician friends? Did they have any, like, bad habits or crude language that you didn't want to expose your son to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. They were like stars, you know? So that was sort of - that was the thing, too. If you really wanted to speak my father's language, you had to learn his songs, you know? You had to learn \"Honeysu"}
{"id": "826643761", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Bucky Pizzarelli", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Guitar Great Bucky Pizzarelli", "question_index": 30, "text": "John, how old were you when you started playing with your father?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "826643761", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Bucky Pizzarelli", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Guitar Great Bucky Pizzarelli", "question_index": 31, "text": "How did you both feel about that? John, how did you feel about playing with your father?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess it had to be 16, 17, 18 - somewhere in there is when I first - I would come on at the end of gigs that he would do as solo concerts and play either \"Chicken A La Swing\" and \"Stage Fright\" or \""}
{"id": "826643761", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Bucky Pizzarelli", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Guitar Great Bucky Pizzarelli", "question_index": 32, "text": "And, Bucky, what was it like for you to bring your son onstage? Were you convinced he was really talented at this point? Or did it just feel like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I always loved it. That was fun for me to go to the gigs. I loved hearing him play. And whoever he was playing with was fun. So I loved going with him to record dates when I was a little kid. I co"}
{"id": "826643761", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Bucky Pizzarelli", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Guitar Great Bucky Pizzarelli", "question_index": 33, "text": "...OK, I'm going to give my son a little showcase...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he had this..."}
{"id": "826643761", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Bucky Pizzarelli", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Guitar Great Bucky Pizzarelli", "question_index": 34, "text": "...Because, you know, a lot of parents just want to show off their children.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "826643761", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Bucky Pizzarelli", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Guitar Great Bucky Pizzarelli", "question_index": 35, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he had the passion. I know..."}
{"id": "826643761", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Bucky Pizzarelli", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Guitar Great Bucky Pizzarelli", "question_index": 36, "text": "Well, John, your new CD is songs associated with Frank Sinatra. But I want to go back to an earlier CD of duets between the two of you. And this is an album called \"Contrasts\" that was released back in 1998. And I thought we'd play \"Stage Fright,\" which is a composition that was originally recorded as a duet by the guitarists Carl Kress and Dick McDonough. So how did you start working this up together as a duet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...He had the passion to want to play. I knew that. So I didn't want to stop him from doing anything, you know? And then if I brought him up on stage, I knew what he was going to play. So it worked ou"}
{"id": "826643761", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Bucky Pizzarelli", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Guitar Great Bucky Pizzarelli", "question_index": 37, "text": "OK. Well, this is Bucky Pizzarelli and John Pizzarelli, father and son, from a 1998 album called Contrasts.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", we'd have it all worked out. But it was - this is really, like, one of the first things that we played together."}
{"id": "826643761", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Bucky Pizzarelli", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Guitar Great Bucky Pizzarelli", "question_index": 38, "text": "How would you each describe your guitar styles? How would you compare them? Bucky, how would you compare your style and John's?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", we'd have it all worked out. But it was - this is really, like, one of the first things that we played together."}
{"id": "826643761", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Bucky Pizzarelli", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Guitar Great Bucky Pizzarelli", "question_index": 39, "text": "John, how would you compare your style to your father's?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. And, I mean, everything was a big-band setting for me."}
{"id": "826643761", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Bucky Pizzarelli", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Guitar Great Bucky Pizzarelli", "question_index": 40, "text": "Bucky and John Pizzarelli, recorded in 2006. Bucky Pizzarelli died of the coronavirus Wednesday at the age of 94. We send our sympathies to John and the rest of Bucky's family and friends. After we take a short break, we remember two other people from the music world who died of COVID-19 this week - pianist and educator Ellis Marsalis, the patriarch of the music family that includes Wynton and Branford Marsalis; and Adam Schlesinger, who co-founded the band Fountains of Wayne, wrote songs for the movies \"That Thing You Do!\" and \"Music And Lyrics\" and for the TV show \"Crazy Ex-Girlfriend.\" I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's something inside his hands that's where his sound comes from. So there's something about his style that captures every guitar player who listens to him."}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're going to continue our remembrance of some musicians we lost this week to COVID-19. Adam Schlesinger was 52 when he died Wednesday. As Stephen Thompson of NPR Music wrote, Schlesinger's work spread joy and kindhearted humor. He co-founded the band Fountains of Wayne, was nominated for an Oscar for writing the title song for Tom Hanks' film \"That Thing You Do!,\" wrote songs for the Drew Barrymore-Hugh Grant rom-com \"Music And Lyrics\" and won three Emmys for his songs for the TV series \"Crazy Ex-Girlfriend.\" He also co-wrote a song that I think is one of the best Tony Award ceremony moments ever. It was in 2011, when Neil Patrick Harris hosted. Here's Harris performing that song. It's a tribute to Broadway called \"It's Not Just For Gays Anymore.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 1, "text": "That was Neil Patrick Harris hosting the Tonys in 2011, singing a song co-written by Adam Schlesinger and D.J. Javerbaum, a former head writer for \"The Daily Show With Jon Stewart.\" In 1999, I spoke with Schlesinger and his partner in the band Fountains of Wayne, Chris Collingwood. We started with the title track of the album they just released, \"Utopia Parkway.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) If you feel like someone that this world excludes, it's no longer only for dudes who like dudes. Attention every breeder, you're invited to the theater. It's not just for gays anymore. The g"}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 2, "text": "Chris Collingwood, Adam Schlesinger, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Well, I've been saving for a custom van, and I've been playing in a cover band. And my baby doesn't understand why I never turned from boy to man. I got it made. I got it down. I am the king"}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 3, "text": "What's the story behind this song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having us."}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 4, "text": "Before you guys actually succeeded as a band, did you think that you were going to be in this perpetual state of adolescence and never quite making it as a band but being stuck in that place?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The song is about a guy who's playing in a cover band, and he's sort of a little bit too old to be playing in a rock band but can't quite give up the dream of it. And it was kind of making fun of myse"}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 5, "text": "That song is from your new CD, and I'm wondering if you think that you've headed in a new direction on the new CD from the first one.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) It's that time of year. Right?"}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 6, "text": "Well, don't sell that first album short. I really like it. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For us, it's not really a new direction; it's actually more of an old direction because we played in a series of bands together before we even started Fountains of Wayne. I mean, we've been playing to"}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 7, "text": "When that record came out, when your first record came out, rock critic Robert Christgau said that he thinks you sing the kind of words every shy guy who didn't get the girl thinks of.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I don't mean it that way. I mean, you know, the first album was just - it was written in about a week. It was recorded in about another week. And it was just this kind of blast of energy. And I th"}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 8, "text": "And I think a good illustration of that point is the song \"Leave The Biker,\" which is a really catchy song. Why don't we play that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is \"Leave The Biker\" from the first Fountains of Wayne CD.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right."}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 10, "text": "That's from the first Fountains of Wayne CD. Do you think Robert Christgau was onto something? Do you think of yourselves as former shy guys who didn't get the girl?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Seems the further from town I go, the more I hate this place. He's got leather and big tattoos, scars all over his face. And I wonder if ever has cried 'cause he couldn't get a date for the "}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 11, "text": "Too much, you mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think there's a lot made out of that, actually. And it's funny because..."}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 12, "text": "Oh, but it's catchy. I don't think - I think it's a good song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And - you know, I mean, to some degree, it might have been a mistake to put that song on the record because I'd hate to sort of go down in history as this joke songwriter."}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well, there's nice lines in the song, like the line about the guy having crumbs in his beard from the seafood special.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it is. And, I mean, I think the thing is that, you know, obviously, that song's supposed to be fun. And a lot of them are. But at the same time, you know, people, especially in America - I think m"}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, there's that line - I wonder if he's ever cried because he couldn't get a date for the prom. And then there's a prom song on your new CD also that I think is kind of mocking that stereotyped emotion you're supposed to have on the prom. Like, this is the crowning moment of my life, and after this, I'm going to, like, have a receding hairline and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the main thing with that whole sort of geeky sort of tag or whatever is that neither of us would be comfortable writing a song that had a really kind of macho, aggressive pose to it. It defini"}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 15, "text": "...You know, just work all the time, and life will be over. It's, like, the oldest cliche in the book about how you're supposed to feel on prom night.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I actually went to two high school proms. I went to my own, and then I went to the prom at the high school my girlfriend at the time went out on Long Island. And they were both pretty much ident"}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 17, "text": "We're remembering Adam Schlesinger, who died Wednesday of COVID-19. We're listening to the 1999 interview I recorded with Schlesinger and Chris Collingwood, with whom Schlesinger co-founded the band Fountains of Wayne. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And she never really forgave me, you know? I think that was the beginning of the end of our relationship."}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're remembering Adam Schlesinger, who died Wednesday of the coronavirus. Let's get back to my 1999 interview with him and Chris Collingwood. They co-founded the band Fountains of Wayne.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And she never really forgave me, you know? I think that was the beginning of the end of our relationship."}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 19, "text": "How did you first meet? You've been playing together a long time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And she never really forgave me, you know? I think that was the beginning of the end of our relationship."}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 20, "text": "Such as? Such as?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...To the present, most of which were incredibly terrible, and they all had really horrible names. And we actually..."}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Three People who when Standing Side by Side Have a Wingspan of Over 12 Feet..."}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 22, "text": "Why did you call the band that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Are You My Mother."}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 23, "text": "Well, how did you come up with Fountains of Wayne? And why is that the name that stuck?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The silly thing is that Fountains of Wayne was just one of these - you know, in the pile of names that we would just kind of rotate, and that ended up being the one that we got stuck with. But I kind "}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 24, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And she was always full of, you know, really horrible ideas for, you know, things we should do to help the band out. So she would suggest these terrible names. And we'd say, oh, God. That's a horrible"}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 25, "text": "Was she offering to get you on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My family was always saying, you know, why don't you go on that \"David Letterman Show?\" That seems to do those bands a lot of good."}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 26, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK, I'll just call him up."}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 27, "text": "Your knowledge of rock and pop goes back a long way. And I'm wondering, what - do you remember the first records you each bought?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, she's just - you know, that was her idea for promotion."}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 28, "text": "Oh, you - oh, God. We had to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The first record I ever bought was this exercise record that they made us buy in first grade. It was called \"Chicken Fat.\""}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 29, "text": "...Listen to that, too. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Do you know that record?"}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 30, "text": "Ten times.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was like, (singing) pushups every morning..."}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 31, "text": "One, two.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Not just now and then - 10 times."}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 32, "text": "Oh, give that chicken right back - give that chicken fat back to the chicken, and don't be chicken again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And they make you exercise to it. And then they'd also make you buy it."}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 33, "text": "No, \"Chicken Fat.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Chicken Fat.\""}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 34, "text": "It was this really funny...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Chicken Fat.\""}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 35, "text": "It was this military-style workout record, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Kill the weak."}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 36, "text": "So you really liked it? This is an influence on your music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's just horrible."}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 37, "text": "Tell me again why you brought it up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I never said I liked it."}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 38, "text": "Oh, and they made you buy it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You asked us the first record we ever bought."}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 39, "text": "They made you buy it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 40, "text": "That's right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was forced purchase."}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 41, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I should suggest to our record company that strategy of forcing first-graders to buy our album."}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 42, "text": "That's a good idea.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because there's a lot of first-graders out there, you know, and they've all got lunch money."}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 43, "text": "Adam, I have a question for you. You wrote that song \"That Thing You Do\" for the Tom Hanks movie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Why bring this whole record thing into it?"}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 44, "text": "And I thought that was a surprisingly good movie that had a really kind of knowing and loving sense of '60s pop.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did."}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 45, "text": "What - how did you come to write the song? Was there, like, a national audition being held for the song or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 46, "text": "Yeah. And the movie's about a band that's a one-hit wonder, and the only hit that they have is this song, \"That Thing You Do,\" and it's a really catchy record. What did you think about when you wrote this song, knowing that it needed to be a period song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not really. I mean, it was just - somebody in the music business that I work with at a music publishing company heard about the movie and said that, you know, they were looking for a song that kind of"}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 47, "text": "Adam Schlesinger and Chris Collingwood founded the band Fountains of Wayne. Our interview was recorded in 1999. Schlesinger died Wednesday of COVID-19. He was 52. Our sympathies to his family and everyone who was close to him. Here's \"That Thing You Do.\" I love this song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that kind of stuff, you know, trying to capitalize on what The Beatles had done. So that's what I was going for."}
{"id": "826654716", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Fountains Of Wayne Co-Founder Adam Schlesinger", "question_index": 48, "text": "After a break, we'll remember musician and educator Ellis Marsalis and hear a couple of the things his sons Wynton and Branford said about him on our show. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You doing that thing you do, breaking my heart into a million pieces, like you always do. And you don't mean to be cruel. You never even knew about the heartache I've been going through. Wel"}
{"id": "826670653", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Branford Marsalis", "title": "Branford And Wynton Marsalis Reflect On Their Father, Jazz Patriarch Ellis Marsalis", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "826670653", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Branford Marsalis", "title": "Branford And Wynton Marsalis Reflect On Their Father, Jazz Patriarch Ellis Marsalis", "question_index": 1, "text": "We end today's show of remembrances by listening to what Wynton and Branford Marsalis had to say on our show about their father, pianist and educator Ellis Marsalis, who died of COVID-19 on Wednesday. He was 85. Ellis was the patriarch of one of New Orleans' most famous jazz families that also included his sons Delfeayo and Jason. In 2011, the National Endowment for the Arts named Ellis Marsalis and his four musician sons jazz masters. That was the first time the highest honor for an American jazz musician was actually given to a group. Here's an excerpt of my 2002 interview with Branford Marsalis, in which he spoke about his father.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "826670653", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Branford Marsalis", "title": "Branford And Wynton Marsalis Reflect On Their Father, Jazz Patriarch Ellis Marsalis", "question_index": 2, "text": "You grew up in what is now America's, probably, most famous jazz family, The Marsalis Family. Your father Ellis Marsalis is a pianist. When you were growing up, liking the pop music that you liked, did you feel about his music the way, say, I felt about my father's old Benny Goodman records?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "826670653", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Branford Marsalis", "title": "Branford And Wynton Marsalis Reflect On Their Father, Jazz Patriarch Ellis Marsalis", "question_index": 3, "text": "Oh, yeah. I guess I didn't - I really disliked them until I got much older. Well, in my 20s, anyways.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "826670653", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Branford Marsalis", "title": "Branford And Wynton Marsalis Reflect On Their Father, Jazz Patriarch Ellis Marsalis", "question_index": 4, "text": "You just didn't care.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Jazz is not for kids. And I know that's - there's an argument. My brother says jazz can be for kids. I don't think - jazz has a level of sophistication that's just way too hip for kids. It's not a mus"}
{"id": "826670653", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Branford Marsalis", "title": "Branford And Wynton Marsalis Reflect On Their Father, Jazz Patriarch Ellis Marsalis", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And turn on the television in the other room until it was my turn to listen to my music. And then I'd put on Cheech and Chong..."}
{"id": "826670653", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Branford Marsalis", "title": "Branford And Wynton Marsalis Reflect On Their Father, Jazz Patriarch Ellis Marsalis", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And Elton John and, you know, James Brown, whatever I wanted to put on. And my father would stay out. And then when James Brown came on, he'd come in and say, yeah, kid, yeah, Jack, I like that."}
{"id": "826670653", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Branford Marsalis", "title": "Branford And Wynton Marsalis Reflect On Their Father, Jazz Patriarch Ellis Marsalis", "question_index": 7, "text": "That's great. Yeah. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then he would always dance to it. When he danced to it, he would snap his fingers on two and four, which was the funniest thing in the world, you know?"}
{"id": "826670653", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Branford Marsalis", "title": "Branford And Wynton Marsalis Reflect On Their Father, Jazz Patriarch Ellis Marsalis", "question_index": 8, "text": "It's on the one.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Cold Sweat's\" going on, you know? (Singing) Like a cold sweat (vocalizing). My father's going, yeah (vocalizing). I'm like, no, Dad. It's just funny."}
{"id": "826670653", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Branford Marsalis", "title": "Branford And Wynton Marsalis Reflect On Their Father, Jazz Patriarch Ellis Marsalis", "question_index": 9, "text": "That was Branford Marsalis talking about his father Ellis. Here's what Wynton Marsalis had to say about Ellis Marsalis on our show in 1994.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. It was just classic."}
{"id": "826670653", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Branford Marsalis", "title": "Branford And Wynton Marsalis Reflect On Their Father, Jazz Patriarch Ellis Marsalis", "question_index": 10, "text": "You know, your father Ellis Marsalis, the pianist, he played mostly in New Orleans. Was that by choice or by necessity?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. It was just classic."}
{"id": "826670653", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Branford Marsalis", "title": "Branford And Wynton Marsalis Reflect On Their Father, Jazz Patriarch Ellis Marsalis", "question_index": 11, "text": "So he would've preferred to be on the road.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was mainly by necessity. It was hard for him - it's hard to get gigs, first, playing jazz music. And he was struggling in New Orleans. So I'm sure if he had the choice, he wouldn't have cho"}
{"id": "826670653", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Branford Marsalis", "title": "Branford And Wynton Marsalis Reflect On Their Father, Jazz Patriarch Ellis Marsalis", "question_index": 12, "text": "Did that discourage you from becoming a jazz musician?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just any way to play and make more money than he was making, to support his family more. I'm sure he would have preferred that."}
{"id": "826670653", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Branford Marsalis", "title": "Branford And Wynton Marsalis Reflect On Their Father, Jazz Patriarch Ellis Marsalis", "question_index": 13, "text": "It's probably going to be hard for a lot of people to understand how a pianist or any jazz music musician can go without working in New Orleans, but I guess a lot of the New Orleans music that paid was a traditional, tourist-oriented jazz.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, because, you know, my daddy loved the music. And I remember asking him once when he, like, was down to his last gig and he was contemplating driving a cab or getting some type of day job whether h"}
{"id": "826670653", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Branford Marsalis", "title": "Branford And Wynton Marsalis Reflect On Their Father, Jazz Patriarch Ellis Marsalis", "question_index": 14, "text": "Dixieland.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. My father was..."}
{"id": "826670653", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Branford Marsalis", "title": "Branford And Wynton Marsalis Reflect On Their Father, Jazz Patriarch Ellis Marsalis", "question_index": 15, "text": "No, no. But I mean the commercialization of New Orleans music...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We just called it New Orleans music. You know, New Orleans musicians hate to be called Dixieland musicians."}
{"id": "826670653", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Branford Marsalis", "title": "Branford And Wynton Marsalis Reflect On Their Father, Jazz Patriarch Ellis Marsalis", "question_index": 16, "text": "...That's probably what there were more jobs for.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "826670653", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Branford Marsalis", "title": "Branford And Wynton Marsalis Reflect On Their Father, Jazz Patriarch Ellis Marsalis", "question_index": 17, "text": "Wynton Marsalis talking about his father, pianist and educator Ellis Marsalis, on our show in 1994. Ellis Marsalis died of the coronavirus Wednesday. He was 85. Our sympathies to his family. And we send our best wishes for recovery to everyone who is sick and to their loved ones and sympathies to those who have lost loved ones.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And he - my father played a traditional job for a while with the Storyville Jazz Band. They played in a club called Crazy Shirley's. But then when that gig ended - he really was a modern jazz mu"}
{"id": "826670653", "date": "2020-04-03", "guest": "Branford Marsalis", "title": "Branford And Wynton Marsalis Reflect On Their Father, Jazz Patriarch Ellis Marsalis", "question_index": 18, "text": "Monday on FRESH AIR, my guest will be Kerry Washington, who's starring with Reese Witherspoon in \"Little Fires Everywhere,\" which is streaming on Hulu and is one of the new streaming series many people isolating at home are watching. Washington also starred in the hit ABC series \"Scandal\" as a political fixer. She served on President Obama's council on the arts and humanities. We'll talk about the new series, her life and how her life has changed in the COVID era. I hope you'll join us. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Mooj Zadie, Thea Chaloner and Seth Kelley. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Our technical director is Audrey Bentham, who is our engineer this week along with Adam Staniszewski. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And he - my father played a traditional job for a while with the Storyville Jazz Band. They played in a club called Crazy Shirley's. But then when that gig ended - he really was a modern jazz mu"}
{"id": "829955754", "date": "2020-04-09", "guest": "Chesa Boudin", "title": "How San Francisco's D.A. Is Decreasing The Jail Population Amid COVID-19", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. It's difficult or impossible to practice social distancing in an overcrowded prison, which is dangerous not only for the people who are incarcerated but also for the guards and other prison staff and for the families and communities they return home to. This is an issue of special concern for my guest, San Francisco's new DA Chesa Boudin. He's concerned about the health of prisoners in San Francisco jails and about the health of his 75-year-old father David Gilbert, who's in prison in New York. In 1981, Gilbert and Chesa's mother, Kathy Boudin, who were radical leftists, were arrested for driving the getaway car in a botched armed robbery of a Brink's truck. Two police officers and a guard were shot to death. Chesa Boudin was 14 months old when his parents started serving time. He was raised by his parents' friends Bill Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn, who were part of the radical group the Weather Underground, lived underground for years and later became educators active in education reform. Kathy Boudin was released on parole the same year that Chesa Boudin was leaving Yale for Oxford as a Rhodes scholar. That was in 2003. Chesa Boudin is now one of a growing number of DA's advocating reforms in the criminal justice system to reduce mass incarceration and address the racial and economic inequities in the system. Chesa Boudin, welcome to FRESH AIR. How is your father?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "829955754", "date": "2020-04-09", "guest": "Chesa Boudin", "title": "How San Francisco's D.A. Is Decreasing The Jail Population Amid COVID-19", "question_index": 1, "text": "He's in a single cell, but the cell is so small, it's still impossible to practice social distancing. Would you describe the problem?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My father, David Gilbert, is incarcerated in a New York state prison. He's 75 years old, and I suppose he's doing well under the circumstances. As you're aware, the CDC has set a marker for high-risk "}
{"id": "829955754", "date": "2020-04-09", "guest": "Chesa Boudin", "title": "How San Francisco's D.A. Is Decreasing The Jail Population Amid COVID-19", "question_index": 2, "text": "So I know in the early days of the pandemic, you were worried about your father using the phone in prison, because there's, like, one phone for his unit. It doesn't work great, so you basically have to put your mouth really close to the phone in order to be heard. And, of course, that violates all the ways you're supposed to protect yourself against either transmitting or getting the virus. I don't know if that's even an option for him now. I mean, is the prison in lockdown? Does he even have access to a phone?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. My father's lucky compared to most people who are incarcerated in that he does have his own cell. But, as is often the case, it's not a closed cell. It has an open wall of bars that open"}
{"id": "829955754", "date": "2020-04-09", "guest": "Chesa Boudin", "title": "How San Francisco's D.A. Is Decreasing The Jail Population Amid COVID-19", "question_index": 3, "text": "So I know you're worried about your father, who is in a New York prison. As the DA of San Francisco, you're concerned about the San Francisco County Jail, too. So how big is the outbreak in the jail in San Francisco?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My father does have some access to phones. It's different and more limited than his usual access. He is, at my request, taking extreme precaution when he uses the phone and, frankly, every time he lea"}
{"id": "829955754", "date": "2020-04-09", "guest": "Chesa Boudin", "title": "How San Francisco's D.A. Is Decreasing The Jail Population Amid COVID-19", "question_index": 4, "text": "So you've reduced the inmate population in the San Francisco jail by about 40%, and I think the number is now approximately, like, 750, 760, something like that. What did you do to reduce the population?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We've taken bold, aggressive action to make sure that there is not an outbreak in the San Francisco County Jail. San Francisco and the Bay Area, I think we're way ahead of the curve nationally in term"}
{"id": "829955754", "date": "2020-04-09", "guest": "Chesa Boudin", "title": "How San Francisco's D.A. Is Decreasing The Jail Population Amid COVID-19", "question_index": 5, "text": "So you are an advocate of criminal justice reform. And among the reforms that you have advocated and begun to undertake is changing the bail system so that, instead of cash bail, whether you get to stay out of jail while you're awaiting trial is based on risk and not on wealth. How far are you along in trying to do that in San Francisco?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Basically, what we did, Terry, was we analyzed the entire jail population in numerous different segments or slices. We came up with lists of people who met certain criteria that we wanted to focus on,"}
{"id": "829955754", "date": "2020-04-09", "guest": "Chesa Boudin", "title": "How San Francisco's D.A. Is Decreasing The Jail Population Amid COVID-19", "question_index": 6, "text": "William Barr, attorney general, has expanded early release of inmates in prisons that have large outbreaks in Louisiana, Connecticut and Ohio. But he also wrote, the last thing our massively overburdened police forces need right now is the indiscriminate release of thousands of prisoners into the streets without any verification that those prisoners will follow the laws when released. Do you share his concerns?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The problem with money bail, for those who aren't familiar with it, is that it puts a price tag on freedom. It says to someone who is wealthy that no matter how dangerous you are, you can buy your way"}
{"id": "829955754", "date": "2020-04-09", "guest": "Chesa Boudin", "title": "How San Francisco's D.A. Is Decreasing The Jail Population Amid COVID-19", "question_index": 7, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is San Francisco's new DA Chesa Boudin. We'll talk more after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when framed that way, I do share it. But I think the key here is indiscriminate. What we're doing in San Francisco and what we're doing with other criminal justice partners across the state and "}
{"id": "829955754", "date": "2020-04-09", "guest": "Chesa Boudin", "title": "How San Francisco's D.A. Is Decreasing The Jail Population Amid COVID-19", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Chesa Boudin, San Francisco's new DA, who's dealing with the impact of COVID-19 on the city's criminal justice system. You're an advocate and a practitioner of criminal justice reform. Your parents spent decades in prison. Your father's still in prison, and your mother was released on parole in 2003. Your mother's father - your maternal grandfather - was Leonard Boudin, a pretty famous civil liberties lawyer. And his clients included Julian Bond, Paul Robeson, Benjamin Spock, Daniel Ellsberg. Do you think having, like, parents who were in prison, guardians who raised you who were radical leftists who lived underground for a while, then having a grandfather who was a civil liberties lawyer - do you think that whole constellation of family is what motivated you to dedicate your life to criminal justice reform?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when framed that way, I do share it. But I think the key here is indiscriminate. What we're doing in San Francisco and what we're doing with other criminal justice partners across the state and "}
{"id": "829955754", "date": "2020-04-09", "guest": "Chesa Boudin", "title": "How San Francisco's D.A. Is Decreasing The Jail Population Amid COVID-19", "question_index": 9, "text": "So your parents were convicted of being part of an armed robbery of a Brink's truck in 1981 that resulted in the death of two police officers and one guard. I mean, it is really so tragic that these three people died. What was the political motivation for doing this armed robbery? And once you have guns, there's always the likelihood somebody is going to get killed even if you didn't plan on taking any life. You're holding up a truck of money and robbing it with police officers. I mean, the odds of a shootout are pretty high. So what were they thinking? Do you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Politics has always been personal for me. You know, growing up, I was in a very politically conscious household. We engaged with intellectuals and artists and academics from around the world who were "}
{"id": "829955754", "date": "2020-04-09", "guest": "Chesa Boudin", "title": "How San Francisco's D.A. Is Decreasing The Jail Population Amid COVID-19", "question_index": 10, "text": "So do you understand what your parents' political motivation was when they participated in the armed robbery?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was 14 months old, and I was at the babysitter when this happened. I couldn't even talk. I had no idea, of course, what my parents were doing that day. But let me first start by saying that I condem"}
{"id": "829955754", "date": "2020-04-09", "guest": "Chesa Boudin", "title": "How San Francisco's D.A. Is Decreasing The Jail Population Amid COVID-19", "question_index": 11, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Chesa Boudin, San Francisco's new DA, who's dealing with the impact of COVID-19 on the city's criminal justice system. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My parents were shaped by the Vietnam War and the civil rights movement, and my parents were inspired by Martin Luther King and by Malcolm X and by the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee in the"}
{"id": "829955754", "date": "2020-04-09", "guest": "Chesa Boudin", "title": "How San Francisco's D.A. Is Decreasing The Jail Population Amid COVID-19", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Chesa Boudin, San Francisco's new district attorney. He's dealing with the impact of COVID-19 on the city's criminal justice system and is a longtime advocate of criminal justice reform to address racial and economic inequities in the system. His father is in prison. Both his parents, David Gilbert and Kathy Boudin, were radical leftists who were convicted for driving the getaway car in a 1981 botched armed robbery of a Brink's truck that resulted in the deaths of two police officers and a guard. Kathy Boudin was released on parole in 2003, the same year that Chesa Boudin became a Rhodes scholar. She is now the co-director and co-founder of the Columbia University Center for Justice. Chesa Boudin was raised by his parents' friends Bill Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn, who are former members of the radical leftist group the Weather Underground and became educators and education reformers. There are so many children now who have parents who are incarcerated. What was the experience like for you, as a child, making so many visits to see your parents in prison, being searched before going in, seeing the conditions your parents were living in? Did it become a kind of normal thing for you? Or was it always upsetting to see that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My parents were shaped by the Vietnam War and the civil rights movement, and my parents were inspired by Martin Luther King and by Malcolm X and by the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee in the"}
{"id": "829955754", "date": "2020-04-09", "guest": "Chesa Boudin", "title": "How San Francisco's D.A. Is Decreasing The Jail Population Amid COVID-19", "question_index": 13, "text": "Did you ever meet those families?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In many ways, my experience was normal. It became normal to me the way it does to so many American families. Approximately 50% of adult Americans have an immediate family member who is either currentl"}
{"id": "829955754", "date": "2020-04-09", "guest": "Chesa Boudin", "title": "How San Francisco's D.A. Is Decreasing The Jail Population Amid COVID-19", "question_index": 14, "text": "It must've been kind of confusing for you as a kid to be raised in a stable family, to have a grandfather who was a famous civil liberties lawyer, but to be stigmatized by a lot of people who you grew up with because your parents were in prison. At the same time, when you'd visit your parents in prison, you felt very privileged by comparison. So you were kind of different in either world, in both of those worlds.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have met some extended members of those families. We've been in contact indirectly through city leaders and clergy in their communities, and we've been in some email contact over the years. Yeah, I "}
{"id": "829955754", "date": "2020-04-09", "guest": "Chesa Boudin", "title": "How San Francisco's D.A. Is Decreasing The Jail Population Amid COVID-19", "question_index": 15, "text": "Were you traumatized by that as a kid? Did you have nightmares about prison?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I often felt like I had one foot shackled to the American prison system because of my parents' incarceration and another foot firmly rooted in the luxuries and privileges of the American dream - a sta"}
{"id": "829955754", "date": "2020-04-09", "guest": "Chesa Boudin", "title": "How San Francisco's D.A. Is Decreasing The Jail Population Amid COVID-19", "question_index": 16, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is San Francisco's new DA, Chesa Boudin, who's part of the movement of progressive prosecutors working to reform the criminal justice system. We'll be back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had nightmares, temper tantrums. I had anxiety attacks. I was set back in a variety of basic developmental markers. I stopped talking after my parents' arrest. I didn't fully learn to read until I w"}
{"id": "829955754", "date": "2020-04-09", "guest": "Chesa Boudin", "title": "How San Francisco's D.A. Is Decreasing The Jail Population Amid COVID-19", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Chesa Boudin, San Francisco's new DA who's dealing with the impact of COVID-19 on the city's criminal justice system. He's also active in the movement to reform the criminal justice system. His father, who is 75 now, is in prison in New York. So it's interesting that you decided to become a prosecutor because, you know, your parents were in prison. Your adoptive parents, Bill Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn, they were members of the Weather Underground. And your father participated in bombings kind of some - intended to be, I think, symbolic bombings, but still bombings of buildings that were symbolic of the power that they were imposing. This was the era of the Vietnam War. So there's a bombing of the Pentagon, of the Capitol building, of a New York City police headquarters. So I - your father says they worked hard to make sure no one was injured. I'm not sure if anybody ever was injured during those bombings. But still, like, your adoptive parents and your parents were people who intentionally broke the law for politically motivated reasons, reasons a lot of people would say that these are the wrong tactics to accomplish those goals. But still, you became a prosecutor. It would be hard to imagine - like, for me to imagine, anyways - your parents or your adoptive parents becoming prosecutors. So what led you into becoming a - into, you know, becoming a prosecutor?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had nightmares, temper tantrums. I had anxiety attacks. I was set back in a variety of basic developmental markers. I stopped talking after my parents' arrest. I didn't fully learn to read until I w"}
{"id": "829955754", "date": "2020-04-09", "guest": "Chesa Boudin", "title": "How San Francisco's D.A. Is Decreasing The Jail Population Amid COVID-19", "question_index": 18, "text": "I would imagine that you grew up with a lot of suspicion of police officers and people in the criminal justice system, of prosecutors because, again, your parents were behind bars, serving long sentences - a life sentence in your father's case - for their participation in a politically motivated robbery of a Brink's truck that led to three deaths. And your adoptive parents lived underground for a long time. They were members of the Weather Underground. And your father participated in acts of bombing in ways that he hoped wouldn't injure anybody. So did you grow up very suspicious of people in law enforcement? And then there was also, of course, the FBI, who was spying on a lot of left-wing movements, including your father? Or including your adoptive father, including Bill Ayers, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My earliest memories are going through steel gates and metal detectors just to give my parents a hug. My whole life has been shaped by the criminal justice system because of the mistakes that my paren"}
{"id": "829955754", "date": "2020-04-09", "guest": "Chesa Boudin", "title": "How San Francisco's D.A. Is Decreasing The Jail Population Amid COVID-19", "question_index": 19, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And just to be clear, when you're talking about the bombings, you're talking about my adoptive father, not my biological father who was incarcerated."}
{"id": "829955754", "date": "2020-04-09", "guest": "Chesa Boudin", "title": "How San Francisco's D.A. Is Decreasing The Jail Population Amid COVID-19", "question_index": 20, "text": "Your parents found ways in prison to do good work. Your mother started an education and literacy program in prison, and your father, I think, started a program for prisoners with AIDS. I think your mother started, also, a program for incarcerated mothers. Was that encouraging to you to think that even in prison you could find a way to be helpful and productive and that your parents managed to find ways of doing that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, again, you know, I've been really clear today and throughout my life that I don't endorse or support many of the choices my parents made. I condemn the use of violence as a tool for social change"}
{"id": "829955754", "date": "2020-04-09", "guest": "Chesa Boudin", "title": "How San Francisco's D.A. Is Decreasing The Jail Population Amid COVID-19", "question_index": 21, "text": "Your mother got out of prison in 2003 on parole, and it was just about at the same time that you became a Rhodes scholar. So I think within two weeks, she got out of prison and then you went to Oxford to pursue your work as a Rhodes scholar. What were those two weeks like for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Both of my parents were really active within prison and finding ways to give back and be supportive of their communities. My father pioneered a prisoner education program for people with A"}
{"id": "829955754", "date": "2020-04-09", "guest": "Chesa Boudin", "title": "How San Francisco's D.A. Is Decreasing The Jail Population Amid COVID-19", "question_index": 22, "text": "She is now the co-director and co-founder of the Center for Justice at Columbia University. So she managed to carve out a very good and productive, meaningful place for herself. Were you surprised that she would able to do that after spending so many years in prison?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a pretty emotionally intense period. I was actually on a visit in my father's prison when I got the news that my mother had been physically released. We knew she'd been granted parole, but we d"}
{"id": "829955754", "date": "2020-04-09", "guest": "Chesa Boudin", "title": "How San Francisco's D.A. Is Decreasing The Jail Population Amid COVID-19", "question_index": 23, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is San Francisco's new DA Chesa Boudin. We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The transition back to the community after incarceration is always challenging, and it was challenging for my mother. But I never had a doubt in my mind about her ability to succeed. She's a hard work"}
{"id": "829955754", "date": "2020-04-09", "guest": "Chesa Boudin", "title": "How San Francisco's D.A. Is Decreasing The Jail Population Amid COVID-19", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Chesa Boudin, San Francisco's new DA who's dealing with the impact of COVID-19 on the city's criminal justice system. During the years when both of your parents were incarcerated and in separate prisons and they couldn't communicate, were you kind of the go-between? Did they give you messages? Did your father give you messages for your mother and vice versa to relay?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The transition back to the community after incarceration is always challenging, and it was challenging for my mother. But I never had a doubt in my mind about her ability to succeed. She's a hard work"}
{"id": "829955754", "date": "2020-04-09", "guest": "Chesa Boudin", "title": "How San Francisco's D.A. Is Decreasing The Jail Population Amid COVID-19", "question_index": 25, "text": "That's very sweet to look at it together at the same time but separate.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. My parents did sometimes communicate through me, send love to each other through me. And when I'd be visiting one of my parents, we'd often coordinate in advance to look at the sun or look at th"}
{"id": "829955754", "date": "2020-04-09", "guest": "Chesa Boudin", "title": "How San Francisco's D.A. Is Decreasing The Jail Population Amid COVID-19", "question_index": 26, "text": "What were the stories about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My parents found countless creative ways to parent, even from the distance that incarceration created. On phone calls, they would tell me adventure stories. And they would plan the stories, the plotli"}
{"id": "829955754", "date": "2020-04-09", "guest": "Chesa Boudin", "title": "How San Francisco's D.A. Is Decreasing The Jail Population Amid COVID-19", "question_index": 27, "text": "Did you enjoy the stories?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All different kinds of adventures - boating down the Amazon River, traveling through Africa, you know, the kinds of things that any parents would tell adventure stories to their kids about - having su"}
{"id": "829955754", "date": "2020-04-09", "guest": "Chesa Boudin", "title": "How San Francisco's D.A. Is Decreasing The Jail Population Amid COVID-19", "question_index": 28, "text": "I didn't know this until we started talking today - after we'd set up the interview and after I had prepared - but your father has applied for clemency. So what grounds is he asking for clemency on, and is it connected at all to COVID-19?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I loved them. I looked forward to those calls. I couldn't wait for the next call from the next parent to tell me the next chapter."}
{"id": "829955754", "date": "2020-04-09", "guest": "Chesa Boudin", "title": "How San Francisco's D.A. Is Decreasing The Jail Population Amid COVID-19", "question_index": 29, "text": "This might be too personal, but if your father succeeds in getting clemency and is released, do you think that he and your mother would resume their marriage? They haven't been together in so long. I don't know how often she visits him, if at all. I don't know if they still consider themselves to be partners.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is related to COVID-19, Terry. My father and a number of other older, medically vulnerable inmates have applied for clemency. And I'm aware of efforts within New York state to review those clemency"}
{"id": "829955754", "date": "2020-04-09", "guest": "Chesa Boudin", "title": "How San Francisco's D.A. Is Decreasing The Jail Population Amid COVID-19", "question_index": 30, "text": "Chesa Boudin, I want to thank you so much. And I wish you well. I wish your father well.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They have a very close relationship, but it was obviously damaged by the decades that they both spent in prison, the decades that my father has spent in prison since her release. They weren't really a"}
{"id": "829955754", "date": "2020-04-09", "guest": "Chesa Boudin", "title": "How San Francisco's D.A. Is Decreasing The Jail Population Amid COVID-19", "question_index": 31, "text": "Chesa Boudin is San Francisco's DA. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll remember songwriter and singer John Prine, who died Tuesday of COVID-19. He was 73. He was inducted into the Songwriters Hall of Fame in June. We'll listen back to the interview we recorded in 2018. I hope you'll join us. We're closing today's show with music produced by Hal Willner. He died yesterday at the age of 64. His symptoms were consistent with COVID-19, but he was not officially diagnosed. What we're hearing now is pianist Jaki Byard playing the theme from the Fellini film \"Amarcord,\" a track from Willner's tribute album to Nino Rota, who wrote music for several Fellini films.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. It's a pleasure. Always happy to talk with you. Hope we can do it again soon. And hope you all are staying safe out there."}
{"id": "829955754", "date": "2020-04-09", "guest": "Chesa Boudin", "title": "How San Francisco's D.A. Is Decreasing The Jail Population Amid COVID-19", "question_index": 32, "text": "Willner was a longtime music supervisor on \"Saturday Night Live,\" produced albums by Lou Reed, Marianne Faithfull, Lucinda Williams, Bill Frisell and others and curated great tribute albums for which he got musicians and singers he loved to record the music of composers and genres he loved. In addition to the Rota tribute album, Willner recorded albums paying tribute to Thelonious Monk, Kurt Weill, Disney films and sea chanteys. Over the years, we've often played music from his tribute albums at the end of our show or between segments. Here's one more track that Hal Willner was responsible for. This is Lou Reed singing \"September Song\" from Willner's album \"Lost In The Stars,\" featuring songs by Kurt Weill.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. It's a pleasure. Always happy to talk with you. Hope we can do it again soon. And hope you all are staying safe out there."}
{"id": "829955754", "date": "2020-04-09", "guest": "Chesa Boudin", "title": "How San Francisco's D.A. Is Decreasing The Jail Population Amid COVID-19", "question_index": 33, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Mooj Zadie, Thea Chaloner and Seth Kelley. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) When I was a young man courting the girls, I played me a waiting game. If a maid refused me with tossing curls, oh, I'd let that old earth take a couple of whirls, while I plied her with tea"}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 0, "text": "That's John Prine, from his new album, \"The Tree of Forgiveness.\" John Prine, welcome to FRESH AIR. It is a pleasure to have you here. Is there a story behind that song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Summer's end's around the bend, just flying. The swimming suits are on the land, just drying. I'll meet you there, per our conversation. I hope I didn't ruin your whole vacation. Well, you n"}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 1, "text": "What about the melody?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the big story behind that particular song, \"Summer's End,\" first of all, it's my favorite track from \"The Tree Of Forgiveness.\" You know, it just came out so pretty. A good buddy of mine, Pat Mc"}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 2, "text": "The Elizabeth Cotten song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The melody is just another simple John Prine patented melody. I mean, all I'm trying to do is play \"Freight Train,\" I think, you know?"}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 3, "text": "Wow. That's pretty strange.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just think of - yeah, that's how I learned to finger pick - was I learned how to finger pick by playing - trying to pick like Elizabeth Cotten and Mississippi John Hurt - so much so that I used to p"}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 4, "text": "So can you do it? Do you ever have to look down at your fingers when you're playing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, you're telling me."}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 5, "text": "Ha.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can't. My belly's too big."}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 6, "text": "You've been through a lot in the past few years. You've had neck cancer and lung cancer. Can we talk about how you were able to get back into shape to be able to perform and tour? I mean, the neck surgery severed nerves in your tongue. It damaged salivary glands. Did you have to learn to sing or speak again?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can't see my hands. Good thing I practiced in the dark."}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had to do some - they gave me a speech therapist. That was part of the therapy when I was just getting over the initial surgery - the neck surgery. That was a pretty big surgery. It was my first rea"}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 8, "text": "So you got a new voice, and you feel different about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I said if you leave me with something - if I can make a noise, I said, I'll come out with a voice on the other end, you know? And the surgeon told me my golf swing would improve after surgery. I said,"}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 9, "text": "So when you returned from being in the military and serving in West Germany, you moved to Chicago. You moved from a suburb outside of Chicago to Chicago. And you became a mailman there. So was being a mailman a good job for somebody who was writing songs in their spare time?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're remembering singer-songwriter John Prine, who died Tuesday from complications of the coronavirus. Let's get back to the 2018 interview Terry recorded with him after the releas"}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 10, "text": "Was that, like, maybe a good thing that your body was kind of occupied with walking the mail route, but your mind was free to think about lyrics without having to sit in a chair?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was great because there's really not much to do when you're a mailman. I mean, so maybe some mailmen make it into an actual job. But once you're out there on the same streets every day, and you rec"}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 11, "text": "Well, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because your mind don't want to be thinking about the weather..."}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 12, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And the dogs."}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 13, "text": "The dark? What time were you delivering mail?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it's a jungle out there, really. I was never so happy as the day I left the Post Office."}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 14, "text": "Oh, dogs. Oh, the dogs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Dogs, not the dark."}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 15, "text": "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Were you bitten?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, the ones that bite. Yeah."}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 16, "text": "Uh-oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yeah. I got bit in the best possible place..."}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yeah, I think I've seen that cartoon", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And ripped my pants and I had to go over to ER. That was really embarrassing - having a mailman outfit on with the ass of your pants tore out, you know, and a dog bite. You look like a cartoon."}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And ripped my pants and I had to go over to ER. That was really embarrassing - having a mailman outfit on with the ass of your pants tore out, you know, and a dog bite. You look like a cartoon."}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 19, "text": "So, you know, in addition to the neck surgery that you had for cancer, a few years later, you had lung cancer. And you had an operation on one of your lungs. I know you knew Roger Ebert, and he gave a boost to your career really early on before anybody knew you. He gave you a great review when you were just performing in Chicago before you'd recorded. And I don't know if you remained close. But he had cancer, and he had jaw surgery that basically left him unable to speak. I was wondering if you've communicated with him at all about your surgery. I think he was still - he would've still been alive.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There you go. I was the cartoon."}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 20, "text": "That's great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he - after Roger initially got, you know, sick, I was - I had played a show. And him and his wife came to it. And this was after my surgery. It was when I was out touring behind \"The Missing Yea"}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 21, "text": "This would have been about - what? - 1969?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I never had an empty seat after that. I was still - like I said, I was still making my living as a mailman. And I was singing after that three nights a week and two shows a night. And there was a "}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 22, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Late 1970."}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 23, "text": "I want to play another track from your new album, \"The Tree Of Forgiveness.\" And all the songs on this are co-written. This one was co-written with Phil Spector. You started the song with him in 1978. I think you finished it for the new album. So how did you and Phil Spector meet up? I mean, my initial reaction was, wow, that doesn't seem to - that seems like a really unusual musical fit because, you know, my first thought was, like, Phil Spector - girl groups, the Ronettes, Darlene Love. Then I was thinking, well, Phil Spector did produce music by John Lennon later on. And he produced a Leonard Cohen album. So what brought you together with him?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. Today, we're remembering singer, songwriter and guitarist John Prine, who died Tuesday from complications of the coronavirus. He was 73. Prine's"}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 24, "text": "So part of the lyric of \"God Only Knows\" is God only knows the price you pay for the ones you betray along the way. You didn't know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Robert Hilburn was the premiere music critic for the LA Times for about 35 years. And he was an early champion of my stuff. So anyway, he's the guy that introduced me to Phil Spector. I ran into him i"}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 25, "text": "Yeah. Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually it's if I should betray myself today, then God only knows the price you pay."}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 26, "text": "So, OK, thanks for the correction. So when you were writing this - I don't know if that line was written when you were working with Spector, but you could not have known...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 27, "text": "Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, that's one of the one's I - that's one of the one's I wrote just a week before..."}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 28, "text": "Yeah, because you could not have known he was going to commit murder and be in prison by the time you completed the song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I went in the studio."}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 29, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, that's not one of my talents."}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 30, "text": "What was your reaction having written, you know, a song and a half with him? What was your reaction when you found out about the murder?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can't tell the future."}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 31, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, I was shocked but not shocked because I don't - I mean, I can't comment on whether I thought it was a - whether I thought it was first-degree murder or not, you know? But I do know he wa"}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 32, "text": "Well, let's hear \"God Only Knows.\" And we'll also hear on this track Jason Isbell and Amanda Shires on background vocals. And Isbell's on slide guitar and she's on fiddle. So this is \"God Only Knows,\" co-written by my guest, John Prine, along with Phil Spector, and it's on Prine's new album, which is called \"The Tree Of Forgiveness.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I didn't know Phil well enough to know what his true personality was. I'm not sure that people close to him knew that."}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 33, "text": "So let's talk about your background. You grew up in Maywood, Ill. Was that, like, a small town outside of Chicago?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're remembering singer-songwriter John Prine, who died Tuesday from complications of the coronavirus. Let's get back to Terry's 2018 interview with him."}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 34, "text": "So was your father from Paradise, West Kentucky?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "background at all. You know, and I felt like I grew up in a good background where I had friends from all kind of places."}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 35, "text": "Did anyone from your family work in the coal industry?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was actually born down the road in Mercer, Ky. But he ended up over in Paradise because his father was a carpenter. And he'd work - like, he'd stay three months in a town, rent a house. And when th"}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 36, "text": "So you have a pretty famous song called \"Paradise\" that's about Paradise, Ky., and how beautiful it is and how the main character in your song wants to go back there. But his father tells him that it's basically too late because it's been hauled away by the coal trains. Did you see that happen to Paradise?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, uh-uh. I mean, I had a few cousins that did, but most of them got out. Most of them went to Louisville, Dayton, Ohio, Detroit for working at auto factories or Chicago."}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 37, "text": "Well, the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was in the Army. And my dad sent me a newspaper clipping because he knew how much I liked Paradise when we would go there in my childhood. We would go there as much - as often as we could to see my "}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 38, "text": "So let's hear \"Paradise.\" And this is from your 1971 debut album, \"John Prine.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so I wrote the song probably just after I got out of the Army. I wrote it for my dad. I realized that years later, that I just wanted my dad to - I put him in the song so he would know I was a cou"}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 39, "text": "So that's John Prine's famous song \"Paradise\" from his 1971 debut album called \"John Prine.\" So you grew up with a lot of country music because of your father. Did you - it sounds like you turned toward it as opposed to rebelling against it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) When I was a child, my family would travel down to western Kentucky where my parents were born. And there's a backwards old town that's often remembered, so many times that my memories are w"}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 40, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "would skip."}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 41, "text": "Your father died when he was 55. He had a massive heart attack on the front porch of your home. How old were you when that happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I learned that - I learned it, you know, verbatim."}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 42, "text": "Oh, so he never heard it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was 24, and my first record was a month away from being released."}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 43, "text": "I know you grew up near a junkyard and said that all the broken glass looked like a field of glittering diamonds. What was it like to grow up near a junkyard? Did you play in it? Was it...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're remembering singer-songwriter John Prine, who died Tuesday from complications of the coronavirus. Here's more of his 2018 interview with Terry."}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 44, "text": "Were there things in there that you considered treasures? Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. We played in it all the time."}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 45, "text": "Were there junkyard dogs? Did you have to confront dogs in the junkyard, as well?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was our war zone. You know, that's where we go to play Army and go to play Cowboys and Indians. I remember one summer, there was these big industrial lightbulbs. And they had dumped them all in t"}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 46, "text": "Like a mail route.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 47, "text": "Oh. Oh. Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "These were true junkyards - not somebody that owned a junkyard that was going to sell the stuff. This was, like, a city dump."}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 48, "text": "It was a dump. No, I think of a junkyard as being a business.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 49, "text": "Did it smell? Did you live near it, and did it smell?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no. I know what you mean. Those kind of junkyards - the only ones I ever knew like that were ones with the - where you could take parts off of old autos."}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 50, "text": "Right. So I want to close with another song from your new album. And I can't decide whether to play \"Boundless Love\" or \"I Have Met My Love Today.\" Do you want to choose one from those two?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it wouldn't - you couldn't dump food there. It was just - people would dump things."}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 51, "text": "Tell me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, \"Boundless Love\" I got an interesting story about."}
{"id": "831379294", "date": "2020-04-10", "guest": "John Prine", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Singer-Songwriter John Prine", "question_index": 52, "text": "Well, let's hear it. And, John Prine, it's been a great pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wrote that with three buddies of mine - David Ferguson, (ph) Dan Auerbach from Black Keys and Pat McLaughlin. I thought I mentioned earlier that we wrote for about 30 years now together. Anyway, the"}
{"id": "834164324", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Laura Linney", "title": "Jason Bateman Embraces His Darker Side In 'Ozark'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest Jason Bateman stars in the Netflix series \"Ozark.\" The third season has just been released - perfect timing for streaming while you're isolating at home. He was also in the first two episodes of HBO's recent adaptation of the Stephen King novel \"The Outsider\" and directed those episodes, too. In \"Arrested Development,\" he played the level-headed son Michael Bluth. His films include \"Juno,\" \"Bad Words,\" \"Identity Theft\" and \"Horrible Bosses.\" Bateman's career started when he was around 10. He was the son in \"Little House On The Prairie\" and the wiseguy best friend in the sitcom \"Silver Spoons.\" When he was 18, he became the youngest member of the Directors Guild of America. In \"Ozark,\" he plays Marty Byrde, a financial adviser in Chicago who's also an expert money launderer for the second largest Mexican drug cartel. What he didn't know was that his business partner was skimming millions from the operation. When the cartel leader finds out, he executes the partner while Marty watches on his knees. As the cartel leader turns and points his gun at Marty, Marty talks his way out of being killed. He suggests that they move their money laundering operation to the Ozarks in Missouri, where they'll be out of view from federal investigators who are focusing on Chicago. Marty promises they'll make even more money there. Marty and his family move to the Ozarks, where he and his wife start targeting businesses to buy that are good for money laundering while doing their best to protect themselves and their two children. But as they get deeper into the criminal world, they become involved with more and more violence. In the opening of the second season, the episode for which Bateman won an Emmy for directing, they witness a murder that helped solve a problem between the local heroin ring and the cartel. They're shocked and terrified by this unexpected brutal killing. But they also know the murder has gotten them out of harm's way, at least for the moment. In this scene, Marty and his wife, played by Laura Linney, are talking over what they just witnessed and its possible consequences.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "834164324", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Laura Linney", "title": "Jason Bateman Embraces His Darker Side In 'Ozark'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Jason Bateman, welcome to FRESH AIR. So before we talk about \"Ozark,\" I just want to say, the release of the third season is really good timing for people at home who are looking for things to stream. It must be so odd for you to have it released when people are watching, basically forced to stay home.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Marty Byrde) We got lucky."}
{"id": "834164324", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Laura Linney", "title": "Jason Bateman Embraces His Darker Side In 'Ozark'", "question_index": 2, "text": "It's, I'm sure, not the way you wanted people to watch your work.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "834164324", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Laura Linney", "title": "Jason Bateman Embraces His Darker Side In 'Ozark'", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Well, I mean, were we a bubbly, light comedy, I would say, you know, it'd be a nice sort of respite. But this is sort of a dark, moody show. But maybe that's helpful, too, because at least people "}
{"id": "834164324", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Laura Linney", "title": "Jason Bateman Embraces His Darker Side In 'Ozark'", "question_index": 4, "text": "How are you, and how is your family?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You always love - you love anything you're watching if you're trapped. So I'm prone to deflection. But still, I'm taking all this praise with a big grain of salt."}
{"id": "834164324", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Laura Linney", "title": "Jason Bateman Embraces His Darker Side In 'Ozark'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Are you teaching your kids at home?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We're doing well. Thank you very much. I trust the same with you. It's - if you're like me, you're really overtaken with all of this grief and struggle and all the bravery of the health care workers. "}
{"id": "834164324", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Laura Linney", "title": "Jason Bateman Embraces His Darker Side In 'Ozark'", "question_index": 6, "text": "In \"Ozark,\" your character is a money launderer. And in the first season, there's a very concise explanation of how money laundering works. So I'm going to ask you to explain the basics kind of the way your character does on the show. And along with that, I'm going to ask you if your role in \"Ozark\" as a money launderer helped you understand how Paul Manafort laundered his money.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That is not - I have even more respect than I ever had for second grade teachers. I'm trying to corral my 8-year-old daughter and get her excited about learning about ants and arachnopods (ph) o"}
{"id": "834164324", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Laura Linney", "title": "Jason Bateman Embraces His Darker Side In 'Ozark'", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is why you get the big bucks, Terry, you know?"}
{"id": "834164324", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Laura Linney", "title": "Jason Bateman Embraces His Darker Side In 'Ozark'", "question_index": 8, "text": "So I want to get back to the scene that we opened with. And you directed that episode. You won an Emmy for directing it. In that scene, you're really rationalizing that you're kind of implicated, in a way, in this murder that you just witnessed with your wife that was, like, so upsetting. And I'm wondering about the difference between, like, acting in that scene and directing that scene. For instance, in that scene, your face has to register a lot of different emotion. You know, at first, you're really trying to convince your wife it's his fault that he's dead, that he's murdered. It's not on us. We're not responsible. And all these other deaths and all this other violence that happened, like, that's not on our hands either. It's, like, their fault. And then when your wife kind of walks away, we're seeing your face. And your face is registering that you really are actually very troubled by all of this. But you can't deal with it. And you can't really admit it to yourself. So you're doing that as an actor. But then when you saw it as a director, when you actually were looking at the scene, is what you saw what you thought you were doing? Did you - you know, was what you saw what you hoped you were conveying?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're not asking about - you know, this it isn't low-hanging fruit. Well, I'll qualify this answer by saying I don't do a lot of things well. But the few things I do do well, one of which is remember"}
{"id": "834164324", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Laura Linney", "title": "Jason Bateman Embraces His Darker Side In 'Ozark'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Do you feel that playing this role on \"Ozark,\" which is a much darker role than people associate you with, is bringing out a darker side of you, getting in touch with stuff that you typically didn't get in touch with in the past for roles?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. There's sort of a muscle that you kind of grow from doing a bunch of acting for a long time. You kind of develop an ability to observe yourself while you're actually still in it doing it. And tha"}
{"id": "834164324", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Laura Linney", "title": "Jason Bateman Embraces His Darker Side In 'Ozark'", "question_index": 10, "text": "In Season 2 of \"Ozark,\" the murder that you and your wife have witnessed, it's a really gruesome murder. Like, first, the guy who is killed is whacked over the head with a big piece of wood. And then, I guess it's, like, a fireplace poker is used to, like, stake him in the heart. It's pretty gruesome - not that graphic, really, but it's very upsetting for the characters. And it's very surprising. Is that the first time you've directed a scene like that? And I'm interested in hearing, like, how you thought through what to show and what to happen off-camera in the scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", not - I mean, I'm plenty dark. It's always been in there. I enjoy getting to unapologetically speak some of that and behave some of that through this character. But I've always tried to put a little"}
{"id": "834164324", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Laura Linney", "title": "Jason Bateman Embraces His Darker Side In 'Ozark'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jason Bateman. He stars in the Netflix series \"Ozark.\" The third season has started streaming. He's also on the first two episodes of the HBO series \"The Outsider.\" We'll talk more after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Originally, it was written where that character would get shot in the head. And there was another character that got shot in the head in a room just around the corner from that room in another episode"}
{"id": "834164324", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Laura Linney", "title": "Jason Bateman Embraces His Darker Side In 'Ozark'", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jason Bateman, who stars in the Netflix series \"Ozark.\" He plays a financial adviser who's laundering money for the second-biggest Mexican cartel. He was also in the first two episodes of the HBO adaptation of Stephen King's novel \"The Outsider\" and was one of the series executive producers. I want to ask you about \"The Outsider.\" Let's hear a scene from it first. You play - you're a teacher. And you're the coach of the Little League team in a small town. A child is found not only murdered but mauled. And it's really a horrible, gruesome murder. There's evidence at the scene of the crime that you were there at the scene of the crime. At the same time, there's contradictory evidence that you were 70 miles away at a conference at the time of the crime. And so these two things are irreconcilable. How can you be in two places at once? The detective on the case, Ralph Anderson, which is Ben Mendelsohn's character in the series, he's pretty sure you're guilty. And because he lost his son a few years ago and is still mourning his son, the fact that he believes that you killed a child is just - it's just an unimaginable crime to him. So he's particularly upset with you also because you coached his son on the Little League team. And so he demands to know if you ever touched his son. And then later, when he's questioning you right before your arraignment, you bring that up, about his question - did you ever touch his son? And here's what you say.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Originally, it was written where that character would get shot in the head. And there was another character that got shot in the head in a room just around the corner from that room in another episode"}
{"id": "834164324", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Laura Linney", "title": "Jason Bateman Embraces His Darker Side In 'Ozark'", "question_index": 13, "text": "Jason Bateman in a scene from HBO's \"The Outsider.\" Oh, you're so good in that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Terry Maitland) In all the years I've been coaching Little League, your son Derek was the best drag bunter I ever had. And he was just a little guy. You know, he was very small - smallest kid on t"}
{"id": "834164324", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Laura Linney", "title": "Jason Bateman Embraces His Darker Side In 'Ozark'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Yeah. So this is a adaptation of a Stephen King novel. Richard Price did the adaptation. Richard Price is - he's such a good writer. I mean, he wrote for \"The Wire,\" and he's written some great novels. He wrote the movie \"Clockers.\" Part of what makes \"The Outsider\" interesting is you have this kind of supernatural element from Stephen King, and then Richard Price brings much more of a, you know, detective noir aspect to it. So you have two genres coming together in it. And how did you try to express that as the director, to bring those two genres together?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "834164324", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Laura Linney", "title": "Jason Bateman Embraces His Darker Side In 'Ozark'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Your father was a director and writer. Did you watch a lot of movies with him when you were growing up? And did he talk with you about what made a movie good or bad? And did he give you advice about things to look for in the film?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think they're mutually beneficial. The procedural elements of the show, of the book, helped to ground the fantasy elements of it, the supernatural elements of it. And on the other side, the su"}
{"id": "834164324", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Laura Linney", "title": "Jason Bateman Embraces His Darker Side In 'Ozark'", "question_index": 16, "text": "Jason Bateman, thank you so much for talking with us. Please stay well. My best wishes to you and to your family.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's actually exactly what he did, and that's the reason I love doing what I do. Some fathers may take their sons to a park and teach them how to throw the ball, but - my dad did some of that,"}
{"id": "834164324", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Laura Linney", "title": "Jason Bateman Embraces His Darker Side In 'Ozark'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Jason Bateman stars in the series \"Ozark.\" Season 3 is streaming on Netflix. After we take a short break, we'll remember a mother of the gay rights movement, Phyllis Lyon. She died Thursday at the age of 95. She co-founded the first national lesbian group in the U.S., the Daughters of Bilitis. We'll listen back to a 1992 interview. And film critic Justin Chang will recommend some movies to stream at home. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. Thank you for having me."}
{"id": "834176768", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Del Martin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers LGBTQ Pioneer Phyllis Lyon", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're going to remember one of the mothers of the gay rights movement, Phyllis Lyon. She died Thursday at the age of 95. In 1955, Lyon and Del Martin co-founded the first national lesbian group in the country, the Daughters of Bilitis. It was created as an alternative to the gay bar scene but developed into an activist group with a mission of helping lesbians discover their potential and find their place in society. The group disbanded in the '70s, but Lyon and Martin remained outspoken advocates of gay rights. Lyon and Martin had already been a couple for 55 years when they became the first gay couple to legally marry in the state of California in 2008. They'd actually gotten married four years earlier, but the California Supreme Court invalidated their marriage a month later. San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom presided over both weddings. Soon after the second wedding, Del Martin died. We're going to listen to the interview I recorded with Phyllis Lyon and Del Martin in 1992 after a new 20th anniversary edition was published of their book \"Lesbian/Woman.\" I asked them if they knew there was such a thing as a lesbian when they started being attracted to women. Del Martin spoke first.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "834176768", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Del Martin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers LGBTQ Pioneer Phyllis Lyon", "question_index": 1, "text": "And what year was that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, we're talking way back in the '30s and '40s and '50s. And I didn't really find out about lesbians until I met Del, actually."}
{"id": "834176768", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Del Martin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers LGBTQ Pioneer Phyllis Lyon", "question_index": 2, "text": "Where did you each find out more about other lesbians, about the fact that you weren't alone? Did you turn to books? Did you turn to other people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "1949, right. And I knew vaguely that there were such things as male homosexuals, but that was about it. But when I look back, I know that I was always fascinated with women. I just didn't have a clue "}
{"id": "834176768", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Del Martin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers LGBTQ Pioneer Phyllis Lyon", "question_index": 3, "text": "You both read that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"The Well Of Loneliness,\" yeah."}
{"id": "834176768", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Del Martin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers LGBTQ Pioneer Phyllis Lyon", "question_index": 4, "text": "Tell them about Del?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". The first thing I did when I got home was call everybody I knew and tell them."}
{"id": "834176768", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Del Martin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers LGBTQ Pioneer Phyllis Lyon", "question_index": 5, "text": "So, Phyllis, did you get the feeling right away that, well, you know, maybe you were, too? Did that strike you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Talk about naivete."}
{"id": "834176768", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Del Martin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers LGBTQ Pioneer Phyllis Lyon", "question_index": 6, "text": "Who made the first move?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so it was then or never."}
{"id": "834176768", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Del Martin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers LGBTQ Pioneer Phyllis Lyon", "question_index": 7, "text": "How did you both meet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She sort of made a half pass."}
{"id": "834176768", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Del Martin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers LGBTQ Pioneer Phyllis Lyon", "question_index": 8, "text": "You - so you knew each other from working together.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "On the job. We were working for trade publications in Seattle."}
{"id": "834176768", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Del Martin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers LGBTQ Pioneer Phyllis Lyon", "question_index": 9, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He didn't know how gay."}
{"id": "834176768", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Del Martin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers LGBTQ Pioneer Phyllis Lyon", "question_index": 10, "text": "Del, you had already been married. What happened to end the marriage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so I - of course, I was fascinated because I had lived in San - I went to UC Berkeley, and I had lived partially in San Francisco, and it was great to know somebody from down there was coming up."}
{"id": "834176768", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Del Martin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers LGBTQ Pioneer Phyllis Lyon", "question_index": 11, "text": "When you started being a couple, a lot of lesbian relationships were in the kind of butch-femme mode. Was your relationship that way, too, early on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I fell in love with the woman next door. And, you know, my feelings were really awakened by then, and I felt I needed to do something about it."}
{"id": "834176768", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Del Martin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers LGBTQ Pioneer Phyllis Lyon", "question_index": 12, "text": "So there was pressure on you. You felt that, like, from what you knew about lesbian couples, this is the way it had to be; this is the way it was supposed to be - butch and femme.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "834176768", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Del Martin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers LGBTQ Pioneer Phyllis Lyon", "question_index": 13, "text": "We're listening to my 1992 interview with Phyllis Lyon and Del Martin, who co-founded the first national lesbian group in the U.S., the Daughters of Bilitis. Lyon died Thursday at the age of 95. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But that's what my mother had always done, right? She had always gotten up and gotten Dad's breakfast. So I thought, well, this is what you have to do. But as Del said, it didn't last very long."}
{"id": "834176768", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Del Martin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers LGBTQ Pioneer Phyllis Lyon", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're remembering LGBTQ activist Phyllis Lyon. She died Thursday at the age of 95. In 1955, Lyon and Del Martin co-founded the Daughters of Bilitis, the first national lesbian group in the U.S. They were married in 2008 after being a couple since 1953. Martin died soon after the wedding. Let's get back to my 1992 interview with Lyon and Martin.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But that's what my mother had always done, right? She had always gotten up and gotten Dad's breakfast. So I thought, well, this is what you have to do. But as Del said, it didn't last very long."}
{"id": "834176768", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Del Martin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers LGBTQ Pioneer Phyllis Lyon", "question_index": 15, "text": "You met in 1949. In 1955, you co-founded Daughters of Bilitis. Why did you feel you wanted to start some kind of organization? And what did you have in mind when you started it? What did you want it to be? What did you need it to be?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But that's what my mother had always done, right? She had always gotten up and gotten Dad's breakfast. So I thought, well, this is what you have to do. But as Del said, it didn't last very long."}
{"id": "834176768", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Del Martin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers LGBTQ Pioneer Phyllis Lyon", "question_index": 16, "text": "Where did the name come from, Daughters of Bilitis?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it wasn't our idea. But we had met a lesbian through a couple of gay men that lived around the corner from us. And she called us one morning, Saturday morning, and said, how would you like to jo"}
{"id": "834176768", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Del Martin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers LGBTQ Pioneer Phyllis Lyon", "question_index": 17, "text": "It's a poem you knew?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "From \"The Songs Of Bilitis\" by Pierre Louys, which is a long lesbian narrative poem."}
{"id": "834176768", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Del Martin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers LGBTQ Pioneer Phyllis Lyon", "question_index": 18, "text": "So I guess it worked pretty well. You know, some people, when they hear the name, think it sounds like a disease - Bilitis.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was supposed to be a secret, and we have spent many, many years now trying to explain the name."}
{"id": "834176768", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Del Martin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers LGBTQ Pioneer Phyllis Lyon", "question_index": 19, "text": "Instead of Bilitis, like phlebitis?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Now, Terry..."}
{"id": "834176768", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Del Martin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers LGBTQ Pioneer Phyllis Lyon", "question_index": 20, "text": "So you were trying to keep the organization, you know, very secret to protect the members. Were there ways that lesbians could let other lesbians know who they were, like little cues lesbians could give each other through the way they dressed or wore their hair or whatever?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so we were, no, no, it's got to be Bilitis so it doesn't sound like an illness."}
{"id": "834176768", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Del Martin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers LGBTQ Pioneer Phyllis Lyon", "question_index": 21, "text": "Did you go to the bars at all before or after you co-founded Daughters of Bilitis?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that's probably why so many lesbians dressed pretty butchy (ph) - to let others know that here's a possibility."}
{"id": "834176768", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Del Martin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers LGBTQ Pioneer Phyllis Lyon", "question_index": 22, "text": "What was the bar scene like then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "834176768", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Del Martin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers LGBTQ Pioneer Phyllis Lyon", "question_index": 23, "text": "When you started Daughters of Bilitis, there was a gay men's counterpart at the time, the Mattachine Society. How did the two groups get along?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But we didn't get caught up. But we did find legal help for those who did."}
{"id": "834176768", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Del Martin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers LGBTQ Pioneer Phyllis Lyon", "question_index": 24, "text": "What were the issues that you felt the two groups had in common and the issues in which you diverted from each other?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the Mattachine Society was primarily gay males. And it was open to women, you know, to lesbians, and - but they had very few. And it was so male-oriented. However, they were helpful to us. At on"}
{"id": "834176768", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Del Martin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers LGBTQ Pioneer Phyllis Lyon", "question_index": 25, "text": "How so?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think basically what we had in common was the fact that we were both homosexual, and therefore, we were illegal, immoral and sick. Other than that, the lesbians' concerns were more on civil concerns"}
{"id": "834176768", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Del Martin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers LGBTQ Pioneer Phyllis Lyon", "question_index": 26, "text": "But this was before feminism, so, I mean, not only...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Anybody who thinks that gay men are not masculine in the sense of being very righteous and it's their baby - forget it. As far as the lesbians are concerned, they could join. They could be receptionis"}
{"id": "834176768", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Del Martin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers LGBTQ Pioneer Phyllis Lyon", "question_index": 27, "text": "Not only was gay rights in its very formative stages. There really wasn't a strong women's rights movement at the time, either. So you didn't have a word - feminism - to describe your feelings of the men being chauvinistic. So did you have a context to put that in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "834176768", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Del Martin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers LGBTQ Pioneer Phyllis Lyon", "question_index": 28, "text": "Let me jump ahead a little bit. You were active in the formation of the gay rights movement in the late '60s and early '70s, when the gay rights movement really expanded. Were there things that you felt really involved with and then issues that you felt kind of left out of for generational reasons, you know, I mean, because you'd come up - you come of age during a more repressive era?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "834176768", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Del Martin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers LGBTQ Pioneer Phyllis Lyon", "question_index": 29, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, but we never - we had never left, Terry. I mean, we had never quit..."}
{"id": "834176768", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Del Martin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers LGBTQ Pioneer Phyllis Lyon", "question_index": 30, "text": "Well, I wish you good health and good luck, and I thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Being involved with the movement. And we had also become involved with the women's movement. As soon as NOW got started, we got involved with NOW. And so I don't know that we ever felt as if we wer"}
{"id": "834176768", "date": "2020-04-14", "guest": "Del Martin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers LGBTQ Pioneer Phyllis Lyon", "question_index": 31, "text": "Phyllis Lyon and Del Martin recorded in 1992. Phyllis Lyon died Thursday at the age of 95. After we take a short break, our film critic Justin Chang will recommend some movies to stream at home. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "834874400", "date": "2020-04-15", "guest": "David Rohde", "title": "'In Deep' Challenges President Trump's Notion Of A Deep-State Conspiracy", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. President Trump and some of his allies have blamed the deep state for trying to undermine his presidency. My guest David Rohde has written a new book titled \"In Deep: The FBI, The CIA, And The Truth About America's 'Deep State.'\" It examines and discredits Trump's claims about a deep state, traces the history of the expression deep state, looks at how presidential power has changed since Nixon and how President Trump has expanded presidential power while weakening the checks and balances on his own power. Rohde says one recent example of how Trump is trying to expand presidential power is the claim he made at Monday's press conference that he has total authority over deciding when states should reopen. Rohde is executive editor for news at The New Yorker online. He's a former foreign correspondent for The New York Times, who was held captive by the Taliban for seven months. In 2009, he shared a Pulitzer Prize with a team of reporters for coverage of Afghanistan and Pakistan. David Rohde, welcome to FRESH AIR. Why did you want to write a book about the so-called deep state?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "834874400", "date": "2020-04-15", "guest": "David Rohde", "title": "'In Deep' Challenges President Trump's Notion Of A Deep-State Conspiracy", "question_index": 1, "text": "Where did the expression deep state originate? And what was it regionally intended to mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It struck me as a journalist that it's amazing how widespread this belief has become. There was a poll in early 2018 that found more than 70% of Americans felt there was a secret group of unelected of"}
{"id": "834874400", "date": "2020-04-15", "guest": "David Rohde", "title": "'In Deep' Challenges President Trump's Notion Of A Deep-State Conspiracy", "question_index": 2, "text": "Yeah, it concluded by saying that there's a great power struggle underway between Trump and the deep state fed by over $4 trillion a year in federal spending. So when Bannon publishes in Breitbart this article about how the deep state is undermining Trump, what does this article mean by the expression deep state.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So for decades, political scientists used it to talk about, actually, the military in Turkey and its efforts in that country to limit democracy, and it really wasn't applied in the United States. And "}
{"id": "834874400", "date": "2020-04-15", "guest": "David Rohde", "title": "'In Deep' Challenges President Trump's Notion Of A Deep-State Conspiracy", "question_index": 3, "text": "Why do you think it's caught on in the way it has, this whole idea that there's a deep state and that people in government are conspiring against Trump?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So for Republicans and conservatives, the deep state is an administrative state. It's an ever-growing government, and anyone who kind of supports it or participates in it - in the Breitbart essay, it'"}
{"id": "834874400", "date": "2020-04-15", "guest": "David Rohde", "title": "'In Deep' Challenges President Trump's Notion Of A Deep-State Conspiracy", "question_index": 4, "text": "Let's talk a little bit about Trump's response to the coronavirus and how his notion of a deep state conspiracy against him might have figured into that. The New York Times just published an article about things that Trump might have done earlier that he didn't and people who warned him and the warnings that he did not heed. And there's a sentence in that article that says, in the wake of his impeachment by the House and in the midst of his Senate trial, Trump's response to the virus was colored by his suspicion of and disdain for what he viewed as the deep state, the very people in his government whose expertise and long experience might have guided him more quickly toward steps that would slow the virus and likely save lives. I'm wondering what you have seen and heard about how the trump fear of the deep state conspiracy against him might have affected his response to the virus.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So there's a long, long history - particularly the FBI and the CIA - of abusing Americans. And I go in the book back to the 1970s, and that's where it really starts. And there was an amazing Senate in"}
{"id": "834874400", "date": "2020-04-15", "guest": "David Rohde", "title": "'In Deep' Challenges President Trump's Notion Of A Deep-State Conspiracy", "question_index": 5, "text": "Yeah. And while we're on the subject of Fauci, Trump retweeted, time to fire Fauci.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the president, throughout his career, has sort of had a tendency to look outside his organization. When he was, you know, running The Trump Organization in New York, he would call friends late at n"}
{"id": "834874400", "date": "2020-04-15", "guest": "David Rohde", "title": "'In Deep' Challenges President Trump's Notion Of A Deep-State Conspiracy", "question_index": 6, "text": "Are they afraid to contradict him because they don't want to lose their jobs, or are they afraid to contradict him because they fear if they lose their jobs, that a Trump loyalist will replace them and not be competent?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. It's - and I think it's confusing. There's a real fear. You know, intelligence officials, the heads of the CIA and the FBI - there's now a acting director of national intelligence, but before, it"}
{"id": "834874400", "date": "2020-04-15", "guest": "David Rohde", "title": "'In Deep' Challenges President Trump's Notion Of A Deep-State Conspiracy", "question_index": 7, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is David Rohde, executive editor for news at The New Yorker online and author of the new book \"In Deep: The FBI, The CIA, And The Truth About America's 'Deep State.'\" We'll be back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a little bit of both. But there is a mentality that it's better to wait this out, that you kind of can get in the president's crosshairs for a week and you're serving your institutions better by "}
{"id": "834874400", "date": "2020-04-15", "guest": "David Rohde", "title": "'In Deep' Challenges President Trump's Notion Of A Deep-State Conspiracy", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with David Rohde, author of the new book \"In Deep: The FBI, The CIA, And The Truth About America's 'Deep State.'\" It examines how President Trump has blamed the deep state for trying to undermine his presidency, while at the same time, he's appointed loyalists to key positions, fired those who have opposed him and limited checks and balances on his own power. The deep state is a conspiracy theory. Are there other conspiracy theories that you found Trump or members of his administration believe in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a little bit of both. But there is a mentality that it's better to wait this out, that you kind of can get in the president's crosshairs for a week and you're serving your institutions better by "}
{"id": "834874400", "date": "2020-04-15", "guest": "David Rohde", "title": "'In Deep' Challenges President Trump's Notion Of A Deep-State Conspiracy", "question_index": 9, "text": "But a problem is, a belief in fact is often interpreted now as political. Like, if you contradict Trump with a fact, that's considered to be political. But people need to stand up for facts.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the president doesn't really believe in the concept of kind of apolitical public service. And maybe that's a naive idea. I think that he thinks that - he comes from a world of New York real es"}
{"id": "834874400", "date": "2020-04-15", "guest": "David Rohde", "title": "'In Deep' Challenges President Trump's Notion Of A Deep-State Conspiracy", "question_index": 10, "text": "So Trump is opposed to what he describes as the deep state, this conspiracy of people in government and military who are trying to undermine his presidency. At the same time, he's dismantled some of the government and created his own state with people who are loyal to him. Let's start with how he's dismantled a lot of the government. He's fired so many people who have contradicted him or who have just, like, stood up for facts or who represent the possibility of oversight, like, recently, Michael Atkinson, the intelligence community's inspector general who took the whistleblower's complaint to Congress about Trump's phone call with the Ukrainian president. This is the quid pro quo call that led to his impeachment. And another recent example is he ousted the leader of the new watchdog panel that's supposed to be overseeing how the administration spends the trillion dollars of taxpayer money for COVID-19 relief. Can you talk about some of the people who Trump has, you know, fired because they've tried to use oversight or because they've contradicted him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that's the core problem here. So James Clapper is one of the characters in the book. He - his fear is that there's a sort of war on fact going on and a war on truth. And he thinks that, in an effo"}
{"id": "834874400", "date": "2020-04-15", "guest": "David Rohde", "title": "'In Deep' Challenges President Trump's Notion Of A Deep-State Conspiracy", "question_index": 11, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is David Rohde, executive editor for news at The New Yorker online and author of the new book \"In Deep: The FBI, The CIA, And The Truth About America's 'Deep State'.\" We'll talk more after a short break. And our TV critic David Bianculli will recommend some shows to watch and interesting places to look for shows off the beaten path. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the amazing thing about this moment with Trump is that he feels this sort of disdain for career government officials. And he doesn't trust them. He feels they're blocking him from being able to car"}
{"id": "834874400", "date": "2020-04-15", "guest": "David Rohde", "title": "'In Deep' Challenges President Trump's Notion Of A Deep-State Conspiracy", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with David Rohde, author of the new book \"In Deep: The FBI, The CIA, And The Truth About America's 'Deep State'.\" President Trump has blamed the deep state for undermining his presidency. Rohde examines that claim, discredits it and investigates how Trump has reshaped the government, replacing critics with loyalists and weakening the checks and balances on his own power. The book is also a history of how presidential power has evolved since Nixon. Rohde is executive editor for News at The New Yorker online and is a former New York Times foreign correspondent who shared a 2009 Pulitzer Prize for reporting on Afghanistan and Pakistan. You describe Attorney General William Barr as Trump's sword and shield. So in addition to Barr justifying the expansion of presidential power, has Barr's power been expanded, too? Has the power of the attorney general been expanded in the Trump administration?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the amazing thing about this moment with Trump is that he feels this sort of disdain for career government officials. And he doesn't trust them. He feels they're blocking him from being able to car"}
{"id": "834874400", "date": "2020-04-15", "guest": "David Rohde", "title": "'In Deep' Challenges President Trump's Notion Of A Deep-State Conspiracy", "question_index": 13, "text": "Trump gave Barr what you describe as, you know, the far-reaching power to unilaterally declassify top-secret documents in order to review the work of U.S. intelligence agencies. What is unusual about giving Barr that power to declassify top-secret documents?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It has. I think Barr is the most effective and sort of feared member of Trump's Cabinet. The attorney general plays a central role in the selection of judges for appointment to federal courts. And the"}
{"id": "834874400", "date": "2020-04-15", "guest": "David Rohde", "title": "'In Deep' Challenges President Trump's Notion Of A Deep-State Conspiracy", "question_index": 14, "text": "What are some of the changes Trump has made or is making now that you are concerned are likely to have a permanent or at least a lasting effect on American democracy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For the intelligence community, it's sort of a slap in the face. They traditionally have sort of controlled secrets. Again, the person who can declassify anything is the president of the United States"}
{"id": "834874400", "date": "2020-04-15", "guest": "David Rohde", "title": "'In Deep' Challenges President Trump's Notion Of A Deep-State Conspiracy", "question_index": 15, "text": "Some people are concerned that President Trump is dismantling parts of American democracy and leading us in a more authoritarian direction. Do you share those concerns?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think you've seen loyalists, you know, steadily taking over institutions. The White House itself has been sort of closed off in terms of refusing to answer questions or respond to subpoenas from Con"}
{"id": "834874400", "date": "2020-04-15", "guest": "David Rohde", "title": "'In Deep' Challenges President Trump's Notion Of A Deep-State Conspiracy", "question_index": 16, "text": "So your book is about the deep state - President Trump's claims about it, does it really exist. Do you feel like the president is creating a deep state of his own?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One former Trump aide who worked very closely with him told me that he fears that Trump is sort of increasingly frustrated and isolated, that when Trump wanted to pull U.S. forces out of Syria, he wou"}
{"id": "834874400", "date": "2020-04-15", "guest": "David Rohde", "title": "'In Deep' Challenges President Trump's Notion Of A Deep-State Conspiracy", "question_index": 17, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is David Rohde, executive editor for news at The New Yorker online and author of the new book \"In Deep: The FBI, The CIA, And The Truth About America's 'Deep State.'\" We'll be back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do, and that's really what I fear. And I don't know if, you know, this is a calculated thing by Trump or if he's just reacting to the political maelstrom around him, but he's - sort of under the gui"}
{"id": "834874400", "date": "2020-04-15", "guest": "David Rohde", "title": "'In Deep' Challenges President Trump's Notion Of A Deep-State Conspiracy", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with David Rohde, author of the new book \"In Deep: The FBI, The CIA, And The Truth About America's 'Deep State.'\" He received - he was part of a team of New York Times reporters who received a 2009 Pulitzer Prize for coverage of Afghanistan and Pakistan. It was, I think, more than 10 years ago, a little more than 10 years ago, when you were covering Afghanistan and the Taliban, that you were kidnapped by the Taliban and held for seven months. You escaped. That's how you got out. You were held hostage by the Haqqani network, and this is, like, a - one of the most extreme ends of the Taliban. So recently, in February, there was an op-ed by Sirajuddin Haqqani, deputy leader of the Taliban. This was in The New York Times, where you were working at the time you were kidnapped. So the op-ed by Haqqani was titled \"What We, The Taliban, Want,\" and it was about how he's tired of war and is convinced the killing and maiming must stop and that, you know, they're about to sign an agreement with the U.S. and are fully committed to carrying out its every single provision, letter and spirit. What was your reaction to reading that op-ed by Sirajuddin Haqqani after you were held hostage by the Haqqanis?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do, and that's really what I fear. And I don't know if, you know, this is a calculated thing by Trump or if he's just reacting to the political maelstrom around him, but he's - sort of under the gui"}
{"id": "834874400", "date": "2020-04-15", "guest": "David Rohde", "title": "'In Deep' Challenges President Trump's Notion Of A Deep-State Conspiracy", "question_index": 19, "text": "The intelligence community is issuing the same warning you just did.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess I think even the Taliban have a right to express their opinions. I don't trust Sirajuddin Haqqani at all. I don't - I didn't believe anything he said in the op-ed. But I think that, like, he h"}
{"id": "834874400", "date": "2020-04-15", "guest": "David Rohde", "title": "'In Deep' Challenges President Trump's Notion Of A Deep-State Conspiracy", "question_index": 20, "text": "You were so lied to when you were held hostage.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's - they were ruthless to me. I have a bias. They've kidnapped far more and killed far more Afghans than foreigners. Seven months was actually a brief period. They - the Haqqanis held Bowe Be"}
{"id": "834874400", "date": "2020-04-15", "guest": "David Rohde", "title": "'In Deep' Challenges President Trump's Notion Of A Deep-State Conspiracy", "question_index": 21, "text": "You had set up an interview with a commander of the Taliban, and then you were kidnapped. And the person who kidnapped you said that he was Commander Atiqullah. And it turns out, you found out later, that the person who kidnapped you was actually the person who you'd set up the interview with, but he disguised himself as somebody else so that you wouldn't know how you were betrayed by the person who'd set up the interview with you. What was your reaction when you found that out? How do you deal with that kind of betrayal and the kind of anger that must accompany it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "834874400", "date": "2020-04-15", "guest": "David Rohde", "title": "'In Deep' Challenges President Trump's Notion Of A Deep-State Conspiracy", "question_index": 22, "text": "You were kidnapped with two other people - an Afghan journalist who was going with you to this interview that you thought you were going to have with one of the leaders of the Taliban and with an Afghan driver. You were afraid that you would be released because you're an American journalist and that the other two would not be released and that they might be killed. You offered to let the Taliban amputate one of your fingers in exchange for saving the lives of the other two people who were kidnapped with you. Can I ask how you thought of making that offer? And what - did you go so far as imagining what it would be like to have a finger amputated by the Taliban? And that's, of course, not going to be done with anesthesia or with, you know, a great regard for - what if you get infected afterwards, what are your medical needs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was extraordinarily angry. And I would say, like, you know, a decade later, I'm still angry. Like, I went to interview him. He'd done interviews with two European journalists and not kidnapped them."}
{"id": "834874400", "date": "2020-04-15", "guest": "David Rohde", "title": "'In Deep' Challenges President Trump's Notion Of A Deep-State Conspiracy", "question_index": 23, "text": "Well, David Rohde, I wish you and your family good health. Stay safe. Stay healthy. Thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I felt it would be worse to live with the death of either Afghan on my conscience. There had been a kidnapping of an Italian journalist a few months before we were abducted, and the Taliban eventually"}
{"id": "834874400", "date": "2020-04-15", "guest": "David Rohde", "title": "'In Deep' Challenges President Trump's Notion Of A Deep-State Conspiracy", "question_index": 24, "text": "David Rohde is the executive editor for news at The New Yorker online. His new book is called \"In Deep: The FBI, The CIA, And The Truth About America's 'Deep State.'\" After we take a short break, our TV critic David Bianculli will recommend shows to watch while stuck at home. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "836901277", "date": "2020-04-20", "guest": "Iris Dement", "title": "For Iris DeMent, Music Is The Calling That Forces Her Into The Spotlight", "question_index": 0, "text": "Iris Dement, welcome to FRESH AIR. You've said that these poems by Anna Akhmatova spoke to you because you adopted your daughter Dasha from Siberia when she was 6, and you wanted to connect with the culture that she's from. How old was she when you started this project?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Not with deserters from the battle, that tears my land do I belong. To their coarse praise I do not listen. They shall not have from me one song. Poor exile, you are like a prisoner to me or"}
{"id": "836901277", "date": "2020-04-20", "guest": "Iris Dement", "title": "For Iris DeMent, Music Is The Calling That Forces Her Into The Spotlight", "question_index": 1, "text": "Akhmatova was accused under Stalin of being an enemy of the state. Her son was imprisoned because he was her son. She lost friends who were executed. But she didn't want to flee. She wanted to stay and fight for her country and be with her country, and she thought that her poems could bring something of value to the people in Russia. Do you have that kind of faith in your own art?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Dasha would have been maybe about 12 years old. I - yeah, the poems, I first started setting them about four years ago. And, you know, I was playing these song poems around the house while she was run"}
{"id": "836901277", "date": "2020-04-20", "guest": "Iris Dement", "title": "For Iris DeMent, Music Is The Calling That Forces Her Into The Spotlight", "question_index": 2, "text": "As we've talked about places so important to you in this project for Anna Akhmatova but also in your own songs, a couple of years ago you released an album called \"Sing The Delta.\" And the music is very inspired by the delta, where you were born and were raised till the age of 3. And then your family moved to California. You were born in Arkansas. Tell us a little bit about the music you were first exposed to.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I've not had to endure the test of it to even the slightest degree that she did. But I would have to say that, yes, I do. It sounds maybe a little arrogant. I don't know. But yes, I do. I am ext"}
{"id": "836901277", "date": "2020-04-20", "guest": "Iris Dement", "title": "For Iris DeMent, Music Is The Calling That Forces Her Into The Spotlight", "question_index": 3, "text": "So since you are seated at a piano at a studio at Iowa Public Radio, can I ask you to sing a song that you heard in church when you were young that stayed with you and that inspired you musically?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the music - I have a very large family. I was actually the last of 14 children. And when I was very young, my parents sold the farm and moved into town, and my dad took a factory job. And the wa"}
{"id": "836901277", "date": "2020-04-20", "guest": "Iris Dement", "title": "For Iris DeMent, Music Is The Calling That Forces Her Into The Spotlight", "question_index": 4, "text": "That was beautiful. You know, I...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'll do \"Pass Me Not.\" (Singing) Pass me not, oh gentle savior. Hear my humble cry. While on others thou art calling, do not pass me by. savior, oh, savior, hear my humble cry. While on others thou ar"}
{"id": "836901277", "date": "2020-04-20", "guest": "Iris Dement", "title": "For Iris DeMent, Music Is The Calling That Forces Her Into The Spotlight", "question_index": 5, "text": "Yeah, and you performed it so well. My guest is Iris DeMent, and she's at the piano. And she has a new album called \"The Trackless Woods.\" So it must have been so great to think of music as something that was really holy, as something that, like, connected you to the Holy Spirit. It wasn't just, like, pop tunes coming over the radio - not that those aren't great, not that that doesn't have a whole lot of meaning", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a pretty song."}
{"id": "836901277", "date": "2020-04-20", "guest": "Iris Dement", "title": "For Iris DeMent, Music Is The Calling That Forces Her Into The Spotlight", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a pretty song."}
{"id": "836901277", "date": "2020-04-20", "guest": "Iris Dement", "title": "For Iris DeMent, Music Is The Calling That Forces Her Into The Spotlight", "question_index": 7, "text": "There was a period of 16 years that elapsed between your albums of original songs, and it was 2012 or 2013 that you released your album \"Sing The Delta.\" So you were just talking about this period where you felt like you weren't connecting with that spirit. Does that explain the absence of an album of original songs from you during that period?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "; it was a, I'm not going to make it if I don't have that. And so I felt that that's my job. That's how I think of what I do. I have to give people that lifeline, you know, that I saw my parents reach"}
{"id": "836901277", "date": "2020-04-20", "guest": "Iris Dement", "title": "For Iris DeMent, Music Is The Calling That Forces Her Into The Spotlight", "question_index": 8, "text": "On your album \"Sing The Delta,\" the album that was your first original - your first album of original songs in 16 years - you have a song called \"Go On Ahead And Go Home.\" And it's home in the sense of death, not in the sense of - you know, it's about crossing over; it's not in the sense of, like, going back to your house.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I think that was - would be safe to say - some of it. A lot happened during that time. As far as musically, I continued to go out and play, and much to my amazement, I still had people that "}
{"id": "836901277", "date": "2020-04-20", "guest": "Iris Dement", "title": "For Iris DeMent, Music Is The Calling That Forces Her Into The Spotlight", "question_index": 9, "text": "Is there something specific that inspired the song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "836901277", "date": "2020-04-20", "guest": "Iris Dement", "title": "For Iris DeMent, Music Is The Calling That Forces Her Into The Spotlight", "question_index": 10, "text": "It's a beautiful song. Would you play that song, \"Go On Ahead And Go Home,\" for us? Like, an excerpt of that song that you wrote for your brother?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one of my older brothers passed away, and that very much led to that song. And it was my - my send-off to him, my attempt to honor his life."}
{"id": "836901277", "date": "2020-04-20", "guest": "Iris Dement", "title": "For Iris DeMent, Music Is The Calling That Forces Her Into The Spotlight", "question_index": 11, "text": "Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would love to."}
{"id": "836901277", "date": "2020-04-20", "guest": "Iris Dement", "title": "For Iris DeMent, Music Is The Calling That Forces Her Into The Spotlight", "question_index": 12, "text": "Your parents were Pentecostals and you grew up in the Pentecostal church. What were some of the things you witnessed when people would feel, like, overcome by the spirit?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Today we're presenting an interview from our archive which we thought would be nice to listen to during these difficult days. Let's get back to Terry's 2015 conversation with singer"}
{"id": "836901277", "date": "2020-04-20", "guest": "Iris Dement", "title": "For Iris DeMent, Music Is The Calling That Forces Her Into The Spotlight", "question_index": 13, "text": "Was it the kind of church where everybody sang, as opposed to their being a separate group of singers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you would see people dance - they call dancing in the spirit. They called it being slain in the spirit. You would fall over. People would talk in tongues. I can remember sitting on the pew on Su"}
{"id": "836901277", "date": "2020-04-20", "guest": "Iris Dement", "title": "For Iris DeMent, Music Is The Calling That Forces Her Into The Spotlight", "question_index": 14, "text": "Your mother sang at church, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...To get a little quiet. But it was always very private, and I always felt very protective of it. I didn't want to be a show to somebody."}
{"id": "836901277", "date": "2020-04-20", "guest": "Iris Dement", "title": "For Iris DeMent, Music Is The Calling That Forces Her Into The Spotlight", "question_index": 15, "text": "You recorded a duet with your mother. That's on your first album, \"Infamous Angel.\" And I'd like to play that duet. It's of the song \"Higher Ground.\" Do you want to introduce this recording for us?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies in for Terry Gross back with her 2015 interview with songwriter and singer Iris DeMent, an interview we thought would be nice to hear while so many of us are at home"}
{"id": "836901277", "date": "2020-04-20", "guest": "Iris Dement", "title": "For Iris DeMent, Music Is The Calling That Forces Her Into The Spotlight", "question_index": 16, "text": "So let's hear the duet with my guest Iris DeMent and her mother recorded in - this from a 1992 album, would have made your mother on 74 at the time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it's funny that you moved into that because I just remembered - I was talking in that - what I was saying about my mom, how she just had to do things her own way. I brought her in. That was my fir"}
{"id": "836901277", "date": "2020-04-20", "guest": "Iris Dement", "title": "For Iris DeMent, Music Is The Calling That Forces Her Into The Spotlight", "question_index": 17, "text": "OK. Here we go.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Probably. Yeah, that sounds about right."}
{"id": "836901277", "date": "2020-04-20", "guest": "Iris Dement", "title": "For Iris DeMent, Music Is The Calling That Forces Her Into The Spotlight", "question_index": 18, "text": "IRIS DEMENT", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Probably. Yeah, that sounds about right."}
{"id": "836901277", "date": "2020-04-20", "guest": "Iris Dement", "title": "For Iris DeMent, Music Is The Calling That Forces Her Into The Spotlight", "question_index": 19, "text": "So that's Iris DeMent duetting with her mother on Iris DeMent's 1992 album \"Infamous Angel.\" So did her voice influence your voice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "See; that was my key."}
{"id": "836901277", "date": "2020-04-20", "guest": "Iris Dement", "title": "For Iris DeMent, Music Is The Calling That Forces Her Into The Spotlight", "question_index": 20, "text": "Which was singing professionally.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, God, yes. In fact, I - you know, I won't do it, but I can mimic my mother's voice almost to the tee. And I've been doing that since I was a kid. But, you know, so much of that was my mom - you kno"}
{"id": "836901277", "date": "2020-04-20", "guest": "Iris Dement", "title": "For Iris DeMent, Music Is The Calling That Forces Her Into The Spotlight", "question_index": 21, "text": "We've been talking a lot about church and the music you grew up with from the church and in the church. And you know, so much of your music seems connected to that music - that church music that you grew up with. And this is an interesting twist on that, your song \"Let The Mystery Be.\" And that is now the theme song of the second season of the HBO series \"The Leftovers.\" And that series is about people who have just inexplicably vanished off the face of the earth. And some people think it might be the rapture or some other godly or mystical or just mysterious superstitious thing that happened. No one really knows. But you didn't write this for the series. This is from years ago. And it sounds to me like a song from - by somebody who is now secular and saying, I don't know about the answer. I'm not sure if there is a God, but I'm content to live with the mystery.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. While all of us are dealing in one way or another with the impact of the pandemic, we're going to our archives for an interview we hope you'll enjoy. Let's get back to Terry's 2015 "}
{"id": "836901277", "date": "2020-04-20", "guest": "Iris Dement", "title": "For Iris DeMent, Music Is The Calling That Forces Her Into The Spotlight", "question_index": 22, "text": "Would you sing some of \"Let The Mystery Be\" for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I wrote that about 25 years ago. And yes, that is true. But I think, you know, nowadays, the thing - for where I am now maybe, the way I would describe it is I have - I don't know about God and "}
{"id": "836901277", "date": "2020-04-20", "guest": "Iris Dement", "title": "For Iris DeMent, Music Is The Calling That Forces Her Into The Spotlight", "question_index": 23, "text": "That's a great song. That's Iris DeMent singing her song \"Let The Mystery Be,\" which is now being used as the theme song on HBO's Season 2 of \"The Leftovers.\" So is there a story behind your song \"Let The Mystery Be\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. (Singing) Everybody is wondering what and where they all came from. And everybody is worried about where they'll go when the whole thing's done. No one knows for certain, so it's all about the sam"}
{"id": "836901277", "date": "2020-04-20", "guest": "Iris Dement", "title": "For Iris DeMent, Music Is The Calling That Forces Her Into The Spotlight", "question_index": 24, "text": "Were you doing that on your own, or were you asked to do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not really. Isn't that disappointing? I mean, you know, we talked a lot about my religious upbringing. And - well, we didn't get a whole lot into how I kind of ventured away from that. When I was 16, "}
{"id": "836901277", "date": "2020-04-20", "guest": "Iris Dement", "title": "For Iris DeMent, Music Is The Calling That Forces Her Into The Spotlight", "question_index": 25, "text": "That's really old to start writing. I mean...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was groups. I mean, we would often do that before Sunday night service, go out into the neighborhood. The preacher would preach a little sermon. And you know, a group of us - you know, it mig"}
{"id": "836901277", "date": "2020-04-20", "guest": "Iris Dement", "title": "For Iris DeMent, Music Is The Calling That Forces Her Into The Spotlight", "question_index": 26, "text": "...Most people who write songs start writing in their teens.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "836901277", "date": "2020-04-20", "guest": "Iris Dement", "title": "For Iris DeMent, Music Is The Calling That Forces Her Into The Spotlight", "question_index": 27, "text": "So what happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know. And I'm not kidding you, too. When I say start writing, I mean I didn't write two lines until I was 25."}
{"id": "836901277", "date": "2020-04-20", "guest": "Iris Dement", "title": "For Iris DeMent, Music Is The Calling That Forces Her Into The Spotlight", "question_index": 28, "text": "What happened when you were 25 that got you writing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And..."}
{"id": "836901277", "date": "2020-04-20", "guest": "Iris Dement", "title": "For Iris DeMent, Music Is The Calling That Forces Her Into The Spotlight", "question_index": 29, "text": "Would you play that first song that you wrote, \"Our Town\"? Maybe just play a verse of it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I dropped out of high school, and I went back to school when I was 23. I'd followed a boyfriend of mine back to Topeka, Kan. I got my nerve up to apply to a college - Washburn University, which "}
{"id": "836901277", "date": "2020-04-20", "guest": "Iris Dement", "title": "For Iris DeMent, Music Is The Calling That Forces Her Into The Spotlight", "question_index": 30, "text": "And you want to introduce it for us, tell us what you were thinking when you wrote it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep."}
{"id": "836901277", "date": "2020-04-20", "guest": "Iris Dement", "title": "For Iris DeMent, Music Is The Calling That Forces Her Into The Spotlight", "question_index": 31, "text": "Would you play a bit of that song for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I remember that when I wrote this song, I hitched a ride. I didn't have a car at that time. And I was living in Topeka, and I hitched a ride with somebody I worked with who was going down to Okl"}
{"id": "836901277", "date": "2020-04-20", "guest": "Iris Dement", "title": "For Iris DeMent, Music Is The Calling That Forces Her Into The Spotlight", "question_index": 32, "text": "Thank you. That's Iris DeMent playing for us. And that's the first song that she wrote, \"Our Town.\" When you realized you could write songs, did you think, like, where is that coming from?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep. (Singing) And you know the sun's setting fast. Just like they say, nothing good ever lasts. Go on now. Kiss it goodbye. But hold on to your lover 'cause your heart's bound to die. Go on now. Say "}
{"id": "836901277", "date": "2020-04-20", "guest": "Iris Dement", "title": "For Iris DeMent, Music Is The Calling That Forces Her Into The Spotlight", "question_index": 33, "text": "So I'd love it if you'd close with a song, if you'd play us a song. And how about a song from your latest album, \"The Trackless Woods,\" which features poems by the Russian writer Anna - and I'm not sure whether it's Akhmatova or Akhmatova. You say you've heard it both ways, so I've just said it both ways.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview with singer and songwriter Iris DeMent."}
{"id": "836901277", "date": "2020-04-20", "guest": "Iris Dement", "title": "For Iris DeMent, Music Is The Calling That Forces Her Into The Spotlight", "question_index": 34, "text": "So hopefully we're covered.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "836901277", "date": "2020-04-20", "guest": "Iris Dement", "title": "For Iris DeMent, Music Is The Calling That Forces Her Into The Spotlight", "question_index": 35, "text": "And for people just tuning in, she was a Russian writer who was declared an enemy of the state by Stalin and suffered a lot as a result of being a dissident. But she wanted to stay and do her songs. And the song that I'd like you to do to close is called \"The Last Toast.\" Would you say a few words about this poem before you sing it for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a good plan."}
{"id": "836901277", "date": "2020-04-20", "guest": "Iris Dement", "title": "For Iris DeMent, Music Is The Calling That Forces Her Into The Spotlight", "question_index": 36, "text": "Iris DeMent, thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I love all these poems on this record. I can't even hardly quite get over it still that - they've just come to mean so much to me. I guess you could call it - she might've been meaning to sound "}
{"id": "842579283", "date": "2020-04-23", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Mitch McConnell's Calculated Decision To Become Trump's 'Enabler-in Chief,' Explained", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. President Trump's enabler in chief is Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, according to a new article by my guest, Jane Mayer, in The New Yorker. She writes that McConnell's refusal to rein in Trump is looking riskier than ever for McConnell and has cost him the respect of some powerful people who have known him the longest. McConnell has been Senate Majority Leader since 2015 and was minority leader from 2006 to 2014. He's now running for his seventh term. And the race appears to be very close. Jane Mayer is The New Yorker's chief Washington correspondent, covering politics, culture and national security. Her latest book is the 2016 bestseller \"Dark Money: The Hidden History Of The Billionaires Behind The Rise Of The Radical Right.\" Her article, \"Enabler-In-Chief,\" is in the April 20 issue of The New Yorker. Jane Mayer, welcome back to FRESH AIR. You write that some critics say McConnell bears a singular responsibility for the predicament we're in now with the coronavirus because McConnell knew from the start that Trump was not equipped to lead in a crisis. And McConnell protected him anyways. Give us a couple of examples of how McConnell has protected Trump.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "842579283", "date": "2020-04-23", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Mitch McConnell's Calculated Decision To Become Trump's 'Enabler-in Chief,' Explained", "question_index": 1, "text": "What are some of the things McConnell could be doing to correct the president's falsehoods, misinformation, lies, contradictions that McConnell hasn't called out Trump for? What could he be doing to prevent those kinds of misstatements, misinformation from being constantly reiterated?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think the thing that people notice the most is that, during the impeachment hearing, during the trial in the Senate, McConnell was instrumental in making sure that there were no witnesses who "}
{"id": "842579283", "date": "2020-04-23", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Mitch McConnell's Calculated Decision To Become Trump's 'Enabler-in Chief,' Explained", "question_index": 2, "text": "President Trump has usurped some of Congress' power. He issues executive orders like the travel ban, tariffs. He declared a national emergency in order to transfer federal funds to the border wall. He's blocked congressional subpoenas. He didn't cooperate with the impeachment inquiry, as you pointed out. So he's decreasing the power of congressional oversight, as you pointed out. And I have been mystified about why Mitch McConnell has accepted that, why he hasn't opposed the limitations that Trump has basically put on Congress, the power Trump has taken away from the Senate. So you mentioned that President Trump is appointing conservative judges. And that's going to be one of McConnell's chief legacies when he leaves office. That's been one of his goals is conservative judges. But are there other reasons why McConnell is allowing the president to limit his own power, to limit McConnell's own power as Senate majority leader?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, among other things, he could be speaking out. He could be, himself, a voice that corrects the president when the president is wrong. But also, under the Constitution, the Senate has a separate f"}
{"id": "842579283", "date": "2020-04-23", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Mitch McConnell's Calculated Decision To Become Trump's 'Enabler-in Chief,' Explained", "question_index": 3, "text": "Some people have told you, you know, that - people who've worked closely with him - that McConnell doesn't really like Trump and that he doesn't believe Trump is competent to hold office. But yet, he's supporting him. What are some of the things people have told you who know McConnell well about what McConnell really thinks of Trump?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, two reasons, principally. One is that McConnell is, in many ways, getting everything for his donors that his donors want. You know, he represents the big money in the Republican Party. And the d"}
{"id": "842579283", "date": "2020-04-23", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Mitch McConnell's Calculated Decision To Become Trump's 'Enabler-in Chief,' Explained", "question_index": 4, "text": "Yeah. Describe it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was so interesting. I mean, what you find out if you, you know, report closely around in the circle that's right around McConnell - people who talk to him and people he confides in - is that behind"}
{"id": "842579283", "date": "2020-04-23", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Mitch McConnell's Calculated Decision To Become Trump's 'Enabler-in Chief,' Explained", "question_index": 5, "text": "McConnell is one of the wealthiest people in the Senate. And Kentucky is one of the poorest states in the country. There's a really interesting billboard that there's a photograph of in the magazine, in The New Yorker, in your piece. Do you want to describe that billboard?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the political scientists are Jacob Hacker and Paul Pierson. And they've got a new book coming out that's called \"Let Them Eat Tweets.\" And what it talks about is this phenomena that they call pluto"}
{"id": "842579283", "date": "2020-04-23", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Mitch McConnell's Calculated Decision To Become Trump's 'Enabler-in Chief,' Explained", "question_index": 6, "text": "And we'll get into that a little more later. Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jane Mayer, who's the chief Washington correspondent for The New Yorker. Her latest article is called \"Enabler-In-Chief: Mitch McConnell's Refusal To Rein In Trump Is Looking Riskier Than Ever (ph).\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's a billboard with a big, blown-up picture of Mitch McConnell and his wife, Elaine Chao. And they're in their black-tie kind of, you know, going-out regalia. And underneath it, the sign says,"}
{"id": "842579283", "date": "2020-04-23", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Mitch McConnell's Calculated Decision To Become Trump's 'Enabler-in Chief,' Explained", "question_index": 7, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Jane Mayer, The New Yorker's chief Washington correspondent. Her latest article is about Mitch McConnell, the Senate majority leader. And it's called \"Enabler-In-Chief,\" as in, President Trump's enabler-in-chief. So I want to get back to what McConnell is getting out of his relationship with Trump. McConnell's wife, Elaine Chao, is secretary of transportation. Is that one of the things McConnell is getting out of their relationship?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's a billboard with a big, blown-up picture of Mitch McConnell and his wife, Elaine Chao. And they're in their black-tie kind of, you know, going-out regalia. And underneath it, the sign says,"}
{"id": "842579283", "date": "2020-04-23", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Mitch McConnell's Calculated Decision To Become Trump's 'Enabler-in Chief,' Explained", "question_index": 8, "text": "I mean, I don't mean to ask that in a sexist way - like, she's a woman, therefore, she wasn't hired for her own ability. But it is, you know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, for sure."}
{"id": "842579283", "date": "2020-04-23", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Mitch McConnell's Calculated Decision To Become Trump's 'Enabler-in Chief,' Explained", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's mighty handy for..."}
{"id": "842579283", "date": "2020-04-23", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Mitch McConnell's Calculated Decision To Become Trump's 'Enabler-in Chief,' Explained", "question_index": 10, "text": "You know, another thing about what McConnell is getting out of the relationship with Trump or why he is not standing up to Trump - some of McConnell's major donors are, reportedly, Fox News executives, including Rupert Murdoch and his son, Lachlan Murdoch. Does that mean that McConnell is reluctant to call out some of the things that Trump echo - that he hears on Fox News (ph).", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Mitch McConnell to have a wife who is the secretary of transportation. Let's just face the facts here. The Transportation Department hands out tons and tons of grants to every state. That allow who"}
{"id": "842579283", "date": "2020-04-23", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Mitch McConnell's Calculated Decision To Become Trump's 'Enabler-in Chief,' Explained", "question_index": 11, "text": "You write that McConnell is losing the support - and maybe even the respect - of some people who have been close to him a long time, some powerful people. And one of the people you single out here is David Jones, the late co-founder of Humana, the health care giant. And he backed all of McCain's Senate campaigns. And Jones and Humana gave $4.6 million to the McConnell Center at the University of Kentucky in Louisville. And three days before Jones died, he and his two sons sent the second of two letters - letters you describe as scorching letters - to McConnell. And they share those letters with you. Can you read us an excerpt of what was in those letters?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it certainly is a very sticky relationship. In the most recent filing period at the FEC, which just - these numbers that just came out, they showed that four of Mitch McConnell's top five disclo"}
{"id": "842579283", "date": "2020-04-23", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Mitch McConnell's Calculated Decision To Become Trump's 'Enabler-in Chief,' Explained", "question_index": 12, "text": "McConnell has also apparently lost the political support of his three daughters.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Basically, David Jones Sr., the co-founder of Humana, who McConnell had actually called, without exaggeration, the single most influential friend and mentor I've had in my entire career after he died "}
{"id": "842579283", "date": "2020-04-23", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Mitch McConnell's Calculated Decision To Become Trump's 'Enabler-in Chief,' Explained", "question_index": 13, "text": "That's such an interesting contrast.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He has three grown daughters. And one of them in particular, Porter McConnell, the youngest one who has, I think, a graduate degree in political science, is actually - fascinatingly to me anyway"}
{"id": "842579283", "date": "2020-04-23", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Mitch McConnell's Calculated Decision To Become Trump's 'Enabler-in Chief,' Explained", "question_index": 14, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jane Mayer, chief Washington correspondent for The New Yorker. Her latest article is called \"Enabler-In-Chief.\" It's about Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell. We'll be right back after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have to say that she did not grant me an interview, so I was just going from reading online and talking to people who have worked with her about the role that Take on Wall Street is playing. But it'"}
{"id": "842579283", "date": "2020-04-23", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Mitch McConnell's Calculated Decision To Become Trump's 'Enabler-in Chief,' Explained", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Jane Mayer, The New Yorker's chief Washington correspondent. Her latest article is about Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell. It's called \"Enabler-In-Chief,\" and it's all about Mitch McConnell's career in politics and how he has been a chief enabler of President Trump. Jane Mayer is also the author of the 2016 bestseller \"Dark Money: The Hidden History Of The Billionaires Behind The Rise Of The Radical Right.\" You describe McConnell as the master of the Washington, D.C., money machine and that nobody has done more than he has to engineer the current campaign finance system in which billionaires and corporations have virtually no spending limits and self-dealing and influence peddling are common. How did he become the master of the D.C. money machine?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have to say that she did not grant me an interview, so I was just going from reading online and talking to people who have worked with her about the role that Take on Wall Street is playing. But it'"}
{"id": "842579283", "date": "2020-04-23", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Mitch McConnell's Calculated Decision To Become Trump's 'Enabler-in Chief,' Explained", "question_index": 16, "text": "You write that McConnell's former staffers run an array of ostensibly independent spending groups, many of which take tens of millions of dollars from undisclosed donors. Tell us more about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one of the things that was astonishing to me was he came into politics around the time of Watergate, when there was sort of a national outcry against corruption and against the role that big mon"}
{"id": "842579283", "date": "2020-04-23", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Mitch McConnell's Calculated Decision To Become Trump's 'Enabler-in Chief,' Explained", "question_index": 17, "text": "So it's money that gets Republican candidates reelected, and in return, the elected Republicans help pass legislation that favors big money.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So McConnell's been very involved in trying to destroy all the various kinds of campaign finance reforms that were passed since Watergate, all the limits on spending and the limits that try to disclos"}
{"id": "842579283", "date": "2020-04-23", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Mitch McConnell's Calculated Decision To Become Trump's 'Enabler-in Chief,' Explained", "question_index": 18, "text": "Part of the story surrounding Mitch McConnell is that he used to be more idealistic. You looked for evidence of that and didn't find any.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, it's - somebody's described it as a self-licking ice-cream cone. It's a kind of a little circular process in a way where you've got aides that work for McConnell who go off and become lo"}
{"id": "842579283", "date": "2020-04-23", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Mitch McConnell's Calculated Decision To Become Trump's 'Enabler-in Chief,' Explained", "question_index": 19, "text": "Well, let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jane Mayer. She's The New Yorker's chief Washington correspondent. And her latest article is about Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, and it's called \"President Trump's Enabler-In-Chief\" (ph). We'll be right back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. I spent months on this story. I interviewed - I finally counted - it was upwards of 110 people. And I kept looking and looking to try to understand Mitch McConnell. You know, what makes somebod"}
{"id": "842579283", "date": "2020-04-23", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Mitch McConnell's Calculated Decision To Become Trump's 'Enabler-in Chief,' Explained", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jane Mayer. She's the chief Washington correspondent for The New Yorker. Her latest article is about Mitch McConnell and his relationship with President Trump, and it's called \"Enabler-In-Chief,\" meaning McConnell is Trump's enabler in chief. Mitch McConnell married Elaine Chao in 1993. It was his second marriage. She's an heiress who is now Trump's secretary of transportation. That's the position she chose when she knew she would get a cabinet appointment. There are possible conflicts of interest there. What are they?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. I spent months on this story. I interviewed - I finally counted - it was upwards of 110 people. And I kept looking and looking to try to understand Mitch McConnell. You know, what makes somebod"}
{"id": "842579283", "date": "2020-04-23", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Mitch McConnell's Calculated Decision To Become Trump's 'Enabler-in Chief,' Explained", "question_index": 21, "text": "And as you say, McConnell helped smear Joe Biden by allowing senators to insist that the real Ukraine scandal was the Biden family's enrichment for their connections with Ukraine's rulers. And you say any criticism of the Biden family could be made about the Chao family. Give us some examples of what you mean.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she would say there are not. But her family has a privately owned shipping company that does 70% of its business with China. It's a very lucrative company. It's based in New York. Her family are"}
{"id": "842579283", "date": "2020-04-23", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Mitch McConnell's Calculated Decision To Become Trump's 'Enabler-in Chief,' Explained", "question_index": 22, "text": "And McConnell's sister-in-law Angela, who's CEO of the family business, is now married to a billionaire, Jim Breyer, who is a venture capitalist with huge financial interests in China. Has he supported McConnell campaigns?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not only could it be made of the Chao family but what fascinated me was the same criticisms that have been made about the Biden family have been made about the Chao family and in the same book and by "}
{"id": "842579283", "date": "2020-04-23", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Mitch McConnell's Calculated Decision To Become Trump's 'Enabler-in Chief,' Explained", "question_index": 23, "text": "So you write about a position that McConnell took that, in retrospect, is very interesting now that we're in a crisis with the viral pandemic. When McConnell tried to repeal Obamacare, the Affordable Care Act, he introduced an amendment to eliminate the Prevention and Public Health Fund at the CDC. What does that fund do? And how is it related to the pandemic that we're experiencing now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, he has, indeed, very strongly. So you've got - Jim Breyer is now the brother-in-law of Mitch McConnell. Jim Breyer's well known in the business world. He's a terrifically important and successful"}
{"id": "842579283", "date": "2020-04-23", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Mitch McConnell's Calculated Decision To Become Trump's 'Enabler-in Chief,' Explained", "question_index": 24, "text": "What was his purpose in doing that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So that fund is money that - it's about a 12th of the funding of the CDC. It's almost a billion dollars. And McConnell himself, as you said, introduced this amendment - it's unusual for the majority l"}
{"id": "842579283", "date": "2020-04-23", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Mitch McConnell's Calculated Decision To Become Trump's 'Enabler-in Chief,' Explained", "question_index": 25, "text": "So is that what happened? In order to do the cuts and taxes for the wealthy, you had to make cuts, including at the CDC?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He and Republicans have described that fund as a slush fund. They didn't like it. They made fun of it and said it was paying for preventive health measures they've really been against. They claimed th"}
{"id": "842579283", "date": "2020-04-23", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Mitch McConnell's Calculated Decision To Become Trump's 'Enabler-in Chief,' Explained", "question_index": 26, "text": "McConnell is now running for his seventh term as a senator from Kentucky. He's running against Amy McGrath. And how is that election looking?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's certainly true that the 2017 tax cuts resulted in hugely reduced money coming into the federal government. And if you have to make up for those cuts somewhere, you have to look across the board a"}
{"id": "842579283", "date": "2020-04-23", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Mitch McConnell's Calculated Decision To Become Trump's 'Enabler-in Chief,' Explained", "question_index": 27, "text": "What's at stake in that election?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's early. It's hard to tell. There have been some surprising things about it. Amy McGrath is a former Marine fighter pilot. She's not, politically, anywhere near as experienced, obviously, as "}
{"id": "842579283", "date": "2020-04-23", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Mitch McConnell's Calculated Decision To Become Trump's 'Enabler-in Chief,' Explained", "question_index": 28, "text": "Well, Jane, I wish you good health and your family as well. Thank you, as always, for talking with us, and thank you for your reporting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, I think what's at stake nationally right now is who will have the majority of the Senate. It was taken for granted, maybe a half a year ago, that the Republicans would continue to hold t"}
{"id": "842579283", "date": "2020-04-23", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Mitch McConnell's Calculated Decision To Become Trump's 'Enabler-in Chief,' Explained", "question_index": 29, "text": "Jane Mayer is chief Washington correspondent for The New Yorker. Her article about Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell, titled \"Enabler-In-Chief,\" is in the April 20 edition of The New Yorker. After we take a short break, our TV critic David Bianculli will review this Sunday's series finale of \"Homeland\" and the return of the series \"Penny Dreadful.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, so good to be with you. Thank you so much."}
{"id": "843953472", "date": "2020-04-24", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "Catherine Russell: The 'Fresh Air' In-Studio Concert", "question_index": 0, "text": "Yeah, that was great. Thank you both so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Wake up and live. Don't mind the rainy patter, and you will find it's mind over matter. Dark clouds will break up if you just wake up and live. Yeah, wake up and live. Show the stuff you're "}
{"id": "843953472", "date": "2020-04-24", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "Catherine Russell: The 'Fresh Air' In-Studio Concert", "question_index": 1, "text": "That's Catherine Russell singing with Matt Munisteri featured on guitar. Now, you're here singing live for us, which is thrilling. But there's an album - there's a song from the new album I actually want to play from the album because your mother is featured on it, singing a duet with you on a Rosa (ph) Tharpe gospel song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Wake up and live. Don't mind the rainy patter, and you will find it's mind over matter. Dark clouds will break up if you just wake up and live. Yeah, wake up and live. Show the stuff you're "}
{"id": "843953472", "date": "2020-04-24", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "Catherine Russell: The 'Fresh Air' In-Studio Concert", "question_index": 2, "text": "So let's hear the track from the album in which you sing a duet with your mother, and this is \"He's All I Need.\" And this is my guest, Catherine Russell, with her mother Carline Ray, who used to perform most famously in The International Sweethearts of Rhythm, an all-women's band, during World War II. And this is from Catherine's new album, which is called \"Strictly Romancin'.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sister Rosetta Tharpe and Sister Marine Knight recorded a lot together back in the 1940s. And she swung. You know, that's what also grabbed me about her music."}
{"id": "843953472", "date": "2020-04-24", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "Catherine Russell: The 'Fresh Air' In-Studio Concert", "question_index": 3, "text": "CATHERINE", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sister Rosetta Tharpe and Sister Marine Knight recorded a lot together back in the 1940s. And she swung. You know, that's what also grabbed me about her music."}
{"id": "843953472", "date": "2020-04-24", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "Catherine Russell: The 'Fresh Air' In-Studio Concert", "question_index": 4, "text": "That's Catherine Russell duetting with her mother Carline Ray from Catherine's new album \"Strictly Romanin'.\" I really like that so much. At a time when there were few women instrumentalists in jazz, your mother was playing guitar with The International Sweethearts of Rhythm...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) If I was hungry without bread to eat. Well, If I was naked with no shoes on my feet. Well, if I was wondering, oh, Lord, where would I be? The Lord, he is my shepherd, - yeah, yeah - and tha"}
{"id": "843953472", "date": "2020-04-24", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "Catherine Russell: The 'Fresh Air' In-Studio Concert", "question_index": 5, "text": "...In the 1940s, during World War II. And then your father dies when you're 7.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "843953472", "date": "2020-04-24", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "Catherine Russell: The 'Fresh Air' In-Studio Concert", "question_index": 6, "text": "So your mother's on her own...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "843953472", "date": "2020-04-24", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "Catherine Russell: The 'Fresh Air' In-Studio Concert", "question_index": 7, "text": "...Raising you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "843953472", "date": "2020-04-24", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "Catherine Russell: The 'Fresh Air' In-Studio Concert", "question_index": 8, "text": "So you must have gotten the impression from her that women can definitely be strong and do things that are unconventional for women.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "843953472", "date": "2020-04-24", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "Catherine Russell: The 'Fresh Air' In-Studio Concert", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. You know, even when my dad was alive, I mean, she was always very independent. She left home to go on the road, and women just didn't really do that. You know, so my grandfather - she used to tel"}
{"id": "843953472", "date": "2020-04-24", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "Catherine Russell: The 'Fresh Air' In-Studio Concert", "question_index": 10, "text": "If you're just joining us, we're doing something special today. We have Catherine Russell performing some songs for us in our studio, accompanied by guitarist Matt Munisteri. So both your parents were jazz musicians.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You'll be back, you know. And she left, and she didn't come back, really, you know. She just left and started working right after she graduated from Juilliard School of Music. You know, she wanted to "}
{"id": "843953472", "date": "2020-04-24", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "Catherine Russell: The 'Fresh Air' In-Studio Concert", "question_index": 11, "text": "But you grew up hearing all kinds of things growing up in the '50s and '60s. I'm going to ask you to sing a song that meant a lot to you when you were coming of age musically and when you were really impressionable and learning new things.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "843953472", "date": "2020-04-24", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "Catherine Russell: The 'Fresh Air' In-Studio Concert", "question_index": 12, "text": "Fantastic. And this is my guest Catherine Russell singing with guitarist Matt Munisteri.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right. Well, my first 45 that I bought was a Supremes 45. I think it cost me about 40 cents back in 1964, 1965 - something like that. Then with all the girl groups, I loved a song called \"Nowhere "}
{"id": "843953472", "date": "2020-04-24", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "Catherine Russell: The 'Fresh Air' In-Studio Concert", "question_index": 13, "text": "That was great. And what an achievement to sing that solo without a backup group, you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Nowhere to run to, baby, nowhere to hide. I got nowhere to run to, baby, nowhere to hide. It's not love I'm running from; it's just the heartache I know will come 'cause I know you're no goo"}
{"id": "843953472", "date": "2020-04-24", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "Catherine Russell: The 'Fresh Air' In-Studio Concert", "question_index": 14, "text": "It's funny 'cause that's the kind of song that's usually so dependent on, like, the backup singers. You used to be a backup singer. And here you are doing it solo.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Nowhere to run to, baby, nowhere to hide. I got nowhere to run to, baby, nowhere to hide. It's not love I'm running from; it's just the heartache I know will come 'cause I know you're no goo"}
{"id": "843953472", "date": "2020-04-24", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "Catherine Russell: The 'Fresh Air' In-Studio Concert", "question_index": 15, "text": "I'd love for you to do another song. And this is a song by Fats Waller that's the title track of one of your earlier albums called \"Inside This Heart Of Mine.\" You know, you always associate Fats Waller with these, like, up-tempo kind of jokey songs, and this is a really, like, heartbreaking song. And it's not what you'd expect. It's a beautiful song. Tell us why you chose it.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to our concert with Catherine Russell and guitarist Matt Munisteri recorded in 2012, after her album \"Strictly Romancin'\" was released."}
{"id": "843953472", "date": "2020-04-24", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "Catherine Russell: The 'Fresh Air' In-Studio Concert", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, you're not kidding around when you sing it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's why I chose it because another instance of me, you know, cleaning up the kitchen after a great meal, and I said, let me put Fats Waller on, you know. And I was kind of, you know, dancing around"}
{"id": "843953472", "date": "2020-04-24", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "Catherine Russell: The 'Fresh Air' In-Studio Concert", "question_index": 17, "text": "So this is my guest Catherine Russell with Matt Munisteri on guitar, and they're performing in our studio. And she has a new album which is called \"Strictly Romancin'.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "843953472", "date": "2020-04-24", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "Catherine Russell: The 'Fresh Air' In-Studio Concert", "question_index": 18, "text": "Fabulous. Thank you so much. I love the way you do that song. With me in our studio is singer Catherine Russell and guitarist Matt Munisteri. They're performing some songs for us. She has a new album which is called \"Strictly Romancin'.\" He's the featured guitarist and music director on the album. So I hate to say it, but our - I think our time is up. And before you leave, I'd love for you to sing another song for us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Outside it's sunny. But in this heart of mine, the world is gloomy. The sun refused to shine. I've done the best that I could do, all for you. Now we're through. Sunshine brings danger insid"}
{"id": "843953472", "date": "2020-04-24", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "Catherine Russell: The 'Fresh Air' In-Studio Concert", "question_index": 19, "text": "And I have one to recommend, and it's called \"Everything's Been Done Before.\" It's one of the songs on the new album, which is called \"Strictly Romancin'.\" And again, tell us why you chose this one.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "843953472", "date": "2020-04-24", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "Catherine Russell: The 'Fresh Air' In-Studio Concert", "question_index": 20, "text": "Was your father on these records?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was once again listening to a compilation and this time it was a Louis Armstrong compilation, and Decca had just put this compilation out."}
{"id": "843953472", "date": "2020-04-24", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "Catherine Russell: The 'Fresh Air' In-Studio Concert", "question_index": 21, "text": "So was your father music director when Armstrong sang things like \"Got A Brand New Suit\" or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And this is during a period when my dad was musical director and one of the arrangers for Louis Armstrong's orchestra - it was actually my dad's orchestra during the years of 1935 to 1943. This c"}
{"id": "843953472", "date": "2020-04-24", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "Catherine Russell: The 'Fresh Air' In-Studio Concert", "question_index": 22, "text": "No, really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yes."}
{"id": "843953472", "date": "2020-04-24", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "Catherine Russell: The 'Fresh Air' In-Studio Concert", "question_index": 23, "text": "Or \"On A Coconut Island?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes. Yes."}
{"id": "843953472", "date": "2020-04-24", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "Catherine Russell: The 'Fresh Air' In-Studio Concert", "question_index": 24, "text": "No - oh, I love that stuff.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That's on those..."}
{"id": "843953472", "date": "2020-04-24", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "Catherine Russell: The 'Fresh Air' In-Studio Concert", "question_index": 25, "text": "Oh, no.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All of those things are on that - yeah, during those years..."}
{"id": "843953472", "date": "2020-04-24", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "Catherine Russell: The 'Fresh Air' In-Studio Concert", "question_index": 26, "text": "So that was actually your father's band?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Yeah, in the '30s."}
{"id": "843953472", "date": "2020-04-24", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "Catherine Russell: The 'Fresh Air' In-Studio Concert", "question_index": 27, "text": "Catherine Russell, it has been, really, very special to have you here performing today. Thank you so very much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That was his orchestra."}
{"id": "843953472", "date": "2020-04-24", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "Catherine Russell: The 'Fresh Air' In-Studio Concert", "question_index": 28, "text": "And Matt Munisteri, thank you so much for being here today.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank, you. You have no idea. It's been so special for me. And I just want to say, dreams can come true. So..."}
{"id": "843953472", "date": "2020-04-24", "guest": "Catherine Russell", "title": "Catherine Russell: The 'Fresh Air' In-Studio Concert", "question_index": 29, "text": "So we're going to hear one more song. And this is, again, a song from Catherine Russell's new album, \"Strictly Romancin'.\" But she's performing in our studio with Matt Munisteri on guitar. And thank you both again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, thank you."}
{"id": "848321204", "date": "2020-04-30", "guest": "Jesse Drucker", "title": "How The CARES Act Became A Tax-Break Bonanza For The Rich, Explained", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. As small businesses and individuals struggle to obtain federal aid, the wealthiest are poised to reap tens of billions of dollars in tax savings. The economic rescue package that became law last month is giving $174 billion in temporary tax breaks. They're intended to help small businesses. But they're going overwhelmingly to rich individuals and large companies. President Trump and his son-in-law, Jared Kushner, will likely benefit from these tax breaks. This is what my guest, Jesse Drucker, reports in The New York Times. He's an investigative reporter for The Times' business desk. He's been reporting on several of the Trump administration's tax and economic programs. Jesse Drucker, welcome back to FRESH AIR. How are you? I know you live in New York City, which is the hotspot for the virus. So how are you doing?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "848321204", "date": "2020-04-30", "guest": "Jesse Drucker", "title": "How The CARES Act Became A Tax-Break Bonanza For The Rich, Explained", "question_index": 1, "text": "Good. You've been writing about the tax breaks within the stimulus package. What are they officially supposed to achieve? Who is supposed to benefit from them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We're hanging in, you know? It's a stressful time. But we're all OK."}
{"id": "848321204", "date": "2020-04-30", "guest": "Jesse Drucker", "title": "How The CARES Act Became A Tax-Break Bonanza For The Rich, Explained", "question_index": 2, "text": "Can you give us an example?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so a couple days ago, Senator Charles Grassley, who is the Republican chairman of the Senate Finance Committee, which is the Senate's tax-writing committee, he said the first and only goal of th"}
{"id": "848321204", "date": "2020-04-30", "guest": "Jesse Drucker", "title": "How The CARES Act Became A Tax-Break Bonanza For The Rich, Explained", "question_index": 3, "text": "Give us another example that only benefits people or companies that have a lot of money.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The single biggest tax break that is going to help only wealthy people is something that will cost the government $135 billion. And this is a provision that will help people who own their businesses t"}
{"id": "848321204", "date": "2020-04-30", "guest": "Jesse Drucker", "title": "How The CARES Act Became A Tax-Break Bonanza For The Rich, Explained", "question_index": 4, "text": "So you point out in your article that the Trump family business and Jared Kushner's family's business are likely to benefit from the tax breaks in this new stimulus package. How are their companies likely to benefit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So another example is there is a restriction on how much interest companies can deduct from their tax returns. And that restriction only applies to companies that have at least $25 million a year in r"}
{"id": "848321204", "date": "2020-04-30", "guest": "Jesse Drucker", "title": "How The CARES Act Became A Tax-Break Bonanza For The Rich, Explained", "question_index": 5, "text": "So are the wealthy people and large companies who are benefiting from this new stimulus package, which is designed to help people and businesses during the pandemic, do they have to prove in any way that they're suffering as a result of the pandemic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because one of the provisions that they put in the CARES Act is a provision that allows business owners to use losses from their business and use that to offset the tax bills they might have from, say"}
{"id": "848321204", "date": "2020-04-30", "guest": "Jesse Drucker", "title": "How The CARES Act Became A Tax-Break Bonanza For The Rich, Explained", "question_index": 6, "text": "So you report that some of the tax cut provisions in the new stimulus bill - and the stimulus bill is designed to help companies and individuals suffering as a result of the pandemic. But you report that some of the cuts in here for wealthy individuals and rich corporations, these were cuts that were being lobbied for for a couple of years - ever since the 2017 tax cut package that was passed. And some corporations, lobbyists didn't want those restrictions. They've been working against those restrictions ever since. So do you see this current stimulus package as a kind of opportunity just to give lobbyists and corporations what they've been asking for for a couple of years under the cover of the pandemic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no. Not at all. I mean, one of the other provisions that is benefit - will benefit big companies is - or has the potential to benefit big companies is another provision that allows companies to ma"}
{"id": "848321204", "date": "2020-04-30", "guest": "Jesse Drucker", "title": "How The CARES Act Became A Tax-Break Bonanza For The Rich, Explained", "question_index": 7, "text": "Let's take a short break here. And then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jesse Drucker, an investigative reporter at The New York Times' business desk. We'll talk more after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If you go back just over two years, the end of 2017, the Republicans in Congress passed, really, kind of landmark tax legislation, which was then signed by President Trump, that was very beneficial, y"}
{"id": "848321204", "date": "2020-04-30", "guest": "Jesse Drucker", "title": "How The CARES Act Became A Tax-Break Bonanza For The Rich, Explained", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. My guest is Jesse Drucker, an investigative business reporter at The New York Times. His latest articles are about the economic stimulus package that's supposed to help small businesses and other people struggling during the pandemic. But it's turned out to be a tax break bonanza for the rich. One of the concerns that a lot of people had about this stimulus package that's, like, trillions of dollars is that - will there be oversight? Will it be going to the wrong people? Will it be used appropriately? And President Trump signed an executive order basically saying that he would, basically, ignore the oversight component that was written into the legislation. And he said that, in his opinion, it violates his executive power constitutionally. So what kind of oversight are we left with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If you go back just over two years, the end of 2017, the Republicans in Congress passed, really, kind of landmark tax legislation, which was then signed by President Trump, that was very beneficial, y"}
{"id": "848321204", "date": "2020-04-30", "guest": "Jesse Drucker", "title": "How The CARES Act Became A Tax-Break Bonanza For The Rich, Explained", "question_index": 9, "text": "Do you think that that's just, like, an oversight, like, a mistake that happened when the bill was being written? Or do you think that was intentionally baked into the bill?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, the reality is, in the form of the tax breaks, there's really no ability to see who's getting it - right? - because, I mean, companies' tax returns and peoples' tax returns are, obviousl"}
{"id": "848321204", "date": "2020-04-30", "guest": "Jesse Drucker", "title": "How The CARES Act Became A Tax-Break Bonanza For The Rich, Explained", "question_index": 10, "text": "One of the issues here is - at a time when the government is spending trillions in tax relief in the hopes of, like, preserving what's left of the economy and then stimulating the economy when we start to reopen - by cutting so much in taxes from the wealthy and from really big corporations, are we gutting the finances of the government more than we need to? Are we putting the government more in debt than we need to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I'm not sure I can really speak to that with respect to the loans, frankly. I mean, obviously, this is a very complicated task to get done in a hurry. And it's both hard to figure out kind o"}
{"id": "848321204", "date": "2020-04-30", "guest": "Jesse Drucker", "title": "How The CARES Act Became A Tax-Break Bonanza For The Rich, Explained", "question_index": 11, "text": "Is there an economic theory underlying how - like, who's getting the tax cuts and why? Like, for example, during the Reagan administration, whether you believe this to be true or not, there was, like, what was called Reaganomics or trickle-down, which was that, you know, if you gave a lot of money to, like, wealthy corporations, to big businesses, the money would trickle down to the employees, and everything would be good for the people who aren't wealthy 'cause the money would ultimately come to them, and that would stimulate the economy, et cetera. Is there any kind of theory that we're hearing now to explain the tax cuts to people who are making a lot of money?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Obviously, we have sort of an unprecedented economic catastrophe that's unfolding before our eyes. And in theory, the government - I mean, the government could, in theory, have an unlimited ability to"}
{"id": "848321204", "date": "2020-04-30", "guest": "Jesse Drucker", "title": "How The CARES Act Became A Tax-Break Bonanza For The Rich, Explained", "question_index": 12, "text": "You've described some of these tax breaks for big business and wealthy individuals in the current stimulus package as being the result of lobbyists who are still trying to undo some of the restrictions from the 2017 tax stimulus bill that already gave a lot of tax breaks to the wealthy. So how do the tax lobbyists manage to get these kinds of restrictions in? Like, how do they operate? And is there anybody lobbying on the other side?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm not aware of any real theory as to why the particular tax breaks that we've been talking about were in there. Like, I'm not - the theory behind, say, net operating losses or freeing up the restric"}
{"id": "848321204", "date": "2020-04-30", "guest": "Jesse Drucker", "title": "How The CARES Act Became A Tax-Break Bonanza For The Rich, Explained", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well, Jesse Drucker, thank you very much for talking with us. And stay well.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it's a really interesting and important question you're asking them. And I think that one of the things that is quite extraordinary about a lot of these tax provisions is that they are really only "}
{"id": "848321204", "date": "2020-04-30", "guest": "Jesse Drucker", "title": "How The CARES Act Became A Tax-Break Bonanza For The Rich, Explained", "question_index": 14, "text": "Jesse Drucker is an investigative business reporter for The New York Times.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "848321204", "date": "2020-04-30", "guest": "Jesse Drucker", "title": "How The CARES Act Became A Tax-Break Bonanza For The Rich, Explained", "question_index": 15, "text": "After we take a short break, we change the mood with some great music performed for us by guitarist Stephane Wrembel and his trio. Their music is inspired by the recordings Django Reinhardt and the Quintette of the Hot Club of France made in the '30s and '40s. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "849018347", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Gabriel Byrne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Bollywood Icon Irrfan Khan", "question_index": 0, "text": "Irrfan Khan, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Irrfan Khan in a scene from the HBO show \"In Treatment.\" Terry interviewed Khan in 2012."}
{"id": "849018347", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Gabriel Byrne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Bollywood Icon Irrfan Khan", "question_index": 1, "text": "So let me play a scene from the film that I think you're best known for in the United States, and that's \"Slumdog Millionaire.\" And you're a detective, a police detective, and in this scene, you're interrogating the main character, who's just won lots of money on the Indian version of \"Who Wants To Be A Millionaire.\" And no one believes that this young man who's from the slums of Mumbai could actually know the answers to the questions...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "849018347", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Gabriel Byrne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Bollywood Icon Irrfan Khan", "question_index": 2, "text": "...And have made that much money. So you're assuming that he's cheated. And he's - you have him hanging by his arms", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "849018347", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Gabriel Byrne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Bollywood Icon Irrfan Khan", "question_index": 3, "text": ". And with electrodes attached to his feet, you're actually administering shocks to him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "849018347", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Gabriel Byrne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Bollywood Icon Irrfan Khan", "question_index": 4, "text": "So here you are with Dev Patel as the \"Slumdog Millionaire.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "849018347", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Gabriel Byrne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Bollywood Icon Irrfan Khan", "question_index": 5, "text": "That's my guest Irrfan Khan as the police detective in \"Slumdog Millionaire.\" How did the popularity of \"Slumdog Millionaire\" - international popularity of it, Academy Award popularity of it - change your life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Police Inspector) Get him down. Tidy him up - please, for God's sake."}
{"id": "849018347", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Gabriel Byrne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Bollywood Icon Irrfan Khan", "question_index": 6, "text": "And this was a film in which you played an Indian American who's, you know, moved to the U.S. with your wife. And your son is - has become very, you know, Americanized and is trying to kind of make sense of his Indian American identity. And his name is Gogol, which he's always hated. And toward the end of the movie, you tell him the story of how he was named that, and it's a very moving story. You play a college professor in it. But you're a very smart, very quiet, subdued man who obviously has a lot of very powerful feelings inside, but you don't express it with a lot of drama. You're a very kind of subdued personality in it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It didn't have any direct effect as far as Indian viewership or Indian exposure is concerned. But definitely here in America, you know, people have seen it, and it was a real opportunity for me to be "}
{"id": "849018347", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Gabriel Byrne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Bollywood Icon Irrfan Khan", "question_index": 7, "text": "It's interesting that it was such a challenge for you to be unobtrusive, you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was something new. At that point of career, I was doing films which had a lot more to do with my presence on the screen. And when this opportunity came to me, I never knew that it's going to chal"}
{"id": "849018347", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Gabriel Byrne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Bollywood Icon Irrfan Khan", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was something new. At that point of career, I was doing films which had a lot more to do with my presence on the screen. And when this opportunity came to me, I never knew that it's going to chal"}
{"id": "849018347", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Gabriel Byrne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Bollywood Icon Irrfan Khan", "question_index": 9, "text": "I've seen posters for some of your Indian films and seen a couple of scenes, you know, on websites from them, and their scenes of you with guns and scenes of you - you know, there's love scenes, and you're working with a warlord in the mountains, and so...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "849018347", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Gabriel Byrne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Bollywood Icon Irrfan Khan", "question_index": 10, "text": "Those are roles that we haven't seen you in in American films.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "849018347", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Gabriel Byrne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Bollywood Icon Irrfan Khan", "question_index": 11, "text": "And what year is this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. What you're talking about, warlord - yeah, that's the film which take me out of my slumber, you know. That was a film which really gave me birth. I was losing my interest in acting, and I was doi"}
{"id": "849018347", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Gabriel Byrne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Bollywood Icon Irrfan Khan", "question_index": 12, "text": "You've done a lot of films in India. We associate Bollywood movies with a lot of like singing and dancing and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was 2000, I think. 2000, yeah."}
{"id": "849018347", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Gabriel Byrne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Bollywood Icon Irrfan Khan", "question_index": 13, "text": "...You know, big production numbers. Have you been in that type of Indian film?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "849018347", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Gabriel Byrne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Bollywood Icon Irrfan Khan", "question_index": 14, "text": "So how did your parents feel about you becoming an actor?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're listening to the interview Terry recorded in 2012 with Indian actor Irrfan Khan who died Wednesday at the age of 54."}
{"id": "849018347", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Gabriel Byrne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Bollywood Icon Irrfan Khan", "question_index": 15, "text": "So does your mother take any solace in knowing that even though you're not living very close to her geographically, that you're so successful and so well-known and popular in India?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mother still feels that I could be - she would be much more happier if I come back to my hometown and I take up some job, decent job, and so that I don't have to be away from her. She still feels t"}
{"id": "849018347", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Gabriel Byrne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Bollywood Icon Irrfan Khan", "question_index": 16, "text": "She still wants to see you anyways, huh", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It does do something to her, but not enough for her to really feel, you know - she still wants to see me."}
{"id": "849018347", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Gabriel Byrne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Bollywood Icon Irrfan Khan", "question_index": 17, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It does do something to her, but not enough for her to really feel, you know - she still wants to see me."}
{"id": "849018347", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Gabriel Byrne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Bollywood Icon Irrfan Khan", "question_index": 18, "text": "So I assume you grew up seeing some American movies as well as Indian movies.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All the time. Yeah. Yeah. She has this feeling that all - we brothers should be together. We should be living in the same house. And we should be, you know, sharing everything. You know, she's like a "}
{"id": "849018347", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Gabriel Byrne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Bollywood Icon Irrfan Khan", "question_index": 19, "text": "Were there American movies and American actors that influenced you and made you interested in performing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "849018347", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Gabriel Byrne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Bollywood Icon Irrfan Khan", "question_index": 20, "text": "We, meaning your family?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. They played a major role in my education as an actor. I was in drama school. There's not many drama schools in India. There's one which is authentic. It's the National School of Drama in Delh"}
{"id": "849018347", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Gabriel Byrne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Bollywood Icon Irrfan Khan", "question_index": 21, "text": "Why not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We meaning, like, my family didn't allow us to watch films."}
{"id": "849018347", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Gabriel Byrne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Bollywood Icon Irrfan Khan", "question_index": 22, "text": "Were those movies dubbed or subtitled?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". They used to think like that. So we were not allowed to watch films. And when I went to drama school, there was a theater where all these interesting films used to play on a very discount rate. And "}
{"id": "849018347", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Gabriel Byrne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Bollywood Icon Irrfan Khan", "question_index": 23, "text": "So you got to hear Brando's voice. You got to hear Pacino's voice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no. They were subtitled. Like Costa-Gavras, subtitled. Like, Fellini's films were subtitled."}
{"id": "849018347", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Gabriel Byrne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Bollywood Icon Irrfan Khan", "question_index": 24, "text": "Because that's something you lose when they're dubbed. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Oh, yes."}
{"id": "849018347", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Gabriel Byrne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Bollywood Icon Irrfan Khan", "question_index": 25, "text": "Oh, I see. I see.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were not commercial release."}
{"id": "849018347", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Gabriel Byrne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Bollywood Icon Irrfan Khan", "question_index": 26, "text": "Did your parents let you watch television when you were growing up even though you couldn't see movies?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, they were not commercial release. Yeah. They were, like, patronized by government. And these theaters were not commercial theaters. They were there - there was a kind of cultural center in Delhi. "}
{"id": "849018347", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Gabriel Byrne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Bollywood Icon Irrfan Khan", "question_index": 27, "text": "When you were doing a lot of television, were they government-controlled programs, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So television came a little late, I think. In our house, television came in '84. Yeah. Yeah. Just - year back, year back. Yeah, '83, it came in our house. And at that time, it was just two channels us"}
{"id": "849018347", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Gabriel Byrne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Bollywood Icon Irrfan Khan", "question_index": 28, "text": "You studied at the National School of Drama...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, they were. There were two channels that - there were two channels which is owned by government. But then, you know, they opened up for private channels. And then, now, there are more than a hund"}
{"id": "849018347", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Gabriel Byrne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Bollywood Icon Irrfan Khan", "question_index": 29, "text": "...In India. And I don't know if there's a specific approach to acting, a specific school of acting that's taught there. But I'm wondering if there's any comparisons you could make between acting as you learned it and acting as you think you may have learned it if you went to, you know, one of the theater schools in England or if you'd studied, you know, the Method in the United States.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "849018347", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Gabriel Byrne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Bollywood Icon Irrfan Khan", "question_index": 30, "text": "And when you say melodramatic, you mean everything's, like, a little overstated, a little big?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's very interesting question. See, we don't have a culture of realistic acting in India. Our films still are influenced by Parsi theater. Parsi theater was known for melodrama. So it still car"}
{"id": "849018347", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Gabriel Byrne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Bollywood Icon Irrfan Khan", "question_index": 31, "text": "In an interview on Al-Jazeera, you told a story that I thought was really funny. And the story is that, you know, when you wanted to, like, act on television, you went to - you must've been pretty young when you did this. You climbed up, like, this little...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Overstated. And it's all about emotions. And, you know, you just have to project your emotions. You don't have to behave in a realistic way. You don't have to be believable. You just have to, you know"}
{"id": "849018347", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Gabriel Byrne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Bollywood Icon Irrfan Khan", "question_index": 32, "text": "...Mountain or hill where the TV transmission tower was. And you figured, when you got there, that's where the offices would be and the people. And you could see if you could do something there. And then you got there. And you realize it's just a tower.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "849018347", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Gabriel Byrne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Bollywood Icon Irrfan Khan", "question_index": 33, "text": "How old were you when you did that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "849018347", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Gabriel Byrne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Bollywood Icon Irrfan Khan", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I was 14. You know, it sounds strange. In today's time, 14-year-old boys is, you know, much more smart and, you know, they know. But I think that we were very naive. We were very naive. And th"}
{"id": "849018347", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Gabriel Byrne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Bollywood Icon Irrfan Khan", "question_index": 35, "text": "So what was your reaction when you realized there's nothing there but a tower?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "849018347", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Gabriel Byrne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Bollywood Icon Irrfan Khan", "question_index": 36, "text": "Did you go to a real TV studio after that, eventually?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So no tower. Then we started roaming around on the mountain. So we forgot about getting work on television. You know, we just having a great time on mountain."}
{"id": "849018347", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Gabriel Byrne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Bollywood Icon Irrfan Khan", "question_index": 37, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No. I thought, you know, this not going to work out."}
{"id": "849018347", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Gabriel Byrne", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Bollywood Icon Irrfan Khan", "question_index": 38, "text": "Irrfan Khan, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "849123542", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Michael Cogswell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Archivist And Historian Michael Cogswell", "question_index": 0, "text": "Why don't you describe the house and the neighborhood that it's in?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Michael Cogswell, whose life's work was devoted to preserving the legacy of Louis Armstrong, died last week at the age of 66 from complications of bladder cancer. Cogswell was a musician with a master"}
{"id": "849123542", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Michael Cogswell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Archivist And Historian Michael Cogswell", "question_index": 1, "text": "Describe the interior of the house and what Armstrong was proudest of.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In 1943, Louis and his wife Lucille purchased a simple frame house in the working-class neighborhood of Corona, Queens, and they lived there for the rest of their lives."}
{"id": "849123542", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Michael Cogswell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Archivist And Historian Michael Cogswell", "question_index": 2, "text": "Why did the Armstrongs live in a working-class neighborhood for the latter part of Armstrong's life when they could have afforded, probably, to live anywhere?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, although it's a very simple frame house - sort of an Archie Bunker house, if you will - they did many remarkable things with the inside. For example, they enclosed the front porch and removed so"}
{"id": "849123542", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Michael Cogswell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Archivist And Historian Michael Cogswell", "question_index": 3, "text": "An important part of the Louis Armstrong archives is this huge collection of tapes that he recorded on an old reel-to-reel machine. What kind of things did he record on his reel-to-reel tape machine?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's an interesting issue because Louis, when they bought the house, was already a superstar, and they could have lived almost anywhere - perhaps in Beverly Hills, certainly a big estate on the "}
{"id": "849123542", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Michael Cogswell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Archivist And Historian Michael Cogswell", "question_index": 4, "text": "He also recorded many memories about his life. Who was he speaking to when he did that? Was he doing that for posterity?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There are more than 650 tapes in the Armstrong collection at the archives. About half of those are simply dubs of LPs and 78s. Louis would copy his favorite records onto audio tapes so that he could l"}
{"id": "849123542", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Michael Cogswell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Archivist And Historian Michael Cogswell", "question_index": 5, "text": "Well, you've brought some tape excerpts with you. Why don't we listen to one of them. And this is a memory of Louis Armstrong's from his childhood in New Orleans, when he came out of the orphans home. Why don't you summarize what's in this? Because it's just a little bit hard to hear, so I think it would be easier to listen to if we already know what we're listening for.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a good question. Sometimes he would make tapes as spoken word letters. We know from the tape that he was making the tape for an individual - for example, Max Jones, one of his biographers in En"}
{"id": "849123542", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Michael Cogswell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Archivist And Historian Michael Cogswell", "question_index": 6, "text": "Louis' mother was a teenage prostitute when she gave birth to him. Did he ever hold that against her, that she had been a prostitute?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I came out of the Waifs Home, I stayed a while with my father, Willie, and his other wife and family. He had another wife name Gertrude - a nice woman. She thought quite a bit about me. She liked"}
{"id": "849123542", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Michael Cogswell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Archivist And Historian Michael Cogswell", "question_index": 7, "text": "And he writes in his manuscripts that he always felt very comfortable around prostitutes, and in fact, his first wife was a prostitute, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Louis always spoke of his mother with the deepest and most sincere respect and affection. He dearly loved her, and she was a huge influence on his life. It's funny. Louis occasionally speaks badly of "}
{"id": "849123542", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Michael Cogswell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Archivist And Historian Michael Cogswell", "question_index": 8, "text": "Armstrong did have some pretty powerful things to say during the civil rights movement. What are some of the statements he made?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're listening to Terry's 2001 interview with Michael Cogswell, executive director of the Louis Armstrong House Museum in Queens, New York. He died last week at the age of 66."}
{"id": "849123542", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Michael Cogswell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Archivist And Historian Michael Cogswell", "question_index": 9, "text": "He also wrote about, you know, his pleasures in his journals, and one of the pleasures that he wrote about was smoking marijuana, which he did from the age of 26 on. And when he started smoking, there weren't any laws against it. He wrote, it puzzles me to see marijuana connected with narcotics, dope and all that kind of crap. It's actually a shame.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Perhaps the most famous one is - when the Little Rock crisis was unfolding, Louis was out in the boondocks - I think North Dakota - and a local reporter knocked on his door to interview the famous Mr."}
{"id": "849123542", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Michael Cogswell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Archivist And Historian Michael Cogswell", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's true. He was a lifelong pot smoker. And having said that, Louis was also the consummate professional. He was always on time and ready to play and one of the most creative people of this cen"}
{"id": "849123542", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Michael Cogswell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Archivist And Historian Michael Cogswell", "question_index": 11, "text": "One of Armstrong's big hits in the mid-'50s was \"Mack The Knife,\" which is, you know, the Kurt Weill, Bertolt Brecht song from \"The Threepenny Opera.\" And with Armstrong, it became this big pop hit. There's a recording that he made with Lotte Lenya of the song. And Lenya, by this time, was the widow of Kurt Weill. And she, of course, was in the original production of \"Threepenny Opera.\" Her style of singing is much more of a theater music style, not the kind of behind-the-beat jazz style of Armstrong. And on this recording, it seems to be Armstrong's session, and he's coaching her in the kind of rhythm that he wants. And I think it's really fascinating to listen to him control the session and coach Lenya. So I thought we could give this a listen. Anything you want to say about this track?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I need some really good arrangements, and I'm wiring the money to the American Express office in Paris. And you dig, Daddy? I know you'll understand. So apparently, the biographer had seen this le"}
{"id": "849123542", "date": "2020-05-01", "guest": "Michael Cogswell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Jazz Archivist And Historian Michael Cogswell", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, Michael Cogswell, good luck with your work with the Armstrong House and archives. Thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we have tapes of this in the Armstrong archives. It is fascinating. Lotte Lenya has come by this recording session, and Louis is coaching her on the coda, on the tag to \"Mack The Knife.\" And she"}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 0, "text": "Steve Martin, welcome back to FRESH AIR. I love your new book.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Steve Martin has been making people laugh, often with highly conceptual humor, since the 1960s, when he was a staff writer on \"The Smothers Brothers Comedy Hour.\" In the '70s, he became a major stand-"}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 1, "text": "I'd like you to open with a reading from the beginning of the book, and we've edited this slightly to make it just a little shorter for the broadcast.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Great to be here. Thank you. Thank you very much."}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 2, "text": "Thanks for reading that. That's Steve Martin reading from his memoir \"Born Standing Up,\" which has just been published in paperback. And I guess I didn't realize how much you'd closed the door on your comedy years, how much there was, like, a before and after. It ended. You were done, and that was it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Great - be happy to. (Reading) I did stand-up comedy for 18 years. 10 of those years were spent learning, four years were spent refining, and four years were spent in wild success. I was seeking comic"}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 3, "text": "Why would you have had to create an entirely new show?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. I - it was about 1981. I still had a few obligations left, but I knew that I could not continue. But I guess I could have continued if I had nothing to go to, but I did have something to go to,"}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 4, "text": "You know, in the reading that you just did, you described herself as not being naturally talented. Did you think of yourself as naturally funny?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like I say, the act was really - there was a passage in the book which I cut because it was so hard to explain. But the act essentially, besides all the jokes and bits and everything, was conceptual. "}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 5, "text": "Now, you got your start working in Disneyland. You were living in southern California. And when you were 10, you were selling guidebooks there. Then you later worked for a magic shop, demonstrating magic tricks. And I get the sense from your memoir that demonstrating those magic tricks, you know, hours a day and really getting them down because you were doing them so much - that that gave you a sense that performance required a great deal of craft, that even comedy wasn't just a question of going out on stage and saying funny things, that there was enormous amounts of work and practice and thought that would have to go into it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't think of myself in that way, no, although I just loved comedy. I was raised with \"Laurel And Hardy\" and \"I Love Lucy\" and Jerry Lewis, and I just loved it. And I had a friend in high school, "}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 6, "text": "What was your patter?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, you know, call them suckers. And it was really funny and kind of friendly rude."}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm trying to think of other ones. Oh, yeah. I'd say - somebody would buy something and would say, and because you're our 100th customer today, you get a free paper bag."}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 8, "text": "Right. Now, your early act was a combination of banjo playing, juggling, magic tricks and comedy, and some of that stayed in your later act, too. But it sounds like a vaudeville act.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's little silly things like that, but at Disneyland and I'm 15."}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 9, "text": "But what you were doing, I think, is not only making comedy out of nothing but making comedy out of people's expectations, which you were going to fail to fulfill.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I was very interested vaudeville. It was the only sort of discipline that was a five-minute act on stage, which is what I really enjoyed and saw myself doing. And I bought books on it. I went to "}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 10, "text": "With such weird, like, bad material because some of the material was, like, consciously not funny.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yes. Exactly. And I really started that when I became a semi-professional, meaning I was working the local folk-music clubs, going around either working for free or for a week. And I quickly dec"}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 11, "text": "Well, you tell the whole genesis of that. I mean, it started off - you were performing in a class in...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Well, I had one bit that I opened with. I'd say, and now I would like to do the nose on microphone routine. And I would lean in and put my nose on the microphone and then stand and, you know, h"}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 12, "text": "...Vanderbilt University. Go ahead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I was..."}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is - I think it must have been around '68 or '67. You had a really bad experience. You were going to see \"The Producers,\" the Mel Brooks movie.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2008 interview with Steve Martin. They're discussing his memoir about his early career in comedy titled \"Born Standing Up.\""}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 14, "text": "Yeah. And you got high, smoked marijuana beforehand...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, right."}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 15, "text": "...And had a panic attack in the theater but didn't know what a panic attack was, so had no idea what it was that you were experiencing. What were you experiencing that was so terrifying in that movie theater?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 16, "text": "When you had that first anxiety attack after smoking marijuana, did you ask yourself, is it the marijuana that's transforming me and creating a false feeling in me of this panic or is the marijuana bringing out something that is genuinely me that's just been hidden from my sight...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had just gotten my job on the Smothers Brothers. And, you know, pot was a daily ritual - never at work, you know, at night or something. And I was a cowardly drug-taker. But actually, I view t"}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 17, "text": "...And marijuana's bringing out this, like, really larger truth about who I am and what the world is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 18, "text": "On your first album, \"Let's Get Small,\" you do a bit about the spotlight. And before we actually hear the recording, I want you to tell us about the first time you did it.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli in for Terry Gross back with more of Terry's 2008 interview with comedian, actor, author and musician Steve Martin. He's been honored with both the Mark Twain Pr"}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is - on stage, you're telling him this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I just had this - I - when I worked at Disneyland, I worked with a woman named Irene who was from Biloxi, Miss. - Missouri - Mississippi. And she had an expression that she used all the time. She "}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "On stage..."}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 21, "text": "OK. So let's hear it. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I started telling him. And at one point - this was the first time ever I ever did it on stage. And at one point, he was so convinced that I was sincere, he started to reach to change it. And John said"}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is the spotlight bit. And this is Steve Martin, and he has a new memoir...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 23, "text": "OK, so here's Steve Martin. (SOUNBITE OF ARCHIVED RECORDING)", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't stand behind any of these routines 40 years later, but go ahead."}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 24, "text": "That's Steve Martin from his first album, \"Let's Get Small.\" Now, people seem to be with you throughout this. I mean, were they already hip to what you were doing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I'm really up to here with this. Is this the matter that - you know, I am on stage, and it's my ass out here. You know what I mean? And I come out, and I'm giving, and I'm giving, and I'm gi"}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 25, "text": "When you started in comedy, it was before the comedy club era, so you couldn't play...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were in San Francisco because that was a home base for me, and I was really stupid in that it took me a while to figure out, oh, this act doesn't work everywhere. I was just reading in the book b"}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 26, "text": "...The comedy clubs. There weren't any, but there were a lot of, like, folk music clubs. Did the fact that you had the banjo in the act give clubs the opportunity or the excuse to hire you even though you weren't a conventional musician?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, looking back, I never thought of that. But I think they - the clubs would hire comedians. They were always the opening act unless there were big names. But, you know, I put the banjo in. I put t"}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 28, "text": "There's a terrific photo - there's a bunch of photos in your memoir", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2008 interview with comic, actor and author Steve Martin. His memoir \"Born Standing Up\" had recently been published."}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 29, "text": ". My favorite is the one where you're standing with - holding your banjo. And your hair is really kind of long...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2008 interview with comic, actor and author Steve Martin. His memoir \"Born Standing Up\" had recently been published."}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 30, "text": "...And scruffy. You have a beard. You're wearing a shirt with a big collar that's open, and you have, like, a necklace of shells that you're wearing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, right."}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 31, "text": "Oh, I'm sorry. Excuse me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it's a squash blossom turquoise necklace, which was very..."}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 32, "text": "But at some point, you decided to cut your hair, shave the beard and wear a suit onstage.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Popular at the time. Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 33, "text": "How...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 34, "text": "Yeah, go ahead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was another..."}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 35, "text": "So did you feel like you had kindred spirits in the performance world when you were getting started who had a more, like, conceptual or avant-garde approach to what they were doing? Like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, go ahead. It was another crucial - I mean, it sounds so frivolous now, but it was a crucial decision then. I - you know, the Vietnam War was raging, but it was winding down. The - America was very"}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 36, "text": "But think of how that worked out for you. I mean, you found your people there and your audience and fellow comics who were on the same wavelength.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 37, "text": "I love the review that your father wrote", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah, right. And I was so fortunate to have been invited into that group, too, because now, we were all one - or at least I - you know, they were on a roll. I was lucky to be accepted. Lorne Mic"}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 38, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah, right. And I was so fortunate to have been invited into that group, too, because now, we were all one - or at least I - you know, they were on a roll. I was lucky to be accepted. Lorne Mic"}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 39, "text": "...Of your first \"Saturday Night Live\" appearance. And this was in a - in his newsletter - in his column in the newsletter for the Newport Beach Association of Realtors. He was the president...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 40, "text": "...Of the association. And - do you want to quote the line, or should I read it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 41, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, you can go ahead."}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 42, "text": "He wrote, (reading) his performance did nothing to further his career.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I'll comment on it."}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 43, "text": "Of course, nothing could be further than the truth. But did that - like, what was your reaction when your father gave you a bad review?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 44, "text": "Well, he couldn't figure it out beforehand that that wasn't...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, first, he felt terrible about it later."}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 45, "text": "...The thing to do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know..."}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 46, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's - that was my father. But - he always thought he had to, you know, speak the truth. But, you know, when I was a kid and I would listen to, let's say, Little Richard - and I'd listen to Li"}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 47, "text": "It's good you'd seen all those movies", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...He sings (singing) wop-bop-a-loo-bop, a-lop-bam-boom? Is his mother proud or embarrassed? Well, I think my father - you know, he couldn't quite be proud of an unconventional showbiz act that he did"}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 48, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...He sings (singing) wop-bop-a-loo-bop, a-lop-bam-boom? Is his mother proud or embarrassed? Well, I think my father - you know, he couldn't quite be proud of an unconventional showbiz act that he did"}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 49, "text": "So was it hard for you to change your image from, like, you know, the wild and crazy guy of the stand-up years when you decided to give up stand-up and devote your life to - professionally to movies?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 50, "text": "That was like your Cyrano de Bergerac film.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it took a long time. But I did know this - that one day, it will be forgotten. And so I just did what I was going to do. And there was this, you know, hangover effect of wild and crazy guy, wild"}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 51, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, exactly."}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 52, "text": "It has been so great to talk with you. I really want to thank you a lot.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "852769010", "date": "2020-05-08", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Steve Martin On His Years As A Comic \u2014 And Walking Away From Stand-Up", "question_index": 53, "text": "Thank you, Steve Martin.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much. It's really fun to talk about myself."}
{"id": "853767127", "date": "2020-05-11", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "How Protecting Voter Safety With Mail-In Ballots Became A Partisan Issue", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Assuming the pandemic has not ended by Election Day, will you be able to vote by mail? And if not, are you willing to risk your health, maybe your life, by going to the polls in order to exercise your constitutional right to vote, like many people in the Wisconsin primary did last month? My guest Emily Bazelon has written a new article titled \"Will Americans Lose Their Right To Vote In The Pandemic?\" It's published in this week's edition of The New York Times Magazine. She focuses on many of the financial and political obstacles that are likely to prevent many Americans from voting by mail. She writes, the U.S. prides itself on its democracy in theory, but this year, not necessarily in practice. Bazelon is a staff writer for The New York Times Magazine, where she writes about legal issues. And she's the Truman Capote Fellow for creative writing and law at Yale Law School. Her latest book, \"Charged: The New Movement To Transform American Prosecution And End Mass Incarceration,\" was just published in paperback. It won the 2020 LA Times Book Prize in the current interest category. Emily Bazelon, welcome back to FRESH AIR. It's a pleasure to have you back on the show. How are you? Before we get started, just reassure me everything's well, that you're OK.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "853767127", "date": "2020-05-11", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "How Protecting Voter Safety With Mail-In Ballots Became A Partisan Issue", "question_index": 1, "text": "So let's look briefly at what happened in Wisconsin on April 7 during their primary, when people, you know, literally risked their health, maybe their lives, to go to the polls and vote. A lot of people probably would have voted by mail if given the option. But there were a lot of things that went wrong with that, that prevented people from voting by mail. Can you give us, like, one or two examples of things that prevented people from voting by mail in Wisconsin, and that are examples of things that we might face on Election Day in November?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Thank you for asking. I'm fine. I'm with my family in New Haven. My children are slightly up and down as they deal with some uncertainty about the summer and going back to school. But honestly, "}
{"id": "853767127", "date": "2020-05-11", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "How Protecting Voter Safety With Mail-In Ballots Became A Partisan Issue", "question_index": 2, "text": "So did everything break down on party lines, with Democrats wanting more access to mail-in ballots and Republicans, both in the judiciary system and in the legislature, saying, no?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. This is a long tale of woe. But I will just pick a couple of pieces of it. So one thing that happened is Wisconsin has divided government. They have a Democratic governor and a Republican-control"}
{"id": "853767127", "date": "2020-05-11", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "How Protecting Voter Safety With Mail-In Ballots Became A Partisan Issue", "question_index": 3, "text": "In Wisconsin, where a lot of people showed up at the polls, risking their health because they couldn't vote by mail, there were fewer polling places. And that added to the lines. This was especially true in Milwaukee. And one of the reasons why was that a lot of the poll workers are old enough to be in the high-risk category. And they didn't want to take the chance of exposing themselves to the virus. So give us a sense of how this played out in Milwaukee and the state in general - in the state of Wisconsin in general - and if this is the kind of problem we might be looking at in November, where there isn't sufficient opportunity for a mail-in ballots.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Unfortunately, that is exactly what happened. And this is really a running theme in my story and a fear about November, which is that this question of exercising one's right to vote, this very ba"}
{"id": "853767127", "date": "2020-05-11", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "How Protecting Voter Safety With Mail-In Ballots Became A Partisan Issue", "question_index": 4, "text": "Since the election is likely to be decided in the swing states, how many of the swing states have easy access to mail-in ballots on a broad level, you know, on a big level? Because there might be easy access, but the states aren't prepared to process a lot of ballots.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. This was a huge problem, especially in Milwaukee where there are only five out of 180 polling places that are usually open in the city. And in Green Bay, only two out of 31 opened. And people ac"}
{"id": "853767127", "date": "2020-05-11", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "How Protecting Voter Safety With Mail-In Ballots Became A Partisan Issue", "question_index": 5, "text": "Yeah. It seems like, oh, it's the easiest, cheapest thing, you know? You just mail it in. But there's all these behind-the-scenes expenses when you're doing mail-in ballots on a massive level. Can you describe what some of those expenses are?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, let's take a bunch of swing states - Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Florida, North Carolina and Arizona. Of those six, only Arizona is a place where a lot of people have voted by mail "}
{"id": "853767127", "date": "2020-05-11", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "How Protecting Voter Safety With Mail-In Ballots Became A Partisan Issue", "question_index": 6, "text": "And a lot of the states can't afford the cost. They might have had a hard time anyways. But states are really suffering, like so many people are suffering financially, because of the pandemic. So they - the states need to step up because of the pandemic, but they don't have the money to do it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, absolutely. I learned a lot about things like high-speed scanners to count votes and tabulate them for reporting this piece. You need to buy secure drop-off boxes so that people who don't have s"}
{"id": "853767127", "date": "2020-05-11", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "How Protecting Voter Safety With Mail-In Ballots Became A Partisan Issue", "question_index": 7, "text": "How many states have universal vote by mail now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. The states are under a lot of pressure to make these changes. These are expensive changes to make. In the long run, voting by mail can save money, but not when you have to make this big "}
{"id": "853767127", "date": "2020-05-11", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "How Protecting Voter Safety With Mail-In Ballots Became A Partisan Issue", "question_index": 8, "text": "So what can we learn from them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There are five states that currently have universal vote by mail. And what that term means is that all registered voters receive an absentee ballot. They can return it through a secure drop box or in "}
{"id": "853767127", "date": "2020-05-11", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "How Protecting Voter Safety With Mail-In Ballots Became A Partisan Issue", "question_index": 9, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Emily Bazelon. And her article \"Will Americans Lose Their Right To Vote In The Pandemic?\" is in the current issue of The New York Times Magazine, where she's a staff writer. We'll talk more after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", we can learn how to do it. And the secretaries of state, the chief election officials in the states, have been giving lots of advice to other states - you know, you need to place your orders now, an"}
{"id": "853767127", "date": "2020-05-11", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "How Protecting Voter Safety With Mail-In Ballots Became A Partisan Issue", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Emily Bazelon. Her new article \"Will Americans Lose Their Right To Vote In The Pandemic?\" is published in The New York Times Magazine, where she's a staff writer. The Brennan Center for Justice estimates that the pandemic-associated costs of properly running the 2020 elections, including primaries, would be $4 billion. And so far, Congress has promised $400 million, as opposed, again, to $4 billion. Democrats are pushing for more money. Republicans, you say, are blocking their bills. Why is this a partisan fight? Why are Republicans blocking more money for making changes to the election system so that people can vote without exposing themselves to the virus? Why are Republicans also opposing, like, voting by mail during a pandemic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", we can learn how to do it. And the secretaries of state, the chief election officials in the states, have been giving lots of advice to other states - you know, you need to place your orders now, an"}
{"id": "853767127", "date": "2020-05-11", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "How Protecting Voter Safety With Mail-In Ballots Became A Partisan Issue", "question_index": 11, "text": "And I should say the comment that you referred to that Trump made - this was not at a closed-door meeting. This was on \"Fox & Friends\" on Fox News.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this is a great question because it seems like a kind of commonsense solution, and there are some Republicans who recognize that and have said that in states like New Hampshire and Ohio. In addi"}
{"id": "853767127", "date": "2020-05-11", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "How Protecting Voter Safety With Mail-In Ballots Became A Partisan Issue", "question_index": 12, "text": "Do you know if Trump thinks that he benefited from a decreased turnout in 2016?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, this was very much on television. Trump has shifted to the kind of standard justification for reducing participation, for making moves that reduce participation, which is to talk about preventing"}
{"id": "853767127", "date": "2020-05-11", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "How Protecting Voter Safety With Mail-In Ballots Became A Partisan Issue", "question_index": 13, "text": "How much has voter fraud actually been a problem in vote by mail?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm not sure he's talked about that directly, but it is certainly true. There was a decline in voting in some key Democratic strongholds, in cities like Detroit and Milwaukee and Philadelphia, from th"}
{"id": "853767127", "date": "2020-05-11", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "How Protecting Voter Safety With Mail-In Ballots Became A Partisan Issue", "question_index": 14, "text": "In February the Trump campaign and the Republican National Committee announced that they'd spend $10 million on litigation and election monitoring in the 2020 cycle. And soon after that announcement, legal attacks on expanding voting by mail began. So is the Trump campaign using a lot of its election money to try to limit voting by mail, even though we're in the middle of a pandemic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's unusual, but it has happened. And, you know, when you think about it, it sort of makes sense. It's really, really hard to sway an election by having people show up at the polls and vote twice. Li"}
{"id": "853767127", "date": "2020-05-11", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "How Protecting Voter Safety With Mail-In Ballots Became A Partisan Issue", "question_index": 15, "text": "And you write that the new secretary of state in Georgia raised the specter of fraud by announcing a new absentee ballot fraud task force for 2020, and 9 of the 12 members on this task force are Republicans.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we do see these lawsuits. So, for example, the Republican Party in New Mexico is suing to prevent a vote by mail shift for the June primary. And there is a conservative group called True the Vot"}
{"id": "853767127", "date": "2020-05-11", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "How Protecting Voter Safety With Mail-In Ballots Became A Partisan Issue", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, this leads to an issue that you're very concerned about - I know a lot of people in the election world are very concerned about this - in mail-in ballots. If there's any contesting of the ballots, signatures will be compared, or maybe they're just compared as routine, and a lot of people's signatures change over time. So it's a question - there's several questions here. Like, who's analyzing the handwriting? And also, what's on record? Because if it's on record from a signature from, like, 25 years ago, I mean, chances are your signature has changed a little bit since then.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So from the point of view of voting rights groups in Georgia, that also looks like an intimidation tactic because one of the things that the secretary of state in Georgia said when he set up th"}
{"id": "853767127", "date": "2020-05-11", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "How Protecting Voter Safety With Mail-In Ballots Became A Partisan Issue", "question_index": 17, "text": "Is signature verification an issue for every mail-in ballot or is it only when a ballot is contested?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So this whole business of verifying signatures is a rabbit hole that I went down for this piece. And I have significant concerns that this could turn into the hanging chads of the 2020 election "}
{"id": "853767127", "date": "2020-05-11", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "How Protecting Voter Safety With Mail-In Ballots Became A Partisan Issue", "question_index": 18, "text": "And there's a possibility, like, your ballot would be - if there isn't transparency, that your ballot would be rejected and you wouldn't even know it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What happens in a lot of states is somebody reviews every signature. So there's human review. Other states, that happens by machine. Then if a signature gets flagged, what the best practice is for it "}
{"id": "853767127", "date": "2020-05-11", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "How Protecting Voter Safety With Mail-In Ballots Became A Partisan Issue", "question_index": 19, "text": "So do you think for a lot of people, their vote would be more secure if they actually went to the polls rather than voting by mail? Is that something people should be thinking about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. And, you know, the difference between having a rejection rate in a state of, say, 1% or 2% or 3%, that sounds small. But in a big election, that's thousands of votes. And so that can eas"}
{"id": "853767127", "date": "2020-05-11", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "How Protecting Voter Safety With Mail-In Ballots Became A Partisan Issue", "question_index": 20, "text": "OK, let's take another break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Emily Bazelon. Her article \"Will Americans Lose Their Right To Vote In The Pandemic?\" is published in this week's New York Times Magazine. We'll talk more after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think the main thing to think about is that if you want to vote by mail, just follow the instructions really carefully. So you have to sign the ballot. You have to date it properly. Make sure "}
{"id": "853767127", "date": "2020-05-11", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "How Protecting Voter Safety With Mail-In Ballots Became A Partisan Issue", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Emily Bazelon about her new article \"Will Americans Lose The Right To Vote In The Pandemic?\" It's published in the latest issue of The New York Times Magazine. The safest way to vote will be by mail. Bazelon focuses on some of the financial and political obstacles that are standing in the way in many states. She's a staff writer for the magazine, focusing on legal issues. She's also the Truman Capote Fellow for creative writing and law at Yale Law School. You write that now officials could use the virus as an excuse to shut the polls selectively to the benefit of their party. Explain how that could happen.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think the main thing to think about is that if you want to vote by mail, just follow the instructions really carefully. So you have to sign the ballot. You have to date it properly. Make sure "}
{"id": "853767127", "date": "2020-05-11", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "How Protecting Voter Safety With Mail-In Ballots Became A Partisan Issue", "question_index": 22, "text": "Is there any way of preventing that from happening?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. This is a kind of nightmare scenario for democracy. But imagine a world in which there is an outbreak in a particular city, Las Vegas or San Francisco or a city in a swing state, like Philadelph"}
{"id": "853767127", "date": "2020-05-11", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "How Protecting Voter Safety With Mail-In Ballots Became A Partisan Issue", "question_index": 23, "text": "As you mentioned - I live in Philadelphia. That's where FRESH AIR is produced. And of course, Philadelphia is in Pennsylvania. And as you point out, June 2, the day of the postponed primary, will be the first test of whether large numbers of people can successfully vote by mail, because it was just last year that the state legislature passed a law that provides absentee ballots without an excuse. You used to have to explain why you couldn't physically go to the polls. You no longer need to do that. And in one week, Pennsylvania got 160,000 applications for mail-in ballots versus 19,000 in the same period in 2016. So we'll see if the state is equipped to deal with the huge numbers that they're going to be getting compared to the numbers they've gotten in the past.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the political pressure on state officials to make sure that they are being upstanding in how they make sure people have access is a really important protection. And this is also where voting by "}
{"id": "853767127", "date": "2020-05-11", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "How Protecting Voter Safety With Mail-In Ballots Became A Partisan Issue", "question_index": 24, "text": "Are there ways that we can make it easier, with just a few months left before the election, for people to vote by mail and to be confident that their votes will count?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So one of the interesting phone calls I had in reporting this piece - I called Richard Gebbie, who runs a company that can do the kind of bulk mailing that election officials need. And he said h"}
{"id": "853767127", "date": "2020-05-11", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "How Protecting Voter Safety With Mail-In Ballots Became A Partisan Issue", "question_index": 25, "text": "So several states have decided that they're going to do mail-in ballots for everybody. Like, if you're registered, you will get a mail-in ballot. So what states recently decided that they would do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I think, honestly, the most important thing is for Congress to fund the states. And that's a tricky thing for me to say as a journalist because that's become a partisan issue. But when you jus"}
{"id": "853767127", "date": "2020-05-11", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "How Protecting Voter Safety With Mail-In Ballots Became A Partisan Issue", "question_index": 26, "text": "My guest is Emily Bazelon, a staff writer for The New York Times Magazine. Her new article is titled \"Will Americans Lose Their Right To Vote In The Pandemic?\" Shortly after we recorded the interview, California Governor Gavin Newsom issued an executive order in response to the coronavirus, saying every registered voter in that state will automatically be sent a mail-in ballot for the November election. After a break, we'll talk about how the post office's financial crisis might affect mail-in ballots. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my home state of Connecticut, the secretary of state just said, yes. We're going to mail every registered voter a mail-in ballot for November. There is talk of doing that in Massachusetts. The l"}
{"id": "853767127", "date": "2020-05-11", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "How Protecting Voter Safety With Mail-In Ballots Became A Partisan Issue", "question_index": 27, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is Emily Bazelon. We're talking about her new article in The New York Times Magazine, which is called, \"Will Americans Lose Their Right To Vote In The Pandemic?\" You know, a lot of the article is about the expansion of mail-in ballots for this election during the pandemic, and the political opposition and the financial obstacles that may prevent it from happening on as massive a scale as it could. So, Emily, you know, we were talking about expanding voting by mail. But if the states are going to expand vote by mail, they'll be relying on the U.S. Postal Service, which is projecting a $13 billion shortfall by the end of their fiscal year in September. The Postal Service and the Treasury Department have been negotiating over a $10 billion line of credit that's part of the coronavirus relief package. But President Trump has threatened to block future funding unless the postal service meets his demands. Meanwhile, a new postmaster general was just named who's a major Republican donor and a Trump donor and ally. So what is Trump demanding of the Postal Service?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my home state of Connecticut, the secretary of state just said, yes. We're going to mail every registered voter a mail-in ballot for November. There is talk of doing that in Massachusetts. The l"}
{"id": "853767127", "date": "2020-05-11", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "How Protecting Voter Safety With Mail-In Ballots Became A Partisan Issue", "question_index": 28, "text": "So are there problems that the post office is having or might have that could prevent it from delivering and returning mail-in ballots for the November election?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Trump has been having a feud with the postal service for a while now. He is demanding that they raise their rates for packages. And according to administration officials - this has been reported by ma"}
{"id": "853767127", "date": "2020-05-11", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "How Protecting Voter Safety With Mail-In Ballots Became A Partisan Issue", "question_index": 29, "text": "President Trump has been very suspicious of mail-in ballots. He's talked about the possibility of fraud. He's also talked about how it would be bad for Republicans. So knowing that he is not a fan of mail-in ballots and that he thinks it might work against him or against his party, is, like, withholding funding possibly a way for him to make it less possible or less easy to go to a more widespread use of mail-in ballots? Could this be, like, a political tool?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the post office is warning they're going to run out of money by the end of September if they don't get some help from the federal government. And yes, in an election that depends heavily on mail"}
{"id": "853767127", "date": "2020-05-11", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "How Protecting Voter Safety With Mail-In Ballots Became A Partisan Issue", "question_index": 30, "text": "Since the end of the fiscal year in September is so close to the November election, and if Trump follows through on his threat to withhold funding, the post office would be hard hit just before the election, just before the expansion of mail-in balloting because of the pandemic. Are there any legal restrictions that you're aware of in threatening to stop funding the post office just a few weeks before a presidential election?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I think it would have that effect whether or not he's thinking about it that way. To sort of close the loop about the post office's charges for packages, the post office actually runs a profit"}
{"id": "853767127", "date": "2020-05-11", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "How Protecting Voter Safety With Mail-In Ballots Became A Partisan Issue", "question_index": 31, "text": "What do we know about Louis DeJoy, who is the new postmaster general, who's expected to actually take office in mid-June?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a great question. The Constitution says that Congress can establish a postal service. But it doesn't say it must. And so the postal service is, basically, a voluntary organization that the gove"}
{"id": "853767127", "date": "2020-05-11", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "How Protecting Voter Safety With Mail-In Ballots Became A Partisan Issue", "question_index": 32, "text": "So this throws just a level of uncertainty surrounding mail-in voting. I mean, there's so much uncertainty. Who knows? And to have this added as more uncertainty right before a really critical presidential election during a pandemic - I don't know.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's a big donor to the Trump campaign and to other Republican causes. He gave more than 2 million to the Trump campaign and other Republican causes since 2016. He's the owner of a real estate and con"}
{"id": "853767127", "date": "2020-05-11", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "How Protecting Voter Safety With Mail-In Ballots Became A Partisan Issue", "question_index": 33, "text": "The Postal Service is in financial trouble in part because of competition from private companies, like UPS and FedEx. But isn't the post office supposed to be a kind of public service. And even if it loses money, isn't it still a public service? Like, is its value measured by whether it's in debt or makes a profit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're right about creating a great deal of uncertainty. There's another way to think about this, which is that it's a bargaining chip in the negotiations over money, over funding from Congress. We've"}
{"id": "853767127", "date": "2020-05-11", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "How Protecting Voter Safety With Mail-In Ballots Became A Partisan Issue", "question_index": 34, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Emily Bazelon. Her article \"Will Americans Lose Their Right To Vote In The Pandemic?\" is in the current issue of The New York Times Magazine, where she's a staff writer. We'll talk more after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think one of the things that's important that you're getting at is that the Postal Service has a responsibility to operate in every single corner of the country. UPS and FedEx don't have to ha"}
{"id": "853767127", "date": "2020-05-11", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "How Protecting Voter Safety With Mail-In Ballots Became A Partisan Issue", "question_index": 35, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Emily Bazelon. Her new article \"Will Americans Lose Their Right To Vote In The Pandemic?\" is published in The New York Times Magazine, where she's a staff writer. So, you know, you've talked about a few things that can really go wrong. What are some of your nightmare scenarios that could play out during the pandemic on Election Day?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think one of the things that's important that you're getting at is that the Postal Service has a responsibility to operate in every single corner of the country. UPS and FedEx don't have to ha"}
{"id": "853767127", "date": "2020-05-11", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "How Protecting Voter Safety With Mail-In Ballots Became A Partisan Issue", "question_index": 36, "text": "That's", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my real nightmare scenario - and I want to say, I do think this is unlikely - but the Constitution actually still gives legislatures, lawmakers the power to pick the electors who cast the votes "}
{"id": "853767127", "date": "2020-05-11", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "How Protecting Voter Safety With Mail-In Ballots Became A Partisan Issue", "question_index": 37, "text": "a pretty nightmare scenario. What would it take for that to happen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my real nightmare scenario - and I want to say, I do think this is unlikely - but the Constitution actually still gives legislatures, lawmakers the power to pick the electors who cast the votes "}
{"id": "853767127", "date": "2020-05-11", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "How Protecting Voter Safety With Mail-In Ballots Became A Partisan Issue", "question_index": 38, "text": "You're concerned that warning in advance about, like, the specter of voter fraud, especially in mail-in ballots, can be a real problem. It - like the way the president has been warning about that. What do you see as the problem that his warnings might ultimately create?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it would just take a state legislature trying to test the boundaries of its constitutional power, honestly."}
{"id": "853767127", "date": "2020-05-11", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "How Protecting Voter Safety With Mail-In Ballots Became A Partisan Issue", "question_index": 39, "text": "So the Voting Rights Act was gutted in 2013. The act used to make states with a history of voter suppression - if you made a change in your voting system, you had to get it approved first. And now that the Voting Rights Act was gutted, the states can do what they want. They don't have to get approval first. How do you think the gutting of the Voting Rights Act is affecting what the plans are for 2020?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When you start, as a politician, talking about an election with a lot of distrust and you're kind of talking about chaos and disorder and you make it sound like something's going to go wrong, you're r"}
{"id": "853767127", "date": "2020-05-11", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "How Protecting Voter Safety With Mail-In Ballots Became A Partisan Issue", "question_index": 40, "text": "Do you think it's too late for us to have an organized election that we can really be confident about assuming that the pandemic continues during November?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one really important effect of the Supreme Court's decision to effectively gut this key part of the Voting Rights Act is that states can close polling places. And so what we've seen since 2013 i"}
{"id": "853767127", "date": "2020-05-11", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "How Protecting Voter Safety With Mail-In Ballots Became A Partisan Issue", "question_index": 41, "text": "So finally, you are the Truman Capote fellow for creative writing and law at Yale Law School. Yale Law School, like most colleges now, is closed. What does that mean for you as a fellow?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I don't think it's too late. And I'm glad you asked that because I don't want to convey that impression at all. I think we need to address this with urgency in the coming months. We cannot wait an"}
{"id": "853767127", "date": "2020-05-11", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "How Protecting Voter Safety With Mail-In Ballots Became A Partisan Issue", "question_index": 42, "text": "It makes me so sad, too, because in addition to the academic part of college, there's a very profound social part of it. And, like, that is just being denied now to students.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Yale Law School finished its semester online. I was not actually teaching this semester. So I was more watching my colleagues and other people who teach at Yale figure out how to do all their cl"}
{"id": "853767127", "date": "2020-05-11", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "How Protecting Voter Safety With Mail-In Ballots Became A Partisan Issue", "question_index": 43, "text": "Well, Emily Bazelon, please stay well. I wish you and your family good health. And thank you for your reporting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I have a son who's a sophomore in college, and he has been very sad about losing that part of his education, and it really is a part of his education. We've created residential colleges because w"}
{"id": "853767127", "date": "2020-05-11", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "How Protecting Voter Safety With Mail-In Ballots Became A Partisan Issue", "question_index": 44, "text": "Emily Bazelon's article \"Will Americans Lose Their Right To Vote In The Pandemic?\" is in the current issue of The New York Times Magazine, where she's a staff writer. Her latest book \"Charged: The New Movement To Transform American Prosecution And End Mass Incarceration\" just came out in paperback. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, my guest will be Michael Arceneaux, author of the new collection of personal essays \"I Don't Want To Die Poor.\" The title is a reference to the student loan debt that he's still paying off 13 years after graduating from Howard University. His first book, \"I Can't Date Jesus: Love, Sex, Family, Race, And Other Reasons I've Put My Faith In Beyonce,\" was about growing up black, Catholic and gay in Houston. I hope you'll join us. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Mooj Zadie, Thea Challoner and Seth Kelley. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross. Today is our show's 33rd anniversary. We made the transition from a daily local to a daily national show on May 11, 1987. We devoted part of that first broadcast to a concert of songs by Irving Berlin, who turned 99 that day. Yes, he was still alive. So many people who have something they would be celebrating with others - an anniversary, birthday, graduation, wedding, et cetera - are celebrating at home in solitude or semisolitude. But while we quietly celebrate in pajamas, sweatpants or old jeans, we can listen to a great Irving Berlin song about stepping out in elegant clothes. Here's Fred Astaire singing \"Top Hat, White Tie And Tails.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me. And I wish you back the same, Terry."}
{"id": "855986938", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "John Barry", "title": "What The 1918 Flu Pandemic Can Tell Us About The COVID-19 Crisis", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Back in 2004 when I interviewed the author of the book \"The Great Influenza\" about the 1918 influenza pandemic, the deadliest pandemic in history, I thought, this is fascinating history. Thank goodness I'm not living through anything like this. And now here I am and here you are, our lives having been changed by the COVID-19 pandemic. And there's that 2004 book on today's bestseller list. And here's the author, my guest John Barry. He's going to tell us about some of the successful strategies and mistakes from 1918 that might give us some clues for how to proceed in this current pandemic. Barry co-wrote the paper about the future of the COVID-19 pandemic and lessons learned from pandemic influenza that was published April 30 by the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota. He's a professor at Tulane University School of Public Health and Tropical Medicine. John Barry, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Did you expect when you wrote the book that you would witness a pandemic like the one we're enduring now?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "855986938", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "John Barry", "title": "What The 1918 Flu Pandemic Can Tell Us About The COVID-19 Crisis", "question_index": 1, "text": "President Trump called the coronavirus the Democrats' new hoax early in the pandemic. That was a reference to a new hoax after the impeachment hoax. Now the virus is in the White House. One of the problems in 1918 was political denial. Give us an example of the political denial from 1918 and how that made matters worse.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes and no. I think anybody who understands anything about infectious disease recognize that we were going to sooner or later face something like this. Obviously, in last 15, 20 years, you had H5N1, S"}
{"id": "855986938", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "John Barry", "title": "What The 1918 Flu Pandemic Can Tell Us About The COVID-19 Crisis", "question_index": 2, "text": "How did the denial lead to more death?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we were at war. And Woodrow Wilson, the president, was entirely focused on the war - entirely - and the entire government was entirely focused on the war. And therefore, national public health l"}
{"id": "855986938", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "John Barry", "title": "What The 1918 Flu Pandemic Can Tell Us About The COVID-19 Crisis", "question_index": 3, "text": "How lethal was it? What was the casualty count?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there was - until it became extremely obvious how dangerous that disease was, people did not take any precautions because of the reassurances. And also once they recognized that they were being "}
{"id": "855986938", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "John Barry", "title": "What The 1918 Flu Pandemic Can Tell Us About The COVID-19 Crisis", "question_index": 4, "text": "One of the things that we're facing now is figuring out how to reopen cities and states and restart the economy. People are suffering not just from the virus but from unemployment. And they need money. They need food. And the question is how do you do it? How do you do it without increasing the number of people who are sick and dying from COVID-19? So what can we learn from 1918 about what happens if you reopen too soon?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, worldwide, the deaths were probably at least 50 million and may have reached 100 million. So if you adjust for population, that would equal about 220 million to 440 million deaths today. Thankfu"}
{"id": "855986938", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "John Barry", "title": "What The 1918 Flu Pandemic Can Tell Us About The COVID-19 Crisis", "question_index": 5, "text": "Do you think we're starting to see something similar in places that were reasonably successful in shutting down the virus? I'm thinking of Singapore, South Korea, Wuhan, China - they're starting to see new cases again after reopening.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, a lot of cities did reopen too soon and had to close down a second time and in some cases a third time. I think San Antonio would be a good example of what happened back then. They were just abo"}
{"id": "855986938", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "John Barry", "title": "What The 1918 Flu Pandemic Can Tell Us About The COVID-19 Crisis", "question_index": 6, "text": "The 1918 flu pandemic coincided with World War I. How much of the initial spread was through soldiers in tight quarters and then traveling overseas and back?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, no matter how careful you are, when you reopen, there are going to be cases. The disease, the virus is out there. The question is how careful you are going to be when you reopen, how m"}
{"id": "855986938", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "John Barry", "title": "What The 1918 Flu Pandemic Can Tell Us About The COVID-19 Crisis", "question_index": 7, "text": "How did the Army try to control the outbreaks in its own camps?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, it certainly was spread among soldiers, and it seemed that the shipment of U.S. troops in April spread the disease in Europe. I think that's clear. But all these things would have happ"}
{"id": "855986938", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "John Barry", "title": "What The 1918 Flu Pandemic Can Tell Us About The COVID-19 Crisis", "question_index": 8, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is John Barry. His 2004 book \"The Great Influenza,\" about the 1918 pandemic, is on the current bestseller list. We'll talk more after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were quite aggressive, actually, initially. The best scientists and physicians in the country were in the Army. The dean of the Johns Hopkins Medical School, a guy named William Welch, became a c"}
{"id": "855986938", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "John Barry", "title": "What The 1918 Flu Pandemic Can Tell Us About The COVID-19 Crisis", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with John Barry. His 2004 book \"The Great Influenza,\" about the 1918 flu pandemic, the deadliest pandemic in history, is on the current bestseller list. He's a professor at the Tulane University School of Public Health. So how did the pandemic affect the war effort? You know, you write about, in your book, how - to keep up morale - you were supposed to say positive things. And there was a lot of censorship, but we'll get to that in a minute. But one of the ways the pandemic affected the war effort was the draft was eventually canceled. How was that connected to the pandemic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were quite aggressive, actually, initially. The best scientists and physicians in the country were in the Army. The dean of the Johns Hopkins Medical School, a guy named William Welch, became a c"}
{"id": "855986938", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "John Barry", "title": "What The 1918 Flu Pandemic Can Tell Us About The COVID-19 Crisis", "question_index": 10, "text": "You know, you write about how, in 1918, there were - were there bodies in the street? You write the bodies were literally piling up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the Army camps - and that was on September 26, 1918, the - incidentally, nobody realized how close the war was to ending. There was an anticipation that the allied forces would have to launch a "}
{"id": "855986938", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "John Barry", "title": "What The 1918 Flu Pandemic Can Tell Us About The COVID-19 Crisis", "question_index": 11, "text": "In the street? At homes? Like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's correct. And..."}
{"id": "855986938", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "John Barry", "title": "What The 1918 Flu Pandemic Can Tell Us About The COVID-19 Crisis", "question_index": 12, "text": "You know, actually, when President Woodrow Wilson was negotiating the end of the war in Paris, he came down with the virus.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In - well, you know, they were digging mass graves. They were - you know, had no place to store them. You know, they - you know, it varied, of course, from city to city and Army camp to Army camp. You"}
{"id": "855986938", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "John Barry", "title": "What The 1918 Flu Pandemic Can Tell Us About The COVID-19 Crisis", "question_index": 13, "text": "What happened in the peace plan or what happened to Wilson? Or both?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And I think it affected what happened in a very deleterious way."}
{"id": "855986938", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "John Barry", "title": "What The 1918 Flu Pandemic Can Tell Us About The COVID-19 Crisis", "question_index": 14, "text": "President Wilson never publicly addressed the pandemic. Why not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Both. Wilson was quite sick. Classic case of the 1918 virus - very high fever, violent coughing, so violent that he had difficulty breathing, other symptoms as well. But a comprehensive look written i"}
{"id": "855986938", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "John Barry", "title": "What The 1918 Flu Pandemic Can Tell Us About The COVID-19 Crisis", "question_index": 15, "text": "So the flu pandemic of 1918 coincided with World War I, and there were policies to prevent anything that would lower morale, including the Sedition Act, which made it punishable by 20 years in jail to, quote, \"utter, print, write or publish any disloyal, profane, scurrilous or abusive language about the government of the U.S.\" And you could go to jail for cursing the government or criticizing it, even if what you said was true. So how did this emphasis on saying positive things, keeping up morale and not saying anything negative about the government or anything that would lower morale, how did that affect information - helpful, useful, important information - about the pandemic and how it was spreading and what you needed to do to protect yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's a good question. I don't really have an answer other than his personality. He was so focused on the war. That was everything to him, and he would not allow anything to distract him, and"}
{"id": "855986938", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "John Barry", "title": "What The 1918 Flu Pandemic Can Tell Us About The COVID-19 Crisis", "question_index": 16, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is John Barry. His 2004 book \"The Great Influenza,\" about the flu pandemic of 1918, is on the current bestseller list. We'll talk more about 1918 and today's pandemic after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there was fake news in 1918, but it was coming from the government, and it was being echoed by newspapers around the country. You know, consistent with that law that you just quoted, that's why "}
{"id": "855986938", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "John Barry", "title": "What The 1918 Flu Pandemic Can Tell Us About The COVID-19 Crisis", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with John Barry. His 2004 book, \"The Great Influenza,\" about the 1918 flu pandemic, the deadliest pandemic in history, is on the current bestseller list. He co-wrote a paper about the future of the COVID-19 pandemic and lessons learned from pandemic influenza, which was published last month by the Center for Infectious Disease Research and Policy at the University of Minnesota. Barry is a professor at the Tulane University School of Public Health and Tropical Medicine. What about the newspapers? Were they accurately reporting what was going on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there was fake news in 1918, but it was coming from the government, and it was being echoed by newspapers around the country. You know, consistent with that law that you just quoted, that's why "}
{"id": "855986938", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "John Barry", "title": "What The 1918 Flu Pandemic Can Tell Us About The COVID-19 Crisis", "question_index": 18, "text": "The Sedition Act?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, they were, as a general rule, not. In fact, early in the pandemic when one Wisconsin newspaper actually tried to report the truth, the Army initiated prosecution proceedings under the law yo"}
{"id": "855986938", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "John Barry", "title": "What The 1918 Flu Pandemic Can Tell Us About The COVID-19 Crisis", "question_index": 19, "text": "A famous example of something that was done wrong during the 1918 pandemic that we've heard a lot of references to recently is what happened in Philadelphia, when it decided to have a war bond drive and not call it off in the face of the pandemic. And I want you to describe that war bond drive. And this, of course, was to raise money for the war effort. So what was that? This was basically a parade that stretched for, like, two miles. Describe what you know about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct. So they were going to try to put those editors and writers in jail. They dropped the prosecution as the pandemic proceeded. But again, all around the country, in most cases, newspapers were n"}
{"id": "855986938", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "John Barry", "title": "What The 1918 Flu Pandemic Can Tell Us About The COVID-19 Crisis", "question_index": 20, "text": "Did you think about the Philadelphia example when New Orleans held its Mardi Gras parade just a few weeks ago?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was heavily promoted. Philadelphians were supposed to demonstrate their patriotism by coming out, by supporting the war effort, buying Liberty loans, bonds, and, you know, was going to be one"}
{"id": "855986938", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "John Barry", "title": "What The 1918 Flu Pandemic Can Tell Us About The COVID-19 Crisis", "question_index": 21, "text": "Do you feel very frustrated and worried watching us fall - like, making some of the same mistakes that were made in 1918.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't. You know, as I mentioned earlier, in January, I actually wrote a piece for The Washington Post saying, you know, this - arguing, making the point, really, that the virus could not be contain"}
{"id": "855986938", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "John Barry", "title": "What The 1918 Flu Pandemic Can Tell Us About The COVID-19 Crisis", "question_index": 22, "text": "What are some of the major mistakes you think we are repeating or we have repeated?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "855986938", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "John Barry", "title": "What The 1918 Flu Pandemic Can Tell Us About The COVID-19 Crisis", "question_index": 23, "text": "John Barry, thank you so much for coming back to FRESH AIR. Be well. Be safe.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first, for very different reasons, the outbreak was trivialized for a long time. And if these public health measures - social distancing and so forth - are going to be successful, people have to"}
{"id": "855986938", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "John Barry", "title": "What The 1918 Flu Pandemic Can Tell Us About The COVID-19 Crisis", "question_index": 24, "text": "Thank you so much. John Barry is the author of the 2004 book \"The Great Influenza\" about the 1918 pandemic. It's on the current bestseller list. He's a professor at the Tulane University School of Public Health. After we take a short break, we'll listen back to an interview with Ian Whitcomb, who had the 1965 novelty hit \"You Turn Me On\" and left the rock world soon after to perform and write about pop music of the early 20th century. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And same to you."}
{"id": "855998645", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "Ian Whitcomb", "title": "Remembering Ian Whitcomb, An Eccentric Singer-Songwriter Who Became An Author", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're going to remember Ian Whitcomb, an eccentric figure in the world of pop music. He died last month in Pasadena from complications of a stroke. He was 78. Many people knew him for his 1965 novelty record \"You Turn Me On,\" which was a top-10 hit. But after a brief career in rock music, he turned to the music he loved most, early American popular song. He wrote books about those songs, covering the years from the early 20th century to the dawn of rock 'n' roll, including \"After The Ball: Pop Music From Rag To Rock,\" published in 1972, and \"Irving Berlin And Ragtime America,\" whose publication was the occasion for my interview with him in 1988, which we're about to hear. Let's start with his recording of an obscure Irving Berlin song, \"When The Folks High Up Do The New Low-Down (ph).\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "855998645", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "Ian Whitcomb", "title": "Remembering Ian Whitcomb, An Eccentric Singer-Songwriter Who Became An Author", "question_index": 1, "text": "Was American music ever considered a bad influence when you were growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Lenox Avenue is known for doing the low-down. But you'll find they're not alone in doing the low-down. Fifth Avenue's learning how. They had to fall. Fifth Avenue does it now. But that's not"}
{"id": "855998645", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "Ian Whitcomb", "title": "Remembering Ian Whitcomb, An Eccentric Singer-Songwriter Who Became An Author", "question_index": 2, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it certainly was. It certainly was at the rather expensive prep school that I was sent to to improve me. The vice headmaster of the school - and he was vice in all senses of the word - he had a co"}
{"id": "855998645", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "Ian Whitcomb", "title": "Remembering Ian Whitcomb, An Eccentric Singer-Songwriter Who Became An Author", "question_index": 3, "text": "Well, because it had the word kiss in it? No. Not because of kiss. It implied sex.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Gilbert and Sullivan and so forth. And he was called Captain - he's dead now, so we can talk about it - Captain Manning (ph). And he had Gilbert and Sullivan. But he had a little bit of this Americ"}
{"id": "855998645", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "Ian Whitcomb", "title": "Remembering Ian Whitcomb, An Eccentric Singer-Songwriter Who Became An Author", "question_index": 4, "text": "How did you finally get to go to America? And how old were you the first time you came?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "These were pre-rock 'n' roll records. But in all senses and sounds, they were rock 'n' roll. I mean, they were about the same things. They were about sex. And they were set to a syncopated beat."}
{"id": "855998645", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "Ian Whitcomb", "title": "Remembering Ian Whitcomb, An Eccentric Singer-Songwriter Who Became An Author", "question_index": 5, "text": "The first hit that you had - actually, the only...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let me see. I was, I think, 20 - yeah. I must have been 21 - 21, 22. It was 1963. I'll never forget that year."}
{"id": "855998645", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "Ian Whitcomb", "title": "Remembering Ian Whitcomb, An Eccentric Singer-Songwriter Who Became An Author", "question_index": 6, "text": "...Hit that made the charts", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Actually, the..."}
{"id": "855998645", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "Ian Whitcomb", "title": "Remembering Ian Whitcomb, An Eccentric Singer-Songwriter Who Became An Author", "question_index": 7, "text": "was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Actually, the..."}
{"id": "855998645", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "Ian Whitcomb", "title": "Remembering Ian Whitcomb, An Eccentric Singer-Songwriter Who Became An Author", "question_index": 8, "text": "Was \"N-E-R-V-O-U-S!\" on the charts, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, Terry I must get this..."}
{"id": "855998645", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "Ian Whitcomb", "title": "Remembering Ian Whitcomb, An Eccentric Singer-Songwriter Who Became An Author", "question_index": 9, "text": "They were all on the chart, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. They were all - no, no. You..."}
{"id": "855998645", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "Ian Whitcomb", "title": "Remembering Ian Whitcomb, An Eccentric Singer-Songwriter Who Became An Author", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Sporting life - \"This Sporting Life\" was on the charts. It reached 99."}
{"id": "855998645", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "Ian Whitcomb", "title": "Remembering Ian Whitcomb, An Eccentric Singer-Songwriter Who Became An Author", "question_index": 11, "text": "How did you write \"You Turn Me On?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that was the first sort of minor hit."}
{"id": "855998645", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "Ian Whitcomb", "title": "Remembering Ian Whitcomb, An Eccentric Singer-Songwriter Who Became An Author", "question_index": 12, "text": "What did you have to do to promote the record? Did you do anything? I think promoting novelty rap records - and that was really a novelty record - is probably different than, say, promoting a ballad or, you know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Come on now, honey. You know you really turn me on. Come on now, honey. You know you really turn me on. And when - and when you do, (panting), that's my song."}
{"id": "855998645", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "Ian Whitcomb", "title": "Remembering Ian Whitcomb, An Eccentric Singer-Songwriter Who Became An Author", "question_index": 13, "text": "You really did? OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, I didn't promote it. I tried to stop it. That is absolutely..."}
{"id": "855998645", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "Ian Whitcomb", "title": "Remembering Ian Whitcomb, An Eccentric Singer-Songwriter Who Became An Author", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, once you were no longer on the charts - and it was a pretty short time that you were - is that when you really started seriously turning to Tin Pan Alley?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's absolutely true. I tried to stop the record. I thought it was so disgusting. I had a protest song about - \"No Tears For Johnny.\" It was an anti-war song. This bloody record company, they said, "}
{"id": "855998645", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "Ian Whitcomb", "title": "Remembering Ian Whitcomb, An Eccentric Singer-Songwriter Who Became An Author", "question_index": 15, "text": "You've just completed a book about Irving Berlin. Why did you want to write a book about him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'd always liked music - old songs. And I started researching. By that time, I discovered the real ragtime, Scott Joplin. And then I started getting - you know, because I'm really a novelty man,"}
{"id": "855998645", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "Ian Whitcomb", "title": "Remembering Ian Whitcomb, An Eccentric Singer-Songwriter Who Became An Author", "question_index": 16, "text": "Has living in America given you a different perspective on American Tin Pan Alley?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, because I - you see, I centered in on him as the man who was the beginning and, perhaps, the end the sort of pop that I like. I mean, he really did start modern American popular song. There was "}
{"id": "855998645", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "Ian Whitcomb", "title": "Remembering Ian Whitcomb, An Eccentric Singer-Songwriter Who Became An Author", "question_index": 17, "text": "That's the name of a song", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I admire it even more. You see, I see this spirit, this American spirit. Sometimes I get misunderstood. Sometimes people here say, how dare you come here, an Englishman and a failure at that, and"}
{"id": "855998645", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "Ian Whitcomb", "title": "Remembering Ian Whitcomb, An Eccentric Singer-Songwriter Who Became An Author", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I admire it even more. You see, I see this spirit, this American spirit. Sometimes I get misunderstood. Sometimes people here say, how dare you come here, an Englishman and a failure at that, and"}
{"id": "855998645", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "Ian Whitcomb", "title": "Remembering Ian Whitcomb, An Eccentric Singer-Songwriter Who Became An Author", "question_index": 19, "text": "Well, Ian Whitcomb, I want to thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that was Berlin's song, which he wrote, by the way, for his big soldier show \"Yip Yip Yaphank\" in World War I. You know, that song was canned from the show in World War I in 1917 - 1918, I mean,"}
{"id": "855998645", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "Ian Whitcomb", "title": "Remembering Ian Whitcomb, An Eccentric Singer-Songwriter Who Became An Author", "question_index": 20, "text": "Ian...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, thank you very much for putting up with me."}
{"id": "855998645", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "Ian Whitcomb", "title": "Remembering Ian Whitcomb, An Eccentric Singer-Songwriter Who Became An Author", "question_index": 21, "text": "Ian, that was fun.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And America. Thank you, America."}
{"id": "855998645", "date": "2020-05-14", "guest": "Ian Whitcomb", "title": "Remembering Ian Whitcomb, An Eccentric Singer-Songwriter Who Became An Author", "question_index": 22, "text": "My interview with Ian Whitcomb is recorded in 1988. He died last month of complications from a stroke. He was 78. After we take a short break, Lloyd Schwartz will review new recordings of music by Bach and Handel. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\""}
{"id": "856783986", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Jerry Stiller", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Comedian And Actor Jerry Stiller", "question_index": 0, "text": "When you play George's father, do you think of yourself as playing your own father?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As George Costanza) All right, please. Please. I cannot have this constant bickering. Stress is very damaging to the epidermis"}
{"id": "856783986", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Jerry Stiller", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Comedian And Actor Jerry Stiller", "question_index": 1, "text": "Maybe it was easier for your father to understand the work of a stagehand than the work of an actor.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, in a way I - it's all of the things that my father wanted me to do when I was just starting out as a teenager. When I told him I wanted to be an actor, for instance, there was a kind of a pallor"}
{"id": "856783986", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Jerry Stiller", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Comedian And Actor Jerry Stiller", "question_index": 2, "text": "I had to do that when I started to drive", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My father was a New York City bus driver. He was 5'3\". He was probably the shortest bus driver in all of New York City. He was Jewish, which was not what most bus drivers were. And he had to put a Que"}
{"id": "856783986", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Jerry Stiller", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Comedian And Actor Jerry Stiller", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My father was a New York City bus driver. He was 5'3\". He was probably the shortest bus driver in all of New York City. He was Jewish, which was not what most bus drivers were. And he had to put a Que"}
{"id": "856783986", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Jerry Stiller", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Comedian And Actor Jerry Stiller", "question_index": 4, "text": "Of course, I wasn't driving a bus.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So anyway he never had..."}
{"id": "856783986", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Jerry Stiller", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Comedian And Actor Jerry Stiller", "question_index": 5, "text": "Now, in the movie \"The Pickle,\" which was directed by Paul Mazursky, about a theater director - a film director played by Danny Aiello, you play Danny Aiello's agent. And it was fun to see you as an agent. And I was wondering if you could share with us any great agent stories from your life", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And so the working aspect of life was very close to him. In other words, if you put in your 10, 12 hours a day, that meant to you were worthy of something. I, of course, looked at it like, you k"}
{"id": "856783986", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Jerry Stiller", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Comedian And Actor Jerry Stiller", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And so the working aspect of life was very close to him. In other words, if you put in your 10, 12 hours a day, that meant to you were worthy of something. I, of course, looked at it like, you k"}
{"id": "856783986", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Jerry Stiller", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Comedian And Actor Jerry Stiller", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there were times when we were starting out in the business, you used to make the rounds, you see. And rounds meant not only seeing agents but also seeing producers. And there was one thing that "}
{"id": "856783986", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Jerry Stiller", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Comedian And Actor Jerry Stiller", "question_index": 8, "text": "So it's like a vaudeville routine.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I walked out of the office, and I said, I just saw Lee Shubert. I couldn't get over the fact that I had made it this business. So I was never afraid to knock on doors or talk to people. Another wa"}
{"id": "856783986", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Jerry Stiller", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Comedian And Actor Jerry Stiller", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well, let me just ask you about the Shubert story. So when you got out of the office and this was, like, your big brush with Mr. Shubert, did you say to yourself, well, wait, maybe I should have lied, maybe I should have, like, puffed myself up a little bit more and taken advantage of the fact that I was in the office with him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "?"}
{"id": "856783986", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Jerry Stiller", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Comedian And Actor Jerry Stiller", "question_index": 10, "text": "Now, this is the quintessential New York job, right? For people who don't know Nedick's, which I guess many people do. It's a national chain now, isn't it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The man was so direct. You couldn't lie to him. He was looking right at your eye. And first of all, he was very small, and his head just came up over the edge of the desk. And you felt like it was a c"}
{"id": "856783986", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Jerry Stiller", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Comedian And Actor Jerry Stiller", "question_index": 11, "text": "It seems to me you entered a new phase of your career when John Waters cast you as Divine's husband in the movie \"Hairspray.\"", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1993 interview with actor and comedian Jerry Stiller, who died Monday at the age of 92."}
{"id": "856783986", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Jerry Stiller", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Comedian And Actor Jerry Stiller", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had no idea that I would be playing opposite Divine as her husband Wilbur Turnblad with Ricki Lake. But somebody called and said, you want to be in one of the John Waters movies? I had never s"}
{"id": "856783986", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Jerry Stiller", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Comedian And Actor Jerry Stiller", "question_index": 13, "text": "For any of our listeners who don't know Divine, Divine was an approximately 300-pound man who always played women - or usually played women in John Waters' movies. And I'm wondering if playing in John Waters' film changed the way people thought of you. I don't think you'd done too much acting before that. And it was such a fun-spirited movie. And everybody in your family in that film - Ricki Lake and Divine and yourself - were really very...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I said, she's fine. And a few minutes later, we were on the set shooting, and I was a little Wilbur Turnblad."}
{"id": "856783986", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Jerry Stiller", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Comedian And Actor Jerry Stiller", "question_index": 14, "text": "...Very kind of, like, offbeat people, but you just - you fell in love with all the characters.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "856783986", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Jerry Stiller", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Comedian And Actor Jerry Stiller", "question_index": 15, "text": "There was such nice people.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the shocker is that..."}
{"id": "856783986", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Jerry Stiller", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Comedian And Actor Jerry Stiller", "question_index": 16, "text": "Did you like it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And I had not seen the picture at all. I had not seen the movie, so I didn't know whether I was good in it or I was medium in it or whatever I was. So the shocker is to walk out of that place and th"}
{"id": "856783986", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Jerry Stiller", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Comedian And Actor Jerry Stiller", "question_index": 17, "text": "Good.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I loved it."}
{"id": "856783986", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Jerry Stiller", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Comedian And Actor Jerry Stiller", "question_index": 18, "text": "Was it hard for you to break out of the Stiller and Meara image years after you had stopped performing with your wife?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then I went to see it again at the Waverly down on the Village, and that's where the people went nuts. In the lobby, I was besieged. I was there were with Anne, and people came up to me, and they "}
{"id": "856783986", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Jerry Stiller", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Comedian And Actor Jerry Stiller", "question_index": 19, "text": "Now, you've told us before that your father did not want you to become an actor. So when you found out that your son Ben Stiller wanted to go into show business himself, what was your reaction?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we never really stopped. We still do it. And - but at the same time, we had come from, you know, theater backgrounds. But the need to go on my own and Anne to do her thing alone, it really kind "}
{"id": "856783986", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Jerry Stiller", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Comedian And Actor Jerry Stiller", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yeah. Jerry Stiller, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I says, gee, isn't it great? My kid's doing great. Meantime, Amy's working down at the 30th Street Playhouse off-Broadway in the little - some kind of a Little Red Riding Hood thing. And I go down t"}
{"id": "856783986", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Jerry Stiller", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Comedian And Actor Jerry Stiller", "question_index": 21, "text": "I want to play a short scene, and this is a scene with your father Jerry Stiller. And it's - and your father plays Maury Ballstein, head of Ball's Models", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was the late Jerry Stiller speaking with Terry Gross in 1993. Stiller and Meara's kids, Amy and Ben, have gone on to their own successful careers in comedy and acting. Ben Stiller also became a f"}
{"id": "856783986", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Jerry Stiller", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Comedian And Actor Jerry Stiller", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was the late Jerry Stiller speaking with Terry Gross in 1993. Stiller and Meara's kids, Amy and Ben, have gone on to their own successful careers in comedy and acting. Ben Stiller also became a f"}
{"id": "856783986", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Jerry Stiller", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Comedian And Actor Jerry Stiller", "question_index": 23, "text": "And this is a model agency that he helped build with the Zoolander...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. That's - yeah."}
{"id": "856783986", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Jerry Stiller", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Comedian And Actor Jerry Stiller", "question_index": 24, "text": "Male modeling agency, yeah. So at this point in the movie, your character Derek Zoolander wants to take a break from the fashion world. And so here's you with your father Jerry Stiller in a scene from \"Zoolander.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, a male modeling agency - Ball's Models, yeah."}
{"id": "856783986", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Jerry Stiller", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Comedian And Actor Jerry Stiller", "question_index": 25, "text": "It must have given you such pleasure to say, OK, I'm now going to write a role for my father and direct him in it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Maury Ballstein) Yeah. Right. Derek, please. Some male models go left at the end of the runway; others go right. You've got a lot of gifts, but hanging a Louie just isn't one of them."}
{"id": "856783986", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Jerry Stiller", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Comedian And Actor Jerry Stiller", "question_index": 26, "text": "What was it like for you when your father was co-starring on \"Seinfeld\" and everybody was watching the show?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I don't picture him doing that. But that's what was fun, was getting him into those situations. And he - you know, he really goes with it and goes for it. And it was - it's great. I'm really happy. "}
{"id": "856817191", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Lynn Harrell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Cellist Lynn Harrell", "question_index": 0, "text": "Is that as exhilarating to play as it is to listen to?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli in for Terry Gross. We're going to listen to an interview with renowned cellist Lynn Harrell, who died last month at age 76. In Harrell's obituary in The New Yor"}
{"id": "856817191", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Lynn Harrell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Cellist Lynn Harrell", "question_index": 1, "text": "Are you thinking technique? Or are you just thinking what you're feeling when you're playing that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, indeed it is. I think this kind of cold, clammy excitement and quivering intensity is the main thing that I'm feeling when I start to play that. It's almost impossible to control the explosive qua"}
{"id": "856817191", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Lynn Harrell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Cellist Lynn Harrell", "question_index": 2, "text": "You are, I think, one of the few soloist who actually started with an orchestral career. You started your career with the Cleveland Orchestra. Did you choose to start your career in an orchestra so that you'd learn ensemble playing better? You learn to be part of a larger group?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm thinking technique occasionally when it gets very difficult. But mostly, I'm just reacting to the emotional picture of the music."}
{"id": "856817191", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Lynn Harrell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Cellist Lynn Harrell", "question_index": 3, "text": "Your father died, I believe, when you were 16.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. My teacher at that time, Leonard Rose a great American cellist, played in - years in orchestra. And he thought it was a wonderful musical training. Also, I had recently been orphaned. And I neede"}
{"id": "856817191", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Lynn Harrell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Cellist Lynn Harrell", "question_index": 4, "text": "And your mother died in an auto accident three years after that. Was the orchestra like a surrogate family for you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "856817191", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Lynn Harrell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Cellist Lynn Harrell", "question_index": 5, "text": "Your parents were both musicians. And as you had mentioned, they both died when you were a teenager. Most musicians, especially when they're young, I think, really immerse themselves so totally in music and shut out a lot of other parts of life. And I was learning if you went through that even more so because of the tragedies in your own family because you were probably forced to be more of a loner than you might have even chosen to be.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes, yes. I was so much younger than my other colleagues in the orchestra. And in a way, I was very lonely because I couldn't relate to them one on one because they were all as old as my parents. "}
{"id": "856817191", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Lynn Harrell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Cellist Lynn Harrell", "question_index": 6, "text": "Your father was a Metropolitan Opera baritone. Your mother was a violinist. When you decided to start playing music, was there pressure on you to be great and to really shine?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that's definitely true. I. I did do that. And it sometimes causes problems of adjustment for me today because that world of myself, the hotel room, the cello and maybe room service is - can be a "}
{"id": "856817191", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Lynn Harrell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Cellist Lynn Harrell", "question_index": 7, "text": "Because your father recorded, you've been able to go back and hear him sing. As a mature adult, you've been able to use your developed ears now to listen to him. Does he sound different than you remember him sounding when you were young?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, there wasn't. In fact, my parents were so afraid that they would innuendo that kind of pressure that they didn't take any kind of active interest or concern with my music at all. And in school orc"}
{"id": "856817191", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Lynn Harrell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Cellist Lynn Harrell", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not at all. The - it's overpowering to me emotionally, particularly when I am using a recording of my father as a demonstration of something in a master class in my teaching. It's all I can do to "}
{"id": "856817191", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Lynn Harrell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Cellist Lynn Harrell", "question_index": 9, "text": "I want to play an excerpt of your recent recording of the Bach cello suites, and I wondered if learning to play this is a rite of passage for cellists.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the 1987 interview Terry Gross recorded with cellist Lynn Harrell, who died last month at age 76."}
{"id": "856817191", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Lynn Harrell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Cellist Lynn Harrell", "question_index": 10, "text": "Let's give a listen to your performance of the gigue from Bach's \"Cello Suite No. 1 In G Major.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I think one would have to say so. Casals, the great old Spanish master who died just in the mid-'70s - he really was the Paganini of the cello. He was the first one in the turn of the 19th century"}
{"id": "856817191", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Lynn Harrell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Cellist Lynn Harrell", "question_index": 11, "text": "My guest Lynn Harrell performing the gigue from Bach's \"Cello Suite No. 1 In G Major.\" I really have to say it's a beautiful performance. And I think of the cello as having just a very emotionally direct sound, maybe more so than most instruments, and I don't know if that sounds silly or not.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I think one would have to say so. Casals, the great old Spanish master who died just in the mid-'70s - he really was the Paganini of the cello. He was the first one in the turn of the 19th century"}
{"id": "856817191", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Lynn Harrell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Cellist Lynn Harrell", "question_index": 12, "text": "Obviously, you really love cello", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think any of them are any good. I love them all. But..."}
{"id": "856817191", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Lynn Harrell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Cellist Lynn Harrell", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think any of them are any good. I love them all. But..."}
{"id": "856817191", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Lynn Harrell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Cellist Lynn Harrell", "question_index": 14, "text": "What do you feel physically when you play? Does your body vibrate along with the cello?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I really love the cello for those direct qualities of communication that you mentioned."}
{"id": "856817191", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Lynn Harrell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Cellist Lynn Harrell", "question_index": 15, "text": "That's what you were talking about earlier. Now I understand.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A little bit, yes, particularly the lower notes. The - I hold the top of the instrument against my neck in - as a sort of a contact point balanced with my - the other edge - the other side of the cell"}
{"id": "856817191", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Lynn Harrell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Cellist Lynn Harrell", "question_index": 16, "text": "What do you do when you're not getting the sound you want? Every, I think, instrument has its own set of neuroses associated with it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Right."}
{"id": "856817191", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Lynn Harrell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Cellist Lynn Harrell", "question_index": 17, "text": "What do you do when you feel like this isn't working, I need to - I have to make a change?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Right."}
{"id": "856817191", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Lynn Harrell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Cellist Lynn Harrell", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes, I recently got a Stradivari, one of the very great instruments of all time, made in 1673. And there are now times when I think, this instrument's terrible..."}
{"id": "856817191", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Lynn Harrell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Cellist Lynn Harrell", "question_index": 19, "text": "One other thing. There's a small group of really brilliant cellos - cellists performing now. You are among them. And I wonder if you see yourselves as friends or competitors. You're sometimes recording the same parts of the repertoire. The repertoire isn't that vast. So is there this competitive edge to your relationship?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Where was I? Oh, it's very symbiotic, kind of weird relationship that goes on there."}
{"id": "856817191", "date": "2020-05-15", "guest": "Lynn Harrell", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Grammy-Winning Cellist Lynn Harrell", "question_index": 20, "text": "Lynn Harrell, I love your playing, and I thank you very much for being with us today.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", sometimes easy to just think that so-and-so is a wonderful cellist, but I can do this that he can't do, and not to really be truthful with oneself that that artist is able to do certain things that "}
{"id": "860312073", "date": "2020-05-21", "guest": "Emily Blunt", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Screenwriter And Director Lynn Shelton", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. The screenwriter and director Lynn Shelton died unexpectedly Friday at the age of 54 of a rare, previously undiagnosed blood disorder. We're going to listen back to an excerpt of our interview with her. In her New York Times obituary, her independent films were described as, quote, \"serio-comic dramas focused on relationships and family, often with complicated women at their centers,\" unquote. Her film \"Humpday,\" a comedy about two straight men who decide to make a gay porn film and submit it to an annual indie porn festival, won a special grand jury prize at the 2009 Sundance Film Festival. In addition to films, Shelton directed episodes of TV series, including \"Mad Men,\" \"Fresh Off The Boat\" and \"Little Fires Everywhere.\" Her 2019 film \"Sword Of Trust\" starred Marc Maron, who she also directed in his series \"Maron,\" in the TV series \"GLOW\" and his last two comedy specials. Shelton and Maron had become romantic partners in the past year and were sheltering in place, collaborating on a screenplay when she died. I spoke with her in 2012, after the release of her film \"Your Sister's Sister.\" Like \"Humpday,\" \"Your Sister's Sister\" relied on a lot of improvisation from the actors. Mark Duplass, who starred in \"Humpday,\" also starred in \"Your Sister's Sister\" in the role of Jack. The film begins a year after the death of Jack's brother. Jack isn't taking it well, so his good friend Iris, played by Emily Blunt, tells him to go to her father's cabin in the woods and spend some time getting himself together. But he doesn't find the solitude she promised. Instead, he finds Hannah, Iris' beautiful half-sister, played by Rosemarie DeWitt. And then Iris comes to visit, and the relationships get very complicated. In this scene, Iris and Hannah are telling Jack how their father had been involved in multiple romantic relationships over the years.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "860312073", "date": "2020-05-21", "guest": "Emily Blunt", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Screenwriter And Director Lynn Shelton", "question_index": 1, "text": "Lynn Shelton told me that her approach to filmmaking was to get an enormous amount of input from the actors before shooting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Iris) I don't like it. I get bored. I don't like it."}
{"id": "860312073", "date": "2020-05-21", "guest": "Emily Blunt", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Screenwriter And Director Lynn Shelton", "question_index": 2, "text": "Now, here's the thing. It seems to me, it really helps in getting a kind of naturalistic feel. At the same time - and I don't know what I'm talking about here - but it seems to me, like, if you're", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The original actors all participated for eight or nine months in the development process, and I would ask for their input about who these characters were, what was their backstory. By the time we get "}
{"id": "860312073", "date": "2020-05-21", "guest": "Emily Blunt", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Screenwriter And Director Lynn Shelton", "question_index": 3, "text": "- if you're an actor and you have the lines written for you, those words help you embody the character because that character isn't you and that character speaks different from you. And the writer has imagined how that character would speak, and by speaking those words in the way that the writer has imagined it, you become that character. But if you're finding your own words for that character, it means that the character is going to be more like you because you're more likely to play it like yourself with the words that you would speak.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The original actors all participated for eight or nine months in the development process, and I would ask for their input about who these characters were, what was their backstory. By the time we get "}
{"id": "860312073", "date": "2020-05-21", "guest": "Emily Blunt", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Screenwriter And Director Lynn Shelton", "question_index": 4, "text": "So why don't we hear that scene? And this is an excerpt of Lynn Shelton's new film \"Your Sister's Sister.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's true. I'm really looking for the overlap, you know. Where does the character, which is distinct from the actor as a person - but where does the character overlap? Mark and Emily and Rose are very"}
{"id": "860312073", "date": "2020-05-21", "guest": "Emily Blunt", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Screenwriter And Director Lynn Shelton", "question_index": 5, "text": "That was Mark Duplass and Emily Blunt in a scene from \"Your Sister's Sister,\" which was written and directed by my guest Lynn Shelton. Now, your previous film, \"Humpday,\" starts off with a married couple, and they're surprised when the husband's old buddy shows up unannounced at the door after being on the road. And so they were living opposite kind of lives. There's, like, the husband who's settled down and the friend who's been on the road. They go off to this party, the two men, and - where the subject ends up being this, like, independent porn film festival known as the Hump Film Festival. And they decide to make a gay porn film together and star in it, though neither of them is gay. What an odd idea for a movie", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Jack) I'm not pissing. I'm not pissing and moaning. I'm done. I'm done."}
{"id": "860312073", "date": "2020-05-21", "guest": "Emily Blunt", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Screenwriter And Director Lynn Shelton", "question_index": 6, "text": ". How did you come up with that premise?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Jack) I'm not pissing. I'm not pissing and moaning. I'm done. I'm done."}
{"id": "860312073", "date": "2020-05-21", "guest": "Emily Blunt", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Screenwriter And Director Lynn Shelton", "question_index": 7, "text": "So, you know, I've been reading about you, and you were quoted as saying - which may or may not be true - that you were quoted as saying that you would describe yourself as a shy bisexual who has crushes on gay men.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Sometimes the best stories can come out of just the simple premise of putting characters into a situation that's out of their comfort zone. And I came up with this crazy notion of two straight guys "}
{"id": "860312073", "date": "2020-05-21", "guest": "Emily Blunt", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Screenwriter And Director Lynn Shelton", "question_index": 8, "text": "And I'm going to ask you about this because, you know, \"Humpday\" and \"Your Sister's Sister\" involves sexual orientation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Sometimes the best stories can come out of just the simple premise of putting characters into a situation that's out of their comfort zone. And I came up with this crazy notion of two straight guys "}
{"id": "860312073", "date": "2020-05-21", "guest": "Emily Blunt", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Screenwriter And Director Lynn Shelton", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well, Lynn Shelton, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Some people really, truly are straight, you know. There are - there's a spectrum in that there are people who are really at one or the other, you know. And I was - one of the things that was most movi"}
{"id": "860312073", "date": "2020-05-21", "guest": "Emily Blunt", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Screenwriter And Director Lynn Shelton", "question_index": 10, "text": "My interview with Lynn Shelton was recorded in 2012. I highly recommend you listen to the episode of Marc Maron's podcast \"WTF\" from last Monday, in which he opened by speaking through tears about how he and Lynn Shelton had become partners and how, with her, he experienced giving love, being loved and accepting love in a way he'd never experienced before. And then he played his 2015 interview with her, which was the first time they met. We send our condolences to Marc and to Lynn Shelton's family, colleagues and friends.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thanks for having me, Terry. It's such a privilege."}
{"id": "860312073", "date": "2020-05-21", "guest": "Emily Blunt", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Screenwriter And Director Lynn Shelton", "question_index": 11, "text": "If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed - like this week's interviews with musician and actor Janelle Monae or journalist Barton Gellman, whose new book is about reporting on Edward Snowden and secret surveillance programs - check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Thea Challoner, Seth Kelley and Joel Wolfram. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Therese Madden directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thanks for having me, Terry. It's such a privilege."}
{"id": "860830062", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air Remembers Beatles Photographer Astrid Kirchherr", "question_index": 0, "text": "You described the way they looked as being a photographer's dream, your dream. Would you describe how they looked, the first time you saw The Beatles?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I went down the stairs and looked at the stage, I was just amazed how beautiful these boys looked. And being a photographer then, it was a photographer's dream. In fact, it was my dream because I"}
{"id": "860830062", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air Remembers Beatles Photographer Astrid Kirchherr", "question_index": 1, "text": "With their hair slicked back, like a little pompadour?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they all had these - I don't know what you call the hairstyle - you know, like the rockers did in the '50s, like Marlon Brando with a lot of grease. And they had - they were..."}
{"id": "860830062", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air Remembers Beatles Photographer Astrid Kirchherr", "question_index": 2, "text": "Did you need their permission to start taking pictures of them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes, yes, you're right. So - and they wore really mad clothes, sort of - not very clean but unusual. Like, John had a leather jacket on, and Stuart had a real proper suit jacket on. But they were"}
{"id": "860830062", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air Remembers Beatles Photographer Astrid Kirchherr", "question_index": 3, "text": "A fellow artist.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I - through my boyfriend, Klaus, I asked them if they were willing, that I can take their pictures, and they were just jumping up and down with joy. So one morning, because I only take pictures "}
{"id": "860830062", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air Remembers Beatles Photographer Astrid Kirchherr", "question_index": 4, "text": "Now, you describe when you first met The Beatles that their hair was greased back.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. Right. Yeah."}
{"id": "860830062", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air Remembers Beatles Photographer Astrid Kirchherr", "question_index": 5, "text": "How did you change their hair? And why did you change it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "860830062", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air Remembers Beatles Photographer Astrid Kirchherr", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yeah, I never heard it before referred to as the Klaus haircut.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my boyfriend, Klaus, had a big problem because his ears used to stick out. But in any other way, he was the most beautiful boy that the world has seen. So I thought, how can you get this to go, "}
{"id": "860830062", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air Remembers Beatles Photographer Astrid Kirchherr", "question_index": 7, "text": "What other changes did you make or suggest to The Beatles about their look or their clothes, whatever?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "860830062", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air Remembers Beatles Photographer Astrid Kirchherr", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, if John was making fun of Stu's jacket that didn't have lapels, how come he ended up wearing one himself? Like, what changed the attitude from mockery to I want one, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the fact is that Stuart was the same height as I am, and he could wear my clothes. So, immediately, when he moved in with me and my mother, he got hold of all my clothes, like leather pants, lea"}
{"id": "860830062", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air Remembers Beatles Photographer Astrid Kirchherr", "question_index": 9, "text": "It's interesting that Stu Sutcliffe would wear your clothes because most men wouldn't dream - back then, particularly - of wearing their girlfriend's clothes. It would be more OK for a girlfriend to wear her boyfriend's clothes, but not vice versa.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, John was always a little bit sarcastic. So at first, even with the hairstyle, he couldn't stop laughing. But in the end, he just joined in. That was John. That was typical."}
{"id": "860830062", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air Remembers Beatles Photographer Astrid Kirchherr", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, tell us a little bit about what it was like to be a teenager growing up in post-World War Germany.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, Stuart was a very special person. And he was miles ahead of everybody. You know, as far as intelligent and artistic feelings are concerned, he was miles ahead. I learned a lot from him"}
{"id": "860830062", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air Remembers Beatles Photographer Astrid Kirchherr", "question_index": 11, "text": "Did that come between you and the Beatles at all, a sense that your country had recent - your countries had recently been enemies? Did that interfere at all in the relationships, relationship between you as people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was very hard because it is hard to imagine now that there weren't any magazines. You couldn't buy any English authors or anything that came from America, like jeans. It was impossible. So we"}
{"id": "860830062", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air Remembers Beatles Photographer Astrid Kirchherr", "question_index": 12, "text": "So that's why he said it, because he knew the German people wouldn't understand.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not in our relationship. But John used to make funny remarks of it from the stage because most of the youngsters couldn't speak English because we didn't had English in school, you know, in the be"}
{"id": "860830062", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air Remembers Beatles Photographer Astrid Kirchherr", "question_index": 13, "text": "He could say anything.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not in our relationship. But John used to make funny remarks of it from the stage because most of the youngsters couldn't speak English because we didn't had English in school, you know, in the be"}
{"id": "860830062", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air Remembers Beatles Photographer Astrid Kirchherr", "question_index": 14, "text": "You became engaged to Stu Sutcliffe, who, at the time when you met him in 1960, was the bass player in the band. Seems to me you both lived in a very visual world. I mean, he was an artist who learned to play bass so he could be in the Beatles. And you, of course, you know, were a photographer, a very visual person. So even though you didn't speak each other's languages at first - he's English, you're German - it seems like you must have had this visual connection.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's return to Terry's 2008 interview with Astrid Kirchherr, who was famous for photographing the Beatles and for inspiring their famous haircuts. She died last week at the age of "}
{"id": "860830062", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air Remembers Beatles Photographer Astrid Kirchherr", "question_index": 15, "text": "Why did John want him in the band?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. There was a sort of bond between us because - maybe I correct you there. Stuart just played in the band because John persuaded him to be in the band. And the first painting Stuart sold, John pers"}
{"id": "860830062", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air Remembers Beatles Photographer Astrid Kirchherr", "question_index": 16, "text": "Why did John want him in the band so much knowing that he didn't know how to play?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because..."}
{"id": "860830062", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air Remembers Beatles Photographer Astrid Kirchherr", "question_index": 17, "text": "So you were engaged. What kind of life had you envisioned for yourselves together?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, because John always said when - Paul was moaning about, you know, how Stuart didn't practice and all that. But John always said, it doesn't matter. He looks good. He is rock 'n' roll."}
{"id": "860830062", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air Remembers Beatles Photographer Astrid Kirchherr", "question_index": 18, "text": "He died. Stu Sutcliffe died of a brain hemorrhage after a series of excruciating headaches.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when you're young, you just in love. And every day is so new and so fresh and so beautiful. You just don't think of the future. But Stuart was very mature. And he thought he could become a teach"}
{"id": "860830062", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air Remembers Beatles Photographer Astrid Kirchherr", "question_index": 19, "text": "When he was getting those headaches, did you think and did he think that they were a symptom of something very serious?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "860830062", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air Remembers Beatles Photographer Astrid Kirchherr", "question_index": 20, "text": "So I think what happened is, one day, he collapsed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not at all. When you're so young, you don't - death doesn't occur to you at all. It is not - it's so far away. I mean, a 21-year-old boy, you never think that there's something very drastically ha"}
{"id": "860830062", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air Remembers Beatles Photographer Astrid Kirchherr", "question_index": 21, "text": "You were with him in the ambulance when he died?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He collapsed a couple of times in school. And they brought him home. And the doctor came and got X-rays. And so - and then it went better for a short while. And then, one day, my mother phoned m"}
{"id": "860830062", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air Remembers Beatles Photographer Astrid Kirchherr", "question_index": 22, "text": "You know, you said that death doesn't occur to you when you're young. But you had to deal with it. You must have been quite shocked.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes."}
{"id": "860830062", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air Remembers Beatles Photographer Astrid Kirchherr", "question_index": 23, "text": "How did they help you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course I was. But, you know, all my friends helped me an awful lot. And first of all, John did, you know, and George, the two of them."}
{"id": "860830062", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air Remembers Beatles Photographer Astrid Kirchherr", "question_index": 24, "text": "So you made the decision to go on...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, John - you know, John had a very funny way of telling the people he loved what was going on. And one day, he just said, you have got to decide if you want to live or die. There is no other quest"}
{"id": "860830062", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air Remembers Beatles Photographer Astrid Kirchherr", "question_index": 25, "text": "...And continued with your work as a photographer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "860830062", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air Remembers Beatles Photographer Astrid Kirchherr", "question_index": 26, "text": "The photos in your new book, \"Yesterday: The Beatles Once Upon A Time,\" are from 1964, when they were shooting \"A Hard Day's Night.\" How did you end up with them when they were shooting that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes."}
{"id": "860830062", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air Remembers Beatles Photographer Astrid Kirchherr", "question_index": 27, "text": "Are you still taking photographs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the magazine stand in Hamburg - maybe you know the magazine - the chief photographer there was a friend of a friend of mine. And so he knew that I was very close to the Beatles. And he asked me "}
{"id": "860830062", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air Remembers Beatles Photographer Astrid Kirchherr", "question_index": 28, "text": "Why not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "860830062", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air Remembers Beatles Photographer Astrid Kirchherr", "question_index": 29, "text": "What did you do instead?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, because, you know, when all these Beatle thing was going on, nobody was interested in my other work, no one at all. They just said, yeah. Great, great. Where are the Beatles pictures? And so I was"}
{"id": "860830062", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air Remembers Beatles Photographer Astrid Kirchherr", "question_index": 30, "text": "I want to thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was always an assistant to a photographer for another 20 or 30 years. And then I started interior design. And I just did things which I liked to do, you know, which had at least fun."}
{"id": "860923756", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Fred Willard", "title": "Remembering Fred Willard, Emmy-Winning Comedy Actor And Improviser", "question_index": 0, "text": "Would you describe your character in \"Waiting For Guffman?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Corky) Good."}
{"id": "860923756", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Fred Willard", "title": "Remembering Fred Willard, Emmy-Winning Comedy Actor And Improviser", "question_index": 1, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think I'm a guy who has no self-realization. He doesn't realize how overbearing he is. I'm married to Catherine O'Hara. We are travel agents in the small town of Blaine. We're very good travel"}
{"id": "860923756", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Fred Willard", "title": "Remembering Fred Willard, Emmy-Winning Comedy Actor And Improviser", "question_index": 2, "text": "It strikes me, you've really made a career out of playing really square people.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I say that in a nutshell is our - my character, and I don't realize how overbearing I am. And I enjoy doing it because I guess there's also a little bit of that in me. I think if I were to just dr"}
{"id": "860923756", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Fred Willard", "title": "Remembering Fred Willard, Emmy-Winning Comedy Actor And Improviser", "question_index": 3, "text": "Why don't we actually hear the scene from \"Spinal Tap?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And it upset me very much, and I thought, gee, that's what people are thinking of me."}
{"id": "860923756", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Fred Willard", "title": "Remembering Fred Willard, Emmy-Winning Comedy Actor And Improviser", "question_index": 4, "text": "I think one of the places where you perfected this persona of the square guy who really thinks he's happening and talented was on \"Fernwood 2 Night,\" when you were...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". These haircuts wouldn't pass military muster, believe me. Although I shouldn't talk; my hair's getting a little shaggy, too. Better not get too close to you; they'll think I'm part of the band. I'm "}
{"id": "860923756", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Fred Willard", "title": "Remembering Fred Willard, Emmy-Winning Comedy Actor And Improviser", "question_index": 5, "text": "...The sidekick for Martin Mull. And \"Fernwood 2 Night\" was this, you know, parody of late-night talk entertainment shows.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh."}
{"id": "860923756", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Fred Willard", "title": "Remembering Fred Willard, Emmy-Winning Comedy Actor And Improviser", "question_index": 6, "text": "Since you have made such a career on playing square...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. It was an improviser's dream because they gave me this character. I was supposed to have been the host, the star of this small town, Fernwood. You know, the - I played Cowboy Bill, and I p"}
{"id": "860923756", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Fred Willard", "title": "Remembering Fred Willard, Emmy-Winning Comedy Actor And Improviser", "question_index": 7, "text": "...Can you give us some tips on how to be convincingly square?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "860923756", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Fred Willard", "title": "Remembering Fred Willard, Emmy-Winning Comedy Actor And Improviser", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think you have to keep your eye on one object - that is, let's get down to business. You can be amused at what's going about you in a very offhand - that could be one of the tangents, yes. And if yo"}
{"id": "860923756", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Fred Willard", "title": "Remembering Fred Willard, Emmy-Winning Comedy Actor And Improviser", "question_index": 9, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You can't ever - you actually have no sense of humor, but the people who have the least sense of humor are usually the ones who are the first to say, I enjoy a good laugh as much as the next man. And,"}
{"id": "860923756", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Fred Willard", "title": "Remembering Fred Willard, Emmy-Winning Comedy Actor And Improviser", "question_index": 10, "text": "Oh, that's good. Thank you very much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "and got coffee with them. So I said, if I'm coming in at 10:30, I might as well walk in at 11. Here's a hint for people who are working in an office and have one foot in the office and one foot out - "}
{"id": "860923756", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Fred Willard", "title": "Remembering Fred Willard, Emmy-Winning Comedy Actor And Improviser", "question_index": 11, "text": "So how do you wear your hair when you're not on camera?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "860923756", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Fred Willard", "title": "Remembering Fred Willard, Emmy-Winning Comedy Actor And Improviser", "question_index": 12, "text": "Oh, I ask that to all my guests", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that is the strangest question I've ever been asked. I'll have to remember that."}
{"id": "860923756", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Fred Willard", "title": "Remembering Fred Willard, Emmy-Winning Comedy Actor And Improviser", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that is the strangest question I've ever been asked. I'll have to remember that."}
{"id": "860923756", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Fred Willard", "title": "Remembering Fred Willard, Emmy-Winning Comedy Actor And Improviser", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did like my hairdo in \"Waiting For Guffman,\" where I was playing what I thought would be Curly from \"Oklahoma,\" in curls over my forehand. And I looked at that, and I said, my gosh, I was trying to "}
{"id": "860923756", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Fred Willard", "title": "Remembering Fred Willard, Emmy-Winning Comedy Actor And Improviser", "question_index": 15, "text": "So I've got one this question for you. How come I don't see you in more things?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a style I ought to adopt."}
{"id": "860923756", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Fred Willard", "title": "Remembering Fred Willard, Emmy-Winning Comedy Actor And Improviser", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- I'll give you the phone number of my agent, who calls me after every job and says, how'd you get that? You know, I don't know."}
{"id": "860923756", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Fred Willard", "title": "Remembering Fred Willard, Emmy-Winning Comedy Actor And Improviser", "question_index": 17, "text": "Is Willard your real last name?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have - last year and this year, I hit, really, a streak of gold. I was on \"Murphy Brown.\" I went to \"Family Matters.\" I went to \"Friends.\" I went to \"Roseanne.\" I mean, I went, like, eight weeks in "}
{"id": "860923756", "date": "2020-05-22", "guest": "Fred Willard", "title": "Remembering Fred Willard, Emmy-Winning Comedy Actor And Improviser", "question_index": 18, "text": "Well, Fred Willard, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Yes, it is. Fred Willard. Yes, that's it. I'm stuck with that. It's not the most glamorous name, but it's mine, yes."}
{"id": "864837081", "date": "2020-05-29", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 0, "text": "That's \"Heart Of America\" from Margo Price's new album \"All American Made.\" Margo Price, welcome to FRESH AIR. Thank you so much for coming to our show and for bringing your guitar with you. I really appreciate that. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Some time back in '86, when big banks took the throne, they asked that every local farmer try to dry his own corn. But the men in suits had a bigger plan than to let it be our own. When the "}
{"id": "864837081", "date": "2020-05-29", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 1, "text": "My pleasure. When you started writing songs, did you think you'd be writing about anything as personal, as autobiographical as losing the family farm?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, thank you for having me."}
{"id": "864837081", "date": "2020-05-29", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 2, "text": "You were - according to your songs, you were 2 when your family lost the farm. So you probably have, like, no memory of actually living on the farm. Can I ask what the circumstances were that led to your family losing the farm?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I think from the time that I was really young, I was always trying to, you know, express what was going on in my life and inside me. And a lot of times that came out through song. I feel lik"}
{"id": "864837081", "date": "2020-05-29", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 3, "text": "So on your first album, there's a song called \"Hands Of Time,\" which is about, you know, leaving your home and hitting the road and, you know, launching a music career. It seems very connected to the first song that we heard. Can you play - can you perform some of that for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I was about 2 or 3, and I do have a couple kind of vague memories of my grandparents packing up all their things in their home and getting rid of their dogs that they loved so much and all their"}
{"id": "864837081", "date": "2020-05-29", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 4, "text": "So the song that you just did, \"Hands Of Time,\" refers to your father after the farm was taken away, working a job at the prison. And so - is that the job that he took?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", it was - felt a little strange."}
{"id": "864837081", "date": "2020-05-29", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 5, "text": "You know, I'm wondering there so much - like, in America, there's so much emphasis on, like, the heartland and the family farmer. And there's a whole set of kind of, like, stereotypes that go with that of what we're talking about when we talk about the heartland and the family farm. Do you feel like you fit into any of those stereotypes? Do you know what I'm saying? Because you actually lived that experience.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it was. I think it's a hard job for anyone who has it, you know? Nobody wants to be in a - working in a prison. But he did what he had to do to put food on the table. And him and my mom worked v"}
{"id": "864837081", "date": "2020-05-29", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 6, "text": "When you started singing and writing songs, why was it country music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Growing up in middle America, I always kind of wished that I was from somewhere else that was more romantic. It just kind of felt like there just wasn't much going on. It was so flat, the landsc"}
{"id": "864837081", "date": "2020-05-29", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 7, "text": "And you went to Nashville, where you still live. And your great-uncle is a songwriter. And I don't know that I know any of his songs, but he is a songwriter who went to Nashville and kind of made his way there. Did that open up any doors for you, at least a door in your mind thinking someone from my family did this, so maybe I can do it, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I always loved the stories and, you know, being able to get out an entire plot in just three minutes. And I think it's just the way that I sang, also, because I was drawn to so many different types of"}
{"id": "864837081", "date": "2020-05-29", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 8, "text": "I'm going to ask you to play a song from your new album. And this is called \"All American Made.\" It's the title song. Would you introduce it for us and play a little bit of it?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. LEt's return to Terry's 2017 interview with Margo Price, the country singer and songwriter who currently is sheltering at home with her family in Nashville."}
{"id": "864837081", "date": "2020-05-29", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 9, "text": "How has the meaning of the song changed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So yeah, this song my husband and I co-wrote. And it's been around for a minute. You know, it's funny how songs kind of change their meaning as the world seems to change them for you."}
{"id": "864837081", "date": "2020-05-29", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 10, "text": "This song has a lot of verses. Do you want to choose a couple of your favorite and play them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think there's just more weight in it than at the time that I wrote it. And, you know, we wrote it during the Obama years. And I feel like I've always been one to question the people in charge. I enj"}
{"id": "864837081", "date": "2020-05-29", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 11, "text": "That was Margo Price performing for us the title track of her new album, \"All American Made.\" Tom Petty slips in there", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Starting after the lead, about halfway through the song is where my favorite one starts. (Singing) 1987, and I didn't know it then. Reagan was selling weapons to the leaders of Iran. But it won'"}
{"id": "864837081", "date": "2020-05-29", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 12, "text": ". This was when he was still alive that you wrote the song. Why are you asking him a question?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Starting after the lead, about halfway through the song is where my favorite one starts. (Singing) 1987, and I didn't know it then. Reagan was selling weapons to the leaders of Iran. But it won'"}
{"id": "864837081", "date": "2020-05-29", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 13, "text": "Yeah. Yeah. What was the first music you sang? Was it country music? Did you sing in church, in school musicals?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, because the album came out on his birthday, you know, what would have been his birthday. That was just a really hard time, I think, for people on both sides of the battle right now. Ever"}
{"id": "864837081", "date": "2020-05-29", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 14, "text": "We're recording this in the afternoon, but I think you sound great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "864837081", "date": "2020-05-29", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 15, "text": "Share with us something that you learned from your voice teacher that you otherwise might never have known.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "864837081", "date": "2020-05-29", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 16, "text": "So you write a lot of songs with your husband, Jeremy Ivey, who's also a musician, who's featured on your album playing bass, guitar, harmonica. How did you start writing songs together? Like, which came first, having a relationship or writing songs?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli in for Terry Gross. We're listening back to an interview Terry recorded in 2017 with country singer and songwriter Margo Price. At the moment, she's sheltering a"}
{"id": "864837081", "date": "2020-05-29", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 17, "text": "So when you're writing songs with your husband, how is the process different from when you're writing a song by yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we met through music. We met at a Belmont College party, where neither of us were going to school. We were just hanging out with all these hip musicians, and I had wanted to go there but couldn'"}
{"id": "864837081", "date": "2020-05-29", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 18, "text": "One of the songs that you co-wrote with your husband that's on the new album, \"All American Made,\" is called \"Learning To Lose,\" and that's a duet with you and Willie Nelson. So you were lucky enough to have him sing with you on the album. So of all the songs you could've chosen to say, sing this one with me, why was it that song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, a lot of times, we'll bring ideas to each other that we can't finish, or other times, we will just sit down and start writing a song together from the get-go. It's always different. Bu"}
{"id": "864837081", "date": "2020-05-29", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 19, "text": "Well, why don't we hear that song with you and Willie Nelson? This is \"Learning To Lose.\" And it's from my guest Margo Price's new album, \"All American Made.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when we were writing that song, we were listening to a lot of Willie Nelson records. And you know how it is when you get inspired by an artist and you kind of go through long phases of listening"}
{"id": "864837081", "date": "2020-05-29", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 20, "text": "That's Margo Price and Willie Nelson dueting on a song she co-wrote with her husband Jeremy Ivey. The song is called \"Learning To Lose,\" and it's from her new album, \"All American Made.\" So, you know, in terms of, like, moving to Nashville to, like, launch your performing career there, one of the kind of central stories about your early career was how you and your husband sold the car and pawned your wedding ring so that you'd have enough money to pay for the studio time to make your first album.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Won't you tell me how long must I pay off these dues? Won't you tell me, is winning learning to lose? You said it, oh, but say that it's not true. Is winning really learning to lose?"}
{"id": "864837081", "date": "2020-05-29", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 21, "text": "And your ring, too, you pawned that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he came home, and then we booked the studio time the very next day."}
{"id": "864837081", "date": "2020-05-29", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 22, "text": "And you have it now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. We went - I went to about three different pawn shops. And none of them wanted to give me very much because there was a crack in it. And it's missing one of the little diamonds on the side. But t"}
{"id": "864837081", "date": "2020-05-29", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 23, "text": "So you've said that your parents were afraid that you'd - they weren't sure how it would finally work out. So it's working out really good, but they didn't know that at the time. You have a song called \"Weekender,\" which is about spending the weekend in the county jail. Did that happen to you?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's return to Terry's 2017 interview with Margo Price, the country singer and songwriter."}
{"id": "864837081", "date": "2020-05-29", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 24, "text": "Were you injured in the accident?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It did. Yeah, that was one of the lowest points. I - you know, I feel like I'd been running wild for quite some time, and it was really only a matter of time before it was all going to catch up with m"}
{"id": "864837081", "date": "2020-05-29", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 25, "text": "Can you do, like, a verse of \"Weekender\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I wasn't. Yeah, I was wearing my seat belt, and, you know, it was late at night. Nobody else was around. But it was really scary for my husband because they called him, and he thought that I had d"}
{"id": "864837081", "date": "2020-05-29", "guest": "Margo Price", "title": "Margo Price Sings About The Heartache And Beauty Of Small-Town America", "question_index": 26, "text": "Aw (ph), thanks for singing that. That song, \"Weekender,\" is on Margo Price's first album, which is called \"Midwest Farmer's Daughter.\" Margo Price, thank you so much, and thank you for being so generous and singing and playing for us. It was really just wonderful. Thank you very much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah. (Playing guitar). Let's see. (Playing guitar, singing). Well, I went down to the county jail, turned myself in, spending all my weekends here, far from my good-timing friends. Things went "}
{"id": "864935788", "date": "2020-05-29", "guest": "Larry Kramer", "title": "Remembering Pioneering AIDS Activist Larry Kramer", "question_index": 0, "text": "Well, I wonder if knowing some of the doctors and researchers better than you used to and having them become more human, more likable to you, if that's given you any second thoughts about some of the tactics of ACT UP, the group that you co-founded.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He invited us inside. And when you get to know a person, that makes hate harder. He's a genuinely likable person, and I think we grew genuinely fond of each other. So it's kind of hard to call a man t"}
{"id": "864935788", "date": "2020-05-29", "guest": "Larry Kramer", "title": "Remembering Pioneering AIDS Activist Larry Kramer", "question_index": 1, "text": "You've been diagnosed with HIV. Well, you were first diagnosed with that in 1988. Have you had any symptoms, or is it just testing positive?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have to say no. I don't think that I - I will defend the tactics of ACT UP, and very strenuously. I think that without those tactics, we wouldn't have been invited inside in the first place. He woul"}
{"id": "864935788", "date": "2020-05-29", "guest": "Larry Kramer", "title": "Remembering Pioneering AIDS Activist Larry Kramer", "question_index": 2, "text": "How has having HIV affected your sense of priorities as an activist and your sense of what you as an individual should be devoting your time to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I've not had any opportunistic infections. There have been, you know, certain things that have - that people with this condition habitually experience, but nothing of any earth-shattering import"}
{"id": "864935788", "date": "2020-05-29", "guest": "Larry Kramer", "title": "Remembering Pioneering AIDS Activist Larry Kramer", "question_index": 3, "text": "Larry, do you remember how you first heard about AIDS, the first signs of it that you saw or read about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I would rather answer that by saying it's made me very - life very precious, et cetera, et cetera. And I want to finish my life's work and - which is to write certain things about it. But it has"}
{"id": "864935788", "date": "2020-05-29", "guest": "Larry Kramer", "title": "Remembering Pioneering AIDS Activist Larry Kramer", "question_index": 4, "text": "You feel like you've adjusted to death, and that's probably not a good thing to adjust to.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. There were, I guess, several incidents. The first official real quaking in my stomach was in July of 1981 when the first article appeared in the back pages of The New York Times announcing th"}
{"id": "864935788", "date": "2020-05-29", "guest": "Larry Kramer", "title": "Remembering Pioneering AIDS Activist Larry Kramer", "question_index": 5, "text": "Have you counted the number of friends that you've lost, or did you just stop counting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It certainly isn't. It certainly isn't."}
{"id": "864935788", "date": "2020-05-29", "guest": "Larry Kramer", "title": "Remembering Pioneering AIDS Activist Larry Kramer", "question_index": 6, "text": "Do you know what you'll be writing next? Is there a project you're working on now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I stopped counting. I used to keep a little book. And I forgot even what year it was when it reached 500. And I just stopped at 500. But you have to remember that having co-founded GMHC and having fou"}
{"id": "864935788", "date": "2020-05-29", "guest": "Larry Kramer", "title": "Remembering Pioneering AIDS Activist Larry Kramer", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have so many projects that I don't know that I have time for them all. But I've been working for - I guess for about 10 years on a very, very, very long novel called \"The American People,\" which I w"}
{"id": "864935788", "date": "2020-05-29", "guest": "Larry Kramer", "title": "Remembering Pioneering AIDS Activist Larry Kramer", "question_index": 8, "text": "Larry, I wish you good luck with your writing, and I wish you good health. And good luck with your new play.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I feel it's almost my responsibility to write about AIDS stuff and about what it's been like to be gay in this time in history. And fortunately I'm still healthy, and I feel like I've been given this "}
{"id": "866853307", "date": "2020-06-01", "guest": "Eric Adams", "title": "Brooklyn Borough President On Fighting Police Brutality From The Inside", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Like so many Americans and people around the world, I was horrified watching the video of the police officer - now charged with manslaughter and third-degree murder - who had his knee on George Floyd's neck for over eight minutes, keeping the weight on Floyd's neck even after he died. My heart was broken. It was broken again over the weekend as I watched peaceful protests against the death of Floyd and other black men and women who died at the hands of police become violent confrontations in cities around America, including Philadelphia, where I live, and Brooklyn, where I grew up. Philadelphia has been preparing to allow businesses that were closed due to the pandemic to reopen this Friday. Now in the heart of our business and shopping district that also has medical offices, food markets, pharmacies and many apartments, stores have had their windows broken, been looted, some set on fire and destroyed. Just a few days ago, the streets were pretty empty, with people practicing social distancing. By the weekend, in Philly and cities around the country, thousands of people were in the streets, which public health officials fear could lead to a surge in cases of COVID-19. We asked Eric Adams to join us because he has insights about this moment from several perspectives. When he was 15, he was arrested and beaten by police. He later became a police officer with the intent of helping to reform the police. In 1995, he co-founded the group 100 Blacks in Law Enforcement Who Care to work from within the NYPD against police brutality and racial profiling. After serving on the force for 22 years, retiring as a captain, he served in the New York State Senate for seven years. He was elected Brooklyn borough president in 2013 and is now serving his second term as Brooklyn's CEO. Brooklyn has been a pandemic hot spot and the location of large protests, some of which turned violent. Eric Adams, welcome back to FRESH AIR. We're recording this late Sunday afternoon. We don't know what will happen Sunday night. What are your concerns about the actions of the police and the protesters in Brooklyn?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "866853307", "date": "2020-06-01", "guest": "Eric Adams", "title": "Brooklyn Borough President On Fighting Police Brutality From The Inside", "question_index": 1, "text": "Who do you think those well-trained people are and who do you think trained them? What do you know about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Many levels, Terry. I have mixed emotions. No. 1, I'm extremely excited and pleased to see our young people taking to the streets. Historically, the winds of change, they have always been blown by you"}
{"id": "866853307", "date": "2020-06-01", "guest": "Eric Adams", "title": "Brooklyn Borough President On Fighting Police Brutality From The Inside", "question_index": 2, "text": "What's your reaction, as a former police officer, to seeing police precincts in Brooklyn under attack? I mean, protesters tried to breach and enter a police precinct in Brooklyn, and outside Brooklyn's 88th Precinct, there was another large clash with crowds. What's your reaction to that? Like, how do you think police should be handling it when their precincts come under attack?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a combination. Some of them, believe it or not - this strange marriage has been created between right-wing militias who have infiltrated the bodies of some of these movements across our country a"}
{"id": "866853307", "date": "2020-06-01", "guest": "Eric Adams", "title": "Brooklyn Borough President On Fighting Police Brutality From The Inside", "question_index": 3, "text": "Would you like to see people from Black Lives Matter speaking out against the violence and distancing themselves from it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that's so important because look at the last series of marches that really put in place serious changes across the country. When you looked at those marches, you did not see people go into the 88t"}
{"id": "866853307", "date": "2020-06-01", "guest": "Eric Adams", "title": "Brooklyn Borough President On Fighting Police Brutality From The Inside", "question_index": 4, "text": "And let's get back to the police. I know - like, because we talked about this once before on the show - when you were a police officer, there were times when, during the day, you would be joining protesters against police abuse, and then in the evening, you'd be policing the protesters in your job as a police officer. And people would make assumptions about you as an officer, assumptions that were often not true, about where your sympathies lay. So let's talk about policing right now. I suspect that a lot of police officers sympathize with the protesters, yet at the same time, cannot allow violence in their cities. They can't allow the destruction of property, although all of that has happened anyways. Talk a little bit from your perspective as a former police officer what you think the police are up against and the kind of difficult decisions they have to make.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I would. And that is part of the conversation that I've had with some of the leaders. And I understand their concerns because they don't want to give a pathway. Sometimes when you speak out again"}
{"id": "866853307", "date": "2020-06-01", "guest": "Eric Adams", "title": "Brooklyn Borough President On Fighting Police Brutality From The Inside", "question_index": 5, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Eric Adams. He's the borough president of Brooklyn. He's a former New York City police officer who co-founded 100 Blacks in Law Enforcement Who Care, which was a police reform group against racial profiling and police assaults. He was also assaulted by the police when he was 15. We'll be right back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a great question because - and you're right. The - remember; we recruit police officers from a society that is filled with healthy and toxic individuals. And when you come into the law enforcem"}
{"id": "866853307", "date": "2020-06-01", "guest": "Eric Adams", "title": "Brooklyn Borough President On Fighting Police Brutality From The Inside", "question_index": 6, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. If you're just joining us, my guest is Eric Adams, and we're talking about the protests over the weekend. At age 15, he was beaten by police. And in the hope of helping reform the policing of black people and neighborhoods, he joined the New York City police and, after 22 years, retired as a captain. He became a state senator in New York and is now serving his second term as Brooklyn Borough president, the CEO of Brooklyn. Brooklyn has been a site of large protests against the death of George Floyd in police hands. It's also been a hot spot in the pandemic. Were you ever, as a police officer, patrolling a protest that turned violent? And if so, what was that like for you? What were some of the most complicated actions and decisions you had to make?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a great question because - and you're right. The - remember; we recruit police officers from a society that is filled with healthy and toxic individuals. And when you come into the law enforcem"}
{"id": "866853307", "date": "2020-06-01", "guest": "Eric Adams", "title": "Brooklyn Borough President On Fighting Police Brutality From The Inside", "question_index": 7, "text": "We've all seen in times during the protests over the weekend when protesters were intentionally provoking the police - throwing things at them, setting their cars on fire. From your perspective as a former police officer who opposes police brutality, who opposes racial profiling, who opposes these murders of black people, what is the response a police officer should have when they are intentionally being violently provoked?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Extremely complicated, extremely frightening. Even when you put on a blue uniform, you do not take away the fright and flight hard-wiring inside you. And the goal is I go in with the mindset - or whoe"}
{"id": "866853307", "date": "2020-06-01", "guest": "Eric Adams", "title": "Brooklyn Borough President On Fighting Police Brutality From The Inside", "question_index": 8, "text": "Let's talk about what happened to you when you were 15 and that - how that affected your view of the police. I mean, you had been charged with trespassing. Just give us a brief sense of what the charge was.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's so important. And my history - this is my life's work, dealing with police abuse, from being arrested as a young man, being told by civil rights leaders to go into the police department. I'm comm"}
{"id": "866853307", "date": "2020-06-01", "guest": "Eric Adams", "title": "Brooklyn Borough President On Fighting Police Brutality From The Inside", "question_index": 9, "text": "So you're in a position of understanding the pain that a lot of black people feel when they think about the police. Were police ever a good force in your life before you became an officer? Did they ever help you or protect you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was a 15-year-old child. I grew up - part of my childhood was in Bayside High School, when I left Brooklyn before returning. And my brother and I, we were arrested for criminal trespassing. Once the"}
{"id": "866853307", "date": "2020-06-01", "guest": "Eric Adams", "title": "Brooklyn Borough President On Fighting Police Brutality From The Inside", "question_index": 10, "text": "My guest is Eric Adams, a former NYPD police captain. In 1995, he co-founded the group 100 Blacks in Law Enforcement Who Care to work from within the NYPD against police brutality and racial profiling. He now serves as Brooklyn bureau president. We'll talk more after a break. And then later, Maureen Corrigan will review a new novel by Brit Bennett, whose first novel, the bestseller \"The Mothers,\" was optioned by Kerry Washington. And David Bianculli will review three TV shows, one from the new streaming service HBO Max. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "you know, who has these relationships with cops? And it was difficult because there was nothing, no point of reference of the beauty of having a good relationship with your law enforcement in your com"}
{"id": "866853307", "date": "2020-06-01", "guest": "Eric Adams", "title": "Brooklyn Borough President On Fighting Police Brutality From The Inside", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Eric Adams. At age 15, he was beaten by police. In the hope of helping reform the policing of black neighborhoods, he joined the New York City Police and, after 22 years, retired as a captain. He became a state senator and is now serving his second term as Brooklyn borough president, the CEO of Brooklyn. Brooklyn has been the site of large protests against the death of George Floyd in police hands. Brooklyn is also a hotspot for the pandemic. You know, I really do think there's a lot of police officers around the country who are really angry and really furious about what happened to George Floyd. And they're probably suffering too because now they're out on the streets in the middle of a pandemic fighting with people that they don't want to be in confrontation with. What do you think police can do or should do to show their anger at police who behave badly or brutally, or who are, you know, responsible for the deaths of people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "you know, who has these relationships with cops? And it was difficult because there was nothing, no point of reference of the beauty of having a good relationship with your law enforcement in your com"}
{"id": "866853307", "date": "2020-06-01", "guest": "Eric Adams", "title": "Brooklyn Borough President On Fighting Police Brutality From The Inside", "question_index": 12, "text": "I know a lot of people would agree with you that there's been, you know, progress made in how fast these actions were taken. But that doesn't seem to have had any effect on the protests.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We have to really change the culture of policing. We have police here in the city that put up a white power finger sign. And all the other police officers started cheering and laughing with them. When"}
{"id": "866853307", "date": "2020-06-01", "guest": "Eric Adams", "title": "Brooklyn Borough President On Fighting Police Brutality From The Inside", "question_index": 13, "text": "Right now, given how hot the situation is, do you want to see people continuing to hit the streets?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it shouldn't. We have to keep the pressure on. We have a long way to go. And I am - as I stated, I'm excited about these protests because it is as though I've come full circle. I've marched in the"}
{"id": "866853307", "date": "2020-06-01", "guest": "Eric Adams", "title": "Brooklyn Borough President On Fighting Police Brutality From The Inside", "question_index": 14, "text": "I'm obviously really worried about that, too. And, you know, Brooklyn has been a pandemic hotspot. And, you know, in Philly, Philly's preparing to reopen on Friday. Philly was preparing to go yellow. And now, like, who knows what the consequences for the pandemic will be from all the protests over the weekend? And I'm sure that's true for many cities. Like, we know what happened in New Orleans after Mardi Gras. And this was not a celebratory parade. These were protests. But it's still, in terms of the virus, it can have the same impact of thousands of people in the streets, shoulder-to-shoulder. Many of them were wearing masks. But at that close proximity, you know, who knows? How much of a setback do you fear this will be for Brooklyn, where you are the Brooklyn borough president?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a very delicate balance. I'm really afraid about the COVID-19. As you know, I spent the last 50-plus days sleeping in my office from the time that COVID hit the shores here in New York City. And "}
{"id": "866853307", "date": "2020-06-01", "guest": "Eric Adams", "title": "Brooklyn Borough President On Fighting Police Brutality From The Inside", "question_index": 15, "text": "Were you glad over the weekend that you are no longer a police officer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's going to be a significant setback. But what I've learned - I recall after 9/11. And when the Trade Center was attacked and the buildings collapsed, I remember going out to Brownsville, a "}
{"id": "866853307", "date": "2020-06-01", "guest": "Eric Adams", "title": "Brooklyn Borough President On Fighting Police Brutality From The Inside", "question_index": 16, "text": "Eric Adams, thank you so much for talking with us. And I hope Brooklyn comes through all of this OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not at all. I looked forward to being in the eye of the storm. I looked forward to those difficult days when I had to talk someone down from showing a level of anger and understanding what they fe"}
{"id": "866853307", "date": "2020-06-01", "guest": "Eric Adams", "title": "Brooklyn Borough President On Fighting Police Brutality From The Inside", "question_index": 17, "text": "Eric Adams is the Brooklyn borough president and a former NYPD police captain. He co-founded the group 100 Blacks in Law Enforcement Who Care. After we take a short break, Maureen Corrigan will review a new novel by Brit Bennett, whose first novel was the bestseller \"The Mothers.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. Be well."}
{"id": "870459750", "date": "2020-06-05", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "Historian Eric Foner On The 'Unresolved Legacy Of Reconstruction'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Reconstruction has such a bad image in some history books. It's the period of scalawags and carpetbaggers. How does your view of Reconstruction compare with the negative view that a lot of people were brought up on in their history books and in their history classes?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, editor of the website TV Worth Watching, sitting in for Terry Gross. Protests across the nation demanding justice and policing reforms after the death of George"}
{"id": "870459750", "date": "2020-06-05", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "Historian Eric Foner On The 'Unresolved Legacy Of Reconstruction'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Could we just clarify - what years are we talking about when we talk about Reconstruction?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Terry, I learned that myself when I was in high school in my history book, that this was - my teacher told me - this was back in the 1950s - that Reconstruction was the lowest point in all of Am"}
{"id": "870459750", "date": "2020-06-05", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "Historian Eric Foner On The 'Unresolved Legacy Of Reconstruction'", "question_index": 2, "text": "Well, let's talk about part of the process that began during the Civil War. And I'm thinking of the 40 acres and a mule - what we've come to think of as 40 acres and a mule, which was part of a General Sherman's Special Field Order No. 15. Would you put this in context for us? What led to this proclamation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Reconstruction is usually dated as 1865, when the Civil War ends, to 1877, when the last federal troops are removed from the South or, strictly speaking, from political participation in the South. But"}
{"id": "870459750", "date": "2020-06-05", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "Historian Eric Foner On The 'Unresolved Legacy Of Reconstruction'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Doesn't hurt.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. You know, 40 acres and a mule is one of the few things that most people have heard of from the Reconstruction period, maybe because it's the name of Spike Lee's film company or something like t"}
{"id": "870459750", "date": "2020-06-05", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "Historian Eric Foner On The 'Unresolved Legacy Of Reconstruction'", "question_index": 4, "text": "So there were freed slaves that were already living on these parcels of land that were thrown off of it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. This was a slogan widely disseminated during Reconstruction. As you say, it originated in this order that General Sherman issued - William T. Sherman - in January 1865 after he had occupied the"}
{"id": "870459750", "date": "2020-06-05", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "Historian Eric Foner On The 'Unresolved Legacy Of Reconstruction'", "question_index": 5, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is historian Eric Foner. His new book is called \"Forever Free: The Story Of Emancipation And Reconstruction.\" Well, the end of slavery didn't mean equal rights for freed slaves. So there was a big debate in the country about what the rights of African Americans in the South should be. And what did Lincoln want before he was assassinated? When he was still president, what were his plans?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely, yes. One of the tragic things that happens in that period is toward the end of 1865, the very same Union army that had distributed land to some of these former slaves now comes back and te"}
{"id": "870459750", "date": "2020-06-05", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "Historian Eric Foner On The 'Unresolved Legacy Of Reconstruction'", "question_index": 6, "text": "Well, Congress passed a Civil Rights Act that President Andrew Johnson vetoed. But he - there was - he tried to veto it, but the Congress passed it - they had enough votes to pass it anyway. So what did this bill give to freed slaves in the South?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Lincoln was shot, of course, right when the Civil War is ending. And he never really laid out a fully worked out plan for Reconstruction. He had a number of plans operating at the same time in d"}
{"id": "870459750", "date": "2020-06-05", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "Historian Eric Foner On The 'Unresolved Legacy Of Reconstruction'", "question_index": 7, "text": "How did President Johnson argue against it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The civil rights bill of 1866, which is actually still on the books today over a century later, is one of the most critical laws ever passed by Congress. As you said, it was vetoed by Johnson. But the"}
{"id": "870459750", "date": "2020-06-05", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "Historian Eric Foner On The 'Unresolved Legacy Of Reconstruction'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Congress also passed the Reconstruction Act in 1867 over Andrew Johnson's veto. What did that act do?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2006 interview with historian Eric Foner. He has written about America's social and intellectual history since 1970, specializing in the topics of politics"}
{"id": "870459750", "date": "2020-06-05", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "Historian Eric Foner On The 'Unresolved Legacy Of Reconstruction'", "question_index": 9, "text": "And were black men running for office at this time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the Reconstruction Act went further than the Civil Rights Act because it gave blacks in the South the right to vote - black men. The Civil Rights Act hadn't dealt with voting. Johnson had set up"}
{"id": "870459750", "date": "2020-06-05", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "Historian Eric Foner On The 'Unresolved Legacy Of Reconstruction'", "question_index": 10, "text": "You know, we talked about some of the laws that were passed - the Reconstruction Act, the Civil Rights Act - that were passed during Reconstruction. The 14th Amendment to the Constitution was also ratified during Reconstruction. This was in July of 1868. How did that change the Constitution?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Black men served in office throughout the Reconstruction period and some did well after Reconstruction. My estimate - there's no exact number - but is that somewhere between 1,500 and 2,00"}
{"id": "870459750", "date": "2020-06-05", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "Historian Eric Foner On The 'Unresolved Legacy Of Reconstruction'", "question_index": 11, "text": "And how did this amendment change the balance of state and federal power when it came to the rights of citizens?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. The 14th Amendment - and, you know, when you think about why reconstruction is important, the 14th Amendment is one of the reasons. It really is the most important change in the Constitution si"}
{"id": "870459750", "date": "2020-06-05", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "Historian Eric Foner On The 'Unresolved Legacy Of Reconstruction'", "question_index": 12, "text": "You've painted a pretty positive picture of the legislation that was passed leading the nation toward real equality and equality for African Americans. But Reconstruction ends, and then the South starts to - southern states start to bring in - to introduce legislation in their states that limits voting rights, that, you know, Jim Crow laws that divide the country, divide the South into white and black schools and fountains and places. You know, segregation becomes the law of the land in the South. What happens? Why does all this direction toward equality suddenly end and then the South manages to turn things back to segregation?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's 2006 interview with historian Eric Foner. He's written extensively about the Civil War and Reconstruction and how "}
{"id": "870459750", "date": "2020-06-05", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "Historian Eric Foner On The 'Unresolved Legacy Of Reconstruction'", "question_index": 13, "text": "Yeah, how does the Ku Klux Klan come into being, and how does that relate to this period?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the retreat, you might say, or the abandonment of Reconstruction is a long process. It takes place over the last, you know, quarter, let's say, of the 19th century. We say 1877 is the end of Rec"}
{"id": "870459750", "date": "2020-06-05", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "Historian Eric Foner On The 'Unresolved Legacy Of Reconstruction'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, what are some of the laws that Southern states passed to limit and take away some of the rights that Reconstruction legislation had given African Americans?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the Klan begins in early Reconstruction - 1866-67. It spreads throughout the South pretty quickly. This is another reason why Reconstruction is important for us to think about because, you know,"}
{"id": "870459750", "date": "2020-06-05", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "Historian Eric Foner On The 'Unresolved Legacy Of Reconstruction'", "question_index": 15, "text": "When we talk about Reconstruction, I think it's the South that we're talking about. But a lot of freed slaves from the Civil War went to the North. So during the period of Reconstruction in the South, what are some of the things that were happening in the North in terms of civil rights issues, in terms of finding work and homes for the recently freed slaves who had travelled to the North?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, by the 1890s, most Southern states are passing laws - well, first of all, disenfranchisement laws. That is laws to eliminate black voting. Now, you couldn't just say only whites can vote because"}
{"id": "870459750", "date": "2020-06-05", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "Historian Eric Foner On The 'Unresolved Legacy Of Reconstruction'", "question_index": 16, "text": "I didn't realize that a lot of African Americans moved from the North to the South during Reconstruction.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, of course, reconstruction is a national phenomenon, although primarily in the South. Actually, Reconstruction is one of the few times in American history - until the very, very recent times - th"}
{"id": "870459750", "date": "2020-06-05", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "Historian Eric Foner On The 'Unresolved Legacy Of Reconstruction'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Are there any specific issues that we face today that you think we can't really understand unless we understand Reconstruction and the period where the South passed the Jim Crow laws and other laws limiting civil rights after Reconstruction?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2006 interview with historian Eric Foner. He's now the DeWitt Clinton professor of history at Columbia University and has written about America's social an"}
{"id": "870459750", "date": "2020-06-05", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "Historian Eric Foner On The 'Unresolved Legacy Of Reconstruction'", "question_index": 18, "text": "You know, you point out in your book that although we think of the United States as, you know, the land of the free, the land of freedom, that freedom has never been, really, defined in our country. What do you mean by that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think we need to - you know, we still have a fairly serious racial divide in this country. Obviously, we're not living in the 19th century. First of all, the racial configuration is entirely d"}
{"id": "870459750", "date": "2020-06-05", "guest": "Eric Foner", "title": "Historian Eric Foner On The 'Unresolved Legacy Of Reconstruction'", "question_index": 19, "text": "Eric Foner, thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that freedom has many meanings. It's not that it hasn't been defined; it's been defined in many different ways, and its meaning has changed over time, many times in our history. Freedom is, of"}
{"id": "870502199", "date": "2020-06-05", "guest": "Robb Forman Dew", "title": "Remembering Award-Winning Author Robb Forman Dew", "question_index": 0, "text": "You know, you had an image of him as being someone who was just beloved by everybody.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it didn't change my image of him, but I think this is particular to each family. I did feel foolish on one level that I had not - this is a person, along with his brother, whom I thought I knew be"}
{"id": "870502199", "date": "2020-06-05", "guest": "Robb Forman Dew", "title": "Remembering Award-Winning Author Robb Forman Dew", "question_index": 1, "text": "He did great in school. He, I think, was a good athlete as well. And you know, his teachers liked him. He had friends. And now you suspect that he might have been terribly lonely in one respect...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Golden."}
{"id": "870502199", "date": "2020-06-05", "guest": "Robb Forman Dew", "title": "Remembering Award-Winning Author Robb Forman Dew", "question_index": 2, "text": "...During his school years.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "870502199", "date": "2020-06-05", "guest": "Robb Forman Dew", "title": "Remembering Award-Winning Author Robb Forman Dew", "question_index": 3, "text": "Your son told you after he came out that you could ask him any questions and he would answer them. Were there questions that you asked that, in looking back, you shouldn't have or questions that you wish you asked but you didn't?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oddly enough, it was the idea of his high school years that I have the most trouble with because he was so successful. And I think a lot of his energy was driven into being a summa cum laude graduate "}
{"id": "870502199", "date": "2020-06-05", "guest": "Robb Forman Dew", "title": "Remembering Award-Winning Author Robb Forman Dew", "question_index": 4, "text": "It sounds like the family you've created is a reasonably happy family, a reasonably close-knit family. But from what I've read about you, you didn't come from a happy family.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wish I had immediately asked him, explain to me what this means. Explain to me, is this different? Or do you know if this is different? How can I imagine your life? Because when finally I did ask th"}
{"id": "870502199", "date": "2020-06-05", "guest": "Robb Forman Dew", "title": "Remembering Award-Winning Author Robb Forman Dew", "question_index": 5, "text": "Did growing up in a fairly unhappy family make you more confident that you wanted a family of your own?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's true. The family - they were all so interesting, the people. My mother and father were fascinating and quite brilliant. They really weren't very happy married to each other. My father was"}
{"id": "870502199", "date": "2020-06-05", "guest": "Robb Forman Dew", "title": "Remembering Award-Winning Author Robb Forman Dew", "question_index": 6, "text": "I mean, you seem so family-oriented now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "870502199", "date": "2020-06-05", "guest": "Robb Forman Dew", "title": "Remembering Award-Winning Author Robb Forman Dew", "question_index": 7, "text": "You have a passage in your new memoir that I found both very moving and kind of funny, too. And you're talking about all the superstitions and rituals parents will go through when they feel that their child might be in jeopardy, to kind of do right by fate.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know. I think that's probably - it's probably some sort of psychological term. I think it's compensatory family-making, I don't know. No. In fact, I was terrified when I was pregnant. I thought, wha"}
{"id": "870502199", "date": "2020-06-05", "guest": "Robb Forman Dew", "title": "Remembering Award-Winning Author Robb Forman Dew", "question_index": 8, "text": "And your example is of a friend who, whenever her child is on a plane coming home from a visit with his father on the opposite coast, what does she do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "870502199", "date": "2020-06-05", "guest": "Robb Forman Dew", "title": "Remembering Award-Winning Author Robb Forman Dew", "question_index": 9, "text": "What's the point of scrubbing the house?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She scrubs her entire house. And I know just exactly - she's a wonderful..."}
{"id": "870502199", "date": "2020-06-05", "guest": "Robb Forman Dew", "title": "Remembering Award-Winning Author Robb Forman Dew", "question_index": 10, "text": "What do you do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, if she has any fun while her children are in the air, I know she feels that she - that somehow they'll take her children away from - they will - the plane will crash because how dare she have fu"}
{"id": "870502199", "date": "2020-06-05", "guest": "Robb Forman Dew", "title": "Remembering Award-Winning Author Robb Forman Dew", "question_index": 11, "text": "So you have to sleep in them, too, to make this work?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what I do is wear my opal earrings, which I have on right now, actually. One of my children is traveling right now. They're really not even pretty. But my children gave - I was born in October, "}
{"id": "870502199", "date": "2020-06-05", "guest": "Robb Forman Dew", "title": "Remembering Award-Winning Author Robb Forman Dew", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what I do is wear my opal earrings, which I have on right now, actually. One of my children is traveling right now. They're really not even pretty. But my children gave - I was born in October, "}
{"id": "872847686", "date": "2020-06-09", "guest": "Matt Zapotosky", "title": "Reporter Details William Barr's Effort To Uphold Trump's 'Law And Order' Image", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Last week, in Washington, D.C., in response to peaceful protests and to looting and arson, the Trump administration called in the National Guard, Customs and Border Protection, Immigration and Customs Enforcement and the Bureau of Prisons. Active duty military were put on standby. On Monday, June 1, smoke, tear gas, pepper balls and, according to protesters, rubber bullets were used to clear peaceful protesters from Lafayette Square across from the White House just before President Trump's Bible photo-op. Many protesters have called for defunding the police. On Sunday of this week, the Minneapolis City Council passed a veto-proof resolution to dismantle the city's police department. The council president, Lisa Bender, said, it's our commitment to end policing as we know it and recreate systems of public safety that actually keep us safe. My guest, Matt Zapotosky, covers the Justice Department for The Washington Post. In an article he co-wrote, the White House was described as being so fortified, it resembled a monarchical palace or authoritarian compound. We're going to talk about the role of Attorney General William Barr and how the Trump administration has handled the protests and how the Justice Department has been dealing with previous complaints about police brutality, police killings and systemic racism. Matt Zapotosky, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "872847686", "date": "2020-06-09", "guest": "Matt Zapotosky", "title": "Reporter Details William Barr's Effort To Uphold Trump's 'Law And Order' Image", "question_index": 1, "text": "So Minneapolis is planning to disband the police force and recreate something. William Barr has said, I think there's racism in the U.S. But I don't think that the law enforcement system is systematically racist. Is the Department of Justice doing anything to examine the George Floyd case?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having me."}
{"id": "872847686", "date": "2020-06-09", "guest": "Matt Zapotosky", "title": "Reporter Details William Barr's Effort To Uphold Trump's 'Law And Order' Image", "question_index": 2, "text": "How is it being interpreted that the Justice Department is not looking into that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They are doing something to examine the George Floyd case in particular in that they've opened a civil rights investigation into the death. So that would look at whether the particular officers involv"}
{"id": "872847686", "date": "2020-06-09", "guest": "Matt Zapotosky", "title": "Reporter Details William Barr's Effort To Uphold Trump's 'Law And Order' Image", "question_index": 3, "text": "William Barr was tapped by Trump to direct the national response to the protests. Is that typically the attorney general's role?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the Justice Department is under a lot of pressure to look into that. All of the Democrats on the House Judiciary Committee have called for them to do that. Many civil liberties advocates have ca"}
{"id": "872847686", "date": "2020-06-09", "guest": "Matt Zapotosky", "title": "Reporter Details William Barr's Effort To Uphold Trump's 'Law And Order' Image", "question_index": 4, "text": "You know, another question about the Bureau of Prisons - when people are trained to deal with a prison riot, that is really different than dealing with a protest about a police killing. I'm sure the training is probably different for that. Were there any objections within the Trump administration to bringing out people trained in prison riots to the streets of Washington?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In this instance, I think his role grew beyond what you normally think of the attorney general doing. The attorney general is the chief law enforcement officer of the country and is in command of all "}
{"id": "872847686", "date": "2020-06-09", "guest": "Matt Zapotosky", "title": "Reporter Details William Barr's Effort To Uphold Trump's 'Law And Order' Image", "question_index": 5, "text": "What were Customs and Border Protection and ICE - Immigration and Customs Enforcement - doing there and the Transportation Security Administration?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know that you saw any internal objections, but you certainly saw some of the issues that come with that. These guys were on the street without any identifying information in some cases. So peo"}
{"id": "872847686", "date": "2020-06-09", "guest": "Matt Zapotosky", "title": "Reporter Details William Barr's Effort To Uphold Trump's 'Law And Order' Image", "question_index": 6, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Matt Zapotosky. He covers the Justice Department for The Washington Post. We'll talk more after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. All of these people were kind of filling - I mean, filling what they normally do, but just in the context of protests. So like, you know, I'm thinking in particular of DEA. They gave DEA this br"}
{"id": "872847686", "date": "2020-06-09", "guest": "Matt Zapotosky", "title": "Reporter Details William Barr's Effort To Uphold Trump's 'Law And Order' Image", "question_index": 7, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Matt Zapotosky. He covers the Justice Department for The Washington Post. We're talking about the Trump administration's use of force against protesters last week. You spoke with a former Secret Service agent who objected to how the Secret Service was used back on Monday, June 1. What was his objection?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. All of these people were kind of filling - I mean, filling what they normally do, but just in the context of protests. So like, you know, I'm thinking in particular of DEA. They gave DEA this br"}
{"id": "872847686", "date": "2020-06-09", "guest": "Matt Zapotosky", "title": "Reporter Details William Barr's Effort To Uphold Trump's 'Law And Order' Image", "question_index": 8, "text": "Your paper, The Washington Post, reported and you reported that it was William Barr who gave the order to push back the protesters outside the White House and that when Barr came to the scene on Monday, June 1, he said he was surprised to see that the perimeter hadn't been pushed back around the White House and Lafayette Square, and Barr said get it done. He has contradicted that. What's the Barr version of who gave the order and what Barr said?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, so on Monday, there was, you know, what has now been a widely condemned move to push back this crowd of largely peaceful demonstrators outside of the White House. These people had been gat"}
{"id": "872847686", "date": "2020-06-09", "guest": "Matt Zapotosky", "title": "Reporter Details William Barr's Effort To Uphold Trump's 'Law And Order' Image", "question_index": 9, "text": "One way or another, he was seen on camera talking with law enforcement about 24 minutes before law enforcement moved in on the protesters.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, to be honest with you, it's still a little murky. And I would sort of dispute that he's contradicted that. His telling is just a little more complicated, although we told this, too. So by his te"}
{"id": "872847686", "date": "2020-06-09", "guest": "Matt Zapotosky", "title": "Reporter Details William Barr's Effort To Uphold Trump's 'Law And Order' Image", "question_index": 10, "text": "Now, Barr says that the protesters weren't cleared for the purposes of Trump's Bible photo op outside St. John's Church. What have you learned about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "872847686", "date": "2020-06-09", "guest": "Matt Zapotosky", "title": "Reporter Details William Barr's Effort To Uphold Trump's 'Law And Order' Image", "question_index": 11, "text": "The Washington, D.C., police had not requested outside help, at least that's my understanding. What is the protocol for when a presidential administration has the authority to call in outside forces to assist local police in the district?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He has tried to disconnect the move on protesters from the photo op. And, essentially, he has said, at 2 p.m., when I - you know, when I formally told law enforcement agencies this needs to happ"}
{"id": "872847686", "date": "2020-06-09", "guest": "Matt Zapotosky", "title": "Reporter Details William Barr's Effort To Uphold Trump's 'Law And Order' Image", "question_index": 12, "text": "What would it have meant to federalize the D.C. police?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you got to remember D.C. is not a state. It has many more federal police who operate here all the time, and there are various memorandums of understanding about what they can and can't do. Usual"}
{"id": "872847686", "date": "2020-06-09", "guest": "Matt Zapotosky", "title": "Reporter Details William Barr's Effort To Uphold Trump's 'Law And Order' Image", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well, we're seeing a lot of friction now between the mayor of Washington, D.C., and the Trump administration. Have you seen anything like that before?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I guess it would have meant that the federal government would be giving commands to those guys, that they no longer would be taking orders from the mayor and the police chief. I guess I don't re"}
{"id": "872847686", "date": "2020-06-09", "guest": "Matt Zapotosky", "title": "Reporter Details William Barr's Effort To Uphold Trump's 'Law And Order' Image", "question_index": 14, "text": "So on Sunday, the Trump administration gave orders to pull out the state National Guard from D.C. within 48 to 72 hours. What did they actually do last - a week ago?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Certainly not to this scale. I mean, you know, painting the street with Black Lives Matter right outside the White House, projecting Black Lives Matter, you know, on a building near the White House an"}
{"id": "872847686", "date": "2020-06-09", "guest": "Matt Zapotosky", "title": "Reporter Details William Barr's Effort To Uphold Trump's 'Law And Order' Image", "question_index": 15, "text": "When Trump said that he was going to withdraw the National Guard, he offered as a reason that far fewer protesters had shown up than anticipated on Saturday night. I don't know exactly what that means since we have no idea what Trump anticipated.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the National Guard were here helping do crowd control. You know, you saw them in front of the White House. You saw them out on the street. The National Guard had been deployed to help, you know,"}
{"id": "872847686", "date": "2020-06-09", "guest": "Matt Zapotosky", "title": "Reporter Details William Barr's Effort To Uphold Trump's 'Law And Order' Image", "question_index": 16, "text": "What were some of the things that Trump or William Barr have said in defense of the actions against protesters, things that they've said that are not accurate?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I haven't been on the ground. Our very talented local staff has been handling that. By their telling, the crowds have numbered still in the many thousands. They have been much more peaceful. You ha"}
{"id": "872847686", "date": "2020-06-09", "guest": "Matt Zapotosky", "title": "Reporter Details William Barr's Effort To Uphold Trump's 'Law And Order' Image", "question_index": 17, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Matt Zapotosky. He covers the Justice Department for The Washington Post. We'll be back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, particularly, referring to this Monday pushback, the controversial pushback of protesters outside of Lafayette Square, Barr has claimed that no tear gas was used. Our reporters and demonstrators"}
{"id": "872847686", "date": "2020-06-09", "guest": "Matt Zapotosky", "title": "Reporter Details William Barr's Effort To Uphold Trump's 'Law And Order' Image", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Matt Zapotosky. He covers the Justice Department for The Washington Post and has been writing about the department's role in the Trump administration's use of force against protesters in Washington, D.C., last week. Do you think the Trump administration has set any precedents regarding the use of force, precedents that might be used in the future?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, particularly, referring to this Monday pushback, the controversial pushback of protesters outside of Lafayette Square, Barr has claimed that no tear gas was used. Our reporters and demonstrators"}
{"id": "872847686", "date": "2020-06-09", "guest": "Matt Zapotosky", "title": "Reporter Details William Barr's Effort To Uphold Trump's 'Law And Order' Image", "question_index": 19, "text": "You know what I've been wondering? Is the Trump administration - and I know you can't really answer this. But maybe you've heard talk. Is the Trump administration worried that the next big demonstrations will be against them, will be against the Trump administration or President Trump in particular? And I'm wondering if they're concerned about that and if they're thinking about, how do they protect themselves, the White House, if that happens?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Boy, that's a really interesting question. I mean, I think anytime you see a response to unrest, and particularly one that is this dramatic, there are lessons that are learned from it, both positive a"}
{"id": "872847686", "date": "2020-06-09", "guest": "Matt Zapotosky", "title": "Reporter Details William Barr's Effort To Uphold Trump's 'Law And Order' Image", "question_index": 20, "text": "I want to quote something in an article that you co-wrote in The Washington Post about how the White House was \"transformed into a veritable fortress - the physical manifestation of Trump's vision of law-and-order domination over the millions of Americans who've taken to the streets to protest racial injustice. The White House is so heavily fortified that it resembles the monarchical palaces or authoritarian compounds of regimes in faraway lands.\" Do you know if that's the image that Trump wants to give?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think I can answer that. I mean, after you saw what happened in Lafayette Square, the demonstration really seemed to grow in size, one. And two, it also seemed to really center on the White Ho"}
{"id": "872847686", "date": "2020-06-09", "guest": "Matt Zapotosky", "title": "Reporter Details William Barr's Effort To Uphold Trump's 'Law And Order' Image", "question_index": 21, "text": "William Barr has said that many protesters have been peaceful. And he blamed extremist agitators for exploiting the situation. And he said the agitators have a variety of different political persuasions, but the only group he actually named was ANTIFA, which is an antifascist group, but it is associated with the very far left as opposed to the very far right. But there's been a lot of talk that some of the people responsible for acts of violence were actually from far-right groups who would like to see just chaos. And some of them would even like to see a civil war in America. Some of these far-right groups are white supremacist groups. So I'm wondering what you've been hearing about investigations into who is responsible for creating some of the chaos and violence that we have seen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Certainly he wants to give this law-and-order image, right? If you think back to his inauguration, he gives this very dark speech where he uses the phrase American carnage, talks about backing law enf"}
{"id": "872847686", "date": "2020-06-09", "guest": "Matt Zapotosky", "title": "Reporter Details William Barr's Effort To Uphold Trump's 'Law And Order' Image", "question_index": 22, "text": "My guest is Matt Zapotosky. He covers the Justice Department for The Washington Post. We'll talk more after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They've charged now, federally, dozens of people with various violent acts connected to the protest. Sometimes it's because the people possess or try to distribute Molotov cocktails, other times it's "}
{"id": "872847686", "date": "2020-06-09", "guest": "Matt Zapotosky", "title": "Reporter Details William Barr's Effort To Uphold Trump's 'Law And Order' Image", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Matt Zapotosky. He covers the Justice Department for The Washington Post. We're talking about Attorney General William Barr's role in the Trump administration's response to the protests. The Trump administration considered using the Insurrection Act. What is it? And how has it been used in the past?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They've charged now, federally, dozens of people with various violent acts connected to the protest. Sometimes it's because the people possess or try to distribute Molotov cocktails, other times it's "}
{"id": "872847686", "date": "2020-06-09", "guest": "Matt Zapotosky", "title": "Reporter Details William Barr's Effort To Uphold Trump's 'Law And Order' Image", "question_index": 24, "text": "But he didn't use the act. Do you know why he considered it and then didn't use it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. The Insurrection Act is this law that essentially gives the president the authority to deploy active duty military to enforce domestic laws. I think most people have this concept in their head t"}
{"id": "872847686", "date": "2020-06-09", "guest": "Matt Zapotosky", "title": "Reporter Details William Barr's Effort To Uphold Trump's 'Law And Order' Image", "question_index": 25, "text": "Barr said at an award ceremony for policing in December that communities have to start showing, more than they do, the respect and support that law enforcement deserves. And if communities don't give that support and respect, they may find themselves without the police protection they need. How was that interpreted?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ultimately, he didn't use it. By Bill Barr's telling, by the secretary of defense's telling, they considered this a sort of last resort, extreme measure. I think the secretary of defense has come out "}
{"id": "872847686", "date": "2020-06-09", "guest": "Matt Zapotosky", "title": "Reporter Details William Barr's Effort To Uphold Trump's 'Law And Order' Image", "question_index": 26, "text": "What has the Justice Department done or decided not to do to investigate police departments where they have been accused of systematic racism?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This was sort of a remarkable statement that he made. And it seemed to be suggesting, like, look; you better back police or the police won't be there to protect you. And it's just a remarkable asserti"}
{"id": "872847686", "date": "2020-06-09", "guest": "Matt Zapotosky", "title": "Reporter Details William Barr's Effort To Uphold Trump's 'Law And Order' Image", "question_index": 27, "text": "Well, you know, in 2014 after Michael Brown was killed in the hands of police, Attorney General Eric Holder announced that the Justice Department would investigate not just Michael Brown's killing in Ferguson, but the entire Ferguson Police Department. What was the outcome? Did it amount to substantive change?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the Justice Department and the Trump administration has abandoned a number of sort of systemic reform efforts that we saw in the Obama administration, the most notable of those is these pattern-"}
{"id": "872847686", "date": "2020-06-09", "guest": "Matt Zapotosky", "title": "Reporter Details William Barr's Effort To Uphold Trump's 'Law And Order' Image", "question_index": 28, "text": "So Barr did organize on the president's orders a new national commission to study issues in law enforcement, such as training and data collection. But that's been controversial. How come?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it did produce a very long, scathing report. And the city, after a lot of tense negotiation, ultimately signed a court-enforceable agreement to force reforms. And you saw that not just in Fergus"}
{"id": "872847686", "date": "2020-06-09", "guest": "Matt Zapotosky", "title": "Reporter Details William Barr's Effort To Uphold Trump's 'Law And Order' Image", "question_index": 29, "text": "Have investigations been proposed into the Trump administration's handling of protesters last week?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So this is the thing that he has pointed to as his police reform effort. But civil liberty advocates right when that thing was convened pointed out this is all law enforcement people, you know? "}
{"id": "872847686", "date": "2020-06-09", "guest": "Matt Zapotosky", "title": "Reporter Details William Barr's Effort To Uphold Trump's 'Law And Order' Image", "question_index": 30, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Matt Zapotosky. He covers the Justice Department for The Washington Post. We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely. I think lawmakers are already investigating, so to speak, requesting information on what happened outside of Lafayette Square. So definitely there is an intense desire among lawmakers "}
{"id": "872847686", "date": "2020-06-09", "guest": "Matt Zapotosky", "title": "Reporter Details William Barr's Effort To Uphold Trump's 'Law And Order' Image", "question_index": 31, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Matt Zapotosky. He covers the Justice Department for The Washington Post. We're talking about the Trump administration's use of force against protesters last week. So much of American's attention has been focused on the pandemic and on the protests against George Floyd's killing. What else has Attorney General William Barr been up to? Because a lot of people are not paying attention to the rest of the news right now because the pandemic and the protests are so consuming. I mean, that's where so many of us have our attention focused.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely. I think lawmakers are already investigating, so to speak, requesting information on what happened outside of Lafayette Square. So definitely there is an intense desire among lawmakers "}
{"id": "872847686", "date": "2020-06-09", "guest": "Matt Zapotosky", "title": "Reporter Details William Barr's Effort To Uphold Trump's 'Law And Order' Image", "question_index": 32, "text": "What are some of the other issues in which Barr has been accused of siding with the president as opposed to siding with standard legal procedures and legal judgments?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, and I think Attorney General Barr has his attention largely focused on those issues, too. You know, his staff has told us in recent days that he's taken an extremely hands-on role in manag"}
{"id": "872847686", "date": "2020-06-09", "guest": "Matt Zapotosky", "title": "Reporter Details William Barr's Effort To Uphold Trump's 'Law And Order' Image", "question_index": 33, "text": "You've been covering how the Trump administration has used law enforcement to deal with the protesters in Washington. Before covering the Justice Department, you covered Prince George's County for The Washington Post, and you covered policing, like, local policing. What are some of the things you learned covering local policing that are helping you in covering the protests now and the Trump administration's response to the protests?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the Flynn case that I just mentioned is a big one. If you go back to the sentencing of Roger Stone - this is another longtime associate of President Trump, who was convicted at a trial of lying "}
{"id": "872847686", "date": "2020-06-09", "guest": "Matt Zapotosky", "title": "Reporter Details William Barr's Effort To Uphold Trump's 'Law And Order' Image", "question_index": 34, "text": "Matt Zapotosky, thank you so much for talking to us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, that's a great question. I've been actually thinking a lot about my time in Prince George's County and even covering police shootings. And I think when I covered that, videos sort of weren't"}
{"id": "872847686", "date": "2020-06-09", "guest": "Matt Zapotosky", "title": "Reporter Details William Barr's Effort To Uphold Trump's 'Law And Order' Image", "question_index": 35, "text": "Matt Zapotosky covers the Justice Department for The Washington Post. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll talk about how disproportionate use of force can turn a peaceful protest violent and how before George Floyd's death, Minneapolis failed to remove bad officers. My guest will be Jamiles Lartey, who reports on the justice system for The Marshall Project and was part of a team at The Guardian that tracked police violence in America. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having me."}
{"id": "872847686", "date": "2020-06-09", "guest": "Matt Zapotosky", "title": "Reporter Details William Barr's Effort To Uphold Trump's 'Law And Order' Image", "question_index": 36, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Joel Wolfram. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross. [", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having me."}
{"id": "875772317", "date": "2020-06-12", "guest": "James Baldwin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Listens Back To James Baldwin And Documentary Filmmaker Raoul Peck", "question_index": 0, "text": "You became a preacher when you were 14.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was something very frightening about it."}
{"id": "875772317", "date": "2020-06-12", "guest": "James Baldwin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Listens Back To James Baldwin And Documentary Filmmaker Raoul Peck", "question_index": 1, "text": "Why did you do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "875772317", "date": "2020-06-12", "guest": "James Baldwin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Listens Back To James Baldwin And Documentary Filmmaker Raoul Peck", "question_index": 2, "text": "So by being a preacher, you didn't have to - you were able to, like, put on the back shelf for a while sexuality and entering adulthood and those kinds of things?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was almost inevitable, you know, being raised that way. And after all, I'm not doubting anything my father said, not doubting the Gospel, not doubting the church, you know. And at the time of"}
{"id": "875772317", "date": "2020-06-12", "guest": "James Baldwin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Listens Back To James Baldwin And Documentary Filmmaker Raoul Peck", "question_index": 3, "text": "What did you do to try to get your foot in the door somewhere as a writer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it didn't work, actually. You know, I mean, I was in the pulpit for three years. And all those - you know, all of the elements which had drawn me in the pulpit, you know, were still there, were "}
{"id": "875772317", "date": "2020-06-12", "guest": "James Baldwin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Listens Back To James Baldwin And Documentary Filmmaker Raoul Peck", "question_index": 4, "text": "\"Go Tell It On The Mountain\" was a fairly autobiographical novel. And it really won you a lot of attention and prestige in America. Your book of essays, \"The Fire Next Time,\" which was published in 1963, was I think perceived by many whites as an attack against whites. Like, he's threatening us with the fire next time. Did that happen? Did some white people see it that way? And did it change your reputation to becoming more of a controversial writer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I wrote all the time, you know. I worked all day, and I wrote all night. And I learned a lot. I began to be being published when I was 22. I had a fellowship when I was 21. And something else wa"}
{"id": "875772317", "date": "2020-06-12", "guest": "James Baldwin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Listens Back To James Baldwin And Documentary Filmmaker Raoul Peck", "question_index": 5, "text": "You've been very outspoken about civil rights issues and about black issues in America, but you've been much less outspoken about homosexual issues.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Long before that when I first got South - first went South and tried to begin to - 'cause I went as a reporter, and I tried to get the story published, you know. The first few times I - first few maga"}
{"id": "875772317", "date": "2020-06-12", "guest": "James Baldwin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Listens Back To James Baldwin And Documentary Filmmaker Raoul Peck", "question_index": 6, "text": "And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "875772317", "date": "2020-06-12", "guest": "James Baldwin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Listens Back To James Baldwin And Documentary Filmmaker Raoul Peck", "question_index": 7, "text": "And I'm just thinking that in a way, homosexuals have been marginalized in both the white and black parts of American culture.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Go ahead."}
{"id": "875772317", "date": "2020-06-12", "guest": "James Baldwin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Listens Back To James Baldwin And Documentary Filmmaker Raoul Peck", "question_index": 8, "text": "Some of your writing has really been, I think, very important to gay people and people in the gay movement in America. And I wonder if the gay liberation movement had any effect on you, if it was important for you to have, you know, a movement...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there's no point in mixing the two questions. It only leads to terrible confusion. And in America in any case, the homosexual question is tied up with the whole American idea of masculinity - th"}
{"id": "875772317", "date": "2020-06-12", "guest": "James Baldwin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Listens Back To James Baldwin And Documentary Filmmaker Raoul Peck", "question_index": 9, "text": "...About that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "875772317", "date": "2020-06-12", "guest": "James Baldwin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Listens Back To James Baldwin And Documentary Filmmaker Raoul Peck", "question_index": 10, "text": "Raoul Peck, welcome to FRESH AIR. What did James Baldwin mean to you when you were first starting to read serious literature and to become aware of the civil rights movement in America?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) I was in some way, in those years, without entirely realizing it, the great black hope of the great white father. I was not a racist - or so I thought."}
{"id": "875772317", "date": "2020-06-12", "guest": "James Baldwin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Listens Back To James Baldwin And Documentary Filmmaker Raoul Peck", "question_index": 11, "text": "Can you give me an example of something he wrote that stayed with you that you read when you were young?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first of all, I learned about him very early on between end of high school and beginning of university - of college. And the first book I read was \"The Fire Next Time.\" And at that time, you kno"}
{"id": "875772317", "date": "2020-06-12", "guest": "James Baldwin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Listens Back To James Baldwin And Documentary Filmmaker Raoul Peck", "question_index": 12, "text": "There's a fascinating part of the film in which you have archival footage of a 15-year-old African American girl who's integrating a white school. She's the only black student, as far as I can tell. And she's being sneered at and insulted and surrounded...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"The Fire Next Time\" was not only for me the story of an elder who's trying to teach a younger nephew, you know, the facts of life, what I probably got from that is the notion of different perspective"}
{"id": "875772317", "date": "2020-06-12", "guest": "James Baldwin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Listens Back To James Baldwin And Documentary Filmmaker Raoul Peck", "question_index": 13, "text": "Yes - and mocked. And she's just, like, standing up to it. She's just, like, looking straight ahead. She has this look of determination on her face. And you quote Baldwin as saying, you know, that he felt someone should be there with her. And he was living in France at the time. And this had a pivotal role in his life. Would you describe the story of this girl and her impact on James Baldwin?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Dorothy Counts, yes."}
{"id": "875772317", "date": "2020-06-12", "guest": "James Baldwin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Listens Back To James Baldwin And Documentary Filmmaker Raoul Peck", "question_index": 14, "text": "My guest is Raoul Peck. He directed the film \"I Am Not Your Negro\" about James Baldwin. Here's the part of the film we were talking about where Samuel Jackson is reading from Baldwin's writing about the photo of Dorothy Counts.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, as always, Baldwin is always somebody who can, you know, change the perspective. You know, we all saw those pictures. You know, I was too young, of course. But even later on when, you know, we u"}
{"id": "877108426", "date": "2020-06-15", "guest": "Eve Ewing", "title": "Poet Eve Ewing Connects 1919 Chicago To Today's Racial Unrest", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. While writing a book about systemic racial inequality in Chicago public schools, my guest Eve L. Ewing did a lot of research into the history of segregation in Chicago. One of the most helpful documents she read was a report published in 1922 titled \"The Negro In Chicago: A Study On Race Relations And A Race Riot.\" It was written by six black men and six white men who were asked to research the reasons behind the riots in Chicago in July 1919 and to make recommendations about how to prevent them from happening again. The 1919 riots started after a 17-year-old black youth was swimming in Lake Michigan and swam into a part of the lake that was considered for whites only. He was stoned by white people and drowned. Black people on the black part of the beach demanded that a police officer arrest the person considered responsible, and he refused. Ewing's book \"1919\" is a series of poems in response to the report. Most of the poems open with a quote from the report. Her book won this year's best poetry book award from the Black Caucus of the American Library Association. Ewing is also a sociologist who teaches classes on race and education at the University of Chicago School of Social Service Administration, where she's an assistant professor. Her books include \"Ghosts In The Schoolyard: Racism And School Closings On Chicago's South Side.\" She also writes the \"Champions\" series for Marvel comics and previously wrote the \"Ironheart\" series. We're going to start by talking about her book of poems \"1919.\" Eve Ewing, welcome to FRESH AIR. I want to start with your book of poems \"1919.\" It seems so relevant to today. You know, we all say if you want to understand what's happening now, you have to understand history. This is a really interesting part of that history that very few people know about, I think. So the book of poems is inspired by the report that was commissioned after the riots in 1919. It was a commission of six black men and six white men who were tasked with analyzing what happened during the riots, why it happened and to make recommendations from preventing that from happening again. Before we get to what precipitated this uprising, let's talk about the opening quote that you use in the book, which is a quote from the introduction to the report. And that quote is, \"the report contains recommendations, which, if acted upon, will make impossible, in my opinion, a repetition of the appalling tragedy which brought disgrace to Chicago in July of 1919.\" What do you think about when you read that quote?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "877108426", "date": "2020-06-15", "guest": "Eve Ewing", "title": "Poet Eve Ewing Connects 1919 Chicago To Today's Racial Unrest", "question_index": 1, "text": "What were the recommendations in that report?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the most obvious thing that comes to mind is the many repetitions of these appalling tragedies that we've seen since the report was written. And I think part of what I wanted to do in juxtaposin"}
{"id": "877108426", "date": "2020-06-15", "guest": "Eve Ewing", "title": "Poet Eve Ewing Connects 1919 Chicago To Today's Racial Unrest", "question_index": 2, "text": "So I want to read another paragraph from the introduction to this report. And I think it shows the perspective of a hundred years ago that these people who were writing the report were looking at the issue of race. And they're trying to contend with, like - there's all these people who moved to Chicago during the Great Migration. And a lot of white people, like, don't want them there. You know, how do we deal with this? How do we deal with the issue of race and that black people were brought here as slaves? So they write, countless schemes have been proposed for solving or dismissing this problem, most of them impractical or impossible. Of this class, such proposals as, one, the deportation of 12 million Negroes to Africa; two, the establishment of a separate Negro state in the U.S.; three, complete separation and segregation from the whites and the establishment of a caste system or peasant class and, four, hope for a solution through the dying out of the Negro race. Now, the people who wrote this report later say it is now recognized generally that the two races are here in America to stay. So a hundred years ago, they're still addressing the issue of, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's funny. They're recommendations that would look really familiar to you in a report that somebody might put out now - so things like, we need to make sure that black people in Chicago have access t"}
{"id": "877108426", "date": "2020-06-15", "guest": "Eve Ewing", "title": "Poet Eve Ewing Connects 1919 Chicago To Today's Racial Unrest", "question_index": 3, "text": "What do we do with these black people", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What do we do?"}
{"id": "877108426", "date": "2020-06-15", "guest": "Eve Ewing", "title": "Poet Eve Ewing Connects 1919 Chicago To Today's Racial Unrest", "question_index": 4, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What do we do?"}
{"id": "877108426", "date": "2020-06-15", "guest": "Eve Ewing", "title": "Poet Eve Ewing Connects 1919 Chicago To Today's Racial Unrest", "question_index": 5, "text": "Like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, right."}
{"id": "877108426", "date": "2020-06-15", "guest": "Eve Ewing", "title": "Poet Eve Ewing Connects 1919 Chicago To Today's Racial Unrest", "question_index": 6, "text": "But I think the most shocking part there is hope for a solution through the dying out of the Negro race. And again, it's not the people writing the report who are proposing this. They're looking at how people have dealt with it in the past or thought about it in the past. But it's a part of the past that they're still contending with in...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. What do we do? And by the way, you know, the premise of that entire quote also rests on the erasure of Indigenous people, right? So even the framing of the two races is kind of predicated on th"}
{"id": "877108426", "date": "2020-06-15", "guest": "Eve Ewing", "title": "Poet Eve Ewing Connects 1919 Chicago To Today's Racial Unrest", "question_index": 7, "text": "...The present of the 1920s.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "877108426", "date": "2020-06-15", "guest": "Eve Ewing", "title": "Poet Eve Ewing Connects 1919 Chicago To Today's Racial Unrest", "question_index": 8, "text": "Your book of poems is written in dialogue with this report. So after hearing that paragraph Countless Schemes from the report, you have a poem called \"Countless Schemes.\" Would you read it for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And I think it's shocking to hear said explicitly. But I think one of the things about this text that resonates for the present moment is that, you know, I think that there are a lot of people "}
{"id": "877108426", "date": "2020-06-15", "guest": "Eve Ewing", "title": "Poet Eve Ewing Connects 1919 Chicago To Today's Racial Unrest", "question_index": 9, "text": "And you pair this poem with the passage that I read.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd be happy to."}
{"id": "877108426", "date": "2020-06-15", "guest": "Eve Ewing", "title": "Poet Eve Ewing Connects 1919 Chicago To Today's Racial Unrest", "question_index": 10, "text": "Thanks for reading that, Eve. And that's from Eve Ewing's book of poems \"1919.\" I didn't know about the riot of 1919. I didn't know about Red Summer, in which there were riots in several cities across America related to racial issues. How did you become aware of it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "an archival text, which, by the way, is available in its entirety in .PDF widely on the Internet. So folks who really want you can go read it. But yes, I'm going to read this poem. The title is \"Count"}
{"id": "877108426", "date": "2020-06-15", "guest": "Eve Ewing", "title": "Poet Eve Ewing Connects 1919 Chicago To Today's Racial Unrest", "question_index": 11, "text": "Well, we need to take a short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is poet and sociologist Eve Ewing. Her book of poems is called \"1919.\" Her book about Chicago's schools is called \"Ghosts In The Schoolyard: Racism And School Closings On Chicago's South Side.\" We'll be back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, Terry, I think that you are very much not alone in not being very familiar with this period in history, and that's something I've thought about a lot. My working theory after, you know, bein"}
{"id": "877108426", "date": "2020-06-15", "guest": "Eve Ewing", "title": "Poet Eve Ewing Connects 1919 Chicago To Today's Racial Unrest", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is Eve Ewing, a poet and sociologist who teaches courses on race and education at the University of Chicago, where she's an assistant professor. Her book of poems \"1919\" is a collection of poems reacting to a report written in 1921 by a commission appointed to investigate the 1919 riots in Chicago and come up with recommendations to prevent a recurrence. Her book about the closing of Chicago's schools, deemed underresourced and underutilized, is called \"Ghosts In The Schoolyard: Racism And School Closings On Chicago's South Side.\" So what precipitated the 1919 riot in Chicago?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, Terry, I think that you are very much not alone in not being very familiar with this period in history, and that's something I've thought about a lot. My working theory after, you know, bein"}
{"id": "877108426", "date": "2020-06-15", "guest": "Eve Ewing", "title": "Poet Eve Ewing Connects 1919 Chicago To Today's Racial Unrest", "question_index": 13, "text": "You have a poem about Eugene Williams drowning...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The broader context is that during the Great Migration, thousands and thousands of black people are coming North from the agricultural South, looking for work, trying to escape what was really a viole"}
{"id": "877108426", "date": "2020-06-15", "guest": "Eve Ewing", "title": "Poet Eve Ewing Connects 1919 Chicago To Today's Racial Unrest", "question_index": 14, "text": "...And dying. It's called \"Jump/Rope,\" and it's written like a jump-rope rhyme. Would you read it for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "877108426", "date": "2020-06-15", "guest": "Eve Ewing", "title": "Poet Eve Ewing Connects 1919 Chicago To Today's Racial Unrest", "question_index": 15, "text": "Thank you, Eve. It's a beautiful poem. What inspired you to write it as a jump-rope rhyme?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like all the poems in the book, this begins with a quotation from the report \"The Negro In Chicago.\" Here's the quotation. \"On Sunday, July 27, 1919, there was a clash of white people and Negroes at a"}
{"id": "877108426", "date": "2020-06-15", "guest": "Eve Ewing", "title": "Poet Eve Ewing Connects 1919 Chicago To Today's Racial Unrest", "question_index": 16, "text": "Let's get back to the riot of 1919 in Chicago. What happened during the riots?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's also hard for me to read, No. 1 because it's very sad - No. 2 because I am not a singer and I have to sing this poem. So I always get really anxious about it. But you know, I wrote it that way "}
{"id": "877108426", "date": "2020-06-15", "guest": "Eve Ewing", "title": "Poet Eve Ewing Connects 1919 Chicago To Today's Racial Unrest", "question_index": 17, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is poet and sociologist Eve Ewing. Her book of poems is called \"1919.\" Her book about Chicago schools is called \"Ghosts In The Schoolyard: Racism And School Closings On Chicago's South Side.\" We'll talk more after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One of the things that the commission writes about is that there were mass groups of what we would today refer to as gangs, what then were referred to as athletic clubs. These were groups of young whi"}
{"id": "877108426", "date": "2020-06-15", "guest": "Eve Ewing", "title": "Poet Eve Ewing Connects 1919 Chicago To Today's Racial Unrest", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Eve L. Ewing, a poet and sociologist who teaches courses on race and education at the University of Chicago, where she's an assistant professor. Her book of poems, \"1919,\" is a collection of poems reacting to a report written in 1921 by a commission appointed to investigate the 1919 riots in Chicago and come up with recommendations to prevent a recurrence. Her book about the closing of Chicago schools that were deemed under-resourced and underutilized is called \"Ghosts In The Schoolyard: Racism And School Closings On Chicago's South Side.\" So you have a poem written from the perspective of James Crawford, who is a black man who fired into the crowd of black and white officers who were refusing to do anything to stop the rock-throwing, the rock-throwing that forced Eugene Williams to drown. Tell us the story of what happened in the shooting to your knowledge.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One of the things that the commission writes about is that there were mass groups of what we would today refer to as gangs, what then were referred to as athletic clubs. These were groups of young whi"}
{"id": "877108426", "date": "2020-06-15", "guest": "Eve Ewing", "title": "Poet Eve Ewing Connects 1919 Chicago To Today's Racial Unrest", "question_index": 19, "text": "Why did you want to write a poem from his perspective?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, at this point, people were getting agitated, demanding arrest, demanding that something happened. And James Crawford, who we don't really know much else about him. He is a black migran"}
{"id": "877108426", "date": "2020-06-15", "guest": "Eve Ewing", "title": "Poet Eve Ewing Connects 1919 Chicago To Today's Racial Unrest", "question_index": 20, "text": "Would you read it for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm always obsessed with which names we learn and which names we don't learn and why. And there's so much that we will never know about this man. I don't know why he pulled a gun. I don't know if he w"}
{"id": "877108426", "date": "2020-06-15", "guest": "Eve Ewing", "title": "Poet Eve Ewing Connects 1919 Chicago To Today's Racial Unrest", "question_index": 21, "text": "Thanks for reading that, Eve. And that's from Eve Ewing's collection of poems \"1919.\" Tell us more about how the riot of 1919 and reading about what black people from the South faced in the North after the Great Migration, how did that affect your reaction to the killing of George Floyd and the protests that followed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) \"James Crawford Speaks.\" I saw the whites of his eyes before he let go the railroad tie that kept him almost afloat, almost alive, almost able to walk home, almost able to lay out first in t"}
{"id": "877108426", "date": "2020-06-15", "guest": "Eve Ewing", "title": "Poet Eve Ewing Connects 1919 Chicago To Today's Racial Unrest", "question_index": 22, "text": "Is what you're talking about a form of reparations when you talk about the hoarding of wealth?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". That means that we have to talk about wealth hoarding. We have to talk about the accrual of privilege. So that's the part of the conversation that I worry that we never quite get to. And things beco"}
{"id": "877108426", "date": "2020-06-15", "guest": "Eve Ewing", "title": "Poet Eve Ewing Connects 1919 Chicago To Today's Racial Unrest", "question_index": 23, "text": "Well, I want to talk with you about systemic inequality in the schools. But first, we need to take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is poet and sociologist viewing. Her book of poems is called \"1919.\" Her book about Chicago schools is called \"Ghosts In The Schoolyard: Racism And School Closings On Chicago's South Side.\" We'll be back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm absolutely talking about reparations. And I think that reparations can look a lot of different ways. I'm very proud, as a Chicagoan, of the reparations ordinance that was passed here for the victi"}
{"id": "877108426", "date": "2020-06-15", "guest": "Eve Ewing", "title": "Poet Eve Ewing Connects 1919 Chicago To Today's Racial Unrest", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Eve Ewing, a poet and sociologist who teaches courses on race and education at the University of Chicago, where she is an assistant professor. Her book of poems, \"1919,\" is a collection of poems reacting to a report written in 1921 by a commission appointed to investigate the 1919 riots in Chicago and come up with recommendations to prevent a recurrence. Her book about the closing of Chicago schools deemed under-resourced and underutilized is called \"Ghosts In The Schoolyard: Racism And School Closings On Chicago's South Side.\" So Eve, you have a book about racism in Chicago schools. You teach courses on education and racism. I'm wondering if you think one of the next steps after discussing systemic racial inequality in terms of how the police treat Americans, if you think the next step or one of the next steps needs to be addressing systemic inequality in our schools.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm absolutely talking about reparations. And I think that reparations can look a lot of different ways. I'm very proud, as a Chicagoan, of the reparations ordinance that was passed here for the victi"}
{"id": "877108426", "date": "2020-06-15", "guest": "Eve Ewing", "title": "Poet Eve Ewing Connects 1919 Chicago To Today's Racial Unrest", "question_index": 25, "text": "So you taught in a Chicago public school on the South Side from 2011 to 2013. It was a middle school. And it ended up being one of the schools that was closed by Mayor Rahm Emanuel because it was deemed under-resourced and underutilized. You know, these schools had fewer children in them than in the past. And that was, in part, because housing projects were torn down. Housing projects that had been home to a lot of children were no longer there. So the population of children attending the schools was smaller. And so you would think, like, if these schools were under-resourced and underrepresented, why would parents and children be so passionate about saving the schools? There were three days of protests. I think there was a hunger strike by parents for one of the schools that was slated to be closed. And that's a question you try to investigate. If these schools are considered so bad, why are people so passionate about saving them? So tell us a little bit about what you found about why people were so passionate about not wanting to close these schools?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. I think it's a concurrent step. And I think, you know, many people are familiar with the phrase school-to-prison pipeline. But many scholars, including myself, have moved towards describin"}
{"id": "877108426", "date": "2020-06-15", "guest": "Eve Ewing", "title": "Poet Eve Ewing Connects 1919 Chicago To Today's Racial Unrest", "question_index": 26, "text": "And finally, how would you like to see the protest, the insistence that policing has to change, that we have to be aware of systemic racism within policing, how would you like to see that used, now, as a point of departure to just start to think more deeply about inequality in the schools? Like, what - do you see an opportunity here?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Well, you know, one thing that's important to note is that the historical context you just mentioned, which is, you know, the reason why the schools were underutilized, why they have very large "}
{"id": "877108426", "date": "2020-06-15", "guest": "Eve Ewing", "title": "Poet Eve Ewing Connects 1919 Chicago To Today's Racial Unrest", "question_index": 27, "text": "Eve Ewing, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that conversations about police become contentious because policing represents really different things for two different classes of people. One class of people can rely on the police to protec"}
{"id": "877108426", "date": "2020-06-15", "guest": "Eve Ewing", "title": "Poet Eve Ewing Connects 1919 Chicago To Today's Racial Unrest", "question_index": 28, "text": "Eve Ewing is a sociologist who teaches classes on race and education at the University of Chicago School of Social Service Administration, where she's an assistant professor. Her books include \"Ghosts In The Schoolyard: Racism And School Closings On Chicago's South Side\" and the collection of poems, \"1919.\" After we take a short break, John Powers will review the reissue of a novel by Alfred Hayes, who John describes as one of our great writers about social and personal disillusionment. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm overjoyed that I got to speak with you. Thanks, Terry."}
{"id": "877846258", "date": "2020-06-16", "guest": "Diana Greene Foster", "title": "Study Examines The Lasting Effects Of Having \u2014 Or Being Denied \u2014 An Abortion", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. When Mike Pence was running for vice president, he said, if we appoint strict constructionists to the Supreme Court, as Donald Trump intends to do, I believe we will see Roe v. Wade consigned to the ash heap of history where it belongs. Since then, Trump has appointed two conservative justices. The arguments used against abortion often refer to the medical risks of the procedure and the guilt and loss of self-esteem suffered by women who have abortions. In order to explore what the impact of abortion is on women's health and women's lives, my guest, Diana Greene Foster, became the principal investigator of a 10-year study comparing women who had abortions at the end of the deadline allowed by the clinic and those who just missed the deadline and were turned away. The study focuses on the emotional health and socioeconomic outcomes for women who received a wanted abortion and those who were denied one. Her goal is for judges and policymakers to understand what banning abortion would mean for women and children. The results of the study are published in Foster's new book \"The Turnaway Study: Ten Years, A Thousand Women, And The Consequences Of Having - Or Being Denied - An Abortion.\" Turnaway refers to the women who were turned away from having an abortion. Foster is a professor at the University of California, San Francisco in the department of obstetrics, gynecology and reproductive sciences. Diana Greene Foster, welcome to FRESH AIR. Before we get to the results of the study, what impact do you think the pandemic is having on access to abortion?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "877846258", "date": "2020-06-16", "guest": "Diana Greene Foster", "title": "Study Examines The Lasting Effects Of Having \u2014 Or Being Denied \u2014 An Abortion", "question_index": 1, "text": "So why did you want to do this study comparing women who had abortions at the end of the deadline allowed by the clinic and women who just missed the deadline and were turned away?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having me. The pandemic has definitely made abortion a lot harder for women to access in certain states. There were a handful of states that tried to declare that abortion wasn't an esse"}
{"id": "877846258", "date": "2020-06-16", "guest": "Diana Greene Foster", "title": "Study Examines The Lasting Effects Of Having \u2014 Or Being Denied \u2014 An Abortion", "question_index": 2, "text": "You write that anti-abortion activists have shifted the debate from the rights of women versus the rights of fetuses to abortion being a woman's health issue. How are people who are using women's health to frame the issue, how are they using it? What is the argument they're making?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The idea that abortion hurts women has been put forth by people who are opposed to abortion. And it really has resonated. So state governments have imposed restrictions in response to the idea that ab"}
{"id": "877846258", "date": "2020-06-16", "guest": "Diana Greene Foster", "title": "Study Examines The Lasting Effects Of Having \u2014 Or Being Denied \u2014 An Abortion", "question_index": 3, "text": "Give us a sense of how you conducted this 10-year study, how you chose the women, how you got information from them about the consequences of having or not having an abortion.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think, from both sides, there's an emphasis on the danger of abortion. So if you ask most people, they would say abortion is dangerous. And anti-abortion people think that the complications are much"}
{"id": "877846258", "date": "2020-06-16", "guest": "Diana Greene Foster", "title": "Study Examines The Lasting Effects Of Having \u2014 Or Being Denied \u2014 An Abortion", "question_index": 4, "text": "And then you - someone from your team interviewed each of the women how often over the course of the 10 years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So what we did to do this study was we went to 30 abortion facilities across the country who had the latest gestational age within 150 miles. So if you are too late - if you showed up at a clinic too "}
{"id": "877846258", "date": "2020-06-16", "guest": "Diana Greene Foster", "title": "Study Examines The Lasting Effects Of Having \u2014 Or Being Denied \u2014 An Abortion", "question_index": 5, "text": "Your study found that women denied abortion had worse mental health problems - for instance, high levels of anxiety, lower self-esteem - than women who received abortions. Judging from what the women told you in this study, what accounts for that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So we interviewed them one week after they either received or were denied an abortion, and then every six months for five years. And these interviews were not mostly about the abortion or even unwante"}
{"id": "877846258", "date": "2020-06-16", "guest": "Diana Greene Foster", "title": "Study Examines The Lasting Effects Of Having \u2014 Or Being Denied \u2014 An Abortion", "question_index": 6, "text": "What are they about, the big differences?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So we did find that there - an association between abortion and mental health. But it was exactly opposite to what has been said in the popular media. It's not that receiving an abortion was associate"}
{"id": "877846258", "date": "2020-06-16", "guest": "Diana Greene Foster", "title": "Study Examines The Lasting Effects Of Having \u2014 Or Being Denied \u2014 An Abortion", "question_index": 7, "text": "So let me ask you about the financial question because a lot of people would say, well, if you can't afford to have a baby, that's not a good reason not to have the baby. You know, people have babies all the time. You'll find a way to make it work. So when you say that there are financial consequences about being denied an abortion, what are some of those financial consequences, short term and long term?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So when you ask women, why do you want to have an abortion? - they give reasons. The most common is that they can't afford to have a child, or they can't afford to have another child. And we see very "}
{"id": "877846258", "date": "2020-06-16", "guest": "Diana Greene Foster", "title": "Study Examines The Lasting Effects Of Having \u2014 Or Being Denied \u2014 An Abortion", "question_index": 8, "text": "Are you looking at women in the study of a social - of a certain financial status?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There are immediate differences in women's ability to hold a full time job. And their reporting that they have enough money to meet basic living needs, like food, housing and transportation. And I com"}
{"id": "877846258", "date": "2020-06-16", "guest": "Diana Greene Foster", "title": "Study Examines The Lasting Effects Of Having \u2014 Or Being Denied \u2014 An Abortion", "question_index": 9, "text": "And talk a little bit about the economic cost. Why is there an economic cost to being denied an abortion if you're already financially challenged?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, so women who seek abortions nationally are disproportionately low-income And that's - particularly they're low-income if they are seeking abortion later in pregnancy. And why is because it's all"}
{"id": "877846258", "date": "2020-06-16", "guest": "Diana Greene Foster", "title": "Study Examines The Lasting Effects Of Having \u2014 Or Being Denied \u2014 An Abortion", "question_index": 10, "text": "One of the reasons you found many women want to have an abortion is that they don't want to remain tied to the man they got pregnant with. This might be because the man is abusive. It might be that the woman just doesn't want to stay with him. It might be the marriage is already dissolving. Can you talk about that a little bit and why that's such an important issue for the women?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So women who are denied an abortion are less likely to be able to continue working at the same rate. And in addition to not being able to work, they do often get some kind of public assistance, but it"}
{"id": "877846258", "date": "2020-06-16", "guest": "Diana Greene Foster", "title": "Study Examines The Lasting Effects Of Having \u2014 Or Being Denied \u2014 An Abortion", "question_index": 11, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Diana Foster. Her new book is called \"The Turnaway Study: Ten Years, A Thousand Women, And The Consequences Of Having - Or Being Denied - An Abortion.\" We'll talk more after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. The - about a third of women seeking abortions have a reason that's associated with the man involved in the pregnancy. And when we have a woman who tells her story and she's in a violent relatio"}
{"id": "877846258", "date": "2020-06-16", "guest": "Diana Greene Foster", "title": "Study Examines The Lasting Effects Of Having \u2014 Or Being Denied \u2014 An Abortion", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Diana Foster. Her new book, \"The Turnaway Study,\" is about her 10-year study comparing women who had an abortion just before the clinic's deadline and women who arrived just a few days too late and were denied an abortion. The study compares the physical health, mental health, financial circumstances and family life of these two sets of women. I think it's fair to say your biggest finding in your study is - correct me if I'm wrong here - that there's no major consequences that you could find that most women have as a result of an abortion.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. The - about a third of women seeking abortions have a reason that's associated with the man involved in the pregnancy. And when we have a woman who tells her story and she's in a violent relatio"}
{"id": "877846258", "date": "2020-06-16", "guest": "Diana Greene Foster", "title": "Study Examines The Lasting Effects Of Having \u2014 Or Being Denied \u2014 An Abortion", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well, a lot of people ask, well, if you didn't want to have a baby, why didn't you use contraception and prevent yourself from getting pregnant? So for people who ask that question, what are the answers you found in your study?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No negative consequences. We find that 95% of women who receive an abortion later report that it was the right decision for them. So I think it's a surprising fact people assume that women feel regret"}
{"id": "877846258", "date": "2020-06-16", "guest": "Diana Greene Foster", "title": "Study Examines The Lasting Effects Of Having \u2014 Or Being Denied \u2014 An Abortion", "question_index": 14, "text": "So what about women who were turned away from having an abortion and carried the child to term and kept the child? Did they end up, in the long run, being glad they had the child? And was there a difference between the short-term and long-term reaction to having that child?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Many women who have abortions are using contraception. Two-thirds of the women in our study were using a contraceptive method in the month that they became pregnant. And note that not using a co"}
{"id": "877846258", "date": "2020-06-16", "guest": "Diana Greene Foster", "title": "Study Examines The Lasting Effects Of Having \u2014 Or Being Denied \u2014 An Abortion", "question_index": 15, "text": "Let's take another break here and then talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Diana Greene Foster. Her new book is called \"The Turnaway Study: Ten years, A Thousand Women, And The Consequences Of Having - Or Being Denied - An Abortion.\" We'll talk more after a break. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Women who were denied an abortion - at the first interview, just one week later, two-thirds of them were still wishing that they could have an abortion. It goes down to about 12% at six months, down t"}
{"id": "877846258", "date": "2020-06-16", "guest": "Diana Greene Foster", "title": "Study Examines The Lasting Effects Of Having \u2014 Or Being Denied \u2014 An Abortion", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Diana Greene Foster. Her new book, \"The Turnaway Study,\" is about her 10-year study comparing women who had an abortion just before the clinic's deadline and women who arrived just a few days too late and were denied an abortion. The study compares the physical health, mental health, financial circumstances and family life of these two sets of women. Foster is a professor at the University of California, San Francisco in the department of obstetrics, gynecology and reproductive sciences. How would you like to see your research used for policy relating to abortion?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Women who were denied an abortion - at the first interview, just one week later, two-thirds of them were still wishing that they could have an abortion. It goes down to about 12% at six months, down t"}
{"id": "877846258", "date": "2020-06-16", "guest": "Diana Greene Foster", "title": "Study Examines The Lasting Effects Of Having \u2014 Or Being Denied \u2014 An Abortion", "question_index": 17, "text": "A lot of people who oppose abortion oppose it because they equate abortion with murder. And in that respect, no amount of research that you can offer about the consequences of being denied an abortion on a woman's life and even on her child's life or the rest of her family's lives, no amount of that research is going to convince somebody that abortion isn't murder. And in that sense, no amount of research is going to sway those people. Do you feel, in that respect, that your research is kind of futile because a lot of opponents of abortion oppose it because they think of it as murder?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would love, first, to have its policy more broadly, which is much more generous assistance and less punitive assistance for low-income women who have kids regardless of whether their pregnancy was p"}
{"id": "877846258", "date": "2020-06-16", "guest": "Diana Greene Foster", "title": "Study Examines The Lasting Effects Of Having \u2014 Or Being Denied \u2014 An Abortion", "question_index": 18, "text": "Let's get to the Supreme Court. There are now two conservative Trump appointees on the bench. The Supreme Court is expected to hand down a pretty major abortion decision this month. And it pertains to Louisiana and whether doctors performing abortions need to have admitting rights in a nearby hospital. There was a similar case in Texas a few years ago. So tell us about this case and what kind of precedent it would set and what it might tell us about the new Supreme Court and abortion.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I'm under no illusions that this study will change somebody's mind if they think that the embryo or fetus is a person. This study can't resolve the question of when, in pregnancy, the embryo or "}
{"id": "877846258", "date": "2020-06-16", "guest": "Diana Greene Foster", "title": "Study Examines The Lasting Effects Of Having \u2014 Or Being Denied \u2014 An Abortion", "question_index": 19, "text": "What do you think are the odds that the Supreme Court will just overturn Roe v. Wade at some point?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So June Medical Services v. Russo is the case that is about Louisiana's admitting privileges law. It's the same type of restriction that was ruled unconstitutional in Whole Woman's Health v. Hellerste"}
{"id": "877846258", "date": "2020-06-16", "guest": "Diana Greene Foster", "title": "Study Examines The Lasting Effects Of Having \u2014 Or Being Denied \u2014 An Abortion", "question_index": 20, "text": "What are the most significant findings for you from your study that we haven't already discussed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right now, the Supreme Court doesn't have to overturn Roe v. Wade to make it nearly impossible for women to access abortions. Simply by allowing more and more restrictions to be implemented, they can "}
{"id": "877846258", "date": "2020-06-16", "guest": "Diana Greene Foster", "title": "Study Examines The Lasting Effects Of Having \u2014 Or Being Denied \u2014 An Abortion", "question_index": 21, "text": "Let's take a short break here. And then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Diana Foster. Her new book is called \"The Turnaway Study: Ten Years, A Thousand Women, And The Consequences Of Having - Or Being Denied - An Abortion.\" After we take a break, we'll talk about abortions in her family. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the most important idea that I would like to convey is to correct the idea that abortion is always a hard decision and that women need more time to think about it and that they can't be truste"}
{"id": "877846258", "date": "2020-06-16", "guest": "Diana Greene Foster", "title": "Study Examines The Lasting Effects Of Having \u2014 Or Being Denied \u2014 An Abortion", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Diana Greene Foster. Her new book, \"The Turnaway Study,\" is about her 10-year study comparing women who had an abortion just before the clinic's deadline and women who arrived just a few days too late and were therefore denied an abortion. The study compares the physical health, mental health, financial circumstances and family life of these two sets of women. Diana, you had grandmothers on each side of your family that had unwanted pregnancies. One grandmother carried to term. That baby became your mother. The other grandmother had an abortion. So let's talk about that. Let's start with the grandmother on your father's side of the family. Let's start with how she became pregnant and why she didn't want to carry to term.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the most important idea that I would like to convey is to correct the idea that abortion is always a hard decision and that women need more time to think about it and that they can't be truste"}
{"id": "877846258", "date": "2020-06-16", "guest": "Diana Greene Foster", "title": "Study Examines The Lasting Effects Of Having \u2014 Or Being Denied \u2014 An Abortion", "question_index": 23, "text": "Did anyone in your family actually come out and tell you that she had an abortion?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The sad thing is that she died while I was in high school, so I never got to ask her these questions. I know that she became pregnant while she was living with my grandfather early in their marriage i"}
{"id": "877846258", "date": "2020-06-16", "guest": "Diana Greene Foster", "title": "Study Examines The Lasting Effects Of Having \u2014 Or Being Denied \u2014 An Abortion", "question_index": 24, "text": "Well, let's look at your mother's side. Your maternal grandmother, Dorothy (ph), got pregnant at the age of 19 from her golf instructor. The implication in the way you tell the story is that she did not want to have sex with him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I heard it both from my mother and my father. So she must have had a quiet conversation with my mother at some point - is my guess. I doubt - I would be surprised if she directly told my father. It's "}
{"id": "877846258", "date": "2020-06-16", "guest": "Diana Greene Foster", "title": "Study Examines The Lasting Effects Of Having \u2014 Or Being Denied \u2014 An Abortion", "question_index": 25, "text": "And your mother was able to track down her birth mother when your mother was in her mid-40s, and her birth mother, your grandmother, was in her mid-60s. Did you get to meet her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was her funny way of talking. I don't - what she says is that he taught her more than she needed to know. So I don't know how coerced that was. He was married at the time and supposedly in the proc"}
{"id": "877846258", "date": "2020-06-16", "guest": "Diana Greene Foster", "title": "Study Examines The Lasting Effects Of Having \u2014 Or Being Denied \u2014 An Abortion", "question_index": 26, "text": "Oh", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I sure did. A friend of my mom's did the geneology investigation, found Dorothy's birth certificate, which had a note from Dorothy's mom changing the spelling of Dorothy's father's name. And that note"}
{"id": "877846258", "date": "2020-06-16", "guest": "Diana Greene Foster", "title": "Study Examines The Lasting Effects Of Having \u2014 Or Being Denied \u2014 An Abortion", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I sure did. A friend of my mom's did the geneology investigation, found Dorothy's birth certificate, which had a note from Dorothy's mom changing the spelling of Dorothy's father's name. And that note"}
{"id": "877846258", "date": "2020-06-16", "guest": "Diana Greene Foster", "title": "Study Examines The Lasting Effects Of Having \u2014 Or Being Denied \u2014 An Abortion", "question_index": 28, "text": "Oh, what a great story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And we called. I grew up in Maryland. And when I went to college, I went to UC Berkeley in California. And Dorothy, who was living in Santa Cruz, was my closest relative. So she picked me up from th"}
{"id": "877846258", "date": "2020-06-16", "guest": "Diana Greene Foster", "title": "Study Examines The Lasting Effects Of Having \u2014 Or Being Denied \u2014 An Abortion", "question_index": 29, "text": "Well, in your grandmother's case, the pregnancy and the birth were so traumatic, especially being raped afterwards, while she was having a very difficult recovery from childbirth. That's horrible to think about. But she had a decent life. Her life worked out for her, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, she never actually went on to have other children after my mom, and that's something we also find in \"The Turnaway Study\" is that if you carry an unwanted pregnancy to term, it creates a detour "}
{"id": "877846258", "date": "2020-06-16", "guest": "Diana Greene Foster", "title": "Study Examines The Lasting Effects Of Having \u2014 Or Being Denied \u2014 An Abortion", "question_index": 30, "text": "I suspect a lot of our listeners are thinking that if your maternal grandmother had aborted her unwanted pregnancy that your mother wouldn't have been born and, therefore, you wouldn't have been born. So why do you support the right to abortion?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, she was adventurous and ahead of her time in many ways of, you know, owning businesses and traveling. And she, you know, wasn't a feminist in the way that we would say now. She really viewed tha"}
{"id": "877846258", "date": "2020-06-16", "guest": "Diana Greene Foster", "title": "Study Examines The Lasting Effects Of Having \u2014 Or Being Denied \u2014 An Abortion", "question_index": 31, "text": "Well, Diana Foster, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Dorothy refused an abortion and gave birth to my mother. If she'd had an abortion, I clearly wouldn't exist. And my dad's mother overcame great obstacles to get a wanted abortion and later gave birth "}
{"id": "877846258", "date": "2020-06-16", "guest": "Diana Greene Foster", "title": "Study Examines The Lasting Effects Of Having \u2014 Or Being Denied \u2014 An Abortion", "question_index": 32, "text": "Diana Greene Foster is the author of the new book \"The Turnaway Study: Ten Years, A Thousand Women, And The Consequences Of Having - Or Being Denied - An Abortion.\" She's a professor at the University of California, San Francisco in the department of obstetrics, gynecology and reproductive sciences. This month, Turner Classic Movies is presenting a jazz and film series. Our jazz critic Kevin Whitehead has written a new book about jazz and film. After a break, he'll defend the much maligned genre of jazz biopics. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me and discussing \"The Turnaway Study.\""}
{"id": "879953980", "date": "2020-06-18", "guest": "Kristen Howerton", "title": "A Mother Reflects On Privilege, Adoption And Parenting 'Without Perfection'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Race became a central issue in my guest Kristen Howerton's life when she adopted two black children. Howerton is white. She decided to adopt after several miscarriages. First, she adopted a 6-month-old who was in foster care. And later, she adopted an infant from an orphanage in Haiti. But by the time the adoption went through, he was 3 years old. After being told she would never be able to have biological children, she gave birth to two daughters. Her new book, \"Rage Against The Minivan,\" which is also the name of the blog she created several years ago, is about miscarriage, birth, adoption, being the daughter of a pastor and then the wife of a pastor and then leaving the church. And it's about race and what she learned about white privilege. Howerton is a licensed marriage and family therapist. She co-hosts the podcast \"Selfie.\" Kristen Howerton, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "879953980", "date": "2020-06-18", "guest": "Kristen Howerton", "title": "A Mother Reflects On Privilege, Adoption And Parenting 'Without Perfection'", "question_index": 1, "text": "On Twitter, you describe yourself as a skilled catastrophizer. Now that we're actually living with multiple catastrophes - the pandemic, police killings of young black men, economic disaster - how are you doing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thanks for having me."}
{"id": "879953980", "date": "2020-06-18", "guest": "Kristen Howerton", "title": "A Mother Reflects On Privilege, Adoption And Parenting 'Without Perfection'", "question_index": 2, "text": "So let's talk about race. You have two biological white children and two adopted black children. Let's talk about what you've learned as the mother of two white and two black children. Let's start with the adoption. You adopted your first son after having several miscarriages and being told you'd never be able to carry to term. So how did you decide to adopt a black baby from foster care?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We've been assuming that something terrible was lurking around the corner our entire lives. And, you know, once the pandemic happened, it's like, here we go. Here we go. It's interesting. I feel like,"}
{"id": "879953980", "date": "2020-06-18", "guest": "Kristen Howerton", "title": "A Mother Reflects On Privilege, Adoption And Parenting 'Without Perfection'", "question_index": 3, "text": "You write, at first, having a black son was like a badge of pride, a badge of courage, proof that you were a kind and caring person and definitely not a racist, proof that you loved all of God's children. Can you elaborate on that for us, how it made you feel at first to have a black son?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I knew that black children were overrepresented in foster care. And I also knew that black children were more likely to wait for parents. In fact, when we signed up and did our foster care class"}
{"id": "879953980", "date": "2020-06-18", "guest": "Kristen Howerton", "title": "A Mother Reflects On Privilege, Adoption And Parenting 'Without Perfection'", "question_index": 4, "text": "But eventually, having a black son made you realize the optics of your own race for the first time and your understanding of white privilege. How did it help you understand what white privilege means?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, well, first of all, I have to say that it's really cringey (ph) to talk about some of those feelings. But I put them in the book because I wanted to be really honest. I wanted to be real"}
{"id": "879953980", "date": "2020-06-18", "guest": "Kristen Howerton", "title": "A Mother Reflects On Privilege, Adoption And Parenting 'Without Perfection'", "question_index": 5, "text": "You describe an incident where you were hearing noises in your backyard, and you were afraid it was an intruder. You call the police, but then you started to worry - what if the police officer saw your son, one of your sons, and thought he was an intruder because he was black and you're white? Can you run through what your nightmare scenario was there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first of all, I think I had to come to terms with white is a culture and a race, you know, that whiteness has its own set of values, of behaviors, of cultural norms, you know, that we are not ju"}
{"id": "879953980", "date": "2020-06-18", "guest": "Kristen Howerton", "title": "A Mother Reflects On Privilege, Adoption And Parenting 'Without Perfection'", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yeah. When you adopted your second son, you wanted to make sure that the son was black so that your first son would have somebody who looked like him in the family 'cause you're in a white majority neighborhood, and your children go to white majority schools, and you and your husband, your now ex-husband, are white. So was that helpful to your older son to have a brother who was also black?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, to be honest, the worst part of that is that I actually didn't predict that. I didn't have that fear until it was too late. I didn't think it through. And this would be another example"}
{"id": "879953980", "date": "2020-06-18", "guest": "Kristen Howerton", "title": "A Mother Reflects On Privilege, Adoption And Parenting 'Without Perfection'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Kristen Howerton, and her new memoir is called \"Rage Against The Minivan: Learning To Parent Without Perfection.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's been invaluable, and I just instinctively felt that. I mean, I knew when I adopted my first child that I would need to give him a racially matched sibling some way. In fact, when I first "}
{"id": "879953980", "date": "2020-06-18", "guest": "Kristen Howerton", "title": "A Mother Reflects On Privilege, Adoption And Parenting 'Without Perfection'", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Kristen Howerton. Her new memoir, \"Rage Against The Minivan,\" is about being the parent of four children - two white biological daughters and two adopted black sons. So what do you think of transracial adoption now? Have your feelings changed about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's been invaluable, and I just instinctively felt that. I mean, I knew when I adopted my first child that I would need to give him a racially matched sibling some way. In fact, when I first "}
{"id": "879953980", "date": "2020-06-18", "guest": "Kristen Howerton", "title": "A Mother Reflects On Privilege, Adoption And Parenting 'Without Perfection'", "question_index": 9, "text": "When you say you've been involved in the black community because of your sons, what's the nature of the involvement?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I still am a proponent of adoption, but I have a lot of caveats behind that. And I mean, first, I think adoption needs to be ethical, and I think that family preservation needs to be complet"}
{"id": "879953980", "date": "2020-06-18", "guest": "Kristen Howerton", "title": "A Mother Reflects On Privilege, Adoption And Parenting 'Without Perfection'", "question_index": 10, "text": "What kinds of discussions have you been having in your home about race and about the police since the police killing of George Floyd?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, we attended a black church for a season. At present the boys are involved in an organization called 100 Black Men, which is a fantastic mentorship organization. And they meet every oth"}
{"id": "879953980", "date": "2020-06-18", "guest": "Kristen Howerton", "title": "A Mother Reflects On Privilege, Adoption And Parenting 'Without Perfection'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Have you and your children joined the protesters?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's interesting because our conversations haven't changed on that as much because we were already having them. And I think that's probably true for most families with black children. You know, for ei"}
{"id": "879953980", "date": "2020-06-18", "guest": "Kristen Howerton", "title": "A Mother Reflects On Privilege, Adoption And Parenting 'Without Perfection'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here. And then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Kristen Howerton. Her new memoir is called \"Rage Against The Minivan.\" We'll talk more after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. Yeah. And we were involved in protests around Eric Garner. We have been involved in protests for a long time. But yes, we've done several since the murder of George Floyd."}
{"id": "879953980", "date": "2020-06-18", "guest": "Kristen Howerton", "title": "A Mother Reflects On Privilege, Adoption And Parenting 'Without Perfection'", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Kristen Howerton, author of the new memoir \"Rage Against The Minivan.\" It's about miscarriage, birth, adoption, being the daughter of a pastor, then the wife of a pastor, then leaving the church, and it's about race and what she learned about white privilege. Howerton is white and has two biological daughters and two adopted black sons. You worked so hard to adopt your son from Haiti. You thought it would be simple; it was not - it took three years. But in addition to that, in 2010, when you went down to visit him - because during that period, when you couldn't have him home with you yet and the adoption wasn't legal, you'd make a lot of trips down to Haiti to spend time with him. So during a trip like that in 2010, you were there with your baby daughter, and there was an earthquake. It was the big 2010 earthquake. And so you were with both of them at the time. As we've said, you're a catastrophist. You're always waiting for the worst to happen. Wow - it really happened. If you're a catastrophist, you always worry, I think, and when the catastrophe comes, will you be equipped to deal with it? Were you equipped to deal with it? Did instinct work for you or did you just stand there, panicking?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. Yeah. And we were involved in protests around Eric Garner. We have been involved in protests for a long time. But yes, we've done several since the murder of George Floyd."}
{"id": "879953980", "date": "2020-06-18", "guest": "Kristen Howerton", "title": "A Mother Reflects On Privilege, Adoption And Parenting 'Without Perfection'", "question_index": 14, "text": "(Inaudible) Baby daughter had a fever, and you knew you had to get her home. At the same time, your son - who was not officially your son yet - was still living in an orphanage in Haiti. You couldn't take him with you, so you wanted to be there with him during this, you know, horrible and dangerous period. You ended up flying home with the help of the U.S. Embassy. Tell us a little bit about what went through your mind as you had to make that choice - like, what to do and what it was like when you had to leave your soon-to-be son behind.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think a little of both. I did panic a lot, and I was under a lot of anxiety. I do remember once the earthquake hit, and it was - I live in California. You know, earthquakes are a part of our lives h"}
{"id": "879953980", "date": "2020-06-18", "guest": "Kristen Howerton", "title": "A Mother Reflects On Privilege, Adoption And Parenting 'Without Perfection'", "question_index": 15, "text": "You write about how when you were finally able to bring him home and make him your legal son, that, you know, you loved him, he didn't initially love you back, and you had to learn how to keep loving him when it wasn't reciprocated. He missed his friends from Haiti. The orphanage was the only life he knew, and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was devastating. It was absolutely devastating. I mean, to leave him in a country that, you know - and there were growing fears of, you know, people running out of food and, you know, would there b"}
{"id": "879953980", "date": "2020-06-18", "guest": "Kristen Howerton", "title": "A Mother Reflects On Privilege, Adoption And Parenting 'Without Perfection'", "question_index": 16, "text": "...He missed it. And, again, like, you worked so hard to adopt him, and you get him home, and he misses what had been his home. What was that like for you, emotionally?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "879953980", "date": "2020-06-18", "guest": "Kristen Howerton", "title": "A Mother Reflects On Privilege, Adoption And Parenting 'Without Perfection'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Did you expect your boys, at some point, to express gratitude to you for taking your older son from a foster home and giving him a permanent home and a permanent family and your younger son, taking him from an orphanage - who knows what his future would have been in the earthquake - you know, after the earthquake in Haiti? Did you expect gratitude? And did you get it? And do you think it was - if you did expect gratitude, do you think that that was a misguided expectation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was really difficult. I think I had to - it was a constant, everyday battle of reminding myself of where he had been and what he'd been through and not taking it personally because the truth of the"}
{"id": "879953980", "date": "2020-06-18", "guest": "Kristen Howerton", "title": "A Mother Reflects On Privilege, Adoption And Parenting 'Without Perfection'", "question_index": 18, "text": "Have you had friends or even strangers, white people, who were overeager in trying to be allies with you in your decision to adopt black children and to have a multiracial family?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I will tell you, I did not expect gratitude, and I definitely pushed against those narratives because I had done enough reading from adult adoptees. And what I heard, resoundingly, from people with th"}
{"id": "879953980", "date": "2020-06-18", "guest": "Kristen Howerton", "title": "A Mother Reflects On Privilege, Adoption And Parenting 'Without Perfection'", "question_index": 19, "text": "Does the expression colorblind take on new meaning for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Where I've really noticed the overeagerness is friends or teachers really wanting me to understand that their kids don't see race or that other kids don't see race. And so an example of that is - I ca"}
{"id": "879953980", "date": "2020-06-18", "guest": "Kristen Howerton", "title": "A Mother Reflects On Privilege, Adoption And Parenting 'Without Perfection'", "question_index": 20, "text": "I'm going to reintroduce you here because we need to take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Kristen Howerton. Her new memoir is called \"Rage Against The Minivan.\" We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I think I was raised by parents, as many people were, who were proponents of this idea of colorblindness because maybe their parents were actively racist. And so this was an overcorrecti"}
{"id": "879953980", "date": "2020-06-18", "guest": "Kristen Howerton", "title": "A Mother Reflects On Privilege, Adoption And Parenting 'Without Perfection'", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Kristen Howerton. Her new memoir, \"Rage Against The Minivan,\" is about being the parent of four children - two white biological daughters and two adopted black sons. So you married a pastor, and you had children. Your circle of friends was the people from the church.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I think I was raised by parents, as many people were, who were proponents of this idea of colorblindness because maybe their parents were actively racist. And so this was an overcorrecti"}
{"id": "879953980", "date": "2020-06-18", "guest": "Kristen Howerton", "title": "A Mother Reflects On Privilege, Adoption And Parenting 'Without Perfection'", "question_index": 22, "text": "And then you started questioning the church, and part of the questioning was because they - the church didn't support LGBTQ rights, and you did. You questioned the church about racial issues, about other, like, social and political issues. Was your husband at the time questioning those things, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "879953980", "date": "2020-06-18", "guest": "Kristen Howerton", "title": "A Mother Reflects On Privilege, Adoption And Parenting 'Without Perfection'", "question_index": 23, "text": "What was it like for you to be an opponent of your church's point of view before you left that church? I mean, if your whole circle was from the church and if they share the points of view that you were challenging, that left you pretty much alone?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think he was questioning, but I think he didn't have quite the nag that I did. You know, he was questioning, but I just had a personality that just - I wasn't OK with things. And I felt compelled to"}
{"id": "879953980", "date": "2020-06-18", "guest": "Kristen Howerton", "title": "A Mother Reflects On Privilege, Adoption And Parenting 'Without Perfection'", "question_index": 24, "text": "What's your faith life like now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It did. It was a very lonely time because I think when you start to unravel some of these, you know, sacred cows, it feels very unsafe for the people around you. And we're even taught that, you know? "}
{"id": "879953980", "date": "2020-06-18", "guest": "Kristen Howerton", "title": "A Mother Reflects On Privilege, Adoption And Parenting 'Without Perfection'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Kristen Howerton, thank you so much for talking with us. And, you know, be well. And I hope your family stays well.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I think my faith life is - I think I see God as a loving presence who is always available to comfort me. And I think I see Jesus as an example of love. And I think Jesus was for the oppresse"}
{"id": "879953980", "date": "2020-06-18", "guest": "Kristen Howerton", "title": "A Mother Reflects On Privilege, Adoption And Parenting 'Without Perfection'", "question_index": 26, "text": "Kristen Howerton's new memoir is called \"Rage Against The Minivan.\" After we take a short break, David Bianculli will review the new HBO series \"Perry Mason\" starring Matthew Rhys as the character that Raymond Burr played in the classic TV series from the '50s and '60s, but a younger version, before Perry becomes a criminal defense lawyer. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "880242844", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens Sings Slave Narratives", "question_index": 0, "text": "Rhiannon Giddens, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Tell us about the slave narrative that the song we just heard is based on.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Come, Love, come. The road lies low. The way is long and hard, I know. Come, Love, come. The road lies free. I'll wait for you in Tennessee. When I was 4, my loving mam, was cornered by the "}
{"id": "880242844", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens Sings Slave Narratives", "question_index": 1, "text": "What got you into reading slave narratives and thinking you'd base some songs on them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that one in particular is actually kind of based on an amalgam of stories that I was reading just - you know, just sort of the usual - I hesitate to say that word - but the usual experiences of "}
{"id": "880242844", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens Sings Slave Narratives", "question_index": 2, "text": "So you describe your banjo as a minstrel-era banjo, so - a replica of a minstrel-era banjo. So what makes this banjo different than other banjos?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, getting into the banjo and discovering that it was an African American instrument, you know, just - it totally turned on its head my idea of American music and then, through that, American h"}
{"id": "880242844", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens Sings Slave Narratives", "question_index": 3, "text": "It is deep. It's deeper than I'm used to hearing. And the way that you play it - parts of the album are really haunted. I mean, you're talking about slavery. You're talking about death. You're writing songs about, you know, mothers who have to give up their children. So - and your singing has a haunted quality but so does the banjo. And I want you to - and you have your banjo. Maybe you could illustrate this for us to talk about the style that you're playing to get that deep sound and to not have it be this frailing or lively kind of banjo - to have that sad, haunted quality to it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, the original banjos were all handmade instruments. Gourd - it would be made with gourds and whatever, you know, materials would have been around. And, you know, first hundred years of "}
{"id": "880242844", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens Sings Slave Narratives", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Has been left out, you know, for various reasons - as we can get into or not later. But this is the sound that I wanted to be associated with these songs because this is what you would have heard. "}
{"id": "880242844", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens Sings Slave Narratives", "question_index": 5, "text": "I'm going to ask you to perform for us another song that you do on your album \"Freedom Highway.\" And this is called \"The Purchaser's Option,\" and this is based on an ad that you saw, a historical ad for a slave that was going to be sold. So this was the owner taking out an ad.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like, this instrument right here - you know, born in Africa but then made in America and then altered by white America - I mean, that's the story of so much of our music, you know. And it starts here."}
{"id": "880242844", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens Sings Slave Narratives", "question_index": 6, "text": "So the purchaser's option in this context meant that if you buy this woman who's a slave, you have the option of buying or not buying her baby along with her.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't have to worry about them being sold away from me or taken away, you know. How do you make it through that?"}
{"id": "880242844", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens Sings Slave Narratives", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. That's right."}
{"id": "880242844", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens Sings Slave Narratives", "question_index": 8, "text": "Can I ask you to sing it for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's just - it gives me the creeps just even talking about it now, even though I, you know, I've been singing this song now ever since, but..."}
{"id": "880242844", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens Sings Slave Narratives", "question_index": 9, "text": "Thank you for doing that. That song is really chilling.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. (Singing) I've got a babe, but shall I keep him? Twill (ph) come the day when I'll be weeping. But how can I love him any less, this little babe upon my breast? You can take my body. You can tak"}
{"id": "880242844", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens Sings Slave Narratives", "question_index": 10, "text": "I'm wondering if there are any slave stories that have been passed on through the generations in your family, stories that you heard told or that you asked about and find - found out the answers to.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview with Rhiannon Giddens, a founding member of The Carolina Chocolate Drops, which plays string-band music in the African American tradition. Gidden"}
{"id": "880242844", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens Sings Slave Narratives", "question_index": 11, "text": "How did the meaning of that story change for you over the years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "in any interviews or anything, so it's interesting that you ask."}
{"id": "880242844", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens Sings Slave Narratives", "question_index": 12, "text": "Rhiannon, you know, another thing about this album is it takes it up to the present. It takes it up to a song that's really as far as - at least it sounds this way to me is a song about, you know, all the young African American men who have been shot without cause by police. And, you know, young men for whom like, just one misinterpreted gesture can land you in jail or in the grave. The song was called \"Better Get It Right The First Time.\" Can you tell us about the song and writing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I hadn't really thought about it, to be honest. I've been digging into slavery and digging into the Civil War and digging in all this music, and I hadn't really thought about that story, which is so f"}
{"id": "880242844", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens Sings Slave Narratives", "question_index": 13, "text": "So let's hear it. This is Rhiannon Giddens and her nephew, Justin Harrington, from Rhiannon Giddens' new album, \"Freedom Highway.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It kind of has its roots in a couple - a couple of different things and one is that, you know, I have a 19-year-old nephew who has been really struggling with this. So we've had these conversati"}
{"id": "880242844", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens Sings Slave Narratives", "question_index": 14, "text": "That's \"Better Get It Right The First Time\" from Rhiannon Giddens' new album, \"Freedom Highway.\" And that was her nephew, Justin Harrington, doing the rap. So was this song or what your nephew raps on the song related to any specific incident?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) We've done seen it on the daily, reposting obituary pages, losing beloveds, they want to change the subject. It's nothing new for the blue. Is it the who or the hue? It's kids watching their"}
{"id": "880242844", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens Sings Slave Narratives", "question_index": 15, "text": "Singer and songwriter Rhiannon Giddens visited FRESH AIR in 2017 when her solo album \"Freedom Highway\" was released. After a break, we'll hear more of her conversation with Terry Gross and more of her music. We'll also visit with another singer, Bernice Johnson Reagon, who was part of The Freedom Singers during the civil rights movement. I'm David Bianculli, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The story is really just one of many, and my nephew had written this last year. And we were recently in Dallas with this show, and it was just the most unbelievable thing. The exact thing that he raps"}
{"id": "880242844", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens Sings Slave Narratives", "question_index": 16, "text": "RHIANNON", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The story is really just one of many, and my nephew had written this last year. And we were recently in Dallas with this show, and it was just the most unbelievable thing. The exact thing that he raps"}
{"id": "880242844", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens Sings Slave Narratives", "question_index": 17, "text": "So I want to talk with you about your life, and I want to quote something that you've said, which is I am a daughter of the South of the white working class, of the black working class, of the Democrats and the Republicans, of the gay and the straight. Is that all literally true?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross. Today, we're listening to an interview Terry recorded in 2017 with singer and musician Rhiannon Giddens. She's a founding member of The Caro"}
{"id": "880242844", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens Sings Slave Narratives", "question_index": 18, "text": "So - yeah. Let's go through it", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. My..."}
{"id": "880242844", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens Sings Slave Narratives", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. My..."}
{"id": "880242844", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens Sings Slave Narratives", "question_index": 20, "text": "By us you mean the black side out of your family.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. I mean, I ended up moving to Greensboro, but I spent the first part of my life with my grandparents out in the country. So my mom's folks are from one side of Greensboro - and, you know, outside"}
{"id": "880242844", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens Sings Slave Narratives", "question_index": 21, "text": "Right", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "880242844", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens Sings Slave Narratives", "question_index": 22, "text": ". Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "880242844", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens Sings Slave Narratives", "question_index": 23, "text": "They couldn't get married in Greensboro?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The colored girls, yes - me and my sister. And I think - I find the story really beautiful because the fact that my parents came together in Greensboro - they went to, you know, college and found each"}
{"id": "880242844", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens Sings Slave Narratives", "question_index": 24, "text": "Three years after...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. That's what I was told. Like, they had to go to Winston to get married. I mean, this is three years after love - the Loving decision they got married."}
{"id": "880242844", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens Sings Slave Narratives", "question_index": 25, "text": "...The Supreme Court decision made it that outlawed all of the anti-miscegenation laws...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "After - yeah..."}
{"id": "880242844", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens Sings Slave Narratives", "question_index": 26, "text": "...The laws that made it impossible, like, illegal for black and a white person to marry. ****", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "880242844", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens Sings Slave Narratives", "question_index": 27, "text": "And it's not just to marry. That's amazing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean..."}
{"id": "880242844", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens Sings Slave Narratives", "question_index": 28, "text": "So, you know, in terms of that identity statement that I read, the part about that you're the daughter of the gay and the straight?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it just blows my mind to think about that, to think that three years before they got married, it wouldn't have been legal. I mean, that just - it blows my mind, you know?"}
{"id": "880242844", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens Sings Slave Narratives", "question_index": 29, "text": "How old were you when she came out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. My mom - she is a - she's a - she has had a partner for many years, my other mom. And - I got a lot of moms. And they recently got married in North Carolina, now that it's legal, hopefully will "}
{"id": "880242844", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens Sings Slave Narratives", "question_index": 30, "text": "So you were still a child.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know what I mean?"}
{"id": "880242844", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens Sings Slave Narratives", "question_index": 31, "text": "Now, your father sang, right - or sings?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I was still a child, but I was just like - it didn't mean anything to me other than just that was who she was, you know?"}
{"id": "880242844", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens Sings Slave Narratives", "question_index": 32, "text": "So you studied opera, in spite of the fact that your music is, you know, out of various folk traditions and also country music and some gospel you've sung, but you went to Oberlin and studied opera there. Given that's not the direction you ended up taking, why did you decide to study opera?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're listening to Terry's 2017 interview with Rhiannon Giddens. She plays banjo and violin and at the time has just released her solo album, \"Freedom Highway.\""}
{"id": "880242844", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens Sings Slave Narratives", "question_index": 33, "text": "Is there an excerpt, a very brief excerpt of an opera - of an aria that you can sing for us that you learned in your Oberlin days?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I decided to study music my last year in high school. And I didn't really know much about opera. I just - I had one CD, a compilation CD that I loved. And I knew that they didn't speak on stage. And I"}
{"id": "880242844", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens Sings Slave Narratives", "question_index": 34, "text": "And what is it about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would love to do - it's not an aria but this art song that I just think is beautiful. It's called \"Morgen\" by Strauss. And to me, it's like one of the most perfect pieces of music."}
{"id": "880242844", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens Sings Slave Narratives", "question_index": 35, "text": "That's great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The translation of what I'm going to sing is - and tomorrow the sun will shine again, and on the way I will go, she will again unite us, the happy ones, amidst the sun-breathing Earth. It's just about"}
{"id": "880242844", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens Sings Slave Narratives", "question_index": 36, "text": "Your voice is so beautiful. Technically, what's the difference between your opera voice and your other voice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's so cool. And when you hear the piano, it's just so gorgeous. It's probably not a good example, but it just - it's just - it's in my brain right now, so..."}
{"id": "880242844", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens Sings Slave Narratives", "question_index": 37, "text": "Right. And that second song was \"Underneath The Harlem Moon,\" which Ethel Waters made famous.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's - it really - I don't - it's interesting. It's like I'm placing it in a different part of my head. You know, so when I'm singing, you know, (vocalizing), all up here, you know. But then if I'm, y"}
{"id": "880242844", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens Sings Slave Narratives", "question_index": 38, "text": "And that was more kind of like folk and Appalachian.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yes, and made changes to, yeah. And we do her version, you know, the words that she added to that song but yeah. And, you know, and then when you're doing, you know - (singing) when I first come"}
{"id": "880242844", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens Sings Slave Narratives", "question_index": 39, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Kind of Appalachian."}
{"id": "880242844", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens Sings Slave Narratives", "question_index": 40, "text": "Yeah. And thank you for illustrating that. One of the slave narrative songs on your new album \"Freedom Highway\" is called \"Julie.\" It's a dialogue between a slave and the woman who owns her. And the woman who owns her is afraid that Julie, the slave, is going to run off with the Union soldiers when they come. And they're close. And they're coming closer. And she's - so the slave owner's trying to convince Julie to, like, ***************", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So there's - they all have a different place they live. It's kind of interesting."}
{"id": "880242844", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens Sings Slave Narratives", "question_index": 41, "text": "stay. So I'm going to ask you to sing the ending of the song, but can you tell us more of the story leading up to the end so that we get what's happening?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So there's - they all have a different place they live. It's kind of interesting."}
{"id": "880242844", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens Sings Slave Narratives", "question_index": 42, "text": "I should mention that that song that Rhiannon Giddens just did an excerpt of, \"Julie,\" a song she wrote, is on her new album, \"Freedom Highway.\" Rhiannon Giddens, it's just been wonderful to talk with you. Thank you so much for singing for us, and I really love the new album, so thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So back then, a lot of times, plantation owners would try to hide the wealth of the plantation in slave cabins, you know, and with the enslaved people. And I have to say, I'm finding a lot of st"}
{"id": "880245261", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "The Freedom Singers", "title": "Bernice Johnson Reagon On Leading Freedom Songs During The Civil Rights Movement", "question_index": 0, "text": "We call the songs that you sang freedom songs, but some of them were spiritual. Some of them were old all slave songs, too, weren't they? I mean, how did...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Albany, Ga., was a singing movement. And when the news reporters began to come down - they came down in December '62 as a result of King being arrested. I was already in jail, so I missed most of that"}
{"id": "880245261", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "The Freedom Singers", "title": "Bernice Johnson Reagon On Leading Freedom Songs During The Civil Rights Movement", "question_index": 1, "text": "Well, you created some new songs and changed some of the words to traditional songs. What was the first song you did That with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"This Little Light Of Mine,\" \"We Shall Not Be Moved,\" \"We Shall Overcome.\" All of those songs were church songs. But they got new meaning as a part of the civil rights movement. Added to that were new"}
{"id": "880245261", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "The Freedom Singers", "title": "Bernice Johnson Reagon On Leading Freedom Songs During The Civil Rights Movement", "question_index": 2, "text": "You know, you must have also really had to know what song to sing under which circumstances 'cause there were times, probably, you needed to sing a song to help organize people. Other times, you needed to sing a song to help people find their courage, to stand up to what was about to happen. Did you intuitively have a sense of what song to do when?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Oh, Freedom.\" Over my head, I see freedom in the air. That was the first demonstration in Albany, Ga. And we had never walked in that kind of line in the city of Albany in its history. And we circled"}
{"id": "880245261", "date": "2020-06-19", "guest": "The Freedom Singers", "title": "Bernice Johnson Reagon On Leading Freedom Songs During The Civil Rights Movement", "question_index": 3, "text": "Was there a time when you were with The Freedom Singers - an example of a time where you sang a certain song, and it really kind of changed the mood or brought the mood to the next level?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The song that you're supposed to sing that suits the occasion comes up in you if you're in the occasion. Yourself so you don't have to make a list if you yourself are part of what's happening. The son"}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Christine Baranski, stars in \"The Good Fight,\" a legal drama streaming on CBS All Access that recently concluded its fourth season. We actually recorded this a few weeks ago, shortly before the police killing of George Floyd and the widespread protests. We postponed broadcasting several interviews, including this one, so that we could talk about the killing, the protests, policing and systemic racial inequality. But we really enjoyed this interview and hope that you do, too. Christine Baranski's character in \"The Good Fight\" is Diane Lockhart, who was spun off from the series \"The Good Wife.\" Both series were created by Robert and Michelle King. Diane is a progressive, smart litigator who's a partner in a law firm. The first episode of the first season of \"The Good Fight\" opened with Donald Trump being sworn in as president, a grave disappointment for Diane, who had planned on celebrating the election of the first woman president. The first episode of the latest season opened with Diane waking up in an alternate reality where Hillary Clinton was president. \"The Good Fight\" frequently incorporates stories that have become part of the national conversation, like white supremacy, police assaults on Black men, the alleged Trump golden shower tape, powerful men who are accused of sexual assault and an attorney general who is criticized for bending the rules to benefit his allies. Christine Baranski started her career in theater and went on to co-star in the TV series \"Cybill\" and \"The Big Bang Theory\" and films including \"Reversal Of Fortune\" and \"The Birdcage.\" She's been in several stage and film musicals, including \"Chicago,\" \"Mame\" and several by Sondheim, including \"Into The Woods,\" \"Follies\" and \"Sweeney Todd.\" Let's start with a scene from \"The Good Fight.\" When the series began, Diane announced her retirement from her position as a partner in a high-powered corporate law firm. But her retirement plans were ruined after she lost her savings, which were invested in what turned out to be a Bernie Madoff-like Ponzi scheme. She winds up becoming a partner at a majority-African American firm. Later in the series, that firm is bought out by a much larger multinational firm. In this scene, she's talking with a senior partner of the larger firm, describing how powerful men are behaving like they're above the law in cases that she's arguing in court. John Larroquette plays the partner.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Christine Baranski, welcome to FRESH AIR. Thank you so much for being here.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Diane Lockhart) Understood."}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 2, "text": "You know, a lot of the shows you've done, you know, are comedies, and they're social comedies. But there's a lot of political material in this. Is the feedback that you get from viewers different because of all of the politically related storylines in it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 3, "text": "You know, the show has tried so hard to be in the moment and topical, but it could not have foreseen the pandemic. And the season had to end early, right? Didn't you have to stop production because of the pandemic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. The show was not conceived to be a show about life in the Trump era. It just so happened that on election night, we were shooting the pilot. And it's a well-known story by now that Robert "}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 4, "text": "So many of your roles in the past on TV and on Broadway were kind of wise-cracking, cynical, slightly alcoholic women.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Indeed, we did. And as I'm listening to this scene that you just played between myself and John Larroquette, it's chilling to hear those words because those words were written before the Michael Flynn"}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 5, "text": "And, you know, there's comedic elements in \"The Good Fight.\" But your role - I mean, your character - she's got biting sarcasm when she needs it, but she's not a kind of snarky, cynical, comic character. There's a lot of just, you know, real drama there. Do you think that your voice changes when you're doing a comedic role versus a more dramatic role?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Indeed, we did. And as I'm listening to this scene that you just played between myself and John Larroquette, it's chilling to hear those words because those words were written before the Michael Flynn"}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 6, "text": "Audra McDonald co-stars on \"The Good Fight.\" And, of course, she's done a lot of music theater. You and Audra McDonald and Meryl Streep did a song together for the Stephen Sondheim 90th birthday tribute, which was streamed on TV because this was during the pandemic, so everybody basically recorded in their homes. Was this your idea to bring the three of you together? You'd work with Meryl Streep in \"Mamma Mia?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What an interesting question. I think I had to find the voice of Diane during my years of \"The Good Wife\" because I was - I had done so much comedy. And my real challenge with playing Diane was assumi"}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Well, let's hear how it came out. We'll hear the stanza that you opened with, and then we'll hear a little bit of Meryl Streep coming in right after. So this is - my guest Christine Baranski starts off the song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was. Audra and Meryl and I have all worked with Steve. We adore him. And a year ago, we took him out to dinner, and we vowed that we would do it again. When he turned 90, I emailed him to say, Stev"}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 8, "text": "So that was Christine Baranski with a little bit of Meryl Streep, and the percussion you hear with Meryl Streep is her - at least part of the percussion is her shaking the cocktail shaker?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Here's to the girls who stay smart. Aren't they a gas? Rushing to their classes in optical art, wishing..."}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Because all the ladies in this are drinking", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Christine Baranski. She stars in the series \"The Good Fight.\" Season 4 just concluded. All four seasons are now streaming on CBS All Access. We'll talk more after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We each chose our choice of alcohol. So mine was red wine, and then it cuts to Meryl shaking a martini, and then Audra has a tumbler of whiskey."}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Christine Baranski. She stars in the series \"The Good Fight,\" playing a partner in a law firm. It's a spinoff of \"The Good Wife.\" She's also known for comedic roles on stage and screen and for being in stage and screen musicals, including \"Into The Woods,\" \"Chicago\" and \"Mame.\" Like, Stephen Sondheim is such a brilliant composer, but the intervals he writes in songs are sometimes, like, just - they're not typical. They are not the typical resolutions. They're not the typical melody lines. And it always strikes me as a nonsinger that they must be more complicated to learn because they're unusual. So what do you think? Are they...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We each chose our choice of alcohol. So mine was red wine, and then it cuts to Meryl shaking a martini, and then Audra has a tumbler of whiskey."}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 13, "text": "When you're learning a new Sondheim song, what do you do to get it into your head so that you know exactly where to go, melodically?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I think that's the best place to be as an artist. But I've had the pleasure and privilege of doing at least eight Sondheim musicals - unfortunately, never an original Broadway production. My first"}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Would you illustrate for us the point that I was trying to make that Stephen Sondheim writes very wonderful but very unusual melodies, that the voice doesn't necessarily automatically know what to do because they're not typical, like, resolutions. Is there a - can you sing a line that you had trouble learning, it's so interesting but challenging?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't read music. I took a solfege class years ago, but I didn't study it long enough to really have it stick. So when I did \"Sweeney Todd\" at the Kennedy Center, that was a full production, a"}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 15, "text": "You know, you said that learning Sondheim songs, there's an element of terror. Is part of the terror knowing that he's going to hear you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let me see if I can - \"Every Day A Little Death\" is a really odd song from \"A Little Night Music.\" Not odd song, but those intervals - (singing) every day, a little death in the parlor, in the bed, in"}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Absolutely."}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Did he give you any good advice on singing his songs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes. And you know he'll hear every note that's wrong. But I will say this because people are so terrified of his, you know, showing up and watching a dress rehearsal, whatever. I have come to kno"}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 18, "text": "That must've been good for you to hear because you're known...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, he did. He wants the truth of the character. Steve is really not into beautiful sounds. He says, don't make it beautiful. Don't feel you have to sing the song beautifully. Yes, he cares about the"}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 19, "text": "...As an actor, not as a singer even though you've been in a whole bunch of musicals. So it meant that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 20, "text": "...Like, acting the part was what was really important, not just having, like, a gorgeous voice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Well, I think all of the great Sondheim performers - Angela Lansbury, Len Cariou - name them, they're all great actors as well."}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 22, "text": "My guest is Christine Baranski. She's now starring in \"The Good Fight.\" Season 4 recently concluded. All four seasons are now streaming on CBS All Access. We'll talk more after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He wants actors who can sing. He doesn't want strictly singers. He doesn't want just to hear, you know, \"Losing My Mind\" beautifully sung. When you hear Barbara Cook sing \"Losing My Mind,\" it's so fil"}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Christine Baranski. She stars in \"The Good Fight,\" which recently ended its fourth season. All four seasons are now streaming on CBS All Access. She got her start in theater, won an Emmy for her first big TV role in the series \"Cybill\" as Cybill Shepherd's best friend and was nominated for her recurring role in \"The Big Bang Theory.\" She's also performed in stage and movie musicals, including \"Into The Woods,\" \"Chicago,\" \"Mamma Mia!\" and \"Follies.\" So you mentioned you took singing lessons to prepare for musicals. What did you learn about your voice through singing lessons? And I don't even mean just your singing voice, but just your voice in general.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He wants actors who can sing. He doesn't want strictly singers. He doesn't want just to hear, you know, \"Losing My Mind\" beautifully sung. When you hear Barbara Cook sing \"Losing My Mind,\" it's so fil"}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Isn't it interesting that you didn't know that you had that vocal range until...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ah, my voice. You know, I went to - I studied acting at the Juilliard School, and we didn't have a single class for musical comedy. So I never trained my voice at Juilliard. And then I was always extr"}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 25, "text": "... A teacher showed you that you had it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did not."}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 26, "text": "You know how you were saying that singing made you feel very vulnerable? And I think that's true for a lot of people.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "that's a great - it was pretty gutsy of me to do it. But I had The New York Pops orchestra, and Skitch Henderson was the conductor, and he let me do it. And I sang a Debussy song called \"Beau Soir,\" w"}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 27, "text": "There's something about singing. What is it about singing? I know you were mocked by the nun. Not a good idea", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So many people."}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 28, "text": "for...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So many people."}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 29, "text": "To mock a child for singing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No, it really..."}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 30, "text": "But why do we feel so vulnerable when we sing when we're not real singers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 31, "text": "Though you are a real singer, so I should take you out of that. But still...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It might have to do with the fact that..."}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 32, "text": "You were in the film \"Mamma Mia!\" and its sequel. And in addition to singing in that and, you know, of course, doing comedic acting, you have a dance scene on the beach, where you're not only dancing, but, like, you're getting lifted by men", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I would - thank you. I wish I did more singing so I could consider myself a real singer. But whenever I do have to sing, I take it very seriously and start training. And it's a very good questio"}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 33, "text": "by male dancers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I would - thank you. I wish I did more singing so I could consider myself a real singer. But whenever I do have to sing, I take it very seriously and start training. And it's a very good questio"}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 34, "text": "And I don't know how much, like, dance you've studied over the years. But I always wonder what it feels like to, you know, be lifted, like, in one of those dance lifts. And then, you know, like, you're, like, moving your legs in, like, a graceful way. And it always feels like - I hate being picked up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 35, "text": "So, like, tell me what it feels like to do that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 36, "text": "...And to learn how to be, like, graceful when somebody's, like, you know, holding you up in the air like that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know what? If you were on..."}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 37, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Christine Baranski. She stars in the series \"The Good Fight.\" Season Four recently concluded. All four seasons are now streaming on CBS All Access. We'll talk more after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think if you were on a beach in Greece and there were a lot of really hot young men, you might get used to it. You might find yourself enjoying being lifted up. Let me just say this. I started"}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 38, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Christine Baranski, who now stars in \"The Good Fight\" playing a partner in a law firm. It's a spinoff of \"The Good Wife.\" She's also known for her comedic roles on stage and screen and for being in movies and for being in stage and screen musicals, including \"Into The Woods,\" \"Sweeney Todd,\" \"Chicago\" and \"Mame.\" Your grandmother, if I have this right, was an actress or just a devotee of music theater?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think if you were on a beach in Greece and there were a lot of really hot young men, you might get used to it. You might find yourself enjoying being lifted up. Let me just say this. I started"}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 39, "text": "Well - and also the idea that you could actually become an actress because you shared a bedroom with one.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. My grandparents - both of my paternal grandparents were actors in the Polish theater. I grew up in a suburb of Buffalo, Cheektowaga, but they - there was a very active Polish community and theater"}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 40, "text": "Do you know what brought your grandparents to America?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And she was very theatrical, and she had very theatrical friends. They would come over and just - I could hear them. You know, we would be put to bed, my brother and I, but Nana (ph) was in the livi"}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 41, "text": "So your grandmother spoke Polish even though...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My grandmother was born in America. My grandfather who came over from Poland after World War I, but Nana was already here, I think. And my other grandparents were born in America. So it was several ge"}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 42, "text": "So you grew up in Cheektowaga, which is a suburb of Buffalo. Is it fair to say it was a kind of industrial suburb of Buffalo?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I was raised in a bilingual household. I heard Polish spoken. In fact, my brother only spoke Polish until the time he went to school. And then he had to sort of catch up. So then my parents didn"}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 43, "text": "So you got a scholarship at Juilliard. And the way I've read it reported in the press is that you got a thousand-dollar scholarship because you were the most hardworking, economically needy student. Did they literally say that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there were some factories, but it wasn't - it was very much on the outskirts of Buffalo but, no, not that far in the suburbs. I was within walking distance of my church and my schools. And I, yo"}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 44, "text": "Did you feel just a little bit guilty taking the money that was meant for you - to enable you to attend Juilliard and, instead, traveling to - what? - France?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 45, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I traveled to London. Then I went and took the ferry to Paris. And then I traveled through the Alps to Switzerland, and then to Italy, and then to Greece. And I didn't feel any guilt whatsoever..."}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 46, "text": "I read that you were assaulted as a student when you were living with a family in New York attending Juilliard. How did that inform - I think, goes by a man, a young man, I don't know. But how did that affect you in terms...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Because it was one of the greatest things I've ever done. To this day, I will tell you that it was one of the greatest things I've ever done and one of the gutsiest because I was a young woman alon"}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 47, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it was a..."}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 48, "text": "Did you have a lock on your bedroom door?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a live-in situation. I was living with a family. And in exchange for room and board, I watched the young child. I slept in the baby's bedroom. And I had to be home every night at 11. And then t"}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 49, "text": "Was it traumatizing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I didn't. But there was a wooden screen. And I remember putting a wooden screen in front of the door. And I did live in fear. I did live in fear that it would happen again. It never did, though."}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 50, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Christine Baranski. And she stars in the series \"The Good Fight.\" Season 4 recently concluded. All four seasons are now streaming on CBS All Access. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess it was, Terry. But I don't remember it affecting my life in an adverse way. I was a passionate acting student, and nothing was going to stop me. And if anything, it just made me more wary, mor"}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 51, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Christine Baranski, who now stars in \"The Good Fight,\" playing a partner in a law firm. It's, of course, a spinoff of \"The Good Wife.\" She's also known for her comedic roles onstage and screen and for being in stage and screen musicals, including \"Into The Woods,\" \"Sweeney Todd,\" \"Chicago\" and \"Mame.\" When you started doing TV work on the show \"Cybill\" starring Cybill Shepherd - and you were her, like, best friend, cynical, wise-cracking - your family was still on the East Coast. And you were basically, like, commuting to Hollywood to shoot it. You were already a mother, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess it was, Terry. But I don't remember it affecting my life in an adverse way. I was a passionate acting student, and nothing was going to stop me. And if anything, it just made me more wary, mor"}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 52, "text": "How old were they?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I had resisted doing television for years, which is why I spent so so many years in the theater. I was already in my 40s when I was offered \"Cybill.\" And then, it was a question of, you know, it'"}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 53, "text": "Were...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were - let's see - 6 or 7, 8 and 9. They were going into middle school. So they weren't really little, and they weren't teenagers because, by the time they get to their teen years, you also need "}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 54, "text": "Yeah, it sure did.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But it opened up my career."}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 55, "text": "Yeah. And you won an Emmy, too. Were your children angry with you for not being there all the time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It really opened up my career."}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 56, "text": "Yeah. Well, right now you're living with one of your daughters during the pandemic...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think we coped very well, but even now I feel like I try to make it up to my kids that I wasn't there. It's a source of pain for me that I wasn't there. And they missed me, and I missed them. "}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 57, "text": "...And your three grandchildren, her three children.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 58, "text": "Yeah, exactly", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I'm making up for all the lost years now."}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 59, "text": "Exactly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I'm making up for all the lost years now."}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 60, "text": "Yeah. So how are you dealing with pandemic anxiety now? I know the home that you're in, your daughter's home, is in the country. So I don't know how many people you're actually being exposed to.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm just right in the trenches here."}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 61, "text": "Oh, they're with - oh, I didn't realize they're with you in your home.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm here in my home, and they're with me. They live in..."}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 62, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, they live in New York."}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 63, "text": "Well, Christine Baranski, it's been wonderful to talk with you. Thank you so much. I wish you and your family good health and sanity during this crazy time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I think I've been curiously blessed to be with them."}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 64, "text": "Christine Baranski spoke to us from her home in Connecticut. She stars in the series \"The Good Fight.\" Season 4 recently concluded. All four seasons are now streaming on CBS All Access. Our interview was recorded May 27. If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed - like our interview with Nikole Hannah-Jones, who created The New York Times' 1619 Project about the history and legacy of slavery and has a new article in The Times magazine about why it's time for a national conversation about reparations; or our interview with psychiatrist Julie Holland about the use of hallucinogenics (ph) in therapeutic settings to treat mental health issues; or our interview with Susan Burton, whose new memoir is about her eating disorder - check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wish you the same. And thank you for your questions. They were very deep, and I was glad to rethink about a lot of what you brought up."}
{"id": "883269587", "date": "2020-06-25", "guest": "Christine Baranski", "title": "Christine Baranski On Putting Up A 'Good Fight' During 'This Dystopian Era'", "question_index": 65, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering from Mike Villers. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Joel Wolfram. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wish you the same. And thank you for your questions. They were very deep, and I was glad to rethink about a lot of what you brought up."}
{"id": "883899902", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Cleve Jones", "title": "LGBTQ Activist Cleve Jones: 'I'm Well Aware How Fragile Life Is'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Cleve Jones, welcome to FRESH AIR. Remind us of what the penalties were for having a consensual sexual relationship with somebody of the same gender when you were a teenager, knowing that you were gay. And we're talking about the 1960s.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, editor of the website TV Worth Watching, sitting in for Terry Gross. Today, as Pride Month comes to a close, our first guest is longtime LGBTQ activist Cleve Jo"}
{"id": "883899902", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Cleve Jones", "title": "LGBTQ Activist Cleve Jones: 'I'm Well Aware How Fragile Life Is'", "question_index": 1, "text": "So when you realized - when you knew that you were gay, were you afraid that someday you would be arrested?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The penalties for homosexual conduct were - would vary from state to state, but they were - it was a felony in most states, punishable with prison terms of varying lengths."}
{"id": "883899902", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Cleve Jones", "title": "LGBTQ Activist Cleve Jones: 'I'm Well Aware How Fragile Life Is'", "question_index": 2, "text": "And were a lot of people imprisoned for gay relationships back then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. When I began to understand what the words meant that were being tossed my way, I went to my father's library - he was a psychologist - and looked it up. And, you know, it was pretty horrifying fo"}
{"id": "883899902", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Cleve Jones", "title": "LGBTQ Activist Cleve Jones: 'I'm Well Aware How Fragile Life Is'", "question_index": 3, "text": "So you were afraid to tell your parents that you were gay in part because your father is a psychologist; you were afraid that he'd sign you up against your will for aversion therapy or electroshock therapy. How seriously did you worry about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, even in my town, even in San Francisco, thousands of gay men were arrested, usually using entrapment techniques, every single year for sexual behavior between consenting adults. That continu"}
{"id": "883899902", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Cleve Jones", "title": "LGBTQ Activist Cleve Jones: 'I'm Well Aware How Fragile Life Is'", "question_index": 4, "text": "And you write that you were hoarding pills. You - it sounds like you had a suicide plan just in case. What was the just-in-case?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was very concerned about it. And I delayed telling my parents until I was 18 so that they would no longer have the legal right to have me committed and be subjected to these procedures that ar"}
{"id": "883899902", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Cleve Jones", "title": "LGBTQ Activist Cleve Jones: 'I'm Well Aware How Fragile Life Is'", "question_index": 5, "text": "So you found out that there was, like, a gay movement through being a Quaker. You and your mother went to Quaker meetings. She went to Quaker meetings because she wanted to be a Quaker so you'd have a reason to avoid the draft. This was during the Vietnam War. But - so how did going to Quaker meetings lead to your discovery of the gay rights movement?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I felt that my life was over before it even really began because it just seemed then that there was no way to have a decent life and to be gay. So I was terrified that I was going to be caught. "}
{"id": "883899902", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Cleve Jones", "title": "LGBTQ Activist Cleve Jones: 'I'm Well Aware How Fragile Life Is'", "question_index": 6, "text": "So you met Harvey Milk. He became a mentor to you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Quakers were very welcoming. And even back then, I think they were performing commitment ceremonies for same-sex couples. But, really, the big news for me came not at Quaker meeting but through Li"}
{"id": "883899902", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Cleve Jones", "title": "LGBTQ Activist Cleve Jones: 'I'm Well Aware How Fragile Life Is'", "question_index": 7, "text": "How would you describe his importance in the gay rights movement?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "883899902", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Cleve Jones", "title": "LGBTQ Activist Cleve Jones: 'I'm Well Aware How Fragile Life Is'", "question_index": 8, "text": "So in 1977, Anita Bryant led a campaign to overturn a gay rights ordinance in Dade County, Fla. And after winning, she vowed to take that campaign nationwide. So after her group kind of won in 1977, there was a big protest in San Francisco. And, you know, Harvey Milk helped - you say he helped channel the anger into a march. So describe him in action during that protest.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he's often described as the first openly gay person to be elected to public office. That's inaccurate. And in my book, I make sure to credit the half-dozen or so individuals who came before him "}
{"id": "883899902", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Cleve Jones", "title": "LGBTQ Activist Cleve Jones: 'I'm Well Aware How Fragile Life Is'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Really? That was part of the strategy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "883899902", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Cleve Jones", "title": "LGBTQ Activist Cleve Jones: 'I'm Well Aware How Fragile Life Is'", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was march them till they drop. That was the strategy."}
{"id": "883899902", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Cleve Jones", "title": "LGBTQ Activist Cleve Jones: 'I'm Well Aware How Fragile Life Is'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Yeah, you say that Harvey Monk's attitude was don't burn down your neighborhood.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And there were so many times when we would go roaring through town at, you know, 11 o'clock at night, tens of thousands of people screaming bloody murder, but without breaking a single window or injur"}
{"id": "883899902", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Cleve Jones", "title": "LGBTQ Activist Cleve Jones: 'I'm Well Aware How Fragile Life Is'", "question_index": 12, "text": "So in 1978, California State Senator John Briggs proposed a bill, which became known as the Briggs Initiative or Proposition 6, that would ban gay people from working in any capacity in California public schools. What was your role in opposing that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "883899902", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Cleve Jones", "title": "LGBTQ Activist Cleve Jones: 'I'm Well Aware How Fragile Life Is'", "question_index": 13, "text": "And what was the outcome?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "At that time. there were only a few local jurisdictions in the entire country that had passed any kind of legal protections for the people we now call LGBT, and the movement to repeal them was gaining"}
{"id": "883899902", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Cleve Jones", "title": "LGBTQ Activist Cleve Jones: 'I'm Well Aware How Fragile Life Is'", "question_index": 14, "text": "You did that kind of work, too, didn't you? Knock on doors?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, contrary to all the predictions, we won that election. And, you know, it would be decades before we won another statewide election like that. And the history has largely been forgotten. And back"}
{"id": "883899902", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Cleve Jones", "title": "LGBTQ Activist Cleve Jones: 'I'm Well Aware How Fragile Life Is'", "question_index": 15, "text": "You were working for Harvey Milk when he was assassinated by Dan White, and you knew - you saw police. You knew something was wrong when you came to the office. You had a kind of personal way of getting in there so that the police weren't blocking your way. And you came upon Harvey Milk's dead body and saw a police officer picking up the body. And you saw an explicitly horrible death. What lasting impact did that have on you? You can't unsee something like that. You can't erase it from your mind.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview with activist Cleve Jones. They spoke in 2016, when his memoir \"When We Rise: My Life In The Movement\" was first published."}
{"id": "883899902", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Cleve Jones", "title": "LGBTQ Activist Cleve Jones: 'I'm Well Aware How Fragile Life Is'", "question_index": 16, "text": "You got a job after Harvey Milk's assassination with the state assembly's speaker, the state assembly of California, to work on gay rights and to monitor the assembly's health committee and serve as the liaison between the committee's Democratic members and the speaker, who was Leo McCarthy. And that's how you first found out about AIDS, before that word was known. You had to, as part of your job, read the CDC's weekly Morbidity and Mortality Report. And back in 1981, you read about something called pneumocystis pneumonia. Did you realize right away that this was something that was going to decimate a lot of the gay community? Like, what was the first article about it that you read? What were the clues?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "and tell him he wasn't important enough to get shot. So that was pretty eerie and very horrible to be sitting in his office, listening to his voice predicting his death while his body's there in the h"}
{"id": "883899902", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Cleve Jones", "title": "LGBTQ Activist Cleve Jones: 'I'm Well Aware How Fragile Life Is'", "question_index": 17, "text": "When were you diagnosed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was the first week of June 1981, and I read in the CDC's Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report about these cases of pneumocystis pneumonia and Kaposi's sarcoma among young, previously healthy homos"}
{"id": "883899902", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Cleve Jones", "title": "LGBTQ Activist Cleve Jones: 'I'm Well Aware How Fragile Life Is'", "question_index": 18, "text": "And you almost didn't.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I tested positive for HIV the week the test came out, which I'm thinking was 1985. That time is a bit of a blur, but yeah, I tested positive. And I had been in a study I had volunteered for, so I knew"}
{"id": "883899902", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Cleve Jones", "title": "LGBTQ Activist Cleve Jones: 'I'm Well Aware How Fragile Life Is'", "question_index": 19, "text": "You say the movement saved your life because you think it was in part because of ACT UP that the trials of these drugs are sped up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't get seriously ill until 1993, and then I got very sick. My immune system collapsed, and I was also allergic to many of the drugs used to treat the opportunistic infections, particularly pneum"}
{"id": "883899902", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Cleve Jones", "title": "LGBTQ Activist Cleve Jones: 'I'm Well Aware How Fragile Life Is'", "question_index": 20, "text": "How's your health now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, that's really what this book is about. The movement saved my life twice. I was planning to kill myself when I was 15 because I thought I was the only queer in the world, and I didn't wan"}
{"id": "883899902", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Cleve Jones", "title": "LGBTQ Activist Cleve Jones: 'I'm Well Aware How Fragile Life Is'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Was it hard to learn how to be happy when you'd lost so many of your friends to the epidemic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And, you know, when - that fall when the meds started to work, I ran into a friend at the grocery store. It was one of my first trips out by myself able to walk, go shopping, you know, live a semi-n"}
{"id": "883899902", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Cleve Jones", "title": "LGBTQ Activist Cleve Jones: 'I'm Well Aware How Fragile Life Is'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Cleve Jones, thank you so much for talking with us. And I wish you all best and good health.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm still learning. I think anyone who goes through that kind of experience with that kind of - the enormity of the loss, you know, it's similar, I think, to being in a war. And I think of my friends "}
{"id": "883900763", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks Pride Month With Novelist Marijane Meaker", "question_index": 0, "text": "Marijane Meaker, what did Patricia Highsmith mean to you before you actually met her at this bar?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) L's was on a little side street in Greenwich Village, a dark, cozy lesbian bar. It was the beginning of graciousness in the lesbian bar world. There was no evidence of Mafia ownership, no me"}
{"id": "883900763", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks Pride Month With Novelist Marijane Meaker", "question_index": 1, "text": "You were both popular writers. Who was more out at the time, and were you out in different ways?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in the '50s, in the early '50s, we used to play a game of truth. And I remember one night the question was, if you could be anyone beside yourself, a living person, who would you choose to be? A"}
{"id": "883900763", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks Pride Month With Novelist Marijane Meaker", "question_index": 2, "text": "Let's talk more about your life. First of all, when you realized that it was girls, not boys, that you were attracted to, had you ever heard the word lesbian or heard that there was such a thing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was far more out. I was politically active, and I was interested in the new movement for gay rights and - in New York. She was not at all interested in anything like that. She wasn't interested in p"}
{"id": "883900763", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks Pride Month With Novelist Marijane Meaker", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. I went to boarding school deliberately because I wanted to find out about this world that I knew I was part of. And I had read that boarding schools were filled with perversion. So I was very"}
{"id": "883900763", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks Pride Month With Novelist Marijane Meaker", "question_index": 4, "text": "Now you were among the first lesbian pulp novelists. You wrote for Gold Medal, which is famous, among other things...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But no, I had always - I read everything I could find. The minute I knew things were wrong with me, I read everything that I could find. Then after boarding school, when I chose college, I chose delib"}
{"id": "883900763", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks Pride Month With Novelist Marijane Meaker", "question_index": 5, "text": "...For first publishing original paperbacks. In other words, these were books that were never in hardcover.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "883900763", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks Pride Month With Novelist Marijane Meaker", "question_index": 6, "text": "And most of these were pulp novels. There were, you know, crime novels and sex-oriented novels. How did you end up writing lesbian pulp fiction for a Gold Medal?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "883900763", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks Pride Month With Novelist Marijane Meaker", "question_index": 7, "text": "Sure. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first of all, pulp isn't really - I know everybody calls it pulp. I call it paperback. Pulp to me were the pulp - wonderful pulp magazines that paid a penny a word."}
{"id": "883900763", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks Pride Month With Novelist Marijane Meaker", "question_index": 8, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that was pulp."}
{"id": "883900763", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks Pride Month With Novelist Marijane Meaker", "question_index": 9, "text": "How did you write \"Spring Fire,\" your first lesbian paperback?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But now it's become pulp. You must remember that these paperback writers were very well paid, far better paid than you would be in hardcover. And so you had writers like John MacDonald, Day Keene, Cha"}
{"id": "883900763", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks Pride Month With Novelist Marijane Meaker", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I became friendly with the editor, Dick Carroll. And he said, if you had a story to write, what would you write about? And I said, well, I just came from college. And before that I was in boarding sch"}
{"id": "883900763", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks Pride Month With Novelist Marijane Meaker", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...This with Michener and we'll have double the sales."}
{"id": "883900763", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks Pride Month With Novelist Marijane Meaker", "question_index": 12, "text": "I mean, you sold 1 1/2 million copies if what I read is correct.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because nobody really thought a book about lesbians was going to sell anything."}
{"id": "883900763", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks Pride Month With Novelist Marijane Meaker", "question_index": 13, "text": "Now, one of the things your editor told you at Gold Medal was that you had to have a happy ending to this lesbian novel. Why did you need that?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2003 interview with author Marijane Meaker. She wrote dozens of books under her own name and several pseudonyms, including many with lesbian themes and pro"}
{"id": "883900763", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks Pride Month With Novelist Marijane Meaker", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, in fact, you brought one of your novels...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, because these paperbacks went through the mail, and the mail censored things. And if there was anything that seemed to proselytize for a vice like lesbianism, why, then they would junk the whole "}
{"id": "883900763", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks Pride Month With Novelist Marijane Meaker", "question_index": 15, "text": "...With you - the first one, \"Spring Fire. Can you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I have one."}
{"id": "883900763", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks Pride Month With Novelist Marijane Meaker", "question_index": 16, "text": "...Read the happy ending for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And this is..."}
{"id": "883900763", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks Pride Month With Novelist Marijane Meaker", "question_index": 17, "text": "So she has a kind of, like, heterosexual awakening at the end?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Here's the happy ending. She's just left her psychoanalyst's or psychiatrist's office - Susan. And she is - and he is saying... (Reading) Dr. Peters (ph) lingered in the hall near the door as Susan Mi"}
{"id": "883900763", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks Pride Month With Novelist Marijane Meaker", "question_index": 18, "text": "Right. So this made it safe to travel through the mails. How did you feel when you were writing this phony ending?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, she goes to a doctor, and he turns her into a heterosexual. That's why she says she's going off with these wonderful straight couples for fun that weekend. Yes. And she realizes not only is she a "}
{"id": "883900763", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks Pride Month With Novelist Marijane Meaker", "question_index": 19, "text": "OK. Now we're talking about the kind of happy ending you had to paste onto your novel so that it wouldn't be censored in the mail. A subsequent novel that you wrote, also a lesbian novel, called \"Whisper His Sin\" - I'm sorry. I guess this is a homosexual novel.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I laughed. I was not politically conscious to that point. It really hadn't begun yet. I wrote this, I think it was '51 or '52. I was right out of college. And I thought it was a funny idea. You don't "}
{"id": "883900763", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks Pride Month With Novelist Marijane Meaker", "question_index": 20, "text": "\"Whisper His Sin\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. That was actually based on a true murder case, the Freden-Whetman (ph) murder case. Two young men murdered one of their mothers. And I've - I just copied that. I created that book from the news s"}
{"id": "883900763", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks Pride Month With Novelist Marijane Meaker", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. That was actually based on a true murder case, the Freden-Whetman (ph) murder case. Two young men murdered one of their mothers. And I've - I just copied that. I created that book from the news s"}
{"id": "883900763", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks Pride Month With Novelist Marijane Meaker", "question_index": 22, "text": "The cover copy was, (reading) this is one of the most shocking novels we have ever published. It deals with a strange way of life that has become all too prevalent and is still spreading. The book begins in the tormented mind of a boy and ends in the tormented murder of his parents. Between this beginning and this end, there was a frightening picture of how the blight of sexual distortion spreads, corrupts and finally destroys those around it. We also believe that this is one of the most morally enlightening books you will ever read.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "883900763", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks Pride Month With Novelist Marijane Meaker", "question_index": 23, "text": "Was it important in terms of censorship to put all this morally enlightening stuff on the cover?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "883900763", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks Pride Month With Novelist Marijane Meaker", "question_index": 24, "text": "Now, the books that we talked about, \"Whisper His Sin\"...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. That was all part of it. I think gay people felt - because we didn't have a sense of entitlement in the '50s - but we felt, there are books about us. Even a book about a criminal case like Freden"}
{"id": "883900763", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks Pride Month With Novelist Marijane Meaker", "question_index": 25, "text": "...And \"Spring Fire\" were both written under the pen name Vin Packer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes"}
{"id": "883900763", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks Pride Month With Novelist Marijane Meaker", "question_index": 26, "text": "Your name is Marijane Meaker.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "883900763", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks Pride Month With Novelist Marijane Meaker", "question_index": 27, "text": "Why didn't you use your own name?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "883900763", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks Pride Month With Novelist Marijane Meaker", "question_index": 28, "text": "What didn't work about the name?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I have always had a reluctance to using my own name. Even now, I still don't write under my own name unless it's something like the \"Highsmith\" book where I would have to. I like pseudonyms. I l"}
{"id": "883900763", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks Pride Month With Novelist Marijane Meaker", "question_index": 29, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I just thought it was a silly name. It sounded like a sportscaster."}
{"id": "883900763", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks Pride Month With Novelist Marijane Meaker", "question_index": 30, "text": "What was your name as an agent?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And - I don't know - I might have thought more carefully about it if I had thought I was going to be with it that long. But I was my own agent. And that was another name for the pseudonyms. I had - I "}
{"id": "883900763", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks Pride Month With Novelist Marijane Meaker", "question_index": 31, "text": "Oh, I see. So a lot of people really thought that Marijane Meaker was an agent who...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Marijane Meaker."}
{"id": "883900763", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks Pride Month With Novelist Marijane Meaker", "question_index": 32, "text": "Wow", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes."}
{"id": "883900763", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks Pride Month With Novelist Marijane Meaker", "question_index": 33, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes."}
{"id": "883900763", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks Pride Month With Novelist Marijane Meaker", "question_index": 34, "text": "You write really well about gay bars in your new memoir about Patricia Highsmith. And you write how a lot of the gay bars were run by the mafia in the 1950s.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. Even my editor, Dick Carroll, thought so in the beginning."}
{"id": "883900763", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks Pride Month With Novelist Marijane Meaker", "question_index": 35, "text": "What were those bars like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "883900763", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks Pride Month With Novelist Marijane Meaker", "question_index": 36, "text": "What are some of the things that happened after Stonewall and after the start of the gay rights movement that have affected your life that you thought you would never see?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were terrible. You would go in. And at the door, there would be a man in a low - a low man on the totem pole in the mafia world. He would usually have a couple of zircons on his little fingers an"}
{"id": "883900763", "date": "2020-06-26", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "'Fresh Air' Marks Pride Month With Novelist Marijane Meaker", "question_index": 37, "text": "Well, Marijane Meaker, thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The main thing I thought I would never see - and if my parents weren't dead, it would kill them - is the announcements in The New York Times, the commitment announcements, along with the wedding pages"}
{"id": "885942130", "date": "2020-07-01", "guest": "Radley Balko", "title": "Militarization Of Police Means U.S. Protesters Face Weapons Designed For War", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. How did the U.S., a country pushed into a revolution by protest and political speech, become one where protests are met with flash grenades, pepper spray and platoons of riot teams dressed like Robocops? That's what my guest Radley Balko wrote seven years before the George Floyd protests in his book \"Rise Of The Warrior Cop: The Militarization Of America's Police Forces.\" It's a history of how police forces started acquiring military-grade weapons, helicopters and armored personnel carriers designed for use on a battlefield and receiving training from current and former personnel from Special Forces units, like the Navy SEALs and Army Rangers. Balko has been writing about the George Floyd protests and the police in his Washington Post column, where he covers criminal justice, civil liberties and the drug wars. He was previously an investigative reporter and senior writer for The Huffington Post. Radley Balko, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "885942130", "date": "2020-07-01", "guest": "Radley Balko", "title": "Militarization Of Police Means U.S. Protesters Face Weapons Designed For War", "question_index": 1, "text": "What weapons and vehicles did the police have during the George Floyd protests that illustrates your point about the militarization of police?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me on."}
{"id": "885942130", "date": "2020-07-01", "guest": "Radley Balko", "title": "Militarization Of Police Means U.S. Protesters Face Weapons Designed For War", "question_index": 2, "text": "You know, you mentioned tear gas. Is tear gas legal in war? Because it is a chemical agent.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, I think the riot gear in and of itself is problematic. I think the use of the various chemical irritants that we saw raises a lot of issues. You know, I will say that this time I think t"}
{"id": "885942130", "date": "2020-07-01", "guest": "Radley Balko", "title": "Militarization Of Police Means U.S. Protesters Face Weapons Designed For War", "question_index": 3, "text": "So one of the weapons that police were using during the protests is flash-bangs. How are they used in war compared to how they were used in protests?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's banned by several treaties. It's not supposed to be used on the battlefield. And that's actually kind of one of the sort of ironies, I think, I've run into since writing the book, which is "}
{"id": "885942130", "date": "2020-07-01", "guest": "Radley Balko", "title": "Militarization Of Police Means U.S. Protesters Face Weapons Designed For War", "question_index": 4, "text": "So what are some of the military weapons that many police forces in big cities and small towns have - no weapons and vehicles - that we don't necessarily see but they do have?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So in war, the primary use of flash grenades or flash-bangs is during raids on, you know, suspected insurgents. So the purpose of a flash grenade is to - it emits this really bright flash and then a v"}
{"id": "885942130", "date": "2020-07-01", "guest": "Radley Balko", "title": "Militarization Of Police Means U.S. Protesters Face Weapons Designed For War", "question_index": 5, "text": "So you trace the militarization of the police to the 1960s, to the policing of the civil rights movement, student protests, anti-war protests, the culture wars. And specifically, you go back to 1965 and the riots - or the uprising if you prefer to use that word - in Watts, in California, five nights in August. Describe what happened during those five nights.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So some of the things we haven't seen at the protests specifically, you know, we haven't seen a lot of the armored vehicles that a lot of police departments have. Some have armored vehicles that are -"}
{"id": "885942130", "date": "2020-07-01", "guest": "Radley Balko", "title": "Militarization Of Police Means U.S. Protesters Face Weapons Designed For War", "question_index": 6, "text": "The name itself has an interesting story that you tell in your book, which is that it was initially named the Special Weapons Attack Team, which I think is the name that Daryl Gates wanted to give it. But there was objections to the word attack, so it was renamed Special Weapons And Tactics, which is a more neutral name than attack.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The riots in Watts were the product of years and years of tension between police and the Black community in Los Angeles. It was a routine traffic stop that got a little out of hand, and, you know, the"}
{"id": "885942130", "date": "2020-07-01", "guest": "Radley Balko", "title": "Militarization Of Police Means U.S. Protesters Face Weapons Designed For War", "question_index": 7, "text": "How did that initially change the weapons and the tactics that police had?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And the interesting thing about that story is that the mission of the SWAT team didn't change at all; it was all about perception, and they wanted to sort of be able to sell this idea. And I th"}
{"id": "885942130", "date": "2020-07-01", "guest": "Radley Balko", "title": "Militarization Of Police Means U.S. Protesters Face Weapons Designed For War", "question_index": 8, "text": "How are they predominantly used today?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think, initially, it was more about tactics than weapons. I mean, the SWAT team was probably better armed than your typical patrol officer, but we hadn't yet seen this kind of wholesale transf"}
{"id": "885942130", "date": "2020-07-01", "guest": "Radley Balko", "title": "Militarization Of Police Means U.S. Protesters Face Weapons Designed For War", "question_index": 9, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Radley Balko, author of \"Rise Of The Warrior Cop: The Militarization Of America's Police Forces.\" He's a columnist for The Washington Post, where he writes about criminal justice, civil liberties and the drug wars. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So today, they're used overwhelmingly to serve drug warrants. And, you know, this happened - this shift happened through the '80s and '90s, as the federal government started introducing more and more "}
{"id": "885942130", "date": "2020-07-01", "guest": "Radley Balko", "title": "Militarization Of Police Means U.S. Protesters Face Weapons Designed For War", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Radley Balko, author of \"Rise Of The Warrior Cop: The Militarization Of America's Police Forces.\" He's also a columnist for The Washington Post. Breonna Taylor was not killed by a SWAT team; it was just a regular police team, but you say they used SWAT team tactics.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So today, they're used overwhelmingly to serve drug warrants. And, you know, this happened - this shift happened through the '80s and '90s, as the federal government started introducing more and more "}
{"id": "885942130", "date": "2020-07-01", "guest": "Radley Balko", "title": "Militarization Of Police Means U.S. Protesters Face Weapons Designed For War", "question_index": 11, "text": "So can you apply what you're saying to the Breonna Taylor case?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "885942130", "date": "2020-07-01", "guest": "Radley Balko", "title": "Militarization Of Police Means U.S. Protesters Face Weapons Designed For War", "question_index": 12, "text": "Let me just back up for a second and ask you to describe what happened to Breonna Taylor. But before you do, I just want to mention - there's a really bad thunderstorm where you are in Nashville right now. So occasionally, we might hear some thunder in the background.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So what we see over the '80s, '90s and 2000s is a dramatic surge in the number of SWAT teams, the frequency of their use. But at the same time, you also see these non-SWAT teams that sort of do"}
{"id": "885942130", "date": "2020-07-01", "guest": "Radley Balko", "title": "Militarization Of Police Means U.S. Protesters Face Weapons Designed For War", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here. And then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Radley Balko, a columnist for The Washington Post and author of the book \"Rise Of The Warrior Cop: The Militarization Of America's Police Forces.\" We'll be right back after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Breonna Taylor was killed during a raid on her home, a drug raid on her home. The police claimed that they knocked and announced themselves. Her boyfriend, Kenneth Walker, who was with her, did not"}
{"id": "885942130", "date": "2020-07-01", "guest": "Radley Balko", "title": "Militarization Of Police Means U.S. Protesters Face Weapons Designed For War", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Radley Balko, author of \"Rise Of The Warrior Cop: The Militarization Of America's Police Forces.\" It's a history of how police forces started acquiring military-grade weapons, helicopters and armored personnel carriers designed for use on a battlefield and receiving training from current and former personnel from Special Forces, like the Navy SEALs or Army Rangers. Balko says the culture of policing has become militarized, too. He writes a column for The Washington Post focusing on criminal justice, civil liberties and the drug wars. How did SWAT teams start being used in the war on drugs during the Reagan era? And how were they used?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Breonna Taylor was killed during a raid on her home, a drug raid on her home. The police claimed that they knocked and announced themselves. Her boyfriend, Kenneth Walker, who was with her, did not"}
{"id": "885942130", "date": "2020-07-01", "guest": "Radley Balko", "title": "Militarization Of Police Means U.S. Protesters Face Weapons Designed For War", "question_index": 15, "text": "There's something else that led to the militarization of the drug wars and incentives to militarize the drug wars, and that's something called forfeiture, which I'd like you to explain.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So what we get is we get a proliferation in the number of SWAT teams because the Reagan administration started blurring this line that we've had between the military and the police. And yeah, we had t"}
{"id": "885942130", "date": "2020-07-01", "guest": "Radley Balko", "title": "Militarization Of Police Means U.S. Protesters Face Weapons Designed For War", "question_index": 16, "text": "Has the kind of cash incentive that the forfeiture laws offer been challenged?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So civil asset forfeiture, it's one of those concepts that's so absurd that if somebody already hasn't heard of it and you tried to explain it to them, it doesn't sound real. But it's based on this le"}
{"id": "885942130", "date": "2020-07-01", "guest": "Radley Balko", "title": "Militarization Of Police Means U.S. Protesters Face Weapons Designed For War", "question_index": 17, "text": "Let's take another short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Radley Balko, author of \"Rise Of The Warrior Cop: The Militarization Of America's Police Forces.\" He's a columnist for The Washington Post. We'll be back after this break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, forfeiture has been challenged all over the country. There have been - there's actually been quite a bit of reform in civil asset forfeiture, particularly in the last five or six years. But I'"}
{"id": "885942130", "date": "2020-07-01", "guest": "Radley Balko", "title": "Militarization Of Police Means U.S. Protesters Face Weapons Designed For War", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Radley Balko, author of \"Rise Of The Warrior Cop: The Militarization Of America's Police Forces.\" He's a columnist for The Washington Post, where he writes about criminal justice, civil liberties and the drug wars. In telling the story of how the police became militarized, let's skip ahead from where we were to 1997. You describe this as the year that opened the door to easy access to military-grade weapons. The National Defense Authorization Security Act, the bill to fund the Pentagon, that year had a provision called the 1033 program. What was that program?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, forfeiture has been challenged all over the country. There have been - there's actually been quite a bit of reform in civil asset forfeiture, particularly in the last five or six years. But I'"}
{"id": "885942130", "date": "2020-07-01", "guest": "Radley Balko", "title": "Militarization Of Police Means U.S. Protesters Face Weapons Designed For War", "question_index": 19, "text": "So let's stick with 1997 for a second. So this bill authorizes military weapons to go from the military to police. What was the process like? And what kind of money was involved?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So this was the program that formalizes and codifies into federal law what had previously been this informal practice of giving surplus military equipment to local police departments. And so the 1033 "}
{"id": "885942130", "date": "2020-07-01", "guest": "Radley Balko", "title": "Militarization Of Police Means U.S. Protesters Face Weapons Designed For War", "question_index": 20, "text": "Are there any examples from the years of this program where police used high-grade military weapons or vehicles?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So for the first several years, it was - the police department would call and see what was available. They would call this office. Once the Internet started becoming faster and more efficient, there's"}
{"id": "885942130", "date": "2020-07-01", "guest": "Radley Balko", "title": "Militarization Of Police Means U.S. Protesters Face Weapons Designed For War", "question_index": 21, "text": "So in talking about the history of the militarization of the police, let's go to 2001. How did the terrorist attacks of 9/11 and the creation of the Department of Homeland Security increase the militarization of the police?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I mean, there are countless examples. I mean, the guns, you know, were used regularly. They were used by SWAT teams. They were used sometimes by just patrol officers. There were - armored vehicles"}
{"id": "885942130", "date": "2020-07-01", "guest": "Radley Balko", "title": "Militarization Of Police Means U.S. Protesters Face Weapons Designed For War", "question_index": 22, "text": "So is there a lot of marketing now to police of military-grade weapons?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "After the terrorist attacks, we get DHS created in 2003. And part of its creation - or as part of its creation, DHS starts giving out anti-terrorism grants to police departments across the country, an"}
{"id": "885942130", "date": "2020-07-01", "guest": "Radley Balko", "title": "Militarization Of Police Means U.S. Protesters Face Weapons Designed For War", "question_index": 23, "text": "And what's your take on that, of that kind of marketing to police? You know, because you say the culture of police has become militarized, as well as the weapons. Is that ad also contributing to the culture of policing as well as to the weapons?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "in the video, but there was a lot of - there were a lot of guns and a lot of SWAT officers."}
{"id": "885942130", "date": "2020-07-01", "guest": "Radley Balko", "title": "Militarization Of Police Means U.S. Protesters Face Weapons Designed For War", "question_index": 24, "text": "Do you think that becomes a cycle of that if the culture becomes more militarized, then people who see themselves in that kind of us-and-them military situation are more likely to join the police?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I think it's contributing, but I also think it's - they know their audience, right? I mean, this is a company that probably has a marketing team that knows what they're doing. You know, the cu"}
{"id": "885942130", "date": "2020-07-01", "guest": "Radley Balko", "title": "Militarization Of Police Means U.S. Protesters Face Weapons Designed For War", "question_index": 25, "text": "We need to take another short break here. So let's do that, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Radley Balko, author of \"Rise Of The Warrior Cop: The Militarization Of America's Police Forces.\" He's also a columnist for The Washington Post. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely. And, you know, another unfortunate trend that we've seen written about is you can go to YouTube and type in police recruiting video. And these are videos that they send to high schools"}
{"id": "885942130", "date": "2020-07-01", "guest": "Radley Balko", "title": "Militarization Of Police Means U.S. Protesters Face Weapons Designed For War", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Radley Balko, author of \"Rise Of The Warrior Cop: The Militarization Of America's Police Forces.\" He's also a columnist for The Washington Post, where he writes about criminal justice, civil liberties and the drug wars. There are calls now since the George Floyd protests to defund or disband the police. What does that mean to you when you hear it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely. And, you know, another unfortunate trend that we've seen written about is you can go to YouTube and type in police recruiting video. And these are videos that they send to high schools"}
{"id": "885942130", "date": "2020-07-01", "guest": "Radley Balko", "title": "Militarization Of Police Means U.S. Protesters Face Weapons Designed For War", "question_index": 27, "text": "Have you ever had any incidents where you felt you were treated unfairly by police or where you were injured by police in any way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It means a lot of different things. I mean. I think there are people who - activists who who are very sincere that they want to zero-out funding for police departments. And they want to find other way"}
{"id": "885942130", "date": "2020-07-01", "guest": "Radley Balko", "title": "Militarization Of Police Means U.S. Protesters Face Weapons Designed For War", "question_index": 28, "text": "Radley Balko, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, but I'm white. And, you know, I've actually had incidents where I was pulled over. And I argued with police about whether I should have to take a roadside sobriety test. In that case, I mean, I wa"}
{"id": "885942130", "date": "2020-07-01", "guest": "Radley Balko", "title": "Militarization Of Police Means U.S. Protesters Face Weapons Designed For War", "question_index": 29, "text": "Radley Balko is a columnist for The Washington Post and author of \"Rise Of The Warrior Cop: The Militarization Of America's Police Forces.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be Patrick Stewart. This year, he returned to the role he's most famous for, Jean-Luc Picard, in the series \"Star Trek: Picard.\" He played Picard in several \"Star Trek\" films and seven seasons of \"The Next Generation.\" Before that, he was a member of the Royal Shakespeare Company. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My pleasure. Thanks for having me on."}
{"id": "885942130", "date": "2020-07-01", "guest": "Radley Balko", "title": "Militarization Of Police Means U.S. Protesters Face Weapons Designed For War", "question_index": 30, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering from Charlie Kaier. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Joel Wolfram. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My pleasure. Thanks for having me on."}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 0, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no. My parents were very proud of the fact that I wouldn't be a bum and I wanted to be an actor. See, they thought - they revered actors because when I was a kid - you see, I - being of Jewish her"}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 1, "text": "You started in serious roles in the theater, didn't you? How did you get into comedy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And they were very happy I became an actor. They just wanted me to be an actor in my neighborhood. They didn't want me to go away. And so when I did radio in New York and some plays in New York when I"}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 2, "text": "You did \"Your Show Of Shows.\" You were one of the stars of it. You were one of the writers on it. And it really turned into one of the most important shows in the history of television. Did you have any sense...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the Army - well - no, actually, I got into comedy because my first year that I didn't do serious stuff, I've done a Shakespearean tour. I'd been in summer theaters doing about 36 plays before I "}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 3, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was the first..."}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 4, "text": "How did he find you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, the first of its kind sometimes isn't revered. It's just that you break some ground. But this was the first of its kind, and it was peopled by extraordinary writing and performing talent. Max "}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 5, "text": "So being second banana to Sid Caesar, did he want to get all - was he the kind of performer who wanted all the good lines for himself? Was he a...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He found me in a Broadway show. I was performing in a Broadway show. And the first full year of \"Your Show Of Shows\" was about to go on the air, and he needed somebody to support Sid Caesar. And I had"}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 6, "text": "...Hog in any way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no."}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 7, "text": "So you started hanging out with the writers and sitting in on all the writing meetings and contributing ideas.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As a matter of fact, he was very good about the piece being right. And if you got a laugh - and if you did something funny, he would never say, oh, let me do that. He'd just let you do it. As a matter"}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 8, "text": "Oh, yeah. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it started in the third week, and it was nine years of that. And I became actually a writer without a portfolio. I considered myself a writer at that point because I worked on things that even - I"}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 9, "text": "In the writers' meetings for \"The Sid Caesar Show\"...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's another second banana role that I relish."}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 10, "text": "...Was there ever an air of complete desperation where you had this whole room of really funny people, but they were just on the verge of killing themselves because they weren't coming up with what they wanted to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I tell you - you're reminding me now of a moment. When - after we had been on about two or three years and we had done five sketches a week for maybe two or three years - and that was an hour and "}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We sat for five minutes. He - and, of course, everybody broke up. They said they're not going to do anything. They're just going to sit there. That's it, Max. There's no more comedy."}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 13, "text": "There were some - several of the writers on the program were Jewish - you, Mel Brooks - toward the end of...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1989 interview with comedian, writer and director Carl Reiner, who died Monday at age 98. His first big break in TV came in 1950, when he was hired for a b"}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 14, "text": "Yeah, I...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mel Brooks is Jewish?"}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 15, "text": "That's what I heard. That's what I heard.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a shock."}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 16, "text": "Woody Allen worked on the show toward its end, and who knows who else I'm not mentioning here. But I was wondering if you were allowed to do Jewish characterizations, to have Yiddish words or to use a Jewish accent on a show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a shock."}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 17, "text": "I bet there were a lot of Yiddish-type sketch ideas that you came up with behind the scenes that you ended up tossing out since it wasn't appropriate for TV.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, we - no, I don't think we ever used a Jewish accent. I didn't know - after the war and during the war and before the war, it became well, it wasn't - people decided that making fun of any ethnic g"}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 18, "text": "Oh, really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, as a matter of fact, the 2,000-year-old man was in the office with us every day. And every time I got bored, I turned to Mel, and I'd interview the 2,000-year-old man..."}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 19, "text": "How did you come up with the idea for 2,000-year-old man? What was the story behind that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So we had that."}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 20, "text": "Now, how did that end up being recorded and being done on television?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was a very simple story. I came in one morning having seen something irresponsible on television and somebody who actually claimed to have been someplace they couldn't have been. And I said, "}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 21, "text": "Let me ask you a little bit about \"The Dick Van Dyke Show.\" I've always assumed that the show was based on your experiences writing for and performing in \"Your Show of Shows.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we had done it for years at parties. We were always invited to parties, sort of like command performances. And we didn't feel we wanted to do that. We figured we had enough stature to be just in"}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 22, "text": "All right, all right", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Did you come that - did to come to that on your own, or did you read it some place?"}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 23, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Did you come that - did to come to that on your own, or did you read it some place?"}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 24, "text": "OK, so it's obvious", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because..."}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 25, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because..."}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 26, "text": "Does that mean that when you came home every night you said, hi, honey, I'm home?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, but it - yeah, it was based on my life as a writer, actor on the \"Show Of Shows.\" And it was my home life fantasized and satirized and lied about. No, but basically it was - the husband and wi"}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 27, "text": "Did you ever trip over the divan on your way into the living room?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "as a matter of fact, hi, honey, I'm home was probably hardly ever said. I think maybe I used it once because that was a cliche of all situation comedies. And I rarely used that. I mean, he probably sa"}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 28, "text": "On \"The Dick Van Dyke Show,\" it always seemed like Dick Van Dyke saw himself as the sane person in the middle of all these really crazy people. Did you ever feel that way?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's 1989 interview with Carl Reiner, who died of natural causes Monday at age 98. Of all his impressive credits - writ"}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 29, "text": "Hey", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I always felt that way. I am basically always the sane person in a madhouse. Starting in my very first show on Broadway called \"Call Me Mister,\" I remember the producer saying - when I went on the roa"}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 30, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I always felt that way. I am basically always the sane person in a madhouse. Starting in my very first show on Broadway called \"Call Me Mister,\" I remember the producer saying - when I went on the roa"}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 31, "text": "\"The Dick Van Dyke Show\" is - has become one of the really classic sitcoms from television. Was it nevertheless a difficult show to sell to the network after you had created it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I got a $35 raise for being the company psychiatrist. I really have the - I'm supposed to be the sane one in every situation. I really am not, but I certainly know how to play it."}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 32, "text": "How did you cast yourself as Alan Brady, the star of the show?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. As a matter of fact, the network bought it right away. They knew the quality of the show, and they knew the performances were very winning. Our ratings the first year weren't the best because we w"}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 33, "text": "Yeah. How did you cast yourself doing it? Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "How - why did I cast myself doing it originally?"}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 34, "text": "Why did you end up switching to films after working in television?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, you mean Alan Brady. Well, I was looking for a major star, and I knew I couldn't get a major star to play a major star by - and giving him some of these small scenes to do. So I said, I got to fin"}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 35, "text": "Several of your movies have been collaborations with Steve Martin. How did you start working together?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had done 15 years of television almost weekly for 15 years. And the bigger the screen, the bigger the challenge. And I grew up watching movies, and I knew someday - I wanted someday to be on t"}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 36, "text": "You directed Steve Martin in \"All Of Me,\" and that's the movie in which his body is supposed to be invaded by the spirit...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was asked to come in on a picture that they were doing called \"Easy Money,\" which turned out to be \"The Jerk,\" as a director. And I worked with him on the script, and we had such a good rapport that"}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 37, "text": "...Or the soul of Lily Tomlin.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 38, "text": "And so he has to act as if his body is the shell for her.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 39, "text": "How did you work with him on getting the gestures and movements on that? It was such a good performance.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 40, "text": "Let me ask you about your son, Rob Reiner. He first became an acting star on \"All In The Family\" as Meathead, and then he became a director, directing movies like \"Princess Bride,\" \"Spinal Tap,\" \"Stand By Me.\" Did you ever expect him to go into show business?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's funny. Steve Martin is another one of those graceful ungraceful men. He does - he has very big hands and big feet, and there's no way - he doesn't have the ballet hands. And that's the only thing"}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 41, "text": "Do you show each other your work?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not when he was very young, although he had a tremendous ability to remember everything he'd ever seen. I mean, he's one of these kids who absorbs - he was one of those kids who absorbed everything he"}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 42, "text": "One last thing - does writing comedy help make life any more enjoyable? Can you put a comic spin on things in real life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. Last - you're asking something very, very current. You're the first one - FRESH AIR has got the first piece of information about this. Last night I saw a preview - not a preview, a rough cut "}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 43, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes, because writing comedy and writing it successfully, having your pictures made and people laugh at it, you know what happens? They give you money for that."}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 44, "text": "Carl Reiner, I want to thank you so much for talking with us. Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And you take that money, you buy a house, you buy a nice car, get good clothes, good food. And, of course, when you get older, you can't eat the really good food. You got to eat the simpler food. But "}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 45, "text": "Oh, I'm glad you like it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you for - and FRESH AIR is such a wonderful title."}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 46, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I hope we kept the air fresh."}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 47, "text": "What were you told about the character of Laura?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. When Carl Reiner's sitcom pilot starring him as TV writer Rob Petrie was rejected by CBS, producer Sheldon Leonard rescued it by persuading Reiner to replace the entire cast, includ"}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 48, "text": "But it wasn't that easy. The sponsors were afraid you'd look brazen.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just that she was going to be a wife, a television wife, and that really had its classical parameters and dimensions. And they were established, and they hardly ever varied, except as to whether or no"}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 49, "text": "Cupping under referring to the fit of your pants.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. They pointed specifically to - they used a term, cupping under, and I can only assume that that meant, you know, my seat, that there was a little too much definition. And so they allowed me to "}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 50, "text": "On your behind.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The fit of the pants, yes."}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 51, "text": "Yeah. Well, I think that speaks so well for the character and your portrayal of her. Did you do a lot of rehearsing with Dick Van Dyke or did you just have to do it minutes before the actual broadcast?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The funny thing is, you know, women liked me. They were not envious of the fact that their husbands had a crush on me. It was OK with them. They were the first to - you know, when I would meet people,"}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 52, "text": "(Singing) What a girl, what a world, what a life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, the whole show was done in what they call multiple camera technique. It's still done today. But back then, we were maybe the sixth or seventh show to use the technique. It began with Joan Davis, n"}
{"id": "886564021", "date": "2020-07-03", "guest": "Carl Reiner", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Carl Reiner, A Legendary Writer, Producer And Performer", "question_index": 53, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hey, good for you."}
{"id": "888906337", "date": "2020-07-08", "guest": "Sarah Posner", "title": "'Unholy' Examines The Alliance Between White Evangelicals And Trump", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Why has the Christian right embraced Donald Trump, whose values and lifestyle seem at odds with the values espoused by Christian right leaders? That's the question that Sarah Posner tries to answer in her new book \"Unholy: Why White Evangelicals Worship At The Altar Of Donald Trump.\" Her previous book, \"God's Profits\" - that's profits as in P-R-O-F-I-T-S - is about prosperity preachers. Trump's spiritual adviser, Paula White, is a prosperity preacher. Sarah Posner is a journalist who writes about the intersection of religion and politics and has covered the Christian right for about 15 years. She's currently a reporting fellow with Type Investigations, which was formerly known as The Nation Institute. Sarah Posner, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Your book is subtitled \"Why Evangelicals Worship At The Altar Of Donald Trump.\" That may sound like hyperbole, but you've actually spoken to people who believe that Trump was chosen by God to lead. Who are Christian leaders who believe that?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "888906337", "date": "2020-07-08", "guest": "Sarah Posner", "title": "'Unholy' Examines The Alliance Between White Evangelicals And Trump", "question_index": 1, "text": "So for the Christian leaders who are saying that Trump has been anointed by God, what are they using to explain that to justify that statement?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there are a number of people around Trump and his evangelical advisory board, people like Paul White, who you've mentioned in your intro. There are others outside of that particular circle who k"}
{"id": "888906337", "date": "2020-07-08", "guest": "Sarah Posner", "title": "'Unholy' Examines The Alliance Between White Evangelicals And Trump", "question_index": 2, "text": "How are Christian right leaders defending Trump's lack of leadership during the pandemic, His unwillingness to follow his own Coronavirus Task Force advice to wear a mask, maintain social distance, not hold large gatherings?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It really depends on who's speaking. It's such a common belief in the Christian right that Trump has somehow been chosen by God. The specific rationale for that varies. So some people will say, someti"}
{"id": "888906337", "date": "2020-07-08", "guest": "Sarah Posner", "title": "'Unholy' Examines The Alliance Between White Evangelicals And Trump", "question_index": 3, "text": "Do you know if the leaders of the Christian right believe that the corona virus isn't really a threat? Do you think they believe what Trump has been saying, like 99% of people who get the virus have, you know, it's nothing, basically?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it's really important to understand how the Christian right has operated in an alternative media universe throughout Trump's presidency. So they are not reading or listening to or absorb"}
{"id": "888906337", "date": "2020-07-08", "guest": "Sarah Posner", "title": "'Unholy' Examines The Alliance Between White Evangelicals And Trump", "question_index": 4, "text": "How was Donald Trump first embraced by the Christian right? He seems to know very little about the Bible. He's had affairs with women outside of his marriages, including with a porn star. He's constantly stating facts that aren't true. They're facts in quotes, but they're not factually accurate. He insults everyone he sees as an enemy. He demonizes Muslims, Mexicans, Black Lives Matter. He is insulting to women. I mean, these are not Christian values. So did he first embrace them because he needed more of a base? Did they first embrace him because they wanted a powerful - like, a potential president so they could get their agenda passed? Like, who embraced who?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that there's sort of a mix. I think some of them believe that most people don't have severe symptoms, or they try to talk about the death rate not being as high amongst certain populations. Fr"}
{"id": "888906337", "date": "2020-07-08", "guest": "Sarah Posner", "title": "'Unholy' Examines The Alliance Between White Evangelicals And Trump", "question_index": 5, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is journalist Sarah Posner, who covers the intersection of religion and politics. Her new book is called \"Unholy: Why White Evangelicals Worship At The Altar Of Donald Trump.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So back in 2011, when Trump was first toying with running for president, he appeared on the Christian Broadcasting Network and basically got a lot of coaching about what he should say to appeal to an "}
{"id": "888906337", "date": "2020-07-08", "guest": "Sarah Posner", "title": "'Unholy' Examines The Alliance Between White Evangelicals And Trump", "question_index": 6, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with journalist Sarah Posner, author of the new book \"Unholy: Why White Evangelicals Worship At The Altar Of Donald Trump.\" My impression from your book is that even though Trump doesn't share the values of the Christian right in terms of lifestyle and religion, the Christian right and Trump share a lot of the same grievances. So what are some of the grievances that unite them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So back in 2011, when Trump was first toying with running for president, he appeared on the Christian Broadcasting Network and basically got a lot of coaching about what he should say to appeal to an "}
{"id": "888906337", "date": "2020-07-08", "guest": "Sarah Posner", "title": "'Unholy' Examines The Alliance Between White Evangelicals And Trump", "question_index": 7, "text": "So you say some of the Christian right's grievances date back to the 1954 Supreme Court decision Brown v. Board of Education, which ordered the desegregation of schools. And, you know, the Christian right didn't want that. The Christian right was also worried that religious schools would lose their tax-exempt status when those schools were accused of racist policies. Do you think that part of the grievance that Trump shares with the Christian right is this fear that white America is being threatened by Black people and now Muslims and Mexicans?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Trump articulates for them the idea that changes that took place largely in the second half of the 20th century - political, legal, social changes - robbed them of something, robbed them of the Christ"}
{"id": "888906337", "date": "2020-07-08", "guest": "Sarah Posner", "title": "'Unholy' Examines The Alliance Between White Evangelicals And Trump", "question_index": 8, "text": "On a political level, what do leaders of the Christian right see in Donald Trump? What have they hoped he would deliver for them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes, very much so. So the Christian right, for the evangelicals and fundamentalists who came into the national politics in the era of the Moral Majority, the founding story that they like to tell"}
{"id": "888906337", "date": "2020-07-08", "guest": "Sarah Posner", "title": "'Unholy' Examines The Alliance Between White Evangelicals And Trump", "question_index": 9, "text": "You describe the Department of Health and Human Services as ground zero for the Trump administration's efforts to scale back reproductive and LGBTQ rights and for eroding church-state separation and framing that as religious freedom for Christians. So what has happened at HHS?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They hoped that he would deliver judges, which he has, and they hoped that he would deliver personnel with the freedom and flexibility to implement policy that they wanted. And he has largely done tha"}
{"id": "888906337", "date": "2020-07-08", "guest": "Sarah Posner", "title": "'Unholy' Examines The Alliance Between White Evangelicals And Trump", "question_index": 10, "text": "The head of HHS, Alex Azar, is on the president's Coronavirus Task Force. Azar has said the department has never fought more fiercely to protect life at all stages, from conception until natural death. That is thanks above all to the leadership and the courage of President Trump, the most pro-life president in American history. It sounds a little ironic to hear all this talk about pro-life from Health and Human Services now that President Trump is really downplaying the deaths that have happened as a result of the coronavirus and downplaying the dangers that we all face. And he's walking around without a mask. He's not encouraging people to wear masks. He's holding, you know, these mass rallies. I wonder how that sounds to you to hear about, you know, like, pro-life when so many people are dying now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One of the principal things that they did was create conscience and religious freedom division within HHS. And there, they invited members of the public to file complaints against states or health car"}
{"id": "888906337", "date": "2020-07-08", "guest": "Sarah Posner", "title": "'Unholy' Examines The Alliance Between White Evangelicals And Trump", "question_index": 11, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is journalist Sarah Posner. She covers the intersection of religion and politics. Her new book is called \"Unholy: Why White Evangelicals Worship At The Altar Of Donald Trump.\" We'll be back after this short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's just mind-boggling. I mean, it really is because I've been listening to them for years now talk about how Trump is the most pro-life president, not that he's done anything in particular except al"}
{"id": "888906337", "date": "2020-07-08", "guest": "Sarah Posner", "title": "'Unholy' Examines The Alliance Between White Evangelicals And Trump", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with journalist Sarah Posner, author of the new book \"Unholy: Why White Evangelicals Worship At The Altar Of Donald Trump.\" She covers the intersection of religion and politics and has written about the Christian right for about 15 years. She's a reporting fellow at Type Investigations. What do you think is the ultimate goal of the Christian right leaders who are supporting Trump?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's just mind-boggling. I mean, it really is because I've been listening to them for years now talk about how Trump is the most pro-life president, not that he's done anything in particular except al"}
{"id": "888906337", "date": "2020-07-08", "guest": "Sarah Posner", "title": "'Unholy' Examines The Alliance Between White Evangelicals And Trump", "question_index": 13, "text": "So we've talked about the alliance between Donald Trump and the Christian right. Let's get to the alt-right. How does the alt-right connect in there? Does the alt-right connect to the Christian right, as well as to Donald Trump?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A very serious - more serious rollback of the separation of church and state than the Supreme Court has already undertaken, and kind of a flipping of the separation of church and state to elevate the "}
{"id": "888906337", "date": "2020-07-08", "guest": "Sarah Posner", "title": "'Unholy' Examines The Alliance Between White Evangelicals And Trump", "question_index": 14, "text": "And so has he - has Trump brought together the alt-right and the Christian right in a way they hadn't been together before? Or are they already connected?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Donald Trump speaks to both of these constituencies simultaneously when he articulates the grievances of white America. So the same grievances that he talked about in the opening of his campaign energ"}
{"id": "888906337", "date": "2020-07-08", "guest": "Sarah Posner", "title": "'Unholy' Examines The Alliance Between White Evangelicals And Trump", "question_index": 15, "text": "You say that the Christian right sees Trump as the strongman they've been waiting for. What do you mean by that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that they're connected by a shared hostility to liberal democracy. So there are people in the alt-right who have a lot of contempt for the Christian right and vice versa. There are a lot of pe"}
{"id": "888906337", "date": "2020-07-08", "guest": "Sarah Posner", "title": "'Unholy' Examines The Alliance Between White Evangelicals And Trump", "question_index": 16, "text": "In addition to all the research that you've been doing historically about the Christian right and how they became aligned more recently with Trump, you've been to a lot of evangelical churches. You've been to megachurches. Can you tell us some of the things you've heard in the churches that relate to President Trump, that directly address Trump and his leadership?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they don't really like liberal democracy. And so when I say liberal democracy, I mean a democracy where there's a free press and an independent judiciary and a Congress, you know, a legislative "}
{"id": "888906337", "date": "2020-07-08", "guest": "Sarah Posner", "title": "'Unholy' Examines The Alliance Between White Evangelicals And Trump", "question_index": 17, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Sarah Posner. She covers the intersection of religion and politics. Her new book is called \"Unholy: Why White Evangelicals Worship At The Altar Of Donald Trump.\" We're going to take a short break. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that my answer includes conferences and rallies and religious events that took place in places other than churches as well as churches. But you hear that Trump is a really great leader, "}
{"id": "888906337", "date": "2020-07-08", "guest": "Sarah Posner", "title": "'Unholy' Examines The Alliance Between White Evangelicals And Trump", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with journalist Sarah Posner, author of the new book \"Unholy: Why White Evangelicals Worship At The Altar Of Donald Trump.\" One of the things that the Christian right approves of is President Trump's appointment of two Supreme Court judges. I think the Christian right would see that as victories. Last month, the Supreme Court ruled that Title VII of the Civil Rights Act, which outlaws employment discrimination based on race, religion, national origin and sex, that Title VII applies to gay and trans workers. Neil Gorsuch, one of Trump's appointees, wrote for the majority in that decision. Do you know what the Christian right's reaction to that has been?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that my answer includes conferences and rallies and religious events that took place in places other than churches as well as churches. But you hear that Trump is a really great leader, "}
{"id": "888906337", "date": "2020-07-08", "guest": "Sarah Posner", "title": "'Unholy' Examines The Alliance Between White Evangelicals And Trump", "question_index": 19, "text": "Another recent Supreme Court decision is that private schools, including religious schools, can qualify for state scholarship money. And this was a case from Montana. What's the significance of this in terms of religious groups?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were very upset because they had vociferously argued that sex does not include sexual orientation and gender identity. However, there was a caveat in Gorsuch's opinion which they're pinning a lot"}
{"id": "888906337", "date": "2020-07-08", "guest": "Sarah Posner", "title": "'Unholy' Examines The Alliance Between White Evangelicals And Trump", "question_index": 20, "text": "So what does that tell us about the court right now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's extremely significant in terms of public school and public subsidization of private religious schools. The Christian right was very happy with this decision as compared to the Title VII decision "}
{"id": "888906337", "date": "2020-07-08", "guest": "Sarah Posner", "title": "'Unholy' Examines The Alliance Between White Evangelicals And Trump", "question_index": 21, "text": "Sarah Posner, thank you so much for talking with us today.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the court is very - when you look at the totality of the court's recent decisions that directly bear on religion and religious freedom and the church-state separation, I think that the court i"}
{"id": "888906337", "date": "2020-07-08", "guest": "Sarah Posner", "title": "'Unholy' Examines The Alliance Between White Evangelicals And Trump", "question_index": 22, "text": "Sarah Posner is the author of the new book \"Unholy: Why White Evangelicals Worship At The Altar Of Donald Trump.\" We recorded the interview yesterday. This morning, the Supreme Court handed down more decisions pertaining to religion. It ruled that federal employment discrimination laws don't apply to teachers who teach religion in schools run by churches. In a separate decision, the court ruled that if an employer has a religious or moral objection to birth control, it can deny its employees access to free contraception coverage in the company's health insurance plan.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having me, Terry."}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Andre Holland, welcome to FRESH AIR. So as we speak to you now, you're in London, where you're performing the title role in \"Othello.\" And you're not only starring in \"Othello,\" you're performing at the Globe Theatre, the theater - like, the renovated version", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Richard II\" was scheduled to open this year's Shakespeare in the Park festival, staged each year in Central Park by New York's Public Theater. But the pandemic scuttled those plans, so the Public The"}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 1, "text": "of the theater where people performed Shakespeare in Shakespeare's day. That must be, like, pretty exciting.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Richard II\" was scheduled to open this year's Shakespeare in the Park festival, staged each year in Central Park by New York's Public Theater. But the pandemic scuttled those plans, so the Public The"}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 2, "text": "A space like what? Describe the space.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It's incredible. It really is. You know, when I was a student - a university student - I came over here to London to study abroad for a semester and completely fell in love with the Globe. I came an"}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Or like a movie, where people are munching on - you know, frankfurters and -", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "sometimes they'll be eating a bag of potato chips or crisps, as they're known over here. And, you know, it really feels like a sporting event as much as it does feel like a play."}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 4, "text": "like hot dogs and popcorn and chocolate bars. That sounds really distracting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "sometimes they'll be eating a bag of potato chips or crisps, as they're known over here. And, you know, it really feels like a sporting event as much as it does feel like a play."}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 5, "text": "So Othello is a character that is specifically supposed to be Black. He's the Moor, so he's the outsider. And I think, you know, for African American actors or British actors who want to do Shakespeare, like, that's the character that they're often given because that character used to be played by white actors in blackface. And now, of course, it's usually played by African Americans. But did you feel like typecasting in a way? Do you know what I mean? 'Cause sometimes, like, that's the only role available to African Americans in Shakespeare.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It - you know, it can be really distracting, but at the same time, it's really energizing. It's - you know, there are days when, frankly, you know, you don't feel like doing the play 'cause you're so "}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 6, "text": "Now, spoiler alert, you have to strangle your wife every night...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- we all seem to come back to it at some point, you know? But, yeah, it's a really complicated play. I mean, it's a beautifully written part, but it's not an easy one. And, you know, James Earl Jones,"}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 7, "text": "...Because your deceitful No. 2 has basically told you she's cheating on you, which she's not. Give us an example from one of the soliloquies of a passage that you just, like, really like to do every night.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep."}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 8, "text": "When you do Shakespeare, especially when you're doing a soliloquy, do you try to go for, like, a more conversational approach, a more contemporary way of doing it, or do you do a more, like, oratory kind of style?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One of my favorites is at the very beginning of the play where Othello has been called in front of the Senate because Desdemona's father has been made aware of their relationship. And he runs to the S"}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Not like Shakespeare", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a really good question. I - it depends. It depends on the character. It depends on the situation. I mean, one of my - one thing I'm very passionate about is that Shakespeare shouldn't feel - th"}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 10, "text": ". Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a really good question. I - it depends. It depends on the character. It depends on the situation. I mean, one of my - one thing I'm very passionate about is that Shakespeare shouldn't feel - th"}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Has your understanding of what a soliloquy is changed over the years? I mean, I've come to think of it as kind of like the equivalent of what would be a voiceover narration in a film.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I'm not interested in that. I mean, we've seen that. We've, you know, we've all fallen asleep in those productions. So I'm not interested in doing that."}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Like the first-person narration where somebody's, like, telling you their inner thoughts as a voiceover instead of, like, in dialogue with somebody.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think..."}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Andre Holland. And he's now in London starring in a production of \"Othello\" in the title role at the Globe Theatre. He also stars in the new Stephen King-inspired series \"Castle Rock.\" And he starred in \"Moonlight.\" He was one of the stars of \"Moonlight.\" We'll talk about \"Moonlight\" after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, that's how I used to experience it too, as this sort of - yeah, telling of one's inner thoughts. But I think actually what it is for me now is it is more of a dialogue. It's a conversa"}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 14, "text": "I think a lot of Americans doing Shakespeare - at least, certainly, more so in the past than now - have felt the need to sound British when they were doing it. You're an American performing Shakespeare in London at the Globe. You're not faking a British accent, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, that's how I used to experience it too, as this sort of - yeah, telling of one's inner thoughts. But I think actually what it is for me now is it is more of a dialogue. It's a conversa"}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 15, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, that's how I used to experience it too, as this sort of - yeah, telling of one's inner thoughts. But I think actually what it is for me now is it is more of a dialogue. It's a conversa"}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No way. I don't want to fake a British accent. And, you know, it's interesting. I remember one of my early auditions for a Shakespeare, I went in and did a soliloquy for the audition. And then I g"}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Or other times you might say, how are you doing, man? He say, well, I can't kill nothing and look like won't nothing die. You know, and those - that's perfect iambic. And that's just the rhythm that w"}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 18, "text": "You know, another thing about that style of preaching - because I, too, was listening to some C.L. Franklin - Reverend C.L. Franklin, Aretha's father, because we reran our interview and played an excerpt of one of his sermons. And it's just, like, a step away from soul singing. I mean, there's so much, like, music, he might as well have been singing his sermon.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it's the difference between her father loved me, oft invited me and her father loved me, oft invited me. And when you sort of, you know, offer the language in that way, people will hang around to h"}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2018 interview with actor Andre Holland, who stars next week in a new radio adaptation of Shakespeare's \"Richard II.\" His TV and film credits include starring in the streaming TV series \"The Eddy\" and \"Castlerock,\" and appearing as the adult Kevin in the movie \"Moonlight.\"", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's actor Andre Holland speaking to Terry Gross in 2018. After a break, we'll continue their conversation and hear about his emotional role in the movie \"Moonlight.\" This is FRESH AIR."}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 20, "text": "So I need to talk with you about \"Moonlight.\" It is such a great film. And I loved your performance so much in it.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's actor Andre Holland speaking to Terry Gross in 2018. After a break, we'll continue their conversation and hear about his emotional role in the movie \"Moonlight.\" This is FRESH AIR."}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 21, "text": "You know, there's a scene - this isn't you playing this, but in the high school version of your character - to protect himself from the school bully and to show that he is tough and that he's a man, he makes a deal with the school bully. And part of the deal is that when the bully says, you have to beat somebody up, he has to do it. Because the bully's also a sadist, he has your character, Kevin, beat up Chiron, who is a friend. And those two characters have recently been on the beach alone together and kissed and did a little more than that. And so right after all this, you know, the high school Kevin is told he has to beat up Chiron, and he does to prove his manhood. And I'm sure you read that part of the script and that your interpretation of the character was based on knowing that that happened. And I was wondering if you were ever in a position where you had to prove your manhood in a way that felt wrong or uncomfortable but, like, you had to do it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Who won the fight?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, let's see. The first thing that comes to mind was in school, I remember - sort of early high school - I went to a number of different schools growing up. And the second one that I went to, durin"}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 23, "text": "So let's talk about your life. You grew up in Bessemer, Ala. Tell us about the place where you grew up.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's 2018 interview with actor Andre Holland, who's starring in a new radio adaptation of Shakespeare's \"Richard II.\" His "}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Well, who was that - which part - which member of your family was it named after?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Bessemer is sort of a suburb of Birmingham, Ala. It's about half an hour south of Birmingham. And I grew up in a pretty small town, small community surrounded by, you know, cousins and aunts and"}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 25, "text": "And what did he do that was worthy of having a street named after him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My great uncle lived on that road - Mozell Holland (ph)."}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 26, "text": "So it sounds like you had a really big extended family in the town where you grew up. A lot of African Americans from the South, particularly places like Alabama - once they could - decided to go to the North, where there might be more opportunity. Were any members of your family part of the Great Migration north?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not many people lived down on that end of the community, but he and about two or three others lived down there. So, yeah. And it was kind of a beautiful childhood, as I look back on it - a lot of time"}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 27, "text": "I wonder how much of a conscious decision that was, like if they asked themselves, should we stay or should we go?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My father had three older brothers, all of whom moved to New York City as soon as they finished high school and took jobs up there. On my mother's side, there were several people who moved to Ohio - t"}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 28, "text": "Is there an example you could share?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I'm not sure. I mean, I think - I know in the case of my family, you know, my grandparents as I was - when I was growing up, both my grandparents lived with us. My grandmother had cancer, and my"}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 29, "text": "That must've had a big effect on you if you still have that Valentine's card.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "being - I was in fourth grade. And I remember the first time I sort of had a crush on a girl. And Valentine's Day is coming around, and when we - our teacher had told us to go out and get Valentine's "}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 30, "text": "I'm sorry. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, I do. I do. And it did. And yeah - and there are a lot of things like that. I remember - yeah, not to get too - but there were - I remember also there was - I had a cousin who I was very c"}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 31, "text": "Gee.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. But the store owner was also my baseball coach..."}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 32, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Which - yeah, so there's always been - down where I grew up - this, like, really kind of complicated..."}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 33, "text": "Was the baseball coach white?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Friction between people in the community that I grew up in, the white people who also sort of share that same community or, you know, the community sort of adjacent to it. There's always been this "}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 34, "text": "Was the school that you went to, where you got that Valentine - that horrible Valentine - was that an integrated school?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Oh, wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "so it was meant to be integrated. But it actually - there were two Black students at the school, myself and another..."}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 36, "text": "Why did your parents choose to send you to that school?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Another guy. Yeah."}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 37, "text": "I'm still processing that your baseball coach shot your cousin in the back. What was your relationship like with the baseball coach after that? I can't imagine being coached by him after he shot your cousin.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it was - the public schools that I was zoned for, they weren't good. They were quite dangerous. And I went to that public school for a year. And in that year, I think I maybe brought a b"}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 38, "text": "Was the coach ever punished?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I wasn't. I didn't play any more on that team. We ended up - I ended up playing someplace else, but I still saw him around. You know, we - I played baseball all the time growing up. And so I - y"}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 39, "text": "Wow. That must've been really frightening for you, no?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't believe so. I mean, this was many years ago. And, you know, I was 17 at the time, but I don't believe he ever was punished."}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 40, "text": "You held onto it but", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it - you know, it was. But what - this is the interesting thing, Terry, is that I'm learning about myself - is that, you know, it was frightening. But I think that I got very good at putting tho"}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 41, "text": "tucked it away.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it - you know, it was. But what - this is the interesting thing, Terry, is that I'm learning about myself - is that, you know, it was frightening. But I think that I got very good at putting tho"}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 42, "text": "Yeah, yeah, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 43, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I hid it, you know what I mean? I hid it and - so that nobody else could see it."}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 44, "text": "Has the stage been - the stage and in front of a camera been safe places for you to express feelings that you never felt comfortable expressing in real life and to draw on experiences that you kept tucked away?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2018 interview with actor Andre Holland, who co-starred in \"Moonlight\" and \"Selma.\""}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 45, "text": "Like expressing Othello's rage.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Absolutely. And this play I'm doing right now - there's an opportunity to express a lot of that, which is really uncomfortable for me. But I'm doing my best to go to those places and..."}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 46, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 47, "text": "In the movie \"Selma\" about the civil rights movement, you played Andrew Young, who had been the executive director of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference, later became a congressman from Georgia, mayor of Atlanta. Your mother worked for him, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. His rage and his grief and, I think, also - you know, and I think also his - that experience of - I mean, Othello's a guy who, you know, has assimilated into a society that's not his own. And"}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 48, "text": "Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, she worked - actually, he shared an office with another gentleman. And so she worked with that gentleman but got to know Andrew Young quite well..."}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 49, "text": "So did she tell you a lot of stories about the civil rights movement?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...During the voter education project."}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 50, "text": "That's the church that was dynamited by white racists. Were they Klan members or just...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, she and my dad both did. Yeah, in fact, my family owns a - and has owned for quite some time - a funeral home called Poole Funeral Chapel that is adjacent to the Sixteenth Street B"}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 51, "text": "...Unaffiliated racists? OK", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. yeah."}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 52, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. yeah."}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 53, "text": "And four girls.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Think so, yeah, (unintelligible)."}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 54, "text": "Like, a bunch of people were injured, but four girls, four young girls were killed in that bombing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 55, "text": "It's one of the, like, really infamous incidents of the civil rights era. So anyway - so your family had a funeral home across the street from that. Were the girls buried in that funeral home?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 56, "text": "Sure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One of them. One of them was. And I'm not sure which one it was, so I don't want to misspeak."}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 57, "text": "That's an amazing story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, one certainly was. And my Uncle Ernest, who ran the funeral home - you know, he always told stories about the civil rights movement. And my dad did as well. I mean, you know, everybody did. Like"}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 58, "text": "Were there any things in the movie \"Selma\" that you feel like your family had experienced firsthand? I don't know if they were in those marches or not.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "889742845", "date": "2020-07-10", "guest": "Miriam Hyman", "title": "Actor Andr\u00e9 Holland Explores: 'Where I Fit, How I Fit, If I Fit'", "question_index": 59, "text": "So given your family's activity in the voting rights movement, is voting really important to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, my - both my parents - when Dr. King, and Reverend Abernathy and Andrew Young and Shuttlesworth and all these guys were organizing the Birmingham boycotts after so many people had been"}
{"id": "891848562", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Charlize Theron", "title": "Charlize Theron Reflects On Growing Up In South Africa During The Apartheid Era", "question_index": 0, "text": "You've talked about in other interviews how your first audition ended up being with a sexual harasser. It was, like - you were told by, I think, like, a modeling agency who knew that you wanted to act, they suggested you go on this audition. It was a Saturday evening that you were supposed to meet the producer or director...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, editor of the website TV Worth Watching, sitting in for Terry Gross. Today's first guest, Charlize Theron, stars in the new Netflix movie \"The Old Guard,\" playi"}
{"id": "891848562", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Charlize Theron", "title": "Charlize Theron Reflects On Growing Up In South Africa During The Apartheid Era", "question_index": 1, "text": "...At his home. He opened the door, and he was wearing pajamas and had been drinking.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Director, yeah."}
{"id": "891848562", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Charlize Theron", "title": "Charlize Theron Reflects On Growing Up In South Africa During The Apartheid Era", "question_index": 2, "text": "So this was before today's level of public awareness. This was before the #MeToo movement. It was before you had any reason to expect that it would be not the harasser who faced consequences, but you if you went public about it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "891848562", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Charlize Theron", "title": "Charlize Theron Reflects On Growing Up In South Africa During The Apartheid Era", "question_index": 3, "text": "So can you describe what it was like to have to react on the spot when you saw the position he was in - in his pajamas - and then instead of having you, like, read for your audition, he touched your knee? How do you know what to do in that moment?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "891848562", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Charlize Theron", "title": "Charlize Theron Reflects On Growing Up In South Africa During The Apartheid Era", "question_index": 4, "text": "He's a busy man. Maybe his time is - right. That's the only time he has. So when you apologized to him, what did you say? Do you remember?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You don't. You don't. And I think for people who have not experienced sexual harassment, it's a very difficult thing to wrap their head around. A woman yesterday - we were doing a press junket - and a"}
{"id": "891848562", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Charlize Theron", "title": "Charlize Theron Reflects On Growing Up In South Africa During The Apartheid Era", "question_index": 5, "text": "You are obviously still not divulging the name of the director, which I understand. But tell us, in your words, why you're not disclosing who it was.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't even think it was like a specific apology. But I remember saying I'm sorry when I was trying to leave and that I made it - like, the apology about I'm sorry that I have to leave because I was "}
{"id": "891848562", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Charlize Theron", "title": "Charlize Theron Reflects On Growing Up In South Africa During The Apartheid Era", "question_index": 6, "text": "Oh. I didn't know that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I actually did disclose his name."}
{"id": "891848562", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Charlize Theron", "title": "Charlize Theron Reflects On Growing Up In South Africa During The Apartheid Era", "question_index": 7, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You don't know that because every time I disclosed his name, the journalist made the decision to not write his name."}
{"id": "891848562", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Charlize Theron", "title": "Charlize Theron Reflects On Growing Up In South Africa During The Apartheid Era", "question_index": 8, "text": "Understood. Was that incident that you mentioned with a director the only time you faced sexual harassment in the movie industry, to the extent that you're comfortable talking about this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it goes to show just how deeply systemic this problem is. I remember the first time somebody asked me about, like, if I ever had a casting couch experience, and I openly shared the experience and "}
{"id": "891848562", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Charlize Theron", "title": "Charlize Theron Reflects On Growing Up In South Africa During The Apartheid Era", "question_index": 9, "text": "You sound to me like you do not have an accent. You sound like you were born in America. You grew up in South Africa on a farm. Describe the farm for us.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2019 interview with Charlize Theron. She stars as an immortal superhero in the new Netflix movie \"The Old Guard,\" which premiered last week."}
{"id": "891848562", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Charlize Theron", "title": "Charlize Theron Reflects On Growing Up In South Africa During The Apartheid Era", "question_index": 10, "text": "So you grew up during the apartheid era.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's what we call in South Africa a smallholding. And so it was around, I think, 25, 30 acres. My parents bought the land because they had a road construction company, and they needed the land f"}
{"id": "891848562", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Charlize Theron", "title": "Charlize Theron Reflects On Growing Up In South Africa During The Apartheid Era", "question_index": 11, "text": "Were you exposed to Black people during that era? I mean, it was apartheid. I don't know if you even came in contact with people who weren't white.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "891848562", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Charlize Theron", "title": "Charlize Theron Reflects On Growing Up In South Africa During The Apartheid Era", "question_index": 12, "text": "What were you taught about race in school?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So on our farm, all of the workers, everybody who worked in the company - and it was a pretty substantial company - all lived on the farm. So my whole childhood, I was raised with Xhosas and Zulus and"}
{"id": "891848562", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Charlize Theron", "title": "Charlize Theron Reflects On Growing Up In South Africa During The Apartheid Era", "question_index": 13, "text": "And can you tell us more about the trauma for you and what you figured out later about how you, as a white person, as an empowered person, were traumatized by apartheid?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "History was leaning very much into our white history. The heroes of our story of our founding fathers were all white. And even though very much - like, I find in our culture, this climate that we're i"}
{"id": "891848562", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Charlize Theron", "title": "Charlize Theron Reflects On Growing Up In South Africa During The Apartheid Era", "question_index": 14, "text": "So this is another South Africa question. During the last years of apartheid, there was a cultural boycott. A lot of performers weren't going there. There were a lot of, like, recordings and books that weren't available, either because of the boycott against apartheid or because the government didn't allow it in - because they were afraid that, as all, you know, authoritarian governments are afraid that it will open people's minds and that will work against the authoritarian government.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a lot to reconcile with when you realize that you benefited under a administration, a nation, a country because you had the right skin color. I benefited. My life was more comfortable because of "}
{"id": "891848562", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Charlize Theron", "title": "Charlize Theron Reflects On Growing Up In South Africa During The Apartheid Era", "question_index": 15, "text": "What were some of the things you did not have access to, either because of the boycott or because of the government?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "891848562", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Charlize Theron", "title": "Charlize Theron Reflects On Growing Up In South Africa During The Apartheid Era", "question_index": 16, "text": "How old were you when you left, and why did you decide to leave then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had never seen a live performance. Like, I'd never gone to see a rock concert or a musician play live until I was living in Europe. I was 16 when I went to my first concert. So, yeah, nobody really "}
{"id": "891848562", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Charlize Theron", "title": "Charlize Theron Reflects On Growing Up In South Africa During The Apartheid Era", "question_index": 17, "text": "You mentioned your father passed away. This is a part of the story that I know you don't - I think you might not want to talk about. So I'll just mention what happened and you can tell me if you'd like to talk about it or if you'd prefer not to. Your father came home drunk one night and shot at you and your mother. She got her gun and shot and killed him. And that's how he died. I don't know if you're comfortable talking about that or not.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's conversation from last year with actress Charlize Theron. She stars in the new Netflix movie \"The Old Guard,\" play"}
{"id": "891848562", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Charlize Theron", "title": "Charlize Theron Reflects On Growing Up In South Africa During The Apartheid Era", "question_index": 18, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "891848562", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Charlize Theron", "title": "Charlize Theron Reflects On Growing Up In South Africa During The Apartheid Era", "question_index": 19, "text": "Did you think that you and/or your mother would die?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No - yeah. Yeah, listen. I am. I think a lot of my - just any reluctancy that anybody has ever heard is just that this is usually the headline that people walk away from. And I think what's frustratin"}
{"id": "891848562", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Charlize Theron", "title": "Charlize Theron Reflects On Growing Up In South Africa During The Apartheid Era", "question_index": 20, "text": "So what do you do after a shooting like that? Did you call the police?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That night? Yes. No, I really believed that was it, yes."}
{"id": "891848562", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Charlize Theron", "title": "Charlize Theron Reflects On Growing Up In South Africa During The Apartheid Era", "question_index": 21, "text": "How do you mourn your father when your father tried to kill you and your mother? I mean, what is that mourning process like? Did you feel any grief?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I - your body goes into automatic in a strange way. I just remember my mom saying, you have to run to the neighbors. You have to run to the neighbors. And I was in my pajamas. I was barefoot. And I ju"}
{"id": "891848562", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Charlize Theron", "title": "Charlize Theron Reflects On Growing Up In South Africa During The Apartheid Era", "question_index": 22, "text": "Legal things or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, for me, it was a long one. My mom was incredibly strong because I - that's just kind of the - she just has a quality about her where she is - I feel like she knew that she had to be that for"}
{"id": "891848562", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Charlize Theron", "title": "Charlize Theron Reflects On Growing Up In South Africa During The Apartheid Era", "question_index": 23, "text": "And I should mention, she was acquitted self - on self-defense, so.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. And..."}
{"id": "891848562", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Charlize Theron", "title": "Charlize Theron Reflects On Growing Up In South Africa During The Apartheid Era", "question_index": 24, "text": "I'm thinking about how strong your mother was that she - you know, because you just told her - she encouraged you to leave after you won the modeling competition and to go to Italy and to be abroad and maybe stay abroad. And considering what she was going through after that, that just seems like so strong of her and so protective of you and showing such love for you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yeah."}
{"id": "891848562", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Charlize Theron", "title": "Charlize Theron Reflects On Growing Up In South Africa During The Apartheid Era", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well, she prevented you from being the daughter of the woman who shot her father.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's incredible. You know, now that I have my own two daughters and I - just even trying to wrap my head around that idea of what she did, with my own kids, it's tremendous what my mother did and the "}
{"id": "891848562", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Charlize Theron", "title": "Charlize Theron Reflects On Growing Up In South Africa During The Apartheid Era", "question_index": 26, "text": "Because no one would know when you went to Italy. No one needed to know about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, she is very much..."}
{"id": "891848562", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Charlize Theron", "title": "Charlize Theron Reflects On Growing Up In South Africa During The Apartheid Era", "question_index": 27, "text": "When did your mother move to the U.S.?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nobody knew. Nobody knew for a really - I mean, nobody knew until somebody found the story. I, for years, just never shared the story with anybody."}
{"id": "891848562", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Charlize Theron", "title": "Charlize Theron Reflects On Growing Up In South Africa During The Apartheid Era", "question_index": 28, "text": "You're very close now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she would always come and visit. But she's been living here full-time for the last 14 years, 15 years."}
{"id": "891848562", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Charlize Theron", "title": "Charlize Theron Reflects On Growing Up In South Africa During The Apartheid Era", "question_index": 29, "text": "That's so great. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Yes, I mean, she lives, like, two minutes away from me. And she co-parents with me. She's a huge part of raising my girls. And, you know, it's - she is just a really cool person. If she wasn't my mo"}
{"id": "891848562", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Charlize Theron", "title": "Charlize Theron Reflects On Growing Up In South Africa During The Apartheid Era", "question_index": 30, "text": "Well, Charlize Theron, I have to say, you have really led an eventful life. What a life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that really sums up who my mom is."}
{"id": "891848562", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Charlize Theron", "title": "Charlize Theron Reflects On Growing Up In South Africa During The Apartheid Era", "question_index": 31, "text": "I want to thank you for sharing some of your life with us. Thank you so much for coming to our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've been very fortunate, very fortunate."}
{"id": "891853649", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Danny Trejo", "title": "Danny Trejo On Acting, Addiction And Playing 'The Mean Chicano Dude'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Danny Trejo, welcome to FRESH AIR. In movie roles, you're famous for being really tough and very menacing when you need to be.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That character arc didn't end well. Tortuga was decapitated, with his head mounted on a living tortoise. Danny Trejo, however, has thrived. And now his story is being told in the new documentary about"}
{"id": "891853649", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Danny Trejo", "title": "Danny Trejo On Acting, Addiction And Playing 'The Mean Chicano Dude'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Was that an asset for you in prison? Was - is that something...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "891853649", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Danny Trejo", "title": "Danny Trejo On Acting, Addiction And Playing 'The Mean Chicano Dude'", "question_index": 2, "text": "...You knew how to use when you were in prison?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "891853649", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Danny Trejo", "title": "Danny Trejo On Acting, Addiction And Playing 'The Mean Chicano Dude'", "question_index": 3, "text": "So how did you turn yourself into a convincing predator so that you wouldn't be prey?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. There's two types of people in prison. There's predator and prey. You have to decide every day which you're going to be. And it's that simple."}
{"id": "891853649", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Danny Trejo", "title": "Danny Trejo On Acting, Addiction And Playing 'The Mean Chicano Dude'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Yes I have. That's a good answer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Have you ever seen me?"}
{"id": "891853649", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Danny Trejo", "title": "Danny Trejo On Acting, Addiction And Playing 'The Mean Chicano Dude'", "question_index": 5, "text": "So you came up through the system, so you knew.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But you go to prison the first time because now it's so easy to go to prison your first time arrested. And so now when you go to prison, all of a sudden, you have not been brought up in this lifestyle"}
{"id": "891853649", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Danny Trejo", "title": "Danny Trejo On Acting, Addiction And Playing 'The Mean Chicano Dude'", "question_index": 6, "text": "You knew what to do. OK, so something that really helped you in your later life as an actor - it helped get you into acting - is that you became a lightweight and welterweight champion in prison. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "891853649", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Danny Trejo", "title": "Danny Trejo On Acting, Addiction And Playing 'The Mean Chicano Dude'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Why do you think you were able to give up drugs and stay out of prison eventually? Like, how old were you when that happened, and what was the turning point for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, boxing. My uncle started boxing in Golden Gloves, and I was his sparring partner - punching bag. And so I either had to learn how to fight or get my head kicked in. And he - you know, he taught "}
{"id": "891853649", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Danny Trejo", "title": "Danny Trejo On Acting, Addiction And Playing 'The Mean Chicano Dude'", "question_index": 8, "text": "What were you accused of?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Cinco de Mayo in 1968. Me, Ray Pacheco, Henry Quijada - I can say that because I think they were both killed in robberies. We were involved in a prison riot. I went to the hole and expected to go to t"}
{"id": "891853649", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Danny Trejo", "title": "Danny Trejo On Acting, Addiction And Playing 'The Mean Chicano Dude'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Was it hard to learn kind of emotional control, like, controlling anger and things like that coming of age in prison?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It's like he fooled me and gave me the rest of my life."}
{"id": "891853649", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Danny Trejo", "title": "Danny Trejo On Acting, Addiction And Playing 'The Mean Chicano Dude'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Wow, OK, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Anger is probably something you don't have in prison. You don't have anger. You can't afford to get mad. If it is worth your time, then you go directly to rage. You understand?"}
{"id": "891853649", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Danny Trejo", "title": "Danny Trejo On Acting, Addiction And Playing 'The Mean Chicano Dude'", "question_index": 11, "text": "It's quite an equation to have to go through all the time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I can remember. It's like, I've watched attorneys argue, and I'm waiting for somebody to get socked, you know? Wait a minute. You going to sock him, you know? And - because in prison, you do"}
{"id": "891853649", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Danny Trejo", "title": "Danny Trejo On Acting, Addiction And Playing 'The Mean Chicano Dude'", "question_index": 12, "text": "So when you got out of prison, you couldn't go from zero to rage...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it only takes a split second."}
{"id": "891853649", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Danny Trejo", "title": "Danny Trejo On Acting, Addiction And Playing 'The Mean Chicano Dude'", "question_index": 13, "text": "...Because, you know, murder isn't the bottom line when you're -", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "891853649", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Danny Trejo", "title": "Danny Trejo On Acting, Addiction And Playing 'The Mean Chicano Dude'", "question_index": 14, "text": "it's not the way to settle an argument when you're out of prison.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "891853649", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Danny Trejo", "title": "Danny Trejo On Acting, Addiction And Playing 'The Mean Chicano Dude'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Rage is not - you know, it's not always the most effective way of going about things, particularly out of prison. So how did you know - learn how to control that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I - yeah, but it..."}
{"id": "891853649", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Danny Trejo", "title": "Danny Trejo On Acting, Addiction And Playing 'The Mean Chicano Dude'", "question_index": 16, "text": "So I'm interested in hearing your story about how you went from coming-of-age in prison to then being - you know, getting out, eventually becoming a youth drug counselor - work that you're still doing - and having a movie career. I mean, it's not like you were studying acting", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I had a really good support system around me. And, you know, I think that's the main thing coming out of a prison - it's like, if you're by yourself, then you're still alone. And it's like I h"}
{"id": "891853649", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Danny Trejo", "title": "Danny Trejo On Acting, Addiction And Playing 'The Mean Chicano Dude'", "question_index": 17, "text": "while you were in prison.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I had a really good support system around me. And, you know, I think that's the main thing coming out of a prison - it's like, if you're by yourself, then you're still alone. And it's like I h"}
{"id": "891853649", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Danny Trejo", "title": "Danny Trejo On Acting, Addiction And Playing 'The Mean Chicano Dude'", "question_index": 18, "text": "So you're saying you did learn how to act in prison.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you have to stand there and make everybody think you like it. You know, you can't even sweat. It's like you're standing there. You just got this smirk on your face, like yeah, yeah, we're going to d"}
{"id": "891853649", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Danny Trejo", "title": "Danny Trejo On Acting, Addiction And Playing 'The Mean Chicano Dude'", "question_index": 19, "text": "Right. Right. So you didn't need to study the method or Stanislavski or anything to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "891853649", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Danny Trejo", "title": "Danny Trejo On Acting, Addiction And Playing 'The Mean Chicano Dude'", "question_index": 20, "text": "...To find that out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Yeah..."}
{"id": "891853649", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Danny Trejo", "title": "Danny Trejo On Acting, Addiction And Playing 'The Mean Chicano Dude'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Is that a person?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "..."}
{"id": "891853649", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Danny Trejo", "title": "Danny Trejo On Acting, Addiction And Playing 'The Mean Chicano Dude'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Yeah. OK. That's great. So let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "891853649", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Danny Trejo", "title": "Danny Trejo On Acting, Addiction And Playing 'The Mean Chicano Dude'", "question_index": 23, "text": "...Some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Danny Trejo. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "891853649", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Danny Trejo", "title": "Danny Trejo On Acting, Addiction And Playing 'The Mean Chicano Dude'", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. If you're just joining us, my guest is Danny Trejo - an actor, a drug counselor and somebody who spent his formative years in prison. And on screen, he's played a lot of very, very tough people", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "891853649", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Danny Trejo", "title": "Danny Trejo On Acting, Addiction And Playing 'The Mean Chicano Dude'", "question_index": 25, "text": ", including in movies like \"Machete\" and \"Desperado,\" and in the TV series \"Breaking Bad\" and \"Sons Of Anarchy\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "891853649", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Danny Trejo", "title": "Danny Trejo On Acting, Addiction And Playing 'The Mean Chicano Dude'", "question_index": 26, "text": "\"Spy Kids.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Spy Kids.\""}
{"id": "891853649", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Danny Trejo", "title": "Danny Trejo On Acting, Addiction And Playing 'The Mean Chicano Dude'", "question_index": 27, "text": "That's right. So tell us the story of how you were first cast in a movie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Spy Kids.\""}
{"id": "891853649", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Danny Trejo", "title": "Danny Trejo On Acting, Addiction And Playing 'The Mean Chicano Dude'", "question_index": 28, "text": "Oh, W-R-I-T-S. Like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. The way I got in the movie business - you know, I was running around, trying to be an extra. They used to give you 50 bucks for being an extra. I ran into a good friend of mine, a guy named Eddie "}
{"id": "891853649", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Danny Trejo", "title": "Danny Trejo On Acting, Addiction And Playing 'The Mean Chicano Dude'", "question_index": 29, "text": "Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Writs. You know, a writ to get you out of prison..."}
{"id": "891853649", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Danny Trejo", "title": "Danny Trejo On Acting, Addiction And Playing 'The Mean Chicano Dude'", "question_index": 30, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Like a writ of habeas corpus. He would charge people, and he would get their documents. And he'd look at them. And he'd go, hey, wait a minute. Oh, right here. They violated your blah, blah, blah, "}
{"id": "891853649", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Danny Trejo", "title": "Danny Trejo On Acting, Addiction And Playing 'The Mean Chicano Dude'", "question_index": 31, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, 'cause I - 320 a day? That was more money I was making a week. You know, I was a drug counselor, right? And he goes, no, you have to be real careful, Danny. Actor's real high-strung. He migh"}
{"id": "891853649", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Danny Trejo", "title": "Danny Trejo On Acting, Addiction And Playing 'The Mean Chicano Dude'", "question_index": 32, "text": "How did he do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I started training Eric Roberts how to box."}
{"id": "891853649", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Danny Trejo", "title": "Danny Trejo On Acting, Addiction And Playing 'The Mean Chicano Dude'", "question_index": 33, "text": "He was the director of the film.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then Andrey Konchalovskiy had Eric pick..."}
{"id": "891853649", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Danny Trejo", "title": "Danny Trejo On Acting, Addiction And Playing 'The Mean Chicano Dude'", "question_index": 34, "text": "Oh, the elbow patches.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, Andrey Konchalovskiy was the director - very soft-spoken Russian, beautiful man, beautiful man. I mean, he was like - he wore those funny sweaters with the leather on the - you know, on the elbo"}
{"id": "891853649", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Danny Trejo", "title": "Danny Trejo On Acting, Addiction And Playing 'The Mean Chicano Dude'", "question_index": 35, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And so when he saw Eric was listening to me as far as boxing and stuff, he came over, Andrei comes over and says, you be in movie. You fight Eric. And you be my friend - I'll never forget that - sai"}
{"id": "891853649", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Danny Trejo", "title": "Danny Trejo On Acting, Addiction And Playing 'The Mean Chicano Dude'", "question_index": 36, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so - and then I'll never forget - then he leans over and he kisses me on one cheek, kisses me or the other cheek. And then he walks away. I told Eddie Bunker, Eddie, I'm going to train that kid fo"}
{"id": "891853649", "date": "2020-07-17", "guest": "Danny Trejo", "title": "Danny Trejo On Acting, Addiction And Playing 'The Mean Chicano Dude'", "question_index": 37, "text": "Well, it's been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "892988572", "date": "2020-07-20", "guest": "John Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Civil Rights Leader Rep. John Lewis", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're going to listen back to the interview I recorded with John Lewis that was first broadcast on January 19, 2009. It was Martin Luther King Day and the day before the inauguration of America's first African American president, Barack Obama. In the 1960s, Lewis repeatedly risked his life working to end segregation and gain voting rights for Black people in the South. When he was growing up in Alabama, there was one county whose population was 80% African American, but there wasn't a single registered Black voter. Here's our interview.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "892988572", "date": "2020-07-20", "guest": "John Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Civil Rights Leader Rep. John Lewis", "question_index": 1, "text": "Congressman Lewis, welcome to FRESH AIR, and thank you so much for joining us. When you were a young man, were you ever challenged at the polls? Did you have a hard time registering, or did anyone ever try to prevent you from voting?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "892988572", "date": "2020-07-20", "guest": "John Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Civil Rights Leader Rep. John Lewis", "question_index": 2, "text": "Why was it impossible?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I was growing up in rural Alabama, it was impossible for me to register to vote. I did not become a registered voter until I moved to Tennessee, to Nashville as a student."}
{"id": "892988572", "date": "2020-07-20", "guest": "John Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Civil Rights Leader Rep. John Lewis", "question_index": 3, "text": "Your parents were sharecroppers. Now...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Black men and women were not allowed to register to vote. My own mother, my own father, my grandfather and my uncles and aunts could not register to vote because each time they attempted to register t"}
{"id": "892988572", "date": "2020-07-20", "guest": "John Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Civil Rights Leader Rep. John Lewis", "question_index": 4, "text": "Now, because of that, did you - did your parents tell you not to bother to try to vote because it would be dangerous, they might lose their farm?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mother and father and many of my relatives had been sharecroppers. They had been tenant farmers, like so many people in South. They knew the stories that had occurred. They knew places in Alabama w"}
{"id": "892988572", "date": "2020-07-20", "guest": "John Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Civil Rights Leader Rep. John Lewis", "question_index": 5, "text": "One of the more dramatic moments of the civil rights movement was a march that you helped lead in 1965 of about 600 people. The march was supposed to be from Selma to Montgomery, Ala., demanding voting rights. But the marchers were stopped soon after you started marching. And you were beaten by the police. Would you talk first a little bit about the goal of that march?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My parents told me in the very beginning - as a young child when I raised the question about segregation and racial discrimination, they told me not to get in the way, not to get in trouble, not to ma"}
{"id": "892988572", "date": "2020-07-20", "guest": "John Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Civil Rights Leader Rep. John Lewis", "question_index": 6, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded with John Lewis in 2009. We'll continue the interview after a break and hear how he started working with Martin Luther King. And Maureen Corrigan will review a new novel set during the 1918 flu pandemic by Emma Donoghue, who also wrote the novel \"Room,\" which was adapted into a film of the same name. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In 1965, the attempted march from Selma to Montgomery on March 7 was planned to dramatize to the state of Alabama and to the nation that people of color wanted to register to vote. In Selma, you could"}
{"id": "892988572", "date": "2020-07-20", "guest": "John Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Civil Rights Leader Rep. John Lewis", "question_index": 7, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with John Lewis in 2009. When we left off, he was talking about leading the voting rights march from Selma to Montgomery, Ala., on March 7, 1965, a march that quickly ended when state troopers attacked the demonstrators on the Edmund Pettus Bridge in Selma. That day became known as Bloody Sunday. It led to the passage of the Voting Rights Act five months later.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In 1965, the attempted march from Selma to Montgomery on March 7 was planned to dramatize to the state of Alabama and to the nation that people of color wanted to register to vote. In Selma, you could"}
{"id": "892988572", "date": "2020-07-20", "guest": "John Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Civil Rights Leader Rep. John Lewis", "question_index": 8, "text": "What was the impact, do you think, of that march on the actual passage of the Voting Rights Act?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In 1965, the attempted march from Selma to Montgomery on March 7 was planned to dramatize to the state of Alabama and to the nation that people of color wanted to register to vote. In Selma, you could"}
{"id": "892988572", "date": "2020-07-20", "guest": "John Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Civil Rights Leader Rep. John Lewis", "question_index": 9, "text": "Can you talk a little bit about how your mindset changed to go from what your parents told you, which was don't make trouble, it's too risky - to making a lot of trouble, to leading marches, to be willing to get beaten on the head and knocked unconscious to stand up for what you thought was right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The march created a sense of righteous indignation among the American people. When they saw the photographs, when they read the stories, when they heard the news on the radio or watched it on televisi"}
{"id": "892988572", "date": "2020-07-20", "guest": "John Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Civil Rights Leader Rep. John Lewis", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, what was he saying on the radio?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, growing up, I saw segregation. I saw racial discrimination. I saw those signs that said white men, colored men, white women, colored women, white waiting - and I didn't like it. I would ask my m"}
{"id": "892988572", "date": "2020-07-20", "guest": "John Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Civil Rights Leader Rep. John Lewis", "question_index": 11, "text": "Was it a sermon or something or a speech? Was it a sermon or a speech?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was saying that we must not just be concerned..."}
{"id": "892988572", "date": "2020-07-20", "guest": "John Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Civil Rights Leader Rep. John Lewis", "question_index": 12, "text": "Your memoir.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a speech but also a sermon. He was speaking at a church in Montgomery. And he was saying, in effect, that we must not just be concerned about the pearly gates and the streets with milk and hone"}
{"id": "892988572", "date": "2020-07-20", "guest": "John Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Civil Rights Leader Rep. John Lewis", "question_index": 13, "text": "Now, you describe the difficulty your parents had accepting the risks that you were taking as a civil rights activist. As an activist, did you find it was difficult to convince the older generation to join up with the movement? Was it easier to convince younger people than older people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And they gave me a library card after the program was over. And I was inspired. I studied the philosophy and the discipline of nonviolence in Nashville as a student. And I staged a sitting-in in the f"}
{"id": "892988572", "date": "2020-07-20", "guest": "John Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Civil Rights Leader Rep. John Lewis", "question_index": 14, "text": "Give me a sense of what you'd say.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was much easier to convince younger people, to convince students, whether they were in high school or college students. In the South during that period, there was so much fear. But there were other"}
{"id": "892988572", "date": "2020-07-20", "guest": "John Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Civil Rights Leader Rep. John Lewis", "question_index": 15, "text": "We're listening to my 2009 interview with the late civil rights activist and congressman John Lewis. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We would say to people, you know, you've been living here for 40 years, for 50 years. Your street is not paved. You have a dirt road. You don't have clean water. If you want to change that, you must r"}
{"id": "892988572", "date": "2020-07-20", "guest": "John Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Civil Rights Leader Rep. John Lewis", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with John Lewis. It was first broadcast on January 19, 2009. It was Martin Luther King Day and the day before the inauguration of America's first African American president, Barack Obama.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We would say to people, you know, you've been living here for 40 years, for 50 years. Your street is not paved. You have a dirt road. You don't have clean water. If you want to change that, you must r"}
{"id": "892988572", "date": "2020-07-20", "guest": "John Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Civil Rights Leader Rep. John Lewis", "question_index": 17, "text": "I'd love to hear the story of how you first met Reverend King.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We would say to people, you know, you've been living here for 40 years, for 50 years. Your street is not paved. You have a dirt road. You don't have clean water. If you want to change that, you must r"}
{"id": "892988572", "date": "2020-07-20", "guest": "John Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Civil Rights Leader Rep. John Lewis", "question_index": 18, "text": "So what did he do? Did he try to encourage you to keep trying to get into that white college? Or did he say, forget college; just come join the movement, work with me?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In 1957, when I finished high school, I was 17 years old. This was two years after the Montgomery Bus Boycott, two years after Rosa Parks had taken her seat. And Dr. King had emerged as a national lea"}
{"id": "892988572", "date": "2020-07-20", "guest": "John Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Civil Rights Leader Rep. John Lewis", "question_index": 19, "text": "And did other things in the civil rights movement instead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, Martin Luther King Jr. said to me, we want to help. If you want to go to Troy State, we will help you. We would hire Fred Gray as the lawyer to file a suit against Troy State. But he went on to sa"}
{"id": "892988572", "date": "2020-07-20", "guest": "John Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Civil Rights Leader Rep. John Lewis", "question_index": 20, "text": "What impact did his assassination have on you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I continued the sit-ins, got on the Freedom Rides and became an active participant, not just in Nashville but throughout the American South."}
{"id": "892988572", "date": "2020-07-20", "guest": "John Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Civil Rights Leader Rep. John Lewis", "question_index": 21, "text": "I want to quote something that you wrote in an op-ed piece in October of 2003. And this was about gay rights and the right for gay people to marry. You wrote, \"I have fought too hard and too long against discrimination based on race and color not to stand up against discrimination based on sexual orientation. I've heard the reasons for opposing civil marriage for same-sex couples, cut through the distractions, and they stink of the same fear, hatred and intolerance I have known in racism and bigotry.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mourned, and I cried like millions of our citizens did. I heard that he had been assassinated. I was with Robert Kennedy in Indianapolis, Ind., campaigning with him. But somehow I said to myself, I'"}
{"id": "892988572", "date": "2020-07-20", "guest": "John Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Civil Rights Leader Rep. John Lewis", "question_index": 22, "text": "Are you concerned that now that Barack Obama is about to become president that a lot of people might be thinking - whew, well, solved the racism problem - glad that's over, don't have to worry about that anymore, don't have to take that into account anymore?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Today, I think more than never before, we have to speak up and speak out to end discrimination based on sexual orientation. Dr. King used to say when people talked about Blacks and whites falling in l"}
{"id": "892988572", "date": "2020-07-20", "guest": "John Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Civil Rights Leader Rep. John Lewis", "question_index": 23, "text": "Of all the people who have passed on who you were close to, who are some of the people who you were - who you most wish were here today to witness the inauguration of America's first African American president?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I am concerned that there are some feelings in certain quarters and some corners that - what do people of color want now? We elected Barack Obama as president - It's over. People talk about the post-r"}
{"id": "892988572", "date": "2020-07-20", "guest": "John Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Civil Rights Leader Rep. John Lewis", "question_index": 24, "text": "Congressman John Lewis, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I wish - I truly wish - there are so many people, many of these just Indigenous people that have stood in those unmovable lines in the heart of the Deep South. Many of the people that were on that"}
{"id": "892988572", "date": "2020-07-20", "guest": "John Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Civil Rights Leader Rep. John Lewis", "question_index": 25, "text": "My interview with Congressman John Lewis was first broadcast on January 19, 2009, the day before the inauguration of Barack Obama. Lewis died of pancreatic cancer on Friday. His death has led to a surge of support in the effort to rename the Edmund Pettus Bridge. The bridge was the site of Bloody Sunday, the day in 1965 when Lewis and scores of other demonstrators he led demanding voting rights were attacked by Alabama state troopers. Edmund Pettus was a Confederate general and a former grand wizard of the Ku Klux Klan. The people who want to remove Pettus' name want to rename the bridge the John Lewis Bridge. After we take a short break, Maureen Corrigan will review a new novel set during the 1918 flu pandemic. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you very much. Thank you."}
{"id": "893011932", "date": "2020-07-20", "guest": "Jl Chestnut", "title": "'Black In Selma' Author Reflects On The Long March Toward Civil Rights", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today we remember civil rights leader and Congressman John Lewis. He died of pancreatic cancer Friday. He was 80. We're going to listen back to my 2009 interview with him. Lewis grew up in Alabama, the son of sharecroppers. He was often called the conscience of Congress. He was elected in 1986 and served until his death, representing Georgia's 5th District, which includes Atlanta. As a young civil rights activist, he was repeatedly beaten by police and white racists and was thrown in jail many times. In 1961, he was one of the original Freedom Riders, integrated teams who challenged segregation by traveling together on buses through the segregated South. He was the founder of SNCC, the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, and went on to become a close associate of Martin Luther King. Lewis was the youngest speaker at the 1963 March on Washington, which ended with King's \"I Have A Dream\" speech. In 1965, Lewis was a leader of the march from Selma to Montgomery, Ala., protesting segregation and demanding voting rights. The march ended soon after it started, when Alabama state troopers attacked the demonstrators on the Edmund Pettus Bridge in Selma in what became known as Bloody Sunday. Lewis was beaten and suffered a cracked skull. The national outrage that followed that tragic spectacle led to the passage of the Voting Rights Act, which was signed into law by Lyndon Johnson on August 6, 1965. Before we hear from John Lewis, we're going to hear some of Bloody Sunday's backstory and listen to an excerpt of my interview with the late J.L. Chestnut, who became the first Black lawyer in Selma, Ala., in 1958. At the time of the march, he was working with the NAACP. He described what Selma was like then for Black people.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "893011932", "date": "2020-07-20", "guest": "Jl Chestnut", "title": "'Black In Selma' Author Reflects On The Long March Toward Civil Rights", "question_index": 1, "text": "You make an interesting point in your book. You say that - we know when you started as a lawyer, there was no Voting Rights Act; there was no Civil Rights Act - so a lot of injustices couldn't be taken to court.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let me give you some flavor of what was going on there. There were only 150 Blacks registered to vote out of a pool of about 15,000. Not one Black - not one in the entire state of Alabama - had ever s"}
{"id": "893011932", "date": "2020-07-20", "guest": "Jl Chestnut", "title": "'Black In Selma' Author Reflects On The Long March Toward Civil Rights", "question_index": 2, "text": "What was your reaction as a, quote, \"local\" when Martin Luther King came to organize in Selma in 1965?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What we hoped to do was to make new law. We didn't expect to win at that level. The NAACP, at that point, were financing a lot of criminal cases which were pregnant with the possibility of establishin"}
{"id": "893011932", "date": "2020-07-20", "guest": "Jl Chestnut", "title": "'Black In Selma' Author Reflects On The Long March Toward Civil Rights", "question_index": 3, "text": "Did you ever get more comfortable with civil disobedience as a tactic for civil rights?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had been somewhat ambivalent about all of the civil rights leaders there. I felt that what they were saying was directed more at the masses than at me. And after all, I had two degrees, too, a"}
{"id": "893011932", "date": "2020-07-20", "guest": "Jl Chestnut", "title": "'Black In Selma' Author Reflects On The Long March Toward Civil Rights", "question_index": 4, "text": "Well, Bloody Sunday on March 7, 1965, happened during a march from Selma to Montgomery to petition George Wallace for the right to vote. The march was broken up violently by state troopers. Would you share some of your memories of that day?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was finally convinced that Martin was correct and the people who were paying me were incorrect. It is not generally known, but you take Bloody Sunday - that started out of a situation where a young "}
{"id": "893011932", "date": "2020-07-20", "guest": "Jl Chestnut", "title": "'Black In Selma' Author Reflects On The Long March Toward Civil Rights", "question_index": 5, "text": "When the Voting Rights Act was actually passed, what were the immediate effects in Selma?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had come over from Mississippi, and I wasn't sure that there would be a march. Martin was in Atlanta preaching at his father's church, and some people in Martin's organization did not think we"}
{"id": "893011932", "date": "2020-07-20", "guest": "Jl Chestnut", "title": "'Black In Selma' Author Reflects On The Long March Toward Civil Rights", "question_index": 6, "text": "I want to thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The immediate effect was that within six weeks - in a six-week span, we went from about 200 registered voters to 9,000. I don't know whether there has been on leap of such proportions in the history o"}
{"id": "893011932", "date": "2020-07-20", "guest": "Jl Chestnut", "title": "'Black In Selma' Author Reflects On The Long March Toward Civil Rights", "question_index": 7, "text": "That was the late J.L. Chestnut, recorded in 1990. He died in 2008 at the age of 77. We'll hear my interview with John Lewis, in which he described his experience on Bloody Sunday, after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm glad to be here."}
{"id": "893470986", "date": "2020-07-21", "guest": "Jim Mccloskey", "title": "An Advocate For The Wrongly Convicted Reflects On Faith, Justice And Innocence", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest Jim McCloskey is part detective, part man of God. While studying at Princeton Theological Seminary planning to become an ordained minister, he did fieldwork at a prison. There, he met a man serving a life sentence for murder, a man who convinced McCloskey he was innocent. McCloskey took a leave from Princeton to work on this case and somehow succeeded although he had no legal background. It led McCloskey to found one of the first innocence projects, Centurion Ministries, dedicated to reopening the cases of men and women unjustly convicted of murder. John Grisham calls McCloskey the dean of all innocence advocates, the exonerator. In McCloskey's new memoir, \"When Truth Is All You Have,\" he writes about his life, the cases he's taken on and how his faith in God was sometimes challenged and how his faith in the justice system was shaken by police who lied on the witness stand, prosecutors who knew and judges who turned a blind eye to the whole thing. Jim McCloskey is now retired but still serving on the board of Centurion Ministries and still working on cases. He's a lay minister. Jim McCloskey, welcome back to FRESH AIR. It is such a great pleasure to talk with you again, and I love your new memoir.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "893470986", "date": "2020-07-21", "guest": "Jim Mccloskey", "title": "An Advocate For The Wrongly Convicted Reflects On Faith, Justice And Innocence", "question_index": 1, "text": "So you were very religious as a child. And then you headed in the opposite direction. You became kind of wild. You served in the military. You had a good-paying job as a - at a consulting company. So you went through these different phases of your life, but then you decided to go to Princeton Theological Seminary in - around 1980. Why did you make that shift in your life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you, Terry. It's great to be here. I'm happy to have returned."}
{"id": "893470986", "date": "2020-07-21", "guest": "Jim Mccloskey", "title": "An Advocate For The Wrongly Convicted Reflects On Faith, Justice And Innocence", "question_index": 2, "text": "That's not exactly what happened, though, because", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I was 37 years old, and I had been in Japan in business for a number of years. And when I came back to the United States and began working for a Philadelphia consulting company by the "}
{"id": "893470986", "date": "2020-07-21", "guest": "Jim Mccloskey", "title": "An Advocate For The Wrongly Convicted Reflects On Faith, Justice And Innocence", "question_index": 3, "text": "you took a detour. For your fieldwork, you asked to be placed at a prison. You became a prison chaplain. And there, you met the first person who led you to do innocence work. And he told you he had done bad things but that he hadn't committed murder. He was convicted when he was 28 and was serving a life sentence. Why did you believe him? - because a lot of people say everyone in prison will tell you that they're innocent.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I was 37 years old, and I had been in Japan in business for a number of years. And when I came back to the United States and began working for a Philadelphia consulting company by the "}
{"id": "893470986", "date": "2020-07-21", "guest": "Jim Mccloskey", "title": "An Advocate For The Wrongly Convicted Reflects On Faith, Justice And Innocence", "question_index": 4, "text": "And he told you that he believed in God but if God was going to help free him, it would have to be through you. And you seemed to take that very seriously.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'd like to put that canard to rest. That's not true - in my experience anyhow. When I was a student chaplain at Trenton State Prison and met Jorge De Los Santos for the first time, there were 4"}
{"id": "893470986", "date": "2020-07-21", "guest": "Jim Mccloskey", "title": "An Advocate For The Wrongly Convicted Reflects On Faith, Justice And Innocence", "question_index": 5, "text": "Yeah. And you succeeded, which is really remarkable. One of the turning points was that a key witness confessed to you that his testimony was a lie. Tell us why he confessed and what he confessed to.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He said, that's not going to work. If you are a real man of faith, you're going to come save me. And that's all there is to it. I have nobody else but you. Well, he got me to thinking. I went back to "}
{"id": "893470986", "date": "2020-07-21", "guest": "Jim Mccloskey", "title": "An Advocate For The Wrongly Convicted Reflects On Faith, Justice And Innocence", "question_index": 6, "text": "Did the prosecutor know that he was giving false testimony?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, his name was Richard Delli Santi, which in Italian means of the saints. And coincidentally, Chiefie's last name was De Los Santos, which in Spanish means of the saints. And I will say this that "}
{"id": "893470986", "date": "2020-07-21", "guest": "Jim Mccloskey", "title": "An Advocate For The Wrongly Convicted Reflects On Faith, Justice And Innocence", "question_index": 7, "text": "What an introduction to the justice system you had - false testimony by somebody who is, like, a pro at it, and then a prosecutor who is in on it and who knew about it and a man serving a life sentence as a result of it. You must have just had this immediate cynicism after that experience.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's no question that he did. At Mr. De Los Santos' trial, under direct examination by the trial prosecutor, the prosecutor asked Richard Delli Santi, have you ever informed in any other case? Are "}
{"id": "893470986", "date": "2020-07-21", "guest": "Jim Mccloskey", "title": "An Advocate For The Wrongly Convicted Reflects On Faith, Justice And Innocence", "question_index": 8, "text": "Let's take a break here. And then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jim McCloskey. And his new memoir is called \"When Truth Is All You Have: A Memoir Of Faith, Justice, Freedom, And The Wrongly Convicted.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I was starting to mature. I was starting to see the system with different eyes than when I first met Chiefie 2 1/2 years earlier. And I got a baptism of fire. I saw firsthand how police and prose"}
{"id": "893470986", "date": "2020-07-21", "guest": "Jim Mccloskey", "title": "An Advocate For The Wrongly Convicted Reflects On Faith, Justice And Innocence", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jim McCloskey, a lay minister and founder of Centurion Ministries, one of the first innocence projects dedicated to exonerating men and women unjustly convicted of murder who are serving life sentences or are on death row. He has a new memoir called \"When Truth Is All You Have.\" There must be such highs and lows in the work that you've done over the past 40 years. I mean, when you succeed in freeing a man or woman who is unjustly convicted, that must be such an exhilarating feeling. But on the other hand, even when you succeed in freeing somebody, it doesn't necessarily mean that they have a good life when they get out. It's so hard for many prisoners to make the transition back into life. I mean, you're coming to the outside world with, like, no money. You don't know what's been going on in the world because you have been - you haven't been living in it. You've been living in a cell for so long. And the first case that you took, the case that inspired you to do this work for 40 years, George De Los Santos, you succeeded in getting him exonerated. But then he had a very hard time when he got out of prison. Tell us what happened.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I was starting to mature. I was starting to see the system with different eyes than when I first met Chiefie 2 1/2 years earlier. And I got a baptism of fire. I saw firsthand how police and prose"}
{"id": "893470986", "date": "2020-07-21", "guest": "Jim Mccloskey", "title": "An Advocate For The Wrongly Convicted Reflects On Faith, Justice And Innocence", "question_index": 10, "text": "I think the fate of George De Los Santos made you realize that you had to keep in touch with people after they were freed, people who you had helped to free, and help them establish their life outside of prison. So that's a whole other aspect of the work that you've done. You even had one of the people who you helped exonerate live with you for a while.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, what happened with Mr. De Los Santos, tragically, was that when we freed him in the summer of '83, within two years, he was back using drugs heavily, descended into his addiction again, wh"}
{"id": "893470986", "date": "2020-07-21", "guest": "Jim Mccloskey", "title": "An Advocate For The Wrongly Convicted Reflects On Faith, Justice And Innocence", "question_index": 11, "text": "You've been very successful with Centurion Ministries. Compare the number of people who you've helped exonerate to the number of people who you failed to exonerate.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. You're absolutely right. Based on our experience at that time - my experience because I was alone at that time with Mr. De Los Santos and then when Kate joined me. We realized that we had another"}
{"id": "893470986", "date": "2020-07-21", "guest": "Jim Mccloskey", "title": "An Advocate For The Wrongly Convicted Reflects On Faith, Justice And Innocence", "question_index": 12, "text": "Wow. That's amazing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, altogether, we've committed and have worked on behalf of 100 people across the United States, including two in Canada. Twenty-one of those 100 are still in progress. So that means we've conclude"}
{"id": "893470986", "date": "2020-07-21", "guest": "Jim Mccloskey", "title": "An Advocate For The Wrongly Convicted Reflects On Faith, Justice And Innocence", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well, let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jim McCloskey, a lay minister and the founder of Centurion Ministries, which works to retry and exonerate and free men and women unjustly convicted of crimes like murder. His new memoir is called \"When Truth Is All You Have.\" We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The other 16 or 17 people we were unsuccessful in freeing for a variety of reasons. Two died while they were in prison. Two were executed. Five we were just unsuccessful in developing new evidence or "}
{"id": "893470986", "date": "2020-07-21", "guest": "Jim Mccloskey", "title": "An Advocate For The Wrongly Convicted Reflects On Faith, Justice And Innocence", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jim McCloskey. He's a lay minister and founder of Centurion Ministries, one of the first innocence projects dedicated to exonerating men and women unjustly convicted of murder or rape who are serving life sentences or are on death row. His new memoir is called \"When Truth Is All You Have.\" The first time I spoke with you on FRESH AIR was in 1992. And you said something that has stuck with me all these years. You were talking about trying to maintain some balance between the urgency of your innocence work and your prayer life. And I want to play a short excerpt of that interview.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The other 16 or 17 people we were unsuccessful in freeing for a variety of reasons. Two died while they were in prison. Two were executed. Five we were just unsuccessful in developing new evidence or "}
{"id": "893470986", "date": "2020-07-21", "guest": "Jim Mccloskey", "title": "An Advocate For The Wrongly Convicted Reflects On Faith, Justice And Innocence", "question_index": 15, "text": "Has the work that you've done challenged or reinforced your faith?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The other 16 or 17 people we were unsuccessful in freeing for a variety of reasons. Two died while they were in prison. Two were executed. Five we were just unsuccessful in developing new evidence or "}
{"id": "893470986", "date": "2020-07-21", "guest": "Jim Mccloskey", "title": "An Advocate For The Wrongly Convicted Reflects On Faith, Justice And Innocence", "question_index": 16, "text": "I really understand what you're saying. You're just so obsessed with your work and with the mission of it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, here's the ironic thing. I like to think that it is the work of Christ and God that I'm doing. But what I've noticed in the last several years is that even though I like to think I'm doing the w"}
{"id": "893470986", "date": "2020-07-21", "guest": "Jim Mccloskey", "title": "An Advocate For The Wrongly Convicted Reflects On Faith, Justice And Innocence", "question_index": 17, "text": "So you're going to try to clear your mind a little bit and open your mind more towards spiritual thoughts. Is that what you're saying?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "893470986", "date": "2020-07-21", "guest": "Jim Mccloskey", "title": "An Advocate For The Wrongly Convicted Reflects On Faith, Justice And Innocence", "question_index": 18, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So what I - I am not doing what I know I should do, and that is take the time and go back and reinvigorate my prayer life, my scriptural read. I get great sustenance when I read the scriptures a"}
{"id": "893470986", "date": "2020-07-21", "guest": "Jim Mccloskey", "title": "An Advocate For The Wrongly Convicted Reflects On Faith, Justice And Innocence", "question_index": 19, "text": "Yeah, sure. So you're not going to feel very good about taking time off to pray.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We're up against the wall."}
{"id": "893470986", "date": "2020-07-21", "guest": "Jim Mccloskey", "title": "An Advocate For The Wrongly Convicted Reflects On Faith, Justice And Innocence", "question_index": 20, "text": "So that was my guest Jim McCloskey recorded in 1992. Jim, that clip always resonated with me because so many people are so busy with their work there's no time for the thing that sustains them in life, whether that's family, friends, music, art, literature, nature, prayer, you know, whatever it is. And I thought you framed that so well. You framed that conflict so well. Now, reading your book, knowing the outcome of that case and the twists and turns - because you talk about that case in your book - that clip is even more meaningful to me. And I want to talk about that aspect of it. The case you were working on where you felt so urgent about the deadline that was pretty immediate was the case of Roger Coleman, who was convicted of a gruesome rape-murder. You took on his case, but you got a little suspicious of him at some point because he refused to take a DNA test. And the reasons he gave you sounded kind of sketchy. What did he tell you about why he refused to take a DNA test?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not really. Not really."}
{"id": "893470986", "date": "2020-07-21", "guest": "Jim Mccloskey", "title": "An Advocate For The Wrongly Convicted Reflects On Faith, Justice And Innocence", "question_index": 21, "text": "Yeah, it was inconclusive. The test was inconclusive.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he told me that - well, Jim, I don't think that's a good idea because I've never told you this before, but I have had intercourse with one of the women who works here in the prison. And I'm afra"}
{"id": "893470986", "date": "2020-07-21", "guest": "Jim Mccloskey", "title": "An Advocate For The Wrongly Convicted Reflects On Faith, Justice And Innocence", "question_index": 22, "text": "So you returned to the case. So remember in that clip, you felt this urgency that you had to keep working on this case because he was about to be executed. You were running out of time, and that's why you didn't have time to pray in the way that you wanted to, to meditate in the way that you wanted to. He was executed. Did you witness his execution?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was inconclusive. It was - it didn't absolve him. It didn't exonerate him, but it was still inconclusive, yes."}
{"id": "893470986", "date": "2020-07-21", "guest": "Jim Mccloskey", "title": "An Advocate For The Wrongly Convicted Reflects On Faith, Justice And Innocence", "question_index": 23, "text": "You've had to live with so much uncertainty over the years.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did not witness the actual execution. However, Kitty, his lawyer, and I were with him, sitting on the cement floor outside his death row cell about 10 yards away from the execution chamber. He was e"}
{"id": "893470986", "date": "2020-07-21", "guest": "Jim Mccloskey", "title": "An Advocate For The Wrongly Convicted Reflects On Faith, Justice And Innocence", "question_index": 24, "text": "Yes, please.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, if you don't mind, Terry, I want to get back a little bit to my faith, if I can..."}
{"id": "893470986", "date": "2020-07-21", "guest": "Jim Mccloskey", "title": "An Advocate For The Wrongly Convicted Reflects On Faith, Justice And Innocence", "question_index": 25, "text": "Let's take a break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jim McCloskey. And he's a lay minister who founded Centurion Ministries, which is an innocence project dedicated to reopening cases and trying to exonerate people who were unjustly convicted of murder or rape and are doing time on death row or serving life sentences. His new memoir is called \"When Truth Is All You Have.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Because years later, years after Roger was executed, I had another crisis of faith working on behalf of Kerry Max Cook, a Texas death row inmate. Now, this is detailed in the book, but I was with K"}
{"id": "893470986", "date": "2020-07-21", "guest": "Jim Mccloskey", "title": "An Advocate For The Wrongly Convicted Reflects On Faith, Justice And Innocence", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jim McCloskey, a lay minister and founder of Centurion Ministries, one of the first innocence projects dedicated to exonerating men and women unjustly convicted of murder or rape who are serving life sentences or are on death row. He has a new memoir called \"When Truth Is All You Have.\" I want to talk with you a little bit more about your life. You've actually had an incredible life, and your book is just full of surprises. I mean, I first talked to you in 1992. We had lunch once together. I forget which decade it was. When my husband and I decided to get married, we actually asked you to marry us because you were a lay minister. And then you explained to us that as a lay minister, you didn't have the power", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Because years later, years after Roger was executed, I had another crisis of faith working on behalf of Kerry Max Cook, a Texas death row inmate. Now, this is detailed in the book, but I was with K"}
{"id": "893470986", "date": "2020-07-21", "guest": "Jim Mccloskey", "title": "An Advocate For The Wrongly Convicted Reflects On Faith, Justice And Innocence", "question_index": 27, "text": "You didn't have the authority to do that, so we had to turn to someone else. But - so...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "893470986", "date": "2020-07-21", "guest": "Jim Mccloskey", "title": "An Advocate For The Wrongly Convicted Reflects On Faith, Justice And Innocence", "question_index": 28, "text": "Yes - no. We were disappointed. But, you know, your book has things I never would have imagined", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sorry about that."}
{"id": "893470986", "date": "2020-07-21", "guest": "Jim Mccloskey", "title": "An Advocate For The Wrongly Convicted Reflects On Faith, Justice And Innocence", "question_index": 29, "text": "about your life. I'll mention a couple of them. So when you were working in business in Japan - this was before you were doing innocence work; it was before you went to Princeton Theological Seminary - you were in a very deep relationship with a Japanese woman. And one day, she says to you, I'm going to America. She leaves. You don't hear from her. It turns out she's been married for years to a man in America. You had no idea. This was a really horrible thing to find out. A little later, you returned to the states, and you start - and this really surprise - I was not expecting this. You always seem so straight-laced to me, so I guess I got that wrong. You had relationships with sex workers when you went back to New York. One of the relationships turned into a real relationship for a while. Why did you decide - who convinced you", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sorry about that."}
{"id": "893470986", "date": "2020-07-21", "guest": "Jim Mccloskey", "title": "An Advocate For The Wrongly Convicted Reflects On Faith, Justice And Innocence", "question_index": 30, "text": "that you should write about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sorry about that."}
{"id": "893470986", "date": "2020-07-21", "guest": "Jim Mccloskey", "title": "An Advocate For The Wrongly Convicted Reflects On Faith, Justice And Innocence", "question_index": 31, "text": "You know, I'm going to get back to that first case that you took, where you won - able to free him and have him exonerated. And when he left prison, you watched him reunite with his wife in the outside world, and it was very moving. And then you went home to the room that you rented in Princeton, turned on the TV and just felt kind of alone. And I'm wondering if you felt that way a lot during your life, that you have all these relationships with...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, you know - and that's true. Now, I haven't bared it all. I've bared enough, as you can see. But no, you know, seriously, I just thought it was important to be honest about who I was. And, you know"}
{"id": "893470986", "date": "2020-07-21", "guest": "Jim Mccloskey", "title": "An Advocate For The Wrongly Convicted Reflects On Faith, Justice And Innocence", "question_index": 32, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. No, there have been some..."}
{"id": "893470986", "date": "2020-07-21", "guest": "Jim Mccloskey", "title": "An Advocate For The Wrongly Convicted Reflects On Faith, Justice And Innocence", "question_index": 33, "text": "Jim, it's been so great to talk with you again. Congratulations on your memoir and all the work you've done in the last 40 years. It's really been a pleasure to talk with you again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, you're right. I mean, when I returned to my house to my - the room I was living in in the house that was owned and occupied by an octogenarian, a delightful woman, Mrs. Yateman (ph) in Princeton "}
{"id": "893470986", "date": "2020-07-21", "guest": "Jim Mccloskey", "title": "An Advocate For The Wrongly Convicted Reflects On Faith, Justice And Innocence", "question_index": 34, "text": "Jim McCloskey is the founder of Centurion Ministries and author of the new memoir \"When Truth Is All You Have.\" After we take a short break, rock critic Ken Tucker will review the new album by Haim, a group of three sisters. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you very much, Terry. It was - I really enjoyed, once again, talking with you. And you always ask great questions, and you get down deep, and I appreciate that very much. So thank you."}
{"id": "894847095", "date": "2020-07-24", "guest": "Unidentified Anchor", "title": "Remembering Veteran Foreign Correspondent Christopher Dickey", "question_index": 0, "text": "Christopher Dickey, before we began our interview, you told me that the reason why you went back to Paris was basically to pick up your flak jacket.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was Christopher Dickey in March of last year on MSNBC. Dickey was a frequent guest on FRESH AIR, reporting on conflicts all over the Middle East. One of those interviews was in April of 2002 duri"}
{"id": "894847095", "date": "2020-07-24", "guest": "Unidentified Anchor", "title": "Remembering Veteran Foreign Correspondent Christopher Dickey", "question_index": 1, "text": "Where do you plan on going when you return?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's right. I also wanted to see my wife and get a change of clothes, but the flak jacket is very heavy, and you have to sort of carry these things yourself. And I didn't have one would be in "}
{"id": "894847095", "date": "2020-07-24", "guest": "Unidentified Anchor", "title": "Remembering Veteran Foreign Correspondent Christopher Dickey", "question_index": 2, "text": "What advice are Newsweek correspondents being given now to go into Ramallah in spite of the Israeli prohibitions against having the press there or to stay out of Ramallah?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm going to spend some time, if I can get in, in Ramallah, Bethlehem, maybe Jenin and some of the other flashpoints, probably Gaza as well. But I also want to spend much more time in Tel Aviv, "}
{"id": "894847095", "date": "2020-07-24", "guest": "Unidentified Anchor", "title": "Remembering Veteran Foreign Correspondent Christopher Dickey", "question_index": 3, "text": "You've been covering the Middle East for Newsweek since 1993. Just on an emotional level, what's it like for you to watch the peace process fall completely apart in the way it has and, you know, to become more like war than a peace process?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we judge it on a case-by-case, moment-to-moment basis. The only way to judge that situation is to be on the ground. Nobody can give you guarantees. Nobody can tell you you're safe. No amount of "}
{"id": "894847095", "date": "2020-07-24", "guest": "Unidentified Anchor", "title": "Remembering Veteran Foreign Correspondent Christopher Dickey", "question_index": 4, "text": "You say you have friends on both sides of the conflict. Is it hard to maintain friends on both sides?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Look, I have a lot of friends on both sides of this. And it is just deeply, absolutely depressing to see what's happened, to see a process that seemed to be so close to completion two years ago just c"}
{"id": "894847095", "date": "2020-07-24", "guest": "Unidentified Anchor", "title": "Remembering Veteran Foreign Correspondent Christopher Dickey", "question_index": 5, "text": "Well, that's not hard when you're - it must be very hard when you're in the Middle East to avoid the topic of the Middle East.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you start to - well, it's hard to have the same kinds of conversations you used to have. I have friends in Israel and friends in the Arab world who - with whom I used to feel I had relatively ra"}
{"id": "894847095", "date": "2020-07-24", "guest": "Unidentified Anchor", "title": "Remembering Veteran Foreign Correspondent Christopher Dickey", "question_index": 6, "text": "That's Christopher Dickey reading from the beginning of his new memoir about his father James Dickey, and the memoir is called \"Summer Of Deliverance.\" As you point out, Chris, your father was an acclaimed poet, a great poet, and when you were young, you thought that he was seen as a god. Was that very confusing to you to feel such strong and mixed feelings about your father and know that other people saw him as a god?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) I thought that I could save my father's life. For most of 20 years, I did not see him, couldn't talk to him, could not bear to be around him. I believed I knew that he had killed my mother. "}
{"id": "894847095", "date": "2020-07-24", "guest": "Unidentified Anchor", "title": "Remembering Veteran Foreign Correspondent Christopher Dickey", "question_index": 7, "text": "Did the acclaim that's around him leave him immune to criticism from the family?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I saw him as a god. I thought he was wonderful when I was a child, and he was wonderful when I was a child in an awful lot of ways. He was tremendously attentive. He found a lot of time for me w"}
{"id": "894847095", "date": "2020-07-24", "guest": "Unidentified Anchor", "title": "Remembering Veteran Foreign Correspondent Christopher Dickey", "question_index": 8, "text": "Your father had a teacher who told him that no artist is bound by the truth. That's a nice thing to say when the artist is writing fiction", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, not in the early days, not when it was acclaim of his poetry, not when he was in the course of making his reputation. The problem with the acclaim around him, the adulation around him, really st"}
{"id": "894847095", "date": "2020-07-24", "guest": "Unidentified Anchor", "title": "Remembering Veteran Foreign Correspondent Christopher Dickey", "question_index": 9, "text": ", but some artists use that as a justification to lie in real life. Did your father do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, not in the early days, not when it was acclaim of his poetry, not when he was in the course of making his reputation. The problem with the acclaim around him, the adulation around him, really st"}
{"id": "894847095", "date": "2020-07-24", "guest": "Unidentified Anchor", "title": "Remembering Veteran Foreign Correspondent Christopher Dickey", "question_index": 10, "text": "When you were young, your mother found a letter from a woman who your father had obviously slept with, and you write that you realized that your father was living a life that wasn't about the family and that threatened the family. Tell us more about that realization.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're listening to the interview Terry recorded in 1998 with foreign correspondent and editor Christopher Dickey, who died last week. They spoke after Dickey had published his memoi"}
{"id": "894847095", "date": "2020-07-24", "guest": "Unidentified Anchor", "title": "Remembering Veteran Foreign Correspondent Christopher Dickey", "question_index": 11, "text": "By the way, what was it like to hear your father read a poem about an adulterous affair when you were at the reading?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that was in a period where he had begun touring the country, reading his poems - barnstorming for poetry, he called it. He loved that life on the road. He would always say, ah, I'm so exhausted."}
{"id": "894847095", "date": "2020-07-24", "guest": "Unidentified Anchor", "title": "Remembering Veteran Foreign Correspondent Christopher Dickey", "question_index": 12, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not real nice."}
{"id": "894847095", "date": "2020-07-24", "guest": "Unidentified Anchor", "title": "Remembering Veteran Foreign Correspondent Christopher Dickey", "question_index": 13, "text": "Do you think your father would ever come home disappointed in the family because you and your mother didn't have that adulation that strangers and readers would have for him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not real nice. It was the kind of thing - you know, I'm sitting beside my mother along with my 6-year-old brother and Michael Allen (ph), who's one of the closest friends of the family. He was in his "}
{"id": "894847095", "date": "2020-07-24", "guest": "Unidentified Anchor", "title": "Remembering Veteran Foreign Correspondent Christopher Dickey", "question_index": 14, "text": "Your father had this very manly idea of manhood, I think it's fair to say - you know, hunting, being a war pilot, playing football, writing a novel about men like \"Deliverance.\" Did he kind of want to train you to be a man's man?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Absolutely. I had idolized him when I was a little boy. But I was getting older, more skeptical of him and what he was doing. My mother - I think my mother's heart was broken a lot of the time. "}
{"id": "894847095", "date": "2020-07-24", "guest": "Unidentified Anchor", "title": "Remembering Veteran Foreign Correspondent Christopher Dickey", "question_index": 15, "text": "You said that he told you stories about being a pilot, but he wasn't really a pilot. And he wasn't really a star football player. How much of his public profile was based on lies that he had told?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think I was always a little bit of a disappointment in that regard. I was not much of a football player. I was about, oh, five or six inches shorter than my father. And I was never comfortable"}
{"id": "894847095", "date": "2020-07-24", "guest": "Unidentified Anchor", "title": "Remembering Veteran Foreign Correspondent Christopher Dickey", "question_index": 16, "text": "But were there things that you'd read about in his biographies, you know, like in writers' encyclopedias, that you thought, well, that's a lie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think he exaggerated a lot about his background partly because he saw it as good public relations when he was first acquiring a reputation as a poet. Back in the '50s and '60s, certainly, ther"}
{"id": "894847095", "date": "2020-07-24", "guest": "Unidentified Anchor", "title": "Remembering Veteran Foreign Correspondent Christopher Dickey", "question_index": 17, "text": "You write in your book that your parents, when you were, I guess, a young teenager, were afraid that you were going to be a homosexual", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. Today, we're remembering veteran foreign correspondent and editor Christopher Dickey, who died at his home in Paris last week at the age of 68. "}
{"id": "894847095", "date": "2020-07-24", "guest": "Unidentified Anchor", "title": "Remembering Veteran Foreign Correspondent Christopher Dickey", "question_index": 18, "text": ". So they used to give you Playboy magazines and Henry Miller novels to read to help arouse those hetero instincts. What did you think of that? Did you realize what was going on there?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. Today, we're remembering veteran foreign correspondent and editor Christopher Dickey, who died at his home in Paris last week at the age of 68. "}
{"id": "894847095", "date": "2020-07-24", "guest": "Unidentified Anchor", "title": "Remembering Veteran Foreign Correspondent Christopher Dickey", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let me just say, it worked remarkably well."}
{"id": "894847095", "date": "2020-07-24", "guest": "Unidentified Anchor", "title": "Remembering Veteran Foreign Correspondent Christopher Dickey", "question_index": 20, "text": "You write that, at the age of 15, you made a pact with yourself; you'd spent so much of your life being scared that you couldn't be scared anymore. What was the pact that you made?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But it was - no, I think that my father's idea of my sexuality was - how can I say - it was confused. And, certainly, he was projecting some of his own misgivings about his own sexuality onto me. Th"}
{"id": "894847095", "date": "2020-07-24", "guest": "Unidentified Anchor", "title": "Remembering Veteran Foreign Correspondent Christopher Dickey", "question_index": 21, "text": "You were married for the first time in 1970 at the age of 18. You short - you had a child shortly after that. When you were married, your father said to you, you've thrown away your youth. How did you interpret it at the time, and does what your father say mean something different to you now that you're older?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But it was just sort of a conceit that I had followed through on."}
{"id": "894847095", "date": "2020-07-24", "guest": "Unidentified Anchor", "title": "Remembering Veteran Foreign Correspondent Christopher Dickey", "question_index": 22, "text": "An object for him to meditate about himself", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it sounds like it could be a conventional remark. I mean, you say you've thrown away your youth to an 18-year-old boy who's getting married, that may seem fairly obvious. But I didn't feel that "}
{"id": "894847095", "date": "2020-07-24", "guest": "Unidentified Anchor", "title": "Remembering Veteran Foreign Correspondent Christopher Dickey", "question_index": 23, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it sounds like it could be a conventional remark. I mean, you say you've thrown away your youth to an 18-year-old boy who's getting married, that may seem fairly obvious. But I didn't feel that "}
{"id": "894847095", "date": "2020-07-24", "guest": "Unidentified Anchor", "title": "Remembering Veteran Foreign Correspondent Christopher Dickey", "question_index": 24, "text": "You read \"Deliverance\" right after you were married. That's when \"Deliverance\" was completed. What did you think of it as a book?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're listening to the interview Terry recorded in 1998 with foreign correspondent and editor Christopher Dickey, who died last week. They spoke after Dickey had published his memoi"}
{"id": "894847095", "date": "2020-07-24", "guest": "Unidentified Anchor", "title": "Remembering Veteran Foreign Correspondent Christopher Dickey", "question_index": 25, "text": "You worked as an extra on the movie adaptation of \"Deliverance,\" and one of the things you did is that you were the stand-in for Ned Beatty in the rape scene when he's told to squeal like a pig. And you write about how much that experience troubled you. What was so troublesome about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I couldn't put it down. I thought it was a great novel. I was amazed. I didn't know that my father would be able to tell the story quite so effectively and beautifully and keep you into it the way - k"}
{"id": "894847095", "date": "2020-07-24", "guest": "Unidentified Anchor", "title": "Remembering Veteran Foreign Correspondent Christopher Dickey", "question_index": 26, "text": "We should, just for people who haven't read the book or seen the movie, just say that it's about three middle-aged suburban guys who go on this little weekend adventure together canoeing down a river. And they run into some kind of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was hard for me to address what was troublesome at the time. I mean, I wondered why the scene even existed in the movie."}
{"id": "894847095", "date": "2020-07-24", "guest": "Unidentified Anchor", "title": "Remembering Veteran Foreign Correspondent Christopher Dickey", "question_index": 27, "text": "There you go", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they go straight to redneck hell is what happens. They..."}
{"id": "894847095", "date": "2020-07-24", "guest": "Unidentified Anchor", "title": "Remembering Veteran Foreign Correspondent Christopher Dickey", "question_index": 28, "text": "- trying to find a nice way of saying this", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they go straight to redneck hell is what happens. They..."}
{"id": "894847095", "date": "2020-07-24", "guest": "Unidentified Anchor", "title": "Remembering Veteran Foreign Correspondent Christopher Dickey", "question_index": 29, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they go straight to redneck hell is what happens. They..."}
{"id": "894847095", "date": "2020-07-24", "guest": "Unidentified Anchor", "title": "Remembering Veteran Foreign Correspondent Christopher Dickey", "question_index": 30, "text": "So getting back to being a stand-in for Ned Beatty - what was that like for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Now, it's - what happens, of course, is that they - it's actually four guys - only three survive - who start down this river in North Georgia thinking that they're going to just have a kind of a guys "}
{"id": "894847095", "date": "2020-07-24", "guest": "Unidentified Anchor", "title": "Remembering Veteran Foreign Correspondent Christopher Dickey", "question_index": 31, "text": "Who asked?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was humiliating. I didn't have to do what he had to do, God knows. I didn't have to take off my clothes. I did - nobody rode me like a sow and made me squeal like a pig. But I did have to pose in t"}
{"id": "894847095", "date": "2020-07-24", "guest": "Unidentified Anchor", "title": "Remembering Veteran Foreign Correspondent Christopher Dickey", "question_index": 32, "text": "You were afraid that the rape scene was going to take on too much significance in the movie, that it would be all that people really remembered.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Boorman, the director. There were four or five stand-ins. It could have been any one of them, but I was the one who wound up doing that. And I guess that once he asked me, I couldn't back off very wel"}
{"id": "894847095", "date": "2020-07-24", "guest": "Unidentified Anchor", "title": "Remembering Veteran Foreign Correspondent Christopher Dickey", "question_index": 33, "text": "Now, you thought that your father, the great artist, had allowed himself to make compromises in the film adaptation of \"Deliverance.\" Like what?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it is the main thing that people remember. It's the thing that people talk about. I mean, there's a whole kind of series of redneck jokes around squeal like a pig, and that's the sort of"}
{"id": "894847095", "date": "2020-07-24", "guest": "Unidentified Anchor", "title": "Remembering Veteran Foreign Correspondent Christopher Dickey", "question_index": 34, "text": "You write that you clung to the idea that you and your father were very different but that you were somehow living a pale imitation of his life. In what way did your life strike you as that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the film was not his film. He had written the original script, and he got full credit for the script. But in fact, a lot of the dialogue was rewritten. A lot of very bad dialogue was put in it -"}
{"id": "894847095", "date": "2020-07-24", "guest": "Unidentified Anchor", "title": "Remembering Veteran Foreign Correspondent Christopher Dickey", "question_index": 35, "text": "You write this about your early writing. You say that your father created myths but you weren't a genius, and demythologizing was becoming your obsession.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, at the time that I felt that, I was trying to write movies. I was trying to - I was going to film school. I was doing a lot of things that I thought were interesting but that also fit into a pat"}
{"id": "894847095", "date": "2020-07-24", "guest": "Unidentified Anchor", "title": "Remembering Veteran Foreign Correspondent Christopher Dickey", "question_index": 36, "text": "What did it mean to you to not be a genius?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. Maybe that's why I became a journalist. I felt that I needed to get to the truth of things. The myth didn't interest me. The facts did interest me. And there was a time when I think - in"}
{"id": "894847095", "date": "2020-07-24", "guest": "Unidentified Anchor", "title": "Remembering Veteran Foreign Correspondent Christopher Dickey", "question_index": 37, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. Maybe that's why I became a journalist. I felt that I needed to get to the truth of things. The myth didn't interest me. The facts did interest me. And there was a time when I think - in"}
{"id": "894847095", "date": "2020-07-24", "guest": "Unidentified Anchor", "title": "Remembering Veteran Foreign Correspondent Christopher Dickey", "question_index": 38, "text": "You know, you say in your book that you think a good reason - one of the reasons why you became a foreign correspondent was you wanted to get away from your father. You wanted to get away from his life. But in some ways, I'm sure a lot of people saw you as kind of living out an extension of his life in the sense of you were doing something, you know really, virile, you know, writing - a war correspondent in El Salvador, which is what you did early in your career, taking a lot of great risks. Even if you were minimizing your risks, you were still taking big risks. So was that kind of paradoxical for you to be perceived as being an extension of what he was doing, when, in so many ways, you were trying to get away from it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, genius - genius is almost a spiritual experience for the person who has it and also to be around. You're in touch with somebody - if you're around a genius - I can't tell you what it's like to b"}
{"id": "894847095", "date": "2020-07-24", "guest": "Unidentified Anchor", "title": "Remembering Veteran Foreign Correspondent Christopher Dickey", "question_index": 39, "text": "Did your father have any objections to you writing a book about him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a little bit paradoxical. But the best thing that happened was especially once I began to cover Central America and the Middle East, people just didn't associate me with him. Most people, even "}
{"id": "894847095", "date": "2020-07-24", "guest": "Unidentified Anchor", "title": "Remembering Veteran Foreign Correspondent Christopher Dickey", "question_index": 40, "text": "Well, Christopher Dickey, I want to thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I sort of broke it to him gradually. He knew that - he knew from the start that I was going to make a - write a book about the making of \"Deliverance,\" and that we - and we would talk about that"}
{"id": "897192992", "date": "2020-07-31", "guest": "Hendricks And Ross", "title": "Remembering Jazz Singer Annie Ross", "question_index": 0, "text": "Annie Ross, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) My analyst told me - what? - that I was right out of my hand. The way he described it - how? - he said I'd be better dead than live. I didn't listen to his jive. I knew all along he was all "}
{"id": "897192992", "date": "2020-07-31", "guest": "Hendricks And Ross", "title": "Remembering Jazz Singer Annie Ross", "question_index": 1, "text": "We just heard \"Twisted.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "897192992", "date": "2020-07-31", "guest": "Hendricks And Ross", "title": "Remembering Jazz Singer Annie Ross", "question_index": 2, "text": "I just need to ask you if you were in analysis when you wrote that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "897192992", "date": "2020-07-31", "guest": "Hendricks And Ross", "title": "Remembering Jazz Singer Annie Ross", "question_index": 3, "text": "So how did you team up with John Hendricks and Dave Lambert?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I was not and have never been. The title \"Twisted\" suggested to me the whole story of a woman going to an analyst, but, no, I wasn't in analysis."}
{"id": "897192992", "date": "2020-07-31", "guest": "Hendricks And Ross", "title": "Remembering Jazz Singer Annie Ross", "question_index": 4, "text": "So the group stuck together, but most of your stuff was not over track like that. It was mostly just straightforward trio. How would you come up with the arrangements? How were those done?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You're singing the blues each time I see you, every day. You're singing the blues. Those blues won't free you, every day. I sort of expected once you'd shake them, everyday, but now I can di"}
{"id": "897192992", "date": "2020-07-31", "guest": "Hendricks And Ross", "title": "Remembering Jazz Singer Annie Ross", "question_index": 5, "text": "Let me play a song that you recorded before you teamed up with Lambert and Hendricks. This is from a 1957 session that you made with baritone saxophonist Gerry Mulligan. The title is \"Annie Ross Sings A Song With Mulligan!\" And I'm going to play the Dietz and Schwartz song, \"I Guess I'll Have To Change My Plan.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they were actual arrangements from the bands of that era. We would take, like, Horace Silver, maybe a quintet, a somewhat scaled down version. We just didn't do the big-band things that much. Ex"}
{"id": "897192992", "date": "2020-07-31", "guest": "Hendricks And Ross", "title": "Remembering Jazz Singer Annie Ross", "question_index": 6, "text": "My guest Annie Ross recorded with Gerry Mulligan. You came to America from England when you were, I think, 6 years old.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Well, I guess I have to change my plan. I should have realized I'd lose my favorite man. I overlooked that point completely until the big affair began. Before I knew where I was at, I found "}
{"id": "897192992", "date": "2020-07-31", "guest": "Hendricks And Ross", "title": "Remembering Jazz Singer Annie Ross", "question_index": 7, "text": "Scotland - from Scotland.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Scotland."}
{"id": "897192992", "date": "2020-07-31", "guest": "Hendricks And Ross", "title": "Remembering Jazz Singer Annie Ross", "question_index": 8, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Five and a half."}
{"id": "897192992", "date": "2020-07-31", "guest": "Hendricks And Ross", "title": "Remembering Jazz Singer Annie Ross", "question_index": 9, "text": "Now, once you got to America, didn't you stay there with your aunt, the singer Ella Logan?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, 4 1/2. I was 4 1/2 when I arrived."}
{"id": "897192992", "date": "2020-07-31", "guest": "Hendricks And Ross", "title": "Remembering Jazz Singer Annie Ross", "question_index": 10, "text": "How did you feel about being raised by your aunt and kind of leaving your parents behind?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I did. I came to New York with my mother and father and my elder brother. And I won a contest, a radio contest. The prize was a six-month - really a token contract with MGM. And I went out to LA "}
{"id": "897192992", "date": "2020-07-31", "guest": "Hendricks And Ross", "title": "Remembering Jazz Singer Annie Ross", "question_index": 11, "text": "Did your parents have any reservations about leaving you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when I say aunt, she was really my guardian. My aunt was really in New York doing shows, and I was raised by a nanny. And it wasn't great."}
{"id": "897192992", "date": "2020-07-31", "guest": "Hendricks And Ross", "title": "Remembering Jazz Singer Annie Ross", "question_index": 12, "text": "Did they want it that way, or was it you who...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm sure they did. Sure."}
{"id": "897192992", "date": "2020-07-31", "guest": "Hendricks And Ross", "title": "Remembering Jazz Singer Annie Ross", "question_index": 13, "text": "You mean California already had stars?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think they probably felt that it was best for me to do that, that maybe through doing that I could become a star. But they already had stars."}
{"id": "897192992", "date": "2020-07-31", "guest": "Hendricks And Ross", "title": "Remembering Jazz Singer Annie Ross", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, how were you groomed? What kind of image were you given?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. They had Shirley Temple and Jane Withers and, you know, many, many young kids."}
{"id": "897192992", "date": "2020-07-31", "guest": "Hendricks And Ross", "title": "Remembering Jazz Singer Annie Ross", "question_index": 15, "text": "Oh, because you were Scottish.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Shirley Temple image, but with a kilt."}
{"id": "897192992", "date": "2020-07-31", "guest": "Hendricks And Ross", "title": "Remembering Jazz Singer Annie Ross", "question_index": 16, "text": "Oh, boy", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "897192992", "date": "2020-07-31", "guest": "Hendricks And Ross", "title": "Remembering Jazz Singer Annie Ross", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "897192992", "date": "2020-07-31", "guest": "Hendricks And Ross", "title": "Remembering Jazz Singer Annie Ross", "question_index": 18, "text": "Did you have those little curls?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had a thick Scottish accent, too."}
{"id": "897192992", "date": "2020-07-31", "guest": "Hendricks And Ross", "title": "Remembering Jazz Singer Annie Ross", "question_index": 19, "text": "And did you have to be cute as a button?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure. Absolutely."}
{"id": "897192992", "date": "2020-07-31", "guest": "Hendricks And Ross", "title": "Remembering Jazz Singer Annie Ross", "question_index": 20, "text": "Now you also did some \"Our Gang\" comedies.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, I had no thought of not performing. I mean, I would perform at the drop of a hat. You know, I could swing, and I could sing well, and I could move. And I loved all the attention. I mean,"}
{"id": "897192992", "date": "2020-07-31", "guest": "Hendricks And Ross", "title": "Remembering Jazz Singer Annie Ross", "question_index": 21, "text": "Oh, OK. And what kind of part did you have in there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I only did one. Yeah."}
{"id": "897192992", "date": "2020-07-31", "guest": "Hendricks And Ross", "title": "Remembering Jazz Singer Annie Ross", "question_index": 22, "text": "I should have guessed that, shouldn't I? So how did you start listening to and then performing jazz?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's a little girl with a kilt who comes out, and they're producing a show, and she sings a swing version of \"Loch Lomond.\""}
{"id": "897192992", "date": "2020-07-31", "guest": "Hendricks And Ross", "title": "Remembering Jazz Singer Annie Ross", "question_index": 23, "text": "Well, I wish you the best, and I thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my aunt gave me a record of Ella Fitzgerald singing \"A-Tisket, A-Tasket\" when I was 4. And I learned it, and I could do it. And a wonderful thing about my aunt was that in our house in LA, there"}
{"id": "899748740", "date": "2020-08-06", "guest": "Pete Hamill", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Veteran Journalist Pete Hamill", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today, we're going into our archive to remember journalist Pete Hamill. He died yesterday at age 85 from complications following emergency surgery after falling and breaking a hip. Hamill was described in The New York Times as the quintessential New York journalist. Times columnist Dan Barry once wrote, if the pavement of New York City could talk, it would sound like Pete Hamill. Hamill traveled the world and covered wars, including Vietnam. He was a columnist for the New York Post and the New York Daily News and served as the top editor at both papers. He was a friend of Robert Kennedy and helped convince him to run for president. On the night Kennedy was shot, Hamill was one of the people who tackled the assassin. His many awards included a Grammy in 1976 for his liner notes for the Dylan album \"Blood On The Tracks\" and a George Polk Career Award in 2014 for his lifetime contributions to journalism. In Hamill's New York Times obituary, Robert McFadden wrote, quote, \"Along with Jimmy Breslin, Hamill popularized a spare, blunt style in columns of on-the-scene reporting in the authentic voice of the working classes. He pounded out stories about murders, strikes, the World Series, championship fights, jazz or politics, and then got drunk after work with buddies in Greenwich Village,\" unquote. The first of the three interviews we'll hear with him was recorded in 1994 after the publication of his memoir \"A Drinking Life,\" in which he wrote about the culture of drink he was once part of and why he gave it up. When we spoke, he hadn't had a drink in 20 years. I asked him if he thought he helped create the myth of the hard-drinking journalist.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "899748740", "date": "2020-08-06", "guest": "Pete Hamill", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Veteran Journalist Pete Hamill", "question_index": 1, "text": "What kind of bars were good to hang out at when you were writing a story, and what could you get from being in a bar when you were looking for leads?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "in my own way."}
{"id": "899748740", "date": "2020-08-06", "guest": "Pete Hamill", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Veteran Journalist Pete Hamill", "question_index": 2, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I was not alone in having written stories actually in the basement of The Lion's Head. I think the best newspapermen bars were not inhabited only by newspapermen but attracted politicians, hustler"}
{"id": "899748740", "date": "2020-08-06", "guest": "Pete Hamill", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Veteran Journalist Pete Hamill", "question_index": 3, "text": "Let's say you were investigating a murder in a Brooklyn neighborhood. Would you try to go to a bar in that neighborhood and hang out for a while, see what you could find out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Trying to promote themselves into eternity."}
{"id": "899748740", "date": "2020-08-06", "guest": "Pete Hamill", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Veteran Journalist Pete Hamill", "question_index": 4, "text": "How well did you write when you had been drinking?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, almost always. That was the way we operated in those days because New York at that time, and I'm talking the late '50s, early '60s through the end of the '60s, really, when things began to chang"}
{"id": "899748740", "date": "2020-08-06", "guest": "Pete Hamill", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Veteran Journalist Pete Hamill", "question_index": 5, "text": "So you were the kind of drinker who could say, well, I drink, but I never miss a deadline.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I never wrote while I was drinking. I had a couple of adventures with it early in my career where I tried to drink and then go into the office and do it, and I could not do it. I could - my fing"}
{"id": "899748740", "date": "2020-08-06", "guest": "Pete Hamill", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Veteran Journalist Pete Hamill", "question_index": 6, "text": "So you never bottomed out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, exactly. I think the most dangerous people - most dangerous myth about all of this is that you have to hit bottom in order to start on your way up. And the people I knew who hit bottom never rec"}
{"id": "899748740", "date": "2020-08-06", "guest": "Pete Hamill", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Veteran Journalist Pete Hamill", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, well, I never bottomed out in the sense that - in the classical sense. I mean, in this book, I wanted to make clear that I was not going to make this worse than it was. It was not about another \"L"}
{"id": "899748740", "date": "2020-08-06", "guest": "Pete Hamill", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Veteran Journalist Pete Hamill", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...In which you got the DTs and you're seeing Richard Nixon in the corner covered with ants."}
{"id": "899748740", "date": "2020-08-06", "guest": "Pete Hamill", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Veteran Journalist Pete Hamill", "question_index": 9, "text": "You're Irish. You grew up in an Irish neighborhood in Brooklyn. Do you think there's any truth in the stereotype of Irish culture as being a drinking culture?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I never got to that point. It's a book about getting to a certain point, realizing you're doing a lot of damage, even though you're having a lot of fun along the way, and pulling back and saying, "}
{"id": "899748740", "date": "2020-08-06", "guest": "Pete Hamill", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Veteran Journalist Pete Hamill", "question_index": 10, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I think there's no doubt that it's - that Irish culture has been bound together for many centuries by drink, but it's not unique to Ireland. I think if you look at defeated nations, if you look at"}
{"id": "899748740", "date": "2020-08-06", "guest": "Pete Hamill", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Veteran Journalist Pete Hamill", "question_index": 11, "text": "Your father was a drinker. Your father was from Ireland, moved to Brooklyn, where you were born. But he drank a lot when you were growing up. Did he ever give it up himself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm going to live my life, not perform it - not according to their script, at least."}
{"id": "899748740", "date": "2020-08-06", "guest": "Pete Hamill", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Veteran Journalist Pete Hamill", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, he never did. Near the end of his life, in the last five years of his life - he lived to be 80. In the last years of his life - particularly after his hair started getting gray, which was at the a"}
{"id": "899748740", "date": "2020-08-06", "guest": "Pete Hamill", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Veteran Journalist Pete Hamill", "question_index": 13, "text": "When you started at the Post in 1960, New York had seven papers, which is just impossible to imagine now. Cities that have two papers are in really good shape nowadays. Was it like to have seven papers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And lived fairly happily until the day he left us. So no, he did not stop it. He kept drinking, but not - at his age - and he had done, probably, a lot of physical damage. It didn't take much for h"}
{"id": "899748740", "date": "2020-08-06", "guest": "Pete Hamill", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Veteran Journalist Pete Hamill", "question_index": 14, "text": "When you started working at the Post, do you think that the newspaper had a different place in its readers' lives than newspapers have in the lives of readers today?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was an absolute feast. And even having the seven papers, we were mourning the fact that we had already lost two or three. We had lost the Brooklyn Eagle - which I used to deliver as a kid, which ha"}
{"id": "899748740", "date": "2020-08-06", "guest": "Pete Hamill", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Veteran Journalist Pete Hamill", "question_index": 15, "text": "Pete Hamill, recorded in 1994, after the publication of his memoir \"A Drinking Life.\" He died yesterday at age 85. After we take a short break, we'll hear the interview I recorded with him in 2008 about his friendship with Robert Kennedy and his memories of the night Kennedy was assassinated. Hamill helped tackle the assassin. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I think that's - I think, lamentably, that's true because television, although it was strong in 1960 and had been strong for most of a decade - television had not become the all-ruling version of "}
{"id": "899748740", "date": "2020-08-06", "guest": "Pete Hamill", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Veteran Journalist Pete Hamill", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're remembering journalist Pete Hamill, who died yesterday. The second of the three interviews we'll hear with him today was recorded in 2008, on the 40th anniversary of Robert Kennedy's assassination. Hamill was friends with Kennedy, helped convince him to run for president, worked briefly on his campaign and then wrote about the campaign. Earlier on the night Kennedy was assassinated, he'd won the Democratic primary in California, keeping him in the race. He made his victory speech late that night. Hamill was there. And when the speech was over, Kennedy was shot three times. He died the following day. When we spoke, Hamill had written the introduction to a book of photos of Kennedy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I think that's - I think, lamentably, that's true because television, although it was strong in 1960 and had been strong for most of a decade - television had not become the all-ruling version of "}
{"id": "899748740", "date": "2020-08-06", "guest": "Pete Hamill", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Veteran Journalist Pete Hamill", "question_index": 17, "text": "How did you first get to know Bobby Kennedy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I think that's - I think, lamentably, that's true because television, although it was strong in 1960 and had been strong for most of a decade - television had not become the all-ruling version of "}
{"id": "899748740", "date": "2020-08-06", "guest": "Pete Hamill", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Veteran Journalist Pete Hamill", "question_index": 18, "text": "Since it was the war in Vietnam that brought you both together, what views did you or didn't you share about the war?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had gone to cover the war - an early part of the war in Vietnam at the very end of '65. So I was there for Christmas and New Year's and a couple of weeks after that. And this was for the New Y"}
{"id": "899748740", "date": "2020-08-06", "guest": "Pete Hamill", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Veteran Journalist Pete Hamill", "question_index": 19, "text": "You wrote Bobby Kennedy a letter...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We both agreed with the way that the country had to go ahead because the war was tearing us apart. Before he ran for president, he knew that, somehow, they had to go to a negotiating table somewhere a"}
{"id": "899748740", "date": "2020-08-06", "guest": "Pete Hamill", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Veteran Journalist Pete Hamill", "question_index": 20, "text": "...Urging him to run for president. So what was the response to the letter?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did."}
{"id": "899748740", "date": "2020-08-06", "guest": "Pete Hamill", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Veteran Journalist Pete Hamill", "question_index": 21, "text": "When you wrote the letter to Bobby Kennedy urging him to run for the presidency, assassination was very much on your mind.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, apparently, it had some effect. When Lyndon Johnson finally decided not to run again, Kennedy was then free. And he announced almost immediately after that. And I got a telegram in Ireland sayin"}
{"id": "899748740", "date": "2020-08-06", "guest": "Pete Hamill", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Veteran Journalist Pete Hamill", "question_index": 22, "text": "You certainly knew about his brother's assassination. You were in Ireland at the time you wrote the letter finishing up a thriller you were writing about...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "899748740", "date": "2020-08-06", "guest": "Pete Hamill", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Veteran Journalist Pete Hamill", "question_index": 23, "text": "...The assassination of the pope.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "899748740", "date": "2020-08-06", "guest": "Pete Hamill", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Veteran Journalist Pete Hamill", "question_index": 24, "text": "So when you urged Bobby Kennedy to run for president, did you think at all, well, maybe - maybe - this would leave him vulnerable to assassination himself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "899748740", "date": "2020-08-06", "guest": "Pete Hamill", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Veteran Journalist Pete Hamill", "question_index": 25, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded with journalist Pete Hamill in 2008 on the anniversary of Robert Kennedy's assassination. Hamill died yesterday. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. And we'll hear an interview recorded with him in 2011 after the publication of his novel \"Tabloid City.\" I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I did because there had been a couple of other assassinations - Malcolm X, Medgar Evers. There were then, as now, millions of guns in the country and not more than a few nuts. So it was a po"}
{"id": "899748740", "date": "2020-08-06", "guest": "Pete Hamill", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Veteran Journalist Pete Hamill", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today, we're remembering journalist Pete Hamill and listening back to interviews with him. Hamill died yesterday. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with him in 2008, on the 40th anniversary of Robert Kennedy's assassination. Hamill and Kennedy were friends. Hamill helped convince Kennedy to run for president. On the night Kennedy was shot, Hamill helped tackle and disarm the assassin.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I did because there had been a couple of other assassinations - Malcolm X, Medgar Evers. There were then, as now, millions of guns in the country and not more than a few nuts. So it was a po"}
{"id": "899748740", "date": "2020-08-06", "guest": "Pete Hamill", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Veteran Journalist Pete Hamill", "question_index": 27, "text": "Let's talk about your memories of the night Bobby Kennedy was killed. It was a big night for his presidential campaign, the night of the California primary. Why was that so important?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I did because there had been a couple of other assassinations - Malcolm X, Medgar Evers. There were then, as now, millions of guns in the country and not more than a few nuts. So it was a po"}
{"id": "899748740", "date": "2020-08-06", "guest": "Pete Hamill", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Veteran Journalist Pete Hamill", "question_index": 28, "text": "You went down to the ballroom.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I think their sense that what will be will be was present, and they saw it in Kennedy, and it made him even more attractive than the simple political allegiances that he was calling forth. So it loo"}
{"id": "899748740", "date": "2020-08-06", "guest": "Pete Hamill", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Veteran Journalist Pete Hamill", "question_index": 29, "text": "Did you know right away what was happening?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. I went down in the freight elevator with Kennedy and Bill Barry, who was the head of security, and four or five other people jammed into this freight elevator, down to the back of the ballroom,"}
{"id": "899748740", "date": "2020-08-06", "guest": "Pete Hamill", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Veteran Journalist Pete Hamill", "question_index": 30, "text": "Don't kill the evidence.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, because I turned and I saw a fellow, this guy who turned out to be Sirhan Sirhan - his right leg plant forward and the gun straight out. It was about - I don't know - three feet from Kennedy's he"}
{"id": "899748740", "date": "2020-08-06", "guest": "Pete Hamill", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Veteran Journalist Pete Hamill", "question_index": 31, "text": "Pete Hamill, recorded in 2008, on the 40th anniversary of Robert Kennedy's assassination. Hamill died yesterday. After we take a short break, we'll hear an interview with him from 2011, recorded after the publication of his novel \"Tabloid City.\" Hamill had worked at the New York tabloids the Post and the Daily News. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, don't kill the killer; try to find out what he's made of, who he is, what's this about, etc. They kept him alive."}
{"id": "899748740", "date": "2020-08-06", "guest": "Pete Hamill", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Veteran Journalist Pete Hamill", "question_index": 32, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Today we're remembering journalist Pete Hamill, who died yesterday at the age of 85. Hamill wrote for several magazines and New York newspapers, but he was most associated with two New York tabloids, the Post and The Daily News. He was a columnist and went on to become the top editor at both publications. In 2011, Hamill published a novel called \"Tabloid City.\" He talked about it with FRESH AIR's Dave Davies.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, don't kill the killer; try to find out what he's made of, who he is, what's this about, etc. They kept him alive."}
{"id": "899748740", "date": "2020-08-06", "guest": "Pete Hamill", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Veteran Journalist Pete Hamill", "question_index": 33, "text": "We're listening to the interview FRESH AIR's Dave Davies recorded with journalist Pete Hamill in 2011 after the publication of Hamill's novel \"Tabloid City.\" After a break, we'll hear more of the interview as we conclude our remembrance of Hamill. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. It's really more of a composite of a few people, not that I knew particularly but who some of the younger reporters remember. A guy gets canned for - because there's no money left to pay him to wr"}
{"id": "899748740", "date": "2020-08-06", "guest": "Pete Hamill", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Veteran Journalist Pete Hamill", "question_index": 34, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're remembering journalist Pete Hamill, who died yesterday. Let's get back to the interview FRESH AIR's Dave Davies recorded with Hamill in 2011 after the publication of Hamill's novel \"Tabloid City.\" Hamill wrote for The New York tabloids The Post and The Daily News and became the top editor of each of those publications.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. It's really more of a composite of a few people, not that I knew particularly but who some of the younger reporters remember. A guy gets canned for - because there's no money left to pay him to wr"}
{"id": "899748740", "date": "2020-08-06", "guest": "Pete Hamill", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Veteran Journalist Pete Hamill", "question_index": 35, "text": "Pete Hamill, recorded in 2011. He spoke with FRESH AIR's Dave Davies. Hamill died yesterday at age 85. If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed - like our interview with Jeffrey Toobin about his new book on the Mueller investigation and Trump's impeachment and how Trump managed to survive both - check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "899748740", "date": "2020-08-06", "guest": "Pete Hamill", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Veteran Journalist Pete Hamill", "question_index": 36, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Thea Chaloner and Joel Wolfram. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Seth Kelley directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "902146762", "date": "2020-08-13", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The TV series nominated for the most Emmys this year - 26 of them - is HBO's \"Watchmen.\" My guest, Cord Jefferson, is one of the series writers and is nominated for an Emmy for writing Episode 6. \"Watchmen\" is based on the graphic novel of the same name and combines elements of superhero comics, sci-fi and time travel and the all-too-true trauma of racism in the U.S. In the series, in 2016, a white supremacist group attacked the homes of 40 police officers working for the Tulsa Police Department. Of those who survived, only two stayed with the force - a black cop, Detective Angela Abar, played by Regina King; and a white cop, Police Chief Judd Crawford, played by Don Johnson. To protect themselves, the police decide to conceal their identities by wearing masks. In the episode that Jefferson is nominated for writing, Angela discovers a 100-year-old man who turns out to be her grandfather and appears to have lynched Don Johnson's character. As the FBI investigates the murder, Angela wants to know more about her grandfather, so she swallows his bottle of a drug called Nostalgia. The drug contains the person's harvested memories so he or she can relive them. By taking her grandfather's Nostalgia, Angela experiences what he lived through. She's thrown back in time to Tulsa, when he was a child and survived the Tulsa massacre of 1921, when mobs of white residents were given weapons by city officials and attacked Black people and businesses, destroying a prosperous Black community that was known as Black Wall Street. Angela also experiences how her grandfather went on to become a police officer in the 1930s who faced brutality from white supremacists, some of whom were his fellow cops. To fight back against white supremacists, he wears a black hood to hide his identity and becomes known as Hooded Justice. Cord Jefferson has also written for \"Succession,\" \"The Good Place,\" \"Master Of None\" and Larry Wilmore's late-night series of political satire and conversation \"The Nightly Show.\" Jefferson also wrote for the now defunct website Gawker, where he was the site's West Coast editor. Cord Jefferson, welcome to FRESH AIR. And congratulations on your Emmy nomination and all the others that \"Watchmen\" has received.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "902146762", "date": "2020-08-13", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 1, "text": "So I want to start with the Tulsa massacre, which is kind of central to the whole story in this. How did it become a central part of the series? I don't think it's in the graphic novel that it's based on.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "902146762", "date": "2020-08-13", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 2, "text": "You could say it's hard to be shocked by anything in terms of the racist aspect of America's history. On the other hand, was there something about the Tulsa massacre that you found particularly shocking?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is not anywhere in the graphic novel. That idea came to us via Damon Lindelof, the creator of the show. He came into the room on Day 1 and said that he wanted the Tulsa massacre to be part of the s"}
{"id": "902146762", "date": "2020-08-13", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 3, "text": "I wonder if writing the series made you think a lot about generational trauma, how trauma is kind of passed on to succeeding generations.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So a friend said to me that the thing that really made them think that it was all made up when they watched the first episode was the planes firebombing the buildings. They said that that seemed ridic"}
{"id": "902146762", "date": "2020-08-13", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 4, "text": "Is it something you thought about a lot before?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. I think it was one of the most important themes to me in the series, and it was incredibly important to me personally, too. I was, you know, thrilled that we were putting it in there."}
{"id": "902146762", "date": "2020-08-13", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 5, "text": "So the character who is the superhero in this, who is also the character who is the cop in the 1930s and who survived the Tulsa massacre, he becomes known as Hooded Justice. He takes the hood that was used when he was being lynched and - this is going to be complicated. But fellow cops who are white supremacists lynched him with a black hood over him and then cut him down and basically said, next time we're not going to cut you down. He takes that hood and uses it to disguise himself to fight white supremacists. So it's an interesting twist on the superhero origin story. Do you want to talk about the process of coming up with that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah. My father is a Vietnam veteran, and he is a - I think that he would tell you himself that he did not and was not given the resources necessary to deal with the sort of emotional and mental"}
{"id": "902146762", "date": "2020-08-13", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 6, "text": "And maybe you'd want to explain it a little better than I did.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "902146762", "date": "2020-08-13", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 7, "text": "Were there any personal experiences you drew on in writing the series?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, I'll try. I'll try. It is complicated. But so Hooded Justice is a character in the original text of \"Watchmen.\" He's not a big character by any means, but he is the original superhero. He "}
{"id": "902146762", "date": "2020-08-13", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here. And then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Cord Jefferson. He was a writer on the HBO series \"Watchmen,\" which is nominated for 26 Emmys, more than any other show. He's one of the nominees for writing Episode 6. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think that this is - that sort of anger that Angela feels and that sort of just barely-beneath-the-surface rage that she feels, due in no small part to the traumas that were enacted on her anc"}
{"id": "902146762", "date": "2020-08-13", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Cord Jefferson. He was a writer for the HBO series \"Watchmen\" and is nominated for an Emmy for writing Episode 6, the episode where Angela takes her grandfather's Nostalgia pills and experiences his life, including surviving the Tulsa massacre of 1921. So the writers' room for \"Watchmen\" was a diverse writers' room. Did you have a lot of conversations about race in the writers' room?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think that this is - that sort of anger that Angela feels and that sort of just barely-beneath-the-surface rage that she feels, due in no small part to the traumas that were enacted on her anc"}
{"id": "902146762", "date": "2020-08-13", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 10, "text": "You've talked a little bit about your feelings about, like, diverse writers' rooms and diverse newsrooms. And you said that you think people should be open and direct about wanting to hire a diverse writers' room or a diverse newsroom. But you've also said in The Washington Post that something that happens a lot when it comes to diversity in Hollywood and everywhere else is that people will just populate the room with people of color or queer people or women, but not really respect those people's voices or pay attention to what they're saying. So can you talk a little bit about what you think is, like, the best approach to creating diversity when none already exists?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, a great many. You know, something that I always tell people is - and one of the problems and difficulties that people have had, you know, in Hollywood but in every industry, really, is tha"}
{"id": "902146762", "date": "2020-08-13", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 11, "text": "You've talked about how you feel like you inherited some of your father's experiences and trauma from the war in Vietnam. Are there other things that you think made you so effected by fear and pain that expressed itself as anger?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, once you get people in there, you need to be willing to drop your ego and let your guard down and actually listen to people. I think that when we initially got into the room, Damon - t"}
{"id": "902146762", "date": "2020-08-13", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Cord Jefferson. He was a writer on the HBO series \"Watchmen,\" which is nominated for 26 Emmys, more than any other show. He's nominated for writing Episode 6 with the showrunner Damon Lindelof. We'll be right back after we take a break. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think that, you know, I was - my family spent some time overseas when I was younger. But by the time I was 5 or 6, we had moved back to Tucson. And that's where I spent the rest of my childhoo"}
{"id": "902146762", "date": "2020-08-13", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Cord Jefferson. He wrote for the HBO series \"Watchmen\" and is nominated for an Emmy for writing Episode 6, the episode where Angela takes her grandfather's Nostalgia pills and experiences his life, including surviving the Tulsa massacre of 1921. \"Watchmen\" is nominated for a total of 26 Emmys. Cord Jefferson has also written for HBO's \"Succession.\" He wrote for \"The Good Place,\" \"Master Of None\" and Larry Wilmore's show of political satire and conversation \"The Nightly Show.\" He also wrote for the now-defunct website Gawker, where he was the site's West Coast editor, and the show that he's creating now is based on his experiences at Gawker. I want to talk with you about some of your personal essays. You've written some really good personal essays. One of them was about when you were diagnosed with atrial fibrillation, which is basically a very irregular or fast heartbeat, which can be very dangerous. And you open it by talking about how - and I want to frame this by saying, I think we're all feeling kind of vulnerable now because of the pandemic. But you open the essay by saying that you hadn't really thought much about vulnerability or death before, and you remember telling a girl that you dated in college - and I'll quote you - \"I'd like to be dead by 50. It was a stupid thing to say, the kind of low-risk rebellion a teenager from the suburbs engages to seem dangerous and irreverent, like smoking a joint or shoplifting or wearing eyeliner, all of which I have also tried.\" And you told your girlfriend, this world is trash; who would want to live here for a long time? And then when you were in your 20s or 30s, you had the heart issue. I'd like you to go back to when you were in college and thinking of that - of life in that way, like who wants to live past the age of 50. Can you go back into that mindset for us and tell us what that was like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think that, you know, I was - my family spent some time overseas when I was younger. But by the time I was 5 or 6, we had moved back to Tucson. And that's where I spent the rest of my childhoo"}
{"id": "902146762", "date": "2020-08-13", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I was a very, very angry young man in college. Like I said, I still think I deal with a lot of anger issues. And so I think that that was just - it was me being angry but not understanding that "}
{"id": "902146762", "date": "2020-08-13", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 15, "text": "I want to get back to what we started talking about here, which was your atrial fibrillation, the irregular heartbeat, that got you into the hospital, that could have killed you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...As opposed to what I actually sounded like, which is just a stupid kid. So I think that was me not fully understanding that what I was actually feeling was anger. And I think that I've talked to a "}
{"id": "902146762", "date": "2020-08-13", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 16, "text": "I mean, the doctors are all saying to you, like, good luck", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "902146762", "date": "2020-08-13", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "902146762", "date": "2020-08-13", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 18, "text": "Best of luck to you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's..."}
{"id": "902146762", "date": "2020-08-13", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 19, "text": "And you describe, like - you figure, well, OK, I'll take an Uber to the hospital, and they say, no, no, no, this is - you don't take an Uber; like, you're taking an ambulance. This is really serious. And you describe yourself reading Kurt Vonnegut's novel \"Slaughterhouse Five\" in the ambulance. And \"Slaughterhouse Five\" is set during World War II and the firebombing of Dresden.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It has a risk of stroke. The thing itself isn't very dangerous, but there's a stroke risk associated with it, which is dangerous."}
{"id": "902146762", "date": "2020-08-13", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 20, "text": "Thinking like, wow, that's not a great choice when you're heading to the hospital.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "902146762", "date": "2020-08-13", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 21, "text": "No, no. But, anyways, when you got through all of this, how did it change your feeling about your body and your vulnerability and mortality?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Not the most soothing reading."}
{"id": "902146762", "date": "2020-08-13", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 22, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Cord Jefferson. He was a writer on the HBO series \"Watchmen,\" which is nominated for 26 Emmys. He's nominated for writing the sixth episode. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I sort of immediately felt like I needed to change. I was - you know, I would smoke cigarettes. I was smoking cigarettes at the time, and I stopped doing that entirely. And I started exercising and ta"}
{"id": "902146762", "date": "2020-08-13", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Cord Jefferson. He wrote for the HBO series \"Watchmen\" and is nominated for an Emmy for writing Episode 6. He's also written for HBO's \"Succession,\" for \"The Good Place,\" \"Master Of None\" and Larry Wilmore's \"The Nightly Show.\" In 2014, you wrote a piece about your mother and her diagnosis of a type of breast cancer that's very aggressive and very difficult to treat, and I regret to say she died in 2016. And our sorry to you to hear that when we talked earlier.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I sort of immediately felt like I needed to change. I was - you know, I would smoke cigarettes. I was smoking cigarettes at the time, and I stopped doing that entirely. And I started exercising and ta"}
{"id": "902146762", "date": "2020-08-13", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 24, "text": "And you write a little bit about her history in that piece and about how - sounds like her mother suffered with a very severe undiagnosed depression, if we're talking about generational trauma.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks."}
{"id": "902146762", "date": "2020-08-13", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 25, "text": "Yeah, yeah. And your mother is white, and she - and your father is Black. And when your mother - I think when your mother started dating him, your grandfather on your mother's side was really angry. And I think when you were born, she - he refused to see her anymore because you were Black.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Well, my mom had a difficult childhood, too, so that is absolutely part of it."}
{"id": "902146762", "date": "2020-08-13", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 26, "text": "You know, you've talked about carrying around a lot of anger over the years, and I can only imagine how angry you would be when your own grandfather refused to even meet you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So my mother had been married right out of college to her first husband, who is white. And my dad was the consummate professional. He sort of finished her divorce proceedings, and she left his offic"}
{"id": "902146762", "date": "2020-08-13", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 27, "text": "...Because you were Black.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "902146762", "date": "2020-08-13", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 28, "text": "Yeah. I mean, it's one thing not to get the love that you want from a relative; it's another thing to be completely rejected and making a conscious decision to never even meet you. I mean, that's just - that's horrible.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. People think that the things that happen are just part of their lives. You don't really think of how it affects you at the time. You think that this is something that just happened, and I've dea"}
{"id": "902146762", "date": "2020-08-13", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 29, "text": "Yeah. How old were you when your parents divorced?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's - I was lucky to - I was raised in a home full of love. My dad and my mother had their own issues, but they never made me feel unloved. And so I think that that wa"}
{"id": "902146762", "date": "2020-08-13", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 30, "text": "One of your personal essays is about how you donated a kidney to your father in 2009, when your father was living in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. I've asked myself what would I do in a situation like that, and I don't know. Did he ask you, or did you just volunteer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was 14, the summer between my freshman and sophomore year of high school."}
{"id": "902146762", "date": "2020-08-13", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 31, "text": "What's it like to see your father and know that not only did he co-create you, but you live inside of him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I volunteered initially, but he rejected it initially. As soon as he told us that he was on dialysis and needed a kidney transplant, I said to him, I'll volunteer a kidney to you, please, and he said "}
{"id": "902146762", "date": "2020-08-13", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 32, "text": "You know, in your essay about your mother and her cancer diagnosis, you write, (reading) the world takes from us relentlessly. It takes our friends and first loves. It takes our parents. It takes our faith. It takes our dignity. It takes our passion. It takes our health. It takes our honesty, and it takes our credulity. To lose so much and still hold on to yourself is perhaps the most complicated task human beings are asked to perform. And, you know, reading that now, during the COVID pandemic, I think that just has a very special resonance now. And I'm wondering what the pandemic has been like for you so far, how you're finding a way to get by...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's - well, it felt like I was giving back. It felt like that was why it wasn't really a question. That's why I volunteered immediately, is because it felt like he'd given me life. He had suppo"}
{"id": "902146762", "date": "2020-08-13", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 33, "text": "...And, you know, how you're dealing with anxiety and fear while also trying to do your work, how vulnerable you do or don't feel.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's - well, it felt like I was giving back. It felt like that was why it wasn't really a question. That's why I volunteered immediately, is because it felt like he'd given me life. He had suppo"}
{"id": "902146762", "date": "2020-08-13", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 34, "text": "Well, I want to get back to very good news, which is that you're nominated for an Emmy for writing an episode of \"Watchmen,\" and the show's nominated for 26 Emmys. So that's a lot to celebrate. This isn't an easy time to celebrate because of the general mood, but also because, like, how are you going to celebrate? You can't go out to a restaurant. You can't go out to a bar.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I go to a whole lot of therapy. That's also been helping me."}
{"id": "902146762", "date": "2020-08-13", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 35, "text": "You can't have a party. So how did you celebrate the nomination, and what is the ceremony going to be like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "902146762", "date": "2020-08-13", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 36, "text": "Sounds great, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had some champagne and was in bed by 9:30 that night. That was..."}
{"id": "902146762", "date": "2020-08-13", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 37, "text": "Good luck to you at the Emmys.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think people want to see Regina King in her, like, beautiful gown, as well they should. But so I don't know if me and the fellow writers are going to get much screen time. So - but, you know, that's"}
{"id": "902146762", "date": "2020-08-13", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 38, "text": "It's been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much. I really appreciate it."}
{"id": "902146762", "date": "2020-08-13", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 39, "text": "Cord Jefferson is nominated for an Emmy for writing Episode 6 of the HBO series \"Watchmen.\" The series is nominated for 26 Emmys. After we take a short break, we'll remember our longtime language commentator Geoff Nunberg. He died Tuesday after a long illness. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've loved it. Thank you."}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Sister Helen Prejean, welcome back to FRESH AIR. You had not planned to be a social activist nun. You hadn't planned on being an anti-death penalty activist. What did you imagine being a nun would be like when you joined the Congregation of Sisters of St. Joseph at age 18?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm David Bianculli, editor of the website TV Worth Watching, sitting in for Terry Gross. Today's guest is Sister Helen Prejean, whose latest memoir, \"River Of Fire,\" comes out in paperback this month"}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 1, "text": "So did you feel that blind obedience and a lack of critical thinking were leading you closer to the mystical state that you wanted to be in, that you imagined being a nun would lead you closer to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was what the holy rule said and what convent life was like before Vatican II. You joined the religious life to seek a spiritual life of perfection, of union with God, love of neighbor, which "}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 2, "text": "Mother superior, not your mother.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just want to tell you I tried hard. I really did. But what I began to experience, just existentially inside myself, was I was giving up critical thinking. It was whatever Mother says has got to be w"}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 3, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. No, Mother superior is right. In religious life, you call superiors mother. And I began to find that it was kind of a quietism. It was kind of - well, I'm praying, but I wasn't intellectually st"}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 4, "text": "...You're talking about how nuns were treated. Now compare nuns to priests. You write that in the spiritual manuals of the day before Vatican II, that topping the list of womanly virtues was obedience, submission and resignation. So that's what you were supposed to practice. What about people who - like, men who were becoming priests? Was there an emphasis for them on obedience, submission and resignation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Let's talk about what you had to wear before Vatican II. What was it like wearing the habit? How did it feel? Did you feel like it was separating you from the world or just giving you a kind of uniform that told the world who you were and that got respect?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They had to give obedience to a bishop, but they were much more freewheeling. And they didn't make a vow of poverty, so they had money if their family had money. They could have cars. They could have "}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in a Catholic context - and you got to know that during this time, the religious women, religious orders were the ones that made the Catholic institutions run - the whole educational system and "}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 7, "text": "And New Orleans is hot and humid.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in a way, she was. How are you going to know she's not a bolt of material? With all that black, that's all you saw."}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Has the burqa ever seemed similar to you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, God. You want to - I mean, we had a funny sister, Sister Gert (ph). And she got on the bus one day. One of the ladies on the bus in New Orleans - it's July. And the lady said, oh, look at those si"}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 9, "text": "...To the habit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 10, "text": "And what does that say to you both about burqas and about habits?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know what? I think of that, Terry, I - when I'm in an airport, and I see people in burqas, I go, we were like that. We were covered head to toe, too, with a veil over our heads. I think of it a lo"}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Sister Helen Prejean. And she's written a new spiritual memoir that's called \"River Of Fire.\" We'll talk more after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that they're very, very similar, and they come out of a religious tradition and the way women, to be modest, were covered. I also see there can be great respect in wearing the burqa because if i"}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Sister Helen Prejean. She's written a new spiritual memoir called \"River Of Fire,\" and she's best known for her work with people on death row, her work opposing the death penalty. She was dramatized in the film \"Dead Man Walking,\" in which she was portrayed by Susan Sarandon. You entered the convent when you were in your late teens. This was just a few years before Vatican II, which initiated really groundbreaking reforms in the Catholic Church. And you write that the new insights of Vatican II helped you get your selfhood back after your futile attempts to relinquish it because part of what you were taught as a novitiate was to, as we were talking about, be obedient, be submissive and kind of turn off your critical thinking, which is, in a way, a denial of the actionable self.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that they're very, very similar, and they come out of a religious tradition and the way women, to be modest, were covered. I also see there can be great respect in wearing the burqa because if i"}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 13, "text": "But also, as you point out in the book, you were too young to really know yourself. I mean, like, you didn't really fully know what your self was. So what was it like to be able to assert yourself and remain a nun after Vatican II? And what were some of the ways you were able early on to assert yourself that - in ways that you couldn't before?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just want to say - you said when I was a novitiate. It's not - the novitiate is the place."}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Novice. Yes, right. Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was a novice."}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 16, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, a lot of people do that."}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A lot of people do it. OK, so waking up to self. Well, first of all, you would have to have permission. During the days of blind obedience, Mother would have to approve any book you read. So you're do"}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 18, "text": "You mean as opposed to being assigned it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know you're reading this. I hope you have a good day. So anyway, you can just see to - for intellectual freedom. And then the other thing was being able to choose or growing into what your service w"}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 19, "text": "So Vatican II is a turning point in many ways. And one very profound turning point is that it basically said the church can change.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely being assigned it. I mean, by assigned it, I mean we all go into chapel. We're all quiet. Oh, God, help me. I'm about to be assigned. I don't know where. And then you'd hear silence in the "}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 20, "text": "Things don't have to remain the same forever. And, you know, it points to reading the signs of the times.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 21, "text": "And do you feel like the church is still open to that, is still open to change?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Another thing regarding Vatican II, you say, at last we got to reclaim our humanness, all of it, including our physical selves, our bodies, our desires, even our sexuality. I was surprised to see sexuality...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, so when you use those words, the church, you're not talking about a monolithic body. And you're not mainly talking about the hierarchy. The church, as Vatican II said, is the people. So you have "}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 23, "text": "...In that sentence.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course you were."}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Coming from a nun, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course you were. The only..."}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 25, "text": "But I always thought that's a part of the being you were supposed to suppress if you were a nun.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, of course sexuality. You know, sexuality is present in us in a lot of ways. It's not just having genital sex with people. Sexuality is part of our being, so the sexuality..."}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 26, "text": "So you met a priest when you were in your 20s, and you were at the time studying together. And he fell in love with you, and I think you fell in love with him. But, of course, you wanted to observe the vow of chastity. And you write that this relationship was an example of what was being called the third way. Would you describe what the third way was?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, acting out of sexuality where you made a vow of celibacy, and here you are having affairs and having sex, that's not integral. That's not transparent. That's not true. But so, of course, when - "}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. And if you remember my description - that we would live our vows, but we would be close as man and woman as friends - and then I say in the book, if you think that sounds tricky and confusing, t"}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 28, "text": "Well, a problem in the relationship, too, was that he started drinking a lot - too much - and that you found that very troubling. And you broke off the relationship. Do you think he wanted to marry you and leave the priesthood and have you leave...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", when - sister said freedom and priests, and you'd be going away to study, as happened with me when I went to London, Ontario, it was a school of religious education. And you had priests and nuns, a "}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 29, "text": "...The order?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 30, "text": "So you eventually broke off your relationship with Will because he wanted to get married. You did not. He wanted to have a sexual relationship. You wanted to keep your vow of celibacy. So you broke it off and eventually became friends. I'm wondering if you - when I say eventually became friends, I mean you started your relationship on different terms.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, that was clear. And especially when we're together and he'd be coming on strong to me, I mean, sometimes - thank God I was physically fit. I mean, when he was drinking, it was not pleasant at all."}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 31, "text": "I'm wondering if you think it was very helpful to you as a nun to have experienced that relationship with Will because it taught you something about relationships, something...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely, yeah."}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 32, "text": "...You could bring into the world and understand the world around you better, the world that you are serving.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 33, "text": "You describe a rift in your community between the sisters who wanted to emphasize social justice and the sisters who wanted to focus on spiritual issues, and you started off in the spiritual camp. Why were you in the spiritual camp and not the social justice camp, which you eventually crossed over into?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with Terry's interview from last year with Sister Helen Prejean. Her latest spiritual memoir \"River Of Fire\" comes out this month in pa"}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 34, "text": "So after you started doing work in the housing project, that eventually led to your work on death row, with people living on death row.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, there were two main things driving that. One was I was really, like, in a spiritual cocoon. We had young girls coming over the motherhouse for retreats. I really did think that the way you chang"}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 35, "text": "And you've done a lot of work on behalf of opposing executions. Last month Attorney General William Barr announced that the federal government will resume the execution of death row inmates. The last federal execution was in 2003. I imagine this was a pretty discouraging announcement for you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, big surprise."}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 36, "text": "You've accompanied six people to their execution. You've witnessed those executions. Do you have any sense of what the men whose executions you've witnessed experienced in the last minutes of their lives and experienced as they were being executed? Is there anything you could read by watching them about what that must be like and how much - how long it takes, how much suffering is involved?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But expected. When you have, as the president of the United States, a man who took out full-page ads in New York newspapers presuming that the young Black boys and Hispanic boys of the Central Park Fi"}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 37, "text": "So you tried to be within eye contact of the men who you've accompanied...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course, I'm on the outside of them, but in a way, I'm on the inside of them, too, because I've gotten to know them. Conscious, imaginative beings sentenced to death cannot help but anticipate and i"}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 38, "text": "...On their execution.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 39, "text": "And the prison guards enable you to be in a position where the man being executed can see you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 40, "text": "So when you're with somebody as they're being executed or when you're in the place for witnesses, what are you trying to communicate with them, like, after the point where they can actually hear you reading the scripture?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it varies. In Louisiana, you're there with the witnesses. If you see Susan Sarandon in the movie - I mean, we worked on every line and scene of this movie. And you see her putting her hand out t"}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 41, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All the words have been spoken."}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 42, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In my faithfulness to them and in visiting them, they know my love and care for them and that I believe in their dignity. It's all presence then."}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 43, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Sister Helen Prejean. She's written a new spiritual memoir that's called \"River Of Fire.\" We'll talk more after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's just pure presence like when you're at the death of anyone. You're not making long speeches. It's - there's nothing to say. You look at my face. I'll be the face of Christ for you. It's pure pres"}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 44, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is Sister Helen Prejean. She's written a new spiritual memoir called \"River Of Fire.\" At the end of the book, you publish a letter that you wrote to Pope Francis, and you made a very stirring argument on behalf of more equality for nuns and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's just pure presence like when you're at the death of anyone. You're not making long speeches. It's - there's nothing to say. You look at my face. I'll be the face of Christ for you. It's pure pres"}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 45, "text": "Yeah, for women in the church, including nuns. And one of your arguments is, how can men really understand the world if women aren't their equals? And that applies to nuns and priests. And you also write about how you can preach in Protestant churches but not in your own. You can give sermons in Protestant churches against the death penalty. And even though the pope opposes the death penalty, you can't give the same sermon in your own Catholic Church.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For women in the church, not just nuns."}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 46, "text": "Didn't Pope Francis recently affirm that one thing that was not going to change was women being restricted from becoming priests?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Women can't preach in the Catholic Church. Women cannot read the gospel at mass. A young little pimply teenager who happens to be a boy could read the gospel. You got to be male. And seeing the millio"}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 47, "text": "So you still think it's going to change eventually, but not...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, he has said that. He has made statements on that."}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 48, "text": "...In the near future, I guess.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 49, "text": "At the end of your book, you write that you are now 80. Your parents died when they were 81. Your older sister is dead. And you write, death seems to be such a crapshoot. Either it's everything - union and love with all that is - or it's nothing - disintegration into a puny pile of chemicals. How has your understanding of death changed in all the years that you've been a nun?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just because that life moves in the spirit in the church. Look how long it took - 1,600 years to change the teaching of the Catholic Church on the death penalty to unequivocal opposition. So women - i"}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 50, "text": "Your sister.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in watching people actually go to their death, I've seen how they summon their courage to make the walk. They're very afraid, but they do it. They do it. I've watched Mama, Daddy, Mary Anne. It'"}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 51, "text": "Do you believe in a literal heaven and hell?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, my sister. She was always the brave one. Like, when we were doing tomboy things like jumping from a limb to catch a rope swing, I'm the last one on the branch. And she's going, Helen, jump. Don'"}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 52, "text": "That there actually is a heaven and that some people would be dispatched to heaven and some people will be scorched eternally in hell.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What do you mean by literal?"}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 53, "text": "Are there any parts of life that you regret having missed out on because of the vows that you took when you became a nun and the life that you've dedicated yourself to? It's been such a rich life in so many ways, but there are some things that you actually were pledged to deny yourself.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do not believe that if we say God is a loving and merciful God that God puts people in this frying pan and zaps them in fire for all eternity, plunges them into an eternal pain. What kind of God is "}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 54, "text": "Sister Helen Prejean, it's been such a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I was such an impetuous, spontaneous person, I guess, in a way, immature, not rounded out in relationships, like, with men and - so it's been a slow process to awaken to the deepest dimensio"}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 55, "text": "Do you feel like you're seeing that right now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, I love hearing that voice come on the radio. It's been a joy. Thank you so much for getting this book out because it's really important we get religion right because God - you know, religion is"}
{"id": "902522133", "date": "2020-08-14", "guest": "Helen Prejean", "title": "Sister Helen Prejean On Witnessing Executions: 'I Couldn't Let Them Die Alone'", "question_index": 56, "text": "Sister Helen, thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'll give one example - Jeff Sessions, before him Justice Scalia, quoting Romans 13, that if anything is the law in the United States, we obey civil authority because it has the authority of God. And "}
{"id": "904648300", "date": "2020-08-21", "guest": "Charles Cobb", "title": "Documentary Chronicles Students' Fight For Black Rights During 'Freedom Summer'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Stanley Nelson, Charles Cobb - welcome to FRESH AIR. Charles Cobb, you were a part of Freedom Summer. What was the idea behind Freedom Summer?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies in for Terry Gross. As debates rage about voting access in the November election, we're going to recall another time, more than a half century ago, when securing bal"}
{"id": "904648300", "date": "2020-08-21", "guest": "Charles Cobb", "title": "Documentary Chronicles Students' Fight For Black Rights During 'Freedom Summer'", "question_index": 1, "text": "And when you say the country's children, you mean college students.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To bring the country's attention on Mississippi. We had been working in the state for two to three years pretty much full time, meaning those of us with SNCC, the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Commi"}
{"id": "904648300", "date": "2020-08-21", "guest": "Charles Cobb", "title": "Documentary Chronicles Students' Fight For Black Rights During 'Freedom Summer'", "question_index": 2, "text": "Because there were white, middle-class students there, the press...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, the country students. We knew the people who would be coming would be mostly white and that the country would be concerned."}
{"id": "904648300", "date": "2020-08-21", "guest": "Charles Cobb", "title": "Documentary Chronicles Students' Fight For Black Rights During 'Freedom Summer'", "question_index": 3, "text": "...The press would be paying attention.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And danger."}
{"id": "904648300", "date": "2020-08-21", "guest": "Charles Cobb", "title": "Documentary Chronicles Students' Fight For Black Rights During 'Freedom Summer'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Government officials would be paying attention.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "904648300", "date": "2020-08-21", "guest": "Charles Cobb", "title": "Documentary Chronicles Students' Fight For Black Rights During 'Freedom Summer'", "question_index": 5, "text": "1964 is the summer of Freedom Summer in Mississippi. It's also the summer - July 2, to be precise - that President Johnson signs the Civil Rights Act into law. So that begins the official desegregation of the South. Why was the emphasis in Mississippi's Freedom Summer on voter registration as opposed to desegregation? I mean, this was the era of lunch counter sit-ins, of other movements to try to desegregate the South.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Would be paying attention."}
{"id": "904648300", "date": "2020-08-21", "guest": "Charles Cobb", "title": "Documentary Chronicles Students' Fight For Black Rights During 'Freedom Summer'", "question_index": 6, "text": "Stanley Nelson, your film points out that, within SNCC, this idea of bringing down white, middle-class students from the North to help lead voter registration drives in Mississippi was actually controversial. It was controversial within SNCC. And, Charles Cobb, in fact, early on you opposed the idea of Freedom Summer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Most of the civil rights leadership in the South had come to the decision, even long before we even got involved in a place like Mississippi, that voter registration was the most important thing to do"}
{"id": "904648300", "date": "2020-08-21", "guest": "Charles Cobb", "title": "Documentary Chronicles Students' Fight For Black Rights During 'Freedom Summer'", "question_index": 7, "text": "You opposed bringing down white students from the North. What was the problem that you and some other members of SNCC had with this idea?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "904648300", "date": "2020-08-21", "guest": "Charles Cobb", "title": "Documentary Chronicles Students' Fight For Black Rights During 'Freedom Summer'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Funny thing is, you were from the outside, too. You weren't from Mississippi; you were from Massachusetts", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the - our objection or opposition to the summer project unfortunately has been racialized more than it should be. We were fundamentally opposed to bringing a large number of college students f"}
{"id": "904648300", "date": "2020-08-21", "guest": "Charles Cobb", "title": "Documentary Chronicles Students' Fight For Black Rights During 'Freedom Summer'", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the - our objection or opposition to the summer project unfortunately has been racialized more than it should be. We were fundamentally opposed to bringing a large number of college students f"}
{"id": "904648300", "date": "2020-08-21", "guest": "Charles Cobb", "title": "Documentary Chronicles Students' Fight For Black Rights During 'Freedom Summer'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Fannie Lou Hamer, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. Mrs. Hamer - when I voiced objection, Mrs. Hamer - Mrs. Fannie Lou Hamer..."}
{"id": "904648300", "date": "2020-08-21", "guest": "Charles Cobb", "title": "Documentary Chronicles Students' Fight For Black Rights During 'Freedom Summer'", "question_index": 11, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Backed me up against the wall and said, well, Charlie, I'm glad you came down here. What's the problem with other people coming down here? Now, what can I say to that? Well, nothing."}
{"id": "904648300", "date": "2020-08-21", "guest": "Charles Cobb", "title": "Documentary Chronicles Students' Fight For Black Rights During 'Freedom Summer'", "question_index": 12, "text": "And you mentioned Fannie Lou Hamer as being the person who changed your mind. Stanley Nelson, what is Fannie Lou Hamer's importance in Mississippi's Freedom Summer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And let it go. What meant was, obviously, that I might have objections to the summer project, but I wasn't going to fight Mrs. Hamer over this or any - all the people who opposed the summer project we"}
{"id": "904648300", "date": "2020-08-21", "guest": "Charles Cobb", "title": "Documentary Chronicles Students' Fight For Black Rights During 'Freedom Summer'", "question_index": 13, "text": "Stanley Nelson, can you talk about how SNCC recruited students from the North?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, Fannie Lou Hamer was essential. I think one of the reasons why she was essential was, you know, she had been a sharecropper, and she was a Mississippian. And, you know, she - as Bob Mose"}
{"id": "904648300", "date": "2020-08-21", "guest": "Charles Cobb", "title": "Documentary Chronicles Students' Fight For Black Rights During 'Freedom Summer'", "question_index": 14, "text": "So there were training sessions held for the students who were going to go to Mississippi. Give us a sense of what the training sessions are like. What advice did the SNCC organizers have for how to deal with danger?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think that, you know, very early it was decided that - to bring down 700 to 1,000 students, and they went about recruiting in different ways, mainly from - as my understanding, from college ca"}
{"id": "904648300", "date": "2020-08-21", "guest": "Charles Cobb", "title": "Documentary Chronicles Students' Fight For Black Rights During 'Freedom Summer'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Or how to not do that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, mainly, we could show people how best to try and protect yourself from actual physical - what to do if you're attacked by a mob, how to cover your body, how to protect somebody you're with witho"}
{"id": "904648300", "date": "2020-08-21", "guest": "Charles Cobb", "title": "Documentary Chronicles Students' Fight For Black Rights During 'Freedom Summer'", "question_index": 16, "text": "During the training sessions, three of the people associated with Freedom Summer were murdered - Mickey Schwerner and Andrew Goodman, two white Northerners, and James Chaney, who was African American and a member of CORE, the Congress on Racial Equality. Stanley, do you want to tell the story of what happened to them - of who they were and what happened?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're listening back to an interview from our archives about the Mississippi Freedom Summer, the drive to support voting rights in Mississippi during the summer of 1964. SNCC, the S"}
{"id": "904648300", "date": "2020-08-21", "guest": "Charles Cobb", "title": "Documentary Chronicles Students' Fight For Black Rights During 'Freedom Summer'", "question_index": 17, "text": "And then, eventually, their bodies were discovered. And, Charles Cobb, can you tell us the effect that that had on the plans for Freedom Summer? I mean, before it had actually really begun, three people are murdered - just an example of the violence, the hatred and the danger that faced all the people who planned on going to Mississippi.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Mickey Schwerner had been in Mississippi for months before as an organizer. James Chaney was a local African American Mississippian who was also a part of CORE and an organizer. They had gone up"}
{"id": "904648300", "date": "2020-08-21", "guest": "Charles Cobb", "title": "Documentary Chronicles Students' Fight For Black Rights During 'Freedom Summer'", "question_index": 18, "text": "So once everybody gets to the South, everybody from Freedom Summer, the white students move into the homes of African Americans. They're living in the Black community there. It's the only safe place for them. But they're exposed to a way of life and a kind of poverty, in many cases, that they'd never seen before. Stanley Nelson, you interviewed a lot of the students who had come - a lot of the people who were students in 1964 and came down for Freedom Summer. Tell us a little bit about what they were exposed to that opened up their eyes about what life was like for African Americans in Mississippi, in rural Mississippi.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, it affected the volunteers more than us. As soon as we heard - and we were all in Oxford, Miss., that Mickey and \"Jimmy\" James Chaney and Andrew Goodman were missing. We assumed they w"}
{"id": "904648300", "date": "2020-08-21", "guest": "Charles Cobb", "title": "Documentary Chronicles Students' Fight For Black Rights During 'Freedom Summer'", "question_index": 19, "text": "Do you think that this was a revelation to some Black people in Mississippi that not all white people were racist?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. You know, as you said, there was no place else for them to stay. I mean, you know, there were no hotels. They couldn't stay in a hotel. They really had to stay with the African American communi"}
{"id": "904648300", "date": "2020-08-21", "guest": "Charles Cobb", "title": "Documentary Chronicles Students' Fight For Black Rights During 'Freedom Summer'", "question_index": 20, "text": "So we know - we talked a little bit about how the white students were trained about what to expect, what not to do, how to defend themselves in Mississippi. At the same time, the white authorities in Mississippi, they were gearing up for Mississippi summer. What did they do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think - yeah, I think for so many Black people in the community, as they say in the film, this was the first time they were exposed to white people who had kind of come to help them and who were not"}
{"id": "904648300", "date": "2020-08-21", "guest": "Charles Cobb", "title": "Documentary Chronicles Students' Fight For Black Rights During 'Freedom Summer'", "question_index": 21, "text": "So, you know, one of the goals of Mississippi Freedom Summer was to register African American people to vote. But it was hard to do. People were afraid. What were some of the things they were afraid of if they actually registered to vote?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When the white community heard that this Freedom Summer was going to happen, I think in some ways they overreacted completely. In Jackson, Miss., the city bought a tank that they armed. You know, they"}
{"id": "904648300", "date": "2020-08-21", "guest": "Charles Cobb", "title": "Documentary Chronicles Students' Fight For Black Rights During 'Freedom Summer'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Charles Cobb, did the members of SNCC who organized Mississippi Freedom Summer think that the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party would actually be seated at the Democratic convention and be allowed to replace the official Mississippi delegation? Did you see it as a more symbolic action, or did you think, you know, we have a chance in the real world of politics this might actually happen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "1964 was a presidential election year, and Lyndon Johnson would be nominated for the presidency in Atlantic City. So the idea of the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party was to take an alternate deleg"}
{"id": "904648300", "date": "2020-08-21", "guest": "Charles Cobb", "title": "Documentary Chronicles Students' Fight For Black Rights During 'Freedom Summer'", "question_index": 23, "text": "What did President Johnson do to prevent - to try to prevent the Mississippi delegation from being seated at the convention?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let me add something about the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party and the convention. The Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party got what it wanted at the convention. It got its hearing at the convent"}
{"id": "904648300", "date": "2020-08-21", "guest": "Charles Cobb", "title": "Documentary Chronicles Students' Fight For Black Rights During 'Freedom Summer'", "question_index": 24, "text": "What is your understanding of why LBJ didn't want the alternate delegation seated? He had already signed the Civil Rights Act. He worked really hard to get that passed. So what was his fear?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He threatened people. He said, you know, you want to be a judge? Not if you support the MFDP. He used Hubert Humphrey as his hatchet man, in fact, dangling the vice presidency over Hubert Humphrey's h"}
{"id": "904648300", "date": "2020-08-21", "guest": "Charles Cobb", "title": "Documentary Chronicles Students' Fight For Black Rights During 'Freedom Summer'", "question_index": 25, "text": "So a compromise was reached. What was the compromise?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think, you know, LBJ was a complicated man. You know, he wanted the Democratic National Convention to be kind of a coronation, you know, of him and for it to go very, very smoothly. From all i"}
{"id": "904648300", "date": "2020-08-21", "guest": "Charles Cobb", "title": "Documentary Chronicles Students' Fight For Black Rights During 'Freedom Summer'", "question_index": 26, "text": "A compromise was proposed. I'll put it that way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think a compromise was ever really reached. And, Charlie, you should probably speak on that."}
{"id": "904648300", "date": "2020-08-21", "guest": "Charles Cobb", "title": "Documentary Chronicles Students' Fight For Black Rights During 'Freedom Summer'", "question_index": 27, "text": "It wasn't proposed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it wasn't proposed."}
{"id": "904648300", "date": "2020-08-21", "guest": "Charles Cobb", "title": "Documentary Chronicles Students' Fight For Black Rights During 'Freedom Summer'", "question_index": 28, "text": "It was announced. Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was announced."}
{"id": "904648300", "date": "2020-08-21", "guest": "Charles Cobb", "title": "Documentary Chronicles Students' Fight For Black Rights During 'Freedom Summer'", "question_index": 29, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was announced."}
{"id": "904648300", "date": "2020-08-21", "guest": "Charles Cobb", "title": "Documentary Chronicles Students' Fight For Black Rights During 'Freedom Summer'", "question_index": 30, "text": "You mentioned the fear of Southern Democrats. Was that another reason, do you think, why LBJ was so concerned about the Mississippi alternate delegation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And the Mississippi - the regular delegation from Mississippi would retain its 68 delegates."}
{"id": "904648300", "date": "2020-08-21", "guest": "Charles Cobb", "title": "Documentary Chronicles Students' Fight For Black Rights During 'Freedom Summer'", "question_index": 31, "text": "So the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party, the alternate delegation, refused this compromise. So no one from that alternate delegation was seated with the official Mississippi delegation. Charles Cobb, looking back on 1964 and Mississippi Freedom Summer, what do you think the outcomes were? What were the gains?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Johnson - I understand it, you know, from a strictly political sense. I mean, Johnson saw the Democratic Party losing the entire Southern wing of the Democratic Party, and he was right in that 'cau"}
{"id": "904648300", "date": "2020-08-21", "guest": "Charles Cobb", "title": "Documentary Chronicles Students' Fight For Black Rights During 'Freedom Summer'", "question_index": 32, "text": "The following year, 1965, Congress passes - President Johnson signs the Voting Rights Act. Do you see a direct connection between the passage of the Voting Rights Act and Mississippi Freedom Summer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One important gain was the challenge of the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party changed the national Democratic Party. It's out of this challenge that you get what are now known as the McGovern rules"}
{"id": "904648300", "date": "2020-08-21", "guest": "Charles Cobb", "title": "Documentary Chronicles Students' Fight For Black Rights During 'Freedom Summer'", "question_index": 33, "text": "So you see the Voting Rights Act as being realpolitik in a way, like a practical thing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. With Dixiecrats fleeing the Democratic Party, the obvious way to go would be to take advantage of the potential - Black voting potential that existed in the South. I think the Democratic Party an"}
{"id": "904648300", "date": "2020-08-21", "guest": "Charles Cobb", "title": "Documentary Chronicles Students' Fight For Black Rights During 'Freedom Summer'", "question_index": 34, "text": "What did the Voting Rights Act, which was passed in 1965, do to help African Americans actually get the right to vote in the South?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. If you're just joining us, we're talking about the Mississippi Freedom Summer of 1964, when 700 college students from the North came to Mississippi to organize for voter registratio"}
{"id": "904648300", "date": "2020-08-21", "guest": "Charles Cobb", "title": "Documentary Chronicles Students' Fight For Black Rights During 'Freedom Summer'", "question_index": 35, "text": "What were the provisions of the Voting Rights Act that changed things?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it dramatically expanded the number of voters. The place I'm tempted to point at - out is not Mississippi but Lowndes County, Ala., which had no Black registered voters at the beginning of 1965,"}
{"id": "904648300", "date": "2020-08-21", "guest": "Charles Cobb", "title": "Documentary Chronicles Students' Fight For Black Rights During 'Freedom Summer'", "question_index": 36, "text": "Lyndon Johnson is such an interesting figure in the history of the civil rights movement. And there's a moment I want to play that you use in the film of a conversation that he has with the then-head of the FBI, J. Edgar Hoover. And this is after Rita Schwerner, who was then the widow of Mickey Schwerner, one of the three civil rights workers who were killed in Mississippi early on in Mississippi Freedom Summer, she meets with LBJ. And Stanley Nelson, what does she talk to him about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One of the things the Voting Rights Act did was put certain areas under federal protection. So in Mississippi, before the Voting Rights Act, less than 10% of African Americans were registered to vote."}
{"id": "904648300", "date": "2020-08-21", "guest": "Charles Cobb", "title": "Documentary Chronicles Students' Fight For Black Rights During 'Freedom Summer'", "question_index": 37, "text": "And you point out in the film that she was very assertive in asking for this. She says, this isn't a social occasion.; here's what we need to get done.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she wants to make sure that the - that there's a real effort to find her husband. At this point, her husband and James Chaney and Andy Goodman are missing, and they've been missing for the whole"}
{"id": "904648300", "date": "2020-08-21", "guest": "Charles Cobb", "title": "Documentary Chronicles Students' Fight For Black Rights During 'Freedom Summer'", "question_index": 38, "text": "So I want to play a phone conversation that's featured in your film between LBJ and FBI head J. Edgar Hoover after LBJ meets with Rita Schwerner. Here's that conversation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Rita Schwerner's an amazing figure. I mean, she - when her husband goes missing, you know, she is in some ways driving this search. But she's also keeping it - the focus on Mississippi and Freedom Sum"}
{"id": "904648300", "date": "2020-08-21", "guest": "Charles Cobb", "title": "Documentary Chronicles Students' Fight For Black Rights During 'Freedom Summer'", "question_index": 39, "text": "You know, I think that's very interesting 'cause the first thing that happens is LBJ, after Hoover, you know, calls the Schwerners Communists, LBJ says, no, it's even worse than that. She's rude. She's ugly. And then he says, but I told her, you know, that we'd put down as many people as we can to help out and that you - Hoover - I'd let you decide how many people we could spare. So Charles Cobb, how do you interpret this conversation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. She was awfully mean and very ugly. And she came in this afternoon. She wants thousands of extra people put down there and said I'm the only one that has the authority to do it. I told her I'd p"}
{"id": "904648300", "date": "2020-08-21", "guest": "Charles Cobb", "title": "Documentary Chronicles Students' Fight For Black Rights During 'Freedom Summer'", "question_index": 40, "text": "I want to thank you both so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think Johnson felt that if he did anything, no matter how small, the right attitude should be gratitude. So he was upset with Rita because she didn't come in here saying thank you very much fo"}
{"id": "905403716", "date": "2020-08-24", "guest": "Jean Guerrero", "title": "'Hatemonger' Paints Trump Advisor Stephen Miller As A 'Case Study In Radicalization'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. It's impossible to understand the Trump era, with its unparalleled polarization, without tracing Stephen Miller's journey to the White House. That's what my guest, Jean Guerrero, writes in her new book, \"Hatemonger: Stephen Miller, Donald Trump, And The White Nationalist Agenda.\" She describes Miller as the architect of Trump's border and immigration policies, helping Trump, quote, \"conjure an invasion of animals to come steal American jobs and spill American blood,\" unquote. She describes the ideological arc of Miller's life and investigates his ties to right-wing mentors and far-right groups. She adds, many are baffled at how someone so young with so little policy or legal expertise gained so much power, outlasting and overtaking his mentor, Steve Bannon, Trump's former chief strategist. Her book helps show how he did it. Guerrero is an investigative reporter who formerly was with KPBS, the radio and TV station in San Diego. She previously covered Mexico and Central America for The Wall Street Journal and Dow Jones Newswires. She's the author of a previous book called \"Crux: A Cross-Border Memoir\" about growing up with a Mexican father and Puerto Rican mother. Jean Guerrero, welcome to FRESH AIR. Let's talk about the arc of Stephen Miller's ideology. He was anti-immigration in high school, and you describe him as growing up in California at a time when there was a strong anti-immigration movement. What are some of the things in his world, in his personal life that you think helped lead to his extreme views on immigration?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "905403716", "date": "2020-08-24", "guest": "Jean Guerrero", "title": "'Hatemonger' Paints Trump Advisor Stephen Miller As A 'Case Study In Radicalization'", "question_index": 1, "text": "So during the period of Stephen Miller's life when he started to be kind of radicalized about immigration, be very anti-immigration, it was also the period when his father had one or more economic setbacks. What was going on in his family at the time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So this is one of the reasons I was drawn to Stephen Miller's story, the fact that he grew up in Southern California in the '90s at the same time that I did. You know, I'm a couple years younge"}
{"id": "905403716", "date": "2020-08-24", "guest": "Jean Guerrero", "title": "'Hatemonger' Paints Trump Advisor Stephen Miller As A 'Case Study In Radicalization'", "question_index": 2, "text": "Back when Stephen Miller was in high school, he listened to right-wing talk radio. He listened to Rush Limbaugh, who was broadcasting out of California then. And he listened to a show called \"The Larry Elder Show\" on KABC. The LA Times described Larry Elder as a darling of white listeners who seemed to almost gush when they telephoned him on KABC talk radio, astonished to find a Black man who not only wasn't going to chastise them but who often agreed with them. So he starts off listening to \"Larry Elder,\" then he calls in to \"Larry Elder,\" then he becomes a guest on \"Larry Elder.\" How did he get to the point of being a guest on right-wing talk radio?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Stephen Miller's family was going through a period of turmoil that, you know, kind of mirrored the period of turmoil that California was experiencing at the time. You know, Stephen Miller's dad - h"}
{"id": "905403716", "date": "2020-08-24", "guest": "Jean Guerrero", "title": "'Hatemonger' Paints Trump Advisor Stephen Miller As A 'Case Study In Radicalization'", "question_index": 3, "text": "And it was through being on Larry Elder's show that David Horowitz heard him. Describe who David Horowitz is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. From a very young age, Stephen Miller has been really great about using the media to forward his views and to get power. And, you know, when he was a teenager, Larry Elder, when he heard Stephen"}
{"id": "905403716", "date": "2020-08-24", "guest": "Jean Guerrero", "title": "'Hatemonger' Paints Trump Advisor Stephen Miller As A 'Case Study In Radicalization'", "question_index": 4, "text": "And he told Stephen Miller hope and fear are the two greatest weapons in politics. But fear is more compelling and that Republicans should appeal to Americans' base instincts rather than talk about Republicans' success at job creation. Instead, attack the Democrats as job destroyers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So David Horowitz is a former Marxist who became a conservative writer. And during this time that he met Stephen Miller, he was really focused on teaching young conservatives like Stephen Miller"}
{"id": "905403716", "date": "2020-08-24", "guest": "Jean Guerrero", "title": "'Hatemonger' Paints Trump Advisor Stephen Miller As A 'Case Study In Radicalization'", "question_index": 5, "text": "So David Horowitz, who we've been talking about, who became a mentor, a far-right mentor to Stephen Miller - you know, Horowitz started off as as a leftist. He was one of the editors of the leftist magazine Ramparts. He, I think, was, you know, an ally of the Black Panthers. Like, what do you know about why and how he changed so radically? He moved from, like, one pole to the other.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. He is the one who really taught Stephen Miller the importance of appealing to people's base instincts. He eventually feeds a strategy paper to Stephen Miller that talks about the political utilit"}
{"id": "905403716", "date": "2020-08-24", "guest": "Jean Guerrero", "title": "'Hatemonger' Paints Trump Advisor Stephen Miller As A 'Case Study In Radicalization'", "question_index": 6, "text": "We have to take a short break here. So let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jean Guerrero, author of the new book \"Hatemonger: Stephen Miller, Donald Trump, And The White Nationalist Agenda.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, David Horowitz had recommended his friend Betsy to work on the accounting for the Black Panthers. She's a white woman. And she ended up being murdered. And the murder was never solved, b"}
{"id": "905403716", "date": "2020-08-24", "guest": "Jean Guerrero", "title": "'Hatemonger' Paints Trump Advisor Stephen Miller As A 'Case Study In Radicalization'", "question_index": 7, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jean Guerrero, author of the new book \"Hatemonger: Stephen Miller, Donald Trump, And The White Nationalist Agenda.\" She is a former investigative reporter for KPBS, the public TV and radio station in San Diego. She's now freelance and continues to report for public media. She previously covered Mexico and Central America for the Wall Street Journal and Dow Jones Newswires. So we've been talking about how David Horowitz mentored Stephen Miller. And Horowitz helped Stephen Miller launch his career. He first got him a job with Michele Bachmann when she was elected as a congressperson, and she was very conservative. So what job did he get working with Michele Bachmann?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, David Horowitz had recommended his friend Betsy to work on the accounting for the Black Panthers. She's a white woman. And she ended up being murdered. And the murder was never solved, b"}
{"id": "905403716", "date": "2020-08-24", "guest": "Jean Guerrero", "title": "'Hatemonger' Paints Trump Advisor Stephen Miller As A 'Case Study In Radicalization'", "question_index": 8, "text": "So David Horowitz first gets Stephen Miller a job with Congressperson Michele Bachmann. And then from there, Horowitz gets Miller a job with Jeff Sessions when Jeff Sessions was a senator from Alabama who, like Stephen Miller, was very anti-immigration. So what was the relationship like between Sessions and Miller when Miller was working for him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was hired as a press secretary for Bachmann, and that was his first job. And that's kind of where Stephen Miller starts to learn about, you know, how to write these very hyperbolic press releases. "}
{"id": "905403716", "date": "2020-08-24", "guest": "Jean Guerrero", "title": "'Hatemonger' Paints Trump Advisor Stephen Miller As A 'Case Study In Radicalization'", "question_index": 9, "text": "So he becomes Jeff Sessions' press secretary, and then Sessions and Miller end up in the Trump administration. And Steve Bannon helped get Stephen Miller into the Trump administration, and Bannon was another one of Stephen Miller's mentors. What was Bannon's role in Stephen Miller's life before Bannon was pushed out of the Trump administration?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Miller - you know, he really helped to turn Jeff Sessions into sort of a very combative personality. He - I mean, Sessions was already a leading nativist on Capitol Hill when Stephen Miller joined."}
{"id": "905403716", "date": "2020-08-24", "guest": "Jean Guerrero", "title": "'Hatemonger' Paints Trump Advisor Stephen Miller As A 'Case Study In Radicalization'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Let's take another break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jean Guerrero, author of the new book \"Hatemonger: Stephen Miller, Donald Trump, And The White Nationalist Agenda.\" She's an investigative reporter who has covered the border, Mexico and Central America for years. We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Bannon, you know, gives Stephen Miller a platform on Breitbart while Stephen Miller was working for Jeff Sessions. Basically, Stephen Miller was given free reign over a lot of the writers at Breitb"}
{"id": "905403716", "date": "2020-08-24", "guest": "Jean Guerrero", "title": "'Hatemonger' Paints Trump Advisor Stephen Miller As A 'Case Study In Radicalization'", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Jean Guerrero, author of the new book \"Hatemonger: Stephen Miller, Donald Trump, And The White Nationalist Agenda.\" She describes Miller as the architect of Trump's border and immigration policies. She writes about the ideological arc of Miller's life, his ties to right-wing mentors and far-right groups, how he managed to enter and stay in the Trump administration and pressured the Department of Homeland Security to focus on immigration. Guerrero is an investigative reporter who formerly reported for KPBS, the public station in San Diego. She continues to report freelance for public radio and television. And she's reported on Mexico and Central America for years. So Stephen Miller, in the meantime, had been cultivating ties to far-right, anti-immigration groups like FAIR - the Federation for American Immigration Reform - and CIS - the Center for Immigration Studies. These are two groups that the Southern Poverty Law Center describes as hate groups. What are some of the views that you think Stephen Miller picked up from these far-right, anti-immigration groups?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Bannon, you know, gives Stephen Miller a platform on Breitbart while Stephen Miller was working for Jeff Sessions. Basically, Stephen Miller was given free reign over a lot of the writers at Breitb"}
{"id": "905403716", "date": "2020-08-24", "guest": "Jean Guerrero", "title": "'Hatemonger' Paints Trump Advisor Stephen Miller As A 'Case Study In Radicalization'", "question_index": 12, "text": "The kind of over-the-top language that Stephen Miller uses when he speaks and when he writes speeches for President Trump - the \"American Carnage\" kind of language - you connect that, in part, to a novel called \"The Camp Of The Saints\" from 1973, a dystopian novel that influenced John Tanton, who founded the anti-immigration groups that you were talking about, influenced the person who funded those groups. And I think Stephen Miller read that book, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Stephen Miller ends up actually adopting almost verbatim the immigration policies that were recommended by these think tanks, particularly the Federation for American Immigration Reform, which i"}
{"id": "905403716", "date": "2020-08-24", "guest": "Jean Guerrero", "title": "'Hatemonger' Paints Trump Advisor Stephen Miller As A 'Case Study In Radicalization'", "question_index": 13, "text": "And the title, \"The Camp Of The Saints,\" comes from something in the book of Revelation. So it's very apocalyptic. So you know, what I'm hearing you say is that Stephen Miller, who is very important in the Trump administration - writes some of his speeches, has had a huge impact on immigration policy in the Trump administration - that he is deeply influenced by apocalyptic, white supremacist thinking.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, Terry. This is a book that Stephen Miller actually promoted in 2015. It's - he sent an email to some Breitbart writers telling them to write an article showing parallels between the book and real"}
{"id": "905403716", "date": "2020-08-24", "guest": "Jean Guerrero", "title": "'Hatemonger' Paints Trump Advisor Stephen Miller As A 'Case Study In Radicalization'", "question_index": 14, "text": "The book \"The Camp Of The Saints.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, and if you look at the way that this book demonizes the allies of people of color - because that's another core component of this book. In addition to demonizing..."}
{"id": "905403716", "date": "2020-08-24", "guest": "Jean Guerrero", "title": "'Hatemonger' Paints Trump Advisor Stephen Miller As A 'Case Study In Radicalization'", "question_index": 15, "text": "You write that Stephen Miller pushed for the daily demonization of migrants in press releases about their crimes. So how did he do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"The Camp Of The Saints,\" yeah. It demonizes people of color. But it also demonizes their allies. It demonizes anti-racists as agitators and anarchists and as mobs, which you then now see Trump using "}
{"id": "905403716", "date": "2020-08-24", "guest": "Jean Guerrero", "title": "'Hatemonger' Paints Trump Advisor Stephen Miller As A 'Case Study In Radicalization'", "question_index": 16, "text": "And that they have gang tattoos?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One of the first things that Stephen Miller did when he entered the White House was work on an executive order that established an office that was dedicated to the daily demonization of immigrants. It"}
{"id": "905403716", "date": "2020-08-24", "guest": "Jean Guerrero", "title": "'Hatemonger' Paints Trump Advisor Stephen Miller As A 'Case Study In Radicalization'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Was Stephen Miller the architect of the family separation policy that separated children from their parents?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, gang tattoos. He was obsessed with showing the gang tattoos."}
{"id": "905403716", "date": "2020-08-24", "guest": "Jean Guerrero", "title": "'Hatemonger' Paints Trump Advisor Stephen Miller As A 'Case Study In Radicalization'", "question_index": 18, "text": "Do you have any insights into whether Stephen Miller ever had any pangs of guilt about separating children from their parents and basically putting them in cages, about having a policy with no way of connecting parents and children? Aren't there still children who have not been reconnected with their parents and parents who were deported without their children?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Stephen Miller was one of the primary advocates of this policy. He didn't come up with the idea. It was actually an official at ICE who brought it to the table, but Stephen Miller became, you know, it"}
{"id": "905403716", "date": "2020-08-24", "guest": "Jean Guerrero", "title": "'Hatemonger' Paints Trump Advisor Stephen Miller As A 'Case Study In Radicalization'", "question_index": 19, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jean Guerrero, author of the new book \"Hatemonger: Stephen Miller, Donald Trump, And The White Nationalist Agenda.\" We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. Hundreds of parents were deported without their children. And people were lost in this process because there wasn't sufficient coordination between the Department of Homeland Security and the"}
{"id": "905403716", "date": "2020-08-24", "guest": "Jean Guerrero", "title": "'Hatemonger' Paints Trump Advisor Stephen Miller As A 'Case Study In Radicalization'", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jean Guerrero, author of the new book \"Hatemonger: Stephen Miller, Donald Trump, And The White Nationalist Agenda.\" She's an investigative reporter who formerly worked for KPBS, the public station in San Diego. She's covered the border, Mexico and Central America for years and used to work for The Wall Street Journal and the Dow Jones Newswires. The National Security Council historically coordinates refugee admissions with the State Department, the Department of Defense and intelligence agencies. Did Stephen Miller try to minimize their role?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. Hundreds of parents were deported without their children. And people were lost in this process because there wasn't sufficient coordination between the Department of Homeland Security and the"}
{"id": "905403716", "date": "2020-08-24", "guest": "Jean Guerrero", "title": "'Hatemonger' Paints Trump Advisor Stephen Miller As A 'Case Study In Radicalization'", "question_index": 21, "text": "How did Stephen Miller get the power to try to shut out the National Security Council?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. From the very beginning, he tried to completely elbow them out. He tried to make himself be the only person in charge, but he wasn't able to succeed in completely eliminating their voices from th"}
{"id": "905403716", "date": "2020-08-24", "guest": "Jean Guerrero", "title": "'Hatemonger' Paints Trump Advisor Stephen Miller As A 'Case Study In Radicalization'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Well, among the many riddles surrounding Stephen Miller is - you know, he's Jewish. His grandparents were immigrants. And he espouses some views that are espoused by white supremacists. White supremacist hate Jews.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well - so Stephen Miller found ways around the bureaucracy. So he was repeatedly calling - he would reach deep into the bowels of agencies to call lower-ranking officials and and make his demands - so"}
{"id": "905403716", "date": "2020-08-24", "guest": "Jean Guerrero", "title": "'Hatemonger' Paints Trump Advisor Stephen Miller As A 'Case Study In Radicalization'", "question_index": 23, "text": "They would like Jews to, like, leave the country or at least live in a separate space on their own. How does he reconcile that? I'm sure you don't know the answer to that. But don't you wonder?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm hmm."}
{"id": "905403716", "date": "2020-08-24", "guest": "Jean Guerrero", "title": "'Hatemonger' Paints Trump Advisor Stephen Miller As A 'Case Study In Radicalization'", "question_index": 24, "text": "How have people in Stephen Miller's extended family reacted to his extreme views?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do. You know, I - one of the stories that I found the most interesting in my research for the book is the story of Stephen Miller's grandmother Ruth, who on his - his grandmother on his mother's sid"}
{"id": "905403716", "date": "2020-08-24", "guest": "Jean Guerrero", "title": "'Hatemonger' Paints Trump Advisor Stephen Miller As A 'Case Study In Radicalization'", "question_index": 25, "text": "You know, for the most part, President Trump has really downplayed the pandemic. He's talked about how we have the best numbers in the world, how it's going to just miraculously disappear. There's going to be a vaccine, like, really soon. And he just hasn't really recognized how damaging the pandemic has been to every aspect of life in America and how Black people and people of color have been especially hard-hit by the pandemic. Stephen Miller's grandmother died from COVID-19. And she is the daughter of Jewish refugees who fled before the Holocaust. What questions does that raise for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I interviewed a number of his relatives. And most people in his family, with the exception of his parents and his siblings, who declined to talk to me - they're very ashamed to be associated"}
{"id": "905403716", "date": "2020-08-24", "guest": "Jean Guerrero", "title": "'Hatemonger' Paints Trump Advisor Stephen Miller As A 'Case Study In Radicalization'", "question_index": 26, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jean Guerrero, author of the new book \"Hatemonger: Stephen Miller, Donald Trump, And The White Nationalist Agenda.\" We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, Ruth, who died of the coronavirus - she's the one who recorded the family history with the idea that she wanted to be a bridge between the refugee generation and the generation of Stephe"}
{"id": "905403716", "date": "2020-08-24", "guest": "Jean Guerrero", "title": "'Hatemonger' Paints Trump Advisor Stephen Miller As A 'Case Study In Radicalization'", "question_index": 27, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jean Guerrero, author of the new book \"Hatemonger: Stephen Miller, Donald Trump, And The White Nationalist Agenda.\" She's covered the border, Mexico and Central America for years. She reported for The Wall Street Journal, for KPBS, the public TV and radio station in San Diego, and is now working freelance. So this is just a personality thing or a quirk. I don't know how to describe it. But you write about how Stephen Miller loves Vegas, loves gangster movies. A favorite of his is Martin Scorsese's film \"Casino.\" He's tried to, like, emulate Robert De Niro in \"Casino\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, Ruth, who died of the coronavirus - she's the one who recorded the family history with the idea that she wanted to be a bridge between the refugee generation and the generation of Stephe"}
{"id": "905403716", "date": "2020-08-24", "guest": "Jean Guerrero", "title": "'Hatemonger' Paints Trump Advisor Stephen Miller As A 'Case Study In Radicalization'", "question_index": 28, "text": "in terms of his dress and and hand gestures. What do you know about what that's about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, Ruth, who died of the coronavirus - she's the one who recorded the family history with the idea that she wanted to be a bridge between the refugee generation and the generation of Stephe"}
{"id": "905403716", "date": "2020-08-24", "guest": "Jean Guerrero", "title": "'Hatemonger' Paints Trump Advisor Stephen Miller As A 'Case Study In Radicalization'", "question_index": 29, "text": "Your previous book was a memoir. And it was about growing up with a Mexican father and Puerto Rican mother. And you lived in California?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He loves Las Vegas. He likes to celebrate his birthdays there. And his friends tell me that he would, you know, wear these very brightly colored suits to try to emulate Robert De Niro's mobster charac"}
{"id": "905403716", "date": "2020-08-24", "guest": "Jean Guerrero", "title": "'Hatemonger' Paints Trump Advisor Stephen Miller As A 'Case Study In Radicalization'", "question_index": 30, "text": "Was Spanish your first language?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "905403716", "date": "2020-08-24", "guest": "Jean Guerrero", "title": "'Hatemonger' Paints Trump Advisor Stephen Miller As A 'Case Study In Radicalization'", "question_index": 31, "text": "So when you - I think when you went to elementary school, there was this movement to prevent children from speaking Spanish in school. I mean, I think there was a movement to prevent Spanish speaking", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was, yeah."}
{"id": "905403716", "date": "2020-08-24", "guest": "Jean Guerrero", "title": "'Hatemonger' Paints Trump Advisor Stephen Miller As A 'Case Study In Radicalization'", "question_index": 32, "text": ". Correct me if I'm wrong on that. But what was it like for you to go to school with Spanish as your first language knowing that, like, it was supposed to be a bad thing to speak it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was, yeah."}
{"id": "905403716", "date": "2020-08-24", "guest": "Jean Guerrero", "title": "'Hatemonger' Paints Trump Advisor Stephen Miller As A 'Case Study In Radicalization'", "question_index": 33, "text": "Was it upsetting to your parents when you didn't want to speak Spanish anymore and you had kind of absorbed the idea that Spanish was bad and it was bad to speak in Spanish?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, I remember associating speaking Spanish with criminality. And I was kind of, you know, a goody-two-shoes as a kid. And I wanted to impress the teachers and get good grades and stuff. S"}
{"id": "905403716", "date": "2020-08-24", "guest": "Jean Guerrero", "title": "'Hatemonger' Paints Trump Advisor Stephen Miller As A 'Case Study In Radicalization'", "question_index": 34, "text": "Jean Guerrero, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was upsetting to my grandmother and to my grandparents in general. But my mom, you know, she's a physician from Puerto Rico. And she faced a lot of discrimination because of being perceived as othe"}
{"id": "905403716", "date": "2020-08-24", "guest": "Jean Guerrero", "title": "'Hatemonger' Paints Trump Advisor Stephen Miller As A 'Case Study In Radicalization'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Jean Guerrero is the author of the new book \"Hatemonger: Stephen Miller, Donald Trump, And The White Nationalist Agenda.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR we'll talk about Fox News and Donald Trump with Brian Stelter, author of the new book \"Hoax.\" Stelter is CNN's chief media correspondent. He says his book is about the Trumpification of Fox and the Foxification of America and the difference between news and propaganda. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much, Terry."}
{"id": "905403716", "date": "2020-08-24", "guest": "Jean Guerrero", "title": "'Hatemonger' Paints Trump Advisor Stephen Miller As A 'Case Study In Radicalization'", "question_index": 36, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley, Joel Wolfram and Kayla Lattimore. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Therese Madden directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much, Terry."}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Tomorrow marks the centennial of the birth of Charlie Parker, who was one of the originators of bebop in the 1940s. One of his musical peers was the late drummer Max Roach, who played on many of Parker's most important recordings beginning in the mid-'40s. Roach was one of the most influential drummers in the history of modern jazz, playing with Clifford Brown, Thelonious Monk, Sonny Rollins, Duke Ellington, Charles Mingus and Abbey Lincoln, to whom he was married for many years. That's just a partial list. He was awarded a MacArthur Genius Grant in 1988. Roach died in 2007. I spoke with him on FRESH AIR in 1987.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 1, "text": "I'd like to talk about your life a little bit. You got your start, I think, playing in Coney Island for - at sideshows. Is that right?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 2, "text": "What kind of music did you play?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's true. We used to do sometimes 12, 14 shows a day. And we'd have a barker outside. It was a barker who would say come on in. And the girls would go out and shake a little bit, and then public wo"}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 3, "text": "You were a teenager then.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we played everything from small group versions of Khachaturian pieces where we - where the fire-eaters would - the ladies would dance and put fire all over themselves. And the comedian would say"}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 4, "text": "Were you different than the other drummers who were playing in the same kinds of bands you were at the time? Did you know that you were doing something different?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Teenager - and that was it. You know, in order to master, I guess, your instrument, you have to do everything. I played with the local symphony orchestra. I played Coney Island sideshows and played wi"}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 5, "text": "How did you first meet some of the people who you became very close with and made now classic music together with? I'm thinking of Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie. Did they find you? Did you find them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I'm - only - I grew up in Brooklyn, N.Y. So it's right next door, of course, to Manhattan. I think we all did the same things. Some of the guys dropped out. Some people - they got married or went "}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 6, "text": "You were one of the first drummers to play bebop. And you were one of the first people to figure out how to drum in the kind of fiery sessions that were being played. What were some of the challenges that that presented to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Dizzy Gillespie heard me in a jam session in a place called Monroe's Uptown House. Clark Monroe was the brother-in-law of Billie Holiday's first husband, Jimmy Monroe. And he was like a - kind o"}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 7, "text": "What rhythms had you been playing before? And what rhythms did you shift into playing once you started playing bop because you really had to - you had to invent new rhythms. You had to invent new styles.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when they played fast, they played very fast. It was a period where instrumental virtuosity was - in our area - prevailed because during the war, you know, we had an extra - the Second World War"}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 8, "text": "Right. Well, to put it less simply, we'll hear some of what you were playing, then.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is from the mid-1940s, and this is my guest Max Roach as recorded with Miles Davis and Charlie Parker. And we're going to hear \"Ko-Ko.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 10, "text": "That was \"Ko-Ko.\" It was recorded in 1945 with my guest, Max Roach, on drums and Miles Davis on trumpet, Charlie Parker on alto saxophone. Does it bring back memories for you? Do you listen back to that much?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 11, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "but it was interesting. But Powell had no left hand. And it was, you know, we were criticized. But some of it was valid, I thought. You know..."}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 12, "text": "My interview with Max Roach was recorded in 1987. He died in 2007. After a short break, we'll continue our tribute to Charlie Parker with interviews from our archive featuring two other musicians who had a close association with Parker, trumpeter Red Rodney and saxophonist Jackie McLean. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...We had a long way to go, you know?"}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Tomorrow is the centennial of the birth of one of the greatest musicians in jazz history, saxophonist and composer Charlie Parker. We're celebrating by listening back to interviews in our archive with musicians who knew him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...We had a long way to go, you know?"}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 14, "text": "That was trumpeter Red Rodney. In 1949, after playing in the bands of Claude Thornhill, Gene Krupa and Woody Herman, Rodney ended up in the place that every young jazz musician wanted to be - Charlie Parker's band. Parker hired Rodney to replace Miles Davis. Rodney left the band a couple of years later, and his career floundered, in part due to a drug habit. He made a comeback in the '70s and played until his death in 1994. I spoke with Red Rodney in 1990.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Dizzy took me up to New York one Sunday, sat me in the middle of The Three Deuces to hear his band. And I heard Charlie Parker. It was like a religious experience. I was completely overwhelmed. I reme"}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 15, "text": "One of the celebrated stories in jazz lore is a story of how, during one of your tours through the South with Charlie Parker, he knew that an integrated band wouldn't go over well in the segregated South, that there were places you wouldn't be allowed to play. So he had the band advertised as Charlie Parker with Albino Red. So you were passed off as a Black albino. This is a true story, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Dizzy took me up to New York one Sunday, sat me in the middle of The Three Deuces to hear his band. And I heard Charlie Parker. It was like a religious experience. I was completely overwhelmed. I reme"}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 16, "text": "Is the story true that you ended up moving to a white hotel and Parker said, I'll come with you; you could call me your valet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it is. We didn't fool anybody. Everybody was very nice, and they had me singing blues like the kid in the movie did. I think I sang better than that, though."}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 17, "text": "So tell me the valet story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 18, "text": "Let me play something that you recorded with Parker. Let's hear Parker's composition \"Blues For Alice.\" And would you like to say anything about your memories of this recording session?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, after about a week or 10 days, we were in Atlanta, and I saw this big, beautiful hotel. And I said, you know, I'm going to go check in there. I'm going to take a bath. I'm sorry, but I'm doing i"}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that particular session, I was playing in the Jewish Alps, the Catskill Mountains."}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 20, "text": "So this is Charlie Parker with Red Rodney on trumpet, John Lewis at the piano, Ray Brown on bass, Kenny Clarke, drums.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And all of a sudden, I got a phone call while I'm in the swimming pool. And he said, you better get down here quickly; Norman Granz is doing a record date with us, and told me the studio. And I said, "}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 21, "text": "My guest Red Rodney on trumpet in that recording of \"Blues for Alice,\" recorded with Charlie Parker and Red Rodney. Well, Charlie Parker eventually hired you to replace Miles Davis. Did you feel prepared for that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And all of a sudden, I got a phone call while I'm in the swimming pool. And he said, you better get down here quickly; Norman Granz is doing a record date with us, and told me the studio. And I said, "}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 22, "text": "Did Parker take you under his wing in addition to taking you into his band?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not really, no. I told him, too. I told him I really wasn't ready for that. And he said, well, let me be the judge of that. He said, I know a good trumpet player when I hear one, and I think you are r"}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 23, "text": "Emulate him in which ways?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't know about that. We were very friendly even before that, and, of course, we became more friendly when I was working for him. I was thrilled that a man like that could like me. I don't th"}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 24, "text": "Did you start using heroin as a way to emulate him? Is that what it was about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in his drug use. He got very, very upset, and, of course, he didn't like it at all."}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 25, "text": "What did Parker do to try to discourage you - anything - discourage you from using?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I was very immature, and I kept looking and looking and saying, oh, my God. If I cross that line, could I possibly play like that? Curiosity killed the cat, you know? And pretty soon, you wind up"}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 26, "text": "My interview with trumpeter Red Rodney was recorded in 1990. He died in 1994. We'll continue our tribute to Charlie Parker with an interview from our archive with the late saxophonist Jackie McLean after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, many things. He threatened to fire me every day. He let me know in no uncertain terms how terrible a thing it was and how he couldn't handle it. What made me think that I could? Well, it turned "}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 27, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to our tribute to Charlie Parker. Tomorrow is the centennial of his birth. One of Parker's many disciples was alto saxophonist and composer Jackie McLean. McLean soon found his own voice as one of the leaders of hard bop. In the late '50s, McLean played with the band most associated with hard bop, Art Blakey and the Jazz Messengers. Mclean's mentors, along with Parker and Blakey, were Bud Powell, Thelonious Monk and Charles Mingus. Later, McLean became a mentor to many young players. In 1968, he founded the African American music department at the University of Hartford. Jackie McLean died in 2006. I had the opportunity to speak with him five years earlier in 2001.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, many things. He threatened to fire me every day. He let me know in no uncertain terms how terrible a thing it was and how he couldn't handle it. What made me think that I could? Well, it turned "}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 28, "text": "You got your first alto saxophone at the age of 15. How did you get it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, many things. He threatened to fire me every day. He let me know in no uncertain terms how terrible a thing it was and how he couldn't handle it. What made me think that I could? Well, it turned "}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 29, "text": "You said that you really preferred the sound of a tenor saxophone and you tried to make the alto sound like a tenor. How come you didn't get a tenor?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I got it on my 15th birthday, but I had been playing a year. My godfather, Norman Cobbs, played the saxophone, and he gave me a soprano saxophone for my 14th - when I was 14. And then my mom and my st"}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 30, "text": "Were there things that other guys your age were doing that you shut out of your life so that you'd have more time to practice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I didn't know that much about the instruments at that particular time. All I wanted was a saxophone. My mother went out and, I guess, bought the cheapest one. A tenor costs more than an alto, so"}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 31, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. My friends were running behind Zorro and Batman, Superman, all those people."}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 32, "text": "Bud Powell was one of your friends when you were still a teenager, and you learned a lot from him. How did you meet the pianist?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". They were my heroes."}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 33, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, his brother came to my dad's record shop. And I was playing a record with Bud playing the piano on one of Charlie Parker's recordings. And he just happened to be listening to it. And I happened "}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 34, "text": "So when this guy told you that he was Bud Powell's brother but that he didn't play, was that Richie Powell? 'Cause Richie Powell...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And from that moment on, Bud and I became friends. Of course, there was a great deal of difference in our ages. Bud is - I guess was about seven or eight years older than me. But he used to let me com"}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 35, "text": "...Did play.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it was Richie."}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 36, "text": "Why? Why was he opposed to it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he did. I'm the one that started him playing 'cause Bud didn't want him to play music. And he did everything he could to keep Richard from learning how to play. And..."}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 37, "text": "When Bud Powell walked into the room, did you recognize him and realize, OK, it really is Bud Powell? Or was it not until he started playing that you were sure?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have no idea. I think it was kind of to be protective of Richard 'cause during those days, it was a lot of things going on in clubs amongst musicians. And I guess it was kind of a protection. But at"}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 38, "text": "Were you embarrassed or apologetic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It wasn't until he started playing because I had never seen him in my life. He walked in and said, you don't believe that I'm Bud Powell? And that got - I couldn't answer. I just looked. And he steppe"}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 39, "text": "What kind of mental illness was he diagnosed with? Was it schizophrenia?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was flabbergasted. I was happy and all kind - I was all mixed up. I mean, it was an incredible moment for me in my life. You know? I mean, it - that time that I spent with Bud was - I guess I was ju"}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 40, "text": "Shock therapy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he got beat up in Philly. The police beat him up when he was with Cootie Williams' band. And they hit him in the head with a blackjack. And he was sick from that. And I don't know how his - what"}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 41, "text": "We're listening back to my 2001 interview with alto saxophonist Jackie McLean. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And when he came home - I didn't know him before he had this shock therapy. So when he would ask me - who is Sonny Stitt, or did I make a record with Charlie Parker? - I mean, it was because he "}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 42, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're celebrating the hundredth anniversary of Charlie Parker's birth, which is tomorrow. Let's get back to my 2001 interview with the late saxophonist Jackie McLean, a disciple of Parker's and also of the great pianist Bud Powell.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And when he came home - I didn't know him before he had this shock therapy. So when he would ask me - who is Sonny Stitt, or did I make a record with Charlie Parker? - I mean, it was because he "}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 43, "text": "Jackie McLean, what are some of the things you learned from Bud Powell? What was his approach to teaching you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And when he came home - I didn't know him before he had this shock therapy. So when he would ask me - who is Sonny Stitt, or did I make a record with Charlie Parker? - I mean, it was because he "}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 44, "text": "Your first record date when you were 19 was with Miles Davis. And I'm wondering how you got the date.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, in a way, he kind of spoiled me because I would ask him about chord progressions and things like that. And he would say, don't worry about that. Just use your ears. And he'd play chord"}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 45, "text": "What was the advice or instructions that Miles gave you for this session?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, you don't get a date, you earn it. Bud called me to the house one day and told me, he said, listen; Miles needs an alto player. I want you to go down and sit in with him in Birdland, t"}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 46, "text": "Do you want to choose a track from this session with Miles Davis, the \"Dig\" session, that you'd like to play?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one of the things that he told me, he said, you've got to learn something about the piano. You know nothing about the piano. You need to learn how to construct chords. And you learn - you've got"}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 47, "text": "Sounds good. Let's hear it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Maybe the title track, \"Dig.\""}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 48, "text": "That's \"Dig\" from the Miles Davis CD of the same name. It was the first recording session that my guest, Jackie McLean, was featured on back when McLean was 19 years old. Did this date change your life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Maybe the title track, \"Dig.\""}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 49, "text": "Did he say anything about what he thought of your playing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It certainly did. It frightened me to death because the day that I went into the studio to make the recording, Charlie Parker was there. He was sitting in the room with the engineers. And when I walke"}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 50, "text": "Was this the first time you met Parker?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. He always encouraged me to play and always told me he thought I played well. You know, a guy like Charlie Parker could destroy a young player by just saying, you don't sound good at all; you"}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 51, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Oh, my goodness. I used to run around behind him like a puppy dog."}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 52, "text": "Was he flattered? Did he mind?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We used to go downtown and wait to see him come out of the subway when he was going to work at The Three Deuces on 52nd Street. And we'd be standing out there from 8:30 at night waiting for him to sho"}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 53, "text": "What would happen if you didn't get home by 10:30?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He was - I think it knocked him out, especially when he asked me - asked my friend and I if we lived in that neighborhood. And we told him, no, we came down from Harlem to see him. So he said, y"}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 54, "text": "And would she actually have prevented you from getting out, or would you have, like, walked out the window?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my mom would be very upset with me, you know? She would be very angry with me and say, listen. When I tell you to be in at 10:30, I don't mean quarter to 11 or 11. I want you in here at 10:30, o"}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 55, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no. My mom was - I was an only child. I knew how to hug and kiss her and get her to let me go."}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 56, "text": "Now, there were times when Charlie Parker had to hock his saxophone in order to get money to buy heroin. And he would sometimes borrow your horn for days, and I think there were one or two times when he actually hocked your horn as well. How did you feel about giving it to him, knowing that that could happen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 57, "text": "What did he do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it wasn't quite that simple. Charlie and I used to rent horns from off of 48th Street and 46th Street. And when he had the horn, sometimes I needed to use it. He would loan it to me. And one tim"}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 58, "text": "Would you get angry with Parker for that or just kind of accept it as part of who he was?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think he went by the store and paid him the $300 or whatever it cost."}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 59, "text": "Now, how did knowing him and loving his playing as much as you did change your idea of what to do on alto saxophone?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I couldn't get angry with him for anything. I mean, he had - those problems that he had I didn't understand at that particular time. I never got really angry at him about anything."}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 60, "text": "My interview with alto saxophonist Jackie McLean was recorded in 2001, five years before his death. And that concludes our tribute to Charlie Parker. Tomorrow is the centennial of his birth. Parker died in 1955 at the age of 34.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's like somebody teaching you the next step and showing you the next direction to go in. And I think that's what he did for all of us - I mean, Sonny Rollins, John Coltrane, practically all of"}
{"id": "906689208", "date": "2020-08-28", "guest": "Max Roach", "title": "3 Jazz Greats Reflect On Charlie Parker's Enduring Influence", "question_index": 61, "text": "Monday on FRESH AIR, my guest will be Cherry Jones, who is nominated for an Emmy for her performance in the HBO series \"Succession.\" She's already won two Emmys for her performance in \"24\" as President Allison Taylor and in \"The Handmaid's Tale\" as Offred's mother. On \"Transparent,\" she played an iconic lesbian poet and professor. I hope you'll join us. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering support from Joyce Lieberman and Julian Herzfeld. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley, Kayla Lattimore and Joel Wolfram. We want to thank Joel for responding to our call a few months ago when we really needed him. He was key in keeping us on track while we all learned to work at home. He's edited many of my interviews during that time from his home. This wasn't the first time we've been grateful to him for responding to our SOS. It's always a pleasure to work with him. Thank you, Joel. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's like somebody teaching you the next step and showing you the next direction to go in. And I think that's what he did for all of us - I mean, Sonny Rollins, John Coltrane, practically all of"}
{"id": "906693558", "date": "2020-08-31", "guest": "Cherry Jones", "title": "Actor Cherry Jones On Her Journey From Theater To 'Succession' Media Mogul", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest Cherry Jones is nominated for an Emmy for her guest appearance on the HBO series \"Succession.\" She's already won two Emmys for her performance on \"24\" as President Allison Taylor and her performance on \"A Handmaid's Tale\" as Offred's mother. In the Amazon series \"Transparent,\" she played a celebrated lesbian poet and professor, and in Apple TV's recent series \"Defending Jacob,\" she played a defense attorney. For many years, she was best known as a theater actor. She got her first Tony Award for her performance in the 1995 Broadway revival of \"The Heiress\" and her second for her performance in the 2005 original production of \"Doubt.\" Jones appeared in \"The Glass Menagerie,\" \"Moon for the Misbegotten,\" \"Angels in America\" and many other plays. Her current Emmy nomination is one of 18 nominations for \"Succession.\" The series is about a rich family who owns and runs a global media empire. The head of the family, Logan Roy, is a ruthless tyrant who manipulates and emotionally abuses his four grown children as they each compete to win his favor and be named his successor. The family's media empire is being threatened by a hostile takeover, and to fight it off, Logan is trying to acquire a media rival called PGM. Cherry Jones plays Nan Pierce, who runs PGM, which is owned by her family. Her family and her media company contrast with Logan Roy's. She's from old money, very stately, and her media company is known for its progressive politics. The Roy family is more crude. They're all about power and money, and their flagship news operation is comparable to Fox News. In this scene, Nan Pierce has invited the Roy family to her estate to discuss the deal. She's accepted the price the Roy family is willing to pay for her company, but she has other terms she insists they agree to before she's willing to sell. Logan Roy is played by Brian Cox. Here's Cherry Jones as Nan Pierce.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "906693558", "date": "2020-08-31", "guest": "Cherry Jones", "title": "Actor Cherry Jones On Her Journey From Theater To 'Succession' Media Mogul", "question_index": 1, "text": "Cherry Jones, welcome to FRESH AIR. Welcome back to FRESH AIR. Congratulations on your Emmy nomination.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Logan Roy) Then we're done."}
{"id": "906693558", "date": "2020-08-31", "guest": "Cherry Jones", "title": "Actor Cherry Jones On Her Journey From Theater To 'Succession' Media Mogul", "question_index": 2, "text": "So, you know, I - you are so great. I love that you can so convincingly play, like, an old money, very entitled woman. So did you have people to draw on for your character in \"Succession\"? Were there people who are, like, old money, entitled, with an estate that you could draw on for, you know, the style of speaking and the body language? - because her body language conveys, like, I've always had privilege. I've never known anything but that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a pleasure to be back with you, Terry."}
{"id": "906693558", "date": "2020-08-31", "guest": "Cherry Jones", "title": "Actor Cherry Jones On Her Journey From Theater To 'Succession' Media Mogul", "question_index": 3, "text": "You have to play the contradiction in her life in that she runs a progressive, you know, media group, but in her own life, you know, she lives in an estate that's kind of a bubble. And she has a cook who's, you know, preparing this dinner for a whole lot of people where the Roy family and her family get together to discuss this takeover or merger. And so she says to the cook who's, like, serving hors d'oeuvres, like, you never take time out for yourself. You should have a drink with us. And of course, like, the woman who's overseeing all this big dinner can't do that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, it was interesting because I know that I played her maybe as a woman who no longer completely exists. Those gals are leaving us. But I wanted her to be that sort of last stand of that "}
{"id": "906693558", "date": "2020-08-31", "guest": "Cherry Jones", "title": "Actor Cherry Jones On Her Journey From Theater To 'Succession' Media Mogul", "question_index": 4, "text": "So one of the things I love about \"Succession\" is the dialogue is so good. It's so cutting. Everybody's always, like, cutting each other. And it's played as a drama, but there's something really funny about it because they're so over-the-top selfish and, like, money-hungry. It must be so much fun to read these lines.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know? It was - that was probably the most telling line for me as an actress about this character. For an actor, it's always so much more interesting to have a character who, on one hand, seems t"}
{"id": "906693558", "date": "2020-08-31", "guest": "Cherry Jones", "title": "Actor Cherry Jones On Her Journey From Theater To 'Succession' Media Mogul", "question_index": 5, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is - and, you know, to watch the show and think each one of these scripts is a masterpiece because they are so wretched, these people. And at the same time..."}
{"id": "906693558", "date": "2020-08-31", "guest": "Cherry Jones", "title": "Actor Cherry Jones On Her Journey From Theater To 'Succession' Media Mogul", "question_index": 6, "text": "So let's take a break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Cherry Jones. She's nominated for an Emmy for her performance in the HBO series \"Succession.\" We'll talk more after we take a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We so enjoy laughing at how ludicrous they are. And the writers just get that edge, that tightwire ropewalk just right. And at the same time, you see these grown children who have been created as mons"}
{"id": "906693558", "date": "2020-08-31", "guest": "Cherry Jones", "title": "Actor Cherry Jones On Her Journey From Theater To 'Succession' Media Mogul", "question_index": 7, "text": "Let's get back to my interview with Cherry Jones, who's nominated for an Emmy for her performance in the HBO series \"Succession.\" If she wins, it will be her third Emmy after winning for her performances in \"24\" as President Allison Taylor and in \"A Handmaid's Tale\" as Offred's mother. My understanding is that Frank Rich recommended you for the role. Now, Frank Rich used to be The New York Times theater critic and was, during those years, probably the most powerful theater critic in America. And you were performing mostly on stage back then. And he's since gone on to work on TV shows, including \"Veep\" and, of course, \"Succession.\" So when you first met him, were you still thinking of him as, like, the theater critic who could make or break a show?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We so enjoy laughing at how ludicrous they are. And the writers just get that edge, that tightwire ropewalk just right. And at the same time, you see these grown children who have been created as mons"}
{"id": "906693558", "date": "2020-08-31", "guest": "Cherry Jones", "title": "Actor Cherry Jones On Her Journey From Theater To 'Succession' Media Mogul", "question_index": 8, "text": "So what kind of reviews did he give you when you were in theater?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- his name."}
{"id": "906693558", "date": "2020-08-31", "guest": "Cherry Jones", "title": "Actor Cherry Jones On Her Journey From Theater To 'Succession' Media Mogul", "question_index": 9, "text": "Were you working on Broadway or off-Broadway at the peak of the AIDS epidemic? - because I imagine that a lot of people working on Broadway then had HIV and that many of them died and that that would have had quite an effect on you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, as I was coming up, he was very close to leaving the Times. And the one review that I remember best was for a marvelous Paula Vogel play called \"The Baltimore Waltz.\" And Frank Rich really g"}
{"id": "906693558", "date": "2020-08-31", "guest": "Cherry Jones", "title": "Actor Cherry Jones On Her Journey From Theater To 'Succession' Media Mogul", "question_index": 10, "text": "What impact did it have on you to lose so many friends at a young age?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I graduated from college in 1978, and then by '82, '83, I was working in Boston. And so I was not an established actor in New York, but the people I was losing were college friends who were starting t"}
{"id": "906693558", "date": "2020-08-31", "guest": "Cherry Jones", "title": "Actor Cherry Jones On Her Journey From Theater To 'Succession' Media Mogul", "question_index": 11, "text": "Has the pandemic - has COVID made you think a lot about the early days of the AIDS epidemic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was so infuriating because you felt that there could have been help so much earlier, and you knew that help was a long, long way away because it was gay men. And as a young gay woman, you know, it "}
{"id": "906693558", "date": "2020-08-31", "guest": "Cherry Jones", "title": "Actor Cherry Jones On Her Journey From Theater To 'Succession' Media Mogul", "question_index": 12, "text": "It must have been so frustrating for you to come from New York at the time when New York was the epicenter of the virus in the U.S. and then go down to a small town - Paris, Tenn., where you grew up - and no one's taking it seriously. It's like, you knew what could happen, but no one was taking it seriously.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. It actually hasn't. This feels so different because there's not a soul on earth that has any protection against this. It affects everyone, so there isn't the stigma that there was with AIDS. But t"}
{"id": "906693558", "date": "2020-08-31", "guest": "Cherry Jones", "title": "Actor Cherry Jones On Her Journey From Theater To 'Succession' Media Mogul", "question_index": 13, "text": "What did it mean to you to have a Confederate statue at the center of your town when you were growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like everywhere, until it hits your town, people just don't take it seriously. And honestly, I do understand that. But it's, you know - it's why we're in the state we're in. And fortunately, it does s"}
{"id": "906693558", "date": "2020-08-31", "guest": "Cherry Jones", "title": "Actor Cherry Jones On Her Journey From Theater To 'Succession' Media Mogul", "question_index": 14, "text": "Oh, gosh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when I was a child in the early '60s, you know, one was - I grew up proud of being a great-great-granddaughter of the Confederacy. I think I even - when I was a child, my daddy made a little flo"}
{"id": "906693558", "date": "2020-08-31", "guest": "Cherry Jones", "title": "Actor Cherry Jones On Her Journey From Theater To 'Succession' Media Mogul", "question_index": 15, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Cherry Jones. She's nominated for an Emmy for her performance as a guest star in the HBO series \"Succession.\" We'll talk more after we take a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I remember at that moment wanting to rip my white skin off because, you know, it's by generation. My grandmother, who would never have considered herself racist, felt that it was better that this "}
{"id": "906693558", "date": "2020-08-31", "guest": "Cherry Jones", "title": "Actor Cherry Jones On Her Journey From Theater To 'Succession' Media Mogul", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Cherry Jones. She's nominated for an Emmy for her performance in the HBO series \"Succession.\" She's already won two Emmys for her performance in 24 as President Allison Taylor and in \"A Handmaid's Tale\" (ph) as Offred's mother. In the series \"Transparent,\" she played a lesbian who is a well-known poet and professor. Cherry Jones has had a long theater career and has won two Tony Awards. So I want to talk with you about \"Transparent.\" You play Leslie Mackinaw, a famous poet and professor who has become a lesbian icon. And Gaby Hoffmann plays Ali Pfefferma, who is the daughter of a transgender woman named Maura who only recently came out as trans. So Ali is starting graduate school and has been taken under your wing because you're her professor. And you've both also recently attended a women's festival called Idyllwild. And Ali brought along her parent, Maura, unaware that trans women were not welcome at this women's festival. This is also where your character and Ali first sleep together. So this scene takes place a little later at your office. And Gaby Hoffmann as Ali speaks first.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I remember at that moment wanting to rip my white skin off because, you know, it's by generation. My grandmother, who would never have considered herself racist, felt that it was better that this "}
{"id": "906693558", "date": "2020-08-31", "guest": "Cherry Jones", "title": "Actor Cherry Jones On Her Journey From Theater To 'Succession' Media Mogul", "question_index": 17, "text": "So Cherry Jones, this character, I think, is supposed to be modeled on Eileen Myles, who is a poet and professor and who at this point in the life of Jill Soloway, the showrunner for \"Transparent,\" they were having a relationship at this point. So did you think of your character as being modeled on Eileen Myles? - who also has some scenes in \"Transparent,\" so I imagine you met her.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Leslie, laughter) Even grad students. So take your pick. You want to be my student? Or you want to be my old lady?"}
{"id": "906693558", "date": "2020-08-31", "guest": "Cherry Jones", "title": "Actor Cherry Jones On Her Journey From Theater To 'Succession' Media Mogul", "question_index": 18, "text": "So I want to hear what else you had to do to butch up", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I would have to - it was very funny to play because I haven't played a lot of - I've played a lot of single women and women who are not married. And so I haven't played a lot of love scenes in my l"}
{"id": "906693558", "date": "2020-08-31", "guest": "Cherry Jones", "title": "Actor Cherry Jones On Her Journey From Theater To 'Succession' Media Mogul", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I would have to - it was very funny to play because I haven't played a lot of - I've played a lot of single women and women who are not married. And so I haven't played a lot of love scenes in my l"}
{"id": "906693558", "date": "2020-08-31", "guest": "Cherry Jones", "title": "Actor Cherry Jones On Her Journey From Theater To 'Succession' Media Mogul", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yeah. I noticed the swagger. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "my masculinity, I guess. But I definitely had to develop an easy confidence swagger, that's for sure."}
{"id": "906693558", "date": "2020-08-31", "guest": "Cherry Jones", "title": "Actor Cherry Jones On Her Journey From Theater To 'Succession' Media Mogul", "question_index": 21, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Cherry Jones. She's nominated for an Emmy for her performance as a guest star in the HBO series \"Succession.\" We'll talk more after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Whereas women, you know, the older we get, the less appealing we feel. So I had to sort of, again, get in touch with that masculinity that allows one to be incredibly confident no matter what - sex"}
{"id": "906693558", "date": "2020-08-31", "guest": "Cherry Jones", "title": "Actor Cherry Jones On Her Journey From Theater To 'Succession' Media Mogul", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Cherry Jones, who's nominated for an Emmy for her performance in the HBO series \"Succession.\" If she wins, it will be her third Emmy after winning for her performances in \"24\" as President Allison Taylor and in a \"Handmaid's Tale\" as Offred's mother. \"24\" - there's a lot of torture in \"24.\" I mean, including a scene where your daughter is being threatened as you watch with having, you know, her eye cut out and then her other eye cut out and then her tongue come out, unless you step out of your safe room and present yourself to the captors. So how did you respond to being in a series where there's - where torture is so central to the series?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Whereas women, you know, the older we get, the less appealing we feel. So I had to sort of, again, get in touch with that masculinity that allows one to be incredibly confident no matter what - sex"}
{"id": "906693558", "date": "2020-08-31", "guest": "Cherry Jones", "title": "Actor Cherry Jones On Her Journey From Theater To 'Succession' Media Mogul", "question_index": 23, "text": "So I want to ask you about growing up gay in Tennessee, in Paris, Tenn., which is, you know, a small town. You were basically always out professionally, but you didn't tell your parents until you were 25. How did they handle that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I compromised myself. And I did it because my parents were both in steep declining health. And being in the theater, you get one day off a week. And, suddenly, out of nowhere - I'd been playing Sister"}
{"id": "906693558", "date": "2020-08-31", "guest": "Cherry Jones", "title": "Actor Cherry Jones On Her Journey From Theater To 'Succession' Media Mogul", "question_index": 24, "text": "And how did she take that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had always known because our parents had told Susan and me all of our lives that there was - that they would always love us unconditionally, that their love for us was unconditional. So I knew I was"}
{"id": "906693558", "date": "2020-08-31", "guest": "Cherry Jones", "title": "Actor Cherry Jones On Her Journey From Theater To 'Succession' Media Mogul", "question_index": 25, "text": "So this might be too personal. But I'm going to ask it, and you could tell me you don't want to answer it - OK? - 'cause I don't want to be intrusive.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that actually helped a lot. She started to realize that it was ludicrous to spend all this time grieving over such a relatively well-adjusted, happy child. And then she became the counselor for th"}
{"id": "906693558", "date": "2020-08-31", "guest": "Cherry Jones", "title": "Actor Cherry Jones On Her Journey From Theater To 'Succession' Media Mogul", "question_index": 26, "text": "I think a lot of actresses, a lot of journalists who are on television - a lot of everybody who's in film or television or stage or politics even, that a lot of women and men, too, feel pressure to have cosmetic surgery so that they look younger and so that the lines don't show because, you know, wrinkles are considered, like, very unflattering. And people want to get rid of them. Seeing you, I suspect you have not had cosmetic surgery. And if that's true, I want to say thank you. And it's not because I disapprove of cosmetic surgery. I just don't think it should be required. I don't think that people should feel like they have to do it or else they no longer have a career or they can no longer feel decent about themselves.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "906693558", "date": "2020-08-31", "guest": "Cherry Jones", "title": "Actor Cherry Jones On Her Journey From Theater To 'Succession' Media Mogul", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "cosmetic surgery. You know, I'm wrinkly like my father's mother. I like my face. I'll see my friends who've had Botox or whatever. And I think, oh, man, they look so young; they look so great. And I'm"}
{"id": "906693558", "date": "2020-08-31", "guest": "Cherry Jones", "title": "Actor Cherry Jones On Her Journey From Theater To 'Succession' Media Mogul", "question_index": 28, "text": "Cherry Jones, thank you so much for coming back to FRESH AIR. It's been great to talk with you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know? And you cannot apply cragginess to a good, lifted Botoxed face. You just - you cannot. Maybe one day they'll be able to do it in post as they CGI the wrinkles on. But I think I get a lot of "}
{"id": "906693558", "date": "2020-08-31", "guest": "Cherry Jones", "title": "Actor Cherry Jones On Her Journey From Theater To 'Succession' Media Mogul", "question_index": 29, "text": "Cherry Jones is nominated for an Emmy for her performance in the HBO series \"Succession.\" After we take a short break, our TV critic David Bianculli will tell us about a new documentary series on Turner Classic Movies about female filmmakers, featuring clips from throughout the history of cinema. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, I'll come back anytime you'll have me."}
{"id": "909171748", "date": "2020-09-03", "guest": "Reese Witherspoon", "title": "'She Wrote Her Own Rules': Kerry Washington's 'Little Fires' Role Reminds Her Of Mom", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today, we have interviews with two Emmy nominees. The winners will be announced at the Primetime Emmy Awards September 20. Our first interview is with Kerry Washington. She's nominated for four Emmys. Two are for \"Little Fires Everywhere\" for outstanding lead actress in a limited series or movie and for outstanding limited series. She produced the series with Reese Witherspoon, who also stars in it. It's adapted from the bestselling novel by Celeste Ng. Washington also starred in the hit ABC series \"Scandal\" as a political fixer who has her own crisis management firm and is having an affair with the president of the United States. Kerry also played Anita Hill in the HBO movie \"Confirmation\" and played a slave named Hildi in Quentin Tarantino's film \"Django Unchained.\" Along with Reese Witherspoon, Washington is a founding member of Time's Up, a movement of women working for gender equality and opposing sexual harassment. She also served on President Obama's council on the arts and humanities and worked on both of his campaigns. She hosted one night of the 2020 Democratic National Convention. We recorded our interview early last April. Let's start with a clip from \"Little Fires Everywhere,\" featuring Kerry Washington and Reese Witherspoon. To keep things straight about who's playing who, I'm going to use the actresses' names instead of the characters' names. So here we go. Reese Witherspoon is a part-time journalist who lives with her husband and their four children in a wealthy section of Shaker Heights, Cleveland. One day, she sees a stranger - Kerry Washington - asleep in a car with a teenage girl. Assuming that this is a homeless woman and her daughter, Witherspoon calls the police. Soon after, Washington responds to an ad for an apartment for rent. It turns out the woman renting it is Witherspoon. Feeling guilty about calling the police on Washington, Witherspoon rents the place to Washington and eventually offers her a job as her house manager. But when Witherspoon calls one of Washington's references, Washington's previous landlord, he says he's never heard of Washington. In this scene, it's evening and Witherspoon is at her home, and Washington is still working there. Reese Witherspoon plays Elena. Kerry Washington plays Mia.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "909171748", "date": "2020-09-03", "guest": "Reese Witherspoon", "title": "'She Wrote Her Own Rules': Kerry Washington's 'Little Fires' Role Reminds Her Of Mom", "question_index": 1, "text": "Kerry Washington, welcome to FRESH AIR. How are you? How is your family?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Mia) OK."}
{"id": "909171748", "date": "2020-09-03", "guest": "Reese Witherspoon", "title": "'She Wrote Her Own Rules': Kerry Washington's 'Little Fires' Role Reminds Her Of Mom", "question_index": 2, "text": "I'm at my kitchen table.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you for asking. It's a real honor to be chatting with you from my bedroom. But..."}
{"id": "909171748", "date": "2020-09-03", "guest": "Reese Witherspoon", "title": "'She Wrote Her Own Rules': Kerry Washington's 'Little Fires' Role Reminds Her Of Mom", "question_index": 3, "text": "Well, let me ask you about your new series, \"Little Fires Everywhere,\" on Hulu. You know, in the novel that it's adapted from, the race or ethnicity of your character isn't mentioned. So when you and Reese Witherspoon decided to produce and star in this, how did race change the story and the subtext of this story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But we're OK. We're all OK as of now. And teaching at home, homeschooling, it's just a new world. And I know how blessed I am to have a home and to be able to be at home safely with my family right no"}
{"id": "909171748", "date": "2020-09-03", "guest": "Reese Witherspoon", "title": "'She Wrote Her Own Rules': Kerry Washington's 'Little Fires' Role Reminds Her Of Mom", "question_index": 4, "text": "The story is set in the '90s. And Reese Witherspoon's character lives in a privileged bubble and prides herself on being colorblind, which she isn't really. But how has the idea of colorblind changed? Like, how does colorblind sound to you today?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It wasn't my idea to make me a Black. I didn't cast myself in the role. It was Reese Witherspoon's idea - and Lauren Neustadter, her producing partner. They had the idea to call me up and send me the "}
{"id": "909171748", "date": "2020-09-03", "guest": "Reese Witherspoon", "title": "'She Wrote Her Own Rules': Kerry Washington's 'Little Fires' Role Reminds Her Of Mom", "question_index": 5, "text": "Your character is very observant but reveals very little about herself. And I assume that's out of self-protection. When she doesn't trust somebody, she's very careful on how she talks with them. She's very careful to not reveal much. And language becomes inexpressive and more of a barrier than a way of really communicating. You've said that in some ways you drew on your mother for that because when people asked your mother where she was from, your mother could say New York City or the Bronx or the South Bronx", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Because it was, like, admirable that you could see beyond someone's race and to see them as just a human being. But when I hear it now, I think, you know, part of who I am as a human being is that I"}
{"id": "909171748", "date": "2020-09-03", "guest": "Reese Witherspoon", "title": "'She Wrote Her Own Rules': Kerry Washington's 'Little Fires' Role Reminds Her Of Mom", "question_index": 6, "text": "depending on who the person was and how your mother wanted to be perceived. Can you talk about that a little bit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Because it was, like, admirable that you could see beyond someone's race and to see them as just a human being. But when I hear it now, I think, you know, part of who I am as a human being is that I"}
{"id": "909171748", "date": "2020-09-03", "guest": "Reese Witherspoon", "title": "'She Wrote Her Own Rules': Kerry Washington's 'Little Fires' Role Reminds Her Of Mom", "question_index": 7, "text": "How did she talk to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. I think there's so much of my mom in Mia. There is so much of my mother in Mia. And at some point, in the preproduction process, actually, Reese and I, we were looking at some costume boards tha"}
{"id": "909171748", "date": "2020-09-03", "guest": "Reese Witherspoon", "title": "'She Wrote Her Own Rules': Kerry Washington's 'Little Fires' Role Reminds Her Of Mom", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my mom is an educator. So I think, again, like, you know, there were lots of teaching moments that she let me have. Or there were, like, tricks. I think I was much older than I should have been "}
{"id": "909171748", "date": "2020-09-03", "guest": "Reese Witherspoon", "title": "'She Wrote Her Own Rules': Kerry Washington's 'Little Fires' Role Reminds Her Of Mom", "question_index": 9, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Kerry Washington. She's nominated for two Emmys for producing and acting in the Hulu series \"Little Fires Everywhere.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like, she told us to cover our ears so that all hands would be accounted for. So, you know, there were ways that she was teaching and taking care of us that weren't always completely transparent. But "}
{"id": "909171748", "date": "2020-09-03", "guest": "Reese Witherspoon", "title": "'She Wrote Her Own Rules': Kerry Washington's 'Little Fires' Role Reminds Her Of Mom", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Kerry Washington. She stars with Reese Witherspoon in the Hulu series \"Little Fires Everywhere.\" Washington and Witherspoon also produced the series. It's nominated for an Emmy for outstanding limited series, and Washington is nominated for outstanding lead actress.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like, she told us to cover our ears so that all hands would be accounted for. So, you know, there were ways that she was teaching and taking care of us that weren't always completely transparent. But "}
{"id": "909171748", "date": "2020-09-03", "guest": "Reese Witherspoon", "title": "'She Wrote Her Own Rules': Kerry Washington's 'Little Fires' Role Reminds Her Of Mom", "question_index": 11, "text": "You said that at some point, you realized you were playing your mother in \"Little Fires Everywhere\" 'cause it's set in the '90s, when you were a teenager, the same age as the children in the story. And in the story, your teenage daughter - who resents you for moving all the time from one place to another - now she has to enroll in a new school again. And because it's a kind of upper-class school where she's - and she's the newcomer and she's African American, there's a lot of assumptions being made about her. You went to a private high school in New York that, you know, was a pretty elite school. Did you experience that kind of thing? Do you relate to what your character's daughter is going through in the series?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like, she told us to cover our ears so that all hands would be accounted for. So, you know, there were ways that she was teaching and taking care of us that weren't always completely transparent. But "}
{"id": "909171748", "date": "2020-09-03", "guest": "Reese Witherspoon", "title": "'She Wrote Her Own Rules': Kerry Washington's 'Little Fires' Role Reminds Her Of Mom", "question_index": 12, "text": "So you grew up in the Bronx, and you went to this private school in Manhattan. Compare what the neighborhoods were like or what the culture of the school was like compared to your neighborhood.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, there was so much that I related to in Lexi. You know, we were filming this scene - and this is both in filming and editing, we were having this conversation. When Lexi first walks into the Rich"}
{"id": "909171748", "date": "2020-09-03", "guest": "Reese Witherspoon", "title": "'She Wrote Her Own Rules': Kerry Washington's 'Little Fires' Role Reminds Her Of Mom", "question_index": 13, "text": "That's the school. That's the name of the school. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The neighborhood I grew up in in the Bronx was a working, middle-class neighborhood. But we were definitely like - we were perceived as a more well-off family because we had two cars. We had a dishwas"}
{"id": "909171748", "date": "2020-09-03", "guest": "Reese Witherspoon", "title": "'She Wrote Her Own Rules': Kerry Washington's 'Little Fires' Role Reminds Her Of Mom", "question_index": 14, "text": "So can you think of an example of code switching when you were living in the Bronx and going to high school on the Upper East Side in Manhattan in a private school?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, I went to Spence, which is a fancy school in the Upper East Side. It's where Gwyneth Paltrow went as well. And, suddenly, I was in math class with girls who had helipads on their Hampton's"}
{"id": "909171748", "date": "2020-09-03", "guest": "Reese Witherspoon", "title": "'She Wrote Her Own Rules': Kerry Washington's 'Little Fires' Role Reminds Her Of Mom", "question_index": 15, "text": "Yeah, yeah. I'm not surprised to hear that the tone would be different. I mean, I hear code switching all the time, and I think we all do it to one degree or another.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "and I get off the phone, you can immediately tell that I was talking to them because the - you know, I take on more of that sound and rhythm of just, you know, that girl from the Bronx, who's just - n"}
{"id": "909171748", "date": "2020-09-03", "guest": "Reese Witherspoon", "title": "'She Wrote Her Own Rules': Kerry Washington's 'Little Fires' Role Reminds Her Of Mom", "question_index": 16, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For sure."}
{"id": "909171748", "date": "2020-09-03", "guest": "Reese Witherspoon", "title": "'She Wrote Her Own Rules': Kerry Washington's 'Little Fires' Role Reminds Her Of Mom", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "..."}
{"id": "909171748", "date": "2020-09-03", "guest": "Reese Witherspoon", "title": "'She Wrote Her Own Rules': Kerry Washington's 'Little Fires' Role Reminds Her Of Mom", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...That we talk about a lot with friends because it's just so great is - you know, there's this thing in the Black community where you just say, at the end of a sentence, you know what I'm saying? And"}
{"id": "909171748", "date": "2020-09-03", "guest": "Reese Witherspoon", "title": "'She Wrote Her Own Rules': Kerry Washington's 'Little Fires' Role Reminds Her Of Mom", "question_index": 19, "text": "Did I sound very clueless when I said that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "909171748", "date": "2020-09-03", "guest": "Reese Witherspoon", "title": "'She Wrote Her Own Rules': Kerry Washington's 'Little Fires' Role Reminds Her Of Mom", "question_index": 20, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it was fantastic 'cause it was, like - no, it was very real. It was very real. I thought, we should say that to each other more often."}
{"id": "909171748", "date": "2020-09-03", "guest": "Reese Witherspoon", "title": "'She Wrote Her Own Rules': Kerry Washington's 'Little Fires' Role Reminds Her Of Mom", "question_index": 21, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded last April with Kerry Washington. She's nominated for four Emmys - two for her work on \"Little Fires Everywhere\" in the category of limited series or movie, one for acting and one for the series, on which she's an executive producer. We'll talk more after a break. And we'll hear from Ramy Youssef, who's nominated for two Emmys for his semi-autobiographical comedy series \"Ramy.\" Later, rock critic Ken Tucker will review three songs he finds simply beautiful. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "909171748", "date": "2020-09-03", "guest": "Reese Witherspoon", "title": "'She Wrote Her Own Rules': Kerry Washington's 'Little Fires' Role Reminds Her Of Mom", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded last April with Kerry Washington. She's nominated for four Emmys, two for the Hulu series \"Little Fires Everywhere.\" It also stars Reese Witherspoon, who produced the series with Kerry Washington. Washington also starred in the hit ABC series \"Scandal\" as a political fixer who has her own crisis management firm and is having an affair with the president of the United States.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "909171748", "date": "2020-09-03", "guest": "Reese Witherspoon", "title": "'She Wrote Her Own Rules': Kerry Washington's 'Little Fires' Role Reminds Her Of Mom", "question_index": 23, "text": "You and Reese Witherspoon are both founding members of Time's Up, which is the organization responding to the #MeToo movement working on gender equality, working against sexual harassment. And you played Anita Hill in the HBO movie \"Confirmation.\" You were probably a teenager during the Clarence Thomas hearings, so I don't know how closely you followed what was happening. But playing her, what were one or two of the things that you found just, like, most disturbing about how she was treated and how the hearings were handled?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "909171748", "date": "2020-09-03", "guest": "Reese Witherspoon", "title": "'She Wrote Her Own Rules': Kerry Washington's 'Little Fires' Role Reminds Her Of Mom", "question_index": 24, "text": "What did you learn about your parents hearing them disagree about Clarence Thomas and Anita Hill? And I'm assuming your father defended Clarence Thomas and that your mother was on Anita Hill's side.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I remember really distinctly when the hearings happened because it was one of the first times that I really saw my parents disagree on a social or political issue. Like, usually my parents were "}
{"id": "909171748", "date": "2020-09-03", "guest": "Reese Witherspoon", "title": "'She Wrote Her Own Rules': Kerry Washington's 'Little Fires' Role Reminds Her Of Mom", "question_index": 25, "text": "My impression watching Anita Hill during the hearings is that she was trying so hard not to show any emotion, to just kind of give the facts, answer the questions and remain as firm but as emotionally neutral as possible. Did you feel that way, too, and did you try to play her that way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think my dad - and I really - when I look back, I understand my Dad was devastated that this Black man who was going to, you know, sit on the highest court in the land was being raked through "}
{"id": "909171748", "date": "2020-09-03", "guest": "Reese Witherspoon", "title": "'She Wrote Her Own Rules': Kerry Washington's 'Little Fires' Role Reminds Her Of Mom", "question_index": 26, "text": "She had very good posture.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I could probably recite the hearings to you now. I watched them so much. And I tried to approach playing her with the influence of Anna Deavere Smith. Like, I really tried to watch the v"}
{"id": "909171748", "date": "2020-09-03", "guest": "Reese Witherspoon", "title": "'She Wrote Her Own Rules': Kerry Washington's 'Little Fires' Role Reminds Her Of Mom", "question_index": 27, "text": "Wait. Wait. Stop a second. I love the way you've turned her body, her posture into a metaphor.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She actually - she did have very good posture, but she also has a little - I won't call it a slump because she's far too graceful and elegant to call it a slump. But she protects her heart when she si"}
{"id": "909171748", "date": "2020-09-03", "guest": "Reese Witherspoon", "title": "'She Wrote Her Own Rules': Kerry Washington's 'Little Fires' Role Reminds Her Of Mom", "question_index": 28, "text": "Thank you so much for this interview, and I wish you and your family and everyone you care about good health during this crisis.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it is. I mean, you really - you know, you know you can study Alexander Technique, or you know how people move in the world says a lot about who they are. I used to go to rehearsal for \"Scandal\" "}
{"id": "909171748", "date": "2020-09-03", "guest": "Reese Witherspoon", "title": "'She Wrote Her Own Rules': Kerry Washington's 'Little Fires' Role Reminds Her Of Mom", "question_index": 29, "text": "My interview with Kerry Washington was recorded last April. She's nominated for four Emmys, two for the Hulu limited series \"Little Fires Everywhere.\" Coming up, comic, writer and actor Ramy Youssef. He's nominated for two Emmys for the second season of his semi-autobiographical comedy series \"Ramy.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Likewise. Likewise. Thank you."}
{"id": "909180380", "date": "2020-09-03", "guest": "Ramy Youssef", "title": "Comic Ramy Youssef On Being An 'Allah Carte' Muslim: 'You Sit In Contradictions'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. The Primetime Emmy Awards are September 20. Today and tomorrow, we're featuring interviews with some of the nominees. Next, we'll hear from Ramy Youssef. He's nominated for two Emmys for the second season of his semi-autobiographical Hulu comedy series \"Ramy\" for outstanding lead actor and for directing. Youssef is a stand-up comic who often surprises people when he tells them he believes in God - or as he puts it, God God, not yoga. His parents are immigrants from Egypt. His comedy is often about how he became an observant Muslim and how he also knowingly breaks some of the rules, like rules about dating and premarital sex. When the second season begins, Ramy is addicted to pornography and feeling guilty about it. In this scene, he goes to a Sufi mosque and confides in the sheikh, played by Mahershala Ali.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "909180380", "date": "2020-09-03", "guest": "Ramy Youssef", "title": "Comic Ramy Youssef On Being An 'Allah Carte' Muslim: 'You Sit In Contradictions'", "question_index": 1, "text": "I spoke with Ramy Youssef in 2019 after the first season of \"Ramy\" started streaming. That year, he also had an HBO comedy special called \"Feelings.\" Here's an excerpt in which he's talking about his father. It's going to take a surprising turn.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Ramy) I haven't considered her 'cause I don't consider anything. I just consider myself."}
{"id": "909180380", "date": "2020-09-03", "guest": "Ramy Youssef", "title": "Comic Ramy Youssef On Being An 'Allah Carte' Muslim: 'You Sit In Contradictions'", "question_index": 2, "text": "That's Ramy Youssef. Ramy Youssef, welcome to FRESH AIR. So I - that really surprised me, that little twist. Is your father still working at a Trump hotel in New York?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And the last couple of years, I'm watching TV, and I'm just like, Uncle Donald? Really?"}
{"id": "909180380", "date": "2020-09-03", "guest": "Ramy Youssef", "title": "Comic Ramy Youssef On Being An 'Allah Carte' Muslim: 'You Sit In Contradictions'", "question_index": 3, "text": "So how do you make sense of your father's success at a Donald Trump hotel in New York and Donald Trump's anti-Muslim rhetoric and actions? Because as you say, Trump builds his business off immigrants, people like your father.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, he's not. But yeah, that is a true story."}
{"id": "909180380", "date": "2020-09-03", "guest": "Ramy Youssef", "title": "Comic Ramy Youssef On Being An 'Allah Carte' Muslim: 'You Sit In Contradictions'", "question_index": 4, "text": "So how do you make sense of that? How do you reconcile that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "909180380", "date": "2020-09-03", "guest": "Ramy Youssef", "title": "Comic Ramy Youssef On Being An 'Allah Carte' Muslim: 'You Sit In Contradictions'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Is the picture of your father and Donald Trump still on the wall?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You don't make sense of it. I don't think that there's a lot that adds up with a lot of the things that are going on, and I think that's part of the absurdity of it. I mean, I don't really find Trump "}
{"id": "909180380", "date": "2020-09-03", "guest": "Ramy Youssef", "title": "Comic Ramy Youssef On Being An 'Allah Carte' Muslim: 'You Sit In Contradictions'", "question_index": 6, "text": "So your parents came here as immigrants from Egypt. When did they come?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He sometimes won't tell me things, either. He'll just be like, look - I'm not trying to be part of the stand-up routine, all right? So you just go about your day. And then we hug. And he tells me he l"}
{"id": "909180380", "date": "2020-09-03", "guest": "Ramy Youssef", "title": "Comic Ramy Youssef On Being An 'Allah Carte' Muslim: 'You Sit In Contradictions'", "question_index": 7, "text": "So your character in your series has been trying to figure out what kind of Muslim he is, and I imagine you have gone through that yourself about where you fit in and what you're going to observe and what you're not going to observe within the religion. And I think so many people, no matter what their religion, go through that. So can you talk a little bit about what your process has been like and how much - how difficult it is to feel like you're not completely all in. Do you know what I mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They came at different points in the '80s. They actually met in New York, which is kind of my favorite thing because they probably, you know, grew up very close to each other, maybe within 20 minutes "}
{"id": "909180380", "date": "2020-09-03", "guest": "Ramy Youssef", "title": "Comic Ramy Youssef On Being An 'Allah Carte' Muslim: 'You Sit In Contradictions'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Like, you're really - you are a practicing Muslim. You probably practice it slightly different than your parents do. And you're not completely all in. I mean, it's clear. Like, you have premarital sex, for example.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They came at different points in the '80s. They actually met in New York, which is kind of my favorite thing because they probably, you know, grew up very close to each other, maybe within 20 minutes "}
{"id": "909180380", "date": "2020-09-03", "guest": "Ramy Youssef", "title": "Comic Ramy Youssef On Being An 'Allah Carte' Muslim: 'You Sit In Contradictions'", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. We would call it the picking and choosing. Sometimes we would call it Allah carte..."}
{"id": "909180380", "date": "2020-09-03", "guest": "Ramy Youssef", "title": "Comic Ramy Youssef On Being An 'Allah Carte' Muslim: 'You Sit In Contradictions'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Why, at age 11, were you thinking about being your higher self and wanting to connect to your faith? It's not what most 11-year-olds are thinking about.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That would be the way I looked at things. But what I did know from a really early age was I wanted to connect with my higher self and kind of be, you know, the best spiritual version of myself. And I "}
{"id": "909180380", "date": "2020-09-03", "guest": "Ramy Youssef", "title": "Comic Ramy Youssef On Being An 'Allah Carte' Muslim: 'You Sit In Contradictions'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Has trying to work through questions that you have about your own faith, about how you practice it, about your place in the world - has trying to work through that onstage and in your series helped you understand yourself better?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "in the way that it was framed and kind of coming to understanding that it's not that at all. I mean, that was a big thing for me, and that was a big process for me to kind of work through. But I remem"}
{"id": "909180380", "date": "2020-09-03", "guest": "Ramy Youssef", "title": "Comic Ramy Youssef On Being An 'Allah Carte' Muslim: 'You Sit In Contradictions'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Ramy Youssef, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, absolutely. Just the choice of - in the series, we have 10 episodes. In the standup special, I have one hour. You're weeding things out, you know? You're deciding what you're going to talk about"}
{"id": "909180380", "date": "2020-09-03", "guest": "Ramy Youssef", "title": "Comic Ramy Youssef On Being An 'Allah Carte' Muslim: 'You Sit In Contradictions'", "question_index": 13, "text": "My interview with Ramy Youssef was recorded in June 2019. He's nominated for two Emmys for Season 2 of his comedy series \"Ramy,\" which is streaming on Hulu. Tomorrow, we'll hear from two people nominated in the category of best host of a reality show or competition series. Padma Lakshmi is a host of \"Top Chef.\" RuPaul is the host of \"RuPaul's Drag Race.\" After we take a short break, our rock critic Ken Tucker will recommend some songs he finds simply beautiful. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks. Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "909583983", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Padma Lakshmi", "title": "Padma Lakshmi, Model, Actor And TV Host, Says Above All, She's A Writer", "question_index": 0, "text": "Padma Lakshmi, welcome to FRESH AIR. And congratulations on your new series.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, editor of the website TV Worth Watching, sitting in for Terry Gross. We're devoting this show to revisiting interviews with some of this year's Emmy nominees. T"}
{"id": "909583983", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Padma Lakshmi", "title": "Padma Lakshmi, Model, Actor And TV Host, Says Above All, She's A Writer", "question_index": 1, "text": "How did you go from being a model and then an actress to food, to writing about food and hosting TV shows about food?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "909583983", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Padma Lakshmi", "title": "Padma Lakshmi, Model, Actor And TV Host, Says Above All, She's A Writer", "question_index": 2, "text": "So one of the episodes in your new series is devoted to Indian food and to your mother's cooking. What are some of the foods that you grew up with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I never intended to have a career in food. I didn't know anybody who did, so it never crossed my mind. I always loved to cook. You know, I was a theater major and an American lit major. And afterwards"}
{"id": "909583983", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Padma Lakshmi", "title": "Padma Lakshmi, Model, Actor And TV Host, Says Above All, She's A Writer", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I grew up eating dosas, which is featured in that episode, which is a rice and lentil crepe with fermented batter. You know, the south of India doesn't really use wheat. That is usually something that"}
{"id": "909583983", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Padma Lakshmi", "title": "Padma Lakshmi, Model, Actor And TV Host, Says Above All, She's A Writer", "question_index": 4, "text": "Let's talk about the beginning of your professional life. You started modeling in Europe. When you were an exchange student in Madrid, you were spotted by somebody who thought you'd make a great model, and that's how your career started. When you started modeling, I don't think there were many or maybe even any people of Indian descent modeling in European or American magazines. Were you considered, like, an outsider because of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So we grew up eating a lot of that. I grew up as a vegetarian. You know, we're Hindu Brahmins, and I didn't really eat meat until, I would say, I was a teenager."}
{"id": "909583983", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Padma Lakshmi", "title": "Padma Lakshmi, Model, Actor And TV Host, Says Above All, She's A Writer", "question_index": 5, "text": "You know, you mentioned Helmut Newton, and, you know, he was famous for his - what can I say? - very, like, sexualized poses, often very S&M. He wanted you to show your scar, I think, as opposed to covering it up. What's one of the more unusual poses that he wanted you to take or unusual clothing or lack of clothing", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I think that was part of my appeal. You know, I really didn't start to feel attractive until I went to Europe. I knew, you know, I had a pretty face or whatever all growing up, but I didn't fe"}
{"id": "909583983", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Padma Lakshmi", "title": "Padma Lakshmi, Model, Actor And TV Host, Says Above All, She's A Writer", "question_index": 6, "text": "that he wanted to shoot you in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I think that was part of my appeal. You know, I really didn't start to feel attractive until I went to Europe. I knew, you know, I had a pretty face or whatever all growing up, but I didn't fe"}
{"id": "909583983", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Padma Lakshmi", "title": "Padma Lakshmi, Model, Actor And TV Host, Says Above All, She's A Writer", "question_index": 7, "text": "Did you think it was odd that he actually wanted your scar to be accentuated in the photograph?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "in the agency because of that. But I just didn't feel good about it. And then he called back, you know, thankfully. And he said, well, OK, she doesn't have to be totally nude. What if she's just parti"}
{"id": "909583983", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Padma Lakshmi", "title": "Padma Lakshmi, Model, Actor And TV Host, Says Above All, She's A Writer", "question_index": 8, "text": "So let's talk more about your early background. Your mother came to the U.S. to escape a difficult marriage. You were 2. She left you behind with your grandparents until she could really get settled here and be confident that she could take care of you and support you. By the time she brought you over, you were 4. Do you remember being 2 years old when she went to America? Because I'm not sure I remember anything when I was 2.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview from July with Padma Lakshmi, the host and an executive producer of the Bravo cooking competition show, \"Top Chef.\" The show is nominated for fou"}
{"id": "909583983", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Padma Lakshmi", "title": "Padma Lakshmi, Model, Actor And TV Host, Says Above All, She's A Writer", "question_index": 9, "text": "So when you joined your mother in New York, was she living alone? Had she remarried or anything? What was your family life like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't remember the day she left, but I remember sitting at the gate of the compound where my grandparent's house was. You know, they lived in a building - in an apartment building, and it had a sort"}
{"id": "909583983", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Padma Lakshmi", "title": "Padma Lakshmi, Model, Actor And TV Host, Says Above All, She's A Writer", "question_index": 10, "text": "So when you were 7, at this point, you had a stepfather. And his brother, which was like your step uncle, touched you between your legs. And you told your mother. And then she sent you back to India. What was her reason for sending you away? And what was your interpretation as a child of why you were being sent away?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was living alone. She had a small apartment on the Upper East Side of New York City. And she showed me around the apartment. She showed me how to use bathroom tissue because in India, we use water"}
{"id": "909583983", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Padma Lakshmi", "title": "Padma Lakshmi, Model, Actor And TV Host, Says Above All, She's A Writer", "question_index": 11, "text": "Was one of the lessons that you took away from this that if something happens to you, you should keep it a secret?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think my mom just wanted to get me out of this situation quickly. You know, she was also studying for her master's degree at night. And she was a nurse in the daytime. I mean, that was her day job. "}
{"id": "909583983", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Padma Lakshmi", "title": "Padma Lakshmi, Model, Actor And TV Host, Says Above All, She's A Writer", "question_index": 12, "text": "So did you return to your home in America after your mother divorced?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think one of the lessons that I learned and internalized was that you shouldn't make waves. You know, you'll just make it worse. And I think a lot of women feel like that about this topic. I also th"}
{"id": "909583983", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Padma Lakshmi", "title": "Padma Lakshmi, Model, Actor And TV Host, Says Above All, She's A Writer", "question_index": 13, "text": "Your memoir from a few years ago ends with you thanking your grandparents for instilling in you the love of books and cooking. Tell us a little bit about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I did. In fact, when I returned, my mother had moved from Queens into Manhattan. She worked at Sloan Kettering, and at that time they had subsidized housing. So that's where we were."}
{"id": "909583983", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Padma Lakshmi", "title": "Padma Lakshmi, Model, Actor And TV Host, Says Above All, She's A Writer", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, I've enjoyed reading your writing. Padma Lakshmi, thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My grandmother is a very practical woman. She's not very affectionate. She's not, you know, very cuddly like most grandmas are. She grew up in a family with 17 siblings. And so she taught me how to be"}
{"id": "909586078", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Rupaul", "title": "RuPaul's Recipe For Success? Love Yourself And Stay Flexible", "question_index": 0, "text": "RuPaul, welcome to FRESH AIR. Thank you so much for being here. Your show is very entertaining, but it's also had a big impact on many people's lives. It's launched the career of dozens of drag queens, but it's also had a big impact on many viewers who feel affirmed by the show. Each episode ends with you saying - would you say it?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross. We're continuing our salute to some of this year's Emmy Award nominees by featuring group RuPaul, who is up for two Emmys as host and execut"}
{"id": "909586078", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Rupaul", "title": "RuPaul's Recipe For Success? Love Yourself And Stay Flexible", "question_index": 1, "text": "Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If you can't love yourself, how in the hell are you going to love somebody else?"}
{"id": "909586078", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Rupaul", "title": "RuPaul's Recipe For Success? Love Yourself And Stay Flexible", "question_index": 2, "text": "I remember that one.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a mantra. You need touchstones and totems. And, actually, it's a tradition my mother passed on to me, which is having sayings that can help realign you in this life, a life with advertising that "}
{"id": "909586078", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Rupaul", "title": "RuPaul's Recipe For Success? Love Yourself And Stay Flexible", "question_index": 3, "text": "Zest was a soap, in case - for people who don't know.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's absolutely ridiculous. But it plays..."}
{"id": "909586078", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Rupaul", "title": "RuPaul's Recipe For Success? Love Yourself And Stay Flexible", "question_index": 4, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "909586078", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Rupaul", "title": "RuPaul's Recipe For Success? Love Yourself And Stay Flexible", "question_index": 5, "text": "I'd love to hear some more of the sayings that your mother passed on to you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But it plays on the insecurities that every human has, which is - are they going to like me? Do I smell? Do they not like me because I smell? So these mantras are set to align you with the truth of wh"}
{"id": "909586078", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Rupaul", "title": "RuPaul's Recipe For Success? Love Yourself And Stay Flexible", "question_index": 6, "text": "Did she live by that saying?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Mama had a lot of them. And one of hers was, I don't lend, I don't borrow, and I don't visit."}
{"id": "909586078", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Rupaul", "title": "RuPaul's Recipe For Success? Love Yourself And Stay Flexible", "question_index": 7, "text": "So I want to talk to you a little bit about being a businessman. Like, you've been very successful as a businessperson in addition to being successful as a performer. And in your early days performing, you had to promote yourself. How did you do it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She absolutely did. She was not a social person. She was - she stayed to herself. You know, when her sisters would come to visit, she'd say, listen - y'all can come, but bring your own milk and sugar;"}
{"id": "909586078", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Rupaul", "title": "RuPaul's Recipe For Success? Love Yourself And Stay Flexible", "question_index": 8, "text": "Oh, really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "By any means necessary. I would make posters, and we'd post them around Atlanta. And then I would go out and promote myself in clubs and on public access television in Atlanta."}
{"id": "909586078", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Rupaul", "title": "RuPaul's Recipe For Success? Love Yourself And Stay Flexible", "question_index": 9, "text": "What did you do your first time on that show?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I got my start in television 38 years ago on a show in Atlanta called \"The American Music Show.\" I saw it once, wrote into them and said, I love your show. I want to be on it. It was so irrevere"}
{"id": "909586078", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Rupaul", "title": "RuPaul's Recipe For Success? Love Yourself And Stay Flexible", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "On that show, I had these friends of mine, these two girls - we called ourselves RuPaul and the U-Hauls."}
{"id": "909586078", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Rupaul", "title": "RuPaul's Recipe For Success? Love Yourself And Stay Flexible", "question_index": 11, "text": "Shoot them before they run.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And we came up with a dance routine to Junior Walker & the All Stars' song, hit song, \"Shotgun.\" And that was the first appearance."}
{"id": "909586078", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Rupaul", "title": "RuPaul's Recipe For Success? Love Yourself And Stay Flexible", "question_index": 12, "text": "What were you wearing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes."}
{"id": "909586078", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Rupaul", "title": "RuPaul's Recipe For Success? Love Yourself And Stay Flexible", "question_index": 13, "text": "So what were those posters, those handmade posters, like that you pasted all over town?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". My mother taught me how to sew, and I, you know, sewed up some outfits for us. It's probably, this - that appearance is probably on YouTube right now. You know, I won't watch it because it's still t"}
{"id": "909586078", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Rupaul", "title": "RuPaul's Recipe For Success? Love Yourself And Stay Flexible", "question_index": 14, "text": "What did you think your future was going to be?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I've always loved advertising, and I love a good advertising campaign. So I would put together these campaigns. And one campaign was RuPaul is red hot. Ru Paul is everything. One campaign wa"}
{"id": "909586078", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Rupaul", "title": "RuPaul's Recipe For Success? Love Yourself And Stay Flexible", "question_index": 15, "text": "So you said, drag presented itself to me. How did drag present itself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I - my - I thought my future would be - I'd be a star. I'd be a famous star. I didn't know how I would do that. In my mind, I thought, well, we'll start with - I'll be the next David Bowie, and that's"}
{"id": "909586078", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Rupaul", "title": "RuPaul's Recipe For Success? Love Yourself And Stay Flexible", "question_index": 16, "text": "So when you started performing in Atlanta, were you in, like, music clubs or drag clubs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was in rock 'n' roll bands and punk rock bands and all that stuff. And we, as a ruse, just did drag for a performance, and the reaction I got from people was like none other. And I thought, oh"}
{"id": "909586078", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Rupaul", "title": "RuPaul's Recipe For Success? Love Yourself And Stay Flexible", "question_index": 17, "text": "So what was the transition from, you know, a kind of punk rock version of drag to the more glam version?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, we - it was always punk rock clubs and music clubs. Drag clubs - you know, I never really worked in drag clubs because we were punk rock. We were anti-establishment. Atlanta - back then and it may"}
{"id": "909586078", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Rupaul", "title": "RuPaul's Recipe For Success? Love Yourself And Stay Flexible", "question_index": 18, "text": "Is that how you got into the \"Love Shack\" video?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. That was the transition. And so went from that - moved to New York. And the way to make money was go-go dancing to host different club nights. So I decided, you know what? I'm going to shave my l"}
{"id": "909586078", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Rupaul", "title": "RuPaul's Recipe For Success? Love Yourself And Stay Flexible", "question_index": 19, "text": "So correct me if I'm wrong, but I think your mother worked for Planned Parenthood,", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "the night before. And of course, the video, it took all day to film that video. And so by the end of the day, I'd been up for, of course, 24 hours, which was not unusual for me."}
{"id": "909586078", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Rupaul", "title": "RuPaul's Recipe For Success? Love Yourself And Stay Flexible", "question_index": 20, "text": "Was she a counselor?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, she did. And after the divorce in '67, she sort of sat out in her room for about two years. And then - and my two older sisters sort of took over running the house. And then in 1970, she got a jo"}
{"id": "909586078", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Rupaul", "title": "RuPaul's Recipe For Success? Love Yourself And Stay Flexible", "question_index": 21, "text": "Was she, like, very enlightened about sexuality and gender?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think she started answering the phones, and then she did move on to counselling. And she was very proud of that job."}
{"id": "909586078", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Rupaul", "title": "RuPaul's Recipe For Success? Love Yourself And Stay Flexible", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I will laugh at it and say, you know, the joke is on you, mama or child - not my mother. But the joke is on you, person, because I am going to get as much out of this life as I possibly can. And I h"}
{"id": "909586078", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Rupaul", "title": "RuPaul's Recipe For Success? Love Yourself And Stay Flexible", "question_index": 23, "text": "So I want to get back to when you went to New York and you started, like, changing your drag to more of a glam thing. What was the scene you were part of then?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview from March with RuPaul. He's been nominated for two Emmy Awards this year - one for host and one as executive producer for his VH1 series \"RuPaul"}
{"id": "909586078", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Rupaul", "title": "RuPaul's Recipe For Success? Love Yourself And Stay Flexible", "question_index": 24, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not that Village People."}
{"id": "909586078", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Rupaul", "title": "RuPaul's Recipe For Success? Love Yourself And Stay Flexible", "question_index": 25, "text": "So when you started to do a more kind of glam drag, how did you find your look?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But, you know, the kids down below 14th Street. There was a huge scene down there. It was different than it is today. But it was - we were the children of Warhol. We were the children of David Bowie. "}
{"id": "909586078", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Rupaul", "title": "RuPaul's Recipe For Success? Love Yourself And Stay Flexible", "question_index": 26, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I knew that commercially, if I wanted to make it mainstream, I would have to be nonthreatening to Betty and Joe Beercan (ph). And what I did was I came up with a recipe, which was one part Cher, two p"}
{"id": "909586078", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Rupaul", "title": "RuPaul's Recipe For Success? Love Yourself And Stay Flexible", "question_index": 27, "text": "So what was the part that you think Joe and Betty Beercan would have found threatening?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know, Diana Ross and two heaping spoonfuls of Dolly Parton. And I took the - what would be perceived by Betty and Joe Beercan as subversive sexuality, I took that out of the equation, and peopl"}
{"id": "909586078", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Rupaul", "title": "RuPaul's Recipe For Success? Love Yourself And Stay Flexible", "question_index": 28, "text": "Yeah, I was going to say it's almost like mocking women.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the - they think of drag as a subversive sexuality. And we all know that Americans especially are afraid of sex. We Americans are afraid of sex and sexuality. So that was the part. And that was "}
{"id": "909586078", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Rupaul", "title": "RuPaul's Recipe For Success? Love Yourself And Stay Flexible", "question_index": 29, "text": "Yeah. Milton Berle, also, in earlier days.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yeah."}
{"id": "909586078", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Rupaul", "title": "RuPaul's Recipe For Success? Love Yourself And Stay Flexible", "question_index": 30, "text": "So, you know, you mentioned your recipe for creating your glam drag image. And you mentioned Dolly Parton, and you mentioned Cher. I mean, there's certain kind of, like, classics for people who do drag. And that includes, you know, Cher and Liza and Barbra Streisand, Diana Ross, Judy Garland, of course. Like, what do you think it is about them that have made them some of, like, the classics that people in drag have modeled themselves over?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So that's how the look came about."}
{"id": "909586078", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Rupaul", "title": "RuPaul's Recipe For Success? Love Yourself And Stay Flexible", "question_index": 31, "text": "Oh, yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is that they embody both strength and vulnerability. By the way, dear listener, vulnerability is strength. And that balance is what life is all about. It's not one or the other. And all of these wo"}
{"id": "909586078", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Rupaul", "title": "RuPaul's Recipe For Success? Love Yourself And Stay Flexible", "question_index": 32, "text": "So let's talk about your life today. You and your husband have - what? - 60 acres in Wyoming and South Dakota and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Exemplify that vulnerability and strength, that duality."}
{"id": "909586078", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Rupaul", "title": "RuPaul's Recipe For Success? Love Yourself And Stay Flexible", "question_index": 33, "text": "No?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no, no, no."}
{"id": "909586078", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Rupaul", "title": "RuPaul's Recipe For Success? Love Yourself And Stay Flexible", "question_index": 34, "text": "Oh, 60,000 acres.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no - 60,000 acres."}
{"id": "909586078", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Rupaul", "title": "RuPaul's Recipe For Success? Love Yourself And Stay Flexible", "question_index": 35, "text": "That's like a national park.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sixty thousand acres."}
{"id": "909586078", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Rupaul", "title": "RuPaul's Recipe For Success? Love Yourself And Stay Flexible", "question_index": 36, "text": "What are you doing with them? I mean -", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, it's a lot."}
{"id": "909586078", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Rupaul", "title": "RuPaul's Recipe For Success? Love Yourself And Stay Flexible", "question_index": 37, "text": "came out a little weird. But I mean, do you have, like, horses or cattle or a farm or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, it's a lot."}
{"id": "909586078", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Rupaul", "title": "RuPaul's Recipe For Success? Love Yourself And Stay Flexible", "question_index": 38, "text": "So what's it like for you to live on a ranch? I mean you're so, like, New York, Atlanta...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the - a modern ranch - a 21st-century ranch is really land management. It is - you lease the mineral rights to oil companies, and you sell water to oil companies. And then you lease the grazing "}
{"id": "909586078", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Rupaul", "title": "RuPaul's Recipe For Success? Love Yourself And Stay Flexible", "question_index": 39, "text": "...And LA.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm - I am..."}
{"id": "909586078", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Rupaul", "title": "RuPaul's Recipe For Success? Love Yourself And Stay Flexible", "question_index": 40, "text": "What's it like for you to be on 60,000 acres and away from an urban center?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm adaptable. This is the secret of my success is that I can adapt to whatever. And that is the strongest power that each of us holds is our ability to adapt. And you know - and being youthful is abo"}
{"id": "909586078", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Rupaul", "title": "RuPaul's Recipe For Success? Love Yourself And Stay Flexible", "question_index": 41, "text": "When you pray, are you praying to a god?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have no problem with that. I am very - like, I'm not a phone person. Like, I don't sit and look at my phone or drive and look at my phone or walk down the street and look at my phone. I like to be a"}
{"id": "909586078", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Rupaul", "title": "RuPaul's Recipe For Success? Love Yourself And Stay Flexible", "question_index": 42, "text": "OK", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm praying to a higher power. But you know, if you think of our brains as an operating system like, say, OS - I don't know what we're on now. Let's say OS 25. Even that operating system can't underst"}
{"id": "909586078", "date": "2020-09-04", "guest": "Rupaul", "title": "RuPaul's Recipe For Success? Love Yourself And Stay Flexible", "question_index": 43, "text": ". RuPaul, it has just been great to talk with you. Thank you so much for coming on our show. It's been just such a pleasure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm praying to a higher power. But you know, if you think of our brains as an operating system like, say, OS - I don't know what we're on now. Let's say OS 25. Even that operating system can't underst"}
{"id": "909596392", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Self Made", "title": "'I Always, Always Fight': Octavia Spencer On Demanding More From Hollywood", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. The Emmy Awards are coming up Sunday, September 20. Octavia Spencer is nominated in the category outstanding lead actress in a limited series or movie for her performance in the Netflix series \"Self Made: Inspired By The Life Of Madam C.J. Walker.\" She won an Oscar for her first big film role in \"The Help,\" playing a maid in Mississippi in 1963. She was nominated for an Oscar for her role in \"Hidden Figures,\" as the head of a unit of African American female mathematicians doing calculations for NASA to help launch the first Americans into orbit. She also received an Oscar nomination for her performance in \"The Shape Of Water,\" a film which won an Oscar for best picture. We're going to hear the interview I recorded with her in March, when \"Self Made\" started streaming. \"Self Made\" is inspired by the life of Madam C.J. Walker, who was born in 1867 on a plantation in Louisiana to parents who had been slaves. After first eking out a living washing clothes for other families, she became a successful businesswoman selling hair products for Black women, eventually becoming the first self-made female millionaire in America. In the first episode, when she's still working as a laundress, she's feeling ugly because her hair is falling out. Her husband has told her she looks like a mangy dog. She tries a hair product that claims to restore lost hair, and it works. Soon, she starts selling her own version of the product to poor working Black women like her. In this scene, she's at an open market trying to sell her product to a crowd of women.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "909596392", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Self Made", "title": "'I Always, Always Fight': Octavia Spencer On Demanding More From Hollywood", "question_index": 1, "text": "Octavia Spencer, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Sarah Breedlove) You hear me? Did you hear me?"}
{"id": "909596392", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Self Made", "title": "'I Always, Always Fight': Octavia Spencer On Demanding More From Hollywood", "question_index": 2, "text": "Can you talk a little bit about Madam C.J. Walker's importance in American history?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having me."}
{"id": "909596392", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Self Made", "title": "'I Always, Always Fight': Octavia Spencer On Demanding More From Hollywood", "question_index": 3, "text": "Did your mother use Madam C.J. Walker's hair products?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can. I can tell you that Madam C.J. was a standard-bearer in our household that my mother used to inspire my siblings and myself to strive to be the best that we could be. And so I've always known h"}
{"id": "909596392", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Self Made", "title": "'I Always, Always Fight': Octavia Spencer On Demanding More From Hollywood", "question_index": 4, "text": "So if - she not only did hair growth products; she did other hair products. I think she made hair straighteners and cosmetics for African American women.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I don't even know if they were still around then. She - basically, we had nothing. And Madam C.J. was born, you know, humbly as well. And she was a woman of purpose, and that's what my mother used"}
{"id": "909596392", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Self Made", "title": "'I Always, Always Fight': Octavia Spencer On Demanding More From Hollywood", "question_index": 5, "text": "And so, like, when you got to Hollywood, did you feel like that was still an issue - having good hair products for Black women, getting good makeup on sets, getting good lighting from - in the movies if you have dark skin?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "909596392", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Self Made", "title": "'I Always, Always Fight': Octavia Spencer On Demanding More From Hollywood", "question_index": 6, "text": "Madam C.J. Walker, as we heard, describes her as having had a Cain versus Abel relationship with her hair.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. I remember one of the first jobs I had, I - you go to set and expect to be made up. And there was no makeup for me. And from then on, I always carried my own makeup. But - I don't have to "}
{"id": "909596392", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Self Made", "title": "'I Always, Always Fight': Octavia Spencer On Demanding More From Hollywood", "question_index": 7, "text": "Did you ever, like, struggle with your hair? And did that affect your feelings about your chances of becoming an actress?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. I remember one of the first jobs I had, I - you go to set and expect to be made up. And there was no makeup for me. And from then on, I always carried my own makeup. But - I don't have to "}
{"id": "909596392", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Self Made", "title": "'I Always, Always Fight': Octavia Spencer On Demanding More From Hollywood", "question_index": 8, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. My mother - I grew up in a household with - there's six girls and one boy. So my mom - I used to love to watch her wash and style my sisters' hair. And so she taught me how to do that. I didn't ha"}
{"id": "909596392", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Self Made", "title": "'I Always, Always Fight': Octavia Spencer On Demanding More From Hollywood", "question_index": 9, "text": "So I want to ask you about the clothes that you wear in \"Self Made.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I didn't back then."}
{"id": "909596392", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Self Made", "title": "'I Always, Always Fight': Octavia Spencer On Demanding More From Hollywood", "question_index": 10, "text": "It's set in the early 1900s, and you start off as, you know, a washerwoman who launders the clothes of white people. And you're wearing those kind of, like, floral pattern house dresses, I think they were called. You know? Tell me what it's like to dress as you dressed in those clothes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm hmm."}
{"id": "909596392", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Self Made", "title": "'I Always, Always Fight': Octavia Spencer On Demanding More From Hollywood", "question_index": 11, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded last March with Octavia Spencer. She's nominated for a best actress Emmy for her performance in the Netflix limited series \"Self Made: Inspired By The Life Of Madam C.J. Walker.\" We'll hear more of the interview after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a lot of clothes."}
{"id": "909596392", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Self Made", "title": "'I Always, Always Fight': Octavia Spencer On Demanding More From Hollywood", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Octavia Spencer. She's nominated for a best actress Emmy for her starring role in the Netflix limited series \"Self Made: Inspired By The Life Of Madam C.J. Walker.\" She won an Oscar for her performance in \"The Help\" and received Oscar nominations for her performances in \"Hidden Figures\" and \"The Shape Of Water.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a lot of clothes."}
{"id": "909596392", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Self Made", "title": "'I Always, Always Fight': Octavia Spencer On Demanding More From Hollywood", "question_index": 13, "text": "You grew up in Montgomery, Ala.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a lot of clothes."}
{"id": "909596392", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Self Made", "title": "'I Always, Always Fight': Octavia Spencer On Demanding More From Hollywood", "question_index": 14, "text": "And - can I ask what year you were born?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm hmm."}
{"id": "909596392", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Self Made", "title": "'I Always, Always Fight': Octavia Spencer On Demanding More From Hollywood", "question_index": 15, "text": "OK", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "909596392", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Self Made", "title": "'I Always, Always Fight': Octavia Spencer On Demanding More From Hollywood", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "909596392", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Self Made", "title": "'I Always, Always Fight': Octavia Spencer On Demanding More From Hollywood", "question_index": 17, "text": "-Ish (ph) or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'll say 1975."}
{"id": "909596392", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Self Made", "title": "'I Always, Always Fight': Octavia Spencer On Demanding More From Hollywood", "question_index": 18, "text": "OK, -ish.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We'll say around in that time."}
{"id": "909596392", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Self Made", "title": "'I Always, Always Fight': Octavia Spencer On Demanding More From Hollywood", "question_index": 19, "text": "OK. So what were the schools like when you were going to school? And were there books that you read in your formative years that were very influential for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We'll say around in that time."}
{"id": "909596392", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Self Made", "title": "'I Always, Always Fight': Octavia Spencer On Demanding More From Hollywood", "question_index": 20, "text": "That's such a great story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I actually was dyslexic - or am dyslexic. And I had just a love-hate relationship with reading. And it was my first-grade teacher who - actually, second-grade teacher who really changed my readi"}
{"id": "909596392", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Self Made", "title": "'I Always, Always Fight': Octavia Spencer On Demanding More From Hollywood", "question_index": 21, "text": "You know, I've spoken to several actors who have dyslexia. And I always wonder, like, how do you manage to memorize your lines when you have dyslexia?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I actually was dyslexic - or am dyslexic. And I had just a love-hate relationship with reading. And it was my first-grade teacher who - actually, second-grade teacher who really changed my readi"}
{"id": "909596392", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Self Made", "title": "'I Always, Always Fight': Octavia Spencer On Demanding More From Hollywood", "question_index": 22, "text": "With the script in front of you so that you could read them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm auditorily inclined. And so I record all of the other characters in the scene. Yeah, I record all of their lines and leave space for mine. And that's what I do all day, walk around. I walk a"}
{"id": "909596392", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Self Made", "title": "'I Always, Always Fight': Octavia Spencer On Demanding More From Hollywood", "question_index": 23, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. If I go up on a line, yes..."}
{"id": "909596392", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Self Made", "title": "'I Always, Always Fight': Octavia Spencer On Demanding More From Hollywood", "question_index": 24, "text": "Got it. So you're walking around with a script in your hand...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I always refer back to the script. Yes."}
{"id": "909596392", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Self Made", "title": "'I Always, Always Fight': Octavia Spencer On Demanding More From Hollywood", "question_index": 25, "text": "...Ready to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm hmm."}
{"id": "909596392", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Self Made", "title": "'I Always, Always Fight': Octavia Spencer On Demanding More From Hollywood", "question_index": 26, "text": "...Fill in the blanks and correct yourself, if necessary.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "909596392", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Self Made", "title": "'I Always, Always Fight': Octavia Spencer On Demanding More From Hollywood", "question_index": 27, "text": "One of the issues that you've fought for in Hollywood is equal pay for women and equal pay for Black women. When did you realize that you weren't getting the same amount that white women doing the equivalent work were getting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It's my routine."}
{"id": "909596392", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Self Made", "title": "'I Always, Always Fight': Octavia Spencer On Demanding More From Hollywood", "question_index": 28, "text": "Octavia Spencer, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for coming on our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", here's the change. And that's usually - by the time they get to you, you know that there's very little money. And I just knew that I wasn't going to take that, you know, much longer, especially with"}
{"id": "909596392", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Self Made", "title": "'I Always, Always Fight': Octavia Spencer On Demanding More From Hollywood", "question_index": 29, "text": "Oh, thank you so much. My interview with Octavia Spencer was recorded in March. She's nominated for a best actress Emmy for her performance in the Netflix limited series \"Self Made: Inspired By The Life Of Madam C.J. Walker.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guests will be former FBI Special Agent Ali Soufan, who investigated international terrorism cases, including the 9/11 attacks. He opposed the CIA's use of waterboarding and other forms of torture on high-level al-Qaida detainees. The CIA redacted his 2011 memoir, \"The Black Banners,\" but now it's being published in an unredacted edition. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I - this was so fun for me. I'm such a fan. Thank you for having me."}
{"id": "909596392", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Self Made", "title": "'I Always, Always Fight': Octavia Spencer On Demanding More From Hollywood", "question_index": 30, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Kayla Lattimore. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I - this was so fun for me. I'm such a fan. Thank you for having me."}
{"id": "909598297", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates The 90th Birthday Of Jazz Improviser Sonny Rollins", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today we celebrate the 90th birthday of tenor saxophonist Sonny Rollins. He's long been hailed as our greatest living jazz improviser and continues to inspire generations of musicians. Rollins recorded his first sessions as a sideman at age 18 in 1949 and played his last live shows in 2012. In a few minutes, we'll listen back to an interview with Rollins from our archive, which I recorded in 1994. But first, our jazz critic Kevin Whitehead delivers a birthday toast, featuring music from five decades of Sonny Rollins' long career.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "909598297", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates The 90th Birthday Of Jazz Improviser Sonny Rollins", "question_index": 1, "text": "Kevin Whitehead is the author of the new book \"Play The Way You Feel: The Essential Guide To Jazz Stories On Film.\" Coming up, my 1994 interview with Sonny Rollins - that's after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sonny Rollins stopped playing in 2014 for health reasons. As recent interviews show, his mind remains sharp. Rollins has always been self-critical and not much interested in reliving old glories. He b"}
{"id": "909598297", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates The 90th Birthday Of Jazz Improviser Sonny Rollins", "question_index": 2, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're celebrating the 90th birthday of saxophonist Sonny Rollins. Rollins started recording in the late '40s and early in his career, played with musicians who were in the pantheon of modern jazz - Charlie Parker, Bud Powell, Thelonious Monk, Miles Davis, Max Roach and Clifford Brown. I interviewed Rollins in 1994. We began by listening to his tenor saxophone solo from his 1972 recording of the Hoagy Carmichael song \"Skylark.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sonny Rollins stopped playing in 2014 for health reasons. As recent interviews show, his mind remains sharp. Rollins has always been self-critical and not much interested in reliving old glories. He b"}
{"id": "909598297", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates The 90th Birthday Of Jazz Improviser Sonny Rollins", "question_index": 3, "text": "Mm hmm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Monk said to me one time that if it wasn't for music, life wouldn't be worthwhile living. I mean, I'm sort of paraphrasing what he said."}
{"id": "909598297", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates The 90th Birthday Of Jazz Improviser Sonny Rollins", "question_index": 4, "text": "When you're performing and your improvising, are you thinking?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But, you know, if I don't play for a little while, I get physically sick. You know, if I don't play my horn for a while - for a few days or whatever, I actually begin to get sick. And I wonder, well, "}
{"id": "909598297", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates The 90th Birthday Of Jazz Improviser Sonny Rollins", "question_index": 5, "text": "Mm hmm, mm hmm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no, not really. No. No, I don't think. That's why I really practice and I keep these exercises and so on because when I'm actually on the stage and performing, the optimum condition is not to th"}
{"id": "909598297", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates The 90th Birthday Of Jazz Improviser Sonny Rollins", "question_index": 6, "text": "What do you do when you practice now? I mean, you're a brilliant player. You're a veteran player. I think a lot of people of your stature would probably just perform and not exactly practice anymore.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So there's certain times when I actually - it's an out-of-body experience, so to speak."}
{"id": "909598297", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates The 90th Birthday Of Jazz Improviser Sonny Rollins", "question_index": 7, "text": "One of the things that I love about your playing is your repertoire - the songs that you choose to play. And you have a really diverse repertoire, and you play a lot of old pop songs that many people don't know or have forgotten as well as some songs that are, like, novelty songs - like, you know, \"Toot, Toot, Tootsie\" and \"I'm An Old Cowhand\" and Noel Coward songs. Are a lot of these songs songs you grew up with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, when you play a reed instrument - and this might be true with other instruments as well. But when you play a reed instrument, you have to deal with your embouchure, which is the positi"}
{"id": "909598297", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates The 90th Birthday Of Jazz Improviser Sonny Rollins", "question_index": 8, "text": "When you started performing, was it hard to find other musicians who liked the same songs you did and who wanted to play them? And even back in the days when you were playing with Miles Davis or with Clifford Brown, did they share your musical taste?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. A lot of them are songs that I heard when I was a youngster. When I was growing up, the big thing to do every week was go to the movies on Saturday. And on Saturday, we used to see a lot of thes"}
{"id": "909598297", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates The 90th Birthday Of Jazz Improviser Sonny Rollins", "question_index": 9, "text": "Did you ever, like, propose playing something like \"Toot Toot Tootsie\" and have other musicians look at you like you were crazy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would say basically, yes. People like Coltrane and Clifford Brown, we all had an appreciation of what they would call today the standard songs. In my case, I might have found some more obscure songs"}
{"id": "909598297", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates The 90th Birthday Of Jazz Improviser Sonny Rollins", "question_index": 10, "text": "Why don't we pause here and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they might have thought so. But they wouldn't dare to say it."}
{"id": "909598297", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates The 90th Birthday Of Jazz Improviser Sonny Rollins", "question_index": 11, "text": "Right. Right. Why don't we pause here and play your recording of \"There's No Business Like Show Business.\" I love what you do with it. This is Sonny Rollins' \"There's No Business Like Show Business.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was my gig, you know?"}
{"id": "909598297", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates The 90th Birthday Of Jazz Improviser Sonny Rollins", "question_index": 12, "text": "Sonny Rollins is my guest. You grew up in Harlem, in New York. And your parents - I believe both of your parents were from the Virgin Islands?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was my gig, you know?"}
{"id": "909598297", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates The 90th Birthday Of Jazz Improviser Sonny Rollins", "question_index": 13, "text": "What were your parents' ambitions for you? Did they push you to excel when you were young?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "909598297", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates The 90th Birthday Of Jazz Improviser Sonny Rollins", "question_index": 14, "text": "The jazz life when you started to play actually had a lot of heroin involved with it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, I was the youngest child. I have a older brother, who was a very fine classical violinist. He ended up being a physician. Then I had an older sister who was also - sang a lot in church and"}
{"id": "909598297", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates The 90th Birthday Of Jazz Improviser Sonny Rollins", "question_index": 15, "text": "And you got involved with that for a while when you were young. Do you think you would have tried something like that if it weren't for it being such a part of the jazz world in the '50s?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "909598297", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates The 90th Birthday Of Jazz Improviser Sonny Rollins", "question_index": 16, "text": "We're listening back to my 1994 interview with Sonny Rollins. Today is his 90th birthday. We'll hear more of our conversation after a break. And later, we'll hear my interview with Octavia Spencer, who's nominated for an Emmy for her role in the Netflix series \"Self Made,\" based on the life of Madam C.J. Walker, whose line of hair and cosmetic products for Black women made her the first American female self-made millionaire. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think I would have, actually. There would really have been no reason, I don't think, to get involved with that. I got involved with it because a lot of my idols were doing it and so on. So we "}
{"id": "909598297", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates The 90th Birthday Of Jazz Improviser Sonny Rollins", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're celebrating the 90th birthday of tenor saxophonist Sonny Rollins by listening back to an interview from our archive recorded in 1994. Rollins, who has not performed in public since 2012, is recorded as one of the greatest improvisers in the history of jazz. When we left off, we were talking about how heroin was part of the jazz scene when Rollins was starting out as a teenager and how he started using.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think I would have, actually. There would really have been no reason, I don't think, to get involved with that. I got involved with it because a lot of my idols were doing it and so on. So we "}
{"id": "909598297", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates The 90th Birthday Of Jazz Improviser Sonny Rollins", "question_index": 18, "text": "It must have been your parents' worst nightmare when you entered the jazz world and then started using.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think I would have, actually. There would really have been no reason, I don't think, to get involved with that. I got involved with it because a lot of my idols were doing it and so on. So we "}
{"id": "909598297", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates The 90th Birthday Of Jazz Improviser Sonny Rollins", "question_index": 19, "text": "Were you ever arrested?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, you know, my mother was pretty - since I was a baby, my mother really - she stuck by me regardless of what I did. She was really in my corner. But I had a lot of problems som"}
{"id": "909598297", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates The 90th Birthday Of Jazz Improviser Sonny Rollins", "question_index": 20, "text": "In the prison?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I was arrested, unfortunately. I had to get involved with the justice system and all of this stuff, you know? But I was always lucky because I was able to get involved with music p"}
{"id": "909598297", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates The 90th Birthday Of Jazz Improviser Sonny Rollins", "question_index": 21, "text": "Did it scare you when you were in prison? Did you say to yourself, like, what am I doing here?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And in those days, there were other musicians there, you know? So..."}
{"id": "909598297", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates The 90th Birthday Of Jazz Improviser Sonny Rollins", "question_index": 22, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It scared me a lot. It scared me a lot. But again, I was lucky because I could play an instrument."}
{"id": "909598297", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates The 90th Birthday Of Jazz Improviser Sonny Rollins", "question_index": 23, "text": "How did you straighten out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And a lot of the other prisoners knew of me. So I immediately had respect from them. But of course, you know, being locked up is no joyride."}
{"id": "909598297", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates The 90th Birthday Of Jazz Improviser Sonny Rollins", "question_index": 24, "text": "What was the bottom?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it took a little while. But, you know, I slid back a couple of times and everything. But I eventually had gotten down to the complete bottom. So I couldn't have gotten any worse, you know? I mea"}
{"id": "909598297", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates The 90th Birthday Of Jazz Improviser Sonny Rollins", "question_index": 25, "text": "How would you protect your horn during the periods when you were homeless?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the bottom was sleeping in parked cars in garages and all that stuff, you know, and what we used to call in those days carrying the stick. Carrying the stick meant that you were homeless. I gues"}
{"id": "909598297", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates The 90th Birthday Of Jazz Improviser Sonny Rollins", "question_index": 26, "text": "Were you borrowing other people's horns then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I didn't protect my horn. I mean, I didn't have a horn, really."}
{"id": "909598297", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates The 90th Birthday Of Jazz Improviser Sonny Rollins", "question_index": 27, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was borrowing other people's horns."}
{"id": "909598297", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates The 90th Birthday Of Jazz Improviser Sonny Rollins", "question_index": 28, "text": "What did you learn about yourself during that period?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "909598297", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates The 90th Birthday Of Jazz Improviser Sonny Rollins", "question_index": 29, "text": "Once you found that strength and knew that you had it, how else were you able to use it in your life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what did I learn about myself? Well, I learned that I had the strength to get over something which was really deep. And I think one of the things that I'm always - that I always feel good about "}
{"id": "909598297", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates The 90th Birthday Of Jazz Improviser Sonny Rollins", "question_index": 30, "text": "So how'd you use that strength in your music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, then I felt that I could do anything, you know, and I could get back to what I really wanted to do, which was my music."}
{"id": "909598297", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates The 90th Birthday Of Jazz Improviser Sonny Rollins", "question_index": 31, "text": "Tenor saxophonist Sonny Rollins is my guest. Over the years, you've taken several hiatuses. There have been several periods where you haven't performed. And I think one period like that lasted - was it five years? Was that the longest you stayed away from performing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't know. I think - actually, I think I always had strength in my music even when I was a kid and I used to practice for hours and hours and hours at a time. I mean, I always had something w"}
{"id": "909598297", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates The 90th Birthday Of Jazz Improviser Sonny Rollins", "question_index": 32, "text": "Right. This is during the period when you were practicing on the Williamsburg Bridge in New York because it was too loud for you to practice in your apartment.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think about - I think the - well, it's hard to say. I took a hiatus on the bridge, which was pretty well-documented."}
{"id": "909598297", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates The 90th Birthday Of Jazz Improviser Sonny Rollins", "question_index": 33, "text": "So when you take a hiatus, when do you know it's time to get back to performing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "909598297", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates The 90th Birthday Of Jazz Improviser Sonny Rollins", "question_index": 34, "text": "I'd love to know what it feels like to play your horn on the Williamsburg Bridge. And this was the period when you weren't performing, but you were practicing a lot on the bridge - I guess in the middle of the night?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when I took my hiatus on the bridge, it became apparent because I had sort of gotten what I wanted to do. I was trying to really accomplish something musically. And I'd sort of gotten close enou"}
{"id": "909598297", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates The 90th Birthday Of Jazz Improviser Sonny Rollins", "question_index": 35, "text": "You were on the pedestrian walk?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah, we played in the night and the daytime, any time. It was actually a beautiful place to play because it was a nice space up there. You were really on top of the subway. The trains that came"}
{"id": "909598297", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates The 90th Birthday Of Jazz Improviser Sonny Rollins", "question_index": 36, "text": "Yeah, New Yorkers are immune to everything", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, the pedestrian walk. So it's really a nice space up there. And you're sort of right in the middle of everything. You can see the Manhattan and, on the other side, Brooklyn. And the boats would b"}
{"id": "909598297", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates The 90th Birthday Of Jazz Improviser Sonny Rollins", "question_index": 37, "text": ". It's just been a pleasure to talk with you. We've been wanting to talk with you on the show for so long.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, the pedestrian walk. So it's really a nice space up there. And you're sort of right in the middle of everything. You can see the Manhattan and, on the other side, Brooklyn. And the boats would b"}
{"id": "909598297", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates The 90th Birthday Of Jazz Improviser Sonny Rollins", "question_index": 38, "text": "Thank you so much for doing it. It's been wonderful.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks, Terry."}
{"id": "909598297", "date": "2020-09-08", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates The 90th Birthday Of Jazz Improviser Sonny Rollins", "question_index": 39, "text": "My interview with Sonny Rollins was recorded in 1994. Today is his 90th birthday. I send my best birthday wishes to Sonny Rollins and thank him for our interview and for so much great music - his improvisations, his love of melody and his choice of such varied and wonderful songs. Coming up, my interview with Octavia Spencer, who's nominated for an Emmy for her role in the Netflix series \"Self Made: Inspired By The Life Of Madam C.J. Walker.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "911866740", "date": "2020-09-11", "guest": "Bill Skarsgard", "title": "Novelist Donald Ray Pollock On Factory Work And Finding Fiction Later In Life", "question_index": 0, "text": "Donald Ray Pollock, welcome to FRESH AIR. I'd like to start with a reading from your new book \"The Devil All The Time.\" It's about the second paragraph from the prologue. So would you just set it up for us?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In both the movie and the novel, the characters in \"The Devil All The Time\" are driven to extremes, whether they're fathers and sons, serial killers or preachers. The story begins in the small town of"}
{"id": "911866740", "date": "2020-09-11", "guest": "Bill Skarsgard", "title": "Novelist Donald Ray Pollock On Factory Work And Finding Fiction Later In Life", "question_index": 1, "text": "That's Donald Ray Pollock reading from his new novel \"The Devil All The Time.\" You know, in the reading that you did, the father tells the son that the next time somebody beats him up, the son has to fight back. And that seems to be a recurring theme. Like, in the opening story of your collection of short stories - the collection is called \"Knockemstiff\" - the opening sentence reads, (reading) my father showed me how to hurt a man one August night at the Torch Drive-In when I was 7 years old. It was the only thing he was ever any good at. You certainly seem interested in the idea of a father kind of indoctrinating a son on the need to fight back and then egging him on to do it, even when it's inappropriate. So is this a story that played out in your life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what we have here is a young boy. His name is Arvin Eugene Russell. And he's following behind his father, Willard. And they're in a place called Knockemstiff. And they're going to Willard's pray"}
{"id": "911866740", "date": "2020-09-11", "guest": "Bill Skarsgard", "title": "Novelist Donald Ray Pollock On Factory Work And Finding Fiction Later In Life", "question_index": 2, "text": "Were you bullied in school? You said you took after your mother, who wouldn't hurt a fly. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just - you know, it's just - you know, I'm a father. You know, I have a daughter who's about 30 years old now. And I have always felt that I wasn't as good as I could have been. Her mother and I wer"}
{"id": "911866740", "date": "2020-09-11", "guest": "Bill Skarsgard", "title": "Novelist Donald Ray Pollock On Factory Work And Finding Fiction Later In Life", "question_index": 3, "text": "And if you were bullied, would you fight back? Did you know how to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "911866740", "date": "2020-09-11", "guest": "Bill Skarsgard", "title": "Novelist Donald Ray Pollock On Factory Work And Finding Fiction Later In Life", "question_index": 4, "text": "Would you describe what the town of Knockemstiff was like when you were growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, I wasn't bullied in school. I never really had any problems with that. And yeah, I mean, I would fight back if I had to. But that situation, you know, didn't come about very much - probably,"}
{"id": "911866740", "date": "2020-09-11", "guest": "Bill Skarsgard", "title": "Novelist Donald Ray Pollock On Factory Work And Finding Fiction Later In Life", "question_index": 5, "text": "First locate it for us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when I was growing up there, it was, you know..."}
{"id": "911866740", "date": "2020-09-11", "guest": "Bill Skarsgard", "title": "Novelist Donald Ray Pollock On Factory Work And Finding Fiction Later In Life", "question_index": 6, "text": "So did you find this nurturing being in a town where half the people in it were related to you or incredibly claustrophobic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. Well, Knockemstiff is about 13 miles west of Chillicothe, Ohio, which is, you know, southern Ohio. It was its own little place, you know? There wasn't much else around there, but it was a communit"}
{"id": "911866740", "date": "2020-09-11", "guest": "Bill Skarsgard", "title": "Novelist Donald Ray Pollock On Factory Work And Finding Fiction Later In Life", "question_index": 7, "text": "Well, you are somewhere else, but where you are is in Chillicothe, which is...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think when I was a kid - when I was a kid, it was claustrophobic for me. You know, I was one of those kids - I was always unsatisfied. I always wanted to be somebody else and somewhere else. And so "}
{"id": "911866740", "date": "2020-09-11", "guest": "Bill Skarsgard", "title": "Novelist Donald Ray Pollock On Factory Work And Finding Fiction Later In Life", "question_index": 8, "text": "...About 13 miles away. So, like, you got out, but you didn't go very far.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "911866740", "date": "2020-09-11", "guest": "Bill Skarsgard", "title": "Novelist Donald Ray Pollock On Factory Work And Finding Fiction Later In Life", "question_index": 9, "text": "Doing what? Are your parents still there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I really didn't get out. I mean, that's the weird contradiction to that whole thing. You know, I wanted to escape. And then when I finally got my chance or whatever, I chose to stay. I'm out at Knocke"}
{"id": "911866740", "date": "2020-09-11", "guest": "Bill Skarsgard", "title": "Novelist Donald Ray Pollock On Factory Work And Finding Fiction Later In Life", "question_index": 10, "text": "You had that job for a long time. How many years did you work at the paper mill?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I go to visit my parents, yeah. They're both still alive. You know, I have a brother and two sisters, and they all live fairly close to there. And so I think, though, as far as escape goes, what happe"}
{"id": "911866740", "date": "2020-09-11", "guest": "Bill Skarsgard", "title": "Novelist Donald Ray Pollock On Factory Work And Finding Fiction Later In Life", "question_index": 11, "text": "And you didn't start writing until you were around 50? Or is that - is 50...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was there 32 years."}
{"id": "911866740", "date": "2020-09-11", "guest": "Bill Skarsgard", "title": "Novelist Donald Ray Pollock On Factory Work And Finding Fiction Later In Life", "question_index": 12, "text": "OK. So how come it took so long? Did you know - when you weren't writing, did you know that you had that in you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm 56 now. And I started writing when I was 45."}
{"id": "911866740", "date": "2020-09-11", "guest": "Bill Skarsgard", "title": "Novelist Donald Ray Pollock On Factory Work And Finding Fiction Later In Life", "question_index": 13, "text": "Ha.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I'd always been a big reader, as I said. And I loved books. And I think maybe in the back of my mind, you know, I always thought writing would be a great way to get by in the world. An"}
{"id": "911866740", "date": "2020-09-11", "guest": "Bill Skarsgard", "title": "Novelist Donald Ray Pollock On Factory Work And Finding Fiction Later In Life", "question_index": 14, "text": "So when you decided you wanted to learn how to write, what did that mean?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2011 interview with author Donald Ray Pollock. His novel, \"The Devil All The Time,\" has been adapted into a movie that starts streaming next week on Netfli"}
{"id": "911866740", "date": "2020-09-11", "guest": "Bill Skarsgard", "title": "Novelist Donald Ray Pollock On Factory Work And Finding Fiction Later In Life", "question_index": 15, "text": "Whose stories did you type out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I didn't know any writers or anything. And for a while, I just sort of scribbled and struggled. And then I read an interview with a writer, and I can't recall her name now. I know it was a l"}
{"id": "911866740", "date": "2020-09-11", "guest": "Bill Skarsgard", "title": "Novelist Donald Ray Pollock On Factory Work And Finding Fiction Later In Life", "question_index": 16, "text": "Was it hard for you to find your subject matter as a writer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I typed out a lot of different stories I was typing out a story at least once a week. And that went on for about a year and a half. So John Cheever, Hemingway, Flannery O'Connor, Richard Yates, Denis "}
{"id": "911866740", "date": "2020-09-11", "guest": "Bill Skarsgard", "title": "Novelist Donald Ray Pollock On Factory Work And Finding Fiction Later In Life", "question_index": 17, "text": "There's a passage in your new novel that's about a bus driver, and the bus driver's father had once gotten a certificate from the railroad for not missing a single day of work in 20 years. And the bus driver's mother always held this up as like what you could do if you really, you know, were a striver and tried to accomplish something. And when the bus driver's father died, the bus driver hoped that that certificate would be buried with his father so he didn't have to look at it anymore. But instead, his mother just, like, put it on the wall to display it in the living room.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when I first started trying to learn how to write, you know, as I said, like, maybe I would copy out a John Cheever story. So then I would try to write my own story about some East Coast suburba"}
{"id": "911866740", "date": "2020-09-11", "guest": "Bill Skarsgard", "title": "Novelist Donald Ray Pollock On Factory Work And Finding Fiction Later In Life", "question_index": 18, "text": "And then the bus driver thinks, it wore on you after a while, other people's accomplishments.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "911866740", "date": "2020-09-11", "guest": "Bill Skarsgard", "title": "Novelist Donald Ray Pollock On Factory Work And Finding Fiction Later In Life", "question_index": 19, "text": "I love that sentence. Did you ever feel that way? I mean, and the acknowledgment here seems so relatively small. Like, a good attendance record, not to knock that, but for that to be like, you know, the zenith of somebody's life is...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "911866740", "date": "2020-09-11", "guest": "Bill Skarsgard", "title": "Novelist Donald Ray Pollock On Factory Work And Finding Fiction Later In Life", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yeah. But did you feel that way, that it wore on you, other people's accomplishments?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "911866740", "date": "2020-09-11", "guest": "Bill Skarsgard", "title": "Novelist Donald Ray Pollock On Factory Work And Finding Fiction Later In Life", "question_index": 21, "text": "How has your life changed now as a published writer? You have a collection of short stories. You have a new novel. You got a $35,000 cash prize, the PEN/Robert Bingham Award.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think that I paid so much attention to other people's successes or whatever, but I know that I was aware. You know, by the time I was 32 or so and I'd been working at the mill for about 14 yea"}
{"id": "911866740", "date": "2020-09-11", "guest": "Bill Skarsgard", "title": "Novelist Donald Ray Pollock On Factory Work And Finding Fiction Later In Life", "question_index": 22, "text": "So, like, what's different about your life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm hmm."}
{"id": "911866740", "date": "2020-09-11", "guest": "Bill Skarsgard", "title": "Novelist Donald Ray Pollock On Factory Work And Finding Fiction Later In Life", "question_index": 23, "text": "Daydream and think it's a legitimate part of your work?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I have a lot more time to just sit on the porch and, you know, smoke and..."}
{"id": "911866740", "date": "2020-09-11", "guest": "Bill Skarsgard", "title": "Novelist Donald Ray Pollock On Factory Work And Finding Fiction Later In Life", "question_index": 24, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, pretty much."}
{"id": "911866740", "date": "2020-09-11", "guest": "Bill Skarsgard", "title": "Novelist Donald Ray Pollock On Factory Work And Finding Fiction Later In Life", "question_index": 25, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, at least that's what I tell my wife, anyway."}
{"id": "911866740", "date": "2020-09-11", "guest": "Bill Skarsgard", "title": "Novelist Donald Ray Pollock On Factory Work And Finding Fiction Later In Life", "question_index": 26, "text": "Well, Donald Ray Pollock, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But my life hasn't really changed that much. I mean, I get a lot more e-mails now, you know, that sort of thing. But, you know, I still live in the same house. I still pretty much - you know, my daily"}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 0, "text": "That's from Marty Stuart's new album \"Saturday Night/Sunday Morning.\" Marty Stuart, welcome to FRESH AIR. What a pleasure to have you on the show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I keep on wanting you with all my heart. Time stands still for me every minute that we're apart. I keep on needing you. That's just what I do. Can't seem to help myself when it comes to lovi"}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 1, "text": "My pleasure. So why did you want to combine Saturday night kind of songs with Sunday morning spiritual songs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's an honor to be on your show, Terry. Thank you for having me."}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 2, "text": "Did you hear a lot of the Sunday morning songs that you play at church, or do you know most of those songs from country music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I've always said that country music has always shared a very unique relationship with gospel music. The hooting and hollering is, you know, always in abundance, but at some point the hillbilly a"}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 3, "text": "What songs did you hear when you were actually in church?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, being from Mississippi, the church house is kind of the common denominator. It was for me growing up. Like so many public performers, that was the first place I was ever invited to sing. Mainly,"}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 4, "text": "And you do \"Uncloudy Day\" with Mavis Staples on your new album.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The standard fare was, you know, \"Amazing Grace,\" \"How Great Thou Art.\" And I always loved, you know, the Southern gospel music and traditional hymn book music. But the Black gospel songs that touched"}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 5, "text": "Which you own, which they gave to you after he died.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely - playing Pops Staples' guitar. And..."}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 6, "text": "So since you've recorded \"Uncloudy Day\" on your new album and since Mavis Staples is singing with you on it, why don't we hear that? So this is Marty Stuart with Mavis Staples from his new album \"Saturday Night/Sunday Morning.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They gave to me, and it was like being handed a responsibility, an Excalibur and an instrument of truth all in one. Pops was one of my dearest friends, and I miss him very much."}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 7, "text": "MARTY", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They gave to me, and it was like being handed a responsibility, an Excalibur and an instrument of truth all in one. Pops was one of my dearest friends, and I miss him very much."}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 8, "text": "That's Marty Stuart with Mavis Staples from his new album \"Saturday Night/Sunday Morning.\" There's Saturday night songs and Sunday morning gospel songs, one album for each kind", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Oh, they tell me of a home where no storm clouds rise. Oh, oh, they tell me of an uncloudy day. Well, well, well, yes, oh, yes. They tell me. Lord, they tell me now. They tell me. I've got a"}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 9, "text": ". It's a double album. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Oh, they tell me of a home where no storm clouds rise. Oh, oh, they tell me of an uncloudy day. Well, well, well, yes, oh, yes. They tell me. Lord, they tell me now. They tell me. I've got a"}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Pops Staples called me one time and said - he was coming to town to record with us. And he said, Marty, I need a Fender 65 with some shake on it and a stretch-out car. And I said, sure, Pops, whatever"}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 11, "text": "You've written a lot of your own Sunday morning kind of songs, your own spirituals. I want to ask you to do one for us, if you don't mind. You've brought your guitar...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was beautiful."}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 12, "text": "...With you, which is very generous of you. So there's a song that you do called \"Long Walk To Heaven,\" which is on your new album. Can you do part of that song for us...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 13, "text": "...And maybe tell us about writing it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 14, "text": "Marty Stuart, you've brought your guitar. Can I ask you to play for us one of the...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2014 interview with country artist Marty Stuart. He's just been selected for induction into the Country Music Hall of Fame, with the ceremony expected to t"}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 15, "text": "...Original songs that's on the \"Saturday Night\" album from your double album?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 16, "text": "And this one's called \"Rough Around The Edges.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 17, "text": "Maybe you could talk with - talk a little bit about writing it before you play it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 18, "text": "No, that's a great song. So what got you back from the edge?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I woke up this morning with miles of life behind me. My friends and family worried cause they don't know where to find me. Once again, I beg forgiveness for another lost night in my soul. So"}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 19, "text": "You got into country music at such a young age. You were 13 when you started performing on the road with Lester Flatt?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my heart finally found a home when I married Connie Smith. And I was tired of feeling bad. And it was time to grow up and get on with life. So that's what happened."}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 20, "text": "So how did you get to tour with him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was. That's right."}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 21, "text": "Let's hear how you sounded when you were 13 and on the road with Lester Flatt. And this is when you were on \"The Porter Wagoner Show,\" TV show. You're going to be doing a song called \"When The Bluebird Sings.\" And Lester Flatt sings first, and you're kind of singing echo on this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "How's that? And so I went on the road that summer and fell in love with the lifestyle of the road. I got to wear clothes the way I wanted to. I could wear my hair goofy, met cool people, could stay up"}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 22, "text": "And then - and we'll also hear you take a mandolin solo.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 23, "text": "OK, this is the 13-year-old...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 24, "text": "...Marty Stuart with Lester Flatt on the Porter Wagoner TV show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 25, "text": "That was the 13-year-old Marty Stuart...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Calling me back to my home."}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 26, "text": "That must have felt great to get so much applause at the age of 13.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The first time he ever put me on stage at the Grand Ole Opry, you know, I was hoping my folks were listening. I knew they were. He put me on stage to play the mandolin, and I was so little I had to st"}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 27, "text": "And you played with Lester Flatt until his death - right? - in 1979.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's called an Opry moment when something really happens good at the Grand Ole Opry. And at the end of all that applause, I turned around and, all of a sudden, there was Roy Acuff, and there was Bill "}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 28, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did."}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 29, "text": "So can I ask you to play for us a song that was very influential to you early on when you were growing up? A song that made you fall in love or that helped you fall in love with country music and that you've tried to emulate yourself as a songwriter.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did."}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 30, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Terry, we had a wonderful radio station in our hometown, and it's still on the air - WHOC, 1490, 1,000 watts of pure pleasure."}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 31, "text": "So we were talking before about how you were on the road by the age of 13 with Lester Flatt and stayed with him in his band until his death in 1979. Not long after that, you played with Johnny Cash for several years in his band. How did you end up moving on to Johnny Cash's band?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's 2014 interview with Marty Stuart. He's a Grammy-award-winning country music songwriter, singer, guitarist and mand"}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 32, "text": "Martini on his head or in his hand?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I needed a job. And I was down in Nashville at a place called the Old Time Pickin' Parlor, and there was a wonderful guitar builder named Danny Ferrington, who was an up-and-coming luthier at the time"}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 33, "text": "OK", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so I thought - yeah, on top of his head."}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so I thought - yeah, on top of his head."}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 35, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not spilling a drop. And he later showed me he was an Arthur Murray dance instructor in Memphis in the '50s, so he was still showing everybody how he could do that. So that was my getting-on place. An"}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 36, "text": "So had Johnny Cash already changed from Nudie suits to all black?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he said, do you have anything black to wear? I said, probably. He said, well, I'm probably going to take a nap. And I'll probably see you at the show - click. And that's how I got the job."}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 37, "text": "OK", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He was into pretty black suits made by Manuel. You know, I think there was a lot of black-on-black suits going around at that time."}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 38, "text": ". So, you know, I hope this isn't too personal. A few years later, you married Johnny Cash's daughter Cindy and stayed married for five years. Did getting married or getting divorced affect your relationship with Johnny Cash?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He was into pretty black suits made by Manuel. You know, I think there was a lot of black-on-black suits going around at that time."}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 39, "text": "Wait. What did he call you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 40, "text": "Oh", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Old No. 9, the ninth son-in-law."}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 41, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Old No. 9, the ninth son-in-law."}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 42, "text": "Well, just a few days before he died, you took his photo, and that photo is in your book that collects your photos, and it's also at the exhibit of your photos in Nashville now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wasn't the first guy to come through to marry one of the pretty Cash girls or the Carter girls that didn't work out. So I think from Day One, there was an understanding that he was my chief and my b"}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 43, "text": "At the Frist, yeah. It's a beautiful photo.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "At the Frist."}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 44, "text": "Do you want to describe it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 45, "text": "Wow. It's interesting that you able to have that kind of connection with him right at the end and even collaborate on a song with him and take that fabulous photograph. It's two really deep connections to make in addition to the love that you expressed", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was four days before he passed away. I was over at his house, and I have no idea how to - probably had a bag slung over my shoulder. I had just been to Folsom, Calif., and I had been given a "}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 46, "text": "for each other, which is no small thing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was four days before he passed away. I was over at his house, and I have no idea how to - probably had a bag slung over my shoulder. I had just been to Folsom, Calif., and I had been given a "}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 47, "text": "Does it feel like a visitation when you have a dream like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 48, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. It was a wonderful visit."}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 49, "text": "And I'll ask you to choose one that you'd like to do.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So you went on your own as a solo performer in the '80s. And I'm going to ask you to play an early song of yours that you still like a lot and that helped establish you."}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 50, "text": "I love that song, by the way. Yeah. Go ahead", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) There's a girl trying to steal my heart. And I'm tempted. Even though she could tear it apart, I'm tempted. In her eyes, there's mystery every time she smiles at me. Well, I know how it coul"}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 51, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) There's a girl trying to steal my heart. And I'm tempted. Even though she could tear it apart, I'm tempted. In her eyes, there's mystery every time she smiles at me. Well, I know how it coul"}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 52, "text": "There was a period where you decided you didn't like what you were playing. You didn't like where your career in music was heading. You'd been very successful. But you wanted to make a musical change. What was that about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. I heard it the first time on the radio when I was in Lubbock, Texas, which was Buddy Holly's hometown. And I'd gone to the local station to do a radio interview to promote the show that eve"}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 53, "text": "Could you do one of the songs that you wrote when you decided you wanted to be on a different musical path?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was at the end of the 1990s. And I had been making commercial country records since about 1986. And I had every level of success, from the worst to the best. And we were out there rockin' and rolli"}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 54, "text": "Wow. Thank you", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Actually came - I was looking for inspiration. And sometimes when I need inspiration, I go to Memphis because Memphis is a wonderful city. And it's a completely different atmosphere than Nashville."}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 55, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Actually came - I was looking for inspiration. And sometimes when I need inspiration, I go to Memphis because Memphis is a wonderful city. And it's a completely different atmosphere than Nashville."}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 56, "text": "Thank you for doing that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're welcome."}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 57, "text": "You've embraced a lot of aspects of country music from the '60s and '70s when you were coming of age, including the kind of rhinestone-embroidered suits. And I think there's an aspect of country music that a lot of people were rejecting at that time because they considered it too commercial, too show bizzy, including the suits. So talk about why you not only embraced it, you collect it. You have this huge collection of, like, Nudie Suits and also of great country music performers' guitars and other instruments. You also do your own photographs of country music people. So you have a museum", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2014 interview with country artist Marty Stuart. He's just been selected for induction into the Country Music Hall of Fame with the ceremony expected to ta"}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 58, "text": ". I think you have your own country museum.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2014 interview with country artist Marty Stuart. He's just been selected for induction into the Country Music Hall of Fame with the ceremony expected to ta"}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 59, "text": "Are the clothes that you wear and that your band, The Fabulous Superlatives, wear clothes that you saved? Or are they clothes that you've had made for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And a big insurance bill to go with it. Well, I came to Nashville at a wonderful time. It was 1972. But there came a time in the late '70s and early '80s when, as you said, those suits and those guita"}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 60, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no, they're new clothes. They were inspired by perhaps some of those old fashions. Lankershim Boulevard in North Hollywood, Calif., Nudie's Rodeo Tailors was there. Manuel was later there and Jaim"}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 61, "text": "What's the craziest thing you've ever done to get a country music artifact that you wanted?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And Johnny Cash. I mean, masked men and rhinestones were kind of commonplace on that street. Nobody even batted an eye. It was a wonderful place to hang out."}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 62, "text": "And you don't wear them because it would bring bad luck. You just put them in your museum.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Pretty good."}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 63, "text": "And then another thing that happened in your life - and very few people can say this - you married the person who was one of your idols when you were young.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Absolutely."}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 64, "text": "Yeah, the country music singer Connie Smith. And you went to see her when you were - what? - 12.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Connie Smith."}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 65, "text": "Yeah. That's great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So it took me 25 years to talk her into it, but we're happily married for almost 20 years now."}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 66, "text": "And you've produced music by her. She performs on your TV show a lot. And you duet with her on your previous album, which is called \"Ghost Train.\" And there's a song of yours that you sing called \"I Run To You.\" Did you write this for her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So it took me 25 years to talk her into it, but we're happily married for almost 20 years now."}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 67, "text": "Oh, I didn't realize that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Connie and I wrote it together."}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 68, "text": "Marty Stuart, thank you so much for talking with us and for performing for us. It's just been a treat. Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We've written several songs together. And we were writing songs for just writing. And this song came out of the sky, and I said, Connie, this is a good song. And I'm very cautious about singing with h"}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 69, "text": "This is my guest Marty Stuart with his wife, Connie Smith, from Marty Stuart's album \"Ghost Train.\" And this is \"I Run To You.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it has been a treat to be on your show. Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "913949319", "date": "2020-09-17", "guest": "Marty Stuart", "title": "Country Singer Marty Stuart Plays Songs Of Sin And Redemption", "question_index": 70, "text": "MARTY", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it has been a treat to be on your show. Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "914361480", "date": "2020-09-18", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 0, "text": "\"Watchmen\" is based on the graphic novel of the same name and combines elements of superhero comics, sci-fi and time travel and the all-too-true trauma of racism in the U.S. In the series, in 2016, a white supremacist group attacked the homes of 40 police officers working for the Tulsa Police Department. Of those who survived, only two stayed with the force - a Black cop, Detective Angela Abar, played by Regina King, and a white cop, Police Chief Judd Crawford, played by Don Johnson. To protect themselves, the police decide to conceal their identities by wearing masks. In the episode that Jefferson is nominated for writing, Angela discovers a 100-year-old man who turns out to be her grandfather and appears to have lynched Don Johnson's character. As the FBI investigates the murder, Angela wants to know more about her grandfather, so she swallows his bottle of a drug called Nostalgia. The drug contains the person's harvested memories so he or she can relive them. By taking her grandfather's Nostalgia, Angela experiences what he lived through. She's thrown back in time to Tulsa, when he was a child and survived the Tulsa massacre of 1921, when mobs of white residents were given weapons by city officials and attacked Black people and businesses, destroying a prosperous Black community that was known as Black Wall Street. Angela also experiences how her grandfather went on to become a police officer in the 1930s who faced brutality from white supremacists, some of whom were his fellow cops. To fight back against white supremacists, he wears a black hood to hide his identity and becomes known as Hooded Justice. Cord Jefferson has also written for \"Succession,\" \"The Good Place,\" \"Master Of None\" and Larry Wilmore's late-night series of political satire and conversation \"The Nightly Show.\" Jefferson also wrote for the now defunct website Gawker, where he was the site's West Coast editor. Cord Jefferson, welcome to FRESH AIR. And congratulations on your Emmy nomination and all the others that \"Watchmen\" has received.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, editor of the website TV Worth Watching, sitting in for Terry Gross. The Emmy Awards are this Sunday. The TV series nominated for the most Emmys this year, 26 o"}
{"id": "914361480", "date": "2020-09-18", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 1, "text": "So I want to start with the Tulsa massacre, which is kind of central to the whole story in this. How did it become a central part of the series? I don't think it's in the graphic novel that it's based on.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "914361480", "date": "2020-09-18", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 2, "text": "You could say it's hard to be shocked by anything in terms of the racist aspect of America's history. On the other hand, was there something about the Tulsa massacre that you found particularly shocking?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is not anywhere in the graphic novel. That idea came to us via Damon Lindelof, the creator of the show. He came into the room on Day 1 and said that he wanted the Tulsa massacre to be a part of the"}
{"id": "914361480", "date": "2020-09-18", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 3, "text": "I wonder if writing the series made you think a lot about generational trauma, how trauma is kind of passed on to succeeding generations.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So a friend said to me that the thing that really made them think that it was all made up when they watched the first episode was the planes firebombing the buildings. They said that that seemed ridic"}
{"id": "914361480", "date": "2020-09-18", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 4, "text": "Is it something you thought about a lot before?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. I think it was one of the most important themes to me in the series, and it was incredibly important to me personally, too. I was, you know, thrilled that we were putting it in there."}
{"id": "914361480", "date": "2020-09-18", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 5, "text": "So the character who is the superhero in this, who is also the character who is the cop in the 1930s and who survived the Tulsa massacre, he becomes known as Hooded Justice. He takes the hood that was used when he was being lynched and - this is going to be complicated. But fellow cops who were white supremacists lynched him with a black hood over him and then cut him down and basically said, next time, we're not going to cut you down. He takes that hood and uses it to disguise himself to fight white supremacists. So it's an interesting twist on the superhero origin story. Do you want to talk about the process of coming up with that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah. My father is a Vietnam veteran, and he is a - I think that he would tell you himself that he did not and was not given the resources necessary to deal with the sort of emotional and mental"}
{"id": "914361480", "date": "2020-09-18", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 6, "text": "And maybe you'd want to explain it a little better than I did.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "914361480", "date": "2020-09-18", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 7, "text": "Were there any personal experiences you drew on in writing the series?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, I'll try. I'll try. It is complicated. But so Hooded Justice is a character in the original text of \"Watchmen.\" He's not a big character by any means, but he is the original superhero. He "}
{"id": "914361480", "date": "2020-09-18", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 8, "text": "let's take a short break here. And then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Cord Jefferson. He was a writer on the HBO series \"Watchmen,\" which is nominated for 26 Emmys, more than any other show. He's one of the nominees for writing Episode 6. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think that this is - that sort of anger that Angela feels and that sort of just barely-beneath-the-surface rage that she feels, due in no small part to the traumas that were enacted on her anc"}
{"id": "914361480", "date": "2020-09-18", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Cord Jefferson. He was a writer for the HBO series \"Watchmen\" and is nominated for an Emmy for writing Episode 6, the episode where Angela takes her grandfather's Nostalgia pills and experiences his life, including surviving the Tulsa massacre of 1921. So the writers' room for \"Watchmen\" was a diverse writers' room. Did you have a lot of conversations about race in the writers' room?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think that this is - that sort of anger that Angela feels and that sort of just barely-beneath-the-surface rage that she feels, due in no small part to the traumas that were enacted on her anc"}
{"id": "914361480", "date": "2020-09-18", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 10, "text": "You've talked a little bit about your feelings about, like, diverse writers' rooms and diverse newsrooms. And you said that you think people should be open and direct about wanting to hire a diverse writers' room or a diverse newsroom. But you've also said in The Washington Post that something that happens a lot when it comes to diversity in Hollywood and everywhere else is that people will just populate the room with people of color or queer people or women but not really respect those people's voices or pay attention to what they're saying. So can you talk a little bit about what you think is, like, the best approach to creating diversity when none already exists?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, a great many. You know, something that I always tell people is - and one of the problems and difficulties that people have had, you know, in Hollywood but in every industry, really, is tha"}
{"id": "914361480", "date": "2020-09-18", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 11, "text": "You've talked about how you feel like you inherited some of your father's experiences and trauma from the war in Vietnam. Are there other things that you think made you so effected by fear and pain that expressed itself as anger?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, once you get people in there, you need to be willing to drop your ego and let your guard down and actually listen to people. I think that when we initially got into the room, Damon - t"}
{"id": "914361480", "date": "2020-09-18", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Cord Jefferson. He was a writer on the HBO series \"Watchmen,\" which is nominated for 26 Emmys, more than any other show. He's nominated for writing Episode 6 with the showrunner Damon Lindelof. We'll be right back after we take a break. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think that, you know, I was - my family spent some time overseas when I was younger. But by the time I was 5 or 6, we had moved back to Tucson. And that's where I spent the rest of my childhoo"}
{"id": "914361480", "date": "2020-09-18", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Cord Jefferson. He wrote for the HBO series \"Watchmen\" and is nominated for an Emmy for writing Episode 6, the episode where Angela takes her grandfather's Nostalgia pills and experiences his life, including surviving the Tulsa massacre of 1921. \"Watchmen\" is nominated for a total of 26 Emmys. Cord Jefferson has also written for HBO's \"Succession.\" He wrote for \"The Good Place,\" \"Master Of None\" and Larry Wilmore's show of political satire and conversation \"The Nightly Show.\" He also wrote for the now-defunct website Gawker, where he was the site's West Coast editor, and the show that he's creating now is based on his experiences at Gawker. I want to talk with you about some of your personal essays. You've written some really good personal essays. One of them was about when you were diagnosed with atrial fibrillation, which is basically a very irregular or fast heartbeat, which can be very dangerous. And you open it by talking about how - and I want to frame this by saying, I think we're all feeling kind of vulnerable now because of the pandemic. But you open the essay by saying that you hadn't really thought much about vulnerability or death before, and you remember telling a girl that you dated in college - and I'll quote you - \"I'd like to be dead by 50. It was a stupid thing to say, the kind of low-risk rebellion a teenager from the suburbs engages to seem dangerous and irreverent, like smoking a joint or shoplifting or wearing eyeliner, all of which I have also tried.\" And you told your girlfriend, this world is trash; who would want to live here for a long time? And then when you were in your 20s or 30s, you had the heart issue. I'd like you to go back to when you were in college and thinking of that - of life in that way, like who wants to live past the age of 50. Can you go back into that mindset for us and tell us what that was like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think that, you know, I was - my family spent some time overseas when I was younger. But by the time I was 5 or 6, we had moved back to Tucson. And that's where I spent the rest of my childhoo"}
{"id": "914361480", "date": "2020-09-18", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I was a very, very angry young man in college. Like I said, I still think I deal with a lot of anger issues. And so I think that that was just - it was me being angry but not understanding that "}
{"id": "914361480", "date": "2020-09-18", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 15, "text": "I want to get back to what we started talking about here, which was your atrial fibrillation, the irregular heartbeat, that got you into the hospital, that could have killed you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...As opposed to what I actually sounded like, which is just a stupid kid. So I think that was me not fully understanding that what I was actually feeling was anger. And I think that I've talked to a "}
{"id": "914361480", "date": "2020-09-18", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 16, "text": "I mean, the doctors are all saying to you, like, good luck", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "914361480", "date": "2020-09-18", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "914361480", "date": "2020-09-18", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 18, "text": "Best of luck to you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's..."}
{"id": "914361480", "date": "2020-09-18", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 19, "text": "And you describe, like - you figure, well, OK, I'll take an Uber to the hospital, and they say, no, no, no, this is - you don't take an Uber; like, you're taking an ambulance. This is really serious. And you describe yourself reading Kurt Vonnegut's novel \"Slaughterhouse Five\" in the ambulance. And \"Slaughterhouse Five\" is set during World War II and the firebombing of Dresden.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It has a risk of stroke. The thing itself isn't very dangerous, but there's a stroke risk associated with it, which is dangerous."}
{"id": "914361480", "date": "2020-09-18", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 20, "text": "Thinking like, wow, that's not a great choice when you're heading to the hospital.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "914361480", "date": "2020-09-18", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 21, "text": "No, no. But, anyways, when you got through all of this, how did it change your feeling about your body and your vulnerability and mortality?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Not the most soothing reading."}
{"id": "914361480", "date": "2020-09-18", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 22, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Cord Jefferson. He was a writer on the HBO series \"Watchmen,\" which is nominated for 26 Emmys. He's nominated for writing the sixth episode. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I sort of immediately felt like I needed to change. I was - you know, I would smoke cigarettes. I was smoking cigarettes at the time, and I stopped doing that entirely. And I started exercising and ta"}
{"id": "914361480", "date": "2020-09-18", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Cord Jefferson. He wrote for the HBO series \"Watchmen\" and is nominated for an Emmy for writing Episode 6. He's also written for HBO's \"Succession,\" for \"The Good Place,\" \"Master Of None\" and Larry Wilmore's \"The Nightly Show.\" In 2014, you wrote a piece about your mother and her diagnosis of a type of breast cancer that's very aggressive and very difficult to treat, and I regret to say she died in 2016. And our sorry to you to hear that when we talked earlier.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I sort of immediately felt like I needed to change. I was - you know, I would smoke cigarettes. I was smoking cigarettes at the time, and I stopped doing that entirely. And I started exercising and ta"}
{"id": "914361480", "date": "2020-09-18", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 24, "text": "And you write a little bit about her history in that piece and about how - sounds like her mother suffered with a very severe undiagnosed depression, if we're talking about generational trauma.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks."}
{"id": "914361480", "date": "2020-09-18", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 25, "text": "Yeah, yeah. And your mother is white, and she - and your father is Black. And when your mother - I think when your mother started dating him, your grandfather on your mother's side was really angry. And I think when you were born, she - he refused to see her anymore because you were Black.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Well, my mom had a difficult childhood, too, so that is absolutely part of it."}
{"id": "914361480", "date": "2020-09-18", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 26, "text": "You know, you've talked about carrying around a lot of anger over the years, and I can only imagine how angry you would be when your own grandfather refused to even meet you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So my mother had been married right out of college to her first husband, who is white. And my dad was the consummate professional. He sort of finished her divorce proceedings, and she left his offic"}
{"id": "914361480", "date": "2020-09-18", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 27, "text": "...Because you were Black.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "914361480", "date": "2020-09-18", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 28, "text": "Yeah. I mean, it's one thing not to get the love that you want from a relative; it's another thing to be completely rejected and making a conscious decision to never even meet you. I mean, that's just - that's horrible.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. People think that the things that happen are just part of their lives. You don't really think of how it affects you at the time. You think that this is something that just happened, and I've dea"}
{"id": "914361480", "date": "2020-09-18", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 29, "text": "Yeah. How old were you when your parents divorced?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's - I was lucky to - I was raised in a home full of love. My dad and my mother had their own issues, but they never made me feel unloved. And so I think that that wa"}
{"id": "914361480", "date": "2020-09-18", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 30, "text": "One of your personal essays is about how you donated a kidney to your father in 2009, when your father was living in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. I've asked myself what would I do in a situation like that, and I don't know. Did he ask you, or did you just volunteer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was 14, the summer between my freshman and sophomore year of high school."}
{"id": "914361480", "date": "2020-09-18", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 31, "text": "What's it like to see your father and know that not only did he co-create you, but you live inside of him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I volunteered initially, but he rejected it initially. As soon as he told us that he was on dialysis and needed a kidney transplant, I said to him, I'll volunteer a kidney to you, please, and he said "}
{"id": "914361480", "date": "2020-09-18", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 32, "text": "You know, in your essay about your mother and her cancer diagnosis, you write, (reading) the world takes from us relentlessly. It takes our friends and first loves. It takes our parents. It takes our faith. It takes our dignity. It takes our passion. It takes our health. It takes our honesty, and it takes our credulity. To lose so much and still hold on to yourself is perhaps the most complicated task human beings are asked to perform. And, you know, reading that now, during the COVID pandemic, I think that just has a very special resonance now. And I'm wondering what the pandemic has been like for you so far, how you're finding a way to get by...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's - well, it felt like I was giving back. It felt like that was why it wasn't really a question. That's why I volunteered immediately, is because it felt like he'd given me life. He had suppo"}
{"id": "914361480", "date": "2020-09-18", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 33, "text": "...And, you know, how you're dealing with anxiety and fear while also trying to do your work, how vulnerable you do or don't feel.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's - well, it felt like I was giving back. It felt like that was why it wasn't really a question. That's why I volunteered immediately, is because it felt like he'd given me life. He had suppo"}
{"id": "914361480", "date": "2020-09-18", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 34, "text": "Well, I want to get back to very good news, which is that you're nominated for an Emmy for writing an episode of \"Watchmen,\" and the show's nominated for 26 Emmys. So that's a lot to celebrate. This isn't an easy time to celebrate because of the general mood. So how did you celebrate the nomination?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I go to a whole lot of therapy. That's also been helping me."}
{"id": "914361480", "date": "2020-09-18", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 35, "text": "Sounds great, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had some champagne and was in bed by 9:30 that night. That was..."}
{"id": "914361480", "date": "2020-09-18", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 36, "text": "Good luck to you at the Emmys.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think people want to see Regina King in her, like, beautiful gown, as well they should. But so I don't know if me and the fellow writers are going to get much screen time. So - but, you know, that's"}
{"id": "914361480", "date": "2020-09-18", "guest": "Cord Jefferson", "title": "Emmy-Nominated 'Watchmen' Writer Explores Generational Trauma And Racism", "question_index": 37, "text": "It's been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much. I really appreciate it."}
{"id": "915210307", "date": "2020-09-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "Jeffrey Toobin On 'Tough As Nails' Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg", "question_index": 0, "text": "Ruth Bader Ginsburg, before even getting to the Supreme Court, made her reputation litigating cases pertaining to equal rights for women. Would you just run through what some of those important cases were?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in today for Terry Gross. We begin today's show by remembering Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, who died Friday at her home in Washington at the age of 87"}
{"id": "915210307", "date": "2020-09-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "Jeffrey Toobin On 'Tough As Nails' Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg", "question_index": 1, "text": "You describe her approach in litigating women's rights as incremental, case by case, as opposed to one sweeping case that would say women have to be treated equally in everything, and therefore a lot of laws will just have to be rewritten.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's important to remember where the law was before Ginsburg started taking these cases in the 1970s. In the 1960s, even the so-called liberal Warren court was happy to approve laws that treated"}
{"id": "915210307", "date": "2020-09-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "Jeffrey Toobin On 'Tough As Nails' Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg", "question_index": 2, "text": "And she thought that she'd make more progress this way? I mean, was that a practical decision or just a belief that every law should be taken on its own terms?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. And that's very significant, particularly when you start looking at her judicial career because Ginsburg is a methodical person, and she understood that the best way to win at the Suprem"}
{"id": "915210307", "date": "2020-09-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "Jeffrey Toobin On 'Tough As Nails' Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg", "question_index": 3, "text": "So, you know, we've been talking about her incremental approach as a litigator to women's rights. She gave a lecture in 1992 that you write about. It's called \"The Madison Lecture,\" which was delivered at the NYU Law School. And talk about this lecture and what it revealed about her legal philosophy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's an interesting question, and I'm not sure I know the ultimate answer to that. But I think she clearly thought as a litigation strategy that when you were dealing with a court of nine men, which"}
{"id": "915210307", "date": "2020-09-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "Jeffrey Toobin On 'Tough As Nails' Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg", "question_index": 4, "text": "And she wanted the legalization of abortion to be - she would have preferred that the legalization of abortion be a dialogue with legislators. What did she mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the great women's rights landmark that Justice Ginsburg did not argue as a lawyer was Roe v. Wade, the abortion rights case. And that case was litigated and decided very differently from the way"}
{"id": "915210307", "date": "2020-09-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "Jeffrey Toobin On 'Tough As Nails' Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg", "question_index": 5, "text": "So in talking about Justice Ginsburg's idea that the judiciary should be in dialogue with the legislature, you know, with lawmakers, she kind of demonstrated that when she wrote the dissenting opinion in the Lilly Ledbetter case that - so why don't you just briefly describe her dissent and the argument that she made from bench kind of directly addressing legislators.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What she meant is that she thinks that political change in the United States by and large comes from the political branches of government, that real change, substantive change that's enduring needs to"}
{"id": "915210307", "date": "2020-09-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "Jeffrey Toobin On 'Tough As Nails' Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg", "question_index": 6, "text": "You know, in reading your profile of Ruth Bader Ginsburg, I was thinking about the interview I just did with Justice Sandra Day O'Connor. So having, you know, read your article,", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was - it's really an amazing story about the power of a dissent in the Supreme Court because she lost the Lilly Ledbetter case. Lilly Ledbetter was a woman who worked at a Goodyear factory in Alaba"}
{"id": "915210307", "date": "2020-09-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "Jeffrey Toobin On 'Tough As Nails' Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg", "question_index": 7, "text": "your profile of Ruth Bader Ginsburg, on the same day that I interviewed Justice Sandra Day O'Connor, I found them such interesting contrasts. You know, Ginsburg devotes so much of her judicial career litigating cases, asking for equal rights, for equality for women. And both Ginsburg and O'Connor faced a lot of discrimination when they were starting off in their legal career. They both found it very difficult to get jobs. And Sandra Day O'Connor talked about how when she got out of law school, 40 law firms or more than 40 law firms turned her down for an interview. And several of them said we don't hire women...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was - it's really an amazing story about the power of a dissent in the Supreme Court because she lost the Lilly Ledbetter case. Lilly Ledbetter was a woman who worked at a Goodyear factory in Alaba"}
{"id": "915210307", "date": "2020-09-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "Jeffrey Toobin On 'Tough As Nails' Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg", "question_index": 8, "text": "...Something that wouldn't even be legal to say today. But when I asked her if those - when I asked Justice O'Connor if those kinds of, you know, discriminatory experiences affected her thinking as, you know, as the first woman justice, Supreme Court justice, she said, well, I can't really answer that. That's the kind of question you'll have to", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "915210307", "date": "2020-09-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "Jeffrey Toobin On 'Tough As Nails' Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg", "question_index": 9, "text": "try to answer. And she also said she didn't really have to deal with a lot of issues directly related to that. Whereas, it seems like with Ginsburg, the discrimination that she faced and her kind of, you know, life's work are so connected.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "915210307", "date": "2020-09-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "Jeffrey Toobin On 'Tough As Nails' Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg", "question_index": 10, "text": "You reprint a letter that she gave you that her husband wrote after he was diagnosed with cancer, 10 days before he died. I want you to describe the backstory to this note. And then I'm going to ask you to read it for us.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Today we're remembering Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg who died Friday at the age of 87. We're listening to the interview Terry Gross recorded in 2013 with New Yorker sta"}
{"id": "915210307", "date": "2020-09-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "Jeffrey Toobin On 'Tough As Nails' Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg", "question_index": 11, "text": "So I want you to read the note...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my piece in The New Yorker - somewhat to my surprise - turned out to be in part judicial biography and in part love story. This was one of the great marriages I have ever witnessed in person or,"}
{"id": "915210307", "date": "2020-09-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "Jeffrey Toobin On 'Tough As Nails' Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg", "question_index": 12, "text": "...That her husband left for her.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, the letter. OK. So..."}
{"id": "915210307", "date": "2020-09-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "Jeffrey Toobin On 'Tough As Nails' Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg", "question_index": 13, "text": "That's a really beautiful letter. And it just made me think about, like - and I don't know the answers to any of this - you know, like why did he leave a letter and not tell her? Probably - you know, in my mind I'm thinking he didn't want to have a conversation about it. He just wanted to let her know in as clear a way as possible. But he's also - and this is amazing for the husband of a Supreme Court justice. He seems to be proposing the possibility of him taking his life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) My dearest Ruth, you are the only person I have loved in my life - setting aside, a bit, parents and kids and their kids. And I have admired and loved you almost since the day we first met a"}
{"id": "915210307", "date": "2020-09-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "Jeffrey Toobin On 'Tough As Nails' Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. And, you know, even though it is written with so much love, there is a lawyer's precision to it as well, where he is proposing various possibilities, not deciding the issue. And, you know,"}
{"id": "915210307", "date": "2020-09-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "Jeffrey Toobin On 'Tough As Nails' Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg", "question_index": 15, "text": "But, you know, the letter also seems to me to be saying - if he's proposing the possibility of terminating his life, he's also saying it's my decision, it's not yours.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, you know, in those two little words, a bit, there is a lifetime of complexity you can see."}
{"id": "915210307", "date": "2020-09-21", "guest": "Jeffrey Toobin", "title": "Jeffrey Toobin On 'Tough As Nails' Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg", "question_index": 16, "text": "And it's my responsibility. It's not yours. Like, the responsibility is not on your shoulders.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, you know, it just shows, also, that..."}
{"id": "915224016", "date": "2020-09-21", "guest": "Oliver Sacks", "title": "Neurologist Oliver Sacks On The Hallucination That Saved His Life", "question_index": 0, "text": "So at the beginning of your chapter about your own experimentation with altered states, you write, every culture has found chemical means of transcendence. At some point, the use of such intoxicants becomes institutionalized at a magical or sacramental level. What are you thinking of there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's good to be with you again."}
{"id": "915224016", "date": "2020-09-21", "guest": "Oliver Sacks", "title": "Neurologist Oliver Sacks On The Hallucination That Saved His Life", "question_index": 1, "text": "And you write that some drugs, like hallucinogenic drugs, promise transcendence on demand. Is that why you wanted to experiment with them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was thinking of peyote ceremonies with Native Americans, but similar ceremonies in Mexico with morning glory seeds - ololiuqui, similar ceremonies in Central America with magic mushrooms, simi"}
{"id": "915224016", "date": "2020-09-21", "guest": "Oliver Sacks", "title": "Neurologist Oliver Sacks On The Hallucination That Saved His Life", "question_index": 2, "text": "What was the first time you tried a drug that induced perceptual distortions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it's one of the reasons. It's probably a little too high-sounding for all of my reasons. I mean, I think I sometimes just wanted pleasure. I wanted to see a visually and perhaps musicall"}
{"id": "915224016", "date": "2020-09-21", "guest": "Oliver Sacks", "title": "Neurologist Oliver Sacks On The Hallucination That Saved His Life", "question_index": 3, "text": "So you started taking LSD in 1964, and you write that you took mind-altering drugs every weekend for a while. Give us a sense of one of the better experiences that you had that made you want to keep using it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was in 1963. And I was in Los Angeles, at UCLA, doing a residency in neurology, but I was also much on the beach, on Venice Beach and Muscle Beach. And there, there was quite a drug culture"}
{"id": "915224016", "date": "2020-09-21", "guest": "Oliver Sacks", "title": "Neurologist Oliver Sacks On The Hallucination That Saved His Life", "question_index": 4, "text": "So give us an example of a really bad time that you had on a hallucinogenic drug", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, a particular experience was with a color. I had been reading about the color indigo, how it had been introduced into the spectrum by Newton rather late, and it seemed no two people quite agreed "}
{"id": "915224016", "date": "2020-09-21", "guest": "Oliver Sacks", "title": "Neurologist Oliver Sacks On The Hallucination That Saved His Life", "question_index": 5, "text": "Was it helpful while you were having these nightmarish hallucinations, because of withdrawal from the medicine that you were taking, to know that they were medically induced hallucinations, that you weren't losing your mind and that this was going to end?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think the worst time was also a rather puzzling time. It was in '65. I was new to New York. I was sleeping very badly. I was taking ever-increasing doses of a sleeping medication called chlora"}
{"id": "915224016", "date": "2020-09-21", "guest": "Oliver Sacks", "title": "Neurologist Oliver Sacks On The Hallucination That Saved His Life", "question_index": 6, "text": "As a neurologist, what did you learn from that experience?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, absolutely. When I realized it was medication and not madness, that was a relief so huge that I felt I could sit through the rest of it."}
{"id": "915224016", "date": "2020-09-21", "guest": "Oliver Sacks", "title": "Neurologist Oliver Sacks On The Hallucination That Saved His Life", "question_index": 7, "text": "So you know how some people say the human brain is wired for God, you know, wired to...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview Terry recorded in 2012 with the late neurologist Oliver Sacks after the publication of his book \"Hallucinations.\" A new documentary about Sacks start"}
{"id": "915224016", "date": "2020-09-21", "guest": "Oliver Sacks", "title": "Neurologist Oliver Sacks On The Hallucination That Saved His Life", "question_index": 8, "text": "...To have religion. What's your take on that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Uh-huh."}
{"id": "915224016", "date": "2020-09-21", "guest": "Oliver Sacks", "title": "Neurologist Oliver Sacks On The Hallucination That Saved His Life", "question_index": 9, "text": "But it's interesting how often those visions - if we want to call it that - come from something that nowadays would be diagnosed as a disorder and, in fact, are disorders like epilepsy or schizophrenia.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm very intrigued by the relationship between drugs and religion and hallucination and religion. There's a long chapter on epilepsy, which at one time was called the sacred disease, although Hippocra"}
{"id": "915224016", "date": "2020-09-21", "guest": "Oliver Sacks", "title": "Neurologist Oliver Sacks On The Hallucination That Saved His Life", "question_index": 10, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is neurologist Dr. Oliver Sacks. His new book is called \"Hallucinations,\" and it's about medically induced hallucinations, naturally occurring hallucinations, like between waking and sleeping, and hallucinations that are side effects of drugs, hallucinations that are caused by various medical conditions.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Well, certainly, I think there have probably always been visions and voices. And these were variously ascribed to the divine or the demonic or the Muses. The medicalization of hallucinations real"}
{"id": "915224016", "date": "2020-09-21", "guest": "Oliver Sacks", "title": "Neurologist Oliver Sacks On The Hallucination That Saved His Life", "question_index": 11, "text": "Yes. I'm glad you mentioned bereavement. And that is such a common form of hallucination, where, you know, you've lost somebody who you love and you think you've seen them or heard them say something. And when that happens, I think it's fair to say it feels like a visitation. How would you describe that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Can I add to your list? Hallucinations which are caused by real-life experiences, such as bereavement."}
{"id": "915224016", "date": "2020-09-21", "guest": "Oliver Sacks", "title": "Neurologist Oliver Sacks On The Hallucination That Saved His Life", "question_index": 12, "text": "How, as a neurologist, would you interpret those hallucinations?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, someone dies. There's a hole in your life. And that hole can be briefly filled, I think, by a hallucination. Typically, the bereavement hallucinations - which are common; something like 40"}
{"id": "915224016", "date": "2020-09-21", "guest": "Oliver Sacks", "title": "Neurologist Oliver Sacks On The Hallucination That Saved His Life", "question_index": 13, "text": "I'm just curious. Like how - how do you do functional brain imagery of somebody who has had a hallucination? I mean, they're probably not hooked up to the FMRI when they're feeling like they had this visitation from a lost loved one.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, with any hallucinations, if you can, say, do functional brain imagery while they're going on, you will find that the parts of the brain usually involved in seeing or hearing - in perception - ar"}
{"id": "915224016", "date": "2020-09-21", "guest": "Oliver Sacks", "title": "Neurologist Oliver Sacks On The Hallucination That Saved His Life", "question_index": 14, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there, it will be difficult, because hallucinations like this are rare and sporadic and unpredictable. But there are other people - and I am especially interested in this, because I've worked in"}
{"id": "915224016", "date": "2020-09-21", "guest": "Oliver Sacks", "title": "Neurologist Oliver Sacks On The Hallucination That Saved His Life", "question_index": 15, "text": "You write in your book \"Hallucinations\" about an auditory hallucination you had that really might have saved your life. You were mountain climbing, and you had injured your foot or your leg. And part of you just wanted to just, like, slow down, sleep. But then you heard a voice, which said what?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're listening back to an interview with neurologist Oliver Sacks, who died in 2015. A new documentary about Sacks starts streaming Wednesday through the Film Forum and Kino Marque"}
{"id": "915224016", "date": "2020-09-21", "guest": "Oliver Sacks", "title": "Neurologist Oliver Sacks On The Hallucination That Saved His Life", "question_index": 16, "text": "And so you kept going in spite of the horrible shape that your leg and knee was in.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the impulse to sleep - I'd torn off most of the thigh muscles and the knee was dislocating backwards. And at one point I got quite shocked and thought it'd be nice to have a little sleep. And th"}
{"id": "915224016", "date": "2020-09-21", "guest": "Oliver Sacks", "title": "Neurologist Oliver Sacks On The Hallucination That Saved His Life", "question_index": 17, "text": "Whose voice did you hear? Was it your voice, a stranger's voice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I was sort of lowering myself down with my arms. I had splinted the leg as best I could with an umbrella stick and my anorak, which I tore in two. Incidentally, I thought that was going to be th"}
{"id": "915224016", "date": "2020-09-21", "guest": "Oliver Sacks", "title": "Neurologist Oliver Sacks On The Hallucination That Saved His Life", "question_index": 18, "text": "It seems to me you've had a very neurologically eventful life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not my voice. I often hear my voice. I am always sort of cursing or muttering to myself. But this was a very clear, assured voice, not a voice I recognized but a voice I trusted, which I suppose I rea"}
{"id": "915224016", "date": "2020-09-21", "guest": "Oliver Sacks", "title": "Neurologist Oliver Sacks On The Hallucination That Saved His Life", "question_index": 19, "text": "Honestly, like you've had migraines from like the age of four and, you know, you heard the voice when you were mountain climbing and would've died had you not kept walking in spite of a severe leg injury. You've had spinal pain and, you know, wanted to understand the, you know, nerve causes of that. You've had visual disorders. And it just seems like you have experienced so much, which I know has been useful to you as a doctor, but it seems like a lot for one person to go through.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not my voice. I often hear my voice. I am always sort of cursing or muttering to myself. But this was a very clear, assured voice, not a voice I recognized but a voice I trusted, which I suppose I rea"}
{"id": "915224016", "date": "2020-09-21", "guest": "Oliver Sacks", "title": "Neurologist Oliver Sacks On The Hallucination That Saved His Life", "question_index": 20, "text": "You've lost your sight in one eye because of cancer, and that started out with all kinds of distortions.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I..."}
{"id": "915224016", "date": "2020-09-21", "guest": "Oliver Sacks", "title": "Neurologist Oliver Sacks On The Hallucination That Saved His Life", "question_index": 21, "text": "Well, Dr. Sacks, it's just such a pleasure to talk with you. You're always so interesting. I thank you so much for coming back to our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Well, it has been a lot in a way, but I feel I'm lucky. I'm close to 80, and I'm still in fairly good shape, especially if I can go swimming. I limp a bit on land, but I'm powerful in the water. "}
{"id": "915224016", "date": "2020-09-21", "guest": "Oliver Sacks", "title": "Neurologist Oliver Sacks On The Hallucination That Saved His Life", "question_index": 22, "text": "You're great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Although I'm incorrigible."}
{"id": "916506941", "date": "2020-09-24", "guest": "Unidentified Choir", "title": "Met Music Director Yannick N\u00e9zet-S\u00e9guin On Hope, Suffering And Verdi's 'Requiem'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Yannick, it is so good to speak with you again. I just want to say, it's a magnificent performance of Verdi's \"Requiem,\" and it's such a really awe-inspiring piece. And it seems so fitting to hear a requiem now when every day there's a pandemic death count. But when you conducted this, it was in 2012, and it was a celebratory performance. It was your first performance with the Philadelphia Orchestra as its music director. Why did you choose to make this your inaugural piece?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing in Latin)."}
{"id": "916506941", "date": "2020-09-24", "guest": "Unidentified Choir", "title": "Met Music Director Yannick N\u00e9zet-S\u00e9guin On Hope, Suffering And Verdi's 'Requiem'", "question_index": 1, "text": "So I want to talk to you about a specific part of the piece, and it's the \"Dies Irae.\" It's around 10 minutes in. I don't know if you'd officially call it the second movement or not. But this is the day of wrath section, and I want to quote a few of the lines. (Reading) The day of wrath, that day will dissolve the world in ashes. How great will be the terror when the judge comes who will smash everything completely? The trumpet scattering a marvelous sound through the tombs of every land will gather all before the throne. And, like, my goodness", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Terry, as you just said, this is a piece that's very awe-inspiring, but also it's a piece that is very deep and has a lot of content which is not necessarily uplifting, in a way, immediately bec"}
{"id": "916506941", "date": "2020-09-24", "guest": "Unidentified Choir", "title": "Met Music Director Yannick N\u00e9zet-S\u00e9guin On Hope, Suffering And Verdi's 'Requiem'", "question_index": 2, "text": ". And, meanwhile, what's happening musically is that this huge chorus is singing this descending line, and there's a bass drum marching in the background. And it's just chilling to hear this, as all the singers are basically pleading for mercy on Judgment Day. Like, I find this musical passage just so - it sends chills down my spine. What is happening musically that so powerfully conveys the text?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Terry, as you just said, this is a piece that's very awe-inspiring, but also it's a piece that is very deep and has a lot of content which is not necessarily uplifting, in a way, immediately bec"}
{"id": "916506941", "date": "2020-09-24", "guest": "Unidentified Choir", "title": "Met Music Director Yannick N\u00e9zet-S\u00e9guin On Hope, Suffering And Verdi's 'Requiem'", "question_index": 3, "text": "And that descending line with the orchestra - is there something special that's happening harmonically to give this sense of anguish and pleading...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I couldn't agree more with you. This text is very powerful. But I think it's unique in the history of music to have been able to capture all of these elements, musically, so powerfully. And that"}
{"id": "916506941", "date": "2020-09-24", "guest": "Unidentified Choir", "title": "Met Music Director Yannick N\u00e9zet-S\u00e9guin On Hope, Suffering And Verdi's 'Requiem'", "question_index": 4, "text": "...And doom?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "916506941", "date": "2020-09-24", "guest": "Unidentified Choir", "title": "Met Music Director Yannick N\u00e9zet-S\u00e9guin On Hope, Suffering And Verdi's 'Requiem'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Well, am I right in saying that when you were a child - that you sang in the choir, doing Verdi's \"Requiem?\" How old were you?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Our guest is Yannick Nezet-Seguin, the music director and conductor of the Metropolitan Opera in New York and the Philadelphia Orchestra. This July his inaugural performance as musi"}
{"id": "916506941", "date": "2020-09-24", "guest": "Unidentified Choir", "title": "Met Music Director Yannick N\u00e9zet-S\u00e9guin On Hope, Suffering And Verdi's 'Requiem'", "question_index": 6, "text": "What did it mean to you when you were 15 compared to what it means to you now? I mean, this is a piece about the dread of eternal damnation versus the possibility of eternal life. So you have the two biggest extremes, and you have really soft and really just booming passages. And it's such an emotional work. So when you were 15 and still not very experienced in the world, what did this music and the power mean to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the first time I sang that requiem, I must have been 15 or 16. So I sang it a couple of times as a member of the choir."}
{"id": "916506941", "date": "2020-09-24", "guest": "Unidentified Choir", "title": "Met Music Director Yannick N\u00e9zet-S\u00e9guin On Hope, Suffering And Verdi's 'Requiem'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Verdi himself was agnostic. And it's amazing to me that he'd write such a powerful, deeply felt requiem when he wasn't Catholic. He was agnostic. And I'm wondering, Yannick, getting back to the fact that you sang this when you were 15, at what point in your own relationship to Catholicism were you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think when I was - as far as I remember, when I was a teenager, what I was very interested in was from the viewpoint of a music student or scholar. Well, actually, I was trying to analyze more the e"}
{"id": "916506941", "date": "2020-09-24", "guest": "Unidentified Choir", "title": "Met Music Director Yannick N\u00e9zet-S\u00e9guin On Hope, Suffering And Verdi's 'Requiem'", "question_index": 8, "text": "You know, you talked about this requiem as being - like, your introduction to it, when you were 15 and singing, that it was a transition point for you from believing in music - believing in religion to believing in music. Did you ever have the fear of eternal hell, the fear of Judgment Day and eternal flames, that this piece - especially the \"Dies Irae\" - expresses? Did you live with that?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross, back with her interview with conductor Yannick Nezet-Seguin. Yannick is the young, charismatic music director of both New York's Metropolitan Op"}
{"id": "916506941", "date": "2020-09-24", "guest": "Unidentified Choir", "title": "Met Music Director Yannick N\u00e9zet-S\u00e9guin On Hope, Suffering And Verdi's 'Requiem'", "question_index": 9, "text": "The suffering?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Interestingly, not really. Or I'm not saying not at all, but this is not the focus of how I conceived and still conceive religion or faith. The expression of it - or maybe that's now the Yannick, a 45"}
{"id": "916506941", "date": "2020-09-24", "guest": "Unidentified Choir", "title": "Met Music Director Yannick N\u00e9zet-S\u00e9guin On Hope, Suffering And Verdi's 'Requiem'", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Interestingly, not really. Or I'm not saying not at all, but this is not the focus of how I conceived and still conceive religion or faith. The expression of it - or maybe that's now the Yannick, a 45"}
{"id": "916506941", "date": "2020-09-24", "guest": "Unidentified Choir", "title": "Met Music Director Yannick N\u00e9zet-S\u00e9guin On Hope, Suffering And Verdi's 'Requiem'", "question_index": 11, "text": "When you sang it during various stages of your life, what were the parts, vocally, that were the most just fulfilling and beautiful or awesome, like in the sense of awe-inspiring, to sing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. It's - yeah, it's all the suffering. It's all the danger. It's all the unknown. It's all that we are at the mercy of always something greater than us. And the recent months have proven it, you "}
{"id": "916506941", "date": "2020-09-24", "guest": "Unidentified Choir", "title": "Met Music Director Yannick N\u00e9zet-S\u00e9guin On Hope, Suffering And Verdi's 'Requiem'", "question_index": 12, "text": "What are those moments?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, actually, maybe the part as a singer which I found always the most touching and fulfilling is \"Lacrymosa.\" So that's at the very end of that second movement, you said, which is a sequence, which i"}
{"id": "916506941", "date": "2020-09-24", "guest": "Unidentified Choir", "title": "Met Music Director Yannick N\u00e9zet-S\u00e9guin On Hope, Suffering And Verdi's 'Requiem'", "question_index": 13, "text": "You're in Montreal as we speak, which is a lot safer than the U.S. is right now in terms of the virus. Since death is something you've thought about a lot over the years since childhood, perhaps more than a lot of other people, I'm wondering how the presence of death right now and hearing the death numbers every day is affecting you. Because I'm sure you're not only thinking about yourself but of people who you love in Montreal and in Philadelphia and in New York where you conduct The Metropolitan Opera and around the world because the singers from The Met come from around the world. And you've conducted orchestras - so you have friends around the world. And so what is it like for you now to be living in the presence of death?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If you're just joining us our guest is Yannick Nezet-Seguin the music director and conductor of The Metropolitan Opera in New York and The Philadelphia Orchestra. His inaugural performance as music di"}
{"id": "916506941", "date": "2020-09-24", "guest": "Unidentified Choir", "title": "Met Music Director Yannick N\u00e9zet-S\u00e9guin On Hope, Suffering And Verdi's 'Requiem'", "question_index": 14, "text": "I'm so sorry.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "First, I have to say that, yes, I am lucky to be in Montreal near my family, but, you know, even though when you count - maybe when we see those numbers, we can see, oh, some parts of the world are sa"}
{"id": "916506941", "date": "2020-09-24", "guest": "Unidentified Choir", "title": "Met Music Director Yannick N\u00e9zet-S\u00e9guin On Hope, Suffering And Verdi's 'Requiem'", "question_index": 15, "text": "I know, and I also feel that music allows us to experience our feelings more deeply and while doing that to affirm what we're feeling because the orchestra is feeling it. And it's that sense of connection that you're talking about.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...The Met Opera. We lost one member of the viola section in The Met Orchestra, and we lost one assistant conductor who was one of our most wonderful colleagues in the music staff. So it became very r"}
{"id": "916506941", "date": "2020-09-24", "guest": "Unidentified Choir", "title": "Met Music Director Yannick N\u00e9zet-S\u00e9guin On Hope, Suffering And Verdi's 'Requiem'", "question_index": 16, "text": "I want to get back to the Verdi \"Requiem.\" At the end of the performance, your inaugural performance as music director of the Philadelphia Orchestra, when the piece ends, your arms stay raised and I timed it. They stay raised for a really long time. It's 26 seconds. And that's - you know, there's usually, like, time for the notes to decay in the, you know, performing hall and, you know, a bit of silence at the end for reflection. But 26 seconds is actually a really long time. And I was thinking that was really intentional. This is such a powerful piece that you probably really wanted time for the audience to just sit with the silence and just reflect on what they heard and what they felt. And I'm wondering, like, how do you know how long you want the audience to sit with the silence? Are you just feeling it? Are you counting in your mind?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, when we watch this Verdi \"Requiem,\" you know, there were so many people on stage. And at the moment, this is not possible to do. But when you look closer, you watch this chorus, amazing ch"}
{"id": "916506941", "date": "2020-09-24", "guest": "Unidentified Choir", "title": "Met Music Director Yannick N\u00e9zet-S\u00e9guin On Hope, Suffering And Verdi's 'Requiem'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yannick, I love hearing you talk about music. Thank you so much for talking to us today. And I really wish you and everyone you love and everyone you make music with, I wish them well. And thank you so much for your music and your thoughts.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's really about the feeling. It's about - you said it all. I think, you know, it's really about reflecting after what we just heard, but it's also about the power of silence. You know, the m"}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Gloria Steinem, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, editor of the website TV Worth Watching, sitting in for Terry Gross. Our guest today is Gloria Steinem, who is having quite a year being portrayed on film and T"}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 1, "text": "You had already worked in - for several magazines as a journalist. Why did you think it was important to have a magazine written by and devoted to women?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 2, "text": "Did you find, too, that a lot of male editors thought that it was just too specialized, too narrow to write about issues like abortion or equality for women - you know, 'cause all of their readers wouldn't be interested in it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first because even before I began to think about anything that might be called feminism or to question the structures that women encountered, I and lots of women could not write about political "}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Well, that was pretty premature.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Ever since the - well, actually, the first story that I know of - cover story pronouncing the women's movement over was from 1969, before the magazine ever started."}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 4, "text": "What did you think the state of feminist coverage was in the mainstream media in the early '70s and late '60s?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 5, "text": "I think that women's organizations and publications function on two levels, especially at the beginning. One was that the content was going to be oriented toward women, and the other was this kind of utopian sense that with women at the controls, it was going to have a different structure, a different sense of power and hierarchy than their male-run counterparts had. Did that happen at Ms. magazine? Did you have a sense of, you know, what the utopian", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Right? But nonetheless, he picked up - he couldn't resist the alliteration. And that was symbolic of the kind of of ridicule, really."}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 6, "text": "women's-run magazine was going to be like? And I'm talking about...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Right? But nonetheless, he picked up - he couldn't resist the alliteration. And that was symbolic of the kind of of ridicule, really."}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 7, "text": "...The power structure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We did. And..."}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Did you go through this phenomenon that - when you formed this magazine with other women - that male colleagues of yours, male journalists, assumed that what you did all day was sit around and talk about men", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We did. But it wasn't totally - it was somewhat wrong but not totally wrong. For instance, when we started out - I mean, an example of our naivete was that we sat around - there were eight of us. And "}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 9, "text": "- complain bitterly about men?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We did. But it wasn't totally - it was somewhat wrong but not totally wrong. For instance, when we started out - I mean, an example of our naivete was that we sat around - there were eight of us. And "}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, you're right. You're right. I hadn't thought about that in a long time, but you're completely right. I remember somebody saying to me at one of the networks - CBS, I think - that whenever three "}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 11, "text": "One of the early sayings in the women's movement was the personal is political. And I wonder if that still has the same resonance for you now that it did in the late '60s.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I think that's true. You know, it's so oddly threatening for a few women to be together. I do think that that's diminished a lot."}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 12, "text": "How is it getting to you emotionally now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It really does. I think in some ways, we're only - you know how you learn something intellectually before it gets to you emotionally sometimes? I think it's just getting to us emotionally now."}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I guess - I mean, this may sound strange, but I'm just beginning to realize that I need to do some of the things that I have been saying should be done. In other words, I've been telling women, "}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Your grandmother was a suffragist and a delegate to a big international convention back in 1908. I wonder if that had any effect on you at all 'cause, I should point out, she's on your father's side. And I believe he left your mother and you when you were pretty young. So was there any feminist legacy passed on from her for the family?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, at no point have I had enough money to last more than a month or two, I don' think because I was just having a much better time giving it away. But also - which is, I think, a positive reason "}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 15, "text": "What - were they embarrassed by it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They sort of conveniently forgot that part."}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 16, "text": "You said that this worried you in a way 'cause it meant that other families or other women can forget what happened before. Is that what you're afraid is happening in the, quote, \"post-feminist period?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. They - it wasn't conscious on their parts exactly. But it was - I think it just wasn't socially good to have done this. So they just - they didn't exactly conceal it, but they didn't tal"}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 17, "text": "No, I don't think - I mean, that only began to happen after a century. And we're only, you know, 25 years or so into this, and it is not post-feminist. No matter what the New York Times says, it's just that young women - if the young women have a problem, it's only that they think there's no problem. And of course, they will, you know, get educated by the world and by, you know, what they meet in the labor force and when they have children and so on.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. They - it wasn't conscious on their parts exactly. But it was - I think it just wasn't socially good to have done this. So they just - they didn't exactly conceal it, but they didn't tal"}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 18, "text": "Gloria Steinem, welcome back to FRESH AIR. I want you to start by reading the dedication of your new book.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. With \"The Glorias,\" a new movie based on the life of feminist activist Gloria Steinem, premiering next Wednesday on Amazon Prime, we're listening back to some of Terry's interviews "}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 19, "text": "Thank you for reading that dedication to your new book. When did you first speak about your abortion?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) This book is dedicated to Dr. John Sharpe of London, who in 1957, a decade before physicians in England could legally perform an abortion for any reason other than the health of the woman, t"}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 20, "text": "So is this book, this dedication, the first time you mentioned the doctor's name who performed your illegal abortion in England?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let's hear from women who have actually had this experience. So I sat there as a reporter for New York magazine, listening to women tell their stories, you know, that were tragic and ludicrous and eve"}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 21, "text": "And why you decide - why did you decide it was OK now to mention his name?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is the first time I mentioned his name."}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Do you often wonder what your life would have been like had you not had the abortion and had you had a child at that age?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first of all, he was quite old at the time, so he clearly could no longer be alive, no matter what. Secondly, the laws have changed. Our understanding has - it just seemed to me that it was time"}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Well, let me stop you right there. Did you throw yourself down stairs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know, all kinds of things in the hope that's..."}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Did you hurt yourself throwing yourself down the stairs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "person you can imagine, so - physically speaking. But I did. I kept thinking that somehow, you know, I could - I don't know what I thought. I was desperate. I really was desperate because, you know, I"}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. You know, you're quite resilient at 22."}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 26, "text": "You spent half of your life on the road. You're still on the road a lot. You grew up on the road. Let's talk a little bit about your very atypical childhood. Your mother was often incapacitated by depression. Can we call it depression?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't, no."}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 27, "text": "Your father, until you were 10, during the summer ran a dance pavilion that he created. Would you describe what your father did summers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "you know, because I just think her spirit was broken."}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 28, "text": "So what was it about being there or about being with your father that broke your mother's spirit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And so we would get some famous bands sometimes - Wayne King and Joe Venuti, I mean, names I don't know if people know anymore. And this was his dream. And he - you know, he created a kind of magica"}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 29, "text": "So getting back to this life that you had as a child, your mother's spirit was broken, was often hard for her to get out of bed. Your father created this, you know, like, wonderful dance-pavilion summer. But then when the summer was over, the family would move into a van and drive South and basically live - when I say van, I should say trailer, I suppose. And then the family would live in the trailer for the duration until the following summer. You write that you never started out with enough money to complete the trip. Your father would buy antiques and then sell them to antique dealers. You know, buy them at country auctions and then sell them to antique dealers at higher prices to fund your trip south. How did you like being itinerant like that?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli in for Terry Gross back with more of Terry's 2015 interview with author and feminist activist Gloria Steinem. At the time of this interview, she had just publish"}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 30, "text": "So you weren't in school for those years that your family was on the road. How did you learn to read and do basic math?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I suppose that two things happen at once when you're a child. One is that you just accept as normal whatever is around you. And the other is that you go to the movies, and you see kids or your classma"}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 31, "text": "Was it legal for you to not be in school?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I learned to read just because my family had lots and lots of books, especially my mother - you know, read all the time. My memory is that I learned how to read from ketchup bottles and labels and"}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 32, "text": "How did your father's sense of money, that you could start this trip without having enough money to complete it and just kind of buy and sell things to fund the family - how did that affect your idea of money and the security that you need or don't need for money?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Teaching in order to make money to finish college herself. I don't know how impressive it would have been. But anyway, no. But no truant officer ever showed up."}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 33, "text": "Your parents separated when you were 10 in 1944. And you had to take on a lot of responsibility for your mother at a young age. What were some of the things you had to do for her when you were still a child yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Never to have a real salary."}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 34, "text": "She was called the crazy lady of the neighborhood once you had a neighborhood. What was your reaction to that? And did it make you think of her differently than you did before?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it depended on - you know, on the ups and downs of her moods. But I would make her meals or the child's idea of a meal. And I kind of always worried about what I would find when I came home from"}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Are you still convinced that your mother was suffering from patriarchy as opposed to a mental illness of some sort? Bipolar, depression....", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I don't - it didn't make me think of her differently. She was someone - how can I say? I mean, she was a loving, wonderful woman who recited poetry by heart and was, you know, certainly super lovi"}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 36, "text": "During the 10 years that your family was on the road, did you have any friends?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I am because later on after I was in college and, therefore, my sister - my older sister was taking care of her and discovered that she just couldn't do it and keep her job. So she found a very go"}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 37, "text": "What was it like when you started school after you were 10, having not been in school before, whereas all the other kids in school had been in school before?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had a couple of very good girlfriends in the summer. And, you know, one was the daughter of a farm family. And I used to go to her house. And another was in a nearby small town. So I had always had "}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 38, "text": "Do you remember the moment when you first realized women's rights was a legitimate issue along with all the other rights that you were interested in fighting for?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's return to Terry's 2015 conversation with feminist icon Gloria Steinem."}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 39, "text": "How did it redefine you to know that as somebody at the forefront of the women's movement, you were going to be an example of what you were fighting for and that the choices that you made were going to be public choices?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "how long it took me, actually. I mean, there was no - at least to me, there was no visible women's movement. So I thought I just had to function within the system as it was. And I identified with ever"}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 40, "text": "Because you spent half of your life on the road, you've had a very ambivalent relationship to home. You write that it took you a really long time to create a comfortable home for yourself, in part because you were on the road all the time. And you grew up on the road until you were 10. At what point in your life did you create a home that was truly a comfortable place - more of a nest -", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't really think about that because it seemed to me - was - the whole idea was the ability to make our own choices. So I never felt that I had to behave in a certain way that was subject to outsi"}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 41, "text": "that was a good place to return to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't really think about that because it seemed to me - was - the whole idea was the ability to make our own choices. So I never felt that I had to behave in a certain way that was subject to outsi"}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 42, "text": "I interviewed you several times on FRESH AIR in the past. And I want to play an excerpt of our interview from 1992. So this was 23 years ago.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And so I began to make a home - a nest - for myself. And I take such pleasure in it. I think, in general, as a culture, we tend to think there are two choices - settling down or traveling. And actua"}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 43, "text": "Right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, that's shocking."}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 44, "text": "And one of the things we talked about was you were looking back on having had a lumpectomy - breast cancer - and how that affected you. So I want to play what you said about that. So, again, this is from 1992 - Gloria Steinem looking back on having that lumpectomy and how it affected her life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 45, "text": "You know what I find particularly interesting about hearing you thinking about the latter part of your life is that I think for a lot of women, it's the end of your life where you're supposed to be punished for the freedoms that you've taken during the first parts of your life. You know, like, if you've decided to be independent or, you know, not be married or not have children or something, you're punished for that in the end because you're supposed to look forward to an old age where you're lonely, you're alone, there's no one to be with, no one to take care of you. I mean, I think that's been really instilled in all of us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It made me realize several things. One was - this may sound strange if I try to say it short - but that, actually, I wasn't - I was less afraid of dying than of aging - or not of aging, exactly. I did"}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 46, "text": "OK. That was Gloria Steinem on FRESH AIR in 1992. And I just did the math, and I think you were 58 when that was recorded. So now...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And like the religious version of hell, it has nothing to do with real life."}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 47, "text": "Yeah. So does what you said then still ring true?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 48, "text": "But you were never tied to those gender roles anyways. You didn't need to be...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". You hopefully have a little money so that you can, you know, do what you want. There is, as I was saying then, a whole different country after 60."}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 49, "text": "But it's not like you had the children who are now out of the house, so now, like, you have more independence.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We're all tied to those gender roles. I mean, I don't think they're escapable."}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 50, "text": "What does being in your 80s symbolize to you now? You told us a little bit about what 50 and 60 symbolizes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's true. No, that's true. It wasn't tied to the lifecycle of a child, but it was tied to hormones and sexuality and affairs and how you looked. And none of us escapes this completely, nor should w"}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 51, "text": "Shock in what sense?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Shock, total shock."}
{"id": "916870127", "date": "2020-09-25", "guest": "Gloria Steinem", "title": "Feminist Gloria Steinem On Finding Herself Free Of The 'Demands Of Gender'", "question_index": 52, "text": "Gloria Steinem, it has been great to talk with you again. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I stop people on the street and tell them how old I am because I'm trying to make myself believe it. I mean, 81 is an age that I think is someone else's age. You know, it's quite bizarre. And part of "}
{"id": "921565392", "date": "2020-10-09", "guest": "Harry Caray", "title": "Remembering MLB Pitcher Bob Gibson", "question_index": 0, "text": "Now, Tim McCarver was your catcher for many years. How did he feel about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I felt if you throw a pitch that you don't want to pitch, you're not going to have your heart in it, and it's not going to be good. And I'll tell you, when that happened - I remember back when I was v"}
{"id": "921565392", "date": "2020-10-09", "guest": "Harry Caray", "title": "Remembering MLB Pitcher Bob Gibson", "question_index": 1, "text": "You used to use the brushback pitch. Now, were there times when you intentionally tried to hit a batter?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he felt the same way. You'd never throw a pitch that you don't want to throw. And usually, a catcher like McCarver had his head in the game so much, and he was so smart about what he was doing b"}
{"id": "921565392", "date": "2020-10-09", "guest": "Harry Caray", "title": "Remembering MLB Pitcher Bob Gibson", "question_index": 2, "text": "Now, you hit Duke Snider once and broke his elbow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure, and usually, that was retaliation. We had a couple of guys - Lou Brock, Curt Flood, and Julian Javier. They got hit constantly. They were very fast. They'd get on the bases, and they just dr"}
{"id": "921565392", "date": "2020-10-09", "guest": "Harry Caray", "title": "Remembering MLB Pitcher Bob Gibson", "question_index": 3, "text": "He hit himself", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, he hit himself."}
{"id": "921565392", "date": "2020-10-09", "guest": "Harry Caray", "title": "Remembering MLB Pitcher Bob Gibson", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, he hit himself."}
{"id": "921565392", "date": "2020-10-09", "guest": "Harry Caray", "title": "Remembering MLB Pitcher Bob Gibson", "question_index": 5, "text": "Why don't you explain that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", he sure did."}
{"id": "921565392", "date": "2020-10-09", "guest": "Harry Caray", "title": "Remembering MLB Pitcher Bob Gibson", "question_index": 6, "text": "How did you feel when that happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Duke Snider was a pull hitter, dead pull hitter. And he liked the ball inside. He's a left-hand hitter. And when we - they first moved out to the Coliseum, the Coliseum's right field fence was a"}
{"id": "921565392", "date": "2020-10-09", "guest": "Harry Caray", "title": "Remembering MLB Pitcher Bob Gibson", "question_index": 7, "text": "Did you ever get hit while you were at bat?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, that was his fault. It wasn't mine. And in fact, I went over to talk to him after the game. And he told me - he says, yeah. He says, I was leaning out there, and I shouldn't have been doing it."}
{"id": "921565392", "date": "2020-10-09", "guest": "Harry Caray", "title": "Remembering MLB Pitcher Bob Gibson", "question_index": 8, "text": "Was that retribution against your pitching", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. I got hit a lot."}
{"id": "921565392", "date": "2020-10-09", "guest": "Harry Caray", "title": "Remembering MLB Pitcher Bob Gibson", "question_index": 9, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. I got hit a lot."}
{"id": "921565392", "date": "2020-10-09", "guest": "Harry Caray", "title": "Remembering MLB Pitcher Bob Gibson", "question_index": 10, "text": "Boy, so every time you intentionally hit a batter, did you figure, well, that means I'm going to get hit when I'm up...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, absolutely. You know, that's - it was the way the game was played."}
{"id": "921565392", "date": "2020-10-09", "guest": "Harry Caray", "title": "Remembering MLB Pitcher Bob Gibson", "question_index": 11, "text": "...At bat?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "921565392", "date": "2020-10-09", "guest": "Harry Caray", "title": "Remembering MLB Pitcher Bob Gibson", "question_index": 12, "text": "Like it happened a lot of times, which...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We're making it sound like..."}
{"id": "921565392", "date": "2020-10-09", "guest": "Harry Caray", "title": "Remembering MLB Pitcher Bob Gibson", "question_index": 13, "text": "...It didn't.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "921565392", "date": "2020-10-09", "guest": "Harry Caray", "title": "Remembering MLB Pitcher Bob Gibson", "question_index": 14, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it didn't happen that often."}
{"id": "921565392", "date": "2020-10-09", "guest": "Harry Caray", "title": "Remembering MLB Pitcher Bob Gibson", "question_index": 15, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "See; you got a guy back there called the umpire, and he usually stops all of this."}
{"id": "921565392", "date": "2020-10-09", "guest": "Harry Caray", "title": "Remembering MLB Pitcher Bob Gibson", "question_index": 16, "text": "Right. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When somebody gets hit on my team and I go back out there and I hit somebody in that team, the umpire will call timeout. He says, OK, guys. That's enough. And usually, that is enough, and it stops."}
{"id": "921565392", "date": "2020-10-09", "guest": "Harry Caray", "title": "Remembering MLB Pitcher Bob Gibson", "question_index": 17, "text": "Right. Does - tell me more about what your strategy was like when you were on the mound.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So you don't spend all game throwing at each other."}
{"id": "921565392", "date": "2020-10-09", "guest": "Harry Caray", "title": "Remembering MLB Pitcher Bob Gibson", "question_index": 18, "text": "I think you were the first Black athlete to get a scholarship to the college that you went to, and you got...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right. We would go into a town - for instance, going into Philadelphia. And we'd have a three-game series. The first game of each series, you have a - we have a report from the scouts. And we woul"}
{"id": "921565392", "date": "2020-10-09", "guest": "Harry Caray", "title": "Remembering MLB Pitcher Bob Gibson", "question_index": 19, "text": "Did you get a scholarship in basketball and baseball?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Creighton University."}
{"id": "921565392", "date": "2020-10-09", "guest": "Harry Caray", "title": "Remembering MLB Pitcher Bob Gibson", "question_index": 20, "text": "So did did you think that you would go into basketball at that time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. It was a basketball scholarship, and I just happened to play baseball during the summer. Yeah."}
{"id": "921565392", "date": "2020-10-09", "guest": "Harry Caray", "title": "Remembering MLB Pitcher Bob Gibson", "question_index": 21, "text": "You actually played with the Globetrotters for a while in - what was it? - around '57.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thought I was going to be a basketball player more so than a baseball player, but when I got to be a senior, I thought that maybe - and it didn't seem like anybody was interested that much in me fro"}
{"id": "921565392", "date": "2020-10-09", "guest": "Harry Caray", "title": "Remembering MLB Pitcher Bob Gibson", "question_index": 22, "text": "And you roomed with Meadowlark Lemon.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, 1957."}
{"id": "921565392", "date": "2020-10-09", "guest": "Harry Caray", "title": "Remembering MLB Pitcher Bob Gibson", "question_index": 23, "text": "But you say you hated the clowning, which is what the Globetrotters were most famous for.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I did."}
{"id": "921565392", "date": "2020-10-09", "guest": "Harry Caray", "title": "Remembering MLB Pitcher Bob Gibson", "question_index": 24, "text": "Why not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, but I didn't know that at the time because the Globetrotters came into Omaha. And at - in 1957 and I guess a year or two before that, they had a series with the College All-Stars where they playe"}
{"id": "921565392", "date": "2020-10-09", "guest": "Harry Caray", "title": "Remembering MLB Pitcher Bob Gibson", "question_index": 25, "text": "Was it hard to learn the stunts that the Globetrotters did?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm not a clown."}
{"id": "921565392", "date": "2020-10-09", "guest": "Harry Caray", "title": "Remembering MLB Pitcher Bob Gibson", "question_index": 26, "text": "You said before that breaking records didn't really mean much to you at the time. What did it mean to you to get voted into the Hall of Fame in 1980?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it's not hard at all. You - yeah, it's really funny. When you're young, you spin the ball on your finger, and you do some of those things. I don't know why you do it. But when it came time to play"}
{"id": "921565392", "date": "2020-10-09", "guest": "Harry Caray", "title": "Remembering MLB Pitcher Bob Gibson", "question_index": 27, "text": "'81 - OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "'81."}
{"id": "922092481", "date": "2020-10-12", "guest": "Chana Joffe-Walt", "title": "Podcast Examines How 'Nice White Parents' Become Obstacles In Integrated Schools", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Hello again. This is the first time I've hosted our show since Labor Day while I've been tending to a family health crisis. I'm deeply grateful to my on-air partner Dave Davies for hosting the show while I've been gone, to our book interview producer Sam Briger, who also stepped up to record some great interviews and to everyone else on our team who has protected me from having to think about anything but family. And thanks to our listeners who have expressed concern and support. It will probably be a few more days before I'm back full time, but it's great to be back to work. And now onto today's show - you probably know my guest Chana Joffe-Walt from her work as a producer and reporter on \"This American Life.\" Now that protests against the police killings and beatings of Black men and women have led to a new chapter in the American conversation about racial justice and racial inequity, Joffe-Walt has a five-part podcast about why there's still so much racial inequity in our public school system. She says in previous reporting, she'd looked at some of the many programs and reforms we've tried to fix our schools - like standardized tests and charter schools, smaller classes, longer school days, stricter discipline, looser discipline. Her series focuses on the problems caused by white parents - white parents who say they want their kids to go to schools with diversity. That's why her series is called \"Nice White Parents.\" It's the latest season of \"Serial.\" Along with Nikole Hannah-Jones, Joffe-Walt won a Peabody Award for their 2015 reporting on \"This American Life\" on education and school segregation. Her \"This American Life\" episode Five Women focused on one man accused of sexual harassment by examining his behavior from the point of view of five women. Her current podcast, \"Nice White Parents,\" focuses on a middle and high school that was formerly known as the School for International Studies in the gentrifying Brooklyn neighborhood Cobble Hill. Before gentrification, the students were Black and brown kids from poor and working-class families. When white parents started sending their kids to the school, Joffe-Walt found the school's priorities changed to suit the needs of the white kids from homes with more money. Some white parents and students thought that a bad school was being made better by their presence. It's a point Joffe-Walt makes in the first episode of \"Nice White Parents\" while she's taking us on a tour of the school.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "922092481", "date": "2020-10-12", "guest": "Chana Joffe-Walt", "title": "Podcast Examines How 'Nice White Parents' Become Obstacles In Integrated Schools", "question_index": 1, "text": "Chana Joffe-Walt, welcome to FRESH AIR, and congratulations on \"Nice White Parents.\" We should start by acknowledging that a lot of students are doing remote learning now and the meaning of school has just kind of changed since the pandemic. So let's start by acknowledging that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nobody calls it the book on statuses. They call it a directory of schools with info, like enrollment numbers for different schools, test scores and special programs. But I love that he calls it the bo"}
{"id": "922092481", "date": "2020-10-12", "guest": "Chana Joffe-Walt", "title": "Podcast Examines How 'Nice White Parents' Become Obstacles In Integrated Schools", "question_index": 2, "text": "Yeah, right. Right. So what we just heard - is the bliss point something you heard reflected by other white parents?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, my two are home."}
{"id": "922092481", "date": "2020-10-12", "guest": "Chana Joffe-Walt", "title": "Podcast Examines How 'Nice White Parents' Become Obstacles In Integrated Schools", "question_index": 3, "text": "You started reporting this story when you were figuring out where to send your kids. And you were living in Cobble Hill in Brooklyn, the neighborhood in which this story is set - you know, in which the school that you're reporting on is in. What were your options, and what were your priorities in choosing a school?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, nobody used that term, but I think so much of the conversation that parents have about schools uses sort of proxy language when it comes to race in particular. I mean, the things that pa"}
{"id": "922092481", "date": "2020-10-12", "guest": "Chana Joffe-Walt", "title": "Podcast Examines How 'Nice White Parents' Become Obstacles In Integrated Schools", "question_index": 4, "text": "What were the tours like of the schools, and how were white parents sold? How were they being kind of recruited to join the schools when you were shopping around for your kids?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I went in knowing a little bit about schools 'cause I had been reporting on schools, although I still think now that I was fairly naive in thinking about what I wanted from school and the way I though"}
{"id": "922092481", "date": "2020-10-12", "guest": "Chana Joffe-Walt", "title": "Podcast Examines How 'Nice White Parents' Become Obstacles In Integrated Schools", "question_index": 5, "text": "And that the gifted and talented program was, in a way, creating a new form of segregation within an ostensibly racially diverse school.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, one of the things that was really surprising, although probably should not have been surprising to me, was how much it really did feel like shopping - going on school tours. So I would show up"}
{"id": "922092481", "date": "2020-10-12", "guest": "Chana Joffe-Walt", "title": "Podcast Examines How 'Nice White Parents' Become Obstacles In Integrated Schools", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yeah. Well, your series examines, you know, this whole idea of diversity in the school from two different points of view - one, from the white parents looking for diversity for their schools, for their children, and the other from the parents of the, you know, Black and Latino children who were already attending the school and see this more as, like, gentrification; like the white, wealthier people are moving in and changing the priorities to suit their needs and not the needs of the children who were already here. And also, in terms of the dual perspective on this, the white parents that you report on see, like, diversity as a real priority. For the Black parents and the parents of Latino kids, of Latinx kids, they just want better schools. And they think that the better schools shouldn't necessarily require the presence of white students and the activities of white parents. Eve Ewing, who has - she's a sociologist who writes about public schools in America. She asked you at one point, why are you so obsessed with the idea of integration? What did her question do for you in terms of making you think about what integration means?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "in the - he doesn't know it's called the gifted and talented program, but he knows it's a different class and that the white kids seem to all be in that class."}
{"id": "922092481", "date": "2020-10-12", "guest": "Chana Joffe-Walt", "title": "Podcast Examines How 'Nice White Parents' Become Obstacles In Integrated Schools", "question_index": 7, "text": "Well, let's take a break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Chana Joffe-Walt. Her podcast \"Nice White Parents\" is the current season of \"Serial.\" We'll talk more about school segregation and attempts to create racial equality in our public schools after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a super helpful question. And I really remember the moment that she posed it because we were talking for, you know, several hours of kind of laying out the story for her. And the assumption tha"}
{"id": "922092481", "date": "2020-10-12", "guest": "Chana Joffe-Walt", "title": "Podcast Examines How 'Nice White Parents' Become Obstacles In Integrated Schools", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Chana Joffe-Walt. Her five-part series \"Nice White Parents\" is the current season of the podcast \"Serial.\" It's about how some white parents, even white parents who say they want integration and diversity, have ended up being obstacles to true equity in our public schools. The school that you reported on, the School for International Studies, this wasn't the first time that white parents were interested in the school, in creating an integrated school in the neighborhood. You found a folder with letters from parents dating back to 1963, when the school was known as Intermediate School 293 and it was in the process of being built. And so what were some of the common themes in 1963 from the white parents who were writing letters to the city saying they wanted the school to be integrated?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a super helpful question. And I really remember the moment that she posed it because we were talking for, you know, several hours of kind of laying out the story for her. And the assumption tha"}
{"id": "922092481", "date": "2020-10-12", "guest": "Chana Joffe-Walt", "title": "Podcast Examines How 'Nice White Parents' Become Obstacles In Integrated Schools", "question_index": 9, "text": "One of the things that you found is - because you called a lot of the white parents who had written these letters. And the parents who you spoke to did not end up sending their kids to this school, even though they had pushed for the integrated school. Why didn't they send their children?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The most familiar thing was the way white parents were talking about integration. And in the '60s, it was integration. And, I think, in 2015, the word was more diversity. But the letters - I mean, the"}
{"id": "922092481", "date": "2020-10-12", "guest": "Chana Joffe-Walt", "title": "Podcast Examines How 'Nice White Parents' Become Obstacles In Integrated Schools", "question_index": 10, "text": "One of the things that you found is that the white parents back in 1963 who had advocated for integrated schools ended up not sending their children to the school that was integrated, but they ended up controlling where the school was going to be built, even though their children didn't end up going there. It was built in a location more convenient for the white children. Would you describe what happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I heard a lot of different reasons about why people didn't send their kids. Some people left the city. And the school was being planned in the early 60s and opened in the late 60s. And so some of thes"}
{"id": "922092481", "date": "2020-10-12", "guest": "Chana Joffe-Walt", "title": "Podcast Examines How 'Nice White Parents' Become Obstacles In Integrated Schools", "question_index": 11, "text": "And the kids from the housing project had to walk several blocks further to get to school every day.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that still blows my mind. So this - I found this box of letters. And it's just letter after letter of parents from the white side of the neighborhood saying, we want integration. We believe in i"}
{"id": "922092481", "date": "2020-10-12", "guest": "Chana Joffe-Walt", "title": "Podcast Examines How 'Nice White Parents' Become Obstacles In Integrated Schools", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, let's take a break here. And then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Chana Joffe-Walt, the reporter on the five part series Nice White Parents, which is the current season of the podcast Serial. After we take a short break, we'll talk more about the role of white parents in creating diversity in our schools and in being obstacles to racial equality in our schools. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, yeah."}
{"id": "922092481", "date": "2020-10-12", "guest": "Chana Joffe-Walt", "title": "Podcast Examines How 'Nice White Parents' Become Obstacles In Integrated Schools", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Chana Joffe-Walt. Her five part series, Nice White Parents, is the current season of the podcast Serial. Serial is now part of The New York Times. Nice White Parents is about attempts to integrate our public schools and how white parents who say they want integration and diversity often become obstacles to true racial equity. Joffe-Walt is a reporter and producer for This American Life. You have a terrific example of the conflicting needs and desires of the two economic classes in the school that you report on and at the school that was formerly known as the School for International Studies, SIS, a middle school high school. And while white parents were being pitched and marketed to to send their kids to this school, somebody named Rob Hansen, who lives near this school, was considering sending his kid, suggested, well, how about a French dual-language program? He was able to sell the school on that idea. And then he's a professional fundraiser. He fundraises for nonprofits. So he started fundraising for a dual-language French program. I want to play a clip from Nice White Parents. And this is set at a PTA meeting, a meeting of the PTA executive board. The co-president of the PTA, Imee Hernandez, who's Puerto Rican and grew up in Brooklyn, is attending, as is the principal of the school. And in this meeting, the PTA executive board is talking about how Rob has raised a lot of money, thousands of dollars for the dual-language program. But most of the people at this executive PTA committee didn't even know that it was happening. So, Chana, you start this off narrating what's going on.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, yeah."}
{"id": "922092481", "date": "2020-10-12", "guest": "Chana Joffe-Walt", "title": "Podcast Examines How 'Nice White Parents' Become Obstacles In Integrated Schools", "question_index": 14, "text": "That's a clip from Chana Joffe-Walt's podcast series Nice White Parents, which is the latest season of Serial. So the fundraising that Rob Hansen was doing for the French dual-language program - that money was only for that program. That's the way a lot of, you know, grants and donations work - that it's assigned to one project. So what are some of the other needs in the school that were getting ignored? Because all of the money that he was bringing in was going for this French dual-language program.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it makes it tricky. I mean, and, again, I'm not..."}
{"id": "922092481", "date": "2020-10-12", "guest": "Chana Joffe-Walt", "title": "Podcast Examines How 'Nice White Parents' Become Obstacles In Integrated Schools", "question_index": 15, "text": "Was there a lot of resentment that, you know, the new white family or families were creating this priority without the participation or even knowledge in some cases of other members of the PTA and other parents in the school?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It wasn't always clear that all of the money that the new families - Rob and other white parents - were raising was explicitly for the French program. It was clear that the people who were contributin"}
{"id": "922092481", "date": "2020-10-12", "guest": "Chana Joffe-Walt", "title": "Podcast Examines How 'Nice White Parents' Become Obstacles In Integrated Schools", "question_index": 16, "text": "Is it fair to say there was a sense of entitlement, too, that - like, the white parents had contacts. They could contact the French Embassy. They knew wealthy people who were willing - they knew Francophiles who were willing to, like, donate money to this as opposed to just, like, cupcake sales or something. So because of their contacts, because of the power that they had, they were creating the priorities and raising the money. And, again, it seems like - from a lot of the Black parents and Latinx parents, it seemed like a loss of control.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yeah. I mean, there was mixed feelings, though not everybody - but there was definitely some skepticism that turned into resentment that turned - like, that kind of deepened over the course of th"}
{"id": "922092481", "date": "2020-10-12", "guest": "Chana Joffe-Walt", "title": "Podcast Examines How 'Nice White Parents' Become Obstacles In Integrated Schools", "question_index": 17, "text": "OK. Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Chana Joffe-Walt. Her podcast \"Nice White Parents\" is the current season of \"Serial.\" And \"Serial\" is now part of The New York Times. We'll talk more after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Right. So it wasn't always an objection to whatever was being proposed. Like, you know, Microsoft is going to give us more computers - great. It was an objection to the sort of we're - we have "}
{"id": "922092481", "date": "2020-10-12", "guest": "Chana Joffe-Walt", "title": "Podcast Examines How 'Nice White Parents' Become Obstacles In Integrated Schools", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Chana Joffe-Walt. Her five-part series \"Nice White Parents\" is the current season of the podcast \"Serial.\" It's about how some white parents, even white parents who say they want integration and diversity, have ended up being obstacles to true equity in our public schools. The school that you reported on, this wasn't the first time that white parents were interested in creating an integrated school in the neighborhood. You found a folder with letters from parents dating back to 1963. I want to play a clip with one of the women who pushed for an integrated school and ended up not sending her child there. And she had been a public school teacher who taught in an integrated elementary school until she had her own children. Her name is Elaine Henchy (ph). And you spoke to her by phone. And here's what she had to say.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Right. So it wasn't always an objection to whatever was being proposed. Like, you know, Microsoft is going to give us more computers - great. It was an objection to the sort of we're - we have "}
{"id": "922092481", "date": "2020-10-12", "guest": "Chana Joffe-Walt", "title": "Podcast Examines How 'Nice White Parents' Become Obstacles In Integrated Schools", "question_index": 19, "text": "When she says there, I was innocent, you think she really meant, I was naive?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I certainly didn't think it would be so difficult. But I was innocent, you know? I don't know. I still believe in it, I do."}
{"id": "922092481", "date": "2020-10-12", "guest": "Chana Joffe-Walt", "title": "Podcast Examines How 'Nice White Parents' Become Obstacles In Integrated Schools", "question_index": 20, "text": "What were some of the hardest things for you in getting people to talk honestly with you about race? I think, for a lot of people, it's really - and, maybe, particularly for white people, it's difficult to talk about race and racial inequity.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. And I think she was. And I think a lot of progressive, white parents - nice, white parents - have - share this with her. I definitely recognized myself in what Elaine was describing as a s"}
{"id": "922092481", "date": "2020-10-12", "guest": "Chana Joffe-Walt", "title": "Podcast Examines How 'Nice White Parents' Become Obstacles In Integrated Schools", "question_index": 21, "text": "Finally, Chana, what's it been like for you to have your children learning at home during the pandemic? I mean, you've been studying schools, reporting on schools for years. And now the school for your kids is your home, and the responsibility to help them learn long-distance is yours and your husband's. So tell us what that's been like for you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, it was so - it definitely was more difficult with white people. I did not have the same problem getting lots of people of color to talk to me, although there was, like, a question of wha"}
{"id": "922092481", "date": "2020-10-12", "guest": "Chana Joffe-Walt", "title": "Podcast Examines How 'Nice White Parents' Become Obstacles In Integrated Schools", "question_index": 22, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've learned that I forgot a lot of math."}
{"id": "922092481", "date": "2020-10-12", "guest": "Chana Joffe-Walt", "title": "Podcast Examines How 'Nice White Parents' Become Obstacles In Integrated Schools", "question_index": 23, "text": "I relate.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And..."}
{"id": "922092481", "date": "2020-10-12", "guest": "Chana Joffe-Walt", "title": "Podcast Examines How 'Nice White Parents' Become Obstacles In Integrated Schools", "question_index": 24, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's just made me think about what schools are for. What do I want them to get from school? And you do have a very, like, close view of what they are actually learning in school. And for me, I"}
{"id": "922092481", "date": "2020-10-12", "guest": "Chana Joffe-Walt", "title": "Podcast Examines How 'Nice White Parents' Become Obstacles In Integrated Schools", "question_index": 25, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And what I always wanted was for my kid to have, like, seven different passwords on Google products and sit in front of a computer all day. So I've heard a lot of stories about if you're able to wo"}
{"id": "922092481", "date": "2020-10-12", "guest": "Chana Joffe-Walt", "title": "Podcast Examines How 'Nice White Parents' Become Obstacles In Integrated Schools", "question_index": 26, "text": "Well, thank you so much, Chana, for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I have noticed that my older son hums the entire day, all day long. Like, Jacob (ph) is a person who kind of, like, quietly hums to himself, which I did not know before and is, you know, something"}
{"id": "922092481", "date": "2020-10-12", "guest": "Chana Joffe-Walt", "title": "Podcast Examines How 'Nice White Parents' Become Obstacles In Integrated Schools", "question_index": 27, "text": "Chana Joffe-Walt is a producer for \"This American Life.\" Her five-part series \"Nice White Parents\" is the latest season of the podcast \"Serial,\" which is now part of The New York Times.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. It was fun."}
{"id": "923622893", "date": "2020-10-14", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "2 Broadway Stars Grapple With COVID And ALS: 'We're Adapting To A New Reality'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The nominees for Broadway's Tony Awards will be announced tomorrow. The award ceremony was originally scheduled for June but was postponed because of the COVID pandemic. One of the shows likely to receive nominations is \"Moulin Rouge!,\" the musical adapted from the film of the same name. Just hours before all of Broadway shut down last March in response to the pandemic, \"Moulin Rouge!\" cancelled a matinee because someone in the production was suspected of having COVID. COVID then spread to several other members of the production including one of its stars, my guest Danny Burstein. He had a severe case, had to be hospitalized. And there were several times when he thought he would die. When he returned home, his wife, Rebecca Luker, who's also with us and who's also a Broadway star, came down with COVID. Her case was relatively mild. But it was on top of having been diagnosed just a few months earlier with ALS - or Lou Gehrig's disease - a progressive disease that affects nerve cells in the brain and spinal cord causing loss of muscle control, which can make it increasingly difficult to move, speak or even breathe. Burstein and Luker are two of my favorite Broadway performers. And I know many people share that feeling. She's received three Tony nominations. Burstein has been nominated six times. And it's likely he'll receive a seventh nomination for his performance in \"Moulin Rouge!,\" for which he's already won this year's Drama League Award for Distinguished Performance. Last week, it was announced that Broadway will stay dark until the end of May. Let's start by hearing recordings by Luker and Burstein in roles for which they received Tony nominations. First, we'll hear Rebecca Luker as Maria in the 1998 revival of \"The Sound Of Music.\" Then we'll hear Danny Burstein as Tevye in the 2015 revival of \"Fiddler On The Roof.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "923622893", "date": "2020-10-14", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "2 Broadway Stars Grapple With COVID And ALS: 'We're Adapting To A New Reality'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Rebecca Luker, Danny Burstein, welcome back to FRESH AIR. You've both been on our show several times. It's a pleasure to have you back. I'm so sorry about all the medical problems you've been having. And I know it's been a rough time. So you've both had COVID, so I want to start with that. I'd like to hear your reaction to President Trump's message that it was a blessing from God that he caught COVID. He said that the remdesivir, the antiviral medication, he was given, which doesn't have government approval yet, was a cure when a lot of people are saying - a lot of medical experts are saying, if anything helped him, it was probably the dexamethasone. And the president urged people not to be afraid of COVID and said he felt better than he did 20 years ago. So what was your reaction to hearing that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Tevye, singing) If I were a rich man - (harmonizing). All day long, I'd biddy, biddy bum, if I were a wealthy man. Wouldn't have to work hard - (harmonizing) - if I were a biddy, biddy rich, yidle"}
{"id": "923622893", "date": "2020-10-14", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "2 Broadway Stars Grapple With COVID And ALS: 'We're Adapting To A New Reality'", "question_index": 2, "text": "Now, you said you had residual effects from the COVID. What are they?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's absurd. It's a perversion of reality. And I'm sorry that he was sick. And I'm sorry so many people in the government have gotten sick from it. But I truly wish they had actually learned something"}
{"id": "923622893", "date": "2020-10-14", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "2 Broadway Stars Grapple With COVID And ALS: 'We're Adapting To A New Reality'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Danny, you wrote two very moving articles about dealing with COVID and with Becca having ALS - articles in the Hollywood Reporter. Why did you write them? And what has the response been?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. You were strong."}
{"id": "923622893", "date": "2020-10-14", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "2 Broadway Stars Grapple With COVID And ALS: 'We're Adapting To A New Reality'", "question_index": 4, "text": "I imagine just about everything in your lives has changed because of COVID and because of ALS. Becca, let me ask you to describe where you are physically now in relationship to the ALS.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Amazing."}
{"id": "923622893", "date": "2020-10-14", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "2 Broadway Stars Grapple With COVID And ALS: 'We're Adapting To A New Reality'", "question_index": 5, "text": "COVID is a kind of famous disease now. It's a pandemic. Everybody knows about it. And most people who have any understanding of science are afraid of it. But, Becca, you have ALS, which doesn't affect nearly as many people as COVID. Most people don't really know what it is. And I'm interested in the difference between having a kind of famous disease like COVID and that's contagious like COVID and having one that is more rare, less understood - less understood by scientists as well as by, you know, just regular people. You know, compare - you know, you've had both. Like, what are some of the differences for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh."}
{"id": "923622893", "date": "2020-10-14", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "2 Broadway Stars Grapple With COVID And ALS: 'We're Adapting To A New Reality'", "question_index": 6, "text": "But in terms - like, for instance, one of the things you're trying to do now is call attention to a drug that's still in its experimental phase. But you want to expedite the testing. And because COVID affects so many people, you know, the government has been trying to really fast-track experimental drugs, which is, you know, good. Let's get the testing done. Of course, let's do the testing", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, with COVID, I barely noticed that I had it. I had - I lost my taste and smell for a couple of weeks and had a low-grade fever that I really couldn't even feel. So I was very lucky. ALS is much m"}
{"id": "923622893", "date": "2020-10-14", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "2 Broadway Stars Grapple With COVID And ALS: 'We're Adapting To A New Reality'", "question_index": 7, "text": "before we start distributing it. But - so you're trying to call attention to a drug candidate for ALS and for other neuromuscular disorders like MS and Huntington's disease, Parkinson's disease. So what, specifically, are you trying to do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, with COVID, I barely noticed that I had it. I had - I lost my taste and smell for a couple of weeks and had a low-grade fever that I really couldn't even feel. So I was very lucky. ALS is much m"}
{"id": "923622893", "date": "2020-10-14", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "2 Broadway Stars Grapple With COVID And ALS: 'We're Adapting To A New Reality'", "question_index": 8, "text": "I think we need to take a break here, so let's do that. And then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guests are Broadway stars Rebecca Luker and Danny Burstein, who've been married since 2000. We'll talk more after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And we hope people will join us."}
{"id": "923622893", "date": "2020-10-14", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "2 Broadway Stars Grapple With COVID And ALS: 'We're Adapting To A New Reality'", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Broadway stars Rebecca Luker and Danny Burstein, who are a married couple. He was starring in \"Moulin Rouge!\" when it went dark because of COVID. He came down with a severe case. Luker had a relatively mild case soon after. But she had been diagnosed just a few months earlier with the progressive disease ALS - Lou Gehrig's disease - which interferes with the brain's ability to initiate movement and control muscles. So the Tony nominations were postponed in June because of COVID. And now nominations will be announced tomorrow. Was \"Moulin Rouge!\" the first show to go dark because there was a case of suspected COVID in the production?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And we hope people will join us."}
{"id": "923622893", "date": "2020-10-14", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "2 Broadway Stars Grapple With COVID And ALS: 'We're Adapting To A New Reality'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Were you afraid to go to the hospital, thinking, like, well, maybe I don't have COVID, but I'll be exposed to it if I do go?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A little over - like, nine days later, I was in the hospital."}
{"id": "923622893", "date": "2020-10-14", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "2 Broadway Stars Grapple With COVID And ALS: 'We're Adapting To A New Reality'", "question_index": 11, "text": "You wrote in your articles that there were times you thought you were going to die. Were you reflecting on your life during that time, during those times when you thought, like, I might be dying right now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But they took me in right away. And I got great care there. And I'm very grateful to everybody in that building."}
{"id": "923622893", "date": "2020-10-14", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "2 Broadway Stars Grapple With COVID And ALS: 'We're Adapting To A New Reality'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Danny, in your articles about having COVID, you wrote about strength in stillness and trying to find that strength in stillness. What does that mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You were, yeah."}
{"id": "923622893", "date": "2020-10-14", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "2 Broadway Stars Grapple With COVID And ALS: 'We're Adapting To A New Reality'", "question_index": 13, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guests are Broadway stars Rebecca Luker and Danny Burstein. We'll talk more about COVID, ALS, Broadway and their lives together after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And that one day I would blow out the candles and move forward."}
{"id": "923622893", "date": "2020-10-14", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "2 Broadway Stars Grapple With COVID And ALS: 'We're Adapting To A New Reality'", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Broadway stars Rebecca Luker and Danny Burstein. Their lives have become very complicated by health crises. Burstein was starring on Broadway in \"Moulin Rouge!\" when it was forced to cancel performances because someone in the production had COVID. This was just before all of Broadway went dark. Soon after, Burstein came down with a severe case of COVID. After he returned home from the hospital, Luker had a relatively mild case of COVID, but that was on top of having been diagnosed a few months earlier with ALS, also known as Lou Gehrig's disease, a progressive neuromuscular disease that affects the brain's ability to initiate and control muscle movement and, in later stages, can lead to paralysis. Luker has starred in revivals of \"Show Boat,\" \"The Sound Of Music\" and \"The Music Man\" and is a three-time Tony nominee. Burstein won awards for his performances in revivals of \"South Pacific,\" \"Follies,\" \"Fiddler On The Roof,\" is a six-time Tony nominee and won this year's Drama League Award for distinguished performance for his performance in \"Moulin Rouge!\" There's no test for ALS, so how did you know you even had it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And that one day I would blow out the candles and move forward."}
{"id": "923622893", "date": "2020-10-14", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "2 Broadway Stars Grapple With COVID And ALS: 'We're Adapting To A New Reality'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Becca, how have you dealt emotionally with knowing that this is a progressive disease and that there is no cure? Have you wanted to know what the future might look like, or do you want to protect yourself from thinking about the future?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And several times because one doctor thought that this one meant the other doctor missed it. And then we got to work with doctors from Mass General and also Columbia Presbyterian, two of the greatest "}
{"id": "923622893", "date": "2020-10-14", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "2 Broadway Stars Grapple With COVID And ALS: 'We're Adapting To A New Reality'", "question_index": 16, "text": "I'm going to knock on for a mic (ph).", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes."}
{"id": "923622893", "date": "2020-10-14", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "2 Broadway Stars Grapple With COVID And ALS: 'We're Adapting To A New Reality'", "question_index": 17, "text": "That's the best I can do right now. Oh, here's some wood. I'll knock on that. There's a wooden chair. All right", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes."}
{"id": "923622893", "date": "2020-10-14", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "2 Broadway Stars Grapple With COVID And ALS: 'We're Adapting To A New Reality'", "question_index": 18, "text": ". If you don't mind my asking - I think you have just such a beautiful voice. I love your singing so much. And I know it's hard for you just to have enough breath to talk right now. And as recently as June, there was a Zoom event for you, related to ALS and raising awareness about it, and you sung three songs in that and sounded gorgeous. So I can hear that, you know, in terms of your voice and the breath that you need for voice, that that's progressed. Are there songs that go through your mind now, even if you can't really sing them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes."}
{"id": "923622893", "date": "2020-10-14", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "2 Broadway Stars Grapple With COVID And ALS: 'We're Adapting To A New Reality'", "question_index": 19, "text": "Should be. Gosh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah. There's a type of..."}
{"id": "923622893", "date": "2020-10-14", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "2 Broadway Stars Grapple With COVID And ALS: 'We're Adapting To A New Reality'", "question_index": 20, "text": "I agree, let's - why don't we pause and listen to one?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's a type of immortality that we were talking about the other day that Becca's recordings give her, and she was expressing how proud she is of those recordings. So - and they are. They're gloriou"}
{"id": "923622893", "date": "2020-10-14", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "2 Broadway Stars Grapple With COVID And ALS: 'We're Adapting To A New Reality'", "question_index": 21, "text": "So I'd like you, Becca, to choose one that you'd particularly like to hear, especially if it's a song that has special meaning for you now or that's taken on a new meaning for you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yay."}
{"id": "923622893", "date": "2020-10-14", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "2 Broadway Stars Grapple With COVID And ALS: 'We're Adapting To A New Reality'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Say a few words about why you love this song, and then we'll hear it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was going to suggest \"My White Knight.\""}
{"id": "923622893", "date": "2020-10-14", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "2 Broadway Stars Grapple With COVID And ALS: 'We're Adapting To A New Reality'", "question_index": 23, "text": "That was Rebecca Luker singing \"My White Knight\" from the musical \"The Music Man.\" And this is from a Broadway revival of the show. And that is such a beautiful recording and - grateful to have it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Marian, singing) My white knight, not a Lancelot, nor an angel with wings - just someone to love me who is not ashamed of a few nice things. My white knight, what my heart would say if it only kne"}
{"id": "923622893", "date": "2020-10-14", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "2 Broadway Stars Grapple With COVID And ALS: 'We're Adapting To A New Reality'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Yeah. I always think it must be so hard to have something that you're so gifted at that you can't do anymore.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was one of my favorite parts of the show."}
{"id": "923622893", "date": "2020-10-14", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "2 Broadway Stars Grapple With COVID And ALS: 'We're Adapting To A New Reality'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. My guests are two Broadway stars who have been married since 2000, Danny Burstein and Rebecca Luker. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "923622893", "date": "2020-10-14", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "2 Broadway Stars Grapple With COVID And ALS: 'We're Adapting To A New Reality'", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Broadway stars Danny Burstein and Rebecca Luker. They've been married since 2000. He was one of the stars of \"Moulin Rouge!\" when it went dark in March because someone in the production was suspected of having COVID. Soon after, Burstein got a severe case of COVID. After he was released from the hospital, Rebecca Luker came down with a relatively mild case. But that was just months after she'd been diagnosed with ALS, Lou Gehrig's disease, a progressive disease that affects nerve cells in the brain and spinal cord, causing loss of muscle control, which can make it increasingly difficult to move, speak or breathe. Danny, do you think you have a better understanding of what it's like to have an illness because you had COVID and had such a bad case of it? Like, there might be a level of understanding of the sense of what it's like to feel dependent, what it's like to feel a loss of control.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "923622893", "date": "2020-10-14", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "2 Broadway Stars Grapple With COVID And ALS: 'We're Adapting To A New Reality'", "question_index": 27, "text": "Becca, do you feel similarly?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "soaring and free and wants to be happy and move your limbs. And - but unfortunately, you're - it becomes more and more claustrophobic for you. So it's been difficult to watch her go through it. But I "}
{"id": "923622893", "date": "2020-10-14", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "2 Broadway Stars Grapple With COVID And ALS: 'We're Adapting To A New Reality'", "question_index": 28, "text": "You know, everybody says it's very, very hard to be a patient, but it's also very hard to be a caregiver. And it can also when - in a couple when one person needs care and the spouse is the caregiver, it can be a very loving, tender thing. It can also create a lot of impatience with each other. And if you're comfortable talking about it, because so many people are going through or have gone through or will go through this kind of thing, if there's anything you're comfortable sharing about the tenderness and the pressures when somebody is sick and the spouse becomes the caregiver.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I really do. There are times when I think I've made peace with dying and then I - and at other times, I reject that very strongly because, you know, I just always thought I'd be an old lady. And so I "}
{"id": "923622893", "date": "2020-10-14", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "2 Broadway Stars Grapple With COVID And ALS: 'We're Adapting To A New Reality'", "question_index": 29, "text": "My guests are Broadway stars Rebecca Luker and Danny Burstein, who've been married for 20 years. We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, we are. You know who you are. We love you."}
{"id": "923622893", "date": "2020-10-14", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "2 Broadway Stars Grapple With COVID And ALS: 'We're Adapting To A New Reality'", "question_index": 30, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Broadway stars Rebecca Luker and Danny Burstein, who've been married 20 years. He was starring in \"Moulin Rouge!\" when it went dark because of COVID. He came down with a severe case. Luker had a relatively mild case soon after, but she had been diagnosed just a few months earlier with the progressive disease ALS, Lou Gehrig's disease, which interferes with the brain's ability to initiate movement and control muscles. You both have received Tony nominations for your performances in musicals. Becca, it seems like you are just such a natural singer, I can't imagine - no one could learn to sing like you unless they had a gift that they just had, you know? And, Danny, you've said you never really thought of yourself as a singer and that you had to work at it, although I think you're a terrific singer. I've heard you in several musicals. But compare your approaches to how you developed into singers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, we are. You know who you are. We love you."}
{"id": "923622893", "date": "2020-10-14", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "2 Broadway Stars Grapple With COVID And ALS: 'We're Adapting To A New Reality'", "question_index": 31, "text": "Can you put your finger on something that you learned from him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I learned a lot from Danny because he's such a great actor that it made me better over the years. Absolutely."}
{"id": "923622893", "date": "2020-10-14", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "2 Broadway Stars Grapple With COVID And ALS: 'We're Adapting To A New Reality'", "question_index": 32, "text": "Just a few months ago in June, when you had a little more breath, before the ALS had advanced to the point where it is now, you did a Zoom event to raise awareness about ALS, and you sang a Jerome Kern song called \"Not You\" that's also on your Jerome Kern album from - and I thought, since we're talking about your voice, that we might hear a little bit of that. And so if you could maybe compare for us the - what the song means in context - in the context of the show that it's from, but what the song - with what the song means personally to you now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, just how to communicate a song. You know, I - when I was younger, I would really fall back on just the fact that I had a pretty voice, you know? So as I matured - and especially after I met Danny "}
{"id": "923622893", "date": "2020-10-14", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "2 Broadway Stars Grapple With COVID And ALS: 'We're Adapting To A New Reality'", "question_index": 33, "text": "And he's a kind of transitional figure, really, from, like, operetta to Broadway shows. And, like, you're kind of transitional in that sense, too, 'cause I'm sure you could sing opera, even though your career has been on Broadway.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I just think it's one of the most beautiful early Kern songs ever. Sondheim said he liked it, too, so that's good. What it means to me - I just think it's one of the most beautiful Kern ballads ev"}
{"id": "923622893", "date": "2020-10-14", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "2 Broadway Stars Grapple With COVID And ALS: 'We're Adapting To A New Reality'", "question_index": 34, "text": "So this is Rebecca Luker, recorded in June, singing the Jerome Kern song \"Not You.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I've sung a little opera. I'm definitely a crossover performer. I like singing many, many different styles. I enjoy that."}
{"id": "923622893", "date": "2020-10-14", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "2 Broadway Stars Grapple With COVID And ALS: 'We're Adapting To A New Reality'", "question_index": 35, "text": "That was my guest, Rebecca Luker, recorded in June singing the Jerome Kern song \"Not You.\" And in the months since then, her ALS, Lou Gehrig's disease, has progressed. And at this point, Becca, you're saying you can't really sing anymore or you don't have enough breath or diaphragm support to do that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I used to think that men were all the same and different only as to name. I used to think that sentiment was nothing more than accident and that things just were, that they had to occur and "}
{"id": "923622893", "date": "2020-10-14", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "2 Broadway Stars Grapple With COVID And ALS: 'We're Adapting To A New Reality'", "question_index": 36, "text": "...Sadly for you and for all of us who love your singing, like me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "923622893", "date": "2020-10-14", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "2 Broadway Stars Grapple With COVID And ALS: 'We're Adapting To A New Reality'", "question_index": 37, "text": "So, you know, also with us is Danny Burstein, who is a six-time Tony nominee. Rebecca Luker's a three-time Tony nominee. And so, Danny, we've been saying that you got COVID shortly after \"Moulin Rouge!\" closed on Broadway because there was a suspected case of COVID that turned out to be a real case of COVID. And then you got it soon after. What are the odds that \"Moulin Rouge!\" will ever reopen? I mean, it seems like a really expensive, lavish musical. And, you know, Broadway, - financially, who knows what Broadway's future is going to be.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much."}
{"id": "923622893", "date": "2020-10-14", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "2 Broadway Stars Grapple With COVID And ALS: 'We're Adapting To A New Reality'", "question_index": 38, "text": "Yeah. No one's sure of anything right now when it comes to when will things reopen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It may take a while. I mean, they said in the most recent press release that we should be back June 1, but, you know, even that's - we're unsure of that."}
{"id": "923622893", "date": "2020-10-14", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "2 Broadway Stars Grapple With COVID And ALS: 'We're Adapting To A New Reality'", "question_index": 39, "text": "OK. Well, good luck with the Tony nominations, and I will be thinking of you both. Thank you so much for this conversation and for sharing so much with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is expensive, but they are committed to keeping the show open. And one way or another, we will be back."}
{"id": "923622893", "date": "2020-10-14", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "2 Broadway Stars Grapple With COVID And ALS: 'We're Adapting To A New Reality'", "question_index": 40, "text": "Our thanks to Danny Burstein and Rebecca Luker. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be filmmaker Craig Foster. His new documentary, \"My Octopus Teacher,\" is about a year Foster spent diving off the coast of South Africa into a kelp forest. There, he gained the trust of a wild octopus that taught him about its life and Foster's own. I hope you'll join us. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Kayla Lattimore. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Lovely talking to you, Terry."}
{"id": "924314765", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Joe Morgan", "title": "Remembering Baseball Hall Of Famer Joe Morgan", "question_index": 0, "text": "What did you like and not like about playing that position?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A second baseman's main job is to play defense and make the double play. Neither are very glamorous things in baseball because they look for people to hit home runs, drive-in runs, do a lot of great t"}
{"id": "924314765", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Joe Morgan", "title": "Remembering Baseball Hall Of Famer Joe Morgan", "question_index": 1, "text": "What were your worst moments of impact?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know what, I can't think of anything I didn't like. I was very proud to have been a second baseman in that I think it takes a special type of person to play second base. The rules have changed a l"}
{"id": "924314765", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Joe Morgan", "title": "Remembering Baseball Hall Of Famer Joe Morgan", "question_index": 2, "text": "You were considered one of the most complete players in the game because you had a great hitting record, stolen bases, great at second base - I mean, a real all-around player. You got most valuable player twice. Is that something that you consciously tried to develop, to be an all-around player?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had a few. One - 1969. I was stretched out to receive a throw and Tommie Agee from the Mets hit me with a cross-body block, which is a football block - as I said, there were no rules then - and tore"}
{"id": "924314765", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Joe Morgan", "title": "Remembering Baseball Hall Of Famer Joe Morgan", "question_index": 3, "text": "Let's talk about your height. You're one of the comparatively shorter players...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it was. I did not go out to be the best, but I wanted to be the most complete player in the game. And I think I reached that goal in, you know, '75, '76, in that era. Growing up in California, my"}
{"id": "924314765", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Joe Morgan", "title": "Remembering Baseball Hall Of Famer Joe Morgan", "question_index": 4, "text": "...From baseball - 5'7\" I think?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "924314765", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Joe Morgan", "title": "Remembering Baseball Hall Of Famer Joe Morgan", "question_index": 5, "text": "When you first got to the majors and, you know, you were a rookie - and pitchers are always trying to take advantage of rookies - was it worse for you because you were short?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "924314765", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Joe Morgan", "title": "Remembering Baseball Hall Of Famer Joe Morgan", "question_index": 6, "text": "Now, you grew up near the old Oakland Park.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "my neck and all that. And as a rookie, you better not say anything - well, you're better off not saying anything. Some people make waves, but I don't think it helps them. Me, I just took it as part of"}
{"id": "924314765", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Joe Morgan", "title": "Remembering Baseball Hall Of Famer Joe Morgan", "question_index": 7, "text": "Did you go there - were you in walking distance? Could you just walk over there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "924314765", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Joe Morgan", "title": "Remembering Baseball Hall Of Famer Joe Morgan", "question_index": 8, "text": "So your father must've been a big baseball fan, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know, so it may have been a little less. But we walked to the stadium, to Oaks Ballpark, Oakland Oaks, where the team - the home team in the Pacific Coast League. And my father and my oldest sis"}
{"id": "924314765", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Joe Morgan", "title": "Remembering Baseball Hall Of Famer Joe Morgan", "question_index": 9, "text": "Couldn't walk there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes, my father was a big sports fan. We would go, also, to the San Francisco 49er games. My father would take me each Sunday."}
{"id": "924314765", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Joe Morgan", "title": "Remembering Baseball Hall Of Famer Joe Morgan", "question_index": 10, "text": "So did he play in the Black leagues?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But we - my father was a baseball player. He played, you know? But it was before the color line was broken. And my father - and I had, like, three or four uncles. Two of them they think were good enou"}
{"id": "924314765", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Joe Morgan", "title": "Remembering Baseball Hall Of Famer Joe Morgan", "question_index": 11, "text": "When you were scouted and you got into the minors, you were in the Carolina League first. You were playing in the segregated South.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let's get back to Terry's 1993 interview with Hall of Fame second baseman Joe Morgan. He played 22 seasons, mostly with the Houston Astros and Cincinnati Reds. Morgan died Sunday at the age of 77."}
{"id": "924314765", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Joe Morgan", "title": "Remembering Baseball Hall Of Famer Joe Morgan", "question_index": 12, "text": "And you write about how you were so absorbed in baseball, it took you a while to actually...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "924314765", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Joe Morgan", "title": "Remembering Baseball Hall Of Famer Joe Morgan", "question_index": 13, "text": "...Realize what segregation meant, what it meant in your life then. So what were some of the things you were up against that bothered you most during those days in the minors?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "924314765", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Joe Morgan", "title": "Remembering Baseball Hall Of Famer Joe Morgan", "question_index": 14, "text": "So you were going to leave the whole league?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when I first started playing professional baseball - where I grew up in California, you know, as the old cliche goes, some of my best friends were white, some of my best friends were blue, green"}
{"id": "924314765", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Joe Morgan", "title": "Remembering Baseball Hall Of Famer Joe Morgan", "question_index": 15, "text": "So what was it like in 1990 when you were inducted into the Hall of Fame?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was going to leave. I said, you know, I'm - I have more respect for my people than this, than to be a part of this and to be a part of continuing to, you know, degrade the situation, just being a pa"}
{"id": "924314765", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Joe Morgan", "title": "Remembering Baseball Hall Of Famer Joe Morgan", "question_index": 16, "text": "Joe Morgan, it's been a pleasure to have you here.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's something that I've tried to describe in the book. But I don't think that I could ever do justice to it because I'm not a poet. I'm not someone who can, you know, have great things to s"}
{"id": "924314765", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Joe Morgan", "title": "Remembering Baseball Hall Of Famer Joe Morgan", "question_index": 17, "text": "I thank you a lot for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "924316868", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 0, "text": "Heidi Schreck, welcome to FRESH AIR. I don't know if this is the right thing to say or not, but had we been good friends and you came to me and said, I'm going to do this, well, you know, show about the Constitution, I might have tried to talk you out of it.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. Our guest, Heidi Schreck, wrote and starred in the play whose title is both serious and tongue-in-cheek, reflecting how the play itself is both "}
{"id": "924316868", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 1, "text": "But I actually love the show. So I want you to describe the show in your words.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "924316868", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 2, "text": "So, you know, your show is, you know, about, like, the strength of the Constitution. It's also very much about the imperfections of the Constitution, the silences and the absences in the Constitution and the people it fails to protect. But when you were 15 and participating in these Constitution debates or performances, was the understanding you were given by the American Legion, that sponsored this competition, that the Constitution was pretty much perfect and it was your job to, like, describe the ways in which it was perfect?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Yes, a few friends did try to talk me out of it, actually. So my show, \"What The Constitution Means To Me,\" is a recreation of a contest I did as a teenage girl. I would travel the country givin"}
{"id": "924316868", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 3, "text": "So one of the things that you talk about in the show is what the Constitution has to say about immigration, what it doesn't have to say about immigration and who becomes a citizen. Your great-great-grandmother, you say, was considered a good immigrant when she came in 1879. Your great-great-grandfather, actually, ordered her from a catalogue. She was a mail-order bride.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know if that was the directive given to me by the American Legion or not. I actually don't remember that. I believe that it was my understanding of the Constitution. I believed that about the "}
{"id": "924316868", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 4, "text": "And he was in the state of Washington, where you were born and grew up. And you say Washington needed more women at the time. Why did they need more women?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "924316868", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 5, "text": "So what would happen? Like, women like your great-great-grandmother would go to the publisher of the catalogue and say, put me in it; I want to be eligible to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They needed more women in Washington because the male-to-female ratio at the time was 9 to 1. In fact, at some points around this time - this was, like, the late 19th century - it was even higher. I t"}
{"id": "924316868", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 6, "text": "...Come to America as a bride?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Or..."}
{"id": "924316868", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 7, "text": "Nice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, or their parents would do that. I think there were - in my research, I noticed that a lot of times it was parents who were poor and couldn't figure out, you know, what to do with their daughters"}
{"id": "924316868", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 8, "text": "So how much did your great-great-grandfather pay? Do you have any idea?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "924316868", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 9, "text": "Would that be $75 in today's money or 19th century money?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. So this is a slight bit of poetic license because I don't actually - we don't have any records. I've done a ton of research, and so I'm just basing the $75 on the research that I did on what peopl"}
{"id": "924316868", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 10, "text": "Because $75 then would have been a lot of money.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "924316868", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 11, "text": "So you write that your great-great-grandparents, the women, your great-great-grandmothers, were considered, quote, \"good immigrants.\" Who were considered the bad immigrants at the time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was a lot, yes. I think - I mean, this is based on research that I did. But I think that it - yeah, you would save a lot of money for this type of transaction."}
{"id": "924316868", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 12, "text": "Since President Trump has such strong anti-immigrant rhetoric and attitudes towards certain groups of people - like Mexicans, Muslims - I'm wondering what - you know, you've been studying this", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"good immigrant.\" At the time, the, quote-unquote, \"bad immigrant\" was considered to be an immigrant from China. So there was - there's a huge history of violent discrimination against Chinese immigra"}
{"id": "924316868", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 13, "text": "as an adult and as a teenager - what does the Constitution have to say about who becomes a citizen? And what is it silent about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"good immigrant.\" At the time, the, quote-unquote, \"bad immigrant\" was considered to be an immigrant from China. So there was - there's a huge history of violent discrimination against Chinese immigra"}
{"id": "924316868", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 14, "text": "I think a lot of people have no idea that people who aren't citizens would still have those rights.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Constitution doesn't have much to say about who becomes a citizen. So the 14th Amendment says that any person born on U.S. soil and subject to the jurisdiction thereof is a citizen of the United S"}
{"id": "924316868", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 15, "text": "So I want to move to another chapter of your play and of your life, and this has to do with when you got pregnant at the age of 21.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let's get back to Terry's interview with Heidi Schreck. A filmed version of her play \"What The Constitution Means To Me\" premiers on Amazon Prime today. The play is about what the Constitution meant t"}
{"id": "924316868", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 16, "text": "You weren't - you weren't married. It was somebody in the same theater group that you were in. And this leads you to reflect on how the Constitution has been used to fully legalize birth control and to legalize abortion. Now, you grew up in an abortion-free zone in Washington. What...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "924316868", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 17, "text": "The state of Washington. What did that mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "924316868", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 18, "text": "When you got pregnant when you were 21 and weren't married, you say you couldn't go to Planned Parenthood because your mother's good friend worked there and that you didn't want your mother to know.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So eastern Washington when I was growing up was an abortion-free zone. It just meant there was no clinic within, like, a three-hour radius that performed abortions. There was a Planned Parenthood in m"}
{"id": "924316868", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 19, "text": "Even though your mother was a feminist, you were sure she'd find it very upsetting. And you couldn't go to the pharmacy because you might be recognized there - same problem; it would get back to your mother.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "924316868", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 20, "text": "But you did go to a clinic that advertised, like, free pregnancy testing. But then when you walked in, you realized it's one of those, like, anti-abortion groups?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "924316868", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 21, "text": "So how did you figure that out, like, right away? The people there - the women there were going to try to talk you out of an abortion as opposed to helping you get one.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "924316868", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 22, "text": "So you stayed and then found a place where you could - you stayed for the spiel and then found a place where you could get an abortion.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So I felt it would be rude to leave, which is crazy to think about now. But at that age, I didn't want to be rude to her."}
{"id": "924316868", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 23, "text": "I should mention here that you say you were using birth control when you got pregnant.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I stayed for the spiel and, actually, for the test. And I remember - this is seared into my memory, actually - that, you know, she was - first of all, she was the only person I told, except for "}
{"id": "924316868", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 24, "text": "So this chapter of your life leads you to reflect in your show on how the Constitution was used to fully legalize contraception and then fully legalize abortion. And it's amazing to think about that. It was only in the '70s that birth control was fully legalized in all of the states for single women. An earlier decision, the Griswold v. Connecticut decision in 1965, legalized birth control in all states for married women. But it took years later until single women were included.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "924316868", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 25, "text": "How was the Constitution used to legalize birth control? Because there were places where it was not legal and wasn't necessarily a law that was followed, but it was certainly on the books.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes."}
{"id": "924316868", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 26, "text": "I didn't know this until seeing your play, but the majority decision in Griswold, which upheld the right of married couples to use contraception, was written by Justice William O. Douglass, who - I found this out from your play - at the time, was having an affair with a college student. So what does it say to you that, you know, the decision was written by all white men and that the majority opinion writer was having an affair with...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So, essentially, they sort of decided Roe v. Wade in part by basing it on a doctor's right - a doctor's right to privacy and a doctor's right to do what they believe is right. So this, unfortunately"}
{"id": "924316868", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 27, "text": "I don't know whether they were using contraception or not. But women were in the position, until recently, where decisions about their lives and bodies and power were being decided exclusively, on the Supreme Court level, by men.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So, essentially, they sort of decided Roe v. Wade in part by basing it on a doctor's right - a doctor's right to privacy and a doctor's right to do what they believe is right. So this, unfortunately"}
{"id": "924316868", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 28, "text": "And it was legal in most states at the time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "924316868", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 29, "text": "So I want to get back to your family, your great-great grandmother came here basically as a mail-order bride. She came from Germany to the state of Washington. Your great-grandmother and your grandmother were both married to men who abused them. Your grandmother, Bette, who you knew very well, her first husband died in an accident. He was hit by a falling tree. She remarried a man who physically abused her, who beat her up, who broke bones. And the stepfather - her second husband also sexually abused your mother and your aunt. And you say it was your mother who finally called the police and tried to stop this. How old were you when your mother told you this?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. Let's get back to Terry's interview with Heidi Schreck. A filmed version of her play \"What The Constitution Means To Me\" begins streaming today "}
{"id": "924316868", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 30, "text": "How old was your mother when she called the police?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was 15 years old when my mother told me this. I also just want to say, my aunt was very brave in terms of going to - 'cause she went to a teacher. And she also testified and was very brave about sta"}
{"id": "924316868", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 31, "text": "So when your mother told the police and her stepfather found out, what was his reaction?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mother was 14 years old. Yes."}
{"id": "924316868", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 32, "text": "So he actually put them in a car, took his gun...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "His reaction was to essentially threaten all the kids with a gun, to kidnap them and drive off, shouting that he was going to kill all of them."}
{"id": "924316868", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 33, "text": "...And drove off.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "924316868", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 34, "text": "And then your grandmother called the police, and they came.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "924316868", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 35, "text": "And he was prosecuted. He did 10 years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "924316868", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 36, "text": "So how does this physical and sexual abuse in your family connect to your understanding of the Constitution?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was prosecuted. He - actually - OK, so this has been very interesting for me because I was told a version of the story, and then there's the version of the story I remembered. When I did an intervi"}
{"id": "924316868", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 37, "text": "You were already working on your play \"What The Constitution Means To Me\" during the Brett Kavanaugh hearings. What was your experience of watching Christine Blasey Ford testify to - you know, to the Senate Judiciary Committee?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I grew up believing in the idea of one bad man. There was a bad man in our family who hurt my grandma, hurt my aunts and uncles, deeply hurt my mom. She - you know, her whole life - my mom is an in"}
{"id": "924316868", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 38, "text": "Well, Heidi Schreck, good luck with the show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I remember sitting on the couch watching that, being - I think like many of us were, I felt like an emotional wreck. I found her testimony incredibly powerful. I believed her. I also found it triggeri"}
{"id": "924316868", "date": "2020-10-16", "guest": "Heidi Schreck", "title": "How Women Have Been 'Profoundly' Left Out Of The U.S. Constitution", "question_index": 39, "text": "And thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much."}
{"id": "926139571", "date": "2020-10-21", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "Novelist Sigrid Nunez On Climate Change, Mortality And Life In A Pandemic", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest Sigrid Nunez has written a new novel that's about facing the possible death of our planet from climate change while also dealing with our mortality as individuals. She wrote it before the pandemic, but one of her previous novels was set during a flu pandemic that results in anarchy. The narrator of the new novel is a woman whose ex is a well-known professor and author who's been writing and giving talks about how climate change, bioterrorism, cyberterrorism, the threat of a pandemic, far-right regimes and corporate power are a threat to life, liberty and civilization. He angers audiences by suggesting maybe it's time to stop having children. On a more personal level, the narrator's old friend, a famous writer and intellectual, is dying of cancer and wants her final days to be spent in solitude but wants a friend to be with her. She asked the narrator to be that person. Part of the dying woman's plan is to end her life with a euthanasia drug when she feels the time is right. In a New York Times book review, Janice Lee wrote, in \"What Are You Going Through,\" Nunez tells the simplest of stories about a woman accompanying a terminally ill friend through her last months and expands it into an exploration of the largest themes, nothing less than the realities of living and dying in this world and how we feel about both. Sigrid Nunez received a 2018 National Book Award for her previous novel, \"The Friend.\" She's taught at Princeton and Columbia and currently teaches at Boston University. Sigrid Nunez, welcome back to FRESH AIR. I love the new novel. Thank you for writing it. So I want you to do a short reading from the book. And this is when the friend who's dying from cancer tells the narrator that she wants to go somewhere else to die. And the narrator thinks her friend is just asking her to help her find a nice spot to go to. But her friend describes what she really means, what she really wants. Would you read that excerpt for us?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "926139571", "date": "2020-10-21", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "Novelist Sigrid Nunez On Climate Change, Mortality And Life In A Pandemic", "question_index": 1, "text": "People think of a good death as a death surrounded by family and friends, being lifted up by them, being spoken to, have your hand held, being sung to. The idea of needing solitude - a place that would be peaceful but not be surrounded by things you're attached to or by people you're attached to but just by one person who's there in case, a person who's a friend but not family. You wrote that. Did you understand the sentiment that you were writing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, sure. (Reading) What I really want is to find some quiet place. It doesn't have to be far away. In fact, it shouldn't be too far. And it doesn't have to be anything particularly special, just som"}
{"id": "926139571", "date": "2020-10-21", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "Novelist Sigrid Nunez On Climate Change, Mortality And Life In A Pandemic", "question_index": 2, "text": "So part of your book, the part of it that's about how the world is on the brink", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. I believe I did. I felt that this was a way that a certain kind of person would feel. You know, this character, she has a daughter, but she's estranged from her daughter. And she's single at th"}
{"id": "926139571", "date": "2020-10-21", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "Novelist Sigrid Nunez On Climate Change, Mortality And Life In A Pandemic", "question_index": 3, "text": "- you know, possibly the end of civilization, the end of the planet because of cyberterrorism and bioterrorism and climate change, global warming, a pandemic - you actually wrote the book before the pandemic.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. I believe I did. I felt that this was a way that a certain kind of person would feel. You know, this character, she has a daughter, but she's estranged from her daughter. And she's single at th"}
{"id": "926139571", "date": "2020-10-21", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "Novelist Sigrid Nunez On Climate Change, Mortality And Life In A Pandemic", "question_index": 4, "text": "And it's published just as numbers are really going up again. And you have an earlier novel about an influenza pandemic. What made you want to write about that before we were actually in the middle of one? I mean, it's not the flu, but it is a pandemic.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "926139571", "date": "2020-10-21", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "Novelist Sigrid Nunez On Climate Change, Mortality And Life In A Pandemic", "question_index": 5, "text": "You always knew that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There were a couple of things. One, I am someone who always thought, from what I knew, that sometime in my lifetime there would be another great flu."}
{"id": "926139571", "date": "2020-10-21", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "Novelist Sigrid Nunez On Climate Change, Mortality And Life In A Pandemic", "question_index": 6, "text": "I want to quote something that you write in the book. And I feel the same way", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I always knew that. I mean, I knew that because I was aware of the science that said that it's not a question of if, but when. I mean, that has - that's been well known. And, you know, I would come up"}
{"id": "926139571", "date": "2020-10-21", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "Novelist Sigrid Nunez On Climate Change, Mortality And Life In A Pandemic", "question_index": 7, "text": ". You write, (reading) it amazes me now to think back to when I was an adolescent and to remember how little attention my friends and I paid to one another's parents and grandparents. What could they possibly have to say, these ordinary people, most of whom, if they weren't housewives or retirees, went to work every day at jobs we couldn't imagine being the least bit interesting? It was only later it occurred to me that these were people who'd lived through some of the most dramatic events of the century. They had come of age during periods of upheaval, had endured all types of hardships, had escaped harrowing conditions in foreign countries or in the Deep South, become homeless during the Depression, fought in world wars, been held captive in prisons, survived death camps. I mean, that amazes me, too, especially, like, my grandparents. They were immigrants from shtetls in Eastern Europe and Russia. And I displayed a minimal amount of curiosity. Why do you think that is, that you and I - and probably a lot of other people when they were younger or when they're young now - aren't really interested in what their parents or grandparents or other, you know, older people in their lives experienced?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I always knew that. I mean, I knew that because I was aware of the science that said that it's not a question of if, but when. I mean, that has - that's been well known. And, you know, I would come up"}
{"id": "926139571", "date": "2020-10-21", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "Novelist Sigrid Nunez On Climate Change, Mortality And Life In A Pandemic", "question_index": 8, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Sigrid Nunez. Her new novel is called \"What Are You Going Through.\" We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's pretty much universal. I think it's about being a young person because I cannot think of anybody for whom this wouldn't be true. I mean, you know, when you think back just - not just abou"}
{"id": "926139571", "date": "2020-10-21", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "Novelist Sigrid Nunez On Climate Change, Mortality And Life In A Pandemic", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Sigrid Nunez. Her new novel, \"What Are You Going Through,\" is told from the point of view of a nameless narrator, a woman who's asked by her old friend to live with her in her final days or weeks as she dies from cancer. Nunez's previous novel, \"The Friend,\" won a 2018 National Book Award. Your new novel, \"What Are You Going Through,\" starts with a quote from Simone Weil. And the quote is, \"The love of our neighbor, in all its fullness, simply means being able to say to him, what are you going through?\" But the original French has a slightly different meaning. Tell us what the original French says. She was French and wrote in French. And then tell us why that quote is so meaningful to you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's pretty much universal. I think it's about being a young person because I cannot think of anybody for whom this wouldn't be true. I mean, you know, when you think back just - not just abou"}
{"id": "926139571", "date": "2020-10-21", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "Novelist Sigrid Nunez On Climate Change, Mortality And Life In A Pandemic", "question_index": 10, "text": "You quote Henry James, the writer, as having said, there are two kinds of people in the world - those who upon seeing someone else suffering think, that could happen to me, and those who think, that will never happen to me. The first kind of people help us endure. The second kind make life hell. Your thoughts about that", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in French, she wrote - quel est ton tourment? - which would literally translate as, what is your torment? But, of course, that doesn't make sense in English. I mean, you know, that - you don't t"}
{"id": "926139571", "date": "2020-10-21", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "Novelist Sigrid Nunez On Climate Change, Mortality And Life In A Pandemic", "question_index": 11, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in French, she wrote - quel est ton tourment? - which would literally translate as, what is your torment? But, of course, that doesn't make sense in English. I mean, you know, that - you don't t"}
{"id": "926139571", "date": "2020-10-21", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "Novelist Sigrid Nunez On Climate Change, Mortality And Life In A Pandemic", "question_index": 12, "text": "I want to ask you a little bit about your relationship with the writer, essayist, intellectual Susan Sontag, who was really as much as somebody can be a celebrity intellectual, she was in the '70s and '80s and '90s and - in the '60s too, should we say? And you knew her. You worked with her. And then you also were a couple with her son, David Rieff, for a while. How did you first meet, and what impact did she have on you as a writer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "have in the text is that the narrator's been thinking about something else that Henry James had said. And then she thinks what you just read. And so the narrator says, someone, maybe or - maybe Henry "}
{"id": "926139571", "date": "2020-10-21", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "Novelist Sigrid Nunez On Climate Change, Mortality And Life In A Pandemic", "question_index": 13, "text": "Was it important to you to have a mentor like that who was a woman? Because there weren't as many well-known women writers at the time as there are now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I met Susan Sontag because I was an editorial assistant at The New York Review of Books. And that was in between college and grad school. And so I met her in passing there. But then after I grad"}
{"id": "926139571", "date": "2020-10-21", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "Novelist Sigrid Nunez On Climate Change, Mortality And Life In A Pandemic", "question_index": 14, "text": "Let me introduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Sigrid Nunez. Her new novel is called \"What Are You Going Through.\" We'll talk more after a break. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely, yeah. I mean, that was also a really important part of it because that was, you know - because the idea was part of her mentoring was also don't let people influence you in such a way to m"}
{"id": "926139571", "date": "2020-10-21", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "Novelist Sigrid Nunez On Climate Change, Mortality And Life In A Pandemic", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with writer Sigrid Nunez. Her new novel, \"What Are You Going Through,\" is about a woman whose friend is dying of cancer. The friend wants solitude in her final days but wants the narrator of the story to live with her during that time in case everything goes wrong. Part of the dying woman's plan is to end her life with pills when she feels it's time. The narrator's ex is a famous writer who's been writing about how the threats of climate change, a pandemic, terrorism, corporate power, far-right regimes and more are leading to the end of civilization. Nunez's previous novel, \"The Friend\" won a 2018 National Book Award. When we left off, we were talking about her mentor and friend Susan Sontag. You had said in an interview that you figured out you didn't want to be famous by watching how fame had affected Susan Sontag's life and the responsibilities that came with fame. So what were some of the things that you saw that convinced you you didn't really want to be as famous as she was?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely, yeah. I mean, that was also a really important part of it because that was, you know - because the idea was part of her mentoring was also don't let people influence you in such a way to m"}
{"id": "926139571", "date": "2020-10-21", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "Novelist Sigrid Nunez On Climate Change, Mortality And Life In A Pandemic", "question_index": 16, "text": "Your parents, were they both immigrants?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". You could be left quite alone. And, you know - and I knew of or knew other writers who, even though they were publishing and they were successful, they didn't have anything like her celebrity. And t"}
{"id": "926139571", "date": "2020-10-21", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "Novelist Sigrid Nunez On Climate Change, Mortality And Life In A Pandemic", "question_index": 17, "text": "And your father was part-Chinese, part-Panamanian.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, they were."}
{"id": "926139571", "date": "2020-10-21", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "Novelist Sigrid Nunez On Climate Change, Mortality And Life In A Pandemic", "question_index": 18, "text": "So what was it like for you having parents from different cultures?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And my mother was German."}
{"id": "926139571", "date": "2020-10-21", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "Novelist Sigrid Nunez On Climate Change, Mortality And Life In A Pandemic", "question_index": 19, "text": "Was it confusing to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it was a strange marriage and strange for the three of us, the three children in that household, because very often with an immigrant family, the immigrant parents are both from the same cou"}
{"id": "926139571", "date": "2020-10-21", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "Novelist Sigrid Nunez On Climate Change, Mortality And Life In A Pandemic", "question_index": 20, "text": "Did your father grew up in China or Panama?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was. It was very confusing. It was very confusing. And in fact, many people, their first book is autobiographical - many writers. And I've always thought that that's because the writer has to get c"}
{"id": "926139571", "date": "2020-10-21", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "Novelist Sigrid Nunez On Climate Change, Mortality And Life In A Pandemic", "question_index": 21, "text": "So why does your mother leave Germany and come to the U.S. - since she was so attached to Germany and wanted you to be raised, like, in a German way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My father was born in Panama, but he spent his boyhood - most of his boyhood in Shanghai. And then he came to the United States and ended up living in Brooklyn. But there's so much about my father's l"}
{"id": "926139571", "date": "2020-10-21", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "Novelist Sigrid Nunez On Climate Change, Mortality And Life In A Pandemic", "question_index": 22, "text": "My impression is that they weren't, like, terribly close. Did your mother resent having come to the U.S. and regret the marriage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This was this was after World War II. This was after Germany's defeat. My father was in the Army, and he was stationed in southern Germany. And that's where he met my mother. And, you know, as I say, "}
{"id": "926139571", "date": "2020-10-21", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "Novelist Sigrid Nunez On Climate Change, Mortality And Life In A Pandemic", "question_index": 23, "text": "I want to get back to your new novel, \"What Are You Going Through,\" in which the narrator is asked by an old friend to be with her while the friend is experiencing her last, you know, weeks dying of cancer. And, you know, the friend who's dying has a daughter, but they are not close. They fight all the time. And the friend who's dying doesn't even want her daughter around. The narrator, who is asked to spend time with the friend who's dying, is not married and has no children. You're not married and you have no children. Have you thought a lot about the future, you know, like when you're dying, like, people want their - people who are parents, they want their children by their bedside, their spouse, if they have one, by their bedside. Have you thought about, like, who will be there for me when I'm dying? Because I know that that's a question a lot of people who don't have children, whether they couldn't and - or whether they decided not to, it's a question they often ask themselves, and also people who are single, whether they lost their spouse or never had a spouse.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She did. She never got over her homesickness, and she never felt really at home in the United States - at least during the time that we were growing up. I mean, she lived to her mid-'90s. And so, you "}
{"id": "926139571", "date": "2020-10-21", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "Novelist Sigrid Nunez On Climate Change, Mortality And Life In A Pandemic", "question_index": 24, "text": "Sigrid Nunez, a pleasure to talk with you again. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's something that I have thought about. And this is where, you know, I do have, you know, I have family. I don't have children. And I am single. But I, you know, I'm close to my nephew and his"}
{"id": "926139571", "date": "2020-10-21", "guest": "Sigrid Nunez", "title": "Novelist Sigrid Nunez On Climate Change, Mortality And Life In A Pandemic", "question_index": 25, "text": "Sigrid Nunez is the author of the new novel, \"What Are You Going Through.\" After we take a short break, Lloyd Schwartz will review a new double CD collecting excerpts of live performances by Leontyne Price, the first Black soprano to have a major career at the Metropolitan Opera. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you so much for having me."}
{"id": "926165577", "date": "2020-10-23", "guest": "Timothy Leary", "title": "'Fresh Air' Reflects On The Psychedelic Movement", "question_index": 0, "text": "Timothy Leary, I want to welcome you to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, editor of the website TV Worth Watching, sitting in for Terry Gross. Today, we're marking the centennial of the birth of psychologist Timothy Leary, considered "}
{"id": "926165577", "date": "2020-10-23", "guest": "Timothy Leary", "title": "'Fresh Air' Reflects On The Psychedelic Movement", "question_index": 1, "text": "Your initial experience or initial way of working with psychedelic drugs was as a researcher. What exactly were you trying to find out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Happy to be here."}
{"id": "926165577", "date": "2020-10-23", "guest": "Timothy Leary", "title": "'Fresh Air' Reflects On The Psychedelic Movement", "question_index": 2, "text": "What was the turning point for Harvard where they decided that this wasn't such a good idea for them, and they'd better disaffiliate with you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was a psychologist in 1960. I had written a couple of books on psychodiagnosis and evaluation of psychotherapy. And I discovered what almost everyone else had discovered, that talk therapy jus"}
{"id": "926165577", "date": "2020-10-23", "guest": "Timothy Leary", "title": "'Fresh Air' Reflects On The Psychedelic Movement", "question_index": 3, "text": "How lasting in your own life did you find the peak high experiences to be? Like, when you'd have a really good trip and would feel a very joyous experience and feel a very mystical experience, how much of it did it last, and how much was integrated after the trip ended?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we all realized that the university, which is either tax-supported or - of course, Harvard University is - it's a training school for the elite to go down to Washington or to Wall Street to run,"}
{"id": "926165577", "date": "2020-10-23", "guest": "Timothy Leary", "title": "'Fresh Air' Reflects On The Psychedelic Movement", "question_index": 4, "text": "When you started turning people on in the early '60s, you would do it under pretty controlled circumstances. You were there to be a guide. You had done it a lot of times before and knew somewhat of what to expect. Of course, everybody would react differently. But you'd be able to understand their reaction and if they were having a bad trip, to help them with it and if they were having a good one to, you know, help them enjoy themselves or develop whatever it was they were thinking about. When psychedelic drugs started spreading later on in the '60s, there wasn't - there were some people who had guides and other people who were really less informed about what to do and how to handle the new experience that they'd be having. What did you think about then? Like, what did you think about the multitude", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a hard question to answer because during a mushroom trip or a peyote trip or an LSD trip, your brain is zinging along at about a million miles an hour. And literally - even if you've been high "}
{"id": "926165577", "date": "2020-10-23", "guest": "Timothy Leary", "title": "'Fresh Air' Reflects On The Psychedelic Movement", "question_index": 5, "text": "of people taking it, some of them not really understanding the power of the experience that was about to happen to them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a hard question to answer because during a mushroom trip or a peyote trip or an LSD trip, your brain is zinging along at about a million miles an hour. And literally - even if you've been high "}
{"id": "926165577", "date": "2020-10-23", "guest": "Timothy Leary", "title": "'Fresh Air' Reflects On The Psychedelic Movement", "question_index": 6, "text": "People always speculate about what the effects are of taking a lot of psychedelics. And, probably, you're one of the best-equipped people in the country to respond to that. You've probably done more than, really, about anybody else has. People always wonder, you know, if their memory loss is a result of drugs that they've done or whatever. You know, what do you think? Judging from your own experience, do you have any physical or psychological - I'm not talking about spiritual things, you know? But...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we were - first of all, were shocked to see that this was happening, and we were disturbed. No. 1, of course, is the problem that they weren't taking LSD. There was no legal LSD in this country "}
{"id": "926165577", "date": "2020-10-23", "guest": "Timothy Leary", "title": "'Fresh Air' Reflects On The Psychedelic Movement", "question_index": 7, "text": "I want to thank you very, very much for speaking with us. Thanks for being here.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's impossible to answer that question. I'm 62 years old. I'm one of the most active 62-year-old you'll ever find. And I've just got a bestselling book out. And people can read that and jud"}
{"id": "926165577", "date": "2020-10-23", "guest": "Timothy Leary", "title": "'Fresh Air' Reflects On The Psychedelic Movement", "question_index": 8, "text": "Let's go back to the early '60s, when you were Richard Alpert. And you were a professor of psychology...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're marking the centennial of the birth of psychologist Timothy Leary, considered the father of the psychedelic movement of the 1960s and its experiments with mind-altering drugs."}
{"id": "926165577", "date": "2020-10-23", "guest": "Timothy Leary", "title": "'Fresh Air' Reflects On The Psychedelic Movement", "question_index": 9, "text": "...At Harvard University and were one of the first people, and one of the very first East Coast people, to start experimenting with LSD. What use were you putting it to in your official capacity in the university?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "926165577", "date": "2020-10-23", "guest": "Timothy Leary", "title": "'Fresh Air' Reflects On The Psychedelic Movement", "question_index": 10, "text": "So you started using LSD as part of your academic research.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm a research psychologist. And that's a study of the mind - psyche logos. And these chemicals are incredible in overriding habitual ways of seeing the universe and allowing a fresh way of perc"}
{"id": "926165577", "date": "2020-10-23", "guest": "Timothy Leary", "title": "'Fresh Air' Reflects On The Psychedelic Movement", "question_index": 11, "text": "But once you started actually taking LSD yourself, that academic research no longer seemed relevant?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "926165577", "date": "2020-10-23", "guest": "Timothy Leary", "title": "'Fresh Air' Reflects On The Psychedelic Movement", "question_index": 12, "text": "You and Timothy Leary at Harvard started using LSD, and then Ken Kesey on the West Coast started using it, I think in very different ways, in a different setting. Did you have any conflicts with Kesey about what LSD should mean in the society, how it should be used?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'll tell you, it was, because we did studies to show - and I think that it's painful to me that - our zeal to say no to drugs. We have not differentiated between the tryptamines, for example, t"}
{"id": "926165577", "date": "2020-10-23", "guest": "Timothy Leary", "title": "'Fresh Air' Reflects On The Psychedelic Movement", "question_index": 13, "text": "...Who should be taking it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we were..."}
{"id": "926165577", "date": "2020-10-23", "guest": "Timothy Leary", "title": "'Fresh Air' Reflects On The Psychedelic Movement", "question_index": 14, "text": "So you still regret that that research wasn't given a chance.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Somewhere in the middle because there were - I mean, we had Aldous Huxley and Alan Watts and all these people - there was a community of us that were researching. And in a way, we were saying, let'"}
{"id": "926165577", "date": "2020-10-23", "guest": "Timothy Leary", "title": "'Fresh Air' Reflects On The Psychedelic Movement", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well, eventually you went to India, studied with a teacher who became your spiritual teacher. Can you tell us something about him and about the kind of spiritual path you took with him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I regret it even now. I think it would be wonderful - not ours, not us. But, I mean, there are a lot of other people that could do research now."}
{"id": "926165577", "date": "2020-10-23", "guest": "Timothy Leary", "title": "'Fresh Air' Reflects On The Psychedelic Movement", "question_index": 16, "text": "I want to ask you a question about your father. He died in the past year. You had been living with him when you weren't on the road and helping to take care of him. He - I don't know how he was when he died. But at one point in his life, he was a wealthy man. Was there an inheritance? And how did you decide to use it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, meeting him was - the power of that initially was that everything that I took LSD to touch in my being, I realized he was. In fact, he actually took 900 micrograms of LSD and nothing happened to"}
{"id": "926165577", "date": "2020-10-23", "guest": "Timothy Leary", "title": "'Fresh Air' Reflects On The Psychedelic Movement", "question_index": 17, "text": "So you never told him that you weren't going to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My guru said to me early on, he said, your father has money? I said, yes. He said, he going to leave it to you? I said, well, he's going to leave me a portion of it. He said, you're not to accept your"}
{"id": "926165577", "date": "2020-10-23", "guest": "Timothy Leary", "title": "'Fresh Air' Reflects On The Psychedelic Movement", "question_index": 18, "text": "...Personally accept it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "926165577", "date": "2020-10-23", "guest": "Timothy Leary", "title": "'Fresh Air' Reflects On The Psychedelic Movement", "question_index": 19, "text": "So you thought it was OK to not tell him the complete truth about this it sounds like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I felt that that would be hurting him."}
{"id": "926165577", "date": "2020-10-23", "guest": "Timothy Leary", "title": "'Fresh Air' Reflects On The Psychedelic Movement", "question_index": 20, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "926165577", "date": "2020-10-23", "guest": "Timothy Leary", "title": "'Fresh Air' Reflects On The Psychedelic Movement", "question_index": 21, "text": "Not wanting something from you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He just assumed. But there was some subtle thing that happened between us because the minute my guru said that, that money no longer was mine. And in some deep, psychological way, that changed my rela"}
{"id": "926165577", "date": "2020-10-23", "guest": "Timothy Leary", "title": "'Fresh Air' Reflects On The Psychedelic Movement", "question_index": 22, "text": "...That's what you said you felt towards...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "926165577", "date": "2020-10-23", "guest": "Timothy Leary", "title": "'Fresh Air' Reflects On The Psychedelic Movement", "question_index": 23, "text": "...Your teacher that he didn't want anything from you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "926165577", "date": "2020-10-23", "guest": "Timothy Leary", "title": "'Fresh Air' Reflects On The Psychedelic Movement", "question_index": 24, "text": "That was very important to you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "926165577", "date": "2020-10-23", "guest": "Timothy Leary", "title": "'Fresh Air' Reflects On The Psychedelic Movement", "question_index": 25, "text": "Thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's quite an art, isn't it? Yeah, it's quite an art."}
{"id": "926165577", "date": "2020-10-23", "guest": "Timothy Leary", "title": "'Fresh Air' Reflects On The Psychedelic Movement", "question_index": 26, "text": "So looking at how psychedelics are being used in research today, let's start with depression. How are psychedelics being used to try to treat depression? And we should preface this by saying there's a lot of frustration now about antidepressants.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross. Today, we're marking the centennial of the birth of psychologist Timothy Leary, who led influential research in the 1960s into psychedelic d"}
{"id": "926165577", "date": "2020-10-23", "guest": "Timothy Leary", "title": "'Fresh Air' Reflects On The Psychedelic Movement", "question_index": 27, "text": "Does the therapist talk with you during during this experience?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And that's part of the story. I didn't realize until I started working on this book how broken mental health care and treatment is in this country and that we really haven't had a big innovation"}
{"id": "926165577", "date": "2020-10-23", "guest": "Timothy Leary", "title": "'Fresh Air' Reflects On The Psychedelic Movement", "question_index": 28, "text": "Is one of the premises of this kind of treatment for depression that when you're depressed, you get caught up in these cycles of thought and these like, tape, loops of telling yourself negative things and seeing the world in negative ways and that, through the use of a psychedelic, that you're going to almost be forced to perceive things differently, thus opening up the door into a new way of thinking?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. The therapist says very little. It's a very non-interventionist kind of thing 'cause the theory is that you'll go where you need to go. You'll have the kind of trip you need. So, for example, if"}
{"id": "926165577", "date": "2020-10-23", "guest": "Timothy Leary", "title": "'Fresh Air' Reflects On The Psychedelic Movement", "question_index": 29, "text": "So we were talking about the use of psychedelics in treating depression and anxiety. There are also research projects now using psychedelics with people who have terminal cancer, and they're in - they're facing their death, and they're very anxious about it. So how are psychedelics being used in that setting?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2018 interview with Michael Pollan. He's the author of the book \"How To Change Your Mind,\" which examined the history and current uses of psychedelics."}
{"id": "926165577", "date": "2020-10-23", "guest": "Timothy Leary", "title": "'Fresh Air' Reflects On The Psychedelic Movement", "question_index": 30, "text": "What you described that this person experienced on the hallucinogenic sounds like a lot of near-death experiences that other people have described where you see that death isn't going to be terrible, that there's some kind of peaceful beyond that you'll be going to, but you still have work to do in this world so that you come back from that near-death experience. This is what I've read. This is what I've heard that some people have reported. And it's very similar to what you've just said.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So far, the most exciting trial, I think, has been giving it to people with life-changing diagnoses. They're not all terminal, but many of them are. And I spent a lot of time telling the story of a ma"}
{"id": "926165577", "date": "2020-10-23", "guest": "Timothy Leary", "title": "'Fresh Air' Reflects On The Psychedelic Movement", "question_index": 31, "text": "So as part of the research for your book, \"How To Change Your Mind,\" about psychedelics, you wanted to try them yourself. Tell us about the most meaningful psilocybin - was it psilocybin...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And we don't know what to do with that. There's no way to to prove this, obviously. And it was a question that really troubled me as an old-fashioned materialist, skeptical journalist. It's like"}
{"id": "926165577", "date": "2020-10-23", "guest": "Timothy Leary", "title": "'Fresh Air' Reflects On The Psychedelic Movement", "question_index": 32, "text": "...That you took? Just tell us first what advice you got beforehand.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, psilocybin."}
{"id": "926165577", "date": "2020-10-23", "guest": "Timothy Leary", "title": "'Fresh Air' Reflects On The Psychedelic Movement", "question_index": 33, "text": "Was it electronic music you were listening to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I worked with a guide that I call Mary in the book who was an incredibly empathetic, compassionate therapist. I had to fill out lots of medical forms. I had to fill out an autobiographical state"}
{"id": "926165577", "date": "2020-10-23", "guest": "Timothy Leary", "title": "'Fresh Air' Reflects On The Psychedelic Movement", "question_index": 34, "text": "So far, this is not sounding like a great trip.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's interesting. I thought it was electronic music. It turned out not to be, but it sounded like electronica, and it put me in this computer space. The other reason, though, I entered a compute"}
{"id": "926165577", "date": "2020-10-23", "guest": "Timothy Leary", "title": "'Fresh Air' Reflects On The Psychedelic Movement", "question_index": 35, "text": "So how did it turn? Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's interesting. I thought it was electronic music. It turned out not to be, but it sounded like electronica, and it put me in this computer space. The other reason, though, I entered a compute"}
{"id": "926165577", "date": "2020-10-23", "guest": "Timothy Leary", "title": "'Fresh Air' Reflects On The Psychedelic Movement", "question_index": 36, "text": "You've had - you had these experiences - I don't know when your last trip was, but do you still feel transformed in some way by it? Or does that seem more like a memory of how something once was different but no longer is for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It turned - it turned about now. After the booster shot, I found myself in this place where I could no longer control my perceptions at all. And I felt my sense of self scatter to the wind, almost as "}
{"id": "926165577", "date": "2020-10-23", "guest": "Timothy Leary", "title": "'Fresh Air' Reflects On The Psychedelic Movement", "question_index": 37, "text": "By better you mean more meaningful, more deeply felt?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, I mean, you do refer back to the memories. They're useful. They're kind of in your archive. They're very vivid. And you can refer back to certain images or experiences and use them that wa"}
{"id": "928644025", "date": "2020-10-28", "guest": "Mike Giglio", "title": "After Covering Civil War Overseas, Journalist Examines U.S. Militia Movement", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Police departments are preparing for the possibility of violence on Election Day. Some pro-Trump, far-right militants are preparing for the possibility of civil war. My guest Mike Giglio writes about one such militant group, the Oath Keepers, that he says has tapped into a deep current of anxiety that could cause a surprisingly large contingent of people with real police and military experience to consider armed, political violence. Giglio got access to a leaked database of the Oath Keepers membership from 2009 to 2015. Nearly 25,000 people were on that list. About two-thirds of them had a background in the military or law enforcement. About 10% was active duty. Giglio spent several months interviewing current and former members of the group, trying to understand their motivations and how serious they were about taking up arms. He also interviewed the group's founder and leader Stewart Rhodes, who has warned crowds to be ready for war. This is a prospect that Giglio finds especially disturbing because he's covered civil wars in Syria, Ukraine and Iraq and has witnessed the suffering they've caused. He's also the author of a book about ISIS called \"Shatter The Nations.\" His article about the Oath Keepers is in the November issue of The Atlantic. Mike Giglio, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "928644025", "date": "2020-10-28", "guest": "Mike Giglio", "title": "After Covering Civil War Overseas, Journalist Examines U.S. Militia Movement", "question_index": 1, "text": "You spoke to many current and former members of the Oath Keepers. Are they preparing in case there is a civil war? Or do they want to start a civil war?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having me."}
{"id": "928644025", "date": "2020-10-28", "guest": "Mike Giglio", "title": "After Covering Civil War Overseas, Journalist Examines U.S. Militia Movement", "question_index": 2, "text": "Who do they think is going to start the civil war?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's more the former. So they believe that there's a very strong likelihood of civil violence in America. And, you know, they've been prepping for this in their minds, in some cases, since the group s"}
{"id": "928644025", "date": "2020-10-28", "guest": "Mike Giglio", "title": "After Covering Civil War Overseas, Journalist Examines U.S. Militia Movement", "question_index": 3, "text": "So some of them see signs that a civil war is inevitable. What are some of the other signs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In their view, the political left, antifa, leftist agitators. If you speak with some of them, they have a very dire view that says that maybe it already started on a smaller scale. So they are casting"}
{"id": "928644025", "date": "2020-10-28", "guest": "Mike Giglio", "title": "After Covering Civil War Overseas, Journalist Examines U.S. Militia Movement", "question_index": 4, "text": "It's interesting that they're so pro-Trump in the sense that you think of the far-right, militant groups as being anti-government. But this group is so pro-Trump, and he's the president.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If you think about their worldview, it holds that the federal government and state governments will seek to use almost tyrannical power to control the population. So the mandates that came down from t"}
{"id": "928644025", "date": "2020-10-28", "guest": "Mike Giglio", "title": "After Covering Civil War Overseas, Journalist Examines U.S. Militia Movement", "question_index": 5, "text": "Why is a relatively large percentage of the group comprised of current and former members of the police and the military?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's actually an important point. This is the first time that militant groups like this have had someone in the White House that they fully support. They were really skeptical of the first George Bush"}
{"id": "928644025", "date": "2020-10-28", "guest": "Mike Giglio", "title": "After Covering Civil War Overseas, Journalist Examines U.S. Militia Movement", "question_index": 6, "text": "So how did Stewart Rhodes, the founder of the Oath Keepers, go about recruiting current and former members of the police and military?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Oath Keepers are unique - and this is the reason that I decided to focus on them - in that they expressly recruit and focus on people with military and police experience. They - that's how they bu"}
{"id": "928644025", "date": "2020-10-28", "guest": "Mike Giglio", "title": "After Covering Civil War Overseas, Journalist Examines U.S. Militia Movement", "question_index": 7, "text": "I'm trying to think about whether the fact that there are a lot of current and former people from the military and law enforcement who believe this, that there might be a civil war, they might have to take up arms - do you think that they would have more control because they were professionals or that they would be more zealous because they really - they're trained to use weapons.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the most effective thing that he did was when he founded the group, you know, it started out as just a blog campaign. He's a - he was a very prolific blogger beforehand, a libertarian blogger."}
{"id": "928644025", "date": "2020-10-28", "guest": "Mike Giglio", "title": "After Covering Civil War Overseas, Journalist Examines U.S. Militia Movement", "question_index": 8, "text": "It's interesting because what you just said about the people who didn't see combat, that holds true for the founder of the group, Stewart Rhodes. He wanted to be in the Special Forces. He wanted to be a Green Beret. But in a parachute exercise, he injured his spine and couldn't serve any longer. So he - would you put him in that category as somebody who never saw combat but wanted to and was frustrated by that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, there is a stereotype of the regular, let's say, militia member in America - someone who's an armchair warrior, probably has no experience in the military. They talk about civil war because "}
{"id": "928644025", "date": "2020-10-28", "guest": "Mike Giglio", "title": "After Covering Civil War Overseas, Journalist Examines U.S. Militia Movement", "question_index": 9, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Mike Giglio. His article about the Oath Keepers is in the November issue of The Atlantic. We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's true. He never did see combat. And he wanted to be in the Special Forces, which is this elite part of the U.S. military that goes overseas. And one of their core missions is actually go"}
{"id": "928644025", "date": "2020-10-28", "guest": "Mike Giglio", "title": "After Covering Civil War Overseas, Journalist Examines U.S. Militia Movement", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Mike Giglio about his article in the current issue of The Atlantic on the Oath Keepers, a far-right militant group that supports Trump and is preparing for the possibility of civil war. Many current and former members of the group have experience in the military or police. The group was founded in 2009 by Stewart Rhodes. So we've talked a little bit about what the Oath Keepers believe in and the possibility of civil war that they're preparing for. What are some of the things the group has actually done so far?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's true. He never did see combat. And he wanted to be in the Special Forces, which is this elite part of the U.S. military that goes overseas. And one of their core missions is actually go"}
{"id": "928644025", "date": "2020-10-28", "guest": "Mike Giglio", "title": "After Covering Civil War Overseas, Journalist Examines U.S. Militia Movement", "question_index": 11, "text": "So what did he see through his eyes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They are most famous for having a team of people who went to the protests in Ferguson, Mo., after Michael Brown's killing. And they went with their AR-15-style rifles, and they patrolled the crowds, a"}
{"id": "928644025", "date": "2020-10-28", "guest": "Mike Giglio", "title": "After Covering Civil War Overseas, Journalist Examines U.S. Militia Movement", "question_index": 12, "text": "What are some of the ways that you think President Trump has enabled militant far-right groups like the Oath Keepers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He thought that he was there for the public good. He thought - you know, he's been defined by that photo, and I think he struggled with that. But in his mind, they were protecting the community. And, "}
{"id": "928644025", "date": "2020-10-28", "guest": "Mike Giglio", "title": "After Covering Civil War Overseas, Journalist Examines U.S. Militia Movement", "question_index": 13, "text": "When Trump calls Biden a socialist, does that feed the far-right narrative? Because I think one of the things - one of the signs that the militant groups are looking for is, like, is America becoming a socialist country? And if it is, it's time to take up arms.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think what the president says and what his allies say really means a lot. And one thing I found is that the Oath Keepers and the part of the militant right that they represent are listening very clo"}
{"id": "928644025", "date": "2020-10-28", "guest": "Mike Giglio", "title": "After Covering Civil War Overseas, Journalist Examines U.S. Militia Movement", "question_index": 14, "text": "You know, I find this so interesting because Trump's - as you say, Trump speaks their language. How does Trump know their language? Trump was not, like, a politically ideological person, as far as I know, before he started campaigning. And his concerns were his - you know, related to his business and to winning and to making money and getting ratings, you know, not dog whistles to the far right. So do you think he's - do you think he understands the code that he's speaking in? And do you think he learned it from somebody who serves as an adviser to him or writes speeches for him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a good point. You know, since they were founded in 2009, that's been what they've been talking about. Socialism is coming and, with that, tyranny. That's been what they say. That's how they see"}
{"id": "928644025", "date": "2020-10-28", "guest": "Mike Giglio", "title": "After Covering Civil War Overseas, Journalist Examines U.S. Militia Movement", "question_index": 15, "text": "Let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Mike Giglio. His article about the Oath Keepers is in the November issue of The Atlantic. We'll talk more after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's a good question, and I think that there are elements of Trump's politics that overlap with what the militant right was saying even years ago. So Trump was - almost made his political name"}
{"id": "928644025", "date": "2020-10-28", "guest": "Mike Giglio", "title": "After Covering Civil War Overseas, Journalist Examines U.S. Militia Movement", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Mike Giglio about his article in the current issue of The Atlantic - also online, of course - on the Oath Keepers, a far-right militant group that supports Trump and is preparing for the possibility of civil war. Many current and former members of the group have experience in the military or police. The group was founded in 2009 by Stewart Rhodes. Let's talk about the Oath Keepers founder, Stewart Rhodes. What is his background?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's a good question, and I think that there are elements of Trump's politics that overlap with what the militant right was saying even years ago. So Trump was - almost made his political name"}
{"id": "928644025", "date": "2020-10-28", "guest": "Mike Giglio", "title": "After Covering Civil War Overseas, Journalist Examines U.S. Militia Movement", "question_index": 17, "text": "So he - you know, he blinds himself in a gun accident in 1993 and doesn't start becoming an activist for gun safety. He becomes an activist preparing for armed civil war. His own life experience almost contradicts what he's about because, you know, one of the basic precepts of his group is that - is gun rights.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He joined the military right out of high school in the 1980s, and he wanted to be a Green Beret, which is the most elite - one of the most elite branches of the U.S. military. But he never made it the"}
{"id": "928644025", "date": "2020-10-28", "guest": "Mike Giglio", "title": "After Covering Civil War Overseas, Journalist Examines U.S. Militia Movement", "question_index": 18, "text": "Oh, I see. So you say he sees it as a sign of his strength as a believer in the Second Amendment.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In a way, it shows how committed he is to the idea of gun rights, that it didn't make him question his work with firearms."}
{"id": "928644025", "date": "2020-10-28", "guest": "Mike Giglio", "title": "After Covering Civil War Overseas, Journalist Examines U.S. Militia Movement", "question_index": 19, "text": "Rhodes doesn't want the Oath Keepers to be called a militia or to have its members be called white nationalists. He doesn't want to be labeled as racist. In reality, is the group white nationalist and racist? Are they a militia?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I actually - no, it's a good question that you're raising. I haven't actually asked him, you know, whether he considered moving away from guns after that. Just my own interpretation of it is, you know"}
{"id": "928644025", "date": "2020-10-28", "guest": "Mike Giglio", "title": "After Covering Civil War Overseas, Journalist Examines U.S. Militia Movement", "question_index": 20, "text": "So by using the word Marxist for some of these groups, some of the individuals in the groups, it's a way of saying they're not even American, so we have a right to take up arms. They're not us. They're others. They're embracing a foreign ideology. Therefore, they're foreign, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had a number of conversations with Stewart and with members of the Oath Keepers about the white nationalism label, and they didn't just reject the label, they criticized white nationalism. They said"}
{"id": "928644025", "date": "2020-10-28", "guest": "Mike Giglio", "title": "After Covering Civil War Overseas, Journalist Examines U.S. Militia Movement", "question_index": 21, "text": "That is a very disturbing statement. And I think it was at a recruiting rally that he made that statement about how, at some point, we're going to have to kill these kids.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If you look at the way that Stewart Rhodes presents the protesters, at least the leaders of the protesters, he's saying this is part of an insurrection and we need to be part of putting down that insu"}
{"id": "928644025", "date": "2020-10-28", "guest": "Mike Giglio", "title": "After Covering Civil War Overseas, Journalist Examines U.S. Militia Movement", "question_index": 22, "text": "Well, let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Mike Giglio. His article about the Oath Keepers is in the November issue of The Atlantic. We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. At the same meeting where he was trying to say, we need to organize to defend against this insurrection and push back against the protests and the riots and antifa and Black Lives Matter."}
{"id": "928644025", "date": "2020-10-28", "guest": "Mike Giglio", "title": "After Covering Civil War Overseas, Journalist Examines U.S. Militia Movement", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Mike Giglio about his article in The Atlantic on the Oath Keepers, a far-right militant group that supports Trump and is preparing for the possibility of a civil war. Many current and former members of the group have experience in the military or police. The group was founded in 2009 by Stewart Rhodes. It sounds like the Oath Keepers might be in disarray. They've lost some members. People who know Rhodes told you that his behavior had become erratic. He was disbarred, I think, in 2015. In 2018, his wife petitioned for an order of protection during divorce proceedings, alleging he'd once grabbed their daughter by the throat and had a habit during marital arguments of waving a pistol in the air before putting it to his head. So what's the state of the Oath Keepers now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. At the same meeting where he was trying to say, we need to organize to defend against this insurrection and push back against the protests and the riots and antifa and Black Lives Matter."}
{"id": "928644025", "date": "2020-10-28", "guest": "Mike Giglio", "title": "After Covering Civil War Overseas, Journalist Examines U.S. Militia Movement", "question_index": 24, "text": "What do you think some of those anxieties are that are attracting people to militant groups and to the belief that civil war is a possibility and maybe it's time to prepare?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I spoke to a number of people who had left who told me that there was just a great deal of dysfunction in the way that the group was run. And I think, you know, one thing I tried to make clear in the "}
{"id": "928644025", "date": "2020-10-28", "guest": "Mike Giglio", "title": "After Covering Civil War Overseas, Journalist Examines U.S. Militia Movement", "question_index": 25, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Mike Giglio. His article about the Oath Keepers is in the November issue of The Atlantic. We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One thing that I learned overseas covering civil wars is that the first step down that path is convincing yourself that the other side is bent on your destruction, is convincing yourself that they do "}
{"id": "928644025", "date": "2020-10-28", "guest": "Mike Giglio", "title": "After Covering Civil War Overseas, Journalist Examines U.S. Militia Movement", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Mike Giglio about his article in The Atlantic on the Oath Keepers, a far-right, militant group that supports Trump and is preparing for the possibility of civil war. Many current and former members of the group have experience in the military or police. The group was founded in 2009 by Stewart Rhodes. Are there other parallels you see between your reporting on ISIS and civil wars in Iraq, Syria and Ukraine?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One thing that I learned overseas covering civil wars is that the first step down that path is convincing yourself that the other side is bent on your destruction, is convincing yourself that they do "}
{"id": "928644025", "date": "2020-10-28", "guest": "Mike Giglio", "title": "After Covering Civil War Overseas, Journalist Examines U.S. Militia Movement", "question_index": 27, "text": "When you were covering Ukraine, you were kidnapped by pro-Soviet rebels. What do you think you learned about militants from that experience? And you were kidnapped because you were a journalist. And there were other journalists who were being held, too. Fortunately, you were released. But did you feel like you learned anything about the mindset of militants and especially militants who think that journalists are evil?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I keep thinking back to when I was in eastern Ukraine before a war broke out there. And I was really, like, embedded with these protesters who were on the side of Russia. You know, they spea"}
{"id": "928644025", "date": "2020-10-28", "guest": "Mike Giglio", "title": "After Covering Civil War Overseas, Journalist Examines U.S. Militia Movement", "question_index": 28, "text": "Do you think about that a lot when you hear people talk about preparing for civil war in the U.S.?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I was kidnapped at a checkpoint. And I was put in a bus - I think it was a school bus - and blindfolded. And there were a number of these rebels around on the bus. And they were driving me and some"}
{"id": "928644025", "date": "2020-10-28", "guest": "Mike Giglio", "title": "After Covering Civil War Overseas, Journalist Examines U.S. Militia Movement", "question_index": 29, "text": "So let's talk about where we are now. Just recently, there was a plan to kidnap Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer. The Center for Strategic and International Studies issued a report just a few days ago that white supremacists and other like-minded groups have committed a majority of the terrorist attacks in the U.S. this year. Earlier this month, the Department of Homeland Security warned that violent white supremacy was the most persistent and lethal threat in the homeland. So when you look ahead to Election Day and the days soon after, what do you see?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wish I could take them with me to Iraq or to a place that's actually in a real war and hold their eyes, you know, open and have them just really see what it is that they're talking about. I just - I"}
{"id": "928644025", "date": "2020-10-28", "guest": "Mike Giglio", "title": "After Covering Civil War Overseas, Journalist Examines U.S. Militia Movement", "question_index": 30, "text": "Which could be very dangerous.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, if you had asked me in January when I started working on the story what are, like, my worst-case scenarios for the election, I would've said confusion, people from different sides coming out"}
{"id": "928644025", "date": "2020-10-28", "guest": "Mike Giglio", "title": "After Covering Civil War Overseas, Journalist Examines U.S. Militia Movement", "question_index": 31, "text": "Mike Giglio, thank you so much for your reporting and for joining us on the show today.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is dangerous. And, you know, when we talk about people preparing for a civil war, like, I don't want to get just stuck imagining some kind of distant conflict, you know, worst-case scenario. Like, "}
{"id": "928644025", "date": "2020-10-28", "guest": "Mike Giglio", "title": "After Covering Civil War Overseas, Journalist Examines U.S. Militia Movement", "question_index": 32, "text": "Mike Giglio's article about the Oath Keepers is in the current issue of The Atlantic and on The Atlantic website. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll talk about the profound and enduring impact of the coronavirus on the way we live. It's the subject of the new book \"Apollo's Arrow\" by Dr. Nicholas Christakis, who will be our guest. He's a professor at Yale, where he directs the Human Nature Lab. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having me."}
{"id": "928644025", "date": "2020-10-28", "guest": "Mike Giglio", "title": "After Covering Civil War Overseas, Journalist Examines U.S. Militia Movement", "question_index": 33, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Ann Marie Baldonado, Therese Madden, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Kayla Lattimore. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having me."}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 0, "text": "Billy Joe Shaver, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) On a rainy, windy morning, that's the day that I was born in that old sharecropper's, one-room country shack. They say my mammy left me same day that she had me, said she hit the road and ne"}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 1, "text": "You're better known as a songwriter than a singer. Do you enjoy performing? And do you enjoy doing your own songs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it's good to be here. Thank you."}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 2, "text": "Now, from what I understand from your songs, you didn't start performing until after years of working jobs, of doing manual labor.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I do. I can't imagine how it would be to do other peoples' songs because I - it's such a wonderful thing to be able to do your own tunes. You get to catch that little capsule of time that you inv"}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 3, "text": "So you sawed off your fingers at an accident in a sawmill?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I - but that's what happened to me. And then I decided I would start writing songs and playing the guitar after that."}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 4, "text": "How did you end up...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 5, "text": "...Playing guitar after that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was about..."}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 6, "text": "So it's your right hand that you sawed off your fingers on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "figure it out. And - but the reason I started playing guitar, I guess it was the hardest thing for me to do. Two - and my arm was in bad shape. They had to put electrodes on it to make it start moving"}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 7, "text": "So what do you do? Like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 8, "text": "Do you use a pick?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "with my right."}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 9, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I don't. I just use my fingers - my thumb and my little finger."}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 10, "text": "So once you decided that you weren't doing what you were supposed to be doing - what you should be doing is playing music and writing songs - what did you do to start off on that new life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm not a great guitar player. But I play good enough that I can write songs and play in front of people, so it's no big deal."}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 11, "text": "Which song did Elvis do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just started doing it. I just started writing songs. And I got me some good songs together. And I went up to Nashville. And then about in '71 or so, Bobby put out a song that I wrote, \"Ride Me Down "}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 12, "text": "Can you sing a couple of bars from it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Elvis did one called \"Just Because You Asked Me To.\" It was a song that Waylon and I wrote together."}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 13, "text": "I want to play something else from your new album \"Tramp On Your Street.\" I want to play the song \"If I Give My Soul,\" which I think might be my favorite on the record. And this is a song wondering if you gave your soul to Jesus, would your life change and would your family love you more. Let me play the song. And then I'll ask you about writing it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Long ago and far away, in my old common labor shoes, I turned the world all which-a-ways just because you asked me to. Anyway - but the chorus is, (singing) let the world call me a fool, but"}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 14, "text": "It's Billy Joe Shaver from his new album \"Tramp On Your Street.\" And he wrote that song, it's called \"If I Give My Soul.\" The son that you're singing about who you left, in that song - is that your son, Eddy, who plays guitar with you now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I had a woman once - she was kind, and she was gentle, had a child by me, who grew up to be a man. I had a steady job until I started into drinking, and I started making music that went with"}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 15, "text": "What kinds of things?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that's my only child. Yeah. And he lost a lot of respect for me because of the things that I was doing in this business, and - I won't say this business, I mean, it's just the things that I got c"}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 16, "text": "So you did give your soul.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, alcohol, drugs, running around just - I was the - I was, I guess, the king of sinners, far as I was concerned, but I got myself straightened out. And it was with the Lord Jesus Christ "}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 17, "text": "What was the turning point for you of deciding to change?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I did."}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 18, "text": "Well, you sing \"Old Chunk Of Coal\" on your new CD, so why don't we hear a little bit of that? And this is Billy Joe Shaver.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, what really happened was - it happened when I wrote the song \"Old Chunk Of Coal.\" I actually had a vision of Jesus sitting on the end of my bed shaking his head. And I went out to a place out at t"}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 19, "text": "So you wrote \"Old Chunk Of Coal\" after...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I'm just an old chunk of coal, but I'm going to be a diamond someday. And I'm gonna grow and glow till I'm so blue perfect, going to put a smile on everybody's face. I'm going to kneel and p"}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was back - many years back."}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 21, "text": "Did you get back to your family after...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But it took a long time to get back the respect of the people that I love."}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 22, "text": "And then what? Then he'll fly away?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no, really. We were divorced the last time in 1986, and I'm not back with her now. But, you know, everything happens for the best, I think. But my son's with me and playing with me, and he'll st"}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 23, "text": "So you think that he's playing with you to help you out through this period?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He'll fly away and do his own thing."}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 24, "text": "Did he know your songs when - even in that period when he was angry with you, and you weren't close, do you think your music still had an impact on him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I am. I'm sure of that."}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 25, "text": "The song says your mother left when you were born.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was born in Corsicana, Texas, and it's about 53 miles northeast of Waco, Texas. And I lived there until I was 12 years old. My grandmother raised me, and she passed on when I was 12. And I went to W"}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 26, "text": "Yeah. Is it true?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I know on the one, on \"Georgia On A Fast Train\" or - no, \"Georgia On A Fast Train,\" it says, my mammy left me the same day that she had me."}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 27, "text": "What did she do at the honky-tonk?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, not really. Her and my father - I didn't meet my father until I was nearly grown, but my father beat her up pretty bad and kicked her around and everything, even when I was inside of her, and so"}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 28, "text": "Did you ever get close to your mother in later life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was a honky-tonk girl. She - just a waitress-type person. Her and this old gal named Blanche (ph), they run that place I refer to as the Green Gables in \"Honky Tonk Heroes.\" Of course, I don't hav"}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 29, "text": "So tell me something about your early musical life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I did. And as a matter of fact, my mother's name is Victory. That's her real name. And I'm - and I - she and I are just as close as you can get. I love her very much. And she's - she did a lot of"}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 30, "text": "What kind of songs would you sing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, when I was just a kid, from the time I remember I started talking, I was singing. And we didn't have a radio. My grandmother - I lived with her and - but every once in a while, I'd hear one, you k"}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 31, "text": "Now, how much sense do these songs make to a 6-year-old?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd sing like some Roy Acuff-type things and \"Pins And Needles (In My Heart)\" and stuff like that."}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 32, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd sing like some Roy Acuff-type things and \"Pins And Needles (In My Heart)\" and stuff like that."}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 33, "text": "When you were that young?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not very much, but I started writing my own songs."}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 34, "text": "Like what?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I did. I would write about what was going down with me."}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 35, "text": "You know what? I wanted to ask you. This gets back to your accident when you sawed off your fingers. Well, do you remember what your very first thought was when you realized you'd sawed your fingers off?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I can't remember exactly everything. Most of them was kind of funny."}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 36, "text": "Did you take your fingers with you to the hospital?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I said, oh, my God. How am I going to do what I'm really supposed to do now? And I just kicked myself in the ass, you know, for being so clumsy and cutting my - you know, and causing my fingers "}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 37, "text": "Did people tell you that it wouldn't be possible for you to play guitar and that it was foolish to even try?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...That wasn't going to work."}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 38, "text": "Did you have to try to talk the doctors out of cutting your arm off?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Nobody messed with me on that. I was lucky that I didn't - they were talking about even cutting my arm off. I was lucky that I got to keep my arm."}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 39, "text": "How did you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I did."}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 40, "text": "Well, there's a song I want to end with, and it's called \"Live Forever.\" Would you tell us something about the song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I told them that that wasn't going to happen."}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 41, "text": "It's a great song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. My son Eddy gave me this melody, and I carried it around with me for about six months, I guess. And I would listen to it and try to figure out what was going to come in to fill that melody. That "}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 42, "text": "And I want to thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 43, "text": "I'd like you to tell us the story behind the song. I assume you wrote this for your wife who died in 1999 of cancer. Was she alive when you wrote it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Heart's a' bustin' (ph), grew down by the river that flows by the old paper mill. In the springtime, we stood there together at the top of the Old Stone Fort hill. Many's a' time I been lone"}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 44, "text": "Oh, I didn't know that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, that's a real old song."}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 45, "text": "Your wife, to whom - for whom that song was written, died in 1999. I know you'd separated several times over the years.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And the strange thing about it is that I wrote it, and I hid it from her because she'd had to be dead, you know? And somehow or another, I knew she was going to die before I did. And I wrote this song"}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 46, "text": "You were married three times.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 47, "text": "The last time you were married, she had cancer. She had colon cancer. Did you know that this time it was forever, that that was - that you'd stay together until the end?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Married three times, yeah."}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 48, "text": "Your son.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I knew - I was doing a movie. Oh, I was doing \"The Apostle.\" I met Robert Duvall. And then about 10 years later, he calls - they called up. He didn't call me, but they called me up for a screen "}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 49, "text": "Yeah. You've said that your son and your wife were so close in age. She was 17...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he just never got over it."}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 50, "text": "...When your son was born.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 51, "text": "And you said they were more like friends than parent and son.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She'd just turned 17. Yeah, she was..."}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 52, "text": "Your wife died in 1999 and your son at the end of the following year. What was the next year like for you, having lost both of them and your mother as well?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were. They were so cool, man. They went everywhere. They just had so much fun. And his - all his wives were jealous of her, you know, I mean, 'cause they just had so much fun together. They'd jus"}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 53, "text": "When you say this was New Year's Eve, was it actually the night that your son died or a year after that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And one of them was older. And the one that's with me now, she finally passed away. But if I hadn't had them dogs, I don't know what I'd have done 'cause they kept me going 'cause I had to feed them"}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 54, "text": "And so that night you performed with Willie Nelson, he convinced you to perform.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he died - he died that night, New Year's Eve. He died on New Year's Eve."}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 55, "text": "And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He said get back on the horse. And I'm a cowboy, so I did."}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 56, "text": "You actually had a heart attack onstage in August of 2001.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're listening to Terry's 2005 interview with Billy Joe Shaver. He died Wednesday at the age of 81."}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 57, "text": "And then you had a quadruple bypass. I was thinking about what it must be like to have a heart attack onstage in front of an audience, how bizarre and kind of creepy. Do you have memories of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 58, "text": "So you ended up having bypass and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And I said, what? He said, yeah, you got to go with me. And so he talked me into going to Australia for three weeks of teetotal hell. I just wanted to kill him. And finally I got back, and the docto"}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 59, "text": "Are you glad that you survived? It sounded like you almost wanted to die.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I did, after I come back from an Australian trip."}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 60, "text": "Do you feel like your songwriting has changed in the past few years after all the losses you've experienced and the health crisis of your own? Is - has that had an impact on your songwriting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. I kept wanting to die. I kept wanting to die, you know, 'cause it just didn't look like there's much for me. But then I realized there's lots and lots of people cared about me. And cared about "}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 61, "text": "I guess that's in your memoir that you wrote that Johnny Cash, who has been - who was a longtime friend of yours, said that when he was in rehab, he used to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I haven't noticed it if it has. I just still - I just, oh, I just hurt so hard to do quality work. And that's what I've stayed with. And I believe that's why the cream finally comes to the t"}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 62, "text": "Every morning he'd sing to himself your song, \"Old Chunk Of Coal,\" which is a song about somebody who feels like an old chunk of coal but hopes to become a diamond one day. And I thought, there is no higher compliment a songwriter...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 63, "text": "...Can have than that a song meant so much that, like, Johnny Cash would have sung it to himself...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 64, "text": "...To give himself strength every morning.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 65, "text": "You say in your memoir that you read the Bible every day.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I - yeah. You know, I had to hang up. I hung up when I started crying. You know, I'll still cry from time to time. Don't - not in front of anybody, but I started crying. It just was the greatest c"}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 66, "text": "So do you think your songs have been influenced by reading the Bible?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I do. I try to. Down here lately, I haven't. Actually, I missed it a day or two."}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 67, "text": "How?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Sure. Yeah."}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 68, "text": "That's very charitable.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Jesus Christ is a - he's the one who made us all No. 2. And I always say, if you don't love Jesus, go to hell. But may the God of your choice bless you also."}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 69, "text": "Billy Joe Shaver, would you like to play a song for us to close?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I'm a giving man."}
{"id": "929487192", "date": "2020-10-30", "guest": "Billy Joe Shaver", "title": "Remembering Billy Joe Shaver, Songwriter Of Country's Outlaw Movement", "question_index": 70, "text": "Billy Joe Shaver, thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I would. I'd like to do \"Try And Try Again\" - saved my life. (Singing) I went up on the mountain, and I looked down on my life. I had squandered all my money, lost my son and wife. And my heart w"}
{"id": "930362521", "date": "2020-11-03", "guest": "Jerald Walker", "title": "'How To Make A Slave' Author On The Advice That Changed His Writing Career", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Jerald Walker, is the author of a new collection of personal essays called \"How To Make A Slave And Other Essays.\" The title comes from Frederick Douglass' famous line, you have seen how a man was made a slave; you shall see how a slave was made a man. The book includes essays about growing up on Chicago's South Side, learning how to prevent his personal essays from turning into cliches about ghetto life, raising his two sons in a predominantly white suburb a block away from the college where he and his wife were teaching and wondering what impact that would have on their lives. He's the author of two previous books, \"Street Shadows: A Memoir Of Race, Rebellion, And Redemption\" and \"The World In Flames: A Black Boyhood In A White Supremacist Doomsday Cult.\" That book is about growing up in a family that belonged to the Worldwide Church of God that preached the races should be segregated and the apocalypse was imminent. Walker is a professor of creative writing at Emerson College. We recorded our interview Thursday, October 29, before the election. Jerald Walker, welcome to Fresh Air.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "930362521", "date": "2020-11-03", "guest": "Jerald Walker", "title": "'How To Make A Slave' Author On The Advice That Changed His Writing Career", "question_index": 1, "text": "Let's start with a turning point in your life. You were in the Iowa Writers' Workshop and submitted a story that you thought was quite good. It was about growing up on Chicago's South Side. Describe the story or personal essay that you had turned in.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me, Terry."}
{"id": "930362521", "date": "2020-11-03", "guest": "Jerald Walker", "title": "'How To Make A Slave' Author On The Advice That Changed His Writing Career", "question_index": 2, "text": "And you were really angry, and you confronted him about it. What did he tell you about staying away from cliches about being Black in America and about growing up in the ghetto? 'Cause you had told him, like, everything I wrote in this is true and, like - describe what you told him when you got really angry with him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Pretty much everything I wrote back then was about how white society had pretty much ruined the lives of Black people, and we were miserable, angry, bitter and poised for absolute failure as a result."}
{"id": "930362521", "date": "2020-11-03", "guest": "Jerald Walker", "title": "'How To Make A Slave' Author On The Advice That Changed His Writing Career", "question_index": 3, "text": "I'll interject here that he was the first African American writer to win a Pulitzer Prize for writing. So, I mean, you not only admired him; he had real stature in the world of writers. But you thought about it and then talked to him again. And he gave you some advice, which is very interesting advice, and I'd like you to describe what he told you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I didn't sleep after workshop because I was so upset. And I called him the next morning and demanded a conference, and he agreed to meet with me. And when we met in his office, I went through th"}
{"id": "930362521", "date": "2020-11-03", "guest": "Jerald Walker", "title": "'How To Make A Slave' Author On The Advice That Changed His Writing Career", "question_index": 4, "text": "So he wanted you to write about the strengths of Black people and the things they've overcome, even if they're not having a successful career as a writer or getting into the Iowa Writers' Workshop.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think one of the things that cause us to sort of not see each other in the proper light is that what he thought that I was doing was trafficking in stereotypes. And I was. I don't deny that. B"}
{"id": "930362521", "date": "2020-11-03", "guest": "Jerald Walker", "title": "'How To Make A Slave' Author On The Advice That Changed His Writing Career", "question_index": 5, "text": "And just to be clear, he wasn't saying, you know, like, Black people can just pull themselves up by their bootstraps and nothing else is standing in their way; you could achieve whatever you want to. He wasn't taking that approach.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. It's not the victory; it's the fight. And I think that he made it clear to me that I was failing to talk about the fight. And he made the point that for people who could endure the brutalizat"}
{"id": "930362521", "date": "2020-11-03", "guest": "Jerald Walker", "title": "'How To Make A Slave' Author On The Advice That Changed His Writing Career", "question_index": 6, "text": "Your wife is biracial, and you raised your two sons in a suburb that was 96% white. Your home was a block away from the campus, which is very convenient. It was the campus where you both taught at the time. So describe the gap between how you grew up on Chicago's South Side and how you raised your sons when you were living in this neighborhood that was 96% white, what they were exposed to.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely not. What he was simply saying is that we don't come from a tradition of defeat; we come from a tradition of resistance and fight and struggle and that these are the qualities that make it "}
{"id": "930362521", "date": "2020-11-03", "guest": "Jerald Walker", "title": "'How To Make A Slave' Author On The Advice That Changed His Writing Career", "question_index": 7, "text": "How old are they now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep, it's as if our lives have flipped in some way. When I was being raised, the neighborhood we lived in was white. When my parents first moved there, we were - I was born in a housing project, and t"}
{"id": "930362521", "date": "2020-11-03", "guest": "Jerald Walker", "title": "'How To Make A Slave' Author On The Advice That Changed His Writing Career", "question_index": 8, "text": "In your book, you wonder, how is it going to affect them to grow up in predominantly white communities? Do you have any regrets about that? Do you think that - like, what do you think are some of the advantages and disadvantages of them having grown up that way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right now, they are 18 and 20."}
{"id": "930362521", "date": "2020-11-03", "guest": "Jerald Walker", "title": "'How To Make A Slave' Author On The Advice That Changed His Writing Career", "question_index": 9, "text": "To show them that they were, you know, protected from the things that you had to endure when you were growing up, you told them stories about growing up on Chicago's South Side and told them about - well, did you tell them about how your brother was shot in the back in a McDonald's, about how another brother was in and out of prison, how your sister-in-law was addicted to heroin and died of an overdose? Did you tell them stories about, you know, your family and friends?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one of the disadvantages is that there's a - certain cultural aspects of Black life that they just don't know much about. The various musical forms and certain types of community gatherings and "}
{"id": "930362521", "date": "2020-11-03", "guest": "Jerald Walker", "title": "'How To Make A Slave' Author On The Advice That Changed His Writing Career", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, it sounds like between the stories you have told them about growing up and the news reports about the murders in Chicago, that they were really terrified about going to the South Side and visiting your mother on her birthday.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I told them all those stories, and it horrified them. And they wanted no part of that lifestyle and that community. You can't blame them. But I did tell them that. And so I worried later when my mothe"}
{"id": "930362521", "date": "2020-11-03", "guest": "Jerald Walker", "title": "'How To Make A Slave' Author On The Advice That Changed His Writing Career", "question_index": 11, "text": "What would you have done differently, in retrospect, in terms of telling them about your life growing up and what you were - what you and your family were exposed to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were terrified. And to be honest, I was a little bit terrified, too. You get a distance from these communities, and you begin to generalize the experience. And all I could really think about were"}
{"id": "930362521", "date": "2020-11-03", "guest": "Jerald Walker", "title": "'How To Make A Slave' Author On The Advice That Changed His Writing Career", "question_index": 12, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jerald Walker. And his new collection of personal essays is called \"How To Make A Slave.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I probably would've done exactly what James McPherson told me to do, and that's to give a more broad, a more comprehensive account of Black life and not to simply talk about the bad parts. And maybe, "}
{"id": "930362521", "date": "2020-11-03", "guest": "Jerald Walker", "title": "'How To Make A Slave' Author On The Advice That Changed His Writing Career", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Jerald Walker, author of a new collection of personal essays called \"How To Make A Slave.\" You've written about what it was like to grow up on Chicago's South Side and move to your part of the neighborhood. When it was predominantly white, you were, like, the second Black family on the block. And then you watched the neighborhood change. White people left when Black families started moving in. Describe, like, the changes that you witnessed growing up there as the white people left and more Black families moved in. What were the other changes that you saw?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I probably would've done exactly what James McPherson told me to do, and that's to give a more broad, a more comprehensive account of Black life and not to simply talk about the bad parts. And maybe, "}
{"id": "930362521", "date": "2020-11-03", "guest": "Jerald Walker", "title": "'How To Make A Slave' Author On The Advice That Changed His Writing Career", "question_index": 14, "text": "How did you change as the neighborhood changed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the white people left. And if that had been the extent of it, I think things might have been OK. But many of those white people actually owned the businesses in the neighborhood, and so those we"}
{"id": "930362521", "date": "2020-11-03", "guest": "Jerald Walker", "title": "'How To Make A Slave' Author On The Advice That Changed His Writing Career", "question_index": 15, "text": "And during the period when you were into, like, petty crime and, you know, selling drugs and doing drugs, you write that in your teens, you wore your hair in a permanent, a la James Brown, weighted your pinky fingers with bulky costume jewelry, carried a straight razor in your sock, cupped your crotch at every opportunity and snarled a great deal. And you write, I was very frightening and very unoriginal.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I adapted to it. I went from being, you know, a nerdy, kind of a studious person to, at the urging of one of my older brothers, needing to master the criminal enterprises that were sprouting up. And h"}
{"id": "930362521", "date": "2020-11-03", "guest": "Jerald Walker", "title": "'How To Make A Slave' Author On The Advice That Changed His Writing Career", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jerald Walker. And his new collection of personal essays is called \"How To Make A Slave.\" We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. That's exactly - I mean, that was the uniform of the neighborhood of kids my age. You needed to look as if you were about to commit some horrendous crimes against someone if they gave you the"}
{"id": "930362521", "date": "2020-11-03", "guest": "Jerald Walker", "title": "'How To Make A Slave' Author On The Advice That Changed His Writing Career", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Jerald Walker, the author of a new collection of personal essays called \"How To Make A Slave.\" He's the author of two previous memoirs, \"Street Shadows: A Memoir Of Race, Rebellion, And Redemption,\" about growing up on Chicago's South Side, and \"The World In Flames: A Black Boyhood In A White Supremacist Doomsday Cult,\" about being raised in a family that belonged to the Worldwide Church of God. Walker is a professor of creative writing at Emerson College. There's a story I'd like you to tell, and this is a really, you know, horrifying story. You were 21. It was 1985. You were on the way to buy coke from a friend who was a dealer when you were robbed at gunpoint. Describe what happened.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. That's exactly - I mean, that was the uniform of the neighborhood of kids my age. You needed to look as if you were about to commit some horrendous crimes against someone if they gave you the"}
{"id": "930362521", "date": "2020-11-03", "guest": "Jerald Walker", "title": "'How To Make A Slave' Author On The Advice That Changed His Writing Career", "question_index": 18, "text": "But it sounds like you had previous encounters that would have been kind of frightening. I mean, you had been robbed at gunpoint or knifepoint before. You had friends who were in jail, friends who were killed, family who had been in jail, family that was shot. So what was different about this episode?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This was - I dropped out of high school when I was 16 years old for a number of reasons, but one of the main reasons was that the high school I went to was so crime-riddled, and just getting there and"}
{"id": "930362521", "date": "2020-11-03", "guest": "Jerald Walker", "title": "'How To Make A Slave' Author On The Advice That Changed His Writing Career", "question_index": 19, "text": "Had you thought about the possibility that the guy who held the gun to your head would follow you up the stairs and try to get drugs that he could either use or sell?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the thing that made this one different was the feel of the barrel of the gun pressing against my temple. And there are close calls, but you can't get much closer than that. And I knew that it "}
{"id": "930362521", "date": "2020-11-03", "guest": "Jerald Walker", "title": "'How To Make A Slave' Author On The Advice That Changed His Writing Career", "question_index": 20, "text": "So what was your first step away from the life you'd been living?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thought that there was a possibility he would be waiting for me when I came down. But - I was prepared for it. I was simply going to give him the drugs and go about my way. But I was - I mean, by th"}
{"id": "930362521", "date": "2020-11-03", "guest": "Jerald Walker", "title": "'How To Make A Slave' Author On The Advice That Changed His Writing Career", "question_index": 21, "text": "McPherson ended up paying for your tuition to go where?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had a job at that point. I was working at a medical center near me. And I would take the train in Chicago to and from my job. And the stop before my exit was the stop for the University of Illinois "}
{"id": "930362521", "date": "2020-11-03", "guest": "Jerald Walker", "title": "'How To Make A Slave' Author On The Advice That Changed His Writing Career", "question_index": 22, "text": "Oh, it wasn't McPherson. That was somebody else.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it wasn't McPherson."}
{"id": "930362521", "date": "2020-11-03", "guest": "Jerald Walker", "title": "'How To Make A Slave' Author On The Advice That Changed His Writing Career", "question_index": 23, "text": "It's an amazing story that he would do that for you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, that was when I went to my junior college. I took a creative writing course on a whim because I had failed three other courses in different subjects. I couldn't figure out what I wanted to do, so "}
{"id": "930362521", "date": "2020-11-03", "guest": "Jerald Walker", "title": "'How To Make A Slave' Author On The Advice That Changed His Writing Career", "question_index": 24, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jerald Walker. His new collection of personal essays is called \"How To Make A Slave.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is an amazing story. And what's also amazing about it is that he did it for a lot of people. I mean, I would like to think that he singled me out out of his thousands of students over the years. Bu"}
{"id": "930362521", "date": "2020-11-03", "guest": "Jerald Walker", "title": "'How To Make A Slave' Author On The Advice That Changed His Writing Career", "question_index": 25, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jerald Walker, the author of a new collection of personal essays called \"How To Make A Slave.\" Both of your parents were blind. Were they both blind from birth?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is an amazing story. And what's also amazing about it is that he did it for a lot of people. I mean, I would like to think that he singled me out out of his thousands of students over the years. Bu"}
{"id": "930362521", "date": "2020-11-03", "guest": "Jerald Walker", "title": "'How To Make A Slave' Author On The Advice That Changed His Writing Career", "question_index": 26, "text": "What about your mother? Was she born blind?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. My father lost his sight when he was 12 years old. He fell down a flight of stairs, hit the back of his head and started having migraines. And then his vision started leaving slowly. But he was so"}
{"id": "930362521", "date": "2020-11-03", "guest": "Jerald Walker", "title": "'How To Make A Slave' Author On The Advice That Changed His Writing Career", "question_index": 27, "text": "That sounds horrible. One of your earlier memoirs is titled \"The World In Flames: A Black Boyhood In A White Supremacist Doomsday Cult.\" And you grew up in what you describe as a cult. It was the Worldwide Church of God. What did that church - tell us a little bit about that church.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mother was not born blind. She was born with what we believe to be glaucoma. But in rural Arkansas in 1936, there was no way of having it diagnosis because they didn't have access to medical care. "}
{"id": "930362521", "date": "2020-11-03", "guest": "Jerald Walker", "title": "'How To Make A Slave' Author On The Advice That Changed His Writing Career", "question_index": 28, "text": "But it was also preaching segregation and justifying slavery. What language did they use to do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right. I'll begin by saying it was awful. One of the things - well, this is the basic - the teachings of the church. They believed that in 1972, the world would come to an end of sorts, which is t"}
{"id": "930362521", "date": "2020-11-03", "guest": "Jerald Walker", "title": "'How To Make A Slave' Author On The Advice That Changed His Writing Career", "question_index": 29, "text": "How seriously did you take this when you were growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "there's any number of verses from the Bible that you can use to justify segregation and slavery. And many of them can be found in Leviticus. I can't cite chapter and verse now, but they're there becau"}
{"id": "930362521", "date": "2020-11-03", "guest": "Jerald Walker", "title": "'How To Make A Slave' Author On The Advice That Changed His Writing Career", "question_index": 30, "text": "There was a big financial scandal, I believe, involving the church because the church leaders got very rich. And was your family expected to contribute a lot to the church? Did they lose a lot of money in the process?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I bought into it 100%. I didn't - I mean, when you're, you know, raised in a religion and this is what you're taught from birth - and I was - it all made sense to me. And it was a horrifying thing. An"}
{"id": "930362521", "date": "2020-11-03", "guest": "Jerald Walker", "title": "'How To Make A Slave' Author On The Advice That Changed His Writing Career", "question_index": 31, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jerald Walker. And his new collection of personal essays is called \"How To Make A Slave.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My parents gave 10% of their income to the church for the entire time we were members of it. And my - we were poor. I mean, we weren't low income. We were several levels below low income. But every ye"}
{"id": "930362521", "date": "2020-11-03", "guest": "Jerald Walker", "title": "'How To Make A Slave' Author On The Advice That Changed His Writing Career", "question_index": 32, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Jerald Walker, author of a new collection of personal essays called \"How To Make A Slave.\" In this time of growing awareness of the number of police shootings of black men and women and protests that have happened around the country, are you thinking back to your childhood? And did you have or did your family and friends have encounters with the police that you're being reminded of?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My parents gave 10% of their income to the church for the entire time we were members of it. And my - we were poor. I mean, we weren't low income. We were several levels below low income. But every ye"}
{"id": "930362521", "date": "2020-11-03", "guest": "Jerald Walker", "title": "'How To Make A Slave' Author On The Advice That Changed His Writing Career", "question_index": 33, "text": "What have you been doing in response to the police shootings and the protests?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure. There was one incident in particular when a friend of mine, we were - I don't know what we were doing - something that caught the police's attention. And they put us in the back of their squ"}
{"id": "930362521", "date": "2020-11-03", "guest": "Jerald Walker", "title": "'How To Make A Slave' Author On The Advice That Changed His Writing Career", "question_index": 34, "text": "Your wife is biracial. And when you started having a relationship with her, you were hoping - among other things, of course - that you would learn about race and perceptions of race by the perceptions that she had, you know, growing up biracial and growing up in a predominantly white suburb. Did it work out that way? Do you feel like having a wife who is biracial has led you to understand things about race that you wouldn't have otherwise perceived?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Um, well, I get as angry about these things as anybody else. But it also reaches a point where it's so overwhelming - you see these stories on the news, and it just - it eats at you. And it makes you "}
{"id": "930362521", "date": "2020-11-03", "guest": "Jerald Walker", "title": "'How To Make A Slave' Author On The Advice That Changed His Writing Career", "question_index": 35, "text": "Jerald Walker, I want to thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely - but in a way, completely opposite than what I anticipated. I anticipated that, being biracial, that my wife would be extra sensitive to racial matters, that she would be on the lookout fo"}
{"id": "930362521", "date": "2020-11-03", "guest": "Jerald Walker", "title": "'How To Make A Slave' Author On The Advice That Changed His Writing Career", "question_index": 36, "text": "Jerald Walker's new collection of personal essays is called \"How To Make A Slave.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, after the polls have closed, we'll talk about how our electoral system has held up with Barton Gellman. His Atlantic article, \"The Election That Could Break America,\" is about how the pandemic, a deluge of mail-in ballots, slowed down postal delivery, voter suppression, lawsuits and the president himself could make for an uncertain outcome. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for the invitation. This was great. This was fun."}
{"id": "930362521", "date": "2020-11-03", "guest": "Jerald Walker", "title": "'How To Make A Slave' Author On The Advice That Changed His Writing Career", "question_index": 37, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Kayla Lattimore. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for the invitation. This was great. This was fun."}
{"id": "931322781", "date": "2020-11-04", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "'Atlantic' Writer Says Current Election Is A 'Stress Test' Of American Democracy", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. This election has not only been a political contest, it's been a stress test of our election system and how it holds up in a divisive time, a time of disinformation and a time when the president was unwilling to say that he'd accept the vote if he lost and peacefully hand over power. The election that could break America is how my guest, Barton Gellman, described it in an article published in the November issue of The Atlantic. He updated that story earlier this week in an article titled \"How Trump Could Attempt A Coup\" about the legal strategies of the Trump and Biden teams to win in the courts if the election is contested. Gellman writes, (reading) our electoral system was not built to withstand a sustained assault on its legitimacy. Gellman is a staff writer at The Atlantic. He wrote extensively about the expansion of executive power during the George W. Bush administration and is the author of a book about the Cheney vice presidency called \"Angler.\" He's also the author of \"Dark Mirror: Edward Snowden And The American Surveillance State.\" Bart Gellman, welcome back to FRESH AIR. So you've been predicting all the ways that Trump could contest the election or sabotage the vote. Last night, Trump claimed victory, and he said he'd petition the Supreme Court to demand a halt to the counting. He said he wanted all voting to stop. What is the impact of that on the integrity of the voting process?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "931322781", "date": "2020-11-04", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "'Atlantic' Writer Says Current Election Is A 'Stress Test' Of American Democracy", "question_index": 1, "text": "The Supreme Court did stop the Florida recount in 2000, in the Bush-Gore contest, but the Supreme Court said that was not to be used as a precedent. What would it take for Trump to actually take the contest to the Supreme Court?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's just a reckless challenge to the whole legitimacy of this election. This is, frankly, a wannabe-dictator move. He is saying that the counting must stop when it has not nearly finished. He i"}
{"id": "931322781", "date": "2020-11-04", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "'Atlantic' Writer Says Current Election Is A 'Stress Test' Of American Democracy", "question_index": 2, "text": "You wrote that the worst-case scenario is not that Trump rejects the election outcome. The worst case is that he uses his power to prevent a decisive outcome against him. What do you mean by that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's the million-dollar question. Good lawyers can find ambiguities in what seem to be unambiguous rules. That's their job. This litigation could go any number of directions. We already have s"}
{"id": "931322781", "date": "2020-11-04", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "'Atlantic' Writer Says Current Election Is A 'Stress Test' Of American Democracy", "question_index": 3, "text": "How would that work? The Electoral College is so complicated and confusing for most of us. Describe the scenario that would enable legislatures to basically annul the electors that voters voted for and the Republican legislatures in Republican-led legislatures choose their own electors.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What I mean is that there's not one, single referee - even the Supreme Court - in our system. There's no official who can blow the whistle and say, the game is over. Here's the score. You guys win. Yo"}
{"id": "931322781", "date": "2020-11-04", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "'Atlantic' Writer Says Current Election Is A 'Stress Test' Of American Democracy", "question_index": 4, "text": "How likely a scenario do you think that is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we're accustomed to and we take for granted that we vote for the president, and then state by state, the votes are tallied up. And then we know there is such a thing as an Electoral College and "}
{"id": "931322781", "date": "2020-11-04", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "'Atlantic' Writer Says Current Election Is A 'Stress Test' Of American Democracy", "question_index": 5, "text": "If the Pennsylvania state legislature decided to pick their own electors - there's a Democratic governor in Pennsylvania and also in Wisconsin and Michigan. What could a Democratic governor do to try to overrule a Republican legislature from picking its own electors?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I honestly don't know how likely it is. I know that the Trump campaign had done some contingency planning in which they considered this possibility. I know that there was some conversation between the"}
{"id": "931322781", "date": "2020-11-04", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "'Atlantic' Writer Says Current Election Is A 'Stress Test' Of American Democracy", "question_index": 6, "text": "It's really remarkable. With the Electoral College, there's this huge kind of constitutional, confusing bureaucracy in a way standing between individual voters and the way their vote is actually registered.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we've seen this movie before, only once in this country, and that was in 1876. What could happen - what did happen then is that the governor of a different party from the legislature sent his ow"}
{"id": "931322781", "date": "2020-11-04", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "'Atlantic' Writer Says Current Election Is A 'Stress Test' Of American Democracy", "question_index": 7, "text": "Do you think that the - when the Electoral College was created, it demonstrated a lack of faith in the ability of voters to actually choose the president?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. They're a proxy for the popular vote in today's terms, but that's not the way they were created. They were created to be the actual deciders. The state legislatures would decide whom to appoint"}
{"id": "931322781", "date": "2020-11-04", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "'Atlantic' Writer Says Current Election Is A 'Stress Test' Of American Democracy", "question_index": 8, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Barton Gellman. He's a staff writer for The Atlantic, and his latest articles are \"The Election That Could Break America\" and \"How Trump Could Attempt A Coup.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, as we know, the founders had a very narrow conception of who were allowed to be voting citizens. They were allowed to vote for their own legislatures, their own state and their own state governo"}
{"id": "931322781", "date": "2020-11-04", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "'Atlantic' Writer Says Current Election Is A 'Stress Test' Of American Democracy", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded early this morning with Barton Gellman, who is a staff writer at The Atlantic, and his two latest articles are titled \"The Election That Could Break America\" and \"How Trump Could Attempt A Coup.\" So we've talked a little bit about, like, Trump's strategies to contest the election. The Biden team has been gaming out legal strategies to contest any Trump legal strategies contesting the election. So what are some of the things that the Biden team has been preparing for? You write that they've prepared pre-drafted emergency motions in state and federal courts. What are some examples of those pre-drafted emergency motions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, as we know, the founders had a very narrow conception of who were allowed to be voting citizens. They were allowed to vote for their own legislatures, their own state and their own state governo"}
{"id": "931322781", "date": "2020-11-04", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "'Atlantic' Writer Says Current Election Is A 'Stress Test' Of American Democracy", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, there is one precedent in Florida from 2000, when the Supreme Court stopped the recount, but they said that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they tried to do a quite systematic exercise in which they imagined every claim that Trump could make about the fraudulence or illegitimacy of the election or every move he could make using his "}
{"id": "931322781", "date": "2020-11-04", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "'Atlantic' Writer Says Current Election Is A 'Stress Test' Of American Democracy", "question_index": 11, "text": "That was a recount, and also the court said that should not be used as a precedent.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was a recount, and not a..."}
{"id": "931322781", "date": "2020-11-04", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "'Atlantic' Writer Says Current Election Is A 'Stress Test' Of American Democracy", "question_index": 12, "text": "So tell us about the Transition Integrity Project, which tried to game out possible scenarios after the election if the election was contested.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The court did say it was ruling uniquely in this one case, and it should not be cited by others in future cases. But let's keep in mind, the count went forward as it normally does in Florida, and the "}
{"id": "931322781", "date": "2020-11-04", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "'Atlantic' Writer Says Current Election Is A 'Stress Test' Of American Democracy", "question_index": 13, "text": "You asked the people who were running this project, like, so who won in this gaming exercise, Trump or Biden? And you got a very interesting answer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Transition Integrity Project was the creation of two professors who recruited a large team of journalists, former elected officials - including a former governor - former political operatives who "}
{"id": "931322781", "date": "2020-11-04", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "'Atlantic' Writer Says Current Election Is A 'Stress Test' Of American Democracy", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Barton Gellman. He's a staff writer for The Atlantic, and his latest articles are called \"How Trump Could Attempt A Coup\" and \"The Election That Could Break America.\" We recorded our conversation early this morning. We'll hear more of the interview after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I got a very frightening answer, to be honest. It was we don't know. I asked who was sworn in, who was inaugurated. They said they got to turmoil on the streets and significant violence and deadlock i"}
{"id": "931322781", "date": "2020-11-04", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "'Atlantic' Writer Says Current Election Is A 'Stress Test' Of American Democracy", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded early this morning with Barton Gellman, a staff writer for The Atlantic. His latest articles are titled \"The Election That Could Break America\" and \"How Trump Could Attempt A Coup.\" He's also the author of a book about the Cheney vice presidency called \"Angler,\" and that was in part about the expansion of executive power during the Bush-Cheney era. So if you see this current election as a stress test of our electoral system in a time of division, in a time when the president has refused to say he would willingly, peacefully hand over power if he loses, he's already said he was going to - you know, before the votes were completed, he said he was going to take the election to the Supreme Court. So if you see this election as a stress test of our system, how are we doing so far as of Wednesday morning when we were recording this? Let's start with the ways that you think our system actually held up in ways that you were not sure it would.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I got a very frightening answer, to be honest. It was we don't know. I asked who was sworn in, who was inaugurated. They said they got to turmoil on the streets and significant violence and deadlock i"}
{"id": "931322781", "date": "2020-11-04", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "'Atlantic' Writer Says Current Election Is A 'Stress Test' Of American Democracy", "question_index": 16, "text": "The Trump campaign had something called Election Day operations that were planned. What were those operations, and did they actually happen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there were several important items of good news on Election Day. There was no significant breakdown of the process under the stresses of COVID and the stresses of the highest turnout in a centur"}
{"id": "931322781", "date": "2020-11-04", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "'Atlantic' Writer Says Current Election Is A 'Stress Test' Of American Democracy", "question_index": 17, "text": "So do you think our election system depends on people functioning in an ethical way following the rules?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there was a lot of talk about recruiting an army of 50,000 strong volunteers. They called it the Army for Trump. And there were sort of marshal notes that were struck in describing what it would"}
{"id": "931322781", "date": "2020-11-04", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "'Atlantic' Writer Says Current Election Is A 'Stress Test' Of American Democracy", "question_index": 18, "text": "Let's take another break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Barton Gellman, a staff writer for The Atlantic, and his latest articles are titled \"The Election That Could Break America\" and \"How Trump Could Attempt A Coup.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It does because election authorities are, by and large, partisan authorities. They're either elected officials or, like, a secretary of state, who can be Democratic or Republican, or they're appointed"}
{"id": "931322781", "date": "2020-11-04", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "'Atlantic' Writer Says Current Election Is A 'Stress Test' Of American Democracy", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded early this morning with Barton Gellman, a staff writer for The Atlantic. His latest articles are called How \"Trump Could Attempt A Coup\" and \"The Election That Could Break America.\" So getting back to looking at this election as a stress test of our system, there were several judicial decisions that were made during this election. What about judicial decisions regarding the Postal Service?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It does because election authorities are, by and large, partisan authorities. They're either elected officials or, like, a secretary of state, who can be Democratic or Republican, or they're appointed"}
{"id": "931322781", "date": "2020-11-04", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "'Atlantic' Writer Says Current Election Is A 'Stress Test' Of American Democracy", "question_index": 20, "text": "Do we know how many votes might have been lost because that sweep was not done?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that was very interesting. The Postal Service had been badly damaged administratively by the - by a bunch of firings and procedural changes that were brought in by the new postmaster general, a "}
{"id": "931322781", "date": "2020-11-04", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "'Atlantic' Writer Says Current Election Is A 'Stress Test' Of American Democracy", "question_index": 21, "text": "Do we know - I mean, will we ever know the impact of the slowed down postal operations, decommissioning 10% of mail sorting machines in the post office, eliminating many ballot drop boxes, voter suppression, Trump casting doubt on the security of voting by mail, the pandemic? Will we ever know? Could we possibly ever know the effect of that on the final vote tally, like, all the votes that could have been but weren't, all the votes that were but weren't counted?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We do not know that now. I imagine we will know it because I believe that the court will require a careful accounting under oath. And I believe there are enough people in the Postal Service who have a"}
{"id": "931322781", "date": "2020-11-04", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "'Atlantic' Writer Says Current Election Is A 'Stress Test' Of American Democracy", "question_index": 22, "text": "Legally, you know, once this enters the legal system, if it does, the attorney general, William Barr, has really been a Trump loyalist. There's a new Supreme Court appointee just in time for the election, Amy Coney Barrett. And so Trump now has three appointees on the Supreme Court. What do you think the significance is of the three Trump appointees on the Supreme Court and of the seemingly close ties between Barr and Trump if we get into legal contests?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Look, in some cases, we can see what happens. So in Texas, in the county that incorporates Houston, the Republicans attempted to disqualify all of the ballots - and there were 130,000 of them - that h"}
{"id": "931322781", "date": "2020-11-04", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "'Atlantic' Writer Says Current Election Is A 'Stress Test' Of American Democracy", "question_index": 23, "text": "One more thing before we run out of time. If there's one thing that you could change about America's electoral system, what would it be?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it's good that you divided that question because they are two different things. Let's start with Barr and the Justice Department. In the ordinary course of events, when there is litigation in court"}
{"id": "931322781", "date": "2020-11-04", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "'Atlantic' Writer Says Current Election Is A 'Stress Test' Of American Democracy", "question_index": 24, "text": "Well, Barton Gellman, thank you so much for being with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'd abolish the Electoral College. I think that the distancing of the votes of the people from the outcome is something that we just shouldn't tolerate. We shouldn't tolerate a system that enabl"}
{"id": "931322781", "date": "2020-11-04", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "'Atlantic' Writer Says Current Election Is A 'Stress Test' Of American Democracy", "question_index": 25, "text": "Barton Gellman is a staff writer at The Atlantic. His latest articles are titled \"The Election That Could Break America\" and \"How Trump Could Attempt A Coup.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "931322781", "date": "2020-11-04", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "'Atlantic' Writer Says Current Election Is A 'Stress Test' Of American Democracy", "question_index": 26, "text": "After we take a short break, jazz critic Kevin Whitehead will review a new album by cornet player Ron Miles that also features guitarist Bill Frisell and pianist Jason Moran. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "931718840", "date": "2020-11-05", "guest": "Jack Goldsmith", "title": "Future Presidents Should Be Held More Accountable, 'After Trump' Author Says", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. In the new book \"After Trump: Reconstructing The Presidency, my guest Jack Goldsmith writes, no matter when Trump leaves office, his successor will face momentous and difficult questions about how to reconstruct the battered and much changed presidency that Trump will have left behind. Goldsmith points out, President Trump has said that Article 2 of the Constitution gives him the right to do whatever he wants. In doing what he's wanted to, Trump has attacked norms comprehensively and frequently and disregarded them openly. The new book spells out the norms Trump has broken and the weaknesses in accountability that have allowed him to do so. The book recommends reforms that will hold future presidents more accountable. Goldsmith is a Harvard law professor, co-founder of the Lawfare blog, and he headed the Office of Legal Counsel under President George W. Bush. Goldsmith resigned after withdrawing the so-called torture memos, memos written before his arrival that justified the use of torture on foreign combatants, memos Goldsmith said were overly broad and legally flawed. Goldsmith's new book is bipartisan. His co-author, Bob Bauer, served as White House counsel under President Obama and is now senior adviser on the Biden campaign. I should mention we're recording this interview early this morning. Jack Goldsmith, welcome back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "931718840", "date": "2020-11-05", "guest": "Jack Goldsmith", "title": "Future Presidents Should Be Held More Accountable, 'After Trump' Author Says", "question_index": 1, "text": "Do you think that President Trump may have changed the presidency for the long term?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much for having me."}
{"id": "931718840", "date": "2020-11-05", "guest": "Jack Goldsmith", "title": "Future Presidents Should Be Held More Accountable, 'After Trump' Author Says", "question_index": 2, "text": "What are some of his words and actions that you think most reveal the lack of accountability?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's a question that the future will answer. I do believe that he has taught us how the presidency can abused in a way - in ways that people who've studied the presidency for a long time reall"}
{"id": "931718840", "date": "2020-11-05", "guest": "Jack Goldsmith", "title": "Future Presidents Should Be Held More Accountable, 'After Trump' Author Says", "question_index": 3, "text": "Yeah. So you want to codify some of the norms in such a way that norm breakers can be held accountable. How do you do that with lying, with stating things that you probably know are not true - 'cause that is something Trump has done consistently through the presidency? What is a way of codifying that so that a president can't do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So there are a whole array of things. Going back to the 1970s, the last time we had comprehensive reform of the presidency was in the 1970s, after Watergate and Vietnam and the revelations of the Chur"}
{"id": "931718840", "date": "2020-11-05", "guest": "Jack Goldsmith", "title": "Future Presidents Should Be Held More Accountable, 'After Trump' Author Says", "question_index": 4, "text": "Trump owns properties or at least has branded properties in several countries around the world. Some of them are allies. Some of them are not allies, like Russia. And he has been often accused of using his office in the White House for personal gain even though he ostensibly put his businesses in blind trusts. It's his sons who control those business interests. And what's the likelihood that they haven't talked about it? And then, of course, you know, at Trump hotels, there have been Republican gatherings there. Secret Service have stayed at Trump properties. So how would you suggest preventing future presidents from using their office for personal gain, financial gain?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it's very hard to do. I mean, the American people are allowed to elect presidents who say and do all sorts of things and especially on the speech front. And a lot of Trump's norm-breaking has been "}
{"id": "931718840", "date": "2020-11-05", "guest": "Jack Goldsmith", "title": "Future Presidents Should Be Held More Accountable, 'After Trump' Author Says", "question_index": 5, "text": "So if we followed the guidelines you've laid out, people wouldn't be relying on the Emoluments Clause to show that there was an inappropriate gift taken from a foreign power.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. This has been one of the most serious problems of the Trump presidency. And it's - as you suggested, he established a blind trust, but there's no reason to think that it's really been blind. The"}
{"id": "931718840", "date": "2020-11-05", "guest": "Jack Goldsmith", "title": "Future Presidents Should Be Held More Accountable, 'After Trump' Author Says", "question_index": 6, "text": "You make a very interesting recommendation regarding taxes, which is instead of relying on the president to release their taxes, make it the responsibility of the IRS to release the president's taxes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. We don't think that - the Emoluments Clause is a provision of the Constitution that prohibits foreign governments from giving gifts to the president, put simply. And that's just - first of all, w"}
{"id": "931718840", "date": "2020-11-05", "guest": "Jack Goldsmith", "title": "Future Presidents Should Be Held More Accountable, 'After Trump' Author Says", "question_index": 7, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jack Goldsmith, co-author of the new book \"After Trump: Reconstructing The Presidency.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we put the duty, first of all, on the president. And if the president doesn't release or the presidential candidate doesn't release them in time, then we authorize the Treasury Department to do "}
{"id": "931718840", "date": "2020-11-05", "guest": "Jack Goldsmith", "title": "Future Presidents Should Be Held More Accountable, 'After Trump' Author Says", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded this morning with Jack Goldsmith, co-author of the new book \"After Trump: Reconstructing The Presidency,\" about what reforms need to be put in place to hold future presidents accountable and prevent them from violating norms in the way that President Trump has. Goldsmith is a Harvard law professor, and he headed the Office of Legal Counsel under George W. Bush. His co-author, Bob Bauer, was White House counsel under President Obama and is now a senior adviser to the Biden campaign. So the book is actually very bipartisan. This gets back to a speech question. The president has attacked his enemies verbally, on Twitter. And this includes journalists. This includes people who were in his administration who he fired. This includes Anthony Fauci. And the problem is he not only tries to discredit them, but when he does that, these people get death threats, really serious death threats. They have to protect themselves and their family after Trump goes after them. Now, what - do you have any suggestions of how to prevent future presidents from endangering the lives of people who the president doesn't like or who the president considers his opponents?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we put the duty, first of all, on the president. And if the president doesn't release or the presidential candidate doesn't release them in time, then we authorize the Treasury Department to do "}
{"id": "931718840", "date": "2020-11-05", "guest": "Jack Goldsmith", "title": "Future Presidents Should Be Held More Accountable, 'After Trump' Author Says", "question_index": 9, "text": "Let's talk about criminal charges. We've been talking about breaking norms. Do you think the president has actually broken laws?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Again, presidential speech is very hard to regulate directly. We don't have proposals to deal with that problem. I mean, Trump has been completely unprecedented in this regard in terms of attacking pe"}
{"id": "931718840", "date": "2020-11-05", "guest": "Jack Goldsmith", "title": "Future Presidents Should Be Held More Accountable, 'After Trump' Author Says", "question_index": 10, "text": "You headed the Office of Legal Counsel under President George W. Bush. And there's an Office of Legal Counsel memo that dates back before your time in the Bush administration that says a sitting president can't be indicted, or at least it's been interpreted as saying that. Where does that date back to? And what was the logic behind it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's clearly broken some laws. His - the delayed release of the money for Ukraine in an effort to get them to help him in the presidential election, independent of whether that effort to try to get Uk"}
{"id": "931718840", "date": "2020-11-05", "guest": "Jack Goldsmith", "title": "Future Presidents Should Be Held More Accountable, 'After Trump' Author Says", "question_index": 11, "text": "Just curious - did that come up at all when you were in the Bush administration and you headed the Office of Legal Counsel?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There were two opinions, actually. One opinion came right after Watergate in the '70s, and then a second opinion right at the end of the Clinton administration looked at the issue again, I guess, in t"}
{"id": "931718840", "date": "2020-11-05", "guest": "Jack Goldsmith", "title": "Future Presidents Should Be Held More Accountable, 'After Trump' Author Says", "question_index": 12, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Jack Goldsmith. He's the co-author of the new book \"After Trump: Reconstructing The Presidency.\" It's about what reforms need to be put in place to hold future presidents accountable and prevent them from violating norms in the way that President Trump has. Goldsmith is a Harvard law professor and served as the head of the Office of Legal Counsel under George W. Bush. His co-author, Bob Bauer, is a senior adviser to the Biden campaign and was White House counsel under President Obama. We'll be right back and talk more after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it didn't."}
{"id": "931718840", "date": "2020-11-05", "guest": "Jack Goldsmith", "title": "Future Presidents Should Be Held More Accountable, 'After Trump' Author Says", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded early this morning with Jack Goldsmith, co-author of the new book \"After Trump: Reconstructing The Presidency.\" It's about what reforms need to be put in place to hold future presidents accountable and to prevent them from violating norms in the way that President Trump has. Goldsmith is a Harvard Law professor. He headed the Office of Legal Counsel under George W. Bush. This book is bipartisan. Goldsmith's co-author, Bob Bauer, was White House counsel under President Obama and is a senior adviser to the Biden campaign. We've been talking about whether President Trump could face criminal charges after he leaves office because there are legal advisories from the Office of Legal Counsel saying that a sitting president cannot be indicted, but that doesn't say what would happen after the president leaves. So let's briefly talk about President Obama and what he faced when he took office. There was pressure on him to investigate members of the George W. Bush administration for war crimes for having tortured foreign combatants. And - refresh our memory - how did Obama respond to that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it didn't."}
{"id": "931718840", "date": "2020-11-05", "guest": "Jack Goldsmith", "title": "Future Presidents Should Be Held More Accountable, 'After Trump' Author Says", "question_index": 14, "text": "As we record this in the morning, we don't know what the outcome of the election is. But if Biden becomes president, I guess he'll have to face a similar decision about whether to use his Justice Department to investigate crimes that President Trump might have committed while in office.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A couple of things happened. First of all, Obama came into office and his basic position was, we fixed that problem, the law no longer allows that, whatever ambiguities there were in the law have been"}
{"id": "931718840", "date": "2020-11-05", "guest": "Jack Goldsmith", "title": "Future Presidents Should Be Held More Accountable, 'After Trump' Author Says", "question_index": 15, "text": "Let's get to another norm that President Trump has broken. Many people have said that President Trump has used the attorney general, William Barr, who Trump appointed, as his own personal lawyer and that the attorney general, William Barr, has treated Trump as if Trump was his client. Give us some examples that have led many people to make that accusation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He will, and I think it's going to be one of the most difficult issues he faces early in his presidency should he win. There's enormous pressure, even more so than was under Obama, to investigate and "}
{"id": "931718840", "date": "2020-11-05", "guest": "Jack Goldsmith", "title": "Future Presidents Should Be Held More Accountable, 'After Trump' Author Says", "question_index": 16, "text": "Wait. Wait. Can I intervene and say he released his interpretation of the Mueller report before allowing the Mueller report to be released.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. The real problem is, in my judgment, is in - the president's sidebar has made some big mistakes, and I'll get to those. But the real problem is that the president has, since the beginning of his"}
{"id": "931718840", "date": "2020-11-05", "guest": "Jack Goldsmith", "title": "Future Presidents Should Be Held More Accountable, 'After Trump' Author Says", "question_index": 17, "text": "What Barr was investigating was whether the Obama administration spied on the Trump campaign.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's true. He did that. I think that that was less of an inappropriate thing to do than the conventional wisdom was. There was enormous pressure on him to say something about what the Mueller report"}
{"id": "931718840", "date": "2020-11-05", "guest": "Jack Goldsmith", "title": "Future Presidents Should Be Held More Accountable, 'After Trump' Author Says", "question_index": 18, "text": "The origins of the Mueller report investigation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was - yeah, it was whether the Obama administration spied on the Trump campaign. But more than that, he was looking into - Durham appears to be looking into the origins of the investigation to see "}
{"id": "931718840", "date": "2020-11-05", "guest": "Jack Goldsmith", "title": "Future Presidents Should Be Held More Accountable, 'After Trump' Author Says", "question_index": 19, "text": "OK, let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jack Goldsmith. He's a Harvard law professor and co-author of the new book \"After Trump: Reconstructing The Presidency.\" We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, the origins going back to 2016 of the original FBI investigation of the Trump campaign that, a year later, turned into the Mueller investigation."}
{"id": "931718840", "date": "2020-11-05", "guest": "Jack Goldsmith", "title": "Future Presidents Should Be Held More Accountable, 'After Trump' Author Says", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Jack Goldsmith, co-author of the new book \"After Trump: Reconstructing The Presidency.\" It's about what reforms need to be put in place to hold future presidents accountable and prevent them from violating norms in the way that President Trump has. Goldsmith is a Harvard law professor. He headed the Office of Legal Counsel under George W. Bush. His co-author, Bob Bauer, was White House counsel under President Obama and is a senior adviser to the Biden campaign. So the book is very bipartisan in its approach. So what kinds of rules or laws are in effect that should prevent a president from using his attorney general as a private lawyer, as an ally?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, the origins going back to 2016 of the original FBI investigation of the Trump campaign that, a year later, turned into the Mueller investigation."}
{"id": "931718840", "date": "2020-11-05", "guest": "Jack Goldsmith", "title": "Future Presidents Should Be Held More Accountable, 'After Trump' Author Says", "question_index": 21, "text": "Every time somebody resigned because they didn't want to obstruct justice or carry out an order that they thought was inappropriate from President Trump - you know, they would resign or get fired and be replaced by somebody who was more amenable to carrying out Trump's orders.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So there are very few rules in effect that prevent it. They're almost all norms, and they're norms that have been abided by for 50 years and that Trump just blatantly violated. And once again, you can"}
{"id": "931718840", "date": "2020-11-05", "guest": "Jack Goldsmith", "title": "Future Presidents Should Be Held More Accountable, 'After Trump' Author Says", "question_index": 22, "text": "You point out in the book that the president's war powers have expanded over the years. And many people have been concerned about President Trump's authority over, you know, nuclear weapons. He threatened to totally destroy North Korea. And, you know, many people consider President Trump to be very impulsive, to not be very informed, to not have the attention span required to really understand policy and the history behind that policy. What are your concerns about the president's authority to launch nuclear weapons and how you'd like to see that authority change?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think that's always true. Jim Comey was fired, and his successor, Chris Wray, has not caved to the president. He's stood up to the president at appropriate points. The president's very angry a"}
{"id": "931718840", "date": "2020-11-05", "guest": "Jack Goldsmith", "title": "Future Presidents Should Be Held More Accountable, 'After Trump' Author Says", "question_index": 23, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jack Goldsmith, co-author of the new book \"After Trump: Reconstructing The Presidency.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So this is obviously perhaps the most consequential power that the president possesses because nuclear weapons can destroy the world or a large chunk of it. And the president, under the current arrang"}
{"id": "931718840", "date": "2020-11-05", "guest": "Jack Goldsmith", "title": "Future Presidents Should Be Held More Accountable, 'After Trump' Author Says", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded this morning with Jack Goldsmith, co-author of the new book \"After Trump: Reconstructing The Presidency,\" about what reforms need to be put in place to hold future presidents accountable and prevent them from violating norms in the way that President Trump has. Goldsmith is a Harvard law professor, and he headed the Office of Legal Counsel under George W. Bush. His co-author, Bob Bauer, was White House counsel under President Obama and is now a senior adviser to the Biden campaign. So the book is actually very bipartisan. There are so many other examples we can talk about about how President Trump has violated norms of the presidency. I want to ask you a little bit about yourself. You decided to leave the Republican Party after - I think it was right after Trump won the nomination. And you became an independent. You didn't become a Democrat. You became an independent. Many Republicans left the party. The Lincoln Project, which advocated for Joe Biden during the election, they're all Republicans who left the party because of Trump. I'm wondering, what do you think is left of the Republican Party now, the party that you knew when you were part of it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So this is obviously perhaps the most consequential power that the president possesses because nuclear weapons can destroy the world or a large chunk of it. And the president, under the current arrang"}
{"id": "931718840", "date": "2020-11-05", "guest": "Jack Goldsmith", "title": "Future Presidents Should Be Held More Accountable, 'After Trump' Author Says", "question_index": 25, "text": "We're recording this in the morning, early in the morning. So there will be more votes counted by the time our listeners hear this. And we might know who won the election, but the winner might also be challenged in court. One way or another, President Trump will remain in office at least through the Inauguration Day. What can Trump still do to violate norms in the remaining time of his presidency if he loses?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the reason I left the Republican Party was because I just found a lot of Trump's positions on things not to be conservative or what I think of as traditional Republican positions and especially "}
{"id": "931718840", "date": "2020-11-05", "guest": "Jack Goldsmith", "title": "Future Presidents Should Be Held More Accountable, 'After Trump' Author Says", "question_index": 26, "text": "Jack Goldsmith, thank you so much for talking with us. I really appreciate it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Unfortunately, the list is long, and I expect him to do many of these things. At the top of the list is we can expect him to pardon everybody that's conceivably in criminal legal jeopardy related to a"}
{"id": "931718840", "date": "2020-11-05", "guest": "Jack Goldsmith", "title": "Future Presidents Should Be Held More Accountable, 'After Trump' Author Says", "question_index": 27, "text": "Jack Goldsmith is co-author with Bob Bauer of the new book \"After Trump: Reconstructing The Presidency.\" If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed - like our interview with Jerald Walker, the author of \"Street Shadows: A Memoir Of Race, Rebellion, And Redemption\" and a new collection of personal essays called \"How To Make A Slave,\" or our interview with Atlantic staff writer Bart Gellman about how this election has been a stress test of our electoral system - check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I appreciate it very much. Thank you for your time."}
{"id": "931718840", "date": "2020-11-05", "guest": "Jack Goldsmith", "title": "Future Presidents Should Be Held More Accountable, 'After Trump' Author Says", "question_index": 28, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham with assistance from Charlie Kaier. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Kayla Lattimore. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Therese Madden directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I appreciate it very much. Thank you for your time."}
{"id": "931330531", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Marge Champion", "title": "Remembering Dancer And Choreographer Marge Champion", "question_index": 0, "text": "There's a dance that you did in \"Follies\" with Donald Saddler called Dance D'amour (ph). And I want to read something that Nancy Franklin in The New Yorker wrote about this. And I should explain that you're dancing, and then a couple that represents your younger counterparts are dancing, too.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Next, we're going to remember the dancer and choreographer, Marge Champion. She died two weeks ago at the age of 101. Her New York Times obituary described her as the dancer and cho"}
{"id": "931330531", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Marge Champion", "title": "Remembering Dancer And Choreographer Marge Champion", "question_index": 1, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Are ghosts."}
{"id": "931330531", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Marge Champion", "title": "Remembering Dancer And Choreographer Marge Champion", "question_index": 2, "text": "And they're shadowing your moves. So Nancy Franklin writes, (reading) The older couple - which is you and Donald Saddler - the older couple make gravity work in their favor. They dance together as two human beings, not as two perfect but easily replaceable instruments. Champion and Saddler, both of whom are in the ballpark of 80, are radiant. There's something in their eyes that is missing from the youth behind them. When the young man carries his partner off the stage on his shoulder, it's about for muscles. When Champion and Saddler glide off the dance floor, his arm wrapped around her, the counterpoint is deeply moving. He can't carry her off the stage, but he doesn't need to. Their movement expresses their love and support for each other. It's the most romantic moment in the show. I'm wondering if you felt more frustration or pleasure when you were doing the number - frustration at the limitations of your body or pleasure at what your body was able to do in spite of the fact that you're in your 80s.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "These are our darling ghosts."}
{"id": "931330531", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Marge Champion", "title": "Remembering Dancer And Choreographer Marge Champion", "question_index": 3, "text": "As a child, you were the live-action model for the animated Disney movie \"Snow White\" and for the dancing hippo in Disney's \"Fantasia.\" What exactly was required of you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "to do the lifts and spins."}
{"id": "931330531", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Marge Champion", "title": "Remembering Dancer And Choreographer Marge Champion", "question_index": 4, "text": "So in part, you were responsible for the choreography, but I imagine the animators were also looking at your anatomy when you danced or moved in a certain way...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A couple of days a month, I would - when I was 14, when I was 15, when I was 16, I went to the studio, and they would show me storyboards. And they had very crude - they were 16 mm, very hot lights so"}
{"id": "931330531", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Marge Champion", "title": "Remembering Dancer And Choreographer Marge Champion", "question_index": 5, "text": "...So that they could draw it correctly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "931330531", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Marge Champion", "title": "Remembering Dancer And Choreographer Marge Champion", "question_index": 6, "text": "So they could see more of you anatomically?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, well, in some cases, as in the part of \"Fantasia\" where Louis Hightower, who was my - he was a student at my father's school and my partner at that time. We danced as the alligator and the hippo "}
{"id": "931330531", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Marge Champion", "title": "Remembering Dancer And Choreographer Marge Champion", "question_index": 7, "text": "Some of the movies that you and Gower Champion danced in include \"Jupiter's Darling,\" \"Three For The Show,\" \"Give A Girl A Break,\" \"Everything I Have Is Yours,\" \"Lovely To Look At\" and \"Show Boat.\" Let's talk a little bit about how dance was filmed in Hollywood in the '50s. One difference between now and then is that, first of all, you, more often than not, see the whole body dancing. You're not just looking at the feet or just looking at the torso. You're seeing the whole body. And the takes are so much longer. There isn't, like, 17 edits in a dance sequence. And, you know, I mean, you just see uninterrupted movement, and then maybe there's an edit. Talk a little bit about how the sequences were filmed and what the language of the day was.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And that was the purpose of a great deal of it, even though they translated me to this hilarious hippopotamus with a little ballet skirt, you know? But even after \"Snow White\" - in '37, \"Snow Whi"}
{"id": "931330531", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Marge Champion", "title": "Remembering Dancer And Choreographer Marge Champion", "question_index": 8, "text": "This was in the movie \"Lovely To Look At.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "First of all, you had a big rehearsal hall, especially if it was a big number, like \"Smoke Gets In Your Eyes.\" There were only two people in it, but we had the biggest soundstage at MGM to film that."}
{"id": "931330531", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Marge Champion", "title": "Remembering Dancer And Choreographer Marge Champion", "question_index": 9, "text": "You did a lot of dancing in heels...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And you had a month to rehearse. And every single thing would be thought out from the viewpoint of not only the camera and what angle you wanted, but also the editor. You had to do what they ca"}
{"id": "931330531", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Marge Champion", "title": "Remembering Dancer And Choreographer Marge Champion", "question_index": 10, "text": "But still, they were heels. Many of us would find it difficult enough to walk in heels, let alone to dance and come down from lifts in heels. Was that ever a problem for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very, very low ones."}
{"id": "931330531", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Marge Champion", "title": "Remembering Dancer And Choreographer Marge Champion", "question_index": 11, "text": "Marge Champion, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it was always a problem. And that's why, in clubs, I very often didn't. I wore what they called Hermes sandals and made those pretty popular, but they were never more than an inch and a half beca"}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Cecile McLorin Salvant, welcome to FRESH AIR. I really like that you choose songs in the jazz standard repertoire and songs way outside", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Why should I fella want a girl like her, a frail and fluffy beauty? Why can't a fella ever once prefer a solid girl like me? She's a frothy little bubble with a flimsy kind of air. And with "}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 1, "text": "of the repertoire, like \"Stepsister's Lament.\" When I heard you sing that live, you said that the first version of that you heard was actually sung by Brandy. Tell us how old you were then and what that song meant to you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Why should I fella want a girl like her, a frail and fluffy beauty? Why can't a fella ever once prefer a solid girl like me? She's a frothy little bubble with a flimsy kind of air. And with "}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 2, "text": "Oh, I see.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was actually not sung by Brandy; it was sung by these two actresses who were in the movie with Brandy who played her stepsisters."}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 3, "text": "I should've figured that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So Brandy was Cinderella, and then she had these two awful stepsisters who sang the song."}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Now, I want to compare \"Stepsister's Lament\" from \"Cinderella,\" your version of that, with an original song that you wrote that's on your new album. And this is a song called \"Look At Me.\" And the feeling of the song is kind of similar. The lyric includes the line, look at me - why don't you look at me the way you look at all the other girls you see? Can you talk a little bit about writing the song before we hear it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'll say I was around 10. And I related with it because, you know, it's the point of view of the girl who is often invisible and looked over. And I definitely felt that way and feel that way still a l"}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Well, this is a beautiful ballad. The style of the song is the opposite of \"Stepsister's Lament.\" So let's hear Cecile McLorin Salvant's song \"Look At Me\" from her new album \"For One To Love.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wrote that - I have a good friend that started sending me poems via email. And I would respond, and we just started writing like that. It had been such a long time since I'd just written poems with,"}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 6, "text": "That's Cecile McLorin Salvant from her new album \"For One To Love.\" It's a song she wrote called \"Look At Me.\" So now that you're onstage and becoming famous within the jazz world, more people are looking at you - I mean, literally. Do you like being the focus of attention when you're onstage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Look at me. Why don't you look at me the way you look at all the other girls you see? I'm your friend. I guess I'll always be. But I'm in love with you endlessly. All the time - all of the t"}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it's weird. I'll say, in a way, I love it. I mean, I do love being onstage. And I've always loved playing a character and being watched doing that. I remember in school, in elementary school, I us"}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 8, "text": "That's a very strong word.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Portrayal of whatever it was, you know. But in another sense, I don't like being the focus of attention. It makes me very uncomfortable. And it's part of the reason I never look at videos of myself"}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well, we need to talk about your incredible voice. When I listen to you, I hear elements of Sarah Vaughan, Abbey Lincoln, Betty Carter, Billie Holiday. When you started listening to those singers, did you, when you were young, try to copy them to really learn how they did what they did, the way some writers copy paragraphs of favorite writers to better understand the structure and flow of the words in their favorite writers' sentences?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I don't know. I just don't like to be in my own - I'm already myself, so I don't like to be in my own - like, watch myself."}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 10, "text": "So after listening so obsessively to so many singers, did you ever go through an identity crisis as a singer yourself and wonder, but who am I? I can sound like these people. I love those people. But what is uniquely me?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would say, for certain singers, I definitely went through that. I definitely went through that with Sarah Vaughan. As - I think I started really falling in love with her voice when I was about 14. M"}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 11, "text": "You have such an amazing instrument. I mean, you have such an amazing voice. And you use it with such emotional and tonal and notey (ph) range.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2015 interview with singer Cecile McLorin Salvant. She is a 2020 MacArthur Fellow."}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 12, "text": "So I also think that, like, writing your own songs is probably helping you find, like, your own musical identity.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2015 interview with singer Cecile McLorin Salvant. She is a 2020 MacArthur Fellow."}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 13, "text": "One of the things I really like about your repertoire is that you go back to early jazz, and you find music from the early 19th century - early 20th century, I mean - and from the 1920s and '30s. And how did you decide to go back that far? - because a lot of singers don't.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 14, "text": "I'm glad you said that because the song - next song I want to play is a Bert Williams song. And he's part of, like, the minstrel era. And he is an African American man who sang in blackface. And I think because of that, until recently he was pretty much ignored. I think his work was considered an embarrassment. But you do what is probably his most famous song, which is called \"Nobody.\" You did that on your previous album, \"WomanChild.\" So I'd like you to tell us why you chose that song and how you thought it would work for you - like, what you did with it that you thought would suit, like, your voice and your personality.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I'm fascinated with history and just - in general. And I'm always interested in how did this come to be? Why is this the way it is? And even singing classical voice, I quickly became more and "}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 15, "text": "So let's hear \"Nobody.\" And my guest is Cecile McLorin Salvant. She has a new album called \"For One To Love.\" But this version of the Bert Williams song \"Nobody\" is from her previous album, which is called \"WomanChild.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't know about Bert Williams until I read this book. I didn't even know, really, what blackface and minstrel shows were, let alone that Black people actually were blackface performers as well and"}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 16, "text": "I'm glad that you decided to go back to the early 20th century and do that song and to not be put off by the politics of blackface and to just find what is musically interesting in that and what is musically interesting and humanly interesting about Bert Williams, in spite of how he had to compromise himself with - by wearing blackface.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross. We're back with Terry's interview with jazz singer Cecile McLorin Salvant recorded in 2015. She is a 2020 MacArthur Fellow. Her repertoire r"}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 17, "text": "American music is so complicated in terms of its ancestry", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think it's just really - just the idea of blackface itself is just so - it's not just a terrible thing, I think. There is also the idea of, like, these people are reclaiming in some sense some"}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think it's just really - just the idea of blackface itself is just so - it's not just a terrible thing, I think. There is also the idea of, like, these people are reclaiming in some sense some"}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 19, "text": "Yeah, it just goes back and forth, which is great. I mean, you know, it's that kind of, like, crossbreeding of musical styles that makes it so rich. You've also gone back and looked for songs by women composers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it really is."}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 20, "text": "Like, you do a song by Blanche Calloway, Cab Calloway's sister, on your new album. You do some Clarence Williams songs from, I guess, the 1930s. And in addition to finding a lot of old songs, I think you're trying to turn recent songs, some recent songs or at least one recent song, on its head", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 21, "text": "and kind of reinterpret it. And I'm thinking of \"Wives And Lovers,\" which is just one of the all-time, like, sexist songs. It was a 1963 hit by Jack Jones, music by Burt Bacharach and lyric by Hal David. And they are such a fabulous songwriting team.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 22, "text": "And I don't know this particular song happened.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 23, "text": "But why in the world would you sing a song that - why don't you recite the lyric?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Why? Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". For wives should always be lovers, too. Run to his arms the moment he comes home to you. I'm warning you."}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Yeah, I'll say.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It was very difficult to find. And so I decided, let me just check to see - let me just check out if there are any sexist songs. And, of course, that was a lot easier."}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 26, "text": "OK, so", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that song happens to - it just - it happens to be so catchy. And it's - I love that song, and I think it's hilarious. And it actually - I remember playing it for a few friends, and we had this big"}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 27, "text": "we should hear a little bit of you singing it. So this is \"Wives And Lovers\" from Cecile McLorin Salvant's new album \"For One To Love.\" So as you listen, go comb your hair and fix your makeup. Here we go.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that song happens to - it just - it happens to be so catchy. And it's - I love that song, and I think it's hilarious. And it actually - I remember playing it for a few friends, and we had this big"}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 28, "text": "That's Cecile McLorin Salvant from her new album \"For One To Love.\" I feel like there should be, like, giant quotation marks around that song when you sing it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Hey, little girl. Comb your hair. Fix your makeup. Soon he will open the door. Don't think because there's a ring on your finger you needn't try any more. For wives should always be lovers, "}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 29, "text": "Because you're singing it straight. Like, you know, if you just played that for me, I wouldn't know that you thought...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Hey, little girl. Comb your hair. Fix your makeup. Soon he will open the door. Don't think because there's a ring on your finger you needn't try any more. For wives should always be lovers, "}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 30, "text": "...Like, that's, like, an incredibly sexist but very catchy song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 31, "text": "Of course, it's catchy. I mean, Burt Bacharach wrote the music. Like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 32, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, of course. But, I mean, you would still - you wouldn't - I feel like today, hearing that song today, you wouldn't be like, OK, I need to go fix myself up and, you know, wax and..."}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 33, "text": "So I'm just wondering, when you look for sexist songs, what are some of the ones that came up that you decided not to do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". My hair's really short. So I think that kind of lets people know that I don't really..."}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 34, "text": "Right. Phil Spector produced that one.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"He Hit Me (And It Felt Like A Kiss)\" - that one is..."}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 35, "text": "And that's more of a girl group, like, a rock 'n' roll girl group song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That one..."}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 36, "text": "Oh, that's Fanny Brice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. And I don't - yeah, that one is - that one definitely stays with me. And I'm thinking that maybe it'll come up. There's other songs that are - I don't know if I would say that they're comp"}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 37, "text": "I kind of like that song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 38, "text": "My baby likes bacon, and that's what I'm making.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I kind of like it, too, you know. And..."}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 39, "text": "So I'm cooking breakfast for the one I love", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. (Singing) So that's I'm making."}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 40, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. (Singing) So that's I'm making."}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 41, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, I - that's not really - it's sexist in the context that it was written. But a man could sing that to me. I'd be very happy to hear it."}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 42, "text": "So I meant how many years you could have studied it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So you're a jazz singer, but you studied classical voice for many years. Many years - I mean, you're only 26."}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 43, "text": "But you started when you were really young. So were you listening to a lot of classical music when you were young?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 44, "text": "You're talking about opera here?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, I wasn't listening to that much classical music, not much more than anything else. We - I was really lucky to have parents who loved all kinds of music. So we'd listen to a lot of different "}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 45, "text": "So when you were making the transition from being a classical singer to being a jazz singer, what did you change about your voice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, opera. Yeah. So that's what really fascinated me."}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 46, "text": "Well, I'd like to end with one more song, and I was thinking of \"The Trolley Song\" from your new album, which is a song that Martin and Blane wrote for \"Meet Me In St. Louis,\" for the movie starring Judy Garland, who sings this in a great scene in the movie. Why did you choose this song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did everything I could to not bring in any of the technical things I got from classical into jazz. And I did everything to really base it on my speaking voice and to just not try to make it sound pr"}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 47, "text": "And this is the same movie that \"Have Yourself A Merry Little Christmas\" was written for.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It was - I would watch it maybe six, eight times a day, maybe more. Any time I had a moment, I would sit down, find it on YouTube and watch it. And it just became clear that I needed to sing it. Lik"}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 48, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Oh gosh."}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 49, "text": "Cecile McLorin Salvant, it's just been wonderful to talk with you. Thank you so much. And I look forward to hearing much more of your singing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my goodness."}
{"id": "932068364", "date": "2020-11-06", "guest": "Cecile Mclorin Salvant", "title": "Jazz Singer C\u00e9cile McLorin Salvant Doesn't Want To Sound 'Clean And Pretty'", "question_index": 50, "text": "Well, thank you. And I'm a big fan of your singing. So great to have you on the show. And here's Cecile McLorin Salvant singing \"The Trolley Song.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. It's been a pleasure and an honor. And I'm an absolute crazy fan."}
{"id": "933077066", "date": "2020-11-09", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Long-Time 'Jeopardy!' Host Alex Trebek", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're going to listen back to our interview with Alex Trebek, the longtime host of the popular quiz show \"Jeopardy!\" He died yesterday of pancreatic cancer. He was 80. Trebek won seven Daytime Emmys for Outstanding Game Show Host, the latest was last June. And he received a Lifetime Achievement Award from the National Academy of Television Arts and Sciences. In 2011, he received a Peabody Award for, quote, \"encouraging, celebrating and rewarding knowledge,\" unquote. He's in the Guinness Book of World Records for most game show episodes hosted by the same presenter. That's more than 8,000 episodes. He started hosting the show in 1984. I spoke with him in his third year, 1987. \"Jeopardy!\" is somewhere between a trivia quiz and an IQ test. Contestants try to earn prize money by answering questions in different categories. Trebek would give the answer. The contestant would have to give the question, like this.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "933077066", "date": "2020-11-09", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Long-Time 'Jeopardy!' Host Alex Trebek", "question_index": 1, "text": "Maybe a lot of viewers already know the answer to this, but I don't. What's the rationale for having to give the answer in the form of a question?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The answer there is an audio daily double."}
{"id": "933077066", "date": "2020-11-09", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Long-Time 'Jeopardy!' Host Alex Trebek", "question_index": 2, "text": "I've seen times when a contestant has lost money because instead of saying, what is the Brooklyn Bridge, Alex, they say, the Brooklyn Bridge. Does it make you feel bad when you have to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Basically, it's a gimmick. But it is the gimmick that makes \"Jeopardy!\" unique among quiz programs. It adds one step to a mental process that is already very difficult for our contestants. And it happ"}
{"id": "933077066", "date": "2020-11-09", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Long-Time 'Jeopardy!' Host Alex Trebek", "question_index": 3, "text": "...Disqualify an answer because it wasn't asked in the form of a question?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure."}
{"id": "933077066", "date": "2020-11-09", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Long-Time 'Jeopardy!' Host Alex Trebek", "question_index": 4, "text": "Do you guys ever make mistakes in what you think the correct answer is and have to correct it after the commercial?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely. I'm not a mean person. I'm there to see that the contestants do as well as they possibly can within the context of the rules. Now, we are lenient to a certain extent. In the Jeopardy! "}
{"id": "933077066", "date": "2020-11-09", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Long-Time 'Jeopardy!' Host Alex Trebek", "question_index": 5, "text": "I don't know what your role is in choosing the contestants. Are you involved in that process?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Usually our facts are correct, but they may be incomplete. A contestant who knows a great deal about a particular subject may be able to enlighten us and say, hey; this really is right. I'm a nuclear "}
{"id": "933077066", "date": "2020-11-09", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Long-Time 'Jeopardy!' Host Alex Trebek", "question_index": 6, "text": "It sounds like it's quite an elaborate process. Contestants have to take tests and then do sample shows before you pass them and make them an official contestant.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. The networks are very sensitive to the old scandal problem that gave them a great deal of concern in the 1950s. And so what they like to have is a separation of powers or a separation of personnel"}
{"id": "933077066", "date": "2020-11-09", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Long-Time 'Jeopardy!' Host Alex Trebek", "question_index": 7, "text": "For a lot of people, I think getting on a game show is a peak experience. You're not only on TV, but you're also able to make a lot of money while you're on TV, bringing together two of the great American dreams. And people would be so nervous in that moment that I'd imagine a lot of people freeze once the cameras turn on.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. It's probably the most difficult test of any show on the air right now, and it has to be. We want our contestants to have a broad base knowledge. We want them to be able to recall informat"}
{"id": "933077066", "date": "2020-11-09", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Long-Time 'Jeopardy!' Host Alex Trebek", "question_index": 8, "text": "Does that happen a lot? Really? They're that well prepared, huh (ph)?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not really."}
{"id": "933077066", "date": "2020-11-09", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Long-Time 'Jeopardy!' Host Alex Trebek", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well, thanks for talking with us, Alex.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It doesn't really happen on \"Jeopardy!,\" and I'll tell you why. Most game shows or quiz shows are taped five programs in one day, so you need a whole week's supply of contestants on that particular da"}
{"id": "933077066", "date": "2020-11-09", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Long-Time 'Jeopardy!' Host Alex Trebek", "question_index": 10, "text": "OK. My interview with Alex Trebek was recorded in 1987. He died of pancreatic cancer yesterday. He was 80. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, imagine standing in a soccer field when suddenly the medical device in your chest shoots 2,000 volts of electricity directly to your heart. Our guest will be Katherine Standefer, whose new memoir is about living with an implanted cardiac defibrillator and struggling to keep health insurance as Congress was trying to abolish the Affordable Care Act. She also writes about visiting precious metal mines in Africa to investigate the human cost of making exotic medical devices. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My pleasure, Terry."}
{"id": "933077066", "date": "2020-11-09", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Long-Time 'Jeopardy!' Host Alex Trebek", "question_index": 11, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Kayla Lattimore. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavey-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My pleasure, Terry."}
{"id": "934117807", "date": "2020-11-12", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Details 'Potential Mischief' Of Trump's Remaining Weeks In Office", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Presidents typically reserve their most controversial decisions for their last weeks in office, writes my guest, journalist Garrett Graff. He says, so imagine what might happen in a post-election period when Donald Trump, a president who has spent four years demonstrating his lack of interest in norms and practices of a democracy, retains all the powers and authority of the presidency and officially has nothing left to lose. In an article in Politico Magazine, Graff lays out some of the norm-busting actions Trump may take in the days remaining in his presidency. Graff wrote that article just before the election. Since then, President Trump has broken other norms by refusing to concede the election, making baseless allegations of widespread voter fraud and pursuing legal challenges. Trump is also standing in the way of a smooth transition by blocking President-elect Biden's access to the funding allocated for the transition process and blocking access to classified information, such as the presidential daily briefing, that is supposed to be granted to a president-elect. Garrett Graff also wrote a recent article in Politico Magazine about what Trump might do after leaving the White House. Graff is a former editor of Politico Magazine and is a contributor to Wired. He's written books about Robert Mueller's tenure as FBI director, a history of the secret bunkers built to protect government leaders in case of nuclear attack and an oral history of Sept. 11. He's also the director of the cyber initiative at the Aspen Institute. Our interview was recorded yesterday. Garrett Graff, welcome back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "934117807", "date": "2020-11-12", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Details 'Potential Mischief' Of Trump's Remaining Weeks In Office", "question_index": 1, "text": "Let's start with a couple of the - what you consider most norm-breaking things President Trump has done so far to interfere with the transfer of power.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks so much for having me, Terry."}
{"id": "934117807", "date": "2020-11-12", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Details 'Potential Mischief' Of Trump's Remaining Weeks In Office", "question_index": 2, "text": "Attorney General William Barr has given federal prosecutors approval to pursue allegations of, quote, \"voter tabulation irregularities\" in certain cases before results are certified. But he added, in terms of investigating voter fraud, specious, speculative, fanciful or far-fetched claims should not be a basis for initiating federal inquiries. So what does that mean? 'Cause you could argue that all of Trump's claims about voter fraud are specious, speculative, fanciful or far-fetched.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The biggest one has to just be the simple fact that he has not yet accepted the projected winner of the election being Joe Biden. This is a very different situation than we faced in 2000 with the Flor"}
{"id": "934117807", "date": "2020-11-12", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Details 'Potential Mischief' Of Trump's Remaining Weeks In Office", "question_index": 3, "text": "Mark Esper, the secretary of defense, was fired this week - so were three other top officials in the Defense Department. After being fired, Esper said, who's going to come in behind me? It's going to be a real yes man, and then God help us. What went through your mind when he said that? And I ask you this because you wrote a book about the United States government's doomsday plans - in other words, if there is a nuclear attack, where are the secret bunkers? Who in the government gets to go in those secret bunkers? What's the chain of command? How do they operate afterwards? So I know you've given a lot of thought to the nuclear football and what happens before and after a nuclear attack. So, you know, the God-help-us made me kind of think - is Esper thinking about a nuclear issue?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And on the one hand, it seems a little too early to know whether this Barr memo is just sort of bluster and performative to give Donald Trump a little bit of cover as he carries out these, as yo"}
{"id": "934117807", "date": "2020-11-12", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Details 'Potential Mischief' Of Trump's Remaining Weeks In Office", "question_index": 4, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is journalist Garrett Graff. His recent articles in Politico Magazine are about norms President Trump may break between the election and Joe Biden's inauguration and what Trump might do after leaving office. We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's possible. The reason - there are sort of two reasons to be specifically concerned about Esper's firing. One is that one of the main sources of tension between Donald Trump and Mark Esper earlier "}
{"id": "934117807", "date": "2020-11-12", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Details 'Potential Mischief' Of Trump's Remaining Weeks In Office", "question_index": 5, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with journalist Garrett Graff about his two latest articles in Politico Magazine - norms President Trump may break in the days remaining in his presidency and what he may do after leaving the White House. One of the things you speculate about, which may already be happening, is that President Trump can take revenge on the deep state in his lame-duck weeks. What do you mean by that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's possible. The reason - there are sort of two reasons to be specifically concerned about Esper's firing. One is that one of the main sources of tension between Donald Trump and Mark Esper earlier "}
{"id": "934117807", "date": "2020-11-12", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Details 'Potential Mischief' Of Trump's Remaining Weeks In Office", "question_index": 6, "text": "Is there another example of that that you can think of?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, we have seen Donald Trump sort of rail against the government bureaucracy, the career civil servants in the military, in the intelligence community, across the rest of the federal govern"}
{"id": "934117807", "date": "2020-11-12", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Details 'Potential Mischief' Of Trump's Remaining Weeks In Office", "question_index": 7, "text": "So the administrator of the General Services Administration, Emily Murphy - who's a Trump appointee - she has to formally recognize Biden as the president-elect before the transfer of power can actually begin. She's declined to do that so far. So that's what is blocking all the transition funding. That's what's blocking Biden's ability to get the presidential daily briefing. It's what's blocking his ability to get the funding to launch his new administration. How unprecedented is this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's the main one that sticks out right now. But, again, you know, we're just a couple of days into this transition period. And, frankly, we're still in the portion where Donald Trump doesn't expect"}
{"id": "934117807", "date": "2020-11-12", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Details 'Potential Mischief' Of Trump's Remaining Weeks In Office", "question_index": 8, "text": "Does Trump legally have to concede before the Biden administration moves forward, before Biden is named, you know, officially president, before he's certified?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Totally unprecedented. We're already calling Joe Biden the president-elect, but there are really two moments where a president officially and legally becomes president-elect. And the first is when he "}
{"id": "934117807", "date": "2020-11-12", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Details 'Potential Mischief' Of Trump's Remaining Weeks In Office", "question_index": 9, "text": "Now, I think you said that the head of the General Service Administration, Emily Murphy, is waiting for Trump to concede before she certifies Joe Biden as the president-elect. But does she legally have to wait for Trump to concede before certifying Biden?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So in theory, no. Joe Biden - presumably, over the next couple of weeks, states will certify their own election results, which is a formal process done generally by either the governor or the secretar"}
{"id": "934117807", "date": "2020-11-12", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Details 'Potential Mischief' Of Trump's Remaining Weeks In Office", "question_index": 10, "text": "Do you think that this is in a way, like, the ultimate norm-breaker, you know, refusing to concede, saying that there was, you know, massive fraud when there was not or there's absolutely no evidence of that and blocking the next president from beginning his transition? I mean, Biden's moving forward anyways. But, you know, there's things that he doesn't have access to. There's money that Biden doesn't have access to. Is this the ultimate in breaking norms? You know, American democracy depends on a president leaving power when he's lost the election, as Trump clearly has.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not at all. This is a decision that she alone can make at any time. She can ascertain, officially, Joe Biden as the president-elect whenever she wants, and the fact that she has not is troubling and w"}
{"id": "934117807", "date": "2020-11-12", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Details 'Potential Mischief' Of Trump's Remaining Weeks In Office", "question_index": 11, "text": "Let me introduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Garrett Graff. And his recent articles in Politico Magazine are about norms President Trump may break between the election and Joe Biden's inauguration and what Trump might do after leaving office. We'll talk more after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. And I would sort of go one step further, which is to say this president's unwillingness to concede in what by all stretch of, you know, bipartisan agreement is a legitimate, free and fair "}
{"id": "934117807", "date": "2020-11-12", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Details 'Potential Mischief' Of Trump's Remaining Weeks In Office", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with journalist Garrett Graff. His two latest articles in Politico Magazine are about what norms President Trump may break in the remaining weeks of his presidency and what Trump may do after leaving the White House, including how he might try to make money to pay off his debts That will be coming due. Graff is a former editor of Politico Magazine, the author of several books, including one about Robert Mueller and is the director of cyber initiatives at the Aspen Institute. Now, another category of concerns you bring up in terms of what Trump may do in his lame duck weeks is to destroy records, like, White House records and obstruct access to information for Biden when he becomes president. So what are some of the things that you're concerned Trump might do to destroy or hide or block access to records of his presidency?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. And I would sort of go one step further, which is to say this president's unwillingness to concede in what by all stretch of, you know, bipartisan agreement is a legitimate, free and fair "}
{"id": "934117807", "date": "2020-11-12", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Details 'Potential Mischief' Of Trump's Remaining Weeks In Office", "question_index": 13, "text": "So during the Trump presidency, Trump spoke several times and met with Vladimir Putin but kept the content of those conversations secret. Is there any way to get access to those records? Is there any way for Biden to get access to those records?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So there are sort of two directions of this fear. One is documents that could be destroyed such that we never understand how debates unfold or in situations like, for instance, the child separat"}
{"id": "934117807", "date": "2020-11-12", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Details 'Potential Mischief' Of Trump's Remaining Weeks In Office", "question_index": 14, "text": "Let's talk about some of the relatively conventional things that Trump might do during his lame duck weeks. In your article, you write about pardons, pardons he might give to protect his family and people who have protected him. Who are you thinking of that he could possibly pardon before leaving office?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The short answer is there should be, you know, those types of documents, even if they are highly classified, should be protected from destruction legally. Whether that actually stands out in this case"}
{"id": "934117807", "date": "2020-11-12", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Details 'Potential Mischief' Of Trump's Remaining Weeks In Office", "question_index": 15, "text": "Can you explain how the preemptive pardon works and why a president, including President Trump, could pardon somebody before they're even charged with a crime?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So one of the things to remember is that this is a moment in presidencies where even presidents who care about their historical legacy, care about respecting democratic norms normally take their"}
{"id": "934117807", "date": "2020-11-12", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Details 'Potential Mischief' Of Trump's Remaining Weeks In Office", "question_index": 16, "text": "So is this something that's built into the presidency? Or is this something that kind of evolved over the years, the idea of the preemptive pardon?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And this is where we actually turn back to the Nixon presidency, which is he had not actually been charged when Gerald Ford pardoned him. And Gerald Ford made the argument that it was important "}
{"id": "934117807", "date": "2020-11-12", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Details 'Potential Mischief' Of Trump's Remaining Weeks In Office", "question_index": 17, "text": "Getting back to the preemptive pardon. So the Constitution gives the president the right to pardon, but does it say anything about a preemptive pardon, pardoning somebody before they've even been accused of a crime?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So the presidential pardon is written into the Constitution. It is one of the most powerful and direct powers that the presidency has. And it's really one of the only places where presidential p"}
{"id": "934117807", "date": "2020-11-12", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Details 'Potential Mischief' Of Trump's Remaining Weeks In Office", "question_index": 18, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is journalist Garrett Graff. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Effectively what the pardon power allows is for you to be pardoned for offenses against the United States. And what that means is the way that a pardon actually legally plays out, you would be brought"}
{"id": "934117807", "date": "2020-11-12", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Details 'Potential Mischief' Of Trump's Remaining Weeks In Office", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with journalist Garrett Graff about his two latest articles in Politico Magazine. They're about norms President Trump may break in the days remaining in his presidency and what he may do after leaving the White House. Let's talk about some of the things Trump might do after leaving the White House. As you point out, he'll have a lot of debt to pay off. What's the estimate of how much debt he's going to have to pay off?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Effectively what the pardon power allows is for you to be pardoned for offenses against the United States. And what that means is the way that a pardon actually legally plays out, you would be brought"}
{"id": "934117807", "date": "2020-11-12", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Details 'Potential Mischief' Of Trump's Remaining Weeks In Office", "question_index": 20, "text": "Now, I wasn't aware of this, but ex-presidents get $200,000 annual pensions for the remainder of their lives and about a million dollars a year for travel and office expenses and also franking privileges. That means you can mail things without having to pay. I don't know if that includes Federal Express", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we know from the incredible work of The New York Times this fall reporting on his taxes that he faces about $420 million in debt that comes due over the next couple of years, as well as a lot of"}
{"id": "934117807", "date": "2020-11-12", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Details 'Potential Mischief' Of Trump's Remaining Weeks In Office", "question_index": 21, "text": "or just the USPS. This is an important question for franking. But - so what opportunities do you see to use money designed to help and to protect the president where he can take that money and channel it into his businesses?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we know from the incredible work of The New York Times this fall reporting on his taxes that he faces about $420 million in debt that comes due over the next couple of years, as well as a lot of"}
{"id": "934117807", "date": "2020-11-12", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Details 'Potential Mischief' Of Trump's Remaining Weeks In Office", "question_index": 22, "text": "And is it more profitable for Trump in terms of the income and his properties to move from property to property? Because the way that Mar-a-Lago was rezoned, he can't live there full time anymore, because it's - I think it's designated as a commercial property now. So he can't have full-time residence there. So is it more profitable if he moves from property to property?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the biggest opportunity he's going to have is the fact that he receives lifetime Secret Service protection. And what we have seen through his presidency is, you know, on the one hand, he brags abou"}
{"id": "934117807", "date": "2020-11-12", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Details 'Potential Mischief' Of Trump's Remaining Weeks In Office", "question_index": 23, "text": "So you're envisioning a possible, like, Trump theme park?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's certainly more profitable in the fact that the Secret Service will have to set up multiple protection systems at each of his properties as they move back-and-forth. And this is all, again, sort o"}
{"id": "934117807", "date": "2020-11-12", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Details 'Potential Mischief' Of Trump's Remaining Weeks In Office", "question_index": 24, "text": "And I think, you know, if you are Donald Trump and you are in the business of hospitality and you are the showman that Donald Trump is, you know, that is exactly the type of model that I would be trying to pursue, particularly if, as Donald Trump hints from time to time, he might actually be interested in continuing in politics and continuing potentially to run for election in 2024 if he loses and leaves office in January.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's certainly more profitable in the fact that the Secret Service will have to set up multiple protection systems at each of his properties as they move back-and-forth. And this is all, again, sort o"}
{"id": "934117807", "date": "2020-11-12", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Details 'Potential Mischief' Of Trump's Remaining Weeks In Office", "question_index": 25, "text": "So you're saying that there's a possibility - and this is just pure speculation - that Trump would create a kind of presidential library/theme park that I presume you'd have to charge admission for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's certainly more profitable in the fact that the Secret Service will have to set up multiple protection systems at each of his properties as they move back-and-forth. And this is all, again, sort o"}
{"id": "934117807", "date": "2020-11-12", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Details 'Potential Mischief' Of Trump's Remaining Weeks In Office", "question_index": 26, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is journalist Garrett Graff. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And it could serve as sort of the focal point of his presidential - post-presidential activities. It could sort of serve as a mecca for his fans and Republican acolytes to come and pay homage to "}
{"id": "934117807", "date": "2020-11-12", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Details 'Potential Mischief' Of Trump's Remaining Weeks In Office", "question_index": 27, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with journalist Garrett Graff about his two latest articles in Politico Magazine. They're about norms President Trump may break in the days remaining in his presidency and what he may do after leaving the White House. If Trump wants to remain a powerbroker after his presidency, what are some of the ways he can do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And it could serve as sort of the focal point of his presidential - post-presidential activities. It could sort of serve as a mecca for his fans and Republican acolytes to come and pay homage to "}
{"id": "934117807", "date": "2020-11-12", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Details 'Potential Mischief' Of Trump's Remaining Weeks In Office", "question_index": 28, "text": "So President Trump might remain a power broker after he leaves office. He might end up facing criminal charges. He might face insurmountable debt. He might exploit the system for his own good. He might, you know, make a lot of money on a Trump theme park", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one of the things, Terry, that is important to understand is just how thoroughly Donald Trump has remade the Republican Party in the four or five years that he has been its leader. You know, the"}
{"id": "934117807", "date": "2020-11-12", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Details 'Potential Mischief' Of Trump's Remaining Weeks In Office", "question_index": 29, "text": ". I mean, there's so many extremes that are possible in the next few years for him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one of the things, Terry, that is important to understand is just how thoroughly Donald Trump has remade the Republican Party in the four or five years that he has been its leader. You know, the"}
{"id": "934117807", "date": "2020-11-12", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Details 'Potential Mischief' Of Trump's Remaining Weeks In Office", "question_index": 30, "text": "Well, Garrett Graff, you've given us a lot to think about", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And one thing that I think is worth talking about that we haven't mentioned so far is the extent to which Donald Trump, in sort of his recklessness and his willingness to coddle authoritarian re"}
{"id": "934117807", "date": "2020-11-12", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Details 'Potential Mischief' Of Trump's Remaining Weeks In Office", "question_index": 31, "text": ". Thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And one thing that I think is worth talking about that we haven't mentioned so far is the extent to which Donald Trump, in sort of his recklessness and his willingness to coddle authoritarian re"}
{"id": "934117807", "date": "2020-11-12", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Details 'Potential Mischief' Of Trump's Remaining Weeks In Office", "question_index": 32, "text": "Garrett Graff's articles about what Trump might do in the remaining days of his presidency and what he might do after leaving the White House are published in Politico Magazine. If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed - like our interview with soccer star and LGBTQ activist Megan Rapinoe, who's written a new memoir; or with Harold McGee, who's famous for his books on the science of cooking and has a new book about why things smell the way they do and how that explains why foods taste the way they do - check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, it's always a pleasure."}
{"id": "934117807", "date": "2020-11-12", "guest": "Garrett Graff", "title": "Journalist Details 'Potential Mischief' Of Trump's Remaining Weeks In Office", "question_index": 33, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our senior producer today is Roberta Shorrock. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Kayla Lattimore. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Therese Madden directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, it's always a pleasure."}
{"id": "934528621", "date": "2020-11-14", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Pianist Keith Jarrett On The 'Calling' That Drew Him To Jazz", "question_index": 0, "text": "I thought I'd play \"Be My Love\" because I particularly like it when a composer takes a song that I didn't think of myself as liking very much and does something wonderful with it. And I just - I really love what you've done with this.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Kevin Whitehead is the author of the new book, \"Play The Way You Feel: The Essential Guide To Jazz Stories On Film.\" He reviewed \"Budapest Concert\" by Keith Jarrett. Now let's listen back to Terry's i"}
{"id": "934528621", "date": "2020-11-14", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Pianist Keith Jarrett On The 'Calling' That Drew Him To Jazz", "question_index": 1, "text": "Please.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, can I explain what was going on in my..."}
{"id": "934528621", "date": "2020-11-14", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Pianist Keith Jarrett On The 'Calling' That Drew Him To Jazz", "question_index": 2, "text": "Please.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Head while I was doing these songs?"}
{"id": "934528621", "date": "2020-11-14", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Pianist Keith Jarrett On The 'Calling' That Drew Him To Jazz", "question_index": 3, "text": "Well, the lyrics are by Sammy Cahn on this. Well, I love what you've done with it. This is Keith Jarrett at the piano, recorded last year, from his CD \"The Melody At Night, With You.\" And the song is \"Be My Love.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "simple sounding, but not so simple - turn on the tape recorder. Luckily, I had set mics up over a long period of time looking for the right spot, looking for the right mics, thinking a little bit ahea"}
{"id": "934528621", "date": "2020-11-14", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Pianist Keith Jarrett On The 'Calling' That Drew Him To Jazz", "question_index": 4, "text": "That's Keith Jarrett playing \"Be My Love\" from his recent CD \"The Melody At Night, With You.\" Getting back to \"Be My Love,\" this is a song really associated with Mario Lanza. Did you like his recording of it? Did you ever pay much attention to that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "simple sounding, but not so simple - turn on the tape recorder. Luckily, I had set mics up over a long period of time looking for the right spot, looking for the right mics, thinking a little bit ahea"}
{"id": "934528621", "date": "2020-11-14", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Pianist Keith Jarrett On The 'Calling' That Drew Him To Jazz", "question_index": 5, "text": "Yeah, me neither.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I know. I've heard it. I heard it when I was a kid. No, I never liked it at all, probably."}
{"id": "934528621", "date": "2020-11-14", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Pianist Keith Jarrett On The 'Calling' That Drew Him To Jazz", "question_index": 6, "text": "So what you did was change the action on the piano so that you could have a lighter touch and still have the piano resonate?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Now, there's so much to say about each song because of the way the piano - I had had my piano overhauled in a special action - a major change in the action. It gets technical if I try to describe it. "}
{"id": "934528621", "date": "2020-11-14", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Pianist Keith Jarrett On The 'Calling' That Drew Him To Jazz", "question_index": 7, "text": "Let me play another track from your new CD, \"Whisper Not.\" And this is \"Bouncin' With Bud.\" Tell me why you chose \"Bouncin' With Bud\" and what it's like for you to play this kind of bop tune after being so lacking in energy for so long?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's return to Terry's interview with Keith Jarrett. He has a new CD recorded in 2016 during his last European tour. He recently revealed that he had two strokes in 2018, which hav"}
{"id": "934528621", "date": "2020-11-14", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Pianist Keith Jarrett On The 'Calling' That Drew Him To Jazz", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, actually, one of the reasons bop came into the process so classically is that when I started rehearsing - we don't normally have rehearsals, the trio. In fact, we didn't have any rehearsals unti"}
{"id": "934528621", "date": "2020-11-14", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Pianist Keith Jarrett On The 'Calling' That Drew Him To Jazz", "question_index": 9, "text": "You were born in Allentown in 1945. Allentown's just a couple of hours north of Philadelphia. You started taking lessons, piano lessons, when you were 3, which, I think, is uncommonly early. Why did your parents get you a teacher at such a young age?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No matter how light I wanted to play, I wasn't playing lightly. But I was still getting the kind of thing I'm talking about."}
{"id": "934528621", "date": "2020-11-14", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Pianist Keith Jarrett On The 'Calling' That Drew Him To Jazz", "question_index": 10, "text": "How'd they discover that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they discovered I had perfect pitch. So..."}
{"id": "934528621", "date": "2020-11-14", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Pianist Keith Jarrett On The 'Calling' That Drew Him To Jazz", "question_index": 11, "text": "A lot of people barely have any memories from the time that they were 3 years old. Do you have many memories of those very early piano lessons?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "get him a teacher."}
{"id": "934528621", "date": "2020-11-14", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Pianist Keith Jarrett On The 'Calling' That Drew Him To Jazz", "question_index": 12, "text": "And you don't remember what you were first taught to play?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not really. I remember the gate at the top of my piano teacher's stairway so that, I guess, the little kid she taught wouldn't fall down the stairs. It's like - I think I remember that the piano was t"}
{"id": "934528621", "date": "2020-11-14", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Pianist Keith Jarrett On The 'Calling' That Drew Him To Jazz", "question_index": 13, "text": "Do you remember what you were praised or criticized for by that first teacher?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. We're listening back to Terry's interview recorded 20 years ago with Keith Jarrett, one of the most heralded jazz pianists alive. His new CD \"Bu"}
{"id": "934528621", "date": "2020-11-14", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Pianist Keith Jarrett On The 'Calling' That Drew Him To Jazz", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nope, nope. I don't. I really don't. The - my - I don't remember - I'm sure she was - I'm sure it was a woman, and that's about all I know."}
{"id": "934528621", "date": "2020-11-14", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Pianist Keith Jarrett On The 'Calling' That Drew Him To Jazz", "question_index": 15, "text": "As you got a little bit older in your preteen and teen years, did playing piano earn you the admiration or the mockery of friends? Friends can sometimes really mock you for being very serious about something.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "for a little kid to be learning. And I played the violin at the time. I started to play the violin, and I really liked that, too. And one day he said - I guess he had a - I think he was German, and he"}
{"id": "934528621", "date": "2020-11-14", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Pianist Keith Jarrett On The 'Calling' That Drew Him To Jazz", "question_index": 16, "text": "Whose idea was the timer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "934528621", "date": "2020-11-14", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Pianist Keith Jarrett On The 'Calling' That Drew Him To Jazz", "question_index": 17, "text": "Did you resent having to practice that much?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Probably my mother's 'cause she wasn't home, and so my grandmother was keeping this 2-1/2-hour practice schedule or whatever it was I had at the time."}
{"id": "934528621", "date": "2020-11-14", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Pianist Keith Jarrett On The 'Calling' That Drew Him To Jazz", "question_index": 18, "text": "You know, I think a lot of musicians who started off as prodigies go through a period where they're really confused about whether they're staying in music because they love music or whether they're staying in music 'cause it's what they've always done and it's what people have always expected them to do and it's what adults almost required them to do.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I did. And then I would say something - or I might say something about it, and my parents would say, well, you know, we don't have that much money; we'll sell the piano. And I would immediately "}
{"id": "934528621", "date": "2020-11-14", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Pianist Keith Jarrett On The 'Calling' That Drew Him To Jazz", "question_index": 19, "text": "And some former prodigies go through a period of rebelling against music and against the discipline that's been enforced all their lives. Did you go through a period like that ever?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "934528621", "date": "2020-11-14", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Pianist Keith Jarrett On The 'Calling' That Drew Him To Jazz", "question_index": 20, "text": "Your parents divorced when you were 11. Did that interfere with your ability to focus on music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "934528621", "date": "2020-11-14", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Pianist Keith Jarrett On The 'Calling' That Drew Him To Jazz", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I think the Woolworths (ph) that I got these records from probably made - the buyer made a mistake and bought a couple jazz albums they..."}
{"id": "934528621", "date": "2020-11-14", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Pianist Keith Jarrett On The 'Calling' That Drew Him To Jazz", "question_index": 22, "text": "You went to New York, scuffled there for a while.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Didn't intend to. And he lucked out, and actually, they were mostly people like Andre Previn. And then I heard Oscar Peterson. Then I heard - oh, I heard Brubeck live in Allentown. And I remember w"}
{"id": "934528621", "date": "2020-11-14", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Pianist Keith Jarrett On The 'Calling' That Drew Him To Jazz", "question_index": 23, "text": "Eventually started to get noticed. Then you started playing with Charles Lloyd and after that went with Miles Davis. Apparently, he invited you to join his band several times before you accepted. Why did you turn down Miles Davis?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "934528621", "date": "2020-11-14", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Pianist Keith Jarrett On The 'Calling' That Drew Him To Jazz", "question_index": 24, "text": "You played electric piano with Miles' band.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I said no to Miles because I had work for my trio, and I was in the middle of setting up tours with the trio. And I remember telling him that if there's a break in my schedule with the trio, that I wo"}
{"id": "934528621", "date": "2020-11-14", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Pianist Keith Jarrett On The 'Calling' That Drew Him To Jazz", "question_index": 25, "text": "Did you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, yeah."}
{"id": "934528621", "date": "2020-11-14", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Pianist Keith Jarrett On The 'Calling' That Drew Him To Jazz", "question_index": 26, "text": "Is that because he used it better or because you could put up with it because you were playing with Miles Davis?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "934528621", "date": "2020-11-14", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Pianist Keith Jarrett On The 'Calling' That Drew Him To Jazz", "question_index": 27, "text": "Well, you certainly pioneered the solo piano concert, which eventually really caught on and spread to other instruments as well. What was it like in the early days, being alone out there on the stage and improvising on your own?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I heard that band - the previous band, before it went totally electric - before it went more electric, with Tony Williams and Wayne and Herbie - Wayne Shorter, Herbie Hancock. And maybe Dave Holland, "}
{"id": "934528621", "date": "2020-11-14", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Pianist Keith Jarrett On The 'Calling' That Drew Him To Jazz", "question_index": 28, "text": "Right, right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "934528621", "date": "2020-11-14", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Pianist Keith Jarrett On The 'Calling' That Drew Him To Jazz", "question_index": 29, "text": "In the '70s, I think a lot of your fans debated with each other whether you were Black or white", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it was sort of - I wish I could think of a word. But it was sort of like having a seance with the audience. So it wasn't all that lonely in the midst of it. But as a rule, the mechanism of doing it"}
{"id": "934528621", "date": "2020-11-14", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Pianist Keith Jarrett On The 'Calling' That Drew Him To Jazz", "question_index": 30, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it was sort of - I wish I could think of a word. But it was sort of like having a seance with the audience. So it wasn't all that lonely in the midst of it. But as a rule, the mechanism of doing it"}
{"id": "934528621", "date": "2020-11-14", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Pianist Keith Jarrett On The 'Calling' That Drew Him To Jazz", "question_index": 31, "text": "Do you think that a lot of people assumed you were African American because your hair was really curly and look like an afro?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And I thought, OK, well, this is going to be just a political problem for me. It isn't the music; it's just the politics."}
{"id": "934528621", "date": "2020-11-14", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Pianist Keith Jarrett On The 'Calling' That Drew Him To Jazz", "question_index": 32, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And a friend of my ex-wife's was arguing with me and her that I had to be Black no matter what I said."}
{"id": "934528621", "date": "2020-11-14", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Pianist Keith Jarrett On The 'Calling' That Drew Him To Jazz", "question_index": 33, "text": "This is Ornette Coleman?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And once Ornette backstage said something..."}
{"id": "934528621", "date": "2020-11-14", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Pianist Keith Jarrett On The 'Calling' That Drew Him To Jazz", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". You just have to be Black."}
{"id": "934528621", "date": "2020-11-14", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Pianist Keith Jarrett On The 'Calling' That Drew Him To Jazz", "question_index": 35, "text": "Do you think that that worked in your favor?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I said, I know, I know. I'm working on it."}
{"id": "934528621", "date": "2020-11-14", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Pianist Keith Jarrett On The 'Calling' That Drew Him To Jazz", "question_index": 36, "text": "Well, Keith Jarrett, thank you so much for spending some time with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it didn't hurt, you know? I don't think it hurt to be - when I get that kind of feedback from the actual players who I felt were partly my inspirations, who happen to be Black, yeah. I mean, it'"}
{"id": "936164085", "date": "2020-11-18", "guest": "Jon Wiener", "title": "Author Says The Chicago 7 Trial Reflected 'All The Conflicts In America'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Jon Wiener, hopes that President Trump does not watch Aaron Sorkin's new film, \"The Trial Of The Chicago 7.\" Wiener wrote in an article published last month in The Nation that he feared Trump would take away the wrong message and tell his attorney general, William Barr, to do with the leaders of today's protest movements, like Black Lives Matter, what Nixon did to the Chicago Seven and put them on trial for conspiracy to cross state lines and incite riot. Wiener is the author of a book about the Chicago Seven trial that includes a very abridged version of the trial transcript. The book, \"Conspiracy In The Streets,\" was first published in 2006. It was reprinted to coincide with Aaron Sorkin's film, which is now streaming on Netflix. The Chicago Seven, originally the Chicago Eight, were leaders of the movement against the war in Vietnam. In August of 1968, they organized protests that drew thousands of people from around the country to Chicago to coincide with the Democratic National Convention that was being held there. This was the convention that nominated Hubert Humphrey, who lost to Richard Nixon. The protesters were met with thousands of police, National Guardsmen and soldiers, resulting in battles that were broadcast on national TV, shocking Americans who watched as young people were clubbed and tear gassed. Eight months later, early in Nixon's presidency, eight leaders of the political and cultural left, including Bobby Seale, a co-founder of the Black Panthers, were charged with conspiracy to incite riot. Seale, who was chained and gagged in the courtroom during part of the trial, was later severed from the trial and was not retried for the Chicago charges. Wiener writes, at the end of the '60s, it seemed that all the conflicts in America were distilled and then acted out in the courtroom of the trial. Wiener is also the author of the book \"Set The Night On Fire,\" about the protest movements in 1960s LA, and he wrote an earlier book about John Lennon's FBI files. John Wiener, welcome back to FRESH AIR. The antiwar protests that we're talking about were staged to coincide with the Democratic National Convention. Why were they protesting at the convention site in Chicago?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "936164085", "date": "2020-11-18", "guest": "Jon Wiener", "title": "Author Says The Chicago 7 Trial Reflected 'All The Conflicts In America'", "question_index": 1, "text": "How did it turn into a riot? What happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the war in Vietnam had been, basically, a war started and escalated by Democratic presidents, especially Lyndon Johnson. Lyndon Johnson had to withdraw from his own reelection campaign, somethin"}
{"id": "936164085", "date": "2020-11-18", "guest": "Jon Wiener", "title": "Author Says The Chicago 7 Trial Reflected 'All The Conflicts In America'", "question_index": 2, "text": "And you write that four months before these protests, Mayor Daley issued orders to Chicago police to shoot to kill arsonists and shoot to maim or cripple looters in Black neighborhoods.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this is - the subject of the trial raised this issue repeatedly. There's, of course, two views of how this happened. The Nixon Justice Department's view was that leaders of the protest movement "}
{"id": "936164085", "date": "2020-11-18", "guest": "Jon Wiener", "title": "Author Says The Chicago 7 Trial Reflected 'All The Conflicts In America'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Well, if there were 12,000 police, 6,000 soldiers and 5,000 National Guardsmen, that means there were at least as many of them as there were of protesters. Is that right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Daley was determined to stop street protests in Chicago by any means necessary, I think you could say. And I think that's one reason why, instead of hundreds of thousands of people coming, only "}
{"id": "936164085", "date": "2020-11-18", "guest": "Jon Wiener", "title": "Author Says The Chicago 7 Trial Reflected 'All The Conflicts In America'", "question_index": 4, "text": "So the city issued a curfew at 11 o'clock during the nights of the protest. And when the protesters didn't leave, that, I think, is when the police attacked them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think that the Army, the regular Army soldiers were never sent into the streets. It was the National Guard and the Chicago police, so I think it was pretty close to 50-50."}
{"id": "936164085", "date": "2020-11-18", "guest": "Jon Wiener", "title": "Author Says The Chicago 7 Trial Reflected 'All The Conflicts In America'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Many of the protesters were injured. I think hundreds were hospitalized.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. We need to make it clear here there were two very different protests that were organized. One was the kind of traditional protest march that wanted to go to the convention site and to call on the"}
{"id": "936164085", "date": "2020-11-18", "guest": "Jon Wiener", "title": "Author Says The Chicago 7 Trial Reflected 'All The Conflicts In America'", "question_index": 6, "text": "So you have these two really different groups standing trial together. You have the Yippies, represented by Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin, and you've got leaders from the National Mobilization to End the War in Vietnam, which is represented by, you know, Dave Dellinger and Tom Hayden, Rennie Davis. As you said, there were two separate protests. One was, you know, a march to where the convention was being held, and the other was this, like, Festival of Life in the park. Did the Yippies and the leaders of the mobilization talk to each other and try to coordinate their ends of this protest? Or were these, like, two independent things?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, including Rennie Davis, who was very - got a concussion, covered with blood, hospitalized. It was bad."}
{"id": "936164085", "date": "2020-11-18", "guest": "Jon Wiener", "title": "Author Says The Chicago 7 Trial Reflected 'All The Conflicts In America'", "question_index": 7, "text": "The defendants in the trial come from the cultural left and the political left. And there's a lot of divisions between them in terms of their tactics, their philosophy, their strategy. And you could see that in how they tried to use the trial to make their larger points about the war and about what was going wrong with America. Can you talk about their different strategies at the trial?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, they were inevitably thrown together. They applied separately for permits. But once they got to Chicago, the police didn't really distinguish between them. And a lot of the people who came f"}
{"id": "936164085", "date": "2020-11-18", "guest": "Jon Wiener", "title": "Author Says The Chicago 7 Trial Reflected 'All The Conflicts In America'", "question_index": 8, "text": "How did the political left - how did, like, Tom Hayden and Rennie Davis react to the more prankish approach of the Yippies, Abbie Hoffman and Jerry Rubin?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Both groups wanted to use the trial to present the case to the American people that - they wanted to put the government on trial for the war in Vietnam. That they agreed on. How to do that was w"}
{"id": "936164085", "date": "2020-11-18", "guest": "Jon Wiener", "title": "Author Says The Chicago 7 Trial Reflected 'All The Conflicts In America'", "question_index": 9, "text": "So let me introduce you here, Jon. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jon Wiener. His book \"Conspiracy In The Streets: The Extraordinary Trial Of The Chicago Seven\" was first published in 2006. It was reprinted to coincide with Aaron Sorkin's new film about the trial, which is now streaming on Netflix. We'll talk more after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Tom, afterwards, he was kind of contemptuous of Abbie and Jerry. He thought they were not good organizers, was his view. He thought they were - you know, they were masters of television. Everybo"}
{"id": "936164085", "date": "2020-11-18", "guest": "Jon Wiener", "title": "Author Says The Chicago 7 Trial Reflected 'All The Conflicts In America'", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH Air. Let's get back to my interview with Jon Wiener, whose books include \"Conspiracy In The Streets: The Extraordinary Trial of the Chicago Seven.\" And if you want to see a theatrical film based on the trial, there's one streaming on Netflix that was written by Aaron Sorkin. So the protests we've been talking about take place in Chicago in 1968, coinciding with the Democratic National Convention because the protesters are demonstrating against the Democrats, who have been leading the war in Vietnam, you know, Democratic presidents. So by the time the trial takes place, Nixon is president. Did Nixon have a role in the Chicago 7 trial?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Tom, afterwards, he was kind of contemptuous of Abbie and Jerry. He thought they were not good organizers, was his view. He thought they were - you know, they were masters of television. Everybo"}
{"id": "936164085", "date": "2020-11-18", "guest": "Jon Wiener", "title": "Author Says The Chicago 7 Trial Reflected 'All The Conflicts In America'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Judge Julius Hoffman, as you point out in your book, he seemed to represent everything that was unjust and oppressive about the status quo at the time. He was 74 at the time of the trial. He had graduated from law school in 1915, which was very far away from the cultural values of 1968. And he did things that were just, really, remarkable by any standard, including having Bobby Seale, when he was still a defendant in the trial - Bobby Seale was one of the founders of the Black Panthers. Hoffman had him bound and gagged. And Seale's lawyer had been hospitalized. So Seale didn't have representation. He wanted to represent himself. Hoffman refused to allow him to do that. And when Seale kept protesting, that's when Hoffman had him bound and gagged. How are you allowed to do that in an American courtroom? How was Hoffman allowed to do that? Wasn't there anybody who could say, you don't do that in America, anybody who could stop that kind of thing from happening?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was part of - Nixon's campaign theme had been law and order and to be the voice of the - what he called the silent majority, by which he referred to white conservatives who were opposed to th"}
{"id": "936164085", "date": "2020-11-18", "guest": "Jon Wiener", "title": "Author Says The Chicago 7 Trial Reflected 'All The Conflicts In America'", "question_index": 12, "text": "What was Bobby Seale doing as a defendant in the first place?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I'm - I had never heard of it happening before either. And I'm kind of amazed that the prosecution didn't tell the judge not to do this. I mean, it was a completely horrifying spectacle, thr"}
{"id": "936164085", "date": "2020-11-18", "guest": "Jon Wiener", "title": "Author Says The Chicago 7 Trial Reflected 'All The Conflicts In America'", "question_index": 13, "text": "It didn't work out the way they expected, did it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He really shouldn't have been there. He had not been any part of these demonstrations. The Panthers were not planning to - didn't demonstrate, didn't call on their members to demonstrate at the Chicag"}
{"id": "936164085", "date": "2020-11-18", "guest": "Jon Wiener", "title": "Author Says The Chicago 7 Trial Reflected 'All The Conflicts In America'", "question_index": 14, "text": "It's his constitutional right. Like, I don't understand how...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "partly it was, as you say, it was because of Judge Julius Hoffman did this most unexpected thing. He should've allowed Bobby Seale to have an attorney. I mean, that's kind of basic, you know, American"}
{"id": "936164085", "date": "2020-11-18", "guest": "Jon Wiener", "title": "Author Says The Chicago 7 Trial Reflected 'All The Conflicts In America'", "question_index": 15, "text": "...This is allowed to happen. Yeah", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "constitutional right."}
{"id": "936164085", "date": "2020-11-18", "guest": "Jon Wiener", "title": "Author Says The Chicago 7 Trial Reflected 'All The Conflicts In America'", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "constitutional right."}
{"id": "936164085", "date": "2020-11-18", "guest": "Jon Wiener", "title": "Author Says The Chicago 7 Trial Reflected 'All The Conflicts In America'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jon Wiener. His book \"Conspiracy In The Streets: The Extraordinary Trial Of The Chicago Seven\" has been reprinted to coincide with Aaron Sorkin's film, which is now streaming on Netflix. And that film is called \"The Trial Of The Chicago 7.\" We'll talk more after a break. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You make a good point. It was his constitutional right. And that's what he kept claiming, asserting. Hoffman, in some way - you know, when you read the transcript now, you just can't believe a judge w"}
{"id": "936164085", "date": "2020-11-18", "guest": "Jon Wiener", "title": "Author Says The Chicago 7 Trial Reflected 'All The Conflicts In America'", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Jon Wiener. His book \"Conspiracy In The Streets: The Extraordinary Trial Of The Chicago Seven\" was first published in 2006. It's been reprinted to coincide with Aaron Sorkin's film about the trial of the Chicago Seven, which is now streaming on Netflix. The defendants in the trial were leaders from the political and the cultural left who opposed the war in Vietnam and organized protests in 1968 in Chicago, where the Democratic National Convention was being held. They were met with thousands of police, National Guardsmen and soldiers, leading to battles in which young people were tear gassed and beaten. The defendants were charged with crossing state lines and conspiring to start a riot. The seven were initially eight, but Bobby Seale, a founder of the Black Panthers, was removed from that trial and was never retried on those Chicago charges. So we've been talking about Judge Julius Hoffman. What are some of the things that he did, some of the other things he did, that were so norm-breaking for a judge?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) If I'd have listened to my second mind - yes, if I had listened to my second mind, you know I wouldn't be here now, people, down on the killing floor."}
{"id": "936164085", "date": "2020-11-18", "guest": "Jon Wiener", "title": "Author Says The Chicago 7 Trial Reflected 'All The Conflicts In America'", "question_index": 19, "text": "So while the trial was going on, Fred Hampton, who was a leader of the Chicago Black Panthers and was acting kind of as a liaison between Bobby Seale and the rest of the defense, Fred Hampton was killed by police in a raid on his home. What do we know about what happened in the death of Fred Hampton? And what impact did that have on the trial?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he, some ways - aside from having a Black man chained and gagged in the courtroom, I'd say the second most outrageous thing he did was not allowing the former attorney general, Ramsey Clark, to "}
{"id": "936164085", "date": "2020-11-18", "guest": "Jon Wiener", "title": "Author Says The Chicago 7 Trial Reflected 'All The Conflicts In America'", "question_index": 20, "text": "So how did the Chicago Seven trial end?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Fred Hampton was a very appealing and, some would say, charismatic young guy, one of the most promising and young leaders of the Panthers. Really, everybody liked him a lot. The police said that there"}
{"id": "936164085", "date": "2020-11-18", "guest": "Jon Wiener", "title": "Author Says The Chicago 7 Trial Reflected 'All The Conflicts In America'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Did they have to serve any time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "a little misleading. The film has a happy ending, with Tom Hayden defying the judge while everybody cheers. That's the way Aaron Sorkin likes his films to end. But in real life, the trial ended with g"}
{"id": "936164085", "date": "2020-11-18", "guest": "Jon Wiener", "title": "Author Says The Chicago 7 Trial Reflected 'All The Conflicts In America'", "question_index": 22, "text": "What parallels do you see between the Chicago Seven and the protests of today and how the police have handled those protests?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They - I believe they served overnight their - the judge also revoked their bail. Now, the only grounds for revoking bail in America is risk of flight. These guys were not going to flee. These guys we"}
{"id": "936164085", "date": "2020-11-18", "guest": "Jon Wiener", "title": "Author Says The Chicago 7 Trial Reflected 'All The Conflicts In America'", "question_index": 23, "text": "John Wiener, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, today's - the biggest difference is that today's protests have been a hundred times bigger. It wasn't just in one city that people took to the streets and, in many places, were attacked by the p"}
{"id": "936164085", "date": "2020-11-18", "guest": "Jon Wiener", "title": "Author Says The Chicago 7 Trial Reflected 'All The Conflicts In America'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Jon Wiener is the author of the book \"Conspiracy In The Streets: The Extraordinary Trial Of The Chicago Seven.\" It's been reprinted to coincide with the Aaron Sorkin film \"The Trial Of The Chicago 7.\" After we take a short break, we'll hear from British writer Anthony Horowitz, author of the Alex Rider teenage spy young adult novels, as well as mystery novels for adults. His Alex Rider series has just been adapted into an Amazon TV series. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was my pleasure."}
{"id": "937009453", "date": "2020-11-20", "guest": "Stephen Kinzer", "title": "The CIA's Secret Quest For Mind Control: Torture, LSD And A 'Poisoner In Chief'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Stephen Kinzer, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Let's start with, what was the mission of MKUltra?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. You may have heard stories about the CIA's secret experiments with LSD, through which '60s counterculture luminaries like Ken Kesey and Allen Gi"}
{"id": "937009453", "date": "2020-11-20", "guest": "Stephen Kinzer", "title": "The CIA's Secret Quest For Mind Control: Torture, LSD And A 'Poisoner In Chief'", "question_index": 1, "text": "So LSD was created in 1943 by Dr. Albert Hoffman at the Sandoz Laboratories in Basel, Switzerland. How did the CIA find out about LSD?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "During the early period of the Cold War, in the late '40s and early 1950s, the CIA became paralyzed with a fear that communists had perfected some kind of a drug or a potion or a technique that would "}
{"id": "937009453", "date": "2020-11-20", "guest": "Stephen Kinzer", "title": "The CIA's Secret Quest For Mind Control: Torture, LSD And A 'Poisoner In Chief'", "question_index": 2, "text": "Even Timothy Leary, who turned a lot of people onto LSD and helped guide them through trips, he found out about LSD because of Sidney Gottlieb. He wasn't part of one of the experiments, but what's the connection?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As part of the search for drugs that would allow people to control the human mind, CIA scientists became aware of the existence of LSD, and this became an obsession for the early directors of MKUltra."}
{"id": "937009453", "date": "2020-11-20", "guest": "Stephen Kinzer", "title": "The CIA's Secret Quest For Mind Control: Torture, LSD And A 'Poisoner In Chief'", "question_index": 3, "text": "So just so I understand this correctly - so the CIA basically set up phony philanthropic foundations which then funded university and college research, and it's through those research experiments that people like Ginsberg and Kesey and Robert Hunter got introduced to LSD. And the university researchers had no idea that their research was actually being funded by the CIA.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're absolutely right. Tim Leary, who became the great guru of LSD, first came across psychedelics through Sidney Gottlieb, although like all these other people, he had never heard Gottlieb's name b"}
{"id": "937009453", "date": "2020-11-20", "guest": "Stephen Kinzer", "title": "The CIA's Secret Quest For Mind Control: Torture, LSD And A 'Poisoner In Chief'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Now, there's a much darker side to this program because a lot of people who were being experimented on, they were prisoners. I mean, they had no idea what they were being given. One of those prisoners was the famous gangster Whitey Bulger, who was serving time then for hijacking a truck, and he was in the Atlanta Penitentiary. So he actually wrote something describing his experience. Can you give us a summary of what he said?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that's largely correct. So Stanford University was running a program in which they asked for volunteers to come in and try this new substance. Allen Ginsberg was one of the volunteers; so was "}
{"id": "937009453", "date": "2020-11-20", "guest": "Stephen Kinzer", "title": "The CIA's Secret Quest For Mind Control: Torture, LSD And A 'Poisoner In Chief'", "question_index": 5, "text": "And he worked with some pretty high-class torturers, too, from one of the Nazi doctors and the chief poisoner from Japan during World War II. How did they end up in his program?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Whitey Bulger was one of the prisoners who volunteered for what he was told was an experiment aimed at finding a cure for schizophrenia. As part of this experiment, he was given LSD every day for more"}
{"id": "937009453", "date": "2020-11-20", "guest": "Stephen Kinzer", "title": "The CIA's Secret Quest For Mind Control: Torture, LSD And A 'Poisoner In Chief'", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yeah, I found that pretty hard to understand. But, you know, also, Kurt Blome, one of the Nazi doctors who was hired by Sidney Gottlieb, was on trial in Nuremberg. He was acquitted, but he was one of the Nazi doctors who was tried. And the Nuremberg Code established that if you are conducting experiments, that the person you are experimenting on needs to give informed consent. And of course, MKUltra totally violated the Nuremberg Code, but apparently the U.S. never signed on to that, never adapted that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One of the most remarkable discoveries that I made in the research for this book is that the CIA mind control project, MKUltra, was essentially a continuation of work that began in Japanese and Nazi c"}
{"id": "937009453", "date": "2020-11-20", "guest": "Stephen Kinzer", "title": "The CIA's Secret Quest For Mind Control: Torture, LSD And A 'Poisoner In Chief'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Stephen Kinzer. His new book is called \"Poisoner In Chief: Sidney Gottlieb And The CIA Search For Mind Control.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If the United States had used the Nuremberg Code domestically, Sidney Gottlieb would never have been able to do what he did; there couldn't have been MKUltra. What Sidney Gottlieb did is exactly what "}
{"id": "937009453", "date": "2020-11-20", "guest": "Stephen Kinzer", "title": "The CIA's Secret Quest For Mind Control: Torture, LSD And A 'Poisoner In Chief'", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Stephen Kinzer. We're talking about his new book, \"Poisoner In Chief: Sidney Gottlieb And The CIA Search For Mind Control.\" Gottlieb created the MKUltra program, which experimented with psychoactive drugs like LSD to see what the effects were, with the goal of learning if LSD could be weaponized as a form of mind control. It wasn't just a question of administering these super-high doses of LSD for very extended periods of time. There was also, like, questioning and other kind of testing that went along with the administration of these high doses. Tell us about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If the United States had used the Nuremberg Code domestically, Sidney Gottlieb would never have been able to do what he did; there couldn't have been MKUltra. What Sidney Gottlieb did is exactly what "}
{"id": "937009453", "date": "2020-11-20", "guest": "Stephen Kinzer", "title": "The CIA's Secret Quest For Mind Control: Torture, LSD And A 'Poisoner In Chief'", "question_index": 9, "text": "And were there any guidelines in effect in the U.S. that would have made it illegal had people known what he was doing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Gottlieb and the CIA established secret detention centers throughout Europe and East Asia, particularly in Japan, Germany and the Philippines, which were largely under American control in the period o"}
{"id": "937009453", "date": "2020-11-20", "guest": "Stephen Kinzer", "title": "The CIA's Secret Quest For Mind Control: Torture, LSD And A 'Poisoner In Chief'", "question_index": 10, "text": "So before Sidney Gottlieb started experimenting with LSD, he ran CIA experiments with marijuana, cocaine, heroin, mescaline. I guess those didn't work as mind control drugs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is one of the most remarkable aspects of the Gottlieb story. He operated almost completely without supervision. He had sort of a check off from his titular boss and from his real boss, Richard He"}
{"id": "937009453", "date": "2020-11-20", "guest": "Stephen Kinzer", "title": "The CIA's Secret Quest For Mind Control: Torture, LSD And A 'Poisoner In Chief'", "question_index": 11, "text": "You know, one of the uses Gottlieb envisioned for LSD was - you could slip it to an unfriendly world leader, and their behavior would be so erratic and weird that they'd lose popularity or they'd be thrown out of office because they would appear to not be able to function normally anymore.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. Let's get back to Terry's interview with Stephen Kinzer about his book, \"Poisoner In Chief: Sidney Gottlieb And The CIA Search For Mind Control."}
{"id": "937009453", "date": "2020-11-20", "guest": "Stephen Kinzer", "title": "The CIA's Secret Quest For Mind Control: Torture, LSD And A 'Poisoner In Chief'", "question_index": 12, "text": "So this is just a little sidebar that I found very interesting as somebody who listens to a lot of jazz. The people who Sidney Gottlieb hired included George Hunter White, who directed a lot of the MKUltra experiments, and he had been a narcotics agent and led the Narcotics Bureau's campaign against jazz in New York City. He spied on musicians and entrapped them, including Billie Holiday, and Billie Holiday being busted was a turning point in her career because she couldn't get a cabaret license. There were places she couldn't perform in. It was a really tragic thing for her, and that's this guy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're right. So Gottlieb was the chief CIA chemist. In that capacity, he was also the chief poison maker, so he made the poisons to kill Zhou Enlai, Fidel Castro, Patrice Lumumba. But he wasn't only "}
{"id": "937009453", "date": "2020-11-20", "guest": "Stephen Kinzer", "title": "The CIA's Secret Quest For Mind Control: Torture, LSD And A 'Poisoner In Chief'", "question_index": 13, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "George Hunter White was one of the key operatives of MKUltra, and he stands out even in this extremely bizarre MKUltra cast of Nazi doctors and torturers and obsessed chemists. So George Hunter White,"}
{"id": "937009453", "date": "2020-11-20", "guest": "Stephen Kinzer", "title": "The CIA's Secret Quest For Mind Control: Torture, LSD And A 'Poisoner In Chief'", "question_index": 14, "text": "When the men were having sex with prostitutes and were unknowingly given doses of LSD, weren't they then asked questions to see what their answers would be like under LSD?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In the early 1950s, Gottlieb hired this guy, George Hunter White, to run a safe house for him in New York City to which people would be lured off the street and then given LSD so CIA officers could wa"}
{"id": "937009453", "date": "2020-11-20", "guest": "Stephen Kinzer", "title": "The CIA's Secret Quest For Mind Control: Torture, LSD And A 'Poisoner In Chief'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well, there's plenty more to talk about, but we have to take a short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Stephen Kinzer. His new book is called \"Poisoner In Chief: Sidney Gottlieb And The CIA Search For Mind Control.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. So White and the people who worked with him would prep these prostitutes, and they would say, we want to find out under what circumstances - under what combination of sex and drugs men would "}
{"id": "937009453", "date": "2020-11-20", "guest": "Stephen Kinzer", "title": "The CIA's Secret Quest For Mind Control: Torture, LSD And A 'Poisoner In Chief'", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Stephen Kinzer. His new book is called \"Poisoner In Chief: Sidney Gottlieb and the CIA Search For Mind Control.\" Gottlieb created the MKUltra program which experimented with psychoactive drugs like LSD to see what the effects were, with the goal of learning if LSD could be weaponized as a form of mind control. So Sidney Gottlieb's MKUltra program was ended in the early 1960s. Why was it ended?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. So White and the people who worked with him would prep these prostitutes, and they would say, we want to find out under what circumstances - under what combination of sex and drugs men would "}
{"id": "937009453", "date": "2020-11-20", "guest": "Stephen Kinzer", "title": "The CIA's Secret Quest For Mind Control: Torture, LSD And A 'Poisoner In Chief'", "question_index": 17, "text": "So what did he do after the MKUltra program was ended? Because he stayed in the CIA.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "After all the experiments that led to deaths in unknown numbers around Europe and Asia and led to unknown torments across the United States, Gottlieb, who was, in the end, a scientist, was forced to r"}
{"id": "937009453", "date": "2020-11-20", "guest": "Stephen Kinzer", "title": "The CIA's Secret Quest For Mind Control: Torture, LSD And A 'Poisoner In Chief'", "question_index": 18, "text": "You describe him as the poisoner in chief, and that's not just about the LSD experiments. He actually created and found ways to administer poison. Describe that part of his job.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Gottlieb had a long career after MKUltra ended, and he went on to become the head of the Technical Services staff, which is the - part of the CIA where they make the tools, the gizmos, the gadgets tha"}
{"id": "937009453", "date": "2020-11-20", "guest": "Stephen Kinzer", "title": "The CIA's Secret Quest For Mind Control: Torture, LSD And A 'Poisoner In Chief'", "question_index": 19, "text": "Among the very, very bizarre things about Sidney Gottlieb is after leaving the CIA, he pursued a spiritual life. He and his wife go to India. They tried to work with the poor. They're working with people who have leprosy. It is so hard to reconcile the different parts of Sydney Gottlieb's personality - an Orthodox Jew who works with Nazi doctors on the CIA drug experiments, somebody who has, like, ruined lives, who's created poisons and done these, like, really horrible experiments on people but feels like he himself is a very spiritual person.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As the chief CIA chemist, it was logical that Gottlieb be consulted whenever the CIA needed a poison or a toxin. And this became part of his work during the late 1950s and into 1960. In the mid-'50s, "}
{"id": "937009453", "date": "2020-11-20", "guest": "Stephen Kinzer", "title": "The CIA's Secret Quest For Mind Control: Torture, LSD And A 'Poisoner In Chief'", "question_index": 20, "text": "So Sidney Gottlieb worked in secrecy. That secrecy was partially shattered by the Church Committee, a committee - it was a Senate committee from the 1970s that was chaired by Democratic Senator Frank Church. And it was tasked with investigating abuses committed by intelligence agencies, and Gottlieb was called to testify. So how much did the committee find out about what Gottlieb had really done?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is one of the things that makes the Gottlieb story so fascinating. So Gottlieb really lived a Jekyll-and-Hyde life. We already talked about the things that he was doing in his day job, but what w"}
{"id": "937009453", "date": "2020-11-20", "guest": "Stephen Kinzer", "title": "The CIA's Secret Quest For Mind Control: Torture, LSD And A 'Poisoner In Chief'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Gottlieb tried to destroy evidence of programs that he headed. What did he do to try to destroy the evidence of MKUltra?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Gottlieb was living in India, working in a hospital for leprosy victims when he got a note from the CIA saying, somebody has figured out who you are, and that somebody is the Church Committee that's i"}
{"id": "937009453", "date": "2020-11-20", "guest": "Stephen Kinzer", "title": "The CIA's Secret Quest For Mind Control: Torture, LSD And A 'Poisoner In Chief'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Well, Stephen Kinzer, thank you for this book. I found the revelations in it really remarkable. Thank you for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The end of Gottlieb's career came in 1972 when his patron Richard Helms, who was then director of the CIA, was removed by Nixon. Once Helms was gone, it was just a matter of time until Gottlieb would "}
{"id": "937009453", "date": "2020-11-20", "guest": "Stephen Kinzer", "title": "The CIA's Secret Quest For Mind Control: Torture, LSD And A 'Poisoner In Chief'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Stephen Kinzer's book, \"Poisoner In Chief: Sidney Gottlieb And The CIA Search For Mind Control,\" is now out in paperback. Coming up, Justin Chang will review Steve McQueen's new five-film series, \"Small Axe.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "938890222", "date": "2020-11-25", "guest": "Jan Morris", "title": "Remembering Travel Writer And Memoirist Jan Morris", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're going to remember travel writer, memoirist and historian Jan Morris. She died Friday in her home country of Wales at the age of 94. Until 1972, she was known as James Morris. She changed her name to Jan at the age of 46 after transitioning to female and having gender confirmation surgery. Two years later, in 1974, she wrote about gender in her memoir \"Conundrum.\" She wrote, (reading) I spent half my life traveling in foreign places. I have only lately come to see that incessant wandering as an outer expression of my inner journey. When I spoke with her in 1989, she'd just published a book called \"Pleasures Of A Tangled Life.\" In the prologue, she wrote that there was a time when, new to womanhood, she tried to forget that she'd ever lived as a man. But it had grown on her over the years that this was not only intellectually dishonest, but rather dull. \"Pleasures Of A Tangled Life\" focused on the pleasures that had sustained her over the years. One of those pleasures was androgyny. I asked her to explain.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "938890222", "date": "2020-11-25", "guest": "Jan Morris", "title": "Remembering Travel Writer And Memoirist Jan Morris", "question_index": 1, "text": "When you were still writing as James Morris, you were best known for being the reporter who climbed Mount Everest with Edmund Hillary. You were there with Edmund Hillary when he scaled to the top, and you were the first person to report it to the press. What was the experience like when you got to the top there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- why I said that was that, in my experience, if you share both the emotions of both sexes, neither sex is frightened of you. Both sexes are willing to confide in you. Nobody thinks you're a threat. A"}
{"id": "938890222", "date": "2020-11-25", "guest": "Jan Morris", "title": "Remembering Travel Writer And Memoirist Jan Morris", "question_index": 2, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When you say sort of famous, you got it right."}
{"id": "938890222", "date": "2020-11-25", "guest": "Jan Morris", "title": "Remembering Travel Writer And Memoirist Jan Morris", "question_index": 3, "text": "You've traveled and written about travel for much of your life, and you think you write in a different style than many American travel writers do.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "938890222", "date": "2020-11-25", "guest": "Jan Morris", "title": "Remembering Travel Writer And Memoirist Jan Morris", "question_index": 4, "text": "Yeah, well, you write that you had to learn to see Africa in noncolonial terms. What were some of the things you were up against because of your own upbringing that you felt you had to unlearn when traveling?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I do, and I think there are historical reasons for it, as a matter of fact."}
{"id": "938890222", "date": "2020-11-25", "guest": "Jan Morris", "title": "Remembering Travel Writer And Memoirist Jan Morris", "question_index": 5, "text": "I think it was at the end of \"Conundrum\" you wrote, I have lived the life of a man. I live now the life of a woman. One day, perhaps, I shall transcend both. Are you still interested in transcending both? And what do you mean by that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Certainly, I think, the imperial aspect of it because people of my age - I'm 63 this year. People of my age were brought up in Britain to think of the world as ours, really. And added to that is the o"}
{"id": "938890222", "date": "2020-11-25", "guest": "Jan Morris", "title": "Remembering Travel Writer And Memoirist Jan Morris", "question_index": 6, "text": "Did you say happy or unhappy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's conceivable that I have transcended both, as a matter of fact. I feel myself to be part of each, both. And that seems to me a not unhappy situation."}
{"id": "938890222", "date": "2020-11-25", "guest": "Jan Morris", "title": "Remembering Travel Writer And Memoirist Jan Morris", "question_index": 7, "text": "Why would you prefer transcending both sexes rather than being part of one?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I rather like these double negatives."}
{"id": "938890222", "date": "2020-11-25", "guest": "Jan Morris", "title": "Remembering Travel Writer And Memoirist Jan Morris", "question_index": 8, "text": "OK, well, I thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because as I said before, it seems to me the purpose of my life, anyway, is a quest for unity and a reconciliation. And that's a beginning, isn't it?"}
{"id": "938890222", "date": "2020-11-25", "guest": "Jan Morris", "title": "Remembering Travel Writer And Memoirist Jan Morris", "question_index": 9, "text": "My interview with Jan Morris was recorded in 1989. She died last Friday at the age of 94. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we celebrate Thanksgiving in good company with Conan O'Brien. Last week, he announced he'll be ending his TBS late-night show in June after 28 years of hosting late-night shows. We'll listen back to the interview we recorded in October 2019. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much, indeed."}
{"id": "938890222", "date": "2020-11-25", "guest": "Jan Morris", "title": "Remembering Travel Writer And Memoirist Jan Morris", "question_index": 10, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Ann Marie Baldonado, Therese Madden, Thea Chaloner and Kayla Lattimore. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Seth Kelley directed today's show. We wish you a happy Thanksgiving. We know many of you will be unable to celebrate with family and friends because of COVID precautions. Please do what you need to do to stay safe and protect the people you love. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much, indeed."}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. I hope you're enjoying your Thanksgiving. We're going to spend our FRESH AIR Thanksgiving in the very good company of Conan O'Brien. Last week, he announced he'll be ending his late-night show in June after 28 years of hosting daily late-night shows. The last 10 years, his show was on TBS. One of his new projects will be hosting a weekly variety show on HBO Max. Conan O'Brien will continue to run his multimedia company, Team Coco. Conan started his career as a comedy writer for \"The Simpsons\" and \"Saturday Night Live.\" When he first started hosting NBC's \"Late Night With Conan O'Brien\" in the spot that had been David Letterman's, he was an unknown as a performer. A lot of people thought he wouldn't make it. But he's hosted late-night shows longer than anyone. His career has taken some surprising twists and turns, which we talked about when we recorded this interview last year in October. He was making changes then, too. Season 2 of his podcast, \"Conan O'Brien Needs A Friend,\" was about to start. He was cutting back his hour-long late-night show to a half hour. And his production company, Team Coco, was launching new projects.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Conan O'Brien, welcome back to FRESH AIR. It's been a long time. And it's a great pleasure to have you back. You're kind of shaking things up in your life. I mean, you've changed your hour TBS TV show into a half hour. And you're doing all these new podcast ventures and doing stand-up comedy. And now you have this series of performances at clubs around the country kind of produced by Team Coco. So what's going on in your life that made you want to make all these changes?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 2, "text": "I knew it. I knew if I asked, you would tell me that. Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm having a nervous breakdown."}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 3, "text": "I ask the questions that get the deep answers", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. No. If I am, it's a very..."}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Do you think the things that you find funny or the comedy that you want to do has been changing as you get older?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "clearly from the Netherlands, and you're very tall. And I thank them, and we meet for coffee, and then I move on. But I guess I got to a phase where I thought I don't - what I don't want to do is slee"}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 5, "text": "So are there jokes that you feel like you can't tell anymore in this era of heightened feminist awareness and the #MeToo movement? Like, one of the things you always used to do was, like, your Bob Hope growl at attractive women. I mean, you went really...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, probably. Well, I don't think the things that I find funny have changed. I still find the same things funny. And I really love the silly and the silliness and the absurdity that I can find in ev"}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yeah. That - I mean, that was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah (growling)."}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 7, "text": "And you'd massage your nipples...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. You know what? I still..."}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 8, "text": "...As part of the joke. Can you do that anymore?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't let go of..."}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Yes, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Well, first of all, I always molested myself..."}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Which I think we're still allowed to do."}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 11, "text": "No, no, agreed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm being really bluntly honest - as that sexual. And so I don't know that I do the growl as much anymore. But I find that the response is usually women laughing at me because it is such a caricature "}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Right, right. We're listening back to the interview I recorded last year with Conan O'Brien. We'll hear more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd hate to lose it completely."}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded in October of last year with Conan O'Brien. Last week, he announced that he'll end his late-night TBS show in June and then host a new weekly variety show on HBO Max.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd hate to lose it completely."}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 14, "text": "You've had the strangest career of all the late-night hosts. You'd been more of a writer than performer when you got your 12:30 late-night show on NBC, coming on right after \"The Tonight Show.\" No one knew who you were, and it took a while for you to catch on. When Leno left \"The Tonight Show,\" you replaced him. Leno got a 10 o'clock show that didn't do well. He wanted to go back to the 11:30 spot, and NBC let him do it. So before your year was up, you were out of the 11:30 spot. They offered you a spot at 12:05 to do \"The Tonight Show.\" And you basically said, that's ridiculous. And you left and, you know, a few months later, started your show on TBS. So your career has had this strange mix of, like, complete stardom and rejection mixed in. And I just think psychologically, that must really be like a roller coaster.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd hate to lose it completely."}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 15, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That was - first of all, just listening to you summarize it right now, I went through seven episodes of PTSD..."}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 16, "text": "Then they take it away", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "because this is pre - I mean, it wouldn't happen today. Today, if there was a major \"Late Night\" spot open, there would be 600 candidates from 600 different cable shows. So the whole way I got the sho"}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "because this is pre - I mean, it wouldn't happen today. Today, if there was a major \"Late Night\" spot open, there would be 600 candidates from 600 different cable shows. So the whole way I got the sho"}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 18, "text": "Was it helpful to you to have audiences who were incredibly enthusiastic about seeing you at this time when you'd been rejected from NBC?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...My predecessor it had - yeah. And then my, you know, my predecessor had had, you know, some difficult times. It all worked out. So the feeling was - at that point, I'd been on the air for 16 years "}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 19, "text": "What helped you through it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Oh, it was - it was therapeutic and satisfying to - you know, all I ever wanted to do was make people laugh. I know that sounds corny. The motivator, to me, is I just really do love getting in f"}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 20, "text": "Mmm hmm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I like being honest about this for other people out there. I had always done some therapy, but I went to - I got a lot of therapy, and I got some help with medication. And that helped a lot. And"}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 21, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded last year with Conan O'Brien. We'll hear more after we take a short break. And jazz critic Kevin Whitehead will review Sonny Rollins' studio and live recordings from 1967 that have just been released for the first time. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, it's funny. Everyone has a different - I used to think I'm not depressed; I'm just anxious. And I didn't understand. But I've always been - I was anxious as a little kid. I think I sta"}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Conan O'Brien, which we recorded in October 2019. Last week, he announced that he's going to end his late-night TBS show in June after 28 years of hosting late-night shows, which is longer than anyone. Sometime after that, he'll host a new weekly variety show on HBO Max. When we left off, we were talking about dealing with depression. He said he'd been feeling better and wasn't brooding so much about the show when he goes home.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, it's funny. Everyone has a different - I used to think I'm not depressed; I'm just anxious. And I didn't understand. But I've always been - I was anxious as a little kid. I think I sta"}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Do you think some of that is just kind of getting older and just having more perspective?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, it's funny. Everyone has a different - I used to think I'm not depressed; I'm just anxious. And I didn't understand. But I've always been - I was anxious as a little kid. I think I sta"}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Well, you're not old. You're older...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Definitely. I definitely think - I think getting old has a - gets a bad rap."}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 25, "text": "...Than you were.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So far..."}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 26, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I'm - well, I'm older than I was. But it's all relative. If you asked a 19-year-old YouTuber, they would probably say, Conan O'Brien, didn't he fight in the Civil War?"}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 27, "text": "So your father is an infectious disease expert - specialist. And your mother, until she retired, was a partner in a law firm. So growing up with that, it's, in a way, all about consequences like, germs that can kill you. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I'm probably the oldest person they can imagine. Like - but, you know, it's all relative. But yes, I completely understand. I've been lucky. And I've been healthy. And I move around a lot. And"}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 28, "text": "...With your mother, like, if you do the wrong thing - I don't know what kind of law she practiced, but if you do the wrong thing, you can be sued. You can go to prison.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 29, "text": "You know, so...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 30, "text": "Did you grow up with a sense that, like, everything has, like, life-changing consequences?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 31, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "..."}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 32, "text": "You know, with self-punishment, I sometimes think there's a sense of - like, if you punish yourself and if you're penitent in some way, that it will avoid a harsher externally given punishment. Like, I know I did wrong. I've punished myself, so you don't have to do anything. I've taken care of it. It's almost like, you know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know? And so talk about consequences. You know, to my parents' credit, they really did imbue in all of us a really powerful moral code. And so we've had that since we were kids, too. And those "}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 33, "text": "...Preemptive punishment. But it could be, like, so damaging.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 34, "text": "Right. Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the other way - just as you were describing that - it's where self-deprecating humor comes from. And you know..."}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 35, "text": "I know. I know.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...That's my milieu is self-deprecating humor. But I'll make fun of myself before Terry Gross can because you're known to rip people apart on your show."}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 36, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So cruel."}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 37, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And every single - and it gets more and more absurd until a horse goes (imitating horse neighing) better be as good as Letterman."}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 38, "text": "So we were talking about self-punishment. What were you actually punished for when you were young?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- but it can - you know what I'm talking about. Anyway - but it's very much - it's all about control. And comedians are the ultimate control freaks. So we're trying to control how you feel about us at"}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 39, "text": "Oh, you really did that? You really had it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The thing I remember most clearly is I think I'm the last person who's - at least of my generation, but maybe - I don't think there's anyone after me who ever had their mouth washed out with soap."}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 40, "text": "Boy, you know that was always...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When did that happen? And it was a total anomaly, but, no, I think we would get in trouble if we, you know, mouthed off or were disrespectful to my mom. You'd get sent to your room - nothing - you kno"}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 41, "text": "There was always an expression, like, you have a filthy mouth. I'm going to wash your mouth out with soap, and I've never knew anyone until now who actually had their mouth washed with soap. I would think it's really bad for your mouth tissues, which are sensitive, to have Dial soap all over them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...No, there was nothing..."}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 42, "text": "Yes, I would have warned her about the medical repercussions of this form of punishment.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, I wish you'd been there at the time."}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 43, "text": "This is not a good thing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wish you could have materialized and told this hill folk from Prince Edward Island..."}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 44, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wish you had said, you know, excuse me, pardon me, I worry about his mouth tissues."}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 45, "text": "Did it prevent you from ever mouthing off again to anyone?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think this is the proper use of - maybe a liquid soap. Is there a liquid Dial soap in the house? I think that would be softer, and he could expectorate it more easily. Who are you? I'm Terry G"}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 46, "text": "Obviously not.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, of course not."}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 47, "text": "There we go. We made the jump", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it doesn't - it's complete proof that capital punishment doesn't work. No."}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 48, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it doesn't - it's complete proof that capital punishment doesn't work. No."}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 49, "text": "We're listening back to the interview I recorded last year with Conan O'Brien. We'll hear more of the interview after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We made the jump. It doesn't work."}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 50, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded in October of last year with Conan O'Brien. Last week, he announced he'll end his late-night TBS show in June and then host a new weekly variety show on HBO Max.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We made the jump. It doesn't work."}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 51, "text": "Your TBS show starts with this montage of you - of, like, Conan through the years, starting with you when you're a very young child and then being, like, an older...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We made the jump. It doesn't work."}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 52, "text": "...Child and a teenager and an adult and then having your own shows. So I wanted to spend a little more time in the young Conan years. You love music, and you play guitar. You sing. You don't try to pass yourself off as a professional musician, but you clearly love music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 53, "text": "In the studio where you are, there was a guitar sitting there. And during the soundcheck, I heard you just playing around with it. Would you be willing to just play and sing something that you were so proud you learned when you were young, when you first picked up a guitar?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, God, no."}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 54, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I first picked up - oh, well, OK. This is - when a comedian picks up a guitar, unless he's Steve Martin, it's time to go. It's time to get out, so you've been warned. Yeah, there's a, I think, ki"}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 55, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We can make him do this. But hold on."}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 56, "text": "Yeah, so I loved it. That was great. You really put yourself into that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Well, I said blue moon, blue moon, blue moon keep on, keep shining bright. Well, blue moon, keep on shining bright, going to bring me back my baby tonight. Blue moon, keep shining bright. I "}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 57, "text": "That was great. I'm trying to picture you as, like, a 10-year-old or 13-year-old trying to be Elvis...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Why are you crying?"}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 58, "text": "...In your bedroom.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was a little older than that."}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 59, "text": "Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I was about 18."}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 60, "text": "Right, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's where the hair came from and..."}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 61, "text": "Conan O'Brien, it's been great to have you back on the show. Thank you so much. And good luck with all the new projects you have now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's why I wanted - I really wanted - I wanted black hair. And, you know, keep in mind, this is, you know - it's all the wrong time. I'm supposed to be listening to The Clash or something. I'm suppo"}
{"id": "938521404", "date": "2020-11-26", "guest": "Conan O'Brien", "title": "Conan O'Brien On Late-Night TV: 'All I Ever Wanted To Do Was Make People Laugh'", "question_index": 62, "text": "Oh, thank you so much for saying that. My interview with Conan O'Brien was recorded last year in October. Last week, he announced he'll end his TBS late-night show in June and that he'll host a new weekly variety show on HBO Max. After we take a short break, jazz critic Kevin Whitehead will review a new collection of Sonny Rollins studio and live recordings from 1967 that have never been released before. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. And you are one of my all-time favorite people to talk to. And you're really brilliant at this. And it's a joy, so thank you so much for having me on. This is free therapy. I appreciate it."}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 0, "text": "Carol Burnett, congratulations on your Kennedy Center honor, the republication of your memoir and the new forthcoming production of \"Once Upon A Mattress.\"", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Today, we're featuring two conversations with Carol Burnett, one with Terry Gross from 2003 and a new one with me recorded last week. Let's start with Terry's interview. She spoke with Carol Burnett o"}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 1, "text": "And welcome to FRESH AIR", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you."}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 2, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you."}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 3, "text": "Now, the book of yours that's just been published with a new afterword is a memoir about your childhood and your coming of age. When you were young - you know how some people see life as a tragedy and some people see life as a comedy? You're largely a comedic actress. When you were growing up, did you see the comedy in life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks, Terry. Thank you."}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 4, "text": "Now, you were raised primarily by your grandmother even when your mother was alive, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I think I did. I had a lot of laughs with my grandmother and my mother. They had great senses of humor. And people who read the memoir and have read it, they think, oh, my gosh, that was a real t"}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 5, "text": "Now, two things I read about your grandmother that seem totally contradictory to me or at least difficult to live with as a package is that, one, she was a hypochondriac. And, two, she was a Christian scientist.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Actually, my folks, my parents, came to Hollywood from Texas and left me there with my grandmother. They were hoping that they were going to strike it big out here in Hollywood. And then they div"}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 6, "text": "Was she both?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Go figure."}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "feeling her pulse..."}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And saying, oh, my god, I'm dying. Get me a phenobarbital."}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 10, "text": "Was she a dramatic hypochondriac? Did she have a theatrical flair about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "she had all the bases covered. If God didn't come through for her and she didn't know the truth well enough, I would have to run in and, you know, get the pills and give it to her."}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes. Yes. And she could kind of look like she was going to faint, you know, and lie down and fan herself, you know, with her hand and put a wash rag on her forehead. But then if somebody came and"}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 12, "text": "Now, your parents were both drinkers. They were alcoholics. Did they become different people when they drank?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Ready to go."}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 13, "text": "Was she mean to you when she got drunk?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know? He just got sweeter. But he was ineffectual. He couldn't hold a job. You know, he was just a hopeless - he had that disease. Momma didn't start drinking until later. And she wasn't living"}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 14, "text": "Now, you grew up in Los Angeles. You went to Hollywood High. How do you think your encounters with the world of show business were any different growing up in Los Angeles and going to Hollywood High than they would have been had you, say, stayed in San Antonio? Were you...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview with Carol Burnett. Sixty-five episodes of \"The Carol Burnett Show\" are being shown in full for the first time since her series left the air more"}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 15, "text": "Were you connected by geography to the world of Hollywood?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not at all. It could have been a different name. The difference was we had all these movie theaters on Hollywood Boulevard. And my grandmother would save up enough money because way back then, bef"}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 17, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, and we would see - on average, in the '40s, we would see eight movies a week because we would go to two movies during the week and then two on the weekend. But they were all double features "}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 18, "text": "Was there a point when you realized that's what she wanted to do and not necessarily what you wanted to do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And - yeah."}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 19, "text": "Were you afraid they'd shoot it down and tell you you weren't pretty enough...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "you know - it was a great way to meet guys. I thought, this is really kind of what I want to do. But I wouldn't tell my grandmother, and I wouldn't tell Mama..."}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 20, "text": "...You're not pretty enough, you're not - whatever?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 21, "text": "And did they ever get around to telling you that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You got it. Yeah. So..."}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 22, "text": "It's very nice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, like Mama, you know - and I don't want to lay this on her because she didn't really know what she was saying at the time. She was saying, listen - be a writer because no matter what you look lik"}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 23, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She didn't - she really - she's just saying, you know, no matter what, you can always write. You know, and she was being very supportive because I actually was a pretty good writer. But then I got int"}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 24, "text": "You knew you wanted to get to New York. After you fell in love with acting, you knew you wanted to get to New York. You knew you didn't have the money to get there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "like - so that was the first time I ever sang in public was that scene. And then I got involved in opera workshop. And I thought, this is what I want, is musical comedy. So the following semester we w"}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 25, "text": "And you ended up getting a thousand dollars from someone who saw you do a sketch at a party and thought you were really talented...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 26, "text": "...And became like your benefactor. And they were anonymous, I believe. Or was it just that you're keeping them anonymous from the rest of us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 27, "text": "Got it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm keeping them - this..."}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 28, "text": "So you knew who they were, but we don't know. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 29, "text": "So with that thousand dollars, you got to New York, and you started performing there. And you ended up being on television in the pretty early days of TV, in the formative years. In 1955, for instance, you were on the Paul Winchell and Jerry Mahoney show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, right."}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 30, "text": "And this is, you know, a show of ventriloquists and dummies that all the kids watched.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 31, "text": "All the kids watched it. And, you know, what did you do on the show?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 32, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I was just kind of like a sidekick. I didn't do too much comedy because that was all the dummies, you know. Jerry Mahoney and Knucklehead Smiff were their names. So, actually, I kind of sang a lot"}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 33, "text": "Carol Burnett speaking to Terry Gross in 2003. After a break, we'll continue their conversation and hear another new conversation with Carol Burnett talking about her hand-picked, just-released hours of \"The Carol Burnett Show\" on streaming video. But, first, here's an example of one of the musical treats this new unedited collection is presenting - a duet between Carol and Bing Crosby. I'm David Bianculli, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And I - boy, I ran over there. And Garry explained to the audience that I had, you know, just come in and learned it. And they were very receptive. So then he asked me to be a regular weekly, and th"}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 34, "text": "Did you have a sense that, you know, TV was in its infancy then and that the rules could be made up as you went along, that things weren't fixed in stone yet?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm TV critic David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross. We're listening back to Terry's 2003 interview with Carol Burnett. Sixty-five episodes of her classic variety series \"The Carol Bu"}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 35, "text": "Why not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no, I did not. To me, it was a stepping stone to Broadway. I still, you know - and at the time, I was in a show called \"Once Upon A Mattress\" off-Broadway, and so I was doubling. I was doing Garry"}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 36, "text": "Why not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...At all."}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 37, "text": "Oh - and not doing the same show every night on Broadway?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So that was - you know, again, somebody said that, so I accepted it. And when Garry hired me, I was kind of surprised, you know? So I just kind of thought, no, I'm a belter, and I'm a comic, and I b"}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 38, "text": "You're describing \"The Carol Burnett Show.\" That's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct. And so I could do these different characters and be dressed differently and become different people, sometimes three or four different people in one show. And I liked that. And I liked having"}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 39, "text": "...\"The Carol Burnett Show.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's exact..."}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 40, "text": "Well, one of the things your show, \"The Carol Burnett Show,\" was famous for was your movie parodies.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's exactly right. I patterned our show after Garry and, of course, after Sid Caesar, you know, who was a past master at it and had the great rep company and did all these different characters. And"}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 41, "text": "And you said earlier that when you were a kid, you'd go to maybe eight movies a week with your grandmother. Are there movies from your childhood that you ended up doing parodies of on \"The Carol Burnett Show\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 42, "text": "Is it fun to do the kind of glamour roles that you figure you're probably not going to get 'cause you're a comedic actress and you don't think of yourself as the glamorous type? So is it fun to do those glamour roles but to do, like, the comic version of them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so - I mean, even - and, oh, we did \"A Double Life.\" No, \"A Stolen Life\" - Bette Davis, where I play - where she played a good twin and an evil twin. So there were just so - I would just go to the"}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 43, "text": "You mentioned Bob Mackie, who did the costumes for your show, and he's - God, he's designed so many, like, really extravagant gowns over the years. I mean, you know, he did Cher's clothes, too. So what - go ahead.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2003 interview with Carol Burnett."}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 44, "text": "Did he design for Harvey Korman in drag?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What he did on our show, which people don't know - don't realize. He designed everything you saw on our show, including the wigs, including the makeup so that whatever - not just what I wore but what "}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 45, "text": "Describe it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes, yes. That's all Bob. And of course, the greatest sight gag ever, I think - one of the greatest - was his idea for the \"Gone With The Wind\" sketch with the curtain rod dress."}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 46, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when we did \"Gone With The Wind\" the takeoff, there's a scene when Scarlett O'Hara - Rhett Butler is coming to call on her. And she doesn't want Rhett to know that they're poor. So she rips the "}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 47, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And ran straight out, tied with the fringe around the waist. And, I mean, it was the silliest looking thing you've ever seen in your life. And I fell on the floor. And then when we did it, you know"}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 48, "text": "Did your grandmother live to see any of your performing success?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "? But what fun."}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 49, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "she - one time, we came out to Hollywood to do two or three weeks of \"The Garry Moore Show.\" And Nanny came and was sitting in the audience. Now, she loved to get dressed up. And she had great legs, s"}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 50, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And she would wear bright colors and all. You know, she really liked to doll up. Anyway, she's sitting in the audience. And Gary Moore comes out. And he says, now, I understand Carol's grandmother is "}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 51, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "you know, the winners' look."}
{"id": "938874420", "date": "2020-11-27", "guest": "Carol Burnett", "title": "Carol Burnett On Her Signature Ear Pull And Accessing A Wide Audience", "question_index": 52, "text": "Look; I just want to thank you so much for talking with us. It's really been such a pleasure to talk with you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And she was hysterical. And I wanted to die. I was so embarrassed in the ways that Gary got the biggest kick out of her. And yes, yes. She did get to see me do a few things."}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Over the past few months, I haven't been able to listen to as much music as I'd like because so much of my listening time has been devoted to shows and podcasts about politics, the election and COVID. But when I do listen to music, really good music, I feel especially vulnerable to the mood, whether it's joy or sadness. And that's how I felt when I listened to the new album by Loudon Wainwright and Vince Giordano of songs from the 1920s and '30s. It's the period Giordano typically draws from with the 11-piece band he leads, the Nighthawks. During normal times, the band attracts devoted followers who come to listen and dance. He plays tuba, bass and bass saxophone. But this is not the music you'd associate with Loudon Wainwright, who's best known for writing and performing his own songs, which range from confessional songs about family dysfunction to satirical songs about politics and other issues. His children include singer-songwriters Rufus and Martha Wainwright and Lucy Wainwright Roche, and they sometimes write songs about family, too. Loudon Wainwright and Vince Giordano previously worked together on the HBO series \"Boardwalk Empire,\" which was set during Prohibition and was about gangsters who made bootleg liquor and who served it in nightclubs in Atlantic City. Giordano and his band performed a lot of the music for the show. Loudon Wainwright sang a couple of the songs. The title track of their new album, \"I'd Rather Lead A Band,\" is a song from the Fred Astaire-Ginger Rogers movie \"Follow The Fleet.\" The album also features songs by Rodgers and Hart, Fats Waller, Harold Arlen, Frank Loesser and others. Vince Giordano and Loudon Wainwright are joining us from the Hobo Sound Studio in New Jersey, where they're socially distanced in separate rooms. They brought their instruments and are going to perform some songs for us, but let's start with a track from the album that may help brighten your mood if you're feeling down. It's called \"So The Bluebirds And The Blackbirds Got Together.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 1, "text": "LOUDON WAINWRIGHT III, VINCE", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 2, "text": "Loudon Wainwright, Vince Giordano, welcome, both of you, back to FRESH AIR. I love this album. There's so much joy in that recording that we just heard. I know this song from the Rhythm Boys and Paul Whiteman, which had the original recording, I think in, like, 1929. How did you choose it for the album?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Look at my doorstep. Look at my doorstep. Look at the blackbirds. Look at the bluebirds. Look at the bad luck. Look at the good luck there. Never saw bluebirds mingle with blackbirds, never "}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 3, "text": "No one?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's just a fun, uplifting song, and it's not one of those songs that everyone has done. No one has done this since the Rhythm Boys did it back in the late '20s, early '30s."}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 4, "text": "If anyone would know, you would know. I'm sure of that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not that I know of."}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 5, "text": "So describe this project for us. What's the backstory of how you two got together to record this album of music from the '20s and '30s?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Definitely."}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the first time that Vince and I worked together was on a Martin Scorsese movie called \"The Aviator,\" his Howard Hughes biopic. And we sang songs in that movie, and that was - and spent time in M"}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 7, "text": "Vince, you play this kind of music all the time. But, Loudon, and I don't associate music from the '20s and '30s with you unless it's kind of, you know, like, folk country-ish music, like your Charlie Poole project. So where does this music fit in your musical life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So it was kind of a wonderful, very happy experience that started out with those guys, Randy and Stuart, thinking that it would be a cool thing for us to make a record together."}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 8, "text": "Some people hate their fathers' music, but you liked it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, my dad had a great record collection. It was eclectic. It had folk music and jazz, a lot of Broadway musicals. But I grew up listening to that stuff, and a lot of the songs that wound up on "}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 9, "text": "And I like that you're not trying to, like, sing in period. You're just singing in your voice, and it sounds so great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did like it. I - you know, he loved music, and to watch him be enthralled by this great material was - it was thrilling for me as a little kid, you know? So I - as you mentioned, it's - a lot of it "}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 10, "text": "So we asked if you would be willing to perform a couple of songs for us. So you each brought your instruments, and you're in a recording studio right now. So would you play \"Ain't Misbehavin'\" for us? And, Vince, I think you'll be playing tuba. And, Loudon, you actually brought a guitarist with you, David Mansfield, so he'll be featured on guitar. So do you want to say anything about why you chose \"Ain't Misbehavin'\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I kind of saw it as an acting job, not to do an imitation of Bing Crosby but - or something like that - but to just sing it in my voice but somehow emotionally inhabit the material."}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 11, "text": "And let's give credit to the lyricist, Andy Razaf, and also say that, you know, one of the things I like about the song hearing it now is that it's really about being alone, you know, because, you know, your lover is away. But we're so much of - we're spending so much time alone, or relatively alone, right now, even if we're alone with others. There's not a lot of socializing for a lot of us. So why don't you play \"Ain't Misbehavin'\" for us? This song is on the album, but this is Vince Giordano and Loudon doing it live for us with a guitar assist by David Mansfield (ph).", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, so many people love this song. Fats Waller, you know, was, of course, a great entertainer, and his songs - it's a great little vehicle. And people really relate to it, you know? When the"}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 12, "text": "So that was Loudon Wainwright singing and Vince Giordano on tuba, with David Mansfield on guitar, and that song is on the new album, \"I'd Rather Lead A Band,\" which features songs from the '20s and '30s, and it features Loudon singing and Vince Giordano's band, the Nighthawks. That was just, like, so much fun. And, Vince, it's so great to hear tuba being so prominent. It's not an instrument that is often prominently featured anymore. And, certainly, there are very few tuba solos that you get to hear. That was just lovely.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Playing tuba). (Singing) Though it's a fickle age, with flirting all the rage, here is one bird with self-control, happy inside my cage. I know who I love best. Thumbs-down for all the rest. My love "}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 13, "text": "You have your - yes. You have your tuba with you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you."}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 14, "text": "I think so few people know much about tuba. Can you just pick up your tuba again and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 15, "text": "...Just give us a sense of some of the things the instrument can do. Like, let's start with, like, what's the highest note you can get, and what's the lowest?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 16, "text": "That's great. What are some of the most influential recordings for you as a tuba player that made you want to play tuba and shaped, like, what you wanted to do with it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I - let me get it up here. I haven't really been playing much in this non-playing time. I mean, there are tuba virtuosos who can play as high as a trumpet. You know, they have chops. T"}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 17, "text": "What were some of the typical bass lines that would be played on tuba then in the '20s?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, most of the dance band music for the 1920s features a tuba in the rhythm section 'cause it was a great instrument to record. It was much louder than the string bass in those years, and there was"}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 18, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guests are singer and songwriter Loudon Wainwright and Vince Giordano, who leads the small big band the Nighthawks and plays tuba, bass and bass saxophone. Their new album together is called \"I'd Rather Lead A Band.\" Vince Giordano's band was featured in the HBO series \"Boardwalk Empire,\" the Martin Scorsese film \"The Aviator\" and Francis Ford Coppola's film \"The Cotton Club.\" We'll be back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, very simple. You're just doing the root note, the five (ph) note - you know, like what I was just playing there, something like (playing tuba). So sometimes you get a little fill in between. Ver"}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with bandleader and musician Vince Giordano, who specializes in music from the 1920s and '30s, and Loudon Wainwright, a singer-songwriter who's known for his very personal songs that reflect his complicated feelings about love and family. They have a new album of songs from the 1920s and '30s. It's called \"I'd Rather Lead A Band.\" So the music we've heard so far is music that's really just kind of upbeat and joyful. We're going to change moods here. This is such a lonely, beautiful song. It's called \"A Ship Without A Sail.\" It's a Rodgers and Hart song. I love the song. And, Loudon, after I heard you singing it, the song went through my head nonstop for a week. And then when I went back to the album, the same thing happened - like, another week", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, very simple. You're just doing the root note, the five (ph) note - you know, like what I was just playing there, something like (playing tuba). So sometimes you get a little fill in between. Ver"}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 20, "text": "of this song just living in my head.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, very simple. You're just doing the root note, the five (ph) note - you know, like what I was just playing there, something like (playing tuba). So sometimes you get a little fill in between. Ver"}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 21, "text": "No, it's such great company. Tell me why you chose the song and what it means to you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Gee, I'm sorry about that."}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 22, "text": "And Lee Wiley was a jazz singer who recorded in the '30s, '40s and '50s. And her version is the first version I heard, too. Do you have a favorite set of lines from the song that you'd like to quote before we hear you sing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My girlfriend Susan (ph) had a Lee Wiley record in the car. And the car has a CD player in it. And I just heard this song - I don't know when - like, a year ago or something and just fell in love with"}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 23, "text": "My breast an empty shell comes after.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wow. Well, the whole - I think it's in the verse in the beginning, the whole thing about my head is just a hat place. I can't remember the lines that precede and follow that, but it's just one of thos"}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 24, "text": "And if you're feeling a little lonely during COVID, I think this song will have a lot of resonance for you. So let's hear it. And this is from the new Loudon Wainwright, Vince Giordano and the Nighthawks album. And the album is called \"I'd Rather Lead A Band.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's just - it's great, great writing, and it just sends a chill. It's just a great, great, beautifully written thing by Hart."}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 25, "text": "WAINWRIGHT,", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's just - it's great, great writing, and it just sends a chill. It's just a great, great, beautifully written thing by Hart."}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 26, "text": "That was the Rodgers and Hart song \"A Ship Without A Sail,\" as performed on the new Loudon Wainwright, Vince Giordano collaboration of songs from the '20s and '30s, and the album is called \"I'd Rather Lead A Band.\" Was this album one of the last things you did before COVID shut things down?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I don't know what day it is or if it's dark or fair. Somehow that's just the way it is. And I don't really care. I go to this or that place. I seem alive and well. My head is just a hat plac"}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 27, "text": "Let me reintroduce you both. If you're just joining us, my guests are singer and songwriter Loudon Wainwright and bandleader, arranger and musician Vince Giordano. Their new album together is called \"I'd Rather Lead A Band.\" We'll be back with more conversation and music after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We were - our hope was to do - you know, everybody in the band - in Vince's band is kind of in the tri-state, New York, New Jersey, Connecticut area. So - and I live here, too. So our hope was to do s"}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 28, "text": "WAINWRIGHT,", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We were - our hope was to do - you know, everybody in the band - in Vince's band is kind of in the tri-state, New York, New Jersey, Connecticut area. So - and I live here, too. So our hope was to do s"}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Vince Giordano and Loudon Wainwright. Giordano plays tuba, bass and bass saxophone and leads the band the Nighthawks. Wainwright is known for his songs about complicated love and family dysfunction. He's also a great singer. Loudon Wainwright and Vince Giordano and the Nighthawks have teamed up on the new album \"I'd Rather Lead A Band,\" which features songs from the 1920s and '30s. I'm interested in how your lives have changed. I mean, you're both musicians, which means you often keep musician hours - playing at night, probably, sleeping late and on the road sometimes. All things - you know, you can't perform in clubs now or concerts, definitely not going on the road. So what are some of the ways your life has been changed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Like Jack Horner in a corner, don't go nowhere. What do I care? Your kisses are worth waiting for. Believe me. I don't stay out late, don't care to go. I'm home about 8..."}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 30, "text": "So you said you were working on old scores. What does that mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I just keep busy. I'm working on old scores. I'm working on projects that I've put off for 15 years - some really exciting musical things and then some kind of mundane things, like putting up my"}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 31, "text": "So a lot of the arrangements that you play are from old scores? And you have the old paper sitting in your file, so you transcribe that into this program and make the changes that you want?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", when there's nothing else on the books."}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 32, "text": "And, Loudon, how are you spending your time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's it. And the guys are happier reading paper that's larger and notes that are larger. You know, everyone's getting up there in age. And the notes are getting smaller."}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 33, "text": "Seriously?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've read six Charles Dickens books."}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm on \"Little Dorrit\" now."}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 35, "text": "Well, Vince, I know you bought the house next door to you just to store, like, the tens of thousands of recordings and music scores and piano rolls and all that stuff. Are you spending more time there in that other house, going through stuff?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm not kidding, actually. I've been reading a lot. I live out on the end of Long Island. And when the weather was warmer, I was in my sailboat and walking around a lot. But, yeah, I'm unemployed, bas"}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 36, "text": "So the arrangements are so great on this new album. And some of them are just, like, pure joy. And some of them are just really lovely and beautiful. Did you use the arrangements from the original recordings or use your interpretations of them or write them from scratch?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Yes, finding things that I haven't seen in 20 or 30 years and tidying up all the loose ends - and also the garage. There were eight crates of music that someone gave me about 15, 16 years ag"}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 37, "text": "And did you end up using it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "wrote this out. And you want us to play it? I said, let's try it. We'll take a couple of takes."}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 38, "text": "So which part is the Ravel, because I was not aware of that, so I did not notice it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah. It's there. And that was never recorded by the Whiteman band. But I got the arrangement from Williams College where a majority of his arrangements reside in the Whiteman Collection."}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 39, "text": "Let's just hear that part again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right after Loudon sings, there's this crazy woodwind part that goes something like, doodly (ph), doodly, doodly, doodly, doodly, doodly, doodly, doodly, doodly, (vocalizing). There's this underneath "}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 40, "text": "OK. So that was the Ravel part", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right after Loudon sings, there's this crazy woodwind part that goes something like, doodly (ph), doodly, doodly, doodly, doodly, doodly, doodly, doodly, doodly, (vocalizing). There's this underneath "}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 41, "text": "that you borrowed. Yeah, nice. Let me reintroduce you both. If you're just joining us, my guests are singer and songwriter Loudon Wainwright and Vince Giordano, who leads the small big band the Nighthawks and plays tuba, bass and bass saxophone. Their new album together is called \"I'd Rather Lead A Band.\" We'll be back after we take a short break. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right after Loudon sings, there's this crazy woodwind part that goes something like, doodly (ph), doodly, doodly, doodly, doodly, doodly, doodly, doodly, doodly, (vocalizing). There's this underneath "}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 42, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with bandleader and musician Vince Giordano, who specializes in music from the 1920s and '30s, and Loudon Wainwright, a singer-songwriter who's known for his very personal songs that reflect his complicated feelings about love and family. So you were generous enough to actually go to a studio, where you're socially distanced in separate rooms, so that you could do a couple of songs for us that you also do on the album. So I'm going to ask you to do a song that I'd never heard before that I really like called \"How I Love You.\" And Loudon, is there a story behind the song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right after Loudon sings, there's this crazy woodwind part that goes something like, doodly (ph), doodly, doodly, doodly, doodly, doodly, doodly, doodly, doodly, (vocalizing). There's this underneath "}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 43, "text": "I agree. You captured the fun", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's a great song."}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 44, "text": ". So Loudon's going to be playing ukulele on this and Vince on tuba. So you want to give it a go for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's a great song."}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 45, "text": "That was wonderful.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Through fields of golden flowers, where we spent sunny hours, I'm strolling along, thinking of you. I told the four-leaf clover, my lonesome days are over. I talk about you all the day throu"}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 46, "text": "That was Loudon Wainwright singing and playing ukulele and Vince Giordano playing tuba. And they just did that for us. They have an album of songs from the 1920s and '30s that's called \"I'd Rather Lead A Band.\" That song is on the album. What you just heard was - they just did just for us. And, Loudon, I love that scat chorus, which is not", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Through fields of golden flowers, where we spent sunny hours, I'm strolling along, thinking of you. I told the four-leaf clover, my lonesome days are over. I talk about you all the day throu"}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 47, "text": "something you do on the album.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Through fields of golden flowers, where we spent sunny hours, I'm strolling along, thinking of you. I told the four-leaf clover, my lonesome days are over. I talk about you all the day throu"}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 48, "text": "So you play ukulele on that. I think the ukulele is an instrument that's often kind of mocked. What do you really like about the instrument?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no. It's not - you know, it kind of is a stretch from the family dysfunctional material that I'm so well known for. It's very optimistic and up, which is - I love that aspect of it."}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 49, "text": "You actually do another song that Ukulele Ike originated.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And portable. It's got a great look to it, and it is light and two strings less than a guitar. It's got four strings on it. And Vince mentioned Cliff Edwards, who was also known as Ukulele Ike - gr"}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 50, "text": "And it's called \"I'm Going To Give It To Mary With Love.\" And this is a song...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 51, "text": "And this is a song - I'm trying to think. It's a double entendre song, you know, because it's like, I'm going to give it to Mary with love, and the it is - how do we put it? There's also a line - I'm going to - she's going to hold it in her little hands, so maybe that'll give you a sense of what the it is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 52, "text": "I'm getting kind of lewd. I used to play this on my show when I had a radio show in Buffalo on the college station because it was so amusing to me that the guy who did the voice on \"Pinocchio\" and who was famous for singing \"When You Wish Upon A Star\" was singing this incredibly lewd song. So - yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, you're getting kind of lewd here. I don't know."}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 53, "text": "Right. And for people who don't know the expression, party records are lewd records", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It comes from a party record, and there's no composer on the record. It's - the record was - the company was called The Hollywood Hot Shots, and that was it. And Cliff Edwards went in and out of good "}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 54, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It comes from a party record, and there's no composer on the record. It's - the record was - the company was called The Hollywood Hot Shots, and that was it. And Cliff Edwards went in and out of good "}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 55, "text": "With a lot of double entendres - the old ones had a lot of double entendres, yeah. Under the counter - is that what you said?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes."}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 56, "text": "So it's interesting that he did that because he was down on his luck. I had no idea about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think they were sold kind of on the sly."}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 57, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guests are singer and songwriter Loudon Wainwright, and Vince Giordano, who leads the small big band The Nighthawks and plays tuba, bass and bass saxophone. Their new album together featuring songs of the 1920s and '30s is called \"I'd Rather Lead A Band.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he - I think they were going to put him in a pauper's grave. And people - Walt Disney liked him very much and the company. And they put an actual tombstone for him. But he really pushed the enve"}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 58, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with bandleader and musician Vince Giordano, who specializes in music from the 1920s and '30s, and Loudon Wainwright, a singer-songwriter who's known for his very personal songs that reflect his complicated feelings about love and family. They have a new album of songs from the '20s and '30s called \"I'd Rather Lead a Band.\" Some of the songs on here. I mean, these are songs from the 1920s and '30s. And so a lot of the songs are like from the Depression era. And there's a good deal of songs from that era that are all about, you know, the simple pleasures of life because that's all people had. They didn't have money. And you do one of those songs on the new album, \"The Little Things In Life.\" And it's also a song about, you know, forming a family and having a baby and how, like, perfect that is. So it's an interesting song for you to sing, Loudon, because your songs - your original songs are about how imperfect families are and how difficult fatherhood is. So what was the - singing this song is just so out of character for you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he - I think they were going to put him in a pauper's grave. And people - Walt Disney liked him very much and the company. And they put an actual tombstone for him. But he really pushed the enve"}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 59, "text": "And it's also about the basics, which, you know, many people still have, you know. So it's about finding pleasure in the little things in life. So let's hear it. Vince, is there anything you want to say about it before we play it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it's idealistic. But - and I think Bing Crosby might have had a big hit with this one. We took a shot and did it. It's just a great, lovely little song that's positive. So - and yeah, as you s"}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 60, "text": "So this is \"The Little Things In Life,\" an early Irving Berlin song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, it's - what I call one of Irving Berlin's sleepers because not too many people know about it. It's not from a show or a film. It's just a pop song that he penned out of the many thousa"}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 61, "text": "OK, pretty early. And it's from the Loudon Wainwright-Vince Giordano album \"I'd Rather Lead A Band.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "1930."}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 62, "text": "WAINWRIGHT,", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "1930."}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 63, "text": "So that's a lovely song from the new album, \"I'd Rather Lead A Band,\" featuring Loudon Wainwright and Vince Giordano and his band, The Nighthawks. Well, I want to end with one more song, and I'm going to ask you to perform it for us. It's a song by Frank Loesser called \"More I Cannot Wish\" You that's from one of my favorite shows, \"Guys And Dolls.\" And it was hardly my favorite song from the show, but I really love the way you do it. It just feels very, very meaningful to me. Can you talk about why you chose this and what the song means to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) (Singing) Just a little room or two can more than do a little man and wife. That's if they're contented with the little things in life. Living on a larger scale would soon entail a lot of ca"}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 64, "text": "And he wrote so many different kinds of shows. I mean, there's \"Guys And Dolls.\" That's all kind of, you know, streetwise talk. And then he wrote, basically, an operetta...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this goes back to the thing we were talking about earlier. I was mentioning my father's record collection. \"Guys And Dolls\" was in the collection, and I listened to it as a kid. And interestingl"}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 65, "text": "...Like, an opera. \"The Most Happy Fella,\" yeah, which is so different both, you know, melodically and lyrically. So I'm going to ask you to close by playing the Frank Loesser song \"More I Cannot Wish You\" from \"Guys And Dolls.\" And the song is on the album. But this is a performance in the studio that they are doing just for us. And we'll hear Loudon on vocals. And he brought in David Mansfield to play guitar on this. And we'll hear Vince Giordano not on tuba this time, but on bass. Thank you both so much for your generosity in doing this for us and playing for us and going to the studio, socially distanced in separate rooms, and for being here to talk with us. And thank you for the wonderful album.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, \"Most Happy Fella\""}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 66, "text": "So that was Loudon Wainwright and Vince Giordano performing in the Hobo Sound studio in Weehawken, N.J. We thank the engineer there, James Frazee, for his really great work. And also, thanks to Stewart Lerman, one of the producers of Vincent and Loudon's album, who was also there for the session to help produce that. Thank you all so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Velvet I can wish you for the collar of your coat and fortune smiling all along your way. But more I cannot wish you than to wish you'll find your love, your own true love this day. Mansions"}
{"id": "941204290", "date": "2020-12-02", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 67, "text": "Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll talk about what President Trump has been doing in his final weeks in the White House related to American national security and defense. He's ousted his defense secretary and the head of the Pentagon's Defeat-ISIS Task Force, has considered attacking Iran and is expected to pull troops from Afghanistan and Somalia. We'll talk with New York Times reporter Eric Schmitt, who's been covering these stories, as well as the killing of Iran's top nuclear scientist, which is believed to have been carried out by Israel. I hope you'll join us. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks, Terry."}
{"id": "942108601", "date": "2020-12-03", "guest": "Eric Schmitt", "title": "How National Security Could Be Upended In The Waning Days Of The Trump Presidency", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. In the days since the election, President Trump has taken actions that may hinder the incoming Biden administration from moving forward with its agenda and may affect American national security. Trump fired Defense Secretary Mark Esper and several other top officials in the Pentagon and replaced them with loyalists. Trump is said to be preparing to withdraw troops from Afghanistan, Iraq and Somalia. He's considered a strike on Iran against its nuclear weapons program. And this week, Trump fired the Pentagon policy official overseeing the military's efforts to combat ISIS. My guest, Eric Schmitt, has been covering these stories, as well as covering the assassination of the top scientist in Iran's secret nuclear weapons program. Israel is believed to have carried out the killing, and it's unclear if the Trump administration knew of the plan in advance. Schmitt reports that Pentagon and other national security officials have privately expressed worries that the Trump administration might initiate operations, overt or covert, against Iran or other adversaries at the end of his term. Eric Schmitt is a senior writer covering terrorism and national security for The Times. He's the author of the 2011 book \"Counterstrike: The Untold Story Of America's Secret Campaign Against Al Qaeda.\" He's shared three Pulitzer Prizes, including one in 2017 for examining how Vladimir Putin projects power openly and covertly. Eric Schmitt, welcome back to FRESH AIR. How unusual is it to make big changes in personnel during the transition to a new administration?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "942108601", "date": "2020-12-03", "guest": "Eric Schmitt", "title": "How National Security Could Be Upended In The Waning Days Of The Trump Presidency", "question_index": 1, "text": "What are some of the concerns you're hearing about what Trump might be planning before he leaves office?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the changes that President Trump has made just in the last few weeks have been very unusual. Typically, what'll happen in a transition period is that the core group - in this case, the Pentagon "}
{"id": "942108601", "date": "2020-12-03", "guest": "Eric Schmitt", "title": "How National Security Could Be Upended In The Waning Days Of The Trump Presidency", "question_index": 2, "text": "And to do that during the transition to a new administration, what would that mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, as you noted in your introduction, one thing that we've already written about was just a couple of weeks ago, the president held a high-level meeting at the White House with his top national sec"}
{"id": "942108601", "date": "2020-12-03", "guest": "Eric Schmitt", "title": "How National Security Could Be Upended In The Waning Days Of The Trump Presidency", "question_index": 3, "text": "Who are the people who are left in the Pentagon to perhaps say it is unwise to start a war right now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, obviously, what it would mean is you're starting a war that the next guy has to deal with. In this case, it could be a conflict. If it's narrow-focused on attacking a military installation, you "}
{"id": "942108601", "date": "2020-12-03", "guest": "Eric Schmitt", "title": "How National Security Could Be Upended In The Waning Days Of The Trump Presidency", "question_index": 4, "text": "So it's unclear whether the Trump administration was given advance warning from Israel that Israel was going to try to take out the scientist who headed the nuclear weapons program in Iran. So is it possible that the Trump administration not only knew but said, you know, we give the green light?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, again, we don't know a whole lot about where the new civilian leadership is. The acting secretary of defense, Christopher Miller, is a longtime counterterrorism analyst and operator. He was some"}
{"id": "942108601", "date": "2020-12-03", "guest": "Eric Schmitt", "title": "How National Security Could Be Upended In The Waning Days Of The Trump Presidency", "question_index": 5, "text": "Well, Iran seems to believe that America had some role in the assassination because it's blaming the U.S. and Israel.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we don't know exactly what the administration knew. But we do know this - the United States and Israel are very close partners, and they have acted very closely before in similar operations like"}
{"id": "942108601", "date": "2020-12-03", "guest": "Eric Schmitt", "title": "How National Security Could Be Upended In The Waning Days Of The Trump Presidency", "question_index": 6, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Eric Schmitt. He's a senior writer covering terrorism and national security for The New York Times. We'll be right back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. The criticism is most pointed against the Israelis. I think there's still many in Israel - in Iran, rather, who are hoping that there can be some kind of deal on the nuclear side rekindl"}
{"id": "942108601", "date": "2020-12-03", "guest": "Eric Schmitt", "title": "How National Security Could Be Upended In The Waning Days Of The Trump Presidency", "question_index": 7, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Eric Schmitt, a senior writer covering terrorism and national security for The New York Times. We're talking about the actions President Trump has taken in the days since the election and how those actions may affect our national security and the incoming Biden administration's plans. Trump has conducted a purge of top officials at the Defense Department, including Defense Secretary Mark Esper. And Trump has considered attacking Iran. So one more thing before we get off the subject of Iran - say the U.S. did strike Iran, what could that lead to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. The criticism is most pointed against the Israelis. I think there's still many in Israel - in Iran, rather, who are hoping that there can be some kind of deal on the nuclear side rekindl"}
{"id": "942108601", "date": "2020-12-03", "guest": "Eric Schmitt", "title": "How National Security Could Be Upended In The Waning Days Of The Trump Presidency", "question_index": 8, "text": "So in the meantime, Trump is expected to pull troops from Afghanistan, Iraq and Somalia. And we know that one of his goals has been to end those longtime wars. At the same time, if he ends up starting a war with Iran, does that seem kind of contradictory, or do you think maybe one of the reasons why he wants to pull troops is that - so he'll have more troops standing by in case he does attack Iran?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it really depends. I think it depends on the Iranian reaction. If it's a very focused strike on a nuclear facility, for instance, it would obviously be up to Iran to determine how - what kind of"}
{"id": "942108601", "date": "2020-12-03", "guest": "Eric Schmitt", "title": "How National Security Could Be Upended In The Waning Days Of The Trump Presidency", "question_index": 9, "text": "Who are those American hawks?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you've touched on kind of one of the paradoxes, of course, of the Trump presidency in that he's obviously always been somebody to tout his support for the military, military credentials, how he'"}
{"id": "942108601", "date": "2020-12-03", "guest": "Eric Schmitt", "title": "How National Security Could Be Upended In The Waning Days Of The Trump Presidency", "question_index": 10, "text": "Wait. So are you saying that the assassination of the head of Iran's nuclear program might have been an intentional provocation to start a war?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in the past, it's been people like Secretary of State Mike Pompeo, the national security adviser, Robert O'Brien. These have been some of the most vocal critics of the Iranian program. Notably i"}
{"id": "942108601", "date": "2020-12-03", "guest": "Eric Schmitt", "title": "How National Security Could Be Upended In The Waning Days Of The Trump Presidency", "question_index": 11, "text": "Well, I'm glad you're looking into it", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's - I mean, this is one of the theories flying around. This guy was essentially on a hit list. If you can get the opportunity to take him out, he has always been one of the major targets. And it's "}
{"id": "942108601", "date": "2020-12-03", "guest": "Eric Schmitt", "title": "How National Security Could Be Upended In The Waning Days Of The Trump Presidency", "question_index": 12, "text": ". I'm glad you're investigating. Yeah. Let's talk about Mark Esper, the secretary of defense who was ousted during the Pentagon purge. A lot of people think it was related to the night during the George Floyd protests when Trump had his infamous photo op in Lafayette Park and the police cleared the park with tear gas to get ready for the photo op. Esper was one of the people in that photo op, and he later said that he didn't know that that was going to be what this was about. He did not know that this was going to be that photo op. So what do you know about why Esper was fired?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's - I mean, this is one of the theories flying around. This guy was essentially on a hit list. If you can get the opportunity to take him out, he has always been one of the major targets. And it's "}
{"id": "942108601", "date": "2020-12-03", "guest": "Eric Schmitt", "title": "How National Security Could Be Upended In The Waning Days Of The Trump Presidency", "question_index": 13, "text": "Tell us a little bit about his replacement, Christopher Miller. Is he a Trump loyalist?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, clearly, that's one of the key moments where the relations between Esper and the president, which were never great to begin with - I mean, they weren't bad, but they weren't terrific - that's wh"}
{"id": "942108601", "date": "2020-12-03", "guest": "Eric Schmitt", "title": "How National Security Could Be Upended In The Waning Days Of The Trump Presidency", "question_index": 14, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Eric Schmitt, a senior writer covering terrorism and national security for The New York Times. We're going to take a short break, and then we'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Christopher Miller, who is the acting secretary of defense, is a longtime former Army Green Beret who served in the initial days of the Iraq War and of the Afghanistan War and really made his mark "}
{"id": "942108601", "date": "2020-12-03", "guest": "Eric Schmitt", "title": "How National Security Could Be Upended In The Waning Days Of The Trump Presidency", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Eric Schmitt, a senior writer covering terrorism and national security for The New York Times. We're talking about the actions President Trump has taken in the days since the election and how those actions may affect our national security and the incoming Biden administration's plans. Trump has conducted a purge of top officials at the Defense Department, including Defense Secretary Mark Esper. Let's talk about the purge in the Pentagon, and let's start with someone who was fired this week, Christopher Maier, who was the head of the Pentagon's defeat-ISIS task force. The premise for firing him was, well, we've already won the war against ISIS, so who needs this task force anymore? Did we win it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Christopher Miller, who is the acting secretary of defense, is a longtime former Army Green Beret who served in the initial days of the Iraq War and of the Afghanistan War and really made his mark "}
{"id": "942108601", "date": "2020-12-03", "guest": "Eric Schmitt", "title": "How National Security Could Be Upended In The Waning Days Of The Trump Presidency", "question_index": 16, "text": "If this task force was a clearinghouse for the government's counterterrorism operations and policies and now this task force no longer exists 'cause it was disbanded when Maier was fired, what happens next? I mean, you write that Maier's duties are going to be folded into two other offices that deal with special operations and regional policies. But those two offices are led by two of the people Trump promoted to positions in the Defense Department during the purge when he replaced people he fired. And those people are loyalists to Trump. So what are the implications for Biden getting access to the information that he needs? And what are the larger implications of these loyalists now having control over the information that used to be in this task force?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, again, this has been one of the president's big selling points, is that he has led the defeat of the Islamic State. Actually, what happened was he inherited a campaign from the Obama administrat"}
{"id": "942108601", "date": "2020-12-03", "guest": "Eric Schmitt", "title": "How National Security Could Be Upended In The Waning Days Of The Trump Presidency", "question_index": 17, "text": "Are there things that the loyalists who are now taking control over this information - are there concerns that they could keep some of the information secret if it could be damning in any way of how Trump has conducted himself or of secret policies?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'll give you what some of the Biden people who I've spoken to fear, is that they're now going to get more of a spin or a Trump bias on some of these operations than they would have from what wa"}
{"id": "942108601", "date": "2020-12-03", "guest": "Eric Schmitt", "title": "How National Security Could Be Upended In The Waning Days Of The Trump Presidency", "question_index": 18, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Eric Schmitt, a senior writer covering terrorism and national security for The New York Times. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's always that possibility, Terry. I think the other problem they face is just some of the underlying assumptions they would present to the incoming team about, for instance, why are they drawing"}
{"id": "942108601", "date": "2020-12-03", "guest": "Eric Schmitt", "title": "How National Security Could Be Upended In The Waning Days Of The Trump Presidency", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with Eric Schmitt, a senior writer covering terrorism and national security for The New York Times. We're talking about the actions President Trump has taken in the days since the election and how those actions may affect our national security and the incoming Biden administration's plans. So let's talk about the two people who had the offices that are now inheriting all of the information that had been with that defeat-ISIS task force. You've written about Anthony Tata. What's his position now? Who is he?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's always that possibility, Terry. I think the other problem they face is just some of the underlying assumptions they would present to the incoming team about, for instance, why are they drawing"}
{"id": "942108601", "date": "2020-12-03", "guest": "Eric Schmitt", "title": "How National Security Could Be Upended In The Waning Days Of The Trump Presidency", "question_index": 20, "text": "So to sum up, the Biden administration will be getting some of its information about terrorism from somebody who called President Obama a terrorist leader.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Anthony Tata is a retired one-star Army general who actually had been nominated to be the Pentagon's top policy official, but his formal nomination was basically doomed, was sidetracked, after senator"}
{"id": "942108601", "date": "2020-12-03", "guest": "Eric Schmitt", "title": "How National Security Could Be Upended In The Waning Days Of The Trump Presidency", "question_index": 21, "text": "And so since he didn't get confirmed as undersecretary of defense, he now has the title senior official performing the duties of the undersecretary of defense for policy. That's quite a workaround.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it could end up that way. Now, of course, you know, it depends on where they draw this information from. But he is now - all these officials that were part of this task force and who may now sti"}
{"id": "942108601", "date": "2020-12-03", "guest": "Eric Schmitt", "title": "How National Security Could Be Upended In The Waning Days Of The Trump Presidency", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's called Washington gobbledygook."}
{"id": "942108601", "date": "2020-12-03", "guest": "Eric Schmitt", "title": "How National Security Could Be Upended In The Waning Days Of The Trump Presidency", "question_index": 23, "text": "So we'd been talking about how the defeat-ISIS task force was a clearinghouse for information about terrorism and counterterrorism. And now that that task force has been disbanded, two offices have inherited that information. One of them is headed by Anthony Tata, who I've just been talking about. The other office is headed by Ezra Cohen-Watnick, another Trump loyalist who replaced one of the Pentagon officials during the recent purge. So who is Ezra Cohen-Watnick?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, and that's - there are a lot of those kind of officials floating around not just the Pentagon, but in other agencies because what's happened is people have left and the administration hasn't bee"}
{"id": "942108601", "date": "2020-12-03", "guest": "Eric Schmitt", "title": "How National Security Could Be Upended In The Waning Days Of The Trump Presidency", "question_index": 24, "text": "So let's go back to Ezra Cohen-Watnick, one of the people - one of the Trump loyalists who replaced one of the people purged in the Pentagon. So one of the things he did, as you discussed, he compiled intelligence reports about the federal investigation of the 2016 Trump campaign and other officials and then provided the materials - I don't know if he provided them directly to Nunes. I think the reporting says that he provided them to someone else who gave it to Nunes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Ezra Cohen-Watnick is somebody - he's 34 and was kind of a little-known officer at the Defense Intelligence Agency before he gained attention in early 2017, when he was kind of plucked to serve on "}
{"id": "942108601", "date": "2020-12-03", "guest": "Eric Schmitt", "title": "How National Security Could Be Upended In The Waning Days Of The Trump Presidency", "question_index": 25, "text": "So you think he gave them to someone who gave them to Nunes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He helped compile them. I don't think he gave them to them."}
{"id": "942108601", "date": "2020-12-03", "guest": "Eric Schmitt", "title": "How National Security Could Be Upended In The Waning Days Of The Trump Presidency", "question_index": 26, "text": "And this was the time when Nunes, who is a Republican congressman from California, was heading the House Intelligence Committee. And Nunes seemed very much to be on Trump's side. And Nunes wanted to prove that the Obama administration actually spied on the Trump administration, and that was the real problem - not Russia collaboration or collusion or cooperation with the Trump campaign in 2016. So does that tell you anything about Trump's possible agenda in putting Ezra Cohen-Watnick in a higher position, the fact that he had access to information that Trump thought could help prove that the Obama administration spied on his campaign?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's kind of our understanding now."}
{"id": "942108601", "date": "2020-12-03", "guest": "Eric Schmitt", "title": "How National Security Could Be Upended In The Waning Days Of The Trump Presidency", "question_index": 27, "text": "OK, let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Eric Schmitt, a senior writer covering terrorism and national security for The New York Times. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, again, this is what - critics of Mr. Cohen-Watnick accused him of being one of the big conspiracy theorists within the administration, and this is - kind of points to this as evidence that this "}
{"id": "942108601", "date": "2020-12-03", "guest": "Eric Schmitt", "title": "How National Security Could Be Upended In The Waning Days Of The Trump Presidency", "question_index": 28, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Eric Schmitt, a senior writer covering terrorism and national security for The Times. We're talking about actions President Trump has taken in the days since the election and how those actions may affect our national security and the incoming Biden administration's plans. Attorney General William Barr this week promoted John Durham to the position of special counsel. That's the title Robert Mueller had. So Durham is going to continue his investigation into the origins of the investigation into ties between Russia and the 2016 Trump campaign, but now he's going to be doing it as special counsel. So what are the implications of that for the incoming Biden administration?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, again, this is what - critics of Mr. Cohen-Watnick accused him of being one of the big conspiracy theorists within the administration, and this is - kind of points to this as evidence that this "}
{"id": "942108601", "date": "2020-12-03", "guest": "Eric Schmitt", "title": "How National Security Could Be Upended In The Waning Days Of The Trump Presidency", "question_index": 29, "text": "So there seems to be a pattern in some of these promotions and title changes that Trump is empowering people who have worked to discredit the investigation into ties between the Trump campaign and Russia in 2016. It's as if his - you know, one of his, you know, parting gestures is to continue to discredit that investigation and to try to say, I did nothing wrong.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it means that with this new position that Durham has, it's very difficult politically for President Biden to remove Durham. The special counsel now has powers that he can remain after the Trump "}
{"id": "942108601", "date": "2020-12-03", "guest": "Eric Schmitt", "title": "How National Security Could Be Upended In The Waning Days Of The Trump Presidency", "question_index": 30, "text": "What kind of contracts? Is one of them, too, that in addition to contracts that would lead or cement in policies, there could be contracts that Trump would want to sign as favors to friends and loyalists?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that certainly is the appearance here. And, obviously, somebody like Mr. Durham would be in a position to carry that out with this investigation. It's going to be more difficult to follow throug"}
{"id": "942108601", "date": "2020-12-03", "guest": "Eric Schmitt", "title": "How National Security Could Be Upended In The Waning Days Of The Trump Presidency", "question_index": 31, "text": "Since there are concerns within the military and within the Defense Department that Trump might try to attack Iran, which could lead to a war with Iran - and, you know, Trump also can start a nuclear war if he wanted to. I'm not saying that that's on his agenda, but he has the capability of it. Are there concerns within the military and the Pentagon about what would happen if they get an order that they think is incredibly misguided and very dangerous?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, again, that's, again, something that we're looking into, whether it's with rushing through arms sales to various countries. There was just a big arms sale to the Saudis announced this week, for "}
{"id": "942108601", "date": "2020-12-03", "guest": "Eric Schmitt", "title": "How National Security Could Be Upended In The Waning Days Of The Trump Presidency", "question_index": 32, "text": "Eric Schmitt, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we've been told there have been these kind of internal discussions among the Joint Chiefs about what to do. They, of course, are obligated to carry out lawful orders, not unlawful orders. So it "}
{"id": "942108601", "date": "2020-12-03", "guest": "Eric Schmitt", "title": "How National Security Could Be Upended In The Waning Days Of The Trump Presidency", "question_index": 33, "text": "Eric Schmitt is a senior writer at The New York Times covering terrorism and national security. Our interview was recorded yesterday.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "942108601", "date": "2020-12-03", "guest": "Eric Schmitt", "title": "How National Security Could Be Upended In The Waning Days Of The Trump Presidency", "question_index": 34, "text": "If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed - like our interview with Hugh Grant, who stars with Nicole Kidman in the HBO Limited series \"The Undoing,\" or with singer and songwriter Loudon Wainwright and bandleader and tuba and bass player Vince Giordano, who teamed up on a new album of music from the 1920s and '30s - check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Kayla Lattimore. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Therese Madden directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "942949661", "date": "2020-12-04", "guest": "Dave Brubeck", "title": "Celebrating The Life And Music Of Jazz Pianist And Composer Dave Brubeck", "question_index": 0, "text": "Dave Brubeck, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies in for Terry Gross. Today, we celebrate the life and music of Dave Brubeck, the influential jazz pianist and composer. This Sunday marks the centennial of his birth."}
{"id": "942949661", "date": "2020-12-04", "guest": "Dave Brubeck", "title": "Celebrating The Life And Music Of Jazz Pianist And Composer Dave Brubeck", "question_index": 1, "text": "Now, you grew up in Concord, Calif. Your mother was a classical piano teacher. Did she give you lessons?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "942949661", "date": "2020-12-04", "guest": "Dave Brubeck", "title": "Celebrating The Life And Music Of Jazz Pianist And Composer Dave Brubeck", "question_index": 2, "text": "Was it hard to study with your mother?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I had two older brothers, Henry and Howard, that also took lessons from my mother. And half the community - the people interested in piano - studied with her."}
{"id": "942949661", "date": "2020-12-04", "guest": "Dave Brubeck", "title": "Celebrating The Life And Music Of Jazz Pianist And Composer Dave Brubeck", "question_index": 3, "text": "How? And why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It wasn't so bad for my brothers, but I kind of rebelled."}
{"id": "942949661", "date": "2020-12-04", "guest": "Dave Brubeck", "title": "Celebrating The Life And Music Of Jazz Pianist And Composer Dave Brubeck", "question_index": 4, "text": "Oh, in the hope that you'd be a help on the ranch.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "How, and why? I wanted to be like my father, who was a cattleman and a rodeo roper. And that - he was my hero, and I wanted to be more like him. So my mother allowed me to stop taking lessons when I w"}
{"id": "942949661", "date": "2020-12-04", "guest": "Dave Brubeck", "title": "Celebrating The Life And Music Of Jazz Pianist And Composer Dave Brubeck", "question_index": 5, "text": "You know, I'm used to seeing you behind the piano. It's hard for me to imagine you as a cowboy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, so I could - that - I had to go to college, according to my mother, like my brothers. I didn't ever want to leave my dad or my dad's ranch. My dad was the manager at the 45,000-acre ranch, but h"}
{"id": "942949661", "date": "2020-12-04", "guest": "Dave Brubeck", "title": "Celebrating The Life And Music Of Jazz Pianist And Composer Dave Brubeck", "question_index": 6, "text": "Did you sing cowboy songs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And there even are some - what we call movies in those days, some of the very first kind of home movies where I'm with my dad lassoing and branding and - big roundup. So it's - it is documented."}
{"id": "942949661", "date": "2020-12-04", "guest": "Dave Brubeck", "title": "Celebrating The Life And Music Of Jazz Pianist And Composer Dave Brubeck", "question_index": 7, "text": "Did you like singing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All of them, yeah, when they were real cowboy songs like \"Strawberry Roan\" and \"Little Joe, The Wrangler\" - tunes that people don't sing anymore. I love those songs. The words can still make me cry. A"}
{"id": "942949661", "date": "2020-12-04", "guest": "Dave Brubeck", "title": "Celebrating The Life And Music Of Jazz Pianist And Composer Dave Brubeck", "question_index": 8, "text": "Ukulele - no, wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "942949661", "date": "2020-12-04", "guest": "Dave Brubeck", "title": "Celebrating The Life And Music Of Jazz Pianist And Composer Dave Brubeck", "question_index": 9, "text": "Let me get back to what we were talking about, which is life on the cattle ranch. And there were two cattle ranches in your life, the one your father owned and the larger one that he managed. Did you have really strong arms and hands from the work, and do you think that that helped you as a piano player?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Some of my friends played guitar, cowboy songs. Yeah."}
{"id": "942949661", "date": "2020-12-04", "guest": "Dave Brubeck", "title": "Celebrating The Life And Music Of Jazz Pianist And Composer Dave Brubeck", "question_index": 10, "text": "Was your mother convinced that you were going to become a pianist? Or she was just worried about your fingers on general principles.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It didn't hurt. My mother would not allow my dad to have me rope anything larger than a yearling because she didn't want my fingers to become hurt. And my uncle, who was also a rodeo roper, got his fi"}
{"id": "942949661", "date": "2020-12-04", "guest": "Dave Brubeck", "title": "Celebrating The Life And Music Of Jazz Pianist And Composer Dave Brubeck", "question_index": 11, "text": "Mmm hmm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she thought that I had a certain amount of talent that I was not developing. And so after my first year as a veterinary pre-med, I switched to the music department, which was across the lawn."}
{"id": "942949661", "date": "2020-12-04", "guest": "Dave Brubeck", "title": "Celebrating The Life And Music Of Jazz Pianist And Composer Dave Brubeck", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that was at the advice of my zoology teacher, Dr. Arnold."}
{"id": "942949661", "date": "2020-12-04", "guest": "Dave Brubeck", "title": "Celebrating The Life And Music Of Jazz Pianist And Composer Dave Brubeck", "question_index": 13, "text": "How did he know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He said, Brubeck, your mind is not here with these frogs in the formaldehyde; your mind's across the lawn at the conservatory. Will you please go over there next year?"}
{"id": "942949661", "date": "2020-12-04", "guest": "Dave Brubeck", "title": "Celebrating The Life And Music Of Jazz Pianist And Composer Dave Brubeck", "question_index": 14, "text": "Now, I think in spite of the fact that you studied piano with your mother as a boy, you weren't very good at reading music. How well could you read when you started majoring in music in college?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He - I guess he'd just seen me become kind of blank and be listening to the - everybody practicing and the music and drifting away from what he was trying to teach me."}
{"id": "942949661", "date": "2020-12-04", "guest": "Dave Brubeck", "title": "Celebrating The Life And Music Of Jazz Pianist And Composer Dave Brubeck", "question_index": 15, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I couldn't read, and that caused a lot of trouble in the conservatory, so I hid it until I was a senior by not taking piano. I'd take - the other instruments were cello and clarinet, and so the - I wa"}
{"id": "942949661", "date": "2020-12-04", "guest": "Dave Brubeck", "title": "Celebrating The Life And Music Of Jazz Pianist And Composer Dave Brubeck", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, you know, I thought we might pause here and listen to another recently re-released recording. And this features you with the great singer Jimmy Rushing. Now, you haven't done a lot of work with singers over the years, at least not that I'm aware of. Tell me how you managed to do this session with Jimmy Rushing, who had sung with Basie. And he's considered a great blues singer. But he's also a great singer of swing tunes and standards.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "other things for not being able to read well. But I can write, which is something very few people understand."}
{"id": "942949661", "date": "2020-12-04", "guest": "Dave Brubeck", "title": "Celebrating The Life And Music Of Jazz Pianist And Composer Dave Brubeck", "question_index": 17, "text": "Well, why don't we hear you and Jimmy Rushing doing \"There'll Be Some Changes Made.\" And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was on tour with Jimmy in England. And we had to take the train together to the next city. So we were riding in the train for about three hours. And he said, Dave, I want to do an album with you. An"}
{"id": "942949661", "date": "2020-12-04", "guest": "Dave Brubeck", "title": "Celebrating The Life And Music Of Jazz Pianist And Composer Dave Brubeck", "question_index": 18, "text": "You like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh."}
{"id": "942949661", "date": "2020-12-04", "guest": "Dave Brubeck", "title": "Celebrating The Life And Music Of Jazz Pianist And Composer Dave Brubeck", "question_index": 19, "text": "Yeah, so do I. And this is from the recently re-issued 1960 recording \"Brubeck & Rushing,\" the Dave Brubeck Quartet featuring Jimmy Rushing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "942949661", "date": "2020-12-04", "guest": "Dave Brubeck", "title": "Celebrating The Life And Music Of Jazz Pianist And Composer Dave Brubeck", "question_index": 20, "text": "THE DAVE BRUBECK", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "942949661", "date": "2020-12-04", "guest": "Dave Brubeck", "title": "Celebrating The Life And Music Of Jazz Pianist And Composer Dave Brubeck", "question_index": 21, "text": "Moving along with the story of your life", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're listening to Terry's interview with Dave Brubeck recorded in 1999. Sunday marks the centennial of Brubeck's birth."}
{"id": "942949661", "date": "2020-12-04", "guest": "Dave Brubeck", "title": "Celebrating The Life And Music Of Jazz Pianist And Composer Dave Brubeck", "question_index": 22, "text": "- you were in the army, I think, toward the end of World War II. Did you see combat?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're listening to Terry's interview with Dave Brubeck recorded in 1999. Sunday marks the centennial of Brubeck's birth."}
{"id": "942949661", "date": "2020-12-04", "guest": "Dave Brubeck", "title": "Celebrating The Life And Music Of Jazz Pianist And Composer Dave Brubeck", "question_index": 23, "text": "OK. Didn't participate, huh?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I saw it."}
{"id": "942949661", "date": "2020-12-04", "guest": "Dave Brubeck", "title": "Celebrating The Life And Music Of Jazz Pianist And Composer Dave Brubeck", "question_index": 24, "text": "How did you end up in German territory?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I avoided participation. But, you know, I was in the Battle of the Bulge. And I was on the wrong side of the lines. I was in German territory and had to come..."}
{"id": "942949661", "date": "2020-12-04", "guest": "Dave Brubeck", "title": "Celebrating The Life And Music Of Jazz Pianist And Composer Dave Brubeck", "question_index": 25, "text": "After the war was over, you went back to college on the GI Bill. And I think it was then that you studied with the French composer Darius Milhaud. Had you known Milhaud's work very well?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We didn't know where we were. And everything was going wrong. And so the truck driver just took the wrong turn. And I was up there to play a show for the frontline troops with my band, which were all "}
{"id": "942949661", "date": "2020-12-04", "guest": "Dave Brubeck", "title": "Celebrating The Life And Music Of Jazz Pianist And Composer Dave Brubeck", "question_index": 26, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my brother was his assistant - Howard."}
{"id": "942949661", "date": "2020-12-04", "guest": "Dave Brubeck", "title": "Celebrating The Life And Music Of Jazz Pianist And Composer Dave Brubeck", "question_index": 27, "text": "And were you expecting then to write classical music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And just before I went into the Army, I went to see Milhaud and ask him if, when I got out, I could come back and study with him. And he said I could. So that's exactly what I did on the GI Bill. I we"}
{"id": "942949661", "date": "2020-12-04", "guest": "Dave Brubeck", "title": "Celebrating The Life And Music Of Jazz Pianist And Composer Dave Brubeck", "question_index": 28, "text": "So it sounds like he gave you some good advice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "942949661", "date": "2020-12-04", "guest": "Dave Brubeck", "title": "Celebrating The Life And Music Of Jazz Pianist And Composer Dave Brubeck", "question_index": 29, "text": "Well, I want to play a 1956 recording. And this is your recording of \"The Duke,\" which you've described as your tribute to both Duke Ellington and Darius Milhaud.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. He said travel the world. Keep your ears open. Bring back everything you hear. Put it in the jazz in you. And that's what I did. I still follow his advice."}
{"id": "942949661", "date": "2020-12-04", "guest": "Dave Brubeck", "title": "Celebrating The Life And Music Of Jazz Pianist And Composer Dave Brubeck", "question_index": 30, "text": "And Ellington also, you know, was wonderful at connecting classical form and jazz. You want to say anything else about this composition before we hear it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "942949661", "date": "2020-12-04", "guest": "Dave Brubeck", "title": "Celebrating The Life And Music Of Jazz Pianist And Composer Dave Brubeck", "question_index": 31, "text": "Let's hear it. This is \"The Duke,\" composed and performed by my guest, Dave Brubeck.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it is one of my favorite compositions. And the second theme is where I use Milhaud kind of influences with polytonality, which wasn't being done too much in early jazz. It was being done some. B"}
{"id": "942949661", "date": "2020-12-04", "guest": "Dave Brubeck", "title": "Celebrating The Life And Music Of Jazz Pianist And Composer Dave Brubeck", "question_index": 32, "text": "The recording we just heard was released 45 years ago, which was the same year that you were on the cover of Time magazine. What was the impact of this recording, \"Brubeck Time,\" on your career?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. We're remembering jazz pianist and composer Dave Brubeck. He was born 100 years ago this Sunday. Brubeck died in 2012 on the eve of his 92nd bir"}
{"id": "942949661", "date": "2020-12-04", "guest": "Dave Brubeck", "title": "Celebrating The Life And Music Of Jazz Pianist And Composer Dave Brubeck", "question_index": 33, "text": "Now, how is the recording \"Brubeck Time\" different from your previous recordings?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's a wonderful time in my life because we had been struggling for years to get to be more known. And as you mentioned, the cover of Time magazine was really something that helped us a lot. But"}
{"id": "942949661", "date": "2020-12-04", "guest": "Dave Brubeck", "title": "Celebrating The Life And Music Of Jazz Pianist And Composer Dave Brubeck", "question_index": 34, "text": "Now, your first record that I think really made an impression on the record buying public - I mean, it got bought a lot - was \"Jazz Goes To College.\" And it was sessions recorded at three different colleges.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, at that time I was starting to do different time signatures, but the record companies were kind of leery of getting out of the usual dance tempos that were mostly 4/4 and an occasional waltz. So"}
{"id": "942949661", "date": "2020-12-04", "guest": "Dave Brubeck", "title": "Celebrating The Life And Music Of Jazz Pianist And Composer Dave Brubeck", "question_index": 35, "text": "And, you know, there's a picture of you on it. You're wearing your glasses. And those glasses were really such a part of your image. And I think in part because that record was \"Jazz Goes To College\" and in part because of those kind of thick plastic glasses, you maybe had the image of being what was known in those days as an egghead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "942949661", "date": "2020-12-04", "guest": "Dave Brubeck", "title": "Celebrating The Life And Music Of Jazz Pianist And Composer Dave Brubeck", "question_index": 36, "text": "The problem was that you were white or that one of the musicians in the band was Black?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wish I had. I'm not that smart. But people forget that at the same time, we had a huge following at places like the Apollo Theater, the Howard Theater in Washington and the universities that they us"}
{"id": "942949661", "date": "2020-12-04", "guest": "Dave Brubeck", "title": "Celebrating The Life And Music Of Jazz Pianist And Composer Dave Brubeck", "question_index": 37, "text": "So that was the problem.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Eugene Wright was Black, yeah."}
{"id": "942949661", "date": "2020-12-04", "guest": "Dave Brubeck", "title": "Celebrating The Life And Music Of Jazz Pianist And Composer Dave Brubeck", "question_index": 38, "text": "Let me play what might be the most famous of the Brubeck Quartet recordings, and that's \"Take Five,\" which you recorded in 1959. Would you talk about this composition? It's a Desmond composition, but I think you worked with him on it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We couldn't do some television shows because in those days, you couldn't have Black and white together. One show I had to turn down Duke Ellington took because he - at the moment, he had an all-Black "}
{"id": "942949661", "date": "2020-12-04", "guest": "Dave Brubeck", "title": "Celebrating The Life And Music Of Jazz Pianist And Composer Dave Brubeck", "question_index": 39, "text": "Well, before we hear it, I want to thank you very much for talking with us about your early career. It's really been a pleasure. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Paul has done a radio show in Canada before he died where he said, I'm so fortunate that Dave assigned me to do the section in 5/4 because that was the one track I wanted Paul to do as a solo fo"}
{"id": "944213354", "date": "2020-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Remembering Chuck Yeager, Pilot Who Broke The Sound Barrier", "question_index": 0, "text": "So what image did you have in your mind about breaking the sound barrier? For civilians like us, you almost see this invisible shield or a wall that somebody will be penetrating as they break it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. I knew the laws of nature, that sound travels at some 760 miles an hour at sea level and some 660 miles an hour at 35,000 feet higher. I also knew we had buffeting problems because of shock wave"}
{"id": "944213354", "date": "2020-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Remembering Chuck Yeager, Pilot Who Broke The Sound Barrier", "question_index": 1, "text": "The plane that you broke the sound barrier in, the X-1, had a nose cone that was designed like a bullet. How come?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I didn't, you know, give any thought to it, to tell you the truth, Terry, because I was pretty well duty-oriented at that time. I'd been in a war where, you know, a lot of guys get killed, but I"}
{"id": "944213354", "date": "2020-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Remembering Chuck Yeager, Pilot Who Broke The Sound Barrier", "question_index": 2, "text": "Was it comfortable where you'd have to sit in...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, because they knew that bullets flew faster than sound. And the ogive or shape of the fuselage of the X-1 was shaped like a 50-caliber bullet. And that's just common sense because, like I say, we"}
{"id": "944213354", "date": "2020-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Remembering Chuck Yeager, Pilot Who Broke The Sound Barrier", "question_index": 3, "text": "When you were flying it, what indications would you have? What kind of meters would tell you when you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no, it was very uncomfortable. And the reason was we had no source of power in the X-1. We used compressed nitrogen gas to do all the work, like raise and lower the gear and pressurize the liqui"}
{"id": "944213354", "date": "2020-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Remembering Chuck Yeager, Pilot Who Broke The Sound Barrier", "question_index": 4, "text": "...Had actually broken the sound barrier?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "944213354", "date": "2020-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Remembering Chuck Yeager, Pilot Who Broke The Sound Barrier", "question_index": 5, "text": "Could you hear the sonic boom from the plane?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had an altimeter told me how high I was. I had an indicated air speed, and that told me how fast I was going through the air in miles per hour. But the one thing that we relied on was a Mach m"}
{"id": "944213354", "date": "2020-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Remembering Chuck Yeager, Pilot Who Broke The Sound Barrier", "question_index": 6, "text": "When you realized that you'd broken the speed of sound, that your mission was accomplished, did you stay up in the air a while and just have a good time and celebrate?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No. You're in the airplane, which is in a pressurized cockpit. And you get a helmet on and oxygen mask and - and no, you're making the shockwave. It's on your airplane. And you don't hear a shock "}
{"id": "944213354", "date": "2020-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Remembering Chuck Yeager, Pilot Who Broke The Sound Barrier", "question_index": 7, "text": "What were the reasons for classifying it? Why was it so top secret?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't - no, you can't stay up because - see - a rocket - you burn out all of your fuel. It only had - last 2 1/2 minutes. And then you're gliding down to make a deadstick landing on Rogers Dry Lake"}
{"id": "944213354", "date": "2020-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Remembering Chuck Yeager, Pilot Who Broke The Sound Barrier", "question_index": 8, "text": "Now, this is - this is a very exciting time, when you were flying these test missions. You had a few close calls, though, when you were flying the X-1 and the X-1A. There was one time - I think it was in the X-1A, which was the follow-up plane to the X-1 - where you had gotten too high and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because of what we found out. And the reason was, if you recall, once we got into the region of the speed of sound, we lost our elevator effectiveness. Terry, this may get a little technical, but all "}
{"id": "944213354", "date": "2020-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Actor", "title": "Remembering Chuck Yeager, Pilot Who Broke The Sound Barrier", "question_index": 9, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "944586352", "date": "2020-12-09", "guest": "Brittany Barnett", "title": "Lawyer Combats America's 'Huge Crisis' Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Another step in the retreat from the war on drugs was taken Friday when the House of Representatives voted to decriminalize marijuana and expunge federal marijuana convictions dating back to 1971. The bill is considered unlikely to pass the Senate. My guest, Brittany Barnett, is a lawyer who has been fighting for people serving life sentences without parole or other harsh sentences because of the mandatory minimum sentences legislated as part of the war on drugs. Her clients were convicted of nonviolent drug crimes on flimsy evidence and given sentences that have since been deemed unfair and unconstitutional. She secured freedom for dozens of men and women who were sentenced to life. She got involved with this work because her mother, who became addicted to crack, was sent to jail when Barnett was in ninth grade and then later served two years in the Texas state prison system when Barnett was in her early 20s. Seven of Brittany Barnett's clients were granted clemency by President Obama and two by President Trump. She also founded the programs Buried Alive, which works to free people left in prison under outdated Reagan-era laws, and Girls Embracing Mothers, which brings girls to prison to visit their incarcerated mothers and helps mentor those girls. Barnett has written a new memoir titled \"A Knock At Midnight.\" It's about her work and about her early life growing up in east Texas, where many people she knew were sent to prison. Brittany Barnett, welcome to FRESH AIR. And congratulations on your book. Your first client was Sharanda Jones. And you found her when you were a law student. You were writing a paper and wanted to make your case about people serving these mandatory minimum life sentences. So you Googled - what did you Google, woman, prison", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "944586352", "date": "2020-12-09", "guest": "Brittany Barnett", "title": "Lawyer Combats America's 'Huge Crisis' Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 1, "text": ", life sentence?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "944586352", "date": "2020-12-09", "guest": "Brittany Barnett", "title": "Lawyer Combats America's 'Huge Crisis' Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 2, "text": "And she's the one who came up. And she's one of the people that you got clemency for. She's out. She's free. It was a very, very long process, started when you were a law student. So explain the charges that she was serving a life sentence for.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I Googled woman, prison, life sentence."}
{"id": "944586352", "date": "2020-12-09", "guest": "Brittany Barnett", "title": "Lawyer Combats America's 'Huge Crisis' Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 3, "text": "She was told by her lawyer that she had a great case and there was basically no way she was going to jail. So she was misled about that - not intentionally misled, but still misled. Had she not gone to trial, do you think she would have given a lesser sentence, like if she copped a plea?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sharanda Jones was set to spend the rest of her natural life in prison for her first ever conviction, felony or otherwise, for federal drug conspiracy. And Sharanda Jones accepts responsibility. She p"}
{"id": "944586352", "date": "2020-12-09", "guest": "Brittany Barnett", "title": "Lawyer Combats America's 'Huge Crisis' Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 4, "text": "Sharanda Jones' mother was in prison, charged with the same conspiracy. On what grounds? Her mother was paraplegic.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do. I feel if Sharanda Jones had accepted a plea deal, there's no way she would have received a life sentence in this case. Sharanda Jones' trial lawyer had never tried a federal drug case before. A"}
{"id": "944586352", "date": "2020-12-09", "guest": "Brittany Barnett", "title": "Lawyer Combats America's 'Huge Crisis' Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 5, "text": "You managed to get clemency for her from President Obama. Tell us a little bit about what the clemency process is like. What do you have to do? You, basically, have to apply for it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's mind-blowing. Her mother was sent to prison for the same charge as Sharanda Jones. Essentially, I feel her mother was sent to prison because she refused to give up any information on her kids or "}
{"id": "944586352", "date": "2020-12-09", "guest": "Brittany Barnett", "title": "Lawyer Combats America's 'Huge Crisis' Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 6, "text": "How do you get the notification that your clemency request has been approved?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So clemency, to me, is where justice meets mercy. And as I was working on Sharanda's case, I kept trying to find these avenues to get her free and just had to be real with myself, Terry, that th"}
{"id": "944586352", "date": "2020-12-09", "guest": "Brittany Barnett", "title": "Lawyer Combats America's 'Huge Crisis' Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 7, "text": "And what was it like when you got the call about Sharanda Jones?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You get notified by a call from an attorney in the Office of the Pardon Attorney's office."}
{"id": "944586352", "date": "2020-12-09", "guest": "Brittany Barnett", "title": "Lawyer Combats America's 'Huge Crisis' Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 8, "text": "How many years had she been in prison?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It is a day and time I will never forget. You don't get a heads-up for this call. And at the time, Sharanda Jones' clemency petition had been pending for two years - two years of ups and downs, high"}
{"id": "944586352", "date": "2020-12-09", "guest": "Brittany Barnett", "title": "Lawyer Combats America's 'Huge Crisis' Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 9, "text": "And then you called her. What was her reaction?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sharada had been in prison for 16 years and nine months when we received the news that she was going to be immediately released."}
{"id": "944586352", "date": "2020-12-09", "guest": "Brittany Barnett", "title": "Lawyer Combats America's 'Huge Crisis' Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 10, "text": "Sharanda's mother died in prison of a staph infection after a surgery, and Sharanda was devastated after that. So her mother was not alive to know that Sharanda received clemency.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She had no idea what the call was about. And many times when you're in prison and you get an unexpected call where you have to go to your counselor's office for the call, many times people in prison a"}
{"id": "944586352", "date": "2020-12-09", "guest": "Brittany Barnett", "title": "Lawyer Combats America's 'Huge Crisis' Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 11, "text": "What is Sharanda doing now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was not. Her mother was not around. You know, Sharanda and her mother served 12 years together in prison at Carswell Medical Center in Fort Worth, Texas. And to be incarcerated with your mother is"}
{"id": "944586352", "date": "2020-12-09", "guest": "Brittany Barnett", "title": "Lawyer Combats America's 'Huge Crisis' Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sharanda, of course, is spreading joy to everyone that she encounters. She is such a soulful person, and her smile will brighten any room. Sharanda has always had a passion for cooking. She owned her "}
{"id": "944586352", "date": "2020-12-09", "guest": "Brittany Barnett", "title": "Lawyer Combats America's 'Huge Crisis' Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 13, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Brittany Barnett. Her new memoir is called \"A Knock At Midnight.\" We'll be right back after this break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "and a play on just being fed up with the system. But you will truly have your belly fed with some amazing food."}
{"id": "944586352", "date": "2020-12-09", "guest": "Brittany Barnett", "title": "Lawyer Combats America's 'Huge Crisis' Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. If you're just joining us, my guest is Brittany Barnett, a lawyer who has been fighting for people serving life sentences without parole or other harsh sentences because of the mandatory minimum sentences legislated as part of the war on drugs. Her clients were convicted of nonviolent crimes on flimsy evidence and given sentences that have since been deemed unfair and unconstitutional. She's responsible for the release of dozens of people. You know, we were talking about Sharanda Jones and how she was given clemency by President Obama, who had a whole clemency initiative for people sentenced under mandatory minimums who wouldn't have gotten these sentences today. President Trump also granted clemency to two of your clients. One of them was Alice Johnson, who you became aware of because she was a good friend of Sharanda Jones in prison, and Sharanda, when she got out, said, you got to free Alice Johnson. So you took on her case. The way it got to President Trump was through Kim Kardashian West, who took the case to President Trump by contacting Ivanka Trump first. I'm sure you're so grateful to Kim Kardashian West and President Trump, but I'm just wondering if you're ambivalent about the power of celebrity being able to get clemency for someone when somebody else who is also in a similar situation wouldn't have that opportunity because there's no celebrity who went to bat for them. And you have clients in that position.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "and a play on just being fed up with the system. But you will truly have your belly fed with some amazing food."}
{"id": "944586352", "date": "2020-12-09", "guest": "Brittany Barnett", "title": "Lawyer Combats America's 'Huge Crisis' Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 15, "text": "Yeah. And I should mention, you were on a panel - I forget what the group was called, but it was a panel, like, reviewing cases, like the cases that you take on, people who are sentenced during the mandatory minimum era and are still in prison, even though those sentences are now considered unconstitutional. And you became aware just, like, how many people are in this situation. It's really overwhelming.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I do not think it should take a celebrity to be able to help free someone from prison. There is a huge problem this country is facing right now with this crisis of mass incarceration, and it shou"}
{"id": "944586352", "date": "2020-12-09", "guest": "Brittany Barnett", "title": "Lawyer Combats America's 'Huge Crisis' Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, let me introduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Brittany Barnett. Her new memoir is called \"A Knock At Midnight.\" We'll be back after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's so overwhelming. And, you know, this whole notion of criminal justice reform, if that's what people want to call it, it's popular now. It's fashionable. And many people are talking about it. It h"}
{"id": "944586352", "date": "2020-12-09", "guest": "Brittany Barnett", "title": "Lawyer Combats America's 'Huge Crisis' Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Brittany Barnett, a lawyer who has been fighting for people serving life sentences without parole because of the mandatory minimum sentences legislated as part of the war on drugs. Her clients were convicted of nonviolent drug crimes on flimsy evidence and given sentences that have since been deemed unfair and unconstitutional. She's responsible for freeing dozens of people. So you got into this work in part because of your mother, who became addicted to crack when you were around 10. And as you say, she served 2 1/2 years in prison. When she was addicted, how did you watch her personality and behavior change?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's so overwhelming. And, you know, this whole notion of criminal justice reform, if that's what people want to call it, it's popular now. It's fashionable. And many people are talking about it. It h"}
{"id": "944586352", "date": "2020-12-09", "guest": "Brittany Barnett", "title": "Lawyer Combats America's 'Huge Crisis' Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 18, "text": "So the first time your mother was arrested, you had to take a day off from school - you were a freshman in high school at the time - to go to her hearing. You went with your grandmother. Describe how your mother was brought out into the courtroom and what your reaction was.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Due to my mom being addicted to crack cocaine, there was a time in my childhood where life was an emotional roller coaster because of her addiction. There's something about being 10, Terry, and watchi"}
{"id": "944586352", "date": "2020-12-09", "guest": "Brittany Barnett", "title": "Lawyer Combats America's 'Huge Crisis' Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 19, "text": "You write that when one family member is in prison, the whole family is in prison. And you founded a group called Girls Embracing Mothers in which girls are funded to take long trips to visit their mothers in prison because it's sometimes like a two-, three-, four-hour car or bus trip to get there. And you founded this group because you experienced this firsthand, having to travel hours to see your mother, and it was very traumatizing for you to see her in those conditions. Set the scene for us a little bit when you were visiting your mother. I mean, even just getting into the prison to see her, what was that part like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I remember going to the courtroom in Red River County, Texas, where I'm from, and first having to walk past the statue of a Confederate soldier in the parking lot and climbing the steps to this courth"}
{"id": "944586352", "date": "2020-12-09", "guest": "Brittany Barnett", "title": "Lawyer Combats America's 'Huge Crisis' Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 20, "text": "When you first asked for your mother, you had to give her prison number as opposed to her name. What was it like for you to memorize her prison number, a number that you reprint in your memoir?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The entire process of visiting a loved one in prison is dehumanizing from the moment you drive onto the prison grounds. I remember the very first visit to my mom while she was in prison. And I couldn'"}
{"id": "944586352", "date": "2020-12-09", "guest": "Brittany Barnett", "title": "Lawyer Combats America's 'Huge Crisis' Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 21, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Brittney Barnett. Her new memoir is called \"A Knock At Midnight.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One-three-seven-four-six-seven-one - that's a seven-digit number I'll never forget, is the number assigned to my mother by the Texas Department of Criminal Justice when she began serving her prison se"}
{"id": "944586352", "date": "2020-12-09", "guest": "Brittany Barnett", "title": "Lawyer Combats America's 'Huge Crisis' Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Brittany Barnett, a lawyer who has been fighting for people serving life sentences without parole because of the mandatory minimum sentences legislated as part of the war on drugs. Her clients were convicted of nonviolent drug crimes, typically on flimsy evidence, and given sentences that have since been deemed unfair and unconstitutional, but not retroactive. She also writes in the book about her mother and her mother's addiction for drugs and her mother's incarceration. Your mother got sober in prison during those 2 1/2 years that she was in prison, and she's stayed sober since. She's back to being a nurse. Is she still active as a nurse?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One-three-seven-four-six-seven-one - that's a seven-digit number I'll never forget, is the number assigned to my mother by the Texas Department of Criminal Justice when she began serving her prison se"}
{"id": "944586352", "date": "2020-12-09", "guest": "Brittany Barnett", "title": "Lawyer Combats America's 'Huge Crisis' Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 23, "text": "That's great. Do you think that this is an argument that prison helped her break her addiction and resume a good life - a good, healthy life with a really good job helping other people, that - work, I'm sure, is fulfilling to her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, she actually works as a drug recovery nurse."}
{"id": "944586352", "date": "2020-12-09", "guest": "Brittany Barnett", "title": "Lawyer Combats America's 'Huge Crisis' Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 24, "text": "When you were growing up in East Texas, many of the people you knew were involved with selling drugs in one way or another, including your boyfriend. Why do you think - at the risk of asking a question that may be obvious, why do you think that so many people in this community - and this was a community in an area that had been a sundown town - in other words, if you were Black and caught after sundown on the streets, you were going to be probably in prison. So this was a small Black community between two railroad tracks, and that's where you spend a lot of your childhood. So why do you think so many people were involved with drugs - either using, selling, distributing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely not. I do not feel that my mother needed to go to prison. My mom needed rehabilitation, not incarceration. And my mother became sober in prison because she voluntarily took courses and volu"}
{"id": "944586352", "date": "2020-12-09", "guest": "Brittany Barnett", "title": "Lawyer Combats America's 'Huge Crisis' Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 25, "text": "So your boyfriend did sell drugs when you were a senior in high school. And you knew that. Could you have been charged of a crime because he was your boyfriend and you knew that he was selling drugs? Could you have ended up in prison?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I grew up during a time in rural East Texas where, unfortunately, some form of involvement in drugs was the norm, part of the culture, and you either knew someone selling drugs or you knew s"}
{"id": "944586352", "date": "2020-12-09", "guest": "Brittany Barnett", "title": "Lawyer Combats America's 'Huge Crisis' Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 26, "text": "Yeah. So what charges could have you been charged with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I knew nothing about federal drug conspiracy laws when I was 18 years old. I knew nothing about this literal guilty by association."}
{"id": "944586352", "date": "2020-12-09", "guest": "Brittany Barnett", "title": "Lawyer Combats America's 'Huge Crisis' Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 27, "text": "In a few weeks, if you petition a president for clemency for one of your clients, that president will be President Joe Biden. Now, Biden was one of the authors of the 1994 crime bill that was signed by President Clinton. What was the impact of that crime bill? And what will it be like to petition President Biden?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I could have been charged with federal drug conspiracy because I would drive to Dallas on a couple of occasions as a senior in high school, where I would stop off in east Dallas to a white clapboard h"}
{"id": "944586352", "date": "2020-12-09", "guest": "Brittany Barnett", "title": "Lawyer Combats America's 'Huge Crisis' Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 28, "text": "Well, Brittany Barnett, thank you so much for talking with us about your work and your life. I greatly appreciate it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The impact of the 1994 crime bill was far-reaching and devastating. And there is no doubt that after the implementation of that bill, we saw federal prison population skyrocket. We saw state prison po"}
{"id": "944586352", "date": "2020-12-09", "guest": "Brittany Barnett", "title": "Lawyer Combats America's 'Huge Crisis' Of Mass Incarceration", "question_index": 29, "text": "Brittany Barnett's new memoir is called \"A Knock At Midnight.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much."}
{"id": "945081644", "date": "2020-12-11", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "'Bad Behavior By People In High Office': Rachel Maddow On The Lessons Of Spiro Agnew", "question_index": 0, "text": "Rachel Maddow, Mike Yarvitz, welcome to FRESH AIR. Congratulations on your podcast, which has now gotten over 10 million downloads. When thinking about questions surrounding President Trump, like, did he obstruct justice? Did he commit impeachable offenses? Might we face a constitutional crisis? - people tend to look at Richard Nixon and Watergate. But you've looked at his vice president, Spiro Agnew. What made you think about investigating Agnew?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, sitting in for Terry Gross. My guests, Rachel Maddow and Mike Yarvitz, have collaborated on a new book called \"Bag Man: The Wild Crimes, Audacious Cover-Up, And Spe"}
{"id": "945081644", "date": "2020-12-11", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "'Bad Behavior By People In High Office': Rachel Maddow On The Lessons Of Spiro Agnew", "question_index": 1, "text": "I was almost embarrassed listening to your podcast 'cause I knew so little. Like, I hadn't spent that much time thinking about why Agnew left office, and I was just shocked by", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "turned out to be wrong when I looked them up. And for me, that piqued my curiosity."}
{"id": "945081644", "date": "2020-12-11", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "'Bad Behavior By People In High Office': Rachel Maddow On The Lessons Of Spiro Agnew", "question_index": 2, "text": "everything I learned.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "turned out to be wrong when I looked them up. And for me, that piqued my curiosity."}
{"id": "945081644", "date": "2020-12-11", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "'Bad Behavior By People In High Office': Rachel Maddow On The Lessons Of Spiro Agnew", "question_index": 3, "text": "Mike, before we get to what Agnew was guilty of, before we get his bribery and extortion scheme, let's just give some background. Before serving as vice president, he'd been elected the Baltimore County executive in 1962, then governor of Maryland in '66. What did Agnew represent politically when he was campaigning for vice president, when he became vice president? What did he represent on the right? Because he was kind of part of the culture war in the late '60s before the term culture war was coined.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "945081644", "date": "2020-12-11", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "'Bad Behavior By People In High Office': Rachel Maddow On The Lessons Of Spiro Agnew", "question_index": 4, "text": "With the help of his speechwriter, William Safire, he said phrases like - referring to his critics - calling them pusillanimous pussyfooters. Pusillanimous means lacking courage and resolution. He called his critics nattering nabobs of negativism. And there's a great quote that you use in the podcast. He said, if you tell me that the hippies and the yippies are going to be able to do the job, I'll tell you this. They can't run a bus. They can't serve in governmental office. They can't run a lathe in a factory. All they can do is lay down in the park and sleep or kick policemen with razor blades.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think that's right. I think one of the interesting things that we found was that he really was this sort of firebrand figure on the right in a way that Nixon really wasn't. He sort of was able"}
{"id": "945081644", "date": "2020-12-11", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "'Bad Behavior By People In High Office': Rachel Maddow On The Lessons Of Spiro Agnew", "question_index": 5, "text": "Very, very provocative.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think that's right. I think one of the interesting things that we found was that he really was this sort of firebrand figure on the right in a way that Nixon really wasn't. He sort of was able"}
{"id": "945081644", "date": "2020-12-11", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "'Bad Behavior By People In High Office': Rachel Maddow On The Lessons Of Spiro Agnew", "question_index": 6, "text": "Do you think Agnew kind of creates a new playbook for the kind of language you can use in campaign for high office?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- it's a well-trod path, and Agnew was great at it."}
{"id": "945081644", "date": "2020-12-11", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "'Bad Behavior By People In High Office': Rachel Maddow On The Lessons Of Spiro Agnew", "question_index": 7, "text": "So let's get to the bribery and extortion scheme that he was part of in Maryland. What was the scheme?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I mean, Mike, one of the things, I think - you can correct me if I'm wrong. But I feel like when we were going through his most controversial statements, one of the things that was sort of mind-bend"}
{"id": "945081644", "date": "2020-12-11", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "'Bad Behavior By People In High Office': Rachel Maddow On The Lessons Of Spiro Agnew", "question_index": 8, "text": "How did it continue into the White House?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Essentially, it was a scheme that he had concocted when he was Baltimore County executive, where he realized that he had the power to award some local contracts for engineering and architecture,"}
{"id": "945081644", "date": "2020-12-11", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "'Bad Behavior By People In High Office': Rachel Maddow On The Lessons Of Spiro Agnew", "question_index": 9, "text": "So once the Maryland federal prosecutors found out about talk of this bribery and extortion scheme involving Agnew, they wanted to investigate and see what they can find. They needed the green light from the newly appointed Attorney General Elliot Richardson. He was appointed in the spring of 1973. Richardson had already appointed a special prosecutor to investigate Watergate. So what was Richardson's reaction when he was told by his prosecutors that they wanted to investigate the vice president on bribery and extortion?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was this one great moment that we came across in the history of Agnew as a vice president where he tried to assert control over federal contracts on the Eastern Seaboard - General Services Admin"}
{"id": "945081644", "date": "2020-12-11", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "'Bad Behavior By People In High Office': Rachel Maddow On The Lessons Of Spiro Agnew", "question_index": 10, "text": "So Richardson is getting pressured by Agnew, like, don't do anything about this. Richardson could have put a stop to this right there, but he didn't.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Richardson was in an amazing situation here because he was not only the attorney general - the third Nixon attorney general at that point. The first two had resigned in Watergate-adjacent scandals of "}
{"id": "945081644", "date": "2020-12-11", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "'Bad Behavior By People In High Office': Rachel Maddow On The Lessons Of Spiro Agnew", "question_index": 11, "text": "You also have on tape Agnew saying, get this thing - the investigation - get this thing over with, and get this guy Skolnik - one of the prosecutors - who's a Muskie volunteer, the hell out of his office. Where did you find that statement?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He could have. And that's one of the really sort of dramatic scenes that plays out in this podcast and that the prosecutors recounted for us is this July 3, 1973 meeting, where they're going to the Ju"}
{"id": "945081644", "date": "2020-12-11", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "'Bad Behavior By People In High Office': Rachel Maddow On The Lessons Of Spiro Agnew", "question_index": 12, "text": "Until you played it for him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that one we found on one of these Nixon White House tapes, which was a conversation that Spiro Agnew was having with Richard Nixon in the Oval Office. And that was - you know, when you talk abou"}
{"id": "945081644", "date": "2020-12-11", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "'Bad Behavior By People In High Office': Rachel Maddow On The Lessons Of Spiro Agnew", "question_index": 13, "text": "So let's play some of prosecutor Barney Skolnik's reaction when you played that tape for him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Until we played it for him. And it was something that he had not known. And again, it's a credit to his boss at the time, George Beall, that he that he didn't know that because that pressure, those ef"}
{"id": "945081644", "date": "2020-12-11", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "'Bad Behavior By People In High Office': Rachel Maddow On The Lessons Of Spiro Agnew", "question_index": 14, "text": "There were many surprises for me in listening to your podcast \"Bag Man.\" Perhaps the biggest was hearing - and I'll set the scene here. I was listening to this particular episode of the podcast not long after George H.W. Bush's funeral. And there was a kind of - a whole week of the news networks, basically, talking most of the time about George H.W. Bush's presidency, what a model president he was. And suddenly, his name crops up in your podcast about George H.W. Bush's presidency - what a model president he was. And suddenly, his name crops up in your podcast about the Agnew bribery and extortion scheme and the attempt to shut down the investigation. Tell us how George H.W. Bush comes up in this.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're listening to the interview Terry recorded last year with MSNBC host Rachel Maddow and Mike Yarvitz about their podcast series Bag Man. It tells the story of the bribery and ex"}
{"id": "945081644", "date": "2020-12-11", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "'Bad Behavior By People In High Office': Rachel Maddow On The Lessons Of Spiro Agnew", "question_index": 15, "text": "So we know that he actually went to the senator's office to try to get him to pressure his brother to stop the investigation. But do we really know what he said? We know he had the meetings, but I was wondering, like, did H.W. Bush go to the senator and say, I was told to tell you this. I'm telling you this. I'm not telling you to do it. I'm just telling you I was told to tell you this. I've told you this. Goodbye. And thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", and so Nixon's staff is like, oh, no, no. Sir, of course, you can't do that yourself. It seems like Agnew did a little bit of it himself. There was a lot of discussion about different senior White H"}
{"id": "945081644", "date": "2020-12-11", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "'Bad Behavior By People In High Office': Rachel Maddow On The Lessons Of Spiro Agnew", "question_index": 16, "text": "Do you know what I mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", and so Nixon's staff is like, oh, no, no. Sir, of course, you can't do that yourself. It seems like Agnew did a little bit of it himself. There was a lot of discussion about different senior White H"}
{"id": "945081644", "date": "2020-12-11", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "'Bad Behavior By People In High Office': Rachel Maddow On The Lessons Of Spiro Agnew", "question_index": 17, "text": "So it's - that's like I'm...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, we don't..."}
{"id": "945081644", "date": "2020-12-11", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "'Bad Behavior By People In High Office': Rachel Maddow On The Lessons Of Spiro Agnew", "question_index": 18, "text": "...Doing my job. I'm telling you, but I'm not pressuring you. I'm just reporting what they told me to tell you in a neutral way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "945081644", "date": "2020-12-11", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "'Bad Behavior By People In High Office': Rachel Maddow On The Lessons Of Spiro Agnew", "question_index": 19, "text": "Mike Yarvitz, a former producer at MSNBC, and Rachel Maddow speaking with Terry Gross last year about their podcast series Bag Man. Maddow and Yarvitz have collaborated on a new book with some new material, also called Bag Man. You'll hear more of their conversation after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's - yeah, that's right. We can hear, obviously, the White House tapes where Al Haig is informing President Nixon that he's - you know, he says, I did it through George Bush on the first run, mean"}
{"id": "945081644", "date": "2020-12-11", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "'Bad Behavior By People In High Office': Rachel Maddow On The Lessons Of Spiro Agnew", "question_index": 20, "text": "So you found something, Mike, that the prosecutors didn't even know at the time. And that - this was - there was a secret plan that Agnew had to shut down the investigation. Would you describe that secret plan?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. We're listening to Terry's interview with MSNBC host Rachel Maddow and journalist Mike Yarvitz about their podcast Bag Man, which detailed the c"}
{"id": "945081644", "date": "2020-12-11", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "'Bad Behavior By People In High Office': Rachel Maddow On The Lessons Of Spiro Agnew", "question_index": 21, "text": "He shut down the attempt to shut down the investigation", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, you know, it's an interesting part of us digging into the story - was looking through the Nixon White House recordings. And, obviously, those recordings have been very picked over as it relates "}
{"id": "945081644", "date": "2020-12-11", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "'Bad Behavior By People In High Office': Rachel Maddow On The Lessons Of Spiro Agnew", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, you know, it's an interesting part of us digging into the story - was looking through the Nixon White House recordings. And, obviously, those recordings have been very picked over as it relates "}
{"id": "945081644", "date": "2020-12-11", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "'Bad Behavior By People In High Office': Rachel Maddow On The Lessons Of Spiro Agnew", "question_index": 23, "text": "He...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. That's right."}
{"id": "945081644", "date": "2020-12-11", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "'Bad Behavior By People In High Office': Rachel Maddow On The Lessons Of Spiro Agnew", "question_index": 24, "text": "OK. In case anybody is finding the story hard to follow - so George Beall is the federal prosecutor in Maryland overseeing the investigation into Agnew. His brother is a Republican sitting senator from Maryland, who's getting pressured from the White House. So the senator's being pressured to tell his brother, the prosecutor, shut it down. And - yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He resisted that pressure that was coming at him from the Nixon White House and from his brother."}
{"id": "945081644", "date": "2020-12-11", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "'Bad Behavior By People In High Office': Rachel Maddow On The Lessons Of Spiro Agnew", "question_index": 25, "text": "So once prosecutors understood Agnew's involvement in this bribery and extortion scandal, we had a president under criminal investigation - Richard Nixon, Watergate - and now a vice president under a completely separate criminal investigation. What was the unique set of problems that this presented for prosecutors?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The other nice dynamic at work there is that George Beall's older brother, the U.S. senator - he really owed his Senate seat to Nixon and Agnew. Nixon and Agnew had weighed in very heavily during his "}
{"id": "945081644", "date": "2020-12-11", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "'Bad Behavior By People In High Office': Rachel Maddow On The Lessons Of Spiro Agnew", "question_index": 26, "text": "And the fear of that kind of chaos drove the prosecutors' approach to dealing with Agnew. Would you explain how?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Prosecutors, at the time, I think were already - well, prosecutors writ large. I think the Justice Department, the attorney general, Elliot Richardson, at the time, was already faced with the enormity"}
{"id": "945081644", "date": "2020-12-11", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "'Bad Behavior By People In High Office': Rachel Maddow On The Lessons Of Spiro Agnew", "question_index": 27, "text": "So what was Richardson's approach to removing Agnew from office?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the prosecutors themselves, the - these young prosecutors in Baltimore who actually put together all the evidence that nailed Agnew, that really had this - they built a slam dunk case against hi"}
{"id": "945081644", "date": "2020-12-11", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "'Bad Behavior By People In High Office': Rachel Maddow On The Lessons Of Spiro Agnew", "question_index": 28, "text": "And what was the count that he pled to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "implications of the end of Agnew as vice president of the United States because the Agnew legal team was maintaining publicly that Agnew as vice president was immune from prosecution, that he couldn't"}
{"id": "945081644", "date": "2020-12-11", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "'Bad Behavior By People In High Office': Rachel Maddow On The Lessons Of Spiro Agnew", "question_index": 29, "text": "So this is why when people think about Agnew leaving office, they just think of, like, oh, tax fraud. And they...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He pled to tax evasion, but he didn't plead guilty. He pled no contest."}
{"id": "945081644", "date": "2020-12-11", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "'Bad Behavior By People In High Office': Rachel Maddow On The Lessons Of Spiro Agnew", "question_index": 30, "text": "And it was such a bigger story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "945081644", "date": "2020-12-11", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "'Bad Behavior By People In High Office': Rachel Maddow On The Lessons Of Spiro Agnew", "question_index": 31, "text": "So one of the questions surrounding President Trump now, a question that surrounded President Nixon and Vice President Agnew, is, can a sitting president be indicted on criminal charges - or, in Agnew's case, a sitting vice president? Does the Agnew story that you've told so well in Bag Man have any lessons for us today that can help answer that question?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're listening to the interview Terry recorded last year with MSNBC host Rachel Maddow and journalist Mike Yarvitz about the podcast series Bag Man. It tells the story of a bribery"}
{"id": "945081644", "date": "2020-12-11", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "'Bad Behavior By People In High Office': Rachel Maddow On The Lessons Of Spiro Agnew", "question_index": 32, "text": "That's fascinating.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that there are puzzles on both sides of this. If Agnew's defense team and if Agnew himself didn't believe that a vice president could be indicted, which is what they maintained and argued publ"}
{"id": "945081644", "date": "2020-12-11", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "'Bad Behavior By People In High Office': Rachel Maddow On The Lessons Of Spiro Agnew", "question_index": 33, "text": "So let's just get a sense of what chaos our government was in in October of 1973. Agnew resigns, and then 10 days later, what happens?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm - and I'm still puzzled as to whether or not they were bluffing, that they weren't totally sure they could indict him - or what would have happened had that Justice Department opinion that said he"}
{"id": "945081644", "date": "2020-12-11", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "'Bad Behavior By People In High Office': Rachel Maddow On The Lessons Of Spiro Agnew", "question_index": 34, "text": "Yeah. So Elliot Richardson, the then-attorney general, was so important in bringing down Vice President Agnew and in the Watergate investigation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "in terms of our history books. We can only remember so many events from one particular time in history. And so Agnew ended up slinking into the shadows on that one."}
{"id": "945081644", "date": "2020-12-11", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "'Bad Behavior By People In High Office': Rachel Maddow On The Lessons Of Spiro Agnew", "question_index": 35, "text": "Thank you both so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's interesting to see the - I guess the strength of the Justice Department through various lenses of history. I mean, the Justice Department has rules. It has its own traditions. It has its ow"}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. John le Carre, the author whose spy novels were praised for transcending genre fiction and simply being great literature, died Saturday of pneumonia. He was 89. Many of his books have been adapted into films or TV series, including \"The Spy Who Came In From The Cold,\" \"Tinker, Tailor, Soldier, Spy,\" \"The Little Drummer Girl,\" \"The Constant Gardener\" and \"The Night Manager.\" In his New York Times obituary, Sarah Lyall wrote that le Carre, quote, \"portrayed British intelligence operations as cesspools of ambiguity in which right and wrong are too close to call and in which it is rarely obvious whether the ends, even if the ends are clear, justify the means. Le Carre's spies are lonely, disillusioned men whose work is driven by budget troubles, bureaucratic power plays and the opaque machinations of politicians, men who are as likely to be betrayed by colleagues and lovers as by the enemy,\" unquote. Before writing espionage novels, le Carre was a spy. He worked for Britain's domestic intelligence service, MI5, and its foreign intelligence service, MI6. He was still working for MI6 when his third book, the Cold War novel \"The Spy Who Came In From The Cold,\" became an international bestseller. One of the characters in that novel, George Smiley, became the main character in several of le Carre's later books. We're going to listen back to two interviews I recorded with le Carre. The first one we'll hear was recorded in 1989 after the publication of his novel \"The Russia House.\" It was written during the waning days of the Cold War. The Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, two years after the novel's publication.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 1, "text": "It seems to me you've been one of the more liberal of the spy novelists and that you've always had a kind of more ambiguous stand in the Cold War than a lot of other people. I mean that you don't write in black and white. That things - there are a lot of gray areas and moral ambiguities in your writing.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 2, "text": "You started writing books in - well, publishing - getting your books published in the early 1960s. And that coincided with the time of the popularity of Ian Fleming's \"James Bond\" books. And I was wondering if you'd read those books and if they helped you decide what you did or didn't want to do in your own fiction.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I wrote about people who were groaning under the weight of the Cold War, who were being deprived of the spirit of optimism, who were working in the dark, really not believing they would ever see"}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 3, "text": "And you wanted to depict the spy more as a working man in a way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes. I owe a great deal to Fleming for one reason only, that Fleming produced - by writing that type of romanticized, heroic, amoral novel, he produced what you might call a counter-market, which"}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 4, "text": "Oh, how were they like flies in aspic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I knew that world, and I knew the way it had worked. And I knew that what I had seen was ordinary - men and women locked in an impossible conflict. They were like flies in aspic."}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 5, "text": "Were you recruited to work as a spy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, because we were given these postures - these ideological postures that were irreconcilable, and we worked within them and we had tried to tease the other side. I mean, in the high day of the Col"}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 6, "text": "Well, I never know whether you can kind of volunteer and then they check you out or whether they seek you out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah, you can't do it independently."}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 7, "text": "So you were sought out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think there are dozens of ways in which organizations do it. They have networks of talent spotters through the universities and the professional organizations. I think most recruiting organiza"}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 8, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's not what I said. I..."}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 9, "text": "Did your feelings for the job change as the Cold War progressed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I don't want to answer that question."}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 10, "text": "Did you ever have an assignment that you didn't want to take on because you thought that - because you opposed its means?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, a kind of, as the French say, a cathar (ph) set in - a wariness of the spirit - which I tried to reflect in such characters as George Smiley. I also began to think it was damn silly that we were "}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 11, "text": "When you started writing fiction, whose clearance or permission did you have to get, especially since it was spy fiction?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, if I did, I certainly didn't speak up. I mean, you either accept the package or you don't. You can't pick on this one and say, I won't do it."}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 12, "text": "Were they afraid that the kinds of ambiguities that you were raising would be dispiriting to your readers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, if I had been even an orthodox foreign servant, I would have had to obtain clearance from my employing department, even if I had written a book on Lepidoptera. As it was, I submitted my novels, "}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 13, "text": "Oh, I like that word", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I think so. I think that came back to me at least from one or two espiocrats in the..."}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I think so. I think that came back to me at least from one or two espiocrats in the..."}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 15, "text": "Was it obligatory for you to get a pen name?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do, too. Thank you. It's entered my new book. ...In the American structure that I was undermining the very spirit which should fire young recruits to the agency or to the intelligence community. I w"}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 16, "text": "Can I suggest a reason, though? This probably isn't it at all.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it was. It was. They said, choose another name, and I went to Victor Gollancz, who was my publisher in London, and said, I've got to choose a pseudonym. And he said, well, my boy, I'll give you s"}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 17, "text": "But if you were a Frenchman, then the English readers would say, well, this is an outsider anyways. How intimately could he really know our system? Maybe it's better and things are more black and white than he's making it seem", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Please do."}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Please do."}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 19, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, those wily French. Yes."}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 20, "text": "Mole is a word that you're credited with having brought into the English vocabulary. I think you borrowed it from the Soviets, really. What was the origin of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's quite - yes, it's a thought. It means a lot of things, I believe. It means square. (Speaking French) is a dance where people wear masks, I think, and change partners. And then in roulette, "}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 21, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I thought I borrowed it from the Soviets. But the editors of the Oxford English Dictionary can't find any Soviet reference to mole."}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 22, "text": "Coming in from the cold is another expression that you coined.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the origin was in the notion of a mole is somebody who burrows deep into the fabric of our society, is a little observed, little noticed thing - creature, and then, from inside, causes its downf"}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 23, "text": "And what was behind that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yes, I suppose so - or, at least, I applied it to espionage, I suppose. I was the first person to do that."}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 24, "text": "But, I mean, how did you come up with the expression?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, behind it was the character of Alec Leamas and the spy who came in from the cold, who was an old, professional agent, an ageing professional agent, who was suffering from what you might call a k"}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well, how does a writer have to deceive?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's a meteorological perception. It's cold out there, and it's warmer indoors. And the chill comes from a lack of human contact or a lack of of human affection, of having to keep what Graham Gr"}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 26, "text": "And how does a spy have to be an entertainer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that that chip of ice to which Graham Greene refers is really some kind of recording instrument. L. P. Hartley said, don't leave me in your drawing room, I'm sure to read your letters. I"}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 27, "text": "And knowing how to flatter people.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Most of them have to have entertainment value, particularly if they are going to recruit people. If I - alas, we've never met. But I'm sure you're beautiful and young and elegant. And if I were determ"}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 28, "text": "That was John le Carre in an interview we recorded in 1989. Le Carre died Saturday of pneumonia. He was 89. I interviewed le Carre again in 2017. We'll hear that interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And knowing how to flatter people, and more particularly, knowing how to make people dependent on you because once I had obtained you, you would then have to continue working for me. And you would hav"}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're remembering novelist John le Carre, who died on Saturday. Before he wrote about spies, he worked as a spy for Britain's domestic and foreign intelligence agencies. His most famous character, George Smiley, appeared in several of his novels. I interviewed le Carre for a second time in 2017 after the publication of his novel \"A Legacy Of Spies.\" The main character, Peter Guillam, had been a protege of Smileys. In \"A Legacy Of Spies,\" Guillam is retired but is forced to re-examine actions he took when he was a spy during the Cold War, actions that may have cost the lives of two people who were close to him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And knowing how to flatter people, and more particularly, knowing how to make people dependent on you because once I had obtained you, you would then have to continue working for me. And you would hav"}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 30, "text": "John le Carre, welcome to FRESH AIR. Let's begin with a reading from your new novel, \"A Legacy Of Spies.\" Would you read the first page for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And knowing how to flatter people, and more particularly, knowing how to make people dependent on you because once I had obtained you, you would then have to continue working for me. And you would hav"}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 31, "text": "John le Carre, why did you write about a spy forced to face his responsibility for two deaths decades ago?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. (Reading) What follows is a truthful account, as best I'm able to provide it, of my role in the British deception operation, code named Windfall, that was mounted against the East German intelli"}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 32, "text": "You know, in the reading that you did, your character refers to, you know, being expected or having to suppress human feelings to be a spy. And he later, you know, thinks that George Smiley - your most famous character who recruited your narrator - suppressed the humanity in him. Do you feel like when you were working for British intelligence that you had to suppress human feelings or suppress your humanity?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think because, back then, we had a clear philosophy which we thought we were protecting. And it was a notion of the West. It was a notion of individual freedom, of inclusiveness, of tolerance - all "}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 33, "text": "But getting back to what I asked, did you feel like you had to suppress your humanity...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, of course, in any corporate or institutional situation, people who are employed by those corporations have to repress their feelings in one way or another. We, during the Cold War, were aware of"}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 34, "text": "...To be a good spy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, of course, in any corporate or institutional situation, people who are employed by those corporations have to repress their feelings in one way or another. We, during the Cold War, were aware of"}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 35, "text": "We're listening back to the interview I recorded with John le Carre in 2017. We'll hear more of the interview after a short break. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep. Yes, I did. In the greater cause, I felt I had to suppress my humanity, I - where I was asking people to do things, I tried to persuade them that they were doing it for the greater good. And I wa"}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 36, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're remembering John le Carre, the spy novelist and former British spy. He died Saturday. He was 89. Several of le Carre's books were adapted into movies and TV series, including \"The Spy Who Came In From The Cold,\" \"Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy,\" \"The Little Drummer Girl\" and \"A Constant Gardener (ph).\" Before he became famous for his fiction, he worked as a spy for Britain's domestic intelligence service, MI5, and its foreign intelligence service, MI6. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with him in 2017 after the publication of his novel \"A Legacy Of Spies.\" Earlier in our conversation, le Carre told me that when he worked for British intelligence, to be a good spy, he had to learn how to suppress his feelings and even his humanity.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep. Yes, I did. In the greater cause, I felt I had to suppress my humanity, I - where I was asking people to do things, I tried to persuade them that they were doing it for the greater good. And I wa"}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 37, "text": "Do you look back on your career in intelligence and regret anything that you did?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep. Yes, I did. In the greater cause, I felt I had to suppress my humanity, I - where I was asking people to do things, I tried to persuade them that they were doing it for the greater good. And I wa"}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 38, "text": "So what made you feel queasy was deceiving people who you know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I do. I regret, in my student days, posing as a crypto-communist and trying to attract Soviet recruiters. In those days, I was sort of half successful. I got picked up and flirted with by a Russi"}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 39, "text": "...And pretending to have opinions and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That's right."}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 40, "text": "...Beliefs that you did not have in order to entrap people.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 41, "text": "Mmm hmm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. But, I mean, if you think of it - in the larger sense, if you drop a bomb, you kill people you don't know."}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 42, "text": "There's another paragraph I'd like you to read from your new novel. It's on Page 19, and it's about interrogation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If you kill them with a knife, you kill them - you kill somebody you do know. It is the human encounter that makes the act unbearable or makes - places a great strain on one's conscience or one's sens"}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 43, "text": "Did you have to do interrogations when you were in intelligence?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) In any interrogation, denial is the tipping point. Never mind the courtesies that went before. From the moment of denial, things are never going to be the same. At the secret policeman level"}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 44, "text": "And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I did a lot of interrogations in my first spell in British security and MI5."}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 45, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded with John le Carre in 2017. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded in 2017 with John le Carre. He died Saturday at the age of 89. His novels include \"The Spy Who Came In From The Cold\" and \"Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy.\" In his memoir, \"The Pigeon Tunnel,\" he described his father as a pathological liar.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were benign interrogations, as it were, often of civil servants whose departments and whose head of personnel were aware of the interrogation, the interview, and were able to supply protection to"}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 46, "text": "So you suggest that in terms of your earlier career as a spy in England, that since your father was a liar, that you knew how to lie and invent personalities, that that came naturally to you. You say your father was a con man, an occasional fantasist, an occasional jailbird, a crisis addict, a performance addict, a delusional enchanter who wrecked a lot of people's lives. And you say he had absolutely no relationship to the truth. So do you feel like you picked up certain skills, so to speak, from being his son?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were benign interrogations, as it were, often of civil servants whose departments and whose head of personnel were aware of the interrogation, the interview, and were able to supply protection to"}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 47, "text": "Are you saying that when you were young and growing up as, you know, a person of more means than your family actually had, that you felt fraudulent?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", I was also very much concerned to survive. It's about survival. You become watchful. You know, I'd spend a lot of time, if he left the house, going through his pockets and things, trying to find out"}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 48, "text": "Your father made you do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm quite certain we - I felt that I belonged to a fraudulent outfit because often my job was to humor creditors, tell them the money was in the post, as it were, whether they were tradesmen or whethe"}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 49, "text": "So he kind of made you his partner in crime.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I suppose you could say he made me do it. I obliged him, you know. You only have one person to love if you have one parent."}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 50, "text": "Can you describe more what that revolt against your father was like, what shape it took?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I was adolescent, yes, he did. Yes. And then I revolted against that, and I guess that's how the schism between us began, and it continued thereafter. I think from my age, sort of 18, 19 by then "}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 51, "text": "Oh, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was asking him for certain truths - why things had happened in our lives, why do we have to move houses suddenly, why have we sold the house, why have the bailiffs removed my possessions and then w"}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 52, "text": "So you protected yourself against him when you started to have bestsellers and he wanted your money? You succeeded in protecting yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so we'd never had any money in the family. And I had been - until all that happened, I'd been, first of all, a quite impoverished married schoolmaster and then, finally, in government service, sli"}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 53, "text": "Did you inherit his debts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- one of the great mysteries of life. And he'd been, for many of his years, undischarged, bankrupt. But just in this last surge of seeming affluent, he'd put the whole card house together again. And i"}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 54, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded with John le Carre in 2017. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "didn't. I inherited them morally, I suppose."}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 55, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded in 2017 with John le Carre. He died Saturday at the age of 89. His novels include \"The Spy Who Came In From The Cold\" and \"Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy.\" When we left off, we were talking about how his father was a swindler. And after he died, le Carre discovered his father owned houses all over England even though he was bankrupt. I know at some point in your life - and I don't know if this was before or after your father died - you hired detectives to try to find out who was your father really...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "didn't. I inherited them morally, I suppose."}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 56, "text": "...What had he actually done?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 57, "text": "So how old - was your father still alive when you did that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 58, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that was far more interesting."}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 59, "text": "Whoa.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "what the intention was. But the file described my father as an enormously rich arms dealer with connections with British intelligence."}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 60, "text": "Do you think any of that is true?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...So..."}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 61, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Enormously rich isn't."}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 62, "text": "Why is that grounds for a lawsuit, failing to mention him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", failing to give him credit for putting me through these excruciatingly painful private schools that I hated."}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 63, "text": "How were you able to develop a moral compass with a father who had none?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You don't need any excuse. I offended his narcissism."}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 64, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's kind of you to suggest that I developed one."}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 65, "text": "Do you look back on your life and think, I've had an extraordinarily interesting life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's taken a long time. And I suppose I've been a lot of people in my 85 years, not all of them very nice people. But I think I got better, actually. And that's about all there is to it. I mean, you z"}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 66, "text": "I like the way you say, in retrospect, I've had a very interesting life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do sometimes. I'm scared of being a bore about it, but it does seem to be a wonderful life in retrospect or an extraordinarily varied one. And that prompted me now to - particularly with this novel,"}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 67, "text": "Maybe at the time, as you were living through various things, they seemed not interesting, per se?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do sometimes. I'm scared of being a bore about it, but it does seem to be a wonderful life in retrospect or an extraordinarily varied one. And that prompted me now to - particularly with this novel,"}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 68, "text": "That's crazy. So what did it say to you that the former head of the KGB identified with your character, George Smiley?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I mean, I've had really a very interesting life. And I mean, really, the strangest thing is - in some ways has been the cross-border relationship I've had with the former Soviet Union. The most un"}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 69, "text": "The KGB?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's very hard to say this, but there were elements of the KGB - and there still are, I suppose - at the FSB, but less so. Certainly in communist times, there were bits of the KGB that were very"}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 70, "text": "God. That was not your intention.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's - the KGB, yes."}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 71, "text": "John le Carre, David Cornwell", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was not my intention at all. But they saw some kind of equivalence. You know, in the end - and it applies to doctors, scientists, and it applies to spies - people who are using the same techniques,"}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 72, "text": "- it's really great to talk with you. Thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was not my intention at all. But they saw some kind of equivalence. You know, in the end - and it applies to doctors, scientists, and it applies to spies - people who are using the same techniques,"}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 73, "text": "My interview with John le Carre was recorded in 2017. He died of pneumonia Saturday. He was 89. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll hear the interview I just recorded with actor Riz Ahmed, which we'd originally planned to broadcast today. He won an Emmy for his starring role in the HBO series \"The Night Of\" and was also in \"Rogue One: A Star Wars Story,\" \"Jason Bourne,\" \"Nightcrawler,\" \"The Reluctant Fundamentalist,\" \"Four Lions\" and \"The Road To Guantanamo.\" He stars in the new movie \"Sound Of Metal\" as a punk-metal drummer who loses his hearing and has to rethink his life. Riz Ahmed is also a rapper. Some of his lyrics are about being the son of Pakistani immigrants in England and about being Muslim in the post-9/11 world. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much, Terry. Thank you."}
{"id": "946227312", "date": "2020-12-14", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Remembering John Le Carr\u00e9, British Spy Turned Best-Selling Novelist", "question_index": 74, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Kayla Lattimore. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much, Terry. Thank you."}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Elton John, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Congratulations on the book. It's a pleasure to have you back on our show.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, editor of the website TV Worth Watching, in for Terry Gross. Our guest today is Elton John. He personally selected the tracks for a new eight-CD boxset spanning"}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 1, "text": "So the book is a very candid description of your life. Before we get into some of the candid details that you write about in the book, you were in the band early in your career as the keyboard player in Long John Baldry's band. The band was called Bluesology. You tell this really funny story at the beginning of the book where he had just had a big hit, so now he was famous. And, you know, young women were coming to the concert and kind of, like, really getting excited and screaming. And he says - on mic, he says - why don't you say what he said?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. It's lovely to be back with you."}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 2, "text": "What did that teach you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he said, if you - they were grabbing the microphone. He said, if you break my microphone, you'll pay me 50 pounds. And I'm going - oh, John, that's not the way to handle this situation."}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 3, "text": "...About stardom and how to handle it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, John..."}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Not how to handle that, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not how to handle it."}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Of course, also with you, when you had young girls screaming at you and everything, like, you were gay. They didn't know that", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because I got to this point where, after often \"Rocket Man\" came out, which was my first really big hit - about two years into my career, after \"Your Song\" - I got screaming girls at some of my shows."}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because I got to this point where, after often \"Rocket Man\" came out, which was my first really big hit - about two years into my career, after \"Your Song\" - I got screaming girls at some of my shows."}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Oh - and he was gay, too. Exactly, exactly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Well, he was gay, too."}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 8, "text": "That's right. That's right. So what was it like for you - knowing you were gay, knowing they didn't realize you were gay and they were probably having all these, like, sexual fantasies about you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It's like, well, I'm not interested. And you're not - you're interested, but I'm not."}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 10, "text": ". Well, speaking of you and John Baldry being gay - when you decided you were going to marry a woman when you were in your early 20s, he said to you - John, you're gay; you can't marry her. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But it was very sweet. And they were very - I've still got a lot of - most of my audience is a lot of women, as well - a lot of girls and a lot of females. And I'm very grateful for that. But I just k"}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 11, "text": "...What was your reaction? Because I don't think you had acknowledged that to yourself yet.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 12, "text": "It's remarkable that you could be, like, a rock musician and remain a virgin until you were 23", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I hadn't. And I just thought, oh, my God. I remember where it was at the club. It was in Carnaby Street. And that's when Bernie and I came home that night, and we were so drunk. And I told Linda, the "}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 13, "text": ". You might be the only", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I hadn't. And I just thought, oh, my God. I remember where it was at the club. It was in Carnaby Street. And that's when Bernie and I came home that night, and we were so drunk. And I told Linda, the "}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 14, "text": "- the only person.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I hadn't. And I just thought, oh, my God. I remember where it was at the club. It was in Carnaby Street. And that's when Bernie and I came home that night, and we were so drunk. And I told Linda, the "}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 15, "text": "You said you wanted to play music. But on the other hand, you write that, you know, early on, like when you were a sideman with John Baldry, that you thought what you really wanted to do was write songs. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, a lot of rock musicians go into rock music to pull girls. You know, they go - that's one of the big attractions. Well, we can play onstage, and we can flirt with the girls. And then we"}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 16, "text": "...You had auditioned for Liberty Records. And they told you you were not ever going to be a pop star, you weren't pop star material. So did you think, like, you really weren't cut out to be a - like, maybe they were right - that you weren't cut out to be a performer, that your job should be behind the scenes or as a sideman?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I..."}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 17, "text": "You said you had no self-esteem or low self-esteem. Were the costumes that you - like, the crazy clothing that you wore - the big glasses, all that - was that in part armor to cover up your low self-esteem, like, something to call it...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was getting fed up with Long John Baldry playing to cabaret people who were eating chicken and chips and not caring about the music. And I thought, I didn't become a musician for this. Maybe -"}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 18, "text": "Yeah?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No..."}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 19, "text": "It sounds like a lot of your childhood years weren't great. Your parents bickered all the time. Your mother remarried. And you liked your stepfather, but they bickered all the time. They got married when she was 16 and he was 17. You wonder if they were ever - if they ever should have been together in the first place. And your mother sounds like she was a very moody and frequently angry person who could hold a grudge. And you even describe how when you - you don't remember this, but I think it was an aunt who told you that when your mother was toilet training you, she would beat you with a hairbrush until you were bloody. And she'd beat you until you used the potty. So is that - was that kind of typical of what your childhood was like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...It was because in my teenage years, I wasn't allowed to wear anything fashionable at all - no pointy-toed shoes, no chisel-toed shoes, no fashionable coats. So when I actually left home and started"}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 20, "text": "What did you collect as a kid?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that was my mother who did that. My father and my mother should never have gotten married. They got married very quickly after the war, which a lot of people did. They were totally unsuited to e"}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Well, you became an obsessive shopper later in life. And you collected everything.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Books, records, you know, toys, Dinky Toys, but mostly records and books which, you know, I never lent out to anybody because I - they're in - I still have my books."}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 22, "text": "He was an amateur trumpet player, wasn't he?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I'm an addict. It was the instigation of being an addict. But it was because I felt safe with the objects and not with my parents. And so - and it gave me a determination, you know, with my dad "}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Yeah. So why was he so set - I realize he didn't like rock 'n' roll. But still, he must have appreciated that you were such a talented musician. And you were studying classical music, too, at a conservatory.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was a trumpet player in a band, yeah. But he..."}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 24, "text": "You could say that", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 25, "text": "but it also...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 26, "text": "Let's face it, you've had an amazing life. He must have been so proud once you became famous and hopefully a little embarrassed that he tried so hard to discourage you from doing what you do.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 27, "text": "He didn't even try to capitalize on your fame, like, that's my son?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not really. He never came to my shows. He never wrote a letter saying well done."}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 28, "text": "Just curious, how much do you think of that is like the music, that it was rock 'n' roll? And do you think any of that estrangement was because you were gay?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No. No. He had four other sons that he had with his - married to Edna. He was a tactile father to them and loving. He just, you know, I've done so much therapy and rehab. And I just looked back on"}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 29, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think he was a musical snob, yeah."}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 30, "text": "This is great music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I grew up - I'm so grateful - I mean, I always had music in the house, Terry. I grew up with, you know, Nat King Cole, Frank Sinatra, George Shearing."}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 31, "text": "And that's kind of what you did. OK. Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Elton John. He has a new memoir called \"Me.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All great music. I mean, all from America, obviously, but great music. When I was, like, 9 years old, I think I got \"Songs For Swingin' Lovers\" as my Christmas present by Frank Sinatra. And I loved Ge"}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 32, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Elton John. He has a new memoir called \"Me.\" It seems to me in London that there was a kind of community of gay musicians who weren't necessarily out to the public, to their listeners, but that people in the music world knew. And that it, you know - that the - it wasn't as bad a closet as some closets were because there was this community of people. And so - like you and John Baldry and later Freddie Mercury. And, I mean, there's, you know, David Bowie being gender fluid. And - but did you feel like there was a community there where there - that was a kind of safe place?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All great music. I mean, all from America, obviously, but great music. When I was, like, 9 years old, I think I got \"Songs For Swingin' Lovers\" as my Christmas present by Frank Sinatra. And I loved Ge"}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 33, "text": "And he was your first boyfriend, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there was a gay community that I got introduced to. My manager, John Reid, was gay, and he was the head of Tamla Motown records in England. And I met..."}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 34, "text": "So it's interesting that you and Freddie Mercury were friends, and there have been biopics about both of you in the past year. Tell us a little bit about what the friendship was like and what he was like offstage.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And Tony King was the - like, the first real big gay influence who's in the book a lot who's my best friend and still works for me. And he was the most exotic creature I'd ever met when I first "}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 35, "text": "How were you introduced to cocaine?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross. Let's get back to Terry's interview from last year with Elton John. He has a new handpicked eight-CD collection from his career titled \"Elto"}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 36, "text": "Did you think that it would make you more creative in your music, either in writing or performing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was in a recording studio in Colorado, Caribou Ranch, and I saw my manager John Reid sniffing something. Now, I was very naive up to that point. I didn't even know what marijuana was. I didn't know "}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 37, "text": "Is that why you describe yourself as having become something of a voyeur?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 38, "text": "Kind of setting up scenes and watching?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 39, "text": "Yeah. And you say that in the book, so - yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I - yes, I would - I liked to watch. And..."}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 40, "text": "Oh, that's really interesting. So in some ways, it saved your life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And I think that's probably why I didn't get HIV, and I didn't get AIDS in the 1980s because I didn't participate as much as watch."}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 41, "text": "And that was before you even knew about HIV?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It did. Cocaine nearly killed me, but it saved me as well because I liked to watch. And it fulfilled my fantasies, so I didn't really participate in much sex."}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 42, "text": "Did you ever fear that cocaine and alcohol were turning you into, like, the stereotype of the spoiled, entitled rock star?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And then, of course, it happened so quickly, the terror of it all. And then, you know, there are The New York Times stories and people - John Reid's personal assistant, Neil Carter, died of AIDS"}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 43, "text": "And just to refresh people's memories, Ryan White was a boy who had hemophilia and got AIDS through a blood transfusion.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, of course, and that's what made it even worse. I mean, when Ryan White was in Indianapolis dying for that week, which I was there for, I came home to..."}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 44, "text": "And you became aware of him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 45, "text": "You know he was a fan.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I befriended the family, yeah."}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 46, "text": "Yeah. And you befriended the family.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 47, "text": "You wanted to go into rehab and found that a lot of the rehab clinics wouldn't take you because they handled people with single addictions, and you had several. You had a food addiction, a cocaine addiction, an alcohol addiction.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I knew the family. And for the last week of his life, along with a lot of other people who were friends of the family, I was there in Indianapolis at the hospital kind of being Jeanne White's - his mo"}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 48, "text": "And so the place that you did go to is, like, a general hospital in Chicago with, you know, no fancy amenities.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 49, "text": "It wasn't, like, a rehab for celebrities or anything. And it sounds like that was pretty humbling for you but very productive.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 50, "text": "You almost left rehab because - well, one of the reasons why, anyway, was when it got to talk of a higher power, when it got to, as you describe it, the God talk, you felt like that is just, like, not for me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was exactly what I needed. There were no celebrity rehabs then. There were no rehabs with televisions and things like that. I'm totally against those kind of things. I was at boot camp. I got up at"}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 51, "text": "And you really thought seriously about leaving. So I'd like to know what upset you so much about the God talk and if you were able to find a way into that talk and kind - to turn it toward who you were.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 52, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk a little bit more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Elton John. He has a new memoir called \"Me.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the God thing, I just - I was angry at - God, for me, represented, you know, a punishment. You know, God will punish you for doing this; God will punish you for doing that. I hated the word God."}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 53, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and if you're just joining us, my guest is Elton John. He has a new memoir called \"Me.\" I was just thinking about the disconnect - I'm thinking about the disconnect between being on stage and having, like, thousands of people, like, screaming for you, just stadium - tens of thousands of people screaming for you and then being offstage and having to contend with your own problems, your - the things that you don't know how to do, your own insecurities and your own failings and your own, you know, extremes and everything. It seems like that must be really hard to connect, like, the famous person who's so beloved and wonderful on stage with the flawed person who's off-stage.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the God thing, I just - I was angry at - God, for me, represented, you know, a punishment. You know, God will punish you for doing this; God will punish you for doing that. I hated the word God."}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 54, "text": "How could you write songs that way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that's why you escape into drugs or alcohol and you just block it out. You block it out until the problem of the thing you're facing becomes such a monumental thing that you explode with rage, and"}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 55, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. The only thing that was a constant, Terry, was that throughout all of this, I still wrote songs because I - music was - again, saved my life. I love touring. I love writing the songs. I "}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 56, "text": "Well, thank goodness you've been sober all these years.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would have seizures, and people would find me on the floor and put me to bed. Twenty minutes later, I'd be up doing cocaine again. I was blue from seizures. And they'd put me into bed and say, we go"}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 57, "text": "It's a long time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have 29 years now. It's been wonderful."}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 58, "text": "So you're married. You have two children now. How long ago did you know you wanted to be a father? Because I'm thinking having the parents that you had wasn't the greatest role model sometimes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I've learned so much."}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 59, "text": "Like, if you don't have great parents, it doesn't speak well for the nuclear family, and you might not want one.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 60, "text": "That's great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I never wanted to be a father. I never wanted to have children until I went to the Ukraine on a visit for the Elton John AIDS Foundation with David to an orphanage in Ukraine. And a young boy there wh"}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 61, "text": "I want to thank you so much for talking with us. It's really been such a pleasure to talk with you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Those boys made me a father."}
{"id": "947574837", "date": "2020-12-18", "guest": "Elton John", "title": "Elton John On Music, Addiction And Family: 'I'm Proud Of Who I Am Now'", "question_index": 62, "text": "Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much."}
{"id": "947962393", "date": "2020-12-21", "guest": "Michael J Fox", "title": "Michael J. Fox Reflects On Life With Parkinson's In 'No Time Like The Future'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Michael J. Fox, has written a new memoir that's about his recent life years after he was diagnosed with early onset Parkinson's disease back in 1991 when he was 29. Parkinson's is a progressive neurological disorder which results in tremors, muscle spasms, balance and coordination problems, diminishment of movement and can also affect mood, sleep and lead to fatigue. Michael J. Fox became famous in his 20s, before Parkinson's, for his role on the hit sitcom \"Family Ties\" as a young conservative who went in the opposite direction of his liberal parents and idolized President Reagan. \"Family Ties\" ran from 1982 to '89. In the middle of its run, in 1985, Fox starred in the international hit \"Back To The Future.\" In the second half of the '90s, he starred in the TV sitcom \"Spin City,\" playing the deputy mayor of New York. His other films include \"The Secret Of My Success,\" \"Doc Hollywood,\" \"Casualties Of War\" and \"The American President.\" He's played characters with Parkinson's or other similar conditions on such shows as \"Rescue Me,\" \"Curb Your Enthusiasm\" and \"The Good Wife.\" He's won five Emmys, four Golden Globes, one Grammy and two Screen Actors Guild Awards. He also founded the Michael J. Fox Foundation for Parkinson's Research, which has raised over $1 billion. His new memoir is called \"No Time Like The Future: An Optimist Considers Mortality.\" Michael J. Fox, welcome to FRESH AIR. Congratulations on your book. It's a pleasure to have you back on the show.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "947962393", "date": "2020-12-21", "guest": "Michael J Fox", "title": "Michael J. Fox Reflects On Life With Parkinson's In 'No Time Like The Future'", "question_index": 1, "text": "The pandemic started just in time for you to write your epilogue. And you write that now everyone is experiencing something you've experienced, which is protecting other people from yourself. Can you explain how that applies to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here."}
{"id": "947962393", "date": "2020-12-21", "guest": "Michael J Fox", "title": "Michael J. Fox Reflects On Life With Parkinson's In 'No Time Like The Future'", "question_index": 2, "text": "I - so I think also, like, there's a sense of vulnerability that you've probably felt that everybody is feeling now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One, in a really basic level, I'm not in complete control of my movement, so at various times, especially if I'm slightly overmedicated, which can happen, my movements can get quite out of control, an"}
{"id": "947962393", "date": "2020-12-21", "guest": "Michael J Fox", "title": "Michael J. Fox Reflects On Life With Parkinson's In 'No Time Like The Future'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Right. You know, what are the limitations you face now physically?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One of the most interesting things about - on a personal level about that, about what was unfolding with this virus is, when it first happened and people were going to quarantine, I called my publishe"}
{"id": "947962393", "date": "2020-12-21", "guest": "Michael J Fox", "title": "Michael J. Fox Reflects On Life With Parkinson's In 'No Time Like The Future'", "question_index": 4, "text": "What about speech?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because of the back - the complication of the back surgery, I have a loss of strength in - less strength in my legs and my limbs and my trunk and my core. So you add that to the spasticity of the Park"}
{"id": "947962393", "date": "2020-12-21", "guest": "Michael J Fox", "title": "Michael J. Fox Reflects On Life With Parkinson's In 'No Time Like The Future'", "question_index": 5, "text": "What's the process been like for you of trying to, you know, over the years come to terms with the fact that you have a condition that is progressive, that - you're not going to heal from it and suddenly not have it anymore?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, speech is clearly - I'm - I can be halting. It can be like right now; it's fairly clear and robust. But it's - words come to me faster than I can speak them. I'll go to say something, and before"}
{"id": "947962393", "date": "2020-12-21", "guest": "Michael J Fox", "title": "Michael J. Fox Reflects On Life With Parkinson's In 'No Time Like The Future'", "question_index": 6, "text": "Let me just stop you for a second, you know, for our listeners who haven't read the book. You had a tumor wrapped around your spinal cord that was choking your spinal cord. And unless you got that tumor removed, you would've been paralyzed because it would have just kept strangling the spinal cord. And it was an incredibly complicated, delicate surgery. And it took a long time to recover from that, requiring a lot of physical therapy, relearning how to walk. And then you're finally done with the main part of the physical therapy. You're able to walk again. And then you fell. It was a day your - most of your family was out on Long Island in...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's the crux of the book, is that with Parkinson's, I kind of, after 30 years, had - have established kind of a detente - like, an agreement. It takes up the space it takes up - and then allo"}
{"id": "947962393", "date": "2020-12-21", "guest": "Michael J Fox", "title": "Michael J. Fox Reflects On Life With Parkinson's In 'No Time Like The Future'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yeah. They were in Martha's Vineyard, and you were home. And one of your daughters had come with you, but you basically sent her back to her home and said, I'm good; I can do this by myself. And then you fell, and no one was there, and it was a really bad fall.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Martha's Vineyard."}
{"id": "947962393", "date": "2020-12-21", "guest": "Michael J Fox", "title": "Michael J. Fox Reflects On Life With Parkinson's In 'No Time Like The Future'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, you know, you write at some point, you started to question the optimism that you tried to maintain over the years and the optimism you tried to convey to others and realized that you hadn't given equal weight to your failures. What do you mean by that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a low point. When it happened - so as you say, my daughter came back with me from Martha's Vineyard. The rest of the family stayed there. She had to go to work the next day, so she asked me if "}
{"id": "947962393", "date": "2020-12-21", "guest": "Michael J Fox", "title": "Michael J. Fox Reflects On Life With Parkinson's In 'No Time Like The Future'", "question_index": 9, "text": "So if you're trying to adjust your optimism to recognize failure as well and not paint an unrealistic - an unrealistically rosy present or future, where does that leave - like, what's the narrative in your head now that you tell yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think I was so concentrated on what was going right that I hadn't - not that my failures were overwhelming but to just admit that there's another side to things that as much as I always say, s"}
{"id": "947962393", "date": "2020-12-21", "guest": "Michael J Fox", "title": "Michael J. Fox Reflects On Life With Parkinson's In 'No Time Like The Future'", "question_index": 10, "text": "You like taking risks. And you write, risk is part of who I am. It's encoded in my DNA. And when you were young, you wanted to prove that just because you were short, it didn't mean that you didn't have strength and fortitude. So that - you were game for doing anything. So what are some of the more, like, reckless activities that you engaged in as a young man or as a teenager?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it kind of put together over events that transpired afterwards and also events prior - episodes in my life - culminating in the passing of my father-in-law, Stephen Pollan. He was a very importa"}
{"id": "947962393", "date": "2020-12-21", "guest": "Michael J Fox", "title": "Michael J. Fox Reflects On Life With Parkinson's In 'No Time Like The Future'", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, just by virtue of my size, I - playing any organized team sport in Canada - which for this peaceful, passive, lovely country that everybody imagines it to be, really engaged in some violent bloo"}
{"id": "947962393", "date": "2020-12-21", "guest": "Michael J Fox", "title": "Michael J. Fox Reflects On Life With Parkinson's In 'No Time Like The Future'", "question_index": 12, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Michael J. Fox. His new memoir is called \"No Time Like The Future: An Optimist Considers Mortality.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it was just always things like that. I think we were just reckless. You know, in the wintertime, we'd grab on to the bumpers of cars driving in the snow and ski along behind them, much the same as"}
{"id": "947962393", "date": "2020-12-21", "guest": "Michael J Fox", "title": "Michael J. Fox Reflects On Life With Parkinson's In 'No Time Like The Future'", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Michael J. Fox. His new memoir is called \"No Time Like The Future: An Optimist Considers Mortality.\" So your wife, Tracy Pollan - she was also on \"Family Ties.\" She played your girlfriend. Did playing boyfriend and girlfriend on TV lead to being real boyfriend and girlfriend lead to being husband and wife?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it was just always things like that. I think we were just reckless. You know, in the wintertime, we'd grab on to the bumpers of cars driving in the snow and ski along behind them, much the same as"}
{"id": "947962393", "date": "2020-12-21", "guest": "Michael J Fox", "title": "Michael J. Fox Reflects On Life With Parkinson's In 'No Time Like The Future'", "question_index": 14, "text": "You were diagnosed with Parkinson's two years after you got married. Were you worried it would break up the marriage, that everything - like, all of the givens that you got married under were no longer givens?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I developed a crush on her right away. When she left the show - the day she left the show, we were in the parking lot getting into our respective cars. She was getting into a rented Volkswagen, and I "}
{"id": "947962393", "date": "2020-12-21", "guest": "Michael J Fox", "title": "Michael J. Fox Reflects On Life With Parkinson's In 'No Time Like The Future'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Were you afraid that she wouldn't stick with you after that, that she'd kind of cut out because your life was going to change, and you were going to need help?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was shocking when I was diagnosed. I was diagnosed completely out of the blue, unexpectedly. I thought I had a sports injury, and I saw a neurologist at the recommendation of my physical therapist."}
{"id": "947962393", "date": "2020-12-21", "guest": "Michael J Fox", "title": "Michael J. Fox Reflects On Life With Parkinson's In 'No Time Like The Future'", "question_index": 16, "text": "But you say it was your drinking that really threatened the marriage because you were drinking a lot even at that time when you were diagnosed. So how was that threatening the marriage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I didn't know - we didn't know what we'd - what I'd need. It was like a truck coming down the street, and I knew it was going to hit me, but I didn't know how fast and how soon. I knew the sympt"}
{"id": "947962393", "date": "2020-12-21", "guest": "Michael J Fox", "title": "Michael J. Fox Reflects On Life With Parkinson's In 'No Time Like The Future'", "question_index": 17, "text": "You know, one of the things you say about your wife, Tracy, is that - you say, it's not that she feels my pain; it's that she acknowledges my pain and would do anything to relieve it. I think that's such a nice distinction. Can you talk about that a little bit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it was silly. I was a cliche cartoon of a 25-year-old with success in Hollywood. I had a Ferrari. I had a house in Laurel Canyon. I had all of the trappings. And then I met Tracy, who convince"}
{"id": "947962393", "date": "2020-12-21", "guest": "Michael J Fox", "title": "Michael J. Fox Reflects On Life With Parkinson's In 'No Time Like The Future'", "question_index": 18, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Michael J. Fox. His new memoir is called \"No Time Like The Future: An Optimist Considers Mortality.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Tracy knows - she knows from being with me that she can't assume she knows everything I feel. She doesn't know everything. She might know 90% of what I feel, like, in ways that no one else can u"}
{"id": "947962393", "date": "2020-12-21", "guest": "Michael J Fox", "title": "Michael J. Fox Reflects On Life With Parkinson's In 'No Time Like The Future'", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Michael J. Fox. His new memoir is called \"No Time Like The Future: An Optimist Considers Mortality.\" It's about his recent life and the impact of Parkinson's disease, which he was diagnosed with back in 1991 when he was 29. Fox starred in the '80s hit sitcom \"Family Ties\" and the '90s hit sitcom \"Spin City.\" He starred in the 1985 blockbuster film \"Back To The Future.\" His other films include \"The Secret Of My Success,\" \"Doc Hollywood,\" \"Casualties Of War\" and \"The American President.\" After his Parkinson's symptoms progressed, he took roles on TV shows portraying characters who had Parkinson's or conditions with similar symptoms. So you say you had to learn to stop covering up, that you had Parkinson's. Were you diagnosed before or during your starring role on \"Spin City,\" the TV series?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Tracy knows - she knows from being with me that she can't assume she knows everything I feel. She doesn't know everything. She might know 90% of what I feel, like, in ways that no one else can u"}
{"id": "947962393", "date": "2020-12-21", "guest": "Michael J Fox", "title": "Michael J. Fox Reflects On Life With Parkinson's In 'No Time Like The Future'", "question_index": 20, "text": "Had you hidden Parkinson's from the people who you worked with on \"Spin City,\" including the creator, Gary David Goldberg?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Spin City\" was when I - I had had Parkinson's for seven years and told very few people about it, except my family. And I was traveling around doing films early on in my diagnosis and was away from my"}
{"id": "947962393", "date": "2020-12-21", "guest": "Michael J Fox", "title": "Michael J. Fox Reflects On Life With Parkinson's In 'No Time Like The Future'", "question_index": 21, "text": "So in the '80s on \"Family Ties,\" you played, you know, a young man who is very conservative, idolizes President Reagan. You were very different than your parents, who are very liberal. Your father, in fact, ran a public TV station on the show. That was always fun for me", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I shared with Gary - at that point, I was very comfortable. I could hide symptoms in a number of ways that I developed. So I felt confident that I could do it. And he said he would know - if I had"}
{"id": "947962393", "date": "2020-12-21", "guest": "Michael J Fox", "title": "Michael J. Fox Reflects On Life With Parkinson's In 'No Time Like The Future'", "question_index": 22, "text": "to see. Your politics are very different than that. They were then, I think, and they certainly are now. Something you say in the book makes me think Nancy Reagan either donated to your foundation or loaned her name to it. What was her relationship to it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I shared with Gary - at that point, I was very comfortable. I could hide symptoms in a number of ways that I developed. So I felt confident that I could do it. And he said he would know - if I had"}
{"id": "947962393", "date": "2020-12-21", "guest": "Michael J Fox", "title": "Michael J. Fox Reflects On Life With Parkinson's In 'No Time Like The Future'", "question_index": 23, "text": "What was it like for you to work with her after having, when you were younger, played somebody who, you know, idolized her husband but that's not the way you felt in real life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She - based on her experience as the spouse of a person with Alzheimer's, she saw the value in exploring stem cell research. And so while most conservative Republicans opposed stem cell research and P"}
{"id": "947962393", "date": "2020-12-21", "guest": "Michael J Fox", "title": "Michael J. Fox Reflects On Life With Parkinson's In 'No Time Like The Future'", "question_index": 24, "text": "How closely have you been following politics now and the Trump presidency?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So there are things that I had disagreements with that I just didn't relate to. But I played this guy who loved him, and so I had to find the lovability in him and he loved the show. And he - I say in"}
{"id": "947962393", "date": "2020-12-21", "guest": "Michael J Fox", "title": "Michael J. Fox Reflects On Life With Parkinson's In 'No Time Like The Future'", "question_index": 25, "text": "What was your reaction when he kind of mimicked and mocked the journalist who had - I can't remember what his condition was, but he had a lot of tremors and coordination issues.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Too close."}
{"id": "947962393", "date": "2020-12-21", "guest": "Michael J Fox", "title": "Michael J. Fox Reflects On Life With Parkinson's In 'No Time Like The Future'", "question_index": 26, "text": "The subtitle of your new memoir is \"An Optimist Considers Mortality,\" and I'm wondering what your thoughts are when you think about death, which is hopefully a long ways away, you're only 59. But, you know, the title of your book is about mortality. What are the things that most worry you or that other people worry about that you don't when you think about mortality?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a gut punch. But at that time, his cruelty toward other people and other groups was already established. I mean, from the minute he said Mexicans are rapists and just this litany of garbage tha"}
{"id": "947962393", "date": "2020-12-21", "guest": "Michael J Fox", "title": "Michael J. Fox Reflects On Life With Parkinson's In 'No Time Like The Future'", "question_index": 27, "text": "You know, you say that the last thing to go is the future, but some people believe that there is a future after death, that there's an afterlife. Do you and did you ever believe that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, other people worry about - as relates to me, they worry about the sharp, sudden falling and hitting my head or do something that's going to result from my Parkinson's, not the kind of associated"}
{"id": "947962393", "date": "2020-12-21", "guest": "Michael J Fox", "title": "Michael J. Fox Reflects On Life With Parkinson's In 'No Time Like The Future'", "question_index": 28, "text": "Michael J. Fox, thank you so much for talking with us and thank you for being so generous with your time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If I get to the bottom of the Cracker Jack box, then there's a prize, I'm happy. But if there isn't, I just enjoy the Cracker Jack. My happiness here doesn't depend on something that it's awaiting me "}
{"id": "947962393", "date": "2020-12-21", "guest": "Michael J Fox", "title": "Michael J. Fox Reflects On Life With Parkinson's In 'No Time Like The Future'", "question_index": 29, "text": "Michael J. Fox's new memoir is called \"No Time Like The Future: An Optimist Considers Mortality.\" After we take a short break, Maureen Corrigan will review a newly reprinted novel from 1948 by Betty Smith, who also wrote \"A Tree Grows In Brooklyn.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My great pleasure."}
{"id": "949578530", "date": "2020-12-23", "guest": "Chuck Collins", "title": "How COVID-19 Became A 'Tremendous Windfall' For The Ultra Rich", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. While millions of Americans have lost their jobs because of the pandemic, the combined wealth of just 10 billionaires has increased by more than $127 billion since the beginning of the pandemic. Those billionaires include the principal owners of Amazon, Instacart, Walmart and Tyson Foods. My guest, Chuck Collins, has been writing about that and how the pandemic has increased income inequality in the U.S. Economic inequality has been his subject since he was 26 and gave away his inheritance. Collins is the great-grandson of Oscar Mayer, the founder of the meatpacking company famous for its hot dogs, the Oscar Mayer wiener, and the Wienermobile. Collins is the director of the Program on Inequality and the Common Good at the Institute for Policy Studies, where he co-edits inequality.org. His books include \"Born On Third Base: A One Percenter Makes The Case For Tackling Inequality, Bringing Wealth Home, And Committing To The Common Good\" and the forthcoming \"The Wealth Hoarders: How Billionaires Pay Millions To Hide Trillions.\" That book is scheduled for publication in March. Chuck Collins, welcome to FRESH AIR. It's a pleasure to have you on our show.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "949578530", "date": "2020-12-23", "guest": "Chuck Collins", "title": "How COVID-19 Became A 'Tremendous Windfall' For The Ultra Rich", "question_index": 1, "text": "Who are the billionaires who made the most money since the start of the pandemic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "949578530", "date": "2020-12-23", "guest": "Chuck Collins", "title": "How COVID-19 Became A 'Tremendous Windfall' For The Ultra Rich", "question_index": 2, "text": "So is the numbers that you're giving us, is that linked to the stock market? - because the stock market fluctuates so much. It can go up, you know, hundreds of points or go down hundreds of points.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there's an overall trend. You know, 657 billionaires have seen their combined wealth go up a trillion since mid-March. But there's a couple that have just seen their wealth surge. Elon Musk seen"}
{"id": "949578530", "date": "2020-12-23", "guest": "Chuck Collins", "title": "How COVID-19 Became A 'Tremendous Windfall' For The Ultra Rich", "question_index": 3, "text": "So some of the companies that have had their, you know, wealth increased vastly during the pandemic are providing services so many people are using, like Amazon and Instacart, helping people get what they need without having to go to stores where they could be exposed to the virus. In that sense, it's no surprise that they're doing really well during the pandemic. But is the money that the companies are making being reflected in the pay or the protection of the workers who are making these services possible?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. The stock market has been steadily going up as well. But some of these billionaires have just seen their wealth surge, you know, in the double digits or much higher than the market itself. I mea"}
{"id": "949578530", "date": "2020-12-23", "guest": "Chuck Collins", "title": "How COVID-19 Became A 'Tremendous Windfall' For The Ultra Rich", "question_index": 4, "text": "You have some recommendations for what the leaders of these companies could be doing to help protect their workers and acknowledge the risk that they're taking in providing the services that they provide.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. And that's one of the things I think we've been trying to point out in our reports is that these companies are benefiting from having their competition effectively shut down during the pandemic. A"}
{"id": "949578530", "date": "2020-12-23", "guest": "Chuck Collins", "title": "How COVID-19 Became A 'Tremendous Windfall' For The Ultra Rich", "question_index": 5, "text": "So do you have any idea of how many workers at Amazon or Instacart or Tyson Foods have gotten COVID or have died from COVID? And do you think those companies could have done more to protect them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. I mean, they should be paying hazard pay. If you remember, at the beginning of the pandemic, there was a much broader societal recognition of the role of essential, front line workers, tha"}
{"id": "949578530", "date": "2020-12-23", "guest": "Chuck Collins", "title": "How COVID-19 Became A 'Tremendous Windfall' For The Ultra Rich", "question_index": 6, "text": "If you had your way, you'd want to institute an emergency pandemic wealth tax on billionaires. What would your intention be if you had your way, which you don't? And I should say, the suggestion you're about to make is probably never going to happen in the near future.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Amazon, by its own admission, has had over 20,000 employees infected with COVID. Several of them have died. That was in October. I've talked to lots of Amazon workers, Amazon workers who work in wareh"}
{"id": "949578530", "date": "2020-12-23", "guest": "Chuck Collins", "title": "How COVID-19 Became A 'Tremendous Windfall' For The Ultra Rich", "question_index": 7, "text": "Jeff Bezos is a centibillionaire, which means he has over $100 billion. Several other people became centibillionaires during the course of the pandemic. Who are they?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's important to talk about it even if our captured political system isn't capable of it. I think it's a commonsense idea. You know, you have a group of 650 people whose wealth has gone up a "}
{"id": "949578530", "date": "2020-12-23", "guest": "Chuck Collins", "title": "How COVID-19 Became A 'Tremendous Windfall' For The Ultra Rich", "question_index": 8, "text": "Meanwhile, MacKenzie Scott, who used to be married to Jeff Bezos, gave away $6 billion in gifts to hundreds of organizations this year alone. What is her approach to giving away parts of her fortune?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they are the the top four in the U.S., Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk, Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg. And there's one centibillionaire in France. But that's a new thing. I mean, we - you know, Jeff Bezos w"}
{"id": "949578530", "date": "2020-12-23", "guest": "Chuck Collins", "title": "How COVID-19 Became A 'Tremendous Windfall' For The Ultra Rich", "question_index": 9, "text": "Another thing she's doing is giving away this money with no strings attached. Often when you get a grant, it's for a very specific purpose, and that purpose might not be what your organization most needs to survive. It might be just what's most fundable. But she has no strings attached. You don't have to pledge to use it for a specific purpose. You can - I think she's been saying, use your judgment. I trust you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think she's made a couple of really great first moves. You know, unlike a lot of these billionaires, she's not creating a kind of perpetual legacy foundation that's going to be around for gene"}
{"id": "949578530", "date": "2020-12-23", "guest": "Chuck Collins", "title": "How COVID-19 Became A 'Tremendous Windfall' For The Ultra Rich", "question_index": 10, "text": "I've heard you make an interesting comparison between the tax laws of the 1950s and the programs of the 1950s that help bring people into the middle class compared to the tax system that we have now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, she's communicating with a bit of humility that she doesn't understand all the issues. But basically she's communicating that I trust you to do the right thing with this money. And I'm not going"}
{"id": "949578530", "date": "2020-12-23", "guest": "Chuck Collins", "title": "How COVID-19 Became A 'Tremendous Windfall' For The Ultra Rich", "question_index": 11, "text": "So let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Chuck Collins. He's the director of the Program on Inequality and the Common Good at the Institute for Policy Studies, where he co-edits inequality.org. We'll be back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, in a way, the tax system of the post-war - post-World War II era helped fund a shared prosperity economy. You know, we taxed the wealthy, and it was invested in infrastructure, access to"}
{"id": "949578530", "date": "2020-12-23", "guest": "Chuck Collins", "title": "How COVID-19 Became A 'Tremendous Windfall' For The Ultra Rich", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Chuck Collins, who's been writing about how the pandemic has widened the gap between the super rich and everyone else. He directs the Program on Inequality and the Common Good at the Institute for Policy Studies, where he co-edits inequality.org. He's the author of the forthcoming book, \"The Wealth Hoarders: How Billionaires Pay Millions To Hide Trillions.\" That's scheduled for publication in March. You've been working against economic inequality for most of your adult life. Your great-grandfather was Oscar Mayer of the meatpacking company, famous for its hot dogs, the Oscar Mayer Wiener. People might remember the Wienermobile, which was like a hot dog on wheels - a huge hot dog on wheels that would travel around. You inherited money when, I think, you were 21. Five years later, you decided to give it away. Why did you decide to do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, in a way, the tax system of the post-war - post-World War II era helped fund a shared prosperity economy. You know, we taxed the wealthy, and it was invested in infrastructure, access to"}
{"id": "949578530", "date": "2020-12-23", "guest": "Chuck Collins", "title": "How COVID-19 Became A 'Tremendous Windfall' For The Ultra Rich", "question_index": 13, "text": "Did you save a financial cushion for yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think in my 20s, I had kind of a revelation, which was, you know, I'd been, like a lot of wealthy people, raised in a bubble - suburban Bloomfield Hills, Mich. Occasionally I would notice that"}
{"id": "949578530", "date": "2020-12-23", "guest": "Chuck Collins", "title": "How COVID-19 Became A 'Tremendous Windfall' For The Ultra Rich", "question_index": 14, "text": "I know that some people told you that you were being selfish in giving away your money because you were depriving the next generation of your family from inheriting the money that you inherited and inheriting those advantages that you inherited. What's your response to that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I grew up in a sort of a Catholic worker, Dorothy Day culture, and I just felt like the wealth was almost a spiritual barrier to making my own way. Now, in retrospect - so the answer is no, "}
{"id": "949578530", "date": "2020-12-23", "guest": "Chuck Collins", "title": "How COVID-19 Became A 'Tremendous Windfall' For The Ultra Rich", "question_index": 15, "text": "Can you be more specific about that point, about how the wealthy use the levers of power to keep their wealth?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, you know, within wealthy families, there are several cardinal rules, and one of them is don't touch the principle. Don't touch the corpus of assets because we're all just passing through, and if"}
{"id": "949578530", "date": "2020-12-23", "guest": "Chuck Collins", "title": "How COVID-19 Became A 'Tremendous Windfall' For The Ultra Rich", "question_index": 16, "text": "Are you finding that there's a culture of people who are wealthy who want to do good things with their money and who want to have progressive tax policies, people who, perhaps, you're working with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, if you look at the list of billionaires, there's some fairly wealthy families. I mean, we're seeing the Mars candy family in the fourth generation on the Forbes list, you know, the Koch "}
{"id": "949578530", "date": "2020-12-23", "guest": "Chuck Collins", "title": "How COVID-19 Became A 'Tremendous Windfall' For The Ultra Rich", "question_index": 17, "text": "Chuck Collins, thank you so much for coming on our show. I wish you a healthy 2021 and a year better than this year has been.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. There's actually a network called the Patriotic Millionaires, which is a couple hundred, you know, high-net-worth business leaders and millionaires and billionaires who are actually publicly lob"}
{"id": "949578530", "date": "2020-12-23", "guest": "Chuck Collins", "title": "How COVID-19 Became A 'Tremendous Windfall' For The Ultra Rich", "question_index": 18, "text": "My guest has been Chuck Collins, director of the Program on Inequality and the Common Good at the Institute for Policy Studies, where he co-edits inequality.org. After we take a short break, we'll hear from Jeff Tweedy of the band Wilco. He has a new book about songwriting and his approach to writing songs. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wishing you and everyone else the same."}
{"id": "949830795", "date": "2020-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "949830795", "date": "2020-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 1, "text": "That's Rosemary Clooney. As a star of the 1954 movie \"White Christmas,\" Clooney is one of the singers most associated with Irving Berlin's famous Christmas song. We're going to hear the onstage interview with and performance by Clooney that I recorded with her in 1997 at the Herbst Theatre in San Francisco in an event produced and presented by the City Arts & Lecture series under the direction of the late Sidney Goldstein. As the citation said in Clooney's 1995 ASCAP Award, she is one of the best friends a song ever had. Clooney had big pop hits in the 1950s like \"Come On-A My House,\" \"Hey There\" and \"Mambo Italiano.\" But she also made splendid jazz albums. I love her singing and feel so lucky to have recorded this with her. She died five years after this recording. Accompanying her, we'll hear Charlie McCarthy, saxophone; Larry Souza, trumpet; Seward McCain, bass; Colin Bailey, drums; with pianist John Otto, who was Clooney's music director. He died last year. From our archive, here's Rosemary Clooney.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I'm dreaming of a white Christmas just like the ones I used know."}
{"id": "949830795", "date": "2020-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 2, "text": "I would like to go back with you to your childhood, when you first started performing...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's wonderful. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you."}
{"id": "949830795", "date": "2020-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 3, "text": "Now, I know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Really?"}
{"id": "949830795", "date": "2020-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 4, "text": "You used to sing with your sister, Betty.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That far?"}
{"id": "949830795", "date": "2020-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 5, "text": "And when you were girls, you sang together. And I know one of the places that you performed was - what? - was it your grandfather who was the mayor of Maysville?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "949830795", "date": "2020-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 6, "text": "And I know you performed at his campaigns.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes. Right."}
{"id": "949830795", "date": "2020-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 7, "text": "So set the scene for me. What was it like when you were girls performing for the campaign of your grandfather in Maysville, Ky.? What did you sing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "949830795", "date": "2020-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 8, "text": "What were you like on stage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh."}
{"id": "949830795", "date": "2020-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well, I asked you to choose a song to sing this evening that would evoke your childhood in Kentucky.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We just - we would stand on the street corners and sing songs that he liked, particularly. There was an old - there's an old (singing) spinning wheel in the parlor, and there's \"An (ph) Old Covered Br"}
{"id": "949830795", "date": "2020-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 10, "text": "And so you're going to sing \"Danny Boy,\" which you also recorded on your \"Demi-Centennial\" album.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "949830795", "date": "2020-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 11, "text": "Tell me why you chose this song and what it means to you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "949830795", "date": "2020-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 12, "text": "This though - you do this so beautifully. Would you sing it for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Why didn't you do an Irish song, Rosemary? A nice Irish song would have been nice in the album. You know how many times I've heard that? So I get \"Danny Boy\" right out of the way. First song in the al"}
{"id": "949830795", "date": "2020-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 13, "text": "Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I will, Terry."}
{"id": "949830795", "date": "2020-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 14, "text": "I think that just kind of sums up one of the many reasons I love Rosemary Clooney. You can take a song I've heard a million times and make me hear it in a way I've never heard it before.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "949830795", "date": "2020-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 15, "text": "Now, this was the period right after World War II.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. Thank you."}
{"id": "949830795", "date": "2020-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 16, "text": "And the songs that were popular during the Second World War had such emotional value for people. And I'm sure you were singing some of those songs, yes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "949830795", "date": "2020-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 17, "text": "What did those songs mean to you and what was your experience of the Second World War?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Surely."}
{"id": "949830795", "date": "2020-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 18, "text": "I asked you to choose a song from the World War II period, a song very popular then. And you chose to sing \"I'll Be Seeing You.\" What does this song mean to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my grandmother had four kids in the service, and so there were four stars on the flag in the window. And there were a lot of those flags around, you know? And I remember seeing all the movies, y"}
{"id": "949830795", "date": "2020-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 19, "text": "Then please sing it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If I talk about it, I won't be able to sing it."}
{"id": "949830795", "date": "2020-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 20, "text": "I wouldn't miss this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "949830795", "date": "2020-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 21, "text": "That was beautiful.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I'll be seeing you in every lovely summer's day, in everything that's warm and gay. I'll always think of you that way. I'll find you in the morning sun and when the night is new. I'll be loo"}
{"id": "949830795", "date": "2020-12-25", "guest": "Rosemary Clooney", "title": "'White Christmas': A Holiday Concert With Rosemary Clooney", "question_index": 22, "text": "Rosemary Clooney, recorded in 1997 at the Herbst Theatre in San Francisco as part of the City Arts & Lecture series. We also heard John Otto on piano; Charlie McCarthy, saxophone; Larry Souza, trumpet; Seward McCain, bass; and Colin Bailey, drums. That concert was nearly 25 years ago. Since then, we've lost three of the people who were onstage that evening. Rosemary Clooney died in 2002. Her music director, John Otto, who we heard at the piano, died last year. The event was produced by the founding director of City Arts & Lectures, Sydney Goldstein, with her then-associate director Kathryn Barcos (ph). Sydney died in 2018. It was wonderful to work with her and become friends. Monday on FRESH AIR, our guest will be Scott Frank, creator of the popular Netflix series \"The Queen's Gambit.\" Frank also created the Western series \"Godless\" and wrote the screenplays for \"Minority Report,\" \"Get Shorty,\" \"Wolverine,\" \"Out of Sight\" and the X-Men film \"Logan.\" I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much. Thank you. Thank you (unintelligible)."}
{"id": "949835712", "date": "2020-12-25", "guest": "Rebecca Kilgore", "title": "'Fresh Air' Presents Swinging Christmas Music From Rebecca Kilgore And Pals", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Well, many of us can't be where we want to be this Christmas or celebrate the holiday with the friends and family we hope to be with. But no matter where you are and whether you're with friends, family or alone today, we hope you enjoy the music we're going to present. First, we go into our archive for this 2005 holiday concert by jazz singer Rebecca Kilgore. We like her so much. We've had her perform several times on the show. In The Wall Street Journal, Will Friedwald described Kilgore as the living embodiment of the hippest singers of the big-band era. She's made over 50 albums - including solo albums, albums with Dave Frishberg and with the Rebecca Kilgore Quartet, which was formerly known as BED. The trombonist from the quartet, Dan Barrett, joined her for this performance, along with Italian pianist Rossano Sportiello.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "949835712", "date": "2020-12-25", "guest": "Rebecca Kilgore", "title": "'Fresh Air' Presents Swinging Christmas Music From Rebecca Kilgore And Pals", "question_index": 1, "text": "Dan, Rossano, Becky, welcome, all of you, to FRESH AIR. Becky, you've chosen some songs that I'm confident will be new - Christmas songs that will be new to most of our listeners, even though they are very old songs. But I'd like to start with a familiar one, one that happens to be one of my favorites. Would you introduce it for us?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "949835712", "date": "2020-12-25", "guest": "Rebecca Kilgore", "title": "'Fresh Air' Presents Swinging Christmas Music From Rebecca Kilgore And Pals", "question_index": 2, "text": "That was a beautiful rendition of that. Thank you, Becky. Rossano Sportiello is at the piano, Dan Barrett on trombone. It's funny how some of the most beautiful Christmas songs are the sad ones.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. It's also one of my favorites. It's from a 1944 movie, \"Meet Me In St. Louis.\" It was sung by Judy Garland. And let's dedicate it to Hugh Martin. He co-wrote it with Ralph Blane. It's so pretty."}
{"id": "949835712", "date": "2020-12-25", "guest": "Rebecca Kilgore", "title": "'Fresh Air' Presents Swinging Christmas Music From Rebecca Kilgore And Pals", "question_index": 3, "text": "Becky, is Christmas a good time for a singer? Do you look forward to having to sing all the Christmas songs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it is a sad song, but that's part of the bittersweet pathos of the season."}
{"id": "949835712", "date": "2020-12-25", "guest": "Rebecca Kilgore", "title": "'Fresh Air' Presents Swinging Christmas Music From Rebecca Kilgore And Pals", "question_index": 4, "text": "I'd like to really just go around the room for a second and ask you all to name a song that you really love from Christmas and a song that you are really tired of or you think is really musically trite, and you wish it would be put aside for a good many years. Dan, you want to start?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. You get to bring out your old friends from the previous - last year songs that you haven't had a chance to sing all year. And people really resonate with them, so it's a lot of fun."}
{"id": "949835712", "date": "2020-12-25", "guest": "Rebecca Kilgore", "title": "'Fresh Air' Presents Swinging Christmas Music From Rebecca Kilgore And Pals", "question_index": 5, "text": ". Rossano, do you hear a lot of these songs in Italy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I guess my favorite would be \"O Little Town Of Bethlehem.\" I remember when I was first starting to play trombone, and my friends and I would get together and play all of the old traditional Chri"}
{"id": "949835712", "date": "2020-12-25", "guest": "Rebecca Kilgore", "title": "'Fresh Air' Presents Swinging Christmas Music From Rebecca Kilgore And Pals", "question_index": 6, "text": "How true. How true.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. But, you know, I'm sorry for Rebecca, but I should say that my favorite Christmas song is just \"Jingle Bells,\" you know, because I'm a fan of Fats Waller. And he recorded that playing that stride"}
{"id": "949835712", "date": "2020-12-25", "guest": "Rebecca Kilgore", "title": "'Fresh Air' Presents Swinging Christmas Music From Rebecca Kilgore And Pals", "question_index": 7, "text": "Becky, do you have a favorite song and one you'd like to see retired?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So that's why."}
{"id": "949835712", "date": "2020-12-25", "guest": "Rebecca Kilgore", "title": "'Fresh Air' Presents Swinging Christmas Music From Rebecca Kilgore And Pals", "question_index": 8, "text": "OK. Well, I promised our listeners some songs that they probably are not familiar with. So you've got another one - one that Bessie Smith recorded.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm going to plead the Fifth because I think it's incumbent upon the musician to make what they can out of a song. You know, we've already done \"Have Yourself A Merry Little Christmas.\" I think that's"}
{"id": "949835712", "date": "2020-12-25", "guest": "Rebecca Kilgore", "title": "'Fresh Air' Presents Swinging Christmas Music From Rebecca Kilgore And Pals", "question_index": 9, "text": "That's a great song. Thanks for doing that. A song from - what? - 1925?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, 1925 - early Bessie Smith. It was a - I guess, quite a hit for her. It's called \"At The Christmas Ball.\" One, two - one, two, three. (Singing) Christmas comes but once a year. And to me, it bring"}
{"id": "949835712", "date": "2020-12-25", "guest": "Rebecca Kilgore", "title": "'Fresh Air' Presents Swinging Christmas Music From Rebecca Kilgore And Pals", "question_index": 10, "text": "That was Becky Kilgore singing, with Dan Barrett on trombone and Rossano Sportiello at the piano. And he's visiting New York from Italy, where he lives. How about another winter song for our end of the year concert, one that I think should be one of the winter classics along with \"Let It Snow\" and \"Baby, It's Cold Outside.\" And this is one written by your friend, Becky, and a great friend of our show, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm hmm."}
{"id": "949835712", "date": "2020-12-25", "guest": "Rebecca Kilgore", "title": "'Fresh Air' Presents Swinging Christmas Music From Rebecca Kilgore And Pals", "question_index": 11, "text": "Great song, a song written by Dave Frishberg and performed for us today by singer Becky Kilgore, trombonist Dan Barrett and at the piano Rossano Sportiello at the piano. And he's visiting New York from Italy, where he lives. Well, next song we're going to do - this is a really fun novelty jazz song. Becky?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. We've been on your show many times. Dave Frishberg - he's a cohort from Portland, Ore. And he wrote this song in 1994. And it's exciting, I actually remember when he wrote it. And I love it very"}
{"id": "949835712", "date": "2020-12-25", "guest": "Rebecca Kilgore", "title": "'Fresh Air' Presents Swinging Christmas Music From Rebecca Kilgore And Pals", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, Becky, I have to thank you for introducing us to that song and for such a great performance of it. And that's singer Becky Kilgore, Rossano Sportiello at the piano, Dan Barrett on trombone. Well, at this point in our end of the year concert, I'd like you to do a song that is really about not being able to be home for Christmas, although it's called \"I'll Be Home For Christmas.\" Would you sing it for us, Becky?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a great song, and I'm very excited about doing it. It's called \"Santa Claus Blues.\" It's quite old. It's from 1924. And we actually borrowed a portion of an arrangement by John Sheridan of this s"}
{"id": "949835712", "date": "2020-12-25", "guest": "Rebecca Kilgore", "title": "'Fresh Air' Presents Swinging Christmas Music From Rebecca Kilgore And Pals", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to our concert by singer Rebecca Kilgore, with trombonist Dan Barrett and pianist Rossano Sportiello. It was a concert of Christmas and winter songs. But the year we recorded the concert - 2005 - marked the centennial of Harold Arlen's birth. So we asked the performers to do a couple of Arlen songs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I sure will. It's by Kim Gannon, Walter Kent and Buck Ram - 1943 - \"I'll Be Home For Christmas.\" (Singing) I'm dreaming tonight of a place I love even more than I usually do. And although I know it's "}
{"id": "949835712", "date": "2020-12-25", "guest": "Rebecca Kilgore", "title": "'Fresh Air' Presents Swinging Christmas Music From Rebecca Kilgore And Pals", "question_index": 14, "text": "Becky, the first one you're going to do is - it's a great rhythm song. And you're such a great rhythm singer, so I'm glad you chose this one. Why do you love it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I sure will. It's by Kim Gannon, Walter Kent and Buck Ram - 1943 - \"I'll Be Home For Christmas.\" (Singing) I'm dreaming tonight of a place I love even more than I usually do. And although I know it's "}
{"id": "949835712", "date": "2020-12-25", "guest": "Rebecca Kilgore", "title": "'Fresh Air' Presents Swinging Christmas Music From Rebecca Kilgore And Pals", "question_index": 15, "text": "That's \"Happy As The Day Is Long,\" sung by Rebecca Kilgore, as sung by Harold Arlen. And, of course, Harold Arlen wrote all the songs for \"The Wizard of Oz.\" He wrote \"Stormy Weather.\" Becky, what are some of your other favorite Arlen songs, ones that you won't be doing today?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I love it because it moves right along, and it's peppy and fun to sing. It's from Cotton Club Parade, 22nd Edition. Ethel Waters sang it in the original production. Ted Koehler wrote the words - Harol"}
{"id": "949835712", "date": "2020-12-25", "guest": "Rebecca Kilgore", "title": "'Fresh Air' Presents Swinging Christmas Music From Rebecca Kilgore And Pals", "question_index": 16, "text": "I want to thank you all for some beautiful and moving and entertaining and fun songs. It's been a wonderful concert. And I want to join you all in wishing everybody a merry Christmas and a happy new year.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was too long a list. It was a hard assignment to pick two Harold Arlen songs. You've got \"Come Rain Or Come Shine.\" You've got \"As Long As I Live.\" The list was very long. So for the second selecti"}
{"id": "949835712", "date": "2020-12-25", "guest": "Rebecca Kilgore", "title": "'Fresh Air' Presents Swinging Christmas Music From Rebecca Kilgore And Pals", "question_index": 17, "text": "Our concert with singer Rebecca Kilgore, trombonist Dan Barrett and pianist Rossano Sportiello was recorded in 2005. Rebecca Kilgore's latest CD with guitarist Andy Brown is titled \"Together - Live.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks."}
{"id": "949822929", "date": "2020-12-29", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Stephen King Is Sorry You Feel Like You're Stuck In A Stephen King Novel", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Life during the pandemic has been feeling like something Stephen King dreamed up. About 40 years ago, in his novel \"The Stand,\" he wrote about a virus that's 99% lethal and wipes out most of the population. That virus was accidentally released by a lab developing biological weapons. \"The Stand\" was adapted into an ABC miniseries back in 1994. A new miniseries adapted from \"The Stand\" is now streaming on CBS All Access. We're going to listen back to the interview I recorded with King early in the pandemic, in April, the month that he published \"If It Bleeds,\" a collection of novellas. The main character of the title story is a private eye, Holly Gibney, who was also a character in several other King books, including \"The Outsider,\" which was adapted into an HBO series starring Cynthia Erivo as Holly. Like in \"The Outsider,\" in \"If It Bleeds,\" Holly is confronted by a force of evil. Here's my interview with Stephen King from April.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "949822929", "date": "2020-12-29", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Stephen King Is Sorry You Feel Like You're Stuck In A Stephen King Novel", "question_index": 1, "text": "Stephen King, welcome back to FRESH AIR. I am so glad that you are well. Is this pandemic the closest thing you've come to living in one of your own horror stories?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "949822929", "date": "2020-12-29", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Stephen King Is Sorry You Feel Like You're Stuck In A Stephen King Novel", "question_index": 2, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it is and it isn't. I had a lot of people get in touch with me after Donald Trump got elected and said..."}
{"id": "949822929", "date": "2020-12-29", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Stephen King Is Sorry You Feel Like You're Stuck In A Stephen King Novel", "question_index": 3, "text": "You know, you write horror stories, and a virus is kind of perfect. You know, viruses are shape-shifters. They keep - like, the flu virus keeps changing every year or two. That's why we always need new vaccines. And viruses aren't exactly alive because they can't - they need some kind of living cell to inhabit in order to survive. So I think scientists say that viruses aren't really alive, or they're somewhere between alive and dead. That sounds kind of like a horror story. And the fact that they live in us and, like, we are their hosts and then they make us sick and, in some cases, can kill us, that really - like, that's the kind of thing you could have invented from scratch. But viruses are real. Do you think of viruses as being just, like, the essence of a horror story in how they work in us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...This is just like \"The Dead Zone.\" There's a character in \"The Dead Zone\" named Greg Stillson, who is kind of an avatar of the common man. And he becomes a state representative, and then he rises t"}
{"id": "949822929", "date": "2020-12-29", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Stephen King Is Sorry You Feel Like You're Stuck In A Stephen King Novel", "question_index": 4, "text": "Oh, can I add one more thing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I do. You know, for years, I was..."}
{"id": "949822929", "date": "2020-12-29", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Stephen King Is Sorry You Feel Like You're Stuck In A Stephen King Novel", "question_index": 5, "text": "You can't see them. Like, you write sometimes about the kind of evil that - like, it can manifest itself in a presence. It can manifest itself in a person. But it exists as an entity. It exists just as pure evil, too. And with a virus, like, the entity, you can't see it unless it's in a body. I mean, you could put it under a microscope, but without a microscope, you can't see it. You don't know it's there, but it is. That's like a horror story, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "949822929", "date": "2020-12-29", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Stephen King Is Sorry You Feel Like You're Stuck In A Stephen King Novel", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yes. Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is. And when you were talking about viruses not being alive or dead, this really is like one of those zombie movies. It's the - you know, the night - we're living in the \"Night Of The Living Dead\" "}
{"id": "949822929", "date": "2020-12-29", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Stephen King Is Sorry You Feel Like You're Stuck In A Stephen King Novel", "question_index": 7, "text": "I'm glad you mentioned Howard Hughes because I keep thinking about the scene in Martin Scorsese's film \"The Aviator,\" where Leonardo DiCaprio as Howard Hughes...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Pathological cleanliness thing. We're all washing our hands. And it's easy to imagine - Terry, think of this. They could be on your hands right now - germs, viruses, like wagon wheels just they're "}
{"id": "949822929", "date": "2020-12-29", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Stephen King Is Sorry You Feel Like You're Stuck In A Stephen King Novel", "question_index": 8, "text": "He's in the bathroom, exactly. And he's trying to get out of the bathroom, but because he's so compulsive about washing his hands and cleaning his hands, every time he washes his hands he has - he can't reach the door with a paper towel.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's in the bathroom, isn't he?"}
{"id": "949822929", "date": "2020-12-29", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Stephen King Is Sorry You Feel Like You're Stuck In A Stephen King Novel", "question_index": 9, "text": "And so he can't get out because every time he touches something, he has to go back and wash his hands again, and the scene keeps going on. And that's the world I feel like I'm living in right now. I'm not sure I have any skin left on my hands", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He can't - yes."}
{"id": "949822929", "date": "2020-12-29", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Stephen King Is Sorry You Feel Like You're Stuck In A Stephen King Novel", "question_index": 10, "text": "from washing so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He can't - yes."}
{"id": "949822929", "date": "2020-12-29", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Stephen King Is Sorry You Feel Like You're Stuck In A Stephen King Novel", "question_index": 11, "text": "Do you like that scene? I know you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Oh, that's the..."}
{"id": "949822929", "date": "2020-12-29", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Stephen King Is Sorry You Feel Like You're Stuck In A Stephen King Novel", "question_index": 12, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "949822929", "date": "2020-12-29", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Stephen King Is Sorry You Feel Like You're Stuck In A Stephen King Novel", "question_index": 13, "text": "I think you're absolutely right. I completely - I feel exactly the same way. The character in the title story of your new collection, Holly Gibney, is also in \"The Outsider\" and several other of your novels. So Holly Gibney, she runs a detective agency. Do you consider her to have a obsessive compulsive disorder or to be on the autism spectrum or to have just, like, a little bit of psychic ability? How would you describe what her...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was thinking about that scene, just as you were and as I'm - I'm sure a lot of people who've seen that movie can relate to that immediately, you know, to the idea of - these things are all over our "}
{"id": "949822929", "date": "2020-12-29", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Stephen King Is Sorry You Feel Like You're Stuck In A Stephen King Novel", "question_index": 14, "text": "...Makeup is that gives her a kind of special power, a special insight?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "949822929", "date": "2020-12-29", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Stephen King Is Sorry You Feel Like You're Stuck In A Stephen King Novel", "question_index": 15, "text": "Do you believe that some people have special powers of perception?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But the short answer to your question is, I see the Holly of the books as an obsessive compulsive with a huge inferiority complex. The character, the Holly that Richard created, was more of a, I would"}
{"id": "949822929", "date": "2020-12-29", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Stephen King Is Sorry You Feel Like You're Stuck In A Stephen King Novel", "question_index": 16, "text": "You know, in the opening to the Holly Gibney story in \"If It Bleeds,\" your new book, you mentioned that the detective who worked with Holly in the book \"The Outsider,\" that his perception of reality was totally changed by that incident because he's dealing with something beyond our perception. He's dealing with something that doesn't seem rational or scientific, which is just this entity of evil. Do you feel like you live in a different reality than other people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. I've seen it. I know that - I used to be good friends with Stephen Jay Gould. We shared seats at Fenway Park. And he would bring his son along. And his son was on the spectrum. But he would "}
{"id": "949822929", "date": "2020-12-29", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Stephen King Is Sorry You Feel Like You're Stuck In A Stephen King Novel", "question_index": 17, "text": "You know what I mean? Because you're always writing about things that are outside of our perception and that are outside of what we consider to be, you know, the real, visible, perceivable world.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. I've seen it. I know that - I used to be good friends with Stephen Jay Gould. We shared seats at Fenway Park. And he would bring his son along. And his son was on the spectrum. But he would "}
{"id": "949822929", "date": "2020-12-29", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Stephen King Is Sorry You Feel Like You're Stuck In A Stephen King Novel", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I hear your question. And I think the answer is that, 20 hours a day, I live in the same reality that everybody else lives in."}
{"id": "949822929", "date": "2020-12-29", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Stephen King Is Sorry You Feel Like You're Stuck In A Stephen King Novel", "question_index": 19, "text": "Why did you leave your - you know, the actual, you know, world for your world, but make your world such a frightening world?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But for four hours a day, things change. And if you ever ask me how that happens or why it happens, I'd have to tell you, it's as much a mystery to me as it is to anybody else. All I know is that when"}
{"id": "949822929", "date": "2020-12-29", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Stephen King Is Sorry You Feel Like You're Stuck In A Stephen King Novel", "question_index": 20, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded last April with Stephen King. We'll hear more of it after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I am interested in frightening people, actually. I'm like the little boy in the Charles Dickens story - I just want to make your flesh creep. And that's OK. But what I'm really interested in as "}
{"id": "949822929", "date": "2020-12-29", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Stephen King Is Sorry You Feel Like You're Stuck In A Stephen King Novel", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded last April with Stephen King, after the publication of his collection of novellas called \"If It Bleeds.\" The main character in the title story, Holly Gibney, is also a main character in the HBO adaptation of Stephen King's novel \"The Outsider,\" in which she was portrayed by Cynthia Erivo. In \"The Outsider,\" Holly is investigating a case that she believes involves a supernatural entity that is the personification of evil.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I am interested in frightening people, actually. I'm like the little boy in the Charles Dickens story - I just want to make your flesh creep. And that's OK. But what I'm really interested in as "}
{"id": "949822929", "date": "2020-12-29", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Stephen King Is Sorry You Feel Like You're Stuck In A Stephen King Novel", "question_index": 22, "text": "In \"The Outsider\" - and this is also mentioned in \"If It Bleeds\" - you refer to the story of El Coco, which is a kind of mythical story that has its origins in various, you know, Spanish, Hispanic cultures. Why don't you describe El Coco and why you're interested in that story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I am interested in frightening people, actually. I'm like the little boy in the Charles Dickens story - I just want to make your flesh creep. And that's OK. But what I'm really interested in as "}
{"id": "949822929", "date": "2020-12-29", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Stephen King Is Sorry You Feel Like You're Stuck In A Stephen King Novel", "question_index": 23, "text": "So describe El Coco.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I found El Coco after I had started to work on \"If It Bleeds.\" I knew that there was an outsider because that's what the book was about. I'm interested in exploring the idea of outside evil. I find it"}
{"id": "949822929", "date": "2020-12-29", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Stephen King Is Sorry You Feel Like You're Stuck In A Stephen King Novel", "question_index": 24, "text": "Wow. That's a lot", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, El Coco is a creature that lives on the fear and the pain of other people. In the myths, he takes bad children. He's a very thin man in a black coat with a white face. And what you tell the chil"}
{"id": "949822929", "date": "2020-12-29", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Stephen King Is Sorry You Feel Like You're Stuck In A Stephen King Novel", "question_index": 25, "text": "- there's a lot in that story. But the idea of this El Coco feeding on fear and on grief - I mean, that's when you're at your most vulnerable.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, El Coco is a creature that lives on the fear and the pain of other people. In the myths, he takes bad children. He's a very thin man in a black coat with a white face. And what you tell the chil"}
{"id": "949822929", "date": "2020-12-29", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Stephen King Is Sorry You Feel Like You're Stuck In A Stephen King Novel", "question_index": 26, "text": "You grew up in the Methodist church. You went to church as a child. Given your bent as a writer, were you especially interested in stories about Satan?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it is. And one of the things that I found extremely powerful that I wanted to use was that El Coco only starts by getting someone - it's Terry Maitland in \"The Outsider\" - to take the rap, if yo"}
{"id": "949822929", "date": "2020-12-29", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Stephen King Is Sorry You Feel Like You're Stuck In A Stephen King Novel", "question_index": 27, "text": "So tell me more about why you find that story so interesting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Job remarries and has more kids."}
{"id": "949822929", "date": "2020-12-29", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Stephen King Is Sorry You Feel Like You're Stuck In A Stephen King Novel", "question_index": 28, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded with Stephen King last April, after the publication of his collection of novellas, \"If It Bleeds.\" We'll hear more of the interview - and we'll hear from Patrick Stewart - after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think mostly because the idea that the devil can meddle in human lives, which goes back to the whole idea of whether or not - this is a question that's fascinated me all my life. Is there such"}
{"id": "949822929", "date": "2020-12-29", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Stephen King Is Sorry You Feel Like You're Stuck In A Stephen King Novel", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Stephen King. His novel about a pandemic, \"The Stand,\" has been adapted into a new TV miniseries that's streaming on CBS All Access. We spoke early in the pandemic, in April, the month he published \"If It Bleeds,\" a collection of novellas.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think mostly because the idea that the devil can meddle in human lives, which goes back to the whole idea of whether or not - this is a question that's fascinated me all my life. Is there such"}
{"id": "949822929", "date": "2020-12-29", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Stephen King Is Sorry You Feel Like You're Stuck In A Stephen King Novel", "question_index": 30, "text": "I want to read something that you recently tweeted - if you think that artists are useless, try to spend your quarantine without music, books, poems, movies and paintings. What led you to write that? Do you think people think of artists as useless?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think mostly because the idea that the devil can meddle in human lives, which goes back to the whole idea of whether or not - this is a question that's fascinated me all my life. Is there such"}
{"id": "949822929", "date": "2020-12-29", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Stephen King Is Sorry You Feel Like You're Stuck In A Stephen King Novel", "question_index": 31, "text": "Me, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't write it. I saw it on Twitter myself and reposted it. I didn't make a comment or anything. I just put it up. I never thought anybody would assume that I had written that. But it got an awful "}
{"id": "949822929", "date": "2020-12-29", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Stephen King Is Sorry You Feel Like You're Stuck In A Stephen King Novel", "question_index": 32, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know, just sitting there with a - oh, yeah. I miss being with people. I miss going out to a restaurant and sitting, you know, and talking with somebody and having fun. Can't do that. I'm in the"}
{"id": "949822929", "date": "2020-12-29", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Stephen King Is Sorry You Feel Like You're Stuck In A Stephen King Novel", "question_index": 33, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...That you'll keep your feet under the covers because it would be awful, and I wouldn't want you to think about this after the lights go out. It would be - please don't think about a hand creeping ou"}
{"id": "949822929", "date": "2020-12-29", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Stephen King Is Sorry You Feel Like You're Stuck In A Stephen King Novel", "question_index": 34, "text": "No, I won't because that's not what's going to be scaring me in the middle of the night. And you know what is going to be scaring me in the middle of the night. But - which makes me wonder, like, how do you feel about your stories in a time like this? And what I mean is, your stories are about human nature and human vulnerabilities and the things beyond our perception, and they're also intended in part to scare people. You like scaring people. Part of your stories have to do with the world of horror. And we're surrounded by such - we're living in a horror story now. So what do you see as the role of, you know, horror fiction or horror movies in a period when the world itself is so frightening?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...A cold hand and then lightly gripping your ankle. I mean, you won't think about that, will you?"}
{"id": "949822929", "date": "2020-12-29", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Stephen King Is Sorry You Feel Like You're Stuck In A Stephen King Novel", "question_index": 35, "text": "Stephen King, thank you so much for talking with us. Thank you for your books. And I wish you and your family good health. And be well. Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they're like dreams, aren't they? You're able to go into a world that you know is not real. But if the artist is good - the filmmaker or the novelist, maybe even the painter - for a little while"}
{"id": "949822929", "date": "2020-12-29", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Stephen King Is Sorry You Feel Like You're Stuck In A Stephen King Novel", "question_index": 36, "text": "My interview with Stephen King was recorded in April, the month his collection of novellas \"If It Bleeds\" was published. After we take a short break, we'll hear from Patrick Stewart, who returned this year to his role as Captain Picard in his series \"Star Trek: Picard.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. And right back at you - be healthy and be safe."}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today, we're going to remember Broadway star Rebecca Luker. She died last Wednesday at the age of 59 of ALS, Lou Gehrig's disease. Luker had a beautiful voice. I loved hearing her sing and feel lucky to have seen her on Broadway and to have had her on our show four times. We're going to hear excerpts of those interviews. Luker received Tony nominations for her performances in \"Show Boat,\" \"The Music Man\" and \"Mary Poppins.\" She also starred in a Broadway revival of \"The Sound Of Music.\" She was married to another Broadway star, Danny Burstein. We send our condolences to him. We'll start our tribute with our interview from 2000, when Rebecca Luker was starring on Broadway in a revival of \"The Music Man\" in the role of Marian, the librarian. This part of the interview begins with her singing \"Till There Was You\" from the cast recording of that revival.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 1, "text": "Rebecca Luker in the part of Marian, the librarian. You have songs with what seems to me anyways to be a really big range that starts off in your - in, you know, the bottom of your speaking range and ends up on really high notes. But you have a voice that's very well equipped to do that. This was probably not even a stretch for you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Marian, singing) There were bells on the hill, but I never heard them ringing. No, I never heard them at all till there was you. There were birds in the sky, but I never saw them winging. No, I ne"}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 2, "text": "Let me play something with you, Rebecca Luker, singing on the cast recording of \"The Music Man.\" And I thought we'd go with a ballad that is not that famous. It's called \"My White Knight.\" It's a really lovely song, has, I think, quite a big range. You do start off as if you're speaking and then soar", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, how to comment on that? Well, I guess the range is right in my voice. I have to say, I've done this role twice before. And, you know, the range is - I guess it has a big range. It goes up to A fla"}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, how to comment on that? Well, I guess the range is right in my voice. I have to say, I've done this role twice before. And, you know, the range is - I guess it has a big range. It goes up to A fla"}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 4, "text": "Yeah. Say something about the song. It's too bad this one isn't as well known.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, this one has a big range."}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it is. It's not that well known. Probably one reason is that in the movie, they interpolate the Meredith Willson's version into the, you know, into the song. In the middle of the song, you hear "}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 6, "text": "When the song starts, you know, Marian's mother's saying to her, you know, it's about time you found a guy, and nobody's of interest to you. What are you waiting for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it's, you know, it's one of my favorite songs now, though. It's such a lovely song. And it just - it sort of encapsulates Marian and how, you know, how - who she is. It makes her - you know, you u"}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 7, "text": "And she sings this in response. This is \"My White Knight,\" Rebecca Luker singing on the new cast recording of \"The Music Man.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly, exactly."}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 8, "text": "That's Rebecca Luker from the new cast recording of \"The Music Man.\" Rebecca, you grew up in a small town in Alabama.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Marian, singing) My white knight - not a Lancelot, nor an angel with wings, just someone to love me who is not ashamed of a few nice things. My white knight, who knew what my heart would say if it"}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 9, "text": "Did you feel connected at all to the small town of River City in \"The Music Man\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 10, "text": "How small was the town you moved to after Birmingham?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes and no. I mean, I grew up in Birmingham, Ala. But I wasn't there too many years. I moved when I was 4. But actually, I moved to even a smaller town than Birmingham. So yes, in a way, I guess I was"}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 11, "text": "Was there any theater there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Helena, Ala., I don't know the population. But it's small. I mean, we're talking, you know, six traffic lights or something, you know? So it - and it hasn't changed in 30 years, probably."}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 12, "text": "Was there any local entertainment?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hope no one from Helena is listening. No. Oh, no. There was a little theater in Birmingham. So we'd go there to - if we ever did see theater, it was in Birmingham, pretty much."}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 13, "text": "What kind of songs did you sing in church?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 14, "text": "You want to do a few bars of a hymn you sang when you were a kid?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mostly - well, I grew up in the Baptist Church. So we had that sort of secular, kind of popular-type music, you know, Bill Gaither, if you know anything about that kind of music - nothing classical, n"}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 15, "text": "No.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, (singing) just as I am without one plea. You know that one?"}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 16, "text": "They didn't sing that one in my synagogue.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And we'd sing, you know, 12, 14..."}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 17, "text": "Why don't we take a pause here and listen to some more music from the new cast recording of \"The Music Man.\" And, Rebecca, I thought we could listen to you singing \"Goodnight My Someone.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. We'd sing about 12 verses of that while the preacher stood at the end waiting for someone to walk down the aisle and join the church. And, you know..."}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is a very familiar song from the show. Do you want to say anything about the song and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 19, "text": "OK. This is \"Goodnight My Someone,\" Rebecca Luker from the new cast recording of \"The Music Man.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I love when it comes in the show. I think you need a ballad, you know? I've often heard the audience say that by the time, you know, Marian goes out on the porch and the moonlight, you know, hits her "}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 20, "text": "That's Rebecca Luker, who plays Marian, the librarian, in the new Broadway production of \"The Music Man.\" Now, Rebecca, your first role on Broadway was in \"Phantom Of The Opera.\" You were an understudy for Sarah Brightman, who was the lead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Marian, singing) Goodnight, my someone. Goodnight, my love. Sleep tight, my someone. Sleep tight, my love. Our star is shining its brightest light for goodnight, my love, for goodnight. Sweet drea"}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 21, "text": "And you were also in the chorus. Did you spend a lot of time hoping that you could play the part?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 22, "text": "And you eventually got to play the lead in that show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Because I learned so much. And it was a great experience."}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 23, "text": "That was Rebecca Luker recorded in 2000 when she was starring in a Broadway revival of \"The Music Man.\" We'll continue our tribute to her and hear a couple of songs from her 1999 performance on our show after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And eventually, yes, right after that, took over for Christine."}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to our tribute to Broadway star Rebecca Luker. She died last week of ALS - Lou Gehrig's disease. We're listening to highlights from her FRESH AIR appearances. In 1999, we did a show about songwriter Jerome Kern as part of our American popular song series. Luker and singer George Dvorsky performed several songs on that show. Here's an excerpt, starting with their duet of Kern's song \"Look For The Silver Lining.\" George Dvorsky starts it off.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And eventually, yes, right after that, took over for Christine."}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 25, "text": "Thank you. That was beautiful. That was George Dvorsky and Rebecca Luker singing with William Hicks at the piano. Why don't we hear another early song by Jerome Kern, one that was popular - very popular - in its time, 1914, but is virtually never done today. It's called \"You're Here And I'm Here.\" You want to sing it for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) A heart full of joy and gladness will always banish sadness and strife. So always look for the silver lining and try to find the sunny side of life."}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 26, "text": "We heard Rebecca Luker and George Dvorsky recorded on our show in 1999. Luker loved Jerome Kern's music and recorded an album of Kern's songs in 2013. After a break, we'll hear an excerpt of the interview I recorded with her when the album was released as we continue our tribute to Rebecca Luker. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You're here, and I'm here, so what do we care? The time and place do not count, it's the one who is there. Now, all I ask is room for two and to be there with only you. It would be heaven. W"}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 27, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross, back with more of our tribute to Broadway star Rebecca Luker. She died last week at the age of 59. We're listening back to excerpts of her four FRESH AIR appearances. When we left off, we heard her perform Jerome Kern songs on our 1999 program about Kern's music. She loved Kern's songs and, in 2013, released an album of them. That was the occasion for the interview we're about to hear. The album is called \"I Got Love.\" We started with a track from it, Kern's song \"Once In A Blue Moon.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I'm old-fashioned. I love the moonlight. I love the old-fashioned things - the sound of rain upon a windowpane, the starry song that April sings. This year's fancies are passing fancies. But"}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 28, "text": "Rebecca Luker, welcome back to FRESH AIR, and congratulations on your new album. What a beautiful song that is, which - a song that I wasn't familiar with. It's a lovely song. And I like the way you start off unaccompanied, which is a kind of brave way to start an album...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Once in a blue moon, you will meet the right one. Once in a blue moon, find your dear delight one. Then with a thrill, you'll know that love is true once in a lifetime, when the moon is blue"}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 29, "text": "...To sing unaccompanied because it's the first track on the record. What made you decide to do it that way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Once in a blue moon, you will meet the right one. Once in a blue moon, find your dear delight one. Then with a thrill, you'll know that love is true once in a lifetime, when the moon is blue"}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 30, "text": "The lyric for the song was written by Anne Caldwell. And it's interesting that Jerome Kern wrote with several women lyricists at a time when there were so few women lyricists because there's Anne Caldwell, there's Dorothy Fields, who's probably the best-known woman who he wrote with.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it is. Well, you have to be sure you're on - in the key when the musicians join you, which is - I always find that to be fun and challenging."}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 31, "text": "And then there's a third whose name I'm not remembering because it's a name I was unfamiliar with.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 32, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You could be thinking of Irene Franklin."}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 33, "text": "So she wrote the song for herself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So I believe that was his only song with Irene Franklin. But yes, he..."}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 34, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She did. The show - I forget the name of the show all of a sudden. My - it's - \"My Husband's First Wife\" was - oh, \"Sweet Adeline\"..."}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 35, "text": "And you do it on the album. And it is really funny.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...That he wrote with Oscar Hammerstein. And I think - as the story has it, he - Oscar Hammerstein was too busy writing other arrangements. And she came to Kern and, you know, she - or he came to her "}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 36, "text": "Yeah. So it's called \"My Husband's First Wife.\" Anything you want to say about it? We'll give it a spin.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I do it on the album."}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 37, "text": "That sounded so old-fashioned - we'll give it a spin", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure. \"My Husband\"..."}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 38, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure. \"My Husband\"..."}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 39, "text": "But old-fashioned suits the album 'cause some of these songs, like this one, are so old-fashioned. This sounds like an old vaudeville song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We'll give a spin. Yeah, you'll give it a whirl."}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 40, "text": "After we hear the song, would you sing your husband's verse?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It - absolutely. And it, you know, it was. It was - well, it was 1929 but a little bit after, maybe? I guess vaudeville was the '20s - the whole '20s. My husband, Danny, wrote his own verse for it for"}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 41, "text": "OK. You think while we play the song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 42, "text": "OK. This is Rebecca Luker from her new album of Jerome Kern songs, which is called \"I Got Love.\" And the song is \"My Husband's First Wife.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 43, "text": "So that's Rebecca Luker singing \"My Husband's First Wife\" from her new album of Jerome Kern songs, which is called \"I Got Love.\" So did you remember the lyric that your husband wrote for this 1929 song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) There once lived a wonderful woman. Oh, a marvelous woman was she. She cooked like an angel, made all her own clothes. At 4:00 every morning, this paragon rose. She played the piano and cell"}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 44, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) There once lived a wonderful woman. Oh, a marvelous woman was she. She cooked like an angel, made all her own clothes. At 4:00 every morning, this paragon rose. She played the piano and cell"}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 45, "text": "Very good.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. We laughed a lot doing this, by the way. Mostly, they're his, Danny Burstein's lyrics. So - (singing) my husband's first wife, my husband's first wife, her skin was like porcelain, her por"}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 46, "text": "I'm sure there's many", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ta da. Danny Burstein."}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 47, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ta da. Danny Burstein."}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 48, "text": "...Many more waiting to be written.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 49, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded with Rebecca Luker in 2013 after the release of her album of Jerome Kern songs called \"I Got Love.\" We'll continue our tribute to her after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Man, we laughed so hard. You should have heard some of the earlier, you know, versions that we came up with - very funny."}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 50, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Today, we're remembering Broadway star Rebecca Luker, who had a beautiful singing voice. She died last Wednesday. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with her in 2013 after the release of her album of Jerome Kern songs called \"I Got Love.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Man, we laughed so hard. You should have heard some of the earlier, you know, versions that we came up with - very funny."}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 51, "text": "So I want you to introduce another song from your new album. And this is the song \"The Folks Who Live On The Hill\" from your album of Jerome Kern songs. He wrote this with Oscar Hammerstein. It's a pretty famous song. It's a standard in the jazz world.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Man, we laughed so hard. You should have heard some of the earlier, you know, versions that we came up with - very funny."}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 52, "text": "What do you love about this song? And tell us where - you know, more about its origins.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 53, "text": "OK. So this is \"The Folks\" - this is \"The Folks Who Live On The Hill\" from my guest, Rebecca Luker's new album called \"I Got Love - Songs Of Jerome Kern.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So when we decided to do the song, I heard a million versions of it. And I thought, well, should we do it? Because everybody's done this song. But I discovered it through just listening to many,"}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 54, "text": "That was Rebecca Luker singing \"The Folks Who Live On The Hill\" from her collection of Jerome Kern songs, which was the occasion of my interview with her in 2013, which we just heard an excerpt of. My final interview with her was recorded about 11 weeks ago. It had been a rough year for her and her husband, Broadway star Danny Burstein. He starred in revivals of \"Fiddler On The Roof\" and Stephen Sondheim's \"Follies,\" as well as in \"Moulin Rouge.\" Earlier in the year, Burstein was hospitalized for COVID. Then Luker came down with a relatively mild case, but it was on top of having been diagnosed a few months earlier with ALS, Lou Gehrig's disease. After Burstein wrote an article about having COVID and then taking care of Luker, who had become increasingly weak, we invited them back on our show. Luker's symptoms seemed to be progressing rapidly. She was at the point where she was having trouble speaking, although just four months earlier, she had performed a song at a Zoom event to raise awareness about ALS. Here's an excerpt of my interview from October 12, with Rebecca Luker and her husband, Danny Burstein.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Someday, we'll build a home on a hilltop high, you and I. Shiny and new, a cottage that two can fill. And we'll be pleased to be called the folks who live on the hill. Someday, we may be add"}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 55, "text": "You both have received Tony nominations for your performances in musicals. Becca, it seems like you are just such a natural singer. I can't imagine - no one could learn to sing like you unless they had a gift that they just had, you know? And Danny, you've said you never really thought of yourself as a singer and that you had to work at it, although I think you're a terrific singer. I've heard you in several musicals. But compare your approaches to how you developed into singers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Someday, we'll build a home on a hilltop high, you and I. Shiny and new, a cottage that two can fill. And we'll be pleased to be called the folks who live on the hill. Someday, we may be add"}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 56, "text": "Can you put your finger on something that you learned from him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I learned a lot from Danny because he's such a great actor that it made me better over the years. Absolutely."}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 57, "text": "Just a few months ago in June, when you had a little more breath, you did a Zoom event to raise awareness about ALS. And you sang a Jerome Kern song called \"Not You\" that's also on your Jerome Kern album. I thought since we're talking about your voice, that we might hear a little bit of that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, just how to communicate a song. When I was younger, I would really fall back on just the fact that I had a pretty voice, you know? So as I matured, especially after I met Danny, he would help me m"}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 58, "text": "Thank you so much for this conversation and for sharing so much with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just think it's one of the most beautiful early Kern songs ever. Sondheim said he liked it, too, so that's good. Kern just speaks to me so well, you know? I feel like it's - I was meant to sing Kern"}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 59, "text": "Here's Rebecca Luker, recorded in June singing the Jerome Kern song \"Not You.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Lovely talking to you, Terry."}
{"id": "951420026", "date": "2020-12-30", "guest": "Rebecca Luker", "title": "Remembering Broadway Star Rebecca Luker", "question_index": 60, "text": "That performance from last June turned out to be Rebecca Luker's final performance. She died of ALS last Wednesday. She was 59. The interview we just heard with her and her husband, Danny Burstein, was recorded on October 12. I'm grateful for the recordings she's left us with. We send our deepest sympathies to Danny Burstein. After a short break, our jazz critic Kevin Whitehead will pay tribute to a few of the jazz musicians who left us this year. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) There's a certain someone, and I'm anxious he should hear me. Who? You. Always has me worried and in trouble when he's near me. Who? You. Some are born to make all they know forlorn, raising"}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Happy New Year. We're happy to say goodbye to 2020, and we want to end it with something enjoyable and entertaining, so we're going to listen to a performance and interview we recorded earlier this month. Here's that show.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 1, "text": "Over the past few months, I haven't been able to listen to as much music as I'd like because so much of my listening time has been devoted to shows and podcasts about politics, the election and COVID. But when I do listen to music, really good music, I feel especially vulnerable to the mood, whether it's joy or sadness. And that's how I felt when I listened to the new album by Loudon Wainwright and Vince Giordano of songs from the 1920s and '30s. It's the period Giordano typically draws from with the 11-piece band he leads, the Nighthawks. During normal times, the band attracts devoted followers who come to listen and dance. He plays tuba, bass and bass saxophone. But this is not the music you'd associate with Loudon Wainwright, who's best known for writing and performing his own songs, which range from confessional songs about family dysfunction to satirical songs about politics and other issues. His children include singer-songwriters Rufus and Martha Wainwright and Lucy Wainwright Roche, and they sometimes write songs about family, too. Loudon Wainwright and Vince Giordano previously worked together on the HBO series \"Boardwalk Empire,\" which was set during Prohibition and was about gangsters who made bootleg liquor and who served it in nightclubs in Atlantic City. Giordano and his band performed a lot of the music for the show. Loudon Wainwright sang a couple of the songs. The title track of their new album, \"I'd Rather Lead A Band,\" is a song from the Fred Astaire-Ginger Rogers movie \"Follow The Fleet.\" The album also features songs by Rodgers and Hart, Fats Waller, Harold Arlen, Frank Loesser and others. Vince Giordano and Loudon Wainwright are joining us from the Hobo Sound Studio in New Jersey, where they're socially distanced in separate rooms. They brought their instruments and are going to perform some songs for us, but let's start with a track from the album that may help brighten your mood if you're feeling down. It's called \"So The Bluebirds And The Blackbirds Got Together.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 2, "text": "LOUDON WAINWRIGHT III WITH VINCE", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 3, "text": "Loudon Wainwright, Vince Giordano, welcome, both of you, back to FRESH AIR. I love this album. There's so much joy in that recording that we just heard. I know this song from the Rhythm Boys and Paul Whiteman, which had the original recording, I think in, like, 1929. How did you choose it for the album?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Look at my doorstep. Look at my doorstep. Look at the blackbirds. Look at the bluebirds. Look at the bad luck. Look at the good luck there. Never saw bluebirds mingle with blackbirds, never "}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 4, "text": "No one?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's just a fun, uplifting song, and it's not one of those songs that everyone has done. No one has done this since the Rhythm Boys did it back in the late '20s, early '30s."}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 5, "text": "If anyone would know, you would know. I'm sure of that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not that I know of."}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 6, "text": "So describe this project for us. What's the backstory of how you two got together to record this album of music from the '20s and '30s?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Definitely."}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the first time that Vince and I worked together was on a Martin Scorsese movie called \"The Aviator,\" his Howard Hughes biopic. And we sang songs in that movie, and that was - and spent time in M"}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 8, "text": "Vince, you play this kind of music all the time. But, Loudon, I don't associate music from the '20s and '30s with you unless it's kind of, you know, like, folk, country-ish music, like your Charlie Poole project. So where does this music fit in your musical life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So it was kind of a wonderful, very happy experience that started out with those guys, Randy and Stuart, thinking that it would be a cool thing for us to make a record together."}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 9, "text": "Some people hate their fathers' music, but you liked it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, my dad had a great record collection. It was eclectic. It had folk music and jazz, a lot of Broadway musicals. But I grew up listening to that stuff. And a lot of the songs that wound up on "}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 10, "text": "And I like that you're not trying to, like, sing in period. You're just singing in your voice, and it sounds so great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did like it. I - you know, he loved music, and to watch him be enthralled by this great material was - it was thrilling for me as a little kid, you know? So I - as you mentioned, it's - a lot of it "}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 11, "text": "So we asked if you would be willing to perform a couple of songs for us. So you each brought your instruments, and you're in a recording studio right now. So would you play \"Ain't Misbehavin'\" for us? And, Vince, I think you'll be playing tuba. And, Loudon, you actually brought a guitarist with you, David Mansfield, so he'll be featured on guitar. So do you want to say anything about why you chose \"Ain't Misbehavin'\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I kind of saw it as an acting job, not to do an imitation of Bing Crosby but - or something like that - but to just sing it in my voice but somehow emotionally inhabit the material."}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 12, "text": "And let's give credit to the lyricist, Andy Razaf, and also say that, you know, one of the things I like about the song hearing it now is that it's really about being alone, you know, because, you know, your lover is away. But we're so much of - we're spending so much time alone, or relatively alone, right now, even if we're alone with others. There's not a lot of socializing for a lot of us. So why don't you play \"Ain't Misbehavin'\" for us? This song is on the album, but this is Vince Giordano and Loudon doing it live for us with a guitar assist by David Mansfield.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, so many people love this song. Fats Waller, you know, was, of course, a great entertainer, and his songs - it's a great little vehicle. And people really relate to it, you know? When the"}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 13, "text": "So that was Loudon Wainwright singing and Vince Giordano on tuba, with David Mansfield on guitar. And that song is on the new album, \"I'd Rather Lead A Band,\" which features songs from the '20s and '30s, and it features Loudon singing and Vince Giordano's band, the Nighthawks. That was just, like, so much fun. And, Vince, it's so great to hear tuba being so prominent. It's not an instrument that is often prominently featured anymore. And certainly, there are very few tuba solos that you get to hear. That was just lovely.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Playing tuba). (Singing) Though it's a fickle age, with flirting all the rage, here is one bird with self-control, happy inside my cage. I know who I love best. Thumbs-down for all the rest. My love "}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 14, "text": "You have your - yes. You have your tuba with you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you."}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 15, "text": "I think so few people know much about tuba. Can you just pick up your tuba again and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 16, "text": "...Just give us a sense of some of the things the instrument can do. Like, let's start with, like, what's the highest note you can get, and what's the lowest?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 17, "text": "That's great. What are some of the most influential recordings for you as a tuba player that made you want to play tuba and shaped, like, what you wanted to do with it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I've - let me get it up here. I haven't really been playing much in this non-playing time. I mean, there are tuba virtuosos who can play as high as a trumpet. You know, they have chops"}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 18, "text": "What were some of the typical bass lines that would be played on tuba then in the '20s?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, most of the dance band music from the 1920s features a tuba in the rhythm section 'cause (ph) it was a great instrument to record. It was much louder than the string bass in those years. And the"}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 19, "text": "So the music we've heard so far is music that's really just kind of upbeat and joyful. We're going to change moods here. This is such a lonely, beautiful song. It's called \"A Ship Without A Sail.\" It's a Rodgers and Hart song. I love this song. And, Loudon, after I heard you singing it, this song went through my head nonstop for a week. And then when I went back to the album, the same thing happened - like, another week", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, very simple. You're just doing the root note, the five (ph) note - you know, like what I was just playing there, something like (playing tuba). So sometimes you get a little fill in between. Ver"}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 20, "text": "of this song just living in my head.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, very simple. You're just doing the root note, the five (ph) note - you know, like what I was just playing there, something like (playing tuba). So sometimes you get a little fill in between. Ver"}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 21, "text": "No, it's such great company. Tell me why you chose the song and what it means to you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Gee, I'm sorry about that."}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 22, "text": "And Lee Wiley was a jazz singer who recorded in the '30s, '40s and '50s. And her version is the first version I heard, too. Do you have a favorite set of lines from the song that you'd like to quote before we hear you sing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My girlfriend Susan (ph) had a Lee Wiley record in the car. And the car has a CD player in it. And I just heard this song - I don't know when - a year ago or something - and just fell in love with the"}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 23, "text": "My breast an empty shell comes after.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wow. Well, the whole - I think it's in the verse in the beginning, the whole thing about my head is just a hat place. I can't remember the lines that precede and follow that, but it's just one of thos"}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 24, "text": "And if you're feeling a little lonely during COVID, I think this song will have a lot of resonance for you. So let's hear it. And this is from the new Loudon Wainwright, Vince Giordano and the Nighthawks album. And the album is called \"I'd Rather Lead A Band.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's just - it's great, great writing, and it just sends a chill. It's just a great, great, beautifully written thing by Hart."}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 25, "text": "LOUDON WAINWRIGHT II WITH VINCE", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's just - it's great, great writing, and it just sends a chill. It's just a great, great, beautifully written thing by Hart."}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 26, "text": "That was the Rodgers and Hart song \"A Ship Without A Sail,\" as performed on the new Loudon Wainwright, Vince Giordano collaboration of songs from the '20s and '30s. And the album is called \"I'd Rather Lead A Band.\" Was this album one of the last things you did before COVID shut things down?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I don't know what day it is or if it's dark or fair. Somehow that's just the way it is. And I don't really care. I go to this or that place. I seem alive and well. My head is just a hat plac"}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 27, "text": "I'm interested in how your lives have changed. I mean, you're both musicians, which means you often keep musician hours - playing at night, probably, sleeping late and on the road sometimes - all things - you know, you can't perform in clubs now or concerts, definitely not going on the road. So what are some of the ways your life has been changed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know, Boston or - but, of course, everything stopped in March, so we weren't able to get out and perform the songs."}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 28, "text": "So you said you were working on old scores. What does that mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I just keep busy. I'm working on old scores. I'm working on projects that I've put off for 15 years - some really exciting musical things and then some kind of mundane things, like putting up my"}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 29, "text": "So a lot of the arrangements that you play are from old scores. And you have the old paper sitting in your file, so you transcribe that into this program and make the changes that you want.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", when there's nothing else on the books."}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 30, "text": "And, Loudon, how are you spending your time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's it. And the guys are happier reading paper that's larger and notes that are larger. You know, everyone's getting up there in age, and the notes are getting smaller."}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 31, "text": "Seriously?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've read six Charles Dickens books."}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 32, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm on \"Little Dorrit\" now."}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 33, "text": "Well, Vince, I know you bought the house next door to you just to store, like, the tens of thousands of recordings and music scores and piano rolls and all that stuff. So are you spending more time there in that other house, going through stuff?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm not kidding, actually. I've been reading a lot. I live out on the end of Long Island. And when the weather was warmer, I was in my sailboat and walking around a lot. But, yeah, I'm unemployed, bas"}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 34, "text": "So the arrangements are so great on this new album. And some of them are just, like, pure joy. And some of them are just really lovely and beautiful. Did you use the arrangements from the original recordings or use your interpretations of them or write them from scratch?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Yes, finding things that I haven't seen in 20 or 30 years and tidying up all the loose ends - and also the garage. There were eight crates of music that someone gave me about 15, 16 years ag"}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 35, "text": "And did you end up using it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "wrote this out. And you want us to play it? I said, let's try it. We'll take a couple of takes."}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 36, "text": "So which part is the Ravel? Because I was not aware of that, so I did not notice it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah. It's there. And that was never recorded by the Whiteman band. But I got the arrangement from Williams College, where a majority of his arrangements reside in the Whiteman Collection."}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 37, "text": "Let's just hear that part again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right after Loudon sings, there's this crazy woodwind part that goes something like, doodly (ph), doodly, doodly, doodly, doodly, doodly, doodly, doodly, doodly, (vocalizing). There's this underneath "}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 38, "text": "OK. So that was the Ravel part", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right after Loudon sings, there's this crazy woodwind part that goes something like, doodly (ph), doodly, doodly, doodly, doodly, doodly, doodly, doodly, doodly, (vocalizing). There's this underneath "}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 39, "text": "that you borrowed. Yeah, nice. So you were generous enough to actually go to a studio, where you're socially distanced in separate rooms, so that you could do a couple of songs for us that you also do on the album. So I'm going to ask you to do a song that I'd never heard before that I really like called \"How I Love You.\" And, Loudon, is there a story behind this song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right after Loudon sings, there's this crazy woodwind part that goes something like, doodly (ph), doodly, doodly, doodly, doodly, doodly, doodly, doodly, doodly, (vocalizing). There's this underneath "}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 40, "text": "I agree. You captured the fun", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's a great song."}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 41, "text": ". So Loudon's going to be playing ukulele on this and Vince on tuba. So you want to give it a go for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's a great song."}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 42, "text": "That was wonderful.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Playing tuba). (Singing) Through fields of golden flowers, where we spent sunny hours, I'm strolling along, thinking of you. I told the four-leaf clover, my lonesome days are over. I talk about you a"}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 43, "text": "That was Loudon Wainwright singing and playing ukulele and Vince Giordano playing tuba. And they just did that for us. They have an album of songs from the 1920s and '30s that's called \"I'd Rather Lead A Band.\" That song is on the album. What you just heard was - they just did just for us. And, Loudon, I love that scat chorus, which is not", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Playing tuba). (Singing) Through fields of golden flowers, where we spent sunny hours, I'm strolling along, thinking of you. I told the four-leaf clover, my lonesome days are over. I talk about you a"}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 44, "text": "- not something you do on the album.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Playing tuba). (Singing) Through fields of golden flowers, where we spent sunny hours, I'm strolling along, thinking of you. I told the four-leaf clover, my lonesome days are over. I talk about you a"}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 45, "text": "So you play ukulele on that. I think the ukulele is an instrument that's often kind of mocked. What do you really like about the instrument?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no. It's not - you know, it kind of is a stretch from the family dysfunctional material that I'm so well known for. It's very optimistic and up, which is - I love that aspect of it."}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 46, "text": "You actually do another song that Ukulele Ike originated.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And portable. It's got a great look to it, and it is light and two strings less than a guitar. It's got four strings on it. And Vince mentioned Cliff Edwards, who was also known as Ukulele Ike - gr"}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 47, "text": "And it's called \"I'm Going To Give It To Mary With Love.\" And this is a song...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 48, "text": "This is a song - I'm trying to think. It's a double entendre song, you know, because it's like, I'm going to give it to Mary with love, and the it is - how do we put it? There's also a line - I'm going to - she's going to hold it in her little hands, so maybe that'll give you a sense of what the it is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 49, "text": "I'm getting kind of lewd. I used to play this on my show when I had a radio show in Buffalo on the college station because it was so amusing to me that the guy who did the voice on \"Pinocchio\" and who was famous for singing \"When You Wish Upon A Star\" was singing this incredibly lewd song. So - yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, you're getting kind of lewd here. I don't know."}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 50, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It comes from a party record."}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 51, "text": "Right. And for people who don't know the expression, party records are lewd records", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And there's no composer on the record. It's - the record was - the company was called The Hollywood Hot Shots, and that was it. And Cliff Edwards went in and out of good times, and I think at this poi"}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 52, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And there's no composer on the record. It's - the record was - the company was called The Hollywood Hot Shots, and that was it. And Cliff Edwards went in and out of good times, and I think at this poi"}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 53, "text": "With a lot of double entendres - the old ones had a lot of double entendres, yeah. Under the counter - is that what you said?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes."}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 54, "text": "So it's interesting that he did that because he was down on his luck. I had no idea about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think they were sold kind of on the sly."}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 55, "text": "Some of the songs on here - I mean, these are songs from the 1920s and '30s. And so a lot of the songs are, like, from the Depression era. And there's a good deal of songs from that era that are all about, you know, the simple pleasures of life because that's all people had. They didn't have money. And you do one of those songs on the new album, \"The Little Things In Life.\" And it's also a song about, you know, forming a family and having a baby and how, like, perfect that is. So it's an interesting song for you to sing, Loudon, because your songs - your original songs are about how imperfect", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he - I think they were going to put him in a pauper's grave. And people - Walt Disney liked him very much, and the company. And the they put an actual tombstone for him. But he really pushed the"}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 56, "text": "families are and how difficult fatherhood is. So what was the - singing this song is just, like, so out of character for you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he - I think they were going to put him in a pauper's grave. And people - Walt Disney liked him very much, and the company. And the they put an actual tombstone for him. But he really pushed the"}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 57, "text": "And it's also about the basics, which...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's very idealistic. But - and I think Bing Crosby might have had a big hit with this one. We took a shot and did it. It's just a great, lovely little song that's positive. So - and, yeah, as you say"}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 58, "text": "...You know, many people still have, you know? So it's about finding pleasure in the little things in life. So let's hear it. Vince, is there anything you want to say about it before we play it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 59, "text": "So this is \"The Little Things In Life,\" an early Irving Berlin song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, it's what I call one of Irving Berlin's sleepers because not too many people know about it. It's not from a show or a film. It's just a pop song that he penned out of the many thousand"}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 60, "text": "OK, pretty early. And it's from the Loudon Wainwright, Vince Giordano album \"I'd Rather Lead A Band.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "1930."}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 61, "text": "So that's a lovely song from the new album, \"I'd Rather Lead A Band,\" featuring Loudon Wainwright and Vince Giordano and his band, The Nighthawks. Well, I want to end with one more song, and I'm going to ask you to perform it for us. It's a song by Frank Loesser called \"More I Cannot Wish You\" that's from one of my favorite shows, \"Guys And Dolls.\" And it was hardly my favorite song from the show, but I really love the way you do it. It just feels very meaningful to me. Can you talk about why you chose this and what the song means to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Just a little room or two can more than do a little man and wife. That's if they're contented with the little things in life. Living on a larger scale would soon entail a lot of care and str"}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 62, "text": "And he wrote so many different kinds of shows. I mean, there's \"Guys And Dolls.\" That's all kind of, you know, streetwise talk. And then he wrote, basically, an operetta...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this goes back to the thing we were talking about earlier. I was mentioning my father's record collection. \"Guys And Dolls\" was in the collection, and I listened to it as a kid. And interestingl"}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 63, "text": "...Like, an opera. \"The Most Happy Fella,\" yeah, which is so different both, you know, melodically and lyrically. So I'm going to ask you to close by playing the Frank Loesser song \"More I Cannot Wish You\" from \"Guys And Dolls.\" And the song is on the album, but this is a performance in the studio that they are doing just for us. And we'll hear Loudon on vocals. And he brought in David Mansfield to play guitar on this. And we'll hear Vince Giordano, not on tuba this time, but on bass. Thank you both so much for your generosity in doing this for us and playing for us and going to the studio socially distanced in separate rooms", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, \"Most Happy Fella\" (ph)."}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 64, "text": "and for being here to talk with us. And thank you for the wonderful album.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, \"Most Happy Fella\" (ph)."}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 65, "text": "So that was Loudon Wainwright and Vince Giordano performing in the Hobo Sound Studio in Weehawken, N.J. We thank the engineer there, James Frazee, for his really great work. And also, thanks to Stewart Lerman, one of the producers of Vincent and Loudon's album, who was also there for the session to help produce that. Thank you all so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Velvet I can wish you for the collar of your coat and fortune smiling all along your way. But more I cannot wish you than to wish you'll find your love, your own true love this day. Mansions"}
{"id": "952276957", "date": "2020-12-31", "guest": "Giordano And The Nighthawks", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 66, "text": "New Year's Eve is a time to celebrate, and I hope you find a way to celebrate in a safe way. Many of us are also thinking about people we lost this year to COVID or other illnesses. At FRESH AIR, we're thinking about our linguist Geoff Nunberg, who died over the summer after a long illness. We miss him. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews were produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Emory Boldanaro (ph), Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Kayla Lattimore. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. All of us at FRESH AIR wish you a healthy and fulfilling new year. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks, Terry."}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Happy New Year. It seems most New Years, at least one cable channel shows \"The Godfather\" films. In a weird way, I've come to think of it as a holiday film. For the 30th anniversary of \"Godfather III\" (ph), Francis Ford Coppola has released a restored and reedited version of the film. It has a new title, too - \"Mario Puzo's The Godfather, Coda: The Death Of Michael Corleone\" - spoiler. It's available on video on demand. Today, we listen back to my interview with Coppola. We spoke in 2016 after the publication of the notebook he kept when he was making the first film in \"The Godfather\" trilogy. He told some terrific stories about how he cast it and directed it. \"The Notebook\" contains his thoughts about each scene, including the pitfalls he wanted to avoid. \"The Notebook\" also includes pages from the novel that the movie is based on, Mario Puzo's novel \"The Godfather,\" with Coppola's notes in the margins. The movie starts with these words...", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 1, "text": "That's the character Bonasera, who has come to the Godfather, Don Vito Corleone, to ask a favor. Bonasera's daughter was brutally beaten after she resisted two boys who had tried to take advantage of her. Bonasera says he went to the police, like a good American. The boys were tried in court, but the judge gave them a suspended sentence, and they went free that very day. Now Bonasera wants revenge against those boys. The Godfather, played by Marlon Brando, offers this response.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Bonasera) I believe in America. America has made my fortune."}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 2, "text": "Francis Ford Coppola, welcome to FRESH AIR. It's such an interesting way to start the movie because we're starting the movie by looking at a man, tight close-up of his face. We don't yet know who he is. He's speaking, then it pulls back and then we see he's speaking to Brando, and then we hear Brando speak, you know, Don Corleone. So why did you make that the opening of the movie?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Don Vito Corleone) Prego."}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 3, "text": "Are there ideas and images, stories from your own family that you put in that opening wedding scene?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, actually, I was working on the screenplay in a little cottage, one-room cottage, in Mill Valley. And I had begun the sequence with the wedding itself, you know, the looser shots of the people co"}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 4, "text": "What about after the movie? Did you meet any of them then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely. I knew nothing about five crime families which had recently become exposed to the public with the publication of \"The Valachi Papers.\" But neither did Mario Puzo, who was also Italian "}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I always - Mario Puzo was just a wonderful man. And I always took his advice to heart. And once when I was working on \"Godfather Part III,\" which in my mind was \"The Death Of Michael Corleon"}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 6, "text": "I'm sure people who were in the mob would be very flattered to hear that comparison to vampires", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But if you don't invite him, then he - then they won't."}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But if you don't invite him, then he - then they won't."}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 8, "text": "Did you worry, though, that the film was setting the wrong example because the characters became such heroes of popular culture, and there were Italian Americans who felt that, like, you were discrediting Italian Americans?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, unfortunately, they are Italians and Americans, but they were not human beings that acted beyond being like animals, in my opinion."}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 9, "text": "Yes, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, in truth, I was worried about so many things during the making of that movie."}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 10, "text": "I'm sorry to hear it. Thank you so much for making the movie in spite of that. So you write that when you actually - you were invited to direct the movie by the studio, by Paramount.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I was, like, about 29 when I started. I had two kids and one about to be born. I had absolutely no money. I was making what had become a more important film than it was when I got the opport"}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 11, "text": "Then you sat down and read the book, and you write, I read it eagerly but barely finished it. And you almost didn't make the movie because you didn't really like the book in spite of the nice things you said about Mario Puzo. What didn't you like about the book?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And..."}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 12, "text": "Did you ever tell Mario Puzo your thoughts about the novel?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had thought from its title and intriguing logo and the name Mario Puzo that this was a kind of Italian intellectual writer, like a kind of, you know, Moravia - something - and it was going to "}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 13, "text": "It did", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. He knew. And, you know, he had written a beautiful book called \"The Fortunate Pilgrim,\" which he felt was the best book he ever wrote, which also was about immigrants. But it was very respected "}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. He knew. And, you know, he had written a beautiful book called \"The Fortunate Pilgrim,\" which he felt was the best book he ever wrote, which also was about immigrants. But it was very respected "}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 15, "text": "Yeah. The Mario Puzo novel \"The Godfather\" is set in the '70s. The movie, \"Part I,\" is set - you know, starts out in the mid-1940s, just after World War II. Why did you want to change the time that it was set in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it did."}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 16, "text": "Oh, they wanted it set in the '70s.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't change the time. That's the way the novel is. The novel starts out exactly - I was very loyal to the novel after I had derived what the movie would be. And it was set in the '40s. That was - "}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 17, "text": "Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 18, "text": "I see. OK. So that was one of your first fights with the studio.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because - and you know why, of course. If you make a movie during the contemporary period that the movie's being made, you don't have to have special cars. You don't have to have special costumes. You"}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 19, "text": "So the book that was just published, \"The Godfather Notebook,\" is what you describe as your prompt book. And you say this is the kind of book that usually, like - what, like, stage managers used with, like, lighting cues and exits. You also have your notes to yourself. You have summaries of each scene. And you have what you call the core idea of each scene. This is an idea that you borrowed from Elia Kazan. So I want to play a scene, and then I'm going to ask you what the core idea was. So this is a scene at the wedding early in the film. And Michael, played by Al Pacino, is explaining to his girlfriend Kay, played by Diane Keaton, that his father knows the famous singer Johnny Fontane, who has just showed up at the wedding. And Kay says, like, gee, how does your father know him? And then Michael explains. And in explaining, he explains a little bit about the family business.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very big fight because they had planned to use this script - I mean, the script had hippies in it because it was being - going to be set in the '70s. And the studio was just - had this young director "}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 20, "text": "That's my family, Kay. It's not me. So what was the core idea of that scene?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Michael Corleone) Luca Brasi held a gun to his head, and my father assured him that either his brains or his signature would be on the contract. That's a true story. That's my family, Kay. It's no"}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 21, "text": "So in your notebook, you write that clearly Johnny, the singer, is a movie star. And you write, should you cast the only star in the movie in that role, and - though Brando was already a star, so...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Michael's dressed in the uniform of a Marine, and Kay is clearly his non-Italian - or WASP, as Mario would say - girlfriend. And the core of the scene was - so it means he's serious about her. A"}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 22, "text": "Oh, he wasn't cast yet. OK. So were you thinking of casting Eddie Fisher? Did I read that right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But Brando wasn't casted."}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 23, "text": "And what happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, for Johnny Fontane, I liked very much Eddie Fisher, although he was not Italian. But I also liked Vic Damone. I had several thoughts."}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 24, "text": "Afraid of retribution from Sinatra or from people Sinatra was connected with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't remember what happened with Eddie Fisher, but Vic Damone politely declined. Vic Damone was known to, you know, know that Frank Sinatra was not so happy about the reference. And, you know, they"}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 25, "text": "In each scene in your notebook, you have a list of pitfalls you might fall into. And perhaps the most common one that you're worried about is cliche. What were your - some of your biggest worries about turning the material into cliches?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All the above."}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 26, "text": "You also wanted to avoid the dialogue sounding too \"Guys and Dolls\"-y. So what were your fears there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, having been raised in the family of Italian Americans who - all of them were accomplished musicians. They weren't gangsters, certainly. But so much of the detail of life - what the bottle of ani"}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 27, "text": "If I'm not mistaken, it was your grandparents who were the immigrants in your family.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, just that, you know, Italian Americans were always portrayed in the movies, even on stage, a certain way - gangsters were. And I knew different because that was - those were my family. My father"}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 28, "text": "Did you know them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes, all four. My mother's family were from Naples, and my father's family was from what's called Lucania or otherwise known as Basilicata."}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 29, "text": "I wasn't sure, like, how long they lived.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Oh, yeah. They..."}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 30, "text": "About the character Clemenza who is, like, very heavy, that he's not only a heavy, he's - he weighs a lot. He's heavy", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, yeah, my - the most charismatic character, whom all of the uncles - they were all boys. My father's father had seven boys, and those were my - of course, my uncles. And they all imitated my grandf"}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 31, "text": ". And he, like - he's the one who's cooking the sauce in the movie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, yeah, my - the most charismatic character, whom all of the uncles - they were all boys. My father's father had seven boys, and those were my - of course, my uncles. And they all imitated my grandf"}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 32, "text": "And you write about him in your notes that he has to be believable as the type that would be everybody's favorite uncle but also a killer. Did you have an uncle who resembled him in any way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 33, "text": "So you write to yourself in \"The Godfather Notebook\" with \"The Godfather,\" there is always the possibility of immediate and sudden violence. That's certainly true. You had to decide how explicitly violent to make it. What was your conversation with yourself about how the violence should be handled?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So he - so that's how Mario was. He was always, like, you know, correcting with notes on the page. And he was one - it's true, you know, gangsters would never say brown."}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 34, "text": "I thought about that when watching Sonny Corleone get shot.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I confessed that I was very impressed with Arthur Penn's \"Bonnie And Clyde,\" and..."}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 35, "text": "OK. Well, perhaps the most, or at least one of the most memorable scenes implying violence in \"The Godfather\" is the horse's head scene. It's the scene...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Without a doubt. And I thought that the effects, the depiction of violence in \"Bonnie And Clyde\" always had an imaginative twist to it that it's one thing to see someone shoot someone, but if there's "}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 36, "text": "Yes, OK, so why don't you set up what happens? Like, what happens in that scene?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a good example because it's not done in the movie the way it's done in the book."}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 37, "text": "In your notebook, you keep a list of pitfalls, of things that you were afraid to fall into.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there is a famous movie producer who is proud of his stable of beautiful stallions and priceless - a horse could cost half a million dollars or more in the '40s. And they've asked him to coopera"}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 38, "text": "That you should avoid. So your pitfall to not fall into for this scene, you write, if the audience does not jump out of their seat on this one, you have failed. Too much in the Corman horror film tradition would be a mistake. And you had worked for Corman early on in your career.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That I should avoid, try to avoid."}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 39, "text": "You write, one must find the perfect balance of horror without losing the thread of the overall film. Deliver it, and get out. So you wanted a kind of horror element but not to make it kind of like a cheap horror film.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Indeed."}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 40, "text": "So casting Marlon Brando was just such a really brilliant stroke and stroke of luck as you were able to get him. And I want to play what Mario Puzo told me in 1996 when I interviewed him about casting Brando - about how Brando got cast in the movie. So can I play that for you? And then...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, and also everyone knew - they had read the book. That was one of the famous scenes of the book. So how could I mislead them to think that maybe what they thought was going to happen wasn't going"}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 41, "text": "OK. So this is Mario Puzo, who wrote the novel \"The Godfather,\" speaking with me in 1996 about casting Marlon Brando.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course."}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 42, "text": "You did pick Brando?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm the guy that picked Brando."}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 43, "text": "What did you say in your letter to Marlon Brando when you were inviting him to play the part?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure. I wrote him a letter. And he called me up. And we had a chat. And then I tried to get Paramount to take him, and they refused. And then when the director came on the picture, I talked to the"}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 44, "text": "Danny Thomas. Wow", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was something like, help. They're going to kill me. They're going to cast - I think it was Donny (ph) - Danny Thomas as the godfather."}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 45, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was something like, help. They're going to kill me. They're going to cast - I think it was Donny (ph) - Danny Thomas as the godfather."}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 46, "text": "OK. Francis Ford Coppola, you are the director. I suppose Puzo talked to you. And you made it happen. Can you pick up the story from there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, he was going to buy Paramount so he could play the role. At that time, Paramount wasn't really worth that much. And Danny Thomas was very rich off television. And I read an item. He was go"}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 47, "text": "But you won. How did you win?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's true that Mario had always liked the idea of Brando. But, you know, Mario was often Bay Shore. He was not really on the scene so much as - even a lot of my work with him was my sending him "}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 48, "text": "So did he do the movie for free?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". You know, so at least they were saying if I did three things - have a screen test, if I could get him to do the movie for nothing and if I could have him put up a million dollars, which is absurd - "}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 49, "text": "So you played this kind of little trick. And he did improv on - or whatever on film for you. What did he bring to that audition that he didn't realize was an audition?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I called him up. And I said to Marlon, Marlon, you know, of course, this is an Italian American, you know - wouldn't it be fun if we could, like, do a little experiment and kind of improv and see "}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 50, "text": "People were afraid in the studio that Brando would be hard to work with, and he would create problems. Did any of that happen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had always heard the rumor that Marlon Brando didn't like loud noises. And he always wore things in his ears. So I took a couple of my colleagues from San Francisco from this period of, you kn"}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 51, "text": "Was it Brando's idea to stuff his cheeks so that he'd look really jolly?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Yeah, not at all. He was a joy to - you know, you don't talk a lot to Marlon. You sort of just give him - like, I would take a cat and put it in his hands, or I would have some Italian pro"}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 52, "text": "So the studio didn't want you to cast Al Pacino in the role of Michael Corleone. So how did you win that one?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. He said he wanted to look like a bulldog."}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 53, "text": "I want to ask you about the final scene of \"The Godfather,\" where Michael basically draws the line between what's business and what's family. Kay wants to know if it's true that Michael killed Carlo, his brother-in-law, his sister's husband. And Michael says, you know, I'm not going to talk to you about business. There's a line between family and business. But then he tells her, just this once, I'll tell you. And he lies to her, and he says, no, I didn't kill him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Well, the problem is that when - I had known Al a little bit before. So when I read \"The Godfather\" book as - I had him pictured in my mind. I saw him walking through Sicily with the two s"}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 54, "text": "Exactly. I mean, literally - like, he walks into another room where there's a business meeting about to take place in their home.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But that's been set up throughout the movie if you even - even then the scene we discussed before, when he goes to ask her to marry her, he says, just this one time, I'll tell you something. When he t"}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 55, "text": "Right. And somebody else comes over. One of his men comes over and shuts the door - basically shuts the door on her. So the last shot we see is of his wife getting shut out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's the meeting of him becoming the godfather. They're kissing his hand just as the door is closed."}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 56, "text": "And it's a really interesting place to end the movie. I don't think that's how the novel ends.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 57, "text": "Hoping to save his soul.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. The novel ends with a scene that, indeed, we did shoot, which is Kay going to church, lighting candles for him. But..."}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 58, "text": "And we're kind of like her 'cause she loved him, and she believed in him. And we like him a lot at the beginning, I mean, in the sense that, like, he's not part of the killing. He's not connected to the business. He slowly becomes part of it. And we have to keep asking ourselves, who is he becoming? - throughout the film. And how do we feel about him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, but because that thread of don't ask me about my family. Don't ask me about my business. Don't ask me. Don't - I'll tell you this, but I'm not going to tell you any more - he finally s"}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 59, "text": "Francis Ford Coppola, thank you so much for talking with us about \"The Godfather.\" Thank you so much for making \"The Godfather\" and for insisting on the things that you wanted to make it as good as it is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I always - you know, when I make a movie, I always have to have a theme, preferably in one word, that I can - when I made \"The Conversation,\" the theme was privacy. When I made \"The Godfather,\" "}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 60, "text": "Francis Ford Coppola recorded in 2016, after the publication of his book, which reproduced the notebook that he wrote and referred to during the making of his masterpiece, \"The Godfather.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much and for your wonderful program, which I have enjoyed throughout many years."}
{"id": "952279387", "date": "2021-01-01", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To Make 'The Godfather' His Way, Francis Ford Coppola Waged A Studio Battle", "question_index": 61, "text": "Francis Ford Coppola has just restored and reedited the third film in his \"Godfather\" trilogy. It has a new title, too - \"Mario Puzo's The Godfather, Coda: The Death Of Michael Corleone.\" It's available on video on demand. Monday on FRESH AIR, our guest will be CNN's chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta. He's also a practicing neurosurgeon. He's written a new book about the brain that explains some of the latest research, debunks myths about brain function and offers practical advice on improving your brain's function and resilience. We'll also talk about COVID, which he's been covering for CNN. I hope you'll join us. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering support by Joyce Lieberman and Julian Herzfeld. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Kayla Lattimore. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. All of us at FRESH AIR wish you a happy and healthy new year. We'll close with this New Year song by Peggy Lee, who also wrote the lyric. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Clemenza) Don Corleone."}
{"id": "953902894", "date": "2021-01-06", "guest": "Maria Ressa", "title": "Philippine Journalist Says Rodrigo Duterte's Presidency Is Based On 'Fear, Violence'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. At a time when many journalists are facing increasing threats around the world, my guest, Maria Ressa, has stood up to one of the world's most dangerous leaders. Ressa is a co-founder and executive editor of Rappler, an online media organization based in Manila. She's been covering the rise of the populist authoritarian President Rodrigo Duterte since he was a mayor in the Philippines. When he became president in 2016, Ressa and her reporters covered Duterte's bloody war on drugs, his expanding grip on all parts of the government and his crackdown on the press. Ressa and Rappler have faced 13 government investigations. She now faces nine criminal charges. In June, Ressa and another reporter were convicted of cyberlibel, defaming someone online. It's a Filipino law that's being applied retroactively because the law didn't even exist when the alleged crime was committed. They are appealing and are still fighting other charges. They also face constant threats of assassination and jail from Duterte, his supporters and the army of Internet trolls they unleash. Ressa sees this abuse of power and the weaponized use of the Internet as a danger to democracies everywhere. Maria Ressa was born in the Philippines and grew up in the U.S. She worked for CNN for two decades. She ran CNN's bureau in Manila and then the Jakarta bureau and served as CNN's lead investigative reporter focusing on terrorism in the region. Ressa decided to make Manila her home and created Rappler. Her fearless work has garnered attention worldwide. In 2018, she was named Time magazine's Person of the Year. Now there's a documentary about her work called \"A Thousand Cuts,\" directed by Ramona Diaz. It will be shown this Friday on the \"Frontline\" series on PBS stations and online. Maria Ressa, welcome to FRESH AIR. And I so admire your courage and the journalism that you have been doing. So thank you for coming on our show.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "953902894", "date": "2021-01-06", "guest": "Maria Ressa", "title": "Philippine Journalist Says Rodrigo Duterte's Presidency Is Based On 'Fear, Violence'", "question_index": 1, "text": "I want to quote some of the things that President Duterte has said. And this first one got a lot of applause. He said, if you don't kill me now, four months from now, I'll roast you like a pig. He said, just because you're a journalist, you think you're exempted from assassination? In a speech he said, when I became president, I said, do not do drugs because I will kill you. I have three more years. I'm really going to finish you off. You'll see. At his inaugural address, he said, if you're into drugs, someday, you'll make a mistake. And I will kill you. It's just horrifying to hear a president speak about killing his citizens like that. Do you take him at his word, especially with journalists, saying that just because you're a journalist, you're not exempt from assassination?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having me."}
{"id": "953902894", "date": "2021-01-06", "guest": "Maria Ressa", "title": "Philippine Journalist Says Rodrigo Duterte's Presidency Is Based On 'Fear, Violence'", "question_index": 2, "text": "In one of your interviews with President Duterte, you said to him, you break the law. You've threatened to break the law. You've said you killed. And yet you have the task of keeping the rule of law. Is it important that people be afraid of you? And he answered, yes. For the rule of law, there must be fear. So that's a very brave question to have asked him, especially since his government has been investigating and threatening you. What is it like for you to confront him with questions like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that's the one thing he's always delivered, his threats. You know, the funny thing is in 2015, which was when we were trying to figure out was he really going to run or not, I sat down with hi"}
{"id": "953902894", "date": "2021-01-06", "guest": "Maria Ressa", "title": "Philippine Journalist Says Rodrigo Duterte's Presidency Is Based On 'Fear, Violence'", "question_index": 3, "text": "What", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, that was December of 2016. And I was one of four reporters that he gave an interview to at the palace. With President Duterte at that point, I was really curious because all of the things th"}
{"id": "953902894", "date": "2021-01-06", "guest": "Maria Ressa", "title": "Philippine Journalist Says Rodrigo Duterte's Presidency Is Based On 'Fear, Violence'", "question_index": 4, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, that was December of 2016. And I was one of four reporters that he gave an interview to at the palace. With President Duterte at that point, I was really curious because all of the things th"}
{"id": "953902894", "date": "2021-01-06", "guest": "Maria Ressa", "title": "Philippine Journalist Says Rodrigo Duterte's Presidency Is Based On 'Fear, Violence'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Because that makes no sense, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah, yeah. See; this is what - when I actually go into it, I just go, oh, my God. So we are no longer..."}
{"id": "953902894", "date": "2021-01-06", "guest": "Maria Ressa", "title": "Philippine Journalist Says Rodrigo Duterte's Presidency Is Based On 'Fear, Violence'", "question_index": 6, "text": "Well, that makes as much sense as being tried retroactively for a law that didn't exist when the so-called crime was committed, which is what happened to you with the libel case. So it is really remarkable what you're facing now. One of Duterte's first moves as president was to initiate a war on drugs, which he promised you in an interview would be bloody. And he wasn't kidding. There were bodies on the street. What did he say he was trying to do? Like, in all of the clips that I've heard from him and from the man he appointed as the leader of the war on drugs, they're going after addicts. I don't hear them talking about the big dealers who are, basically, addicting other people. They're talking about the addicts who have, like, a health crisis because they're addicted.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we were reclassified as a dealer in securities. That's the exact quote. So Rappler, as an entity, is not a news organization. We are a, quote, \"dealer in securities.\" And because we are, we then"}
{"id": "953902894", "date": "2021-01-06", "guest": "Maria Ressa", "title": "Philippine Journalist Says Rodrigo Duterte's Presidency Is Based On 'Fear, Violence'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Do you think that the victims were really addicts, or do you think that they were targeted for other reasons? And an addict should not be killed. I mean, that's just, like, horrifying.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And that's - you know, I think you look at Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International - all the reports that we have done will show you that the poor have borne the brunt of the drug war. And the "}
{"id": "953902894", "date": "2021-01-06", "guest": "Maria Ressa", "title": "Philippine Journalist Says Rodrigo Duterte's Presidency Is Based On 'Fear, Violence'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Yeah. I mean, obviously, addicts should not be murdered by the government, but I'm not even sure they were addicts. Was there another agenda underneath that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, exactly, right? You see the difference right there. Right, right. And so..."}
{"id": "953902894", "date": "2021-01-06", "guest": "Maria Ressa", "title": "Philippine Journalist Says Rodrigo Duterte's Presidency Is Based On 'Fear, Violence'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Wow. Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the first agenda is exactly what President Duterte said, right? Fear, violence - this is how he leads. It worked in Davao City, where he was mayor on and off since 1988. His family has essential"}
{"id": "953902894", "date": "2021-01-06", "guest": "Maria Ressa", "title": "Philippine Journalist Says Rodrigo Duterte's Presidency Is Based On 'Fear, Violence'", "question_index": 10, "text": "How has it done that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it's not - and the virus has brought out the weaknesses of the administration, of Duterte's style of leadership, as it has with Trump. But I think the difference is that in the Philippines, the loc"}
{"id": "953902894", "date": "2021-01-06", "guest": "Maria Ressa", "title": "Philippine Journalist Says Rodrigo Duterte's Presidency Is Based On 'Fear, Violence'", "question_index": 11, "text": "My guest is Maria Ressa, the executive editor and CEO of Rappler, an online media organization in the Philippines. She and Rappler have been under attack by the government of the authoritarian president, Rodrigo Duterte. A documentary about her called \"A Thousand Cuts\" will be shown Friday night on Frontline on PBS stations and online at pbs.org and on YouTube. We'll be back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "May 5, in the middle of the lockdown, the government, a small regulatory agency - as it did with Rappler - demanded that ABS-CBN, the largest broadcaster in the Philippines, shut down within hours. It"}
{"id": "953902894", "date": "2021-01-06", "guest": "Maria Ressa", "title": "Philippine Journalist Says Rodrigo Duterte's Presidency Is Based On 'Fear, Violence'", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. My guest is Maria Ressa, the executive editor and CEO of Rappler, an online media organization based in Manila. The president of the Philippines, Rodrigo Duterte, has threatened to shut it down and has warned journalists they're not safe from assassination. The Frontline series will show a documentary about Ressa called \"A Thousand Cuts\" this Friday night on PBS stations. One of the things that you and your publication have been investigating is where is all the disinformation, where are all the false narratives coming from? How did you first realize that there was an organized online campaign to attack Rappler and that much of the social media was being sent by fake accounts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "May 5, in the middle of the lockdown, the government, a small regulatory agency - as it did with Rappler - demanded that ABS-CBN, the largest broadcaster in the Philippines, shut down within hours. It"}
{"id": "953902894", "date": "2021-01-06", "guest": "Maria Ressa", "title": "Philippine Journalist Says Rodrigo Duterte's Presidency Is Based On 'Fear, Violence'", "question_index": 13, "text": "So you can't respond to 90 hate postings an hour. But, really, a lot of those postings were from fake accounts. They weren't even really people, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my gosh. So we live on social media, you know. Before the website of Rappler was created in 2012, we - I actually started this on Facebook. We started as a Facebook page. And if Facebook search ha"}
{"id": "953902894", "date": "2021-01-06", "guest": "Maria Ressa", "title": "Philippine Journalist Says Rodrigo Duterte's Presidency Is Based On 'Fear, Violence'", "question_index": 14, "text": "But you found out. You found out that this was artificially generated.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We didn't know it then. And that's something that we discovered, right?"}
{"id": "953902894", "date": "2021-01-06", "guest": "Maria Ressa", "title": "Philippine Journalist Says Rodrigo Duterte's Presidency Is Based On 'Fear, Violence'", "question_index": 15, "text": "And you'd covered terrorism, so you know what you're talking about.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And, you know, if you go - and the first hint I had was actually by looking over Facebook's disclosures. So in a U.S. disclosure, they actually said that the Philippines - in a footnote, that the"}
{"id": "953902894", "date": "2021-01-06", "guest": "Maria Ressa", "title": "Philippine Journalist Says Rodrigo Duterte's Presidency Is Based On 'Fear, Violence'", "question_index": 16, "text": "In the film, you say people often ask you - people who are not Filipino ask you, why should I care about Duterte and what happens in the Philippines? What's your answer to that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly, right? So it was really like - we used natural language processing to look at the clusters of what messages these networks were spreading and then looked at the networks and how they evolved."}
{"id": "953902894", "date": "2021-01-06", "guest": "Maria Ressa", "title": "Philippine Journalist Says Rodrigo Duterte's Presidency Is Based On 'Fear, Violence'", "question_index": 17, "text": "You mentioned Cambridge Analytica. This is a voting profile company that harvested social media profiles and used them to target people susceptible to disinformation and then sent them false narratives. Steve Bannon was involved with the company, and Chris Wylie, who you referred to, was the whistleblower. So, yeah, he says the Philippines was one of the testing grounds before trying it out in the U.S. Let me take a short break here, and then we can talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Maria Ressa, the executive editor and CEO of Rappler, an online media organization in the Philippines investigating the authoritarian president, Rodrigo Duterte, and his government. The publication is trying to fight against the massive spread of disinformation by publishing the facts. She and the publication have been under attack by the government. A documentary about her will be shown Friday night on PBS stations as part of the Frontline series. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've been saying this for four years, and I now know what Cassandra and Sisyphus feel like combined. We were - you can say we were the canary in the coal mine, or you could go with what Cambridge Anal"}
{"id": "953902894", "date": "2021-01-06", "guest": "Maria Ressa", "title": "Philippine Journalist Says Rodrigo Duterte's Presidency Is Based On 'Fear, Violence'", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Maria Ressa, the executive editor and CEO of Rappler, an online media organization based in Manila. The journalists at Rappler have been investigating the authoritarian president, Rodrigo Duterte, and other government officials. Rappler is fighting against the spread of disinformation by publishing the facts. The government has tried to shut down the publication. And Ressa has been arrested several times by the government. In June, she was found guilty of cyberlibel, defaming someone online, and faces the possibility of six years in prison. The article referred to in the charge was written several months before the cyberlibel law even existed. The series \"Frontline\" will feature a documentary about Ressa called \"A Thousand Cuts\" on PBS stations and online this Friday night. Because you're a woman, some of the hate posts threatened you with rape. And that happened to other women at Rappler, too. And I'm hoping nobody was actually raped.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've been saying this for four years, and I now know what Cassandra and Sisyphus feel like combined. We were - you can say we were the canary in the coal mine, or you could go with what Cambridge Anal"}
{"id": "953902894", "date": "2021-01-06", "guest": "Maria Ressa", "title": "Philippine Journalist Says Rodrigo Duterte's Presidency Is Based On 'Fear, Violence'", "question_index": 19, "text": "In the U.S., a lot of people who do not support Trump have been asking, what is the appeal of somebody who has made so many baseless claims, who has threatened journalists and who's often - seems to have no interest in actually governing? And I'm wondering if you have figured out what is the appeal of Duterte, because he has a lot of followers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no. I mean, the worse it did - all of that online violence did move into the real world when two supporters of President Duterte came to our office, livestreamed them going through our security. A"}
{"id": "953902894", "date": "2021-01-06", "guest": "Maria Ressa", "title": "Philippine Journalist Says Rodrigo Duterte's Presidency Is Based On 'Fear, Violence'", "question_index": 20, "text": "How long is Duterte's term? And what do you expect from him in the future?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, he does. I think there are two things. And one of our reporters actually says this in the film. You know, he - populism brings an illusion of power to people who may feel powerless. And our repor"}
{"id": "953902894", "date": "2021-01-06", "guest": "Maria Ressa", "title": "Philippine Journalist Says Rodrigo Duterte's Presidency Is Based On 'Fear, Violence'", "question_index": 21, "text": "I want to hear more about how you think Duterte's attacks on journalists and attacks on other people who oppose him have changed your approach to journalism as the executive editor of the Rappler.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So a Philippine president is only entitled to one six-year term. So he's in office until our next presidential elections is in - on May 2022. And what do we expect? Well, look; that Chinese network, t"}
{"id": "953902894", "date": "2021-01-06", "guest": "Maria Ressa", "title": "Philippine Journalist Says Rodrigo Duterte's Presidency Is Based On 'Fear, Violence'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Maria Ressa, the executive editor and CEO of Rappler, an online media organization based in Manila. The president of the Philippines, Rodrigo Duterte, has threatened to shut it down and has warned journalists they're not safe from assassination. The PBS series, \"Frontline,\" will show a documentary about Ressa Friday night. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So that's a great question. I'll say it from experience, right? So the first target of attack, the woman who went to jail early on in February, 2017, was Senator Leila de Lima, former justice secretar"}
{"id": "953902894", "date": "2021-01-06", "guest": "Maria Ressa", "title": "Philippine Journalist Says Rodrigo Duterte's Presidency Is Based On 'Fear, Violence'", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Maria Ressa, the executive editor and CEO of Rappler, an online media organization in the Philippines investigating the authoritarian president, Rodrigo Duterte, and his government. The publication is trying to fight against the massive spread of disinformation by publishing the facts. She and the publication have been under attack by the government. A documentary about her and her work will be shown Friday night on PBS stations as part of the \"Frontline\" series. Part of your arrest is filmed for the documentary that's about to be shown Friday on \"Frontline.\" And you speak to the press after you're arrested. And you are so cool and so calm, and your thoughts are so kind of organized when you make those comments. And I was watching you thinking, how does she do that? How does she remain calm at a time like this and just, you know, say what she needs to say?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So that's a great question. I'll say it from experience, right? So the first target of attack, the woman who went to jail early on in February, 2017, was Senator Leila de Lima, former justice secretar"}
{"id": "953902894", "date": "2021-01-06", "guest": "Maria Ressa", "title": "Philippine Journalist Says Rodrigo Duterte's Presidency Is Based On 'Fear, Violence'", "question_index": 24, "text": "That is so interesting that your CNN experience doing live reporting helped you. That make - it makes a lot of sense. On a related note, do you think that the cameras - the cameras from the documentary about you, the other cameras from the press - do you think that they protect you in any way or do they make things worse because it caused more attention to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was so angry. You know, when I watched that - when I watched the film, it was like getting punched in the gut. Because when you live through it, it's like it happens in slow motion, and you take it,"}
{"id": "953902894", "date": "2021-01-06", "guest": "Maria Ressa", "title": "Philippine Journalist Says Rodrigo Duterte's Presidency Is Based On 'Fear, Violence'", "question_index": 25, "text": "So there's a scene in which you're preparing for the awards ceremony for the Time Magazine 100 - what is it? - most important people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, they protect. You know, at the beginning, if you come under attack, you think that - you know, just be quiet. At least that's the impact in the Philippines of President Duterte. That's what I saw "}
{"id": "953902894", "date": "2021-01-06", "guest": "Maria Ressa", "title": "Philippine Journalist Says Rodrigo Duterte's Presidency Is Based On 'Fear, Violence'", "question_index": 26, "text": "The Time 100. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Time 100. Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "953902894", "date": "2021-01-06", "guest": "Maria Ressa", "title": "Philippine Journalist Says Rodrigo Duterte's Presidency Is Based On 'Fear, Violence'", "question_index": 27, "text": "So you're going to be honored at that because you're one of the 100. And you're visiting family while you're there in the U.S. And your sister is holding up this, like, slinky black gown and says this is what you need to wear. And you look at it kind of in horror.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "953902894", "date": "2021-01-06", "guest": "Maria Ressa", "title": "Philippine Journalist Says Rodrigo Duterte's Presidency Is Based On 'Fear, Violence'", "question_index": 28, "text": "You say, I don't dress like that. And she said - and you say, it's - the gown is too long. And your sister says, no, you lift it up. It's supposed to be that way. You lift it up when you walk. Then she holds up a pair of silver high heels, and you just kind of recoil and say, I don't wear heels. I can't walk in heels. And you say, I never dress like this, and I can't dress like this. Usually you're wearing either a hoodie or a blazer and pants.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "953902894", "date": "2021-01-06", "guest": "Maria Ressa", "title": "Philippine Journalist Says Rodrigo Duterte's Presidency Is Based On 'Fear, Violence'", "question_index": 29, "text": "So I just found that very entertaining.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "953902894", "date": "2021-01-06", "guest": "Maria Ressa", "title": "Philippine Journalist Says Rodrigo Duterte's Presidency Is Based On 'Fear, Violence'", "question_index": 30, "text": "And yourself - you want to be yourself.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess for me, it's like - it's comfort, right? I want to be comfortable. And I think you can look good and be comfortable at the same time."}
{"id": "953902894", "date": "2021-01-06", "guest": "Maria Ressa", "title": "Philippine Journalist Says Rodrigo Duterte's Presidency Is Based On 'Fear, Violence'", "question_index": 31, "text": "Yeah. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly, right?"}
{"id": "953902894", "date": "2021-01-06", "guest": "Maria Ressa", "title": "Philippine Journalist Says Rodrigo Duterte's Presidency Is Based On 'Fear, Violence'", "question_index": 32, "text": "But it says something about you as a person, you know. You're going to be comfortable and stand up for your right to wear what you want to wear in addition to just standing up against Duterte. You know, because it's hard. Award ceremonies are really hard when you don't conform in your clothes to what a woman is supposed to wear at an awards ceremony. You can buy a man's tuxedo or - it's just the choices are limited. And you have to, I think, make peace with the fact that you'll be considered the most under-dressed woman in the room.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "953902894", "date": "2021-01-06", "guest": "Maria Ressa", "title": "Philippine Journalist Says Rodrigo Duterte's Presidency Is Based On 'Fear, Violence'", "question_index": 33, "text": "I like standing up for a woman's right not to wear heels.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "953902894", "date": "2021-01-06", "guest": "Maria Ressa", "title": "Philippine Journalist Says Rodrigo Duterte's Presidency Is Based On 'Fear, Violence'", "question_index": 34, "text": "You face nine criminal charges now. You were found guilty of cyberlibel. You faced the possibility of six years in prison. How likely are you to actually be in prison for six years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God - never have. I've done so many of those things, right? And imagine, I think the very first time I had to do a promo photo for CNN, they wanted things that just - when you're on air also yo"}
{"id": "953902894", "date": "2021-01-06", "guest": "Maria Ressa", "title": "Philippine Journalist Says Rodrigo Duterte's Presidency Is Based On 'Fear, Violence'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Oh, yes, it's 11 o'clock your time at night. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. And I guess that's part of what's difficult about the last few years. That's only one of the nine criminal cases that have been filed against me, all of them, of course, politically moti"}
{"id": "953902894", "date": "2021-01-06", "guest": "Maria Ressa", "title": "Philippine Journalist Says Rodrigo Duterte's Presidency Is Based On 'Fear, Violence'", "question_index": 36, "text": "Well, listen. I wish you safety. I hope you stay out of prison. And I hope you stay healthy. Thank you for the work that you do. You're a very courageous woman.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think - I don't know what the future will look like, but I do know that every day that we hold the line, every day that we hold power to account makes it more certain that we will remain a dem"}
{"id": "953902894", "date": "2021-01-06", "guest": "Maria Ressa", "title": "Philippine Journalist Says Rodrigo Duterte's Presidency Is Based On 'Fear, Violence'", "question_index": 37, "text": "Maria Ressa is the executive editor and CEO of Rappler, an online media organization based in Manila. A documentary about her called \"A Thousand Cuts,\" directed by Ramona Diaz, is airing on \"Frontline\" on PBS stations and online at pbs.org and on YouTube this Friday night. After we take a short break, Maureen Corrigan will review a new novel, a Western set in 1894 in an alternative America that was torn apart by a flu epidemic. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. Thank you for having me and for listening to me."}
{"id": "954387123", "date": "2021-01-07", "guest": "Lawrence Wright", "title": "How Mistakes, Missed Opportunities Allowed COVID-19 To Ravage The U.S.", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Yesterday, before extremist, pro-Trump rioters, many without masks, stormed the Capitol building, I recorded an interview about the mistakes, missed opportunities and behind-the-scenes struggles that allowed the coronavirus to spread out of control across the U.S. The virus doesn't care about politics or the future of our democracy. The COVID numbers are spiking. And a new, more deadly strain has shown up in the U.S. Yesterday, we broke another single-day record for COVID deaths in the U.S., 3,963. I spoke with Lawrence Wright about his new article \"The Plague Year,\" which is published in the current issue of The New Yorker. His article helps answer the question, why is it that America accounts for 20% of all COVID deaths although America has only 4% of the world's population? A few years ago, in what now seems like a prescient move, Wright started working on a novel about a flu pandemic caused by a virus that kills 45% of the people it infects. By the time the novel was published last April, we were living through the COVID pandemic. There are many epidemiological and political parallels between what he imagined in his novel, called \"The End Of October,\" and what has happened in reality. He did a lot of research for the novel that has contributed to his reporting. Wright has also reported extensively on terrorism. He won a Pulitzer Prize for his 2000 book \"The Looming Tower: Al-Qaeda And The Road To 9/11.\" It was adapted into a Hulu series starring Jeff Daniels and Alec Baldwin. Wright is also the author of a book investigating Scientology called \"Going Clear: Scientology, Hollywood, And The Prison Of Belief,\" which was adapted into an HBO documentary. Wright is a staff writer for The New Yorker. Lawrence Wright, welcome back to FRESH AIR. So planning around the virus has been very chaotic under the Trump administration. President Biden and his administration are about to take over. Do you know what the reaction is within the CDC that Trump is leaving?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "954387123", "date": "2021-01-07", "guest": "Lawrence Wright", "title": "How Mistakes, Missed Opportunities Allowed COVID-19 To Ravage The U.S.", "question_index": 1, "text": "You write about moments when events might have turned out differently, turning points in the pandemic. One of the early ones was when the head of the Chinese CDC, George Fu Gao, assured the head of the American CDC, Robert Redfield, that there was no evidence of human-to-human transmission of the virus and that each case arose from exposure to exotic game at markets in China. Redfield was skeptical and offered to send a CDC team to China to help. But that never happened. Why not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can't quote any of my sources. But I can tell you that they feel like the fever has broken. And, you know, the CDC - you know, when I was a young reporter, I did several stories out of the Centers f"}
{"id": "954387123", "date": "2021-01-07", "guest": "Lawrence Wright", "title": "How Mistakes, Missed Opportunities Allowed COVID-19 To Ravage The U.S.", "question_index": 2, "text": "So one of the people who you write about, Matt Pottinger, was a deputy national security adviser who became aware of the virus early on. Can you talk about who he is and how he was trying to get the government to start preparing for the pandemic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, this is a question for the Chinese. But, you know, the same thing happened with the SARS outbreak in 2003. When that disease appeared, Chinese hid symptomatic patients from world healt"}
{"id": "954387123", "date": "2021-01-07", "guest": "Lawrence Wright", "title": "How Mistakes, Missed Opportunities Allowed COVID-19 To Ravage The U.S.", "question_index": 3, "text": "He had been a journalist with Reuters and The Wall Street Journal before he was in the military and before he worked with Michael Flynn or in the Trump administration. Do you think it was helpful that he had a journalism background, that he had some understanding of what a fact is and how to handle government distortions or exaggerations of facts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "national security advisers and quietly became one of the most important voices in American foreign policy. Early on, at the outbreak of the, you know, this new virus in China, he began to monitor Chin"}
{"id": "954387123", "date": "2021-01-07", "guest": "Lawrence Wright", "title": "How Mistakes, Missed Opportunities Allowed COVID-19 To Ravage The U.S.", "question_index": 4, "text": "My guest is Lawrence Wright, a staff writer for The New Yorker. His new article in the magazine is titled \"The Plague Year.\" We recorded our interview yesterday morning. Last night, Matt Pottinger, Trump's deputy national security adviser, who Wright has been talking about, resigned in objection to Trump's encouragement of yesterday's violent protests at and in the Capitol building. We'll hear more of our interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it was critical. You know, for one thing, you know, a reporter knows how to pick up the phone and call people to ask for information rather than just, you know, relying on the National S"}
{"id": "954387123", "date": "2021-01-07", "guest": "Lawrence Wright", "title": "How Mistakes, Missed Opportunities Allowed COVID-19 To Ravage The U.S.", "question_index": 5, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. If you're just joining us, my guest is Lawrence Wright, a staff writer for The New Yorker. His new article is called \"The Plague Year,\" and it's about the mistakes and behind-the-scenes struggles that enabled the coronavirus to spread across America. He's also the author of a novel called \"The End Of October\" about a flu pandemic that kills 45% of the people it infects. He started writing that novel years before the current pandemic, but the novel was actually published in the early days of the pandemic. The government had federal stockpiles of various emergency equipment and PPE. How come they never freed it up? Was there a big debate about that within the administration?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it was critical. You know, for one thing, you know, a reporter knows how to pick up the phone and call people to ask for information rather than just, you know, relying on the National S"}
{"id": "954387123", "date": "2021-01-07", "guest": "Lawrence Wright", "title": "How Mistakes, Missed Opportunities Allowed COVID-19 To Ravage The U.S.", "question_index": 6, "text": "There was a debate within the Trump administration about whether to shut down travel from China and then from Europe. The debate was partially about stopping the virus versus killing the economy. Can you talk about the debate within the Trump administration between people who were arguing, we have to stop the virus, and people who were arguing, it's going to hurt the economy and create a global depression?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. It's supposed to be a repository for emergency situations like the pandemic, and it's supposed to be a place where states can call upon the need for, you know, emergency supplies - ventilators, P"}
{"id": "954387123", "date": "2021-01-07", "guest": "Lawrence Wright", "title": "How Mistakes, Missed Opportunities Allowed COVID-19 To Ravage The U.S.", "question_index": 7, "text": "Trump takes a lot of credit for shutting down travel from China. When asked early on, like, what have you done to stop the pandemic, he always said, you know, I shut down China travel. That had a really big effect. What was his role in doing that? Did he have to be convinced?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Essentially, there were four camps in this. The public health people typically did not believe that travel bans were useful or effective. You know, they felt that there was a need for medicine and so "}
{"id": "954387123", "date": "2021-01-07", "guest": "Lawrence Wright", "title": "How Mistakes, Missed Opportunities Allowed COVID-19 To Ravage The U.S.", "question_index": 8, "text": "Let's talk about the coronavirus task force, which initially held almost daily public briefings. And sometimes Trump would attend and sometimes he wouldn't. What exists of the task force now? Does it still exist?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He did have to be convinced, but he was convinced, I mean, you know, he does deserve some credit for that. Unfortunately, the time we bought to, you know, try to slow the transmission inside the Unite"}
{"id": "954387123", "date": "2021-01-07", "guest": "Lawrence Wright", "title": "How Mistakes, Missed Opportunities Allowed COVID-19 To Ravage The U.S.", "question_index": 9, "text": "Scott Atlas, who became Trump's chief medical adviser, has some very out-of-the-mainstream views about medicine. What are some of those views?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nominally. It doesn't really meet. You know, it was created essentially in the National Security Council by Matt Pottinger, who assembled a group of, you know, Cabinet officers and deputies to try to "}
{"id": "954387123", "date": "2021-01-07", "guest": "Lawrence Wright", "title": "How Mistakes, Missed Opportunities Allowed COVID-19 To Ravage The U.S.", "question_index": 10, "text": "Do you think herd immunity is an attractive theory for President Trump? Because it basically means you don't have to do anything. The virus will kind of spread on its own. And then we'll develop herd immunity. So you don't need policies. You don't need to be vigilant. You don't need to wear masks. You don't need to organize things. You know, it's just going to happen.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, he - first of all, you know, and there's something to be said about his argument about keeping the schools open. But he also believed in allowing people to get infected in order to cre"}
{"id": "954387123", "date": "2021-01-07", "guest": "Lawrence Wright", "title": "How Mistakes, Missed Opportunities Allowed COVID-19 To Ravage The U.S.", "question_index": 11, "text": "We're listening back to the interview I recorded yesterday morning with Lawrence Wright, a staff writer for The New Yorker. His new article, \"The Plague Year,\" is in the current issue. His novel about a pandemic even more deadly than COVID is called \"The End Of October.\" We'll hear more of the interview after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the president hasn't said that, but his policies demonstrate that that's exactly what he feels. And, you know, his chief of staff, Mark Meadows, essentially said that. You know, he said that, yo"}
{"id": "954387123", "date": "2021-01-07", "guest": "Lawrence Wright", "title": "How Mistakes, Missed Opportunities Allowed COVID-19 To Ravage The U.S.", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Lawrence Wright, a staff writer for The New Yorker. His new article is called \"The Plague Year,\" and it's about the mistakes and behind the scenes struggles that enabled the coronavirus to spread across America. Before the pandemic, actually years before the pandemic started, he started writing a novel about a flu pandemic that was more lethal than COVID. And that novel, which is called \"The End of October,\" was published during the pandemic last April. You know, you say that once Scott Atlas became Trump's chief medical adviser, Trump stopped speaking to other health advisers. What impact do you think that had that he shut out the real epidemiologists, the real infectious disease experts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the president hasn't said that, but his policies demonstrate that that's exactly what he feels. And, you know, his chief of staff, Mark Meadows, essentially said that. You know, he said that, yo"}
{"id": "954387123", "date": "2021-01-07", "guest": "Lawrence Wright", "title": "How Mistakes, Missed Opportunities Allowed COVID-19 To Ravage The U.S.", "question_index": 13, "text": "Deborah Birx, who was on the coronavirus task force, ended up being a very controversial figure, criticized by both the left and the right. What can you tell us about her and why she was criticized by both sides?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the message of Scott Atlas that has been taken to heart by the Trump administration is surrender. The virus will do what it's going to do. We can't do anything effective to stop it, so why do "}
{"id": "954387123", "date": "2021-01-07", "guest": "Lawrence Wright", "title": "How Mistakes, Missed Opportunities Allowed COVID-19 To Ravage The U.S.", "question_index": 14, "text": "Because she didn't say anything. She didn't interrupt and say, that's ridiculous. That's dangerous.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's a fascinating story about Dr. Birx. She was the U.S. global AIDS ambassador and had been very effective in curbing the spread of AIDS in - especially in Africa and other developing coun"}
{"id": "954387123", "date": "2021-01-07", "guest": "Lawrence Wright", "title": "How Mistakes, Missed Opportunities Allowed COVID-19 To Ravage The U.S.", "question_index": 15, "text": "You write that Trump subverted his health agencies by installing political operatives who meddled with the science and suppressed the truth. Give us an example of that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She said that it would - probably not an effective therapy, you know, or a treatment. But what was she to say? You know, what she might have said in private people didn't hear, but she was an effectiv"}
{"id": "954387123", "date": "2021-01-07", "guest": "Lawrence Wright", "title": "How Mistakes, Missed Opportunities Allowed COVID-19 To Ravage The U.S.", "question_index": 16, "text": "Let's compare that. I know the sums are really different. But Peter Navarro, the trade adviser, wrote a memo at the end of February proposing a $3 billion supplemental budget appropriation to accelerate the vaccines, PPE for frontline workers and effective therapeutics. And Mick Mulvaney, Trump's acting chief of staff, decided $800 million was enough for now. So instead of getting 3 billion, it was 800 million to accelerate the vaccines, PPE and effective therapeutics. What was the thinking behind that? What was that - what went on behind the scenes in that incident?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the best example is Michael Caputo. And he was appointed the chief information officer for Health and Human Services. And, of course, HHS is the Cabinet position that oversees the National Insti"}
{"id": "954387123", "date": "2021-01-07", "guest": "Lawrence Wright", "title": "How Mistakes, Missed Opportunities Allowed COVID-19 To Ravage The U.S.", "question_index": 17, "text": "Let's take a short break here. I want to talk with you about your novel, which is about a pandemic. And you learned a lot about pandemics from writing that novel. But first, we have to take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Lawrence Wright. He's a staff writer for The New Yorker. He has a new article called \"The Plague Year,\" which is about the pandemic. We'll be right back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in that incident, the - you know, the money people won, they didn't want to hurt the economy. And they needed to do a gesture that would show that the administration was paying attention. And $8"}
{"id": "954387123", "date": "2021-01-07", "guest": "Lawrence Wright", "title": "How Mistakes, Missed Opportunities Allowed COVID-19 To Ravage The U.S.", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Lawrence Wright, a staff writer for The New Yorker. His new article is called \"The Plague Here.\" And it's about the mistakes and behind-the-scenes struggles that enabled the coronavirus to spread across America. He's also the author of a novel called \"The End Of October.\" That's about an even more lethal pandemic that kind of decimates the world and creates chaos in every aspect of life and government around the world. And he started writing that years before the current pandemic. But it was published last April during the COVID pandemic. Why did you want to write a novel about a pandemic before we actually had one?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in that incident, the - you know, the money people won, they didn't want to hurt the economy. And they needed to do a gesture that would show that the administration was paying attention. And $8"}
{"id": "954387123", "date": "2021-01-07", "guest": "Lawrence Wright", "title": "How Mistakes, Missed Opportunities Allowed COVID-19 To Ravage The U.S.", "question_index": 19, "text": "What was the answer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I - as I said, I had written stories out of CDC when I was a young reporter. And I was enchanted, honestly, by the world of public health and the kinds of people that are involved in i"}
{"id": "954387123", "date": "2021-01-07", "guest": "Lawrence Wright", "title": "How Mistakes, Missed Opportunities Allowed COVID-19 To Ravage The U.S.", "question_index": 20, "text": "We have a vaccine now...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know? The only difference in a century, you know, is that we have better masks. But, you know, we're in the same boat. We don't have the tools. Now..."}
{"id": "954387123", "date": "2021-01-07", "guest": "Lawrence Wright", "title": "How Mistakes, Missed Opportunities Allowed COVID-19 To Ravage The U.S.", "question_index": 21, "text": "...In theory.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we do now but..."}
{"id": "954387123", "date": "2021-01-07", "guest": "Lawrence Wright", "title": "How Mistakes, Missed Opportunities Allowed COVID-19 To Ravage The U.S.", "question_index": 22, "text": "As part of your research, you did a lot of research about earlier plagues and pandemics. What's the worst one that you researched?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. But - and, you know, science hasn't - I mean, in 1918, science barely knew what a virus was. So you know, we're far advanced in that. But I think that we had developed a kind of complacency with"}
{"id": "954387123", "date": "2021-01-07", "guest": "Lawrence Wright", "title": "How Mistakes, Missed Opportunities Allowed COVID-19 To Ravage The U.S.", "question_index": 23, "text": "But we need the right people to recognize that. We need the right government to recognize that and rebuild.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I think, you know, they're all horrible. But, you know, I was really fascinated by the Black Death in Italy in the 14th century. And I had a conversation with Gianna Pomata, who is a m"}
{"id": "954387123", "date": "2021-01-07", "guest": "Lawrence Wright", "title": "How Mistakes, Missed Opportunities Allowed COVID-19 To Ravage The U.S.", "question_index": 24, "text": "In creating your novel, did you want to create a competent or an incompetent federal government?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "we built the most powerful economy in the history of the world in the Great Depression, where we reshaped our society in the middle of the Depression, making it, you know, more just and equal. So - an"}
{"id": "954387123", "date": "2021-01-07", "guest": "Lawrence Wright", "title": "How Mistakes, Missed Opportunities Allowed COVID-19 To Ravage The U.S.", "question_index": 25, "text": "Yeah, right - yeah, a brilliant scheme. Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is journalist Lawrence Wright. His new article in The New Yorker is titled \"The Plague Year,\" and it's about the mistakes and behind-the-scenes struggles that enabled the coronavirus to spread across America. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...As if it was some sort of sinister publishing plot on my part to put out a book and then, when all the bookstores are closed..."}
{"id": "954387123", "date": "2021-01-07", "guest": "Lawrence Wright", "title": "How Mistakes, Missed Opportunities Allowed COVID-19 To Ravage The U.S.", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. My guest is Lawrence Wright, a staff writer for The New Yorker. His latest article is called \"The Plague Year,\" and it chronicles the first year of the COVID epidemic. He's also the author of a novel about a flu pandemic. He started that novel before COVID, but it was published last April during the pandemic. What did you get right in your novel that foreshadowed how the Trump administration responded to the pandemic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...As if it was some sort of sinister publishing plot on my part to put out a book and then, when all the bookstores are closed..."}
{"id": "954387123", "date": "2021-01-07", "guest": "Lawrence Wright", "title": "How Mistakes, Missed Opportunities Allowed COVID-19 To Ravage The U.S.", "question_index": 27, "text": "So in your novel, you created a virus task force headed by the vice president. The coronavirus task force was headed by Vice President Pence. Pence is a - it's hard to know what's ever going on", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, a lot of weird things - you know, I - for instance, you know, a task force was set up, and the vice president was put in charge. You know, that - a lot of people pointed to that. To me, there were"}
{"id": "954387123", "date": "2021-01-07", "guest": "Lawrence Wright", "title": "How Mistakes, Missed Opportunities Allowed COVID-19 To Ravage The U.S.", "question_index": 28, "text": "in his mind. You know, so - I've often wondered, and I don't know if you can answer this. Like, when the task force was more visible and he was heading it, what was his reaction when Trump would make baseless claims about the virus or say outrageous things, like maybe we should consider, you know, drinking bleach or, you know, getting sunlight into our body to kill the virus? I don't really know what his knowledge of science is and what he actually - the extent to which he actually believes the science or believes Trump on these things.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, a lot of weird things - you know, I - for instance, you know, a task force was set up, and the vice president was put in charge. You know, that - a lot of people pointed to that. To me, there were"}
{"id": "954387123", "date": "2021-01-07", "guest": "Lawrence Wright", "title": "How Mistakes, Missed Opportunities Allowed COVID-19 To Ravage The U.S.", "question_index": 29, "text": "Your father and your grandparents lived through the 1918 flu pandemic. Did they pass on any stories about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he is a cipher. But I talked to, you know, members of the task force, and they said that he was - you know, he ran the meeting very effectively. He was open to ideas. Governors - you know, he wa"}
{"id": "954387123", "date": "2021-01-07", "guest": "Lawrence Wright", "title": "How Mistakes, Missed Opportunities Allowed COVID-19 To Ravage The U.S.", "question_index": 30, "text": "There was a polio epidemic when you were very young. And you were paralyzed for about a day; your legs were paralyzed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It's - there's a line that goes through - a year that travels through all the cemeteries of the world in 1918. And yet people didn't remark on it. Even my father, who was three, was sick by it. And "}
{"id": "954387123", "date": "2021-01-07", "guest": "Lawrence Wright", "title": "How Mistakes, Missed Opportunities Allowed COVID-19 To Ravage The U.S.", "question_index": 31, "text": "And it might have been polio. You don't really know. And you'll probably - you may never know. But can you talk a little bit about what that experience was like and then what it was like to actually get the Salk vaccine - the polio vaccine - and know that you would be safe from polio?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "954387123", "date": "2021-01-07", "guest": "Lawrence Wright", "title": "How Mistakes, Missed Opportunities Allowed COVID-19 To Ravage The U.S.", "question_index": 32, "text": "Lawrence Wright, it's been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much. Thank you for your research.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, this is - it's a mixed story in some ways, Terry, because, you know, when I woke up that morning and couldn't move my legs, you know, I certainly thought it was polio. And I was - it was - a"}
{"id": "954387123", "date": "2021-01-07", "guest": "Lawrence Wright", "title": "How Mistakes, Missed Opportunities Allowed COVID-19 To Ravage The U.S.", "question_index": 33, "text": "Lawrence Wright is a staff writer for the New Yorker. We recorded our interview yesterday morning. His new article is titled \"The Plague Year.\" His novel about a pandemic is called \"The End Of October.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's always a pleasure to talk to you, Terry. Thank you."}
{"id": "954387123", "date": "2021-01-07", "guest": "Lawrence Wright", "title": "How Mistakes, Missed Opportunities Allowed COVID-19 To Ravage The U.S.", "question_index": 34, "text": "If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, like this week's interview with Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN's chief medical correspondent and a practicing neurosurgeon, about how to improve your brain's functioning and resilience, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Kayla Lattimore. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's always a pleasure to talk to you, Terry. Thank you."}
{"id": "954833226", "date": "2021-01-08", "guest": "Barry Lopez", "title": "Remembering Nature Writer Barry Lopez", "question_index": 0, "text": "Do you think that descriptions of what it's like to be, for instance, in the Grand Canyon...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had just come out of the Grand Canyon with Paul Winter, a musician, and the musicians that play with Paul and another small group of musicians who had traveled along with us and several friends and "}
{"id": "954833226", "date": "2021-01-08", "guest": "Barry Lopez", "title": "Remembering Nature Writer Barry Lopez", "question_index": 1, "text": "...Are really good reminders for readers who are sitting at home, maybe in the city or maybe in the country but far away from things of such natural wonder?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "954833226", "date": "2021-01-08", "guest": "Barry Lopez", "title": "Remembering Nature Writer Barry Lopez", "question_index": 2, "text": "One thing that that emerges over and over again in your latest collection of essays, \"Crossing Open Ground,\" is your willingness to challenge sanctimony and self-righteousness and to take on moral ambiguities, and one essay I'm thinking about is about a trip that you went on sailing with biologists who were killing seals for research, for important ecological research. Why don't you describe the research they were doing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you hope, as a writer, that they're good reminders. I - the only way I can really answer a question like that is to think about my own responsibilities or what I feel when I'm in the places that"}
{"id": "954833226", "date": "2021-01-08", "guest": "Barry Lopez", "title": "Remembering Nature Writer Barry Lopez", "question_index": 3, "text": "Did you have your mind made up before joining these researchers about whether or not this was justified killing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was necessary to unravel, if you will, the food web in this area in the Chukchi Sea, along the coast of Alaska, and, having done that, to see how animals related to each other there, how the food c"}
{"id": "954833226", "date": "2021-01-08", "guest": "Barry Lopez", "title": "Remembering Nature Writer Barry Lopez", "question_index": 4, "text": "In this recent collection of essays, you also write about watching the beached whales back in 1979...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I never had my mind made up. Life is too unfathomable and too complicated for any individual to stand up and say that he or she has it all figured out. In my - what I look at as my responsibility is t"}
{"id": "954833226", "date": "2021-01-08", "guest": "Barry Lopez", "title": "Remembering Nature Writer Barry Lopez", "question_index": 5, "text": "...Off the Oregon coast. And there were so many different kinds of people who had come to see the whales, and you write that there were ethical problems that beset the scientists, mystical considerations that occupied a lot of onlookers. But for the Parks Department, they had a real practical problem. How were they going to dispose of the dead whales?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "954833226", "date": "2021-01-08", "guest": "Barry Lopez", "title": "Remembering Nature Writer Barry Lopez", "question_index": 6, "text": "And the solution was they burned the whales, and you describe a little bit of what that was like. And then you say that no novelists, no historians, no moral philosophers, no Melville scholars, no painters were there. Should they have been? I mean...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "954833226", "date": "2021-01-08", "guest": "Barry Lopez", "title": "Remembering Nature Writer Barry Lopez", "question_index": 7, "text": "...Would you have liked for people like that to have been invited to witness the burning of the whales?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "954833226", "date": "2021-01-08", "guest": "Barry Lopez", "title": "Remembering Nature Writer Barry Lopez", "question_index": 8, "text": "Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Absolutely."}
{"id": "954833226", "date": "2021-01-08", "guest": "Barry Lopez", "title": "Remembering Nature Writer Barry Lopez", "question_index": 9, "text": "Barry, I'd like to ask you to read what I think is a very provocative paragraph from your epilogue of \"Arctic Dreams.\"", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1989 interview with Barry Lopez, who wrote fiction and nonfiction books and stories about nature. He died last month at age 75."}
{"id": "954833226", "date": "2021-01-08", "guest": "Barry Lopez", "title": "Remembering Nature Writer Barry Lopez", "question_index": 10, "text": "You know, I think that - one of the things, in a way, you're getting at there is an argument to a simplistic notion that once ecology is restored, you know, nature is good, people are good, and things are simple and just. And your encounters with nature aren't like that at all. I mean, there are terrible paradoxes and really dark things that you encounter. And I guess what I'm interested in finding out is if your confrontations with the natural world have led from dark things that you recognized in yourself or if you started to recognize those things in yourself more through your encounters with nature.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. This comes in a passage in which I have been dealing with a problem that was very difficult for me, and that is trying to understand the hunting behavior of my host, these men I was traveling wit"}
{"id": "954833226", "date": "2021-01-08", "guest": "Barry Lopez", "title": "Remembering Nature Writer Barry Lopez", "question_index": 11, "text": "You've written that freedom from dogma gives meaning to the world's celebration of life, that you don't want to impose on wolves your impression of what wolves should be like. They'll teach you what they're really like, and you will learn from that. Were you ever attached to dogma, though, when you started writing about nature?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd be hard pressed to answer the question, really, Terry. I don't - I think what happens, or what has happened to me, is that when I was a child, I spent a lot of time around animals and in the woods"}
{"id": "954833226", "date": "2021-01-08", "guest": "Barry Lopez", "title": "Remembering Nature Writer Barry Lopez", "question_index": 12, "text": "You've talked about the difficulty everybody has of living with any grace. And you live in the woods yourself. And I was wondering if that has made it easier for you to live with that sense of grace.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I would think certainly. I mean, the disabuse of dogma is part of what your whole life is about. You know, I think part of the social function of the writer in - you know, in this country, certain"}
{"id": "954833226", "date": "2021-01-08", "guest": "Barry Lopez", "title": "Remembering Nature Writer Barry Lopez", "question_index": 13, "text": "When you're traveling, for instance, with Eskimos, as you've done a lot over the years, do they ever say to you or convey to you that you think too much...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think so. In fact, I think it's been more troubling for me, really. I - like many writers, I lived in a relatively quiet existence for a long time, and I had an intimacy with the landscape in "}
{"id": "954833226", "date": "2021-01-08", "guest": "Barry Lopez", "title": "Remembering Nature Writer Barry Lopez", "question_index": 14, "text": "...That you're too moody?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. Oh, sure."}
{"id": "954833226", "date": "2021-01-08", "guest": "Barry Lopez", "title": "Remembering Nature Writer Barry Lopez", "question_index": 15, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not that I'm moody. I remember one time this man put his arm around my shoulder, and he says to me, you, you're always thinking."}
{"id": "954833226", "date": "2021-01-08", "guest": "Barry Lopez", "title": "Remembering Nature Writer Barry Lopez", "question_index": 16, "text": "When you're out on a long trip and things are getting very physically uncomfortable - you're very cold, or you don't have enough food or the kind of food that you'd really like, and maybe you were wishing you were actually home - does that discomfort ever distract you from your larger goals, the ideas that you've been telling us about...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it wasn't a compliment. What he was saying to me was, your mind is so actively engaged on a rational and analytic plane that you miss a lot of what is going on because you're too busy thinking abo"}
{"id": "954833226", "date": "2021-01-08", "guest": "Barry Lopez", "title": "Remembering Nature Writer Barry Lopez", "question_index": 17, "text": "...Or are you always able to keep in touch with the larger meaning that you're looking for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes."}
{"id": "954833226", "date": "2021-01-08", "guest": "Barry Lopez", "title": "Remembering Nature Writer Barry Lopez", "question_index": 18, "text": "Barry Lopez, welcome back to FRESH AIR. It's been a really long time. I'm glad for the chance to talk with you again.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, sitting in for Terry Gross. Today, we're remembering writer Barry Lopez, who died last month from prostate cancer. He was 75 years old. Lopez is best known for "}
{"id": "954833226", "date": "2021-01-08", "guest": "Barry Lopez", "title": "Remembering Nature Writer Barry Lopez", "question_index": 19, "text": "I think we agree, you and I, that there's no need to drag you in this interview through a traumatic retelling of the details of what happened to you, so let's not go there. But there are a few things I think we agree our listeners should hear just about the context of what happened to you so we can...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, me, too."}
{"id": "954833226", "date": "2021-01-08", "guest": "Barry Lopez", "title": "Remembering Nature Writer Barry Lopez", "question_index": 20, "text": "...Understand how you were changed by that and how it's affected your understanding of child predators. So, you know, like abusers who are priests or famous - a famous football coach or, you know, people like that, the man who abused you was an authority figure. He was a doctor who ran a sanitarium, who became friends with your mother, who helped her financially. Did that make it more confusing that you were being hurt by somebody who had great respect by the adults - from the adults that you knew?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "954833226", "date": "2021-01-08", "guest": "Barry Lopez", "title": "Remembering Nature Writer Barry Lopez", "question_index": 21, "text": "Say your father had pressed charges on your behalf and that there was a trial and that you had been able to take the witness stand and tell what happened and that your abuser would have been prosecuted and probably convicted. What would that have given you? You can't know for sure because you didn't live it. You can only speculate. But I'm sure it's something you've speculated a lot about in your life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's part of the nightmare of something like this, I think, Terry. Often these figures have worked very hard to create a position in the society of which they're a part where they're perceived"}
{"id": "954833226", "date": "2021-01-08", "guest": "Barry Lopez", "title": "Remembering Nature Writer Barry Lopez", "question_index": 22, "text": "You first started to research the story of Harry Shier, the man who abused you, in 1989.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, your intuition about that is his right. I've basically been silent about this all of my adult life. And one of the things that precipitated my decision to write the story was that - this was bef"}
{"id": "954833226", "date": "2021-01-08", "guest": "Barry Lopez", "title": "Remembering Nature Writer Barry Lopez", "question_index": 23, "text": "That happens to be the year we first - I first interviewed you. One of the things I often think about as an interviewer is everything that I don't know", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "954833226", "date": "2021-01-08", "guest": "Barry Lopez", "title": "Remembering Nature Writer Barry Lopez", "question_index": 24, "text": ". I always think, like, there's so much I don't know about the person I'm interviewing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "954833226", "date": "2021-01-08", "guest": "Barry Lopez", "title": "Remembering Nature Writer Barry Lopez", "question_index": 25, "text": "And even if the interview goes well, there's so much I'm just, like, never going to know.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, of course."}
{"id": "954833226", "date": "2021-01-08", "guest": "Barry Lopez", "title": "Remembering Nature Writer Barry Lopez", "question_index": 26, "text": "I went back, and I listened to that 1989 interview.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "954833226", "date": "2021-01-08", "guest": "Barry Lopez", "title": "Remembering Nature Writer Barry Lopez", "question_index": 27, "text": "Yeah. You said a couple of things that seemed so germane to me in terms of who you are as a writer and what you've investigated in your life as a writer. And I just want to play an excerpt of something. This is actually an excerpt of a reading that you did. So you had just published a collection of essays. And I had - and the essays were about traveling around North America. And I'd asked you to do a reading from an essay called \"Gone Back Into The Earth,\" which you had written after traveling with the musician Paul Winter, who likes to play, for instance, with wolves. He's recorded, like, with wolves. So he's very much, you know, how music connects to the natural world. And so here's a reading from your essay \"Gone Back Into The Earth,\" which is about traveling with Paul Winter to the Grand Canyon. (SOUNDBTIE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, really?"}
{"id": "954833226", "date": "2021-01-08", "guest": "Barry Lopez", "title": "Remembering Nature Writer Barry Lopez", "question_index": 28, "text": "So that was Barry Lopez on FRESH AIR in 1989, reading from an essay written earlier in the '80s. And Barry Lopez, hearing that last night, after having read your essay about being abused - being sexually abused as a child, when you're speaking of the private pain we share with no one and needing to be in a place that is, you know, kind of vast and magnificent and not filled with other people, you know, where there's a sense of, you know, that you can hear the thoughts, but you can, more importantly or first, hear, like, your heartbeat...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) The living of life - any life - involves great and private pain, much of which we share with no one. In such places as the inner gorge, the pain trails away from you. It is not so quiet ther"}
{"id": "954833226", "date": "2021-01-08", "guest": "Barry Lopez", "title": "Remembering Nature Writer Barry Lopez", "question_index": 29, "text": "And so - you know, you said that you wanted to take the darkness that you experienced and turn it inside out. And did writing about the natural world help you do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "955970922", "date": "2021-01-12", "guest": "Adam Jentleson", "title": "'Kill Switch' Examines The Racist History Of The Senate Filibuster", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Congress is trying to return to normal after the insurrection. But what is normal? There are more threats of violence surrounding the inauguration. The norm-breaking that became the norm during the Trump presidency is about to change with the Biden administration. Another change will be the new Democratic majority in the Senate. After newly elected Jon Ossoff and Raphael Warnock are sworn in, the Senate will be evenly divided, 50 Republicans and 50 Democrats. But Vice President Kamala Harris will have the tie-breaking vote. But how much power does that actually give Democrats in the Senate? A majority is not enough to pass legislation anymore and hasn't been for a long time because of the modern use of the filibuster. It takes three-fifths of the Senate to override a filibuster, which means the minority only needs 41 votes to prevent any bill from even coming to a vote. My guest Adam Jentleson says the modern use of the filibuster has crippled American democracy, enabling the minority to systematically block bills favored by the majority. He's the author of the new book, \"Kill Switch,\" about the rise of the modern Senate. He knows the ins and outs of Senate rules because he worked as Harry Reid's deputy chief of staff when Reid was the Democratic leader. Jentleson joined Reid's staff in 2010 and stayed until 2017. \"Kill Switch\" is a history of how the filibuster started as a tool of Southern senators upholding slavery, and then later was used as a tool to block civil rights legislation. The book concludes with Senator Mitch McConnell's advances in the use of filibuster as an obstructionist tool. Jentleson is now public affairs director at Democracy Forward, which was founded in 2017 to fight corruption in the executive branch. We recorded our interview yesterday morning. Adam Jentleson, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "955970922", "date": "2021-01-12", "guest": "Adam Jentleson", "title": "'Kill Switch' Examines The Racist History Of The Senate Filibuster", "question_index": 1, "text": "It's a pleasure to have you. Let's start with the insurrection. Where were you? And what was your reaction as it was happening?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's wonderful to be here."}
{"id": "955970922", "date": "2021-01-12", "guest": "Adam Jentleson", "title": "'Kill Switch' Examines The Racist History Of The Senate Filibuster", "question_index": 2, "text": "Your new book is about how Congress became so polarized. The insurrection was designed to disrupt and punish everyone in Congress voting to certify Joe Biden's win and to prevent him from taking office. What is the larger meaning you take away from the fact that this happened, that this could happen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was actually in Georgetown, which is sort of, you know, in the northern part of Washington, D.C., watching it on television. And what was expected to be sort of a routine - well, not routine, but at"}
{"id": "955970922", "date": "2021-01-12", "guest": "Adam Jentleson", "title": "'Kill Switch' Examines The Racist History Of The Senate Filibuster", "question_index": 3, "text": "What powers do members of Congress have to censure or remove or in any way address the members of Congress who continued to object to the certification of Joe Biden's victory after it was certified time and time again and after lawsuits upheld it? Knowing now what we know, that they encouraged this mob to - you know, and we see what happened. You know, they invaded Congress. They ransacked part of Congress. Some of them were armed. So what power do members of Congress have?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that what's clear is that the party itself, its structures, its leaders and the base voters that it responds to, have morphed into something that is much similar to the type of far-right parti"}
{"id": "955970922", "date": "2021-01-12", "guest": "Adam Jentleson", "title": "'Kill Switch' Examines The Racist History Of The Senate Filibuster", "question_index": 4, "text": "House Democrats are now thinking about legislation that will put limits on the president's pardon powers, mandate the release of a president's tax returns, give new enforcement powers to independent agencies and Congress and more prohibitions against financial conflicts of interest in the White House. What do you think the odds are that legislation like that would pass?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They actually have a lot of power here. The courts have given Congress itself a lot of leeway to determine appropriate action for members that they want to punish. And the types of punishments range f"}
{"id": "955970922", "date": "2021-01-12", "guest": "Adam Jentleson", "title": "'Kill Switch' Examines The Racist History Of The Senate Filibuster", "question_index": 5, "text": "Do you think that there's a chance that, having seen the consequences of extreme rhetoric and extreme views, that the partisan rhetoric, the polarizing will be toned down?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think they're pretty good. You know, these are very narrow majorities we're looking at in both the House and Senate. So you know, a stiff wind in either direction could determine the fate of that le"}
{"id": "955970922", "date": "2021-01-12", "guest": "Adam Jentleson", "title": "'Kill Switch' Examines The Racist History Of The Senate Filibuster", "question_index": 6, "text": "Let's get to your book, \"Kill Switch.\" So much of it is about the history of the filibuster and how it's become an obstructionist tool. So let's start with a basic refresher of how the filibuster works and how it can be used and has been used as an obstructionist tool.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd really love to say yes. But I have trouble looking at the events of the last four to five years and being confident in saying yes. I think that the pattern we've seen from the day that Trump enter"}
{"id": "955970922", "date": "2021-01-12", "guest": "Adam Jentleson", "title": "'Kill Switch' Examines The Racist History Of The Senate Filibuster", "question_index": 7, "text": "Why can just one person hold it up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. So in the modern Senate, the way the filibuster works is it's essentially silent but deadly. I think the common perception of what it looks like continues to be aligned with Jimmy Stewart in \"Mr"}
{"id": "955970922", "date": "2021-01-12", "guest": "Adam Jentleson", "title": "'Kill Switch' Examines The Racist History Of The Senate Filibuster", "question_index": 8, "text": "So if one senator objects, it's basically understood to be a silent filibuster, kicking in the requirement for a three-fifths majority.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the Senate is designed to give an enormous amount of deference to every individual senator. This is - seems a bit outdated right now because so much power has become invested in the partisan lea"}
{"id": "955970922", "date": "2021-01-12", "guest": "Adam Jentleson", "title": "'Kill Switch' Examines The Racist History Of The Senate Filibuster", "question_index": 9, "text": "So in addition to blocking legislation, what else can the filibuster block?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's exactly right. You know, they can go to the floor and give a speech if they want to. And sometimes they do, you know, to be performative or to try to drive a message. But they don't have to. An"}
{"id": "955970922", "date": "2021-01-12", "guest": "Adam Jentleson", "title": "'Kill Switch' Examines The Racist History Of The Senate Filibuster", "question_index": 10, "text": "So when Republicans were in power, they made it easier for them to confirm their nominees...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It can take up time is what it can do. Every single time the filibuster applies, you're adding about a week of floor time on to the calendar. And when you stack filibusters up one against another with"}
{"id": "955970922", "date": "2021-01-12", "guest": "Adam Jentleson", "title": "'Kill Switch' Examines The Racist History Of The Senate Filibuster", "question_index": 11, "text": "...After blocking Merrick Garland.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "955970922", "date": "2021-01-12", "guest": "Adam Jentleson", "title": "'Kill Switch' Examines The Racist History Of The Senate Filibuster", "question_index": 12, "text": "So give us an example of how you saw the filibuster used during the Obama administration, when you were working for Harry Reid and he was the majority leader.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. That's right."}
{"id": "955970922", "date": "2021-01-12", "guest": "Adam Jentleson", "title": "'Kill Switch' Examines The Racist History Of The Senate Filibuster", "question_index": 13, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Adam Jentleson, author of the new book \"Kill Switch: The Rise Of The Modern Senate And The Crippling Of American Democracy.\" Jentleson worked as Senator Harry Reid's deputy chief of staff when Reid was the Democratic leader in the Senate. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the example that sticks with me is the use of the filibuster to block a bipartisan background checks legislation after the massacre of first-graders in Newtown, Conn. And I still think I have not g"}
{"id": "955970922", "date": "2021-01-12", "guest": "Adam Jentleson", "title": "'Kill Switch' Examines The Racist History Of The Senate Filibuster", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Adam Jentleson, author of the new book \"Kill Switch: The Rise Of The Modern Senate And The Crippling Of American Democracy.\" It's about how the Senate became as polarized as it is today and how the filibuster became a tool enabling the minority to systematically block the majority. He writes about the filibuster's roots in Southern senators upholding slavery and later in blocking civil rights legislation. The filibuster was not part of the Founding Fathers' plan. They wanted simple majorities to pass legislation. How was the filibuster initiated and why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the example that sticks with me is the use of the filibuster to block a bipartisan background checks legislation after the massacre of first-graders in Newtown, Conn. And I still think I have not g"}
{"id": "955970922", "date": "2021-01-12", "guest": "Adam Jentleson", "title": "'Kill Switch' Examines The Racist History Of The Senate Filibuster", "question_index": 15, "text": "So you describe John Calhoun as, like, basically, the father of the filibuster. Let's be clear who he was. I mean, he not only wanted to protect slave owners, he argued that slavery created racial harmony and improved the lives of slaves. You quote him in the book. He said, never before has the Black race of Central Africa, from the dawn of history to the present day, attained a condition so civilized and improved, not only physically, but morally and intellectually. Amazing that he could justify that slavery was improving the lives of enslaved people.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Slowly, over the course of time, but primarily to serve the interests of slave states and try to preserve slavery against the march of progress and a growing majority of both states and Americans who "}
{"id": "955970922", "date": "2021-01-12", "guest": "Adam Jentleson", "title": "'Kill Switch' Examines The Racist History Of The Senate Filibuster", "question_index": 16, "text": "Let's take a break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Adam Jentleson, author of the new book \"Kill Switch: The Rise Of The Modern Senate And The Crippling Of American Democracy.\" He worked on Harry Reid's staff from 2010 to 2017, first as communications director, then his deputy chief of staff. We'll be right back after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. And it's important to note at this time, you know - not to give people of that era too much credit for being enlightened. But, you know, there was a shift in public opinion going on rega"}
{"id": "955970922", "date": "2021-01-12", "guest": "Adam Jentleson", "title": "'Kill Switch' Examines The Racist History Of The Senate Filibuster", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Adam Jentleson, author of the new book \"Kill Switch: The Rise Of The Modern Senate And The Crippling Of American Democracy.\" It's about how the Senate became the polarized institution it is today and how the filibuster became a tool of the minority to systematically block the majority in the Senate. Jentleson worked as the deputy chief of staff for Democratic Senator Harry Reid when Reid was the Democratic leader in the Senate. We recorded our interview yesterday. So we've established that needing a supermajority to pass legislation was not what the founders wanted. They wanted simple majorities. You've talked about how the filibuster was initiated in the mid-19th century and the ways it was used to enable slave owners and to keep the institution of slavery. But you write that the only time the filibuster was used during Jim Crow with any consistency was to block any form of civil rights legislation and that this happened through the 1960s. So give us an example of that - like, of the systematic use of the filibuster to block civil rights legislation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. And it's important to note at this time, you know - not to give people of that era too much credit for being enlightened. But, you know, there was a shift in public opinion going on rega"}
{"id": "955970922", "date": "2021-01-12", "guest": "Adam Jentleson", "title": "'Kill Switch' Examines The Racist History Of The Senate Filibuster", "question_index": 18, "text": "So the senator who was blocking the civil rights bill and leading the filibuster was Senator Richard Russell of Georgia. He had been LBJ's mentor, but LBJ had become more progressive in his views and turned against Russell and defeated Russell's filibuster. Richard Russell, that Southern senator who led the filibuster against the civil rights bill, that is the Russell that the Russell Office Building, where many senators have their office, is named after. I'm wondering if there's any kind of movement to change the name of that building.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So what Southern senators faced starting in the 1920s was majority support for civil rights bills. These were rudimentary civil rights bills. These were anti-lynching bills and anti-poll tax bills, bu"}
{"id": "955970922", "date": "2021-01-12", "guest": "Adam Jentleson", "title": "'Kill Switch' Examines The Racist History Of The Senate Filibuster", "question_index": 19, "text": "So you say McConnell did not want the Russell Building named after John McCain. Why not? And how did he block that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wish there was. There have been murmurings, but so far, not a real organized movement. And I just want to underscore how disturbing this is. And I think it points to the sort of self-mythologizing t"}
{"id": "955970922", "date": "2021-01-12", "guest": "Adam Jentleson", "title": "'Kill Switch' Examines The Racist History Of The Senate Filibuster", "question_index": 20, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Adam Jentleson, author of the new book \"Kill Switch: The Rise Of The Modern Senate And The Crippling Of American Democracy.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So this is interesting and something I get into in the book. There was actually a decades-long rivalry between Senator McCain and Senator McConnell that revolved around McCain's advocacy for campaign "}
{"id": "955970922", "date": "2021-01-12", "guest": "Adam Jentleson", "title": "'Kill Switch' Examines The Racist History Of The Senate Filibuster", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Adam Jentleson, author of the new book \"Kill Switch: The Rise Of The Modern Senate And The Crippling Of American Democracy.\" It's about how the Senate became as polarized as it is today and how the filibuster became a tool enabling the minority to systematically block the majority. He writes about the filibuster's roots in Southern senators upholding slavery and later in blocking civil rights legislation. Who is the innovator of making that supermajority routine, enabling the minority to block any legislation it wants to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So this is interesting and something I get into in the book. There was actually a decades-long rivalry between Senator McCain and Senator McConnell that revolved around McCain's advocacy for campaign "}
{"id": "955970922", "date": "2021-01-12", "guest": "Adam Jentleson", "title": "'Kill Switch' Examines The Racist History Of The Senate Filibuster", "question_index": 22, "text": "The Senate is now going to be split 50-50, with Kamala Harris as vice president having the ability to break the tie if there is a tie. So it's not enough to pass the threshold of filibuster and cloture. So what does this narrow margin get the Democrats in the Senate?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "More than any other single senator, Mitch McConnell is responsible for the overuse of the filibuster. This is simply a fact. It was - it came into frequent use. And I don't want to downplay the role t"}
{"id": "955970922", "date": "2021-01-12", "guest": "Adam Jentleson", "title": "'Kill Switch' Examines The Racist History Of The Senate Filibuster", "question_index": 23, "text": "Are we about to see a strategic war between Mitch McConnell and Chuck Schumer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, a majority, even the slimmest majority possible, gives you a ton of power in the Senate. It puts you in control of all the committees. It doesn't matter if your majority is one seat or even hing"}
{"id": "955970922", "date": "2021-01-12", "guest": "Adam Jentleson", "title": "'Kill Switch' Examines The Racist History Of The Senate Filibuster", "question_index": 24, "text": "Every Senate has the right to make its own rules. But what does it take to pass those rules? Do you need a supermajority?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think we are. And I think that what happens is going to have massive and very important ramifications not just for the Senate as an institution but for the everyday lives of American people. My pers"}
{"id": "955970922", "date": "2021-01-12", "guest": "Adam Jentleson", "title": "'Kill Switch' Examines The Racist History Of The Senate Filibuster", "question_index": 25, "text": "What's held the rules back from being reformed in the past is that when Democrats are in the majority and they have a chance to reform the rules - and ditto for Republicans. When they're in the majority and have the chance to reform their rules, they're afraid of how it will be used against them the next time they're in the minority.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You need a simple - you only need a simple majority to change the rules. This has evolved as a precedent starting in the 1970s but has really been set in concrete first by Reid when he deployed the nu"}
{"id": "955970922", "date": "2021-01-12", "guest": "Adam Jentleson", "title": "'Kill Switch' Examines The Racist History Of The Senate Filibuster", "question_index": 26, "text": "You've written that you think whatever Biden accomplishes is basically going to have to be through executive action. Do you think that's true even if the threshold to override a filibuster is lowered from three-fifths to something else?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, and that's a legitimate fear. And I don't want to downplay it. But the simple fact of the matter is that the ability of the minority to block the majority from taking action benefits conservative"}
{"id": "955970922", "date": "2021-01-12", "guest": "Adam Jentleson", "title": "'Kill Switch' Examines The Racist History Of The Senate Filibuster", "question_index": 27, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Adam Jentleson, author of the new book \"Kill Switch: The Rise Of The Modern Senate And The Crippling Of American Democracy.\" We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think lowering the threshold opens up a world of possibilities. I think that it's still going to be difficult. You know, getting to 50, 51 votes requires securing the votes of Democratic senators li"}
{"id": "955970922", "date": "2021-01-12", "guest": "Adam Jentleson", "title": "'Kill Switch' Examines The Racist History Of The Senate Filibuster", "question_index": 28, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Adam Jentleson, author of the new book \"Kill Switch: The Rise Of The Modern Senate And The Crippling Of American Democracy.\" It's about how the Senate became as polarized as it is today and how the filibuster became a tool enabling the minority to systematically block the majority. Jentleson worked for Harry Reid when Harry Reid was the Democratic leader of the Senate. And the positions he held with Harry Reid were communications director and deputy chief of staff. What reforms would you like to see in the Senate to make it less polarized and to end some of the gridlock?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think lowering the threshold opens up a world of possibilities. I think that it's still going to be difficult. You know, getting to 50, 51 votes requires securing the votes of Democratic senators li"}
{"id": "955970922", "date": "2021-01-12", "guest": "Adam Jentleson", "title": "'Kill Switch' Examines The Racist History Of The Senate Filibuster", "question_index": 29, "text": "You're a Democrat. And you're saying that now that Democrats will be in power in the Senate. Would you be saying that if Mitch McConnell was the majority leader?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think reforms need to be very clear-eyed about the larger context in which the Senate is operating. We're not going to fix our polarized country with Senate reform. We're not going to fix forces of "}
{"id": "955970922", "date": "2021-01-12", "guest": "Adam Jentleson", "title": "'Kill Switch' Examines The Racist History Of The Senate Filibuster", "question_index": 30, "text": "So Joe Biden was a senator for years before becoming vice president. Mitch McConnell has been in the Senate a long time. How did they get along before the Obama presidency, before Biden became vice president?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I would. And I can say that because I started writing this book when Mitch McConnell was the majority leader. And so I think that there's no question that Republicans will use this power when th"}
{"id": "955970922", "date": "2021-01-12", "guest": "Adam Jentleson", "title": "'Kill Switch' Examines The Racist History Of The Senate Filibuster", "question_index": 31, "text": "One of the things that President Trump was able to do is roll back a lot of regulations, including in the Environmental Protection Agency, through executive action. When Biden becomes president, can he reinstate regulations through executive action? Or can you only roll them back through executive action?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would describe their relationship as professional, but not much more than that. I mean, Senator McConnell is sort of a business-only type senator. He doesn't have a lot of friends even within his ow"}
{"id": "955970922", "date": "2021-01-12", "guest": "Adam Jentleson", "title": "'Kill Switch' Examines The Racist History Of The Senate Filibuster", "question_index": 32, "text": "If Washington, D.C. became a state, it would have two senators representing it in Congress. That has the potential of being somewhat of a game changer. What would it take for D.C. to get recognized as a state?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He can reinstate some of them. There are important things you can do through executive action on environmental regulations. You can also roll back the rollbacks in a lot of cases. So I think it's fair"}
{"id": "955970922", "date": "2021-01-12", "guest": "Adam Jentleson", "title": "'Kill Switch' Examines The Racist History Of The Senate Filibuster", "question_index": 33, "text": "What power would D.C. have had that it didn't have during the insurrection?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it will pass the House. And so it's simply a matter of securing 51 votes in the Senate if the Senate chooses to lower the threshold. It will never get 60 votes. I think that's simply a f"}
{"id": "955970922", "date": "2021-01-12", "guest": "Adam Jentleson", "title": "'Kill Switch' Examines The Racist History Of The Senate Filibuster", "question_index": 34, "text": "Finally, President Trump will be out of office in days. No matter what route he takes to leave office, certainly by Inauguration Day, he will leave office. How much Trumpism do you think will be left in the Republican Party when Trump is no longer president?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Governors are able to call up the National Guard, and D.C.'s mayor was unable to do that. It had to rely on Maryland and Virginia to send help. And I think that the response could have been quicker if"}
{"id": "955970922", "date": "2021-01-12", "guest": "Adam Jentleson", "title": "'Kill Switch' Examines The Racist History Of The Senate Filibuster", "question_index": 35, "text": "Adam Jentleson, I want to thank you so much for talking with us today. I really learned a lot from your book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have a pretty bearish view on this. I unfortunately think that Trumpism is here to stay and reflects the modern Republican Party. I think that Republican voters have stuck with Trump north of 80, 90"}
{"id": "955970922", "date": "2021-01-12", "guest": "Adam Jentleson", "title": "'Kill Switch' Examines The Racist History Of The Senate Filibuster", "question_index": 36, "text": "Adam Jentleson is the author of the new book \"Kill Switch: The Rise Of the Modern Senate And The Crippling Of American Democracy.\" We recorded our interview yesterday morning. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, historian Kerri Greenidge, author of \"Black Radical,\" will tell the story of William Morris (ph) Trotter, an African American newspaper editor who led mass protests for civil rights in the 20th century. Trotter gained a national following and challenged leaders like Booker T. Washington, who took a more cautious approach to Black empowerment. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was so great to be here, Terry. Thank you."}
{"id": "955970922", "date": "2021-01-12", "guest": "Adam Jentleson", "title": "'Kill Switch' Examines The Racist History Of The Senate Filibuster", "question_index": 37, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our senior producer today is Roberta Shorrock. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, and Kayla Lattimore. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Seth Kelley directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was so great to be here, Terry. Thank you."}
{"id": "956790114", "date": "2021-01-14", "guest": "Tom Hanks", "title": "'News Of The World' Filmmaker Wanted To Explore The 'Healing Power Of Storytelling'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. I just watched a new movie that both transported me away from this time of COVID and insurrection, yet seemed relevant to both. It's set in Texas in 1870, five years after the Civil War has ended, when many Texans are bitter about defeat and reluctant to rejoin the Union, which would require agreeing to the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments, which includes the abolition of slavery. One of the first images we see in the film is of a Black man hanging from a tree. White settlers are fighting Native Americans. Everyone is hurting. The film is a Western called \"News Of The World.\" It stars Tom Hanks. My guest is the director, Paul Greengrass, who previously directed Hanks in the film \"Captain Phillips.\" In \"News Of The World,\" Hanks plays a former Confederate captain, Jefferson Kyle Kidd, who fought in the Texas infantry during the Civil War and surrendered in 1865. The film is set five years later, when Kidd is a lonely man with unspoken regrets, eking out a living, traveling from one small, poor Texas town and muddy settlement to another, reading aloud the news from newspapers around the country as a form of information and entertainment to gatherings of people, charging 10 cents a person.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "956790114", "date": "2021-01-14", "guest": "Tom Hanks", "title": "'News Of The World' Filmmaker Wanted To Explore The 'Healing Power Of Storytelling'", "question_index": 1, "text": "The director of \"News Of The World,\" Paul Greengrass, started his career as a journalist and documentary filmmaker. He went on to make films based on real events, including terrorist attacks. \"Captain Phillips\" was based on the American cargo ship hijacked by Somali pirates in 2009. \"22 July\" was about the terrorist attack in Norway in 2011 by a far-right extremist. \"United 93\" was about the airplane passengers who fought back against the hijackers on 9/11 and died, crashing near Shanksville, Pa. Greengrass also directed three of the blockbuster Jason Bourne movies. \"News Of The World\" is in theaters now and will be available on premium video on demand starting tomorrow. Paul Greengrass, welcome to FRESH AIR. And thank you for making this new movie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Captain Kidd) Starting local, then - our own Houston Telegraph from the 1 of February, this news. The meningitis epidemic continues to spread without prejudice across the panhandle and north Texas"}
{"id": "956790114", "date": "2021-01-14", "guest": "Tom Hanks", "title": "'News Of The World' Filmmaker Wanted To Explore The 'Healing Power Of Storytelling'", "question_index": 2, "text": "So although this movie is set in 1870, it's feeling so current to me, like I said. You know, America still hasn't reckoned with the ongoing racism and racial injustice resulting from slavery, and we haven't fully recovered from the divisions of the Civil War. I mean, one of the images of the insurrection is a man inside the Capitol building holding a very large Confederate flag on a long pole. And of course, one of the first things we see in your film is a Black man hanging from a tree with a sign attached to him reading, Texas says no, this is white man's country. Did the movie feel current to you when you were making it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my pleasure. Good to be here."}
{"id": "956790114", "date": "2021-01-14", "guest": "Tom Hanks", "title": "'News Of The World' Filmmaker Wanted To Explore The 'Healing Power Of Storytelling'", "question_index": 3, "text": "A central part of the plot is that the man who he sees hanging from a tree at the beginning of the movie, he was transporting a 10-year-old girl to her aunt and uncle. The girl had been kidnapped six years earlier, kidnapped and raised by Kiowa Indians after they killed her parents. And now her Kiowa family has been killed by white people, so she has been twice orphaned. And the Black man who we see hanging from a tree, he was tasked with taking her to her only remaining white family and aunt and uncle. So now with that man dead, she has nothing and no means of getting anywhere on her own. Hanks finds her, the captain finds her, and reluctantly takes on the responsibility of taking her, Johanna, to her aunt and uncle. It's a pretty long and dangerous journey, and a lot happens to them along the way. And it's hard for him to communicate with her because she only speaks Kiowa, and she identifies as a member of the Kiowa. Did you read a lot of history about that period?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It did. I felt when I read the novel that it's based on - Paulette Jiles' wonderful novel \"News Of The World\" - that there was something about Texas in 1870 in the shadow of the Civil War, America bit"}
{"id": "956790114", "date": "2021-01-14", "guest": "Tom Hanks", "title": "'News Of The World' Filmmaker Wanted To Explore The 'Healing Power Of Storytelling'", "question_index": 4, "text": "So were there newsreaders like the character Tom Hanks plays, who actually were itinerant and read the news from town to town for people who didn't have access to newspapers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. I did. There's quite an extensive literature, actually, for these children who were kidnapped. It wasn't that unusual. And they were lost children, of course. But, you know, part of a wider lan"}
{"id": "956790114", "date": "2021-01-14", "guest": "Tom Hanks", "title": "'News Of The World' Filmmaker Wanted To Explore The 'Healing Power Of Storytelling'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Oh, good point.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think, yes. Of course, many people were illiterate in those days, weren't they? I mean, I think..."}
{"id": "956790114", "date": "2021-01-14", "guest": "Tom Hanks", "title": "'News Of The World' Filmmaker Wanted To Explore The 'Healing Power Of Storytelling'", "question_index": 6, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Paul Greengrass, the director of the new film \"News Of The World,\" starring Tom Hanks. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The newsreaders, really, have a gospel route. In my country, they would have been the Methodist preachers, the nonconformist preachers who weren't allowed to preach in the churches but went out into t"}
{"id": "956790114", "date": "2021-01-14", "guest": "Tom Hanks", "title": "'News Of The World' Filmmaker Wanted To Explore The 'Healing Power Of Storytelling'", "question_index": 7, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded Tuesday with film director Paul Greengrass. His new film \"News Of The World\" stars Tom Hanks. It's a Western set in Texas in 1870, five years after the end of the Civil War. Greengrass got his start as a journalist and documentary filmmaker and went on to make films based on real events, including terrorist attacks. His films include \"Captain Phillips\" and \"United 93.\" He also directed three Jason Bourne films. You've studied the work of John Ford, who did a lot of Westerns, including \"The Searchers\" and \"My Darling Clementine,\" \"She Wore A Yellow Ribbon,\" \"The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance.\" You not only studied his work; you talked about him in the documentary series \"Five Came Back,\" which is adapted from a book by the same name. And it was about five directors, including Ford, who during World War II basically joined the military and did documentary films about battles as they were happening. For Ford, that included the Battle of Midway and D-Day. Like, he was there shooting footage from D-Day. And when you were looking at those films that he shot during the war, could you imagine yourself doing that? I mean, you talk about how in the Battle of Midway, when the Japanese are attacking Midway Island from the air, that John Ford was standing on basically a pedestal, directing things so he could have a good vision of what was happening. And as you point out, if during an air war, you're standing in an elevated area, you are a target. Could you imagine doing that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The newsreaders, really, have a gospel route. In my country, they would have been the Methodist preachers, the nonconformist preachers who weren't allowed to preach in the churches but went out into t"}
{"id": "956790114", "date": "2021-01-14", "guest": "Tom Hanks", "title": "'News Of The World' Filmmaker Wanted To Explore The 'Healing Power Of Storytelling'", "question_index": 8, "text": "You say it shaped your aesthetic. Can you talk a little bit more about how it shaped your aesthetic? And I mean that in two ways. You know, in \"Five Came Back,\" you talk about how the war footage that John Ford shot, you can see the film, like, moving out of the sprockets because of all of the impact of the bombs. And you see the camera shaking. Some of the footage looks like it's singed from all the bombs exploding. Just on a film level, he kept that. You know, he - I think he wanted you to see, like, this is an example of even the damage it's doing to the film.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't think I could imagine being in the Battle of Midway. But, you know, when I was a young man, when I was in my 20s, that was my job. I mean, I went to conflict zones, many of them - Middle"}
{"id": "956790114", "date": "2021-01-14", "guest": "Tom Hanks", "title": "'News Of The World' Filmmaker Wanted To Explore The 'Healing Power Of Storytelling'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Now, you've shot films based on real-life events, like the United Flight 93 on 9/11 that crashed because the passengers were taking over the plane from the hostage-takers, and they prevented the plane from crashing into its intended target. You know, you did a film based on the Somali pirates who took over, you know, a cargo ship. And then you've also done these, like, big, like, Jason Bourne movies, which are not exactly cinema verite", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The struggle to create and capture the image, the drama of the experience of the Battle of Midway. That's at the heart of it, and it's at the heart of all news reportage when you get down to it. What "}
{"id": "956790114", "date": "2021-01-14", "guest": "Tom Hanks", "title": "'News Of The World' Filmmaker Wanted To Explore The 'Healing Power Of Storytelling'", "question_index": 10, "text": ". They're not exactly like documentary. They're action films. And then in the new movie, \"News Of The World,\" the longest, like, action sequence in it is - it's a shootout between Tom Hanks and three kind of twisted, lost souls who want to basically buy the young girl from Tom Hanks and probably sell her into sexual servitude. But that scene, it's just like a really lo-fi shootout, you know, with Tom Hanks trying to hide behind rocks and use whatever he can as bullets to shoot at these three guys. Can you talk a little bit about, like, the different kinds of action sequences that you've shot, after shooting real combat?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The struggle to create and capture the image, the drama of the experience of the Battle of Midway. That's at the heart of it, and it's at the heart of all news reportage when you get down to it. What "}
{"id": "956790114", "date": "2021-01-14", "guest": "Tom Hanks", "title": "'News Of The World' Filmmaker Wanted To Explore The 'Healing Power Of Storytelling'", "question_index": 11, "text": "You know, I'm wondering, having been in so many conflict zones and shot documentaries there and now watching news footage from your home in England, news footage of an insurrection in the United States - in the United States - what is it like for you to watch that, to know that, you know, it's not an emerging democracy, it's not a country where there has been just a super long history of authoritarian governments and dictatorships - it's the United States?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you have to go back to my roots, as - you know, in Britain, there wasn't - there isn't - wasn't then, anyway, certainly, a film industry. There was the television industry. That's where you went"}
{"id": "956790114", "date": "2021-01-14", "guest": "Tom Hanks", "title": "'News Of The World' Filmmaker Wanted To Explore The 'Healing Power Of Storytelling'", "question_index": 12, "text": "So you had to study, like, who he was and, you know, what he believed, what the manifesto was. What are some of the things that you started to believe about how somebody comes to believe lies, how somebody comes to believe that certain people are less than human, that certain people are worthy of being killed and how, like, the truth, reality, is incapable of talking them out of it? Because that question is so relevant to right now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I first came to the United States when I was 18 years old. And it's not my home country. I'm British. But it's a place I love, as I think many people who are not Americans do, you know. It's the"}
{"id": "956790114", "date": "2021-01-14", "guest": "Tom Hanks", "title": "'News Of The World' Filmmaker Wanted To Explore The 'Healing Power Of Storytelling'", "question_index": 13, "text": "My guest is director Paul Greengrass, his new film \"News Of The World\" stars Tom Hanks. It's now in theaters and will be available on premium video on demand starting tomorrow. We'll talk more after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think Anders Breivik is a dreadful - dreadful - contemptible human being guilty of the most heinous acts. That said, you mustn't ever misunderstand these people. It was not that they thought - that "}
{"id": "956790114", "date": "2021-01-14", "guest": "Tom Hanks", "title": "'News Of The World' Filmmaker Wanted To Explore The 'Healing Power Of Storytelling'", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded Tuesday with Paul Greengrass, who directed the new film \"News Of The World,\" starring Tom Hanks. It will be available on premium video on demand starting tomorrow. Greengrass started his career as a journalist and documentary filmmaker and went on to direct theatrical films based on real events. \"Captain Phillips,\" which also starred Tom Hanks, was based on the American cargo ship hijacked by Somali pirates in 2009. \"22 July\" was about a 2011 terrorist attack by a far-right extremist in Norway. And \"United 93\" was about the airplane passengers who fought back against the hijackers on 9/11 and died crashing near Shanksville, Pa. Greengrass has also directed three of the blockbuster Jason Bourne movies. I want to get back to Anders Breivik because you did a dramatized version of him in your film \"22 July.\" And he's the neo-Nazi, you know, terrorist who attacked people in Norway and had a manifesto that a lot of people on the far right have subsequently followed. I am sometimes surprised that people who are neo-Nazis, white racists, that they're - I mean, they're proud of it. They believe - I mean, that really - this is how they think the world should be. And they don't mind people knowing that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think Anders Breivik is a dreadful - dreadful - contemptible human being guilty of the most heinous acts. That said, you mustn't ever misunderstand these people. It was not that they thought - that "}
{"id": "956790114", "date": "2021-01-14", "guest": "Tom Hanks", "title": "'News Of The World' Filmmaker Wanted To Explore The 'Healing Power Of Storytelling'", "question_index": 15, "text": "That's interesting. How did it feel to make a film with a happy ending?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the reason I made that film, \"22 July,\" was because it was not about Breivik. I mean, he was a central, important character in it. The film was about Norway, as an exemplar, of how a democratic "}
{"id": "956790114", "date": "2021-01-14", "guest": "Tom Hanks", "title": "'News Of The World' Filmmaker Wanted To Explore The 'Healing Power Of Storytelling'", "question_index": 16, "text": "What was your eureka moment when you decided to make the movie about - \"United 93\" - Flight 93 on 9/11, where the passengers fought back against the hijackers. But everybody on that plane died as a result because the plane crashed in Pennsylvania. I'm going to be really honest with you. I made a decision not to see that movie because, I thought, I know how the story turns out. I've read about it. I don't want to experience the horror of being on that plane. I'm going to spare myself from that. So what was your eureka moment in thinking, like, I want to reenact that in a movie?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that was something that I had decided after I'd done \"22 July,\" you know? I said, I want to make a film that has a happy ending. I want to - you know, not a schmaltzy, sentimental film because I"}
{"id": "956790114", "date": "2021-01-14", "guest": "Tom Hanks", "title": "'News Of The World' Filmmaker Wanted To Explore The 'Healing Power Of Storytelling'", "question_index": 17, "text": "I don't doubt it. So you can tell us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's difficult if you haven't seen the movie to sort of - I mean, I think it's about a lot more than that, if I can put it that way."}
{"id": "956790114", "date": "2021-01-14", "guest": "Tom Hanks", "title": "'News Of The World' Filmmaker Wanted To Explore The 'Healing Power Of Storytelling'", "question_index": 18, "text": "My guest is director Paul Greengrass. His new film, \"News Of The World,\" stars Tom Hanks. We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The first thing we did was go and see all the families and ask them what their feelings were. And they were very supportive - many, many different types of people with different opinions. Why? You see"}
{"id": "956790114", "date": "2021-01-14", "guest": "Tom Hanks", "title": "'News Of The World' Filmmaker Wanted To Explore The 'Healing Power Of Storytelling'", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with director Paul Greengrass. He started as a documentary filmmaker, shooting in wars and conflict zones. He's made several theatrical films based on real events, including terrorist attacks. His films include \"United 93\" and \"Captain Phillips.\" His movie \"22 July\" was based on the terrorist attack in Norway by the far-right extremist Anders Breivik. Greengrass also made three Jason Bourne movies. His new movie, \"News Of The World,\" stars Tom Hanks. It's a Western set five years after the Civil War. So you know, you talked about how you wanted to make a movie with a happy ending, which you don't typically do, but you did with your new movie, \"News Of The World.\" So after making many movies that are reenactments of really tragic events, terrorist events, now you've made a movie where there's a lot of trouble. Everyone is broken. But there is, by its standards, you know, a happy ending. What do you want to do next? Do you want to pursue something else that ends with some happiness, with characters being better off than they were when they started?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The first thing we did was go and see all the families and ask them what their feelings were. And they were very supportive - many, many different types of people with different opinions. Why? You see"}
{"id": "956790114", "date": "2021-01-14", "guest": "Tom Hanks", "title": "'News Of The World' Filmmaker Wanted To Explore The 'Healing Power Of Storytelling'", "question_index": 20, "text": "On a lighter note, how did you like working with horses?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I honestly don't know. I enormously enjoyed making this film. It was a dream come true, actually, honestly and truly. You know, to make a Western, you know, you stand out in the desert. You know, you "}
{"id": "956790114", "date": "2021-01-14", "guest": "Tom Hanks", "title": "'News Of The World' Filmmaker Wanted To Explore The 'Healing Power Of Storytelling'", "question_index": 21, "text": "You know, just a sidebar note - I don't think I've ever seen Tom Hanks in a Western before, except for \"Toy Story,\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Loved it. I used to ride a little bit when I was young, but not now. But Tom was really good on a horse. He was fantastic. But it was - it was thrilling, just what I mean (ph). You know, you go out in"}
{"id": "956790114", "date": "2021-01-14", "guest": "Tom Hanks", "title": "'News Of The World' Filmmaker Wanted To Explore The 'Healing Power Of Storytelling'", "question_index": 22, "text": "where it's not a Western, but he is, you know - he is a toy wooden cowboy in it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Loved it. I used to ride a little bit when I was young, but not now. But Tom was really good on a horse. He was fantastic. But it was - it was thrilling, just what I mean (ph). You know, you go out in"}
{"id": "956790114", "date": "2021-01-14", "guest": "Tom Hanks", "title": "'News Of The World' Filmmaker Wanted To Explore The 'Healing Power Of Storytelling'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Yes, his face is dirty most of the time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he's the real deal in this. And I thought he sat well in that landscape. You know, he looked the part to me. And I love Tom when he's weathered and..."}
{"id": "956790114", "date": "2021-01-14", "guest": "Tom Hanks", "title": "'News Of The World' Filmmaker Wanted To Explore The 'Healing Power Of Storytelling'", "question_index": 24, "text": "I want to thank you so much for talking with us. And thank you for making \"News Of The World,\" which I enjoyed so much. Paul Greengrass, it's really been a pleasure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And has years and has experience behind his eyes - he's seen things; he's done things. It's a haunted quality to him, and it seems such an obvious thing to say. But I think we must take him for grante"}
{"id": "956790114", "date": "2021-01-14", "guest": "Tom Hanks", "title": "'News Of The World' Filmmaker Wanted To Explore The 'Healing Power Of Storytelling'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Paul Greengrass directed the new film \"News Of The World\" starring Tom Hanks. It's currently playing in theaters and will be available on premium video on demand starting tomorrow. We recorded our interview Tuesday. After we take a short break, Ken Tucker will review an HBO documentary about the Bee Gees and a new album by Barry Gibb, the only one of the three Bee Gee brothers still alive. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks a lot."}
{"id": "956820352", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Michael Apted", "title": "Remembering Michael Apted, Creator Of The 'Up' Documentary Series", "question_index": 0, "text": "Michael Apted, welcome and thank you for joining us. Let me go back to the very beginning. When \"Seven Up!\" was first made, you were the researcher for the series.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. Michael Apted, the film director best known for a series of documentaries depicting the lives of a group of British citizens roughly once every "}
{"id": "956820352", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Michael Apted", "title": "Remembering Michael Apted, Creator Of The 'Up' Documentary Series", "question_index": 1, "text": "You weren't yet the director, which you became. So one of the things you had to do was choose the children. How did you go about choosing them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "956820352", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Michael Apted", "title": "Remembering Michael Apted, Creator Of The 'Up' Documentary Series", "question_index": 2, "text": "So what was it like for you? What's it been like for you every seven years to drop in on these people's lives and, you know, ask them about the landmark events that have happened in the seven-year interim?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was pretty arbitrary and very quick. It was part of a weekly series of programs, World in Action. I would ring the schools up. The schools - I said, would you help us make this film? And they"}
{"id": "956820352", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Michael Apted", "title": "Remembering Michael Apted, Creator Of The 'Up' Documentary Series", "question_index": 3, "text": "Nick, I'm sure you've seen \"56 Up\" once or more times", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The best answer would be to say that I don't answer questions like that. But - you know, it was what I said when I was 7, and it's still the most sensible - but, I mean, what about them?"}
{"id": "956820352", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Michael Apted", "title": "Remembering Michael Apted, Creator Of The 'Up' Documentary Series", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The best answer would be to say that I don't answer questions like that. But - you know, it was what I said when I was 7, and it's still the most sensible - but, I mean, what about them?"}
{"id": "956820352", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Michael Apted", "title": "Remembering Michael Apted, Creator Of The 'Up' Documentary Series", "question_index": 5, "text": "Excuse me. You haven't?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I haven't."}
{"id": "956820352", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Michael Apted", "title": "Remembering Michael Apted, Creator Of The 'Up' Documentary Series", "question_index": 6, "text": "Really? That's a statement. Why not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I haven't."}
{"id": "956820352", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Michael Apted", "title": "Remembering Michael Apted, Creator Of The 'Up' Documentary Series", "question_index": 7, "text": "Because?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it's - I mean, I think this is a wonderful project, but it's a profoundly uncomfortable thing for me. I don't willingly watch myself."}
{"id": "956820352", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Michael Apted", "title": "Remembering Michael Apted, Creator Of The 'Up' Documentary Series", "question_index": 8, "text": "Is it uncomfortable because you just don't like watching and hearing yourself? Or is it uncomfortable because you don't want to see your life played out in front of the camera in seven-year increments?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It feels so very, very uncomfortable."}
{"id": "956820352", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Michael Apted", "title": "Remembering Michael Apted, Creator Of The 'Up' Documentary Series", "question_index": 9, "text": "Has your level of discomfort changed over the years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And if I say that I'm uncomfortable with this, it doesn't mean that I don't like the project, and it doesn't mean I'm mad at Michael. But I am deeply uncomfortable doing the interviews. And - but I "}
{"id": "956820352", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Michael Apted", "title": "Remembering Michael Apted, Creator Of The 'Up' Documentary Series", "question_index": 10, "text": "Do you also feel a certain pressure that every seven years your life sort of had, like, an incremental change where, like, you climb the ladder of success or, you know, accomplish something wonderful in your personal life or, you know, found a new measure of happiness or - do you know what I mean? - so that you could demonstrate something to yourself and to those of us watching?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It actually seems to have got more so. And it's very hard to explain. Before the \"49 Up\" taping happened, Michael came and visited for a couple of days, and we just talked about what we might discuss."}
{"id": "956820352", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Michael Apted", "title": "Remembering Michael Apted, Creator Of The 'Up' Documentary Series", "question_index": 11, "text": "Right, because you grew up on a farm. You went to a one-room schoolhouse. And now you're a professor of electrical engineering at the University of Wisconsin. So yeah, you've accomplished a lot. So how did you get into this in the first place, considering how uncomfortable you are with the whole project?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know? He came from a background where it was going to be hard for him to get up in the morning. So you know, I always looked good."}
{"id": "956820352", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Michael Apted", "title": "Remembering Michael Apted, Creator Of The 'Up' Documentary Series", "question_index": 12, "text": "What have the ground rules been for you? Like, if you say something and you're sorry you said it because you think it might offend your mother or, you know, offend somebody else in your life and be misinterpreted, or it's something you decided was just too personal, you were sorry you said it, do you have the right to say to the director, Michael Apted, I regret I said that. Can we delete it? Can we edit it out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "hey, as far as I knew, they put a camera in front of me and asked me some questions. And I love to talk to people. So these people were talking to me. I chatted to them perfectly happily."}
{"id": "956820352", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Michael Apted", "title": "Remembering Michael Apted, Creator Of The 'Up' Documentary Series", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well, thank you for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. Michael's always been very good about that sort of thing. So yeah, that's - the problem comes when he says, I want to talk about this because it's interesting. And so I say, OK. We'll talk ab"}
{"id": "956820352", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Michael Apted", "title": "Remembering Michael Apted, Creator Of The 'Up' Documentary Series", "question_index": 14, "text": "That was Nick Hitchon, one of the subjects of the documentary \"56 Up.\" Let's get back to my conversation with the director of the \"Up\" series, Michael Apted. So you heard what Nick Hitchon had to say about being in the series and how he really respects the series and really likes you. But it's just painful to be a part of it. And it's hard for him to watch it. And he usually doesn't watch it. Does it make you wince at all to hear that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're welcome."}
{"id": "956820352", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Michael Apted", "title": "Remembering Michael Apted, Creator Of The 'Up' Documentary Series", "question_index": 15, "text": "What did surprise you about \"56 Up\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I don't think so. I mean, he's very willing to be in it. And he's very, very good. He has very incisive things to say, you know, about himself and about society and about his life. There are other"}
{"id": "956820352", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Michael Apted", "title": "Remembering Michael Apted, Creator Of The 'Up' Documentary Series", "question_index": 16, "text": "I'm interested in hearing some of the ground rules that - so to speak - that you've set for the \"Up\" series. I know, for instance, like, you've paid the interviewees in the movie. Was it that way from the start? Or was that something that you instituted in subsequent films?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because - well, because children inherit something from their parents. And even if my wife were the most high-spirited and ordinary and normal of people, the child would still stand a very fair chance"}
{"id": "956820352", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Michael Apted", "title": "Remembering Michael Apted, Creator Of The 'Up' Documentary Series", "question_index": 17, "text": "And when you ask a question and you know that that question is making the person you're interviewing uncomfortable and maybe pushing them to speak a little more privately than they'd care, how do you balance your desire to be protective of them, because they've become people who you care very much about, with your desire to get the best film possible, which probably means pushing them a little bit past their comfort zones?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I started paying them at 28, you know, when we became, as it were, more international. Once you came to America, the film - \"28\" was the first one to be shown in America - you know, then, there "}
{"id": "956820352", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Michael Apted", "title": "Remembering Michael Apted, Creator Of The 'Up' Documentary Series", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. What you have to understand is there's a set of rules when you do longitudinal films. You know, you have to behave yourself as the director, as the interviewer, because you want them to come bac"}
{"id": "956820352", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Michael Apted", "title": "Remembering Michael Apted, Creator Of The 'Up' Documentary Series", "question_index": 19, "text": "Never", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But with these people, I want them back"}
{"id": "956820352", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Michael Apted", "title": "Remembering Michael Apted, Creator Of The 'Up' Documentary Series", "question_index": 20, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But with these people, I want them back"}
{"id": "956820352", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Michael Apted", "title": "Remembering Michael Apted, Creator Of The 'Up' Documentary Series", "question_index": 21, "text": "So can you give us an example of something that you actually, you know, talked about whether to use or not use that was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I'm not being childish. But I want them back. And so - you know, I do have to behave myself."}
{"id": "956820352", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Michael Apted", "title": "Remembering Michael Apted, Creator Of The 'Up' Documentary Series", "question_index": 22, "text": "Do you expect the people in the \"Up\" series to keep you updated as to where they are so you can find them every seven years? And I'm thinking especially here of Neil, who is somebody who seems to have struggled most of his life with depression - and, like, really serious depression - and maybe other issues as well. And there was a period, an extended period, where he was homeless. And I don't know how you track down somebody like Neil when they're in that part of their life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, it was with Tony, the jockey, you know, the - we just - we've had long discussions over the last three or four films about the changing racial profile of the East End of London, which he"}
{"id": "956820352", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Michael Apted", "title": "Remembering Michael Apted, Creator Of The 'Up' Documentary Series", "question_index": 23, "text": "So do you have to grapple with feelings of responsibility for the people whose lives you're documenting during those periods of their lives when they're in trouble?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We did lose track of Neil a bit at 28. And so we did have to try and, you know, get through some piece of bureaucracy to find him. He's always been, you know, very willing to do it. And he's incredibl"}
{"id": "956820352", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Michael Apted", "title": "Remembering Michael Apted, Creator Of The 'Up' Documentary Series", "question_index": 24, "text": "Are you saying there were times you actually, like, helped people out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I would. Yes. And I have done. Yes. I mean, you know, I've given up any notion of objectivity. I mean, you know, I care about them all. And if they need help and I can help or they need advice a"}
{"id": "956820352", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Michael Apted", "title": "Remembering Michael Apted, Creator Of The 'Up' Documentary Series", "question_index": 25, "text": "What kinds of things, if you don't mind my asking? And if you do, that's fine.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Sure."}
{"id": "956820352", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Michael Apted", "title": "Remembering Michael Apted, Creator Of The 'Up' Documentary Series", "question_index": 26, "text": "Michael Apted, thank you so much for talking with us, and congratulations on yet another in the series of \"Up\" movies.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I don't mind. I mean, I've lent money to one or two of them if they've needed it. And they've always paid it back. But, you know, if they're in trouble with stuff, I've always been prepared to hel"}
{"id": "957199019", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Peter Falk", "title": "Remembering Screenwriter William Link, Co-Creator Of 'Columbo,' 'Murder She Wrote'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Tell us how you created the character of Columbo.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Columbo) You see, sir, diamonds don't burn. But you already know that, sir. That's why you took Dorothea Page's necklace off our dead neck, opened her mouth and dropped it down her throat. So you "}
{"id": "957199019", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Peter Falk", "title": "Remembering Screenwriter William Link, Co-Creator Of 'Columbo,' 'Murder She Wrote'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Now, the actors you originally used were considerably older than Peter Falk was when he was cast as Columbo.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Columbo was originally born in 1960 in Hollywood. And one of the brand-new color shows on NBC called \"The Chevrolet Mystery Show\" was a summer replacement for Dinah Shore. And we wrote an hour suspens"}
{"id": "957199019", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Peter Falk", "title": "Remembering Screenwriter William Link, Co-Creator Of 'Columbo,' 'Murder She Wrote'", "question_index": 2, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes. Dick and I, proving how crazy we were - our first choice was Bing Crosby."}
{"id": "957199019", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Peter Falk", "title": "Remembering Screenwriter William Link, Co-Creator Of 'Columbo,' 'Murder She Wrote'", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And we contacted his agent and contacted Bing. But he wanted to play golf."}
{"id": "957199019", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Peter Falk", "title": "Remembering Screenwriter William Link, Co-Creator Of 'Columbo,' 'Murder She Wrote'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Was that mumbly quality something you wrote into the script or something he just brought with him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He did not want to return when he was in his mansion in Hillsboro outside of San Francisco. And Peter Falk we had known socially for many years in New York when he was a struggling, young actor. He di"}
{"id": "957199019", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Peter Falk", "title": "Remembering Screenwriter William Link, Co-Creator Of 'Columbo,' 'Murder She Wrote'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Let's talk about some of the made-for-TV movies that you've written. You were talking about \"Columbo,\" which was one of the early TV movies. Do you remember when you first found out that there were going to be movies made for TV and what your reaction was?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, Peter brought that quality. Everything else was in the stageplay - the raincoat, the cigar. You see the murderer do the dirty deed. Enter the cop who appears to be somewhat of a schlub. Actually, "}
{"id": "957199019", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Peter Falk", "title": "Remembering Screenwriter William Link, Co-Creator Of 'Columbo,' 'Murder She Wrote'", "question_index": 6, "text": "Now, you did one of the first docudramas, \"The Execution Of Private Slovik,\" which was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, we were under contract at Universal. This is in the late '60s. We were quite excited because up to that point, we were freelance writers. And we had been writing, you know, the one-hour segments."}
{"id": "957199019", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Peter Falk", "title": "Remembering Screenwriter William Link, Co-Creator Of 'Columbo,' 'Murder She Wrote'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Was it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. That was our favorite movie and still is."}
{"id": "957199019", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Peter Falk", "title": "Remembering Screenwriter William Link, Co-Creator Of 'Columbo,' 'Murder She Wrote'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Tell briefly the storyline.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "957199019", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Peter Falk", "title": "Remembering Screenwriter William Link, Co-Creator Of 'Columbo,' 'Murder She Wrote'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Now, since this was based on a real story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Eddie Slovik was the first American GI since the Civil War who was executed for desertion. And the story really explores his character and the military justice or lack of same in the armed forces duri"}
{"id": "957199019", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Peter Falk", "title": "Remembering Screenwriter William Link, Co-Creator Of 'Columbo,' 'Murder She Wrote'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Were there legal complications that you had to deal with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes."}
{"id": "957199019", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Peter Falk", "title": "Remembering Screenwriter William Link, Co-Creator Of 'Columbo,' 'Murder She Wrote'", "question_index": 11, "text": "I remember the story from your book \"Stay Tuned\" that your big fear was that at the end of the execution of Private Slovik, after the execution, that the credits would be rolling and Ed McMahon's voice would come on...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. We bought the book by William Bradford Huie, \"The Execution Of Private Slovik.\" We owned that because we bought the rights from Frank Sinatra. Sinatra wanted to film it as a motion picture years b"}
{"id": "957199019", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Peter Falk", "title": "Remembering Screenwriter William Link, Co-Creator Of 'Columbo,' 'Murder She Wrote'", "question_index": 12, "text": "...Promoting the Johnny Carson show...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "957199019", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Peter Falk", "title": "Remembering Screenwriter William Link, Co-Creator Of 'Columbo,' 'Murder She Wrote'", "question_index": 13, "text": "...And the whole spell would be broken.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's correct, yes."}
{"id": "957199019", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Peter Falk", "title": "Remembering Screenwriter William Link, Co-Creator Of 'Columbo,' 'Murder She Wrote'", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we called the president of NBC, and he pulled some strings, and Ed McMahon was silent that evening."}
{"id": "957199019", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Peter Falk", "title": "Remembering Screenwriter William Link, Co-Creator Of 'Columbo,' 'Murder She Wrote'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Tell me about casting. Have you ever had problems with getting someone who you really think is wrong for the role but who an executive wants to put in because it'll be good for tune in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Except what happened was, as that some of the engineers are sometimes prone to do, since we had no music score per se, no dramatic score in the picture, they turned up the wind at the end. We just had"}
{"id": "957199019", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Peter Falk", "title": "Remembering Screenwriter William Link, Co-Creator Of 'Columbo,' 'Murder She Wrote'", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's always a fight with the two-hour movies. The networks have very, very, I think, bizarre choices about who brings people in. Luckily, I cannot think of being forced to use an actor or actress in a"}
{"id": "957200681", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Neil Sheehan", "title": "Remembering Neil Sheehan, Vietnam War Correspondent Who Revealed The Pentagon Papers", "question_index": 0, "text": "You arrived in Vietnam as a reporter for UPI in 1962. You were one of about 12 full-time correspondents who were there. And you describe yourself and the other reporters who were there as wanting to see America win the war as badly as the lieutenant colonels in the military did.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Neil Sheehan, the author and Vietnam War correspondent who acquired the secret history of the war, known as the Pentagon Papers for The New York Times, died last week due to complic"}
{"id": "957200681", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Neil Sheehan", "title": "Remembering Neil Sheehan, Vietnam War Correspondent Who Revealed The Pentagon Papers", "question_index": 1, "text": "You found that one of your best military sources as a reporter in Vietnam in the early 1960s was John Paul Vann, the subject of your new book. And especially after the Battle of Ap Bac in 1963, he was, you thought, exceptionally honest and didn't hold back how discouraging he found the defeat there to be. The American troops lost five helicopters. They were trampled. And he didn't conceal his anger or the extent of the debacle from the reporters.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's correct because, you see, we all shared the same outlook in that generation. It was the outlook - what's now called the outlook of the Cold War, all of those beliefs that - first of all, let's "}
{"id": "957200681", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Neil Sheehan", "title": "Remembering Neil Sheehan, Vietnam War Correspondent Who Revealed The Pentagon Papers", "question_index": 2, "text": "When Daniel Ellsberg offered to leak the Pentagon Papers to you, did you have any doubts about having them published? Did you fear that this would be perhaps an unpatriotic act and that it would damage America's credibility? Did you have any of those fears or doubts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right because by the time Ap Bac occurred, the frustration had been building in John. He had been sent there to get this - to help the South Vietnamese army win this war. And these people didn'"}
{"id": "957200681", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Neil Sheehan", "title": "Remembering Neil Sheehan, Vietnam War Correspondent Who Revealed The Pentagon Papers", "question_index": 3, "text": "What were the consequences you feel you had to face for publication of it? Any harassment or consequences to your journalistic career?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no, I didn't. And this is without getting into the whole business of news sources. That's another story I've never gotten into. But I never - I had no fears that this was going to - that these pap"}
{"id": "957200681", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Neil Sheehan", "title": "Remembering Neil Sheehan, Vietnam War Correspondent Who Revealed The Pentagon Papers", "question_index": 4, "text": "Was it hard for you to be a practicing journalist after you became the man who got access to the Pentagon Papers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Richard Nixon was quite unhappy over the whole thing and didn't want to prosecute the publisher of The New York Times, but they thought for a while they would prosecute a reporter. And they got "}
{"id": "957200681", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Neil Sheehan", "title": "Remembering Neil Sheehan, Vietnam War Correspondent Who Revealed The Pentagon Papers", "question_index": 5, "text": "This is perhaps an absurd question, but if you knew then what you knew now", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I had trouble in the period in which they were investigating me, and I was having my time taken up talking to the lawyers about what - the latest move the Nixon administration made. But I didn't h"}
{"id": "957200681", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Neil Sheehan", "title": "Remembering Neil Sheehan, Vietnam War Correspondent Who Revealed The Pentagon Papers", "question_index": 6, "text": ", if you had more information when you were covering the war, how would you have covered it differently? Do you think you would have been allowed to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I had trouble in the period in which they were investigating me, and I was having my time taken up talking to the lawyers about what - the latest move the Nixon administration made. But I didn't h"}
{"id": "957200681", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Neil Sheehan", "title": "Remembering Neil Sheehan, Vietnam War Correspondent Who Revealed The Pentagon Papers", "question_index": 7, "text": "There were many surprises for you along the way, writing this book. If you could sum up for us - and I know this is an impossible thing to ask - what the greatest change has been for you in your understanding of the war.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wouldn't have been allowed to. You know, quite recently someone - well, he was the deputy ambassador in Saigon; it's called deputy chief of mission in State Department officialese - came up to me an"}
{"id": "957200681", "date": "2021-01-15", "guest": "Neil Sheehan", "title": "Remembering Neil Sheehan, Vietnam War Correspondent Who Revealed The Pentagon Papers", "question_index": 8, "text": "I want to thank you very much for talking with us. Thank you so much for your time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I came away with it realizing that the war - that there was a great sense of inevitability about the war, that given the political and military leadership of this country in the post-World War II peri"}
{"id": "958757753", "date": "2021-01-20", "guest": "Juliet Eilperin", "title": "Biden's Plan To Undo Trump's Last-Minute Deregulatory Spree & Enact A Climate Agenda", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The drama, fear and security concerns surrounding today's inauguration and the shock of the January 6 insurrection have consumed the attention of so many Americans. Meanwhile, more quietly in the background, the Trump administration went on what The Washington Post describes as a spree of environmental rollbacks of rules affecting oil and gas, drilling, mining and logging, along with energy efficiency and standards and restrictions on toxic chemicals. Trump finalized more than two dozen energy and environmental policies since he lost the election. Joe Biden has said he's planning a series of executive actions starting on Day 1 to undo Trump administration environmental policies. Our guest, Juliet Eilperin, is a senior national affairs correspondent at The Washington Post, focusing on climate and the environment. She was part of a team at the Post that won a Pulitzer Prize last year for reporting on climate change. She's been reporting on the regulatory changes Trump enacted at the agencies that oversee the environment and public lands. Eilperin has also been following Biden's plans regarding the environment and climate change and his related staffing choices, including the new position of special presidential envoy on climate change - position to be filled by John Kerry - and a senior director for environmental justice. Juliet Eilperin is also the author of the 2006 book \"Fight Club Politics: How Partisanship Is Poisoning The House Of Representatives.\" We recorded our interview yesterday. Juliet Eilperin, welcome to FRESH AIR. So Trump finalized more than two dozen energy and environmental policies since he lost the election. What are a few of the most significant policy changes just since the election?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "958757753", "date": "2021-01-20", "guest": "Juliet Eilperin", "title": "Biden's Plan To Undo Trump's Last-Minute Deregulatory Spree & Enact A Climate Agenda", "question_index": 1, "text": "So Joe Biden has opposed drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge and has pledged to permanently protect it. What can he do to undo what the Trump administration just did in expediting approval to lease more than 550,000 acres there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One of the biggest ones was, for example, the auctioning off of drilling leases to extract oil and gas from the coastal plain of the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. That happened on January 6, the sa"}
{"id": "958757753", "date": "2021-01-20", "guest": "Juliet Eilperin", "title": "Biden's Plan To Undo Trump's Last-Minute Deregulatory Spree & Enact A Climate Agenda", "question_index": 2, "text": "So it was expected that the leases to develop the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge would go for a lot of money, but that's not what happened. The leases sold for, like, a fraction of what was expected. What's the significance of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a good question, and the answer is not entirely clear right now. One of the key questions is whether the Interior Department, which has been racing to finalize these leases before noon on Inaugur"}
{"id": "958757753", "date": "2021-01-20", "guest": "Juliet Eilperin", "title": "Biden's Plan To Undo Trump's Last-Minute Deregulatory Spree & Enact A Climate Agenda", "question_index": 3, "text": "That's a huge difference - like, 14 million compared to something-billion.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is really reflecting a couple of major factors that are affecting oil and gas drilling, especially in some of these relatively pristine places that matter to many Americans and people across the wo"}
{"id": "958757753", "date": "2021-01-20", "guest": "Juliet Eilperin", "title": "Biden's Plan To Undo Trump's Last-Minute Deregulatory Spree & Enact A Climate Agenda", "question_index": 4, "text": "And what's the significance of development in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge in terms of climate change?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, 14 million to, like, say, 900 million. I mean, it's extraordinary. And what it means is that obviously the American taxpayers and, in fact, Alaskans who benefit from half the proceeds are not ge"}
{"id": "958757753", "date": "2021-01-20", "guest": "Juliet Eilperin", "title": "Biden's Plan To Undo Trump's Last-Minute Deregulatory Spree & Enact A Climate Agenda", "question_index": 5, "text": "So - you know, in terms of the Trump administration creating all these new regulations that open things up to drilling and development in the final days of the Trump administration, and acknowledging that Trump was basically absent during the final days of the Trump administration, do you have any sense of how much Trump cares one way or another about the environment? We know he's been kind of a climate denier. He said it was a hoax. He also called himself a great environmentalist. So - I mean, who knows? But do you have a sense of, like, whether he really cares one way or another about environmental issues?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It has tremendous implications for a number of factors. One is, of course, for a number of the species that live there. The one that certainly draws plenty of attention are polar bears who rely on the"}
{"id": "958757753", "date": "2021-01-20", "guest": "Juliet Eilperin", "title": "Biden's Plan To Undo Trump's Last-Minute Deregulatory Spree & Enact A Climate Agenda", "question_index": 6, "text": "I want to ask you about this. One of Trump's signature campaign promises was to bring back the coal industry. How did that turn out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The sense that my colleagues and I have gotten from covering him is he cares about some of these big-ticket items. For example, he was invested in opening up the refuge to drilling because it was some"}
{"id": "958757753", "date": "2021-01-20", "guest": "Juliet Eilperin", "title": "Biden's Plan To Undo Trump's Last-Minute Deregulatory Spree & Enact A Climate Agenda", "question_index": 7, "text": "Did Trump ever admit that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So in fact, what we've seen is, despite President Trump's dogged efforts to bolster the coal industry, what's happened is that roughly 15% of the nation's coal generated capacity has gone out of busin"}
{"id": "958757753", "date": "2021-01-20", "guest": "Juliet Eilperin", "title": "Biden's Plan To Undo Trump's Last-Minute Deregulatory Spree & Enact A Climate Agenda", "question_index": 8, "text": "OK. Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Juliet Eilperin, a Pulitzer Prize-winning national affairs correspondent for The Washington Post, focusing on environmental policy and climate change. We'll be back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. He never talked about that in any detail whatsoever."}
{"id": "958757753", "date": "2021-01-20", "guest": "Juliet Eilperin", "title": "Biden's Plan To Undo Trump's Last-Minute Deregulatory Spree & Enact A Climate Agenda", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Juliet Eilperin. She covers environmental policy and climate change for The Washington Post, where she's a national correspondent. We're talking about Trump's environmental policies, how Biden wants to undo them and what that will take. So we've been talking about some of the last environmental changes that President Trump made. Let's talk about some of the first things that President Biden has pledged to do. Trump pulled America out of the Paris climate accord. Biden has promised to rejoin the accord on Day 1. And, in fact, because FRESH AIR is broadcast at different times during the day on different stations, it's possible that by the time you hear this, Biden will have already rejoined the climate accord. What is the significance of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. He never talked about that in any detail whatsoever."}
{"id": "958757753", "date": "2021-01-20", "guest": "Juliet Eilperin", "title": "Biden's Plan To Undo Trump's Last-Minute Deregulatory Spree & Enact A Climate Agenda", "question_index": 10, "text": "So Biden is appointing John Kerry to a new key climate position, special presidential envoy on climate change. Kerry was key in negotiating the Paris climate accord and in convincing other countries to join it. What role does this give Kerry now, this new position?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It really sends a signal to the world that the United States is going to reengage in climate diplomacy and that it will not only take more significant steps to curb its own carbon output, but it will "}
{"id": "958757753", "date": "2021-01-20", "guest": "Juliet Eilperin", "title": "Biden's Plan To Undo Trump's Last-Minute Deregulatory Spree & Enact A Climate Agenda", "question_index": 11, "text": "On Trump's third day in office, he approved the Keystone XL pipeline. And Biden has pledged to cancel it on Day 1. And as I said before, because FRESH AIR is broadcast at different times during the day on different stations, it's possible that Biden will have already canceled the pipeline. But it might take longer than Day 1 for him to actually do it. Why is this pipeline so controversial?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's certainly something that we'll have to see over time because, as you mentioned, it's something new. And he will have both his own staff within the White House who will be working to elevate these"}
{"id": "958757753", "date": "2021-01-20", "guest": "Juliet Eilperin", "title": "Biden's Plan To Undo Trump's Last-Minute Deregulatory Spree & Enact A Climate Agenda", "question_index": 12, "text": "And Biden can just do that through an executive order?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This pipeline has been, really, a flashpoint on the question of climate change for over a decade. The reason it's so significant is because it will transport the most carbon intense form of oil, which"}
{"id": "958757753", "date": "2021-01-20", "guest": "Juliet Eilperin", "title": "Biden's Plan To Undo Trump's Last-Minute Deregulatory Spree & Enact A Climate Agenda", "question_index": 13, "text": "Biden has promised to end fossil fuel leasing and drilling on all public land. Can he do that? Does he have the power to do that without Congress?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. One of the, actually, really interesting things is that under the Obama administration and for years before, to get one of these cross-border permits, the State Department had to conduct a length"}
{"id": "958757753", "date": "2021-01-20", "guest": "Juliet Eilperin", "title": "Biden's Plan To Undo Trump's Last-Minute Deregulatory Spree & Enact A Climate Agenda", "question_index": 14, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Juliet Eilperin a senior national affairs correspondent for The Washington Post. We'll talk more about Trump and Biden's environmental policies after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It will be extremely difficult both because of, as you mentioned, the issue of Congress, but even more significantly, there are legal requirements that - you know, for example, the federal government "}
{"id": "958757753", "date": "2021-01-20", "guest": "Juliet Eilperin", "title": "Biden's Plan To Undo Trump's Last-Minute Deregulatory Spree & Enact A Climate Agenda", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Juliet Eilperin, senior national affairs correspondent for The Washington Post, about Trump's environmental policies, Biden's promise to undo them and what that will take. Eilperin shared a Pulitzer Prize for her reporting at the Post on climate change. Can you explain to us what are some of the things that Biden can do just through executive order to undo Trump's executive orders, and what Biden needs Congress to change?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It will be extremely difficult both because of, as you mentioned, the issue of Congress, but even more significantly, there are legal requirements that - you know, for example, the federal government "}
{"id": "958757753", "date": "2021-01-20", "guest": "Juliet Eilperin", "title": "Biden's Plan To Undo Trump's Last-Minute Deregulatory Spree & Enact A Climate Agenda", "question_index": 16, "text": "Joe Biden has called climate change an existential threat. What are some of the other things he said he will do to try to slow climate change?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. So there are some policies that were adopted - again, whether it's, say, a memo from the interior secretary instructing researchers on how they should calculate the impacts of climate change or "}
{"id": "958757753", "date": "2021-01-20", "guest": "Juliet Eilperin", "title": "Biden's Plan To Undo Trump's Last-Minute Deregulatory Spree & Enact A Climate Agenda", "question_index": 17, "text": "You know, it's not just Trump administration environmental regulations that Biden wants to undo. It's the whole atmosphere of information. You know, the Trump administration has been accused of basically cooking reports to downplay any evidence of climate change and to, you know, have those reports be written from the point of view of either climate denial or climate skepticism. Can you talk a little bit about climate-related information during the Trump administration and how reports reflected the climate skepticism of Trump's agencies?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a good question. He has really talked about promoting renewable energy, and even as he's talking about curbing greenhouse gas emissions from a range of different sources in the United States, he'"}
{"id": "958757753", "date": "2021-01-20", "guest": "Juliet Eilperin", "title": "Biden's Plan To Undo Trump's Last-Minute Deregulatory Spree & Enact A Climate Agenda", "question_index": 18, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Juliet Eilperin, a Pulitzer Prize-winning national affairs correspondent for The Washington Post, focusing on environmental policy and climate change. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This has been a huge area of contested terrain under President Trump. What we've really seen is a combination of a few different factors. One is that you have political appointees who have edited repo"}
{"id": "958757753", "date": "2021-01-20", "guest": "Juliet Eilperin", "title": "Biden's Plan To Undo Trump's Last-Minute Deregulatory Spree & Enact A Climate Agenda", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Juliet Eilperin. She covers environmental policy and climate change for The Washington Post, where she's a senior national correspondent. We're talking about Trump's environmental policies, how Biden wants to undo them and what that will take. We recorded our interview yesterday. Biden is appointing Deb Haaland to be the head of the Interior Department. She will be the first Native American Cabinet secretary. What is the significance of her being Native American and heading Interior, assuming she's confirmed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This has been a huge area of contested terrain under President Trump. What we've really seen is a combination of a few different factors. One is that you have political appointees who have edited repo"}
{"id": "958757753", "date": "2021-01-20", "guest": "Juliet Eilperin", "title": "Biden's Plan To Undo Trump's Last-Minute Deregulatory Spree & Enact A Climate Agenda", "question_index": 20, "text": "Biden's choice to head the Environmental Protection Agency is Michael Regan. He's African American, and he will be the first Black man to head the agency. Tell us about him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It really is one of the most significant appointments in terms of the symbolism, given the fact that the Interior Department has such power over the lives of tribal members across this country. There'"}
{"id": "958757753", "date": "2021-01-20", "guest": "Juliet Eilperin", "title": "Biden's Plan To Undo Trump's Last-Minute Deregulatory Spree & Enact A Climate Agenda", "question_index": 21, "text": "Biden is creating a new position, a senior director for environmental justice. What will be the job of the person in that position? Has he chosen the person yet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's a North Carolina environmental official, the top official under the Democratic governor, who's really worked on a number of high-profile issues, particularly involving environmental justice. This"}
{"id": "958757753", "date": "2021-01-20", "guest": "Juliet Eilperin", "title": "Biden's Plan To Undo Trump's Last-Minute Deregulatory Spree & Enact A Climate Agenda", "question_index": 22, "text": "I want to ask you about carbon emissions - very big issue when it comes to climate change, and even people who agree that we have to cut back on carbon emissions often disagree on what the plan should be. And then if you get into cap and trade, there's so many kind of technical details about how to do that. Do you have a sense of how Biden wants to cut back on carbon emissions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Joe Biden has chosen a person who will serve in that position. That's Cecilia Martinez. She's a very interesting environmental justice advocate who comes out of the Twin Cities in Minnesota. And she's"}
{"id": "958757753", "date": "2021-01-20", "guest": "Juliet Eilperin", "title": "Biden's Plan To Undo Trump's Last-Minute Deregulatory Spree & Enact A Climate Agenda", "question_index": 23, "text": "You're a senior national correspondent for The Washington Post. You covered Congress in the past. In 2006, you wrote a book about partisanship in Congress called \"Fight Club Politics: How Partisanship Is Poisoning The House Of Representatives.\" A lot has happened since 2006. If it was partisan in 2006, it's really partisan, really partisan now in Congress. What are some of the biggest changes you've seen since you wrote that book?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, certainly in many cases, the - he'll be using carrots as well as some sticks. So as we've discussed, the incoming Biden administration is really going to promote renewable energy projects and, a"}
{"id": "958757753", "date": "2021-01-20", "guest": "Juliet Eilperin", "title": "Biden's Plan To Undo Trump's Last-Minute Deregulatory Spree & Enact A Climate Agenda", "question_index": 24, "text": "So in 2019, you shared a Pulitzer Prize at The Washington Post for a series of articles on climate change. And you reported something that I found that's just so interesting that one of the biggest changes in climate was actually not at the North Pole. I mean, the North Pole is the biggest, but alongside of that was, like, the northeast, places like New York, New Jersey. And although living in Philly, I have noticed that the winters have seemed a little bit warmer. I was really surprised to see that that was one of the most significant areas in the winter for climate warming. Could you just, like, take a minute or two - just a minute or two - to explain why, like, New York and New Jersey are two of the biggest places for climate change right now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Really, as you mentioned, the polarization has just become so much more intense. It's really striking when you see how difficult it is for, for example, lawmakers of opposing parties to come together "}
{"id": "958757753", "date": "2021-01-20", "guest": "Juliet Eilperin", "title": "Biden's Plan To Undo Trump's Last-Minute Deregulatory Spree & Enact A Climate Agenda", "question_index": 25, "text": "Juliet Eilperin, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. And this was something that surprised us, too. When we crunched the numbers, particularly my colleagues Chris Mooney and John Muyskens were looking at these different databases, and we were able"}
{"id": "958757753", "date": "2021-01-20", "guest": "Juliet Eilperin", "title": "Biden's Plan To Undo Trump's Last-Minute Deregulatory Spree & Enact A Climate Agenda", "question_index": 26, "text": "Juliet Eilperin is a senior national affairs correspondent for The Washington Post. We recorded our interview yesterday. After we take a short break, John Powers will review the new film \"Spoor,\" which he says is a fiercely offbeat Polish thriller whose heroine is unlike any woman you will see on screen. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks, Terry. It's been a real pleasure."}
{"id": "959223126", "date": "2021-01-22", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Biography Traces Political Mistakes And Personal Scars That Shaped Joe Biden", "question_index": 0, "text": "Evan Osnos, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Biden was elected in October of '72 to the Senate. And in December, just a few weeks before he was supposed to be sworn in, his wife was driving her station wagon with their two sons and baby daughter in the car when they were hit by a tractor trailer. And as most people know, his wife and baby daughter were killed. His two sons were badly injured. It's a famous life-changing story in Joe Biden's biography. What did you learn that you didn't already know and that you think the public might not know about the impact of that tragedy on his life and his political career?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, editor of the website TV Worth Watching, sitting in for Terry Gross. On the week that Joe Biden was inaugurated as our new president of the United States, our f"}
{"id": "959223126", "date": "2021-01-22", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Biography Traces Political Mistakes And Personal Scars That Shaped Joe Biden", "question_index": 1, "text": "What did he stand for in his early years as a senator?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when it happened, the reality is that Joe Biden did not expect to take his seat in the Senate. He thought that period of his life was over. He didn't see, practically or spiritually, how he coul"}
{"id": "959223126", "date": "2021-01-22", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Biography Traces Political Mistakes And Personal Scars That Shaped Joe Biden", "question_index": 2, "text": "You know, in talking about his early years, you write that the ADA, Americans for Democratic Action - which was a liberal progressive group - gave Biden a high rating, and he was very concerned about that. He thought that might be a political negative for him. So what did he do in response to that? Did he do anything?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Interestingly, in his very early years as a senator, he was kind of a moving target politically. I mean, to be blunt about it, he was sort of - he was more concerned about being reelected than he was "}
{"id": "959223126", "date": "2021-01-22", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Biography Traces Political Mistakes And Personal Scars That Shaped Joe Biden", "question_index": 3, "text": "If he was so driven by getting reelected and getting votes, do you think that his reaction changed over the years and that he became more concerned about policy and his positions that he really believed in, as opposed to just playing to voters?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he had a funny reaction to that rating. It was, after all, supposed to be a great compliment to him. He had run against the war in Vietnam. He'd been active on civil rights. And so he'd received"}
{"id": "959223126", "date": "2021-01-22", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Biography Traces Political Mistakes And Personal Scars That Shaped Joe Biden", "question_index": 4, "text": "One of the important things about Joe Biden's career in the Senate is that he served as the head of the Senate Judiciary Committee. In that role, he helped stop Robert Bork, who was very conservative and was an originalist - stopped him from being confirmed. But a few years later, when Clarence Thomas was facing his confirmation hearings, Biden prevented women from coming forward to testify before the committee who would have supported Anita Hill and who would have offered their own similar allegations that they were sexually harassed by Clarence Thomas. What's your understanding of why Biden did not allow those women to testify to the committee?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview with author and New Yorker writer Evan Osnos, who wrote the recent biography of Joe Biden. It's called \"Joe Biden: The Life, The Run, And What Ma"}
{"id": "959223126", "date": "2021-01-22", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Biography Traces Political Mistakes And Personal Scars That Shaped Joe Biden", "question_index": 5, "text": "She's kind of reluctantly endorsed him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think you're right to bring up both of those two confirmation hearings because they were sort of, in his mind, related. I mean, Joe Biden - the important fact was that Biden imagined himself i"}
{"id": "959223126", "date": "2021-01-22", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Biography Traces Political Mistakes And Personal Scars That Shaped Joe Biden", "question_index": 6, "text": "The first time that Biden ran for president in the Democratic primary was in 1987. He didn't do very well. He dropped out pretty early. What was the perception of why he didn't do well?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She has. I mean, they spoke before he was a candidate, and he expressed his, you know, his regret to her that she had not had a more decent appearance in Congress in which people had treated her more "}
{"id": "959223126", "date": "2021-01-22", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Biography Traces Political Mistakes And Personal Scars That Shaped Joe Biden", "question_index": 7, "text": "Dropping out of the race may have saved his life because after he dropped out, he had a cranial aneurysm, and he'd been basically ignoring the symptoms that he was having.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "At the time, he was regarded as a bit of an arrogant guy - I mean, a bit of a blowhard in a town, after all, that is known for blowhards. I mean, that's the reality. The young Joe Biden - he was still"}
{"id": "959223126", "date": "2021-01-22", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Biography Traces Political Mistakes And Personal Scars That Shaped Joe Biden", "question_index": 8, "text": "He came so close to death last rites were read to him. A surgeon warned him that after surgery, he might not ever be able to speak again. What impact do you think that had on his life and his approach to politics?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's one of these amazing episodes that doesn't really get talked about that much because it's overwhelmed by some of the big milestones in his political biography. But within a few months of dr"}
{"id": "959223126", "date": "2021-01-22", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Biography Traces Political Mistakes And Personal Scars That Shaped Joe Biden", "question_index": 9, "text": "The Trump administration has dismantled parts of government. A key department in handling pandemics was shut down. The State Department was kind of dismantled - so many empty offices there, even before the pandemic emptied out a lot of offices. But, I mean, there's just so many positions not filled. What would it take for the Biden administration to rebuild some of the parts of government that were dismantled by the Trump administration? How hard is it to rebuild a government?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it confirmed this growing sense, which became a big part of his self-narrative, that in the end, political problems - none of them - are going to be as serious and as grave as the sheer matter"}
{"id": "959223126", "date": "2021-01-22", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "Biography Traces Political Mistakes And Personal Scars That Shaped Joe Biden", "question_index": 10, "text": "Evan Osnos, it's always a pleasure to have you on our show. Thank you so much for returning.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they face this very hard problem, and it's two things. One is there are parts of the government that have just been starved of resources, offices that have been closed, experts that have been si"}
{"id": "959579707", "date": "2021-01-22", "guest": "Howard Johnson", "title": "Remembering Jazz Tuba Player Howard Johnson", "question_index": 0, "text": "Could you sing one of the lines that he wrote that he thought would be very challenging but that worked really well into the piece?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "959579707", "date": "2021-01-22", "guest": "Howard Johnson", "title": "Remembering Jazz Tuba Player Howard Johnson", "question_index": 1, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Can I sing one?"}
{"id": "959579707", "date": "2021-01-22", "guest": "Howard Johnson", "title": "Remembering Jazz Tuba Player Howard Johnson", "question_index": 2, "text": "How did you start playing in rock bands?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's some good writing by Bob Hammer on his album called \"Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus Mingus\" - has to do with singing, you know, when there's long chords being held. It has to do with singing up t"}
{"id": "959579707", "date": "2021-01-22", "guest": "Howard Johnson", "title": "Remembering Jazz Tuba Player Howard Johnson", "question_index": 3, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I never had the sense that there was any kind of music that's not as good as some other, you know. There's no bad music. There's some bad playing."}
{"id": "959579707", "date": "2021-01-22", "guest": "Howard Johnson", "title": "Remembering Jazz Tuba Player Howard Johnson", "question_index": 4, "text": "What did he have you do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But if I could see myself in it, I would do it, you know. I mean, I did stuff with John Lennon, you know, I loved doing that, you know."}
{"id": "959579707", "date": "2021-01-22", "guest": "Howard Johnson", "title": "Remembering Jazz Tuba Player Howard Johnson", "question_index": 5, "text": "How did you get into the band? '75 was the first year, wasn't it? Yeah. So how did that happen?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1984 interview with musician Howard Johnson, who found ways to popularize the tuba as a contemporary jazz instrument. In 1975, he began working with the or"}
{"id": "959579707", "date": "2021-01-22", "guest": "Howard Johnson", "title": "Remembering Jazz Tuba Player Howard Johnson", "question_index": 6, "text": "Did you think it would be like the Merv Griffin band?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- I actually almost ended up not doing that one, too, because I told Howard when he first talked to me about it, I would give him some names. But I didn't really want to play because I didn't want to "}
{"id": "959579707", "date": "2021-01-22", "guest": "Howard Johnson", "title": "Remembering Jazz Tuba Player Howard Johnson", "question_index": 7, "text": "Was it fun being in the band? I think that, like, during rehearsals, for instance, that the actors might have really played to the band.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, something like that, you know. And he said, well, if you feel that way, then you're definitely the man for us 'cause we don't want a band like that. We want this to be the best band on television"}
{"id": "959579707", "date": "2021-01-22", "guest": "Howard Johnson", "title": "Remembering Jazz Tuba Player Howard Johnson", "question_index": 8, "text": "Do you think that your work has inspired music students to learn tuba?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But the cast would come up there and hang out a little bit, but they couldn't hang with the band too much 'cause they had to be more together than that, you know."}
{"id": "959579707", "date": "2021-01-22", "guest": "Howard Johnson", "title": "Remembering Jazz Tuba Player Howard Johnson", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't really think so. Well, first of all, they don't know what it is, you know. Like I said, I haven't been overrecorded as a soloist or as doing what I do. I'm mostly recorded as what other people"}
{"id": "959579707", "date": "2021-01-22", "guest": "Howard Johnson", "title": "Remembering Jazz Tuba Player Howard Johnson", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, I'm glad it's worked out as well as it has 'cause I've enjoyed your music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know? And I mean, you know, I just had to be tuned to that in every way 'cause there were no - I mean, I grew up in Ohio. Right? There was nothing on the radio, maybe two hours a week of jazz on t"}
{"id": "959579707", "date": "2021-01-22", "guest": "Howard Johnson", "title": "Remembering Jazz Tuba Player Howard Johnson", "question_index": 11, "text": "And I want to thank you very much for being here.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you."}
{"id": "960303320", "date": "2021-01-25", "guest": "Larry King", "title": "Remembering Broadcasting Legend Larry King", "question_index": 0, "text": "A couple of things I'd like to know about what happens when you don't read the book. First of all, how can you figure out beforehand what's special about a person? And I don't mean necessarily how to get them to tell the great story that you know in advance is going to be really funny. But, like, what makes this particular ballet dancer, who you refer to, different than every other ballet dancer? How do you know to - where to reach for that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I'm a natural interviewer and also a street interviewer. By that I mean I don't plan an interview. I never think about what I'm going to ask ever. I approach the interview as I approach - when"}
{"id": "960303320", "date": "2021-01-25", "guest": "Larry King", "title": "Remembering Broadcasting Legend Larry King", "question_index": 1, "text": "You've been on this book tour for the past couple of weeks. Is there anything that you do that you feel really reinforced in or that you're thinking of changing, having spent the last two weeks on the other side of the microphone?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one, I don't book the guests. I don't book the guests. Our production staff books the guests. And they will tell me, Miguel DiGuano (ph) is on Monday night. Miguel DiGuano's a famous Spanish bal"}
{"id": "960303320", "date": "2021-01-25", "guest": "Larry King", "title": "Remembering Broadcasting Legend Larry King", "question_index": 2, "text": "You're from Bensonhurst in Brooklyn, and your name was Larry Zeiger before you changed it to Larry King. Did you want to do that yourself, or was it suggested by your station that you change it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd maybe like to broaden the interview to an hour and a half and do an hour-and-a-half phone calls because I've learned how much depth means. You know, you really don't know a person in 15 minutes. I"}
{"id": "960303320", "date": "2021-01-25", "guest": "Larry King", "title": "Remembering Broadcasting Legend Larry King", "question_index": 3, "text": "I've been trying to place your voice. I mean, obviously it's the voice of Larry King. But is it Joseph Cotten I'm thinking of?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was suggested 10 minutes before I went on the air the first day. I'd always wanted to get into radio, and I was hanging around this station. And one guy quit. And on Friday night they told me, you "}
{"id": "960303320", "date": "2021-01-25", "guest": "Larry King", "title": "Remembering Broadcasting Legend Larry King", "question_index": 4, "text": "Does your voice sound like Joseph Cotten?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was suggested 10 minutes before I went on the air the first day. I'd always wanted to get into radio, and I was hanging around this station. And one guy quit. And on Friday night they told me, you "}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Ellen Harper, grew up in the 1950s and '60s surrounded by folk music icons, immersed in songs about unions and civil rights, as well as blues, hymns and gospel music. Her parents founded the Folk Music Center in Claremont, Calif, east of LA. Ellen has worked there much of her life in addition to having been a professor of education at Cal State in San Bernardino and singing and playing with several bands. She runs the center now. Her son, Ben Harper, who is with us, too, also grew up in the folk music center and became a Grammy Award-winning singer, songwriter and guitarist. Ben has written the foreword to Ellen's new memoir, \"Always A Song: Singers, Songwriters, Sinners, And Saints - My Story Of The Folk Music Revival.\" The Folk Music Center became a place to buy, repair and restore guitars and banjos, learn to play guitar and banjo and gather with other musicians. Her parents founded the Folk Music Center in 1958 after her father was blacklisted for refusing to name names and lost his teaching job. At the time, the family was living in Massachusetts. And Ellen's mother was teaching guitar and banjo with Bess Lomax Hawes, who sang with Pete Seeger and the Almanac Singers and was the daughter of John Lomax and the sister of Alan Lomax, two of the best-known American folklorists. Ellen's father had already learned to repair guitars. It was Pete Seeger who suggested that if he started a shop selling and repairing instruments, he would never have to worry about being hired or fired in spite of the blacklist. Ellen Harper, Ben Harper, welcome to FRESH AIR. It's a pleasure to have you on our show. I want to start with a song. It's called \"A House Is A Home.\" And it's from the album of duets that you recorded together called \"Childhood Home.\" You recorded this in 2013. It was released in 2014. And, Ben, this was when you decided you wanted to do an album of duets with your mother. What made you decide to do that?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Well, let's hear the song. This is Ellen and Ben Harper duetting on Ben's song \"A House Is A Home.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I recorded a record with my mom because it was something I had always wanted to do. We used to sing around the house constantly. So for me, growing up and growing into being a professional music"}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 2, "text": "ELLEN", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I recorded a record with my mom because it was something I had always wanted to do. We used to sing around the house constantly. So for me, growing up and growing into being a professional music"}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 3, "text": "That's my guests Ellen and Ben Harper duetting on \"A House Is A Home.\" So Ellen Harper, home was where you lived. But the Folk Music Center was where you grew up in a lot of ways. What was it like as a childhood home for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) A house is a home even when it's dark, even when the grass is overgrown in the yard, even when the dog is too old to bark and when you're sitting at the table trying not to start. A house is"}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 4, "text": "You know, I didn't mention this in the introduction. But in addition to having, you know, the store, your family also had a performance space in which a lot of folk musicians and blues musicians would come and perform. And many of them would stay at your house. So who did you - who stayed at your house? Who are some of those luminaries?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think, sometimes, when you're young, a child growing up, you accept what is in your environment as what's normal and what is home. It wasn't until I was a little older that I realized it was a very "}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 5, "text": "And this was during the folk music revival. So the musicians who you mentioned were really revered. And there was a growing awareness and growing popularity of folk music. So you were a part of this really important culture or subculture as a child and as a young woman and an adult. Then when you were a child, your mother was working at the Folk Music Center. And she had her hands full because she had three children. You had two brothers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We had - there were many of them. The - Brownie McGhee and Sonny Terry stayed quite often. We had Doc Watson. And sometimes Doc Watson would have Clarence Ashley with him. And we also had Kathy and Ca"}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 6, "text": "So after school, you'd go to the Folk Music Center. Describe what it was like for you as a child growing up there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 7, "text": "You both grew up surrounded by your parents' music. But you both developed music tastes of your own. Ellen, what were your parents' music? And what was the music taste you developed on your own?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a wonderland. It was a wonderland. You know, any sound that you could imagine could be made seemed to be inside those four walls. And the players that would come in and pick an instrument off t"}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 8, "text": "But you also, when you were in your teens, got interested in, say, psychedelic music and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I always had as a foundation the folk music. Call it three chords and an old guitar or - is what we used to say. And so pretty much, my taste developed from that, from the roots music. And I went into"}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 9, "text": "...You know, rock. And how'd your - what'd your parents think of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes."}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Ben, how did the music you grew up with affect the music that you make as a singer and songwriter?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, they were fine with it. My mother was very open minded, really, about all kinds of music. I think it was the traditional folk music when it went commercial, with, like, the Limeliters and the King"}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 11, "text": "You said, I think the title was supposed to mean something", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I remember that."}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I remember that."}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 13, "text": "Ellen, how'd you feel about hip-hop when Ben started listening to it? Did you feel like you understood it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, a long-winded way of saying, I had access to that collection. And finally, again, when I had put the final scratch in her - one of my mom's coveted albums, she got - she - what'd she do? She we"}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 14, "text": "So would you have conversations about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's true. And there was, you know, a certain amount of violence or misogyny and - which bothered me at the time."}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here. And then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, I have two guests, Ellen Harper and Ben Harper. Ellen is the author of the new memoir \"Always A Song: Singers, Songwriters, Sinners, And Saints - My Story Of The Folk Music Revival.\" Her son is Ben Harper. He's a Grammy Award-winning singer, songwriter and guitarist. He wrote the foreword to the new memoir. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I hear that."}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Ellen Harper, author of the new memoir, \"Always A Song: Singers, Songwriters, Sinners, And Saints - My Story Of The Folk Music Revival.\" In 1958, her parents founded the Folk Music Center in Claremont, Calif., which Ellen runs now. Her son, Ben Harper, who is also with us, like his mother, grew up in the center. He's now a Grammy Award-winning singer-songwriter and guitarist. He wrote the foreword to his mother's new memoir. Ellen, your family was very political. Your grandmother was accused of being a communist. And she was jailed. The center, the Folk Music Center, was started because your father was blacklisted. And he lost his job as a teacher. What was it like for you as a child to know that your grandmother had been jailed, that your father had lost his job, your family had to move as a result to start over again? And so you felt - I would imagine you felt that politics was important, and it was also risky and dangerous.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I hear that."}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Oh, yeah, because you were getting insulted at school because of your father's politics. And your parents, instead of - sounds like instead of comforting you, they said, hey, toughen up; just go back.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's true. I - when my father was blacklisted and called before the HUAC in Massachusetts, I was 7 years old. And I can tell you, like, a brief story, what it was like, as a 7-year-old, to go back t"}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 18, "text": "So do you think it did strengthen you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's exactly what they did. And that's exactly what I did."}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 19, "text": "So - you know, Pete Seeger told your father, set up your own business. Do - you know, start this, like, shop to sell and repair instruments. And then you won't have to worry about being hired or fired. So your father must have known Pete Seeger - or I guess it was your mother who knew Pete Seeger well enough to say, hey, help us out here; give us some advice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it strengthened me. But I think having your world turned upside down, just having the rug pulled right out from under you, from one day to the next, makes you feel that the world is not a secu"}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 20, "text": "And, Ellen, you learned how to repair instruments, and you've done that in the Folk Music Center. And, Ben, you grew up learning how to do that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, he did. My mother taught guitar and banjo lessons at Hecht House, which is a community center in Boston. And she took the classes over from Bess Hawes when Bess moved to California. And Pete used"}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 21, "text": "And it sounds like you almost did that professionally instead of becoming a musician.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 22, "text": "So you almost did that professionally until your grandfather, Ellen's father, told you after a performance that you had a calling musically.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that - I was full-steam-ahead in luthiery and instrument construction and repair."}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, I have two guests - Ellen Harper and Ben Harper. Ellen is the author of the new memoir \"Always A Song: Singers, Songwriters, Sinners, And Saints - My Story Of The Folk Music Revival.\" Her son Ben is a Grammy Award-winning singer, songwriter and guitarist and wrote the foreword to the new memoir. We'll be right back after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I was doing repairs and fielding repairs from all the local music stores and had committed a good four or five years to learning the art of instrument repair - violin repair, the violin family, "}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 24, "text": "E", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I was doing repairs and fielding repairs from all the local music stores and had committed a good four or five years to learning the art of instrument repair - violin repair, the violin family, "}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 25, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Ellen and Ben Harper. Ellen is the author of the new memoir \"Always A Song: Singers, Songwriters, Sinners, and Saints - My Story Of The Folk Music Revival.\" In 1958, when she was 11, her parents founded the Folk Music Center in Claremont, Calif., which sold and repaired banjos and guitars, and where her mother taught banjo and guitar and where Ellen eventually did the same. When she was growing up, she was surrounded by folk music luminaries and was good friends with their children, like Jean Ritchie's daughter Judy, and Woody Guthrie's son Bill, who died in a car crash when he was in his 20s. Ellen grew up in the center, spent much of her life working there, giving music lessons and repairing instruments. She runs it now. She also spent years as an education professor at Cal State University in San Bernardino. Her son, Ben Harper, who is with us, too, also grew up in the Folk Music Center and became a Grammy Award-winning singer, songwriter and guitarist. He wrote the foreword to Ellen's new memoir. Ellen, you became very close with Woody Guthrie's son Bill, and he died in a car crash when he was 23. And I think you were still in your teens.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) My daddy is a farmer. That makes me the farmer's daughter. But it's no joke. We're always broke. Can't live on dirt and water. We can't live on dirt and water. We can't plant, and we can't g"}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 26, "text": "And you were very close to him. And it sounded like you really had a crush on him, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I was about 15 1/2. I don't think I was even 16 yet."}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 27, "text": "So one of the things he told you was that he didn't want to have children because he was afraid of inheriting the disease that killed his father, Huntington's disease. And when he died, you thought maybe he killed himself. Do you still think that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I did have a crush on him. I guess he was sort of a first love."}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 28, "text": "There's a story that you tell, Ellen, that I'd like you to tell 'cause I think every woman who isn't, like, beautiful but has a friend who is very attractive might relate to this story. And it's a story about meeting Bob Dylan with a friend of yours who wasn't a close friend, who came backstage with you. And you had backstage access 'cause your parents knew everybody, including Bob Dylan.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I really don't know. It was a lot to absorb for someone my age if someone that I had a crush on, someone older than me - that he - when he confided in me how he felt, that was what came to mind. I jus"}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 29, "text": "And you're the one who got the access.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's - you know, I had turned - what was I by then? Seventeen, I think. And my eye for fashion, the latest Nehru jacket and went to meet Bob Dylan after the show. And I got - what? - supersede"}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 30, "text": "You met your first husband, Leonard Harper, at a party in which there were some musicians jamming and Leonard was playing conga. And you write, he was the rare Black person among the usual mix of white Claremont musicians. So - you know, you met. You dated. You fell in love. You eventually married. You both knew that there would be problems that you would face as an interracial couple. And he had first split up with you claiming that it was because, you know, if you had children and - 'cause he thought marriage would be the next step - and if you had children, that will be really hard on the children. But you got together again. You had three children. What were some of the problems that you faced at the time? And what year are we talking about when you got married?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And she just sort of slithered in behind us. And in retrospect, I have to hand it to her, you know? She was bold."}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 31, "text": "So you had seen what could happen to a Black person in a white community that didn't want him there. When you were growing up, the couple who owned the house next door was leaving for a few years and was going to rent while they were gone. And they rented to an African American couple. The husband was a doctor, and there was a cross burned on the lawn. I mean, they were basically driven out in spite of their intentions to stay.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We got married in 1969 - early 1969. And I think I read a statistic that in 1968, only 17% of the American population approved of interracial marriage. And in fact, I think the Loving v. the state of "}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 32, "text": "But you'd seen how the hatred can really become violent.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were driven out. But they went straight back to that property that they purchased and where the cross had burned, and they built their house, and they lived there for the rest of their days."}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 33, "text": "So you weren't naive about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I had."}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 34, "text": "He had been addicted in high school. It sounds like he had a really bad alcohol problem in high school. He wasn't drinking when you met, at least not visibly. But then the first night you saw him falling down drunk was on your wedding night. And eventually, it got really bad.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I wasn't. And I think Leonard and I both knew what we were facing when we made that choice and that there would be hard times. But that's not - interestingly enough, it wasn't about color or racis"}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 35, "text": "And you tell the story of how, like, one night he beat you really badly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 36, "text": "Why was he angry that you went to Al-Anon?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, he did. He - when I met Leonard and he said that he had had a drinking problem in high school, but that he had - he was - had taken care of it. He wasn't - he didn't have a problem anymore. I bel"}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 37, "text": "Sounds like he'd been a high-functioning alcoholic, at least for a good deal of the time. He was an administrator, a college administrator, who was, you know, very respected and did quite well.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think Leonard - you know, with all the accumulated knowledge - and I've looked into lots of research on addiction - I think he probably had a serious anxiety problem. He had been - he went to therap"}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 38, "text": "Let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, I have two guests, Ellen Harper and Ben Harper. Ellen is the author of the new memoir \"Always A Song: Singers, Songwriters, Sinners, And Saints - My Story Of The Folk Music Revival.\" Her son Ben is a Grammy Award-winning singer, songwriter and guitarist and wrote the foreword to the new memoir. We'll be right back after this break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was very respected. He was high functioning in the world, out in the world. And - but at home, it was a different story. And in one - I don't know if there was a time when he made a decision that h"}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 39, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Ellen Harper, author of the new memoir \"Always A Song: Singers, Songwriters, Sinners, And Saints - My Story Of The Folk Music Revival.\" In 1958, her parents founded the Folk Music Center in Claremont, Calif., which Ellen now runs. Her son Ben Harper, who's also with us, like his mother, grew up in the center. He's now a Grammy Award-winning singer, songwriter and guitarist. He wrote the foreword to her new memoir. When we left off, we were talking about Ellen Harper's first husband, Leonard, who developed an alcohol addiction and became physically abusive. So the turning point for you was a night when he punched you several times, and you ended up with deep bruises, two dislocated ribs, one of which was fractured. You took your three sons and left, and that was that. You hired a lawyer and filed for divorce. You went to the ER, you know, that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was very respected. He was high functioning in the world, out in the world. And - but at home, it was a different story. And in one - I don't know if there was a time when he made a decision that h"}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 40, "text": "...You know, hours later. And the nurse there said to you, don't go back because he'll kill you. Maybe not the next time; maybe it'll be the time after that. But your mother gave you the advice - no, go back to him. You should be married - you were married, I think, for eight years. And she said, you should be married at least 10 years before you give up on the marriage. I was surprised she gave you that advice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did."}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 41, "text": "Ben, how old were you when this happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, my mother and Leonard were very close. My mother loved him. He loved her. And I think she just didn't want to see the end of the marriage. She was afraid that she'd lose him completely. I do"}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 42, "text": "Were you afraid of him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was 6."}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 43, "text": "That last time, when your mother had two dislocated ribs and one fractured, did you know the extent of her injuries then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was afraid of what I was seeing."}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 44, "text": "Wow. What were the odds that a 6-year-old would be able to break up that fight?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that was the worst one. That was the one - that was the only one where I had tried to break it up, like, really, like, all right, enough. And then I had kind of just gotten tossed what felt abou"}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 45, "text": "So, Ellen, after you left your husband, you were the single mother of three young boys. What were their ages?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It - you know, at that point, I wasn't so much about the odds as just having - had seen enough. And also, to be really clear, I had - much to the frustration at the time of a lot of my family - I did "}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 46, "text": "OK, that's hard. You were supporting yourself. And also, your children were biracial, and you were living in a predominantly white area.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Six, 4 and 2."}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 47, "text": "Right. So you were Black, is what you're saying.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And let's also be clear about that. Biracial didn't come into fashion until maybe, like, 2003. Like, Obama's the first Black president, you know what I mean? I mean, it's like, biracial is this wonder"}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 48, "text": "Yeah", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, yeah. Let's just - pardon the pun, but let's call a spade a spade here."}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 49, "text": ". Yeah. So, Ellen, what did that mean for you? Because that - you know, single mother, three Black children, white neighborhood. What were some of the things you were up against as a mother?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, yeah. Let's just - pardon the pun, but let's call a spade a spade here."}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 50, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, I have two guests - Ellen Harper and Ben Harper. Ellen is the author of the new memoir \"Always A Song: Singers, Songwriter, Sinners, And Saints - My Story Of The Folk Music Revival.\" Her son Ben is a Grammy Award-winning singer, songwriter and guitarist. We'll be right back after this break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, as a single mother, there's plenty of challenges anyway, aside from the fact of not having any money or very much money. I did - the town, as much as it could make things difficult, could make t"}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 51, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Ellen Harper, author of the new memoir \"Always A Song: Singers, Songwriters, Sinners, And Saints - My Story Of The Folk Music Revival.\" In 1958, her parents founded the Folk Music Center in Claremont, Calif., which Ellen now runs. Her son Ben Harper, who is also with us, like his mother, grew up at the center. He's now a Grammy Award-winning singer, songwriter and guitarist. He wrote the foreword to her new memoir. Ben, what are some of the things that you felt you were up against as a Black boy growing up in a white community?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, as a single mother, there's plenty of challenges anyway, aside from the fact of not having any money or very much money. I did - the town, as much as it could make things difficult, could make t"}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 52, "text": "And you were seen not as biracial but as Black. So did you have a Black community outside of the one friend that you mentioned? And I'm wondering, too, if you know, like, books and music helped you find at least, like, an intellectual community and a musical community, even if they weren't physically with you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it was just always on the plate. It was always out in front of you. It was always - there was a couple of us, and we were friends. You know, from the whispers to the screams, I mean, it was alwa"}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 53, "text": "Ellen, how did you try to protect them from racism?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Terry, once you get into junior high and high school, you are no longer at liberty to decide where you want to be because you are placed by class, culture, creed and race the minute you walk on "}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 54, "text": "I want to end with another song. And this is another duet that you recorded from the album of duets that you recorded in 2013 called \"Childhood Home\" that was released in 2014. Ben, you decided you wanted to do an album of duets with your mother. And this album was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But also, Mom, important to note, you always - you provided us black role models on a regular basis, whether it be Bob Marley, Sam Cooke, Otis Redding, Malcolm X, Martin Luther King. And, Terry, that "}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 55, "text": "...The result. This is your song I want to play, \"Born To Love You.\" Can you tell us about writing it before we hear it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 56, "text": "It's a great song. Listen. I want to thank you both so much. You know, there are many takeaways from your book, Ellen, but one of the takeaways from the book and I think from this interview is that you both are part of a remarkable family and that you are both remarkable. Thank you so much for sharing some of your stories with us. Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it was one of the songs that came through in one swoop, went straight to the piano. And it was one of the songs, when I wrote it, I knew immediately where it was going to go, or I knew - I hoped"}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 57, "text": "That was Ellen Harper and her son Ben Harper from their album \"Childhood Home.\" Ellen is the author of the new memoir, \"Always A Song.\" Ben wrote the foreword. When you think of the mob, you probably think of things like \"The Godfather.\" But as Russell Shorto knows, there were also mob families in small cities all over America. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, he'll talk about his new memoir, \"Smalltime,\" about his grandfather, a mob boss in Johnstown, Pa. The story involves rackets, political payoffs and the unsolved murder of a bookie. I hope you'll join us. FRESH AIR'S executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineers is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Kayla Lattimore. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Some come in with a burden."}
{"id": "962774149", "date": "2021-02-01", "guest": "Ben Harper", "title": "Ben Harper And Mom Ellen Reflect On A Lifetime Immersed In A Folk Music 'Wonderland'", "question_index": 58, "text": "E", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Some come in with a burden."}
{"id": "964019745", "date": "2021-02-05", "guest": "Dusty Springfield", "title": "Dusty Springfield's Manager/Biographer Describes Singer's Dance With 'Demons'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Yeah, it was kind of like \"American Bandstand,\" but with fashion and more interviews and things like that", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a chaotic show which went out every week on Associated-Rediffusion television, which was the independent channel, and it was subtitled The Weekend Starts Here. And we were a mixture of music, f"}
{"id": "964019745", "date": "2021-02-05", "guest": "Dusty Springfield", "title": "Dusty Springfield's Manager/Biographer Describes Singer's Dance With 'Demons'", "question_index": 1, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a chaotic show which went out every week on Associated-Rediffusion television, which was the independent channel, and it was subtitled The Weekend Starts Here. And we were a mixture of music, f"}
{"id": "964019745", "date": "2021-02-05", "guest": "Dusty Springfield", "title": "Dusty Springfield's Manager/Biographer Describes Singer's Dance With 'Demons'", "question_index": 2, "text": "I mean, it's amazing. Like, in the early days of \"Ready Steady Go!,\" you know, The Beatles would come on, and then Ringo would dance in the audience with the other dancers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, exactly. That's exactly what it was."}
{"id": "964019745", "date": "2021-02-05", "guest": "Dusty Springfield", "title": "Dusty Springfield's Manager/Biographer Describes Singer's Dance With 'Demons'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Right. Dusty Springfield is really an extraordinary singer. And, you know, I grew up listening to her records, and, you know, I always liked her. But it was as an adult that I could really appreciate what a truly good singer she is. What struck you about her singing when you were auditioning people for \"Ready Steady Go!\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, exactly, which, you know, was amazing because they were huge at the time."}
{"id": "964019745", "date": "2021-02-05", "guest": "Dusty Springfield", "title": "Dusty Springfield's Manager/Biographer Describes Singer's Dance With 'Demons'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Her first hit, \"I Only Want To Be With You,\" came out in 1964 and debuted on \"Ready Steady Go!,\" and this was while you were producing the program. What did you think of the record then? Did you think that was the right choice for her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She had a sound. And there are very few people that have a real sound to their voice. And Dusty's just one of those lucky ones that, you know, she's recognizable anywhere. She had an impeccable choice"}
{"id": "964019745", "date": "2021-02-05", "guest": "Dusty Springfield", "title": "Dusty Springfield's Manager/Biographer Describes Singer's Dance With 'Demons'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Why don't we hear it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, absolutely. It was a wonderful song and a great way to launch her."}
{"id": "964019745", "date": "2021-02-05", "guest": "Dusty Springfield", "title": "Dusty Springfield's Manager/Biographer Describes Singer's Dance With 'Demons'", "question_index": 6, "text": "That's Dusty Springfield's first hit, \"I Only Want To Be With You.\" My guest is Vicki Wickham, who co-wrote \"Dancing With Demons: The Authorized Biography Of Dusty Springfield.\" You actually co-wrote one of Dusty Springfield's songs, \"You Don't Have To Say You Love Me,\" which was released in 1966. How did you come to co-write the song? And tell us if there's a story behind it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I don't know what it is that makes me love you so. I only know I never want to let you go. 'Cause you started something. Can't you see that ever since we met you've had a hold on me? It happ"}
{"id": "964019745", "date": "2021-02-05", "guest": "Dusty Springfield", "title": "Dusty Springfield's Manager/Biographer Describes Singer's Dance With 'Demons'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Why did you think they were so bad, the lyrics?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there is. Dusty had been at the Sanremo Song Festival and came back with an Italian song. But each time she was going to record, she'd say, I must write lyrics to it. She never did, so she never"}
{"id": "964019745", "date": "2021-02-05", "guest": "Dusty Springfield", "title": "Dusty Springfield's Manager/Biographer Describes Singer's Dance With 'Demons'", "question_index": 8, "text": "So - well, why don't we hear the song, and we'll let everybody judge what they think of the lyrics?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They're really inane. And if you look at the lyrics, I think the word left is in there about six times. Although, you know, when you become familiar with them, you think, OK, they're not - perhaps not"}
{"id": "964019745", "date": "2021-02-05", "guest": "Dusty Springfield", "title": "Dusty Springfield's Manager/Biographer Describes Singer's Dance With 'Demons'", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They're really inane. And if you look at the lyrics, I think the word left is in there about six times. Although, you know, when you become familiar with them, you think, OK, they're not - perhaps not"}
{"id": "964019745", "date": "2021-02-05", "guest": "Dusty Springfield", "title": "Dusty Springfield's Manager/Biographer Describes Singer's Dance With 'Demons'", "question_index": 10, "text": "It certainly did well for her and for you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "964019745", "date": "2021-02-05", "guest": "Dusty Springfield", "title": "Dusty Springfield's Manager/Biographer Describes Singer's Dance With 'Demons'", "question_index": 11, "text": "That's \"You Don't Have To Say You Love Me,\" a 1966 hit by Dusty Springfield. My guest, Vicki Wickham, co-wrote the lyrics. She also co-wrote Dusty Springfield's biography called \"Dancing With Demons.\" Now, as you were getting to know Dusty Springfield, something that you learned about her was that she was a lesbian. And this was at a time when virtually no performers were really out of the closet, certainly not in pop music. How did you find out about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing)"}
{"id": "964019745", "date": "2021-02-05", "guest": "Dusty Springfield", "title": "Dusty Springfield's Manager/Biographer Describes Singer's Dance With 'Demons'", "question_index": 12, "text": "And are you gay, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, because we were friends. So we were hanging out together. We, you know, had some of the same friends. We need to have our own friends. And, you know, obviously, you know, you know what your frie"}
{"id": "964019745", "date": "2021-02-05", "guest": "Dusty Springfield", "title": "Dusty Springfield's Manager/Biographer Describes Singer's Dance With 'Demons'", "question_index": 13, "text": "Did you have to keep each other's secrets? Did it need to be as big a secret for you as it was for her because you weren't a performer and could, maybe, afford to be a little more open?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Absolutely."}
{"id": "964019745", "date": "2021-02-05", "guest": "Dusty Springfield", "title": "Dusty Springfield's Manager/Biographer Describes Singer's Dance With 'Demons'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Dusty Springfield was from a Catholic family. She went to convent school. Did she feel guilty about her own sexual orientation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, exactly. For me, it was never a problem because I wasn't in the public eye. And, you know, I was always openly gay. And it was absolutely fine. But for somebody like Dusty, it did matter. I mean"}
{"id": "964019745", "date": "2021-02-05", "guest": "Dusty Springfield", "title": "Dusty Springfield's Manager/Biographer Describes Singer's Dance With 'Demons'", "question_index": 15, "text": "As a producer of \"Ready, Steady, Go!\" were you ever concerned that if she was outed, it would be a problem for the program?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, she did. She felt guilty about a lot of things. And I think that, you know, the Catholic faith, throughout her entire life, always was a burden to her. And that was a large part of what the big p"}
{"id": "964019745", "date": "2021-02-05", "guest": "Dusty Springfield", "title": "Dusty Springfield's Manager/Biographer Describes Singer's Dance With 'Demons'", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not remotely. And I don't think it would have been. The only problem we ever had with \"Ready, Steady\" was when Donovan was busted for pot. And there was a whole discussion about whether we should "}
{"id": "964019745", "date": "2021-02-05", "guest": "Dusty Springfield", "title": "Dusty Springfield's Manager/Biographer Describes Singer's Dance With 'Demons'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Dusty Springfield really had a look in the '60s when she became a star. Why don't you describe the kind of fashion she wore, how she did her eyes, her hairdos?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2002 interview with Vicki Wickham, the longtime friend and manager, as well as biographer, of singer Dusty Springfield. A new anthology collects Springfiel"}
{"id": "964019745", "date": "2021-02-05", "guest": "Dusty Springfield", "title": "Dusty Springfield's Manager/Biographer Describes Singer's Dance With 'Demons'", "question_index": 18, "text": "Dusty Springfield recorded several Burt Bacharach, Hal David songs, such as \"I Just Don't Know What To Do With Myself,\" \"Wishin' And Hopin',\" \"The Look Of Love.\" How did she start to do Bacharach?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Dusty had this huge bouffant hairdo, which required a lot of back combing and a lot of spray, which we would sometimes laugh and say that she was responsible alone for the ozone layer. She also wore a"}
{"id": "964019745", "date": "2021-02-05", "guest": "Dusty Springfield", "title": "Dusty Springfield's Manager/Biographer Describes Singer's Dance With 'Demons'", "question_index": 19, "text": "And she liked the songs and wanted to start recording them herself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Dusty used to listen to a lot of demos from America. Publishers would send her demos. And, of course, she was going backwards and forwards to America to appear on shows, package shows, like the ones a"}
{"id": "964019745", "date": "2021-02-05", "guest": "Dusty Springfield", "title": "Dusty Springfield's Manager/Biographer Describes Singer's Dance With 'Demons'", "question_index": 20, "text": "So did she get in touch with Bacharach?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Loved the songs, yes."}
{"id": "964019745", "date": "2021-02-05", "guest": "Dusty Springfield", "title": "Dusty Springfield's Manager/Biographer Describes Singer's Dance With 'Demons'", "question_index": 21, "text": "What do you think of her recording of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And I think that Burt, I mean, feels that her version of \"Look Of Love\" is still the ultimate."}
{"id": "964019745", "date": "2021-02-05", "guest": "Dusty Springfield", "title": "Dusty Springfield's Manager/Biographer Describes Singer's Dance With 'Demons'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Why don't we hear it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's wonderful. I think it captures every essence of the song. It's beautiful."}
{"id": "964019745", "date": "2021-02-05", "guest": "Dusty Springfield", "title": "Dusty Springfield's Manager/Biographer Describes Singer's Dance With 'Demons'", "question_index": 23, "text": "That's Dusty Springfield singing \"The Look Of Love,\" which was from the film \"Casino Royale\" and was another big hit for her. The song was by Bacharach and David. In the new authorized biography of Dusty Springfield, you write about her depressions. You say she was diagnosed as manic depressive. And her depressions were sometimes very severe. What was she like on either end of her mood swings?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) The look of love is in your eyes, the look your heart can't disguise. The look of love is saying so much more than just words could ever say. And what my heart has heard, well, it takes my b"}
{"id": "964019745", "date": "2021-02-05", "guest": "Dusty Springfield", "title": "Dusty Springfield's Manager/Biographer Describes Singer's Dance With 'Demons'", "question_index": 24, "text": "She also mutilated herself. She cut on her arms and legs. I think much more is known about that kind of self-mutilation now than was known then. It seems other more common or at least more publicly discussed. How did she and her doctors deal with it? And I don't know whether this was mostly in the 1960s or '70s.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She could go into the blackest moods ever and very irrational in terms of nothing was right, nothing was good enough, including herself - just really deep depressions, which would last sometimes for m"}
{"id": "964019745", "date": "2021-02-05", "guest": "Dusty Springfield", "title": "Dusty Springfield's Manager/Biographer Describes Singer's Dance With 'Demons'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Would the scars or the cuts show when she wore the kind of clothes she liked to wear?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was both. At the time, you're right, I mean, not that much was known about it. And the biggest thing that I think was a mistake - and, I mean, she felt the same way - she never found any help for i"}
{"id": "964019745", "date": "2021-02-05", "guest": "Dusty Springfield", "title": "Dusty Springfield's Manager/Biographer Describes Singer's Dance With 'Demons'", "question_index": 26, "text": "You know, in other words, was she in risk of performing with cuts and scars showing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She'd always wear..."}
{"id": "964019745", "date": "2021-02-05", "guest": "Dusty Springfield", "title": "Dusty Springfield's Manager/Biographer Describes Singer's Dance With 'Demons'", "question_index": 27, "text": "And that's why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Absolutely. And if you notice, she almost always, in fact, always would wear long sleeves."}
{"id": "964019745", "date": "2021-02-05", "guest": "Dusty Springfield", "title": "Dusty Springfield's Manager/Biographer Describes Singer's Dance With 'Demons'", "question_index": 28, "text": "Would the depression go away when she was onstage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "964019745", "date": "2021-02-05", "guest": "Dusty Springfield", "title": "Dusty Springfield's Manager/Biographer Describes Singer's Dance With 'Demons'", "question_index": 29, "text": "Did you ever have to convince her to get onstage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's interesting you should say that. Absolutely. Dusty, as much as she hated getting onstage, was scared stiff about it, once she got onstage was, A, the true professional, was absolutely wonderful a"}
{"id": "964019745", "date": "2021-02-05", "guest": "Dusty Springfield", "title": "Dusty Springfield's Manager/Biographer Describes Singer's Dance With 'Demons'", "question_index": 30, "text": "Do you think that she would forget how much she enjoyed being onstage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Constantly. It was always an uphill battle. I mean, as a manager, it really was very depressing sometimes that you'd have these wonderful offers. And I'd call her up. And I'd say, OK, you know, this i"}
{"id": "964019745", "date": "2021-02-05", "guest": "Dusty Springfield", "title": "Dusty Springfield's Manager/Biographer Describes Singer's Dance With 'Demons'", "question_index": 31, "text": "When did Dusty Springfield find out that she had cancer?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's 2002 interview with Vicki Wickham. She was the longtime friend of singer Dusty Springfield, as well as her manager"}
{"id": "964019745", "date": "2021-02-05", "guest": "Dusty Springfield", "title": "Dusty Springfield's Manager/Biographer Describes Singer's Dance With 'Demons'", "question_index": 32, "text": "And so she took more aggressive chemo after that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She called me up one day and said - the end of the conversation, sort of very casually said, did I tell you that I found a lump in my breast? Which I said, no, and what did your doctor say? To which s"}
{"id": "964019745", "date": "2021-02-05", "guest": "Dusty Springfield", "title": "Dusty Springfield's Manager/Biographer Describes Singer's Dance With 'Demons'", "question_index": 33, "text": "How did she handle the news that the cancer had come back?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They - she did. And also, Dusty was a very well-informed person, and what she didn't know, she certainly would find out. She went to every possible source on the, you know, Internet, friends, etc., et"}
{"id": "964019745", "date": "2021-02-05", "guest": "Dusty Springfield", "title": "Dusty Springfield's Manager/Biographer Describes Singer's Dance With 'Demons'", "question_index": 34, "text": "Did she ever, by the way, come out as a lesbian?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Scared as hell, as we all would be, but absolutely determined that she would beat it. I mean, she felt that she'd beaten it before. She felt that she'd, basically, in life, had many close brushes with"}
{"id": "964019745", "date": "2021-02-05", "guest": "Dusty Springfield", "title": "Dusty Springfield's Manager/Biographer Describes Singer's Dance With 'Demons'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Even when she knew she was dying?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "964019745", "date": "2021-02-05", "guest": "Dusty Springfield", "title": "Dusty Springfield's Manager/Biographer Describes Singer's Dance With 'Demons'", "question_index": 36, "text": "Did she wish, do you think, that she could have been more honest about herself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. There was no - you know, in a way, there was sort of no interest in her from that point of view at that stage. The papers were interested in the cancer, and it never really cropped up."}
{"id": "964019745", "date": "2021-02-05", "guest": "Dusty Springfield", "title": "Dusty Springfield's Manager/Biographer Describes Singer's Dance With 'Demons'", "question_index": 37, "text": "You were at her funeral when she died?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, because she was a very outgoing person. She - I mean, she wasn't a secretive person at all. I'm quite sure that she wished she could have been."}
{"id": "964019745", "date": "2021-02-05", "guest": "Dusty Springfield", "title": "Dusty Springfield's Manager/Biographer Describes Singer's Dance With 'Demons'", "question_index": 38, "text": "What was the funeral like? And was there any of her music that was played there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "964019745", "date": "2021-02-05", "guest": "Dusty Springfield", "title": "Dusty Springfield's Manager/Biographer Describes Singer's Dance With 'Demons'", "question_index": 39, "text": "It must have been hard for you to produce her funeral after having worked with her for so many years.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "that the coffin gets the applause. She would have definitely been chuffed and had a giggle."}
{"id": "966934499", "date": "2021-02-12", "guest": "Michael Angarano", "title": "Remembering 'Sound Of Music' Star Christopher Plummer", "question_index": 0, "text": "Christopher Plummer, welcome to FRESH AIR. Would you describe your character in \"Man In The Chair\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Flash Madden) You guess? The man in the chair can't ever be a guesser. He's got to make decisions, you know, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. He's got to know what he's doing. Frank Capra says, if yo"}
{"id": "966934499", "date": "2021-02-12", "guest": "Michael Angarano", "title": "Remembering 'Sound Of Music' Star Christopher Plummer", "question_index": 1, "text": "Your character in \"Man In The Chair\" has grown bitter with age, whereas it seems to me in your life, you just keep getting better roles. You've been in a lot of interesting movies in the past few years.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I think he was a wonderful old drunk, which I was for many years myself. So research was not a problem in that case. But he also - he was a gaffer on \"Citizen Kane,\" but he spends most of his time"}
{"id": "966934499", "date": "2021-02-12", "guest": "Michael Angarano", "title": "Remembering 'Sound Of Music' Star Christopher Plummer", "question_index": 2, "text": "Is there any movie that you see as like a turning point in your career?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes, I have, which is great because once I hit the character actor level, the scripts started to improve as they came my way."}
{"id": "966934499", "date": "2021-02-12", "guest": "Michael Angarano", "title": "Remembering 'Sound Of Music' Star Christopher Plummer", "question_index": 3, "text": "Well, I'm glad that you mentioned \"The Insider,\" because we just happen to have a clip from it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I think \"The Insider\" was. I mean, I spent my life on the stage. And I've done tons of film, both in England, Europe and here. But another level started to be reached after \"The Insider,\" and the"}
{"id": "966934499", "date": "2021-02-12", "guest": "Michael Angarano", "title": "Remembering 'Sound Of Music' Star Christopher Plummer", "question_index": 4, "text": "And this film, for anyone who hasn't seen it, it's about - the insider is played by Russell Crowe. He's a whistleblower who had worked as a scientist at a tobacco company. And he knows all the secrets about the poisonous additives and all that stuff. So he's talking to \"60 Minutes\" about it. But this is the very beginning of the story in which your producer, Lowell Bergman, played by Al Pacino, has been setting up an interview for you with an Islamic extremist. And at this point, you step in as Mike Wallace to actually ask the questions. And you want to create the rules. But, of course, the Islamic group wants to create the rules. So here's how the interview gets started.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, whoop (ph)."}
{"id": "966934499", "date": "2021-02-12", "guest": "Michael Angarano", "title": "Remembering 'Sound Of Music' Star Christopher Plummer", "question_index": 5, "text": "UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character, non-English language spoken). UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character) He says you must not sit so close.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, whoop (ph)."}
{"id": "966934499", "date": "2021-02-12", "guest": "Michael Angarano", "title": "Remembering 'Sound Of Music' Star Christopher Plummer", "question_index": 6, "text": "That's my guest, Christopher Plummer, in a scene from \"The Insider.\" How did you get the part in \"The \"Insider,\" which you say, you know, was a turning point in your film career?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Mike Wallace) Good. Well, ask him if Arabic is his second language. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character, non-English language spoken)."}
{"id": "966934499", "date": "2021-02-12", "guest": "Michael Angarano", "title": "Remembering 'Sound Of Music' Star Christopher Plummer", "question_index": 7, "text": "One more clip for you. And this this one is inevitable", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they sent me the script. I'm sure they sent it to others as well. But I got it. And I met Michael and Al. And I was in. It was just wonderful."}
{"id": "966934499", "date": "2021-02-12", "guest": "Michael Angarano", "title": "Remembering 'Sound Of Music' Star Christopher Plummer", "question_index": 8, "text": ". So the movie that made you famous, \"The Sound Of Music,\" 1965, in which you were Captain Von Trapp, a widow who expects his children to behave as if they were in the military until you get a new governess played by, of course, Julie Andrews. And this is the scene in which she comes to your door. You meet her for the first time. And you're trying to evaluate her and also give her directions on how to handle the kids.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they sent me the script. I'm sure they sent it to others as well. But I got it. And I met Michael and Al. And I was in. It was just wonderful."}
{"id": "966934499", "date": "2021-02-12", "guest": "Michael Angarano", "title": "Remembering 'Sound Of Music' Star Christopher Plummer", "question_index": 9, "text": "Christopher Plummer and Julie Andrews in a scene from \"The Sound Of Music.\" People have such strong feelings about that movie, they either love it, or they hate it and they think it's really insipid. Where do you stand on this issue of our time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Maria) Yes, sir."}
{"id": "966934499", "date": "2021-02-12", "guest": "Michael Angarano", "title": "Remembering 'Sound Of Music' Star Christopher Plummer", "question_index": 10, "text": "You know, in your movies, you have such good diction, such proper diction in some of your roles. I almost thought you were from England. You're from Canada. Is the diction a result of theater training? Is it a class thing?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview with actor Christopher Plummer, recorded in 2007. Plummer died last Friday at the age of 91."}
{"id": "966934499", "date": "2021-02-12", "guest": "Michael Angarano", "title": "Remembering 'Sound Of Music' Star Christopher Plummer", "question_index": 11, "text": "Now, you were a member of two very famous British theatre groups, the National Theatre and the Royal Shakespeare Company. What years were you in England?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it's to do with my family, who spoke well. I mean, we speak well in Canada, as well as they do in Great Britain, may I remind you. And my family were educated, well-read. And they spoke beautiful "}
{"id": "966934499", "date": "2021-02-12", "guest": "Michael Angarano", "title": "Remembering 'Sound Of Music' Star Christopher Plummer", "question_index": 12, "text": "Oh, OK. So, I mean, you worked in a period when the method became very popular in the United States.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I lived in England from 1961, right through into almost the mid 70s. So about 15 years, yeah."}
{"id": "966934499", "date": "2021-02-12", "guest": "Michael Angarano", "title": "Remembering 'Sound Of Music' Star Christopher Plummer", "question_index": 13, "text": "But you were also doing classical theater.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "966934499", "date": "2021-02-12", "guest": "Michael Angarano", "title": "Remembering 'Sound Of Music' Star Christopher Plummer", "question_index": 14, "text": "So you were doing classical theater and movies in which a lot of the actors were into the method. Did you find yourself going back and forth between more of a classical approach and more of a method approach to acting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "966934499", "date": "2021-02-12", "guest": "Michael Angarano", "title": "Remembering 'Sound Of Music' Star Christopher Plummer", "question_index": 15, "text": "Now, early in your screen career, you were actually on television. And you did a lot of the early TV shows...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think both. I think that one helped the other. I'm so glad that - I'm so glad I was Canadian, in a way, because the Canadian can take the best of the British and the best of the American schoo"}
{"id": "966934499", "date": "2021-02-12", "guest": "Michael Angarano", "title": "Remembering 'Sound Of Music' Star Christopher Plummer", "question_index": 16, "text": "Like \"General Electric Theater\" and \"Kraft Theatre\" and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, the Golden Age of Television, yes, in New York."}
{"id": "966934499", "date": "2021-02-12", "guest": "Michael Angarano", "title": "Remembering 'Sound Of Music' Star Christopher Plummer", "question_index": 17, "text": "And a lot of those were live - right? - or all of them were live.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, all of them. I did them all. Yeah."}
{"id": "966934499", "date": "2021-02-12", "guest": "Michael Angarano", "title": "Remembering 'Sound Of Music' Star Christopher Plummer", "question_index": 18, "text": "You have any really good stories about doing live drama on television in the '50s?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All of them were live. Tape didn't come in until the late '50s, I don't think."}
{"id": "966934499", "date": "2021-02-12", "guest": "Michael Angarano", "title": "Remembering 'Sound Of Music' Star Christopher Plummer", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah. I can't remember the name of the show, but Martin Manulis was the producer and director. And we were doing this time miling (ph) the story of Crown Prince Rudolf of Habsburg and his suicid"}
{"id": "966934499", "date": "2021-02-12", "guest": "Michael Angarano", "title": "Remembering 'Sound Of Music' Star Christopher Plummer", "question_index": 20, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And Manulis just screamed at me. He said, what the hell are you - after it was over - what the hell did you come in there for? I said, you got goddamn lucky I came in at all."}
{"id": "966934499", "date": "2021-02-12", "guest": "Michael Angarano", "title": "Remembering 'Sound Of Music' Star Christopher Plummer", "question_index": 21, "text": "So what'd you do to cover it up - anything?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Don't speak to me like that - after spending hours looking for this freaking entrance."}
{"id": "966934499", "date": "2021-02-12", "guest": "Michael Angarano", "title": "Remembering 'Sound Of Music' Star Christopher Plummer", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. We just valiantly went on. But her face was something extraordinary."}
{"id": "966934499", "date": "2021-02-12", "guest": "Michael Angarano", "title": "Remembering 'Sound Of Music' Star Christopher Plummer", "question_index": 23, "text": "That sounds like such a nightmare, though. You know, it's, like, live TV, and you can't find the entrance to the stage.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She didn't dream I was going to come through that thing. But..."}
{"id": "966934499", "date": "2021-02-12", "guest": "Michael Angarano", "title": "Remembering 'Sound Of Music' Star Christopher Plummer", "question_index": 24, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But they were so great. There were only four of them, you know, four cameras. And then we never knew our lines. So then when we forgot a line, we wink at the cameraman, and the cameraman would then "}
{"id": "966934499", "date": "2021-02-12", "guest": "Michael Angarano", "title": "Remembering 'Sound Of Music' Star Christopher Plummer", "question_index": 25, "text": "Did stuff like that make you more fearless on stage because you'd experienced such...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But it was beautiful. They'd mastered it so smoothly, these cameramen. They were heroes."}
{"id": "966934499", "date": "2021-02-12", "guest": "Michael Angarano", "title": "Remembering 'Sound Of Music' Star Christopher Plummer", "question_index": 26, "text": "...Traumatic things on TV?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "966934499", "date": "2021-02-12", "guest": "Michael Angarano", "title": "Remembering 'Sound Of Music' Star Christopher Plummer", "question_index": 27, "text": "Now, you've performed Shakespeare as a young man. You've performed Shakespeare as an older man, most recently as King Lear on Broadway. Does Shakespeare read differently to you now than it did when you were young? Are there things you see in it now that you didn't then or interpretations that are different?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, of course. If you put yourself in disaster, that's the best training of all; isn't it? You know how to get yourself out of trouble. I've never been frightened on the stage, though. It's always -"}
{"id": "966934499", "date": "2021-02-12", "guest": "Michael Angarano", "title": "Remembering 'Sound Of Music' Star Christopher Plummer", "question_index": 28, "text": "So - yeah, go ahead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, of course there are. But the poet himself remains as magical and as extraordinary and as simple and as human as he did when I was young because that's what strikes you right away - is the humani"}
{"id": "966934499", "date": "2021-02-12", "guest": "Michael Angarano", "title": "Remembering 'Sound Of Music' Star Christopher Plummer", "question_index": 29, "text": "I never think of Shakespeare as being simple.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You need to be much older to understand the depths of a part like that."}
{"id": "966934499", "date": "2021-02-12", "guest": "Michael Angarano", "title": "Remembering 'Sound Of Music' Star Christopher Plummer", "question_index": 30, "text": "Give me an example.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. I mean, oh, no. Come on. When he picks the great moments, the key moments in plays, his language becomes terribly simple. You notice that."}
{"id": "966934499", "date": "2021-02-12", "guest": "Michael Angarano", "title": "Remembering 'Sound Of Music' Star Christopher Plummer", "question_index": 31, "text": "You said at the beginning of the interview - the character that you play in your new movie, \"Man In The Chair\" - that you used to drink a lot.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, nothing could be simpler than, the rest is silence. That's as modern a statement as there ever was."}
{"id": "966934499", "date": "2021-02-12", "guest": "Michael Angarano", "title": "Remembering 'Sound Of Music' Star Christopher Plummer", "question_index": 32, "text": "That was a very enthusiastic yes. Was this mostly, like, in the 1950s and '60s?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes."}
{"id": "966934499", "date": "2021-02-12", "guest": "Michael Angarano", "title": "Remembering 'Sound Of Music' Star Christopher Plummer", "question_index": 33, "text": "Is it harder to do \"Hamlet\" with a hangover?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that was the drinking era. Then the '60s sort of became more of a drug era; didn't it? And then the '70s were so boring I can't remember them. But the '50s was a very communicative era. Everybod"}
{"id": "966934499", "date": "2021-02-12", "guest": "Michael Angarano", "title": "Remembering 'Sound Of Music' Star Christopher Plummer", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terrible. It's just a nightmare. And I have done it with a hangover, yeah. It was very fast, though. We did it very fast. We got off very quickly."}
{"id": "966934499", "date": "2021-02-12", "guest": "Michael Angarano", "title": "Remembering 'Sound Of Music' Star Christopher Plummer", "question_index": 35, "text": "What would you do to, like, make yourself feel better before having to do \"Hamlet\" or any kind of heavy lifting with a hangover?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was no longer a 3-1/2-hour, four-hour play. It was something like two hours."}
{"id": "966934499", "date": "2021-02-12", "guest": "Michael Angarano", "title": "Remembering 'Sound Of Music' Star Christopher Plummer", "question_index": 36, "text": "And it wouldn't - you wouldn't forget your lines with that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Fernet-Branca was my favorite pick-me-up - Fernet-Branca laced with a little creme de menthe. It goes down like silk, and, boy, does it wake you up. If you have another one, if you have two or three F"}
{"id": "966934499", "date": "2021-02-12", "guest": "Michael Angarano", "title": "Remembering 'Sound Of Music' Star Christopher Plummer", "question_index": 37, "text": "Well, Christopher Plummer, a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Somehow, \"Hamlet\" remained intact in my memory. So - it was such a glorious play that I wouldn't insult it by forgetting it."}
{"id": "967332780", "date": "2021-02-15", "guest": "Cloris Leachman", "title": "Remembering TV And Film Star Cloris Leachman", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're going to remember actress Cloris Leachman. She died last month at the age of 94. She co-starred in two Mel Brooks films, \"High Anxiety\" and \"Young Frankenstein.\" Here she is in Young Frankenstein as Frau Blucher, with Gene Wilder as Dr. Frankenstein.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "967332780", "date": "2021-02-15", "guest": "Cloris Leachman", "title": "Remembering TV And Film Star Cloris Leachman", "question_index": 1, "text": "Cloris Leachman won an Oscar for her performance in the 1971 film \"The Last Picture Show.\" On television, she co-starred on \"The Mary Tyler Moore Show\" as Mary's neighbor and landlady, Phyllis, which led to her own spinoff series, \"Phyllis,\" in 1975. She appeared on many primetime TV shows, was nominated for 22 Emmys and won eight. I had the chance to interview her in 2009.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Dr. Frankenstein) After you, Frau Blucher."}
{"id": "967332780", "date": "2021-02-15", "guest": "Cloris Leachman", "title": "Remembering TV And Film Star Cloris Leachman", "question_index": 2, "text": "I want to talk about some of your movies. You've made two or three movies with Mel Brooks. The first was \"Young Frankenstein,\" in which you played Frau Blucher.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Dr. Frankenstein) After you, Frau Blucher."}
{"id": "967332780", "date": "2021-02-15", "guest": "Cloris Leachman", "title": "Remembering TV And Film Star Cloris Leachman", "question_index": 3, "text": "And just - I want to play a scene from this. Just to set it up, Gene Wilder plays Dr. Frederick Frankenstein, who is the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Blucher."}
{"id": "967332780", "date": "2021-02-15", "guest": "Cloris Leachman", "title": "Remembering TV And Film Star Cloris Leachman", "question_index": 4, "text": "Frankenstein", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Frankenstein."}
{"id": "967332780", "date": "2021-02-15", "guest": "Cloris Leachman", "title": "Remembering TV And Film Star Cloris Leachman", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Frankenstein."}
{"id": "967332780", "date": "2021-02-15", "guest": "Cloris Leachman", "title": "Remembering TV And Film Star Cloris Leachman", "question_index": 6, "text": "And he's the grandson of the famous mad scientist who created the monster. And then...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Igor."}
{"id": "967332780", "date": "2021-02-15", "guest": "Cloris Leachman", "title": "Remembering TV And Film Star Cloris Leachman", "question_index": 7, "text": "Then he learns he's inherited the Frankenstein estate, so he goes to the mansion in Transylvania. And your character, Frau Blucher, is one of the servants there, and she was in love with the mad scientist. And in this scene, Gene Wilder, the young Doctor Frankenstein, goes to the lab...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was my boyfriend."}
{"id": "967332780", "date": "2021-02-15", "guest": "Cloris Leachman", "title": "Remembering TV And Film Star Cloris Leachman", "question_index": 8, "text": "- With his two assistants, where he finds you releasing the monster from his restraints. Here's the scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Franken-shtune (ph)."}
{"id": "967332780", "date": "2021-02-15", "guest": "Cloris Leachman", "title": "Remembering TV And Film Star Cloris Leachman", "question_index": 9, "text": "That's my guest Cloris Leachman.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Frau Bulcher) Yes. Yes. Say it - he was my boyfriend."}
{"id": "967332780", "date": "2021-02-15", "guest": "Cloris Leachman", "title": "Remembering TV And Film Star Cloris Leachman", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, how did you figure out how to play Frau Blucher?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was."}
{"id": "967332780", "date": "2021-02-15", "guest": "Cloris Leachman", "title": "Remembering TV And Film Star Cloris Leachman", "question_index": 11, "text": "The running gag in \"Young Frankenstein\" is whenever anybody says Frau Blucher, the horses whinny.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". That's why it's so slow. But I said, I am Frau Blucher."}
{"id": "967332780", "date": "2021-02-15", "guest": "Cloris Leachman", "title": "Remembering TV And Film Star Cloris Leachman", "question_index": 12, "text": "So it's like, they're threatening the horses with a glue factory.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Blucher meant glue. I'm not sure that's true, but it sure is funny."}
{"id": "967332780", "date": "2021-02-15", "guest": "Cloris Leachman", "title": "Remembering TV And Film Star Cloris Leachman", "question_index": 13, "text": "So what did you learn about comedy working with Mel Brooks?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "967332780", "date": "2021-02-15", "guest": "Cloris Leachman", "title": "Remembering TV And Film Star Cloris Leachman", "question_index": 14, "text": "I want to play a scene from another Mel Brooks movie that you were in \"High Anxiety.\" I love this film. This is a parody of a lot of different Alfred Hitchcock films. And Mel Brooks plays a psychiatrist who's become the new director of the Institute for the Very, Very Nervous. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "967332780", "date": "2021-02-15", "guest": "Cloris Leachman", "title": "Remembering TV And Film Star Cloris Leachman", "question_index": 15, "text": "And you're the very severe Nurse Diesel.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Dr. Ashley felt that color has a great deal to do with the well-being of the emotionally disturbed."}
{"id": "967332780", "date": "2021-02-15", "guest": "Cloris Leachman", "title": "Remembering TV And Film Star Cloris Leachman", "question_index": 16, "text": "And in this scene, Mel Brooks, the new head of the institute, is in his room at the institute, and he hears screams coming from your room. And he's very concerned, so he knocks on your door. And you come out in a hooded terrycloth robe. Here's the scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Dr. Ashley felt that color has a great deal to do with the well-being of the emotionally disturbed."}
{"id": "967332780", "date": "2021-02-15", "guest": "Cloris Leachman", "title": "Remembering TV And Film Star Cloris Leachman", "question_index": 17, "text": "And as the scene continues, Nurse Diesel, played by my guest Cloris Leachman, goes back to her room, takes off her bathrobe. And underneath the robe, she's in full dominatrix regalia. She's wearing a policeman's hat and shirt, leather shorts, high leather boots. She opens her closet, and inside is Dr. Montague, played by Harvey Korman, hanging from chains in full bondage.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Dr. Thorndyke) Good night."}
{"id": "967332780", "date": "2021-02-15", "guest": "Cloris Leachman", "title": "Remembering TV And Film Star Cloris Leachman", "question_index": 18, "text": "That's such a funny scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Dr. Montague) Yes. Yes, I'm sorry. Yes. God, it feels so good."}
{"id": "967332780", "date": "2021-02-15", "guest": "Cloris Leachman", "title": "Remembering TV And Film Star Cloris Leachman", "question_index": 19, "text": "My guest Cloris Leachman with Harvey Korman and Mel Brooks' \"High Anxiety.\" It must have been so much fun to shoot that scene. Was it hard to get through it - I mean, to, like, open the door and see Harvey Korman hanging there", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Dr. Montague) Yes. Yes, I'm sorry. Yes. God, it feels so good."}
{"id": "967332780", "date": "2021-02-15", "guest": "Cloris Leachman", "title": "Remembering TV And Film Star Cloris Leachman", "question_index": 20, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Dr. Montague) Yes. Yes, I'm sorry. Yes. God, it feels so good."}
{"id": "967332780", "date": "2021-02-15", "guest": "Cloris Leachman", "title": "Remembering TV And Film Star Cloris Leachman", "question_index": 21, "text": "Grace Kelly?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no. We were all serious, just playing our parts. There's another scene that is so hilarious to me. I'm just sick that they had to cut it out. But Princess of Monaco, Princess Grace..."}
{"id": "967332780", "date": "2021-02-15", "guest": "Cloris Leachman", "title": "Remembering TV And Film Star Cloris Leachman", "question_index": 22, "text": "So he really took it out so as not to offend Grace Kelly?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- I go to my closet, open the door and hang up my hooded, you know, robe and make my way to my bed in these high heels. I throw myself on the bed on my back with my arms and legs out. And you hear (im"}
{"id": "967332780", "date": "2021-02-15", "guest": "Cloris Leachman", "title": "Remembering TV And Film Star Cloris Leachman", "question_index": 23, "text": "We're listening to my 2009 interview with Cloris Leachman. She died January 27. She was 94. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, she was a little rabbit. I don't know why he thought she wouldn't..."}
{"id": "967332780", "date": "2021-02-15", "guest": "Cloris Leachman", "title": "Remembering TV And Film Star Cloris Leachman", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're remembering actress Cloris Leachman. She died last month. She was 94. Leachman co-starred in the Mel Brooks films \"Young Frankenstein\" and \"High Anxiety.\" She co-starred in the TV series \"The Mary Tyler Moore Show\" and starred in its spinoff \"Phyllis.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, she was a little rabbit. I don't know why he thought she wouldn't..."}
{"id": "967332780", "date": "2021-02-15", "guest": "Cloris Leachman", "title": "Remembering TV And Film Star Cloris Leachman", "question_index": 25, "text": "Now, we've been focusing on your comedic roles, but you won an Oscar for best supporting actress for a dramatic role in the movie \"The Last Picture Show,\" which is - what? - from 1971. Is that 1971? And in this, you play a kind of depressed, middle-aged housewife who's neglected by her husband, who's the high school basketball coach and maybe gay. And she wants to experience love and have an affair. She has an affair with a teenager played by Timothy Bottoms, but he's been getting involved with a girl his age and neglecting you. And in this scene, he comes to your door and asks for a cup of coffee. You're in your bathrobe. You pour the coffee with very shaky hands and then throw the cup against the wall.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, she was a little rabbit. I don't know why he thought she wouldn't..."}
{"id": "967332780", "date": "2021-02-15", "guest": "Cloris Leachman", "title": "Remembering TV And Film Star Cloris Leachman", "question_index": 26, "text": "And that's Cloris Leachman in a scene from \"The Last Picture Show.\" Was it at all awkward to be starring in that film opposite a teenager?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Ruth Popper) Three months I've been apologizing to you without you even being here. I haven't done anything wrong. Why can't I quit apologizing? You're the one ought to be sorry. I wouldn't still "}
{"id": "967332780", "date": "2021-02-15", "guest": "Cloris Leachman", "title": "Remembering TV And Film Star Cloris Leachman", "question_index": 27, "text": "Did you talk about this kind of stuff before your shoot?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know? God, I was 45 years old."}
{"id": "967332780", "date": "2021-02-15", "guest": "Cloris Leachman", "title": "Remembering TV And Film Star Cloris Leachman", "question_index": 28, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No, no, no, not a word. But we went into the bedroom, the little room in the house, to do that scene. And he said, I ain't taking my clothes off for this scene."}
{"id": "967332780", "date": "2021-02-15", "guest": "Cloris Leachman", "title": "Remembering TV And Film Star Cloris Leachman", "question_index": 29, "text": "That's probably the scene that won you the Oscar.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "967332780", "date": "2021-02-15", "guest": "Cloris Leachman", "title": "Remembering TV And Film Star Cloris Leachman", "question_index": 30, "text": "You know, I went through a list of all of your movie and TV credits, and I realized looking at that list that you guest-star on just about every TV show I grew up with. I will now read an abridged copy of that list - \"Lassie,\" \"Perry Mason,\" \"Dr. Kildare,\" \"Mr. Novak,\" \"The Defender,\" \"77 Sunset Strip,\" \"Alfred Hitchcock Presents,\" \"Wagon Train,\" \"Laramie,\" \"Route 66,\" \"The Untouchables,\" \"Twilight Zone,\" \"The Donna Reed Show,\" \"Gunsmoke,\" \"Hawaiian Eye,\" \"Checkmate,\" \"Wanted Dead Or Alive\" and \"Rawhide.\" Wow. How did you", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No doubt. And the producer called him before it came out. They had to cut it. It was too long. And they'd cut it as much as humanly possible. And finally, the producer called - said, Peter, I have the"}
{"id": "967332780", "date": "2021-02-15", "guest": "Cloris Leachman", "title": "Remembering TV And Film Star Cloris Leachman", "question_index": 31, "text": "manage to guest-star on so many TV shows?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No doubt. And the producer called him before it came out. They had to cut it. It was too long. And they'd cut it as much as humanly possible. And finally, the producer called - said, Peter, I have the"}
{"id": "967332780", "date": "2021-02-15", "guest": "Cloris Leachman", "title": "Remembering TV And Film Star Cloris Leachman", "question_index": 32, "text": "Well, thank you. Thanks for talking with us and be well.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", make it more beautiful. So I always needed money to do that, and that helped me. I don't know. I think I tried not to do the same kind of role every single time. One time I was doing \"Suspense\" - he"}
{"id": "967332780", "date": "2021-02-15", "guest": "Cloris Leachman", "title": "Remembering TV And Film Star Cloris Leachman", "question_index": 33, "text": "OK. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're very welcome. It was very good."}
{"id": "967332780", "date": "2021-02-15", "guest": "Cloris Leachman", "title": "Remembering TV And Film Star Cloris Leachman", "question_index": 34, "text": "My interview with Cloris Leachman was recorded in 2009. She died last month. She was 94. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, my guest will be Rosa Brooks. Her new memoir is about her experiences when she became a reserve police officer with the Washington, D.C., Metropolitan Police Department. When she took on this work, she was in her 40s with two children, a spouse and a full-time job as a tenured law professor. She was disturbed by the statistics on police shootings and racial disparities and wanted to see firsthand what police work was like. Her husband thought she was insane, and her mother - writer and left-wing activist Barbara Ehrenreich - was also unenthusiastic. I hope you'll join us. We're closing with music from jazz pianist and composer Chick Corea. He died last week at the age of 79 from a rare form of cancer, which was only recently discovered. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "970487169", "date": "2021-02-23", "guest": "Jonathan Cohn", "title": "What Does The 'War' Over Obamacare Reveal About Our Governing Bodies?", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Obamacare, the Affordable Care Act, was passed in 2010. Since then, there have been many unsuccessful attempts by Republicans to kill it. The left has been pushing to have the government insure everyone directly through what's described as \"Medicare for All.\" Now this debate is happening during a pandemic, when health care is at the forefront of people's minds. My guest, Jonathan Cohn, is the author of the new book \"The Ten Year War: Obamacare And The Unfinished Crusade For Universal Coverage.\" It's about the politics and special interest groups that shaped the Affordable Care Act, the ACA. He writes, figuring out how to fix American health care has never been entirely or even primarily about what kind of system would work best; it's also been about what kind of changes can actually survive the political process. His book focuses on that political process, dating back to the 1920s. He's been reporting on health care since the late '90s. He's a former senior editor at The New Republic and is now senior national correspondent at HuffPost, where he covers politics and policy and has been focusing lately on COVID. Jonathan Cohn, welcome back to FRESH AIR. It's been a few years. Great to have you back.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "970487169", "date": "2021-02-23", "guest": "Jonathan Cohn", "title": "What Does The 'War' Over Obamacare Reveal About Our Governing Bodies?", "question_index": 1, "text": "In the book, you describe the ACA as a highly flawed, distressingly compromised, woefully incomplete attempt to establish a basic right that already exists in every other developed nation. It's also the most ambitious and significant piece of domestic legislation to pass in half a century. It's not nearly good enough, and yet so much better than what came before. Jonathan, having tracked the political process of health care legislation, do you now accept not nearly good enough as a giant step forward in a way that you wouldn't have had you not witnessed the difficulty of the political process of getting Obamacare passed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm so happy to be back on the show."}
{"id": "970487169", "date": "2021-02-23", "guest": "Jonathan Cohn", "title": "What Does The 'War' Over Obamacare Reveal About Our Governing Bodies?", "question_index": 2, "text": "Do other countries that have national health care systems, including England, Canada, Europe - did they go through a similar political process with special interest groups and lobbies and everybody wanting their own thing in or their own thing out that ends in a big compromise in a complicated bureaucracy, or did they have another approach?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Definitely. You know, when I started writing on health care, you know, back in the late 1990s and coming to this and seeing all the problems of our health care system, you know, of course, your mind s"}
{"id": "970487169", "date": "2021-02-23", "guest": "Jonathan Cohn", "title": "What Does The 'War' Over Obamacare Reveal About Our Governing Bodies?", "question_index": 3, "text": "And it ends up in a lot of compromise.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Every country is different. And the basic rule of thumb here is the earlier that you set up your health care system, the easier it is to do because you're operating - there's a blank slate. The pieces"}
{"id": "970487169", "date": "2021-02-23", "guest": "Jonathan Cohn", "title": "What Does The 'War' Over Obamacare Reveal About Our Governing Bodies?", "question_index": 4, "text": "So Republicans, you know, had been trying to defeat it before it was passed and continued, you know, after it was passed. Where do we stand now? It wasn't, to my knowledge, a major issue in the 2020 campaign. Have Republicans given up on trying to unravel or cancel Obamacare?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It does end up in a lot of compromise. And that is how the Affordable Care Act came to be and why it looks like it does."}
{"id": "970487169", "date": "2021-02-23", "guest": "Jonathan Cohn", "title": "What Does The 'War' Over Obamacare Reveal About Our Governing Bodies?", "question_index": 5, "text": "So President Biden has undone some of Trump's undoing of the ACA. So what has Biden done so far to strengthen the ACA?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I thought so many times the Republicans were done with fighting Obamacare and then proven wrong. I hate to say anything definitively. But it is very clear in the last two elections - the 201"}
{"id": "970487169", "date": "2021-02-23", "guest": "Jonathan Cohn", "title": "What Does The 'War' Over Obamacare Reveal About Our Governing Bodies?", "question_index": 6, "text": "Does Biden have other plans to try to expand the ACA?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So on Day 1, the Biden administration got to work undoing changes that the Trump administration had made to the Affordable Care Act. You know, the Republican effort at repeal failed, but the Trump adm"}
{"id": "970487169", "date": "2021-02-23", "guest": "Jonathan Cohn", "title": "What Does The 'War' Over Obamacare Reveal About Our Governing Bodies?", "question_index": 7, "text": "So this is a pretty broad question, but why did Republicans make health care coverage, government health care coverage such a big target? I mean, everybody wants health care. Of course, some people prefer to do it through private insurance, through employer insurance. But what were some of the motivations behind such strong Republican opposition? And, you know, how much of it do you think was ideological - you know, a belief that government should not be funding this? How much of it do you think was, like, you know, budget hawks saying, we just can't afford to spend this; it's a bad idea; we're going to go into debt? And how much of it was money, like lobbyists who, you know, support Republicans who didn't want the ACA to pass and threatened to withdraw their funding?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, in his campaign, he talked about adding a public option. And people who remember the original debate about the Affordable Care Act remember this was a very big part of the original pro"}
{"id": "970487169", "date": "2021-02-23", "guest": "Jonathan Cohn", "title": "What Does The 'War' Over Obamacare Reveal About Our Governing Bodies?", "question_index": 8, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jonathan Cohn. His new book is called \"The Ten Year War: Obamacare And The Unfinished Crusade For Universal Coverage.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let's start with the philosophy. I think philosophical differences are a big part of it. I mean, ever since we've been debating universal health care, conservatives have - in this country have fought "}
{"id": "970487169", "date": "2021-02-23", "guest": "Jonathan Cohn", "title": "What Does The 'War' Over Obamacare Reveal About Our Governing Bodies?", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jonathan Cohn. His new book, \"The Ten Year War,\" is about the politics behind the passage of Obamacare, the Affordable Care Act, and the subsequent attempts to dismantle or repeal it. So the pandemic is a true test of any health care plan or any national health care plan. How is the ACA functioning during this COVID pandemic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let's start with the philosophy. I think philosophical differences are a big part of it. I mean, ever since we've been debating universal health care, conservatives have - in this country have fought "}
{"id": "970487169", "date": "2021-02-23", "guest": "Jonathan Cohn", "title": "What Does The 'War' Over Obamacare Reveal About Our Governing Bodies?", "question_index": 10, "text": "So another example of how it's an imperfect plan, but it's better than not having it, in your opinion?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A pandemic really holds up a mirror to our health care system. And so, you know, one way to look at it is we still have millions of people uninsured. We have people with insurance with really big dedu"}
{"id": "970487169", "date": "2021-02-23", "guest": "Jonathan Cohn", "title": "What Does The 'War' Over Obamacare Reveal About Our Governing Bodies?", "question_index": 11, "text": "So there are certain weaknesses in the ACA. Can you give an example of something that you think is a weakness that is a result of a compromise that had to be made in order to get the bill passed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. Exactly."}
{"id": "970487169", "date": "2021-02-23", "guest": "Jonathan Cohn", "title": "What Does The 'War' Over Obamacare Reveal About Our Governing Bodies?", "question_index": 12, "text": "What is an example of a compromise that Nancy Pelosi made in the House, because she had a lot of trouble getting enough votes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I think the most obvious one is the amount of money that went into the funding, the overall funding of the health care legislation. When they were debating this, there was a commitment t"}
{"id": "970487169", "date": "2021-02-23", "guest": "Jonathan Cohn", "title": "What Does The 'War' Over Obamacare Reveal About Our Governing Bodies?", "question_index": 13, "text": "Harry Reid was the Senate majority leader at the time. What's something that he did either to compromise or to convince Democratic senators to sign on to the bill in order to get the ACA passed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, the most famous one, it was on abortion rights. You know, she's a staunch defender of abortion rights, has been for, you know, her career. When - you know, as she was moving a bill through"}
{"id": "970487169", "date": "2021-02-23", "guest": "Jonathan Cohn", "title": "What Does The 'War' Over Obamacare Reveal About Our Governing Bodies?", "question_index": 14, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Jonathan Cohn. He's the author of the new book called \"The Ten Year War: Obamacare And The Unfinished Crusade For Universal Coverage.\" Jonathan, we have to take another break here. And then we'll talk some more. So we'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Harry Reid had a tough job. They needed 60 votes. And they had 60 members of the Democratic caucus, could not lose a single member. The most famous compromise he had to make was on the public op"}
{"id": "970487169", "date": "2021-02-23", "guest": "Jonathan Cohn", "title": "What Does The 'War' Over Obamacare Reveal About Our Governing Bodies?", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross, back with Jonathan Cohn, author of the new book \"The Ten Year War: Obamacare And The Unfinished Crusade For Universal Coverage.\" The book reports on the behind-the-scenes politics that led to the passage of the ACA, the Affordable Care Act. It's also about the decades of attempts to provide health care coverage to Americans dating back to the 1920s. How did Harry Reid, the Senate majority leader at the time, get the support of Bernie Sanders? And Bernie Sanders, as everybody knows, has made universal health care or, you know, \"Medicare for All,\" a signature issue for him? And this this was a real - this was a distance away from what Bernie Sanders has wanted and advocated for for years. So what did it take to get Bernie Sanders to sign on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Harry Reid had a tough job. They needed 60 votes. And they had 60 members of the Democratic caucus, could not lose a single member. The most famous compromise he had to make was on the public op"}
{"id": "970487169", "date": "2021-02-23", "guest": "Jonathan Cohn", "title": "What Does The 'War' Over Obamacare Reveal About Our Governing Bodies?", "question_index": 16, "text": "And so that was written in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it was a big distance. And Bernie Sanders had a demand, although I think it says a lot about Bernie Sanders, the nature of the demand. When we talk about demands senators make, you know, some - "}
{"id": "970487169", "date": "2021-02-23", "guest": "Jonathan Cohn", "title": "What Does The 'War' Over Obamacare Reveal About Our Governing Bodies?", "question_index": 17, "text": "What would you say is one of the biggest compromises that Democrats made with the pharmaceutical industry in order to get the bill passed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was written in. And that funding has, you know, has done enormous good when you look at the impact of the law. If you really want to see the impact of the Affordable Care Act just vividly, you know"}
{"id": "970487169", "date": "2021-02-23", "guest": "Jonathan Cohn", "title": "What Does The 'War' Over Obamacare Reveal About Our Governing Bodies?", "question_index": 18, "text": "So just standing back a second and assessing the route that the ACA took to being passed and what went on behind the scenes, what impression did that leave you with about how our government functions, how the political process functions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So one of the big, you know, the big ideas for how Democrats were going to pass health care reform was they were going to negotiate with all of the industries. And they were going to go to every indus"}
{"id": "970487169", "date": "2021-02-23", "guest": "Jonathan Cohn", "title": "What Does The 'War' Over Obamacare Reveal About Our Governing Bodies?", "question_index": 19, "text": "So the Republicans had stood for repeal and replace. The replacement part never really got drafted even though President Trump had kept promising it's coming soon, a couple of weeks. It never materialized. Do you think that the explanation you just gave of Republicans becoming better at generating outrage than generating legislation and really knowing the art of legislation, do you think that explains in part why replace never got formulated?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I think it functions badly. And I think a fair amount of that is the way the sort of institutions of our government, especially the Congress, especially the Senate, are set up really thwart change "}
{"id": "970487169", "date": "2021-02-23", "guest": "Jonathan Cohn", "title": "What Does The 'War' Over Obamacare Reveal About Our Governing Bodies?", "question_index": 20, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us. My guest is Jonathan Cohn. He's the author of the new book \"The Ten Year War: Obamacare And The Unfinished Crusade For Universal Coverage.\" We'll be right back after this break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that's a really big part of it. You know, I - by comparison, I compare the years leading up to the Affordable Care Act's enactment to the years leading up to the attempt to repeal. And when yo"}
{"id": "970487169", "date": "2021-02-23", "guest": "Jonathan Cohn", "title": "What Does The 'War' Over Obamacare Reveal About Our Governing Bodies?", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jonathan Cohn. His new book, \"The Ten Year War,\" is about the politics behind the passage of Obamacare, the Affordable Care Act and the subsequent attempts to dismantle or repeal it. So a lot of people are pushing for universal health care. And some people see the ACA as a step in that direction, and I think others see it as a bureaucracy that takes us in a way further away from universal health care. And of course, some people don't want universal health care because it's more government interference in health care. But do you think that the U.S. will ever have universal health care?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that's a really big part of it. You know, I - by comparison, I compare the years leading up to the Affordable Care Act's enactment to the years leading up to the attempt to repeal. And when yo"}
{"id": "970487169", "date": "2021-02-23", "guest": "Jonathan Cohn", "title": "What Does The 'War' Over Obamacare Reveal About Our Governing Bodies?", "question_index": 22, "text": "You've been writing about health care coverage and health care, you know, policy for basically your whole adult life. What's kept you doing that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do think we'll get there eventually. I think it will take time. You know, the people who wrote the Affordable Care Act, certainly were trying to get to universal health care. That's what they believ"}
{"id": "970487169", "date": "2021-02-23", "guest": "Jonathan Cohn", "title": "What Does The 'War' Over Obamacare Reveal About Our Governing Bodies?", "question_index": 23, "text": "Your mother died after a long illness. She was in a nursing home. And she died during the COVID pandemic, so you were not able to be with her or to visit her. I'm very sorry for your loss. So - but I'm going to ask you a more technical question here. I don't know how much you had to deal with her bills and with the nursing home doctors and nurses. It's so hard when you have somebody who you care about and you can't see them and they're in a hospital or a nursing home. What did you learn about our health care system from the period when you were able to visit her and then in COVID when you couldn't?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I would say two things. First of all, the problem never gets solved. So there is always, you know, it's an ongoing effort to sort of figure out what to do about it and to understand it"}
{"id": "970487169", "date": "2021-02-23", "guest": "Jonathan Cohn", "title": "What Does The 'War' Over Obamacare Reveal About Our Governing Bodies?", "question_index": 24, "text": "Another issue related to nursing homes and to hospital care and to home health care is that a lot of the nurses and home health care workers, I think, are really underpaid. And I think it's a weakness in the system. We expect, we demand so much of them. And some of them are making so little in return. And I think it sometimes shows up in the care that you get.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, thank you for the sympathy. I learned a lot. You know, as someone who writes about health care, to be on the other end of it, sort of experiencing this and navigating this and trying to na"}
{"id": "970487169", "date": "2021-02-23", "guest": "Jonathan Cohn", "title": "What Does The 'War' Over Obamacare Reveal About Our Governing Bodies?", "question_index": 25, "text": "Lately, you've been covering the pandemic. What are some of the changes the Biden administration has been making or plans to make regarding the pandemic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Unquestionably. People who provide direct care, that is such a hard job. It requires a combination of skills that you learn and talent that some people have. And they're paid ridiculously low, frequen"}
{"id": "970487169", "date": "2021-02-23", "guest": "Jonathan Cohn", "title": "What Does The 'War' Over Obamacare Reveal About Our Governing Bodies?", "question_index": 26, "text": "Well, Jonathan Cohn, thank you so much for talking with us. It's a pleasure to talk with you again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So there's no one silver bullet. I mean, really, what they've done is they've sort of come up with a list of all the little things you need to do to improve vaccine distribution. And they are ba"}
{"id": "970487169", "date": "2021-02-23", "guest": "Jonathan Cohn", "title": "What Does The 'War' Over Obamacare Reveal About Our Governing Bodies?", "question_index": 27, "text": "Jonathan Cohn is a senior national correspondent at Huff Post and author of the new book \"The Ten Year War: Obamacare And The Unfinished Crusade For Universal Coverage.\" After we take a short break, John Powers will review the new film \"Minari,\" which won the top jury prize and top audience prize at last year's Sundance Film Festival. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me on the show."}
{"id": "971319812", "date": "2021-02-25", "guest": "Luke Mogelson", "title": "Reporter's Video From Inside Senate On Jan. 6 Shows A Crowd Prepared For Violence", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Some of the most viewed, most remarkable and revealing video of the January 6 Capitol riot was shot inside the Senate chamber by my guest, Luke Mogelson. Some of his video was used as evidence by House managers prosecuting Donald Trump in his second impeachment trial. Mogelson was reporting for The New Yorker on the Trump rally that preceded the storming of the Capitol, walked with the mob to the Capitol and after rioters breached the building, he entered with them. In the Senate chamber, he recorded video of Trump supporters opening the desks of senators, going through their papers, taking photos of the documents and stealing some of them. He recorded Jacob Chansley, the so-called QAnon Shaman, saying a prayer at the dais in the chamber, bare-chested, face painted, wearing his signature horned fur headdress. Mogelson's article, \"Among The Insurrectionists,\" was published in the January 25 issue of The New Yorker and is on The New Yorker website along with his video. While we were recording the interview yesterday morning, it was announced that Mogelson won a George Polk Award for his reporting in 2020 in three New Yorker articles that put his extensive experiences as a foreign war correspondent to use with firsthand accounts of domestic upheaval in the U.S. Luke Mogelson, welcome to FRESH AIR. You know, the Senate hearing this week investigating the lack of security at the Capitol - the sergeant at arms for both the Senate and the House, as well as the head of the Capitol Police - the witnesses said that they didn't have enough warning about what to expect. And there was an intelligence report that was sent the day or the night before the storming of the Capitol, but it wasn't headlined as urgent, and they didn't see it. So the sub headline of your article reads, the Capitol was breached by Trump supporters who had been declaring at rally after rally that they would go to violent lengths to keep the president in power - a chronicle of an attack foretold. You think it was an attack foretold. Why do you think you knew that?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "971319812", "date": "2021-02-25", "guest": "Luke Mogelson", "title": "Reporter's Video From Inside Senate On Jan. 6 Shows A Crowd Prepared For Violence", "question_index": 1, "text": "So when, for instance, one of the Proud Boys leaders, Joe Biggs, said every lawmaker who breaks their own stupid effing (ph) laws should be dragged out of office and hung, did you see that as colorful hyperbole or did you take that seriously?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, as early as November 7, I was at a rally in Harrisburg, Pa., where people were vowing to revolt if the results weren't overturned. That was the day that media outlets projected Biden to be the w"}
{"id": "971319812", "date": "2021-02-25", "guest": "Luke Mogelson", "title": "Reporter's Video From Inside Senate On Jan. 6 Shows A Crowd Prepared For Violence", "question_index": 2, "text": "So when you showed up at the rally on January 6 - and this is the rally at which President Trump spoke - so you show up at the rally. You're trying to be incognito. You don't want anyone to know you're a journalist. So what was your approach to being at the rally and not being noticed in any way, just blending in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I would have if not for the November 14 and December 12 rallies in D.C., which took place, by the way, just a couple blocks away from the Capitol building. So again, there had been serious viole"}
{"id": "971319812", "date": "2021-02-25", "guest": "Luke Mogelson", "title": "Reporter's Video From Inside Senate On Jan. 6 Shows A Crowd Prepared For Violence", "question_index": 3, "text": "Were there moments when you were in the crowd at the rally on January 6 when you could feel the crowd intensifying, when you could feel them getting riled up and ready for action and for violence?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I showed up around 7:45 in the morning. And there was already quite a big crowd gathering at the base of the Washington Monument and on Constitution Avenue. There was a line to get into the Elli"}
{"id": "971319812", "date": "2021-02-25", "guest": "Luke Mogelson", "title": "Reporter's Video From Inside Senate On Jan. 6 Shows A Crowd Prepared For Violence", "question_index": 4, "text": "What kind of arms and gear did you see in the crowd on January 6 before the march to the Capitol?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. For me, the kind of key moment was when Trump characterized all of the alleged fraud and all of the baseless claims of voter rigging and foul play as explosions of bull****. There was something "}
{"id": "971319812", "date": "2021-02-25", "guest": "Luke Mogelson", "title": "Reporter's Video From Inside Senate On Jan. 6 Shows A Crowd Prepared For Violence", "question_index": 5, "text": "So something I'm - one of the many things I'm unsure about is the initial idea to march to the Capitol. Was that an idea that Trump introduced at the rally?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A lot of people had walking sticks. And I had seen that at previous events. And a member of the Pennsylvania Three Percent militia had even told me that the reason so many guys were walking around wit"}
{"id": "971319812", "date": "2021-02-25", "guest": "Luke Mogelson", "title": "Reporter's Video From Inside Senate On Jan. 6 Shows A Crowd Prepared For Violence", "question_index": 6, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Luke Mogelson, who reports for The New Yorker. His article about January 6 is titled Among the Insurrectionists. It's on The New Yorker website along with his video. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Certainly some people had the idea to go to the Capitol prior to January 6. I mean, Joe Biggs, we now know, brought a bunch of Proud Boys to the Capitol before Trump even gave his speech. So they were"}
{"id": "971319812", "date": "2021-02-25", "guest": "Luke Mogelson", "title": "Reporter's Video From Inside Senate On Jan. 6 Shows A Crowd Prepared For Violence", "question_index": 7, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. If you're just joining us, my guest is Luke Mogelson. and his New Yorker article about the January 6th storming of the Capitol is titled \"Among The Insurrectionists.\" It's on The New Yorker website along with his video of the breach of the Capitol and what happened inside the Senate chamber. So you positioned yourself at the Capitol before the mob marched there, but some of the people had already been there, some of the people who were armed. When did you notice - when did you first see that the building, the Capitol building was being breached?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Certainly some people had the idea to go to the Capitol prior to January 6. I mean, Joe Biggs, we now know, brought a bunch of Proud Boys to the Capitol before Trump even gave his speech. So they were"}
{"id": "971319812", "date": "2021-02-25", "guest": "Luke Mogelson", "title": "Reporter's Video From Inside Senate On Jan. 6 Shows A Crowd Prepared For Violence", "question_index": 8, "text": "So you couldn't get out the other way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the only way to get up to the main level of the Capitol, which had doors and windows that could be breached, was to go through the understructure, the kind of scaffolding of these bleachers and up "}
{"id": "971319812", "date": "2021-02-25", "guest": "Luke Mogelson", "title": "Reporter's Video From Inside Senate On Jan. 6 Shows A Crowd Prepared For Violence", "question_index": 9, "text": "So you were taking a lot of risks by going in. If the MAGA people found out that you were a journalist - if the rioters found out you were a journalist, who knows what would have happened 'cause they're so anti-journalism and anti-journalist. If the police arrested you, you'd have to say you were a journalist. But on the other hand, you didn't want to reveal that you were a journalist, so you were in a kind of losing situation in that respect if anybody noticed you and tried to address you or stop you. What did you do to try to protect yourself from being discovered?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They couldn't back - you couldn't really back out, no. And at that point, I was actually hit in the eyes by pepper spray at pretty close range and wasn't able to see. So I kind of had to feel my way o"}
{"id": "971319812", "date": "2021-02-25", "guest": "Luke Mogelson", "title": "Reporter's Video From Inside Senate On Jan. 6 Shows A Crowd Prepared For Violence", "question_index": 10, "text": "I would guess that some people participate so that they'll have video to show friends and say, I was there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nothing too elaborate or sneaky - I mean, I was just wearing my normal clothes, and I was just filming with an iPhone. It was easier for me than for the photographers, obviously, because there were ot"}
{"id": "971319812", "date": "2021-02-25", "guest": "Luke Mogelson", "title": "Reporter's Video From Inside Senate On Jan. 6 Shows A Crowd Prepared For Violence", "question_index": 11, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely, absolutely. And I think that's been a real boon for the FBI..."}
{"id": "971319812", "date": "2021-02-25", "guest": "Luke Mogelson", "title": "Reporter's Video From Inside Senate On Jan. 6 Shows A Crowd Prepared For Violence", "question_index": 12, "text": "In describing the police at the Capitol, once you got inside, you say, interactions between Trump supporters and law enforcement vacillated from homicidal belligerence to borderline camaraderie. Give us an example of both.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...During its investigation, yeah."}
{"id": "971319812", "date": "2021-02-25", "guest": "Luke Mogelson", "title": "Reporter's Video From Inside Senate On Jan. 6 Shows A Crowd Prepared For Violence", "question_index": 13, "text": "One of the - I mean, you've pointed to one of the real mysteries of January 6, which is why weren't the protesters, as they left the building that they had stormed, why weren't they arrested? Why weren't their weapons confiscated? Why were they allowed to leave with documents from the senators' desks? I'm wondering if you have any clarity about that. I mean, it's possible that the police just wanted these people out as soon as possible, and the way to do that and the way to do that most efficiently would be to have them peacefully file out and not feel more threatened and start using their weapons because, you know, you had people hiding in that building. You had our elected officials and their staff and family hiding in that building. So it could be the goal was just, like, get them out; get the protesters out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Once we were inside, the dynamic between the officers and the rioters switched completely, whereas outside they had been in - under the bleachers, I'd seen them, you know, really going at the Trump su"}
{"id": "971319812", "date": "2021-02-25", "guest": "Luke Mogelson", "title": "Reporter's Video From Inside Senate On Jan. 6 Shows A Crowd Prepared For Violence", "question_index": 14, "text": "We need to take another break here, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Luke Mogelson, who reports for The New Yorker. His article about the storming of the Capitol on January 6 is titled \"Among The Insurrectionists.\" It's on The New Yorker website, along with his video. We'll be right back after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. And I think that's what it was. It was clearly a deliberate attempt to de-escalate, and that was the priority. They weren't trying to collect evidence or investigate or set up future prosecut"}
{"id": "971319812", "date": "2021-02-25", "guest": "Luke Mogelson", "title": "Reporter's Video From Inside Senate On Jan. 6 Shows A Crowd Prepared For Violence", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. If you're just joining us, my guest is Luke Mogelson. He writes for The New Yorker, and his article about the January 6 storming of the Capitol is titled \"Among The Insurrectionists.\" It's on The New Yorker website, along with his video of the breach of the Capitol and what happened inside the Senate chamber. It's a now-famous video that was shown time and time again on cable news. And it was also excerpted as evidence in the second Senate impeachment trial of Donald Trump, used as evidence by the House managers prosecuting Trump. Let's talk about what happened in the Senate chamber. One of the most dramatic parts of your video is, you know, in the background, like, off-camera, you hear somebody, like, chanting and kind of growling in an almost animalistic way. And it's a very disturbing sound. And it turns out it's the voice of Jacob Chansley, aka the QAnon Shaman. And this is the guy who comes in bare-chested, face painted with his fur horned headdress. Had you encountered him before? Did you know about him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. And I think that's what it was. It was clearly a deliberate attempt to de-escalate, and that was the priority. They weren't trying to collect evidence or investigate or set up future prosecut"}
{"id": "971319812", "date": "2021-02-25", "guest": "Luke Mogelson", "title": "Reporter's Video From Inside Senate On Jan. 6 Shows A Crowd Prepared For Violence", "question_index": 16, "text": "Describe what he did after he came in that you captured on video.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The first time I encountered Jacob Chansley was that morning at the Washington Monument when I was walking around, kind of just filming the crowd, taking notes, trying to get a sense of the energy and"}
{"id": "971319812", "date": "2021-02-25", "guest": "Luke Mogelson", "title": "Reporter's Video From Inside Senate On Jan. 6 Shows A Crowd Prepared For Violence", "question_index": 17, "text": "They really said that. They really asked him to do that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So first, he was up in the gallery and was just kind of chanting and pounding his spear, which had an American flag tied on to it, on the ground. And people down on the Senate floor were getting kind "}
{"id": "971319812", "date": "2021-02-25", "guest": "Luke Mogelson", "title": "Reporter's Video From Inside Senate On Jan. 6 Shows A Crowd Prepared For Violence", "question_index": 18, "text": "It's interesting what you're saying about the reaction to, you know, the so-called Q Anon Shaman. I've always wondered, you know, ever since the insurrection, were there other people considering him a shaman or that he just has decided that he is a shaman but he has nobody who believes it? - because, you know, let's face it. He looks ludicrous, and it sounds like he doesn't really have followers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. There was a young guy - he's since been arrested, so we know a little bit about him. He was from Leeds, Ala. His name was Joshua Black, and he was in there kind of keeping order. There was"}
{"id": "971319812", "date": "2021-02-25", "guest": "Luke Mogelson", "title": "Reporter's Video From Inside Senate On Jan. 6 Shows A Crowd Prepared For Violence", "question_index": 19, "text": "Do you know anything about Chansley, the QAnon shaman - do you know anything about his mental health situation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But he definitely commanded respect among people at the Washington Monument when I was following him around. People recognized him. People yelled out to him. He was kind of leading folks in this QAn"}
{"id": "971319812", "date": "2021-02-25", "guest": "Luke Mogelson", "title": "Reporter's Video From Inside Senate On Jan. 6 Shows A Crowd Prepared For Violence", "question_index": 20, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Luke Mogelson, who reports for The New Yorker. His article about the January 6 storming of the Capitol is titled \"Among The Insurrectionists.\" It's on The New Yorker website along with his video. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "only in control of his faculties, but also determined to exploit the situation to his benefit as much as possible, including getting people to, you know, take pictures of him and film him. And there w"}
{"id": "971319812", "date": "2021-02-25", "guest": "Luke Mogelson", "title": "Reporter's Video From Inside Senate On Jan. 6 Shows A Crowd Prepared For Violence", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. If you're just joining us, my guest is Luke Mogelson. His New Yorker article about the January 6 storming of the Capitol is titled \"Among The Insurrectionists.\" It's on The New Yorker website, along with his video of the breach of the Capitol and what happened inside the chamber. So before you left the Senate chamber, you were able to go to the dais where, you know, the shaman had been. And you were able to video the note that he left on the page with the Senate roll call. Tell us what he had written.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "only in control of his faculties, but also determined to exploit the situation to his benefit as much as possible, including getting people to, you know, take pictures of him and film him. And there w"}
{"id": "971319812", "date": "2021-02-25", "guest": "Luke Mogelson", "title": "Reporter's Video From Inside Senate On Jan. 6 Shows A Crowd Prepared For Violence", "question_index": 22, "text": "How were you able to get to the dais? At what point did you get there to video that note?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He had written, it's only a matter of time. Justice is coming, exclamation mark."}
{"id": "971319812", "date": "2021-02-25", "guest": "Luke Mogelson", "title": "Reporter's Video From Inside Senate On Jan. 6 Shows A Crowd Prepared For Violence", "question_index": 23, "text": "Yeah. Well, I mean, your video is being used as evidence against them. They probably had no idea that that was going to happen and that it would be used as evidence against Trump at his second Senate impeachment trial.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "when he saw me coming to film, he actually flipped the paper around so that I could get a clear shot of it. And again, that wasn't only him. He - there were other folks in the Senate chamber who were "}
{"id": "971319812", "date": "2021-02-25", "guest": "Luke Mogelson", "title": "Reporter's Video From Inside Senate On Jan. 6 Shows A Crowd Prepared For Violence", "question_index": 24, "text": "And they thought that they were participating in making sure that he was going to be president. And they believed him when he said he was going to be.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, they thought that Trump was going to be president for four more years and would protect them from any kind of prosecution."}
{"id": "971319812", "date": "2021-02-25", "guest": "Luke Mogelson", "title": "Reporter's Video From Inside Senate On Jan. 6 Shows A Crowd Prepared For Violence", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well, they were misled. He did not go with them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. Yeah. And it's not only that he led them to believe that that's what was happening and that's what they were doing, he said, during his speech that morning at the monument, that he was going "}
{"id": "971319812", "date": "2021-02-25", "guest": "Luke Mogelson", "title": "Reporter's Video From Inside Senate On Jan. 6 Shows A Crowd Prepared For Violence", "question_index": 26, "text": "So your video has been used as evidence against some of the people who stormed the Capitol and who were in the Senate chamber. Did you ever think when you were filming it that it would be evidence for, you know, conspiracy charges? Or, you know, you said you had no idea it would be used at a second impeachment trial. You didn't know he'd be impeached again. But were you aware of the possibility of your video being used as evidence, particularly if you posted it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He did not, no. Neither did, really, any of the kind of iconoclast and conspiracy theorists and militia leaders who had been creating this - aggressively creating this insurrectionary fervor since the"}
{"id": "971319812", "date": "2021-02-25", "guest": "Luke Mogelson", "title": "Reporter's Video From Inside Senate On Jan. 6 Shows A Crowd Prepared For Violence", "question_index": 27, "text": "Yeah, it's an interesting distinction between your video and your article. I can't necessarily identify some of the people from how you describe them in the article, but if you see their face in a video, you know who they are. And, you know, the police, the FBI can track them down so much more easily.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Afterwards, yeah. But again, when I was recording, I did not think that I - that we would publish the video. I thought that I would use it to write my article because this is a technique that I use fo"}
{"id": "971319812", "date": "2021-02-25", "guest": "Luke Mogelson", "title": "Reporter's Video From Inside Senate On Jan. 6 Shows A Crowd Prepared For Violence", "question_index": 28, "text": "Was there a big conversation at The New Yorker before you published the video about whether you should put it online or not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly, exactly. And again, like, that's just not my job. And I don't work for the FBI and have never wanted to. And I think it's a very slippery slope once you go down that road because even if, in "}
{"id": "971319812", "date": "2021-02-25", "guest": "Luke Mogelson", "title": "Reporter's Video From Inside Senate On Jan. 6 Shows A Crowd Prepared For Violence", "question_index": 29, "text": "But it's a remarkable document. And speaking as a member of the public, I'm really grateful that I was able to see something of what went on in the chamber. Do you expect to be called as a witness at any of the conspiracy trials or trespassing - I don't know what all the charges are or what all of them will be. But what do you think you will do if you're called, you know, if you're subpoenaed to be a witness?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Yeah. Yeah, there was. And ultimately, you know, we came down on the side of this being a unique situation, a historically unique event that merited an exception. And the argument that, I think, kin"}
{"id": "971319812", "date": "2021-02-25", "guest": "Luke Mogelson", "title": "Reporter's Video From Inside Senate On Jan. 6 Shows A Crowd Prepared For Violence", "question_index": 30, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Luke Mogelson, who reports for The New Yorker. His article about January 6 is titled \"Among The Insurrectionists.\" It's on The New Yorker website, along with his video. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would fight it. Again, like, that's not my job. And I think that once journalists start cooperating with law enforcement, especially federal law enforcement, in prosecutions against their subjects, "}
{"id": "971319812", "date": "2021-02-25", "guest": "Luke Mogelson", "title": "Reporter's Video From Inside Senate On Jan. 6 Shows A Crowd Prepared For Violence", "question_index": 31, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. If you're just joining us, my guest is Luke Mogelson. His New Yorker article about the January 6 storming of the Capitol is titled \"Among The Insurrectionists.\" It's on The New Yorker website, along with his video of the breach of the Capitol and what happened inside the Senate chamber. You know, there's the big question now about whether there was any kind of organized coordination to march on the Capitol and breach the building, whether there was a conspiracy, and if so, which groups were involved. From what you've heard and from what you've seen in the months that you've been covering the far-right militant extremists, do you feel like you see any clues or any evidence that there was premeditation or coordination?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would fight it. Again, like, that's not my job. And I think that once journalists start cooperating with law enforcement, especially federal law enforcement, in prosecutions against their subjects, "}
{"id": "971319812", "date": "2021-02-25", "guest": "Luke Mogelson", "title": "Reporter's Video From Inside Senate On Jan. 6 Shows A Crowd Prepared For Violence", "question_index": 32, "text": "This is kind of mysterious to me. It's a small detail but kind of interesting one. So the Proud Boys, like, one of the groups that was active in the insurrection, one of the far-right groups, strong Trump supporters - one of the things that they holler at rallies is uhuru, which is a Swahili word for freedom. So why is a far-right group like the Proud Boys using a Swahili word? Is that supposed to be ironic? Are there supposed to be, like, scare quotes around it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that there were very likely groups, small groups, that discussed the possibility of breaching the Capitol and were prepared to do so if Trump gave them the tacit or explicit green light during"}
{"id": "971319812", "date": "2021-02-25", "guest": "Luke Mogelson", "title": "Reporter's Video From Inside Senate On Jan. 6 Shows A Crowd Prepared For Violence", "question_index": 33, "text": "I'm so grateful to you for coming on our show today. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. But this is the weird thing about the proud boys is, I mean, they used to always - Enrique Tarrio, who is the national chairman of the Proud Boys, although now since it was revealed that he's a "}
{"id": "971319812", "date": "2021-02-25", "guest": "Luke Mogelson", "title": "Reporter's Video From Inside Senate On Jan. 6 Shows A Crowd Prepared For Violence", "question_index": 34, "text": "Luke Mogelson reports for The New Yorker. His article, \"Among The Insurrectionists,\" and his video of the storming of the Capitol are on The New Yorker website. While we were recording our interview yesterday morning, it was announced that he won a George Polk Award for his reporting in The New Yorker in 2020. If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed - like this week's interview with Sacha Baron Cohen about the new movies that have earned him Golden Globe nominations, \"The Trial Of The Chicago 7\" in which he plays Abbie Hoffman and \"Borat Subsequent Moviefilm\" for which he shot a now infamous scene with Rudy Giuliani - check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. I really appreciate it."}
{"id": "971319812", "date": "2021-02-25", "guest": "Luke Mogelson", "title": "Reporter's Video From Inside Senate On Jan. 6 Shows A Crowd Prepared For Violence", "question_index": 35, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Challoner, Seth Kelley and Kayla Latimore. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. I really appreciate it."}
{"id": "971770447", "date": "2021-02-26", "guest": "Kingsley Ben-Adir", "title": "The Legacies Of Black Icons Sam Cooke, Muhammad Ali (Cassius Clay) And Malcolm X", "question_index": 0, "text": "Peter Guralnick, welcome back to FRESH AIR. This is the song that Sam Cooke crossed over with from gospel to pop. What did it mean to Cooke to cross over and to have a No. 1 song on the pop charts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Darling, you send me. I know you send me. Darling, you send me - honest you do, honest you do, honest you do. Whoa. You thrill me. I know you, you, you thrill me. Darling, you, you, you thri"}
{"id": "971770447", "date": "2021-02-26", "guest": "Kingsley Ben-Adir", "title": "The Legacies Of Black Icons Sam Cooke, Muhammad Ali (Cassius Clay) And Malcolm X", "question_index": 1, "text": "Peter, how do you think Sam Cooke's gospel singing compared to his pop singing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For - it meant tremendous fear and tremendous relief. I mean, the greatest barrier to Sam Cooke, crossing over, was not so much a religious concern. He never left the church. He never left gospel musi"}
{"id": "971770447", "date": "2021-02-26", "guest": "Kingsley Ben-Adir", "title": "The Legacies Of Black Icons Sam Cooke, Muhammad Ali (Cassius Clay) And Malcolm X", "question_index": 2, "text": "Another way in which Sam Cooke was groundbreaking is that he co-founded and co-owned a record label, a record label that he started with his friend and business partner J.W. Alexander. Why did he want that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it compared - in some ways, it compared very directly. In other ways, it contrasted. I think the comparison is that Sam learned - he was inclined very early on, and he learned very early on th"}
{"id": "971770447", "date": "2021-02-26", "guest": "Kingsley Ben-Adir", "title": "The Legacies Of Black Icons Sam Cooke, Muhammad Ali (Cassius Clay) And Malcolm X", "question_index": 3, "text": "One of Sam Cooke's greatest records was released on an album very late in his life, and it was released posthumously as a single, and the song is \"A Change Is Gonna Come.\" This is a song that he wrote. And before we actually hear it, what inspired this song, and what was the change of direction it represented in his music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He - it really stemmed from an innate sense of Black pride and self-determination, which was something - he was a student of Black history at a time when the term didn't exist. He was someone who had "}
{"id": "971770447", "date": "2021-02-26", "guest": "Kingsley Ben-Adir", "title": "The Legacies Of Black Icons Sam Cooke, Muhammad Ali (Cassius Clay) And Malcolm X", "question_index": 4, "text": "Do you think that if Sam Cooke had lived, that \"A Change Is Gonna Come\" would have been the start of a new direction for him, a new, more socially engaged type of song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What inspired the song \"A Change Is Gonna Come\" was really everything that was going on in this country, in Sam's consciousness at that time, with respect to the racial situation, with respect to the "}
{"id": "971770447", "date": "2021-02-26", "guest": "Kingsley Ben-Adir", "title": "The Legacies Of Black Icons Sam Cooke, Muhammad Ali (Cassius Clay) And Malcolm X", "question_index": 5, "text": "Peter Guralnick, thank you so much for talking with us about Sam Cooke.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I think he really intended to go in every direction at once. And I think one of those directions would have been, you know, a more socially conscious one. And the fact that in that same year"}
{"id": "971770447", "date": "2021-02-26", "guest": "Kingsley Ben-Adir", "title": "The Legacies Of Black Icons Sam Cooke, Muhammad Ali (Cassius Clay) And Malcolm X", "question_index": 6, "text": "Did he get impatient with you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Our backgrounds were very different. You know, I was and I am a Methodist. And I'm from Henning, Tenn. And Malcolm was a Muslim. And he was from a variety of places. And his background had included wh"}
{"id": "971770447", "date": "2021-02-26", "guest": "Kingsley Ben-Adir", "title": "The Legacies Of Black Icons Sam Cooke, Muhammad Ali (Cassius Clay) And Malcolm X", "question_index": 7, "text": "About being different from him...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "About what?"}
{"id": "971770447", "date": "2021-02-26", "guest": "Kingsley Ben-Adir", "title": "The Legacies Of Black Icons Sam Cooke, Muhammad Ali (Cassius Clay) And Malcolm X", "question_index": 8, "text": "...About being, quote, \"square\" and not being exposed to - no?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no, no, no."}
{"id": "971770447", "date": "2021-02-26", "guest": "Kingsley Ben-Adir", "title": "The Legacies Of Black Icons Sam Cooke, Muhammad Ali (Cassius Clay) And Malcolm X", "question_index": 9, "text": "You spent a year interviewing him. Was he hard to interview?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no, no. It would sometimes amuse him when I didn't know this, that or the other. The only time I ever saw Malcolm angry, really angry - and that was a fearsome sight to see because he was generall"}
{"id": "971770447", "date": "2021-02-26", "guest": "Kingsley Ben-Adir", "title": "The Legacies Of Black Icons Sam Cooke, Muhammad Ali (Cassius Clay) And Malcolm X", "question_index": 10, "text": "How do you think it affected him to, in a structured way, go through his - the whole past that he had, that he could remember, you know, to give it to you for your book? Because that's - it's like being in therapy to go through your past in such detail. I mean, it might...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You asked the perfect thing not knowing you asked it to get me to tell you the thing I wanted to tell you to begin with about when I told you Malcolm got irritated at me. After the assignment had come"}
{"id": "971770447", "date": "2021-02-26", "guest": "Kingsley Ben-Adir", "title": "The Legacies Of Black Icons Sam Cooke, Muhammad Ali (Cassius Clay) And Malcolm X", "question_index": 11, "text": "I assume it be similar to be, like - being in therapy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it..."}
{"id": "973604904", "date": "2021-03-04", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Trump's Deal To End War In Afghanistan Leaves Biden With 'A Terrible Situation'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. One of Donald Trump's campaign promises was to end the war in Afghanistan. Last year, he negotiated an agreement with the Taliban to withdraw all U.S. forces by May 1 of 2021. That's less than two months away. Not represented in that agreement were members of the Afghan government. They're now negotiating with the Taliban. Meanwhile, President Biden, having inherited the Trump deal, faces some tough choices, as my guest, Dexter Filkins, explains in his new piece in The New Yorker. If Biden succeeds in pulling out troops, he will end a forever war. But with U.S. troops gone, civil war could flare up, the Taliban could take over and the war Americans fought could be deemed a failure. Filkins was in Afghanistan in December and January. He started reporting from Afghanistan in the '90s. He covered the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan for The New York Times and joined The New Yorker as a staff writer in 2011. He coined the phrase \"The Forever War,\" which is the title of his now-classic book about the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. It won a 2008 National Book Critics Circle Award. Filkins also won a Pulitzer Prize, two George Polk Awards and three Overseas Press Club awards. His new article is titled \"Last Exit From Afghanistan.\" We recorded our interview yesterday. Dexter Filkins, welcome back to FRESH AIR. It's been a while. You've been well?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "973604904", "date": "2021-03-04", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Trump's Deal To End War In Afghanistan Leaves Biden With 'A Terrible Situation'", "question_index": 1, "text": "It's a pleasure to have you back on our show. So let's start with the deal that Trump negotiated with the Taliban. Can you describe the deal to us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Thank you."}
{"id": "973604904", "date": "2021-03-04", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Trump's Deal To End War In Afghanistan Leaves Biden With 'A Terrible Situation'", "question_index": 2, "text": "So NATO's decision isn't totally contingent on whether we pull out by May 1.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The deal itself is simple, but it kind of sets off this cascade of other things which are not so simple. But the deal basically says the Taliban won't kill any Americans, and we won't attack the Talib"}
{"id": "973604904", "date": "2021-03-04", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Trump's Deal To End War In Afghanistan Leaves Biden With 'A Terrible Situation'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Trump had way - has a way of defying norms, breaking conventions. Did he defy norms and conventions when he - when his administration negotiated this deal?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's not, but they're all kind of watching. I think it's pretty fair to say that if the U.S. doesn't stay, then the Europeans aren't going to stay. And so I think whatever Biden decides effectively is"}
{"id": "973604904", "date": "2021-03-04", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Trump's Deal To End War In Afghanistan Leaves Biden With 'A Terrible Situation'", "question_index": 4, "text": "OK. But in a way, it's a very narrow agreement. It's between the Taliban and the U.S. The Afghan government was not included in it. The agreement says the Taliban won't kill Americans - done. But the Taliban are stepping up their killings of Afghans. I mean, they're increasing their power. They're encroaching on cities. There's been more and more targeted murders of women, of journalists, of educated people who are considered, like, the educated elite, of people who have spoken out against the Taliban in the past. So, I mean, they're not acquiescing, you know, to anything except, OK, we're not going to kill you guys. We're going to kill the Afghans. It - but that's not part of the deal.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they did. They did, for sure - for sure. I mean, the first - the most obvious thing about this agreement is that the Afghan government was left out of it. And, I mean, the reasons for that are k"}
{"id": "973604904", "date": "2021-03-04", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Trump's Deal To End War In Afghanistan Leaves Biden With 'A Terrible Situation'", "question_index": 5, "text": "So what is the role now of the Biden administration in the ongoing talks between the Taliban and the Afghan government?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's not part of the deal, and it's a terrible situation. It's a terrible situation. And it's difficult not to conclude, when you stand back and look at it, that the real purpose of this agreement, an"}
{"id": "973604904", "date": "2021-03-04", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Trump's Deal To End War In Afghanistan Leaves Biden With 'A Terrible Situation'", "question_index": 6, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is New Yorker staff writer Dexter Filkins. His new article is titled \"Last Exit From Afghanistan.\" We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the Biden administration inherited all this, right? So they inherited the war, and then they inherited this May 1 pullout date, which is the United States will withdraw all of its forces by May "}
{"id": "973604904", "date": "2021-03-04", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Trump's Deal To End War In Afghanistan Leaves Biden With 'A Terrible Situation'", "question_index": 7, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with New Yorker staff writer Dexter Filkins. His new article is titled \"Last Exit From Afghanistan: Will Peace Talks With The Taliban And The Prospect Of An American Withdrawal Create A Breakthrough Or A Collapse?\" Last year, Trump signed a peace agreement with the Taliban in which the U.S. agreed to withdraw all its troops from Afghanistan by May 1, which is less than two months away, leaving President Biden with some tough choices. So what is the role of the Biden administration now in the ongoing peace talks between the government of Afghanistan and the Taliban?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the Biden administration inherited all this, right? So they inherited the war, and then they inherited this May 1 pullout date, which is the United States will withdraw all of its forces by May "}
{"id": "973604904", "date": "2021-03-04", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Trump's Deal To End War In Afghanistan Leaves Biden With 'A Terrible Situation'", "question_index": 8, "text": "It must be really, really interesting around the negotiating table now between the Taliban and the Afghan government because, you know, some of the people negotiating on behalf of the Afghan government are victims of the Taliban. And some of the Taliban negotiating have been prisoners in Gitmo. Would you describe a little bit the dynamic at the negotiations from what you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they're trying to keep them going. I mean, it's the same - it's basically the same American diplomatic team that's in Doha in Qatar, this tiny microstate in the Middle East, where these talks ar"}
{"id": "973604904", "date": "2021-03-04", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Trump's Deal To End War In Afghanistan Leaves Biden With 'A Terrible Situation'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Were you actually at the negotiating table when you were in Doha?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's really striking. It's - and it's kind of whipsawing because, like, I was in Afghanistan for a few weeks, and Afghanistan is this dramatically beautiful place. Most of your listeners have se"}
{"id": "973604904", "date": "2021-03-04", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Trump's Deal To End War In Afghanistan Leaves Biden With 'A Terrible Situation'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Were you able to notice the reaction on the faces of the Taliban when they'd come in contact with women in bikinis in the hallway or the lobby of the hotel or, even worse, in the elevator? Maybe they wouldn't take the elevator.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no. I was just sort of hanging around outside the room when they were - and I could get them when they were - I could get them when they came out. But I was there when the talks were ongoing."}
{"id": "973604904", "date": "2021-03-04", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Trump's Deal To End War In Afghanistan Leaves Biden With 'A Terrible Situation'", "question_index": 11, "text": "The woman who you were talking about, who's a negotiator now, she survived an assassination attempt. When she first showed up at the negotiating table, her arm was still in a cast because her arm was shattered by bullets.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Initially, the Taliban - the members of the Taliban had a real problem with the women, the women - and particularly the women negotiators for the Afghan government. And the Afghan government was reall"}
{"id": "973604904", "date": "2021-03-04", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Trump's Deal To End War In Afghanistan Leaves Biden With 'A Terrible Situation'", "question_index": 12, "text": "It would probably be very meaningful for the families of soldiers to be able to bring those troops back home.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's an incredible story. So Fawzia Koofi, who lives in Kabul, a member of parliament, really interesting woman - member of parliament for a long time. In fact, 10 years ago - 11 years ago, when she w"}
{"id": "973604904", "date": "2021-03-04", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Trump's Deal To End War In Afghanistan Leaves Biden With 'A Terrible Situation'", "question_index": 13, "text": "To figure out what to do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Definitely. Of course. I think the - but the dilemma is, what would those families feel and the families of other soldiers, but also the American people and also the region, what would everybody feel "}
{"id": "973604904", "date": "2021-03-04", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Trump's Deal To End War In Afghanistan Leaves Biden With 'A Terrible Situation'", "question_index": 14, "text": "All right. Let's take another break here, Dexter. If you're just joining us, my guest is Dexter Filkins. He's a staff writer for The New Yorker. His new article is titled \"Last Exit From Afghanistan.\" We'll talk more after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, because they have to decide. I mean, it's on the table. So - you know, there is a deal on the table signed by President Trump saying, by May 1, all American troops leave, or the war starts again"}
{"id": "973604904", "date": "2021-03-04", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Trump's Deal To End War In Afghanistan Leaves Biden With 'A Terrible Situation'", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Dexter Filkins, a staff writer for The New Yorker. His new article is titled \"Last Exit From Afghanistan: Will Peace Talks With The Taliban And The Prospect Of An American Withdrawal Create A Breakthrough Or A Collapse?\" As part of the agreement that Trump signed with the Taliban last year, the U.S. is supposed to withdraw all its remaining troops by May 1 of this year. Meanwhile, the Taliban have been stepping up their attacks, moving in on cities and carrying out assassinations - not of Americans, but of Afghans. Dexter Filkins started covering Afghanistan in the late '90s and also covered the war in Iraq. His book \"The Forever War\" is an award-winning classic about those wars. We recorded our interview yesterday. So there's a lot at stake for the Afghan people now, and a lot of the future of Afghanistan is going to depend on how President Biden decides to handle honoring the peace agreement or not, pulling out troops or not, his involvement - his administration's involvement in the future of Afghanistan. Let's talk about what's at stake for Afghanistan because, you know, we invaded Afghanistan after 9/11. That was just slightly under 20 years ago. I mean, the anniversary is on September 11 of this year, the anniversary of the al-Qaida attacks. And al-Qaida was hiding out in Afghanistan, given refuge by the Taliban, who were in control of Afghanistan then. You visited Afghanistan when the Taliban were in control of the country. Just tell us a little bit about what life was like under the Taliban so we can really understand what's at stake now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, because they have to decide. I mean, it's on the table. So - you know, there is a deal on the table signed by President Trump saying, by May 1, all American troops leave, or the war starts again"}
{"id": "973604904", "date": "2021-03-04", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Trump's Deal To End War In Afghanistan Leaves Biden With 'A Terrible Situation'", "question_index": 16, "text": "Can you describe how Kabul has physically changed with the help of American money and American troops and NATO troops? I mean, we invested a lot. Some of it might be for nothing, but some of it - I mean, you can physically and - you know, in addition to the new freedoms that were won for women, you can physically see the differences. Like, in terms of, like, just, like, the buildings, the infrastructure, how has Kabul changed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my gosh. It was a long time ago. I made my first trip in 1998, when the Taliban were the government. And al-Qaida was there, and there were kind of, you know, rumors about training camps. But I re"}
{"id": "973604904", "date": "2021-03-04", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Trump's Deal To End War In Afghanistan Leaves Biden With 'A Terrible Situation'", "question_index": 17, "text": "That's so interesting because not only are they living in, like, a medieval or pre-medieval sense of society, they haven't been to Kabul in 20 years. They're living in a time bubble. So that's a really interesting perception.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my gosh. It's changed so much. I mean, when I first went there in the '90s, when the Taliban were in the government, there were barely any cars. There were horse-drawn carriages. Half the building"}
{"id": "973604904", "date": "2021-03-04", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Trump's Deal To End War In Afghanistan Leaves Biden With 'A Terrible Situation'", "question_index": 18, "text": "Are they, like, the official leadership of the Taliban now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's the strangest thing. So most of these - most of the Taliban negotiators were living in this kind of pre-modern society. They were taken prisoner in 2001 or 2002. They were sent to Guantanamo, whe"}
{"id": "973604904", "date": "2021-03-04", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Trump's Deal To End War In Afghanistan Leaves Biden With 'A Terrible Situation'", "question_index": 19, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is New Yorker staff writer Dexter Filkins. His new article is titled \"Last Exit From Afghanistan.\" We'll talk more after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's a good question. They are. I mean, they are, in fact. There are battlefield commanders and people who are closer to the field, you know, in Pakistan and in Afghanistan. But the interestin"}
{"id": "973604904", "date": "2021-03-04", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Trump's Deal To End War In Afghanistan Leaves Biden With 'A Terrible Situation'", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with New Yorker staff writer Dexter Filkins. His new article is titled \"Last Exit From Afghanistan: Will Peace Talks With The Taliban And The Prospect Of An American Withdrawal Create A Breakthrough Or A Collapse?\" So if the older men, the older Taliban who spent so many years in prisons and are now basically being put up, basically, in a luxurious house arrest in Doha, they - it seems like they're probably pretty out of touch, as you've described. They haven't seen Kabul in a really long time, in many years. There's so many things in their country that they don't really know about from a firsthand situation. So what does that mean for their war, for their future as leaders?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's a good question. They are. I mean, they are, in fact. There are battlefield commanders and people who are closer to the field, you know, in Pakistan and in Afghanistan. But the interestin"}
{"id": "973604904", "date": "2021-03-04", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Trump's Deal To End War In Afghanistan Leaves Biden With 'A Terrible Situation'", "question_index": 21, "text": "So what exactly is America's role in the negotiations now between the Afghan government and the Taliban?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's, like, the big question. I mean, the plan, the kind of American plan, is get the Afghan government, get the Taliban together, and if it all works, you know, we have a cease-fire, and then there"}
{"id": "973604904", "date": "2021-03-04", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Trump's Deal To End War In Afghanistan Leaves Biden With 'A Terrible Situation'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Is the goal of the negotiations, like, a power-sharing agreement between the Taliban and the Afghan government? Because the Taliban doesn't strike me as a power-sharing kind of group or as a group that's at all interested in compromise.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Americans are not in the room. Like, they're very consciously - do not come in the room. It's like, it's yours, and we're not going to get involved because the moment we walk into the room, everyt"}
{"id": "973604904", "date": "2021-03-04", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Trump's Deal To End War In Afghanistan Leaves Biden With 'A Terrible Situation'", "question_index": 23, "text": "OK then.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's a really good question. I - the goal is - yes, the goal is, like, an interim government. You take, like, the government that's in Afghanistan now and the Taliban, and you put them together,"}
{"id": "973604904", "date": "2021-03-04", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Trump's Deal To End War In Afghanistan Leaves Biden With 'A Terrible Situation'", "question_index": 24, "text": "So what is the point of this, really? It's like all or nothing for them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's a really good question. I - the goal is - yes, the goal is, like, an interim government. You take, like, the government that's in Afghanistan now and the Taliban, and you put them together,"}
{"id": "973604904", "date": "2021-03-04", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Trump's Deal To End War In Afghanistan Leaves Biden With 'A Terrible Situation'", "question_index": 25, "text": "You visited a town in Afghanistan. This is a town where the Taliban had taken control recently because you visited in the winter. So what was this town like under Taliban control now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "that they are. They say they are. I think we just don't know yet. And I think a lot of that is sort of contingent, you know, on what happens. It's just going to be contingent on events."}
{"id": "973604904", "date": "2021-03-04", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Trump's Deal To End War In Afghanistan Leaves Biden With 'A Terrible Situation'", "question_index": 26, "text": "So you drove around with a Taliban sheikh. And he was bragging - that's where we killed a judge. That's where we blew up a vehicle from the Afghan intelligence agency. That must have been a strange experience.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what was remarkable about it to me was it's a neighborhood in Kabul. And so it's a neighborhood in the capital. And that - 10 years ago when, you know, NATO troops were all over the country, tha"}
{"id": "973604904", "date": "2021-03-04", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Trump's Deal To End War In Afghanistan Leaves Biden With 'A Terrible Situation'", "question_index": 27, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is New Yorker staff writer Dexter Filkins. His new article is titled \"Last Exit From Afghanistan.\" We'll talk more after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was in - he got into my car. And he said, I'm the mayor. And he - Mayor Ali, Sheikh Ali. And he gave me a tour of the neighborhood. And he was very relaxed and kind of soft spoken and pretty confide"}
{"id": "973604904", "date": "2021-03-04", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Trump's Deal To End War In Afghanistan Leaves Biden With 'A Terrible Situation'", "question_index": 28, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with New Yorker staff writer Dexter Filkins. His new article is titled \"Last Exit From Afghanistan: Will Peace Talks With The Taliban And The Prospect Of An American Withdrawal Create A Breakthrough Or A Collapse?\" Last year, Trump signed a peace agreement with the Taliban in which the U.S. agreed to withdraw all its troops from Afghanistan by May 1, which is less than two months away, leaving President Biden with some tough choices. You also visited the president of Afghanistan. Would you describe the security surrounding him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was in - he got into my car. And he said, I'm the mayor. And he - Mayor Ali, Sheikh Ali. And he gave me a tour of the neighborhood. And he was very relaxed and kind of soft spoken and pretty confide"}
{"id": "973604904", "date": "2021-03-04", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Trump's Deal To End War In Afghanistan Leaves Biden With 'A Terrible Situation'", "question_index": 29, "text": "What is he most worried about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "perfectly normal after that. You know, I found him in his office. And we had a nice chat."}
{"id": "973604904", "date": "2021-03-04", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Trump's Deal To End War In Afghanistan Leaves Biden With 'A Terrible Situation'", "question_index": 30, "text": "Dexter, I'm wondering what it was like for you in Afghanistan on this trip that you took in December and January. First of all, I mean, you know, COVID is raging around the world. I don't know what the status of the pandemic is in Afghanistan. But were you concerned about that? Were you vaccinated? What could you do to protect yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it's safe to say that the president of Afghanistan feels abandoned. He's not a happy camper right now. He has basically - more or less, he said to me, look; I'm the president of Afghanis"}
{"id": "973604904", "date": "2021-03-04", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Trump's Deal To End War In Afghanistan Leaves Biden With 'A Terrible Situation'", "question_index": 31, "text": "We're coming close to the 20th anniversary of 9/11. Do you think a lot about what that anniversary might have in store? Do you think that there's any, you know, ISIS, al-Qaida, Taliban planning retaliatory anniversary attacks?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "when I got there. But COVID in Afghanistan is raging. And I - it was very strange. I mean, I felt like, on some days, I was the only person in the country wearing a mask. And if you talk to the Afghan"}
{"id": "973604904", "date": "2021-03-04", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Trump's Deal To End War In Afghanistan Leaves Biden With 'A Terrible Situation'", "question_index": 32, "text": "Dexter Filkins, thank you so much for coming back to FRESH AIR. Thank you for your reporting. And I'm so glad it was a safe trip for you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, dear, I hope not. I mean, I think, you know, what - you know, I was there at Ground Zero on 9/11, you know, at the World Trade Center, what was left of it. And, my gosh, if anyone would have told "}
{"id": "973604904", "date": "2021-03-04", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Trump's Deal To End War In Afghanistan Leaves Biden With 'A Terrible Situation'", "question_index": 33, "text": "Dexter Filkins is a staff writer at The New Yorker. His new article is titled \"Last Exit From Afghanistan.\" If you'd like to catch up on interviews you missed - like our interviews with Eliot Higgins, the founder of Bellingcat, Derek DelGaudio, a magician and high-stakes poker cheater, or Lee Isaac Chung, the writer and director of the new film \"Minari,\" which just won a Golden Globe for Best Foreign Language Film - check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much. Thank you so much."}
{"id": "973604904", "date": "2021-03-04", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Trump's Deal To End War In Afghanistan Leaves Biden With 'A Terrible Situation'", "question_index": 34, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with assistance today from Charlie Kyer (ph). Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Kayla Lattimore. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavey-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much. Thank you so much."}
{"id": "978635443", "date": "2021-03-18", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Now that Donald Trump is out of office and can't claim presidential immunity, he's facing two investigations into possible criminal conduct. One was opened last month by a county prosecutor in Georgia who's investigating Trump's efforts to change the state's election results. The larger investigation is being led by Manhattan's district attorney, Cyrus Vance Jr., who's looking into Trump's financial business practices, examining the possibility that Trump and The Trump Organization engaged in tax, banking and insurance fraud. If Trump is charged, he'd become the first former president charged with a criminal offense. He could end up doing prison time. In a new article about this investigation published in The New Yorker, my guest Jane Mayer writes that this is one of the most significant legal showdowns in American history. It's about much more than a financial investigation; it's a stress test of the American justice system. Mayer is The New Yorker's chief Washington correspondent. Her article is published in the March 22 issue of the magazine. If you're looking forward on The New Yorker website, the title on the site is \"Can Cyrus Vance, Jr., Nail Trump?\" Jane Mayer, welcome back to FRESH AIR. In what way is this investigation and would this trial, if it happens, be a stress test of the criminal justice system?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "978635443", "date": "2021-03-18", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?", "question_index": 1, "text": "You know, some people think, look; we should just move on. Like, Trump, his time is over. He's out of office. Let's focus on the present and the future. And I think some people are even divided in themselves. You know, part of them wants to move forward with a trial and really get to the bottom of what happened and see him face consequences, and the other part of their self is saying, let's just move on. So you spoke to a bunch of people who think it is really important that we move forward with this investigation. What is their argument?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one of the questions that's been posed by the Trump presidency is whether the president is, in some ways, above the law and beyond prosecution. The lawyers for President Trump when he was presid"}
{"id": "978635443", "date": "2021-03-18", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?", "question_index": 2, "text": "Can you give us an overview of what Cyrus Vance Jr., the Manhattan DA, is looking into?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, first, you know, I just want to say, I'm quite sympathetic to that ambiguity of this and - or ambivalence towards that question because, you know, I think there's a feeling that we don't"}
{"id": "978635443", "date": "2021-03-18", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?", "question_index": 3, "text": "So what are some of the other things Vance is looking into?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it began with one small thing. And people may remember this. There were - it's so obscure sounding. But during the 2016 presidential campaign, there were allegations that Trump paid off two women t"}
{"id": "978635443", "date": "2021-03-18", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?", "question_index": 4, "text": "One victory that Cyrus Vance has already scored is with the Supreme Court, because the Supreme Court ruled last month that Trump had to turn over his taxes and other financial records to this investigation. What's the importance of that decision, not only in this case, but as a precedent?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So if you look at the Cohen situation, in one way, it's about sort of fraudulent business practices, that these hush-money payments were described as legal payments and maybe deducted as a tax-deducti"}
{"id": "978635443", "date": "2021-03-18", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?", "question_index": 5, "text": "What was the decision, the Supreme Court decision, based on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, and so this has been this ferocious fight. For years, Trump has said he was going to make public his tax returns. But he said he couldn't because they were under audit. And so he's hidden them a"}
{"id": "978635443", "date": "2021-03-18", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?", "question_index": 6, "text": "I think we need to take a short break here. So let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jane Mayer, chief Washington correspondent for The New Yorker. Her new article is about the Manhattan DA's criminal investigation into Donald Trump's financial business practices. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was based on the idea that a president - even a president or a former president must comply with an investigation, that nobody is immune from just having to comply with the basic mechanics of the l"}
{"id": "978635443", "date": "2021-03-18", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?", "question_index": 7, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jane Mayer, chief Washington correspondent for The New Yorker. Her new article is about the criminal investigation into Donald Trump's financial business practices. The investigation is being led by Cyrus Vance Jr., the Manhattan DA who recently announced he'll be retiring at the end of this year. Mayer's article is in the March 22 edition of The New Yorker. It's also on the magazine's website under the title \"Can Cyrus Vance, Jr., Nail Trump?\" So Cy Vance's office, his team now has access to an incredible amount of information about Trump. And who knows what they're going to find there. Do you think they might expand the investigation as they examine what are actually in these financial documents?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was based on the idea that a president - even a president or a former president must comply with an investigation, that nobody is immune from just having to comply with the basic mechanics of the l"}
{"id": "978635443", "date": "2021-03-18", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?", "question_index": 8, "text": "You report on where the Vance team has been storing the financial records that were released after the Supreme Court decision. Tell us about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, they could very well. I mean, they're just crawling over these records. And, I mean, people have said to me that they run so many pages. Apparently, Trump, at some point, just with a single ye"}
{"id": "978635443", "date": "2021-03-18", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?", "question_index": 9, "text": "Did you get a look at it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah, as a reporter, I was trying to find out - OK, this is this momentous moment where the executive branch is forced to turn over just years of records that a local prosecutor's office, the di"}
{"id": "978635443", "date": "2021-03-18", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?", "question_index": 10, "text": "Did they build the room especially for this hard drive? Or did the room, this vault-like room, already exist?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did not. I looked at photographs of it. It's kind of amazing-looking. The walls look metallic. And they have these bolts that are soldered around it and then these gigantic metal doors that look lik"}
{"id": "978635443", "date": "2021-03-18", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?", "question_index": 11, "text": "The investigation that Cyrus Vance Jr. is leading appears to be focused largely on Trump's business practices before taking office. What's the reason why the focus is before he became president?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The room preexisted the hard drive. It's part of a very sophisticated cyber lab that the DA's office has that's the first of its kind for a local prosecutor in the country. It's a very unusual office."}
{"id": "978635443", "date": "2021-03-18", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?", "question_index": 12, "text": "If Trump is convicted, which in itself would be unprecedented, how realistic is it that he would actually face prison time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, these were the potential crimes that came to light as they began to probe the payoffs to Stormy Daniels during the 2016 campaign. And so it kind of grew organically from that. And in som"}
{"id": "978635443", "date": "2021-03-18", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?", "question_index": 13, "text": "So as you point out in the article, if he's found guilty, he could be sent to prison. That is a possibility. But you're right that a felony conviction wouldn't disqualify Trump from a second term. And I was frankly astonished to read that. I mean, most people who have a felony conviction, it's really hard for them to get any kind of job. To think that with a felony conviction you could become president is, I think, astonishing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "People I've talked to who know Trump, including - I think it was Barbara Res who was an engineer who worked with the Trump Organization and for a number of years. She said to me, he will never, ever s"}
{"id": "978635443", "date": "2021-03-18", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?", "question_index": 14, "text": "So after the Supreme Court decided in late February in favor of the investigation and decided that the investigation could get access to Trump's taxes and financial records, Cyrus Vance Jr., Manhattan's DA, told you that he was going to retire from that position at the end of the year, that he would not be running for reelection. This is an elected position. You are the one who broke the story. Were you astonished that you were in the middle of this story and it turns out that the head of the legal team is going to be leaving before the investigation is through?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We were all surprised, too, at The New Yorker. I have to say that several of us thought that it was among the requirements in the Constitution were that you couldn't be a convicted felon. It's not. It"}
{"id": "978635443", "date": "2021-03-18", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well, but will Vance have enough information to know whether Trump should be charged or not before the end of December when he resigns?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I mean, I was sitting on this information for a little while and waiting for the moment when Vance was ready to make it public. As I had, you know, interviewed him on background on that particula"}
{"id": "978635443", "date": "2021-03-18", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?", "question_index": 16, "text": "Then if they decide they are going to press charges, what happens after that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They actually - from the reporting I've done, it seems they think they will know. And that was also some of the news that was in this piece is that they think they're going to wrap up this investigati"}
{"id": "978635443", "date": "2021-03-18", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?", "question_index": 17, "text": "Well, let's pick it up here after we take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jane Mayer. She's chief Washington correspondent for The New Yorker. Her new article is about the Manhattan DA's criminal investigation into Donald Trump's financial business practices. We'll be back after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, the thing that's most complicated about this case and makes it really hard is that in order for this to be a criminal act, they have to prove that there was criminal intent, that Trump i"}
{"id": "978635443", "date": "2021-03-18", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Jane Mayer, chief Washington correspondent for The New Yorker. Her new article is about the criminal investigation into Donald Trump's financial business practices, examining the possibility that Trump and The Trump Organization engaged in tax, banking and insurance fraud. If Trump is charged, he'd become the first former president charged with a criminal offense. The investigation is being led by Cyrus Vance Jr., Manhattan's district attorney, who announced last month that he'll be retiring at the end of the year. The team investigating Donald Trump's financial business practices, from all that you've learned, is trying to flip a couple of people. Michael Cohen, Trump's former lawyer, has been cooperating with this investigation. They're trying to flip, from what you learned, Allen Weisselberg, who was Trump's chief financial - or The Trump Organization chief financial officer, who previously worked for Trump's father. So what would the significance be if they could flip Weisselberg?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, the thing that's most complicated about this case and makes it really hard is that in order for this to be a criminal act, they have to prove that there was criminal intent, that Trump i"}
{"id": "978635443", "date": "2021-03-18", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?", "question_index": 19, "text": "One of the ways they think they might be able to do that, according to your reporting, is to get at him through his two sons. What would that strategy look like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I mean, if there is a financial crime committed by Donald Trump, everybody says that Allen Weisselberg would know it. He has managed Trump's money flow throughout Trump's entire professional caree"}
{"id": "978635443", "date": "2021-03-18", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?", "question_index": 20, "text": "In other words, to make a deal - like, we won't prosecute your sons if you cooperate.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So he's got two boys, grown boys, and one of them works for a company called Ladder Capital, which is - has made many of the loans to Trump for his various projects. I think they've loaned something l"}
{"id": "978635443", "date": "2021-03-18", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?", "question_index": 21, "text": "Yeah, very. Yeah. So you got a very interesting story from Weisselberg's former daughter-in-law. Tell us that story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. I mean, I've talked to a lot of prosecutors for this story, and one of them said, you know, what you do is you take the chief financial officer and you say you've got 24 hours to decide "}
{"id": "978635443", "date": "2021-03-18", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?", "question_index": 22, "text": "That by Trump giving him these key positions, that he had to follow what Trump wanted.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Jennifer Weisselberg was married to Barry Weissenberg, the son of Alan. And Barry is the one who is - has been managing the skating rink and other properties. And she described - and has document"}
{"id": "978635443", "date": "2021-03-18", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?", "question_index": 23, "text": "She also told you a very interesting story about a shiva call. And shiva is the mourning period for Jewish people who've lost somebody in the immediate family, and as part of that mourning process, friends and family come and visit and, you know, kind of surround the bereaved. So what happened during this shiva call?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Maybe - it's more that by The Trump Organization giving perks, like an apartment or help with tuition or cars, stuff like that that is sort of material goods, that it gets the people who work for him "}
{"id": "978635443", "date": "2021-03-18", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?", "question_index": 24, "text": "Is there anyone else that the prosecutors are trying to flip?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, OK, and this was in the context of - she's trying to explain the relationship between Allen Weisselberg, the chief financial officer who the prosecutors want to get to turn against Trump, and hi"}
{"id": "978635443", "date": "2021-03-18", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?", "question_index": 25, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I think that there's probably a panoply of people on the inside who they're working on."}
{"id": "978635443", "date": "2021-03-18", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?", "question_index": 26, "text": "But his insight is real. I mean, you interviewed him before the election, before the 2020 election. And he's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But the Weisselbergs seem to be front and center right now. And the other thing that's going on right now is that the prosecutors have been talking extensively to Michael Cohen, the former lawyer to T"}
{"id": "978635443", "date": "2021-03-18", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have to say, of the - yes."}
{"id": "978635443", "date": "2021-03-18", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?", "question_index": 28, "text": "Well, Michael Cohen thinks that Trump's children are also under legal scrutiny, including Ivanka. What is she under scrutiny for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of the people that I interviewed about what might happen and how Trump might deal with losing the election - this was right before the election - nobody was more on target and seemed to understand Tru"}
{"id": "978635443", "date": "2021-03-18", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?", "question_index": 29, "text": "Is that against the law?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She's under scrutiny for something that The New York Times has exposed, which is that at the same time that she was collecting a salary as an employee of The Trump Organization, she was also being pai"}
{"id": "978635443", "date": "2021-03-18", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?", "question_index": 30, "text": "So I think the Manhattan DA investigation is looking into that, but so is the New York state attorney general, Letitia James. So what's the difference between those two investigations into Ivanka Trump and the consultancy fee?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what could be against the law is that The Trump Organization declared the consulting fees tax-deductible business expense and treated it not like salary. That could be a fraud. If - anything whe"}
{"id": "978635443", "date": "2021-03-18", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?", "question_index": 31, "text": "Let me take another break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jane Mayer, chief Washington correspondent for The New Yorker. Her new article is about the Manhattan DA's criminal investigation into Donald Trump's financial business practices. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They do overlap in terms of the specific areas they're looking at, of potential misbehavior by Trump and The Trump Organization. But so far, Letitia James is - has a civil investigation. She's looking"}
{"id": "978635443", "date": "2021-03-18", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?", "question_index": 32, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jane Mayer, chief Washington correspondent for The New Yorker. Her new article is about the criminal investigation into Donald Trump's financial business practices. The investigation is being led by Cyrus Vance Jr., the Manhattan DA who recently announced he'll retire at the end of this year. Mayer's article is in the March 22 issue of The New Yorker. It's also on the magazine's website, under the title \"Can Cyrus Vance, Jr., Nail Trump?\" Deutsche Bank was Trump's biggest lender. And to what extent is Deutsche Bank cooperating with the investigation and talking about the loans that they made to Trump and whatever they know about Trump's finances?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They do overlap in terms of the specific areas they're looking at, of potential misbehavior by Trump and The Trump Organization. But so far, Letitia James is - has a civil investigation. She's looking"}
{"id": "978635443", "date": "2021-03-18", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?", "question_index": 33, "text": "So as you point out, Trump has survived two impeachments, the investigation by special counsel Robert Mueller, half-a-dozen bankruptcies, 26 accusations of sexual misconduct and an estimated 4,000 lawsuits. And, you know, he served as president for four years. These investigations, these accusations, did not stand in the way of his becoming president. Of course, some of them happened after he was president. That didn't stop him from continuing to be president. Is there a chance that he'll actually lose this one? Because this would be big. Like we said, this would be - if he loses, he would be the first former American president to be convicted of criminal charges.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Deutsche Bank is fully cooperating, it sounds like, and so is the insurance company, Aon, that Trump dealt with. So you have the sense that Trump is surrounded by organizations that he has done busine"}
{"id": "978635443", "date": "2021-03-18", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?", "question_index": 34, "text": "Who are some of the people on Vance's team, and what does that tell you about the legal strategy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I think there's absolutely a chance that he could face serious charges and be convicted. I mean, this is no joke. This is - you know, as Michael Cohen says, this is the investigation that keeps hi"}
{"id": "978635443", "date": "2021-03-18", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?", "question_index": 35, "text": "Why would you hire somebody who defended white collar crime to help prosecute white collar crime?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The biggest change that's taken place on Vance's team is he has brought in a man named Mark Pomerantz, who is a really highly regarded and seasoned lawyer in New York, to be - he swore him in as a spe"}
{"id": "978635443", "date": "2021-03-18", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?", "question_index": 36, "text": "I think we need to take a short break here, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jane Mayer, chief Washington correspondent for The New Yorker. Her new article is about the Manhattan DA's criminal investigation into Donald Trump's financial business practices. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Good question. But apparently, what the answer is is that he understands all the holes through which a potential white collar criminal might escape. He knows how to close the hatches. And so he's just"}
{"id": "978635443", "date": "2021-03-18", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?", "question_index": 37, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jane Mayer, chief Washington correspondent for The New Yorker. Her new article is about the criminal investigation into Donald Trump's financial business practices. The investigation is being led by Cyrus Vance Jr., the Manhattan DA who recently announced he'll be retiring at the end of this year. Mayer's article is in the March 22 edition of The New Yorker. It's also on the magazine's website under the title, \"Can Cyrus Vance, Jr., Nail Trump?\" In addition to all the investigations Trump is facing, he's also in financial trouble. Tell us a little bit about the kind of debt that he owes now and why he owes so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Good question. But apparently, what the answer is is that he understands all the holes through which a potential white collar criminal might escape. He knows how to close the hatches. And so he's just"}
{"id": "978635443", "date": "2021-03-18", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?", "question_index": 38, "text": "And that's money that might have been going to the Republican National Committee if it wasn't going to Trump. It's creating a bit of a rift in the Republican Party, even though I think a lot of Republicans aren't admitting that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Trump is under a lot of financial pressure. If you step back and take a look at the situation, he has debts coming due of hundreds of millions of dollars worth of debts coming due at this point. And h"}
{"id": "978635443", "date": "2021-03-18", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?", "question_index": 39, "text": "So, you know, getting back to the fact that Cyrus Vance is retiring at the end of the year during this ongoing investigation. You describe this investigation as the most significant legal showdown in American history. So why is Vance leaving before he finishes it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think you're absolutely right about that. I mean, he is just a magnet for money."}
{"id": "978635443", "date": "2021-03-18", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?", "question_index": 40, "text": "It's still surprising that he'd leave in the middle of such an investigation. But I guess if he stayed, it would be another four years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I thought that was pretty mysterious, too. He's 66 years old. He's already served three terms. They are four-year terms. And he had made up his mind before the Trump case, really, that he felt t"}
{"id": "978635443", "date": "2021-03-18", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?", "question_index": 41, "text": "Do you think that Vance's leaving will weaken or jeopardize the case in any way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It would be another four years, though, of course, he could always resign partway through it. I mean, many people, many lawyers would regard this as the case of a lifetime. I think that Vance feels th"}
{"id": "978635443", "date": "2021-03-18", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?", "question_index": 42, "text": "Jane Mayer, thank you so much for coming back to our show. It's always such a pleasure to talk with you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I think the answer is unknown, but I certainly think it throws a lot of questions into it. A lot depends on who takes over after him and whether this team, including Mark Pomerantz, stays on. "}
{"id": "978635443", "date": "2021-03-18", "guest": "Jane Mayer", "title": "Could Trump Be The 1st U.S. President Charged With A Criminal Offense?", "question_index": 43, "text": "Jane Mayer is the chief Washington correspondent at The New Yorker. Her article about the criminal investigation into Donald Trump's finances, \"Trump In The Crosshairs,\" is in the March 22 issue of The New Yorker on the magazine's website. It's titled \"Can Cyrus Vance, Jr., Nail Trump?\" If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, like our interview with Jon Batiste, who was at the piano and played during our conversation, or with Deborah Feldman, whose memoir \"Unorthodox: The Scandalous Rejection Of My Hasidic Roots\" inspired the Netflix series \"Unorthodox,\" check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Kayla Lattimore. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Therese Madden directed today's show. We're happy to end today's show with some great news from our film critic, Justin Chang. His wife just had a baby. Congratulations from all of us at FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So great to be with you, Terry."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 0, "text": "So we heard Loretta Lynn singing her song, \"I'm A Honky Tonk Girl,\" and then Lee Ann Womack from the new Loretta Lynn tribute, \"Coal Miner's Daughter.\" Loretta Lynn, what a great pleasure to have you on the show. Thank you so much for coming.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) So turn that jukebox way up high. And fill my glass up while I cry. I've lost everything in this world, and now I'm a honky-tonk girl."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 1, "text": "Now, did you pick the performers on the new tribute CD, and did you talk with them at all about the songs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. It's really nice to be on your show."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 2, "text": "Now, the song we just heard - that's the first song you wrote. It was your first record released in 1960. You say you wrote it in 20 minutes on a $17 guitar that your husband bought for you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I didn't talk to them. I just told my manager who I would like to have on the - you know, the record. And the next thing I knew, they were here, and we did the album. We had a good time. Me and Sh"}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 3, "text": "...Because he thought you sang well. And you wrote a song because he told you to. Do you think you ever would have written or performed if your husband didn't say, that's what you should do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 4, "text": "So when you wrote \"Honky Tonk Girl\" with absolutely no songwriting experience, how did you approach writing a song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I wouldn't have because I was too bashful. I wouldn't get out in front of people. I wouldn't - you know, I was really bashful. And I wouldn't - I would have never sang in front of anybody."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 5, "text": "Did you say the toilet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I just sat down with my guitar. I was outside. In fact, I was leaning up against the old toilet out there on the West Coast in Washington state."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 6, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The old toilet, yeah."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 7, "text": "So what made you think of the story that you tell in \"Honky Tonk Girl\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I sat there and wrote \"Honky Tonk Girl\" and \"Whispering Sea.\""}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 8, "text": "And had you hung out at honky-tonks, or did you know them from songs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think I probably listened to a bunch of people, you know, their songs and stuff. And I figured, well, I can - if they can write, I can, too. So I just said, hey, I'm going to tell a story. And"}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 9, "text": "So you were doing some performing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. When I first started writing, my husband got me a job at this little bar. And me and a steel player and my brother - he played the fiddle and sang. So we sang together. And so we really had a good"}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 10, "text": "I see.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I just had started."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 11, "text": "But at home, you sang.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In fact, I had never sang in front of anybody till my husband pushed me out there, you know? I'd never been out and sang for anybody."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 12, "text": "So when you recorded your first single, \"Honky Tonk Girl,\" you were 24. You'd already been married for 11 years because you got married when you were 13, and you already had four children. Do I have that right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I rocked the babies to sleep. And in Kentucky, when I was growing up with my sisters and brothers, we all sang and rocked the babies to sleep, you know? But that was about as far as we ever did, you k"}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 13, "text": "And the twins came a little bit later.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had four kids."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 14, "text": "What was your life like as a wife and mother before you started recording?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, the twins come later."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 15, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It wasn't easy. Me and my husband both worked. I took care of the farmhouse. I cleaned and cooked for 36 ranch hands."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 16, "text": "Wait. So you cooked and cleaned for 36 ranch hands and had four children.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And - yeah, before I started singing. And so singing was easy. I thought, gee whiz, this is an easy job."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 17, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure did. Paid the rent on the old house that we lived in. And that's what I did to make the rent, yeah."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 18, "text": "So when you made your first appearance on the Opry, which was the same year that you recorded \"Honky Tonk Girl\"...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 19, "text": "...You weren't used to performing on such a prestigious stage in front of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 20, "text": "...An audience like that. Did you know how to perform onstage in a place like the Opry?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 21, "text": "Right", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not really. I just got up there with my guitar, and I sang. I mean, I just did it just like I was doing it at home, you know? I never thought about it being the Grand Ole Opry because if I had have, I"}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 22, "text": ". It's so much like what you do every day.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not really. I just got up there with my guitar, and I sang. I mean, I just did it just like I was doing it at home, you know? I never thought about it being the Grand Ole Opry because if I had have, I"}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 23, "text": "My guest is Loretta Lynn. So the next song we're going to hear is a song that you first recorded in 1966, \"Don't Come Home A-Drinkin' (With Lovin' On Your Mind).\" And this is a great song. We're going to hear your version. But first I want to hear the story of how you wrote it. You'd already had about six years of songwriting experience behind you. You probably were no longer leaning against the toilet when you", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 24, "text": "- when you wrote this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 25, "text": "Doo's your husband - was your late husband, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was probably out at the - Doo had fixed me a little writing room at this time out in Goodlettsville."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 26, "text": "And at this point, did you feel like, I know how to write a song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Doo is my husband, yes. And he's the only one I've ever had. And so he fixed me this little writing room, and I'd go out there, and I'd write. And this was one of the songs that I wrote, was \"Don't Co"}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 27, "text": "Now, you've said that your husband is in every song that you've written in a large way or in a small way...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. When I wrote \"Don't Come Home A-Drinkin',\" I knew I could write because I'd had quite a few on the charts by that time."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 28, "text": "Were you thinking of him when you wrote this song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "if I write a song, he's in there somewhere."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 29, "text": "Would he come home after drinking like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 30, "text": "Was this song intended to send him a message at all?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, sure. If a man drinks, he's going to come home drinking. He like to drink."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 31, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not really. I probably told him many times. I didn't have to sing about it."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 32, "text": "Well, let's hear the song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 33, "text": "This is \"Don't Come Home A-Drinkin',\" recorded in 1966 by Loretta Lynn.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 34, "text": "And it was a No. 1 country music chart hit.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 35, "text": "That was Loretta Lynn recorded in 1966. And there's a new Loretta Lynn tribute CD. And on that CD, that song is performed by Gretchen Wilson. Now, when you started performing, Patsy Cline was your mentor until she died.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Well, you thought I'd be waiting up when you came home last night. You'd been out with all the boys. And you ended up half tight. But liquor and love, they just don't mix. Leave the bottle o"}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 36, "text": "So she must have really related to what you were going through.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But, you know, she hadn't been in the business that long when I come to Nashville. She'd only been singing two or three years and - yeah."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 37, "text": "What were some of the things that she taught you that really helped you a lot, things relating to - you know, from clothing to performing style to dealing with the music industry.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 38, "text": "Yeah, go ahead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she kind of helped me..."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 39, "text": "What did she tell you about how to dress?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know, with the style and everything that I was - you know, I was in blue jeans and a T-shirt or blue jeans and just a Western shirt. And she taught me a lot, how to dress and..."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 40, "text": "My guest is Loretta Lynn. We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 41, "text": "My guest is country music star Loretta Lynn. I want to play another song that you wrote. And this was a song that was actually pretty controversial at the time it came out. And it's called \"Rated 'X'.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 42, "text": "And I'm going to let you describe what the song's about.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 43, "text": "OK. And what I want to do, I want to go to the tribute CD. The White Stripes have a really good reworked, like, reinterpreted version of this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 44, "text": "And I know you've worked with Jack White before. He produced a terrific album of yours...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 45, "text": "...In 2004 called \"Van Lear Rose.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 46, "text": "So do you want to say anything about the White Stripes version of your song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 47, "text": "OK. So this is the song Loretta Lynn wrote. She recorded it in 1971. It's called \"Rated 'X'.\" And here's the White Stripes from the Loretta Lynn tribute album, \"Coal Miner's Daughter.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think whatever Jack does is good. I mean, you can't - I mean, he's good. You have to love him. So this is good."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 48, "text": "That's the White Stripes from the new Loretta Lynn tribute album, \"Coal Miner's Daughter.\" And, now, we were talking before about writing from a woman's point of view, which \"Rated X\" most certainly is, you know, about what it's like to be a divorced woman when men think that you're available and try to take advantage of you and you have a reputation. So why was the song controversial?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Well, if you've been a married woman, and things didn't seem to work out, divorce is the key to being loose and free. But you're going to be talked about. Everybody knows that you've loved o"}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 49, "text": "When you called it \"Rated 'X',\" I mean, do you think some people thought, oh, this is going to be a very provocative, sexy", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was because, you know, you're - been a married woman. I think when you write about it, they take it to heart, too, you know, they - people do. So I think that was it. It just starts out, if"}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 50, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was because, you know, you're - been a married woman. I think when you write about it, they take it to heart, too, you know, they - people do. So I think that was it. It just starts out, if"}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 51, "text": "...Song because it's called \"Rated 'X'.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. You know, a lot of the..."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 52, "text": "Now, something that was even more controversial than \"Rated 'X'\" was your song \"The Pill,\" which is about...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. A lot of the disc jockeys, you know, banned it before they even listened to it. And, you know, after it got way up in the charts, and they all flipped the record, started listening to it and pla"}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 53, "text": "This has some lyrics that I think, you know, really were controversial in some country music circles at the time. And the lyrics include, this old maternity dress I've got is going in the garbage. And you've set this chicken your last time because now I've got the pill.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 54, "text": "I'm tearing down this brooder house because now I've got the pill.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 55, "text": "So the song sounds autobiographical in some ways. I'm not saying that you are necessarily angry in the way that the character in the song is angry. But you had six children.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 56, "text": "You lost three.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had six kids. I lost three."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 57, "text": "Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I lost three."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 58, "text": "Oh. So you had six and lost three others? Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was about five and six - well, it wasn't - you know, I lost them before they were born."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 59, "text": "That's a lot of pregnancies.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So..."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 60, "text": "Yeah. Right. OK. Stating the obvious. Did you share the song's anger?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 61, "text": "Let's hear it. And this was released in 1975...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I sure didn't like it when I got pregnant a few times, you know? It's hard for a woman to have so many kids. And, well, at the time, I guess I had four. And then I got pregnant and had - you kno"}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 62, "text": "...Recorded in 1972. This is Loretta Lynn, \"The Pill.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 63, "text": "That's Loretta Lynn, recorded in 1972. It was released in '75. The song is called \"The Pill.\" Now, you've said that you never even used the pill as birth control", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You wined me and dined me when I was your girl, promised if I'd be your wife, you'd show me the world. But all I've seen of this old world is a bed and a doctor bill. I'm tearing down your b"}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 64, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You wined me and dined me when I was your girl, promised if I'd be your wife, you'd show me the world. But all I've seen of this old world is a bed and a doctor bill. I'm tearing down your b"}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 65, "text": "I see. Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, if I'd had it, I'd have used it. At the time I..."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 66, "text": "Well, so you write that there's a lot you didn't know about, that you were 13 when you got married in 1947. And you say you didn't even...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, because even - back when I was having all the kids, we didn't have birth control pills. Or if they did, I didn't know anything about them."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 67, "text": "No. You said you didn't know anything about sex...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "?"}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 68, "text": "...Or even pregnancy. You say when you got pregnant, you didn't even know the word. Is that right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 69, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't know. I guess we just called it having a baby. We didn't call it pregnant. Back in Butcher Holler, there was a lot of things we didn't know..."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 70, "text": "When I think of you getting married at 13, it just seems so young.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 71, "text": "What made you think that you were ready?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it is. It is way too young, you know?"}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 72, "text": "So when you got married about a year afterwards, you moved to the state of Washington.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Don't ask me. I was 13."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 73, "text": "Far away. Did you feel lost for a while when you moved away from...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Washington state."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 74, "text": "...Your family and everything you knew?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 75, "text": "Wow. I was thinking what it must've been like for you to be, you know, so far away from home at the age of, like, 13, 14, 15...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And here I was, 3,000 miles away two months after he married me."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 76, "text": "...Having children already. You probably had no idea you were ever going to become famous.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 77, "text": "Now, there's one kind of song you've written that I haven't asked you about, and that is the I am so angry, you'd better be careful, because if you take my man, I will actually hit you kind of song.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. We're listening to Terry's interview with country music star Loretta Lynn. Her life story was made famous in the 1980 film \"Coal Miner's Daughte"}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 78, "text": "I'm thinking \"Fist City,\" yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Is that \"Fist City\"?"}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 79, "text": "And it's not exactly a sisterhood is powerful kind of song. The lyric is, if you don't want to go to Fist City, you'd better detour around my town or else I'll grab you by the hair of your head and lift you off the ground", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 80, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 81, "text": "So tell me about writing a lyric like this where, I mean, it's like real physical anger.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 82, "text": "There was somebody who tried that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there was an old gal that tried to take Doolittle away from me."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 83, "text": "Did you threaten her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, there was somebody. And - but she didn't make it."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 84, "text": "And not in rhyme", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "with more than a song."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 85, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "with more than a song."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 86, "text": "What did you tell her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 87, "text": "You know what's amazing to me? Like, why would somebody think that they could compete with you? And also, maybe I'm speaking out of turn here, but, like, why would your husband...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just told her back off. She's playing with the wrong deal."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 88, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's how women take your husband away from you all the time. So they all think that, you know."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 89, "text": "Uh-huh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Are you married?"}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 90, "text": "We're OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Don't let him hear this."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 91, "text": "So was it right after this incident that you sat down and wrote the song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 92, "text": "That's fine. But do you think she knew that it was about her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I don't know exactly when I wrote the song, but I'm pretty sure that I had some things in mind when I wrote it. I won't talk about it."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 93, "text": "You imagine that she did?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just imagine."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 94, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I imagine she did."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 95, "text": "Oh, nice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I probably told her."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 96, "text": "OK. So this is \"Fist City.\" This is Loretta Lynn, one of her many hits.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 97, "text": "So that was \"Fist City\" featuring Loretta Lynn. I want to play another song, and this is something more recent than what we've been hearing. This is your collaboration with Jack White. He produced an album of yours in 2004, \"Van Lear Rose.\" How did you meet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You've been making your brags around town that you've been loving my man. But the man I love, when he picks up trash, he puts it in a garbage can. And that's what you look like to me. And wh"}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 98, "text": "Oh, I didn't realize that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I went to Detroit to work. And Jack White came to see me. And of course, he told me about when he was little, he was about 9 years old when \"Coal Miner's Daughter\" came out. He stayed in the theater t"}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 99, "text": "So you're good friends now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. He lives here in Nashville. So yeah."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 100, "text": "That's great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 101, "text": "The track I want to play is called \"Miss Being Mrs.\" You wrote all the songs on this album. And this is one of my favorites. I like the song a lot. And also I just love how stripped down it is. It's just you and a guitar. Is that Jack White on guitar?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We've always been good friends ever since we did the album."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 102, "text": "OK. Do you want to say anything about writing the song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's Jack White."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 103, "text": "All right. Good enough. So this is Loretta Lynn from the 2004 album \"Van Lear Rose\" produced by Jack White, who's accompanying her on guitar.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I don't like to talk about the way I write songs. I just let people hear what I'm talking about."}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 104, "text": "That's my guest, Loretta Lynn, with Jack White on guitar from the album \"Van Lear Rose,\" which", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I lie here all alone in my bed of memories. I'm dreaming of your sweet kiss. Oh, how you loved on me. I can almost feel you with me. Here in this blue moon light, oh, I miss being Mrs. tonig"}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 105, "text": "Jack White produced of Loretta Lynn songs in 2004. Your husband, who we've spoken a little bit about, died in 1996. And you didn't perform for a while after that. How has your life changed since he's been gone?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I lie here all alone in my bed of memories. I'm dreaming of your sweet kiss. Oh, how you loved on me. I can almost feel you with me. Here in this blue moon light, oh, I miss being Mrs. tonig"}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 106, "text": "You know, as so many people are, I think, kind of baffled a little bit by the relationship, because it seems in some ways to have been a very rocky relationship, and at the same time, you stayed with him throughout.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, not for the better. I mean, I miss him so much, you know. He kind of kept things going like me recording. And he'd always tell me how good I was, you know. And that always helped a lot. And he w"}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 107, "text": "You don't need him anymore to tell him you're a good singer, right? I mean, you know that, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, we had a - I think we had a relationship. We fought one day, and we'd love the next. So, I mean, that - to me, that's a good relationship. If you can't fight and if you can't tell each other what "}
{"id": "979171904", "date": "2021-03-19", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "Loretta Lynn Traces Her Roots From 'Coal Miner's Daughter' To Country Stardom", "question_index": 108, "text": "It's really been great to talk with you. Thank you so very much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well. I don't know about that, but I try."}
{"id": "981164240", "date": "2021-03-25", "guest": "Elizabeth Neumann", "title": "Capitol Siege Has Been A Success For Recruiting Extremists, Former DHS Staffer Says", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The increasing threat of domestic terrorism from right-wing extremists was something my guest, Elizabeth Neumann, warned the Trump White House about when she served as the assistant secretary of homeland security for counterterrorism and threat reduction in the Trump administration. Trump not only ignored the threat, she says, he added fuel to the fire of extremism. So she quit in April 2020. Before the 2020 election, she wrote about why she thought Trump was so dangerous for our country. Lately, she's been writing articles and op-eds about domestic terrorism, the storming of the Capitol and what it means for the future of our national security. She sees a connection between many people on the far right and Christian nationalism, which teaches that America is not only a Christian nation, it's God's chosen nation. As a Christian, she finds this very disturbing. Elizabeth Neumann has more than 20 years' experience in homeland security, dating back to when she served on George W. Bush's Homeland Security Council. She initially joined Trump's Department of Homeland Security in 2017 as then Secretary John Kelly's deputy chief of staff. She's now co-director of the Republican Accountability Project, which was founded to push back against the lies and conspiracy theories about voter fraud and claims that the 2020 election was rigged, and to hold accountable elected leaders who have supported those claims and tried to overturn a legitimate election. Elizabeth Neumann, welcome to FRESH AIR. I want to start with the January 6 insurrection. In a lot of ways, it did not succeed. It didn't succeed in overturning the election. It didn't return Donald Trump to the presidency. Over 300 people have been charged by the Justice Department. Some of the Q followers were disillusioned that the prophecy about Trump remaining president didn't come true. So in that sense, the insurrection was a failure. Are there ways in which it was a success for the far right?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "981164240", "date": "2021-03-25", "guest": "Elizabeth Neumann", "title": "Capitol Siege Has Been A Success For Recruiting Extremists, Former DHS Staffer Says", "question_index": 1, "text": "Are there ways that January 6 empowered the right-wing groups, the hate groups, the white supremacist groups, the militias?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me, Terry. And unfortunately, yes, it was viewed as a success for white supremacists, for anti-government extremists and, quite frankly, probably, many of our enemies overseas. They "}
{"id": "981164240", "date": "2021-03-25", "guest": "Elizabeth Neumann", "title": "Capitol Siege Has Been A Success For Recruiting Extremists, Former DHS Staffer Says", "question_index": 2, "text": "Which of the groups want to see a race war and want to see, like, a civil war that leads to a white nation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. In particular, if you look at white supremacists, they have this ideology behind them. And not every white supremacist holds to this. But going back 40, 50 years to the '80s when the white suprem"}
{"id": "981164240", "date": "2021-03-25", "guest": "Elizabeth Neumann", "title": "Capitol Siege Has Been A Success For Recruiting Extremists, Former DHS Staffer Says", "question_index": 3, "text": "Well, did January 6 and the insurrection have the effect of bringing these groups together and creating a previously un-existing alliance?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "one of the hard things in studying extremism, especially today, is that increasingly, we have these groups kind of morphing. An individual may have multiple ideologies that they have cobbled together "}
{"id": "981164240", "date": "2021-03-25", "guest": "Elizabeth Neumann", "title": "Capitol Siege Has Been A Success For Recruiting Extremists, Former DHS Staffer Says", "question_index": 4, "text": "Are you saying that when Trump was president, he was able to accomplish the kinds of things that these disparate groups, the Proud Boys, the white supremacist groups, the Three Percenters, all the accelerationists (ph), what they were not able to accomplish?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "you had groups that maybe wouldn't have interconnected before, have an in-person, in-real-life experience, which during a pandemic is kind of rare to begin with, where they're meeting people. So that "}
{"id": "981164240", "date": "2021-03-25", "guest": "Elizabeth Neumann", "title": "Capitol Siege Has Been A Success For Recruiting Extremists, Former DHS Staffer Says", "question_index": 5, "text": "Let's take a short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Elizabeth Neumann. She served as assistant secretary of Homeland Security for counterterrorism and threat reduction in the Trump administration. She quit in April 2020 because of her concerns that Trump was fueling extremism instead of fighting it. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a great way to frame it. Yes. You know, if you're a Boogaloo boy or you're a white supremacist, your aim is for the U.S. government to collapse so you can establish kind of your own form of gov"}
{"id": "981164240", "date": "2021-03-25", "guest": "Elizabeth Neumann", "title": "Capitol Siege Has Been A Success For Recruiting Extremists, Former DHS Staffer Says", "question_index": 6, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview about the growing threat of domestic terrorism with Elizabeth Neumann. She's worked in Homeland Security ever since 9/11. She served as assistant secretary of Homeland Security for counterterrorism and threat reduction in the Trump administration. She quit in April 2020 because of her concerns that Trump was actually fueling extremism. If what you're saying is true, that Trump himself inspired a lot of the insurrectionists on January 6, do you think that he should be held legally accountable for that? And would there be any way of doing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a great way to frame it. Yes. You know, if you're a Boogaloo boy or you're a white supremacist, your aim is for the U.S. government to collapse so you can establish kind of your own form of gov"}
{"id": "981164240", "date": "2021-03-25", "guest": "Elizabeth Neumann", "title": "Capitol Siege Has Been A Success For Recruiting Extremists, Former DHS Staffer Says", "question_index": 7, "text": "So some of the people who stormed the Capitol were members of the Oath Keepers or the Three Percenters which recruit from the military and from the police. And some of the people I'm referring to here were former members of the military or the police. And I'm wondering how much that concerns you if you see, for instance, the military as a training ground, not only for protecting the country, but also for the people who are accelerationists and want to start a civil war here.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do believe he should be held legally accountable. I don't know. I'm not a lawyer by background, so I'm following the investigations closely, hoping that they might discover connections. But I'm gues"}
{"id": "981164240", "date": "2021-03-25", "guest": "Elizabeth Neumann", "title": "Capitol Siege Has Been A Success For Recruiting Extremists, Former DHS Staffer Says", "question_index": 8, "text": "And let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Elizabeth Neumann. She served as assistant secretary of Homeland Security for counterterrorism and threat reduction in the Trump administration. She quit in April 2020 because of her concerns that Trump was fueling extremism instead of fighting it. We'll be right back after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, certainly it's very concerning that we have former military, maybe even current military or current National Guard participating in any extremist group, especially extremist groups that are vi"}
{"id": "981164240", "date": "2021-03-25", "guest": "Elizabeth Neumann", "title": "Capitol Siege Has Been A Success For Recruiting Extremists, Former DHS Staffer Says", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Elizabeth Neumann about the growing threat of domestic terrorism. She served as assistant secretary of homeland security for counterterrorism and threat reduction in the Trump administration. She quit in April 2020 because of her concerns that Trump was not only ignoring the threat of domestic terrorism, he was fueling it. She's now co-director of the Republican Accountability Project, which was founded to push back against the lies and conspiracy theories about voter fraud and claims that the 2020 election was rigged, and to hold accountable elected leaders who have supported those claims and tried to overturn a legitimate election. During your years working in Homeland Security, was there a turning point for you when you realized that these far-right extremist groups, including white supremacist groups, including groups that want to create a civil war, that they were more than just kind of background fringe, that they posed a serious threat to our national security?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, certainly it's very concerning that we have former military, maybe even current military or current National Guard participating in any extremist group, especially extremist groups that are vi"}
{"id": "981164240", "date": "2021-03-25", "guest": "Elizabeth Neumann", "title": "Capitol Siege Has Been A Success For Recruiting Extremists, Former DHS Staffer Says", "question_index": 10, "text": "When you're talking about Christchurch, you're talking about the massacre at a mosque in New Zealand.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that there are two moments that stand out to me. The first was in August of 2017 when we had Charlottesville, the protests that turned violent. And people were killed. It wasn't so much that w"}
{"id": "981164240", "date": "2021-03-25", "guest": "Elizabeth Neumann", "title": "Capitol Siege Has Been A Success For Recruiting Extremists, Former DHS Staffer Says", "question_index": 11, "text": "So I want to ask you about when you were assistant secretary of homeland security for counterterrorism and threat reduction in the Trump administration. Did you talk to Trump directly about the threat of domestic extremism?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Several mosques."}
{"id": "981164240", "date": "2021-03-25", "guest": "Elizabeth Neumann", "title": "Capitol Siege Has Been A Success For Recruiting Extremists, Former DHS Staffer Says", "question_index": 12, "text": "But you knew that Trump didn't want to use the word domestic terrorism. And - because you've written about how he stood in the way of the department talking about the threat of domestic terrorism. What was his problem with that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did not. But I am aware that several of my secretaries did. And I say several. We had five during my tenure there."}
{"id": "981164240", "date": "2021-03-25", "guest": "Elizabeth Neumann", "title": "Capitol Siege Has Been A Success For Recruiting Extremists, Former DHS Staffer Says", "question_index": 13, "text": "Trump demonized so many groups when he announced his campaign. He demonized Mexicans. One of his first actions was the Muslim travel ban. The pandemic - it's the China virus. And suddenly, there's attacks against Asian Americans. He's accused of sexually harassing and assaulting women. He certainly insulted women. He said things that were insulting to Jews. And I'm wondering, following, like, spikes in activity when Trump would do any of these things that I just mentioned, could you see that? Could you see spikes in organizing activity in online comments? Like, how could you tell the impact that that was having? What impact do you think it had?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This was shortly after the attacks in El Paso. This is August 2019. And we had already been working on some prevention capabilities that we were trying to convince Congress to fund. We were in the pro"}
{"id": "981164240", "date": "2021-03-25", "guest": "Elizabeth Neumann", "title": "Capitol Siege Has Been A Success For Recruiting Extremists, Former DHS Staffer Says", "question_index": 14, "text": "It's clear from what you're saying that you think when Trump was president, he activated a lot of hatred. He activated a lot of people to take action on their hatred, either - whether it was a death threat or storming the Capitol. And also, I think you've pointed out that although Trump can turn this on, there's no indication he can turn it off. And so what are the implications of that for our future?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "On the inside, when we were - when I was at DHS, we were not able to track that type of information - several reasons for that. But what is interesting, though, is over time you've had a number of res"}
{"id": "981164240", "date": "2021-03-25", "guest": "Elizabeth Neumann", "title": "Capitol Siege Has Been A Success For Recruiting Extremists, Former DHS Staffer Says", "question_index": 15, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Elizabeth Neumann. And she served as assistant secretary of Homeland Security for counterterrorism and threat reduction in the Trump administration. She quit in April 2020 because of her concerns that Trump was fueling extremism instead of fighting it. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think you said that so well. He's activated something that existed before he was here. We have to recognize that it was created through political and cultural means, and we need politics and culture"}
{"id": "981164240", "date": "2021-03-25", "guest": "Elizabeth Neumann", "title": "Capitol Siege Has Been A Success For Recruiting Extremists, Former DHS Staffer Says", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview about the growing threat of domestic terrorism with Elizabeth Neumann. She's worked in Homeland Security ever since 9/11. She served as assistant secretary of Homeland Security for counterterrorism and threat reduction in the Trump administration. She quit in April 2020 because of her concerns that Trump was actually fueling extremism. When you quit the Trump administration in 2020 and left your job in Homeland Security, what was the turning point for you where you decided you couldn't stay anymore? Was there a specific turning point?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think you said that so well. He's activated something that existed before he was here. We have to recognize that it was created through political and cultural means, and we need politics and culture"}
{"id": "981164240", "date": "2021-03-25", "guest": "Elizabeth Neumann", "title": "Capitol Siege Has Been A Success For Recruiting Extremists, Former DHS Staffer Says", "question_index": 17, "text": "What about the policy of immigration on the southern border with Mexico, of separating children from their parents and children ending up basically in cages? And many of those children have never been reunited with their parents because no one can find their parents. And that's in part because no one was really keeping track. There wasn't enough paperwork that was done. I don't know whether that part of policy came under your purview. But, you know, how did you deal with that aspect?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it was probably most directly El Paso, coming out of that. And, you know - when you're outside, it's very easy to see the evil. When you're in the middle of it, you're constantly pushing bac"}
{"id": "981164240", "date": "2021-03-25", "guest": "Elizabeth Neumann", "title": "Capitol Siege Has Been A Success For Recruiting Extremists, Former DHS Staffer Says", "question_index": 18, "text": "So, you know, we've talked about domestic terrorism. You served in Homeland Security in the George W. Bush administration and in the Trump administration. You're no longer in government. You've been writing. You've been speaking out against Republicans who support the stop the steal point of view. But what do you see for yourself in the future?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Those were dark days. It did not fall under my purview - other people that dealt with immigration issues. When I heard about it, I was sick to my stomach. I attempted to try to - the best I coul"}
{"id": "981164240", "date": "2021-03-25", "guest": "Elizabeth Neumann", "title": "Capitol Siege Has Been A Success For Recruiting Extremists, Former DHS Staffer Says", "question_index": 19, "text": "Elizabeth Neumann, I want to thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a great question. A year ago, this is not what I thought I'd be doing. I certainly have enjoyed spending more time with my kids and getting involved in our local community. And I hope I get to "}
{"id": "981164240", "date": "2021-03-25", "guest": "Elizabeth Neumann", "title": "Capitol Siege Has Been A Success For Recruiting Extremists, Former DHS Staffer Says", "question_index": 20, "text": "Elizabeth Neumann served as assistant secretary of Homeland Security for counterterrorism and threat reduction in the Trump administration. She quit last April and is now the co-director of the Republican Accountability Project, which is pushing back on political conspiracy theories and trying to hold accountable elected leaders who've supported those theories. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me, Terry."}
{"id": "981549708", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Paul Raci", "title": "MC And Actor Riz Ahmed Embraces A New Kind Of Role In 'Sound Of Metal'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Riz Ahmed, welcome to FRESH AIR. Thank you so much for being with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Ruben) Yo, that's it, man. We're done. We're done. Thanks a lot for your time, bro. Appreciate it, OK? We're out, baby. Let's go."}
{"id": "981549708", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Paul Raci", "title": "MC And Actor Riz Ahmed Embraces A New Kind Of Role In 'Sound Of Metal'", "question_index": 1, "text": "After playing someone who has lost his hearing and who hears only noise and distortion, are you noticing sound and sounds in ways that you never did before?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having me."}
{"id": "981549708", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Paul Raci", "title": "MC And Actor Riz Ahmed Embraces A New Kind Of Role In 'Sound Of Metal'", "question_index": 2, "text": "I don't know American Sign Language, but it's always been a marvel to me that there can be enough hand signals and body gestures that can cover all of the language. What did you learn about some of the subtleties of sign language?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I learned American Sign Language for the role over seven months. And my sign instructor, Jeremy Stone, who's also a deaf advocate and a kind of leading light in the New York deaf community, real"}
{"id": "981549708", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Paul Raci", "title": "MC And Actor Riz Ahmed Embraces A New Kind Of Role In 'Sound Of Metal'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Well, you think in words because you're - you have your hearing. So I'm wondering if you had to think in words and then translate that into sign language.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, in some ways, I kind of feel that sign language allowed me to communicate more fully than words did. You know, I touched on that a moment ago. But another thing that Jeremy Stone taught me w"}
{"id": "981549708", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Paul Raci", "title": "MC And Actor Riz Ahmed Embraces A New Kind Of Role In 'Sound Of Metal'", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you do at the start, right? I think that's what we often do when we learn a new language. If you're learning French or Urdu or anything like that, then you kind of start off trying to swap words"}
{"id": "981549708", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Paul Raci", "title": "MC And Actor Riz Ahmed Embraces A New Kind Of Role In 'Sound Of Metal'", "question_index": 5, "text": "So, you know, this movie is really about, how do you figure out who you are when, you know, something surprising happens that changes your life and takes away the thing that you thought defined you? In this case, for him, it's the ability to play and listen to music. And you've said that there have been periods of your life when you've experienced something similar to that due to illness or a financial crisis. Can I ask you about those periods?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's like three - it's three fingers on each hand smashed together, and three fingers for R-I-Z. So my sign name is half the hand sign for F up. So - you know, I guess your personality kind of cuts th"}
{"id": "981549708", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Paul Raci", "title": "MC And Actor Riz Ahmed Embraces A New Kind Of Role In 'Sound Of Metal'", "question_index": 6, "text": "Did you have something to turn to when you felt that your livelihood and identity were being threatened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For me, it was these moments in my career, both as a musician and also as an actor, where I was like, I'm not sure if I can continue doing this. And that's been for a variety of different reasons at d"}
{"id": "981549708", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Paul Raci", "title": "MC And Actor Riz Ahmed Embraces A New Kind Of Role In 'Sound Of Metal'", "question_index": 7, "text": "What'd you learn about yourself during those moments?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, hopefully it allows your identity to evolve a little bit. You know, ideally, it's a moment of realizing that these things that you do are part of who you are, but they aren't all of who you are."}
{"id": "981549708", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Paul Raci", "title": "MC And Actor Riz Ahmed Embraces A New Kind Of Role In 'Sound Of Metal'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Fleeting", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I guess it wasn't so much about learning about myself. But I guess a big thing that I've kind of carried with me through the tougher moments is that we don't have any control. And so if you don'"}
{"id": "981549708", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Paul Raci", "title": "MC And Actor Riz Ahmed Embraces A New Kind Of Role In 'Sound Of Metal'", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I guess it wasn't so much about learning about myself. But I guess a big thing that I've kind of carried with me through the tougher moments is that we don't have any control. And so if you don'"}
{"id": "981549708", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Paul Raci", "title": "MC And Actor Riz Ahmed Embraces A New Kind Of Role In 'Sound Of Metal'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, exactly. As soon as you get back..."}
{"id": "981549708", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Paul Raci", "title": "MC And Actor Riz Ahmed Embraces A New Kind Of Role In 'Sound Of Metal'", "question_index": 11, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Riz Ahmed. He stars in the new movie \"Sound Of Metal.\" We'll be right back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...To your normal routine, you're like, come on, yeah. I got to keep going, you know?"}
{"id": "981549708", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Paul Raci", "title": "MC And Actor Riz Ahmed Embraces A New Kind Of Role In 'Sound Of Metal'", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Riz Ahmed. He stars as a punk metal drummer who goes deaf in the new movie \"Sound Of Metal.\" His other films include \"Rogue One: A Star Wars Story,\" \"Jason Bourne,\" \"Nightcrawler\" and \"The Road To Guantanamo.\" He starred in the HBO series \"The Night Of.\" So you're the son of Pakistani immigrants. And your early roles were very much defined by the characters you were playing being Pakistani or Muslim or, in some cases, terrorists or would-be terrorists or people mistaken as terrorists. So did it take a while before you were playing roles that weren't defined like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...To your normal routine, you're like, come on, yeah. I got to keep going, you know?"}
{"id": "981549708", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Paul Raci", "title": "MC And Actor Riz Ahmed Embraces A New Kind Of Role In 'Sound Of Metal'", "question_index": 13, "text": "So your first movie role in 2005 was \"The Road To Guantanamo.\" And this is based on the true story of three British citizens of Pakistani descent who traveled to Afghanistan in 2001 and are mistakenly detained as terrorists and sent to Guantanamo. And these three young men became known as the Tipton Three. So you were traveling with the movie to the Berlin Film Festival, where it won a big award. And on your way back, you were stopped at the airport. And I want you to tell the story of what happened to you when you were stopped and questioned.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it's something that's happened in parallel. You know, there's been those roles earlier on in my career, like, for example, \"The Road To Guantanamo\" or \"Britz,\" which took place in this p"}
{"id": "981549708", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Paul Raci", "title": "MC And Actor Riz Ahmed Embraces A New Kind Of Role In 'Sound Of Metal'", "question_index": 14, "text": "So we were talking about how your kind of breakthrough recording \"Post 9/11 Blues\" was recorded the same year as your first movie, \"The Road To Guantanamo.\" And this is a satirical song. It's kind of lighthearted in spite of what it's talking about. It reminds me of some, like, just like satirical, lighthearted, early rap records. So let's hear \"Post 9/11 Blues.\" This is Riz Ahmed.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies. Let's get back to Terry's interview recorded in December with Riz Ahmed. He's nominated for an Oscar for his starring performance as a punk metal drummer who goes d"}
{"id": "981549708", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Paul Raci", "title": "MC And Actor Riz Ahmed Embraces A New Kind Of Role In 'Sound Of Metal'", "question_index": 15, "text": "That was Riz Ahmed and his recording \"Post 9/11 Blues\" that was recorded in 2006. And that became big on the Internet. It went viral. How did it go viral, do you know? Like, it was before Twitter, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) What can I do? I got the post-9/11 blues. On the telly, nothing but the post-9/11 news - war, Iraq, suicide bombs. Stop looking limelight and make some room for my songs. Anyway, it's all re"}
{"id": "981549708", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Paul Raci", "title": "MC And Actor Riz Ahmed Embraces A New Kind Of Role In 'Sound Of Metal'", "question_index": 16, "text": "So a single that you recently released is called \"Once Kings.\" And that - maybe I'm not hearing it right - but that seems, I think, to refer to Partition in India when, in 1947, India became primarily a Hindu country and Pakistan predominantly Muslim. And a lot of Muslims in India were were attacked and really, like, driven out. It was a very, very bloody period. And is that what it's referring to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. This is back in the days of MySpace. I think people just started sharing it. I think, you know, usually when things start getting shared like that, you're managing to tap into or articulate some"}
{"id": "981549708", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Paul Raci", "title": "MC And Actor Riz Ahmed Embraces A New Kind Of Role In 'Sound Of Metal'", "question_index": 17, "text": "How did this affect your family? I imagine it would be maybe your grandparents or great-grandparents' generation that experienced Partition. Were they driven out of India? And did they flee to Pakistan?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. There's lots of references to Partition, both on \"The Long Goodbye,\" when I kind of go through Britain's colonial history. Kind of the album takes you all the way from, you know, when these doom"}
{"id": "981549708", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Paul Raci", "title": "MC And Actor Riz Ahmed Embraces A New Kind Of Role In 'Sound Of Metal'", "question_index": 18, "text": "So I'm glad you mentioned a train. The part of the lyric that I want to play starts with this sickness began on a train. Is that train literal or metaphorical?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, it's kind of a complicated story. And I've got a big family, so different branches of the family experience different things. But my own grandfather was a student when he was asked to go i"}
{"id": "981549708", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Paul Raci", "title": "MC And Actor Riz Ahmed Embraces A New Kind Of Role In 'Sound Of Metal'", "question_index": 19, "text": "So let's hear this part of \"Once Kings\" by my guest, Riz Ahmed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In my family's history, I think there were some people who took the train, other people took the boat. Some people stayed in India. But train rides and train massacres were a huge and horrific feature"}
{"id": "981549708", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Paul Raci", "title": "MC And Actor Riz Ahmed Embraces A New Kind Of Role In 'Sound Of Metal'", "question_index": 20, "text": "That was an excerpt of \"Once Kings,\" a single that was released this year by my guest, Riz Ahmed, who is a rapper and an actor. And his new film is called \"Sound Of Metal,\" and it's streaming now on Amazon Prime. Well, Riz Ahmed, it's been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) Always impatient, now an in-patient. NHS serving up dal - yo, we made it. Drip on my wrist is some steroids and chemo. Yeah, the sickness more common in Asians. The sickness all come from se"}
{"id": "981552082", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Kathryn Hahn", "title": "Actor Kathryn Hahn Says The Best Part Of Her Career Came Post-Kids", "question_index": 0, "text": "So I don't know. It seems to me - and I don't know if you would agree with this - that you're kind of part of the first generation of women who came of age with women screenwriters and directors - and I mean more than one or two - that you had a cohort. And you've worked with some of them. I mean, you've worked with Nicole Holofcener, Tamara Jenkins, to name a few. And I'm wondering if you agree with that, that you're part of the generation - one of the first or maybe the first that had a cohort of women writers and directors.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hahn also starred in the HBO series \"Mrs. Fletcher\" as the divorced mother of a teenaged son who becomes an empty nester, adapted from the novel by Tom Perrotta. And she's known for her roles in the T"}
{"id": "981552082", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Kathryn Hahn", "title": "Actor Kathryn Hahn Says The Best Part Of Her Career Came Post-Kids", "question_index": 1, "text": "You thought it would end your career?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, God. I mean, that sounds terribly thrilling. I think I do feel like the most - that the most satisfying work I've done has been with women for sure, that the most complicated and messy roles I've "}
{"id": "981552082", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Kathryn Hahn", "title": "Actor Kathryn Hahn Says The Best Part Of Her Career Came Post-Kids", "question_index": 2, "text": "So you're 46 now. And some of the roles you've been getting in your 40s are about women dealing with fertility issues.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yes - or change it. Or I'd be stopped being seen or whatever. I'm just so buoyed and galvanized that the juiciest part of it has been post-kids. And not that that is even a choice for everybody."}
{"id": "981552082", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Kathryn Hahn", "title": "Actor Kathryn Hahn Says The Best Part Of Her Career Came Post-Kids", "question_index": 3, "text": "So I want to play an example of one of those films. And this is \"Private Life,\" which was written and directed by Tamara Jenkins. And you play - you and Paul Giamatti play a married couple who've been trying for years to conceive. And you've tried like every kind of fertility treatment. And finally, your doctor says to you, you should try an egg donor because none of these fertility treatments are really working for you. And so in this scene, you've just left the office after getting that message from the doctor. And that is about the last thing that you want to hear. You do not want to use an egg donor. And you and your husband, played by Paul Giamatti, are having a quarrel about that. You speak first.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "981552082", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Kathryn Hahn", "title": "Actor Kathryn Hahn Says The Best Part Of Her Career Came Post-Kids", "question_index": 4, "text": "Yeah. That's Kathryn Hahn and Paul Giamatti in a scene from \"Private Life.\" So when you were in your 20s and wanting to act, did you think that when you were in your 40s, there would be roles like this, of - you know, of women in their 30s or early 40s dealing with fertility issues in a way that so many women could relate to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Rachel Biegler) Whoopdie-doo (ph). What does that make me, the bellhop?"}
{"id": "981552082", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Kathryn Hahn", "title": "Actor Kathryn Hahn Says The Best Part Of Her Career Came Post-Kids", "question_index": 5, "text": "'Cause so many actresses have thought, like, once you reach your 30s - or certainly by 40 - your good roles are behind you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "981552082", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Kathryn Hahn", "title": "Actor Kathryn Hahn Says The Best Part Of Her Career Came Post-Kids", "question_index": 6, "text": "How old were you when you had your first child? And I'm wondering if in your mind there was an age that you thought would be, like, the right age, the best age, to have a child?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. No, I did not. I had no - you know, Terry, like, I - it's funny because I never thought of myself doing anything else with my life. I had no idea of what it would look like or how it would un"}
{"id": "981552082", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Kathryn Hahn", "title": "Actor Kathryn Hahn Says The Best Part Of Her Career Came Post-Kids", "question_index": 7, "text": "By your doctor.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was, I think, 35 - maybe 35 when I got pregnant, I think, maybe 36 when I had him. And it took a second for us to get pregnant. It was definitely not as easy as we thought. And we - I was called a g"}
{"id": "981552082", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Kathryn Hahn", "title": "Actor Kathryn Hahn Says The Best Part Of Her Career Came Post-Kids", "question_index": 8, "text": "Because you were considered at risk.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "981552082", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Kathryn Hahn", "title": "Actor Kathryn Hahn Says The Best Part Of Her Career Came Post-Kids", "question_index": 9, "text": "Why were you crying?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "981552082", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Kathryn Hahn", "title": "Actor Kathryn Hahn Says The Best Part Of Her Career Came Post-Kids", "question_index": 10, "text": "You knew you wanted to act when you were very young, and you got involved with the Cleveland Playhouse, which was regional theater in Cleveland.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview with Kathryn Hahn, who stars in the series \"WandaVision.\""}
{"id": "981552082", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Kathryn Hahn", "title": "Actor Kathryn Hahn Says The Best Part Of Her Career Came Post-Kids", "question_index": 11, "text": "And as - when you were young - you could tell me how young - you were a Curtain Puller. So tell us how old you were and what it means to be a Curtain Puller.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "981552082", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Kathryn Hahn", "title": "Actor Kathryn Hahn Says The Best Part Of Her Career Came Post-Kids", "question_index": 12, "text": "Did you like being on stage in front of people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was a Curtain Puller at the Playhouse starting at around - in around kindergarten, I started taking classes there. And I - a Curtain Puller is what, much to my chagrin, is just in name only. It had "}
{"id": "981552082", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Kathryn Hahn", "title": "Actor Kathryn Hahn Says The Best Part Of Her Career Came Post-Kids", "question_index": 13, "text": "You were a regular on a children's show called \"Hickory Hideout\" that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It always terrified me. I never had the, like - have to be on stage. It still terrifies me. But it was like I just had to do it. I loved the ensemble. I loved the feeling after. I loved the feeling ri"}
{"id": "981552082", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Kathryn Hahn", "title": "Actor Kathryn Hahn Says The Best Part Of Her Career Came Post-Kids", "question_index": 14, "text": "Yeah. It was produced out of the Cleveland NBC affiliate and shown on a lot of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Talking about heightened and holy."}
{"id": "981552082", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Kathryn Hahn", "title": "Actor Kathryn Hahn Says The Best Part Of Her Career Came Post-Kids", "question_index": 15, "text": "...Other NBC stations. Would you describe the show and your role in it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "981552082", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Kathryn Hahn", "title": "Actor Kathryn Hahn Says The Best Part Of Her Career Came Post-Kids", "question_index": 16, "text": "I thought we should hear a clip of you. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- a clubhouse in a tree in, I think, the Metropark in Cleveland. And it was about two squirrels named Nutso and Shirley Squirrely. There was a puppet called Know-It-Owl, who also lived in there. And i"}
{"id": "981552082", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Kathryn Hahn", "title": "Actor Kathryn Hahn Says The Best Part Of Her Career Came Post-Kids", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yeah. And I think you're around 12 or 13 when this episode was made. And so you're talking to two squirrel puppets.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, should we?"}
{"id": "981552082", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Kathryn Hahn", "title": "Actor Kathryn Hahn Says The Best Part Of Her Career Came Post-Kids", "question_index": 18, "text": "And the squirrel puppets are worried about getting a new baby sister or brother.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "981552082", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Kathryn Hahn", "title": "Actor Kathryn Hahn Says The Best Part Of Her Career Came Post-Kids", "question_index": 19, "text": "And they're ready to run away. OK, so here's Kathryn Hahn and two squirrel puppets.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God."}
{"id": "981552082", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Kathryn Hahn", "title": "Actor Kathryn Hahn Says The Best Part Of Her Career Came Post-Kids", "question_index": 20, "text": "You went to Yale School of Drama in your late 20s. And I may be wrong, but I think that most people who go to Yale School of Drama do it...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Nutso Squirrely) Ha. You'll learn all right. You'll learn you'll never want to be a babysitter."}
{"id": "981552082", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Kathryn Hahn", "title": "Actor Kathryn Hahn Says The Best Part Of Her Career Came Post-Kids", "question_index": 21, "text": "...Like, right after college or, like - yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, you're right."}
{"id": "981552082", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Kathryn Hahn", "title": "Actor Kathryn Hahn Says The Best Part Of Her Career Came Post-Kids", "question_index": 22, "text": "Did it work out how you wanted it to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "until the character roles start coming in. And I'll just have, like, three years of at least being able to just take a breath and just work. And..."}
{"id": "981552082", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Kathryn Hahn", "title": "Actor Kathryn Hahn Says The Best Part Of Her Career Came Post-Kids", "question_index": 23, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I just remember I did a play there, this Jon Robin Baitz play. I wish I could name - remember the name of it, and - but anyway, he talks about having a rigorous and monastic experience. And I ju"}
{"id": "981552082", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Kathryn Hahn", "title": "Actor Kathryn Hahn Says The Best Part Of Her Career Came Post-Kids", "question_index": 24, "text": "So then you had to go on auditions. What were some of your worst?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I - it was - yeah, that was the best. We would be rehearsing at 2 in the morning, and I'd get up and get my muffin and my iced coffee and watch my beautiful classmates perform scenes in - for role"}
{"id": "981552082", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Kathryn Hahn", "title": "Actor Kathryn Hahn Says The Best Part Of Her Career Came Post-Kids", "question_index": 25, "text": "Why did you need a suit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Promptly get on the - and never get the gigs, but..."}
{"id": "981552082", "date": "2021-03-26", "guest": "Kathryn Hahn", "title": "Actor Kathryn Hahn Says The Best Part Of Her Career Came Post-Kids", "question_index": 26, "text": "Kathryn Hahn, it's been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Because I would just not - just, like, deodorant everywhere. There were so many."}
{"id": "983783988", "date": "2021-04-02", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Remembering Larry McMurtry, A Writer Who Helped Define The American West", "question_index": 0, "text": "So you grew up on a cattle ranch.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course, I come from ranching stock. I had nine uncles who were cattlemen. My father was a cattleman. Some of my uncles were old enough to participate a little bit in the last years of the trail dri"}
{"id": "983783988", "date": "2021-04-02", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Remembering Larry McMurtry, A Writer Who Helped Define The American West", "question_index": 1, "text": "Did your father expect you to keep on the ranch and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, on a small ranch in central - north central Texas, just below the Red River near a town called Wichita Falls, about a hundred miles west of Dallas, Fort Worth Northwest."}
{"id": "983783988", "date": "2021-04-02", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Remembering Larry McMurtry, A Writer Who Helped Define The American West", "question_index": 2, "text": "What was the life that you imagined you wanted when you were growing up in Texas, realizing that you wanted to get off the cattle ranch and you wanted to get out of this small town?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think he might have liked it. It was evident pretty early that this was not going to be my skill. It was also - my father was - you know, was not dumb. And he saw that the cattle business had alread"}
{"id": "983783988", "date": "2021-04-02", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Remembering Larry McMurtry, A Writer Who Helped Define The American West", "question_index": 3, "text": "Were there bookstores around when you were growing up...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I wanted a life in literature, essentially, and I realized that quite young. I didn't imagine that I would become a writer, but I knew that I could become a reader. And so reading drew me. Readi"}
{"id": "983783988", "date": "2021-04-02", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Remembering Larry McMurtry, A Writer Who Helped Define The American West", "question_index": 4, "text": "...So you could get what you wanted?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "983783988", "date": "2021-04-02", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Remembering Larry McMurtry, A Writer Who Helped Define The American West", "question_index": 5, "text": "When you started writing books about the Old West, was your idea to further the myth, to debunk the myth of the West or revise the myths of the West?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had almost no books until I got to Rice. I did have a cousin who, as he was going off to war in 1941 - I was, like, 5 at the time - stopped by the ranch house on his way to what turned out to be the"}
{"id": "983783988", "date": "2021-04-02", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Remembering Larry McMurtry, A Writer Who Helped Define The American West", "question_index": 6, "text": "Give us an example of something in the story that you see as a critique of the myth of the West.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I didn't start really writing books about the Old West. I think \"Lonesome Dove\" was my 10th novel. Most of my books were set in the contemporary West and still are. In fact, in my fiction, I"}
{"id": "983783988", "date": "2021-04-02", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Remembering Larry McMurtry, A Writer Who Helped Define The American West", "question_index": 7, "text": "Well, one of the main characters in your series, Lorena, is - I mean, she's a prostitute during some of the story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the - for example, the scathing denunciation that Clara Allen makes of Captain Call when he arrives at her house with Gus' body when she tells him why she didn't marry Gus, although he was her g"}
{"id": "983783988", "date": "2021-04-02", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Remembering Larry McMurtry, A Writer Who Helped Define The American West", "question_index": 8, "text": "She's kind of forced into it, really. I mean...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. She's a prostitute. And she's a whore and - in \"Lonesome Dove.\" And that's what kind of..."}
{"id": "983783988", "date": "2021-04-02", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Remembering Larry McMurtry, A Writer Who Helped Define The American West", "question_index": 9, "text": "Did your grandmother give you insights about what it was like to be a woman in the early days of Western settlement?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there's a character, strangely enough, in \"Dead Man's Walk,\" the movie that we're - the book that's being filmed now, when they're debating - two men are talking about a woman named Matilda Jane"}
{"id": "983783988", "date": "2021-04-02", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Remembering Larry McMurtry, A Writer Who Helped Define The American West", "question_index": 10, "text": "Were you hurt?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My grandmother - I don't remember my grandmother ever even speaking to me, although, I lived with her. She lived in our house until she died. And I was a boy of 10 when she died. She had raised 12 chi"}
{"id": "983783988", "date": "2021-04-02", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Remembering Larry McMurtry, A Writer Who Helped Define The American West", "question_index": 11, "text": "Did the place in Texas that you grew up in resemble the small town that you wrote about in \"The Last Picture Show?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Sam) Oh, she growed up. She was just a girl then, really."}
{"id": "983783988", "date": "2021-04-02", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Remembering Larry McMurtry, A Writer Who Helped Define The American West", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was. That's where \"The Last Picture Show\" was filmed. I have the unusual circumstance of having seen one of my stories filmed in the place where it would have happened. \"The Last Picture Show"}
{"id": "983783988", "date": "2021-04-02", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Remembering Larry McMurtry, A Writer Who Helped Define The American West", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, they have restaurants called Texasville. And..."}
{"id": "983783988", "date": "2021-04-02", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Remembering Larry McMurtry, A Writer Who Helped Define The American West", "question_index": 14, "text": "That's funny because I think the reaction to \"The Last Picture Show\" was pretty bad when it was first published, the reaction in your town, because of the sexuality in the book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it's rather odd. I've inundated that little town with fiction. And, you know, people don't - most people think that they must be some character in one of the books, they're not quite sure which. An"}
{"id": "983783988", "date": "2021-04-02", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Remembering Larry McMurtry, A Writer Who Helped Define The American West", "question_index": 15, "text": "Is it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a little overblown..."}
{"id": "983783988", "date": "2021-04-02", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Remembering Larry McMurtry, A Writer Who Helped Define The American West", "question_index": 16, "text": "You know, I was thinking maybe we'd end the interview with a song by your son, James, who's a singer-songwriter. Do you see his songs connected to your writing in any way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Actually, that's because journalists have to have something to write about. And the Baptist minister, indeed, was offended by the movie and one or two other people in town. But, in fact, a lot of p"}
{"id": "983783988", "date": "2021-04-02", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Remembering Larry McMurtry, A Writer Who Helped Define The American West", "question_index": 17, "text": "I want to thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I do. I mean, I think James is remarkable in that he's found a way to work that's not my way - that is, he's not a novelist. He's really more of a musician. But I think that the songs reflect a "}
{"id": "983798897", "date": "2021-04-02", "guest": "G Gordon Liddy", "title": "Remembering Watergate Conspirator G. Gordon Liddy", "question_index": 0, "text": "When do you believe that a person is above the law? Is a person ever above the law?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. G. Gordon Liddy, the former FBI agent who planned the Watergate burglary that led to President Richard Nixon's downfall, died Tuesday at his daughter's home in Virginia. He was 90. "}
{"id": "983798897", "date": "2021-04-02", "guest": "G Gordon Liddy", "title": "Remembering Watergate Conspirator G. Gordon Liddy", "question_index": 1, "text": "So if a president says, yes, I think it's a good idea to bug Democratic National Committee headquarters, or, yes, I think it's a good idea to assassinate a person, then, in that case, it becomes as if it was legal because you've gotten the corroboration...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, a person is never above the law so long as one understands what the law is and certain maxims about the law. First of all, I believe that what Cicero said is correct. The good of the people is the"}
{"id": "983798897", "date": "2021-04-02", "guest": "G Gordon Liddy", "title": "Remembering Watergate Conspirator G. Gordon Liddy", "question_index": 2, "text": "What do you think you could have gotten if the Watergate break-in had worked?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no. It doesn't become - we've got to distinguish here because you're getting into a legal area and a technical area, and I think it's important for us to distinguish. I was engaged in two differ"}
{"id": "983798897", "date": "2021-04-02", "guest": "G Gordon Liddy", "title": "Remembering Watergate Conspirator G. Gordon Liddy", "question_index": 3, "text": "I'd like to get back to the separation that you made between what's legally and what's morally wrong and what's legally and morally OK. One of the things that you were considering doing when you were trying to monitor Daniel Ellsberg was to put LSD in his soup before a speech that he had to give.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, people misunderstood, I think, the purpose of it. They said, gee whiz, Larry O'Brien wasn't there half the time. You know, what's the point? Also, they said, you know, McGovern was the candidate"}
{"id": "983798897", "date": "2021-04-02", "guest": "G Gordon Liddy", "title": "Remembering Watergate Conspirator G. Gordon Liddy", "question_index": 4, "text": "Now, where does it fit into in the spectrum of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. That had been approved from above as a technique to disorient him. Right."}
{"id": "983798897", "date": "2021-04-02", "guest": "G Gordon Liddy", "title": "Remembering Watergate Conspirator G. Gordon Liddy", "question_index": 5, "text": "...Legality and morality?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, elsewhere..."}
{"id": "983798897", "date": "2021-04-02", "guest": "G Gordon Liddy", "title": "Remembering Watergate Conspirator G. Gordon Liddy", "question_index": 6, "text": "When you, G. Gordon Liddy, put acid in someone's soup, or when you consider attempting to assassinate someone, that is different than a person who has had a fair trial, which is the demands in this country. It's something we cherish. In one case, you're taking the law in your hands, and you are being the arbiter of what's right and what's wrong and what's legally correct, what's morally correct.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, no problem with that either because had Ellsberg been a political opponent, I would say that that would have been wrong. Ellsberg was not a political opponent. Ellsberg was someone who was steal"}
{"id": "983798897", "date": "2021-04-02", "guest": "G Gordon Liddy", "title": "Remembering Watergate Conspirator G. Gordon Liddy", "question_index": 7, "text": "In another, it's an organized system with checks and balances in it and either a jury or a judge. Is that correct for you to be...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. You see; the difference is..."}
{"id": "983798897", "date": "2021-04-02", "guest": "G Gordon Liddy", "title": "Remembering Watergate Conspirator G. Gordon Liddy", "question_index": 8, "text": "Begging your pardon, I never wore a long granny dress.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. If I were a gas station attendant, your argument would make sense. But I was working for the president of the United States. And the difference is, as I think I may have mentioned - Cicero said th"}
{"id": "983798897", "date": "2021-04-02", "guest": "G Gordon Liddy", "title": "Remembering Watergate Conspirator G. Gordon Liddy", "question_index": 9, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I say such as yourself."}
{"id": "983798897", "date": "2021-04-02", "guest": "G Gordon Liddy", "title": "Remembering Watergate Conspirator G. Gordon Liddy", "question_index": 10, "text": "OK. I'd like to hear a little bit about some of the things that you did to strengthen your will, which you describe in the book. Can you tell us a little bit about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But in any event - and holding daisies in her hand. But what actually occurred was 125 cities went up. We had the National Guard and paratroopers called out to restore order, bombing of the Capitol of"}
{"id": "983798897", "date": "2021-04-02", "guest": "G Gordon Liddy", "title": "Remembering Watergate Conspirator G. Gordon Liddy", "question_index": 11, "text": "You also tell a story about how you overcame your fear of rats. Could you tell us that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, for strengthening my will, primarily, I did - I used fire because I had a twofold effect. When I was a child, a little child, I happened by accident - because I didn't know what it was - to pick"}
{"id": "983798897", "date": "2021-04-02", "guest": "G Gordon Liddy", "title": "Remembering Watergate Conspirator G. Gordon Liddy", "question_index": 12, "text": "So that worked.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. First thing I did was, again, when I was a child, I would go down underneath the piers on the waterfront and try to confront the rats. And this didn't work very well because, first of all, rats "}
{"id": "983798897", "date": "2021-04-02", "guest": "G Gordon Liddy", "title": "Remembering Watergate Conspirator G. Gordon Liddy", "question_index": 13, "text": "Gordon Liddy, how do you measure yourself to other people in history? Is there someone who you compare yourself to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "983798897", "date": "2021-04-02", "guest": "G Gordon Liddy", "title": "Remembering Watergate Conspirator G. Gordon Liddy", "question_index": 14, "text": "Do you feel at some point, Americans will appreciate what you did when you were with the White House?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I don't think I would rate status as an historical figure."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 0, "text": "Morgan Neville, Merry Clayton, welcome to FRESH AIR. Morgan Neville, you were commissioned to do this movie by its producer, the late Gil Friesen. What led you to Merry Clayton?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Rape, murder - it's just a shot away. It's just a shot away. Rape, murder - it's just a shot away. It's just a shot away. Rape, murder - it's just a shot away. It's just a shot away."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 1, "text": "Can I hear what that sounds like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And you actually did. And it actually blew my mind. She can do it. She can sing anything."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 2, "text": "And no one's going to come at me and say, that was my address she just sang", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) 1202 Telemachus in New Orleans, La."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 3, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) 1202 Telemachus in New Orleans, La."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 4, "text": "Oh, wow. OK. So when Morgan Neville says, Merry Clayton, that you sang with everybody, give us a list of some of the everybody.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was my address in New Orleans."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 5, "text": "OK, speaking of the Stones - so the track that you're probably most famous for in terms of backup singing is \"Gimme Shelter.\" And you tell the story in the movie of how you got the call in the middle of the night to go and sing on this track. So I'd like you to tell us the story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course, the Stones, the guys."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 6, "text": "Jack Nitzsche.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm at home at about 12 - I'd say about 11:30, almost 12 o'clock at night. And I'm hunkered down in my bed with my husband, very pregnant. And we got a call from a dear friend of mine and produc"}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 7, "text": "Did you know who The Rolling Stones were?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Jack Nitzsche. Jack Nitzsche called and said, you know, Merry, are you busy? I said, no, I'm in bed. He says, well, you know, there are some guys in town from England. And they need someone to come "}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 8, "text": "OK, so you go to the studio.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I had no idea who The Rolling Stones were. I had just come off the road with Ray Charles. I had no idea, you know, who the Rolling Stones were."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 9, "text": "You meet Mick Jagger. You meet Keith Richards.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Go to the studio."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 10, "text": "The line is rape, murder - it's just a shot away.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I didn't meet them. They were coming from the back of the studio. I think they had been outside. And, of course, the first one I meet was Keith. And he says, (imitating Keith Richards) oh, hello. "}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 11, "text": "Well, let's hear - one of the interesting things in the movie is that your singing is isolated on it, your...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's just a shot away. And I'm saying, well, what has that got to do with the story? So they told me the gist of what the lyrics were. And I said, oh, OK, that's cool. So then I had to sit on a stool "}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 12, "text": "...Rape, murder - it's just a shot away.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 13, "text": "So let's just hear that track.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 14, "text": "That's Merry Clayton singing her part of \"Gimme Shelter\" with the Rolling Stones. Now, your voice cracks a little bit on murder. Did that bother you or anybody else? Or did that seem what's more authentic, because when singing about this, you'd be in such an excited, you know, state that your voice would likely crack?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Rape, murder, it's just a shot away. It's just a shot away. Rape, murder, yeah, it's just a shot away. It's just a shot away. Rape, murder, it's just a shot away. It's just a shot away, yeah"}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 15, "text": "So what does that mean financially? I assume when you're a backup singer, you get paid a fee for the recording. And whether the records sinks or becomes a big hit, you've been paid. And that's the end.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was really in the moment. And to be honest with you, I was really - wanted to get back home. And I knew that something wonderful was going to come out of it and come out of me for it. But I di"}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 16, "text": "Do you get royalties?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But you do get some royalties from certain songs."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 17, "text": "Right. Did you get royalties for this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You get royalties from certain songs that you do when you do background. It's according to the work that you put in."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 18, "text": "Oh, good for you", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 19, "text": ". So how did the success of \"Gimme Shelter\" affect your career?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 20, "text": "You probably entered the rock world more.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it affected my career because of the association with The Rolling Stones. Things started to look up. You know, everybody wanted me - then everybody wanted me to sing with them. Everybody wanted "}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 21, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 22, "text": "So suddenly, you were probably in this world of, like, white rock singers who were looking for a gospel-tinged sound in their...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was - I became queen diva of the background rock world."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 23, "text": "...Background.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's it."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 24, "text": "So how did you feel about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's it."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 25, "text": "Morgan Neville, you start \"20 Feet From Stardom,\" your documentary about backup singers, with a clip of the Lou Reed hit \"Walk On The Wild Side,\" in which he sings, and the colored girls say. And it's a kind of acknowledgement of a fact that so many white singers have used African American backup singers, you know, in their recordings and in their shows. So can you - in fact, let's just hear that part of the Lou Reed song right here for people who aren't familiar with it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thought it was wonderful. I thought they made a good choice. I thought they made a marvelous choice because there's nothing like having those girls singing next to you, around you, up under you or b"}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 26, "text": "OK. Morgan Neville, why did you want to open your documentary about backup singers with that song? And what does Lou Reed's acknowledgement there", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Doo, doo, doo, do, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, d"}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 27, "text": "mean to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Doo, doo, doo, do, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, d"}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 28, "text": "Merry Clayton, your father was a minister. What was the music you grew up hearing and singing?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2013 interview with backup singer Merry Clayton and with film director Morgan Neville, whose documentary \"20 Feet From Stardom\" won an Academy Award in 201"}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 29, "text": "What was she doing in your father's church?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, boy. I grew up hearing Sam Cooke, The Soul Stirrers, Mahalia Jackson, sitting on Mahalia Jackson's lap in my dad's church. And..."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 30, "text": "Whoa.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she was visiting. She was one of my dad's friends..."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 31, "text": "This must have been some church.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...To the point where..."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 32, "text": "What was the church?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 33, "text": "In New Orleans?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The church was a New Bethel Baptist Church. And..."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, in New Orleans. And everybody that was anybody would come and hang at my dad's church because my dad was a singer also. My dad sung and played piano. But he was also a man of God. He was a minis"}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 35, "text": "So for you, growing up in your father's church was like growing up in the heart of showbusiness", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So much so is that everything that Mahalia Jackson would sing, I would just look at her in awe and mimic everything she would sing. And then they started calling me Little Haley (ph), you know, when I"}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 36, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So much so is that everything that Mahalia Jackson would sing, I would just look at her in awe and mimic everything she would sing. And then they started calling me Little Haley (ph), you know, when I"}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 37, "text": "But on the other hand, he didn't want you to hear secular music, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 38, "text": "Ah, I see. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my dad had no problem with me hearing secular music. Nor did he have a problem with me singing secular music. It was who I sung with, who it was."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 39, "text": "Oh, that is great. That is great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mother wanted to know who it was and what they represented and what would I be singing. You know, when I signed with Bobby Darin, who was the first gentleman to sign me to a record contract, to Cap"}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 40, "text": "So I'm going to play the duet that you recorded with him. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Those were the requirements. Yeah."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 41, "text": "Yes. Did you say you were 14 when this was recorded?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my goodness. You have that?"}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 42, "text": "OK. And this is - what? - about 1963 or '64?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I had to be 14. Yeah."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 43, "text": "OK. So this is the song \"Who Can I Count On.\" And it's Bobby Darin and my guest, Merry Clayton.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 44, "text": "So that was Bobby Darin and my guest Merry Clayton, recorded in about 1963 or '4. And that - Merry Clayton is one of the featured singers in the new documentary about backup singers, \"20 Feet From Stardom.\" And also with us is the film's director, Morgan Neville. Merry Clayton, you sound great on that. And you're just in your early teens.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Who can I count on if I can't count on you? Who can I count on if I can't count on you? Who can I count on if I can't count on you?"}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 45, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I sound like a little, old lady..."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 46, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...That I've been singing 30 years at least."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 47, "text": "How did he hear you? How did Bobby Darin hear you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I don't know how that kind of stuff came out of me at that age, you know?"}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 48, "text": "So let's jump ahead a little in your career. You became a Raelette - one of Ray Charles' backup singers. How did you get to be a Raelette?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli. Let's continue Terry's interview with Merry Clayton, one of the backup singers featured in the 2013 documentary about backup singers, \"20 Feet From Stardom.\" Al"}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 49, "text": "So I want to play one of the tracks you're featured on. And this is \"What I Say,\" and we're going to hear an excerpt of that. So it's Ray Charles with The Raelettes and when my guest Merry Clayton was one of The Raelettes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I got a call from my great friend Billy Preston. And Billy and I grew up in church together. We hung out together. We did shows together from kids. And he said that Ray was auditioning for Raelettes. "}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 50, "text": "So, Merry Clayton, is it gratifying to do that call-and-response thing with Ray Charles? And you probably had to do that night after night.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You make me feel so good. Hey."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 51, "text": "How were you expected to dress and to move on stage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my god, for years. We would almost make a joke out of it. The girls would say, (singing) hey, hey, ho, ho, ho, hey. hey. ho. hey, ho, ho (ph) - shake that thing. And we would laugh. We would just "}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 52, "text": "But he couldn't see. What does that mean, that he would dress you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Our choreographer was Lon Fontaine at that time. And, you know, you had to dress a certain way. Of course, Ray would dress you, and he would check the dresses and make sure that they weren't..."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 53, "text": "Oh, I see.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. He could see length. He could feel fabric. And he knew the designs of the dresses."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 54, "text": "And what - can you describe some of your moves on stage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he made sure Mr. Blackwell designed all of our gowns. So you had to dress a certain way. You had to act a certain way. And you had to carry yourself a certain way. You had to smell good, and you h"}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 55, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you would have to see the moves, honey. I couldn't describe them."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 56, "text": "So what's it like trying to stay on pitch in a large theater? Because often on stage you can't hear very well. You need really good monitors to hear yourself well on stage. Did you sing often where you were supposed to be singing tight harmonies and being in sync with the other Raelettes and with Ray Charles and with the band and you couldn't really hear?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you would have to see the moves, honey. I couldn't describe them."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 57, "text": "So he insisted that things be done right, but I bet you performed with people who didn't do such a good job in making sure everything was right on stage.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this is the thing. Mr. Charles was a stickler for rehearsing. We would get to a city, get off of his plane, get on the bus with all the rest of the band, go to the hotel. They had a room set up "}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 58, "text": "I'm sure they loved every second of you schooling them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, then I had to school them and show them how it was supposed to be done."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 59, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I hope so. I did it with love."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 60, "text": "So probably not with Ray Charles but with a lot of singers, the backup singers are expected to add not only a great voice and maybe some choreography but maybe a little sexuality as well. And I'm wondering if you sang with people who expected you to, you know, be very, like, sexualized on stage.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I hope so. I did it with love."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 61, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'll have to answer that question with a no. They just wanted me for my voice and what I brought to the table. Sexuality had nothing to do with it. I was always sexy. I was born like that."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 62, "text": "That's what I always say.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But - well, I was. That's the truth."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 63, "text": "But you know what I mean. Like, with like - and there's a clip of this in the movie with Ike and Tina Turner.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And what I brought to the table was so wonderful. I, mean, it was automatically sexy. You know what I mean? So that never really entered - I want you to be sexy. How dare you ask me to be sexy? If I'm"}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 64, "text": "I mean, that was some very intentionally sexy stuff going on stage.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 65, "text": "Right. Yes, it was.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But that was Ike Turner."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 66, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That wasn't a Ray Charles or a Joe Cocker..."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 67, "text": "I get your point", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Or a Neil Young or - you know, or a Stevie Wonder. That was Ike Turner."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 68, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Or a Neil Young or - you know, or a Stevie Wonder. That was Ike Turner."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 69, "text": "Well, what they say specifically is he thought of himself as a pimp and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And there's a difference - big, big difference. Just like you said, you know, in the documentary you hear people say, well, you know, he wanted the girls to look, you know, a certain way. He wanted th"}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 70, "text": "And the girls had another word for him, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, and the girls..."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 71, "text": "Morgan Neville, from having interviewed a lot of backup singers for your documentary \"20 Feet From Stardom,\" did you meet singers who felt that the people they were backing up didn't sing as well as the backup singers did?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was the best money there was."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 72, "text": "You don't get into this in the movie, but did some of the women backup singers tell you that they were hit on by people in the band or by the singer they were backing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 73, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, there's a famous joke in the backup world that you could become a Raelette if you let Ray..."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 74, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And could I - may I answer that, please?"}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 75, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I heard that rumor. And many people ask me, so, Mary, you know, you sung with Ray Charles; did you ever let Ray? I said, well, honey - there was a word that my mother taught me very early on, and she "}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 76, "text": "So that was Curtis Amy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Who I married and was married to for 32 years until he died."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 77, "text": "I didn't realize he had been - he was a saxophonist, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The great Curtis Amy."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 78, "text": "I didn't realize he conducted. Oh, wow", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, and a conductor."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 79, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, and a conductor."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 80, "text": "So he was the guy who you were laying beside when you got the call from the Rolling Stones?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was - we met and married from that orchestra. And Ray told him, she's too young; you can't marry sister Merry, she's just a baby. He says, well, man, look; I've talked to her mom and her dad, and I"}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 81, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was - we met and married from that orchestra. And Ray told him, she's too young; you can't marry sister Merry, she's just a baby. He says, well, man, look; I've talked to her mom and her dad, and I"}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 82, "text": "Oh, that's a nice story. How old were you when you got married?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 83, "text": "Oh, that's not so young.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I had to be about 22..."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 84, "text": "No.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Or 23. We got married in the Astrodome in Houston, Texas. We were filming \"Brewster McCloud.\""}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 85, "text": "OK. And the song that you sang in \"Brewster McCloud\" is \"Lift Every Voice.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 86, "text": "Yeah. So why don't we here \"Lift Every Voice\"? - because you sing, you know, quite magnificently on this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Lift Every Voice\" is the title song."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 87, "text": "This is a really stirring song. This song has been called the Black national anthem.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "985363956", "date": "2021-04-09", "guest": "Merry Clayton", "title": "No Longer '20 Feet From Stardom': Singer Merry Clayton Steps Out Of The Background", "question_index": 88, "text": "So this is Merry Clayton from the soundtrack of the 1970 film \"Brewster McCloud.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Black national - yeah."}
{"id": "986731926", "date": "2021-04-13", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates Jr", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. On 'The Black Church' And His Own Bargain With Jesus", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Henry Louis Gates, has written a new book called \"The Black Church.\" That's a companion to the PBS series he hosts of the same name. The book explores the history of African American religions from the days of the trans-Atlantic slave trade to the Black Lives Matter movement. He says Black churches were the first institutions built by Black people and run independent of white society in the U.S. with the earliest Black Christian congregations roughly contemporaneous with the Declaration of Independence. He describes how churches became the foundation of Black religious, political, economic and social life. He also tells his story about the bargain he made with Jesus that led him to the church at age 12. But life eventually led him to become more of an observer than participant in religion. Henry Louis Gates has hosted many PBS series and written companion books exploring the history of African Americans, including the recent book and series on Reconstruction. He also hosts the series \"Finding Your Roots,\" in which, through DNA tests and in-depth genealogical research, he reveals the ancestral history of his well-known guests. Gates is a professor at Harvard, where he directs the Hutchins Center for African and African American Research. Our interview was recorded last Thursday. Henry Louis Gates, welcome back to FRESH AIR. A pleasure to have you back on our show. In the acknowledgements in your book, you thank a list of people for helping you fully realize the awesome significance of the Black church and Black religious beliefs in your own life and in the lives of other people. Let's talk a little bit about your own life. When you were young, your mother was Methodist, your father Episcopalian. You attended your mother's church as a child. Would you describe that church?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "986731926", "date": "2021-04-13", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates Jr", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. On 'The Black Church' And His Own Bargain With Jesus", "question_index": 1, "text": "There's a story behind why you joined the church. Your mother got sick. Your father was taking her to the hospital, but before he took her, she spoke to you. What did she tell you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". You know, it was very strict. It was almost like a Pentecostal church without the shouting and the speaking in tongues. And I joined that church when I was 12 years old."}
{"id": "986731926", "date": "2021-04-13", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates Jr", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. On 'The Black Church' And His Own Bargain With Jesus", "question_index": 2, "text": "A lot of people make bargains with God. Like, if I get better, if I heal, I will devote my life to you. So many people make that bargain and don't keep it. Why did you keep it? Like, what motivated you to take it that seriously and actually follow through?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "is right back here. And I said, no, I want to join the church. And he gasped, and everybody's eyes got big, and they all stood up. He invited me to the altar. Everybody in the church gathered around m"}
{"id": "986731926", "date": "2021-04-13", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates Jr", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. On 'The Black Church' And His Own Bargain With Jesus", "question_index": 3, "text": "Wait, so did you think that you saved your mother's life, that your prayer saved her life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wanted my mother to live, and I was convinced that Jesus had performed a miracle and let my mother live. And the price was that I would join the church. The exchange was that I would give my life to"}
{"id": "986731926", "date": "2021-04-13", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates Jr", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. On 'The Black Church' And His Own Bargain With Jesus", "question_index": 4, "text": "Oh, I remember that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "986731926", "date": "2021-04-13", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates Jr", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. On 'The Black Church' And His Own Bargain With Jesus", "question_index": 5, "text": "Arlene Francis", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, with Miss..."}
{"id": "986731926", "date": "2021-04-13", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates Jr", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. On 'The Black Church' And His Own Bargain With Jesus", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, with Miss..."}
{"id": "986731926", "date": "2021-04-13", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates Jr", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. On 'The Black Church' And His Own Bargain With Jesus", "question_index": 7, "text": "Did you ever find out what was wrong with your mother and did you ever tell your mother this story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, with Miss Frances. Precisely. And we would read and, you know, make the letters and learned cursive, but we didn't call it cursive then. We just called it writing. And we would make papier-mache "}
{"id": "986731926", "date": "2021-04-13", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates Jr", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. On 'The Black Church' And His Own Bargain With Jesus", "question_index": 8, "text": "I did.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I never told my mother this story. My mother died in 1997, and I first wrote about it in my memoir \"Colored People,\" which I believe you interviewed me about..."}
{"id": "986731926", "date": "2021-04-13", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates Jr", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. On 'The Black Church' And His Own Bargain With Jesus", "question_index": 9, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Henry Louis Gates. His new book \"The Black Church\" is a companion to the PBS series of the same name. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...In the '90s. But I was able to tell it in a fuller way in the PBS series and in the book. My mother suffered from a severe form of menopause. The science - medical - the medical science about menop"}
{"id": "986731926", "date": "2021-04-13", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates Jr", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. On 'The Black Church' And His Own Bargain With Jesus", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Henry Louis Gates. His new book, The Black Church, is a companion to his PBS series of the same name, which he hosted. You come, in a way, from a very churchy family. You have two uncles on your mother's side who founded their own evangelical churches when they turned 60. And you have another uncle who graduated divinity school from Boston University in 1960 and is now a semiretired Methodist minister. So when you considered at some point becoming a minister yourself, you probably took that pretty seriously.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...In the '90s. But I was able to tell it in a fuller way in the PBS series and in the book. My mother suffered from a severe form of menopause. The science - medical - the medical science about menop"}
{"id": "986731926", "date": "2021-04-13", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates Jr", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. On 'The Black Church' And His Own Bargain With Jesus", "question_index": 11, "text": "It's not the way people usually typically get introduced to university education. Wow. I'm just thinking of how expensive it probably was to ship the clothes back and forth. Like, that's not cheap.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I took it seriously. My uncle Harry Coleman, who went to BU, really inspired me to think about going to college in the Ivy League. And one of my father's first cousins graduated from Harvard Law"}
{"id": "986731926", "date": "2021-04-13", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates Jr", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. On 'The Black Church' And His Own Bargain With Jesus", "question_index": 12, "text": "I hope it gave your mother some solace to know that you were still Dr. Gates because of your Ph.D.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And she gave us stethoscopes for a birthday, dissecting kits for Christmas. You know, there was no question. I was - even when - I graduated from Yale, as you know, as a history major. I took a couple"}
{"id": "986731926", "date": "2021-04-13", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates Jr", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. On 'The Black Church' And His Own Bargain With Jesus", "question_index": 13, "text": "You're kidding. Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God. My mother would call. And Rocky and I tried to - when we had families, we would spend Thanksgiving and Christmas in Piedmont at my parents' house. We got together, and we bought my parents"}
{"id": "986731926", "date": "2021-04-13", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates Jr", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. On 'The Black Church' And His Own Bargain With Jesus", "question_index": 14, "text": "What a really beautiful story. You know, I just keep thinking that you never told your mother that you joined the church because you'd prayed to Jesus for her life to be saved, and when she survived, you followed through on the promise you made and you joined the church and made a lot of sacrifices to do it. And I just keep thinking, like, if you had told her that, that it probably would've meant so much to her.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so it was a fantasy house. So on the first night, we were all there. And we went to bed, and we were joking. And my brother said, goodnight, John-Boy. And I said, goodnight, John-Boy. And we heard"}
{"id": "986731926", "date": "2021-04-13", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates Jr", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. On 'The Black Church' And His Own Bargain With Jesus", "question_index": 15, "text": "My guest is Henry Louis Gates. His new book \"The Black Church\" is a companion to his PBS series of the same name. We'll talk more after a short break. And Maureen Corrigan will review the new novel \"The Final Revival Of Opal & Nev\" about a '70s rock duo - a Black woman from Detroit and a white man from England. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I thought it would be hubris if I did that. I thought it would be arrogance. It didn't occur to me to tell the story until I wrote \"Colored People.\" And the reason I wrote \"Colored People\" was -"}
{"id": "986731926", "date": "2021-04-13", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates Jr", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. On 'The Black Church' And His Own Bargain With Jesus", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded last Thursday with Henry Louis Gates. His new book \"The Black Church\" is a companion to the PBS series of the same name, which he hosts. He's hosted many PBS series about African and African American history. He also hosts the PBS genealogy series \"Finding Your Roots.\" He's a professor at Harvard, where he directs the Hutchins Center for African and African American Research. His new book describes how Black churches became the foundation of Black religious, political, economic and social life. He also tells his story of how when he was 12, he made a bargain with Jesus to help save his mother's life after she was hospitalized. When she survived, he kept his promise and joined the church. When you were 12 and you joined the church, you accepted Jesus. But you were not overcome by the Holy Ghost. You were terrified of the Holy Ghost. Now, the church that you were attending was not a Pentecostal church. But a good friend of yours was a member of the Pentecostal church. There was a Pentecostal church in your neighborhood. You were so afraid of being overcome by the Holy Ghost, you'd walk on the opposite side of the street when you passed that church. Tell us about your fear and what your exposure was to the church that made you so afraid of being overcome by the Holy Ghost.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I thought it would be hubris if I did that. I thought it would be arrogance. It didn't occur to me to tell the story until I wrote \"Colored People.\" And the reason I wrote \"Colored People\" was -"}
{"id": "986731926", "date": "2021-04-13", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates Jr", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. On 'The Black Church' And His Own Bargain With Jesus", "question_index": 17, "text": "Well, let's just back up a little bit. So when you were afraid of the Holy Ghost, was that part of the religious experience feeling more to you like a ghost story or a horror story then something deeply spiritual?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "and grab me in the church, which is what had happened to my brother's friend, Vincent Clay (ph). Vincent Clay was in a worship service at that church. He got up to walk out. And he later told us that "}
{"id": "986731926", "date": "2021-04-13", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates Jr", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. On 'The Black Church' And His Own Bargain With Jesus", "question_index": 18, "text": "So at what point in your life did you become less religious and more secular?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "? He'd say, just talking to the Lord, son. Just talking to the Lord. And then he would tease me. He called me nephew, Terry, that day. And I - and he said, nephew, your daddy's church, the Episcopal c"}
{"id": "986731926", "date": "2021-04-13", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates Jr", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. On 'The Black Church' And His Own Bargain With Jesus", "question_index": 19, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Henry Louis Gates. His new book \"The Black Church\" is a companion to the PBS series of the same name. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I went to Yale. I stopped going to church. I would go to hear - that's not exactly true. William Sloane Coffin, the famous campus minister at Yale, was the minister at Battell Chapel. And I was a"}
{"id": "986731926", "date": "2021-04-13", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates Jr", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. On 'The Black Church' And His Own Bargain With Jesus", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Henry Louis Gates. His new book \"The Black Church\" is a companion to his PBS series of the same name, which he hosted. Part of your new book was written during the pandemic and the Black Lives Matter protests and the ongoing fight for voting rights. Churches were closed or partially closed by the pandemic. But the role of church leaders in, for example, fighting for voting rights continues. When you were writing this book, what's an example of, like, a through line that you saw where you felt the church's activism was like, here we go again, like everything changes, nothing changes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I went to Yale. I stopped going to church. I would go to hear - that's not exactly true. William Sloane Coffin, the famous campus minister at Yale, was the minister at Battell Chapel. And I was a"}
{"id": "986731926", "date": "2021-04-13", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates Jr", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. On 'The Black Church' And His Own Bargain With Jesus", "question_index": 21, "text": "The church has always been important in getting out the vote. Can you talk a little bit about, like, the souls to the polls role of the church and how voter suppression has tried to limit the church's ability to get people to the polls?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we tend to forget that Black politics, fighting anti-Black racism was born in the church. Frederick Douglass, the most famous of all the Black abolitionists, learned to speak from the pulpit of "}
{"id": "986731926", "date": "2021-04-13", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates Jr", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. On 'The Black Church' And His Own Bargain With Jesus", "question_index": 22, "text": "Your book is dedicated to the memory of John Lewis, who was, of course, a congressman and a longtime voting rights activist. Was he a friend? Did you know him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we can look at two examples. Everyone forgets that when Joe Biden came out of New Hampshire, virtually nobody but Joe thought he was going to get the nomination. And Representative Jim Clyburn h"}
{"id": "986731926", "date": "2021-04-13", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates Jr", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. On 'The Black Church' And His Own Bargain With Jesus", "question_index": 23, "text": "That's an amazing story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "986731926", "date": "2021-04-13", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates Jr", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. On 'The Black Church' And His Own Bargain With Jesus", "question_index": 24, "text": "I mean, John Lewis risked his life for voting rights.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's an amazing story. And..."}
{"id": "986731926", "date": "2021-04-13", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates Jr", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. On 'The Black Church' And His Own Bargain With Jesus", "question_index": 25, "text": "One of the great contributions of Black churches is gospel music. And I had asked you to choose a gospel song that you particularly love that means something to you. And you chose a song by Mahalia Jackson - sung by Mahalia Jackson called \"Walk In Jerusalem.\" And I'd like you to talk about why you chose this song and also about her importance, not just as a singer, but as somebody who really contributed to the civil rights movement.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "he was beaten so badly on Pettus Bridge, a beating, a sacrifice that he took that forced Lyndon Johnson to endorse the Voting Rights Act."}
{"id": "986731926", "date": "2021-04-13", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates Jr", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. On 'The Black Church' And His Own Bargain With Jesus", "question_index": 26, "text": "You know, Mahalia Jackson, in addition to singing on the phone to Martin Luther King when he needed spiritual or, you know, just emotional support - she helped fund him when he traveled. She helped fund the Freedom Riders.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I chose Mahalia Jackson because my father loved Mahalia Jackson, despite the fact that he was an Episcopalian. The music he loved was Black gospel music. And among all Black gospel musicians, among al"}
{"id": "986731926", "date": "2021-04-13", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates Jr", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. On 'The Black Church' And His Own Bargain With Jesus", "question_index": 27, "text": "Well, before we hear Mahalia Jackson, I want to thank you so much for coming back to FRESH AIR. It's been a pleasure to talk with you again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely. She, like Harry Belafonte, was a blank check for the movement. If Martin asked her, she wrote the check. And so that shows another level of complexity of the relationship between the B"}
{"id": "986731926", "date": "2021-04-13", "guest": "Henry Louis Gates Jr", "title": "Henry Louis Gates Jr. On 'The Black Church' And His Own Bargain With Jesus", "question_index": 28, "text": "Henry Louis Gates is the author of the new book \"The Black Church\" a companion to the PBS series he hosts of the same name. After we take a short break, Maureen Corrigan will review \"The Final Revival Of Opal & Nev,\" a new novel centering around a '70s rock duo that's about music, race and family secrets. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) God knows I'm gonna walk in Jerusalem, talk in Jerusalem, sing in Jerusalem, be in Jerusalem, high up in Jerusalem when I die. Oh, be in Jerusalem, sing in Jerusalem, shout in Jerusalem, pra"}
{"id": "990140919", "date": "2021-04-23", "guest": "Jamie Foxx", "title": "'Soul' Creators On Passion, Purpose And Realizing You're 'Enough'", "question_index": 0, "text": "I love that. Pete Docter, Kemp Powers, welcome to FRESH AIR. Congratulations on the Oscar nominations and on the win from the Golden Globes. Pete, you originated the story of \"Soul.\" What was the germ of the idea?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Connie) I'm 12."}
{"id": "990140919", "date": "2021-04-23", "guest": "Jamie Foxx", "title": "'Soul' Creators On Passion, Purpose And Realizing You're 'Enough'", "question_index": 1, "text": "So why did you make the main character a jazz musician?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah, I started working on it after \"Inside Out.\" And it was a kind of a period of some amount of emotional turbulence. And I had always loved animation. You know, I was 9, I think, when I made "}
{"id": "990140919", "date": "2021-04-23", "guest": "Jamie Foxx", "title": "'Soul' Creators On Passion, Purpose And Realizing You're 'Enough'", "question_index": 2, "text": "How did you decide to collaborate with Kemp Powers on the film?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. We experimented with a couple of different things. For a while, Joe was an actor. And we found what happened was that the audience, for whatever reason, thought he was - he just wanted fame. So "}
{"id": "990140919", "date": "2021-04-23", "guest": "Jamie Foxx", "title": "'Soul' Creators On Passion, Purpose And Realizing You're 'Enough'", "question_index": 3, "text": "So does this part get a little awkward? Like, you realize you need a Black person...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we had made some of these decisions of Joe being a jazz musician, being - living in New York. We figured, OK, if this is a film about a jazz musician, our main character should probably reflect "}
{"id": "990140919", "date": "2021-04-23", "guest": "Jamie Foxx", "title": "'Soul' Creators On Passion, Purpose And Realizing You're 'Enough'", "question_index": 4, "text": "...Working on the screenplay with you. And, Kemp, you realized when you're called that, like, you're the Black person who's going to help them with it. It's like, I think we recognize that that is what needs to be done. But I think it's, like, an awkward position for everybody. Like, how do you talk about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we had made some of these decisions of Joe being a jazz musician, being - living in New York. We figured, OK, if this is a film about a jazz musician, our main character should probably reflect "}
{"id": "990140919", "date": "2021-04-23", "guest": "Jamie Foxx", "title": "'Soul' Creators On Passion, Purpose And Realizing You're 'Enough'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Were there changes you wanted to make as soon as you started working on it?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, you know, it's - I try not to be - I know that can sound cynical. But, look; that's just the reality of this business, this industry. And that it wasn't very long ago - and when I say not very lo"}
{"id": "990140919", "date": "2021-04-23", "guest": "Jamie Foxx", "title": "'Soul' Creators On Passion, Purpose And Realizing You're 'Enough'", "question_index": 6, "text": "So what is one of those gaps that you filled in with your own personal experience?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Joe just - and part of it was, I think, because there had been such extreme caution and such a fear of doing things that might, you know, offend someone or upset someone that instead, there real"}
{"id": "990140919", "date": "2021-04-23", "guest": "Jamie Foxx", "title": "'Soul' Creators On Passion, Purpose And Realizing You're 'Enough'", "question_index": 7, "text": "So we happen to have this scene", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was honestly the first scene I started working on when I came there. And it's a scene - we call it - I think the scene is called suit. And it's when Joe goes to get a suit from his mom, who is a ta"}
{"id": "990140919", "date": "2021-04-23", "guest": "Jamie Foxx", "title": "'Soul' Creators On Passion, Purpose And Realizing You're 'Enough'", "question_index": 8, "text": "cued up and ready to go. So let's hear it. So this is Joe, the jazz musician, and his mother, who runs the tailor shop.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was honestly the first scene I started working on when I came there. And it's a scene - we call it - I think the scene is called suit. And it's when Joe goes to get a suit from his mom, who is a ta"}
{"id": "990140919", "date": "2021-04-23", "guest": "Jamie Foxx", "title": "'Soul' Creators On Passion, Purpose And Realizing You're 'Enough'", "question_index": 9, "text": "So Kemp Powers, what was the version of that conversation you had with your mother?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Libba) Joey."}
{"id": "990140919", "date": "2021-04-23", "guest": "Jamie Foxx", "title": "'Soul' Creators On Passion, Purpose And Realizing You're 'Enough'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Oh, gee.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "990140919", "date": "2021-04-23", "guest": "Jamie Foxx", "title": "'Soul' Creators On Passion, Purpose And Realizing You're 'Enough'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Well, I hope you told her about the Oscar nomination - nominations,", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "..."}
{"id": "990140919", "date": "2021-04-23", "guest": "Jamie Foxx", "title": "'Soul' Creators On Passion, Purpose And Realizing You're 'Enough'", "question_index": 12, "text": "plural.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "..."}
{"id": "990140919", "date": "2021-04-23", "guest": "Jamie Foxx", "title": "'Soul' Creators On Passion, Purpose And Realizing You're 'Enough'", "question_index": 13, "text": "OK, good. I think I need to reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guests are Pete Docter and Kemp Powers, the director and co-director of the film \"Soul,\" which they also co-wrote. It's nominated for three Oscars, including best animated film. Powers is also nominated for an Oscar for best adapted screenplay for \"One Night In Miami...\" which he adapted from his play of the same name. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "990140919", "date": "2021-04-23", "guest": "Jamie Foxx", "title": "'Soul' Creators On Passion, Purpose And Realizing You're 'Enough'", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Pete Docter and Kent Powers, who directed and co-directed the film \"Soul,\" which has received an Oscar nomination for best animated film. Powers also is nominated for best adapted screenplay for \"One Night In Miami...\" So I want to get back to the conceit of \"Soul.\" Pete, one of the things you had to do is to figure out what is the afterlife or the limbo that your main character was going to be in when he has this near-death experience and he's holding on for life, and it's really unclear whether he's going to live or survive. So you had to figure out this whole kind of system of what happens to bodies in limbo. So did you talk to people who had near-death experiences? And I should ask here, Kemp, did you have a near-death experience when you were in the hospital in the kind of predicament that you had just described, where all of your organs might be failing as a result of the allergic reaction you were having?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "990140919", "date": "2021-04-23", "guest": "Jamie Foxx", "title": "'Soul' Creators On Passion, Purpose And Realizing You're 'Enough'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Did you feel like your life force was being drained?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it felt like a near-death in that, you know, I wasn't in a coma. I was awake, but I couldn't move, physically. And it was a situation where the only way they can treat rhabdomyolysis is flushi"}
{"id": "990140919", "date": "2021-04-23", "guest": "Jamie Foxx", "title": "'Soul' Creators On Passion, Purpose And Realizing You're 'Enough'", "question_index": 16, "text": "So to bring that back to the movie, was there anything you drew on from that experience that you wanted to put into the character of Joe, who desperately wants to live but knows he might not?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, yeah, I felt like I was - there were days at the - right before - you know, full disclosure, like, right before things started to improve, I was starting to write letters to my children. Like,"}
{"id": "990140919", "date": "2021-04-23", "guest": "Jamie Foxx", "title": "'Soul' Creators On Passion, Purpose And Realizing You're 'Enough'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you both. If you're just joining us, my guests are Pete Docter and Kemp Powers, the director and co-director of the film \"Soul,\" which has an Oscar nomination for best animated film. Powers is also nominated for best adapted screenplay for \"One Night In Miami...\" We'll be right back after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And so that that was really a powerful driving force for me."}
{"id": "990140919", "date": "2021-04-23", "guest": "Jamie Foxx", "title": "'Soul' Creators On Passion, Purpose And Realizing You're 'Enough'", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Pete Docter and Kemp Powers, the director and co-director of the film \"Soul,\" which received an Oscar nomination for best animated film. It already won the Golden Globe in that category. Docter and Powers also co-wrote the film. It's about a middle school band teacher who dreams of being a full-time jazz musician. And just as he gets his big opportunity, he falls into a manhole and is transported to another world where he's suspended between life and death and is forced to rethink the meaning of his life. Kemp Powers is also nominated for best adapted screenplay for his film \"One Night In Miami...\" which he adapted from his play of the same name. It's about the conversation he imagines Malcolm X, Sam Cooke, Jim Brown and Cassius Clay had the night that Clay won the world heavyweight title, defeating Sonny Liston in 1964 before Clay became Muhammad Ali. Well, let's get back to talking about the film \"Soul.\" Since \"Soul\" is so much about what happens when you're between life and death and what happens in the afterlife and the before life, I'd love to hear the stories you were each told about what happens when you leave this world or when you're in that kind of limbo state. Pete, let's start with you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Say it's all right. Say it's all right. It's all right to have a good time 'cause it's all right. Oh, it's all right. Now, listen to the beat, kind of pat your feet. You got soul, and everyb"}
{"id": "990140919", "date": "2021-04-23", "guest": "Jamie Foxx", "title": "'Soul' Creators On Passion, Purpose And Realizing You're 'Enough'", "question_index": 19, "text": "That's an interesting result of making the movie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I grew up Lutheran, and so - understanding kind of the concepts of God and heaven and so on. But I think, you know, as a kid, you have these very specific - I guess you want to put visua"}
{"id": "990140919", "date": "2021-04-23", "guest": "Jamie Foxx", "title": "'Soul' Creators On Passion, Purpose And Realizing You're 'Enough'", "question_index": 20, "text": "What is the difference, the way you see it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It was a great experience to be able to come into work every day and basically ruminate and think about and meditate on this theme of, like, what's life about? And, of course, that's really beyo"}
{"id": "990140919", "date": "2021-04-23", "guest": "Jamie Foxx", "title": "'Soul' Creators On Passion, Purpose And Realizing You're 'Enough'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Well, he's even told when he's in the state of limbo that the spark, the thing that you're passionate about, isn't your soul's purpose. And the meaning of that - he's basically told, if you let your obsession take over, you lose your sense of meaning. You lose your sense of purpose.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As someone who feels as though I have this purpose in life, which is to create animated films - no, that's my passion. It's what I love doing, right? But I think a lot of times, you end up mistaking t"}
{"id": "990140919", "date": "2021-04-23", "guest": "Jamie Foxx", "title": "'Soul' Creators On Passion, Purpose And Realizing You're 'Enough'", "question_index": 22, "text": "So I want to get back to something you were saying, Pete - that obsession can block out a lot of things that are very important about life, that the work that you do, no matter how passionate you are, isn't the total meaning of life. And it can block out some of the meaning and some of the beauty of life. So, Kemp, when you were emerging from this near-death experience in which you had that awful allergic reaction and you had promised yourself that if you survived, you're going to go all in and try to do the kind of writing you really wanted to do instead of journalism, where you felt you weren't really making any progress in your career - so did you become very obsessive about that? And did you get to the point where you felt like you were shutting out parts of life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But, you know, the idea that when you walk out into the world and you smell the air and you hear birds and you taste and touch and all those things - that's, I think, what ultimately we really want fr"}
{"id": "990140919", "date": "2021-04-23", "guest": "Jamie Foxx", "title": "'Soul' Creators On Passion, Purpose And Realizing You're 'Enough'", "question_index": 23, "text": "And, Pete, you know, you were talking about some of the things you opened your mind to in making this movie. Did you also feel like, gee, maybe I should take more pleasure in just, like, little things in life, like falling leaves and the taste of pizza?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely. I - something that we discussed when making this film was that at different points in our lives and careers, we've all been - we feel like we've all been lost souls based on our defini"}
{"id": "990140919", "date": "2021-04-23", "guest": "Jamie Foxx", "title": "'Soul' Creators On Passion, Purpose And Realizing You're 'Enough'", "question_index": 24, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely. I - something that we discussed when making this film was that at different points in our lives and careers, we've all been - we feel like we've all been lost souls based on our defini"}
{"id": "990140919", "date": "2021-04-23", "guest": "Jamie Foxx", "title": "'Soul' Creators On Passion, Purpose And Realizing You're 'Enough'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Yeah. And it's no longer just, like, background; it's something that you can immerse yourself in and appreciate the details of.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. No, and it sounds kind of trite and small to say, but it's absolutely true in a sense, I think. As an artist - I keep a sketchbook - when I draw, there is some connection made because of that at"}
{"id": "990140919", "date": "2021-04-23", "guest": "Jamie Foxx", "title": "'Soul' Creators On Passion, Purpose And Realizing You're 'Enough'", "question_index": 26, "text": "Yeah, I think we can all relate to that", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, working on this film was really - and I think this is true of any story - when you get to turn things around and say, OK, if Joe believes he's, like, an essentialist, you know,"}
{"id": "990140919", "date": "2021-04-23", "guest": "Jamie Foxx", "title": "'Soul' Creators On Passion, Purpose And Realizing You're 'Enough'", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah. No, I mean, working on this film was really - and I think this is true of any story - when you get to turn things around and say, OK, if Joe believes he's, like, an essentialist, you know,"}
{"id": "990140919", "date": "2021-04-23", "guest": "Jamie Foxx", "title": "'Soul' Creators On Passion, Purpose And Realizing You're 'Enough'", "question_index": 28, "text": "You're not saying just enjoy the pizza and the falling leaves.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "990140919", "date": "2021-04-23", "guest": "Jamie Foxx", "title": "'Soul' Creators On Passion, Purpose And Realizing You're 'Enough'", "question_index": 29, "text": "But do, yeah", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No, but do. But do, you know, yeah."}
{"id": "990140919", "date": "2021-04-23", "guest": "Jamie Foxx", "title": "'Soul' Creators On Passion, Purpose And Realizing You're 'Enough'", "question_index": 30, "text": ". OK. Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guests are Pete Docter and Kemp Powers, the director and co-director of the film \"Soul,\" which they also co-wrote. It's nominated for three Oscars, including best animated film. Powers is also nominated for an Oscar for best adapted screenplay for \"One Night In Miami...\" which he adapted from his play of the same name. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No, but do. But do, you know, yeah."}
{"id": "990140919", "date": "2021-04-23", "guest": "Jamie Foxx", "title": "'Soul' Creators On Passion, Purpose And Realizing You're 'Enough'", "question_index": 31, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Pete Docter and Kemp Powers, who directed and co-directed the film \"Soul,\" which has received an Oscar nomination for best animated film. Powers has a nomination for best adapted screenplay for \"One Night In Miami...\" which he adapted from his play of the same name. Kemp Powers, I want to ask you about \"One Night In Miami...\" because in addition to the best animated film Oscar nomination, you're nominated for best adapted screenplay for \"One Night In Miami...\" which is adapted from your play of the same name. And it's about the night that Muhammad Ali won the heavyweight championship, defeating Sonny Liston, and then there was a gathering in the Hampton House Motel of Cassius Clay, Malcolm X, Sam Cooke and Jim Brown, who's a football player. You know, you've written this whole dialogue for them, this whole conversation in which they talk about, like, the great issues facing them as individuals and facing the civil rights movement and, you know, the more radical Black movement that Malcolm X is a part of. How much do you actually know about what happened when they all got together?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No, but do. But do, you know, yeah."}
{"id": "990140919", "date": "2021-04-23", "guest": "Jamie Foxx", "title": "'Soul' Creators On Passion, Purpose And Realizing You're 'Enough'", "question_index": 32, "text": "How have you answered the question you posed for yourself - like, how much of your work should be in service of the larger movement?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Honestly, just little tidbits in terms of the actual discussion in the room. I mean, if you read biographies on each of the four men, if you read enough of them like I have, there will be references t"}
{"id": "990140919", "date": "2021-04-23", "guest": "Jamie Foxx", "title": "'Soul' Creators On Passion, Purpose And Realizing You're 'Enough'", "question_index": 33, "text": "Pete, what did you find relevant in \"One Night In Miami\" to \"Soul\"?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "if there are issues that I find objectionable about certain elements of characterization."}
{"id": "990140919", "date": "2021-04-23", "guest": "Jamie Foxx", "title": "'Soul' Creators On Passion, Purpose And Realizing You're 'Enough'", "question_index": 34, "text": "It's kind of interesting that \"One Night In Miami...\" and \"The U.S. (ph) Vs. Billie Holiday\" and \"Ma Rainey's Black Bottom\" - three Oscar-nominated movies - are all based on real people. And there seems to be kind of a trend of a lot of African American-themed films being about real events in history or real people, you know, including yours - \"One Night In Miami...\" And I'm wondering, like, if you have any thoughts about why that is.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "990140919", "date": "2021-04-23", "guest": "Jamie Foxx", "title": "'Soul' Creators On Passion, Purpose And Realizing You're 'Enough'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Well, good luck to both of you at the Oscars. And thank you so much for talking with us. It's just been a pleasure.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I - honestly, I was wondering that one myself. Maybe it's universal consciousness. I'm assuming a lot of it probably has to do with Trump's presidency. I was having a conversation with another Black f"}
{"id": "992017813", "date": "2021-04-30", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Apollo 11 Astronaut Michael Collins", "question_index": 0, "text": "In the very beginning of your new book, \"Liftoff,\" you describe how it feels when a technician snaps the helmet down into the neck ring. Would you describe that for us?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When Terry spoke with Michael Collins, he'd written a book about the U.S. space program called \"Liftoff.\""}
{"id": "992017813", "date": "2021-04-30", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Apollo 11 Astronaut Michael Collins", "question_index": 1, "text": "When you were strapped down in July of 1969, waiting to head for the moon, and you heard the countdown, what were you thinking about when you heard the countdown?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's when you sort of say goodbye to the world because even though you're still on the surface, you can no longer smell or really touch or even hear something unless it's electronically piped "}
{"id": "992017813", "date": "2021-04-30", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Apollo 11 Astronaut Michael Collins", "question_index": 2, "text": "Now, are you serious about that? I mean, would you really - I can't tell if that's just what you're saying, or if you really think that they should change that because the countdown causes a lot of extra attention for the astronauts.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't like countdowns. I don't like - I think you're nervous enough without someone yelling in your ear, 10, nine, eight, seven. I think what they ought to do instead of having those backwards numbe"}
{"id": "992017813", "date": "2021-04-30", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Apollo 11 Astronaut Michael Collins", "question_index": 3, "text": "I'm really interested in the sensation of taking off. I'm thinking - just when you go up in an airplane, your ears lock. What happens to your body when you're propelled into space at this incredibly high velocity?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I - no, no, no. I'm kidding. But to be serious, I think it's totally unnecessary as far as the crew's concerned to tell them every last second preceding. I mean, we know. We have a clock right the"}
{"id": "992017813", "date": "2021-04-30", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Apollo 11 Astronaut Michael Collins", "question_index": 4, "text": "When you were heading toward the moon, it was Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin who were going to walk on the moon. And you were going to be in the control room circling the moon as they did their walk. Why was it you who was chosen to stay in the command capsule?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the motors are very, very powerful, but they're lifting a gigantic weight so that when you first leave the launch pad - and you can see this on your television screen - the thing doesn't, you kn"}
{"id": "992017813", "date": "2021-04-30", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Apollo 11 Astronaut Michael Collins", "question_index": 5, "text": "When you were alone in the capsule and they had taken off, what happened? Did two capsules break apart so that they could go to the moon while you stayed where you were?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Gee, that's something that evolved over a long period of time. I became a specialist and the mother ship, the command module. Aldrin had been an expert in rendezvous. And Neil Armstrong was the most e"}
{"id": "992017813", "date": "2021-04-30", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Apollo 11 Astronaut Michael Collins", "question_index": 6, "text": "Now, you confess in your new book that your big fear when you were alone in the command capsule was that you wouldn't be able to make contact with the other astronauts and you'd have to leave without them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that's right. The machines were quite specialized. The one that I was in, which was called Columbia, was the base camp, you might say, and the one that made the final approach and landing was cal"}
{"id": "992017813", "date": "2021-04-30", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Apollo 11 Astronaut Michael Collins", "question_index": 7, "text": "So when you were alone, how did you occupy your mind to prevent yourself from obsessing with fear that you wouldn't be able to hook up again? Or was that not a problem?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's certainly true. I think a trip to the moon and back is a long and fragile chain of events. I think of it almost as a daisy chain. Any one link in that chain can break the entire sequence."}
{"id": "992017813", "date": "2021-04-30", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Apollo 11 Astronaut Michael Collins", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I had a lot to do. I had to - you know, I had to get the newspaper in, put the cat out, make sure the fireplace was in good shape."}
{"id": "992017813", "date": "2021-04-30", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Apollo 11 Astronaut Michael Collins", "question_index": 9, "text": "And this is the dark side, the side we don't see from Earth.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had a lot of a lot of housekeeping chores to do. The command module, Columbia, was a very large and complicated machine. And you have to keep paying attention to it, make sure all the temperatures, "}
{"id": "992017813", "date": "2021-04-30", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Apollo 11 Astronaut Michael Collins", "question_index": 10, "text": "How did you know that it was going to work, that you were going to be able to meet up and return together? I mean...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's the far side, the back side. Sometimes, it's dark. Sometimes, it's light. It depends on the angle to the sun. But regardless of light or dark, it's utterly quiet, completely serene. I knew "}
{"id": "992017813", "date": "2021-04-30", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Apollo 11 Astronaut Michael Collins", "question_index": 11, "text": "When was that moment when you knew, this is it? We've made it. We've made it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I did not know."}
{"id": "992017813", "date": "2021-04-30", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Apollo 11 Astronaut Michael Collins", "question_index": 12, "text": "You wrote that when they returned, you wanted to give Buzz a big smooch on the forehead. And then you were too embarrassed, so you just shook his hand", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I did not know. I was worried about it. It's - the rendezvous process is a relatively straightforward one, provided everything goes exactly right. But if, for example, they don't take off from t"}
{"id": "992017813", "date": "2021-04-30", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Apollo 11 Astronaut Michael Collins", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I did not know. I was worried about it. It's - the rendezvous process is a relatively straightforward one, provided everything goes exactly right. But if, for example, they don't take off from t"}
{"id": "992017813", "date": "2021-04-30", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Apollo 11 Astronaut Michael Collins", "question_index": 14, "text": "You know, all of us got to see the moonwalk on television. Did you get to see any of it on a monitor while you were in space?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't - I wanted to greet him like a parent might greet an errant child who'd been out late, and you're so worried about where they are. But when they finally appear, you're just "}
{"id": "992017813", "date": "2021-04-30", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Apollo 11 Astronaut Michael Collins", "question_index": 15, "text": "I want to ask you about another really momentous space accomplishment in your life, and that was in July of 1966 when you were, I think, the first person in space to leave the vehicle and make contact with another space vehicle. Is that right?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR, and we're listening to the interview Terry recorded in 1988 with astronaut Michael Collins, who was on the Apollo 11 mission that carried Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin to the surfa"}
{"id": "992017813", "date": "2021-04-30", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Apollo 11 Astronaut Michael Collins", "question_index": 16, "text": "When you left the capsule for the spacewalk, did you have to just kind of jump the way a lot of us jump into deep water for the very first time, thinking, well, I hope I float? This is it, got to go", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. There was a spacewalk leaving Gemini - Gemini No. 10 and floating over to an Agena, another unmanned vehicle that had been left in orbit, and retrieving from that Agena an experiment package and "}
{"id": "992017813", "date": "2021-04-30", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Apollo 11 Astronaut Michael Collins", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. There was a spacewalk leaving Gemini - Gemini No. 10 and floating over to an Agena, another unmanned vehicle that had been left in orbit, and retrieving from that Agena an experiment package and "}
{"id": "992017813", "date": "2021-04-30", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Apollo 11 Astronaut Michael Collins", "question_index": 18, "text": "Wow. Well, I think if there's any experience in the universe that could really make you think about how small each person is compared to the universe itself, it would be your experience walking in space like that. Did you think about that at the time? Were you too preoccupied to think about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what happened is the - yes, the first time John maneuvered the Gemini under the end of the Agena and we were about, I guess, 10 or 12 feet away from it, and I gave a little tiny nudge - I didn't"}
{"id": "992017813", "date": "2021-04-30", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Apollo 11 Astronaut Michael Collins", "question_index": 19, "text": "When you were doing your spacewalk, what could you actually see?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, actually, during that Gemini flight in Earth's orbit, we were really busy. We had - we were working about 16 to 18 hours a day. And we were overloaded. During the flight of Apollo 11 to the "}
{"id": "992017813", "date": "2021-04-30", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Apollo 11 Astronaut Michael Collins", "question_index": 20, "text": "I'll tell you something I don't understand, and I don't know if you could explain it in lay terms, but when you're out dangling from this umbilical cord in space attached to a spacecraft, the spacecraft is speeding around in orbit. How do you keep up a relative speed with the spacecraft?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, you can see wonderfully well. You have the whole world at your feet. Come roaring in over the Pacific Ocean, you can see in one glance all the way from Alaska to Baja, Calif. You go across the Uni"}
{"id": "992017813", "date": "2021-04-30", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Apollo 11 Astronaut Michael Collins", "question_index": 21, "text": "Yeah, it does, except that you're outside of the car, so to speak.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, gee. That's hard to explain. It's sort of like driving down the highway at 55 miles an hour in your station wagon. And you've got the kids in the back seat. And if one of the kids jumps up off the"}
{"id": "992017813", "date": "2021-04-30", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Apollo 11 Astronaut Michael Collins", "question_index": 22, "text": "Right, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right. Make it a convertible then instead of a station wagon."}
{"id": "992017813", "date": "2021-04-30", "guest": "Michael Collins", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers Apollo 11 Astronaut Michael Collins", "question_index": 23, "text": "I got it. OK. Do you think that most astronauts who've gone as far away from their home planet as you have are changed very much by that experience? It seems like the kind of experience that would lead you to go - undergo either a religious conversion or to come back thinking about things in ways you've never thought about it before or that you might be very depressed afterwards because nothing could ever measure up to the climactic experience of walking on or orbiting the moon.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right. Make it a convertible then instead of a station wagon."}
{"id": "992346191", "date": "2021-04-30", "guest": "Kate Winslet", "title": "Kate Winslet On The Roles That Scare Her And How 'Titanic' Shaped Her Career", "question_index": 0, "text": "Winslet started her film career at the age of 17 and became a star three years later with her role in the blockbuster \"Titanic.\" Her other films include \"Sense And Sensibility,\" \"Eternal Sunshine Of The Spotless Mind,\" \"Revolutionary Road\" and \"The Reader.\" \"Mare Of Easttown\" airs Sunday nights at 10.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Mare Sheehan) Here it is, Mrs. Carroll (ph). See this? That's the main station number. All right? That's the one you want. I'll put it right in the center. So you call them - OK? - next time, inst"}
{"id": "992346191", "date": "2021-04-30", "guest": "Kate Winslet", "title": "Kate Winslet On The Roles That Scare Her And How 'Titanic' Shaped Her Career", "question_index": 1, "text": "You started your movie career in 1994, when you were 17 and made the film \"Heavenly Creatures.\" A lot has changed in the movie industry since then, including, you know, a lot has changed for women. There are more directors and screenwriters. And I think it's fair to say more good roles for women than there were in the '90s, although, you know, \"Heavenly Creatures\" was a great film and a great role. But I'm wondering if there are things in terms of how men in the industry would treat you or what they would say to you on set or off that you thought, well, that's just the way it is, you know, I'll just kind of, you know, take it and, you know, move on, just like ignore it and move on - that you would feel differently about now that you would, like, say something?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Mare Sheehan) Here it is, Mrs. Carroll (ph). See this? That's the main station number. All right? That's the one you want. I'll put it right in the center. So you call them - OK? - next time, inst"}
{"id": "992346191", "date": "2021-04-30", "guest": "Kate Winslet", "title": "Kate Winslet On The Roles That Scare Her And How 'Titanic' Shaped Her Career", "question_index": 2, "text": "You told a story to Vanity Fair about how - I think it's for the HBO series that you just finished shooting - that for one scene that a young actress in the movie had to do. You - the scene was going to be shot in the car. And it was a love scene, a lesbian love scene. And you stayed in the trunk of the car just to be there for her and make sure that she was, like, respected and treated well during the shooting of that scene. Can you talk about that a little bit? And also, did they know you were in the trunk of the car?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It is not that way now at all. And I certainly do feel much safer. And I feel much more looked out for now because there are specific ways in which people are just not allowed to behave anymore."}
{"id": "992346191", "date": "2021-04-30", "guest": "Kate Winslet", "title": "Kate Winslet On The Roles That Scare Her And How 'Titanic' Shaped Her Career", "question_index": 3, "text": "Do you wish you had somebody like that when you were 17 in \"Heavenly Creatures\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So it was a night shoot. And there was a scene between two LGBTQ characters in our story. And one of the characters was played by an Australian actress named Angourie Rice, who's 18 - at the tim"}
{"id": "992346191", "date": "2021-04-30", "guest": "Kate Winslet", "title": "Kate Winslet On The Roles That Scare Her And How 'Titanic' Shaped Her Career", "question_index": 4, "text": "What did you need help with then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes, I do."}
{"id": "992346191", "date": "2021-04-30", "guest": "Kate Winslet", "title": "Kate Winslet On The Roles That Scare Her And How 'Titanic' Shaped Her Career", "question_index": 5, "text": "You've talked about how, when you were young, you were fat. And you used the word fat to describe how you looked. And you said that when you were young, like in school, it limited the kind of roles you could get. You became known in movies for being, you know, beautiful. So I'm wondering if you felt, like, pressured to look that way in order to have a career?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think, first of all, just the confronting nature of being half-naked in front of a crew of people you barely know. Actually, now, what happens more often than not on films, is we have something call"}
{"id": "992346191", "date": "2021-04-30", "guest": "Kate Winslet", "title": "Kate Winslet On The Roles That Scare Her And How 'Titanic' Shaped Her Career", "question_index": 6, "text": "Have you had to think a lot about, like, what is beauty?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Look. I think there's huge pressure on women in the public eye. And the film industry, you know, is no exception to that. And I just want to live my life with complete integrity and sincerity and to a"}
{"id": "992346191", "date": "2021-04-30", "guest": "Kate Winslet", "title": "Kate Winslet On The Roles That Scare Her And How 'Titanic' Shaped Her Career", "question_index": 7, "text": "So you come from a family of actors, I think, on your mother's side?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. And we're listening to the interview Terry Gross recorded in December with Kate Winslet, who stars in the new HBO miniseries \"Mare Of Easttown.\" It airs Sunday nights at 10."}
{"id": "992346191", "date": "2021-04-30", "guest": "Kate Winslet", "title": "Kate Winslet On The Roles That Scare Her And How 'Titanic' Shaped Her Career", "question_index": 8, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So it's really interesting. The acting does come more from my mother's side. But my mother herself - and God rest her soul - she was never an actress. My mother was very, very shy and absolutely"}
{"id": "992346191", "date": "2021-04-30", "guest": "Kate Winslet", "title": "Kate Winslet On The Roles That Scare Her And How 'Titanic' Shaped Her Career", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". She always just hated it, which is interesting because then she went and married my dad, who was one of her brother's friends and was an actor. So my dad was an actor when I was younger and then lat"}
{"id": "992346191", "date": "2021-04-30", "guest": "Kate Winslet", "title": "Kate Winslet On The Roles That Scare Her And How 'Titanic' Shaped Her Career", "question_index": 10, "text": "Was your mother baffled that you wanted to go into acting when she so much wanted to avoid it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm like, quick, gather up the papers because it's always the back of some very important script."}
{"id": "992346191", "date": "2021-04-30", "guest": "Kate Winslet", "title": "Kate Winslet On The Roles That Scare Her And How 'Titanic' Shaped Her Career", "question_index": 11, "text": "So you left school when you were 16 because you didn't like school or because you wanted to become a professional actor?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I think - to be completely honest, she was always very encouraging and nurturing and supportive. Actually, it was more my dad who had been the out-of-work actor more than the in-work actor t"}
{"id": "992346191", "date": "2021-04-30", "guest": "Kate Winslet", "title": "Kate Winslet On The Roles That Scare Her And How 'Titanic' Shaped Her Career", "question_index": 12, "text": "How did \"Titanic\" change your life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because I wanted to become an actor but also because I had to get a job. I had to work. My - you know, my parents didn't have any kind of money for college fees or anything like that. I wasn't very in"}
{"id": "992346191", "date": "2021-04-30", "guest": "Kate Winslet", "title": "Kate Winslet On The Roles That Scare Her And How 'Titanic' Shaped Her Career", "question_index": 13, "text": "Kate Winslet, thank you so much for talking with us. It's been a pleasure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It definitely changed. It changed my private life. My private life suddenly wasn't private at all, and that was something that was very, very hard for me to come to terms with. And it changed my - I m"}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Alison Bechdel, has a new graphic memoir. But let's start with some background. She wrote and illustrated the graphic memoir \"Fun Home,\" which was adapted into a musical that won Tony Awards in 2015 for Best Musical, Best Score and Best Book for a Musical. The story is about how Bechdel grew up in the funeral home her parents ran, which was opened by her great-great-grandfather. The F-U-N in \"Fun Home\" is short for funeral. When Bechdel came out at age 19, she learned that her father had had gay relationships throughout his marriage. And Bechdel's mother knew about it all along. Soon after Bechdel talked with her father about his secret life, he threw himself in front of a truck and was killed - at least that's how Bechdel thinks he ended up killed by that truck. Before writing graphic memoirs, Bechdel wrote and illustrated a comic strip called \"Dykes To Watch Out For.\" Her new graphic memoir, \"The Secret To Superhuman Strength,\" is about her obsession with exercise and getting stronger - running, skiing, bicycling, Pilates, karate, weightlifting, mountain climbing, yoga. The exercise obsession has been an attempt to shut up her anxious mind, unite mind and body, reach a state of transcendence and look and feel as physically strong as possible. She's been inspired by the great literary transcendentalists as well as by musclemen. But extreme exercise has also created problems, like many obsessions do. Alison Bechdel, welcome back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 1, "text": "You're so in your head, thinking all the time, drawing autobiographical comics. But you're also really into your body and to strength and endurance. Tell us about the disconnect between mind and body that you wanted to fix.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks, Terry."}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 2, "text": "So hoping that outer transformation would lead to inner transformation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this has been going on for my whole life. You know, I feel like - I just have always had a lot of energy. And I've enjoyed physical activity. And it has worked out to be - to kind of save me fro"}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 3, "text": "You also have an inner old Republican man", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 4, "text": "inside you. Who is that man? And what is he - why is he a part of you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 5, "text": "What, the inner old Republican man?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I don't really believe that. But there is this strain in me that understands that rugged, individualist archetype, you know, like, you can do everything yourself. And you don't need anyone's help. S"}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 6, "text": "OK. And how is exercise a way to do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 7, "text": "You see exercise - your obsession with exercise is being a product of your generation. What are some of the trends in exercise that you've witnessed and participated in as well as some that you've witnessed and thought, not for me, thanks?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, exercise, for me, it is physical. It's very much about being in my body. But it's also kind of a metaphysical thing that I'm after. There's something that happens for me when I'm, you know, work"}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 8, "text": "You have not mentioned Jane Fonda aerobics, which was so big in - was it the '80s?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I feel like I have been - my life span has sort of coincided with the whole modern phenomenon of exercise. People didn't really exercise much before 1960, which is when I was born. So I grew up "}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 9, "text": "So you refer to Charles Atlas and how, you know, you wanted to be Charles Atlas when you were a kid reading comic books. But a lot of people won't remember who Charles Atlas is. So why don't you tell us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. My mother totally was a Jane Fonda fanatic. But that was happening at a time when I was very immersed in studying martial arts. There were a lot of similarities between the Jane Fonda workout and"}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Did you see yourself as the little, skinny guy who wanted to get muscles?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Charles Atlas was an early bodybuilder. And he made his fame and fortune by selling this - his program through, I think, mainly comic books for children, maybe - probably in other magazines, too. But "}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 11, "text": "And it was, of course, a very male image of a physically, like, enhanced body through exercise. And you were a girl looking at that. Did you want his body?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Yeah. All these ads - I mean, there were other kinds of bodybuilding ads in the comic books, too. And they all talked about skinny kids and skinny kids whose ribs stuck out. And I was cert"}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 12, "text": "So you met you mentioned Jack LaLanne on TV. And he had this, like, really early exercise show that was geared mostly to women who were home taking care of their home and taking care of their children. Describe your memories of the show. I remember when I was a kid kind of turning the the channels and watching him for a few minutes because it just seemed - it just seemed funny to me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's funny to me. I mean, I did. I guess there was a certain amount of, like, gender fluidity going on. It didn't seem - there seemed to be no dissonance between being a girl and this body. "}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 13, "text": "So you were deep into, like, building your muscles, but you hated gym. You hated the gym uniform. Was this - does this again have to do with groups, like not wanting to do exercise in a group setting in school?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was funny. I mean, he was very charming. When I look at some of the footage now - like, they have clips up on YouTube - it's super condescending. Like, he's just, you know, so talking down to these"}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Did anybody make fun of your body?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I just - you know, high school was just - you know, I was just paralyzed with self-consciousness for that whole period. And gym class sort of heightened it - you know, having to play sports and "}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 15, "text": "When you were old enough to start reading the literary transcendentalists, who also helped inspire your quest to unite mind and body and to reach some kind of transcendent state through, you know, physical workouts, who were you reading? And what were some of the ideas in those books that you found inspiring?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Uh, no. No. But I - they didn't mean to. I was, you know, completely just frozen with self-consciousness. Oh - and I would - I tried to undress in the toilet stall so people couldn't see me, but the g"}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 16, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Alison Bechdel. Her new graphic memoir is called \"The Secret To Superhuman Strength.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't actually read any of the real transcendentalists like like Emerson or Thoreau or Margaret Fuller until I was writing this book. I discovered them quite late in life. But I read Jack Kerouac's"}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Alison Bechdel. Her new graphic memoir, \"The Secret To Superhuman Strength,\" is about her obsession with exercise and all the psychological and physical reasons that have fed that obsession. She wrote the graphic memoir \"Fun Home\" that was adapted into the Tony Award-winning musical \"Fun Home.\" You were - you came out when you were 19 and you were in college. Did that affect your body image and how you wanted to look and how it was acceptable to look within the gay community?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't actually read any of the real transcendentalists like like Emerson or Thoreau or Margaret Fuller until I was writing this book. I discovered them quite late in life. But I read Jack Kerouac's"}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 18, "text": "And you were able to start dressing the way you wanted to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "of all the crazy female body image stuff I had picked up on during my teenage years - you know, all the worries about being too fat, all that craziness. Like, I had suddenly a political framework for "}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 19, "text": "After you came out to your mother, she told you about your father having had all these gay relationships throughout her marriage to him. And then you talked to your father about it, and he told you he wanted to dress in girl's clothes as a kid, but of course, he wasn't allowed to do it. But he wouldn't let you dress in boys' clothes. And I just think that's so - so I don't know what. I mean, he knew what it was like. But he prevented you from doing it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "after I came out. It was - high top sneakers were always for boys, and I was never allowed to have them. Well, once I was allowed to get a pair, but only once."}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 20, "text": "So after you talk to your father about how you were gay and about how he was gay and had this secret life, he did - not long after that, he died. And he was killed by a truck. And you're pretty confident that he threw himself in front of the truck because why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I honestly think he didn't grasp the parallel. I don't think - I know he was surprised when I came out. He had not expected that, which is so funny because it seems like, to me, I was so obv"}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 21, "text": "A month after his funeral, which was also a month before your 20th birthday, you went to a women's music festival with your then-girlfriend, Joan, who people will recognize from \"Fun Home\" if they've read the book or seen the musical. So this is a women's music festival in Michigan. Would you describe what the festival was like and why it was so important to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mother had recently asked him for a divorce. That - and it actually didn't - it wasn't my immediate thought, that he had killed himself. It wasn't - it was only after I got home on the day that he "}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 22, "text": "But you don't usually like being in groups. So this was different?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. The Michigan Womyn's Music Festival in - this was 1980. It was a really remarkable, sort of utopian experiment in the wilds of Michigan. It was a music festival that was all women. And I'd never"}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 23, "text": "My guest is Alison Bechdel. Her new graphic memoir is called \"The Secret To Superhuman Strength.\" We'll talk more after a break. But first, here's a song from the Tony Award-winning musical adaptation of Bechdel's graphic memoir \"Fun Home.\" The song is about coming out in college and her first girlfriend, Joan. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would attend this festival for many years. And eventually, I did get kind of worn down by the group aspect. But that - the first time I was there was really just magical and transformative and, you "}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross, back with Alison Bechdel. Her graphic memoir, \"Fun Home,\" was adapted into a Tony Award-winning musical. Her new graphic memoir, \"The Secret To Superhuman Strength,\" is about her obsession with exercise - running, bicycling, skiing, karate, yoga, mountain climbing, skiing. Bechdel is a self-satirist in examining the psychological and physical reasons behind these obsessions and how it's affected her life for better or worse. You write about relationships in your new book. And the woman who is now your spouse was in a relationship with somebody else when you started seeing her, but the idea was it was supposed to be a polyamorous lesbian relationship. I mean, she said to you, why don't you write about polyamorous lesbian relationships", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing, as Medium Alison) What happened last night? Are you really here? Joan. Joan. Joan. Joan. Joan. Hi, Joan. Don't wake up, Joan. Oh, my God. Last night - oh, my God, oh, my God, oh, my God, oh,"}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 25, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing, as Medium Alison) What happened last night? Are you really here? Joan. Joan. Joan. Joan. Joan. Hi, Joan. Don't wake up, Joan. Oh, my God. Last night - oh, my God, oh, my God, oh, my God, oh,"}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 26, "text": "Because her girlfriend had multiple girlfriends. I don't know if Holly herself did. Holly is the woman who is now your wife. So how did you feel about that, when you were seeing her and - was she seeing other people, too? She was in a relationship with somebody for sure, but...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 27, "text": "How did that work out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "the ability to openly acknowledge that my primary commitment was to my work. I feel like that had kind of been my downfall in these other relationships; just, like, my obsessiveness with my work life "}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 28, "text": "Did you ask yourself if your inability to, like, overcome jealousy was a flaw in yourself or a flaw in polyamorous relationships?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I mean, I - it - polyamory was very difficult. I thought I would be, like, fine when Holly went off with her other partner, that, you know, I'd get to focus on my work. But in fact, I was quite jeal"}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is Holly's other partner.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I felt like it was a flaw in myself that I was very interested in pursuing. And I - it was interesting to a point. You know, philosophically, it's interesting to think about, like, why do we have to h"}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 30, "text": "Yeah. And you had come to really like her because the three of you were hanging out together a lot.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes. She was an avid paraglider and died in an accident. So that was just - that just, you know, kind of stopped us in our tracks and..."}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 31, "text": "So after Gwen's tragic death and you and Holly remained a couple, did you both decide to be monogamous after that? Is that OK to ask?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. She was a really delightful person. And yeah, I was becoming friends with her, too."}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 32, "text": "So you're married now. You got married after the Supreme Court...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's fine to ask. We did not make any kind of sudden decision like that. It just sort of gradually crept up on us over the years. In fact, I feel like Holly continued to identify as polyamorou"}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 33, "text": "...Legalized gay marriage and marriage equality. How do you like marriage? Has it changed the relationship at all?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 34, "text": "When you were in your 40s, I think, you started to - a project to document the disintegration of your body. What were you feeling that led you to that project? And what exactly were you - what exactly was the project?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I see now that that was in fact - you know, we do get subsumed by these institutions. But I don't feel like it's really changed my relationship. I mean, I always felt essentially married to my partner"}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 35, "text": "And have you - are you still doing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And the idea was I'm going to monitor my aging process just to see what this is like."}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 36, "text": "So what have you been seeing? What kind of changes have you seen in the past approximately 20 years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I am, yeah."}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 37, "text": "You know what I like about the idea of your project documenting the changes in your body as you get older? - is I think it'd be wonderful to reach a place where I or we could look at our bodies as we get older and go, well, that's interesting as opposed to, oh, no, that's horrible", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I haven't really done this methodically, so it's hard to just, you know, juxtapose the images. Or, actually, I probably could if I'd sit down and spend some time on it. I see myself getting - you know"}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 38, "text": ". You know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I haven't really done this methodically, so it's hard to just, you know, juxtapose the images. Or, actually, I probably could if I'd sit down and spend some time on it. I see myself getting - you know"}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 39, "text": "Because there's this whole thing about how an aging body is like - it's really horrible. You know, when I was younger and visiting my parents, their older friends would always say to me, don't get old. And I thought, like, what kind of advice is that? Like, should we be dying instead of getting old?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 40, "text": "Like, what are you saying exactly? But anyways, instead of, like, being in denial or having to, like, try everything we possibly can to prevent a process that's kind of natural, to just - to reach a point where you can say, well, that's interesting - my body's changing with age. Is that something you're striving for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 41, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Alison Bechdel. Her new graphic memoir is called \"The Secret To Superhuman Strength.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it is. And I'm a little dismayed at my own resistance. I mean, we don't like aging, not because it's not attractive, but because it means we're dying. You know, that's the real reason we don't li"}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 42, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Alison Bechdel. Her new graphic memoir, \"The Secret To Superhuman Strength,\" is about her obsession with exercise and all the psychological and physical reasons that have fed that obsession. She also wrote the graphic memoir \"Fun Home\" that was adapted into the Tony Award-winning musical \"Fun Home.\" How have you drawn yourself differently as you've gotten older? 'Cause you started - you know, how long have you been drawing yourself in your comics?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it is. And I'm a little dismayed at my own resistance. I mean, we don't like aging, not because it's not attractive, but because it means we're dying. You know, that's the real reason we don't li"}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 43, "text": ". During the course of your book - like, in the book itself, your mother dies of cancer. And it's during the period - I guess around 2014, when - or 2012, when \"Fun Home\" was first published.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I haven't - I guess I first drew myself in an autobiographical comic in my 20s or late 20s, early 30s. So, yeah, I've had to, you know, get some kind of graphic handle on how I'm aging. And in this bo"}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 44, "text": "It must have been surreal to see your life and your parents' lives enacted in a musical on stage. I mean, you'd already taken that story and, you know, drawn and written it. But now there were other people embodying it, and you could watch from the audience. What did that feel like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". She hated all those cancer narratives, you know, of surviving and thriving. And in fact, she was quite private. She didn't want people to know she was sick. Her possible death was kind of looming ov"}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 45, "text": "So I want to ask you about something you said in The New Yorker. And you said that the aesthetic of gender neutrality appeals to you now and that you're always striving to be a generic person. And I'm wondering if you identify as she. So many people now are identifying as, you know, as nonbinary and using the word they instead of she or he to identify themselves. Is that something that you felt like you needed to think about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was amazing. You know, it's interesting talking to you now, like, I'm realizing how very closely that experience of seeing the play was bound up with my mother's death. And it was like both my pare"}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 46, "text": "Alison Bechdel, it's been great to talk with you again. Thank you so much. And congratulations on the new book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I identify as female, as a woman, as a she, but with a sort of my own little flourish of always feeling a certain amount of dissonance with that. You know, I cultivate a somewhat masculine appearance."}
{"id": "993815406", "date": "2021-05-05", "guest": "Alison Bechdel", "title": "Alison Bechdel Takes On Exercise Trends In 'The Secret to Superhuman Strength'", "question_index": 47, "text": "Alison Bechdel's new memoir is called \"The Secret To Superhuman Strength.\" Coming up, Justin Chang reviews one of the best films he's seen so far this year. It's called \"The Disciple.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks very much, Terry. It was fun talking with you."}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 0, "text": "So racial identity is a big part of your comedy when you're doing stand-up. Your father is white. Your mother is Black. Your father is, I think, of Swiss and German ancestry - do I have that right?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University, sitting in for Terry Gross. Sunday is Mother's Day. And we're going to listen back to some great stories ab"}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 1, "text": "And your mother is Xhosa?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He's Swiss. He's Swiss."}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 2, "text": "Thank you. I don't think I can do that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Xhosa."}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 3, "text": "And I know your mother was jailed - briefly, I hope - in South Africa, I assume for...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Xhosa."}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 4, "text": "...For opposing apartheid, for doing some kind of dissenting action?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 5, "text": "Oh, that's why she was jailed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Well, the dissenting action was being with a white person. And going into..."}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 6, "text": "Was the white person your father?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes."}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 7, "text": "Was he jailed for it, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, he was. Yeah. So - but that..."}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 8, "text": "Were you born yet when she was jailed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no. No. White people didn't get jailed for that. That was - white people were warned and asked not to do it again. But then if you were a Black person caught fraternizing across color boundari"}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 9, "text": "How old were you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. I was. I was."}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 10, "text": "She was jailed for three years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was everything from 3 years old all the way through to 6 years old."}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 11, "text": "So she had kept getting - she kept going in and out of jail for being with your father?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no, no, no, I'm saying during that time period. No, no, no. No. She was jailed for a month here and there and then, like, for a weekend and then for a week and so on. But I was so young, I did"}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 12, "text": "So your parents couldn't live together. That would have been illegal. And they couldn't marry.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes, yes. But that wasn't just her. I mean, this was a common occurrence. This was the states of the nation at that time is that many people of color would get arrested for what today is not cons"}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 13, "text": "That would have been illegal. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 14, "text": "How were they able to have any kind of relationship?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's correct."}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 15, "text": "So they couldn't live together. Where did they live? And where did you live?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "that's the two of them in a nutshell. They went for it. And that's really what the story was in South Africa. You know, as much as there was the people - there were the people on the forefront fightin"}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 16, "text": "So describe what your neighborhood in Soweto was like when you were growing up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I lived with my mom. So the way it works in South Africa is you were allowed to downgrade. So, you know, you could go - you could almost forfeit your rights and then go live in an area that was "}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it was wonderful. It was electric. You know, it's a - even today, Soweto is a - it's a beautiful community, you know? Everyone knows everybody's names, you know? There's just a sense of togetherne"}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 18, "text": "Were your parents still a couple when apartheid ended?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If everyone's suffering together, it doesn't seem so bad."}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 19, "text": "But there didn't need to be a charade anymore. Like, what was the charade that you would have to enact when the family got together under apartheid?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no. They weren't. They weren't. Well, I think they were - let me think. Actually, they were probably until I was, maybe, 10 or 11 years old. But they remained friends, I guess, because they ha"}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 20, "text": "So after your parents separated, your mother married a man who became the father of your two brothers. How old were you when you married?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh. Well, I wasn't enacting anything. I was a kid. So I was just - I was living my life. My mom would - she went to very elaborate - you know, through very elaborate schemes. I mean, she would disguis"}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 21, "text": "So you've described him as becoming alcoholic and abusive. Did he abuse you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I think I was, maybe, 12 years old or 13. Yeah, maybe around there."}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 22, "text": "And what did he - did he hit her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no. No. My mom was very protective of me. So I didn't suffer, you know, much of that, but, I mean, a home that is terrorized by an abusive drunk is terrorized all the same. You know, I feel li"}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 23, "text": "She left him and then...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is - you know, it's widely documented, and it's something my mom raised me not to be ashamed to speak about. Because that was always the biggest thing she said was, we live in"}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 24, "text": "...Went with another man. And when he found out about this other man after he and your mother were divorced, he shot her twice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 25, "text": "In the face and in the back?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, my mom didn't leave to go to another man. So my mom completely left the home, moved out with my brothers. I was already out of the home at that time. And she went and set up a new life. An"}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 26, "text": "But she survived.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yup, that's correct."}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 27, "text": "What kind of shape is she in now? Did she have a full recovery?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She did. She did."}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 28, "text": "How old were you the first time you saw \"The Wizard Of Oz\" and what impression did it make on you?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Lorna Luft is a singer and actress and the daughter of Judy Garland and Sidney Luft. Lorna Luft starred on Broadway in \"Promises, Promises\" and in the national tours of \"Grease,\" \"T"}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 29, "text": "So did your mother sing around the house when you were growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was about 4. Actually, I was a little bit older. Maybe I was about 5. And we were in our house in Holmby Hills. My brother Joe was about 2. And the movie was on television. And our nanny at the time"}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 30, "text": "What advice did your mother give you about singing when you were young?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, she would. I mean, she wouldn't - you know, everybody would - you know, she didn't constantly wake up and burst into song or open the refrigerator door and the light would go on and she would si"}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 31, "text": "Right. On one of her TV shows, she sang a song called \"Lorna,\" with a lyric, I think, written by Johnny Mercer, for you. How did the lyric go?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What she gave me about singing was, basically, I mean, when she would hear me sing, she, basically, would never - she would never criticize me. But she would say things just very, very tenderly. Try t"}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 32, "text": "Now, I know your mother cooked for some of your films. Was her cooking for the onscreen food or for the meals for the actors or both?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's hard to tell in that scene who's directing whom. As for the sauce recipe, it was published in 1996 in Catherine Scorsese's book \"Italianamerican: The Scorsese Family Cookbook.\" It was her last pr"}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 33, "text": "Well, in fact, there's a still from that scene on the cover of your mother's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was both, really. I think very often it was food for the actors off camera when she would show up on the set. And then particularly \"Goodfellas,\" certain scenes she cooked for, and I'm tryi"}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 34, "text": "...Book, \"Italianamerican.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 35, "text": "It's a great scene. I mean, in \"Goodfellas,\" your mother played Joe Pesci's mother.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 36, "text": "And in the scene that we're talking about, he and some of the boys are having dinner at his mother's house. And what she doesn't know is that they've just beaten up a guy, and he's sitting in the trunk of their car, which is parked just outside her house.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 37, "text": "Now, what did you tell your mother about this scene? How much did she know about what was really happening in the larger movie?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they have to dispose of the body. They think he's dead, but he isn't. They don't know that yet. And yeah, they stop off to get some food. Well, first they stop off to get a shovel to bury him. S"}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 38, "text": "Let's hear an excerpt of the scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I wouldn't tell her that there was a body in the trunk. No, we just - we - I just said, you know, your son's come home, and you haven't seen him in two or three days. He tells you he's working, yo"}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 39, "text": "Now, you used your mother as an actress in several of your films. You use her voice in \"King Of Comedy,\" a great film about a loser named Rupert Pupkin, who fancies himself a brilliant comic in need of a big break. And he spends his time sitting alone in his basement imagining...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 40, "text": "...That he's on late-night TV schmoozing with the stars.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 41, "text": "And in this scene, Pupkin, played by De Niro, is in the basement, and his mother, played by your mother, is yelling down to him to come upstairs. Let's hear it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 42, "text": "Now, what did you tell her about this scene and how did you decide to use her as De Niro's mother?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Rupert's mother) I don't mind you playing it, but lower it."}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 43, "text": "Now, did your mother ever worry or wonder", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's a good example of the kind of work that she did. She was so open and free, you know? It's interesting because I just said that Bob's character, he was given his - he was still living with"}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 44, "text": "about you? Were you up to strange things, imagining movies or making movies?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's a good example of the kind of work that she did. She was so open and free, you know? It's interesting because I just said that Bob's character, he was given his - he was still living with"}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 45, "text": "No privacy at all?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, not - there we were - I mean, considering the house setup in \"King Of Comedy\" where a person had a basement to himself, that was, like, a luxury. And what we had, we had, like, 3 1/2 rooms in th"}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 46, "text": "The back of your mother's cookbook has a list of all the roles that she had in your films and in other people's films, as well, including scenes that ended up on the cutting room floor. And you apparently cast her in a small role in \"Taxi Driver,\" but that scene never made it into the film. What was the scene? I'd love to hear about it.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to our Mother's Day show and our interview with Martin Scorsese. His mother, Katherine, often cooked for his film crews, acted in the films and published a cookbook, "}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 47, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a very small scene in which it was his first fare and basically consisted of her trying to get in the back of a cab with two big shopping bags, you know?"}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 48, "text": "So you didn't write the lines for your mother? You just had her improvise?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...We took it out of the picture. But she was in \"Mean Streets.\" She was in a lot of the films. I think a lot of the - really, the bigger, the more interesting things were that, for example, her in \"K"}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 49, "text": "She's - the impression I get from the documentary that you made about your parents, \"Italianamerican,\" is that she was a really good talker.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not at all. That was totally improvised."}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 50, "text": "You cast your father in some roles in your films, as well.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You see - the thing about her is my - her and my father - I learned about storytelling, I think. They told - she had a way of telling stories with a great sense of humor and good timing. And my "}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 51, "text": "How did you first start casting your parents? Was it an effort to just save money on extras? Or did you see something in them that you thought would really work on screen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 52, "text": "Did your parents disapprove of anything in your films or try to parent you while they were on your set?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what was really interesting was the - I learned it when I did the documentary on them, \"Italianamerican,\" where I learned about the storytelling and immediately crystallized it for me and made m"}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 53, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I don't need to. Never again. And my mother - when people went up to her and said, what do you think of the film? You know, what'd you think of your son's - the reaction to your son's film? "}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 54, "text": "Did you not want your relatives, your aunts and uncles to see it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that's all she kept telling people."}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 55, "text": "So was your mother really critical?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry asked him about his own mother."}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 56, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she's, you know, loving. But she's - it's - and I wouldn't even call it critical. My mother has always sort of been puzzled why I'm who I am. And I think one of the reasons is, is that if my mot"}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 57, "text": ". Now there's some very funny things about food in the new movie. You know, your character comes back to the mother's house, and she saves a lot of food in the freezer, where it's guaranteed to taste really bad after a while.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I would say, well, he liked it. But did you like it? No, of course, honey. But Johnny liked it? You know - so that was going to be my autobiography title, \"What Did Johnny Think?\""}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 58, "text": "And she buys all those horrible store brands. In the movie, it's Sweet Tooth sherbet.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 59, "text": "Oh - (unintelligible) perfect, though.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I made that up. But obviously..."}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 60, "text": "So is this - was this a problem at your home, too...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 61, "text": "...That your mother would buy all the cheap brands?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that part..."}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 62, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That part is - my mother could - we could afford anything, but she just didn't believe that there was - you know, like Debbie says in the movie, honey, there's no difference. The man in the store told"}
{"id": "994566291", "date": "2021-05-07", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Stories About Mothers, Featuring Trevor Noah, Martin Scorsese And More", "question_index": 63, "text": "I love the protective ice, yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, you know, there's a thing that I love in this movie, this sherbet that's been in the freezer for about 16 years and you can't even see it anymore. And I say to, you know, my mother in the movie, "}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Jean Smart, has been getting roles that really show off what she can do. And as was recently noted in Entertainment Weekly, she excels at absolutely everything. In the TV series Fargo,\" she played the hardened matriarch of a crime family. Last year in the HBO series \"Watchmen,\" she played an FBI agent. Now, she's co-starring in the HBO crime and family drama \"Mare Of Easttown\" as the mother of Kate Winslet's character. Her comedic timing was obvious in the '80s sitcom \"Designing Women,\" and in the early 2000s, when she won two Emmys for her guest-starring role in \"Frasier.\" This week, she returns to comedy in the new series \"Hacks\" which premieres Thursday on HBO Max. In \"Hacks,\" she plays Deborah Vance, a comic who overcame a lot of the obstacles women comics of her generation faced and became a top act in Vegas, where she regularly performs at one of the big casinos. When the series begins, her career is in decline. Her jokes are kind of funny, but way past their expiration dates. The casino is cutting back her dates and is trying to book an act that can draw a younger crowd. In an attempt to save Deborah's career, her manager pairs her with a young woman comedy writer, Ava Daniels, who he also manages, to write material for Deborah that will sound more up to date. Ava, played by Hannah Einbinder, thinks of herself as cutting edge and cringes at the idea of writing for a comic she considers washed up and too showbizzy. But Ava desperately needs work because she was canceled after tweeting a joke about a closeted senator who sent his gay son to conversion therapy. So Ava reluctantly flies to Vegas to meet with Deborah, and Deborah grudgingly hires her. At one of their first meetings, Deborah tells Ava that the joke she's written for her aren't funny. Then, Deborah asks Ava if she's a lesbian, to which Ava responds that Deborah is her employer, which makes it inappropriate for her to ask that. And then Ava goes on to describe, in graphic detail, her sexual experiences with women and men and concludes by telling Deborah this.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 1, "text": "Jean Smart, welcome to FRESH AIR. It's a pleasure to have you on the show. You're terrific in this as you've been...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Deborah Vance) Oh, look who's talking. I just got a TED Talk about yours."}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 2, "text": "Yeah, for so long. So, you know, you've done a lot of comedy, but this is the first time you've played a comic. Do you have any favorite jokes of the bad jokes that your character tells?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 3, "text": "Because they're both funny and bad at the same time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 4, "text": "Are there things you related to about the generational conflict in this, you know, because, you know, the young comic who starts writing for your character thinks of herself as so like, you know, cutting edge and a little transgressive. And she really has kind of contempt for your character because it represents everything that she said the younger comic doesn't want to be.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure, you know? I mean, I don't think of her jokes as bad necessarily. It's just that, you know, she's sort of got her stock-style jokes that she knows. She knows her audience really well. And she"}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 5, "text": "Is there a generational conflict that's similar for actors, either about the material that's acceptable in a play or movie or TV show, or how standards have changed for the language you can use and what you can talk about and how sexual you can get?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know, she - it's just sort of funny to watch them, you know, navigate this. They come from completely different worlds, or at least seemingly at first. And Hannah actually is a stand-up comic. S"}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure. Oh, sure. Yes, I used to make a joke to friends. I'd say, I would never do any kind of nudity while my parents were still alive, but they lived so long that now I'm at the age where no one a"}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 7, "text": "So your new series \"Hacks,\" the comedy series, starts on HBO Max, on Thursday. Meanwhile, there's, I think, three episodes left of \"Mare Of Easttown,\" the series that you're co-starring in on HBO that's part crime drama and part family drama. Kate Winslet plays Mare Sheehan, who's a police detective trying to solve a murder. But there's a lot going on in her personal life. Her son died by suicide, leaving behind his young son who Mare is raising because the boy's mother has been in rehab. You've moved in. You're Mare's mother, and you've moved in with Mare to help her raise the grandson, your great-grandson. But you and Mare are afraid that you're about to lose custody because the boy's mother is getting out of rehab. You've been trying to prepare him for the likelihood he'll be returning to his mother. And that's made Mare very angry with you because she wants to keep custody. And let's hear a clip in which she's showing how angry she is that you're trying to prepare him to go back to his mother. The clip starts with Kate Winslet as Mare.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know? So that kind of took care of it right there. But certainly, obviously, things have changed dramatically. I guess part of that is just natural evolution of anything, you know, when you loo"}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 8, "text": "Wow. That's - you're really good in this. How did you get the part?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Mare) Understand me?"}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "and I said, HBO? Kate Winslet? Unless I really hate the part..."}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 10, "text": "So \"Mare Of Easttown\" is set in Delaware County, Penn., just outside of Philadelphia. And Delaware County has some pretty wealthy neighborhoods and some working-class suburbs. And you probably saw this, or at least heard about it, that \"Saturday Night Live\" did a parody of the accents.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I'll say yes right now. But I love their relationship because, I mean, even though it's a bit dysfunctional, I hope that there is - that it comes across to the audiences as - that they still - ther"}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 11, "text": "Did you see it - of the accents of \"Mare Of Easttown\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 12, "text": "Yeah. And she's the one who got the brunt of the", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Kate sent it to me."}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 13, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Kate sent it to me."}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 14, "text": "...Of the satire in this. And the premise of the show is that instead of saying murder and daughter because of the perhaps overly exaggerated Philadelphia accents, it's like mu-mu-mu (ph) - I can't even do it right - mordor (ph) and doorter (ph). Yeah, you do it. You do it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was hilarious."}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 15, "text": "So did you have, like, an accent coach?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't know quite where they were going with some of it, but yes, they called it murder dirter (ph) - murder daughter. But yes, like one of the examples of that accent is the way they say water"}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 16, "text": "Philadelphia has a pretty distinctive O. What were you told about saying O?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", which you're supposed to be thinking about it, what your character's supposed to be thinking about. That's the hard part of doing an accent, but it's always fun to do accents."}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, that was the hardest one. I said to Brad, the writer, one time, I said, really, Brad? I think this sentence has seven O's in it. You're killing me here..."}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know? That's a tough one. I mean, or like for instance, I think Kate had a line where she says to her ex-husband, go home, Frank. And you - instead of saying go home, you'd say, geh hem (ph). F"}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 19, "text": "When things shut down because of COVID, you were, like, 85% done with your part for the series. What happened to the other 15%?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's sort of a recipe for making you look like a bad actor."}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 20, "text": "So you shot \"Hacks\" during the pandemic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, then I started - was in talks about doing \"Hacks.\" And as it turned out, I was able to go back to Philly, finish my scenes just in time to come back into town, back to L.A. and start \"Hacks\" las"}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 21, "text": "How did you make sure - how did they make sure everybody was going to be safe?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 22, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jean Smart. Her new comedy series, \"Hacks,\" premieres on HBO Max Thursday. She's currently co-starring in HBO's \"Mare of Easttown.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they were as careful as could be humanly possible, but, of course, there had to be a certain amount of trust among the actors. We didn't really know each other from Adam. I mean, the only actor "}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jean Smart. Her new comedy series \"Hacks\" premieres on HBO Max Thursday. You can also see her now in the HBO series \"Mare Of Easttown\" playing the mother of Kate Winslet's character. Her breakout role was on TV as one of the stars of the '80s sitcom \"Designing Women.\" You've played, like, brassy, cynical, sarcastic women in comedies and in dramas. In Entertainment Weekly, you were described as the reigning Meryl Streep of tough broad types.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they were as careful as could be humanly possible, but, of course, there had to be a certain amount of trust among the actors. We didn't really know each other from Adam. I mean, the only actor "}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 24, "text": "So I want to play an example of that. And this is from your role in \"Fargo\" when you played the matriarch of a crime family that controls Fargo. And you've taken over from your husband after he had a debilitating stroke. Meanwhile, the Kansas City mafia made an offer to take over your operation. And in this scene, you meet the gangster representing the Kansas City family. And you make a counteroffer, an offer for a partnership between their family and your crime family. So in this scene, you're laying out the terms of your deal and then warn him not to underestimate you. And the mobster from Kansas City is played by Brad Garrett. You speak first.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 25, "text": "You must have loved that speech when you read it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Floyd) No. My husband would have killed you where you stood the first time you met. So be glad you're talking to his wife."}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 26, "text": "So I read that initially when you got the part and the wardrobe came out", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I did. That was the speech they gave you to audition with for Noah. And I said, that tells me so much about this person."}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 27, "text": "and the hairdresser came out that you looked at yourself in the mirror and you actually burst into tears. What was the problem? What were you seeing in the mirror?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I did. That was the speech they gave you to audition with for Noah. And I said, that tells me so much about this person."}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 28, "text": "What about the clothes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, I was very much - it was very much a collaboration. The costume designer and I had great fun coming up with the sort of less than attractive but very practical wardrobe. But - and then I"}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 29, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jean Smart. She stars in the new comedy series \"Hacks,\" which premieres Thursday on HBO Max. She's currently costarring in the HBO series \"Mare Of Easttown.\" We'll be back after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 30, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Jean Smart. Her new comedy series \"Hacks\" premieres tomorrow on HBO Max. She plays a Vegas comic whose jokes have become out of date and stale. To rescue her career, her manager teams her up with a young woman comic to write more current, edgy material. Needless to say, they constantly clash. Smart is also currently costarring in the HBO series \"Mare Of Easttown\" as the mother of Kate Winslet's character. Her breakout role was on TV as one of the stars of the '80s sitcom \"Designing Women.\" She won two Emmys for her guest appearances on the sitcom \"Frasier.\" So I'm going to squeeze in one more clip. This is from \"Frasier.\" This is the role that you won two Emmys for. And you're hilarious in this. So for people who don't know the sitcom \"Frasier,\" Frasier is a psychiatrist who has a radio advice call-in show. And you played Lana Lenley, who was one of the most popular and pretty girls in high school. And Frasier had a crush on you. And now, years later, you run into each other at a cafe. And you're a fan of his radio show. You hit it off. And you end up spending the night together. And this is like Frasier's high school dream come true.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 31, "text": "And in the morning, you wake up in his bed. You still have a glass of wine on the night table next to you, which you used in the scene I'm about to play to swallow some pills later in the scene. You'll hear a reference to that. But you won't be able to see it. And so you wake up in the morning together. Things are still dreamy between the two of you until - OK. Here is the scene. You speak first.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 32, "text": "Oh, you're so good in that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Lana) Oh, this is nice."}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 33, "text": "What do you think about when you hear that back?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Lana) Oh, this is nice."}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 34, "text": "Did it say in the script, get louder every time you say put your brother on? Or was that something you just figured out you should do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it was so much fun. That was the first episode I did as that character. And it was my favorite one."}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 35, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 36, "text": "You know, you were so good in that scene, they brought you back for another season. And that - it was the second season. And you won an Emmy for that role. So you grew up in Seattle, right, where Frazier was set? How did you get interested in acting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm - oh, dear. OK, you know? People still come up and say, put your brother on the phone."}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 37, "text": "When you were getting started, what were some of your day jobs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But he liked me. And so I really got bitten by the bug. So I told my parents that I wanted to major in theater in college. And my mother was not too happy with me. But after I started doing some pla"}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 38, "text": "You never - you were able to make a living acting right from the start?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You mean after I got out of college? I'm embarrassed to say I've never had another day job."}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 39, "text": "How'd you do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It wasn't much of a living, but yeah."}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 40, "text": "Did you go through any fallow periods where you thought, I'm never going to get a role again?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there's a lot of professional theater in Seattle. And between Seattle and the Oregon Shakespeare Festival in Ashland, Ore., where I would do summers, I managed to just get by, you know? You'd al"}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 41, "text": "Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The only time that springs to mind that that happened, ironically, was after \"Fargo.\" I, you know, got great reviews. The show was a big hit. I think I won the Critics Choice Award for that role - and"}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 42, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Jean Smart. Her new comedy series \"Hacks\" premieres on HBO Max Thursday. She's currently costarring in HBO's \"Mare Of Easttown.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I shouldn't say this. But I think it was because of the way I looked. And all of a sudden, it was sort of like, oh, dear. You know, she's an older woman. And now what do we do with her? And I don't kn"}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 43, "text": "When you were younger, did you wish you were an au jeune?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 44, "text": "Well, Jean Smart, I want to thank you so much for talking with us. And I want to say I'm very sorry because you're - I know you lost your husband in March, and I know you must still be grieving. And I appreciate that you're trying to carry on. And I appreciate you coming to our show and talking about your work and your life. I know from my own life and from other people who I'm close to, that there are times when the career seems to be going so well, but there's something that's so awful or tragic that's happened in one's personal life. And I feel like that's the situation that you're in now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I mean, because I knew that there wasn't longevity there. Very rarely could someone who was a classic au jeune sort of make the transition."}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 45, "text": "He was an actor. You met on the set of \"Designing Women.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I was talking about a friend with that the other night who said, oh, no, no, no, don't go there. And I said, I don't, I really don't think that way, that the other shoe has to drop or - I mean, "}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 46, "text": "It must have been strange because he played Annie Potts' boyfriend. So you had to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, he's a wonderful actor."}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 47, "text": "We had to watch him being somebody else's boyfriend. Was that strange?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Yeah."}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 48, "text": "But then you have to ask yourself, am I supposed to keep this a secret from the other people", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I don't know. But yeah, we were never apart. It was that - it's actually a great way to meet somebody at work. When you have to be together, but it's not a date. It's great because you're getting to"}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 49, "text": "who I'm working with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I don't know. But yeah, we were never apart. It was that - it's actually a great way to meet somebody at work. When you have to be together, but it's not a date. It's great because you're getting to"}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 50, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I don't remember feeling that way because I remember I found out that Delta had worked with him on \"Love Boat\" once. So I said, go find out if he's married or has a girlfriend or something. So she"}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 51, "text": "So no secrets there. She was in on it at the beginning.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, thanks, Delta."}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 52, "text": "It's strange. You know, like, during the epidemic, I've known so many people who've gotten sick, who've had surgery, who've died, who've, you know, like, some horrible health crisis not related to COVID more than usual. I don't - and I don't know if you've experienced that, too - I mean, certainly with your husband. But it just - I don't know. I don't know what to make of it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 53, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have two friends who lost their husbands..."}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 54, "text": "I'm just so sorry. And I appreciate your strength in continuing to work and to move forward. And I'll just add one thing about that. When I was growing up - and I lived in an apartment building, and the neighbor right upstairs from me, her husband died. And I felt like, well, I know what it's like for women to lose their husband. That means it's the end of their life because most women then - they didn't work. Their identity had so much to do with their marriage. Their income was completely tied up with their marriage. And you know, I thought, like, what is left for somebody after their husband dies? But I - you know, I don't know if you grew up thinking that, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...In the last six months. Yeah. It's - you know, I mean, obviously, my husband didn't have COVID, but I still feel like he was a victim of the pandemic because I took him - when he started not feelin"}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 55, "text": "Well, I just want to end by saying that, you know, I love your acting and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't remember thinking that exactly. But for some reason, even though my mom was a housewife, I didn't ever expect that a man would support me or take care of me. And I don't know why I thought tha"}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 56, "text": "...I admire your strength. And I wish you well during this period.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 57, "text": "And you know, thank you for coming on our show in spite of the fact that I'm sure you're still grieving. And - I apologize if I'm sounding clumsy in expressing all these things but, you know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 58, "text": "Yeah. Well, what can I say? Thank you. And I wish you well.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it's hard. I mean, I - you know, I have two friends who lost their husbands this year, and I sympathized and everything. But I didn't have a clue what they were going through - not a clue. It's - "}
{"id": "996175170", "date": "2021-05-12", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 59, "text": "My interview with Jean Smart was recorded on Monday. She stars in the new HBO Max comedy series \"Hacks.\" It starts streaming tomorrow. You can also see her in the current HBO series \"Mare Of Easttown.\" After we take a short break, jazz critic Kevin Whitehead will review a new album by alto saxophonist Vincent Herring. He started the album last year before he got COVID and completed it after he recovered. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you. Thank you."}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 0, "text": "One of the things you're famous for now is your sexy image, right? That's one of the things you became famous for when you became a star. But I think when you started performing music, it was mostly in pubs to audiences of men.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Tom Jones has collaborated with many artists over his long career. He has a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame and was knighted by the Queen. He's been a coach on the British version of \"The Voice.\" A"}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 1, "text": "So what were you singing in the pubs on Saturday nights just to working men?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, both. It was - I sang in pubs, which was mixed, you know? But then sometimes on a Saturday night in a working men's club, you would have - some of these clubs were men-only. When I started, I wa"}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 2, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, in Wales, they like big voices. So I would be singing ballads - you know, Frankie Laine, you know, type songs and - you know, like that and then some - you know, some Welsh songs as we"}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 3, "text": "Let's jump ahead a little bit to when you got your first record contract and you started recording. Let's talk about your first hit, \"It's Not Unusual.\" And this kind of really sets the style for you - like, you know, lots of brass, a big arrangement. And this is the era when we're talking about The Beatles, The Rolling Stones. This is 1965. In America, it was, like, the height of the British invasion. You know, Herman's Hermits, The Rolling Stones, Petula Clark, The Beatles are all on the hits along with Motown. And you're coming along and doing this, like, really kind of brassy - it's not a guitar band. It's not a band of songwriters. Did you feel like you were going to be, like, sticking out like a sore thumb in a way doing something really different?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know? You know?"}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 4, "text": "Well, why don't we hear it? This is Tom Jones' first big hit, \"It's Not Unusual.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. What was happening was when my - the guy that was recording me, Peter Sullivan - when he saw me in a club in Wales, he was looking for more rock material because I was singing - you know, the band"}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 5, "text": "OK, so that was your first big hit. And how did you go about creating the image to go along with that? When did the bump-and-grind pelvis stuff start coming in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) It's not unusual to be loved by anyone. It's not unusual to have fun with anyone. But when I see you hanging about with anyone, it's not unusual to see me cry. I want to die. It's not unusua"}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 6, "text": "Did you ask yourself at the time, like, in the mid-'60s, how you thought your kind of sex appeal compared to, say, Mick Jagger's or Paul McCartney's or John Lennon's? - you know, because you were recording at the same time. I think your audiences were a little different.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that was - you know, that was always there because of singing rock tunes in the '50s in clubs and pubs and, you know, dance halls. That just came along with it. You know, I was moving because I "}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 7, "text": "One of the things that apparently always happens at your concerts is that there are some women who throw their panties at you, throw them onto the stage. Do you remember the very first time that happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, the audiences weren't that different. It was just - I was appealing to a wider range of people. You know, like, in Wales, for instance, on a Friday night, I would sing in a YMCA, you know, to youn"}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 8, "text": "So when you started to think, like, it was backfiring, what did you - did you do anything to try to stop it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It was in the Copacabana in New York in 1968. It was a supper club. And the singer is on the same - the stage - the band is on the stage. But the singer is on the dance floor, which is at - and "}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I didn't. At the beginning, you know, I would pick them up and play around with them, you know, because you learn that whatever happens on stage, you try to turn it to your advantage and not get"}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 10, "text": "I want to play another record, and this is \"Delilah.\" And this is another one of your really, like, big productions - you know, like, big arrangement behind you. And you were, like - you're so passionate in this that you have to murder the woman", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2003 interview with singer Tom Jones. He's now 80 years old and has a new album of material."}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 11, "text": ", you know?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2003 interview with singer Tom Jones. He's now 80 years old and has a new album of material."}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 13, "text": "Let's hear the song. This is another one of Tom Jones' hits from the '60s, \"Delilah.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a song that was written by Les Reed, who co-wrote \"It's Not Unusual.\" And, you know, he wrote the song and played it to me. And I said, yes, it sounds great. You know, it sounds - but it really"}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 14, "text": "Is there a part of you during a concert that ever feels or ever felt, OK, enough with the panties and all that stuff; let's just, like, sit still and listen to my voice, listen to me sing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I saw the light on the night that I passed by her window. I saw the flickering shadows of love on her blind. She was my woman. As she deceived me, I watched and went out of my mind. My, my, "}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 15, "text": "Yeah, right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, not so much sit still. But the trouble is with - you know, with the panty throwing, especially if you're doing a ballad, if you're trying to create a moment, you know, in a song, you don't want "}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 16, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know, especially if you're doing a ballad, you know? It's not too bad with uptempo stuff, you know, but it takes away from the music. That's the problem with it - you see? - because most of the"}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 17, "text": "What was it like for you when this whole, like, sex image started happening? It strikes me as the kind of thing - you're in big trouble if you take it too seriously.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that's when the underwear-throwing starts."}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, even singing as a teenager, you know, when I sang in school, it would get a reaction. You know, that was my ace in the hole..."}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 19, "text": "So what are the dangers of taking it too seriously?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...As far as the girls were concerned, you know? I mean - so I knew that, you know, the girls liked what I was doing. So it was there from an early age. But it just - you know, when you get your first"}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 20, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", I think you'd burn yourself out, you know, if you tried to live up to your reputation, you know? You couldn't do it, you know? I don't think so anyway, unless you were a Superman."}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 21, "text": "OK, time for another song. Now, this is another one of your big hits, \"What's New Pussycat?\" And the really funny thing about this song - it's your big novelty hit, but it's written by the brilliant and very sophisticated songwriting team of Burt Bacharach and Hal David.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But you have to understand why, you know? I mean, I know - or I think I do, anyway - that, first of all, you know, it's my voice because I was selling - you know, \"It's Not Unusual\" started to sell wo"}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 22, "text": "So this was a theme for a movie of the same name. How did you get to sing the title song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 23, "text": "How did you like the song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Burt Bacharach wanted - which he told me, you know, when I met him - he wanted a big voice to sing the song because it was for a Woody Allen film. And it was a crazy movie, and it's a crazy song"}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 24, "text": "Well, let's hear it. This is Tom Jones' \"What's New Pussycat?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when he first played it to me, I didn't like it because I couldn't quite - because it's a very unusual tune, you see? It's - so he played it on piano, and he sang it to me when he was writing th"}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 25, "text": "Now I want to get to one of my personal favorites, which is the theme from the James Bond movie, \"Thunderball.\"", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross. Let's get back to Terry's 2003 interview with singer Tom Jones. He became a pop star and sex symbol in the 1960s with songs like \"It's Not U"}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 26, "text": "No, I love all those Bond themes. And this one is so - oh, it's so - what's the word I'm looking for?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross. Let's get back to Terry's 2003 interview with singer Tom Jones. He became a pop star and sex symbol in the 1960s with songs like \"It's Not U"}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 27, "text": "Very, very dramatic.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Dramatic?"}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 28, "text": "And it's very insinuating. God knows what it's actually about. I don't know if anybody's ever made - been able to make out", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 29, "text": "details of the lyric.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 30, "text": "I almost laugh when I hear this record because, you know, there's a lot of big arrangements on your records. But in this one, I mean, the brass is really shrieking in the background. And there's all these, like, themes from the movie coming up. In - you know, in the arrangement behind you. And I was thinking, if all this was happening in real time, it would be hard to sing. I mean, it would be - it's, like, overpowering arrangement. You'd probably have to, like, stop and laugh almost.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Well, Don Black wrote the lyric, you know? And I think he - I don't think he ever explained it, you know, what it was. It was just - you know, the words came into his head. And he wrote them down."}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 31, "text": "The great John Barry. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's John Barry. You know, John Barry did - he wrote..."}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 32, "text": "Like \"Goldfinger.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Of course. He wrote the melody. And, of course, he did the arrangements. So I knew what to expect because of the Bond songs that had been done..."}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 33, "text": "When I interviewed John Barry and we talked about \"Thunderball,\" he said that, initially, they wanted the song to be \"Mr. Kiss Kiss Bang Bang.\" But the distributor of the movie thought, no. It has to be the title theme. The title has to be in the song. The song has to be called \"Thunderball.\" So then the lyricist had to come up with, like, a lyric with \"Thunderball\" in it. And they all -", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. \"Goldfinger\" was the same kind of song. And Shirley Bassey did that. And it was a male version of \"Goldfinger,\" really, that I - when I did \"Thunderball,\" you know, because Shirley Bassey is "}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 34, "text": "the songwriters seemed to not really know exactly what the song was about. But then they had to convince you to do the song. Well, I guess you were willing to do it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. \"Goldfinger\" was the same kind of song. And Shirley Bassey did that. And it was a male version of \"Goldfinger,\" really, that I - when I did \"Thunderball,\" you know, because Shirley Bassey is "}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 35, "text": "They asked you to do the song. And Barry said that you said, what's the song about? And he said, I don't know. Just go in the studio and sing your heart out like Shirley Bassey did.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 36, "text": "Is that your memory, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 37, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And he said, and at the end, there's a high note. And the arrangement goes on for quite a while. So he said, try and hold the note as long as possible. So I did. And I closed my eyes. And I held "}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 38, "text": "Well, good job.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "but I did it, you know, because it's - you know, that's the way it is. But you're right, you know? He said just - you know, don't read into the lyric. Don't try and figure out what it is. Just - you k"}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 39, "text": "Let's hear \"Thunderball.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "but I did it, you know, because it's - you know, that's the way it is. But you're right, you know? He said just - you know, don't read into the lyric. Don't try and figure out what it is. Just - you k"}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 40, "text": "This is Tom Jones.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 41, "text": "That's Tom Jones singing \"Thunderball,\" one of his hits. You, as we've discussed, have this very swarthy image. When you were young, you were in bed for a year. You had tuberculosis. How did a year of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) His days of asking are all gone. His fight goes on and on, and on. But he thinks that the fight is worth it all, so he strikes like thunderball."}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 42, "text": "Two years? How did two years of being sick - and you can tell me how old you were because I'm not sure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was two years."}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 43, "text": "Right. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, 12."}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 44, "text": "Oh, just as your voice is changing, too, huh?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was 12 to 14."}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 45, "text": "Boy, that's a lot to go through at one time...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah, going through puberty, too. I mean, that was..."}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 46, "text": "...Particularly for a singer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 47, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "you know, seeing the girls playing in the street and not being able to go out is - not only the girls, I mean, all my friends. But, you know, that's when you start to notice girls, really..."}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 48, "text": "Well, how'd it affect your life to be sick for a couple of years, years that are turning points in every child's life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Is at that time. So it was a very frustrating time for me."}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 49, "text": "Did you see singing as an alternative to the mine world yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, another thing was they told me that I shouldn't sing, you know, because I couldn't - I shouldn't do anything that - I couldn't put any effort into anything, you know? I couldn't do anything phys"}
{"id": "996828772", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Tom Jones", "title": "Tom Jones Remembers When Audiences Threw Underwear And Room Keys At Him", "question_index": 50, "text": "Well, I want to thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no. Singing to me was a very natural thing to do. I wasn't thinking that it would sort of get me out of Wales or anything. I loved living in Wales. But it was a thing that I - singing was a thin"}
{"id": "996830427", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Jacques D'Amboise", "title": "Remembering NYC Ballet Principal Dancer Jacques D'Amboise", "question_index": 0, "text": "You audition the children to see if they can be in your classes. How do you audition kids who don't have any formal dance training yet?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Jacques d'Amboise, a longtime principal dancer with the New York City Ballet, died last week at age 86. A legendarily talented and committed performer, teacher and choreographer, d'"}
{"id": "996830427", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Jacques D'Amboise", "title": "Remembering NYC Ballet Principal Dancer Jacques D'Amboise", "question_index": 1, "text": "What kind of line do you like to walk between fun and discipline? And I'm sure you want, you know, your students to be as disciplined as possible and to dance as well as possible. On the other hand, I don't know how much pressure you want to put on them, you know, so that they worry about not living up to expectations.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not who's the best, who tries the hardest. For one hour, you're giving steps to children. And they don't know their right from their left. And you're demanding excellence. And you're demanding silence"}
{"id": "996830427", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Jacques D'Amboise", "title": "Remembering NYC Ballet Principal Dancer Jacques D'Amboise", "question_index": 2, "text": "Let's talk about how you started dancing. How did you start to dance?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There is a thing called precision. There's a thing called editing. Being precise and knowing how to edit - and that's the secret of being creative. So I'll start by saying to a class of - an auditoriu"}
{"id": "996830427", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Jacques D'Amboise", "title": "Remembering NYC Ballet Principal Dancer Jacques D'Amboise", "question_index": 3, "text": "You've run into a lot of your boy students who are a little uncomfortable about being possibly associated with ballet. What about you when you were young? Did your friends give you a hard time about it? Were you embarrassed about it yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my mother was determined that her children not be bums in the street in trouble. So when my sister went to a ballet class, I was dragged along, made to sit and watch. Madame Seda up 181st and St"}
{"id": "996830427", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Jacques D'Amboise", "title": "Remembering NYC Ballet Principal Dancer Jacques D'Amboise", "question_index": 4, "text": "Was there a moment for you when you knew, this is it - I am now going to retire from performing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know, they'd all know that my gang was out front, you know?"}
{"id": "996830427", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Jacques D'Amboise", "title": "Remembering NYC Ballet Principal Dancer Jacques D'Amboise", "question_index": 5, "text": "What was that moment?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "996830427", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Jacques D'Amboise", "title": "Remembering NYC Ballet Principal Dancer Jacques D'Amboise", "question_index": 6, "text": "Why not? Why is it so hard to remember?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "First, injuries and - serious injuries and in the hospital and a doctor saying, that's it - you're not going to dance again. But Balanchine was saying, no, you have to come back. I need you. You have "}
{"id": "996830427", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Jacques D'Amboise", "title": "Remembering NYC Ballet Principal Dancer Jacques D'Amboise", "question_index": 7, "text": "Well, when you do look at somebody dancing one of the ballets that you did, what emotional response do you have? Is it, oh, that's nice, someone carrying it on? Or is it envy that they can still dance, and you can't?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's like somebody else. I've become somebody else. It's not - my body can't move that way anymore. I don't even feel like I was a dancer like that. It's somebody else. I look at it and say, it's anot"}
{"id": "996830427", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Jacques D'Amboise", "title": "Remembering NYC Ballet Principal Dancer Jacques D'Amboise", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "doing my roles. No. What happens is I..."}
{"id": "996830427", "date": "2021-05-14", "guest": "Jacques D'Amboise", "title": "Remembering NYC Ballet Principal Dancer Jacques D'Amboise", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well, Jacques d'Amboise, I want to thank you very much for talking with us about dance.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Look at them dancing. And unless they do something special for it that excites me and thrills me, I don't like ballet. I know it so well. I know everything about it. There are a few dancers, male d"}
{"id": "998551050", "date": "2021-05-20", "guest": "Jeffrey Gettleman", "title": "COVID Is The 'Nightmare We Really Wanted To Avoid,' India-Based Journalist Says", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The CDC has relaxed its guidelines for people who are vaccinated, but the pandemic is far from over. COVID is rampaging through India, and epidemiologists are concerned about current and future variants from India spreading to other countries. Joining us from New Delhi, India, is Jeffrey Gettleman, The New York Times South Asia bureau chief. He's covering the COVID crisis and the desperation that has spread through India. He writes that crematories are so full of bodies, it's as if a war just happened. The night sky glows from mass cremations. Sickness and death are everywhere. There isn't sufficient genomic sequencing being done for scientists to know for sure which variant is predominating and whether the new variant in India is especially transmissible or deadly. Gettleman is witnessing a breakdown, a collapse, but he says it didn't have to be this way in India. We're going to talk about what went wrong, what this crisis means for India and the rest of the world and what it's like to live through this in New Delhi with his wife and two children. Jeffrey Gettleman previously worked as The New York Times East Africa bureau chief based in Kenya and wrote a memoir about his time in Africa called \"Love Africa.\" He won a 2012 Pulitzer Prize for international reporting. Jeffrey Gettleman, welcome back to FRESH AIR. How are you? How is your family?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "998551050", "date": "2021-05-20", "guest": "Jeffrey Gettleman", "title": "COVID Is The 'Nightmare We Really Wanted To Avoid,' India-Based Journalist Says", "question_index": 1, "text": "Give us a sense of how many people you know who are or have been sick and who have died from COVID.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for asking, and thanks for having me on the show. It's been a really tough experience witnessing this pandemic tear through India. We've been here for more than a year since the beginning, a"}
{"id": "998551050", "date": "2021-05-20", "guest": "Jeffrey Gettleman", "title": "COVID Is The 'Nightmare We Really Wanted To Avoid,' India-Based Journalist Says", "question_index": 2, "text": "You mentioned that one of your children got tested twice, the first time positive, the second time negative. Are you afraid to even go out with your child to get tested and to go to a site where they're doing the testing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it's countless. I mean, I've had so many friends who were positive. One of our children tested positive. We don't know if he was indeed sick or that was a false positive, even though these tests a"}
{"id": "998551050", "date": "2021-05-20", "guest": "Jeffrey Gettleman", "title": "COVID Is The 'Nightmare We Really Wanted To Avoid,' India-Based Journalist Says", "question_index": 3, "text": "You describe in your reporting that the skies are filled with smoke from cremations. Can you give us a sense of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So a lot of the services in India can come to your house. So we get food delivered. We have the testing service come to our house. We try to minimize our contact with people right now, both for our sa"}
{"id": "998551050", "date": "2021-05-20", "guest": "Jeffrey Gettleman", "title": "COVID Is The 'Nightmare We Really Wanted To Avoid,' India-Based Journalist Says", "question_index": 4, "text": "Oh, because people can't go to doctors or hospitals. The hospitals are turning people away. So you can't rely on them for an accurate count.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it was really disturbing. So this was a few weeks ago when the cases were surging in Delhi, and the number of people dying around the city was the highest it's ever been. We don't even know the "}
{"id": "998551050", "date": "2021-05-20", "guest": "Jeffrey Gettleman", "title": "COVID Is The 'Nightmare We Really Wanted To Avoid,' India-Based Journalist Says", "question_index": 5, "text": "Recently, bodies were washed up on the banks of the Ganges River. Is the speculation that they died of COVID, but there were no crematories that had room to deal with these bodies?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We've gotten information about certain areas in the country. We spent a lot of time researching this where we would look at the official numbers from a city or a district and then compare them with in"}
{"id": "998551050", "date": "2021-05-20", "guest": "Jeffrey Gettleman", "title": "COVID Is The 'Nightmare We Really Wanted To Avoid,' India-Based Journalist Says", "question_index": 6, "text": "We need to take a short break here. I hate to interrupt, but let's do that, and then we'll pick up where we left off. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jeffrey Gettleman. He's The New York Times South Asia bureau chief. He's based in New Delhi where he's speaking to us from. We'll be right back after this break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So last week, we had this horrible, gruesome thing happen where this village woke up in the morning and there were all these bodies, dozens of corpses, along the banks of a river. And nobody in this t"}
{"id": "998551050", "date": "2021-05-20", "guest": "Jeffrey Gettleman", "title": "COVID Is The 'Nightmare We Really Wanted To Avoid,' India-Based Journalist Says", "question_index": 7, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Jeffrey Gettleman, who's in New Delhi. India is experiencing the world's worst coronavirus. Gettleman says sickness and death are everywhere. He's The New York Times South Asia bureau chief. Before that, he was the Times East Africa bureau chief based in Kenya. What's the situation like in hospitals and outside of hospitals? 'Cause it sounds like thousands of people have been turned away from hospitals 'cause the hospitals have been filled. They don't have medical supplies. I mean, you even described like a - mini riots breaking out in hospitals.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So last week, we had this horrible, gruesome thing happen where this village woke up in the morning and there were all these bodies, dozens of corpses, along the banks of a river. And nobody in this t"}
{"id": "998551050", "date": "2021-05-20", "guest": "Jeffrey Gettleman", "title": "COVID Is The 'Nightmare We Really Wanted To Avoid,' India-Based Journalist Says", "question_index": 8, "text": "This has been a kind of perverse growth opportunity for the black market. What's happening on the black market?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's been been very chaotic at hospitals across India. So at first when this surge hit New Delhi, which is the capital of India, a city of 20 million people, with some very good hospitals. This is hom"}
{"id": "998551050", "date": "2021-05-20", "guest": "Jeffrey Gettleman", "title": "COVID Is The 'Nightmare We Really Wanted To Avoid,' India-Based Journalist Says", "question_index": 9, "text": "I think you maybe just answered a question I was about to ask you. But let's see", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So we're seeing people take advantage of this. It's like war profiteering. I've worked in Iraq and Afghanistan and other conflict zones around the world, and I've seen this happen, where there's like "}
{"id": "998551050", "date": "2021-05-20", "guest": "Jeffrey Gettleman", "title": "COVID Is The 'Nightmare We Really Wanted To Avoid,' India-Based Journalist Says", "question_index": 10, "text": ". I was going to ask you if you think the social fabric is fraying in India. It sounds like it's not.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So we're seeing people take advantage of this. It's like war profiteering. I've worked in Iraq and Afghanistan and other conflict zones around the world, and I've seen this happen, where there's like "}
{"id": "998551050", "date": "2021-05-20", "guest": "Jeffrey Gettleman", "title": "COVID Is The 'Nightmare We Really Wanted To Avoid,' India-Based Journalist Says", "question_index": 11, "text": "You know, as you say that, I think about what's happening here with people being told by the CDC, if you're vaccinated, you don't need a mask. And things are - you know, stadiums are opening up, restaurants. And the difference is, I mean, so many Americans have been vaccinated. In India, the vaccination rate is very low. And also, the people who have been vaccinated have mostly gotten, I think, the AstraZeneca vaccine, which isn't nearly as efficacious as the Moderna and Pfizer or even, I think, the Johnson & Johnson.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We're seeing both. We're seeing some people do some really bad things to each other. We're seeing hospitals turning people away and this - sometimes, this kind of coldness, this numbness, to people in"}
{"id": "998551050", "date": "2021-05-20", "guest": "Jeffrey Gettleman", "title": "COVID Is The 'Nightmare We Really Wanted To Avoid,' India-Based Journalist Says", "question_index": 12, "text": "We need to take another break here, Jeffrey. I'm sorry. So let's just take a break, and then we'll continue our conversation. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jeffrey Gettleman. He's The New York Times' South Asia bureau chief who's based in New Delhi, India, where he's speaking to us from. We'll be back after a break. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's exactly it. The biggest difference is vaccinations. So in the West and in the U.S., they have gotten this vaccine out to lots of people. Of course, there are those who don't want to take it. An"}
{"id": "998551050", "date": "2021-05-20", "guest": "Jeffrey Gettleman", "title": "COVID Is The 'Nightmare We Really Wanted To Avoid,' India-Based Journalist Says", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Jeffrey Gettleman, who's in New Delhi, India. The country is so overwhelmed by the pandemic that hospitals are turning people away. It's nearly impossible for many people to get the oxygen or medications they need. And smoke from cremations has filled the skies. Gettleman is The New York Times' South Asia bureau chief. What do we know so far about what the predominant variants are in India?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's exactly it. The biggest difference is vaccinations. So in the West and in the U.S., they have gotten this vaccine out to lots of people. Of course, there are those who don't want to take it. An"}
{"id": "998551050", "date": "2021-05-20", "guest": "Jeffrey Gettleman", "title": "COVID Is The 'Nightmare We Really Wanted To Avoid,' India-Based Journalist Says", "question_index": 14, "text": "India is one of the major manufacturers of vaccines, and the vaccine that they've been manufacturing is AstraZeneca. But a very small percentage of the population is actually vaccinated. What went wrong?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So we think there's a few variants in India. We think there's this British variant that is considered more contagious and more dangerous, and that there's also this other variant that they're referrin"}
{"id": "998551050", "date": "2021-05-20", "guest": "Jeffrey Gettleman", "title": "COVID Is The 'Nightmare We Really Wanted To Avoid,' India-Based Journalist Says", "question_index": 15, "text": "Because what happens in India with the virus is going to affect the rest of the world, especially if there are new mutations, there's a lot of concern that vaccines from other countries should be sent to India to help them get through the pandemic and to try to stop the virus there. And I know the Biden administration has committed millions of vaccines. But whatever the number is - I don't remember the exact number - I know compared to what is needed in India that it's really very small, even though it sounds like a big number. What are other countries doing to try to help the situation in India, and if not for the sake of Indians, for their own sake?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So that's a really good question. I did a story last year from the Serum Institute of India, which is a fascinating company. It is the world's largest manufacturer of vaccines. They make more vaccines"}
{"id": "998551050", "date": "2021-05-20", "guest": "Jeffrey Gettleman", "title": "COVID Is The 'Nightmare We Really Wanted To Avoid,' India-Based Journalist Says", "question_index": 16, "text": "And as you say in India, for people who are poor, they are especially crowded together and are probably therefore especially vulnerable to the spread of the virus.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. That's a really good point. When things got really bad here a couple weeks ago, there was this sudden mobilization around the world to help India. The U.S. began sending in ventilators, medic"}
{"id": "998551050", "date": "2021-05-20", "guest": "Jeffrey Gettleman", "title": "COVID Is The 'Nightmare We Really Wanted To Avoid,' India-Based Journalist Says", "question_index": 17, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jeffrey Gettleman, The New York Times South Asia bureau chief who's based in New Delhi, India, where he's speaking to us from. We'll be right back after this break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The health care for poor people in this country is really bad. I was in some hospitals before the pandemic, and I was stunned by how many people were crowded in the hallways, how few resources there w"}
{"id": "998551050", "date": "2021-05-20", "guest": "Jeffrey Gettleman", "title": "COVID Is The 'Nightmare We Really Wanted To Avoid,' India-Based Journalist Says", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Jeffrey Gettleman, who's in New Delhi. India is experiencing the world's worst coronavirus. Gettleman says sickness and death are everywhere. He's The New York Times South Asia bureau chief. Before that, he was the Times East Africa bureau chief based in Kenya. Jeffrey, we were talking about vaccinations and how India doesn't have nearly enough vaccinations, and a very small percentage of people in India have been vaccinated. India had been exporting vaccines to other countries after the first wave died down and Prime Minister Modi basically declared victory over the virus. Are people thinking there was an alternate way of dealing with that, that so much shouldn't have been exported?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The health care for poor people in this country is really bad. I was in some hospitals before the pandemic, and I was stunned by how many people were crowded in the hallways, how few resources there w"}
{"id": "998551050", "date": "2021-05-20", "guest": "Jeffrey Gettleman", "title": "COVID Is The 'Nightmare We Really Wanted To Avoid,' India-Based Journalist Says", "question_index": 19, "text": "You know, having huge maskless rallies, political rallies, reminds me of when Donald Trump was president. And I know Trump and Indian Prime Minister Modi were allies. Are there other parallels between how they each handled the spread of coronavirus?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Definitely, Terry. The anti-government sentiments are growing by the day. A lot of people are really frustrated. They think the government dropped the ball. They think the government sent the wrong si"}
{"id": "998551050", "date": "2021-05-20", "guest": "Jeffrey Gettleman", "title": "COVID Is The 'Nightmare We Really Wanted To Avoid,' India-Based Journalist Says", "question_index": 20, "text": "Prime Minister Modi has blamed this resurgence of the virus on Muslims. And I kind of hesitate to even ask you how he did that because I don't want to spread, like, really false, pernicious conspiracy theories or whatever his theories are. But how did he manage to scapegoat Muslims?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a good question. There have been a lot of parallels drawn between Modi and Trump. They're both very strong nationalistic leaders that are really good at stirring people up and dividing people. Mo"}
{"id": "998551050", "date": "2021-05-20", "guest": "Jeffrey Gettleman", "title": "COVID Is The 'Nightmare We Really Wanted To Avoid,' India-Based Journalist Says", "question_index": 21, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jeffrey Gettleman, The New York Times South Asia bureau chief who's based in New Delhi, India, where he's speaking to us from. We'll be back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So this happened last year, and it wasn't so much Modi himself but people in his party. And his party is a close-knit organization. So his party made a huge deal out of this Muslim seminary where ther"}
{"id": "998551050", "date": "2021-05-20", "guest": "Jeffrey Gettleman", "title": "COVID Is The 'Nightmare We Really Wanted To Avoid,' India-Based Journalist Says", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Jeffrey Gettleman, who is speaking to us from New Delhi. India is experiencing the world's worst coronavirus crisis. Gettleman says sickness and death are everywhere. He's The New York Times South Asia bureau chief. And before that, he was the Times East Africa bureau chief based in Kenya. You've reported from war zones before. You've been kidnapped in Iraq. When you were in the war zones and when you were kidnapped, did you have family with you? Did you have children yet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "MAKE THEMSELVES HEARD - FROM CHILDHOOD\")"}
{"id": "998551050", "date": "2021-05-20", "guest": "Jeffrey Gettleman", "title": "COVID Is The 'Nightmare We Really Wanted To Avoid,' India-Based Journalist Says", "question_index": 23, "text": "Is the family all in agreement not to leave, not to go back to the states?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. And that's, like, the biggest difference. It's that I've taken risks on my own. I've had some very close calls. I believe strongly in the work we do. And I've been willing to put my life on the li"}
{"id": "998551050", "date": "2021-05-20", "guest": "Jeffrey Gettleman", "title": "COVID Is The 'Nightmare We Really Wanted To Avoid,' India-Based Journalist Says", "question_index": 24, "text": "If you decided to go back to the U.S., would you be able to? Would you have access to flying out, to a plane?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, we went - we all went back and forth on this. It was a very hard decision to make. We felt really uneasy a couple weeks ago when friends of ours were getting sick and couldn't find a place to get "}
{"id": "998551050", "date": "2021-05-20", "guest": "Jeffrey Gettleman", "title": "COVID Is The 'Nightmare We Really Wanted To Avoid,' India-Based Journalist Says", "question_index": 25, "text": "Jeffrey Gettleman, it's really been great to talk with you. I'm sorry it's under these circumstances. And I hope that you and your family manage to stay healthy. And thank you for your reporting. On behalf of a lot of your readers, I will thank you for your reporting. And in eeking out a final, like, positive note to end on, I will say you've got some mighty good internet", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right now, there are few airlines - I think exactly two, Air India and United - who are flying direct flights back to the U.S. As an American citizen, I'm allowed to go back to the U.S., but there's m"}
{"id": "998551050", "date": "2021-05-20", "guest": "Jeffrey Gettleman", "title": "COVID Is The 'Nightmare We Really Wanted To Avoid,' India-Based Journalist Says", "question_index": 26, "text": ". Our connection has been really good, better than the connection that we have with a lot of our guests in the U.S. Is that typical in India, strong internet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right now, there are few airlines - I think exactly two, Air India and United - who are flying direct flights back to the U.S. As an American citizen, I'm allowed to go back to the U.S., but there's m"}
{"id": "998551050", "date": "2021-05-20", "guest": "Jeffrey Gettleman", "title": "COVID Is The 'Nightmare We Really Wanted To Avoid,' India-Based Journalist Says", "question_index": 27, "text": "Well, please stay well. And thank you so much for doing this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is. We have good internet in our house. India has enormous amounts of technology. And, you know, some things here work really well. And I think that's part of the frustration of this period is like"}
{"id": "998551050", "date": "2021-05-20", "guest": "Jeffrey Gettleman", "title": "COVID Is The 'Nightmare We Really Wanted To Avoid,' India-Based Journalist Says", "question_index": 28, "text": "Jeffrey Gettleman is The New York Times' South Asia bureau chief. He spoke to us from his home in New Delhi, India.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "998551050", "date": "2021-05-20", "guest": "Jeffrey Gettleman", "title": "COVID Is The 'Nightmare We Really Wanted To Avoid,' India-Based Journalist Says", "question_index": 29, "text": "If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, like this week's interviews with Washington Post reporter Carol Leonnig about her new book investigating problems in the Secret Service, or with Seth Rogen, who has a new memoir, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with assistance today from Al Banks. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Kayla Lattimore. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Therese Madden directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "999002603", "date": "2021-05-21", "guest": "Charles Grodin", "title": "Remembering Charles Grodin, Of 'Heartbreak Kid' And 'Midnight Run' Fame", "question_index": 0, "text": "Were you good at being menacing?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry Gross spoke to Charles Grodin in 1989. She asked him about his early career, when he was often cast in TV westerns as the villain."}
{"id": "999002603", "date": "2021-05-21", "guest": "Charles Grodin", "title": "Remembering Charles Grodin, Of 'Heartbreak Kid' And 'Midnight Run' Fame", "question_index": 1, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, after - this was in 1966, '67. By that time, I had so much rejection in show business, I was very good at being menacing."}
{"id": "999002603", "date": "2021-05-21", "guest": "Charles Grodin", "title": "Remembering Charles Grodin, Of 'Heartbreak Kid' And 'Midnight Run' Fame", "question_index": 2, "text": "Have you ever heard - overheard conversations about your looks in terms of whether you would have made it as a good leading man?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And the one thing that all the young actors could do was play rage and menace because that's what they felt. We were so shut out all the time that you - and you could only say when they didn't want yo"}
{"id": "999002603", "date": "2021-05-21", "guest": "Charles Grodin", "title": "Remembering Charles Grodin, Of 'Heartbreak Kid' And 'Midnight Run' Fame", "question_index": 3, "text": "My guest is actor...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I try to get into these rooms where they're having these meetings so I can overhear what they're saying. But they usually catch me. You know, like even today, if I'm out in Hollywood, I try "}
{"id": "999002603", "date": "2021-05-21", "guest": "Charles Grodin", "title": "Remembering Charles Grodin, Of 'Heartbreak Kid' And 'Midnight Run' Fame", "question_index": 4, "text": "I see your point. Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What do you mean? I go to overhear conversations about my looks - are they having them somewhere? Maybe - would you put that a different way?"}
{"id": "999002603", "date": "2021-05-21", "guest": "Charles Grodin", "title": "Remembering Charles Grodin, Of 'Heartbreak Kid' And 'Midnight Run' Fame", "question_index": 5, "text": "Well, I figure there's some things casting directors discuss in front of you and said that they don't, but things that you find out anyway - that they discuss it in front of you or not. And people have to be discussing, well, I don't know, is he handsome enough for this role?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Have you ever overheard anything about the money you have? No, I've never overheard anything about that. Have you ever overheard anything about your wife? Yes, I did overhear the other day. My w"}
{"id": "999002603", "date": "2021-05-21", "guest": "Charles Grodin", "title": "Remembering Charles Grodin, Of 'Heartbreak Kid' And 'Midnight Run' Fame", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was - yeah, they discuss everything. And, you know, one of the blessings is that you don't hear all the things that they're saying. I mean, I have an agreement with the people that represent me "}
{"id": "999002603", "date": "2021-05-21", "guest": "Charles Grodin", "title": "Remembering Charles Grodin, Of 'Heartbreak Kid' And 'Midnight Run' Fame", "question_index": 7, "text": "Oh yeah, right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, really? Yeah. I kind of assumed it when I saw the movie because we hadn't heard anything about it. Yeah, well they definitely didn't want you. They didn't want you for the Nicholson part in that e"}
{"id": "999002603", "date": "2021-05-21", "guest": "Charles Grodin", "title": "Remembering Charles Grodin, Of 'Heartbreak Kid' And 'Midnight Run' Fame", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, how did you get from being like the bad guy and auditioning for action series to specializing in comedy, which it seems is what you've done over the past few years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "'Cause I'm afraid of what I might think about."}
{"id": "999002603", "date": "2021-05-21", "guest": "Charles Grodin", "title": "Remembering Charles Grodin, Of 'Heartbreak Kid' And 'Midnight Run' Fame", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well, explain what it is that you feel like you do different from, for instance, the acting in a sitcom.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was really trained as a serious actor. And Elaine May, really with \"The Heartbreak Kid,\" knew me socially and just was intending to star me in whatever movie she was going to direct. She just "}
{"id": "999002603", "date": "2021-05-21", "guest": "Charles Grodin", "title": "Remembering Charles Grodin, Of 'Heartbreak Kid' And 'Midnight Run' Fame", "question_index": 10, "text": "So you're trained in the method. You studied with Uta Hagen and with Lee Strasberg. Do you feel like you use the method in doing comedy roles?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, a sitcom is based a lot on rhythm. There's a setup, and there's a punchline, a setup and a punchline. And I don't really do that. I just basically try to be alive in a situation. And I'm not rea"}
{"id": "999002603", "date": "2021-05-21", "guest": "Charles Grodin", "title": "Remembering Charles Grodin, Of 'Heartbreak Kid' And 'Midnight Run' Fame", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, to the extent of basically what it is, is that I function as an actor the way I'm functioning right now. I'm listening to what you're saying, and I'm responding personally to you. That's basical"}
{"id": "999002603", "date": "2021-05-21", "guest": "Charles Grodin", "title": "Remembering Charles Grodin, Of 'Heartbreak Kid' And 'Midnight Run' Fame", "question_index": 12, "text": "When you were making \"Midnight Run\" with Robert De Niro, can you compare how you each prepared for your roles?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's the difference. And then the skill is to be able to take the lines of the script and make it your own and make it come out of you naturally. But it's - yeah, so you do apply it all the time."}
{"id": "999002603", "date": "2021-05-21", "guest": "Charles Grodin", "title": "Remembering Charles Grodin, Of 'Heartbreak Kid' And 'Midnight Run' Fame", "question_index": 13, "text": "So what kinds of differences does that make for when you're actually doing a scene together?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in terms of the background of the part, Bob does a lot. He will like to live the life of the character. He actually went on drug bust with a bulletproof vest because his character did this kind "}
{"id": "999002603", "date": "2021-05-21", "guest": "Charles Grodin", "title": "Remembering Charles Grodin, Of 'Heartbreak Kid' And 'Midnight Run' Fame", "question_index": 14, "text": "You played the gynecologist, the first gynecologist, in \"Rosemary's Baby,\" which was directed by Roman Polanski. And you tell a really funny and also very interesting story in your book about a pause that you wanted to put in a line. Would you tell that story and explain the significance of the pause to you?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry Gross spoke to Charles Grodin in 1989."}
{"id": "999002603", "date": "2021-05-21", "guest": "Charles Grodin", "title": "Remembering Charles Grodin, Of 'Heartbreak Kid' And 'Midnight Run' Fame", "question_index": 15, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Mia Farrow comes to me for help and says that she feels that these witches and demons, whatever it is, are pursuing her. And at the end of this long tale, which sounds insane to me as a doctor, I"}
{"id": "999002603", "date": "2021-05-21", "guest": "Charles Grodin", "title": "Remembering Charles Grodin, Of 'Heartbreak Kid' And 'Midnight Run' Fame", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, this must be a constant source of anguish for an actor deciding whether you should go with your own intuition on how to play something or go with the director's advice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's what I wanted to do in the scene. And he looked at me and he - you could see he was trying to figure out whether he hated my guts or admired me. And he decided he admired me. And he threw his a"}
{"id": "999002603", "date": "2021-05-21", "guest": "Charles Grodin", "title": "Remembering Charles Grodin, Of 'Heartbreak Kid' And 'Midnight Run' Fame", "question_index": 17, "text": "There have been times when you were unable to stop yourself from laughing. You tell the story in your book of when you were playing with Ted Knight, who played Ted Baxter, the newsman, on \"The Mary Tyler Moore Show\"...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It doesn't really come up for me. What I - my relationship with directors that I work with - and it's been true for several years - is I like them to see what I'd like to do. If they don't like it, th"}
{"id": "999002603", "date": "2021-05-21", "guest": "Charles Grodin", "title": "Remembering Charles Grodin, Of 'Heartbreak Kid' And 'Midnight Run' Fame", "question_index": 18, "text": "...In a soap opera, an afternoon soap opera. And you had a lot of scenes together. And every time you'd be on the set together, you just break up. Was that because of the knowledge of the absurdity of the whole program that you were doing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "999002603", "date": "2021-05-21", "guest": "Charles Grodin", "title": "Remembering Charles Grodin, Of 'Heartbreak Kid' And 'Midnight Run' Fame", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I couldn't get through that scene because I was so - I fought for our country for three years, not overseas, unfortunately, because I - and I couldn't get through it. And even now, if you look at "}
{"id": "999002603", "date": "2021-05-21", "guest": "Charles Grodin", "title": "Remembering Charles Grodin, Of 'Heartbreak Kid' And 'Midnight Run' Fame", "question_index": 20, "text": "You say that sometimes you tell a joke with such a straight face that people take you seriously. Has that gotten you into any trouble recently?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Lenny Cantrow) Look, Mr. Corcoran, I didn't come out here to negotiate for Kelly. I came out here to fight for her. I spent three years in the United States Army. I fought every damn minute of tho"}
{"id": "999002603", "date": "2021-05-21", "guest": "Charles Grodin", "title": "Remembering Charles Grodin, Of 'Heartbreak Kid' And 'Midnight Run' Fame", "question_index": 21, "text": "Charles Grodin, thanks so much...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's always gotten me into trouble. It's something I've tried to rectify. I don't know. I mean, I make an assumption about things sometimes, that what I'm saying is so absurd, it couldn't poss"}
{"id": "999002603", "date": "2021-05-21", "guest": "Charles Grodin", "title": "Remembering Charles Grodin, Of 'Heartbreak Kid' And 'Midnight Run' Fame", "question_index": 22, "text": "...For talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks, Terry."}
{"id": "999009159", "date": "2021-05-21", "guest": "Bob Koester", "title": "Remembering Record Store Owner Bob Koester", "question_index": 0, "text": "Why was Big Joe Williams willing to record for you, Bob Koester, who at the time was a very young, inexperienced producer with very little track record?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Back in 1952, driven by his passion for jazz and blues and in need of a place to park his collection of 2,000 albums, 17-year-old Bob Koester opened the Jazz Record Mart in St. Louis. A year later, he"}
{"id": "999009159", "date": "2021-05-21", "guest": "Bob Koester", "title": "Remembering Record Store Owner Bob Koester", "question_index": 1, "text": "Was this his first LP?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, whether he was on Delmark or BJ or Trumpet, he was getting union scale. And the sad fact was his records weren't selling very well. I think he was intrigued with the idea of being on an LP."}
{"id": "999009159", "date": "2021-05-21", "guest": "Bob Koester", "title": "Remembering Record Store Owner Bob Koester", "question_index": 2, "text": "He'd made 78s some 45s years before that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "999009159", "date": "2021-05-21", "guest": "Bob Koester", "title": "Remembering Record Store Owner Bob Koester", "question_index": 3, "text": "This is a great track. Why don't we hear this 1958 recording featuring Big Joe Williams doing \"Midnight Creep\"? Now, this is actually a previously unreleased. I think it was recorded for that first LP that you were referring to, but it wasn't released as part of it. Why not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It came close to being the first LP of Mississippi country blues."}
{"id": "999009159", "date": "2021-05-21", "guest": "Bob Koester", "title": "Remembering Record Store Owner Bob Koester", "question_index": 4, "text": "OK. Well, here it is from 1958, Big Joe Williams, \"Midnight Creep.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We just never had the money. Joe was just a fountain. It's just like turning on a water tap. The music would come pouring out. And he would record an enormous amount of material at every session. And "}
{"id": "999009159", "date": "2021-05-21", "guest": "Bob Koester", "title": "Remembering Record Store Owner Bob Koester", "question_index": 5, "text": "That's Big Joe Williams recorded in 1958. That track is featured on the new Delmark Records 50th anniversary anthology. You know, if that - if the guitar playing sounded a little unusual on that, it's because - it's - one reason is because Joe - Big Joe Williams played a nine-string guitar. Tell us a little bit about that guitar.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Lord, (unintelligible). Said she left this morning. (Unintelligible) did nothing wrong. Well, her feet like walking, baby talking all night. Well, her feet like walking, baby talking all night. Well, "}
{"id": "999009159", "date": "2021-05-21", "guest": "Bob Koester", "title": "Remembering Record Store Owner Bob Koester", "question_index": 6, "text": "It sounds like a pretty weird reason to start playing a nine-string guitar.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Joe got tired of people borrowing his guitar or just picking it up between sets and playing it. So he rigged up the nine string. It was, I think, to some extent, a gimmick. And he apparently had"}
{"id": "999009159", "date": "2021-05-21", "guest": "Bob Koester", "title": "Remembering Record Store Owner Bob Koester", "question_index": 7, "text": "Some - you know, some of the people who've worked in your record store have gone on to be, you know, record producers or recording artists. One of the people who worked in your record store, Bruce Iglauer, who founded Alligator Records, which is a blues label in Chicago - and in an article about you, he was quoted as saying - saying about you - \"he's terribly argumentative. He hardly says anything nice about anybody. But he's just as generous as hell. He almost fired me a couple of times, mostly for good reasons. And at the same time, he was extraordinarily nice to me. It's hard to explain. Bob will snarl at people. He used to break 78s over his employees' heads.\" So I want to hear about you breaking 78s over your employees' heads.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, those guitars were usually his most valuable possession, and he didn't want people messing with it."}
{"id": "999009159", "date": "2021-05-21", "guest": "Bob Koester", "title": "Remembering Record Store Owner Bob Koester", "question_index": 8, "text": "Did you ever break a 78 over somebody's head and realize years later that it was actually a decent 78 and was worth a lot of money?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, well, we always have 78s sort of worthless. And 78s break pretty good, pretty well. I always made sure they weren't Columbia's 'cause Columbia's had paper lamination. It would have made them a dea"}
{"id": "999009159", "date": "2021-05-21", "guest": "Bob Koester", "title": "Remembering Record Store Owner Bob Koester", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I always made sure it was something by Perry Como."}
{"id": "999009159", "date": "2021-05-21", "guest": "Bob Koester", "title": "Remembering Record Store Owner Bob Koester", "question_index": 10, "text": "What did you grow up listening to, and how were you exposed to it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Perry Como was on Victor. They're the most brittle, breakable records ever made in that period."}
{"id": "999009159", "date": "2021-05-21", "guest": "Bob Koester", "title": "Remembering Record Store Owner Bob Koester", "question_index": 11, "text": "Did music keep you company when you were stuck at home with polio?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I - my grandfather had a collection of classical 78s. He died when I was very young. But when we moved into his house, the records were still there. And that was one by the original Dixieland ja"}
{"id": "999009159", "date": "2021-05-21", "guest": "Bob Koester", "title": "Remembering Record Store Owner Bob Koester", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, we should end with a jazz recording. I should ask you if you have a favorite from the 50th anniversary collection that you'd like to play.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I wasn't - by the time it - I kept looking for good jazz when I was in the hospital. When I got home, I didn't want to be around the house. I wanted to get the heck out and around. And I was enc"}
{"id": "999009159", "date": "2021-05-21", "guest": "Bob Koester", "title": "Remembering Record Store Owner Bob Koester", "question_index": 13, "text": "And AACM is the - what's the acronym?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The stuff I'm most proud of is that Roscoe Mitchell and the other AACM records, a part of the catalog that I think is our most important contribution to jazz. We did the first AACM record, the first R"}
{"id": "999009159", "date": "2021-05-21", "guest": "Bob Koester", "title": "Remembering Record Store Owner Bob Koester", "question_index": 14, "text": "And it was the genesis of the Art Ensemble of Chicago.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, the Association for the Advancement of Creative Musicians. This was a group of self-determinist avant-garde musicians in Chicago in the - started in the early '60s and gave birth to all these guys"}
{"id": "999009159", "date": "2021-05-21", "guest": "Bob Koester", "title": "Remembering Record Store Owner Bob Koester", "question_index": 15, "text": "So you think...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, yeah. I think that was the most important music happening anywhere in the world at that time. I mean, it had its counterparts in Kansas City, St. Louis and New York, Boston, Philly and so forth"}
{"id": "999009159", "date": "2021-05-21", "guest": "Bob Koester", "title": "Remembering Record Store Owner Bob Koester", "question_index": 16, "text": "So you're proudest of giving some of the Chicago avant-gardists their start, but your heart is really with Art Hodes, the stride piano player", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm very, very proud of our six sessions with - six albums with Art Hodes. He's the only really great musician from the '20s that we took in the studio. We got a lot of good Earl Hines down (ph)."}
{"id": "999009159", "date": "2021-05-21", "guest": "Bob Koester", "title": "Remembering Record Store Owner Bob Koester", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm very, very proud of our six sessions with - six albums with Art Hodes. He's the only really great musician from the '20s that we took in the studio. We got a lot of good Earl Hines down (ph)."}
{"id": "1000131568", "date": "2021-05-25", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' Historian Examines The 'Hope' And 'Hostility' Toward Emancipation", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. June 19 will mark the 156th anniversary of Juneteenth, commemorating the day slavery was ended in Texas in 1865. Juneteenth is now a state holiday in Texas and seems to be on the way to becoming a national holiday. It's a holiday in conversation with July Fourth, which celebrates America gaining its independence, but enslaved people remained in bondage. My guest, Annette Gordon-Reed, is a Pulitzer Prize-winning historian and Harvard professor who has written a new book called \"On Juneteenth.\" It's part history, part memoir. She's from East Texas. She's a historian of slavery and the early American republic. Her other books include \"Thomas Jefferson And Sally Hemings: An American Controversy\" and \"The Hemingses Of Monticello: An American Family.\" She edited the book \"Race On Trial: Law And Justice In American History.\" Annette Gordon-Reed, welcome to FRESH AIR. I learned a lot that I'm really happy I learned from your new book. So let me ask you to give a fuller version of what Juneteenth represents.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1000131568", "date": "2021-05-25", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' Historian Examines The 'Hope' And 'Hostility' Toward Emancipation", "question_index": 1, "text": "So how does June 19, 1865, fit in to the end of slavery, the abolition of slavery in the U.S.?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Juneteenth represents the end of slavery - technically the end of slavery in Texas in 1865. And it has been a day to commemorate what we know - and we know from the way they acted - the joy of p"}
{"id": "1000131568", "date": "2021-05-25", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' Historian Examines The 'Hope' And 'Hostility' Toward Emancipation", "question_index": 2, "text": "So we'll get a little deeper into the history later in the interview. But first, I want to talk with you a little bit about how the holiday has been celebrated in your family. How was it celebrated when you were growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was - emancipation was a process. There was not any one day that made everything OK, made it all over until we get to the ratification of the 13th Amendment, which was in December of 1865. Bu"}
{"id": "1000131568", "date": "2021-05-25", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' Historian Examines The 'Hope' And 'Hostility' Toward Emancipation", "question_index": 3, "text": "When you were growing up and your family celebrated Juneteenth, did they also talk with you about the meaning of Juneteenth?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was sort of a precursor to July Fourth. It was a day of barbecuing. It was a day for us kids to run around and drink a lot of what we call soda water, which means soda pop, I guess, in the No"}
{"id": "1000131568", "date": "2021-05-25", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' Historian Examines The 'Hope' And 'Hostility' Toward Emancipation", "question_index": 4, "text": "Do you see Juneteenth as being in conversation with July Fourth?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, sometimes they did, and I asked about it. My great-grandmother was alive until I was about 11 years old. And I wish I talked to her more about these things, but she talked about what it meant to "}
{"id": "1000131568", "date": "2021-05-25", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' Historian Examines The 'Hope' And 'Hostility' Toward Emancipation", "question_index": 5, "text": "Let's get into some of the history. Texas didn't surrender in the Civil War until two years after the Emancipation Proclamation. Why did Texas continue to fight even after Robert E. Lee surrendered?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. It reminds people that the sort of vaulting and high ideals of the Declaration of Independence about equality, the equality of mankind were not in operation and that it too"}
{"id": "1000131568", "date": "2021-05-25", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' Historian Examines The 'Hope' And 'Hostility' Toward Emancipation", "question_index": 6, "text": "So a U.S. Army general, Gordon Granger, was given the job of getting Texas to announce that slaved - enslaved people were now free - and not only to announce it, but to actually enact it. So Granger prepared what was called General Order No. 3, ending legalized slavery in Texas. Would you describe what's in General Order No. 3?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess you could put it to stubbornness. I talk a little bit in the book about Texas' unique situation. It had been a republic, its own republic, for almost a decade and thought of itself as special."}
{"id": "1000131568", "date": "2021-05-25", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' Historian Examines The 'Hope' And 'Hostility' Toward Emancipation", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yeah, I want to quote from it 'cause it declares \"absolute equality of personal rights and rights of property between former masters and slaves.\" That upset a lot of white people. There was a wave of white violence afterwards. What was that wave of violence like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's not a very long document. It just announces the end of slavery. And he does something that is quite extraordinary. He also suggests that now, after the end of slavery, the people who had be"}
{"id": "1000131568", "date": "2021-05-25", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' Historian Examines The 'Hope' And 'Hostility' Toward Emancipation", "question_index": 8, "text": "You know, you point out that in pop culture, the images of Texas are all about, like, cowboys and ranchers and farmers and oilmen. But Texas was - at least part of Texas was all about plantations and enslaved people. And I didn't realize how much of Texas' deep history was about making sure that slavery could be legal. So let's go back to a very early chapter in Texas when Stephen Austin, who was born in Virginia and raised in Missouri, came to Texas when it was a province of Mexico. What did he want to do in Texas? Why did he come to Texas?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there are stories about people who celebrated, were celebrating what they called the Jubilee or Emancipation Day before it was - it became Juneteenth, and they were whipped. They were whipped fo"}
{"id": "1000131568", "date": "2021-05-25", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' Historian Examines The 'Hope' And 'Hostility' Toward Emancipation", "question_index": 9, "text": "So at the time Stephen Austin - and Austin, Texas, is named after him. So at the time he comes to Texas, Texas is a province of Mexico.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it started out with his father, Moses, who passed away, and he sort of took up the mantle of his father. They wanted to bring settlers, Anglo settlers, into Texas to extend the cotton empire tha"}
{"id": "1000131568", "date": "2021-05-25", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' Historian Examines The 'Hope' And 'Hostility' Toward Emancipation", "question_index": 10, "text": "So what does that mean? What was the relationship of Texas and Mexico?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is a province of Mexico."}
{"id": "1000131568", "date": "2021-05-25", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' Historian Examines The 'Hope' And 'Hostility' Toward Emancipation", "question_index": 11, "text": "So when Mexico starts to turn against slavery, that's when the leaders of Texas decided, we should become independent to preserve slavery.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's like a state of - like we have states today. It was a state in Mexico. There was Mexican government control. Mexican law was paramount. And they wanted Anglo settlers to sort of balance out"}
{"id": "1000131568", "date": "2021-05-25", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' Historian Examines The 'Hope' And 'Hostility' Toward Emancipation", "question_index": 12, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Pulitzer Prize-winning historian Annette Gordon-Reed. Her new book is called \"On Juneteenth.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that was one of the things - preserving slavery, but also concerns about the constitution, changing other aspects of the constitution. These were two different cultures, different languages, you "}
{"id": "1000131568", "date": "2021-05-25", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' Historian Examines The 'Hope' And 'Hostility' Toward Emancipation", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Pulitzer Prize-winning historian and Harvard professor Annette Gordon-Reed. Her new book is called \"On Juneteenth.\" It's part memoir, part history not only of Juneteenth, which marks the day enslaved people in Texas were freed June 19, 1865. The book is also about how central slavery is to the history of Texas. Your family has deep roots in Texas. Your father's side of the family came to Texas sometime in the 1860s. Do you know whether that was before or after the Civil War?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that was one of the things - preserving slavery, but also concerns about the constitution, changing other aspects of the constitution. These were two different cultures, different languages, you "}
{"id": "1000131568", "date": "2021-05-25", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' Historian Examines The 'Hope' And 'Hostility' Toward Emancipation", "question_index": 14, "text": "Did they come as enslaved people or did they come...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't."}
{"id": "1000131568", "date": "2021-05-25", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' Historian Examines The 'Hope' And 'Hostility' Toward Emancipation", "question_index": 15, "text": "Did they pass any stories - pass on any stories about the wave of violence after Texas was forced to free enslaved people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think they came as enslaved people. They came - my father's family came as enslaved people. On my mother's side, I can go back to the 1820s, and those were certainly enslaved people who were brought"}
{"id": "1000131568", "date": "2021-05-25", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' Historian Examines The 'Hope' And 'Hostility' Toward Emancipation", "question_index": 16, "text": "What's one of the stories they told you about people they knew who were attacked by whites in the 20th century? And what impact did it have on you to hear these horrifying stories?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, they did not. My - the stories that I heard were more about the 20th century examples of violence, things that had happened specifically to people they knew or in their specific area. There was no"}
{"id": "1000131568", "date": "2021-05-25", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' Historian Examines The 'Hope' And 'Hostility' Toward Emancipation", "question_index": 17, "text": "But you grew up in Conroe, so I guess some of your family came back.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they told a story about - well, a couple of stories, one about a man who was burned at the stake on the courthouse square in Conroe, Texas, in the 1920s, the story of Bob White - this was in the"}
{"id": "1000131568", "date": "2021-05-25", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' Historian Examines The 'Hope' And 'Hostility' Toward Emancipation", "question_index": 18, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Pulitzer Prize winning historian and Harvard professor Annette Gordon-Reed. Her new book is called \"On Juneteenth.\" I'm going to take a short break here, and then we'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "because they were frightened of being in Conroe with its terrible reputation. But we moved there when I was an infant. I was born in Livingston, which is even deeper into East Texas and a little bit n"}
{"id": "1000131568", "date": "2021-05-25", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' Historian Examines The 'Hope' And 'Hostility' Toward Emancipation", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Pulitzer Prize-winning historian and Harvard professor Annette Gordon-Reed. Her new book is called \"On Juneteenth.\" It's part-memoir, part-history not only of Juneteenth, which marks the day the enslaved people in Texas were freed - June 19, 1865. The book is also about how central slavery is to the history of Texas. She's a historian of slavery and the early American republic. So you grew up in the 1960s. So you were going to school after the 1954 Supreme Court decision Brown v. the Board of Ed, which said that, you know, schools had to be equal, and therefore segregation of schools had to end. But Texas found a way to get around Brown v. the Board of Ed with something called the freedom of choice plan. What was that plan? - 'cause that plan was in effect when you started to go to school.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "because they were frightened of being in Conroe with its terrible reputation. But we moved there when I was an infant. I was born in Livingston, which is even deeper into East Texas and a little bit n"}
{"id": "1000131568", "date": "2021-05-25", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' Historian Examines The 'Hope' And 'Hostility' Toward Emancipation", "question_index": 20, "text": "So they did this to make sure that, when the Supreme Court struck down the freedom of choice plan, that you would be in a good school.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the freedom of choice plan, which other states adopted as well, was a way around Brown because what they said was white parents are now free to choose the schools that they want to send their kids "}
{"id": "1000131568", "date": "2021-05-25", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' Historian Examines The 'Hope' And 'Hostility' Toward Emancipation", "question_index": 21, "text": "Why did your parents sour on integration?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That I would be in place, I would not have to move anywhere. Now, this is an explanation that came afterwards. I think my parents - I know my parents somewhat soured on integration. And so their reaso"}
{"id": "1000131568", "date": "2021-05-25", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' Historian Examines The 'Hope' And 'Hostility' Toward Emancipation", "question_index": 22, "text": "When you say taken out of the classroom, do you mean they were fired?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because I think they thought it was a one-way street, that - one of the things that happens that we don't talk about as much is that schools - when schools were integrated in many communities, Black t"}
{"id": "1000131568", "date": "2021-05-25", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' Historian Examines The 'Hope' And 'Hostility' Toward Emancipation", "question_index": 23, "text": "You describe how you felt as a 6-year-old when you became this figure of controversy in your neighborhood because your parents were sending you to the white school. And a lot of people saw that as, like, a vote of no confidence in Booker T. and the Black school in the community. And what was it like for you to be controversial in both places? You were controversial in the white school because you were the only Black student. You were controversial in your own neighborhood because you were being sent by your parents to a white school even though your mother was a teacher in the Black school.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yes, or moved into non-teaching positions, to administrative positions, things like that, to the library or whatever - things where they were not in the classroom teaching. So Black students did"}
{"id": "1000131568", "date": "2021-05-25", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' Historian Examines The 'Hope' And 'Hostility' Toward Emancipation", "question_index": 24, "text": "How did the end of the Freedom of Choice Plan and the beginning of the integration of schools in your community affect your actual schooling and who you went to school with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was weird because there were people who knew me, and I didn't know them. And there were people who were either positive - because, you know, I'm not saying all Black people felt this way. The"}
{"id": "1000131568", "date": "2021-05-25", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' Historian Examines The 'Hope' And 'Hostility' Toward Emancipation", "question_index": 25, "text": "What was it like to be singled out as exceptional, which separated you from other Black students?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, as I got to be older, I ran into something called tracking. I was a good student, and I was tracked into what we called accelerated classes. And I was pretty much separated from Black students f"}
{"id": "1000131568", "date": "2021-05-25", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' Historian Examines The 'Hope' And 'Hostility' Toward Emancipation", "question_index": 26, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Pulitzer Prize-winning historian and Harvard professor Annette Gordon-Reed. Her new book is called \"On Juneteenth.\" We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was tough. You know, it was tough. The one saving grace is that I lived in a Black community and I had Black friends in that community, even though we didn't - when we went to school, we weren't in"}
{"id": "1000131568", "date": "2021-05-25", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' Historian Examines The 'Hope' And 'Hostility' Toward Emancipation", "question_index": 27, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Pulitzer Prize-winning historian and Harvard professor Annette Gordon-Reed. Her new book is called \"On Juneteenth.\" It's part memoir, part history. And the history is not only of Juneteenth, which marks the day enslaved people in Texas were freed, June 19, 1865, the book is also about how central slavery is to the history of Texas. You've written a couple of books related to the relationship between Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings, who was enslaved to Jefferson but was also his mistress. Can we call her that? I like - how would you describe the relationship? You've done so much research into this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was tough. You know, it was tough. The one saving grace is that I lived in a Black community and I had Black friends in that community, even though we didn't - when we went to school, we weren't in"}
{"id": "1000131568", "date": "2021-05-25", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' Historian Examines The 'Hope' And 'Hostility' Toward Emancipation", "question_index": 28, "text": "So it sounds like you're resigned to never really learning", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, people don't like the word mistress because it sounds like it's consensual and - although that's not necessarily the case if you're really looking at it. It's hard to say what it was. I mean, I "}
{"id": "1000131568", "date": "2021-05-25", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' Historian Examines The 'Hope' And 'Hostility' Toward Emancipation", "question_index": 29, "text": "what she thought of him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, people don't like the word mistress because it sounds like it's consensual and - although that's not necessarily the case if you're really looking at it. It's hard to say what it was. I mean, I "}
{"id": "1000131568", "date": "2021-05-25", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' Historian Examines The 'Hope' And 'Hostility' Toward Emancipation", "question_index": 30, "text": "Oh, and that she wanted her children to be free. This was like a bargain for them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no, yeah, because you don't - I mean, the only thing that we have that she did - well, there are two things. No. 1, she came back here with him. But that could be because, you know, her family w"}
{"id": "1000131568", "date": "2021-05-25", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' Historian Examines The 'Hope' And 'Hostility' Toward Emancipation", "question_index": 31, "text": "What do you consider some of your greatest contributions to the scholarship surrounding the relationship of Jefferson and Sally Hemings and what that relationship means, both for her and for one of the founding fathers, Thomas Jefferson?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She wanted her children to be free, exactly, bargaining for them. And, I mean, the sort of - with the hope that the guy that she would be - this man would treat her OK. And I guess it's - that's sort "}
{"id": "1000131568", "date": "2021-05-25", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' Historian Examines The 'Hope' And 'Hostility' Toward Emancipation", "question_index": 32, "text": "So I'm going to confess here, I've been a little distracted for the past few minutes because I keep thinking, why did I use the word mistress with my first question about Sally Hemings' relationship with Thomas Jefferson? I mean, she was enslaved to him. I mean, I knew they had a long-term relationship, which is why I clumsily came up with that word. But that's - it's such a wrong word when somebody is basically the property of somebody else.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think my greatest contribution is what I set out to do in the first book was to talk about the way people had written about it, the way historians had written about it, essentially saying that"}
{"id": "1000131568", "date": "2021-05-25", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' Historian Examines The 'Hope' And 'Hostility' Toward Emancipation", "question_index": 33, "text": "Did her brother stay in France or come back?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's tough because, you know, I mean, he could sell - I mean, the only thing that's interesting about it is that once Martha married Tom, she couldn't refuse him sex either. The only thing he couldn't"}
{"id": "1000131568", "date": "2021-05-25", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' Historian Examines The 'Hope' And 'Hostility' Toward Emancipation", "question_index": 34, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Pulitzer Prize-winning historian and Harvard professor Annette Gordon-Reed. Her new book is called \"On Juneteenth.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, he came back. Jefferson frees him after he trained somebody to be a chef because he brought him over there to teach him how to be a chef. And he paid a lot of money for that. He trained in some of"}
{"id": "1000131568", "date": "2021-05-25", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' Historian Examines The 'Hope' And 'Hostility' Toward Emancipation", "question_index": 35, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Pulitzer Prize-winning historian and Harvard professor Annette Gordon-Reed. Her new book is called \"On Juneteenth.\" It's part memoir, part history. And the history is not only of Juneteenth, which marks the day enslaved people in Texas were freed, June 19, 1865, the book is also about how central slavery is to the history of Texas. You mentioned in your new book about Juneteenth that, you know, American history is, like, really complicated.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, he came back. Jefferson frees him after he trained somebody to be a chef because he brought him over there to teach him how to be a chef. And he paid a lot of money for that. He trained in some of"}
{"id": "1000131568", "date": "2021-05-25", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' Historian Examines The 'Hope' And 'Hostility' Toward Emancipation", "question_index": 36, "text": "And, you know, the relationship between Hemings and Jefferson is probably another example of that. So you spoke a little earlier about the detachment you have to have when you were seen as this really controversial child because you were integrating a white school.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1000131568", "date": "2021-05-25", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' Historian Examines The 'Hope' And 'Hostility' Toward Emancipation", "question_index": 37, "text": "And do you feel a sense of detachment from the history that you're writing so that you can - I mean, do you try to see things from everybody's point of view, including, like, the white slave owner's point of view?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm hmm."}
{"id": "1000131568", "date": "2021-05-25", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' Historian Examines The 'Hope' And 'Hostility' Toward Emancipation", "question_index": 38, "text": "Right. Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I try to see everything from people's points of view. I don't always endorse their points of view."}
{"id": "1000131568", "date": "2021-05-25", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' Historian Examines The 'Hope' And 'Hostility' Toward Emancipation", "question_index": 39, "text": "I want to end the interview by going back to Juneteenth, which is the subject of your new book. Juneteenth is a Texas holiday. It's a state holiday - right? - now. What would it take for it to become a national holiday?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I try to see - because I want to know what happened, you know? If I'm assuming wrong motivations, wrong thoughts, or attributing them to someone, then I'm not really figuring out what is going on "}
{"id": "1000131568", "date": "2021-05-25", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' Historian Examines The 'Hope' And 'Hostility' Toward Emancipation", "question_index": 40, "text": "How important to you is it to have a national holiday that recognizes the emancipation of slaves?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Congress would have to accept it, and people would have to think that it was important enough, central enough, to the United States. And apparently, I think that there may be three states now wh"}
{"id": "1000131568", "date": "2021-05-25", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' Historian Examines The 'Hope' And 'Hostility' Toward Emancipation", "question_index": 41, "text": "Annette Gordon-Reed, it's been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you for so much enlightening information about American history.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's very important. My father used to joke - I don't know how much he was joking. He would say, the slaves haven't been freed. What he was talking about is that there's still a long struggle "}
{"id": "1000131568", "date": "2021-05-25", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' Historian Examines The 'Hope' And 'Hostility' Toward Emancipation", "question_index": 42, "text": "Annette Gordon-Reed's new book is called \"On Juneteenth.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be Yusef Salaam, one of five men who were convicted as teenagers, then exonerated, in the Central Park jogger case. Their story was dramatized in the Netflix series \"When They See Us.\" Salaam reflects on his experience in his new memoir, \"Better, Not Bitter: Living On Purpose In The Pursuit Of Racial Justice.\" I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having me."}
{"id": "1000131568", "date": "2021-05-25", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' Historian Examines The 'Hope' And 'Hostility' Toward Emancipation", "question_index": 43, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Kayla Lattimore. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having me."}
{"id": "1000869614", "date": "2021-05-27", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "Voting Restrictions Are Further Politicizing U.S. Electoral System, Journalist Says", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Nick Corasaniti, has been reporting on what he describes as how the Republican Party is attempting to lock in political control for years to come by pushing through new laws to restrict voting access, limit ballot initiatives that could undermine Republican goals and stiffen penalties for poll workers and election officials who make even minor mistakes. At the same time, Republican lawmakers in at least eight states controlled by Republican legislatures are trying to remove the powers that secretaries of state, governors and nonpartisan election boards have over how elections are run. He says these efforts could further undermine the country's democratic norms. New restrictive voting bills have already been signed into law in Georgia and Florida. Nick Corasaniti covers national politics for The New York Times. He's been writing about voting and voting rights. He was one of the lead reporters covering Donald Trump's 2016 presidential campaign. Nick Corasaniti, welcome to FRESH AIR. I know you just got back from Texas, where you've been covering the proposed new voting restrictions there. Let's start by talking about what many of the new and proposed laws have in common when it comes to restricting voting rights.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1000869614", "date": "2021-05-27", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "Voting Restrictions Are Further Politicizing U.S. Electoral System, Journalist Says", "question_index": 1, "text": "What are some of the more unique or extreme or extremely baffling restrictions that you're aware of?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Well, thanks so much for having me, Terry. A few things that we're seeing across the country right now when it comes to all of these bills in different states that are seeking overhauls of stat"}
{"id": "1000869614", "date": "2021-05-27", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "Voting Restrictions Are Further Politicizing U.S. Electoral System, Journalist Says", "question_index": 2, "text": "In one of your articles, you described Georgia's new voting law as having a breathtaking assertion of partisan power in elections. What makes it breathtaking?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the one that has really, I think, annoyed a lot of election officials that they've almost testified against - and these are bipartisan election officials - has been some of the limits on dropbox"}
{"id": "1000869614", "date": "2021-05-27", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "Voting Restrictions Are Further Politicizing U.S. Electoral System, Journalist Says", "question_index": 3, "text": "So this risks turning the election process in Georgia into a very partisanly controlled process with the desired outcome of favoring the Republican Party.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what the Georgia law did was really kind of seek to take more authority over the administration of elections and put it in the hands of the legislature. There were two different kind of facets i"}
{"id": "1000869614", "date": "2021-05-27", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "Voting Restrictions Are Further Politicizing U.S. Electoral System, Journalist Says", "question_index": 4, "text": "Do you think that what the Republican Party has backed in terms of who has the power in determining election law varies or how - or in determining how elections are run varies on where Republicans have the most control? In other words, if it's a Republican legislature, let them have the most control. If there's a Republican secretary of state who's very loyal to the party, let them have a lot of control. If not, let's take away some of the control.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it certainly inserts more politics. And in this case, in a state with a Republican-controlled legislature, more Republican control over the administration of elections. Now, legislatures are alw"}
{"id": "1000869614", "date": "2021-05-27", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "Voting Restrictions Are Further Politicizing U.S. Electoral System, Journalist Says", "question_index": 5, "text": "State legislatures are behind the voting restrictions and the move toward voting restrictions that we're seeing. A majority of state legislatures in the U.S. have Republican majorities. Is that a trend that's likely or unlikely to change in the near future?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think what we've seen in a lot of these bills is efforts by legislatures to take power of election administration away from election officials. So most of these efforts in bills introduced this year"}
{"id": "1000869614", "date": "2021-05-27", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "Voting Restrictions Are Further Politicizing U.S. Electoral System, Journalist Says", "question_index": 6, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Nick Corasaniti, a New York Times political reporter who has been covering voting-related issues. We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd say it's pretty unlikely to change in the near future, and that's because of redistricting and gerrymandered districts that are unlikely to change. You can look at states, especially in the Midwes"}
{"id": "1000869614", "date": "2021-05-27", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "Voting Restrictions Are Further Politicizing U.S. Electoral System, Journalist Says", "question_index": 7, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Nick Corasaniti, a New York Times political reporter who has been covering voting and voting rights, including Republican efforts to restrict voting and enact other voting related changes that would favor their party. You've spent the past three weeks in Texas, which is an important battleground state and now has an election bill before it, a voting restriction bill. Why were you spending so much time in Texas? What makes that state so important now in this pending legislation? And I should say this story in Texas is changing perhaps as we speak. And we're recording this interview, so I'll preface your answer with that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd say it's pretty unlikely to change in the near future, and that's because of redistricting and gerrymandered districts that are unlikely to change. You can look at states, especially in the Midwes"}
{"id": "1000869614", "date": "2021-05-27", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "Voting Restrictions Are Further Politicizing U.S. Electoral System, Journalist Says", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is a little sidebar, but what's kind of fascinating, the Republican chair of the state house election committee, Briscoe Cain, who wrote a lot of the language in the bill, originally had a line in about, you know, preserving the purity of the ballot box. It was pointed out to him by a Democratic representative that that's Jim Crow language, that - language that was traditionally used to prevent Black people from voting, to which Briscoe Cain said, oh, yeah, I didn't know that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Well, one of the reasons that Texas is going to be so important is it has the potential to be the most restrictive voting bill that we see this year pass in a Republican-controlled state. And i"}
{"id": "1000869614", "date": "2021-05-27", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "Voting Restrictions Are Further Politicizing U.S. Electoral System, Journalist Says", "question_index": 9, "text": "Now, you write that Republicans are targeting every level of elections, not just, like, voting rights, but also ballot initiatives. They're trying to limit ballot initiatives. And so far, Republicans have introduced 144 bills to restrict the ballot initiative processes in 32 states. Nineteen of those initiatives have been signed into law by nine Republican governors. Why are ballot initiatives being targeted?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that was a major moment in the debate about, you know, when this bill was first brought to the floor. And it was happening, I think, at like 11 p.m., but it all kind of runs together. But it was"}
{"id": "1000869614", "date": "2021-05-27", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "Voting Restrictions Are Further Politicizing U.S. Electoral System, Journalist Says", "question_index": 10, "text": "So it's a way for Democrats in Democratic areas to get around Republican-controlled legislatures?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's a really recent trend that we've seen Democrats and liberal groups really leverage ballot initiatives to kind of bypass Republican-controlled legislatures and enact laws in red states that,"}
{"id": "1000869614", "date": "2021-05-27", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "Voting Restrictions Are Further Politicizing U.S. Electoral System, Journalist Says", "question_index": 11, "text": "You give one particularly strange example of one of these restrictions. And this is in South Dakota. Do you want to talk, like, about the one page, 14-point font", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Exactly. It's - you know, if there's an issue that's popular - and, you know, some of these, you can look at raising the minimum wage, you know, they often poll above 50%. They're never, you know"}
{"id": "1000869614", "date": "2021-05-27", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "Voting Restrictions Are Further Politicizing U.S. Electoral System, Journalist Says", "question_index": 12, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Exactly. It's - you know, if there's an issue that's popular - and, you know, some of these, you can look at raising the minimum wage, you know, they often poll above 50%. They're never, you know"}
{"id": "1000869614", "date": "2021-05-27", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "Voting Restrictions Are Further Politicizing U.S. Electoral System, Journalist Says", "question_index": 13, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Nick Corasaniti, a political reporter for The New York Times. We'll talk more about Republican efforts to change how Americans vote and who gets to vote after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So one of the most creative, I guess you could say, and also strange methods of trying to, you know, limit and put new barriers towards a ballot initiative making it on the bills in South Dakota"}
{"id": "1000869614", "date": "2021-05-27", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "Voting Restrictions Are Further Politicizing U.S. Electoral System, Journalist Says", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Nick Corasaniti, a political reporter for The New York Times. He's been covering the Republican Party's efforts to lock in political control for years to come by pushing through new laws to restrict voting access, limited ballot initiatives that could undermine Republican goals and stiffen penalties for poll workers and election officials who make even minor mistakes. It seems that Republican legislatures are targeting every level of the voting process - who gets to vote, who writes the voting rules and who oversees the election process. One of the things you've been writing about are the bills targeting election officials and poll workers and more than two dozen bills in nine states are either making their way through legislatures or have been signed into law. So who is being targeted?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So one of the most creative, I guess you could say, and also strange methods of trying to, you know, limit and put new barriers towards a ballot initiative making it on the bills in South Dakota"}
{"id": "1000869614", "date": "2021-05-27", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "Voting Restrictions Are Further Politicizing U.S. Electoral System, Journalist Says", "question_index": 15, "text": "So what are some of the penalties, legal and financial, that poll workers and election officials, election judges might face now in states that have passed restrictive voting legislation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the targeting here is almost universal in terms of people who run elections. It's everyone from your local poll workers or local election judges, as they're called in Texas, who are basically low-p"}
{"id": "1000869614", "date": "2021-05-27", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "Voting Restrictions Are Further Politicizing U.S. Electoral System, Journalist Says", "question_index": 16, "text": "What are some of the punishments that are being enacted or proposed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the financial penalties can be as great as $25,000 in Florida if an election official fails to keep a poll worker or staffer physically monitoring the dropboxes in the state. It carries a $25,000 f"}
{"id": "1000869614", "date": "2021-05-27", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "Voting Restrictions Are Further Politicizing U.S. Electoral System, Journalist Says", "question_index": 17, "text": "These used to be pretty low-profile positions. But now, as you say, people are being threatened because the whole election process has become so politicized. I would imagine this could have a very chilling effect on people who oversee elections, on the election judges, on poll workers. So what is the point of discouraging people from doing that work?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So in Texas, they are kind of really targeting the people who run elections on the day to day, those kind of election judges who, you know, show up and administer the elections during early voting and"}
{"id": "1000869614", "date": "2021-05-27", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "Voting Restrictions Are Further Politicizing U.S. Electoral System, Journalist Says", "question_index": 18, "text": "So opponents of new restrictive voting bills say they're designed to limit voting in largely African Americans communities. They're designed to target Black voters. What are some of the things that are being singled out by critics as being designed to target Black voters?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it kind of gets at what we saw during the 2020 election as a big obsession among a lot of Trump supporters and kind of even the president himself, which is in their kind of quest to find this ra"}
{"id": "1000869614", "date": "2021-05-27", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "Voting Restrictions Are Further Politicizing U.S. Electoral System, Journalist Says", "question_index": 19, "text": "Let's take another short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Nick Corasaniti, a New York Times political reporter covering voting and voting rights. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there's a few, and it varies from state. But there's long been studies that prove that certain additional voter ID laws often impact communities of color at a disproportionate level than, say, w"}
{"id": "1000869614", "date": "2021-05-27", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "Voting Restrictions Are Further Politicizing U.S. Electoral System, Journalist Says", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Nick Corasaniti, a New York Times political reporter who has been covering Republican efforts to restrict voting and enact other voting-related changes that would favor their party. You've written about how Republicans and conservative groups are coordinating efforts to write bills for different states that would restrict voting. So let's talk about that coordination and what you found. Let's start with the role of Heritage Action for America, which is the political arm of the conservative Heritage Foundation. What have they been doing to coordinate efforts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there's a few, and it varies from state. But there's long been studies that prove that certain additional voter ID laws often impact communities of color at a disproportionate level than, say, w"}
{"id": "1000869614", "date": "2021-05-27", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "Voting Restrictions Are Further Politicizing U.S. Electoral System, Journalist Says", "question_index": 21, "text": "You give another example of how the election process has become more partisan. The election integrity committees of the Republican National Committee and the Republican State Leadership Committee are filled with members who challenged the election results in 2020.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Heritage has been one of the biggest behind-the-scenes players in the effort to add new restrictions and overhaul voting laws across the country. And they've been pretty public about it. So it star"}
{"id": "1000869614", "date": "2021-05-27", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "Voting Restrictions Are Further Politicizing U.S. Electoral System, Journalist Says", "question_index": 22, "text": "The committees that are supposed to be overseeing the integrity of elections are filled with people who have challenged the results of the 2020 presidential election with no evidence supporting that. What does that say?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Both of those committees, which were formed after the election and are kind of charged with helping to both sell the public on these changes to voting laws and also craft new voting laws and rest"}
{"id": "1000869614", "date": "2021-05-27", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "Voting Restrictions Are Further Politicizing U.S. Electoral System, Journalist Says", "question_index": 23, "text": "So I know that there are Democrats and there are voting rights groups that are trying to fight back against the new strict voting laws. What are some of the things that are being done to challenge the new restrictions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it kind of shows just how deeply I think the big lie has embedded itself in a broad part of the Republican Party. It's almost becoming like a litmus test in these Republican primaries that we're"}
{"id": "1000869614", "date": "2021-05-27", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "Voting Restrictions Are Further Politicizing U.S. Electoral System, Journalist Says", "question_index": 24, "text": "So, you know, in reading your reporting in The New York Times, you've come out and said that these efforts to restrict voting and to limit ballot initiatives and cut the powers of secretaries of state and punish poll workers, that these efforts can undermine our democracy and undermine the country's democratic norms and threaten the fairness that is the bedrock of American democracy. And I'm wondering if you got any pushback about writing that from editors at the paper because I think The New York Times has really been struggling with what to call a lie and what to call, you know, a factual misstatement and what is just, like, a fact and what sounds too partisan.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the main avenue currently available to Democrats and voting rights groups pushing back against these laws is lawsuits. So we've seen it in Georgia and Florida. I anticipate we will see it in Tex"}
{"id": "1000869614", "date": "2021-05-27", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "Voting Restrictions Are Further Politicizing U.S. Electoral System, Journalist Says", "question_index": 25, "text": "Nick Corasaniti, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think we've been pretty consistent even before the 2020 election, you know, in our coverage of efforts to restrict the voting. I think of the amazing series that my colleague Jim Rutenberg did in 20"}
{"id": "1000869614", "date": "2021-05-27", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "Voting Restrictions Are Further Politicizing U.S. Electoral System, Journalist Says", "question_index": 26, "text": "Nick Corasaniti is a political reporter for The New York Times covering voting and voting rights. After we take a short break, TV critic David Bianculli will review three new documentaries about the Tulsa massacre of 1921 in which white mobs attacked the community known as Black Wall Street. They killed hundreds of residents and destroyed many Black-owned homes and businesses. Monday marks the 100th anniversary of the massacre. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. I really enjoyed the conversation."}
{"id": "1000915124", "date": "2021-05-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 0, "text": "Loudon Wainwright, Vince Giordano, welcome both of you back to FRESH AIR. There's so much joy in that recording that we just heard. How did you choose it for the album?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Look at my doorstep. Look at my doorstep. Look at the blackbirds. Look at the bluebirds. Look at the bad luck. Look at the good luck there. Never saw bluebirds mingle with blackbirds. Never "}
{"id": "1000915124", "date": "2021-05-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 1, "text": "And I like that you're not trying to, like, sing in period. You're just singing in your voice. And it sounds so great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "the greatest male jazz vocalist of all times. But for some reason - I don't know why, Vince - we decided that - to take a crack at it."}
{"id": "1000915124", "date": "2021-05-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 2, "text": "So we asked if you would be willing to perform a couple of songs for us. So I'm going to ask you to do a song that I never heard before that I really like called \"How I Love You.\" And Loudon, is there a story behind the song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I kind of saw it as an acting job, not to do an imitation of Bing Crosby, but - or something like that, but to just sing it in my voice, but somehow emotionally inhabit the material."}
{"id": "1000915124", "date": "2021-05-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 3, "text": "So Loudon's going to be playing ukulele on this and Vince on tuba. You want to give it a go for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had sent you a couple of links of a great entertainer and ukulele player named Cliff Edwards. And Cliff Edwards was known for introducing \"Lady Be Good\" and \"Singin' In The Rain.\" And, of cour"}
{"id": "1000915124", "date": "2021-05-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 4, "text": "Oh, that's wonderful.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Through fields of golden flowers, where we spent sunny hours, I'm strolling along, thinking of you. I told the four-leaf clover my lonesome days are over. I talk about you all the day throug"}
{"id": "1000915124", "date": "2021-05-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 5, "text": "That was Loudon Wainwright singing and playing ukulele and Vince Giordano playing tuba. And they just did that for us. They have an album of songs from the 1920s and '30s that's called \"I'd Rather Lead A Band.\" And Loudon, I love that scat chorus, which is", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Through fields of golden flowers, where we spent sunny hours, I'm strolling along, thinking of you. I told the four-leaf clover my lonesome days are over. I talk about you all the day throug"}
{"id": "1000915124", "date": "2021-05-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 6, "text": "not something you do on the album.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Through fields of golden flowers, where we spent sunny hours, I'm strolling along, thinking of you. I told the four-leaf clover my lonesome days are over. I talk about you all the day throug"}
{"id": "1000915124", "date": "2021-05-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 7, "text": "So you play ukulele on that. I think the ukulele is an instrument that's often kind of mocked. What do you really like about the instrument?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no. It's not - you know, it kind of is a stretch from the family dysfunctional material that I'm so well known for. It's very optimistic and up, which is - I love that aspect of it."}
{"id": "1000915124", "date": "2021-05-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 8, "text": "You actually do another song that Ukulele Ike originated...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And portable. Vince mentioned Cliff Edwards, who was also known as Ukulele Ike - great, great, great ukulele player. And I'm just a fan of the instrument."}
{"id": "1000915124", "date": "2021-05-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 9, "text": "...And it's called \"I'm Going To Give It To Marry With Love.\" And this is a song...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1000915124", "date": "2021-05-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is a song - I'm trying to think. It's a double entendre song, you know, because it's like, I'm going to give it to Mary with love, and the it is - how do we put it? There's also a line - I'm going to - she's going to hold it in her little hands. So maybe that'll give you a sense of what the it is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1000915124", "date": "2021-05-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 11, "text": "I'm getting kind of lewd. I used to play this on my show when I had a radio show in Buffalo on the college station because it was so amusing to me that the guy who did the voice on \"Pinocchio\" and who was famous for singing \"When You Wish Upon A Star\" was singing this incredibly lewd song. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, you're getting kind of lewd here. I don't know."}
{"id": "1000915124", "date": "2021-05-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 12, "text": "Right. And for people who don't know the expression, party records are lewd records", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It comes from a party record, and there's no composer on the record. Cliff Edwards went in and out of good times. And I think at this point in his life - 35, 36 - he probably needed some money. So, yo"}
{"id": "1000915124", "date": "2021-05-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 13, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It comes from a party record, and there's no composer on the record. Cliff Edwards went in and out of good times. And I think at this point in his life - 35, 36 - he probably needed some money. So, yo"}
{"id": "1000915124", "date": "2021-05-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 14, "text": "...With a lot of double entendres. Under the counter - is that what you said?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes."}
{"id": "1000915124", "date": "2021-05-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 15, "text": "So it's interesting that he did that 'cause he was down on his luck. I had no idea about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think they were sold kind of on the sly."}
{"id": "1000915124", "date": "2021-05-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 16, "text": "Let me reintroduce you both. If you're just joining us, my guests are singer and songwriter Loudon Wainwright and Vince Giordano, who leads the small big-band the Nighthawks and plays tuba, bass and bass saxophone. Their new album together is called \"I'd Rather Lead A Band.\" Some of the songs on here - I mean, these are songs from the 1920s and '30s, so a lot of the songs are, like, from the Depression era. And there's a good deal of songs from that era that are all about, you know, the simple pleasures of life 'cause that's all people had. They didn't have money. And you do one of those songs on the new album, \"The Little Things In Life.\" And it's also a song about, you know, forming a family and having a baby and how, like, perfect that is. So it's an interesting song for you to sing, Loudon, because your songs, your original songs, are about how imperfect", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "he was a wild man."}
{"id": "1000915124", "date": "2021-05-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 17, "text": "families are and how difficult fatherhood is. Singing this song is just so, like, out of character for you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "he was a wild man."}
{"id": "1000915124", "date": "2021-05-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 18, "text": "So let's hear it. Vince, is there anything you want to say about it before we play it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it's very idealistic, but - and I think Bing Crosby might have had a big hit with this one. We took a shot and did it. And yeah, as you say, you know, this material was in the Depression. Peop"}
{"id": "1000915124", "date": "2021-05-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 19, "text": "So this is \"The Little Things In Life,\" an early Irving Berlin song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, it's what I call one of Irving Berlin's sleepers because not too many people know about it. It's not from a show or a film. It's just a pop song that he penned out of many thousands th"}
{"id": "1000915124", "date": "2021-05-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 20, "text": "OK, pretty early. And it's from the Loudon Wainwright-Vince Giordano album \"I'd Rather Lead A Band.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "1930."}
{"id": "1000915124", "date": "2021-05-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 21, "text": "LOUDON WAINWRIGHT", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "1930."}
{"id": "1000915124", "date": "2021-05-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 22, "text": "So that's a lovely song from the new album, \"I'd Rather Lead A Band,\" featuring Loudon Wainwright and Vince Giordano and his band the Nighthawks. Thank you both so much for your generosity in doing this for us and playing for us and going to the studio, socially distanced, in separate rooms", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Just a little room or two can more than do a little man and wife. That's if they're contented with the little things in life. Living on a larger scale would soon entail a lot of care and str"}
{"id": "1000915124", "date": "2021-05-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Loudon Wainwright III And Vince Giordano Play From The Great American Songbook", "question_index": 23, "text": ", and for being here to talk with us. And thank you for the wonderful album.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Just a little room or two can more than do a little man and wife. That's if they're contented with the little things in life. Living on a larger scale would soon entail a lot of care and str"}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. This year marks the 50th anniversary of the label Philadelphia International Records, which released many hits that helped define the Philly sound, like \"For The Love Of Money,\" \"Me And Mrs. Jones,\" \"I'll Be Around,\" \"If You Don't Know Me By Now,\" \"Love Train,\" \"Break Up To Make Up\" and \"TSOP\" - a.k.a. the \"Soul Train\" theme. The anniversary is being celebrated with the release of several archival collections and remixes. Today we listen back to my interview with Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff, who founded Philadelphia International Records in 1971 and wrote and produced many of the label's hits. The label was home to such groups as Harold Melvin & the Blue Notes, the O'Jays, Billy Paul, Teddy Pendergrass and McFadden & Whitehead. When I spoke with Gamble and Huff in 2008, they'd just released a box set called \"Love Train,\" collecting many Philadelphia International hits, along with some Gamble and Huff collaborations they recorded for other labels before they created their own label. Let's start with one of the hits they wrote and produced. From 1972, this is the O'Jays' \"Backstabbers.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 1, "text": "Kenny Gamble, Leon Huff, welcome to FRESH AIR. Now, Leon Huff, was that you on the piano at the very beginning?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) What they do? They're smiling in your face. All the time, they want to take your place, the backstabbers. Backstabbers. They're smiling in your face. All the time, they want to take your pla"}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 2, "text": "OK. Tell us about figuring out what you were going to play there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 3, "text": "OK. So after we hear that opening, then the rhythm section comes in and then the strings. And it's a really big production, which is something that Philadelphia International really specialized in. Kenny Gamble, you want to talk about that kind of big, produced, orchestral sound that you got?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Backstabbers\" sounds like something, like, eerie, you know, something eerie. Like - so that roll was like something horrible because that's what backstabbers are. So that roll reflected that type of "}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 4, "text": "How did you know a lot about the instruments of the orchestra that you wouldn't typically hear in a small band, like French horns or flugelhorns?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, that sound of the orchestra was always - that was our dream, to be able to play so many countermelodies that came along with those songs that the orchestra was able to put that togethe"}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 5, "text": "Like, did you study that kind of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Right. Right. Yeah."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 6, "text": "Like, how did you develop an ear for those kinds of instruments?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 7, "text": "Oh. I love marching - I was in a band like that, too", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I've come in contact with those types of instruments because I was in a band in elementary school, marching band..."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I've come in contact with those types of instruments because I was in a band in elementary school, marching band..."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 9, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Which is a great experience, you know?"}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 10, "text": "Kenny Gamble, were you in a marching band also?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I had the opportunity to hear trombones and French horns and flutes and piccolos and all that kind of good stuff that makes up a fantastic orchestra. So that's how I became familiar, you know, vibe"}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 11, "text": "Yeah, strings and timpani and - yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no. Not no marching band. But we had a band. And I think that the music that influenced me most, you know, from like the early - late '50s, like Burt Bacharach, Hal David and Leiber and Stoller - "}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 12, "text": "Let's hear another great track from Philadelphia International Records. And we're going to hear \"If You Don't Know Me By Now\" by Harold Melvin & the Blue Notes. And Teddy Pendergrass sings lead on this. And, I think, Leon Huff, you're the one who discovered that Teddy Pendergrass could sing as good as he did.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Everything, you know? \"There Goes My Baby,\" I think that was probably one of the first songs that had a full orchestra. And then Dionne Warwick and Burt Bacharach and Hal David - I mean, they did some"}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 13, "text": "He was the drummer with the band. Did you know that he could sing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, caught my ear, you know, in a rehearsal, his particular sound - the big baritone."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 14, "text": "Did Harold Melvin mind that Teddy Pendergrass was singing lead and not Harold Melvin?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So we called it Hal Melvin & the Blue Notes, featuring Teddy Pendergrass."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 15, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he might've because, see; it was Hal Melvin & the Blue Notes. And people thought that Teddy Pendergrass was Hal Melvin."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, before we hear \"If You Don't Know Me By Now,\" do you want to say anything else to introduce it about how you wrote the song, for instance?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know?"}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 17, "text": "OK, so this is Harold Melvin & the Blue Notes from 1972 with Teddy Pendergrass singing lead, and my guests Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff wrote the song and produced the record.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, pick one. And then all of a sudden, you know, if you don't know me by now, you'll never know me. It seemed like it fit the order of the day."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 18, "text": "And won a Grammy for it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And won a Grammy."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 19, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And won a Grammy."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 20, "text": "HAROLD MELVIN", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And won a Grammy."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 21, "text": "That's Harold Melvin & the Blue Notes with Teddy Pendergrass singing lead, recorded in 1972, written and produced by my guests Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff. And while we were listening to that, Kenny Gamble, you were telling me something I want you to repeat.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) If you don't know me by now, you will never, never, never know me. All the things that we've been through, you should understand me like I understand you. Now, baby, I know the difference be"}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 22, "text": "Oh, you're kidding.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Archie Bell - we were the Drells. I mean, you know, so..."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 23, "text": "That's so funny.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Archie Bell - we were the Drells. I mean, you know, so..."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 24, "text": "Well, that leads me right to where I want to go. I mean, I know you used to sing in a group called the Romeos.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 25, "text": "Neither of you is going to do a few bars of \"Moon River\" for me?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 26, "text": "No?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We don't care for that anymore."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 27, "text": "Well, you know, I should mention, early - Leon Huff, early in your career, you also did some session work for Phil Spector.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it took me about an hour to get in. Well, once I got in, then I could see why - because they was rocking the place. So me as a musician, I could say, oh, I could be in a band like that - 'cause I t"}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 28, "text": "Played piano on the famous Phil Spector Christmas album.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 29, "text": "You did work with Leiber and Stoller.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That's right."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 30, "text": "So did that - did you think that that was your future, doing session work? Or did you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 31, "text": "...Think you'd become a songwriter-producer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was one of my first dreams. I wanted..."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 32, "text": "To read liner notes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, as a young boy, I always had albums in my house. My mother used to take us to music stores, albums, to read liner notes. I used to do all of that, you know?"}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 33, "text": "Yeah, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I used to get - then they had liner notes on back of albums."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 34, "text": "What did you learn from working with Phil Spector and Leiber and Stoller, great producers, that you applied to Philadelphia International Records?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I used to read all of them, you know? And I always wanted to be a studio musician. That's what I wanted to do."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 35, "text": "Like what? What did he do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Phil Spector had a whole different approach 'cause..."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 36, "text": "We're listening back to the interview I recorded in 2008 with Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff. They co-founded Philadelphia International Records in 1971, which had dozens of hits and defined the Philly sound. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, the wall of sound, you know? You know, you have every - every individual musician played their part down, you know, then he worked for hours on the drum sound. He'll tell all the musicians t"}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 37, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded in 2008 with songwriters and producers Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff. This year marks the 50th anniversary of the label they co-founded, Philadelphia International Records, which defined the Philly sound. When we spoke, they'd just released a box set collecting songs from their label. It also included some Gamble and Huff collaborations that they recorded for other labels before founding their own.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, the wall of sound, you know? You know, you have every - every individual musician played their part down, you know, then he worked for hours on the drum sound. He'll tell all the musicians t"}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 38, "text": "I want to play one of those, and I think this is the first real hit that you had. It's from 1967 - \"Expressway To Your Heart,\" The Soul Survivors. So tell us how this recording came to be. Why don't you start with writing the song? And let me say, you - you're from Philadelphia, Kenny Gamble. Leon Huff, you're from Camden. Close enough?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, the wall of sound, you know? You know, you have every - every individual musician played their part down, you know, then he worked for hours on the drum sound. He'll tell all the musicians t"}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 39, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, the wall of sound, you know? You know, you have every - every individual musician played their part down, you know, then he worked for hours on the drum sound. He'll tell all the musicians t"}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 40, "text": "Yeah, it's just right over the river in New Jersey. And there is an expressway in Philadelphia called the Schuylkill Expressway...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah. That's right."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 41, "text": "...That is famous for its unpredictable traffic jams.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 42, "text": "So does the Schuylkill Expressway - is that the expressway referred to in \"Expressway To Your Heart\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 43, "text": "Were you thinking about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's it."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 44, "text": "So when you were in the car writing that song on the way to see your woman friend...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know what I mean? And that's how I come through with that. I said - expressway to your heart, put that baseline - doo, doo, doo-doo-doo (ph). And that was - you know, that's how songs come, though"}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 45, "text": "...Who did you end up seeing first - Leon Huff or her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 46, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 47, "text": "So her first. And then...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 48, "text": "So you kept it in your mind?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah. I saw her first, yeah."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 49, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I saw Huff the next day, yeah."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 50, "text": "Now, Leon Huff, did you think what this song needs to start with - well, first of all, it starts with horns like, you know, horns - car horns honking in traffic.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "'Cause I'll forget it."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 51, "text": "And the horns are tuned. I mean, there's a line...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Car horns."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 52, "text": "Yeah, there's a line with, like, one horn, and then that line is repeated in different pitch in another horn, and they're in harmony with each other.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 53, "text": "So are those rail car horns? Or did you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It sounds like it."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 54, "text": "Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, they're real car horns. But you know what? That was inspired a little bit by - there was a song called \"Summer In The City.\""}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 55, "text": "That's true. They did. Yeah, yeah, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Hot town, summer in the city. They had car horns in it and stuff like that."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 56, "text": "He was the engineer, Joe Tarsia. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's true. So Joe Tarsia and I, we just..."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 57, "text": "Yeah?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was the engineer. And so we just - we got some - they have these sound effect records where you can - they have car horns on it. They got everything on them, sound effect records. And so we just us"}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 58, "text": "Wait. What's - I know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...That a lot of people don't know, is that we used the same lyrics in \"Expressway\" that we used in a song with The Temptations and The Supremes, \"I'm Gonna Make You Love Me.\""}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 59, "text": "I know that song, but I'm trying...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Think about that."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 60, "text": "...To think of what the similarity is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 61, "text": "Yes, the - in your direction, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK, you see it now, right?"}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 62, "text": "Is that cheating?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The same thing - (singing) it's coming in your direction on the expressway. Same thing. See?"}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 63, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 64, "text": "Good. OK, well, this is a great record. I've always loved this record.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 65, "text": "It's \"Expressway To Your Heart,\" The Soul Survivors, 1967, written by my guests Gamble and Huff and produced by you, too, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 66, "text": "And, Leon Huff, are you playing on this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, we were just..."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 67, "text": "That's you at the piano?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 68, "text": "OK, here we go.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm hmm, yeah."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 69, "text": "We'll hear more of my 2008 interview with songwriters and producers Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff, the founders of Philadelphia International Records, after we take a short break. And jazz critic Kevin Whitehead will review the new Sons of Kemet album \"Black To The Future.\" I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I've been trying to get to you for a long time 'cause constantly you been on my mind. I was thinking about a shortcut I could take, but it seems like I made a mistake. But I was wrong - ooh,"}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 70, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. This year marks the 50th anniversary of Philadelphia International Records, which defined the Philly sound. It was founded by Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff, who modeled their label on Motown Records. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with Gamble and Huff in 2008 after they released a Philly sound box set called \"Love Train,\" named after one of their many hits. When we left off, Gamble and Huff were talking about writing and producing the hit \"Expressway To Your Heart,\" which they recorded with The Soul Survivors before Gamble and Huff founded Philadelphia International Records.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I was wrong. Baby, it took too long. I got caught in the rush hour. Then fellas started to shower you with love and affection. Come on, look in my direction."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 71, "text": "What impact did that recording have on your careers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I was wrong. Baby, it took too long. I got caught in the rush hour. Then fellas started to shower you with love and affection. Come on, look in my direction."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 72, "text": "Love that song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I think one of the good things about it was that The Soul Survivors was a great performing act. They were performing places and just turning the places out. But it was, like, a breakthrough for us"}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 73, "text": "And why didn't you stay there? Like, what didn't work when you were thinking of moving there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Had two records, like, in the top 10. So we figured we'd go to Motown, you know?"}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 74, "text": "Now, you know how you said you kept a list of titles and then eventually wrote songs that would grow out of the titles? Was \"Cowboys To Girls\" one of the titles that was on your list before it was a song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It went real good for us. The timing was good. And Motown will always be my favorite record company."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 75, "text": "And do you remember how it got on the list in the first place?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No question about it."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 76, "text": "So let's squeeze in \"Cowboys To Girls,\" and this is one of those songs that they did before Philadelphia International Records. This is \"Cowboys To Girls.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Cowboys To Girls\" - because it's a story. That story is, like, a story about a guy who grows up - like, little kids - they grow up, and the guy be beating the girls up. And they be pulling their hair"}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 77, "text": "That's \"Cowboys To Girls\" written by my guests Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff, the founders of Philadelphia International Records. And there's a new four-CD box set that collects music from Philadelphia International Records and some of the Gamble and Huff collaborations that preceded that record label. Now, you're from Philly. You've been working - Philly and Camden. And Philadelphia International Records has been headquartered in Philadelphia, which was also the home, when you were getting started, of \"American Bandstand\" with Dick Clark, and that had a really strong impact on the Philadelphia music scene. And the record label Cameo-Parkway, which was based in Philadelphia, had a lot of performers that ended up being stars on \"Bandstand,\" including Dee Dee Sharp, Chubby Checker and his record \"The Twist,\" Bobby Rydell.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Cowboys to girls. I remember, I remember when I used to play shoot 'em (ph) up. Shoot 'em up - bang, bang, baby. I really loved when I chased the girls and beat them up. But I was young and "}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 78, "text": "Frankie Avalon.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Frankie Avalon."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 79, "text": "I think the period when you start having hits is past when \"Bandstand\" was really still based in Philadelphia.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Fabian. I think Cameo-Parkway was another learning tool for us because they basically had a group of writers, too. They were - I mean, Motown was - inspired them because when you go to Cameo-Parkway, "}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 80, "text": "Yeah, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 81, "text": "So you couldn't really break your records on \"Bandstand.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Bandstand\" was gone."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 82, "text": "No.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 83, "text": "Well, you wrote the record that became the theme for \"Soul Train,\" \"TSOP (The Sound Of Philadelphia).\" So I guess my first question about that is, why did you do an instrumental? I mean, instrumentals were basically - they'd kind of fallen from fashion by the time that you did this. Things had vocals on them. So why did you even think about doing an instrumental?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In fact, \"Soul Train\" had come into play."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 84, "text": "Did he ask you to write one?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You understand? Everybody great has kind of - like, you know, from television has a theme song. So we wanted to give Don Cornelius a theme song."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 85, "text": "Oh, I didn't realize that. Oh, he asked you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He came into Philly."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 86, "text": "OK. So this is \"TSOP (The Sound Of Philadelphia)\" - which you also know as the theme from \"Soul Train.\" And this was written and produced by my guests, Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, he came into Philly, you know, because the music he had on there - he was a real good friend of ours, you know? And all of our artists was on his show, you know? And so he came in. And me and Huff"}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 87, "text": "We're listening back to my 2008 interview with songwriters and producers Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff, who co-founded the label Philadelphia International Records 50 years ago. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, he came into Philly, you know, because the music he had on there - he was a real good friend of ours, you know? And all of our artists was on his show, you know? And so he came in. And me and Huff"}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 88, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. This year marks the 50th anniversary of the record label Philadelphia International Records, which had many hits and defined the Philly sound. The label was founded in 1971 by songwriters and producers Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff. Let's get back to my 2008 interview with Gamble and Huff.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, he came into Philly, you know, because the music he had on there - he was a real good friend of ours, you know? And all of our artists was on his show, you know? And so he came in. And me and Huff"}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 89, "text": "Let me play another record that you wrote together and that you produced. And this is \"Me And Mrs. Jones,\" which Billy Paul recorded. And I've read that you have described this as one of the trickiest songs that you did. And I'm wondering what was tricky about it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, he came into Philly, you know, because the music he had on there - he was a real good friend of ours, you know? And all of our artists was on his show, you know? And so he came in. And me and Huff"}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 90, "text": "How did it start off? I mean, how did the idea start off?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That probably was me telling that because it was just - I had a different feel. It was more jazz-orientated, the way - I remember when Gamble was showing me the chords because he had the chord progres"}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 91, "text": "That's \"Me And Mrs. Jones.\" It's one of the recordings on a new four-CD box set that collects some of the recordings from Philadelphia International Records, the label that was founded by my guests Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff. They wrote a lot of the hits on their label, including the record that we just heard, and produced a lot of those records, too. And Leon Huff played keyboard on a lot of those records, too - including the one we just heard?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Me and Mrs. Jones, we got a thing going on. We both know that it's wrong. But it's much to strong to let it go now. We meet every day at the same cafe, 6:30. And no one knows she'll be there"}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 92, "text": "What do you consider to be, like, the end of the real, like, glory days of Philadelphia International Records?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 93, "text": "Because?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it kind of - like, around about '80, '86, somewhere around there - '87 - Patti LaBelle, we had a big hit with Patti LaBelle around. But it started to fall apart a little bit - like the early '"}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 94, "text": "Was music changing also? Like hip-hop?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think people started to evolve. They wanted to do other things. And once you get hot like that, then everybody's after you. You know what I mean? All the record companies was after the artists"}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 95, "text": "How'd you feel about that, when there was a kind of - like, you kind of helped create a sound, and then that sound is kind of becoming a little dated as a new sound - as hip-hop comes in.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think so. Yeah, the music was changing also at the same time. But..."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 96, "text": "Why were you glad?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was glad, to be honest with you."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 97, "text": "Of the songs that you wrote together, do you have a favorite that we should end with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Unbelievable, you know? And you start to feel it after a while, you know, doing 12, 13 albums a year. You know, we had a good staff of people working with us, but it was - no question, it was a lot"}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 98, "text": "Thank you both so much. Kenny Gamble, Leon Huff - thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "1001192957", "date": "2021-05-31", "guest": "The O'Jays", "title": "'Fresh Air' Celebrates 50 Years Of Philadelphia International Records", "question_index": 99, "text": "My interview with Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff was recorded in 2008. This year marks the 50th anniversary of their label, Philadelphia International Records. After we take a short break, jazz critic Kevin Whitehead will review the new album \"Black To The Future\" by the British jazz band Sons of Kemet. This is Fresh Air.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) People all over the world - everybody - join hands - join - start a love train - you - love train. People all over the world - all over, now - join hands - love right - start a love train - "}
{"id": "1002858655", "date": "2021-06-03", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "How Russia Used An Overt Agent To Attack Joe Biden In The 2020 Election", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Last week, The New York Times reported that federal prosecutors in Brooklyn are investigating whether former and current Ukrainian officials tried to interfere in the 2020 election, including by funneling misleading information through Rudy Giuliani. At the time, Giuliani was President Trump's personal attorney. One of the Ukrainian officials under investigation is Andrii Derkach, who was described as an active Russian agent by officials in both the Trump and Biden administrations. Derkach and his contacts with Giuliani are the subject of a new article by my guest Simon Shuster, a Time magazine investigative correspondent who worked out of Moscow for many years and has reported extensively on Russian and Ukrainian oligarchs and connections between those oligarchs and Trump allies. Giuliani is not a subject of the Brooklyn investigation, although some of his contacts are. But federal prosecutors in Manhattan are investigating whether Giuliani illegally lobbied on behalf of Ukrainian officials without registering with the Department of Justice, which would be a violation of the Foreign Agents Registration Act. Simon Shuster, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Thanks for joining us again.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1002858655", "date": "2021-06-03", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "How Russia Used An Overt Agent To Attack Joe Biden In The 2020 Election", "question_index": 1, "text": "So let's get to Andrii Derkach, who's being investigated by Brooklyn prosecutors. He's the subject of your new article. Just explain a little why he's being investigated by Brooklyn prosecutors - federal prosecutors.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. Nice to be with you."}
{"id": "1002858655", "date": "2021-06-03", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "How Russia Used An Overt Agent To Attack Joe Biden In The 2020 Election", "question_index": 2, "text": "So Derkach is a seven-term member of Ukrainian Parliament. He's still in Parliament?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It seems to be in connection to election interference. Now, it's not at all clear really what laws he would have violated, but they're looking at his communications with Rudy Giuliani and his attempts"}
{"id": "1002858655", "date": "2021-06-03", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "How Russia Used An Overt Agent To Attack Joe Biden In The 2020 Election", "question_index": 3, "text": "And he owned, like, a TV station and a bunch of radio stations. Does he still own them? Is he officially an oligarch?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right, yeah."}
{"id": "1002858655", "date": "2021-06-03", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "How Russia Used An Overt Agent To Attack Joe Biden In The 2020 Election", "question_index": 4, "text": "So when Giuliani met with Derkach in Ukraine, did Giuliani or did anyone in the Trump administration know that Derkach was a Russian agent?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Those stations have had to shut down because both - the U.S. government sanctioned them as sort of tools of Derkach's broad election interference strategy. So those stations are no longer on air, as f"}
{"id": "1002858655", "date": "2021-06-03", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "How Russia Used An Overt Agent To Attack Joe Biden In The 2020 Election", "question_index": 5, "text": "What did Derkach give him, what disinformation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was certainly suspected of that. And it wasn't a big secret. It's kind of an open secret, certainly in Ukraine and for officials who worked in the U.S. Embassy in Ukraine. You know, Andrii Derkach "}
{"id": "1002858655", "date": "2021-06-03", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "How Russia Used An Overt Agent To Attack Joe Biden In The 2020 Election", "question_index": 6, "text": "He gave Giuliani tapes, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that was kind of one of the most interesting things of reporting this out. So I got to spend about two hours with Derkach, and he essentially gave me the spiel, the lecture, that he gave Giulian"}
{"id": "1002858655", "date": "2021-06-03", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "How Russia Used An Overt Agent To Attack Joe Biden In The 2020 Election", "question_index": 7, "text": "So what are these tapes? Who made them? Who's on them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A little bit more complicated than that - or sneaky. He released the tapes publicly on YouTube. He released them in press conferences that he would hold in Kyiv in the months leading up to the electio"}
{"id": "1002858655", "date": "2021-06-03", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "How Russia Used An Overt Agent To Attack Joe Biden In The 2020 Election", "question_index": 8, "text": "Which president", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Who made them is kind of a big mystery and something that the Ukrainian authorities are especially keen to figure out because it's quite embarrassing for them. They appear to have been made inside the"}
{"id": "1002858655", "date": "2021-06-03", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "How Russia Used An Overt Agent To Attack Joe Biden In The 2020 Election", "question_index": 9, "text": "are we talking about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Who made them is kind of a big mystery and something that the Ukrainian authorities are especially keen to figure out because it's quite embarrassing for them. They appear to have been made inside the"}
{"id": "1002858655", "date": "2021-06-03", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "How Russia Used An Overt Agent To Attack Joe Biden In The 2020 Election", "question_index": 10, "text": "So which president was he? Was he Russian-backed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "President Petro Poroshenko."}
{"id": "1002858655", "date": "2021-06-03", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "How Russia Used An Overt Agent To Attack Joe Biden In The 2020 Election", "question_index": 11, "text": "When, in fact, what Biden was asking for was kind of the official policy of the Obama administration - and the European Union was on the same page with Biden. So it's not like he was, you know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not at all - not at all. He was, in fact, leading Ukraine throughout the most intense periods of armed conflict with Russia, so he was not. But the tapes - the tapes involve President Poroshenko, "}
{"id": "1002858655", "date": "2021-06-03", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "How Russia Used An Overt Agent To Attack Joe Biden In The 2020 Election", "question_index": 12, "text": "...Stepping out and being personally corrupt or anything like that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Totally."}
{"id": "1002858655", "date": "2021-06-03", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "How Russia Used An Overt Agent To Attack Joe Biden In The 2020 Election", "question_index": 13, "text": "So you said that there's nothing really incriminating or even embarrassing in the tapes of Biden that Derkach made public. So how was it used in such a way so that it could make Biden appear to be guilty of something?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "1002858655", "date": "2021-06-03", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "How Russia Used An Overt Agent To Attack Joe Biden In The 2020 Election", "question_index": 14, "text": "So Giuliani gets this information, puts his own spin on it to try to discredit Biden. When you were talking to Derkach, he offered you a thumb drive over the whole thing. And he also had like a whiteboard. And he outlined this, like, huge conspiracy theory that he has. Would you describe this conspiracy theory and what his, like, flowchart looked like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The allegation is essentially that - so on the tape, you hear Biden, you know, telling the president of Ukraine that the chief prosecutor is not doing enough to combat corruption. Indeed, you know, th"}
{"id": "1002858655", "date": "2021-06-03", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "How Russia Used An Overt Agent To Attack Joe Biden In The 2020 Election", "question_index": 15, "text": "He has a name for this conspiracy theory - DemoCorruption. Like, can you talk about that a little?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So he drew out some of the stuff on a whiteboard. He also had this really kind of fancy poster that he'd printed out and was distributing in digital form and in paper form. And it had - it's lik"}
{"id": "1002858655", "date": "2021-06-03", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "How Russia Used An Overt Agent To Attack Joe Biden In The 2020 Election", "question_index": 16, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Simon Shuster His new article in Time magazine is titled \"How An Accused Russian Agent Worked With Rudy Giuliani In A Plot Against The 2020 Election.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So the term that - the shorthand he uses is DemoCorruption because he insists that not only President Biden is involved in this, but according to this conspiracy theory, the entire Democratic Pa"}
{"id": "1002858655", "date": "2021-06-03", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "How Russia Used An Overt Agent To Attack Joe Biden In The 2020 Election", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Simon Shuster, an investigative reporter for Time magazine. He was based in Russia for years. During the Trump administration, he reported extensively on connections between Russian and Ukrainian oligarchs and Trump allies. His new article is about how Ukrainian oligarch and seven-term member of Parliament Andrii Derkach gave disinformation to Rudy Giuliani to discredit Biden during the 2020 election. You say that the Trump-Biden presidential debates may have been the first time that foreign disinformation made its way into a presidential debate. Which part of the disinformation are you talking about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So the term that - the shorthand he uses is DemoCorruption because he insists that not only President Biden is involved in this, but according to this conspiracy theory, the entire Democratic Pa"}
{"id": "1002858655", "date": "2021-06-03", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "How Russia Used An Overt Agent To Attack Joe Biden In The 2020 Election", "question_index": 18, "text": "So let's talk a little bit more about who Derkach is and what his connections are to Russian intelligence. Let's start with his father 'cause his father was very important in Russian intelligence back in the days of the Soviet Union.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, to my mind, as I argue in the story, that was the culmination of the Russian disinformation campaign in 2020. That was the culmination of the election interference operation. During the "}
{"id": "1002858655", "date": "2021-06-03", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "How Russia Used An Overt Agent To Attack Joe Biden In The 2020 Election", "question_index": 19, "text": "Is he overt about saying, yeah, I used to be associated with the KGB? Like, when you talked to him, did you ask him about his ties to the KGB?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I'd say that's fair. He was a KGB officer, a career KGB officer. He started earlier in his career as one of the KGB officers in charge of protecting this top-secret factory in eastern Ukraine th"}
{"id": "1002858655", "date": "2021-06-03", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "How Russia Used An Overt Agent To Attack Joe Biden In The 2020 Election", "question_index": 20, "text": "When you ask him if he's still connected to Russian intelligence, what does he say?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Repeatedly. Of course, yeah. Yeah, he's totally open about that. We talked about, you know, his time studying there. We talked about what it was like. His studies at the KGB academy in Moscow coincide"}
{"id": "1002858655", "date": "2021-06-03", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "How Russia Used An Overt Agent To Attack Joe Biden In The 2020 Election", "question_index": 21, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here 'cause it's time for another break. My guest is Time magazine investigative correspondent Simon Shuster. His new article is titled \"How An Accused Russian Agent Worked With Rudy Giuliani In A Plot Against The 2020 Election.\" We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's quite evasive. And I was surprised by that because, you know, it was my responsibility and one of my goals in the interview to give him an opportunity to respond directly to the allegations of th"}
{"id": "1002858655", "date": "2021-06-03", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "How Russia Used An Overt Agent To Attack Joe Biden In The 2020 Election", "question_index": 22, "text": "Let's get back to my interview with Time magazine investigative correspondent Simon Shuster, who spent years reporting from Russia. During the Trump presidency, he reported extensively on ties between Russian and Ukrainian oligarchs and Trump allies. Shuster's new article is titled \"How An Accused Russian Agent Worked With Rudy Giuliani In A Plot Against The 2020 Election.\" Federal prosecutors in Manhattan are investigating whether Giuliani illegally lobbied on behalf of Ukrainian officials without registering with the Department of Justice, which would be a violation of the Foreign Agents Registration Act. Last week, The New York Times reported that federal prosecutors in Brooklyn are investigating whether former and current Ukrainian officials tried to interfere in the 2020 election, including by funneling misleading information through Giuliani. Andriy Derkach is one of the Ukrainian officials under investigation in Brooklyn. So the way you've described your meeting with Andriy Derkach is that, you know, he sets up a meeting in his office. You're not meeting in a secret location where no one, you know, can see you. You're in his office. He's just handing you over information. It's not in this, like, secretly decoded thing. He's giving you like a file. He's offering you a thumb drive. That's not exactly the kind of, like, spy craft that we're used to hearing. So is this, like, a new approach?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's quite evasive. And I was surprised by that because, you know, it was my responsibility and one of my goals in the interview to give him an opportunity to respond directly to the allegations of th"}
{"id": "1002858655", "date": "2021-06-03", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "How Russia Used An Overt Agent To Attack Joe Biden In The 2020 Election", "question_index": 23, "text": "Do you think part of the goal of Derkach meeting with you was to say, look; if I was a spy, I wouldn't be meeting with you? That would be ridiculous. I would just be exposing myself. I'm not a spy. I just believe this. I believe I'm right. And I believe people in America should know it. I'm not guilty of anything. I may be being investigated. I didn't do anything. I'm just following what I believe is the truth.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It feels pretty new, especially if you compare it to the Russian election interference operation in 2016. At that time, if you remember, you know, the main thrust of the Russian operation was to"}
{"id": "1002858655", "date": "2021-06-03", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "How Russia Used An Overt Agent To Attack Joe Biden In The 2020 Election", "question_index": 24, "text": "Great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And you just paraphrased his message very clearly. That is what he says."}
{"id": "1002858655", "date": "2021-06-03", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "How Russia Used An Overt Agent To Attack Joe Biden In The 2020 Election", "question_index": 25, "text": "In terms of Derkach being overt - when Derkach met with Giuliani, Derkach took a photo of them together and posted it on Facebook. And Derkach told you when you met with him that he didn't like secret meetings. Why do you think he posted that photograph?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So he says that he went after Joe Biden as a way of exposing corruption not only in the U.S., but, first and foremost, in Ukraine, because, again, this conspiracy theory of DemoCorruption that Derkach"}
{"id": "1002858655", "date": "2021-06-03", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "How Russia Used An Overt Agent To Attack Joe Biden In The 2020 Election", "question_index": 26, "text": "Derkach told you that he has more Biden tapes, five more hours of Biden tapes. Did he tell you what is on those tapes? Did he give you any clues about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So I reported quite extensively on that particular meeting. It was their first in-person meeting. And I spoke to multiple people who were there, including Derkach. And it was fascinating to hear"}
{"id": "1002858655", "date": "2021-06-03", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "How Russia Used An Overt Agent To Attack Joe Biden In The 2020 Election", "question_index": 27, "text": "Do you think the conspiracy theories that Derkach has been spreading, including, you know, the false information that Biden worked to further his son Hunter's financial interests in Ukraine, do you think all this still has legs? I mean, so much of this information was brought out during the impeachment hearings in the House, and Trump was impeached in the House.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. And he actually announced that a couple days after our interview. But it was clear when we met that he intended to continue his, yeah, you know, propaganda war against the Bidens. He had been doin"}
{"id": "1002858655", "date": "2021-06-03", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "How Russia Used An Overt Agent To Attack Joe Biden In The 2020 Election", "question_index": 28, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Simon Shuster. He's an investigative reporter for Time magazine. And his new article is titled \"How An Accused Russian Agent Worked With Rudy Giuliani In A Plot Against The 2020 Election.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think it does very much still have legs. I think it's still a very influential narrative. And the reason I say that is, you know, there's a large - former President Trump still has a very larg"}
{"id": "1002858655", "date": "2021-06-03", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "How Russia Used An Overt Agent To Attack Joe Biden In The 2020 Election", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Simon Shuster, a reporter for Time magazine. He was based in Russia for years during the Trump administration. He reported extensively on connections between Russian and Ukrainian oligarchs and Trump allies. His new article is about how Ukrainian oligarch and seven-term member of Parliament Andrii Derkach gave disinformation to Rudy Giuliani to discredit Biden during the 2012 election. For your article in Time magazine about Andrii Derkach, there was supposed to be a photoshoot of Derkach. And then Derkach contacted you at the last minute and said he had to leave Ukraine and couldn't do the photoshoot. What happened to your knowledge?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think it does very much still have legs. I think it's still a very influential narrative. And the reason I say that is, you know, there's a large - former President Trump still has a very larg"}
{"id": "1002858655", "date": "2021-06-03", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "How Russia Used An Overt Agent To Attack Joe Biden In The 2020 Election", "question_index": 30, "text": "Biden and Putin will soon be meeting for the first time since Biden became president. What are you expecting out of this meeting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know, but it was very, very surprising that he suddenly pulled out really at the last minute. He said he had to leave Ukraine in a hurry. He's very sorry. And I didn't think much of it at the "}
{"id": "1002858655", "date": "2021-06-03", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "How Russia Used An Overt Agent To Attack Joe Biden In The 2020 Election", "question_index": 31, "text": "Well, let's take another short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Simon Shuster. His new article in Time magazine is titled \"How An Accused Russian Agent Worked With Rudy Giuliani In A Plot Against The 2020 Election.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not much. It's not much - a lot of theatrics. And I think, you know, the way that this meeting came to be was quite a victory for Vladimir Putin, you know, in my view and in my understanding of his ap"}
{"id": "1002858655", "date": "2021-06-03", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "How Russia Used An Overt Agent To Attack Joe Biden In The 2020 Election", "question_index": 32, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Simon Shuster, an investigative reporter for Time magazine. His new article is titled \"How An Accused Russian Agent Worked With Rudy Giuliani In A Plot Against The 2020 Election.\" Russia might not be the superpower that the Soviet Union was, but Russia is still kind of a superpower when it comes to spreading disinformation, when it comes to hacking and ransomware. So they're still causing, like, really serious problems. And it's not the threat of trouble, like nuclear weapons were. Nuclear weapons were a threat, but they weren't happening. Whereas the hacking, the disinformation, the ransomware - that's really happening. And whether it's happening - whether the ransomware is happening from hackers or from the government - and Russia - the Russian government does seem to be implicated in some of the hacking. So, I mean, they're still, like, really influential in terms of causing trouble - serious trouble.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not much. It's not much - a lot of theatrics. And I think, you know, the way that this meeting came to be was quite a victory for Vladimir Putin, you know, in my view and in my understanding of his ap"}
{"id": "1002858655", "date": "2021-06-03", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "How Russia Used An Overt Agent To Attack Joe Biden In The 2020 Election", "question_index": 33, "text": "Do you have any idea what the Ukrainian and Russian oligarchs who've been in touch with people in Trump's circle and who have disseminated false information given to them by oligarchs, do you know what the oligarchs think of those people from the Trump circle that they've been in touch with? Do you know what they think of Trump or Giuliani?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I agree with that. And the way that, you know, you - the smartest people who study Russia, the way they think of it is that Putin has been playing a weak hand very well. And he's doing it, you k"}
{"id": "1002858655", "date": "2021-06-03", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "How Russia Used An Overt Agent To Attack Joe Biden In The 2020 Election", "question_index": 34, "text": "So finally - but continuing to examine the relationship between Ukrainian, Russian oligarchs and members of Trump's inner circle, his allies, are we looking backwards? Or are we also looking forwards, because, you know, the kind of meddling and interference that we've seen from Russia and from Ukrainian oligarchs, that's not over, is it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let me stick to Derkach - right? - the focus of my most recent report. I certainly talked to him a great deal about what he thinks of Giuliani. And he was quite complimentary. He said Giuliani is a ve"}
{"id": "1002858655", "date": "2021-06-03", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "How Russia Used An Overt Agent To Attack Joe Biden In The 2020 Election", "question_index": 35, "text": "Well, Simon Shuster, thank you so much for talking with us. And thank you for your reporting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's not over. And I think it's been very frustrating for a lot of U.S. diplomats and investigators because the kind of overt operation that we saw in 2020, it's very hard to point to a crime, p"}
{"id": "1002858655", "date": "2021-06-03", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "How Russia Used An Overt Agent To Attack Joe Biden In The 2020 Election", "question_index": 36, "text": "Simon Shuster is an investigative reporter at Time magazine. His new article is titled \"How An Accused Russian Agent Worked With Rudy Giuliani In A Plot Against The 2020 Election.\" If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed - like our recent interview with Clint Smith about reckoning with the history of slavery in America or with Pulitzer Prize-winning historian Annette Gordon-Reed about the history of Juneteenth - check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much."}
{"id": "1002858655", "date": "2021-06-03", "guest": "Simon Shuster", "title": "How Russia Used An Overt Agent To Attack Joe Biden In The 2020 Election", "question_index": 37, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Seth Kelley and Kayla Lattimore. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much."}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 0, "text": "That's The Delfonics, recorded in 1968, produced, arranged and co-written by my guest, Thom Bell.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Many guys have come to you with a line that wasn't true, and you passed them by. Passed them by. Now you're in the center ring, and their lines don't mean a thing. Why don't you let me try? "}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 1, "text": "And conducted. Thank you. Thom Bell, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And conducted."}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 2, "text": "Well, we just heard one of your early hits. Would you talk a little bit about your concept for that record, \"La La Means I Love You\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you. Thank you. We appreciate being here."}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 3, "text": "You're talking about classical music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've always, because I was studying to be a concert pianist from the time I was 6 until I was 22..."}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 4, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. That's what I was studying to be. I worked with Andre Watts at the time..."}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 5, "text": "And one of the few African American, very successful classical musicians of his generation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Which was, you know, the No. 1 - not only the Black pianist, but a concert pianist, period."}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 6, "text": "So you didn't know pop music? You didn't know soul music, rhythm and blues?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Right. When we were kids, we used to do - in those days, they were called recitals. Now they're called concerts. We'd do our little (unintelligible) things and our little prelude in C Sharp and"}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 7, "text": "So you kind of brought both. You know, you had strings and harps and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No. What I heard was strictly coming from the symphonic end. And"}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 8, "text": "Did he do that? He's most famous for his Sinatra arrangements.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All those things from what I would - had come from the world, I had come from. And that the very first thing I heard that really made me believe what I was hearing was fantastic was a guy named Don Co"}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 9, "text": "Did you sing in falsetto?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And Teddy Randazzo was the writer. He and I think Weinstein (ph) - I believe that was his name. But I always remember Teddy Randazzo because I met him once, and that was the highlight of my life"}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, let's hear another record that you arranged. And you're talking about the classical influence on your music because you were brought up playing classical music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I'm a natural tenor. I don't have a falsetto. But I'm naturally high like that, so I hear high artists."}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 11, "text": "OK. So we're going to hear something from The Stylistics, which is another band that you worked with. And this is the early '70s we're talking..", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 12, "text": "A group. A band, right. Yeah. OK. So we're going to hear \"Betcha By Golly Wow,\" another song that you co-wrote. And this has a kind of long symphonic introduction. So before it we hear it, I want to ask you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A group."}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 13, "text": "Yeah. Did you think that this would be a good thing, a long symphonic introduction? Or did you think, well, the soul music crowd might get a little impatient while this introduction is playing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "How I came..."}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 14, "text": "She's a lyricist, so I was thinking it was her.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. It takes a nut to do something like that."}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 15, "text": "Did anyone say to you, those are corny expressions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, she was the best. That's one of the rare times she didn't write the lyric. I came up with it, and she looked at me like I was crazy. She said, Bell, you're nuts. And no one ever called Linda. We a"}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 16, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course. They - but over the years, I had learned never to let people hear my thoughts. It's like in \"The Godfather.\""}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My man told his son, hey, what's wrong with you? You never let people know your thoughts. Well, I had been called whacked in the head as a child."}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 18, "text": "Oh, you just heard music in your head.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And - now, they wanted me - the teachers wanted me - the principal of the school wanted my mother to take me to the psychiatrist because - here's this little kid; he hears music. And that's..."}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 19, "text": "And one more thing before we actually hear \"Betcha By Golly, Wow\" - is that an oboe in the beginning?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just heard it in my mind. And I'm singing and tapping on things. They thought something was wrong with me. So I had learned to keep all those kinds of thoughts, even to this day, to myself. And you "}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 20, "text": "OK, well, let's hear \"Betcha By Golly, Wow,\" co-written by my guest, Thom Bell. He also arranged it, produced it and conducted it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that's - let's see. Was that an oboe or was that cor anglais? (Humming). That was an oboe. A cor anglais is an English horn. I would use them interspersed - I would intersperse the two, depending"}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 21, "text": "OK, big hit from 1972. And this is The Stylistics.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 22, "text": "That's The Stylistics, and the song was co-written, produced, arranged and conducted by my guest, Thom Bell. You know, we talked about the oboe at the beginning there. What's the most unusual instruments that you've ever used?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) There's a spark of magic in your eyes. Candyland appears each time you smile. Never thought that fairy tales came true. But they come true when I'm near you. You're a genie in disguise - ooh"}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 23, "text": "Right, right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let me say this. Each instrument is designed for a specific kind of reaction that you're trying to get or a feeling that you're trying to relay. So when you say unusual, they all are unusual if you do"}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 24, "text": "When you take a group like The Stylistics into the studio, and you want them to get a sense of your concept for the sound of the record, how would you describe it to them? Would you sing them all their parts?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2006 interview with Thom Bell, one of the architects of the Philly sound. Before he joined Philadelphia International Records, he worked with The Delfonics"}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 25, "text": "Who - this was before or after he had his big hit, \"The Twist\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes."}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 26, "text": "This was after.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, this was after."}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 27, "text": "Oh, for Cameo Parkway?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not only did I conduct, I was a songwriter for his company"}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 28, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 29, "text": "Oh, for his own company?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, for his publishing company."}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 30, "text": "Yes, for Chubby's. He had Evans - I think it was Evans Music (ph) - Evansville (ph) - one of the two. And I made $29 a week as a writer for his company.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, for his publishing company."}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 31, "text": "Wow. Don't spend it all in one place.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, for his publishing company."}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 32, "text": "So what was your job working with Chubby Checker?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was scared."}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 33, "text": "And I think you were the house pianist for Cameo Parkway Records, which was a Philadelphia label that had a lot of hits with the help of getting played on Dick Clark's \"American Bandstand,\" which, like the record label, was in Philadelphia. Working as a house pianist for a record label, did you learn things not only that you wanted to do when you got into the studio, but things that you did not want to do? Did you learn some of the wrong ways as well as the right ways?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, I was a writer for his publishing company and also writing music for his - some of his shows and doing a lot of conducting for him."}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 34, "text": "Let's get to something that you're very well known for, which is your work for Philadelphia International Records, which creates what became known as the Philly sound, label created by Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff. And you were a key arranger in there. You met Gamble in a singing group - right? - in the Romeos? You sang with his...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What I did was - yes, I did. I learned. I watched. I watched the things that took a long time to do because things weren't prepared correctly. And I watched things that went smoothly because things we"}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 35, "text": "Before that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, I met him before that."}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 36, "text": "I see where you're going.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. My sister - I have a sister that was in his room in school at high school. And he happened - she happened to help him do his homework. At least that's what they said. I have a feeling..."}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 37, "text": "So when he started the record label, he asked you to work there, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he came in. And I was at the piano rehearsing. He said, hey, man, you play piano? Yes. He said, I write songs. I said, that's great. He said, my name is Kenny Gamble. You're who? Tommy Bell. That'"}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 38, "text": "Did you have different resources when you were working for Philadelphia International than you did before that? Did you have more money to produce things? Did you have a bigger orchestra at your disposal, different kind of rhythm section?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I was working for another company, Philly Groove Records with The Delfonics at the time. And I was leaving that situation because they were going in another direction, the company was. And I was "}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 39, "text": "When you think of the Philly sound, what comes to your mind?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Only you, care when I needed a friend. Believed in me through thick and thin. This song is for you, filled with gratitude and love. God bless you. You make me feel brand new. For God blessed"}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 40, "text": "That's cheating.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What comes to mind is cheesesteaks."}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 41, "text": "When you're asked to describe what the Philly sound means to you, can you break it down musically into something that you think is unique about those Philadelphia productions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And when I say cheesesteaks, I mean that there's only one place in the world that you can get a fantastic cheesesteak, and that's Philadelphia. And I don't care where you go. You can find the mom-and-"}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 42, "text": "I want to play what was one of the first big hits of Philadelphia International Records. And it's a record that you arranged. And it's The O'Jays \"Backstabbers,\" which has a very dramatic introduction. Talk about the introduction that you put together for this record.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You can break it down musically into different modes of chord structures, augmented and diminished, and major minor chords. Other cities were doing the same. They were doing - see, there are 88 keys o"}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 43, "text": "So what kind of mood did you want to hear and what kind of sound in that dramatic rendition?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When they gave me the track, the tracks were done. The rhythm tracks were done already. And some of those things, the guitar parts were in there, something like that. And what all I did was to broaden"}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 44, "text": "Grandiose.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Grandiose."}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 45, "text": "Well, it actually has a kind of action film sound to it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did - let's see. In the beginning, the strings were doing tremolandos and - the very beginning did a sweep, did a glissando with the harp. And, I mean, that grabbed you. Dun (ph) dun dun dun dun dun"}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 46, "text": "OK. Here's the O'Jays' \"Backstabbers,\" arranged by my guest, Thom Bell.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, backstabbing is action. When you talk about - you listen to the, smile on your face, all the time, they want to take your place, those backstabbers. That's mysterious, man. That's dangerous stu"}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 47, "text": "That's the O'Jays' big hit \"Backstabbers,\" a Philadelphia International Records hit, helped establish the record label. And my guest, Thom Bell, arranged that. And now you're associated with the Philly sound. You moved to Philadelphia when you were about 5. You were born and spent the first five years of your life in Jamaica.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) What they do? They're smiling in your face. All the time, they want to take your place, the backstabbers. Backstabbers. They're smiling in your face. All the time, they want to take your pla"}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 48, "text": "3 or 4? OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I was born in Kingston, Jamaica. But I was moved - my parents moved me here when I was about 3, 3 or 4 years of age."}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 49, "text": "So your parents were Jamaican.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 50, "text": "So did you feel culturally different when you were growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 51, "text": "Why was he worse?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, at times - at times because my mother talked funny. And my father, most people never saw my father because he used to work 12, 14 hours a day. Culturally, coming up - because I remember when the"}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 52, "text": "And he taught botany, didn't he?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He would wear the top hat and wear the long coats and the boutonniere, what you call a flower in the lapel. And, oh, man, oh, man, oh, man, he was a doozy. And guys would really laugh at him."}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 53, "text": "And what did your mother do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He was a botanist. He was a botanist and a horticulturist. He had two Ph. degrees."}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 54, "text": "So tell me - you know, you grew up. Your parents were Jamaican. You listened mostly to classical music until you were in your teens.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mother was - actually, she was an executive secretary to the - one of the principal people at the university. She could type, like, 140 words a minute on a manual typewriter. She does not like electri"}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 55, "text": "So when you started producing soul music and rhythm and blues, did you feel like you had just, like, a different frame of reference than the singers and musicians, particularly the singers that you were working with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yes."}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 56, "text": "Were you poor when you were growing up...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't know the difference. I didn't - I don't know the difference. And they might have known the difference. But they didn't talk about it. They didn't say, what is this? They didn't say that becau"}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 57, "text": "...Because it sounds like your mother had a really decent job?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 58, "text": "Let's get back to your production and songwriting work. I want to play something that you did with the Spinners. Now, they had their first Top 40 hit in 1961. But you were working with them in the '70s.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2006 interview with Thom Bell, one of the architects of the Philly sound. Before he joined Philadelphia International Records, Thom Bell worked with the De"}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 59, "text": "What state was their career in when you started to work with them? And how did you get matched up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 60, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Their career wasn't in great shape. At the time, I don't think the company that they were with - in fact, I know that the guy had gotten rid of them, or they had left. Somewhere along the line, they p"}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 61, "text": "Before we hear the Spinners, I have to ask you - this is the era where a lot of rhythm and blues groups are wearing orange jumpsuits and the big hats and the big hair with the big, bushy sideburns and gold medallions. And, you know, what'd you think of that? Did you ever dress that way? And what did you think of that as stage clothing? Did it work for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I called him and said, are these - is that - do you have the Spinners from Motown? They said, oh, yeah. We're getting ready to get rid of them. I said, please, whoa, don't get rid of them yet becau"}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 62, "text": "How could you not pay - it's so unmissable", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I never paid any attention to it. I never dressed..."}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 63, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I never paid any attention to it. I never dressed..."}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 64, "text": "It's been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mind - I'm a weird guy. My mind is on music all the time. And the things that most people see, I don't even see. I don't pay attention to it. I don't pay any attention to the shoes, the socks, the "}
{"id": "1003245978", "date": "2021-06-04", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "Celebrating 50 Years Of Philly Sound With Songwriter/Producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 65, "text": "That's right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you for asking me to come. It's been my pleasure coming back to Philadelphia and sitting with you guys. WHYY used to be at 46th and Market Street."}
{"id": "1004314674", "date": "2021-06-08", "guest": "Daisy Hernandez", "title": "'Kissing Bug' Tells A Personal Story About Race, Sexuality And A Deadly Insect", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Summer means mosquitoes, those vampires of the insect world. We're going to talk about another vampire insect that is probably less familiar to you. It's known as the kissing bug, which sounds kind of lovely, but it doesn't kiss. It bites and feeds on the victim's blood. Those bugs live in warm climates and are mostly found in South and Central America and Mexico. The bite can carry a parasite, which in some cases can lead to the destruction of the heart, esophagus or colon. My guest's aunt was a victim. Daisy Hernandez is the author of the new book \"The Kissing Bug: The True Story Of A Family, An Insect, And A Nation's Neglect Of A Deadly Disease\" (ph). Hernandez was raised in New Jersey by her mother, who's from Colombia, and her father, who's from Cuba. When Hernandez was 5, her aunt, who was living in Colombia, came down with a mysterious ailment that caused her large intestine to swell so much people assumed she was pregnant. The aunt's sisters flew her to New Jersey to care for her and get the medical help she needed. It was too late to completely stop the progression of the disease, which eventually killed her after many surgeries and years of suffering. Hernandez's new book is in part the history of the disease, a history that includes Charles Darwin, who may have had it, and a research experiment very similar to the notorious Tuskegee experiment. The book is also part-memoir, about growing up in an immigrant family and coming out as bisexual, which her aunt was never able to accept. Hernandez is a former New York Times reporter who writes about the intersections of race, immigration, class and sexuality. She's the author of a previous memoir called \"A Cup Of Water Under My Bed\" and is the co-editor of the book \"Colonize This! Young Women Of Color On Today's Feminism.\" Daisy Hernandez, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1004314674", "date": "2021-06-08", "guest": "Daisy Hernandez", "title": "'Kissing Bug' Tells A Personal Story About Race, Sexuality And A Deadly Insect", "question_index": 1, "text": "You know, I should start by saying I've seen the name of this disease written, but you should pronounce it so we all know how to say it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me."}
{"id": "1004314674", "date": "2021-06-08", "guest": "Daisy Hernandez", "title": "'Kissing Bug' Tells A Personal Story About Race, Sexuality And A Deadly Insect", "question_index": 2, "text": "And it's named after the doctor who discovered it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, the actual name is Chagas disease."}
{"id": "1004314674", "date": "2021-06-08", "guest": "Daisy Hernandez", "title": "'Kissing Bug' Tells A Personal Story About Race, Sexuality And A Deadly Insect", "question_index": 3, "text": "So your aunt got very sick when you were 5 or 6. You - she was flown to America by her sisters. She lived with you, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Dr. Carlos Chagas from Brazil, who discovered it in 1909."}
{"id": "1004314674", "date": "2021-06-08", "guest": "Daisy Hernandez", "title": "'Kissing Bug' Tells A Personal Story About Race, Sexuality And A Deadly Insect", "question_index": 4, "text": "So you grew up watching her be in and out of hospitals, be nauseous, be sick, be unable to eat. Her colon had swelled up. Her esophagus was becoming destroyed. How old were you when you learned that this was because she was bitten by a bug?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She did. Yeah, she did. It was quite a gamble at that point for her to come because doctors in Colombia had told her that she maybe had a year or two to live. They were not able to diagnose her with t"}
{"id": "1004314674", "date": "2021-06-08", "guest": "Daisy Hernandez", "title": "'Kissing Bug' Tells A Personal Story About Race, Sexuality And A Deadly Insect", "question_index": 5, "text": "So can you describe what the bug, what the kissing bug looks like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I learned about the kissing bug when I was probably around 12 or 13. And I think it was pretty horrifying, and it probably cemented my fear of insects for the rest of my life at that point. I also "}
{"id": "1004314674", "date": "2021-06-08", "guest": "Daisy Hernandez", "title": "'Kissing Bug' Tells A Personal Story About Race, Sexuality And A Deadly Insect", "question_index": 6, "text": "So the parasite that causes the destruction is transmitted by the kissing bug, but it's transmitted by the bug's feces, not by the bite itself. Could you describe this phenomenon?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, there are more than a hundred species of kissing bugs. It's about five of them that are very - considered to be very dangerous. And they vary in size but are around an inch long. And can - y"}
{"id": "1004314674", "date": "2021-06-08", "guest": "Daisy Hernandez", "title": "'Kissing Bug' Tells A Personal Story About Race, Sexuality And A Deadly Insect", "question_index": 7, "text": "By touching the bite and then rubbing their eye.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's a point of confusion. You know, we associate so much bug bites with the transmission of disease, but in this case, the kissing bug will bite a person, and then there's a lag time before the"}
{"id": "1004314674", "date": "2021-06-08", "guest": "Daisy Hernandez", "title": "'Kissing Bug' Tells A Personal Story About Race, Sexuality And A Deadly Insect", "question_index": 8, "text": "So most Americans, I think, have never heard of Chagas disease or of the kissing bug. How widespread a disease is this in the areas where the bug lives?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "1004314674", "date": "2021-06-08", "guest": "Daisy Hernandez", "title": "'Kissing Bug' Tells A Personal Story About Race, Sexuality And A Deadly Insect", "question_index": 9, "text": "Watching your aunt suffer, the unspoken rule was, like, you don't talk about it with her. Why wouldn't she talk about it? And what was it like for you to not be able to acknowledge the obvious thing that was in control of her life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's what was shocking to me because growing up, I thought it was an incredibly rare disease. We never met another family who knew about this disease or had a family member with this disease. So it "}
{"id": "1004314674", "date": "2021-06-08", "guest": "Daisy Hernandez", "title": "'Kissing Bug' Tells A Personal Story About Race, Sexuality And A Deadly Insect", "question_index": 10, "text": "Was she able to teach?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that a large part of why we didn't talk about it was that kind of intersection of immigration and public health. So my auntie came here in 1980 and was here in the '80s. So we were growing up,"}
{"id": "1004314674", "date": "2021-06-08", "guest": "Daisy Hernandez", "title": "'Kissing Bug' Tells A Personal Story About Race, Sexuality And A Deadly Insect", "question_index": 11, "text": "She managed to get good medical care. Your mother took her to Columbia Presbyterian Medical Center (ph) in Manhattan. Would she have been able to get that medical care today? She wasn't a citizen. The family didn't have money.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was. She did, actually. She ended up becoming a Spanish teacher in the Jersey City public school system and taught everyone from kindergartners to third- or fifth-graders Spanish, actually. And a "}
{"id": "1004314674", "date": "2021-06-08", "guest": "Daisy Hernandez", "title": "'Kissing Bug' Tells A Personal Story About Race, Sexuality And A Deadly Insect", "question_index": 12, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Daisy Hernandez, author of the new book \"The Kissing Bug: The True Story Of Family, An Insect, And A Nation's Neglect Of A Deadly Disease\" (ph). We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She would not have been able to receive that level of care today because of her citizenship status. She came on a tourist visa, and she stayed, so she was undocumented. I have no indication from any f"}
{"id": "1004314674", "date": "2021-06-08", "guest": "Daisy Hernandez", "title": "'Kissing Bug' Tells A Personal Story About Race, Sexuality And A Deadly Insect", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Daisy Hernandez. Her new book is called \"The Kissing Bug: A True Story Of Family, An Insect, And A Nation's Neglect Of A Deadly Disease\" (ph). Have the treatments for Chagas disease gotten any better than when your aunt had it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She would not have been able to receive that level of care today because of her citizenship status. She came on a tourist visa, and she stayed, so she was undocumented. I have no indication from any f"}
{"id": "1004314674", "date": "2021-06-08", "guest": "Daisy Hernandez", "title": "'Kissing Bug' Tells A Personal Story About Race, Sexuality And A Deadly Insect", "question_index": 14, "text": "During pregnancy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not yet, unfortunately. There are two treatments that are used for Chagas when it's in the acute stage. So that acute stage lasts for about two months after the bug bite. And if you're an adult, that'"}
{"id": "1004314674", "date": "2021-06-08", "guest": "Daisy Hernandez", "title": "'Kissing Bug' Tells A Personal Story About Race, Sexuality And A Deadly Insect", "question_index": 15, "text": "You write that Charles Darwin probably suffered from Chagas disease for years. Why have researchers or historians reached that conclusion or that hypothesis?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "During pregnancy can be transmitted from mother to child. And so when that baby is born, that baby can be treated with those medications and essentially be cured. The other thing that can happen is th"}
{"id": "1004314674", "date": "2021-06-08", "guest": "Daisy Hernandez", "title": "'Kissing Bug' Tells A Personal Story About Race, Sexuality And A Deadly Insect", "question_index": 16, "text": "One of the very disturbing things in the history of Chagas disease and the kissing bug is that in the 1940s, a very unethical research study similar to the Tuskegee syphilis study, the Tuskegee experiment, was conducted on a young Black man. And bugs were planted on him so that he could get the disease so that they could study it. Tell us a little bit about this experiment.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah. It's very much a hypothesis, and it can get controversial depending on who you talk to. Charles Darwin was in South America in the 1830s. He was a young man. And he ended up getting pretty"}
{"id": "1004314674", "date": "2021-06-08", "guest": "Daisy Hernandez", "title": "'Kissing Bug' Tells A Personal Story About Race, Sexuality And A Deadly Insect", "question_index": 17, "text": "And just to briefly explain part of the research, the insects pick up the parasite by feeding on an animal or a person who is already infected.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. This did happen in 1940. A researcher was actually sent to Texas to investigate possible cases of Chagas disease, and he was not able to find cases of the disease at that point. And what he ende"}
{"id": "1004314674", "date": "2021-06-08", "guest": "Daisy Hernandez", "title": "'Kissing Bug' Tells A Personal Story About Race, Sexuality And A Deadly Insect", "question_index": 18, "text": "So I had never heard of this experiment. It is very disturbing. How documented has it been? Is this this kind of, like, secret that you managed to uncover?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Yes, yes."}
{"id": "1004314674", "date": "2021-06-08", "guest": "Daisy Hernandez", "title": "'Kissing Bug' Tells A Personal Story About Race, Sexuality And A Deadly Insect", "question_index": 19, "text": "What makes this story so horrifying, too, is that this is somebody who likely had some kind of mental health issues because he was recruited for this study at a mental health hospital. And so you're already suffering from some kind of mental health issue, perhaps paranoia, and then somebody is putting this, like, deadly insect on your body to feed on you. I just - it's unimaginable.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it was mentioned in one book that looked at infectious diseases in the United States by the parasitologist Robert Desowitz. That's where I first heard the mention. And then I basically - I wanted "}
{"id": "1004314674", "date": "2021-06-08", "guest": "Daisy Hernandez", "title": "'Kissing Bug' Tells A Personal Story About Race, Sexuality And A Deadly Insect", "question_index": 20, "text": "Well, there's so much more to talk about here, but we have to take another break. So let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Daisy Hernandez. Her new book is called \"The Kissing Bug: A True Story Of Family, An Insect And A Nation's Neglect Of A Deadly Disease.\" We'll be back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And by 1940, what I was able to find is that a high number of patients were either suffering from what today we would call schizophrenia or bipolar. So it's exactly as you say. There was probabl"}
{"id": "1004314674", "date": "2021-06-08", "guest": "Daisy Hernandez", "title": "'Kissing Bug' Tells A Personal Story About Race, Sexuality And A Deadly Insect", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Daisy Hernandez, author of the new book \"The Kissing Bug: A True Story of Family, An Insect, And A Nation's Neglect Of A Deadly Disease.\" It's about the disease Chagas disease carried by the bloodsucking insect known as the kissing bug, which is found mostly in South and Central America and Mexico. This disease killed her aunt, who's from Colombia. The aunt lived with Hernandez and her parents for years while she was treated for the disease, which eventually killed her. The new book is both a history of Chagas disease and a memoir about growing up in an immigrant family, helping care for her aunt and coming out as bisexual, which her aunt was never able to accept. In the research that you did about Chagas disease - the disease caused by the parasite, carried by the kissing bug - and in your own experiences helping taking care of your aunt who had this disease from when she was living in Colombia and came in contact with one of these bugs, what did you learn about the kind of economic health divide, not only between people, say, in the U.S., but between countries?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And by 1940, what I was able to find is that a high number of patients were either suffering from what today we would call schizophrenia or bipolar. So it's exactly as you say. There was probabl"}
{"id": "1004314674", "date": "2021-06-08", "guest": "Daisy Hernandez", "title": "'Kissing Bug' Tells A Personal Story About Race, Sexuality And A Deadly Insect", "question_index": 22, "text": "And your mother used to go to a health fair for some of her health care needs and for her mammograms.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So this is a disease that disproportionately affects very poor people in Latin America, and that's usually folks who have spent time in rural areas where these insects are found. It really varie"}
{"id": "1004314674", "date": "2021-06-08", "guest": "Daisy Hernandez", "title": "'Kissing Bug' Tells A Personal Story About Race, Sexuality And A Deadly Insect", "question_index": 23, "text": "Your aunt, who had Chagas disease, lived with you when you were growing up. She was like a second mother to you, but you were in conflict much of the time. She didn't approve of you. And she didn't approve of you even before you came out as bisexual. What were the points of conflict?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, all the women in my family did. I grew up without health insurance. My mother and my father both worked in textile factories in New Jersey. This was back in the '80s and early '90s. And so those"}
{"id": "1004314674", "date": "2021-06-08", "guest": "Daisy Hernandez", "title": "'Kissing Bug' Tells A Personal Story About Race, Sexuality And A Deadly Insect", "question_index": 24, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think she - this is, of course, my version of the story."}
{"id": "1004314674", "date": "2021-06-08", "guest": "Daisy Hernandez", "title": "'Kissing Bug' Tells A Personal Story About Race, Sexuality And A Deadly Insect", "question_index": 25, "text": "And formal. That sounds very formal.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think she brought with her to United States ideals of what a proper Colombian child would be like and would behave like. And I was - I did not meet those ideals. I was very outspoken as a child. I d"}
{"id": "1004314674", "date": "2021-06-08", "guest": "Daisy Hernandez", "title": "'Kissing Bug' Tells A Personal Story About Race, Sexuality And A Deadly Insect", "question_index": 26, "text": "It sounds like she wanted to be very independent and to pursue a career, to be the first person in her family to go to college, but that she still insisted on the standards of girlhood, of traditional Colombian girlhood, of, you know, being, like, polite and learning how to pour coffee in the proper way and not talking back, being quiet.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And very formal, yes. Yes, very formal. And I was, you know, I was watching American TV shows. And the teenagers pouted and shot back. And I was in love with Madonna, you know. And I wanted to dress l"}
{"id": "1004314674", "date": "2021-06-08", "guest": "Daisy Hernandez", "title": "'Kissing Bug' Tells A Personal Story About Race, Sexuality And A Deadly Insect", "question_index": 27, "text": "Did she get that from TV", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. I think she herself, even though she never expressed it to me this way, I think she herself was a little bit in between both cultures as well, between what she wanted for herself and then "}
{"id": "1004314674", "date": "2021-06-08", "guest": "Daisy Hernandez", "title": "'Kissing Bug' Tells A Personal Story About Race, Sexuality And A Deadly Insect", "question_index": 28, "text": "- from TV in Columbia?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. I think she herself, even though she never expressed it to me this way, I think she herself was a little bit in between both cultures as well, between what she wanted for herself and then "}
{"id": "1004314674", "date": "2021-06-08", "guest": "Daisy Hernandez", "title": "'Kissing Bug' Tells A Personal Story About Race, Sexuality And A Deadly Insect", "question_index": 29, "text": "So I think I read this correctly, that in 2000 when you were filling out the census and - you had to put how you identify ethnically. Your mother urged you to write that you're white.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I actually suspect that it was probably from the infamous telenovelas, the soap soaps operas and I think from magazines, from women's magazines of that time period. And - yes - and fantasies of "}
{"id": "1004314674", "date": "2021-06-08", "guest": "Daisy Hernandez", "title": "'Kissing Bug' Tells A Personal Story About Race, Sexuality And A Deadly Insect", "question_index": 30, "text": "Can you talk about that and how you perceive it and how she perceives it and what that means?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mother - yeah, absolutely - she sees us all as being white."}
{"id": "1004314674", "date": "2021-06-08", "guest": "Daisy Hernandez", "title": "'Kissing Bug' Tells A Personal Story About Race, Sexuality And A Deadly Insect", "question_index": 31, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Daisy Hernandez. Her new book is called \"The Kissing Bug: The True Story Of Family, An Insect And A Nation's Neglect Of A Deadly Disease.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "with the saliva. And what was really shocking for me was I expected to turn up Indigenous. I expected that my mother would as well. I grew up often being told - and this is something that my auntie of"}
{"id": "1004314674", "date": "2021-06-08", "guest": "Daisy Hernandez", "title": "'Kissing Bug' Tells A Personal Story About Race, Sexuality And A Deadly Insect", "question_index": 32, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Daisy Hernandez, author of the new book \"The Kissing Bug: A True Story Of Family, An Insect And A Nation's Neglect Of A Deadly Disease.\" The book is both a history of Chagas disease, which is spread by the insect known as the kissing bug, and it's a memoir about growing up in an immigrant family, helping care for her aunt who had the disease and coming out as bisexual, which her aunt was unable to accept. You came out as bisexual to your family when you were 25. Your parents handled it OK, but your aunt did not. What was her reaction?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "with the saliva. And what was really shocking for me was I expected to turn up Indigenous. I expected that my mother would as well. I grew up often being told - and this is something that my auntie of"}
{"id": "1004314674", "date": "2021-06-08", "guest": "Daisy Hernandez", "title": "'Kissing Bug' Tells A Personal Story About Race, Sexuality And A Deadly Insect", "question_index": 33, "text": "Oh, that's a really long time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She actually stopped talking to me. We didn't speak for about seven years. I..."}
{"id": "1004314674", "date": "2021-06-08", "guest": "Daisy Hernandez", "title": "'Kissing Bug' Tells A Personal Story About Race, Sexuality And A Deadly Insect", "question_index": 34, "text": "You took care of her at the end of her life. You were in the hospital with her pretty constantly toward the end of her life. And I'm trying to understand what you must have been feeling since she didn't speak to you for seven years and she sent back your gifts. What was your relationship like with her at the end?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a very long time, yes. Yeah, it's a very long time. And it was difficult because, you know, I've described it in my other book. I described it as being a kind of death because there was no connec"}
{"id": "1004314674", "date": "2021-06-08", "guest": "Daisy Hernandez", "title": "'Kissing Bug' Tells A Personal Story About Race, Sexuality And A Deadly Insect", "question_index": 35, "text": "Were you more accepting of her lack of comprehension of gender fluidity and sexual orientation, knowing the background that she was from and how she was raised?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was actually quite beautiful. I think that I changed a lot in those seven years. I stopped needing her approval. I think I came to a place of acceptance that she was not going to accept who I was. "}
{"id": "1004314674", "date": "2021-06-08", "guest": "Daisy Hernandez", "title": "'Kissing Bug' Tells A Personal Story About Race, Sexuality And A Deadly Insect", "question_index": 36, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Daisy Hernandez. Her new book is called \"The Kissing Bug: A True Story of Family, An Insect And A Nation's Neglect Of A Deadly Disease.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think that definitely made a difference. I think that - I think - although to be honest with you, I think a lot of what made a difference was, you know, having - creating my own chosen family "}
{"id": "1004314674", "date": "2021-06-08", "guest": "Daisy Hernandez", "title": "'Kissing Bug' Tells A Personal Story About Race, Sexuality And A Deadly Insect", "question_index": 37, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Daisy Hernandez, author of the new book \"The Kissing Bug: A True Story Of Family, An Insect, And A Nation's Neglect Of A Deadly Disease.\" The book is both a history of Chagas disease, which is spread by the insect known as the kissing bug, and it's a memoir about growing up in an immigrant family, helping care for her aunt who had the disease and coming out as bisexual, which her aunt was unable to accept. Can you talk about some of the generational differences in the Latino community over sexuality and gender?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think that definitely made a difference. I think that - I think - although to be honest with you, I think a lot of what made a difference was, you know, having - creating my own chosen family "}
{"id": "1004314674", "date": "2021-06-08", "guest": "Daisy Hernandez", "title": "'Kissing Bug' Tells A Personal Story About Race, Sexuality And A Deadly Insect", "question_index": 38, "text": "Was that a way of saying - of your mother saying to herself, it wasn't my fault? It's not my daughter's fault. It's America's fault.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So I had to take a moment to make sure that she was OK. And when she finally regained her composure, my mother said to me, oh, this doesn't happen in Colombia. And I said, Mommy, there's queer peopl"}
{"id": "1004314674", "date": "2021-06-08", "guest": "Daisy Hernandez", "title": "'Kissing Bug' Tells A Personal Story About Race, Sexuality And A Deadly Insect", "question_index": 39, "text": "Well, another thing that I think is very new is the use of the word Latinx, which is a gender-neutral nonbinary word that's been adopted by, you know, I think mostly younger people and people who are, like, gender queer. And so I'm interested in hearing about how you use that versus Latina or Latino or Hispanic, for that matter, and what kind of - like, what kind of reaction you get from people who are Latino and aren't so aware of the word or are resistant to a new word and think that the language is already adequate?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "was very taboo. So the idea that I would - you know, I would not only identify as bisexual but that I would write about it, that I would speak about it publicly I think was multiple shocks from my mot"}
{"id": "1004314674", "date": "2021-06-08", "guest": "Daisy Hernandez", "title": "'Kissing Bug' Tells A Personal Story About Race, Sexuality And A Deadly Insect", "question_index": 40, "text": "You know, it's funny because like, you know, French and Spanish, they're gendered languages. Like, table was a gender, and window as a gender. You know, like, all these inanimate objects have have genders. I found that very confusing when I was trying to learn French in school because, how are you supposed to remember what gender a table is, whether it's a leau (ph) or a la (ph)? And so I don't know. How do you deal with gender in languages where gender applies to objects that aren't even alive?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, and it's true. This can actually be very generational as well. I love using the word Latinx because I'm so happy to have a word that does away with referring to that kind of binary system of fem"}
{"id": "1004314674", "date": "2021-06-08", "guest": "Daisy Hernandez", "title": "'Kissing Bug' Tells A Personal Story About Race, Sexuality And A Deadly Insect", "question_index": 41, "text": "Well, Daisy Hernandez, it's really been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a great question. I actually had a similar experience. I mean, I grew up speaking Spanish at home, but I would get the genders wrong. The one I remember is map. I would always la mapa (ph) and "}
{"id": "1004314674", "date": "2021-06-08", "guest": "Daisy Hernandez", "title": "'Kissing Bug' Tells A Personal Story About Race, Sexuality And A Deadly Insect", "question_index": 42, "text": "Daisy Hernandez is the author of the new memoir \"The Kissing Bug.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll talk about the early years of the U.S. space program with historian Jeff Shesol. In his new book, \"Mercury Rising,\" he writes about how American rockets were blowing up in test flights while Soviet satellites and cosmonauts soared through the heavens. He also describes the conflicts among America's first astronauts, in part over their personal conduct. I hope you'll join us. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with assistance today Charlie Kaier. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley, Kayla Lattimore and Joel Wolfram. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1005093802", "date": "2021-06-10", "guest": "Michael Schwirtz", "title": "Inner Workings Of DarkSide Cybergang Reveal It's Run Like Any Other Business", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Ransomware attacks have disrupted the flow of gas and the supply of meat in just the past few weeks after Colonial Pipeline and JBS, the meat processing company, had their computer systems held hostage for ransom. Similar ransomware attacks have been waged on many companies, large and small, and on hospitals, the police and cities. My guest got an inside look at how the new breed of ransomware attackers operate. Michael Schwirtz is an investigative reporter at The New York Times who gained access to secret communications from the cybercriminal operation DarkSide that attacked Colonial Pipeline. These communications offered what he described as an extraordinary glimpse into the internal workings of a Russian-speaking gang that had become the face of global cybercrime. DarkSide pulled in millions of dollars in ransom payments each month after. They were outed as the attackers of Colonial Pipeline, they went dark. Schwirtz has also reported on the company that attacked JBS, which is called REvil - R-E-V-I-L. These cybercriminals and many others are believed to be operating from Russia. Schwirtz worked in The New York Times' Russia bureau from 2006 to 2012. Last year, he was a lead reporter on the team that won a Pulitzer Prize for a series of articles about Russian intelligence operations around the world. We recorded our interview yesterday morning. Michael Schwirtz, welcome to FRESH AIR. The inner workings of ransomware that you found out were fascinating. Let's start with what you learned the victim sees on the screen when DarkSide captures the computer system.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1005093802", "date": "2021-06-10", "guest": "Michael Schwirtz", "title": "Inner Workings Of DarkSide Cybergang Reveal It's Run Like Any Other Business", "question_index": 1, "text": "And it not only locks victims out of computer systems. The hackers can steal proprietary data.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. When the ransomware is uploaded into a victim's computer system, the first thing they see is a ransom note. It says at the top, welcome to DarkSide. And it contains a list of instructions on ho"}
{"id": "1005093802", "date": "2021-06-10", "guest": "Michael Schwirtz", "title": "Inner Workings Of DarkSide Cybergang Reveal It's Run Like Any Other Business", "question_index": 2, "text": "Now, the ransom is paid and cryptocurrency like Bitcoin. Most people don't know how to use Bitcoin. So DarkSide actually has, like, a helpdesk to help the victims pay the ransom.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And this is basically to put added pressure on the business. Not only does the victim risk losing access to important computer files that may be necessary for the day-to-day running of the busi"}
{"id": "1005093802", "date": "2021-06-10", "guest": "Michael Schwirtz", "title": "Inner Workings Of DarkSide Cybergang Reveal It's Run Like Any Other Business", "question_index": 3, "text": "Great", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. It's a really user-friendly experience. There's a helpdesk like any other..."}
{"id": "1005093802", "date": "2021-06-10", "guest": "Michael Schwirtz", "title": "Inner Workings Of DarkSide Cybergang Reveal It's Run Like Any Other Business", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. It's a really user-friendly experience. There's a helpdesk like any other..."}
{"id": "1005093802", "date": "2021-06-10", "guest": "Michael Schwirtz", "title": "Inner Workings Of DarkSide Cybergang Reveal It's Run Like Any Other Business", "question_index": 5, "text": "DarkSide is a cybercriminal gang, but it's set up like a business with affiliates. What are the affiliates?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know, when your internet goes out, you contact your internet service provider. And sometimes there's a chat. It's a very similar service. And it's the goal of these hackers to make this as simp"}
{"id": "1005093802", "date": "2021-06-10", "guest": "Michael Schwirtz", "title": "Inner Workings Of DarkSide Cybergang Reveal It's Run Like Any Other Business", "question_index": 6, "text": "What's the profit model for both DarkSide and for the affiliate it's working with? For example, Colonial Pipeline was told to pay $4.5 million to get access again to its computer system. Colonial Pipeline paid the $4.5 million. How is that divided between DarkSide and the affiliate that actually did the hack?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What DarkSide does is they're a ransomware creator. So they create the program that is uploaded into a victim's computer system that locks down their data. But what they do is they basically contract "}
{"id": "1005093802", "date": "2021-06-10", "guest": "Michael Schwirtz", "title": "Inner Workings Of DarkSide Cybergang Reveal It's Run Like Any Other Business", "question_index": 7, "text": "So do these different ransomware groups compete with each other? Do they advertise to affiliates that want to work with a group that actually has the malware that they need?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So DarkSide takes a cut. And so the way it worked with DarkSide, which I am told is fairly generous, if the ransom that was charged that was eventually obtained was less $500,000, DarkSide would take "}
{"id": "1005093802", "date": "2021-06-10", "guest": "Michael Schwirtz", "title": "Inner Workings Of DarkSide Cybergang Reveal It's Run Like Any Other Business", "question_index": 8, "text": "So you got access to the DarkSide dashboard. Explain what a dashboard is for people who don't know and what you saw on it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They do, because it's a symbiotic relationship with these affiliates. You know, they can work - DarkSide can work with dozens of affiliates who are working round the clock trying to find vulnerabiliti"}
{"id": "1005093802", "date": "2021-06-10", "guest": "Michael Schwirtz", "title": "Inner Workings Of DarkSide Cybergang Reveal It's Run Like Any Other Business", "question_index": 9, "text": "What insights did seeing the dashboard give you about the operation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the dashboard is is sort of the interface that is used both by DarkSide developers themselves and by the affiliates. And so what I got access to was the affiliate dashboard. And from there, you can"}
{"id": "1005093802", "date": "2021-06-10", "guest": "Michael Schwirtz", "title": "Inner Workings Of DarkSide Cybergang Reveal It's Run Like Any Other Business", "question_index": 10, "text": "You make contact with a customer support employee. It sounds so legit. So what was the communication?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One thing that I think was the most striking was just how mundane it is. It was like entering into any other sort of company's computer systems. It was - there was a news ticker. There were press rele"}
{"id": "1005093802", "date": "2021-06-10", "guest": "Michael Schwirtz", "title": "Inner Workings Of DarkSide Cybergang Reveal It's Run Like Any Other Business", "question_index": 11, "text": "Was that the response you were expecting when you identified yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "After I had spent some time exploring the dashboard, I decided that I was going to reach out to the customer support office at DarkSide. And it's a very simple thing to do. It's a similar interface to"}
{"id": "1005093802", "date": "2021-06-10", "guest": "Michael Schwirtz", "title": "Inner Workings Of DarkSide Cybergang Reveal It's Run Like Any Other Business", "question_index": 12, "text": "A lot of reporters would have just entered under a false identity, gone in undercover, so to speak. What is The New York Times' rule surrounding that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was. It was. I had a small sliver of hope that I might be able to engage with somebody from DarkSide for a bit longer. But that was definitely the odds-on reaction that I was expecting."}
{"id": "1005093802", "date": "2021-06-10", "guest": "Michael Schwirtz", "title": "Inner Workings Of DarkSide Cybergang Reveal It's Run Like Any Other Business", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well, we need to take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more and pick up where we left off. If you're just joining us, my guest is New York Times investigative reporter Michael Schwirtz. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ethically, we're not allowed to go undercover. And as a rule, I always introduce myself as a Times reporter first so that nobody's under any illusion about who I am and what I want. And so while going"}
{"id": "1005093802", "date": "2021-06-10", "guest": "Michael Schwirtz", "title": "Inner Workings Of DarkSide Cybergang Reveal It's Run Like Any Other Business", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with New York Times investigative reporter Michael Schwirtz about ransomware attacks and how the attackers operate. He gained access to secret communications from the cybercriminal operation DarkSide that attacked Colonial Pipeline. He's also written about how REvil operates. That's the cybergang behind the ransomware attack on JBS, the giant meat processing company. So you not only managed to get a momentary chat", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ethically, we're not allowed to go undercover. And as a rule, I always introduce myself as a Times reporter first so that nobody's under any illusion about who I am and what I want. And so while going"}
{"id": "1005093802", "date": "2021-06-10", "guest": "Michael Schwirtz", "title": "Inner Workings Of DarkSide Cybergang Reveal It's Run Like Any Other Business", "question_index": 15, "text": "with basically somebody from customer support, you got access to some secret communications from DarkSide. What were some of these communications?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ethically, we're not allowed to go undercover. And as a rule, I always introduce myself as a Times reporter first so that nobody's under any illusion about who I am and what I want. And so while going"}
{"id": "1005093802", "date": "2021-06-10", "guest": "Michael Schwirtz", "title": "Inner Workings Of DarkSide Cybergang Reveal It's Run Like Any Other Business", "question_index": 16, "text": "So this isn't a big corporate publishing company we're talking about. It was a family-run company. And for this company, 1.7 million was a lot. So what were the threats against them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct. Well, the communications were saved, essentially, within the chat system on the dashboard. And so this individual, Woris, was the affiliate, had been communicating throughout probably since a"}
{"id": "1005093802", "date": "2021-06-10", "guest": "Michael Schwirtz", "title": "Inner Workings Of DarkSide Cybergang Reveal It's Run Like Any Other Business", "question_index": 17, "text": "In one of the conversations between DarkSide and Woris, Woris was laughing about the pedophile threat. And Woris, whoever that is - or whoever the group is wrote, I laughed to the depth of my soul about the leaked IDs possibly being used by pedophiles to enter the school. I didn't think it would scare them that much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was a number of threats that they had come up with, and it's unclear to me how many of these were implemented. There were - one of the earliest threats that they had discussed was essentially tr"}
{"id": "1005093802", "date": "2021-06-10", "guest": "Michael Schwirtz", "title": "Inner Workings Of DarkSide Cybergang Reveal It's Run Like Any Other Business", "question_index": 18, "text": "Does DarkSide and the affiliate that it's working with to do the ransomware attack, do they collaborate on what the threats should be and how they should be expressed to the victim?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And I think this company, you know, for good reason, was really spooked that, one, proprietary information about clients would get out. This could, perhaps, be a threat to them. But also, this "}
{"id": "1005093802", "date": "2021-06-10", "guest": "Michael Schwirtz", "title": "Inner Workings Of DarkSide Cybergang Reveal It's Run Like Any Other Business", "question_index": 19, "text": "So how did the publishing company that was - that had its computer system held hostage by Woris and DarkSide, how did the company handle it? I know the company negotiated. Who do they negotiate with? And what do you know about how the negotiations went?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They do. At several points in the chat, it becomes clear that Woris is the one writing communications that they want sent to the victims. So they write a letter that is supposed to be addressed to cli"}
{"id": "1005093802", "date": "2021-06-10", "guest": "Michael Schwirtz", "title": "Inner Workings Of DarkSide Cybergang Reveal It's Run Like Any Other Business", "question_index": 20, "text": "Because they're Russian-speaking, the cybergangs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They negotiated directly with DarkSide. So as I explained early on, they would have received this letter, a ransom note, giving them instructions on how to contact DarkSide and begin these negotiation"}
{"id": "1005093802", "date": "2021-06-10", "guest": "Michael Schwirtz", "title": "Inner Workings Of DarkSide Cybergang Reveal It's Run Like Any Other Business", "question_index": 21, "text": "So during the months of negotiation, was this publishing company locked out of its own system? And if so, how did it function? You might not know the answer to that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They're Russian-speaking. It's interesting to me that there were not better English speakers that could be utilized for this purpose. But when you look at some of the communications between the DarkSi"}
{"id": "1005093802", "date": "2021-06-10", "guest": "Michael Schwirtz", "title": "Inner Workings Of DarkSide Cybergang Reveal It's Run Like Any Other Business", "question_index": 22, "text": "Do you think that the publishing company negotiated a long time to stall so that the FBI could continue to investigate who was behind the attack?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "According to the company - and I've communicated with them - they were locked out of their information for a while. And it was pretty damaging to their business. They wouldn't go specifically into sor"}
{"id": "1005093802", "date": "2021-06-10", "guest": "Michael Schwirtz", "title": "Inner Workings Of DarkSide Cybergang Reveal It's Run Like Any Other Business", "question_index": 23, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is New York Times investigative reporter Michael Schwirtz. We'll talk more about ransomware attacks and who the attackers are after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was some indication that that was the case. And I don't - I'm not privy to details about the federal investigation into the case. But, yeah, there is some indication that the company was trying "}
{"id": "1005093802", "date": "2021-06-10", "guest": "Michael Schwirtz", "title": "Inner Workings Of DarkSide Cybergang Reveal It's Run Like Any Other Business", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with New York Times investigative reporter Michael Schwirtz. He's been writing about ransomware attacks and how the attackers operate. He gained access to secret communications from the cybercriminal operation DarkSide that attacked Colonial Pipeline. These communications offered what he describes as an extraordinary glimpse into the internal workings of a Russian-speaking gang that had become the face of global cybercrime. He's also written about how REvil operates - that spelt R-E-V-I-L. That's the cybergang behind the ransomware attack on JBS, the giant meat processing company. Let's talk about the Colonial Pipeline hack. Colonial Pipeline paid the ransom. The CEO says he thought it was in the best interest of the country to make sure that the oil kept flowing because this is a pipeline that supplies much of the East Coast. So they paid - and I think they paid pretty quickly. So was this attack against Colonial Pipeline through an affiliate of DarkSide?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was some indication that that was the case. And I don't - I'm not privy to details about the federal investigation into the case. But, yeah, there is some indication that the company was trying "}
{"id": "1005093802", "date": "2021-06-10", "guest": "Michael Schwirtz", "title": "Inner Workings Of DarkSide Cybergang Reveal It's Run Like Any Other Business", "question_index": 25, "text": "Do you have any idea what the negotiations were like between the affiliate and Colonial Pipeline?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That's how it would have worked. I don't know that we have a lot of details about the affiliate in this case, but it would have been likely an affiliate using DarkSide's ransomware in the same w"}
{"id": "1005093802", "date": "2021-06-10", "guest": "Michael Schwirtz", "title": "Inner Workings Of DarkSide Cybergang Reveal It's Run Like Any Other Business", "question_index": 26, "text": "You know, authorities often warn that you should not pay ransomware attackers, because even if you pay, they might still not free up your computer system. Do they offer any guarantee? Does DarkSide have any ethics about actually following through on its word that if you pay the ransom, you'll get your intact computer system again?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do not know, but it seemed to have happened very, very quickly. The CEO of Colonial testified this week that the ransom was paid even before the FBI was contacted to inform them about the ransomware"}
{"id": "1005093802", "date": "2021-06-10", "guest": "Michael Schwirtz", "title": "Inner Workings Of DarkSide Cybergang Reveal It's Run Like Any Other Business", "question_index": 27, "text": "My understanding is that the CEO of Colonial Pipeline did not communicate with the FBI until after the ransom was paid, but the FBI did eventually manage very recently to get access to a Bitcoin wallet that was used by Colonial Pipeline to pay the ransomware attacker. What do you know about how the FBI was able to do that or what that even means? Most of us don't really understand cryptocurrency talk, so if you can explain what happened.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The whole ransomware industry depends on a kind of honor system. And so it is very much in the interest of the ransomware companies to pay. If it gets out there that there's a ransomware criminal gang"}
{"id": "1005093802", "date": "2021-06-10", "guest": "Michael Schwirtz", "title": "Inner Workings Of DarkSide Cybergang Reveal It's Run Like Any Other Business", "question_index": 28, "text": "So my understanding is that the affiliate of DarkSide didn't get paid, but DarkSide managed to keep their money because it was only the wallet from the affiliate that was hacked.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And this was a really big deal because I think it's, you know, the first or at least the first major effort by the FBI to really go after one of these, you know, largely virtual ransomware game"}
{"id": "1005093802", "date": "2021-06-10", "guest": "Michael Schwirtz", "title": "Inner Workings Of DarkSide Cybergang Reveal It's Run Like Any Other Business", "question_index": 29, "text": "Let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is New York Times investigative reporter Michael Schwirtz. We'll talk more about ransomware attacks after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It appears that DarkSide managed to keep its money, but that that much is not clear either. Shortly after the Colonial Pipeline attack, DarkSide came under what it said were threats coming from the Un"}
{"id": "1005093802", "date": "2021-06-10", "guest": "Michael Schwirtz", "title": "Inner Workings Of DarkSide Cybergang Reveal It's Run Like Any Other Business", "question_index": 30, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with New York Times investigative reporter Michael Schwirtz about ransomware attacks and how the attackers operate. He gained access to secret communications from the cybercriminal operation DarkSide that attacked Colonial Pipeline. So DarkSide went dark. What does it mean that DarkSide went dark? Does it mean they disappear, or maybe they're just kind of creating another iteration of the group with, you know, with different - I don't even know the language - different passwords or encryption or whatever?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It appears that DarkSide managed to keep its money, but that that much is not clear either. Shortly after the Colonial Pipeline attack, DarkSide came under what it said were threats coming from the Un"}
{"id": "1005093802", "date": "2021-06-10", "guest": "Michael Schwirtz", "title": "Inner Workings Of DarkSide Cybergang Reveal It's Run Like Any Other Business", "question_index": 31, "text": "So how big of a victory do you think the FBI actually scored against DarkSide in particular and ransomware hackers in general?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, a different - I mean, just a rebranding exercise. That's possibly what it was. The timeline of the shutdown is unclear. So shortly after DarkSide was identified by the U.S. government as being"}
{"id": "1005093802", "date": "2021-06-10", "guest": "Michael Schwirtz", "title": "Inner Workings Of DarkSide Cybergang Reveal It's Run Like Any Other Business", "question_index": 32, "text": "So what's the understanding of what kind of case would cross the line? And do groups like DarkSide or REvil have a code about who is off-limits?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's hard to say right now, but I think it'll be interesting to see what the reaction is to the FBI's going in and retaking some of this ransom that Colonial Pipeline paid. It basically sends "}
{"id": "1005093802", "date": "2021-06-10", "guest": "Michael Schwirtz", "title": "Inner Workings Of DarkSide Cybergang Reveal It's Run Like Any Other Business", "question_index": 33, "text": "One of the things - perhaps the main thing that has made these ransomware attacks possible is cryptocurrency, digital currency like Bitcoin. And most of us don't really understand how this works. But can you explain a little bit about why cryptocurrency has allowed these ransomware attacks to flourish?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what was special about the Colonial Pipeline attack was that it was a company that was involved in critical infrastructure. This company had customers going from Texas to New York. And shutting "}
{"id": "1005093802", "date": "2021-06-10", "guest": "Michael Schwirtz", "title": "Inner Workings Of DarkSide Cybergang Reveal It's Run Like Any Other Business", "question_index": 34, "text": "So - you know, we were talking about DarkSide. You've also looked into REvil, which is another ransomware group that works with affiliates. The affiliates actually do the hacking of the group and ask for the ransom. But they do it with the help of REvil or DarkSide or whoever the malware originator is. So can you compare REvil and DarkSide or compare the attack on JBS to the attack on Colonial Pipeline just to show what these groups have in common and what the differences are?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One of the major features of cryptocurrency is that you can be anonymous. You're not handing over your banking information, right? You are transferring money into an anonymized wallet, essentially a d"}
{"id": "1005093802", "date": "2021-06-10", "guest": "Michael Schwirtz", "title": "Inner Workings Of DarkSide Cybergang Reveal It's Run Like Any Other Business", "question_index": 35, "text": "Let me reintroduce you if you're just joining us. My guest is New York Times investigative reporter Michael Schwirtz. We'll talk more about ransomware attacks after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it's hard to compare and contrast. DarkSide is, perhaps, according to some cybersecurity researchers - the members of DarkSide of, the members that created DarkSide were, perhaps, affiliates o"}
{"id": "1005093802", "date": "2021-06-10", "guest": "Michael Schwirtz", "title": "Inner Workings Of DarkSide Cybergang Reveal It's Run Like Any Other Business", "question_index": 36, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with New York Times investigative reporter Michael Schwirtz about ransomware attacks and how the attackers operate. So REvil and DarkSide are based in Russia, as are many other cybercriminal gangs. Why is Russia such a hub for cybercriminals?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it's hard to compare and contrast. DarkSide is, perhaps, according to some cybersecurity researchers - the members of DarkSide of, the members that created DarkSide were, perhaps, affiliates o"}
{"id": "1005093802", "date": "2021-06-10", "guest": "Michael Schwirtz", "title": "Inner Workings Of DarkSide Cybergang Reveal It's Run Like Any Other Business", "question_index": 37, "text": "How do they get away with it in Russia?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There are a number of reasons for this. First, you know, the education system that focuses on math and science is very, very robust. But there are countries with robust, you know, computer science cul"}
{"id": "1005093802", "date": "2021-06-10", "guest": "Michael Schwirtz", "title": "Inner Workings Of DarkSide Cybergang Reveal It's Run Like Any Other Business", "question_index": 38, "text": "With so many Russian cybergangs attacking computer systems in America and other places around the world, do we know if Russian intelligence is cooperating with them, helping them in any way, and if Putin sees this as a kind of way of flexing his muscles without having any fingerprints on it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's a simple answer - there's a simple and more complicated answer to that. The simple answer is that the Russian government has, basically, taken the stance that if none of these individuals are "}
{"id": "1005093802", "date": "2021-06-10", "guest": "Michael Schwirtz", "title": "Inner Workings Of DarkSide Cybergang Reveal It's Run Like Any Other Business", "question_index": 39, "text": "President Biden is meeting with Putin next week. Do you assume that ransomware is going to come up in the conversation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And there's a number of different ways that I think the Russian government and the intelligence services are involved. I don't think that every single attack has a Russian intelligence or law enforcem"}
{"id": "1005093802", "date": "2021-06-10", "guest": "Michael Schwirtz", "title": "Inner Workings Of DarkSide Cybergang Reveal It's Run Like Any Other Business", "question_index": 40, "text": "So these cybergangs, this ransomware, this is like criminal activity. Even if the Russian intelligence is collaborating with them in some way, it's not official. And I don't know if the U.S. could prove that Russian intelligence is working with them at all. So can Biden use something like the military Cyber Command to go after the ransomware attackers, or would that be considered an inappropriate use of the military because it's a criminal action?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's definitely going to come up in the conversation. I think the Biden administration has made that clear. The real question is what the United States can do about it. The United States has leveled s"}
{"id": "1005093802", "date": "2021-06-10", "guest": "Michael Schwirtz", "title": "Inner Workings Of DarkSide Cybergang Reveal It's Run Like Any Other Business", "question_index": 41, "text": "Well, Michael Schwirtz, I want to thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. This is the sort of gray area that we find ourselves in. I think the administration is pretty reticent to use the military, like you said, to be - for involvement in what is generally considere"}
{"id": "1005093802", "date": "2021-06-10", "guest": "Michael Schwirtz", "title": "Inner Workings Of DarkSide Cybergang Reveal It's Run Like Any Other Business", "question_index": 42, "text": "Michael Schwirtz is an investigative reporter for The New York Times. If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, like this week's interview with Rita Moreno about the ethnic stereotyping and sexual harassment she faced in Hollywood and her tumultuous relationship with Marlon Brando, check out our website. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I really appreciate it. It's been an honor. Thank you."}
{"id": "1005093802", "date": "2021-06-10", "guest": "Michael Schwirtz", "title": "Inner Workings Of DarkSide Cybergang Reveal It's Run Like Any Other Business", "question_index": 43, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley, Kayla Lattimore and Joe Wolfram. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I really appreciate it. It's been an honor. Thank you."}
{"id": "1005376859", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Clarence Williams Iii", "title": "Remembering 'Mod Squad' Actor Clarence Williams III", "question_index": 0, "text": "Now, I read that you grew up over a funeral parlor, yes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Mr. Simms) Oh, they say he went crazy. Death - it comes in many strange packages."}
{"id": "1005376859", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Clarence Williams Iii", "title": "Remembering 'Mod Squad' Actor Clarence Williams III", "question_index": 1, "text": "Were you impressionable and superstitious?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so it was it was my first encounter with Gray's anatomy without having \"Gray's Anatomy.\""}
{"id": "1005376859", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Clarence Williams Iii", "title": "Remembering 'Mod Squad' Actor Clarence Williams III", "question_index": 2, "text": "So when you were young, though, you were constantly exposed to other people's tragedies.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not at all. Not at all. And I don't know why. You know, it's true - it's an interesting question. I never really thought about it. I mean, it's sort of like that's where I lived, and so it was normal."}
{"id": "1005376859", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Clarence Williams Iii", "title": "Remembering 'Mod Squad' Actor Clarence Williams III", "question_index": 3, "text": "Did you ever go with her to Rikers Island?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no, not really, because, I mean, I didn't spend my time around it. And also, interestingly, my grandmother played the organ for church services at the prison on Rikers Island in New York City - "}
{"id": "1005376859", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Clarence Williams Iii", "title": "Remembering 'Mod Squad' Actor Clarence Williams III", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And she's going to distribute this stuff to these people. And obviously, she was a fixture going in and out of the place, so she's never searched or anything like that. But she presents the stuff to t"}
{"id": "1005376859", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Clarence Williams Iii", "title": "Remembering 'Mod Squad' Actor Clarence Williams III", "question_index": 5, "text": "Clarence Williams is my guest. So how old were you when you started to think about acting, and what made you start to think about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And the guard looks at this bag, and he says, Mrs. Williams, these are narcotics. We don't allow that stuff in here. And that's the kind of lady she was. I mean, one of the grand things that she did f"}
{"id": "1005376859", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Clarence Williams Iii", "title": "Remembering 'Mod Squad' Actor Clarence Williams III", "question_index": 6, "text": "So you started studying theater.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It started quite accidentally. I was out of - I was way out of high school. I was maybe two years - not way out of, but about two years out of high school. And I was working here in New York at Grey a"}
{"id": "1005376859", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Clarence Williams Iii", "title": "Remembering 'Mod Squad' Actor Clarence Williams III", "question_index": 7, "text": "As a young African American actor, did you think that you would end up building your career in the Black theater?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1005376859", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Clarence Williams Iii", "title": "Remembering 'Mod Squad' Actor Clarence Williams III", "question_index": 8, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'd never really worked in the Black theater, and I was never a member of the Negro Ensemble Company and all that, so maybe I should fast-forward then. So I started - and so I went, and I auditi"}
{"id": "1005376859", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Clarence Williams Iii", "title": "Remembering 'Mod Squad' Actor Clarence Williams III", "question_index": 9, "text": "How did you get from theater to television in your role as Linc on \"The Mod Squad\"?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're listening to Terry's interview with actor Clarence Williams III. He died June 4 at the age of 81. He's best known for his role as Linc, a hippie undercover cop on the TV serie"}
{"id": "1005376859", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Clarence Williams Iii", "title": "Remembering 'Mod Squad' Actor Clarence Williams III", "question_index": 10, "text": "How do they first describe \"The Mod Squad\" to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That came out of \"Slow Dance On The Killing Ground.\" Bill Cosby and his wife happened to be in New York, and he had - he was on a break from doing \"I Spy.\" And they were in New York. And as anybody wh"}
{"id": "1005376859", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Clarence Williams Iii", "title": "Remembering 'Mod Squad' Actor Clarence Williams III", "question_index": 11, "text": "But you were undercover.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it was called \"The Young Detectives.\" And these guys had - in the script, these guys were running around with all kinds of guns and machine pistols and this, that and the other the thing and dada-d"}
{"id": "1005376859", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Clarence Williams Iii", "title": "Remembering 'Mod Squad' Actor Clarence Williams III", "question_index": 12, "text": "Now, you always used to say - Linc always used to say solid.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so - always some movie star who got knocked off or some makeup person who got knocked off and and the Mod Squad was brought in undercover. And so we'd wind up being a grip or a makeup person or so"}
{"id": "1005376859", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Clarence Williams Iii", "title": "Remembering 'Mod Squad' Actor Clarence Williams III", "question_index": 13, "text": "Were you able to tell - like, do you think one could tell, looking back at the reruns, what year it was in by your hair?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That came out of that - that I ad-libbed in the show because that came out of - a lot - I used to hear a lot of jazz musicians would say to an individual who was just on such, you know, terrific solo "}
{"id": "1005376859", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Clarence Williams Iii", "title": "Remembering 'Mod Squad' Actor Clarence Williams III", "question_index": 14, "text": "So this is before the Afro. You were wearing your hair...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course they can. They knew it was that in the late '60s. And that - you know, it's interesting talking about that hair. I wore my hair long like that long before I was even an actor. My grandfather"}
{"id": "1005376859", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Clarence Williams Iii", "title": "Remembering 'Mod Squad' Actor Clarence Williams III", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is a very important story in American culture I think.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "? - what's the name of your barber? - to get Bill's barber to come up to the studio to cut my hair. So, I mean, they got a big brouhaha about this hair. So this guy comes to the studio to cut my hair."}
{"id": "1005376859", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Clarence Williams Iii", "title": "Remembering 'Mod Squad' Actor Clarence Williams III", "question_index": 16, "text": "So, listen, of all the people who you went undercover as, what was your favorite?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "? - what's the name of your barber? - to get Bill's barber to come up to the studio to cut my hair. So, I mean, they got a big brouhaha about this hair. So this guy comes to the studio to cut my hair."}
{"id": "1005376859", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Clarence Williams Iii", "title": "Remembering 'Mod Squad' Actor Clarence Williams III", "question_index": 17, "text": "Oh, Sammy Davis.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't have a favorite. But there were some favorite people who were doing the show at that time, and I got..."}
{"id": "1005376859", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Clarence Williams Iii", "title": "Remembering 'Mod Squad' Actor Clarence Williams III", "question_index": 18, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sammy Davis was a joy. But I was thinking about another thing because with Sammy, basically we played ourselves."}
{"id": "1005376859", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Clarence Williams Iii", "title": "Remembering 'Mod Squad' Actor Clarence Williams III", "question_index": 19, "text": "So were you glad or sorry when \"The Mod Squad\" came to an end?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I always liked Maurice Evans. I was - he played an admiral, a retired admiral. And my undercover thing was to be this admiral's aide. And that was a lot of fun because here's Maurice Evans, who re"}
{"id": "1005376859", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Clarence Williams Iii", "title": "Remembering 'Mod Squad' Actor Clarence Williams III", "question_index": 20, "text": "I see. Now, you know, correct me if I'm wrong here, but you were this really good role model - right? - in \"Mod Squad.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I wasn't glad and/or sorry, and it didn't come to an end in the kind of way that normally shows come to an end. My contract was up, and I would not renew. The show was never really cancelled in "}
{"id": "1005376859", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Clarence Williams Iii", "title": "Remembering 'Mod Squad' Actor Clarence Williams III", "question_index": 21, "text": "But then after that, most of the roles of yours that I know, you've been killers, abusers", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was the perception."}
{"id": "1005376859", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Clarence Williams Iii", "title": "Remembering 'Mod Squad' Actor Clarence Williams III", "question_index": 22, "text": ", people who were really nuts. I mean, that was kind of it for your good role model era", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was the perception."}
{"id": "1005376859", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Clarence Williams Iii", "title": "Remembering 'Mod Squad' Actor Clarence Williams III", "question_index": 23, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was the perception."}
{"id": "1005376859", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Clarence Williams Iii", "title": "Remembering 'Mod Squad' Actor Clarence Williams III", "question_index": 24, "text": "The crazy parts.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, it's interesting. You know, those were the kinds of parts that put me in feature films. And the one.."}
{"id": "1005376859", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Clarence Williams Iii", "title": "Remembering 'Mod Squad' Actor Clarence Williams III", "question_index": 25, "text": "Oh, \"52 Pick-Up.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so, I mean, the one that turned it for me was John Frankenheimer."}
{"id": "1005376859", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Clarence Williams Iii", "title": "Remembering 'Mod Squad' Actor Clarence Williams III", "question_index": 26, "text": "Are you glad to be getting roles that aren't those kinds of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And Mr. Frankenheimer, I think, probably is - all credit is due to him for my, quote, \"resurgence,\" end quote."}
{"id": "1005376859", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Clarence Williams Iii", "title": "Remembering 'Mod Squad' Actor Clarence Williams III", "question_index": 27, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, only because - I don't mind playing those, but obviously you want to, you know, to have a variety of work..."}
{"id": "1005381024", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Stephen Colbert On Missing His Live Audience And Making Comedy A Family Business", "question_index": 0, "text": "One of the things that's kept me sane this past year is ending nearly every weekday by watching \"The Late Show With Stephen Colbert.\" The most troubling things related to COVID and politics are typically what he focuses on in his monologues. Not only are they hilarious, but he nails just what makes the day's news disturbing or absurd. Those monologues are well researched, too. It's one of the ways I keep up with the news. I've been a fan of Colbert since he was a correspondent on \"The Daily Show with Jon Stewart,\" where, among other things, he did a recurring segment called This Week In God in which he typically satirized the news related to religious extremism. He left \"The Daily Show\" to do his own show, \"The Colbert Report,\" in which he satirized the news in persona as a right-wing blowhard TV cable news host, modeled in part on Bill O'Reilly. He's been hosting \"The Late Show\" since September 2015, just a few months after Trump announced he was running for office. Colbert has joined us several times on FRESH AIR. The last time was the week before Trump won the election back in 2016. So you work so hard. You keep such crazy hours. And I always wondered, like, how do you find time to spend with your wife and children? But for several months, you were spending all your time at home, where your wife and two of your sons were. And your family became part of the show. And I want to play an example of that. And this is from last Mother's Day. One of the bits that you do for certain holidays is that it's first draft. Like, you read a kind of corny greeting card for the holiday, and then you read a really funny version of what the first draft might have sounded like, which is always kind of nasty", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. Next week, for the first time in over a year, Stephen Colbert will be taping \"The Late Show\" in front of a live audience again. We thought we'd "}
{"id": "1005381024", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Stephen Colbert On Missing His Live Audience And Making Comedy A Family Business", "question_index": 1, "text": "and more honest. So you're asking - you know, you're at home, and you're asking for an assistant to help you read the first draft - to hand you the cards. And here's how that bit went.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. Next week, for the first time in over a year, Stephen Colbert will be taping \"The Late Show\" in front of a live audience again. We thought we'd "}
{"id": "1005381024", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Stephen Colbert On Missing His Live Audience And Making Comedy A Family Business", "question_index": 2, "text": "I thought that was so delightful. Evie's funny. Did she ever do comedy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Have you seen first drafts before..."}
{"id": "1005381024", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Stephen Colbert On Missing His Live Audience And Making Comedy A Family Business", "question_index": 3, "text": "So how do it change your family life to work at home and to work with your family?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was an actress. She was an actress. I mean, she wasn't a comedian. Like, that wasn't her specific calling. But she was an actress."}
{"id": "1005381024", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Stephen Colbert On Missing His Live Audience And Making Comedy A Family Business", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm - I can't whisper \"The Late Show\" tonight. And it's been great. Like, I've really kept - I mean, everybody in the family's done, like, bits on the shows over the years. But to have them intimately"}
{"id": "1005381024", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Stephen Colbert On Missing His Live Audience And Making Comedy A Family Business", "question_index": 5, "text": "What's it like having Evie when she sits right across from you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So then Evie took over. And it's been intimate and wonderful and something I would never experienced in another way, and in a very valuable way, erased my public life from - erased the line between my"}
{"id": "1005381024", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Stephen Colbert On Missing His Live Audience And Making Comedy A Family Business", "question_index": 6, "text": "...As the audience? Because, like, my husband's a critic. He's a tough crowd. So if he was sitting across from me while I was doing the show, it would really make me nervous.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The best."}
{"id": "1005381024", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Stephen Colbert On Missing His Live Audience And Making Comedy A Family Business", "question_index": 7, "text": "Oh, really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it does, as you saw in that clip. Like, I want this to be a good experience for her. And it's certainly - having somebody in the room with you while you're creating a show, especially a show und"}
{"id": "1005381024", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Stephen Colbert On Missing His Live Audience And Making Comedy A Family Business", "question_index": 8, "text": "Yeah. Sure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because it's much harder without an audience."}
{"id": "1005381024", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Stephen Colbert On Missing His Live Audience And Making Comedy A Family Business", "question_index": 9, "text": "How have all the changes of the pandemic and the constant concerns about protecting yourself and your family from getting the virus - how has that affected your mood? I know you're vaccinated now, so I'm hoping Evie is, too and that, you know, the concern about that has hopefully diminished a little bit. But it's been a year of high anxiety. How has that affected your mood, your spirits?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And that there's an editing process that really makes it look like I know what the hell I'm doing. And I remember thinking, God, if - I wish I could just find a way to do material that Evie would l"}
{"id": "1005381024", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Stephen Colbert On Missing His Live Audience And Making Comedy A Family Business", "question_index": 10, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Stephen Colbert. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I miss people. I really like the company of people. I miss going to dinner. I miss hugging people - I'm a hugger. I like hugging people randomly. I feel lonely a lot. When I'm in - I go to the theater"}
{"id": "1005381024", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Stephen Colbert On Missing His Live Audience And Making Comedy A Family Business", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Stephen Colbert, the host of \"The Late Show With Stephen Colbert\" on CBS. I want to play a clip from the night of the insurrection, January 6. And I think you - basically threw out the show and did it live. And so this is the opening of your show that night.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I miss people. I really like the company of people. I miss going to dinner. I miss hugging people - I'm a hugger. I like hugging people randomly. I feel lonely a lot. When I'm in - I go to the theater"}
{"id": "1005381024", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Stephen Colbert On Missing His Live Audience And Making Comedy A Family Business", "question_index": 12, "text": "So what was it like that day, figuring out, what are you going to do on the show? How are you going to address this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hey, everybody. Welcome to an unexpectedly live \"Late Show.\" I'm your host, Stephen Colbert. You know how you know it's live? If it wasn't live, they'd edit out all this dead space I'm giving you righ"}
{"id": "1005381024", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Stephen Colbert On Missing His Live Audience And Making Comedy A Family Business", "question_index": 13, "text": "So Joe Biden is the president now. You spoke with him in 2015, when he was vice president. So I think at the time, he was maybe still considering a possible run in 2016 when you interviewed him, but if he was considering it, he hadn't announced yet.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was sitting at home. It was - when we start the rewrite of the show - it's a long process to how the monologue comes together. But we start the rewrite of the show around 1:30. And I'm sitting in my"}
{"id": "1005381024", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Stephen Colbert On Missing His Live Audience And Making Comedy A Family Business", "question_index": 14, "text": "I want to play just a short clip from that interview. And just to set it up, you know, you were talking to him about the losses in his life, his son Beau, who had recently died, earlier in his life when his wife and his daughter were killed in a car crash, and his sons were hospitalized, and his whole life was turned upside down. And you were approaching too from the fact that you know loss because your father - when you were 10, your father and two of your brothers were killed in a plane crash. So Biden is talking here about how much advice his parents had given him over the years, about how you have to keep getting up and moving forward and how he admires people who, you know, with less means than he has are able to kind of get up and keep going after loss. So let's pick it up over there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, he had actually considered it and come to the conclusion that he couldn't do it. And that's one of the things he talked about on the show."}
{"id": "1005381024", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Stephen Colbert On Missing His Live Audience And Making Comedy A Family Business", "question_index": 15, "text": "So listening to that, you know, I'm thinking then Biden becomes president. You had - you shared this, like, really - you seemed to, like, really connect in that moment, both talking about your losses and how you admired each other for being able to carry on. And now you've shared that emotional moment. But now you're in the position of satirizing him. After that interview, did you say to Biden, like, and, you know, I'm going to have to keep doing jokes about you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know? Yeah. Can I ask you something?"}
{"id": "1005381024", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Stephen Colbert On Missing His Live Audience And Making Comedy A Family Business", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did get a call from Biden. And I feel OK saying this because I - it was already in an - I told the story to Evan Osnos, who was doing an article about Biden. When he looked like he might be running "}
{"id": "1005381024", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Stephen Colbert On Missing His Live Audience And Making Comedy A Family Business", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yes", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And sure enough, the next day, I got a call and I knew it was him because somebody said he's going to be calling you. And my assistant goes, what is he calling you about? I said, he's calling me about"}
{"id": "1005381024", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Stephen Colbert On Missing His Live Audience And Making Comedy A Family Business", "question_index": 18, "text": "because you make fun of his age all the time", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And sure enough, the next day, I got a call and I knew it was him because somebody said he's going to be calling you. And my assistant goes, what is he calling you about? I said, he's calling me about"}
{"id": "1005381024", "date": "2021-06-11", "guest": "Stephen Colbert", "title": "Stephen Colbert On Missing His Live Audience And Making Comedy A Family Business", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And sure enough, the next day, I got a call and I knew it was him because somebody said he's going to be calling you. And my assistant goes, what is he calling you about? I said, he's calling me about"}
{"id": "1007539626", "date": "2021-06-17", "guest": "Katherine Eban", "title": "Did COVID-19 Leak From A Lab? A Reporter Investigates \u2014 And Finds Roadblocks", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. In order to prevent another disaster pandemic, it would be helpful to know with greater certainty how this one started. Many of us assumed that was a settled issue. The virus jumped from an animal to a human, and it spread. The theory that the virus had escaped from a lab in Wuhan, China, seemed to have been dismissed as an explanation advocated by Trump and his allies to blame China for what Trump liked to call the China virus. But last month, President Biden announced he asked the intelligence community to redouble their efforts to examine whether COVID-19 emerged from human contact with an infected animal or from a laboratory accident. Answering that question is also one of the goals of the COVID Commission Planning Group, a nonpartisan group directed by Philip Zelikow, who also directed the 9/11 Commission. This week, world leaders at the G-7 summit called for a new investigation into the origins of the virus. My guest, journalist Katherine Eban, has been leading her own investigation into the lab leak theory and whether it's credible. She says, when Trump floated the lab leak hypothesis last April, his divisiveness and lack of credibility made the lab leak theory largely off-limits. She reports that those who pushed for transparency say toxic politics and hidden agendas kept us in the dark. But now that Trump is out of office, she says it should be possible to reject his xenophobic agenda and still ask, why did the outbreak begin in the city with a lab housing one of the world's most extensive collections of bad viruses and doing some of the most aggressive research? Eban's article, \"The Lab-Leak Theory,\" is now on the Vanity Fair website and will be in a subsequent issue of the print magazine. She spent months investigating the story, conducting dozens of interviews and reviewing hundreds of pages of U.S. government documents, including internal memos, meeting minutes and emails. Eban as a contributing editor at Vanity Fair. She previously joined us to discuss her book, \"Bottle Of Lies,\" about fraud in the generic drug industry. Katherine Eban, welcome to FRESH AIR. Why did you start the story? What made you think that the lab leak theory had any credibility?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1007539626", "date": "2021-06-17", "guest": "Katherine Eban", "title": "Did COVID-19 Leak From A Lab? A Reporter Investigates \u2014 And Finds Roadblocks", "question_index": 1, "text": "You write, there's reason to doubt the lab leak hypothesis, but for most of the past year, the lab leak scenario was treated not simply as unlikely or even inaccurate, but as morally out of bounds. Would you explain?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So my editor and I were just, you know, putting our heads together and talking about now that COVID-19, at least in the U.S., was coming under some control, what were the big remaining questions of th"}
{"id": "1007539626", "date": "2021-06-17", "guest": "Katherine Eban", "title": "Did COVID-19 Leak From A Lab? A Reporter Investigates \u2014 And Finds Roadblocks", "question_index": 2, "text": "So let's lay out what the two main theories are. Theory one is that it jumped - the virus jumped from an animal like a bat to a human. Tell us a little bit about the scientific basis of that theory and a little bit about what the evidence is that that might be what happened.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So the the possible hypothesis that this had originated in a laboratory became completely entangled in Trumpian politics. So in April 2020, Trump came out pretty prematurely, essentially contrad"}
{"id": "1007539626", "date": "2021-06-17", "guest": "Katherine Eban", "title": "Did COVID-19 Leak From A Lab? A Reporter Investigates \u2014 And Finds Roadblocks", "question_index": 3, "text": "So tell us about the lab leak theory and the lab in question in this theory.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. So, you know, as we know, this has been the trajectory of previous viral outbreaks. So, for example, the SARS outbreak in 2002 has been linked to bats as these reservoirs for this virus. And MER"}
{"id": "1007539626", "date": "2021-06-17", "guest": "Katherine Eban", "title": "Did COVID-19 Leak From A Lab? A Reporter Investigates \u2014 And Finds Roadblocks", "question_index": 4, "text": "And some scientists say, well, maybe it's no coincidence that the pandemic seemed to start, you know, just a few miles away from this lab.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So first, let me say that the lab leak theory is not a unitary theory. It ranges all the way from, could researchers who had gone on bat sampling missions to these remote bat caves in Yunnan province "}
{"id": "1007539626", "date": "2021-06-17", "guest": "Katherine Eban", "title": "Did COVID-19 Leak From A Lab? A Reporter Investigates \u2014 And Finds Roadblocks", "question_index": 5, "text": "I think this might be a good time to take a break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Katherine Eban. Her new article, \"The Lab-Leak Theory,\" is now online at the Vanity Fair website, where she's a contributing editor. It will be published in the subsequent issue of the actual print magazine. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's right. So this is one of the central mysteries of this SARS-CoV-2 outbreak that needs to be unpacked, which is, you know, how, in the dead of winter in central China in a city that doesn'"}
{"id": "1007539626", "date": "2021-06-17", "guest": "Katherine Eban", "title": "Did COVID-19 Leak From A Lab? A Reporter Investigates \u2014 And Finds Roadblocks", "question_index": 6, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with investigative journalist Katherine Eban. Her new article in Vanity Fair called \"The Lab-Leak Theory: Inside The Fight To Uncover COVID-19's Origins\" is now online at the Vanity Fair website. You report that the Wuhan Institute of Virology is conducting these gain-of-function experiments, which are very controversial. Can you explain a little bit more about why they're controversial and why one of the theories is that they might have, you know, contributed to the start of the pandemic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's right. So this is one of the central mysteries of this SARS-CoV-2 outbreak that needs to be unpacked, which is, you know, how, in the dead of winter in central China in a city that doesn'"}
{"id": "1007539626", "date": "2021-06-17", "guest": "Katherine Eban", "title": "Did COVID-19 Leak From A Lab? A Reporter Investigates \u2014 And Finds Roadblocks", "question_index": 7, "text": "Right. So you need a lot of safety protocols to conduct this research safely. What are the protocols like at the Wuhan Institute of Virology?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. So gain-of-function research is something that has divided the virology community for years. In 2011, a virologist named Ron Fauchier basically manipulated an avian flu pathogen and created what"}
{"id": "1007539626", "date": "2021-06-17", "guest": "Katherine Eban", "title": "Did COVID-19 Leak From A Lab? A Reporter Investigates \u2014 And Finds Roadblocks", "question_index": 8, "text": "So in February of last year, The Lancet, which is a very respected British medical journal, published a statement signed by 27 scientists rejecting the lab-leak theory. What was this statement, and what was its impact?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology had a wide range. Some of it takes place in what's called a BSL-4 laboratory. And if you've seen the images of the lead coronavirus researcher there,"}
{"id": "1007539626", "date": "2021-06-17", "guest": "Katherine Eban", "title": "Did COVID-19 Leak From A Lab? A Reporter Investigates \u2014 And Finds Roadblocks", "question_index": 9, "text": "But you found that there was a possible conflict of interest in the originator of this letter. Tell us about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the statement was essentially saying the people who are raising the question of a lab leak are trafficking in conspiracy theories. And it said, we support, you know, our Chinese colleagues, these r"}
{"id": "1007539626", "date": "2021-06-17", "guest": "Katherine Eban", "title": "Did COVID-19 Leak From A Lab? A Reporter Investigates \u2014 And Finds Roadblocks", "question_index": 10, "text": "Who's the head of the lab that was doing the virus research.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's rather complicated. But as it turns out, the person who organized that letter, named Peter Daszak, who is president of an organization called EcoHealth Alliance, had taken government grant money "}
{"id": "1007539626", "date": "2021-06-17", "guest": "Katherine Eban", "title": "Did COVID-19 Leak From A Lab? A Reporter Investigates \u2014 And Finds Roadblocks", "question_index": 11, "text": "Now, you mentioned that the U.S. actually funds some research at the Wuhan Institute of Virology, which was a real surprise to me. And you think that might have been one of the obstacles standing in the way of further investigation into the lab-leak theory. What kind of funding do we give the institute or did we give the institute? Like, how much money and for what research?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right, the lead coronavirus researcher at the Wuhan Institute of Virology. A number of the signatories on that letter were either on EcoHealth Alliance payroll or had gotten funding from EcoHea"}
{"id": "1007539626", "date": "2021-06-17", "guest": "Katherine Eban", "title": "Did COVID-19 Leak From A Lab? A Reporter Investigates \u2014 And Finds Roadblocks", "question_index": 12, "text": "So let's see if I understand it. So the NIH gives money to this EcoHealth Alliance. The EcoHealth Alliance grants some of that money to other groups, including the Wuhan Institute of Virology. Now, the person who heads the EcoHealth Alliance is Peter Daszak, who is the person behind that Lancet article that we talked about earlier that discredited the lab-leak theory.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One of the misconceptions is that somehow the National Institutes of Health was directly funding the Wuhan Institute of Virology. What was happening is that there were U.S. government grants being giv"}
{"id": "1007539626", "date": "2021-06-17", "guest": "Katherine Eban", "title": "Did COVID-19 Leak From A Lab? A Reporter Investigates \u2014 And Finds Roadblocks", "question_index": 13, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Katherine Eban. Her new article, \"The Lab-Leak Theory,\" is now online at the Vanity Fair website. She is a contributing editor at the magazine. We'll be right back after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That is correct. You have gotten the entire chain accurate. So, you know, let me just say that faced with this fact pattern, there have been conspiracy theories that go, you know, so far beyond what i"}
{"id": "1007539626", "date": "2021-06-17", "guest": "Katherine Eban", "title": "Did COVID-19 Leak From A Lab? A Reporter Investigates \u2014 And Finds Roadblocks", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Katherine Eban, a contributing editor at Vanity Fair. Her new article is titled \"The Lab-Leak Theory: Inside The Fight To Uncover COVID-19's Origins.\" It examines the political agendas and conflicts of interest that may have stood in the way of a serious investigation into whether the coronavirus that caused the pandemic leaked from a lab in Wuhan, China. She spent months investigating the story, conducting dozens of interviews and reviewing hundreds of pages of U.S. government documents, including internal memos, meeting minutes and emails. Let's talk about some of the politics that you uncovered. You write that behind closed doors, national security and public health experts and officials across a range of departments in the executive branch were locked in high-stakes battles over what could and couldn't be investigated and made public. What were some of those battles over?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That is correct. You have gotten the entire chain accurate. So, you know, let me just say that faced with this fact pattern, there have been conspiracy theories that go, you know, so far beyond what i"}
{"id": "1007539626", "date": "2021-06-17", "guest": "Katherine Eban", "title": "Did COVID-19 Leak From A Lab? A Reporter Investigates \u2014 And Finds Roadblocks", "question_index": 15, "text": "What's the can of worms?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There were two main investigative teams within the U.S. government looking into COVID origins. One was at the National Security Council, which is within the White House, the executive branch. And the "}
{"id": "1007539626", "date": "2021-06-17", "guest": "Katherine Eban", "title": "Did COVID-19 Leak From A Lab? A Reporter Investigates \u2014 And Finds Roadblocks", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, tell us more about the story of the researchers who died while researching the virus.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that is the question. It's complicated. I mean, the can of worms is the U.S. scientific community's involvement in gain-of-function research and potential - and funding to the Wuhan Institute of"}
{"id": "1007539626", "date": "2021-06-17", "guest": "Katherine Eban", "title": "Did COVID-19 Leak From A Lab? A Reporter Investigates \u2014 And Finds Roadblocks", "question_index": 17, "text": "Let me introduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Katherine Eban. Her new article, \"The Lab-Leak Theory,\" is now online at the Vanity Fair website. It will be published in a subsequent print issue of the magazine. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So what my sources have indicated is that the State Department researchers in roughly November of 2020 got a tip from a foreign source that said you have information in your own possession that"}
{"id": "1007539626", "date": "2021-06-17", "guest": "Katherine Eban", "title": "Did COVID-19 Leak From A Lab? A Reporter Investigates \u2014 And Finds Roadblocks", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with investigative journalist Katherine Eban. Her new article, which is currently on the Vanity Fair website, is titled \"The Lab-Leak Theory: Inside The Fight to Uncover COVID-19's Origins.\" China seems to have covered up some information and prevented the World Health Organization and journalists from learning things that they want to learn. What has China's role been in preventing access to information?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So what my sources have indicated is that the State Department researchers in roughly November of 2020 got a tip from a foreign source that said you have information in your own possession that"}
{"id": "1007539626", "date": "2021-06-17", "guest": "Katherine Eban", "title": "Did COVID-19 Leak From A Lab? A Reporter Investigates \u2014 And Finds Roadblocks", "question_index": 19, "text": "Wait. So that would tell us whether the coronavirus that caused the pandemic was one of the viruses they were specifically working with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So that is one area in this story where there seems to be little dispute that China has acted to cover things up from the beginning of the outbreak - you know, initially the question of whether it was"}
{"id": "1007539626", "date": "2021-06-17", "guest": "Katherine Eban", "title": "Did COVID-19 Leak From A Lab? A Reporter Investigates \u2014 And Finds Roadblocks", "question_index": 20, "text": "What are some of the other things China might have done to intentionally cover up information about things that might have led to the pandemic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Well, that would be one way to gauge it. You know, it's imperfect. But one of the questions is, is there a viral sequence in there that is a closer progenitor of SARS-CoV-2 than the other viral"}
{"id": "1007539626", "date": "2021-06-17", "guest": "Katherine Eban", "title": "Did COVID-19 Leak From A Lab? A Reporter Investigates \u2014 And Finds Roadblocks", "question_index": 21, "text": "So this theory about the people sweeping the bat guano from the floor of the mine, that they might have gotten sickened with the same or a similar virus that caused the pandemic, so that would prove that the virus spread from bat guano to humans, that it basically, like, crossed species there. So explain a little bit more how the lab figures into it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there's really a sort of startling subchapter to all of this, and it has to do with an abandoned mine shaft in Yunnan province. So in 2012, a group of six miners were sent to this mine shaft to "}
{"id": "1007539626", "date": "2021-06-17", "guest": "Katherine Eban", "title": "Did COVID-19 Leak From A Lab? A Reporter Investigates \u2014 And Finds Roadblocks", "question_index": 22, "text": "Do you trust her word on that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So, you know, there is a central mystery here, which is, if this sample in Yunnan province in the south of China is potentially a source of COVID-19, how did it arrive in Wuhan, which is, you k"}
{"id": "1007539626", "date": "2021-06-17", "guest": "Katherine Eban", "title": "Did COVID-19 Leak From A Lab? A Reporter Investigates \u2014 And Finds Roadblocks", "question_index": 23, "text": "So another group that's trying to investigate the lab-leak theory is a kind of, like, freelance group, a group of people who kind of came together. And it's called DRASTIC, which is an acronym for Decentralized Radical Autonomous Research Team Investing (ph) COVID-19. I saw their name, and I wanted almost, like, automatically dismiss them. Like, I would have preferred that they were called the totally unbiased, truly scientific, we-have-no-agenda-here group, you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one of the real problems here is that, you know, you have to ask, is she free to be candid? I mean, she is - you know, has the - she is living within an authoritarian system that closely monitor"}
{"id": "1007539626", "date": "2021-06-17", "guest": "Katherine Eban", "title": "Did COVID-19 Leak From A Lab? A Reporter Investigates \u2014 And Finds Roadblocks", "question_index": 24, "text": "Like what?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, like everything in this story, you know, the DRASTIC group is a real mixture. There are, you know, legitimate scientists in that group from cutting-edge research institutes. There are science en"}
{"id": "1007539626", "date": "2021-06-17", "guest": "Katherine Eban", "title": "Did COVID-19 Leak From A Lab? A Reporter Investigates \u2014 And Finds Roadblocks", "question_index": 25, "text": "Let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Katherine Eban. Her new article, \"The Lab-Leak Theory,\" is now online at the Vanity Fair website, where she is a contributing editor. It will be published in the subsequent issue of the actual print magazine. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For example, one of their members, who does hide behind a pseudonym - he's known on Twitter as TheSeeker268. I spoke with him on the phone, which was the reason why I was able to feature him in the ar"}
{"id": "1007539626", "date": "2021-06-17", "guest": "Katherine Eban", "title": "Did COVID-19 Leak From A Lab? A Reporter Investigates \u2014 And Finds Roadblocks", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with investigative journalist Katherine Eban. Her new article on the Vanity Fair website is titled \"The Lab-Leak Theory: Inside The Fight To Uncover COVID-19's Origins.\" When the World Health Organization sent its team to investigate the lab-leak theory, did China withhold evidence from them, were they blocked?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For example, one of their members, who does hide behind a pseudonym - he's known on Twitter as TheSeeker268. I spoke with him on the phone, which was the reason why I was able to feature him in the ar"}
{"id": "1007539626", "date": "2021-06-17", "guest": "Katherine Eban", "title": "Did COVID-19 Leak From A Lab? A Reporter Investigates \u2014 And Finds Roadblocks", "question_index": 27, "text": "Well, you know, the pandemic already exists. Like, we can't stop it from having happened. It's happened. So why is it so important to know what the origins are?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so this is really extraordinary. The World Health Organization, in conjunction with China, assembled a team of experts to go over and do a sort of independent study, a mission to China to look a"}
{"id": "1007539626", "date": "2021-06-17", "guest": "Katherine Eban", "title": "Did COVID-19 Leak From A Lab? A Reporter Investigates \u2014 And Finds Roadblocks", "question_index": 28, "text": "Well, thank you for telling us about your reporting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's so important to know so that we can prevent a future pandemic, right? I mean, if this was a lab-leak origin, we would have to massively overhaul laboratory safety and scientific approaches to res"}
{"id": "1007539626", "date": "2021-06-17", "guest": "Katherine Eban", "title": "Did COVID-19 Leak From A Lab? A Reporter Investigates \u2014 And Finds Roadblocks", "question_index": 29, "text": "And thank you for being our guest.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1007539626", "date": "2021-06-17", "guest": "Katherine Eban", "title": "Did COVID-19 Leak From A Lab? A Reporter Investigates \u2014 And Finds Roadblocks", "question_index": 30, "text": "Katherine Eban, a contributing editor at Vanity Fair. Her article \"The Lab-Leak Theory: Inside The Fight To Uncover COVID-19's Origins\" is now on the Vanity Fair website.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a pleasure to speak with you, Terry."}
{"id": "1007539626", "date": "2021-06-17", "guest": "Katherine Eban", "title": "Did COVID-19 Leak From A Lab? A Reporter Investigates \u2014 And Finds Roadblocks", "question_index": 31, "text": "If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, like this week's interview with Anthony Ramos, star of the film adaptation of Lin-Manuel Miranda's musical \"In The Heights\" and a star of the HBO series \"In Treatment,\" check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a pleasure to speak with you, Terry."}
{"id": "1007539626", "date": "2021-06-17", "guest": "Katherine Eban", "title": "Did COVID-19 Leak From A Lab? A Reporter Investigates \u2014 And Finds Roadblocks", "question_index": 32, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Kayla Lattimore and Joel Wolfram. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Seth Kelley directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a pleasure to speak with you, Terry."}
{"id": "1007573283", "date": "2021-06-18", "guest": "President Richard Nixon", "title": "How The Pentagon Papers Changed Public Perception Of The War In Vietnam", "question_index": 0, "text": "Bradlee was the executive editor of The Washington Post from 1968 to 1991. The biggest story covered under Bradlee's watch was Watergate, which forced the resignation of President Nixon. The first big risk Bradlee took was publishing the Pentagon Papers, the top-secret documents that revealed the history of the U.S. involvement in Vietnam. The New York Times had already published several installments. But the Justice Department got an injunction against the paper, preventing it from publishing further excerpts. Then the Pentagon Papers were leaked to the Post. I asked Bradlee why it was important for the Post to publish the Pentagon Papers.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. We're talking about the Pentagon Papers, the top-secret history of the U.S. involvement in Vietnam based on classified documents exposed by Dani"}
{"id": "1007573283", "date": "2021-06-18", "guest": "President Richard Nixon", "title": "How The Pentagon Papers Changed Public Perception Of The War In Vietnam", "question_index": 1, "text": "What were the risks?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Failure to publish after The New York Times had published would have relegated The Post to a status of a kind of a pro-government establishment organization which didn't want to take on the government"}
{"id": "1007573283", "date": "2021-06-18", "guest": "President Richard Nixon", "title": "How The Pentagon Papers Changed Public Perception Of The War In Vietnam", "question_index": 2, "text": "There's a great story you tell about a phone call that I think really took a lot of chutzpah", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there were some interesting risks because if we had been - this was a civil suit. If we had been enjoined - mind you, no newspaper in the history of the country, which was then 190-some years ol"}
{"id": "1007573283", "date": "2021-06-18", "guest": "President Richard Nixon", "title": "How The Pentagon Papers Changed Public Perception Of The War In Vietnam", "question_index": 3, "text": "to get...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there were some interesting risks because if we had been - this was a civil suit. If we had been enjoined - mind you, no newspaper in the history of the country, which was then 190-some years ol"}
{"id": "1007573283", "date": "2021-06-18", "guest": "President Richard Nixon", "title": "How The Pentagon Papers Changed Public Perception Of The War In Vietnam", "question_index": 4, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Who, me?"}
{"id": "1007573283", "date": "2021-06-18", "guest": "President Richard Nixon", "title": "How The Pentagon Papers Changed Public Perception Of The War In Vietnam", "question_index": 5, "text": "To get a friend of yours, who is a judge, on the phone so you could get his advice. But, of course, he was arguing a case in court at the time. Tell us what you did.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Who, me?"}
{"id": "1007573283", "date": "2021-06-18", "guest": "President Richard Nixon", "title": "How The Pentagon Papers Changed Public Perception Of The War In Vietnam", "question_index": 6, "text": "I mean a lawyer. I meant a lawyer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he wasn't a judge. He was a lawyer."}
{"id": "1007573283", "date": "2021-06-18", "guest": "President Richard Nixon", "title": "How The Pentagon Papers Changed Public Perception Of The War In Vietnam", "question_index": 7, "text": "So how much of the decision to publish was so that The Post could become a more respected player and how much of it was all the lofty principles about freedom of the press?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was Edward Bennett Williams who was the famous defense attorney and a friend of mine for already 20 years. And he was - he would have defended us had he been in Washington, but he was trying a case"}
{"id": "1007573283", "date": "2021-06-18", "guest": "President Richard Nixon", "title": "How The Pentagon Papers Changed Public Perception Of The War In Vietnam", "question_index": 8, "text": "Now give me a sense of what your style was like when you were making your case to Katharine Graham and to the lawyers. Did you make speeches about freedom of the press? Did you insult your opponents in the newsroom? What was your style?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a good question, too, because, you know, in the last - it was 7,000 pages, although we only had 4,000 of them. We got them at 10:30 in the morning, and we published at 10:30 that night the - ou"}
{"id": "1007573283", "date": "2021-06-18", "guest": "President Richard Nixon", "title": "How The Pentagon Papers Changed Public Perception Of The War In Vietnam", "question_index": 9, "text": "The lawyers - yeah, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I had no opponents in the newsroom. I had the lawyers to worry about."}
{"id": "1007573283", "date": "2021-06-18", "guest": "President Richard Nixon", "title": "How The Pentagon Papers Changed Public Perception Of The War In Vietnam", "question_index": 10, "text": "Do you thrive on making these complicated decisions or were these, like, Maalox moments for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We were - we had - it was - all of this was taking place in my house in Georgetown. We had two fairly large rooms. And one of them was sort of a temporary city room where a bunch of reporters and a co"}
{"id": "1007573283", "date": "2021-06-18", "guest": "President Richard Nixon", "title": "How The Pentagon Papers Changed Public Perception Of The War In Vietnam", "question_index": 11, "text": "You'd be reaching for the medicine?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1007573283", "date": "2021-06-18", "guest": "President Richard Nixon", "title": "How The Pentagon Papers Changed Public Perception Of The War In Vietnam", "question_index": 12, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there's a wonderful quality of journalism. If you make a mistake, it's out there for everybody to see."}
{"id": "1007573283", "date": "2021-06-18", "guest": "President Richard Nixon", "title": "How The Pentagon Papers Changed Public Perception Of The War In Vietnam", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it stays there and, you know, it goes right - bang - into the history books. And it's - there are no known device that you can erase a daily newspaper (ph). I love it."}
{"id": "1007612868", "date": "2021-06-18", "guest": "Ned Beatty", "title": "Remembering Character Actor Ned Beatty", "question_index": 0, "text": "Your first film role was in the movie \"Deliverance.\" Did you have any reservations about making your screen debut in a role where the character is raped by a man?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry spoke with Ned Beatty in 1987."}
{"id": "1007612868", "date": "2021-06-18", "guest": "Ned Beatty", "title": "Remembering Character Actor Ned Beatty", "question_index": 1, "text": "You mentioned how surprised you were at the cameraman's horrified reaction to the rape scene in \"Deliverance.\" And do you think it's a combination of two things - one, the humiliation of rape, but, two, a certain amount of homophobia?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. As far as I can recall, it never occurred to me. As a matter of fact, I was sort of, in a way, shocked by how people reacted to that. I was shocked, as a matter of fact, even when we filmed it, ho"}
{"id": "1007612868", "date": "2021-06-18", "guest": "Ned Beatty", "title": "Remembering Character Actor Ned Beatty", "question_index": 2, "text": "Oh, yeah. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I really think it had to do with how well we did the scene."}
{"id": "1007612868", "date": "2021-06-18", "guest": "Ned Beatty", "title": "Remembering Character Actor Ned Beatty", "question_index": 3, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I - that's a..."}
{"id": "1007612868", "date": "2021-06-18", "guest": "Ned Beatty", "title": "Remembering Character Actor Ned Beatty", "question_index": 4, "text": "I think your career proves that it's not the size of the role, but what the role is and how you play it that counts. And I'm thinking specifically of your role in \"Network,\" for which you got nominated for an Academy Award as best supporting actor. Now, how many minutes were you actually on the screen in that movie?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Terribly egotistical answer. I think we did it well. The actor who played the rapist, Bill McKinney, is a wonderful actor. And I think it's a scene that would bother anyone. I don't know that it ha"}
{"id": "1007612868", "date": "2021-06-18", "guest": "Ned Beatty", "title": "Remembering Character Actor Ned Beatty", "question_index": 5, "text": "Well, I think it's pretty amazing to get nominated for an Academy Award for a role that lasts under three minutes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it must have been less than three, I would think. Well, let's say between three and four minutes at the outset - outside."}
{"id": "1007612868", "date": "2021-06-18", "guest": "Ned Beatty", "title": "Remembering Character Actor Ned Beatty", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "..."}
{"id": "1007612868", "date": "2021-06-18", "guest": "Ned Beatty", "title": "Remembering Character Actor Ned Beatty", "question_index": 7, "text": "Do you think that people in Hollywood talk about such a thing as a Ned Beatty type?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...That's like a license to steal. It's wonderful when they talk about you for a long time before you get there. That's like having been on screen all that time. And this particular character was focu"}
{"id": "1007612868", "date": "2021-06-18", "guest": "Ned Beatty", "title": "Remembering Character Actor Ned Beatty", "question_index": 8, "text": "So what do you think a Ned Beatty type is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I suspect they do. You know, there's that old saw about, you know, who's Ned Beatty? You know, how's it go? Who's Ned Beatty? Get me Ned Beatty. Get me a Ned Beatty type. You know, I suspect I'm a"}
{"id": "1007612868", "date": "2021-06-18", "guest": "Ned Beatty", "title": "Remembering Character Actor Ned Beatty", "question_index": 9, "text": "Did you ever go to drama school?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I don't know. I hope they're thinking in terms of an actor. I've always liked to think that one of the reasons I've been very fortunate is because I have been typecast as an actor rather than as a"}
{"id": "1007612868", "date": "2021-06-18", "guest": "Ned Beatty", "title": "Remembering Character Actor Ned Beatty", "question_index": 10, "text": "Do you think you have a different acting style from people who you've worked with who are graduates of the Yale School of Drama or who studied the method?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I didn't. I don't know whether it would have done me a great deal of good. I wasn't a very good student ever of anything."}
{"id": "1007612868", "date": "2021-06-18", "guest": "Ned Beatty", "title": "Remembering Character Actor Ned Beatty", "question_index": 11, "text": "Is there a specific song you've used in certain roles?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't think so. Luckily enough, my university was - you know, was the theater. And I got to work with actors who worked all kinds of different styles, with directors who worked in all sorts of"}
{"id": "1007612868", "date": "2021-06-18", "guest": "Ned Beatty", "title": "Remembering Character Actor Ned Beatty", "question_index": 12, "text": "Why would that make you angry?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's one that always comes to my mind because I got so tickled when it worked for me. And I will tell you what it is, and you may take from it what you will. But I used to be able to become immedia"}
{"id": "1007612868", "date": "2021-06-18", "guest": "Ned Beatty", "title": "Remembering Character Actor Ned Beatty", "question_index": 13, "text": "It's a little pop confection.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know why it works."}
{"id": "1007612868", "date": "2021-06-18", "guest": "Ned Beatty", "title": "Remembering Character Actor Ned Beatty", "question_index": 14, "text": "I think that's really funny.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I don't want to analyze it too deeply, but something about ba-ba-ba da-da-da-da-da-da-da da-da-da ba-mm-ba (ph) - it just turns - I can get every hair on my head standing on end, practically, by"}
{"id": "1007612868", "date": "2021-06-18", "guest": "Ned Beatty", "title": "Remembering Character Actor Ned Beatty", "question_index": 15, "text": "I'll always think of you when I hear that song. You were telling us a little bit about your performance in \"Deliverance.\" You're - one of your latest roles was in \"The Big Easy.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it is."}
{"id": "1007612868", "date": "2021-06-18", "guest": "Ned Beatty", "title": "Remembering Character Actor Ned Beatty", "question_index": 16, "text": "Did you prepare for that role differently than you did for \"Deliverance\"? - because by the time you were cast in \"The Big Easy,\" you were a seasoned veteran. \"Deliverance\" was your very first film role. Had you changed a lot in terms of your acting style?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1007612868", "date": "2021-06-18", "guest": "Ned Beatty", "title": "Remembering Character Actor Ned Beatty", "question_index": 17, "text": "Ned Beatty, thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't know. I felt very strong as an actor when I did \"Deliverance.\" Some of the stories that I could tell myself about the filming of that movie sort of make my own hair curl. It's curly alre"}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guests Desus and Mero host the Showtime comedy series \"Desus & Mero\" Sunday and Thursday nights at 11. Their third season resumed after a monthlong hiatus last night. It was their first show back in the studio since the pandemic. At the heart of the show is Desus and Mero talking to each other, making each other and the audience laugh about everything from politics to viral videos, sports, pop culture and the Bronx, where they each grew up in the '80s and early '90s. The show also has sketches, and in each show, Desus and Mero do an interview. They get high-profile guests like Barack Obama, Anthony Fauci, Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, Chadwick Boseman, Seth Meyers and Chris Hayes, who went to school with Desus. Desus and Mero are the children of immigrants. Desus' parents are from Jamaica; Mero's are from the Dominican Republic. They wrote about that in their bestselling book \"God-Level Knowledge Darts: Life Lessons From The Bronx\" in which they give questionable but funny advice about drugs, parenting, masculinity, dealing with police and surviving being broke. The duo started doing comedy together on Twitter, then created a podcast called \"Bodega Boys,\" which led to a TV show on Viceland and then a TV show on Showtime. When Desus and Mero interviewed David Letterman on their Showtime series, here's what he said about them at the end of the interview.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 1, "text": "Desus and Mero, welcome to FRESH AIR. It's such a pleasure to have you on our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is high praise. Thank you."}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 2, "text": "So before you started working together, you both had a bunch of jobs before becoming, like, TV and audio people. So you had, like, legal, illegal, semi-legal...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having us."}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 3, "text": "...Kind of jobs. Tell us about some of the most interesting, well, ones that you've had. Desus, you want to start?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having us."}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 4, "text": "Whoa. I've never heard of such a job, like a professional rat-catcher.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, I've had a million jobs, but I think one of the most interesting jobs I had was working at the New York Public Library because I worked there - every job I've had, I've pretty much worked my"}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. If you want to say professional, if you mean, like, a 15-year-old with Vicks Vapor rub on his top lip, that's what..."}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 6, "text": "Wow. Didn't you also work managing a strip club?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "'Cause the person came the week before, and they put down bait, but no one stopped to think, OK, they're going to eat the bait and die, and now there's going to be this terrible smell inside the build"}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 7, "text": "Wow", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. I - see? That's how wild my life is. That's not even, like, a job I think of off the top of my head. I'm like, oh, yeah, that's something I did. But yeah, working in different nightclubs all ov"}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 8, "text": ". Mero, let's get to some of your jobs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. I - see? That's how wild my life is. That's not even, like, a job I think of off the top of my head. I'm like, oh, yeah, that's something I did. But yeah, working in different nightclubs all ov"}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 9, "text": "Wait. You worked at an Ann Taylor Loft?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, man. I've had every retail job you could imagine. Like, I worked at a Sally Beauty Supply. I worked at a Ann Taylor Loft. I worked at, like..."}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, man. I've had every retail job you could imagine. Like, I worked at a Sally Beauty Supply. I worked at a Ann Taylor Loft. I worked at, like..."}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, seriously. And I was in the stockroom. But going back to, like, when did you know you were funny? Like, I would just make people on the crew laugh - you know what I mean? - and people like my co"}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 12, "text": "Did you have to say, that looks so adorable on you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I haven't done my hair in two weeks, and I have gold teeth, so I don't know how you find me charismatic. So then they had me on the floor, like, interfacing with, like, you know, all kinds of people i"}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 13, "text": "OK, what else? What other jobs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Like, that - you know, that kind of thing. But, like, I'm a Dominican guy, so, like, I'm very flirtatious by nature. So I sold a lot of blouses using, you know, flirting."}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 14, "text": "When you were working in a public school as a teacher's aide or paraprofessional, what did you have to do? 'Cause I remember, I taught very briefly before I was fired. So I walked in, and, like, there was a paraprofessional or teacher's aide. I forget what his official job was. And he looked at me, and he said, basically, you're not going to make it", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 15, "text": ". And then he gave me some advice, and I want to know if you follow this advice. He said, what I do with the students - if a kid's bad, I take him out of the class, and I holler at him so everybody could hear, and then I start kicking the locker so people think I'm, like, throwing him against the locker, but I'm not; I'm just kicking him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 16, "text": "And I thought, like, wow, thanks for being such a great role model for me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 17, "text": "It sounds like you were really good at it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. No, I mean, you know what it is? Some of those, it's case-by-case, you know what I mean? That's the thing, too. Like, it's kind of like being a coach. Like, you have a team, your roster of stude"}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 18, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, like, that's the thing, too. Like, I stepped into it thinking, like, I have to be Khaki-Van-Heusen-Button-Up Man, you know, for these kids to take me seriously. And then it was just, lik"}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 19, "text": "Let me reintroduce you both. If you're just joining us, my guests are Desus and Mero. Their Showtime comedy series is on Sunday and Thursday nights at 11. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then I can go tell the counselor. Or I could just offline with the parent personally and be like, yo, listen; you know, your son, your daughter, whoever, told me this, you know? I'm a little worri"}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Desus and Mero, the duo that hosts the Showtime comedy series \"Desus & Mero,\" in which they talk to each other and make each other laugh about subjects ranging from politics to sports to pop culture and the Bronx, where they're both from. You're both the children of immigrants. And, Mero, your parents are from the Dominican Republic, and, Desus, your parents are from Jamaica. Did they each tell you a lot about, like, their backstories and why they came to New York?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then I can go tell the counselor. Or I could just offline with the parent personally and be like, yo, listen; you know, your son, your daughter, whoever, told me this, you know? I'm a little worri"}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 21, "text": "So you both grew up in the Bronx in the 1980s and '90s. And, I mean, the Bronx was kind of like - during that period, it was kind of, like, the capital of graffiti and hip-hop culture. Which parts of that were most important in your life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, growing up with my - yeah, my parents definitely - looking back, it wasn't - they weren't like, look; I did this, I did this to, like, berate me or anything. I think, looking back, like, they we"}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 22, "text": "So did you learn English in part by listening to rap?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But, like, it just - there's this rush where you see - like, if I paint one of those, like, white box trucks, and I just see it, like - I paint it in the Bronx, and then I see it out somewhere on a "}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 23, "text": "But if you were learning English in part from rap, like, you learned English in part in rhyme.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Definitely. Music, television, older cousins that were bilingual. But mostly, like, pop culture - TV, music, stuff like that. Like, I learned a lot of stuff from \"Saved By The Bell.\""}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 24, "text": "What was your best way of hiding from police when you were doing graffiti?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- like, whenever I'm writing or talking or whatever. But, you know, like, that definitely influenced the way, like, I speak, period."}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 25, "text": "Right. Desus, what were the parts of hip-hop and graffiti culture that you most identified with or were a part of.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All-black outfit. You know, if it's summertime - black T-shirt, black pants, sweatpants, shorts, whatever. And nothing reflective, nothing reflective. Maybe a bandana. You know what I'm saying? But th"}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 26, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For me, it was more music because my father, he was a DJ in Jamaica. Now, when he came to America..."}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 27, "text": "My guests are Desus and Mero. Their Showtime series \"Desus & Mero\" is on Thursday and Sunday evenings at 11. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...He still had, like, a lot of vinyl and things like that. Because he had to work, he didn't really have time to DJ anymore. But I always, like, saw the records and saw, like, when he would play musi"}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 28, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Desus and Mero, hosts of the comedy series \"Desus & Mero,\" which is on Showtime Sundays and Thursdays at 11. Their third season resumed after a month-long hiatus last night. On each show, they riff on all kinds of subjects and interview a guest. Recent guests have included Yo-Yo Ma, Stacey Abrams, Anthony Mackie, Demi Lovato and Kenan Thompson. Desus and Mero grew up in the Bronx in the '80s and '90s. Last year, they wrote a book of advice, of life lessons from the Bronx called \"God-Level Knowledge Darts.\" Desus, your mother was a librarian. Did you grow up with a lot of books? And I should mention, in the acknowledgements of your book, you say that you - I think it was in the acknowledgments - you say that you were an English major - shoutout to \"Jane Eyre\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's having a ball. And, you know, they asked me to get on the mic. And they asked me, can I kick it? Word. Yes, you can. Can I kick it? Yes, you can. (Rapping) Can I kick it? Yes, you can. Can I kick"}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 29, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's having a ball. And, you know, they asked me to get on the mic. And they asked me, can I kick it? Word. Yes, you can. Can I kick it? Yes, you can. (Rapping) Can I kick it? Yes, you can. Can I kick"}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 30, "text": "I was surprised to see \"Jane Eyre.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 31, "text": "Yeah, it sounds it. Mero, you described yourself - when you were interviewing David Letterman, you described yourself as a hellacious teenager.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. That was a shoutout to my mother. My mother was - when she returned to the workforce after having four kids, she was a tutor at the CRW in the New York Public Library. And my mother started "}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 32, "text": "What made you hellacious?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 33, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "answer your question, I was a hellacious teenager probably because I was rebelling against that. But it worked out because I ended up mixing those two worlds - like, running around in the street, doin"}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 34, "text": "What did masculinity mean to each of you when you were growing up? What did being - you know, proving that you were a man mean? What did it require?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But at the end of the day, it's just like, you know, it helped me realize, like, earlier than the other kids that, you know, \"Animal Farm\" isn't just a book about pigs being in charge. You know, theme"}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 35, "text": "And, Desus, what message did you get from - about masculinity from your family but also from friends and from people who weren't necessarily your friends?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. For me, it was - my dad is weird because he never was like, this is what a man does. Like, I saw him cooking alongside my mom. I saw him cleaning the house alongside my mom. My dad, you "}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 36, "text": "Well, you know, you're both now, like, LGBTQ allies. How did you get to that point? I mean, did you grow up with homophobia and with gay being used as a, you know, derogatory term?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was never really the kind of thing where it was stressed on you about - be a man, you got to be a man, you got to do this, you got to stand up - especially in my house because there was so many gir"}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 37, "text": "Well, that's great. And Mero, what about you? Like, your mother-in-law is a lesbian, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, absolutely. Especially being in a Caribbean community, like, you know, you have very popular songs that are about murdering gay people. And you grow up, you don't even realize that's what th"}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 38, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And my - shout out to Judith, shout out to Claudia (ph), I love - you know, loves of my life, beautiful women. And that - to me, that was, like, not a thing. Like, you know what I mean? Like, it "}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 39, "text": "Yes. But like you said, there was so much homophobia in pop culture and in hip-hop at the time. So just to balance what you just said...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like, you know what I mean? Like, Dominican guy meets Jewish girl at work. They fall in love. Whoa, his mom's - his mother-in-law's gay. Whoa. That's wacky. How are they going to get along? But like, "}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 40, "text": "Let me reintroduce you both here. If you're just joining us, my guests are Desus and Mero. Their Showtime comedy series is on Sunday and Thursday nights at 11. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, yeah. And it's so bizarre that there was so much of it. And - but it didn't - I don't know. It didn't - like, it didn't, like, take root in me."}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 41, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Desus and Mero. The duo hosts the Showtime comedy series \"Desus & Mero\" in which they talk to each other and make each other laugh about subjects ranging from politics to sports, pop culture and the Bronx, where they're both from. Mero, you said that you realized you had to find a way - and I'm paraphrasing here - to turn hopelessness into comedy. Was that like a revelation you had, or is that something you just naturally did?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, yeah. And it's so bizarre that there was so much of it. And - but it didn't - I don't know. It didn't - like, it didn't, like, take root in me."}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 42, "text": "Wait. So they'd spray-paint your shoes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. No, it was just natural 'cause it was like, I had to laugh at the roaches in my apartment. I couldn't do anything about it. You know what I mean? I had to laugh, like, you know, drinking water a"}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 43, "text": "Would they - did they use your spray paint to do it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That happened to me a bunch of times. They would spray-paint my stuff, throw - you know..."}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 44, "text": "And - but they'd do that instead of arresting you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 45, "text": "And then release you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". They'd throw you up - put you in cuffs, spray your shoes, spray your shirt."}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 46, "text": "And in retrospect", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then uncuff you and then be like, yo, get out of here, you piece of, you know, expletive."}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 47, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then uncuff you and then be like, yo, get out of here, you piece of, you know, expletive."}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 48, "text": "So while we're on the subject of police, did you have serious incidents with police when you were growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In retrospect, I'm like, I don't know if that was better or worse than getting arrested 'cause I got a pretty clean record. But I'm like, man, like, that sucked. You know what I mean? Like, how many p"}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 49, "text": "And what were the consequences of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I got arrested by NYPD, and they falsely charged me for having a gun."}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 50, "text": "Yeah. You talk about politics a lot on the show, both in your riffing with each other but also with guests - with AOC, with Bernie Sanders, with lots of other people. You interviewed Obama, and it seemed to me like he knew your show. Are you ever doing your show and thinking, oh, Obama might be listening?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I beat that with a public defender. Because you know what? The thing is, it was the - it was my local precinct. They're lazy. They didn't fill out the right paperwork. I remember the - it was a Black "}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 51, "text": "Really - yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was something we always thought about in the past, but now it's just like - now you're just like, oh, Obama's listening. I'm going to definitely do this joke because what is he going to do?"}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 52, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He has to sit there in the living room and take it."}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 53, "text": "Desus and Mero, thank you so much for talking with us. It's really been a pleasure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And Michelle is sitting there like, ah, they can't do anything about it, Barry. But no, it's like - it's just the beauty of being on Showtime. You have a higher platform and just more people listening"}
{"id": "1007619117", "date": "2021-06-21", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "'Desus & Mero' On How Their Bronx Roots Paved The Way To Comedy Success", "question_index": 54, "text": "You can see \"Desus & Mero\" Sunday and Thursday nights on Showtime. Their book is called \"God-Level Knowledge Darts: Life Lessons From The Bronx.\" After we take a short break, Justin Chang will review a Pixar film for all ages and a German film for adults. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1009403840", "date": "2021-06-23", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer Star Megan Rapinoe On Equal Pay, And What The U.S. Flag Means To Her", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Megan Rapinoe, is an icon as a champion soccer player and as an activist. In 2019, after the U.S. national women's soccer team won their fourth World Cup, she was awarded the Golden Boot for top scorer and the Golden Ball for the tournament's best player. She's the former co-captain of the team. Rapinoe also helped her team win a gold medal at the 2012 Olympics. For a while, she was practically the only openly gay player on the U.S. women's national team, which put her in the spotlight as an LGBTQ activist. She was an early supporter of Black Lives Matter and was embroiled in controversy when she took a knee during the national anthem in 2016 in solidarity with Colin Kaepernick. She's fought for equal pay in women's soccer and was part of a lawsuit against the U.S. Soccer Federation. The team's claim about equal pay was dismissed, but the team is appealing the decision. Rapinoe is one of the women soccer players featured in a new documentary about the fight for equal pay called \"LFG,\" which will start streaming on HBO Max tomorrow. I spoke with her last November, after the publication of her memoir \"One Life.\" It was shortly after she announced her engagement to Sue Bird, a champion player in the WNBA. At the time, the Tokyo Olympics had been canceled and not yet rescheduled. But the Olympics are back on, and she's headed with the team to the games this summer.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1009403840", "date": "2021-06-23", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer Star Megan Rapinoe On Equal Pay, And What The U.S. Flag Means To Her", "question_index": 1, "text": "Megan Rapinoe, welcome to FRESH AIR, and congratulations on your engagement. How much have things changed since you first came out, like, nearly 10 years ago?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1009403840", "date": "2021-06-23", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer Star Megan Rapinoe On Equal Pay, And What The U.S. Flag Means To Her", "question_index": 2, "text": "You've helped turn women's soccer into a very popular sport in the U.S., and you've helped pave the way for more equity in women's sports. Give us a sense of some of the disparities between how men and women have been paid in soccer and how they've been treated.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's an interesting question. Thank you for the congratulations, of course. I think in so many ways, you know, we're further along and we're in a better place. And in so many ways, we're sort "}
{"id": "1009403840", "date": "2021-06-23", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer Star Megan Rapinoe On Equal Pay, And What The U.S. Flag Means To Her", "question_index": 3, "text": "Yeah. And you had - you were on, like, a championship women's team and the men's team was a losing team, and they were getting paid so much more than you were.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The amount of money that we could possibly earn in our contract compared to the amount of money that the men could possibly earn in the contract is very different. I think a lot of - a lot is made abo"}
{"id": "1009403840", "date": "2021-06-23", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer Star Megan Rapinoe On Equal Pay, And What The U.S. Flag Means To Her", "question_index": 4, "text": "I think people have been pretty dismissive of women's sports, and it's always taken a secondary place. But I think, you know, like women like you and women like Sue Bird are really bringing women into sports in a way that they can actually, like, identify with the players and see themselves on the field in the way that they can't quite with men's sports. And I wonder, like, what that means to you to be a part of that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah. And I think that was something that we felt that the court really didn't fully appreciate. We'll just say, you know, for round numbers' sake, if we captured 90% of our, you know, the total"}
{"id": "1009403840", "date": "2021-06-23", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer Star Megan Rapinoe On Equal Pay, And What The U.S. Flag Means To Her", "question_index": 5, "text": "So, you know, we've been talking about women's soccer and some of the inequities in, like, men's and women's sports. When you started playing soccer when you were around 6, there wasn't, like, a girls team for you to be part of, so you and your twin sister became members of the boys team. How did it feel for you as a girl to be on the boys team? 'Cause, you know, another thing you say in your book is that you don't think you ever dominated a team the way you dominated that boys team when you were a child.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I think we are in a big way much more relatable. I think with women, because our sports are smaller and we're not seen as these celebrities quite yet, I think the accessibility has been so muc"}
{"id": "1009403840", "date": "2021-06-23", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer Star Megan Rapinoe On Equal Pay, And What The U.S. Flag Means To Her", "question_index": 6, "text": "And, you know, I'm also wondering, like, did the boys really appreciate that? Like, she's really great, and she's on our team. Or did they think it was weird or maybe even uncomfortable that a girl was, like, beating them? You know, you were on the same team, but you were better than they were.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1009403840", "date": "2021-06-23", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer Star Megan Rapinoe On Equal Pay, And What The U.S. Flag Means To Her", "question_index": 7, "text": "My guest is women's soccer star Megan Rapinoe. We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I don't think I ever really, really thought about it, probably until, you know, fifth or sixth grade - I think that's when, you know, gender lines are drawn more clearly - because, you know,"}
{"id": "1009403840", "date": "2021-06-23", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer Star Megan Rapinoe On Equal Pay, And What The U.S. Flag Means To Her", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with soccer star Megan Rapinoe. She's featured in the new documentary \"LFG\" about the ongoing fight for equal pay for the U.S. women's national soccer team. It starts streaming on HBO Max tomorrow. Her memoir is called \"One Life.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I don't think I ever really, really thought about it, probably until, you know, fifth or sixth grade - I think that's when, you know, gender lines are drawn more clearly - because, you know,"}
{"id": "1009403840", "date": "2021-06-23", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer Star Megan Rapinoe On Equal Pay, And What The U.S. Flag Means To Her", "question_index": 9, "text": "You write that you knew you were never going to be the fastest player or the strongest player, so you had to develop a style rooted in something other than beating people through physical force. Do you think that - thinking that you wouldn't be, like, the strongest or the fastest helped you develop your footwork?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I don't think I ever really, really thought about it, probably until, you know, fifth or sixth grade - I think that's when, you know, gender lines are drawn more clearly - because, you know,"}
{"id": "1009403840", "date": "2021-06-23", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer Star Megan Rapinoe On Equal Pay, And What The U.S. Flag Means To Her", "question_index": 10, "text": "So I want to ask you about one of your most spectacular plays, which a lot of us have seen either when it happened or on YouTube 'cause the video went viral. It was in 2011. You kick the ball across the field - a big, amazing cross - and then Abby Wambach headed it into the goal. So I want you to describe it from your perspective.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, definitely. I think it helped me develop not just my footwork, but my awareness in the game. Some people can outrun everyone. Some people are better understanding spatial awareness. I think "}
{"id": "1009403840", "date": "2021-06-23", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer Star Megan Rapinoe On Equal Pay, And What The U.S. Flag Means To Her", "question_index": 11, "text": "You were one of the first women on the U.S. national women's soccer team to come out. Although, you say there were plenty of other women who were gay but not out", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was like, I don't know where else you would be. But you better be somewhere around where I'm trying to kick it. And I just heaved it. I just kicked it literally as hard as I could. You have this ins"}
{"id": "1009403840", "date": "2021-06-23", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer Star Megan Rapinoe On Equal Pay, And What The U.S. Flag Means To Her", "question_index": 12, "text": ". You say you were one of the only gay players at the time, which is hilarious considering how many gay people were really on the team", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was like, I don't know where else you would be. But you better be somewhere around where I'm trying to kick it. And I just heaved it. I just kicked it literally as hard as I could. You have this ins"}
{"id": "1009403840", "date": "2021-06-23", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer Star Megan Rapinoe On Equal Pay, And What The U.S. Flag Means To Her", "question_index": 13, "text": ". So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was like, I don't know where else you would be. But you better be somewhere around where I'm trying to kick it. And I just heaved it. I just kicked it literally as hard as I could. You have this ins"}
{"id": "1009403840", "date": "2021-06-23", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer Star Megan Rapinoe On Equal Pay, And What The U.S. Flag Means To Her", "question_index": 14, "text": "...What made you decide, like, you were going to publicly come out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1009403840", "date": "2021-06-23", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer Star Megan Rapinoe On Equal Pay, And What The U.S. Flag Means To Her", "question_index": 15, "text": "And what changed afterwards?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I honestly felt like - I mean, even going back to when I first sort of discovered I was gay myself, which happened very shortly after I got to college, I never struggled with that. I was act"}
{"id": "1009403840", "date": "2021-06-23", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer Star Megan Rapinoe On Equal Pay, And What The U.S. Flag Means To Her", "question_index": 16, "text": "I think Sue Bird, who you're engaged to and who is a WNBA star - I think she was not out when you started your relationship. Did you convince her to come out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Publicly, I think, a lot changed. I still, to this day, have, you know, people coming up to me or writing to me or whatever it may be, you know, thanking me or saying, you know, I'm the reason they fe"}
{"id": "1009403840", "date": "2021-06-23", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer Star Megan Rapinoe On Equal Pay, And What The U.S. Flag Means To Her", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's funny. The - one of the first things that my twin sister said was, is Sue out? And I was like, no. She's not out. Like, she's obviously out with her family and friends and all of that, "}
{"id": "1009403840", "date": "2021-06-23", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer Star Megan Rapinoe On Equal Pay, And What The U.S. Flag Means To Her", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So - which is so true. It's like, I mean, even though we're only five years apart, that age difference in terms of, you know, the national dialogue or what it was like for her in college compared to w"}
{"id": "1009403840", "date": "2021-06-23", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer Star Megan Rapinoe On Equal Pay, And What The U.S. Flag Means To Her", "question_index": 19, "text": "So, you know, we've talked about your work as a LGBTQ activist. You took a knee in 2016 a week after Colin Kaepernick did. You were 31. You were a veteran of two World Cups and two Olympic Games. And it sounds from your memoir like it was a pretty spontaneous move on your part. Tell us what went through your mind when you did it and what the immediate reaction was.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1009403840", "date": "2021-06-23", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer Star Megan Rapinoe On Equal Pay, And What The U.S. Flag Means To Her", "question_index": 20, "text": "My guest is soccer champion and activist Megan Rapinoe. Her memoir is called \"One Life.\" She's featured in the new documentary about the ongoing fight for equal pay for the U.S. women's national soccer team. It starts streaming on HBO Max tomorrow. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...For most people, I would say. But I think bad in the mainstream sense, bad in the, you know, Twittersphere and all of that but - and bad among, you know, white people. But, actually, I would say th"}
{"id": "1009403840", "date": "2021-06-23", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer Star Megan Rapinoe On Equal Pay, And What The U.S. Flag Means To Her", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Megan Rapinoe. She's a champion soccer player. And in 2019, after the U.S. women's national soccer team won its fourth World Cup, she was awarded the Golden Boot as top scorer and the Golden Ball as the tournament's best player. Rapinoe was also part of the U.S. team which won a gold medal at the 2012 Olympics. She's headed to the Olympics this summer. She's featured in a new documentary about the ongoing fight for equal pay for the U.S. women's national soccer team. It starts streaming on HBO Max tomorrow. I spoke with her in November, after the publication of her memoir \"One Life.\" It was also shortly after she announced her engagement to Sue Bird, a champion player in the WNBA. In 2016, a week after Colin Kaepernick took a knee during the national anthem, Rapinoe took a knee in support and faced the consequences.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...For most people, I would say. But I think bad in the mainstream sense, bad in the, you know, Twittersphere and all of that but - and bad among, you know, white people. But, actually, I would say th"}
{"id": "1009403840", "date": "2021-06-23", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer Star Megan Rapinoe On Equal Pay, And What The U.S. Flag Means To Her", "question_index": 22, "text": "So I want to read something that you reprint in your memoir, and this is what U.S. Soccer said in an official statement. And you say it might as well have been headed, Dear Megan. So the statement was, (reading) representing your country is a privilege and honor for any player or coach that is associated with U.S. Soccer's national team. In front of national and often global audiences, the playing of our national anthem is an opportunity for our men's and women's national team players and coaches to reflect upon the liberties and freedom we all appreciate in the country. As part of the privilege to represent your country, we have an expectation that our players and coaches will stand and honor our flag while the national anthem is played. What was your action - your reaction when you read that statement?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...For most people, I would say. But I think bad in the mainstream sense, bad in the, you know, Twittersphere and all of that but - and bad among, you know, white people. But, actually, I would say th"}
{"id": "1009403840", "date": "2021-06-23", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer Star Megan Rapinoe On Equal Pay, And What The U.S. Flag Means To Her", "question_index": 23, "text": "What are some of the repercussions you faced professionally?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I couldn't believe it. I think I was truly sort of dumbstruck. It really upset me. The nerve and the audacity to say what they did in that statement - it is an honor and a privilege that we all have i"}
{"id": "1009403840", "date": "2021-06-23", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer Star Megan Rapinoe On Equal Pay, And What The U.S. Flag Means To Her", "question_index": 24, "text": "Were you taken out of the lineup?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They're sort of gray repercussions, I'll say. You know, in - like, in terms of sponsorships, I didn't lose any sponsorships, which I think is great. Obviously, Nike's a big sponsor of mine. They have "}
{"id": "1009403840", "date": "2021-06-23", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer Star Megan Rapinoe On Equal Pay, And What The U.S. Flag Means To Her", "question_index": 25, "text": "And did you regret kneeling because of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In a sense, yes. So this is where the gray part comes in. I - you know, I was - I had played in those two games, in the first two games that I had, you know, knelt. I think that was in October or so. "}
{"id": "1009403840", "date": "2021-06-23", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer Star Megan Rapinoe On Equal Pay, And What The U.S. Flag Means To Her", "question_index": 26, "text": "U.S. Soccer did eventually lift the ban. When did they lift it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no. No, definitely not. I mean, I think, honestly, the only thing that I regret maybe was when I came back, that I didn't keep kneeling. That's something that I feel like I still struggle with, yo"}
{"id": "1009403840", "date": "2021-06-23", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer Star Megan Rapinoe On Equal Pay, And What The U.S. Flag Means To Her", "question_index": 27, "text": "And did Colin Kaepernick ever get in touch with you after you kneeled?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As, you know, the tragic murder of George Floyd, Ahmaud Arbery and Breonna Taylor, as the protests subsequently, you know, swept the nation, I think that they realized that that policy not only is now"}
{"id": "1009403840", "date": "2021-06-23", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer Star Megan Rapinoe On Equal Pay, And What The U.S. Flag Means To Her", "question_index": 28, "text": "And he certainly faced consequences for kneeling.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes, we - yeah, we're in touch with each other, for sure."}
{"id": "1009403840", "date": "2021-06-23", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer Star Megan Rapinoe On Equal Pay, And What The U.S. Flag Means To Her", "question_index": 29, "text": "My guest is women's soccer star Megan Rapinoe. We'll be back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he certainly did and, I think, still is. Yeah, I think he's very much still being blackballed. I mean, I think the sentiment among many of the NFL owners still and among Roger Goodell still, wha"}
{"id": "1009403840", "date": "2021-06-23", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer Star Megan Rapinoe On Equal Pay, And What The U.S. Flag Means To Her", "question_index": 30, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to our interview with soccer star Megan Rapinoe. She's featured in the new documentary \"LFG\" about the ongoing fight for equal pay for the U.S. women's national soccer team. It starts streaming on HBO Max tomorrow. Her memoir is called \"One Life.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he certainly did and, I think, still is. Yeah, I think he's very much still being blackballed. I mean, I think the sentiment among many of the NFL owners still and among Roger Goodell still, wha"}
{"id": "1009403840", "date": "2021-06-23", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer Star Megan Rapinoe On Equal Pay, And What The U.S. Flag Means To Her", "question_index": 31, "text": "One of the things you write about in your memoir is your older brother. He's the person who kind of got you started in soccer because he's older than you are and was playing before you played and got you interested in the sport. When he was in his teens, he started using drugs - opioids, meth and heroin - and he spent a lot of time in and out of prison and spent a lot of time in solitary confinement. And you write that there was a period when he joined a white supremacist gang inside prison and came home with a swastika tattoo. How were you able - have you been able to reconcile the person he became in prison and the brother that you grew up with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he certainly did and, I think, still is. Yeah, I think he's very much still being blackballed. I mean, I think the sentiment among many of the NFL owners still and among Roger Goodell still, wha"}
{"id": "1009403840", "date": "2021-06-23", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer Star Megan Rapinoe On Equal Pay, And What The U.S. Flag Means To Her", "question_index": 32, "text": "Is he comfortable with you writing about him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I think that we do not understand, as people who have never been in prison - I don't think we really understand prison society is very different from normal society. Not like a, you know, whol"}
{"id": "1009403840", "date": "2021-06-23", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer Star Megan Rapinoe On Equal Pay, And What The U.S. Flag Means To Her", "question_index": 33, "text": "We're living in a very divisive time. You got a lot of criticism in addition to a lot of praise for taking a knee shortly after Colin Kaepernick did. So you represent American teams in the Olympics and in the World Cup. What does the flag mean to you? What does, like, you know, American pride, national pride mean to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I'm sure sometimes he's not. Probably in the better times he is. You know, it's difficult 'cause I feel like when he gets really sober, you know, he's about all these things. He was working really h"}
{"id": "1009403840", "date": "2021-06-23", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer Star Megan Rapinoe On Equal Pay, And What The U.S. Flag Means To Her", "question_index": 34, "text": "So you're very stylish in your streetwear and in red carpet looks and - I forget which trophy that you won, but you wore - it was like a gown with a plunged neckline - very stylish and elegant and very feminine. And you're somebody who used to always dress like a boy when you were young. Oh, and I should mention, like, during one big game, you dyed your hair platinum, during another, you dyed it pink. So when did that happen", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I see American pride or at least my personal pride or what I think that the flag should mean is, like, an impossible standard in which we are always trying to get to. Like, we're not there. We were ne"}
{"id": "1009403840", "date": "2021-06-23", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer Star Megan Rapinoe On Equal Pay, And What The U.S. Flag Means To Her", "question_index": 35, "text": "that you became conscious of style?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I see American pride or at least my personal pride or what I think that the flag should mean is, like, an impossible standard in which we are always trying to get to. Like, we're not there. We were ne"}
{"id": "1009403840", "date": "2021-06-23", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer Star Megan Rapinoe On Equal Pay, And What The U.S. Flag Means To Her", "question_index": 36, "text": "You've said that one of the things that sets the U.S team apart is that you always believe that you'll win. And, in fact, like, we believe that we will win is even a chant at your games. So is that how you're naturally inclined, or did you have to fool yourself into thinking - into actually believing that you will win? And can you teach me how to do that? I'm such", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I think I've always been conscious of style. I think I'm much more stylish now than I used to be. But I think I've always been - you know, I've always like had jewelry or tied little things "}
{"id": "1009403840", "date": "2021-06-23", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer Star Megan Rapinoe On Equal Pay, And What The U.S. Flag Means To Her", "question_index": 37, "text": "- I am not a - like, yes, I know I will be great. I know I will win", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I think I've always been conscious of style. I think I'm much more stylish now than I used to be. But I think I've always been - you know, I've always like had jewelry or tied little things "}
{"id": "1009403840", "date": "2021-06-23", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer Star Megan Rapinoe On Equal Pay, And What The U.S. Flag Means To Her", "question_index": 38, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I think I've always been conscious of style. I think I'm much more stylish now than I used to be. But I think I've always been - you know, I've always like had jewelry or tied little things "}
{"id": "1009403840", "date": "2021-06-23", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer Star Megan Rapinoe On Equal Pay, And What The U.S. Flag Means To Her", "question_index": 39, "text": "Wait. What do you do to embarrass yourself to win?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "to win a game, I think. Like, we would go that far because it's just..."}
{"id": "1009403840", "date": "2021-06-23", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer Star Megan Rapinoe On Equal Pay, And What The U.S. Flag Means To Her", "question_index": 40, "text": "Megan Rapinoe, thank you so much for talking with us. And congratulations, again, on your engagement and also on the new book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We don't care if we're down 4-0. We will never give up. We don't care if we look stupid or whatever. Like, we'll just - we just focus on winning and never giving up. I think it's more of the never giv"}
{"id": "1009403840", "date": "2021-06-23", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer Star Megan Rapinoe On Equal Pay, And What The U.S. Flag Means To Her", "question_index": 41, "text": "My interview with Megan Rapinoe was recorded in November after the publication of her memoir, \"One Life.\" She's featured in a new documentary about the fight for equal pay for the U.S. women's national soccer team. It will start streaming on HBO Max tomorrow. She's heading with the team to Tokyo for the Olympics. After we take a short break, Ken Tucker will review new albums by Chrissie Hynde singing Dylan songs and Shannon McNally doing songs associated with country singer Waylon Jennings. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me on."}
{"id": "1009839021", "date": "2021-06-24", "guest": "Tyler Kingkade", "title": "Uncovering Who Is Driving The Fight Against Critical Race Theory In Schools", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. A battle in the culture war is being fought over critical race theory, which many conservatives say is being taught in K-12 schools. Critical race theory, CRT, examines the impact of systemic racism on American laws and institutions and is taught in some university programs. But K-12 teachers and schools that address racism in American history or America today have been accused of indoctrinating students by teaching CRT. There are now at least 165 local and national groups that are trying to disrupt or block lessons on race and gender, according to an NBC News analysis. These groups are being reinforced by conservative think tanks, media outlets and law firms. The tactics include disrupting school board meetings, ousting liberal school board members and harassing parents who support teaching about equity issues. Legislation has been drafted to ban teaching CRT. Tuesday night, at a school board meeting in Loudoun County, Va., a fight broke out, a man was arrested, and the meeting was shut down. Two-hundred-sixty people had signed up to speak. Many were protesting the teaching of critical race theory in the schools. Yesterday, at a House Armed Services Committee hearing, the chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General Mark Milley, was asked a challenging question by Matt Gaetz, a Republican congressman from Florida, about teaching CRT in service academies. Milley forcefully pushed back. Yesterday morning, I recorded the interview we're about to hear with Tyler Kingkade, who has been investigating the people and the money behind this anti-CRT movement and their tactics and larger goals. He's a national investigative reporter at NBC News. He focuses on vulnerable populations, civil rights issues, education, sexual harassment and assault cases and the treatment of teens in traumatic situations. Tyler Kingkade, welcome to FRESH AIR. Let's start with the basics. What is critical race theory?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1009839021", "date": "2021-06-24", "guest": "Tyler Kingkade", "title": "Uncovering Who Is Driving The Fight Against Critical Race Theory In Schools", "question_index": 1, "text": "So my understanding is that critical race theory started at the university level, and I think it actually started in law schools. But the big debate now is really being waged on the local school level - grade school. So how is critical race theory being defined by its opponents?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hi, Terry. Thank you for having me. Critical race theory is really a legal academic concept that was developed in the '70s and '80s. Derrick Bell is considered the father of the concept. Kimberle Cren"}
{"id": "1009839021", "date": "2021-06-24", "guest": "Tyler Kingkade", "title": "Uncovering Who Is Driving The Fight Against Critical Race Theory In Schools", "question_index": 2, "text": "Are the critics of CRT being taught in the schools - or what they define as CRT being taught in the schools - are they basically denying that racism has been woven into American history?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So you have a situation where virtually all school districts confronted about this are saying, we don't teach critical race theory. It's not part of our curriculum. But opponents are using crit"}
{"id": "1009839021", "date": "2021-06-24", "guest": "Tyler Kingkade", "title": "Uncovering Who Is Driving The Fight Against Critical Race Theory In Schools", "question_index": 3, "text": "So, you know, one of the objections to the teaching of critical race theory in K-12 schools - and you refer to this - is that it's divisive. It teaches divisive concepts. What are some of the things that are considered to be divisive concepts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would say, to an extent, they are. I've talked to a lot of parents on the side of opposing critical race theory, and many of them have told me they don't believe that systemic racism exists. I've ha"}
{"id": "1009839021", "date": "2021-06-24", "guest": "Tyler Kingkade", "title": "Uncovering Who Is Driving The Fight Against Critical Race Theory In Schools", "question_index": 4, "text": "The objections to the teaching of critical race theory kind of date back to the protests last summer over the police killing of George Floyd. So what's the connection?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I just - even the notion of talking about white privilege is seen as divisive or, you know, it gets back to talking about the issues at the heart of the Black Lives Matter movement, about whethe"}
{"id": "1009839021", "date": "2021-06-24", "guest": "Tyler Kingkade", "title": "Uncovering Who Is Driving The Fight Against Critical Race Theory In Schools", "question_index": 5, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is NBC investigative reporter Tyler Kingkade. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "a lot of Americans have gone through in their education. And so very early on, educators were really taking the lead and saying, I want to do more - to do my part addressing this. And before there wer"}
{"id": "1009839021", "date": "2021-06-24", "guest": "Tyler Kingkade", "title": "Uncovering Who Is Driving The Fight Against Critical Race Theory In Schools", "question_index": 6, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with NBC investigative reporter Tyler Kingkade. He's been reporting on how the right has mobilized against the teaching of critical race theory, the study of systemic racism, leading to the ousting of school board members accused of supporting teaching it and the drafting of legislation to ban teaching it. You've been reporting not on reflective conversations between adults who disagree about how racism should be addressed in the schools. You're reporting on pretty aggressive tactics on the local levels, and school boards seem to be under attack in some areas by opponents of CRT. Describe some of the tactics that have been used against school boards and school board members.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "a lot of Americans have gone through in their education. And so very early on, educators were really taking the lead and saying, I want to do more - to do my part addressing this. And before there wer"}
{"id": "1009839021", "date": "2021-06-24", "guest": "Tyler Kingkade", "title": "Uncovering Who Is Driving The Fight Against Critical Race Theory In Schools", "question_index": 7, "text": "There's been threats of violence in Nevada.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In a lot of these, they are getting to be pretty aggressive. And most of these disputes that we've seen and looked at are taking place in smaller towns or in suburbs. So this is not happening generall"}
{"id": "1009839021", "date": "2021-06-24", "guest": "Tyler Kingkade", "title": "Uncovering Who Is Driving The Fight Against Critical Race Theory In Schools", "question_index": 8, "text": "So you mentioned that some school board members who are seen as supporting teaching CRT and who aren't, like, opposed to it - that they've been vilified, and they're actually physically afraid. They need security. What are some of the things happening at school board meetings now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, in a lot of school districts in Nevada, in Arizona, in many others, they've had to move to - back from in-person school board meetings, back to remote meetings because of security concerns. They"}
{"id": "1009839021", "date": "2021-06-24", "guest": "Tyler Kingkade", "title": "Uncovering Who Is Driving The Fight Against Critical Race Theory In Schools", "question_index": 9, "text": "The Nevada Family Alliance proposed putting body cameras on teachers to make sure that they weren't teaching critical race theory. What was the reaction to that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This week in multiple states, in Texas, in Virginia, in California, there have been crowds that arrive at these school board meetings carrying signs, making noise, chanting stop CRT before a school bo"}
{"id": "1009839021", "date": "2021-06-24", "guest": "Tyler Kingkade", "title": "Uncovering Who Is Driving The Fight Against Critical Race Theory In Schools", "question_index": 10, "text": "One of the goals of this movement seems to be to oust liberal school board members. How many school board members have been ousted already by the movement?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That idea of putting body cameras on teachers is something that, as you said, has been proposed in Nevada by a conservative group. That's also something that's gained steam on certain corners of"}
{"id": "1009839021", "date": "2021-06-24", "guest": "Tyler Kingkade", "title": "Uncovering Who Is Driving The Fight Against Critical Race Theory In Schools", "question_index": 11, "text": "So another thing that's been happening to school boards is that many school boards feel like they are under attack because the conservative groups are demanding that the school boards make records public, like hundreds or thousands of records. And for a little school board, that can be really hard to do. It's time-consuming. It could be expensive. Talk a little bit about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So far, there's only been a handful. But according to research that we've gotten through Ballotpedia, which is a website that tracks a lot of this, there have been more school board recall initiatives"}
{"id": "1009839021", "date": "2021-06-24", "guest": "Tyler Kingkade", "title": "Uncovering Who Is Driving The Fight Against Critical Race Theory In Schools", "question_index": 12, "text": "Let's take another break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is NBC investigative reporter Tyler Kingkade. We'll talk more about the conservative movement opposing the teaching of critical race theory after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. This is an interesting phenomenon. And it's one that - you know, I'm a reporter. And I file a ton of records requests. It's a very common part of my job. I'm all for open government. But this ha"}
{"id": "1009839021", "date": "2021-06-24", "guest": "Tyler Kingkade", "title": "Uncovering Who Is Driving The Fight Against Critical Race Theory In Schools", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with NBC investigative reporter Tyler Kingkade. We're talking about the new conservative movement that has mobilized against the teaching of critical race theory. Critical race theory is the study of systemic racism, but this movement has included the study of equity issues, about equality, under this umbrella. This movement has led to the ousting of school board members accused of supporting teaching critical race theory and the drafting of legislation to ban teaching it. Kingkade has been investigating the people, money and strategy behind this movement. Prominent Republican figures are rushing in to support the parent activists who are protesting the teaching of what they describe as critical race theory. Why are Republican figures rushing in to support this? Do they have larger goals? What are their goals?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. This is an interesting phenomenon. And it's one that - you know, I'm a reporter. And I file a ton of records requests. It's a very common part of my job. I'm all for open government. But this ha"}
{"id": "1009839021", "date": "2021-06-24", "guest": "Tyler Kingkade", "title": "Uncovering Who Is Driving The Fight Against Critical Race Theory In Schools", "question_index": 14, "text": "Yeah. Let me let me quote what Steve Bannon said on a podcast. He said, \"the path to save the nation is very simple. It's going to go through the school boards.\" So expand a little bit more about what it would mean to have conservative-leaning school boards, what it would mean for conservative politics and politicians.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "nomination with the Democratic or Republican Party, but they are still elections. And so I think there is a sense - that has been, you know, explained by Steve Bannon, former Trump advisor, for exampl"}
{"id": "1009839021", "date": "2021-06-24", "guest": "Tyler Kingkade", "title": "Uncovering Who Is Driving The Fight Against Critical Race Theory In Schools", "question_index": 15, "text": "Trump, when he was president, weighed in on critical race theory, too. He issued an executive order - I think this was last September - ordering the Office of Management and Budget to stop funding training on CRT for federal employees, and he called the training a propaganda effort. What was he trying to do? In what way was the Office of Management and Budget funding the training of CRT?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, and to an extent, like, conservatives have already tried to get on school boards and have been on school boards. In some of these cases, these are school districts that already have people who s"}
{"id": "1009839021", "date": "2021-06-24", "guest": "Tyler Kingkade", "title": "Uncovering Who Is Driving The Fight Against Critical Race Theory In Schools", "question_index": 16, "text": "So there has been legislation drafted on the state level to ban the teaching of critical race theory in schools. How far has that gotten so far?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This was in an order that President Trump gave after hearing about some of these trainings on Fox News. There's a conservative activist named Christopher Rufo who takes credit for inspiring this execu"}
{"id": "1009839021", "date": "2021-06-24", "guest": "Tyler Kingkade", "title": "Uncovering Who Is Driving The Fight Against Critical Race Theory In Schools", "question_index": 17, "text": "There's a group called ALEC, which is an acronym for the American Legislative Exchange Council. And what they do is draft model legislation that can be used - conservative model legislation that can be used by states as a template. How has ALEC gotten involved in this fight about CRT?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, so a handful of states have already passed some version of a ban on either critical race theory or the teaching of divisive concepts in schools. And this is something we found in our reporting, "}
{"id": "1009839021", "date": "2021-06-24", "guest": "Tyler Kingkade", "title": "Uncovering Who Is Driving The Fight Against Critical Race Theory In Schools", "question_index": 18, "text": "All right, let's take another short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is NBC investigative reporter Tyler Kingkade. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So ALEC, like the Heritage Foundation, is one of the groups that have been hosting webinars, especially over the winter between the election and the inauguration of Biden, to talk about critical"}
{"id": "1009839021", "date": "2021-06-24", "guest": "Tyler Kingkade", "title": "Uncovering Who Is Driving The Fight Against Critical Race Theory In Schools", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with NBC investigative reporter Tyler Kingkade. He's been reporting on how the right has mobilized against the teaching of critical race theory, the study of systemic racism, leading to the ousting of school board members accused of supporting teaching it and the drafting of legislation to ban teaching it. Who are some of the people, what are some of the groups that are backing the opposition to the teaching of critical race theory in the schools?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So ALEC, like the Heritage Foundation, is one of the groups that have been hosting webinars, especially over the winter between the election and the inauguration of Biden, to talk about critical"}
{"id": "1009839021", "date": "2021-06-24", "guest": "Tyler Kingkade", "title": "Uncovering Who Is Driving The Fight Against Critical Race Theory In Schools", "question_index": 20, "text": "And, of course, conservative media has played a big role in amplifying the anti-CRT message. We mentioned Tucker Carlson. What else has been happening on conservative media that is making this into a really big conservative issue?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So one of the first groups that sprouted up around this started last summer. It's called No Left Turn in Education. It was started by a mother living in a suburb of Philadelphia who was upset wi"}
{"id": "1009839021", "date": "2021-06-24", "guest": "Tyler Kingkade", "title": "Uncovering Who Is Driving The Fight Against Critical Race Theory In Schools", "question_index": 21, "text": "And other conservative outlets have been amplifying the message, too. And just this week, right-wing talk show host Michael Savage was on the right-wing news site Newsmax. And he said that the teaching of what he describes as critical race theory in schools is, like, exactly what was done to the Jews in Germany. And it's the road to the death camps for white people. And then the co-host of the show, Steve Cortes, had earlier say, I'd prefer to call it anti-white racism because, let's face it, no matter what flavor this takes or what shape this takes, the goal always is to shame white people. So this is becoming a big national issue. Do you think conservatives are hoping this will affect the vote during the midterm elections, that it will be a hot-button issue that drives people - that drives conservatives to the polls?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. This is something that has been mentioned, at this point, as of mid-June, over 1,300 times on Fox News within the past few months. There is coverage daily on Fox News. And Fox News is really the"}
{"id": "1009839021", "date": "2021-06-24", "guest": "Tyler Kingkade", "title": "Uncovering Who Is Driving The Fight Against Critical Race Theory In Schools", "question_index": 22, "text": "It's such a confusing issue for some people because what's being taught in the schools isn't critical race theory, because critical race theory is something that pertains to the university level. It's, you know, it's an academic pursuit. It's not something you're going to learn in kindergarten or sixth grade or seventh grade. But the idea of racism and equity is something that is being introduced in schools. But that's not the language that the opposition is using. They're not saying we're against children learning that there's racism in American history. So do you think that the way this conservative movement is positioning and describing CRT is misleading?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is definitely something that people in conservative, in Republican circles think is going to help them in elections. This is something that aides to Republican campaigns have said is something they"}
{"id": "1009839021", "date": "2021-06-24", "guest": "Tyler Kingkade", "title": "Uncovering Who Is Driving The Fight Against Critical Race Theory In Schools", "question_index": 23, "text": "Well, Tyler Kingkade, thank you for your reporting. And thank you for talking with us on FRESH AIR. I really appreciate it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, certainly. I've talked to many parents at this point who said when they first heard the word equity, they thought it meant the same thing as equality. And only later did they find out a different"}
{"id": "1009839021", "date": "2021-06-24", "guest": "Tyler Kingkade", "title": "Uncovering Who Is Driving The Fight Against Critical Race Theory In Schools", "question_index": 24, "text": "Tyler Kingkade is an investigative reporter with NBC News. After we take a short break, jazz critic Kevin Whitehead will review the two albums bass player Mario Pavone recorded as a kind of final statement when he knew he was in the end stage of cancer. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me, Terry. It's been great to talk."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 0, "text": "Bruce Springsteen, welcome to FRESH AIR. And thank you for welcoming us into your studio. I'd love it if you would start by reading the very opening from the foreword of your book. It's really a fantastic book, and I'd like our listeners to just hear a little bit of your writing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. Take two. (Singing) I stood stone-like at midnight, suspended in my masquerade. I combed my hair till it was just right and commanded the night brigade. I was open to pain and crossed by the rain,"}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 1, "text": "Thanks for reading that. So what's it like for you to write something that doesn't have to rhyme and that you don't have to perform on stage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK, my pleasure. (Reading) I come from a boardwalk town where almost everything is tinged with a bit of fraud. So am I. By 20, no race-car-driving rebel. I was a guitar player on the streets of Asbury"}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 2, "text": "Well, that's one of the things I love about the book, is that there is rhythm and music in it even though it's not a song. So many of your songs, particularly the early ones, are about, you know, like, searching for a dream and wanting to, like, bust out of the confines of your life. And in some ways, you know, I get the impression from your book that that was your father's story, except he never found the dream. It's kind of like - a little bit like the story that you describe in your song, \"The River.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's actually - not having to perform it on stage is a good one. But it's a little different, you know? It's - I'm used to writing something, it becomes a record, it comes out. Then I go perform and"}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 3, "text": "Because when you were 19, he moved to California.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it was just incredible for everybody. So you're correct. My parents did really sort of live out a big part of that story. And to a certain degree, he did find his little piece of what he was"}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 4, "text": "Difficult mental illness.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, they moved out West, which was a huge undertaking because no one - it's like - it was like moving to another planet for them. But I think that's what my father wanted to do. He wanted to move to"}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 5, "text": "Do you think the song \"Born To Run\" is in part about him and in part about you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, difficult to manage. But I believe he did feel like he found something there that he couldn't have found at home."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 6, "text": "Except you had a dream in a way that your father maybe didn't have a dream that he could articulate.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And looking back on it, my parents lived out quite a bit of that story themselves."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It certainly wasn't one he could articulate. It was just I got to get out of here."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 8, "text": "So this story, I think, is really interesting. You tell a story how in 1967, there's a lot of friction between you and your father. And you're in your teens. You're growing your hair long. You're into music. And long hair then, probably particularly in the working-class town where you were was a pretty...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And..."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 9, "text": "And a radical thing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was unusual."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 10, "text": "Making a statement", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was an unusual thing. It was."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was an unusual thing. It was."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 12, "text": "You're in a motorcycle accident, got thrown, like, 20 feet, like, really hurt yourself pretty bad. You were in the hospital. You get home. Your father calls in a barber...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You were making a statement."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 13, "text": "...And a barber cuts your hair against your will.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 14, "text": "I'll bet you didn't.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's funny now. I didn't think it was funny then."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 15, "text": "I actually found that an upsetting story because here, like, you barely survived. You're laying there disabled, and your father takes advantage of you and cuts off something that you love, that's part of your identity, when you're already so physically wounded. It just - it felt very unfair to me. How did it feel to you at the time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "the barber was called and Samson's locks were trimmed."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 16, "text": "So you write, too, about your father that he was kind of very - let me quote you because you put it so well - you write that (reading) he loved me, but he couldn't stand me. He felt we competed for my mother's affections. We did. He also saw in me too much of his real self. Inside, beyond his rage, he harbored a gentleness, timidity, shyness and a dreamy insecurity. These were things I wore on the outside and the reflection of these qualities in his boy repelled him. I was soft and he hated soft. Of course, he'd been brought up soft - a mama's boy, just like me. So that timidity and shyness that you wore on the outside, it's kind of like the opposite of your stage persona.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Such was the lay of the land at the time. I mean, of course, I was furious about it at the time. And - but what can you say? It's water under the bridge."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 17, "text": "Can you tell us a little bit more about the timidity and shyness of your youth?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know, it's bizarre."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 18, "text": "So do you think that your stage persona draws both from, like, the angry and uninhibited side of you and the more inhibited, timid side of you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I've got to take my - I've got to take some blame for that myself, I guess. But, yeah, just it was - when I was young, you know, I was very shy. And that was my personality. You know, I was a prett"}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 19, "text": "If you're just joining us, I'm talking to Bruce Springsteen. Let's take a short break here, then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's both there. I think if you just - you know, I think plenty of folks, if you just looked at the outside, it can read - you know, it's pretty alpha male - you know? Which is a little ironic"}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, I'm with Bruce Springsteen. And we're recording this interview in his home studio. So you also lived near the church.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's both there. I think if you just - you know, I think plenty of folks, if you just looked at the outside, it can read - you know, it's pretty alpha male - you know? Which is a little ironic"}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 21, "text": "And church was a part of your life. And you write about Catholicism. (Reading) this is the world where I found the beginnings of my song. In Catholicism, there existed the poetry, danger and darkness that reflected my imagination and my inner self. I found a language of great and harsh beauty, of fantastic stories, of unimaginable punishment and infinite reward. Are there particular, like, bible stories or, like, religious paintings that really made an impression on you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 22, "text": "Maybe especially since the church was just about next-door to you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. It was more just the basics. I think when you're a child, you just cling to the basics, which is the basic story of Jesus and the crucifixion and hell and eternal punishment and the flames. This w"}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 23, "text": "What things were you afraid of, hell?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And..."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 24, "text": "Of eternal damnation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 25, "text": "So when your father told the family that he had to leave New Jersey and go to California, and he was going to do it, he hoped the family came with him, but he was going to go one way or another.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That one, too, you know. So, you know, these were stories that were not stories, you know. They were simply facts. This is what occurred. This is what can occur unless you tow the line, my friend, you"}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 26, "text": "And so he left. Your mother went with him. Your youngest sister went with him. Your sister, who was in the middle was 17, she'd just gotten pregnant. You say she didn't even know how to make toast.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 27, "text": "And your parents left...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 28, "text": "And you were 19. And suddenly, you know, suddenly there were no authority figures in your life. I mean, your parents were gone. Your father wasn't going to, you know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I may be a little harsh on her there. I think she knew how to make toast."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 29, "text": "...Whatever he was doing, he wasn't going to do it anymore.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 30, "text": "He wasn't going to be around. What did that freedom feel like to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 31, "text": "You were already gone?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "By the time I was 19, my parents weren't very authoritative over my life."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 32, "text": "Bruce Springsteen speaking with Terry Gross, recorded in 2016 in Springsteen's home studio. They spoke after the publication of his memoir, which he later adapted into his one-man show which reopened last week on Broadway. Before Broadway went dark in March of 2020, the show was filmed. And that recording is still available on Netflix. We're hear Springsteen talk about the Asbury Park era of his life and more after this short break. And our film critic Justin Chang will review the crime thriller \"No Sudden Move\" starring Don Cheadle and Benicio Del Toro. I'm Dave Davies, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. At the time, I was already down at the shore. And I was staying out overnight and sleeping on the beach and, you know, playing - going - coming home at 3:00, 4:00 a.m. after having played a show"}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 33, "text": "During your early years as a musician, you were in Asbury Park, boardwalk, carnival atmosphere. What did you love about that kind of urban beach, you know?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. Broadway's reopening from the pandemic, and Bruce Springsteen has returned with his one-man show. We're listening to Terry's interview with Spri"}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 34, "text": "And the - you know, Madame Marie and all of the - like, all of the boardwalk regulars. You made great stories out of those characters, great songs out of those characters. But what appealed to you about knowing them and writing about them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 35, "text": "But you connected in some way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was just my location at the time. I didn't move to Asbury with the thought of - you know, it wasn't an anthropological..."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 36, "text": "And that's one of the things that really interests me in comparing you to Dylan because when you first started, people comparing you to Dylan, one of the new Dylans...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Reason. But I went, and I just fit in there. Asbury was down on its luck but not as bad as it would get. And so there was a lot of room to move. You know, clubs were open till 5:00 a.m. There were "}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 37, "text": "...And everything. In some ways, like, persona wise you're the opposite. He changed his name. He surrounded himself in mystery. His lyrics are very obscure. Your lyrics tell stories. You're all about a place. You reveal so much about yourself and the world around you in your songs, you know what I mean? Like, I know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 38, "text": "...I know that you're more than what you literally tell us about in the songs. But still, you have an identity and try to tell us something of who you are in your songs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 39, "text": "I want to quote you again. So you write - this is toward the beginning of your career - (reading) I wanted to be a voice that reflected the experience and the world I live in. So I knew in 1972 that to do this I would need to write very well and more individually than I had ever written before. And this was - at some point you realized, too, that although you had, like, the most popular bar band in Asbury Park, that there was a bigger world. There was a lot of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You just go where your psychology leads you. I think, you know, I've always loved the fact that Bob's been able to sustain his mystery over 50 or 60 years. That's - in this day and age, it's quite a f"}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 40, "text": "...Talented people. And in order to, like, be someone in that world, to have a career, to make a difference that you had to figure out what was unique about you, and you had to write great songs. And in fact, you achieved that. You wrote great songs. But, you know, how did you go about trying to write the best songs that you could, I mean, when you knew that a lot of this was going to depend on the songwriting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 41, "text": "You - you've lived your life - a lot of your life - on the road. And for a lot of your early years, I mean, you were single. You were in monogamous or semi-monogamous", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I thought about signing a record deal or writing something that might put me in the position - because I'd already had plenty of things that had fallen through with my rock bands - I looked at my"}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 42, "text": "relationships, as you describe it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I thought about signing a record deal or writing something that might put me in the position - because I'd already had plenty of things that had fallen through with my rock bands - I looked at my"}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 43, "text": "But you weren't married. You didn't have children. You had a first marriage, and then Patti Scialfa joined the band. And you got married. And you have three children now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 44, "text": "What did it take for you to see family as something that was a wonderful thing, as opposed to something that was going to harm your sense of freedom and flexibility...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 45, "text": "...And creativity?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 46, "text": "Was it helpful to be married to somebody who was in the band?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think for a lot of musicians that's a difficult call because we're - by nature we're transient. We move on. We're people that - like I say in the book, there's folks that stay and there's folks that"}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 47, "text": "Because she would certainly understand what life on the road was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think so."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 48, "text": "...And what being a musician is 'cause she is one.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 49, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Bruce Springsteen. I'm actually his guest because we're recording this in his home studio.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think so. Patti was an artist and a musician. And she was a songwriter. And she was a lot like me in that she was transient also. She worked busking on the streets in New York. She waitressed."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 50, "text": "We're going to take a short break here, and then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 51, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Bruce Springsteen. But as I've said, we're really a guest in his home studio.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 52, "text": "Thank you. You write about redefining what it meant to you to be a man, that you'd learned about the rigidity and the blue-collar narcissism of manhood '50s style from your father. And you learned to always withhold something - you do not lower your mask. Did you consciously rethink what it meant to be a man?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Welcome. Welcome."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 53, "text": "You started going to therapy in 1983. And at some point, you say, in your 60s, you had a really bad depression. And I'm wondering if you thought about during that period when you were very depressed how many people in the world really wanted to be you? And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Well, you know, you're young. And you're always in pursuit your young manhood. You know, you're trying to figure out - what does that mean? What does - you know, there's a lot of pressure on young m"}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 54, "text": "Yeah, right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Doesn't count for that much of the time."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 55, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, but - you know, people see you on stage and, yeah, I'd want to be that guy. I want to be that guy myself very often."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 56, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I get plenty - I have plenty of days where I go, man, I wish I could be that guy. And..."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 57, "text": "You write about how being on stage is almost like medicine for you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "my daily existence."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 58, "text": "You know, does it get you out of yourself? Does it...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 59, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, of course. You're immediately pulled out of the - your - the inside of your head, and it immediately changes your frame of mind. I've never been on stage where I've - no, that's not true. I have b"}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 60, "text": "Do you feel like there's an extrovert and an introvert within you that sometimes compete?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's just nothing weirder you can do. If you're up there thinking about what you're doing, you're just not there and it's not going to happen, you know? So trying to learn how to overcome those - w"}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 61, "text": "As you mention in your book, you wanted to write songs that you wouldn't outgrow, that you could sing as an adult...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I suppose everyone has that. In me, it's just a lot more noticeable. The extremes are a lot greater. I mean, if you see me performing, you're going, that guy is simply the most extrovert"}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 62, "text": "...That weren't just kids' songs. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 63, "text": "...You know, done. Accomplished", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 64, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 65, "text": "But when you sing some of your early songs now, as you still do, like \"Born To Run,\" does the song have a different meaning to you than it did when you first started, you know, performing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 66, "text": "What's an example of a song that's taken on a different meaning or more meaning for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We just had a series of concerts where the show was very interesting 'cause we started out with my earliest material. And we played about half a record off of our first record and then half or three-q"}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 67, "text": "As someone who grew up in Brooklyn and now lives in Philadelphia, I love that you've continued to live in New Jersey - not only in New Jersey, but not far from where you grew up. Why have you stayed close to the home that your father left? Your father went to the opposite coast when you were a teenager.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A lot of the ones that are people's favorites. You know, \"Born To Run,\" that expands every time we go out. It just seems to you - more of your life fills it in, fills in the story. And when we hit it "}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 68, "text": "So we've been recording this interview in your home studio. Would you just tell us a little bit about the studio? I mean, it was built for you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- it's rather ironic. But I just felt very comfortable here. And I was uncomfortable with city life. I was more or less a kid that came out of a small town. And I was a beach bum and loved the ocean a"}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 69, "text": "Yes, 'cause I'm looking through a curtain - well, the curtain's closed now, but when it was open there was, like, a big vintage...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Patti built this studio. She really - she with some help. This was just part of our garage. And..."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 70, "text": "...Car or truck or motorcycles and - yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, there's a lot of motorcycles over there."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 71, "text": "...Most studios don't have a garage attached to it like that", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And there's a lot of - we're surrounded..."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 72, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And there's a lot of - we're surrounded..."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 73, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We're surrounded by vintage automobiles and motorcycles. But this piece of the garage, Patti said, well, let's make a studio out of it because we were using the house across the street to record in fo"}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 74, "text": "Bruce Springsteen, I can't thank you enough for...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We're surrounded by guitars, keyboards, recording decks. It's just paradise."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 75, "text": "...Inviting us into your studio and allowing us to do this interview.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 76, "text": "Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much."}
{"id": "1012177132", "date": "2021-07-02", "guest": "Bruce Springsteen", "title": "Bruce Springsteen: On Jersey, Masculinity And Wishing To Be His Stage Persona", "question_index": 77, "text": "And I really love the book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very enjoyable. I appreciate it."}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We have a great, entertaining show that seems right for the holiday, this Independence Day that comes just a couple of weeks after Juneteenth was declared a national holiday. We're going to hear my interview with composer, pianist, bandleader and singer Jon Batiste and with Batiste at his home piano so he could play and sing for us, including doing his interpretations of the national anthem and the Black national anthem, \"Lift Every Voice.\" This year, Batiste won an Oscar, Golden Globe and a Critics' Choice Award for composing the jazz music for the Pixar animated film \"Soul,\" which is streaming on Disney+. He also arranged and performed that part of the score. Batiste is the music director and bandleader of \"The Late Show With Stephen Colbert.\" During the pandemic lockdown, Batiste got into the streets to perform at protests after George Floyd was killed and to play pop-up performances, including at a mass vaccination site in New York. We recorded our interview in March, after the release of his album \"We Are,\" which reflects his love of soul, R&B, pop, gospel and marching bands, as well as jazz. And of course, you can hear the influence of New Orleans, where he's from and where his family is known for playing music. He started performing with his family's band when he was a child. Let's start with the title track from \"We Are.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 1, "text": "That's the title track of Jon Batiste's new album, \"We Are.\" Jon Batiste, welcome back to FRESH AIR. I love this album. It is great to have you back on the show. What's the backstory of this song? How did you write it? It's - you know, it's the title track of your album. It's the name you've given protests that you've led.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) The ghetto is full of stars. Watch them shine from afar on days when it's hard and always. Nana knows how to sing and soothes us all from summer to fall and always. Joy, she won't let it go."}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 2, "text": "Yeah. So The St. Augustine Marching 100 is on here. That's the marching band from St. Augustine High School, which is a - it's a special high school that you went to. It's a historically Black school. But what else made it special? Like, was it a neighborhood school or sort of a school you had to apply to get into?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep, yep, \"We Are.\" It's the question and it's the answer all in one. And the backstory is really something that happened in a six-day recording session in my dressing room at the Ed Sullivan Theater "}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 3, "text": "I want to play another song from the new album. And this is, like, a very joyful song. It's called \"I Need You.\" And it's so well-produced. I'd love it if you could play, like, the sketch of the song, when the idea for the song was germinating and you were in the process of composing it and it was - when it was still a kind of naked song without all the production. If you could do that for us and then we can hear what it sounds like fully produced, that would be great. Would that be OK?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You have to apply to get into it. It's very rigorous academically. And there's just a lot of family ties there. Many people go there and they're the third or fourth generation by the time that I was t"}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Oh, that's great. Thank you. So let's hear the actual recording of it fully produced from Jon Batiste's new album \"We Are.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that's great. So \"I Need You\" really starts with the bass line. You hear this bass line all throughout American music. (Playing piano). See? (Playing piano). Early rhythm and blues, Black social "}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 5, "text": "That's \"I Need You\" from Jon Batiste's new album \"We Are.\" So, you know, your emphasis in your music is often on joy. And, like, that track, you wrote it before the pandemic or during the pandemic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) We done a lot of living. We working overtime. Don't need another million. You got that gold mine. I love the way you're living 'cause you're so genuine. You got that something special. Didn'"}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 6, "text": "My guest is composer, arranger and pianist and singer Jon Batiste. His latest album is called \"We Are.\" We'll be back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So that track was something that also occurred during the six days that I was in my dressing room at the Ed Sullivan Theater, which - important side note - is the dressing room of the great Carol Burn"}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 7, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with composer, pianist and singer Jon Batiste. His latest album is called \"We Are.\" He's the music director and bandleader on \"The Late Show With Stephen Colbert.\" And this year, he won an Oscar, Golden Globe and Critics' Choice Award for composing the jazz sections of the score for the Pixar film \"Soul,\" which is streaming on Disney+.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So that track was something that also occurred during the six days that I was in my dressing room at the Ed Sullivan Theater, which - important side note - is the dressing room of the great Carol Burn"}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Over the summer, you played at some protests after George Floyd was killed. How did you figure out what mood you wanted to express musically? Because I think there's been something of a discussion about whether these protests should include joy or whether they should just be - you know, express, you know, the anger at the injustices.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So that track was something that also occurred during the six days that I was in my dressing room at the Ed Sullivan Theater, which - important side note - is the dressing room of the great Carol Burn"}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 9, "text": "You've performed the Black national anthem, \"Lift Every Voice,\" and I would love it if you could play that for us now. It's such a stirring song. And it dates back to the early 1900s. It was written with a lyric by James Weldon Johnson and music by his brother J. Rosamond Johnson. And this song has just lived on and become a really important anthem. Tell us what it means to you, when you first heard it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I want to reaffirm people's humanity when it's been under such duress and when it's under attack. Thinking about people who exist in the world at this time, you're constantly bombarded with so much vi"}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Would you play and sing \"Lift Every Voice\" for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "you're going to hear that song. But - I laugh because it just brings back so many memories of community. And really, what I strive to create a lot when I perform - there just is a sense of joy that co"}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 11, "text": "That was beautiful. Oh, thank you so much", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. (Vocalizing, singing) Lift every voice and sing, till Earth and heaven ring, ring with the harmonies of liberty. Let our rejoicing rise high as the listening skies. Let it resound, loud as"}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 12, "text": "- kind of speechless. So, you know, that is a song that has such deep meaning. You've also performed \"The Star-Spangled Banner,\" and you've kind of reclaimed it and rearranged it and put in so many different strains of American music into it. It's a very unsingable song for most people 'cause the range is so big. But you made something really musically wonderful with it. Would you play us your interpretation or one of your many interpretations of \"The Star-Spangled Banner\" and make it your own?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. (Vocalizing, singing) Lift every voice and sing, till Earth and heaven ring, ring with the harmonies of liberty. Let our rejoicing rise high as the listening skies. Let it resound, loud as"}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 13, "text": "Yeah, and it also ends up being a little dissonant at points, which seems appropriate.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I oftentimes think about \"The Star-Spangled Banner\" (playing piano) as something that synthesizes the history of America, warts and all. And in all of my interpretations of it, I try to acknowledge wh"}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 14, "text": "My guest is composer, arranger, pianist and singer Jon Batiste. He's the music director and bandleader on \"The Late Show With Stephen Colbert.\" His latest album is called \"We Are.\" We'll talk more and hear more music after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a tonal allegory, and I think that when you put music in that context, at that event in particular, the reopening of the NBA season, all of the players kneeling in arms, representing so much of w"}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded in March with composer, pianist and singer Jon Batiste. He's the music director and bandleader for \"The Late Show With Stephen Colbert.\" This year, he won an Oscar, Golden Globe and Critics' Choice Award for composing the jazz parts of the score for the animated film \"Soul,\" which is streaming on Disney+. His latest album is called \"We Are.\" He was at his home piano for our interview. When we left off, he had played his blended version of the national anthem and the Black national anthem, \"Lift Every Voice.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) When I move my body just like this, I don't know why, but I feel like freedom. I hear a song that takes me back, and I let go with so much freedom. Free to live how I'm going to live. I'm go"}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 16, "text": "You've also played a more kind of upbeat, like, joyful version of the national anthem that includes different styles of American music, and I'm wondering if you could do some of that for us, to show what you did with that to make a musical statement.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) When I move my body just like this, I don't know why, but I feel like freedom. I hear a song that takes me back, and I let go with so much freedom. Free to live how I'm going to live. I'm go"}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", that's what it sounds like to me in this context. So - (playing piano). And then - (playing piano). Now, that's back to the church, Sunday morning - hallelujah. So you see this chord - (playing pian"}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 18, "text": "Oh, wow", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it goes (vocalizing, playing piano). Oh. And then, you know, it is about to happen. So I do the build. (Playing piano). And that's, like, a typical kind of left-hand built. List - (playing piano) -"}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 19, "text": ". That is so great. Thank you so much for that. That is by far the most inclusive version of the national anthem that I have ever heard. You bring so much into that musically and the subtext of all that music, all in one thing. Thank you for walking us through that. It was just fantastic.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it goes (vocalizing, playing piano). Oh. And then, you know, it is about to happen. So I do the build. (Playing piano). And that's, like, a typical kind of left-hand built. List - (playing piano) -"}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 20, "text": "How often do you play that? Like, what are the occasions when you play that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 21, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is composer, arranger and pianist and singer Jon Batiste. He has a new album called \"We Are.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I would play it all the time back around 2013. You know, that's when I made the arrangement. But I literally have played it at the protests that we've done, at the voter registration rallies we'"}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jon Batiste, the music director and bandleader of \"The Late Show With Stephen Colbert.\" We recorded this in March, after he won a Golden Globe and Critics' Choice Award for composing music for the Pixar film \"Soul.\" After the interview, he won an Oscar for the score. In addition to composing sections of the score for \"Soul,\" he arranged and performed the jazz on the soundtrack. We talked about writing music for the film.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I would play it all the time back around 2013. You know, that's when I made the arrangement. But I literally have played it at the protests that we've done, at the voter registration rallies we'"}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 23, "text": "This year has been quite a year for you 'cause in addition to the pandemic and the police killings and having - you know, having to work from home for late night, you've also, you know, just won two big awards for the score for \"Soul,\" the animated film \"Soul,\" which is a terrific film. And so I thought I'd switch over to talking a little bit about \"Soul.\" This is a different kind of musical writing for you because you're underscoring an animated film. It's not just composing a song that's expressing your feelings. It has to further - it has to, you know, underscore the storyline. It has to be music that's underneath the action that's happening. I was wondering if you could talk about a scene that you did the underscoring for and, you know, play us and describe the thinking behind what you came up with.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I would play it all the time back around 2013. You know, that's when I made the arrangement. But I literally have played it at the protests that we've done, at the voter registration rallies we'"}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 24, "text": "And 22 is a soul who hasn't inhabited a body yet, and she's voiced by Tina Fey. And she's very skeptical about going to Earth and being in a body and having to live life on Earth, so", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 25, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 26, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. This - (playing piano) I wanted to take that pentatonic sound, that sound - pentatonic is a five-note scale that feels very pure. It is - (playing piano) - when you go through the cycle of"}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 27, "text": "What did you have to learn...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So those harmonies - (playing piano) - those harmonies point towards the celestial, those moments in life that are both physical and metaphysical, those moments in life where we feel the connection to"}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 28, "text": "That's the message of the movie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, that sound. Oh, that makes me so emotional when you hear that - (playing piano, vocalizing). Then I took, you know, those kind of, like, Alice Coltrane sort of melodies. Woo, man. There's so much "}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 29, "text": "That is the message of the movie. It's time for us to take another break. So let's do that and then we'll talk some more.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's great."}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 30, "text": "My guest is Jon Batiste. He is the music director and bandleader on \"The Late Show With Stephen Colbert.\" We'll be back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's great."}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 31, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with composer, pianist and singer Jon Batiste. His latest album is called \"We Are.\" He's the music director and bandleader on \"The Late Show With Stephen Colbert.\" And this year, he won an Oscar, Golden Globe and Critics' Choice Award for composing the jazz sections of the score for the animated film \"Soul,\" which is streaming on Disney+.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's great."}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 32, "text": "The close-credit music for \"Soul\" is the Curtis Mayfield song \"It's All Right,\" which you sing on the close credits. It's so - it was such a surprise and so wonderful to hear you do that. You're singing in your falsetto for this. And it made me wonder was, like, Curtis Mayfield a big influence on you? Did you listen to him a lot?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's great."}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 33, "text": "Was it your choice to use that? I mean, 'cause it actually has the word soul on it - you've got soul, and everybody knows that it's all right. So it not only feels...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. He writes contemporary Black hymns. He writes hymns for humanity. His music is something that I really aspire to both lyrically. And also, the way that he sings - he has that way of singing the f"}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 34, "text": "Would you do a little bit more of that for us - of the song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You've got soul, and everybody knows - yeah - that it's all right. Woo, it's all right. Oh, my goodness. You heard that? I did that on purpose, but I didn't know if anybody heard that."}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 35, "text": "It's funny. That song seems to really fit into your aesthetic", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". (Playing piano, singing) It's all right 'cause it's all right. It's all right. Have a good time 'cause it's all right. Whoa, it's all right."}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 36, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". (Playing piano, singing) It's all right 'cause it's all right. It's all right. Have a good time 'cause it's all right. Whoa, it's all right."}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 37, "text": "That's really wonderful", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 38, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 39, "text": "Thank you. It feels very good for me to hear it. Thank you. Thank you so much for that. Would you end with a hymn or, you know, a spiritual gospel song for us? I know you sometimes do this kind of music at your pop-up performances and street performances, and it would just be a beautiful way to end.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it feels so good."}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 40, "text": "That was beautiful. Jon Batiste, you're just so wonderful", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. (Playing melodica, playing piano, singing) Just a closer walk with thee, grant it, Jesus, is my plea. Daily walking close to thee, oh, let it be, dear Lord, let it be."}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 41, "text": ". Thank you so much for your generosity in playing for us on today's show. And thank you for all of your music and for your work on \"The Late Show With Stephen Colbert\" - just so much that you do. It's just been a pleasure to have you on our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. (Playing melodica, playing piano, singing) Just a closer walk with thee, grant it, Jesus, is my plea. Daily walking close to thee, oh, let it be, dear Lord, let it be."}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 42, "text": "Oh, I am", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you for having me. It's always a joy, and I am looking forward to the next time."}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 43, "text": ". And I'm going to take you up on that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you for having me. It's always a joy, and I am looking forward to the next time."}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 44, "text": "Thank you so much. Jon Batiste is music director and bandleader on \"The Late Show With Stephen Colbert.\" He won an Oscar for composing music for the film \"Soul,\" which is streaming on Disney+. His latest album is called \"We Are.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you for having me. It's always a joy, and I am looking forward to the next time."}
{"id": "1012207034", "date": "2021-07-05", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "Jon Batiste On Sharing Joy In A Painful Year: 'I Want To Reaffirm People's Humanity'", "question_index": 45, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley, Kayla Lattimore and Joel Wolfram. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) We are, we are, we are, we are, we are the golden ones. We are, we are, we are, we are the chosen ones. We are, we are, we are, we are, we are the chosen ones. We are, we are, we are, we are"}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. While serving a 60-year sentence with no possibility of parole for an armed robbery in New Orleans that he insisted he didn't commit, Yutico Briley wrote dozens of letters to lawyers, innocence projects and anyone he thought could help him get out of prison. In 2019, after seven years in prison, he heard my guest Emily Bazelon interviewed on FRESH AIR. We were talking about her book \"Charged,\" about how prosecutors had gained breathtaking power in the past 40 years and used it to put more people in prison, ripping apart poor communities, mostly Black or brown. Briley wrote to her, but she didn't even read his letter until a couple of months later when a librarian in Oregon, who corresponded with Briley through a support program for incarcerated people, got in touch with Bazelon, saying, Briley was trying to contact her. Bazelon found Briley's letter, began corresponding with him and became convinced his case was worth looking into. She contacted several lawyers, who declined to represent him, so she tried her sister Lara Bazelon, a professor of law at the University of San Francisco, where she runs a criminal justice clinic. Lara took on the case, and with the help of her students, a private detective and Emily, she was able to appeal Briley's case. He was exonerated in March. We'll hear from Briley later in the show. But first, Emily Bazelon is going to tell us why she thinks Briley's conviction and sentence seem typical of the inequality and waste of mass incarceration. Emily Bazelon's article about the case is the cover story of The New York Times magazine, where she's a staff writer. She covers criminal justice. Although she has a law degree, she's never practiced law. She's a lecturer at Yale Law School. Emily Bazelon, welcome back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 1, "text": "You'd never intervened in a case before, although you've gotten many, many letters from prisoners asking for your help. Why did you decide to keep looking further into Yutico Briley's case?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks so much for having me."}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 2, "text": "One of the reasons Yutico wrote you was because of something that you said about guns and young people arrested for carrying a gun without a permit. Tell us what you'd said and how relevant that was to his story and his imprisonment.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I've asked myself that question a lot of times because I don't think I really had such a clear reason when I did it. You know, part of it was just that I could tell there was just this smart"}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 3, "text": "One of the reasons why he was arrested was because a gun fell out of his pocket. Tell us the story of how he was arrested.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I was reporting for my book \"Charged,\" which I talked about on FRESH AIR - and that's how Yutico found out about me - I reported a lot on young men in Brooklyn who are carrying guns. And they sai"}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 4, "text": "And how did he end up being booked for the crime of the armed robbery?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So he was walking down the street one night in New Orleans in this neighborhood called Mid-City. He was with a few friends. It was, like, 8 o'clock at night. He says they were just walking down the st"}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 5, "text": "Now, you mentioned he was out on parole. That was for possession and intent to sell. It was not a violent crime.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So in his telling, the next morning, he's in jail, and they give him this red bracelet. And the bracelets in jail are color-coded for different kinds of offenses, and red is for a violent offense. And"}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 6, "text": "So you mentioned the person who was robbed and who identified Yutico as being the person who robbed him at gunpoint. And the evidence that you mentioned was that he was a Black person, a young man wearing a hoodie. That describes, like, so many people. It doesn't seem like a whole lot of evidence to convict someone on. And you mentioned that it was dark and that the victim was white and the - and Briley is Black. And it's harder for people to identify people when the person they're identifying is from another race, which is interesting, but that's what the research shows. There were other problems in the identification that are sometimes typical of things that go wrong. One of the problems was, there wasn't a lineup. He was - you know, the victim was just presented with Yutico and said, hey, is this the guy? What's wrong with that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. When he was 17, he was arrested for possession and intent to sell drugs, and he was convicted and given a short jail sentence. But then he was still on parole for that offense when he wa"}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 7, "text": "But you describe research that questions identification in the first place, that it's often really hard for the victim to truly know, hours later or days later, if a person who they're shown is really the perpetrator.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, so this is a police procedure I had actually never heard of before. It's called a show-up. And so what happened in this case was, they arrested Yutico for this unrelated offense of this - having"}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 8, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Emily Bazelon. Her article \"Can You Please Help Me Get Out Of Prison?\" is the cover story of this week's New York Times Magazine. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So that's another problem with the show-up in this case. It did not take place immediately after the armed robbery. It was 20 hours later. And over time, eyewitnesses' memories tend to blur. The"}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Emily Bazelon, a journalist who writes about the criminal justice system. Yutico's lawyer was James Williams - his first lawyer. And you say that people like you who cover the criminal justice system know him by reputation. What's his reputation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So that's another problem with the show-up in this case. It did not take place immediately after the armed robbery. It was 20 hours later. And over time, eyewitnesses' memories tend to blur. The"}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 10, "text": "So the photos of the five Black men sentenced to death - he was proud of that, that they were sentenced to death?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Jim Williams, like you said, is a former prosecutor. And when he worked in the district attorney's office in New Orleans in the 1980s, he was known for having a miniature replica of an electric cha"}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 11, "text": "Why did Yutico want him, Williams, to represent him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, apparently, he was."}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 12, "text": "Part of your article is about the cascading effect when you're being tried. If you insist on your innocence, there's things that can keep going wrong that make it harder and harder and harder for you to prove your case. And this is one of the things that happened with Yutico. There was certain evidence he wanted his lawyer, James Williams, to get that was never gotten. So what was that evidence?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yutico had the idea that Williams was a good lawyer to have in Jefferson Parish, which is the parish next to New Orleans. And, you know, sometimes people who are former prosecutors open defense practi"}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 13, "text": "So that's a pretty major thing that went wrong. What about the cellphone?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So the first time that Yutico talked to Mr. Williams, he said, I have an alibi, and my alibi is that I was at a hotel during the time this armed robbery took place. It's called the Evergreen Mot"}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 14, "text": "I'm trying to imagine what it was like for Yutico, knowing that all the evidence that he had in his favor, his alibi, which would have been, like, physical proof of where he was just, like, disappeared.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So the first lawyer, Jim Williams, never filed any kind of subpoena for the cellphone records. After he left the case, because Yutico couldn't keep paying his fees, the public defender tried to "}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 15, "text": "And are plea offers like this coercive in the sense that, had he not been offered a plea - 12 years if you plead guilty, a 60-year sentence if you're found guilty - if it wasn't for the plea, do you think the sentence would have been that high?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I think it was horrible. He was really worried about it, and he was so worried that he was really thinking about pleading guilty on the morning of the trial. He'd been offered a 12-year prison"}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 16, "text": "The DA in New Orleans at the time of Yutico's trial and sentencing was Leon Cannizzaro, and his office prosecuted Briley. What was he known for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, in Louisiana, the law allows prosecutors to do this as long as - or especially if a defendant like Yutico has a prior record. And so that single nonviolent drug "}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 17, "text": "OK, so you have a DA who is known for being, you know, very tough and for long sentences. Who was the judge in the trial, and what was he known for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was known for being really punitive and for using this habitual offender statute, which allows prosecutors to threaten effective life sentences much more often than most other district attorneys, e"}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 18, "text": "Had it not been for you and Lara, your sister, he'd still be in jail facing the remainder of a 60-year sentence.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The judge in the trial was named Franz Zibilich, and he was also known for being tough. He'd been on the bench for several years when Yutico's trial occurred, and he had a reputation for moving cases "}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 19, "text": "There's more I want to talk with you about, but we need to take a short break here, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Emily Bazelon. Her article \"Can You Please Help Me Get Out Of Prison?\" is the cover story of this week's New York Times magazine. We'll talk more after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean, I think one of the lessons of this case that's so important is that undoing a conviction is often far harder than preventing it in the first place. So if you think about a trial, to win "}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Emily Bazelon. She's a journalist who writes about the criminal justice system. Her article \"Can You Please Help Me Get Out of Prison?\" is the cover story of this week's New York Times magazine. It's about an incarcerated man named Yutico Briley serving a 60-year sentence for an armed robbery he insisted he didn't commit. He wrote dozens of people asking for help. None was offered until Emily Bazelon read his letter and started corresponding with him. After becoming convinced that his case illustrates some of the flaws of our criminal justice system, she talked with her sister Lara, a law professor at the University of San Francisco School of Law, where she runs a criminal justice clinic. Lara took on the case, won an appeal and Briley's exoneration. We'll hear from Briley later in the show. So getting back to your 2019 book, \"Charged,\" it was about how prosecutors were gaining so much power in the criminal justice system and using it to put people behind bars, often with really harsh sentences, leading to more and more mass incarceration, and that a lot of it was impacting mostly Black and brown neighborhoods. But there's also now a movement of progressive reform prosecutors who are trying to reform the criminal justice system and find alternatives to mass incarceration. There was an election in 2020 in which some progressives in New Orleans were elected, and that was a turning point for your sister Lara and her attempt to appeal the case. So who was replaced and who was elected that made it such a turning point?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean, I think one of the lessons of this case that's so important is that undoing a conviction is often far harder than preventing it in the first place. So if you think about a trial, to win "}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 21, "text": "So what changed in terms of Yutico Briley's case with the new progressives?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, so there's this campaign going on for district attorney and for a new judge in New Orleans with these two challengers who are running on progressive platforms. So you have Jason Williams, the Ci"}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 22, "text": "What was she able to present on appeal that helped win his exoneration?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Lara asked to talk to Jason Williams about Yutico's case, and I asked to come along as a journalist. And so Lara sat down with Jason Williams, and she laid out the case, and it was just a completel"}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 23, "text": "Why do you think nobody cared? What is it a sign of?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think one piece of evidence that was important to the district attorney's office were tapes of the calls Yutico made from jail when he was first arrested. You can hear him on these calls reall"}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 24, "text": "Your grandfather was a judge who served on the U.S. Court of Appeals in the D.C. Circuit. He served for, like, three decades, and he wrote a couple of majority opinions that were really relevant to Yutico's case. Can you describe one of them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I think that when you're a young Black guy with a gun, people make a lot of assumptions about you. Once you're snatched up into the criminal justice system, you professing your innocence - i"}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 25, "text": "So in terms of the misidentification of suspects, there were other things that were discrepancies in the witness' testimony, in the testimony of the person who was robbed. One had to do with the description of Yutico's hoodie that night. It was a gray hoodie, but there was a question of was it a pullover, or was it a zipper? Can you talk about that a little bit? And, you know, did he have a beard, or did he not have a beard?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, this discovery for me and talking about this with Lara was one of the most special parts of this experience. So my grandfather had a couple of cases in 1969 and 1972 where the police did"}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 26, "text": "I have a couple of gray hoodies. I mean...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. There were some key discrepancies. So the victim of the robbery, when he called 911, said that the robber had a slim build, and he didn't mention any facial hair. Yutico was fairly heavyset at t"}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 27, "text": "...Like, who doesn't? Really, like who doesn't have a gray hoodie?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 28, "text": "Was there any evidence against Yutico except for that the person who was robbed identified him as the robber, even though it was dark, even though many hours had elapsed since the robbery took place, even though there were discrepancies in what the eyewitness said the robber was wearing and what Yutico was actually wearing? Was the eyewitness testimony that it was him the only evidence?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know. I also have one. I hear you."}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 29, "text": "So when Yutico was exonerated, the judge said to him, I just want you to stay strong and stay encouraged and to not allow this to provide you with a bitterness for a system that has, in fact, failed you. What was it like for you to hear the judge say, yeah, the system failed you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, really, pretty much. The only other fact I think is relevant here is that Yutico was caught with a gun that was the same kind of gun the victim said was used in the armed robbery. But it was a"}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 30, "text": "Emily Bazelon, it's great to have you back on the show again, and congratulations on helping to rescue a life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was really relieved to hear her say that, because I think reckoning with the failures of the system is the only way to fix it. And there was an honesty about her recognition that in some ways,"}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 31, "text": "Emily Bazelon writes about criminal justice and is a staff writer at The New York Times Magazine. Her article about Yutico Briley, titled \"Can You Please Help Me Get Out Of Prison?\", is the cover story of this week's magazine. Yutico Briley will join us after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much, Terry. I really appreciate it."}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 32, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. My guest is Yutico Briley, whose case I just discussed with Emily Bazelon, a journalist who covers the criminal justice system. He's the subject of her article titled \"Can You Please Help Me Get Out Of Prison?\", which is the cover story of this week's New York Times Magazine. Briley was sentenced to 60 years in prison for an armed robbery in New Orleans in 2012 that he said he didn't commit. Bazelon was one of dozens of people he wrote to from prison asking for help to prove his innocence. But no one was interested - except Bazelon After corresponding with him, she thought his story was an example of the inequality of mass incarceration. Bazelon described the case to her sister, Lara Bazelon, a lawyer who's a professor at the University of San Francisco School of Law, where she directs a criminal justice clinic. Lara decided to represent Briley and won his appeal and his exoneration. He was released in March. Now, at the age of 28, Briley is starting a new life and facing the difficulties so many people face after being released from prison. He's joining us from his home in New Orleans. Yutico Briley, welcome to FRESH AIR. Congratulations on being on the outside, on getting out. My first question is a question that you could probably talk about for hours or maybe for years. And it's a really big question, and I apologize if it's too big. But what did it feel like when you were in prison serving a 60-year sentence - and you had served seven years of this before Emily Bazelon, you know, reached out to you - after you reached out to her", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Vocalizing)."}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 33, "text": ". So what was it like to know that you didn't do the crime but you were sentenced to 60 years, and you were serving so much time in prison and no one on the outside believed you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Vocalizing)."}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 34, "text": "You wrote to so many people. You wrote to about 60 people asking for help, and they all turned you down except for Emily. And she almost didn't even open the letter that you sent. How did you decide who to write?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". You know, thinking that my freedom was so far away at one time to where, like, I found myself in this terrible position, but, OK, this the worst-case scenario and this the best-case scenario."}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 35, "text": "When the judge exonerated you, she said, I just want you to stay strong and stay encouraged and to not allow this to provide you with a bitterness for a system that has, in fact, failed you. What was your reaction when she said that? She admitted the system had failed you. And she also asked you not to be bitter about the system.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Anybody who I feel like, at that time, who could help me 'cause it was like, I got nothing to lose. So I'm - I'd be reading a newspaper article. And they might be talking about, well, this law clinic "}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 36, "text": "What are you trying to do now to move your life forward?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, because of my experiences with - I'm going to even say before I went to prison. It's like, with my father being in prison, my uncle, I immediately knew what she was talking about. When she told "}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 37, "text": "Why did they become strangers to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had to repair a lot of just relationships that - I'm going to just say, getting my life back on track as a normal person would at my age. So stuff like education, stable, like - well, I got, l"}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 38, "text": "When you were in prison, did you know a lot of people there from the outside, people who were friends or relatives or friends of friends?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, because they kind of wrote me off. Like, in everybody head, Terry, I wasn't getting out. I was never coming home. So that's how they treated me."}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 39, "text": "Were there friendships and rivalries that continued in prison from the outside?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I had a lot of that going on. I had a lot of either relatives, friends or relatives, people that watched me grow up, people that I grew up under. So I had a lot of familiarities in all levels go"}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 40, "text": "I know that you were in gifted and talented classes when you were in high school. What did you do to keep your mind occupied during the years you were in prison?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I'm going to be honest, yes, because just like I got good friends that I done made in prison that I still talk to and I still be with, you can never eliminate your bad relationships or your enemi"}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 41, "text": "My guest is Yutico Briley. The story of his wrongful conviction, imprisonment and his recent exoneration is the cover story of this week's New York Times Magazine. We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's bad because I grew up, like, on they plantation. But, you know, it's just good that I established those relationships with people."}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 42, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Yutico Briley. He was convicted of a 2012 armed robbery in New Orleans. After serving 8 1/2 years of his 60-year sentence, he was exonerated. The story of his wrongful conviction and how he was finally able to appeal is told by journalist Emily Bazelon in an article that's the cover story of this week's New York Times Magazine. So you know a lot of people in New Orleans who you had gotten into trouble with earlier in your life before you went to prison. What are you trying to do to make sure that you don't get back into that life? I know you want to, like, move to Atlanta. What - are there obstacles standing in your way of doing that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's bad because I grew up, like, on they plantation. But, you know, it's just good that I established those relationships with people."}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 43, "text": "How do you think your perspective is different from theirs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I got to get my parole transferred. And it's a 45 to 60-day process. I'm going to just say that, with me going through what I went through, my whole outlook on life is way different than the ave"}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 44, "text": "Is it hard to stay away from them and to stay out of trouble?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first of all, I take life way more seriously. You know, they'll take risks that I'm not going to take. Or they'll feel comfortable doing stuff that I don't feel comfortable doing no more because"}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 45, "text": "So like you've been in prison for - you were in prison for, like, 8 1/2 years. And now, not only are you out, but you are the subject of a cover story in The New York Times Magazine. You hooked up with Emily Bazelon through hearing her on our show. Now you're on our show. So you've gone from being, like, isolated, like people had abandoned you, nobody cared. And now, like, you're becoming a public person. That's a huge transition to make. And I'm just wondering what the response has been to the article. Is that changing your life at all?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is to a certain extent because I know they don't have bad intentions. Some of my friends, you know, they was still, like, taking care of me in jail, sending me money and all this stuff. So it's jus"}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 46, "text": "And you're in The New York Times on the cover of the magazine. A lot of people see that. What kind of response are you getting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 47, "text": "So the way Emily started corresponding with you was that there was a librarian in Oregon who threw a support program for incarcerated people, was corresponding with you regularly. And she told Emily that you had written her and you were trying to get in touch with her. So Emily found your letter and opened it and read it. And that's how your relationship started. And that's what led you to be released from prison. I understand that you're going to be visiting that librarian later this month. What do you expect that visit's going to be like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So that is a huge transition from nobody caring about me to everybody caring about me."}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 48, "text": "Yutico Briley, it's been great to talk with you. I wish you good luck. And I wish you everything that you wish for yourself in your new life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Me and Ms. Karen are really close and I refer to her as, like, my adopted mom. So it's going to be great because we've been waiting to meet each other forever. But we got a real excellent relationship"}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 49, "text": "Yutico Briley spoke to us from his home in New Orleans. He was exonerated in March. He's now the subject of the cover story of this week's New York Times Magazine. The article is by Emily Bazelon, who joined us earlier in the show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "1014175519", "date": "2021-07-08", "guest": "Emily Bazelon", "title": "An Innocent Man Walks Free From A 60-Year Sentence With Help From A Journalist", "question_index": 50, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley, Kayla Lattimore and Joel Wolfram. Our associate producer of digital media is Molly Seavey-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 0, "text": "Mindy Kaling, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Congratulations on your new series. Why did you want to create a series where the main character is a sophomore in high school? Was that a turning point year for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Ron Hansen-Bhattacharyya) Leasing is still a financial commitment, and my monthly payment is quite high."}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 1, "text": "Oh, I see. Because she's a sophomore now, there could be the second semester and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But she liked those sections, and she had seen that I had not dramatized them. And so she wanted to know if I would ever consider that, and she thought it'd be a good fit for Netflix because there h"}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 2, "text": "...Two semesters of being a junior and then senior.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 3, "text": "Right. She could go to college afterwards. Yeah", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, we have 30 years, 30 years at least, to do the show, until she's 45."}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, we have 30 years, 30 years at least, to do the show, until she's 45."}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 5, "text": "So in the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 6, "text": "Right. In the series, her father has a heart attack while attending a concert she's performing in, and he dies. And that's incredibly traumatic, and then your - the main character has this mysterious leg paralysis that lasts for - I don't know - a few weeks or a few months. Where did that storyline come from? I - nothing like that happened to you, did it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Grad school, we see her give - yes, go ahead."}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 7, "text": "So, you know, you mentioned that you and your co-creator both lost parents unexpectedly. Your mother died in around 2012, 2011 of pancreatic cancer. Like, what are some of the ways her death informed how you wrote the series?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it didn't happen to me. It happened to the brother of my co-creator, Lang Fisher. So when we were talking about the series - there's so many teenage series on Netflix and, actually, just out there"}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 8, "text": "So the main character has two best friends. One of them is Chinese American. One of them is African American. The main character is Indian American. And so they're known as the UN. And she assumes that means United Nations, you know? But she is also told it's for a much more negative reason - because they're all un-F-able (ph). So were you called anything like that when you were in high school?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "in a comedy writers' room. And it's not funny at all. But also, like, wow. OK. Well, this might be happening to other people, as well. So those are things that we put in the script as well is dreaming"}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 9, "text": "Were you a serious student like the main character is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I'm sure I was. I never discovered it to my face. I'm absolutely sure there was tons of mean nicknames for me because I would hear mean nicknames about other nerdy girls who were not me. And"}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 10, "text": "Were you belligerent?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But we thought, that would be fun to show, you know? They're not all sad, quiet bookworms, although we were also those things. But we were, like, loud and rambunctious and opinionated."}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 11, "text": "Did you have a temper like your character does?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think at times. I think that when you are interested in comedy at a young age and you don't know how to express it, I think that you - I think that - I'm not sure belligerent is exactly the right wo"}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 12, "text": "Did you have boyfriends in high school? - because your main character literally prays...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And so - but so many of us do, right? So - but that's not the stereotype about us. So I was thrilled to do a show about a lot of short-fused Asian women and to show that side of us."}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 13, "text": "...For a boyfriend", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry..."}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry..."}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 15, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for even posing the question."}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course, the answer is no. It's ridiculous you even asked the question. But that was very polite of you, I'll say."}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 17, "text": "What kind of boyfriend did you dream of?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, of course not, Terry."}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What kind of boyfriend did I dream of? You know, there was so many different kinds. One was a kind of - there's this term we use in our writers' room - I think we started at \"The Office\" - called NBC "}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 19, "text": "Do you think...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...What I was drawn to."}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 20, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Maybe Jewish - you know, like, that kind of thing."}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 21, "text": "So since we've established that you have a temper, has it ever gotten you into serious trouble? Or did you ever do something, like, so out of control that you were really ashamed afterwards?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was like, could handle the spicy Indian food without saying it was too hot or something."}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 22, "text": "You know, in this series, the main character meets a friend who is now at Princeton, which is one of the places that your character would like to end up in after high school. And she tells him if she is at Princeton away from home, she'd become an atheist and eat burgers and have a white boyfriend. But her friend, who actually is at Princeton, says, well, he thought maybe he'd feel that way, too. But he has a Native American roommate, which has made him think a lot more about his own Indian heritage. Did you go through an experience like that yourself?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview from last year with Mindy Kaling. She co-created and is the main writer of the Netflix series \"Never Have I Ever.\" It's about an Indian American "}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 23, "text": "So we were talking about how you didn't have a boyfriend in high school. And your character, so far, is kind of striking out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, almost exactly. My best friend from college - one of my small group of friends - is Native from Montana. And when we got to college, I was not part of, like, the Indian alliance group. It didn't"}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 24, "text": "Did your parents have strict views about dating or sex when you were growing up? And how did their views compare to what you wanted and how you behaved?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 25, "text": "How do you reconcile those two ideas, making you more feminine, as attractive as possible but not wanting you to have intimate relationships with boys?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's so funny you bring that up. I was talking about this the other day because it was a real paradox. There was - we were told, overtly, that no one was allowed to date while they were in high "}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 26, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "relationship with a boy, which, let me underline, would never have happened anyway - but so that everybody would want to be my friend and think I was attractive and pretty, but also had - was just thi"}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 27, "text": "Would you have gone against your parents' wishes about sex had you had the opportunity, which you've made it clear you didn't have?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wasn't the other thing. But, you know, I tried."}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 28, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, in a heartbeat."}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 29, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In a heartbeat. If Adam Brody had - if my picture of Adam Brody from 1994 had wanted me to go - to become his steady girlfriend, oh, I would've died to have had this, like, stealthy, deceit-filled, ro"}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 30, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...While also taking AP classes. I mean, that was my dream..."}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 31, "text": "When I interviewed you in 2012, you mentioned - and I don't remember what the context is - you mentioned that you're interested in the prejudices that minorities have against other minorities, and you thought that that was a really good comedy area. And you work that into your new series in that there's an Indian woman who decided not to get the arranged marriage she was supposed to have. And she married a Muslim man, and then they divorced, and none of the women in this particular Indian community want to talk with her because she had married a Muslim man. Is that an example of what you were talking about in terms of prejudices some minorities have about other minorities? Of course, in India...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross. Let's get back to Terry's interview with Mindy Kaling, recorded last year. Season 2 of her Netflex series, \"Never Have I Ever,\" premieres ne"}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 32, "text": "In India, Hindus are not a minority, but in America they are.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 33, "text": "And what do you find funny about those tensions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, absolutely. I think that is definitely an example of that. I have seen firsthand the racism that Hindus feel towards Muslims because of, you know - it's weird to inherit a prejudice because of s"}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 34, "text": "So for you and Aziz Ansari, it's more of a bond than a difference.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...That's - I find that comical."}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 35, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yeah, we've actually talked about it, too. I think when he started on \"Parks And Rec\" and I'd been on \"The Office,\" we got so many tweets where people said, oh, they should be together. They shou"}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 36, "text": "Yeah. So you ended up going to Dartmouth College. You got your degree in playwriting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I think it's funny when our communities try to find lots of different reasons why we're so, so different when, you know, a majority of probably this country thinks we're identical."}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 37, "text": "And then you went to New York and started doing stand-up. What was the comedy scene like then? What year are we talking?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm-hmm (ph)."}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 38, "text": "It's a frightening time to start a new life on your own in New York.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is - I moved just before 9/11. So this is - the fall of 2001 until 2004 is when I was in New York."}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 39, "text": "So when you started trying out comedy, stand-up comedy in New York, what was your material like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, that experience, being there for that, it really - you know, because we weren't able to use the subway, even. I mean, if that post-9/11 New York was - it was - we didn't have jobs. So "}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 40, "text": "What was your name?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I remember thinking, OK, I do not want to be pegged as, like, an ethnic comedian. I shortened my name because emcees for these comedy shows would have trouble pronouncing it, and then they'd make a jo"}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 41, "text": "So you didn't want to do ethnic material. So what was your material like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I never wanted - my real name is Vera Mindy Chokalingam. And it's a South Indian name, and it's a long name. And as a performer, these comedians would just butcher it and then be like, I don't kno"}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 42, "text": "So last year, you had a movie called \"Late Night\" in which you played an aspiring comic who gets a job - basically, she's the minority hire for a late-night TV show, a \"Tonight Show\" kind of show, that's been hosted for 30 years by a woman played by Emma Thompson. And Emma Thompson's character has become kind of out of touch with what people, especially younger people, find funny. She's very arrogant. But she's told by the executives that unless the show becomes more relevant and the ratings pick up, she's out. So to shake things up a little bit she figures, OK, we'll do a minority hire. She hires you. It's not like she has any faith in you. It's kind of -", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview with Mindy Kaling. She co-created and is the main writer of the Netflix series \"Never Have I Ever.\" She got her start on the NBC series \"The Offi"}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 43, "text": "it's like, you're hired. And then you have to deal with, you know, an all-white-male writers room and a host who is pretty condescending. Were you a diversity hire when you started working on \"The Office\"?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview with Mindy Kaling. She co-created and is the main writer of the Netflix series \"Never Have I Ever.\" She got her start on the NBC series \"The Offi"}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 44, "text": "And do you think, like, that was a successful diversity hire? Like, you were hired to add diversity. Diversity was needed. And you turned out to be exceptionally talented. So it was kind of - I mean, do you see that as a win-win, a win for \"The Office\" and a win for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 45, "text": "\"The Office\" is having this huge resurgence now, this huge renaissance. I think it's on, like, three different channels, including Comedy Central. There's, like, marathons. What impact is that having on you, seeing that series, like, not only be back on TV, but it's pretty popular?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "'cause to promote them, the show would have to take on the cost of the staff. So - and everybody knows that this is the case. So when you go into a show, your biggest sensitivity is that everyone thin"}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 46, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it's incredible. It's funny how many 14, 15-year-old kids will come up to me at the airport because they've binged it on Netflix, and they've seen everything. I mean, I remember about three or fou"}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 47, "text": "Why not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And she wrote a song called - it was called \"My Strange Addiction,\" which is one of her big hits. And the song samples different parts of \"The Office\" because she loves the show so much. In fact, she "}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 48, "text": "And do you think that that's a shame?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he's like, yes, there isn't anything offensive - and it's this big - it's a very, like, iconic Michael Scott joke. But I can't see - you know, I'm creating shows now. I can't see that being OK wit"}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 49, "text": "Yeah. Well, the joke is about how clueless Michael is. It's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do. I'm not offended by very much. But then again, I have also not been marginalized in a lot of ways that people are. So it's tricky. I grew up loving comedy. I give people the benefit of the doubt"}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 50, "text": "It's not an insult against, you know, being Mexican. It's a joke about how Michael never gets it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 51, "text": "Right. Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. But Michael is also the lead of the show..."}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 52, "text": "And has a fear that people will misinterpret a joke or, you know, be, like, very sensitive in a way that you hadn't expected - has that been inhibiting your writing in any way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And the person whose point of view we're often in, the one you hope finds love. And so I think that would maybe be problematic now, whereas if he was a side character that was supposed to be, like,"}
{"id": "1014202294", "date": "2021-07-10", "guest": "Maitreyi Ramakrishnan", "title": "Mindy Kaling Brings A New Nerd To TV, And Finds She 'Was Not Alone' As A Teen", "question_index": 53, "text": "Mindy Kaling, it's just been a pleasure to talk with you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- do you know, like - for something that they did. So I do think there's a lot of fear about that stuff that was not there in 2004, when we started the show."}
{"id": "1017900766", "date": "2021-07-19", "guest": "Akash Kapur", "title": "Memoirist Details Growing Up In A Utopian Community That Wasn't So Ideal", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Utopian communities are of special interest to my guest Akash Kapur because he grew up in one. He's seen the idealism of people trying to remake human society and renounce materialism. He's also seen how idealism and spirituality can turn into zealotry and how individuals can become victims of their own search for perfection. Children, he writes, are often the worst victims of such communities. His parents were pioneers of the utopian community, Auroville, in India. It was founded in 1968 with the goals of encouraging humanity and advancing the spiritual evolution of humanity. The spiritual leader, known as the Mother, believed in a system of yoga that would enable the practitioner to achieve, quote, \"cellular transformation and immortality.\" Kapur left that world when he was 16 to attend the prestigious boarding school Phillips Academy Andover. It was on to Harvard after that. Well, in the U.S., he ran into a woman who also grew up in Auroville and went to college in the U.S. They'd known each other only slightly growing up. They fell in love and married and, for reasons Kapur will explain, moved back to Auroville and have been raising their two children there. Auroville is very different now from the time he was a child. He's written a new book called \"Better To Have Gone: Love, Death, And The Quest For Utopia In Auroville.\" The book is part history, part memoir and part the story of his wife's parents, who both died there under unusual circumstances when she was 14. Kapur is also the author of \"India Becoming: A Portrait Of Life In Modern India.\" And he's the editor of an anthology of writings about Auroville. He's the former \"Letter From India\" columnist for the International New York Times and has also written for The New Yorker. As a result of the pandemic, he and his family have been living in New York since November. Akash Kapur, welcome to FRESH AIR. Before we get to more specifics about Auroville, you've written extensively about utopian communities and the ideals that create them and the things that go wrong once they're created. And why do you continue to be so interested in these experiments of utopian communities?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1017900766", "date": "2021-07-19", "guest": "Akash Kapur", "title": "Memoirist Details Growing Up In A Utopian Community That Wasn't So Ideal", "question_index": 1, "text": "1968, the year Auroville was founded, was the year in which so many people in the U.S. were trying to create utopian communities, hippie communes. Would you describe Auroville when it was founded and what the founding principles were?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think there are many reasons. I mean, for one thing, there's a sort of personal connection, obviously, having grown up in one. But I also just think, you know, there's this - there's a quote b"}
{"id": "1017900766", "date": "2021-07-19", "guest": "Akash Kapur", "title": "Memoirist Details Growing Up In A Utopian Community That Wasn't So Ideal", "question_index": 2, "text": "The person behind the community was known as the Mother. She was the spiritual leader. Who was she? And what did she believe in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It wasn't a coincidence that Auroville was founded in 1968 because it really was part of that kind of efflorescence of intentional communities and communes that came up in the 1960s and in many ways w"}
{"id": "1017900766", "date": "2021-07-19", "guest": "Akash Kapur", "title": "Memoirist Details Growing Up In A Utopian Community That Wasn't So Ideal", "question_index": 3, "text": "So she believed in a form of yoga called integral yoga. And she believed that if you practice this, you could achieve cellular transformation. What does that mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the Mother - you know, her born name or her given name was Mirra Alfassa. She was born in the late 19th century in France to parents of Jewish origin. She was - I guess, you know, she was a mystic."}
{"id": "1017900766", "date": "2021-07-19", "guest": "Akash Kapur", "title": "Memoirist Details Growing Up In A Utopian Community That Wasn't So Ideal", "question_index": 4, "text": "Why did your parents move there? And I should mention that your father, as you write, grew up in a Hindu family who lived in Pakistan but was forced to flee to India during the Partition in 1947. They lost everything in the process. And your mother was from Minnesota, a small farming town there, and an Irish Catholic family. So how did they end up moving to this utopian community, Auroville?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so integral yoga was was sort of Sri Aurobindo's original creation, if you will. And it was based on a couple principles. I mean, for one thing, it was a sort of reworking of ancient Indian thou"}
{"id": "1017900766", "date": "2021-07-19", "guest": "Akash Kapur", "title": "Memoirist Details Growing Up In A Utopian Community That Wasn't So Ideal", "question_index": 5, "text": "What did your grandparents think of your parents moving to - you know, becoming pioneers in this community?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think, you know - so in your earlier questions, you kind of emphasized the sort of spiritual dimensions and the integral yoga. But you have to also realize that there was sort of like secular aspect"}
{"id": "1017900766", "date": "2021-07-19", "guest": "Akash Kapur", "title": "Memoirist Details Growing Up In A Utopian Community That Wasn't So Ideal", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, from my father's side, like, his parents, after having lost everything in partition, they sort of had made their way down to the south of India and were actually living in the ashram, the spirit"}
{"id": "1017900766", "date": "2021-07-19", "guest": "Akash Kapur", "title": "Memoirist Details Growing Up In A Utopian Community That Wasn't So Ideal", "question_index": 7, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Akash Kapur, author of the new book \"Better To Have Gone: Love, Death, And The Quest For Utopia In Auroville.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...One way to put it. But, I think, you know, my dad always said that they were incredibly tolerant and accepting of it. And I don't know. Maybe, again, it was the '60s. People did wild things in thos"}
{"id": "1017900766", "date": "2021-07-19", "guest": "Akash Kapur", "title": "Memoirist Details Growing Up In A Utopian Community That Wasn't So Ideal", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Akash Kapur, author of the new book \"Better to Have Gone: Love, Death, And The Quest For Utopia In Auroville.\" It's about the utopian community in India, Auroville, where he and his wife were raised. They became close in the U.S., where they both went to college. They fell in love, married and eventually returned to Auroville, where they're raising their two children. So your wife grew up in Auroville. Her father was a pioneer there, her mother, too. But her adoptive father's father was from a very prominent, wealthy family in the U.S. Tell us a little bit about him, your wife's grandfather, and what his reaction was when his son moved to Auroville.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...One way to put it. But, I think, you know, my dad always said that they were incredibly tolerant and accepting of it. And I don't know. Maybe, again, it was the '60s. People did wild things in thos"}
{"id": "1017900766", "date": "2021-07-19", "guest": "Akash Kapur", "title": "Memoirist Details Growing Up In A Utopian Community That Wasn't So Ideal", "question_index": 9, "text": "What was your understanding as a child about the community you were living in and why you were living there? Did you understand, like, the idealistic principles? Did your parents talk to you about those principles, about, like, finding - you know, like, creating a new kind of community, perfecting humanity, living in an anti-materialistic world? Did you understand that? Did you hear a lot about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were a very prominent family. His father was, you know, director of the National Art Gallery, one of its founding members, really, in Washington, D.C. He came from a very wealthy family, Pittsbur"}
{"id": "1017900766", "date": "2021-07-19", "guest": "Akash Kapur", "title": "Memoirist Details Growing Up In A Utopian Community That Wasn't So Ideal", "question_index": 10, "text": "But you write that children are often the victims of utopian communities, and that children grow up to be like exiles. Can you expand on that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We heard the broad outline. So like, I didn't know a lot about, you know, integral yoga and things like that. We heard the broad outlines. Partly that was because my parents were less doctrinaire, if "}
{"id": "1017900766", "date": "2021-07-19", "guest": "Akash Kapur", "title": "Memoirist Details Growing Up In A Utopian Community That Wasn't So Ideal", "question_index": 11, "text": "What's your view?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, there are a couple of things. Like, I think that when utopian communities go wrong and head too far in the direction of idealism, children often end up suffering. And this is part of my sort o"}
{"id": "1017900766", "date": "2021-07-19", "guest": "Akash Kapur", "title": "Memoirist Details Growing Up In A Utopian Community That Wasn't So Ideal", "question_index": 12, "text": "Yeah. You compare that period to the Chinese Cultural Revolution. So what else - you mentioned the schools were shut. That was part of this drive to, like, liberate children. So what - why were the schools closed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, I put humanity first. And I think that communities and towns and societies do well when individuals are well-treated and when when humans are well-treated. And I think that, you know, Au"}
{"id": "1017900766", "date": "2021-07-19", "guest": "Akash Kapur", "title": "Memoirist Details Growing Up In A Utopian Community That Wasn't So Ideal", "question_index": 13, "text": "Did that affect your education?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the schools were closed because it was a relatively short period in the community's history following the Mother's death. And, you know, often, these communities do fall apart after the founder "}
{"id": "1017900766", "date": "2021-07-19", "guest": "Akash Kapur", "title": "Memoirist Details Growing Up In A Utopian Community That Wasn't So Ideal", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Akash Kapur, author of the new book \"Better To Have Gone: Love, Death, And The Quest For Utopia In Auroville.\" We'll be back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It affected my education somewhat less than many of my friends because my parents, as I said earlier, were less doctrinaire. And I think they sort of - they saw what was happening. And we actually lef"}
{"id": "1017900766", "date": "2021-07-19", "guest": "Akash Kapur", "title": "Memoirist Details Growing Up In A Utopian Community That Wasn't So Ideal", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Akash Kapur. His new book, \"Better To Have Gone: Love, Death, And The Quest For Utopia In Auroville,\" is about the utopian community in India in which he and his wife were raised. He's seen the idealism of people trying to remake human society and renounce materialism. He's also seen how idealism and spirituality can turn into zealotry and how individuals can become victims of their own search for perfection. But after living in the U.S. in their teens and attending college in the U.S., he and his wife, Auralice, returned to Auroville, where they're raising their two children. Kapur has written for The International New York Times and The New Yorker, and for the past few months, a little more than that, he and his wife and their children have been living in New York because of the pandemic, which is really bad in India.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It affected my education somewhat less than many of my friends because my parents, as I said earlier, were less doctrinaire. And I think they sort of - they saw what was happening. And we actually lef"}
{"id": "1017900766", "date": "2021-07-19", "guest": "Akash Kapur", "title": "Memoirist Details Growing Up In A Utopian Community That Wasn't So Ideal", "question_index": 16, "text": "Have you lost a lot of members of the Auroville community?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. The situation is really bad. I mean, it goes through waves, so it's abating a little bit right now. But, you know, I don't know what the future holds because a very small percentage of the popul"}
{"id": "1017900766", "date": "2021-07-19", "guest": "Akash Kapur", "title": "Memoirist Details Growing Up In A Utopian Community That Wasn't So Ideal", "question_index": 17, "text": "So I want to ask you about your wife's story because, like you, she grew up in Auroville. Her parents both died there when she was 14. Her mother was in a horrible accident when she was climbing up scaffolding, participating in the building of what was to be a kind of centerpiece of the community, a spiritual building basically dedicated to the founding - to the founder of the community, who was known as the mother. She fell off the scaffolding and was terribly injured. She broke her jaw. She broke her back and ended up being paralyzed from the waist down after that. And after that happened - after the accident - she was told by one of the spiritual leaders of the community not to seek medical help, but to just basically seek spiritual help. So how did she handle that advice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Three people died in Auroville. Auroville was relatively less hit than the rest of India because it's quite spread out, and there's a lot of outdoor living. So a lot of people got it. Three people did"}
{"id": "1017900766", "date": "2021-07-19", "guest": "Akash Kapur", "title": "Memoirist Details Growing Up In A Utopian Community That Wasn't So Ideal", "question_index": 18, "text": "So she raised Auralice, who is now your wife, while being, like, incapacitated. And her partner had to carry her even if she was going to the bathroom. It's not like she had a wheelchair or any kind of device to help her. So she was really dependent on him. And then he got really sick, and he eventually just died. And then what happened after that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the short answer is badly. And I don't think it went very well. Because, you know, in some ways, this is sort of, like, the heart of the book because I think that she was a woman who had suffe"}
{"id": "1017900766", "date": "2021-07-19", "guest": "Akash Kapur", "title": "Memoirist Details Growing Up In A Utopian Community That Wasn't So Ideal", "question_index": 19, "text": "If you don't mind my asking, how does your wife feel knowing that her mother died by suicide, knowingly leaving behind a 14-year-old daughter with no family in India?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What happened after that is that Auralice's mother, Diane, was left on her own. And she had been utterly dependent, as you said, on John. And in addition to being utterly dependent, I think they felt "}
{"id": "1017900766", "date": "2021-07-19", "guest": "Akash Kapur", "title": "Memoirist Details Growing Up In A Utopian Community That Wasn't So Ideal", "question_index": 20, "text": "So what made you both decide that you were going to move back to Auroville, considering how traumatic some of her memories are from there and the mixed feelings that you had about Auroville?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's - you know, it's what you would expect. It's very difficult. Of course it's a form of abandonment, and, of course, it feels like a form of abandonment. At the same time, I think that my wife unde"}
{"id": "1017900766", "date": "2021-07-19", "guest": "Akash Kapur", "title": "Memoirist Details Growing Up In A Utopian Community That Wasn't So Ideal", "question_index": 21, "text": "Auroville is now over 50 years old, which is a long time for a utopian community. How does Auroville of today compare to your memories of childhood?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, people often ask us that. I mean, I say somewhere in the book that children of utopian communities are often, like, exiles. And I think what I mean by that is that you grow up with this sort o"}
{"id": "1017900766", "date": "2021-07-19", "guest": "Akash Kapur", "title": "Memoirist Details Growing Up In A Utopian Community That Wasn't So Ideal", "question_index": 22, "text": "How are you raising your children in Auroville compared to how you were raised there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. People - life has gotten easier. It's less - the, you know - one of the great changes and the most sort of positive changes in Auroville is that this barren desert plateau has been turned into an "}
{"id": "1017900766", "date": "2021-07-19", "guest": "Akash Kapur", "title": "Memoirist Details Growing Up In A Utopian Community That Wasn't So Ideal", "question_index": 23, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Akash Kapur, author of the new book \"Better To Have Gone: Love, Death, And The Quest For Utopia In Auroville.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think we're much more conventional. I think the community is much more conventional, for better and for worse. The schools are much more solid. They're - you know, they're great in many ways. "}
{"id": "1017900766", "date": "2021-07-19", "guest": "Akash Kapur", "title": "Memoirist Details Growing Up In A Utopian Community That Wasn't So Ideal", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Akash Kapur, author of the new book \"Better To Have Gone: Love, Death, And The Quest For Utopia In Auroville.\" It's about the utopian community in India, Auroville, where he and his wife were raised. You write that you've always mistrusted faith a little and that maybe it's because you've grown up around too much of it, and you've seen what faith can do. Do you practice any faith now? Or do you practice yoga? Or do you meditate?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think we're much more conventional. I think the community is much more conventional, for better and for worse. The schools are much more solid. They're - you know, they're great in many ways. "}
{"id": "1017900766", "date": "2021-07-19", "guest": "Akash Kapur", "title": "Memoirist Details Growing Up In A Utopian Community That Wasn't So Ideal", "question_index": 25, "text": "You write that growing up in, quote, \"utopia\" is a good way to make you an incrementalist. Can you expand on that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I do. I do practice yoga. And I do meditate every day. I don't necessarily see those, as, you know, religious or spiritual practices, per se. I say in the book somewhere that yoga in the Aurovill"}
{"id": "1017900766", "date": "2021-07-19", "guest": "Akash Kapur", "title": "Memoirist Details Growing Up In A Utopian Community That Wasn't So Ideal", "question_index": 26, "text": "Where do your parents live now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I've written about this elsewhere and in the context of sort of contemporary situation in the world. Because I think that we're in a moment now - let's put it this way. Historically, utopias"}
{"id": "1017900766", "date": "2021-07-19", "guest": "Akash Kapur", "title": "Memoirist Details Growing Up In A Utopian Community That Wasn't So Ideal", "question_index": 27, "text": "Oh, so they're both in the community?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My parents are both in Auroville."}
{"id": "1017900766", "date": "2021-07-19", "guest": "Akash Kapur", "title": "Memoirist Details Growing Up In A Utopian Community That Wasn't So Ideal", "question_index": 28, "text": "How well did your parents know your wife's parents?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, they both are."}
{"id": "1017900766", "date": "2021-07-19", "guest": "Akash Kapur", "title": "Memoirist Details Growing Up In A Utopian Community That Wasn't So Ideal", "question_index": 29, "text": "A lot of your book is about your wife's parents and - who were true believers, in a lot of ways, and suffered the consequences of that. And then - and your wife suffered the consequences because she was orphaned at the age of 14. She didn't know a lot about her parents' deaths until you found her father's letters and papers. And you moved back and started doing all this research. You write that she was a partner with you the whole step of the way in terms of writing this book and researching it. How has it changed her outlook on her parents and on her own life? - because for so many years, you really didn't understand what had happened. All she knew was, like, you know, her mother took her life when - or at least your wife was, like, 14 and left her parentless.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, you know, we have no memory of that moment. But as I say, it was sort of like the inception of a friendship that we wouldn't remember, but that would last a lifetime."}
{"id": "1017900766", "date": "2021-07-19", "guest": "Akash Kapur", "title": "Memoirist Details Growing Up In A Utopian Community That Wasn't So Ideal", "question_index": 30, "text": "Yeah. It's basically like saying, like, your mother was angry at the person who was saying you're leaving your daughter as an orphan. How can you do that to her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was complicated. I mean, there were certainly times when it was pretty painful. And we were kind of - you know, we were casting a light on dark places, places that she had sort of never dared to ap"}
{"id": "1017900766", "date": "2021-07-19", "guest": "Akash Kapur", "title": "Memoirist Details Growing Up In A Utopian Community That Wasn't So Ideal", "question_index": 31, "text": "Well, Akash Kapur, I want to thank you so much for talking with us, and I wish you and your family well.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, like, you know, we worked through this. We had many, many conversations and many discussions along the way. Somebody told me as I was writing this book - very sort of wise person. He said, you kn"}
{"id": "1017900766", "date": "2021-07-19", "guest": "Akash Kapur", "title": "Memoirist Details Growing Up In A Utopian Community That Wasn't So Ideal", "question_index": 32, "text": "Akash Kapur is the author of the new book \"Better To Have Gone: Love, Death And The Quest For Utopia In Auroville.\" After we take a short break, jazz critic Kevin Whitehead will review a new Bill Evans anthology. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. That was fun."}
{"id": "1019289255", "date": "2021-07-22", "guest": "Ronald Brownstein", "title": "GOP-Controlled State Legislatures Are Taking A Sharp Right Turn, Journalist Says", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Though this year's proliferation of bills restricting ballot access in red states has commanded national attention, it represents just one stream in a torrent of conservative legislation posed to remake the country. GOP controlled states have advanced their most conservative agenda in years, and one that reflects Donald Trump's present stamp on the party. That's what my guest, Ronald Brownstein, wrote in a recent column in The Atlantic, where he's a senior editor. He's also a senior political analyst at CNN. Earlier this year, he wrote a column in The Atlantic titled \"How The GOP Surrendered To Extremism.\" One of his books - unrelated topic - is titled \"The Second Civil War: How Extreme Partisanship Has Paralyzed Washington And Polarized America.\" Brownstein is a former national political correspondent and national affairs columnist for the LA Times and covered the White House and national politics for the National Journal. His latest book, which was published in the spring, is titled \"Rock Me On The Water: 1974 - The Year Los Angeles Transformed Movies, Music, Television, And Politics.\" It's about the period when pop culture started reflecting the vanguard of culture and politics, taking a more watered-down version to the mainstream. Our interview was recorded yesterday morning. Ron Brownstein, welcome back to FRESH AIR. It's been a long time, glad to have you back again.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1019289255", "date": "2021-07-22", "guest": "Ronald Brownstein", "title": "GOP-Controlled State Legislatures Are Taking A Sharp Right Turn, Journalist Says", "question_index": 1, "text": "So what are some of the conservative bills passed by Republican state legislatures?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it's good to be back with you, so nice."}
{"id": "1019289255", "date": "2021-07-22", "guest": "Ronald Brownstein", "title": "GOP-Controlled State Legislatures Are Taking A Sharp Right Turn, Journalist Says", "question_index": 2, "text": "And that's because those are likely to be Democratic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, we are seeing, as I wrote, just a torrent of bills. I mean, let's start with guns. Half a dozen states, at the point that I had written, had passed legislation allowing gun owners to carry the"}
{"id": "1019289255", "date": "2021-07-22", "guest": "Ronald Brownstein", "title": "GOP-Controlled State Legislatures Are Taking A Sharp Right Turn, Journalist Says", "question_index": 3, "text": "Well, you describe this pattern of red state, very conservative legislation as remaking the country? So can you expand on that? How do you think it's remaking the country or trying to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Those are Democratic counties. And if you look at it all in totality, it is just a remarkable statement of defiance and rejection not only of the direction that Biden is setting at the national level,"}
{"id": "1019289255", "date": "2021-07-22", "guest": "Ronald Brownstein", "title": "GOP-Controlled State Legislatures Are Taking A Sharp Right Turn, Journalist Says", "question_index": 4, "text": "Well, I think Philadelphia is, in a way, an example of what you're talking about...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it is essentially - I mean, you know, I look at it almost as a form of intellectual or policy secession. You know, essentially, you have roughly half the country saying that we are going"}
{"id": "1019289255", "date": "2021-07-22", "guest": "Ronald Brownstein", "title": "GOP-Controlled State Legislatures Are Taking A Sharp Right Turn, Journalist Says", "question_index": 5, "text": "...Because, like, Philadelphia is a very Democratic city. But the Pennsylvania state legislature is very conservative.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1019289255", "date": "2021-07-22", "guest": "Ronald Brownstein", "title": "GOP-Controlled State Legislatures Are Taking A Sharp Right Turn, Journalist Says", "question_index": 6, "text": "You know, something we neglected to mention, I think, in the conservative legislation being passed at the state level is legislation related to COVID and masks.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Right. And, you know, Pennsylvania is an excellent example of what we're describing because, you know, when you - you know, 50 years ago, you know, the suburbs of Philadelphia were not a Democrat"}
{"id": "1019289255", "date": "2021-07-22", "guest": "Ronald Brownstein", "title": "GOP-Controlled State Legislatures Are Taking A Sharp Right Turn, Journalist Says", "question_index": 7, "text": "You write that the Republican agenda is being driven by a combination of confidence and fear. Where is the confidence coming from?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Really, COVID crystallized the conflicts between red states and blue cities in state after state - whether it was Georgia, Texas, Florida, Arizona - Republican governors and legislatures, respons"}
{"id": "1019289255", "date": "2021-07-22", "guest": "Ronald Brownstein", "title": "GOP-Controlled State Legislatures Are Taking A Sharp Right Turn, Journalist Says", "question_index": 8, "text": "Redistricting will be happening soon based on the recent census. So what is that looking like about - like, which direction do you think it will change politics in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think the confidence is that Democrats devoted an enormous amount of money to dislodging these Republican majorities in the state legislatures in 2020 and failed. In 2020, Democrats spent a ve"}
{"id": "1019289255", "date": "2021-07-22", "guest": "Ronald Brownstein", "title": "GOP-Controlled State Legislatures Are Taking A Sharp Right Turn, Journalist Says", "question_index": 9, "text": "That is a really close deadline.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this is where the Democratic failure in 2020 to make bigger inroads is so consequential because you have the ability for these Republican legislators to gerrymander - draw districts in a way tha"}
{"id": "1019289255", "date": "2021-07-22", "guest": "Ronald Brownstein", "title": "GOP-Controlled State Legislatures Are Taking A Sharp Right Turn, Journalist Says", "question_index": 10, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Ronald Brownstein. He's a senior editor at The Atlantic and a senior political analyst for CNN. We'll talk more after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a really close deadline. I mean, it's - you know, it's hard to imagine they're going to be able to pull this together in the next few weeks. It's not clear they're going to be able to pull this t"}
{"id": "1019289255", "date": "2021-07-22", "guest": "Ronald Brownstein", "title": "GOP-Controlled State Legislatures Are Taking A Sharp Right Turn, Journalist Says", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Ronald Brownstein, a senior editor at The Atlantic, where he's been writing about how the Republican Party has become more extreme, as reflected in the conservative bills being passed at the state level. You write that the conservative bills being passed at the state level reflect the stamp of Donald Trump. In what way, both in terms of the policies and the political approach, do they reflect Trump's stamp?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a really close deadline. I mean, it's - you know, it's hard to imagine they're going to be able to pull this together in the next few weeks. It's not clear they're going to be able to pull this t"}
{"id": "1019289255", "date": "2021-07-22", "guest": "Ronald Brownstein", "title": "GOP-Controlled State Legislatures Are Taking A Sharp Right Turn, Journalist Says", "question_index": 12, "text": "Do you think a lot of Republicans have taken on the tone of Trump's politics - the anger, the hostility, the mocking?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What you're really seeing at the state level is a manifestation of what Trump made very clear at the national level - that the driving engine of the modern Republican coalition - I think the glue of t"}
{"id": "1019289255", "date": "2021-07-22", "guest": "Ronald Brownstein", "title": "GOP-Controlled State Legislatures Are Taking A Sharp Right Turn, Journalist Says", "question_index": 13, "text": "How much power is Trump perceived as still having in the Republican Party? 'Cause, you know, he's been having his rallies, but he's not on social media the way he used to be. We don't see him and hear him every day the way we used to. And I'm wondering if you think Republicans feel they need Trump anymore or whether they've adapted enough of his style that they can carry it on without him and still get the support of his base?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, absolutely. Look; I mean, it all goes together. I mean, I think - look; I think the core Trump message is that Democrats are a fundamentally alien force that is trying to steal your America and "}
{"id": "1019289255", "date": "2021-07-22", "guest": "Ronald Brownstein", "title": "GOP-Controlled State Legislatures Are Taking A Sharp Right Turn, Journalist Says", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Ronald Brownstein, a senior editor at The Atlantic and senior political analyst for CNN. We'll talk more after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a great question. Look; I think Trump's personal power is still substantial. The larger power is it this - what we call the Trump base - is the Republican coalition at this point. And that's wh"}
{"id": "1019289255", "date": "2021-07-22", "guest": "Ronald Brownstein", "title": "GOP-Controlled State Legislatures Are Taking A Sharp Right Turn, Journalist Says", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Ronald Brownstein, a senior editor at The Atlantic and a political analyst at CNN. He's been writing about how Republicans are limiting access to the ballot and how red states have been advancing their most conservative agenda in years, reflecting Donald Trump's stamp on the party. He's also been writing about how Republicans have been blocking Democrats in Congress and the ongoing debate over whether Democrats should end the filibuster. His new book gave him the chance to depart from today's politics. It's called \"Rock Me On The Water: 1974 - The Year Los Angeles Transformed Movies, Music, Television, And Politics.\" There's a big debate now within the Democratic Party about whether to end the filibuster or to end the filibuster on a limited basis, for instance, just for voting rights issues. And what would you say is the state of that debate right now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a great question. Look; I think Trump's personal power is still substantial. The larger power is it this - what we call the Trump base - is the Republican coalition at this point. And that's wh"}
{"id": "1019289255", "date": "2021-07-22", "guest": "Ronald Brownstein", "title": "GOP-Controlled State Legislatures Are Taking A Sharp Right Turn, Journalist Says", "question_index": 16, "text": "You're talking about the infrastructure bill there. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'd start by saying it is - I wrote in January and still believe it is the biggest single choice Democrats face in this Congress, whether to end the filibuster to pass a national floor of voting"}
{"id": "1019289255", "date": "2021-07-22", "guest": "Ronald Brownstein", "title": "GOP-Controlled State Legislatures Are Taking A Sharp Right Turn, Journalist Says", "question_index": 17, "text": "So Senators Sinema and Manchin are asking for bipartisanship in an era when that is most improbable. So say President Biden decided, yeah, we're going to go for ending the filibuster for voting rights, just for voting rights issues. What are the odds, do you think, that Sinema and Manchin would actually agree to that? 'Cause he needs their votes. I mean, would it even be possible to end the filibuster if he - if Biden decided he wanted to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes, I am, yeah. So it is an enormously consequential decision because - you know, I was talking to an historian for another story I was writing. And if you think about the 1960s and the civil ri"}
{"id": "1019289255", "date": "2021-07-22", "guest": "Ronald Brownstein", "title": "GOP-Controlled State Legislatures Are Taking A Sharp Right Turn, Journalist Says", "question_index": 18, "text": "So how many years have you been writing about politics, Washington politics?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The short answer is no one knows, Terry. So let's kind of recap the state of play. The House passed a very expansive bill called H.R. 1, which establishes a nationwide floor of voting rights, allows -"}
{"id": "1019289255", "date": "2021-07-22", "guest": "Ronald Brownstein", "title": "GOP-Controlled State Legislatures Are Taking A Sharp Right Turn, Journalist Says", "question_index": 19, "text": "Do you think that your way of writing about politics has changed to reflect the time that we're living in now, when, you know, so many people in the Republican Party and our former president, Donald Trump, have put out so many statements that are just factually wrong and are presenting them as the truth?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I came to Washington, if you can believe it, in 1979. And I have been covering national political campaigns in the White House since 1984."}
{"id": "1019289255", "date": "2021-07-22", "guest": "Ronald Brownstein", "title": "GOP-Controlled State Legislatures Are Taking A Sharp Right Turn, Journalist Says", "question_index": 20, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Ronald Brownstein, a senior editor at The Atlantic and senior political analyst for CNN. We'll talk more after a break. And when we do come back, we're going to talk about his new book, which is called \"Rock Me On The Water: 1974 - The Year Los Angeles Transformed Movies, Music, Television And Politics.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think unequivocally. Unequivocally. Look; your job as a journalist is to tell your readers what's happening as best you can and as best you can understand it. And, you know, many of the things I've "}
{"id": "1019289255", "date": "2021-07-22", "guest": "Ronald Brownstein", "title": "GOP-Controlled State Legislatures Are Taking A Sharp Right Turn, Journalist Says", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Ronald Brownstein, a senior editor at The Atlantic, where he's been writing about how the Republican Party has become more extreme. He is also a senior analyst at CNN. You have a new book, which must have been a refreshing departure...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think unequivocally. Unequivocally. Look; your job as a journalist is to tell your readers what's happening as best you can and as best you can understand it. And, you know, many of the things I've "}
{"id": "1019289255", "date": "2021-07-22", "guest": "Ronald Brownstein", "title": "GOP-Controlled State Legislatures Are Taking A Sharp Right Turn, Journalist Says", "question_index": 22, "text": "...From writing about today's politics. It's called \"1974 - The Year Los Angeles Transformed Movies, Music, Television And Politics.\" And there's kind of, like, an overarching, like, thesis in the book, which is that real culture is always ahead of pop culture and pop culture is usually ahead of politics, and that the '70s was this turning point in the relationship between those three. So talk about how you see '74 as a turning point.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1019289255", "date": "2021-07-22", "guest": "Ronald Brownstein", "title": "GOP-Controlled State Legislatures Are Taking A Sharp Right Turn, Journalist Says", "question_index": 23, "text": "You know, in the period you're talking about, you also have different levels of popular culture. You have, like, mainstream pop culture, and I put \"All In The Family\" in that category. But you also have, like, alternative newspapers and magazines. You have the beginning of independent film, experimental movies. One hand you have The Eagles. On the other hand, you have Lou Reed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So writing \"Rock Me On The Water\" was, in one sense - you know, felt like a vacation from all the turmoil of our modern political life the last few years because its focus is on the simultaneous renai"}
{"id": "1019289255", "date": "2021-07-22", "guest": "Ronald Brownstein", "title": "GOP-Controlled State Legislatures Are Taking A Sharp Right Turn, Journalist Says", "question_index": 24, "text": "Yeah, exactly. You have punk rock.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, you do. Right - the New York story."}
{"id": "1019289255", "date": "2021-07-22", "guest": "Ronald Brownstein", "title": "GOP-Controlled State Legislatures Are Taking A Sharp Right Turn, Journalist Says", "question_index": 25, "text": "A little bit later. Yeah. So you have all these conflicts within pop culture, too. Tell us about one of the movies that you think really shows how Hollywood is changing to - you know, in reaction to what's actually happening in youth culture at the time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A little later. Yeah."}
{"id": "1019289255", "date": "2021-07-22", "guest": "Ronald Brownstein", "title": "GOP-Controlled State Legislatures Are Taking A Sharp Right Turn, Journalist Says", "question_index": 26, "text": "It's such a great movie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the key point about this period is not that the avant-garde was adapting kind of ideas that were considered insurrectionary in the mainstream because, as I think you're noting, that's always tru"}
{"id": "1019289255", "date": "2021-07-22", "guest": "Ronald Brownstein", "title": "GOP-Controlled State Legislatures Are Taking A Sharp Right Turn, Journalist Says", "question_index": 27, "text": "Well, Ron Brownstein, I want to thank you so much for being on our show. Thank you for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's such a great movie, right? I mean, and I talked to Robert Towne, who wrote the movie, and others who were involved in it. I had a great time. I found the photographer who took the on-set photos -"}
{"id": "1019289255", "date": "2021-07-22", "guest": "Ronald Brownstein", "title": "GOP-Controlled State Legislatures Are Taking A Sharp Right Turn, Journalist Says", "question_index": 28, "text": "Ronald Brownstein is a senior editor at The Atlantic and a senior political analyst at CNN. His latest book is called \"Rock Me On The Water: 1974 - The Year Los Angeles Transformed Movies, Music, Television, And Politics.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thanks for having me - always a great time."}
{"id": "1019289255", "date": "2021-07-22", "guest": "Ronald Brownstein", "title": "GOP-Controlled State Legislatures Are Taking A Sharp Right Turn, Journalist Says", "question_index": 29, "text": "After we take a short break, our film critic Justin Chang will review a film he recommends that won a directing prize at the 2020 Berlin International Film Festival. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thanks for having me - always a great time."}
{"id": "1019294251", "date": "2021-07-23", "guest": "Hugh Grant", "title": "No More Mr. Nice Guy: Hugh Grant Embraces The 'Blessed Relief' Of Darker Roles", "question_index": 0, "text": "Hugh Grant, welcome to FRESH AIR. Thank you so much for coming.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Jonathan, crying) That in all of this, I lost someone I love."}
{"id": "1019294251", "date": "2021-07-23", "guest": "Hugh Grant", "title": "No More Mr. Nice Guy: Hugh Grant Embraces The 'Blessed Relief' Of Darker Roles", "question_index": 1, "text": "So you're so charming in the beginning of this series. Even when you're being condescending, like, you're charming. And you're an oncologist who saves children's lives. We have no reason to distrust you until you become the prime suspect in this murder. We're so used to you as an actor channeling, like, your charming side. You've been playing darker roles lately, including this one. Do you feel it's bringing out something different in you as an actor and that you have to draw on something different as an actor?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, well, thanks for having me."}
{"id": "1019294251", "date": "2021-07-23", "guest": "Hugh Grant", "title": "No More Mr. Nice Guy: Hugh Grant Embraces The 'Blessed Relief' Of Darker Roles", "question_index": 2, "text": "You know, we don't know until the final episode whether your character is really a sociopathic killer or not. And with each episode, you start to doubt him more. You start doubting his version of the truth more, but you don't really know. And, I mean, the truth is, usually, in stories like this, the person who you think is guilty isn't. And then there's a surprise. Somebody else did it, somebody you didn't suspect", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "or been offered in the last six or seven years. I'm not sure what that says about me. But it's certainly been a blessed relief after having to be Mr. Nice Guy for so many years, which is a thankless t"}
{"id": "1019294251", "date": "2021-07-23", "guest": "Hugh Grant", "title": "No More Mr. Nice Guy: Hugh Grant Embraces The 'Blessed Relief' Of Darker Roles", "question_index": 3, "text": ". And there's a couple of opportunities where you think, oh, that's going to be the case. It's going to be this person who I didn't suspect. So actors often like to do research. It's not like you were going to hang around with sociopathic murderers to see, what's it like to be one?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "or been offered in the last six or seven years. I'm not sure what that says about me. But it's certainly been a blessed relief after having to be Mr. Nice Guy for so many years, which is a thankless t"}
{"id": "1019294251", "date": "2021-07-23", "guest": "Hugh Grant", "title": "No More Mr. Nice Guy: Hugh Grant Embraces The 'Blessed Relief' Of Darker Roles", "question_index": 4, "text": "So what were you able to draw on to figure out the psychology of the character and the behavior?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "or been offered in the last six or seven years. I'm not sure what that says about me. But it's certainly been a blessed relief after having to be Mr. Nice Guy for so many years, which is a thankless t"}
{"id": "1019294251", "date": "2021-07-23", "guest": "Hugh Grant", "title": "No More Mr. Nice Guy: Hugh Grant Embraces The 'Blessed Relief' Of Darker Roles", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I've - I'm pretty good on narcissists because there's plenty in my business."}
{"id": "1019294251", "date": "2021-07-23", "guest": "Hugh Grant", "title": "No More Mr. Nice Guy: Hugh Grant Embraces The 'Blessed Relief' Of Darker Roles", "question_index": 6, "text": "So you had to convince yourself that a doctor who is a pediatrician and cares for children with cancer - he's an oncologist - and seems to be very good at what he does - you had to convince yourself that such a doctor could also be that dark and be capable of killing somebody.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". They are lovely people who I keep in touch with to this day. And then, finally, I found one who wasn't an oncologist at all. My brother, who lives in Manhattan, and his wife had said, you need to me"}
{"id": "1019294251", "date": "2021-07-23", "guest": "Hugh Grant", "title": "No More Mr. Nice Guy: Hugh Grant Embraces The 'Blessed Relief' Of Darker Roles", "question_index": 7, "text": "Is there anything you had to unlearn from your rom-com roles as you started doing darker roles? Or, on the other hand, it seems to me you were able to use some of your rom-com in \"The Undoing,\" which is a very dark role, because you could use some of that to cover up, you know, to have a kind of agreeable surface - charming surface while other things were going on beneath the surface.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes. Exactly. Well, I had to convince myself that - there are cases of doctors where it's not about the patient, it's about them. And with - in the case of Jonathan, I think that everything, ever"}
{"id": "1019294251", "date": "2021-07-23", "guest": "Hugh Grant", "title": "No More Mr. Nice Guy: Hugh Grant Embraces The 'Blessed Relief' Of Darker Roles", "question_index": 8, "text": "One of my favorite rom-coms of the recent past is \"Music And Lyrics,\" in which you play a washed-up lead singer and songwriter from an '80s hair band. And you're kind of reduced to just playing your old songs and playing at fairs. You're not really a star anymore. And I just thought it captured - it's just a really fun film. And the music in it was so great and so funny because it was kind of, like, parodies of '80s songs, but they could have been real songs 'cause they were actually pretty catchy. So you had to sing for it. Had you sung in public before?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2020 interview with Hugh Grant. He's been nominated for an Emmy for his role in the HBO miniseries \"The Undoing.\" He became a movie star playing in rom-com"}
{"id": "1019294251", "date": "2021-07-23", "guest": "Hugh Grant", "title": "No More Mr. Nice Guy: Hugh Grant Embraces The 'Blessed Relief' Of Darker Roles", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no. And it's cheating. You know, I had no idea how cheated music is these days. I'm OK. I'm not good. I sound a bit like Julie Andrews, which is not great for rock or pop."}
{"id": "1019294251", "date": "2021-07-23", "guest": "Hugh Grant", "title": "No More Mr. Nice Guy: Hugh Grant Embraces The 'Blessed Relief' Of Darker Roles", "question_index": 10, "text": "In addition to having, like, an auto-tuning kind of thing, did you take voice lessons? Did you have a voice coach?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But - much too enunciated. But Drew, who has to sing in the film as well - I don't think she'd mind me telling you - is a - she's a horrendous singer. But what they do with computers now is so brillia"}
{"id": "1019294251", "date": "2021-07-23", "guest": "Hugh Grant", "title": "No More Mr. Nice Guy: Hugh Grant Embraces The 'Blessed Relief' Of Darker Roles", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He put on some music and, you know, I just stood still for 20 minutes. He wasn't getting that..."}
{"id": "1019294251", "date": "2021-07-23", "guest": "Hugh Grant", "title": "No More Mr. Nice Guy: Hugh Grant Embraces The 'Blessed Relief' Of Darker Roles", "question_index": 12, "text": "Did you self-medicate for \"Love Actually,\" where you do a whole dance sequence solo?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was not getting that out of a 40-year-old Englishman at 11:00 in the morning. So it was very difficult. In the end, I did those scenes on a sneaky combination of whiskey and lorazepam tranquilizers"}
{"id": "1019294251", "date": "2021-07-23", "guest": "Hugh Grant", "title": "No More Mr. Nice Guy: Hugh Grant Embraces The 'Blessed Relief' Of Darker Roles", "question_index": 13, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I did - I did that completely sober. I don't know how the hell that happened. But these are terrible things to have to do if you're an uptight Englishman."}
{"id": "1019294251", "date": "2021-07-23", "guest": "Hugh Grant", "title": "No More Mr. Nice Guy: Hugh Grant Embraces The 'Blessed Relief' Of Darker Roles", "question_index": 14, "text": "You also said you've hung out with a lot of politicians and that's how you know a lot of them are narcissists. How did you get to hang out with a lot of politicians? I mean, you've played Jeremy Thorpe, the former leader of the Liberal Party. You've campaigned against Brexit. Are those ways that you've gotten to know politicians?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I did - I did that completely sober. I don't know how the hell that happened. But these are terrible things to have to do if you're an uptight Englishman."}
{"id": "1019294251", "date": "2021-07-23", "guest": "Hugh Grant", "title": "No More Mr. Nice Guy: Hugh Grant Embraces The 'Blessed Relief' Of Darker Roles", "question_index": 15, "text": "And you were active in that because you were hacked. Your phone was hacked. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, although both of those are more recent. But way back - I think it was 2011 - I don't know if you were aware of or watched any of the sort of phone hacking scandal blowing up in Britain. There we"}
{"id": "1019294251", "date": "2021-07-23", "guest": "Hugh Grant", "title": "No More Mr. Nice Guy: Hugh Grant Embraces The 'Blessed Relief' Of Darker Roles", "question_index": 16, "text": "And you did. I mean, you actually - you went to his pub. You brought a tape recorder, and you secretly recorded him. Is that legal?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So I was active because I'd always been furious about this abuse of power and personally because, yes, I had my phone hacked. I had my apartment burgled by these newspapers. I mean, they really "}
{"id": "1019294251", "date": "2021-07-23", "guest": "Hugh Grant", "title": "No More Mr. Nice Guy: Hugh Grant Embraces The 'Blessed Relief' Of Darker Roles", "question_index": 17, "text": "What are some of the things you learned about how the tabloids invaded your privacy and the techniques that they used?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Probably not. But anyway, I did it. And I published the transcript in a British magazine, and it created quite a stir. No one seemed to sue me for it, so I guess it was considered in the public intere"}
{"id": "1019294251", "date": "2021-07-23", "guest": "Hugh Grant", "title": "No More Mr. Nice Guy: Hugh Grant Embraces The 'Blessed Relief' Of Darker Roles", "question_index": 18, "text": "I didn't know you'd voiced commercials. And probably, they're commercials we didn't see in the U.S. So what kind of commercials were they? And what kind of voices did you have to do?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, sitting in for Terry Gross. Let's return to Terry's interview with Hugh Grant, recorded last December. He's been nominated for an Emmy for his role in the HBO m"}
{"id": "1019294251", "date": "2021-07-23", "guest": "Hugh Grant", "title": "No More Mr. Nice Guy: Hugh Grant Embraces The 'Blessed Relief' Of Darker Roles", "question_index": 19, "text": "Did that become your early resume, portfolio?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were radio commercials. And they were written by me and my two friends. And they were produced by us and very often acted by us. And there all sorts of silly things. I don't know. (Imitating clip"}
{"id": "1019294251", "date": "2021-07-23", "guest": "Hugh Grant", "title": "No More Mr. Nice Guy: Hugh Grant Embraces The 'Blessed Relief' Of Darker Roles", "question_index": 20, "text": "It was a Merchant Ivory film, wasn't it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I didn't have a portfolio. We were just - I mean, we're just messing around, really. And they went on to do more of that. And then one day, I had an agent, but I was not particularly interested "}
{"id": "1019294251", "date": "2021-07-23", "guest": "Hugh Grant", "title": "No More Mr. Nice Guy: Hugh Grant Embraces The 'Blessed Relief' Of Darker Roles", "question_index": 21, "text": "Were you surprised to have a film career?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it was that film they did after \"Room With A View,\" and it was based on another E.M. Forster novel. It was the one between \"Room With A View\" and \"Howards End.\" It was about E.M. Forster's secre"}
{"id": "1019294251", "date": "2021-07-23", "guest": "Hugh Grant", "title": "No More Mr. Nice Guy: Hugh Grant Embraces The 'Blessed Relief' Of Darker Roles", "question_index": 22, "text": "Well, how'd you get the role?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "and very odd European - what I called Europuddings, where they'd be written by a Spaniard, directed by a German, English actors. They were awful. And they never got really released properly. But, you "}
{"id": "1019294251", "date": "2021-07-23", "guest": "Hugh Grant", "title": "No More Mr. Nice Guy: Hugh Grant Embraces The 'Blessed Relief' Of Darker Roles", "question_index": 23, "text": "Oh, literally, that happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, \"Four Weddings\" was odd because things were in pretty bad state in terms of proper acting for me. And then the script came through. And I remember calling my agent and saying, I think there's be"}
{"id": "1019294251", "date": "2021-07-23", "guest": "Hugh Grant", "title": "No More Mr. Nice Guy: Hugh Grant Embraces The 'Blessed Relief' Of Darker Roles", "question_index": 24, "text": "That's a terrible mistake to make.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That happened, yeah."}
{"id": "1019294251", "date": "2021-07-23", "guest": "Hugh Grant", "title": "No More Mr. Nice Guy: Hugh Grant Embraces The 'Blessed Relief' Of Darker Roles", "question_index": 25, "text": "Did they hate you as a human being or did they just hate your performance?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, terrible. Anyway, then the \"Four Weddings\" script came through, and it was really funny. And I went for the audition. And Richard Curtis, who'd written it, hated me. And Duncan Kenworthy, who was"}
{"id": "1019294251", "date": "2021-07-23", "guest": "Hugh Grant", "title": "No More Mr. Nice Guy: Hugh Grant Embraces The 'Blessed Relief' Of Darker Roles", "question_index": 26, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They may have hated me as a human being. What they hated was - I don't think they even hated my performance, to be honest. I think what they hated was the guy, as written, was meant to be like Richard"}
{"id": "1019294251", "date": "2021-07-23", "guest": "Hugh Grant", "title": "No More Mr. Nice Guy: Hugh Grant Embraces The 'Blessed Relief' Of Darker Roles", "question_index": 27, "text": "So how old were you when that film was released?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Which was ironic because that haircut then became quite a thing people wanted after that film. But it was meant to be the world's worst haircut."}
{"id": "1019294251", "date": "2021-07-23", "guest": "Hugh Grant", "title": "No More Mr. Nice Guy: Hugh Grant Embraces The 'Blessed Relief' Of Darker Roles", "question_index": 28, "text": "Oh, so you weren't - you weren't in your 20s anymore. 'Cause, like, you got really super famous after that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was - I - well, 34, I think. Yeah."}
{"id": "1019294251", "date": "2021-07-23", "guest": "Hugh Grant", "title": "No More Mr. Nice Guy: Hugh Grant Embraces The 'Blessed Relief' Of Darker Roles", "question_index": 29, "text": "So you campaigned against Brexit. And Boris Johnson was one of the leading supporters of Brexit. You tweeted to Boris Johnson, you will not destroy the freedoms my grandfather fought two world wars to defend. Did your grandfather tell you stories about World War I?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I feel safe here. Well, you know, around the corner, I've got five screaming children and a whole other life."}
{"id": "1019294251", "date": "2021-07-23", "guest": "Hugh Grant", "title": "No More Mr. Nice Guy: Hugh Grant Embraces The 'Blessed Relief' Of Darker Roles", "question_index": 30, "text": "So how did he fight in World War II after that experience?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he never spoke about World War I, no. He did talk about the second war. World War I, he was underage to join up. And he was rejected and then tried again and gave a false age and was sent out to"}
{"id": "1019294251", "date": "2021-07-23", "guest": "Hugh Grant", "title": "No More Mr. Nice Guy: Hugh Grant Embraces The 'Blessed Relief' Of Darker Roles", "question_index": 31, "text": "You're kidding me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So when the second war came along, he was, you know - I can't - in his 30s. And he went out when the British Expeditionary Force went out at the beginning of the war, horrendously under-equipped in re"}
{"id": "1019294251", "date": "2021-07-23", "guest": "Hugh Grant", "title": "No More Mr. Nice Guy: Hugh Grant Embraces The 'Blessed Relief' Of Darker Roles", "question_index": 32, "text": "What was that conversation like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Who'd turned him in. No. It's good, isn't it?"}
{"id": "1019294251", "date": "2021-07-23", "guest": "Hugh Grant", "title": "No More Mr. Nice Guy: Hugh Grant Embraces The 'Blessed Relief' Of Darker Roles", "question_index": 33, "text": "It's amazing he survived. What was it like to grow up with these stories? These are very frightening stories.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was all right. I think it was cordial."}
{"id": "1019294251", "date": "2021-07-23", "guest": "Hugh Grant", "title": "No More Mr. Nice Guy: Hugh Grant Embraces The 'Blessed Relief' Of Darker Roles", "question_index": 34, "text": "Did this make you want to go to war yourself, like, to be a soldier?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no, we loved them. You know, I mean, little boys love that stuff. Upstairs, I have my grandfather's escape kit that was disguised as his artist's kit. So it's a - it's like a wooden box made from "}
{"id": "1019294251", "date": "2021-07-23", "guest": "Hugh Grant", "title": "No More Mr. Nice Guy: Hugh Grant Embraces The 'Blessed Relief' Of Darker Roles", "question_index": 35, "text": "Did you see Germans as your enemy growing up, even though the war had ended years ago?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "are entertained these days, but we loved it."}
{"id": "1019294251", "date": "2021-07-23", "guest": "Hugh Grant", "title": "No More Mr. Nice Guy: Hugh Grant Embraces The 'Blessed Relief' Of Darker Roles", "question_index": 36, "text": "That's pretty funny. Well, Hugh Grant, thank you so much for talking with us. It's been great to talk with you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the British have always had a strange relationship with the Germans. But no, not at all. I admire the Germans now, but my grandfather - and like them. I have some excellent German friends. But I"}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Jad Abumrad, is the producer of Radiolab, a nationally broadcast public radio show and podcast that originates from WNYC in New York. He's considered to be a radio genius, like Ira Glass. As evidence, Jad is the recipient of a MacArthur Fellowship, the so-called Genius Award. For about 17 years, he cohosted Radiolab with Robert Krulwich. They started off doing deep dives into science-related stories with highly produced narratives in which the voices were almost scored like music. Composing film scores was Jad's initial aspiration. The show's focus evolved from stories about science-based reality to conflicting versions of truth and reality. Robert Krulwich retired from the show last year. Jad continues to produce the show and co-reports Radiolab's miniseries. The podcast series \"Dolly Parton's America,\" co-reported by Jad, won seven awards, including a Peabody. It used her life, music, theme park and personality to get to larger issues about messy relationships, women's rights, how the civil war continues to play out and how music can bring together people who otherwise might disagree on nearly everything. The new Radiolab miniseries is called \"The Vanishing Of Harry Pace.\" You may be thinking, Harry who? It's one thing to get people interested in a miniseries about Dolly Parton. But how do you get listeners to believe that a miniseries about a man they've never heard of is worth their time? Here's how. From the opening episode, this is Jad talking about Harry Pace's grandchildren, who grew up knowing very little about Pace except that he was white and probably Italian.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 1, "text": "OK. Jad Abumrad, welcome to FRESH AIR. I'm so glad I heard this series. It's really just fantastic. And congratulations on it. And I want to start giving a shout out to Shima Oliaee, who co-reports the series with you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wow. So you're telling me we're related to this unsung hero, and you want me to just sit here and laugh about it? I got to go understand this."}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 2, "text": "Oh, gee. Oh, thanks. I'm excited to have you. So I just have to say, there's so much to talk about with you. And I couldn't figure out how to start, exactly. Do you go through that when you're about to start a project? Like, where do you begin? Like, what's the right note to start on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm sorry, Terry. It's just - I just got to tell you, like, I do what you do. And it's just such an honor to be here because you are the best. And so I'm just really excited."}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 3, "text": "I feel better already", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And actually, I mean, the clip that you played was the 12th beginning of the series."}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And actually, I mean, the clip that you played was the 12th beginning of the series."}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 5, "text": "So my doorway into \"The Vanishing Of Harry Pace\" was hearing that he founded Black Swan Records, which was, like, the first Black-owned record company - 1921 to '23 - the first to record Ethel Waters, first to record the Black national anthem, \"Lift Every Voice And Sing.\" I mean, it's just, like, remarkable recordings. And I'm really interested in music from that period. So I thought, like, yeah, I got to hear this. And then you started taking me into all these other directions, which were equally fascinating. But I was, like, not really prepared for it. What was your doorway into wanting to tell this story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Because so many didn't work."}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 6, "text": "And just to mention here, like, he starts off being mentored by W. E. B. Du Bois. They found, like, what was probably the first Black magazine together. Then he works with W. C. Handy. They found a sheet music publishing company and co-write \"St. Louis Blues\" and \"Beale Street Blues.\" I mean, it's just a remarkable story. And then there's a whole racial story in there about, what color was he really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so, you know, you mentioned \"Dolly Parton's America.\" So Shina and I had made that series. And one of the voices in that series was a guy named Paul Slade, who - he's this British music journali"}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 7, "text": "Embedded in this story is a bit of a personal connection for you. One of the grandsons talks about his racial confusion because he grew up thinking he's white. And now he thinks, maybe I'm really Black. Like, was my grandfather Black? He was really light skinned. But apparently, he was really Black. But on a census report, he said he was white. So, you know, the grandson is, like, really confused and asked, like, so what am I? And you say in the podcast that you were asked when you were growing up. So what are you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, your parents immigrated from Lebanon during the Lebanese civil war. Was it '82 that they came here?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. No. It's a connection that I and my co-creator, Shima, make very cautiously because, you know, we're both Middle Eastern. And, you know, you walk into a room and people think you're one thing. T"}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 9, "text": "Oh, '72. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They came here in '72, actually. So..."}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 10, "text": "Right. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, just..."}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 11, "text": "In Lebanon?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Just before I was born and just as the war was really starting to slide into chaos."}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 12, "text": "So you grew up in Tennessee. Your father was a professor of surgery at Vanderbilt.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 13, "text": "So were you, like, a campus kid?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right, yeah."}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 14, "text": "Radiolab initially focused on science. Was part of the reason why you wanted to do that because you grew up partially in this lab? And was science more fun because you had rats?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I was. I mean, I would - my after-school was basically hanging out in - so both my parents are - well, my mother's a molecular biologist. My dad's a surgeon. And my after-school was hanging out "}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 15, "text": "Like, you had little animals to watch? It wasn't just, like, test tubes and textbooks.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I was. I mean, I would - my after-school was basically hanging out in - so both my parents are - well, my mother's a molecular biologist. My dad's a surgeon. And my after-school was hanging out "}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 16, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "to science."}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 17, "text": "I think it's time for a break, so let's take a break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jad Abumrad, the creator of the public radio show and podcast Radiolab. The new Radiolab miniseries he co-reports is called The Vanishing Of Harry Pace. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So - but, you know, I mean fast-forwarding to those early days of Radiolab where I became kind of - essentially a science reporter, part of it was about coming back into the family fold in some sense."}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jad Abumrad, the creator and producer of the public radio show and podcast Radiolab. He co-reports the new Radiolab miniseries \"The Vanishing Of Harry Pace.\" He also co-reported the miniseries \"Dolly Parton's America.\" So this kind of segues into Dolly Parton because your doorway into Dolly Parton was, in part, the fact that she and your father, the surgeon, became friends. So just tell the story of how they met.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So - but, you know, I mean fast-forwarding to those early days of Radiolab where I became kind of - essentially a science reporter, part of it was about coming back into the family fold in some sense."}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's just one of those strange, you know, the universe is stranger than you could imagine kind of moments. So I grew up in Nashville, Tenn., and Nashville is Dolly's world. I mean, I guess the w"}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yeah, it's a fascinating series because you get into so much about race and North-South divisions and what is the meaning of feminism. And it's very, very rich. And you found a very personal connection in her story, too, and I want to play a clip from that. You go to Dollywood, and you see, like, a replica of the mountain shack that she grew up in. And you decide, well, I'm going to go to the real shack. So you go to the mountain. You go to the real shack. It's beautiful - beautiful mountain, pristine forests. And you have this memory that seems to be intruding. It's kind of not quite a deja vu but a rhyme of another memory. And you're puzzling through that, and then you have a realization. So here's the clip in which you describe the realization you had when you were standing in Dolly Parton's shack where she grew up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But then 2016 - this was during the Hillary Clinton-Donald Trump election cycle - Dolly Parton did a concert in Queens. You know, I work in New York, and I was just thunderstruck by how excited everyb"}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 21, "text": "OK. That's a clip from \"Dolly Parton's America\" co-reported by my guest, Jad Abumrad, who is the creator of Radiolab. I love, you know, later on, when you talk to Dolly Parton in this part of the series, she ends by saying, you never really know your parents like other people do. And when I heard that, I thought, oh, yeah, that's so true.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What you mean? I'm Naji Abumrad. I'm your father."}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 22, "text": "And so was she, in a way, a doorway to getting to know a part of your father that you otherwise might not have known?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 23, "text": "Let me introduce you here because it's time for another break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jad Abumrad, the creator of the public radio show and podcast Radiolab. He co-reports the new Radiolab miniseries, \"The Vanishing Of Harry Pace.\" He also co-reported the miniseries \"Dolly Parton's America.\" We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's exactly that. I mean, that line - when she said that to me, it struck me, really. I was - it kind of stopped me in my tracks because she was a doorway. She is a doorway. I mean, there's som"}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Jad Abumrad, the creator and co-host of the public radio show and podcast Radiolab. It started off as a deep dive into science-related stories, then opened up to other stories where there was a meaningful conflict to investigate or mystery to solve. He co-reports the new Radiolab miniseries \"The Vanishing Of Harry Pace.\" He also co-reported the miniseries \"Dolly Parton's America.\" History played such a big part in the miniseries that you've been doing, in all of the miniseries that you've been doing. And, you know, like with Dolly Parton, the Civil War figures into it because at Dollywood, there used to be something called Dolly's Dixie Stampede when - which people in the audience are divided into two teams, North and South, and they're competing with each other. And of course, Dixie figures into the title. And she's called out for it eventually in a piece by Aisha Harris. And she takes Dixie out of the name and changes it from North Pole to South Pole so it doesn't seem so Civil War-ish. So that - I mean, excuse me for doing such a short and not very good version of that, but the point - the larger point I want to make", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Sitting on the front porch on a summer afternoon in a straight-back chair on two legs leaned against the wall, watch the kids a-playing with June bugs on a string and chase the glowing firef"}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 25, "text": "is that the echoes of the Civil War still figure into our culture and certainly figure into your miniseries, \"Dolly Parton's America.\" And of course, your father left Lebanon because of civil war, so, like, civil war is a - it's a part of your life. You haven't directly experienced it, but it's there in the shadows of your life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Sitting on the front porch on a summer afternoon in a straight-back chair on two legs leaned against the wall, watch the kids a-playing with June bugs on a string and chase the glowing firef"}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 26, "text": "So you wanted to be a film composer. You studied composition. What was the transition into radio? How did you - what made you think you wanted to work in radio?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, I'd never made that connection, but you're absolutely right. You know, it's funny. It's - and therein lies, I think, one of the principal differences. You know, the Civil W"}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 27, "text": "Oh, yeah. There were always dramas like that going on at WBAI", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I was at that moment where I was trying to write music for films. I realized I was kind of sucking at it. And I was also simultaneously working in this new industry called the internet. This"}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 28, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I was at that moment where I was trying to write music for films. I realized I was kind of sucking at it. And I was also simultaneously working in this new industry called the internet. This"}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 29, "text": "Oh, how did - did you try to change your voice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God. Oh, my God. It's just, like, such a - like, just one drama after another. And I happened to walk into the middle of one where there was no one in the newsroom. And they needed bodies. And "}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 30, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, I did. I did the whole - I did the Walter Cronkite thing where (in staccato) I talk like this so everyone would take me seriously. And then I realized that that's just ridiculous. And then I"}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 31, "text": "I think I need to take another break here. So let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jad Abumrad, the creator of the public radio show and podcast Radiolab. The new Radiolab miniseries is called \"The Vanishing Of Harry Pace.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, you know, I look back on that period between when I was first getting in to when someone first recognized me, which was, you know, years. Years went by. And I was largely ignored during that time."}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 32, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jad Abumrad, the creator and producer of the public radio show and podcast Radiolab. And the new Radiolab miniseries is called \"The Vanishing Of Harry Pace.\" So, Jad, in the \"Dolly Parton's America\" miniseries, you mention that early in your career, you were taking your tape recorder everywhere. Did you become obsessive about recording everything in case it would figure into a story, in case you could, like, use it sometime?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, you know, I look back on that period between when I was first getting in to when someone first recognized me, which was, you know, years. Years went by. And I was largely ignored during that time."}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 33, "text": "One of the things that you do that - on Radiolab is that you have - you're kind of, like, scoring voices as if it was music. And you might have, like, three people in the course of one sentence, each one stating a phrase. And the phrases all follow as if one person - like, if you were writing it, it would look like one person saying that sentence. But when you hear it, it's voiced by three separate people. And this is all taken, like, from interviews. It's not like they're reading their part. So I want to play an example of that. And so this is from a show that you did called \"Lost And Found,\" and the story being told in this - and don't worry if this is confusing because it's not about the story that - it's not the story I want our listeners to hear. It's the production work. It was about a woman with a rare, like, neurological disorder in which she had episodes in which everything around her seemed unfamiliar. She couldn't even recognize her own home. And doctors said there was no explanation, and finally she was told, you need a psychiatrist, until she met a doctor who was studying face blindness and saw the connection between her kind of spatial blindness and face blindness. So I want to play a clip from that, and listen for the production style.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, it's - I imagine this is what people do when they first get into my line of work. I mean, I had a tape recorder, and I was just initially fascinated with just recording just spaces, soun"}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 34, "text": "So, Jad, how did you come up with that style?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Developmental topographical disorientation."}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 35, "text": "I'm trying to imagine practically how you do that. Like, do you have transcripts and try to find the phrases that will match, you know, so that you can piece together different voices and have them be coherently formed into one sentence?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wow. It's weird to hear that because that's, like, a montage of memories. I think maybe it was - coming out of music school, one of the few things that really stuck in my head in music school was coun"}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 36, "text": "Yeah", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "These days, yes. Back in the days when I was making the thing we just - that you just played, I think typically what would happen is you're editing a sentence. And as you know, you know, people start "}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 37, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "These days, yes. Back in the days when I was making the thing we just - that you just played, I think typically what would happen is you're editing a sentence. And as you know, you know, people start "}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 38, "text": "I know that feeling.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know?"}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 39, "text": "So in 2016, you took a break from Radiolab for four months. I know you probably really needed a break. This is real detail work. It's, like, big-picture and tiny, micro-picture, too. You're working on so many levels at the same time. So I can understand why you'd need a break. But why did you actually decide you're going to take the break? Because there's a big gap between feeling like you need a break and actually taking it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wish they finished by going down rather than going up. Everybody - and it's a sentence going up. And, you know, OK, so let me go find somebody else who finishes the sentence in the way I wish the fi"}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 40, "text": "I know what you're talking about because there's times I feel like, oh, God, I need a vacation so badly. And then I'm on vacation, and I'll tune in an interview on our show and think, like, what an interesting job. I wish I could do that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, it's everything you said. But it's also - you know, there's - at the heart of the way that I work - or worked, I should say; I feel like I've changed a lot since that break, largely as a"}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 41, "text": "And I was like, wait a minute.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 42, "text": "And so that's - yeah. That's a really interesting phenomenon.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 43, "text": "Yeah", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I think it's very healing to hear that, you know..."}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 44, "text": "My guest is Jad Abumrad, the creator of the public radio show and podcast Radiolab. The new Radiolab miniseries he co-reports is called \"The Vanishing Of Harry Pace.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Because you need that perspective. And I needed it. And I realized, oh, not only does the team - can the team work really, really well without me, but I do need to walk out of the room more so that"}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 45, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jad Abumrad, the creator and producer of the public radio show and podcast Radiolab. He co-reports the new Radiolab miniseries \"The Vanishing Of Harry Pace.\" He also co-reported the miniseries \"Dolly Parton's America.\" For years, you hosted Radiolab with Robert Krulwich. And there's - I don't know - a 20-something-year difference between your ages. He was really one of the early reporters on NPR. He did some brilliant stuff because he was an economics reporter, and he made it fun to listen to his reports. He turned it into, like, comedy and musicals. So he was just amazingly creative. How did that age gap, the generational distance between you, work out in terms of your personal relationship and professional one? Were there times when it, like, was really a helpful dynamic and times when you didn't quite understand each other's perspective?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Because you need that perspective. And I needed it. And I realized, oh, not only does the team - can the team work really, really well without me, but I do need to walk out of the room more so that"}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 46, "text": "Yeah. I think it was last year that he retired from the show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Yes, to all of it. You know, we - initially when we met, we met kind of in a fluke-ish sort of way and then became friends and then breakfast companions before we worked together. And I met "}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 47, "text": "Well, Jad, it's really been great to talk with you. I really appreciate it. And I really appreciate your work. So thank you. Thank you for the interview. Thank you for Radiolab and your miniseries and all the great stuff you've done. It opens up your ears and your mind to listen.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 48, "text": "Well, you've made my day, my week. Thank you so much. Jad Abumrad is the creator of the public radio show and podcast Radiolab. He co-reports the new Radiolab miniseries \"The Vanishing Of Harry Pace.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll talk about how the delta variant is changing the course of the pandemic and how we should respond. My guest will be Dr. Leana Wen, an emergency care physician, former Baltimore health commissioner and a CNN medical analyst and Washington Post columnist. Her new memoir is about coming to the U.S. as a poor immigrant from China, relying on the public health care system and becoming a doctor. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you. And I'll just say back to you, Terry, you are the person that we all sort of idolize and chase in terms of how to do the job with integrity and thoughtfulness. And it's just such an h"}
{"id": "1019369946", "date": "2021-07-26", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Jad Abumrad, 'Radiolab' Creator And Co-Host, Got Hooked On Storytelling", "question_index": 49, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham with help today from Al Banks. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Kayla Latimore. Our producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you. And I'll just say back to you, Terry, you are the person that we all sort of idolize and chase in terms of how to do the job with integrity and thoughtfulness. And it's just such an h"}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The movie \"Moonlight,\" which won the Oscar for best picture in 2017, was adapted from a script by my guest, Tarell Alvin McCraney. He and the film's director, Barry Jenkins, won an Oscar for best adapted screenplay. McCraney is now the creator of the series \"David Makes Man,\" where he's also an executive producer and writer. It's in its second season on OWN, The Oprah Winfrey Network. Like \"Moonlight,\" it begins with a boy growing up in the projects in a Miami neighborhood who's neglected by his crack-addicted mother, which echoes McCraney's childhood. But in \"David Makes Man,\" the mother is able to get clean and stay sober. David is very smart and is one of two Black students in the gifted and talented class at his magnet school. He manages to get into prep school, where he's again one of the few Black students, and he's surrounded by students from families with money. The code-switching required, going back-and-forth from the projects to school, is confusing and complicated. In Season 2, we fast-forward to David as an adult. He's become a successful businessman and is doing the marketing for a developer with political aspirations who's trying to revitalize the neighborhood where David grew up. But some people see David as just the Black face for a development company trying to get zoning permission to tear down the projects, build a shopping mall and gentrify the neighborhood with no concerns about displacing the people who live there. Meanwhile, David is still haunted by the shame and trauma of his childhood. Tarell Alvin McCraney is a graduate of what is now called the David Geffen School of Drama at Yale, where he now chairs the playwriting program. When he was a student at the Yale School of Drama, he became August Wilson's assistant. In 2013, McCraney won a MacArthur Fellowship, aka the Genius Award. Tarell Alvin McCraney, welcome back to FRESH AIR. It's a pleasure to have you back on our show. The last time we spoke, \"Moonlight\" had just been released. The film since won three Oscars, including yours for best adapted screenplay. How has your life changed since then?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Oh. Oh, thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "First of all, thanks for having me back. And it was lovely speaking to you then, and I've since become a fan, so thanks so much."}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 2, "text": "Why not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's really interesting. After the Academy Awards, you know, a lot of opportunities sort of showed up at my doorstep, and I kind of, you know, didn't take a lot of them."}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 3, "text": "It - this reminds me so much of David in \"David Makes Man\" in the sense that - I mean, he's very different from you, but he, like you, seems haunted by the trauma of the past and is having, like, difficulty getting past that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Vanity Fair party with all these, you know, amazing things happening and stories to tell. But I couldn't - there was just nothing - I wasn't feeling excited. I was feeling scared and nervous and out o"}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Oh, so they've been torn down to create a more gentrified neighborhood?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. No, the - I mean, the - it's interesting that, you know, as a young person, when you grow up in neighborhoods like that in Homestead or in Miami or in New York, everybody's like, oh, you got to "}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 5, "text": "I was reading that there's something now called climate gentrification in Liberty City, where you grew up and where \"David Makes Man\" was shot and also where \"Moonlight\" was shot. That's in an elevated area. And with all the storms and the flooding in South Florida, an elevated area is, like, safer from climate change and that that's one of the reasons why Liberty City has been gentrified.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They are what they call a multiuse facility now. So they have, you know, mixed housing with some affordable housing, some market price, some - but all of the - and that is - that was one of the oldest"}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 6, "text": "One of the similarities between you and your character David is, like we said, the trauma. You know, David's mother was crack addicted. She gets sober in the series and is really a kind of changed person. But for you, like, your mother never made it to that, and she died of complications from AIDS. And how old were you when she died?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, realtors will deny it. They'll say, no, these areas just have good zoning laws or rights. And I was like, well, they've had those same zoning permits and strictures for years. You know, they've "}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Wait. Can I stop you there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Twenty-two. There's actually two differences. I mean, you know, my mother had a crack addiction, but also suffered from severe depression and undiagnosed and was rarely offered any access or resources"}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Can you give us an example of what you're talking about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Like, all of a sudden, I need to run a playwriting program and write, you know, a television show. And, you know, for example, I remember one time I was flying back and forth from Miami to New Y"}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Was it also about giving you a sense of, like, a positive identity? Like, I have achieved this. I'm not just my past. I'm not just, like, the trauma-stricken child. I have these achievements. I have these awards.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What are you talking about? Like, why are you skipping out on the Vanity Fair party with Halle Berry and, like - you know, there are people there that I've just loved my entire life. And then you comp"}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Did you just stop? Or did you just, like, cut back a little bit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes and no. I mean, I think the part that's absolutely right that I will underline is it gives me a sense of worth, right? I am - because often, I am - I was told that I'm not worth much, right? I'm B"}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 12, "text": "But did that mean telling people, like, sorry, I'm not going to meet the deadline, sorry, you're not going to have the play that I promised I was going to write?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just stopped a couple of times. I just stopped. I kind of just, like - and - but that..."}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 13, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, lots of that. But - or I would just finish everything and go, nope, don't ask me for anything else."}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Tarell Alvin McCraney. He created the series \"David Makes Man,\" which is now on Season 2 on the Oprah Winfrey Network. We'll be right back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Or I can't do this anymore or setting deadlines of, like, yo, I'm not - that's - you know, this is it. I'm not interested in anything further than this, or, you know, my engagement is thus. And, you k"}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Tarell Alvin McCraney. He won an Oscar, along with Barry Jenkins, for Best Adapted Screenplay for the movie \"Moonlight,\" which also won the 2017 Oscar for Best Picture. McCraney is the creator and executive producer of the series \"David Makes Man,\" which is now in its second season on OWN, the Oprah Winfrey Network. David, in your series, and the main character, Chiron, in \"Moonlight\" - they were exposed to violence, growing up in the projects. And it sounds like violence is something you were exposed to, too. There was a person in your life, kind of like in \"Moonlight,\" who was both a drug dealer and your mother's boyfriend and a kind of father figure to you, who was shot and killed. This might be too personal to ask, but in addition to witnessing violence, were you the victim of it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Or I can't do this anymore or setting deadlines of, like, yo, I'm not - that's - you know, this is it. I'm not interested in anything further than this, or, you know, my engagement is thus. And, you k"}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 16, "text": "Like what?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's not personal. It's in - it's in everything. I mean, in \"Moonlight,\" the - you know, it's so funny because I remember Barry called me a couple of times and wrote to me or"}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For example..."}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 18, "text": "This was in \"Moonlight.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, because everyone is like, well, did Kevin really befriend you one day and then walk into the spill-out area and, you know, play a game called Knock Down, Stay Down, where he punched you over and"}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 19, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here, because it's time for us to take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Tarell Alvin McCraney. He created the series \"David Makes Man,\" which is now in Season 2 on the Oprah Winfrey Network. And he won an Oscar for best adapted screenplay for the movie \"Moonlight.\" We'll talk more after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know if it was confusing as much as it was exhausting. And I say that, and I really mean that. And it's still exhausting, the social kind of interactions of all - I mean, everybody code-switch"}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Tarell Alvin McCraney. The 2016 film \"Moonlight\" was adapted from his script. He and Barry Jenkins won an Oscar for Best Adapted Screenplay, and the film \"Moonlight\" won for Best Picture. McCraney created the series \"David Makes Man\" and serves as an executive producer and writer. It's now in its second season on OWN, The Oprah Winfrey Network. You know, we've been talking about, like, childhood trauma and kind of carrying that and the chaos of childhood into adult life and what you've been doing to try to work your way out of that. Your character in \"David Makes Man\" really lives in his head, and he actually sees people who aren't there. He sees his dead father figure who sometimes gives him good advice and sometimes bad advice. But he literally sees him and talks with him. And it's disturbing to him that this happens because he knows he's dead and yet he's appearing to him. And it happens with - he sees his younger brother when his younger brother isn't there. And I'm wondering - I imagine you've lived very much in your head for most of your life. And I'm wondering if your imagination ever went that far as literally seeing people as if they were there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know if it was confusing as much as it was exhausting. And I say that, and I really mean that. And it's still exhausting, the social kind of interactions of all - I mean, everybody code-switch"}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Was the purpose, like, a test for yourself, like, can I survive this? Like, say this person I love dies. Can I survive this? What would I need to do to survive?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. I don't think so. I do - what I do is something very similar, though. I imagine people passing away because I was - when I was growing up, I was used to, you know, coming - I came home a"}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 22, "text": "You know, you mentioned earlier that your mother suffered from undiagnosed depression. How old were you when you realized that? And did it help you understand and forgive her, knowing that she had an untreated mental health issue?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It would - it's stay ready. Stay ready. Chaos is all around us. This is what happens. Stay ready. And it was a test to figure out, like, how much - I knew I loved you or I cared about you if I had - i"}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Did you talk with her about that and say, look, I think you're suffering from depression, you should get...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I had to be 13. And the therapist at the magnet school that I was at, at Mays Middle in Goulds, said, you know, I think you might be depressed. And I said, oh, maybe. And then they started telling"}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 24, "text": "...Help for that? What was her reaction?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Did you have to keep things like that a secret, if not in the projects, when you were in school?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, you know, she sort - there were two things. One, she was very receptive to say, you know, sometimes I don't feel great. But then the other part was, well, I'm not an addict, so this doesn't ma"}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 26, "text": "Did you move in with them or did they move in with you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I didn't. And I - and there are parts of me that wished that I had because we almost ended up in the foster system because of it. And we were - you know, when people started realizing that - bec"}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 27, "text": "Did you become close with your father?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, we moved in with them. So my sister - my younger brother and sister moved in with my aunt, and I moved - my brother and I moved in with my dad and my grandparents."}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 28, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Tarell Alvin McCraney. He created the series \"David Makes Man,\" which is now on Season 2 on the Oprah Winfrey Network. We'll be right back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wouldn't say close. I would say - I mean, we are closer now. But at that time, not really, because, again, you had this kid who was, again, 13, 14, used to surviving on their own, now being asked to"}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. My guest is Tarell Alvin McCraney. He created the series \"David Makes Man,\" which is now on Season 2 on the Oprah Winfrey Network. Was there any less code switching that you had to do in the performing arts school because you were dealing with people aspiring to be artists, and a lot of artists feel like they're different from other people? And I don't mean that like I'm better than, but just like they're on their own wavelength. And they understand other people who are on their own wavelength. And a lot of artists suffer from depression and understand what that is intuitively, even if they don't have the language.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wouldn't say close. I would say - I mean, we are closer now. But at that time, not really, because, again, you had this kid who was, again, 13, 14, used to surviving on their own, now being asked to"}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 30, "text": "OK. Yeah. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, well, it took me - I mean, no. There was still code switching. I mean, I still..."}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 31, "text": "Is that a wealthy community?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I went to - I was in school with, you know, the student - you know, with students who lived on Star Island. So there was still..."}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 32, "text": "Oh, OK", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Sorry. Star Island is where Puff Daddy lives..."}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 33, "text": ". Say no more.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Sorry. Star Island is where Puff Daddy lives..."}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 34, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And Will Smith."}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Did you have the kind of pressure that your character does of thinking, like, only one Black person is going to be allowed to succeed here, and it's got to be me?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And - yeah. And so it was not Liberty City. And so I was being bused into - you know, I was taking the train from Liberty City to this school that was small and intimate, but also filled with students"}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 36, "text": "That certainly increases the pressure, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, not at my art school, but in an undergrad, for sure, and even in grad school. The more the elite the institution, the more that that's true. There was - there only graduated two Black men in my a"}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 37, "text": "Well, talk a little bit about being August Wilson's assistant - at what point in his career? Was he - had he written \"Fences,\" \"The Piano Lesson,\" \"Ma Rainey's Black Bottom\"? Where was he?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it just increases the - you know, it increases a whole bunch of things. It increases the ability to feel like you're in it for the actual art, right? Or rather, are you there to represent who yo"}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 38, "text": "Well, what were you expected to do? And why do you say you were terrible?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. He had - actually, he was working on his last play in the cycle of plays, \"Radio Golf.\" And that was to premiere at Yale, which a number of his other plays had done previous - before they we"}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 39, "text": "You're not doing anything about it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm bad at keeping my own schedule, let alone, you know, keeping August Wilson's. And so I was sent to sort of help him maintain and manage his schedule with both Yale and the production. And I "}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 40, "text": "That's a lovely story. What did you put on the iPod?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You have to go find - you know? And then I would go, oh, yeah. OK. Cool. Great. Got it. And I would just go do it. And then, once, he sent me off to buy - and I think I - I don't know if I've ev"}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 41, "text": "Good, I want to talk about \"Choir Boy.\" And why don't you give us a brief description of the play.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I put these spirituals, these Gullah Island spirituals on it. And I would listen to them all the time. And that actually inspired \"Choir Boy.\""}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 42, "text": "Your grandfather was the minister of a Baptist church. Did you spend a lot of time in his church when you were growing up? Did you sing in a choir?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Choir Boy\" centers around a young man named Pharus, who's the lead of Charles R. Drew Prep's prestigious glee club, which has won national acclaim for this high school. And Pharus, who is an effemina"}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 43, "text": "Did you read the Bible, too? Did you find beauty in the Bible?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did sing in the choir. I didn't sing in the choir at his church, but I did sing in the choir. I don't - I can't sing. I don't know why anybody would let me in their choir, but I did spend a lot of t"}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 44, "text": "Do spirituals speak to you? I don't know if you're religious and if so, how much a part of your life that is. But I think spirituals and hymns, gospel music, that they have a universal message whether or not you are a believer in a God. There's songs about endurance. There's songs about resilience. There's songs about living in a world with something larger than yourself.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, still do."}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 45, "text": "Oh, and let me just say, there's songs about death. I mean, so many hymns and spirituals are really about death.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's what all great art should do, is remind us that there's something larger than ourselves and that there is resilience and that there are different ways in which we engage it, but that we are mor"}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 46, "text": "And change, yeah. And these are all themes that we've been talking about, you know, in the interview. So I want to play an excerpt of \"Motherless Child\" as sung in your play \"Choir Boy.\" And the version we're going to use - 'cause there - it's not like there's a cast recording. The version we're going to use comes from The New York Times, which...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And change."}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 47, "text": "...Had the wisdom to do a video of this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 48, "text": "And so you can see the whole performance of this song on the New York Times' website at nytimes.com. So here's \"Motherless Child,\" as performed in Tarell Alvin McCraney's play \"Choir Boy.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 49, "text": "That was \"Motherless Child\" as performed in my guest Tarell Alvin McCraney's play \"Choir Boy.\" And again, if you want to see the whole song, go to the New York Times' website.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I'm a long way from home."}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 50, "text": "It's frustrating. You know, I'd love to have more that I could listen to at home.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "have a cast recording."}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 51, "text": "Some of it was performed on the Tonys, and that was great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 52, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Tarell Alvin McCraney. He created the series \"David Makes Man,\" which is now in Season 2 on the Oprah Winfrey Network. We'll talk more after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was. And I think it would be great if they did a cast recording."}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 53, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Tarell Alvin McCraney. He won an Oscar along with Barry Jenkins for best adapted screenplay for the movie \"Moonlight,\" which also won the 2017 Oscar for best picture. McCraney is the creator and executive producer of the series \"David Makes Man,\" which is now in its second season on OWN, the Oprah Winfrey Network. You also wrote a play called \"Wig Out!\", which is set in...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was. And I think it would be great if they did a cast recording."}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 54, "text": "And I read that you dated someone. Dated sounds like such an old-fashioned word, like you're going to the malt shop together and having an ice cream soda. But...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's set in drag houses, yeah."}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 55, "text": "Oh, OK", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 56, "text": ". But that you dated somebody who lived in a drag house. And I wonder if that required, like, another form of code switching for you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 57, "text": "And the language has changed so much since then.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Listen. At this point, we should just assume everything does. You know what I mean? For me, and that's one of the things like I have to work on, is that I'm always doing it - and even in that moment, "}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 58, "text": "Oh, no, I understand what you mean, because things have progressed. Things are - yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. We've got - we've made great strides that we - and we need to do more. And we need to protect Black trans women particularly, but trans women in general, way more than we do. And I think t"}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 59, "text": "When you were growing up - getting back to your childhood - did you have somebody like a younger brother who you had to protect, who you felt the responsibility for protecting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We have language now. Like, now there are young people who are my age at the time who are dating, you know, people who are trans and non binary with the language to discuss it and understand it. And a"}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 60, "text": "Well, this has just been so good to talk with you. I really appreciate it so much. And I wish you good health. And I wish you all good things.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, for sure. I have two younger brothers and a younger sister. I'm the oldest of four. And not just them. I mean, so, for example, I remember when I had - when I did get friends, I would not want t"}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 61, "text": "Tarell Alvin McCraney won an Oscar for best adapted screenplay for the film \"Moonlight.\" He's the creator of the TV series \"David Makes Man,\" which is now in its second season on OWN, the Oprah Winfrey Network. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, spyware. We'll talk about how a private Israeli spyware company leased military-grade spyware to governments that were supposed to use it for tracking terrorists and criminals, but it was used to hack the phones of journalists, human rights activists, business executives and others. My guest will be Washington Post reporter Craig Timberg. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, same to you and yours. Thank you so much again. I appreciate the invitation."}
{"id": "1021731573", "date": "2021-07-28", "guest": "Tarell Alvin Mccraney", "title": "'Moonlight' Writer Tarell Alvin McCraney On His TV Series 'David Makes Man'", "question_index": 62, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Kayla Lattimore. Our producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, same to you and yours. Thank you so much again. I appreciate the invitation."}
{"id": "1022214491", "date": "2021-07-29", "guest": "Craig Timberg", "title": "Leaks Reveal Spyware Meant To Track Criminals Targeted Activists Instead", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Your worst nightmare about how a smartphone can be hacked to spy on its owner became a reality for 37 people around the world whose phones were infected by spyware or whose phones had an attempted penetration. These people included journalists, activists, business executives and two women close to the murdered Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi. A forensic analysis revealed that the phones had been penetrated by military-grade spyware called Pegasus, which had been licensed to governments by the private Israeli security company NSO Group. The company says that the Pegasus spyware it sells to governments is intended to collect data from suspected criminals and terrorists. But apparently, the reality is that the spyware was widely misused. The human rights group Amnesty International and a Paris-based journalism nonprofit called Forbidden Stories shared the forensic analysis of these devices with a consortium of more than 80 reporters from media organizations around the world, including The Washington Post. My guest, Craig Timberg, was one of the two coordinators of the project at the Post and one of its lead reporters. He covers technology for the Post, specializing in privacy, security and surveillance. This year, he's also been reporting on QAnon and the forum TheDonald.win, whose chatter about how to come prepared with weapons and build a gallows at the Capitol on January 6 should've been sufficient warning to the FBI and police about what to expect. Craig Timberg, welcome back to FRESH AIR. I want to start by saying that the NSO Group refutes a lot of what The Washington Post has reported, and we'll get to those denials a little bit later. But first, let's talk a little bit about your reporting. What is this spyware that we're talking about - Pegasus - capable of doing?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1022214491", "date": "2021-07-29", "guest": "Craig Timberg", "title": "Leaks Reveal Spyware Meant To Track Criminals Targeted Activists Instead", "question_index": 1, "text": "Yeah, I want to refer to two of the people quoted in the article. One is a journalist who said it's a tool that destroys the essential codes of civilization. It comes to your office, your home, your bed, every corner of your existence. This is from a dissident journalist who was targeted. And another journalist who was targeted talked about how really disturbing it was to know that this device could've been listening or shooting video every time this person went to a bathroom, no matter where the bathroom was.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Pegasus can do anything on your smartphone that you can do. It can read all of your communications. It can see where you've been in the world. It can see who you've called. It can see your social medi"}
{"id": "1022214491", "date": "2021-07-29", "guest": "Craig Timberg", "title": "Leaks Reveal Spyware Meant To Track Criminals Targeted Activists Instead", "question_index": 2, "text": "Now, I mentioned 37 people who were targeted, but you also had a list of 50,000 people or phones. What is that list of 50,000?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It takes a story like this to help people understand how deeply enmeshed these tiny, little computers have gotten into our - in our lives, right? I mean, I cover surveillance and privacy and have been"}
{"id": "1022214491", "date": "2021-07-29", "guest": "Craig Timberg", "title": "Leaks Reveal Spyware Meant To Track Criminals Targeted Activists Instead", "question_index": 3, "text": "Can you be more specific about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The list of 50,000, you know, includes some verified surveillance targets. And unfortunately, I have to be careful here about how I depict exactly what all is on there. But you think about it as kind "}
{"id": "1022214491", "date": "2021-07-29", "guest": "Craig Timberg", "title": "Leaks Reveal Spyware Meant To Track Criminals Targeted Activists Instead", "question_index": 4, "text": "Did you recognize any of the names on the list of 37?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's worth understanding that NSO Group has a lot of customers, and they're not all the same. And to be clear, as the company has pointed out to us in a hundred different ways and a hundred different "}
{"id": "1022214491", "date": "2021-07-29", "guest": "Craig Timberg", "title": "Leaks Reveal Spyware Meant To Track Criminals Targeted Activists Instead", "question_index": 5, "text": "And everyone you know might be endangered as a result.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "On the list of 37, these were largely but not exclusively journalists, and they were based predominantly in other countries. So, no, I didn't know them upfront. But interestingly, I knew some of them "}
{"id": "1022214491", "date": "2021-07-29", "guest": "Craig Timberg", "title": "Leaks Reveal Spyware Meant To Track Criminals Targeted Activists Instead", "question_index": 6, "text": "Is this why you write that critics say that the widespread use of this spyware has emerged as a leading threat to democracies around the world?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. I mean, people are endangered, but it's worth being careful with the vocabulary here. And we spent a lot of time at the Post and, you know, with our partner organizations trying to get the la"}
{"id": "1022214491", "date": "2021-07-29", "guest": "Craig Timberg", "title": "Leaks Reveal Spyware Meant To Track Criminals Targeted Activists Instead", "question_index": 7, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Craig Timberg, a national reporter covering technology for The Washington Post. We'll talk more after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. To use the example of someone like me, you know, when I was overseas, I was based in Johannesburg. I used to go in and out of Zimbabwe, you know, all the time. It was at that point the countr"}
{"id": "1022214491", "date": "2021-07-29", "guest": "Craig Timberg", "title": "Leaks Reveal Spyware Meant To Track Criminals Targeted Activists Instead", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Washington Post reporter Craig Timberg. He's been investigating how a private Israeli cybersecurity company called NSO Group licensed military-grade spyware called Pegasus to governments that were supposed to use it only for tracking terrorists and criminals, but some of those governments used it to hack the phones of journalists, human rights activists, business executives and others. What if you turn off your phone?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. To use the example of someone like me, you know, when I was overseas, I was based in Johannesburg. I used to go in and out of Zimbabwe, you know, all the time. It was at that point the countr"}
{"id": "1022214491", "date": "2021-07-29", "guest": "Craig Timberg", "title": "Leaks Reveal Spyware Meant To Track Criminals Targeted Activists Instead", "question_index": 9, "text": "But just technologically, if you turn off your phone, can you still be spied on through your phone?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So people take all sorts of measures to protect themselves from, you know, the knowledge that your iPhone or your Android device can be turned against you. You know, you can turn off your phone. You c"}
{"id": "1022214491", "date": "2021-07-29", "guest": "Craig Timberg", "title": "Leaks Reveal Spyware Meant To Track Criminals Targeted Activists Instead", "question_index": 10, "text": "Tell us about the company that sold this spyware, NSO Group. What do you know about them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Probably. You know, you all probably recall the days when you could, like, pop your battery out of your device. And this was my era when I was a foreign correspondent. You know, I'd go into Zimbabwe, "}
{"id": "1022214491", "date": "2021-07-29", "guest": "Craig Timberg", "title": "Leaks Reveal Spyware Meant To Track Criminals Targeted Activists Instead", "question_index": 11, "text": "So do any of the people in NSO Group have experience with Israeli military intelligence?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is a group that was started by some Israeli friends who were, you know, were trying to make it in the world of internet startups in Israel, which is quite a robust world. But they also had backgr"}
{"id": "1022214491", "date": "2021-07-29", "guest": "Craig Timberg", "title": "Leaks Reveal Spyware Meant To Track Criminals Targeted Activists Instead", "question_index": 12, "text": "Craig, the NSO has been in touch with you, the company that leases this spyware, with many objections to your reporting, and this has been an ongoing process for you and the other reporters at the Post covering this story. What have their objections been, and how has that affected what you've reported?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The NSO Group, like similar companies around the world, is heavily staffed by former spies. And this is true for a lot of cybersecurity companies in the United States. You get through the NSA, and you"}
{"id": "1022214491", "date": "2021-07-29", "guest": "Craig Timberg", "title": "Leaks Reveal Spyware Meant To Track Criminals Targeted Activists Instead", "question_index": 13, "text": "What are their objections to what you actually published 'cause I want to represent them in the story, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's been interesting to watch this process play out because in terms of communication with the company, I feel like this was a prepublication phase where, you know, they hired a lawyer, a defamation "}
{"id": "1022214491", "date": "2021-07-29", "guest": "Craig Timberg", "title": "Leaks Reveal Spyware Meant To Track Criminals Targeted Activists Instead", "question_index": 14, "text": "I think it's time for another break, so let me reintroduce you. My guest is Washington Post national technology reporter Craig Timberg. We'll talk more about spyware after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "NSO Group has several kinds of objections. They believe that it's impossible that so many people were potentially surveilled. They argue that - you know, when it comes right down to it, they're kind o"}
{"id": "1022214491", "date": "2021-07-29", "guest": "Craig Timberg", "title": "Leaks Reveal Spyware Meant To Track Criminals Targeted Activists Instead", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Craig Timberg. He covers technology for The Washington Post and specializes in privacy, security and surveillance. He's been investigating how the private Israeli spyware company called NSO Group licensed military-grade spyware called Pegasus to governments that were supposed to use it only for tracking terrorists and criminals. But some governments used it to hack the phones of journalists, human rights activists, business executives and others. So what is the relationship between the Israeli government and Israeli private companies that do espionage and that sell or lease spyware?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "NSO Group has several kinds of objections. They believe that it's impossible that so many people were potentially surveilled. They argue that - you know, when it comes right down to it, they're kind o"}
{"id": "1022214491", "date": "2021-07-29", "guest": "Craig Timberg", "title": "Leaks Reveal Spyware Meant To Track Criminals Targeted Activists Instead", "question_index": 16, "text": "Does the Israeli government have to give approval before a private Israeli company can license spyware to another government?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think we don't really know. A couple of my colleagues looked very carefully at this question about, you know, whether the Israeli government has some sort of access to the data that NSO clients coll"}
{"id": "1022214491", "date": "2021-07-29", "guest": "Craig Timberg", "title": "Leaks Reveal Spyware Meant To Track Criminals Targeted Activists Instead", "question_index": 17, "text": "So are there any national or international laws preventing private companies or governments from misusing spyware?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Israel, like the United States and a number of countries, has what's called export controls. And so when it comes to something like this - it is military-grade spyware - it does have to be approv"}
{"id": "1022214491", "date": "2021-07-29", "guest": "Craig Timberg", "title": "Leaks Reveal Spyware Meant To Track Criminals Targeted Activists Instead", "question_index": 18, "text": "So you, The Washington Post reporters and the larger consortium of journalists investigating this story, along with Amnesty International, were able to identify 37 people whose phones were targeted through this spyware that we've been talking about. Do you know who targeted them, like, which governments, agencies or police units were behind it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Lots of governments have laws on the books about wiretapping and require court approval. You know, I'm not an expert on all of them. But I would be willing to guess that almost all of them need updati"}
{"id": "1022214491", "date": "2021-07-29", "guest": "Craig Timberg", "title": "Leaks Reveal Spyware Meant To Track Criminals Targeted Activists Instead", "question_index": 19, "text": "So without getting too technical, what have you learned about how this spyware penetrates through a phone's defenses?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We don't actually know for sure in any of these cases. We obviously have very strong suspicions. You know, what we had were phone numbers. And from these phone numbers, we were able to identify device"}
{"id": "1022214491", "date": "2021-07-29", "guest": "Craig Timberg", "title": "Leaks Reveal Spyware Meant To Track Criminals Targeted Activists Instead", "question_index": 20, "text": "So you don't even have to, like, click on anything?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The most alarming thing about this thing we've learned is that you can be infected without having any idea that anything unusual has happened."}
{"id": "1022214491", "date": "2021-07-29", "guest": "Craig Timberg", "title": "Leaks Reveal Spyware Meant To Track Criminals Targeted Activists Instead", "question_index": 21, "text": "So who needs to worry about having their phone penetrated? Do Americans need to worry about this? Do our listeners need to worry about this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Exactly. You know, we've all learned over the past decade that, you know, if you get an email from someone saying they're a Nigerian prince and they've left a bunch of gold bullion in your airpl"}
{"id": "1022214491", "date": "2021-07-29", "guest": "Craig Timberg", "title": "Leaks Reveal Spyware Meant To Track Criminals Targeted Activists Instead", "question_index": 22, "text": "Let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Craig Timberg, a national reporter covering technology for The Washington Post. We'll talk more about spyware after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is a slightly complicated answer. I mean, NSO Group says very persistently and in court that Americans' phones can't be surveilled using their technology. And so that means if you've got a, you k"}
{"id": "1022214491", "date": "2021-07-29", "guest": "Craig Timberg", "title": "Leaks Reveal Spyware Meant To Track Criminals Targeted Activists Instead", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Washington Post reporter Craig Timberg. He's been investigating how a private Israeli company called NSO Group licensed military-grade spyware called Pegasus to governments that were supposed to use it only for tracking terrorists and criminals. But some governments used it to hack the phones of journalists, human rights activists, business executives and others. I'm going to change directions a little bit and get to an earlier article you wrote that's seeming very relevant right now. On Tuesday, we heard Capitol Police officers give just incredibly upsetting testimony about what they experienced and how they were attacked on January 6. And you wrote an article about an online forum called thedonald.win that - judging from what you quoted, this forum basically had chats about just about everything that we saw happen in that violent mob. Do you want to talk a little bit about what you found on that forum?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is a slightly complicated answer. I mean, NSO Group says very persistently and in court that Americans' phones can't be surveilled using their technology. And so that means if you've got a, you k"}
{"id": "1022214491", "date": "2021-07-29", "guest": "Craig Timberg", "title": "Leaks Reveal Spyware Meant To Track Criminals Targeted Activists Instead", "question_index": 24, "text": "Let me mention a couple of other things that you reported about what was said on this forum, thedonald.win. There was a debate over whether they should build a guillotine or gallows, and it finally got resolved in favor of gallows, which commenters estimated could be built cheaply for just about $200. And it was actually - there was actually a gallows on the National Mall, you know, to hang - well, the chant was, hang Mike Pence. But, you know, who knows what exactly would have happened with those gallows? There's diagrams that were shared on the site of tunnel systems beneath the Capitol complex and then speculation about how pushing the mob from behind could end in a wall of death that would force police officers to abandon their positions. There was advice on how to attack Capitol Police with flagpoles. Check - that was done. It so predicted what happened. That seemed so shocking at the time. And does it make you wonder, like, why weren't the police and the Capitol Police more prepared? What went wrong?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. This was just startling and troubling stuff. I mean, I've spent most of the last few years of my life looking at troubling stuff on internet forums, and I'm kind of hard to shock at a certain po"}
{"id": "1022214491", "date": "2021-07-29", "guest": "Craig Timberg", "title": "Leaks Reveal Spyware Meant To Track Criminals Targeted Activists Instead", "question_index": 25, "text": "I mean, everybody's wondering that. But you've got these specific details.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It certainly - I mean, I was wondering exactly that."}
{"id": "1022214491", "date": "2021-07-29", "guest": "Craig Timberg", "title": "Leaks Reveal Spyware Meant To Track Criminals Targeted Activists Instead", "question_index": 26, "text": "What is it like for you to live in this really dark space, because you're reporting so frequently on things related to technology that become nightmares?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That stuff was just so chilling to read in the days before and in the immediate aftermath - just how much of that was, as you say, foreshadowed by things that were said on thedonald.win and some other"}
{"id": "1022214491", "date": "2021-07-29", "guest": "Craig Timberg", "title": "Leaks Reveal Spyware Meant To Track Criminals Targeted Activists Instead", "question_index": 27, "text": "Well, Craig Timberg, thank you so much for your reporting. Thank you for being with us on FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, we have bad days. Everyone I know who has covered this stuff has been, you know, personally threatened at least somewhat, some people much more seriously than I have been. And there's just t"}
{"id": "1022214491", "date": "2021-07-29", "guest": "Craig Timberg", "title": "Leaks Reveal Spyware Meant To Track Criminals Targeted Activists Instead", "question_index": 28, "text": "Craig Timberg is a national technology reporter for The Washington Post. After we take a short break, Justin Chang will review the new film \"The Green Knight,\" adapted from a legend about a young adventurer from King Arthur's court. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's been my pleasure. Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "1022783118", "date": "2021-07-30", "guest": "Courtney B Vance", "title": "Acting Is 'Problem Solving,' Says Courtney B. Vance", "question_index": 0, "text": "That's an excerpt from \"Genius: Aretha.\" Courtney B. Vance, welcome to FRESH AIR. It's a terrific performance that you give.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I will trust - yes, sir - in the Lord. Come on, say, I will - I will trust - I'll trust - in the Lord. I will trust. I will trust - yes, I will - in the Lord. How long? 'Til I..."}
{"id": "1022783118", "date": "2021-07-30", "guest": "Courtney B Vance", "title": "Acting Is 'Problem Solving,' Says Courtney B. Vance", "question_index": 1, "text": "It's a great portrayal of a very complicated man. So let's start with his preaching. When you listen to recordings of C.L. Franklin's preaching, what did you hear that you wanted to capture?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1022783118", "date": "2021-07-30", "guest": "Courtney B Vance", "title": "Acting Is 'Problem Solving,' Says Courtney B. Vance", "question_index": 2, "text": "Let's talk about C.L. Franklin's voice, which you had to learn and understand for your portrayal. What did you hear in his voice and in the way he used repetition and just kind of savored words?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, everything. He was a self-made preacher. He, as you characterized in my intro that he was a stepson of a sharecropper. So his stepfather gave him an ultimatum because he was running back and for"}
{"id": "1022783118", "date": "2021-07-30", "guest": "Courtney B Vance", "title": "Acting Is 'Problem Solving,' Says Courtney B. Vance", "question_index": 3, "text": "So in terms of playing complicated people, let's move on to Johnnie Cochran", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm churched. So I - most pastors during that time, they did that. So that repetition was and is that Black tradition of call and response. And it ties everyone together. It ties the choir behind him "}
{"id": "1022783118", "date": "2021-07-30", "guest": "Courtney B Vance", "title": "Acting Is 'Problem Solving,' Says Courtney B. Vance", "question_index": 4, "text": ", who you portrayed in the \"American Crime Story\" series, \"The People V. O.J. Simpson.\" And Cochran, of course, was the star lawyer on O.J.'s defense team. You've said you didn't watch a lot of videos of the trial, and you felt you didn't need to. Why did you feel you didn't need to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm churched. So I - most pastors during that time, they did that. So that repetition was and is that Black tradition of call and response. And it ties everyone together. It ties the choir behind him "}
{"id": "1022783118", "date": "2021-07-30", "guest": "Courtney B Vance", "title": "Acting Is 'Problem Solving,' Says Courtney B. Vance", "question_index": 5, "text": "Well, let's hear a clip of you portraying Johnnie Cochran. And this is part of your closing argument. So Mark Fuhrman was the LAPD officer who found the bloody gloves near the crime scene while he was investigating the murder of O.J.'s ex-wife, Nicole Simpson, and her friend, Ron Goldman. During the course of the trial, the defense presented tapes of Fuhrman making racist remarks - not only making racist remarks, but kind of bragging about being racist. And Fuhrman's racism became a key part of the defense strategy. So let's hear a scene in which you're making - you as Johnnie Cochran are making the final argument for the defense.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I lived the trial, the year-long drama that we all lived through, those who were of age who remember that nightmare. So I was intimidated to go back and to portray a person that everybody knows and ha"}
{"id": "1022783118", "date": "2021-07-30", "guest": "Courtney B Vance", "title": "Acting Is 'Problem Solving,' Says Courtney B. Vance", "question_index": 6, "text": "Nicely done", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Johnnie Cochran) But don't be fooled. This isn't just one officer. Mark Fuhrman represents the entire LAPD. Now, you may not know this, but you are empowered. Your decision has a major implication"}
{"id": "1022783118", "date": "2021-07-30", "guest": "Courtney B Vance", "title": "Acting Is 'Problem Solving,' Says Courtney B. Vance", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Johnnie Cochran) But don't be fooled. This isn't just one officer. Mark Fuhrman represents the entire LAPD. Now, you may not know this, but you are empowered. Your decision has a major implication"}
{"id": "1022783118", "date": "2021-07-30", "guest": "Courtney B Vance", "title": "Acting Is 'Problem Solving,' Says Courtney B. Vance", "question_index": 8, "text": "That's my guest, Courtney B. Vance, as Johnnie Cochran in a scene from the \"American Crime Story\" series, \"The People Vs. O.J. Simpson.\" Did you ever wonder if Johnnie Cochran thought that O.J. actually did it but he was going to give him the best defense he could possibly come up with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wow. Wow."}
{"id": "1022783118", "date": "2021-07-30", "guest": "Courtney B Vance", "title": "Acting Is 'Problem Solving,' Says Courtney B. Vance", "question_index": 9, "text": "So let's talk about growing up in Detroit. You've said that your family moved to a lower-middle-class, predominantly white neighborhood when you were a child. And then you got there, and then the white people moved out. What are some of your memories of that period and what it was like to be a Black family moving into a white neighborhood?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview from earlier this year with actor Courtney B. Vance. He's been nominated for a guest actor Emmy for his work in the HBO series \"Lovecraft Country"}
{"id": "1022783118", "date": "2021-07-30", "guest": "Courtney B Vance", "title": "Acting Is 'Problem Solving,' Says Courtney B. Vance", "question_index": 10, "text": "So you went on to Yale - studied at the Yale School of Drama.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was a very heady time. I was just starting to become, quote, unquote, \"aware.\" I was 9 the summer of Mayor Coleman Young, first Black African American mayor of Detroit, you know, Black power. Aga"}
{"id": "1022783118", "date": "2021-07-30", "guest": "Courtney B Vance", "title": "Acting Is 'Problem Solving,' Says Courtney B. Vance", "question_index": 11, "text": "Went to Harvard first, OK. So you were cast in the Yale Repertory Theatre production, which was the world premiere of August Wilson's play \"Fences.\" And James Earl Jones played your father. I mean, that's a pretty big deal for a young actor who only recently figured out that he even wanted to act. Tell us a little bit about what you learned from James Earl Jones.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Went to Harvard, then went to Yale."}
{"id": "1022783118", "date": "2021-07-30", "guest": "Courtney B Vance", "title": "Acting Is 'Problem Solving,' Says Courtney B. Vance", "question_index": 12, "text": "You got so much out of the Yale School of Drama. It led you to Lloyd Richards. It led you to \"Fences.\" And it's also where you met your wife, Angela Bassett. You and Angela Bassett have twins. Being a parent must have been so different from your parents' parenting - different generation. They were struggling, you know, financially some of the time. And once you and Angela Bassett both established careers, you weren't struggling financially.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was completely in awe. I mean, as you said, I don't know upstage from downstage. I knew nothing. It was our second year in drama school. And so I was shocked. I read the play up in the library. I re"}
{"id": "1022783118", "date": "2021-07-30", "guest": "Courtney B Vance", "title": "Acting Is 'Problem Solving,' Says Courtney B. Vance", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well, that's a pretty big deal", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, our parents instilled in us some basic things that we carry on. So, as I said, the message is more important than the money. We are really about discipline and really about education a"}
{"id": "1022783118", "date": "2021-07-30", "guest": "Courtney B Vance", "title": "Acting Is 'Problem Solving,' Says Courtney B. Vance", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, our parents instilled in us some basic things that we carry on. So, as I said, the message is more important than the money. We are really about discipline and really about education a"}
{"id": "1022783118", "date": "2021-07-30", "guest": "Courtney B Vance", "title": "Acting Is 'Problem Solving,' Says Courtney B. Vance", "question_index": 15, "text": "Courtney B. Vance, it's really been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. It was a huge deal."}
{"id": "1022788981", "date": "2021-07-30", "guest": "Bob Moses", "title": "Listen Back To A 1993 Interview With The Late Civil Rights Pioneer Bob Moses", "question_index": 0, "text": "How much of an issue was voting when you started in Mississippi? Was there already a popular movement to get...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Bob Moses and others faced brutal violence, relentless intimidation and death threats. Three of the young activists - Michael Schwerner, James Chaney and Andrew Goodman - were murdered by white racist"}
{"id": "1022788981", "date": "2021-07-30", "guest": "Bob Moses", "title": "Listen Back To A 1993 Interview With The Late Civil Rights Pioneer Bob Moses", "question_index": 1, "text": "What was the Supreme Court decision that you referred to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There wasn't, no. What had happened in Mississippi through the '50s was a really strong repression. Mississippi was sort of South Africa. And following the Supreme Court decision, the government of th"}
{"id": "1022788981", "date": "2021-07-30", "guest": "Bob Moses", "title": "Listen Back To A 1993 Interview With The Late Civil Rights Pioneer Bob Moses", "question_index": 2, "text": "So you were operating in a climate of repression and intimidation and violence.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "1954, the Supreme Court decision around school desegregation. So that - you see; Mississippi just decided, well, they're not going to integrate the schools here. And the one - the people who might try"}
{"id": "1022788981", "date": "2021-07-30", "guest": "Bob Moses", "title": "Listen Back To A 1993 Interview With The Late Civil Rights Pioneer Bob Moses", "question_index": 3, "text": "What would you use - what would you do to convince people that it was worth the risk to try to register?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Right."}
{"id": "1022788981", "date": "2021-07-30", "guest": "Bob Moses", "title": "Listen Back To A 1993 Interview With The Late Civil Rights Pioneer Bob Moses", "question_index": 4, "text": "When you accompanied people to register to vote and you got into the registrar's office, what were the typical obstacles that you'd face?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think people's backs were up against the wall. So there was a consensus that we all ought to try to register. And then not that we all - well, that it should be done. And then the question was"}
{"id": "1022788981", "date": "2021-07-30", "guest": "Bob Moses", "title": "Listen Back To A 1993 Interview With The Late Civil Rights Pioneer Bob Moses", "question_index": 5, "text": "What would you do to make it clear that you couldn't be intimidated, and especially when people are trying to intimidate others through...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the delaying tactics. So they would take one person at a time. And, you know, they would just drag it out. And then the people had to fill out some section of the Constitution and interpret it. "}
{"id": "1022788981", "date": "2021-07-30", "guest": "Bob Moses", "title": "Listen Back To A 1993 Interview With The Late Civil Rights Pioneer Bob Moses", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yeah. Right. Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, mostly, we just kept coming back."}
{"id": "1022788981", "date": "2021-07-30", "guest": "Bob Moses", "title": "Listen Back To A 1993 Interview With The Late Civil Rights Pioneer Bob Moses", "question_index": 7, "text": "You were more educated, I'm sure, than the authorities who were standing in your way in Mississippi. Did you ever use that as a credential to intimidate them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, that - I mean, I guess that was the bottom line, that is that, OK, whatever you do. You know, we - you knock us down. And we get back up. And we come back. So that was basically it."}
{"id": "1022788981", "date": "2021-07-30", "guest": "Bob Moses", "title": "Listen Back To A 1993 Interview With The Late Civil Rights Pioneer Bob Moses", "question_index": 8, "text": "That's the kind of thing that's sometimes interpreted as a sign of weakness.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't do a lot of talking, of course. And this is one of the issues, you know, because the - one of the first things is to let you know that you are not to talk, right? And I didn't really push tha"}
{"id": "1022788981", "date": "2021-07-30", "guest": "Bob Moses", "title": "Listen Back To A 1993 Interview With The Late Civil Rights Pioneer Bob Moses", "question_index": 9, "text": "But you said that the thing was not to talk. Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. It depends, I guess. There's a way of sort of projecting how you feel in terms of confidence in just stillness, you know, so that you're not rattled."}
{"id": "1022788981", "date": "2021-07-30", "guest": "Bob Moses", "title": "Listen Back To A 1993 Interview With The Late Civil Rights Pioneer Bob Moses", "question_index": 10, "text": "Oh, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they - because, the talking - the first thing about talking is whether you're going to say, sir."}
{"id": "1022788981", "date": "2021-07-30", "guest": "Bob Moses", "title": "Listen Back To A 1993 Interview With The Late Civil Rights Pioneer Bob Moses", "question_index": 11, "text": "Were there tremendous acts of courage that you witnessed in Mississippi?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So that's the first line of the battle. So as soon as you open your mouth, then they're going to want to say, you know, sir, you know? What did you say? Did you - you know, they want you to say sir to"}
{"id": "1022788981", "date": "2021-07-30", "guest": "Bob Moses", "title": "Listen Back To A 1993 Interview With The Late Civil Rights Pioneer Bob Moses", "question_index": 12, "text": "When people were murdered in Mississippi, people in the civil rights movement from Mississippi or people from outside who'd come down to work there like Schwerner, Chaney and Goodman, was it a personal crisis for you, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think there were a lot of acts of courage. And some of them, you know, were small in one sense. There were a group of ladies when we were in jail in McComb who took it upon themselves to deliv"}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The musicals \"Sunday In The Park With George,\" \"Into The Woods\" and \"Passion\" are usually called Stephen Sondheim musicals. And, of course, Sondheim is widely acknowledged as the most innovative and brilliant Broadway composer and lyricist of our time. But there's someone else who is essential in the creation of those three shows. And he is my guest, James Lapine. He wrote the books for each of those musicals and directed the original Broadway productions. \"Sunday In The Park With George\" won a Pulitzer Prize for drama. Lapine won a Tony for the book of \"Into The Woods.\" Lapine also co-wrote the book with William Finn for \"Falsettos.\" The book of a musical is like a libretto. It's the part that's spoken, not sung. But some of Sondheim's songs were inspired by or borrowed from lines written by Lapine for the show's books. Now Lapine has written a book book, the kind that you read. It's called \"Putting It Together: How Stephen Sondheim And I Created 'Sunday In The Park With George.'\" It's a fascinating behind-the-scenes account featuring Lapine's reminiscences and his interviews with many people who worked on the show, including Sondheim, the show's stars, Bernadette Peters and Mandy Patinkin, as well as other cast members, producers, orchestrators, set designers and more. James Lapine, welcome to FRESH AIR. I love the shows that you did with Sondheim, and it is just a pleasure to have you on the show.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 1, "text": "\"Sunday In The Park\" is a work of art about a work of art. For people unfamiliar with the show, just describe the premise.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here."}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 2, "text": "The initial idea for the show was sparked by you bringing in some images to look at with Sondheim, which strikes me as a very strange way to start a musical...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was inspired by a painting by Georges Seurat in 1884 to 1886, that he - two years it took for him to paint \"A Sunday Afternoon On The Island Of La Grande Jatte.\" And it employed his methodolo"}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 3, "text": "...To look at pictures. But you used to be a graphic designer and did graphic design and posters for the Yale School of - well, for Yale Repertory Theatre, I should say. So - and one of the images you brought in was a postcard of the painting that inspired the show. So you put the postcard down. You and Sondheim gazed at this postcard of the painting by Seurat. And how did that lead to \"Sunday In The Park\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was inspired by a painting by Georges Seurat in 1884 to 1886, that he - two years it took for him to paint \"A Sunday Afternoon On The Island Of La Grande Jatte.\" And it employed his methodolo"}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 4, "text": "So you realize that the character missing in this painting was the artist himself, and he became the main character in the show, along with his muse and model, the character played by Bernadette Peters. So what did you want to say about artists and what it's like to be an artist's muse or model or mistress, girlfriend? - mistress the language of then.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "? And I don't know. Somehow, I blurted out, well, there's one person missing. And he said, who? And I said, the artist. And somehow, that just sparked an idea that this could somehow be a theatrical v"}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 5, "text": "I think it was your suggestion that there needed to be an opening song. The show needed to open with a song. And that song is \"Sunday In The Park.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have to say, when we look back, we didn't really talk a lot about theme. We talked a lot about story and a lot about where and how music could engage in the storytelling. And Sondheim took the idea "}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 6, "text": "It's interesting that the opening song is from the point of view of the Bernadette Peters character, the model who is in the sun, very hot, very uncomfortable in modeling for the genius painter", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. That was - excuse me - that was Steve's suggestion. I didn't - when I initially - I initially went off after looking at the image with him and came back maybe a week later with six pages that I"}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 7, "text": "Georges Seurat. But in the meantime, she's just kind of, like, suffering and bearing it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. That was - excuse me - that was Steve's suggestion. I didn't - when I initially - I initially went off after looking at the image with him and came back maybe a week later with six pages that I"}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 8, "text": "So why don't we hear \"Sunday In The Park,\" the opening song from \"Sunday In The Park With George\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think, first of all, he was - he may have been a genius, and she may have known that at the time, but the one thing Seurat never was a success. He never actually even sold a painting in his li"}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 9, "text": "That's the opening song from \"Sunday In The Park With George,\" music and lyrics by Stephen Sondheim, and the book for the show written by my guest, James Lapine, who also directed the show. And now he has a new book called \"Putting It Together: How Stephen Sondheim And I Created 'Sunday In The Park With George.'\" So in what you had written - correct me if I'm wrong here - You had written the words like for her character, a dribble of sweat. And Sondheim said, no, no, no, I can't use dribble. And he changed it to trickle. So tell me what you think of that. What went through your mind when he said, not dribble, trickle?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Dot, singing) Artists are bizarre, fixed, cold. That's you, George. You're bizarre, fixed, cold. I like that in a man - fixed, cold. God, it's hot out here. Well, there are worse things than stari"}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 10, "text": "It's interesting that he saw the characters as living in your head as opposed to in his head.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I had only done one musical prior to this. In fact, I was fairly new to the theater in general, having really come to it quite late in my 20s. And I was just fascinated working with him at e"}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 11, "text": "Or maybe eventually they lived in his head, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, well, I think..."}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 12, "text": "OK. Let's take a break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is James Lapine. His new book is called \"Putting It Together: How Stephen Sondheim And I Created 'Sunday In The Park With George.'\" And Sondheim and Lapine also collaborated on \"Into The Woods\" and \"Passion.\" Lapine wrote the books for those, as well as \"Sunday In The Park With George.\" And he directed all three original Broadway productions. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, exactly. I think they did. But, you know, Steve is someone who comes off of the libretto, the book of a show. And, you know, if you look at some of his other shows, some of them were originals. "}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with James Lapine. He wrote the book and directed the original Broadway productions of three Stephen Sondheim musicals - \"Sunday In The Park With George,\" \"Into The Woods\" and \"Passion.\" Now Lapine's written a new book about their collaboration on \"Sunday In The Park.\" It's called \"Putting It Together: How Stephen Sondheim And I Created 'Sunday In The Park With George.'\" As you've said, Sondheim is a very slow writer when it comes to writing songs. Did you worry - once it was a sure thing that you were going to do this show together, did you worry that he wouldn't finish in time? And are there things you would try to do to kind of nudge him to work a little faster?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, exactly. I think they did. But, you know, Steve is someone who comes off of the libretto, the book of a show. And, you know, if you look at some of his other shows, some of them were originals. "}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 14, "text": "Which were those songs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, he used to say to me some - I don't remember when - one day he said to me, look, James, do you want a Tuesday or do you want it good? And of course, I think I said I want a Tuesday and I wan"}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 15, "text": "And I should explain, second-act George is the great-grandson of Georges Seurat, and second-act George, the great-grandson, is a performance artist. So he's doing this kind of, like, light show type of art. And it's, like, a whole different kind of art than anything that existed in Georges Seurat's time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...We had this conversation"}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 16, "text": "So let's hear \"Lesson #8\" from \"Sunday In The Park With George.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he was - actually, I like to think of him as a sculptor as well as a performance artist in a way. And he was sculpting with light. And that was, of course, what Seurat was trying to do in painti"}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 17, "text": "That's \"Lesson #8\" from the musical \"Sunday In The Park With George,\" with the music and lyrics by Stephen Sondheim and the book by my guest, James Lapine, who also directed the original Broadway production. He's written a new book called \"Putting It Together: How Stephen Sondheim And I Created 'Sunday In The Park With George.'\" We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As George, singing) Charles has a book. Charles shows them his crayons. Marie has the ball of Charles. Good for Marie. Charles misses his ball. (As George, singing) George misses Marie. George misses"}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with James Lapine. He wrote the new book \"Putting It Together: How Stephen Sondheim And I Created 'Sunday In The Park With George.'\" Lapine wrote the book for \"Sunday In The Park With George.\" He also wrote the book for two other Stephen Sondheim musicals, \"Into The Woods\" and \"Passion.\" He directed all three original Broadway productions. And he also wrote the adaptation of the film version of \"Into The Woods.\" You know, you write that Sondheim was in a bad place when you first met because \"Merrily We Roll Along\" had just closed after a short run. It didn't get great reviews. And he was even thinking about leaving theater because he thought theater was just too cruel. I'm wondering what it was like for you to meet him when he was feeling so discouraged. And you were just starting your career in theater.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As George, singing) Charles has a book. Charles shows them his crayons. Marie has the ball of Charles. Good for Marie. Charles misses his ball. (As George, singing) George misses Marie. George misses"}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 19, "text": "Yeah. And he probably wouldn't know how to do that. I mean, he writes what he writes, and it's brilliant.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 20, "text": "Wait. I'm going to take that back. That - he probably could do that because in so many of his shows, there are, like, songs in the manner of Harold Arlen or Gershwin or Berlin. Like, he knows how to write in different voices and how to incorporate that in his shows. And it brings a certain, like, period meeting. Or it's just an interesting tribute. Or - you know, so he probably could do that. But I'm sure he wouldn't.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly, because..."}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 21, "text": "Oh, really? Do you think of that as, like, an intentionally commercial show?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he sort of did, and it was called \"Into The Woods.\" I mean..."}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 22, "text": "Oh, and it's the only Sondheim show that you'd go, hey, bring the kids.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. But as we were working on it, he said, you know, this - I don't remember his exact words. But he did realize as he was writing it that it had commercial value - let's put it that way - because we "}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 23, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just to the first act, yeah."}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 24, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think - I don't know. It was funny because we - that collaboration was incredibly different than the first one. And the same with \"Passion\" - it was different than the other two. So they were all ve"}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 25, "text": "Can you think of a revelation that came to you from something Sondheim said that you may not have realized or thought of without him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know? And I was fascinated with fairy tales. And I guess when I say commercial, I think what we're really saying is very accessible, you know, a show that would be very accessible to people in "}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 26, "text": "OK. So that's really interesting. Can you think of one of Sondheim's songs that you and he agreed should be an emotion or a thematic point that was expressed in the show but would sound too corny or sentimental or on the nose if it was actually spoken as opposed to sung?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think what I learned most from him is the marriage of music to spoken word. And the one maybe major thing he said to me was, let me take care of theme. I can put things in a song that no one will bl"}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 27, "text": "And part of what this song is about is how difficult it is to create a work of art, but when you've created it, there's something there that had never been there before. You created something that didn't exist before. And if you made that in a speech, it might sound like a little much,", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would say \"Finishing The Hat\" is a perfect example of that, of a song that comes at a perfect place in the act, that lets an audience see this kind of cold, distant character and allows us to unders"}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 28, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Corny, corny city."}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 29, "text": "OK. Well, let's hear it. So this is from \"Sunday In The Park With George.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, also, there's another level to that song, which is him examining what he's given up to make something, you know, what the choices are, what you do with your time and your passion and how you hav"}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 30, "text": "That's a song from \"Sunday In The Park With George.\" And my guest, James Lapine, wrote the book and directed the original Broadway production of the musical - and the music and lyrics, of course, by Stephen Sondheim. And Lapine has written a new book called \"Putting It Together: How Stephen Sondheim And I Created 'Sunday In The Park With George.'\" We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As George, singing) Finishing the hat how you have to finish the hat, how you watch the rest of the world from a window while you finish the hat. Mapping out a sky, what you feel like planning a sky "}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 31, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with James Lapine. He collaborated with Stephen Sondheim on three musicals - \"Sunday In The Park With George,\" \"Into The Woods\" and \"Passion.\" Sondheim wrote the music and lyrics. Lapine wrote the book for each of those musicals and directed the original Broadway productions. Now Lapine has written a book that's part memoir, part interviews with people who worked on the original production of \"Sunday In The Park With George.\" And it's called \"Putting It Together: How Stephen Sondheim And I Created 'Sunday In The Park With George.'\" I want to talk with you a little bit about \"Into The Woods,\" another really, like, beloved show. I think the idea was yours to do a musical based on fairy tales, and it's a kind of mash-up of several fairy tales. Can you talk about the genesis of the idea?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "INTO THE WOODS\")"}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 32, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "you can make this an opening number. And of course, in retrospect, I realize that's the exact way to get Sondheim to do something..."}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 33, "text": "Yeah. So this is the prologue to \"Into The Woods.\" And in the Broadway production, there is a narrator, too, kind of stitching it together.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And lo and behold, he musicalized the whole thing, and we were off to the races."}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 34, "text": "So let's hear some of the prologue from \"Into The Woods.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- that helped the development of that show a lot."}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 35, "text": "That's an excerpt of the prologue from \"Into The Woods.\" And my guest, James Lapine, wrote the book for the musical and directed the original Broadway production. He also adapted the book for the film version of it. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Jack's Mother, singing) I wish my son..."}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 36, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with James Lapine. He wrote the book for three musicals with music and lyrics by Stephen Sondheim - \"Sunday In The Park With George,\" \"Into The Woods\" and \"Passion.\" And now Lapine has written a new book about working with Sondheim on \"Sunday In The Park,\" and it's called \"Putting It Together.\" And now I want to ask you about \"Passion.\" And \"Passion\" is a musical that is adapted from a movie and from the book the movie is based on. And to give us the shortest version, it's about a soldier who's having a passionate affair with a beautiful woman who's sent to a remote outpost where the cousin of the commander is a very sickly - I mean, she's very ill - woman who is considered very ugly by the other soldiers there. And she basically lives in books. She reads to live. And by the end, the main character, the soldier, gets sick, too. And they actually develop a loving relationship. She's fallen in love with him much earlier, and he's done everything in his power to reject her earlier in the musical. So what is - can you choose a song from that that you feel really connected to - in terms of contributing to it, where you contributed some lines or it was based on a monologue that you wrote?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "SUNDAY IN THE PARK - PASSAGES\")"}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 37, "text": "So let's say hear \"Loving You\" from the musical \"Passion.\" And this is Donna Murphy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there's a song that was the last one that came in - again, another kind of beautiful short song that Steve wrote called \"Loving You.\" And we were having a horrible time in previews. The audience"}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 38, "text": "That was Donna Murphy singing \"Loving You\" from the musical \"Passion\" with music and lyrics by Stephen Sondheim. The book for the show was written by my guest, James Lapine, who has a new book that's kind of a memoir and interviews with people about working with Sondheim on \"Sunday In The Park With George,\" for which Lapine also wrote the book and directed the original Broadway production. And that book is called \"Putting It Together.\" The musical \"Passion\" has so much to do about the world of the sick compared to the world of the well, and the world of those who are considered ugly compared to the world of those who are considered beautiful. Is that a theme that you related to either of those about being sickly or being considered, you know, not attractive?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Fosca, singing) Loving you is not a choice. It's who I am. Loving you is not a choice and not much reason to rejoice, but it gives me purpose, gives me voice to say to the world this is why I live"}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 39, "text": "Are you and Sondheim still good friends?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then the show starts, and about 30 minutes in, they're squirming in their seats. And, you know, 40 minutes in, they're trying to poke their wives and get the hell out of there. But it asks a lot o"}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 40, "text": "I'm glad to hear that", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God, yeah. I consider him one of my absolute closest friends."}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 41, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God, yeah. I consider him one of my absolute closest friends."}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 42, "text": "How did you decide not to collaborate anymore?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm very lucky. And, I mean, when you go through what we went through on those three shows, you know, you are joined at the hip for life."}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 43, "text": "Why don't we end with a song? Is there a song from any of the shows that you worked on with Sondheim that you feel just kind of speaks to the moment we're in now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I don't know why we didn't do more work together. We certainly tried. I had projects that I was interested in doing. And he had projects that he was interested in doing. And neither gelled for the o"}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 44, "text": "Well, let's end with that. James Lapine, it's been such a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much. And thank you for your work.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I definitely think the song \"No One Is Alone\" from \"Into the Woods\" is one that we should all be listening to."}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 45, "text": "It's been a pleasure, James Lapine. Thank you. James Lapine's new book is called \"Putting It Together: How Stephen Sondheim And I Created 'Sunday In The Park With George.'\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my gosh. And thank you for yours. And thanks for taking the time to talk to me."}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 46, "text": "UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character, singing) Mother cannot guide you. Now you're on your own, only me beside you. Still, you're not alone. No one is alone, truly. No one is alone. Sometimes people leave you halfway through the wood. Others may deceive you. You decide what's good. You decide alone. But no one is alone. I wish. I know.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my gosh. And thank you for yours. And thanks for taking the time to talk to me."}
{"id": "1024191839", "date": "2021-08-03", "guest": "James Lapine", "title": "Finishing 'Sunday In The Park': Behind-The-Scenes Stories Of Working With Sondheim", "question_index": 47, "text": "Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, as the 20th anniversary of 9/11 approaches, we speak with Peter Bergen, one of the world's foremost authorities on al-Qaida. He has a new biography of Osama bin Laden. Bergen says he wanted to understand why bin Laden created an organization dedicated to mass murder. I hope you'll join us. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley, Kayla Lattimore and Joel Wolfram. Our producer of digital media is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my gosh. And thank you for yours. And thanks for taking the time to talk to me."}
{"id": "1025060144", "date": "2021-08-06", "guest": "Ron Popeil", "title": "Remembering Inventor And TV Pitchman Ron Popeil", "question_index": 0, "text": "Like, a cheese grater or something.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Most of the products were housewares-type products, like food choppers and slicers and things of that nature. And I would normally say - if I was using my food slicer, I would say that the food slicer"}
{"id": "1025060144", "date": "2021-08-06", "guest": "Ron Popeil", "title": "Remembering Inventor And TV Pitchman Ron Popeil", "question_index": 1, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1025060144", "date": "2021-08-06", "guest": "Ron Popeil", "title": "Remembering Inventor And TV Pitchman Ron Popeil", "question_index": 2, "text": "OK. Now, the second ad you did on TV was for the Chop-O-Matic. And, in fact, why don't we hear the ad?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One of those old knuckle busters - it was a stand-up kind of product - versus using my particular product that accomplished the same thing very easily, easy to clean. And the price was right."}
{"id": "1025060144", "date": "2021-08-06", "guest": "Ron Popeil", "title": "Remembering Inventor And TV Pitchman Ron Popeil", "question_index": 3, "text": "Now, I have to say, your voice in that ad almost sounds like a circus barker.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If you want to chop a few celery stocks - you know, for soup, salad or stuffing - instead of wasting time cutting the celery with a knife like you usually would, just place your celery under the chopp"}
{"id": "1025060144", "date": "2021-08-06", "guest": "Ron Popeil", "title": "Remembering Inventor And TV Pitchman Ron Popeil", "question_index": 4, "text": "There's a certain kind of melodious - you know, the way you're asking questions and then answering them. Sounds like you're inviting people into the tent or something.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1025060144", "date": "2021-08-06", "guest": "Ron Popeil", "title": "Remembering Inventor And TV Pitchman Ron Popeil", "question_index": 5, "text": "What's the most successful TV ad you've ever done?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when, in fact, you are demonstrating product, there's so much you have to say. And people are in a hurry. Don't forget, people who stopped to buy my product didn't come to see me, to buy the pro"}
{"id": "1025060144", "date": "2021-08-06", "guest": "Ron Popeil", "title": "Remembering Inventor And TV Pitchman Ron Popeil", "question_index": 6, "text": "OK. Now, let's leave out the infomercials. What's the most successful?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would think it's misleading because of the medium. And that's because of the infomercial business."}
{"id": "1025060144", "date": "2021-08-06", "guest": "Ron Popeil", "title": "Remembering Inventor And TV Pitchman Ron Popeil", "question_index": 7, "text": "Units, units.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Then I would have to think that you've got to talk about dollars or units..."}
{"id": "1025060144", "date": "2021-08-06", "guest": "Ron Popeil", "title": "Remembering Inventor And TV Pitchman Ron Popeil", "question_index": 8, "text": "You got me there. Units.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Because if you go back 40 years, then..."}
{"id": "1025060144", "date": "2021-08-06", "guest": "Ron Popeil", "title": "Remembering Inventor And TV Pitchman Ron Popeil", "question_index": 9, "text": "Now, this is part of your philosophy - right? - that every product needs to be the solution to a problem.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Units. Units, I would say Veg-O-Matic, then Mr. Microphone, then the smokeless ashtray, then the Ronco clean air machine. Those items were big. Buttoneer was a giant item as well. The problem with but"}
{"id": "1025060144", "date": "2021-08-06", "guest": "Ron Popeil", "title": "Remembering Inventor And TV Pitchman Ron Popeil", "question_index": 10, "text": "One of your inventions.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's in most cases. There was one exception in my life, and that was Mr. Microphone."}
{"id": "1025060144", "date": "2021-08-06", "guest": "Ron Popeil", "title": "Remembering Inventor And TV Pitchman Ron Popeil", "question_index": 11, "text": "Actually, I want to pause here and play a Mr. Microphone ad.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1025060144", "date": "2021-08-06", "guest": "Ron Popeil", "title": "Remembering Inventor And TV Pitchman Ron Popeil", "question_index": 12, "text": "Now, that hey, good-looking - were you being funny or serious there? Did you really expect people would go cruising along with their Mr. Microphone, picking up chicks?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Oh, what fun it is to ride a one-horse open sleigh (scatting). There are no attaching wires, so you're free to move around. Broadcast over any FM car radio. Hey, good-looking. We'll be back "}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Cecily Strong, is nominated for an Emmy for the second year in a row for her work on \"Saturday Night Live.\" She also stars in the new series \"Schmigadoon!,\" which is a very smart, funny and loving satire of musicals from the '40s and '50s. Strong joined \"SNL\" as a featured player in 2012. In her second season, she co-anchored Weekend Update with Seth Meyers and then Colin Jost. But she left the desk, preferring to do sketch comedy, which she's great at. Her characters have included Fox News host Judge Jeanine Pirro, Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer, Melania Trump and the girl you wish you hadn't started a conversation with at a party. Strong also has a new book that will be published tomorrow called \"This Will All Be Over Soon.\" It's a journal of her first year of the pandemic, dealing with anxiety and depression. Let's start with \"Schmigadoon!,\" which is filled with references to classic musicals, like \"Oklahoma!,\" \"Carousel,\" \"The Music Man,\" \"The Sound of Music\" and, of course, \"Brigadoon.\" It's streaming on Apple TV+. Cecily Strong and Keegan-Michael Key star as a couple of trying to reinvigorate their relationship by going on a hike designed for couples who need to reconnect. They get lost in the woods, cross over a bridge and suddenly find themselves on what looks like a backlot movie set of a small town in the early 20th century - a town called Schmigadoon. The women are wearing long, colorful prairie dresses with big petticoats. The men are dressed like they're in old-fashioned barbershop quartets. The townspeople are singing and dancing as if they're in an old musical. Cecily Strong's character loves musicals and is initially charmed. Keegan-Michael Key's character hates musicals and is desperate to leave. But they both soon realize they're trapped in Schmigadoon, where life is a musical. A leprechaun has explained to the couple - in song - that they can't leave Schmigadoon until they find true love, which means the depth of their love is about to be tested. In this scene, the couple keeps trying to cross the bridge and escape Schmigadoon while bickering about their relationship.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 1, "text": "Cecily Strong, welcome to FRESH AIR. I love the show so much. It's brought me such pleasure at a time when I think we all need some pleasure. So how much do you love musicals?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As characters, singing) Just 'cause you feuded don't mean that you're concluded."}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 2, "text": "And he's not just a Broadway producer. He's, like, a really big Broadway producer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "enjoys it and it has joy from it. I'm also - love the show and get a lot of joy from it. I've always loved musicals. I mean, I think it's certainly been a part of my life since I was little. You know,"}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 3, "text": "Like, among the shows he did was terrific revivals of \"Music Man,\" which is, of course, referenced", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Thank you."}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 4, "text": "in \"Schmigadoon!\" and also a terrific revival of \"How To Succeed In Business,\" a Sondheim tribute. So you must have had this idea early on that being in shows was something real people did. I mean, when I was growing up in Brooklyn, I thought people in movies and on Broadway were, like, from another planet. Like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Thank you."}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 5, "text": "...They didn't connect to the world I lived in. They just performed, you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Thank you."}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yeah, yeah. When you were going to see musicals that your uncle produced...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. And I think you're probably not wrong. It feels like a little bit of other-planet behavior - all of us. Yeah. I guess I knew it as a job. And I always wanted to be an actor since I was little. I"}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 7, "text": "...Did you get to meet the actors? Did you get to go backstage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 8, "text": "So your character in \"Schmigadoon!\" is initially really charmed by the idea that they're, like, living in a world of a musical. And the first morning that you're there, you're having breakfast on the porch. And you're being, you know, waited on by a - you know, a very lovely, very young", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did - and I mean, not always. I saw \"Guys And Dolls.\" I saw \"Once Upon A Mattress,\" which I absolutely loved and really wanted to do. But I certainly - I remember getting to go backstage after \"Secr"}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 9, "text": "waitress. And she recommends the corn puddin'. And you go like, whoa, what's that? And it's like, you don't know what corn puddin' is? And so I want to play that scene 'cause it'll give a sense of how people just kind of break out into song around you and how you sometimes just chime right in. And so we'll hear Cecily Strong doing a little solo in part of this as Keegan-Michael Key objects...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did - and I mean, not always. I saw \"Guys And Dolls.\" I saw \"Once Upon A Mattress,\" which I absolutely loved and really wanted to do. But I certainly - I remember getting to go backstage after \"Secr"}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 10, "text": "...To her participation. So here's another scene from \"Schmigadoon!\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did - and I mean, not always. I saw \"Guys And Dolls.\" I saw \"Once Upon A Mattress,\" which I absolutely loved and really wanted to do. But I certainly - I remember getting to go backstage after \"Secr"}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 11, "text": "That was another scene from \"Schmigadoon!,\" which stars my guest, Cecily Strong, and Keegan-Michael Key. God, this whole musical is so much fun. It's such a contrast for me seeing the joy in \"Schmigadoon!\" because everyone in it seems to be enjoying being in it so much. And I was enjoying watching it so much. And the contrast between that and the depression and anxiety you describe in your memoir, which - a lot of your memoir is about living through the pandemic, like, the first almost year of the pandemic. And you shot \"Schmigadoon!\" during the pandemic. What was it like for you to go from this heightened sense of anxiety and depression to flying to - was it Vancouver?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Melissa Gimble) OK. Well, that one's on you."}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 12, "text": "...To shoot and be in these, like, exuberant, like, joyful production scenes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 13, "text": "Had you been vaccinated when you shot the series?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I said no, actually, at first to going to Vancouver and shooting because I was - I really was afraid, you know? And then it took a while to really understand, here's all of the things we're going to p"}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Cecily Strong, and she stars in the new series \"Schmigadoon!,\" which is a loving satire of classic musicals from the '40s and '50s. Her new memoir, \"This Will All Be Over Soon,\" will be published tomorrow. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No. Because, I mean, we shot last fall, so that wasn't even - I didn't even know we'd get to be vaccinated. So we just were relying on testing."}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Cecily Strong. She's nominated for an Emmy for her work on \"Saturday Night Live.\" She has a new memoir called \"This Will All Be Over Soon,\" and she stars in the new series \"Schmigadoon!,\" a satire of classic musicals from the '40s and '50s. I know from your new memoir that when \"Saturday Night Live\" did some episodes with everybody at home, that you were - you didn't want to participate at first, and you didn't do one or two of the shows because you just didn't feel ready to perform, I mean, because you really were in a serious state of depression and anxiety. What did it feel like to be honest and say, I'm not ready, I can't do it yet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No. Because, I mean, we shot last fall, so that wasn't even - I didn't even know we'd get to be vaccinated. So we just were relying on testing."}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 16, "text": "And Hal Willner, who you mentioned - he died of COVID. So that must have really...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, luckily, I have producers there and and Lorne, too, and I feel very taken care of by the show. It was only really one episode that I missed and I really wanted to be there. And I think they "}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 17, "text": "...Kind of brought it home. And you had a boyfriend who got a bad case of COVID, but fortunately not bad enough to end up in the hospital, and he recovered. So like, the reality - COVID was real to you. I mean, it's real to most people, but, I mean, you saw the worst that could happen.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 18, "text": "And this was pretty early in the pandemic, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And it's like, this is still when New York City is really the epicenter, and our show is so about New York City. And..."}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 19, "text": "You're nominated for an Emmy, second year in a row.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Yeah. I think, you know, we were told - we went on our hiatus that was supposed to be our three-week or two-week hiatus in March and then just didn't come back until May."}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 20, "text": "That's pretty great. So let's talk a little bit about your work on \"Saturday Night Live.\" I think my favorite character that you've been doing lately is Judge Jeanine Pirro, the Fox News host. You've just really got her down", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you."}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 21, "text": ". Was it your idea to do her, or did someone say, oh, you should do her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you."}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it actually - I think it was probably Bryan Tucker, who I write with, and I wound up writing a lot of my \"Update\" characters with them, or sort of those - anybody that's a real - you know, I write"}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 23, "text": "So let's hear a clip of you doing Jeanine Pirro. This was performed after Pirro made anti-Muslim remarks about Representative Ilhan Omar. So here you are on \"Weekend Update\" as Judge Jeanine Pirro.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it would, like, end in some crazy, like, exclamation. And we just thought it was so funny, and it was a fun way to play her. And we wrote a sketch, actually, that didn't make it onto the show. It "}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 24, "text": "That's Cecily Strong is Judge Jeanine Pirro. That's just so funny. What did you do to try to capture her voice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Jeanine Pirro) Can't do it, pal. Mama's got one volume, and it's three chardonnays deep at a crowded party."}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 25, "text": "There's times on \"Update\" when Colin Jost has been laughing, like, so hard because you're so funny. And is it hard for you to keep a straight face when he's having trouble keeping a straight face?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, we definitely loved the exclamations, you know, saving those for the - what. And then just being loud and over annunciating and trying to have a stern look, you know? She's always got a very"}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 26, "text": "Well, let's take a break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Cecily Strong. She's nominated for an Emmy for her work on \"Saturday Night Live.\" She stars in the new series \"Schmigadoon!\" that's streaming on Apple TV+, and she has a new memoir. We'll talk more after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I almost enjoy it more to see when someone's laughing. Then I kind of want to, like, go further. And you know, there is still an element of, like, you're playing with your friends. And it is - it stil"}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 27, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Cecily Strong. She's nominated for an Emmy for her work on \"Saturday Night Live.\" She stars with Keegan-Michael Key in the new series \"Schmigadoon!\" - about a couple who find themselves trapped in a small town from the early 1900s where life is a musical. The series is streaming on Apple TV+. Strong also has a new memoir called \"This Will All Be Over Soon.\" It's about her life during the first year of the pandemic, when she felt overcome by anxiety and depression. When we left off, we were talking about her characters on \"SNL.\" So I want to ask you about another character that you've done, and that's the Girl You Wish You Hadn't Started a Conversation With at a Party. Is that an idea that you originated?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I almost enjoy it more to see when someone's laughing. Then I kind of want to, like, go further. And you know, there is still an element of, like, you're playing with your friends. And it is - it stil"}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 28, "text": "And who did you think of as being the girl?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. It was my first year talking with Colin. You know, we were getting ready for one of those - I think they were two \"Update\" specials because it was an election year. And he was trying to help me f"}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 29, "text": "Let's hear you as the Girl You Wish You Hadn't Started a Conversation With at a Party. And this is from the February 20, 2017, edition of \"Saturday Night Live.\" We'll first hear the voice of Michael Che on \"Weekend Update.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was sort of a mix of, like, I'm making fun of myself, and then I'm thinking about people I'd seen on Facebook. And then I remembered, like, hearing my straight, male friends talk about intera"}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 30, "text": "That's really funny. Talk about the process of writing that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As The Girl You Wish You Hadn't Started a Conversation with at a Party) And I'm sorry. If I can play devil's abacus for just a second, I think we all know the real reason Julian Assange is in jail, a"}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 31, "text": "I love the way mansplaining becomes, like, don't man-terrupt me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's usually just Colin and I. And we both enjoy malapropisms, I think, as much as each other, so it's a lot of that. Like, what word - what is, like, a word that's in the social lexicon of the mome"}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 32, "text": "That makes no sense at all.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 33, "text": "You did you first paid gig when you were 10. It was a McDonald's commercial that never aired. Do you remember it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. She's taken all these concepts and just turned them into something confusing and wrong that she's very passionate about."}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 34, "text": "Were you thrilled to be doing a commercial?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, absolutely I do. I was licking a soft-serve ice-cream cone. And there was no lines; it was all facial expressions. I am eating ice cream, and the voiceover says, like, well, McDonald's now has i"}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 35, "text": "When you were 10?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, totally. And I think, you know, getting that job is how I got into the union. So that's when I joined SAG."}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 36, "text": "A turning point in your young life", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I'd feel safer being a child actor in Chicago. You know, I was much more protected. I did a driver's-ed video for the Wisconsin Department of Transportation. I did, like, a video for kids - for "}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 37, "text": "was in 1999 when you were a sophomore in high school. You were 15. You bought some weed with a friend, put it in your backpack, then school security discovered the backpack, and you were actually handcuffed and arrested?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I'd feel safer being a child actor in Chicago. You know, I was much more protected. I did a driver's-ed video for the Wisconsin Department of Transportation. I did, like, a video for kids - for "}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 38, "text": "Would you describe that experience?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 39, "text": "That had to be off the record?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was awful. When I went to - they called me down to security to say they'd found my bag. So right away I was like, oh, God. And then they kind of looked - they made, like, a show of it and looked in"}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 40, "text": "To make your point about being a good student, you were a National Merit-commended scholar based on your PSATs. You not only - because you were expelled, you not only weren't allowed to attend the ceremony; you weren't allowed within a three-block radius of where the ceremony was, and you were threatened with arrest if you overstepped that boundary. That strikes me as a little bit crazy. What is your critique of how the school and the police handled you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, exactly. That was my parents' question."}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 41, "text": "Well, in some ways, maybe it was a good thing because you ended up - after going to Catholic school, you ended up in a performing arts high school, which is where you really fit in.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I actually will say the police had a program that I was really lucky to have. I mean, they - I got it expunged from my record by doing a hundred hours of community service, and I wound up really"}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 42, "text": "Oh, yeah. Good. How did it affect your sense of self to be arrested and to be expelled and to think, maybe, you wouldn't even graduate high school?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Although, I went back to - I actually went back to public school, which was a tough decision - you know, whether to stay at the Catholic school or go back - because the rules of the expulsion or whate"}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 43, "text": "Did you need therapy after that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I think I just felt smaller and smaller and smaller. You know, already it's - I didn't feel like I fit in. And it was hard - you know, I had theater, thank God, and really was comfortable in t"}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 44, "text": "Were you surprised that you told your mother about how you were feeling and about having thoughts about suicide?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, definitely. And I started, you know - I would - I had to tell my mom because there was a couple of nights - I shared a car with my brother at this time. And I would be driving home. And I'd go, we"}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 45, "text": "He was dealing with a lot of mental health issues?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No because it wasn't like they were not emotional thoughts, you know? It was sort of like in that robotic tone that you get kind of when you're depressed, when it's like, this is just the reality of -"}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 46, "text": "What was the impact of that on you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And he - you know, he had had depression for a long time. My brother actually did try to kill himself in eighth grade. I mean, he did a couple attempts here and there. But in eighth grade, he s"}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 47, "text": "All right. Let's take another break here. My guest is Cecily Strong. And she has a new memoir called \"This Will All Be Over Soon.\" She's now starring in the new series \"Schmigadoon!\", which is a loving satire of classic musicals from the '40s and '50s. And she's nominated for an Emmy for her work on \"Saturday Night Live.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's hard to say, honestly. I mean, it's certainly stuck with me. And it's - more than anything, it's like, watching my brother deal with his own depression, and it's like how I feel about mine. Like,"}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 48, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Cecily Strong. She's nominated for an Emmy for her work on \"Saturday Night Live.\" She has a new memoir called \"This Will All Be Over Soon.\" And she stars in the new series \"Schmigadoon!\", a satire of classic musicals from the '40s and '50s. Now that delta is causing this resurgence, what's your level of anxiety now? And I should mention here that you now - you bought a home in the Hudson Valley, which is outside of New York City. It's very beautiful there. It's on or near the Hudson River. I don't know exactly where you live. So you're not in the middle of New York City right now. You're in a safer place, safer in the sense that you can go outside without having to go down an elevator and walk through a lobby and be - you know, be in the middle of Manhattan. Are you reverting to that level of fear again?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's hard to say, honestly. I mean, it's certainly stuck with me. And it's - more than anything, it's like, watching my brother deal with his own depression, and it's like how I feel about mine. Like,"}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 49, "text": "No.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's actually - I mean, it's funny timing. I feel like my bubble just burst recently. My mom is in Mexico. And she's vaccinated. And she just told me she's got COVID."}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 50, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so I've..."}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 51, "text": "Well, I hope your mom, like, recovers really soon.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And - yeah. And so it's like, I knew I was kind of - it wouldn't last, this safety that I was feeling by being vaccinated. And then it just - my bubble just burst. And I'm now back to worrying a"}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 52, "text": "And I wish her the best. You're nominated for an Emmy for your work on \"SNL,\" and so are some of the other cast members. How does it feel? Do you feel like you're competing with other people who are nominated?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 53, "text": "Reports are that you're not sure whether you're going back to \"SNL\" in the fall.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I would - it feels great because, this past year especially, I'm just - I'm so proud of the show and being a part of the show. And I think, you know, whatever name is next to an Emmy nomination, i"}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 54, "text": "Have you decided?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 55, "text": "So when does a decision have to be made? I mean, the season starts - what? - in late September usually.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I haven't. It's still - and I think, like, even though that seems crazy to say in the middle of summer, I think it's been a wild couple of years, and so I'm just - I'm OK with not knowing."}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 56, "text": "Well, I wish you well. I wish your mother well.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. So, I mean, I assume it'll have to be soon. And I'll meet - you know, I'll probably talk to Lorne more and talk to my agents, and we'll figure it out, figure out where I'll be. So, you know, I'm "}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 57, "text": "Oh, that's nice of you to say. And anything I can do to help", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. I think it'll - honestly, I think she'll be so touched to hear that from you, too. Again, my family, everyone I know - huge fans. So they'll be - I think that'll brighten her day."}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 58, "text": "would make me feel very good. And whatever you decide to do about \"Saturday Night Live,\" I wish you well.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. I think it'll - honestly, I think she'll be so touched to hear that from you, too. Again, my family, everyone I know - huge fans. So they'll be - I think that'll brighten her day."}
{"id": "1025473209", "date": "2021-08-09", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "Cecily Strong On 'SNL,' 'Schmigadoon!' And Coping In The Early Days Of The Pandemic", "question_index": 59, "text": "Cecily Strong stars in the new series \"Schmigadoon!\" - which is now streaming on Apple TV+. She's nominated for an Emmy for her work on \"Saturday Night Live.\" After we take a short break, Ken Tucker will review a new album of songs Prince recorded in 2010. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you so much. I appreciate it."}
{"id": "1027039078", "date": "2021-08-12", "guest": "Katie Benner", "title": "New Testimony Reveals Trump Pressured The DOJ To Falsely Question Election Results", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Donald Trump's attempts to subvert the 2020 election results and declare himself the winner are being investigated by the Department of Justice's inspector general, the Senate Judiciary Committee and the House Select Committee investigating the January 6 attack on the Capitol. My guest, New York Times reporter Katie Benner, broke the story that led two investigations. That article revealed that Jeffrey Clark, the acting head of the Justice Department's Civil Division, tried to get DOJ leaders to falsely claim that investigations into voter fraud in Georgia cast doubt on the Electoral College results. She also reported that Clark had plotted with President Trump to oust the acting attorney general, replace him with Clark and use the Justice Department's power to force Georgia state lawmakers to overturn its presidential election results. Benner covers the Justice Department for the Times and has been continuing to report on these investigations into Trump's efforts to overturn the results of the election and what she describes as the former president's desire to batter the Justice Department into advancing his personal agenda. We're going to talk about what has been revealed so far, who else is involved and what the legal consequences might be. Benner won a 2018 Pulitzer Prize for a contribution to the Times' reporting on sexual harassment. Her article was about the culture of harassment in Silicon Valley. We recorded our interview yesterday morning. Later in the day, Benner reported that a former U.S. attorney in Atlanta, Byung J. Pak, had just told the Senate Judiciary Committee in a closed-door session that his abrupt resignation on January 4 had been prompted by a warning from DOJ officials that Trump intended to fire him for refusing to say that widespread voter fraud had been found in Georgia. Katie Benner, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1027039078", "date": "2021-08-12", "guest": "Katie Benner", "title": "New Testimony Reveals Trump Pressured The DOJ To Falsely Question Election Results", "question_index": 1, "text": "Let's start with the story you broke that led to the ongoing investigations into Trump. What was the New Year's Eve meeting about in the Justice Department? And this is New Year's Eve 2020.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "1027039078", "date": "2021-08-12", "guest": "Katie Benner", "title": "New Testimony Reveals Trump Pressured The DOJ To Falsely Question Election Results", "question_index": 2, "text": "Yeah, let's talk about that plot a little bit. So tell us more about the communication between Clark and the president and the plot that they came up with to oust Jeffrey Rosen, who was the acting attorney general.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So on New Year's Eve, Justice Department officials met with a man named Jeff Clark. Very few people outside of the department knew anything about him. He was the acting head of the Civil Division. And"}
{"id": "1027039078", "date": "2021-08-12", "guest": "Katie Benner", "title": "New Testimony Reveals Trump Pressured The DOJ To Falsely Question Election Results", "question_index": 3, "text": "What did you learn about how Trump planned on ousting Jeffrey Rosen and installing Jeffrey Clark?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So we don't know the full details of this, but what we do know is that Jeff Clark was talking to the president. He felt that there was a plan that could be implemented that nobody else in the departme"}
{"id": "1027039078", "date": "2021-08-12", "guest": "Katie Benner", "title": "New Testimony Reveals Trump Pressured The DOJ To Falsely Question Election Results", "question_index": 4, "text": "So what happened to Jeffrey Clark? How far did he get with Trump?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, from the point of view of the Justice Department officials who I spoke with, what they understood is that the president was amenable to making this replacement and that they felt they needed to "}
{"id": "1027039078", "date": "2021-08-12", "guest": "Katie Benner", "title": "New Testimony Reveals Trump Pressured The DOJ To Falsely Question Election Results", "question_index": 5, "text": "It's alarming that department officials hadn't threatened to resign en masse that Trump might have succeeded with his plan to oust the acting attorney general, Jeffrey Rosen, and install Trump's own guy, Jeffrey Clark, as the head of the DOJ with the expectation that Jeffrey Clark would carry out Trump's will and subvert the election results and declare Trump the winner - and help declare Trump the winner.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, we know that he got far enough to convince Trump that he could possibly make a dent in the election result, that he could do something to, if nothing else, undermine the validity of the elec"}
{"id": "1027039078", "date": "2021-08-12", "guest": "Katie Benner", "title": "New Testimony Reveals Trump Pressured The DOJ To Falsely Question Election Results", "question_index": 6, "text": "Something that I kept wondering reading your articles was, why didn't Jeffrey Rosen fire Jeffrey Clark? Would he have had the power to do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it is alarming. And I think that for the officials inside the department in that key period of time between, you know, New Year's Eve and January 6, they were in complete shock. You know, you sa"}
{"id": "1027039078", "date": "2021-08-12", "guest": "Katie Benner", "title": "New Testimony Reveals Trump Pressured The DOJ To Falsely Question Election Results", "question_index": 7, "text": "Oh, well, there you go", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Jeffrey Clark was Senate confirmed. And only the president can fire Jeffrey Clark."}
{"id": "1027039078", "date": "2021-08-12", "guest": "Katie Benner", "title": "New Testimony Reveals Trump Pressured The DOJ To Falsely Question Election Results", "question_index": 8, "text": ". I guess that wasn't going to happen.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Jeffrey Clark was Senate confirmed. And only the president can fire Jeffrey Clark."}
{"id": "1027039078", "date": "2021-08-12", "guest": "Katie Benner", "title": "New Testimony Reveals Trump Pressured The DOJ To Falsely Question Election Results", "question_index": 9, "text": "What has Jeffrey Clark admitted so far? And were you able to get a comment from him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But what is so unusual about this situation is that they have this really tense meeting, as you can imagine, late into the evening on Sunday night of January 3. And Jeff Clark comes into work the next"}
{"id": "1027039078", "date": "2021-08-12", "guest": "Katie Benner", "title": "New Testimony Reveals Trump Pressured The DOJ To Falsely Question Election Results", "question_index": 10, "text": "So let me reintroduce you here and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Katie Benner, and she reports on the Justice Department for The New York Times. We'll talk more after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd heard, you know, rumblings inside of the department - this was all after January 6 - when I would be speaking to people and calling them to see what was going on about the January 6 investigations"}
{"id": "1027039078", "date": "2021-08-12", "guest": "Katie Benner", "title": "New Testimony Reveals Trump Pressured The DOJ To Falsely Question Election Results", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. If you're just joining us, my guest is Katie Benner. She reports on the Justice Department for The New York Times. She's reporting on investigations into Donald Trump's attempts to subvert the 2020 election results and declare himself the winner. This is being investigated by the inspector general of the Justice Department, the Senate Judiciary Committee and investigators in the House of Representatives. These investigations were kicked off by an article she reported last January. So if Jeffrey Clark considers his conversations with Trump privileged conversations, does that mean that he has the right to refuse to testify to any of the people currently investigating Trump's attempts to subvert the election results?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd heard, you know, rumblings inside of the department - this was all after January 6 - when I would be speaking to people and calling them to see what was going on about the January 6 investigations"}
{"id": "1027039078", "date": "2021-08-12", "guest": "Katie Benner", "title": "New Testimony Reveals Trump Pressured The DOJ To Falsely Question Election Results", "question_index": 12, "text": "Is there a but? Yeah", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That is normally what that would mean because every administration has protected the idea of privilege, the idea that communications between the president and top administration officials should be ke"}
{"id": "1027039078", "date": "2021-08-12", "guest": "Katie Benner", "title": "New Testimony Reveals Trump Pressured The DOJ To Falsely Question Election Results", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That is normally what that would mean because every administration has protected the idea of privilege, the idea that communications between the president and top administration officials should be ke"}
{"id": "1027039078", "date": "2021-08-12", "guest": "Katie Benner", "title": "New Testimony Reveals Trump Pressured The DOJ To Falsely Question Election Results", "question_index": 14, "text": "So let's talk about the phone call between Trump, Acting Attorney General Jeffrey Rosen and his top aide, Richard Donohue. What was that phone call about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In this case, something different happened several months later. This summer, the Justice Department under Merrick Garland made a very different decision in these conversations about the election betw"}
{"id": "1027039078", "date": "2021-08-12", "guest": "Katie Benner", "title": "New Testimony Reveals Trump Pressured The DOJ To Falsely Question Election Results", "question_index": 15, "text": "So what was the response to Trump's request?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. So this phone call takes place on December 27. It is many weeks after the election has been declared for Biden, but Trump is still obsessed with this idea that he can overturn the results or tha"}
{"id": "1027039078", "date": "2021-08-12", "guest": "Katie Benner", "title": "New Testimony Reveals Trump Pressured The DOJ To Falsely Question Election Results", "question_index": 16, "text": "Do you know what Trump meant when he said, leave the rest to me? What did he have in mind? What - do you think that that was firing Rosen? Or what do you think?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So you see Donahue quote Trump as well as he can, perhaps because he found Trump's response to be so notable. And then you see in his notes that throughout the conversation he is continually saying we"}
{"id": "1027039078", "date": "2021-08-12", "guest": "Katie Benner", "title": "New Testimony Reveals Trump Pressured The DOJ To Falsely Question Election Results", "question_index": 17, "text": "Well, let's take another break here and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Katie Benner. She covers the Justice Department for The New York Times. We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that he understood that once an official body like the Justice Department says that the presidential election is corrupt and cannot be trusted, that that would be a really big deal, and it wou"}
{"id": "1027039078", "date": "2021-08-12", "guest": "Katie Benner", "title": "New Testimony Reveals Trump Pressured The DOJ To Falsely Question Election Results", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. If you're just joining us, my guest is Katie Benner. She reports on the Justice Department for The New York Times. And we're talking about Donald Trump's attempts to subvert the 2020 election results and declare himself the winner. This is being investigated by the Department of Justice's inspector general, the Senate Judiciary Committee and investigators in the House of Representatives. So another story you reported on is a meeting between Richard Donahue, who was the top official under Jeffrey Rosen in the Justice Department, Trump's chief of staff, Mark Meadows, the White House counsel, Pat Cipollone, and White House deputy counsel Patrick Philbin. What was this meeting about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that he understood that once an official body like the Justice Department says that the presidential election is corrupt and cannot be trusted, that that would be a really big deal, and it wou"}
{"id": "1027039078", "date": "2021-08-12", "guest": "Katie Benner", "title": "New Testimony Reveals Trump Pressured The DOJ To Falsely Question Election Results", "question_index": 19, "text": "I keep wondering, why didn't anyone in the Justice Department come forward when they knew how Trump was trying to subvert the election results?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So during this meeting in the Oval Office, Mark Meadows was explaining that the Justice Department needed to look into an unfounded conspiracy theory that is known as Italygate. It's a widely debunked"}
{"id": "1027039078", "date": "2021-08-12", "guest": "Katie Benner", "title": "New Testimony Reveals Trump Pressured The DOJ To Falsely Question Election Results", "question_index": 20, "text": "Have any of the people who worked on behalf of Trump spoken with you recently about these ongoing investigations?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think this is one of the big questions that investigators are also trying to get to the bottom of. When you think about what was going on in those really chaotic days after the election was declared"}
{"id": "1027039078", "date": "2021-08-12", "guest": "Katie Benner", "title": "New Testimony Reveals Trump Pressured The DOJ To Falsely Question Election Results", "question_index": 21, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Katie Benner. She covers the Justice Department for The New York Times. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Another way to look at it, though, is whether or not any of the White House officials involved in those last few weeks of the administration have spoken with investigators, and to our knowledge, they "}
{"id": "1027039078", "date": "2021-08-12", "guest": "Katie Benner", "title": "New Testimony Reveals Trump Pressured The DOJ To Falsely Question Election Results", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Katie Benner. She covers the Justice Department for The New York Times. We're talking about Donald Trump's attempts to subvert the election results so that he could declare himself the winner. What are Trump and his lawyers trying to do to prevent people from testifying in the ongoing investigations?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Another way to look at it, though, is whether or not any of the White House officials involved in those last few weeks of the administration have spoken with investigators, and to our knowledge, they "}
{"id": "1027039078", "date": "2021-08-12", "guest": "Katie Benner", "title": "New Testimony Reveals Trump Pressured The DOJ To Falsely Question Election Results", "question_index": 23, "text": "So just to clarify, who are they saying could testify, and who would they try to stop from testifying?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So that's a really interesting thing. You would have thought that the former president would have sued to prevent people from testifying or he would have made some sort of motion to prevent what could"}
{"id": "1027039078", "date": "2021-08-12", "guest": "Katie Benner", "title": "New Testimony Reveals Trump Pressured The DOJ To Falsely Question Election Results", "question_index": 24, "text": "The Justice Department already had some clues about what was happening in terms of Trump trying to overturn the election results a few days before January 6, a few days before the attack on the Capitol. What have you learned about the reaction within the Justice Department after the Capitol was invaded by Trump supporters?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So investigators in Congress - they've asked for the testimony of a few key former Justice Department officials. That would include Jeffrey Rosen, who was the acting attorney general at the time, Rich"}
{"id": "1027039078", "date": "2021-08-12", "guest": "Katie Benner", "title": "New Testimony Reveals Trump Pressured The DOJ To Falsely Question Election Results", "question_index": 25, "text": "There's some very incriminating information that has come out so far about what Donald Trump tried to do to nullify the Biden victory and declare himself the winner. So why do you think that it's more likely that other officials would be prosecuted, but not Trump himself? Because if he's the one pulling the strings and if he's the one doing the ask, why would he be not prosecuted? Why wouldn't he be prosecuted?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In the hours after the January 6 attack, I think that the best description for what was going on inside of the Justice Department was a feeling of complete horror. You know, they felt that they had su"}
{"id": "1027039078", "date": "2021-08-12", "guest": "Katie Benner", "title": "New Testimony Reveals Trump Pressured The DOJ To Falsely Question Election Results", "question_index": 26, "text": "You know, in addition to Trump's efforts to overturn the election results, we're also seeing a lot of efforts by Republicans to pass and, in many cases, succeed in having new, restrictive voting laws. We're looking at state legislatures who are passing or trying to pass laws that say they can declare fraud in the state's election results and then choose the electors for the Electoral College themselves. And we're still seeing an ongoing, you know, audit of the votes in Maricopa County, Ariz., in what is an apparent attempt to look for fraud, which has not been discovered so far, in what appears to be an attempt to overturn the election results in that county. So now the Justice Department - it's a Biden administration Justice Department. Merrick Garland is the attorney general. So what is the Merrick Garland Justice Department trying to do to protect voting rights in the U.S.?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess the reason I'm hesitant to say that the Justice Department would want to open up an investigation to President Trump first - I guess there are two reasons for that. One is really practical, an"}
{"id": "1027039078", "date": "2021-08-12", "guest": "Katie Benner", "title": "New Testimony Reveals Trump Pressured The DOJ To Falsely Question Election Results", "question_index": 27, "text": "Katie Benner, thank you so much for talking with us, and thank you for your reporting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So protecting voting access is one of the very top, top, top goals of the Merrick Garland Justice Department. It's something that Garland feels extremely strongly about. The head of the Civil Rights D"}
{"id": "1027039078", "date": "2021-08-12", "guest": "Katie Benner", "title": "New Testimony Reveals Trump Pressured The DOJ To Falsely Question Election Results", "question_index": 28, "text": "Katie Benner covers the Justice Department for The New York Times. Our interview was recorded yesterday morning. Coming up, Kevin Whitehead reviews the new debut album by Samara Joy, winner of the 2019 Sarah Vaughan International Jazz Vocal Competition. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1028076069", "date": "2021-08-16", "guest": "Adam Harris", "title": "'The State Must Provide' Is A Lesson On Inequality In Higher Ed, Past And Present", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. America's colleges have always been unequal, writes my guest, Adam Harris. His new book, \"The State Must Provide,\" explains how slavery, segregation and continuing racism prevented or stymied Black education. He examines some of the turning points when higher education could have been made equal and centuries of discrimination could have been remedied. He also writes about the important role historically Black colleges and universities have played and the reasons why they have remained underfunded. Harris went to an HBCU, Alabama A&M University. He's now a staff writer at The Atlantic, where he writes about education and national politics. And he's a fellow at the think tank New America. He previously was a reporter at The Chronicle of Higher Education. Adam Harris, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1028076069", "date": "2021-08-16", "guest": "Adam Harris", "title": "'The State Must Provide' Is A Lesson On Inequality In Higher Ed, Past And Present", "question_index": 1, "text": "I think it's interesting - and I'd like to hear your impressions of this - I think it's interesting that the publication of your book coincides with a movement on the right to ban the teaching of what they describe as critical race theory. They don't want schools to teach about the history of racism and how racism is baked into American law and other systems and institutions. Your book is about how racism has been baked into higher education. Do you think your book is an example of what the anti-critical race theory movement wouldn't want taught?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks so much for having me."}
{"id": "1028076069", "date": "2021-08-16", "guest": "Adam Harris", "title": "'The State Must Provide' Is A Lesson On Inequality In Higher Ed, Past And Present", "question_index": 2, "text": "You experienced racial disparity going to an HBCU, Alabama A&M, in Normal, Ala. You liked the college. But one day you went to the library at the University of Alabama-Huntsville (ph) because it had longer hours and a better collection. What did you notice comparing the two campuses?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I've been thinking about that very question a lot lately. And there are ways that historically this current movement kind of factors into the historical push to sort of obfuscate about the w"}
{"id": "1028076069", "date": "2021-08-16", "guest": "Adam Harris", "title": "'The State Must Provide' Is A Lesson On Inequality In Higher Ed, Past And Present", "question_index": 3, "text": "So the university you went to, an HBCU, was publicly funded, as was the University of Alabama-Huntsville. So what accounts for the discrepancy in the amount of money each of those schools got?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Alabama A&M has always been a family institution for me. It's where my mom went to school. My sister was on campus at the same time as I was. My uncle was a drum major there. And so I had that con"}
{"id": "1028076069", "date": "2021-08-16", "guest": "Adam Harris", "title": "'The State Must Provide' Is A Lesson On Inequality In Higher Ed, Past And Present", "question_index": 4, "text": "So what you're describing, in some instances, is a self-perpetuating cycle where Black students who were historically denied an equal education are now often going to underfunded universities because those Black students who were historically deprived of an equal education aren't performing as well as the white students who were not deprived", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "on campus. Meanwhile, Alabama A&M is overwhelmingly Black. And so just looking at those two different student populations, looking at who they're serving and looking at which institutions receive "}
{"id": "1028076069", "date": "2021-08-16", "guest": "Adam Harris", "title": "'The State Must Provide' Is A Lesson On Inequality In Higher Ed, Past And Present", "question_index": 5, "text": "of that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "on campus. Meanwhile, Alabama A&M is overwhelmingly Black. And so just looking at those two different student populations, looking at who they're serving and looking at which institutions receive "}
{"id": "1028076069", "date": "2021-08-16", "guest": "Adam Harris", "title": "'The State Must Provide' Is A Lesson On Inequality In Higher Ed, Past And Present", "question_index": 6, "text": "...Good education.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1028076069", "date": "2021-08-16", "guest": "Adam Harris", "title": "'The State Must Provide' Is A Lesson On Inequality In Higher Ed, Past And Present", "question_index": 7, "text": "So what are some of the racial disparities that you see now in higher education? And then we could talk about some of the things historically that you think have led to those disparities.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1028076069", "date": "2021-08-16", "guest": "Adam Harris", "title": "'The State Must Provide' Is A Lesson On Inequality In Higher Ed, Past And Present", "question_index": 8, "text": "Looking at some of the history behind racial inequity in higher education - I mean, there used to be laws in some southern states, including Alabama, where you're from, where it was illegal to teach Black people to read. And this was during slave times.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So there are a couple of things, right? If you - one, if you're looking at enrollment numbers at some of the most selective institutions in the country - the University of California, Berkeley, the Un"}
{"id": "1028076069", "date": "2021-08-16", "guest": "Adam Harris", "title": "'The State Must Provide' Is A Lesson On Inequality In Higher Ed, Past And Present", "question_index": 9, "text": "And how did that carry over to post-slave times?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. So there were a string of laws, you know, beginning with South Carolina in 1740, that - states would basically pass laws that would ban and bar Black people from learning to read. In some states,"}
{"id": "1028076069", "date": "2021-08-16", "guest": "Adam Harris", "title": "'The State Must Provide' Is A Lesson On Inequality In Higher Ed, Past And Present", "question_index": 10, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Adam Harris. He's author of the new book \"The State Must Provide: Why America's Colleges Have Always Been Unequal - And How To Set Them Right.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So initially, after slavery, after the Civil War, you enter into this period of Reconstruction, where you have Northern white philanthropists who are coming down and helping to start colleges and prim"}
{"id": "1028076069", "date": "2021-08-16", "guest": "Adam Harris", "title": "'The State Must Provide' Is A Lesson On Inequality In Higher Ed, Past And Present", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Adam Harris, author of the new book \"The State Must Provide: Why America's Colleges Have Always Been Unequal - And How To Set Them Right.\" He writes about education and national politics for The Atlantic, where he's a staff writer. The first integrated coed college in the South was Berea College in Kentucky. It was founded by John Fee, a Presbyterian minister and abolitionist, in 1855. And the land for this college was provided by someone named Cassius Clay - not the Cassius Clay, of course. And he was the son of a slave owner, but Cassius Clay was an abolitionist. So tell us the story of how John Fee was attacked and driven out of town after founding Berea College.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So initially, after slavery, after the Civil War, you enter into this period of Reconstruction, where you have Northern white philanthropists who are coming down and helping to start colleges and prim"}
{"id": "1028076069", "date": "2021-08-16", "guest": "Adam Harris", "title": "'The State Must Provide' Is A Lesson On Inequality In Higher Ed, Past And Present", "question_index": 12, "text": "And the college was integrated until 1904, until a law was passed prohibiting white students from attending school with Black students. That was the Day Law, named after the Kentucky legislator Carl Day. Tell us a little bit about this law and its impact.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So John Fee had this idea. He sort of became an abolitionist after attending a Northern seminary and had this idea to start a college that was basically biblical - right? - this idea that came o"}
{"id": "1028076069", "date": "2021-08-16", "guest": "Adam Harris", "title": "'The State Must Provide' Is A Lesson On Inequality In Higher Ed, Past And Present", "question_index": 13, "text": "And Plessy was the 1896 Supreme Court decision that said it's within a state's rights to prohibit integration. It said it was OK to have institutions that were separate - racially separate but equal. And as we all know, those institutions typically were not equal. So when you look at the history of higher education and racism in higher education, what's the importance of Berea?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So effectively, as the lore goes in Kentucky, you know, Carl Day was passing through town and saw a Black woman and a white woman hugging on a train platform and poked around to figure out what "}
{"id": "1028076069", "date": "2021-08-16", "guest": "Adam Harris", "title": "'The State Must Provide' Is A Lesson On Inequality In Higher Ed, Past And Present", "question_index": 14, "text": "Several HBCUs are land-grant colleges. First, I want you to explain what a land-grant college is. A lot of people to know the expression but don't know what it actually means.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the importance of Berea is that even before the Civil War, you had people who were actively thinking about interracial education, who were thinking about equity and equality in education. And they "}
{"id": "1028076069", "date": "2021-08-16", "guest": "Adam Harris", "title": "'The State Must Provide' Is A Lesson On Inequality In Higher Ed, Past And Present", "question_index": 15, "text": "So there were two stages of the Morrill Act, one in 1862 and one in 1890. I think it wasn't until 1890 that some of these funds were allotted to what became HBCUs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So land-grant colleges are the result of the 1862 and 1890 Morrill Acts, which basically gave states land or land scripts that they are able to sell - so this is land that was expropriated from Native"}
{"id": "1028076069", "date": "2021-08-16", "guest": "Adam Harris", "title": "'The State Must Provide' Is A Lesson On Inequality In Higher Ed, Past And Present", "question_index": 16, "text": "Several of the HBCUs were founded as colleges through the Morrill Act, specializing in agriculture and the mechanical arts. Other HBCUs were not founded through the Morrill Act and were founded independently. Do you see a difference between how the state-funded ones and the others developed over the years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. So the original Morrill Act grew out of this movement to train people, like, common people - to open colleges to more people. There were places to teach people how to be lawyers and doctors, but "}
{"id": "1028076069", "date": "2021-08-16", "guest": "Adam Harris", "title": "'The State Must Provide' Is A Lesson On Inequality In Higher Ed, Past And Present", "question_index": 17, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Adam Harris, author of the new book \"The State Must Provide: Why America's Colleges Have Always Been Unequal - And How to Set Them Right.\" We'll be back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So there are some differences and some similarities. I think that the throughline is the disparity in funding. And generally, there is some difference in that land grants are supposed to receive match"}
{"id": "1028076069", "date": "2021-08-16", "guest": "Adam Harris", "title": "'The State Must Provide' Is A Lesson On Inequality In Higher Ed, Past And Present", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Adam Harris, author of the new book \"The State Must Provide: Why America's Colleges Have Always Been Unequal And How To Set Them Right.\" He's a staff writer at The Atlantic, where he writes about education and national politics. He formerly wrote for The Chronicle of Higher Education. What do you see as the importance of HBCUs in higher education in America?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So there are some differences and some similarities. I think that the throughline is the disparity in funding. And generally, there is some difference in that land grants are supposed to receive match"}
{"id": "1028076069", "date": "2021-08-16", "guest": "Adam Harris", "title": "'The State Must Provide' Is A Lesson On Inequality In Higher Ed, Past And Present", "question_index": 19, "text": "You write about an interesting case that started in 1948, when a student named Ada Lois Sipuel sued to be admitted to the University of Oklahoma Law School. And the Supreme Court ruled that Oklahoma was required to provide her a legal education. Was this the state Supreme Court or the federal Supreme Court?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "People often talk about the historical importance of the institutions, but I think that kind of undersells the kind of current role that they play in creating and sustaining the Black middle class. So"}
{"id": "1028076069", "date": "2021-08-16", "guest": "Adam Harris", "title": "'The State Must Provide' Is A Lesson On Inequality In Higher Ed, Past And Present", "question_index": 20, "text": "Was this so-called law school - was she the only student in it? Was it created for her, just to keep her out of the university?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is the federal Supreme Court. They ruled kind of in accordance with a previous case in 1938, the Lloyd Gaines case, that the state was at the very least required to provide a separate education -"}
{"id": "1028076069", "date": "2021-08-16", "guest": "Adam Harris", "title": "'The State Must Provide' Is A Lesson On Inequality In Higher Ed, Past And Present", "question_index": 21, "text": "Eventually, the University of Oklahoma did have to admit Black students, but it created barriers within classrooms to make sure there was no mingling. Describe what they did at the university.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it was created for her to, effectively, keep her out of the University of Oklahoma's Law School. And on the day that the law school opened, no students ultimately enrolled. And they went back to "}
{"id": "1028076069", "date": "2021-08-16", "guest": "Adam Harris", "title": "'The State Must Provide' Is A Lesson On Inequality In Higher Ed, Past And Present", "question_index": 22, "text": "Let's jump ahead in time to 1964 and the passage of the Civil Rights Act, which included Title VI. Describe what Title VI did in terms of integration in higher education.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, so ultimately, Ada Lois is not the first student to enroll at the University of Oklahoma. That distinction goes to - the first Black student, I should say. That distinction goes to George McLaur"}
{"id": "1028076069", "date": "2021-08-16", "guest": "Adam Harris", "title": "'The State Must Provide' Is A Lesson On Inequality In Higher Ed, Past And Present", "question_index": 23, "text": "So affirmative action was challenged by Allan Bakke who applied to the University of California, Davis School of Medicine in 1972 in an early admissions program, applied again in '73 and was turned down. And he basically sued the university, saying that he was turned down because he was white and because they had to fill a quota of Black students, and that's why he didn't get it, and that was racial discrimination. So talk a little bit about that suit and the Supreme Court decision it led to.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, so Title VI is the law that says that federal funds will not go to institutions that discriminate against people based on their race, sex or otherwise. And practically, for higher education inst"}
{"id": "1028076069", "date": "2021-08-16", "guest": "Adam Harris", "title": "'The State Must Provide' Is A Lesson On Inequality In Higher Ed, Past And Present", "question_index": 24, "text": "Do you think the Bakke decision could have been a turning point in remedying discrimination if it had gone the other way, if the case was decided, like, it's OK for colleges and universities to use a quota system to remedy the discrimination of the past?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So ultimately, he ends up challenging the school's special admissions program, arguing that it's a quota and that it was keeping him out of the institution, discriminating against him. And the c"}
{"id": "1028076069", "date": "2021-08-16", "guest": "Adam Harris", "title": "'The State Must Provide' Is A Lesson On Inequality In Higher Ed, Past And Present", "question_index": 25, "text": "So what is legal now for universities to do in admissions in order to try to expand the number of African Americans and people of color who are admitted?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I do. And there was - in part because, you know, if you think about some of the dissenting opinions or some of the opinions of the other judges - so Justice Thurgood Marshall, for example, h"}
{"id": "1028076069", "date": "2021-08-16", "guest": "Adam Harris", "title": "'The State Must Provide' Is A Lesson On Inequality In Higher Ed, Past And Present", "question_index": 26, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Adam Harris, author of the new book \"The State Must Provide: Why America's Colleges Have Always Been Unequal - And How To Set Them Right.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So institutions are allowed to use race in admissions in concert with a host of other factors including, you know, SATs, GPAs, extracurricular activities, in order to make admissions decisions i"}
{"id": "1028076069", "date": "2021-08-16", "guest": "Adam Harris", "title": "'The State Must Provide' Is A Lesson On Inequality In Higher Ed, Past And Present", "question_index": 27, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Adam Harris, author of the new book \"The State Must Provide: Why America's Colleges Have Always Been Unequal - And How To Set Them Right.\" He's a staff writer at The Atlantic, where he writes about education and national politics. Several universities are now examining the legacy of racism in their institutions. What are some of the ways that universities are trying to remedy this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So institutions are allowed to use race in admissions in concert with a host of other factors including, you know, SATs, GPAs, extracurricular activities, in order to make admissions decisions i"}
{"id": "1028076069", "date": "2021-08-16", "guest": "Adam Harris", "title": "'The State Must Provide' Is A Lesson On Inequality In Higher Ed, Past And Present", "question_index": 28, "text": "You've been writing a little bit about education during this period of the pandemic. Do you think that Black students are being disproportionately disadvantaged by the pandemic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So over the last several decades - right? - we've seen a shift where institutions have started to study their links to slavery, segregation and systemic discrimination. You saw it first - one of"}
{"id": "1028076069", "date": "2021-08-16", "guest": "Adam Harris", "title": "'The State Must Provide' Is A Lesson On Inequality In Higher Ed, Past And Present", "question_index": 29, "text": "You write that the Biden administration is making an unprecedented investment in HBCUs. What is the Biden administration doing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think, in some ways, yes, in part because of where a large chunk of Black students attend, right? Community college enrollments have shrunk over the last year. And, you know, in a place like North C"}
{"id": "1028076069", "date": "2021-08-16", "guest": "Adam Harris", "title": "'The State Must Provide' Is A Lesson On Inequality In Higher Ed, Past And Present", "question_index": 30, "text": "Well, Adam Harris, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So each year, HBCUs receive about a billion dollars across, you know, roughly 15 programs from the federal government. Effectively, through the string of recovery acts and bills, HBCUs will receive ab"}
{"id": "1028076069", "date": "2021-08-16", "guest": "Adam Harris", "title": "'The State Must Provide' Is A Lesson On Inequality In Higher Ed, Past And Present", "question_index": 31, "text": "Adam Harris is a staff writer at The Atlantic and author of the new book \"The State Must Provide: Why America's Colleges Have Always Been Unequal - And How To Set Them Right.\" After we take a short break, TV critic David Bianculli will review the new miniseries \"Nine Perfect Strangers,\" starring Nicole Kidman, based on a novel by Liane Moriarty, who also wrote the novel \"Big Little Lies.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks so much for having me."}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 0, "text": "Mid-1950s Tony Bennett with the Count Basie Orchestra. Can I ask you what attracted you to this song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Chicago, Chicago, that toddling town. Chicago, Chicago, I'll show you around. Bet your bottom dollar you'll lose the blues in Chicago. Chicago, the town that Marty Faye could not shut down. "}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 1, "text": "Is there any etiquette among singers about who records what tune, and - like, could anyone record \"I Left My Heart In San Francisco\" after you recorded it? How many years did it take until someone was able to make a recording of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, yeah, it was at the David Dushoff's, you know, Latin Casino. And that's the first time Basie and I had ever gotten together. I think it's the first time a singer ever got together with Basie"}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 2, "text": "If one looks to see what other people are recording and there's certain songs you don't touch, the only person I think now who would be in the same league with you would be Sinatra. Would you be paying attention to what other people were recording and seeing what was theirs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, see in the early '50s, when I recorded, there was still a semblance of ethics, you know, because if Nat Cole had a recording, you just left it alone. You found your own. And it was quite a chall"}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 3, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, hey; you know, if someone comes up with a nice song, and you feel you could do - to me, there is a game, and the game is to make it your own number somehow..."}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 4, "text": "What makes a song right for you to sing? I mean, you have a wonderful repertoire, and your interpretation of certain songs have really made me hear them in a way I haven't before. How do you know that a song is one that you want to sing? What do you look for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Even if you have to change the tempo a little. If someone - if Sinatra's doing a tune that's a ballad, but you like it very much, you could swing it, or if there's a swing tune that you could turn "}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 5, "text": "I'd like to play a selection from the first album you recorded with Bill Evans, \"We'll Be Together Again.\" That's what we're going to hear. How did this album come to be?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, something I've experienced - sometimes I just migrate over to, like, what's autobiographical? Unconsciously, I'll just find something, and I say, my God, I've experienced that. I've lived that. "}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 6, "text": "Did you have to talk about each other's music much before you started to actually play together? Were there any things that you really had to work out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the great jazz singer Annie Ross is a dear friend of mine, and she suggested it. She was the one who said do an album with Bill Evans. And Bill and I met one another in London at Ronnie Scott's "}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 7, "text": "I love the song that we're about to hear, \"We'll Be Together Again.\" Can I ask you why you chose to include this one?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we had an admiration society going. He liked the way I sang. I love the way he played. And then we - the only kind of conversations we had about that were just what songs we both agreed that we "}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, let's hear this recording of \"We'll Be Together Again\" with my guest Tony Bennett singing, accompanied by pianist Bill Evans.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one of the nicest guys I ever met in the music business was Carl Fischer, who was an accompanist for Frankie Laine. He was American Indian and a wonderful person who met me before I was popular,"}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 9, "text": "Tony Bennett with Bill Evans. Can I ask you something?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) No tears, no fears. Remember; there's always tomorrow. So what if we have to part? We'll be together again. Your kiss, your smile are memories I'll treasure forever. Try thinking with your h"}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 10, "text": "Do you like your voice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 11, "text": "Good", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 13, "text": "I know it sounds foolish to ask you if you like your voice. But I just know so many musicians who really can't listen back to their stuff. And they might like what they do in the abstract, but...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I happen to like myself. But I'm not in love with myself. I like my - no, I'm - you know, but..."}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 14, "text": "Do you find that you do a different kind of performance in a more showbiz setting than you would, say, in a jazz club? And do the audiences respond to different kinds of material in those different settings?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Now, Bill was, like, amazing. Bill always felt like he was never getting it. I mean, it was very frustrating for me - all this magnificent music. First of all, he was very careful about his pianos. If"}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 15, "text": "When you're using a microphone, which hand do you hold it in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I like to experiment. So therefore I like being flexible. I like studying flexibility. I like going from a piano player as wonderful as Bill Evans up to a philharmonic orchestra. I did a television sp"}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 16, "text": "How come?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Left hand."}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 17, "text": "So is that why you think your right hand moves?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 18, "text": "Did you know that \"I Left My Heart In San Francisco\" would be the overwhelming smash success that it was?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Last week it was announced that Tony Bennett is retiring from performing, following doctor's orders. We're listening to Terry's 1982 interview with him."}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 19, "text": "What goes through your mind when you sing it now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had no idea about that one because I really thought that was a local hit, that in San Francisco the people loved their magnificent city. And I thought it would just be local in that area, having no "}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 20, "text": "So if your brother was the little Caruso, what were you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was a very wonderful opera singer. They called him the little Caruso. He was 13 and sang solo spots in the Metropolitan Opera and did radio shows. In those days, that was the highest ratings. The s"}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 21, "text": "Now, your father died when you were 9. How did your mother earn the money to bring up the children?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was the comedian because I had to compete somehow for all that attention. And I imitated Al Jolson and Eddie Cantor. And I did imitations of them. And it used to break my relatives up. Every S"}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 22, "text": "How old were you when you had to go out and work for a living?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she was an amazing lady because she was a seamstress. And she worked so hard and raised three children. My older sister helped her so much and raised two boys. And we just were very close and - "}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 23, "text": "So you had to sing in between serving or sing while you were serving?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was about 15 when I first started. I started out as a singing waiter."}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 24, "text": "Were you still thinking of yourself as the clown when you were performing then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It was fun. It was almost Chaplinesque (ph), you know, because I had two Irish waiters. And they were great, jolly-type guys and always wanted to encourage me. And they'd - I'd get a request to sing"}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 25, "text": "Were there any singers in your family, professional singers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I just enjoyed it. I've found out that I've been very fortunate even before I was known to - internationally. I always had luck with audiences. Somehow or other, I always had a gift of communicati"}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 26, "text": "You had an uncle, I think, who was in vaudeville. Did your uncle's stories make you want to go into show business? Did it seem like fun to you?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. We're listening back to excerpts of our interviews with singer Tony Bennett. Five years ago, he was diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease, though h"}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 27, "text": "Well, how did telling you you had a rasp in your voice and therefore you'd never make it as a singer help you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, he was a wise - a very wise psychologist as far as I'm concerned because his name was Dick Gordon and - Dick Surace, but his stage name was Dick Gordon. And he was really my father, an"}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 28, "text": "Were you self-conscious about this thing that your father - your uncle had pointed out to you? Did you feel...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, John Barrymore once said the harder the slap, the greater the artist."}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 29, "text": "You were in the military in World War II.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely. I mean, I taught how to - Louis Bellson, the great drummer, you know, Pearl Bailey's husband, the late Pearl Bailey - you know, he kind of taught me how to breathe and - so that when I"}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 30, "text": "Did you sing with a band during that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was in the infantry, yes."}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 31, "text": "So as punishment, you were supposed to find the wounded and the dead and bury the dead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "After the war. I joined - there was a fantastic story, you know, about a Major Ledkoff (ph) who kind of saved me because a racial prejudice situation jumped off. And it was terrible in my life, and it"}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 32, "text": "How long did you have to do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 33, "text": "How do you think you were changed by that experience?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For two and a half weeks. It was horrible. You know, it's just a horrible thing in my life, and I've never gotten over it. And man's inhumanity, man, is very important to me personally."}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 34, "text": "You are really among the most respected singers today and certainly of your generation. And, I mean, among the things you're respected for is not only the beauty of your voice and the depth of your phrasing but also your repertoire, your choice of songs, your understanding of what makes a song good. In the '50s and '60s up until around 1965, you had so many records on the charts. You know, you were recording about three albums a year, and a lot of the singles were big hits on the charts. Your last chart hit was in 1965, \"If I Ruled The World.\" And after that, rock 'n' roll really took off, you know, monopolized the charts pretty much. What were those years in the latter part of the '60s like for you? Were you trying very hard to land something else on the charts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it definitely made me anti-war."}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 35, "text": "Or had you pretty much given up on that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 36, "text": "You are a singer who, it seems to me, keeps getting deeper into songs as you - the longer you sing...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I kind of walked away from it. I thought it was - I saw it as a fiasco. It became more and more Madison Avenue programming, you know, just a marketing thing. I've got this wonderful craving. You k"}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 37, "text": "...That your phrasing just seems to become - to have more emotional depth...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 38, "text": "...All the time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 39, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know why that happened? It's - I think I have the answer to that."}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 40, "text": "How do you think getting older is changing your voice? And if your voice is changing, how do you think that's changing how you approach a song and how you phrase the lyrics?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's so funny. When I used to sit around the house and watch my mom who just made one dress after another working on, you know, record-breaking time to make us - sew as many dresses as she can so she'"}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 41, "text": "I know you got to work with Bob Hope. Did you tour with him during wartime at any point?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Singer Tony Bennett is retiring from performing after eight decades. Let's listen to Terry's 1998 interview with him. Entertainer Bob Hope gave Bennett a big boost early in his care"}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 42, "text": "Bob Hope changed it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it was after the war. And for about five years, I was just looking around for work. And then Pearl Bailey heard me down in Greenwich Village. And she was working in the club, the Greenwich Village"}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 43, "text": "What do you think you learned from Bob Hope in terms of show business?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So it was a thrill. I've had that name ever since. And when I paint, it's Benedetto, my family name. And when I perform, it's Tony Bennett."}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 44, "text": "How do you do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "you know, just make sure that you show the people that you enjoy being there and you want to entertain them. And show them your enthusiasm."}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 45, "text": "When you first signed to Columbia Records, this was in the early 1950s. Frank Sinatra was still on the label. And he and Mitch Miller occasionally had feuds about repertoire. Did you get to know Frank Sinatra during that period? Did you see yourselves as friends or as rivals?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You psych yourself out, and you just do it. After a while, it becomes - you realize that it's the right way. And then you really mean it."}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 46, "text": "Do you feel that you learned things about singing from listening to Sinatra?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I didn't know him at all at that time. But then, what happened was I was very frightened. I was a young artist. And I got this wonderful opportunity. Perry Como had me do a summer replacement and "}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 47, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, well, you know, if you listen to one, it's thievery. But if you listen to everybody, it's research."}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 48, "text": "I want to pause here for some more music. And I think every time you've ever done FRESH AIR, I've managed to play something from one of the Tony Bennett-Bill Evans records. They're such extraordinary records. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I listened to Sinatra. I listened to Bing Crosby. I listened to Louis Armstrong. You know, a lot of girl singers taught me how to sing. Ella Fitzgerald and Sarah Vaughan and Carmen McRae. They're a"}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 49, "text": "...So I thought, this time around, we'd play \"Some Other Time.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 50, "text": "So let's hear that, and then we'll talk a little bit.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, good."}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 51, "text": "That's Tony Bennett and Bill Evans. And my guest is Tony Bennett. He has a new memoir, which is called \"The Good Life.\" In your memoir, you write a little bit about doing your two records with Bill Evans. And you loved working with him. And, God, these records are extraordinary. You say the problem, though, that you saw was - the depressing thing was watching how Bill Evans' drug habit interfered with his life. Did it interfere with his music, too, do you think? Did you feel it getting in the way at all of rehearsals or whatever?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Where has the time all gone to? Haven't done half the things we want to. Oh, well, we'll catch up some other time. This day was just a token. Too many words are still unspoken. Oh, well, we'"}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 52, "text": "Why do you think he said that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no. It didn't affect him at all in any way. He went past that. He hated being addicted. He hated it. I told him - I said, I guess you didn't get enough love when you were young. He said, oh, love."}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 53, "text": "I want to ask you about Duke Ellington. It seems like you had a really nice relationship with him. You say that he used to send you flowers after he wrote a new song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because he believed that that's the right way. He believed that that's what music's about. He believed that that's the road to correct music and correct living. Truth and beauty - you know, that's wha"}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 54, "text": "Why did he do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Every time he wrote a new song, he sent me flowers."}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 55, "text": "Did he want you to sing this song? Is that why he sent them to you? I'm sure he didn't send flowers to everyone he knew after he wrote a song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, 'cause he was a gentleman. It's old-fashioned, but it was correct. He was just courteous to people that he liked."}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 56, "text": "Would you choose an Ellington song that you recorded that you'd like us to play?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, he liked me, and we were close. Our families were close. And he was - oh, what a - he was another master, great master."}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 57, "text": "Good. Let's hear that. And this is Tony Bennett.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. \"Solitude\" is fine."}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 58, "text": "Did you have personal relationships with a lot of songwriters?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're listening back to Terry's 1998 interview with Tony Bennett. Last week it was announced he's retiring from performing. He's 95."}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 59, "text": "Did anybody write songs especially for you? I know you were often asked to be the first person to record a song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I did. Harold Arlen was my very favorite. And I never met Yip Harburg, but Harold Arlen told me that Yip Harburg was the best lyric writer that ever lived. And he wrote with everyone - Ira Gershw"}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 60, "text": "That's an interesting story. You want to tell it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Johnny Mercer wrote \"I Wanna Be Around\" for me."}
{"id": "1029662929", "date": "2021-08-20", "guest": "Tony Bennett", "title": "Tony Bennett Retires From Performing: Listen Back To His 'Fresh Air' Interviews", "question_index": 61, "text": "Well, let's hear it. This is \"I Wanna Be Around\" - Tony Bennett.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah. It's a wonderful story. You know, Sadie Vimmerstedt was a fan in Youngstown, Ohio. And she was an amateur songwriter. And she wrote, I want to be around to pick up the pieces when somebody"}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. One of my favorite things lately has been watching \"Schmigadoon!\", the series that is both a tribute to and a satire of musicals of the 1940s and early '50s, like \"Oklahoma,\" \"Carousel,\" \"The Sound Of Music,\" \"The Music Man,\" and, of course, \"Brigadoon.\" My guest, Cinco Paul, wrote all the songs. He also co-created and co-wrote the series. Along with his writing partner, Ken Daurio, he wrote the animated films \"Despicable Me,\" \"The Secret Life Of Pets\" and their Dr. Seuss adaptations \"Horton Hears A Who!\" and \"The Lorax.\" \"Schmigadoon!\" is streaming on Apple TV+. It stars Cecily Strong and Keegan-Michael Key as a couple who try to repair their relationship by taking a hike in the woods. They get lost in the woods, cross over a bridge, and suddenly they're in a small town called Schmigadoon that looks like a stage or movie set from the early 20th century. The women are wearing prairie dresses with long petticoats. The men are dressed like they're in a barbershop quartet. It turns out in this town, life is a musical, and it's a musical set at the turn of the century. People sing their feelings and dance, too. This is initially charming for the Cecily Strong character, but Keegan-Michael Key's character hates musicals. Soon, they realize they're trapped in this musical, and like it or not, their conversations will be interrupted by townspeople breaking out into song. In this scene, the couple has just entered Schmigadoon, and they are totally disoriented. Then the townspeople break out into song. See if you can recognize what inspired this song.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 1, "text": "Cinco Paul, welcome to FRESH AIR. Thank you so much for creating this series", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing, as characters) In Schmigadoon. Farmer McDonough craved a son..."}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 2, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing, as characters) In Schmigadoon. Farmer McDonough craved a son..."}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 3, "text": "How did you come up with the idea of a musical about people trapped in a musical set in the early 20th century?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", thank you for having me."}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 4, "text": "So the Cecily Strong character loves musicals. The Keegan-Michael Key character hates musicals. Why did you want him to hate musicals?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's kind of crazy. I had the idea for this almost 25 years ago, and it was while I was watching the movie \"An American Werewolf In London,\" of all things - one of my favorite movies. And it ope"}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 5, "text": "Oh, boy. You're trapped.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I thought it was really important. I mean, first of all, it's really funny to have someone who hates musicals be stuck in a musical, but also for him to be the eyes and ears of the people, unlik"}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 6, "text": "One of the things in some musicals is - the love affairs in some musicals, I think, would be considered pretty age-inappropriate now", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was not a fan. He's become a little more of a fan. And, you know, I wouldn't say my wife hates musicals, but she does not, you know, embrace them in the way that I do. So it was really important fo"}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 7, "text": ". Like, for example, \"The Sound Of Music,\" where, like, she's a young nun who's just left the convent, and she ends up, you know, falling in love with this kind of mean-spirited older man who, of course, becomes a much better human being as soon as he falls in love with her - this kind of, like, magical transformation. And \"South Pacific\" - there's a younger woman who ends up falling in love with an older man. I think you have a shout-out to that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was not a fan. He's become a little more of a fan. And, you know, I wouldn't say my wife hates musicals, but she does not, you know, embrace them in the way that I do. So it was really important fo"}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 8, "text": "And so is that one of the things you wanted to play with? And also, the idea that, like, love can totally transform a person into, you know - a kind of stern, rigid person into a much more loving, lovely person.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 9, "text": "Some musicals have really corny scenes in them. And the kind of scene that always bores me is the picnic scene where it's like, this was a real nice clambake; I'm really glad we came. It's like, can we skip that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And so we play with that trope, as well."}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 10, "text": "Can we skip that and get to the good stuff? And, you know, even, like, operas have, like, songs like that where there's, you know, like, a festival or, you know, a picnic or something. And, like, those are usually boring, too. And I never really understand the function that they serve. And you kind of have a song parodying that called \"Corn Puddin'.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And so we play with that trope, as well."}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 11, "text": "And so the reason why they're singing about corn pudding is it's their first morning in town and they're sitting on the porch and about to have breakfast and they're asked if they want some corn pudding, and they don't even know what corn pudding is. And then the town just starts singing about how great corn pudding is. So I'd like you to talk a little bit about what you think of those moments in musicals where you have to sing about food or a picnic or a clambake.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 12, "text": "And the waitress delivering the corn pudding is the younger woman who's pursuing him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The songs really should move the story forward in some way. And I think that the worst example is \"Shipoopi\" from \"Music Man,\" which is it brings everything to a grinding halt, and then this Marcellus"}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 13, "text": "Why don't we hear \"Corn Puddin'\"? And we'll also hear the Cecily Strong character kind of join in in a verse, much to the Keegan-Michael Key character's annoyance.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 14, "text": "CAST OF SCHMIGADOON!: (As characters, singing) My guy loves corn puddin'. I got the recipe. So if he wants my puddin', he'll have to marry me. Oh, he'll have to marry me. You put the corn in the puddin' and the puddin' in the bowl. You put the bowl in the belly 'cause it's good for the soul. You put the corn in the puddin' and the puddin' in the bowl. You put the bowl in the belly 'cause it's good for the soul. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character, singing) Who wants corn puddin'? CAST OF SCHMIGADOON!: (As characters, singing) We want corn puddin'. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character, singing) Who wants corn puddin'? CAST OF SCHMIGADOON!: (As characters, singing) We want corn puddin'.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 15, "text": "The music is kind of like a hoedown.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Melissa) OK, well, that one's on you. CAST OF SCHMIGADOON!: (As characters, singing) Corn puddin', corn puddin', corn puddin', corn puddin', corn puddin', corn puddin'."}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 16, "text": "It just reminded me, too, that when I was in school, we had to learn some of that kind of dancing - you know, like, square dancing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yeah. It's like, why are we learning this? We live in Brooklyn. Like, what are you thinking?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that was part of the curriculum somehow."}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 18, "text": "I like that idea of the square dancing lobby.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess it was more appropriate for me growing up in Phoenix. I wonder, is square dancing still taught in some schools? I feel like when my kids were little, they were still teaching square dancing. T"}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 19, "text": "OK. Let me reintroduce you here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Cinco Paul, and he co-created, co-wrote and then wrote all the songs for the satirical musical series \"Schmigadoon!\" which is now streaming on Apple TV+. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Cinco Paul. He co-created and co-wrote all the songs for the new series \"Schmigadoon!\" a loving satire of classic musicals from the '40s and early '50s, like \"Oklahoma!\" \"Carousel,\" \"The Music Man,\" \"The Sound Of Music,\" \"South Pacific\" and \"Brigadoon.\" He also co-wrote the animated films \"Despicable Me,\" \"The Secret Life Of Pets,\" \"Horton Hears A Who!\" and \"The Lorax.\" I want to get to another song. We all know that so many performers on Broadway historically have been gay, and it's only in recent years that they've been able to be out, and it's only recently that there are actually musicals about gay people who are out of the closet. So you have a few really funny references to, like, closeted gay people in musicals. One of the really funny songs - the mayor, who's played by Alan Cumming, is secretly gay, and it's a secret he's never disclosed to anybody. And he sings a song that kind of is a \"Secret Love\" kind of song that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 21, "text": "Because she has gaydar and no one in the town does.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, where he inadvertently reveals to Cecily's character that he's gay."}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 22, "text": "But the mayor's wife sings a song that's called \"He's A Queer One, That Man O' Mine.\" She has no clue that he's gay, but she knows that, you know, he's different from the other men. And usually in those songs, that's like, he's wonderful. He's so different from other men. But in this one, it's kind of like, hmm, he's so different than other men. I want you to talk about writing this 'cause this is an example of a song that I don't think closely adheres to another song. It's a kind of - there's references to other songs in it, including \"You're A Queer One, Julie Jordan\" from - that's from \"Carousel,\" right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, exactly."}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 23, "text": "Yeah. So - but talk about writing this and what you wanted to do with it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's from \"Carousel.\""}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 24, "text": "Yeah, he's great in it. So this starts - this clip will start with Cecily Strong speaking. And I should say that the mayor's last name is Menlove.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And for her, it's all these really positive qualities. But also, really, in many ways, the mayor's story is at the heart of the show 'cause he is one of these characters that, back in the day, could"}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 25, "text": "Another little clue. OK, so here's \"He's A Queer One.\" And this is Ann Harada singing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And for her, it's all these really positive qualities. But also, really, in many ways, the mayor's story is at the heart of the show 'cause he is one of these characters that, back in the day, could"}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 26, "text": "That's music from \"Schmigadoon!\" - the loving satire of '40s and early 1950s musicals. And my guest Cinco Paul co-created the series, co-wrote it and wrote all the songs. That's really - it's a funny song, but it's also - it's a lovely song. It's a nice melody.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Florence, singing) Sometimes it may seem like he is too good to be true, like there's a man that I can't see just aching to break through. I wish I could free him so I could finally see him the wa"}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 27, "text": "Well, let's take another break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Cinco Paul, and he co-wrote, co-created and wrote all the songs for the loving satire of musicals called \"Schmigadoon!\" that's now streaming on Apple TV+. And he also co-wrote the animated films \"Despicable Me,\" \"The Secret Life Of Pets,\" \"Horton Hears A Who!\" and \"The Lorax.\" We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, that was the intention. I never wanted the songs to be too jokey, if that makes sense. You know, I really wanted them - like, oh, that could genuinely have been a song sung in an undisco"}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 28, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Cinco Paul. He co-created, co-wrote and wrote all the songs for the new series \"Schmigadoon!\", which is a loving satire of classic musicals from the 1940s and early '50s, like \"Oklahoma!\", \"Carousel,\" \"The Music Man,\" \"The Sound Of Music,\" \"South Pacific\" and, of course, \"Brigadoon.\" He also co-wrote the animated films \"Despicable Me,\" \"The Secret Life Of Pets,\" \"Horton Hears A Who!\" and \"The Lorax.\" How were you first exposed to musicals? Like, where did you grow up? Did you see music theater? Was this all through movies?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As characters, singing) It's just a lovers' spat."}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 29, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I grew up in Phoenix, Ariz., so I didn't see a lot of shows live. But my mom really loved musicals. And she had cast recordings for - I specifically remember \"Camelot\" - you know, loving as a pretty y"}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 30, "text": "Did you want to continue in the musical community 'cause that's not the direction you went in until now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "on the piano. Please continue playing piano for us. But that's really where it deepened into something different. It became my community, you know?"}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 31, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "for a bunch of them. And so at some point, I realized, well, maybe that's not my thing. And then I was really interested in being a pop musician. You know, I'd always written songs from a pretty early"}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 32, "text": "Can you sing a few bars of one of your Elvis Costello-ish songs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "life was telling me that that's where I belonged. But - and then I - you know, life is just weird. You get - we make little choices, and it pulls you in different directions. And I got pulled into scr"}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 33, "text": "So you had a band?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my goodness. Let's see. (Singing) Of man's last mistake and woman's first hurt to the final heartache, from a fall to flirt - I won't forgive and forget anymore. Oh, my gosh. I haven't sung that s"}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "all my songs."}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 35, "text": "Now, we left something out of your music career, your early music career. You're a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter-day Saints (ph), which most people, I think, know as the Mormon Church. Your mother was a part of the church. Your father was Catholic, but not practicing. And you got baptized, I think, after - right before or right after graduating from Yale.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it wasn't a true band in the real sense. And then I just would do solo stuff, you know? I learned to play a bunch of instruments. And then I'd go into the recording studio and make albums. And real"}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 36, "text": "OK. And there was a musical celebrating the 150th anniversary of the church. And I think you wrote the songs for that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, right - yeah, right before I headed off to college."}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 37, "text": "Gosh. That's almost a little bit like \"Schmigadoon!\", where the modern and the past are colliding.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wrote everything. I wrote the book and the music and lyrics for that. It was about a modern girl and her great, great, great grandmother, who was a pioneer girl, who switch places."}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 38, "text": "So what was - was it a comedy? Or was it serious? Was it...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know. I feel like maybe I've been writing the same thing over and over my whole career."}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 39, "text": "But getting back to the musical that you did for the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter-day Saints, what was the reaction in the church to the musical?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "on stage. And we became friends. We formed a band. And then at some point I said, let's write a script together. And that changed everything."}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 40, "text": "Let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Cinco Paul. And he co-created, co-wrote and wrote all the songs for the new series \"Schmigadoon!,\" which is a loving satire of classic musicals from the '40s and early '50s. It's streaming on Apple TV+. He also co-wrote the animated films \"Despicable Me,\" \"The Secret Life Of Pets,\" \"Horton Hears A Who!\" and \"The Lorax.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And they did it again seven years later but haven't done it since then. It's just sort of been languishing."}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 41, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Cinco Paul, who co-created, co-wrote and wrote all the songs for the new satirical musical series \"Schmigadoon!\". And he also co-wrote the animated films \"Despicable Me,\" \"The Secret Life Of Pets,\" \"Horton Hears A Who!\" and \"The Lorax.\" So you and your writing partner, Ken Daurio, used to sing your pitches when you were pitching a film idea.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And they did it again seven years later but haven't done it since then. It's just sort of been languishing."}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 42, "text": "So please, you must sing one of your pitches.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 43, "text": "Can you give us an example?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". We would have been kicked out of everybody's office. But we would sing in our pitches, like, if there were a musical moment. And we would often put a musical moment in our stories. So it was a momen"}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 44, "text": "Let me ask you about \"Despicable Me.\" And this is a character who's competing to be the worst villain in the world. And he's not that great of a villain, really.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "in rehearsal during the actual pitch meeting. And we would play with each other in that way. There was a lot of improv, you know, in our pitches because we had a partner there. And so that's often how"}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 45, "text": "So he's going to try to steal the moon. And what he's done is, like, you know, he stole a replica of the Eiffel Tower and a replica...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "in rehearsal during the actual pitch meeting. And we would play with each other in that way. There was a lot of improv, you know, in our pitches because we had a partner there. And so that's often how"}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 46, "text": "...Of the Statue of Liberty. Yeah, a replica from Vegas, like a souvenir, basically. How did you come up with the idea for this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And the Statue of Liberty from Vegas."}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 47, "text": "And you created the minions, which are these, like, animated henchmen. Would you describe what they look like for anyone who hasn't seen the film?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the original idea came from a Spanish animator named Sergio Pablos, who had pitched Chris Meledandri the idea of a villain who adopted three little girls in order to pull off a heist. And so Chr"}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 48, "text": "Yeah, they kind of took over.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If there are people out there who have not, you know, been exposed to minions, you know, more power to you."}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 49, "text": "Was there a whole lot of minions merch?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They're like these little, yellow, pill-like creatures that have goggles on either their two or one single eyes. And they wear blue overalls. And really, I have to give up much of the credit for the m"}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 50, "text": "Does that make more money than the movie even does?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "to, you know, make toys or anything. They, like, tried everywhere. And no one was interested. And then suddenly, the movie came out and, you know, was a surprise hit. And the minions took off. And the"}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 51, "text": "You don't see the merch money?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know because, you know, we don't see any of that money in animation."}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 52, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 53, "text": "Why is that? Why aren't you in the Writers Guild?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We don't get residuals from the movies in animation. It's kind of a pet peeve of mine. And it's - I feel like it's unfair and not right because it takes as much work to write an animated movie - it ta"}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 54, "text": "Wow. That's just really shocking to me. I had no idea. Is that one of the reasons why you're kind of done for now with animation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a long story. But really, you know, when animation started out, they didn't have writers. And so it's never fallen under the auspices of the Writers Guild. There's people pushing for it and tryin"}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 55, "text": "What are some of the movies and some of the cartoons that you grew up with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not really 'cause - I know it sounds super corny, but it really was never about the money for me, you know? But for me, it was just - you know, we were doing all these sequels, and I just was not inte"}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 56, "text": "You love movies, and you and your writing partner, Ken Daurio, have a podcast. Is it still going on, your podcast?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The first cartoon I saw that really impacted me, I think, was \"The Jungle Book.\" I loved that movie so much, and the songs in that are so good. And then I have to say the Marx Brothers have played a h"}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 57, "text": "Then you have a couple episodes where you share your opinions of films of the '80s and films of the '90s. But I want to play the theme song from this because I think it's you and Ken actually singing the song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's called \"Make Him Watch It.\" And we make each other watch a movie we've never seen before."}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 58, "text": "Oh, you wrote the song. And so in the spirit of turning your life into a musical", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 59, "text": ", I just want to play the opening theme from your podcast, \"Make Him Watch It.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 60, "text": "KEN", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 61, "text": "I really love that. It's so, like, vaudeville era. Did you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Here's what we're going to do. We're going to make him watch it for a podcast. We can't wait to make him watch it - with Cinco and Ken."}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 62, "text": "How were you introduced to music of that period?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 63, "text": "Well, listen; congratulations on \"Schmigadoon!\" Please do a Season 2. And it's been great to talk with you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like, to be a 10- or 11-year-old kid obsessed with that sort of music was very odd. But I just - I loved it from an early age."}
{"id": "1030268798", "date": "2021-08-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' Co-Creator Says Series Was Inspired By A 'Love Affair' With Musicals", "question_index": 64, "text": "Cinco Paul wrote all the songs for the satirical musical series \"Schmigadoon!\" - which he also co-created and co-wrote. It's streaming on Apple TV+. After we take a short break, Justin Chang will review the new film \"CODA,\" about a teenage child of deaf parents co-starring Marlee Matlin as one of the parents. It won four awards at this year's virtual Sundance Film Festival. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "From your mouth to God's ears. Terry, I have to say, it is so meaningful to me that you like the show and that you responded to it like this. Thank you so much."}
{"id": "1031686849", "date": "2021-08-27", "guest": "Chuck Close", "title": "Remembering Acclaimed American Painter Chuck Close", "question_index": 0, "text": "Let's try to describe what's happening formally in your paintings. Your paintings are built not of, like, big elaborate brushstrokes, but of little dots or little circles. And it's the accumulation of all these dots or circles or squiggles, depending on the period that we're looking at, that kind of together add up to the larger structure of a face. But all the components are just really small dots or squiggles or bits of color.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University, in for Terry Gross. We're going to remember artist Chuck Close, who died last week at the age of 81. Regard"}
{"id": "1031686849", "date": "2021-08-27", "guest": "Chuck Close", "title": "Remembering Acclaimed American Painter Chuck Close", "question_index": 1, "text": "I want to talk a little bit more about the faces themselves, the way you paint the faces themselves. You've said that you try to see the faces neutrally without opinion or subjectivity, without editorializing in any way about the face. And yet the face always reads in some way to me. I see the faces very subjectively, even though you as the painter didn't see them", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's no there's no direct relationship between the photograph that I work from - the imagery that's embedded in that photograph - and the marks that occur on the canvas. It's a little bit like tran"}
{"id": "1031686849", "date": "2021-08-27", "guest": "Chuck Close", "title": "Remembering Acclaimed American Painter Chuck Close", "question_index": 2, "text": "subjectively. Talk with me about the approach that that you're taking to the subject matter of not kind of imposing any kind of feeling or point of view.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's no there's no direct relationship between the photograph that I work from - the imagery that's embedded in that photograph - and the marks that occur on the canvas. It's a little bit like tran"}
{"id": "1031686849", "date": "2021-08-27", "guest": "Chuck Close", "title": "Remembering Acclaimed American Painter Chuck Close", "question_index": 3, "text": "Your canvas is very large, and because you include every detail of a person's face, every line and wrinkle and pucker and pore, every flaw is included, or what we would consider a flaw is not only included, but it's kind of enlarged because the painting is so large. And that's part of what I find so fascinating. The faces are so real and recognizable. Looking at one of your faces in a painting, it's a lot like looking at yourself in the bathroom mirror with the kind of harsh lighting that you have there, and you see everything. So there's something so recognizable about the landscape of the faces, the way you paint them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's not that I'm uninterested in the psychological reading of the paintings. I just don't want to lobby for one reading over all others, and to present them straightforwardly and flatfootedly w"}
{"id": "1031686849", "date": "2021-08-27", "guest": "Chuck Close", "title": "Remembering Acclaimed American Painter Chuck Close", "question_index": 4, "text": "You know, we think of classical painters as having wanted to paint models who were beautiful. But it's not, you know, classic beauty that interests you in faces.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah, I - we don't stand close enough to each other. We don't invade each other's space enough to really be able to see the intimate level of detail that I typically put in one of these painting"}
{"id": "1031686849", "date": "2021-08-27", "guest": "Chuck Close", "title": "Remembering Acclaimed American Painter Chuck Close", "question_index": 5, "text": "I think you're looking for the fact of the face.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I, you know, I'm not looking for the grotesque or the ugly. I think..."}
{"id": "1031686849", "date": "2021-08-27", "guest": "Chuck Close", "title": "Remembering Acclaimed American Painter Chuck Close", "question_index": 6, "text": "I've read that you've had a learning disability that's affected your ability to actually recognize faces in real life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm looking for every man, every woman. I first painted my friends - usually, they're artists - because they were anonymous. And I didn't want, you know, Warhol was painting superstars and movie"}
{"id": "1031686849", "date": "2021-08-27", "guest": "Chuck Close", "title": "Remembering Acclaimed American Painter Chuck Close", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think I was probably driven to do what I do because I do have a great deal of difficulty recognizing faces. I have almost photographic vision for things that are two-dimensional, which is prob"}
{"id": "1031686849", "date": "2021-08-27", "guest": "Chuck Close", "title": "Remembering Acclaimed American Painter Chuck Close", "question_index": 8, "text": "So one of the reasons why you paint from photographs is because you recognize faces better in two dimensions than in three. So it's easier for you to use a picture than a model. Are there other reasons why you work from photographs for your painting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I'm in big trouble."}
{"id": "1031686849", "date": "2021-08-27", "guest": "Chuck Close", "title": "Remembering Acclaimed American Painter Chuck Close", "question_index": 9, "text": "Now, tell us a little bit about the way you work with grids when you're painting a face from a photograph.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. When you paint from life for an extended period of time - and my paintings have taken as long as 12 or 14 months and routinely now take three or four months each - if you work from life, the sub"}
{"id": "1031686849", "date": "2021-08-27", "guest": "Chuck Close", "title": "Remembering Acclaimed American Painter Chuck Close", "question_index": 10, "text": "Exactly. Right exactly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the use of a grid as a scaling-up method goes back to ancient Egypt and was, of course, used in the Renaissance and used all along as a way to take a small drawing or a preparatory sketch and en"}
{"id": "1031686849", "date": "2021-08-27", "guest": "Chuck Close", "title": "Remembering Acclaimed American Painter Chuck Close", "question_index": 11, "text": "So what suits your personality about working in these smaller units, one dot at a time or one grid at a time?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1998 interview with artist Chuck Close. He died last week at age 81. His giant paintings of faces were made up of smaller units of squiggles, circles and o"}
{"id": "1031686849", "date": "2021-08-27", "guest": "Chuck Close", "title": "Remembering Acclaimed American Painter Chuck Close", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, actually, I'm a nervous wreck."}
{"id": "1031686849", "date": "2021-08-27", "guest": "Chuck Close", "title": "Remembering Acclaimed American Painter Chuck Close", "question_index": 13, "text": "What's amazing is if you were the kind of painter who did canvases with big virtuoso brush strokes, you would have never been able to keep up with that once you lost your movement. But because you work in these small kind of dots or circles or squiggles and use those as building blocks, you're still, with that paintbrush strapped to your hand, able to do more or less the same style of painting that you did before.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm a slob. I'm - I have no patience. And I'm rather lazy. All of those things would seem to guarantee that I would not make work like I make. But I felt I didn't want to just go with my nature and sa"}
{"id": "1031686849", "date": "2021-08-27", "guest": "Chuck Close", "title": "Remembering Acclaimed American Painter Chuck Close", "question_index": 14, "text": "How do you think your style or your vision has changed in the nine years that you've been paralyzed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. I was lucky that the way I was working was ideally suited for the condition I found myself in. The one thing that I haven't been able to do - and it does bring me considerable upset - is that b"}
{"id": "1031686849", "date": "2021-08-27", "guest": "Chuck Close", "title": "Remembering Acclaimed American Painter Chuck Close", "question_index": 15, "text": "Because you don't have much movement now at all and you have to paint with the brushes strapped onto your wrist, have you given a lot of thought to how much painting is something that happens in your mind and how much is something that happens with your hands?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't think there's been much change at all. The one area in which there might be some change is that I think there - because I have so many more eggs in this basket, there are so many things "}
{"id": "1031686849", "date": "2021-08-27", "guest": "Chuck Close", "title": "Remembering Acclaimed American Painter Chuck Close", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I thought, gee, that's like something that came out of a fortune cookie or something."}
{"id": "1031686849", "date": "2021-08-27", "guest": "Chuck Close", "title": "Remembering Acclaimed American Painter Chuck Close", "question_index": 17, "text": "Chuck Close, a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was actually quite annoyed that they had this kind of throwaway answer for my very severe problem. But in fact, you know, they were right. Once you know what art looks like, you can figure out how t"}
{"id": "1031696650", "date": "2021-08-27", "guest": "Joe Galloway", "title": "Remembering Vietnam War Correspondent Joe Galloway", "question_index": 0, "text": "Joe Galloway, I'm going to ask you to describe what it was like to be on the ground in the middle of a battle in which there was rocket fire, bombs, cannons, ground artillery.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross. Former war correspondent Joe Galloway, the only civilian awarded a Medal of Valor by the Army for combat action in the Vietnam War, died las"}
{"id": "1031696650", "date": "2021-08-27", "guest": "Joe Galloway", "title": "Remembering Vietnam War Correspondent Joe Galloway", "question_index": 1, "text": "What did you shoot?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This was shocking. This was overwhelming noise. You couldn't hear yourself think. The second morning, the enemy launched a major attack on the southeast side of this little football-sized clearing. An"}
{"id": "1031696650", "date": "2021-08-27", "guest": "Joe Galloway", "title": "Remembering Vietnam War Correspondent Joe Galloway", "question_index": 2, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was carrying a Nikon camera and an M16 rifle."}
{"id": "1031696650", "date": "2021-08-27", "guest": "Joe Galloway", "title": "Remembering Vietnam War Correspondent Joe Galloway", "question_index": 3, "text": "Did your pictures turn out from the battle?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And on occasion, I used them both."}
{"id": "1031696650", "date": "2021-08-27", "guest": "Joe Galloway", "title": "Remembering Vietnam War Correspondent Joe Galloway", "question_index": 4, "text": "Now, this battle lasted four days and four nights. Did you get any sleep at all, either of you, during the length of the battle?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The pictures were - for somebody who was as scared as I was, they weren't too bad."}
{"id": "1031696650", "date": "2021-08-27", "guest": "Joe Galloway", "title": "Remembering Vietnam War Correspondent Joe Galloway", "question_index": 5, "text": "Did you carry the wounded?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sleep sort of leaves your mind. I had been on the perimeter with one of Colonel Moore's - his Bravo Company. And that was foxholes and alarms all night and 100% alert, so I got no sleep that night. An"}
{"id": "1031696650", "date": "2021-08-27", "guest": "Joe Galloway", "title": "Remembering Vietnam War Correspondent Joe Galloway", "question_index": 6, "text": "I'd like to ask you if, during the battle, when you probably thought there was a good chance you would die, if you made any bargains with God or made any promises about what you would do if you did live?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. I did. The one memory that will never leave my mind is what they call a friendly fire incident that occurred on the second day. And we were around the command post, and someone said, my God, lo"}
{"id": "1031696650", "date": "2021-08-27", "guest": "Joe Galloway", "title": "Remembering Vietnam War Correspondent Joe Galloway", "question_index": 7, "text": "I want to ask you about your experiences in Vietnam for a moment. You were the only civilian decorated during that war. What did you do to be decorated?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's listen now to an excerpt of Terry's 2003 interview with Joe Galloway, who died last week at age 79. Back in 2003, he was military affairs correspondent for Knight Ridder Newsp"}
{"id": "1031696650", "date": "2021-08-27", "guest": "Joe Galloway", "title": "Remembering Vietnam War Correspondent Joe Galloway", "question_index": 8, "text": "Some of the embedded reporters that you're working with, for them, this is their first war. Did they ask for your advice about whether they should whether they should come to the rescue or whether they should just kind of hang back and be the observer reporter?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I belatedly was given a Bronze Star with V, the only one the Army gave a civilian during the entire war, for rescuing a wounded soldier during the Battle of Landing Zone X-Ray, an event that, in"}
{"id": "1031696650", "date": "2021-08-27", "guest": "Joe Galloway", "title": "Remembering Vietnam War Correspondent Joe Galloway", "question_index": 9, "text": "You actually carried a gun during part of the Vietnam War. What led you to arm yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I wrote a three-page memo to all of them with basically commonsense advice on what to carry and how to conduct yourself and what you do if there's a sudden attack. And I concluded that by te"}
{"id": "1031696650", "date": "2021-08-27", "guest": "Joe Galloway", "title": "Remembering Vietnam War Correspondent Joe Galloway", "question_index": 10, "text": "What did you use it for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I - what led me to arm myself was experience. I had been inside the special forces camp at Plei Me in October 1965, when it was under siege from a regiment of North Vietnamese. It was a very clo"}
{"id": "1031696650", "date": "2021-08-27", "guest": "Joe Galloway", "title": "Remembering Vietnam War Correspondent Joe Galloway", "question_index": 11, "text": "What was the circumstance?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And only in the direst of circumstances."}
{"id": "1031696650", "date": "2021-08-27", "guest": "Joe Galloway", "title": "Remembering Vietnam War Correspondent Joe Galloway", "question_index": 12, "text": "So you shot?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we were seemingly about to be overrun by the enemy. And I thought that I had no choice for my own safety and survival - and the survival of those around me."}
{"id": "1031696650", "date": "2021-08-27", "guest": "Joe Galloway", "title": "Remembering Vietnam War Correspondent Joe Galloway", "question_index": 13, "text": "How would you feel - yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did."}
{"id": "1031696650", "date": "2021-08-27", "guest": "Joe Galloway", "title": "Remembering Vietnam War Correspondent Joe Galloway", "question_index": 14, "text": "Now, what about the embedded reporters that you're working with, would you want them to be there for urban warfare if it comes to that? Or do you think it's too dangerous and that they should get out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And no apologies."}
{"id": "1031696650", "date": "2021-08-27", "guest": "Joe Galloway", "title": "Remembering Vietnam War Correspondent Joe Galloway", "question_index": 15, "text": "Thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I think if you have gone with the unit to the gates of the thing and they are going in, you should go with them. It'll be - you know, the risks increase very greatly. But you signed on knowing tha"}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Soul music is at the center of two popular movies from this summer, Questlove's documentary \"Summer Of Soul\" and the Aretha Franklin biopic \"Respect.\" We're going to close the summer with a series of interviews from our archive with musicians represented in those films. From \"Summer Of Soul,\" We'll hear from Gladys Knight, Mavis Staples, B.B. King, Hugh Masekela, Abbey Lincoln, Max Roach and Questlove. Today, my interviews with Aretha Franklin, Jerry Wexler - her producer at Atlantic Records - and Dan Penn, who co-wrote her hit \"Do Right Woman.\" We'll start with my 1999 interview with Aretha.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 1, "text": "The Queen of Soul got her start in the Baptist church. Her father, Reverend C.L. Franklin, was a famous preacher. Aretha went on to receive many awards. She was the first woman inducted into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. She won 18 Grammys and was nominated 44 times. She received a National Medal of the Arts in 1999 and the Presidential Medal of Freedom in 2005. She sang at President Obama's first inauguration. We spoke after the publication of her autobiography, \"Aretha: From These Roots.\" She seldom gave interviews, so we were thrilled to have her on our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Baby, baby, sweet baby. There's something that I just got to say."}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 2, "text": "Before you sang soul music, you sang gospel in the church. I imagine gospel was more than just music to you. Can you talk a little bit about, you know, feeling the spirit when you sang?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Baby, baby, sweet baby. There's something that I just got to say."}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 3, "text": "I'd like to play a recording that was made of you at the age of 14 singing in the church in which your father was pastor, the New Bethel Church in Detroit.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Certainly gospel was my background, is my background. My upbringing was in the church. We had to attend regularly. And of course, the church provided a training ground for me, so to speak, as a young "}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 4, "text": "And this is a recording of Precious Lord. The version we're going to hear was made in 1956. This is the young 14-year-old Aretha Franklin.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, New Bethel Baptist Church."}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 5, "text": "That's the young Aretha Franklin. Let's talk a little bit about the influences on you during your formative years. First of all, let's talk a little bit about your father, the Reverend C.L. Franklin. He was one of the most popular preachers of his generation. He was nationally known through his tours and through, I think, radio broadcasts as well as recordings. You say in the book that church nurses carried smelling salts to revive worshippers who were overcome to the point of fainting by the spirit or by your father's sermons. What was it like for you to watch your father speak and people fainting in church?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) When my, when my way goes dreary. Precious Lord, please linger near. And, oh, when my, when my life is almost, almost gone, father, father, father, hear my cry, Lord. And, oh, hear my call."}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 6, "text": "You toured with your father through churches through the Deep South. And I'm wondering what it was like for you during the days of segregation to tour through the Deep South, you know, how that compared to what you were used to in Detroit.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was tremendous. I loved going to church. I enjoyed being a part of the choir and just doing things in and around the church. But as a young girl, I certainly enjoyed watching and listening to"}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 7, "text": "You say about your father he was a minister, he was also a man, and that some women pursued him aggressively night and day.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it certainly was not what I was used to or accustomed to in Detroit. But on the other hand, it was not that bad. We didn't have extreme experiences of any kind. But there were times that we were"}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 8, "text": "So he wasn't uncomfortable with that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They did."}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 9, "text": "I thought I'd play an excerpt from what is perhaps his most famous recorded sermon, The Eagle Stirreth. Since we'll only be hearing an excerpt just to get a sense of his style of preaching, can you tell us a little bit about what the sermon was actually about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have no idea. I never discussed it with him. And he never discussed that sort of thing with his children. But as children, we could certainly see that women were kind of aggressively taking off behi"}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 10, "text": "My guest is Aretha Franklin. Let's hear an excerpt of a sermon preached by her father, Reverend C.L. Franklin.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Having to do, as I equate it, to life, to children, to the parental function in the raising of one's children. And in certain other ways, there are parallels to your personal life."}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 11, "text": "That's Aretha Franklin's late father, Reverend C.L. Franklin. Many singers who grew up in the church weren't allowed by their parents to listen to or to perform pop music. It wasn't that way in your family. What did your father think about pop music and jazz?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, he will. He's going to rise up on the pinion of his wings, yeah, one of these days, one of these days. My soul is an eagle in the cage that the Lord had made for me. My soul, my soul, my soul is "}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, as you describe in your new autobiography, great performers like Nat Cole and Art Tatum knew your father and would sometimes be in your living room at the piano. That must've been something.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My dad, I think, appreciated gifted artists. We just didn't have that problem in our home, and he never tried to limit us in any way with respect to music or anything like that."}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 13, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded in 1999 with Aretha Franklin. We'll hear more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that's true. Art Tatum was often a visitor in our home. He was a very good friend of my dad's - Oscar Peterson and Arthur Prysock, Mahalia Jackson, of course James. And he loved Sam - Sam Cooke. "}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the 1999 interview I recorded with Aretha Franklin.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that's true. Art Tatum was often a visitor in our home. He was a very good friend of my dad's - Oscar Peterson and Arthur Prysock, Mahalia Jackson, of course James. And he loved Sam - Sam Cooke. "}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well, you were living in Detroit, so when you decided to make pop records, I mean, the obvious choice, I suppose, would've been Motown, especially since Berry Gordy was a friend of the family. I guess Motown was a very new label at the time, but did you consider Motown?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that's true. Art Tatum was often a visitor in our home. He was a very good friend of my dad's - Oscar Peterson and Arthur Prysock, Mahalia Jackson, of course James. And he loved Sam - Sam Cooke. "}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, you were signed at Columbia by John Hammond, who had earlier signed Count Basie and later signed Bob Dylan and Bruce Springsteen. Well, I want to play the first track that you recorded with John Hammond, and it's \"Today I Sing The Blues.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, no, I really did not. My dad and I had talked about it, and we really kind of had our sights set on Columbia Records out of New York. We knew that Columbia was a worldwide label. And I think"}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 17, "text": "Now, you were playing a lot of clubs during those early years, and a lot of those clubs were jazz clubs. And the people who you shared a bill with included John Coltrane and Charles Mingus. Was this a new kind of music for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Without a word of warning, the blues walked in this morning and circled 'round my lonely room. I didn't know why I had that sad and lonely feeling until my baby called and said we're through"}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 18, "text": "What was different about the jazz environment? What was - what were some of the things you hadn't been exposed to before?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not exactly a new kind of music. As a very small girl, I listened to Charlie Parker and loved him and Max Roach and people like that. I had not been in the jazz environment, having been brought up in "}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 19, "text": "Sounds like Mingus.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 20, "text": "In 1966 after your contract with Columbia Records was up, you moved to Atlantic Records, which was the home of rhythm and blues greats like Ruth Brown and Ray Charles, LaVern Baker, the Drifters, the Clovers. How did you end up at Atlantic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sitting in the audience then - this was at the Village Gate. And he kept right on playing. You know, nobody missed a beat."}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We got a call - my former husband Ted White got a call from Jerry Wexler that they were interested in talking to and signing me at Atlantic Records. And we went over, and we sat and we talked to Jerry"}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 22, "text": "Your sound really changed at Atlantic, and so did your material. Did he sit you down before you started recording and say, this is what I see for you; this is what I hear?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, of course, the rest is history."}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 23, "text": "For your first Atlantic recording session, the producer, Jerry Wexler, took you down to a studio in Muscle Shoals, Ala., that was famous for its great session men, which included Dan Penn and Spooner Oldham. And the first song that you recorded there was \"I Never Loved A Man.\" Now, Spooner Oldham tells a story that when he heard you sit down at the piano and play your first chord, he thought, wow, that's really great and that he, who - and he's a pianist - that he shouldn't - he should let you play piano while he moved over to electric piano, playing behind you. What'd you think of that arrangement? Were you pleased that he agreed that you should be the one at the piano?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, he did. Actually, where I had been in the booth most of the time at Columbia and not at the piano, Jerry asked me to sit down and accompany myself. And that is where my career really took a drast"}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 24, "text": "Well, Peter Guralnick, the music critic, describes this recording, \"I Never Loved A Man,\" as one of the most momentous takes in the history of rhythm and blues - in fact, in the history of American vernacular music. Let's hear it. This is my guest, Aretha Franklin.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I remember that particular session. It was the very first session. So naturally, yes, I remember it. And we really were kind of struggling at that point to get to the music. It just wasn't quite comin"}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 25, "text": "My interview with Aretha Franklin was recorded in 1999. She's portrayed by Jennifer Hudson in the new biopic \"Respect.\" Coming up from our archive, Jerry Wexler, who produced Aretha's hits at Atlantic Records, talks about the sometimes-tumultuous recording session in Muscle Shoals, Ala., where Aretha recorded her first hits, and Dan Penn, who was at that session, talks about co-writing Aretha's hit \"Do Right Woman.\" And later, Aretha will tell the story behind the sock-it-to-me's in her hit \"Respect.\" I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You're a no-good heartbreaker. You're a liar, and you're a cheat. And I don't know why I let you do these things to me. My friends keep telling me that you ain't no good. But, oh, they don't"}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Today's show is dedicated to Aretha Franklin. When Columbia Records signed Aretha in 1960, the label saw her as a potential jazz star. But she never broke through. In 1967, she started recording for the Atlantic label with producer Jerry Wexler, who was a partner at the label. His specialty was finding great singers and matching them with the right band and backup singers to create a sound that was both artistically true and commercially successful. He let Aretha write her own songs, play piano and use her sisters as backup singers. Some of the greatest soul and rhythm and blues recordings wouldn't have been made if it weren't for Jerry Wexler. The short list of other people he worked with includes the Drifters, Ray Charles, Bob Dylan, Wilson Pickett, Otis Redding, Etta James and Solomon Burke. Wexler died in 2008. I spoke with him in 1993 in front of an audience at a public radio conference in Washington, D.C. He'd written a new memoir called \"Rhythm And The Blues.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Don't you never, never say that we're through 'cause I ain't never, never, never - no, no - loved a man the way that I love you. I can't sleep at night. And I can't even fight. I guess I'll "}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 27, "text": "Jerry Wexler, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Don't you never, never say that we're through 'cause I ain't never, never, never - no, no - loved a man the way that I love you. I can't sleep at night. And I can't even fight. I guess I'll "}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 28, "text": "I want to get started with your work with Aretha Franklin. I think that's a good place to start. Now, she had made about - oh, I don't know - ten or so recordings on Columbia Records before coming to Atlantic.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's great to be here to plug my book."}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 29, "text": "John Hammond produced her. And he was producing her like a jazz singer, kind of in the Dinah Washington tradition.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 30, "text": "You - when she came to Atlantic, you worked with her. You heard something completely different. What did you hear when you started producing her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 31, "text": "Well, you sat her down at the piano.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I heard the Aretha Franklin who sang in church, who sang \"Precious Lord\" when she was 13 years old. And a man in the audience was so overcome, he said, listen at her, listen at her. And I listen"}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 32, "text": "You had her play herself, which I don't think she'd done on the records before that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 33, "text": "What was it like at Muscle Shoals? What did you hear there in that Southern sound that you wanted?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not very much."}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 34, "text": "So you took Aretha down to Muscle Shoals, recorded, like, a track and a half with her. And there was this really big fight. What was the fight about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was the way they recorded, which was ad lib recording without written arrangements, building the song from the get-go, just from the chords. And the musicians made a fabulous contribution. So"}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 35, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it had to do with Ted White, who was Aretha's husband at the time, who got into an dangerous, over-friendly, drinking from the same jug with a gentleman who could best be described as a card-carry"}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 36, "text": "Not even vocal.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 37, "text": "You produced \"Respect.\" Is there a story behind how the sock-it-to-mes landed on there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No vocal. No piano. No background vocal. And then we finished by bringing Aretha and her sisters into the studio. And it was a pretty good piece of extemporization in that, starting with this very min"}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 38, "text": "Now, your first studio was actually the office...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Transmutation of Otis Redding's little Southern song. As a matter of fact, I was mixing the record in our studio on Broadway. And Otis walked in. He said, that little gal done took my song. But he "}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 39, "text": "...Of Atlantic Records.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 40, "text": "Who did you - because when Atlantic was young, you didn't have a studio. So what would you do? You'd move out the chairs into the hallway whenever you wanted to record?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 41, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we did have a studio, it was our office. And it was a studio because we had equipment in it."}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 42, "text": "You worked with Otis Redding a lot during his career.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And my partner, Ahmet Ertegun, and I shared this big room. We had two desks that were catty-cornered, cantered toward each other. And what we would do is push them against the wall, stack them. And th"}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 43, "text": "Now, you saw him change a lot as he became better known.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I was not Otis' producer. I want you to realize that. Otis was produced at Stax Records in Memphis by that great team of Jim Stewart and Booker T and the MG's, especially Steve Cropper."}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 44, "text": "What was he like in the beginning before he was very famous? What was he like onstage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes."}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 45, "text": "That's really great. Now, you know, we were talking before how you brought Aretha Franklin down to Muscle Shoals, Ala. You brought Wilson Pickett down to Memphis to record. Right. You really love that Southern sound that was coming out of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Who used to be described as a stage full of Jackie Wilson."}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 46, "text": "...Some of the bands there. Why'd you think of bringing him there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 47, "text": "My interview with Jerry Wexler was recorded in 1993 at the Public Radio Conference in Washington, D.C. He died in 2008. In the new Aretha biopic \"Respect,\" he's played by Marc Maron. Coming up, my interview with songwriter and studio musician Dan Penn, who wrote many of the soul hits of the '60s, including Aretha's hit \"Do Right Woman, Do Right Man.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And this Southern style of recording where it's just - all you have is chord indications. You go out, you sing a lick, do it it like this, fellows. Bang, here's the new chord, you know. But maybe that"}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 48, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. One of the hits that came out of Aretha Franklin's first recording session for Atlantic Records was this classic.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And this Southern style of recording where it's just - all you have is chord indications. You go out, you sing a lick, do it it like this, fellows. Bang, here's the new chord, you know. But maybe that"}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 49, "text": "\"Do Right Woman\" was co-written by Dan Penn, one of the key behind-the-scenes figures in '60s soul music as a songwriter and sometimes session guitarist in Muscle Shoals, Ala., where Aretha recorded her first hits and in Memphis. Some of the other songs he co-wrote include \"I'm Your Puppet,\" \"The Dark End Of The Street\" and \"Cry Like A Baby.\" Otis Redding, Percy Sledge, Solomon Burke and Arthur Alexander are among the singers who did his songs. When I spoke with Dan Penn in 1994, he'd just released a CD in which he sang his versions of some of his best known songs, including \"Do Right Woman, Do Right Man.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Take me to heart and I'll always love you. And nobody can make me do wrong. Take me for granted..."}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 50, "text": "When Jerry Wexler took Aretha to record in Muscle Shoals, Ala., Dan Penn and his co-writer on \"Do Right Woman,\" Chips Moman, gave Aretha that song to record.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Yeah, yeah. They say that it's a man's world, but honey, you can't prove that by me. And as long as we're together, baby, show some respect for me. If you want a do-right-all-day woman, you'"}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 51, "text": "Now, the way the story as I've read it goes about the session in which Aretha recorded your song, \"Do Right Woman,\" was that it was a disaster at first.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Jerry loved it. Aretha heard it. She liked it. But they both said it doesn't have a bridge. It needs a bridge. And I agreed. So we headed for the closet, three of us, while the band was learning it. A"}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 52, "text": "You grew up in Vernon, Ala., which is about 80 miles south of Muscle Shoals. Alabama was very segregated when you were growing up. So what was it like for you when you started working with Black artists and becoming part of Black culture? Was it all very different to you? Were you ever uncomfortable around Black culture or did you feel very comfortable right from the start?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It wasn't a disaster at first. It was a disaster later. But at first, it was a wonderful session because they cut \"I Never Loved A Man.\" And it came off - well, you know, you heard it. It came off gre"}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 53, "text": "Until what was over, soul music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I felt comfortable right from the start, and I stayed comfortable right up until, well, until it was over."}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 54, "text": "What changed for you when Martin Luther King was killed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, you know. I think when they killed Martin Luther King, it was over."}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 55, "text": "Were there people who you'd been very close with musically who you weren't able to work with anymore?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what changed for me was, you know, the Black folks didn't want to make records with white people anymore. And so since I was white, it kind of cut me out. And when we found that out, you know, w"}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 56, "text": "In the days before the King assassination, were you ever self-conscious about being a white songwriter in soul music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. It wasn't like that. It was just like an invisible line, a curtain was drawn across the color line as far as recording. I mean, it's something you felt. It's something you knew."}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 57, "text": "You worked at studios in Muscle Shoals, Ala., and in Memphis. Was there a difference in the sound at both of those studios?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you knew you were, but I wasn't alone. I mean, there's Cropper and, you know, all these other cats - Chips and Spooner and you name it. I mean, you know, Carole King, I mean, they were all aroun"}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 58, "text": "Well, thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it was different, subtle differences. Oh, I always say this - the air. But I guess it's everything that's there. You know, I may not - I worked in Muscle Shoals at Fame. It had this really great "}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 59, "text": "My interview with Dan Penn was recorded in 1994. His latest album, a collection of new songs, was released last year. It's called \"Living On Mercy.\" Coming up, more of my interview with Aretha in which he talks about recording \"Respect.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right. Thank you."}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 60, "text": "Now, your second single was respect, which is, I believe, your still most-requested song. How did you end up singing this Otis Redding song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Today's show is dedicated to Aretha Franklin, the subject of the new biopic \"Respect\" starring Jennifer Hudson as Aretha. We'll end today's show with more of my 1999 interview with "}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 61, "text": "Let's hear Aretha Franklin singing \"Respect.\" What did this song mean to you when you sang it? I mean, really, part of the backdrop of this song - it was a hit during the civil rights movement. And I think, you know, \"Respect\" had a lot of meanings in the song for your listeners, one was, you know, just the respect you wanted from a man in a relationship. But it also had, I think, a larger resonance with the civil rights movement, you know, a kind of larger, social, cultural sense of respect.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I heard Mr. Redding's version of it. I just loved it. I decided that I wanted to record it. And my sister Carolyn and I got together. I was living in a small apartment on the west side of Detroi"}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 62, "text": "You know, as we mentioned, the song, I think, resonated with the civil rights movement. Your family was good friends with Martin Luther King. How well did you know Dr. King?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. In later times it was picked up as a battle cry by the civil rights movement. But when I recorded it, it was pretty much a male-female kind thing and more in a general sense, from person to perso"}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 63, "text": "Aretha Franklin, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Dr. King was a family friend and a very good friend of my dad's. And occasionally, he would come to Detroit and spend time in our home or at our church, at my dad's church. I went out in the early day"}
{"id": "1032821676", "date": "2021-08-31", "guest": "Aretha Franklin", "title": "'Fresh Air' Pays Respect To Aretha Franklin, The Queen Of Soul", "question_index": 64, "text": "My interview with Aretha Franklin was recorded in 1999. If you want to see how Jennifer Hudson portrays Aretha, check out the new biopic \"Respect.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we begin our Summer of Soul series with interviews from our archive highlighting some of the singers and musicians featured in \"Summer Of Soul,\" this summer's documentary about the 1969 Harlem Cultural Festival. The film showcases performances from the festival, along with new interviews about how the festival reflected changes in Black music and culture. Over the next few days, we'll hear from Gladys Knight, Mavis Staples, B.B. King, Hugh Masekela, Max Roach and Abbey Lincoln. Tomorrow, we'll hear from the film's director Ahmir Questlove Thompson, founder of the band The Roots, which is the house band for \"The Tonight Show.\" He's also famous for his almost encyclopedic knowledge of soul, R&B, hip-hop and pop. I hope you'll join us. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. It's been my pleasure. And thank you so much for having me."}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Ahmir \"Questlove\" Thompson, has made his directorial debut with the new documentary \"Summer Of Soul.\" Questlove co-founded The Roots, which is, among other things, the house band for \"The Tonight Show,\" where Questlove serves as the music director. He describes his new film as his chance to restore history. The historic-but-forgotten event the film documents is the 1969 Harlem Cultural Festival, a series of six concerts held in Harlem's Mount Morris Park, which is now called Marcus Garvey Park. It was free and open to the public. And tens of thousands of people attended, mostly Black and brown. The roster of performers representing different strains of Black and Latino music included Stevie Wonder, Sly and the Family Stone, Nina Simone, B.B. King, Gladys Knight and the Pips, The 5th Dimension, The Staple Singers, Mahalia Jackson, Ray Barretto, Max Roach and Abbey Lincoln. The festival was one year after the assassination of Martin Luther King, during the period of the Black Power movement. The concerts spanned from June 29 to August 24, overlapping with both the Woodstock Festival and the first moonwalk. About 40 hours of performances were recorded on video by Hal Tulchin. A couple of hours were shown on local TV in New York. But Tulchin was unable to produce it into a film or TV series in spite of trying for years to attract funders. The tape sat in his basement for about 50 years. Just before his death, he signed over the rights to two producers, who brought on Questlove to turn it into the film that is now \"Summer Of Soul.\" Questlove wrote about the period in Black music just after the festival in his book about \"Soul Train.\" He has a new book that will be published in the fall called \"Music Is History,\" focusing on 1971 to the present. Questlove, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Congratulations on the film.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 1, "text": "It's so great to be able to see this. I mean, it really is a historic document. Now, I'd like to start with a clip of Gladys Knight performing at the festival. And I think this is one of the real standout performances in the movie. And so we'll also hear a little voice-over in this, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 2, "text": "GLADYS", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 3, "text": "So, you know, Gladys Knight says in the film that she wasn't expecting such a big crowd. And she seems like so happy to be there. And I think really probably no one knew what to expect. And you probably didn't know what to expect when you started looking at the many hours of video. So when you first started watching these approximately 40 hours of concert footage, what did you find most surprising or most exciting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Gladys Knight was everything to us. She was the Queen of Soul. She gave it to us good. And the Pips were working."}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 4, "text": "Had there been a concert series like this before with tens of thousands of people, Black people and people of color in a Black neighborhood, like Harlem, before?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would say probably the Sly and the Family Stone performance is probably the most shocking to watch at the time, because, you know, up until that point, Black entertainers were hyper-aware of their p"}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 5, "text": "The festival seemed to mean a lot to the people performing at it. You know, like, Gladys Knight seems, like, so surprised that there's such a big crowd. And The 5th Dimension is featured there. And I want to play a little bit of that because, you know, Marilyn McCoo just seems - and she's like the lead singer of the group - she just seems - you film her watching the video of her performance then, and she talks about how important it was for them to perform in front of a Black audience. A lot of people thought they were white because they were considered very middle-of-the-road, songs like \"Up, Up And Away.\" So I want to play an excerpt of their performance - of The 5th Dimension's performance - at the Harlem Cultural Festival. And mixed in this will be a clip of of Marilyn McCoo watching The 5th Dimension perform in 1969.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Besides the previous two Harlem Cultural Festival events, which wasn't hardly the size magnitude of the one that happened at Mount Morris Park, I believe that that answer would be no. I do know that t"}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 6, "text": "THE 5TH", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Besides the previous two Harlem Cultural Festival events, which wasn't hardly the size magnitude of the one that happened at Mount Morris Park, I believe that that answer would be no. I do know that t"}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 7, "text": "So that was Marilyn McCoo and Billy Davis speaking over their performance - over The 5th Dimension's performance of \"The Age Of Aquarius,\" which was a big hit for them. I had no idea that they had been confused for white, that they felt so bad about not getting recognition from Black audiences. It was very moving to see the significance that this had for her and for Billy Davis. And it just made me think about what it meant to the performers, you know, to be at the festival. Did you play the tape back for all the performers to get their reaction?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Come on."}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 8, "text": "Questlove, for you, when you're playing for different audiences, you're doing that in part because you love so many different kinds of music. And you're so, like, musically knowledgeable and versatile. And people from all different kinds of music love you and want you to be on the same bill or to perform with you to back them up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Pretty much, you know, a lot of it was just to jog their memory. That particular moment that we just saw with Marilyn McCoo, I realized something. You know, it was sort of an unplanned question, and I"}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 9, "text": "So do you think of that as code switching or as just, like, being loved by different audiences?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, in my heart, at the age of 50, I could say that I genuinely love every type of music you ever present to me. But I knew early that my survival in whatever world that I create really depends on my"}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 11, "text": "Oh, sure. Yeah, no, of course. Because you have to know so many different kinds of music to be...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Of Phil Collins or Thomas Dolby. You know, and I go through that in my book. Like, it's just sitting there just waiting for Michael Jackson to come on. And suddenly, all this other music is seeping"}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 12, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Questlove. The new documentary he directed is called \"Summer Of Soul.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You have to know everything."}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Ahmir \"Questlove\" Thompson. He co-founded the band The Roots, which is the house band for \"The Tonight Show,\" where he serves as music director. He directed the new concert documentary, \"The Summer Of Soul,\" which features performances from and interviews about the 1969 Harlem Cultural Festival, which presented top performers including Stevie Wonder, Sly and the Family Stone, Nina Simone, Gladys Knight and the Pips, B.B. King, Mahalia Jackson, the Staple Singers, Max Roach and Abbey Lincoln. So Tony Lawrence, he was the host of the festival, but also the producer of it. And he's the one who got everybody to sign on. I'm wondering, like, how did he do that? I mean, he was not, like, a big-name producer. The previous couple of Harlem Cultural Festivals were pretty small. They were nothing like this. So how do you get B.B. King? How do you get Gladys Knight? How do you get Stevie Wonder to sign onto this? Like, what did he promised them? And did he deliver?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You have to know everything."}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 14, "text": "Yeah. You're a dreamer when it works out, you're a hustler when it doesn't", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Probably the most distinct way that I could describe it - if you're at all familiar with, like, Adam Sandler's character in \"Uncut Gems,\" which is the bad version of this hustler, but it's almost like"}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 15, "text": ". So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Probably the most distinct way that I could describe it - if you're at all familiar with, like, Adam Sandler's character in \"Uncut Gems,\" which is the bad version of this hustler, but it's almost like"}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 16, "text": "Do you know if he delivered on his promises? Did he pay people on time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exact - you're perfect."}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 17, "text": "No. Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 18, "text": "Oh, still", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm like, I wouldn't even pay that to my opening DJ set. But, yeah. OK. Yes. I realize that the inflation, you know, is different."}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm like, I wouldn't even pay that to my opening DJ set. But, yeah. OK. Yes. I realize that the inflation, you know, is different."}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 20, "text": "So you were unable to interview Tony Lawrence. And my impression is...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Still. But, yeah, Mahalia Jackson was the most - she was the highest paid at 10,000."}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 21, "text": "Or find him, yeah. So do you have any clues? Because he's such an important figure in all of this. Like we were saying, like, he's the person who got the commitments from everyone and made the promises and did the deals.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 22, "text": "And he hosted it. So we see him a bunch of times, wearing a different outfit each time. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I will say that..."}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 23, "text": "Well, look. If he is alive any place in the world, I think he'll know that this film exists and will want to reach out to you. I can't imagine him not.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. We had a kind of a paper trail. We were, like, looking, you know? And somehow, like, we just lost track of him in 1982. We know that he had one son and that's it, and only because of, like - I b"}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 24, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here because it's time for another break. My guest is Questlove. His new documentary is called \"Summer Of Soul.\" We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah, every day I'm getting a new revelation. Like, probably the best thing about this film is the amount of people that are reaching out to me saying that, oh, my God, my great-grandmother is 1"}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 25, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Ahmir \"Questlove\" Thompson. He directed the new film \"Summer Of Soul,\" which features performances from and interviews about the 1969 Harlem Cultural Festival, a series of six free concerts at Mount Morris Park in Harlem between June and August of 1969. Tens of thousands of people attended, and some of the most important names in music performed, including Stevie Wonder, Sly and the Family Stone, Nina Simone and B.B. King. About 40 hours of video were shot at the festival by Hal Tulchin with the intention of turning it into a TV series or film, but he was unable to attract interest, and the tape sat in his basement for about 50 years until \"Summer Of Soul\" was produced. Questlove is also the co-founder of the band The Roots, which is the house band of \"The Tonight Show,\" where Questlove is music director. He's also an author, and his new book, \"Music Is History\" - focusing on 1971 to the present - will be published in the fall.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah, every day I'm getting a new revelation. Like, probably the best thing about this film is the amount of people that are reaching out to me saying that, oh, my God, my great-grandmother is 1"}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 26, "text": "The festival represented different strains of Black music - you know, jazz, rhythm and blues, soul, Latin music. Nina Simone is one of the real standout performers in it. And unfortunately, we can't play her performance. We don't have the rights to play her performance. But she introduced the song \"To Be Young, Gifted And Black,\" which was inspired by the off-Broadway show of the same name. And she and her music director wrote the song. She read a poem by David Nelson of The Last Poets, which was a pretty radical poem about being ready to smash things. Are you ready to smash things and burn buildings? And are you ready to listen to all of the beautiful Black voices? And she sang...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah, every day I'm getting a new revelation. Like, probably the best thing about this film is the amount of people that are reaching out to me saying that, oh, my God, my great-grandmother is 1"}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 27, "text": "Yeah, she sang \"Mister Backlash,\" which is also just a very political song. Were you already a big Nina Simone fan? Does she figure into, like, your musical life significantly?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, \"Mister Backlash\" (ph)."}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 28, "text": "There's gospel music presented at the concert, including by, you know, one of the greatest, Mahalia Jackson. And then Mavis Staples had sang with her family, The Staple Singers. But right before Mahalia Jackson went on stage, she asked Mavis Staples for a favor. Do you want to describe?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Nina Simone probably - like, at least for my generation, growing up, the artists that we saw evolve the most in that way was Prince. But Nina Simone was there way before he was, you know, "}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 29, "text": "No, really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, one small factoid that I left out the film - which there was plenty - was actually the person that was supposed to perform with Mahalia was another protege of hers, Aretha Franklin."}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 30, "text": "So why don't we hear the Edwin Hawkins Singers doing \"Oh Happy Day\"? And this is really a terrific performance. They had a big hit record. And as you've said, their church, the Penteostal Church, was very sorry that they were going commercial like this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Aretha was sort of an 11th-hour cancellation in less than 48 hours. So The Staple Singers was gracious enough to do two weeks of performances to sort of make up for that - make up for Aretha's a"}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 31, "text": "And Edwin Hawkins says in the movie, like, no, this is our way of taking the message to the people. Not everybody's going to church. And the singer, you know, the singer has so much spirit, the lead singer. And she's just standing almost perfectly still", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes."}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 32, "text": ". It's really interesting to watch that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes."}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 33, "text": "Yeah. So let's hear the Edwin Hawkins Singers doing \"Oh Happy Day\" from the film \"Summer Of Soul.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She's channeling magic through God, yes, absolutely."}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 34, "text": "That's the Edwin Hawkins Singers performing at the Harlem Cultural Festival in 1969, featured in the new documentary about that festival. The documentary is called \"Summer Of Soul,\" and my guest, Questlove, directed it. I want to talk for a second about where gospel music fits into your life. The last time you were on our show, we talked about how your grandfather, William Beachy Thompson, was a singer in the famous gospel group The Dixie Hummingbirds. And you didn't even know that that was for sure true until 2015 or so.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Oh, happy day. Oh, happy day, when Jesus washed, when Jesus washed, when he washed, when Jesus washed, he washed all my sins away. Oh, happy day. He taught me how - oh, he taught me how, oh,"}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 35, "text": "Yeah. Absolutely.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You want to know something even weirder?"}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 36, "text": "\"Finding Your Roots,\" yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. So, again, the whole family knew of this fact. But, you know, as the story with most African Americans in this country really not knowing their genealogy or the history they came from. So, of cour"}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 37, "text": "That's so funny because you had suspected - you didn't believe it when people told you 'cause your father had never confirmed it. But he confirmed it when he was near death. And now you're finding out it's not even true.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so I had a nice little tradeoff. Of course, in the history of that show, only two people can trace their slave ship and the country and sort of the area from which they came from. The other person"}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 38, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Ahmir \"Questlove\" Thompson. And his new documentary is called \"Summer Of Soul.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He didn't even know. So I'm sure he knows now that he's in the afterlife. But yeah, that's one of the biggest mysteries of the family. And even after that episode came out, my family was still l"}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 39, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Ahmir \"Questlove\" Thompson. He co-founded the band The Roots, which is the house band for \"The Tonight Show,\" where he serves as music director. And he directed the new concert documentary, \"The Summer Of Soul,\" which features performances from and interviews about the 1969 Harlem Cultural Festival. In watching the film, I thought about something that I've thought about a lot before, which is how much, like, music choreography has changed over the decades. Because the coolest thing in the '60s and early '70s was watching the performers do steps, you know. And it's like - it's hand gestures and, like, steps to the side, synchronized. But it's nothing compared to today, where there's teams of dancers doing, like, acrobatic kind of dancing. And some people started to dismiss Motown-style choreography as being too showbizzy (ph). And when you think of what choreography is like now, it's like - it's amazingly showbizzy. Even though it could be very hip-hop, it's still just, like, so elaborate and staged. Have you thought about how music choreography has changed and how expectations have changed about what you're going to see on stage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He didn't even know. So I'm sure he knows now that he's in the afterlife. But yeah, that's one of the biggest mysteries of the family. And even after that episode came out, my family was still l"}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 40, "text": "And probably Jackie Wilson.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's evolved now. I guess we can kind of blame Michael Jackson for this, for like turning it up a notch, you know. And that's because he grew up watching like old, you know, Fred Astaire and Bro"}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 41, "text": "Yeah. Well, yeah, also watching James Brown and Jackie Wilson and whatnot. Yes. Even though choreography has totally 100% sort of went into overdrive throughout the years, I marvel at the simplicity. Like, I'm a person that believes that, you know, less is more. And in the case of the Gladys Knight and the Pips performance, first of all, they're doing it on one microphone. So that's even unprecedented, because I'm used to, like, each background singer having their own microphone. And, you know, but again, you're only dealing with 16 channels. So they have to share a microphone, which means that they also have to - like, what they're doing with their arms. I'm wondering, like, how are they not punching each other with their arms and their - like, all their limbs are being utilized. So I wish I had an answer. It was just more magic to me when less is more.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's evolved now. I guess we can kind of blame Michael Jackson for this, for like turning it up a notch, you know. And that's because he grew up watching like old, you know, Fred Astaire and Bro"}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 42, "text": "So you can still appreciate, like, the simple choreography - not simplistic, but just, you know, simple choreography, which seemed so - it seemed so elaborate at the time", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's evolved now. I guess we can kind of blame Michael Jackson for this, for like turning it up a notch, you know. And that's because he grew up watching like old, you know, Fred Astaire and Bro"}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 43, "text": "you know.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's evolved now. I guess we can kind of blame Michael Jackson for this, for like turning it up a notch, you know. And that's because he grew up watching like old, you know, Fred Astaire and Bro"}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 44, "text": "So the festival was held in Harlem at a park there. And the security was provided - at least a lot of the security was provided by the Black Panthers. And it says in the movie that some of them were wearing, like, the Black Panther uniform of the beret and the, you know, black lapel leather jacket and everything, so you can recognize them as Panthers. But some of them were just wearing plain clothes. There were also some police there. Did you get to interview any of the Panthers who were there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's still elaborate to me because when you're watching the Pips perform, you're not seeing like traditional one, two, three, four. Like, they're doing like it's almost like interpretive body movement"}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 45, "text": "There was a killing, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, the Panther known as Bullwhip. He was, at the time, I believe, a young teenager. And he explained to us that at the very beginning, the police didn't want to provide security for the festival, b"}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 46, "text": "Yeah. There's one moment in the film when the crowd is pushing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Being the tragic version of what happens at a festival. You would have probably heard about the Harlem Cultural Festival. But, yeah, 300,000 people over that summer in '69, and it was not one incid"}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 47, "text": "Sly, yeah. And he's saying, you know, basically telling him to stop. And so that was it. That was the big drama.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, with Sly and the Family Stone."}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 48, "text": "Why not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's excitement because, like, Sly wasn't even supposed to be on the bill. So it was sort of like, hey, people, Jesus Christ is here right now, you know, that sort of thing. So, yeah. Sly was the t"}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 49, "text": "That remains up in the air. My guess is maybe the perception of Jimi might have been a little bit too radical. But unfortunately, what the festival organizers didn't know was that Jimi himself was going through his own transformative period, of which by the end of '69, in the last eight months of his life, he was kind of tired of being the novelty act of like this wild guy that sets his guitars on fire and does all the novelty things that made his initial audiences, like, marvel at him. And he wanted to be more serious and really, truthfully, just return to his Black roots, which was the blues. And so he didn't let that deter him. Instead, he did his only three Harlem performances in Harlem nightclubs with blues master Freddie King. And he had gotten rid of The Experience. And he was working with the Band of Gypsys, which is...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's excitement because, like, Sly wasn't even supposed to be on the bill. So it was sort of like, hey, people, Jesus Christ is here right now, you know, that sort of thing. So, yeah. Sly was the t"}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 50, "text": "Buddy Miles.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's excitement because, like, Sly wasn't even supposed to be on the bill. So it was sort of like, hey, people, Jesus Christ is here right now, you know, that sort of thing. So, yeah. Sly was the t"}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 51, "text": "Congratulations on the movie. It's just been great to talk with you again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Buddy Miles and Billy Cox. So, yeah, it would have been great to see Buddy Miles, Billy Cox and Freddie King and Jimi Hendrix as the Band of Gypsys perform at the Harlem Cultural Festival. But, you kn"}
{"id": "1033238644", "date": "2021-09-01", "guest": "Knight And The Pips", "title": "Questlove Revives 'Black Woodstock' In 'Summer Of Soul' Documentary", "question_index": 52, "text": "Ahmir \"Questlove\" Thompson directed the new documentary \"Summer Of Soul,\" which is streaming on Hulu. Tomorrow through Labor Day, we'll hear interviews from our archive with some of the musicians who performed at the 1969 Harlem Cultural Festival and are featured in the documentary. We'll hear from Gladys Knight, Mavis Staples, B.B. King, Hugh Masekela, Max Roach and Abbey Lincoln. After we take a short break, Justin Chang will review the new film \"Shang-Chi And The Legend Of The Ten Rings.\" It's Marvel's first movie to feature an Asian superhero. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I thank you for having me, and I really enjoy doing your show all the time. Thank you."}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're ending the summer with our series Summer of Soul, a collection of interviews with musicians featured in Questlove's concert documentary, \"Summer Of Soul.\" It was released over the summer and is streaming on Hulu. The film features never-before-shown footage of the 1969 Harlem Cultural Festival, which showcased performances by soul, R&B, jazz and gospel performers, including Stevie Wonder, Sly and the Family Stone, The Staple Singers and The 5th Dimension. The documentary includes interviews describing the ways in which the festival reflected changes in Black culture and politics. The interviews from our archive that we'll hear with performers featured in the film include Mavis Staples, Gladys Knight, Max Roach, and one of my favorite jazz singers, Abbey Lincoln. Today, we have my 1988 interview with South African trumpeter Hugh Masekela and my 1996 interview with one of the best-known blues singers and guitarists of all time, B.B. King.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 1, "text": "B.B. King was born in 1925 in Indianola, Miss. He was a sharecropper's son who worked on a plantation until, as a young man, he relocated to Memphis in 1947 and began busking on streets with his guitar. He remained true to his blues style throughout countless shifts in the pop music world. He recorded and performed well into his 80s and died in 2015 at the age of 89. Here's his 1969 recording of one of the songs he was most associated with, \"The Thrill Is Gone.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 2, "text": "When I spoke with B.B. King in 1996, his autobiography, \"Blues All Around Me,\" had just been published. I asked him about his first guitar.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) The thrill is gone. The thrill is gone away. The thrill is gone, baby. The thrill is gone away. You know you done me wrong, baby, and you'll be sorry someday. (Singing) The thrill is gone. I"}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 3, "text": "Did you think that was cool or silly", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It had a hole in center, and it was made by a company called Stella. And it was red."}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 4, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It had a hole in center, and it was made by a company called Stella. And it was red."}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 5, "text": "You hear the sound of that very first red guitar?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "? That's the way it seemed to me at the time. Believe it or not, I still hear the sound of that sound, if you will, through the guitar that I play today."}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 6, "text": "Now, I love the way you describe developing your style. It sounds like you developed your style by trying and failing to imitate your influences - people like Lonnie Johnson, Blind Lemon Jefferson, your cousin Buckle White, Django Reinhardt, Charlie Christian.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I do."}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 7, "text": "Still trying and failing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Charlie Christian, yes. I'm still doing that."}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 8, "text": "Now, you also left Hawaiian guitar. How did you hear Hawaiian guitar, and how did it - why was it so exciting to you? It was another sound you tried to emulate.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, trying and failing. Yes."}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 9, "text": "Tell me more about the trill on your hand.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'd hear it on the radio. I would hear the Hawaiian sound or the country music players play steel and slide guitars, if you will. And I hear that - to me, a steel guitar is one of the sweetest s"}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 10, "text": "Now, also, you play a kind of single-line guitar as opposed to, you know, chords or rhythm guitar. Tell me, also, about developing that style of single note.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's - how can I tell you? It's sort of like - it's not really pushing and pulling the strings like a lot of guitar players think I do. But it's like kind of just shaking your hand and getting a"}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 11, "text": "So did you feel that your strength lay not in just being a guitar player or in just being a singer, but in doing both together?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think both together. I started to feel that I had to be a good entertainer to keep a job. And I'm kind of happy that I developed in my head that I'm never any better than my last concert or my last "}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 13, "text": "You're from a family of sharecroppers. What was the work that you had to do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) When I first got the blues, they brought me over on a ship. Men were standing over me and a lot more with a whip. And everybody want to know why I sing the blues. Well, I've been around a lo"}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 14, "text": "What was the financial arrangement between your family and the plantation owner?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was a regular hand when I was about 7. I chopped cotton. I picked cotton. I helped to plant it. I did everything that the grown-ups do. And that's mostly - the work had to do with - cotton was"}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 15, "text": "We're listening to my 1996 interview with B.B. King. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 1996 interview with B.B. King. You were - you know, you grew up on a plantation, then left it to go to Memphis, which is where you started really playing music professionally. It's a great story, how you left the plantation. You were driving a tractor.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 17, "text": "This was a problematic tractor that had - it had problems with after ignition. So one day, you turned off the tractor, walked out of the tractor. And then the tractor started jumping on its own, rammed into the barn. The exhaust pipe got crushed or, you know, broke off.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 18, "text": "And you were afraid of how much money you would owe that plantation owner...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Broke off, yes."}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 19, "text": "Oh, oh, oh, even worse", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 20, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 21, "text": "You know, the good thing, too, is that this - that accident forced you to leave the plantation. Maybe you wouldn't have left if it wasn't for that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So I finally went back. And Mr. Barrett was a very nice guy, a man that I admired so much. I wish that I could be a lot more like him."}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 22, "text": "You did?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no. I had planned to leave."}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 23, "text": "The Sam Cooke's group. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I had planned to leave. I had worked with a group called St. John Gospel Singers. And I thought we were very good. And believe it or not, I thought we was getting close to being like the Soul Sti"}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 24, "text": "What was Memphis like when you got there? What impressed you the most?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sam Cooke. You got it. The Golden Gate Quartet, that was - the Pilgrim Travelers and many other quartets that we admired and wanted to be like them, and I thought we was, you know, kind of a good open"}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 25, "text": "And did you feel like, hey, this city is mine? Or did you feel like, I don't belong here?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's what Memphis was like, wow, wow - great, big city. I'd never been in a city that large before."}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 26, "text": "Blues Man Sonny Boy Williamson had a radio show when you got to Memphis, \"King Biscuit Time.\" And you went up to him and asked to sing on the program. It seems to me like a - you must have had the courage to just come in like that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I felt that it was a place of learning because I was lucky. My cousin, Bukka White, lived there, and I had a chance to meet a lot of people when I came to Memphis. And I would go down on Beale Str"}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 27, "text": "Mmm hmm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, before I left Indianola, my hometown - Indianola, Miss. - I used to hear Sonny Boy over in Helena, Ark."}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 28, "text": "He let you sing on his show?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He would come on air each day at 12:15 and - for about 15 minutes for the King Biscuit Company. And I felt that I knew him. It's sort of like watching TV or listening to you. A person listen to you an"}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 29, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, he did. I guess he said, a guy got this much nerve."}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 30, "text": "What'd you sing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I'm very homely-looking."}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 31, "text": "And you got a response?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I sang one of Ivory Joe Hunter's song. Ivory Joe Hunter, if you're not familiar with him, was a great songwriter and great musician. He made a lot of tunes, one or two that you probably have heard. An"}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 32, "text": "Well, you ended up getting your own radio show as well as your own gigs in Memphis. When you were on the radio, one of the things that you had to do was sing - well, write and then sing a jingle for Pepticon, which was - what? - a kind of cure-all remedy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very much so. Sonny Boy seemed to like it. And Sonny Boy was a very big guy, you know? And his eyes was not very clear, looked a little redlike. And he was a very big fellow. And at that time, I weigh"}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 33, "text": "And the only way to drink and be legit", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "they bought a lot of it."}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 34, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "they bought a lot of it."}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 35, "text": "Now, I want to get to another record recorded in 1952. You were 26. This is a recording of \"Three O'Clock Blues.\" It had been a hit...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I won't say that, but I do know that they bought it. I used to ride the trucks on the weekend with the salesmen, and people would stand in line sort of like going to a concert or a movie."}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 36, "text": "...A few years before for Lowell Fulson.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 37, "text": "This was your first No. 1 record on the R&B charts.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 38, "text": "You're coming into your own here, don't you think - as a stylist?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very first."}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 39, "text": "Let's hear it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I think that's music to each performer's ear to hear that they have a top-selling record or CD."}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 40, "text": "We're listening to my 1996 interview with B.B. King, one of the performers featured in the film \"Summer Of Soul,\" a concert documentary about the 1969 Harlem Cultural Festival, which was a series of free concerts with top soul, blues, R&B, jazz and gospel performers. After a short break, we'll hear more of my interview with B.B. King and listen back to my 1988 interview with South African trumpeter Hugh Masekela, another performer showcased at the festival and in the concert documentary. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Now here it is 3 o'clock in the morning, can't even close my eyes. Oh, 3 o'clock in the morning, baby - can't even close my eyes. Well, I can't find my baby. Lord, then I can't be satisfied."}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 41, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 1996 interview with B.B. King, one of the musicians featured in the concert documentary \"Summer of Soul\" which was released earlier this summer and is streaming on Hulu. The film documented the 1969 Harlem Cultural Festival and the changes it represented in Black culture and politics. Over the summer of '69, the festival presented a series of free concerts featuring top soul, R&B, gospel, jazz and blues performers. When we left off, we were listening to B.B. King's record \"Three O'Clock Blues.\" It was his first record that went to No. 1 on the R&B charts.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) ...Down to golden ground. That's where the mens hang out at. Well, I'm bound to find her (ph)."}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 42, "text": "How did that record change your life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) ...Down to golden ground. That's where the mens hang out at. Well, I'm bound to find her (ph)."}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 43, "text": "In the mid-'60s, I guess it was, a lot of the rock guitarists started emulating you. I mean, you became a god to some of them, Mike Bloomfield, Eric Clapton. And that helped introduce your music to college audiences. And then you started playing the college circuit in addition to the places you'd already been playing. What was it like for you to start playing the college circuit? Did you feel like - did it feel very different to you? Did you feel like you needed to change anything about your performance style? Was there anything you were doing that didn't seem to translate?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it changed my life in many ways. One thing, financially, because I had been making about $60 a week at this radio station. And I would go out and pick cotton. I would drive trucks and tractors. "}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 44, "text": "Be real suave.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I was frightened at first. Here I am, a high school dropout, and I'm going to be playing to college audiences. Yes, I felt that I should wear a hard hat and be Fred Astaire or Nat Cole."}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 45, "text": "What good advice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the best thing for you to do is go there and be B.B. King."}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 46, "text": "I have met over the years a lot of people who've worked with you or toured with you. And it's just not possible, I think, to get anybody to say a bad word about you. I mean, your reputation is of somebody who treats everybody around him really well, with a lot of respect, always fair financially and in all other ways as well. And I'm just wondering if that's something that you consciously set out to do. If there - I'm not just trying to be nice here, I mean, I think it's just...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sing \"Three O'Clock Blues.\" Sing the song that you sing the way you sing them. And he said, now, all these other people can do all of those other things, but they can't be you as you can be you. And t"}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 47, "text": "It's just a kind of a fact that you're known for this. And I wonder if you think of yourself just naturally Mr. Nice Guy or if it's something that you've - you felt really obliged to do and have been very conscious about doing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sing \"Three O'Clock Blues.\" Sing the song that you sing the way you sing them. And he said, now, all these other people can do all of those other things, but they can't be you as you can be you. And t"}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 48, "text": "One of your recordings that I particularly love happens to be a recording with the Duke Ellington Orchestra...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There are some things that I've read that I truly believe in. I believe that one should treat others as they want to be treated. And that's one of the things that I try to live by if you will, is tryi"}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 49, "text": "...Your recording of \"Don't Get Around Much Anymore.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There are some things that I've read that I truly believe in. I believe that one should treat others as they want to be treated. And that's one of the things that I try to live by if you will, is tryi"}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 50, "text": "I mean, gee, you don't even play guitar on this. It's so strange. It's such a unusual recording. How'd it feel to sing with the Ellington Orchestra and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 51, "text": "Yeah, and not have a guitar. I mean, I don't think playing in that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 52, "text": "B.B. King, it's really been such a delight to talk with you. Thank you very, very much for your time. Thank you for being here.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was afraid to try to sing, and trying to play guitar would have been just too much. But today, I'm more familiar with a lot of the standard tunes, and I would like to try and play the melodies"}
{"id": "1033616902", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "B B King", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': A Conversation With Blues Legend B.B. King", "question_index": 53, "text": "My interview with B.B. King was recorded in 1996. He died in 2015 at the age of 89. He's one of the performers showcased in the concert documentary \"Summer of Soul\" featuring performances from the 1969 Harlem Cultural Festival. The film is now streaming on Hulu. After a break, we'll hear my 1988 interview with another performer featured in the documentary, South African trumpeter Hugh Masekela. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Missed the Saturday dance. I heard they crowded the floor. It's awfully different without you. Don't get around much anymore. I thought I'd visit the club, got as far as the door. I just cou"}
{"id": "1033626840", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "Hugh Masekela", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': South African Trumpeter Hugh Masekela", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're going to hear an interview from our archive with the late South African trumpeter Hugh Masekela, one of the performers showcased at the 1969 Harlem Cultural Festival, which is the subject of the concert documentary \"Summer Of Soul.\" The film was released in theaters over the summer and is streaming on Hulu. Masekela's record \"Grazing In The Grass\" was a No. 1 hit in 1968. Now it's being used on a TV commercial for Allstate Insurance. In some ways, that record foreshadowed the international popularity of Afropop - African music influenced by rock, soul and jazz. Masekela left South Africa in the early 1960s to study music in London, then New York. He didn't move back to South Africa until 1990, the year Nelson Mandela was released from prison. After Masekela's brief commercial success in the U.S., he spent much of the '70s performing in African countries, touring with some of the top African bands. He returned to the spotlight in the U.S. when he performed on Paul Simon's Graceland tour. When I spoke with Masekela in 1988, he'd just concluded a series of concerts with exiled South African singer Miriam Makeba, to whom he was briefly married after he first came to America. Hugh Masekela died in Johannesburg, South Africa, in 2018 at the age of 78. In his New York Times obit, he was described as a symbol of South Africa's anti-apartheid movement, even as he spent three decades in exile. Let's start with a clip from \"Summer Of Soul.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1033626840", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "Hugh Masekela", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': South African Trumpeter Hugh Masekela", "question_index": 1, "text": "UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #1: From the African continent to the heart of Harlem, Hugh Masekela doing his thing.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1033626840", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "Hugh Masekela", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': South African Trumpeter Hugh Masekela", "question_index": 2, "text": "Hugh Masekela played piano before learning to play trumpet. When we spoke in 1988, I asked him about hearing jazz when he was growing up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He comes to America and lands straight into the hotbed of civil rights. At the time, \"Grazing In The Grass\" was one of the biggest songs on the planet. My father realized there was this real hunger fo"}
{"id": "1033626840", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "Hugh Masekela", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': South African Trumpeter Hugh Masekela", "question_index": 3, "text": "You played in a lot of bands when you were growing up. Now, I understand that one of the bands you played in was the first Black show that authorities allowed whites and mixed races to see. What was that experience like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, you know, from the turn of the century, South Africa had ragtime bands and reviews and Dixieland bands because there was a big industrial boom there with the discovery of all the minerals. And as "}
{"id": "1033626840", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "Hugh Masekela", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': South African Trumpeter Hugh Masekela", "question_index": 4, "text": "My guest is trumpeter and composer Hugh Masekela. When you left South Africa, you left on a music scholarship to study in England and America. How were you able to get the scholarship? And I should ask you first, did you plan on leaving for good? Did you want to get out of South Africa for good when you accepted that scholarship?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I played in \"African Jazz And Variety.\" When I joined \"African Jazz And Variety,\" they were like a big touring review of 60 people. You know, and Miriam Akaba joined it about a year after I did. But i"}
{"id": "1033626840", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "Hugh Masekela", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': South African Trumpeter Hugh Masekela", "question_index": 5, "text": "Oh, yeah, with Kirk Douglas.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when I was 13 years old, I saw a movie about the great Bix Beiderbecke called \"Young Man With A Horn.\""}
{"id": "1033626840", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "Hugh Masekela", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': South African Trumpeter Hugh Masekela", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1033626840", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "Hugh Masekela", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': South African Trumpeter Hugh Masekela", "question_index": 7, "text": "Well, when you got to America and you actually had some access to the people who you'd been listening to for so long, were you able to play with them? And did your rhythms, which were kind of African-based jazz, work well with theirs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And at that time, I was in boarding school. And the school belonged to a community of monks from England called the Community of the Resurrection, of which Trevor Huddleston, which is Bishop Trevor Hu"}
{"id": "1033626840", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "Hugh Masekela", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': South African Trumpeter Hugh Masekela", "question_index": 8, "text": "We're listening to my 1988 interview with the late South African trumpeter Hugh Masekela, one of the musicians featured in the concert documentary \"Summer Of Soul,\" which is streaming on Hulu. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I got here, I was really a - you know, a bebop player. But everybody and all the musicians that I met, especially, you know, Dizzy and Belafonte, said, well, you know, a whole lot of people can d"}
{"id": "1033626840", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "Hugh Masekela", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': South African Trumpeter Hugh Masekela", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 1988 interview with the late South African trumpeter Hugh Masekela. In the U.S., he's best known for his recording \"Grazing In The Grass,\" which made it to No. 1 in 1968. If you don't think you know that recording, maybe it will sound familiar because it's currently being used in an Allstate TV commercial.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Vasco Da Gama, he was a friend of mine. Vasco Da Gama, he was a friend of mine. Vasco Da Gama, he was a friend of mine."}
{"id": "1033626840", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "Hugh Masekela", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': South African Trumpeter Hugh Masekela", "question_index": 10, "text": "What was the story behind this song? Was that the song that you wanted to record? And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Vasco Da Gama, he was a friend of mine. Vasco Da Gama, he was a friend of mine. Vasco Da Gama, he was a friend of mine."}
{"id": "1033626840", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "Hugh Masekela", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': South African Trumpeter Hugh Masekela", "question_index": 11, "text": "You know, after that hit in 1968 that we were talking about, \"Grazing In The Grass,\" I think a lot of people lost track of you. You went to Africa for a long time in the 1970s. Did you kind of give up on America for a period there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. This record - I went to Los Angeles in 1966 because of a record I made live at the Village Gate with the late Tom Wilson, who at the time was also producing Bob Dylan and Paul Simon - Simon and Ga"}
{"id": "1033626840", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "Hugh Masekela", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': South African Trumpeter Hugh Masekela", "question_index": 12, "text": "Was that a good experience for you? I mean, what I'm thinking is, you said when you got to New York, that a lot of the jazz musicians who you wanted to play with said to you, do what's unique to you. Play African music as well. Everyone, you know, plays bebop. Play what's really, like, your music. And there you were in Africa, getting reunited with African musical forms. Was that a good experience for you, a kind of growth experience musically?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not really. I mean, to a certain extent, coming from an oppressed people and having a major success at the level and the bruhaha to which it goes, you know, in its marketplace - and, of course, it was"}
{"id": "1033626840", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "Hugh Masekela", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': South African Trumpeter Hugh Masekela", "question_index": 13, "text": "You'd only stayed in your township.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was very spiritual, too, because it was a pilgrimage. And I was from Africa, but I'd never been there."}
{"id": "1033626840", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "Hugh Masekela", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': South African Trumpeter Hugh Masekela", "question_index": 14, "text": "Oh, around South Africa.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, in South Africa. Well, and I'd been..."}
{"id": "1033626840", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "Hugh Masekela", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': South African Trumpeter Hugh Masekela", "question_index": 15, "text": "Thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...All over South Africa, and I'd been to Botswana once. But it's different, you know? I got - like, I spent seven years where I lived with, you know, the peoples of Guinea, of Ghana, of Zaire, of Nig"}
{"id": "1033626840", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "Hugh Masekela", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': South African Trumpeter Hugh Masekela", "question_index": 16, "text": "My interview with Hugh Masekela was recorded in 1988. He died in 2018 at the age of 78.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1033626840", "date": "2021-09-02", "guest": "Hugh Masekela", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': South African Trumpeter Hugh Masekela", "question_index": 17, "text": "Our Summer of Soul series continues through Labor Day, featuring interviews from our archive with some of the musicians in the concert documentary \"Summer Of Soul,\" which showcased performances from the 1969 Harlem Cultural Festival. The movie is streaming on Hulu. This week, we dedicated one of our shows to Aretha Franklin, who's portrayed in the new biopic \"Respect,\" starring Jennifer Hudson. We featured my interviews with Aretha, Jerry Wexler, her producer at Atlantic Records, and Dan Penn, who wrote the song \"Do Right Woman\" (ph). If you missed that show, you can find it on our podcast, along with this week's interview with Sandra Oh and plenty of other interviews. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Seth Kelley and Kayla Lattimore. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 0, "text": "When you started singing in nightclubs, well, judging from the cover, anyways, of that same record, you were wearing, like, evening gowns...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm one of 12 children. And there's an old piano in the house that my father furnished for us. And I was the only one seemingly who was interested in the piano. I found solace there and companionship "}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 1, "text": "Oh, that's later on. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's late into my career."}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 2, "text": "Was it hard to fit into it having come from a farm in Michigan?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I started as Anna Marie. That's the name my people named me. Anna Marie Wooldridge is the name I was born to. And I met a man named Bob Russell who named me Abbey Lincoln and introduced me to the"}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 3, "text": "What did you think when he told you that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But in the process of all of this, I'm saying, I learned to not trust myself because I wasn't studying to be a - truly an artist. By the time I met Roach, I was already - had made the cover of Ebony m"}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 4, "text": "So you met many other jazz musicians at that time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was relieved. And I believed him because I knew he was a great artist. I had a chance to watch him perform in California. I didn't know anything about Max Roach or Charlie Parker or none of these pe"}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 5, "text": "And you started recording with jazz musicians. How did it change your singing? Did you find, like, your phrasing changed or that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I met the jazz musicians when I met Max Roach. That's when..."}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 6, "text": "...You would interpret a song any differently with the different kind of accompaniment?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 7, "text": "I'd like to play a 1957 recording that you made, which features Max Roach on drums. And Kenny Dorham, Sonny Rollins, Wynton Kelly, Paul Chambers all perform on it. How did this session come to be?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I'm still myself. I'm myself, but I'm more of myself now. There were pointers and that - like, for instance, Max would say to me, sing on the beat because I had a tendency to sing a long line. And"}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 8, "text": "Let's listen to this 1957 recording with my guest, Abbey Lincoln.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "to say it."}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 9, "text": "That's Abbey Lincoln, recorded in 1957. The interview we heard was recorded in 1986. The next interview we'll hear with her from our archive was recorded in 1993.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You can shuffle him with millions, soldiers and civilians. I'd pick him out. In the darkest caves and hallways, I would know him always beyond a doubt. Identification comes easily to me beca"}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 10, "text": "Let me play one of the songs that you wrote that you recorded on one of your recent albums. And this is called \"I Got Thunder\"...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You can shuffle him with millions, soldiers and civilians. I'd pick him out. In the darkest caves and hallways, I would know him always beyond a doubt. Identification comes easily to me beca"}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 11, "text": "...\"(And It Rings).\" It's a great song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 12, "text": "Tell me something about writing it, about what you wanted to say about yourself in this song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 13, "text": "Let's hear Abbey Lincoln singing her own song, \"I Got Thunder (And It Rings).\" And this is from her album, \"The World Is Falling Down.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I'm not changing anything. I'm everything that you say I am. So don't come around here because love is an emotion that will move you to do things, to say things and to be things, whether it pleases"}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 14, "text": "You said that when you discovered jazz and the world of the artists, that you turned into a woman warrior.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Some folks talk about my power. Some folks say I'm wild and strong. Others say my style of living makes a man go wrong. I'm a woman, hard to handle. If you need to handle things, better run "}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 15, "text": "Tell me a little bit about what you were like as the woman warrior then.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the first thing I did - I just started to wear my hair natural. That was a crime in 1960, 1957, 1958. A Black woman wasn't supposed to show that she had hair like she had. It was a disgrace to h"}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 17, "text": "I want to play a recording that you made of a song very associated with Billie Holiday.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're listening to interviews with performers featured in Questlove's documentary, \"Summer Of Soul.\" Let's get back to Terry's 1993 interview with singer Abbey Lincoln."}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 18, "text": "And it's a very masochistic song, \"Don't Explain.\" But it's just such - it's a beautiful song, nevertheless, you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 19, "text": "Yeah. And it's such a beautiful melody. And I love the way you sing it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, forgiving."}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 20, "text": "Tell me a little bit before we hear it about the influence Billie Holiday had on you. I think you're a very different singer than she is, although I hear the influence that she's had on you. But tell me a little bit about that influence and also if you knew her, if you met her.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 21, "text": "So do you think what you learned from Billie Holiday wasn't how to phrase as much as it was that you should be yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I met her when I was about 23 in Honolulu, and she came to the bar where I was working. It was probably to get away from where she was working 'cause the place was jammed with people. Anyway, she came"}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 22, "text": "Let's hear your recording of \"Don't Explain\" back from 1957 from your album \"That's Him,\" your first jazz recording.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes."}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 23, "text": "That's Abbey Lincoln singing \"Don't Explain.\" On the liner notes of one of your early records, someone quotes Thelonious Monk as having said to you the first time he saw you sing, I like the way you stand.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Hush now. Don't explain. Just say you'll remain. I'm glad you're back. Don't explain. Hush now. Don't explain. You're my joy and pain. Skip that lipstick. Don't explain."}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 24, "text": "So how do you interpret that now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, he never said anything like that to me. Thelonious Monk wouldn't say anything like that to anybody in the first place. He doesn't give a damn about the way you stand. Excuse me, God. Thelonious Mo"}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well, I just saw you sing in Philadelphia a couple of weeks ago, and it was a great performance.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It means that you must reach for something. You have to reach for the sky. If you don't make it, at least you reach for it. So your voice cracked, but you reached for it. You don't play safe. It's not"}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 26, "text": "And I don't know. It seems like when I see you on stage that you really are feeling the material that you sing. You're not falling back on professionalism...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 27, "text": "...Or show business or anything. You seem to really be reaching inside each time you perform.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 28, "text": "I'd like to talk about your life a little bit. You got your start, I think, playing in Coney Island for - at sideshows. Is that right?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross. We're continuing our \"Summer Of Soul\" series featuring interviews with performers who were at the legendary 1969 Harlem Cultural Festival. D"}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 29, "text": "What kind of music did you play?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's true. We used to do, sometimes, 12, 14 shows a day. And we'd have a barker outside, it was - a barker who would say, come on in. And the girls would go out and shake a little bit. And then, we'"}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 30, "text": "You were a teenager then.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we played everything from small group versions of Khachaturian pieces where we - where the fire-eaters would - ladies would dance and put fire all over themselves. And a comedian would say a few"}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 31, "text": "Were you different than the other drummers who were playing in the same kinds of bands you were at the time? Did you know that you were doing something different?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Teenager. And that was it. You know, in order to master, I guess, your instrument, you have to do everything. I played with the local symphony orchestra. I played the Coney Island sideshows. I played "}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 32, "text": "How did you first meet some of the people who you became very close with and made now classic music together with? I'm thinking of Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie. Did they find you? Did you find them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I'm only - I grew up in Brooklyn, N.Y. So it's right next to, of course - to Manhattan. And I think we all did the same things. Some of the guys dropped out. Some people dropped, they got married "}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 33, "text": "You were one of the first drummers to play bebop. And you were one of the first people to figure out how to drum in the kind of fiery sessions that were being played. What were some of the challenges that that presented to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Dizzy Gillespie heard me at a jam session in a place called Monroe's Uptown House. Clark Monroe was the brother-in-law of Billie Holiday's first husband, Jimmy Monroe. And he was like a kind of "}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 34, "text": "What rhythms had you been playing before? And what rhythms did you shift into playing once you started playing bop because you really had - you had to invent new rhythms. You had to invent new styles.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when they played fast, they played very fast. It was a period where instrumental virtuosity was, in our area, in the jazz area, was now - prevailed because during the war, you know, we had an ex"}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 35, "text": "Right. Well, to put it less simply, we'll hear some of what you were playing then", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 36, "text": ". This is from the mid-1940s, and this is my guest, Max Roach, as recorded with Miles Davis and Charlie Parker. And we're going to hear \"Ko-Ko.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 37, "text": "That was \"Ko-Ko\" as recorded in 1945 with my guest Max Roach on drums and Miles Davis on trumpet, Charlie Parker on alto saxophone. Does it bring back memories for you? Do you listen back to that much?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 38, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But it's interesting. Bud Powell had no left hand. And it was, you know, we were criticized, but some of it was valid, I thought, you know?"}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 39, "text": "Was this the life you had planned on when you wanted to become a jazz musician? 'Cause you started playing at a time when the big bands...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're featuring interviews with performers who were at the 1969 Harlem Cultural Festival depicted in the Questlove documentary \"Summer Of Soul.\" Let's get back to Terry's interview "}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 40, "text": "...Were still around - and being a jazz musician meant going on tour with Earl Hines or Cab Calloway...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, right."}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 41, "text": "...One of the - Duke Ellington, one of the big bands. But you actually came of age. You know, you grew right after that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 42, "text": "You came of age in a time when it was small groups, as you were saying before. And the life just became very different.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm hmm."}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 43, "text": "In the 1960s, in the early 1960s, you started to play music inspired by the civil rights movement. Had you become an activist then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It did. Well, I hadn't planned on really becoming - taking jazz music that seriously at the time. But the war and all the things that did happen - and then while I was in my senior year at Boys High, "}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 44, "text": "Was it at all risky for you to do politically inspired music? Were you going to - would - did you run into any trouble in getting recording dates afterwards or club dates because of your involvement in the civil rights movement? And, you know, I don't know how you were perceived after that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I guess we always have been, you know? It's something that you - as I - people ask me that quite often. But I go back to Bessie Smith with \"Black Mountain Blues\" and then to Duke Ellington with "}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 45, "text": "The album.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think so. I'll tell you what did happen that was very positive. It sneaked into South Africa around - it was - it went to South Africa, it didn't sneak in it."}
{"id": "1033668778", "date": "2021-09-03", "guest": "Abbey Lincoln", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Abbey Lincoln And Max Roach", "question_index": 46, "text": "I want to thank you very much for joining us today and talking with us. Thank you for being here.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was taken to South Africa as a jazz musician's album until people read the liner notes put out by Nat Hentoff. And the pieces were a comment - because Oscar Brown Jr., of course, was the lyricist o"}
{"id": "1033695866", "date": "2021-09-07", "guest": "The Staple Singers", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Singer Mavis Staples", "question_index": 0, "text": "Mavis Staples, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You came to me, said give you more time - time to get yourself together, time to make up your mind. I want forever love. You want one-night fantasy. While I'm sitting here waiting on you, yo"}
{"id": "1033695866", "date": "2021-09-07", "guest": "The Staple Singers", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Singer Mavis Staples", "question_index": 1, "text": "The song we just heard, \"Time Waits For No One,\" was co-written by you and Prince. How did you co-write it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. It's a pleasure to be here."}
{"id": "1033695866", "date": "2021-09-07", "guest": "The Staple Singers", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Singer Mavis Staples", "question_index": 2, "text": "Prince's real sexy lyrics are about as far as you can get from sanctified music or message songs. Were you at all cautious about getting involved with working with him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, actually, I had written the song a few years ago. And Prince - as we were talking, he mentioned, well, Mavis, I want to know what's on your mind. I'd like to hear some of the songs that you've w"}
{"id": "1033695866", "date": "2021-09-07", "guest": "The Staple Singers", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Singer Mavis Staples", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. You know, I've been asked a question about, Mavis, what are you doing working with this guy who writes these dirty lyrics? But for some reason, Terry, Prince's lyrics got past me. The dirty lyrics"}
{"id": "1033695866", "date": "2021-09-07", "guest": "The Staple Singers", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Singer Mavis Staples", "question_index": 4, "text": "Well, I want to play an example of that. This is a song written by Prince for you, I presume. \"Interesting\"...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know? If you think about it, you really don't know what Prince is saying a lot of times, unless you're reading it. And my main love for Prince was his music, period. So now when his manager spoke "}
{"id": "1033695866", "date": "2021-09-07", "guest": "The Staple Singers", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Singer Mavis Staples", "question_index": 5, "text": "...Was written for you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1033695866", "date": "2021-09-07", "guest": "The Staple Singers", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Singer Mavis Staples", "question_index": 6, "text": "And this record really gets the full Prince treatment", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it was."}
{"id": "1033695866", "date": "2021-09-07", "guest": "The Staple Singers", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Singer Mavis Staples", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it was."}
{"id": "1033695866", "date": "2021-09-07", "guest": "The Staple Singers", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Singer Mavis Staples", "question_index": 8, "text": "Before...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1033695866", "date": "2021-09-07", "guest": "The Staple Singers", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Singer Mavis Staples", "question_index": 9, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then he brought out..."}
{"id": "1033695866", "date": "2021-09-07", "guest": "The Staple Singers", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Singer Mavis Staples", "question_index": 10, "text": "Like what?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...A lot of Mavis' other personality, too."}
{"id": "1033695866", "date": "2021-09-07", "guest": "The Staple Singers", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Singer Mavis Staples", "question_index": 11, "text": "OK. Let's give it a listen. This is an excerpt of \"Interesting\" from Mavis Staples' album, \"Time Waits For No One,\" which was produced by Prince. And this is one of the songs he wrote.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like slick, you know? If you listen to \"Interesting,\" you know, I'm being real slick in there. And I'm actually flirting with this guy, you know? I mean, the song starts out with, (singing) like a bad"}
{"id": "1033695866", "date": "2021-09-07", "guest": "The Staple Singers", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Singer Mavis Staples", "question_index": 12, "text": "What was your family's reaction when you were young to singing secular songs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Interesting, interesting, interesting, interesting. Looky; looky (ph). What have we here? Interesting - like a bad politician, you walked into the room. Interesting - you checking everybody "}
{"id": "1033695866", "date": "2021-09-07", "guest": "The Staple Singers", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Singer Mavis Staples", "question_index": 13, "text": "Now, your father used to play blues before turning to gospel.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a no-no. That was a no-no. In fact, Terry, I got the worst switching of my life for singing a blues song. And I was a kid in school. I was going to school down South at that time in Mound Bayou"}
{"id": "1033695866", "date": "2021-09-07", "guest": "The Staple Singers", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Singer Mavis Staples", "question_index": 14, "text": "It's an electric guitar, too. Was that unusual on the gospel circuit at the time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He did, yes, but mostly just around the house or whatever - not actually onstage. Pops was inspired by guys like John Lemon - Blind John Lemon and Howlin' Wolf, you know? So when he first started play"}
{"id": "1033695866", "date": "2021-09-07", "guest": "The Staple Singers", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Singer Mavis Staples", "question_index": 15, "text": "Was that considered a more devilish instrument", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was at that time. In fact, there were no guitars onstage, period."}
{"id": "1033695866", "date": "2021-09-07", "guest": "The Staple Singers", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Singer Mavis Staples", "question_index": 16, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was at that time. In fact, there were no guitars onstage, period."}
{"id": "1033695866", "date": "2021-09-07", "guest": "The Staple Singers", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Singer Mavis Staples", "question_index": 17, "text": "Well, why don't we hear something from the Staples family?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But like I said, shortly after The Staple Singers came with Pops playing his guitar, every - The Dixie Hummingbirds, the Nightingales, Mighty Clouds of Joy, any group - gospel group that you could n"}
{"id": "1033695866", "date": "2021-09-07", "guest": "The Staple Singers", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Singer Mavis Staples", "question_index": 18, "text": "And you're singing lead on this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "1033695866", "date": "2021-09-07", "guest": "The Staple Singers", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Singer Mavis Staples", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is \"I'm Leaning.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "1033695866", "date": "2021-09-07", "guest": "The Staple Singers", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Singer Mavis Staples", "question_index": 20, "text": "The Staples family with Mavis Staples singing lead. You know, listening to you sing, you can't help but think you could've been Aretha Franklin, if - you know what I mean? You could've had a lot of that kind of success as a soul singer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Oh, what a fellowship. What a joy divine. Leaning on the everlasting arm, everlasting arm. Oh, what - what a blessedness. Oh, what - what a peace of mind. That's why I'm leaning on Jesus. I'"}
{"id": "1033695866", "date": "2021-09-07", "guest": "The Staple Singers", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Singer Mavis Staples", "question_index": 21, "text": "Now, you have had lots and lots of success.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1033695866", "date": "2021-09-07", "guest": "The Staple Singers", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Singer Mavis Staples", "question_index": 22, "text": "But did you ever wish, ever, that you were singing secular songs and on top of the soul charts all the time and with all of the fame and everything that comes to it - attached with that particular kind of secular success?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1033695866", "date": "2021-09-07", "guest": "The Staple Singers", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Singer Mavis Staples", "question_index": 23, "text": "Tell me how the family started singing together.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're concluding our \"Summer Of Soul\" interviews with performers who are featured in the Questlove documentary of the same name about the 1969 Harlem Cultural Festival. Let's get ba"}
{"id": "1033695866", "date": "2021-09-07", "guest": "The Staple Singers", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Singer Mavis Staples", "question_index": 24, "text": "Well, how did it become a career?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we were kids. I guess I was maybe - had been about 6 years old. My mother worked nights, and my father worked days. During the day, my mother would keep us, and at night, Pops would keep us. So "}
{"id": "1033695866", "date": "2021-09-07", "guest": "The Staple Singers", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Singer Mavis Staples", "question_index": 25, "text": "When you were a teenager, you were - when you were an older teenager, you were already on the road singing gospel with your family...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It became a career because we had an aunt - Aunt Katie, one of Daddy's sisters, lived with us. And she heard us rehearsing. She invited us to her church one Sunday. Well, we went out to sing at this c"}
{"id": "1033695866", "date": "2021-09-07", "guest": "The Staple Singers", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Singer Mavis Staples", "question_index": 26, "text": "...Whereas a lot of your peers were not with their families. And let's face it, when you're a teenager, it's a time usually when people start coming of age sexually...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1033695866", "date": "2021-09-07", "guest": "The Staple Singers", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Singer Mavis Staples", "question_index": 27, "text": "...And experimenting with various things. Did you ever feel held back from that, being on the road with your father in a gospel group?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes."}
{"id": "1033695866", "date": "2021-09-07", "guest": "The Staple Singers", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Singer Mavis Staples", "question_index": 28, "text": "Mavis Staples is my guest. Would you describe the church that you grew up in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I didn't because I was doing what I enjoyed. And when I came home off the road, I hung with my friends, you know? I was the average teenager. I went to dances and skating rinks, bowling, you know,"}
{"id": "1033695866", "date": "2021-09-07", "guest": "The Staple Singers", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Singer Mavis Staples", "question_index": 29, "text": "In the late '60s, I think it was, The Staple Singers started singing message songs...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I grew up in a Baptist church - very lively - where, you know, as soon as the music started, I'd jump up and clap my hands. It was at Mount Eagle Baptist Church. Rev. C.J. Rodgers was the pastor then."}
{"id": "1033695866", "date": "2021-09-07", "guest": "The Staple Singers", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Singer Mavis Staples", "question_index": 30, "text": "...Which was a departure from the gospel music. How did you crossover into that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1033695866", "date": "2021-09-07", "guest": "The Staple Singers", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Singer Mavis Staples", "question_index": 31, "text": "I want to play something from that period.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the message song - actually, we made two transitions. We made one transition first before that message. We went to protest songs. Our first thing was protest songs. That was during the time we w"}
{"id": "1033695866", "date": "2021-09-07", "guest": "The Staple Singers", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Singer Mavis Staples", "question_index": 32, "text": "And this is \"I'll Take You There,\" which was a big hit for...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "1033695866", "date": "2021-09-07", "guest": "The Staple Singers", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Singer Mavis Staples", "question_index": 33, "text": "...The Staple Singers. Do you want to say anything about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right."}
{"id": "1033695866", "date": "2021-09-07", "guest": "The Staple Singers", "title": "'Summer Of Soul': Singer Mavis Staples", "question_index": 34, "text": "Well, I want to thank you very much for talking with us about your music and your life. Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"I'll Take You There\"? No. Well, we did this in Muscle Shoals with the Muscle Shoals, Ala. guys. Al Bell produced it and wrote it. And I think it's a great song."}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. As one of Michael K. Williams' many fans, I was so sorry to learn on Monday that he'd been found dead in his home earlier that day. This morning, as I record this, his death is being investigated as a possible drug overdose. Like so many of his fans, I first saw him on the HBO series \"The Wire\" in which he gave a riveting and charismatic performance as Omar Little, a stick-up man who robbed drug dealers who were in no position to complain to the police. He often walked through the streets in a long coat carrying a shotgun. He was feared because he was fearless. What Omar wasn't respected for in the hood was being gay. Williams also co-starred in HBO's series \"Boardwalk Empire\" as Chalky White, a powerful bootlegger in Atlantic City during Prohibition, and in \"The Night Of\" as an inmate who controlled a prison block on Rikers Island. In \"When They See Us,\" he played Bobby McCray, the father of Antron McCray, one of five youths wrongfully convicted on charges related to the rape of a woman jogging in Central Park in 1989. Williams is currently nominated for an Emmy for his performance in \"Lovecraft Country.\" In a tweet paying tribute to him, his co-star on \"The Wire,\" Wendell Pierce, wrote, he shared with me his secret fears, then stepped out into his acting with true courage. Later, we'll hear the interview I recorded with Michael K. Williams in 2016. We'll start with the interview we recorded in 2008 during the final season of \"The Wire,\" which followed the intertwining stories of Baltimore politicians, cops, drug dealers and the teenagers who sold the drugs on the corners. One turning point in the series was when Omar's boyfriend was murdered, setting off a cycle of retribution. In this scene, Omar, with a gun in each hand, crashes through the door of a card game run by Marlo, the most powerful drug dealer in West Baltimore.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 1, "text": "Michael Williams, welcome to FRESH AIR. Now, people in the neighborhood are really afraid of Omar because they know what you do. And when the neighborhood kids see Omar coming, they run away screaming, Omar coming. How does it feel to have that reaction to you, even if it's only in fiction?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Omar Little) No doubt."}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 2, "text": "Right. So you said that anyone who knew you growing up would know that you weren't the kind of person who inspired fear. So how did you find that place in yourself so that you could portray that kind of power?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the first time, I couldn't get through without laughing. I couldn't fathom anybody would, you know, run away from me in total fear. You know, anybody that really knows me growing up, you know, i"}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 3, "text": "What's one of the most fearless things that you had to portray Omar doing up until this point in the series? Don't tell us about anything that hasn't happened yet.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I play Omar from a very painful place. You know, it's a very dark state of mind to be in, a very painful state of mind. And that's - I identify a lot with him on that level, you know, having overcome "}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 4, "text": "Now, Ed Burns, one of the main writers on the show, told me that Omar's first onscreen kiss wasn't in the script and that you actually improvised it. Would you describe the scene and tell us why you decided to add that kiss?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would say the most fearless thing that I was able to pull off and portray as Omar on television was his openness with his sexuality and not have that go over the top. It meant a lot to me that this "}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 5, "text": "One of my favorite Omar scenes is like - as I remember - he doesn't have, like, the breakfast cereal that he wants, so he goes out wearing only his robe. I don't think you were even wearing slippers or shoes, goes to the neighborhood store to get it and kind of, you know, brings it back. But it's such a sign of power that he could just like, do that in these, like, really mean streets. He's just going to walk out in his robe and go to the store.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So this particular scene was when - it was in Season 1. And Omar and Brandon and Bailey, they were waiting for Bailey to come back so they can go, you know, hunting, basically. And he never shows up a"}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, that could easily be perceived as ignorant as for a person who lives, you know, on the edge, the way Omar does. But, like, I, you know, I said earlier, Omar doesn't - he doesn't operate from"}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 7, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know what I mean? You know, because everybody knows he would not run in that corner store that he was going to to rob nobody. That's - you know, that's just - they know Omar doesn't do that. So th"}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 8, "text": "Tell us how you got the part of Omar. Did your agent send them a picture? Like, why were you being considered?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's high noon. Time to get out the way. Omar's here. Some bullets going to fly."}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 9, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What agent?"}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 10, "text": "Who's she?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was working in my mom's day care back in Flatbush. You know, I got a call from Alexa Fogel. She faxed over the breakdown, who decides..."}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 11, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded with Michael K. Williams in 2008. He died Monday at the age of 54. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Alexa Fogel is the casting director. You know, before \"The Wire,\" I, you know, did several \"Law & Orders,\" did a film with Nicolas Cage, Martin Scorsese, \"Bringing Out The Dead.\" I had \"Sopranos\" "}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Michael K. Williams, recorded in 2008, during the final season of the HBO series \"The Wire\" and the role that made him famous - Omar Little, a stick-up man who robbed drug dealers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Alexa Fogel is the casting director. You know, before \"The Wire,\" I, you know, did several \"Law & Orders,\" did a film with Nicolas Cage, Martin Scorsese, \"Bringing Out The Dead.\" I had \"Sopranos\" "}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 13, "text": "You have a beautiful face, but you also have a scar running down most of the length of your face. How did you get the scar?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Alexa Fogel is the casting director. You know, before \"The Wire,\" I, you know, did several \"Law & Orders,\" did a film with Nicolas Cage, Martin Scorsese, \"Bringing Out The Dead.\" I had \"Sopranos\" "}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 14, "text": "What was it about? What was it about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And, yeah, just..."}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 15, "text": "So initially, how did it change your life? Your life had to change by something as major as that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 16, "text": "So you were already doing acting and modeling when you got cut?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it definitely was a wakeup call. I almost died that night, though. The scar that most people see is not the one that endangered my life. There's one that goes from my ear lobe to my jugular, and"}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 17, "text": "Like on videos.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was - yeah, I was dancing more so. I was background dancing a lot."}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 18, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Music videos, going on tours and stuff. And I'd - I had did a - I did a spread for this company called Rock Embassy, and they made all the tour jackets for recording artists like, you know, Queen Lati"}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 19, "text": "Well, did you think your career was over?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So all my friends had this little joke that they called me the male Marla Gibbs."}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 20, "text": "So how did you get into doing music videos? Like, what was your first break there? How did you start dancing in the first place?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I never even locked into that. You know, I was pretty much, how am I going to hide this buck fifty down my face, you know? Because I was - you know, I was, you know, club kid era. So I was, like, you "}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 21, "text": "You mean, like, rehab or something?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I always loved dance. I always, you know, was the life of the party, growing up stuff, as far as dance was concerned. But, oh, I was - I got into a lot of trouble in my teenage years - you know, messi"}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 22, "text": "From prison?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So when I came back from that, like..."}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 23, "text": "I'm not sure when...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So when I came back from that, like..."}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 24, "text": "Right, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was mandatory, so..."}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 25, "text": "Sure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We'll leave it at that, but..."}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 26, "text": "Homeless? How come?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And I was really serious about that. And, you know, I got - you know, ended up homeless for about a year, so..."}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 27, "text": "How did you do it? I mean, how did - if you're sleeping on trains, how did you get to the point where you're getting cast in a music video?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", he makes another left turn. What do you mean you're going to quit school and your good job to become a dancer? Are you crazy? So just trying to escape hearing all the - you know, just to downplay on"}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 28, "text": "Well, your mother must be proud of you. She didn't think it was a realistic ambition, and look what you've done.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, don't get it twisted. Oh, I stayed in the mix. I - backstage was my best friend. That was, like, my Bible, Backstage newspaper. I stayed in areas like Broadway Dance Center. I was always up there "}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 29, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, she's very proud of me. And I'm just proud of the fact that she even, you know, loves me and hasn't, like, kicked me out of her life for the crap I put her through."}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 30, "text": "Why not? Is it not her kind of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But, you know, she - I must say, though, she does not watch \"The Wire.\" She's not, you know - my mother's - the relationship that she and I have has been tested many, many times. And the friendship th"}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 31, "text": "Too violent?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just not her cup of tea."}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 32, "text": "You know, when I interviewed Clark Johnson, who plays the character of Gus, the city editor on \"The Wire\" and who directed the first two episodes and the final episode of the series, I said to him, what should I ask Michael Williams", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's like, you know, - it's just, you know - yeah, we'll leave it at that. It's just - yeah. You know what I mean? She'd rather laugh. You know what I mean? She's seen enough dark days herself, "}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 33, "text": "when I talk with him? And the one question he suggested to me is, ask him how he's going to shake off the character of Omar.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's like, you know, - it's just, you know - yeah, we'll leave it at that. It's just - yeah. You know what I mean? She'd rather laugh. You know what I mean? She's seen enough dark days herself, "}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 34, "text": "My interview with Michael K. Williams was recorded in 2008 during the final season of \"The Wire.\" Williams died Monday. We'll continue our tribute to him after a break and hear an excerpt of my 2016 interview with him. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, big ups to Clark Johnson. That man has a beautiful mind. That's a hella fine question. You know, I don't know if that's going to ever happen. And what's even scarier is I don't even know if "}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 35, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're remembering actor Michael K. Williams. He died Monday. He was 54. He became famous for his first major role on \"The Wire\" as Omar Little, a stick-up man who robbed drug dealers. He went on to co-star in \"Boardwalk Empire\" as Chalky White, a powerful bootlegger in Atlantic City during prohibition. In \"When They See Us,\" he played Bobby McCray, the father of Antron McCray, 1 of 5 youths wrongly convicted on charges related to the rape of a woman jogging in Central Park in 1989. Williams is currently nominated for an Emmy for his performance in \"Lovecraft Country.\" We're going to hear an excerpt of the second interview I recorded with him in 2016, when he was co-starring in the HBO series \"The Night Of\" as Freddy, an inmate in Rikers Island, the notorious jail in New York City. In this scene, Naz, a college student whose parents are immigrants from Pakistan, has been accused of murder and is sent to Rikers, where Naz is clueless and Freddy basically controls the prison block. Freddy takes an interest in Naz and summons Naz to his cell. Naz is played by Riz Ahmed. Michael K. Williams, as Freddy, speaks first.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, big ups to Clark Johnson. That man has a beautiful mind. That's a hella fine question. You know, I don't know if that's going to ever happen. And what's even scarier is I don't even know if "}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 36, "text": "Michael K. Williams, welcome back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Freddy Knight) Doesn't matter. Makes no difference. See, there's a whole separate judicial system in here. And you've just been charged and juried. It didn't come out good for you."}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 37, "text": "I really like your performance in this series. What did you want to know about your character when you took the role?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 38, "text": "So your character is in jail in Rikers Island, which is a very notorious jail in New York City. Did you know people in Rikers Island when you were growing up? Did you hear a lot of Rikers Island stories when you were...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, when I first got the part, it wasn't really nothing I wanted to know about them. I'm so familiar with people like Freddy, you know, from my childhood and from my personal life. You know, I h"}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 39, "text": "We're listening to my 2016 interview with Michael K. Williams. He died Monday at age 54. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, D-Block, yeah, House of Pain, One Main, House of Pain. You know, and I just want to take a moment to just say - to give a shout-out to all my brothers and sisters who may be incarcerated on the "}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 40, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're listening to my 2016 interview with Michael K. Williams. When we spoke, he was also hosting a documentary series on Viceland called \"Black Market\" about underground economies. The first episode was about carjacking in Newark, N.J. You interview a minister, Reverend Ronald Christian, who ran the Christian Love Baptist Church, a church that bordered Newark in Irvington, N.J.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, D-Block, yeah, House of Pain, One Main, House of Pain. You know, and I just want to take a moment to just say - to give a shout-out to all my brothers and sisters who may be incarcerated on the "}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 41, "text": "And this is a church that was really important to you during a difficult period of your life. The episode is dedicated to the memory of this reverend. So in between the time that you recorded the interview and last November, when he actually died, I don't know how much time elapsed, but you must have been really shocked. He was found dead on the floor of the church. Does anyone know what happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct."}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 42, "text": "What did he do for you? You came to him during a difficult part of your life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "His heart just gave out, man. He got tired. You know, this was a man that, you know, I've never seen someone give so much of themself 100% night and day. He just never stopped. He was always there in "}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 43, "text": "When was this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I came around, I was broken. I came through those doors, I was broken."}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 44, "text": "He went from prison guard to prisoner to reverend. So I assume there was some kind of, like, religious transformation along the way. Did - was there a religious transformation in your life? Did that figure into your life at all?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This was, I would say, around the second, more like third season of \"The Wire.\" I was doing (ph) drugs, basically, you know, long story short. And I was in jeopardy of destroying everything that I had"}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 45, "text": "How old were you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It was more of a spiritual awakening than anything religious. You know, that was the first time I actually walked into a church and felt like it's OK. I didn't feel dirty. You know, I come from "}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 46, "text": "You know, in our first interview, you talked about how, when you were playing Omar, it was hard for you to summon up the kind of power that he had. I mean, he was a stick-up man. He used to hold up drug dealers and steal their money. He didn't approve of drugs. He didn't like dealers, so he'd take their money and have no qualms about it. And he was tough enough and brave enough to do it. So you said that you never thought of yourself as having that kind of power.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "12 or 13, 12, somewhere up in there. You know, things happen. But, you know, you move on. And I never would go into church. I always felt like, you know what? The whole - it made me question myself on"}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 47, "text": "In fact, the opposite. And so the thought of you playing that role made you laugh. And you even told me that in the first scenes that you played, you couldn't stop laughing because you thought it was so absurd for you to be playing somebody with that kind of power.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't."}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 48, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It was the scene when we was walking down the aisle, Omar coming, drop the drugs out the window. He turns his back. I'm like, no one in their right mind who knows me - I said, it's over now. We're g"}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 49, "text": "I feel like maybe I understand a little bit more what you were saying, like, if you were molested, I could understand how you would feel like you didn't have that kind of physical power.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so for me to connect, you know, I, you know, again, the whole alpha male aspect, I don't know how to know how to - I'm sorry. What did you want to say?"}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 50, "text": "Or to be physically intimidating.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I never felt like that. And, you know, I just wasn't raised to have that violent side. So it kind of..."}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 51, "text": "You're laughing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 52, "text": "So why do you think you started using drugs when - or started using them again, I'm not sure which - after \"The Wire\" was on, after you'd become successful?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't have that. I don't have that. It wasn't accepted in my mom's household to fight. It just was not the case. And so I just didn't have that skill. But the anger, the emotions, I didn't know what"}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 53, "text": "Because you'd think on the surface that that would be a period when your self-esteem would be, like, really good because you were so great in the role and people, like, loved you in it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A little bit of both."}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 54, "text": "Or you didn't feel worthy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, see, that's the trick. That's the trick. It can't be anything outward that makes you feel good about yourself. That is the trick. Those things don't work. Feeling good - that's got to come - it'"}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 55, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Hell, no, I didn't feel worthy of opportunity like that. And then, you know, when I was given this character as Omar, I could have used it as a nurturing tool for myself. It could have been cathar"}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 56, "text": "So both in \"The Wire\" and \"Boardwalk Empire,\" your characters are shot to death. In \"The Wire,\" you're shot by a kid. And \"Boardwalk Empire,\" it's almost like a firing squad. And it's like - there's, like, I don't know, five gangsters who just kind of line up and shoot you with it. And you die off camera. It kind of fades to black. Can I ask you what it's like to experience your character's death?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...When you cut somebody to the white meat. It was a little too close to home, that character. And I didn't equip myself with the tools of how to wash that off my psyche."}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 57, "text": "It's been great to talk with you. Thank you so much. And thank you for all the great work you've done.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, wow. That's a first. That is the first time I've ever been asked that question. Well, with \"The Wire,\" we just - we've covered that. That was a very jagged pill to swallow - didn't do well with th"}
{"id": "1035088933", "date": "2021-09-08", "guest": "Michael K Williams", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers 'Wire' And 'Boardwalk Empire' Actor Michael K. Williams", "question_index": 58, "text": "My interview with Michael K. Williams was recorded in 2016. He died Monday at the age of 54. It's tragic that he's gone. It's a great loss for the world of movies and TV and for his fans like me. Our sympathies to his friends and family. After we take a short break, TV critic David Bianculli will review the new remake of \"Doogie Howser, M.D.\" The original starred Neil Patrick Harris. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. Thanks for your time."}
{"id": "1035475408", "date": "2021-09-09", "guest": "Ian Millhiser", "title": "SCOTUS Ruling On Texas Abortion Law Could Foreshadow The End Of Roe V. Wade", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The Supreme Court's recent ruling allowing a Texas anti-abortion law to go into effect has implications for the future of abortion, law enforcement and the future of the Supreme Court. My guest Ian Millhiser has been writing about that decision, the court's voting rights decisions, the increasing use of the shadow docket and the court's larger move to the right. In his new book \"The Agenda: How A Republican Supreme Court Is Reshaping America,\" he writes that while Congress has become increasingly polarized and dysfunctional, the Supreme Court has become the locus of policymaking in the U.S., and the policies are largely very conservative. Three of the six conservative justices were appointed by President Trump. Millhiser says some of the court's least understood and most arcane decisions are fundamentally reshaping our nation. He's a senior correspondent for Vox where he focuses on the Supreme Court, the Constitution and threats to liberal democracy in the U.S. Millhiser is a lawyer and clerked for Judge Eric L. Clay of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 6th Circuit. Ian Millhiser, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1035475408", "date": "2021-09-09", "guest": "Ian Millhiser", "title": "SCOTUS Ruling On Texas Abortion Law Could Foreshadow The End Of Roe V. Wade", "question_index": 1, "text": "Let's start with the basics about the new Supreme Court ruling on the Texas restrictive abortion law. Can you just, like, summarize the basics of this law to refresh everybody's memory before we delve into it deeper?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's good to be here. Thank you so much."}
{"id": "1035475408", "date": "2021-09-09", "guest": "Ian Millhiser", "title": "SCOTUS Ruling On Texas Abortion Law Could Foreshadow The End Of Roe V. Wade", "question_index": 2, "text": "So this law outlaws abortion after six weeks, and it says that no state official can enforce the law; it's only citizens who can do that. So it basically has vigilantes who can collect a $10,000 bounty for turning in somebody who has aided or abetted an abortion. Is this, like, totally new to American law? Is this unprecedented?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So this is a law that's effectively a ban on abortions after the sixth week of pregnancy, which is very, very early. You know, most people aren't even aware that they are pregnant until long after tha"}
{"id": "1035475408", "date": "2021-09-09", "guest": "Ian Millhiser", "title": "SCOTUS Ruling On Texas Abortion Law Could Foreshadow The End Of Roe V. Wade", "question_index": 3, "text": "So could the Supreme Court have said, very clever, you guys in Texas? You figured out a way to get around the court. However, the way you've chosen to get around the court is kind of unconstitutional, so we're going to not allow this law to stand.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I have a tough time thinking of a similar law. I mean, some historians I've talked to have pointed to the Fugitive Slave Act, but it's hard to find many historical precedents for a law that ha"}
{"id": "1035475408", "date": "2021-09-09", "guest": "Ian Millhiser", "title": "SCOTUS Ruling On Texas Abortion Law Could Foreshadow The End Of Roe V. Wade", "question_index": 4, "text": "So what would a challenge to this restrictive Texas law look like? Who could challenge it, under what circumstances?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, absolutely. They could have done that. You know, they could have - you know, like I just suggested, they could have said, well, you did sue a state official who enforces the law. You sued a stat"}
{"id": "1035475408", "date": "2021-09-09", "guest": "Ian Millhiser", "title": "SCOTUS Ruling On Texas Abortion Law Could Foreshadow The End Of Roe V. Wade", "question_index": 5, "text": "So the person being sued has to pay a lot in court fees. Meanwhile, the person suing them might get $10,000 for their effort. So it's - yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the way that things work now after the Supreme Court's order is that someone has to wait until after they are sued, and then once they are sued under the law, they can then go to court as the defen"}
{"id": "1035475408", "date": "2021-09-09", "guest": "Ian Millhiser", "title": "SCOTUS Ruling On Texas Abortion Law Could Foreshadow The End Of Roe V. Wade", "question_index": 6, "text": "So that could actually be a tactic - to get hundreds or thousands or at least dozens of people to sue one person as a tactic to discourage anybody else from filing a challenge.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, exactly. Like, the - I mean, the person who is bringing the lawsuit will have some fees. I mean, they presumably will hire their own lawyer. You know, they have to file a filing fee. It's not li"}
{"id": "1035475408", "date": "2021-09-09", "guest": "Ian Millhiser", "title": "SCOTUS Ruling On Texas Abortion Law Could Foreshadow The End Of Roe V. Wade", "question_index": 7, "text": "Well, let's take a break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Ian Millhiser. He covers the Supreme Court for Vox, and he's the author of the new book \"The Agenda: How A Republican Supreme Court Is Reshaping America.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's exactly right. I mean, there are even - there are anti-abortion groups in Texas who have set up websites where you can, like, report people and claim that, you know, you have evidence that this"}
{"id": "1035475408", "date": "2021-09-09", "guest": "Ian Millhiser", "title": "SCOTUS Ruling On Texas Abortion Law Could Foreshadow The End Of Roe V. Wade", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Ian Millhiser. He covers the Supreme Court for Vox, and he's the author of the new book \"The Agenda: How A Republican Supreme Court Is Reshaping America.\" What is the Biden administration trying to do to uphold abortion rights?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's exactly right. I mean, there are even - there are anti-abortion groups in Texas who have set up websites where you can, like, report people and claim that, you know, you have evidence that this"}
{"id": "1035475408", "date": "2021-09-09", "guest": "Ian Millhiser", "title": "SCOTUS Ruling On Texas Abortion Law Could Foreshadow The End Of Roe V. Wade", "question_index": 9, "text": "So next term, it's likely the Supreme Court will hear a case about a Mississippi law. And the law - the case is called Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization. This is a law that bars abortion after 15 weeks, which is before viability. Now, 15 weeks is more than the Texas law, which is six weeks. But you say that this case can actually be used to explicitly overrule Roe. How could this case do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a good question. So the Justice Department put out a statement saying that it would try to get involved here. I mean, part of the problem is that there isn't a good federal statute for them to "}
{"id": "1035475408", "date": "2021-09-09", "guest": "Ian Millhiser", "title": "SCOTUS Ruling On Texas Abortion Law Could Foreshadow The End Of Roe V. Wade", "question_index": 10, "text": "You wrote about how what we're seeing now is basically a shift in strategy to try to limit or overrule abortion rights and that the strategy has shifted from looking at restrictions to looking at actually overturning Roe - and if not literally overturning Roe, functionally overturning Roe. Can you talk about that change in strategy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. So Dobbs, like you said, deals with the question of whether states can ban abortions prior to viability. Viability is the moment where the fetus, potentially with medical assistance, could live o"}
{"id": "1035475408", "date": "2021-09-09", "guest": "Ian Millhiser", "title": "SCOTUS Ruling On Texas Abortion Law Could Foreshadow The End Of Roe V. Wade", "question_index": 11, "text": "So you said there will be a time when the Supreme Court out and out overrules Roe or Casey or give states such broad powers to add restrictions so that it becomes functionally impossible in many states to get an abortion. You sounded so certain when you said there will be a time. Are you that certain that the Supreme Court will rule against Roe or Casey or rule in favor of such restrictions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. So a lot of this goes back to Justice Kennedy, who retired under President Trump. Anthony Kennedy was a very - he's still alive. He's still very conservative. But he wasn't willing to overrule R"}
{"id": "1035475408", "date": "2021-09-09", "guest": "Ian Millhiser", "title": "SCOTUS Ruling On Texas Abortion Law Could Foreshadow The End Of Roe V. Wade", "question_index": 12, "text": "So I think we need to take another break here. So let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Ian Millhiser. He covers the Supreme Court for Vox. And he's the author of the book \"The Agenda: How A Republican Supreme Court Is Reshaping America.\" We'll be back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I guess I shouldn't speak with absolute confidence. I'm very highly confident that this court is going to end the constitutional right to an abortion. Now, you know, a lot could happen. "}
{"id": "1035475408", "date": "2021-09-09", "guest": "Ian Millhiser", "title": "SCOTUS Ruling On Texas Abortion Law Could Foreshadow The End Of Roe V. Wade", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Ian Millhiser, who has been writing about the recent Supreme Court order allowing a restrictive Texas abortion law to go into effect. He's also been writing about the court's voting rights decisions, the increasing use of the shadow docket and the court's larger move to the right. In his new book \"The Agenda: How A Republican Supreme Court Is Reshaping America,\" he writes that while Congress has become increasingly polarized and dysfunctional, the Supreme Court has become the locus of policymaking in the U.S., and the policies are largely conservative. Three of the six conservative justices were appointed by President Trump. Millhiser says some of the court's least understood and most arcane decisions are fundamentally reshaping our nation. He's a senior correspondent for Vox, where he focuses on the Supreme Court, the Constitution and threats to liberal democracy in the U.S. Millhiser is a lawyer and clerked for a judge of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 6th Circuit. So if the Supreme Court either out and out overrules Casey or Roe or uphold restrictions that are so severe that it leaves no time to get an abortion, that would be a federal ruling, but states would still be able to make their own laws, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I guess I shouldn't speak with absolute confidence. I'm very highly confident that this court is going to end the constitutional right to an abortion. Now, you know, a lot could happen. "}
{"id": "1035475408", "date": "2021-09-09", "guest": "Ian Millhiser", "title": "SCOTUS Ruling On Texas Abortion Law Could Foreshadow The End Of Roe V. Wade", "question_index": 14, "text": "Let's talk about the shadow docket. The Supreme Court's order about the restrictive Texas abortion law was a shadow docket case as opposed to a full Supreme Court ruling. Explain what the shadow docket is. Some people have already heard about this. It was a new term for many of us, but it's become a little more familiar in the past week. So would you explain the shadow docket? And we'll proceed from there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. So for the moment, the fight that we are having is over whether or not states can pass abortion bans or very severe abortion restrictions. I suspect that the next chapter in this litigat"}
{"id": "1035475408", "date": "2021-09-09", "guest": "Ian Millhiser", "title": "SCOTUS Ruling On Texas Abortion Law Could Foreshadow The End Of Roe V. Wade", "question_index": 15, "text": "So you write that the Trump administration really took advantage of shadow docket cases. How did it do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. So the term shadow docket, I believe it was coined by Will Baude, who's a law professor at the University of Chicago. And the term refers to - so most cases, like the big historical cases that, "}
{"id": "1035475408", "date": "2021-09-09", "guest": "Ian Millhiser", "title": "SCOTUS Ruling On Texas Abortion Law Could Foreshadow The End Of Roe V. Wade", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, let's take another break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Ian Millhiser. He covers the Supreme Court for Vox, and he's the author of \"The Agenda: How A Republican Supreme Court Is Reshaping America.\" We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So what happened in the Trump administration is there were a lot of lower court orders blocking various Trump administration policies, you know, very controversial immigration policies, you know, vari"}
{"id": "1035475408", "date": "2021-09-09", "guest": "Ian Millhiser", "title": "SCOTUS Ruling On Texas Abortion Law Could Foreshadow The End Of Roe V. Wade", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Ian Millhiser. He covers the Supreme Court for Vox, and he's the author of the new book \"The Agenda: How A Republican Supreme Court Is Reshaping America.\" You write in your book that voting rights is perhaps, like, the most important issue we face now, and we've just seen two restrictive voting laws in Texas and in Georgia. Why do you think voting rights is, like, the most important challenge we're facing right now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So what happened in the Trump administration is there were a lot of lower court orders blocking various Trump administration policies, you know, very controversial immigration policies, you know, vari"}
{"id": "1035475408", "date": "2021-09-09", "guest": "Ian Millhiser", "title": "SCOTUS Ruling On Texas Abortion Law Could Foreshadow The End Of Roe V. Wade", "question_index": 18, "text": "Congress has been very polarized and dysfunctional, and you say basically that the courts have taken over, you know, lawmaking. They've basically taken over the function that used to be the function of Congress. Can you elaborate on that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, everything flows from the right to vote. You know, if you don't have the ability to pick your leaders, you have nothing because any right you have can be taken away from you if you don't have "}
{"id": "1035475408", "date": "2021-09-09", "guest": "Ian Millhiser", "title": "SCOTUS Ruling On Texas Abortion Law Could Foreshadow The End Of Roe V. Wade", "question_index": 19, "text": "President Biden appointed a commission to study Supreme Court reforms. What is that commission doing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. So, like, when I started writing my book, this was right before we went into lockdown, and it was the end of kind of a lost decade in Congress. So from 2011, when Republicans took over the House"}
{"id": "1035475408", "date": "2021-09-09", "guest": "Ian Millhiser", "title": "SCOTUS Ruling On Texas Abortion Law Could Foreshadow The End Of Roe V. Wade", "question_index": 20, "text": "You cover the Supreme Court. Do you get to talk to any of the justices?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I'm tempted to give a cynical answer here and say not that much because, you know, there aren't a lot of people in that commission who have historically advocated for reforming the Supreme Cou"}
{"id": "1035475408", "date": "2021-09-09", "guest": "Ian Millhiser", "title": "SCOTUS Ruling On Texas Abortion Law Could Foreshadow The End Of Roe V. Wade", "question_index": 21, "text": "Well, Ian Millhiser, I want to thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very rarely and never on the record. I mean, the interesting thing about the Supreme Court is, like, once every few years, some journalist will either get a sit-down interview with a justice that reve"}
{"id": "1035475408", "date": "2021-09-09", "guest": "Ian Millhiser", "title": "SCOTUS Ruling On Texas Abortion Law Could Foreshadow The End Of Roe V. Wade", "question_index": 22, "text": "Ian Millhiser covers the Supreme Court for Vox and is the author of \"The Agenda: How A Republican Supreme Court Is Reshaping America.\" We recorded our interview yesterday. After we take a short break, book critic Maureen Corrigan will review \"Beautiful World, Where Are You?,\" the new novel by Sally Rooney, who also wrote the novel \"Normal People,\" which was adapted into a Hulu TV series. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right. Thank you so much for having me."}
{"id": "1037864210", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 0, "text": "Jean Smart, welcome to FRESH AIR. It's a pleasure to have you on the show. You're terrific in this, as you've been...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Deborah Vance) Oh, look who's talking. I just got a TED Talk about yours."}
{"id": "1037864210", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 1, "text": "Yeah, for so long. So, you know, you've done a lot of comedy, but this is the first time you've played a comic. Do you have any favorite jokes of the bad jokes that your character tells?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1037864210", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 2, "text": "'Cause they're both funny and bad at the same time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1037864210", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 3, "text": "Are there things you related to about the generational conflict in this, you know, 'cause, you know, the young comic who starts writing for your character thinks of herself as so, like, you know, cutting edge and a little transgressive. And she really has kind of contempt for your character 'cause it represents everything that she - that the younger comic doesn't want to be.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure. You know, I mean, I don't think of her jokes as bad, necessarily. It's just that, you know, she's sort of got her stock-style jokes. She knows her audience really well, and she knows what th"}
{"id": "1037864210", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 4, "text": "Is there a generational conflict that's similar for actors, either about the material that's acceptable in a play or movie or TV show, or how standards have changed for the language you can use and what you can talk about and how sexual you can get?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know, she - it's just sort of funny to watch them, you know, navigate this. They come from completely different worlds, or at least seemingly at first. And Hannah actually is a stand-up comic so"}
{"id": "1037864210", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure. Oh, sure, yes. I used to make a joke to friends. I'd say I would never do any kind of nudity while my parents were still alive, but they lived so long that now I'm at the age where no one as"}
{"id": "1037864210", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 6, "text": "So your new series \"Hacks,\" the comedy series, starts on HBO Max on Thursday. Meanwhile, there's, I think, three episodes left of \"Mare Of Easttown,\" the series that you're co-starring in on HBO that's part crime drama and part family drama. Kate Winslet plays Mare Sheehan, who's a police detective trying to solve a murder. But there's a lot going on in her personal life. Her son died by suicide, leaving behind his young son, who Mare is raising because the boy's mother has been in rehab. You've moved in. You're Mare's mother, and you've moved in with Mare to help her raise the grandson, your great-grandson. But you and Mare are afraid that you're about to lose custody because the boy's mother is getting out of rehab. You've been trying to prepare him for the likelihood he'll be returning to his mother. And that's made Mare very angry with you because she wants to keep custody. And let's hear a clip in which she's showing how angry she is that you're trying to prepare him to go back to his mother.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know? So that kind of took care of it right there. But certainly, obviously, things have changed dramatically. I guess part of that's just natural evolution of anything, you know, when you look"}
{"id": "1037864210", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 7, "text": "Wow, that's - you're really good in this. How did you get the part?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Helen) And she stays clean and takes her meds. She's his mother. She's the mother. She'll get custody. And there's not a damn thing you or I can do about it."}
{"id": "1037864210", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 8, "text": "So \"Mare Of Easttown\" is set in Delaware County, Pa., just outside of Philadelphia. And Delaware County has some pretty wealthy neighborhoods and some working-class suburbs. And you probably saw this or at least heard about it, that \"Saturday Night Live\" did a parody of the accents.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They offered it to me. It was lovely. And I said, HBO? Kate Winslet? Unless I really hate the part, I'll say yes right now. But I love their relationship because - I mean, even though it's a bit dysfu"}
{"id": "1037864210", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 9, "text": "Did you see it, of the accents of \"Mare Of Easttown?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1037864210", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yeah. And she's the one who got the brunt of the", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1037864210", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 11, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1037864210", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 12, "text": "...Of the satire in this. And the premise of the show is that instead of saying murder and daughter, because of the, perhaps, overly exaggerated Philadelphia accent, it's like - I can't even do it right - murder and daughter. Yeah, you do it. You do it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was hilarious."}
{"id": "1037864210", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 13, "text": "So did you have, like, an accent coach?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", I don't know quite where they were going with some of it. But, yes, they called it \"Murdur Durdur\" - murder, daughter. But, yes, like, one of the examples of that accent is the way they say water. I"}
{"id": "1037864210", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 14, "text": "You've played, like, brassy, cynical, sarcastic women in comedies and in dramas. In Entertainment Weekly, you were described as the reigning Meryl Streep of tough broad-types.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview recorded last spring with Jean Smart. She's been nominated for two Emmys, one for her starring role in the HBO Max comedy series \"Hacks\" and anot"}
{"id": "1037864210", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 15, "text": "So I want to play an example of that. And this is from your role in \"Fargo,\" when you played the matriarch of a crime family that controls Fargo. And you've taken over from your husband after he had a debilitating stroke. Meanwhile, the Kansas City mafia made an offer to take over your operation. And in this scene, you meet the gangster representing the Kansas City family. And you make a counteroffer, an offer for a partnership between their family and your crime family. So in this scene, you're laying out the terms of your deal and then warn him not to underestimate you. And the mobster from Kansas City is played by Brad Garrett. You speak first.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview recorded last spring with Jean Smart. She's been nominated for two Emmys, one for her starring role in the HBO Max comedy series \"Hacks\" and anot"}
{"id": "1037864210", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 16, "text": "You must have loved that speech when you read it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Floyd) No. My husband would have killed you where you stood the first time you met. So be glad you're talking to his wife."}
{"id": "1037864210", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 17, "text": "So I'm going to squeeze in one more clip. This is from \"Frasier.\" This is the role that you won two Emmys for. And you're hilarious in this. So for people who don't know the sitcom \"Frasier,\" Frasier is a psychiatrist who has a radio advice call-in show. And you played Lana Lynley, who was one of the most popular and pretty girls in high school. And Frasier had a crush on you. And now, years later, you run into each other at a cafe. And you're a fan of his radio show. You hit it off. And you end up spending the night together. And this is, like, Frasier's high school dream come true.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I did. That was the speech they gave you to audition with for Noah. And I said, that tells me so much about this person."}
{"id": "1037864210", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 18, "text": "And in the morning, you wake up in his bed. You still have a glass of wine on the night table next to you, which you used in the scene I'm about to play to swallow some pills later in the scene. And so you wake up in the morning together. Things are still dreamy between the two of you until - OK. Here is the scene. You speak first.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1037864210", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 19, "text": "Oh, you're so good in that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Lana) Oh, this is nice."}
{"id": "1037864210", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 20, "text": "What do you think about when you hear that back?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Lana) Oh, this is nice."}
{"id": "1037864210", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 21, "text": "Did it say in the script, get louder every time you say put your brother on? Or was that something you just figured out you should do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it was so much fun. That was the first episode I did as that character, and it was my favorite one."}
{"id": "1037864210", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 22, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1037864210", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 23, "text": "You were so good in that scene they brought you back for another season. And that - it's the second season that you won an Emmy for that role. So you grew up in Seattle - right? - where \"Frasier\" was set. How did you get interested in acting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What? Oh, dear. OK. You know? People still come up and say, put your brother on the phone. It's like..."}
{"id": "1037864210", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 24, "text": "When you were getting started, what were some of your day jobs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But he liked me. And so I really got bitten by the bug. So I told my parents that I wanted to major in theater in college. And my mother was not too happy with me. But after I started doing some plays"}
{"id": "1037864210", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 25, "text": "Mmm hmm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You mean after I got out of college?"}
{"id": "1037864210", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 26, "text": "You never - you were able to make a living acting right from the start?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm embarrassed to say I never had another day job."}
{"id": "1037864210", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 27, "text": "How'd you do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It wasn't much of a living, but yeah."}
{"id": "1037864210", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 28, "text": "Did you go through any fallow periods where you thought, I'm never going to get a role again?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there's a lot of professional theater in Seattle. And between Seattle and the Oregon Shakespeare Festival in Ashland, Ore., where I would do summers, I managed to just get by. You know? You'd al"}
{"id": "1037864210", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "Hannah Einbinder", "title": "From 'Designing Women' To 'Hacks', Jean Smart's Career Is Still Going Strong", "question_index": 29, "text": "Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The only time that springs to mind that that happened, ironically, was after \"Fargo.\" I, you know, got great reviews. The show was a big hit. I think I won the Critics Choice Award for that role - and"}
{"id": "1037872569", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "George Wein", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers George Wein, Founder Of The Newport Jazz Festival", "question_index": 0, "text": "As opposed to - what kind of clubs had you performed in that weren't very friendly to musicians?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess I wanted to make a living. I didn't know much about what I was going to do for my life. But I wanted it to be known as a musician's club, a club owned by someone that loved the music, was part"}
{"id": "1037872569", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "George Wein", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers George Wein, Founder Of The Newport Jazz Festival", "question_index": 1, "text": "You write in your book, I didn't know what it was like to be the man until opening Storyville. Suddenly, I was in the position of hiring musicians, most of whom were older than I was and often famous. Many were African Americans who had an inherent distrust of whites, never mind white nightclub owners. What were some of the difficulties you faced being the man?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Most of the clubs were people - owned by individuals who had a liquor license. And they wanted to sell liquor and put in music, hoping that they'd draw some people."}
{"id": "1037872569", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "George Wein", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers George Wein, Founder Of The Newport Jazz Festival", "question_index": 2, "text": "Well, how did you learn to gain the musicians' trust?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The basic thing was that I loved these musicians, and I found out that they did not love me. I was, as I say, the man. And I would ask them things, and they just would look at me with a blank stare so"}
{"id": "1037872569", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "George Wein", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers George Wein, Founder Of The Newport Jazz Festival", "question_index": 3, "text": "Wait, wait. You intentionally bounced a check on him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a good question. And every musician had a different reason. I was talking about Thelonious Monk having - being on the road with him when I had to run up and down the stairs five or six times to"}
{"id": "1037872569", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "George Wein", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers George Wein, Founder Of The Newport Jazz Festival", "question_index": 4, "text": "Did it bother you to have to sometimes play the heavy with musicians who you kind of idolized?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no. I intentionally bounced it because he didn't play the play the job. And he figured that I had paid him in - two days before the job. And I bounced the check on him. And he says, well, why did "}
{"id": "1037872569", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "George Wein", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers George Wein, Founder Of The Newport Jazz Festival", "question_index": 5, "text": "Your wife is African American.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I never really played the heavy except when it actually was necessary. Basically, I established a rapport with them. I found out that they respected me for playing the piano. And then when I marri"}
{"id": "1037872569", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "George Wein", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers George Wein, Founder Of The Newport Jazz Festival", "question_index": 6, "text": "You have hired many of your idols over the years to play at festivals and to play in your club when you owned it. Did some of your idols not really remain your idols because you saw their behavior offstage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My wife is African American. We've been married since 1959, which is a long time since we'd have been put in jail in 25% of the states at that time."}
{"id": "1037872569", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "George Wein", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers George Wein, Founder Of The Newport Jazz Festival", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I used to say to Stan Getz - I said, Stan, how can you be so evil and play so beautifully?"}
{"id": "1037872569", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "George Wein", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers George Wein, Founder Of The Newport Jazz Festival", "question_index": 8, "text": "What kind of behavior did he display that led you to call him evil?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1037872569", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "George Wein", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers George Wein, Founder Of The Newport Jazz Festival", "question_index": 9, "text": "Did he lie to you about performances that you expected him to play?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...What evil is. He treated musicians badly. He treated club owners badly. He was involved with drugs. And he was - you couldn't trust his word. And you had to be very careful with him. But he was a g"}
{"id": "1037872569", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "George Wein", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers George Wein, Founder Of The Newport Jazz Festival", "question_index": 10, "text": "Now, when you were running Storyville, there was something of an alcohol scandal that you discovered. Describe what happened.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I loved him. I really did. And at the end, we were very close friends."}
{"id": "1037872569", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "George Wein", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers George Wein, Founder Of The Newport Jazz Festival", "question_index": 11, "text": "So you were able to open the club again in a different location?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I leased a room from a hotel. I didn't own a liquor license, and we were buying the liquor from the hotel. The next thing I know, my bartenders were telling me that I was getting Johnnie Walker Black "}
{"id": "1037872569", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "George Wein", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers George Wein, Founder Of The Newport Jazz Festival", "question_index": 12, "text": "You gave up your club, Storyville, and then ended up starting the Newport Jazz Festival. So what was your first concept of the out-of-doors summer jazz festival?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We opened about eight weeks later, never caught the atmosphere that we had when we first opened, which was quite sensational for six weeks. But as the years went on, we played the greatest artists in "}
{"id": "1037872569", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "George Wein", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers George Wein, Founder Of The Newport Jazz Festival", "question_index": 13, "text": "What were your first thoughts about getting good sound outside?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The concept was to present jazz from J to Z. I always had that feeling, so I presented a group like with Eddie Condon and Wild Bill Davis and on the same bill with Lee Konitz and Lennie Tristano. And "}
{"id": "1037872569", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "George Wein", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers George Wein, Founder Of The Newport Jazz Festival", "question_index": 14, "text": "One of the most famous performances at a Newport Jazz Festival was the Duke Ellington performance in 1956. Why was this a turning point in Ellington's career?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview from 2003 with pioneering music promoter George Wein. The creator of the long-running Newport Jazz Festival and Newport Folk Festival, died Monda"}
{"id": "1037872569", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "George Wein", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers George Wein, Founder Of The Newport Jazz Festival", "question_index": 15, "text": "The musical centerpiece of that night was a performance of \"Diminuendo In Blue,\" and the saxophonist Paul Gonsalves blew about 27 choruses on that in his solo. That's a lot of choruses. That's a long time. What were you thinking when his solo went on and on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ellington, to me, was a god always. I didn't realize that he wasn't doing business wherever he went. Well, he would - made a record of this incredible performance. It was recorded. And it was the bigg"}
{"id": "1037872569", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "George Wein", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers George Wein, Founder Of The Newport Jazz Festival", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, let's hear part of the Paul Gonsalves solo on \"Diminuendo In Blue.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was worried about crowd control because I saw the crowd coming towards the stage and standing up. But really, there was no serious problem. I think the record shows that I was saying, Duke, take it "}
{"id": "1037872569", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "George Wein", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers George Wein, Founder Of The Newport Jazz Festival", "question_index": 17, "text": "That's Paul Gonsalves soloing on Duke Ellington's \"Diminuendo In Blue\" in the Ellington band's performance at the 1956 Newport Jazz Festival. My guest, George Wein, was the creator of the Newport Jazz Festival and many other festivals. Well, George Wein, a little later in that evening, the Duke Ellington performance was going on and on. You wanted the performance to end, and Ellington wasn't ending it. Why were you anxious to wrap things up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was worried about crowd control because I saw the crowd coming towards the stage and standing up. But really, there was no serious problem. I think the record shows that I was saying, Duke, take it "}
{"id": "1037872569", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "George Wein", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers George Wein, Founder Of The Newport Jazz Festival", "question_index": 18, "text": "He did the right thing in keeping going and not listening to you to stop?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was anxious because I was concerned that - it was the first time I ever felt any nervousness about a crowd. And I don't remember it that well. I really recollected from the recording where my voice "}
{"id": "1037872569", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "George Wein", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers George Wein, Founder Of The Newport Jazz Festival", "question_index": 19, "text": "Let me play the track that's called \"Riot Control\" on the CD version of this 1956 Newport concert. And here you are at the mic trying to end the concert as people start booing you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. I mean, you know, look. I'm only me. I mean, Duke Ellington is Duke Ellington. He did know a little bit more than I did. I was very young, and I was learning from him every minute."}
{"id": "1037872569", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "George Wein", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers George Wein, Founder Of The Newport Jazz Festival", "question_index": 20, "text": "George Wein, what's it like to stand before thousands and thousands of people who are booing you because you want to end the concert?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's it. (JEERING)"}
{"id": "1037872569", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "George Wein", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers George Wein, Founder Of The Newport Jazz Festival", "question_index": 21, "text": "At the Newport Jazz Festival, when you started the festival, were the audiences pretty integrated? Because there were obviously Black and white fans for the performance that you were presenting, but it was an area of New England that, I think, was very predominantly white.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I never was a great baseball player, so I don't know what it was to strike out with the bases loaded. But I really didn't hear the booing. I mean, in all honesty, you don't hear those things. Your min"}
{"id": "1037872569", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "George Wein", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers George Wein, Founder Of The Newport Jazz Festival", "question_index": 22, "text": "OK. Well, you not only did the Newport Jazz Festival, you created the Newport Folk Festival. Were you interested in folk music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We had a small percentage of blacks at the beginning of the festival. There were always blacks that liked jazz. They were never a mass. The mass audience was usually white. We had a few racial problem"}
{"id": "1037872569", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "George Wein", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers George Wein, Founder Of The Newport Jazz Festival", "question_index": 23, "text": "Why don't you share one of your personal high points from the Newport Folk Festival?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm interested in all musics, including opera and symphony and folk music and world music. I love artistry. Artistry is what draws me. I used to play a lot of folk artists. In Storyville, we're needin"}
{"id": "1037872569", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "George Wein", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers George Wein, Founder Of The Newport Jazz Festival", "question_index": 24, "text": "One of the most famous moments from the Newport Folk Festival was when Bob Dylan performed with his band. And they used amplifiers. So it was electric. Dylan had gone electric.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that one of the personal high points was when we brought this - a tin whistle player from South Africa, Spokes Mashiyane. He went on the stage. And we used to have 15,000 people at that time, "}
{"id": "1037872569", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "George Wein", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers George Wein, Founder Of The Newport Jazz Festival", "question_index": 25, "text": "Yeah. And a lot of his fans felt betrayed that one of their, you know, folk music heroes had now plugged in. What were you thinking when he plugged in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was the expression, Dylan went electric."}
{"id": "1037872569", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "George Wein", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers George Wein, Founder Of The Newport Jazz Festival", "question_index": 26, "text": "Why did your instincts tell you he should go back onstage and play something acoustic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was a time I was aware of the booing. Some people have tried to write that there wasn't any booing. There was a lot of booing. And there was a lot of consternation backstage. And there were legen"}
{"id": "1037872569", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "George Wein", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers George Wein, Founder Of The Newport Jazz Festival", "question_index": 27, "text": "If you really thought it was great, you wouldn't have used the word lemmings", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had to - again, I was not concerned with the riot, but I was concerned with the crowd, the feeling of the crowd. It was a terrible disappointment to the real Dylan fans who didn't know anything abou"}
{"id": "1037872569", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "George Wein", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers George Wein, Founder Of The Newport Jazz Festival", "question_index": 28, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had to - again, I was not concerned with the riot, but I was concerned with the crowd, the feeling of the crowd. It was a terrible disappointment to the real Dylan fans who didn't know anything abou"}
{"id": "1037872569", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "George Wein", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers George Wein, Founder Of The Newport Jazz Festival", "question_index": 29, "text": "You've seen many of the musicians who you've loved most, who you were closest with and who were among the greatest musicians, you know, in the history of the music - you've seen many of them die. Do you ever feel lonely out there - like, you've outlived so many of the people who you came up with?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're listening back to Terry's interview from 2003 with pioneering music promoter George Wein. The creator of the long-running Newport Jazz Festival and Newport Folk Festival died "}
{"id": "1037872569", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "George Wein", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers George Wein, Founder Of The Newport Jazz Festival", "question_index": 30, "text": "In writing this memoir, you had to pick through your mind and hopefully some journals that you had - if, in fact, you had any journals - in order to revive the past, you know, as you lived it. What was that process like for you of trying to remember things that happened to you over the years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It isn't that I feel lonely. But sometimes I hear music, and it's talking to me, and I literally get tears in my eyes and - 'cause the music means so much to me. And having known so many of these grea"}
{"id": "1037872569", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "George Wein", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers George Wein, Founder Of The Newport Jazz Festival", "question_index": 31, "text": "What were you writing him about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The process of remembering was relatively easy 'cause I only remembered what I remembered. A lot of that sounds strange. But what I remembered, I remembered vividly. And that's what I put down. The th"}
{"id": "1037872569", "date": "2021-09-17", "guest": "George Wein", "title": "'Fresh Air' Remembers George Wein, Founder Of The Newport Jazz Festival", "question_index": 32, "text": "Well, George Wein, I want to thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that we made an offer for a European trip, and he was he was holding me off, you know? And we were - he wouldn't get - couldn't get an answer out of him. And I said, look; if the other guy gives"}
{"id": "1038924736", "date": "2021-09-20", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "America Is Divided. Evan Osnos' 'Wildland' Looks At How That Happened", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. How did America become so divided? Why is there so much rage and fear? How did the gap grow so large between the wealthiest and everyone else? And why did we come so close to overturning the results of a presidential election? These are some of the questions my guest, Evan Osnos, grapples with in his new book \"Wildland: The Making Of America's Fury.\" Osnos is also the author of a book about Joe Biden. He covers politics and foreign affairs for The New Yorker, where he's a staff writer. He was the magazine's China correspondent from 2008 to 2013. His first book, \"Age Of Ambition: Chasing Fortune, Truth, And Faith In The New China,\" won a 2014 National Book Award. His new book \"Wildland\" reports on three different places that he's lived in. In Clarksburg, W.Va., coal country, where he started his journalism career working for a local paper, he considers what was gained and lost when some of America's wealthiest people tapped the natural resources beneath the homes of some of the poorest people in America. In Greenwich, where he grew up, he writes about how it became the hedge fund capital of the world and how that world of money affected American capitalism and politics. In Chicago, where he formerly wrote for the Tribune, he looks at the compounded effects of American segregation on health and wealth. Evan Osnos, welcome back to FRESH AIR. It's always a treat to have you on the show. Since you've written about West Virginia in your new book and you have a long article about Joe Manchin that you wrote a few months ago in The New Yorker, I want to ask you about Joe Manchin, Democratic senator from West Virginia, now in his third term. In some ways, he controls the Democratic Party now. They need his vote to pass legislation including voting rights and infrastructure. And he's insisting on bipartisanship when it's clear that that is not on Mitch McConnell's agenda. McConnell has made it clear that he basically wants to block the Biden administration agenda. He made it very clear that his goal No. 1 was to block Obama when Obama was president. So what is this bipartisanship insistence about, in your mind, when it's fair to assume that Manchin knows, as well as anybody else, that the Republican Party isn't into bipartisanship right now?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1038924736", "date": "2021-09-20", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "America Is Divided. Evan Osnos' 'Wildland' Looks At How That Happened", "question_index": 1, "text": "So, you know, his record - he's had some success in persuading fellow Democrats to moderate their bills...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think Joe Manchin is responding to a couple of pieces from his life. Number one, he grew up in a state that was all Democrats for a very long time. And as recently as the year 2000, the congressiona"}
{"id": "1038924736", "date": "2021-09-20", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "America Is Divided. Evan Osnos' 'Wildland' Looks At How That Happened", "question_index": 2, "text": "...To suit his needs and his constituents' needs or what he thinks his constituents' needs are. But has he ever won over - you know, in the recent past, has he ever won over Republicans in the Senate?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1038924736", "date": "2021-09-20", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "America Is Divided. Evan Osnos' 'Wildland' Looks At How That Happened", "question_index": 3, "text": "You - I hadn't seen this myself, but you write that his website boasted that he voted with the Trump administration 74% of the time and that no senator, Democratic or Republican, split with their party more often than he did. So I'm sure Democrats weren't happy to read that on his website.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. He holds out hope for it, but we don't see examples of him being able to do it. I think he believes that, really, the role that he's playing is actually less about persuading Republicans to come o"}
{"id": "1038924736", "date": "2021-09-20", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "America Is Divided. Evan Osnos' 'Wildland' Looks At How That Happened", "question_index": 4, "text": "You write that there's been a lot of pressure on Manchin from the right, including from the Koch network of foundations and businesses and activist groups. So what is that pressure like? And what impact do you think that's had on Manchin?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he's proud of it. Look. He is this very strange, small species left in American politics. He's a Democrat in a sea of red in West Virginia. And the general understanding is that for the near ter"}
{"id": "1038924736", "date": "2021-09-20", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "America Is Divided. Evan Osnos' 'Wildland' Looks At How That Happened", "question_index": 5, "text": "I want to ask you about an ad that Joe mentioned, a TV ad back in 2010, and it has to do with basically - literally shooting legislation. Can you - could you describe this TV ad?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They, at some points, have called for things like protests in the state capital of Charleston, trying to pressure him to be more responsive. And look. He knows this. He follows it. Manchin is a kind o"}
{"id": "1038924736", "date": "2021-09-20", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "America Is Divided. Evan Osnos' 'Wildland' Looks At How That Happened", "question_index": 6, "text": "Did you ask Manchin about that ad?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. In 2010 he posted something that turned out to be kind of a landmark in political advertising. People had been holding guns in political ads for years, but he took it a step further. And in his "}
{"id": "1038924736", "date": "2021-09-20", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "America Is Divided. Evan Osnos' 'Wildland' Looks At How That Happened", "question_index": 7, "text": "So Joe Manchin spent a lot of his career as a coal broker in the energy world. I'm not sure what a coal broker means, but who benefited from that company? And did coal miners - did working people benefit from the kind of work that the company did?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I spoke to the person who came up with the ad, actually, one of his advisers. And he remembers they were not doing all that well in the campaign. It was late at night, and they were on a call. And thi"}
{"id": "1038924736", "date": "2021-09-20", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "America Is Divided. Evan Osnos' 'Wildland' Looks At How That Happened", "question_index": 8, "text": "Tell us more about the questions that drove this book, the things you wanted to learn from reporting on three cities - Greenwich, Conn., Clarksburg, W.Va., and Chicago.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As a coal broker, Joe Manchin's job was partly about lining up buyers and sellers. And so he operated very deeply in the coal industry. And, you know, I think you would hear different answers to the q"}
{"id": "1038924736", "date": "2021-09-20", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "America Is Divided. Evan Osnos' 'Wildland' Looks At How That Happened", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Evan Osnos. He reports on politics and foreign affairs for The New Yorker. His new book is called \"Wildland: The Making Of America's Fury.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think, in some ways, what really fascinated me was not only the degree of distance and seclusion and separation. In some ways, we know that. We know that we're polarized. What really surprised me wa"}
{"id": "1038924736", "date": "2021-09-20", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "America Is Divided. Evan Osnos' 'Wildland' Looks At How That Happened", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Evan Osnos. He reports on politics and foreign affairs for The New Yorker. His new book, \"Wildland: The Making Of America's Fury,\" examines how America became so divided and angry and close to overturning democracy. Two of the places that you write about are such interesting contrasts because there's, you know, Greenwich, Conn., which is the hedge fund capital of the world, and Clarksburg, W.Va., which is a struggling town. It's coal country. They've lost jobs. They have lost other businesses. They've lost population. How did they each go in terms of voting for Trump?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think, in some ways, what really fascinated me was not only the degree of distance and seclusion and separation. In some ways, we know that. We know that we're polarized. What really surprised me wa"}
{"id": "1038924736", "date": "2021-09-20", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "America Is Divided. Evan Osnos' 'Wildland' Looks At How That Happened", "question_index": 11, "text": "So did Trump do anything that actually improved the lives of people in Clarksburg, W.Va?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that fact actually gets to one of the things that is a surprise when you look now at the Trump phenomenon. At the time, it was sometimes described that Trump was like a hostile takeover of the R"}
{"id": "1038924736", "date": "2021-09-20", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "America Is Divided. Evan Osnos' 'Wildland' Looks At How That Happened", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, let's take a break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Evan Osnos. He's a staff writer for The New Yorker, where he covers foreign affairs and politics. His new book is called \"Wildland: The Making Of America's Fury.\" We'll be back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, for a period of time, he created a regulatory environment that would promote the exploration for natural gas. And so some people did benefit from that. There were jobs that were created that had"}
{"id": "1038924736", "date": "2021-09-20", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "America Is Divided. Evan Osnos' 'Wildland' Looks At How That Happened", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Evan Osnos. He reports on politics and foreign affairs for The New Yorker. His new book, \"Wildland: The Making Of America's Fury,\" examines how America became so divided and angry and close to overturning democracy. He reports on three cities that he's lived in, Greenwich, Conn., which became the hedge fund capital of the world, Clarksburg, W.V., coal country, and Chicago, which, like so much of America, is still dealing with the legacy of slavery and segregation. You not only profiled Joe Manchin for The New Yorker, you wrote a whole book on Joe Biden. So Manchin and Biden have worked together since 2010, when Manchin was elected to the Senate. Biden was already serving as vice president under Obama. And now Biden is president. Can you tell us a little bit about the history of their relationship?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, for a period of time, he created a regulatory environment that would promote the exploration for natural gas. And so some people did benefit from that. There were jobs that were created that had"}
{"id": "1038924736", "date": "2021-09-20", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "America Is Divided. Evan Osnos' 'Wildland' Looks At How That Happened", "question_index": 14, "text": "So what are you looking out for now in the political landscape with Joe Manchin and the Democratic Party?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. They actually sort of understand each other in a way because, let's be honest, these are two Catholic Joes in their 70s, both white men who came out of a certain kind of politics in which, for B"}
{"id": "1038924736", "date": "2021-09-20", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "America Is Divided. Evan Osnos' 'Wildland' Looks At How That Happened", "question_index": 15, "text": "In your writing, you had an interesting set of bookends to the Trump presidency. When Trump announced that he was going to run for president. You, at the time, were covering the far right. You were writing about white nationalists. And you happened to be talking to white nationalists at that time. And they were telling you why they were so excited at the prospect of Trump running for president and possibly even winning. And they knew that Trump might not define himself as a sympathizer with them. But some of the causes that he was espousing, like anti-immigration, was at the center of their beliefs. White nationalists don't want immigration. White nationalists don't like Muslims in America. And then, at the end of the Trump presidency, you covered the January 6 attack on the Capitol. I was wondering if any of the people who you spoke to when Trump announced, any of those white nationalists ended up being at the attack on the Capitol on January 6.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think there in a way is this moment in which Joe Biden is pulled between these two very different political conceptions of what the Democratic Party is. You have Bernie Sanders on one end, who"}
{"id": "1038924736", "date": "2021-09-20", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "America Is Divided. Evan Osnos' 'Wildland' Looks At How That Happened", "question_index": 16, "text": "You've reported from so many places. Have you ever reported from a place where lies grew in very fertile territory, where conspiracy theories grew, and then truth won out in the long run? Does, like, truth ever win out once conspiracy theories and lies get so deeply rooted in a culture?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I will tell you the thing that surprised me most, actually, about having been through that first experience and then being at the Capitol on January 6 was that those white nationalists who I'd m"}
{"id": "1038924736", "date": "2021-09-20", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "America Is Divided. Evan Osnos' 'Wildland' Looks At How That Happened", "question_index": 17, "text": "Well, let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Evan Osnos. He reports on politics and foreign affairs for The New Yorker. His new book is called \"Wildland: The Making Of America's Fury.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It worries me, honestly, Terry. I think it is really hard to bring people back into some sense of faith in a system, but it's actually not impossible. I think one of the things that has encouraged me "}
{"id": "1038924736", "date": "2021-09-20", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "America Is Divided. Evan Osnos' 'Wildland' Looks At How That Happened", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Evan Osnos. He reports on politics and foreign affairs for The New Yorker. His new book \"Wildland: The Making Of America's Fury\" examines how America became so divided and angry and close to overturning democracy. So I'm going to change the subject here and get to something that you write about in your new book, which is that your great-grandfather was shot in Chicago on the South Side in the early 1900s. First, briefly tell us the story of how he was shot.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It worries me, honestly, Terry. I think it is really hard to bring people back into some sense of faith in a system, but it's actually not impossible. I think one of the things that has encouraged me "}
{"id": "1038924736", "date": "2021-09-20", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "America Is Divided. Evan Osnos' 'Wildland' Looks At How That Happened", "question_index": 19, "text": "Was this a story that was talked about a lot in the family?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Albert Sherer was his name. And he was coming home late at night with some other students, and they were at the University of Chicago in 1905. And the other students went one way, and he started"}
{"id": "1038924736", "date": "2021-09-20", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "America Is Divided. Evan Osnos' 'Wildland' Looks At How That Happened", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yeah. So you researched the story of the young man who shot your father, and then you tracked down his granddaughter, who didn't know about this story because when this young man, at an older age, got out of prison, he changed his life. He changed his identity. He changed his name. So she didn't know about this part of his past. Was it a hard decision for you to tell her? Like, did you know when you approached her that she didn't know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it kind of lurked in the family memory - not much. I just had heard about it. And it was a long time, actually, before I decided I wanted to understand a little more of what happened. And so I c"}
{"id": "1038924736", "date": "2021-09-20", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "America Is Divided. Evan Osnos' 'Wildland' Looks At How That Happened", "question_index": 21, "text": "So one more question - you had written after January 6 that democracy in America had come closer to failure than many Americans ever imagined. Now that Robert Costa and Bob Woodward of The Washington Post report in their new book that Vice President Mike Pence spoke with former Vice President Dan Quayle to ask Quayle whether there was any way of stopping certification of the presidential election, do you feel like you didn't realize how close democracy came to failing in the U.S.?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, actually. I assumed that the family did know. I guess I'd sort of always imagined that this was something that they might have heard about. And I was calling actually because I thought maybe I wou"}
{"id": "1038924736", "date": "2021-09-20", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "America Is Divided. Evan Osnos' 'Wildland' Looks At How That Happened", "question_index": 22, "text": "Evan Osnos, it is always such a pleasure to have you on our show. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. You know, there was this realization that I had after January 6 that there was these really slender moments that saved the democracy - something as fragile as the secretary of state of Geo"}
{"id": "1038924736", "date": "2021-09-20", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "America Is Divided. Evan Osnos' 'Wildland' Looks At How That Happened", "question_index": 23, "text": "Evan Osnos covers politics and foreign affairs for The New Yorker and is the author of the new book \"Wildland: The Making Of America's Fury.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much, Terry."}
{"id": "1040081678", "date": "2021-09-23", "guest": "Jeff Horwitz", "title": "What Leaked Internal Documents Reveal About The Damage Facebook Has Caused", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Internal Facebook documents were leaked by a whistleblower and acquired by my guest Jeff Horwitz, a technology reporter for The Wall Street Journal. He's the lead reporter for The Journal's new series of articles called \"The Facebook Files.\" This series details how Facebook executives are aware of the ways the platform causes harm, but executives often lack the will or the ability to address them. The series reveals how a separate set of rules has been applied to VIP users like celebrities and politicians, allowing them to at least briefly escape restrictions and penalties that are applied to other users. Facebook's own researchers are aware that Instagram, which is owned by Facebook, has negative effects on the self-image and mental health of many teenage girls. Internal documents also reveal that Facebook researchers have warned the company's executives that the platform is used in developing countries for human trafficking, drug-dealing and to promote ethnic violence. The company's CEO, Mark Zuckerberg, has made it a goal to promote the COVID-19 vaccine, but his researchers have pointed out that that effort is being undermined by commenters spreading misinformation. At least some of the leaked internal documents have been turned over by the whistleblower to the Securities and Exchange Commission and to Congress. Jeff Horwitz, welcome to FRESH AIR. Congratulations on the series, which isn't over yet", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1040081678", "date": "2021-09-23", "guest": "Jeff Horwitz", "title": "What Leaked Internal Documents Reveal About The Damage Facebook Has Caused", "question_index": 1, "text": ". You're still - there's more to come. So what are these internal documents that were leaked?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1040081678", "date": "2021-09-23", "guest": "Jeff Horwitz", "title": "What Leaked Internal Documents Reveal About The Damage Facebook Has Caused", "question_index": 2, "text": "And what you're talking about is researchers from Facebook who report to executives and tell them what's going on. And often what they've told them is that this platform is backfiring. It's causing harm for these and these reasons.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So this is a collection of internal research notes, executive presentations, in some cases company audits of its own practices that provide a pretty clear sense of how Facebook sees itself and the com"}
{"id": "1040081678", "date": "2021-09-23", "guest": "Jeff Horwitz", "title": "What Leaked Internal Documents Reveal About The Damage Facebook Has Caused", "question_index": 3, "text": "Now, are the obstacles a lack of will? Or are the obstacles that Facebook is so big and there are so many users that it is hard to control, even if you want to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, exactly. I think it's important to draw a distinction between sort of irate watercooler chat and people letting off steam about things that don't really involve them at the company versus this s"}
{"id": "1040081678", "date": "2021-09-23", "guest": "Jeff Horwitz", "title": "What Leaked Internal Documents Reveal About The Damage Facebook Has Caused", "question_index": 4, "text": "Let's look at the first program you reported on, which is a VIP program called XCheck. This is a program that basically created separate rules for VIPs and for everybody else who uses Facebook. What VIPs have been exempt from certain rules? What kinds of people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that the premise that the company is just too big to be - to regulate itself isn't correct. There are - yes, having nearly 3 billion users is quite a lot of users to have to be in charge of. B"}
{"id": "1040081678", "date": "2021-09-23", "guest": "Jeff Horwitz", "title": "What Leaked Internal Documents Reveal About The Damage Facebook Has Caused", "question_index": 5, "text": "What kind of public embarrassment? What kind of PR fire?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, a lot of them. So Facebook has talked in the past about providing some - a little bit of extra leeway for politicians and fact-checking and misinformation - right? - the idea being that, you know,"}
{"id": "1040081678", "date": "2021-09-23", "guest": "Jeff Horwitz", "title": "What Leaked Internal Documents Reveal About The Damage Facebook Has Caused", "question_index": 6, "text": "Can you give us an example of a post that caused harm or could potentially cause harm that was allowed to stay up for a long time or a brief time because this person was a VIP?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So this can be everything from making a mistake and tangling with, you know, the singer Rihanna's account because she posted a risque French magazine cover to, you know, making an error on something D"}
{"id": "1040081678", "date": "2021-09-23", "guest": "Jeff Horwitz", "title": "What Leaked Internal Documents Reveal About The Damage Facebook Has Caused", "question_index": 7, "text": "There was a 2019 internal review of the XCheck program. What did that review say?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. And there are - so there are a lot of them. Facebook's own analysis of XCheck found that 16.4 billion views of violating content occurred solely because of the lag time in taking down stuff from"}
{"id": "1040081678", "date": "2021-09-23", "guest": "Jeff Horwitz", "title": "What Leaked Internal Documents Reveal About The Damage Facebook Has Caused", "question_index": 8, "text": "What was Facebook executives' reactions after getting this report?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think people inside Facebook did have, on a long-term basis, a sense that exempting users from enforcement and from punishment on the platform was just, like, clearly not the right thing to do. This"}
{"id": "1040081678", "date": "2021-09-23", "guest": "Jeff Horwitz", "title": "What Leaked Internal Documents Reveal About The Damage Facebook Has Caused", "question_index": 9, "text": "Let's talk about anti-vax posts on Facebook. Mark Zuckerberg has made it a priority to promote vaccines and facts about vaccines. But at the same time, Facebook has been used widely to convey anti-vax falsehoods. And you found that internal documents reveal that the anti-vax comments were mostly coming not from the original post, but from commenters. Would you describe what happened with that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Facebook - I mean, no one disputed that XCheck was a mess and that the program was unseemly and was in, you know, direct conflict with what the company had said publicly its rules are. That said, they"}
{"id": "1040081678", "date": "2021-09-23", "guest": "Jeff Horwitz", "title": "What Leaked Internal Documents Reveal About The Damage Facebook Has Caused", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here. And then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jeff Horwitz, who is the lead reporter for The Wall Street Journal's new and ongoing series of articles called \"The Facebook Files.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. And I think a important place to start here is what you said about Mark Zuckerberg and his goals. This is something - fighting COVID was something that Facebook was, perhaps, uniquely inclined a"}
{"id": "1040081678", "date": "2021-09-23", "guest": "Jeff Horwitz", "title": "What Leaked Internal Documents Reveal About The Damage Facebook Has Caused", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jeff Horwitz, who is the lead reporter on a new and ongoing Wall Street Journal series called \"The Facebook Files,\" based on a series of leaked documents from Facebook. These documents detail how Facebook executives are aware of the ways the platform causes harm, but executives often lack the will or the ability to address them. Is it harder to oversee or to apply rules to commenters than it is with people doing the original posts on Facebook?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. And I think a important place to start here is what you said about Mark Zuckerberg and his goals. This is something - fighting COVID was something that Facebook was, perhaps, uniquely inclined a"}
{"id": "1040081678", "date": "2021-09-23", "guest": "Jeff Horwitz", "title": "What Leaked Internal Documents Reveal About The Damage Facebook Has Caused", "question_index": 12, "text": "Internal documents also show that Facebook knew - that it was really a small group responsible for most of the COVID misinformation on Facebook. So what was Facebook's response to this research that was delivered to executives?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This was a bit of a blind spot for the company. They hadn't really ever put that much resources into trying to understand comments, which is kind of funny because Facebook really did engineer its plat"}
{"id": "1040081678", "date": "2021-09-23", "guest": "Jeff Horwitz", "title": "What Leaked Internal Documents Reveal About The Damage Facebook Has Caused", "question_index": 13, "text": "Were these changes effective in stopping misinformation about the vaccine?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So the initial response was just basically horror because they realized that, you know, there were just a very high proportion, not only of comments but also posts in general, that seemed to be "}
{"id": "1040081678", "date": "2021-09-23", "guest": "Jeff Horwitz", "title": "What Leaked Internal Documents Reveal About The Damage Facebook Has Caused", "question_index": 14, "text": "Let's take another break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jeff Horwitz, a technology reporter for The Wall Street Journal who's the lead reporter for The Journal's new series of articles called \"The Facebook Files,\" based on internal Facebook documents that were leaked to The Journal. We'll be back after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's kind of too soon to tell how well they did. Certainly in terms of preventing this stuff from getting traction in the first place, they failed - right? - means that there were, you know - "}
{"id": "1040081678", "date": "2021-09-23", "guest": "Jeff Horwitz", "title": "What Leaked Internal Documents Reveal About The Damage Facebook Has Caused", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Jeff Horwitz, a technology reporter for The Wall Street Journal who's the lead reporter for the Journal's new series of articles called \"The Facebook Files,\" which detail how Facebook executives are aware of the ways the platform causes harm but executives often lack the will or the ability to address them. The series is based on internal Facebook documents that were leaked by a whistleblower to Jeff Horwitz. Let's talk about Instagram, which is owned by Facebook. Internal research from Facebook shows that Instagram could have a very damaging impact on teenage girls' self-image, their anxiety, depression. Why does Instagram sometimes have that effect on teenage girls? - 'cause you write that the algorithms on Instagram create a perfect storm for many teenage girls.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's kind of too soon to tell how well they did. Certainly in terms of preventing this stuff from getting traction in the first place, they failed - right? - means that there were, you know - "}
{"id": "1040081678", "date": "2021-09-23", "guest": "Jeff Horwitz", "title": "What Leaked Internal Documents Reveal About The Damage Facebook Has Caused", "question_index": 16, "text": "What is the way in which algorithms create a perfect storm for teenagers? - 'cause you say that in the article.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So body image issues and social comparison obviously didn't originate with the internet. That said, Facebook's own research found that Instagram had some uniquely harmful features in terms of en"}
{"id": "1040081678", "date": "2021-09-23", "guest": "Jeff Horwitz", "title": "What Leaked Internal Documents Reveal About The Damage Facebook Has Caused", "question_index": 17, "text": "So what you've just described is reported in documents that were written by Facebook researchers and then delivered to Facebook executives. So executives knew what you just told us, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, right. So I think there's some core product mechanics here, which is that Instagram will always show you the most popular and successful posts from your friends and the people you follow and - "}
{"id": "1040081678", "date": "2021-09-23", "guest": "Jeff Horwitz", "title": "What Leaked Internal Documents Reveal About The Damage Facebook Has Caused", "question_index": 18, "text": "But you write that this represents one of the clearest gaps revealed in these internal documents, gaps between Facebook's understanding of itself and its public position.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. And Adam Mosseri, who's the head of Instagram, in fact, commissioned a lot of this research in the first place. So, you know, I think there's some credit that should go to the company for "}
{"id": "1040081678", "date": "2021-09-23", "guest": "Jeff Horwitz", "title": "What Leaked Internal Documents Reveal About The Damage Facebook Has Caused", "question_index": 19, "text": "What was Facebook's reaction to your article about teenagers and Instagram?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Look; I can understand why someone in corporate communications isn't eager to make the sentence, we make body image issues worse in 1 in 3 teen girls, public, much less some of the other things "}
{"id": "1040081678", "date": "2021-09-23", "guest": "Jeff Horwitz", "title": "What Leaked Internal Documents Reveal About The Damage Facebook Has Caused", "question_index": 20, "text": "Well, let's take another short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jeff Horwitz, who is the lead reporter for The Wall Street Journal's new series of articles called \"The Facebook Files.\" We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They defended the research and keeping the research private as necessary for, you know, honest internal discussion. And they, I think, tried to argue a bit with whether or not the conclusions of causa"}
{"id": "1040081678", "date": "2021-09-23", "guest": "Jeff Horwitz", "title": "What Leaked Internal Documents Reveal About The Damage Facebook Has Caused", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jeff Horwitz, a technology reporter for The Wall Street Journal. He's the lead reporter for The Journal's new series of articles called \"The Facebook Files,\" which detail how Facebook executives are aware of the ways the platform causes harm, but executives often lack the will or the ability to address them. The series is based on internal Facebook documents that were leaked by a whistleblower to Jeff Horwitz. One of the articles in the series is headlined \"Facebook Tried To Make Its Platform A Healthier Place. It Got Angrier Instead.\" And this article is about a change that was made in 2018 that rewarded outrage. What was the change?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They defended the research and keeping the research private as necessary for, you know, honest internal discussion. And they, I think, tried to argue a bit with whether or not the conclusions of causa"}
{"id": "1040081678", "date": "2021-09-23", "guest": "Jeff Horwitz", "title": "What Leaked Internal Documents Reveal About The Damage Facebook Has Caused", "question_index": 22, "text": "And news publications, as a result, found that a lot of their traffic was decreasing dramatically. What was the connection?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Facebook promoted something in 2018 called meaningful social interaction. And the idea was that passively scrolling through content wasn't good for people - you know, it just turned them into zombies "}
{"id": "1040081678", "date": "2021-09-23", "guest": "Jeff Horwitz", "title": "What Leaked Internal Documents Reveal About The Damage Facebook Has Caused", "question_index": 23, "text": "Once this was reported to Facebook executives, what actions did the executives take?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So there was some element of this where they were just kind of reducing news overall in feed at the - you know, in other words - and to boost the stuff from friends and family. But I think the type of"}
{"id": "1040081678", "date": "2021-09-23", "guest": "Jeff Horwitz", "title": "What Leaked Internal Documents Reveal About The Damage Facebook Has Caused", "question_index": 24, "text": "What was Facebook's response to this article?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Facebook's attraction to meaningful social interaction as a metric wasn't just that they thought it would be good for people. It's also - they thought it would be good for Facebook. They really needed"}
{"id": "1040081678", "date": "2021-09-23", "guest": "Jeff Horwitz", "title": "What Leaked Internal Documents Reveal About The Damage Facebook Has Caused", "question_index": 25, "text": "So one of your articles in The Journal reports that in developing countries, Facebook was often used by drug cartels, human traffickers, used to promote violence against ethnic groups. And developing countries are actually very important to Facebook now. And why is that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Facebook noted that they had made some changes, which is true. I think the thing that we were very focused on is that people up to and including Mark Zuckerberg kind of resisted anything that was g"}
{"id": "1040081678", "date": "2021-09-23", "guest": "Jeff Horwitz", "title": "What Leaked Internal Documents Reveal About The Damage Facebook Has Caused", "question_index": 26, "text": "Another obstacle that you report is Facebook doesn't have enough people monitoring posts who speak the dialect needed to identify dangerous or criminal uses of Facebook.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "People in poorer countries - they don't provide Facebook much money, but they do provide it with a lot of growth. The Facebook has basically stalled out in developed economies. I mean, there isn't rea"}
{"id": "1040081678", "date": "2021-09-23", "guest": "Jeff Horwitz", "title": "What Leaked Internal Documents Reveal About The Damage Facebook Has Caused", "question_index": 27, "text": "Nick Clegg, who's the Facebook vice president of global affairs, recently published a blog post saying that The Wall Street Journal articles have contained deliberate mischaracterizations of what Facebook is trying to do and conferred egregiously false motives to Facebook's leadership and employees. What's your reaction to that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And this is something that I think - look; like, I think we're all familiar with Facebook's apologies right now, right? Like every couple of months or weeks or days, depending on how closely you"}
{"id": "1040081678", "date": "2021-09-23", "guest": "Jeff Horwitz", "title": "What Leaked Internal Documents Reveal About The Damage Facebook Has Caused", "question_index": 28, "text": "My guest is Jeff Horwitz, who is the lead reporter for The Wall Street Journal's new and ongoing series called \"The Facebook Files.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My reaction is that Facebook has the right to say whatever they would like to say in response to our reporting. I think the more useful reaction to that isn't mine. It's that there actually have been "}
{"id": "1040081678", "date": "2021-09-23", "guest": "Jeff Horwitz", "title": "What Leaked Internal Documents Reveal About The Damage Facebook Has Caused", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jeff Horwitz, a technology reporter for The Wall Street Journal, who's the lead reporter for the Journal's new series of articles called \"The Facebook Files.\" The series details how Facebook executives are aware of the ways the platform causes harm. But the series also says executives have often lacked the will or the ability to address those problems. The series is based on internal Facebook documents that were leaked by a whistleblower to Jeff Horwitz. What are some of the suggestions current or former Facebook employees have made, that you're aware of, of how to improve some of the problems that you've reported on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My reaction is that Facebook has the right to say whatever they would like to say in response to our reporting. I think the more useful reaction to that isn't mine. It's that there actually have been "}
{"id": "1040081678", "date": "2021-09-23", "guest": "Jeff Horwitz", "title": "What Leaked Internal Documents Reveal About The Damage Facebook Has Caused", "question_index": 30, "text": "Recently, Facebook created what's been described as a Supreme Court for Facebook, an outside entity of experts who would help Facebook make complicated decisions about content. How has that been actually functioning?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think Facebook tends to treat social media as if it's - you know, Facebook is the only way in which it could possibly exist - right? - kind of a love-it-or-leave-it approach. And that, for the"}
{"id": "1040081678", "date": "2021-09-23", "guest": "Jeff Horwitz", "title": "What Leaked Internal Documents Reveal About The Damage Facebook Has Caused", "question_index": 31, "text": "Well, Jeff Horwitz, thank you for your reporting, and thank you for coming on our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So this came up in the XCheck story that we did about the sort of special protections for VIPs. Facebook spent $130 million creating the Oversight Board and - with the stated purpose of providing tran"}
{"id": "1040081678", "date": "2021-09-23", "guest": "Jeff Horwitz", "title": "What Leaked Internal Documents Reveal About The Damage Facebook Has Caused", "question_index": 32, "text": "Jeff Horwitz is the lead reporter on The Wall Street Journal series \"The Facebook Files.\" If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, like this week's interviews with B.J. Novak, who played Ryan in \"The Office\" and has a new TV series, or Max Chafkin, author of a new book about the controversial co-founder of PayPal, Peter Thiel, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much, Terry."}
{"id": "1040081678", "date": "2021-09-23", "guest": "Jeff Horwitz", "title": "What Leaked Internal Documents Reveal About The Damage Facebook Has Caused", "question_index": 33, "text": "FRESH AIR'S executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Kayla Lattimore. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Therese Madden directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much, Terry."}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Ray Charles was voted into the Country Music Hall of Fame last month. That may sound odd to you, since he's such a pivotal figure in soul music and rhythm and blues. But his 1962 album, \"Modern Sounds In Country And Western Music,\" became one of his best-known records and included some of his biggest hits like \"I Can't Stop Loving You\" and \"You Don't Know Me.\" I had the luck of interviewing him in 1998, after the release of a box set collecting his complete country and western recordings from 1959 to '86. This is an interview we love to return to every few years, and this seems like a perfect opportunity, especially since there's also a new box set called \"True Genius\" collecting 90 newly remastered recordings. \"True Genius\" is also available on digital platforms. Ray Charles was nicknamed The Genius, not just for his great singing and piano playing, but for his producing, arranging and choice of songs. When we spoke, he was in his recording studio. Let's start with one of the country songs he recorded. This is \"Born To Lose.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 1, "text": "Ray Charles, why did you first want to record country music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Born to lose. I've lived my life in vain. Every dream has only brought me pain. All my life, I've always been so blue. Born to lose, and now I'm losing you. Born to lose."}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 2, "text": "What'd you like about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Truthfully, because I love it. I've always loved it as a kid. That was the only time my mom would let me stay up past 9:00 on Saturday night to listen to the Grand Ole Opry. I was very fascinated by c"}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 3, "text": "What was the reaction of your record company when you said - around 1962 - I want to do a country record? Did they think, hey, Ray, great idea?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I - you know, I guess, being a musician, I was just impressed by the sound. I mean, you know, country music obviously has its own sound. And it was fascinating what these guys could do with these banj"}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 4, "text": "Now, what about the reaction of your friends and fellow musicians? Did your African American friends and fellow musicians think, why would you, as a Black man, want to record a country record? Because I think a lot of people see this big dichotomy between Black music and country music and think that it's really inexplicable if an African American likes country music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not exactly. No. But although I understand their concern because, I mean, you know, at the time, I was a pretty good selling artist over at ABC at the time. And - but that concern was - is that I "}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 5, "text": "Well, I want to play \"Your Cheatin' Heart,\" which is a real standard of country music. And I think this is just a really wonderful example of you doing a song your way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I know. It's very unusual. But I must say I was - I had nobody to give me any static about what I did. I had more static when I started sounding like my true self, as opposed to trying to imitat"}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 6, "text": "I mean, you might even be using different chords on here than the chords that were written.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 7, "text": "And the singing, too, of course.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That's right. That's right. Well, that's what makes it become me."}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 8, "text": "But you - would you say a little bit about what you did with this song to make it your own?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Why, thank you, ma'am."}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 9, "text": "OK, now \"Stardust,\" you had a huge hit with Hoagy Carmichael's \"Georgia.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's like any song that I'm going to do. I first sing it to myself and see if I can genuinely feel it, you know. Any song - I'm that way about all music, all songs I do. I sit there, and maybe s"}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 10, "text": "How come \"Stardust\" doesn't work for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 11, "text": "OK. Well, I had you describe your version of \"Your Cheatin' Heart,\" and we haven't played that yet, so let me give that a spin now. This is the Hank Williams song \"Your Cheatin' Heart\" performed by Ray Charles. And this is from the early 1960s, one of the recordings included on the new Ray Charles box set \"The Complete Country And Western Recordings 1959-1986.\" Here it is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I just could never get into it. I mean, \"Georgia\" was something - I used to hum \"Georgia.\" As a matter of fact, my chauffeur said to me one day, said, you know, Mr. Charles, you always humming t"}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 12, "text": "That's Ray Charles, one of his recordings included on his new box set \"The Complete Country & Western Recordings 1959-1986.\" Now, it's funny - you know, when I was young, some of your country songs were really big hits, you know, like \"Born To Lose\" and \"You Don't Know Me\" and \"Crying Time.\" I didn't think of them as country songs. I thought of them as Ray Charles records.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Fallin' rain."}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 13, "text": "No, I mean, I mean that. It didn't - I didn't find out till much later they were country songs. Who knew?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're very sweet, honey. Thank you, Terry. But you know, actually..."}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 14, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, actually, what it is - I'll tell you something that - and which, I think, would be helpful to the people, to our listeners. You see, I am - just so they will really know what I'm about. You see,"}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 15, "text": "Now, your biography back from, I think, 1978 begins, (reading) let me say right here and now that I am a country boy, and man, I mean the real backwoods. Tell us a little bit about where you grew up in the country.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's no question about it. But I'm not a blues singer. I'm a singer that can sing the blues."}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 16, "text": "And what did you hear on the radio then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, well, I'm from a little small town and - well, actually, I was born in Albany, Ga., but I don't know anything about it because my parents moved to Florida when I was about 6 months old. So you kno"}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 17, "text": "Now, I know a lot of African American musicians grew up listening to country music on the radio in the South 'cause that's what was on the radio...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, basically - in the daytime, you heard country music on the radio. I mean, that was it. All day long was country music all over the dial. And at night, you could hear things like Benny Goodman or"}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 18, "text": "...Then. I'm wondering if you ever felt any more distanced from that music because the performers were white and you were African American. Did that matter to you at all?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 19, "text": "Yeah, no, could you yodel for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no. You know, that is the marvelous thing about music. It is the one thing that - I won't say there was no segregation or anything. I'm not saying that. But it was very, very small. I mean, if you"}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 20, "text": "You know, I have to say that is not unlike some of the things that you do on your solo records.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Yodeling). I mean, I'm a lot better than that. But that's the idea. (Yodeling). My voice is - it's too early in the morning, but you get the idea."}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 21, "text": "No, really.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 22, "text": "Now, we're recording from your studio. Do you have to get your phone?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. I truly enjoy the various forms of music, and it really - it keeps me going."}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 23, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no, no, no, that - unfortunately, the switchboard kind of goofed and let it ring back here. You know, they must have about seven, eight lines, and they let the wrong line ring."}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 24, "text": "Now, did you think I was nuts when I said that about yodeling sounding not unlike some of the things you do on your solo records?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 25, "text": "Now, I don't know if you know the Solomon Burke story about how after he had his first big hit - I think it was \"Just Out Of Reach.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. I heard every word of it, girl. I really did."}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 26, "text": "And he showed up at a country music concert. He was the performer. And people only knew him from the radio. And when they saw that he was Black, they thought that he was an impersonator", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Uh-huh."}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Uh-huh."}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 28, "text": "They kind of drove him out of town.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, wow."}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 29, "text": "Right, because you were already Ray Charles.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, man, I - well, see, fortunately for me - I think what really happened with me, nobody expected me to be George Jones or Hank Snow or Johnny Cash. Nobody..."}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 30, "text": "I want to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right, see? So when I went in the South and did these songs, they knew that the songs I was doing was me. I was not trying to be nobody else but me."}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 31, "text": "So when you were playing in this hillbilly band in Florida...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I think that's the key, you know? I mean, the main thing is you do what you do. That's it."}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 32, "text": "...What was your repertoire like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 33, "text": "And how did you end up being in this country band?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, they played some everything. They played, you know, all the country songs at the time. As a matter of fact, I can't think of - oh, man. Not Ernest Tubb. But there was another guy that was very, ve"}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 34, "text": "That's not very long", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I got in there because - through accident. I used to - I didn't have any money. So I would go down to the music store in the daytime because they had all these various pianos in there. And they would "}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 35, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I got in there because - through accident. I used to - I didn't have any money. So I would go down to the music store in the daytime because they had all these various pianos in there. And they would "}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 36, "text": "We're listening to my 1998 interview with Ray Charles. We'll hear more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Oh, well, it was long enough for me to make a nice, little piece of change because those guys work all the time."}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 37, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 1998 interview with Ray Charles. Last month, he was voted into the Country Music Hall of Fame. We spoke after the release of a box set collecting the complete country and Western songs he recorded from 1959 to 1986. I want to play another personal favorite from your country recordings. And this is \"You Don't Know Me.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Oh, well, it was long enough for me to make a nice, little piece of change because those guys work all the time."}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 38, "text": "Would you tell us about why you chose this song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. All right."}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 39, "text": "Well, let's hear \"You Don't Know Me.\" And this song was written by Cindy Walker and Eddy Arnold. And this is Ray Charles' 1962 recording of it, now reissued on his CD box set \"The Complete Country & Western Recordings 1959-1986.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I think, again, the songs that I choose, I start with the lyrics. What are the lyrics saying to me? What kind of story are they telling me? You know, it's like, I guess it's like an actor who look"}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 40, "text": "That's Ray Charles singing \"You Don't Know Me.\" Last month, he was voted into the Country Music Hall of Fame. We'll hear more of my 1998 interview with Ray Charles after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You give your hand to me, and then you say, hello. And I can hardly speak. My heart is beating so, and anyone one can tell. You think you know me well, but you don't know me. No, you don't k"}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 41, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're listening back to my 1998 interview with Ray Charles. There's a new box set of 90 newly remastered recordings that's also available on digital platforms. Last month, he was voted into the Country Music Hall of Fame. I spoke with him in 1998 after the release of a box set collecting all the country and western songs he'd recorded between 1959 and '86. As we mentioned, you grew up in the country. And I think it was at about the age of 7 that you lost your sight. And you lost it gradually over a period of a couple of years. Did you realize what was happening?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You give your hand to me, and then you say, hello. And I can hardly speak. My heart is beating so, and anyone one can tell. You think you know me well, but you don't know me. No, you don't k"}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 42, "text": "Did you go through a long period of depression afterwards?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, as far as losing my sight, I knew that because my mom was very astute. I mean, I don't know how she managed to come up with the ideas she did, you know, but - see, because she didn't have no psy"}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 43, "text": "Yeah, no kidding. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, because when I - by the time I started losing my sight for sure, I was going to a school for the deaf and the blind. And you know, children, you know - I'm sure you're aware of this - but children"}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 44, "text": "Did you have good medical care at the time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know what I mean? And so if you go in there - like, when I first went there, I was very homesick. And I was crying and - you know, what you go through, 'cause where I went to school was abou"}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 45, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh no, honey. You know, you're thinking about much later in life. I mean, I bless your heart. I appreciate the question. But no, no, medically - I mean, I don't think anybody in those days even knew w"}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 46, "text": "Well, it's kind of amazing - isn't it? - that here you are going to school for people who are blind, and it's a segregated school", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As a matter of fact, we had one hospital on the campus, and you won't believe this, but this is the facts, it was one hospital there, and it was only what they call the white side. It was not - we had"}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 47, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As a matter of fact, we had one hospital on the campus, and you won't believe this, but this is the facts, it was one hospital there, and it was only what they call the white side. It was not - we had"}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 48, "text": "So you're segregated by color, which you can't even see.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 49, "text": "Your mother must have been pretty determined to have you in the school, I mean, to - considering that she was pretty poor, that you lived in a backwoods area, to manage to get you to this school and maybe even force you to go because you probably wanted to stay home, it was pretty good on her part.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. That's right. That's right. But, you know, that I'm - well, you know - we're - you and I - I'm sure you probably will never understand it 'cause I never understood, and I've lived a lot "}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 50, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh yeah, which, as I said, she's very foresighted. I'm - I'll always love my mom when I stop to think about the things that she - you know, she really is responsible for me being what I am today becau"}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 51, "text": "Was it at the boarding school for children who were blind and deaf that you first learned to play music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 52, "text": "Oh, so you played clarinet first?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. Yeah, I started - I couldn't get into music class the first year I was in school because the class was full. So, I mean, I couldn't get into piano class, so I started taking up clarinet. That"}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 53, "text": "How'd you like the instrument?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 54, "text": "Did you give up clarinet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I loved it. Well, I was a great fan of Artie Shaw. I used to love him. Everybody was talking about Benny Goodman, but I was an Artie Shaw man - I mean, 100%. And I was very impressed by what he could "}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 55, "text": "Now, what kind of music were you playing in school?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I studied both. I kept studying both instruments. But naturally, my heart was with the keyboard because, I mean, that's just - 'cause there's so much you can do when you play piano. You - you know"}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 56, "text": "We're listening to my 1998 interview with Ray Charles. We'll hear more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh. Well, we were - they had, like, little, small, cute little songs from Chopin that we would play or Beethoven or something like that - the little - not the symphonies, but the little, small vignett"}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 57, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 1998 interview with Ray Charles. Last month, he was voted into the Country Music Hall of Fame. We spoke after the release of a box set collecting the complete country and western songs he'd recorded from 1959 to '86.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh. Well, we were - they had, like, little, small, cute little songs from Chopin that we would play or Beethoven or something like that - the little - not the symphonies, but the little, small vignett"}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 58, "text": "Now, how old were you when you left school and set off on your own?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh. Well, we were - they had, like, little, small, cute little songs from Chopin that we would play or Beethoven or something like that - the little - not the symphonies, but the little, small vignett"}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 59, "text": "And what was it like for you to first be on your own like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was about 15 when my mom died, so I left school that year."}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 60, "text": "Now, what were the early kinds of places you performed in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it was tough, but I was lucky. I mean, I was lucky because my mom had a friend that lived in Jacksonville, which, as I say, was about a hundred-some-odd miles from Greenville. And my mom had alway"}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 61, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, they were like places - one way in and one way out."}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 62, "text": "Well, I thought we could listen to the very first recording that you made, which is \"Confession Blues.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know what I mean? They were places like dance halls. And they were - and a lot of them would sell beer. And they'd sell fish and chicken and stuff like that. But like I said, one way in, one way o"}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 63, "text": "Oh, in one of your box sets. It was easy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my goodness. Where did you find that?"}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 64, "text": "This is 1949. Let's hear it, then we'll talk about it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, brother. Yeah, that's one of the things where I was - you got me down pat. I was about, I guess I must have been about 17 years old at that time when I made that."}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 65, "text": "That was Ray Charles' first recording made in 1949. How did you start to get a sense of who you were as a singer and start to establish your own sound?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I want to tell you a story. Oh Ray boy was once in love. I want to tell you a story. Our Ray boy was once in love. And how the girl that I loved taught me of the happiness I dreamed of. She "}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 66, "text": "Well, your sound, you know, draws on rhythm and blues and also, I think, gospel music. Did you sing in a church when you were young?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, well around about - well, you know, I started thinking about it in the 1951 - somewhere in there in 1950 and '51. But I was scared to try it because, you know, I was - I could get a lot of work so"}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 67, "text": "Is there a record that you think of as being the first recording that you made as yourself, really establishing yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, sure. Yeah. Like I said to you earlier, I went to all the BYPU meetings in the Sunday school and Sunday morning service and the evening service and the revival meetings they would have durin"}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 68, "text": "It upset a lot of people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Probably \"I Got A Woman.\" I mean, that was - because that - when I did that, that seemed to upset a lot of people. But it was really me."}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 69, "text": "Oh, you mean you were using too much of a sanctified sound for a sexual record", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. A lot of people thought that it was too religious and I was bastardized in the church and, oh, man, I got all kinds of criticism for that."}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 70, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. A lot of people thought that it was too religious and I was bastardized in the church and, oh, man, I got all kinds of criticism for that."}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 71, "text": "Well, I think that's inarguable.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It just goes to show you, I guess I was a little ahead of my time or something."}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 72, "text": "Why don't we hear \"I Got A Woman\"? And this is my guest, Ray Charles.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 73, "text": "That's Ray Charles - a recording that he said was the first one that really sounded like his own style. The record that we just heard, \"I Got A Woman,\" is one of your early recordings for Atlantic. When you started recording for Atlantic, what was it like for you to find your audience?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Well, I got a woman way over town that's good to me. Oh, yeah. Said I got a woman way over town good to me. Oh, yeah. She give me money when I'm in need. Yeah, she's a kind of friend indeed."}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 74, "text": "I'd like to end our interview by asking you to choose a favorite, if you have one, from the new country music box set. There's a big selection there, but...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it was very - Atlantic was a great company. I have to tell you they - I mean, for me. Now, I'm only speaking for myself 'cause I know some people would say, oh, man, Ray, you're wrong. But for me,"}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 75, "text": "I love that song. And it was written by his wife, June.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's true. And it would be very hard to find what I would call a favorite. But I can tell you one of the songs that I really love. There's an old Johnny Cash thing that I did on there called \""}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 76, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, really? I didn't know that."}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 77, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh."}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 78, "text": "So we'll end with \"Ring Of Fire.\" Why do you love this song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No kidding. Oh, well, thank you for telling me that."}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 79, "text": "Well, Ray Charles, it has been so wonderful to talk with you. I really thank you so much for your time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, just think of the lyrics. Just think of the lyrics. (Singing) Oh, love, love is a burning thing. You know, oh, it talks, babe. It speaks to you, you know. I really didn't know what you just told"}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 80, "text": "It is an honor to hear you say that. Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Terry, it's been good talking to you. And I just want you to know not only is it good to talk to you, but I'm going to keep on listening to you, too."}
{"id": "1040425775", "date": "2021-09-24", "guest": "Ray Charles", "title": "Ray Charles Reflects On His Country Music Roots", "question_index": 81, "text": "That's Ray Charles singing \"Ring Of Fire.\" My interview with Ray Charles was recorded in 1998. Last month, he was voted into the Country Music Hall of Fame. The date of the induction ceremony has not yet been announced. There's also a new collection of newly remastered recordings called \"True Genius\" that's available as a box set and on digital platforms. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Oh, love, oh, love is a burning thing. Yes, it is. And it makes - you know, it makes a fire ring. Girl, you know I'm bound, bound, bound, bound by wild desire. That's what you do to me, girl"}
{"id": "1041623709", "date": "2021-09-30", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "The Racist Legacy Of Early Immigration Law Is Still Alive Today", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The haunting pictures of Border Patrol agents on horseback, wielding whiplike reins, pushing Haitian migrants back to the Mexican side of the border, have made many people wonder about the Biden administration's policy at the border. Is it any different from the practices of the Trump administration? My guest, Caitlin Dickerson, has been writing about that, as well as examining the racism embedded in America's immigration laws, dating back to the very first Congress in 1790. She says America never really wanted the tired, poor, huddled masses. Our laws are outdated, and Congress has been unable or unwilling to change them. Meanwhile, she points out, many of the people being turned away, held in poor conditions, are looking for work at a time when America has a labor shortage. Caitlin Dickerson is a staff writer at The Atlantic and previously covered immigration for The New York Times. She's reported on conditions at migrant detention facilities and was among the first to reveal that the Trump administration had instituted a policy of separating families at the border. Caitlin Dickerson, welcome back to FRESH AIR. The images of agents on horseback brandishing their reins and pushing people back - was that something unusual, or has that happened in the past too, but we just haven't seen it?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1041623709", "date": "2021-09-30", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "The Racist Legacy Of Early Immigration Law Is Still Alive Today", "question_index": 1, "text": "The optics were so bad that the horse patrol was suspended. What does that mean? Is this going to be a brief suspension or a change of policy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, those images actually weren't terribly new or surprising to me when I saw them. I mean, they're striking, which is why there was a strong reaction from the public. I think when you see fair-"}
{"id": "1041623709", "date": "2021-09-30", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "The Racist Legacy Of Early Immigration Law Is Still Alive Today", "question_index": 2, "text": "Well, you also report that some Border Patrol agents feel they're being blamed for what they were told to do.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think what it looks like now is a brief suspension, something that will come back later and probably after some more intensive training to make sure that Border Patrol agents are only doing, you kno"}
{"id": "1041623709", "date": "2021-09-30", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "The Racist Legacy Of Early Immigration Law Is Still Alive Today", "question_index": 3, "text": "So you raise the question, why is the Biden administration driving away Haitian migrants at the border? How much does COVID have to do with that? We're still in a pandemic, and people are very concerned, for obvious reasons, about the spread. You can't assume that migrants coming in have been vaccinated. So how does COVID figure into this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right, and this is an old issue, Terry. You know, Democrats have a hard time as president with the Border Patrol historically, and with ICE agents for that matter, who do similar immigration po"}
{"id": "1041623709", "date": "2021-09-30", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "The Racist Legacy Of Early Immigration Law Is Still Alive Today", "question_index": 4, "text": "My guest is Caitlin Dickerson. She covers immigration for The Atlantic, where she's a staff writer. We recorded our interview yesterday morning. This morning we learned that a ruling is expected later today from the D.C. Court of Appeals on whether Title 42 must be paused tomorrow or if the government can continue to invoke it while awaiting a final ruling on its use. We'll hear more of our interview after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "COVID is directly related to the way the Biden administration has approached the Haitian migrants at the border in that the legal authority that they're using in order to carry out these swift removal"}
{"id": "1041623709", "date": "2021-09-30", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "The Racist Legacy Of Early Immigration Law Is Still Alive Today", "question_index": 5, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Caitlin Dickerson, a staff writer at The Atlantic, where she's been writing about immigration. Can you compare some more how the Trump and Biden administrations have handled migrants at the border?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "COVID is directly related to the way the Biden administration has approached the Haitian migrants at the border in that the legal authority that they're using in order to carry out these swift removal"}
{"id": "1041623709", "date": "2021-09-30", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "The Racist Legacy Of Early Immigration Law Is Still Alive Today", "question_index": 6, "text": "And what you're describing is the Biden administration being in a tough spot. If they publicize all of the Haitian migrants who are being allowed in, it might encourage other Haitian migrants. But if they don't, they're going to get a lot of heat from people who think that the migrants are being - that all migrants are being mistreated.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. So I think that a lot of people now are asking, you know, is what President Biden doing any different with immigration than what President Trump might have done in the years past? And I think th"}
{"id": "1041623709", "date": "2021-09-30", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "The Racist Legacy Of Early Immigration Law Is Still Alive Today", "question_index": 7, "text": "Trump started the Migrant Protection Protocol, known as, like, the Stay in Mexico policy, where asylum seekers crossing from Mexico had to stay in Mexico while they waited for an asylum court hearing, which could take a very long time. And the Supreme Court reinstated that program, upheld that program. So is that forcing the Biden administration to follow that protocol?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. And there is some truth to that in that at any time you move to very quickly and expeditiously, you know, in a blanket way make a determination based on a large group of people and put the"}
{"id": "1041623709", "date": "2021-09-30", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "The Racist Legacy Of Early Immigration Law Is Still Alive Today", "question_index": 8, "text": "Haitians and other migrants from poor countries typically have to seek asylum, as opposed to entering with visas. Can you talk about the distinction and why that's true of Haitians and other migrants from poor countries?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Shortly after taking office, the Biden administration moved to first suspend and then eliminate the Remain in Mexico program, or MPP - Migrant Protection Protocols - and was quickly sued by the states"}
{"id": "1041623709", "date": "2021-09-30", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "The Racist Legacy Of Early Immigration Law Is Still Alive Today", "question_index": 9, "text": "My guest is Caitlin Dickerson. She covers immigration for The Atlantic. We recorded our interview yesterday. Last night, the Biden administration announced it will soon be issuing a new memorandum to end MPP, the Remain in Mexico policy, while complying with the Supreme Court's decision that blocked their earlier attempt to end it. We'll hear more of my interview with Caitlin Dickerson after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. So I think the reaction to the large number of Haitians who were stuck at the border and the Biden administration's decisions in terms of how to process them or not raised questions about kind o"}
{"id": "1041623709", "date": "2021-09-30", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "The Racist Legacy Of Early Immigration Law Is Still Alive Today", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Caitlin Dickerson. We're talking about immigration, the history of immigration in American policy and how policy has changed under President Trump and now under President Biden. Caitlin Dickerson is a staff writer at The Atlantic, where she's been writing about immigration. She previously covered immigration for The New York Times. So you write, American never really wanted the tired, poor, huddled masses yearning to breathe free and that race was written into immigration law from the very start and literally at the first Congress in 1790. What did the law say in 1790?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. So I think the reaction to the large number of Haitians who were stuck at the border and the Biden administration's decisions in terms of how to process them or not raised questions about kind o"}
{"id": "1041623709", "date": "2021-09-30", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "The Racist Legacy Of Early Immigration Law Is Still Alive Today", "question_index": 11, "text": "So the Supreme Court as recently as 1922 - and that's a long time ago, but it's still - it's the 20th century. The Supreme Court sided with the government, who argued that citizenship should be granted as the founders intended - only to those whom they knew and regarded as worthy to share it with them; men of their own type - white men. So what does that tell you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the very first citizenship law established in the United States made it available to free white men. And that was something that I didn't know. You know, I've covered immigration for, now, three ad"}
{"id": "1041623709", "date": "2021-09-30", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "The Racist Legacy Of Early Immigration Law Is Still Alive Today", "question_index": 12, "text": "I want to pick up on something that you've said, which is that, you know, we're keeping out all these migrants at the Mexican border. At the same time, we have a labor shortage. Do the jobs that we have a shortage in match the kind of jobs that migrants at the border might be able to fill and willing to fill?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. That was in a case called Ozawa v. the United States of a man who had attended the University of California, who had children who spoke English, who'd worked for American companies, who,"}
{"id": "1041623709", "date": "2021-09-30", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "The Racist Legacy Of Early Immigration Law Is Still Alive Today", "question_index": 13, "text": "Is there a way of fixing that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that's a really good question for an economist, Terry. I can tell you what they've told me, which is that, you know, we have historically tried to sort of separate migrants into two different grou"}
{"id": "1041623709", "date": "2021-09-30", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "The Racist Legacy Of Early Immigration Law Is Still Alive Today", "question_index": 14, "text": "So where does business stand on this issue? - because if businesses - if many businesses could benefit from an expanded asylum or immigration policy, how vocal is the business world being about immigration reform?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one way of fixing that that's been proposed many times - it's part of the proposal that the Biden administration has made for addressing immigration reform - is to do an analysis of the American"}
{"id": "1041623709", "date": "2021-09-30", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "The Racist Legacy Of Early Immigration Law Is Still Alive Today", "question_index": 15, "text": "Let's take another break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Caitlin Dickerson, a staff writer at The Atlantic, where she's been writing about immigration. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So this is a place where we've really seen, I think, a shift in the last 10 to 15 years, from the agricultural industry to the food processing industry to the hospitality industry. All of those indust"}
{"id": "1041623709", "date": "2021-09-30", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "The Racist Legacy Of Early Immigration Law Is Still Alive Today", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Caitlin Dickerson, a staff writer at The Atlantic, where she's been writing about immigration. She previously covered immigration for The New York Times. You spent a lot of time at the border. You've gone back and forth to both sides of the border. How much time have you spent at the Mexican border during the Biden administration?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So this is a place where we've really seen, I think, a shift in the last 10 to 15 years, from the agricultural industry to the food processing industry to the hospitality industry. All of those indust"}
{"id": "1041623709", "date": "2021-09-30", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "The Racist Legacy Of Early Immigration Law Is Still Alive Today", "question_index": 17, "text": "Can you tell us a little bit about what you saw?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I actually just returned from a trip to southern Arizona, to Yuma, which is where very large numbers of people from Central America were crossing the border. And I wanted to see what that looked li"}
{"id": "1041623709", "date": "2021-09-30", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "The Racist Legacy Of Early Immigration Law Is Still Alive Today", "question_index": 18, "text": "Now, you mentioned the cartel. What was the cartel's role in helping these migrants cross the border? And were these migrants trying to escape the cartel. Or it sounds like they're being protected by the cartel - or maybe just just making money, just that the cartel's making money off of them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So what I saw in Yuma was interesting in that it was in the midst of an influx of families crossing the border in particular. And so I had requested to do a ride along with the Border Patrol to watch "}
{"id": "1041623709", "date": "2021-09-30", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "The Racist Legacy Of Early Immigration Law Is Still Alive Today", "question_index": 19, "text": "Can you talk a little bit about the change that you witnessed in attention being paid to news coverage of immigration 'cause I think a lot of people didn't pay a lot of attention. But when Trump started enforcing really harsh immigration policies, then the nation was really focused on it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I can tell you my assumption based on a lot of reporting that I've done. The sort of routine for crossing the border in these areas, it's pretty organized at this point. My guess is that these m"}
{"id": "1041623709", "date": "2021-09-30", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "The Racist Legacy Of Early Immigration Law Is Still Alive Today", "question_index": 20, "text": "Caitlin Dickerson, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. I think that Trump's harsh language put this spotlight on the border that didn't exist before, and that's for a number of reasons. You know, we've got a lot of issues going on domestical"}
{"id": "1041623709", "date": "2021-09-30", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "The Racist Legacy Of Early Immigration Law Is Still Alive Today", "question_index": 21, "text": "Caitlin Dickerson is a staff writer at The Atlantic. She covers immigration. After we take a short break, our rock critic Ken Tucker will review two new remixes of Pere Ubu albums. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 0, "text": "Sure do.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, number of reasons. First, I needed someone with a large understanding of cinema who had a number of years of experience. And the people that had that number of years' experience in the cinema ge"}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 1, "text": "There are a couple of weeks when \"Sweetback\" outdid \"Love Story\" at the box office, which is pretty extraordinary considering it was an independently produced film. How did you independently get that kind of distribution?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Since he - and I didn't want him to talk a lot. He didn't have to talk a lot. And that's why I did it."}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 2, "text": "Your film \"Sweetback\" was considered to be the first of the Blaxploitation films. What you did was you took the action genre and put it into a Black politicized context. And I'd really be interested in hearing what gave you the idea to do that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I didn't independently get that kind of distribution. What I simply did was make a good movie. Only two theaters in the United States would show it - two theaters at all would show the movie. An"}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 3, "text": "You're talking about wanting to make movies that had an image that you believed in. Now, \"Sweetback\" was praised by a lot of people for - really, for being a Black film, you know, made by Blacks, starring Blacks, set in the Black community. On the other hand, it was criticized by many people within the Black community for having its hero be the real stud. And some people saw that as perpetuating a stereotype instead of shattering it. And I wonder what you thought of those criticisms and what you think of them now in retrospect.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm being alive really gave me the idea of doing it. I just got - the reason - my original reason for going into films was that I had gotten tired of seeing Blacks portrayed in an image that I d"}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 4, "text": "You were one of the first or perhaps the first Black director of a feature film, feature-length film.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I thought that Jesus Christ was nothing but a carpenter in his own hometown. And so it really didn't bother me too much. I think that's completely valid, what they said. And I disagree with it 1"}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 5, "text": "Oscar Micheaux, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was probably the first commercial feature film outside of - after Oscar Micheaux..."}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 6, "text": "So you started your film career in France in...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Went out of business in - around 1932 with the - really, with the advent of sound, he had to phase out. I came back to the States in 1967 as one of the French delegates to the San Francisco Film Fe"}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 7, "text": "Oh, oh, oh, I see. So you'd made, like, small, short, independent films.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I didn't start making movies in France. I made movies in San Francisco when I used to drive a cable car many years ago."}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 8, "text": "And you went to France?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I made short independent films, and I went to Hollywood with my films. And I said, here are my films. Here's some of my work. I've written this story, et cetera. And I'd like to - I'd like a job. And "}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 9, "text": "So you don't think it would have been possible to start your career as director had you just stayed in America?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "..."}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 10, "text": "You ended up leaving movies to work on Wall Street. You were probably, when you started on Wall Street, one of the few Black traders with a seat on the Exchange.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What do I know? I mean, it didn't seem that it was burgeoning with opportunity at the time."}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 11, "text": "So what was it like being the only Black trader on the Exchange?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was the only Black trader on the American Stock Exchange at the time I started there. There were a number - there was, I think, five brokers. Now, a broker is different than a trader. A broker, he w"}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 12, "text": "In your new book \"No Identity Crisis,\" your son Mario, with tongue-in-cheek, calls you his lizard dad", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...The first Black navigator in my squadron. I was the first Black in - out of ROTC in my college. You know, on and on and on and on again - it was not particularly disconcerting to me."}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 13, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...The first Black navigator in my squadron. I was the first Black in - out of ROTC in my college. You know, on and on and on and on again - it was not particularly disconcerting to me."}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 14, "text": "...And talks about you as being the person who really lacks diplomacy when it comes to, you know, dealing with somebody.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 15, "text": "Did you ever have any", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I gave at the office. I gave - my diplomacy was worn away a few years ago - well, a long time ago."}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 16, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I gave at the office. I gave - my diplomacy was worn away a few years ago - well, a long time ago."}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 17, "text": "Now, why did you want to make a film about the making of the film?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Alan (ph)? How are you doing? So listen..."}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 18, "text": "Now, you were 12 years old when your father was making \"Sweet Sweetback\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- that's a good one. Well, you know, I was - it was an interesting process for me. Why did I make \"Baadasssss!\"? And I was on the set of \"Ali\" and - being directed by Michael Mann. And we had these gr"}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 19, "text": "Now, you have a small, famous or infamous part", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, 12 going on 13."}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 20, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, 12 going on 13."}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 21, "text": "...In \"Sweet Sweetback's Baadasssss Song.\" I want you to describe the scene that you're in.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 22, "text": "You know the scene I want you to describe.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, actually, I'm in two scenes. One scene people..."}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 23, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...People tend to remember more than others."}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 24, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I blew up a car - where I did keep my Afro. And the other scene is the beginning of the movie where I play, ironically, Sweetback as a kid. So I'm playing my dad's character as a kid. And now in \"Baad"}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well, in 1990, I interviewed your father, and I asked him about why he cast you in that scene. And I want to play you that part of the interview. It'll just take a minute. So here it is, a 1990 interview with Melvin Van Peebles, who was the father of my guest, Mario Van Peebles.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But, you know, at the time I didn't want to - there was a number - I didn't want to be working with him on the movie after a while. You know, I thought - my dad and I didn't always get along. I would "}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 26, "text": "\"Sweetback\" - the movie opens with a 10-year-old Sweetback finding a home for himself in a whorehouse and having his sexual initiation with a 40-year-old woman. And it's a fairly explicitly done scene. They're both nude. He's in between her legs. And this is your son in that role - your 10-year-old son. I was astonished when I found out it was your son. What made you decide to cast him in that part?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But, you know, at the time I didn't want to - there was a number - I didn't want to be working with him on the movie after a while. You know, I thought - my dad and I didn't always get along. I would "}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 27, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one, he tends to look like me, being my..."}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 28, "text": "Let me just ask you, how much did your son know about sex when that scene was shot? I mean, did he get what was happening?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Son and all. And what I always found very interesting was people saying, but it's your son. But every child is someone's son. And I wouldn't ask my son or myself to do anything that I wouldn't ask "}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 29, "text": "OK. So that's Melvin Van Peebles recorded in 1990. Mario, what did you think of his answer that he wouldn't have asked his son to do anything that he wouldn't have asked anyone else's son to do, and he wouldn't have asked anyone else's son to do something that he wouldn't - that he couldn't ask his own son to do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "ask him, actually. He did say something rather funny, though. He said, Dad, is going to be an X movie? I said, yes. He said, phew. Oh, I don't want the kids at school to see me."}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 30, "text": "One of the things your father mentioned when I was talking to him is that you asked how the movie would be rated, and you were relieved when it was X - when he told you would be X-rated 'cause you didn't want your friends to see you nude in that scene. Did your friends...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know? And I didn't want to get my Afro cut. Luckily, I got to keep my, you know, Afro intact."}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 31, "text": "...See you in the scene?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 32, "text": "Oh, really? So it worked in your favor.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A couple of them did. And then I got a lot of date calls."}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 33, "text": "Now, you were in the position - I mean, you not only, like, play your father in \"Baadasssss!,\" but you were in your father's position of having to cast a boy to play the role that your father made you play when he was making his film. So how did you cast for it? Who did you choose? And how explicit did you want to make your version of his scene?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like I said, I wouldn't mind another shot now. He said, well, I am not giving you another shot. I had to fill in for you last time."}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 34, "text": "Did your father charge you a lot of money for rights to use the scene in your film?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I thought I didn't want to make anyone do that scene twice. So in \"Baadasssss!,\" I just used the original footage of me as a kid in \"Sweetback\" during that scene. So he didn't - the kid I cast w"}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 35, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a good question, Terry. This guy is a trip, man. So I go to my dad, I say, OK, Dad, listen. I got the movie funded. So I go to see my old man about - 'cause I wanted to put some clips of his film"}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 36, "text": "I think the way you play your father in your movie \"Baadasssss!\" kind of walks the line between obsessively adhering to his artistic vision and being selfish, and walks the line between being confident and arrogant. And I thought that seemed - not knowing him, that seemed to have a ring of truth to it. How did you see him when you were 12, when he was making the movie? Did you see him as confident or arrogant? Did you see him as selfish?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross. We're listening back to Terry's 2004 interview with Mario Van Peebles, the son of filmmaker Melvin Van Peebles, who died last week at age 89"}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 37, "text": "And when I say selfish, I mean because he was putting a lot of family kind of interests on the back burner to make this movie. He was losing money...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I don't know that at 12 I analyzed it as much."}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 38, "text": "He was totally obsessed. He was losing money.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, totally obsessed. Yes."}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 39, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Single vision. Yes."}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 40, "text": "I know actors often feel that when they put on the costumes, you know, or the wardrobe for a movie, that they are transformed by those clothes. Now, in your case, you were wearing what I imagine were clothes very similar to what you remembered your father wearing when your father made \"Sweet Sweetback.\" So how did you feel in those clothes, saying the things you remembered your father saying...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, he's a driven cat. And, you know, there's that scene in \"Baadasssss!\" where he says to Big T - Big T is - the crew has spent two-days - a weekend in jail. And Big T, who's the big, you know,"}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 41, "text": "...And doing your best to become him? Could you just, like, talk about what that felt like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 42, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh. To play your father making a film that you remember him making, and you were on that set - I had some of the very same clothes that he wore, that sort of pimp-y, crushed velvet gold, obnoxious out"}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 43, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know where he got that outfit that thing was terrible. Anyway, I had them get me another outfit, make me an outfit like that. And we were shooting a scene in LA in the hood. And I - since it w"}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 44, "text": "You know how no matter how much you love somebody, they often have, like, a certain gesture that really gets on your nerves? I'm wondering if your father had something like that that you had to recreate when you were playing him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He came back. The brother came back just like he said he came back. It was surreal. We went to the very same places my dad went in the ghetto because he was avoiding the unions, and in the desert beca"}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 45, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I did. There are many things. One is he eats with his fingers."}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 46, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And what he does is he says he doesn't want to eat anything. He likes to stay nice and slim. He's got a great stomach. He's, you know - he can still outrun me. He's 71 years old. He's a bad brother. B"}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 47, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then he'll reach over and put his fingers right into your food and sort of smack it up. The second thing is, growing up with my dad was like growing up - if you're a woman and you grow up with Mar"}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 48, "text": "Well, Mario Van Peebles, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Whether you agree with mommy's politics or not - whether you agree with her politics, it would be very hard for men to convince you that a woman could have no place in the old-boy network of politics."}
{"id": "1042350599", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "Melvin Van Peebles", "title": "Remembering Melvin Van Peebles, the 'Godfather' of Black cinema", "question_index": 49, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I love talking with you and would, you know, do it any time. \"Green Eggs And Ham\" - anywhere, on a boat, on a moat..."}
{"id": "1042359282", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "John Shelby Spong", "title": "Remembering John Shelby Spong, Episcopal bishop and LGBTQ champion", "question_index": 0, "text": "Well, let me ask you about one of your most controversial actions as the Episcopal bishop of Newark. You were ordained a gay man shortly after the Episcopal Church said that it was OK to ordain non-celibate homosexuals. Who was the man, and why did you choose him to to be the first?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Now we're going to listen to Terry's interview with John Shelby Spong, an Episcopal bishop who championed the acceptance of women and LGBTQ people in the clergy. He also promoted a "}
{"id": "1042359282", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "John Shelby Spong", "title": "Remembering John Shelby Spong, Episcopal bishop and LGBTQ champion", "question_index": 1, "text": "You ended up - yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The first homosexual person that I ordained knowingly was a man named Robert Williams. And this came after I had written a book called \"Living In Sin\" on the whole gay issue as well as some other patt"}
{"id": "1042359282", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "John Shelby Spong", "title": "Remembering John Shelby Spong, Episcopal bishop and LGBTQ champion", "question_index": 2, "text": "Now, you ended up having to ask for his resignation...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We wound up ordaining him to the priesthood in 1989 in December. And for some reason, the religious right, led by the bishop of Fort Worth, Texas, decided to make that a cause celebre. And so they wen"}
{"id": "1042359282", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "John Shelby Spong", "title": "Remembering John Shelby Spong, Episcopal bishop and LGBTQ champion", "question_index": 3, "text": "...After he said - what? - bad things about monogamy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1042359282", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "John Shelby Spong", "title": "Remembering John Shelby Spong, Episcopal bishop and LGBTQ champion", "question_index": 4, "text": "What was it like for you to go out on a limb to ordain a gay priest and then have to ask for his resignation? Were you embarrassed? Did you think you had made a mistake or had made a bad choice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that was one of the things. Robert Williams became, because of the publicity that surrounded his ordination, he became a media star almost immediately. And he was not very well-equipped by eithe"}
{"id": "1042359282", "date": "2021-10-01", "guest": "John Shelby Spong", "title": "Remembering John Shelby Spong, Episcopal bishop and LGBTQ champion", "question_index": 5, "text": "Now, I believe you first saw or initiated a church study on how changing ideas and changing sexual practices should affect the church. Could you sum up some of the things that you found in that study?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I don't think I've made a mistake on that yet. I think both decisions were appropriate decisions, and I believe I would do both of them over again. Robert Williams taught me far more about the mea"}
{"id": "1043036861", "date": "2021-10-04", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. I'm going to start today's show with a scene from the 1944 classic film noir \"Double Indemnity.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1043036861", "date": "2021-10-04", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 1, "text": "Yeah, that's how a lot of men in film noir end up. They don't get the money, and they don't get the woman. What they do often get is double crossed and killed. \"Double Indemnity\" is one of the films we're going to talk about today with Eddie Muller, who you may know as the host of the Turner Classic Movies show \"Noir Alley,\" where each Saturday night, he screens a film noir. Even if you don't have time to watch the film, his intros are worth tuning in for. Muller has impeccable noir credentials. His book \"Dark City: The Lost World Of Film Noir,\" was just published in a new expanded edition. He's the author of a book about the women who starred in these films. He's the founder and president of the Film Noir Foundation, which has restored and preserved more than 30 nearly lost classics in partnership with the UCLA Film and Television Archive. Some of the great film noirs were set in the world of boxing, a world Muller was well acquainted with through his father, also named Eddie Muller, who was considered the West Coast dean of boxing writers and covered boxing for the San Francisco Examiner for over 50 years. He covered his first prize fight in 1926. I interviewed Eddie Muller once before today's Eddie Muller, not his father. And that was in 1996, after the publication of his book \"Grindhouse: The Forbidden World Of 'Adults Only' Cinema.\" Eddie Muller, welcome back to FRESH AIR. It is such a treat to have you back on the show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Walter Neff) Yes, I killed him. I killed him for money and for a woman. I didn't get the money, and I didn't get the woman."}
{"id": "1043036861", "date": "2021-10-04", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 2, "text": "So let's talk about what you mean when you say film noir.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I am so happy to be here, Terry."}
{"id": "1043036861", "date": "2021-10-04", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 3, "text": "How dark? More, please.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yes, this is - one of the reasons it remains so fresh is because it's debatable. Everybody gets to argue about what it is, which really isn't the case with Westerns or musicals or anything. So t"}
{"id": "1043036861", "date": "2021-10-04", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 4, "text": "And as you've pointed out, most film noir combines, like, the sinister and the sensual.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I also consider film noir to be sort of the anti-myth. If what Hollywood was always selling was that everything's going to be all right and we're all going to live happily ever after, film noir was th"}
{"id": "1043036861", "date": "2021-10-04", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 5, "text": "Well, let's hear another clip. And this one also is from \"Double Indemnity.\" So just to set it up, Walter Neff, played by Fred MacMurray, is an insurance salesman who goes to, like, a wealthy man's home to remind the man to renew his insurance. The maid lets him in. The man's not home, but Barbara Stanwyck appears at the top of the stairs in a bath towel. And that's it for Walter Neff. Like, he's done.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Yeah, I think that's one of the reasons the films remain so popular - is because they're very sexy in a way that films aren't sexy today because they were made, you know, during the existe"}
{"id": "1043036861", "date": "2021-10-04", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 6, "text": "So she puts on some clothes, comes downstairs, and then they talk. Barbara Stanwyck starts first.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Yeah, I think that's one of the reasons the films remain so popular - is because they're very sexy in a way that films aren't sexy today because they were made, you know, during the existe"}
{"id": "1043036861", "date": "2021-10-04", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 7, "text": "Aw.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Walter Neff) That tears it."}
{"id": "1043036861", "date": "2021-10-04", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 8, "text": "Another hallmark of film noir is, like, great dialogue.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Walter Neff) That tears it."}
{"id": "1043036861", "date": "2021-10-04", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 9, "text": "You write that \"Double Indemnity\" was the first time a Hollywood film explicitly explored the means, motives and opportunity of committing murder. Can you elaborate on that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "as you can."}
{"id": "1043036861", "date": "2021-10-04", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 10, "text": "Film noir gave great roles to women in the sense that, you know, there were beautiful, but they were as tough-talking as the men, and they often led the men into crimes that would, of course, backfire. And that's the whole idea of the femme fatale. Like, the woman is, like, seducing the man, leading him into the world of crime, and the man is probably going to get double crossed by the woman or by somebody else. And there's a scene from the film \"Criss Cross\" that you describe as the femme fatale manifesto. This is a 1949 film directed by Robert Siodmak. Set up the scene for us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. In the books that these films were based on - were largely written in the 1930s and were part of a whole renaissance of of hard-boiled crime writing that grew up in the pulp magazines and, you k"}
{"id": "1043036861", "date": "2021-10-04", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 11, "text": "So just to set up the scene, Burt Lancaster was just basically taken out of the hospital against his will by one of the henchmen of the guys who double-crossed him. But Lancaster pays off this guy to just take him to the beach house so he could reunite with Yvonne De Carlo. And then as we enter the scene, Yvonne De Carlo is packing up the money, getting ready to leave without him because he's very vulnerable, having just come out of the hospital.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the premise of this movie is that Burt Lancaster has had his heart broken by Yvonne de Carlo. And he has left, and we are meant to imagine that he's like, traveled around the world. But, of cour"}
{"id": "1043036861", "date": "2021-10-04", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 12, "text": "OK. Take that", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Anna) Love, love - you have to watch out for yourself. That's the way it is. I'm sorry. What do you want me to do, throw away all this money? You always have to do what's best for yourself. That's"}
{"id": "1043036861", "date": "2021-10-04", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 13, "text": ". So what makes that the manifesto?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Anna) Love, love - you have to watch out for yourself. That's the way it is. I'm sorry. What do you want me to do, throw away all this money? You always have to do what's best for yourself. That's"}
{"id": "1043036861", "date": "2021-10-04", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 14, "text": "One of the things that Turner did recently was a series called \"Reframed\" in which you and several other of the Turner hosts revisited some classic films and re-examined them, acknowledging how racism and sexism in the films make them problematic, but instead of canceling the films, creating a dialogue around them so we could still watch the films, appreciate what's good about them and talk about what, like, is really not good", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It may not be the way you want to be equal, but in that world, that's kind of how it worked out. And so I've always loved that scene because, really, you can look at these films from different persp"}
{"id": "1043036861", "date": "2021-10-04", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 15, "text": ". So what was that series like for you, and did it force you to, like, rethink things about certain films? Or had you already gone through that process?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It may not be the way you want to be equal, but in that world, that's kind of how it worked out. And so I've always loved that scene because, really, you can look at these films from different persp"}
{"id": "1043036861", "date": "2021-10-04", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 16, "text": "One of the films I think you talked about was \"The Searchers.\" So what did you point out in that film that you hadn't noticed when you first saw it - when you were about 14, did you say?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was good. It was good, I think, for all the hosts to go through that. It was a very interesting exercise. I certainly got a lot out of it because it's important to revisit these things and think of"}
{"id": "1043036861", "date": "2021-10-04", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 17, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Eddie Muller. He hosts the Turner Classic Movies show called \"Noir Alley,\" which is on Saturdays, usually around midnight or shortly after. It's rebroadcast Sunday mornings. He's also the author of the book \"Dark City: The Lost World Of Film Noir,\" which has just been published in a new expanded edition. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. When you're 14 years old and it's 19-whatever, '74 or something - when I saw that, or 1972, when I saw that movie, you know, it's a cowboy and Indians movie. And now you're really - you don't rea"}
{"id": "1043036861", "date": "2021-10-04", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Eddie Muller, host of the Turner Classic Movies show \"Noir Alley.\" His book \"Dark City: The Lost World Of Film Noir\" has been published in a new and expanded edition. How old were you when you started becoming really absorbed in film noir?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. When you're 14 years old and it's 19-whatever, '74 or something - when I saw that, or 1972, when I saw that movie, you know, it's a cowboy and Indians movie. And now you're really - you don't rea"}
{"id": "1043036861", "date": "2021-10-04", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 19, "text": "Do you think you gravitated to these films 'cause you already had a dark sensibility, or do you think you have a dark sensibility because of these films? I'm guessing you already had a dark sensibility.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I was probably in my early teens, I would say."}
{"id": "1043036861", "date": "2021-10-04", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 20, "text": "Did you watch classic boxing noirs like \"The Harder They Fall\" or \"Body And Soul\" with your father?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I will say this about why I think I was drawn to that world. I do think it had a lot to do with my father, who was a wonderful, wonderful person. And I learned so much about his ability to navigate th"}
{"id": "1043036861", "date": "2021-10-04", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I'm thinking of these things, you know, my nascent cinephile being, you know? And I'm, like, thinking of how they told the story and why they did this or that. And then I'd hear my dad in the othe"}
{"id": "1043036861", "date": "2021-10-04", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 22, "text": "In most of these boxing movies, there's corruption. And I'm wondering if your father told you stories about corruption in the real boxing world?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1043036861", "date": "2021-10-04", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 23, "text": "I didn't even know there were such hearings.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "today. So..."}
{"id": "1043036861", "date": "2021-10-04", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 24, "text": "Who ever heard of that? Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So much has changed, Terry."}
{"id": "1043036861", "date": "2021-10-04", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 25, "text": "OK. Well, we need to take another break here, but then we'll be right back. If you're just joining us, my guest is Eddie Muller. And he hosts the Turner Classic Movies show \"Noir Alley,\" in which he shows a film noir and talks about it, too. And what he has to say is always interesting. And his book \"Dark City: The Lost World Of Film Noir\" has been published in a new and expanded edition. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But it was good TV, too. That was a big part of it. It was like early television. And so it was very exciting for the networks to put this stuff on TV because it was America's first chance to see what"}
{"id": "1043036861", "date": "2021-10-04", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Eddie Muller, host of the show \"Noir Alley\" on Turner Classic Movies. It's shown around midnight or shortly after, in that space between Saturday night and Sunday morning. And it's on again Sunday mornings. His book, \"Dark City: The Lost World Of Film Noir,\" has been published in a new and expanded edition. He's also written crime novels set in the world of boxing. And his father was considered the dean of West Coast boxing writers. He covered his first prize fight in 1926 and covered boxing for the San Francisco Examiner for over 50 years. How old were you when you saw your first boxing match in an arena? And what was that like for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But it was good TV, too. That was a big part of it. It was like early television. And so it was very exciting for the networks to put this stuff on TV because it was America's first chance to see what"}
{"id": "1043036861", "date": "2021-10-04", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 27, "text": "So I want to ask you about a secret that I don't know if you'll tell us or not. But you you've written about this in your novel \"The Distance,\" which is set in the boxing world and is based on the lives of your parents - probably loosely based on them. But there's a secret that you learned I think when you were in your 20s about your mother that is kind of worked into the book. Could you talk about what that was?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "come out of his mouth before. And it was really something. It made me admire him tremendously. And it was an important lesson to me to learn, like, how to navigate, you know? You deal with different p"}
{"id": "1043036861", "date": "2021-10-04", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 28, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was a family secret that was kept secret from all of the children in the family. And, you know - I don't know. My oldest brother is not really my oldest brother. That's - I'll just put it that w"}
{"id": "1043036861", "date": "2021-10-04", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 29, "text": "Let's talk some more about film noir. Film noir flourishes after World War II. Why then? I mean, because after World War II, it's like, the soldiers are home. The war is over. Times - you know, the economy improves. Things get better for a lot of people - not everybody. But why was that a time, do you think, that these classic, really dark films were made?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "around for quite a while. And in the end, it really didn't matter."}
{"id": "1043036861", "date": "2021-10-04", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 30, "text": "You know, the production code - the Hays Code that you were referring to - is a code of morals that movies had to follow. I mean, married couples weren't even allowed to sleep in the same bed in movies. And crime was not allowed to pay. Like, if you were a bad guy, you would be killed or sent to prison. It had to be punished. So how did film noir get around that? Like, give us one of your favorite examples.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", a certain percentage of the artists are going to say, no, it's - I wanted to end this way. This is my story, and I want to tell it this way. And I just think that's - all of these factors came to be"}
{"id": "1043036861", "date": "2021-10-04", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 31, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "tacked on at the end of..."}
{"id": "1043036861", "date": "2021-10-04", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 32, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...The film by the studio head. I'm kind of agreeing with what the artist was presenting in the previous 89 minutes, right?"}
{"id": "1043036861", "date": "2021-10-04", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 33, "text": "Let's take another short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Eddie Muller. He's the host of the show \"Noir Alley\" on Turner Classic Movies. And his book \"Dark City: The Lost World Of Film Noir\" has been published in a new and expanded edition. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "whether or not the audience is going to empathize with that villain. That's the real tricky part. And that's what made noir so special, right? I mean, you can't help yourself. This is especially true "}
{"id": "1043036861", "date": "2021-10-04", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 34, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Eddie Muller, host of the show \"Noir Alley\" on Turner Classic Movies. His book \"Dark City: The Lost World Of Film Noir\" has been published in a new and expanded edition. You know, in your book you write about how gangsters in the film world were not unlike what was happening in Hollywood itself. So I want you to tell us about the union the International Alliance of Theatrical and Stage Employees and its connection to organized crime 'cause, apparently, like, they basically shook down some of the studio heads.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "whether or not the audience is going to empathize with that villain. That's the real tricky part. And that's what made noir so special, right? I mean, you can't help yourself. This is especially true "}
{"id": "1043036861", "date": "2021-10-04", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 35, "text": "Oh, my God. I just spit out the whole sip of water I just take, and I hope I didn't ruin the microphone.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "very true. Of course, it's a little touchy right now because IATSE is going through a whole thing right now with - the rank and file are going to strike. And, you know, so I want everybody who's liste"}
{"id": "1043036861", "date": "2021-10-04", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 36, "text": "Another thing about film noir is that several of the key people in it were emigres from Germany who left during World War II or just before during the rise of Hitler and the Nazis. So what are some of the stylistic things in film noir that you think came out of German expressionism through the people who fled Germany?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And there were - it was actually Robert Montgomery, the actor, who played a huge role in spending his own money on private investigators who ended up kind of cracking the combination on this and sen"}
{"id": "1043036861", "date": "2021-10-04", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 37, "text": "Well, I'd like to close with some music 'cause the music is such a great part of film noir. Some of the scores are just terrific. And, like, Miklos Rozsa did some really great ones, including \"Double Indemnity.\" And this is a score I particularly like because it has that kind of - the drum is like a pounding heartbeat - like, somewhere between a pounding, anxious heartbeat and a death march. And it's like the musical version of dread and doom. Do you want to say a few words about, like, the music in film noir and its importance?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mostly, I think what the Europeans who came to Hollywood brought with them was, well, as you said, expressionistic sense of art direction and cinematography. And for people who may not be familiar wit"}
{"id": "1043036861", "date": "2021-10-04", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 38, "text": "OK. So we're going to close with the music from the Miklos Rozsa score for \"Double Indemnity.\" And Eddie Muller, it's been so much fun to have you back on the show. Thank you so much for coming.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1043036861", "date": "2021-10-04", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 39, "text": "Absolutely. (SOUNNDBITE OF MIKLOS ROZSA'S \"PRELUDE [FROM 'DOUBLE INDEMNITY']\")", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "An absolute pleasure, Terry. Thank you so much for inviting me. And let's not wait another 25 years."}
{"id": "1043036861", "date": "2021-10-04", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 40, "text": "That's music from Miklos Rozsa from his score for the film \"Criss Cross\" (ph). Eddie Muller's show, \"Noir Alley,\" is on Turner Classic Movies Saturday nights with a rebroadcast Sunday mornings. His book \"Dark City: The Lost World Of Film Noir\" was just published in a new expanded edition. If you want to hear our 1996 interview about his book \"Grindhouse: The Forbidden World Of 'Adults Only' Cinema,\" go to our archive website. That's freshairarchive.org - freshairarchive.org. After we take a short break, our jazz critic Kevin Whitehead will review a new box set of trumpeter Lee Morgan's complete recordings from his three nights at the Lighthouse jazz club in 1970. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "An absolute pleasure, Terry. Thank you so much for inviting me. And let's not wait another 25 years."}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Nick Lowe, I want to welcome you back to FRESH AIR. You know, after September 11, it took me a couple of weeks to get back to listening to some music, partly because I'd been so tuned into all the news on radio and TV. Then the first thing I popped in the CD player after this long break from listening was your CD, and, boy, you sounded good.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. Twenty years ago, British singer, songwriter and guitarist Nick Lowe released the album \"The Convincer,\" which many fans and critics regard as h"}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 1, "text": "So I'm really glad to share your voice with our listeners now. Why don't we start with a song from the new CD? And this is called \"Between Darkness And Dawn (ph).\" And I think it's - in its own way, it really speaks to the moment.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, well, that's wonderful."}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 2, "text": "That's Nick Lowe performing in our studio. That song is also on his new CD, \"The Convincer.\" I've been thinking about one of your songs lately, \"(What's So Funny 'Bout) Peace, Love, and Understanding,\" which is a song that Elvis Costello also recorded. It's a song with an interesting history because it seems to drift back-and-forth between irony and realness", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. Here we go. (Singing, playing guitar) When you feel you're all in, and you've decided you can't win, tell yourself it won't be for long. You're between dark and dawn. You've got too much time you "}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 3, "text": ", irony and sincerity or something. Do you want to talk a little bit about the history of the song and the different meanings it's taken on over the years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. Here we go. (Singing, playing guitar) When you feel you're all in, and you've decided you can't win, tell yourself it won't be for long. You're between dark and dawn. You've got too much time you "}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Well, I think it's going to have to be sung one more time. Do you want to do a bit of it for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. It's a really funny one, that song, because I always think of it as being the first truly original idea I had - was that. I couldn't believe my luck when I thought up that title because this was "}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 5, "text": "That's Nick Lowe performing in our studio. That sounded great. How does it sound to you now? I do think there's times when it's had this ironic cast to it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Yes, certainly. (Singing, playing guitar) As I walk this wicked world, searching for light in the darkness of insanity, oh, yeah, I ask myself, is all hope gone? Is there only pain, hatred and m"}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I think when I thought it up originally, it was - everything was changing. The old hippie ideals were going, and everyone was getting a bit slick and knowing. And - so it seemed to me, anyway. An"}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 7, "text": "I was reading a review of your new CD by a reviewer who really liked it a lot and was praising you for being in your early 50s and coming up with songs that suit your age, as opposed to writing teenage kind of songs or just kind of writing beyond your period of talent,", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know, that - what is so funny about this thing? You all think that you're so clever now, you know? But it wasn't really until this - Costello recorded it, and he gave it this whole other slant."}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 8, "text": "you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know, that - what is so funny about this thing? You all think that you're so clever now, you know? But it wasn't really until this - Costello recorded it, and he gave it this whole other slant."}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 9, "text": "So - but anyways, do you feel like your songwriting has changed over the years? Do you feel like you're writing a different kind of song now...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, well."}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 10, "text": "...Either lyrically or melodically?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I think so - yes. I - well, you know, I had this brief career as a pop star in the '70s. And while it was going on, I knew that it was going to be over one day. And I didn't have that sort of Che"}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 12, "text": "It's 'cause you don't have the right clothes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Kind of thing, you know, where they managed to have that - those - their careers just stride on through the decades. You know, I knew I didn't have that."}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Well, I think Elton would be kind of cross if he heard you say that."}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Lucky guy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know, for being in my 50s."}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Do you - could you, like, articulate what you think the differences between, say, a teenage love song that wouldn't quite work for you now and the kind of ballad that you might write now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ooh, hurry up. Kind of - wait till I get to be 50, you know? So I did start working on it, on my songs to reflect. It feels easy to do it. You don't feel foolish doing it - mutton dressed up as lamb a"}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, a teenage love song might work for me now, but I don't think me kind of boasting about my conquests on the road..."}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Well, did you ever?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know, really would fly. That's the kind of thing that I can't really do anymore. And when I do shows..."}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 18, "text": "Why don't you play a song that I think does illustrate the kind of love song you're writing now? It's called \"Let's Stay In And Make Love.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I'm ashamed to say I did, really. And, you know, that was all - it was all good fun at the time. But I'm not sure if I'm thinking of a song in particular, but it's that kind of thing. I used to d"}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 19, "text": "So what came first in your life, the desire to perform or the desire to write songs?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. And we're listening to some of our interviews with British singer-songwriter and guitarist Nick Lowe. There's a new remastered anniversary edition of Lowe's 2001 album \"The Convince"}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 20, "text": "Was that guitar or piano?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, to perform, I think - I was a terrible showoff as a child. And my mom would sort of wheel me out. My parents were both very sociable, you know, and used to throw quite a lot of parties. And I was "}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, with guitar. No, I can't play the piano, unfortunately."}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 22, "text": "And when you got to, like, high school age, where people were starting bands, you were playing with Brinsley Schwarz then.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, yes, I was wheeled out to do my latest Lonnie Donegan song or pop song, you know?"}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Wow. Did it sound good?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. So I went to school with him. And he - and we had a band at school. And I became the bass player because no one else really wanted to play the bass back then. I had a friend who was pretty good a"}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Do you think that helped you as a songwriter, playing bass, because you're hearing more, like, chords and bass lines?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not really, no. You couldn't really hear it at all. But - and you had to tune it with a pair of pliers as well. The - we couldn't get the tuners for the thick strings, you know?"}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Sure, yeah. Please.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do, actually, yes, because I've got a - quite a rudimentary guitar style. But it's very - I mean, I can demonstrate..."}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 26, "text": "Nice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...To you what I mean. I call this - this song called \"Raining,\" which has got a very simple little bass line that goes like... (Singing, playing guitar) It's sunny and dry without a cloud in the sky."}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 27, "text": "Well, my guest is Nick Lowe. And he's performing some songs for us from his new album \"The Old Magic.\" And I'm going to ask you to do another song that's called \"House For Sale.\" Really, again, another really beautiful song. Would you perform it for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So you can hear the bass sort of going through it. And that sort of informed that song. I mean, I remember when I thought it out, it was very simple and kind of - not exactly original. It's like a lit"}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 28, "text": "I want to - although you're playing songs from your new album and some other songs as well, I want to actually play a track from the album because I want people to hear the production, which is so good. And you're a record producer as well as a songwriter and performer, and you produced Elvis Costello's - what? - first five albums. Do I have that right?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nick Lowe in the FRESH AIR studio, recorded in 2011. He's released a new remastered edition of his 2001 album, \"The Convincer,\" with some new material from the era. After a short break, we'll hear mor"}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 29, "text": "And the production on this album is really good. The arrangements are really good. So I thought I'd choose something that I think shows that off pretty well. And the song is called \"Checkout Time.\" And this is going to change up the pace a little bit. This is a livelier song, although it's a song that has something to do with death", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I think so."}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 30, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I think so."}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 31, "text": "So - talk about writing the song, and then we'll talk about the production.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 32, "text": "But you just said it's autobiographical. So you didn't think you'd live to see 30?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was sort of idly watching the TV one day, and the melody came into my head. I was just holding a guitar and playing a few chords as sometimes - quite often happens. And I came up with the tune"}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 33, "text": "Were you high or just eager?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think there were times, you know, that - when you were - well, it might be in any kind of walk of life. But when you're young and especially if you're in, as I was, in rock 'n' roll bands in t"}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, high was your word, Terry."}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 35, "text": "So OK, you mentioned you heard Johnny Cash singing this. And I was going to suggest Johnny Cash 'cause it's a very Cash recording kind of bass guitar sound...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I was just mad, you know, like - not mad, but yes, eager. Thank you for that."}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 36, "text": "...On this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 37, "text": "But as well as organ - so did you do the arrangement for this or have input into the arrangement for this recording?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 38, "text": "Well, I want to give our listeners a chance to hear this track. So this is called \"Checkout Time.\" And this is from Nick Lowe's new album \"The Old Magic.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 39, "text": "That's Nick Lowe from his new album \"The Old Magic,\" and the song is called \"Checkout Time.\" Are you worried about your legacy? You said this song is kind of autobiographical, unlike many of your songs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I'm 61 years old now. Lord, I never thought I'd see 30. Though I know this road is still someway to go, I can't help thinking on, will I be beloved and celebrated for my masterly climb - or "}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 40, "text": "Now, I read in Billboard one of the first songs - well, one of the first performers who you really loved was Tennessee Ernie Ford...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I'm not. No, I don't really, you know, waste too much time thinking about that. It's sort of - it's sort of pompous. There's lines in it about crossing over Jordan into glory and things like that,"}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 41, "text": "...American country singer, very deep voice. And when I was a kid, one of the early songs I remember on the radio was Tennessee Ernie Ford singing \"16 Tons.\" And I started to tell you before we did the soundcheck that that song used to terrify me as a child because it's about death, and it's about not being able to die yet because you owe your soul to the company store. And growing up in Brooklyn, I had no idea what a company store was. But I knew 16 tons, like, that weighs a lot.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh yeah."}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 42, "text": "And there's a song about death and lyrics about muscle and blood. And I thought, oh, God, this is scary stuff. Would you tell us why you like that song and maybe do a few bars of it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh yeah."}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 43, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was a little boy, of course. So muscle and blood and death and everything are far more appealing, I suppose..."}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 44, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...To the species, you know? But again, his voice, I thought - although, I liked some of his other stuff, like his sort of boogie things. He did \"Shotgun Boogie.\" And he had another one about food cal"}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 45, "text": "Can you do a little bit of \"Sixteen Tons\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And something about black-eyed pea - let me tell you, boy, when you're ill, you get a black-eyed pea instead of a pill. I'd never heard of black-eyed peas or grits or any of these things he was singin"}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 46, "text": "That sounds great. So you've known country music for a long time. I think, over the years, it sounds like your songwriting has become more and more immersed in country kind of music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'll have a go, yes. (Singing) You load 16 tons. What do you get? Another day older and deeper in debt. Saint Peter, don't you call me 'cause I can't go. I owe my soul to the company store."}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 47, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I've always liked it. But I like all sorts of other kinds..."}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 48, "text": "So you wanted a taste of that big fame and that big, like, international success. Probably, the height of your fame was when you had \"Cruel To Be Kind.\"", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. And we're listening to Terry's 2011 interview with British singer-songwriter and guitarist Nick Lowe. There's a new remastered anniversary edition of Lowe's 2001 album \"The Convince"}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 49, "text": "It was, like, '79.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that was - I think it was. That was the height of my..."}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 50, "text": "So how did it feel? Like, what was, like, a high or a low point of actually getting the fame?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 51, "text": "But that's part of what you wanted, isn't it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Looking back on it now, it was a very curious time because it felt as if it was just my turn. I didn't - I don't remember being really excited. And, I mean, it was really great fun, you know, the perk"}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 52, "text": "Why did it make you ill?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yes. But it seemed that it was just my turn. It didn't seem like I did - I really - you know, when we were striving away for this. It was like almost a voice said, you know, right, son, step for"}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 53, "text": "So did you go through this big depression afterwards?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was drinking like a fish, you know, and having to keep on coming up with new stuff, you know, and producing this - and the feeling of, whoa, grab it while it's there, you know? It just complet"}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 54, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I suppose I did. But it wasn't - you know, I'm not really a poor-me type person. But I had paused, after I'd sort of started - lied down in a darkened room, you know, for a few months..."}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 55, "text": "How do you feel you've done that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I started to think about what my situation was. And I sort of thought, well, look; you've done pretty well here, you know? You've had a few hits and produced some pretty good stuff and written some"}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 56, "text": "Had you felt that you had not been yourself before that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, a funny thing is that I always used to hear these old-timers say this - what I thought was a real copout, kind of cliche. In fact, I must say that Johnny Cash himself said this to me - Nick, all"}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 57, "text": "Have a look.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, sure. When you're young, you're anything but yourself, really. You're trying to get attention and..."}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 58, "text": "An attitude, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, have a look. And getting - well, I still like to have a look and..."}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 59, "text": "Well, as you know, I love your music, and I want you to do one more song for us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, yeah, I still enjoy that side of it, too. But, yes, you're insecure, you know, when you're starting out, unless you're really something special. But most people are insecure and trying to copy th"}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 60, "text": "And this is another song from your new album, \"The Old Magic,\" and it's called \"Somebody Cares For Me.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Certainly."}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 61, "text": "Oh, that's great. Nick Lowe, thank you so much for performing for us. I love it when you come on the show. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing, playing guitar) I'm on a lonely street, but nobody told my feet. They're walking on air 'cause somebody cares for me. I'm in a blue hotel room like a prison cell, but I'd sleep on the stairs"}
{"id": "1044304976", "date": "2021-10-08", "guest": "Nick Lowe", "title": "'Fresh Air' listens back to Nick Lowe's 2001 album, 'The Convincer'", "question_index": 62, "text": "It's great to have you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Great pleasure, Terry. Thank you."}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. When I interviewed Ahmir \"Questlove\" Thompson over the summer after the release of his documentary \"Summer Of Soul,\" at the end of the interview, I immediately invited him to come back when his book was published in the fall. Well, it comes out next week, and I'm happy to say Questlove is back to talk with us about the book. He's the co-founder of and the drummer in the hip-hop band The Roots, which is, among other things, the house band for \"The Tonight Show With Jimmy Fallon\" (ph). He's also the show's music director. He's won five Grammys. Among the things he's famous for is knowing thousands and thousands of records and being a much sought-after DJ. At President Obama's request, Questlove DJed Obama's final White House party in January 2017. The story behind that is one of the many stories Questlove tells in his new book, \"Music Is History.\" It's a year-by-year series of songs that have meant a lot to him from 1971, the year he was born, to the present. He describes what makes each of those records important, the place they hold in his life and how they reflect what was happening in America at the time. The book also includes a collection of playlists he's put together, ranging from songs he learned through other groups' samples to short songs that help him think about how stories can be told with brevity. We'll be hearing some of the records he writes about. Questlove, welcome back to FRESH AIR. I'm so glad you've come back.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 1, "text": "So let's start with a record from the year you were born. And this is a record that seems to have a lot of significance to you. It's a Tony Williams Lifetime album called \"There Comes A Time.\" And Tony Williams used to be the drummer with Miles Davis, and he started drumming with him when he was - when Tony Williams was, like, super young, still in his teens.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having me. I appreciate it. Thank you."}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 2, "text": "Yeah. And the track you've chosen from the year that you were born, 1971, which you didn't hear until years later - this is actually a vocal track with Tony Williams singing. So what is it about the lyric that really reached you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he was like 15, 16. Yeah."}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "More or less his singing delivery. Because of having perfect pitch, I'm really sensitive to when people are off-key or just a little pitchy - as singers say, pitchy - or even with rhythm, when they're"}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 4, "text": "And what about the lyric, there comes a time when you want to be older; there comes a time when you want to be bolder? Did you relate to that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, yeah, when Tony Williams starts singing, to me, it felt like the twins in Stanley Kubrick's \"The Shining\" - like, the way that they're standing in the hallway. He just sounds real eerie. (Singing)"}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Well, let's hear it. This is Tony Williams from 1971, the year Questlove was born. This is \"There Comes A Time.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I've been trying to interpret that for the longest, and it didn't make sense until I made the decision at my manager's funeral, at his homegoing service that we were going to do that song be"}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 6, "text": "So that's Tony Williams' \"There Comes A Time,\" recorded in 1971, the year Questlove was born. And that's one of the songs he writes about in his new book, \"Music Is History.\" You have a chapter on blaxploitation films and their soundtracks in your 1972 year, and you talk about \"Shaft\" and \"Super Fly,\" \"Across 110th Street.\" So you were too young - you were like 1 year old when those movies came out. But what do they - what do the soundtracks from those films come to mean to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) There comes a time when you want to be older. There comes a time when you want to be bolder. I love you more when it's over. I love you more when it's over. There comes a time when you're he"}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 7, "text": "So key modulations gave you PTSD.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In the case of \"Super Fly,\" the reason why it's so connected to me was basically because oftentimes, music can also mark tragedy. And I know it's kind of weird. Like, half of these - almost more than "}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Whoa. Do you think part of the reason you play drums is that you don't have to play key modulations? There's no...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It did. It did for the longest. Like, it was - I was maybe 16 before those burn marks, like, weren't on my leg anymore, so..."}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 9, "text": "There are no chords when you're playing drums.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know..."}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 10, "text": "I mean, there's tonal shifts, but they're not chords.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 11, "text": "So which part of \"Freddie's Dead\" should we play?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, they're not chords. I really don't know. That's something to think about. It's a - that's a good observation."}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You can go do the scary part. I'm fine."}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 13, "text": "OK. So let's hear it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In the middle when the song changes to the next key - that's the part."}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 14, "text": "OK. That was the part that modulates in \"Freddie's Dead,\" which...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Hey, hey. Love, love. Hey, hey. Yeah, yeah. Ha, ha. Love, love. Yeah, yeah. Ha, ha. Yeah, yeah. Freddie's dead."}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Can you still listen to that without getting thrown back into a state of fear?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Hey, hey. Love, love. Hey, hey. Yeah, yeah. Ha, ha. Love, love. Yeah, yeah. Ha, ha. Yeah, yeah. Freddie's dead."}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 16, "text": "Wow. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I cannot separate my brain from thinking about that moment. The second that happens, it's just - put your thigh on an iron for about five seconds. Like, that's what it feels like. So..."}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 17, "text": "I think we need to take a short break here, so let's do that and then we'll talk more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Ahmir \"Questlove\" Thompson. He has a new book called \"Music Is History.\" We'll be right back after this break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Ahmir \"Questlove\" Thompson, co-founder of the hip-hop band The Roots, which is the house band for \"The Tonight Show With Jimmy Fallon.\" Questlove directed the documentary \"Summer Of Soul,\" which was released over the summer. His new book is called \"Music Is History.\" He chooses one or more recordings from each year since his birth in 1971 and describes their personal and historical significance. Let's move forward a few years now. We could stop in 1978, in which you write about disco. You were 7 at the time. You have interesting thoughts about disco, about how some of it was actually interesting. A lot of it was just very kind of almost like a factory churning it out. But one of the things you say that I found really interesting is that you thought disco was kind of tragic for some of the musicians during that period. Can you talk about that a little bit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 19, "text": "Something I had to go back and listen to because I hadn't heard it before is that James Brown had a disco recording called \"The Original Disco Man.\" I don't know what you think of it. I think it's so bad. You know, it was a period when everybody was kind of forced to do a disco recording because that's what was selling. And all kinds of people were put in the disco format with horrible results. And I think, wow, this is a really strange example of it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I can only imagine that - to have to be as disciplined as a musician - to be that disciplined could be somewhat constraining. But I understand that the purpose of it was to play something for 12"}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 20, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. So for a James Brown-ologist, there's really two ways to look at his album canon. And really, when you're talking about his true zone, you're kind of talking 1967. Even though he had hits before '"}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. I respect, even if it's horrible, it's interesting. In my opinion, he's never made a bad record. It's just what we would deem classic and horrible. He was never mediocre, which is great,"}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 22, "text": "So should we hear just a little bit of a James Brown horrible record?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because I think at the end of the day, you just have to be interesting."}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 23, "text": "He's \"The Original Disco Man.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Depending on which song you want to play."}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 24, "text": "OK, so we're playing this as a curiosity with no disrespect to James Brown. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The title cut? Yes, that's absolutely, positively a great example of that. Yes."}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 25, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely not. I think it's classic..."}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 26, "text": "OK. And this is from the 1978 chapter of Questlove's new book, \"Music Is History.\" That's where this song fits in.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...In the weirdest way possible."}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 27, "text": "That was James Brown during the disco era, where everybody was forced to make disco recordings", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) He's the original disco man with the original disco band. He's the original disco man. His groove is where it all began. He's the original disco..."}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 28, "text": ". And yes, it's one of the songs referred to in Questlove's new book, \"Music Is History.\" OK, let's go to another song. And this is a song by The Police, who I was a little surprised to see in the book. But this is a song with real personal significance to you, in part because of the lyric and also because of the production.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) He's the original disco man with the original disco band. He's the original disco man. His groove is where it all began. He's the original disco..."}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 29, "text": "So tell us what about the lyric reached you? Now, I should mention, the song itself came out in '79. But you didn't hear it until two years later, in 1981, when you were 10. What was it about the lyric that you responded to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 30, "text": "In the book, you say you had a lot of social anxiety when you were young and that this lyric really spoke to you about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was, like, one of the first self-deprecation songs that I heard. You know, I changed my clothes 10 times before I took you on a date. And, you know, I'm so nervous and scared and that sort "}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 31, "text": "Was it helpful to find the word social anxiety, to have, like, a word describing the feeling?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 32, "text": "Yeah. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm a self-admitted reluctant leader. I have miraculously found awesome ways to become this sort of iconic figure without ever having to leave my post. Like, I'm kind of like \"Wizard Of Oz.\""}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 33, "text": "You know, on that note, I think about you DJing at parties. So - like, on the one hand, like, you're the center of the party. On the other hand, you're not in the middle of the party. You're set apart from it, at the turn tables.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I hide behind Tariq. I hide behind Jimmy Fallon. I hide behind these books. I hide behind my Instagram posts. Like, everything that I've done always has a shield that prevents people from really, real"}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 34, "text": "You don't have to talk to people. You don't even have to dance.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely."}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 35, "text": "You could just be spinning the records or tapes or whatever it is that you're doing there. So is that part of the pleasure of DJing is that you could be in the party, be the center, but not have to be socially present?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely."}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 36, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. It makes me omnipresent. It gets me all the elation in the world if I play the right song. And it allows me to be antisocial."}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 37, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like, the yelling - whoop - that's enough for me. Like, when I hear..."}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 38, "text": "So we should hear The Police doing \"Does Everyone Stare,\" Which is the song that has led to this part of the conversation. And it's one of the songs that Questlove writes about in his new book, \"Music Is History.\" The song is from 1979, but Questlove first heard it in '81.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If you play the right song, whoop."}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 39, "text": "So that was The Police recorded in 1979. And it's one of the songs that Questlove writes about in his new book, \"Music Is History.\" We're going to have to take a short break here, so let's do that and then we'll be right back. We'll talk more, and we'll hear some music. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I change my clothes 10 times before I take you on a date. I'm in a cold sweat, I panic, and it makes me late. I knew you never asked for this. I know my shots will always misfire. My shots w"}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 40, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Ahmir \"Questlove\" Thompson, co-founder of the hip-hop band The Roots, the house band for \"The Tonight Show With Jimmy Fallon.\" He's also the music director on the show. He directed the documentary \"Summer Of Soul\" about the 1969 Harlem Cultural Festival. That film was released over the summer. In his new book, \"Music Is History,\" he chooses one or more recordings from each year since his birth in 1971 and describes their personal and historical significance. Your new book is a year-by-year history of songs that have special significance for you since your year of birth in 1971. For 1988, you write about Public Enemy's album \"It Takes A Nation Of Millions To Hold Us Back,\" which is a...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right, Afrobeat (ph). Go back (ph). Angry solo (ph)."}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 41, "text": "...Pivotal record for a lot of people. I think it was maybe especially pivotal for you, both in terms of, like, music, but also changing the course of your life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 42, "text": "You were working at a '50s-themed fast food place in Philly?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 43, "text": "Where was that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Big Al's."}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 44, "text": "Well, how did that music - how did that album tell you that you needed to change the direction of your life and quit your job at Big Al's?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was on Penn's campus, on 34th and Walnut. All I can simply say is that I think every teenager has that one moment in his life or her life or their life in which the possibilities of what life has t"}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 45, "text": "Well, you were already playing with The Roots, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. So what makes Public Enemy one of the most important artists ever is the fact that in one fell swoop, they literally made my dad's entire record collection cool because their pop art, Jackson Poll"}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 46, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We were a year into it. But, you know - I mean, to be honest with you, I - you know, The Roots kind of started with a lie. Like, I was just trying to impress a girl that I liked in high school. And I "}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 47, "text": "So which track from \"It Takes A Nation Of Millions\" best illustrates your father's record collection?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah. We got a group. And then that's kind of how it was. Like, we'd just freestyle at lunch period. Like, we did one talent show, and Boyz II Men got all the attention and all the girls crying "}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 48, "text": "OK, so let's hear it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "His absolute disdain for the track \"Rebel Without A Pause\" - he thought it was a teakettle going off and just thought it was absolute noise. And you know, little did he know, that was just his beloved"}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 49, "text": "That's Public Enemy from 1988. And that's a song from one of the albums that Questlove writes about in his new book, \"Music Is History.\" Well, let's take another short break here. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) Yes, the rhythm, the rebel. Without a pause, I'm lowering my level. The hard rhymer, where you never been, I'm in. You want stylin'? You know it's time again. D, the enemy, tellin' you to he"}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 50, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Ahmir \"Questlove\" Thompson. His new book is called \"Music Is History.\" And in the book, he chooses one or more recordings from each year since his birth in 1971 and describes their personal and historical significance. He's a - he's the co-founder of the hip-hop band The Roots, the house band for \"The Tonight Show With Jimmy Fallon.\" And he directed the documentary \"Summer Of Love,\" which came out over the summer. And that's a documentary about the 1969 Harlem Cultural Festival. There's a lot of drama attached to the day you were signed to Geffen.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) Yes, the rhythm, the rebel. Without a pause, I'm lowering my level. The hard rhymer, where you never been, I'm in. You want stylin'? You know it's time again. D, the enemy, tellin' you to he"}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 51, "text": "It's the day your mother told you she was going to divorce your father. So you're like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep."}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 52, "text": "You're coming home with this, like, great news, and she's hitting you with this, like - I don't know how you thought of the news of the divorce, but - how did you think about it - like, what was that day, this big collision of, you know, shocking news and great news about your record?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 53, "text": "So when you signed the - I mean, when you signed on to the label, your father still didn't know.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it just - first of all, to break the news to my dad that the group even existed in the first place and, surprise, I'm not going to college; here's my record deal; don't get mad - like, that was,"}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 54, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He didn't know until it was absolutely unavoidable."}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 55, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like, it's hard to keep a secret from your dad when you're on MTV and BET and Rolling Stone."}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 56, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're getting all this press."}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 57, "text": "So let's talk about the news from your mother...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're, like, trying to hide newspapers and - nothing. But, yeah, literally, the night of our celebration of signing, I was like, all right, I'm going to tell my dad about the band. I mean, I knew tha"}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 58, "text": "...Hitting you at the same time as you just are celebrating.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So she leaves..."}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 59, "text": "Yeah, your father was, you know, in the group Lee Andrews & the Hearts, which had several hits. Well, let's take another short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Ahmir \"Questlove\" Thompson. His new book is called \"Music Is History.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, she laid the news on me at the same time, the night of our - kind of our victory party, which, you know, was really doom and gloom for me because my whole identity was, like, the one kid that ha"}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 60, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Ahmir \"Questlove\" Thompson, co-founder of the hip-hop band The Roots, which is the house band for \"The Tonight Show With Jimmy Fallon.\" He directed the documentary \"Summer Of Soul,\" which came out over the summer, documenting the 1969 Harlem Cultural Festival. His new book is called \"Music Is History.\" He chooses one or more recordings from each year since his birth in 1971 and describes their personal and historical significance. So I'm going to skip ahead to 9/11 and - 'cause you write about what that was like for you in your new book, \"Music Is History.\" So you were in - on 9/11, you were in a hotel in Midtown Manhattan.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, she laid the news on me at the same time, the night of our - kind of our victory party, which, you know, was really doom and gloom for me because my whole identity was, like, the one kid that ha"}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 61, "text": "No, really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. What makes that day significant was, one, it was Michael Jackson's 30th anniversary, so hotels were booked. And it was also fashion week 'cause it's September, and that was booked. And Bono had "}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 62, "text": "That's an amazing story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The only thing that saved me was the fact that usually around 1:00 in the morning or 2:00 in the morning, hotels will refresh their system. And, you know, depending on the computer they have, it takes"}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 63, "text": "So you find out what happens. You know, people are calling you and texting you. You find out what happens. And your first response is, OK, you extended your stay at the hotel. And then you paid a taxi driver $100 to take you to the Virgin record store, which is a few blocks away. It's just amazing that your first reaction was I got to get some more music. It's like, the world may be ending, I'd better get some more records. Like, what was going through your mind when that's what you did?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And..."}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 64, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I ran - I had my wallet on me. And I saw a taxi. And, you know, he seemed rather calm. He was like the only calming figure out there. I said, can you drive to the Virgin Megastore real quick? And I"}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 65, "text": "That was the Jay-Z album.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Came out with like eight bags. And I just went in my room, which is weird enough because I only listened to \"The Blueprint.\" I got to my room."}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 66, "text": "Were you not expecting to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah, the Jay-Z record. That's all I did. I just sat there and listened to it. And a funny thing happened. I liked that record."}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 67, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In which I was, quote, \"supposed to not\" - \"I was supposed to not like that record.\" Like, there was there was an apartheid happening in hip-hop between the haves and the have-nots. The successful rap"}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 68, "text": "Well, we should hear something from \"Blueprint,\" from the Jay-Z album that you're talking about. What would you like to play from it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's just like, look. I want you to breathe. This is important. I'm telling Jay that you like the record. And I really thought, like, my career was going to end. Like, what if the world finds out I ta"}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 69, "text": "OK. Let's hear it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Um, wow. It's - let's see. Probably I would play \"Izzo,\" the most popular cut on that record produced by Kanye West - \"Izzo.\""}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 70, "text": "That was Jay-Z from his album \"Blueprint,\" one of the albums that Questlove writes about in his new book \"Music Is History,\" a year-by-year history of songs that have meant a lot to him since the year of his birth in 1971. So just playlists - the book is filled with playlists. And that's one of the things you're famous for. Obama asked you to do a playlist, and you never finished it. You - like, you were so conscientious about wanting to do, like, the perfect song for each, you know, for each track on the playlist.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I appreciate that. (Rapping) H to the izz-O, V to the izz-A. For shizzle, my nizzle, used to dribble down in VA, was herbing 'em in the home of the Terrapins, got it dirt cheap for them. Plus if they "}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 71, "text": "Wait. You're still working on the Obama playlist?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It took me for - yeah, by the time his presidency ended, I think I was still on, like, the letter P. And then I just realized the playlist never ends. Like, even to this day - since the beginning of \""}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 72, "text": "Someday.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's weird because I just did his 60th birthday party. He allowed a redo. If you remember the last time I was on your show, I mentioned, like, how disastrous the White House gig was, me overthinking i"}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 73, "text": "It's been great to talk with you again. Thank you so much for coming on our show. I always really enjoy our conversations.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One day - yeah, one day - I promised him this year for 60th that I'd start his allowance. And it's always when he does his summer list thing that I feel the need to really intervene and give him music"}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 74, "text": "Ahmir \"Questlove\" Thompson's new book is called \"Music Is History.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll hear a remarkable story of beating the odds. Our guest will be Richard Antoine White. As a young child, he slept in abandoned houses and parks in Baltimore, but he became the first Black American to earn a doctorate in tuba performance and is now principal tubist for the New Mexico Philharmonic. He has a new memoir called \"I'm Possible.\" I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. I love talking to you, too. Thank you."}
{"id": "1045247409", "date": "2021-10-12", "guest": "The Tony Williams Lifetime", "title": "Questlove spins the soundtrack of his life in 'Music is History'", "question_index": 75, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our senior producer today is Sam Briger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Seth Kelley, Kayla Lattimore and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. I love talking to you, too. Thank you."}
{"id": "1046008243", "date": "2021-10-14", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "The 'Pandora Papers' expose the secret financial dealings of the global elite", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Dictators, oligarchs, drug traffickers, crooks and others with ill-gotten fortunes can hide their money from public scrutiny, from creditors and from the law while, at the same time, avoid paying taxes. How? By stashing the wealth in opaque, complicated financial instruments in other countries. It's called offshoring. Offshore havens were popularized by island and coastal locations, which is how the secretive system became known as offshoring. But now more countries are sheltering money, including the U.S., in states like South Dakota, Delaware and Nevada. New revelations about who's hiding the money and how and where they're stashing it have been published in an investigative series in The Washington Post. The Post is part of the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists, the ICIJ, which is jointly investigating the meaning of nearly 12 million documents leaked to the consortium that reveal the flow of money, property and other assets concealed in the offshore financial system. These documents are known as the Pandora Papers. It's kind of the sequel to the Panama Papers, which was a smaller trove of documents revealing how money was being sheltered in Panama. Those papers were leaked to the ICIJ, too. My guest, Greg Miller, was one of the lead investigative reporters on the story. He's a Washington Post investigative foreign correspondent based in London. He's also the author of the book \"The Apprentice: Trump, Russia And The Subversion Of American Democracy.\" He was among The Post reporters awarded the 2018 Pulitzer Prize for its coverage of Russia's interference in the election and the fallout under the Trump administration. Greg Miller, welcome back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1046008243", "date": "2021-10-14", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "The 'Pandora Papers' expose the secret financial dealings of the global elite", "question_index": 1, "text": "Let me just start with a broad question. Give us the scope of the Pandora Papers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks very much."}
{"id": "1046008243", "date": "2021-10-14", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "The 'Pandora Papers' expose the secret financial dealings of the global elite", "question_index": 2, "text": "One thing I found just, like, almost funny is that - though it's not funny at all, really - but that, you know, America's wealthiest, like the big billionaires, don't have offshore accounts that appeared in these Pandora Papers. And the explanation given in The Post is that America's wealthy have so many ways of, like, not paying taxes already they don't need to shelter their money offshore.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. So I think as you mentioned in the intro, there are nearly 12 million documents here in this trove. It's different than the Panama Papers, which a lot of your listeners might be familiar with, i"}
{"id": "1046008243", "date": "2021-10-14", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "The 'Pandora Papers' expose the secret financial dealings of the global elite", "question_index": 3, "text": "So who are some of the people on the list with the offshore accounts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean, that's one possibility, I have to - so the richest of the rich in the United States - and we saw this with the groundbreaking stories on Donald Trump's tax returns - pay, you know, micro"}
{"id": "1046008243", "date": "2021-10-14", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "The 'Pandora Papers' expose the secret financial dealings of the global elite", "question_index": 4, "text": "And of course, Putin", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There are hundreds, maybe thousands, of people who are on the list. To me, a couple of the most interesting were senior people, leaders of foreign governments, including King Abdullah of Jordan. There"}
{"id": "1046008243", "date": "2021-10-14", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "The 'Pandora Papers' expose the secret financial dealings of the global elite", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There are hundreds, maybe thousands, of people who are on the list. To me, a couple of the most interesting were senior people, leaders of foreign governments, including King Abdullah of Jordan. There"}
{"id": "1046008243", "date": "2021-10-14", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "The 'Pandora Papers' expose the secret financial dealings of the global elite", "question_index": 6, "text": "And we will get into some of those details briefly. So tell us more about the benefits of offshoring.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And of course, Putin. I left out Putin. I mean, Putin, I didn't - I left him out for a reason because he himself doesn't show up in the documents, which was true of Panama Papers as well. But people w"}
{"id": "1046008243", "date": "2021-10-14", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "The 'Pandora Papers' expose the secret financial dealings of the global elite", "question_index": 7, "text": "So who are the losers when wealthy people and when world leaders shelter their money offshore?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK, so the benefits include hiding wealth or income and moving it to jurisdictions where there is a much lower tax rate. And that's why these places are called tax havens. If you're in a country, say,"}
{"id": "1046008243", "date": "2021-10-14", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "The 'Pandora Papers' expose the secret financial dealings of the global elite", "question_index": 8, "text": "It makes the gap between the rich and everybody else even bigger when you take into account that a lot of people who are rich have money we don't even know about that we're not even calculating in that gap.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When you think about it broadly, Terry, I think the real answer is everybody who's not wealthy, everybody who's not taking advantage of this system. And I don't think that's an exaggeration. If wealth"}
{"id": "1046008243", "date": "2021-10-14", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "The 'Pandora Papers' expose the secret financial dealings of the global elite", "question_index": 9, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Greg Miller, a Washington Post foreign investigative correspondent based in London and one of the lead reporters on the story of the Pandora Papers. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And, you know, there are - almost by definition, there are no completely accurate estimates of how much money is hidden offshore. But the smartest estimates seem to be well into the trillions of"}
{"id": "1046008243", "date": "2021-10-14", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "The 'Pandora Papers' expose the secret financial dealings of the global elite", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Greg Miller, Washington Post foreign investigative correspondent based in London and one of the lead reporters on the story of the Pandora Papers. This is an investigation into the offshore financial havens that allow dictators, oligarchs, drug traffickers, crooks and others with ill-gotten fortunes to hide their money from public scrutiny, from creditors, from the law, while at the same time avoiding paying taxes. OK. Let's talk about Putin's alleged girlfriend. This was one of the stories that you investigated. So just tell us first, who is she? She did not start off rich. She got rich very suddenly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And, you know, there are - almost by definition, there are no completely accurate estimates of how much money is hidden offshore. But the smartest estimates seem to be well into the trillions of"}
{"id": "1046008243", "date": "2021-10-14", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "The 'Pandora Papers' expose the secret financial dealings of the global elite", "question_index": 11, "text": "So this starts shortly after Krivonogikh gives birth to a daughter that is alleged to be Putin's daughter.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. In fact, there's hardly anything in her background that put her on a path to being rich aside from a possible relationship with the Russian president. So her name is Svetlana Krivonogikh"}
{"id": "1046008243", "date": "2021-10-14", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "The 'Pandora Papers' expose the secret financial dealings of the global elite", "question_index": 12, "text": "What are some of the other things that she acquired or had a financial stake in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. One of the things - one of the astonishing details we found in the Pandora Papers is that almost exactly one month after Svetlana gives birth to a daughter, to a baby girl, a shell company is se"}
{"id": "1046008243", "date": "2021-10-14", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "The 'Pandora Papers' expose the secret financial dealings of the global elite", "question_index": 13, "text": "So the picture that you're drawing is that Putin is sheltering money not only in Monaco, but also in Russia itself. And is it clear to you whether she actually owns the assets, that if you investigate deeply enough, are in her name? Or is Putin just using her as a front for money and assets that are really his?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For Svetlana, this condominium or this apartment in Monaco was just one of many assets that she accumulated over a 10-year or so stretch. She became a shareholder in a major bank in Russia called Bank"}
{"id": "1046008243", "date": "2021-10-14", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "The 'Pandora Papers' expose the secret financial dealings of the global elite", "question_index": 14, "text": "So did she live in this fabulous place and Monte Carlo, Svetlana?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, that's really a great question, and it's one that nobody really has a clear answer to. It seems likely that these were - if it's true that Vladimir Putin is the father of Svetlana's daughter"}
{"id": "1046008243", "date": "2021-10-14", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "The 'Pandora Papers' expose the secret financial dealings of the global elite", "question_index": 15, "text": "So we don't know whether she ever did live there or not.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's hard to know. She's owned it for coming up on 20 years now. And it's not clear whether she ever lived there, or if she did, for how long. I made an attempt along with some other reporters on the "}
{"id": "1046008243", "date": "2021-10-14", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "The 'Pandora Papers' expose the secret financial dealings of the global elite", "question_index": 16, "text": "And her middle name is Vladimirovna, which means daughter of Vladimir.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. The only - so there is - there are some other clues here. So her daughter - Svetlana herself has barely registered in public. She's barely spoken in public. She's never done any interviews that we"}
{"id": "1046008243", "date": "2021-10-14", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "The 'Pandora Papers' expose the secret financial dealings of the global elite", "question_index": 17, "text": "Were you really surprised when you found out that Brockville was attached to the woman who was alleged to be Putin's girlfriend, and also it's alleged that Putin is the father of this woman's child?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Which, by the way, she's recently - so I mentioned she has these social media accounts, and for a long time didn't use a middle initial on those accounts. But very recently, just as we were comin"}
{"id": "1046008243", "date": "2021-10-14", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "The 'Pandora Papers' expose the secret financial dealings of the global elite", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. So, I mean, I wasn't as surprised, necessarily surprised, that - surprised maybe isn't the word I would use. I mean, I was delighted. I was happy."}
{"id": "1046008243", "date": "2021-10-14", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "The 'Pandora Papers' expose the secret financial dealings of the global elite", "question_index": 19, "text": "Do you have any idea what Putin's reaction is to your story about this, your investigation into this particular part of the Pandora Papers, and also if Russian readers are finding out about it and what impact that's having in Russia?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was, wow, this is going to be a great story. There's a - there are documents here about this woman who is alleged to have had this affair and a child with Vladimir Putin, and they tell us about some"}
{"id": "1046008243", "date": "2021-10-14", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "The 'Pandora Papers' expose the secret financial dealings of the global elite", "question_index": 20, "text": "Do you have any idea whether they're still in a relationship, Putin and Svetlana?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, the impact - it's hard to assess. Putin was asked - I think, if I'm not mistaken - I think he was asked shortly in a public appearance or something about the Pandora Papers and scoffed at this"}
{"id": "1046008243", "date": "2021-10-14", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "The 'Pandora Papers' expose the secret financial dealings of the global elite", "question_index": 21, "text": "All right. Let's take another break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Greg Miller, a Washington Post foreign investigative correspondent based in London and one of the lead reporters on the story of the Pandora Papers. We'll be back after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and THIS IS FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I mean, we don't know exactly when the relationship began or whether it ended and whether or when it ended."}
{"id": "1046008243", "date": "2021-10-14", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "The 'Pandora Papers' expose the secret financial dealings of the global elite", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Greg Miller, a Washington Post foreign investigative correspondent based in London and one of the lead reporters on the story of the Pandora Papers. This is an investigation into the offshore financial havens that allow dictators, oligarchs, drug traffickers, crooks and others with ill-gotten fortunes to hide their money from public scrutiny, from creditors and from the law while, at the same time, avoid paying taxes. The investigation is based on leaked papers from 14 financial institutions. These nearly 12 million documents are known as the Pandora Papers. So another part of the Russia story that you investigated was how some oligarchs are hiding their money. And some of those oligarchs have names that will be familiar to many of our listeners through their relationship to members of Trump's inner circle, oligarchs like Oleg Deripaska, the aluminum magnate. And I'm sure some of these names are very familiar to you because you investigated the connections between Trump and Russia for your book \"The Apprentice.\" So was this some of the, like, oligarch greatest hits for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I mean, we don't know exactly when the relationship began or whether it ended and whether or when it ended."}
{"id": "1046008243", "date": "2021-10-14", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "The 'Pandora Papers' expose the secret financial dealings of the global elite", "question_index": 23, "text": "The U.S. sanctioned some of the oligarchs, and you were able to see through the Pandora Papers if these sanctions were effective. What did you learn?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. This was a question that I really wanted to look at once I knew I was going to be part of this project. I mean, of course, you're going to look to see what - how many Russian oligarchs are in th"}
{"id": "1046008243", "date": "2021-10-14", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "The 'Pandora Papers' expose the secret financial dealings of the global elite", "question_index": 24, "text": "Oh, let's not forget about the major hack of U.S. federal agencies and businesses.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think so - that was, like, one of the fundamental questions that I thought would be interesting to kind of take on in this project. If the oligarchs are in these documents and we're looking - "}
{"id": "1046008243", "date": "2021-10-14", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "The 'Pandora Papers' expose the secret financial dealings of the global elite", "question_index": 25, "text": "So why are the oligarchs hiding their money? My impression is, in Russia, if you're an oligarch who's tight with Putin, you can do whatever you want. So why do they need to hide their money in secret offshore places?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "SolarWinds, yeah. So the hacks, the ransomware attacks, if anything, are - seem to be occurring even more frequently."}
{"id": "1046008243", "date": "2021-10-14", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "The 'Pandora Papers' expose the secret financial dealings of the global elite", "question_index": 26, "text": "Paul Manafort, who was Trump's campaign manager for a while, was investigated by Robert Mueller and convicted - he was sheltering money offshore, wasn't he?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that your question almost answers itself in some way. So if you're an oligarch and you're tight with Putin and you can do whatever you want, what happens when you're no longer tight with"}
{"id": "1046008243", "date": "2021-10-14", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "The 'Pandora Papers' expose the secret financial dealings of the global elite", "question_index": 27, "text": "And he was connected to some of the Russian oligarchs, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, exactly."}
{"id": "1046008243", "date": "2021-10-14", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "The 'Pandora Papers' expose the secret financial dealings of the global elite", "question_index": 28, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Greg Miller, a Washington Post foreign investigative correspondent based in London and one of the lead reporters on the story of the Pandora Papers. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Including Deripaska - most prominently, Deripaska. And - right, exactly. The Manafort investigation and charges against Manafort were largely charges of money laundering and of hiding illegally gained"}
{"id": "1046008243", "date": "2021-10-14", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "The 'Pandora Papers' expose the secret financial dealings of the global elite", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Greg Miller of The Washington Post. He's one of the lead reporters on the Pandora Papers, which is an investigation into the offshore financial havens that allowed dictators, oligarchs, drug traffickers and crooks, people with ill-gotten fortunes, to hide their money from public scrutiny from creditors and from the law and to avoid paying taxes. The investigation is based on leaked papers from 14 financial institutions. These nearly 12 million documents are known as the Pandora Papers. So we keep referring to this system of sheltering money as offshoring, as sheltering money in offshore havens. However, the United States has become a major haven for offshoring money. And one of the capitals of that in the U.S. is South Dakota - Sioux Falls. That seems so improbable. How did South Dakota become a haven for sheltering money from other countries?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Including Deripaska - most prominently, Deripaska. And - right, exactly. The Manafort investigation and charges against Manafort were largely charges of money laundering and of hiding illegally gained"}
{"id": "1046008243", "date": "2021-10-14", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "The 'Pandora Papers' expose the secret financial dealings of the global elite", "question_index": 30, "text": "So was it financial institutions who were proposing the legislation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm glad you're asking this question. And for starters, you know, I would - my colleague Debbie Cenziper and Will Fitzgibbon from the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists did a "}
{"id": "1046008243", "date": "2021-10-14", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "The 'Pandora Papers' expose the secret financial dealings of the global elite", "question_index": 31, "text": "Is there anything in it for South Dakota to be harboring so much secretive money?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. These are lobbyists and executives with financial institutions who, over time, you know, just kept proposing new pieces of legislation that would ratchet up the secrecy, that would make things l"}
{"id": "1046008243", "date": "2021-10-14", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "The 'Pandora Papers' expose the secret financial dealings of the global elite", "question_index": 32, "text": "Is there any suspicion that the legislators gained by passing this legislation that allowed for these secret financial havens in South Dakota?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, when you look at the states that are taking these kinds of steps and positioning themselves as kind of the equivalent of offshore havens, they tend to be states that are struggling to attract "}
{"id": "1046008243", "date": "2021-10-14", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "The 'Pandora Papers' expose the secret financial dealings of the global elite", "question_index": 33, "text": "One of your sources told you that the money being sheltered offshore in the U.S. in places like South Dakota could pose a national security threat. What did he mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that there is suspicion that they gained, at least through the donations and support politically from financial firms, including Trident Trust. You know - I mean, that's sort of the way "}
{"id": "1046008243", "date": "2021-10-14", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "The 'Pandora Papers' expose the secret financial dealings of the global elite", "question_index": 34, "text": "OK. Let's take another short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Greg Miller, a Washington Post foreign investigative correspondent based in London. He's one of the lead reporters on the story of the Pandora Papers. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think you're talking about Juan Zarate. And Juan is really smart on this stuff. And he's actually written about the, you know, the Pandora papers and their implications. And I mean, he makes a reall"}
{"id": "1046008243", "date": "2021-10-14", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "The 'Pandora Papers' expose the secret financial dealings of the global elite", "question_index": 35, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Greg Miller, a Washington Post foreign investigative correspondent based in London and one of the lead reporters on the story of the Pandora Papers. This is an investigation into the offshore financial havens that allow dictators, crooks and others with ill-gotten fortunes to hide their money from creditors and public scrutiny and from the law and avoid paying taxes. The investigation is based on leaked papers from 14 financial institutions. These nearly 12 million documents are known as the Pandora Papers. One of the stories that you investigated was the story of King Abdullah from Jordan, who has a constellation of shell companies to conceal purchases of luxury properties in California, London and Washington, D.C. Why does a king need to shelter money? I think King Abdullah is even exempt from paying taxes, and he is the king. Doesn't that mean basically he can do what he wants?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think you're talking about Juan Zarate. And Juan is really smart on this stuff. And he's actually written about the, you know, the Pandora papers and their implications. And I mean, he makes a reall"}
{"id": "1046008243", "date": "2021-10-14", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "The 'Pandora Papers' expose the secret financial dealings of the global elite", "question_index": 36, "text": "Does he live in any of these properties or visit them, stay in them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, that's what - that was my argument in the letters that we sent to the king and to the government of Jordan. That was one of my questions. I mean, if you're a king, you could easily argue - mak"}
{"id": "1046008243", "date": "2021-10-14", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "The 'Pandora Papers' expose the secret financial dealings of the global elite", "question_index": 37, "text": "So whether or not the king's using these properties or whether his children are using the properties, it seems that real estate is a popular way of sheltering money. And why is that? Because among the issues surrounding that is that when wealthy people from abroad buy up really expensive real estate and don't actually use it, it tends to kind of freak out real estate prices in that area. I know London's going through that. I think New York has gone through that. So can you talk a little bit about sheltering money in real estate?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that he visits, you know, as far - we don't have his full itinerary. We don't know how often he visits these properties or how much time he spends in them when he does. We do know that he's be"}
{"id": "1046008243", "date": "2021-10-14", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "The 'Pandora Papers' expose the secret financial dealings of the global elite", "question_index": 38, "text": "Meanwhile, in Jordan, the King has instituted austerity measures. Jordan is not a wealthy country, unlike some of the other Gulf nations. So he's like secreting all this money away in offshore accounts and buying up, you know, very expensive real estate while his country is really financially suffering. How is the revelations of the Pandora Papers playing in Jordan?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's a huge, huge issue, a global issue. And you're right, Terry, it distorts the real estate market when you have individuals - Saudi billionaires, Russian oligarchs or whoever - buying real es"}
{"id": "1046008243", "date": "2021-10-14", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "The 'Pandora Papers' expose the secret financial dealings of the global elite", "question_index": 39, "text": "The United States is giving a lot of money to Jordan in aid. Meanwhile, Jordan's king is sheltering a lot of money in the U.S. It's a strange equation. Is there any hint that U.S. aid or aid to Jordan from other countries, that some of it is being pocketed by the king, who's then sheltering the money in secret places?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, this is such an important point, Terry. And I want to just sort of dwell on it for a minute. You know, when you - when we write stories about a royal figure from the Middle East buying luxur"}
{"id": "1046008243", "date": "2021-10-14", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "The 'Pandora Papers' expose the secret financial dealings of the global elite", "question_index": 40, "text": "What impact so far has the Pandora Papers investigation had around the world?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the U.S. officials I talked to said that the American aid is very closely accounted for. They don't really suspect or believe that it has been diverted or abused. The king, through his lawyers, ins"}
{"id": "1046008243", "date": "2021-10-14", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "The 'Pandora Papers' expose the secret financial dealings of the global elite", "question_index": 41, "text": "Greg Miller, thank you so much for the reporting. And thank you so much for joining us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I think we're starting to - we've seen impact in big ways and small ways all around the world already. There have been announcements of investigations in countries including the Czech Republic, cou"}
{"id": "1046008243", "date": "2021-10-14", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "The 'Pandora Papers' expose the secret financial dealings of the global elite", "question_index": 42, "text": "My pleasure. Greg Miller is a foreign investigative correspondent for The Washington Post. He's a lead reporter on The Post's Pandora Paper series. He spoke to us from London. Our interview was recorded yesterday. If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed - like this week's interview with the cave diver who helped rescue a group of boys from a long, winding underground cave in northern Thailand in 2018, or with Ahmir Questlove Thompson about his new book, which is a year-by-year reflection on songs that have personal significance - check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, thanks for having me. Thanks for focusing on this topic. I really appreciate it."}
{"id": "1046008243", "date": "2021-10-14", "guest": "Greg Miller", "title": "The 'Pandora Papers' expose the secret financial dealings of the global elite", "question_index": 43, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our senior producer today is Sam Briger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Kayla Lattimore. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Therese Madden directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, thanks for having me. Thanks for focusing on this topic. I really appreciate it."}
{"id": "1045995752", "date": "2021-10-15", "guest": "Amy Reid", "title": "In 'Maid,' a single mother struggles to make it on minimum wage", "question_index": 0, "text": "Stephanie Land, Welcome to FRESH AIR. The first sentence of your book is, my daughter learned to walk in a homeless shelter. What were the circumstances that led you to live in a shelter?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Stephanie Land had planned to go to college with a hope of becoming a writer, but an unplanned pregnancy changed that. She got out of a relationship that had become abusive and became a single mother,"}
{"id": "1045995752", "date": "2021-10-15", "guest": "Amy Reid", "title": "In 'Maid,' a single mother struggles to make it on minimum wage", "question_index": 1, "text": "Port Townsend, Wash.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we - Mia and I - lived with her dad for a bit of her life, but mainly for the six months previous to the homeless shelter. And it was a toxic relationship. And he kind of forcefully asked us to "}
{"id": "1045995752", "date": "2021-10-15", "guest": "Amy Reid", "title": "In 'Maid,' a single mother struggles to make it on minimum wage", "question_index": 2, "text": "So this was, like, a small-town shelter, not an urban shelter. Would you describe the shelter?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Port Townsend, Wash., yup."}
{"id": "1045995752", "date": "2021-10-15", "guest": "Amy Reid", "title": "In 'Maid,' a single mother struggles to make it on minimum wage", "question_index": 3, "text": "And 90 days is the maximum you're allowed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wouldn't even really call it a shelter. I think they call it the cabins. It's, like, a line of six or seven kind of quaint-looking cabins. And they have two rooms with built-in twin beds and drawers"}
{"id": "1045995752", "date": "2021-10-15", "guest": "Amy Reid", "title": "In 'Maid,' a single mother struggles to make it on minimum wage", "question_index": 4, "text": "So what were the rules you had to follow when you were living there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yeah."}
{"id": "1045995752", "date": "2021-10-15", "guest": "Amy Reid", "title": "In 'Maid,' a single mother struggles to make it on minimum wage", "question_index": 5, "text": "So to support yourself, you cleaned houses for a living. You worked for an agency. I'm always interested in how the money works when you work for an agency, whether it's a health assistance agency or a housecleaning agency. So how much did your clients pay per hour, and what percentage of that did you get?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Gosh. There was, like, four pages of rules. But the ones that I remember the most was that they would check on our housecleaning and make sure that we were keeping the place clean. We were only allowe"}
{"id": "1045995752", "date": "2021-10-15", "guest": "Amy Reid", "title": "In 'Maid,' a single mother struggles to make it on minimum wage", "question_index": 6, "text": "And how much is minimum wage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it depended on how long they had been their client. The earlier ones, I think, were 20. And then the later ones, they raised it to about 25 an hour for me to be in their house. And I started o"}
{"id": "1045995752", "date": "2021-10-15", "guest": "Amy Reid", "title": "In 'Maid,' a single mother struggles to make it on minimum wage", "question_index": 7, "text": "How many hours a week did you work? I mean, how much take home did you have per week?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was like 8.55 or maybe 7.25 at that time in Washington state."}
{"id": "1045995752", "date": "2021-10-15", "guest": "Amy Reid", "title": "In 'Maid,' a single mother struggles to make it on minimum wage", "question_index": 8, "text": "Actually, you were injured. I mean, you have scoliosis. You've had it since childhood. And you had a pinched nerve while you were cleaning houses. Your - I forget - it's your right arm or your left arm, but the arm that you use the most was affected by the pinched nerve. And it was hard for you to use that arm when you were cleaning. And you couldn't afford a doctor.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It wasn't that much. I had to take into consideration that I paid for my gas for the travel between houses. And this was in, you know, kind of a rural area. And sometimes the travel time between house"}
{"id": "1045995752", "date": "2021-10-15", "guest": "Amy Reid", "title": "In 'Maid,' a single mother struggles to make it on minimum wage", "question_index": 9, "text": "So you were in pain a lot of the time while you were cleaning.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That is correct - couldn't afford, you know, massage therapy or a physical therapist or really sometimes even ibuprofen."}
{"id": "1045995752", "date": "2021-10-15", "guest": "Amy Reid", "title": "In 'Maid,' a single mother struggles to make it on minimum wage", "question_index": 10, "text": "So it seems like the worst part of cleaning houses - and this should come of no surprise - is cleaning the bathroom. I'm going to quote you here. You write, (reading) a bathroom could seem clean or pretty with pink toilet seats, rugs and towels to match, a shower curtain covered in roses. But that didn't mean the toilet wasn't horrific.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Back then, my back would get so stiff that it would wake me up at about 4 o'clock in the morning. And I couldn't really get back to sleep 'cause it hurt so bad."}
{"id": "1045995752", "date": "2021-10-15", "guest": "Amy Reid", "title": "In 'Maid,' a single mother struggles to make it on minimum wage", "question_index": 11, "text": "How would you brace yourself for the bathroom?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1045995752", "date": "2021-10-15", "guest": "Amy Reid", "title": "In 'Maid,' a single mother struggles to make it on minimum wage", "question_index": 12, "text": "You write that when you were cleaning houses, you became a witness. Did you feel like you got to know the people by seeing their homes, how clean or dirty they were, the possessions they had, the drugs, the prescription drugs that they used?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I should describe how we had to clean the toilet, too. We had to actually get down on our hands and knees and wipe all the way around the bowl, first of all. And we had to clean out the actual b"}
{"id": "1045995752", "date": "2021-10-15", "guest": "Amy Reid", "title": "In 'Maid,' a single mother struggles to make it on minimum wage", "question_index": 13, "text": "You named one house that you cleaned the Sad House. What made it sad?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, definitely. I mean, I knew them by the imprints they left in their bed. You know, like, I knew them by the ring of coffee from their coffee mug that was always in the same place. Or I knew them by"}
{"id": "1045995752", "date": "2021-10-15", "guest": "Amy Reid", "title": "In 'Maid,' a single mother struggles to make it on minimum wage", "question_index": 14, "text": "Did you ever meet him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a man who was older, and his wife had died. I'm not sure when or how, but, you know, I tried to make my guesses. But I think his older son had died, as well, and he had a son who was in the are"}
{"id": "1045995752", "date": "2021-10-15", "guest": "Amy Reid", "title": "In 'Maid,' a single mother struggles to make it on minimum wage", "question_index": 15, "text": "There's another house that you called the Porn House. And what interested me about this - you labeled it the Porn House in part because there was a lot of pornography around. But there were also a lot of romance novels around, and it led you to speculate about what this couple's lives were like. So speculate for us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did run into him once, like, completely accidentally. He usually left, like, right before I got there, which was around noon, I think, and, you know, would drive off to go somewhere and then come ba"}
{"id": "1045995752", "date": "2021-10-15", "guest": "Amy Reid", "title": "In 'Maid,' a single mother struggles to make it on minimum wage", "question_index": 16, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here for our listeners just tuning in. My guest is Stephanie Land. And she's the author of a new memoir called \"Maid.\" And it's about being poor and surviving by working cleaning houses. Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Well, they had - it was a pretty small house with, like, a big garage. But it overlook the ocean, so, you know, I can imagine it was expensive property. But that was the house that I was mentioning "}
{"id": "1045995752", "date": "2021-10-15", "guest": "Amy Reid", "title": "In 'Maid,' a single mother struggles to make it on minimum wage", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Stephanie Land. And her new memoir, \"Maid,\" is about the years that she lived in a homeless shelter or in subsidized housing and cleaned houses for a living while being a single mother, raising a young daughter and then finally being able to get scholarships to go to college, which was always her intention, and study writing. And now she has this new book. So while you were raising your daughter, Mia, and cleaning houses for a living and trying to get enough money to pay for your housing, you had various forms of government assistance. What types of assistance did you have?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Well, they had - it was a pretty small house with, like, a big garage. But it overlook the ocean, so, you know, I can imagine it was expensive property. But that was the house that I was mentioning "}
{"id": "1045995752", "date": "2021-10-15", "guest": "Amy Reid", "title": "In 'Maid,' a single mother struggles to make it on minimum wage", "question_index": 18, "text": "So I'm going to ask you the question that a lot of people ask when it comes to these government assistance programs. Why are my tax dollars - why were my tax dollars supporting you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think at one point, I had about seven all at once if you think about it. There's the SNAP program, which is food stamps. I had housing assistance. I had a Pell Grant for college. That helped with my"}
{"id": "1045995752", "date": "2021-10-15", "guest": "Amy Reid", "title": "In 'Maid,' a single mother struggles to make it on minimum wage", "question_index": 19, "text": "I was interested in reading about some of the restrictions on the money that you were getting. Like, with WIC, which stands for women, infants and children, you wanted to use some of that money. Well, what are the restrictions on that money? What are the - what is it supposed to be for? And what are the restrictions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. I - you know, it's only, I think, 9 cents out of the dollar that goes to support safety net programs. It's really not that much. And they're supporting people because they need to survive. I "}
{"id": "1045995752", "date": "2021-10-15", "guest": "Amy Reid", "title": "In 'Maid,' a single mother struggles to make it on minimum wage", "question_index": 20, "text": "Well, you also found that there were disincentives to make more money because if you made more money, then you'd lose benefits. Would you describe that conundrum?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So WIC checks used to be pretty large paper checks, and you would get three months' worth printed out at a time. You had to go to an appointment to get those. And you had to have your height and weigh"}
{"id": "1045995752", "date": "2021-10-15", "guest": "Amy Reid", "title": "In 'Maid,' a single mother struggles to make it on minimum wage", "question_index": 21, "text": "Well, say there's a month when you got extra hours of work because you freelanced some work in addition to working with the agency, and that made you ineligible for some of the government assistance you were getting. Would you then - if the next month, you didn't make that much money, would you have to start the application process all over again?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So there's a thing called a welfare cliff. And what happens is you get up to a threshold which is a very firm line. And if you jump over it, then you lose all of your benefits. So if - there was"}
{"id": "1045995752", "date": "2021-10-15", "guest": "Amy Reid", "title": "In 'Maid,' a single mother struggles to make it on minimum wage", "question_index": 22, "text": "So I want to talk a little bit about your relationship with your daughter, Mia's, father. When you got pregnant - and it was an unplanned pregnancy. You weren't married. He didn't want you to have the baby. And he didn't want to have to, like, be bothered with it, take care of it, pay for any of the money that it would take to raise the baby. And you were conflicted about being pregnant. You were hoping to go to college and become a writer. And now you knew that was going to be more difficult, and you had to change paths because you were pregnant if you decided to keep the baby. And you decided to keep the baby. Can you tell us what went through your mind when you were trying to decide whether to terminate the pregnancy or, you know, carry to term and become a mother?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. Let's get back to Terry's 2019 interview with Stephanie Land, author of the memoir \"Maid,\" which has been adapted into a new Netflix miniseries."}
{"id": "1045995752", "date": "2021-10-15", "guest": "Amy Reid", "title": "In 'Maid,' a single mother struggles to make it on minimum wage", "question_index": 23, "text": "So before that, he had become abusive. And you write, most of his rage had been invisible. But then, after one of his rages, he put his fist through the window on the door. And at that point, you called the police.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, some backstory to that was that my mom had told me that she was very close to aborting me. She said she sat in the parking lot and just couldn't go through with it. And she told me that when I w"}
{"id": "1045995752", "date": "2021-10-15", "guest": "Amy Reid", "title": "In 'Maid,' a single mother struggles to make it on minimum wage", "question_index": 24, "text": "How do you calculate whether you should call the police or not? It's a big step. It's also, like, a public display. Like, people will see the police are coming. Then charges might be leveled. And I think it's probably really hard to decide whether - you know, in a lot of circumstances, whether to take that step or not. So how did you decide to take that step?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. I think..."}
{"id": "1045995752", "date": "2021-10-15", "guest": "Amy Reid", "title": "In 'Maid,' a single mother struggles to make it on minimum wage", "question_index": 25, "text": "So what was the result of that? Did you press charges? Did the police do anything outside of issue the report?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he had been kind of building up to being violent. But he would punch the couch right next to my head. And I was scared. And so when he did that, it was - we were arguing, and then he immediately"}
{"id": "1045995752", "date": "2021-10-15", "guest": "Amy Reid", "title": "In 'Maid,' a single mother struggles to make it on minimum wage", "question_index": 26, "text": "I'm a little confused. Because if the court said that he wasn't allowed to have contact with her, how was she able to spend time with him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was actually kind of awful. So they put a no-contact order in place that covered me and my daughter, which was unusual and, looking back, I think kind of extreme. Because the no-contact order was, "}
{"id": "1045995752", "date": "2021-10-15", "guest": "Amy Reid", "title": "In 'Maid,' a single mother struggles to make it on minimum wage", "question_index": 27, "text": "How did you feel about Mia spending time with her father, knowing that he was abusive? Were you worried that he'd become emotionally or physically abusive with her or that he would just, you know, go into a rage and that she would learn from those rages and accept that as a model of how to behave?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I went to the judge twice and - with the help of a pro-bono lawyer and a domestic violence advocate and a safety plan that I had made and asked for them to remove Mia from the no-contact order."}
{"id": "1045995752", "date": "2021-10-15", "guest": "Amy Reid", "title": "In 'Maid,' a single mother struggles to make it on minimum wage", "question_index": 28, "text": "You not only were a client at a domestic violence center, but you eventually volunteered there. And I'm wondering if it started to seem like all men were abusers or all women were, you know, victims of, you know, emotional or physical abuse because you were so surrounded by it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, this all started when she was months old, like 9 or 10 months old, I think. And so at that time, I was incredibly worried but also felt very guilty that I had called the police because I"}
{"id": "1045995752", "date": "2021-10-15", "guest": "Amy Reid", "title": "In 'Maid,' a single mother struggles to make it on minimum wage", "question_index": 29, "text": "Let's take a short break, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Stephanie Land. And she writes about issues relating to the poor and the working poor and working single mothers. And now she has a new memoir called \"Maid.\" And it's about being a maid, like, having her job be cleaning other people's houses. It's also about the period when she lived in a homeless shelter and in government-assisted housing and was on food stamps and WIC. We're going to take a short break, and then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm not sure. I didn't see too many clients. But my advocate, especially at the place that I volunteered at, was very worn out and very burnt out. And she said that she would have clients who she woul"}
{"id": "1045995752", "date": "2021-10-15", "guest": "Amy Reid", "title": "In 'Maid,' a single mother struggles to make it on minimum wage", "question_index": 30, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Stephanie Land, author of the new memoir \"Maid,\" about her experiences working cleaning houses as a single mother, trying and failing to make ends meet. For a while, you had a studio apartment with your daughter that had a lot of black mold. And no matter how much you cleaned it, you couldn't really get rid of it. Was that a government-assisted housing place?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm not sure. I didn't see too many clients. But my advocate, especially at the place that I volunteered at, was very worn out and very burnt out. And she said that she would have clients who she woul"}
{"id": "1045995752", "date": "2021-10-15", "guest": "Amy Reid", "title": "In 'Maid,' a single mother struggles to make it on minimum wage", "question_index": 31, "text": "So because you were living with black mold, you and your daughter had a lot of health problems.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No. That was a studio that I found on my own. And the landlord allowed me to pay off the deposit. I think I paid him a hundred bucks a month, maybe for five months to make up the deposit. But the "}
{"id": "1045995752", "date": "2021-10-15", "guest": "Amy Reid", "title": "In 'Maid,' a single mother struggles to make it on minimum wage", "question_index": 32, "text": "So did all that clear up after you moved?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We did. Yeah. Mia was very sick as a child. She had constant sinus infections, pink eye, ear infections. She would come home sometimes and - with me, of course. But we would walk in. And I'd look over"}
{"id": "1045995752", "date": "2021-10-15", "guest": "Amy Reid", "title": "In 'Maid,' a single mother struggles to make it on minimum wage", "question_index": 33, "text": "So it was another problem you faced being poor - is that the place you could afford to live in was also making you sick, and your daughter as well.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It did, actually. Yeah. Mia hardly ever gets sick now. And I maybe get sick, like, once a year. So the drier climate helped us out a lot."}
{"id": "1045995752", "date": "2021-10-15", "guest": "Amy Reid", "title": "In 'Maid,' a single mother struggles to make it on minimum wage", "question_index": 34, "text": "So at some point, you decided your only way out of this kind of dead-end life that you were in of poverty and of housecleaning for a living, the only way out of it was to take out loans and go back to school and try to become a writer, which is what you did. You even were able at the beginning to get a scholarship for women who had been abused. So did you start at community college?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And as a parent, you know, you want to provide safe, healthy environments for your children. And I had a doctor who I was taking Mia to to be seen for yet another infection. She told me, you nee"}
{"id": "1045995752", "date": "2021-10-15", "guest": "Amy Reid", "title": "In 'Maid,' a single mother struggles to make it on minimum wage", "question_index": 35, "text": "Where you went to the university there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. Yeah. I started at the community college in Skagit Valley and originally was just going to get my AA transfer degree. And then I decided to do the program because I felt like I needed a job tha"}
{"id": "1045995752", "date": "2021-10-15", "guest": "Amy Reid", "title": "In 'Maid,' a single mother struggles to make it on minimum wage", "question_index": 36, "text": "So where are you now financially? Like, what kind of housing do you have? Tell us about your housing and your level of financial security.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I moved to Missoula and started going to University of Montana, which was my original plan, like, right before I found out that I was pregnant with Mia. But this was six years later. It took a l"}
{"id": "1045995752", "date": "2021-10-15", "guest": "Amy Reid", "title": "In 'Maid,' a single mother struggles to make it on minimum wage", "question_index": 37, "text": "This is college loans?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Financially, I mean, I'm still wildly in debt. So, you know, and I..."}
{"id": "1045995752", "date": "2021-10-15", "guest": "Amy Reid", "title": "In 'Maid,' a single mother struggles to make it on minimum wage", "question_index": 38, "text": "If you can make one change in how the government deals with people who are poor, including the working poor, what would that change be?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I still have, you know, $50,000 in student loans that I need to pay off. And so there's that. I don't own the home that I'm living in. I'm renting, coincidentally, from my ex-mother-in-law. And s"}
{"id": "1045995752", "date": "2021-10-15", "guest": "Amy Reid", "title": "In 'Maid,' a single mother struggles to make it on minimum wage", "question_index": 39, "text": "Well, Stephanie Land, good luck to you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would definitely say to not require work in order to get food. I think that's inhumane. And the amount of money that you're getting is so small. I mean, it's like a dollar or something a meal per pe"}
{"id": "1045995752", "date": "2021-10-15", "guest": "Amy Reid", "title": "In 'Maid,' a single mother struggles to make it on minimum wage", "question_index": 40, "text": "And thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Cynthia Erivo, is a great singer and actress. In 2016, after coming to the U.S. from England, she won a Tony and Drama Desk Award for her starring role in the Broadway revival of the musical \"The Color Purple.\" For her starring role as Harriet Tubman in the film \"Harriet,\" she was nominated for an Oscar and was also nominated for the closing credits song \"Stand Up,\" which she co-wrote and sang. The song won an award from the Society of Composers and Lyricists. Erivo played Aretha Franklin in this year's TV miniseries \"Genius: Aretha,\" which you can still watch on Hulu. She didn't get to sing in the HBO series \"The Outsider,\" adapted from a Stephen King novel, but she was great in that, too. Now she sings in the character of herself on her debut album, \"Ch. 1 Vs. 1,\" featuring songs she co-wrote. This song from the album is called \"Hero.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 1, "text": "That's Cynthia Erivo from her new album. She's also written a new children's book called \"Remember To Dream, Ebere.\" Erivo grew up in South London, where her parents emigrated from Nigeria. I wanted to know what it was like to play Aretha and to try to sing like her. Before we hear what she had to say, let's hear Erivo sing in a scene from the miniseries \"Genius: Aretha.\" This is set during her first recording session for Atlantic Records in 1967. Aretha is at the piano singing \"I Never Loved A Man.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Living in a time where the brave feel helpless and the strong, strong are weak. They don't see, they don't see a way out of the darkness. So they fall, fall to their knees. See; I want to be"}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 2, "text": "That's Cynthia Erivo from the miniseries \"Genius: Aretha.\" Cynthia Erivo, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Aretha Franklin, singing) You're a no-good heartbreaker. You're a liar, and you're a cheat. I don't know why I let you do these things to me. My friends keep telling me that you ain't no good. Oh,"}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 3, "text": "It is such a pleasure to have you on the show. How did you start listening to Aretha Franklin?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you."}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Did you try to emulate her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I was a kid and we - so there's this radio station in the U.K. called Magic FM. And it plays everything - everything from, let's say - I don't know if you know a band called Mike and the Mechanic"}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Did you listen to her differently when you were playing her than you did just as, like, a listener?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think I tried to emulate her. I just wanted to listen to everything she had. And I started learning her music pretty, pretty early. Yeah."}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 6, "text": "What was the difference?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 7, "text": "I know you've said that when you were listening to Aretha before playing her that one of the things you were listening for is, where did she breathe?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When you listen to her as a whole, you sort of hear everything at once. So it's like a full picture. It's like looking at a picture from afar. When you're listening to a piece of music by anyone and y"}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Why was that important?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Can you sing us an example of what you mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because the breath, I think, tells you everything about what the person is trying to say. You know, when you - if you look at a sentence, where the comma goes tells you what the sentence means. If I s"}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 10, "text": "You get the impression that it's more far away", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I use this song often to explain it because it's - one, it's a beautiful song. And two, I had to really, really dig in and learn it. And three, it just is a wonderful example of how the breathwork cha"}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I use this song often to explain it because it's - one, it's a beautiful song. And two, I had to really, really dig in and learn it. And three, it just is a wonderful example of how the breathwork cha"}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 12, "text": "...The way you sang it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 13, "text": "Yeah. But it - I'll tell you, it was beautiful both ways.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 14, "text": "You met her twice backstage at \"The Color Purple\" and at the Kennedy Center. Did you feel like you were able to have a meaningful conversation with her? I think sometimes, like, when you meet somebody who's so important to you, you just don't know what to say.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She just has this way with music. The way she manipulates it and uses it to tell the story is really special. And it's that sort of making you wait for the explanation 'cause when - it's a difference "}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Did she sing it like you? Or did she sing it like her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And I just - I didn't know what to do. I think I just laughed. I was just like, oh, my God. Hi."}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 16, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think she sang it like her singing it like me."}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 17, "text": "She was brought up in the church, and she was brought up singing gospel in the church on tours through the South and in her father's church. And so when she started singing R&B, it was so church-influenced. And I'm wondering about if you grew up churched at all in England and, if so, what the music was.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know what I mean? So she had memorized how I had sung it - like the phrasing - and sang that sentence. But she sounds like her. And I just - I remember thinking, I'm never going to forget this bec"}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 18, "text": "Was the objection to the gospel music the lyrics of the song or the style of singing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We did - I did grow up in church but different 'cause I'm - Roman Catholic is what I was raised on. And then - but I was a bit of a rebel. So when I was in church, it was a lot of, like, Christian hym"}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 19, "text": "Was this a predominantly white congregation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's the style of singing. I think the style of singing was the - was where the objection came. There's a particularly straight-laced way of praising that's correct for the Catholic Church. Th"}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 20, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Cynthia Erivo. She has a new album called \"Ch. 1 Vs. 1\" and a new children's book called \"Remember To Dream, Ebere.\" We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very much so. Yes. Yeah."}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Cynthia Erivo. She starred in the Broadway revival of \"The Color Purple,\" played Harriet Tubman in the film \"Harriet,\" played Aretha Franklin in the TV miniseries \"Genius: Aretha\" - which is streaming on Hulu - and was one of the stars of the HBO series \"The Outsider.\" She has a new album called \"Ch. 1 Vs. 1\" and a new children's book called \"Remember To Dream, Ebere.\" Your mother who raised you came from Nigeria. What were her dreams?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very much so. Yes. Yeah."}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Was it reassuring to you to have a mother who knew what to do if something went wrong?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She surpassed a lot of her dreams. Her dream was to be a nurse. So she got that, and then had to change it. I watched her sort of go, OK, I got my nursing degree. Now, what else do I want? I think she"}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 23, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my gosh, yeah. Yeah. She's cool. It's really fun."}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Your parents separated, I think, when you were pretty young. And by the time you were 16, your father told you and your sister that he was done.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I realize that she's, like, the child whisperer. It's really fun watching her with other people's children because they don't really know how it's done. And I don't know how it's done. I feel like I'v"}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Oh, it was just you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah, he told me. He told..."}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 26, "text": "What was your reaction? Could you see that coming?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Just me. He told me that he was out of our lives. And I sort of had to relay the message to everyone. Yeah."}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 27, "text": "Did he give you an explanation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't see it coming. Although, I - in hindsight, I probably should have seen it coming. But I didn't see it coming because, you know, what 16-year-old would? At the time, I was heartbroken because "}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 28, "text": "And did you think that there was something about you that made him leave? Or did you think, like, he's being mean and thoughtless in doing this and that's on him, not on me?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Not really. No. No. I think he just had - I think he was finished being a dad."}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 29, "text": "Have you spoken to him since?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. I don't know if I was thinking about that. I never really compartmentalized it. I just saw someone doing something that hurt me. And I think it was just sort of as simple as that, like, "}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 30, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 31, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Cynthia Erivo. And she has a new album called \"Ch. 1 Vs. 1\" and a new children's book called \"Remember To Dream, Ebere.\" We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually - tell a lie. I bumped into him randomly at a cousin's wedding. We had an awkward sort of hello. And that was - that's it - when I was 25."}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 32, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Cynthia Erivo. She won a Tony for her starring role in the Broadway revival of \"The Color Purple.\" She was nominated for an Oscar for her performance as Harriet Tubman in the film \"Harriet\" and was also nominated for the closing song \"Stand Up,\" which she co-wrote and sang. She was one of the stars of the HBO adaptation of the Stephen King novel \"The Outsider.\" She just released her debut album, \"Ch. 1 Vs. 1,\" and she's written a new children's book called \"Remember To Dream, Ebere.\" Oh, and I didn't mention that she played Aretha Franklin in the TV miniseries \"Genius: Aretha,\" which is streaming on Hulu. You went to RADA, which is the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts in England - very famous school. You didn't know it existed when you were invited to apply for it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Staring to see a picture of me, but it's too hard to look in my eyes. I know I'm ashamed I might find what I left behind, what I worked for so long to hide. But in the end, I know what's inc"}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 33, "text": "Was it revelatory once you got there to study acting in such a formal and probably traditional way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did not. I did not."}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 34, "text": "You know, when you were talking about Aretha, you talked about the importance of where you breathe and how it can even change the meaning of a phrase. So when you were learning Sondheim songs - I think breath is really - especially important in those songs in terms of the meaning but, in some of the songs, just in terms of having an opportunity to breathe", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I just - because I didn't know that that was even a possibility when I was going through primary school or secondary school. No one was like, well, we can go to drama school. No one gave me that"}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 35, "text": "'cause some of the songs, there isn't a lot of opportunity. And those songs are really rangy, you know? So your breath support would be really important. Is there a song you especially loved when you started singing Sondheim?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I just - because I didn't know that that was even a possibility when I was going through primary school or secondary school. No one was like, well, we can go to drama school. No one gave me that"}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 36, "text": "I have. I've seen you sing it on YouTube. So if anybody wants to see it, it's there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I loved \"Being Alive.\" And I loved \"The Miller's Son.\" Have you ever heard \"The Miller's Son\"?"}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 37, "text": "Can you give us an example of what you mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's one of my favorite songs. I just - that is one of those songs where you're like, if you don't breathe in the right place, you won't make it to the end of the sentence."}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 38, "text": "Yeah, thank you. Did you - how did you figure out where to breathe? Did you get advice on that? Did it seem natural?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God. I don't even know if I can remember the lyrics. I haven't done it for such a long time. Is it - (singing) it's a wink and a wiggle and a giggle in the grass. And I'll trip the light fandan"}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 39, "text": "And were you comfortable singing in an operatic style? Or did it not matter which style you sang in as long as you did the singing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I got advice. I had a really lovely teacher at RADA. It was Philip (ph). He was just - he was wonderful, actually. I will say that. My singing teacher at RADA - we're all sort of assigned a singing te"}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 40, "text": "Can you give us an example of how you learned to open up your voice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was comfortable. Classical music was sort of a love of mine, and then when I went to drama school, my voice was already sort of ready to try that. And it's the same - whilst I was doing \"The Color P"}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 41, "text": "Oh, so beautiful. Now, what about that opened your voice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'll do one of the first things I did at secondary school, actually, because we'd always do sort of, like, the end-of-year, like, choral show. And this one year, we decided to do \"Rutter Requiem,\" the"}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 42, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Cynthia Erivo. She has a new album of songs that she co-wrote, which is called \"Ch. 1 Vs. 1,\" and a new children's book called \"Remember To Dream, Ebere.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess there's a couple of things that are happening. Your breath is different. The way you place - the way you use your tongue is different. The tongue placement is different in your mouth. It's alm"}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 43, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Cynthia Erivo. She starred in the Broadway revival of \"The Color Purple,\" played Harriet Tubman in the film \"Harriet,\" played Aretha Franklin in the TV miniseries \"Genius: Aretha,\" which is streaming on Hulu. She has a new album called \"Ch. 1 Vs. 1\" and a new children's book called \"Remember To Dream, Ebere.\" I want to play another song from your new album. And this is called \"The Good.\" Do you want to say something about what you were thinking about when you wrote it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess there's a couple of things that are happening. Your breath is different. The way you place - the way you use your tongue is different. The tongue placement is different in your mouth. It's alm"}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 44, "text": "Don't need to apologize.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So when I wrote it, I - we had gotten to a point where I knew that we needed an up-tempo song. We needed something with, like - that felt upbeat and that felt fun. But I love writing ballads. I "}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 45, "text": "Well, let's hear the song. This is \"The Good\" from Cynthia Erivo's new album, \"Ch. 1 Vs 1.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's what I do. And I'm - like, I enjoy them. I enjoy singing because of the space in them. But then - and so as we started writing, I thought, well, what can you make this about? And my friend, who"}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 46, "text": "That's Cynthia Erivo from her new album, \"Ch. 1 Vs 1.\" So this is kind of a personal question in terms of that it has personal meaning for me", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Gone is the way we used to smile, my dear. Hope doesn't spring from anywhere. Watching the world forget to breathe, wish we could stop and feel the breeze. But I know there's no point in wai"}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 47, "text": ". So you're 5-foot-1. Harriet Tubman, who you portrayed, was even shorter. And I'm not quite 5 feet. So as a short person", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Gone is the way we used to smile, my dear. Hope doesn't spring from anywhere. Watching the world forget to breathe, wish we could stop and feel the breeze. But I know there's no point in wai"}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 48, "text": ", I'm wondering if you think it's had much of an impact on your life or your career to be short?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Gone is the way we used to smile, my dear. Hope doesn't spring from anywhere. Watching the world forget to breathe, wish we could stop and feel the breeze. But I know there's no point in wai"}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 49, "text": "I did not realize it. I was reading about you, and I was like, really", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know because I never I mean, the thing is a lot of people don't realize I am as short as I am until they meet me."}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 50, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know because I never I mean, the thing is a lot of people don't realize I am as short as I am until they meet me."}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 51, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I spend a lot of my time in heels. But, like, often when I'm with other people, they're also, like, dressed up or in their heels. And so when I'm standing there, and then they're like, oh my g"}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 52, "text": "What about chairs? Do you find it's hard to find a chair that fits?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...What anyone else is saying is just the same."}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 53, "text": "Well, you know, chairs are, like, too deep and often too high.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, like, chairs that are high enough to get to tables and stuff."}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 54, "text": "So your legs are - Right. Exactly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And so your legs are swinging off the ground. Yeah."}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 55, "text": "Podiums.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's a thing. So you end up having to, like, perch to the - at the edge of the seat so your feet can touch the ground. Or..."}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 56, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Podiums are hilarious because sometimes you're also like, you know what? Today I'm just going to swallow my pride and ask them for a little step so I can reach the podium and feel like I'm a normal he"}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 57, "text": "If the stool is too high, you have to kind of shimmy onto it...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 58, "text": "...Because you can't reach that height. Your behind doesn't reach that high.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Shimmy onto it, yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 59, "text": "And then slide down.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because I'm, like, making little jumps to get there. It's like..."}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 60, "text": "Cynthia Erivo, it's been so delightful to talk with you. Thank you so much for doing this. And just thank you for your work.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Doing a vault jump. Oh, my goodness."}
{"id": "1046988153", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Genius' actor Cynthia Erivo opens up her voice on 'Ch. 1 Vs. 1'", "question_index": 61, "text": "Cynthia Erivo's new album is called \"Ch. 1 Vs. 1.\" Her new children's book is called \"Remember To Dream, Ebere.\" After we take a short break, we'll listen back to an excerpt of my 1995 interview with Colin Powell. He died today of complications of COVID-19. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you. Thank you so much. This has been so much fun. You are wonderful, so thank you."}
{"id": "1047023161", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Colin Powell", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Colin Powell, former secretary of state", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're going to listen back to an excerpt of the interview I recorded with Colin Powell. He died today of complications of COVID-19. He was fully vaccinated. Powell was the first African American national security adviser, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and secretary of state. During his military career, he served two tours of duty in Vietnam and served in Korea and Germany. During the Carter administration, Powell worked in the Pentagon. In the Reagan administration, he was top military aid to Secretary of Defense Caspar Weinberger and then became national security adviser. He was President George H.W. Bush's chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. As Eric Schmidt wrote in Powell's New York Times obituary, as chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Powell was the architect of the Persian Gulf War in 1991, which ousted Saddam Hussein from Kuwait but left him in power in Iraq. Years later, in 2003, while serving as President George H.W. Bush's secretary of state, he was the odd man out, fighting internally with then-Vice President Dick Cheney and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. In Powell's 2003 speech at the U.N., he helped pave the way for the U.S. to go to war in Iraq. He came to regret that speech. Today he was praised by politicians in the Republican and Democratic parties. I spoke with Powell in 1995 after the publication of his memoir. It was two years after he'd retired from the military. At your retirement ceremony, you said, the Army has been my home. The Army has been my life. I am what I am because the Army takes care of its own. And in your memoir, you say that you found a home first in ROTC. What appealed to you about ROTC?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1047023161", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Colin Powell", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Colin Powell, former secretary of state", "question_index": 1, "text": "In your memoir, you write, a certain ambivalence has always existed among African Americans about military service. Why should we fight for a country that for so long did not fight for us, that, in fact, denied us our fundamental rights? Did you ever feel that ambivalence yourself? And you served through the '60s and the civil rights movement.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I entered the City College of New York, I was just short of my 17th birthday, just barely a kid. And I really had no goal in life at that point. I was just a street kid. And after bouncing around"}
{"id": "1047023161", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Colin Powell", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Colin Powell, former secretary of state", "question_index": 2, "text": "Your first tour of Vietnam was late '62 and then through '63. And while you were in Vietnam that year, your wife was living in the city of her birth, Birmingham.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I never felt that ambivalence. I'm the heir of a proud legacy of Black soldiers who went before me, the buffalo soldiers of the post-Civil War period, the Tuskegee Airmen. And what was put into me"}
{"id": "1047023161", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Colin Powell", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Colin Powell, former secretary of state", "question_index": 3, "text": "That was during a period of church bombings and when authorities were using fire hoses and police dogs to try to stop the civil rights movement. You write your father-in-law sat with a shotgun on his lap to protect his home and his family. Did you ever wish that you were fighting - that you were able to fight in the civil rights movement at home instead of having to fight in a war abroad that you became - a war you became increasingly disillusioned with as the years went on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep."}
{"id": "1047023161", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Colin Powell", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Colin Powell, former secretary of state", "question_index": 4, "text": "How did the civil rights movement, which was challenging the establishment - the white establishment in the United States, affect challenges to authority in the military when you were there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Much of what was happening in Birmingham and in the South during that period never penetrated into the jungles of Vietnam. There were no newspapers. There were no news broadcasts. You would get "}
{"id": "1047023161", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Colin Powell", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Colin Powell, former secretary of state", "question_index": 5, "text": "At what point did you start to become skeptical of the war in Vietnam?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We did everything we could to give all of our youngsters a sense of being equal, a sense of being family. And as a result of our commitment during that period, we came out of the mid-'70s as the most "}
{"id": "1047023161", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Colin Powell", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Colin Powell, former secretary of state", "question_index": 6, "text": "You were described in the New Republic as the prototype of the political general, determined never to let themselves be drawn again into a politician's war, placing new emphasis on learning the rules of the game in Washington and playing it well. Do you agree with that description?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I first went over, arriving in Vietnam on Christmas Day of 1962 as an adviser, I was all charged up, a young 25-year-old captain there to stop communism, not truly understanding the roots of the "}
{"id": "1047023161", "date": "2021-10-18", "guest": "Colin Powell", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Colin Powell, former secretary of state", "question_index": 7, "text": "That was an excerpt of my interview with Colin Powell, recorded in 1995 after the publication of his memoir. He died today. He was 84. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, my guest will be Billy Porter. He starred in the musical \"Kinky Boots\" and the FX series \"Pose.\" His new memoir is about growing up Black and gay in a church community that insisted he was damned and with a stepfather who sexually abused him. His singing voice was his salvation, but it was still hard to fit in on Broadway and in the music industry. I hope you'll join us. Our senior producer today is Roberta Shorrock. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Therese Madden directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I've been characterized by many things - not quite sure if a political general is a condemnation. It certainly isn't intended as a compliment. All I've tried to do over the years is to serve whe"}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today, we're going to remember author Gary Paulsen. He wrote about 200 books and sold about 35 million copies. The National Book Foundation described him as one of the most honored writers of contemporary literature for young people. Paulsen died last week of cardiac arrest at the age of 82. In his New York Times obituary, Paulsen's main theme was described as mankind's violent collision with nature, often in situations in which a character - typically a teenage boy - has to learn to fend for himself in the wild. Paulsen's own life was filled with adventure and adversity. He worked as a teacher, soldier, actor, trapper and migrant farm worker. For a few years, he was addicted to alcohol and for a while lived in incredible poverty. He published his first book in 1966, and nearly 20 years later, started winning major awards. He won Newberry honors for his books \"Dogsong,\" \"Hatchet\" and \"The Winter Room.\" Earlier this year, he published a memoir. One of the things he talked about on FRESH AIR was running the Iditarod - the 1,000-mile dog sled race across Alaska, which he did three times. We're going to hear two interviews with him today, starting with my 1992 interview, which we recorded after the publication of his book \"Clabbered Dirt, Sweet Grass,\" which is about life on a small farm.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 1, "text": "And that was good for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I was young, living at home wasn't really fun for me because of the drinking. And except for a stint in the Philippines, most of my life was spent in northern Minnesota when I was young. And I wo"}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 2, "text": "I'd like you to read something from a recent novel for young adults called \"The Cookcamp.\" And there's a prologue in this that I think relates to your own life. Let me ask you to read it, and then we'll talk about how autobiographical it is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was. I didn't - it's kind of an interesting dichotomy here. I didn't - it was just stultifying work. I mean, they work until they drop - you know, those people did. It was just - and they h"}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 3, "text": "How close was that to your story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) At first, his mother hired a babysitter and kept him in an apartment. But the babysitter was a crazy woman who sat and drank red wine and listen and talked to the radio soap operas all day a"}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 4, "text": "So your father, I believe, worked for patent during the war.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's exact, absolutely exact."}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 5, "text": "So your father was away during the war...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he was on patent staff. He was an officer on patent staff."}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 6, "text": "...At the war?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't..."}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 7, "text": "And your mother went to work at a munitions plant in Chicago?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I didn't really meet him to know him until I was seven years old. I was born in '39, and that's when the - when it all started, really. And he was, from that time on, involved in wars as a milit"}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 8, "text": "And you think she left because she was bored?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, she went to work in Chicago and then later in Minneapolis, too."}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 9, "text": "You know, in the section that you just read, the mother sends the son off on the train with a little note pinned to his lapel for the Pullman porter to read. Did you have a note pinned to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I remember the name. And she would drink beer and dance with different men and one thing and another. And I would stand on bar stools and sing, mairzy doats and dozy doats and liddle lamzy divey. An"}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 10, "text": "So was your grandmother a cook for a road crew?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I did, all the way from Chicago. I mean, you couldn't do that now. But then you could. And she put me on a train in Chicago and told the conductors and the Pullman porters to take care of me, an"}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 11, "text": "She must have been a pretty tough lady.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was. She was just - at that time, she was a widow. She remained a widow, I mean, from then on. But at that time, she was, I suppose, in her 50s - yeah, in her 50s. And she had already become, in h"}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, God, she was wonderful. She was just incredible. I took my son back to her. In fact, I think that's in \"The Cookcamp,\" too. My son, who is now 23 - I took him back, and she stole him completely in"}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well, living this kind of active life of living in other people's - living on other people's farms and living with different relatives, did you read?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She thought I ought to be a farmer. She wanted me to do something honorable. And she wasn't too sure about writing them books."}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Your parents.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't. I was a poor student. At first, I flunked the ninth grade, pretty much. I had to take it over and probably graduated from high school with, like, a D-minus. I mean, I was a really miserable "}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 15, "text": "What kind of books would you read?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And I would go down to this basement and hide from them. And around back of the furnace, there was an old easy chair with wires sticking up through the springs and a single light hanging from th"}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "At first, I think it was Westerns and adventure stories and different things. But this librarian, she'd slip in a Melville every once in a while and, you know..."}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 17, "text": "From what you've said, what disturbed you most about your parents and what was most upsetting as a child was your parents drinking?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Or Moby Dick 'cause it was really great because I think everything that has happened to me - and I've been very lucky - everything - and I'm extremely grateful. I'm not at all arrogant about my succes"}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 18, "text": "But you became a drinker yourself.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 19, "text": "When did the writing start?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I started when I was - in fact, I fought it for a long time. And I was - you know, I just hated it. I swore that I'd never drink. And I got to be about 26, and I hit it just like a baby with a b"}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 20, "text": "Now, I know you went through a period of several years when you were very, very poor, living in the woods.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It started about the time I started to drink, oddly enough. And I published a couple of books right away. And then the drinking kind of took over, and I didn't write much for about five years, four ye"}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Wow. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "About 17 of them, yeah."}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Did that period overlap with the drinking, or was this after?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And I wound up running the Iditarod twice - went up and ran that thing. And all of that seemed to just be part of that set piece of life - about a 10-year period."}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Now, why did you go broke? Was it because you were just trying to write full time...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it was way after the drinking. I'd been sober 10 years when - and working kind of construction, different things for 10 years. And then we wound up in Minnesota. And that's where real poverty set "}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 24, "text": "...And you weren't selling much?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I couldn't..."}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 25, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I couldn't sell much. And after a while, I just realized that I would have trouble working. I would, you know, be a roofer or a truck driver or a construction - all those were fine. But when you come "}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 26, "text": "And that was changed when your books started to sell?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I make really good cheese. And we hunted. I hunted. And we grew some of our own meat - hogs and beef and stuff. But we lived without money. We farmed, actually, is what we did. We had a small farm. We"}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 27, "text": "We're listening back to the interview I recorded in 1992 with writer Gary Paulsen. He died last week at age 82. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, as a matter of fact, it was a strange thing. I ran the Iditarod in '83. And something happened in the Iditarod that made me think of a book called \"Dogsong.\" It was - an Eskimo boy asked me to t"}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 28, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 1992 interview with author Gary Paulsen. He died last week at age 82. He was best known for his young adult novels about adventure and survival. He had plenty of adventures himself, including running the Iditarod, the thousand-mile dog sled race across Alaska. When we spoke, he was working on his memoir \"Winterdance: The Fine Madness Of Running The Iditarod.\" It was published two years later.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, as a matter of fact, it was a strange thing. I ran the Iditarod in '83. And something happened in the Iditarod that made me think of a book called \"Dogsong.\" It was - an Eskimo boy asked me to t"}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 29, "text": "You can explain to me, a non-adventurer", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, as a matter of fact, it was a strange thing. I ran the Iditarod in '83. And something happened in the Iditarod that made me think of a book called \"Dogsong.\" It was - an Eskimo boy asked me to t"}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 30, "text": ", what is so thrilling about the Iditarod?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, as a matter of fact, it was a strange thing. I ran the Iditarod in '83. And something happened in the Iditarod that made me think of a book called \"Dogsong.\" It was - an Eskimo boy asked me to t"}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 31, "text": "Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's insane to do it. I'm working on a book about it now. And it's like writing about madness. My wife says you got to kind of crank your IQ down to about 13."}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 32, "text": "What does that mean? What kind of state is this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I think - there's also a cliche that says no marriage survives three Iditarods. And it's maybe not accurate in my case. But it does put a strain on your life. What happens is you become a cave pai"}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 33, "text": "I find it interesting that somebody as verbal as you, both as a speaker and as a writer, would spend all this time in a completely non-verbal situation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Kind of a primitive exaltation. You begin to realize what's very important in your life, and it isn't how you look, and it's not money, and it's not - you just understand the basics of what you're doi"}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 34, "text": "What's the most awful or frightening part of running the Iditarod?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I really did. I tried. About 10 below, you're done with a laptop. It won't work after that, and close to zero, even, is kind of rough. They don't like it much."}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 35, "text": "When did you figure out it was just a hallucination?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The hallucinations become really mean about the third night, and deciding what's real and what isn't real becomes kind of a nightmare in some cases. I mean, I had - at one time, I thought my whole tea"}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 36, "text": "Where do the hallucinations come from?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It just lasted like, I don't know, a minute, something like that."}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 37, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "From sleep deprivation. You simply don't sleep for the race. And you kind of catch dozes here and there, but you really don't sleep. And by the third night, everybody's wonky. I mean, it's really - fr"}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 38, "text": "When you were doing the Iditarod, would you take a book with you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's the most incredible thing."}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 39, "text": "What would you take?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm hmm."}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 40, "text": "What would you read?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I worked every day, too. I really did. I had a notebook. I wrote."}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 41, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I took - I know you want me to say Jack London. I don't think people like Jack London ever ran dogs. He didn't know what he was talking about mostly, but - which is kind of sad 'cause he was a good wr"}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 42, "text": "This was the same time that you were hallucinating.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just scrawled across the paper."}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 43, "text": "Is this at all useful to you as a writer to hallucinate?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Exactly. God, once I came into the village at night, and I could see people all over on snow machines. They were waving at me and yelling at me, and I was trying to turn my dog"}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 44, "text": "If not for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think so, no. I don't think - it was an interesting study in maybe a kind of temporary madness, but - maybe that's what the Iditarod is. And what's really sick is I'd be doing it still."}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 45, "text": "My interview with Gary Paulsen was recorded in 1992. He died last week. After we take a short break, we'll hear more about his experiences running the Iditarod as we listen back to an interview from 1994, after he published his memoir about the race. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My heart. I would have gone again. I'd have gone last year, the year before, and I'd be going this year. It's just - it just grips you. It just does, and it - nobody who runs that is ever the same aga"}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 46, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. On today's show, we're remembering author Gary Paulsen. He died last week at the age of 82. His over 200 books sold about 35 million copies. Mostly, he wrote books for young adults about adventure and survival, including the books \"Dogsong,\" \"Hatchet\" and \"The Winter Room,\" which each won a Newbery honor for children's literature. But he also wrote books for adults. In 1994, two years after the interview we just heard, he published the memoir \"Winterdance\" about his first time running the Iditarod, the over-1000-mile dog sled race across Alaska from Anchorage to Nome. He ran it three times. At one point, he had as many as 91 dogs. When the memoir was published, Paulsen talked about the Iditarod with FRESH AIR guest host Marty Moss-Coane, who hosts the popular show Radio Times on WHYY, where we produce FRESH AIR. In his interview with Marty, he elaborated on why he decided to run the race.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My heart. I would have gone again. I'd have gone last year, the year before, and I'd be going this year. It's just - it just grips you. It just does, and it - nobody who runs that is ever the same aga"}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 47, "text": "We're listening to an interview with author Gary Paulsen. He died last week. He spoke with Marty Moss-Coane in 1994, on a day she guest hosted FRESH AIR. We'll hear more of their interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was more than sleeping. It was the concept of becoming dog. If you want to learn, I mean, there's no substitute for personal inspection at zero altitude in life, really. That's the best possi"}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 48, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're remembering author Gary Paulsen today. He died last week at the age of 82. Let's get back to the interview he recorded in 1994 with Marty Moss-Coane on a day she guest hosted our show. When we left off, they were talking about the first time he ran the Iditarod, the grueling dog-sled race across Alaska.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was more than sleeping. It was the concept of becoming dog. If you want to learn, I mean, there's no substitute for personal inspection at zero altitude in life, really. That's the best possi"}
{"id": "1047416065", "date": "2021-10-20", "guest": "Gary Paulsen", "title": "Remembering Gary Paulsen, author of 'Dogsled' and 'Hatchet'", "question_index": 49, "text": "Gary Paulsen, speaking with FRESH AIR guest host Marty Moss-Coane in 1994 after the publication of his memoir, \"Winterdance.\" Paulsen died of cardiac arrest last week. He was 82. His memoir, \"Gone To The Woods,\" was published earlier this year. After we take a short break, John Powers will review Todd Haynes' new documentary about The Velvet Underground. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it's an altering experience."}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 0, "text": "Please welcome a man you don't want to play cards with, Ricky Jay.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As George) Pushy, Jim, pushy? - you don't know what pushy is. Now, give me my $6,000."}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 1, "text": "Now, you not only know a lot about cards, you know, a lot about the history of con games.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As George) Pushy, Jim, pushy? - you don't know what pushy is. Now, give me my $6,000."}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 2, "text": "Now...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm interested, yeah."}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 3, "text": "...In the movie we just saw, in \"House Of Games,\" Joe Mantegna, when he's teaching Lindsay Crouse about cons, he says, people think a confidence game is when you give the con man your trust. But a confidence game starts when the con man gives you his trust. Is that true?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm interested, yeah."}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 4, "text": "Tell us a con game that you find - a con that you find particularly interesting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's a lovely subtlety. I've never seen that particular point mentioned by anyone but Mamet. But I think it is a lovely thing, that you want to be able to do that. You want to be able to trust"}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 5, "text": "So what is your code of ethics as someone who knows a lot about con games? It sounds like part of the code is to protect the con men", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I wrote - I remember sending this clipping to Mamet with a note saying, this is clearly the only practical thing I've ever done in my life."}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I wrote - I remember sending this clipping to Mamet with a note saying, this is clearly the only practical thing I've ever done in my life."}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 7, "text": "Would you ever run a con on somebody? Have you ever done that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess I did just imply that, didn't I?"}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 8, "text": "Now, you, as I mentioned, you're an expert on the history of really odd and eccentric performers. And you were in a carnival yourself...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that is, in fact, the way that I deal with people in the film world or the theater world or the television world if I'm consulting, which is that if a director has to know how a piece works to sho"}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 9, "text": "...Briefly as a barker. And I had asked you to do this on FRESH AIR. I'm going to ask you again to just give us a sense of what your rap was.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's true."}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 10, "text": "The pitch, yeah, when you were a carnival barker.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, the pitch I used as..."}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 11, "text": "What is a 10-in-one show?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's called the ballay (ph) more technically on the platform. Yeah, I ran a 10-in-one show for..."}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 12, "text": "Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It means 10 attractions under a single tent."}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 13, "text": "Did you write that yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So you pay one admission and you get 10 acts, so there could be a five in one or a 10 in one. I wish you would have asked me about this earlier so I could have thought about it, but I have a feeling o"}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 14, "text": "Now, didn't you do an electric chair act with a woman?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Far from writing it, it's very much part of an oral tradition, including the mispronunciation of words like morphodite for hermaphrodite and corious for curious. And, you know, often, you know, th"}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 15, "text": "And so it would look like she was getting electrified?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did, yeah, as part of that carnival. The electric chair was basically a woman sat in a chair, and you would walk up to her and hold an electric light bulb or fluorescent bulbs to various parts of he"}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 16, "text": "So how did she light up when you when you would hold a light bulb on her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was never really specified. I mean, you know, it - And then there was another thing that we did with the girl afterwards, which was called the blow off, which is you then put the girl in a bo"}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 17, "text": "You were introduced to magic, I think, by your grandfather when you were a kid. What was his magic act like?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's conversation with master magician Ricky Jay, recorded on stage in 1998. He died in 2018."}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 18, "text": "And did he teach you things?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he didn't so much do an act. At times he did - during the Second World War, he did perform for servicemen. He did USO shows. And so I imagine he did an act then, but that's before I was born. He"}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 19, "text": "Like Slydini.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes, absolutely. Yeah, very specifically and absolutely. And then not only did he, but he got the great people of the day who were also his friends and his teachers to spend time with me as well."}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 20, "text": "Who was Slydini?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like Slydini."}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 21, "text": "How did you end up in the carnival?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Slydini - Quintino Marucci - was an Italian man who lived in the city who did this wonderfully poetic magic and was a wonderfully artistic fellow. I mean, he actually made me in those years - he"}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 22, "text": "Now, when you started doing magic professionally, I think it was in the 1960s or '70s. And it was during what was in part, you know, like, the LSD. Or a lot of people in your audience were probably hallucinating while you were performing...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Conducting turtle races, all the usual stuff. I got a call one day from this guy. I mean, he tracked me down to this bar and said that someone had dropped out of the show, and would I come join the ca"}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 23, "text": "...This sleight-of-hand stuff. It must have been a pretty strange time, in a way, to be doing magic.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Conducting turtle races, all the usual stuff. I got a call one day from this guy. I mean, he tracked me down to this bar and said that someone had dropped out of the show, and would I come join the ca"}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 24, "text": "That's true. You were 7, I think, when you started performing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one of the jobs - I mean, I was doing it professionally quite young, doing TV and stuff."}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 25, "text": "But they must have just read all of this stuff into what you were doing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm not unhappy that I did it. And I cherish the memory."}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 26, "text": "Now, a lot of what you've learned, you've learned from actually knowing con men. How did you find them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Probably, it's the experience in my life where I had least to do with the reaction that was, in fact, happening. I don't..."}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 27, "text": "You know, exactly. Exactly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I guess it was that ad in The New York Times."}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 28, "text": "I mean, a magician performs, you know where to find them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I guess it was that ad in The New York Times."}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 29, "text": "What about a con man?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's true."}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 30, "text": "So - but where? I mean, carnivals? Carnivals?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I will say that. You meet people with like interests somehow, and then you do."}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 31, "text": "How can I find a con man", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I will say that. You meet people with like interests somehow, and then you do."}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 32, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I will say that. You meet people with like interests somehow, and then you do."}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 33, "text": "Would I be a good mark? Would I be a good mark, do you think? Or are there certain people who are good marks?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, one will find you."}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 34, "text": "Isn't there a part of you that instead of just not telling how you do things really wants to say, this is how I do it. This is how I figured out how to do it. Like, isn't there a part in magicians that would really like to kind of brag about how they do what they do instead of hiding it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I - you know, it's a difficult question to answer. I think we're all susceptible to being marks unless, as I said before, we're so calloused and so jaded that we trust no one in their lives. And I ima"}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 35, "text": "But you can't?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely is the answer. Absolutely. There are times where you're crying to tell someone, whoa, look what I just - you know, you really want to do that. You absolutely do."}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 36, "text": "Who's also a magician?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But you can't. I think - yeah, I think you can't. You go home and tell your friend, you know, your best friend, you know?"}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 37, "text": "Now, you're also interested in con games. Do you consider magic a conning act?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross. Let's listen to some of Terry's 1987 interview with master magician and author and actor Ricky Jay. He had just published his book, \"Learned"}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 38, "text": "Are there interesting swindles going on on city streets today?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I, at times, feel that I have to draw the line. I mean, here we are talking about freaks and cons and all sorts of fields with some sort of pejorative connotation. And yet, I believe t"}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 39, "text": "Things like Three-card Monte?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, sure. I mean, the things - one of the observations that I try to make in the book - and I don't spend a lot of time doing that. I mean, mostly, I'm just presenting facts about people. But it doe"}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 40, "text": "Have you ever gone up to swindlers or conmen and try to beat them at their own game?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Three-card Monte doesn't go back that far. That's a fairly recent origin. But the three-shell game, which is a version of thimble rigging, goes back to - I've been trying to trace it back to the 17th "}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 41, "text": "What kind of venues have you come up with to perform your magic act in? Where did you start establishing yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a very dangerous thing to do. It's a very bad thing to do. I think there are some people in this field who think that if they're magicians and know something about this, this is a great opportuni"}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 42, "text": "Is close-up magic more difficult because the person's eyes are that close to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I've really run the gamut. I mean, early years where I would just do close-up magic, I rebelled against being on a stage. And I would wear - I think when I did the \"Tonight\" show the first time,"}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 43, "text": "You quote your grandfather, who said that - he was a magician. And he said he never played with cards because if he lost, he was thought to be an incompetent magician, and if he won, he was suspected to be a cheater. I was figuring that would probably be true with dice also.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ricky Jay, speaking with Terry Gross in 1987. Terry spoke with Ricky Jay again in 2002, after the publication of another of his books, which was called \"Dice: Deception, Fate & Rotten Luck.\""}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 44, "text": "How are loaded dice made? Like, what makes - what's the principle there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it is. I think I actually mention it in that aspect in the book because of the same thing - of people being suspected of being cheaters if they simply won. I mean, that bears to mind one of, I t"}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 45, "text": "Before you became a master of the con game and a historian of the con, were you ever taken - I mean, when you started to really love this stuff, before you knew how it worked, did you play Three-card Monte and lose all the time? Did you play dice with people who were cheating, but you didn't quite know how, so you were losing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the principle is that a foreign substance is placed into the dice at some specific spot to make it favor the throwing of certain points. So - I think that that's a reasonably accurate analysis o"}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 46, "text": "Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let me say that I have been in card games and games of chance in which people were moving. That's the correct term. People were absolutely moving. And sometimes you can determine it while it's happeni"}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 47, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because they're clearly suckers. Anybody can be cheated."}
{"id": "1050434428", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Joe Mantegna", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates master magician Ricky Jay", "question_index": 48, "text": "Well, Ricky Jay, a real pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, there are just levels and new work that's being done all the time."}
{"id": "1050436682", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Peter Scolari", "title": "Remembering 'Bosom Buddies' and 'Girls' actor Peter Scolari", "question_index": 0, "text": "So do you think of yourself as using a different voice and character than the voice that you normally speak with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Michael Harris) Tomato, tomahto, (ph) Dick."}
{"id": "1050436682", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Peter Scolari", "title": "Remembering 'Bosom Buddies' and 'Girls' actor Peter Scolari", "question_index": 1, "text": "You know, your character is always described as the ultimate yuppie, but I think, to me, it's as if you also went back to like old screwball comedies and watched, like, the really wealthy people, the old money people, and got some of their mannerisms.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, but you know, it's funny. You've raised an interesting point here because I come home the night before, for example, last night from what is effectively the last day of rehearsal, and I can't get"}
{"id": "1050436682", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Peter Scolari", "title": "Remembering 'Bosom Buddies' and 'Girls' actor Peter Scolari", "question_index": 2, "text": "You know, I've been really wanting to interview you and find out more about you. But I had this, like, terrible feeling that you'd think it was your duty to prove that you were smart and sensitive unlike your character.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Although, you know, Michael, in point of fact, at least as I perceive him, is not really a very successful yuppie at all. Michael doesn't drive a BMW or a Mercedes. He probably didn't finish coll"}
{"id": "1050436682", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Peter Scolari", "title": "Remembering 'Bosom Buddies' and 'Girls' actor Peter Scolari", "question_index": 3, "text": "No, but it really - I bet that you are expected to prove that in a way, you know, that you're not the character who you play.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I've worked through that in therapy, and now I no longer have the need to prove that on public radio."}
{"id": "1050436682", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Peter Scolari", "title": "Remembering 'Bosom Buddies' and 'Girls' actor Peter Scolari", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that's true. That is true. I've been stopped and insulted and I know people think they're being very nice."}
{"id": "1050436682", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Peter Scolari", "title": "Remembering 'Bosom Buddies' and 'Girls' actor Peter Scolari", "question_index": 5, "text": "I know that you're interested in circuses and carnivals and that you've done some juggling yourself.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But they say things that we can't say on radio and they ask me if that's what I'm really like. It's kind of a difficult question to answer. On occasions, I've managed to be able to say, yes, I am like"}
{"id": "1050436682", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Peter Scolari", "title": "Remembering 'Bosom Buddies' and 'Girls' actor Peter Scolari", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1050436682", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Peter Scolari", "title": "Remembering 'Bosom Buddies' and 'Girls' actor Peter Scolari", "question_index": 7, "text": "Well, how did you get interested in that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I'm juggling right now."}
{"id": "1050436682", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Peter Scolari", "title": "Remembering 'Bosom Buddies' and 'Girls' actor Peter Scolari", "question_index": 8, "text": "Yeah. How have circus arts affected your acting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, I was in a play in New York back in 1977 playing a court jester with a very beloved friend of mine, Tom Tammi. Our job was to upstage each other night after night. And somewhere along the wa"}
{"id": "1050436682", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Peter Scolari", "title": "Remembering 'Bosom Buddies' and 'Girls' actor Peter Scolari", "question_index": 9, "text": "It's interesting for you to describe how athletic you couldn't help but look. In a role on the \"Newhart\" show, you seem very unauthentic, like someone who wouldn't, you know, jog or play tennis or basketball because it might muss their hair up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, Terry, when I was in high school and for a period in college, I could still be considered somewhat of an OK athlete. And in fact, I carried around that kind of physical life. And I fou"}
{"id": "1050436682", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Peter Scolari", "title": "Remembering 'Bosom Buddies' and 'Girls' actor Peter Scolari", "question_index": 10, "text": "Did juggling and circus arts also help you learn how to not look athletic if you didn't need to look athletic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "1050436682", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Peter Scolari", "title": "Remembering 'Bosom Buddies' and 'Girls' actor Peter Scolari", "question_index": 11, "text": "Are you recognized when you're out of character?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I can - I could - I mean, well, hopefully Michael is kind of proof of that. But, yes, I mean, it's not that you appear - you have to suggest that you're clumsy to appear no"}
{"id": "1050436682", "date": "2021-10-29", "guest": "Peter Scolari", "title": "Remembering 'Bosom Buddies' and 'Girls' actor Peter Scolari", "question_index": 12, "text": "Thanks so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I am consistently recognized. And what's been nice in the last year is that I don't seem to be getting recognized as the character. This was something that was happening in the last, you know, pr"}
{"id": "1052320491", "date": "2021-11-04", "guest": "Carol Leonnig", "title": "Investigation finds federal agencies dismissed threats ahead of the Jan. 6 attack", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. There are still so many questions surrounding the January 6 attack on the Capitol. Some of those questions are answered in a three-part series published this week in The Washington Post, investigating what happened before, during and after the insurrection. The report says Trump was the driving force at every turn as he orchestrated what became an attempted political coup. He called his supporters to Washington, D.C. He encouraged the mob to march on the Capitol and froze in place key federal agencies whose job it was to investigate and stop threats to national security. That last part about how federal agencies failed to stop the attack and how Trump contributed to that failure, that's the part that was reported by my guest Carol Leonnig, an investigative reporter for The Washington Post. She also co-wrote, with the Post's Philip Rucker, two books about the Trump presidency, \"A Very Stable Genius\" and \"I Alone Can Fix It.\" Her recent book, \"Zero Fail,\" is about the rise and fall of the Secret Service. We recorded our interview yesterday. Carol Leonnig, welcome back to FRESH AIR, and congratulations on this Washington Post series. So let's just start with a little bit of framing. What was the mission of this three-part series, and what was the approach the Post took to doing it?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1052320491", "date": "2021-11-04", "guest": "Carol Leonnig", "title": "Investigation finds federal agencies dismissed threats ahead of the Jan. 6 attack", "question_index": 1, "text": "Well, your focus, your part in the reporting was largely based on what happened before, what were the failures in intelligence and security. So let's start with that. There was so much organizing being done online in the open where people were saying they were going to bring guns. Did intelligence agencies not believe what they were reading?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, thanks for having me. This whole huge, enormous months-long, 75-reporter-strong project began basically with some frustration inside our newsroom. At the time - and it might be hard to remember"}
{"id": "1052320491", "date": "2021-11-04", "guest": "Carol Leonnig", "title": "Investigation finds federal agencies dismissed threats ahead of the Jan. 6 attack", "question_index": 2, "text": "Well, you were told by somebody at the FBI that most of the tips that the FBI received contained vague and primarily First Amendment-protected speech. Can you expand on that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's so interesting, Terry. It's almost as if the world of intelligence before January 6 was divided into two unequal camps - one camp that was like, oh, yeah, that's just chatter; that does"}
{"id": "1052320491", "date": "2021-11-04", "guest": "Carol Leonnig", "title": "Investigation finds federal agencies dismissed threats ahead of the Jan. 6 attack", "question_index": 3, "text": "There were concerns way before January 6, like, concerns for the past few years that the FBI wasn't paying sufficient attention to domestic terrorism. And I'm wondering if that proved to be true on January 6 and if you think that, in general, this reflects a lack of concern about domestic terrorism at the FBI.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This has been one of the most confounding elements of our investigation. The FBI told us - numerous officials inside told us that this was just aspirational conversation and it was protected First Ame"}
{"id": "1052320491", "date": "2021-11-04", "guest": "Carol Leonnig", "title": "Investigation finds federal agencies dismissed threats ahead of the Jan. 6 attack", "question_index": 4, "text": "Domestic terrorism, as you point out in the article, those cases are the only type of terrorism that require explicit authorization and regular reauthorization from the senior lawyer in an FBI field office to proceed. And that's probably for really good reasons. You don't want the FBI just spying on everybody", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I think that the attack on the Capitol came at a particularly stressful, high-tension moment for the FBI. You know, let's put ourselves in the shoes for a moment of FBI Director Chris Wray a"}
{"id": "1052320491", "date": "2021-11-04", "guest": "Carol Leonnig", "title": "Investigation finds federal agencies dismissed threats ahead of the Jan. 6 attack", "question_index": 5, "text": "in America, so you want safeguards. But what did we learn about how those safeguards work when there is a genuine threat to American democracy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I think that the attack on the Capitol came at a particularly stressful, high-tension moment for the FBI. You know, let's put ourselves in the shoes for a moment of FBI Director Chris Wray a"}
{"id": "1052320491", "date": "2021-11-04", "guest": "Carol Leonnig", "title": "Investigation finds federal agencies dismissed threats ahead of the Jan. 6 attack", "question_index": 6, "text": "One of the lessons of 9/11 was that the intelligence agencies weren't communicating sufficiently with each other. What about this time around? Was that one of the problems, a lack of communication, in spite of all we were supposed to have learned after 9/11?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They didn't work. I mean, I think it's fair to deduce after five months of reporting, looking at multiple threats that should have triggered - and FBI agents themselves have told me should have trigge"}
{"id": "1052320491", "date": "2021-11-04", "guest": "Carol Leonnig", "title": "Investigation finds federal agencies dismissed threats ahead of the Jan. 6 attack", "question_index": 7, "text": "So the Capitol Police concerns about January 6 weren't communicated to their chief, and therefore, when the chief asks for the National Guard to be on standby, he didn't have the evidence to back up his request - was that the problem?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, sadly, yes. I mean, they did not coordinate. We found so many examples of people, because they were the decision-makers, who should have been given key information to make those decisions, t"}
{"id": "1052320491", "date": "2021-11-04", "guest": "Carol Leonnig", "title": "Investigation finds federal agencies dismissed threats ahead of the Jan. 6 attack", "question_index": 8, "text": "And who turns down the request for the National Guard to be on standby?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was one of many problems. I mean, eventually, he gets a copy of the report, the full report. He is not invited to a briefing where the intel chief, who works for him, is explaining, you know, wha"}
{"id": "1052320491", "date": "2021-11-04", "guest": "Carol Leonnig", "title": "Investigation finds federal agencies dismissed threats ahead of the Jan. 6 attack", "question_index": 9, "text": "But Nancy Pelosi was, in fact, very worried about what was going to happen on the 6, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Chief Sund asks his bosses, who happen to be political appointees of Nancy Pelosi and Mitch McConnell, the speaker and the Senate majority leader at the time. They are former Secret Service executives"}
{"id": "1052320491", "date": "2021-11-04", "guest": "Carol Leonnig", "title": "Investigation finds federal agencies dismissed threats ahead of the Jan. 6 attack", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Washington Post national investigative reporter Carol Leonnig, one of the reporters who contributed to this week's three-part series in The Post investigating what happened before, during and after the attack on the Capitol on January 6. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was very worried. But to be fair, what she was worried about was what she described as, you know, partisan high jinks. She thought the president and the Republican Party were going to try to pull "}
{"id": "1052320491", "date": "2021-11-04", "guest": "Carol Leonnig", "title": "Investigation finds federal agencies dismissed threats ahead of the Jan. 6 attack", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Carol Leonnig, one of the Washington Post reporters who contributed to this week's three-part series in the Post investigating what happened before, during and after the attack on the Capitol on January 6. She's also the co-author, along with fellow Washington Post reporter Philip Rucker, of two books about Trump, \"A Very Stable Genius\" and \"I Alone Can Fix It.\" And she's the author of a recent book about the Secret Service called \"Zero Fail: The Rise And Fall Of The Secret Service.\" So, Carol, as, you know, all this, like, social media is building about, like, coming armed to the Capitol on January 6 and Trump is kind of tweeting, like, come, be there, meanwhile, the National Park Service had given a permit for about 5,000 people to rally at the Ellipse on January 6 and then, in response to a request for more people, they upped it to tens of thousands of people. I forget whether it's 30,000 or 50,000 people the permit changed to.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was very worried. But to be fair, what she was worried about was what she described as, you know, partisan high jinks. She thought the president and the Republican Party were going to try to pull "}
{"id": "1052320491", "date": "2021-11-04", "guest": "Carol Leonnig", "title": "Investigation finds federal agencies dismissed threats ahead of the Jan. 6 attack", "question_index": 12, "text": "Were those requests for increases in permits considered a red flag? And was security and intelligence in on the decisions to increase the number of people requested in the permits?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it went up sequentially a couple of times, and I believe the final number was 30,000. And other permits also were increased. You know, there are various groups that were asking for additional sp"}
{"id": "1052320491", "date": "2021-11-04", "guest": "Carol Leonnig", "title": "Investigation finds federal agencies dismissed threats ahead of the Jan. 6 attack", "question_index": 13, "text": "So getting back to the question of whether intelligence and security were in on the decision to, or at least informed about the decision, to increase the number of people included in the permit to rally on January 6 - increase it by tens of thousands.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, such a good question, and really actually goes right to the heart of what we were discussing a moment ago. Chief Sund of the Capitol Police learns or gets wind of the fact that these permits"}
{"id": "1052320491", "date": "2021-11-04", "guest": "Carol Leonnig", "title": "Investigation finds federal agencies dismissed threats ahead of the Jan. 6 attack", "question_index": 14, "text": "So you write that Pentagon leaders were afraid about widespread violence, and some Pentagon leaders were afraid that Trump could misuse the National Guard on January 6 to remain in power. Tell us more about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It doesn't feel to me from our reporting that security professionals were even considered in that upping of that permit. It was almost handed out, you know, like a gift. Like, sure, OK. You want more?"}
{"id": "1052320491", "date": "2021-11-04", "guest": "Carol Leonnig", "title": "Investigation finds federal agencies dismissed threats ahead of the Jan. 6 attack", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well, let's take a break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Carol Leonnig. She's a Washington Post national investigative correspondent and one of the reporters who contributed to this week's three-part series in the Post investigating what happened before, during and after the attack on the Capitol January 6. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's a stunner because I can't think of a time in American history when the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the top military adviser to the president and the secretary of the Army are con"}
{"id": "1052320491", "date": "2021-11-04", "guest": "Carol Leonnig", "title": "Investigation finds federal agencies dismissed threats ahead of the Jan. 6 attack", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Washington Post national investigative correspondent Carol Leonnig, one of the reporters who contributed to this week's three-part series in The Washington Post investigating what happened before, during and after the attack on the Capitol on January 6. She's also the author of two books, along with Philip Rucker, a fellow Washington Post reporter, two books about Donald Trump. One is called \"A Very Stable Genius\" and the other \"I Alone Can Fix It.\" She's also the author of the book \"Zero Fail: The Rise and Fall Of The Secret Service.\" So I want to quote a line from the article - from the series of articles in the Post. And it's that Trump called his supporters to Washington, D.C., encouraged the mob to march on the Capitol and froze in place key federal agencies whose job it was to investigate and stop threats to national security. What did Trump do to freeze those agencies in place?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's a stunner because I can't think of a time in American history when the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the top military adviser to the president and the secretary of the Army are con"}
{"id": "1052320491", "date": "2021-11-04", "guest": "Carol Leonnig", "title": "Investigation finds federal agencies dismissed threats ahead of the Jan. 6 attack", "question_index": 17, "text": "So you're painting a picture where a lot of the leaders in charge of intelligence and security were afraid they'd lose their job if they were investigating this Stop the Steal movement and the planned January 6 protest?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Donald Trump was at war with all of his executive agencies in one respect or another, but especially those that we call the - those that Mark Milley told people were the guys with the guns. He was at "}
{"id": "1052320491", "date": "2021-11-04", "guest": "Carol Leonnig", "title": "Investigation finds federal agencies dismissed threats ahead of the Jan. 6 attack", "question_index": 18, "text": "Trump's own national security adviser was most concerned not about the Stop the Steal folks who were planning to come on January 6. He was concerned about the counterprotesters, the people Trump always describes as antifa.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. I mean, there were people inside - to give you an indication of how bad it was, the FBI officials we spoke to on background told us that Chris Wray did not believe it would be a good idea "}
{"id": "1052320491", "date": "2021-11-04", "guest": "Carol Leonnig", "title": "Investigation finds federal agencies dismissed threats ahead of the Jan. 6 attack", "question_index": 19, "text": "And that's probably one of the messages that Trump got. Like, we're really worried about the people who are against you. We're not worried about your own supporters.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. It's interesting too to me that in those conference calls, you know, Robert O'Brien is the White House representative on those calls. He knows when he's talking to Chad Wolf at Homeland "}
{"id": "1052320491", "date": "2021-11-04", "guest": "Carol Leonnig", "title": "Investigation finds federal agencies dismissed threats ahead of the Jan. 6 attack", "question_index": 20, "text": "So let's take a short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Washington Post national investigative correspondent Carol Leonnig, one of the reporters who contributed to this week's three-part series in the Post investigating what happened before, during and after the attack on the Capitol on January 6. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. There is a funny - not-so-funny conversation in the Oval Office on January 3, which, if I remember correctly, is a Sunday. And it's really a Defense Department meeting in the Oval to tal"}
{"id": "1052320491", "date": "2021-11-04", "guest": "Carol Leonnig", "title": "Investigation finds federal agencies dismissed threats ahead of the Jan. 6 attack", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Washington Post national investigative correspondent Carol Leonnig, one of the reporters who contributed to this week's three-part series in The Washington Post investigating what happened before, during and after the attack on the Capitol January 6. Carol, one of your recent books is about the Secret Service. It's called \"Zero Fail,\" and it's about the rise and fall of the Secret Service. What role could the Secret Service have played to help stop the attack on January 6 - what role, if any? And what role, if any, did they play?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. There is a funny - not-so-funny conversation in the Oval Office on January 3, which, if I remember correctly, is a Sunday. And it's really a Defense Department meeting in the Oval to tal"}
{"id": "1052320491", "date": "2021-11-04", "guest": "Carol Leonnig", "title": "Investigation finds federal agencies dismissed threats ahead of the Jan. 6 attack", "question_index": 22, "text": "So what you've described is systems failures every step of the way in every agency.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Good question. So, you know, the Secret Service, thanks to President Clinton, was put in charge of all special national security events. That means that the Secret Service, in addition to protecting t"}
{"id": "1052320491", "date": "2021-11-04", "guest": "Carol Leonnig", "title": "Investigation finds federal agencies dismissed threats ahead of the Jan. 6 attack", "question_index": 23, "text": "What else would you like to find out that you don't already know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I - you know, we hate to say it, but there, like, are no great heroes here. A lot of people who were concerned didn't yell loud enough. A lot of people who were trying to stay on top of this didn"}
{"id": "1052320491", "date": "2021-11-04", "guest": "Carol Leonnig", "title": "Investigation finds federal agencies dismissed threats ahead of the Jan. 6 attack", "question_index": 24, "text": "Well, let's take another short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Washington Post national investigative correspondent Carol Leonnig, one of the reporters who contributed to this week's three-part series in the Post investigating what happened before, during and after the attack on the Capitol January 6. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think one of the most critical things to learn is the degree to which members of Congress were coordinating, fomenting and planning some of what we saw on January 6. This is not to be an accusation "}
{"id": "1052320491", "date": "2021-11-04", "guest": "Carol Leonnig", "title": "Investigation finds federal agencies dismissed threats ahead of the Jan. 6 attack", "question_index": 25, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Washington Post national investigative correspondent Carol Leonnig, one of the reporters who contributed to this week's three-part series in the Post investigating what happened before, during and after the attack on the Capitol on January 6. The Washington Post series has a chronology of what was happening at the Capitol during the attack and what Trump was doing at the same time. Mostly what he was doing was watching TV during the first about three hours. Aides were coming into his office. Some of them were urging him, like, do something to stop this. This is dangerous. This - you know, Congress is under attack. The Capitol is under attack. And Trump was basically ignoring it and continuing to watch TV. So it took hours before he did anything to try to stop what was happening. And what he did to try to stop it was basically to say, oh, go home peacefully. And you know, you're all great guys. I'm paraphrasing here, but I think - would you agree, that's the gist of it? Do we know if he did anything to stand in the way of the attack being stopped?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think one of the most critical things to learn is the degree to which members of Congress were coordinating, fomenting and planning some of what we saw on January 6. This is not to be an accusation "}
{"id": "1052320491", "date": "2021-11-04", "guest": "Carol Leonnig", "title": "Investigation finds federal agencies dismissed threats ahead of the Jan. 6 attack", "question_index": 26, "text": "You know, it seems the whole Stop the Steal movement has only increased after January 6 after seeing the siege on the Capitol, after all this reporting that's been done about how there's absolutely no evidence of the kind of election fraud that the Stop the Steal movement is talking about, reporting on how all of these crazy conspiracy theories are nothing but crazy conspiracy theories. After all that, the movement seems to only be growing and growing within the Republican Party, both in terms of people in or running for office or in appointed positions and in terms of just voters in the Republican Party. And I'm wondering if you can elaborate on that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Those two tweets essentially were different versions of the same thing, saying this is all a lot of violence by antifa. My people are lovely. You know, please go home so the cops can collect the rea"}
{"id": "1052320491", "date": "2021-11-04", "guest": "Carol Leonnig", "title": "Investigation finds federal agencies dismissed threats ahead of the Jan. 6 attack", "question_index": 27, "text": "Carol Leonnig, I want to thank you for your reporting and thank you for coming back to our show. It's been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's been a really stunning thing to watch as, you know, a journalist based in fact and trying to deliver facts - especially hard-to-get facts - to the public. It - this is not a hard-to-get fact that"}
{"id": "1052320491", "date": "2021-11-04", "guest": "Carol Leonnig", "title": "Investigation finds federal agencies dismissed threats ahead of the Jan. 6 attack", "question_index": 28, "text": "Carol Leonnig is a national investigative reporter for The Washington Post and contributed to the Post's three-part series published this week about what happened before, during and after the January 6 attack on the Capitol.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A pleasure for me too, Terry. Thanks for focusing on this."}
{"id": "1052320491", "date": "2021-11-04", "guest": "Carol Leonnig", "title": "Investigation finds federal agencies dismissed threats ahead of the Jan. 6 attack", "question_index": 29, "text": "If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, like this week's interviews with Paul McCartney or Edgar Wright, director of the new film \"Last Night In Soho,\" or novelist Gary Shteyngart, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Seth Kelley and Kayla Lattimore. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A pleasure for me too, Terry. Thanks for focusing on this."}
{"id": "1052705059", "date": "2021-11-05", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "British actor Terence Stamp reflects on London in the swinging '60s", "question_index": 0, "text": "Is it ever embarrassing when it really is passion?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it can be either, you know. It can be absolutely acting, and it can be absolute passion. I think the great Warren Beatty once said that the way to get stars in the movie is to find out who wants"}
{"id": "1052705059", "date": "2021-11-05", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "British actor Terence Stamp reflects on London in the swinging '60s", "question_index": 1, "text": "Do you think you could tell the difference on screen between relationships on screen that are just acting and relationships on screen where there really is some passion beyond the acting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's never passion-passion because, you know - because everybody's there. It's like - you'd have to be a real exhibitionist to get real passion - I mean, actual passion. But I think you have a g"}
{"id": "1052705059", "date": "2021-11-05", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "British actor Terence Stamp reflects on London in the swinging '60s", "question_index": 2, "text": "Yes, that's right. Exactly, right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think so. I don't think so. I mean - well, you're talking about good actors, right?"}
{"id": "1052705059", "date": "2021-11-05", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "British actor Terence Stamp reflects on London in the swinging '60s", "question_index": 3, "text": "Exactly, exactly. I'd like to do, like, a film retrospective with you. So let's go back to your very first movie, \"Billy Budd.\" This was made in 1962. It's based on the Herman Melville story. You play a teenager who's impressed to serve on a British ship during war with France. And you're the epitome of decency and goodness, whereas the master-at-arms is a sadist and very villainous. After he sets you up to take a fall for a crime you're innocent of, you try to defend yourself verbally, but your speech impediment prevents that. You have something of a stammer. You punch him. He dies from a head wound when he hits the ground, and then you're court-martialed. Here you are in \"Billy Budd\" being interrogated by the ship's officers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "With bad actors, you can't tell anything."}
{"id": "1052705059", "date": "2021-11-05", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "British actor Terence Stamp reflects on London in the swinging '60s", "question_index": 4, "text": "That's Terence Stamp in a scene from \"Billy Budd.\" Terence Stamp, this was your first role in a movie, and it's the leading role in a prestigious film. You must have had to learn a lot on camera.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Billy Budd) I bore no malice against the master-at-arms. I'm sorry that he is dead. I did not mean to kill him. If I'd have found my tongue, I would not have struck him. But he lied foully to my f"}
{"id": "1052705059", "date": "2021-11-05", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "British actor Terence Stamp reflects on London in the swinging '60s", "question_index": 5, "text": "How old were you when you made \"Billy Budd\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I did, and I didn't. In fact, as two young, out-of-work actors, I was sharing digs with Michael Caine. And although Michael Caine wasn't known - you know, he hadn't been just discovered; he was "}
{"id": "1052705059", "date": "2021-11-05", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "British actor Terence Stamp reflects on London in the swinging '60s", "question_index": 6, "text": "Wow. Was acting a far-fetched ambition from someone from your neighborhood?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had my 21st birthday during the movie."}
{"id": "1052705059", "date": "2021-11-05", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "British actor Terence Stamp reflects on London in the swinging '60s", "question_index": 7, "text": "Sounds like a great contrast - you know, the father who doesn't show emotion at all", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I saw my first movie, and I just wanted to be that. And I never really spoke about it. In other words, it was a very private sort of fantasy that I had. And when it got to sort of near leaving sc"}
{"id": "1052705059", "date": "2021-11-05", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "British actor Terence Stamp reflects on London in the swinging '60s", "question_index": 8, "text": ", doesn't register any, and the son who's learning how to register emotion on stage and on screen.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I saw my first movie, and I just wanted to be that. And I never really spoke about it. In other words, it was a very private sort of fantasy that I had. And when it got to sort of near leaving sc"}
{"id": "1052705059", "date": "2021-11-05", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "British actor Terence Stamp reflects on London in the swinging '60s", "question_index": 9, "text": "Now, you said that you grew up in a very cockney neighborhood. So did you have a cockney accent when you started to act?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2002 interview with British actor Terence Stamp. He's currently in the new film \"Last Night In Soho.\""}
{"id": "1052705059", "date": "2021-11-05", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "British actor Terence Stamp reflects on London in the swinging '60s", "question_index": 10, "text": "You write a little bit about your accents in one of your memoirs. And you say that you convinced yourself that since you had a natural ear and could pick up accents easily, instead of learning to speak proper English, you would just treat English roles - standard English roles - as a dialect and, you know, just learn it for those roles. Did that strategy work out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure. I mean, when I finally realized that I would have to go to drama school, you know, to get my foot in the door, I'd - you know, in those days it wasn't like today, where if you could lift a l"}
{"id": "1052705059", "date": "2021-11-05", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "British actor Terence Stamp reflects on London in the swinging '60s", "question_index": 11, "text": "So what did you do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It worked out. Yes, it worked out. I mean, it worked out for sort of 20 years. But eventually, you know, I had to sort of - and the thing was, I think looking back, it was something to do with a loss "}
{"id": "1052705059", "date": "2021-11-05", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "British actor Terence Stamp reflects on London in the swinging '60s", "question_index": 12, "text": "I want to play a scene from your movie \"The Limey.\" And this is a pretty recent film. And in this film, you play a working-class guy who's just gotten out of prison in England. And you've come to California to avenge the murder of your daughter. You think she was murdered by a record executive who made his fortune in the 1960s. He's played by Peter Fonda. Anyways, in this scene, you're talking to a Drug Enforcement Agency agent, who you think has some clues about where to find this record executive you're looking for. And you're talking to him in this really thick cockney accent. It's not the way you speak in the rest of the movie. It's just something you're putting on for him in this scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I just - I had always been interested in breath. One of the things that I'd learned at drama school was this thing called the full breath and speaking on support, you know, which we all had to l"}
{"id": "1052705059", "date": "2021-11-05", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "British actor Terence Stamp reflects on London in the swinging '60s", "question_index": 13, "text": "Terence Stamp in a scene from \"The Limey.\" Terence Stamp, did you ever talk that way", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Wilson) How you doing, then? All right, are you? Now, look, squire, you're the governor here. I can see that. I'm on your manor now. So there's no need to get your knickers in a twist. Whatever th"}
{"id": "1052705059", "date": "2021-11-05", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "British actor Terence Stamp reflects on London in the swinging '60s", "question_index": 14, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Wilson) How you doing, then? All right, are you? Now, look, squire, you're the governor here. I can see that. I'm on your manor now. So there's no need to get your knickers in a twist. Whatever th"}
{"id": "1052705059", "date": "2021-11-05", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "British actor Terence Stamp reflects on London in the swinging '60s", "question_index": 15, "text": "Now, were you starting to act in a time when it was becoming more acceptable, more possible, for working-class actors who didn't speak received English to - or received pronunciation, whatever it's called - to get started? You know, was it more acceptable to talk like you did and still be on the stage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I didn't really. Well, I may have. But when I was working on it - that was really how my dad spoke and how my uncle spoke. And strangely enough, in England, I got a lot of stick for that. You know"}
{"id": "1052705059", "date": "2021-11-05", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "British actor Terence Stamp reflects on London in the swinging '60s", "question_index": 16, "text": "And were you cast in any of those plays?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think more than more acceptable. It was actually something that was needed. Because what had happened in England was that they had passed a bill - a politician called Rab Butler had passed a bill - "}
{"id": "1052705059", "date": "2021-11-05", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "British actor Terence Stamp reflects on London in the swinging '60s", "question_index": 17, "text": "You started to become very well-known in the '60s. And in fact, you became kind of a symbol of London in the '60s. In Shawn Levy's new book about London in the '60s, he writes that you were among the swingingest of young Londoners - handsome, stylish and always up for some wild scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes, I was cast. The first play I ever did professionally was called \"Long And The Short And The Tall,\" which was a play by Keith Waterhouse and Willis Hall. And it had spawned a host of actors. "}
{"id": "1052705059", "date": "2021-11-05", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "British actor Terence Stamp reflects on London in the swinging '60s", "question_index": 18, "text": "What was it like to become known in the '60s when everything, from the class system to sexual mores, was loosening up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes, I was cast. The first play I ever did professionally was called \"Long And The Short And The Tall,\" which was a play by Keith Waterhouse and Willis Hall. And it had spawned a host of actors. "}
{"id": "1052705059", "date": "2021-11-05", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "British actor Terence Stamp reflects on London in the swinging '60s", "question_index": 19, "text": "Now, it's said that you and Julie Christie, who were a couple for a while, are the Terry and Julie in the Kinks' song \"Waterloo Sunset.\" Is that accurate?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it was the best time and place a boy could be, really. It was like after the pill and before AIDS, you know? So it was an extraordinary release. And I think that we felt it particularly "}
{"id": "1052705059", "date": "2021-11-05", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "British actor Terence Stamp reflects on London in the swinging '60s", "question_index": 20, "text": "We were talking about your voice and how you used to have a Cockney accent and how you learned to speak differently for four movies and theatre. I want to play a scene from your movie, Priscilla, \"Queen of the Desert.\" This is a 1994 Australian comedy in which you played a transsexual who has an act with two drag queens in which you lip sync and dance to disco hits. And in this scene, you're in the dressing room with the two drag queens. You're all putting on makeup. And this is shortly after you've fallen on your head in shock upon learning that one of the drag queens in your act not only used to be married, but he has a son.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's 2002 interview with British actor Terence Stamp. He can be seen in the new film \"Last Night In Soho,\" which is set"}
{"id": "1052705059", "date": "2021-11-05", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "British actor Terence Stamp reflects on London in the swinging '60s", "question_index": 21, "text": "That's Terence Stamp in a scene from \"Priscilla, Queen Of The Desert.\" Now, one of the things I find really interesting about your performance in that movie is that you didn't really change your voice. You changed the kind of language that you use and the way you'd speak, but you don't try to make your voice higher in it, even though you're playing a transsexual. Tell us why you didn't do that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Bernadette) Well, it better be."}
{"id": "1052705059", "date": "2021-11-05", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "British actor Terence Stamp reflects on London in the swinging '60s", "question_index": 22, "text": "And look at how, say, Lauren Bacall's voice deepened as she got older", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, during the, you know, during the time I was sort of researching the role, I was getting introduced to actual transsexuals, you know, guys who had actually been sort of - tried to change themselv"}
{"id": "1052705059", "date": "2021-11-05", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "British actor Terence Stamp reflects on London in the swinging '60s", "question_index": 23, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, during the, you know, during the time I was sort of researching the role, I was getting introduced to actual transsexuals, you know, guys who had actually been sort of - tried to change themselv"}
{"id": "1052705059", "date": "2021-11-05", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "British actor Terence Stamp reflects on London in the swinging '60s", "question_index": 24, "text": "What surprised you most by how you looked as a woman with a long blonde wig and makeup and, you know, women's clothes, heels?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, right."}
{"id": "1052705059", "date": "2021-11-05", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "British actor Terence Stamp reflects on London in the swinging '60s", "question_index": 25, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was rather, I have to say first out that, you know, when I saw the movie, I was, like, bitterly disappointed."}
{"id": "1052705059", "date": "2021-11-05", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "British actor Terence Stamp reflects on London in the swinging '60s", "question_index": 26, "text": "Because you wanted to look like a beautiful woman.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I have understood, I had been led to believe that, you know, the camera man was making me look like Lauren Bacall and Princess Diana and Candy Bergen, you know. And so I'd given - been given the p"}
{"id": "1052705059", "date": "2021-11-05", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "British actor Terence Stamp reflects on London in the swinging '60s", "question_index": 27, "text": "Did that work for you when you started to see it that way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I was real - that's what I was - exactly. I was choosing - earring, oh, I see Michelle Pfeiffer wear those. I can wear those, you know. I mean, I was like, I was really into it. And I said to St"}
{"id": "1052705059", "date": "2021-11-05", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "British actor Terence Stamp reflects on London in the swinging '60s", "question_index": 28, "text": "Now, Maureen Dowd had a New York Times Magazine article with you after \"Priscilla\" was released. And in that article, you say that you used to have this fear of looking stupid on screen and that that used to hold you back. But after \"Priscilla,\" you stopped worrying about that. Accurate?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, I always hated it. I always thought it was a lost opportunity to be a babe."}
{"id": "1052705059", "date": "2021-11-05", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "British actor Terence Stamp reflects on London in the swinging '60s", "question_index": 29, "text": "I want to say I might - that's basically what she says you said. And if I misrepresented what she said you said, I apologize for that. But I think she represented what you said very accurately. So can you put your finger on what you did differently after that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I hate to contradict the lovely Maureen Dowd. The way in which I - what I felt about that was that I didn't know that I had this fear of looking stupid. It was a kind of - I was tethered by it, "}
{"id": "1052705059", "date": "2021-11-05", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "British actor Terence Stamp reflects on London in the swinging '60s", "question_index": 30, "text": "Like what?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And in fact, as I was standing there, like, the thoughts that were going through my head were like, what are you doing here, you know? You're the best dressed man in Britain, you know. You're a middle"}
{"id": "1052705059", "date": "2021-11-05", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "British actor Terence Stamp reflects on London in the swinging '60s", "question_index": 31, "text": "You would have had a singing role in that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because I was frightened. I turned down \"Camelot\" with the wonderful Josh Logan, you know."}
{"id": "1052705059", "date": "2021-11-05", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "British actor Terence Stamp reflects on London in the swinging '60s", "question_index": 32, "text": "\"If Ever I Would Leave You\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I would have been the king, you know?"}
{"id": "1052705059", "date": "2021-11-05", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "British actor Terence Stamp reflects on London in the swinging '60s", "question_index": 33, "text": "that would have been Terence Stamp singing that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I would have been the king, you know?"}
{"id": "1052705059", "date": "2021-11-05", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "British actor Terence Stamp reflects on London in the swinging '60s", "question_index": 34, "text": "Well, you know, you haven't had the most prolific career. You've been making a fair number of movies lately, but there was a period in, I guess, the '70s and part of the '80s when you weren't doing that much and part of what you were doing was international productions. Was that a conscious choice?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2002 interview with British actor Terence Stamp. He's currently in the new film \"Last Night In Soho.\""}
{"id": "1052705059", "date": "2021-11-05", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "British actor Terence Stamp reflects on London in the swinging '60s", "question_index": 35, "text": "How would you describe the phase of your career you're in now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no, on the contrary. You know, the '60s ended and I ended with them. I was sort of out of work for 10 years, really. And, you know, that was like a tragedy for me, but it was just one of those"}
{"id": "1052705059", "date": "2021-11-05", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "British actor Terence Stamp reflects on London in the swinging '60s", "question_index": 36, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "How would I describe..."}
{"id": "1052705059", "date": "2021-11-05", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "British actor Terence Stamp reflects on London in the swinging '60s", "question_index": 37, "text": "I think one of your greatest performances - and this is my humble opinion - is in \"The Limey.\" I think you're just so wonderful in that film.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I think I'm a golden oldie now, you know. I think I'm an old master with wisdom and vestiges of sex appeal."}
{"id": "1052705059", "date": "2021-11-05", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "British actor Terence Stamp reflects on London in the swinging '60s", "question_index": 38, "text": "Well, Terence Stamp, a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's funny with \"The Limey\" because it was something that - it's to do, I think, with resignation, you know, when you resign yourself to the fact that, you know, you're never going to get another grea"}
{"id": "1055057907", "date": "2021-11-12", "guest": "Max Cleland", "title": "Remembering Max Cleland, former Georgia senator and Vietnam veteran", "question_index": 0, "text": "Max Cleland, welcome to FRESH AIR. Would you describe your memory of what happened when the grenade that injured you blew up?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. We're going to remember former Senator Max Cleland, a Vietnam War veteran and triple amputee who rebuilt his life after the war by dedicating hi"}
{"id": "1055057907", "date": "2021-11-12", "guest": "Max Cleland", "title": "Remembering Max Cleland, former Georgia senator and Vietnam veteran", "question_index": 1, "text": "You didn't know that the pin was out and that it was live.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had - it was April 8, '68. The sun was beginning to shine. The monsoons, I thought, were over. We were overlooking the Khe Sanh base. And the siege was broken that day by - our infantry battal"}
{"id": "1055057907", "date": "2021-11-12", "guest": "Max Cleland", "title": "Remembering Max Cleland, former Georgia senator and Vietnam veteran", "question_index": 2, "text": "You know now that the grenade that blew up was the grenade of a fellow soldier, but you went through years thinking that it was your grenade, that you dropped a grenade, that somehow the pin was out of your grenade and that you were responsible for blowing yourself up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no, no. No, no, no. And so boom. I looked down, and my right hand was gone, and the bone sticking out from the right. And then my right leg was gone. And my left leg was so badly shattered, it"}
{"id": "1055057907", "date": "2021-11-12", "guest": "Max Cleland", "title": "Remembering Max Cleland, former Georgia senator and Vietnam veteran", "question_index": 3, "text": "How did you find out that that wasn't the case?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1055057907", "date": "2021-11-12", "guest": "Max Cleland", "title": "Remembering Max Cleland, former Georgia senator and Vietnam veteran", "question_index": 4, "text": "So let's get to the existential crisis after this happened to you. You know, now you're - you have only 1 of 4 of your limbs left. And you have visions of, like, lying on the - on your back for the rest of your life. Your dream had always been to get into politics and to become a senator. Before going to Vietnam, you'd been an intern for a senator, so you'd been to the Oval Office. You'd been to the Senate, and that's the life you wanted. So you decided to run for office. You ran for the state Senate and won. What was it like to campaign when you were so physically compromised?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, by this time, I was in the U.S. Senate. And I had done a program, I think, for the History Channel on combat medics. And I talked about this experience about, you know, picking up the grenade, I"}
{"id": "1055057907", "date": "2021-11-12", "guest": "Max Cleland", "title": "Remembering Max Cleland, former Georgia senator and Vietnam veteran", "question_index": 5, "text": "And then when he was out of office, you were out of a job again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. You got that right. In my first campaign in 1970, virtually immediately after I got my limbs, ultimately, from the VA, as soon as I got home, I realized, you know, nobody was going to give m"}
{"id": "1055057907", "date": "2021-11-12", "guest": "Max Cleland", "title": "Remembering Max Cleland, former Georgia senator and Vietnam veteran", "question_index": 6, "text": "You were thinking of running for governor of Georgia. And early on in that - I'm not sure if you'd officially declared yet or not but...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. So back to Georgia, back living with my parents. This time I did not wear the limbs. I campaigned in my wheelchair. And I can tell you going up to somebody who has all their limbs and me shak"}
{"id": "1055057907", "date": "2021-11-12", "guest": "Max Cleland", "title": "Remembering Max Cleland, former Georgia senator and Vietnam veteran", "question_index": 7, "text": "You hadn't yet. OK. So you described this period as the first political dirty trick against you. I want you to describe the setup for that dirty trick. And it was dirty...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "1055057907", "date": "2021-11-12", "guest": "Max Cleland", "title": "Remembering Max Cleland, former Georgia senator and Vietnam veteran", "question_index": 8, "text": "It's dirty in both meanings of that word.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "1055057907", "date": "2021-11-12", "guest": "Max Cleland", "title": "Remembering Max Cleland, former Georgia senator and Vietnam veteran", "question_index": 9, "text": "They taped the phone sex conversation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And a young lady that I was having that phone sex with, you know, she, unbeknownst to me, was friends with two adult males who were Republican, and they wanted to trap me because they saw me as a th"}
{"id": "1055057907", "date": "2021-11-12", "guest": "Max Cleland", "title": "Remembering Max Cleland, former Georgia senator and Vietnam veteran", "question_index": 10, "text": "And they put her up to this, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, exactly."}
{"id": "1055057907", "date": "2021-11-12", "guest": "Max Cleland", "title": "Remembering Max Cleland, former Georgia senator and Vietnam veteran", "question_index": 11, "text": "You say something very funny about this incident. You say that made it impossible for you to run for governor. It was very embarrassing. But at the same time, it raised your political profile because everybody knew who you were after this. And it proved that despite your handicaps, it proved you were a full red-blooded American male who had not lost his sex life or the requisite machinery. The tape proved it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's correct. That's correct. And then to the newspaper and all that kind of stuff. So it knocked me out of running for governor. And that was - you know, that was the way it was. But that was the f"}
{"id": "1055057907", "date": "2021-11-12", "guest": "Max Cleland", "title": "Remembering Max Cleland, former Georgia senator and Vietnam veteran", "question_index": 12, "text": "Do you think that there were doubts about your requisite machinery that could have been a liability in an election?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1055057907", "date": "2021-11-12", "guest": "Max Cleland", "title": "Remembering Max Cleland, former Georgia senator and Vietnam veteran", "question_index": 13, "text": "Let's get to the campaign against you when you lost your Senate seat in 2002 in a campaign against the Republican Saxby Chambliss. There's a very now famous ad that he ran against you and that he pulled and revised a little bit and then put back on the air. Would you first describe the original ad?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR, and we're listening to Terry's 2009 interview with Vietnam veteran and former U.S. Senator Max Cleland. He died Tuesday at the age of 79."}
{"id": "1055057907", "date": "2021-11-12", "guest": "Max Cleland", "title": "Remembering Max Cleland, former Georgia senator and Vietnam veteran", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, because of protests against that ad, the ad was modified so that the - explain how the visual part of it was modified.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, keep in mind that I lost both legs and my right arm in Vietnam and that Senator Chambliss never went to Vietnam at all - matter of fact, got out by a number of deferments on a trick knee. So to "}
{"id": "1055057907", "date": "2021-11-12", "guest": "Max Cleland", "title": "Remembering Max Cleland, former Georgia senator and Vietnam veteran", "question_index": 15, "text": "Both Republicans.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The protest came from McCain and from Chuck Hagel..."}
{"id": "1055057907", "date": "2021-11-12", "guest": "Max Cleland", "title": "Remembering Max Cleland, former Georgia senator and Vietnam veteran", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, I should say in the modified ad, you were no longer visually...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Two Republicans, two Republican senators, my colleagues in the Senate and two fellow Vietnam veterans. And so supposedly, the ad was modified a little bit. But the point was made. The point, ultima"}
{"id": "1055057907", "date": "2021-11-12", "guest": "Max Cleland", "title": "Remembering Max Cleland, former Georgia senator and Vietnam veteran", "question_index": 17, "text": "What?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1055057907", "date": "2021-11-12", "guest": "Max Cleland", "title": "Remembering Max Cleland, former Georgia senator and Vietnam veteran", "question_index": 18, "text": "How many times was it showed, the original one, before it was modified?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the damage had already been done."}
{"id": "1055057907", "date": "2021-11-12", "guest": "Max Cleland", "title": "Remembering Max Cleland, former Georgia senator and Vietnam veteran", "question_index": 19, "text": "Now, you write that when you lost your Senate seat, your way of coping with life after Vietnam fell apart, that the pleasure of having a job worth doing and the money to keep you afloat were gone. You and your fiancee broke up, also, and it plunged you into this, like, terrible depression.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You can't not say that you're a liar. You know, you can't say, oops, I didn't mean that. So in so many ways, that shows what American politics has become. Bad campaigning results in bad governance."}
{"id": "1055057907", "date": "2021-11-12", "guest": "Max Cleland", "title": "Remembering Max Cleland, former Georgia senator and Vietnam veteran", "question_index": 20, "text": "Can you talk about what it was like to lose your job, to lose your sense of purpose? I mean, the only real jobs that you'd had, you know, after the military and after you lost three of your four limbs was elected office and then being...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1055057907", "date": "2021-11-12", "guest": "Max Cleland", "title": "Remembering Max Cleland, former Georgia senator and Vietnam veteran", "question_index": 21, "text": "...Appointed to the VA by President Carter. So I mean, your life had been politics.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's correct."}
{"id": "1055057907", "date": "2021-11-12", "guest": "Max Cleland", "title": "Remembering Max Cleland, former Georgia senator and Vietnam veteran", "question_index": 22, "text": "Do you feel like you've been able to make peace with yourself, peace with the fact that what happened happened, peace with the fact that your body is so compromised and that you can't have what average people with average bodies have. Have you been able to make peace with that, or does it still make you angry every day?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. And I had used politics and public service - and I am public service. That's what I do. I'd used that as my way of coping, of my way of fitting back in, of my way of finding my place in "}
{"id": "1055057907", "date": "2021-11-12", "guest": "Max Cleland", "title": "Remembering Max Cleland, former Georgia senator and Vietnam veteran", "question_index": 23, "text": "As the former head of the Veterans Administration under President Carter, do you feel like you get adequate veterans benefits now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have my anger. I have my deep anger. When I see people running laps up and down the street, I wish I could do that. I try to do my own little laps in my apartment on pillows and stuff. I wish I coul"}
{"id": "1055057907", "date": "2021-11-12", "guest": "Max Cleland", "title": "Remembering Max Cleland, former Georgia senator and Vietnam veteran", "question_index": 24, "text": "But do you think they're getting adequate benefits?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do. Now, the guys coming back and gals coming back - boy, who can replace what they have lost? Who can administer to their needs? They've seen war. They've been part of war. And we have a whole host"}
{"id": "1055057907", "date": "2021-11-12", "guest": "Max Cleland", "title": "Remembering Max Cleland, former Georgia senator and Vietnam veteran", "question_index": 25, "text": "...Or care.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's not so much a question of benefits as it is..."}
{"id": "1055057907", "date": "2021-11-12", "guest": "Max Cleland", "title": "Remembering Max Cleland, former Georgia senator and Vietnam veteran", "question_index": 26, "text": "Well, it sounds like when you ask yourself that question in terms of Vietnam, your answer is no, not really.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...The question - well, the question of, did what I do have any meaning and purpose for the America that I love? That's the question. And so they'll be spending the rest of their lives trying to estab"}
{"id": "1055787497", "date": "2021-11-15", "guest": "Dawn Turner", "title": "Memoir explores how racism and violence impacted 'Three Girls from Bronzeville'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. How did two sisters, just three years apart, take extremely divergent paths in life? That's the story my guest, Dawn Turner, tries to figure out in her new memoir. Turner is a journalist and novelist. For about 15 years, she wrote a column in the Chicago Tribune about race-related issues. Her sister, Kim, died at age 24 of what her death certificate attributed to chronic alcoholism. The memoir is also about Turner's childhood best friend, Debra, who was convicted of murder and spent years in prison. Turner's book also explores about how the neighborhood the three girls grew up in affected the course of their lives. They grew up in Bronzeville, the Chicago neighborhood which Turner describes as the narrow strip of land where the city forced the influx of new Black residents to live during the Great Migration. She says it was the place officials abandoned and neglected, allowing burned-out stores to stand, alleys to fill with mud and mountains of trash to accumulate. For years, it had been the place where the Black elite - politicians, lawyers, doctors and professors - lived along with factory workers, domestic workers, street vendors, sex workers and drug dealers. Dawn Turner was part of the fourth generation of her family to live in Bronzeville, and she watched as her neighborhood became transformed by violence and crack. Her new memoir is called \"Three Girls From Bronzeville.\" Dawn Turner, welcome to FRESH AIR. Since Bronzeville itself is such a big part of the story, let's start there. Would you describe where you lived and what the neighborhood was like when you were growing up?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1055787497", "date": "2021-11-15", "guest": "Dawn Turner", "title": "Memoir explores how racism and violence impacted 'Three Girls from Bronzeville'", "question_index": 1, "text": "So describe the building where you grew up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. And thank you so very much for having me on. My great-grandparents arrived in Chicago with my grandmother in 1916 as part of the first wave of the Great Migration. They were fleeing the ra"}
{"id": "1055787497", "date": "2021-11-15", "guest": "Dawn Turner", "title": "Memoir explores how racism and violence impacted 'Three Girls from Bronzeville'", "question_index": 2, "text": "And these were three 24-story-high concrete and steel high-rises.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, we grew up in the Theodore K. Lawless apartment complex. And it was a privately owned complex that was designed by a Black dermatologist, Dr. Lawless. They were - there were three towers in a ro"}
{"id": "1055787497", "date": "2021-11-15", "guest": "Dawn Turner", "title": "Memoir explores how racism and violence impacted 'Three Girls from Bronzeville'", "question_index": 3, "text": "So before you moved into Lawless, the complex that you just described, you were living in a small home that you rented. But your father supplemented the rent money with racetrack earnings, which was not a consistent or reliable way of paying the rent. So when you couldn't afford the rent, the family moved into a hotel for a few months, crowded together. And then after that is when the family moved to Lawless, the building that you were just describing. Your parents hadn't been getting along. And when your mother basically threw out your father, your sister, Kim, had already been born. She was three years younger than you. And you write about how you were both close, but you were really different. Of course, like a lot of people, you didn't want your little sister tagging around with you all the time. But you both, from a pretty early age, dealt with risk pretty differently. Can you describe some of those differences?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1055787497", "date": "2021-11-15", "guest": "Dawn Turner", "title": "Memoir explores how racism and violence impacted 'Three Girls from Bronzeville'", "question_index": 4, "text": "You didn't want to be punished?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", she was a mystery to me. She was headstrong, fearless and willful in a way that I wasn't. And it wasn't that I was perfect at all, but she would challenge my mom during family get-togethers. After d"}
{"id": "1055787497", "date": "2021-11-15", "guest": "Dawn Turner", "title": "Memoir explores how racism and violence impacted 'Three Girls from Bronzeville'", "question_index": 5, "text": "But it sounds like your sister felt like whatever punishment she has to get, that'll blow over, and then she could just keep doing what she wanted to do.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't want to be punished. But I think there was something about my parents breaking up early that, I mean, put me - I felt a greater sense of responsibility. And I didn't want to be punished, but "}
{"id": "1055787497", "date": "2021-11-15", "guest": "Dawn Turner", "title": "Memoir explores how racism and violence impacted 'Three Girls from Bronzeville'", "question_index": 6, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Dawn Turner. Her new memoir is called \"Three Girls From Bronzeville.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she definitely felt that punishments had a shelf life and that once it was over, that she was just on to the next thing. She was not - it wasn't like she was this bad person, but she just - she "}
{"id": "1055787497", "date": "2021-11-15", "guest": "Dawn Turner", "title": "Memoir explores how racism and violence impacted 'Three Girls from Bronzeville'", "question_index": 7, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Dawn Turner. Her new memoir, \"Three Girls From Bronzeville,\" is about how her path and the paths of her sister and childhood best friend diverged. Her sister Kim died at age 24 of chronic alcoholism. Her childhood best friend Debra was convicted of murder. Now let's talk about your best friend from childhood, Debra. Debra's idea of risk was different from yours, too. Tell the story about how she jumped off a 12-foot ledge and wanted you to jump, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she definitely felt that punishments had a shelf life and that once it was over, that she was just on to the next thing. She was not - it wasn't like she was this bad person, but she just - she "}
{"id": "1055787497", "date": "2021-11-15", "guest": "Dawn Turner", "title": "Memoir explores how racism and violence impacted 'Three Girls from Bronzeville'", "question_index": 8, "text": "They were afraid she was getting into too much trouble in Bronzeville.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I felt very comfortable sitting up there with her. We would sometimes even lie down and stare up at the overhang of trees or at the sky. But there was one day when she wanted to jump, and that came ou"}
{"id": "1055787497", "date": "2021-11-15", "guest": "Dawn Turner", "title": "Memoir explores how racism and violence impacted 'Three Girls from Bronzeville'", "question_index": 9, "text": "You write that Debra and her friends scared you. Tell us more about that and how you dealt with it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And her father wanted to - you know, wanted to protect her. But it was also an opportunity for them to partake of the American dream, part of which is homeownership. They were going to live in a "}
{"id": "1055787497", "date": "2021-11-15", "guest": "Dawn Turner", "title": "Memoir explores how racism and violence impacted 'Three Girls from Bronzeville'", "question_index": 10, "text": "And when did your sister Kim start getting into serious trouble?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There were - I had my own set of marching orders in my head, my own goals, in terms of what I wanted my future to look like. My teachers were increasingly telling me that I was really smart. I had ama"}
{"id": "1055787497", "date": "2021-11-15", "guest": "Dawn Turner", "title": "Memoir explores how racism and violence impacted 'Three Girls from Bronzeville'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Yeah, she intercepted a lot of the letters from school and hid them from your mother...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I start to think about what - the animating question of the book was, when did we lose them? And so that time for both Debra and Kim was right around adolescence. And that was when she started sk"}
{"id": "1055787497", "date": "2021-11-15", "guest": "Dawn Turner", "title": "Memoir explores how racism and violence impacted 'Three Girls from Bronzeville'", "question_index": 12, "text": "...And intercepted the phone calls, too. So where was she going instead of school?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1055787497", "date": "2021-11-15", "guest": "Dawn Turner", "title": "Memoir explores how racism and violence impacted 'Three Girls from Bronzeville'", "question_index": 13, "text": "You said that you felt like adolescence was a turning point both for your sister, Kim, and your childhood best friend, Debra. So once you saw that they were, like, going off the track and getting into trouble, what did you or your mother feel like you were capable of doing to try to help them stay out of trouble? 'Cause we're talking about serious trouble.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, as I said, I wouldn't learn this until years later, but there were days when she would just hide under the bed. So she would close the front door, and maybe my mother was getting ready for work "}
{"id": "1055787497", "date": "2021-11-15", "guest": "Dawn Turner", "title": "Memoir explores how racism and violence impacted 'Three Girls from Bronzeville'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Your sister got pregnant. And you and your mother wanted to talk her out of carrying to term, into getting an abortion. But she really wanted to have that baby. And you were hoping that this would be, you know, a good narrative for her 'cause she thought having - you know, that becoming a mother would really help her a lot and that it would - like, she wanted something to help put her back on track. And you were hoping that she was right about that. But her baby was born quite suddenly and quite prematurely and didn't survive. And Kim was just crushed after that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Initially, my parents didn't understand what was going on. And then when they found out that my sister was not going to school, they were able to come together and work together for various solutions."}
{"id": "1055787497", "date": "2021-11-15", "guest": "Dawn Turner", "title": "Memoir explores how racism and violence impacted 'Three Girls from Bronzeville'", "question_index": 15, "text": "And that's when she started drinking heavily. You were, I think, still in college at the time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1055787497", "date": "2021-11-15", "guest": "Dawn Turner", "title": "Memoir explores how racism and violence impacted 'Three Girls from Bronzeville'", "question_index": 16, "text": "How aware were you of what was going on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1055787497", "date": "2021-11-15", "guest": "Dawn Turner", "title": "Memoir explores how racism and violence impacted 'Three Girls from Bronzeville'", "question_index": 17, "text": "So - but she kept drinking, and she died of what her death certificate described as chronic alcoholism. You and your mother must have been devastated.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When the baby came too soon and didn't survive, she was devastated. And we did not understand the level of devastation there. We thought - I thought that she would grieve and that - she would grieve, "}
{"id": "1055787497", "date": "2021-11-15", "guest": "Dawn Turner", "title": "Memoir explores how racism and violence impacted 'Three Girls from Bronzeville'", "question_index": 18, "text": "I know it's years later, but I'm sorry for your sister's death. I know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, we were. We were devastated. The whole family was - my father. We - my sister's death was the first time that I had experienced someone die so close to me. And I - the grief felt profound. My moth"}
{"id": "1055787497", "date": "2021-11-15", "guest": "Dawn Turner", "title": "Memoir explores how racism and violence impacted 'Three Girls from Bronzeville'", "question_index": 19, "text": "...You're probably still traumatized by it in some way, something that will never go away. Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Dawn Turner. Her new memoir is called \"Three Girls From Bronzeville.\" We'll take a short break, and then we'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you."}
{"id": "1055787497", "date": "2021-11-15", "guest": "Dawn Turner", "title": "Memoir explores how racism and violence impacted 'Three Girls from Bronzeville'", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Dawn Turner. Her new memoir \"Three Girls From Bronzeville\" is about how her path and the paths of her sister and childhood best friend diverged. Her sister Kim died at age 24 of chronic alcoholism. Her child best friend Debra was convicted of murder. They grew up in Bronzeville, the Chicago neighborhood which Turner describes as the narrow strip of land where the city forced the influx of new Black residents to live, people who had come to Chicago during the Great Migration. So Debra, your childhood best friend, her path diverged from yours. You went to college. She became a topless dancer. That disturbed you. Why did you find that disturbing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you."}
{"id": "1055787497", "date": "2021-11-15", "guest": "Dawn Turner", "title": "Memoir explores how racism and violence impacted 'Three Girls from Bronzeville'", "question_index": 21, "text": "So Debra, your childhood best friend, eventually started doing a lot of crack and eventually also was convicted of murder. Would you tell us her version of the story? And I say her version of the story because the person who was killed is not around to tell his perspective.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Terry, one of the things I think that's really important is that our parents had amazing expectations for us. We were going to go to college. We were going to have great-paying jobs, and we were"}
{"id": "1055787497", "date": "2021-11-15", "guest": "Dawn Turner", "title": "Memoir explores how racism and violence impacted 'Three Girls from Bronzeville'", "question_index": 22, "text": "So she was convicted of murder. You visited her in prison. That was your first time ever setting foot in a prison. What was it like to see your childhood best friend in prison?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Debra said that she first started doing crack right after her father died. Although she had been told how addictive it was, Debra did not believe that she would fall prey to it. And she did. And it be"}
{"id": "1055787497", "date": "2021-11-15", "guest": "Dawn Turner", "title": "Memoir explores how racism and violence impacted 'Three Girls from Bronzeville'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Do you think prison was actually helping her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had always loved seeing her, and this was my first time seeing her in this setting. And I just - it was overwhelming. And when I actually saw her, we met in the visitor's center, and I was shocked w"}
{"id": "1055787497", "date": "2021-11-15", "guest": "Dawn Turner", "title": "Memoir explores how racism and violence impacted 'Three Girls from Bronzeville'", "question_index": 24, "text": "And she had you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, one of the things that happens in this country is that prison is often a place of - it tends to warehouse people more than it rehabilitates them. And for her, her experience was absolutely h"}
{"id": "1055787497", "date": "2021-11-15", "guest": "Dawn Turner", "title": "Memoir explores how racism and violence impacted 'Three Girls from Bronzeville'", "question_index": 25, "text": "You wrote about Debra, about her conviction. And then you got a letter from the widow of the person who she killed because she - he had been married at the time. He was the father of two. And his widow wrote, I don't care that she's the person you grew up with. The person described in your newspaper story is not the person I saw in the courtroom. She's a murderer, an evil woman who left a man to die in the street. How dare you uplift her? Because of her, I don't have a husband. And my children don't have their father. What was your reaction when you read that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, she had me. She will always have me."}
{"id": "1055787497", "date": "2021-11-15", "guest": "Dawn Turner", "title": "Memoir explores how racism and violence impacted 'Three Girls from Bronzeville'", "question_index": 26, "text": "There was, eventually, a reconciliation meeting between Terri Jones, the widow of the person who your best friend had murdered, and your friend. You were there for it. You were going to write about it. Who set up this reconciliation meeting? How did that come about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it was hard to read that. And that letter was written after - so that was the third time that I had written about Debra. And that story was about her graduating from college while she was in priso"}
{"id": "1055787497", "date": "2021-11-15", "guest": "Dawn Turner", "title": "Memoir explores how racism and violence impacted 'Three Girls from Bronzeville'", "question_index": 27, "text": "How many years did Debra serve in prison? And what can you tell her - what can you tell us about her life now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terri and - Terri Jones and her daughter, Whitney Jones - Whitney Jones wrote Debra in prison to ask for the meeting. And Debra went to the warden. And the warden approved it. And Debra asked to have "}
{"id": "1055787497", "date": "2021-11-15", "guest": "Dawn Turner", "title": "Memoir explores how racism and violence impacted 'Three Girls from Bronzeville'", "question_index": 28, "text": "You picked her up from prison?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was in prison for 21 years. She was sentenced to 50. And so going in, she was - she knew she was staring down 25 years. But she had four years taken off because of just various time cuts, you know"}
{"id": "1055787497", "date": "2021-11-15", "guest": "Dawn Turner", "title": "Memoir explores how racism and violence impacted 'Three Girls from Bronzeville'", "question_index": 29, "text": "Well, let's take another break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Dawn Turner. Her new memoir is called \"Three Girls From Bronzeville.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I picked her up along with her sister and her aunt. And I drove - I rented a van. And we drove to get her and her belongings. And she could have left the next day. But I picked her up at midnight"}
{"id": "1055787497", "date": "2021-11-15", "guest": "Dawn Turner", "title": "Memoir explores how racism and violence impacted 'Three Girls from Bronzeville'", "question_index": 30, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Dawn Turner. Her new memoir, \"Three Girls From Bronzeville,\" is about how her path and the paths of her sister and childhood best friend diverged. Her sister, Kim, died at age 24 of chronic alcoholism. Her childhood best friend, Debra, was convicted of murder. There were men in your life growing up who were not exactly positive role models. But you found men who were and who became, if not surrogate fathers, they became, you know, male role models who were really helpful to you. Who were some of those men?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I picked her up along with her sister and her aunt. And I drove - I rented a van. And we drove to get her and her belongings. And she could have left the next day. But I picked her up at midnight"}
{"id": "1055787497", "date": "2021-11-15", "guest": "Dawn Turner", "title": "Memoir explores how racism and violence impacted 'Three Girls from Bronzeville'", "question_index": 31, "text": "And the books he brought home were books by important Black authors about Black consciousness.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. My future father-in-law was amazing. He was - I mean, their family was solidly middle class, if not upper middle class. And he had - he knew how - when I was asked to leave the university after m"}
{"id": "1055787497", "date": "2021-11-15", "guest": "Dawn Turner", "title": "Memoir explores how racism and violence impacted 'Three Girls from Bronzeville'", "question_index": 32, "text": "Do you feel like you understand the outcome of Debra and Kim's lives any better having done all this research, having written the book, having interviewed so many people who knew them? Do you have an understanding you didn't have before?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yeah - Carter G. Woodson, Richard Wright - I mean, Gwendolyn Brooks - I mean, all of these books who were, yeah, yeah. They changed my thinking of who I was."}
{"id": "1055787497", "date": "2021-11-15", "guest": "Dawn Turner", "title": "Memoir explores how racism and violence impacted 'Three Girls from Bronzeville'", "question_index": 33, "text": "What emotions do you have when you return to your old neighborhood?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I always felt like, there but for the grace of God, go I. And I know that that's a little - that statement is a little fraught for some people. But I do believe that there is such a razor-thin margin "}
{"id": "1055787497", "date": "2021-11-15", "guest": "Dawn Turner", "title": "Memoir explores how racism and violence impacted 'Three Girls from Bronzeville'", "question_index": 34, "text": "So when you look back on your childhood, knowing what happened to your sister and your best friend, how do you think of your childhood? Do you think of yourself as having had a good childhood, a happy childhood?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, gosh. I mean, it's - like, I think most of us feel that - I mean, that sense of nostalgia and memory. And there is this - I mean, there is this sense of joy in that this is where we started. But t"}
{"id": "1055787497", "date": "2021-11-15", "guest": "Dawn Turner", "title": "Memoir explores how racism and violence impacted 'Three Girls from Bronzeville'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Dawn Turner, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. We were allowed to be kids. I mean, that's not something that is afforded a lot of children who live in beleaguered communities. I mean, we were allowed to grow up in a beautiful space and roam a"}
{"id": "1055787497", "date": "2021-11-15", "guest": "Dawn Turner", "title": "Memoir explores how racism and violence impacted 'Three Girls from Bronzeville'", "question_index": 36, "text": "Dawn Turner's new memoir is called \"Three Girls From Bronzeville.\" After we take a short break, Justin Chang will review \"Belfast,\" Kenneth Branagh's semi-autobiographical film about growing up in Northern Ireland during the Troubles. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you. Thank you for having me."}
{"id": "1056820585", "date": "2021-11-18", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "'Twilight of Democracy' author says the autocrats are winning", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, journalist Anne Applebaum, has devoted years to writing about authoritarianism and for the past few years has been warning about its growth in Europe and the U.S. Her article, \"The Autocrats Are Winning,\" is the cover story of the new issue of The Atlantic, where she's a staff writer. One focus of that article is Belarus, which she thinks represents a new form of authoritarianism and illustrates new ways in which authoritarian countries are helping each other in ways that will help each of those authoritarian rulers preserve their individual power and wealth. She just returned from the polar side of the Belarus border, where she says Belarus has weaponized human desperation. Belarus lured people from Iraq, Afghanistan and Syria who were seeking asylum. But once they spent a small fortune and endured a long, grueling trip, Belarus security forced them, often at gunpoint, to the Polish border and made them try to cross over. Anne Applebaum's latest book is called \"Twilight Of Democracy: The Seductive Lure Of Authoritarianism.\" Anne Applebaum, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Why has Belarus lured migrants to that country and then tried to force them across the border to Lithuania, to Poland? What's the point?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1056820585", "date": "2021-11-18", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "'Twilight of Democracy' author says the autocrats are winning", "question_index": 1, "text": "So you were just at the border of Belarus and Poland to witness what was going on there. And I think it was, like, shortly after you left that Belarus decided to start offering shelter to the migrants at the border, trying to look like, hey, Belarus is the good guys. But when you were there - tell us what you witnessed, what families who were trapped at the border were going through.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Last summer, the dictator of Belarus, Alexander Lukashenko, lost an election. But instead of losing - instead of giving up power, he arrested his opposition. He forced the main opposition leader outsi"}
{"id": "1056820585", "date": "2021-11-18", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "'Twilight of Democracy' author says the autocrats are winning", "question_index": 2, "text": "So what did Belarus was do to get this package to travel agents to try to convince migrants to come to Belarus?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had an opportunity to speak to a Kurdish family who had made it through the border, the wire of the border. The border fence had been cut for them by a Belarusian guard. And they had started walking"}
{"id": "1056820585", "date": "2021-11-18", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "'Twilight of Democracy' author says the autocrats are winning", "question_index": 3, "text": "One of the really just bizarre developments that you report is from the polar side. The Polish interior minister and the defense minister appeared together on the taxpayer-funded, state TV channel news and played a clip of a man having sex with a horse. What did they tell viewers this clip was? And what was it really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So as I said, this is the weaponization of desperation. I mean, these are people from Iraqi Kurdistan. They're from Syrian refugee camps. I saw a very good interview that was done by a group of Polish"}
{"id": "1056820585", "date": "2021-11-18", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "'Twilight of Democracy' author says the autocrats are winning", "question_index": 4, "text": "I want to get back to this video of a man having sex with a horse 'cause I think it shows the lengths the Polish government is willing to go to in terms of disinformation to scare the public.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So this is part of the context for the other half of the story, which is the way in which the current Polish government, which is a populist, would-be autocratic government, has tried to use this situ"}
{"id": "1056820585", "date": "2021-11-18", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "'Twilight of Democracy' author says the autocrats are winning", "question_index": 5, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Anne Applebaum. And her new cover story in The Atlantic is called \"The Autocrats Are Winning.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What they claimed was that the video was found on a telephone that was found in the forest. And then later they modified that to say it was found on a SIM card, you know, a information card on a phone"}
{"id": "1056820585", "date": "2021-11-18", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "'Twilight of Democracy' author says the autocrats are winning", "question_index": 6, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Anne Applebaum. She's a staff writer at The Atlantic, and she writes extensively about authoritarianism. Her new article, which is the cover story of the new issue of The Atlantic, is called \"The Autocrats Are Winning,\" and it focuses in part on Belarus. So, you know, you've said that Belarus wants to destabilize the European Union, and that's what this whole immigrant crisis is about. Why does Belarus want to destabilize the European Union?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What they claimed was that the video was found on a telephone that was found in the forest. And then later they modified that to say it was found on a SIM card, you know, a information card on a phone"}
{"id": "1056820585", "date": "2021-11-18", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "'Twilight of Democracy' author says the autocrats are winning", "question_index": 7, "text": "So, you know, Lukashenko, the authoritarian ruler of Belarus, has his motives for creating this migrant crisis and forcing migrants into Poland. But do you think it's backfiring? I mean, this is getting a lot of media attention. And is Belarus seeing sanctions against the country now? Is this going to - do you think this might ultimately hurt Lukashenko?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Belarus wants to destabilize the European Union because the European Union represents a set of alternative values. It represents the rule of law. It represents respect for human rights. It represents "}
{"id": "1056820585", "date": "2021-11-18", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "'Twilight of Democracy' author says the autocrats are winning", "question_index": 8, "text": "Your article is about, like, a new form of authoritarian government, as exemplified in part by Belarus. Compare the image you think people have of what an authoritarian leader is compared to the new authoritarian leader that you write about.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's very hard for me to predict how this will play out. You know, Lukashenko is seeking to use this crisis to build up his support at home. And, of course, we have no evidence whether that's successf"}
{"id": "1056820585", "date": "2021-11-18", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "'Twilight of Democracy' author says the autocrats are winning", "question_index": 9, "text": "So how does supporting Lukashenko, the ruler of Belarus - how does that help Russia or Iran or China or Cuba?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think all of us have in our minds a kind of stereotype of what an autocracy is. You know, there's a kind of bad guy at the top. He has police who work for him. There is a surveillance system. Maybe "}
{"id": "1056820585", "date": "2021-11-18", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "'Twilight of Democracy' author says the autocrats are winning", "question_index": 10, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Anne Applebaum, who's written extensively about authoritarianism. Her new cover story in The Atlantic, where she's a staff writer, is titled \"The Autocrats Are Winning.\" We'll be right back after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All of these countries have the same set of interests. They're all fighting against the same kinds of opposition. So they're all fighting against people who would like the rule of law, who would like "}
{"id": "1056820585", "date": "2021-11-18", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "'Twilight of Democracy' author says the autocrats are winning", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with journalist Anne Applebaum. She's devoted years to writing about authoritarianism and for the past few years has been warning about its growth in Europe and the U.S. Her latest article, which is the cover story of the new issue of The Atlantic, is called \"The Autocrats Are Winning.\" Her latest book is called \"Twilight Of Democracy: The Seductive Lure Of Authoritarianism.\" Belarus had an election in August of 2020. Lukashenko claimed that he won 80% of the vote, which you say nobody believed. And you think, and I think most people in Belarus think it's the opposition candidate who won. Her husband is a political dissident who is in prison. She fled the country. So after the election, Lukashenko turned off the Internet, treated mass demonstrations against his regime with brutality. Then, you say, Russia stepped in with a more sophisticated approach to repressing the population. So what was the difference between, like, holding down dissidents and opposition after Russia stepped in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All of these countries have the same set of interests. They're all fighting against the same kinds of opposition. So they're all fighting against people who would like the rule of law, who would like "}
{"id": "1056820585", "date": "2021-11-18", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "'Twilight of Democracy' author says the autocrats are winning", "question_index": 12, "text": "Yeah. I think Russia offered to buy goods from Belarus to get around sanctions. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Russians brought in more sophisticated police. They brought in more sophisticated surveillance technology. They also shared their own experience with the Belarusians, which is that it's better to "}
{"id": "1056820585", "date": "2021-11-18", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "'Twilight of Democracy' author says the autocrats are winning", "question_index": 13, "text": "So is that another reason why authoritarian governments are forming alliances with each other, so that they could have their whole - their own, like, economic network and support each other economically when there are sanctions against them from Europe and the U.S.?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There are - so there are stories that the Russians now export cigarettes. It's one of the things that they make. They export them to Russia, where they're repackaged and sold as Russian instead of Bel"}
{"id": "1056820585", "date": "2021-11-18", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "'Twilight of Democracy' author says the autocrats are winning", "question_index": 14, "text": "So what do you think this new authoritarianism, where authoritarian governments are cooperating with each other, forming their own financial networks - what are the implications of that for democracies like the European Union, like the U.S.?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Helping one another evade sanctions is one of the primary activities, I would say, of the new autocratic network. Another very good example of how that works is in Venezuela. Venezuela is another"}
{"id": "1056820585", "date": "2021-11-18", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "'Twilight of Democracy' author says the autocrats are winning", "question_index": 15, "text": "Yeah. You write that many American corporations are caught in personal, financial and business links to China, Russia and other autocracies. What kind of links are you talking about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One of the implications of this new autocratic network is that many of the old tools that we have used to push back against autocracy are no longer working. Sanctions do have an impact. They're very i"}
{"id": "1056820585", "date": "2021-11-18", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "'Twilight of Democracy' author says the autocrats are winning", "question_index": 16, "text": "If the old sanctions don't work anymore, in part because there's this whole, alternate, authoritarian financial network in which they support each other, are there models for new ways to deal with authoritarian governments?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, some of them are obvious. I mean, you know, most large American companies do business in China. And therefore, when an issue comes up - for example, another subject I wrote about in the piece wh"}
{"id": "1056820585", "date": "2021-11-18", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "'Twilight of Democracy' author says the autocrats are winning", "question_index": 17, "text": "Let's take another short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Anne Applebaum. And her latest article in The Atlantic is called \"The Autocrats Are Winning.\" It's the cover story of the new issue. She's a staff writer there. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think we need to rethink the nature of democratic institutions. You know, the ones that we have - the international institutions that we have were built a long time ago for a very different kind of "}
{"id": "1056820585", "date": "2021-11-18", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "'Twilight of Democracy' author says the autocrats are winning", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Anne Applebaum. She's a staff writer at The Atlantic, and she writes extensively about authoritarianism. Her latest book is called \"Twilight Of Democracy: The Seductive Lure Of Authoritarianism.\" Your new article is called \"The Autocrats Are Winning.\" What do you mean by that, that they're winning?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think we need to rethink the nature of democratic institutions. You know, the ones that we have - the international institutions that we have were built a long time ago for a very different kind of "}
{"id": "1056820585", "date": "2021-11-18", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "'Twilight of Democracy' author says the autocrats are winning", "question_index": 19, "text": "During the Trump presidency, Trump seemed to favor some authoritarian rulers - the Saudis, Kim Jong Un, Vladimir Putin. What do you think the lasting impact is now of the Trump presidency, which many people saw as heading toward authoritarianism?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean that they are working together successfully, that they are helping one another stay in power and that they are successfully undermining our rules and our ideals. You know, they don't just ignor"}
{"id": "1056820585", "date": "2021-11-18", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "'Twilight of Democracy' author says the autocrats are winning", "question_index": 20, "text": "I'm wondering if you see the stop the steal movement in the U.S. as connecting with the larger pattern of authoritarianism that you're seeing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Trump presidency undermined maybe forever, but certainly for the moment, undermined the image of the United States as the country that stands for democratic ideals and democratic practices around "}
{"id": "1056820585", "date": "2021-11-18", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "'Twilight of Democracy' author says the autocrats are winning", "question_index": 21, "text": "You're speaking to us from London. But you divide your time between London and Poland. Your husband is a representative in the European Parliament from the Polish opposition party. We're talking about authoritarianism. But what kind of direct impact has that had on your life, both because of your husband's role in the opposition party of Poland, but also because of your journalism?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "or Chinese funding in order to make it work. It seems to have plenty of American funding all by itself. But you can see it as part of a pattern around the world, where inside many democracies - includ"}
{"id": "1056820585", "date": "2021-11-18", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "'Twilight of Democracy' author says the autocrats are winning", "question_index": 22, "text": "I'm glad you are focused on it 'cause you've been doing such good reporting and analysis. Thank you so much for returning to our show. It's always a pleasure to have you on our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So to be clear, Poland is still a democracy. We still have some independent media. But we are living in a society where we - there is a ruling party that has pushed away at the institutions of democra"}
{"id": "1056820585", "date": "2021-11-18", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "'Twilight of Democracy' author says the autocrats are winning", "question_index": 23, "text": "Anne Applebaum's article \"The Autocrats Are Winning\" is the cover story of the new issue of The Atlantic. Her latest book is called \"Twilight Of Democracy: The Seductive Lure Of Authoritarianism.\" After we take a short break, John Powers will review the new comedy series \"Sort Of,\" about a genderqueer Toronto millennial of Pakistani heritage. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you so much for having me."}
{"id": "1056895288", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Twyla Tharp", "title": "Neither the pandemic nor age can keep choreographer Twyla Tharp from her work", "question_index": 0, "text": "Twyla Tharp, welcome to FRESH AIR. It is a pleasure to have you. The documentary is amazing, as is your dancing and choreography. So thank you for being with us.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University in New Jersey, sitting in for Terry Gross. Today, our interview with Twyla Tharp, one of the most celebrated"}
{"id": "1056895288", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Twyla Tharp", "title": "Neither the pandemic nor age can keep choreographer Twyla Tharp from her work", "question_index": 1, "text": "So, you know, your dances draw on all forms of dancing. And you studied - when you were a child, you studied ballet. You studied modern dance. I think you took tap lessons. What really inspired you when you were young? What kind of dance did you love the most?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much."}
{"id": "1056895288", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Twyla Tharp", "title": "Neither the pandemic nor age can keep choreographer Twyla Tharp from her work", "question_index": 2, "text": "When you started dancing, you didn't have a stage. You weren't getting paid. So you and the dancers you worked with danced in the world instead of in a theater. What are some of the public places that you danced in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it wasn't simply dancing. And actually, I started with music training, both in piano and violin and percussion. And the dancing came after the fact. But on the other hand, my mother was a concer"}
{"id": "1056895288", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Twyla Tharp", "title": "Neither the pandemic nor age can keep choreographer Twyla Tharp from her work", "question_index": 3, "text": "You say something in the film about this that I thought was really interesting. You said, in the park - when you're dancing in the park, you're injecting yourself into their reality, the reality of the other people in the park. We're just an element in the park, like a bicycle. It's not theatrical, like in a theater, where there's performers on stage and audience in the seats. We merged. So that was great for you. That was an interesting experience for you and I'm sure for the people in the park, too. But I'm also wondering, did people always enjoy having you and the dancers there, or were you sometimes seen as an intrusion?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, Lord. OK, well, the first concert was in a university. It was in the art department. It was in an exhibition space. We danced, as is in the film, on a rooftop that we managed to find somewhere. We"}
{"id": "1056895288", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Twyla Tharp", "title": "Neither the pandemic nor age can keep choreographer Twyla Tharp from her work", "question_index": 4, "text": "And did that change the kind of dance you wanted to do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that is absolutely correct. We were seen as an intrusion. And we functioned in this way for five or six years, and one of the reasons we stopped doing it was because we stopped feeling - at a cer"}
{"id": "1056895288", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Twyla Tharp", "title": "Neither the pandemic nor age can keep choreographer Twyla Tharp from her work", "question_index": 5, "text": "Early on, when you were just, like, finding who you were as a choreographer and dancer, what were some of the steps or styles that you were experimenting with to figure out what you could do that was different from what other people were doing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, not necessarily wanted, but had to, yes, because once you're a spectator sport, as opposed to interjected within the activity, you do work differently. I mean, you have to - in a sense, you have"}
{"id": "1056895288", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Twyla Tharp", "title": "Neither the pandemic nor age can keep choreographer Twyla Tharp from her work", "question_index": 6, "text": "One of the things you're famous for is using all forms of music - Haydn, Philip Glass, Billy Joel, Sinatra, The Beach Boys. But when you started dancing, you sometimes didn't use music at all.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the first thing was to eliminate the idea of steps or styles. It was to get to fundamentals of movement. And we were looking for very common, shared modes of movement that ordinary - by ordina"}
{"id": "1056895288", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Twyla Tharp", "title": "Neither the pandemic nor age can keep choreographer Twyla Tharp from her work", "question_index": 7, "text": "Was that also about getting down to the very fundamentals of music - I mean, of movement", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1056895288", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Twyla Tharp", "title": "Neither the pandemic nor age can keep choreographer Twyla Tharp from her work", "question_index": 8, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1056895288", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Twyla Tharp", "title": "Neither the pandemic nor age can keep choreographer Twyla Tharp from her work", "question_index": 9, "text": "So one of your breakthrough pieces for the Joffrey Ballet was \"Deuce Coupe,\" which you used the Beach Boys record \"Little Deuce Coupe.\" What made you think that that would be the right song to use for your dance?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. No, no, no, no. Thank you for confusing the two. That's very appropriate. Well, as I said, when I was a child, I was trained in a number of musical - I played in string quartets. I played in ban"}
{"id": "1056895288", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Twyla Tharp", "title": "Neither the pandemic nor age can keep choreographer Twyla Tharp from her work", "question_index": 10, "text": "And was that a song that you felt especially strongly about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I started working with early American jazz. I started working with Jelly Roll Morton, Bix Beiderbecke. And those were the pieces that just preceded Joffrey asking me to write a ballet for his company."}
{"id": "1056895288", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Twyla Tharp", "title": "Neither the pandemic nor age can keep choreographer Twyla Tharp from her work", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. It was..."}
{"id": "1056895288", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Twyla Tharp", "title": "Neither the pandemic nor age can keep choreographer Twyla Tharp from her work", "question_index": 12, "text": "When you started your company - and this was in 1966 - the company was all women.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview from last April with dancer and choreographer Twyla Tharp. The PBS \"American Masters\" documentary about her called \"Twyla Moves\" still is streami"}
{"id": "1056895288", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Twyla Tharp", "title": "Neither the pandemic nor age can keep choreographer Twyla Tharp from her work", "question_index": 13, "text": "And why did you want it to be all women?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1056895288", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Twyla Tharp", "title": "Neither the pandemic nor age can keep choreographer Twyla Tharp from her work", "question_index": 14, "text": "And by having it be all women in your company, did it also help open the door to having different types of women? - because, you know, often in dance, like, the choreographer or the head of the company has a certain type that they want. And certainly, in ballet, you almost need to be physically a certain type. And you've even talked about, like, bringing somebody into your company who was rejected because they were too tall for the company they had auditioned for. So was this also a way of, like, opening the door to, like, different types of women, different body types, different heights?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "well, let's see here. I think we knew there was a bias. I think we knew there was a bias in the world of art across the boards, whether it was music, painting, sculpture, literature, dance. And we wan"}
{"id": "1056895288", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Twyla Tharp", "title": "Neither the pandemic nor age can keep choreographer Twyla Tharp from her work", "question_index": 15, "text": "Before you started doing your own work as a choreographer and dancer and you danced, like, in classes and in the Paul Taylor Company, how was your body regarded? You know, were you considered...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, diversity. I've always - one of my favorite thematic mode (ph) is inclusive. In order to be inclusive, you need to have differentiation. So by having tall, short, classically trained, no classic"}
{"id": "1056895288", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Twyla Tharp", "title": "Neither the pandemic nor age can keep choreographer Twyla Tharp from her work", "question_index": 16, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I have no idea."}
{"id": "1056895288", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Twyla Tharp", "title": "Neither the pandemic nor age can keep choreographer Twyla Tharp from her work", "question_index": 17, "text": "Could you define that a little bit more, what you had that they didn't?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was in some very high-level classes. Cynthia Gregory would be in front of me. I'd say, OK, you can forget it about that fourth pirouette. You don't got it. So let's - plus, which she was - or Toni L"}
{"id": "1056895288", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Twyla Tharp", "title": "Neither the pandemic nor age can keep choreographer Twyla Tharp from her work", "question_index": 18, "text": "In 1973, Robert Joffrey of the Joffrey Ballet asked you to choreograph a piece for his company. You brought your dancers, too. So it was a mix of the ballet dancers and your company. What was your vision for combining ballet and your approach to dance?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had a capacity for kind of kinetic movement that had been trained out of them in the classic technique, which is very elevated, very elongated, light, high, to be very fast. I had speed. I didn't ha"}
{"id": "1056895288", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Twyla Tharp", "title": "Neither the pandemic nor age can keep choreographer Twyla Tharp from her work", "question_index": 19, "text": "So you mentioned falls.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, here's the thing. I had always felt that one dancer should be able to dance across the line. That is to say, when I started working in New York, you were either a modern dancer, or you were a ba"}
{"id": "1056895288", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Twyla Tharp", "title": "Neither the pandemic nor age can keep choreographer Twyla Tharp from her work", "question_index": 20, "text": "And those are important in your choreography.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1056895288", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Twyla Tharp", "title": "Neither the pandemic nor age can keep choreographer Twyla Tharp from her work", "question_index": 21, "text": "Why was that important to you as a choreographer, to include falls?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1056895288", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Twyla Tharp", "title": "Neither the pandemic nor age can keep choreographer Twyla Tharp from her work", "question_index": 22, "text": "Oh, gosh. There's a scene in the documentary. And I can't remember - is it with Baryshnikov that you're dancing and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because it implies the fearlessness. And in truth, it is a kind of fearlessness. You're not afraid to fall. With classical dancers, they're not trained to fall. They fall, they're going to sprain some"}
{"id": "1056895288", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Twyla Tharp", "title": "Neither the pandemic nor age can keep choreographer Twyla Tharp from her work", "question_index": 23, "text": "...You're dropped", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I'm dropped."}
{"id": "1056895288", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Twyla Tharp", "title": "Neither the pandemic nor age can keep choreographer Twyla Tharp from her work", "question_index": 24, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I'm dropped."}
{"id": "1056895288", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Twyla Tharp", "title": "Neither the pandemic nor age can keep choreographer Twyla Tharp from her work", "question_index": 25, "text": "And you're stunned. But you're not hurt. Does that happen a lot?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "1056895288", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Twyla Tharp", "title": "Neither the pandemic nor age can keep choreographer Twyla Tharp from her work", "question_index": 26, "text": "You were hurt?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was actually hurt. But the thing is this..."}
{"id": "1056895288", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Twyla Tharp", "title": "Neither the pandemic nor age can keep choreographer Twyla Tharp from her work", "question_index": 27, "text": "So what was your injury?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I didn't stop because we were performing in a couple of days. But it was - I had to have acupuncture for the only time in my life. But in all fairness, it has - he didn't drop me. I slipped. I w"}
{"id": "1056895288", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Twyla Tharp", "title": "Neither the pandemic nor age can keep choreographer Twyla Tharp from her work", "question_index": 28, "text": "You wrote a dance for Mikhail Baryshnikov a couple of years after he defected to the West. And at the time, he was really, like, the most famous dancer. And you had - you say you had to teach him to slouch, which, of course, goes against ballet training. And he was, you know, classically trained in Russia. He was, you know, a superb, you know, ballet dancer. What is the importance of slouch in your dance? And what did it take to help him learn how to slouch, which probably really went against his instincts as a dancer?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's interview from last April with dancer and choreographer Twyla Tharp. The PBS \"American Masters\" documentary about "}
{"id": "1056895288", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Twyla Tharp", "title": "Neither the pandemic nor age can keep choreographer Twyla Tharp from her work", "question_index": 29, "text": "And what was the importance of slouching in...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, because East Europeans always wanted to be cool, and being cool meant hanging down. So while he didn't quite know how to do it, it was certainly something that was seductive. And so, you know, you"}
{"id": "1056895288", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Twyla Tharp", "title": "Neither the pandemic nor age can keep choreographer Twyla Tharp from her work", "question_index": 30, "text": "I was amazed to find out that your first major injury was when you were 69. Now, you mentioned that you were injured when you slipped out of Mikhail Baryshnikov's hands...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Again, community. How many people sitting out there in your audience have the placement of a great classical dancer? So, of course, they're going to feel distance from a great classical dancer if that"}
{"id": "1056895288", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Twyla Tharp", "title": "Neither the pandemic nor age can keep choreographer Twyla Tharp from her work", "question_index": 31, "text": "...Because you were wearing slippery pants. But it's amazing that you could do the kind of dancing that you've done over the years and not be injured. I mean, don't most dancers suffer, like, multiple injuries or whatever?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1056895288", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Twyla Tharp", "title": "Neither the pandemic nor age can keep choreographer Twyla Tharp from her work", "question_index": 32, "text": "When you were injured at the age of 69, you broke a metatarsal in your foot. Was that life-changing? I mean, did you have to walk around with a boot? Or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But most dancers - yeah, but most dancers aren't responsible for telling their body to do what it wants to do; most dancers have to do what other people tell their body to do. And they are not, most o"}
{"id": "1056895288", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Twyla Tharp", "title": "Neither the pandemic nor age can keep choreographer Twyla Tharp from her work", "question_index": 33, "text": "In your memoir, \"Keep It Moving,\" you wrote about all the stamina you had when you were in your 20s and how your movement and stamina changed over the decades. And you write, (reading) In your 20s, flexibility - yeah. Speed was a specialty. Power - actually not as great as it would become later. My coordination let me flip movement in space over, under, forward, back, torso going counter or parallel to the hips. Isolations were honed to where I could deliver movement off a single muscle. I was a big jumper. My falls were fearless. Balance was always my weakness, but you would never know that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, the problem is this - and this I do share because it's very common - I should have stayed off it for about, oh, I don't know, two weeks maybe. And a metatarsal is not that big a deal, and it wil"}
{"id": "1056895288", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Twyla Tharp", "title": "Neither the pandemic nor age can keep choreographer Twyla Tharp from her work", "question_index": 34, "text": "(Reading) Eating was anything any time", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1056895288", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Twyla Tharp", "title": "Neither the pandemic nor age can keep choreographer Twyla Tharp from her work", "question_index": 35, "text": ". So as you approach 80, where are you now in terms of what you feel like your body's capable of?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1056895288", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Twyla Tharp", "title": "Neither the pandemic nor age can keep choreographer Twyla Tharp from her work", "question_index": 36, "text": "Not everybody who's a dancer dances or choreographs into their 80s. I know you studied either with Merce Cunningham personally or at least in his company, and he's somebody who did dance into his 80s. I think I have the age right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK, that's a fair question. And the answer is, I'm not quite sure because this last year has been so compromised, both by the pandemic but also by the amount of work I've done because not only was it "}
{"id": "1056895288", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Twyla Tharp", "title": "Neither the pandemic nor age can keep choreographer Twyla Tharp from her work", "question_index": 37, "text": "And I'm wondering if he inspired you at all to think, yeah, I can do that, too; it's been done.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1056895288", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Twyla Tharp", "title": "Neither the pandemic nor age can keep choreographer Twyla Tharp from her work", "question_index": 38, "text": "How did you avoid the kind of arthritis that affected Graham and Cunningham?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes and no. Merce was in his 40s when I studied with him. And yes, I studied directly in his classes for four years. He was a great dancer. And I watched him teach. And he taught on one side. And he i"}
{"id": "1056895288", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Twyla Tharp", "title": "Neither the pandemic nor age can keep choreographer Twyla Tharp from her work", "question_index": 39, "text": "Twyla Tharp, it's just been great to talk with you. And I really want to thank you for doing this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Partially - yeah, partially - well, obviously, it's genetic. It also has to do with lifestyles. Diet has improved immeasurably. But it also has to do with the kind of physical disciplines. Graham work"}
{"id": "1057247732", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Gordon Parks", "title": "Photographer and director Gordon Parks captured the Black experience", "question_index": 0, "text": "Let's go back to your early years. You left home when you were about 15 years old. Why did you set off on your own at such a young age?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. A new documentary called \"A Choice Of Weapon: Inspired By Gordon Parks,\" is about the great photographer who chronicled the Black experience for Life magazine. Later, he went on to "}
{"id": "1057247732", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Gordon Parks", "title": "Photographer and director Gordon Parks captured the Black experience", "question_index": 1, "text": "What were some of the first ways that you earned a living when you were out on your own?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was sent off to Minnesota. My mother requested that they take me to Minnesota after she died. As - and my sister Peggy (ph) and her husband, David Grissom, were living in Minnesota. And I was sent t"}
{"id": "1057247732", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Gordon Parks", "title": "Photographer and director Gordon Parks captured the Black experience", "question_index": 2, "text": "And it was photography that got you out of that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I played piano at a whorehouse. I played - later played professional basketball. I played with an orchestra. I did a lot of things. I was a janitor, the young janitor at a flophouse in Chicago. "}
{"id": "1057247732", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Gordon Parks", "title": "Photographer and director Gordon Parks captured the Black experience", "question_index": 3, "text": "When you started to work professionally, did you find that a lot of magazines were reluctant to hire a Black photographer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "More or less. I had seen the bombing of the U.S. gunship, was called the Panay. It was bombed by Japanese planes. And the cameraman who took the picture stayed right by his post until the gun boat san"}
{"id": "1057247732", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Gordon Parks", "title": "Photographer and director Gordon Parks captured the Black experience", "question_index": 4, "text": "One of the photographic series that you did for Life that first made a really big impression on the public and on your editors there was your series of photos of a Harlem gang. It was hard for you to convince them to let you shoot photographs of them. What kinds of photographs did you end up taking? What did you want to show Americans about this gang?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I did not. I did not find that experience. I did find one experience. I went to Harper's Bazaar. And I had spoke to Alexey Brodovitch, who was the art director there at that time. And he told me v"}
{"id": "1057247732", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Gordon Parks", "title": "Photographer and director Gordon Parks captured the Black experience", "question_index": 5, "text": "How did you feel about taking that photograph of watching somebody get stabbed in the stomach?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I wanted to show the horrors of gang war. And these young - at that time, these young gang leaders were knocking each other off in Harlem and shooting each other and killing one another and all "}
{"id": "1057247732", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Gordon Parks", "title": "Photographer and director Gordon Parks captured the Black experience", "question_index": 6, "text": "In your memoir, you write that you had four friends who died brutally before they were 21 and that you consider yourself lucky that you didn't end up killing someone yourself. And I wasn't sure whether you meant you were lucky sociologically that you didn't end up killing someone or if you were referring to your own temperament.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You don't feel good about it at all. You don't - there's nothing you can do about it at the moment. That's - if you - it's no - you're not going to run up there and grab the knife and say, hey, don't "}
{"id": "1057247732", "date": "2021-11-19", "guest": "Gordon Parks", "title": "Photographer and director Gordon Parks captured the Black experience", "question_index": 7, "text": "Well, I want to thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In Kansas in those days. There was always racial strife. You were always set upon because you were Black by gangs of whites or something of that sort if you were caught in the wrong neighborhood. And "}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today we pay tribute to Dave Frishberg, a songwriter, jazz pianist and singer. He died Wednesday. He was 88. Many of his songs have the wit that's associated with American popular song of the past. But the lyrics he wrote were about the anxieties of contemporary life, songs like \"I'm Hip,\" \"My Attorney Bernie\" and \"Quality Time.\" But he also wrote beautiful ballads like \"Heart's Desire, \"Sweet Kentucky Ham\" and \"You Are There.\" One of his most famous songs, \"I'm Just A Bill,\" was written for the kids TV series \"Schoolhouse Rock!\" to explain how a bill becomes a law. Some of the performers who recorded his songs are Rosemary Clooney, Mel Torme, Blossom Dearie, Al Jarreau, Jackie and Roy, Diane Krall (ph), Susannah McCorkle and Rebecca Kilgore. Four of his own albums were nominated for Grammys. I love hearing him interpret his own songs and feel so lucky that he was willing to perform on our show several times. Those multiple appearances are a sign of just how much we enjoyed his music. Today we'll hear highlights of some of those FRESH AIR interviews and performances, starting with this 1991 FRESH AIR studio performance and interview.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 1, "text": "Dave Frishberg, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 2, "text": "You've brought a brand-new song with you, and I'd love to hear it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. I'm glad to be here."}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 3, "text": "I love it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. Great. I'd like to do it for you. (Playing piano, singing) I'll be late getting home from the office, and so will you because we both got a million calls to return and a million things to do. We'r"}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 4, "text": "That's a great new song. You know, you do something that Cole Porter used to do, which is, like, incorporate like proper nouns, you know, like names of people from the period that you're writing this song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you."}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 5, "text": "And - oh, that's a really funny song. You've gotten in everything.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Right, right."}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 6, "text": "You got your start as a pianist as opposed to a songwriter, pianist and singer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's my job."}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 7, "text": "You were a sideman with a lot of musicians. You were a house pianist at one of the New York clubs. What made you realize that, like, your ultimate calling was going to be writing songs as well as playing and singing those songs, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As a pianist, yes."}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 8, "text": "Mmm hmm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, as far as writing is concerned, I began to write soon after I got to New York. And while I was a sideman, as you say - and I used to try to write so that other singers would be interested or tha"}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 9, "text": "What I like about composers singing their songs, you know, is that if you aren't, like, relying on a lot of technique, then there's something else in your voice. It's - do you know what I mean? - in addition to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was kind of writing down to my song. And that doesn't make it. It was obvious that I wasn't really that kind of a writer, and I was just trying to write amateurishly. And so I stopped. And I began t"}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, I think composers like you have a way of kind of putting across a song and of putting a certain kind of - well, the right emotion, whether it's wit or sentiment - do you know what I mean? - just kind of striking the right emotion in the way you're performing it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my main purpose is to make sure that the words are all understood."}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 11, "text": "What's an example of a song where you lay out like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that could be. That could be. And if there's any technique to what I do as far as accompanying myself, I think it might lie in the fact that a lot of times, I sing to silence. I stop playing whe"}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 12, "text": "Have you ever sang with anybody else accompanying you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, for instance, a song like \"Zoot Walks In,\" which is full of jazz articulation, you know. (Playing piano, singing) Jazz is a saxophone sound. Not every player's got his own sound. Well, you see h"}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, only for brief hysterical moments."}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 14, "text": "Dave, you got another song for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I sang with a full orchestra once. That was really terrifying. In California Peter Matz was conducting, and it was a tribute to Johnny Mandel. And I was doing a Johnny Mandel song called \"El Cajon\" wi"}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 15, "text": "Sure. Oh, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. I thought maybe I'll play the piano a little bit."}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 16, "text": "That's Dave Frishberg at the piano. He died last week at the age of 88. We'll continue our tribute to him after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'll do - I always end up playing Duke Ellington music. I don't know why. I just seem to gravitate toward it. He's one of my favorite people. This is \"The Mooche.\" Duke wrote this in the late 1920s. A"}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Today we're paying tribute to songwriter, pianist and singer Dave Frishberg. He died last Wednesday at age 88. Let's get back to his 1991 interview and performance on our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'll do - I always end up playing Duke Ellington music. I don't know why. I just seem to gravitate toward it. He's one of my favorite people. This is \"The Mooche.\" Duke wrote this in the late 1920s. A"}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 18, "text": "You said something once to Whitney Balliett of The New Yorker about lyrics that I quite like, that good lyrics come up to the edge of poetry and turn left.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'll do - I always end up playing Duke Ellington music. I don't know why. I just seem to gravitate toward it. He's one of my favorite people. This is \"The Mooche.\" Duke wrote this in the late 1920s. A"}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 19, "text": "Since we're talking about lyrics, let me ask you to do another of your own. And I think we've got a song coming up that's - I think it's really become one of your most popular.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think a better, more telling little aphorism was said by Frank Loesser, who said that lyric writing is not literature and it's not poetry, it's journalism. And I think that really says it."}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 20, "text": "Really nice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Sweet Kentucky Ham.\" Yes, it - I don't know if it's mine, one of my most popular, but I was very flattered and pleased to receive a book in the mail the other day from a writer named Terry Teachout. "}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 21, "text": "Dave Frishberg. That's Dave Frishberg singing his song \"Sweet Kentucky Ham,\" as recorded on our show in 1991. We enjoyed his songs and performances so much than in 1997, to help celebrate our 10th anniversary as a daily NPR show, we commissioned him to write an anniversary song. Here he is performing it on that 10th anniversary show. The song is called \"Fresh Air Fanatic.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 22, "text": "That's Dave Frishberg in 1997 on our show, celebrating FRESH AIR's 10th anniversary as a daily NPR program. That line, which rhymed cocaine with Marty Moss-Coane - that was a shoutout to our colleague Marty Moss-Coane, who used to guest host FRESH AIR on my days off. Dave Frishberg died last Wednesday. We'll continue our tribute to him in the second half of the show. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing, playing piano) FRESH AIR hooked Up with NPR exactly 10 years ago. So today's the day to toss a bouquet to my favorite radio show. I must write a timely tribute. But what song form shall I ch"}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today, we're paying tribute to the songwriter, jazz pianist and singer Dave Frishberg and listening back to some of his interviews and performances on our show. He died last week. He was 88. Frishberg wrote witty songs like \"I'm Hip,\" \"My Attorney Bernie\" and \"Quality Time,\" ballads like \"Heart's Desire\" and \"You Are There\" and songs for the kids TV series \"Schoolhouse Rock!\" like \"I'm Just A Bill.\" In 1999, as part of our series about some of the notable composers and lyricists who contributed to the American popular songbook, we invited Frishberg and singer Rebecca Kilgore to perform songs by the lyricist Dorothy Fields. Frishberg and Kilgore often performed together. They recorded together, too. Here's a duet they did for us of the song \"A Fine Romance\" with a lyric by Dorothy Fields and music by Jerome Kern.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing, playing piano) I want to be a sideman, just an ordinary sideman. I go along for the ride, man, responsibility-free. I want to fill behind the vocal, double on flute and jam on the blues. I w"}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 24, "text": "That was Rebecca Kilgore and Dave Frishberg recorded on our show in 1999, performing the Jerome Kern-Dorothy Fields song \"A Fine Romance.\" Let's continue our tribute to Frishberg with an excerpt of his 1995 interview and performance on our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Romance, romance, this is a fine romance. Am I out of line or is this a fine romance?"}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 25, "text": "Dave, what was the music that you grew up with? What was the pop music of your time when you were coming of age?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Romance, romance, this is a fine romance. Am I out of line or is this a fine romance?"}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 26, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was born in 1933, so I grew up - you know, I grew up in a house with two jitterbug older brothers. They wore saddle shoes and my brother, Mort, who was seven years older than I, he had a keych"}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 27, "text": "What was your father's music or your parents' music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that was the music that was in my house when I was a kid. In other words, at 6 and 7, 8 years old, the music that I remember was Count Basie, Lester Young, Jimmy Rushing, Jay McShann with Walter B"}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 28, "text": "Now, when you started to play piano, what did you play?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My father was a singer in the temple, in the Jewish temple, you know, in the choir. He was deeply interested in liturgical music. He used to listen to Richard Tucker records and Jan Peerce and those g"}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 29, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Boogie-woogie, the blues - I was a blues player. When I was 12 or 13 years old, I was deep into Pete Johnson. He was my hero, Pete Johnson from Kansas City and Joe Turner. My brother Mort, the guy wit"}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 30, "text": "Did you ever get to see these guys play when you were young?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And so he and I would play the Joe Turner-Pete Johnson boogie-woogie records, and we would copy them. I would copy them off the record. And we would - that's how I began playing the blues. I cou"}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 31, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had occasion to meet and play with Jay McShann and duets and stuff. That was really fun. I admired him so. And I did meet Count Basie under very odd circumstances once. I don't know if you wan"}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 32, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I got there, the band was Count Basie's band. I was rehearsing them. And Basie stepped aside and I went to the piano and began to rehearse Count Basie's band and Mel Torme's opening number. I fel"}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 33, "text": "Oh, God. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I rehearsed the band and I said, well, that's fine. And Basie, from where he was sitting, said, what do you mean that's fine? That's terrible. Let me show you how it's supposed to sound. Oh, those guy"}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 34, "text": "Did you feel in on the joke or insulted?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was fun. That was funny, actually."}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 35, "text": "So how did you get to rehearse the band?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not insulted, certainly. But it was good-natured. They weren't mean guys. And I knew several of the people in the band, including the meanest was Marshal Royal, and he was on my side."}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 36, "text": "Dave Frishberg recorded on our show in 1995. We'll continue our tribute to him after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Somebody called me. Torme was going to be late, and whoever was going to rehearse was going to be late with him. And they needed somebody to rehearse the band. You know, this this happened in Los Ange"}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 37, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Today we're paying tribute to songwriter, jazz pianist and singer Dave Frishberg. He died last Wednesday. Let's get back to his 1995 interview and performance on our show. That session included this track from one of his albums of his song, \"My Attorney Bernie.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Somebody called me. Torme was going to be late, and whoever was going to rehearse was going to be late with him. And they needed somebody to rehearse the band. You know, this this happened in Los Ange"}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 38, "text": "There's actually a book of sheet music of your songs. It's not like I could sit down and play the arrangements or anything, but I was looking through the book of sheet music. And in one of the songs it says - where it should say, you know, like, andante or moderate tempo or something, it says conversationally. I thought, that's perfect. Yes, that song should - it's not the kind of notation you usually see in sheet music, but I thought, yes, that's exactly right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I'm impressed with my attorney, Bernie. I'm impressed with his influential friends. He's got very big connections, and I follow his directions. Bernie knows his way around, and so I always d"}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 39, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's not that uncommon, actually."}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 40, "text": "Yeah, I don't know what you mean. The last time I saw you perform, it was in New York a couple of years ago, and you did a song called \"Wallflower\"...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I've seen a lot of songs that have those kind of expressions, you know, forgetting the old Italian or German expressions. Conversationally makes a lot of sense, you know. I liked it. A lot of "}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 41, "text": "Yeah, and it was a really - I really liked the song a lot. And there was a very, actually, funny story that went along with the song. And I'd love for you to tell the story and play the song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Wallflower Lonely, Cornflower Blue.\""}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 42, "text": "What - did you have a witty retort?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I say, what are you talking about? He says, well that's not a cowboy chord."}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 43, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Later on, I thought of a witty retort. And then - and when I tell the story, I pretend like I really said it at the time. But I didn't think of it till years later. I should have said to him, you "}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 44, "text": ". That's Dave Frishberg recorded on our show in 1995. We'll hear a story about his famous \"Schoolhouse Rock!\" song, \"I'm Just A Bill,\" and hear him sing it after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I didn't think of it at the time. As a matter of fact, I probably - in those days, I probably took him seriously, you know, probably avoided B7 for a few weeks."}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 45, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to our tribute to songwriter, jazz pianist and singer Dave Frishberg. He died last Wednesday. Here's more of his 1995 interview and performance on our show. I asked him about a song he wrote for the kids' show \"Schoolhouse Rock!\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I didn't think of it at the time. As a matter of fact, I probably - in those days, I probably took him seriously, you know, probably avoided B7 for a few weeks."}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 46, "text": "One of your songs from there is actually quite famous.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I didn't think of it at the time. As a matter of fact, I probably - in those days, I probably took him seriously, you know, probably avoided B7 for a few weeks."}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 47, "text": "\"I'm Just A Bill\"...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Isn't that amazing?"}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 48, "text": "...About how a bill becomes a law.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"I'm Just A Bill.\""}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 49, "text": "We have to play it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, I wrote that in 1974, maybe. That's 20-some years ago, and it's still on. And a lot of people know this song, and it shocks me 'cause I never paid much attention to it. I don't watch kids'"}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 50, "text": "Oh, wow - odd, what a strange experience.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I will. (Playing piano, singing) I'm just a bill. Yes, I'm only a bill, and I'm sitting here on Capitol Hill. Well, it's a long, long journey to the capital city. It's a long, long wait while you're w"}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 51, "text": ". So there's a song I want to ask you to do that I think is a fairly recent song, although I'm not sure, you've recorded on one of your recent records. It's called \"Snowbound,\" and it strikes me as being a song that's almost out of character for you because it's not quite the type of character you usually write for. It's not...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very odd. You know, you never know when you - I kept saying, you're singing too much. Just do it conversationally."}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 52, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, this is - I guess, you know, I don't even have a character in mind at all for this. The reason I wrote such a song is because a lot of singers have been coming to me. And they say, we'd like to "}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 53, "text": "Do they mean weird lyrically or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I know exactly what they mean."}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 54, "text": "...Melodically or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, weird - yes."}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 55, "text": "Or they don't fit that character.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And also from the fact that the songs that I write are written for characters, and a lot of singers kind of sense that they're written for a character and are reluctant to play a character."}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 56, "text": "I love the song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Or they don't fit that character or they prefer to play themselves. So they asked me, can't you write something - I guess they want a little something more neutral, I call it - you know, something mor"}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 57, "text": "Oh, no.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's, you know, odd because I went to Scandinavian play this last summer and I met a guy there who's translated it into Norwegian."}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 58, "text": "I particularly enjoy songs like that in the winter. It's really nice to have those, like, you know, snow anthems", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he sang it for me in Norwegian, and it's hip. I think I like it better in Norwegian."}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 59, "text": "when the weather gets really bad. So I'd like to close with another song, and I'd like you to close with another song I mean", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he sang it for me in Norwegian, and it's hip. I think I like it better in Norwegian."}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 60, "text": "the more correct way of putting it. Let me ask you to choose something and feel free to play something new if you wanted to that I couldn't possibly request because I wouldn't know it yet or one of your classics or anything you'd like. But I'm going to let you select it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he sang it for me in Norwegian, and it's hip. I think I like it better in Norwegian."}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 61, "text": "No.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. Have I ever sung \"You Are There\" on this program?"}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 62, "text": "Why don't you do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I really like that one."}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 63, "text": "That's a beautiful song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is a song that's mine with the lyric only. The music was written by Johnny Mandel. And he submitted it to me or gave it to me. He had shown it to a bunch of other lyric writers, he told me later."}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 64, "text": "Dave, it's always so wonderful to have you on FRESH AIR. I'm so glad you were able to come back and do the show again. And thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I like it a lot, and I'm proud of the lyric. It was a tough one to write."}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 65, "text": "Dave Frishberg recorded on our show in 1995. I'm so grateful to him for his music and for his appearances on our show. Our sympathies to his family, friends and fellow musicians. We fans will miss him, too. There will be a tribute to him at a club called The 1905 in Portland where he lived. Musicians who knew him will perform and talk about him. It will be livestreamed on Thursday, December 9. As the planning continues, updated information will be available at the1905.org/dave. That's the1905.org/dave. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, as we head into the holiday, we have a very entertaining interview I just recorded with Dave Grohl, who had his guitar and played and sang. He founded the band Foo Fighters, which was just inducted into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. Paul McCartney inducted the band and in his remarks called the Foo Fighters one of the greatest rock 'n' roll bands in the world. The first time Grohl was inducted was when he was the drummer for Nirvana. And by the way, on Thanksgiving Day, we'll feature an encore of my recent interview with Paul McCartney. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks, Terry."}
{"id": "1057984669", "date": "2021-11-23", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering 'Schoolhouse Rock!' songwriter Dave Frishberg", "question_index": 66, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Kayla Lattimore. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks, Terry."}
{"id": "1058017557", "date": "2021-11-25", "guest": "The Beatles", "title": "Paul McCartney knew he'd never top The Beatles \u2014 and that's just fine with him", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We thought it would be fun to spend Thanksgiving with Paul McCartney, so we're going to feature my recent interview with him. We talked about his life and music through two projects. He has a new two-volume set of books called \"The Lyrics,\" collecting his lyrics and the stories behind them, starting with songs he wrote before the Beatles and ending with songs from his latest album, \"McCartney III,\" which was released late last year. There's also the new documentary \"Get Back,\" which is about the three weeks the Beatles spent in 1969 writing, rehearsing and recording the songs on their album \"Let It Be,\" and giving their final performance together on a rooftop in London's Savile Row. The band broke up before the album \"Let It Be\" was released in 1970. This documentary draws on footage that was not used in the 1970 film \"Let It Be\" that documented the same sessions. \"Get Back\" will premiere in three two-hour installments over the holiday weekend, starting today, on Disney+.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1058017557", "date": "2021-11-25", "guest": "The Beatles", "title": "Paul McCartney knew he'd never top The Beatles \u2014 and that's just fine with him", "question_index": 1, "text": "Let's start with a song that kicked off the Beatles' first album.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1058017557", "date": "2021-11-25", "guest": "The Beatles", "title": "Paul McCartney knew he'd never top The Beatles \u2014 and that's just fine with him", "question_index": 2, "text": "Paul McCartney, welcome back to FRESH AIR. It is such an honor to have you back on our show. So did you know the count-off would be left in that song when you recorded it? I love hearing the count-off. It's kind of the equivalent of, like, an overture in a musical. It gets you, like, really excited for what you're going to hear", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One, two, three, four. (Singing) Well, she was just 17, you know what I mean? And the way she looked was way beyond compare. So how could I dance with another when I saw her standing there? Well, she "}
{"id": "1058017557", "date": "2021-11-25", "guest": "The Beatles", "title": "Paul McCartney knew he'd never top The Beatles \u2014 and that's just fine with him", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One, two, three, four. (Singing) Well, she was just 17, you know what I mean? And the way she looked was way beyond compare. So how could I dance with another when I saw her standing there? Well, she "}
{"id": "1058017557", "date": "2021-11-25", "guest": "The Beatles", "title": "Paul McCartney knew he'd never top The Beatles \u2014 and that's just fine with him", "question_index": 4, "text": "Hi.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, you know, that's one of the things about that song, really. And we use it just for practical purposes. Oh, by the way, hi, Terry..."}
{"id": "1058017557", "date": "2021-11-25", "guest": "The Beatles", "title": "Paul McCartney knew he'd never top The Beatles \u2014 and that's just fine with him", "question_index": 5, "text": "So how did that become the B-side of \"I Want To Hold Your Hand\"? Like, why wasn't it the A-side?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And listeners. Yeah. Yeah, we used it for practical purposes, you know, just to count ourselves in. But I think that was a particularly exuberant one that our producer thought it'd be a good idea t"}
{"id": "1058017557", "date": "2021-11-25", "guest": "The Beatles", "title": "Paul McCartney knew he'd never top The Beatles \u2014 and that's just fine with him", "question_index": 6, "text": "You write, eroticism was a driving force behind everything I did. That's what lay behind a lot of these love songs. Meanwhile, your fans were having a lot of erotic thoughts about you. Can you talk a little bit about what the experience was like of being, like, an object of desire at a time when - you know, when men are going through a time in your life that's typical of a highly sexualized period in a young man's life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. These are just decisions that are taken at the time, and I think \"I Want To Hold Your Hand\" was just stronger."}
{"id": "1058017557", "date": "2021-11-25", "guest": "The Beatles", "title": "Paul McCartney knew he'd never top The Beatles \u2014 and that's just fine with him", "question_index": 7, "text": "So how did it change your life and your self-image when millions of teenage girls wanted you to make love to them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. The truth was here's - you got four young men in Liverpool, and pretty much, you were looking for a girlfriend, and you were looking for sex. I mean, you know, that's in your private life. And t"}
{"id": "1058017557", "date": "2021-11-25", "guest": "The Beatles", "title": "Paul McCartney knew he'd never top The Beatles \u2014 and that's just fine with him", "question_index": 8, "text": "You know something I kept thinking about re-reading some of your early lyrics and thinking about when I first heard the Beatles and when I first heard the songs and when I first saw \"A Hard Day's Night\" - I never had the chance to see the Beatles in concert, but I did see \"A Hard Day's Night\" when it opened. That was my first time, outside of \"Ed Sullivan,\" when I was sitting in the living room with my parents, and I wasn't going to scream. But in the movie theater, everyone was screaming, and I was screaming, too. And I can't tell you how out of character that is for me. And so I've always wondered, like, why was I doing that", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was very wonderful. And it was like, wow, look at this. Finally, we're attracting attention, and all these girls seem to really like us. You know, we'd never experienced that. If you're lucky, ther"}
{"id": "1058017557", "date": "2021-11-25", "guest": "The Beatles", "title": "Paul McCartney knew he'd never top The Beatles \u2014 and that's just fine with him", "question_index": 9, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was very wonderful. And it was like, wow, look at this. Finally, we're attracting attention, and all these girls seem to really like us. You know, we'd never experienced that. If you're lucky, ther"}
{"id": "1058017557", "date": "2021-11-25", "guest": "The Beatles", "title": "Paul McCartney knew he'd never top The Beatles \u2014 and that's just fine with him", "question_index": 10, "text": "Until you didn't, though, right? Until you didn't feel that way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know. It - well, I say it was an excitement. And your question of what did we feel? We loved it. We felt excited back."}
{"id": "1058017557", "date": "2021-11-25", "guest": "The Beatles", "title": "Paul McCartney knew he'd never top The Beatles \u2014 and that's just fine with him", "question_index": 11, "text": "So let's get to another song. And this is the song that you describe in your book by saying, if pushed, I would say it's my favorite of all my songs. And the song is \"Here, There And Everywhere,\" which was on The Beatles' 1966 album, \"Revolver.\" What makes this your favorite song or one of them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no, later then it got a bit wearying because now the first sort of flush of the excitement had been going for quite a few years, and we were maturing. And we were sort of out of that phase. So w"}
{"id": "1058017557", "date": "2021-11-25", "guest": "The Beatles", "title": "Paul McCartney knew he'd never top The Beatles \u2014 and that's just fine with him", "question_index": 12, "text": "OK, so here's \"Here, There And Everywhere.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think the structure of it. I like it. It always reminds me in structure of a great Cole Porter song, \"Cheek To Cheek,\" which Fred Astaire sang. And it starts off, heaven, I'm in heaven, da la "}
{"id": "1058017557", "date": "2021-11-25", "guest": "The Beatles", "title": "Paul McCartney knew he'd never top The Beatles \u2014 and that's just fine with him", "question_index": 13, "text": "That's Paul McCartney's song \"Here, There And Everywhere,\" which was on the Beatles' 1966 album \"Revolver.\" Did John have any input on that song? It's officially a Lennon-McCartney song, though it's really your song. And you now put your name first on the songs that you're primarily responsible for.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) To lead a better life, I need my love to be here - here, making each day of the year, changing my life with a wave of her hand. Nobody can deny that there's something there. There, running m"}
{"id": "1058017557", "date": "2021-11-25", "guest": "The Beatles", "title": "Paul McCartney knew he'd never top The Beatles \u2014 and that's just fine with him", "question_index": 14, "text": "What was the process of writing songs with John compared to writing them by yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "John had always a little bit of an influence. But often I might have written the whole thing myself, and then when we came to record it, you know he would - there would be some influence. I can't reme"}
{"id": "1058017557", "date": "2021-11-25", "guest": "The Beatles", "title": "Paul McCartney knew he'd never top The Beatles \u2014 and that's just fine with him", "question_index": 15, "text": "If it was so good writing songs together, why did you end up writing songs separately?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Writing with John was a lot easier because you've actually got a sounding board. You're sitting across from someone. And we normally wrote on two acoustic guitars. So he'd be sitting there. I'd be sit"}
{"id": "1058017557", "date": "2021-11-25", "guest": "The Beatles", "title": "Paul McCartney knew he'd never top The Beatles \u2014 and that's just fine with him", "question_index": 16, "text": "Let's skip ahead to \"Sgt. Pepper\" from 1967. You describe this in your book as a way of recording in persona to get out of the persona of the Beatles. Why did you feel it was time to change the mental scenery?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was just a question of location, really. I mean, if I was on holiday and I wanted to write a song, John wouldn't be there. So I would just write the song, and I wouldn't think, oh, I've got to wait"}
{"id": "1058017557", "date": "2021-11-25", "guest": "The Beatles", "title": "Paul McCartney knew he'd never top The Beatles \u2014 and that's just fine with him", "question_index": 17, "text": "How did it liberate you? What do you think you did differently?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a good way of putting it. I think because it was time. You know, we'd been the Beatles for quite a while. And when you made a record, you knew you were making a Beatles record. And so you impos"}
{"id": "1058017557", "date": "2021-11-25", "guest": "The Beatles", "title": "Paul McCartney knew he'd never top The Beatles \u2014 and that's just fine with him", "question_index": 18, "text": "You know, in terms of trying new things, the Beatles went through, like, a psychedelic period where you all spent time with the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi in - both in the U.S. and in India. And for people who don't know, he was like a - basically a guru-type figure. And, you know, I think, like, John and George were really doing some, like, spiritual seeking at the time. But what about you? Did you feel that need at the time, or was it more like going along with the band?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think you just realized that you could stretch your ideas. So the idea of the album became like a sort of radio play. So it had a kind of concept. And then in things like \"Day In The Life,\" be"}
{"id": "1058017557", "date": "2021-11-25", "guest": "The Beatles", "title": "Paul McCartney knew he'd never top The Beatles \u2014 and that's just fine with him", "question_index": 19, "text": "Do you still meditate?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I think - you say psychedelic. This - the meditation was post-psychedelic, I think, because, you know, at that time, everyone, including us, was doing a lot of drugs. And that, you know, can burn "}
{"id": "1058017557", "date": "2021-11-25", "guest": "The Beatles", "title": "Paul McCartney knew he'd never top The Beatles \u2014 and that's just fine with him", "question_index": 20, "text": "Same practice that he taught you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1058017557", "date": "2021-11-25", "guest": "The Beatles", "title": "Paul McCartney knew he'd never top The Beatles \u2014 and that's just fine with him", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, actually, yeah. I sometimes think, I should have developed. I should be..."}
{"id": "1058017557", "date": "2021-11-25", "guest": "The Beatles", "title": "Paul McCartney knew he'd never top The Beatles \u2014 and that's just fine with him", "question_index": 22, "text": "So the new documentary, which uses different footage from the film \"Let It Be\" - it kind of rewrites the narrative in ways that I haven't seen for myself 'cause I've only seen an excerpt of the film. The film hasn't been released yet. And I'm wondering if it rewrites - like, how you see it as rewriting the story of the end of the Beatles - of the final days of the Beatles.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) When I find myself in times of trouble, Mother Mary comes to me, speaking words of wisdom, let it be. And in my hour of darkness, she is standing right in front of me, speaking words of wisd"}
{"id": "1058017557", "date": "2021-11-25", "guest": "The Beatles", "title": "Paul McCartney knew he'd never top The Beatles \u2014 and that's just fine with him", "question_index": 23, "text": "He directed, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think that was something that I said to Peter Jackson originally, the director."}
{"id": "1058017557", "date": "2021-11-25", "guest": "The Beatles", "title": "Paul McCartney knew he'd never top The Beatles \u2014 and that's just fine with him", "question_index": 24, "text": "What was your reaction when he said that? Were you prepared for that? And how did you feel about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. When I knew Peter was going to look at all the footage, I said to him, I'm not sure I'm going to like this, Peter. I said - 'cause it's from a - it was from a very difficult period in my life. A"}
{"id": "1058017557", "date": "2021-11-25", "guest": "The Beatles", "title": "Paul McCartney knew he'd never top The Beatles \u2014 and that's just fine with him", "question_index": 25, "text": "And she's often accused - and maybe accused is too strong a word, but maybe it's not. But she's often accused of having broken up the band by distracting John away from the band and by totally changing his course of direction in a way that, you know, not everybody approved of, as if they had a vote. But - and you know - and then in the film, you see her sitting in on the session. How did you feel about her presence at the recording session and the rehearsals?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No way. We were gobsmacked. You know, we were very shocked. And it was - I think the first question, well - was in our minds, well, is this going to last? Or is this just something very John-ish, wher"}
{"id": "1058017557", "date": "2021-11-25", "guest": "The Beatles", "title": "Paul McCartney knew he'd never top The Beatles \u2014 and that's just fine with him", "question_index": 26, "text": "How hard was it to figure that out? What was your emotional state like in that period between the dissolution of the Beatles and figuring out what to do next?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, at the time, it was very difficult because, you know, we knew John was infatuated with Yoko. And having known John so long personally, I knew that - what he liked in a woman, you know? And h"}
{"id": "1058017557", "date": "2021-11-25", "guest": "The Beatles", "title": "Paul McCartney knew he'd never top The Beatles \u2014 and that's just fine with him", "question_index": 27, "text": "You know, I had asked you about how the new documentary changes the narrative of the last days of the Beatles. Seeing the film yourself, seeing this footage that hasn't been seen in, like - what? - 50 years, did it change the narrative in your mind? Were there things you had forgotten?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was quite difficult - you know? - 'cause - well, I didn't know what to do at all. And I didn't really have any brainy ideas, except, well, I don't know, if I want to continue in music, maybe I'll f"}
{"id": "1058017557", "date": "2021-11-25", "guest": "The Beatles", "title": "Paul McCartney knew he'd never top The Beatles \u2014 and that's just fine with him", "question_index": 28, "text": "Of course, George does walk out during part of it", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it did do because at the time, as I said, when it was me being blamed for the breakup of the Beatles, you - I kind of bought into that a little bit. It was everywhere. And although I knew it wasn'"}
{"id": "1058017557", "date": "2021-11-25", "guest": "The Beatles", "title": "Paul McCartney knew he'd never top The Beatles \u2014 and that's just fine with him", "question_index": 29, "text": ". He comes back, but he does walk out. So there - what was your reaction to that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it did do because at the time, as I said, when it was me being blamed for the breakup of the Beatles, you - I kind of bought into that a little bit. It was everywhere. And although I knew it wasn'"}
{"id": "1058017557", "date": "2021-11-25", "guest": "The Beatles", "title": "Paul McCartney knew he'd never top The Beatles \u2014 and that's just fine with him", "question_index": 30, "text": "You'll be 80 in June. And I'm wondering how that's changing what you want out of life, what gives your life pleasure and meaning.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, well, you know, I - it just reminded me that that happened, you know? And I know why it happened - because in the beginning, we were just four lads in a band. As we matured and as the whole thin"}
{"id": "1058017557", "date": "2021-11-25", "guest": "The Beatles", "title": "Paul McCartney knew he'd never top The Beatles \u2014 and that's just fine with him", "question_index": 31, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Family. You know, I have eight grandchildren. I have a fantastic wife. I have lovely kids. And I think, you know, that is definitely the focus. I'm very lucky to still enjoy creating music, so - and I"}
{"id": "1058017557", "date": "2021-11-25", "guest": "The Beatles", "title": "Paul McCartney knew he'd never top The Beatles \u2014 and that's just fine with him", "question_index": 32, "text": "You mention almost parenthetically that when the Beatles were together, there was a time when you were driving in a van through a blizzard along with your roadie. You couldn't even see the road. The van slid off the road and turned on its side. And you thought, well, this is it. And of course, you all survived. You weren't injured. Did you feel after that that you were granted this, like, second life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I just look older. And people - I think my birth certificate was falsified."}
{"id": "1058017557", "date": "2021-11-25", "guest": "The Beatles", "title": "Paul McCartney knew he'd never top The Beatles \u2014 and that's just fine with him", "question_index": 33, "text": "What got you out of that situation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think so. That wasn't so much the thought at the time. It was like, well, how are we going to get to Liverpool? And out of that, though, came for me what I always thought was one of our greate"}
{"id": "1058017557", "date": "2021-11-25", "guest": "The Beatles", "title": "Paul McCartney knew he'd never top The Beatles \u2014 and that's just fine with him", "question_index": 34, "text": "Are there, like, vulnerabilities, insecurities from your youth that, in spite of everything you've achieved, in spite of all your success, in spite of all your talent, in spite of all of the experience that comes with age, that stayed with you? Did any of those vulnerabilities and insecurities from way in the past stay with you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A lift - we got a lift from a lorry, and it took us through the blizzard and up to Liverpool. So something did happen, you know? You know, I mean, I know that's kind of very sort of stupid thing to sa"}
{"id": "1058017557", "date": "2021-11-25", "guest": "The Beatles", "title": "Paul McCartney knew he'd never top The Beatles \u2014 and that's just fine with him", "question_index": 35, "text": "Explain, please.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I think there are two answers to that. It's like no or all of them."}
{"id": "1058017557", "date": "2021-11-25", "guest": "The Beatles", "title": "Paul McCartney knew he'd never top The Beatles \u2014 and that's just fine with him", "question_index": 36, "text": "Go in both directions 'cause life is full of contradictions.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not quite sure which way to go."}
{"id": "1058017557", "date": "2021-11-25", "guest": "The Beatles", "title": "Paul McCartney knew he'd never top The Beatles \u2014 and that's just fine with him", "question_index": 37, "text": "But tell me about both of those directions of, like, all of those insecurities staying with you and none of them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Baby, you better believe it. But, you know, it's great, though, because of that, all the paradoxes and everything. It's - it is great. What did Shakespeare say - it was like, there are more "}
{"id": "1058017557", "date": "2021-11-25", "guest": "The Beatles", "title": "Paul McCartney knew he'd never top The Beatles \u2014 and that's just fine with him", "question_index": 38, "text": "So I want to close with your track from the latest album, \"McCartney III.\" I really like this track a lot, and I'd like to know, musically, how you went in this direction. The track is called \"Deep Deep Feeling.\" Now, you never say lyrically what the feeling is, and it's one of the songs from the new album that you don't mention in your new book of lyrics", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I don't know. I don't know. Who knows? Terry, who knows? I mean, you know, I think the answer really is, no. I think I've kind of worked most of them out, and I don't think there are a"}
{"id": "1058017557", "date": "2021-11-25", "guest": "The Beatles", "title": "Paul McCartney knew he'd never top The Beatles \u2014 and that's just fine with him", "question_index": 39, "text": "so - because the lyrics, they're - you're not literally saying very much in the song. Musically, what's going on is really interesting. This was recorded during the pandemic. You're playing all the instruments. You're singing all the parts. And there's just a lot of, like - the drum is really important in this, and I don't really think of you as a drummer. And then also, your falsetto is really interesting. And, you know, most people in their late 70s don't have a falsetto left.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I don't know. I don't know. Who knows? Terry, who knows? I mean, you know, I think the answer really is, no. I think I've kind of worked most of them out, and I don't think there are a"}
{"id": "1058017557", "date": "2021-11-25", "guest": "The Beatles", "title": "Paul McCartney knew he'd never top The Beatles \u2014 and that's just fine with him", "question_index": 40, "text": "I'd like you to say something about writing this song and what's going on musically because it's not the direction I think of.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(In falsetto) Well, I do."}
{"id": "1058017557", "date": "2021-11-25", "guest": "The Beatles", "title": "Paul McCartney knew he'd never top The Beatles \u2014 and that's just fine with him", "question_index": 41, "text": "I thank you so much for being on our show today. Just thank you immensely", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know what? Before you write a song, you often will have a thought about something. Not always, but in this case, you know, I just thought of this thing when - that happens in your body when someth"}
{"id": "1058017557", "date": "2021-11-25", "guest": "The Beatles", "title": "Paul McCartney knew he'd never top The Beatles \u2014 and that's just fine with him", "question_index": 42, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know what? Before you write a song, you often will have a thought about something. Not always, but in this case, you know, I just thought of this thing when - that happens in your body when someth"}
{"id": "1058017557", "date": "2021-11-25", "guest": "The Beatles", "title": "Paul McCartney knew he'd never top The Beatles \u2014 and that's just fine with him", "question_index": 43, "text": "Oh, right back at you. Thank you so much, and be well.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, listen, Terry. I mean, I listen to your show. I listen to NPR all the time. I'm not just blowing smoke here. So I do. So I want to thank, actually, everyone connected with the - with all these p"}
{"id": "1058017557", "date": "2021-11-25", "guest": "The Beatles", "title": "Paul McCartney knew he'd never top The Beatles \u2014 and that's just fine with him", "question_index": 44, "text": "Paul McCartney's new two-volume collection of his lyrics and the stories behind them is called \"The Lyrics.\" The new documentary about the making of the album \"Let It Be\" is called \"Get Back.\" It will premiere in three two-hour episodes over this holiday weekend, starting today on Disney+. If you'd like catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Now every time it rains, it sometimes gets too much. You know I feel the pain when I feel your loving touch. Emotion burns in the ocean of love. You've got that hot emotion. It burns an ocea"}
{"id": "1059395456", "date": "2021-11-26", "guest": "Russ Morash", "title": "Julia Child introduced Americans to French cuisine", "question_index": 0, "text": "Well, your family had a cook. Did your mother cook at all, and did you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I grew up in the teens and the '20s, when most people had - middle-class people had maids or had someone to help. And we had very sensible, New England-type food because my mother came from New Englan"}
{"id": "1059395456", "date": "2021-11-26", "guest": "Russ Morash", "title": "Julia Child introduced Americans to French cuisine", "question_index": 1, "text": "...Learn to cook at all?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, she..."}
{"id": "1059395456", "date": "2021-11-26", "guest": "Russ Morash", "title": "Julia Child introduced Americans to French cuisine", "question_index": 2, "text": "When you graduated from college, you went to New York with the hopes of becoming a novelist or of writing for a magazine.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, she really didn't cook at all. She knew how to make baking powder biscuits and Welsh rarebit. That's all she knew how to make. And I didn't do any cooking then at all."}
{"id": "1059395456", "date": "2021-11-26", "guest": "Russ Morash", "title": "Julia Child introduced Americans to French cuisine", "question_index": 3, "text": "Why did you - yeah?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Or going..."}
{"id": "1059395456", "date": "2021-11-26", "guest": "Russ Morash", "title": "Julia Child introduced Americans to French cuisine", "question_index": 4, "text": "Did you want to be a spy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Or writing for The New Yorker, at least getting into Time or Newsweek. Nobody wanted me for some strange reason. And then along came the war, and I got into the - I went down to Washington and eventua"}
{"id": "1059395456", "date": "2021-11-26", "guest": "Russ Morash", "title": "Julia Child introduced Americans to French cuisine", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did want to be a spy, and I thought I'd be a very good one because no one would think that someone as tall as I would possibly be a spy."}
{"id": "1059395456", "date": "2021-11-26", "guest": "Russ Morash", "title": "Julia Child introduced Americans to French cuisine", "question_index": 6, "text": "Well, you were telling us how being in the OSS led you overseas. You lived for a while in China. I think you lived for a while in India.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But of course, I ended up doing office - menial office work. I was in the files the whole time. Actually, though, it was fascinating as an organization to be in, and at least I knew everything that wa"}
{"id": "1059395456", "date": "2021-11-26", "guest": "Russ Morash", "title": "Julia Child introduced Americans to French cuisine", "question_index": 7, "text": "And then after the war, you were telling us you went to Washington, then went back to Paris - went to Paris and lived there. This was in the late 1940s.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It was Ceylon and China."}
{"id": "1059395456", "date": "2021-11-26", "guest": "Russ Morash", "title": "Julia Child introduced Americans to French cuisine", "question_index": 8, "text": "So you had wonderful food in Paris, food...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm hmm."}
{"id": "1059395456", "date": "2021-11-26", "guest": "Russ Morash", "title": "Julia Child introduced Americans to French cuisine", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well, how did eating wonderful food lead you to want to start preparing wonderful food?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it was just marvelous. It was still the old classical cuisine, and it was just delicious. I've never had such good food again as we had then."}
{"id": "1059395456", "date": "2021-11-26", "guest": "Russ Morash", "title": "Julia Child introduced Americans to French cuisine", "question_index": 10, "text": "When you co-wrote \"Mastering The Art Of French Cooking,\" did you see it as a way to introduce Americans to French cuisine?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was very much impressed with the food. And I just, having started in cooking after we got married, I thought that I would go to the Cordon Bleu. They had kind of classes for what we call fluffies. W"}
{"id": "1059395456", "date": "2021-11-26", "guest": "Russ Morash", "title": "Julia Child introduced Americans to French cuisine", "question_index": 11, "text": "When you moved back to the States and you wanted to continue French cooking, were there ingredients that you couldn't find in the States?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I was tremendously interested in French cuisine because it was - it's the only cuisine that has the real rules on how to cook. And I wanted - I guess I had started in quite late. I was about in m"}
{"id": "1059395456", "date": "2021-11-26", "guest": "Russ Morash", "title": "Julia Child introduced Americans to French cuisine", "question_index": 12, "text": "You became nationally famous in the United States for your cooking show. Were your early shows live?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, the - well, there were some differences. I think the cream was not as thick, but that was easy enough to make your own what they called creme fraiche by adding a little buttermilk or yogurt to hea"}
{"id": "1059395456", "date": "2021-11-26", "guest": "Russ Morash", "title": "Julia Child introduced Americans to French cuisine", "question_index": 13, "text": "Tell me one of the terrible disasters.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Nothing was live with the early shows because we were very, very - very strict budget. It was really live on tape. And so once we started in, we didn't stop at all unless there was a terrible disa"}
{"id": "1059395456", "date": "2021-11-26", "guest": "Russ Morash", "title": "Julia Child introduced Americans to French cuisine", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We did stop because it was a real mess. But every time we stopped, it would cost, I mean, several hundred dollars because it always took half an hour to get back again, and you would have to pay overt"}
{"id": "1059395456", "date": "2021-11-26", "guest": "Russ Morash", "title": "Julia Child introduced Americans to French cuisine", "question_index": 15, "text": "So were there often mistakes in the actual show that you would recover from, thinking that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So we had to stop for that. But otherwise we just didn't stop at all, then people - it's funny. People would say, well, I saw you drop the chicken on the floor, which, of course, I never did. All I "}
{"id": "1059395456", "date": "2021-11-26", "guest": "Russ Morash", "title": "Julia Child introduced Americans to French cuisine", "question_index": 16, "text": "...Well, this kind of thing happens all the time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1059395456", "date": "2021-11-26", "guest": "Russ Morash", "title": "Julia Child introduced Americans to French cuisine", "question_index": 17, "text": "I'm sure you must have seen the Dan Aykroyd \"Saturday Night Live.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I think some people would accuse me of doing things purposely. But anyone who's been in the kitchen knows that awful things happen all the time. And you just - if you're a cook, you have to make d"}
{"id": "1059395456", "date": "2021-11-26", "guest": "Russ Morash", "title": "Julia Child introduced Americans to French cuisine", "question_index": 18, "text": "Do you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. We have a tape of that."}
{"id": "1059395456", "date": "2021-11-26", "guest": "Russ Morash", "title": "Julia Child introduced Americans to French cuisine", "question_index": 19, "text": "What he'd always do is when he was doing you is take a little nips of wine", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's great fun."}
{"id": "1059395456", "date": "2021-11-26", "guest": "Russ Morash", "title": "Julia Child introduced Americans to French cuisine", "question_index": 20, "text": "until he got really giddy while he was cooking.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's great fun."}
{"id": "1059395456", "date": "2021-11-26", "guest": "Russ Morash", "title": "Julia Child introduced Americans to French cuisine", "question_index": 21, "text": "I want to ask you what you think of nouvelle cuisine.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then people accused me of that, too. No, I would never. I mean, that's a - would be a very gauche thing to do in public, wouldn't it?"}
{"id": "1059395456", "date": "2021-11-26", "guest": "Russ Morash", "title": "Julia Child introduced Americans to French cuisine", "question_index": 22, "text": "When you say food looks fingered, what do you mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nouvelle cuisine is through, I think. But I think it has been very useful in that it released people from a straitjacket. Then we've gone into silly seasons and so forth. But one thing that was very u"}
{"id": "1059395456", "date": "2021-11-26", "guest": "Russ Morash", "title": "Julia Child introduced Americans to French cuisine", "question_index": 23, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That means as though you'd taken your thumb and sort of wet your thumb and put these little things all around the plate in the shape of petals and so forth."}
{"id": "1059395456", "date": "2021-11-26", "guest": "Russ Morash", "title": "Julia Child introduced Americans to French cuisine", "question_index": 24, "text": "Thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Stephen Sondheim was such a brilliant and groundbreaking composer and lyricist that we couldn't confine our tribute to just one day. Today is Day 2 of our three-day tribute. Sondheim died last Friday at age 91. He started his career writing the lyrics for \"West Side Story\" and \"Gypsy\" and went on to write music and lyrics for such shows as \"A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Forum,\" \"Company,\" \"Follies,\" \"A Little Night Music,\" \"Sweeney Todd,\" \"Merrily We Roll Along,\" \"Sunday In The Park With George,\" \"Into The Woods\" and \"Passion.\" The interview today was recorded in October 2010, just a few months after the interview we featured yesterday. The occasion for this one was the publication of his book \"Finishing The Hat,\" which collected his lyrics from 1954 to '81 and told the stories behind them. It was the first of two volumes of his lyrics. We'll start with a song from the show that launched his Broadway career, \"West Side Story,\" the musical that Steven Spielberg has adapted into a film that opens this month. Sondheim wrote the lyrics. Leonard Bernstein wrote the music. This is the \"Jet Song.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 1, "text": "I asked Stephen Sondheim how he went about writing lyrics for a show with street gangs, singing and dancing to show tunes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As characters, singing) When you're a Jet, you're a Jet all the way from your first cigarette to your last dying day. When you're a Jet, if the spit hits the fan, you've got brothers around. You're a"}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 2, "text": "So one of the things I love about your book is that, you know, you not only tell the stories about the songs, you reprint the lyrics for alternate songs, for songs that you wrote before the final song was written or chosen, and you do that with the \"Jet Song.\" There were a couple of songs that you'd written lyrics for that weren't used.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was just imitating Arthur Lawrence's style. Arthur wrote the book, and he set - he made up a style, a kind of street talk that never existed because he knew that if he used actual street argot, it w"}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 3, "text": "And then there's another song that you wrote lyrics for called \"This Turf Is Ours.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Here, for example, here are a couple of lines from \"Mix\" (ph), which was the name of a song that we wrote, which was our - the second attempt at an opening song. The first attempt was a long, rambling"}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 4, "text": "Now, the song ends with, you know, we're going to beat every whole - every whole bugging gang on the whole bugging street on the bugging whole ever-loving street. Did you want to use the F-word there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's the one we wrote in Washington. And that was because people felt that \"Mix\" was too violent. So we wrote the \"Jet Song,\" which is very mildly threatening and menacing. And we got to Washington,"}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 5, "text": "Right. So after \"West Side Story,\" you wrote the lyrics for \"Gypsy\" to music by Jule Styne. A song from \"Gypsy\" I'd like you to talk about is \"Some People,\" which Ethel Merman sang in the original production. You know, I love the opening line - some people can get a thrill knitting sweaters and sitting still. Can you - do you remember how that image came to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure. I wanted this to be the first musical to use [expletive]. In fact, I first used it in \"Krupke\". I wanted the last line of \"Krupke\" to be - gee, Oficcer Krupke, [expletive] you. And we played"}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 6, "text": "Were there qualities you were writing for for Ethel Merman voice? Now, You weren't writing the music for this, you were writing the lyrics. But still, I mean, she has such a distinctive delivery.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. But I set up a rhyme scheme there of inner rhymes because I wanted one of the song to speed along, and inner rhymes help speed lines. So the knitting and sitting becomes a pattern for the song. So"}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 7, "text": "So I'm going to play \"Some People.\" Just tell me one more thing here. You talk about in your book how writing into a song, you know, from the dialogue - that transition into the song is the most difficult part. How did you solve the problem with \"Some People\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I mean, we knew we were writing for that kind of outsized personality that she's got. We assumed that she couldn't act because she had played all her life just low comedy and brassy songs. And thi"}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 8, "text": "So you were never happy with it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wrote a verse - well, actually, I didn't solve it, and the speech that leads into it reaches a high pitch, and then she starts it on a low note. And so I wrote - in Philadelphia, when we were trying"}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 9, "text": "OK. Well, let's just hear the song", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, still not."}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, still not."}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 11, "text": "So this is Ethel Merman from the original cast recording of \"Gypsy,\" with lyrics...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm terribly sorry. He's being taken to the hospital."}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 13, "text": "OK, so here it is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's bleeding from both ears. No, but anyway, she reaches that kind of pitch, and then she starts to sing."}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 14, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded with Stephen Sondheim in October 2010, after the publication of his book \"Finishing The Hat.\" We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Some people can get a thrill knitting sweaters and sitting still. That's OK for some people who don't know they're alive. Some people can thrive and bloom living life in a living room. That'"}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with Stephen Sondheim in October 2010 after the publication of his book \"Finishing The Hat,\" the first of two volumes collecting his lyrics and the stories behind them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Some people can get a thrill knitting sweaters and sitting still. That's OK for some people who don't know they're alive. Some people can thrive and bloom living life in a living room. That'"}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 16, "text": "You have some fascinating comments in your book about lyricists whose work you really admire and lyricists - I think our listeners will be surprised to hear you have a lot of criticisms of their work. And what surprised me the most was to read your criticisms of your mentor Oscar Hammerstein. And had you shared those criticisms in public before, or is this kind of, like, the first time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Some people can get a thrill knitting sweaters and sitting still. That's OK for some people who don't know they're alive. Some people can thrive and bloom living life in a living room. That'"}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no. No, I never - no, I never in public - and no, not at all. But since I was writing a book that is critical of my own work, I wanted to show the standards by which I, you know, write my own lyri"}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 18, "text": "Well, let me choose a couple of Hammerstein examples that you cite in the book. Oh, what a beautiful morning. Oh, what a beautiful day. You like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But mostly it - you know, I really disapprove of people who criticize - particularly practitioners who criticize other practitioners while they're alive. I think that's really bad form 'cause it alway"}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 19, "text": "Now, you contrast that - oh, I should preface this by saying the last time you were on our show, you talked about the, you know, really interesting harmonic changes in the Jerome Kern song \"All The Things You Are,\" for which Hammerstein wrote the lyrics. And - but you are very critical of Hammerstein's lyrics to the song, such as the line you are the promised kiss of springtime that makes the lonely winter seem long.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's not that. I point - that's not a question of whether you like or not. That's an example of how you underwrite a lyric. He knows that that doesn't read very excitingly on paper. But he also "}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 20, "text": "Oh, OK. You do it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Take the next line. Go ahead. Read it again. Read the second line because that's the one that clinches it."}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 21, "text": "Let's get to your show \"Follies,\" which is about a reunion of middle-aged men and women who performed in the \"Follies,\" or the people who were the girlfriends, boyfriends, spouses of those people who performed in the \"Follies.\" And so they're now middle aged, and it's part set in the present and part set in the past in the \"Follies\" era. And some of the songs you wrote for the show are reminiscent of the shows that come out of those revues, revues of the '30s and '40s, probably the '20s, too. Was it fun in a way to write in a style that wasn't yours?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You are the promised kiss of springtime that makes the lonely winter seem long. You are the breathless hush of evening that trembles on the brink of a lovely song. Those are all very pretty words, but"}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 22, "text": "And, like, the opening line - what will tomorrow bring, the pundits query - I can't imagine you writing that", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, always, always. It's great fun to imitate people you admire."}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 23, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, always, always. It's great fun to imitate people you admire."}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 24, "text": "OK. So let's hear \"You're Gonna Love Tomorrow\" from \"Follies.\" This is from the original cast recording.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, but - no, but that's exactly the style. You've hit exactly the right style. That's precisely the kind of thing that Ira Gershwin wrote. If you look through his lyrics, you'll find that - becau"}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 25, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded with Stephen Sondheim in October 2010, after the publication of \"Finishing The Hat,\" his first volume of collected lyrics. We'll hear more of that interview as we continue day two of our three-day tribute to Stephen Sondheim. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Young Phyllis and Young Ben, singing) Today was perfectly perfect, you say. Well, don't go away 'cause if you think you liked today, you're going to love tomorrow. You stick around, you'll see. An"}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today, we're continuing our tribute to Stephen Sondheim, the groundbreaking Broadway composer and lyricist. He died Friday at age 91. Before we return to the interview, let's hear more Sondheim music. This is a torch song I love called \"Losing My Mind.\" We'll hear Dorothy Collins from the original cast recording of his 1971 musical \"Follies.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Young Phyllis and Young Ben, singing) Today was perfectly perfect, you say. Well, don't go away 'cause if you think you liked today, you're going to love tomorrow. You stick around, you'll see. An"}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 27, "text": "Let's get back to the interview I recorded with Stephen Sondheim in October 2010, after the publication of his book \"Finishing The Hat,\" collecting his lyrics from 1954 to '81 and the stories behind them. It also has sidebars in which he shared his opinions of other lyricists.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Sally) The sun comes up. I think about you. The coffee cup - I think about you. I want you so. It's like I'm losing my mind. The morning ends - I think about you. I talk to friends. I think about "}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 28, "text": "Now in your sidebar about Ira Gershwin in your book, you describe him as rhyming poison", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Sally) The sun comes up. I think about you. The coffee cup - I think about you. I want you so. It's like I'm losing my mind. The morning ends - I think about you. I talk to friends. I think about "}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 29, "text": ". So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Sally) The sun comes up. I think about you. The coffee cup - I think about you. I want you so. It's like I'm losing my mind. The morning ends - I think about you. I talk to friends. I think about "}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 30, "text": "OK. And you say he makes you feel the sweat. He's often undone by his passion for rhyming, for which he sacrifices both ease and syntax. And you offer, as an example, an excerpt of the song \"How Long Has This Been Going On.\" (Reading) 'Neath the stars, at bazaars, often I've had to caress men. Five or $10 then, I'd collect for all those yes-men. Don't be sad, I must add, that they meant no more than chess-men. Comments on that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I don't describe him as rhyming poison. I describe - that is an aspect of his writing."}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 31, "text": "You loved Dorothy Fields and knew her, didn't even realize she was a songwriter until you were in your teens. And your father introduced her to the man who became her husband.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't need to comment on it. It's complete nonsense. It makes the ear tired to listen to it's so jammed with inner rhymes. And it is so oblique a way of saying something apparently simple, tho"}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 32, "text": "And you love lyrics of hers that are very colloquial, like \"Sunny Side Of The Street\" (ph).", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it was his best friend."}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 33, "text": "Let's get to your musical \"A Little Night Music.\" And I want to play \"Send In The Clowns.\" And I'll confess to you, this is a song - I love your songs. This is a song I never really felt much warmth for. I just never connected with it. And then seeing it in context in the show, I fell in love with it and then just kind of went back to the cast recording - original cast recording and started listening to it over and over again with Glynis Johns singing it. And you tell a very interesting story about how you wrote this song for her, playing to her strengths and weaknesses. Can you talk about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Again, simple - it seems so simple. You hear lyrics like that and you think, oh, I could write one of those. Well, you couldn't. And it's all the effort that goes into making something sound eff"}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 34, "text": "So this is Glynis Johns from the original cast recording of \"A Little Night Music\" singing \"Send In The Clowns.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The leading lady in the show is supposed to be charming and beautiful, beautiful enough, even though she's entering middle age, to be a rival to a beautiful young 18-year-old girl. That's the idea of "}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 35, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded with Stephen Sondheim in October 2010. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Desiree Armfeldt, singing) Isn't it rich? Are we a pair? Me here at last on the ground, you in mid-air. Send in the clowns. Isn't it bliss? Don't you approve? One who keeps tearing around, one who"}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 36, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with Stephen Sondheim in October 2010, after the publication of his book \"Finishing The Hat,\" the first of two volumes collecting his lyrics and the stories behind them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "SUNDAY IN THE PARK - PASSAGES\")"}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 37, "text": "I want to move on to \"Sweeney Todd,\" and I want to ask you about the writing for the chorus. There's a chorus that opens the show and they kind of - it's almost like a Greek chorus, in a way, 'cause they tell you what the story is going to be about. They narrate some of the action. And, you know, you write in the book about how thrilling it is to hear the sound of a full chorus, but how at the same time, it's so often unconvincing that everybody in a chorus would be having the same feeling at the same time. Like, you ask, did everyone in the Navy and South Pacific think there is nothing like a dame? You say, what about the misogynists in the group? Or if there were no misogynists, are there no homosexuals? So how did you write for a chorus in \"Sweeney Todd?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "SUNDAY IN THE PARK - PASSAGES\")"}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 38, "text": "So this was the time when you thought you could write for a chorus effectively.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well - but they're telling a story. They're not having an emotional thought. They're telling a story. It's quite a different thing."}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 39, "text": "So the first line in the lyric is attend the tale of Sweeney Todd. And you say that that's an example of how God is in the details, which is one of your prime rules of lyric writing. What's contained in that phrase?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure, absolutely, absolutely. But when they're all eating meat pies at the beginning of the second act in the number called \"God, That's Good!\" or when they're buying Pirelli's Miracle Elixir, the"}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 40, "text": "So here's the opening chorus from \"Sweeney Todd.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first of all, attend is an old-fashioned word. So right away, you know you're not in the 20th century and that the happenstance - the happy happenstance of the T sounds - attend the tale of Swee"}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 41, "text": "UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character, singing) Attend the tale of Sweeny Todd. His skin was pale, and his eye was odd. He shaved the faces of gentlemen who never thereafter were heard of again. He trod a path that few have trod, did Sweeney Todd, the Demon Barber of Fleet Street. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character, singing) He kept a shop in London Town of fancy clients and good renown. And what if none of their souls were saved? They went to their maker impeccably shaved by Sweeney, by Sweeney Todd, the Demon Barber of Fleet Street.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first of all, attend is an old-fashioned word. So right away, you know you're not in the 20th century and that the happenstance - the happy happenstance of the T sounds - attend the tale of Swee"}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 42, "text": "That's the opening chorus from \"Sweeney Todd.\" My guest, Stephen Sondheim, wrote the words and music. Now, you point out that none of your musicals elicited as extreme reaction, both extravagant accolades and contemptuous rage, as \"Sweeney\" did. Do you have a sense of why that was so?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As characters, singing) Swing your razor wide, Sweeney, hold it to the skies. Freely flows the blood of those who moralize."}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 43, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded with Stephen Sondheim in October 2010. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I really don't. Over a period of time, of course, that's become less true. There is much less contention about it now because it's been - it sort of has settled into the canon of musicals and it's"}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 44, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with Stephen Sondheim in October 2010 after the publication of his book \"Finishing The Hat,\" the first of two volumes collecting his lyrics and the stories behind them. The book covers the years 1954 to '81. Let me move on to \"Merrily We Roll Along.\" There's a beautiful song in \"Merrily\" that's sung twice, and I'm thinking of \"Not A Day Goes By.\" And both versions - each version has a different meaning because one's at the beginning of a love affair and the other's during a divorce.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I really don't. Over a period of time, of course, that's become less true. There is much less contention about it now because it's been - it sort of has settled into the canon of musicals and it's"}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 45, "text": "Can you talk about writing that song with two different meanings in mind?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 46, "text": "So we'll hear both versions of \"Not A Day Goes By\" from the 1994 York Theatre Revival.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I wrote the whole score knowing that it was going to go backwards in time. And I thought, what does that imply? Well, it implies that something that you and I sing today, 20 years from now, will"}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 47, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But that's the way to illustrate it."}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 48, "text": "That's two versions of \"Not A Day Goes By\" from Stephen Sondheim's musical \"Merrily We Roll Along.\" And my guest is Stephen Sondheim. He has a new book of his collected lyrics and the stories behind those lyrics called \"Finishing The Hat.\" When writing about working with Jule Styne on \"Gypsy,\" you say only superhuman confidence keeps you writing fearlessly into old age. Jule Styne was one of the few who had it in spades. Do you feel like you have that superhuman confidence to keep writing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Beth, singing) Till the days go by."}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 49, "text": "But you do plan on keep writing - on keeping writing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not really, not really. I mean, I'm - I want to get back to the piano as soon as I finish the second volume. But no, I don't have that - I don't have that drive, and I don't have that eagerness th"}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 50, "text": "Well, I want to thank you so much for coming back to FRESH AIR and for talking with us again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure. Oh, sure. Oh, sure."}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 51, "text": "Congratulations on the new book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "1060848995", "date": "2021-12-02", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 2)", "question_index": 52, "text": "The interview we heard with Stephen Sondheim was recorded in October 2010 after the publication of his book \"Finishing The Hat.\" He died last Friday at the age of 91. Tomorrow, on the third and final day of our Sondheim tribute, from our archive, we'll hear from James Lapine, who wrote the books for three Sondheim musicals - \"Sunday In The Park With George,\" \"Into The Woods\" and \"Passion\" - and Stephen Colbert and Lin-Manuel Miranda, who each talked about performing in Sondheim musicals. I hope you'll join us. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, OK, thank you for that, too."}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 0, "text": "So let's talk about \"Company.\" There's a song in \"Company\" that you sing called \"Sorry-Grateful.\" And it's a song about the ambivalence this character has about being married. And Neil Patrick Harris' character is the single guy in this, and all of his friends are, like, married couples, and they're actually all miserable, but they're trying to convince him he needs to get married. So he's been visiting you and your wife in this, and you've just been bickering and fighting the whole time. And then he says to you - and we'll hear what he says to you as you sing this song about the ambivalence of marriage, \"Sorry-Grateful.\" So here is Stephen Colbert. The first line you're going to hear is Neil Patrick Harris.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University in New Jersey, sitting in for Terry Gross. Today, we're concluding our multi-day tribute to Broadway compose"}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 1, "text": "You sing with emotion and vulnerability in that song, things that you can never show on your own program, \"The Colbert Report.\" It's such a different side of you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Harry) Coming, darling."}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 2, "text": "Really - musicals in particular?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is. It is at that. It's what I imagined I would be doing when I went to theater school."}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 3, "text": "What's different about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, just anything on - anything in theatre and musicals as part of it, I suppose. And it was such a bungee into an old dream to go do something like that 'cause I went to Northwestern University, an"}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 4, "text": "So how did you get the part? Who said, get Stephen Colbert 'cause it's not like you went and auditioned, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not being a music theorist, I'm not sure whether I could explain technically what's different, but there is a complexity of the note changes - like, where you're going next - in the song in Sondheim t"}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Well, you know, I do the show 161 days a year, and sometimes I don't know who the guest is coming up. And I looked up from my desk one day, and I saw on the grid a few days ahead of me, it said St"}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 6, "text": "You know what, before you go any further, we have that clip right here. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I actually put effort into Stephen Sondheim 'cause I knew it wouldn't be an easy interview because you never see him being interviewed. And I assumed he doesn't like it or something. And one of my wri"}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yeah, we have it right here. So before you describe it more, why don't we actually hear it? And then we can talk more about how you got the part in Stephen Sondheim's \"Company.\" So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, you do?"}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 8, "text": "So here's Stephen Sondheim interviewed on \"The Colbert Report.\" And you wrote a new ending to his most famous song in this, and let's hear how that played out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Great."}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 9, "text": "I love that because, like, at the end, you really genuinely tell him how much you like him. And like you say, you know, you don't usually do that on your show because you have to look superior to your guests", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The book is \"Finishing The Hat.\""}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The book is \"Finishing The Hat.\""}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 11, "text": "That's right. And that's a Sondheim lyric you're quoting at the end, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly - or feel superior, at least."}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is. It's - I'm imperfectly quoting it. But that's from \"Sunday In The Park With George.\" That's the boatman who says to George, you and me, pal, we're the loonies. Did you know that? (Singing) Bet "}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 13, "text": "OK. Well, look; I've interviewed Stephen Sondheim, I think, four times. And he never asked me to be in one of his musicals. So what did you do", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I love \"Sunday In The Park With George.\" I saw that when I was just starting theater school. And I remember singing \"Finishing A Hat\" - or at least reading the lyrics to \"Finishing A Hat\" and othe"}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 14, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I love \"Sunday In The Park With George.\" I saw that when I was just starting theater school. And I remember singing \"Finishing A Hat\" - or at least reading the lyrics to \"Finishing A Hat\" and othe"}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 15, "text": "What did I do wrong", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, here's - I did nothing. I did nothing."}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 16, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, here's - I did nothing. I did nothing."}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 17, "text": "You got to be in a production of \"Merrily We Roll Along,\" which is a great Sondheim musical that always needs to be revived because the original Broadway run was so very short. And so this was a city center - a New York City Center Encores production.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Lin-Manuel Miranda won the Tony Award for his first Broadway musical, \"In The Heights,\" which was set in a Latino neighborhood in New York. His next musical, \"Hamilton,\" was a pheno"}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 18, "text": "And, in fact, I want to play just a little bit of you in that. So you're playing a lyricist who works with a composer. But the composer has kind of, like, sold out. And, you know, he's just doing, like, commercial work. And the lyricist now has come to think of the composer, instead of just being his friend and collaborator, Franklin Shepard, he thinks of him now as, like, Franklin Shepard, Inc. because he's so much about...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct."}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 19, "text": "...Like, deals and making money. So in this scene, like, you're getting interviewed on TV. And you're just kind of pretty bitter about the whole collaboration with this composer. So here's my guest, Lin...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yeah. Here's my guest, Lin-Manuel Miranda.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Buzz, buzz, buzz."}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 21, "text": "UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character) Now, how do you two work together?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Buzz, buzz, buzz."}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 22, "text": "OK. That's my guest, Lin-Manuel Miranda", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm surprised at how much I like this."}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 23, "text": "the production of the New York City Center Encores Great American Musical series in a production of Stephen Sondheim's \"Merrily We Roll Along.\" You're so much fun on that. And I really think doing hip-hop rhymes is great preparation for that lyric.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm surprised at how much I like this."}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 24, "text": "For singing that, yeah. And Sondheim - he's just, like, the most brilliant lyricist. But what are some of the things you feel you learned either from talking with Sondheim - because I know he also gave you feedback on \"Hamilton\" before you actually put it onstage. So what are things you've learned from actually talking to him or just from, like, getting intimately acquainted with his work?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolute, it is."}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 25, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A couple of things. First of all, I am one of so many composers he's taken the time to encourage. And I feel very grateful to be one of many. I'm by no means unique in that I've gotten words of encour"}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 26, "text": "The Sondheim song that's closest to comic rap is, in my opinion, \"Not Getting Married,\" which is done...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that moment kept me nourished for months, you know, when the writing was tough, when I couldn't figure out how to end those first four lines of \"My Shot.\" The notion that Sondheim threw up his hea"}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 27, "text": "Yeah. Do more. Do more.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) Thank you all. Is everybody here? Because if everybody's here, I'd like to thank you all for coming to the wedding."}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 28, "text": "Anyone who could do that song has an incredible tongue", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) I'd appreciate your going even more. I mean, you must have lots of better things to do, and not a word of it to Paul. Remember Paul, you know, the man I'm going to marry? But I'm not, becaus"}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 29, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) I'd appreciate your going even more. I mean, you must have lots of better things to do, and not a word of it to Paul. Remember Paul, you know, the man I'm going to marry? But I'm not, becaus"}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 30, "text": "It's so tricky. It's so fast. And the words are so - just kind of, like, dense and funny and rhymey (ph). And so obviously, you know that song by heart, more or less. And have you thought about that song a lot in terms of intricate rhyme schemes and what the human voice is capable of without totally tripping up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 31, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "honestly, I think about that song more when people ask me, how did you think rap was going to work on Broadway? And I go, nothing in my show is faster than \"Getting Married Today\" in \"Company.\""}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 32, "text": "So did you learn that intuitively? Or did Sondheim tell you that that was his intention, to stay away from as many H's as possible and to keep it to things that could easily be said?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I don't know what you're talking about. There's so much precedent for the work in both, quote, unquote, \"hip-hop\" and not in terms of patter for the stage. But, you know, what's amazing about \"Gett"}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 33, "text": "It's interesting that the opening song is from the point of view of the Bernadette Peters character, the model who is in the sun, very hot, very uncomfortable in modeling for the genius painter", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of our salute to Stephen Sondheim, who died last week at age 91. Now we hear from one of Sondheim's most important collaborat"}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 34, "text": "Georges Seurat. But in the meantime, she's just kind of, like, suffering and bearing it.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of our salute to Stephen Sondheim, who died last week at age 91. Now we hear from one of Sondheim's most important collaborat"}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 35, "text": "So why don't we hear \"Sunday In The Park,\" the opening song from \"Sunday In The Park With George\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think, first of all, he was - he may have been a genius, and she may have known that at the time, but the one thing Seurat never was a success. He never actually even sold a painting in his li"}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 36, "text": "That's the opening song from \"Sunday In The Park With George,\" music and lyrics by Stephen Sondheim, and the book for the show written by my guest, James Lapine, who also directed the show. And now he has a new book called \"Putting It Together: How Stephen Sondheim And I Created \"Sunday In The Park With George.\" So in what you had written - correct me if I'm wrong here - You had written the words like for her character, a dribble of sweat. And Sondheim said, no, no, no, I can't use dribble. And he changed it to trickle. So tell me what you think of that. What went through your mind when he said, not dribble, trickle?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Dot, singing) Artists are bizarre, fixed, cold. That's you, George. You're bizarre, fixed, cold. I like that in a man - fixed, cold. God, it's hot out here. Well, there are worse things than stari"}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 37, "text": "Can you think of a revelation that came to you from something Sondheim said that you may not have realized or thought of without him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I had only done one musical prior to this. In fact, I was fairly new to the theater in general, having really come to it quite late in my 20s. And I was just fascinated working with him at e"}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 38, "text": "OK. So that's really interesting. Can you think of one of Sondheim's songs that you and he agreed should be an emotion or a thematic point that was expressed in the show but would sound too corny or sentimental or on the nose if it was actually spoken as opposed to sung?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think what I learned most from him is the marriage of music to spoken word. And the one maybe major thing he said to me was, let me take care of theme. I can put things in a song that no one will bl"}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 39, "text": "And part of what this song is about is how difficult it is to create a work of art. But when you've created it, there's something there that had never been there before. You created something that didn't exist before. And if you made that in a speech, it might sound like a little much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would say \"Finishing The Hat\" is a perfect example of that, of a song that comes at a perfect place in the act, that lets an audience see this kind of cold, distant character and allows us to unders"}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 40, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, corny."}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 41, "text": "OK. Well, let's hear it. So this is from \"Sunday In The Park With George.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Corny city. Well, also there's another level to that song, which is him examining what he's given up to make something, what the choices are, what you do with your time and your passion and how you"}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 42, "text": "And now I want to ask you about \"Passion.\" And to give the shortest version, it's about a soldier who's having a passionate affair with a beautiful woman who's sent to a remote outpost where the cousin of the commander is a very sickly - I mean, she's very ill woman who is considered very ugly by the other soldiers there. And she basically lives in books. She reads to live. And by the end, the main character, the soldier, gets sick, too, and they actually develop a loving relationship. She's fallen in love with him much earlier, and he's done everything in his power to reject her earlier in the musical. So what is - can you choose a song from that that you feel really connected to in terms of contributing to it, some lines or it was based on a monologue that you wrote?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview from earlier this year with James Lapine, who collaborated with Stephen Sondheim on the musicals \"Into The Woods,\" \"Sunday In The Park With Georg"}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 43, "text": "So let's hear \"Loving You\" from the musical \"Passion.\" And this is Donna Murphy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there's a song that was the last one that came in, again another kind of beautiful short song that Steve wrote called \"Loving You.\" And we were having a horrible time in previews. The audience w"}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 44, "text": "That was Donna Murphy singing \"Loving You\" from the musical \"Passion\" with music and lyrics by Stephen Sondheim. The book for the show was written by my guest, James Lapine.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Fosca, singing) Loving you is not a choice. It's who I am. Loving you is not a choice and not much reason to rejoice, but it gives me purpose, gives me voice to say to the world this is why I live"}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 45, "text": "Are you and Sondheim still good friends?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then the show starts, and about 30 minutes in, they're squirming in their seats. And, you know, 40 minutes in, they're trying to poke their wives and get the hell out of there. But it asks a lot o"}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 46, "text": "I'm glad to hear that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God, yeah. I consider him one of my absolute closest friends."}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 47, "text": "In \"Sweeney Todd,\" I think the first sound we hear is that steam whistle, a really...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)"}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 48, "text": "...Like, discordant, shrill, alarming steam whistle that certainly sets the tone for, you know, a musical that's about very alarming thoughts...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct, correct."}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 49, "text": "...And feelings and actions...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 50, "text": "...Including murder and revenge. Well, did you actually have a steam whistle...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 51, "text": "...In the orchestra?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 52, "text": "Can you think of a moment in a musical that you conducted where every night, you'd say to yourself, this is what it's about for me; this is the kind of musical feeling, the kind of Broadway feeling that I live for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What it said - in the opening thing on the top, it said, whistle. Factory whistle is what it said. So we sat down and had discussions about what a factory whistle was. The thing that popped into my mi"}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 53, "text": "Let's listen to that duet between Mandy Patinkin and Bernadette Peters from \"Sunday In The Park With George.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I feel kind of greedy at this point because I've had such great experience and great times in the past and had an opportunity to do so much artistically because of those two guys. You know, everything"}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 54, "text": "That's \"We Do Not Belong Together\" from \"Sunday In The Park With George.\" Conducting that was one of music director Paul Gemignani's favorite Broadway experiences. I asked him to think of another.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Dot, singing) No. You are complete, George. You are your own. We do not belong together. You are complete, George. You all alone. I am unfinished. I am diminished with or without you. We do not be"}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 55, "text": "\"Friends\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The first thing that Sweeney sings in \"Sweeney Todd\" to his razors, that moment sticks in my mind."}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 56, "text": "This is the moment when the barber Sweeney Todd, who's been put in prison, is out of prison. He's seeking revenge against the judge who locked him up and shouldn't have. And the judge is now planning to marry Sweeney's daughter. It's an ugly story. But finally, Sweeney's reunited with his razors, and he's going to use them not only to be a barber, but to take his revenge. And he sings this beautiful song about how he's reunited with his friends. But what he's really thinking about is revenge.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Friends,\" yeah."}
{"id": "1061190965", "date": "2021-12-03", "guest": "Neil Patrick Harris", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Broadway legend Stephen Sondheim (Part 3)", "question_index": 57, "text": "What's so wonderful about this moment for you, conducting it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1062683521", "date": "2021-12-09", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "Journalist says Republicans now have more reliable ways to overturn election results", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. In a new article titled \"Trump's Next Coup Has Already Begun,\" published in The Atlantic, my guest, journalist Barton Gellman, warns January 6 was just practice. We face a serious risk that American democracy as we know it will come to an end in 2024. The attempt by Trump and other Republicans to overturn the results of the 2020 election failed. But Gellman reports that Republicans have been building an apparatus for election theft. They've studied Trump's crusade to overturn the 2020 results. They've noted points of failure and have taken steps to avoid failure next time by working to change whose votes are counted, who oversees the election, who chooses the electors and what happens in the courts. Gellman also warns that Republicans have set lose tens of millions of aggrieved Trump supporters who are prone to conspiracy thinking, embrace violence and reject Democratic defeat. He writes Trump has built the first American mass political movement that is ready to fight by any means necessary, including bloodshed, for its cause. Gellman sounded the alarm before the 2020 election in articles titled \"The Election That Could Break America\" and \"How Trump Could Attempt A Coup.\" Barton Gellman is a staff writer at The Atlantic and a former Washington Post reporter. He won the 2014 Pulitzer Prize for Public Service for his coverage of the National Security Agency and Edward Snowden. He's the author of the books \"Dark Mirror: Edward Snowden And The American Surveillance State\" and \"Angler: The Cheney Vice Presidency.\" We recorded our interview yesterday. Barton Gellman, welcome back to FRESH AIR. So, you know, a lot of people have said Trump tried so many different paths to overturn the 2020 election, but there was always someone who refused to go along with it. So democracy works. But you say in nearly every battlespace of the war to control the count of the next election - statehouses, state election authorities, courthouses, Congress and the Republican Party apparatus - Trump's position has improved since a year ago. And Republicans have identified the weak points in the election apparatus and are exploiting them. Is there a master plan or a group of master planners who are overseeing the big picture? Or is this just a lot of people working independently at whatever level they're on?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1062683521", "date": "2021-12-09", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "Journalist says Republicans now have more reliable ways to overturn election results", "question_index": 1, "text": "You write that the strategic object of nearly every move by the Trump team was to get Republican state legislatures in states that Biden won to seize control of the results and appoint Trump electors instead and all of the other objectives in the courts, in the state election panels, the Justice Department, the vice president's office was to reach that goal of substituting Trump electors for Biden electors at the state level. Is that still the strategy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's much more the latter. It's a kind of accumulation of local and state Republican operatives who are on their own initiative driven by the base going after all sources of impediment and dissent tha"}
{"id": "1062683521", "date": "2021-12-09", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "Journalist says Republicans now have more reliable ways to overturn election results", "question_index": 2, "text": "So what is the legal strategy that would allow Republican-controlled state legislatures to basically overturn the results of the election in that state and appoint Republican electors to the electoral college instead of the Democrat electors that were elected in the state?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's exactly the strategy. Electors are the currency of a presidential election. You have to get to 270, and that's how you win the presidency. And Trump's strategy last time and next time is to tak"}
{"id": "1062683521", "date": "2021-12-09", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "Journalist says Republicans now have more reliable ways to overturn election results", "question_index": 3, "text": "So let's look some more at this Republican strategy to potentially overturn the Democratic electors and substitute a slate of Republican ones. What would it take to successfully do that? How do you create a slate of Republican electors that are legitimate if the Democratic electors have won?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It goes back to the days of the founders. In the first years after the Constitution was written in the first elections, under Article 2 of the Constitution, electors for the presidency were selected, "}
{"id": "1062683521", "date": "2021-12-09", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "Journalist says Republicans now have more reliable ways to overturn election results", "question_index": 4, "text": "So was Katie Hobbs, the secretary of state in Arizona who you mentioned - was she one of the people who have been pushed out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the scenario goes something like this. Take the state of - suppose it's Arizona in 2020. The people vote. Biden wins the state by a narrow margin of - I don't actually remember. It was something on"}
{"id": "1062683521", "date": "2021-12-09", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "Journalist says Republicans now have more reliable ways to overturn election results", "question_index": 5, "text": "How close did any state come to overturning a Biden victory in that state in 2020?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, she hasn't been pushed out. She's been bypassed. The Republican state legislature passed a law that says only until the date of the next election, in case a Republican wins, the secretary of state"}
{"id": "1062683521", "date": "2021-12-09", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "Journalist says Republicans now have more reliable ways to overturn election results", "question_index": 6, "text": "You know, most people, I think, don't even know who is in their statehouse. And it's so interesting to see how much power state legislatures have when most voters don't even know much about who those legislators are.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was a crescendo of pressure from Trump in the days leading up to January 6, which is the day that Congress actually counted the electoral votes. And state legislators had been resistant. They we"}
{"id": "1062683521", "date": "2021-12-09", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "Journalist says Republicans now have more reliable ways to overturn election results", "question_index": 7, "text": "Well, let's take a break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Barton Gellman. His new article in The Atlantic is titled \"Trump's Next Coup Has Already Begun.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I'm going to want to take considerably more interest in who those people are."}
{"id": "1062683521", "date": "2021-12-09", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "Journalist says Republicans now have more reliable ways to overturn election results", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Barton Gellman. His new article in The Atlantic is titled \"Trump's Next Coup Has Already Begun.\" Gellman is a staff writer at The Atlantic. You say that Republicans are already preparing court strategies, legal strategies for overturning the results of the 2024 election if a Democrat wins the election. What do you know about what those strategies are?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I'm going to want to take considerably more interest in who those people are."}
{"id": "1062683521", "date": "2021-12-09", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "Journalist says Republicans now have more reliable ways to overturn election results", "question_index": 9, "text": "Since having a Republican-controlled state legislature is so essential to the strategy for 2024, what is the Republican plan to try to ensure that Republicans control state legislatures in swing states?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first of all, just to set the stage, these strategies are fundamentally opportunistic in that they take advantage of the fact that there are closely contested states in the presidential election"}
{"id": "1062683521", "date": "2021-12-09", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "Journalist says Republicans now have more reliable ways to overturn election results", "question_index": 10, "text": "We talked a little bit about this, but election officials who served as guardrails when Trump was trying to overturn the results of the election - many of them were just, like, pushed out of the way. And one example of that is Brad Raffensperger, who was Georgia's secretary of state. And he refused to, quote, \"find\" the votes that Trump said he needed to win the state. This was that infamous phone call where Trump said, all I need you to do is find, you know, the number of votes I need to win Georgia. So Raffensperger was censured. He was primaried. He was stripped of his power as chief election officer. What's he doing now? Does he still have a position?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The interesting thing about a state legislature is the state legislature also gets to draw the district lines when apportioning votes inside the state. So they are gerrymandering the - not only the U."}
{"id": "1062683521", "date": "2021-12-09", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "Journalist says Republicans now have more reliable ways to overturn election results", "question_index": 11, "text": "My guest is Barton Gellman. His new article in The Atlantic is titled \"Trump's Next Coup Has Already Begun: January 6 Was Practice.\" We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Brad Raffensperger is still secretary of state. He is running for reelection. A Trump-backed candidate is opposing him in the Republican primary. This Trump-backed candidate says that Raffensperger sh"}
{"id": "1062683521", "date": "2021-12-09", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "Journalist says Republicans now have more reliable ways to overturn election results", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Barton Gellman. He's a staff writer at The Atlantic. His new article is titled \"Trump's Next Coup Has Already Begun.\" And it's in part about how January 6 was just practice. He warns that we face a serious risk that American democracy as we know it will come to an end in 2024. He says the attempt by Trump and other Republicans to overturn the results of the 2020 election failed. But Republicans have been building an apparatus for election theft, finding ways they hope to avoid all the obstacles that stood in the way of subverting the results of the 2020 election. The infrastructure of elections is being changed in many states. And it's happening quickly. It's happening beneath the radar for many people. Not everybody's paying attention to this. And then it remains in place, right? I mean, it's - what are the odds that these changes will just kind of stay in place and that the whole nature of elections is going to change for a really long time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Brad Raffensperger is still secretary of state. He is running for reelection. A Trump-backed candidate is opposing him in the Republican primary. This Trump-backed candidate says that Raffensperger sh"}
{"id": "1062683521", "date": "2021-12-09", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "Journalist says Republicans now have more reliable ways to overturn election results", "question_index": 13, "text": "And what you're describing, I mean, it's happening in a significant number of states. You say, in at least 15 states, Republicans have advanced new laws to shift authority over elections from governors and career officials in the executive branch to the state legislature. And that 15 states is a lot of states. And I assume this includes swing states because those are the states that really count in the plan, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A healthy democracy needs fair referees and counts on the idea that fundamentals of things like counting votes can be done reliably by nonpartisan officials. That's the tradition. That's what distingu"}
{"id": "1062683521", "date": "2021-12-09", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "Journalist says Republicans now have more reliable ways to overturn election results", "question_index": 14, "text": "Do you think the strategy by Trump supporters to recount votes even when Republicans won is to just normalize the idea of, no, we do recounts, that's what we do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "and claiming that Democrats committed fraud. Although, why they would commit fraud in order to lose the state is left mysterious. But, yeah, there are some Democratic states and some Republican states"}
{"id": "1062683521", "date": "2021-12-09", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "Journalist says Republicans now have more reliable ways to overturn election results", "question_index": 15, "text": "So in terms of who oversees the elections, we've talked about the state legislature. We've talked a little bit about secretaries of state who have been undermined. Nonpartisan election officials at local levels have been driven out by fear because they've been attacked, they've been threatened by Trump supporters. So - like, that's another big change that we're facing. So for the people who are being, like, chased out with threats to their safety, who are they being replaced with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's really to normalize the idea that the system can't be trusted, that the election system is riving by fraud, that nothing is trustworthy and that voters shouldn't trust the administration of elect"}
{"id": "1062683521", "date": "2021-12-09", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "Journalist says Republicans now have more reliable ways to overturn election results", "question_index": 16, "text": "They are going from the ground up. Well, let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Barton Gellman. His new article in The Atlantic is titled \"Trump's Next Coup Has Already Begun.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this is hard to follow because there are, I want to say, on the order of 10,000 election authorities in the United States, most commonly at the county level. And then there are the precinct leve"}
{"id": "1062683521", "date": "2021-12-09", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "Journalist says Republicans now have more reliable ways to overturn election results", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Barton Gellman. His new article in The Atlantic is titled \"Trump's Next Coup Has Already Begun.\" Gellman is a staff writer at The Atlantic. You think President Biden isn't taking the threat of election subversion seriously enough. What would you like to see him do? What could he do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this is hard to follow because there are, I want to say, on the order of 10,000 election authorities in the United States, most commonly at the county level. And then there are the precinct leve"}
{"id": "1062683521", "date": "2021-12-09", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "Journalist says Republicans now have more reliable ways to overturn election results", "question_index": 18, "text": "You write that Trump has built the first American mass political movement that's ready to fight by any means necessary, including bloodshed, for its cause, and its cause is Trump. So I guess, you know, January 6 is evidence of that, but you say the extremists who support him and many of the extremists who are at the insurrection and broke into - you know, who rioted and broke into the Capitol, they don't follow the usual demographic patterns for those kinds of extremists who are willing to use violence. In what ways don't they fit the pattern of demographics?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a hard problem. What I know is that it's going to require hard effort. Biden gave a speech in July. He went to the National Constitution Center in Philadelphia and stood underneath a gigantic rep"}
{"id": "1062683521", "date": "2021-12-09", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "Journalist says Republicans now have more reliable ways to overturn election results", "question_index": 19, "text": "We've spent a lot of time talking about how Republicans are trying to change the electoral system to their advantage, and Trump has so much to do with this. It's fascinating to me because Trump basically knew so little about politics. He wasn't - like, Biden has been - you know, had been in Congress for so long. He knew how Congress works. He knew - he knows how to get votes. He knows how to count votes. Trump knew none of this, and yet he is reshaping the American political system. He is reshaping the American electoral system. And I keep wondering, how has he managed to do that knowing so little about how the system works?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a great question. One way we know that this Trump political movement is different is by looking at who the January 6 rioters were. If you look at people who are charged with political violence "}
{"id": "1062683521", "date": "2021-12-09", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "Journalist says Republicans now have more reliable ways to overturn election results", "question_index": 20, "text": "You've been reporting on politics and power for many years now, including during the George W. Bush administration. Do you see your approach to journalism changing in an era where you're facing lies that have accumulated a lot of strength, where, like, millions and millions of people believe things that aren't true and are changing America with those false beliefs, with those counterfactual beliefs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He still knows very little about how the system works. And he's not the mastermind of all these changes, he's the motivator. He has created this mass movement of very angry people. And I just have to "}
{"id": "1062683521", "date": "2021-12-09", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "Journalist says Republicans now have more reliable ways to overturn election results", "question_index": 21, "text": "Bart Gellman, thank you so much for talking with us. And thank you for your reporting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. There has been a change. You're accustomed, as a mainstream journalist, to not taking sides in a political dispute and not being for or against any political party. But what we're for as journal"}
{"id": "1062683521", "date": "2021-12-09", "guest": "Barton Gellman", "title": "Journalist says Republicans now have more reliable ways to overturn election results", "question_index": 22, "text": "Barton Gellman's new article in The Atlantic is titled \"Trump's Next Coup Has Already Begun: January 6 Was Practice.\" He's a staff writer at The Atlantic. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having me."}
{"id": "1062709348", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Rita Moreno", "title": "Actors Rita Moreno and George Chakiris remember the original 'West Side Story'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Did you have to do anything to look more, act more or sound more Puerto Rican?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The reason was that there simply weren't enough Hispanic - forget Puerto Rican - Hispanic male and female dancers at the time who could do the kind of professional job that was needed for Jerome Robbi"}
{"id": "1062709348", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Rita Moreno", "title": "Actors Rita Moreno and George Chakiris remember the original 'West Side Story'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Rita Moreno, I want to ask you about another scene. There's a scene toward the end of the movie after your boyfriend Bernardo has been stabbed. Maria, the Natalie Wood character, asks you to send a message to her boyfriend Tony. And this is right after the \"I Have A Love\" duet.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "who looked like he had fallen into a bucket of mud, I just started - I started to giggle."}
{"id": "1062709348", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Rita Moreno", "title": "Actors Rita Moreno and George Chakiris remember the original 'West Side Story'", "question_index": 2, "text": "And so you go to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1062709348", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Rita Moreno", "title": "Actors Rita Moreno and George Chakiris remember the original 'West Side Story'", "question_index": 3, "text": "...To the candy store to give a message to the owner there. And all the Jets are hanging out there. And they start taunting you, and the implication is that they've raped you, too. I think that's the implication.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The candy store."}
{"id": "1062709348", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Rita Moreno", "title": "Actors Rita Moreno and George Chakiris remember the original 'West Side Story'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes."}
{"id": "1062709348", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Rita Moreno", "title": "Actors Rita Moreno and George Chakiris remember the original 'West Side Story'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Right. But it's all kind of stylized and choreographed. Can you talk about that scene?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, if it had been done a few years ago, that's what would have happened."}
{"id": "1062709348", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Rita Moreno", "title": "Actors Rita Moreno and George Chakiris remember the original 'West Side Story'", "question_index": 6, "text": "When you were able to start shooting the film again, do you feel like that personal connection deepened your performance? Or did it get in the way of it because it was so upsetting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "surface. We rehearsed that number for - as we did with everything in that movie - for weeks. And then we got to the shooting which took about - I would say about seven days. And at some point, having "}
{"id": "1062709348", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Rita Moreno", "title": "Actors Rita Moreno and George Chakiris remember the original 'West Side Story'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Can you talk a little bit about the choreography that Jerry Robbins worked out for the rape scene?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it - no. It didn't get in the way. It - I think it deepened it. And by the time we got to the part of the scene where the doc, the candy store owner, comes in and stops the rape, the symbolic rape"}
{"id": "1062709348", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Rita Moreno", "title": "Actors Rita Moreno and George Chakiris remember the original 'West Side Story'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Oh, wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Jerry had an ability, which is rare even now, to choreograph for character. In other words, any step that Anita might do, say, in \"America\" or in the \"Mambo!\" at the gym was not a step that he would e"}
{"id": "1062709348", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Rita Moreno", "title": "Actors Rita Moreno and George Chakiris remember the original 'West Side Story'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Let's start with a scene from \"West Side Story\" in which you talk about in the documentary. And I want to play an excerpt of the song \"America.\" But before we do, I want to talk about it. So this is a song in which the Puerto Rican men and women are singing about what they think of Puerto Rico. And the women are kind of saying, hey, America is better. And the men are saying, America really mistreats us. So you asked Stephen Sondheim to change a lyric, a line or two, that was in the Broadway show.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. The new film adaptation of \"West Side Story,\" directed by Steven Spielberg, is in theaters today. And we're listening back to our interviews with two actors who won Academy Awards f"}
{"id": "1062709348", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Rita Moreno", "title": "Actors Rita Moreno and George Chakiris remember the original 'West Side Story'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Oh, I thought you say in the film that you did.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. That's incorrect. I never asked Stephen Sondheim to change lyric."}
{"id": "1062709348", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Rita Moreno", "title": "Actors Rita Moreno and George Chakiris remember the original 'West Side Story'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Wow. So why don't we hear it? And then we'll talk about how that reverberated. So here is my guest, Rita Moreno, kicking off \"America.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no. No, no, no, no, no. I would never have dreamed of doing that at the time. What happened was that I auditioned many times for the role of Anita with my heart in my throat because I hadn't dance"}
{"id": "1062709348", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Rita Moreno", "title": "Actors Rita Moreno and George Chakiris remember the original 'West Side Story'", "question_index": 12, "text": "So that was the beginning of \"America\" from \"West Side Story.\" And my guest is Rita Moreno, who you heard singing in that and who played Anita. So how did that song resonate among your Puerto Rican friends and family, if you had any family then in the U.S.?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Anita, singing) Always the hurricanes blowing, always the population growing and the money owing and the sunlight screaming."}
{"id": "1062709348", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Rita Moreno", "title": "Actors Rita Moreno and George Chakiris remember the original 'West Side Story'", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "as a person. So, well, they darkened us, of course, considerably. I - in fact, I remember when we started shooting the prologue, the very first take out on the streets of New York there, Jerry had the"}
{"id": "1062709348", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Rita Moreno", "title": "Actors Rita Moreno and George Chakiris remember the original 'West Side Story'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, one of the glorious and silliest things about \"West Side Story\" is the singing and dancing gang members.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So they made me darker still. So that was one thing that certainly had to be done. And the other thing was the accent, which I think was subtle - I hope, anyway. And as I recall, we took Rita as our g"}
{"id": "1062709348", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Rita Moreno", "title": "Actors Rita Moreno and George Chakiris remember the original 'West Side Story'", "question_index": 15, "text": "What did Jerome Robbins tell you about the choreography and the kind of choreography he wanted for the gang members? And why would they be dancing in the street?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1062709348", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Rita Moreno", "title": "Actors Rita Moreno and George Chakiris remember the original 'West Side Story'", "question_index": 16, "text": "Exactly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1062709348", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Rita Moreno", "title": "Actors Rita Moreno and George Chakiris remember the original 'West Side Story'", "question_index": 17, "text": "A compelling reason.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1062709348", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Rita Moreno", "title": "Actors Rita Moreno and George Chakiris remember the original 'West Side Story'", "question_index": 18, "text": "Yeah. What's happening is that the Jets are walking along the street.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But one of the things that I think Jerry did so brilliantly - and he was, God knows, a brilliant man. And I think genius is not an overblown word to use very directly in describing Jerry. But the way "}
{"id": "1062709348", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Rita Moreno", "title": "Actors Rita Moreno and George Chakiris remember the original 'West Side Story'", "question_index": 19, "text": "And one of them will kind of, like, jump up in a dancerly move and then keep walking and then...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1062709348", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Rita Moreno", "title": "Actors Rita Moreno and George Chakiris remember the original 'West Side Story'", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yeah, or just put his arms out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Or just put his arms out or..."}
{"id": "1062709348", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Rita Moreno", "title": "Actors Rita Moreno and George Chakiris remember the original 'West Side Story'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Exactly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very subtle stuff that eventually explodes, if you like, into dance."}
{"id": "1062709348", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Rita Moreno", "title": "Actors Rita Moreno and George Chakiris remember the original 'West Side Story'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "in the street, you know?"}
{"id": "1062709348", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Rita Moreno", "title": "Actors Rita Moreno and George Chakiris remember the original 'West Side Story'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Now, you actually shot the movie version of \"West Side Story\" on the streets of New York, yes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The theater version started the same way - well, in the sense that they don't start dancing right off the bat. They build up to it. And again, that building up allows it to, quote-unquote, \"explode\" i"}
{"id": "1062709348", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Rita Moreno", "title": "Actors Rita Moreno and George Chakiris remember the original 'West Side Story'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Let's talk about the rumble scene. And this is the scene where the two gangs rumble in a schoolyard. And it's, like, part dance and part a choreographed fight.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. 68th and Amsterdam was one of the locations. That's where Lincoln Center now stands. And the other location was a playground, which is still there - 110th Street and 2nd Avenue. Those were the "}
{"id": "1062709348", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Rita Moreno", "title": "Actors Rita Moreno and George Chakiris remember the original 'West Side Story'", "question_index": 25, "text": "But there's more dance in it than your average choreographed fight in an action film.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, right."}
{"id": "1062709348", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Rita Moreno", "title": "Actors Rita Moreno and George Chakiris remember the original 'West Side Story'", "question_index": 26, "text": "So everything in it is really quite stylized. Can you talk a little bit about the choreography of it and learning it and what it's like to stab and to be stabbed in this choreographed kind of way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1062709348", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Rita Moreno", "title": "Actors Rita Moreno and George Chakiris remember the original 'West Side Story'", "question_index": 27, "text": "I've heard that some of the actors who tested for parts in the film adaptation of \"West Side Story\" include Tony Perkins, Warren Beatty, Bobby Darin, Burt Reynolds, Richard Chamberlain and Troy Donahue.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, what I'd like to go back to, in answering your question, was doing the theater version of the rumble 'cause, of course, we had to do it eight times a week. I would say it was staged ra"}
{"id": "1062709348", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Rita Moreno", "title": "Actors Rita Moreno and George Chakiris remember the original 'West Side Story'", "question_index": 28, "text": "And Robert Redford? Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And Robert Redford."}
{"id": "1062709348", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Rita Moreno", "title": "Actors Rita Moreno and George Chakiris remember the original 'West Side Story'", "question_index": 29, "text": "For which part?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1062709348", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Rita Moreno", "title": "Actors Rita Moreno and George Chakiris remember the original 'West Side Story'", "question_index": 30, "text": "Did you know that all those other people had tested?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I heard that - I don't know. But I know I've heard that. I don't know if I heard it from Bob, Bob Wise. But I think so."}
{"id": "1062709348", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Rita Moreno", "title": "Actors Rita Moreno and George Chakiris remember the original 'West Side Story'", "question_index": 31, "text": "Right, interesting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "at all, no. And again, going back to this thing when we were doing it in the theater, never dreaming you'd get - I mean, it just never entered our minds that we'd ever be part of this. It just - it wa"}
{"id": "1062709348", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Rita Moreno", "title": "Actors Rita Moreno and George Chakiris remember the original 'West Side Story'", "question_index": 32, "text": "Now, you won an Academy Award for your performance as Bernardo.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Things in the newspapers that would be put on the bulletin board for us to see at the stage door."}
{"id": "1062709348", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Rita Moreno", "title": "Actors Rita Moreno and George Chakiris remember the original 'West Side Story'", "question_index": 33, "text": "How did it change your career to get the Academy Award?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1063015742", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Bob Dole", "title": "Remembering Sen. Bob Dole, former Republican presidential candidate", "question_index": 0, "text": "Some men always know that they want to fight in the army. Did you feel that way? Did you, like, want to join? Or was that something you had actually aspired to, being in the military?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Bob Dole, the longtime former senator, Republican presidential nominee and World War II veteran, died Sunday. He was 98. Dole represented Kansas in the Senate for 27 years, 12 of wh"}
{"id": "1063015742", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Bob Dole", "title": "Remembering Sen. Bob Dole, former Republican presidential candidate", "question_index": 1, "text": "Before the injury that left your - left one of your arms useless and nearly killed you, you had another injury in the war. Would you just briefly describe what happened the first time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I don't think so. I think - you know, we had a draft board. And if you didn't - in my case, I enlisted. I thought I had more choices if I enlisted rather than waiting for the draft. But the draft "}
{"id": "1063015742", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Bob Dole", "title": "Remembering Sen. Bob Dole, former Republican presidential candidate", "question_index": 2, "text": "What do you actually remember from the moment that you were hit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think what we had, we had almost - I was twice wounded. I got two Purple Hearts. But the first one was sort of superficial. We were out on a night patrol with my platoon - not the entire plato"}
{"id": "1063015742", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Bob Dole", "title": "Remembering Sen. Bob Dole, former Republican presidential candidate", "question_index": 3, "text": "When you woke up in the hospital, you still didn't have any movement.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's kind of fuzzy except your life kind of passes through. I mean, sort of these flash points. It must be what they call a near-death experience. I saw my little white dog, name was Spitzy - S-P-I-T-"}
{"id": "1063015742", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Bob Dole", "title": "Remembering Sen. Bob Dole, former Republican presidential candidate", "question_index": 4, "text": "Or sensation in a good deal of your body.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I didn't have any movement for a long time."}
{"id": "1063015742", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Bob Dole", "title": "Remembering Sen. Bob Dole, former Republican presidential candidate", "question_index": 5, "text": "You know, you describe how your mother basically moved in to take care of you. She took care of you in the hospital, and, of course, she took care of you when you got home. And, you know, here's what I'm thinking. Like, you had no physical ability then. You couldn't take care of yourself. You couldn't control your body functions. You couldn't...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I could talk. I could see people. I mean, my - I was alert. I just couldn't do anything. And people helped me. They bathed me. And they took me to the bathroom and - which is humiliating, as you m"}
{"id": "1063015742", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Bob Dole", "title": "Remembering Sen. Bob Dole, former Republican presidential candidate", "question_index": 6, "text": "...Feed yourself. And, you know, a mother is somebody you never have to feel embarrassed around. And I think, you know, that's - don't you think that's one of the wonderful things about a mother...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1063015742", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Bob Dole", "title": "Remembering Sen. Bob Dole, former Republican presidential candidate", "question_index": 7, "text": "...Taking care of you then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1063015742", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Bob Dole", "title": "Remembering Sen. Bob Dole, former Republican presidential candidate", "question_index": 8, "text": "You know we were talking about how you never have to be embarrassed around your mother, so it's wonderful, like, when a mother comes in and takes care of you when you're really sick, as you were. You married...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, with a mother - you're right, Terry. The mother - I've only once seen my mother really, really sob - I mean, really, uncontrollably crying. And that's when she first got a glimpse of me when I arr"}
{"id": "1063015742", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Bob Dole", "title": "Remembering Sen. Bob Dole, former Republican presidential candidate", "question_index": 9, "text": "Good point", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's still a little embarrassing. Maybe if it was - you're dealing with one of your daughters. But, you know, it's still embarrassing for a grown young man to have..."}
{"id": "1063015742", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Bob Dole", "title": "Remembering Sen. Bob Dole, former Republican presidential candidate", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's still a little embarrassing. Maybe if it was - you're dealing with one of your daughters. But, you know, it's still embarrassing for a grown young man to have..."}
{"id": "1063015742", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Bob Dole", "title": "Remembering Sen. Bob Dole, former Republican presidential candidate", "question_index": 11, "text": "Good point. I'm thinking like a girl. Good point", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...His mother..."}
{"id": "1063015742", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Bob Dole", "title": "Remembering Sen. Bob Dole, former Republican presidential candidate", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...His mother..."}
{"id": "1063015742", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Bob Dole", "title": "Remembering Sen. Bob Dole, former Republican presidential candidate", "question_index": 13, "text": "That's a really good point", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, no, not sure of that. But I..."}
{"id": "1063015742", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Bob Dole", "title": "Remembering Sen. Bob Dole, former Republican presidential candidate", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, no, not sure of that. But I..."}
{"id": "1063015742", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Bob Dole", "title": "Remembering Sen. Bob Dole, former Republican presidential candidate", "question_index": 15, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was always a little embarrassed my mother had to empty the bedpan or..."}
{"id": "1063015742", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Bob Dole", "title": "Remembering Sen. Bob Dole, former Republican presidential candidate", "question_index": 16, "text": "Oh, that's a very excellent point, though, yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So I tried to be good."}
{"id": "1063015742", "date": "2021-12-10", "guest": "Bob Dole", "title": "Remembering Sen. Bob Dole, former Republican presidential candidate", "question_index": 17, "text": "Do you think you would have gone into politics if you weren't injured in the war? Do you think your life might have taken a completely different direction?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She used to hold cigarettes for me, too, which was a - she tested anybody who smoked, and here she was holding my cigarettes."}
{"id": "1065059899", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Ben Affleck", "title": "For author J.R. Moehringer, 'The Tender Bar' was a chance to revisit childhood", "question_index": 0, "text": "Let me start by asking you to describe this bar that played such an important part of your childhood. It's kind of like it takes a village. But in your case, it takes a bar", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"The Tender Bar\" opens in selected theaters today. It will be available for streaming on Amazon Prime January 7. Terry spoke with J.R. Moehringer in 2012."}
{"id": "1065059899", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Ben Affleck", "title": "For author J.R. Moehringer, 'The Tender Bar' was a chance to revisit childhood", "question_index": 1, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"The Tender Bar\" opens in selected theaters today. It will be available for streaming on Amazon Prime January 7. Terry spoke with J.R. Moehringer in 2012."}
{"id": "1065059899", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Ben Affleck", "title": "For author J.R. Moehringer, 'The Tender Bar' was a chance to revisit childhood", "question_index": 2, "text": "Yeah, say his name.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. It takes a barroom full of barflies, yeah. Well, I - yeah, I grew up, it was just me and my mother. My father was a rock 'n' roll DJ in New York. He was quite well known at the time, so I grew "}
{"id": "1065059899", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Ben Affleck", "title": "For author J.R. Moehringer, 'The Tender Bar' was a chance to revisit childhood", "question_index": 3, "text": "What did manhood mean to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Johnny Michaels. And he was - he bounced around a bit. He was at WNBC and WABC. He was there at the at the vanguard when rock 'n' roll was making that switch from AM to FM. And he had the most beautif"}
{"id": "1065059899", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Ben Affleck", "title": "For author J.R. Moehringer, 'The Tender Bar' was a chance to revisit childhood", "question_index": 4, "text": "So you were basically brought up in part by the macho kind of guys at this bar. And then you get a scholarship to go to Yale. So I'm thinking the women - the young women at Yale might have had a different sense of manhood the way they wanted it", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, to me, it meant just total mystery and confusion. I mean, it was just me and my mother. And she's a wonderful woman and knows all there is to know about courage and character and grit. But I jus"}
{"id": "1065059899", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Ben Affleck", "title": "For author J.R. Moehringer, 'The Tender Bar' was a chance to revisit childhood", "question_index": 5, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, to me, it meant just total mystery and confusion. I mean, it was just me and my mother. And she's a wonderful woman and knows all there is to know about courage and character and grit. But I jus"}
{"id": "1065059899", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Ben Affleck", "title": "For author J.R. Moehringer, 'The Tender Bar' was a chance to revisit childhood", "question_index": 6, "text": "...Than what you were exposed to. And what you were just describing there was like, they're old-fashioned men who really, like - what was the word you used - gentlemanly? I forget what the word you used.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1065059899", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Ben Affleck", "title": "For author J.R. Moehringer, 'The Tender Bar' was a chance to revisit childhood", "question_index": 7, "text": "Respectful.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were respectful. They were courteous."}
{"id": "1065059899", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Ben Affleck", "title": "For author J.R. Moehringer, 'The Tender Bar' was a chance to revisit childhood", "question_index": 8, "text": "Yes. But you didn't say that they treated women as equals", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1065059899", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Ben Affleck", "title": "For author J.R. Moehringer, 'The Tender Bar' was a chance to revisit childhood", "question_index": 9, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1065059899", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Ben Affleck", "title": "For author J.R. Moehringer, 'The Tender Bar' was a chance to revisit childhood", "question_index": 10, "text": "...Which you probably can't say.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "..."}
{"id": "1065059899", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Ben Affleck", "title": "For author J.R. Moehringer, 'The Tender Bar' was a chance to revisit childhood", "question_index": 11, "text": "No, no. I understand.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can say that, certainly, about some of them. I don't want to malign..."}
{"id": "1065059899", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Ben Affleck", "title": "For author J.R. Moehringer, 'The Tender Bar' was a chance to revisit childhood", "question_index": 12, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But yeah. No, I mean, there were - there was a variety. These guys were not all of a kind. And so..."}
{"id": "1065059899", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Ben Affleck", "title": "For author J.R. Moehringer, 'The Tender Bar' was a chance to revisit childhood", "question_index": 13, "text": "But did you find that your preparation for manhood wasn't necessarily the kind of manhood that was going to be a positive thing for the women who were your peers once you got to college?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...It's hard to generalize about them. So yes, certainly there were some old-school chauvinists."}
{"id": "1065059899", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Ben Affleck", "title": "For author J.R. Moehringer, 'The Tender Bar' was a chance to revisit childhood", "question_index": 14, "text": "So in talking about the bar where you grew up, in part, you write that there was lots of sex at the bar - that sex was one of the foundational premises of the bar, so it made a kind of sense that people had sex all over the premises - in the parking lot, in the bathrooms, in the basement. Did you end up running into some of these examples before you actually understood the facts of life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "to grow up in a bar and in a tiny apartment with a single mom and to go to a bad public school. This is not how you prep for college, I think."}
{"id": "1065059899", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Ben Affleck", "title": "For author J.R. Moehringer, 'The Tender Bar' was a chance to revisit childhood", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well, who needs to watch an HBO series when you have that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I was pretty conversant in the facts of life when I was in the bar and observing what the grown-ups were all doing. And, you know, this was a different time. It was the '70s, early '80s. And, you "}
{"id": "1065059899", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Ben Affleck", "title": "For author J.R. Moehringer, 'The Tender Bar' was a chance to revisit childhood", "question_index": 16, "text": "So I'm just fascinated by the idea that your father was a DJ. And you didn't really know him because he and your mother split up when you were very young. But you'd hear him on the radio. And anyone else in the house would turn the radio off 'cause he had mistreated your mother so badly. Or at least, that's what you had been told growing up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, the bar was always better than television. That is the truest thing you can say about that place."}
{"id": "1065059899", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Ben Affleck", "title": "For author J.R. Moehringer, 'The Tender Bar' was a chance to revisit childhood", "question_index": 17, "text": "And so you'd hear him on the radio and just, like, fantasize about who he was and read all kinds of things into his voice. You thought of him as the Voice, with a capital V. And you thought of his radio show as, like, this party that your father was giving with, like, Stevie Wonder and Van Morrison and The Beatles. Can you describe a little bit what it was like? I know, like, when I was growing up and I listened to the radio, to me, it was, like, that place that no one could take away from me 'cause even alone in my bedroom, I could listen to the radio. And", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1065059899", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Ben Affleck", "title": "For author J.R. Moehringer, 'The Tender Bar' was a chance to revisit childhood", "question_index": 18, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1065059899", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Ben Affleck", "title": "For author J.R. Moehringer, 'The Tender Bar' was a chance to revisit childhood", "question_index": 19, "text": "It would be, like, my - you know, my connection to, like, not only great music, but, like, the world outside - and, like, a world that seemed, like, just like so hip, you know", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Right."}
{"id": "1065059899", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Ben Affleck", "title": "For author J.R. Moehringer, 'The Tender Bar' was a chance to revisit childhood", "question_index": 20, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Right."}
{"id": "1065059899", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Ben Affleck", "title": "For author J.R. Moehringer, 'The Tender Bar' was a chance to revisit childhood", "question_index": 21, "text": "So just talk a little bit about what it meant to listen to this absent father on the radio and imagine who he was.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Right."}
{"id": "1065059899", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Ben Affleck", "title": "For author J.R. Moehringer, 'The Tender Bar' was a chance to revisit childhood", "question_index": 22, "text": "I think if you listen to the radio, you're always surprised if you meet the person you've been listening to 'cause you have imagined them to be one way. And they're probably not that way, either physically...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was surreal because, as I say, his voice was spectacular. He just had these beautiful pipes. I might not have been so inclined to romanticize him if he hadn't sounded the way he sounded. But he rea"}
{"id": "1065059899", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Ben Affleck", "title": "For author J.R. Moehringer, 'The Tender Bar' was a chance to revisit childhood", "question_index": 23, "text": "...Or, you know, biographically. Now, in your case, it was your father who you were obsessed with on the radio.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1065059899", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Ben Affleck", "title": "For author J.R. Moehringer, 'The Tender Bar' was a chance to revisit childhood", "question_index": 24, "text": "So you were imagining him in your mind. You got to know him a little better before his death. What surprised you most about the differences between who he was and what you'd imagined?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1065059899", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Ben Affleck", "title": "For author J.R. Moehringer, 'The Tender Bar' was a chance to revisit childhood", "question_index": 25, "text": "And did you meet him again after that, later in life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah, I met him when I was 16 or 17. And you know, I was just too - I was too filled with longing for a father. And I was too emotionally overwrought by the moment to notice any disparity betwee"}
{"id": "1065059899", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Ben Affleck", "title": "For author J.R. Moehringer, 'The Tender Bar' was a chance to revisit childhood", "question_index": 26, "text": "In what way was he an unhealthy influence?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. I had several meetings with him, which were - now they seem funny. But at the time, they were - I mean, he was a hard drinker. And nobody could make a bad decision like my father. So his life w"}
{"id": "1065059899", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Ben Affleck", "title": "For author J.R. Moehringer, 'The Tender Bar' was a chance to revisit childhood", "question_index": 27, "text": "When you got into Yale on a scholarship, did you have to write one of those entrance essays?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR, and we're listening to Terry's 2012 interview with writer J.R. Moehringer. The movie based on his memoir, \"The Tender Bar,\" opens in theaters today."}
{"id": "1065059899", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Ben Affleck", "title": "For author J.R. Moehringer, 'The Tender Bar' was a chance to revisit childhood", "question_index": 28, "text": "So did you basically write a draft of your memoir, \"The Tender Bar,\" for your college essay?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did."}
{"id": "1065059899", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Ben Affleck", "title": "For author J.R. Moehringer, 'The Tender Bar' was a chance to revisit childhood", "question_index": 29, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was one of the biggest arguments we've ever had, and we just went around and around. I thought, this woman obviously doesn't know good writing, and we were slamming doors. I remember this like it w"}
{"id": "1065059899", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Ben Affleck", "title": "For author J.R. Moehringer, 'The Tender Bar' was a chance to revisit childhood", "question_index": 30, "text": "Do you remember any of the sentences from the essay that she didn't want you to send or any of the, you know, million-dollar words that you used?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1065059899", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Ben Affleck", "title": "For author J.R. Moehringer, 'The Tender Bar' was a chance to revisit childhood", "question_index": 31, "text": "Oh, so do you have the book with you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, to her credit or discredit, she saved the essays. I think maybe she thought she might have to have me committed one day and these would be - and I quote them in the book. I mean, she b"}
{"id": "1065059899", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Ben Affleck", "title": "For author J.R. Moehringer, 'The Tender Bar' was a chance to revisit childhood", "question_index": 32, "text": "Yeah, yeah. So find a phrase there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do. Yeah."}
{"id": "1065059899", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Ben Affleck", "title": "For author J.R. Moehringer, 'The Tender Bar' was a chance to revisit childhood", "question_index": 33, "text": "Wait, wait, how were you going to use Marquis de Sod - S-O-D - in a sentence?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK, sure. Let's see. I'm going to flip the pages here. Yeah, I turned right to it. Before beginning my essay for Yale, I made a list of big words and my mother saved this list, and I quote it in the b"}
{"id": "1065059899", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Ben Affleck", "title": "For author J.R. Moehringer, 'The Tender Bar' was a chance to revisit childhood", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I really - I really would rather not go into it, frankly."}
{"id": "1065059899", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Ben Affleck", "title": "For author J.R. Moehringer, 'The Tender Bar' was a chance to revisit childhood", "question_index": 35, "text": "Bravo.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I do quote one line from this essay. Try as I might, I wrote - I actually remember writing this on a manual typewriter. Try as I might, I feel unable to truly convey the emphatic pangs of hungry i"}
{"id": "1065128822", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Brad Pitt", "title": "Remembering 'Vampire Chronicles' author Anne Rice", "question_index": 0, "text": "Did you ever have an experience that you could only attribute to the supernatural that was either, like, mystical or psychic?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Besides her books about the supernatural, Anne Rice wrote a novel about the careers of two castrati, male singers who were castrated before puberty to preserve their voices. And she wrote erotic and p"}
{"id": "1065128822", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Brad Pitt", "title": "Remembering 'Vampire Chronicles' author Anne Rice", "question_index": 1, "text": "So you believe that that's a possibility.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I've actually had none. But I'll tell you I'm very afraid of the dark. I'm very afraid of being alone. I felt all my life that there's something there, and I think I shut it out. I think I conscio"}
{"id": "1065128822", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Brad Pitt", "title": "Remembering 'Vampire Chronicles' author Anne Rice", "question_index": 2, "text": "Now, early in your life, I think you were part of the Catholic Church, and I think your mother used to be fairly religious. Is there any connection to the imagery of the church and the imagery of vampire and witches as you use them in your books?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, definitely. I really do. I'm not close-minded on any of that. The more I read in the occult, the more I'm fascinated by what ordinary people have experienced with mediums, communicating with the d"}
{"id": "1065128822", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Brad Pitt", "title": "Remembering 'Vampire Chronicles' author Anne Rice", "question_index": 3, "text": "Would you want to live the eternal life of the vampire? Everybody wants a long life, but the - you know, the story of the vampire is one of, like, eternal life, but there's a terrible trade-off for it. It's a kind of miserable life, and you need to live off the blood of others to keep up that life. Of course, the life is less miserable for your vampires than for a lot of the classic vampires.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I think so. I really do. The spiritual realm is an absolute reality to anyone who's a Catholic. You grow up believing that what's invisible and spiritual is infinitely more important than what's m"}
{"id": "1065128822", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Brad Pitt", "title": "Remembering 'Vampire Chronicles' author Anne Rice", "question_index": 4, "text": "I'd want to know what the life was going to be like. No, seriously. Like", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I've thought a lot about that. And I think if a vampire were to come to me and say, I can make you immortal; we do exist, I think I might find the offer irresistible. What about you? I"}
{"id": "1065128822", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Brad Pitt", "title": "Remembering 'Vampire Chronicles' author Anne Rice", "question_index": 5, "text": ", what are the rules going to be? What would I be allowed to do? What I have to sleep in a coffin during the day? And would I - you know, would the things that I enjoy now still be enjoyable? Would there be anything to make life worth living?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I've thought a lot about that. And I think if a vampire were to come to me and say, I can make you immortal; we do exist, I think I might find the offer irresistible. What about you? I"}
{"id": "1065128822", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Brad Pitt", "title": "Remembering 'Vampire Chronicles' author Anne Rice", "question_index": 6, "text": "Do you worry about that a lot?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I still think even if all the answers to that were pretty bad, I don't know. The fear of death is pretty profound."}
{"id": "1065128822", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Brad Pitt", "title": "Remembering 'Vampire Chronicles' author Anne Rice", "question_index": 7, "text": "You know, I think people worry more - well, some people worry more about the death of the people they love than they do about their own death.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, not really."}
{"id": "1065128822", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Brad Pitt", "title": "Remembering 'Vampire Chronicles' author Anne Rice", "question_index": 8, "text": "You've broken some of the vampire rules in your vampire books by allowing them to enjoy life more, to be out in non-vampire hours and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that's definitely true. You know, we don't experience our own death, probably. I don't know. Who knows?"}
{"id": "1065128822", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Brad Pitt", "title": "Remembering 'Vampire Chronicles' author Anne Rice", "question_index": 9, "text": "You know, when I read Bram Stoker's \"Dracula,\" I really started thinking that the story had a lot to do with fear of syphilis", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I took the conventions that were of interest to me. I mean, the Sun can destroy my vampires or hurt them very badly. They don't shy away from garlic or crucifixes. They don't have any clear indi"}
{"id": "1065128822", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Brad Pitt", "title": "Remembering 'Vampire Chronicles' author Anne Rice", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I took the conventions that were of interest to me. I mean, the Sun can destroy my vampires or hurt them very badly. They don't shy away from garlic or crucifixes. They don't have any clear indi"}
{"id": "1065128822", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Brad Pitt", "title": "Remembering 'Vampire Chronicles' author Anne Rice", "question_index": 11, "text": "Yeah, and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Could have."}
{"id": "1065128822", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Brad Pitt", "title": "Remembering 'Vampire Chronicles' author Anne Rice", "question_index": 12, "text": "I'm wondering how AIDS is affecting your vampires. And I ask that because I know you're continuing the vampire series.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1065128822", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Brad Pitt", "title": "Remembering 'Vampire Chronicles' author Anne Rice", "question_index": 13, "text": "What were the vampire books and movies or related occult books and movies, horror movies, et cetera, that got you very interested in that sensibility?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there's no logical or direct connection. You know, there's - I think there is a darkening of my work, and that's inevitable because I have lost some of my friends to AIDS. And so as you grow old"}
{"id": "1065128822", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Brad Pitt", "title": "Remembering 'Vampire Chronicles' author Anne Rice", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, to tell you the truth, I wasn't all that interested, really. You know, before I wrote \"Interview With The Vampire,\" I can't say that I went out of my way to watch a lot, you know, of horror movi"}
{"id": "1065128822", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Brad Pitt", "title": "Remembering 'Vampire Chronicles' author Anne Rice", "question_index": 15, "text": "Your books have a lot of sexual encounters in them, and in fact, you write pornography as well as writing your novels. How did you start writing pornography? And I think we could call it - I mean, you'd call it pornography, right?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR, and we're listening to Terry's 1990 interview with writer Anne Rice, best known for her novels about the supernatural, including the bestseller \"Interview With The Vampire.\" Rice di"}
{"id": "1065128822", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Brad Pitt", "title": "Remembering 'Vampire Chronicles' author Anne Rice", "question_index": 16, "text": "Yeah. I mean, we don't have to be...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure, absolutely."}
{"id": "1065128822", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Brad Pitt", "title": "Remembering 'Vampire Chronicles' author Anne Rice", "question_index": 17, "text": "...Pretend that it's not that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "1065128822", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Brad Pitt", "title": "Remembering 'Vampire Chronicles' author Anne Rice", "question_index": 18, "text": "Oh, you stopped.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, that's a prettier word, maybe, but it's pornography. Actually, I don't write it anymore. I wrote three books of it under..."}
{"id": "1065128822", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Brad Pitt", "title": "Remembering 'Vampire Chronicles' author Anne Rice", "question_index": 19, "text": "Does it bother you when people try to make the distinction between erotica and pornography and say, well, erotica is acceptable, but pornography is filthy and we don't like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Under the pen name A.N. Roquelaure, and those books are being very, very well received now. But it's been some time since I wrote them. And I really accomplished there what I wanted to accomplish. "}
{"id": "1065128822", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Brad Pitt", "title": "Remembering 'Vampire Chronicles' author Anne Rice", "question_index": 20, "text": "Some of your books have a combination of straight sex, lesbian sex, gay sex in it. Do you feel kind of qualified", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I'm much more interested in the idea that sex is really good, that we in the 20th century have achieved something wonderful in divorcing sex from superstition and in approaching it from a psyc"}
{"id": "1065128822", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Brad Pitt", "title": "Remembering 'Vampire Chronicles' author Anne Rice", "question_index": 21, "text": "to write about the different, you know, sex between different sexual preferences and genders and so on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I'm much more interested in the idea that sex is really good, that we in the 20th century have achieved something wonderful in divorcing sex from superstition and in approaching it from a psyc"}
{"id": "1065128822", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Brad Pitt", "title": "Remembering 'Vampire Chronicles' author Anne Rice", "question_index": 22, "text": "Yeah, you know -", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Do I feel qualified?"}
{"id": "1065128822", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Brad Pitt", "title": "Remembering 'Vampire Chronicles' author Anne Rice", "question_index": 23, "text": "you know what I mean. Some people only want to read - only feel like it's legitimate for a woman to - for a straight woman to write straight heterosexual sex scenes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Do I feel qualified?"}
{"id": "1065128822", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Brad Pitt", "title": "Remembering 'Vampire Chronicles' author Anne Rice", "question_index": 24, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's absurd. With all due respect, that's absolutely absurd. That's like asking Will Shakespeare if he's qualified to write about the royal family of Denmark."}
{"id": "1065133058", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Greg Tate", "title": "Remembering Greg Tate, a culture critic who focused on Black music and art", "question_index": 0, "text": "One of the forms of music you've written a lot about is rap. And there's a lot of the music that you really like a lot. On the other hand, you are - you take issue with a lot of the points of view in the rock records. You once described Public Enemy as having a whack retarded philosophy they espouse. What kinds of dilemmas does rap music present for you?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Greg Tate, an influential writer and critic focusing on Black music and art whose work appeared in the Village Voice and Rolling Stone, died December 7 in New York City. He was 64. "}
{"id": "1065133058", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Greg Tate", "title": "Remembering Greg Tate, a culture critic who focused on Black music and art", "question_index": 1, "text": "Let me read an excerpt from your essay \"The Devil Made 'Em Do It: Public Enemy\" (ph). You write, (reading) to know Public Enemy is to love the agitprop and artful noise and to worry over the whack retarded philosophy they espouse, like the Black woman has always been kept up by the white male because the white male has always wanted the Black woman, like gays aren't doing what's needed to build the Black nation, like white people are actually monkey's uncles because that's who they mated with in the Caucasian hills, like if the Palestinians took up arms, when into Israel and killed all the Jews, it'd be all right. From this idiot blather, Public Enemy is obviously making it up as they go along. Since PE shows sound reasoning when they focus on racism as a tool of the U.S. power structure, they should be intelligent enough to realize that dehumanizing gays, women and Jews isn't going to set Black people free. You got a reaction from Public Enemy to this piece.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't know that rap presents any more of a dilemma to me than any other form of music or any other form of argument. I think that one of the things that rap or hip-hop isn't given enough credi"}
{"id": "1065133058", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Greg Tate", "title": "Remembering Greg Tate, a culture critic who focused on Black music and art", "question_index": 2, "text": "I think he apologized to you while you were interviewing him for a piece in the Village Voice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I got a reaction from Chuck D at a concert they did the week after it came out, where - it was kind of funny 'cause I wasn't even in town. I was in Greece at an African and reggae music festival"}
{"id": "1065133058", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Greg Tate", "title": "Remembering Greg Tate, a culture critic who focused on Black music and art", "question_index": 3, "text": "And in that piece, you were doing the interview along with Robert Christgau, who was the former music editor of the Voice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1065133058", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Greg Tate", "title": "Remembering Greg Tate, a culture critic who focused on Black music and art", "question_index": 4, "text": "And you were both really trying to, among other things, talk to Chuck D of Public Enemy about gay-bashing and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1065133058", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Greg Tate", "title": "Remembering Greg Tate, a culture critic who focused on Black music and art", "question_index": 5, "text": "Homophobia, yeah. And I don't think you were really getting through very far.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, homophobia."}
{"id": "1065133058", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Greg Tate", "title": "Remembering Greg Tate, a culture critic who focused on Black music and art", "question_index": 6, "text": "What did you think? I mean, what was your approach to trying to talk with him about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, homophobia."}
{"id": "1065133058", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Greg Tate", "title": "Remembering Greg Tate, a culture critic who focused on Black music and art", "question_index": 7, "text": "Mmm hmm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To recognize the, you know, humanity of people who are gay..."}
{"id": "1065133058", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Greg Tate", "title": "Remembering Greg Tate, a culture critic who focused on Black music and art", "question_index": 8, "text": "You know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know? And I think he acknowledged it without ever acknowledging that he would ever be comfortable with it, you know? I think he - you know, he was able to acknowledge it in theory, but I don't "}
{"id": "1065133058", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Greg Tate", "title": "Remembering Greg Tate, a culture critic who focused on Black music and art", "question_index": 9, "text": "Some people are just totally threatened by rap music altogether and can't deal with it. Some people just, you know, love the message, love the music. And some people - and I think you're probably in this category - really love a lot about it, but feel that they have to speak out about parts that they find really offensive, like the misogyny.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Unintelligible) That was the case."}
{"id": "1065133058", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Greg Tate", "title": "Remembering Greg Tate, a culture critic who focused on Black music and art", "question_index": 10, "text": "You mentioned in one of your essays that your mother was very active in civil rights groups and politically active as well. She was a press secretary for Jesse Jackson during one of his presidential campaigns, press secretary for Marion Barry during his first mayoral campaign. What kind of political values were stressed in the house when you were growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "as Public Enemy put it - through attacking the music or the messages in the music, you know, more than they're seeing that this is about one person who has an opinion, and he put it to a beat, and he "}
{"id": "1065133058", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Greg Tate", "title": "Remembering Greg Tate, a culture critic who focused on Black music and art", "question_index": 11, "text": "So education was really important.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know? It was - I mean, it was very interesting because my parents were doing - were activists. And it wasn't even like these things were stressed; they were just lived. I mean, you were just awa"}
{"id": "1065133058", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Greg Tate", "title": "Remembering Greg Tate, a culture critic who focused on Black music and art", "question_index": 12, "text": "If you don't mind my asking, I'm wondering what your mother's take has been about the kind of B-boy writing that you've done, you know, in the kinds of pieces where you use real B-boy kind of language, real hip-hop language. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- subsequently found that that wasn't the case. But..."}
{"id": "1065133058", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Greg Tate", "title": "Remembering Greg Tate, a culture critic who focused on Black music and art", "question_index": 13, "text": "Right", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my - you know, I have one of those mothers who's, like, the biggest fan of anything."}
{"id": "1065133058", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Greg Tate", "title": "Remembering Greg Tate, a culture critic who focused on Black music and art", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my - you know, I have one of those mothers who's, like, the biggest fan of anything."}
{"id": "1065133058", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Greg Tate", "title": "Remembering Greg Tate, a culture critic who focused on Black music and art", "question_index": 15, "text": "Did you ever feel like you were rebelling against your parents or against being part of the Black middle class in any way by writing in that kind of style or by, you know, having dreads?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The joke is - it was like, as long as it's said from the heart, as long as it's done with integrity and style, my mother's totally down with it."}
{"id": "1065133058", "date": "2021-12-18", "guest": "Greg Tate", "title": "Remembering Greg Tate, a culture critic who focused on Black music and art", "question_index": 16, "text": "Thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, and like me, she knows all the lyrics, you know, backwards and forwards. You know, it's like I say. I mean, if it's done with style and integrity, if it's pro Black, my mother's with it."}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Alan Cumming, has written a new memoir in which he explains that at some of his greatest career highs, he's been unhappy and confused. At his most celebrated, he's felt the lowest self-esteem. He traces some of this to his relationship with his father, who tormented him psychologically and beat him. Cumming also writes about his two marriages and his understanding of his own sexuality. In his 20s, he was married to a woman. Their relationship lasted about eight years. He's been with his husband for 17 years. Cumming's memoir is also filled with insights about acting. Cumming became famous in the U.S. for his Tony Award-winning performance in the 1998 Broadway revival of \"Cabaret.\" He played the emcee in a Berlin nightclub in 1929 and '30 as the Nazis are gaining power, but people in the cabaret are oblivious to what that means. Cumming's interpretation of the character emphasized the sexuality and debauchery of the club's culture. In 2014, that production was revived with Cumming again playing the emcee. Cumming was nominated for three Emmys and two Golden Globes for his performance in the TV series \"The Good Wife.\" His movies include the Kubrick film \"Eyes Wide Shut,\" the Bond film \"GoldenEye,\" the X-Men film \"X2\" and the \"Spy Kids\" trilogy. His cabaret act, \"Alan Cumming Sings Sappy Songs,\" was broadcast on PBS. He co-starred in the recent series \"Schmigadoon!\" a loving spoof of musicals from the 1940s and '50s. Let's start with the opening song from \"Cabaret.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 1, "text": "Alan Cumming, welcome back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Emcee, singing) Willkommen, bienvenue, welcome, fremde, estranger, stranger, gluklich zu sehen, je suis enchante, happy to see you, bleibe, reste, stay. Willkommen, bienvenue, welcome, im Cabaret,"}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 2, "text": "So you came to New York to do \"Cabaret\" and you say that it was an unusual feeling to not have people make assumptions about your class or about your intelligence because you were Scottish. What were the assumptions in Britain about you because of your accent?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 3, "text": "We talked a lot about \"Cabaret\" in our 2014 interview, so I don't want to go over the same territory, but I was really interested to read in the book that when you were first offered \"Cabaret,\" you declined. You didn't want to be in a musical. Why didn't you want to be in a musical?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I - before I came to New York, I was living in London and, you know, there's quite a lot of baggage, as it were, being a Scot living in London - being from outside of the southeast of England an"}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 4, "text": "Were you comfortable singing in character?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just felt - I mean, I was being snobby, I suppose. I just didn't quite - I mean, I just felt musicals weren't for me. It was very much, you know, I hadn't done anything like that. I'd sort of - even"}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 5, "text": "So you were reluctant to do \"Cabaret\" when it was offered to. You didn't want to be in a musical. You were uncomfortable about musicals. Now that you've been in an exceptionally successful musical, you were in another musical very recently, and this was a parody of classic Americana kind of musicals from the 1950s called \"Schmigadoon!\" It was a streaming series that I just really loved. So describe the character that you played in \"Schmigadoon!\" And \"Schmigadoon!\" - it's \"Schmigadoon!\" as in \"Brigadoon\" because the musicals that are parodied in this include, like, \"The Music Man,\" \"Guys And Dolls\"...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I - singing in character is much easier. You have this sort of veil of the character between you and the audience. I find it really difficult, and, you know, I started doing my own concerts about"}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 6, "text": "...\"Oklahoma,\" \"Carousel,\" \"Brigadoon.\" Did I mention \"Brigadoon\" already? Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Carousel.\""}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 7, "text": "So you play this very repressed character. Like, you're the mayor. And one day in the woods, the Cecily Strong character sees you. And she's very confused about, like, who she's in love with and, you know, whether she should be breaking up with the person who she was partners with. And you sing the song \"Somewhere Love Is Waiting For You.\" And the deeper you get into the song, the more you realize, the more viewers realize you're singing about yourself and that you're gay and so deep in the closet, like, you can't reveal that even hardly to yourself, let alone to anybody else. So let's hear this song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. So Keegan-Michael Key and Cecily Strong play a couple in the present time who go on this kind of getaway from it all, make your relationship better, sort of outward bound weekend. And they get lo"}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 8, "text": "That is so much fun. And, of course, the love that was forbidden is your own love for another man", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Mayor Aloysius Menlove, singing) And when you find him, bells won't be ringing, no angels singing to lead you to him. But when you find him, a little voice leaves you no choice but to pursue him. "}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Mayor Aloysius Menlove, singing) And when you find him, bells won't be ringing, no angels singing to lead you to him. But when you find him, a little voice leaves you no choice but to pursue him. "}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 10, "text": "For Fred. For Fred Armisen.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, for Fred."}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 11, "text": "Yeah", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Fred Armisen."}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 12, "text": ". So did you go back to the source material and try to figure out what songs inspired this song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Fred Armisen."}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Alan Cumming. His new memoir is called \"Baggage.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I mean, I didn't. I sort of - I - you know, this was sort of an - I mean, it's an amalgam of lots of different sort of songs from all those shows. The thing that Cinco Paul, who wrote it - you kno"}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Alan Cumming. His new memoir is called \"Baggage.\" Your first memoir had a lot to do with your childhood growing up and your father's emotional and physical abuse. I mean, he tormented you. He beat you. You still write about some of that in your new memoir. And you tell this really horrible story about being locked in this tube. Your father was a forester. Can you give us the short version of that story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I mean, I didn't. I sort of - I - you know, this was sort of an - I mean, it's an amalgam of lots of different sort of songs from all those shows. The thing that Cinco Paul, who wrote it - you kno"}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 15, "text": "This was to like, cure the wood with some kind of chemical, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a thing called a circular plant, there was a thing that wood - sort of railway would go into this big metal tube. And then it had wood on these little trolleys. And then they would sort of vacuum"}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 16, "text": "I'm just thinking about how not funny and how very cruel it was of your father to lock you in, however briefly, in this tube - you know, this big canister filled with a chemical. And now that we know so much more about the toxic qualities and the long-lasting toxic qualities...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "to make it more hard-wearing and to last, you know, like that sort of green color that you see wood and sort of fence posts and things have. And so what happened was that the - one time the little cha"}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 17, "text": "...Of many chemicals - I mean...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 18, "text": "No. It's just a horror show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's nothing good about it. Yeah, there's nothing..."}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 19, "text": "How aware was your mother of what your father was doing? And how did she handle it? And I'm wondering if you've - he's been dead a few years. So when you say he is a presence in your life, you mean, like, a psychological presence. He's not a living - a physically living presence anymore. But your mother is still alive.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a horror - I mean, and that was one of many sort of similar - I mean, it wasn't just physical. You know, he was violent. But it was also, like, that he did these really weird, sort of sick kind o"}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 20, "text": "You were already out of the house when she did that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mother is very much alive and kicking. Yes, I just saw her yesterday. I put him - but my dad is - he's more - I mean, I talk about him. I'm talking about him now. You know, I talk about him. He's m"}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 21, "text": "When those memories started coming back to you, did you trust the memories? And was there anybody who you could talk to who could say, yeah, that really happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I left, you know, when I was 17. I went to drama school as quickly as I could. I sort of fled. And it - you know, I took - but it was very many years after that before I could even remember thin"}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 22, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Alan Cumming. His new memoir is called \"Baggage.\" We'll talk more after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The person that I was able to be reassured by that it had happened was my brother. And I - but, of course, I think if anyone has had the experience of remembering abuse and that - you can't believe it"}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Alan Cumming. He won a Tony for his performance in the revival of \"Cabaret,\" playing the emcee at a decadent Berlin nightclub as the Nazis are slowly taking over. He won an Emmy for his performance on the TV series \"The Good Wife.\" He's written his second memoir. It's called \"Baggage.\" When we left off, we were talking about his physically abusive father, who beat him and tormented him. Cumming left home when he was 17. Well, you write about - you hadn't - didn't talk to your father for about 16 years. But you mentioned that you and your brother returned to see your father and to confront him. What did you say to each other? Can - are you comfortable talking about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The person that I was able to be reassured by that it had happened was my brother. And I - but, of course, I think if anyone has had the experience of remembering abuse and that - you can't believe it"}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 24, "text": "But you did some research and DNA testing, and you found out that he...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "'Cause I had this piece of paper with all the things I wanted to say, and he made it like I was acting a scene, which I thought was kind of perfect, actually. But then we never heard from him again. T"}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 25, "text": "Why did he say that you were not his biological son? Did he believe that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I was his son. Yeah, I was his son. He - that's - I was. So I had to..."}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 26, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "having that conversation. And he said, well, I'm very surprised to hear that. And I was like, I bet you are."}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 27, "text": "When you were a teenager and decided you wanted to act and started studying drama, was it a relief to get out of yourself and become other people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he said to me, I - you know, he said things like, I had to believe it, Alan. I said, no, you didn't; you chose to believe it. And he said things like, you know, did you not notice that we never bo"}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 28, "text": "You know, you write in your memoir about your marriage to your wife, who you married when you were in your 20s, I think, and then...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes, it was. And I think that's still something that I feel is, you know, a great attraction for me about acting. I just love the idea that I play someone completely different to myself. I think,"}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 29, "text": "...Your marriage to your husband. And you've been together for about 17 years. You say that, you know, after you were married for a while, you realized that you needed to make a change, that you needed to get out of the marriage. But you weren't really sure how to do it, and you also were going through a really rough period. Correct me if I have the chronology wrong here, but there was a period when you were doing \"Hamlet\" at night and rehearsing \"Cabaret\" during the day, which was, I mean, two extraordinary roles, but it turned out to be a very kind of dangerous brew for you because of the characters. What was seeping into your person from their characters that added to your depression and anxiety during that period?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, 21."}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 30, "text": "I think it must have been really complicated to be thinking, do I really want to be a father? Do I even really want to stay in this marriage? - while at the same time playing opposite your wife every night on stage because you were Hamlet and she was Ophelia.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so \"Hamlet,\" I was playing someone who's having, you know, a very difficult time with his family, who is being - you know, being asked to confront things about his dad. I was in \"Hamlet\" with - "}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 31, "text": "Yeah. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it was a hot mess. It was a total hot mess."}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 32, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Alan Cumming. His new memoir is called \"Baggage.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And really, it was just - and it was just, you know - and then suddenly saying to someone, you know, who you'd been very assiduously trying to get pregnant with - suddenly saying, oh, I don't want to "}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 33, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Alan Cumming. His new memoir is called \"Baggage.\" I want to ask you about working with Stanley Kubrick. You were in his 1997 film \"Eyes Wide Shut.\" And it's funny. You know, you auditioned with an American accent. And then when he saw you as yourself, after you got the part, he said, you're not American. You were American on the tapes. Were you afraid...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And really, it was just - and it was just, you know - and then suddenly saying to someone, you know, who you'd been very assiduously trying to get pregnant with - suddenly saying, oh, I don't want to "}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 34, "text": "Yeah. Why was he angry, and what do you - what did you fear the consequences would be? Did you fear there would be consequences?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was furious."}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 35, "text": "Yeah. You said that if it wasn't for Kubrick, you might not still be an actor today. Tell us a little more about working with him. Like, when he would ask you for another take, what would he tell you about what he wanted?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's funny. I felt kind of - I mean, I never met him until I - I only auditioned on tape and for some producers. I never actually met Stanley. So I was - the first day I was meeting him was - I walk o"}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 36, "text": "You've written several books, including fiction and two memoirs. You were writing when you were a teenager. You got a job at a publishing company that did, I think, newspapers and magazines.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I met my match in terms of, you know, big heightened performances because I - you know, there's a saying in Scotland is, you can be as big as you like as long as you mean it. And I feel that was - Sta"}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 37, "text": "And so this was in Scotland.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yeah. DC Thomson, it's called. And I had gotten..."}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 38, "text": "One of the things you did when you were working for this publishing company is you started modeling for photo stories.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is in Scotland. It's in Dundee. I was - like, I left school at 16. I thought, what am I going to do? I've got to - I mean, I was going to be sort of chucked out of the house unless I got a job. A"}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 39, "text": "And one of the photos you reprint in the book...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 40, "text": "Oh, but I'm going to describe it with your help. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm so glad this is a radio program and we can't show the actual pictures because that's happened..."}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 41, "text": "There's a photo of you with your - you're lying on your side with your...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, God."}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 42, "text": "...Head propped up on your elbow. You're wearing these, like, short shorts, a sleeveless T-shirt...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 43, "text": "One of those, like, strap T-shirts. And it's a...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very short."}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 44, "text": "And a headband, yes, because this is, like, a 1970s kind of thing...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think there's a headband, isn't there?"}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 45, "text": "...Or '80s. And you really look like you're posing for a gay magazine", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A sweatband. Yeah."}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 46, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A sweatband. Yeah."}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 47, "text": "But it was just - it was a teen magazine. What do you think about when you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 48, "text": "Thank you so much for coming back to our show. I really enjoyed speaking with you again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But, I mean, I look back at it, and I just - I think, actually, it's, you know, the thing you mentioned earlier, that I always looked younger than I actually was. When I was - I was 16, 17 doing tho"}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 49, "text": "I like the way you said that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's always lovely to be probed by you, Terry."}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 50, "text": "It sounds like a horrible visit to the doctor's office.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mercilessly probed."}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 51, "text": "Alan Cumming, thank you again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mercilessly probed."}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 52, "text": "Alan Cumming's new memoir is called \"Baggage.\" Here's a song from the album of his cabaret show \"Alan Cumming Sings Sappy Songs.\" This is the Noel Coward song \"If Love Were All.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1065140867", "date": "2021-12-20", "guest": "Alan Cumming", "title": "'Cabaret' actor Alan Cumming unpacks his 'Baggage' in a new memoir", "question_index": 53, "text": "After we take a short break, Maureen Corrigan will review a new memoir by a former journalist who spent months interviewing men who work on oil rigs and ended up falling for one of them. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I believe in doing what I can, crying when I must, laughing when I choose. Hey, ho, if love were all, I would be lonely. I believe the more you love a man, the more you give your trust, the "}
{"id": "1066262235", "date": "2021-12-22", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Penelope Cruz, stars in \"Parallel Mothers,\" the new movie written and directed by Pedro Almodovar. I know I'm not alone in thinking he's one of the best working filmmakers in the world. \"Parallel Mothers\" is on a bunch of 10 best lists, including our film critic's, Justin Chang. It has a Golden Globe nomination for best foreign language film. Cruz was named this year's best actress by the LA Film Critics Association. She's at the emotional center of several Almodovar films, including \"All About My Mother,\" \"Volver,\" \"Broken Embraces\" and \"Pain And Glory.\" She became the first Spanish actress to win an Oscar when she won best supporting actress for her performance in the 2008 film \"Vicky Cristina Barcelona.\" She's also the first Spanish actress to have a star on the Hollywood Walk of Fame. She was nominated for an Emmy for her portrayal of Donatella Versace in the TV series \"The Assassination Of Gianni Versace.\" The new film, \"Parallel Mothers,\" is set in Madrid and revolves around two women who accidentally became pregnant. Cruz plays Janis, a professional photographer around 40 years old who's thrilled to be pregnant, although she's no longer with the father. Her roommate in the maternity wing is a teenager named Ana, who's filled with regret about having become pregnant. Their lives intertwine in increasingly surprising ways. In addition to telling the story of these two parallel mothers, the movie finds the parallels between the pain and necessity of being honest about your own past and about your country's dark past. Penelope Cruz, welcome to FRESH AIR. I love this film. I love your performance in it and your performance in so many other films as well. So thank you for coming on our show.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1066262235", "date": "2021-12-22", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 1, "text": "You have two children. What did you discuss with Almodovar about how to portray the birth scene at the beginning of the film, which is such an important scene that kind of sets the tone for the rest of the film?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much."}
{"id": "1066262235", "date": "2021-12-22", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 2, "text": "Did you draw on a lot of memories of your births when you were making that scene?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I even wanted to know, like, how much are they dilated, like, in the conversation in the room before the next scene where they are already pushing? And I think that was a little too extreme fo"}
{"id": "1066262235", "date": "2021-12-22", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 3, "text": "The movie also portrays just, like, the physical bond between a mother and her child and the experience of, like, touching a newborn baby and then continuing to, like, hold the baby after you take the baby home and what that feels like, like, the touch. How do you express that on camera? How do you express that emotion that - it's so interior.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's true that I try not to mix my own experiences that are related to people that I love in my life, but it's impossible not to. I try not to force it. I try, like, not to force the exercise of imagi"}
{"id": "1066262235", "date": "2021-12-22", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 4, "text": "Yeah. Whose baby was it? I always wonder, how do you get infants for a movie?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's the strongest feeling that I have experienced. And it's true that when we were shooting and I saw the face of this little baby that was so tiny, of course, in that moment, I revisit all the"}
{"id": "1066262235", "date": "2021-12-22", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 5, "text": "Do you think being a mother has changed your acting or your range of emotions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And that baby was 1 month old, but it was very tiny, so it looked like a few days old. And the mother - and the mother and the father of all these babies that are in the movie, they were very - "}
{"id": "1066262235", "date": "2021-12-22", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 6, "text": "So I want to quote something that Pedro Almodovar says in the press kit for \"Parallel Mothers.\" He said - and I quote - directing her - Penelope Cruz - \"directing her has been a meticulous process where I needed her to surrender herself to me, as if in a state of hypnosis. I contained the flood of tears. Penelope's very emotional, and she would have been crying from start to finish, and she knew how to replace the tears with the exact amount of guilt and shame, in a state of constant alarm.\" What does it mean when he says he wanted you to surrender yourself to him as if in a state of hypnosis?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it has changed everything in me, the way I see life, the way I feel things, the way I can never think about myself first and the way it affects my work for sure because I leave everything even"}
{"id": "1066262235", "date": "2021-12-22", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I always do that when I'm working with him. Sometimes when I'm working with other directors and they don't want to rehearse, they don't want to block time to rehearse or, for whatever reason, it"}
{"id": "1066262235", "date": "2021-12-22", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Penelope Cruz. She stars in Pedro Almodovar's new movie \"Parallel Mothers.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But she doesn't. She doesn't. She expresses that in a very different way. And to get to that point where I could be able to do some of those scenes without exploding, without crying, without expressin"}
{"id": "1066262235", "date": "2021-12-22", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Penelope Cruz. She stars in Pedro Almodovar's new movie \"Parallel Mothers.\" She starred or co-starred in several of his films, including \"All About My Mother,\" \"Broken Embraces\" and \"Pain And Glory.\" In 2009, she won an Oscar for her supporting role in \"Vicky Cristina Barcelona,\" making her the first Spanish actress to win an Oscar. I want to talk with you about another theme in the movie, and that is a much more political theme, and it has to do with reckoning with the legacy of the Spanish Civil War, in which the fascists won, leading to a decades-long dictatorship of Francisco Franco. How political was your family when you were growing up? Because you were born the year before Franco died. So you didn't live under his dictatorship, but your family did, and everybody older than you did.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But she doesn't. She doesn't. She expresses that in a very different way. And to get to that point where I could be able to do some of those scenes without exploding, without crying, without expressin"}
{"id": "1066262235", "date": "2021-12-22", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was born in '74. And I mean, the rest of the '70s - too young to remember. But in the '80s, there was really, like, a feeling in the year of, like, chance for freedom, freedom of expression. Like, w"}
{"id": "1066262235", "date": "2021-12-22", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 11, "text": "Yeah. Can I just interrupt and say that he was part of - he was a major part of what was known as La Movida, which was, like, the movement. And this was, like, after Franco's death, when artists were no longer going to be censored, there was this, like, outburst of new creative, lively art that - my understanding is - I know when I talked to Antonio Banderas, who's also worked with Almodovar, he talked about how this - this movement had, like, punk rock and sexuality, joy, color, LGBTQ characters, and Almodovar was famous for that. You know, he was one of the first filmmakers to have LGBTQ characters being just people, not like - this is a problem or this is an issue. They were just, like, people in the film.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would remember, like, being a little girl and seeing him also as some kind of political figure because it was so necessary to have somebody like that in those years, that through art and through his"}
{"id": "1066262235", "date": "2021-12-22", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 12, "text": "You wanted to meet Almodovar so badly. You wanted to be in his films. You used to - when you were young - I don't know how old, you can tell me - you used to stand outside of his home, I guess, hoping to catch a glimpse of him. Did you see him when you would - how old were you - did you see him when you were doing that? And did he see you? Did he think you were a stalker?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. And that's maybe what I mean by that, that even if I was not part of the Movida, and Movida was - a part of it was really crazy. But there was something else behind it that was his message an"}
{"id": "1066262235", "date": "2021-12-22", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 13, "text": "So in Almodovar's film \"Pain And Glory,\" you play the mother of a boy who becomes an acclaimed filmmaker in Spain. And there's a twist on that which I won't give away. It's a wonderful movie, and I want people to see the surprises in the movie as they unfold. But mothers so often figure into his films, and he seems to just have such deep emotions about mothers, and I assume about his mother. Did you meet his mother when you were playing his mother?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I mean, the first time, I was really obsessed with his films, so sometimes I would go to the cinema or to a bar, to a place. And I would say to my friends, you're going to see - we're going to see"}
{"id": "1066262235", "date": "2021-12-22", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 14, "text": "Let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Penelope Cruz. She stars in the new movie \"Parallel Mothers,\" which was written and directed by Pedro Almodovar. We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, because she was not with us anymore, unfortunately. But I met her many years ago when they were giving an award to Pedro, and we all went to the ceremony with him. And, of course, I tried to spend"}
{"id": "1066262235", "date": "2021-12-22", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Penelope Cruz. She stars in Pedro Almodovar's new movie \"Parallel Mothers.\" She's starred or co-starred in several of his films, including \"All About My Mother,\" \"Broken Embraces\" and \"Pain And Glory.\" In 2009, she won an Oscar for her supporting role in \"Vicky Cristina Barcelona,\" making her the first Spanish actress to win an Oscar. You studied ballet for many years and started studying ballet as a child. Did you think you were going to be a ballet dancer? Was that your ambition?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, because she was not with us anymore, unfortunately. But I met her many years ago when they were giving an award to Pedro, and we all went to the ceremony with him. And, of course, I tried to spend"}
{"id": "1066262235", "date": "2021-12-22", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah - from the time I was 4, and I was doing many hours a week. I was asking my teacher to let me play Carmen at 4. I always had an attraction to twisted characters. She said, maybe you are a little "}
{"id": "1066262235", "date": "2021-12-22", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 17, "text": "You know, I think of ballet as being so traditional and with a lot of things that you have to conform to. You have to do the steps a certain way. A lot of ballet teachers want your hair to be a certain way and your body to be a certain way. And the contrast between that and, say, Almodovar's films, where there are so many - such a wide range of characters who don't conform to social rules. And he loves those characters for that. So it sounds like two opposite ends of culture.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I said to her, no, but I do understand her. And why can I not play her if I understand her? When I was 13, I was in the theater school doing \"The Maids\" from Jean Genet. So always my tendency was that"}
{"id": "1066262235", "date": "2021-12-22", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 18, "text": "Where did you grow up? And what was your neighborhood like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. But I think if I wouldn't have had that background and that discipline of the world of ballet - classical ballet - I don't know how I would have handled some of the pressure of some of the movie"}
{"id": "1066262235", "date": "2021-12-22", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 19, "text": "How much have you wanted an acting career in Hollywood?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I grew up in an area that is called Alcobendas and an area that is called San Sebastian de los Reyes. They are together, very close to each other. And I was all day from one place to the other, walkin"}
{"id": "1066262235", "date": "2021-12-22", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 20, "text": "You initially came to the U.S. to study in English. How did you study English? What kind of classes did you take?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course, I wanted to work also in America - in American movies. And I came here to study English when I was, like, 19. And then I came back. I was working more and more in Europe. But then I did a c"}
{"id": "1066262235", "date": "2021-12-22", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 21, "text": "Was it hard to learn it? English is a - I think a very difficult language. There's all these rules. But it's all these exceptions to the rule. So it's often, like, not helpful.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what happened is that before that, I studied French. And then I knew if I also wanted to work here, I had to do, like, an intensive, you know, year of English. And I came to Greenwich Village to"}
{"id": "1066262235", "date": "2021-12-22", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was always fighting with all the teachers. That was the thing that was driving me crazy at the beginning. But no - why? Explain to me why. What is the logic?"}
{"id": "1066262235", "date": "2021-12-22", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 23, "text": "So you're married to Javier Bardem. And you're both in new movies now. You're, of course, in \"Parallel Mothers.\" And he's in \"Being The Ricardos,\" playing Desi Arnaz. So how did you first meet? Did you meet on set?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I love this language, so - I just love languages. I love them so much. And I hope I can learn many more."}
{"id": "1066262235", "date": "2021-12-22", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 24, "text": "You haven't been married nearly that long. How many years after you met did you become a couple?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1066262235", "date": "2021-12-22", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 25, "text": "Have you worked together since becoming a couple?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no. We've been together like 15 years. But we know each other for - you know, we've been friends before that."}
{"id": "1066262235", "date": "2021-12-22", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 26, "text": "So you're in your 40s now. And for a lot of actresses, that has, in the past, meant roles are going to dry up because men always seem to have longer acting careers than women. And they were able to be, like, romantic leads at older ages than women. And I'm wondering if that's been an issue for you or if you feel like you're still getting roles that you want. And certainly, \"Parallel Mothers\" is an example of a role you really want, and certainly, the movie before that from, I guess, 2018, \"Pain And Glory.\" So - but I'm wondering if that's an issue for you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We love working together - but not something that I would want to do every year. That is, like, once in a while. But I think he's such an incredible actor. I love working with him. And, of course, it "}
{"id": "1066262235", "date": "2021-12-22", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 27, "text": "Well, I want to thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I feel like, maybe, as women, we have to stop putting it in those words because it is a way to feed that monster. I feel like, the last few years, I've gotten some of the most interesting characters t"}
{"id": "1066262235", "date": "2021-12-22", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 28, "text": "Penelope Cruz stars in the new movie \"Parallel Mothers,\" written and directed by Pedro Almodovar.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I thank you. Thank you so much for this conversation."}
{"id": "1066262235", "date": "2021-12-22", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 29, "text": "After we take a short break, our film critic, Justin Chang, will tell us about his list of his favorite films of the year, which includes \"Parallel Mothers.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I thank you. Thank you so much for this conversation."}
{"id": "1066835433", "date": "2021-12-23", "guest": "Ryan Reilly", "title": "How a group of online sleuths are helping the FBI track down Jan. 6 rioters", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're approaching the first anniversary of the January 6 Capitol riot. The insurrection has led to what my guest, Ryan Reilly, calls an unprecedented probe reshaping the federal government's approach to domestic terrorism. He says the FBI has arrested over 700 people, and that represents only about a quarter of the total number of individuals who engaged in chargeable criminal conduct that day. The FBI is still looking for more than 350 members of the mob who engaged in violence, including more than 250 still wanted for assaulting law enforcement. The FBI has gotten a lot of assistance from a loose network of amateur online sleuths known as Sedition Hunters, who have used videos taken that day, social media posts, facial recognition software and Google to identify many of the rioters, including ones who assaulted police. Reilly has kept in touch with members of this network, as well as doing some of his own investigative work, and has publicly revealed some of the rioters' identities in his articles. He's also been reporting on the trials and sentences of the rioters and what the judges have had to say. He's senior justice correspondent for HuffPost. Ryan Reilly, welcome to FRESH AIR. In what way is the FBI's manhunt unprecedented?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1066835433", "date": "2021-12-23", "guest": "Ryan Reilly", "title": "How a group of online sleuths are helping the FBI track down Jan. 6 rioters", "question_index": 1, "text": "In some ways, it seems like, oh, but it should be simple for the FBI to track these people down because they've been captured on video. So what are some of the obstacles the FBI faces in spite of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The scope of it, first of all, is just enormous. It's nothing like the FBI has ever done before. In the immediate aftermath of the attack on the Capitol, the FBI started putting out images of people w"}
{"id": "1066835433", "date": "2021-12-23", "guest": "Ryan Reilly", "title": "How a group of online sleuths are helping the FBI track down Jan. 6 rioters", "question_index": 2, "text": "How often have you been the conduit between the digital sleuths and the FBI?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that just the sheer magnitude of it is really a major challenge here. When the FBI opened up their tip line in those early days, they received 200,000 - over 200,000 tips. So they're literally"}
{"id": "1066835433", "date": "2021-12-23", "guest": "Ryan Reilly", "title": "How a group of online sleuths are helping the FBI track down Jan. 6 rioters", "question_index": 3, "text": "So a lot of information about who the Capitol rioters were and who assaulted police, a lot of information is coming from this network of amateur online digital sleuths loosely going under the name Sedition Hunters. Tell us more about that network and how it was formed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In a few cases, I've - we've definitely sort of played a role. There's the Danny Rodriguez case. And then with Robert Scott Palmer, that was a case - he's actually at this moment the defendant who's b"}
{"id": "1066835433", "date": "2021-12-23", "guest": "Ryan Reilly", "title": "How a group of online sleuths are helping the FBI track down Jan. 6 rioters", "question_index": 4, "text": "So tell us more about how these amateur detectives online are using facial recognition software.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A lot of this kicked off actually around this image, this very sort of grabbing image that was snapped from above the tunnel, the tunnel on the side of the - on the west side of the Capitol. At the to"}
{"id": "1066835433", "date": "2021-12-23", "guest": "Ryan Reilly", "title": "How a group of online sleuths are helping the FBI track down Jan. 6 rioters", "question_index": 5, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Ryan Reilly, and he's the senior justice correspondent for HuffPost. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, facial recognition is a component of this. But it's sort of - the way that they've thought about it is that it's a good lead to follow. So you have to confirm it through other methods."}
{"id": "1066835433", "date": "2021-12-23", "guest": "Ryan Reilly", "title": "How a group of online sleuths are helping the FBI track down Jan. 6 rioters", "question_index": 6, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Ryan Reilly, senior justice correspondent for HuffPost. He's been reporting on the loose network of amateur online sleuths who have been tracking down the identities of insurrectionists who breached the Capitol and assaulted police on January 6. He's also done his own investigative work tracking down rioters. He's publicly revealed the identities of some of them. He's also been reporting on the trials and sentences of the insurrectionists and the opinions of the judges. So there are some interesting stories about how people became online digital detectives looking for the identities of people who breached the Capitol and assaulted officers on January 6. Tell us a story of one of them. In particular, I'm going to ask you about somebody who goes by the name Amy for the purposes of your article 'cause she wants to remain anonymous. And she was not a professional at this by any means. How did she start doing this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, facial recognition is a component of this. But it's sort of - the way that they've thought about it is that it's a good lead to follow. So you have to confirm it through other methods."}
{"id": "1066835433", "date": "2021-12-23", "guest": "Ryan Reilly", "title": "How a group of online sleuths are helping the FBI track down Jan. 6 rioters", "question_index": 7, "text": "Well, I could see why they might have thought they'd get away with it because no one was arrested. I mean, everybody who breached the Capitol - they committed a crime, but they were allowed to just walk out and go home or go wherever. And I - my understanding is that's because the police just wanted them out of there before things got worse and that the idea of getting them out seemed to take priority over the idea of arresting them. Just, like, get them out of there, straighten things out in the Capitol, protect the people who are there, protect the building itself. Do I have that right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So actually, Amy was home sick with COVID last January during the Capitol attack and was watching this unfold and was obviously very disturbed by what she saw unfolding on her television screen "}
{"id": "1066835433", "date": "2021-12-23", "guest": "Ryan Reilly", "title": "How a group of online sleuths are helping the FBI track down Jan. 6 rioters", "question_index": 8, "text": "Now, let me get back to Robert Scott Palmer. Palmer is the guy who sprayed police with a fire extinguisher and then threw the empty canister at them. He was sentenced to 63 months, the longest sentence so far. What did the judge have to say at the sentencing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's right. There were really only a handful of arrests that day, and it really is just, I mean, sheer manpower. There were individuals who were actually placed into custody and then released "}
{"id": "1066835433", "date": "2021-12-23", "guest": "Ryan Reilly", "title": "How a group of online sleuths are helping the FBI track down Jan. 6 rioters", "question_index": 9, "text": "What was he convicted of?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, you know, Robert Scott Palmer sort of expressed this idea that he was sorry for what he did. He actually wrote a letter to the judge and said that he realized now that he had been tricked by Tru"}
{"id": "1066835433", "date": "2021-12-23", "guest": "Ryan Reilly", "title": "How a group of online sleuths are helping the FBI track down Jan. 6 rioters", "question_index": 10, "text": "Let's take a short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Ryan Reilly, senior justice correspondent for HuffPost. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was convicted of assaulting an officer, a federal officer, with a deadly weapon. That canister was considered a deadly weapon. So we had seen another case where there was an assault on an officer. "}
{"id": "1066835433", "date": "2021-12-23", "guest": "Ryan Reilly", "title": "How a group of online sleuths are helping the FBI track down Jan. 6 rioters", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Ryan Reilly, senior justice correspondent for HuffPost. He's been reporting on the loose network of amateur online sleuths who have been tracking down the identities of insurrectionists who breached the Capitol and assaulted police officers on January 6. He's also done his own investigative work tracking down rioters. He's publicly revealed the identities of some of them. He's also been reporting on the trials and sentences of the insurrectionists and the rulings of judges. How has the FBI been using tech companies, including phone companies, social media companies - has the FBI asked them to cooperate in the FBI investigation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was convicted of assaulting an officer, a federal officer, with a deadly weapon. That canister was considered a deadly weapon. So we had seen another case where there was an assault on an officer. "}
{"id": "1066835433", "date": "2021-12-23", "guest": "Ryan Reilly", "title": "How a group of online sleuths are helping the FBI track down Jan. 6 rioters", "question_index": 12, "text": "What is a geofence?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So the FBI has issued a number of subpoenas to tech companies and phone companies that have been very useful in this investigation. Essentially, what they've done is they've drawn this sort of g"}
{"id": "1066835433", "date": "2021-12-23", "guest": "Ryan Reilly", "title": "How a group of online sleuths are helping the FBI track down Jan. 6 rioters", "question_index": 13, "text": "So my understanding from what you're saying is that the FBI is only asking for information from tech companies of people who clearly breached that geofence. In other words, people who clearly entered the Capitol and by doing so committed a crime. Have the tech companies been cooperating with the FBI so far?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So a geofence is essentially a digital guide that's basically encircling the Capitol, but just specifically the very limits of the Capitol Building. So they'll be able to distinguish between someone w"}
{"id": "1066835433", "date": "2021-12-23", "guest": "Ryan Reilly", "title": "How a group of online sleuths are helping the FBI track down Jan. 6 rioters", "question_index": 14, "text": "So is this use of tech companies setting any precedents that are likely to be applied in the future?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, the tech companies have. They've been providing information. You know, Google provided a lot of information through whoever had their Gmail application open within the Capitol - that building th"}
{"id": "1066835433", "date": "2021-12-23", "guest": "Ryan Reilly", "title": "How a group of online sleuths are helping the FBI track down Jan. 6 rioters", "question_index": 15, "text": "One of the digital sleuths who you spoke to is a woman who's going by the name Claire (ph) - again, she wants to remain anonymous. She used the dating app Bumble to track someone down. What was - tell us about what distinguishes Bumble as a dating app and how she used it to try to search for insurrectionists.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that this investigation could have broader implications going forward, just in terms of normalizing the use of facial recognition, for example. I think that because of its success rate in this"}
{"id": "1066835433", "date": "2021-12-23", "guest": "Ryan Reilly", "title": "How a group of online sleuths are helping the FBI track down Jan. 6 rioters", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Ryan Reilly, senior justice correspondent for HuffPost. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So Bumble, what makes Bumble unique about - as a dating app - and this is something that I have to know from my single friends because I haven't ever been on any of these dating apps - but Bumbl"}
{"id": "1066835433", "date": "2021-12-23", "guest": "Ryan Reilly", "title": "How a group of online sleuths are helping the FBI track down Jan. 6 rioters", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Ryan Reilly, senior justice correspondent for HuffPost. He's been reporting on the loose network of amateur online sleuths who have been tracking down the identities of insurrectionists who breached the Capitol and assaulted police on January 6. He's also been reporting on the trials and sentences of the insurrectionists and the rulings of the judges. So the stories of how some of the digital detectives found insurrectionists are so interesting. I want to get to another story about how a digital detective found someone who had breached the Capitol. And the person who breached the Capitol in this case is Brent Bozell IV, who goes by the name Zeeker. He is the son of Brent Bozell III, who's a prominent right-wing activist who founded several organizations opposing what he calls liberal media bias, including NewsBusters and the Media Research Center. So the son, Brent Bozell IV - aka Zeeker - was charged with three federal offenses. What were those offenses?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So Bumble, what makes Bumble unique about - as a dating app - and this is something that I have to know from my single friends because I haven't ever been on any of these dating apps - but Bumbl"}
{"id": "1066835433", "date": "2021-12-23", "guest": "Ryan Reilly", "title": "How a group of online sleuths are helping the FBI track down Jan. 6 rioters", "question_index": 18, "text": "So how did a digital detective track him down? What were his identifying characteristics on videos?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was charged with some offenses - more serious offenses because he entered the well of the Senate. They've sort of escalated any charges against people who actually entered that chamber, that Senate"}
{"id": "1066835433", "date": "2021-12-23", "guest": "Ryan Reilly", "title": "How a group of online sleuths are helping the FBI track down Jan. 6 rioters", "question_index": 19, "text": "Before Zeeker was arrested, his father, Brent Bozell III, denounced the rioters on Fox. And he said, I am heartsick about that element that has been so destructive and has done so much damage to a very noble cause. But the damage they have done to conservatives like me is profound. At that point, I presume he didn't know that his son was one of those rioters that he had denounced. Did he make any statements after his son's arrest?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So Zeeker Bozell was wearing this sweatshirt with his children's school on it. So basically, someone was able to use that information, go onto Facebook and go through every person who had liked "}
{"id": "1066835433", "date": "2021-12-23", "guest": "Ryan Reilly", "title": "How a group of online sleuths are helping the FBI track down Jan. 6 rioters", "question_index": 20, "text": "I think, the most distinctive-looking person who really, like, stood out from the crowd on January 6 was Jacob Chansley - aka the QAnon Shaman. And he's stood trial. What's his status now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not that I know of. I think it's something that they've just sort of ignored. But I think that that is certainly something that's going to come up down the line in his son's case, in Zeeker Bozell's c"}
{"id": "1066835433", "date": "2021-12-23", "guest": "Ryan Reilly", "title": "How a group of online sleuths are helping the FBI track down Jan. 6 rioters", "question_index": 21, "text": "So with the QAnon Shaman, his defense argued that he had serious mental health problems. Did the judge take that into account? And I wonder if any of the other prominent people in the assault on the Capitol had mental health problems, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So he actually was sentenced. He got, I believe, 41 months in federal prison. And, I think, in comparison to some of the other cases, he's probably got the most - the harshest penalty for someon"}
{"id": "1066835433", "date": "2021-12-23", "guest": "Ryan Reilly", "title": "How a group of online sleuths are helping the FBI track down Jan. 6 rioters", "question_index": 22, "text": "So one of the men who breached the Capitol was in tears when he was questioned by the FBI, and one of the things he was worried about was that his mother would find out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, mental health problems are definitely an ongoing issue here, which is really, I think, what is so scary about these conspiracy theories about the stolen election floating out there, beca"}
{"id": "1066835433", "date": "2021-12-23", "guest": "Ryan Reilly", "title": "How a group of online sleuths are helping the FBI track down Jan. 6 rioters", "question_index": 23, "text": "How did you decide that you were going to really focus on the insurrectionists, identifying them, following their cases in the courts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So Danny Rodriguez, who was the individual who drove that stun gun into Officer Mike Fanone's neck on January 6, he was arrested back in March. And we've now seen the videotape of his confession"}
{"id": "1066835433", "date": "2021-12-23", "guest": "Ryan Reilly", "title": "How a group of online sleuths are helping the FBI track down Jan. 6 rioters", "question_index": 24, "text": "Ryan Reilly, thank you so much for talking with us. And I wish you Happy Holidays and a healthy 2022.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, you know, I mean, as soon as this happened, I realized that it was going to take over my beat. And as soon as this FBI investigation popped up, I was pursuing that. I don't think in those early "}
{"id": "1066835433", "date": "2021-12-23", "guest": "Ryan Reilly", "title": "How a group of online sleuths are helping the FBI track down Jan. 6 rioters", "question_index": 25, "text": "Ryan Reilly is senior justice correspondent for HuffPost. After we take a short break, Justin Chang will review the new film \"The Tragedy of Macbeth,\" starring Denzel Washington and Frances McDormand. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks so much."}
{"id": "1066327058", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Susannah Mccorkle", "title": "Jazz singer Susannah McCorkle performs a holiday concert for 'Fresh Air'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're celebrating Christmas Eve with excerpts of shows from our archive. Next, we go all the way back to 1988 for a great concert of Christmas songs performed by the late Susannah McCorkle. 1988 was also the year she was described as the outstanding female jazz singer of her generation by jazz critic Francis Davis. Full disclosure - he's my husband. Susannah was also a writer and translator, and her love of language was apparent in her interpretation of lyrics. Joining Susannah for this concert in our studio was pianist Lee Musiker and bass player Dean Johnson. They opened with one of my favorite Christmas songs, written by Hugh Martin and Ralph Blaine for the 1944 Judy Garland movie \"Meet Me In St. Louis.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1066327058", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Susannah Mccorkle", "title": "Jazz singer Susannah McCorkle performs a holiday concert for 'Fresh Air'", "question_index": 1, "text": "I think it's one of the best Christmas songs", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Have yourself a merry little Christmas. Let your heart be light. From now on, our troubles will be out of sight. Have yourself a merry little Christmas. Make the Yuletide gay. From now on, o"}
{"id": "1066327058", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Susannah Mccorkle", "title": "Jazz singer Susannah McCorkle performs a holiday concert for 'Fresh Air'", "question_index": 2, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Have yourself a merry little Christmas. Let your heart be light. From now on, our troubles will be out of sight. Have yourself a merry little Christmas. Make the Yuletide gay. From now on, o"}
{"id": "1066327058", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Susannah Mccorkle", "title": "Jazz singer Susannah McCorkle performs a holiday concert for 'Fresh Air'", "question_index": 3, "text": "I'm glad you opened with it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is, yes."}
{"id": "1066327058", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Susannah Mccorkle", "title": "Jazz singer Susannah McCorkle performs a holiday concert for 'Fresh Air'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Susannah, the next song you're going to do is a song I've never heard, so I'm especially glad you're going to do it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Christmas is sad. There is always a longing about Christmas, longing for what we never knew, even, except from the movies."}
{"id": "1066327058", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Susannah Mccorkle", "title": "Jazz singer Susannah McCorkle performs a holiday concert for 'Fresh Air'", "question_index": 5, "text": "That's a good song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. I only know one recorded version of it by the great Fats Waller, one of my favorite musicians, made in the 1930s. I know the melody was written by Sam Coslow, who wrote \"My Old Flame.\" I gu"}
{"id": "1066327058", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Susannah Mccorkle", "title": "Jazz singer Susannah McCorkle performs a holiday concert for 'Fresh Air'", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. All-purpose holiday song for any band..."}
{"id": "1066327058", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Susannah Mccorkle", "title": "Jazz singer Susannah McCorkle performs a holiday concert for 'Fresh Air'", "question_index": 7, "text": "And I'm sure that comes in really handy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Any society (ph) band."}
{"id": "1066327058", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Susannah Mccorkle", "title": "Jazz singer Susannah McCorkle performs a holiday concert for 'Fresh Air'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, the next song you're going to do is much more familiar.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1066327058", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Susannah Mccorkle", "title": "Jazz singer Susannah McCorkle performs a holiday concert for 'Fresh Air'", "question_index": 9, "text": "We're listening to the Christmas concert recorded in 1988 by the late Susannah McCorkle, accompanied by Lee Musiker on piano and Dean Johnson on bass. We'll hear more of that concert after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, this is dedicated to a great musician, Mel Torme. Gave us a Christmas song that they'll be singing into the next century, I'm sure. (Singing) Chestnuts roasting on an open fire, Jack Frost nippin"}
{"id": "1066327058", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Susannah Mccorkle", "title": "Jazz singer Susannah McCorkle performs a holiday concert for 'Fresh Air'", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the Christmas concert recorded in our studio in 1988 with the late singer Susannah McCorkle, accompanied by Lee Musiker on piano and Dean Johnson bass.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, this is dedicated to a great musician, Mel Torme. Gave us a Christmas song that they'll be singing into the next century, I'm sure. (Singing) Chestnuts roasting on an open fire, Jack Frost nippin"}
{"id": "1066327058", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Susannah Mccorkle", "title": "Jazz singer Susannah McCorkle performs a holiday concert for 'Fresh Air'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Can you sing \"Winter Wonderland\" for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, this is dedicated to a great musician, Mel Torme. Gave us a Christmas song that they'll be singing into the next century, I'm sure. (Singing) Chestnuts roasting on an open fire, Jack Frost nippin"}
{"id": "1066327058", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Susannah Mccorkle", "title": "Jazz singer Susannah McCorkle performs a holiday concert for 'Fresh Air'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Winter Wonderland\" we're going to do?"}
{"id": "1066327058", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Susannah Mccorkle", "title": "Jazz singer Susannah McCorkle performs a holiday concert for 'Fresh Air'", "question_index": 13, "text": "Great", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. One, two, three four. (Singing) Sleigh bells ring. Are you listening? In the lane, snow is glistening. A beautiful sight, we're happy tonight walking in a winter Wonderland. Gone away is the blueb"}
{"id": "1066327058", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Susannah Mccorkle", "title": "Jazz singer Susannah McCorkle performs a holiday concert for 'Fresh Air'", "question_index": 14, "text": ". Susannah, every year are you called on to sing Christmas songs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. One, two, three four. (Singing) Sleigh bells ring. Are you listening? In the lane, snow is glistening. A beautiful sight, we're happy tonight walking in a winter Wonderland. Gone away is the blueb"}
{"id": "1066327058", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Susannah Mccorkle", "title": "Jazz singer Susannah McCorkle performs a holiday concert for 'Fresh Air'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Oh, yes", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I am, but I'm - I don't mind it. I love special occasions and holidays. I really like doing them, and there are a lot of beautiful Christmas songs. I really - I like all the carols, too. But there's a"}
{"id": "1066327058", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Susannah Mccorkle", "title": "Jazz singer Susannah McCorkle performs a holiday concert for 'Fresh Air'", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I am, but I'm - I don't mind it. I love special occasions and holidays. I really like doing them, and there are a lot of beautiful Christmas songs. I really - I like all the carols, too. But there's a"}
{"id": "1066327058", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Susannah Mccorkle", "title": "Jazz singer Susannah McCorkle performs a holiday concert for 'Fresh Air'", "question_index": 17, "text": "A good vote", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd say that's one that I don't want to sing."}
{"id": "1066327058", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Susannah Mccorkle", "title": "Jazz singer Susannah McCorkle performs a holiday concert for 'Fresh Air'", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd say that's one that I don't want to sing."}
{"id": "1066327058", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Susannah Mccorkle", "title": "Jazz singer Susannah McCorkle performs a holiday concert for 'Fresh Air'", "question_index": 19, "text": "Well, you're going to do a nice one next.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I could really hear the songwriters cranking that one out. Let's come up with a Christmas song."}
{"id": "1066327058", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Susannah Mccorkle", "title": "Jazz singer Susannah McCorkle performs a holiday concert for 'Fresh Air'", "question_index": 20, "text": "That was a beautiful version of that. You sang that beautifully.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I'm going to do one that I think is the most evocative one about Christmas for all of us, because many of us won't be going home for Christmas or can't be going home for Christmas or the home th"}
{"id": "1066327058", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Susannah Mccorkle", "title": "Jazz singer Susannah McCorkle performs a holiday concert for 'Fresh Air'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Thank you for a very, very beautiful concert.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. I love that song."}
{"id": "1066327058", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Susannah Mccorkle", "title": "Jazz singer Susannah McCorkle performs a holiday concert for 'Fresh Air'", "question_index": 22, "text": "That was gorgeous. That was Susannah McCorkle, recorded in 1988 in our studio, with pianist Lee Musiker and bass player Dean Johnson. Susannah died in 2001. I'm always grateful we have several of her performances in our archive. Next week on FRESH AIR, we try to end another challenging year on an upbeat note with a series of interviews from 2021 that we enjoyed. We begin with Kieran Culkin, one of the stars of HBO's \"Succession.\" When he was a child, he was featured in the hit movie \"Home Alone,\" which starred his brother, Macaulay. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We've loved doing it. Thank you for inviting us."}
{"id": "1066327058", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Susannah Mccorkle", "title": "Jazz singer Susannah McCorkle performs a holiday concert for 'Fresh Air'", "question_index": 23, "text": "All of us at FRESH AIR wish you a merry and, most of all, a healthy Christmas. And if you or someone you're close to has COVID, we send our best wishes for a speedy recovery. I hope next Christmas, I don't need to say the word COVID. I'm Terry Gross. (OUNDBITE OF DAVE MCKENNA'S \"I'LL BE HOME FOR CHRISTMAS\")", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We've loved doing it. Thank you for inviting us."}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. I guess it goes without saying that this is another strange and kind of stressful COVID Christmas. Today, we're going to take a few steps back in time and go deep into our archive to pull out some Christmas shows we love. Our first stop is 2004, when filmmaker and writer John Waters came on our show to play music from his album \"A John Waters Christmas,\" a collection of entertaining and ridiculous Christmas songs that reflect his fascination with the odd and unusual.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 1, "text": "That's Tiny Tim. And it's one of the least unusual tracks on \"A John Waters Christmas.\" Waters is best known for his midnight movie classic \"Pink Flamingos,\" which earned him the title The King of Bad Taste, and his film \"Hairspray,\" which was adapted into the hit Broadway musical. He's also written several collections of humorous, personal essays. Here's the opening track of \"A John Waters Christmas.\" It's called \"Fat Daddy (Is Santa Claus)\". After we hear it, Waters will tell us who Fat Daddy was.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Rudolph the red-nosed reindeer had a very shiny nose. And if you ever saw it, you would even say it grows."}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 2, "text": "That's \"Fat Daddy,\" featuring Fat Daddy, from \"A John Waters Christmas.\" John Waters, welcome back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I'm Fat Daddy. I'm Santa Claus. Whoa. Whoa. Yeah. I'm Fat Daddy, the reindeer boss. I packed my sleigh with goodies and toys. You know I'm on my way to greet all the good little girlies and "}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 3, "text": "Who is Fat Daddy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks. Good to be here."}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 4, "text": "So what were the criteria that you used", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Fat Daddy was a DJ in Baltimore, one of the very most popular ones. In Baltimore in the early '60s, all cool white kids and all Black kids listened to Fat Daddy. It was really the first way that we he"}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 5, "text": "to select the records for \"A John Waters Christmas\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Fat Daddy was a DJ in Baltimore, one of the very most popular ones. In Baltimore in the early '60s, all cool white kids and all Black kids listened to Fat Daddy. It was really the first way that we he"}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I wanted to have an album that - what it would be like if you came over to my house at Christmas and I got all my old records out and played you my favorite Christmas carols. I've always - I wor"}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 7, "text": "Let's hear another song from \"A John Waters Christmas.\" This is a doo-wop track. It's called \"Christmas Time Is Coming (A Street Carol),\" performed by Stormy Weather. Why'd you choose this one?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Really possibly have success with them."}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 8, "text": "All right. Well let's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I chose it because it reminded me when - I first grew up in Lutherville, Md. And near where I lived was a segregated, little Black part of the community. And a lot of the people that lived there walke"}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I had a very white Christmas, in all meaning of that word."}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 10, "text": "OK. So this is \"Christmas Time Is Coming.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And this was a little bit different, and a little bit something that seemed more exciting to me."}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 11, "text": "That's a track from the new CD \"A John Waters Christmas.\" And John Waters is my guest. There's a line in that song that sounds like the same line from the Dreamlovers' song \"When We Get Married,\" we'll have a ball, dancing and all. I wonder who got it from who?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Christmastime is here. Christmastime is here. Christmastime is coming. There's snow falling on the street. The holidays are near - shoppers buying Christmas trees. We'll have a ball, dancing"}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 12, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know, you know? Sometimes these songs, when I had the records, they didn't even have the dates on them. Some were later than you thought and some were much earlier."}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's a song on here, \"Happy Birthday, Jesus,\" by Little Cindy that's one of my favorites. And I have no idea when that movie came out. Is Little Cindy alive? Does she know she's back out there in f"}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 14, "text": "Why don't we hear it? This is...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Because you listen to that song, and my imagination gets carried away. I think of, maybe, like, in the South somewhere in some pitiful, little recording studio. And Little Cindy may be the JonBenet"}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is Little Cindy, \"Happy Birthday, Jesus (A Child's Prayer)\".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 16, "text": "That's another track from the CD \"A John Waters Christmas.\" And John Waters is my guest. What were the records that you loved and hated most on the radio Christmastime when you were growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Happy birthday, Jesus. Momma said that you was near, and that had a birthday this time every year. She told me how you listened to every word we say, and that you hear us calling in the night or in th"}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 17, "text": "Rum pum pum pum.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I always really hated \"The Little Drummer Boy.\" I wish Ol' Dirty Bastard..."}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 18, "text": "We should hear \"Santa Claus Is A Black Man.\" And so this is something you grew up with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wish Ol' Dirty Bastard had recorded that before he died. I think it would have been a great Christmas album. I hated the corny ones you just heard over and over, like the Muzak versions. I like, som"}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 19, "text": "So yeah, you were already a filmmaker.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I heard it in the '70s on the radio and loved it."}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 20, "text": "\"This Is Santa Claus\" is a black man from the new CD \"A John Waters Christmas.\" And it's performed by Akim and the Teddy Vann Production Company.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I probably heard it on marijuana at that period of my life. And it was such a great song to me. It seemed liberating so much. And when you hear it today, when he says, Daddy, he had an afro like yours"}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 21, "text": "All right. Well, I guess we'll never really know unless somebody calls us and tells us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yup. And Akim is the kid. And I guess Teddy Vann's the dad, I would imagine."}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 22, "text": ". Well, here's the record.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Please, Little Cindy, if you're hearing this, call. What's the number?"}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 23, "text": "We're listening back to my 2004 interview with John Waters after the release of his album \"A John Waters Christmas.\" We'll hear more with him after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Santa Claus is a Black man. Santa Claus is a Black man."}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're celebrating Christmas Eve in our archive. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with filmmaker and author John Waters in 2004 after the release of his album \"A John Waters Christmas.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Santa Claus is a Black man. Santa Claus is a Black man."}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 25, "text": "Did you ever believe in Santa Claus?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Santa Claus is a Black man. Santa Claus is a Black man."}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 26, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I did believe in Santa Claus. There's a picture of me - my parents have a picture of myself sitting on Santa Claus's lap. Yes, I believed it. Sometimes, I'd get confused and wonder if Santa Claus"}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 27, "text": "Let's hear another track. And this is this is a real strange one. This is one of those, like, really strange singing voices. It's, I think...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Album that I had asked for. And it's such a weird picture because my parents went and bought me that album. And I guess that showed that even though they knew then I wasn't fitting in that they wer"}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 28, "text": "Yes, I think...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is a nasal one?"}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 29, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I love a nasal voice. Is it \"Sleigh Bells, Reindeer And Snow?\""}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 30, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I love her. I think she has - I love a nasal voice. You've got a cold - come over to my house and sing to me."}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 31, "text": "Oh, sure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it all started from Rosie and the Originals. Remember that song \"Angel Baby?\""}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 32, "text": "So here's \"Sleigh Bells, Reindeer And Snow,\" sung by Rita Faye Wilson, from \"A John Waters Christmas.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) It's just like heaven. And also Shirley of Shirley & Lee, who's maybe one of my favorite female vocalists in the history of rhythm and blues. So I think they started a school of nasal vo"}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 33, "text": "So, John Waters, what made this track worthy - either good enough or bad enough to be included on \"A John Waters Christmas?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) The ground is covered with white. Santa's coming tonight with dolls and toys for girls and boys and a merry ho, ho, ho. There'll be sleigh bells, reindeer and snow and a Merry Christmas. San"}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 34, "text": "Now, let's reminisce some more about John Waters' Christmas past. What's one of the best and worst gifts you've ever gotten on Christmas?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't think it's bad enough at all to me. I think it's one of the most unironic songs on it. I think it's catchy. I think she has a lovely voice, a touching voice. It's kind of a lonely Christ"}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 35, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, books are always the best present, you know, always, especially because I collect books. And I have a library. And I actually have a registry at my office. It's like a bridal registry where - be"}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 36, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So they call. And I have all prices, whatever you'd like. Here's the different selections. So I get really good presents at Christmas. I think my friend Dennis Dermody, who's a film critic for PAPER M"}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 37, "text": "OK, it's time for another track from \"A John Waters Christmas,\" your new CD. And I'm going to go with something very conventional here...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he found on eBay, buying them one at a time, all of them. I think that was the best Christmas present I ever got."}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 38, "text": "...Because most of the records we've been hearing - we don't really know the genealogy of the recording 'cause they're, like, found records. But this is Alvin and the Chipmunks, which you say figured prominently into your childhood.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 39, "text": "I think everybody who grew up in - I guess it was, like, the late '50s - grew up with Alvin and the Chipmunks. Why do you care about them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 40, "text": "You think they're sexy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think they're sexy, actually."}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 41, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I like a - yeah, a bad boy in a band. Actually, in real life, if people talk fast, I'm turned on. I'm always hoping that someone will be talking so fast if they go into chipmunk talk - and then I can "}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 42, "text": "The Chipmunks did a punk rock album?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have the hots for the Chipmunks, Terry. It's a hard thing to explain. I like a bad boy in a band. Wasn't that Alvin? There was also fake Chipmunks that tried to rip off their title called the Squirr"}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 43, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. \"Chipmunk Punk,\" it's called. I have it."}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 44, "text": "Oh, gosh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm hmm."}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 45, "text": "So this is Alvin and the Chipmunks singing \"Sleigh Ride\" from the new CD \"A John Waters Christmas.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I want them to do a rap album. Wouldn't the Chipmunks rapping be great?"}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 46, "text": "Thank you so much. Merry Christmas.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Just hear those sleigh bells jingling, ring ting tingling, too. Come on - it's lovely weather for a sleigh ride together with you. Outside, the snow is falling, and friends are calling, yoo-"}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 47, "text": ". And thanks for being with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Same to you. And Happy Holidays and Kwanzaa."}
{"id": "1066805815", "date": "2021-12-24", "guest": "Tiny Tim", "title": "Filmmaker John Waters puts his own spin on Christmas", "question_index": 48, "text": "My interview with John Waters was recorded in 2004 after the release of his album \"A John Waters Christmas.\" After we take a short break, we'll get back into our archives and hear some of the Christmas recordings the Beatles made for their fan club and listen back to a 1988 concert of Christmas songs by the late jazz singer Susannah McCorkle. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks, Terry, for having me."}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. During this final week of the year, we plan on keeping things upbeat. There's been enough bad news this year. We've selected a few interviews from 2021 that we think you'll enjoy.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 1, "text": "Today, we begin our holiday week series with Kieran Culkin, one of the stars of the HBO series \"Succession.\" We recorded the interview in early December just before \"Succession\" wrapped up its third season. \"Succession\" is a kind of comedy disguised as a drama about personal, corporate and political power and greed and the ability of right-wing media to manipulate politics. The story revolves around the Roy family that runs the conglomerate Waystar Royco, which owns a conservative cable news network, as well as a cruise line, a theme park and other businesses. The patriarch of the family, Logan Roy, played by Brian Cox, is old and has had some health crises that he nearly didn't recover from. His daughter and two of his sons have been competing to be the one who takes over from their father. Logan Roy has another son who wants to run in the Republican presidential primary. Each sibling will do anything to get power and undermine their other siblings' attempts to be the anointed one. Culkin's character, Roman Roy, is the most immature of the siblings. He's always joking and ironic, often unpredictable and use his ha-ha-I-didn't-really-mean-it attitude to gloss over his cruelty. In the season that recently ended, Caulkin's character, Roman, was trying to prove that he should take over the company, and he made some power plays to prove he could handle it. He made a big power play this season at the Future Freedom Summit, where the political powers and major donors basically decide who the next Republican presidential nominee will be. The Roys have a lot of influence because they can use their network to back or undermine a candidate. And if their candidate wins, the Roys expect favors in return. In this scene, Roman is talking to a would-be candidate from the far right, named Jeryd Mencken, who Roman thinks his family should support because this guy is already famous. He's good on camera. He's, quote, \"fun\" and can excite voters. It doesn't seem to matter to Roman that this guy is a white nationalist. Roman is trying to convince Mencken they can help each other. As they feel each other out, Mencken makes it plain what he thinks about immigrants coming into the country.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 2, "text": "Kieran Culkin made his movie debut at age 7 in the 1990 hit film \"Home Alone,\" which starred his brother, Macaulay Culkin. He continued acting in such films as \"Father Of The Bride\" and \"Cider House Rules.\" He starred in the 2002 film \"Igby Goes Down\" and co-starred with Michael Cera in \"Scott Pilgrim Vs. The World.\" They worked together again, along with Tavi Gevinson, in the Broadway show \"This Is Our Youth.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Roman Roy) Yeah. I've got some ideas for ATN, you know, sluice out the porridge and add some sriracha - poach some of those TikTok psychos, you know, e-girls with guns and Juul pods. You know, giv"}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 3, "text": "Kieran Culkin, welcome to FRESH AIR. It is such a pleasure to have you. I love the show. I love your performance in it. I love the writing. I love all the actors. Anyways, thank you for being on our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Roman Roy) Yeah. I've got some ideas for ATN, you know, sluice out the porridge and add some sriracha - poach some of those TikTok psychos, you know, e-girls with guns and Juul pods. You know, giv"}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 4, "text": "So that said, after all the praise, when the first episode was on, I didn't make it through the episode. I didn't like it. I thought, these characters are monsters. They were, like, the most privileged people in the world. They're monsters. Why would I spend my time watching this story about them? And then I finally figured out through hearing other people talk about it that it sounded great and I should give it another shot. And that's when I realized the show is really funny. I mean, you wouldn't know it just looking at the surface 'cause everybody is so in character and is so serious in the way they play their role. But the writing is just hilarious. Were you all worried about that, that there'd be a lot of people like me who wouldn't realize at first that it was really funny and would just kind of not care about these monsters?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's really nice."}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 5, "text": "Right, right. So, you know, in the clip that we just played, I'm thinking, has Roman just picked a candidate that would have been leading the insurrection?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had the same feeling even while we were shooting it. I looked at the pilot script, and I said, I know this is quality. As we were shooting it, I felt great about what we were doing. But I felt, who'"}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 6, "text": "Did you think about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Probably."}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. But it's funny. He just goes on instinct. I don't think he went into that summit with this guy fully on his radar. Mencken approaches him at a bar. And I thought, oh, this is a guy we can work "}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 8, "text": "Yeah. And your character has no beliefs, no real moral center", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "'Cause that's the only thing that can cause it. But otherwise, like, I don't really care what you do as long as you win and you and I - he - Roman has no care for what happens to the country or anythi"}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "'Cause that's the only thing that can cause it. But otherwise, like, I don't really care what you do as long as you win and you and I - he - Roman has no care for what happens to the country or anythi"}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 10, "text": "It's just about winning.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, probably not. I don't think he even has any sort of political agenda of any kind. I don't think he really cares."}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 11, "text": "Your character has done some very horrible things during the course of the series. What do you think is one of the most horrible?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's just winning, yeah."}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 12, "text": "Oh - oh, that's so horrible. Why don't you explain what he does?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it's hard for me to even say what's horrible. Like, I go back to the pilot sometimes and think about when he tells that kid that he'll give him a million dollars to hit a home run."}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is - let me just set this up. This is a family baseball game, and there's, like, a young kid who's maybe 10 or something standing by with his parents. And you invite him to go up to bat. And you tell him, if you get a home run, I'm going to give you a million dollars. You write out the check. And so, like, the kid is, like, so nervous, and his parents are just kind of biting their lips. And just, like, toying with him. And, of course, he doesn't make the home run, and you tear up the check. And it's just a horrible thing to do to a kid.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He goes up to that kid and tells him if he hits a home run, he will sign a check for a million dollars."}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The kid comes close, too. But I think in - to look at it from Roman's perspective, like, that's why a lot of people have told me that it was horrible. I read it on page and thought it was horrible. An"}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 15, "text": "Right, right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So he tore up the check in front of him."}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He doesn't get the million dollars."}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 17, "text": "And it also shows Roman's idea of money. Like, it's meaningless. You know, he wants as much of it as he can get, but he can also act like it's a piece of paper that you can write or tear up. And it just doesn't really matter.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So is it that horrible? He actually provided this kid with a tremendous opportunity and gave the family memories. I'm not saying this is my - Kieran's perspective, but that's how Roman, you know, feel"}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 18, "text": "So fans of the show are usually very interested in the relationship that you've developed with Gerri, the general counsel of the family conglomerate, played by J. Smith-Cameron, who - you've developed this relationship with her in the show where she's kind of the verbal dominatrix, and you get off by hearing her be abusive to you, calling you things like a slime puppy and more abusive than that. So, you know, I've read a little bit about how that got started, but tell us from your point of view how that relationship got started. I should mention she's decades older than you are.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, there's another million coming if you have to spend this one, so it's fine."}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 19, "text": "And also, like, she is the general counsel. Like, she - like, you have no real beliefs. You have no boundaries. She's all about knowing what the law is, knowing what the boundaries are so she can protect the company. So you're not exactly made for each other.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Was that worth mentioning?"}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 20, "text": ". So all the actors on \"Succession\" are so great. Do you feel like you've learned things about acting from working with such a fantastic ensemble, including Brian Cox, who's the patriarch of the family?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, perhaps not. Maybe that's the appeal. I'm not too certain. She's also been around for over 30 years with the company, and I believe she mentions that her husband was Shiv's godfather. So she's b"}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 21, "text": "Do any of them stay in character even when the cameras aren't rolling?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Brian is fantastic. Of course, you learn from working with great actors. Yeah, I mean, it just sort of rubs off on you. I feel like the whole point is to always sort of be evolving and learning. Like,"}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sort of hard to say because, sometimes, you know, there's elements of the real stuff that's already in the character. So it gets blurred a bit. Like, Brian has Logan-y (ph) moments, but for the most p"}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 23, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like, is he just..."}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 24, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Kieran Culkin, who plays Roman Roy on the HBO series \"Succession.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Somebody get him a sandwich. He's about to snap at you, you know?"}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 25, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Kieran Culkin. He's one of the stars of the HBO series \"Succession.\" He plays Roman Roy, one of the siblings competing to succeed their father in running the conglomerate. Kieran Culkin got his start in film when he was 7 in \"Home Alone,\" which starred his brother Macaulay Culkin. What was it like finding Roman's cadences? Because your character has a certain way of speaking that's really, like, so jokey and so funny and ironic. Even when he's acting monstrous, he, like, disguises it with this, like, joke, and he - jokey, tossed-off irony. But it's all in, like, the music of how he says it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Somebody get him a sandwich. He's about to snap at you, you know?"}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 26, "text": "You seem to have had this, like, approach-avoidance attitude toward acting. There's been periods where you've acted and periods where you've decided to drop out. Has the show and its success and your fabulous performance and role in it made you feel any differently about acting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I don't really know. I'll say something that isn't about me. When I was reading the scripts from the pilot to Episodes 2 and 3, I noticed that the writers had started picking up on people's "}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 27, "text": "Yeah, yeah. That's - yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "really making a decision for your future. It doesn't really - you're just a kid, you know? So I felt like I'd just been doing it since I was a kid and never actually made the choice to do it. And I th"}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 28, "text": "That...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know?"}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 29, "text": "What did you hate about the idea of your face being on a poster?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It just took that long. And now I feel comfortable with it now. It's like - before, I think I've always had this sort of - I had a relationship with it. It was a love-hate. I loved doing the work. I h"}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 30, "text": "Some people just dream about that happening. That's their ambition. I want to be on a bus.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Are you kidding? Oh, there's my head on the bus going by. You know, I don't know. There's just something about that that's just really..."}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 31, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To me, that's a nightmare. That's like, you know - you know what I want to hear? I want to hear the sound of my own voice. You know when you, like, you hear a recording of yourself on, like, a voicema"}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 32, "text": "Oh, that's great. Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Kieran Culkin, one of the stars of the HBO series \"Succession.\" We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Didn't care, didn't care. It was like I showed her a picture of myself on the phone, and I was like, OK, now I kind of like that 'cause now any time she saw it on a bus or, like, at a, you know, anyth"}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 33, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Kieran Culkin, one of the stars of the HBO series \"Succession.\" He plays Roman Roy, one of the siblings vying to take over the family-run conglomerate from their father. Culkin got his start in movies when he was 7 in the movie \"Home Alone,\" which starred his brother, Macaulay Culkin. Kieran Culkin starred in the 2002 film \"Igby Goes Down\" and later starred with Michael Cera in the film \"Scott Pilgrim Vs. The World.\" Cera and Culkin worked together again, along with Tavi Gevinson, in the Broadway show \"This Is Our Youth.\" So let's talk about your early years when you were acting, and it wasn't your choice. That choice was basically made for you, I think, by your father. So when your brother, Macaulay Culkin, starred in \"Home Alone\" in 1990, you played his cousin. So what's the backstory to that? How did Macaulay end up starring and you end up playing a role in it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Didn't care, didn't care. It was like I showed her a picture of myself on the phone, and I was like, OK, now I kind of like that 'cause now any time she saw it on a bus or, like, at a, you know, anyth"}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 34, "text": "What was your experience like? Did your father say, OK, you're going to be in this movie? You're going to play a part?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, we got started all at the same time, and that was mostly my father's idea from what I understand. And he pushed all of us - there are seven of us Culkins altogether, but some just did not wa"}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 35, "text": "You didn't know your brother was the star of it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't really know what the movie was about. I didn't understand. You know, I think when I auditioned for it, I was 6, and my first job - I might have been 7. My first job was a commercial, which I "}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 36, "text": "Wow. Yeah, well, you were 6 or 7. What was the commercial that you did before that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 37, "text": "Oh, that's so interesting. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I - you know, I know it had something to do about learning disabilities like dyslexia or something, some sort of awareness. But I can't remember specifically what it was. But the one thing I do rememb"}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 38, "text": "You don't have to insult me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like, he was trying to get me to, like, have a reaction or something. And I was like, no, no, I get it. Look sad. You don't have to do that."}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 39, "text": ". So did your father want the kids to act because he was an actor, and he wanted you to to succeed in the profession he loved? Or was it more about money? Do you have any idea?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm not a method actor. I'm 6. You know, it's fine."}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 40, "text": "You know, acting is such a tough profession, in part because you're getting judged all the time. You're getting praised or rejected. You're getting cast or, you know, losing the part. What was it like for you to know you were being judged as a child on, you know, things that you couldn't really understand? Like, you couldn't really understand acting technique yet.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. I'd have to ask him, but I don't speak to him, so that would be a tough call to make. Let me see. I would guess the former. I would say that, you know, he had been pursuing acting since "}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 41, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Kieran Culkin, who plays Roman Roy on the HBO series \"Succession.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Yeah, maybe it's just because I've been doing it for a long time. I never looked at it as losing a part or - it's not a competition. I'm just not right for it, or I am. If the job doesn't happen, gr"}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 42, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Kieran Culkin. He's one of the stars of the HBO series \"Succession.\" He plays Roman Roy, one of the siblings competing to succeed their father in running the conglomerate. Kieran Culkin got his start in film when he was 7 in \"Home Alone,\" which starred his brother Macaulay Culkin. What was it like seeing child stardom - watching your brother become, like, one of the most famous kids in America? Because \"Home Alone\" was such a big hit, and the whole thing with him, like, holding the sides of his face with his hands and going, ah (ph) - I mean, that was - like, that was all over. There was no such thing as viral yet because there wasn't really internet yet, but - or not much anyway. So - but if the - like, it was the equivalent of going viral.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Yeah, maybe it's just because I've been doing it for a long time. I never looked at it as losing a part or - it's not a competition. I'm just not right for it, or I am. If the job doesn't happen, gr"}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 43, "text": "Your brother has said that your father was emotionally and, I think, physically abusive toward him and that at some point, he basically, like, legally emancipated himself from your parents. He removed their names from his trust and appointed an independent executor to oversee his financial holdings. Was that your experience of the family, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- I got to sort of experience it secondhand as a child. So to me, I always have known this is not something one would want to pursue. It's not a very nice thing, fame."}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 44, "text": "That's such a strange thing to think about that the kid, the child during the divorce, is the one with the millions of dollars. That's so topsy-turvy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. We had a - our experiences were a little bit different. I mean, I didn't experience much, like, physical or emotional abuse personally, but I'm sure Mac did. And I think the - it's so funny. It's "}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 45, "text": "You talked about how difficult fame is, how unpleasant fame can be. Were you confused with your brother when you were young because you both looked similar? You're not far from age. So were you ever confused with him? And if so, what was that like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know. But people look at it as, like, the parents were fighting over the money. They weren't. They were fighting over custody. It's just that one of the kids had a lot of money. That's all it was. I"}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 46, "text": "On the street - like, strangers on the street, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, you mean, like, people in the street."}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 47, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There were a few. There was one time this woman - I was about 9 or 10 years old. I got out of a car. I think I was with my dad at an airport. And she ran up to me - like, I had barely took a step out."}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 48, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I remember saying, no, nobody is."}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 49, "text": "That is really a violation of privacy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then she wanted to take a picture with me. And, like, I was trying to tell her that I wasn't, but she still took a picture anyway. It was very confusing. So there were things like that. But, you k"}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 50, "text": "Yeah. That's like being stalked by somebody who could sell your address to whoever he wanted to.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is. And there were things like that. There was one, I remember, where my - Mac and I and my brother Shane, who's the oldest, we took a cab home. And the cab driver recognized Mac. And this was righ"}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 51, "text": "Well, yeah. And your family was in the tabloids when you were a child. And that custody battle really, you know, I'm sure got played up big in the tabloids. I mean, that's hard for anybody to be in the tabloids except for the people who really want to be in it. And some do. But did you feel the effect of that? Did you understand what the tabloids were?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. There's stuff like that. I mean, you said stalk. It's like, you know, paparazzi - that's basically what that is. And..."}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 52, "text": "Once you were in movies, which was kind of always", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I got it. At that point, I wasn't too young. I think the custody thing - battle - I was between the ages of, like, 12 and 15 when that happened 'cause it took a couple of years. So - but"}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 53, "text": ", did you watch movies differently? Did you watch movies thinking, how do they do what they do? Where is the lighting? Where's the camera - the kind of thing that you think about when you're - that I assume you think about when you're actually in a movie?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I got it. At that point, I wasn't too young. I think the custody thing - battle - I was between the ages of, like, 12 and 15 when that happened 'cause it took a couple of years. So - but"}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 54, "text": "Has it always felt that way since childhood?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think a lot of times when I watch a movie, it's like work. So I tend to not really watch thing - like, I tend to not really watch, like, films, if that makes sense, because it - like, I do. Bu"}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 55, "text": "How's your memory in terms of memorizing lines?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then I'll watch TV shows that are really, like, engaging and fun but are very different from what I've ever done before. Or like, sitcoms - I've never done sitcoms, so I watch a lot of those."}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 56, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was one time this past season - I also don't like running lines, which I know a lot of actors like to do. I don't want to run lines with people. I actually don't like saying the words. I don't s"}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 57, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Kieran Culkin, who plays Roman Roy on the HBO series \"Succession.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 58, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Kieran Culkin. He's one of the stars of the HBO series \"Succession.\" He plays Roman Roy, one of the siblings competing to succeed their father in running the family-run conglomerate. Kieran Culkin got his start in film when he was 6 or 7 in \"Home Alone,\" which starred his brother Macaulay Culkin. You're the father of two, and your second child was born over the summer. Your mother had seven children, so she must have been pregnant a lot of the time and really, really busy 'cause I think she also worked. What impressions did it give you of parenthood to see her raising seven children?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 59, "text": "Did watching her do that affect your desire to be or not to be a father?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "really think about this one because, yeah, my mom - I was the fourth. So you know, I do remember her being pregnant at least the last two times and being very busy. And the apartment we lived in was v"}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 60, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I don't know. I'm not sure. It was not something that either - my wife and I ever pursued. We sort of thought, you know, if it happens, it happens. But if it doesn't, you know, hey, that'll be gre"}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 61, "text": "Well, I love you on the show. I love the show. Thank you so much for being on our show. I really appreciate it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When we found out that we were pregnant, it - like, we cried, and it was like, this is the greatest thing. Like, before I - like, it was just the information. Like, oh, my God. I had no idea how much "}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 62, "text": "Kieran Culkin stars in the HBO series \"Succession.\" We recorded our interview in early December, shortly before \"Succession's\" season three finale. We're ending this year with a holiday week series featuring a few interviews from the year that we think you'll enjoy. Tomorrow, we'll hear the interview I recorded in January with Fran Lebowitz. She's turned talking into her art form and her profession. In a way, she's like a brilliant comic who's very not funny but doesn't tell jokes. Her style comes from being a writer who can no longer write. This year, she was in the Netflix documentary series \"Pretend It's A City,\" featuring her in a series of interviews conducted by her friend Martin Scorsese. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. It was such a pleasure being here. Thank you."}
{"id": "1068249368", "date": "2021-12-27", "guest": "Justin Kirk", "title": "Kieran Culkin is having fun with 'Succession' \u2014 and he hopes you are too", "question_index": 63, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Seth Kelley and Kayla Lattimore. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. It was such a pleasure being here. Thank you."}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. During this final year of the year, we've selected a few interviews from 2021 that we think you'll enjoy. Today, my interview with writer and humorist Fran Lebowitz. We recorded this interview last January, when the Netflix series \"Pretend It's A City\" was released. It's a series of interviews with her, mostly conducted by her friend Martin Scorsese, who also directed the series. In 2010, he directed an HBO documentary about Lebowitz that also featured her in conversation called \"Public Speaking.\" Fran Lebowitz, has turned talking into her art form and her profession. In a way, she's like a brilliant comic who's very funny but doesn't tell jokes. Her style comes from being a writer who can no longer write. After writing columns for Andy Warhol's magazine Interview and two very popular collections of humorous essays, \"Metropolitan Life\" in 1978 and \"Social Studies\" in 1981, she developed a now famous case of writer's block. That's a loss for readers, but a win for people who get to see her onstage in conversation. In \"Pretend It's A City,\" Lebowitz talks about many subjects, including growing up in New Jersey with parents who raised her to be a wife and mother, what's happened to New York City since she moved there after dropping out of high school in the late 1960s, working as a New York City cab driver when she was in her 20s, writing for Andy Warhol's Interview magazine in her 20s, why she owns over 10,000 books, and why she still doesn't own a cellphone or computer. As the series' editor David Tedeschi put it, the Netflix series \"Pretend It's A City\" is about what Fran has to say. But it's also about how she says it. It's about her timing, her cadence, her pace.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Fran Lebowitz, welcome back to FRESH AIR. It is such a pleasure to talk with you again.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 2, "text": "The series was shot before COVID, so you don't get to talk about the pandemic in the series. But I'm interested in hearing - how's your fear level about contagion? And how vigilant have you been about not getting COVID?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. Nice to speak to you."}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I think that's the proof that I've been vigilant. I've been, like, really careful. But I kind of was astonished that I didn't get it before we knew about it because up until, like, March - I think "}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Are you predisposed to worrying about health and infection?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I was aware that I would be negative. I am still negative."}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I've always been very - I don't know what the word is - very careful about touching things. For instance, I can and have thousands of times - I've never touched a single thing in the New Yor"}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I'd leave it there. I'd say, well, you know, it's just the Hope Diamond. But I have seen - I mean, I, of course, seen people pick things up from this floor. I, at least once, was sitting across fro"}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 7, "text": "So, you know, the shortages of, like, toilet paper and paper towels early on and the continuing shortage of disinfecting wipes, the food lines, the unemployment, the people losing their homes because of the pandemic - it really has gotten me thinking, among other things, about my parents who came of age during the Depression and what they went through and how that imprinted itself on them. And I feel like there's things about them now that I understand that I didn't before, why they always thought that something like that could happen any second, do you know what I mean? Your parents are probably the same generation as my parents. Have you been thinking about that, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Germ and virus on the planet Earth."}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 8, "text": "No. No, they're not. So I can't talk to them about this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Actually, my parents are not alive, are yours?"}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Yes", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. My parents were - grew up during the Depression. My father's family was extremely poor. And so I actually have - I have many habits of someone who grew up during the Depression, because someone on"}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. My parents were - grew up during the Depression. My father's family was extremely poor. And so I actually have - I have many habits of someone who grew up during the Depression, because someone on"}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I said, because my father made us do that..."}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 12, "text": "You've always lived alone by choice. How is living alone feeling during the pandemic when everybody's feeling kind of isolated?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know? And so I retained these habits. But my parents didn't grow up during a plague, so I don't have that to fall back on."}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 13, "text": "Do you ever get lonely?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's still, you know, seems to me to be by far the best choice. I mean, I cannot understand how people who do not live alone have stood this last 10 months, you know, because the only upside of,"}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 14, "text": "This new series is the second time Scorsese has documented you as a public speaker. You're friends. How did you become friends with Scorsese?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, truthfully, I really never get lonely. I mean, I certainly can say that there are specific people that I've missed in my life numerous times, you know, some very grievously. But a kind of ab"}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 15, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I don't - neither Marty nor I really know. I always say that, you know, I must have met Marty at a party because I can't think where else I would have met him, and also because I spent, you "}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I feel like I did notice at some point that whenever I saw Marty at a party, I would spend most of the evening talking to Marty. We both have such a strong connection to New York that, in fa"}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 17, "text": "If you're just joining us, we're listening to the interview I recorded last January with Fran Lebowitz. She's featured in conversation in the Netflix series \"Pretend It's A City.\" It's directed by Martin Scorsese, who interviews her in the series. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Remember, we have to go to Queens, Fran. Queens. You know where this place is? And even though, of course, Marty has made movies all over the world, you know, he doesn't take to that kindly, having to"}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Fran Lebowitz. She first became famous as a writer, but now she's famous as a public speaker. In the new Netflix series \"Pretend It's A City,\" she's interviewed by her friend Martin Scorsese, who directed the series. You strike me as someone who is resolutely yourself. You know who you are. You don't worry about changing yourself to be more popular or to please other people. You've been described as an iconoclast. Are you always comfortable within yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Remember, we have to go to Queens, Fran. Queens. You know where this place is? And even though, of course, Marty has made movies all over the world, you know, he doesn't take to that kindly, having to"}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 19, "text": "You grew up in a suburb in New Jersey, and you say that you were raised by your parents to be a wife. That did not work out that way", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I'm always surprised that people - adults - you know, look to other people even for things like haircuts, you know. I mean, I just never thought about it. I don't know why. I mean, but that was t"}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 20, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I'm always surprised that people - adults - you know, look to other people even for things like haircuts, you know. I mean, I just never thought about it. I don't know why. I mean, but that was t"}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Yeah, yeah, yeah. When you looked around you and you looked at the adults in your neighborhood when you were growing up, and particularly when you looked at the women, what did you see?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It did not work out for them. It worked out great for me."}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Whoa. He wasn't joking?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, truthfully, I just felt in general - you know, I was born in 1950, so - I have to stress the end of 1950, so I'm younger than you think. So this was kind of the heyday of this kind of "}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 23, "text": "What did you want to do that your parents said you couldn't do because you were a girl?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not at all. And I remember that, and this is, you know, something like 60 years ago. But I don't remember feeling surprised to hear him say that or angry that he said that. That was just the way t"}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I don't even remember. I just remember hearing it all the time, you know."}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 25, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it wasn't like a lot of girls - like, for instance, you know, a lot of girls - women my age, you know, remember not being able to play sports and stuff like that. Believe me; that was the upsi"}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 26, "text": "So you were kind of different as a kid. When you were growing up, you wanted to go your own way. You had your own thoughts. You've always been yourself. And yourself is often oppositional", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, my mother had dozens of aprons. So that - we had to make an apron, which was a garment we'd be wearing in the kitchen when we cooked for our husbands. And it's a pretty simple sewing job. Bu"}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 27, "text": "and unique. Did that bother you ever as a kid, that you didn't - I mean, you're such a paradox. Like, on the one hand, you always go your own way. You ended up being president of one of your high school classes. That struck me as so odd because I can't imagine you being interested in student government, even though I know you follow politics now. But that's different than student government. And so like, you're the president of your - of one of your classes. And then you're expelled from the school", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, my mother had dozens of aprons. So that - we had to make an apron, which was a garment we'd be wearing in the kitchen when we cooked for our husbands. And it's a pretty simple sewing job. Bu"}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 28, "text": ". It's like one paradox after another. Explain.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, my mother had dozens of aprons. So that - we had to make an apron, which was a garment we'd be wearing in the kitchen when we cooked for our husbands. And it's a pretty simple sewing job. Bu"}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 29, "text": "Got it. Yes. That's a good explanation", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, the difference is that the kids elected me president, and the headmaster threw me out."}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 30, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, the difference is that the kids elected me president, and the headmaster threw me out."}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 31, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, this class I was the president of had, literally, 12 people in it, OK. So I still - I believe I could be the president of the United States if there are only 12 people in the United States. So"}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 32, "text": "As in wipe that look off of your Face?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So..."}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 33, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So..."}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 34, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded last January with Fran Lebowitz. She's featured in conversation in this year's Netflix series, \"Pretend It's A City.\" It's directed by Martin Scorsese, who interviews her in the series. After we take a short break, we'll hear more of the interview. And podcast critic Nick Quah will tell us about three of his favorite podcasts of the year. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, wipe that look off your face. So I think - and, by the way, I was unaware of this look on my face. So that, you know, it's - like, people very often say to me, you never smile in photographs. Why"}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 35, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross, back with more of the interview I recorded last January with Fran Lebowitz. She became famous in the late '70s and early '80s for her collections of humorous essays, \"Metropolitan Life\" and \"Social Studies.\" After developing a bad case of writer's block, which has lasted for decades with brief interruptions of writing, she became famous as a public speaker with interesting, funny opinions and observations on nearly everything. You can see her in action in the new Netflix series \"Pretend It's A City.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, wipe that look off your face. So I think - and, by the way, I was unaware of this look on my face. So that, you know, it's - like, people very often say to me, you never smile in photographs. Why"}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 36, "text": "When you came to New York when you were in your teens, you wanted to be a writer. And you became a writer. But before you had, like, a best-selling book, you had jobs like driving a taxi and cleaning houses - well, cleaning apartments, maybe", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, wipe that look off your face. So I think - and, by the way, I was unaware of this look on my face. So that, you know, it's - like, people very often say to me, you never smile in photographs. Why"}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 37, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, wipe that look off your face. So I think - and, by the way, I was unaware of this look on my face. So that, you know, it's - like, people very often say to me, you never smile in photographs. Why"}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 38, "text": "Yeah. I want to hear about driving a taxi, 'cause you were how old - you were still in your teens?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, apartments."}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 39, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would say - you know, I don't remember exactly. I could have been 20, 21, you know."}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 40, "text": "And this is in the '70s, at a time when there were very few women driving a taxi. And there still are a few women driving a taxi, but it was fewer then. And you were very young. Were you ever, like, in physical danger?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I..."}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 41, "text": "Is it true that you also wrote porn after you came to Manhattan?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, New York was a very dangerous period then, you know. They say it was, like, 1970 or '71 - I don't remember - you know, it was dangerous to walk down the street. There was a tremendous am"}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 42, "text": "I can imagine. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is true. I'm talking about books, all right. You know, someone told me about this. And someone told me they were doing this. And I don't remember any more, but if you wrote a book for this company,"}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 43, "text": "To turn on men.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One of the things you couldn't have was any kind of sex between men, but you had to have sex between women. These books were..."}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 44, "text": "Right. Yes. Right", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 45, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 46, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "These books were meant for straight men, OK. This whole company, I think, was meant for this. And so I just remember sitting around. Most of the people I was with were stoned. One person I remember ty"}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 47, "text": "Oh, that's - talk about revenge", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That is in fact, to this day..."}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 48, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That is in fact, to this day..."}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 49, "text": "The scenes with sex between women must have been very authentic when you were writing them", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...One of my greatest accomplishments."}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 50, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...One of my greatest accomplishments."}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 51, "text": "Right. Not for - not for lesbians. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, these - you know, these books were meant, you know, purely for straight men. So, you know..."}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 52, "text": ". If you're just joining us, we're listening to the interview I recorded last January with Fran Lebowitz. She's featured in conversation in the Netflix series \"Pretend It's A City.\" It's directed by Martin Scorsese, who interviews her in the series. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Not for women. Not for anyone else. But, you know, almost all cultural production at the time was also produced for straight men."}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 53, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Fran Lebowitz. She first became famous as a writer, but now she's famous as a public speaker. In the Netflix series \"Pretend It's A City,\" she's interviewed by her friend, Martin Scorsese, who also directed the series. You worked at Andy Warhol's magazine, Interview. I think you got that job when you were 21. Did Andy Warhol, like, interview you for the position?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Not for women. Not for anyone else. But, you know, almost all cultural production at the time was also produced for straight men."}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 54, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. So the first time I went to interview - and I went up in the elevator. And when the elevator door opened, there was a metal door that was closed that had a piece of paper taped to it that said, kn"}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 55, "text": "Oh, God.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And Andy opened the door."}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 56, "text": "That's great. When you worked at Andy Warhol's magazine Interview, it sounds like you had some - like, a lot of disagreements with Andy Warhol. What would you disagree about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So in case you were thinking, Andy Warhol, he was a genius - all right, so first of all, I was shocked that he opened the door. I don't know. For some reason, I never actually expected him to be there"}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 57, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't have a lot of disagreements with Andy because I didn't work at the Factory. In other words, I didn't go there, you know, every day. There were people who worked there, you know. I mean..."}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 58, "text": "Why didn't you like him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...The Interview was on one side. And the Factory, as we called it, was on the other side. But there were people who went to work there every day. At Interview, there were the editor. There was a rece"}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 59, "text": "So are you referring to, like, drug overdoses and suicides?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I noticed right away how many people around him died. I know you're not supposed to say this, you know. But, I mean, kids, I mean, you know. There was a tremendous amount of, you know, encourage"}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 60, "text": "Yeah. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 61, "text": "Being a part, even if it was on the periphery, of Andy Warhol's Factory, you probably knew a lot of people who were then known as drag queens. Do you wonder what life would have been like for them if they were alive now, with the LGBTQ movement and with people being very out as being trans?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So - and this was way before AIDs. So this was, yeah, mostly drugs."}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 62, "text": "Like, without being arrested.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's impossible. You know, I mean, I was, I would say, friends with Candy and Jackie, less Holly. You can't take someone out of their era. It's impossible. So, you know, if Candy was alive n"}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 63, "text": "You know so many people, including a lot of famous people. Did you know Donald Trump in the '80s through nightlife?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, without being arrested."}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 64, "text": "Different circles?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, you would..."}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 65, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, you would..."}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 66, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I would say. I mean, of course, I heard of him, you know. I mean, Donald Trump was a joke in New York. I mean, Donald Trump was not even taken seriously as a real estate developer by real estate"}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 67, "text": "You were close friends with Toni Morrison. And you've written about that friendship and how much you miss her now. And I think you met at a reading that you were both doing. A lot of people think that you were an odd combination because her writing sometimes had this kind of magic realism, and you're this kind of cynical, skeptical, you know, opinionated humorist. But obviously, you had a lot of things in common. What were some of the things that you shared?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I didn't know him."}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 68, "text": "So, finally, I know that you've had insomnia for years. What do you do when you can't sleep?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Toni loved parties, OK. So if you didn't know Toni personally, you would not know how much fun Toni was. Toni was really fun. Most of the time I spent with Toni, which was zillions of hours - I "}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 69, "text": "Do you get up and read a book in the middle of the night?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I've never slept. So that - apparently, my mother used to say that she never read so much as when I was an infant because I was screaming all night, crying all night. And even when I was a little "}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 70, "text": "You don't have a cellphone. You don't have a computer. Do you think you will never have one?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I used to. And they always say, don't walk around. You know, play music. But that's for - you know, all those, like, tips for insomnia are if something is temporary, like, you know, you have insomnia "}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 71, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. I mean, I'm always worried that they might stop making regular phones or stop, like, fixing them or whatever. By regular phones, I mean landline."}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 72, "text": "Fran Lebowitz, it's been a pleasure to talk with you again. Thank you so much for coming back on our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I worry about things like, are they going to stop making paper? So I - like, I hoard paper. Are they going to stop making pencils or pens? You know, because sometimes at a party, like, I'll wa"}
{"id": "1068261907", "date": "2021-12-28", "guest": "Fran Lebowitz", "title": "Fran Lebowitz is your NYC tour guide in 'Pretend It's a City'", "question_index": 73, "text": "My interview with Fran Lebowitz was recorded in January 2021 after the release of the Netflix series \"Pretend It's A City,\" featuring her interviewed by Martin Scorsese and Spike Lee. Scorsese also directed the series. After we take a short break, podcast critic Nick Quah will tell us about three of his favorite podcasts of the year. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having me, Terry."}
{"id": "1068753263", "date": "2021-12-29", "guest": "Desmond Tutu", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Archbishop Desmond Tutu", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today, we put our holiday week series on pause to remember Desmond Tutu. He died Sunday at age 90 for two decades. He was one of South Africa's most outspoken opponents of apartheid and then helped lead the country in the transition from apartheid to democracy. We're going to feature interviews with him from both of those periods. Tutu became the first Black secretary general of the South African Council of Churches in 1978, representing about 13 million South African Christians, about 80% of whom were Black. He organized the council into a vehicle for anti-apartheid protest, which led to a government investigation of the council. In 1988, the council's headquarters were destroyed by a bomb planted by the government. Tutu also took on the work of traveling around the world, speaking out against apartheid and advocating for sanctions. He won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1984 and soon after became the first Black bishop of Johannesburg. In '86, he became archbishop of Cape Town. After apartheid ended and Nelson Mandela was sworn in as president, Mandela asked Tutu to chair South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission to look into the crimes of apartheid. Let's start with the interview I recorded with Tutu in 1984, shortly before he was chosen as the recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1068753263", "date": "2021-12-29", "guest": "Desmond Tutu", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Archbishop Desmond Tutu", "question_index": 1, "text": "Bishop Tutu, I want to welcome you to FRESH AIR. It's an honor to have you here.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1068753263", "date": "2021-12-29", "guest": "Desmond Tutu", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Archbishop Desmond Tutu", "question_index": 2, "text": "I know that you spent several years studying in Europe. When you first got out of South Africa, did you start to see the apartheid system differently than when you had been living within it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much."}
{"id": "1068753263", "date": "2021-12-29", "guest": "Desmond Tutu", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Archbishop Desmond Tutu", "question_index": 3, "text": "You were a teacher before you entered the clergy. Why did you decide to become a minister after being a teacher for several years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was an incredible experience of liberation. One doesn't quite know just how much you get conditioned living in an oppressive system. And it was just marvelous being treated as a human being for the"}
{"id": "1068753263", "date": "2021-12-29", "guest": "Desmond Tutu", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Archbishop Desmond Tutu", "question_index": 4, "text": "One of the leaders of the American civil rights movement, Reverend Martin Luther King...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The South African government introduced in 19 - in the 1950s something called Bantu education. Now, in South Africa, there are four different educational systems - one for whites, one for those who ar"}
{"id": "1068753263", "date": "2021-12-29", "guest": "Desmond Tutu", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Archbishop Desmond Tutu", "question_index": 5, "text": "...Turned to civil disobedience...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes."}
{"id": "1068753263", "date": "2021-12-29", "guest": "Desmond Tutu", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Archbishop Desmond Tutu", "question_index": 6, "text": "...As a technique...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1068753263", "date": "2021-12-29", "guest": "Desmond Tutu", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Archbishop Desmond Tutu", "question_index": 7, "text": "...To try to change segregation laws in this country. Do you think that those techniques of civil disobedience with, you know, a strong footing in the Bible...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1068753263", "date": "2021-12-29", "guest": "Desmond Tutu", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Archbishop Desmond Tutu", "question_index": 8, "text": "...Could be effective in South Africa?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1068753263", "date": "2021-12-29", "guest": "Desmond Tutu", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Archbishop Desmond Tutu", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well, if you don't have that minimum moral level in which civil disobedience could become effective and if the constitution supports the apartheid system and you can't really rely on that, what alternatives do you have for change?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let me say, first of all, that we are - many of us very greatly influenced and inspired by the work of Martin Luther King Jr. and those who were involved in the civil rights movement in this country, "}
{"id": "1068753263", "date": "2021-12-29", "guest": "Desmond Tutu", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Archbishop Desmond Tutu", "question_index": 10, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded with Desmond Tutu in 1984. He died Sunday. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we will continue to work for change by reasonably peaceful means, and it is here that we seek the assistance of the international community. We try to enlist their help. We ask them to exert pre"}
{"id": "1068753263", "date": "2021-12-29", "guest": "Desmond Tutu", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Archbishop Desmond Tutu", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're remembering Desmond Tutu. He died Sunday at age 90. He was one of the leaders of South Africa's anti-apartheid movement and then helped lead the country in the transition to democracy. When we spoke in 1984, he was the secretary general of the South African Council of Churches, the first Black person to hold that position.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we will continue to work for change by reasonably peaceful means, and it is here that we seek the assistance of the international community. We try to enlist their help. We ask them to exert pre"}
{"id": "1068753263", "date": "2021-12-29", "guest": "Desmond Tutu", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Archbishop Desmond Tutu", "question_index": 12, "text": "A lot of people think that the only way change is going to happen is through violence because the government is so set in its ways, amoral and hasn't really...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we will continue to work for change by reasonably peaceful means, and it is here that we seek the assistance of the international community. We try to enlist their help. We ask them to exert pre"}
{"id": "1068753263", "date": "2021-12-29", "guest": "Desmond Tutu", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Archbishop Desmond Tutu", "question_index": 13, "text": "...Changed in the past. But you don't support violent change. Why are you opposed to the use of violence to overturn the apartheid system?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1068753263", "date": "2021-12-29", "guest": "Desmond Tutu", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Archbishop Desmond Tutu", "question_index": 14, "text": "Do you think that there are a lot of people arming themselves now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Although I am not a pacifist, I am very deeply committed to peace because my own fear is that when you unleash violence, it is very difficult to control. And as a church organization, we can never esp"}
{"id": "1068753263", "date": "2021-12-29", "guest": "Desmond Tutu", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Archbishop Desmond Tutu", "question_index": 15, "text": "Let's go back to the boy who came up to you after a speech that you'd given. How did you respond to him when he said, give me some evidence that what you've done has effected any change, and I'll show you what we've accomplished with some stones? What did you say?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can say that there are very many young people who think that those of us who are still speaking about reasonably peaceful change are dirty, I mean, that we must be crazy and need to have our heads r"}
{"id": "1068753263", "date": "2021-12-29", "guest": "Desmond Tutu", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Archbishop Desmond Tutu", "question_index": 16, "text": "What do you think other countries can do in support of dismantling the apartheid system?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did not have any evidence to show him. And he could say that they had stopped Africans being used as a compulsory medium of instruction. He could point to new school buildings that the government ha"}
{"id": "1068753263", "date": "2021-12-29", "guest": "Desmond Tutu", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Archbishop Desmond Tutu", "question_index": 17, "text": "You've made it really clear that you think that the system has to and will change soon. And it will either change peacefully, or it would change through violence.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I believe that they must make it quite clear that there is no way in which the perpetrators of apartheid will ever become respectable, and that apartheid will ever become acceptable. I think, I mean, "}
{"id": "1068753263", "date": "2021-12-29", "guest": "Desmond Tutu", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Archbishop Desmond Tutu", "question_index": 18, "text": "What do you think the determinant will be, whether that change is peaceful or violent?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Absolutely."}
{"id": "1068753263", "date": "2021-12-29", "guest": "Desmond Tutu", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Archbishop Desmond Tutu", "question_index": 19, "text": "I want to thank you very much for being with us this afternoon. Thank you very much for coming today.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It will be what the international community does. If it doesn't help us, we are for the birds."}
{"id": "1068753263", "date": "2021-12-29", "guest": "Desmond Tutu", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Archbishop Desmond Tutu", "question_index": 20, "text": "My interview with Desmond Tutu was recorded in 1984, shortly before he was named the recipient of the Nobel Peace Prize. We'll continue our remembrance after a short break and hear the interview I recorded with him in 1999 about the transition from apartheid to democracy and his work as the chair of South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. Thank you."}
{"id": "1068753263", "date": "2021-12-29", "guest": "Desmond Tutu", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Archbishop Desmond Tutu", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today, we're remembering Desmond Tutu. He died Sunday at age 90. He was one of the leaders of South Africa's anti-apartheid movement, and then helped lead the transition from apartheid to democracy. During the apartheid era, he was the first Black secretary general of the South African Council of Churches, the first Black bishop of Johannesburg and the Archbishop of Cape Town. In all these capacities, he used his power as a religious leader to protest against apartheid in his country and to travel around the world, urging leaders to impose sanctions and other pressures on the apartheid regime. He won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1984. After Nelson Mandela became president in 1994, having won the country's first fully democratic election, he named Tutu as chair of South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission. Its mission was to provide as complete a picture as possible of the gross human rights violations under apartheid. Those guilty of violations who offered truthful confession were considered for amnesty. When we spoke, Tutu had just written a book about the commission's work called \"No Future Without Forgiveness.\" I asked him if he thought the commission had succeeded in achieving reconciliation in South Africa.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. Thank you."}
{"id": "1068753263", "date": "2021-12-29", "guest": "Desmond Tutu", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Archbishop Desmond Tutu", "question_index": 22, "text": "In 1988, there was a massive bomb attack on the headquarters of the South African Council of Churches. The officials blamed the ANC for the attack. But you found out through the Truth and Reconciliation Commission that the police were behind it, and that President Botha had actually personally given orders for this attack.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is important to remember that there was no way in which a commission sitting for only two or three years would be able to undo the ravages of not just 50 years of apartheid, but several centuries o"}
{"id": "1068753263", "date": "2021-12-29", "guest": "Desmond Tutu", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Archbishop Desmond Tutu", "question_index": 23, "text": "Now, you personally knew P.W. Botha. You had met with him before this attack on the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is what one of the applicants, a cabinet minister at the time who was in charge of the police, claims, that the order to destroy council house came from the then state president, Mr. P.W. Botha."}
{"id": "1068753263", "date": "2021-12-29", "guest": "Desmond Tutu", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Archbishop Desmond Tutu", "question_index": 24, "text": "...Church headquarters. Did you see him after the Truth and Reconciliation Commission hearings that revealed what had really happened, who had really given orders behind this attack? Did you talk to him about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1068753263", "date": "2021-12-29", "guest": "Desmond Tutu", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Archbishop Desmond Tutu", "question_index": 25, "text": "I'm thinking of reconciliation here.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1068753263", "date": "2021-12-29", "guest": "Desmond Tutu", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Archbishop Desmond Tutu", "question_index": 26, "text": "Do you believe him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I, in fact, went to see him with many people attacking me for being so conciliatory, you know? We had subpoenaed him to appear before the commission. We wanted him to come and tell us his side of"}
{"id": "1068753263", "date": "2021-12-29", "guest": "Desmond Tutu", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Archbishop Desmond Tutu", "question_index": 27, "text": "Did the idea of reconciliation feel any different to you as an aggrieved party than it fell to you as the chair of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "of course not. No. I think, I mean, that he's an irascible old man who believes certain things firmly and had a particular kind of character and temperament. You know, he didn't stand any opposition. "}
{"id": "1068753263", "date": "2021-12-29", "guest": "Desmond Tutu", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Archbishop Desmond Tutu", "question_index": 28, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded with Desmond Tutu in 1999. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's difficult, perhaps, to make those distinctions because many of the aggrieved were sitting in front of me. And I had a real empathy with them - not even empathy. I mean, I could just as well have "}
{"id": "1068753263", "date": "2021-12-29", "guest": "Desmond Tutu", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Archbishop Desmond Tutu", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded in 1999 with Desmond Tutu. In his roles as the head of the South African Council of Churches, bishop of Johannesburg and archbishop of Cape Town, he was a leader in the fight against apartheid. He won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1984. After apartheid, he helped lead the transition to democracy as chair of South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission, a position he was appointed to by President Nelson Mandela.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's difficult, perhaps, to make those distinctions because many of the aggrieved were sitting in front of me. And I had a real empathy with them - not even empathy. I mean, I could just as well have "}
{"id": "1068753263", "date": "2021-12-29", "guest": "Desmond Tutu", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Archbishop Desmond Tutu", "question_index": 30, "text": "I think you imply in your book that you don't think the Truth and Reconciliation Commission would be possible if it weren't for Mandela's generous spirit, the fact that he can emerge from such a long prison stay and not be just kind of bitter and seeking revenge, but rather have this generosity of spirit that seemed...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's difficult, perhaps, to make those distinctions because many of the aggrieved were sitting in front of me. And I had a real empathy with them - not even empathy. I mean, I could just as well have "}
{"id": "1068753263", "date": "2021-12-29", "guest": "Desmond Tutu", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Archbishop Desmond Tutu", "question_index": 31, "text": "...To be almost contagious.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1068753263", "date": "2021-12-29", "guest": "Desmond Tutu", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Archbishop Desmond Tutu", "question_index": 32, "text": "You say that some people kind of referred to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission as the Kleenex Commission because there was so much crying during...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Twenty-seven years in jail, you know? I mean, that gave him an incredible kind of credibility. And the greatest part of his stature stems from the fact not that he presided over a very rich country - "}
{"id": "1068753263", "date": "2021-12-29", "guest": "Desmond Tutu", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Archbishop Desmond Tutu", "question_index": 33, "text": "...The testimony of people who had been victimized under apartheid. And you say that there was one episode in particular in which you really broke down and cried. And after that, you swore you would never cry during one of the commission meetings again. What was the story that got you to weep like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1068753263", "date": "2021-12-29", "guest": "Desmond Tutu", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Archbishop Desmond Tutu", "question_index": 34, "text": "We're listening to my 1999 interview with Desmond Tutu. We'll continue our remembrance after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And - but I had a tough time. I got to say, I said I considered that I was probably not the right person to be the chairperson of the commission. I thought that I was too weak."}
{"id": "1068753263", "date": "2021-12-29", "guest": "Desmond Tutu", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Archbishop Desmond Tutu", "question_index": 35, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're remembering Desmond Tutu, a leader in the fight to end apartheid in South Africa. He died Sunday at age 90. After Nelson Mandela was elected president in the country's first democratic election, he asked Tutu to chair South Africa's Truth and Reconciliation Commission to look into the crimes of apartheid. People guilty of human rights violations who offered truthful confessions were considered for amnesty. Listening to the testimony was traumatic for the victims and for the members of the commission. Is it true that the members of the commission got some kind of psychological counseling in how to deal with hearing so many stories of atrocities and torture?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And - but I had a tough time. I got to say, I said I considered that I was probably not the right person to be the chairperson of the commission. I thought that I was too weak."}
{"id": "1068753263", "date": "2021-12-29", "guest": "Desmond Tutu", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Archbishop Desmond Tutu", "question_index": 36, "text": "What about this? What about the survivors of victims, like the family of Steven Biko? He was a young, very forceful opponent of apartheid who was murdered in prison. And when the people who murdered him confessed, his family didn't want amnesty for the killers. They wanted to pursue criminal charges in court.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Right at the beginning, we were helped by one of our staff persons who was a psychologist or had psychological training. And he advised us, for instance, that we should try to maintain a discipl"}
{"id": "1068753263", "date": "2021-12-29", "guest": "Desmond Tutu", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Archbishop Desmond Tutu", "question_index": 37, "text": "And I'm sure that they weren't the only ones who felt that they were being robbed of pursuing it in court and having the people punished for their crimes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1068753263", "date": "2021-12-29", "guest": "Desmond Tutu", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Archbishop Desmond Tutu", "question_index": 38, "text": "What's your reaction to that? What's your response to them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1068753263", "date": "2021-12-29", "guest": "Desmond Tutu", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Archbishop Desmond Tutu", "question_index": 39, "text": "Well, thank you so much for sharing some of your time with us. Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Which mother would be regarded as a normal mother if she's told, you know, we gave your boys hand grenades, and they happened to be booby-trapped hand grenades, and when they pulled out the pin to thr"}
{"id": "1068753263", "date": "2021-12-29", "guest": "Desmond Tutu", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Archbishop Desmond Tutu", "question_index": 40, "text": "My interview with Desmond Tutu was recorded in 1999. He died Sunday at age 90. His funeral will be on New Year's Day. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll resume our holiday week series and feature two of the many interviews we enjoyed this year. We'll hear from Cecily Strong, a cast member of \"Saturday Night Live\" who's known for her impression of Fox News host Judge Jeanine Pirro and her character, the Girl You Wish You Hadn't Started a Conversation With at a Party. She starred in the recent series \"Schmigadoon!,\" a loving satire of classic musicals like \"The Music Man,\" \"The Sound of Music,\" \"Oklahoma!,\" \"Carousel\" and \"Brigadoon.\" And we'll hear from Cinco Paul who co-created \"Schmigadoon!\" and wrote all the songs. I hope you'll join us. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Seth Kelley and Kayla Lattimore. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "God bless you."}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. During this final week of the year, we're featuring a few of the many interviews from 2021 that we enjoyed. A TV series that I really enjoyed this year is \"Schmigadoon!,\" a smart, funny and loving satire of musicals from the '40s and '50s. It's streaming on Apple TV+. We'll hear two interviews related to the series. Later, we'll hear from Cinco Paul, who co-created the series and wrote all the songs. We'll start with Cecily Strong. She's been a cast member of \"Saturday Night Live\" since 2012. In her second season, she co-anchored \"Weekend Update\" with Seth Meyers and then Colin Jost. But she left the desk, preferring to do sketch comedy, which she's great at. Her characters have included Fox News host Judge Jeanine Pirro, Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer, Melania Trump and the Girl You Wish You Hadn't Started a Conversation With at a Party. This past summer, Strong published a memoir called \"This Will All Be Over Soon.\" And now she's appearing in New York in a limited-run production of Jane Wagner's \"The Search For Signs Of Intelligent Life In The Universe.\" This one-woman show was a Broadway hit in 1985 and starred Lily Tomlin as 12 characters, something Cecily Strong seems very well-suited for. Let's start with \"Schmigadoon!,\" which is filled with references to classic musicals, like \"Oklahoma!,\" \"Carousel,\" \"The Music Man,\" \"The Sound Of Music\" and, of course, \"Brigadoon.\" Cecily Strong and Keegan-Michael Key star as a couple of trying to reinvigorate their relationship by going on a hike designed for couples who need to reconnect. They get lost in the woods, cross over a bridge and suddenly find themselves on what looks like a backlot movie set of a small town in the early 20th century, a town called Schmigadoon. The women are wearing long, colorful prairie dresses with big petticoats. The men are dressed like they're in old-fashioned barbershop quartets. The townspeople are singing and dancing as if they're in an old musical. Cecily Strong's character loves musicals and is initially charmed. Keegan-Michael Key's character hates musicals and is desperate to leave. But they both soon realize they're trapped in Schmigadoon, where life is a musical. A leprechaun has explained to the couple - in song - that they can't leave Schmigadoon until they find true love, which means the depth of their love is about to be tested. In this scene, the couple keeps trying to escape Schmigadoon by crashing back over the bridge while bickering about their relationship.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 1, "text": "Cecily Strong, welcome to FRESH AIR. I love the show so much. It's brought me such pleasure at a time when I think we all need some pleasure. So how much do you love musicals?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As characters, singing) It's just a lover's spat. (As characters, singing) Just 'cause you feuded don't mean that you're concluded. (As characters, singing) It's as plain, plain, plain..."}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 2, "text": "And he's not just a Broadway producer. He's, like, a really big Broadway producer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "enjoys it and has joy from it. I'm also - love the show and get a lot of joy from it. I've always loved musicals. I mean, I think - it's certainly been a part of my life since I was little. You know, "}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 3, "text": "Like, among the shows he did was terrific revivals of \"Music Man,\" which is, of course, referenced", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Thank you."}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 4, "text": "in \"Schmigadoon!\" and also a terrific revival of \"How To Succeed In Business,\" a Sondheim tribute. So you must have had this idea early on that being in shows was something real people did. I mean, when I was growing up in Brooklyn, I thought people in movies and on Broadway were, like, from another planet. Like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Thank you."}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 5, "text": "...They didn't connect to the world I lived in. They just performed, you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Thank you."}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yeah, yeah. When you were going to see musicals that your uncle produced...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I guess I knew it as a job. And I always wanted to be an actor since I was little. I think I took my first drama class when I was 3. What - my parents put me in one, I should say. It's not like "}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 7, "text": "...Did you get to meet the actors? Did you get to go backstage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 8, "text": "So your character in \"Schmigadoon!\" is initially really charmed by the idea that they're, like, living in a world of a musical. And the first morning that you're there, you're having breakfast on the porch. And you're being, you know, waited on by a - you know, a very lovely, very young", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did - and I mean, not always. I saw \"Guys And Dolls.\" I saw \"Once Upon A Mattress,\" which I absolutely loved and really wanted to do. But I certainly - I remember getting to go backstage after \"Secr"}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 9, "text": "waitress. And she recommends the corn puddin'. And you go like, whoa, what's that? And it's like, you don't know what corn puddin' is? And so I want to play that scene 'cause it'll give a sense of how people just kind of break out into song around you and how you sometimes just chime right in. And so we'll hear Cecily Strong doing a little solo in part of this as Keegan-Michael Key objects", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did - and I mean, not always. I saw \"Guys And Dolls.\" I saw \"Once Upon A Mattress,\" which I absolutely loved and really wanted to do. But I certainly - I remember getting to go backstage after \"Secr"}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 10, "text": "to her participation. So here's another scene from \"Schmigadoon!\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did - and I mean, not always. I saw \"Guys And Dolls.\" I saw \"Once Upon A Mattress,\" which I absolutely loved and really wanted to do. But I certainly - I remember getting to go backstage after \"Secr"}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 11, "text": "That was another scene from \"Schmigadoon!,\" which stars my guest, Cecily Strong, and Keegan-Michael Key. God, this whole musical is so much fun. It's such a contrast for me seeing the joy in \"Schmigadoon!\" - 'cause everyone in it seems to be enjoying being in it so much and I was enjoying watching it so much - and the contrast between that and the depression and anxiety you describe in your memoir. Which - a lot of your memoir is about living through the pandemic, like, the first almost year of the pandemic. And you shot \"Schmigadoon!\" during the pandemic. What was it like for you to go from this heightened sense of anxiety and depression to flying to - was it Vancouver...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As characters, chanting) Corn puddin', corn puddin', corn puddin', corn puddin'."}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 12, "text": "...To shoot and be in these, like, exuberant, like, joyful production scenes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 13, "text": "Had you been vaccinated when you shot the series?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I said no, actually, at first to going to Vancouver and shooting because I was - I really was afraid. You know, and then it took a while to really understand - here's all of the things we're going to "}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 14, "text": "We're listening to my interview with Cecily Strong, who stars in \"Schmigadoon!,\" the Apple TV+ series which is a loving satire of classic musicals from the '40s and '50s. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No - 'cause I - I mean, we shot in - last fall. So that wasn't even - I didn't even know we'd get to be vaccinated. So we just were relying on testing."}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Cecily Strong, a star of the series \"Schmigadoon!,\" which is a loving satire of classic musicals from the '40s and '50s that's streaming on Apple TV+. Strong has been a cast member of \"Saturday Night Live\" since 2012. She co-anchored \"Weekend Update\" with Seth Meyers and then Colin Jost but stepped down, preferring to do sketch comedy. She's created some great characters for the show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No - 'cause I - I mean, we shot in - last fall. So that wasn't even - I didn't even know we'd get to be vaccinated. So we just were relying on testing."}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 16, "text": "So let's talk a little bit about your work on \"Saturday Night Live.\" I think my favorite character that you've been doing lately is Judge Jeanine Pirro, the Fox News host. You just really got her down", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No - 'cause I - I mean, we shot in - last fall. So that wasn't even - I didn't even know we'd get to be vaccinated. So we just were relying on testing."}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 17, "text": ". Was it your idea to do her, or did someone say, oh, you should do her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No - 'cause I - I mean, we shot in - last fall. So that wasn't even - I didn't even know we'd get to be vaccinated. So we just were relying on testing."}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 18, "text": "So let's hear a clip of you doing Jeanine Pirro. This was performed after Pirro made anti-Muslim remarks about Representative Ilhan Omar. So here you are on \"Weekend Update\" as Judge Jeanine Pirro.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. It actually - I think it was probably Bryan Tucker, who I write with. And I wound up writing a lot of my \"Update\" characters with him or sort of those - anybody that's a real - you know, I write M"}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 19, "text": "That's Cecily Strong as Judge Jeanine Pirro. That's just so funny. What did you do to try to capture her voice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Jeanine Pirro) Can't do it, pal. Mama's got one volume, and it's three chardonnays deep at a crowded party."}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 20, "text": "There's times on Update when Colin Jost has been laughing, like, so hard because you're so funny. And is it hard for you to keep a straight face when he's having trouble keeping a straight face?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, we definitely loved the exclamations, you know, saving those for the - what? And then just being loud and overenunciating and trying to have a stern look. You know, she's always got a very g"}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 21, "text": "So I want to ask you about another character that you've done, and that's the Girl You Wish You Hadn't Started a Conversation With at a Party. Is that an idea that you originated?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I almost enjoy it more to see when someone's laughing. Then I kind of want to, like, go further. And you know, there is still an element of, like, you're playing with your friends. And it is - it stil"}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 22, "text": "And who did you think of as being the girl?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. It was my first year talking with Colin. You know, we were getting ready for one of those - I think they were two \"Update\" specials because it was an election year. And he was trying to help me f"}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 23, "text": "Let's hear you as the Girl You Wish You Hadn't Started a Conversation With at a Party. And this is from the February 20, 2017, edition of \"Saturday Night Live.\" We'll first hear the voice of Michael Che on \"Weekend Update.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was sort of a mix of, like, I'm making fun of myself, and then I'm thinking about people I'd seen on Facebook. And then I remembered, like, hearing my straight male friends talk about interac"}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 24, "text": "That's really funny. Talk about the process of writing that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As The Girl You Wish You Hadn't Started a Conversation with at a Party) Do you even know what women have to do when we go vote, Michael? We have to show our IUD. I'm sorry. That's outrighteous (ph). "}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 25, "text": "I love the way mansplaining becomes like, don't man-terrupt me", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's usually just Colin and I. And we both enjoy malapropisms, I think, as much as each other, so it's a lot of that. Like, what word - what is, like, a word that's in the social lexicon of the mome"}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 26, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's usually just Colin and I. And we both enjoy malapropisms, I think, as much as each other, so it's a lot of that. Like, what word - what is, like, a word that's in the social lexicon of the mome"}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 27, "text": "That makes no sense at all", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 28, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 29, "text": "My interview with Cecily Strong was recorded in August. She's a cast member of \"Saturday Night Live\" and stars in the series \"Schmigadoon!,\" a satire of classic musicals from the '40s and '50s that's streaming on Apple TV+. We'll hear from the co-creator of \"Schmigadoon!\" Cinco Paul, who also wrote all the songs, after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. She's taken all these concepts and just turned them into something confusing and wrong that she's very passionate about."}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 30, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. In watching \"Schmigadoon!,\" I had to wonder who is able to produce such a great series that is both a tribute to and a satire of musicals of the 1940s and early '50s like \"Oklahoma!,\" \"Carousel,\" \"The Sound Of Music,\" \"The Music Man\" and, of course, \"Brigadoon.\" So a few weeks after talking to Cecily Strong about starring in the series, I spoke with Cinco Paul, who wrote all the songs. He co-created and co-wrote the series with Ken Daurio. They also wrote the animated films \"Despicable Me,\" \"The Secret Life Of Pets\" and the Dr. Seuss adaptations \"Horton Hears A Who!\" and \"The Lorax.\" We started with the opening song from \"Schmigadoon!\" A married couple, played by Cecily Strong and Keegan-Michael Key, have gotten lost in the woods and emerged to find themselves in a small town called Schmigadoon. The town looks like a stage or movie set from the early 20th century. The couple is totally disoriented and dumbstruck when the townspeople break into song. See if you can recognize what inspired this song. (SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, \"SCHMIGADOON!\")", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. She's taken all these concepts and just turned them into something confusing and wrong that she's very passionate about."}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 31, "text": "Cinco Paul, welcome to FRESH AIR. Thank you so much for creating this series.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As characters, singing) In Schmigadoon. Farmer McDonough craved a son."}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 32, "text": "How did you come up with the idea of a musical about people trapped in a musical set in the early 20th century?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you for having me."}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 33, "text": "So the Cecily Strong character loves musicals. The Keegan-Michael Key character hates musicals. Why did you want him to hate musicals?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's kind of crazy. I had the idea for this almost 25 years ago, and it was while I was watching the movie \"An American Werewolf In London,\" of all things, one of my favorite movies. And it open"}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 34, "text": "Oh, boy. You're trapped. (LAUGHTER)", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I thought it was really important. I mean, first of all, it's really funny to have someone who hates musicals be stuck in a musical but also for him to be the eyes and ears of the people unlike "}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 35, "text": "One of the things in some musicals is - the love affairs in some musicals, I think, would be considered pretty age-inappropriate now, like, for example, \"The Sound Of Music,\" where, like, she's a young nun who's just left the convent. And she ends up, you know, falling in love with this kind of mean-spirited older man who, of course, becomes a much better human being as soon as he falls in love with her, this kind of, like, magical transformation. In \"South Pacific,\" there's a younger woman who ends up falling in love with an older man. I think you have a shout-out to that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was not a fan. He's become a little more of a fan. And, you know, I wouldn't say my wife hates musicals. But she does not, you know, embrace them in the way that I do. So it was really important fo"}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 36, "text": "And so is that one of the things you wanted to play with - also the idea that, like, love can totally transform a person into - you know, a kind of stern, rigid person into a much more loving, lovely person?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 37, "text": "Some musicals have really corny scenes in them, and the kind of scene that always bores me is the picnic scene where it's like, this was a real nice clambake. I'm really glad we came. It's like, can we skip that (laughter)? Can we skip that and get to the good stuff? And, you know, even, like, operas have, like, songs like that, where there's, you know, like, a festival or, you know, a picnic or something. And, like, those are usually boring, too, and I never really understand the function that they serve. And you kind of have a song parodying that called \"Corn Puddin'.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, when we were early on conceiving of the show and the journeys that our characters would take, I really wanted Cecily's character Melissa to be involved in what I think are the two big tropes"}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 38, "text": "And so the reason why they're singing about corn pudding is it's their first morning in town. And they're sitting on the porch and about to have breakfast, and they're asked if they want some corn pudding. And they don't even know what corn pudding is. And then the town just starts singing about how great corn pudding is. So I'd like you to talk a little bit about what you think of those moments in musicals where you have to sing about food or a picnic or a clambake.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 39, "text": "And the waitress delivering the corn pudding is the younger woman who's pursuing him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The songs really should move the story forward in some way. And I think that the worst example is \"Shipoopi\" from \"Music Man,\" which is - it brings everything to a grinding halt, and then this Marcell"}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 40, "text": "Why don't we hear \"Corn Puddin'\"? And we'll also hear the Cecily Strong character kind of join in in a verse, much to the Keegan-Michael Key character's annoyance. (SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, \"SCHMIGADOON!\")", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 41, "text": "(Laughter) The music is kind of like a hoedown.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As characters, singing) Oh, she sure would like a taste. Corn, corn, corn, corn, corn puddin'. Yum."}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 42, "text": "And it just reminded me, too, that when I was in school, we had to learn some of that kind of dancing - you know, like, square dancing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 43, "text": "Yeah. It's like, why are we learning this? We live in Brooklyn. Like, what are you thinking?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that was part of the curriculum somehow."}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 44, "text": "(Laughter) I like that idea, the square dancing lobby.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Laughter) I guess it was more appropriate for me growing up in Phoenix. I wonder if - is square dancing still taught in some schools? I feel like when my kids were little, they were still teaching sq"}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 45, "text": "OK, let me reintroduce you here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Cinco Paul, and he co-created, co-wrote and then wrote all the songs for the satirical musical series \"Schmigadoon!\", which is now streaming on Apple TV+. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR. (SOUNDBITE OF GWENDOLYN DEASE'S \"PORKCHOP'S BLUES\")", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 46, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Cinco Paul. He co-created, co-wrote and wrote all the songs for the series \"Schmigadoon!\", a loving satire of classic musicals from the 1940s and early '50s, like \"Oklahoma!\", \"Carousel,\" \"The Music Man,\" \"The Sound Of Music,\" \"South Pacific\" and \"Brigadoon.\" He also co-wrote the animated films \"Despicable Me,\" \"The Secret Life Of Pets,\" and \"Horton Hears A Who.\" I want to get to another song. We all know that so many performers on Broadway historically have been gay, and it's only in recent years that they've been able to be out. And it's only recently that are - there are actually musicals about gay people who are out of the closet. So you have a few really funny references to, like, closeted gay people in musicals. One of the really funny songs - the mayor, who's played by Alan Cumming, is secretly gay, and it's a secret he's never disclosed to anybody. And he sings a song that kind of is a \"Secret Love\" kind of song (laughter) but...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 47, "text": "Because she has gaydar and no one in the town does (laughter).", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, where he inadvertently reveals to Cecily's character that he's gay."}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 48, "text": "But the mayor's wife sings a song that's called \"He's A Queer One, That Man O' Mine.\" She has no clue that he's gay, but she knows that, you know, he's different from the other men. And usually in those songs, that's like, he's wonderful. He's so different from other men. But in this one, it's kind of like, hmm, he's so different than other men. I want you to talk about writing this because this is an example of a song that I don't think closely adheres to another song. It's a kind of - there's references to other songs in it, including \"You're A Queer One, Julie Jordan\" from - that's from \"Carousel,\" right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, exactly."}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 49, "text": "Yeah. So - but talk about writing this and what you wanted to do with it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's from \"Carousel,\" yeah."}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 50, "text": "Yeah, he's great in it. So this starts - this clip will start with Cecily Strong speaking, and I should say that the mayor's last name is Menlove. (LAUGHTER)", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, he's amazing, and he's so tender, and he loves cooking. And, you know, she talks about, like, other men are really harsh and - but he's gentle, you know, like a lacy valentine. And for her, "}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 51, "text": "Another little clue. OK, so here's \"He's A Queer One,\" and this is Ann Harada singing. (SOUNDBITE OF TV SHOW, \"SCHMIGADOON!\")", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, he's amazing, and he's so tender, and he loves cooking. And, you know, she talks about, like, other men are really harsh and - but he's gentle, you know, like a lacy valentine. And for her, "}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 52, "text": "That's music from \"Schmigadoon!\" - the loving satire of '40s and early 1950s musicals. And my guest, Cinco Paul, co-created the series, co-wrote it and wrote all the songs. Oh, that's really - it's a funny song, but it's also - it's a lovely song. It's a nice melody.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Florence, singing) Sometimes it may seem like he is too good to be true, like there's a man that I can't see just aching to break through. I wish I could free him so I could finally see him the wa"}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 53, "text": "We're listening to my interview with Cinco Paul. He co-wrote, co-created and wrote all the songs for the satire of musicals called \"Schmigadoon!\" The series is streaming on Apple TV+. We'll be right back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR. (SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean, that was the intention. I never wanted the songs to be too jokey, if that makes sense. You know, I really wanted them - like, oh, that could genuinely have been a song sung in an undisco"}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 54, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Cinco Paul. He co-created, co-wrote and wrote all the songs for the series \"Schmigadoon!\" He also co-wrote the animated films \"Despicable Me,\" \"The Secret Life Of Pets,\" \"Horton Hears A Who!\" and \"The Lorax.\" How were you first exposed to musicals? Like, where did you grow up? Did you see music theatre? Was this all through movies?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean, that was the intention. I never wanted the songs to be too jokey, if that makes sense. You know, I really wanted them - like, oh, that could genuinely have been a song sung in an undisco"}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 55, "text": "What are some of the movies and some of the cartoons that you grew up with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I grew up in Phoenix, Ariz., so I didn't see a lot of shows live, but my mom really loved musicals, and she had cast recordings for - I specifically remember \"Camelot\" - you know, loving as a pretty y"}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 56, "text": "You love movies, and you and your writing partner, Ken Daurio, have a podcast. Is this still going on, your podcast?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The first cartoon I saw that really impacted me, I think, was \"The Jungle Book.\" I loved that movie so much, and the songs in that are so good. And then I have to say the Marx Brothers have played a h"}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 57, "text": "Then you have a couple episodes where you share your opinions of films of the '80s and films of the '90s. But I want to play the theme song from this because I think it's you and Ken actually singing the song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's called \"Make Him Watch It,\" and we make each other watch a movie we've never seen before."}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 58, "text": "Oh, you wrote the song? And so in the spirit of turning your life into a musical, I just want to play the opening theme from your podcast, \"Make Him Watch It.\" (SOUNDBITE OF PODCAST, \"MAKE HIM WATCH IT\") CINCO", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is. I wrote the song."}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 59, "text": "I really love that. It's so, like, vaudeville era.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Here's what we're going to do. We're going to make him watch it for a podcast. We can't wait to make him watch it - with Cinco and Ken."}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 60, "text": "How were you introduced to music of that period?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Laughter) Yes."}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 61, "text": "Well, listen. Congratulations on \"Schmigadoon!\" Please do a Season 2. And it's been great to talk with you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it probably came from my love of the Marx Brothers, you know. And, you know, their - a lot of their movies were kind of musicals. You know, \"The Coconauts,\" \"Animal Crackers,\" \"Horse Feathers\""}
{"id": "1069078342", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Cecily Strong", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' star Cecily Strong and co-creator Cinco Paul embrace musical satire", "question_index": 62, "text": "Cinco Paul wrote all the songs for the satirical musical series \"Schmigadoon!\" which he also co-created and co-wrote. It's streaming on Apple TV+. Our interview was recorded in August. If you're looking for things to listen to over the holiday weekend, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews, including the ones we featured this week with Fran Lebowitz and Kieran Culkin. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Seth Kelley and Kayla Lattimore. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "From your mouth to God's ears. Terry, I have to say it is so meaningful to me that you like the show and that you responded to it like this. Thank you so much."}
{"id": "1069091941", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Dave Grohl", "title": "Dave Grohl retraces his life-affirming path from Nirvana to Foo Fighters", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today we conclude our holiday week series with the interview I recorded last month with Dave Grohl, founder of the band Foo Fighters. The band was inducted into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame this year. The first time Grohl was inducted was as the drummer for the band Nirvana. The induction speech for Foo Fighters was given by Paul McCartney, who made several comparisons between his life and Grohl's. He said they each joined a group - for McCartney, it was the Beatles; for Grohl, Nirvana. Both groups faced tragedy. Both groups broke up. And McCartney and Grohl were faced with the question, what do you do now? Each of them answered by making an album in which they played all the instruments themselves. For Grohl, that was the first Foo Fighters album. Even though he recorded it by himself, he did it under the name Foo Fighters. He didn't put together the band until after recording that album. McCartney went on to describe Foo Fighters as one of the greatest rock 'n' roll bands in the world. Dave Grohl has a new memoir called \"The Storyteller\" that's now on top of The New York Times bestseller list. We recorded this interview at a live Zoom event. Grohl was in his studio. with his guitar and played a few songs.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1069091941", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Dave Grohl", "title": "Dave Grohl retraces his life-affirming path from Nirvana to Foo Fighters", "question_index": 1, "text": "Dave Grohl, thank you again for coming. Welcome, welcome. So I asked you if you could play a few song excerpts for us, and happily you agreed. And so I'm going to ask you to start one, and this might be your most popular song. You end shows with it. David Letterman had you and the band do it when he got out of the hospital after his heart attack because it was so helpful during his recovery. But this is also a song that's obviously very meaningful to you, as well as to your fans. So by way of introduction, tell us what this song means to you in your life.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1069091941", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Dave Grohl", "title": "Dave Grohl retraces his life-affirming path from Nirvana to Foo Fighters", "question_index": 2, "text": "That sounded great. Thank you so much for doing that. You know, you started as a drummer, and, you know, you can hear a very percussive, rhythmic style in your guitar playing. I guess that's what comes naturally to you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I wrote this song, I think, in 1997. And it was at a time in my life where I was coming out of a relationship but still feeling love and falling in love. And the feeling of the deep connection b"}
{"id": "1069091941", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Dave Grohl", "title": "Dave Grohl retraces his life-affirming path from Nirvana to Foo Fighters", "question_index": 3, "text": "So being self-taught, if I asked you what chords you just played, would you say, I don't know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. You know, it's funny. I've tried to explain this before. I almost look at the strings on a guitar like the different drums in a drum set. So I can't read music. I'm self-taught. So I don't"}
{"id": "1069091941", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Dave Grohl", "title": "Dave Grohl retraces his life-affirming path from Nirvana to Foo Fighters", "question_index": 4, "text": "OK", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". That's about it."}
{"id": "1069091941", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Dave Grohl", "title": "Dave Grohl retraces his life-affirming path from Nirvana to Foo Fighters", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". That's about it."}
{"id": "1069091941", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Dave Grohl", "title": "Dave Grohl retraces his life-affirming path from Nirvana to Foo Fighters", "question_index": 6, "text": "So I have a drumstick question for you. You know, in your memoir, you write that you had one drum lesson. And the teacher, who was a jazz musician, said, hey, you're holding the sticks backwards. It's, like, the rounded end that you're supposed to be hitting the drums with and not, like, the thick end. Did you keep playing them that way, especially, like, in punk bands, where you really wanted to cut through?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So - but this particular chord? No clue what that is, no idea."}
{"id": "1069091941", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Dave Grohl", "title": "Dave Grohl retraces his life-affirming path from Nirvana to Foo Fighters", "question_index": 7, "text": "When you were, I think, in your mid-teens, you were taken to your first punk rock club. And it's like you finally felt like you found your people. And you wrote, I saw slam dancing, stage diving, the crowd chanting the words to each song with fists in the air. I was stepped on, shoved and punched. And I loved it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did, actually, yeah. The drummer that I took my one lesson from, the first thing he told me was that I was holding my sticks backwards. For jazz drumming, backwards sticks don't work. For loud, bras"}
{"id": "1069091941", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Dave Grohl", "title": "Dave Grohl retraces his life-affirming path from Nirvana to Foo Fighters", "question_index": 8, "text": "Now, you also say it released this pent-up energy. And what was that energy? Was it anger? Was it rebellion? Was it just, like, youthful exuberance and love of music? What was it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, you know, to me, the greatest thing about it was, first of all, this is in Chicago in, I think, 1982. There's this little bar across the street from Wrigley Field called The Cubby Bear. And I "}
{"id": "1069091941", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Dave Grohl", "title": "Dave Grohl retraces his life-affirming path from Nirvana to Foo Fighters", "question_index": 9, "text": "My guest is Dave Grohl, founder of the band Foo Fighters. He was the drummer in Nirvana. His new memoir is called \"The Storyteller.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's funny because my generation was labeled Generation X, I think. And at that point, the term - it sort of implied that you were a slacker or you had a dysfunctional childhood, and you were angry or"}
{"id": "1069091941", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Dave Grohl", "title": "Dave Grohl retraces his life-affirming path from Nirvana to Foo Fighters", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Dave Grohl, founder and frontman of the band Foo Fighters, which was just inducted into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. He was previously inducted as a member of Nirvana. He was Nirvana's drummer. His new memoir is called \"The Storyteller.\" When you were 17, you auditioned as the drummer for the punk band Scream. You lied about your age", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's funny because my generation was labeled Generation X, I think. And at that point, the term - it sort of implied that you were a slacker or you had a dysfunctional childhood, and you were angry or"}
{"id": "1069091941", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Dave Grohl", "title": "Dave Grohl retraces his life-affirming path from Nirvana to Foo Fighters", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's funny because my generation was labeled Generation X, I think. And at that point, the term - it sort of implied that you were a slacker or you had a dysfunctional childhood, and you were angry or"}
{"id": "1069091941", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Dave Grohl", "title": "Dave Grohl retraces his life-affirming path from Nirvana to Foo Fighters", "question_index": 12, "text": "No, absolutely. Absolutely. And you knew all their records. You knew all their songs. You knew, like, the drum parts. And they were impressed. And so at age 17, you became their drummer. And just - can you give us a little taste of what Scream songs were like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "?"}
{"id": "1069091941", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Dave Grohl", "title": "Dave Grohl retraces his life-affirming path from Nirvana to Foo Fighters", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Playing guitar). First of all, Scream songs were very fast, OK? So they were considered hardcore punk rock. So it wasn't like the (rhythmically hitting guitar with guitar pick) 120 beats per minute, "}
{"id": "1069091941", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Dave Grohl", "title": "Dave Grohl retraces his life-affirming path from Nirvana to Foo Fighters", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Just, like, mercilessly pummeling these drum sets. Now, you also have to know that I didn't learn to play the drums on a drum set. I learned to play on pillows on my bedroom floor. So I had a pair "}
{"id": "1069091941", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Dave Grohl", "title": "Dave Grohl retraces his life-affirming path from Nirvana to Foo Fighters", "question_index": 15, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Because they knew - oh, God, if he touches it, there's going to be a broken cymbal; there's going to be a broken drum head. So this was that sort of hyperactive energy that I had my entire life, bu"}
{"id": "1069091941", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Dave Grohl", "title": "Dave Grohl retraces his life-affirming path from Nirvana to Foo Fighters", "question_index": 16, "text": "So you toured with the band and during that time mostly lived in a van. Altogether, there were - what? - five or six guys in there, including the roadie?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But in my mind, I was - you know, this was rock 'n' roll Valhalla, you know?"}
{"id": "1069091941", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Dave Grohl", "title": "Dave Grohl retraces his life-affirming path from Nirvana to Foo Fighters", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yeah. And you recently did a documentary about van life, talking about your own life in a van and other rock bands for whom living in a van was a formative experience and traveling in the van. You have a kind of vivid description", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, six dudes in a van - oof (ph)."}
{"id": "1069091941", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Dave Grohl", "title": "Dave Grohl retraces his life-affirming path from Nirvana to Foo Fighters", "question_index": 18, "text": "in the book of what it's like. It doesn't sound very appealing. But you were on the road and playing, and that's what counted. So give us a sense of what it was like with five guys, six guys - how many were you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, six dudes in a van - oof (ph)."}
{"id": "1069091941", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Dave Grohl", "title": "Dave Grohl retraces his life-affirming path from Nirvana to Foo Fighters", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There were five guys in the band, and my best friend Jimmy (ph) was the roadie. And so basically - you know, back then, underground bands - most bands toured in vans that were kind of converted into a"}
{"id": "1069091941", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Dave Grohl", "title": "Dave Grohl retraces his life-affirming path from Nirvana to Foo Fighters", "question_index": 20, "text": "So after playing with Scream for a few years, you found out that Nirvana was looking for a drummer because you had a friend who grew up with some of the guys from Nirvana, so he knew what was going on. And you tried to audition. You ended up talking to Kurt Cobain about the band. I don't know if you actually had a music audition or not.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was great. I have really fond memories of that time."}
{"id": "1069091941", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Dave Grohl", "title": "Dave Grohl retraces his life-affirming path from Nirvana to Foo Fighters", "question_index": 21, "text": "So before we get into your life with Nirvana and that period of your life, I want to contrast what you played with Nirvana and what you played with Scream to a song that influenced you when you were young. And so choose a song for us that would fit that description.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it really started with a phone call. The band Scream - the guitar player and the singer are brothers, and their sister lived in Los Angeles. Whenever we came to Los Angeles, we had a place to st"}
{"id": "1069091941", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Dave Grohl", "title": "Dave Grohl retraces his life-affirming path from Nirvana to Foo Fighters", "question_index": 22, "text": "Yeah, you did it at the In Memoriam at the Oscars.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I was a huge Beatles fan when I was young. The Beatles were my first teacher. My mother bought me this old guitar and a Beatles songbook and a Beatles record. And I would sit on my flo"}
{"id": "1069091941", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Dave Grohl", "title": "Dave Grohl retraces his life-affirming path from Nirvana to Foo Fighters", "question_index": 23, "text": "Did you have to change your drumming when you started playing with Nirvana compared to Scream?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. But, you know, the funny thing is, before I did it there, I did it with my daughter Violet at a school entertainment day. And she had - she - they announced the school entertainment day. I thin"}
{"id": "1069091941", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Dave Grohl", "title": "Dave Grohl retraces his life-affirming path from Nirvana to Foo Fighters", "question_index": 24, "text": "Can you beat out an example on your guitar?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, the two bands are different, for sure. There was a simplicity to Nirvana's music, and I think that's one of the reasons why it's proved to be so effective in that, like, the guitar pla"}
{"id": "1069091941", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Dave Grohl", "title": "Dave Grohl retraces his life-affirming path from Nirvana to Foo Fighters", "question_index": 25, "text": "Wow. That's great. That is really great. So Kurt Cobain did have, like, mood issues, depression. It's hard to be around somebody who's very depressed a lot of the time, and you want to - I mean, your impulse is to cheer them up. There's really nothing you can do to cheer them up. And people can become very irritable when they're depressed. So I'm interested in the impact of his depression on you and on the band.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Yeah. Well, there's a song like \"Come As You Are\" or even \"Smells Like Teen Spirit.\" There's a term called a flam, which is when you use two sticks to hit the same drum, and rather than hi"}
{"id": "1069091941", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Dave Grohl", "title": "Dave Grohl retraces his life-affirming path from Nirvana to Foo Fighters", "question_index": 26, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, at first, when I moved up and started living in that small apartment with them, I mean, this was someone that I had never met before, I didn't know. At first, I thought, maybe he's qui"}
{"id": "1069091941", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Dave Grohl", "title": "Dave Grohl retraces his life-affirming path from Nirvana to Foo Fighters", "question_index": 27, "text": "When you say it exploded, sometimes the club would explode too, you know? And sometimes Kurt Cobain would explode. I mean, he would destroy instruments. He would destroy your drums. He once destroyed the mixing board that wasn't his.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, like, those moments were so much fun, you know? So it wasn't always doom and gloom. But, of course, I think there were moments where Kurt would retreat into his own - into his shell and write, is"}
{"id": "1069091941", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Dave Grohl", "title": "Dave Grohl retraces his life-affirming path from Nirvana to Foo Fighters", "question_index": 28, "text": "I mean, it was the engineer's soundboard. And it got really dangerous. And sometimes the crowd would rush the stage, and that got dangerous, too. I'm wondering what it was like for you to be in the middle of such chaos on stage and to not know when it was going to happen, because sometimes it sounded like it was part of, like, the fun and the ethic to, like, be wild on stage and destroy something. And sometimes it sounded like it was really rage. It was, like, genuine rage.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1069091941", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Dave Grohl", "title": "Dave Grohl retraces his life-affirming path from Nirvana to Foo Fighters", "question_index": 29, "text": "I asked you before the interview if you would play the first song that you ever wrote. And coincidentally, it's a song about Kurt Cobain, and it's called \"Friend Of A Friend.\" Would you play a little bit of that for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, first of all, when that record \"Nevermind\" was released, we embarked on a tour that was very much the same as any tour I had done with Scream or Nirvana had done before. We were playing pl"}
{"id": "1069091941", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Dave Grohl", "title": "Dave Grohl retraces his life-affirming path from Nirvana to Foo Fighters", "question_index": 30, "text": "Do you feel something emotional when you play it now because it's been so long?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It's been a long time."}
{"id": "1069091941", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Dave Grohl", "title": "Dave Grohl retraces his life-affirming path from Nirvana to Foo Fighters", "question_index": 31, "text": "Yeah, so thank you. Thank you for playing that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do. I mean, I actually had to have someone get me the lyrics. But, you know, the lyrics of the song, it's almost like each verse is about each person. So the first verse says he needs a quiet room w"}
{"id": "1069091941", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Dave Grohl", "title": "Dave Grohl retraces his life-affirming path from Nirvana to Foo Fighters", "question_index": 32, "text": "So when he died by suicide, he left a suicide note, and I just want to quote something he says in the note. Well, I'll just paraphrase it. He talked about no longer enjoying performing or playing music anymore and not wanting to have to fake it. Now, obviously, it was more than that because he says in that note, to his daughter, you'll be better off without me. But I'm wondering if that scared you - not only his death, which of course, was horrifying, and it was, you know, a tragedy for him and for everybody who knew him. But did that scare you that maybe someday you'll end up feeling that way, and that you won't be able to function after that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're welcome."}
{"id": "1069091941", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Dave Grohl", "title": "Dave Grohl retraces his life-affirming path from Nirvana to Foo Fighters", "question_index": 33, "text": "Since part of, like, your whole way of being was that the band was a family, whether it was Scream or Nirvana. And suddenly, like, you not only had Kurt Cobain, you didn't have that music family anymore.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it did. And, you know, there are moments where you get that feeling, I think, as a musician or a performer or as an artist. I think that there are times where you hit that wall, and you realize "}
{"id": "1069091941", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Dave Grohl", "title": "Dave Grohl retraces his life-affirming path from Nirvana to Foo Fighters", "question_index": 34, "text": "Why did you switch from drums to guitar once it was your band?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think that - well, in a way, it brought a lot of us closer together. You know, as musicians, we would strap on our instruments and make a bunch of noise and then kind of go our separate ways w"}
{"id": "1069091941", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Dave Grohl", "title": "Dave Grohl retraces his life-affirming path from Nirvana to Foo Fighters", "question_index": 35, "text": "Did you have to start really practicing guitar?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm that guy. I'm like, screw it. Let's try it. Who cares?"}
{"id": "1069091941", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Dave Grohl", "title": "Dave Grohl retraces his life-affirming path from Nirvana to Foo Fighters", "question_index": 36, "text": "What did you have to learn that you didn't know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And a lot - yeah. For a lot of the stuff that I had to play live, yes."}
{"id": "1069091941", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Dave Grohl", "title": "Dave Grohl retraces his life-affirming path from Nirvana to Foo Fighters", "question_index": 37, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, honestly, standing up and playing guitar. Like..."}
{"id": "1069091941", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Dave Grohl", "title": "Dave Grohl retraces his life-affirming path from Nirvana to Foo Fighters", "question_index": 38, "text": "I think for anybody who starts out with, like, an ethic or a philosophy - like with punk, like, the ethic is DIY and, like, high energy on stage and, you know, damn the outside world. And - you know, it's like - it's a subculture that's really tight. But you're many years older now, and you're the father of three. You're the frontman for your own band, internationally known. And did you have a turning point in your life where you had to decide, were you going to just kind of stick to the ethic that you started with because that's the authentic you, or were you going to allow yourself to, like, evolve and change and just, you know, let certain things go and still feel like, yeah, you're still being authentic, you're just naturally changing and growing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...My entire life, I'd been sitting on a couch playing Beatles songs. And all of a sudden I'm like, wait, this is horizontal? What? How does that - so, yeah. I mean, there was a lot to learn. And, of "}
{"id": "1069091941", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Dave Grohl", "title": "Dave Grohl retraces his life-affirming path from Nirvana to Foo Fighters", "question_index": 39, "text": "Can I ask you to leave us with a short excerpt of one of your songs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think that has a lot to do with it. I mean, like I said earlier, when I went to that first punk rock show, that sense of community and that tribe of those people, those like-minded kids that m"}
{"id": "1069091941", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Dave Grohl", "title": "Dave Grohl retraces his life-affirming path from Nirvana to Foo Fighters", "question_index": 40, "text": "That seems like the perfect note to end on.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. (Playing guitar, singing) I - I'm a one-way motorway. I'm a road that drives away, follows you back home. I - I'm a street light shining. I'm a wild light blinding bright, burning off and on. (V"}
{"id": "1069091941", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Dave Grohl", "title": "Dave Grohl retraces his life-affirming path from Nirvana to Foo Fighters", "question_index": 41, "text": "It has been so wonderful talking with you and hearing you play and sing. You've been so generous with us, and I so appreciate it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. (Playing guitar, singing) I - I'm a one-way motorway. I'm a road that drives away, follows you back home. I - I'm a street light shining. I'm a wild light blinding bright, burning off and on. (V"}
{"id": "1069091941", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Dave Grohl", "title": "Dave Grohl retraces his life-affirming path from Nirvana to Foo Fighters", "question_index": 42, "text": "My interview with Dave Grohl was recorded in November at a live streaming event to benefit WHYY, where FRESH AIR is produced. The live event was produced by WHYY's Emily Kinslow. Our thanks to our technical director and engineer, Audrey Bentham, and to Alister Christy (ph), Oliver Roman (ph) and Evan Maiakofsky (ph) for technical support on Grohl's end. Dave Grohl's new bestselling memoir is called \"The Storyteller.\" Monday on FRESH AIR, my first guest of the new year will be Kirsten Dunst. She stars in the new film \"The Power Of The Dog.\" I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. That was really fun. Thank you so much."}
{"id": "1069091941", "date": "2021-12-31", "guest": "Dave Grohl", "title": "Dave Grohl retraces his life-affirming path from Nirvana to Foo Fighters", "question_index": 43, "text": "All of us at FRESH AIR wish you a healthy and fulfilling 2022, with an emphasis on healthy. Our thanks to everyone who will be working over the holiday to keep things going while the rest of us take the day off. And our thanks to everyone who risked their own health this year to help others - the doctors and nurses, all the medical support and the people in other jobs, like factory workers, transportation workers, grocery workers and so many more. You have our gratitude. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelly, and Kayla Lattimore. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. That was really fun. Thank you so much."}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Kirsten Dunst, is one of the stars of the new film \"The Power Of The Dog,\" which is streaming on Netflix. It's been turning up on many 10-best lists, including Justin Chang's, our film critic, who called the film a magnificent Western psychodrama. Dunst was described in the November issue of Vogue as the current frontrunner for 2022's best supporting actress Oscar. She got her start in movies at age 8 in \"Bonfire Of The Vanities.\" At 11, she played a vampire in \"Interview With The Vampire.\" She starred in arthouse films, like Lars von Trier's \"Melancholia\" and Sofia Coppola's \"The Virgin Suicides\" and \"Marie Antoinette,\" as well as in more mainstream films like \"Bring It On\" and the Spider-Man movies. Her new film, \"The Power Of The Dog,\" was directed by Jane Campion and is set in Montana in 1925. Dunst plays a widow who runs a small inn in a one-street town with the help of her son, who's a young adult. Two brothers, played by Benedict Cumberbatch and Jesse Plemons, who own a ranch, are leading a cattle drive, herding the cattle to market. On the way, they stop at Dunst's inn and dining hall. Cumberbatch is macho and is condescending and nasty to others, including his brother. Plemons is soft-spoken and businesslike. When Dunst's son serves them dinner, Cumberbatch mocks him for being effeminate. Plemons stays to pay the bill and finds Dunst in tears, upset by how Plemons' brother treated her son. Plemons soon marries her and brings her back to the ranch, where his brother torments her and her son when he visits. The story has many surprising twists and turns as Campion explores the image of rugged masculinity that Cumberbatch embodies and slowly reveals what's going on beneath that surface. Although Dunst is living on the ranch in a well-appointed home, home offers no comfort, as she's constantly insulted and ridiculed by Cumberbatch - becomes increasingly lonely and depressed and turns to alcohol. In a New York Times review of the film, A.O. Scott wrote, few performers can break your heart like Dunst, whose face becomes a landscape of pain as all Rose's initial happiness drains away. This is the second time that Dunst has starred opposite her now-husband, Jesse Plemons, with whom she has two children. The first time was on the FX series \"Fargo.\" Kirsten Dunst, welcome to FRESH AIR, and congratulations on the film.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 1, "text": "Your character Rose starts as incredibly capable. And as her situation changes and she goes to the ranch and feels isolated and alone and ridiculed, she becomes profoundly depressed. Did you behave differently when you were on set but not on camera - you know, when you're just, like, waiting to be called - when you were capable - when your character was capable versus when your character was depressed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 2, "text": "The movie made me think, among other things, about what marriage was like then for a lot of people. I mean, Jesse Plemons' character proposes to you because, you know, you seem like a very nice, very decent, very caring individual. And he kind of needs a wife. And you enthusiastically say yes because you're a widow or you're on your own basically in the middle of nowhere, and you could really use a husband. And I mean, you have feelings for each other. But it's not like it is now, where you really get to know a person beforehand and maybe you move in together", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But Benedict and I - we didn't talk on set, which - it was helpful. We didn't have many scenes together. But it was just - I think those things that are helpful for him as an actor also helped set -"}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 3, "text": "before you actually get married. So it made me think about that distance between many people as they're getting married. But it also made me think about how well you know Jesse Plemons and how well he knows you because you actually are married. And you're playing these two people who are very careful around each other because you hardly know each other.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But Benedict and I - we didn't talk on set, which - it was helpful. We didn't have many scenes together. But it was just - I think those things that are helpful for him as an actor also helped set -"}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 4, "text": "Oh, of course. Yes. Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, for me, that - what they recognize immediately in their souls as characters is that they both have such a deep loneliness. And there's kindness there that - you know - yeah. But it's - you know, "}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 5, "text": "Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And she's a - and yeah, all of those things. And in terms of Jesse's and my relationship, it was - yeah, it's funny to have a child together and then be so proper and reserved with each other wi"}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 6, "text": "Is it ever strange to see somebody you know so well be somebody else, you know, like when they're in character?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we fell in love creatively first, I think, in \"Fargo.\" We just immediately clicked in the way we approach things and don't judge each other - and not in it for anything but trying to create the "}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 7, "text": "A lot of people want to work with Jane Campion, which, of course, you got to do when she directed you in \"The Power Of The Dog.\" Is there something special about her directing technique that you can talk about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Again, George and Rose - like, we have such limited scenes together. And a lot was cut out, too. I think in the edit, when I first watched \"The Power Of The Dog,\" I was surprised at how, like, economi"}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 8, "text": "That's really interesting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". She's actually a really good actress, which is very funny. When we were improvising and, like, the old lady and the old gent - when they weren't, you know, there to rehearse in the scenes and things"}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 9, "text": "So one of the things your character has to do is play piano badly. Your character tells Jesse Plemons' character that she used to play for silent movies. And so once they get married and they move into the big home that he and his brother own, he wants to impress the governor when the governor comes over to dinner. This is a well-to-do ranch. So he actually buys you a piano and you keep telling him, no, I really don't play very well. And he thinks you're just being, you know, kind of shy and modest. But you really don't play very well", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So that's something that - it's almost like when you have a stage mom and they're, like, mouthing the words to you when you're up on stage. It's a little bit like that. Like, she's, like, so in the sc"}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So that's something that - it's almost like when you have a stage mom and they're, like, mouthing the words to you when you're up on stage. It's a little bit like that. Like, she's, like, so in the sc"}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 11, "text": "But I read that you actually did your own piano playing, but you don't know how to play piano. So you had to learn how to play badly", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I think - well, listen, I think whatever's happening in the house is really making her feel so insecure about even, like, working on her stuff. It's like when you have - when you're under a microsco"}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I think - well, listen, I think whatever's happening in the house is really making her feel so insecure about even, like, working on her stuff. It's like when you have - when you're under a microsco"}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 13, "text": "I did as a child. You know, very mediocrely. I was just, like, your average kid who took piano lessons and didn't play very well. But I did sometimes have to play in front of the auditorium. Me and my best friend sometimes, like, on Arbor Day, we had to play a couple of tree songs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I just learned how to play. And then, you know, played it badly for the scene. Because I learned the piece that I had to learn for the film - two pieces. One got cut out. But, yeah, I played - I"}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 14, "text": "It sounds really sad. And I'd get so nervous and so uncomfortable and always feel like I was going to blow it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I just learned how to play. And then, you know, played it badly for the scene. Because I learned the piece that I had to learn for the film - two pieces. One got cut out. But, yeah, I played - I"}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 15, "text": "Right. No, I actually know what you mean. You know, with the piano, I have to say, the piece that you play in it - I don't like the piece. And I wonder if you like it, because to spend so much time learning how to play a piece that you don't like would be really rough.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's a lot of pressure to be on stage. And it's not for me either. I - like, my worst - I hate going up on stage and speaking and things like that. Like, Jane actually gave me good advice. She t"}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 16, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Kirsten Dunst. She's one of the stars of the new film \"The Power Of The Dog.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, no. I - yeah, it was - you know what helped me? I had a really cool piano teacher. He works with Julian Casablancas, and he's in his band. And so his name's Jeff Kite. And he was - just like hav"}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Kirsten Dunst, one of the stars of the new film \"The Power Of The Dog.\" Your character in \"The Power Of The Dog\" gets very depressed and turns to alcohol. And it's not the first time you've played a very depressed character. Your character in \"Melancholia,\" as the title implies, was very depressed and so is the world because there was - was it a planet heading toward Earth that might end life as we know it or a meteor, a planet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, no. I - yeah, it was - you know what helped me? I had a really cool piano teacher. He works with Julian Casablancas, and he's in his band. And so his name's Jeff Kite. And he was - just like hav"}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 18, "text": "Yeah, it's a beautiful film. I love that film, though it's been a few years since I saw it. But, you know, you've publicly stated that you've had to deal with depression and that you want to mention it because a lot of people think that it's, like, a personal flaw or that they shouldn't go get treatment for it. And you want to encourage people, like, it's nothing to be ashamed of and seek treatment. To the extent that you're comfortable talking about this, can I ask you how you recognized that what you were dealing with wasn't, like, sadness or just, like, you know, insecurity or something - that it was depression?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes, planets were going to collide."}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is Lars von Trier, the director.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think - I mean, I feel like there's a lot of different levels of depression. And I think when you're 27 and you're an artist, it's an age where a lot of people kind of - I think something happens wh"}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 20, "text": "You said that when you were making \"Melancholia,\" you were able to access feelings of depression from earlier when you had had depression. Can you talk a little bit about what you were able to understand that you might not have understood had you not dealt with it yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yes."}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 21, "text": "Did you go through a period of, like, not feeling things?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, it's interesting the way - there's a few things that are coming to my mind. Like, just the incapability to, like, bathe yourself is something that I think is a very vulnerable thing that"}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 22, "text": "So when you're going through that, does it help to say, but I'm an acclaimed actress. I've been in movies.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mine, I feel like - I feel like it took on a lot of different things. But I honestly was mostly, like - and I'm sure - you know, I know that other people have experienced this, too, is like - just, li"}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 23, "text": "People say I'm beautiful. Yeah, not at all?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 24, "text": "So you said it was exhilarating. Maybe exhilarating wasn't the word that you used, but you liked playing the depressed character in \"Melancholia.\" I take that to mean it wasn't, like, triggering in any way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "? You know what I mean? Like, you're hurt about it. It's not really - you know, there's no room to express that either, you know, of, like, feeling, like, that disappointment within your community kin"}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Kirsten Dunst, and she's one of the stars of the new film \"The Power Of The Dog.\" We'll talk more after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "making that film, you know? I really did. I had so much fun. So if - if it's in your wheelhouse and you're a sensitive person and you're - I'm kind of like a little bit, I feel like, I'm ready to go. "}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Kirsten Dunst. She stars with her husband, Jesse Plemons, and Benedict Cumberbatch in the new film \"The Power Of The Dog.\" Her other films include \"The Virgin Suicides,\" \"Marie Antoinette,\" \"Melancholia,\" \"Bring It On\" and the first three \"Spider-Man\" movies. Can I ask how you first met your husband, Jesse Plemons, with whom you star in \"The Power Of The Dog\" and with whom you starred in a season of \"Fargo\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "making that film, you know? I really did. I had so much fun. So if - if it's in your wheelhouse and you're a sensitive person and you're - I'm kind of like a little bit, I feel like, I'm ready to go. "}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 27, "text": "So how did you meet at the airport? Were you just both there, or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just knew that, like, working with someone that smoked - and I was just like, oh, God, please don't become a smoker again on this show. But, yeah, I remember seeing his eyes and our eyes meeting, an"}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 28, "text": "Oh, I see.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We were both flying to Calgary to shoot the show."}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 29, "text": "I see. Did you sit next to each other?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So we were on the same flight."}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 30, "text": "Is he still smoking?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 31, "text": "Good. And you didn't start because you were around him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, we're not. No."}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 32, "text": "Oh, that's hard. That's really hard.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 33, "text": "How did you both stop?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's like, you can only go to the bathroom really to, like, not be around people. It's just - so smoking on set becomes kind of, like, a break from everybody."}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 34, "text": "Oh, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Children."}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 35, "text": "Your husband, Jesse Plemons - I read that he described his father as a cowboy who rides and ropes. You're from New Jersey. So you're from New Jersey, but you're in this, like, 1925 small-town Montana setting. He's a rancher and rides a horse and actually knew something about that life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 36, "text": "I know you work with your dreams as one of your tools for acting, as - for insight into acting. Can you explain, like, how that works and how you manage to dream enough and remember the dreams for them to be helpful?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "and try to teach me how to rope a chair. But, yes, Jesse's father is a real cowboy, and a liberal cowboy at that, which is impressive."}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 37, "text": "Do you feel like your dreaming mind actually picks up on that? Is it helpful to write it down? - because you're saying, here, brain, here, dreaming self; this is what I want to know about. Tell me something. But your dreaming self might not pay any attention to that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I write myself a note before I go to sleep on what I want to understand about who I'm playing. And if I don't dream that night, I'll just rewrite it again the next night until I do get a dream. And, l"}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 38, "text": "You started working when you were how old? Was it 3? Do I have that right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, sometimes I've had no dreams and then, you know, I have found another method. Like, OK, you know that already. You don't need to find that out. Like, what do you think it - like, you don't need "}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 39, "text": "What were you modeling?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm from New Jersey, and we'd drive into New York and I'd start - I did little kid modeling at 3."}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 40, "text": "Whose idea was it that you should become a model at age 3?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like, clothes and things like that. Just - I was a Ford model for their baby division, and I would just, you know, do catalog shoots or, like, a Dillard's campaign and things like that or Macy's. You "}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 41, "text": "I think you were 8 when you were in \"Bonfire Of The Vanities\" with Tom Hanks and 11 - \"Interview With The Vampire\" with Brad Pitt and Tom Cruise. I mean, these are big movies. Did you get good advice from the adults you were working with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "about it, I guess. I don't know. I think also that attention as a mother is probably - you know, if people are always saying how, like, cute your kid is, you kind of feel maybe the pressure to do some"}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 42, "text": "Are there, like, gender differences in how you were treated or what the atmosphere was like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, on \"Interview With The Vampire,\" I was treated like a little princess. Tom and Brad, they were just so lovely to me. And everyone protected me on that set, and I felt very safe. And then after t"}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 43, "text": "What do you think he meant by girly girl when he called you that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And he was like, I'm so sorry. But yeah, I didn't really feel that way, I think, until I entered my late teens, you know, where it felt a little bit more like that. But also, I was playing, you know"}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 44, "text": "So let me introduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Kirsten Dunst. She's one of the stars of the new film \"The Power Of The Dog.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think, you know, I was the only girl on the set. It was just like - it felt dismissive. It felt a little, you know, like - I don't know. It just felt like, yeah, a little bit like dismissive and dis"}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 45, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Kirsten Dunst, one of the stars of the new film \"The Power Of The Dog.\" When you were 16, you worked with Sofia Coppola for the first time, and it was her first outing as a director. This is on the film \"Virgin Suicides.\" What did it mean to you to have a young woman directing you? And you were still getting your footing in the industry, but you'd been in it since you were a child, and she was born into the industry. But this was something brand-new for her, directing. So how did you connect with each other?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think, you know, I was the only girl on the set. It was just like - it felt dismissive. It felt a little, you know, like - I don't know. It just felt like, yeah, a little bit like dismissive and dis"}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 46, "text": "Like your teeth. Tell us the teeth story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sofia was always, to me, when I was younger, an older sister that I looked up to and somebody who I really admired because, again, I was getting these lessons on \"Virgin Suicides\" that I realized late"}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 47, "text": "My understanding of the story is that the producer drove you to the dentist without telling you what this was about, then told you you were going to get your teeth fixed and you didn't get out of the car and said that you weren't going to do it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And Sofia always - she loves my teeth so much. She's like, don't ever fix your teeth. And when she - one of her daughters has a little bit of teeth like mine, too. She just loves crooked teeth. And, y"}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 48, "text": "Oh, OK. But how did you summon up the courage to say no to the producer of this blockbuster movie you were about to be in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She did it very subtly."}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 49, "text": "What's your reaction to that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "? I don't know. I think I just was like, OK. So I went to her fancy Beverly Hills doctor, and then they suggested it there. And it was kind of like a suggestion, I think, you know, based on, you know,"}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 50, "text": "Let me make a counterargument, which is instead of getting airbrushed in photographs - well, people are still getting Photoshop, but also, people are having work done. So, like, you don't even need to be airbrushed because a surgeon airbrushed you already.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "at first. And I was like, oh, they fixed my teeth. And I was like, whatever. I mean, it just - it didn't surprise me. It just didn't surprise me. That's all. Just, like, that was more of an airbrushin"}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 51, "text": "Why do you say that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, no. I know. It's all because of these Instagram filters. People want to then look like a filter in real life, which - it's very depressing. I'm happy I don't have two little girls right now, to "}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 52, "text": "Yeah. It seems like if your face gets really tight from having work done, it's hard to have those facial expressions that you'd want to have to evoke feeling and emotion.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because the real actresses, like, that are - I don't know. The ones that I look up to - they don't look crazy, and they can move their faces. I mean, look at Frances McDormand. Like, all the - you kno"}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 53, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Expression."}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 54, "text": "Yeah, to act - right, exactly, exactly. So what are some of the movies that have had the biggest influence on you either as an actor or just as a viewer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To act."}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 55, "text": "\"Who's Afraid Of Virginia Woolf?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I feel like when I was educating myself in film and watching movies like the Criterion Collection type of films - you know, I started in my teenage years watching those movies. And the first - I remem"}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 56, "text": "And why did you watch it for this movie?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That was the first time I saw it - was for this movie, actually."}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 57, "text": "Oh, oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was drunk, and she was really good at it."}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 58, "text": "This is Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor, who were...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think so. I read a lot about it. It's very fun history on that film. Yeah, they were just - because they were together. They were, like, having fun with their friends, and they were like, OK, now le"}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 59, "text": "...Married at the time, just as like you were married to Jesse Plemons. But you guys didn't go and get drunk.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Richard Burton and Elizabeth Taylor. Yeah."}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 60, "text": "One last question. Does your mother feel like she was really, like, a prophet or a genius in getting you into, you know, modeling when you were 3 and then leading the way toward acting? I mean, you've really found a home in that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We didn't get boozy lunches before work."}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 61, "text": "Oh, sure. Well, it's been great to talk with you again. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They're dying to take our son out, like, sneakily to, like, audition for - just because they have that in them. They've got it in them, the - it's really funny. But, yes, Jesse and I were both child a"}
{"id": "1069915927", "date": "2022-01-03", "guest": "Kirsten Dunst", "title": "For Kirsten Dunst, 'The Power of the Dog' is a cinematic love letter to her children", "question_index": 62, "text": "Kirsten Dunst is one of the stars of the new film \"The Power Of The Dog,\" which is streaming on Netflix. After we take a short break, our TV critic David Bianculli will review the new series \"The Book Of Boba Fett.\" It's a spinoff of the \"Star Wars\" series \"The Mandalorian.\" It's streaming on Disney+. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "1070577376", "date": "2022-01-05", "guest": "Edward O Wilson", "title": "Remembering Edward O. Wilson, a conservation advocate who studied ant colonies", "question_index": 0, "text": "In your new book \"Journey To The Ants,\" you have these fantastic blown-up photographs of ants. This is how ants look, I guess, under a microscope, you know, if you enlarge them thousands of times. And in these enlarged photographs, the ants look a lot, to me anyways, like dinosaurs. They have dinosaur-type faces, and their little antennae look like horns coming out of the head. They look quite prehistoric to me. And in fact, the ants date back to the dinosaur era. So is that why they look the way they do?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Edward O. Wilson, a pioneer in the field of evolutionary biology and a staunch conservation advocate, died Sunday in Burlington, Mass., the day after Christmas. He was 92. Wilson di"}
{"id": "1070577376", "date": "2022-01-05", "guest": "Edward O Wilson", "title": "Remembering Edward O. Wilson, a conservation advocate who studied ant colonies", "question_index": 1, "text": "You did an experiment on the chemical an ant gives off when the ant has died that communicates to the other ants that the ant is dead and needs to be carried out of the ant nest. Tell us about the experiment.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, not just - it's not their great age, I think it's the fact that they have external skeletons. We are typical mammals in that we have an internal skeleton, and our tissues right out to our thin, "}
{"id": "1070577376", "date": "2022-01-05", "guest": "Edward O Wilson", "title": "Remembering Edward O. Wilson, a conservation advocate who studied ant colonies", "question_index": 2, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When an ant dies, it - just like any other dead thing, it crumples up. It may be lying on its back, but it's not noticed by the other ants rushing by it inside the nest as we would notice it because w"}
{"id": "1070577376", "date": "2022-01-05", "guest": "Edward O Wilson", "title": "Remembering Edward O. Wilson, a conservation advocate who studied ant colonies", "question_index": 3, "text": "Were you able to analyze whether the living dead ants could do anything to protest being carried off?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I tried them one after the other on ants that I had in the laboratory and finally hit upon the astonishing discovery that, indeed, ants identify a corpse with oleic acid. When you dob oleic acid, "}
{"id": "1070577376", "date": "2022-01-05", "guest": "Edward O Wilson", "title": "Remembering Edward O. Wilson, a conservation advocate who studied ant colonies", "question_index": 4, "text": "What would happen to the world if all the ants were to magically disappear?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nothing whatsoever because, you see, there's nothing in the natural world that adds something like oleic acid to the body of ants. And ants are magnificently programmed to do certain things with great"}
{"id": "1070924133", "date": "2022-01-06", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Dan Bongino is building a right-wing media infrastructure in time for 2024", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. One of the most popular right-wing talk show hosts and podcasters, Dan Bongino, does more than talk. He's trying to build a right-wing media infrastructure in time for the 2024 elections. My guest, Evan Osnos, profiles Bongino in the current issue of The New Yorker. He writes, because Bongino has emerged so fast and because so much of his activity occurs away from mainstream media, few Democrats have noticed he exists. Bongino's hosting career started with a fledgling podcast recorded from his basement. Now he has a syndicated radio show in the timeslot Rush Limbaugh used to have that has 8 1/2 million radio listeners a week, making him the fourth-most-listened-to radio host in America. For his first broadcast in that timeslot, his guest was former President Trump. Bongino also hosts a weekend show on Fox News. Before his media career, he spent four years in the NYPD and 12 in the Secret Service, where he worked with President George W. Bush, Senate candidate Hillary Clinton and President Obama. Evan Osnos is a staff writer at The New Yorker. He's the author of a book about Joe Biden. His latest book is called \"Wildland: The Making Of America's Fury.\" It's about how America became so divided and why there's so much rage and fear. We recorded our interview yesterday. Evan Osnos, welcome back to FRESH AIR. So as I've mentioned, we're recording this on Wednesday, January 5. So as we record, we don't know what is happening on January 6 or what will happen later on January 6. But you write, spend several months immersed in American talk radio and you'll come away with the sense that the violence of January 6 was not the end of something, but the beginning. Some of Trump's most influential champions are preparing the ground for his return, and they dominate a media terrain that attracts little attention from their opponents. So what are some of the things that you heard that led you to the conclusion that January 6, 2021, wasn't the end of something, it was the start of something?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1070924133", "date": "2022-01-06", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Dan Bongino is building a right-wing media infrastructure in time for 2024", "question_index": 1, "text": "Of all the people in right-wing media that you could have profiled, why did you choose Dan Bongino?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the fundamental takeaway that you get when you listen to months of this material is that the language, the octave, the register is of total existential showdown, meaning it's about life or dea"}
{"id": "1070924133", "date": "2022-01-06", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Dan Bongino is building a right-wing media infrastructure in time for 2024", "question_index": 2, "text": "You describe Bongino as having profited more from the Trump era than anyone else in the media. How?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In a way, he was the right person to talk about simply because so many people don't know about him. He occupies this place that is just off stage, I think, from what particularly Democrats and liberal"}
{"id": "1070924133", "date": "2022-01-06", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Dan Bongino is building a right-wing media infrastructure in time for 2024", "question_index": 3, "text": "He did a recent video that had 6 million views. What was that video?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, to put it in clear terms, five or six years ago, he was starting a podcast in his basement, and he was putting moving blankets on the wall as a kind of homespun studio. He had tried to g"}
{"id": "1070924133", "date": "2022-01-06", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Dan Bongino is building a right-wing media infrastructure in time for 2024", "question_index": 4, "text": "Does Bongino imply that the revolt should be a physical revolt, like another storming of the Capitol or of another - of a place with symbolic value or that people should be armed and ready to fight?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That video, which he posted this fall, was in some ways typical of what he does every day, and it was also memorable simply because it was so stark. You know, he was sitting wearing a T-shirt from one"}
{"id": "1070924133", "date": "2022-01-06", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Dan Bongino is building a right-wing media infrastructure in time for 2024", "question_index": 5, "text": "Considering that Bongino is issuing calls to action about, like, massive boycotts against mandatory vaccines if the federal government decides to mandate them for private corporations and, you know, he's urging his listeners all the time to, like, take action. He has ads for guns on his show. The line seems a little gray, although, you know, he advocates against violence. But he uses the language of war in his rhetoric. What are some of your concerns about that - you know, even though he doesn't call for violent action?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, Bongino is very clear. He is - he draws a distinction between physical violence and the language of war and confrontation and conflict. He condemns violence. He says that it's actually the other s"}
{"id": "1070924133", "date": "2022-01-06", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Dan Bongino is building a right-wing media infrastructure in time for 2024", "question_index": 6, "text": "Well, why don't we take a short break here? If you're just joining us, my guest is Evan Osnos. He's a staff writer at The New Yorker. He profiles Dan Bongino in the current issue of The New Yorker. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Yeah, he condemned the violence of January 6. And I think that there this environment in which there are some people who begin to lose some of that distinction. There was a very telling moment "}
{"id": "1070924133", "date": "2022-01-06", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Dan Bongino is building a right-wing media infrastructure in time for 2024", "question_index": 7, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Evan Osnos, who profiles right-wing talk show host Dan Bongino in the current issue of The New Yorker. Bongino is also helping to create and fund right-wing alternatives to YouTube and social media, alternatives he says are immune to cancel culture. Osnos is a staff writer at The New Yorker. You describe Bongino as trying to build a right-wing media infrastructure in time for the 2024 elections. So what is the right-wing media structure he's creating that you refer to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Yeah, he condemned the violence of January 6. And I think that there this environment in which there are some people who begin to lose some of that distinction. There was a very telling moment "}
{"id": "1070924133", "date": "2022-01-06", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Dan Bongino is building a right-wing media infrastructure in time for 2024", "question_index": 8, "text": "So AlignPay, for example, is like a right-wing alternative to PayPal and self-described as payment technologies engineered to cancel cancel culture.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In a way, he's trying to replicate YouTube and Twitter and, to some degree, Facebook on terms that conservatives can control. So as we all know, over the last couple of years, there have been many exa"}
{"id": "1070924133", "date": "2022-01-06", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Dan Bongino is building a right-wing media infrastructure in time for 2024", "question_index": 9, "text": "Rumble is designed to be an alternative to YouTube, and that's self-described as, we create technologies that are immune to cancel culture. What is Rumble like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Part of this is an outgrowth of the experience of January 6, in which PayPal and other payment processors were pressured to prevent organizers from being able to use their services to do things like -"}
{"id": "1070924133", "date": "2022-01-06", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Dan Bongino is building a right-wing media infrastructure in time for 2024", "question_index": 10, "text": "And another difference between Rumble and YouTube, this morning - and this is Wednesday morning as we're recording this - the homepage had, like, a Fox News video on it prominently featured.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Rumble looks more or less like a clone of YouTube. And - but it has this very distinct difference, which is they make no effort to police their content for things that YouTube would describe as medica"}
{"id": "1070924133", "date": "2022-01-06", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Dan Bongino is building a right-wing media infrastructure in time for 2024", "question_index": 11, "text": "Let's hear how Dan Bongino described this alternate media on his podcast Monday of this week.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's this very symbiotic relationship with the original traditional conservative media infrastructure. You know, the goal is to say that, over time, only more and more pressure is going to come "}
{"id": "1070924133", "date": "2022-01-06", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Dan Bongino is building a right-wing media infrastructure in time for 2024", "question_index": 12, "text": "OK, so Parler is a right-wing social media platform, and Truth Social is the platform that Trump has in the works that has not been launched yet. So when Dan Bongino's talking about the parallel economy and saying he's put his money where his mouth is, what is his financial investment in these alternate platforms that he is helping to build and that he's advocating for on his show?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Folks, on a very serious note, we are in a war right now for free speech, and it's time everybody understood the battles - the terrain features of the battlefield here. It's tough for me to talk about"}
{"id": "1070924133", "date": "2022-01-06", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Dan Bongino is building a right-wing media infrastructure in time for 2024", "question_index": 13, "text": "What is his connection or what has his connection been in the past to the social media platform that Trump is trying to launch, Truth Social, which Bongino referred to in the clip that we just heard?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's not entirely clear how much money he's put into these businesses. You know, he talks about himself sometimes as an investor or a promoter. You know, he has very clearly associated himself with th"}
{"id": "1070924133", "date": "2022-01-06", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Dan Bongino is building a right-wing media infrastructure in time for 2024", "question_index": 14, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is New Yorker staff writer Evan Osnos. He profiles Dan Bongino in the current issue of The New Yorker. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He and Trump, of course, have this very distinct personal relationship. Trump was - has been a guest on his show, and Bongino has praised him in the past, and Trump has tweeted about Bongino's books a"}
{"id": "1070924133", "date": "2022-01-06", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Dan Bongino is building a right-wing media infrastructure in time for 2024", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Evan Osnos, who profiles right-wing talk show host Dan Bongino in the current issue of The New Yorker. Bongino has also helped to create or fund right-wing alternatives to YouTube, PayPal and social media, alternatives, he says, are immune to cancel culture. Osnos is a staff writer at The New Yorker. What was Dan Bongino's reaction when he found out you were profiling him for The New Yorker and that you wanted to interview him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He and Trump, of course, have this very distinct personal relationship. Trump was - has been a guest on his show, and Bongino has praised him in the past, and Trump has tweeted about Bongino's books a"}
{"id": "1070924133", "date": "2022-01-06", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Dan Bongino is building a right-wing media infrastructure in time for 2024", "question_index": 16, "text": "Do you think he interprets the article, the profile, as an act of warfare?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was not happy about it, actually. I mean, he had this unusual suggestion. He said, I won't see you. I won't meet with you. I will talk to you on the phone. We'll have interviews. He was kind of hos"}
{"id": "1070924133", "date": "2022-01-06", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Dan Bongino is building a right-wing media infrastructure in time for 2024", "question_index": 17, "text": "So you did get to interview Bongino but not in person. So what was that conversation like? Was he comfortable answering your questions and amenable to doing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think he thinks of media and politics, fundamentally, all of it, as an arena of combat. So yeah, I think he received it, essentially, as an act of warfare. And from his perspective, that's actually "}
{"id": "1070924133", "date": "2022-01-06", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Dan Bongino is building a right-wing media infrastructure in time for 2024", "question_index": 18, "text": "I don't know if this is relevant here or not. But you had asked him if you weren't a political commentator, if you weren't in the media, what might you be doing? And tell us what his answer was.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "At times, he was. He was OK with talking about the business of building this alternative media infrastructure. And then at other times, he would get very hostile. I mean, he would say to me - what are"}
{"id": "1070924133", "date": "2022-01-06", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Dan Bongino is building a right-wing media infrastructure in time for 2024", "question_index": 19, "text": "He has vehemently opposed masks and mandated vaccines on his podcast and radio show. Can you talk a little bit about the language that he uses in opposing masks and mandatory vaccines?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he said he'd be a mixed martial artist, I mean, essentially doing the thing that you see on the Ultimate Fighting Championship. And, you know, it's not abstract. I mean, he - when he broadcasts,"}
{"id": "1070924133", "date": "2022-01-06", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Dan Bongino is building a right-wing media infrastructure in time for 2024", "question_index": 20, "text": "Bongino had a big fight with Cumulus Media, which is the media company that syndicates his radio show. It owns the network that his show is on. And this fight was over Bongino's threat to leave the company if it continued to require employees to get vaccinated. And Bongino said, I don't believe this is based on any science. It's antithetical to everything I believe in. How did that fight end between Bongino and Cumulus Media?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He calls masks face diapers or COVID burqas. I mean, it's for him a sort of source of great fun, to talk about masks as being an overreaction by liberals and Democrats. That's how he frames it. "}
{"id": "1070924133", "date": "2022-01-06", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Dan Bongino is building a right-wing media infrastructure in time for 2024", "question_index": 21, "text": "Now, he has been vaccinated himself. So why was he vaccinated? And how does he square that with his opposition to mandated vaccines?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It didn't end as he would've wanted. He went on hiatus for a couple of weeks. And, you know, I think the goal in a moment like that is you hope you can whip up a sort of public reaction, that your fan"}
{"id": "1070924133", "date": "2022-01-06", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Dan Bongino is building a right-wing media infrastructure in time for 2024", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Evan Osnos, who profiles right-wing talk show host Dan Bongino in the current issue of The New Yorker. Bongino has also helped to create or fund right-wing alternatives to YouTube, PayPal and social media, alternatives, he says, are immune to cancel culture. Evan Osnos is a staff writer at The New Yorker. Before entering the media world, Bongino worked for four years with the NYPD and then for 12 years at the Secret Service. And in the Secret Service, he was on the detail for President George W. Bush, for Senate candidate Hillary Clinton and President Obama. What was his reputation within the Secret Service at the time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is New Yorker staff writer Evan Osnos. He profiles Dan Bongino in the current issue of The New Yorker. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AI"}
{"id": "1070924133", "date": "2022-01-06", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Dan Bongino is building a right-wing media infrastructure in time for 2024", "question_index": 23, "text": "After Bongino got involved with the media, he said about Obama that he was the most corrupt president in U.S. history, whereas earlier he'd said he was, you know, wonderful father, a wonderful man, very nice and very kind to me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, he's known as in a sort of ordinary way as a capable, competent, pretty good Secret Service agent, actually. People thought that he was well-liked by those below him and those above him. And curio"}
{"id": "1070924133", "date": "2022-01-06", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Dan Bongino is building a right-wing media infrastructure in time for 2024", "question_index": 24, "text": "And you write that Alex Jones, who's a conspiracy theorist, portrayed Bongino as a defector from the White House. They're so scared of him and what he knows. And then Bongino could play the role of a reluctant-but-brave truth teller, saying America was manipulated by a tyrannical group of insiders.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He's been a very quick study in the language of particularly the sort of far-right wing of the American media world, places like Alex Jones' Infowars. You know, that was one of the first places "}
{"id": "1070924133", "date": "2022-01-06", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Dan Bongino is building a right-wing media infrastructure in time for 2024", "question_index": 25, "text": "In 2018, Bongino got a show on the NRA's web TV channel, NRATV. It shut down the following year. But did that show help him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It really is a kind of theater, and I'm struck by it as I sort of listened to it and went back and watched his appearances over so many years, that he was creating this sense of privileged knowledge. "}
{"id": "1070924133", "date": "2022-01-06", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Dan Bongino is building a right-wing media infrastructure in time for 2024", "question_index": 26, "text": "You know, we've mentioned that he started off as a podcaster in his basement. Now he has a very popular radio show. He has influence on social media platforms, has a very large following. How did he build that following from his days podcasting from his basement? Like, what are some of the strategic things that he did, because you can have a podcast and you can have a presence on Twitter and Facebook and still have nobody paying attention to you? Like, you really have to amplify what you're saying on all of those platforms in a very effective way. You have to be smart and strategic to do that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It did. It established him in the world of guns as somebody who is speaking for, quote-unquote, \"the community,\" meaning that, you know, he had a show in which he was essentially the gateway between p"}
{"id": "1070924133", "date": "2022-01-06", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Dan Bongino is building a right-wing media infrastructure in time for 2024", "question_index": 27, "text": "Do you think Bongino represents a new generation in right-wing media compared to, say, Rush Limbaugh or Matt Drudge?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He did a couple of things that I think were very important. One was that his background in law enforcement gave him a bit of a supercharged identity. When he would come on as a guest, for instan"}
{"id": "1070924133", "date": "2022-01-06", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Dan Bongino is building a right-wing media infrastructure in time for 2024", "question_index": 28, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. My guest is New Yorker staff writer Evan Osnos. He profiles right-wing talk show host and social media activist Dan Bongino in the current issue of The New Yorker. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. This is a really important moment in the sort of transformation of conservative media because for a long time, there were these huge powers. There was Fox News. There was Rush Limbaugh. And ther"}
{"id": "1070924133", "date": "2022-01-06", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Dan Bongino is building a right-wing media infrastructure in time for 2024", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Evan Osnos, who profiles right-wing talk show host Dan Bongino in the current issue of The New Yorker. Bongino has also helped to create or fund right-wing alternatives to YouTube, PayPal and social media, alternatives, he says, are immune to cancel culture. Osnos is a staff writer at The New Yorker. To have alternative media and advocate, like, a parallel economy, as Bongino does, you kind of need alternative sponsors. Like, who are some of the sponsors of his show on his podcast?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. This is a really important moment in the sort of transformation of conservative media because for a long time, there were these huge powers. There was Fox News. There was Rush Limbaugh. And ther"}
{"id": "1070924133", "date": "2022-01-06", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Dan Bongino is building a right-wing media infrastructure in time for 2024", "question_index": 30, "text": "Do you think that Dan Bongino has a counterpart on the left?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he has a lot of gun-related advertising, so places that are selling shotguns or selling AR-15s or holsters, for instance or survivalist rations - as he put it, you know, they will be delivered u"}
{"id": "1070924133", "date": "2022-01-06", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Dan Bongino is building a right-wing media infrastructure in time for 2024", "question_index": 31, "text": "What role do you see right-wing media playing in the next presidential election?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Look; the simple fact is there is no natural analog to Dan Bongino on the left simply because you don't have people on the left today saying that the election of 2020 was rigged, despite the fact that"}
{"id": "1070924133", "date": "2022-01-06", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Dan Bongino is building a right-wing media infrastructure in time for 2024", "question_index": 32, "text": "How do you see this profile of Dan Bongino as a relating to your latest book, \"Wildland: The Making of America's Fury,\" which is about how America became so divided and why there's so much rage and fear?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They already are playing a role in a fascinating way. I mean, if you listen to his show over the course of the last several months, he very often will bring up the subject of 2024 in a couple of ways."}
{"id": "1070924133", "date": "2022-01-06", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Dan Bongino is building a right-wing media infrastructure in time for 2024", "question_index": 33, "text": "What has it been like for you to listen to so much right-wing media in the past few months as you were researching this piece?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think Bongino is a creature of that period that I'm describing, you know, almost right down to the fact that he came up through the NRA television world. I mean, there is this phenomenon I describe "}
{"id": "1070924133", "date": "2022-01-06", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Dan Bongino is building a right-wing media infrastructure in time for 2024", "question_index": 34, "text": "Evan Osnos, it's always great to talk with you. Thanks for coming back to our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's been alarming, to be perfectly honest, Terry. I think - I write about politics for a living. I know how toxic some of our politics have become. And I think, like a lot of people, I'm sort of eage"}
{"id": "1070924133", "date": "2022-01-06", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How Dan Bongino is building a right-wing media infrastructure in time for 2024", "question_index": 35, "text": "Evan Osnos is a staff writer at The New Yorker. His profile of Dan Bongino is in the current issue. Osnos's latest book is titled \"Wildland: The Making Of America's Fury.\" If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of interviews, including this week's with Congressman Jamie Raskin, who's written a new memoir, actor Kirsten Dunst and journalist Christopher Mims, who's written a new book about the supply chain. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Kayla Lattimore. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Therese Madden directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My pleasure. Thanks, Terry."}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 0, "text": "You wrote an essay in the 1960s in which you were talking about your approach as a reporter, and you said, my only advantage as a reporter is that I am so physically small, so temperamentally unobtrusive, so neurotically inarticulate that people tend to forget that my presence runs counter to their best interests. Does that still describe you as a reporter?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University in New Jersey, in for Terry Gross. We're going to listen back to portions of two of our interviews with jour"}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 1, "text": "Do you think that being small and physically unobtrusive makes people more...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. I'm not a good interviewer, and I'm not very aggressive in a situation. I tend to just kind of have to hang around the edges of it and see what's going on."}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 2, "text": "...Less wary of you, less suspicious?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Less."}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 3, "text": "Do you exploit that in any way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Less wary. They think that I am not a threat to anyone."}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 4, "text": "In another essay in your book \"The White Album,\" you described yourself as a woman who feels radically separated from the ideas that interest other people. You wrote that you felt like a sleepwalker moving through the world, unconscious of the moment's high issues, alert only to the stuff of bad dreams, and that acquaintances would read The New York Times and try to tell you the news, but you wouldn't read the newspapers yourself. I wonder if that's changed at all, especially as you've done...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I mean, since it - but I wouldn't say that I exploit it. In fact, I'm always pretty careful to - you know, as most reporters are - to go in with a notebook, to go in with a tape recorder, to go in m"}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 5, "text": "...More reporting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 6, "text": "How would you describe what you're trying to do in comparison with daily journalism in newspapers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I read the newspapers a lot, but I still - I mean, I read four or five newspapers a day, but I am still more interested in the - in what's not in the newspapers. I mean, it is kind of astonishing to m"}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 7, "text": "Reporting brings you face to face with the world in a way that writing fiction doesn't 'cause in fiction, you encounter the world in your imagination. In journalism, you have to actually physically be there, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what - I mean, what I do is just try to sort of go someplace and try to kind of put things together in a - just pull some threads together, rather than cover breaking events. I think it would be"}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 8, "text": "Is that one of the reasons why you write journalism, to kind of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah, it's kind of a help. I mean, it's a help to me to have - to be able to go out into the world."}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 9, "text": "...Get you out there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 10, "text": "You wrote in one of your essays that you had a nervous breakdown in 1968, and you even reprint some of what the doctor wrote about you. And he wrote that you had alienated yourself almost entirely from the world of human beings. I'm not sure what he meant by that. What did he mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's awful to get up every morning and not - and just have to make up the world all over again. I mean, it's very - some mornings you just don't feel like it."}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 11, "text": "In the sense that you're sitting home?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know what he meant. I was astonished by it. It was - I mean, it seemed to me a very odd report. I didn't actually have a breakdown. I had a - I - well, I had a - I mean, obviously I went to a "}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 12, "text": "You wrote once that whenever you walk into a room, a sentence goes through your head. It's a sentence that Jessica Mitford's governess used to tell her, and that is, remember, you're the least important person in this room, and don't forget it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You just have these imaginary playmates who you spend the day with. And once you're deeply into it, you kind of resent it when you have to go out and go out to dinner and talk to other people when you"}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 13, "text": "What a really self-effacing thing to be carrying around all the time", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well, why do you think of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is a - it is just what I think of when I walk into a room. It's not a - it's not necessarily a bad thing."}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 16, "text": "Were you brought up to be self-effacing...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's - I think actually that it's true. I mean, maybe all writers think that it's - or some writers think that it's so because you're focused on watching other people, rather than on their wat"}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 17, "text": "...Or to think of yourself as less important than others?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I don't..."}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 18, "text": "You suffer from migraine headaches, which leave you incapacitated for about three to five days a month. Are they connected to writing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, actually, my father was always telling me how important I was. And I - and he often has said to me that I have a deep-seated superiority complex, which may be true, but in a social situation, I te"}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 19, "text": "Because focusing on what you're writing enables you to block out all the other chaos of life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, they're connected to not writing. They're connected to - if I could connect them to any, you know, what they're connected to is some kind of chemical flaw or vascular hereditary thing. But what ac"}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 20, "text": "That's Joan Didion reading from her new memoir, \"The Year Of Magical Thinking.\" Joan Didion, welcome to FRESH AIR. And I just want to say at the top...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We sat down. My attention was on mixing the salad. John was talking, then he wasn't. At one point in the seconds or minute before he stopped talking, he had asked me if I'd used single malt scotch for"}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 21, "text": "...I'm very sorry about the loss of your husband and your daughter. This is a really beautifully written book, and I loved reading it. But I also hated reading it only in the sense that, you know, it makes me think not only of your losses, it makes me think of, you know, losses I may experience and losses - do you know? It's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 22, "text": "How do you think it affected your grieving to be chronicling it as it happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I had the sense when I was writing it that I wasn't writing it at all. It was like automatic writing, was a very different kind of process. It was simply very - everything that I - was on my"}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 23, "text": "After you called, you know, 911, it took about five minutes for them to come. What did...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was - it's the way I process everything is by writing it down. I don't actually process anything until I write it down, I mean, in terms of thinking, in terms of coming to terms with it. So i"}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 24, "text": "Yeah. What did you do in that five minutes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What did I do?"}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 25, "text": "Your book is called \"The Year Of Magical Thinking,\" and you realize at some point that you had been engaging in magical thinking that had to do with this genuine thought that maybe he'd come back so you shouldn't throw out his shoes in case he needs them when he comes back and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I kept trying to wake him up. I mean, I kept trying to lift him. I kept trying to - I don't remember. I mean, I kept - I don't remember what I did. I didn't do anything. I mean, there was nothing. I r"}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 26, "text": "Is there a point where you realized you stopped?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Maybe I could - if I did the right things, he would come back. You know, it's a form of - it's the way children think. A lot of people have told me that - who have lost a husband or child that "}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 27, "text": "You talk about how you didn't want to give away his shoes, for example, because if he came back, he'd needed them. Giving away clothes after someone dies is so hard. I mean, you have to decide with all their possessions, what are you going to keep? What are you going to give away to friends? What are you going to give to charity? What are you going to throw out? Was that a really horrible process?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was a point where I realized that I had been doing it. And yes, then I realized - then it gradually stopped. I don't think I'm doing it now."}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 28, "text": "How much had you talked about death with your husband? And did you have those conversations about what to do if the other dies and what you'd want for the survivor?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I haven't done it. I just left everything. After I discovered that I couldn't give away the shoes, I just closed that door. Now, I haven't had to move or repaint the apartment or do anything that requ"}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 29, "text": "I want to quote something you write in your memoir, \"The Year Of Magical Thinking.\" You write marriage is memory. Marriage is time. Marriage is not only time. It is also paradoxically the denial of time. For 40 years, I saw myself through John's eyes. I did not age. This year, for the first time since I was 29, I saw myself through the eyes of others. This year, for the first time since I was 29, I realized that my image of myself was of someone significantly younger.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he was always trying - he was always trying to have that conversation with me, and I would in many ways not have it because I thought it was - because it was - I see now it was threatening to me"}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 30, "text": "As writers, you both worked at home and you were with each other just about all the time. Did you have a sense of who you were outside of the marriage, who you were as a single Joan Didion, as opposed to a Joan Didion and John Gregory Dunne as a unit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 31, "text": "When you were younger, you mean.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not really, no. The family was my unit was kind of the way I - that was actually the way I wanted it. So, no, I - so it was kind of necessary to find my - you know, to refind myself. I hadn't particul"}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 32, "text": "Were there parts of yourself that you kind of relied on him to do? I mean - you know what I mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I was younger."}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 33, "text": "So how are you negotiating the world now that there isn't that baffle?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All parts. I mean, people often said that he finished sentences for me. Well, he did, which meant that I - I mean, I just relied on him. He was between me and the world. He not only answered the telep"}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 34, "text": "Are you comfortable being alone?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's like everything else. You learn to do it. I mean, I remember when I stopped smoking, it was very hard to know how to arrange me to walk around as an adult person because I had been smoking "}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 35, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I've always been comfortable being alone. So that is not the problem. Basically, one thing that everybody who has been in a close marriage and who is - everyone thinks when his or her spouse die"}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 36, "text": "Your husband died five days after your daughter had been hospitalized for pneumonia, and by the time he died, she had also gone into septic shock of basically...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli in for Terry Gross. We're listening back to our interviews with Joan Didion, who died last month at the age of 87. Terry spoke with Joan Didion in 2005 after the"}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 37, "text": "...A blood infection. So you were dealing - you had just gotten back from the hospital visiting her when he died.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Yeah."}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 38, "text": "She was in a coma.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We had been seeing her in the hospital, yet it could not be described as a visit, really, because she was unconscious."}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 39, "text": "Your daughter got out of the hospital. She had several major setbacks. But at the end of your memoir, you think that she's on the verge of really resuming her life. In August, after you'd finished your memoir, your daughter died. And this was about a year and a half after your husband's death. She was 39.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But - she was in an induced coma because she was on a ventilator. And they kept her under heavy sedation so that she wouldn't tear out the ventilator, which people tend to do when they find something "}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 40, "text": "You had just examined your grief over your husband so thoroughly in writing about it, and then it was time to grieve again. Now, with your husband, you understood the magical thinking that you were going through, this belief - this impossible belief that somehow he was going to come back, so you shouldn't even, like, throw out his clothes because he'd need them if he came back. Having examined your grief so carefully, were there little tricks that one plays on oneself when one's grieving that you couldn't even do anymore because you'd seen through it by writing your memoir?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Right."}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 41, "text": "For your daughter?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I didn't - you see, I haven't really started grieving yet."}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 42, "text": "You had to deal with one thing that is a very, I think, peculiar thing to have to deal with. When you're grieving for the loss of a child, you had to figure out, well, did you have to rewrite or update your book? You know, your memoir had just been sent in. Your daughter...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. I think I'm still in the shock phase. And right after John died, I had - there was a long period before I was able to grieve because I was focused entirely on getting Quintana well. And I think"}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 43, "text": "It never crossed...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It never crossed my..."}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 44, "text": "...Your mind to rewrite it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Never crossed my mind."}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 45, "text": "And why not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 46, "text": "Things like deaths and other tragedies tend to test people's faith if they have it or get them to immerse themselves deeper into faith or affirm their lack of faith or have them change from one point of view to another. I don't know if you've ever had any faith and if at all the deaths of your daughter and husband affected that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was finished. Well, it was about a certain period of time after John died, and that period was over. I mean, if I were to do something about Quintana, which I have no thought of doing, it would be "}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 47, "text": "Do you have any - what is death to you? I mean, when you think about death, do you think of there being some kind of afterlife or just, you know, like, a void or a soul or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, the deaths of my daughter and husband did not affect it. Whether I had any faith is - I have a kind of faith, but it's not a conventional kind of faith. And as I said some place in the book, that "}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 48, "text": "Do you ever wish you did? Do you ever envy, like, that man, for instance, who has that kind of faith, that, you know, he's going to die and be reunited in heaven...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I don't believe in an afterlife. Well, you know, what is death to me? Death is ashes to ashes, dust to dust. Yeah. There's a continuum, which - there's a continuum of things. But it's not - I don'"}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 49, "text": "...In his clothes, in his body - yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that - and there's a point in it?"}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 50, "text": "Are you feeling overwhelmed now by the fragility of life, having lost your daughter and husband?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". That would be, I suppose, very comforting. But there's no possible way I could have it."}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 51, "text": "Are you any more or less worried about your own death now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I certainly felt it after John died. Yes, I am a little on the wary side. When I'm with - a friend was having a sort of a minor procedure today, and I was very anxious. I found myself being far "}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 52, "text": "Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I'm not worried about my own death. I think I'm less worried."}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 53, "text": "That's fine. That's fine. Do you want another minute before we talk more?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One of the things that worries us about dying always is we think we're - we're afraid we're leaving people behind and they won't be able to take care of themselves. We have to take care of them. But i"}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 54, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 55, "text": "While you were just collecting your thoughts for a second, my producer just came in and said - and I don't know if you know this or not, but it just came across the wire that your memoir was nominated for a National Book Award.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Writer Joan Didion died last month at the age of 87. We're listening to Terry's 2005 interview with her after the publication of her memoir, \"The Year Of Magical Thinking,\" about th"}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 56, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Really?"}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 57, "text": "So I guess let me be the first to congratulate you", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 58, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 59, "text": "What a weird time for you. I mean, the book, I understand, is, like, flying off the shelves. It's nominated for a national book award, and it's about the worst thing that's ever happened to you in your life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you. Thank you."}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 60, "text": "Oh, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's sort of - there is a mixed feeling about it, I mean, in my mind. On the other hand, it would make John happy."}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 61, "text": "I know that, among other things, your book will be read by a lot of people who have, you know, gone through their own grief. What were some of the things that you've read that you found helpful? You know, one of the things that really surprised me actually in your book is that you single out Emily Post. You went back to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I think he'd be - yeah, I think he'd be very gratified."}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 62, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Emily Post..."}
{"id": "1071240223", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Joan Didion", "title": "Remembering essayist Joan Didion, a keen observer of American culture", "question_index": 63, "text": "Before we say goodbye, I'm just wondering - I felt a little uncomfortable during this interview only because I - you know, the memoir, it's such a fine book, and I think your losses are still so recent that I feel awkward talking with you about them. And I imagine it must be awkward for you to be talking about it to people you don't know like me and to our listeners. At the same time, I understand that there might be some comfort in that because one of the things you've always been as a writer is a reporter, not a reporter in the conventional sense but as a more poetic form of reporter who observes the things around you in the world and reports on that for the rest of us. Do you feel like that's what you're doing now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Emily Post was fantastic on the whole subject of death and how to handle people who are grieving. I mean, she's so practical. She simply dealt with what happens to them physiologically. They're going "}
{"id": "1071242706", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Betty White", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates legendary TV actor Betty White", "question_index": 0, "text": "I think the first series that you had was called \"Life With Elizabeth.\" Would you describe the character that you played?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And now we'll end this tribute by revisiting a FRESH AIR interview with Betty White. Terry Gross spoke with her in 1987, when the actress was co-starring on \"The Golden Girls.\""}
{"id": "1071242706", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Betty White", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates legendary TV actor Betty White", "question_index": 1, "text": "TV Guide in 1953 or '54 wondered if you'd become the TV version of America's sweetheart because of your role in that series. Did you ever feel stuck with that kind of image?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She - they were young marrieds with no children. And she was not too bright. And he was maybe one shade brighter than she was. Neither one of them were nuclear physicists."}
{"id": "1071242706", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Betty White", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates legendary TV actor Betty White", "question_index": 2, "text": "It was, I think, with \"The Mary Tyler Moore Show\" that you really started to get a different kind of image on TV. You played Sue Ann Nevins, the happy homemaker who was the happy homemaker on television, but off-screen, she was very catty, conniving. How did you get cast in that image? It really seemed to be casting against type at the time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nope, because I was doing a lot of other things along with it, and everybody thought of me as very sweet and yucky and all that stuff and - but then at the same - when Jack Paar started, I did about 7"}
{"id": "1071242706", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Betty White", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates legendary TV actor Betty White", "question_index": 3, "text": "Were you insulted at all that they were looking for this, you know, bland, sweet, Betty White-type?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was great fun. Mary and I were great and good friends. And the fourth year that her show was on, I had sweated out - Allen and I - my husband, Allen Ludden, and I had sweated out her pilot an"}
{"id": "1071242706", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Betty White", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates legendary TV actor Betty White", "question_index": 4, "text": "One of the things I really liked about the role was that it proved that you really had a sense of humor about the image that you had.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Insulted? Of course not. They wouldn't say those things if they didn't know better about the lady herself. So it's - I mean, that's the fun of it. That's the humor of it. And you can be that type to s"}
{"id": "1071242706", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Betty White", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates legendary TV actor Betty White", "question_index": 5, "text": "Now you're in a series in which you've become better known and more popular, I think, than you've ever been in your career. Did you expect that as you got older, you'd get more visible, more popular?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't think anybody who knew me could've missed the fact that I had a sense of humor about that because I never was being the sweet type. I had - I've always had a rather bawdy sense of humor."}
{"id": "1071242706", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Betty White", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates legendary TV actor Betty White", "question_index": 6, "text": "In a way, I think the characters on \"The Golden Girls\" have become role models of sorts for older women. Have you found that women have been inspired to live in small groups because they've seen it on television?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Who would ever dream of such a thing? The four of us, Estelle and Bea and Rue and I, continually congratulate ourselves on the fact that this took off from nowhere. We had no idea we'd be getting into"}
{"id": "1071242706", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Betty White", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates legendary TV actor Betty White", "question_index": 7, "text": "You've lived alone since the death of your husband, Allen Ludden. I guess that kind of lifestyle wouldn't be for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know about living in small groups. All that I think we have accomplished is to show that there is an alternative lifestyle for the lonely ladies out there. If you notice, \"The Golden Girls\" ar"}
{"id": "1071242706", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Betty White", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates legendary TV actor Betty White", "question_index": 8, "text": "Now that you're in \"The Golden Girls,\" do fans relate to you differently than they did, say, when you were in \"The Mary Tyler Moore Show\" or even before that when you were in your early sitcoms?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, nor for Bea, nor for Rue, nor for Estelle, oddly enough, because we - well, Estelle, maybe. Estelle might be able to do that. But we're all, basically, people who enjoy being alone. But that's onl"}
{"id": "1071242706", "date": "2022-01-07", "guest": "Betty White", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates legendary TV actor Betty White", "question_index": 9, "text": "Why haven't you done films? Was that intentional?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not really. It's the same one-on-one. Remember, I've always been just a television child, not films, not stage. Not - there's not that guard-all wall out there that keeps you kind of remote from your "}
{"id": "1072055326", "date": "2022-01-11", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers screen legend Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today, we remember Sidney Poitier and listen back to the interview we recorded in 2000. The iconic actor died Thursday night at the age of 94. In his New York Times obituary, Poitier was described as America's first Black matinee idol who helped open the door for black actors in the film industry. In 1963, he became the first Black actor to win an Oscar for best actor. Sidney Poitier has said that he always believed that his work should convey his personal values. When he started making movies in 1949, it was difficult for black actors to get significant film roles. It was even difficult to get small parts that weren't stereotyped. But in the '50s and '60s, Poitier starred in a string of films that addressed the racial tensions of the time, films like \"A Raisin In The Sun,\" \"Paris Blues,\" \"Lilies Of The Field,\" \"A Patch Of Blue,\" \"In The Heat Of The Night,\" \"Guess Who's Coming To Dinner\" and \"To Sir, With Love.\" In the '70s, Poitier directed such films as \"Buck And The Preacher,\" \"Uptown Saturday Night,\" \"Let's Do It Again\" and \"Stir Crazy.\" When I spoke with him, he'd just published a memoir called \"The Measure Of A Man: A Spiritual Autobiography.\" Poitier grew up in the Bahamas on Cat Island and Nassau. His family was poor. He was born in 1924 and arrived prematurely, weighing only 3 pounds. His father prepared for his baby's imminent death by buying a little casket. His mother went to a fortune teller.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1072055326", "date": "2022-01-11", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers screen legend Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 1, "text": "Would you describe Cat Island, the island in the Bahamas where you grew up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The soothsayer said to my mother, who was deeply concerned about my survival because I was, in fact, born to my mother with the assistance of a midwife. I was considerably less than 3 pounds. Anyway, "}
{"id": "1072055326", "date": "2022-01-11", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers screen legend Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 2, "text": "And describe your house for us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Cat Island is one of many, many islands in the Bahamas. It's - the Bahamas is now an independent country, but in the time of my youth and for many, many years before, it was a colonial possession of t"}
{"id": "1072055326", "date": "2022-01-11", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers screen legend Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 3, "text": "When you were 10, your family moved to Nassau, I think because there was - what? - a crop failure on the island?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The house. The house was a tiny, four-room structure with thatched roof made from palm leaves. My dad, with the assistance of local people, built the house. It was. It had no electricity, obviously, b"}
{"id": "1072055326", "date": "2022-01-11", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers screen legend Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 4, "text": "What kind of work did he find?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they were tomato farmers. That's what they - how they earned their living. And they sold to the middle guys in Florida. And they did that for many, many years. And when I was about 9 1/2 or so, "}
{"id": "1072055326", "date": "2022-01-11", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers screen legend Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 5, "text": "You left for Florida, where your brother was living with his family, when you were age 15. You planned to stay with him. You didn't stay for long. What was it like to face Southern segregation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, not much. She found a job ultimately working for someone in a bicycle store. And he wanted to continue farming, but the soil available was not resilient enough to to be useful."}
{"id": "1072055326", "date": "2022-01-11", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers screen legend Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 6, "text": "Did you do things in Florida that were considered terrible mistakes because you didn't understand what segregation meant?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- it was an experience, I can tell you. There was some semblance of it in Nassau when we moved from Cat Island to Nassau. There was none of it, none, absolutely none of it on Cat Island. I never devel"}
{"id": "1072055326", "date": "2022-01-11", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers screen legend Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 7, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded with Sidney Poitier in 2000. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And she said to me, what did you do? I said, I don't - I didn't do anything. What do you mean what did I do? She says, what happened? And she explained to me that the Klan had come to the house lookin"}
{"id": "1072055326", "date": "2022-01-11", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers screen legend Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're remembering Sidney Poitier, who died last Thursday at the age of 94. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with him in 2000 after the publication of his book \"The Measure Of A Man: A Spiritual Autobiography.\" You didn't live in segregated Florida for long. You didn't want to deal with the police, the Klan, segregation. You went to New York. When you went to New York, did you have any thoughts about acting? I mean, that's where you started to act. Did you go with any intention of doing that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And she said to me, what did you do? I said, I don't - I didn't do anything. What do you mean what did I do? She says, what happened? And she explained to me that the Klan had come to the house lookin"}
{"id": "1072055326", "date": "2022-01-11", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers screen legend Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 9, "text": "When you got to New York, you didn't have much in the way of money. I think you were arrested once for vagrancy. Where were you sleeping?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I had no intention of doing that. It's - none at all. I went to New York because I presupposed it to be different from Florida. And, in fact, it was. I had heard stories about Harlem - not so much"}
{"id": "1072055326", "date": "2022-01-11", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers screen legend Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 10, "text": "Your first audition was as a result of a classified ad that you'd read for the American Negro Theater, which was looking for performers. You say when you got to your audition, you had trouble just reading the script. You certainly hadn't been in an audition before. You had no training. But you didn't have much schooling either.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And they send it off to Washington, I think. And I had to sleep there. And the next morning, word came back that I was clean. I was fine, not wanted anywhere."}
{"id": "1072055326", "date": "2022-01-11", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers screen legend Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 11, "text": "How much schooling did you have? And what were your reading skills like at the time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I didn't."}
{"id": "1072055326", "date": "2022-01-11", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers screen legend Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, why did you come back for more after that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", his last line to me was, get yourself a job as a dishwasher or something. Well."}
{"id": "1072055326", "date": "2022-01-11", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers screen legend Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 13, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded with Sidney Poitier in 2000. We'll continue our remembrance with more of the interview after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because - oh, I mean - as I'm walking down the street, heading to the bus stop to take a bus toward the area where the employment offices were, where I would be going to get a dishwasher's job, I said"}
{"id": "1072055326", "date": "2022-01-11", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers screen legend Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded in 2000 with Sidney Poitier. He died Thursday night at the age of 94. He was the first Black actor to win an Oscar for best actor. His many films include \"A Raisin In The Sun,\" \"Paris Blues,\" \"Lilies Of The Field,\" \"In The Heat Of The Night,\" \"Guess Who's Coming To Dinner\" and \"To Sir, With Love.\" He directed \"Buck And The Preacher,\" \"Uptown Saturday Night,\" \"Let's Do It Again\" and \"Stir Crazy.\" I spoke with him after the publication of his memoir, \"The Measure Of A Man.\" He was born in the Bahamas on a small island which had no electricity. He didn't see his first film until age 11, after his family moved to the larger island, Nassau. I asked Poitier if he liked movies.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) In the heat of the night, seems like a cold sweat creeping across my brow. Yeah."}
{"id": "1072055326", "date": "2022-01-11", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers screen legend Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 15, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So they took me, and we went to this place. And then the lights went down, and suddenly, up on the screen came writing, you know, stuff, just writing about - and I was looking at this writing and sudd"}
{"id": "1072055326", "date": "2022-01-11", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers screen legend Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 16, "text": "Let me get back to your audition. So, you know, you're told, like, don't come back. Go be a dishwasher. And you decide you're going to prove that this guy's wrong. What did you do to try to improve your auditioning skills before going back to prove that this guy was wrong and that you could do it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Because I couldn't understand how all those people and all those cows could be in this one building, you see."}
{"id": "1072055326", "date": "2022-01-11", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers screen legend Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 17, "text": "Well, let me just stop you there and say I can hear the accent much more in this interview than I hear it in movies.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my first job was to - because I had this Caribbean accent, as you - I'm sure you're acquainted with what a Caribbean accent is."}
{"id": "1072055326", "date": "2022-01-11", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers screen legend Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 18, "text": "So you patterned yourself on radio announcers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And I would just listen and repeat and repeat and repeat and repeat. And it took some months, but then my - the heavy A in the Caribbean speech and the rhythmic sing-songy (ph) patterns began to fad"}
{"id": "1072055326", "date": "2022-01-11", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers screen legend Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 19, "text": "So you went back to the American Negro Theatre company and auditioned a second time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", but I listened a great deal. And I learned pronunciation of words that I was studying - what - I was trying to learn what the words meant."}
{"id": "1072055326", "date": "2022-01-11", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers screen legend Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 20, "text": "So it's amazing, really, that you were able to actually get a part after all of this. What - just tell me, what was the thing that you did that you think convinced the right people at the theater company to give you a shot?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't know any better. So I got up on the stage, and I'm reading this thing. And I was hardly through the first paragraph when they stopped me. Oh, my God. Just thinking about it."}
{"id": "1072055326", "date": "2022-01-11", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers screen legend Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 21, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded with Sidney Poitier in 2000. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I went back a few days later, and I proposed to them, since they didn't have, as it appeared to me, a janitor, I would do the janitor work, which I perceived as being not a great deal of work because "}
{"id": "1072055326", "date": "2022-01-11", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers screen legend Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're remembering Sidney Poitier, who died last Thursday at the age of 94. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with him in 2000 after the publication of his book \"The Measure Of A Man: A Spiritual Autobiography.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I went back a few days later, and I proposed to them, since they didn't have, as it appeared to me, a janitor, I would do the janitor work, which I perceived as being not a great deal of work because "}
{"id": "1072055326", "date": "2022-01-11", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers screen legend Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 23, "text": "Let me advance the story a little further and take you to the early part of your movie career, specifically to \"Blackboard Jungle,\" which was released in 1954. This was an important film for you. You had one of the leads in it. This is, like, the most famous high school film, I think - opens with \"Rock Around The Clock.\" Glenn Ford plays the new teacher at a school just filled with juvenile delinquents. And in your first scene, he catches you and some of the other guys smoking in the bathroom. You're washing your hands with your back turned toward the teacher for most of this scene. Let's hear this scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I went back a few days later, and I proposed to them, since they didn't have, as it appeared to me, a janitor, I would do the janitor work, which I perceived as being not a great deal of work because "}
{"id": "1072055326", "date": "2022-01-11", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers screen legend Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 24, "text": "Sidney Poitier, how did you like your role in \"Blackboard Jungle\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Richard Dadier) Look. How many times do I have to tell you? Let's go, huh? Come on. Let's go."}
{"id": "1072055326", "date": "2022-01-11", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers screen legend Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well, you became the African American leading man in the '60s. What were some of the things that you felt you weren't allowed to play or express as an African American leading man in the '60s in Hollywood?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I liked it. I liked it. This young guy that I play, he was really on the cusp of finding himself in useful ways or losing himself to forces he couldn't quite understand by then. And so he had some com"}
{"id": "1072055326", "date": "2022-01-11", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers screen legend Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 26, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I - that is a very good question. And the true answer is I have no such imagery of what I was not able to express because, taken - taking the times as they were, the fact of my career was in itself re"}
{"id": "1072055326", "date": "2022-01-11", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers screen legend Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 27, "text": "Well, I'm glad you brought that up. What were some of the things you heard from your fellow actors at the time about stereotype roles that they had to play in Hollywood when you came to Hollywood?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Just the fact of it, you see. It would have been a luxury I would not have spent much time on trying to determine what was missing. What was missing was not so much for me but what was missing for "}
{"id": "1072055326", "date": "2022-01-11", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers screen legend Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 28, "text": "Let me talk with you about a scene that I think represents the kind of values that you're talking about. And this is a scene from \"In The Heat Of The Night.\" In that film, Rod Steiger plays a local police chief in a Southern town. You're a homicide cop from Philadelphia, passing through this Southern town. But you're arrested for being suspicious because you're a Black man from out of town carrying money in your wallet. The police chief doesn't really believe that you're a cop, so he calls your boss in Philly. And your boss suggests that you stay in the small Southern town to help them solve this big murder case that they're working on 'cause they don't have cops who are nearly as experienced as you are. So in this scene, you and Rod Steiger, who's still very skeptical of you, go to question one of the leading white businessmen in town. And I'll just explain in case it's confusing, as our listeners hear it, that as you're questioning him, the businessman slaps you. And then without missing a beat, you slap him right back. Here's the scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, you know, most of us, I think, were obliged to play what was available. I did not. I did not take advantage of that. I couldn't. It was not what I needed to do for my life. I had elected t"}
{"id": "1072055326", "date": "2022-01-11", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers screen legend Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 29, "text": "Sidney Poitier, in your new memoir, you say that's not the way the scene was originally written. Originally, you didn't slap this businessman right after he slapped you. What did you do in the original scene? And why did you want to change it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Endicott) I'll remember that. There was a time when I could have had you shot."}
{"id": "1072055326", "date": "2022-01-11", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers screen legend Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 30, "text": "Mmm hmm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The original scene called for the businessman to slap me and for me to absorb it and leave. I found it reprehensible that the writers writing for that period would not have written it differently. And"}
{"id": "1072055326", "date": "2022-01-11", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers screen legend Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 31, "text": "In that film, you use something that you've used in a lot of your films - a very indignant stare, a stare that carries a lot of weight", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That the natural response to a man slapping him, he's going to slap him right back. And I elected, as an actor, to do that because were I the guy from Philadelphia who was slapped, I would slap the gu"}
{"id": "1072055326", "date": "2022-01-11", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers screen legend Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 32, "text": ". Can you talk a little about how you perfected that look?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That the natural response to a man slapping him, he's going to slap him right back. And I elected, as an actor, to do that because were I the guy from Philadelphia who was slapped, I would slap the gu"}
{"id": "1072055326", "date": "2022-01-11", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers screen legend Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 33, "text": "Right, right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't perfect that look. That look is - I - first of all, I don't acknowledge that I have such a look. I mean..."}
{"id": "1072055326", "date": "2022-01-11", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers screen legend Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 34, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because I see myself differently than other people see me, obviously."}
{"id": "1072055326", "date": "2022-01-11", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers screen legend Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 35, "text": "But is that, do you think, a look that came from real life or one that you just developed for your acting roles?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So..."}
{"id": "1072055326", "date": "2022-01-11", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers screen legend Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 36, "text": "Mmm hmm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. My acting roles are, at the core of themselves, a part of me. So whatever that look is - I mean, it - I cannot manufacture such a look. It comes out of those forces that are churning internally in"}
{"id": "1072055326", "date": "2022-01-11", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers screen legend Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 37, "text": "Oh, not at all. No. I mean, it's a great look, and it's certainly the one you need in the roles that you use it in. So no. Sidney Poitier, in the minute that we have remaining, I'm wondering why we don't get to see you much in movies anymore.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1072055326", "date": "2022-01-11", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers screen legend Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 38, "text": "Well, I certainly wouldn't want to begrudge you that. We just miss you in the movies.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Listen, my darling, lady. I'm 73 years old. I have been working in films for 51 years. And I've made a great number of movies. And there are other areas of my life now that - the most important curren"}
{"id": "1072055326", "date": "2022-01-11", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers screen legend Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 39, "text": "Well, I thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, that's very kind of you, and I thank you for that."}
{"id": "1072055326", "date": "2022-01-11", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers screen legend Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 40, "text": "My interview with Sidney Poitier was recorded in 2000. He died last Thursday at age 94. I'm grateful I got the chance to talk with him and that we could remember him on our show today. After we take a short break, jazz critic Kevin Whitehead will review a new album by the trio Artifacts. This is FRESH AIR. [", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for inviting me."}
{"id": "1073053130", "date": "2022-01-14", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "Remembering Oscar-winning lyricist Marilyn Bergman", "question_index": 0, "text": "How did you come up with the phrase nice 'n' easy, which became the title of the song and Sinatra's album?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Let's take it nice 'n' easy. It's going to be so easy for us to fall in love. Hey, baby, what's your hurry? Relax, and don't you worry. We're gonna fall in love. We're on the road to romance"}
{"id": "1073053130", "date": "2022-01-14", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "Remembering Oscar-winning lyricist Marilyn Bergman", "question_index": 1, "text": "This is one of those many songs about sex that isn't literally about sex, but it's absolutely about sex, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It also had a kind of subtext of - to be a little sexy, which certainly also was part of Sinatra."}
{"id": "1073053130", "date": "2022-01-14", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "Remembering Oscar-winning lyricist Marilyn Bergman", "question_index": 2, "text": "Did he ever ask - did Sinatra ever ask you to write for him after having such success with this song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it is."}
{"id": "1073053130", "date": "2022-01-14", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "Remembering Oscar-winning lyricist Marilyn Bergman", "question_index": 3, "text": "Now, you've written a lot of songs, or a fair number of songs, for movies. Some of your best-known songs are songs you wrote for movies. You haven't written that much for theater. How did you gravitate to writing songs for movies?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1073053130", "date": "2022-01-14", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "Remembering Oscar-winning lyricist Marilyn Bergman", "question_index": 4, "text": "Well, let's listen to Alan Bergman sing. This is \"What Are You Doing The Rest Of Your Life?,\" which was written for the 1969 film \"The Happy Ending.\" The composer was Michel Legrand. Why don't you tell us the story behind the song before we hear it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think maybe movies made a deeper impression growing up, and we always knew that we wanted to write in a dramatic context. We were more interested in that than we were in just writing songs in limbo,"}
{"id": "1073053130", "date": "2022-01-14", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "Remembering Oscar-winning lyricist Marilyn Bergman", "question_index": 5, "text": "So the first line of the song inspired the melody.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Richard Brooks, who was a wonderful writer and director, directed and wrote this film called \"The Happy Ending,\" which I think was well ahead of its time and occasionally will appear on very, very lat"}
{"id": "1073053130", "date": "2022-01-14", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "Remembering Oscar-winning lyricist Marilyn Bergman", "question_index": 6, "text": "Well, let's hear Alan Bergman singing \"What Are You Doing The Rest Of Your Life?\" that he and Marilyn Bergman co-wrote.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. But that happens sometimes. With Michel, we can't write lyrics first. We prefer not to write lyrics. We prefer to have the melody. We feel that when we have the melody that there are words on the"}
{"id": "1073053130", "date": "2022-01-14", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "Remembering Oscar-winning lyricist Marilyn Bergman", "question_index": 7, "text": "Marilyn, when you decided that you really wanted to become a lyricist, did you think, well, this is going to be really hard to do because there are so - first of all, it's hard to be a lyricist under the best of circumstances. But second of all, there were so few women who were lyricists at the time that you started writing. Did you think, this is going to be impossible?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) When lonely feelings chill the meadows of your mind, just think, if winter comes, can spring be far behind? Beneath the deepest snows, the secret of a rose is merely that it knows you must b"}
{"id": "1073053130", "date": "2022-01-14", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "Remembering Oscar-winning lyricist Marilyn Bergman", "question_index": 8, "text": "Mmm hmm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As a woman, you mean?"}
{"id": "1073053130", "date": "2022-01-14", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "Remembering Oscar-winning lyricist Marilyn Bergman", "question_index": 9, "text": "Marilyn, did you have a mentor in the way that Alan had a mentor in Johnny Mercer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I didn't think it was going to be impossible. I knew that I would be, you know, the odd woman out. I would go to ASCAP meetings, membership meetings. And it would be me and a lot of the widows o"}
{"id": "1073053130", "date": "2022-01-14", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "Remembering Oscar-winning lyricist Marilyn Bergman", "question_index": 10, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I did. When I was in high school in New York, I went to the High School of Music & Art. I was a music major. And I was lucky enough to become friendly with a girl named Marilyn Jackson, a ver"}
{"id": "1073053130", "date": "2022-01-14", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "Remembering Oscar-winning lyricist Marilyn Bergman", "question_index": 11, "text": "Oi.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I broke my shoulder..."}
{"id": "1073053130", "date": "2022-01-14", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "Remembering Oscar-winning lyricist Marilyn Bergman", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, I love stories about catastrophe that have happy endings.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...If I hadn't fallen down a flight of steps?"}
{"id": "1073053130", "date": "2022-01-14", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "Remembering Oscar-winning lyricist Marilyn Bergman", "question_index": 13, "text": "I'm glad to hear how it worked out. Yeah, it's kind of amazing, you know, that you've stayed together as a couple and as partners for so long. It's sometimes - for so many people, it's so hard to work with a spouse and to work as closely as you have to as a lyricist. And to have kept a marriage up for so many years is pretty incredible.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. That's right."}
{"id": "1073053130", "date": "2022-01-14", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "Remembering Oscar-winning lyricist Marilyn Bergman", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, congratulations on not having had to sing \"The Way We Were\" in your own lives.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, we've been writing together for 51 years."}
{"id": "1073054167", "date": "2022-01-14", "guest": "Jeff Bridges", "title": "Remembering director Peter Bogdanovich, chronicler of Hollywood's golden age", "question_index": 0, "text": "Since you had been a critic before starting to direct your own films, did you put certain pressures on yourself, since you had been used to evaluating the work of others and seeing it with a critical eye? And it's maybe a different kind of eye that you would use when you were actually immersed in your own work, when you maybe have to rely more on your own intuitions, as well as those film critical skills.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One of Bogdanovich's last completed film projects was a 2018 documentary, which he produced about silent film comedian Buster Keaton. When Terry Gross spoke with Peter Bogdanovich, he had just directe"}
{"id": "1073054167", "date": "2022-01-14", "guest": "Jeff Bridges", "title": "Remembering director Peter Bogdanovich, chronicler of Hollywood's golden age", "question_index": 1, "text": "You got your start in film with Roger Corman working, I guess, mostly on biker movies.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think really, to tell you the truth, I don't think I was ever that hot a critic. I think I was, as Shaw called himself, a popularizer. I liked a certain director for whatever instinctive or em"}
{"id": "1073054167", "date": "2022-01-14", "guest": "Jeff Bridges", "title": "Remembering director Peter Bogdanovich, chronicler of Hollywood's golden age", "question_index": 2, "text": "Oh, just one biker film?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, just one."}
{"id": "1073054167", "date": "2022-01-14", "guest": "Jeff Bridges", "title": "Remembering director Peter Bogdanovich, chronicler of Hollywood's golden age", "question_index": 3, "text": "Do you consider that experience working with Corman an important one in the development of your career?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What happened was Corman had read some of my stuff in Esquire and asked me if I wanted to write for the movies. I said, sure, and I started to write - he asked me to write a script, started to write a"}
{"id": "1073054167", "date": "2022-01-14", "guest": "Jeff Bridges", "title": "Remembering director Peter Bogdanovich, chronicler of Hollywood's golden age", "question_index": 4, "text": "Is the job of making movies very different than what you had imagined as someone who watched a lot of movies?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was very, very important in terms of understanding the actual job of - the job of work that was involved. I learned how to work economically and thrifty, to put it mildly."}
{"id": "1073054167", "date": "2022-01-14", "guest": "Jeff Bridges", "title": "Remembering director Peter Bogdanovich, chronicler of Hollywood's golden age", "question_index": 5, "text": "Do you feel that way about your own work?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess so. I think, you know, it's hard to imagine what you don't know about. Not knowing about it, I assumed the director did everything. And it turns out there's an awful lot the director doesn't h"}
{"id": "1073054167", "date": "2022-01-14", "guest": "Jeff Bridges", "title": "Remembering director Peter Bogdanovich, chronicler of Hollywood's golden age", "question_index": 6, "text": "What's an example in one of your films of something that was not premeditated?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the best things in it, you know, happen as a combination of accidents of personality working and working right."}
{"id": "1073054167", "date": "2022-01-14", "guest": "Jeff Bridges", "title": "Remembering director Peter Bogdanovich, chronicler of Hollywood's golden age", "question_index": 7, "text": "In \"They All Laughed,\" there's a lot of physical comedy. For instance, John Ritter is sitting in a hotel, and he's supposed to be not noticeable, but he's actually very nervous 'cause he's watching someone who he's suddenly gotten this crush on, and he picks up a beverage, and the straw goes right into his nose, and he is in a roller-skating rink and falls at just the wrong moment. Do - that's planned out, isn't it?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1983 interview with Peter Bogdanovich. The film director, author and movie critic died last week at age 82. When he spoke with Terry, he had just directed "}
{"id": "1073054167", "date": "2022-01-14", "guest": "Jeff Bridges", "title": "Remembering director Peter Bogdanovich, chronicler of Hollywood's golden age", "question_index": 8, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure, those are..."}
{"id": "1073054167", "date": "2022-01-14", "guest": "Jeff Bridges", "title": "Remembering director Peter Bogdanovich, chronicler of Hollywood's golden age", "question_index": 9, "text": "And how do you, as the director, go over that with someone? Do - how do you work it until it gets right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Those are physical jokes."}
{"id": "1073054167", "date": "2022-01-14", "guest": "Jeff Bridges", "title": "Remembering director Peter Bogdanovich, chronicler of Hollywood's golden age", "question_index": 10, "text": "Do any actors dislike it when you do it for them, the way some actors really hate it if you give them a line reading?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, a joke like the swizzle stick going up the nose is something that - you know, it looks easy, but it isn't that easy to get it to go up the nose so that it doesn't look like it was planned. And, "}
{"id": "1073054167", "date": "2022-01-14", "guest": "Jeff Bridges", "title": "Remembering director Peter Bogdanovich, chronicler of Hollywood's golden age", "question_index": 11, "text": "You were very successful at a pretty young age and had several successes, then some box office failures. And now you're kind of trying to have a more independent operation. A terrible tragedy struck your life. Have you redefined success for yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Some actors do, but I've only had one actor that ever gave me any trouble about it, and it was one of the worst performances I've had, but he finally did what I asked him to. Because, to me, a movie h"}
{"id": "1073054167", "date": "2022-01-14", "guest": "Jeff Bridges", "title": "Remembering director Peter Bogdanovich, chronicler of Hollywood's golden age", "question_index": 12, "text": "That's OK. You've got five seconds to think it over.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a good question, but it gives me pause. It's like, somebody once said, I must have notice of that question."}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. After serving two tours as a Marine in Afghanistan from 2008 to 2010, my guest Thomas Gibbons-Neff returned in 2015 as a reporter for The Washington Post. In 2017, he joined The New York Times and continued to make occasional reporting trips to Afghanistan. In 2020, he joined the Times' Kabul bureau. That gave him the chance to do something quite unusual. After Afghanistan fell to the Taliban, Gibbons-Neff interviewed a Taliban commander who, 11 years earlier, attacked the company of Marines in which Gibbons-Neff was a corporal. As Gibbons-Neff writes, he had tried to kill me as I had tried to kill him. That Taliban commander is now a high-level Taliban commander. The interview took place in an office in the Taliban government headquarters, which is in a building that Americans refurbished years ago. That interview is an example of some of the more personal writing Gibbons-Neff has done as part of his reporting from Afghanistan. Another is his article about the effort he participated in to rescue more than 120 Times employees and their families after Afghanistan fell to the Taliban. That rescue required the help and cooperation of the Taliban, another unusual relationship with his former enemy. Gibbons-Neff is in the U.S. and will soon return to Afghanistan, this time as The New York Times' Kabul bureau chief. Thomas Gibbons-Neff, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 1, "text": "Why did you want to return to Marjah and write a piece about the Taliban commander who you fought against when you were a Marine? And his name is Mullah Abdul Rahim Gulab.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 2, "text": "So did you recognize him as somebody who had fought against you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I always wanted to go back to Marjah. I mean, as - I was there as a 22-year-old corporal and fought in one of the bigger operations of the U.S. war in Afghanistan. And my perspective then was of an in"}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 3, "text": "Why didn't you tell him that you were a Marine and that you had fought against each other?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no. I didn't recognize him. Basically, he had said that he had been in Marjah in February of 2010, and where my unit had landed was a specific village we called the Koru Chareh. It's a little diff"}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 4, "text": "And the Taliban commander you were interviewing had an M-4 carbine rifle right next to you, leaning against a chair - an American weapon, by the way, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, there was a lot of reasons. I think after that article came out, there was definitely a lot of comments that asked that same question. The Afghan reporter that I was traveling with wasn't enti"}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 5, "text": "So do you know if the Taliban commander, Mr. Gulab, ever read your article about your interview with him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. An American weapon that looked very much - I mean, was the rifle I carried, not the exact rifle but the same type, in 2010."}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 6, "text": "So you're not concerned about him reading it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I don't know. My colleague Yaqoob has his number, and I was hoping that maybe when we go back, reaching out to see if he ever comes to Kabul and would want to maybe sit down and talk again."}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 7, "text": "So before we talk about interviewing him and getting the Taliban perspective on the battle that you fought in, tell us what this battle was about in Marjah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No, I'm not concerned."}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 8, "text": "Before we get the Taliban perspective, what are your memories of the battle in Marjah? Was it a turning point for you as a Marine?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Right. So I guess you could say the battle for Marjah, or known as Operation Moshtarak, was about seizing the district of Marjah, which was considered by U.S. military commanders as kind of the "}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 9, "text": "So the Taliban leader who fought against you, Gulab - what are some of the things he told you from his perspective about that battle that were kind of revelatory for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I think what happened in Marjah, for me - I mean, again, you asked earlier, you know, what was it like? Why did I go back to this place? I mean, it was kind of a huge moment in my life. I was "}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 10, "text": "And it kind of confirms that there were many times you couldn't differentiate between allies and enemies.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think one of the most interesting things - and that's in the article - is just how nonchalant he recalled, you know, dropping his weapons and going up to Americans right after a firefight and greeti"}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 11, "text": "So they would drop their weapons. And when they'd pass Marines or other Americans and you'd ask, like, where are the Taliban, they'd say, oh, we don't know, as if they were not Taliban themselves. What would they do with their weapons?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 12, "text": "Using children was a common practice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They would, you know, drop them in a ditch. I mean, Mr. Gulab said - and the other locals would come and pick up the weapons and take them to their homes. Or maybe they'd put them, you know, in the gr"}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Thomas Gibbons-Neff, and he is a former Marine who served in Afghanistan from 2008 to 2010. He returned to Afghanistan as a reporter, first for The Washington Post, then The New York Times. He's about to become the Times' Kabul bureau chief. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. If you're just joining us, my guest is Thomas Gibbons-Neff. He served as a Marine in Afghanistan from 2008 to 2010. He returned to Afghanistan first as a reporter for The Washington Post, then for The New York Times. He's currently in the U.S., but he's about to return to Afghanistan as the Times' Kabul bureau chief. So one of the things you mentioned was that the commander told you that the Taliban used children, and they used children to alert the Taliban when American troops were arriving. I think in the article, you wrote they used children to hide the weapons. Like, when they would drop their weapons and say, oh, we don't know where the Taliban are, when they ran into Americans, it was sometimes the children who would take the weapons and hide them. Knowing that children played a role in the Taliban and helped enable the Taliban to attack, what did you think about in terms of having encounters with children while you were a Marine? I mean, were you aware then that children were being used by the Taliban and that children could conceivably be a danger to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 15, "text": "Yeah, I mean, you don't want to kill a child. You don't want to lose your own life, either. Is that specifically what you're referring to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, we were very aware of that. When we would go into compounds, the Taliban would send children to follow our boot prints and would come in and kind of look us in the eye and then run out to tell t"}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 16, "text": "So what was the outcome of this battle?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct, yeah."}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 17, "text": "Was it an emotional experience for you to meet face-to-face with the commander of Taliban who you fought against?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, August 15 would say it would be a total loss. I mean, I think from February of 2010 for a few years afterward, as the Marines stayed in Marjah, it was mostly secure, I guess. They pushed the T"}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 18, "text": "You lost a couple of your men in that battle.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, absolutely. I think there's, like, a certain level in that conversation where I can't really believe where I am. I'm in the district center of Marjah, a place that I had fought a decade before"}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 19, "text": "Were you thinking about them during the interview?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So two of my friends were wounded - or two of my teammates were wounded in the first day. And then we had lost someone from our platoon and a very good friend of mine in May of 2010, along with"}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 20, "text": "When you returned to Marjah to talk to the Taliban commander, you also reported on what Marjah is like now. So did life seem any better or worse in Marjah?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it's hard not to. I mean, I think they're kind of - I mean, during that entire trip to Marjah, they were never far from my thoughts. But it was more, I think, just being there and kind of taki"}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 21, "text": "After fighting with the Marines in Afghanistan, why did you want to later return as a reporter?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think one of the hard things about traveling around Afghanistan after the fall of the Western-backed government and the end of the American war, the war since 2001, is describing the situation where"}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 22, "text": "What else do you feel like you have been able to understand about why you were there as a Marine, you know, why the Marines were there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think - you know, people ask that question all the time. And people like to say, like, oh, well, you went - you deployed twice there, and now you're a reporter. You must know a lot about the country"}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 23, "text": "Can you give us an example?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think one of the things that it's kind of crystallized is just how misguided the U.S. government and the U.S. military and the Pentagon was year after year of the war there to the point where it's j"}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 24, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Thomas Gibbons-Neff. He served as a Marine in Afghanistan from 2008 to 2010. He returned to Afghanistan as a reporter first for the Washington Post, then The New York Times. And he's about to become the Times' Kabul bureau chief. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I think Marjah's a good example. I think that it's pretty well-outlined - this idea of, like, a government in a box, like, your whole build strategy is this idea that you could go into a rural"}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 25, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Thomas Gibbons-Neff. He served as a marine in Afghanistan from 2008 to 2010. He returned as a reporter first for The Washington Post and then The New York Times. He's about to become the Times' Kabul bureau chief. I want to ask you about another personal story that you wrote about recently for the Times. After Afghanistan fell to the Taliban, there were so many Afghans who were desperately trying to get out of Afghanistan and escape Taliban rule. There were over 120 New York Times employees and their families who wanted to get out, and you helped them do it. You worked with an Afghan New York Times correspondent, Mujib Mashal, who grew up in Kabul, and you also worked with some Taliban to get the families to safety. They, I suppose, acted as escorts. Were you part of how the deal was arranged with the Taliban? What can you tell us about how the deal was arranged for the Taliban to help New York Times employees and their families escape?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I think Marjah's a good example. I think that it's pretty well-outlined - this idea of, like, a government in a box, like, your whole build strategy is this idea that you could go into a rural"}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 26, "text": "How did you coordinate with Mujib Mashal, who was working with the Taliban?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So Mujib was in Kabul, and he was working with the Qataris, who were working with the Taliban, so he arranged kind of the escort. And I was on the military side of Kabul International Airport w"}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 27, "text": "Is this while they still had Taliban escorts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So that was pretty much all done over WhatsApp, which was incredible. And I'm really lucky that my phone - I didn't drop my phone or break it because if I had, that would have been it. But it was this"}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 28, "text": "Were you able to achieve a level of trust between the military side and the Taliban side?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, this was prior to that. The first attempt was on those early days, August 15 and then August 16, when we had moved our Afghan colleagues to the civilian side of the airport. And then in an attempt"}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 29, "text": "Do you think you're seeing a different side of the Taliban now? It sounds like maybe, at least for some of them, the war posture is over and that they're a little more humane or maybe not. I don't know. I'd love to hear your impressions about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, that trust really just kind of played out when our people came across at the airport. I think it was around 2 or 3 in the morning of August 20 or August 19. It might have been the 20. And when"}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 30, "text": "Yeah. So people, you know, they're not - the Taliban aren't killing Afghans, and the Afghan military isn't killing the Taliban, and the Americans aren't killing the Taliban. Are Taliban letting women out of the house? Are Taliban letting girls go to school?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think just from that interaction and then from the interactions with Mr. Gulab in Marja, I think there's a distinct feeling of happiness that the killing is over - right? - the violence. I think tha"}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 31, "text": "Let me get back to The New York Times employees and their families in Afghanistan, who you helped get out of Afghanistan after the country fell to the Taliban. Did the families finally get out? And what was the last step in getting them into the airport and on the plane?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Again, I think that's the next iteration of, you know, who the Taliban are now, right? There's always that debate of Taliban version two vs. version one. And depending on who you talk to, they're the "}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 32, "text": "Have you kept track of any of them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So more than 120 New York Times employees and their family members were evacuated. And, I think, in total, it's more than 200 after a couple other flights followed. That last step was - right, "}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 33, "text": "How are they doing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Of course. I mean, they're friends before colleagues, certainly."}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 34, "text": "Let's take another break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Thomas Gibbons-Neff. He served two tours as a Marine in Afghanistan from 2008 to 2010. Then he returned as a reporter for The Washington Post, then for The New York Times. And he's about to become the Times' Kabul bureau chief. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They are doing, I think, as well as can be after what happened in August. I mean, I've kind of learned and been accustomed to varying levels of trauma, death and loss and violence. But I had never bee"}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 35, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Thomas Gibbons-Neff. He served as a Marine in Afghanistan from 2008 to 2010. He returned as a reporter for The Washington Post and then for The New York Times. He's about to become the Times' Kabul bureau chief. One of the stories you recently wrote was about a tribute to suicide bombers that was hosted - is that the right word? - by Siraj Haqqani. Can you describe what this tribute was like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They are doing, I think, as well as can be after what happened in August. I mean, I've kind of learned and been accustomed to varying levels of trauma, death and loss and violence. But I had never bee"}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 36, "text": "You spoke to people who had lost friends or family from suicide bombers or who were injured themselves. What was their reaction to this tribute to suicide bombers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. That was over the fall. And that was Siraj Haqqani, who is the head of the Haqqani network and the minister of interior, put a conference of sorts together or a ceremony at the Intercontinental "}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 37, "text": "How has your life in Afghanistan changed from when you were reporting when the Americans were there and the American-backed government was in control compared to now, with the Taliban taking over the government?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, as expected, I mean, they thought it was obscene."}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 38, "text": "What are they up against?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's - you know, as a white, foreign male, I mean, not that much has changed, right? I think the Taliban are in this honeymoon phase, especially with journalists, as they kind of appeal for le"}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 39, "text": "I'm going to preface this question with, you probably hate when people ask you this. I'm pretty sure you hate it. But I feel like I have to ask it. Having served for two tours as a Marine in Afghanistan, what do you feel like the war accomplished?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, they're kind of up against this government that is, you know, certainly a government, but it just - it depends what each interaction will turn into, right? I don't think - I think there's just"}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 40, "text": "You hate it. Yeah, I'm sorry.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's definitely..."}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 41, "text": "Why did you enlist? Did you believe in the war at the time when you enlisted?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's tough. I mean, it's - I guess it's tough to answer that because there are certainly a lot of people who benefited over those 20 years - a generation of Afghans who are educated and went to "}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 42, "text": "Do you think about how young you were right after high school when you enlisted?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. My dad was a Vietnam vet. It kind of felt like it ran in the family. I grew up in, like, a well-to-do suburban Connecticut town. I was short. I always had something to prove or felt like I did. "}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 43, "text": "Yeah, I mean, how much do you know when you graduate high school", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "About - I mean, just my lack of understanding and knowledge and..."}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 44, "text": ", you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "About - I mean, just my lack of understanding and knowledge and..."}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 45, "text": "You make this decision that could get you killed for a war that you may or may not really understand. And, you know, you're - what? - 18. How old were you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, nothing."}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 46, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah - 18, 19 when I went to boot camp."}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 47, "text": "Well, Thomas Gibbons-Neff, thank you so much for talking with us. I wish you good health, and be safe.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, the thing was - right? - it was - there was 9/11. There was al-Qaida. There was Afghanistan. There was weapons of mass destruction in Iraq or something. And, you know, you get to Afghani"}
{"id": "1074372201", "date": "2022-01-20", "guest": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff", "title": "This Marine-turned-journalist interviewed the Taliban commander he had fought against", "question_index": 48, "text": "Thomas Gibbons-Neff is the acting bureau chief for The New York Times Kabul Bureau and is about to become the bureau chief. After we take a short break, Ken Tucker will review Neil Young's new album. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "1074695584", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "Andre Leon Talley", "title": "Remembering Andr\u00e9 Leon Talley, a titan of the fashion world", "question_index": 0, "text": "Andre Leon Talley, welcome to FRESH AIR. Let's start with, how were you introduced to the world of fashion?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University in New Jersey, in for Terry Gross. We're going to remember the influential and larger-than-life fashion edit"}
{"id": "1074695584", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "Andre Leon Talley", "title": "Remembering Andr\u00e9 Leon Talley, a titan of the fashion world", "question_index": 1, "text": "So you're a 9-year-old boy, and you're totally fascinated by these fashions that adult women are wearing. So what...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, from an early age, I discovered fashion through the pages of Vogue. I went to the public library in Durham, N.C. And I was about 10 years old or maybe 9. And I discovered this magazine called Vo"}
{"id": "1074695584", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "Andre Leon Talley", "title": "Remembering Andr\u00e9 Leon Talley, a titan of the fashion world", "question_index": 2, "text": "...Captivated you as a 9-year-old boy about the world of Vogue?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1074695584", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "Andre Leon Talley", "title": "Remembering Andr\u00e9 Leon Talley, a titan of the fashion world", "question_index": 3, "text": "So just to set the scene, while you're entering the world of Vogue and very much wanting...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The world of Vogue meant more to me than what the women were wearing as models. The issues of Vogue captivated me not only for the images of the fashion spreads, but it was the magazine itself that tu"}
{"id": "1074695584", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "Andre Leon Talley", "title": "Remembering Andr\u00e9 Leon Talley, a titan of the fashion world", "question_index": 4, "text": "...To live in that world of fashion and literature and music and art...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1074695584", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "Andre Leon Talley", "title": "Remembering Andr\u00e9 Leon Talley, a titan of the fashion world", "question_index": 5, "text": "Yeah. So describe the actual house you were living in.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Art, art."}
{"id": "1074695584", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "Andre Leon Talley", "title": "Remembering Andr\u00e9 Leon Talley, a titan of the fashion world", "question_index": 6, "text": "Oh, yes", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My grandmother's house was very modest. It was a house of four rooms - a kitchen, living room, two bedrooms and one bath. And we did not have central heating. I remember we had coal heating when I was"}
{"id": "1074695584", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "Andre Leon Talley", "title": "Remembering Andr\u00e9 Leon Talley, a titan of the fashion world", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My grandmother's house was very modest. It was a house of four rooms - a kitchen, living room, two bedrooms and one bath. And we did not have central heating. I remember we had coal heating when I was"}
{"id": "1074695584", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "Andre Leon Talley", "title": "Remembering Andr\u00e9 Leon Talley, a titan of the fashion world", "question_index": 8, "text": "So were you bullied when you were in high school?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...The color of the vanilla extract. And the smell was amazing - still lingers in my memory."}
{"id": "1074695584", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "Andre Leon Talley", "title": "Remembering Andr\u00e9 Leon Talley, a titan of the fashion world", "question_index": 9, "text": "What was your defense?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course I was bullied. I was bullied and beaten up and everything."}
{"id": "1074695584", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "Andre Leon Talley", "title": "Remembering Andr\u00e9 Leon Talley, a titan of the fashion world", "question_index": 10, "text": "So was there a way you could defend yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1074695584", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "Andre Leon Talley", "title": "Remembering Andr\u00e9 Leon Talley, a titan of the fashion world", "question_index": 11, "text": "So I want to kind of collapse a period of your life here. So you move...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I only defended myself through silence and not being a disruptor. I didn't fight back. I didn't know how to fight back. And I didn't know how to articulate this to my grandmother or anyone."}
{"id": "1074695584", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "Andre Leon Talley", "title": "Remembering Andr\u00e9 Leon Talley, a titan of the fashion world", "question_index": 12, "text": "So after you graduated high school, you go to college.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Collapse it, darling. (Unintelligible)."}
{"id": "1074695584", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "Andre Leon Talley", "title": "Remembering Andr\u00e9 Leon Talley, a titan of the fashion world", "question_index": 13, "text": "Then you move to Rhode Island to go to Brown University for your master's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1074695584", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "Andre Leon Talley", "title": "Remembering Andr\u00e9 Leon Talley, a titan of the fashion world", "question_index": 14, "text": "...Your undergraduate and master's degree - both...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes."}
{"id": "1074695584", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "Andre Leon Talley", "title": "Remembering Andr\u00e9 Leon Talley, a titan of the fashion world", "question_index": 15, "text": "...In French literature.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I got my undergraduate degree..."}
{"id": "1074695584", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "Andre Leon Talley", "title": "Remembering Andr\u00e9 Leon Talley, a titan of the fashion world", "question_index": 16, "text": "You know what? I realized you are one of the few guests I've had who talks even faster than I do.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...In French literature. And I tell you, when I went to Brown and won that scholarship, the world opened. When I got on the train - I went to Brown on a train from Durham. My uncle went with me. He ro"}
{"id": "1074695584", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "Andre Leon Talley", "title": "Remembering Andr\u00e9 Leon Talley, a titan of the fashion world", "question_index": 17, "text": "I absolutely understand, and I'm quite enjoying it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm talking fast, but I'm loving it. I hope that you understand it."}
{"id": "1074695584", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "Andre Leon Talley", "title": "Remembering Andr\u00e9 Leon Talley, a titan of the fashion world", "question_index": 18, "text": "So you get to New York after graduating from Brown. And you'd always wanted to meet Andy Warhol and the people...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "1074695584", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "Andre Leon Talley", "title": "Remembering Andr\u00e9 Leon Talley, a titan of the fashion world", "question_index": 19, "text": "...Who he helped make famous. And you not only got to meet them, you got to work at his magazine, Interview magazine...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes."}
{"id": "1074695584", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "Andre Leon Talley", "title": "Remembering Andr\u00e9 Leon Talley, a titan of the fashion world", "question_index": 20, "text": "...Which, I should say, parenthetically, just filed for bankruptcy...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1074695584", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "Andre Leon Talley", "title": "Remembering Andr\u00e9 Leon Talley, a titan of the fashion world", "question_index": 21, "text": "...And closed. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And closed."}
{"id": "1074695584", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "Andre Leon Talley", "title": "Remembering Andr\u00e9 Leon Talley, a titan of the fashion world", "question_index": 22, "text": "So when you were there and got to see all of the, like, Warhol superstars and everything, what made the biggest impression on you in terms of your own life in terms of your own personal and professional identity? - 'cause you were - you know, you were in your early 20s, I imagine, at the time. And it's a very formative period when you're still, you know, shaping who you are and figuring out who you want to be. And you're looking at all these people who kind of remade themselves, who transformed themselves into something else.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It folded."}
{"id": "1074695584", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "Andre Leon Talley", "title": "Remembering Andr\u00e9 Leon Talley, a titan of the fashion world", "question_index": 23, "text": "Well, another thing about the Andy Warhol crowd is that there was a lot of gender and sexual fluidity.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this is what I loved. I loved it. I loved the world. Now, the people that I met through Warhol were the people that I always wanted to know. They were not bullies. They did not judge you. There "}
{"id": "1074695584", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "Andre Leon Talley", "title": "Remembering Andr\u00e9 Leon Talley, a titan of the fashion world", "question_index": 24, "text": "Right. So eventually, you get to Vogue. You were a man at Vogue. You were also an African American man at Vogue.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Gender and sexual fluidity. But it wasn't rampant, and it wasn't overt. People went into the office, and there was a deportment about going into the Factory. You had a certain culture of the office at"}
{"id": "1074695584", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "Andre Leon Talley", "title": "Remembering Andr\u00e9 Leon Talley, a titan of the fashion world", "question_index": 25, "text": "So I'm sure you stood out. Did you feel like you were with your people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes."}
{"id": "1074695584", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "Andre Leon Talley", "title": "Remembering Andr\u00e9 Leon Talley, a titan of the fashion world", "question_index": 26, "text": "Or did you feel like you were separate?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I never felt bullied."}
{"id": "1074695584", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "Andre Leon Talley", "title": "Remembering Andr\u00e9 Leon Talley, a titan of the fashion world", "question_index": 27, "text": "So one of your contributions in terms of personal style to fashion is your capes and your caftans. How did you start wearing them? And I should say these are not ordinary capes. These are, like...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2018 interview with influential fashion editor Andre Leon Talley. The longtime editor at large at Vogue died Tuesday. He was 73 years old."}
{"id": "1074695584", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "Andre Leon Talley", "title": "Remembering Andr\u00e9 Leon Talley, a titan of the fashion world", "question_index": 28, "text": "...Amazingly designed, like, sometimes out of fur or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1074695584", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "Andre Leon Talley", "title": "Remembering Andr\u00e9 Leon Talley, a titan of the fashion world", "question_index": 29, "text": "Did your weight have anything to do with wanting to capes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Meticulated (ph) fur and just thought out and processed with the great class - world-class designers. Well, when I went to Marrakech and saw that the men in North Africa, in Marrakech, in Casablanca w"}
{"id": "1074695584", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "Andre Leon Talley", "title": "Remembering Andr\u00e9 Leon Talley, a titan of the fashion world", "question_index": 30, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "1074695584", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "Andre Leon Talley", "title": "Remembering Andr\u00e9 Leon Talley, a titan of the fashion world", "question_index": 31, "text": "But you were skinny as a young man, so something changed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. My weight issue is an ongoing thing. It's an ongoing battle. I battled it. But I've had weight issues, and of course, my weight issues obviously go back to my childhood and the loss of lov"}
{"id": "1074695584", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "Andre Leon Talley", "title": "Remembering Andr\u00e9 Leon Talley, a titan of the fashion world", "question_index": 32, "text": "So one of the things you mention in the new documentary about you is that you've never had a long-term romantic partner and that you were, you know, very preoccupied with your profession and loved your profession very much. Have you reflected a lot on why you think you never went in that direction?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I - something changed when my grandmother died. It was when my grandmother died. I started eating for love, and I just don't know how to discipline. I'm sorry. Everyone in America is perhaps overweigh"}
{"id": "1074695584", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "Andre Leon Talley", "title": "Remembering Andr\u00e9 Leon Talley, a titan of the fashion world", "question_index": 33, "text": "You know, you're talking about how you were quiet when you were growing up and alone. And you're so gregarious and so talkative and so easy to talk to. It seems like two different Andre Leon Talleys.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Every day I reflect upon that. Well, I was - as Diane von Furstenberg, who is a dear friend of mine, said, I was afraid to fall in love. I was afraid of the rejection. I was afraid of the emotional co"}
{"id": "1074695584", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "Andre Leon Talley", "title": "Remembering Andr\u00e9 Leon Talley, a titan of the fashion world", "question_index": 34, "text": "Well, people were beating you up, also. So you had every reason to think you were an outsider.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There is two different Andre Leon Talleys, as I said. Of course, there are two different Andre Leon Talleys. Because you - I have someone to talk to who is listening to what I have to say. And I didn'"}
{"id": "1074695584", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "Andre Leon Talley", "title": "Remembering Andr\u00e9 Leon Talley, a titan of the fashion world", "question_index": 35, "text": "(Laughing) I hope...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. I was an outsider. I was an outsider with class and style. And I knew that I had style. I knew that I had style. I knew that I had style based on something very strong. I remember when I w"}
{"id": "1074695584", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "Andre Leon Talley", "title": "Remembering Andr\u00e9 Leon Talley, a titan of the fashion world", "question_index": 36, "text": "When your grandmother died in 1989, did she have a clue how successful you'd become?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And those looks I aspired to. I want to look like a pirate."}
{"id": "1074695584", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "Andre Leon Talley", "title": "Remembering Andr\u00e9 Leon Talley, a titan of the fashion world", "question_index": 37, "text": "Did you dress her at all?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, she was very proud of me. She was very - indeed, very proud, very proud. She had a great clue. She knew. She spoke to Mrs. Vreeland. She knew I was on the top of the world at Vogue. She was very p"}
{"id": "1074695584", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "Andre Leon Talley", "title": "Remembering Andr\u00e9 Leon Talley, a titan of the fashion world", "question_index": 38, "text": "What were good grandmother clothes for her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course, I did. You kidding?"}
{"id": "1074695584", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "Andre Leon Talley", "title": "Remembering Andr\u00e9 Leon Talley, a titan of the fashion world", "question_index": 39, "text": "All right. It's been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, good grandmother clothes were not necessarily the clothes. They were accessories. And on the summer, I would go to Garfinckel's when I was a park ranger in the government, a park - ranger at the"}
{"id": "1074698343", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Ronnie Spector, lead singer of the Ronettes", "question_index": 0, "text": "Ronnie Spector, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) The night we met, I knew I needed you so. And if I had the chance, I'd never let you go. So won't you say you love me? I'll make you so proud of me. We'll make them turn their heads every pl"}
{"id": "1074698343", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Ronnie Spector, lead singer of the Ronettes", "question_index": 1, "text": "How did you first hear this song? Did the songwriter sing it for you before you performed it the first time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I'm glad to be here, Terry."}
{"id": "1074698343", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Ronnie Spector, lead singer of the Ronettes", "question_index": 2, "text": "Do you remember the recording session?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the first time I heard it, you know, Phil and those were - and Ellie Greenwich and Jeff Barry. We met in a little studio, and they started writing around me. And I guess I was very - I was 16 ye"}
{"id": "1074698343", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Ronnie Spector, lead singer of the Ronettes", "question_index": 3, "text": "What was it like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1074698343", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Ronnie Spector, lead singer of the Ronettes", "question_index": 4, "text": "Now, as we'll hear, one of the things you do on this record is your famous - I can't. I can't even imitate this, but you have the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I remember everything."}
{"id": "1074698343", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Ronnie Spector, lead singer of the Ronettes", "question_index": 5, "text": "Yeah, your famous whoa, oh, oh", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Whoa, oh."}
{"id": "1074698343", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Ronnie Spector, lead singer of the Ronettes", "question_index": 6, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Whoa, oh."}
{"id": "1074698343", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Ronnie Spector, lead singer of the Ronettes", "question_index": 7, "text": "...Which you do a lot in \"Be My Baby\" and in a lot of your early records. How did you come up with that? Was that something you just started singing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1074698343", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Ronnie Spector, lead singer of the Ronettes", "question_index": 8, "text": "Can we talk about some of those old memories...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1074698343", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Ronnie Spector, lead singer of the Ronettes", "question_index": 9, "text": "...About how you started to sing? You formed the Ronettes with two of your cousins when you were all teenagers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "1074698343", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Ronnie Spector, lead singer of the Ronettes", "question_index": 10, "text": "A sister and a cousin, oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, a sister and a cousin."}
{"id": "1074698343", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Ronnie Spector, lead singer of the Ronettes", "question_index": 11, "text": "And how did you learn to sing harmonies?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1074698343", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Ronnie Spector, lead singer of the Ronettes", "question_index": 12, "text": "What kind of neighborhood was it that you grew up in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "and out of - all the people in our neighborhood were, like, becoming stars. Like, I - Frankie Lymon and stuff. And when I met him - I was in love with him when I - and I didn't even know him, and I wa"}
{"id": "1074698343", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Ronnie Spector, lead singer of the Ronettes", "question_index": 13, "text": "You broke in through - into the music business by being a dancer at the Peppermint Lounge, being a dancer on the \"Murray The K\" show...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I grew up in Spanish Harlem, which was terrific because it was, like, every race, every color, every language. It was wonderful. My father's Irish, and my mother's Black and Indian. And every time som"}
{"id": "1074698343", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Ronnie Spector, lead singer of the Ronettes", "question_index": 14, "text": "...Singing backup vocals. Did you do things in those early days to help get yourself noticed? Did you either, like, dress in such a way...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1074698343", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Ronnie Spector, lead singer of the Ronettes", "question_index": 15, "text": "...As to call attention to yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, are you kidding?"}
{"id": "1074698343", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Ronnie Spector, lead singer of the Ronettes", "question_index": 16, "text": "OK, what'd you do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh."}
{"id": "1074698343", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Ronnie Spector, lead singer of the Ronettes", "question_index": 17, "text": "Oh, about things you did to call attention to yourself...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, first of all, we would - we wore - we tried to be - you have to have a gimmick in this business. And we figured. And so we wore hair extra high - you know, the beehives in the '60s. And we wore ey"}
{"id": "1074698343", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Ronnie Spector, lead singer of the Ronettes", "question_index": 18, "text": "...When you're trying to break in.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I - and..."}
{"id": "1074698343", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Ronnie Spector, lead singer of the Ronettes", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "See; when we first - we decided to dress up, and we had a lot of aunts. My mother has, like, six sisters. And so that's seven of them dressing us. And they told us to put a cigarette in our mouth."}
{"id": "1074698343", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Ronnie Spector, lead singer of the Ronettes", "question_index": 20, "text": "You had some of the highest hair in the whole music business.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And we stood outside the Peppermint Lounge, dressed just alike. And I was so glad because it's 14 hours smoking. They just didn't know it. And it was great because we stood on line, and we had to look"}
{"id": "1074698343", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Ronnie Spector, lead singer of the Ronettes", "question_index": 21, "text": "Now, you know, it always made me think that you were really tough, really streetwise.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's what I said. You had to have a little attention. And we certainly brought attention with those high hairdos. I mean, we must have worn our hair at least 10 inches high."}
{"id": "1074698343", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Ronnie Spector, lead singer of the Ronettes", "question_index": 22, "text": "Were you? No?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "1074698343", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Ronnie Spector, lead singer of the Ronettes", "question_index": 23, "text": "Let's get to more of your recordings with The Ronettes. You first signed with a small label called Colpix Records. And...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1987 interview with Ronnie Spector, the singer who rose to fame as the lead singer of The Ronettes. She died last week at age 78."}
{"id": "1074698343", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Ronnie Spector, lead singer of the Ronettes", "question_index": 24, "text": "That - those records never really became hits. How did you sign with Phil Spector, with whom you really recorded your best-known records?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "1074698343", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Ronnie Spector, lead singer of the Ronettes", "question_index": 25, "text": "Fooled everybody", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "you know? We hadn't had any hit records, so it was perfect. And my mother went there one day. And she got them to release us because we were underage. And my mother said, they don't want to sing anymo"}
{"id": "1074698343", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Ronnie Spector, lead singer of the Ronettes", "question_index": 26, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "you know? We hadn't had any hit records, so it was perfect. And my mother went there one day. And she got them to release us because we were underage. And my mother said, they don't want to sing anymo"}
{"id": "1074698343", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Ronnie Spector, lead singer of the Ronettes", "question_index": 27, "text": "Once he started working with you, did he make suggestions to you and The Ronettes about changes he wanted to hear in either the harmonies or the lead vocals?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So that's how we got to be with Phil on Philles Records. But that's not how we met him, you see. My sister and myself and my cousin got together one night. And we said, how are we going to meet "}
{"id": "1074698343", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Ronnie Spector, lead singer of the Ronettes", "question_index": 28, "text": "You both became lovers. Did that add a certain drama to your performances when you worked together?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, because first of all, the backgrounds weren't just my sister and my cousin. It was, like - we had about 10 people. There was Cher. There was Sonny. There was Darlene Love. He had, like, 10, 20 - a"}
{"id": "1074698343", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Ronnie Spector, lead singer of the Ronettes", "question_index": 29, "text": "\"Walking In The Rain\" - we've heard some of \"Be My Baby.\" Is \"Walking In The Rain\" one of your favorites of the records that you recorded?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It may have. But I guess because I was, you know, performing so much before I met him, I just had that - I loved performing. And I don't think he - by falling in love with him made me any better as fa"}
{"id": "1074698343", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Ronnie Spector, lead singer of the Ronettes", "question_index": 30, "text": "I love that, too. Why don't we hear a few seconds of it? And then we'll talk some more.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, \"Be My Baby\" is my No. 1. I'll love it forever. And \"Walking In The Rain\" - I love it, too. Yes, I really do."}
{"id": "1074698343", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Ronnie Spector, lead singer of the Ronettes", "question_index": 31, "text": "OK. This is The Ronettes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "1074698343", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Ronnie Spector, lead singer of the Ronettes", "question_index": 32, "text": "Oh, Ronnie, that sounds great. That's Ronnie Spector singing along...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1074698343", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Ronnie Spector, lead singer of the Ronettes", "question_index": 33, "text": "...With her record from the 1960s, \"Walking In The Rain.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I couldn't help it."}
{"id": "1074698343", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Ronnie Spector, lead singer of the Ronettes", "question_index": 34, "text": "Oh, it's terrific. You gave up rock 'n' roll for a while when you married Phil Spector.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I couldn't help it, Terry."}
{"id": "1074698343", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Ronnie Spector, lead singer of the Ronettes", "question_index": 35, "text": "So it was kind of against your will that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I didn't give it up. As a matter of fact, I didn't know when I got married that I would never sing again. I thought, as a matter of fact, I would be recording a little bit more and maybe touring a l"}
{"id": "1074698343", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Ronnie Spector, lead singer of the Ronettes", "question_index": 36, "text": "Well, during that period, did you sing a lot in the house just to keep your voice in shape?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, it was something I didn't expect."}
{"id": "1074698343", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Ronnie Spector, lead singer of the Ronettes", "question_index": 37, "text": "Yeah. There was no rock 'n' roll because your husband of the time, Phil Spector, didn't want it in the house. When you left that marriage and you left him and you tried to re-enter the music business again, had you lost your bearings for a while? Was it hard for you to find your place? You'd been out of the scene for a while, and you hadn't even been listening to the music for a while.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, because it was no rock 'n' roll allowed in my house then. It was only classical music played throughout the whole house. And how can I sing to classical music, you know, rock 'n' roll? And I just "}
{"id": "1074698343", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Ronnie Spector, lead singer of the Ronettes", "question_index": 38, "text": "You recently remarried. And I believe your husband is also your manager.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. No, but I never lost my bearings. I guess it's like riding a bicycle. Once you, you know, learn, once you fall off, you get right back on. And that's how I was with my singing. Of course, it wa"}
{"id": "1074698343", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Ronnie Spector, lead singer of the Ronettes", "question_index": 39, "text": "And I was wondering if you were ever afraid to get involved with a professional relationship that was also an intimate relationship because of how you had been hurt the first time by combining the two.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1074698343", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Ronnie Spector, lead singer of the Ronettes", "question_index": 40, "text": "Well, I'm glad you're back recording and performing again. It's a pleasure to hear your voice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I tell you, I wouldn't have never met - first of all, I've been married two years. And I have two kids now, 3 and 4. With Phil, I had kids too. I had three kids, but they were all adopted. But with th"}
{"id": "1074698343", "date": "2022-01-21", "guest": "The Ronettes", "title": "Remembering Ronnie Spector, lead singer of the Ronettes", "question_index": 41, "text": "And I thank you very much for spending some time with us on FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. I'm so glad to be back."}
{"id": "1075754717", "date": "2022-01-26", "guest": "Thich Nhat Hanh", "title": "Remembering Thich Nhat Hanh, peace activist and Vietnamese Buddhist monk", "question_index": 0, "text": "What were some of the things that you did during wartime in Vietnam to help other people?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Thich Nhat Hanh, a Vietnamese Buddhist monk who was exiled from his country for opposing the war in 1966, died Saturday at his home in Hue, Vietnam. He was 95. Thich became one of t"}
{"id": "1075754717", "date": "2022-01-26", "guest": "Thich Nhat Hanh", "title": "Remembering Thich Nhat Hanh, peace activist and Vietnamese Buddhist monk", "question_index": 1, "text": "You know, the image of mindful breathing and so on is an image of stillness, and in wartime, there's often the need to flee as fast as you possibly can. Were those two things compatible? Were you able to practice stillness and the ability to run for your life when you needed to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We trained young monks and young people so that they become social and peace workers, come into the area where there are victims of war to care for the wounded, to resettle the refugees and to set up "}
{"id": "1075754717", "date": "2022-01-26", "guest": "Thich Nhat Hanh", "title": "Remembering Thich Nhat Hanh, peace activist and Vietnamese Buddhist monk", "question_index": 2, "text": "During the war in Vietnam, when the Americans were in Vietnam, several Buddhist monks burned themselves in protest. I mean, they set themselves on fire and committed suicide to protest the war. As a Buddhist monk yourself, I'm wondering what you thought of that as a way of calling attention to the war.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That is a matter of training. The practice is in the practice of mindfulness. Mindfulness is the energy that helps you to be aware of what is going on. Like, when you walk, you can walk mindfully. Whe"}
{"id": "1075754717", "date": "2022-01-26", "guest": "Thich Nhat Hanh", "title": "Remembering Thich Nhat Hanh, peace activist and Vietnamese Buddhist monk", "question_index": 3, "text": "Did you know those monks?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think before burning themselves, they had tried other ways trying to express their desire, that they won't be stopped, that people sit down and negotiate to end the war. But because of the fact that"}
{"id": "1075754717", "date": "2022-01-26", "guest": "Thich Nhat Hanh", "title": "Remembering Thich Nhat Hanh, peace activist and Vietnamese Buddhist monk", "question_index": 4, "text": "Your trip to America to protest the American presence in Vietnam resulted in your exile from South Vietnam. Were you actually given an official reason for being exiled?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I knew quite a few of them, like the monk Thich Quang Duc, who was the most and the first to immolate himself. I stayed with him in his monastery for many months. And we knew each other quite well. An"}
{"id": "1075754717", "date": "2022-01-26", "guest": "Thich Nhat Hanh", "title": "Remembering Thich Nhat Hanh, peace activist and Vietnamese Buddhist monk", "question_index": 5, "text": "When you teach mindfulness, you're in part teaching breathing, and breathing is really central to meditation. Why is breathing so important?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I did not intend to come and to stay for a long time in the West. In fact, I was invited to deliver a series of talks and took the opportunity to speak about the war, the version that was not he"}
{"id": "1075754717", "date": "2022-01-26", "guest": "Thich Nhat Hanh", "title": "Remembering Thich Nhat Hanh, peace activist and Vietnamese Buddhist monk", "question_index": 6, "text": "I want to thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In our daily life, very often our body is there, but our mind is not there. Our mind can get lost in the past, in the future, in our worries and anxieties and fear. And they're not really there, alive"}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 0, "text": "Louie Anderson, welcome to FRESH AIR. And congratulations on your performance in \"Baskets.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Christine Baskets) Oh, he blew up, but I helped him get the weight off. I always supported Chip. He needed more attention than other kids. I always supported him, even during this clowning phase. "}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 1, "text": "Now, Zach Galifianakis told us that when he was casting the part of the mother, the part that you play, he heard a voice in his head. And he did that voice for Louis C.K., who produces \"Baskets.\" And Louis C.K. said, oh, you mean like Louie Anderson's voice? So they decided, well, why not call Louie Anderson? So they called you. Did you have any reservations about whether you could convincingly play a woman?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks, Terry."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 2, "text": "What's the difference between your voice and your mom voice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, unfortunately, I did not. I grew up with a really great, strong woman in my mother of 11 children and five wonderful sisters. And so I didn't have any. And I've been doing my mom's act, her voice,"}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 3, "text": "Whether she meant it or not.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my voice is, you know, the voice I'm speaking to you in. And my mom's voice is (imitating his mother) Terry Gross, huh? Now, what is that? Is that Irish - Gross? Is that Irish? Or are you - is i"}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 4, "text": "What other qualities did you take from your mother to give to your character of the mother in \"Baskets\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think she meant it. She loved people. And she loved conversation. And she loved to engage with people. She was a really fantastic person. You would've really liked her."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 5, "text": "Yeah. What about the dresses? You wear these, like, big dresses with large, bold primary color patterns, you know, caftans, long necklaces, an Easter bonnet in one scene. How did wearing wearing those clothes help you get into character? And who do those clothes remind you of?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she was a little passive aggressive, you know, like in that - those scenes you played. Isn't this something? You don't have this in France? You know, that little side? She just could slide stuff"}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 6, "text": "Was she a plus-sized woman?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the first day that I went in to see the clothes, it was early, early on. We were all going to meet and do a group photo, I think it was. And there was a big wall of clothes. And I just went thro"}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 7, "text": "There's a scene after she's kind of spurned by her adopted twins. She takes to her room with like a tub of ice cream and a big scoop, and is eating it, lying on her side, eating it from the scoop. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was. She was a big girl."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 8, "text": "Did you and your mother bond over eating together?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Now, that would have never been my mom. I've done that. I'm a food addict. You know, I go to OA. And I really work hard on trying to eat better, especially lately. I've been really working hard on it."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 9, "text": "You think that you boxed yourself in. Were you referring to your persona as a heavy person?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my dad was an alcoholic, and he was a really mean - and, you know, could be very vicious. And so with - anybody who's grown up with an alcoholic knows that there's usually a fight to bring every"}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 10, "text": "I was very sorry to hear about your brother Tommy, who died last week in his sleep. And this was, like, your youngest sibling. You had been the youngest of 10. Then he was born. He was the...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview with comic and actor Louie Anderson. He died last week at the age of 68. When we left off, they were talking about his family, which has been the"}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 11, "text": "It sounds like his death was totally unexpected. You've described him as your inspiration. In what sense was he that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No - yeah, yeah. I was youngest at 10, and then he was..."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, like, he was my - you know, such a good friend. And you know, he was really smart. He was the kind of guy you could call up and go, what do you think? He'd go, ah, that's all crap. Tha"}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 13, "text": "When you did comedy about him...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, you just don't know how to tell them the truth then, Louie. And I go, maybe not. But it broke my heart. My heart's completely broken right now."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 14, "text": "...Did you run it past him first? And if so, what...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 15, "text": "One of the things you've joked about about your younger brother...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I never did. But people didn't - my family didn't get mad. I didn't even know I had to run it by him. You know what I mean? I regret the - some of the books I wrote because I think I hurt people's"}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 16, "text": "...Is that you used to torment him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I used to tell him he was adopted. I said, you were adopted. And I used to say they were frog-faced people."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 18, "text": "How old were you when you stopped tormenting him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Pretty soon, your eyes are going to pop out. Your eyes are going to pop out."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 19, "text": "Does having a younger brother who died - and you're around 63. He was 60. Has that made you think a lot about your own mortality?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He'd like that. I think there was always a little bit of a - like, Tommy used to get really mad at me if I interrupted him. Tommy was a very, really precise person. So - and he suffered from, you know"}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 20, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's so funny. Like, mortality - the first time I really felt anything about mortality was in 1990, when my mom died. That's where I really went, oh, my God. I think I could die now. You kno"}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 21, "text": "Sure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- and I just said that - you know, and that's who the character Christine is, don't you think? Don't you think that in a nutshell, that that's Christine?"}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 22, "text": "You know, you were saying mental illness runs in your family. And your thing, I think, was maybe depression?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Finding a silver lining - and, you know, it just - so it was very profound. I didn't even realize it when she said it."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 23, "text": "So depression always seems to go hand-in-hand with comedy. You know, like, I think most comics, you know, have either some kind of, like, bipolar or depression disorder. And I'm not sure why they go together, but they do. So maybe you have some idea.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I'd say depression. I definitely think..."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 24, "text": "And is that helpful?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I think the reason that they go together is because, you know, if you look at that depression long enough, you have to tip it on its side and look at the other side and find some humor i"}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 25, "text": "Yeah, go ahead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I tried to kill..."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 26, "text": "Well, well...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, you know, I tried to kill myself, but the rope broke. And that would be a joke that I could probably do and get a laugh out of."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 27, "text": "In reading your books - 'cause you have, like, at least three books that have a lot of memoir to them - and in - you know, in listening to your comedy, I keep getting the impression that you have parts of your humor that are too dark for your audience and that, you know, that maybe there are things you'd be saying to a different audience that you wouldn't say to yours.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But it was too dark for my audience."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 28, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I don't even know. How old am I? I think I'm 62. It doesn't really register. I don't know how old you are, Terry, but does it register with you? Like, I don't ever think - like, if somebody were to "}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 29, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, in my eyes, a 62, that's, like, you know, Walter Brennan."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 30, "text": "So how does being 62 or 63 relate to this perhaps turning point in your comedy? Do you feel like there's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's an old reference. But you know what I mean? It's..."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 31, "text": "Sure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I could be an alternative comic. I could be that really dark. I was. I was a very dark comic to begin with. I could be that guy. And the only reason I didn't is that I wanted to make money. I wanted t"}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 32, "text": "Well, you have to allow yourself to grow as a performer, if that's what you want to do, to change. I think performers shouldn't let audiences hold them back from becoming the artists that they're ready to be.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, and I - my mom and my family would - you know, I was trying to - that was my audience. I really - I think I've always been trying to heal families. And here's why. I did a cartoon about my f"}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 33, "text": "Sure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But, you know, you get so much criticism from it. You know that, right?"}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 34, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, you know, the press is relentless, but your fans are mad at you. But, I mean, you do have to take that chance."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 35, "text": "Well, let's talk about something that's happened to you or that you did nearly to yourself and how that either could or could not become something that you'd use on stage. You tell a story in one of your books about how you were in your dressing room backstage before a performance. You had a gun. You put it to your head, and you were very serious about pulling the trigger. You thought first about something you'd seen on TV in which an expert explained that if you shoot yourself in the wrong part of your head, you might survive and then just be brain damaged, which would be worst-case scenario. So you tried to do it, you know, place it in the right spot and then you thought, oh, I don't want to leave a mess. So you got a towel. And then you decided not to pull the trigger, and you went on stage, and it went really well. The audience liked it. You felt better about being alive after that. So...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross, and we're listening to Terry's 2016 interview with comic and actor Louie Anderson, who died last week at the age of 68. He grew up in Minnesota "}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 36, "text": "OK, so that's a kind of near-suicide story. Has that made it onstage into one of your performances?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 37, "text": "Right. Either...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no. But here's what I say - here's what I'll say to you. I never even thought of it as a thing. But, you know, I could do it. You're exactly right. I could do it in a second. It would be funny. Th"}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 38, "text": "I think you have to see it as adding an audience as opposed to adding and taking away. Like, you can - you could do something different without betraying, I think - without betraying...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, that was another big part of it, you know. So you're right. That could be - I mean, you know, I did a dark joke for a while. I go, I was going to kill myself, but I just thought I would just"}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 39, "text": "What do I know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You can, Terry? So, Terry..."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 40, "text": "What do I know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What are you think..."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 41, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, I'm going to turn the tables on you."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 42, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Will you allow me?"}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 43, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK, Terry."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 44, "text": "I've been doing shows like this, like, my whole adult life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What is it - are you doing exactly - always have you done - has your road been this road that you're on with..."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 45, "text": "It would be really out of character to do that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And this is what you've always wanted. You never wanted to get on a show where you just let it fly and just go (growling)."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 46, "text": "Yeah, I feel like my person on the air is being true to myself.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It would be. So there's nothing in you - there's nothing in you that you're not - that you need to do in that area."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 47, "text": "I don't know what people think. I think that there's an...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So do people think - because, you know, you're not the first person to be mentioning this stuff to me. So do people think I'm a wimp? And I don't mean that in a mean way. But do people think I'm too s"}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 48, "text": "Yeah, I think that there's maybe an edge in your humor that you're protecting your audience from.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you brought it up. You brought it up."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 49, "text": "Probably. It's probably true", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Don't you think they see it, Terry?"}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 50, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Don't you think they see it, Terry?"}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 51, "text": "Yeah, I get that. I get that. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, like, don't you think they probably think he has a knife, but I don't necessarily want to see it?"}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 52, "text": "That's a really interesting way to put it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Do you think that - I mean, I..."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 53, "text": "What was the comedy scene like when you were just getting started?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 54, "text": "And where did you see yourself fitting in? Like, how did you find your place within it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Fantastic."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 55, "text": "This was in the Johnny Carson era.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, there are two comedy scenes - one in Minneapolis where I started. So there were only, like, a handful of us. So we'd do the show, and you could do as much time as you want because we onl"}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 56, "text": "Which is your podcast, I guess.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, this is the big time - this is the HBO, babies, you know, in comedy, all those guys. We all did specials, you know, Jim Carrey and Sam Kinison, Rita Rudner. And they were all there, you know? An"}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 57, "text": "Oh, oh, oh, oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I hosted \"The Joan Rivers Show\" for a week when she - when Edgar died."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 58, "text": "Really? Was that your conclusion?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When Edgar died. So I felt like - and then at the end of that week, I go, I could never do this. The actors and actresses are too boring."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 59, "text": "So one of the things I learned about your father is that when he was courting your mother, he was a trumpeter. And he played in Hoagy Carmichael's band. Wow.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview with comic and actor Louie Anderson. He died last week at the age of 68."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 60, "text": "Did he record with him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Like, I mean, yeah. I mean, he was a great musician. My dad was a famous musician, I mean, in those standards. You know, he record - I mean, to work with Hoagy Carmichael - that's - he was a hel"}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 61, "text": "So did he play music in the house? I realize you never heard him play trumpet, but what about playing records (ph)?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I never got to experience any of it. Yeah."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 62, "text": "Was he alive when you started performing and when you got successful?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I never - yeah. He'd play ukulele, and he'd play harmonica. And when I was opening for Crosby, Stills & Nash one time at the Orpheum Theatre in Minneapolis, a guy came. Security came back and said"}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 63, "text": "Oh, jeez.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he saw my very first show. And the next day, he had a stroke, which was really upsetting to me."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 64, "text": "Right, yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But he had lots of strokes, like, 20 or 30 strokes. My dad was a really tough guy. We finally had to kill him. And - that was a joke I've done."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 65, "text": "Did he feel like you were fulfilling his dreams by actually having a showbiz career?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The joke, the whole joke is, my mom ate every piece of butter in the Midwest. She lived till she was 90. And my dad - he smoked. He drank. We finally just had to kill him. That was the whole joke."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 66, "text": "So this is the guy who did bad and the guy who came and apologized for it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think he was the kind of guy who'd fight somebody, and then we'd go to the store, and he'd pick up an extra bag of groceries, and we'd put them on somebody's steps because they were struggling. He w"}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 67, "text": "It sounded like your father was treated more like a servant than a child.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Alcoholism, you know, all addictions, all that stuff - you know, my dad was - when my dad was a kid, his mom and dad, you know, were very - my grandfather has 72, I think, inventions that he sol"}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 68, "text": "So he had a hard life, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he was treated more like a servant. He took me to the house one time in Northfield, Minn. He said, you see that window? I go, yeah. He said, they used to wonder why it got rusty. He says, I used"}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 69, "text": "Oh, wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And at 15, he made them sign a paper so he could join the first world war. And he learned how to play the bugle. And that's how he taught himself the trumpet."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 70, "text": "But you didn't find out about this until later in life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then..."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 71, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "After he died."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 72, "text": "So you must've been shocked to find out that there was this big - there were so many secrets in your family. You're supposed to keep it secret that your father drank. He kept secret from you that he was put up for adoption, that he was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 73, "text": "Well, that's the thing. Sometimes, it's easier to tell secrets to a stranger.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think secrets as much as just it wasn't - nothing was talked about like that. Do you know what I mean? I don't think they hid it away because when my dad was going through radiation for his pr"}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 74, "text": "So we spent a lot of time talking about growing up in a really big family - 11 kids in your family. So having grown up in such a big family and with a lot of issues in the family, from mental illness to your father's alcoholism, even though you've kept close to your family through both your comedy and through, I think, being close to the surviving members of your family, did you also want to get away from family? And did you ever want to create a big family of your own? Or did you feel like, I've done that - I don't want that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Much easier, yeah."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 75, "text": "So you turning difficult things into comedy will help me in my life. Does it help you in your life? I mean, when you say the joke in something terrible that's happened, is that helpful to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first of all, I did want to get away but only in that any big family - you want your own stake in life. You want your own space. And, you know, when you grow up in a big family of 11 with a 20-y"}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 76, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Because, you know, like, I sat in my brother - I went to his apartment. It was really hard after he died. I sat where he sat, you know. And all the tragedy that I felt when I first got there, th"}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 77, "text": "Louie Anderson, I want to thank you so much for coming on the show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it happened twice to me that night. My karma's so immediate."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 78, "text": "Congratulations on your performance in \"Baskets.\" And my sympathies. I'm so sorry about your brother.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 79, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. Thank you. I'm going to send you about 50 of his flashlights that we found."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 80, "text": "Oh, gosh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We found over - we found, honestly, over a hundred flashlights..."}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 81, "text": "Was he a hoarder?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Just in one little area. And I go, what was he?"}
{"id": "1076361910", "date": "2022-01-28", "guest": "Louie Anderson", "title": "Remembering stand-up comic and actor Louie Anderson", "question_index": 82, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know what I always say about my family? We were pack rats. We weren't hoarders because we have aisles."}
{"id": "1078188258", "date": "2022-02-04", "guest": "Howard Hesseman", "title": "Remembering 'WKRP in Cincinnati' actor Howard Hesseman", "question_index": 0, "text": "You know, \"Head Of The Class\" is, in a way, a reversal of the type of school shows that television had on, say, in the 1960s 'cause in this case, the students are the overachievers, and you, as the teacher, is the one who's trying to loosen them up a little bit.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry spoke to Howard Hesseman in 1988, when he was starring in the sitcom \"Head Of The Class.\""}
{"id": "1078188258", "date": "2022-02-04", "guest": "Howard Hesseman", "title": "Remembering 'WKRP in Cincinnati' actor Howard Hesseman", "question_index": 1, "text": "But yet you're the authority figure, which most TV viewers aren't used to seeing you as.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess - yeah, that's accurate."}
{"id": "1078188258", "date": "2022-02-04", "guest": "Howard Hesseman", "title": "Remembering 'WKRP in Cincinnati' actor Howard Hesseman", "question_index": 2, "text": "When...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "slowly dying off."}
{"id": "1078188258", "date": "2022-02-04", "guest": "Howard Hesseman", "title": "Remembering 'WKRP in Cincinnati' actor Howard Hesseman", "question_index": 3, "text": "What are the parts of the character that you think of as yours, character dimensions that you added that weren't in the way the character was initially conceived?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "At least, that's my sort of pinhead view this morning."}
{"id": "1078188258", "date": "2022-02-04", "guest": "Howard Hesseman", "title": "Remembering 'WKRP in Cincinnati' actor Howard Hesseman", "question_index": 4, "text": "Were you anxious to get back into TV after...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in television, particularly where everything is done in such a - I don't want to say a shorthand manner but a short-cut manner, actors have a - actors sort of are the character. It's not as thou"}
{"id": "1078188258", "date": "2022-02-04", "guest": "Howard Hesseman", "title": "Remembering 'WKRP in Cincinnati' actor Howard Hesseman", "question_index": 5, "text": "No - after \"One Day At A Time\" and after \"WKRP\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1078188258", "date": "2022-02-04", "guest": "Howard Hesseman", "title": "Remembering 'WKRP in Cincinnati' actor Howard Hesseman", "question_index": 6, "text": "But other than that, it's great. Where does the - in the joyful dread, what's the dread part of the equation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I don't think I was ever anxious to get into TV. Even now, on an almost daily basis, there's a certain sense of, oh, to quote a friend, \"joyful dread\" each morning. You know, I like to work. I lik"}
{"id": "1078188258", "date": "2022-02-04", "guest": "Howard Hesseman", "title": "Remembering 'WKRP in Cincinnati' actor Howard Hesseman", "question_index": 7, "text": "Do you find that television viewers' preconceptions of you vary according to who you're playing on TV? You know, when you were Johnny Fever, did they think of you as being a high - someone who was always high and a real, you know, anti-authority kind of figure? Then when you were on \"One Day At A Time\" as someone who was going to marry Bonnie Franklin", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "in part because I can't define them. So - but I'm just, for the most part, disappointed when I look at television, particularly network television."}
{"id": "1078188258", "date": "2022-02-04", "guest": "Howard Hesseman", "title": "Remembering 'WKRP in Cincinnati' actor Howard Hesseman", "question_index": 8, "text": "and now as the teacher in \"Head Of The Class\" - do people have a different idea of who you are based on who you're playing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "in part because I can't define them. So - but I'm just, for the most part, disappointed when I look at television, particularly network television."}
{"id": "1078188258", "date": "2022-02-04", "guest": "Howard Hesseman", "title": "Remembering 'WKRP in Cincinnati' actor Howard Hesseman", "question_index": 9, "text": "But what are some of the different ways people have seen you, different preconceptions people have had on you - had about you, depending on which role you've been playing at the time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. It's - sometimes I think of it as sort of quaint, and sometimes it's terrifying. But many people's seeming inability to differentiate between a character that you're playing on television "}
{"id": "1078188258", "date": "2022-02-04", "guest": "Howard Hesseman", "title": "Remembering 'WKRP in Cincinnati' actor Howard Hesseman", "question_index": 10, "text": "Who did you pattern the disc jockey on who you play? Did you have an image in mind?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks to radio, people knew that we were being bounced around the schedule like a Ping-Pong ball for the entire four years. Radio people really followed the show and let their listeners know about it"}
{"id": "1078188258", "date": "2022-02-04", "guest": "Howard Hesseman", "title": "Remembering 'WKRP in Cincinnati' actor Howard Hesseman", "question_index": 11, "text": "I know you were a disc jockey for a really brief period of time, around six months.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1078188258", "date": "2022-02-04", "guest": "Howard Hesseman", "title": "Remembering 'WKRP in Cincinnati' actor Howard Hesseman", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was. And I welcomed this opportunity to say this on radio. Repeatedly, in talking with print interviewers, I would try to stress the fact that I had been a professional actor for several years prior"}
{"id": "1078188258", "date": "2022-02-04", "guest": "Howard Hesseman", "title": "Remembering 'WKRP in Cincinnati' actor Howard Hesseman", "question_index": 13, "text": "What was humiliating about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "personality. I put quotes around that."}
{"id": "1078188258", "date": "2022-02-04", "guest": "Howard Hesseman", "title": "Remembering 'WKRP in Cincinnati' actor Howard Hesseman", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think when you're doing radio, you like to feel that people are listening and enjoying what they hear."}
{"id": "1078188258", "date": "2022-02-04", "guest": "Howard Hesseman", "title": "Remembering 'WKRP in Cincinnati' actor Howard Hesseman", "question_index": 15, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And in my case, what little feedback occurred indicated to me that wasn't necessarily the case."}
{"id": "1078188258", "date": "2022-02-04", "guest": "Howard Hesseman", "title": "Remembering 'WKRP in Cincinnati' actor Howard Hesseman", "question_index": 16, "text": "Did you have a hippie image when you first started acting?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. And we're listening to Terry's 1988 interview with actor Howard Hesseman. Hesseman died Saturday at the age of 81."}
{"id": "1078188258", "date": "2022-02-04", "guest": "Howard Hesseman", "title": "Remembering 'WKRP in Cincinnati' actor Howard Hesseman", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when I first started acting?"}
{"id": "1078188258", "date": "2022-02-04", "guest": "Howard Hesseman", "title": "Remembering 'WKRP in Cincinnati' actor Howard Hesseman", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I was in the second grade."}
{"id": "1078188258", "date": "2022-02-04", "guest": "Howard Hesseman", "title": "Remembering 'WKRP in Cincinnati' actor Howard Hesseman", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, I think I probably actually started acting when I was about 3 years old. I was trying to act normal."}
{"id": "1078188258", "date": "2022-02-04", "guest": "Howard Hesseman", "title": "Remembering 'WKRP in Cincinnati' actor Howard Hesseman", "question_index": 20, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I became a professional actor in San Francisco with a committee, an improvisational - satirical, political, improvisational review company in 1965. And I looked fairly normal - I wasn't inside."}
{"id": "1078188258", "date": "2022-02-04", "guest": "Howard Hesseman", "title": "Remembering 'WKRP in Cincinnati' actor Howard Hesseman", "question_index": 21, "text": "You know, it's funny. In the film \"Steelyard Blues,\" made in 1973 - Donald Sutherland, Peter Boyle, John Savage - they play the misfits. They play the outsiders. And you play the suit. You play the establishment.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "force me to cut my hair. Yeah. Yes. I wore a lot of tie-dye and bright, velvet English trousers and patchwork boots. And as often as not, my hair was longer than my neck."}
{"id": "1078188258", "date": "2022-02-04", "guest": "Howard Hesseman", "title": "Remembering 'WKRP in Cincinnati' actor Howard Hesseman", "question_index": 22, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have photographs of myself taken the day before I cut my hair to get the look of that character."}
{"id": "1078188258", "date": "2022-02-04", "guest": "Howard Hesseman", "title": "Remembering 'WKRP in Cincinnati' actor Howard Hesseman", "question_index": 23, "text": "Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And the film, incidentally, was made in 1971..."}
{"id": "1078188258", "date": "2022-02-04", "guest": "Howard Hesseman", "title": "Remembering 'WKRP in Cincinnati' actor Howard Hesseman", "question_index": 24, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I believe - '70 or '71 and released about a year later. But let's put it this way. I had hair that was close to between my shoulder blades and a long moustache. And I took all that off and discover"}
{"id": "1078188258", "date": "2022-02-04", "guest": "Howard Hesseman", "title": "Remembering 'WKRP in Cincinnati' actor Howard Hesseman", "question_index": 25, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I was on the street - I can't really tell this story on the radio because it's not going to carry very well."}
{"id": "1078188258", "date": "2022-02-04", "guest": "Howard Hesseman", "title": "Remembering 'WKRP in Cincinnati' actor Howard Hesseman", "question_index": 26, "text": "Sort of passed you a joint or something.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But basically, people who normally would have, you know, winked or given me a high sign or something in a surreptitious manner..."}
{"id": "1078188258", "date": "2022-02-04", "guest": "Howard Hesseman", "title": "Remembering 'WKRP in Cincinnati' actor Howard Hesseman", "question_index": 27, "text": "Well, speaking of undercover agents, didn't you once sell an ounce of grass to an undercover agent in the early '60s?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Basically, people - many of us at that point in time walked with our eyes pretty much toward the ground for fear of tripping and meeting the ground suddenly face first. And when you saw somebody"}
{"id": "1078188258", "date": "2022-02-04", "guest": "Howard Hesseman", "title": "Remembering 'WKRP in Cincinnati' actor Howard Hesseman", "question_index": 28, "text": "Well - yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He begged me. He begged me endlessly. That's all I can say. The man was destitute. I knew he was an undercover agent, but just as a human being - and perhaps you had to be in San Francisco in 1963 to "}
{"id": "1078188258", "date": "2022-02-04", "guest": "Howard Hesseman", "title": "Remembering 'WKRP in Cincinnati' actor Howard Hesseman", "question_index": 29, "text": "Oh, I see what you're saying. Now, you know what they always say about how things are going to affect your later career. You got a three-year sentence for this, which was suspended, but you had to serve 90 days in prison. Did this...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...It was two ounces. And in fact, at the preliminary hearing in San Francisco County Court, there was only one ounce offered in evidence. You draw your own conclusions."}
{"id": "1078188258", "date": "2022-02-04", "guest": "Howard Hesseman", "title": "Remembering 'WKRP in Cincinnati' actor Howard Hesseman", "question_index": 30, "text": "Well, did this ever interfere with your acting career? Did you ever have to fill out an application there or anywhere else that said have you ever been arrested?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was before it was hip to be arrested for drugs."}
{"id": "1078188258", "date": "2022-02-04", "guest": "Howard Hesseman", "title": "Remembering 'WKRP in Cincinnati' actor Howard Hesseman", "question_index": 31, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I filled out many of those. I served my probationary period. In fact, I had three years of probation, and at the end of two years, my probation officer recommended and the court wisely saw fit to "}
{"id": "1078188258", "date": "2022-02-04", "guest": "Howard Hesseman", "title": "Remembering 'WKRP in Cincinnati' actor Howard Hesseman", "question_index": 32, "text": "Are you ever surprised when you wake up in the morning that you have started...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In fact, whether I did that or not was of little consequence to them."}
{"id": "1078188258", "date": "2022-02-04", "guest": "Howard Hesseman", "title": "Remembering 'WKRP in Cincinnati' actor Howard Hesseman", "question_index": 33, "text": "That's not what I meant - but that you who got started on The Committee satirizing everything ended up a TV star.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1079191067", "date": "2022-02-08", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "How did the Republican Party become the party of Trump?", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. How did the Republican Party become the party of Trump? That's the question that has led many Republicans to become former Republicans. It's also the question that motivated the new book \"Insurgency: How Republicans Lost Their Party And Got Everything They Ever Wanted.\" My guest, Jeremy Peters, wrote the book after reporting on many of the events that led to Trump. He's a correspondent for The New York Times and has covered conservative media, the rise of the Tea Party, right-wing populism and the last three presidential campaigns. He's also an MSNBC contributor. He writes, Trump didn't bring anything inside the Republican Party that wasn't already there. Jeremy Peters, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1079191067", "date": "2022-02-08", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "How did the Republican Party become the party of Trump?", "question_index": 1, "text": "What do you mean when you say Republicans lost their party but got everything they ever wanted? What do you mean by they got everything they ever wanted?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "1079191067", "date": "2022-02-08", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "How did the Republican Party become the party of Trump?", "question_index": 2, "text": "So they got Supreme Court justices, a big majority on the Supreme Court, the possibility of doing away with Roe v. Wade. What else do you think social conservatives got through the bargain with Trump?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I thought that that was a really important way to think about why so many Republicans - Republicans who had opposed Donald Trump, insisted that they would never vote for him, came along in the end."}
{"id": "1079191067", "date": "2022-02-08", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "How did the Republican Party become the party of Trump?", "question_index": 3, "text": "I want to get back to something you say in the book, which is that Trump didn't bring anything to the Republican Party that wasn't already there. Is that really still true? Did the Republicans in the past try to overturn an election or justify an insurrection and, you know, describe it as people posing as Trump supporters or looking like tourists, you know, in the Capitol? That seems kind of unprecedented.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's not just social conservatives, although that's a huge piece of this. I mean, you have gun rights activists who are emboldened right now. You have, you know, people who are concerned with mo"}
{"id": "1079191067", "date": "2022-02-08", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "How did the Republican Party become the party of Trump?", "question_index": 4, "text": "You know, at the same time, I think it's in 2013 when Reince Priebus is asked to basically write an autopsy about what's gone wrong with the Republican Party. And one of his conclusions is we have to be more inclusive and, you know, encourage, you know, DREAMers to get citizenship. And, of course, Trump takes things in exactly the opposite direction.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, that - so yes. The violence, of course, that we saw on January 6 with the insurrection is, of course, unprecedented. What I lay out in the book is an argument for how the seeds for that insurrecti"}
{"id": "1079191067", "date": "2022-02-08", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "How did the Republican Party become the party of Trump?", "question_index": 5, "text": "Let's take a break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jeremy Peters, author of the new book \"Insurgency: How Republicans Lost Their Party And Got Everything They Ever Wanted.\" We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, he does. I go through numerous examples in the book about the way that Ari Fleischer, the former George W. Bush press secretary, and other Republicans who are of the Bush wing of the party, reall"}
{"id": "1079191067", "date": "2022-02-08", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "How did the Republican Party become the party of Trump?", "question_index": 6, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jeremy Peters. He's a correspondent for The New York Times and author of the new book \"Insurgency: How Republicans Lost Their Party And Got Everything They Ever Wanted.\" What are some of the roots that you see in earlier movements or earlier individual leaders that - you know, that precede Trump but help lead to Trump? I mean, how far back do you go? How far back do you think that goes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, he does. I go through numerous examples in the book about the way that Ari Fleischer, the former George W. Bush press secretary, and other Republicans who are of the Bush wing of the party, reall"}
{"id": "1079191067", "date": "2022-02-08", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "How did the Republican Party become the party of Trump?", "question_index": 7, "text": "Does he have any regrets about having, in his own way, set the stage for Trump?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And we don't have nearly enough time to do that today. But where I start in the book is chronologically with Pat Buchanan in 1992. Pat Buchanan's presidential campaign that year against the sitting Re"}
{"id": "1079191067", "date": "2022-02-08", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "How did the Republican Party become the party of Trump?", "question_index": 8, "text": "Let's talk a little bit about the Tea Party. You covered that, you know, insurgency movement. I mean, these were people who are coming into office in Congress determined to change the way Congress works and what the priorities were. Just give us a brief refresher of what the Tea Party stood for.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I would say, in fact, it's exactly the opposite. I think he takes a certain pride in seeing that somebody was able to succeed where he failed. I don't think that he expected Trump to win a second "}
{"id": "1079191067", "date": "2022-02-08", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "How did the Republican Party become the party of Trump?", "question_index": 9, "text": "So an example of two Tea Party people that are going in opposite directions now - you have Kevin McCarthy, who is the House minority leader and has very much gone for supporting Trump. And then you have Adam Kinzinger, who's now on the January 6 committee, and it's very much about investigating Trump and looking into, you know, what happened on January 6. And you describe in your book on how January 6, Kinzinger, who had been in the military, actually had a gun with him legally and, you know, had taken it out, expecting he might actually need to use it because things had gotten so violent. Am I misrepresenting that at all?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it's impossible to have a conversation about what the Tea Party was without talking about what President Obama meant to a lot of the demonstrators who joined all those rallies in 2009 and 2010. Thi"}
{"id": "1079191067", "date": "2022-02-08", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "How did the Republican Party become the party of Trump?", "question_index": 10, "text": "So, Jeremy, your book emphasizes the role of Sarah Palin in kind of setting the table for Donald Trump. What do you think she represented in Republican politics that was new?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, that's exactly what happened. Adam Kinzinger here, a military veteran, somebody who had earlier, before he became a politician, chased down a criminal in downtown Milwaukee who had slashed a woman"}
{"id": "1079191067", "date": "2022-02-08", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "How did the Republican Party become the party of Trump?", "question_index": 11, "text": "And can I just say I was shocked to read that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As somebody said to me, Palin is very much the tip of the spear of the Trump movement. And that's true in many ways, starting with the fact that she was completely misunderstood and underestimated by "}
{"id": "1079191067", "date": "2022-02-08", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "How did the Republican Party become the party of Trump?", "question_index": 12, "text": "I was shocked to read that McCain's people wrote something as radical as that. I remember during like, one of McCain's speeches or rallies, a woman in the audience said that Obama was a Muslim. And McCain was really taken aback hearing that and, you know, very politely corrected the woman and said that Obama wasn't a Muslim. But by saying that, you know, Obama's palling around with terrorists, the subtext of that opens the door to all kinds of fears about who Obama really is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1079191067", "date": "2022-02-08", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "How did the Republican Party become the party of Trump?", "question_index": 13, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. My guest is Jeremy Peters. He's a correspondent for The New York Times and author of the new book \"Insurgency: How Republicans Lost Their Party And Got Everything They Ever Wanted.\" We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's very ugly. And that's the moment when McCain starts to see this all getting away from him. And they fail to take into account that that was a possibility all along, that by inflaming these passio"}
{"id": "1079191067", "date": "2022-02-08", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "How did the Republican Party become the party of Trump?", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Jeremy Peters, a correspondent for the New York Times and author of the new book \"Insurgency: How Republicans Lost Their Party And Got Everything They Ever Wanted.\" Peters wrote the book after reporting on many of the events that led to President Trump. He's covered conservative media, the rise of the Tea Party, right-wing populism and has covered three presidential campaigns. He's also an MSNBC contributor. We've been talking about Sarah Palin. So do you see Palin as freely dispensing misinformation during the campaign, also helping open the door to Trump's massive misinformation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's very ugly. And that's the moment when McCain starts to see this all getting away from him. And they fail to take into account that that was a possibility all along, that by inflaming these passio"}
{"id": "1079191067", "date": "2022-02-08", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "How did the Republican Party become the party of Trump?", "question_index": 15, "text": "This was her accusation about Obamacare, that it would lead to death panels, where people would decide whether your loved one was allowed to be treated or whether they would just die.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. What you see after Sarah Palin becomes a political figure in her own right after the election is she uses social media to propagate misinformation about President Obama in a way that no other Rep"}
{"id": "1079191067", "date": "2022-02-08", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "How did the Republican Party become the party of Trump?", "question_index": 16, "text": "After McCain and Palin lost the election, Palin became a Fox contributor. And, you know, Ailes was very encouraging of that. You report on a one-on-one meeting that she had with Ailes, in which she emerged from the meeting pale and said, I'm never meeting alone with that man again. I had not seen that reported anywhere else. Did you break that story? And are you implying that Ailes behaved in a sexually inappropriate way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. And she claimed wrongly and stuck to her guns when she was called out on it that these panels of government bureaucrats would be deciding whether or not somebody should receive health care un"}
{"id": "1079191067", "date": "2022-02-08", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "How did the Republican Party become the party of Trump?", "question_index": 17, "text": "She hasn't been on the national stage very much lately or in the past few years, for that matter. But she's back on it because of a lawsuit against your newspaper, The New York Times, which she's charging with defamation. Do you want to describe what the lawsuit is about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So as far as I know, that has not been reported anywhere else. And the reason I found that story so interesting is because it really complicates the picture of Sarah Palin a lot of people have in thei"}
{"id": "1079191067", "date": "2022-02-08", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "How did the Republican Party become the party of Trump?", "question_index": 18, "text": "If The New York Times loses, that will be the first time in 50 years that they've lost, you know, a defamation suit. Do you - I should say here, one of the early statements and recurring statements that Trump made - and of course, as we all know, Trump was very anti-mainstream media - was that, like, we should change the libel laws because, you know, the media is getting away with murder. They're telling all these lies. And we have to prevent that from happening. So her suit is, you know, intentionally or unintentionally, carrying out some of the Trump agenda that he never succeeded in carrying out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "and not only because it's unusual for me to be covering a lawsuit against my employer. But it's unusual because news organizations don't usually take cases like this - or allow cases like this to get "}
{"id": "1079191067", "date": "2022-02-08", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "How did the Republican Party become the party of Trump?", "question_index": 19, "text": "Well, let's take a short break. Then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jeremy Peters, author of the new book \"Insurgency: How Republicans Lost Their Party And Got Everything They Ever Wanted.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, that's exactly right. And legal experts who've looked at this case say that ultimately that is the endgame of a lot of lawyers who would like to see the First Amendment protections afforded to the"}
{"id": "1079191067", "date": "2022-02-08", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "How did the Republican Party become the party of Trump?", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jeremy Peters, a correspondent for The New York Times and author of the new book \"Insurgency: How Republicans Lost Their Party And Got Everything They Ever Wanted.\" Let's talk some more about Roger Ailes and Fox News. Trump, in a way, first strengthened and then, in some ways, weakened Fox News because - in a way, you can argue that Ailes lost control of Trump and that Trump was so far to the right that this whole other constellation of very, very, very far-right media, you know, got built around Trump, taking viewers away from Fox News. Is that something that Ailes didn't see coming, and did he live long enough to realize what was happening?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, that's exactly right. And legal experts who've looked at this case say that ultimately that is the endgame of a lot of lawyers who would like to see the First Amendment protections afforded to the"}
{"id": "1079191067", "date": "2022-02-08", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "How did the Republican Party become the party of Trump?", "question_index": 21, "text": "Someone who could kind of see the direction that part of the Republican base was heading in was a pollster named Tony Fabrizio. And he worked for several Republican candidates over the years. He identified what he described as Dennis Miller Republicans - this was years ago - like, people who just - like, fueled by anger, and they wanted a candidate who was fueled by anger, too. But more recently, he identified what he calls InfoWars Republicans. Describe who they are and how much of the base Fabrizio thinks they're part of.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There are signs that he did know toward the end just how destructive Trump could be to the Fox brand. And you saw that with how fiercely Trump and his allies, especially at Breitbart, came after Megyn"}
{"id": "1079191067", "date": "2022-02-08", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "How did the Republican Party become the party of Trump?", "question_index": 22, "text": "Do you think that we now have InfoWars congressmen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a significant percentage. He found that we're talking about 10% of the Republican electorate. That's 10% of the Republican electorate that believes in several - not just one QAnon conspiracy theo"}
{"id": "1079191067", "date": "2022-02-08", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "How did the Republican Party become the party of Trump?", "question_index": 23, "text": "Yeah. Well, your book is really the story of every time the Republican Party lets in somebody from the far right, the party moves even further right than that person who they let in, and that person is often, like, old news and, you know, passe because they've been outrighted by the next group or the next person who comes along. And you're suggesting that that might be happening to Trump right now. And I've been reading about how in some ways the Republican Party is moving beyond Trump further to the right and that they don't necessarily need him anymore, that his followers have their own thing going and they don't necessarily need him to lead them. And you could also argue that even some of the people in the very far right see Trump as a liability because he's legally liable in ways now. And, you know, there's the January 6 investigations. So how far do you think it's gone so far in Trump's own followers, both in the party leadership and voters, who have moved beyond Trump?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think one of them is a leader of the party - Marjorie Taylor Greene. I think the question there is whether or not somebody like Marjorie Taylor Greene is more representative of the Republican base n"}
{"id": "1079191067", "date": "2022-02-08", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "How did the Republican Party become the party of Trump?", "question_index": 24, "text": "Jeremy Peters, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the real risk there for Trump is what you just identified. It's that his voters no longer see him as good for them. He's in this for himself. And he didn't have that problem in 2015, '16, and "}
{"id": "1079191067", "date": "2022-02-08", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "How did the Republican Party become the party of Trump?", "question_index": 25, "text": "Jeremy Peters is a correspondent for The New York Times and author of the new book \"Insurgency: How Republicans Lost Their Party And Got Everything They Ever Wanted.\" After we take a short break, TV critic David Bianculli will review the new series \"Pam & Tommy,\" about Pamela Anderson and Tommy Lee and how their private sex tape was stolen and put on the internet. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "1079835695", "date": "2022-02-10", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "How Trump sought to use fake electors, conspiracy theories to remain in power", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. It's difficult to keep up with all the latest developments in the investigation by the House committee examining the January 6 attack on the Capitol and the attempts by Trump and his allies to overturn the results of the election. Here to help us is my guest, Luke Broadwater, who has been covering the committee for The New York Times, where he's a congressional correspondent. Some of the aspects of the investigation we'll talk about include the plans in swing states to submit false slates of electors and Trump's role and proposals to seize voting machines to search for evidence of fraud that could overturn the results of the election. Broadwater co-wrote an article about how the committee is using aggressive tactics typically used against mobsters and terrorists as it seeks to break through stonewalling from Trump and his allies and develop evidence that could prompt a criminal case against the former president. We recorded our interview yesterday. Luke Broadwater, welcome to FRESH AIR. Let's start with that, this week, the Republican National Committee voted to censure Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger for being on the 1/6 committee. The censure called the committee's work the persecution of ordinary citizens engaged in legitimate political discourse. Mitch McConnell, the Senate majority leader, denounced that decision and the language. What does this say to you about Republicans in Congress and the divisions and divisions within the RNC?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1079835695", "date": "2022-02-10", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "How Trump sought to use fake electors, conspiracy theories to remain in power", "question_index": 1, "text": "You wrote a recent article about how the January 6 committee is borrowing techniques used by federal prosecutors who investigate organized crime and terrorism. What are some examples of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If Republicans were hoping to keep January 6 in the rearview mirror moving into the upcoming election cycle, they certainly haven't done it. It does seem as much as Mitch McConnell and what I would ca"}
{"id": "1079835695", "date": "2022-02-10", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "How Trump sought to use fake electors, conspiracy theories to remain in power", "question_index": 2, "text": "And then they could keep going up the ladder?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So January 6 committee has really been ramping up their investigation in recent weeks, in recent months. They have now about 45 staffers, two of whom are former U.S. attorneys. And below them ar"}
{"id": "1079835695", "date": "2022-02-10", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "How Trump sought to use fake electors, conspiracy theories to remain in power", "question_index": 3, "text": "So one of the things you've been reporting on is the committee's investigation into the alternate slates of electors in swing states. What was the strategy behind creating alternate slates of electors? What was the point of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Yeah. The - some examples of this - Jeffrey Clark, who was a Department of Justice attorney who plead the fifth repeatedly in his interview with the committee, this was the man who was adv"}
{"id": "1079835695", "date": "2022-02-10", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "How Trump sought to use fake electors, conspiracy theories to remain in power", "question_index": 4, "text": "So just so I understand, the premise was that Republicans in the swing states would sit down and say there was fraud; therefore, we have an alternate slate of electors? Like, what is the justification for coming up with this alternate slate?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Donald Trump, in the days after losing the election, and his legal team and other allies sought to come up with any way possible to cling to power. They talked about seizing voting machines. They talk"}
{"id": "1079835695", "date": "2022-02-10", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "How Trump sought to use fake electors, conspiracy theories to remain in power", "question_index": 5, "text": "What do we know about how involved Trump was with this plan?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So if you believe that it was impossible for Donald Trump to lose the election because he was so popular and such a great president, and President Biden didn't have anybody coming to his rallie"}
{"id": "1079835695", "date": "2022-02-10", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "How Trump sought to use fake electors, conspiracy theories to remain in power", "question_index": 6, "text": "Does this make Trump legally culpable? In other words, could there be criminal charges coming out of this scheme with the fake electors?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Through everything, I think you can see that Donald Trump is sort of the genesis of everything, even if he is not totally up on all the details. So he wants to remain president. He cannot stand the id"}
{"id": "1079835695", "date": "2022-02-10", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "How Trump sought to use fake electors, conspiracy theories to remain in power", "question_index": 7, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Luke Broadwater. He covers Congress for The New York Times, and he's been covering the January 6 committee. We'll talk more after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's a matter for investigation. We know that the Justice Department has said that they're investigating it. We know the attorney general of Michigan has done an investigation, has collected a"}
{"id": "1079835695", "date": "2022-02-10", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "How Trump sought to use fake electors, conspiracy theories to remain in power", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Luke Broadwater, a congressional correspondent for The New York Times. He's been covering the House January 6 committee investigating the events of January 6 and the events leading up to it. Let's talk about the plan to seize voting machines after the 2020 election, voting machines in swing states, claiming that they would reveal evidence of fraud that would overturn the results of the election and hand it to Trump. What was the theory this plan was based on, the theory of fraud that was presented?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's a matter for investigation. We know that the Justice Department has said that they're investigating it. We know the attorney general of Michigan has done an investigation, has collected a"}
{"id": "1079835695", "date": "2022-02-10", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "How Trump sought to use fake electors, conspiracy theories to remain in power", "question_index": 9, "text": "He's suggesting that China has somehow hacked into the voting machines that tabulate the votes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "it's not fact-based. I'll just say that. It's completely insane, and - but they come up with these theories. One person is named Colonel Waldron out of Texas, and he starts perpetuating this idea that"}
{"id": "1079835695", "date": "2022-02-10", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "How Trump sought to use fake electors, conspiracy theories to remain in power", "question_index": 10, "text": "They changed votes from Trump to Biden?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct."}
{"id": "1079835695", "date": "2022-02-10", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "How Trump sought to use fake electors, conspiracy theories to remain in power", "question_index": 11, "text": "You know, you just mentioned that Sidney Powell, one of Trump's lawyers, who is behind spreading a lot of these conspiracy theories - you said Trump was going to appoint her as special counsel. She was going to be a special counsel to oversee election integrity, which is really hilarious considering all of the conspiracy theories she has surrounding the election.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And China can basically choose whoever they want to win the election because they control all of our voting machines. Mike Flynn, who is Donald Trump's former national security adviser and had be"}
{"id": "1079835695", "date": "2022-02-10", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "How Trump sought to use fake electors, conspiracy theories to remain in power", "question_index": 12, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Luke Broadwater. He covers Congress for The New York Times. And he's been reporting on the January 6 committee investigating the events leading up to January 6. We'll be right back after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And, you know, in this bizarre, upside-down world, everything they're doing is justified because there's been this incredible crime on the American public, where, you know, it's not just Democr"}
{"id": "1079835695", "date": "2022-02-10", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "How Trump sought to use fake electors, conspiracy theories to remain in power", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Luke Broadwater. He's a congressional correspondent for The New York Times, and he's been reporting on the House January 6 committee, which is investigating the events of January 6 and the events leading up to it. Is there any law that says if you suspect fraud, you can seize voting machines from states? Is there anything that says that that's something that can be done?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And, you know, in this bizarre, upside-down world, everything they're doing is justified because there's been this incredible crime on the American public, where, you know, it's not just Democr"}
{"id": "1079835695", "date": "2022-02-10", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "How Trump sought to use fake electors, conspiracy theories to remain in power", "question_index": 14, "text": "Martial law was Flynn idea.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So what Sidney Powell and her crew was basing this on was there were some executive orders under the Obama administration that said basically you had the right to preserve certain evidence after an el"}
{"id": "1079835695", "date": "2022-02-10", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "How Trump sought to use fake electors, conspiracy theories to remain in power", "question_index": 15, "text": "As you said, Trump and his allies didn't pursue the plan any further after a point, but that was only after the Pentagon, the Department of Homeland Security and the Justice Department declined to seize the voting machines. It's not like they didn't try really hard in the upper echelons of, you know, the American government and military.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct. And they wanted basically the National Guard to roll in to six or seven states, take control of all the voting machines, and do a recount on live TV by hand. They also - there was another pla"}
{"id": "1079835695", "date": "2022-02-10", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "How Trump sought to use fake electors, conspiracy theories to remain in power", "question_index": 16, "text": "So the January 6 committee is investigating Trump's role in the proposals to seize voting machines. We know that he gave it the green light. Do we know, like, did he make any of the phone calls himself or did he give that job to other people - the phone calls to the military, to the Homeland Security department, to the Justice Department?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's, I mean, it's truly shocking. I mean, when you think about it, it is absolutely - I mean, people - you know, people have been ringing alarm bells about Donald Trump and authoritarian tenden"}
{"id": "1079835695", "date": "2022-02-10", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "How Trump sought to use fake electors, conspiracy theories to remain in power", "question_index": 17, "text": "Do you think that Trump is legally vulnerable for his role in this plan to seize voting machines?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What we know is he asked Bill Barr directly about the Justice Department. And we know he asked Rudy Giuliani to call Homeland Security. So as with many things with former President Trump, he often lik"}
{"id": "1079835695", "date": "2022-02-10", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "How Trump sought to use fake electors, conspiracy theories to remain in power", "question_index": 18, "text": "What about conspiracy to overturn the results of an election? Is that a crime?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a good question. Merrick Garland has said that no one would be too high up the chain to investigate. That said, we haven't seen any evidence so far that the Justice Department is seriously look"}
{"id": "1079835695", "date": "2022-02-10", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "How Trump sought to use fake electors, conspiracy theories to remain in power", "question_index": 19, "text": "Let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Luke Broadwater. He's a congressional reporter for The New York Times. He's also been reporting on the House January 6 committee. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I'm not sure. The count that I think is most likely is to obstruct an official proceeding of Congress. The other thing that they're looking at is whether there was any fraud in terms of the "}
{"id": "1079835695", "date": "2022-02-10", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "How Trump sought to use fake electors, conspiracy theories to remain in power", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Luke Broadwater, a congressional reporter for The New York Times. He's been reporting on the January 6 committee, the House committee investigating the events of January 6 and the events leading up to it. One of the things that we recently learned is that Trump shredded a lot of documents, and there is a Presidential Papers Act that - it says presidents can't destroy their papers. They have to be preserved in the National Archives. So what do we know about what was in the papers that were destroyed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I'm not sure. The count that I think is most likely is to obstruct an official proceeding of Congress. The other thing that they're looking at is whether there was any fraud in terms of the "}
{"id": "1079835695", "date": "2022-02-10", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "How Trump sought to use fake electors, conspiracy theories to remain in power", "question_index": 21, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded yesterday with Luke Broadwater, a congressional reporter for The New York Times. After we recorded this interview, it was reported that the National Archives and Records Administration asked the Justice Department to look into Trump's handling of White House records after they found he'd torn up documents and took boxes of official papers to Mar-a-Lago. The National Archives suspects some of the materials might be classified. Let's get back to the interview. Some people have criticized the Justice Department and Merrick Garland in particular for not doing more to aggressively investigate or go after Donald Trump to get to the bottom of how he tried to interfere in the election. What have you been hearing about that? And what are your insights about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah, so President Trump had this habit dating back to his days as a businessman where he would rip up almost any document that would come into his possession. And you know, there were aides at "}
{"id": "1079835695", "date": "2022-02-10", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "How Trump sought to use fake electors, conspiracy theories to remain in power", "question_index": 22, "text": "So you're saying that the January 6 committee has concerns that if they recommend legal charges against members of Congress or against Trump or Pence, that it could look very politicized, that it could look like here's a democratically controlled House attacking its Republican opponents and trying to put them behind bars. But recently, former Republican Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich said that officials investigating the January 6 Capitol riot could be jailed if the Republicans regain control of Congress in the midterm election.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, so I mean, I know there's a good deal of frustration on Capitol Hill that there have not been more criminal charges to higher-ranking people resulting from January 6. When Merrick Garland was la"}
{"id": "1079835695", "date": "2022-02-10", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "How Trump sought to use fake electors, conspiracy theories to remain in power", "question_index": 23, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Luke Broadwater, a congressional reporter for The New York Times. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that was quite an extreme comment from the former speaker of the House. Liz Cheney immediately flagged it for how inappropriate it was. And it does stand in contrast to how the committee is doing"}
{"id": "1079835695", "date": "2022-02-10", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "How Trump sought to use fake electors, conspiracy theories to remain in power", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Luke Broadwater, a congressional reporter for The New York Times who's been covering the House committee investigating January 6 and the events leading up to it. You cover Congress. How do members of Congress from - you know, how the Democrats and Republicans possibly continue to work together? There is such animosity, and they are - you know, Democrats think that, you know, many Republicans just, like, violated the law, that they were part of a conspiracy to overturn the results of the election. Meanwhile, the Republicans are accusing, you know, Democrats on the committee of, you know, attacking people for legitimate political speech. Like, how can they possibly work together? I mean, I'm surprised they're not physically attacking each other. Things have gotten so extreme.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that was quite an extreme comment from the former speaker of the House. Liz Cheney immediately flagged it for how inappropriate it was. And it does stand in contrast to how the committee is doing"}
{"id": "1079835695", "date": "2022-02-10", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "How Trump sought to use fake electors, conspiracy theories to remain in power", "question_index": 25, "text": "Where were you in the Capitol on January 6, and how did you stay safe?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, and I think things are especially nasty on the House side. You know, the Senate does seem to have a better tradition of the two parties working together, and a lot of the centrists in the two pa"}
{"id": "1079835695", "date": "2022-02-10", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "How Trump sought to use fake electors, conspiracy theories to remain in power", "question_index": 26, "text": "I hadn't thought about that, about how reporting on January 6 could actually be triggering.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was in the Senate when the mob broke in. We were evacuated about one minute before they got in the chamber. I remember being escorted by police through the tunnel system, and, you know, in retrospec"}
{"id": "1079835695", "date": "2022-02-10", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "How Trump sought to use fake electors, conspiracy theories to remain in power", "question_index": 27, "text": "Well, Luke Broadwater, thank you so much for talking with us, and thank you for your reporting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean, the Times did this great video, \"Day Of Rage.\" And the visual investigation staff put it together, and they asked me to, like, go through it and, like, make sure facts were right and, yo"}
{"id": "1079835695", "date": "2022-02-10", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "How Trump sought to use fake electors, conspiracy theories to remain in power", "question_index": 28, "text": "Luke Broadwater is a congressional reporter for The New York Times. We recorded our interview yesterday. If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, like this week's interview with Jonny Greenwood, who is nominated for an Oscar this week for composing the score for \"The Power Of The Dog\" and also wrote the scores for the films \"There Will Be Blood,\" \"The Master\" and \"Phantom Thread\" and is lead guitarist for Radiohead, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having me."}
{"id": "1079835695", "date": "2022-02-10", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "How Trump sought to use fake electors, conspiracy theories to remain in power", "question_index": 29, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Kayla Lattimore. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Therese Madden directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having me."}
{"id": "1080086898", "date": "2022-02-11", "guest": "Todd Gitlin", "title": "Remembering activist Todd Gitlin, who helped lead the '60s antiwar movement", "question_index": 0, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One is that everything that happened was wonderful. Another is that everything that happened was catastrophic and ruined America."}
{"id": "1080086898", "date": "2022-02-11", "guest": "Todd Gitlin", "title": "Remembering activist Todd Gitlin, who helped lead the '60s antiwar movement", "question_index": 1, "text": "Is there a memory that crystallizes for you some of the commitment and excitement that you felt in the 1960s?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A third is that everyone was larger than life and strode through in an incendiary way, burning everything down. I call it the Big Bang Theory of history - the notion that everything happened at once. "}
{"id": "1080086898", "date": "2022-02-11", "guest": "Todd Gitlin", "title": "Remembering activist Todd Gitlin, who helped lead the '60s antiwar movement", "question_index": 2, "text": "Yeah, fine.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Many - I tried to organize the book around such moments. I'll just give you one that comes to mind."}
{"id": "1080086898", "date": "2022-02-11", "guest": "Todd Gitlin", "title": "Remembering activist Todd Gitlin, who helped lead the '60s antiwar movement", "question_index": 3, "text": "I want to get back to Chicago in a few minutes. Let me ask you first - you became the president of SDS when you were 22 years old.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know that it's more representative. I wrote about the Chicago street demonstrations in '68 at the Democratic Convention. And I - on the great day, when clouds of tear gas were spewing through "}
{"id": "1080086898", "date": "2022-02-11", "guest": "Todd Gitlin", "title": "Remembering activist Todd Gitlin, who helped lead the '60s antiwar movement", "question_index": 4, "text": "Oh, 20 years old.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Twenty."}
{"id": "1080086898", "date": "2022-02-11", "guest": "Todd Gitlin", "title": "Remembering activist Todd Gitlin, who helped lead the '60s antiwar movement", "question_index": 5, "text": "Even younger - looking back, do you ever think to yourself about how young you really were when you were the head of SDS?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Twenty and a half."}
{"id": "1080086898", "date": "2022-02-11", "guest": "Todd Gitlin", "title": "Remembering activist Todd Gitlin, who helped lead the '60s antiwar movement", "question_index": 6, "text": "Did you feel young at the time? Did you assume that you had a better kind of grasp of the world than, looking back, you think you really did?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "often. Yes, I have. What did I know?"}
{"id": "1080086898", "date": "2022-02-11", "guest": "Todd Gitlin", "title": "Remembering activist Todd Gitlin, who helped lead the '60s antiwar movement", "question_index": 7, "text": "Now, you were pretty full-time devoted to politics. And being the head of SDS meant a full-time commitment without pay, right? You didn't get paid for being the president, did you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Although I think, actually, I wasn't quite so dumb. And maybe I got dumber later, from time to time. But I had already maybe 2 1/2 years of political, three years of political experience at that"}
{"id": "1080086898", "date": "2022-02-11", "guest": "Todd Gitlin", "title": "Remembering activist Todd Gitlin, who helped lead the '60s antiwar movement", "question_index": 8, "text": "Yeah, right. So what I'm wondering is, did you or did a lot of your friends end up going to graduate school or staying around the universities so that you could stay committed to the political cause, which was so centered around student politics and university organizing? After a certain number of years, you're not a student anymore. And I think a lot of people became graduate students more to stay politically active than to attend graduate classes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Are you kidding?"}
{"id": "1080086898", "date": "2022-02-11", "guest": "Todd Gitlin", "title": "Remembering activist Todd Gitlin, who helped lead the '60s antiwar movement", "question_index": 9, "text": "Into the community.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's true in a sense. Although it's also true that in my generation in SDS, we had concluded by '65 - well, two things, actually. One was that we should all leave the campus and go out into the so-c"}
{"id": "1080086898", "date": "2022-02-11", "guest": "Todd Gitlin", "title": "Remembering activist Todd Gitlin, who helped lead the '60s antiwar movement", "question_index": 10, "text": "Tell the story of what - yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that was the first thing we did, was to try to organize an interracial movement of the poor. But also, we had in the back of our minds that SDS was only a student organization, and there ought t"}
{"id": "1080086898", "date": "2022-02-11", "guest": "Todd Gitlin", "title": "Remembering activist Todd Gitlin, who helped lead the '60s antiwar movement", "question_index": 11, "text": "Tell us, what are some of the things that they said to you when they - when the diggers crashed this meeting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We let them do it, amazingly enough."}
{"id": "1080086898", "date": "2022-02-11", "guest": "Todd Gitlin", "title": "Remembering activist Todd Gitlin, who helped lead the '60s antiwar movement", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, I think that that story really illustrates one of the themes of your new book, \"The Sixties,\" which is some of the conflicts between the cultural radicals and the political radicals.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they barged in, and they said, you know, you're a bunch of middle-class kids. And, you know, first they needed a lawyer because that - one of them had driven the car into a canal, so they needed"}
{"id": "1080086898", "date": "2022-02-11", "guest": "Todd Gitlin", "title": "Remembering activist Todd Gitlin, who helped lead the '60s antiwar movement", "question_index": 13, "text": "Do you think that there were conflicting goals between the political left and the cultural radicals?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. We often thought of trying to find a way to fuse or harness or marry the politicos and the hippies, and it was like the holy grail that everybody was looking for. And at various times, various "}
{"id": "1080086898", "date": "2022-02-11", "guest": "Todd Gitlin", "title": "Remembering activist Todd Gitlin, who helped lead the '60s antiwar movement", "question_index": 14, "text": "And hippies wanted immediate gratification.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. In fact, you could put it starkly. It would be a bit of an exaggeration, but you could put it starkly by saying that the politicos believed in creating something that was going to happen later, "}
{"id": "1080086898", "date": "2022-02-11", "guest": "Todd Gitlin", "title": "Remembering activist Todd Gitlin, who helped lead the '60s antiwar movement", "question_index": 15, "text": "Now, I found it interesting in your book, which has bits of autobiography interspersed, you say that you smoked your first joint about two years after you became the president of SDS. So really, political radicalism came first in your life, I mean, chronologically, first.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, and they wanted to shake it out, you know, express yourself. That was the other thing. Political radicals wanted to discipline themselves in order to make something else happen. And freaks wanted"}
{"id": "1080086898", "date": "2022-02-11", "guest": "Todd Gitlin", "title": "Remembering activist Todd Gitlin, who helped lead the '60s antiwar movement", "question_index": 16, "text": "Suspicious of you smoking?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's true. And a lot of the people in my crowd in SDS were very suspicious of that. And I think I also mentioned.."}
{"id": "1080086898", "date": "2022-02-11", "guest": "Todd Gitlin", "title": "Remembering activist Todd Gitlin, who helped lead the '60s antiwar movement", "question_index": 17, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Dope, yeah. And I remember at a party during the SDS convention in '67, when I was a little high, and a quite well-known leader of SDS came into a room where I was being that way. And I was having tro"}
{"id": "1080086898", "date": "2022-02-11", "guest": "Todd Gitlin", "title": "Remembering activist Todd Gitlin, who helped lead the '60s antiwar movement", "question_index": 18, "text": "So even the conflicts between the politicos and the hippies were happening inside of you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I had this crackpot idea that I should make up a leaflet that alerted potential banana peel smokers that, in fact, the people who picked bananas in Guatemala make 2 cents a day or something like t"}
{"id": "1080086898", "date": "2022-02-11", "guest": "Todd Gitlin", "title": "Remembering activist Todd Gitlin, who helped lead the '60s antiwar movement", "question_index": 19, "text": "That's right. That's right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And in many people, in fact."}
{"id": "1080086898", "date": "2022-02-11", "guest": "Todd Gitlin", "title": "Remembering activist Todd Gitlin, who helped lead the '60s antiwar movement", "question_index": 20, "text": "Let's talk about confrontational politics, which was one of the really major issues for the new left in the 1960s. And I'd like to go back to Chicago, which was the location of one of the first stories that you told during our interview. You described being in Chicago during the convention with tear gas in the streets, and it was a time when you really - when people were forced to decide what their tactics were, if they were comfortable with confrontation, if they were comfortable with violence, if they were willing to be tear-gassed, if they were going to wait inside until that blew over. You write in your book that you had no illusions of being a street fighter, that you were somewhere in between not believing in it and not feeling tough enough. And I thought, well, that is probably such a typical feeling that so many people had, the kind of ambivalence that they felt about the confrontational tactics that were happening.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's return to Terry's 1987 interview with Todd Gitlin. The author, scholar and activist died Saturday at age 79."}
{"id": "1080086898", "date": "2022-02-11", "guest": "Todd Gitlin", "title": "Remembering activist Todd Gitlin, who helped lead the '60s antiwar movement", "question_index": 21, "text": "Because you felt that working within the system had failed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was, and that - what I said there was true. I think that I always - I did hate violence, and I never perpetrated any. On the other hand, you felt constantly that if you weren't going to do "}
{"id": "1080086898", "date": "2022-02-11", "guest": "Todd Gitlin", "title": "Remembering activist Todd Gitlin, who helped lead the '60s antiwar movement", "question_index": 22, "text": "Well, the confrontational tactics of the left brought about more police repression, more tear gas, more billy-clubbing of protesters. But there was a shared feeling that this kind of repression was a good exercise in education about how repressive the government could really be. And you, for instance, say during Chicago that you were thinking, well, at least we've shown they can only rule at gunpoint. Do you want to explain that kind of thinking?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we felt we were getting nowhere. And in fact, we were actually just looking at our impact on the war. We were actually having an impact on the war that we didn't understand, and part of the reas"}
{"id": "1080086898", "date": "2022-02-11", "guest": "Todd Gitlin", "title": "Remembering activist Todd Gitlin, who helped lead the '60s antiwar movement", "question_index": 23, "text": "Was writing this book an important personal experience for you? Do you feel that you've reconciled some things for yourself in having written it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's so hard to recreate it, and I had to plunge back into that mood in order to write about it. But in a way, it seems not to make any sense. I think we felt that we were involved in a project "}
{"id": "1080086898", "date": "2022-02-11", "guest": "Todd Gitlin", "title": "Remembering activist Todd Gitlin, who helped lead the '60s antiwar movement", "question_index": 24, "text": "Can I ask you in a couple of seconds to tell what one of the things that it settled for you was?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I actually do. I know that sounds a little pat, but it was not easy. It was painful in many places. It was sometimes hard. It was hard to crack into some of the old feelings and observations, and once"}
{"id": "1080095967", "date": "2022-02-11", "guest": "Art Spiegelman", "title": "'Maus' author Art Spiegelman shares the story behind his Pulitzer-winning work", "question_index": 0, "text": "When did you first become aware that your parents were survivors?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "People are usually very upset when they first hear that I've done a comic strip about the Holocaust. Like, just too - it's an oxymoron somewhere in there, and people just don't want to hear any more a"}
{"id": "1080095967", "date": "2022-02-11", "guest": "Art Spiegelman", "title": "'Maus' author Art Spiegelman shares the story behind his Pulitzer-winning work", "question_index": 1, "text": "But before you sat down and actually said to your father, tell me the story of how you survived, had he actually told you anecdotes about his survival during the war?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I can't remember not knowing it, but on the other hand, I can't remember it ever being a significant fact. It was just one more thing that I knew about my parents. So that when I was a little ki"}
{"id": "1080095967", "date": "2022-02-11", "guest": "Art Spiegelman", "title": "'Maus' author Art Spiegelman shares the story behind his Pulitzer-winning work", "question_index": 2, "text": "I got the impression that you were frequently taught grim lessons about life based on your parents' experiences during the Holocaust.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, but the same way that some other person my age's parents might have told them about life in the Depression, you know? Oh, it was really hard back then. And the anecdote would just glimmer in"}
{"id": "1080095967", "date": "2022-02-11", "guest": "Art Spiegelman", "title": "'Maus' author Art Spiegelman shares the story behind his Pulitzer-winning work", "question_index": 3, "text": "Did you have Nazi dreams when you were growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that was something I didn't know until I left home. It's true. What would happen is these stories, which really haunted me, I didn't know were haunting me because they were what I was breathing."}
{"id": "1080095967", "date": "2022-02-11", "guest": "Art Spiegelman", "title": "'Maus' author Art Spiegelman shares the story behind his Pulitzer-winning work", "question_index": 4, "text": "You didn't have dreams where you were chased by Nazis.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I - see, one thing - I guess one thing that haunted me when I was growing up was this one blown-up photograph. It was a photograph that was originally just maybe two inches by two inches, but it"}
{"id": "1080095967", "date": "2022-02-11", "guest": "Art Spiegelman", "title": "'Maus' author Art Spiegelman shares the story behind his Pulitzer-winning work", "question_index": 5, "text": "When you approached your father and sat him down and said, you know, tell me chronologically all the details you can remember from the war and from surviving the Nazis, was it hard for him to talk about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I've probably had many, you know. Any older kid that I was having trouble with would immediately have a swastika on his arm, you know."}
{"id": "1080095967", "date": "2022-02-11", "guest": "Art Spiegelman", "title": "'Maus' author Art Spiegelman shares the story behind his Pulitzer-winning work", "question_index": 6, "text": "One of the things that really struck me in \"Maus\" was that every time he'd finish telling you this story about narrowly surviving some horrible thing, whether it's at a prisoner of war camp or being hidden away in a bunker in somebody's cellar who was protecting him or, you know, trying to pass for gentile, he'd come out of the story and he'd say something really petty, you know, like, criticize you for smoking or what you were wearing or something. Can you tell the coat story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not especially, although when I was growing up, my mother was more voluble than my father on the subject. And yet when I came back as an adult, he was rather giving of it. It wasn't a problem. And in "}
{"id": "1080095967", "date": "2022-02-11", "guest": "Art Spiegelman", "title": "'Maus' author Art Spiegelman shares the story behind his Pulitzer-winning work", "question_index": 7, "text": "I kept thinking that just at the moment when you would be feeling tenderness towards your father and realizing the hell that he had survived, that he'd do something really manipulative like that, like throwing out the coat that you really love so he could give you his Naugahyde parka or something. And, I mean, how would you reconcile that? I mean, what you're supposed to do - like, the way it's supposed to be is that you find out your father's life story, all the hostilities of the past are erased, tenderness takes over, you embrace each other, you understand each other, and you reconcile.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, the coat story. After my father finished telling me the story one day, I just went to get my coat to leave, and I couldn't find it. So I was kind of walking around asking my stepmother if she had "}
{"id": "1080095967", "date": "2022-02-11", "guest": "Art Spiegelman", "title": "'Maus' author Art Spiegelman shares the story behind his Pulitzer-winning work", "question_index": 8, "text": "Your father also always complains about money, that his second wife just wants his money, she wants to rewrite his will, everybody's out to get him. And you write in \"Maus\" at one point - you write, it's something that worries me about the book I'm doing. In some ways, he's just like the racist caricature of the miserly Jew. Did you ever think, oh, well, maybe I should try to present him in a more positive light.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It actually leads to a larger issue for me, which has to do with sentiment in literature and especially in this kind of literature. It's actually one of the banes of so-called Holocaust literature tha"}
{"id": "1080095967", "date": "2022-02-11", "guest": "Art Spiegelman", "title": "'Maus' author Art Spiegelman shares the story behind his Pulitzer-winning work", "question_index": 9, "text": "You almost describe yourself as a prisoner in your home in some of your work. Did you ever feel like, oh, it's trivial to feel that you are living as a prisoner or that life is hell when you're not living through the war? This isn't really the Holocaust, you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, of course. I just would never do it. But of course, I'd think it - not even just portray him but in general, try to tailor the story to my own ideological bent or interests. And I just - it's just"}
{"id": "1080095967", "date": "2022-02-11", "guest": "Art Spiegelman", "title": "'Maus' author Art Spiegelman shares the story behind his Pulitzer-winning work", "question_index": 10, "text": "You're living a middle-class life, you know? Is it -", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1080095967", "date": "2022-02-11", "guest": "Art Spiegelman", "title": "'Maus' author Art Spiegelman shares the story behind his Pulitzer-winning work", "question_index": 11, "text": "are you, you know, overexaggerating or, you know, indulging yourself to feel that way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1081680509", "date": "2022-02-18", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 0, "text": "Penelope Cruz, welcome to FRESH AIR. I love this film. I love your performance in it and your performance in so many other films as well. So thank you for coming on our show.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University in New Jersey, in for Terry Gross. Penelope Cruz is nominated for an Oscar for her starring role in \"Paralle"}
{"id": "1081680509", "date": "2022-02-18", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 1, "text": "You have two children. What did you discuss with Almodovar about how to portray the birth scene at the beginning of the film, which is such an important scene that kind of sets the tone for the rest of the film?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much."}
{"id": "1081680509", "date": "2022-02-18", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 2, "text": "The movie also portrays just, like, the physical bond between a mother and her child and the experience of, like, touching a newborn baby and then continuing to, like, hold the baby after you take the baby home and what that feels, like, the touch. How do you express that on camera? How do you express that emotion, that - it's so interior.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we discussed a lot about it because it's true that Pedro is very open to the process being a collaboration. And especially in that case since he has never given birth, he was asking questions to"}
{"id": "1081680509", "date": "2022-02-18", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 3, "text": "Yeah, whose baby was it? I always wonder, how do you get infants for a movie?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, but it's the strongest feeling that I have experienced. And it's true that when we were shooting and I saw the face of this little baby that was so tiny, of course, in that moment I revisit all "}
{"id": "1081680509", "date": "2022-02-18", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 4, "text": "So I want to quote something that Pedro Almodovar says in the press kit for \"Parallel Mothers.\" He said - and I quote - directing her - Penelope Cruz - \"directing her has been a meticulous process where I needed her to surrender herself to me, as if in a state of hypnosis. I contained the flood of tears. Penelope is very emotional, and she would have been crying from start to finish. And she knew how to replace the tears with the exact amount of guilt and shame in a state of constant alarm.\" What does it mean when he says he wanted you to surrender yourself to him as if in a state of hypnosis?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well - yeah. And that baby was 1-month-old, but it was very tiny, so it looked like a few days old. And the mother - and the mother and the father of all these babies that are in the movie, they were "}
{"id": "1081680509", "date": "2022-02-18", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 5, "text": "I want to talk with you about another theme in the movie, and that is a much more political theme, and it has to do with reckoning with the legacy of the Spanish Civil War, in which the fascists won, leading to a decades-long dictatorship of Francisco Franco. How political was your family when you were growing up? Because you were born the year before Franco died. So you didn't live under his dictatorship, but your family did, and everybody older than you did.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview from last December with actress Penelope Cruz. She stars in Pedro Almodovar's \"Parallel Mothers\" and has been nominated for an Oscar as best actr"}
{"id": "1081680509", "date": "2022-02-18", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was born in '74. And I mean, the rest of the '70s - too young to remember. But in the '80s, there was really, like, a feeling in the year of, like, chance for freedom, freedom of expression. Like, w"}
{"id": "1081680509", "date": "2022-02-18", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yeah. Can I just interrupt and say that he was part of - he was a major part of what was known as La Movida, which was, like, the movement. And this was, like, after Franco's death, when artists were no longer going to be censored, there was this, like, outburst of new creative, lively art that - my understanding is - I know when I talked to Antonio Banderas, who's also worked with Almodovar, he talked about how this movement had, like, punk rock and sexuality, joy, color, LGBTQ characters, and Almodovar was famous for that. You know, he was one of the first filmmakers to have LGBTQ characters being just people, not like - this is a problem, or this is an issue. They were just, like, people in the film.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would remember, like, being a little girl and seeing him also as some kind of political figure because it was so necessary to have somebody like that in those years, that through art and through his"}
{"id": "1081680509", "date": "2022-02-18", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 8, "text": "You wanted to meet Almodovar so badly. You wanted to be in his films. You used to - when you were young - I don't know how old. You can tell me. You used to stand outside of his home, I guess, hoping to catch a glimpse of him. Did you see him when you would - how old were you - did you see him when you were doing that? And did he see you? Did he think you were a stalker?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. And that's maybe what I mean by that, that even if I was not part of La Movida, and Movida was - a part of it was really crazy. But there was something else behind it that was his message and"}
{"id": "1081680509", "date": "2022-02-18", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 9, "text": "So in Almodovar's film \"Pain And Glory,\" you play the mother of a boy who becomes an acclaimed filmmaker in Spain. And there's a twist on that, which I won't give away. It's a wonderful movie, and I want people to see the surprises in the movie as they unfold. But mothers so often figure into his films. And he seems to just have such deep emotions about mothers and, I assume, about his mother. Did you meet his mother when you were playing his mother?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I mean, the first time, I was really obsessed with his films, so sometimes I would go to the cinema or to a bar, to a place. And I would say to my friends, you're going to see - we're going to see"}
{"id": "1081680509", "date": "2022-02-18", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 10, "text": "You studied ballet for many years. You know, I think of ballet as being so traditional and with a lot of things that you have to conform to. You have to do the steps a certain way. A lot of ballet teachers want your hair to be a certain way and your body to be a certain way - and the contrast between that and, say, Almodovar's films where there is so many - such a wide range of characters who don't conform to social rules. And he loves those characters for that. So it sounds like two opposite ends of culture.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, because she was not with us anymore, unfortunately. But I met her many years ago when they were giving an award to Pedro, and we all went to the ceremony with him. And of course, I tried to spend "}
{"id": "1081680509", "date": "2022-02-18", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 11, "text": "You initially came to the U.S. to study English. Was it hard to learn it? English is a - I think, a very difficult language, has all these rules. But it's all these exceptions to the rule. So it's often, like, not helpful.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, but I think if I wouldn't have had that background and that discipline of the world of ballet, classical ballet, I don't know how I would have handled some of the pressure of some of the movies,"}
{"id": "1081680509", "date": "2022-02-18", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", I was always fighting with all the teachers. That was the thing that was driving me crazy at the beginning. But no, why? Explain to me why. What is the logic?"}
{"id": "1081680509", "date": "2022-02-18", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 13, "text": "So you're married to Javier Bardem, and you're both in new movies now. You're, of course, in \"Parallel Mothers,\" and he's in \"Being The Ricardos\" playing Desi Arnaz. So how did you first meet? Did you meet on set?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I love this language, so - I just love languages. I love them so much, and I hope I can learn many more."}
{"id": "1081680509", "date": "2022-02-18", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 14, "text": "You haven't been married nearly that long", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1081680509", "date": "2022-02-18", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 15, "text": ". How many years after you met did you become a couple?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1081680509", "date": "2022-02-18", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 16, "text": "Have you worked together since becoming a couple?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no. We've been together, like, 15 years, but we know each other for - you know, we'd been friends before that."}
{"id": "1081680509", "date": "2022-02-18", "guest": "Penelope Cruz", "title": "Pen\u00e9lope Cruz says just reading the script for 'Parallel Mothers' left her in tears", "question_index": 17, "text": "Well, I want to thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We love working together but not something that I would want to do every year. That is, like - once in a while. But I think he's such an incredible actor. I love working with him. And of course, it ma"}
{"id": "1082297385", "date": "2022-02-22", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Julie Otsuka, is an acclaimed novelist who's drawn on her experiences as a Japanese American. Before I tell you about her new novel, let me tell you about her first two. \"When The Emperor Was Divine\" is based on the experiences of her mother, uncle and grandparents when they were forced into Japanese American incarceration camps during World War II. Her book \"The Buddha In The Attic,\" which won the PEN/Faulkner Award for Fiction, is a historical novel about the women known as picture brides. These were women in the early 20th century who emigrated to America from Japan the only way they legally could, by marrying a man who was already living here. Working through matchmakers, the would-be husbands and wives knew each other only from photos. When the women arrived and met their future husbands, they typically realized they were deceived in one way or another. Otsuka's new novel, \"The Swimmers,\" starts off in a pool where people go for temporary escape from their problems. One of the women is in the early stages of dementia. In the second half of the novel, her dementia has progressed to the point where she's in a facility. Her daughter, who's in her 40s and has been geographically and emotionally distant, returns to see her mother. Otsuka takes inventory of the disappeared and remaining memories, describes life in a facility after living with a husband for 40 years in a three-bedroom home and considers the daughter's sense of guilt. As you'll hear, Otsuka has a very distinctive style of writing. Julie Otsuka, welcome to FRESH AIR. I love your writing, so I'm very glad you're here. I want to start with a reading from the first page of \"The Swimmers,\" your new novel, because I want our listeners to hear your style of writing and how the accumulation of detail just kind of keeps building through the book. So would you read the opening for us?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1082297385", "date": "2022-02-22", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Talk with us a little bit about this almost inventory style of writing that you have, where it's almost like lists and paragraph form, you know, just, like details that keep building and building into a larger picture. And I find myself when I read your writing going, yeah, yeah, that's right. Oh, I know that. Yes. Oh, that's so true.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure, I'd be happy to. (Reading) The pool is located deep underground in a large, cavernous chamber many feet beneath the streets of our town. Some of us come here because we are injured and need to h"}
{"id": "1082297385", "date": "2022-02-22", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 2, "text": "It's like this checklist of things that I know, but I haven't necessarily expressed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure, I'd be happy to. (Reading) The pool is located deep underground in a large, cavernous chamber many feet beneath the streets of our town. Some of us come here because we are injured and need to h"}
{"id": "1082297385", "date": "2022-02-22", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 3, "text": "So as we heard in the reading, one of the swimmers, Alice, is in the early stages of dementia. And as the novel progresses, she loses more and more of her memory until she's moved to a facility. Your mother died of dementia-related causes. Was it frontotemporal dementia like in the book?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's funny. I don't aim to be a list maker, but I think that my way of apprehending the world is actually through detail. I think that's just how I put together the big picture. I think that's just ju"}
{"id": "1082297385", "date": "2022-02-22", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Yeah. In the book, you describe it as being very rare. What is it? How does it compare to Alzheimer's, just so we understand what's going on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was. And it was Pick's disease, which is a form of frontotemporal dementia."}
{"id": "1082297385", "date": "2022-02-22", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Could you tell that it was happening? Because that's one of the questions in the book. You know, like, for example, like, a crack appears in the pool that the swimmers go to. And the people wonder, you know, many of us remain anxious because the truth is we don't know what it is or what it means or if it has any meaning at all. Maybe the crack is just a crack, nothing more, nothing less. Maybe it's a rupture, a chasm. How deep is it? Who's to blame for it? Can we reverse it? And most importantly, why us? It's no coincidence, I'm sure, that those questions are the questions we ask when symptoms begin to appear. Like, does this have any meaning? Is it serious? Is it nothing? Am I exaggerating? If it's a problem, like, what or who is to blame for it? And, you know, and why me? Why us? Why is this happening to us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, for one thing, the onset can be much, much earlier. So I think for my mother, she might have even manifested symptoms in her 50s, definitely in her 60s, although I think it was hard for us to re"}
{"id": "1082297385", "date": "2022-02-22", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 6, "text": "What would have been different had you gotten an earlier diagnosis? It's not like it's a reversable...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's sometimes hardest for the people closest to the person who's suffering from dementia to see what is happening. I think there's a lot of denial going on, probably in the early years. But I"}
{"id": "1082297385", "date": "2022-02-22", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 7, "text": "That's a big difference.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nothing, probably. Nothing. Although I guess the one thing that could have been different is that we might have had a little bit more compassion for her early on."}
{"id": "1082297385", "date": "2022-02-22", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 8, "text": "You know, in the novel, when so many memories are starting to disappear, one of the things the mother remembers is being sent to a Japanese American incarceration camp when she was young, when she was a child. Did your mother hang on to that memory when others were disappearing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a huge difference. It's difficult to live with somebody whose personality is changing and is - you know, to a certain point, they're not the person that you remember. But they can't help it. But "}
{"id": "1082297385", "date": "2022-02-22", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Before being forced into the camp?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She did. Those memories for her were very strong. They they remained with her till - you know, till close to the end of her life. And I think it's probably because they're childhood memories, and thos"}
{"id": "1082297385", "date": "2022-02-22", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 10, "text": "What was the story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The day before they had to leave, yeah. And she just began to tell that story over and over and over again. And I hadn't heard that story before. I mean, perhaps my father had. I'm not sure. ***"}
{"id": "1082297385", "date": "2022-02-22", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Did the teacher explain why she was going away?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "that her teacher asked her to stand up and then told everyone in the class that Haruko - was my mother's Japanese name - would be leaving the next day, and would they please tell her goodbye? So the e"}
{"id": "1082297385", "date": "2022-02-22", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 12, "text": "In the novel, you write, she remembers to warn her daughter at the end of every phone call that the FBI will check up on you soon.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I don't know. It's a really good question. I wish that I'd asked my mother that when she was still lucid. I don't know. I mean, I often wonder, what did that teacher say to her students? Do "}
{"id": "1082297385", "date": "2022-02-22", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 13, "text": "How does the FBI figure into your family's story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1082297385", "date": "2022-02-22", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Was he considered a serious enemy alien because he worked for a Japanese company?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My grandfather was arrested by the FBI on December 8, 1941, so the day after Pearl Harbor was bombed. He went to work. He worked for a Japanese-owned mercantile company. And he never came home. So he "}
{"id": "1082297385", "date": "2022-02-22", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Did you get to meet him or your grandmother?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was a leader in the Japanese American community, a business leader. So he was fairly prominent. So those were the men who were rounded up first, you know, just as a way, really of, I mean, all the "}
{"id": "1082297385", "date": "2022-02-22", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 16, "text": "Was your grandfather able to work after being called a traitor?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, he died when I was 8. And grandmother, she lived to be almost 101, so I knew her for many, many years. And my memories of him are as a very, very gentle man. He never talked about what had h"}
{"id": "1082297385", "date": "2022-02-22", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Is traitor the right word? And an enemy alien, I think, is what you said.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "1082297385", "date": "2022-02-22", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 18, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is novelist Julie Otsuka. Her new novel is called \"The Swimmers.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. No. They're synonymous, I think, or at least in the eye of the government. Well, he was not - the reason that he was not able to work after the war was not necessarily because of what he'd been "}
{"id": "1082297385", "date": "2022-02-22", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Julie Otsuka, author of the novels \"The Buddha In The Attic,\" \"When The Emperor Was Divine\" and the new novel \"The Swimmers.\" So there wasn't much you were able to learn from your grandparents. What about your mother? How old was she when she was incarcerated? And what stories did she tell?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. No. They're synonymous, I think, or at least in the eye of the government. Well, he was not - the reason that he was not able to work after the war was not necessarily because of what he'd been "}
{"id": "1082297385", "date": "2022-02-22", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 20, "text": "So why did your grandmother want to burn her husband's letters?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, I want to say one thing I did learn from my grandfather, but years later, after he died, was that we found this cache of letters that he'd written to his wife and children during the first y"}
{"id": "1082297385", "date": "2022-02-22", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 21, "text": "What do these artifacts mean to you - the letters, the bridal veil?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that she might have felt that they were dangerous to have around. She might have felt shame that he had been labeled a spy, basically a dangerous enemy alien. Or she could have treasured them "}
{"id": "1082297385", "date": "2022-02-22", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 22, "text": "When your family came back after the war was over, did they still have their home?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, the letters, to me, they were like gold. It was like opening a window into my grandfather's past and just seeing a side of him that I'd never seen before. And I used them when I began to write"}
{"id": "1082297385", "date": "2022-02-22", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 23, "text": "People had broken in and stolen things?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They did. They were very fortunate because most Japanese could not own property by law. So - but my grandfather, I think he bought his home in his children's name, and they were American born and, the"}
{"id": "1082297385", "date": "2022-02-22", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 24, "text": "So I want you to read another paragraph from your book, and this is about, you know, wondering what caused the dementia. Was it something in the environment, something we did? And this is also written in the style that you have become known for, which is an accumulation of details that paint a larger picture and are very just kind of revealing in their specificity. So if you could read this paragraph for us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "who had promised to rent out the house for them while they were away, but he was a crook, and so they never saw any of the rent money. Many people lived there, obviously, while they were gone. So the "}
{"id": "1082297385", "date": "2022-02-22", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Thanks for reading that. That's Julie Otsuka reading from her new novel \"The Swimmers.\" Well, let's take another short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is novelist Julie Otsuka. Her new novel is called \"The Swimmers.\" We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) What was it, you wonder, that first made her begin to forget? Was it the chemical in the hair dye that once turned her scalp bright red for two weeks? Was it something toxic in the hair spra"}
{"id": "1082297385", "date": "2022-02-22", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Julie Otsuka. Her new novel, \"The Swimmers,\" is about a woman losing her memories and her life to dementia and about her relationship with her daughter, who has been geographically and emotionally distant. Otsuka is the author of two previous novels. \"The Buddha In The Attic\" is about Japanese picture brides, women in Japan in the early 1900s who came to America the only way they legally could, by marrying a man already living here. These marriages were arranged with the help of matchmakers based on photos that the would-be bride and groom were shown of each other. \"When The Emperor Was Divine,\" based on her family history, is about Japanese Americans who were forced into Japanese American incarceration camps during World War II. Your novel \"The Buddha In The Attic\" is about the Japanese women known as picture brides. Can you describe what made somebody a picture bride? Like, who were the picture brides?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) What was it, you wonder, that first made her begin to forget? Was it the chemical in the hair dye that once turned her scalp bright red for two weeks? Was it something toxic in the hair spra"}
{"id": "1082297385", "date": "2022-02-22", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 27, "text": "This is the early 1900s.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were young women, often in their teens, who often lived in very, very poor villages. Japan, back then, was a - it was a very poor country."}
{"id": "1082297385", "date": "2022-02-22", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 28, "text": "And I think the women were only allowed to emigrate to the United States if they married somebody who was already living here.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "in place of their own. So often, you know, the women were shocked to see the man who stood in front of them when they got off the boat."}
{"id": "1082297385", "date": "2022-02-22", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 29, "text": "There's a lot of hardship in that book that the women face after they've come here. They are expecting a better life, and most of them face real hardship. What are some of the things you learned about the conditions faced by women who were picture brides?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct. Yeah, they could not just leave on their own without a husband on the other end."}
{"id": "1082297385", "date": "2022-02-22", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 30, "text": "And for some of them, it was very sexually hazardous, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it was really - for many of them, it was just a life of really, really harsh, physical labor. I mean, two or three days after arriving in America on the boat - you know, there was no honeymoon. "}
{"id": "1082297385", "date": "2022-02-22", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 31, "text": "When you were writing \"The Buddha In The Attic,\" did you meet the grandchildren or great-grandchildren of picture brides?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, some of them ran away. You know, not a lot, but some of them did run away from their husbands and became prostitutes. And, you know, many of them were not happy with their husbands. And yet most"}
{"id": "1082297385", "date": "2022-02-22", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 32, "text": "For some of these women, after coming here and living this really hard life and getting a foothold in America, then during World War II, they're put into Japanese American, you know, incarceration camps. I'm thinking of how crushing it must be to come to this strange place with the hope of a better life to face, like, really hard work, really tough conditions, not understanding the culture or the language and then to be incarcerated as the enemy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, when I was on book tour for my first book, \"When The Emperor Was Divine,\" I was touring a lot on the West Coast, and I would give readings. And afterwards, people would come up to me in the "}
{"id": "1082297385", "date": "2022-02-22", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 33, "text": "What do you know about how your grandparents first came to the U.S.?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", that - you know, this is what happened, and you just - and you move on. So, you know, we're not really complainers. So even though - I mean, people had many, many different responses, I think, to be"}
{"id": "1082297385", "date": "2022-02-22", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 34, "text": "It sounds like she defected from the family.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my grandmother, her father was a Methodist minister in Japan. So he came to America in, I think, 1927 for the World Sunday School Conference. And my grandmother was one of, I think, six daughter"}
{"id": "1082297385", "date": "2022-02-22", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 35, "text": "And then, of course, like we said, you know, she spends - what? - three years in a Japanese American incarceration camp. But she still appreciated America after that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She did. She bolted."}
{"id": "1082297385", "date": "2022-02-22", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 36, "text": "Julie Otsuka, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure talking with you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She did, much to, you know, our surprise. She - you know, she didn't sound bitter. I mean, she was just tough. You know, life was - I mean, life - I mean, she was born in 1900, right? So, you know, li"}
{"id": "1082297385", "date": "2022-02-22", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 37, "text": "Julie Otsuka's new novel is called \"The Swimmers.\" After we take a short break, Maureen Corrigan will review the new novel \"Vladimir\" about sexual politics on the college campus. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much, Terry. It's been wonderful speaking with you."}
{"id": "1083686062", "date": "2022-03-01", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Russia's invasion of Ukraine has already changed the world as we know it", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. In the battle between autocracy and democracy, between dictatorship and freedom, Ukraine is now the front line and our front line, writes my guest, Anne Applebaum. She's a journalist and historian who has spent the past few years writing about authoritarian governments focusing on Eastern European countries and their leader's ties to Vladimir Putin. She's been writing about Russia's invasion of Ukraine for The Atlantic, where she's a staff writer. She's also written about the history of conflicts between the Kremlin and Ukraine. Her book \"Red Famine\" is about the Famine in Ukraine that was created by Stalin in the early 1930s in his attempt to destroy the Ukrainian national movement. Nearly 4 million Ukrainians died. Soviet secret police simultaneously carried out mass arrests of Ukrainian intellectual, cultural, religious and political leaders, and exiled many of them to remote parts of the Soviet Union. She writes that the famine and its legacy play an enormous role in contemporary Russian and Ukrainian arguments. Applebaum is also the author of the book \"Twilight Of Democracy: The Seductive Lure Of Authoritarianism.\" She lives in London and Poland. Her husband is a representative in the European Parliament from the Polish opposition party. She's also a senior fellow at the Johns Hopkins University School of Advanced International Studies, where she runs a program researching disinformation and polarization. Just a note before we start - because we pre-record our interviews and our show is played at different times of day on different stations, the news may have changed by the time you hear this. But this interview is to help better understand the history behind Russia's invasion of Ukraine and the Ukrainians' fierce resistance. Anne Applebaum, welcome back to FRESH AIR. I appreciate your time. I know how busy you are keeping up with events and keeping up with the people who you know in Ukraine. I know you have friends and associates in Ukraine. What are you hearing from them, and how are people deciding whether to flee or to fight?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1083686062", "date": "2022-03-01", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Russia's invasion of Ukraine has already changed the world as we know it", "question_index": 1, "text": "You think the support Ukraine is getting from around the world is a turning point. What is this turning point saying to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So nobody I know is fleeing. My friends and acquaintances are staying. Some of them will be volunteering for the territorial army if they haven't done it already. Others are journalists and observers "}
{"id": "1083686062", "date": "2022-03-01", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Russia's invasion of Ukraine has already changed the world as we know it", "question_index": 2, "text": "Let's talk about why Putin has invaded Ukraine. Ukraine is very important to Putin. Part of it is his fear of democracy on his border. Why is he so fearful of Ukrainian democracy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's a reflection of the amazing change in the perception of Ukrainians that has taken place over literally the past week. You know, it's a country people don't know well because they didn't h"}
{"id": "1083686062", "date": "2022-03-01", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Russia's invasion of Ukraine has already changed the world as we know it", "question_index": 3, "text": "After the authoritarian leader of Ukraine who was allied with Putin fled the country and elections proceeded that, that's when Putin invaded Crimea and claimed it as Russian. So this is kind of a repeat of that, but in a much larger way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Putin sees Ukraine in a number of contexts, and I'm sure we'll get to that. But one of the ways in which he perceives Ukraine is that he sees it as a kind of ideological enemy. Remember what happened "}
{"id": "1083686062", "date": "2022-03-01", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Russia's invasion of Ukraine has already changed the world as we know it", "question_index": 4, "text": "When the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, that was cause for celebration in many parts of Russia and around the world. And as you've said, you know, Putin was not part of that celebration. He was with the KGB at the time, and he is still in mourning for the collapse of the Soviet Union and wants to restore some of that to its former, in his mind, glory. So how do you think that figures into his invasion of Ukraine?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So the invasion of Crimea was a punishment for Ukraine. It was a kind of saying, you know, you don't get to decide about your country. And then, of course, he invaded Eastern Ukraine with - he c"}
{"id": "1083686062", "date": "2022-03-01", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Russia's invasion of Ukraine has already changed the world as we know it", "question_index": 5, "text": "Everything you've said that Putin wants, he's getting the opposite right now because of the invasion.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So that's the other part of the picture is that Putin, ever since 1989, when he was a KGB officer in Dresden and from there witnessed the fall of the Berlin Wall and the end of East Germany and the en"}
{"id": "1083686062", "date": "2022-03-01", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Russia's invasion of Ukraine has already changed the world as we know it", "question_index": 6, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Anne Applebaum. She's a journalist, a staff writer for The Atlantic and a historian. Her books include \"The Twilight Of Democracy: The Seductive Allure Of Authoritarianism\" and \"Red Famine: Stalin's War On Ukraine.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's one of the great ironies. You know, one of the reasons Ukraine consolidated over the last eight years since since 2014 and one of the reasons why it's been growing stronger as a state and"}
{"id": "1083686062", "date": "2022-03-01", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Russia's invasion of Ukraine has already changed the world as we know it", "question_index": 7, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview that we recorded with Anne Applebaum. She's a journalist and historian. She's a staff writer for The Atlantic, where she's been writing about the fighting between Ukraine and Russia and the history behind Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Her books include \"Twilight Of Democracy: The Seductive Lure Of Authoritarianism\" and \"Red Famine: Stalin's War On Ukraine.\" I'm now going to ask you a question I'm sure you can't answer, but I'd like you to just reflect on it for a moment if you have anything to say about it. You know, Putin has actually poisoned some of his enemies with this radioactive poison. And I just keep thinking, is there anybody in his inner circle who thinks he has really gone too far to the detriment of Russia and who's going to try to use that same kind of poison on Putin to kill Putin and eradicate him as a threat to Russia? And along the same lines, I'm also wondering if there's anybody in his inner circle who would, now that the country's on nuclear alert, who would defy the order to use a nuclear weapon if Putin actually gave that order?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's one of the great ironies. You know, one of the reasons Ukraine consolidated over the last eight years since since 2014 and one of the reasons why it's been growing stronger as a state and"}
{"id": "1083686062", "date": "2022-03-01", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Russia's invasion of Ukraine has already changed the world as we know it", "question_index": 8, "text": "I've been thinking a lot about the last time we spoke, when you were writing about authoritarian governments and how they kind of have their own network of helping and supporting each other. It's like a new kind of authoritarianism that circumvents a lot of the condemnation of the rest of the world. They can support each other financially. They can trade with each other. And that also limits the effectiveness of sanctions. So in the club, if I may use that word - in the club of dictators and authoritarian rulers who help each other loot their countries and stay in power, what are you learning from which countries are supporting Putin and which are kind of backing away? For example, China abstained from a vote at the U.N. in condemning Russia. They didn't vote on Russia's side, but they didn't vote against Russia, either. They just abstained.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So no, I can't answer that. I - his inner circle in recent years has grown very small. In the past, it was possible to hear things about Putin and learn them in Moscow. He was in contact with a lot of"}
{"id": "1083686062", "date": "2022-03-01", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Russia's invasion of Ukraine has already changed the world as we know it", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Anne Applebaum. She's a staff writer at The Atlantic, where she's been writing about Russia's invasion of Ukraine. She's also a historian and author of \"Twilight Of Democracy: The Seductive Lure Of Authoritarianism\" and \"Red Famine: Stalin's War On Ukraine.\" We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "China's position is still unclear to me. They've said contradictory things. The Chinese have said that they, you know - they've - they want Russia to abide by - you know, abide by U.N. treaties that s"}
{"id": "1083686062", "date": "2022-03-01", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Russia's invasion of Ukraine has already changed the world as we know it", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with and Applebaum. She's a journalist who's been writing about the Russian invasion of Ukraine and the history behind it for The Atlantic. She's also the author of the books \"Twilight Of Democracy: The Seductive Allure Of Authoritarianism\" and \"Red Famine: Stalin's War On Ukraine.\" She's American but lives in Poland and England. She's currently a senior fellow at the Johns Hopkins University School of Advanced International Studies. And she's joining us from Washington. Our interview is prerecorded, so events may have changed by the time you hear this. But this interview is about the history of conflict between Russia and Ukraine and how that helps explain the Russian invasion. You had a program researching disinformation at Johns Hopkins University. I'm wondering what you're seeing now in America in terms of American disinformation about Russia and its invasion and disinformation being spread by Americans who are actually supporting Putin.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "China's position is still unclear to me. They've said contradictory things. The Chinese have said that they, you know - they've - they want Russia to abide by - you know, abide by U.N. treaties that s"}
{"id": "1083686062", "date": "2022-03-01", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Russia's invasion of Ukraine has already changed the world as we know it", "question_index": 11, "text": "Let's talk about some deeper history, some history further into the past that is kind of echoing now in the Russian invasion of Ukraine, and this is the famine that Stalin orchestrated in Ukraine in the early 1930s. And you wrote a whole book about it called \"Red Famine.\" Why did Stalin see Ukraine as a threat?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There are Americans supporting Putin. I mean, they've gone a little quieter in the last three or four days. I mean, the most extraordinary and influential one of them is Tucker Carlson, the Fox News h"}
{"id": "1083686062", "date": "2022-03-01", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Russia's invasion of Ukraine has already changed the world as we know it", "question_index": 12, "text": "Was there a cover story for that like, oh, we're collecting your food to better distribute it to the people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So curiously, or maybe not curiously, Stalin, like Putin, also saw Ukraine as a vector for ideas that could undermine him or threaten him. Stalin sought to create a unitary state where only one ideolo"}
{"id": "1083686062", "date": "2022-03-01", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Russia's invasion of Ukraine has already changed the world as we know it", "question_index": 13, "text": "Leaving none for the peasants.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. The cover story was that Ukrainians and other peasants - I should say this happened elsewhere in the Soviet Union, too. It's just that the numbers are different and more stark in Ukraine. You kno"}
{"id": "1083686062", "date": "2022-03-01", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Russia's invasion of Ukraine has already changed the world as we know it", "question_index": 14, "text": "So something else that Stalin did - and I think this is very relevant to today - he moved a lot of Russians from Russian cities into Ukraine, replacing some of the peasants because among the things Stalin did was a lot of peasants died. Nearly 4 million people died in the famine in Ukraine. But also, Stalin was rounding up, like, cultural, religious, political and intellectual leaders and imprisoning or exiling them. So can you talk a little bit about this displacement of Ukrainians to prison or exiled to Russia and their replacement with Russians from Russian cities?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Leaving none for the peasants. And that was openly discussed. I mean, that was Soviet propaganda. It was in the media. People knew that this was happening."}
{"id": "1083686062", "date": "2022-03-01", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Russia's invasion of Ukraine has already changed the world as we know it", "question_index": 15, "text": "So when Putin talks about the Russian culture being so important in Ukraine and Russian-speaking people in Ukraine, is Putin neglecting to mention that part of the Russification of Ukraine was something that was forced by Stalin in the 1930s?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, yes, after the famine, in the immediate wake of the famine, there was a mass arrest of Ukrainian artists, intellectuals, writers, people who wrote dictionaries. There was a kind of attack on the U"}
{"id": "1083686062", "date": "2022-03-01", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Russia's invasion of Ukraine has already changed the world as we know it", "question_index": 16, "text": "In part because of the famine, you think that Ukrainians have always thought of the government as them, not us, because the government for so long was the Soviet government who was trying to destroy any remnants of Ukrainian independence. And so the Ukrainians have distrusted government, and you say there's been no tradition of Ukrainian civil service or military service or public service because of all of that. So how do you think that figures into, you know, recent Ukrainian history and what's happening now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course he - of course. He's deliberately neglecting it, if he's ever thought about it. Putin regards Ukraine as a false state - that, you know, pretty much everybody living there should be Russian."}
{"id": "1083686062", "date": "2022-03-01", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Russia's invasion of Ukraine has already changed the world as we know it", "question_index": 17, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Anne Applebaum. She is a journalist, a staff writer for The Atlantic and a historian. Her books include \"Twilight Of Democracy: The Seductive Lure Of Authoritarianism\" and \"Red Famine: Stalin's War On Ukraine.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- and so there was a lot of cynicism for a long time about democracy in Ukraine and about the nature of the Ukrainian state. I mean, up until even recently - I mean, in recent years, really since 2014"}
{"id": "1083686062", "date": "2022-03-01", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Russia's invasion of Ukraine has already changed the world as we know it", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with Anne Applebaum. She's a journalist, a staff writer for The Atlantic, where she's been writing about the Russian invasion of Ukraine. She's also a historian and author of \"Twilight Of Democracy: The Seductive Lure Of Authoritarianism\" and \"Red Famine: Stalin's War On Ukraine.\" How concerned are you that Russia's invasion of Ukraine could lead to a wider war and even a nuclear one?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- and so there was a lot of cynicism for a long time about democracy in Ukraine and about the nature of the Ukrainian state. I mean, up until even recently - I mean, in recent years, really since 2014"}
{"id": "1083686062", "date": "2022-03-01", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Russia's invasion of Ukraine has already changed the world as we know it", "question_index": 19, "text": "Even things that he said he would do to make people afraid he's actually done.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I am very concerned that Russia's invasion of Ukraine could lead to a wider war. And it could happen in two or three different ways. One is that if this war goes on longer, if it goes on for a long ti"}
{"id": "1083686062", "date": "2022-03-01", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Russia's invasion of Ukraine has already changed the world as we know it", "question_index": 20, "text": "I keep wondering, how does President Zelenskyy feel about having run for office and won? I doubt he ever expected to be a president during wartime when his country was under attack by Russia. And, I mean, again, he had no political experience before this. He was a comic and starred in a Ukrainian sitcom as a teacher who kind of accidentally becomes president. Do you have any insights into how he's personally handling being president in such a really, you know, terrifying situation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very often he has done things that he said he would do, but not always."}
{"id": "1083686062", "date": "2022-03-01", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Russia's invasion of Ukraine has already changed the world as we know it", "question_index": 21, "text": "He said that he is Russia's No. 1 target. I'm sure you believe that that's true.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So somebody said to me just about a week ago - so before the invasion, I was talking to someone who knows him or has been watching him who said to me, the one thing that he's not going to do is flee t"}
{"id": "1083686062", "date": "2022-03-01", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Russia's invasion of Ukraine has already changed the world as we know it", "question_index": 22, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Anne Applebaum. She's a journalist, a staff writer for The Atlantic and a historian. Her books include \"The Twilight Of Democracy: The Seductive Allure Of Authoritarianism\" and \"Red Famine: Stalin's War On Ukraine.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I do think that's true. I mean, there are stories about assassins having been sent to Kyiv to kill him. I think, yes, that is probably true."}
{"id": "1083686062", "date": "2022-03-01", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Russia's invasion of Ukraine has already changed the world as we know it", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, and let's get back to my interview that we recorded with Anne Applebaum. She's a journalist and historian. She's a staff writer for The Atlantic, where she's been writing about the fighting between Ukraine and Russia and the history behind Russia's invasion of Ukraine. Her books include \"Twilight Of Democracy: The Seductive Lure Of Authoritarianism\" and \"Red Famine: Stalin's War On Ukraine.\" How do you think this conflict is likely to change the world as we know it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I do think that's true. I mean, there are stories about assassins having been sent to Kyiv to kill him. I think, yes, that is probably true."}
{"id": "1083686062", "date": "2022-03-01", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Russia's invasion of Ukraine has already changed the world as we know it", "question_index": 24, "text": "Since you run a program at Johns Hopkins University researching disinformation and polarization, and since the U.S. has midterm elections coming up soon and a presidential election in a couple of years - knowing what we know about how Russian disinformation and Russian bots played such a significant role in the 2020 presidential election, what are some of your concerns about how Putin might try to interfere again in our upcoming elections?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Much depends on how this conflict ends, which we can't now predict, but it has already changed the world as we know it. I don't think that we will ever again smugly assume that, you know, borders in E"}
{"id": "1083686062", "date": "2022-03-01", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Russia's invasion of Ukraine has already changed the world as we know it", "question_index": 25, "text": "Anne Applebaum, thank you so much for joining us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm more concerned about Americans who have learned from Putin's tactics and will be using them themselves. And I'm more concerned that the techniques and the attitudes, and the social media games inv"}
{"id": "1083686062", "date": "2022-03-01", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Russia's invasion of Ukraine has already changed the world as we know it", "question_index": 26, "text": "Anne Applebaum is a staff writer at The Atlantic and author of the books \"Twilight Of Democracy: The Seductive Lure Of Authoritarianism\" and \"Red Famine: Stalin's War On Ukraine.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be the creator of the HBO Max series \"Raised By Wolves,\" Aaron Guzikowski. The show is set in a future where a religious war has devastated Earth. In an attempt to save humanity, two androids, named Mother and Father, are sent to a distant planet to raise and protect human children. The series is about parenting, faith and about what makes us human. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me."}
{"id": "1083686062", "date": "2022-03-01", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Russia's invasion of Ukraine has already changed the world as we know it", "question_index": 27, "text": "It makes me sad to end today's show by saying goodbye to our associate producer, Kayla Lattimore. She's leaving us to be a producer at what promises to be a pretty exciting, new podcast, which I can't tell you about because we've pretty much been sworn to secrecy until a public announcement is made. We hired Kayla during the relatively early days of the pandemic, when most of our team was working from home. So Kayla became the first and only person we hired through meeting only on video chats. I'm proud to say, despite that, we did good. And we made a great choice in hiring her. I'm grateful she moved to Philly and I got to work with her in person. She's been such a pleasure to work with and always calm no matter what. I should have taken lessons from her while I had the chance. We wish her good luck. And we congratulate the people behind the new podcast for having the good judgment to hire her. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and, for one more time, Kayla Lattimore. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me."}
{"id": "1083948907", "date": "2022-03-04", "guest": "Benedict Cumberbatch", "title": "Benedict Cumberbatch digs into toxic masculinity in 'The Power of the Dog'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Benedict Cumberbatch, congratulations on your performance and on the film. So \"The Power Of The Dog\" is a Western of sorts. I mean, it's set on a cattle ranch, and your character is - he's a cowboy. So did - growing up in England as you did, did American Westerns mean much to you? And did you study, like, the history of the American West or anything?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Phil Burbank) Now get us some food."}
{"id": "1083948907", "date": "2022-03-04", "guest": "Benedict Cumberbatch", "title": "Benedict Cumberbatch digs into toxic masculinity in 'The Power of the Dog'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Yeah. You said that Westerns, cowboys didn't mean anything to you growing up. And you joked that to do this film, you had to go to dude school", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, not really - no. It's about as far from my lived experience as you can imagine, which I guess is part of the enticement of wanting to take this character on and this milieu on. But, no, I cert"}
{"id": "1083948907", "date": "2022-03-04", "guest": "Benedict Cumberbatch", "title": "Benedict Cumberbatch digs into toxic masculinity in 'The Power of the Dog'", "question_index": 2, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, not really - no. It's about as far from my lived experience as you can imagine, which I guess is part of the enticement of wanting to take this character on and this milieu on. But, no, I cert"}
{"id": "1083948907", "date": "2022-03-04", "guest": "Benedict Cumberbatch", "title": "Benedict Cumberbatch digs into toxic masculinity in 'The Power of the Dog'", "question_index": 3, "text": "...To prepare for the character, to learn both the Western things, but I think also to learn that style of, like, cowboy. So what are some of the things you had to learn, and which was the most interesting for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did."}
{"id": "1083948907", "date": "2022-03-04", "guest": "Benedict Cumberbatch", "title": "Benedict Cumberbatch digs into toxic masculinity in 'The Power of the Dog'", "question_index": 4, "text": "In the novel and in the book, Phil rarely bathes. In the novel, it's specified he bathes once a month in the creek. And when the creek freezes over in the winter, well, then he just won't bathe", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I knew I'd get snapshots or feelings of who Phil was from my encounter, but with people who actually live that life in Montana and who were graceful enough to let me into their world and educate me an"}
{"id": "1083948907", "date": "2022-03-04", "guest": "Benedict Cumberbatch", "title": "Benedict Cumberbatch digs into toxic masculinity in 'The Power of the Dog'", "question_index": 5, "text": ". So in trying to really get with the character, you stopped bathing for extended intervals while making the movie. I assume that was while making the movie. But, like, that must have been a really icky experience for you. I mean, once you start to smell yourself and then you realize other people are definitely smelling you and not acclimated to the smell like you are - I mean, that must've, like, been very uncomfortable and maybe even a little embarrassing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I knew I'd get snapshots or feelings of who Phil was from my encounter, but with people who actually live that life in Montana and who were graceful enough to let me into their world and educate me an"}
{"id": "1083948907", "date": "2022-03-04", "guest": "Benedict Cumberbatch", "title": "Benedict Cumberbatch digs into toxic masculinity in 'The Power of the Dog'", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In rehearsals, I did it for about a week before my family turned up in New Zealand, where we were rehearsing and shooting the film. And I did it because I didn't want that to be something they had to "}
{"id": "1083948907", "date": "2022-03-04", "guest": "Benedict Cumberbatch", "title": "Benedict Cumberbatch digs into toxic masculinity in 'The Power of the Dog'", "question_index": 7, "text": "I could see the tweets - like, Benedict Cumberbatch really smells", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Carrying this kind of biohazard-level heft of stink around with me. That's not fair."}
{"id": "1083948907", "date": "2022-03-04", "guest": "Benedict Cumberbatch", "title": "Benedict Cumberbatch digs into toxic masculinity in 'The Power of the Dog'", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Carrying this kind of biohazard-level heft of stink around with me. That's not fair."}
{"id": "1083948907", "date": "2022-03-04", "guest": "Benedict Cumberbatch", "title": "Benedict Cumberbatch digs into toxic masculinity in 'The Power of the Dog'", "question_index": 9, "text": "You don't bring the character home with you, but you do keep the character when you're on set. You stay in character even when you're not filming.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. I mean, you know, yes, it's enough to be self-conscious of it in any normal circumstance - the heightened one I find myself in as someone recognized. But I think where it's ess"}
{"id": "1083948907", "date": "2022-03-04", "guest": "Benedict Cumberbatch", "title": "Benedict Cumberbatch digs into toxic masculinity in 'The Power of the Dog'", "question_index": 10, "text": "What does that - you don't always do it, but you did with this? What does that do for you? What's the advantage of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did for this one."}
{"id": "1083948907", "date": "2022-03-04", "guest": "Benedict Cumberbatch", "title": "Benedict Cumberbatch digs into toxic masculinity in 'The Power of the Dog'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Jane Campion likes to explore different meanings of masculinity, and she certainly does that in in this film. As we've talked about, your character seems to be a real bully and prides himself on, you know, this real macho. And the things that he does are very, like, you know, masculine things like cattle herding, castrating cattle, you know, wearing spurs and stomping around. And what are some of your insights into - to the extent that you can share them with an audience that includes many people who have not seen the film - what are some of your insights about what made him that way? Because when we talk about a certain type of like, quote, \"toxic masculinity,\" it's always interesting to think about what's behind that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think what it does is if you're far away from who you are, it just gives you the ability to have a focus and a hook that's complete. You're just - you're narrowing the chance for distraction s"}
{"id": "1083958876", "date": "2022-03-04", "guest": "Jonny Greenwood", "title": "For Radiohead's Jonny Greenwood, there are no rules to composing for film", "question_index": 0, "text": "Jonny Greenwood, welcome to FRESH AIR. I love your music. It's a pleasure to have you on our show. So that music that we just heard from \"The Power Of The Dog,\" it starts like it's going to be very Western-ish, but not quite. And then there's other potentially menacing music intruding on it. It's a buzzy, ominous-sounding melody interfering with this Western-ish kind of sound. So - and it lets you know that this isn't going to be a conventional Western, even though they're herding cattle. And it also lets you know that bad things are going to be interfering. What's happening musically? What are you doing musically?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Greenwood also writes a lot of film music that is more avant garde, but some of the avant garde music is influenced by his love of baroque. He studied classical music when he was young, played in a yo"}
{"id": "1083958876", "date": "2022-03-04", "guest": "Jonny Greenwood", "title": "For Radiohead's Jonny Greenwood, there are no rules to composing for film", "question_index": 1, "text": "So with the strings that kind of interfere with that plucked cello sound, making this sound even more unconventional, what did you do to get that kind of menacing sound from violins or violins and violas?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think Westerns have a traditional sound, which is big, sweeping strings and sort of Copeland-style harmonies, which are not only beyond me but wouldn't have really suited the darkness of the film, I"}
{"id": "1083958876", "date": "2022-03-04", "guest": "Jonny Greenwood", "title": "For Radiohead's Jonny Greenwood, there are no rules to composing for film", "question_index": 2, "text": "Do you want the strings to be perfectly tuned or do you want them to be just slightly off?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I had them play with no vibrato. And, you know, that's a really beautiful effect in a way. I think the danger with writing music not on paper and relying on computers and demos is that you start to"}
{"id": "1083958876", "date": "2022-03-04", "guest": "Jonny Greenwood", "title": "For Radiohead's Jonny Greenwood, there are no rules to composing for film", "question_index": 3, "text": "One of your influences who you've also worked with is Krzysztof Penderecki, an avant garde composer who once said that we have to use instruments which were built 300 years ago or 200. And the newest instrument in the orchestra is the saxophone. But that's at least a hundred years old. And he said in the century of landing on the Moon - he said this during the 20th century - we still have to write for very old instruments, museum instruments. I think this is the problem. It became the problem in the second half of the 20th century that there's not much progress because of the lack of instruments, of new instruments. And I thought of you when I read that. And this is quoted on an album that you collaborated with him in on. I thought of you because it seems to me you want to make old instruments sound new by mixing them up a little bit, by doing unusual things with them or having them do unusual things with each other, whether it's their tunings or their dissonance is the number of instruments you use. So do you relate to that quote about using old instruments for new music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I wrote one cue for the Lynne Ramsay film \"You Were Never Really Here\" where - asking them to have - half the players tuned a quarter tone flat. So just a little bit out of tune, but all as out o"}
{"id": "1083958876", "date": "2022-03-04", "guest": "Jonny Greenwood", "title": "For Radiohead's Jonny Greenwood, there are no rules to composing for film", "question_index": 4, "text": "Oh, that's so true", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do, because I've always found acoustic instruments, certainly orchestral instruments to be capable of much more variety and strangeness and complexity than, you know, nearly all of the software I've"}
{"id": "1083958876", "date": "2022-03-04", "guest": "Jonny Greenwood", "title": "For Radiohead's Jonny Greenwood, there are no rules to composing for film", "question_index": 5, "text": ". That is really true.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do, because I've always found acoustic instruments, certainly orchestral instruments to be capable of much more variety and strangeness and complexity than, you know, nearly all of the software I've"}
{"id": "1083958876", "date": "2022-03-04", "guest": "Jonny Greenwood", "title": "For Radiohead's Jonny Greenwood, there are no rules to composing for film", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I think that all instruments are just technology, however old and new they are. And the ideal situation is where you can just regard them as being all on the same level of importance and interest "}
{"id": "1083958876", "date": "2022-03-04", "guest": "Jonny Greenwood", "title": "For Radiohead's Jonny Greenwood, there are no rules to composing for film", "question_index": 7, "text": "But I'm wondering - getting back to that Penderecki quote, I'm wondering if you try to make old instruments sound just a little bit unrecognizable and use them, like, in a way that sounds new even though the instrument is old, you know, that sounds like a new sound that you're getting from it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...As I'm sitting, talking to you, surrounded by lots of, you know, those kind of instruments."}
{"id": "1083958876", "date": "2022-03-04", "guest": "Jonny Greenwood", "title": "For Radiohead's Jonny Greenwood, there are no rules to composing for film", "question_index": 8, "text": "Do you remember what you did to get a different sound?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I was very lucky when I was in elementary school, age 9, 10, that we were sitting with our teacher, and he had everyone bring in their instruments, whether it was recorders or violins. And he said,"}
{"id": "1083958876", "date": "2022-03-04", "guest": "Jonny Greenwood", "title": "For Radiohead's Jonny Greenwood, there are no rules to composing for film", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jonny Greenwood. You may know him from two different musical areas of his life - one is in Radiohead, and the other as a film score composer. And he wrote scores for three current films - for \"Spencer,\" \"The Power Of The Dog\" and Paul Thomas Anderson's \"Licorice Pizza.\" He's also done the scores for Anderson's \"Phantom Thread,\" \"The Master\" and \"There Will Be Blood.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "as I remember. But just realizing that there were really no rules, and if it makes a sound, then it's musical. And you can just look at an instrument and think about it in any way you want to."}
{"id": "1083958876", "date": "2022-03-04", "guest": "Jonny Greenwood", "title": "For Radiohead's Jonny Greenwood, there are no rules to composing for film", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jonny Greenwood, who you probably know from his work with the band Radiohead but also for his film scores. And he has three films he wrote scores for, three new ones - \"Spencer,\" \"Licorice Pizza\" and \"The Power Of The Dog.\" And \"Licorice Pizza\" isn't by far the first film he's done with Paul Thomas Anderson. He scored Anderson's films \"Phantom Thread,\" \"The Master\" and \"There Will Be Blood.\" I want to talk with you about the music for \"Phantom Thread.\" There's three versions of what's basically, like, the theme of the movie. And I want to play two of those versions, and we're going to start with version 2. And I should say, at this point - the movie is about this very kind of classical fashion designer who is both obsessive and very set in his ways and very temperamental. And he deals - you know, he does, like, gowns and other evening dresses for, you know, high-society, wealthy women. And so - and when we hear this music, his muse-dash-girlfriend is about to start poisoning him with mushrooms because when he isn't feeling well, when he's vulnerable, he becomes more accessible and more affectionate and needy, and that puts her in a better position, she thinks. So this is a duet with you at the piano and Daniel Pioro on violin.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "as I remember. But just realizing that there were really no rules, and if it makes a sound, then it's musical. And you can just look at an instrument and think about it in any way you want to."}
{"id": "1083958876", "date": "2022-03-04", "guest": "Jonny Greenwood", "title": "For Radiohead's Jonny Greenwood, there are no rules to composing for film", "question_index": 11, "text": "I think that is really just a beautiful theme. And just - everything is, like, just a little bit off. I'm wondering if the piano that you're playing there is prepared in any way 'cause the notes sound imperfectly tuned and a little bit muffled maybe. So what have you done with the piano?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "as I remember. But just realizing that there were really no rules, and if it makes a sound, then it's musical. And you can just look at an instrument and think about it in any way you want to."}
{"id": "1083958876", "date": "2022-03-04", "guest": "Jonny Greenwood", "title": "For Radiohead's Jonny Greenwood, there are no rules to composing for film", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "as I remember. But just realizing that there were really no rules, and if it makes a sound, then it's musical. And you can just look at an instrument and think about it in any way you want to."}
{"id": "1083958876", "date": "2022-03-04", "guest": "Jonny Greenwood", "title": "For Radiohead's Jonny Greenwood, there are no rules to composing for film", "question_index": 13, "text": "It's not because you like the sound? It's because you're lazy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "that's the - yeah, that one..."}
{"id": "1083958876", "date": "2022-03-04", "guest": "Jonny Greenwood", "title": "For Radiohead's Jonny Greenwood, there are no rules to composing for film", "question_index": 14, "text": "So you have felt under the lid, like, on the strings, as opposed to, like, on the keys. They're on the - felt is on the strings.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- well - it's because I like the sound, yes. And I'm lazy."}
{"id": "1083958876", "date": "2022-03-04", "guest": "Jonny Greenwood", "title": "For Radiohead's Jonny Greenwood, there are no rules to composing for film", "question_index": 15, "text": "And the violin - it's almost like you asked him, I want to hear the friction of the bow on the strings.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1083958876", "date": "2022-03-04", "guest": "Jonny Greenwood", "title": "For Radiohead's Jonny Greenwood, there are no rules to composing for film", "question_index": 16, "text": "So let's hear another version of the theme that we heard from \"Phantom Thread.\" And this happens as the fashion designer is really feeling the effects of the poison. And so he's been talking to his sister. And he's been complaining about his muse. And he doesn't realize he's being poisoned by her. But he says, there's an air of quiet death in this house, and I do not like the way it smells. So here we go. This is a more orchestral version and a more dirge-like version of the theme that we heard. This is from the \"Phantom Thread\" - music composed by my guest, Jonny Greenwood.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's - Daniel is a very physical player indeed and is interested in every possible color and texture. And I also love a recording where you can hear the physicality of what's happening, whethe"}
{"id": "1083958876", "date": "2022-03-04", "guest": "Jonny Greenwood", "title": "For Radiohead's Jonny Greenwood, there are no rules to composing for film", "question_index": 17, "text": "I just love that", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's - Daniel is a very physical player indeed and is interested in every possible color and texture. And I also love a recording where you can hear the physicality of what's happening, whethe"}
{"id": "1083958876", "date": "2022-03-04", "guest": "Jonny Greenwood", "title": "For Radiohead's Jonny Greenwood, there are no rules to composing for film", "question_index": 18, "text": ". And I'm not sure exactly what to ask you, but can you talk a little bit about shaping it into that version of the theme?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's - Daniel is a very physical player indeed and is interested in every possible color and texture. And I also love a recording where you can hear the physicality of what's happening, whethe"}
{"id": "1083958876", "date": "2022-03-04", "guest": "Jonny Greenwood", "title": "For Radiohead's Jonny Greenwood, there are no rules to composing for film", "question_index": 19, "text": "So before you were with Radiohead, my understanding is you were in a band with Thom Yorke's younger brother. Thom Yorke is the lead singer-songwriter from Radiohead. So your older brother was in a band with Thom Yorke. You were in a band with Thom Yorke's younger brother. Do I have that right?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross. Let's get back to Terry's interview from last month with Jonny Greenwood, best known for his work with the band Radiohead and more recently "}
{"id": "1083958876", "date": "2022-03-04", "guest": "Jonny Greenwood", "title": "For Radiohead's Jonny Greenwood, there are no rules to composing for film", "question_index": 20, "text": "So how did you end up playing with Thom Yorke and forming Radiohead?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You do. That's right."}
{"id": "1083958876", "date": "2022-03-04", "guest": "Jonny Greenwood", "title": "For Radiohead's Jonny Greenwood, there are no rules to composing for film", "question_index": 21, "text": "Wait a minute. I want to make sure I understand this correctly. So the first period that you were playing with Radiohead, you turned off the keyboard?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they had a keyboard player who - it's Thom's band - had a keyboard player, which I think they didn't get on with because he played his keyboard so loud. And so when I got the chance to play with"}
{"id": "1083958876", "date": "2022-03-04", "guest": "Jonny Greenwood", "title": "For Radiohead's Jonny Greenwood, there are no rules to composing for film", "question_index": 22, "text": "And so you were...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1083958876", "date": "2022-03-04", "guest": "Jonny Greenwood", "title": "For Radiohead's Jonny Greenwood, there are no rules to composing for film", "question_index": 23, "text": "...Fingering the keys, but no sound was being emitted because this is an electric keyboard, so...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "1083958876", "date": "2022-03-04", "guest": "Jonny Greenwood", "title": "For Radiohead's Jonny Greenwood, there are no rules to composing for film", "question_index": 24, "text": "Nothing was coming out, and nobody noticed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly, yeah."}
{"id": "1083958876", "date": "2022-03-04", "guest": "Jonny Greenwood", "title": "For Radiohead's Jonny Greenwood, there are no rules to composing for film", "question_index": 25, "text": "So since you've had a foot in classical music and in rock for so long and have been important in both worlds, I think the division has melted away for a lot of classical performers but not so much for other people 'cause so many people don't listen to classical music at all anymore. It's just not - I think it's become more and more of a niche, with the exception of film scores. That's one of the great things about film scores is that it brings a different kind of music often into - you know, into people who otherwise wouldn't hear it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, you know, we were kind of noisy garage band, I suppose, in a small rehearsal room. And I remember the first few songs when I did start playing melodies. And Tom liked it, and it was very"}
{"id": "1083958876", "date": "2022-03-04", "guest": "Jonny Greenwood", "title": "For Radiohead's Jonny Greenwood, there are no rules to composing for film", "question_index": 26, "text": "I know you like performing in churches and listening to music in churches because often the period of music that's being played is from the period that the church was built in. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but can you talk a little bit about that, about the experience of being, like, in an old church or cathedral and playing or hearing music there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think streaming has been quite bad for classical music because if you are keen to find out more about classical music - you might have heard that the Beethoven \"Violin Concerto\" is a great piece of "}
{"id": "1083958876", "date": "2022-03-04", "guest": "Jonny Greenwood", "title": "For Radiohead's Jonny Greenwood, there are no rules to composing for film", "question_index": 27, "text": "Jonny Greenwood, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you for your music. And I'm expecting one or more of your scores to be nominated for Oscars. So, you know, I don't know if you care very much about awards, but I wish you good luck in awards season.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, so I've - spending a lot of time in Italy at the moment, and the churches there have just some glorious and strange organs that I've been really lucky enough to play and write a few things for. "}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. If you're a fan of New Yorker cartoons, you've probably seen and enjoyed the work of my guest, David Sipress. Since 1998, he's been a staff cartoonist at the magazine, where he's published about 700 cartoons. In 2012, during the presidential campaign, he became the magazine's first daily cartoonist on The New Yorker website. He did daily cartoons again in 2014 and twice in 2016, during the presidential primary and the campaign. His new memoir - \"What's So Funny?\" - is about his life and about cartooning. The book is illustrated with his cartoons. David Sipress, welcome to FRESH AIR. I love your cartoons. Thank you for being here. Let's start with your most published and tweeted cartoon. Would you describe it?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 1, "text": "That has been true for so many years right now", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's two people walking down the street, a woman and a man. And the woman is turning to the - well, she's sort of looking up at the sky and saying, my desire to be well-informed is currently at "}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 2, "text": ". When did you write it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's two people walking down the street, a woman and a man. And the woman is turning to the - well, she's sort of looking up at the sky and saying, my desire to be well-informed is currently at "}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 3, "text": "As we record this, there's a 40-mile mile convoy of Russian tanks heading toward Kyiv. So on days like this, do you think about cartooning, or do you feel like this is not the time for cartoons or at least topical cartoons? It's hard to find anything funny about what's going on now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wrote that sometime during the '90s. It's not a New Yorker cartoon. I never can remember where it first started, but I think it was during the whole Bosnia problem. And it was so upsetting getting u"}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 4, "text": "You've spent a lot of time doing daily cartoons for The New Yorker's website. You did it in 2012 during the presidential election. You did it again in 2014 and twice in 2016. You did it for the presidential primaries and the presidential election. How did you see Trump and the primaries in the election differently having to do daily cartoons than you might have if you weren't doing that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's not the kind of thing that sends me to my studio to think up cartoons. It's just so dangerous to attempt to make a joke out of a terrible situation like this. Maybe in a week, maybe in two weeks,"}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 5, "text": "That is funny.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the first thing is that the kind of avoidance I was talking about a moment ago was not possible. I was forced every single day to open the newspaper and try to come up with something and to come"}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 6, "text": "I want to get back to Ukraine for a moment. Your father emigrated from Ukraine when he was a child with his parents. He was born in 1905. Did he talk much about what he left behind in Ukraine and what it was like to, you know, be on the ship coming to America and land here?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that was a way of saying something about Trump without depicting him or going at it directly."}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 7, "text": "I want to mention another cartoon that you've done that kind of combines your work as a cartoonist for The New Yorker and your life as a patient in therapy. Can you describe that cartoon?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, a lot of the theme of my memoir is about secrecy and spending my - a life trying to get my father to tell me anything about that distant past. I don't think it's unusual for immigrants of my fat"}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 8, "text": "And, you know, the New Yorker is famous for its fact-checking. Do you worry that the things you tell your therapist might not quite be accurate?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's - I think the caption is - it's the patient lying on the couch with a therapist, and sitting in the corner is a woman with a notepad, and the therapist is saying, that's Eleanor; she'll b"}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is David Sipress. He's a New Yorker cartoonist who's written a new memoir called \"What's So Funny?\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, that's such an interesting question because, really, where that whole thing came up was about writing this book and about memory. And in fact, one of the things that I learned in thera"}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with David Sipress. He's been a New Yorker cartoonist since 1998. He has a new memoir called \"What's So Funny?\" You tried for years to get published in The New Yorker. What was that process like of constantly submitting cartoons and constantly getting rejected?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, that's such an interesting question because, really, where that whole thing came up was about writing this book and about memory. And in fact, one of the things that I learned in thera"}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 11, "text": "And that new editor was Bob Mankoff.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah, it took me 25 years of submitting. And people often say, well, why didn't you give up? It must have been dispiriting. How did you keep going? And I did keep going precisely because if you "}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 12, "text": "So was there a kind of cartoon that you submitted to The New Yorker for the 25 years that you were trying to get in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Bob, yes."}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 13, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "you know? I need them to expand their idea of what a funny cartoon is, what a good cartoon is. I sound very relaxed and adult about it now. The honest truth is, a lot of that time I felt pretty - I ha"}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 14, "text": "How did you keep submitting? Was it through the mail or did you knock on doors? How did that work?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I - that does - there was a lot of that thinking that went on that I had to push aside."}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 15, "text": "Your father kept telling you to give up on the idea of being a professional cartoonist and go back to pursuing a career as a historian. You studied Russian history at Harvard before you dropped out to pursue a career as a cartoonist. Did that get to you to? Did that ever get to you, his very discouraging words about your dream?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- but I did do it in person from about '83 to '97, when I first got - when I sold my first one."}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I never really got over the desire to have him approve my choices. It was really hard at the start. There is a chapter in my book about my response to his finding out that I had dropped out of"}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 17, "text": "When he looked into the future, your father always saw a negative outcome. So what - always, like, a worst-case scenario that he predicted. Are there examples that you remember?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the great disappointment was he never got to see it."}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 18, "text": "And he probably wasn't aware of that. It strikes me - your father doesn't sound like a very introspective man. He didn't speak the language of psychology. You have been in therapy for many years and really appreciate the help that it's given you in understanding your life and the stories that you tell yourself about your life and about your family. And I'm wondering if that was a source of frustration for you, to see things that he was doing, to see his, like, negative chicken counting knowing that he didn't see that and that he wouldn't see that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, he - what he - almost about everything - I finally figured out that what he was doing was he was sort of giving himself a preemptive shot of disappointment and pain so that when the thin"}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 19, "text": "Yeah. Your father's attitude was no one ever said you were supposed to be happy. Like, when you told him you were dropping out of Harvard where were studying Russian history so that you could pursue a career as a cartoonist, he said to you, what, because you're unhappy? You're unhappy? That's it? That's it? And you quote him as saying, listen, mister, who's happy? Nobody, that's who. You think life is a bed of roses? After all we've done for you, this is how you repay us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I understood that almost from the time I was a small boy. I understand that - what I say at one point is my father always looked out, never in. Someone was saying to me recently that people of that ge"}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 20, "text": "And that sounds so familiar. I think so many parents and maybe especially Jewish parents of that generation or immigrant parents of that generation - I don't know. But I think you have a lot of company in having parents who would say that. Where do you think that comes from?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I understood that almost from the time I was a small boy. I understand that - what I say at one point is my father always looked out, never in. Someone was saying to me recently that people of that ge"}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 21, "text": "He probably also thought he was protecting you from inevitable failure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it comes from the difficult story that my father was so reticent to tell me about of where he came from and how he got to be where he is. And the whole time, being a Jew and being an immigrant"}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 22, "text": "Well, let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is David Sipress. He's been a New Yorker cartoonist since 1998. He has a new memoir called \"What's So Funny?\" We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "so..."}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with David Sipress. He's been a New Yorker cartoonist since 1998. He has a new memoir called \"What's So Funny?\" In the memoir, he writes about his life, but he also illustrates the book with a lot of cartoons relevant to the period of his life that he's writing about. You know, I think a little bit about the trauma that your father must have suffered coming to America. The family escaped the pogroms and conscription into the czar's army, and then they were nearly turned back at Ellis Island. What did your father tell you about that? This is one of the few things I think you know about his past.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "so..."}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 24, "text": "What impact did that story have on you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He only told me that the last time I ever spoke to him. My wife and I were leaving for a trip to England and I went to visit him before we left and he died while we were away. And so it was the last c"}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 25, "text": "So you just compared the problems you had growing up with your father's problems. But some of those problems that you had were significant. Your mother had debilitating migraines where she would, like, shut herself in the room for days and you weren't allowed to talk with her, you weren't allowed to open the door, so you felt really unloved during those moments. And then also your sister who teased you, well, it turned out she had bipolar disease, and she died by suicide after your father died. So these were actually pretty serious things you were dealing with. It wasn't it like getting, you know, sent back to the country that you just fled from, but, you know, it wasn't nothing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, for one thing, when I listened to him tell me that story, I thought, well, what were my problems when I was a kid? You know, my - I couldn't have a dog, my mother had migraine headaches, my sist"}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 26, "text": "There's a story you tell in your book about bravery, about your father's bravery when his jewelry store was robbed, and I'd like you to tell us the story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Believe me, I know. I do. I just meant that it was just in that moment of talking to him that I made that comparison. But yes, I dealt with a lot of difficult stuff in my life and my sister, of course"}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 27, "text": "What was that different understanding?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My father had a jewelry store in Lexington Avenue in Manhattan for many - for decades, and he was very proud of what he called his security system. He would he would touch his actually very thick glas"}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 28, "text": "Did you ever talk to him about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, just as I have a compulsion in my life, every time I'm in any situation, from therapy to walking down the street to eating in a restaurant, I'm always thinking of cartoons. It's just something t"}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 29, "text": "Let's take another break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is New Yorker cartoonist David Sipress. His new memoir is called \"What's So Funny?\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, those are the kinds of conversations both of us were kind of incapable of. So no, I never did. I - fortunately, in my wife, I have an interpreter, a person who can always interpret those interacti"}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 30, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with David Sipress. He's been a New Yorker cartoonist since 1998. Now he has a new memoir called \"What's So Funny\" that's not only a memoir, it's illustrated with his cartoons. There's Yiddish words that are sprinkled throughout your memoir, including farshtunkene, mishigas, fershtay.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, those are the kinds of conversations both of us were kind of incapable of. So no, I never did. I - fortunately, in my wife, I have an interpreter, a person who can always interpret those interacti"}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 31, "text": "I'm sorry?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 32, "text": "I'm not sure I know mamzer. What is that? I should know that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mamzer is one I also..."}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 33, "text": "Oh,", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 34, "text": "OK. I guess my parents left that one out to be on the clean side of Yiddish. What did Yiddish sound like to you? And what did it mean to you when you were a child and heard your parents speak it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 35, "text": "But yet, you remember all these Yiddish words.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first of all, they didn't. You know, what's interesting is that somebody is doing an audio version of this book. And in spite of some of the things I've said in this discussion, I did not want m"}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 36, "text": "My mother used to use it during the period when my father was smoking a cigar and would smell up the whole house", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, because when he used them, they really stuck out. I mean, and also, they're the words I love. Like farshtunken, I just love that word. And actually, my mother did use that once when she was desc"}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 37, "text": ". And my mother would say...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, because when he used them, they really stuck out. I mean, and also, they're the words I love. Like farshtunken, I just love that word. And actually, my mother did use that once when she was desc"}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 38, "text": "That farshtunkene cigar.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 39, "text": "So you know, we've talked a lot about you. We've talked a lot about your father. Let's talk about me for a moment", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- you know, how to pronounce Wylene."}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 40, "text": ". You did a cartoon about me a few years ago. And it was such - it really was just, like, such a thrill. So would you describe the cartoon?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- you know, how to pronounce Wylene."}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 41, "text": "Does it have something to do with somebody's name being part of a title of a show?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's a cocktail party. And I draw you from behind, because I always think it's funnier to portray people without caricaturing their faces. So I tried to imagine what you would look like from beh"}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 42, "text": "I do", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. But first of all, one thing you learn writing captions is that every single word, every punctuation mark, everything in that caption matters. You want the reader to glide smoothly through "}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 43, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. But first of all, one thing you learn writing captions is that every single word, every punctuation mark, everything in that caption matters. You want the reader to glide smoothly through "}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 44, "text": "Yeah, that's true.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It really helps. Gross is a funny name."}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 45, "text": "So I just have to tell you something about the fact-ness (ph) of that cartoon. So I am depicted in your cartoon wearing what looks from behind like a skirted suit and wearing a skirt that, you know, comes, like, considerably below my knee. I want you to know I haven't worn a skirt or a dress in decades. And I want to know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It wouldn't have worked as well with - I don't know - somebody else. But Gross is just funny in and of itself."}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 46, "text": "I want to know - where were those New Yorker fact-checkers when you put me in a skirt?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm sorry."}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 47, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Good point."}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 48, "text": "Yes, please.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Good point, Terry. Good point. Can I tell you the funniest story about the fact-checkers that there is?"}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 49, "text": "What was the response?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So..."}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 50, "text": "Let's take another break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is David Sipress. He's been a New Yorker cartoonist since 1998. He has a new memoir called \"What's So Funny?\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A big laugh from the assistant cartoon editor but nothing from the fact-checker."}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 51, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with New Yorker cartoonist David Sipress. He has a new memoir called \"What's So Funny?\" that's illustrated with many of his cartoons. You wanted to be a New Yorker cartoonist ever since you were 6. Did your family have The New Yorker around the house? Did they subscribe?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A big laugh from the assistant cartoon editor but nothing from the fact-checker."}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 52, "text": "Wow. You were really serious about it as a kid.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. It came every week, and my mother and - read it cover to cover. My father not so much 'cause he didn't have as much time. And I was just entranced from the very start by the cartoons. I didn'"}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 53, "text": "Do you remember one of the cartoons that you did and then pasted into a real issue of The New Yorker when you were young?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was. Once at our elementary school, a cartoonist came to give a demonstration. It was sort of, like, a career week thing. And he drew on a big pad in front of all of us kids, and he did all these wo"}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 54, "text": "Because the tree is bark and the dog is barking.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I remember the first cartoon I ever did. And I describe that in the book, which is just a silly pun, but it's a dog furiously barking at the trunk of a tree. And of course, the dog is going, bar"}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 55, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 56, "text": "Do you have to do a cartoon today?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 57, "text": "Is it like getting graded every week?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would have, but I'm talking to you and skipping this week 'cause my deadline is in about 45 minutes. The deadline for The New Yorker - we hand in our roughs on Tuesday at noon, and then they get loo"}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 58, "text": "When you were young and your parents subscribed to The New Yorker and you loved the cartoons, who did you love? Who were the cartoonists?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A little bit. And no matter how long I've been doing this, I wake up anxious about whether or not I'll sell one, wondering if I sold one this week. It's like getting graded, but it's also - having don"}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 59, "text": "How did you decide what you wanted your illustration style to be?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, boy. Well, above all of them, it was Saul Steinberg, who wasn't actually strictly a cartoonist, but he was a magician with drawing. He did things with line that always surprised and delighted me a"}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 60, "text": "So, you know, you had a very troubled relationship with your father. When you went through his possessions after he died, one of the things that you found that really made you tear up in a way that you hadn't before was a sketch that he did of a dog. And I have to say, his lines are so graceful in it. And you didn't know he was doing that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I love artists like Charles Addams, who make these incredibly complex, beautifully drawn representations of what they're drawing about. I've always admired them, but it's not who I am. I wanted "}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 61, "text": "David Sipress, it's really been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I knew that he could draw really well because he kept an inventory of everything that ever went in and out of his store. And at that time, he never would have thought of photography. He drew eve"}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 62, "text": "David Sipress is a New Yorker cartoonist. His new memoir is called \"What's So Funny?\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, my guest will be novelist Amy Bloom. Her new memoir is about how, at her husband's insistence, she helped him legally terminate his life after he was diagnosed with Alzheimer's disease and decided he wanted to end his life while he was still himself. He didn't fit the qualifications in American states with right to die laws, but he did at a nonprofit in Zurich, Switzerland. Her book is called \"In Love: A Memoir Of Love And Loss.\" I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "1084884010", "date": "2022-03-07", "guest": "David Sipress", "title": "It took this 'New Yorker' cartoonist 25 years to achieve his childhood dream", "question_index": 63, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "1085699224", "date": "2022-03-10", "guest": "Masha Gessen", "title": "Thousands of Russians have fled, afraid a new Iron Curtain will fall", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Masha Gessen, is a Russian-American journalist who reported in late January and February from Ukraine, then went to Moscow after the invasion. On the night Putin shut down the last remaining independent source of TV news, Gessen was at that studio. Gessen's dispatches are being published in The New Yorker, where Gessen is a staff writer. Gessen left Moscow on Thursday and is speaking to us from Tbilisi in the Republic of Georgia. For 20 years, Gessen was a journalist in Moscow and had been the chief correspondent for Russia's leading news magazine until it became impossible to report the real news. After that, Gessen moved to a popular science magazine. In 2013, when it became too dangerous to remain in Russia because of Putin's anti-gay laws, Gessen moved to New York with their partner and their adopted son and their two other children. Gessen uses the pronouns they/them. They have written extensively about Putin, including in their book \"The Man Without A Face: The Unlikely Rise Of Vladimir Putin.\" Gessen warned about Trump's authoritarian style of leadership and its parallels to Putin in the book \"Surviving Autocracy.\" We recorded our interview yesterday. Masha Gessen, welcome to FRESH AIR. I'm glad that you're safe. You're in Tbilisi in the Republic of Georgia now. Why is that where you are now?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1085699224", "date": "2022-03-10", "guest": "Masha Gessen", "title": "Thousands of Russians have fled, afraid a new Iron Curtain will fall", "question_index": 1, "text": "What are you hearing from people who have fled to Tbilisi?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I was in Moscow until last Thursday. And all of that week following the full-scale invasion that began at 5 in the morning the previous Thursday, people that I know in Moscow started to feel panick"}
{"id": "1085699224", "date": "2022-03-10", "guest": "Masha Gessen", "title": "Thousands of Russians have fled, afraid a new Iron Curtain will fall", "question_index": 2, "text": "Are most of the people who fled Moscow journalists that you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "People are - you know, I mean, it's an awful story to report. And it's very close to my heart because the people that I'm reporting on - actually, right now, like, all the interviews that I was doing "}
{"id": "1085699224", "date": "2022-03-10", "guest": "Masha Gessen", "title": "Thousands of Russians have fled, afraid a new Iron Curtain will fall", "question_index": 3, "text": "So in order words, if you tell the truth, you're going to be put in prison for 15 years.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I do know a lot of journalists who've fled Moscow and the journalists who've left under, you know, a particular set of circumstances, which is that on Friday, the Russian Parliament passed and Pre"}
{"id": "1085699224", "date": "2022-03-10", "guest": "Masha Gessen", "title": "Thousands of Russians have fled, afraid a new Iron Curtain will fall", "question_index": 4, "text": "My impression from your writing is that there's a big division now in Russia between people who have managed to find sources of the truth about the war Russia really is waging against Ukraine and those people who believe the propaganda that Russia - that the Russian government is putting out and think, like, nothing's wrong here.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If you tell the truth, you can face up to 15 years in prison for the crime of spreading false information. Yeah. But, you know, the people, I mean, like, the people I was talking to today are a sociol"}
{"id": "1085699224", "date": "2022-03-10", "guest": "Masha Gessen", "title": "Thousands of Russians have fled, afraid a new Iron Curtain will fall", "question_index": 5, "text": "One of the things I always wonder about in situations like this is when do you know it's time to leave? And you watch people make that decision first in Ukraine and then in Moscow. So let's go to Ukraine for a second. For a while, people thought, oh, Russia is just scaring Ukraine. They're not really - you know, they're trying to teach Ukraine a lesson. They're not really going to invade. And then not only did Russia invade, I mean, it's just been absolutely brutal. It's been a war on the whole country and on its citizens. What kind of anguish would the people going through who you knew and who you were talking to about whether they should leave or not before the invasion actually started?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. It should probably be noted that the people I'm describing, even if the estimates of 200,000 people leaving Russia are correct, that's still a tiny, tiny minority of Russians. And even if we add "}
{"id": "1085699224", "date": "2022-03-10", "guest": "Masha Gessen", "title": "Thousands of Russians have fled, afraid a new Iron Curtain will fall", "question_index": 6, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Russian American journalist Masha Gessen, a staff writer for The New Yorker. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I was in Kyiv and in Kharkiv during the last week of January talking to people about precisely that, about the talk of war, about what their ideas were about what they would do if the invasion actu"}
{"id": "1085699224", "date": "2022-03-10", "guest": "Masha Gessen", "title": "Thousands of Russians have fled, afraid a new Iron Curtain will fall", "question_index": 7, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Russian American journalist Masha Gessen, a staff writer for The New Yorker. Gessen reported from Ukraine just before the invasion, then went to Moscow, where Gessen remained until last Thursday. Gessen is speaking to us from Tbilisi in the country of Georgia. You were at TV Rain, Russia's last independent TV channel, on the night it was shut down. A couple of nights before that, you were interviewed on that channel. And then you heard that it was being shut down, so you went right over there. What was said on the air that appeared to be, like, the last straw for the Russian government?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I was in Kyiv and in Kharkiv during the last week of January talking to people about precisely that, about the talk of war, about what their ideas were about what they would do if the invasion actu"}
{"id": "1085699224", "date": "2022-03-10", "guest": "Masha Gessen", "title": "Thousands of Russians have fled, afraid a new Iron Curtain will fall", "question_index": 8, "text": "When you got there, when you got to the station, what was going on at the station?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "TV Rain started running a round-the-clock live broadcast covering the war in Ukraine and calling it a war. From the moment the invasion began. And the thing is that you would think that that's what a "}
{"id": "1085699224", "date": "2022-03-10", "guest": "Masha Gessen", "title": "Thousands of Russians have fled, afraid a new Iron Curtain will fall", "question_index": 9, "text": "Is that when you decided you were going to leave Moscow?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I got to TV Rain, they were still broadcasting. Their website had already been blocked, but they were still streaming to YouTube, which is still accessible in Russia. The two anchors who were in "}
{"id": "1085699224", "date": "2022-03-10", "guest": "Masha Gessen", "title": "Thousands of Russians have fled, afraid a new Iron Curtain will fall", "question_index": 10, "text": "And you were able to get a flight, obviously.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was going to stay a bit longer. I actually wanted to stay as long as I could while it was still safe for me to leave. But there were a couple of things going on. One was that I - I mean, I left a da"}
{"id": "1085699224", "date": "2022-03-10", "guest": "Masha Gessen", "title": "Thousands of Russians have fled, afraid a new Iron Curtain will fall", "question_index": 11, "text": "And then from Istanbul, you went to Tbilisi.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I was able to get a flight to Istanbul."}
{"id": "1085699224", "date": "2022-03-10", "guest": "Masha Gessen", "title": "Thousands of Russians have fled, afraid a new Iron Curtain will fall", "question_index": 12, "text": "And I guess Putin wants his opposition to leave the country so he has more control in the country. Is it easier to get people to leave than to put them in prison?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And I went to Tbilisi because so many Russians have landed here, and it's such sort of a weird and sad and volatile cultural and political situation with this tiny country that also is partiall"}
{"id": "1085699224", "date": "2022-03-10", "guest": "Masha Gessen", "title": "Thousands of Russians have fled, afraid a new Iron Curtain will fall", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well, let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Russian American journalist Masha Gessen, a staff writer for The New Yorker. We'll talk more about their reporting from Russia after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's always cheaper to get people to leave than to put them in prison. And I think he is irrationally afraid of any kind of street protest. Putin's regime has never been under any credible threat from"}
{"id": "1085699224", "date": "2022-03-10", "guest": "Masha Gessen", "title": "Thousands of Russians have fled, afraid a new Iron Curtain will fall", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Russian American journalist Masha Gessen, a staff writer for The New Yorker. Masha Gessen goes by the pronouns they/their/them. They reported from Ukraine just before the invasion, then went to Moscow, where they remained until last week. For 20 years, Gessen was a journalist in Moscow and had been the chief correspondent for Russia's leading news magazine until it became impossible to report the real news. After that, Gessen moved to a popular science magazine. In 2013, when it became too dangerous to remain in Russia because of Putin's anti-gay laws, Gessen moved to New York with Gessen's partner and their adopted son and their two other children. Gessen has written extensively about Putin, including in their book \"The Man Without A Face: The Unlikely Rise Of Vladimir Putin.\" Gessen warned about Trump's authoritarian style of leadership and its parallels to Putin in the book \"Surviving Autocracy.\" Russia has passed several new laws. You mentioned the law pertaining to journalists and what you're not allowed to say. One of the new laws - and I think this passed the full parliament - one of the new laws is that mass graves are legal during wars and state of - states of emergency now. What are the implications of that? When I think of mass graves, I don't think of good things.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's always cheaper to get people to leave than to put them in prison. And I think he is irrationally afraid of any kind of street protest. Putin's regime has never been under any credible threat from"}
{"id": "1085699224", "date": "2022-03-10", "guest": "Masha Gessen", "title": "Thousands of Russians have fled, afraid a new Iron Curtain will fall", "question_index": 15, "text": "Who do you think the mass graves are for? Are they for soldiers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So that - the law on mass graves, or sort of regulating mass graves during states of emergency in military operations, actually went into effect on February 1. And it's one of the signs that we have t"}
{"id": "1085699224", "date": "2022-03-10", "guest": "Masha Gessen", "title": "Thousands of Russians have fled, afraid a new Iron Curtain will fall", "question_index": 16, "text": "Another new law - it's a crime to provide financial material, consultative or other assistance to foreign or international organizations, punishable by 12 to 20 years in prison. What are the implications of that in Russia?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I think the legislation is to enable the military to bury soldiers in the field. I don't think they're at all concerned about casualties on the other side."}
{"id": "1085699224", "date": "2022-03-10", "guest": "Masha Gessen", "title": "Thousands of Russians have fled, afraid a new Iron Curtain will fall", "question_index": 17, "text": "Wow. So many opportunities to be put in prison right now in Russia.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So that's actually a really interesting one. It's not a new law. This is a law that was passed in 2012. And I remember - you know, I wrote about it then. I was still living in Moscow. And I saw that, "}
{"id": "1085699224", "date": "2022-03-10", "guest": "Masha Gessen", "title": "Thousands of Russians have fled, afraid a new Iron Curtain will fall", "question_index": 18, "text": "That's such an interesting question you raised. Why bother with the pretense of the law when you're basically just rounding up people who you see as opposition? Do you think it makes Putin feel better about himself, that he can still convince himself that he's - you know, he's following the law, the laws that he created?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it - it'll - it makes you wonder why they need laws at all, which is something - I mean, it's a personal obsession of mine. Why do they formalize this stuff when it's just terror? Like, why ev"}
{"id": "1085699224", "date": "2022-03-10", "guest": "Masha Gessen", "title": "Thousands of Russians have fled, afraid a new Iron Curtain will fall", "question_index": 19, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Russian American journalist Masha Gessen, a staff writer for The New Yorker. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I think it does have a lot to do with the way he perceives himself, that he enforces laws, their rules, and it's always the victim's fault for violating the laws that are so clearly stated. If on"}
{"id": "1085699224", "date": "2022-03-10", "guest": "Masha Gessen", "title": "Thousands of Russians have fled, afraid a new Iron Curtain will fall", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Russian American journalist Masha Gessen, a staff writer for The New Yorker. Gessen reported from Ukraine just before the invasion, then went to Moscow, where Gessen remained until last Thursday. We've been talking about how Putin has been making it virtually impossible for a lot of people to find out the truth about the war in Ukraine. It's just a special operation in Putin's propaganda. And there's very little information about this, quote, \"special operation.\" There's also disinformation that is now required in Russian schools. Can you tell us about that? This is directives from the ministry of education about how the war should be taught in school.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I think it does have a lot to do with the way he perceives himself, that he enforces laws, their rules, and it's always the victim's fault for violating the laws that are so clearly stated. If on"}
{"id": "1085699224", "date": "2022-03-10", "guest": "Masha Gessen", "title": "Thousands of Russians have fled, afraid a new Iron Curtain will fall", "question_index": 21, "text": "So children are being taught lies at a very young age now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So on March 1, all Russian schools had to conduct special social sciences lessons to explain to children how they should think and talk about the so-called special operation in Ukraine. And they were "}
{"id": "1085699224", "date": "2022-03-10", "guest": "Masha Gessen", "title": "Thousands of Russians have fled, afraid a new Iron Curtain will fall", "question_index": 22, "text": "In your March 4 dispatch for The New Yorker, you wrote about a poll that asked who's responsible for mounting tensions in Ukraine. Three percent blamed Russia. And this was a poll in Russia. So 3% blamed Russia, 14% blamed Ukraine. And here's the shocker. Sixty percent - 6-0 percent - blamed the U.S. What is behind that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, children are being taught lies, and this very particular kind of lie that calls to - I mean it references World War II in this really twisted way. But it also just dehumanizes the enemy, and the"}
{"id": "1085699224", "date": "2022-03-10", "guest": "Masha Gessen", "title": "Thousands of Russians have fled, afraid a new Iron Curtain will fall", "question_index": 23, "text": "One of the most terrifying things that I read in your dispatches for The New Yorker is that one Russian analyst, who you think is a really good analyst, said that Putin might feel so kind of pushed into a corner that he lashes out by using a nuclear weapon at what he thinks of as the capital of the world, which would be New York. Tell us more about what this analyst said to you and what you make of that really terrifying comment.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the larger historical narrative that the Kremlin has been pushing very, very effectively - and I think it's so effective because this is actually the part that I think Putin firmly believes himself"}
{"id": "1085699224", "date": "2022-03-10", "guest": "Masha Gessen", "title": "Thousands of Russians have fled, afraid a new Iron Curtain will fall", "question_index": 24, "text": "In Poland?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So this analyst is Grigory Yudin, who I think is very insightful. And I think that he is attentive, right? Good analysts are - they largely earned their stripes by just really paying close attention t"}
{"id": "1085699224", "date": "2022-03-10", "guest": "Masha Gessen", "title": "Thousands of Russians have fled, afraid a new Iron Curtain will fall", "question_index": 25, "text": "The sanctions against Russia - the economic sanctions against Russia are, you know, killing the Russian economy. The ruble is in freefall. The stock market has been closed. So Russians are really suffering. They can't even get access to their money. A lot of the credit card companies have shut off access to Russia. So Russian citizens are suffering. What are the chances they blame the U.S. and not Putin for that - you know, that they just think the U.S. is the enemy, as opposed to thinking Putin has created this war, which is causing us to suffer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In Poland - well, yeah. So the reason - Poland is a country that borders both Russia and Ukraine. It's just to the west of Ukraine. And military aid to Ukraine that is coming from Western countries is"}
{"id": "1085699224", "date": "2022-03-10", "guest": "Masha Gessen", "title": "Thousands of Russians have fled, afraid a new Iron Curtain will fall", "question_index": 26, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you again here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Russian American journalist Masha Gessen, a staff writer for The New Yorker. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What they're hearing on television constantly is anti-Russian sanctions, and it's all talk about these unwarranted, unmotivated, unprovoked sanctions imposed by the West that has conspired against Rus"}
{"id": "1085699224", "date": "2022-03-10", "guest": "Masha Gessen", "title": "Thousands of Russians have fled, afraid a new Iron Curtain will fall", "question_index": 27, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Russian American journalist Masha Gessen, a staff writer for The New Yorker. They reported from Ukraine just before the invasion, then went to Moscow, where they remained until last week. Masha Gessen is speaking to us now from Tbilisi in the country of Georgia. And Masha Gessen goes by the pronoun they/them. What do your Russian journalist friends and your Russian analyst friends think Putin will do after Ukraine if he militarily wins in Ukraine?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What they're hearing on television constantly is anti-Russian sanctions, and it's all talk about these unwarranted, unmotivated, unprovoked sanctions imposed by the West that has conspired against Rus"}
{"id": "1085699224", "date": "2022-03-10", "guest": "Masha Gessen", "title": "Thousands of Russians have fled, afraid a new Iron Curtain will fall", "question_index": 28, "text": "But it also sounds like Putin is the kind of leader who won't allow himself to be perceived as a loser. In a scenario where your analyst friend talked about the possibility of Putin using a nuclear weapon in New York, the context of that was, you know, Putin won't let himself be seen as a loser, so if he's really up against a wall, that's what he could conceivably do. So it just seems like an impossible situation. If you have somebody who's irrational, who's totally lacking in humanity and empathy and is willing to do anything to be perceived as the winner and not the loser, like, what sane options are there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think Putin has made it very clear that he doesn't see Ukraine as the end goal. His speech on February 21, three days before the invasion began, was absolutely terrifying because he laid out his vis"}
{"id": "1085699224", "date": "2022-03-10", "guest": "Masha Gessen", "title": "Thousands of Russians have fled, afraid a new Iron Curtain will fall", "question_index": 29, "text": "Well, Masha Gessen, thank you so much for talking with us. Thank you for your reporting and for all the risks you've been taking to do that reporting. Really, really appreciate it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I wouldn't actually call him irrational. I think that he is consistent and rational inside his own mental system, and he does give us access to his mental system. He does tell us how he views the w"}
{"id": "1085699224", "date": "2022-03-10", "guest": "Masha Gessen", "title": "Thousands of Russians have fled, afraid a new Iron Curtain will fall", "question_index": 30, "text": "My interview with Masha Gessen was recorded yesterday. They spoke to us from Tbilisi in the country Georgia. Gessen is a staff writer for The New Yorker. If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed - like this week's interviews with The New Yorker cartoonist David Sipress or journalist Elizabeth Williamson, whose new book is about the parents whose children were murdered in the Sandy Hook school shooting and their efforts to refute the claims of conspiracy theorists that the massacre was a phony event staged by the government - check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. It's great to talk to you."}
{"id": "1085699224", "date": "2022-03-10", "guest": "Masha Gessen", "title": "Thousands of Russians have fled, afraid a new Iron Curtain will fall", "question_index": 31, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering today from Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Seth Kelley and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. It's great to talk to you."}
{"id": "1086662380", "date": "2022-03-16", "guest": "Jonathan Reisman", "title": "A doctor reveals the hidden wonders of the human body", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're going to talk about the hidden world inside our bodies, the remarkable design of our organs, the messages contained in our body fluids, and how things can turn foul when something goes wrong. My guest, Dr. Jonathan Reisman, is an internist, pediatrician and ER physician, and the author of the new book, \"The Unseen Body.\" Each chapter is about a specific body part or body fluid from his perspective as a doctor. So there's chapters on the throat, heart, feces, genitals, liver, brain, skin, urine, blood and so on. It's fascinating material, but I want to acknowledge at the start that our conversation will include discussion of body fluids and genitals. And I know that makes some people uncomfortable or squeamish. I suspect Dr. Reisman will try to convince you that you needn't be squeamish about the complexity of the human body. Before studying medicine, his passion was studying the natural world and ecology. As a medical student, he found that exploring the body felt similar to exploring the outside world. Each organ was a different creature with its own unique appearance and behaviors. He's practiced medicine in remote and culturally unique regions of the world, including the Arctic, Antarctica, high altitudes in Nepal, people living on the street in Calcutta, in India, and among the Oglala Sioux in South Dakota. He currently works in several ERs in the Philadelphia area. Dr. Jonathan Reisman, welcome to FRESH AIR. It's a fascinating book. I know you're fascinated by our insides, our organs, our body fluids. It's part of what drew you to medicine. But many people are squeamish about looking even at a video of a chest cut open during surgery. Why do you think that the body can seem so revolting or upsetting?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1086662380", "date": "2022-03-16", "guest": "Jonathan Reisman", "title": "A doctor reveals the hidden wonders of the human body", "question_index": 1, "text": "The first time you could open a cadaver as a medical student, did you find it revolting or fascinating?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thanks so much for having me here today, Terry. I think that a lot of people are simply, you know, grossed out or repulsed by what they're not used to. You know, when we go about our daily lives"}
{"id": "1086662380", "date": "2022-03-16", "guest": "Jonathan Reisman", "title": "A doctor reveals the hidden wonders of the human body", "question_index": 2, "text": "Well, let's start talking about a part of the body that does not make people squeamish. I'm thinking of the throat. When you were in med school, you were amazed at how stupidly designed the throat seemed. What seemed stupid about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I actually found it absolutely fascinating on that first day. In fact, before the end of the very first day of medical school, during which they had us start in the anatomy lab, which is the class in "}
{"id": "1086662380", "date": "2022-03-16", "guest": "Jonathan Reisman", "title": "A doctor reveals the hidden wonders of the human body", "question_index": 3, "text": "So, to make matters even worse, for people who are older and have weaker swallowing muscles or who have any kind of like dementia or illness that weakens those muscles, it's so easy to choke on food and have it go down the windpipe instead of down the esophagus. And that leads to aspirational pneumonia. Would you describe what that is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, what is its basic function? The throat helps us deal with whatever enters our body, you know, usually through the mouth. We drink. We eat. We inhale. Air comes in through the mouth and the n"}
{"id": "1086662380", "date": "2022-03-16", "guest": "Jonathan Reisman", "title": "A doctor reveals the hidden wonders of the human body", "question_index": 4, "text": "Yeah. And I'm sure you've had a lot of patients who've gone in and out of the hospital because they choke easily on food and get aspirational pneumonia, recover, go home, choke again, go back to the hospital and so on. You say that you came to see pneumonia as an escape hatch for the body at the end of life. Can you talk about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. And, you know, any pneumonia is an infection in the lungs. Aspiration pneumonia in particular is a specific kind caused by aspirating food or drink or saliva into the wrong tube, into the windpi"}
{"id": "1086662380", "date": "2022-03-16", "guest": "Jonathan Reisman", "title": "A doctor reveals the hidden wonders of the human body", "question_index": 5, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here. Then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Dr. Jonathan Reisman, author of the new book \"The Unseen Body.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I tell the story of Suzanne (ph), who bounced back to the hospital again and again with aspiration pneumonia. And, you know, her end-of-life-experience, she ended up dying of that second bout in the h"}
{"id": "1086662380", "date": "2022-03-16", "guest": "Jonathan Reisman", "title": "A doctor reveals the hidden wonders of the human body", "question_index": 6, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Dr. Jonathan Reisman, a doctor of internal medicine, pediatrics and emergency medicine. His new book is called \"The Unseen Body: A Doctor's Journey Through The Hidden Wonders Of Human Anatomy.\" So before I ask you the next couple of questions, I want to tell our listeners that if you're squeamish about medical discussions of body fluids, these next few questions might not be for you. On the other hand, what Dr. Reisman has to say may make you more interested in how your body works and make you less uncomfortable with the jobs it has to perform. So another example of unusual design that can lead to problems is the parts of our body responsible for urination, defecation and sexual pleasure and, for women, giving birth are all crammed together in this one little region. And that's one of the reasons women get UTIs. What do you see as a doctor when you look at the design?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I tell the story of Suzanne (ph), who bounced back to the hospital again and again with aspiration pneumonia. And, you know, her end-of-life-experience, she ended up dying of that second bout in the h"}
{"id": "1086662380", "date": "2022-03-16", "guest": "Jonathan Reisman", "title": "A doctor reveals the hidden wonders of the human body", "question_index": 7, "text": "Were you initially uncomfortable dealing with the genital area, including the anus, because of its sexual aspects or just because of, like, the yuck aspects of defecation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So actually, it makes me think of the same design pattern and reasons for why the esophagus and the windpipe are so dangerously close to each other. You know, basically, all of us started out a"}
{"id": "1086662380", "date": "2022-03-16", "guest": "Jonathan Reisman", "title": "A doctor reveals the hidden wonders of the human body", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would say I had less of a problem with kind of the yuck aspects of it since I probably stopped maturing at 13 year old..."}
{"id": "1086662380", "date": "2022-03-16", "guest": "Jonathan Reisman", "title": "A doctor reveals the hidden wonders of the human body", "question_index": 9, "text": "You actually have a favorite body fluid. What is special about urine to you as a doctor?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...At 13 years old, like most men. But I would say it was more the social aspects that were difficult. You know, when you start training to be a doctor, you end up talking about everything from sex to"}
{"id": "1086662380", "date": "2022-03-16", "guest": "Jonathan Reisman", "title": "A doctor reveals the hidden wonders of the human body", "question_index": 10, "text": "You work with a lot of people living on the street in India, in Kolkata. So a lot of patients - I mean, those patients were obviously very poor. I think there's a lot of diarrhea in living conditions like that. You even picked up some of that yourself while you were living there. Diarrhea in children can lead to fatal dehydration if not treated. What were some of the clues you looked for in patients' stool in India, dealing with patients living on the street, to learn more about what their problem was and whether it was a serious problem or not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So urine has a unique place among bodily fluids. You know, most of a doctor's job is interpreting bodily fluids - you know, testing them, sending them to the lab to gather data to figure out what is w"}
{"id": "1086662380", "date": "2022-03-16", "guest": "Jonathan Reisman", "title": "A doctor reveals the hidden wonders of the human body", "question_index": 11, "text": "In the U.S., a really bad problem related to diarrhea is C. diff, which is usually a hospital- or nursing home-acquired infection that leads to very severe and uncontrollable diarrhea that can really lead to death if it's either untreated or if the treatment doesn't work. And the treatment is often antibiotics, but that doesn't always work. And even if it does, the C. diff can come back. And one of the treatments being used now, I think on a pretty experimental basis, is fecal transplants. And we've talked about this before on the show, but it sounds like you've dealt with it directly. So let's start with describing what that is and why it seems like a promising treatment.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So just like other bodily fluids can give messages to a doctor to figure out what's going on, stool is another one, and we interpret it in similar ways. So when someone has diarrhea, you know, which -"}
{"id": "1086662380", "date": "2022-03-16", "guest": "Jonathan Reisman", "title": "A doctor reveals the hidden wonders of the human body", "question_index": 12, "text": "You describe the fecal matter being put in a capsule and swallowed. And I thought, how can that be? We've all been taught at such a young age that you never, ever let anything that's touched fecal matter near your mouth. So how come it's OK to actually swallow it in a capsule?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So fecal material transplant - or FMT, or just fecal transplant - is a new, experimental modality where basically you take the stool from one person's colon and with it comes all these species of bact"}
{"id": "1086662380", "date": "2022-03-16", "guest": "Jonathan Reisman", "title": "A doctor reveals the hidden wonders of the human body", "question_index": 13, "text": "Let's take a short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Dr. Jonathan Reisman. He's the author of the new book \"The Unseen Body.\" We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So this is a very good question. And, you know, in the early days of fecal transplants, it was often delivered during a colonoscopy, where the liquid stool was sort of just placed in the colon while y"}
{"id": "1086662380", "date": "2022-03-16", "guest": "Jonathan Reisman", "title": "A doctor reveals the hidden wonders of the human body", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Dr. Jonathan Reisman, author of the new book \"The Unseen Body.\" It's about the insides of our bodies, the remarkable design of our organs, the messages contained in our body fluids and how things turn foul when something goes wrong. Each chapter is about a specific organ or body fluid from his perspective as a doctor. He's an internist, pediatrician and ER physician who's practiced medicine in remote regions and unique cultures, including the Arctic, high altitudes in Nepal, urban slums in Calcutta, India, and among the Oglala Sioux in South Dakota. He currently works in several emergency rooms in the Philadelphia area. You've had some very obese patients. And you say that your obese patients needlessly suffered. What are some of the messages you took away from that experience?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So this is a very good question. And, you know, in the early days of fecal transplants, it was often delivered during a colonoscopy, where the liquid stool was sort of just placed in the colon while y"}
{"id": "1086662380", "date": "2022-03-16", "guest": "Jonathan Reisman", "title": "A doctor reveals the hidden wonders of the human body", "question_index": 15, "text": "You quote the head of the Massachusetts General Hospital Obesity, Metabolism and Nutrition Institute. And he basically says that we call obesity a disease, but we treated differently than all other diseases. Doctors tend to see it as a patient's failure rather than a disease. In what sense do you think of it as a disease? And what are the implications of that for treating it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One of the messages that was shouted at me is just that our health care system is not designed for the biggest people. And I think overweight and obese people know that very well. Every time they go t"}
{"id": "1086662380", "date": "2022-03-16", "guest": "Jonathan Reisman", "title": "A doctor reveals the hidden wonders of the human body", "question_index": 16, "text": "One of the many things you've done in medicine is work as a hospitalist. So what's your diagnosis of hospitals and the ways that they are not suited to regaining health?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I compare it to addiction, actually, in the book, where in recent years, I think doctors have finally and begrudgingly come around to seeing addiction as sort of this combination of, you know, a perso"}
{"id": "1086662380", "date": "2022-03-16", "guest": "Jonathan Reisman", "title": "A doctor reveals the hidden wonders of the human body", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yeah. You say you used to wake up patients to, like, you know, check their vitals and talk with them. And with terminal patients now, you won't do that anymore.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, the list is very long. You know, sleep loss among the sick is an epidemic in hospitals these days, you know? Everyone's losing sleep. No one's sleeping well, partly because of stress and our smart"}
{"id": "1086662380", "date": "2022-03-16", "guest": "Jonathan Reisman", "title": "A doctor reveals the hidden wonders of the human body", "question_index": 18, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Dr. Jonathan Reisman, author of the new book \"The Unseen Body.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right, when I was training and I had a long list of patients. And I was still very inefficient with my movements, my rounding, where I saw each patient one by one in the morning before I had to"}
{"id": "1086662380", "date": "2022-03-16", "guest": "Jonathan Reisman", "title": "A doctor reveals the hidden wonders of the human body", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Dr. Jonathan Reisman, a doctor of internal medicine, pediatrics and emergency medicine. His new book is called \"The Unseen Body: A Doctor's Journey Through The Hidden Wonders Of Human Anatomy.\" You worked with patients who had liver disease hoping for a liver transplant, and you saw the fluids that build up in the body with that disease and cause a lot of pain for the person who has it. And even when you aspirate the fluid, it tends to build up again. So reading the liver chapter in your book, I thought, this doctor is never going to eat liver again. And it was actually the opposite. You hated liver, and you started eating it after attending to patients who had liver disease. Can you explain that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right, when I was training and I had a long list of patients. And I was still very inefficient with my movements, my rounding, where I saw each patient one by one in the morning before I had to"}
{"id": "1086662380", "date": "2022-03-16", "guest": "Jonathan Reisman", "title": "A doctor reveals the hidden wonders of the human body", "question_index": 20, "text": "So as you say, you went to a slaughterhouse. It was a kosher slaughterhouse. And you were learning there about the barrier between the outside and the inside of the body. Can you tell us what you learned?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, my journey to kind of become what we might call a foodie began in medical school, which is the opposite of what anyone would expect, specifically began in the class anatomy lab where I was diss"}
{"id": "1086662380", "date": "2022-03-16", "guest": "Jonathan Reisman", "title": "A doctor reveals the hidden wonders of the human body", "question_index": 21, "text": "Now, in keeping with this idea, this idea that you've connected medicine with expanding your taste in food, you actually have collaborated with a chef named Ari Miller on something called Anatomy Eats, in which my understanding is you take people to a dinner and the chef explains the food. And you explain what?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had sought out a slaughterhouse. I actually didn't know it was kosher until I got there. I noticed there was a group of rabbis looking at the animal's lungs. And so I realized this was a kosher slau"}
{"id": "1086662380", "date": "2022-03-16", "guest": "Jonathan Reisman", "title": "A doctor reveals the hidden wonders of the human body", "question_index": 22, "text": "So what do your vegan friends think of your collaboration with the chef in which you show the raw organs, talk about the muscles and the blood and everything and then cook it and serve it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So for each dinner, we concentrate on one of the bodily systems. For instance, we held a cardiovascular system dinner where all the main ingredients in the dishes came from the cardiovascular system. "}
{"id": "1086662380", "date": "2022-03-16", "guest": "Jonathan Reisman", "title": "A doctor reveals the hidden wonders of the human body", "question_index": 23, "text": "So I know you plan to donate your body to science, which was a decision you made when you were a medical student after cutting open your first cadaver. What is the process like when you do that? I know how to say that you want it donated, but then what happens? And then what happens to the remains of your body after it's donated to science?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, they're not always thrilled about it, naturally, understandably. But I think that actually someone like me who wants to know every dirty truth about the food I'm eating - I don't want "}
{"id": "1086662380", "date": "2022-03-16", "guest": "Jonathan Reisman", "title": "A doctor reveals the hidden wonders of the human body", "question_index": 24, "text": "Well. Dr. Jonathan Reisman, a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It depends on what you want your body to go to. So in my case, I want to donate my body for medical school dissection as I experienced from the first day of med school. So actually, in that case, you "}
{"id": "1086662380", "date": "2022-03-16", "guest": "Jonathan Reisman", "title": "A doctor reveals the hidden wonders of the human body", "question_index": 25, "text": "Dr. Jonathan Reisman is the author of the new book \"The Unseen Body.\" After we take a short break, jazz critic Kevin Whitehead will remember trumpet player and bandleader Ron Miles. He died last week at age 58. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's been an honor."}
{"id": "1086986950", "date": "2022-03-17", "guest": "Mary Elise Sarotte", "title": "Russia's war in Ukraine has NATO on alert. Here's how we got to this point", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Russia's war in Ukraine is testing NATO. What can it do to support Ukraine against Russia without leading to World War III? Russia has bombed a Ukrainian city just 15 miles from the border of Poland, a NATO country. This week, NATO's secretary general said NATO needs to reset its military posture for this new reality. President Zelenskyy has pushed for NATO to admit Ukraine as a member. But this week, Zelenskyy said he realized that door had been closed. Putin would see it as a grave threat if Ukraine joined NATO. That would open the possibility of NATO weapons along the long border shared by Russia and Ukraine. My guest, Mary Elise Sarotte, is the author of a book about the history of NATO in the years just before and after the collapse of the Soviet Union. It's called \"Not One Inch,\" and it helps explain how NATO, Ukraine and Russia got to where they are today. It's based in part on papers she got declassified after fighting for years to get them released. Sarotte is the Kravis professor of historical studies at the Johns Hopkins School of Advanced International Studies, and she's a member of the Council on Foreign Relations. She's also the author of an earlier book about the collapse of the Berlin Wall. We recorded our interview yesterday. Mary Elise Sarotte, welcome to FRESH AIR. Zelenskyy has given the message that Ukraine is just the first battle in the fight against democracy being waged by Putin. Do you think that Ukraine is just the start?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1086986950", "date": "2022-03-17", "guest": "Mary Elise Sarotte", "title": "Russia's war in Ukraine has NATO on alert. Here's how we got to this point", "question_index": 1, "text": "If Putin decides to move further past Ukraine into a NATO country, some people think it would be the Baltics - Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia. Zelenskyy seems to think a Baltic country would be next. How would that test NATO?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I fear that Zelenskyy may be right. I fear that we may be entering a new Cold War, only this Cold War could be very different from the last Cold War because many of the guardrails from that competitio"}
{"id": "1086986950", "date": "2022-03-17", "guest": "Mary Elise Sarotte", "title": "Russia's war in Ukraine has NATO on alert. Here's how we got to this point", "question_index": 2, "text": "Do you think Putin wants to test NATO's resolve?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Baltics are members of NATO, and the heart of the NATO treaty is, of course, as many of your listeners will know, Article 5. Article 5 is the clause that stipulates any member state of NATO must t"}
{"id": "1086986950", "date": "2022-03-17", "guest": "Mary Elise Sarotte", "title": "Russia's war in Ukraine has NATO on alert. Here's how we got to this point", "question_index": 3, "text": "Yeah, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That is hard to say. And I very much hope that we won't find out. And that is one of the reasons of getting out (ph)."}
{"id": "1086986950", "date": "2022-03-17", "guest": "Mary Elise Sarotte", "title": "Russia's war in Ukraine has NATO on alert. Here's how we got to this point", "question_index": 4, "text": "So NATO now has 30 member countries, and they're all pledged to see an attack on one as an attack on all. Compare that to the original vision of NATO before it expanded into Central and Eastern Europe.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That is one of the reasons why I believe it is important that we maintain our contacts with Beijing because Putin is increasingly isolated. He's increasingly becoming a pariah. And he's having to rely"}
{"id": "1086986950", "date": "2022-03-17", "guest": "Mary Elise Sarotte", "title": "Russia's war in Ukraine has NATO on alert. Here's how we got to this point", "question_index": 5, "text": "Has NATO ever been tested like this before?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the salient fact is that that is still the original vision of NATO. But obviously the circumstances have changed. NATO came into existence in 1949 as an alliance of 12 countries against the Sovi"}
{"id": "1086986950", "date": "2022-03-17", "guest": "Mary Elise Sarotte", "title": "Russia's war in Ukraine has NATO on alert. Here's how we got to this point", "question_index": 6, "text": "Joining NATO had been a priority for Ukraine, for Zelenskyy. But this week, Zelenskyy said he realized that the door to NATO is closed to Ukraine. Did NATO ever promise Ukraine or lead Ukraine to believe that it could become a NATO member?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, obviously, the Cold War itself was one giant test. The Cold War was a thermonuclear standoff, as you, of course, remember and as I remember. So in a sense, yes, NATO has been tested in a big-pic"}
{"id": "1086986950", "date": "2022-03-17", "guest": "Mary Elise Sarotte", "title": "Russia's war in Ukraine has NATO on alert. Here's how we got to this point", "question_index": 7, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Mary Elise Sarotte, author of the book \"Not One Inch,\" about the history of NATO in the years just before and after the collapse of the Soviet Union. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, NATO actually stated Ukraine will become a NATO member at its Bucharest summit in 2008. By 2008, many countries had already joined NATO, and Ukraine and Georgia were showing interest as well. Th"}
{"id": "1086986950", "date": "2022-03-17", "guest": "Mary Elise Sarotte", "title": "Russia's war in Ukraine has NATO on alert. Here's how we got to this point", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Mary Elise Sarotte, author of the book \"Not One Inch,\" about the history of NATO in the years just before and after the collapse of the Soviet Union. Ukraine declared its independence from the Soviet Union in 1991, and that contributed to the dissolution of the Soviet Union. Did Putin hold that against Ukraine? Is that part of what's - what we're seeing playing out now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, NATO actually stated Ukraine will become a NATO member at its Bucharest summit in 2008. By 2008, many countries had already joined NATO, and Ukraine and Georgia were showing interest as well. Th"}
{"id": "1086986950", "date": "2022-03-17", "guest": "Mary Elise Sarotte", "title": "Russia's war in Ukraine has NATO on alert. Here's how we got to this point", "question_index": 9, "text": "When Ukraine did declare its independence from the Soviet Union in 1991, Ukraine became the third-largest nuclear power, but it gave up its nukes in a bargain. What was the deal that led Ukraine to denuclearize?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, absolutely. If I could provide a little bit of context on Putin and then address your question directly, Putin, to all appearances, likes to mark birthdays and anniversaries in gruesome ways. And"}
{"id": "1086986950", "date": "2022-03-17", "guest": "Mary Elise Sarotte", "title": "Russia's war in Ukraine has NATO on alert. Here's how we got to this point", "question_index": 10, "text": "Was there a tacit understanding that other signatories to the Budapest Agreement would have come to Ukraine's aid when Russia violated the agreement?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, as you rightly say, Ukraine was born nuclear. I have to caveat that a little bit. What that means is that because of the amount of Soviet arsenal on its territory, it was on paper the third-large"}
{"id": "1086986950", "date": "2022-03-17", "guest": "Mary Elise Sarotte", "title": "Russia's war in Ukraine has NATO on alert. Here's how we got to this point", "question_index": 11, "text": "Your book starts in 1989 when the Berlin Wall falls and Germany is unified. So East Germany is no longer aligned with the Soviet Union. It's no longer communist after the wall falls. So Gorbachev didn't use force to keep East Germany in the Soviet sphere, but Putin, who at the time was stationed in East Germany in the KGB - and you describe him as a bit player in the KGB at that time. Putin thought that Gorbachev should have used force. And you say that Putin actually called KGB headquarters to get permission to shoot protesters near his office.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The problem with the Budapest Memorandum was that it, as I said, was vague on specifics and gave assurances, not guarantees. The Ukrainians at the time, they were savvy. They sensed that the Budapest "}
{"id": "1086986950", "date": "2022-03-17", "guest": "Mary Elise Sarotte", "title": "Russia's war in Ukraine has NATO on alert. Here's how we got to this point", "question_index": 12, "text": "Let's take another break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Mary Elise Sarotte, author of the book \"Not One Inch\" about the history of NATO in the years just before and after the collapse of the Soviet Union. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He actually called Soviet troops based nearby because he wanted firepower right away, and he was amazed that Moscow was not using force to maintain its dominant position in East Germany. And this appa"}
{"id": "1086986950", "date": "2022-03-17", "guest": "Mary Elise Sarotte", "title": "Russia's war in Ukraine has NATO on alert. Here's how we got to this point", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Mary Elise Sarotte. Her latest book, \"Not One Inch,\" is about the history of NATO in the years just before and after the collapse of the Soviet Union. The book helps explain how NATO, Ukraine and Russia got to where they are today. The book is based in part on papers she got declassified after fighting for years to get them released. Sarotte is the Kravis Professor of Historical Studies at Johns Hopkins University School of Advanced International Studies. You described how Putin loves anniversaries and loves, you know, quote, \"gifts\" on his birthday. So in late 2021, around the time of the 30th anniversary of the end of the Soviet Union, Putin made a speech in which he said, not an inch to the east. We were told in the '90s that NATO wouldn't move an inch to the east. They cheated us vehemently, blatantly. Your book is titled \"Not One Inch.\" Can you explain that reference?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He actually called Soviet troops based nearby because he wanted firepower right away, and he was amazed that Moscow was not using force to maintain its dominant position in East Germany. And this appa"}
{"id": "1086986950", "date": "2022-03-17", "guest": "Mary Elise Sarotte", "title": "Russia's war in Ukraine has NATO on alert. Here's how we got to this point", "question_index": 14, "text": "Yeah. Because James Baker brings this idea back to President George H.W. Bush, and Bush says, no way. We're not going to promise them that. So Putin was never promised that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. So once the Berlin Wall came down in 1989, it was obvious the Germans wanted to unify. The problem was that Nazi Germany had surrendered unconditionally. So all those years later, there were sti"}
{"id": "1086986950", "date": "2022-03-17", "guest": "Mary Elise Sarotte", "title": "Russia's war in Ukraine has NATO on alert. Here's how we got to this point", "question_index": 15, "text": "So this agreement was made with Gorbachev. It wasn't made with Putin, but Putin still sees it as a betrayal.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, at the time, Putin was a junior KGB agent. So they're dealing with the Soviet leader, Mikhail Gorbachev. When Baker gets home from that conversation and talks to President Bush, President Bush s"}
{"id": "1086986950", "date": "2022-03-17", "guest": "Mary Elise Sarotte", "title": "Russia's war in Ukraine has NATO on alert. Here's how we got to this point", "question_index": 16, "text": "After the collapse of the Soviet Union, NATO starts adding countries in Central and Eastern Europe that had been part of the Soviet bloc. Why didn't they still want to expand? Maybe the answer is obvious, but I'd like to hear the answer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. So Putin talks only about the first part of that sequence of negotiations where Secretary of State James Baker did say in a hypothetical fashion, how about you let your half of Germany go, and we"}
{"id": "1086986950", "date": "2022-03-17", "guest": "Mary Elise Sarotte", "title": "Russia's war in Ukraine has NATO on alert. Here's how we got to this point", "question_index": 17, "text": "There was a debate about whether NATO should expansion or not. Was the fear that if it expanded, Russia would see it as a threat and that it would hurt whatever cooperation America and Russia were starting to establish?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Well, it's not just NATO. It's many countries in Central and Eastern Europe who want to become NATO members. In particular, places like Poland, like Czechoslovakia, which then breaks up into the"}
{"id": "1086986950", "date": "2022-03-17", "guest": "Mary Elise Sarotte", "title": "Russia's war in Ukraine has NATO on alert. Here's how we got to this point", "question_index": 18, "text": "What was the impact on nuclear disarmament?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. So the cost per inch of NATO expansion increased the closer you got to Moscow. It's one thing for a country like Spain to become a member, which had happened during the Cold War. But it's another"}
{"id": "1086986950", "date": "2022-03-17", "guest": "Mary Elise Sarotte", "title": "Russia's war in Ukraine has NATO on alert. Here's how we got to this point", "question_index": 19, "text": "But Bill Clinton's president in part of the '90s, and he gets along pretty well with Boris Yeltsin, the president of Russia. So what happened to their relationship? Why didn't that lead to more cooperation on nuclear treaties?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The impact is part of the broader deterioration in the relationship between Washington and Moscow. The thaw of the 1990s was this time where Washington and Moscow could work together on nuclear disarm"}
{"id": "1086986950", "date": "2022-03-17", "guest": "Mary Elise Sarotte", "title": "Russia's war in Ukraine has NATO on alert. Here's how we got to this point", "question_index": 20, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Mary Elise Sarotte, author of the book \"Not One Inch\" about the history of NATO in the years just before and after the collapse of the Soviet Union. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, their relationship initially is quite remarkable. It's the Bill-Boris bromance. They met more times than any presidents and Soviet leaders or Russian leaders before or since. They met 18 times in"}
{"id": "1086986950", "date": "2022-03-17", "guest": "Mary Elise Sarotte", "title": "Russia's war in Ukraine has NATO on alert. Here's how we got to this point", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Mary Elise Sarotte. Her latest book, \"Not One Inch,\" is about the history of NATO in the years just before and after the collapse of the Soviet Union. It helps explain how NATO, Ukraine and Russia got to where they are today. You got access to papers, after years of trying to get them declassified, of conversations, meetings between President Bill Clinton and Russian President Boris Yeltsin. So in addition to learning about Clinton and Yeltsin and their relationship, you learned about Putin 'cause Putin worked with Yeltsin while Yeltsin was president, and Putin succeeds Yeltsin as president of Russia. What are some of the insights into Putin that you got through these declassified papers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, their relationship initially is quite remarkable. It's the Bill-Boris bromance. They met more times than any presidents and Soviet leaders or Russian leaders before or since. They met 18 times in"}
{"id": "1086986950", "date": "2022-03-17", "guest": "Mary Elise Sarotte", "title": "Russia's war in Ukraine has NATO on alert. Here's how we got to this point", "question_index": 22, "text": "So the deal was Yeltsin could keep his money and possessions that he got in corrupt ways if he appoints Putin to be his successor.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. These papers come largely from the Clinton Presidential Library but also from the State Department and other government agencies. And I also worked with Russian language sources as well. And in p"}
{"id": "1086986950", "date": "2022-03-17", "guest": "Mary Elise Sarotte", "title": "Russia's war in Ukraine has NATO on alert. Here's how we got to this point", "question_index": 23, "text": "You know, when President George W. Bush met Putin for the first time, he said, I looked into his eyes, and I saw his soul. How did some people initially get Putin so wrong? Did Putin change that much over the years, or did a lot of people just, like, misread him, including President Bush - George W. Bush?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes - more broadly speaking, Yeltsin and family and friends and associates around him. And unsurprisingly, once Putin becomes president, he de facto pardons Yeltsin and protects Yeltsin until his deat"}
{"id": "1086986950", "date": "2022-03-17", "guest": "Mary Elise Sarotte", "title": "Russia's war in Ukraine has NATO on alert. Here's how we got to this point", "question_index": 24, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Mary Elise Sarotte, author of the book \"Not One Inch,\" about the history of NATO in the years just before and after the collapse of the Soviet Union. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think it varied. So, for example, former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, who is a fairly sharp observer - she sensed early on - she, of course, was the secretary of state for President "}
{"id": "1086986950", "date": "2022-03-17", "guest": "Mary Elise Sarotte", "title": "Russia's war in Ukraine has NATO on alert. Here's how we got to this point", "question_index": 25, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Mary Elise Sarotte, author of the book \"Not One Inch,\" about the history of NATO and the years just before and after the collapse of the Soviet Union. What's left of our nuclear treaties with Russia?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think it varied. So, for example, former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, who is a fairly sharp observer - she sensed early on - she, of course, was the secretary of state for President "}
{"id": "1086986950", "date": "2022-03-17", "guest": "Mary Elise Sarotte", "title": "Russia's war in Ukraine has NATO on alert. Here's how we got to this point", "question_index": 26, "text": "When Trump was president, he complained a lot about NATO, about how other countries weren't paying their share of their dues, and they'd better shape up. How close did Trump come to pulling out of NATO?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Almost nothing, sadly. That is something that worries me greatly, as I mentioned in a New York Times op-ed a couple of weeks ago. Those arms control treaties were, in a sense, guardrails on the Cold W"}
{"id": "1086986950", "date": "2022-03-17", "guest": "Mary Elise Sarotte", "title": "Russia's war in Ukraine has NATO on alert. Here's how we got to this point", "question_index": 27, "text": "After the breakup of the Soviet Union, were there things the U.S. could have done differently, including in nuclear talks and including in the expansion of NATO, so as to not have antagonized Putin?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's exactly what Trump said. That was, however, a misunderstanding of how NATO finances work. So that was - it showed Trump's lack of understanding of NATO. Countries, in essence, fund their own mi"}
{"id": "1086986950", "date": "2022-03-17", "guest": "Mary Elise Sarotte", "title": "Russia's war in Ukraine has NATO on alert. Here's how we got to this point", "question_index": 28, "text": "Your book is titled \"Not One Inch: America, Russia, And The Making Of Post-Cold War Stalemate.\" Are we still in stalemate?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. So I argue in my book that NATO enlargement itself was a perfectly justifiable policy. The problem was how it happened. In other words, it happened in a way that maximized friction with Moscow a"}
{"id": "1086986950", "date": "2022-03-17", "guest": "Mary Elise Sarotte", "title": "Russia's war in Ukraine has NATO on alert. Here's how we got to this point", "question_index": 29, "text": "Well, I want to thank you for using your knowledge of history to help us better understand what's happening now in Ukraine and with NATO. So thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Between NATO and Russia? Yes. And that is why it is so painful for us right now, because we are stalemated. We see the horrors happening in Ukraine. We see the maternity wards being bombed. We see tha"}
{"id": "1086986950", "date": "2022-03-17", "guest": "Mary Elise Sarotte", "title": "Russia's war in Ukraine has NATO on alert. Here's how we got to this point", "question_index": 30, "text": "Mary Elise Sarotte is the author of \"Not One Inch.\" If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, like this week's interviews with Seth Meyers, host of \"Late Night,\" and Marie Yovanovitch, a star witness in the first impeachment of Donald Trump which revolved around Ukraine, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Seth Kelley and John Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, thank you for bringing attention to this important issue. I'm really grateful."}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Now, I read that you spent some time in a prison talking to inmates so that you could learn about what...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When Terry spoke with William Hurt, he played a man just released from prison in the film \"The Yellow Handkerchief.\""}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 1, "text": "...Your character might be like. So what prison did you go to, and what did you want to know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 2, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We were in Angola in northern Louisiana. And I spent one night in maximum security there. I think I'm the only person who electively has done that."}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 3, "text": "So what did you take away from the experience of being in Angola, in prison and speaking to prisoners who were in the maximum-security wing? What did you take away from that that you were able to use in the movie?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think someone else tried to but screamed and gave up at midnight. I spoke with every member on that row who's incarcerated in an 8 foot by 4 foot cell 23 hours a day for the rest of their lives - th"}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Were you shocked by anything you heard?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's pretty limitless - primarily sorrow for them. Most of the time I would ask them, why are you here? And most of the time they would answer, second-degree murder. Of 5,108 inmates, 85% of the peopl"}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 5, "text": "For movies or for other reasons?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I've been around. So, I mean, I've talked - I - this isn't the first time I've talked to prisoners. It isn't the first time I've talked to murderers."}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 6, "text": "Whoa. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Let's back up. What happened? Why were you taken hostage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For various reasons - I used to visit prisons. You'd call it charitable work. I had worked with some people who were involved in a prison program, and they periodically visited the prisons in Rockland"}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Was this while you were making \"Kiss Of The Spider Woman?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We were..."}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 8, "text": "How'd you get out of this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And we had 36 hours off from filming. And me and my date at the time got into a car, and we drove south to a village where her parents had a small villa in a very modest town with dirt streets. A"}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Did you say that to him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well - what do they say in Sanskrit? They say life is about creation, sustenance, dissolution, control and the bestowal of grace, right? Probably the bestowal of grace. We were in the house for an hou"}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 10, "text": "And he said?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did eventually, yeah."}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Right. After hearing that story, we should hear what you were doing professionally as that was happening with you and listen to a clip from \"Kiss Of The Spider Woman\" because, I mean, now, in that movie, you're in prison. We've been talking about prison. You were nearly killed while making this movie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he drove me to the ground. He put the gun in my forehead, and he leaned on it with all his might, and he was screaming at me. And we both went to the floor, his face a few inches from mine. He's s"}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Why? Because people would've been scared?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we weren't allowed to tell anybody about it at the time because we would have had to stop making the movie."}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 13, "text": "The two stars of the film are you and Raul Julia. And you're both in a prison cell together. You're there - you play a drag queen who's had sex with an underage boy. That's why you're in prison. He's there - he's a political prisoner. He's in the resistance.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2010 interview with William Hurt. The Oscar-winning actor died last Sunday at age 71. When we left off, they were talking about making the film \"Kiss Of Th"}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 14, "text": "No. Who was it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't - not an underage boy."}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Just for being gay. Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They said it was, but it was just for being homosexual."}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 16, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just for being gay."}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yes. Because you're kind of a drag queen in it. And you have this real, like, romantic view of the world. You have a very romantic sensibility. And even though you're in prison, you're wearing this, like, flowered robe, and you've put a towel on your head as a turban. And because Raul Julia is in such pain, he's been tortured, he's bleeding, you're trying to divert him and entertain him by telling the story of a film that you saw that you think is a really, like, thrilling and romantic film. And you're kind of doing it as if you're narrating the film. You're telling him the whole story of the film. And he kind of figures out that it's a film - it's a Nazi propaganda film. But you don't realize that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And for being flagrant about it."}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 18, "text": "Yeah. So in this scene from the beginning of the film, you're narrating the movie, and Raul Julia keeps interrupting you with kind of cynical comments. He is not a romantic like you are, and you're defending the film before continuing the story of the film. Here's the scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, but I didn't get that. But I interpret it as romantic sentimentalism."}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 19, "text": "That's my guest, William Hurt, with Raul Julia in a scene from the film \"Kiss Of The Spider Woman.\" It's such a good film. Your character in that is someone who sees life as theater, you know, life as - you know, he wants his life to be theater.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Luis Molina) I don't know. That's just the background. This is where the important part begins, the part about the lovers. It's divine."}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 20, "text": "That's right. Yeah. He ends up becoming quite political in the end.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But he ends up sacrificing himself for his..."}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Now, in playing a drag queen in \"Kiss Of The Spider Woman,\" what did you want to capture about the character's way of moving and speaking?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he ends up sacrificing himself for the person he loves."}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 22, "text": "When you say you played the character as a woman, not as a gay man...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Capture isn't my word for anything. It's more like release. It was that there is something in that man, that human being. So I didn't play him, by the way, as gay. I played him as a woman. And it was "}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 23, "text": "You had mentioned years ago in an interview that when you were rehearsing with Raul Julia, you switched roles with him so that he played...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The key for me as an artist - as I was researching the character, I had a wonderful teacher there, a dance teacher who was helping me try to figure out how to move, 'cause every character has differen"}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Did you change anything about your performance after that exercise?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a very rare technique to use between actors because actors should never comment on each other. But Raul and I had a great friendship, and we respected each other very much as artists. So I sugges"}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 25, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I enhanced it. He was so much better than I was, in my view, at what we were doing that I went - we went running back, and I said - I knocked, I hammered on the director's door, and I said, we have to"}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 26, "text": "Now, earlier, you mentioned that you're very interested in people who've gone off the track. So I thought I'd play an example of one of your roles - the character has gone off the track.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross. We're listening back to Terry's 2010 interview with actor William Hurt. He died Sunday at the age of 71. In the 1980s, he became famous for "}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 27, "text": "And this is another great film, \"A History\" - it's called \"History Of Violence.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no."}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 28, "text": "And your - it's a movie that's directed by David Cronenberg. You're only in one scene in this. But you are so good that, you know, when you leave the movie, you're thinking", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh."}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 29, "text": "- you're thinking about this scene. So the main character in the movie - you're the brother of the main character in the movie. The main character in the movie is played by Viggo Mortensen. He used to be a gangster, but he wanted out of that life. So he's moved to a small town. He's changed his name. He's renounced violence. He now owns a diner that he runs with his wife. He has a - he has, I think, two children and then, just to - I won't complicate things, but he gets dragged into violence after the diner is robbed. And then his past starts coming up to haunt him. And he knows that you, his brother, who's still in crime, is in part to blame for this. So he goes to pay you a call at your fancy home. And first, you have him frisked, even though he's not carrying. And then you pour yourself a drink. You give him a big kiss and a big hug. And he's just, like, wincing because he doesn't even want to be in your presence. He just wants out. And then you explain why you can't let him off the hook. Here's the scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh."}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 30, "text": "And that's the sounds of one of your henchmen trying to", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Richie Cusack) You could do something, I guess. You could die, Joey."}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 31, "text": "kill Viggo Mortensen. It's such a good scene. And this character - you play him, and he sounds like an overgrown child. He sounds like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Richie Cusack) You could do something, I guess. You could die, Joey."}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 32, "text": "...Like a child who has a lot of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 33, "text": "...Like, a lot of power and a lot of guns.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's exactly right. He never got out of it."}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 34, "text": "So tell us more about, like, just the way you play the role, like, what you did to prepare for it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's right back there in the room where his mother's whacking him down for doing exactly what she told him to do, which is win. Be your little man. Be the guy. Be the macho boy, beat all comers, inclu"}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 35, "text": "David Cronenberg, the director.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that was - you know, David was so kind with me."}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 36, "text": "Yeah. Well, I was going to ask you - this is such a - this is literally...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes, yes. I went - I arrived ten days early. I filmed only for a couple days. I'm of the belief there are no small roles, only small actors. You know that old phrase?"}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 37, "text": "In terms of time, it's a small role. In terms of impact, it's big.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, but then that..."}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 38, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But that framework doesn't work for me, you know?"}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 39, "text": "OK. So getting back to playing the role and preparing for it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Who cares? You know, if your life - some people have - you know, I've met 8-year-olds that have more wisdom than 80-year-olds. So. So my mom died young, and she had a great life. So, you know, you can"}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 40, "text": "This is Maria Bello. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I arrived 10 days early, and I asked him if he'd pay for a hotel room and get me a dialect coach. And he did. And then the key was Viggo's generosity, because even though he was at the end of a "}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 41, "text": "And what did you want the dialect coach for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. She was the one who actually filled us all in because she came from Philadelphia. She knew all about it. And she and Viggo had done all this research together. So Viggo passed it on to me, and I"}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 42, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So I thought it was so funny. And that's what I basically did with him - was create these bigger-than-thou, bigger-than-himself images so that he could bluster his way through life and pretend that "}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 43, "text": "You were telling me before the interview started that you actually live in Oregon in a unpopulated area.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Because she was the one who trounced him for being - for doing exactly what he - what she and his dad had told him to do, which is be No. 1 and pounce on everybody else."}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 44, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I live in the county where my mother was born and buried."}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 45, "text": "Is that why you live there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 46, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's basically it. I took my two middle boys there after we had troubles, you know, relating to their mom, who was sick. And after I got them back into my permanent custody, I was looking for a plac"}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 47, "text": "It sounds like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Where there was a lady who knew the difference between a math grade and a human being. And we're doing great."}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 48, "text": "...Your mother came from a background of small town and poverty. Your father came from a family with a Supreme Court justice in it. It sounds like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 49, "text": "...Two very different places they came from.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But..."}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 50, "text": "Your father was in the State Department or something?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were very different. They met in China. I was conceived in China. I was conceived in Shanghai, China in '49. My..."}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 51, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He became a member of the State - the State Department didn't exist at that time."}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 52, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But the Department of the Interior did, and State evolved out of that. My mom, during the war, had gotten pregnant by - with her husband, an American soldier, in New York City, having come, you know, "}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 53, "text": "Well, William Hurt, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so it's been a - it's been quite a journey. And from all that, I have had three amazing parents - my father, my stepfather and my mother. And they bestowed on me amazing privileges of education an"}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 54, "text": "It's been great to talk with you. Thank you again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're welcome. All right."}
{"id": "1087169803", "date": "2022-03-18", "guest": "William Hurt", "title": "Remembering William Hurt, star of 'Broadcast News' and 'The Big Chill'", "question_index": 55, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Same here."}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest is pianist Jeremy Denk. If you've ever taken music lessons or if you appreciate the insights musicians share about the music they play, I think you'll enjoy what he has to say. He's an acclaimed classical pianist who's also a fine writer with a gift for explaining the structure of the pieces he performs and what makes them technically and emotionally exciting. He's written a new memoir called \"Every Good Boy Does Fine: A Love Story In Music Lessons.\" The title refers to a phrase children learn when they first start to read music to help them memorize the notes on the five lines of the treble clef. Those notes, E-G-B-D-F, correspond to the first letter of each word in every good boy does fine. The book is about how he learned to play, the teachers who shaped him and what it was like to be a classical prodigy in a world where few kids cared about classical music and some truly hated it. Denk received a MacArthur Fellowship, aka the genius award, and the Avery Fisher Prize. His recording of the \"Goldberg Variations\" reached No. 1 on the Billboard classical chart. His album of compositions by Beethoven and Ligeti was named one of the best discs of the year by The New Yorker, NPR and The Washington Post. In The New York Times, music critic Steve Smith wrote that Denk is a pianist you want to hear, no matter what he performs and that his interpretations conveyed the sense of composers grappling with the ineffable, inventing new vocabulary to express the inexpressible. Jeremy Denk, welcome back to FRESH AIR. It's such a pleasure to have you back on our show. You have a really interesting album from a couple of years ago in which you play piano music from 1300 to 2000. So the album is aptly called \"c.1300-c.2000\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 1, "text": ". So I want to start with a Bach piece from that album. This is Bach's \"Chromatic Fantasy And Fugue In D Minor\" (ph). Can you just say a little bit about why you love this piece and why you chose it for this album?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 2, "text": "Well, let's hear it. This is Jeremy Denk at the piano.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I love all the pieces of Bach where you get a taste of him maybe improvising and his virtuosity, both as a composer, of course, you know, but as a performer, the sense of touching the keyboa"}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 3, "text": "That was Jeremy Denk playing the \"Bach: Chromatic Fantasia And Fugue In D Minor.\" So, Jeremy, that's why you have to learn to play scales, right? That's where all", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I love all the pieces of Bach where you get a taste of him maybe improvising and his virtuosity, both as a composer, of course, you know, but as a performer, the sense of touching the keyboa"}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 4, "text": "- all of your work, like, learning scales, learning scales, playing them over, over and over again really pays off because you can just - that is such a complicated piece. But it's built on scales.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I love all the pieces of Bach where you get a taste of him maybe improvising and his virtuosity, both as a composer, of course, you know, but as a performer, the sense of touching the keyboa"}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 5, "text": "Your book is so much about piano lessons. Did you hate it when you had to spend hours and hours earlier in your life playing scales and when, like some of your teachers didn't even want to play music with you, you know, have you play music for them until you mastered, like, the basics, the scales?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's built on scales. And then there's all these kind of whorls and curls and curlicues and, you know, kind of devilish turns within the scales. But yes, there was a reason why you had to suffer all t"}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 6, "text": "How did they make it clear to you in a meaningful way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, my teacher when I was in my, you know, early teens, we spent summers basically only on technique with very little music. And those were his moments to sort of have me under his control and build"}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 7, "text": "Physical, like in your hands?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, a lot of it, of course, is like you would do with a tennis coach - right? - or whatever. You have to pay attention to physical changes that you have to make, and you have to kind of try to build"}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 8, "text": "In the piece that we heard, the Bach piece, it's a very complicated piece. You're playing lots of notes in each hand at a rapid speed. And you also have to breathe. And, you know, speaking for myself when I'm doing something really complicated, I don't think I actually breathe", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Are you going to raise your thumb more? Are you going to bring your second finger down more slowly? Are you going to use your wrist more? Are you going to engage the arm? You know, it could be a"}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 9, "text": ". Or if I do breathe, it's really shallow breathing. Did you have to learn how to breathe while playing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Are you going to raise your thumb more? Are you going to bring your second finger down more slowly? Are you going to use your wrist more? Are you going to engage the arm? You know, it could be a"}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 10, "text": "So you mentioned your teacher, Gyorgy Sebok, who was your teacher when you were at Oberlin in your final year there. And he was a pianist from Hungary who'd performed with the top musicians and conductors and would tell you stories about them. What did he teach you about breathing? - 'cause he talked to you about different composers' breaths. I'm not really sure what that means. What did that mean to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Most definitely, I did, and I still do. And one of the beautiful things that Sebok explained that I maybe didn't put in the book - my teacher, Gyorgy Sebok, in Bloomington - was that there is a "}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 11, "text": "Let's talk about your parents and your early lessons. Your mother would be in another room kind of hollering out", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know, often palpitating, you know, incredibly intense music. And you have to figure out how to find repose within his, you know, romantic frenzy."}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 12, "text": "her critique of your playing. You're not the only - people far less talented than you", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know, often palpitating, you know, incredibly intense music. And you have to figure out how to find repose within his, you know, romantic frenzy."}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 13, "text": "experience that, too. So tell us what your mother would yell out to you while you were practicing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know, often palpitating, you know, incredibly intense music. And you have to figure out how to find repose within his, you know, romantic frenzy."}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, we're talking about your parents' feedback. What did your father have to say about your music when you were young?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, for her, there was a two-tier grading system. Either the music danced, or it didn't dance, you know? So I'd be there in the middle of, you know, practicing something probably for the 10th time a"}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 15, "text": "So I want to play another piece. And this piece earlier than the Bach piece that we heard. And this is by Henry Purcell. It's called \"Ground In C Minor.\" It's very beautiful. And it's much more spare than the Bach that we heard. Can you talk about this piece and what it represents in music history and why you love it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my father, he'd - both of them loved music, you know? He always wanted me to play this one Bach chorale - one very sad Bach chorale. He - it was called \"Come, Sweet Death.\" And he kept begging m"}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 16, "text": "Yeah, it's beautiful. So this is Henry Purcell's \"Ground In C Minor\" performed by my guest, Jeremy Denk.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think, first of all, it's beautiful on its own account, right? And I was creating a program sort of chaining, you know, musical style from the earliest, you know, medieval times, classical - W"}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 17, "text": "That's Jeremy Denk at the piano from his album of music, \"c.1300-c.2000.\" Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining me, my guest is the great pianist Jeremy Denk. His new memoir is called \"Every Good Boy Does Fine: A Love Story, In Music Lessons.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think, first of all, it's beautiful on its own account, right? And I was creating a program sort of chaining, you know, musical style from the earliest, you know, medieval times, classical - W"}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jeremy Denk, the great pianist who has written a new memoir called \"Every Good Boy Does Fine: A Love Story, In Music Lessons.\" The first piano you had was from a burlesque house in Atlantic City. Can you describe the piano and how your family ended up owning it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think, first of all, it's beautiful on its own account, right? And I was creating a program sort of chaining, you know, musical style from the earliest, you know, medieval times, classical - W"}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 19, "text": "There's a story you tell in your book that I think is so telling about what your childhood must have been like as somebody who loved and was studying classical music and who had no interest in the pop music of your time. And let's - so let's start with when you were in school - and I should mention here that you spent part of your childhood in New Jersey, which your parents hated, and then your father got a job in New Mexico, so you moved there. So your schooling was in both places, New Jersey and New Mexico. And it sounds like you were a kind of kid who didn't socialize a lot, kept to yourself a lot.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "this piano that he found, that he got, you know, basically for free from a burlesque house in Atlantic City. And it was covered with graffiti - filthy graffiti, honestly. It had been carved and, you k"}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 20, "text": "And probably part of that was because you were practicing all the time, and part of it is probably because that's how you were. But so I want you to tell that story. You're on the school bus, and you're determined to show other people in the school how great classical music is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I think that's fair to say, yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 21, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is pianist Jeremy Denk, author of the new memoir \"Every Good Boy Does Fine: A Love Story, In Music Lessons.\" We'll be back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And in short, it's a wonder that I'm still alive, you know? After that, the Plog brothers followed me home every day from the bus, threatening to beat me up. So I paid a heavy price for that moment of"}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with pianist Jeremy Denk, who is an award-winning pianist, has played with the top orchestras and performers around the world. And he's also a great writer. And he's been published in The New Yorker. He has a blog. And now he has a new memoir, which is called \"Every Good Boy Does Fine: A Love Story, In Music Lessons.\" And it's from his childhood through the age of around 26, when he was studying piano. You write about something called key speed. And you say it's the most important and infuriatingly subtle variable of piano playing. I don't know what it is. What is it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And in short, it's a wonder that I'm still alive, you know? After that, the Plog brothers followed me home every day from the bus, threatening to beat me up. So I paid a heavy price for that moment of"}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 23, "text": "At Oberlin, you became part of a contemporary music ensemble. What did you love and what did you find off-putting about the contemporary music you were playing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "awkward and hard to move and mechanical, in many ways. And yet, it responds if you caress it a certain way or just a little bit more urgently, or you play as if you're - as if the key was a hot potato"}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 24, "text": "So I'm going to ask you an honest question. I want to play a Stockhausen piece that you recorded, the \"Klavierstucke.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "possibly write. So my opinions changed very rapidly, you know? I didn't have very fixed core principles."}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 25, "text": "\"Klavierstucke.\" OK. And I'm not a big Stockhausen fan. There's a kind of - you know, he basically creates atonal music. Would you describe what atonal music is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Klavierstucke.\""}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 26, "text": "Yeah. So I want to play this Stockhausen piece that you recorded. And there isn't, like, an obvious melody or harmony or rhythm. I mean, there, of course, is rhythm. But it's not the kind of rhythm that we think of as rhythm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah. It's music without a single - a lot of music is organized around a home key, like G major or D major or whatever, that's why the symphony in D major. And all the chords are heard in relati"}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 27, "text": "Yeah. Everything has kind of been taken apart and not put back together again. So let's hear a little bit of this. But first, tell us what's happening in this, how you look at - how you approach it as a pianist.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's not a recurring. Yeah."}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 28, "text": "Well, let's hear it. So this is Jeremy Denk playing Stockhausen.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". At least I came to feel that way. Yeah."}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 29, "text": "That was my guest, pianist Jeremy Denk, playing a piece by Stockhausen. It's on his album of music, \"c.1300-c.2000.\" So is there more joy in playing this kind of music than in listening to it, do you think? And I know I'm probably alienating some people...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". At least I came to feel that way. Yeah."}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 30, "text": "...In stating my opinion about this. But at some point, music becomes more, to me, like a philosophy or an intellectual puzzle than something that gives me a lot of satisfaction as a listener.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". At least I came to feel that way. Yeah."}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 31, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'll admit that I don't put that piece on, you know, when I'm going to bed or something to relax."}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 32, "text": "Let's hear some of that Philip Glass etude that you recorded. So here's Jeremy Denk again at the piano - music by Philip Glass.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I - there's a long and great history even in, you know, medieval times, renaissance music of creating sort of puzzle pieces, you know, that are kind of - you're right - intellectual or philo"}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 33, "text": "So that was Philip Glass' \"Etude No. 2\" performed by my guest, Jeremy Denk. And up - that's a very kind of romantic rendering of Philip Glass.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I - there's a long and great history even in, you know, medieval times, renaissance music of creating sort of puzzle pieces, you know, that are kind of - you're right - intellectual or philo"}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 34, "text": "Well, let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is the acclaimed pianist Jeremy Denk, who's written a new memoir called \"Every Good Boy Does Fine: A Love Story, In Music Lessons.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Sometimes, you know? I try my best to be a vessel for the composer. But, you know, we can't help putting a little bit of ourselves in there. I think there is a lot of incredible feeling in the chor"}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 35, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with pianist Jeremy Denk. He's written a new memoir called \"Every Good Boy Does Fine: A Love Story, In Music Lessons.\" So I want to I want to get in one more contemporary - let's say, relatively modern", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Sometimes, you know? I try my best to be a vessel for the composer. But, you know, we can't help putting a little bit of ourselves in there. I think there is a lot of incredible feeling in the chor"}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 36, "text": "- piece. And this is a Stravinsky piece. And it's called \"Piano-Rag-Music.\" And it's basically his deconstruction of a piano rag. And it's - I think it's really enjoyable and kind of fun. Why don't you talk about it from your perspective as the performer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Sometimes, you know? I try my best to be a vessel for the composer. But, you know, we can't help putting a little bit of ourselves in there. I think there is a lot of incredible feeling in the chor"}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 37, "text": "OK. So let's hear some of Jeremy Denk playing Stravinsky's \"Piano-Rag-Music.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "and then purees them and then reassembles them, like Picasso would do, you know, with a guitar, and so that you can rehear these really familiar ideas in a new, discombobulating, fresh, bizarre, funny"}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 38, "text": "That was Jeremy Denk at the piano. My guest has also written a new memoir, \"Every Good Boy Does Fine: A Love Story In Music Lessons.\" You call Beethoven your nemesis when you were", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "and then purees them and then reassembles them, like Picasso would do, you know, with a guitar, and so that you can rehear these really familiar ideas in a new, discombobulating, fresh, bizarre, funny"}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 39, "text": "- when you were learning to play. Why was he your nemesis?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "and then purees them and then reassembles them, like Picasso would do, you know, with a guitar, and so that you can rehear these really familiar ideas in a new, discombobulating, fresh, bizarre, funny"}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 40, "text": "Well, you have a Beethoven piece, the \"Piano Sonata No. 32 In C Minor\" on your album of 700 years of music. How would you rate that? And it's a beautiful piece. It's a very percussive and emotional piece. But how would you rate it in terms of Beethoven being your nemesis? Is this a nemesis kind of piece, or is this a relatively easy one for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "trying to climb it without any crampons or whatever. So, you know, I kept bashing my head against the wall of all the impossible things in that piece, and my mom decided that, you know, Beethoven was "}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 41, "text": "What do you love about this \"Piano Sonata In C Minor\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 42, "text": "Well, let's hear it. This is Jeremy Denk at the piano playing Beethoven's \"Piano Sonata No. 32 In C Minor.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Partly also that - it says it's in C minor, but it's really in C minor, then it becomes a C major for the second two-thirds of itself. And, you know, it's like a piece where you have a problem in the "}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 43, "text": "That was Jeremy Denk at the piano from his album \"c.1300-c.2000\" - 700 years of music", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Partly also that - it says it's in C minor, but it's really in C minor, then it becomes a C major for the second two-thirds of itself. And, you know, it's like a piece where you have a problem in the "}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 44, "text": ". He has a new memoir called \"Every Good Boy Does Fine: A Love Story In Music Lessons.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Partly also that - it says it's in C minor, but it's really in C minor, then it becomes a C major for the second two-thirds of itself. And, you know, it's like a piece where you have a problem in the "}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 45, "text": "Is he the teacher who told you to think about the saddest moment in your life for one piece?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I think I needed different kinds of teachers at different points in my life. I think, you know, one of the reason that I had such difficulty - one of the reasons I had such difficulty with, "}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 46, "text": "It sounds like the kind of advice you'd give an actor.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. We were playing a Beethoven cello sonata, some movement, and we weren't able to play it together. And he said to me, Jeremy, think of the saddest thing that you've ever felt in your life"}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 47, "text": "How did he violate it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was very much an actor - yeah, like, a method actor kind of teacher, and I think still is. You know, he's a very active teacher to this day. And he was way too much in a way. He kind of violated my"}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 48, "text": "Well, it's really been a pleasure to talk with you. And I thank you very much for coming back to our show and for your music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he'd get up in your face, you know, just, like, scream in your face more, or he would just, like, give you this demonic expression when you were trying to play a really difficult passage. And th"}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 49, "text": "We should end with some Mozart. You have an album of Mozart. That's your most recent album. Do you want to just choose a passage that you especially love?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry, what a pleasure."}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 50, "text": "Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I'd choose the sort of middle of the last movement of 503. This is one of the - for me, one of the most beautiful passages that Mozart ever wrote, the middle of the rondo of his concerto in C "}
{"id": "1087834268", "date": "2022-03-21", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 51, "text": "That's Jeremy Denk at the piano from his album \"c.1300-c.2000.\" Jeremy Denk's new memoir is called \"Every Good Boy Does Fine.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be Frank Bruni, an opinion columnist for The New York Times, where he's also been a White House correspondent and chief restaurant critic. His new memoir is about losing his vision in one eye as a result of a rare kind of stroke. His previous memoir was about his passion for food and his struggle with his weight. I hope you'll join us. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I'd choose the sort of middle of the last movement of 503. This is one of the - for me, one of the most beautiful passages that Mozart ever wrote, the middle of the rondo of his concerto in C "}
{"id": "1088596837", "date": "2022-03-25", "guest": "Madeleine Albright", "title": "Remembering Madeleine Albright, the first woman to serve as secretary of state", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today we remember Madeleine Albright, who became the first woman to serve as secretary of state. She died of cancer Wednesday at the age of 84. She was appointed secretary of state by President Clinton in 1997 in his second term. In his first term, she became the ambassador to the U.N. Among the things she's remembered for is advocating the expansion of NATO into the former Soviet bloc countries of Eastern Europe. Some of the other issues and crises she contended with during the Clinton years include the war in the Balkans, the genocide in Rwanda, the terrorist bombings of U.S. embassies in Africa, the suspension of weapons inspections in Iraq, Middle East peace talks and the start of the second intifada and the impeachment trial of President Clinton. A little later, we'll hear the interview I recorded with her in 2018 during the Trump presidency after the publication of her book, \"Fascism,\" in which she wrote about the growing threat of fascism in Eastern Europe and sounded the alarm about the growing threat of authoritarianism in the U.S. We'll start with our 2003 interview recorded after the publication of her memoir, \"Madam Secretary.\" She was born in Czechoslovakia, where her father was a diplomat. During World War II, the family fled to England just before Germany invaded Czechoslovakia. After the war, they returned to their country only to flee again, this time in 1948, as the Communists were taking over. We started the interview by talking about being the first woman to serve as secretary of state.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1088596837", "date": "2022-03-25", "guest": "Madeleine Albright", "title": "Remembering Madeleine Albright, the first woman to serve as secretary of state", "question_index": 1, "text": "You write in your memoir, (reading) I am often asked whether I was condescended to by men as I traveled around the world to Arab countries and other places with highly traditional cultures. I replied, no, because when I arrived somewhere, it was in a large plane with the US of A emblazoned on the side. Foreign officials respect that. I had more problems with some of the men in my own government. What are some of the problems you had with some of the men in your own government?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1088596837", "date": "2022-03-25", "guest": "Madeleine Albright", "title": "Remembering Madeleine Albright, the first woman to serve as secretary of state", "question_index": 2, "text": "Tell me if you feel like you ever had to deal with this in your career as somebody who is very high-powered and having to fly around the world talking with heads of state. A lot of women, particularly women who are, like, in their 40s and over feel like they were brought up to be - socialized to be liked, to please and, you know, to accommodate. And sure, there's a certain amount of pleasing an accommodation that's a part of diplomacy, but there's also the necessity of, you know, of being tough, of saying no, of holding your ground no matter what. Do you feel like in your career you ever had to overcome that impulse to accommodate, to be nice, to be liked?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that, especially when I started at the United Nations - and I was a member of what is called - the so-called principals committee, which is a small group that includes the national secur"}
{"id": "1088596837", "date": "2022-03-25", "guest": "Madeleine Albright", "title": "Remembering Madeleine Albright, the first woman to serve as secretary of state", "question_index": 3, "text": "What is it like to fly to a country like Saudi Arabia to practice diplomacy knowing that in that country women have to be shrouded? Women can't drive. And granted, they understand you're a woman from a different culture. But you're still a woman.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my goodness. Yes. I can't tell you how many times. First of all, I do think that most women want to be liked. And they don't want to have face-to-face personal arguments. It was even larger in my "}
{"id": "1088596837", "date": "2022-03-25", "guest": "Madeleine Albright", "title": "Remembering Madeleine Albright, the first woman to serve as secretary of state", "question_index": 4, "text": "Your first position in the Clinton administration was as U.N. ambassador. Your father was a diplomat. Your father had served as U.N. ambassador from Czechoslovakia. How do you think that, you know, being from Czechoslovakia influenced your feelings about Bosnia and Kosovo and your stand that there should be military intervention?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first of all, you really do think about the fact that you're going into this kind of a country where sisters have a very different lifestyle. And I find it appalling. Nevertheless, I had to carr"}
{"id": "1088596837", "date": "2022-03-25", "guest": "Madeleine Albright", "title": "Remembering Madeleine Albright, the first woman to serve as secretary of state", "question_index": 5, "text": "Shortly after becoming secretary of state, The Washington Post reporter Michael Dobbs came to you with information that your family was actually Jewish, not Catholic, and that three of your grandparents were victims of the Holocaust as well as at least one of your cousins. You write about this a little bit in your book and about how people couldn't believe you didn't know and that it made it - they made it seem like you had covered it up. You say, I was made to feel as if I were a liar and that - my father was portrayed as a heartless fraud. You never knew about it till Michael Dobbs told you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first of all, my - everybody has their baggage. And mine clearly was Munich, an agreement made in September 1938 by the so-called Western powers, excluding the United States, to give away a piec"}
{"id": "1088596837", "date": "2022-03-25", "guest": "Madeleine Albright", "title": "Remembering Madeleine Albright, the first woman to serve as secretary of state", "question_index": 6, "text": "What do you think their motivation was? Not only in - I mean, I guess the motivation for changing their religion is fairly obvious, to survive during the Nazi era. But what do you think their motivation was to never tell you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I - no, I didn't. I mean, what happened was that - I think I explained in the first part of the book that my parents talked a great deal about their lives in pre-World War II Czechoslovakia and "}
{"id": "1088596837", "date": "2022-03-25", "guest": "Madeleine Albright", "title": "Remembering Madeleine Albright, the first woman to serve as secretary of state", "question_index": 7, "text": "If you don't mind my asking, I'm wondering if you practice any religion now. Now, you grew up Roman Catholic. At your husband's request, when you got married, you joined the Episcopal Church and then found out later in life that your family is really of Jewish descent. So where are you now", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, again, it's hard to try to figure out motivation, but I think the following thing, again - that you have to put yourself back into the period. They had gone through having to leave their country"}
{"id": "1088596837", "date": "2022-03-25", "guest": "Madeleine Albright", "title": "Remembering Madeleine Albright, the first woman to serve as secretary of state", "question_index": 8, "text": "in terms of faith?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, again, it's hard to try to figure out motivation, but I think the following thing, again - that you have to put yourself back into the period. They had gone through having to leave their country"}
{"id": "1088596837", "date": "2022-03-25", "guest": "Madeleine Albright", "title": "Remembering Madeleine Albright, the first woman to serve as secretary of state", "question_index": 9, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded in 2003 with former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright. She died Wednesday at the age of 84. A little later, we'll hear the interview we recorded in 2018 during the Trump presidency after the publication of her book, \"Fascism,\" in which she warned about the growing authoritarianism in parts of Eastern Europe and sounded the alarm about the threat of authoritarianism in the U.S. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I have written actually that it's confusing. I mean, it's a little hard to be 66 years old and be unclear about something like this. I was raised a Christian, and I am a - I don't see myself not"}
{"id": "1088596837", "date": "2022-03-25", "guest": "Madeleine Albright", "title": "Remembering Madeleine Albright, the first woman to serve as secretary of state", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the 2003 interview I recorded with Madeleine Albright, the first woman to serve as secretary of state. President Clinton appointed her in his second term after she served in his first term as U.N. ambassador.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I have written actually that it's confusing. I mean, it's a little hard to be 66 years old and be unclear about something like this. I was raised a Christian, and I am a - I don't see myself not"}
{"id": "1088596837", "date": "2022-03-25", "guest": "Madeleine Albright", "title": "Remembering Madeleine Albright, the first woman to serve as secretary of state", "question_index": 11, "text": "Now, you married Joe Albright, who was from a very wealthy family, the family that owned the newspaper Newsday. Did you suddenly find yourself in a much more privileged world than the world you had traveled in? I know your father had been a diplomat, probably knew a lot of very important and powerful people. But still, was this a different world for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I have written actually that it's confusing. I mean, it's a little hard to be 66 years old and be unclear about something like this. I was raised a Christian, and I am a - I don't see myself not"}
{"id": "1088596837", "date": "2022-03-25", "guest": "Madeleine Albright", "title": "Remembering Madeleine Albright, the first woman to serve as secretary of state", "question_index": 12, "text": "You write in your book that your husband divorced you in 1983. He told you that he'd fallen in love with a woman who was a reporter, who was considerably younger and beautiful. And you say that you hope that he was just being noble and brave because he was really diagnosed with a brain tumor", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was a completely different world. But the truth is that when my father had been ambassador, you know, we lived in an embassy and had a chauffeur and a maid and a cook and a butler and various"}
{"id": "1088596837", "date": "2022-03-25", "guest": "Madeleine Albright", "title": "Remembering Madeleine Albright, the first woman to serve as secretary of state", "question_index": 13, "text": "and was just trying to spare his family the pain of watching him suffer. Well, unfortunately or fortunately, whatever, that wasn't the case", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was a completely different world. But the truth is that when my father had been ambassador, you know, we lived in an embassy and had a chauffeur and a maid and a cook and a butler and various"}
{"id": "1088596837", "date": "2022-03-25", "guest": "Madeleine Albright", "title": "Remembering Madeleine Albright, the first woman to serve as secretary of state", "question_index": 14, "text": ", and he was just leaving you for another woman. You say that when he did leave you, it left you with no confidence in your looks. Did you get over that? And as a woman who spent her life in the limelight, in front of cameras, but not in a beauty pageant, in diplomatic positions, in secretary of state - you know, in the position of secretary of state, did looks matter to you? How important was that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was a completely different world. But the truth is that when my father had been ambassador, you know, we lived in an embassy and had a chauffeur and a maid and a cook and a butler and various"}
{"id": "1088596837", "date": "2022-03-25", "guest": "Madeleine Albright", "title": "Remembering Madeleine Albright, the first woman to serve as secretary of state", "question_index": 15, "text": "It matters why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, all I have to do is look in the mirror to know I'm no raving beauty, but it does help if you feel good about yourself. And so I think that if you go around moping or, you know, you dec"}
{"id": "1088596837", "date": "2022-03-25", "guest": "Madeleine Albright", "title": "Remembering Madeleine Albright, the first woman to serve as secretary of state", "question_index": 16, "text": "My interview with Madeleine Albright was recorded in 2003. She died Wednesday at the age of 84. After a break, we'll hear the interview we recorded in 2018 during the Trump presidency, after the publication of her book, \"Fascism,\" in which she warned about the growing threat of authoritarianism in parts of Eastern Europe and the threat to democracy in the U.S. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because I think not so much, I mean, if you're beautiful or not, but if you look confident and you look put together, I think it does play a role in how you present your case. And I tell one story in "}
{"id": "1088596837", "date": "2022-03-25", "guest": "Madeleine Albright", "title": "Remembering Madeleine Albright, the first woman to serve as secretary of state", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today we're remembering Madeleine Albright, who became America's first woman to serve as secretary of state. She was appointed by President Clinton during his second term and served as U.S. ambassador during his first term. Albright died of cancer Wednesday. She was 84. The second interview we recorded was in 2018 during the Trump presidency. She had just published her bestselling book, \"Fascism,\" in which she wrote (reading) we should be awake to the assault on democratic values that has gathered strength in many countries abroad and is dividing America at home. The book examined how fascism took hold in Hitler's Germany and Mussolini's Italy. Then she warned about how authoritarianism was taking hold again in several Eastern European countries and was already well in place in Russia and North Korea. One chapter was devoted to Trump and the alarming threat of authoritarianism in the U.S.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because I think not so much, I mean, if you're beautiful or not, but if you look confident and you look put together, I think it does play a role in how you present your case. And I tell one story in "}
{"id": "1088596837", "date": "2022-03-25", "guest": "Madeleine Albright", "title": "Remembering Madeleine Albright, the first woman to serve as secretary of state", "question_index": 18, "text": "Madeleine Albright, welcome to FRESH AIR. This book is a very personal one in a lot of ways because you fled fascism twice. Your family is from Czechoslovakia, where you were born. Your father was a diplomat. The family fled fascism when you were a child, first, from Hitler. You moved to England. And then after World War II, you returned to Czechoslovakia but fled again when the Communists were taking over and came to America. What is the warning you want to send to Americans about what is happening here?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because I think not so much, I mean, if you're beautiful or not, but if you look confident and you look put together, I think it does play a role in how you present your case. And I tell one story in "}
{"id": "1088596837", "date": "2022-03-25", "guest": "Madeleine Albright", "title": "Remembering Madeleine Albright, the first woman to serve as secretary of state", "question_index": 19, "text": "One step at a time within the system.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first of all, I'm delighted to be with you. But let me say, the reason that I wrote the book and the warning is, as you've pointed out, it's something that I saw or have certainly heard about fr"}
{"id": "1088596837", "date": "2022-03-25", "guest": "Madeleine Albright", "title": "Remembering Madeleine Albright, the first woman to serve as secretary of state", "question_index": 20, "text": "And with your father, for instance - he was a diplomat. He was close to the president of Czechoslovakia. And so when your father sensed that the Communists were taking over, the president of Czechoslovakia was saying, no, it's going to be fine. Don't worry about it. And your father left in spite of those reassurances. You know, the whole family left in spite of those reassurances. And you were lucky that you did. You write your father would have been put in prison had the family stayed in Czechoslovakia - so another example of how when fascism or authoritarianism or Communism is coming, not everybody sees it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Within the system, and partially because it is a way of undermining democracy and the democratic institutions that are the basis of democracy or criticizing the press or thinking that there are those "}
{"id": "1088596837", "date": "2022-03-25", "guest": "Madeleine Albright", "title": "Remembering Madeleine Albright, the first woman to serve as secretary of state", "question_index": 21, "text": "Your book starts with a quote from Primo Levi. Every age has its own fascism. What are you trying to say by using that quote? Are you saying, don't expect fascism to look like it - exactly like it did with Hitler or Mussolini or Stalin?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that's absolutely true, because part of it, both with the fascism and with the Communism - there really was not enough pushback from the people and, to some extent, the authorities there at the ti"}
{"id": "1088596837", "date": "2022-03-25", "guest": "Madeleine Albright", "title": "Remembering Madeleine Albright, the first woman to serve as secretary of state", "question_index": 22, "text": "Let's talk about what's happening in the United States. I want to read a passage that you write in your book, \"Fascism: A Warning,\" a passage about President Trump. You write, (reading) we've never had a president, at least in the modern era, whose statements and actions are so at odds with democratic ideals. Trump has spoken harshly about the institutions and principles that make up the foundation of open government. In the process, he has systematically degraded political discourse in the U.S., shown an astonishing disregard for facts, libeled his predecessor, threatened to lock up political rivals, bullied members of his own administration, referred to mainstream journalists as enemies of the American people, spread falsehoods about the integrity of the U.S. electoral process, touted mindlessly nationalistic economic and trade policies and nurtured a paranoid bigotry toward the followers of one of the world's foremost religions. Do you think that President Trump has the instincts of an authoritarian leader?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's exactly - because one of the reasons that I wrote the book was to show the different ways that fascism has penetrated a lot of our societies now. And each one is a little bit different. A"}
{"id": "1088596837", "date": "2022-03-25", "guest": "Madeleine Albright", "title": "Remembering Madeleine Albright, the first woman to serve as secretary of state", "question_index": 23, "text": "President Trump, when he was campaigning, when he talked about NATO, he'd talk about how America was, like, spending too much and European countries are spending too little when it came to dues. And he seemed to see NATO as being about, like, some kind of business arrangement where America was being played. We were being taken advantage of because we were paying more. You were secretary of state when NATO opened its doors to Eastern European countries, in Poland, the Czech Republic, Hungary. They entered NATO in 1999 when you were secretary of state. So NATO was very important during your tenure in in that position. I mean, the shape of NATO changed. And now we've seen Brexit, and we've seen President Trump having this kind of changeable, ambivalent position about NATO. How does that feel personally? Because you were so - like, NATO was such an important part of your professional life as secretary of state.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that he is the most antidemocratic president that we have had in modern history and that his instincts are really in that direction. And I think that that's what's worrisome. And the passage t"}
{"id": "1088596837", "date": "2022-03-25", "guest": "Madeleine Albright", "title": "Remembering Madeleine Albright, the first woman to serve as secretary of state", "question_index": 24, "text": "We're listening to the 2018 interview I recorded with former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright. She died Wednesday at the age of 84. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I see it as the most unbelievable step backwards because I do believe that the United States is stronger when we have friends and allies to deal with the various issues, whether they are in-area"}
{"id": "1088596837", "date": "2022-03-25", "guest": "Madeleine Albright", "title": "Remembering Madeleine Albright, the first woman to serve as secretary of state", "question_index": 25, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're remembering Madeleine Albright, the first woman to serve as secretary of state. She died Wednesday at age 84. Let's get back to the interview we recorded in 2018 after the publication of her book, \"Fascism,\" in which she warned about authoritarianism in several Eastern European countries and sounded the alarm about the assault on American democracy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I see it as the most unbelievable step backwards because I do believe that the United States is stronger when we have friends and allies to deal with the various issues, whether they are in-area"}
{"id": "1088596837", "date": "2022-03-25", "guest": "Madeleine Albright", "title": "Remembering Madeleine Albright, the first woman to serve as secretary of state", "question_index": 26, "text": "Let's talk about Russia. We have evidence now that Russia interfered in the presidential election. We don't know what their plans are for the midterms. If you were secretary of state, would you see a role for yourself now in dealing with future Russian interference in our democracy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I see it as the most unbelievable step backwards because I do believe that the United States is stronger when we have friends and allies to deal with the various issues, whether they are in-area"}
{"id": "1088596837", "date": "2022-03-25", "guest": "Madeleine Albright", "title": "Remembering Madeleine Albright, the first woman to serve as secretary of state", "question_index": 27, "text": "You met with Vladimir Putin when you were secretary of state. What was his position at the time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, from everything that I have read, I think that it is a dereliction of duty not to see what the Russians have been doing and that this really requires a whole of government approach to it, where "}
{"id": "1088596837", "date": "2022-03-25", "guest": "Madeleine Albright", "title": "Remembering Madeleine Albright, the first woman to serve as secretary of state", "question_index": 28, "text": "You wrote down your impressions of him after your first meeting. And you wrote, Putin is small and pale, so cold as to be almost reptilian. Putin is embarrassed by what happened to his country and determined to restore its greatness. That kind of holds up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was interesting. The first time I met him was when he was still kind of acting president in an APEC meeting that took place in New Zealand. And he was in a a stage of his life where he seemed"}
{"id": "1088596837", "date": "2022-03-25", "guest": "Madeleine Albright", "title": "Remembering Madeleine Albright, the first woman to serve as secretary of state", "question_index": 29, "text": "So an interesting anecdote in your book - and this takes place in 2003, when you were speaking in Turkey. And, you know, as we've been saying, like, identity is such a big issue in this era of, like, nationalism and anti-immigration feelings. So you're in Turkey. You're giving a speech. And then during the Q&A, you're asked your opinion of whether women should wear headscarves. And there's women with headscarves in the audience and women without them. And you say, well, that's easy; it should be a woman's personal choice. And you say that everybody in the room hated you after that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it does. And part of it, I have to say, is that in '91, when I - before I went into the government, I did this survey of all of Europe after the end of the Cold War. And we did a lot of question"}
{"id": "1088596837", "date": "2022-03-25", "guest": "Madeleine Albright", "title": "Remembering Madeleine Albright, the first woman to serve as secretary of state", "question_index": 30, "text": "That was, like, an incredibly unpopular response. What's the moral of that story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it does. And part of it, I have to say, is that in '91, when I - before I went into the government, I did this survey of all of Europe after the end of the Cold War. And we did a lot of question"}
{"id": "1088596837", "date": "2022-03-25", "guest": "Madeleine Albright", "title": "Remembering Madeleine Albright, the first woman to serve as secretary of state", "question_index": 31, "text": "Well, Madeleine Albright, it's been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think the moral is that we cannot think that everybody wants to be like American women. I have - again, to go back on this survey that I did in the '90s, a lot of women that had lived under co"}
{"id": "1088596837", "date": "2022-03-25", "guest": "Madeleine Albright", "title": "Remembering Madeleine Albright, the first woman to serve as secretary of state", "question_index": 32, "text": "My interview with former Secretary of State Madeleine Albright was recorded in 2018 after the publication of her book, \"Fascism.\" She died Wednesday at the age of 84. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1090802924", "date": "2022-04-04", "guest": "Marin Alsop", "title": "Conductor Marin Alsop talks about the joys and challenges of leading an orchestra", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Here's some of the things that were said about my guest, Marin Alsop, early in her career, when she fought to be accepted as a conductor. These are quotes from fellow conductors who found it too much of a stretch to take a female conductor seriously. Here goes. \"A sweet girl on the podium can make one's thoughts drift towards something else.\" \"For me, seeing a woman at the podium - it's not my cup of tea.\" This quote gets right to the point. \"I don't really like women conductors.\" Alsop became the first woman to lead a major American orchestra in 2007, when she became the music director of the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra, a position she held for 14 years. There were other firsts, including first woman to be the principal conductor of the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra in England and the Sao Paulo State Symphony Orchestra in Brazil, and the first and only conductor to receive a MacArthur Fellowship, the so-called Genius Award. Her mentor was Leonard Bernstein. And, like Bernstein, her passion for music is wide-ranging from the standard repertoire to symphonic jazz compositions, film scores and contemporary works. She's currently the principal conductor of the ORF Vienna Radio Symphony Orchestra, making her the first woman to ever lead a Viennese orchestra. She's the subject of the new documentary, \"The Conductor.\" It's streaming on the PBS website and on several other streaming platforms. Marin Alsop, welcome back to FRESH AIR. It's been too long. Congratulations on this new documentary. It's terrific.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1090802924", "date": "2022-04-04", "guest": "Marin Alsop", "title": "Conductor Marin Alsop talks about the joys and challenges of leading an orchestra", "question_index": 1, "text": "I want to start on a very sober note. And I should mention that we're recording this on March 22. And we're running it later than that. And you and I don't know what will have happened in Ukraine in the interim. But I want to start with a performance that you conducted of the Ukrainian anthem with the Orchestre de Paris in, I believe, early March. What would you say about this piece musically?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thanks so much."}
{"id": "1090802924", "date": "2022-04-04", "guest": "Marin Alsop", "title": "Conductor Marin Alsop talks about the joys and challenges of leading an orchestra", "question_index": 2, "text": "So here's my guest, Marin Alsop, conducting the Orchestre de Paris in the Ukrainian national anthem.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's - I think anthems are strange beasts in a way because they're not necessarily reflective of the culture from which they emanate, but they have a certain nobility. And I think this is ra"}
{"id": "1090802924", "date": "2022-04-04", "guest": "Marin Alsop", "title": "Conductor Marin Alsop talks about the joys and challenges of leading an orchestra", "question_index": 3, "text": "That's my guest, Marin Alsop, conducting the Orchestre de Paris in the Ukrainian national anthem. You are the conductor now of the Vienna Radio Symphony Orchestra. And I'm wondering if the members of that orchestra are very concerned about the possibility of a wider war in Europe.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's - I think anthems are strange beasts in a way because they're not necessarily reflective of the culture from which they emanate, but they have a certain nobility. And I think this is ra"}
{"id": "1090802924", "date": "2022-04-04", "guest": "Marin Alsop", "title": "Conductor Marin Alsop talks about the joys and challenges of leading an orchestra", "question_index": 4, "text": "So with the Vienna Radio Symphony Orchestra, you recorded a piece called \"A Different Soldier's Tale.\" and I think this might fit the moment, too. Can you tell us about this piece? And then we'll hear an excerpt of it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it's a - of huge concern. I was just in Vienna these last two weeks. And, you know, the conflict is close. I mean, the border is just, you know, a hundred kilometers. It's not far at all. And many"}
{"id": "1090802924", "date": "2022-04-04", "guest": "Marin Alsop", "title": "Conductor Marin Alsop talks about the joys and challenges of leading an orchestra", "question_index": 5, "text": "Well, let's hear an excerpt of the movement called \"I Must Survive!\" So this is from \"A Different Soldier's Tale\" by James Lee III with my guest, Marin Alsop, conducting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, absolutely. Well, this is from a CD of all music by James Lee III. James is a Black composer living currently in the Baltimore area and D.C. area. And, you know, this is a piece that was inspired"}
{"id": "1090802924", "date": "2022-04-04", "guest": "Marin Alsop", "title": "Conductor Marin Alsop talks about the joys and challenges of leading an orchestra", "question_index": 6, "text": "That was my guest, Marin Alsop, conducting the Vienna Radio Symphony Orchestra in James Lee III's \"A Different Soldier's Tale,\" and the movement we heard was called \"I Must Survive!\" One of the things I associate you with is championing the work of contemporary composers, and what we just heard is an example of that. And I'm wondering if that is part of how you see your place in the world as this groundbreaking woman conductor. Are you - do you feel like you're especially attuned to other people who are being marginalized, who you want to bring to a bigger audience and take them out of the margins?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, absolutely. Well, this is from a CD of all music by James Lee III. James is a Black composer living currently in the Baltimore area and D.C. area. And, you know, this is a piece that was inspired"}
{"id": "1090802924", "date": "2022-04-04", "guest": "Marin Alsop", "title": "Conductor Marin Alsop talks about the joys and challenges of leading an orchestra", "question_index": 7, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is conductor Marin Alsop. And there's a new documentary about her called \"The Conductor,\" and you can see it streaming on the PBS website and also on other streaming sites. We'll be right back after this short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, you know, I don't really think about it in those terms, but now that you're mentioning it, I suppose that is part of my sense of purpose. I love working with living composers because it brings me "}
{"id": "1090802924", "date": "2022-04-04", "guest": "Marin Alsop", "title": "Conductor Marin Alsop talks about the joys and challenges of leading an orchestra", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with conductor Marin Alsop. There's a new documentary about her called \"The Conductor,\" which is streaming now on the PBS website and on other streaming platforms as well. She is now the chief conductor of the Vienna Radio Symphony Orchestra, the former conductor of the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra and the Sao Paulo Orchestra. And she's conducted orchestras on a guest basis around the world. You're still the only woman who has been the conductor of a major American orchestra. Women have made breakthroughs in so many different professions over the years. Why has it been so slow for conductors?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, you know, I don't really think about it in those terms, but now that you're mentioning it, I suppose that is part of my sense of purpose. I love working with living composers because it brings me "}
{"id": "1090802924", "date": "2022-04-04", "guest": "Marin Alsop", "title": "Conductor Marin Alsop talks about the joys and challenges of leading an orchestra", "question_index": 9, "text": "In the documentary, there are scenes of you mentoring young conductors and, you know, teaching them how to do it. And in of those, when you're mentoring a young woman, you're talking about how gestures can be interpreted - gestures at the podium can be interpreted differently whether that same gesture is being done by a man or by a woman. And the example you give is if you're holding the baton with your pinky raised and you're a woman, that will be seen one way. But if you're a man holding the baton and your pinky is raised, that will be seen another. Would you elaborate on that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I have to jump in here because there has been a recent appointment just within the last couple months of my dear friend Nathalie Stutzmann, French conductor, who will now head the Atlanta Sympho"}
{"id": "1090802924", "date": "2022-04-04", "guest": "Marin Alsop", "title": "Conductor Marin Alsop talks about the joys and challenges of leading an orchestra", "question_index": 10, "text": "There is also a moment where you're telling one of the women who you're mentoring, if you want a passage to sound really kind of strong, you can make a fist to show that. Are there certain gestures that women are less accustomed to making that you have to kind of encourage them to make - that it's okay to do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, it's fascinating to think about because everything we do as conductors is about body language. And body language is interpreted differently when it comes from a woman or from a man - the"}
{"id": "1090802924", "date": "2022-04-04", "guest": "Marin Alsop", "title": "Conductor Marin Alsop talks about the joys and challenges of leading an orchestra", "question_index": 11, "text": "So why don't we hear something really rousing? And this is the finale of Brahms' second symphony. And you're conducting the London Philharmonic Orchestra. Can you talk about, if you remember, what you were doing when you were conducting this in terms of, you know, your gestures, your physicality, trying to help evoke this rousing finale?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, that's a great question. I can only speak from, you know, my personal growth and my development. I found that being demanding and getting a big sound from the orchestra, that was my biggest challe"}
{"id": "1090802924", "date": "2022-04-04", "guest": "Marin Alsop", "title": "Conductor Marin Alsop talks about the joys and challenges of leading an orchestra", "question_index": 12, "text": "OK. So let's hear it. (SOUNDBITE OF LONDON PHILHARMONIC ORCHESTRA PERFORMANCE OF BRAHMS' \"SYMPHONY NO. 2 IN D MAJOR, OP 73\")", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure. I mean, first of all, working with this fantastic orchestra and recording all the Brahms symphonies was a dream come true. But this finale is - it's filled with joy and power and possibility"}
{"id": "1090802924", "date": "2022-04-04", "guest": "Marin Alsop", "title": "Conductor Marin Alsop talks about the joys and challenges of leading an orchestra", "question_index": 13, "text": "That was my guest, Marin Alsop, conducting the London Philharmonic Orchestra and the finale of Brahms' second symphony. You know, one of the things you do so well is talk to the audience and explain what's going on in a music piece and what they might listen for. And I used to hear you at the Cabrillo music festival in Santa Cruz, where you were the conductor for, like, 25 years. It was like a two-week long summer festival. And you would always just, like, play excerpts of the piece before actually playing the whole piece and say, here's what's happening here. And I loved the informality of that. And the concerts were in a gym, so the setting wasn't formal.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure. I mean, first of all, working with this fantastic orchestra and recording all the Brahms symphonies was a dream come true. But this finale is - it's filled with joy and power and possibility"}
{"id": "1090802924", "date": "2022-04-04", "guest": "Marin Alsop", "title": "Conductor Marin Alsop talks about the joys and challenges of leading an orchestra", "question_index": 14, "text": "Everybody was just showing up in the clothes they'd ordinarily wear. There was utter informality. And I found that, you know, just making the music, like, so accessible and so much more interesting to hear because you were telling me things to listen for - as somebody who likes that approach, as you do, did you ever find that people confused informality with a lack of authority?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1090802924", "date": "2022-04-04", "guest": "Marin Alsop", "title": "Conductor Marin Alsop talks about the joys and challenges of leading an orchestra", "question_index": 15, "text": "Bravo. (LAUGHTER)", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah. I think that's often a danger that we see that composers who write music that's, quote-unquote, \"accessible\" are often considered, you know, less profound (laughter). And I think speaking "}
{"id": "1090802924", "date": "2022-04-04", "guest": "Marin Alsop", "title": "Conductor Marin Alsop talks about the joys and challenges of leading an orchestra", "question_index": 16, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Marin Alsop. And there's a new documentary about her called \"The Conductor\" that you can see streaming on the PBS website and on several streaming platforms. We'll be right back after a break. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR. (SOUNDBITE OF LEONARD BERNSTEIN, PHILIPPE QUINT, TIMOTHY WALDEN, BOURNEMOUTH SYMPHONY ORCHESTRA AND MARIN ALSOP'S \"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah. I think that's often a danger that we see that composers who write music that's, quote-unquote, \"accessible\" are often considered, you know, less profound (laughter). And I think speaking "}
{"id": "1090802924", "date": "2022-04-04", "guest": "Marin Alsop", "title": "Conductor Marin Alsop talks about the joys and challenges of leading an orchestra", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with conductor Marin Alsop. She was the first woman to conduct a major American orchestra in the U.S. And that was the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra, which she recently left after 25 years. She's now the conductor of the Vienna Radio Symphony Orchestra. And she has been the conductor of the Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra and has conducted orchestras worldwide. She has a very groundbreaking place in classical music. So you wanted to be a conductor ever since you were, what, 7 or 9, was it (laughter)?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "III ERYXIMACHUS\")"}
{"id": "1090802924", "date": "2022-04-04", "guest": "Marin Alsop", "title": "Conductor Marin Alsop talks about the joys and challenges of leading an orchestra", "question_index": 18, "text": "9, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. No, it was 9."}
{"id": "1090802924", "date": "2022-04-04", "guest": "Marin Alsop", "title": "Conductor Marin Alsop talks about the joys and challenges of leading an orchestra", "question_index": 19, "text": "Oh, exactly. And one of the reasons why was because you saw, you know, a Leonard Bernstein Young People's Orchestra (ph), in which he would talk to the audience, which was made up of children and their parents, and describe to them what was happening in the music before he actually played it. But you were told - you know, you kept getting rejected from conducting programs because you were told ever since you were a child that women aren't conductors. So let's start there. When you were a child, did anyone ever explain why women aren't conductors?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was 9. I don't know if that makes much difference. But I was 9. Yeah."}
{"id": "1090802924", "date": "2022-04-04", "guest": "Marin Alsop", "title": "Conductor Marin Alsop talks about the joys and challenges of leading an orchestra", "question_index": 20, "text": "(Laughter).", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I received some conflicting information on this. So after I - my dad took me to see Bernstein conduct. And I was so overwhelmed and enamored and taken aback by him - not just the conducting. I think t"}
{"id": "1090802924", "date": "2022-04-04", "guest": "Marin Alsop", "title": "Conductor Marin Alsop talks about the joys and challenges of leading an orchestra", "question_index": 21, "text": "And your parents were musicians.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, for me, classical music was already a little bit too rule-oriented. But I said to my dad, oh, I want to be the conductor. Look at what a great time this guy is having. And my dad said, absol"}
{"id": "1090802924", "date": "2022-04-04", "guest": "Marin Alsop", "title": "Conductor Marin Alsop talks about the joys and challenges of leading an orchestra", "question_index": 22, "text": "And I don't know if they were yet in this position. But your father became the concertmaster at the New York City Ballet Orchestra. And your mother was a cellist in the orchestra. And she also was a cellist for Radio City Music Hall (laughter). What interesting careers that they each had. But anyways, they were really accomplished musicians. So they really understood the world of classical music and what an offense this was to you. You applied to be in the conducting program at Juilliard several times, and you had studied at Juilliard ever since you were 7. But you kept getting rejected from the conducting program. And once, you were told that you'd never be a conductor and that your muscles had atrophied.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. My parents were both professional classical musicians. Yeah."}
{"id": "1090802924", "date": "2022-04-04", "guest": "Marin Alsop", "title": "Conductor Marin Alsop talks about the joys and challenges of leading an orchestra", "question_index": 23, "text": "What do you think they meant - the - whoever said this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think I was 21 or 22."}
{"id": "1090802924", "date": "2022-04-04", "guest": "Marin Alsop", "title": "Conductor Marin Alsop talks about the joys and challenges of leading an orchestra", "question_index": 24, "text": "Oh, can you paraphrase some of that for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I think I have to give some background to this because, you know, I really had no experience as a conductor. So I think they were reacting partly to my naivete, my lack of skills yet -"}
{"id": "1090802924", "date": "2022-04-04", "guest": "Marin Alsop", "title": "Conductor Marin Alsop talks about the joys and challenges of leading an orchestra", "question_index": 25, "text": "Let's take another break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is conductor Marin Alsop. There's a new documentary about her called \"The Conductor\" that's streaming on the PBS platform and also on several other streaming platforms. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR. (SOUNDBITE OF MARIN ALSOP AND BALTIMORE SYMPHONY ORCHESTRA PERFORMANCE OF BELA BARTOK'S \"CONCERTO FOR ORCHESTRA, BB 123: III.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it really says that, you know, we're sorry to inform you that our committee was unable to consider your application, and we're refunding your $35. And, you know, we wish you good luck (laughter) -"}
{"id": "1090802924", "date": "2022-04-04", "guest": "Marin Alsop", "title": "Conductor Marin Alsop talks about the joys and challenges of leading an orchestra", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with conductor Marin Alsop. She's currently the conductor of the Vienna Radio Symphony Orchestra. She became the first woman to be the music director of a major American orchestra when she became the music director and conductor of the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra, where she stayed for 14 years. It was very difficult for you when you became the conductor of the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra, the conductor and music director. I think you thought you'd gotten the job, but then there was - there were protests. In the documentary about you, it's described as a fabricated letter of complaint by a handful of musicians in the orchestra. What was the story behind that letter?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "ANDANTE NON TROPPO\")"}
{"id": "1090802924", "date": "2022-04-04", "guest": "Marin Alsop", "title": "Conductor Marin Alsop talks about the joys and challenges of leading an orchestra", "question_index": 27, "text": "What did you say to them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I don't really know the story behind the letter. And I actually never read the letter. And the first time I was seeing it was in the documentary, believe it or not, because I was so tr"}
{"id": "1090802924", "date": "2022-04-04", "guest": "Marin Alsop", "title": "Conductor Marin Alsop talks about the joys and challenges of leading an orchestra", "question_index": 28, "text": "They hadn't recorded in 10 years when you got there, but after you got there, there were Baltimore Symphony Orchestra recordings. You also created several outreach programs. One of them was called OrchKids, as in Orchestra of Kids, and this was in West Baltimore where kids were given instruments, taught how to play them and played in their orchestras. Why was it important to you to have orchestra outreach programs to various parts of the community that wouldn't typically show up at an orchestra concert?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's - it was a very passionate talk. And I did say to them that I didn't know if I would ever get over this - what had happened. And that was heartfelt. And I don't think I ever have gotten"}
{"id": "1090802924", "date": "2022-04-04", "guest": "Marin Alsop", "title": "Conductor Marin Alsop talks about the joys and challenges of leading an orchestra", "question_index": 29, "text": "Oh, so it's still in existence?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when I moved to Baltimore and started really seeing the place of the orchestra in the community, I realized that in Baltimore, even more so than in other cities, the makeup of the orchestra was "}
{"id": "1090802924", "date": "2022-04-04", "guest": "Marin Alsop", "title": "Conductor Marin Alsop talks about the joys and challenges of leading an orchestra", "question_index": 30, "text": "As you were leaving the orchestra, you said on NPR that if you had it to do over again, you wouldn't have tried so hard to move the orchestra out of the ivory tower. And sometimes, you have to say, OK, this is not where people want to go. Why did you have second thoughts about having tried to do certain aspects of community outreach with the orchestra?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, for sure. And many of the kids from that very first class, believe it or not, graduated high school and have gone on to study music education, music management, music performance. Believe it"}
{"id": "1090802924", "date": "2022-04-04", "guest": "Marin Alsop", "title": "Conductor Marin Alsop talks about the joys and challenges of leading an orchestra", "question_index": 31, "text": "Let's take another break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is conductor Marin Alsop, and there's a new documentary about her called \"The Conductor.\" And you can see it streaming on the PBS website and also on other streaming sites. We'll be right back after this short break. This is FRESH AIR. (SOUNDBITE OF SAO PAOLO SYMPHONY ORCHESTRA PERFORMANCE OF BERNSTEIN'S \"ANNIVERSARIES, FANCY FREE SUITE, OVERTURE TO CANDIDE AND OVERTURE TO WONDERFUL TOWN\")", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. I mean, I think I was really trying to be circumspect about who I am. This is more about who I am, not about them. And sometimes, I think I so want to be helpful, and I so want to move p"}
{"id": "1090802924", "date": "2022-04-04", "guest": "Marin Alsop", "title": "Conductor Marin Alsop talks about the joys and challenges of leading an orchestra", "question_index": 32, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with conductor Marin Alsop. There's a new documentary about her called \"The Conductor,\" which is streaming now on the PBS website and on other streaming platforms as well. She is now the chief conductor of the Vienna Radio Symphony Orchestra, the former conductor of the Baltimore Symphony Orchestra and the Sao Paulo Orchestra. And she's conducted orchestras on a guest basis around the world. Leonard Bernstein was a pretty flashy conductor, and it was always fun to, like, watch him 'cause it's like he was, you know, almost, like, dancing on stage. Did he encourage you to be that way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. I mean, I think I was really trying to be circumspect about who I am. This is more about who I am, not about them. And sometimes, I think I so want to be helpful, and I so want to move p"}
{"id": "1090802924", "date": "2022-04-04", "guest": "Marin Alsop", "title": "Conductor Marin Alsop talks about the joys and challenges of leading an orchestra", "question_index": 33, "text": "(Laughter).", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, gosh, no. He would say - I mean, he was funny though. He would say, look, don't imitate me, but do it like this, (laughter) you know?"}
{"id": "1090802924", "date": "2022-04-04", "guest": "Marin Alsop", "title": "Conductor Marin Alsop talks about the joys and challenges of leading an orchestra", "question_index": 34, "text": "Well, you know, in terms of, like, authenticity and who you are, there's who you are musically, and then there's also who you are...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So you would be like, OK, wait a minute. What are you saying to me? But, I mean, I - you know, we can all kind of do our Lenny imitations, but that's all they are. They're imitations. I mean, he - the"}
{"id": "1090802924", "date": "2022-04-04", "guest": "Marin Alsop", "title": "Conductor Marin Alsop talks about the joys and challenges of leading an orchestra", "question_index": 35, "text": "Yeah - who you are outside of music. And we are introduced to your wife in the documentary about you. Were you, like, in the closet when you were starting to conduct because - I mean, it was difficult enough that you were a woman. But to be a lesbian and a conductor, that might have been, like, really a bridge too far for, like, so many orchestras.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Laughter) Easy for you to say."}
{"id": "1090802924", "date": "2022-04-04", "guest": "Marin Alsop", "title": "Conductor Marin Alsop talks about the joys and challenges of leading an orchestra", "question_index": 36, "text": "I want to talk a little bit more about working with Bernstein. You know, there's a couple of clips with you working with him in the Tanglewood days, when you had your fellowship at Tanglewood, when you were studying conducting. And he seems so affectionate toward you. And you can see that not only in the look on his face, but he's kind of putting his hand on your shoulder and, I think, putting his arm - you know, his arm around you at one point. And you can tell that, like, he likes you and feels this bond with you. He's encouraging you. And I was watching that with two sets of eyes - one thinking, oh, he's really encouraging her, and the other thinking, if this was today, he could be accused of being, you know, inappropriate and touching you without, you know, asking your permission first. So are you very self-conscious now about how you touch people in the orchestras you conduct? And I'm wondering, too, if Europe has the same kind of sensitivities that America has now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think I had so many - what would I call them? - strikes against me. I mean, of course, I was young. I was a woman. And I was American. That was already, like, you know, three strikes and you'r"}
{"id": "1090802924", "date": "2022-04-04", "guest": "Marin Alsop", "title": "Conductor Marin Alsop talks about the joys and challenges of leading an orchestra", "question_index": 37, "text": "(Laughter).", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I think that it's always a good idea to try to be respectful and remember that not everyone is open to being touched, to being - you know, to having that physical contact. And well, of cours"}
{"id": "1090802924", "date": "2022-04-04", "guest": "Marin Alsop", "title": "Conductor Marin Alsop talks about the joys and challenges of leading an orchestra", "question_index": 38, "text": "I'm interested in hearing more about why you'd want to tie somebody's hand up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When their left arm is doing something weird, sometimes, I'll tie it to their - and I've really thought twice about doing that, you know, in the last few years. And before I tie up one of my students,"}
{"id": "1090802924", "date": "2022-04-04", "guest": "Marin Alsop", "title": "Conductor Marin Alsop talks about the joys and challenges of leading an orchestra", "question_index": 39, "text": "Like, what were they doing wrong that you wanted to correct?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Laughter)."}
{"id": "1090802924", "date": "2022-04-04", "guest": "Marin Alsop", "title": "Conductor Marin Alsop talks about the joys and challenges of leading an orchestra", "question_index": 40, "text": "Do other conductors who teach do that kind of stuff?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What happens is that since we're symmetrical beings, when one does something with one's right hand, there's a natural tendency to do it - the exact same gesture in opposition. So it becomes a mirror i"}
{"id": "1090802924", "date": "2022-04-04", "guest": "Marin Alsop", "title": "Conductor Marin Alsop talks about the joys and challenges of leading an orchestra", "question_index": 41, "text": "This is stuff you came up with yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have no idea."}
{"id": "1090802924", "date": "2022-04-04", "guest": "Marin Alsop", "title": "Conductor Marin Alsop talks about the joys and challenges of leading an orchestra", "question_index": 42, "text": "Oh, that's really interesting. Marin Alsop, it has just been great to talk with you again. Thank you so much, and thank you for your music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Laughter) Yeah. I mean, these are all techniques that I used on myself as I was trying to develop. You know, I'd watch myself on the video, and I'd say, oh, why can't I feel that sound, you know? I c"}
{"id": "1090802924", "date": "2022-04-04", "guest": "Marin Alsop", "title": "Conductor Marin Alsop talks about the joys and challenges of leading an orchestra", "question_index": 43, "text": "Marin Alsop is currently the principal conductor of the ORF Vienna Radio Symphony Orchestra. The new documentary about her is called \"The Conductor.\" It's streaming on the PBS website and on several other streaming platforms. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be Ocean Vuong, author of the acclaimed novel \"On Earth We're Briefly Gorgeous.\" He was born in Vietnam in 1988 and raised in the U.S. by his mother and grandmother, who was traumatized by the war. They didn't speak English. His mother couldn't read. He was marginalized by being an immigrant, poor and gay. He has a new poetry collection. I hope you'll join us. (SOUNDBITE OF STIFELMAN ET AL.'S PERFORMANCE OF JOHNSON'S \"VICTORY STRIDE (1944)\")", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my pleasure. Great to speak with you again, too."}
{"id": "1090802924", "date": "2022-04-04", "guest": "Marin Alsop", "title": "Conductor Marin Alsop talks about the joys and challenges of leading an orchestra", "question_index": 44, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham with additional engineering today from Diana Martinez. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I am Terry Gross. (SOUNDBITE OF STIFELMAN ET AL.'S PERFORMANCE OF JOHNSON'S \"VICTORY STRIDE (1944)\")", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my pleasure. Great to speak with you again, too."}
{"id": "1091422956", "date": "2022-04-07", "guest": "Jessica Bruder", "title": "How the abortion underground is prepping for a post-Roe v. Wade world", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. An abortion underground is mobilizing in preparation for the weakening or end of Roe v. Wade. It's expected that in June, the Supreme Court will decide on the constitutionality of a Mississippi law that directly challenges Roe. If the law is upheld, which many court watchers expect it to be, abortion law will be determined at the state level. My guest, journalist Jessica Bruder, wrote the cover story in the new edition of The Atlantic. It's titled \"The Abortion Underground.\" Bruder is also the author of the nonfiction book \"Nomadland,\" about the older men and women who can no longer afford to live in their homes and live instead in their vans or RVs, traveling around the country, taking part-time jobs in places like Amazon warehouses. The book was adapted into the film \"Nomadland,\" which won Oscars last year for Best Picture, Best Director and Best Actress. Jessica Bruder, welcome to FRESH AIR. How did you first find out about the abortion underground?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1091422956", "date": "2022-04-07", "guest": "Jessica Bruder", "title": "How the abortion underground is prepping for a post-Roe v. Wade world", "question_index": 1, "text": "You met a woman who actually showed you the device that you refer to that was created shortly before abortion was legalized. And you describe it as looking like a cross between an at-home brewing kit and a seventh-grade science experiment. So tell us what this device is made of.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In a pretty backwards way. I was - during the pandemic, just doing a lot of poking around on the internet. And I was reading the conference schedule for something called HOPE - Hackers On Planet Earth"}
{"id": "1091422956", "date": "2022-04-07", "guest": "Jessica Bruder", "title": "How the abortion underground is prepping for a post-Roe v. Wade world", "question_index": 2, "text": "So is that happening now? Are people, like, reviving that now in preparation for the possibility of abortion becoming illegal?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So this is a device with a few components. One of them is a needleless syringe, which creates suction. The other most important one is something called a cannula. It is a flexible plastic tube that's "}
{"id": "1091422956", "date": "2022-04-07", "guest": "Jessica Bruder", "title": "How the abortion underground is prepping for a post-Roe v. Wade world", "question_index": 3, "text": "You attended a session in which you witnessed a demonstration of how this kind of device can be used to perform an abortion. So tell us a little bit about what your reaction was and how safe you thought this was for women to administer to other women.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes and no. For a lot of people, it's totemic. It's a symbol that even when abortion was illegal last time, people found a workaround. There is a small number of people who are taking an interest in i"}
{"id": "1091422956", "date": "2022-04-07", "guest": "Jessica Bruder", "title": "How the abortion underground is prepping for a post-Roe v. Wade world", "question_index": 4, "text": "Is there a network of women who have been trained to do this and are willing to risk their safety by performing illegal abortions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was surprisingly anticlimactic, actually. I had done so much reading about this device and its use and talked to so many people that when I was actually there, I don't want to say it was boring, bu"}
{"id": "1091422956", "date": "2022-04-07", "guest": "Jessica Bruder", "title": "How the abortion underground is prepping for a post-Roe v. Wade world", "question_index": 5, "text": "So tell us more about the different facets, the different aspects of the abortion underground, because there's different branches of it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. So there's a network of people in general who refer to themselves as community providers. And the idea is a community provider could be anybody who's willing to connect women with abortion"}
{"id": "1091422956", "date": "2022-04-07", "guest": "Jessica Bruder", "title": "How the abortion underground is prepping for a post-Roe v. Wade world", "question_index": 6, "text": "You describe one group as outfitting bulletproof vans that can travel to different states where abortion is illegal and perform abortions and then get out of town. Tell us about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There are also sorts of people doing this work. And the abortion underground, admittedly, is a very kind of rough and lumpy umbrella to shade them all. So there are groups that are trying to help get "}
{"id": "1091422956", "date": "2022-04-07", "guest": "Jessica Bruder", "title": "How the abortion underground is prepping for a post-Roe v. Wade world", "question_index": 7, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is journalist Jessica Bruder. Her new article in The Atlantic is the cover story titled \"The Abortion Underground.\" It's about the underground that's preparing ways for women to get abortion if Roe is either overturned or further weakened by the Supreme Court. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, absolutely. That is a group called Abortion on Demand. And even though they want their vans to be stealthy, they're not even deep underground. This is a group that used to be called Just The Pil"}
{"id": "1091422956", "date": "2022-04-07", "guest": "Jessica Bruder", "title": "How the abortion underground is prepping for a post-Roe v. Wade world", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. My guest is journalist Jessica Bruder. Her new article in The Atlantic is titled \"The Abortion Underground.\" It's the cover story, and it's about the underground that's preparing ways for women to get abortion if the Supreme Court overturns the right to abortion or further weakens it. She also wrote the nonfiction book \"Nomadland\" that was adapted into the Oscar-winning film of the same name. A lot of women are looking to pharmaceutical abortions, the two abortion pills that you can use to bring on an abortion. But now, as The New York Times reports, these drugs are the new front for the war against abortion. So what are some of the new laws that are springing up to try to prevent women from using pills to have an abortion?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, absolutely. That is a group called Abortion on Demand. And even though they want their vans to be stealthy, they're not even deep underground. This is a group that used to be called Just The Pil"}
{"id": "1091422956", "date": "2022-04-07", "guest": "Jessica Bruder", "title": "How the abortion underground is prepping for a post-Roe v. Wade world", "question_index": 9, "text": "So the FDA has approved these drugs, and a lot of women get them through the mail. So if these drugs are outlawed in a specific state and a woman in that state asks for the pills to be sent from another state, what law would pertain to that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there are a lot of them. So already, there are 19 states that have made it illegal for these pills to get prescribed via telemedicine or delivered through the mail. We've got nine other states t"}
{"id": "1091422956", "date": "2022-04-07", "guest": "Jessica Bruder", "title": "How the abortion underground is prepping for a post-Roe v. Wade world", "question_index": 10, "text": "So you need a prescription to get these drugs, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a great question. And I don't think there's been a lot of tests of these new laws yet. But because they are federally approved, there's no way federal law would be brought down on people. And w"}
{"id": "1091422956", "date": "2022-04-07", "guest": "Jessica Bruder", "title": "How the abortion underground is prepping for a post-Roe v. Wade world", "question_index": 11, "text": "And how are you going to get a prescription in states that are making or trying to make the pills illegal?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "1091422956", "date": "2022-04-07", "guest": "Jessica Bruder", "title": "How the abortion underground is prepping for a post-Roe v. Wade world", "question_index": 12, "text": "There's a case you mention in your article where a mother who helped her 16-year-old daughter take the medical pills for abortion, you know, take the pharmaceutical pills for abortion - and the mother was targeted. Tell us that story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's complicated. So I know when people call Aid Access, there are actually doctors in Europe who are prescribing the pill to people who are trying to order it. In other cases, the pills are b"}
{"id": "1091422956", "date": "2022-04-07", "guest": "Jessica Bruder", "title": "How the abortion underground is prepping for a post-Roe v. Wade world", "question_index": 13, "text": "So there's a case coming before the Supreme Court that could result in the virtual end of Roe and leave abortion laws to states to decide. And many states would legally outlaw abortion if that was the case. So tell us about this Mississippi case.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The mother's name was Jennifer Whalen, and this is a case out of Pennsylvania. Jennifer Whalen learned that her 16-year-old daughter was pregnant and did not want to be and went online to buy the abor"}
{"id": "1091422956", "date": "2022-04-07", "guest": "Jessica Bruder", "title": "How the abortion underground is prepping for a post-Roe v. Wade world", "question_index": 14, "text": "New laws are being written in Oklahoma. The Oklahoma State House just passed a bill making performing an abortion a felony punishable by 10 years in prison and a $100,000 fine. As we record this on Wednesday, the governor has not yet signed it into law, but the governor has promised to sign all anti-abortion legislation. So what is the significance of this bill? What do you understand about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. That case is Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization. And in that case, the justices are looking at a Mississippi law that bans almost all abortions past 15 weeks of pregnancy, and th"}
{"id": "1091422956", "date": "2022-04-07", "guest": "Jessica Bruder", "title": "How the abortion underground is prepping for a post-Roe v. Wade world", "question_index": 15, "text": "Missouri is trying to prevent people from Missouri, residents of Missouri, from going to another state to get an abortion whether it's through pills or a medical procedure. Tell us a little bit about that and its significance.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's fascinating because it's beyond a trigger bill. It's not spring-loaded. It's not waiting for federal permission. It's just stepping out and banning abortion, which is incredibly audacious b"}
{"id": "1091422956", "date": "2022-04-07", "guest": "Jessica Bruder", "title": "How the abortion underground is prepping for a post-Roe v. Wade world", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is journalist Jessica Bruder. Her new article in The Atlantic is the cover story titled \"The Abortion Underground.\" She also wrote the nonfiction book \"Nomadland\" that was adapted into the Oscar award-winning film of the same name. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That is particularly wild and new, the idea that one could prevent somebody who's a resident from traveling and doing something else. I - we haven't seen anything like that among these restricti"}
{"id": "1091422956", "date": "2022-04-07", "guest": "Jessica Bruder", "title": "How the abortion underground is prepping for a post-Roe v. Wade world", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with journalist Jessica Bruder. Her new article is the cover story in The Atlantic. It's titled \"The Abortion Underground.\" It's about the new abortion underground that's preparing ways for women to get abortion if Roe is overturned by the Supreme Court or if access to abortion is further weakened. She also wrote the nonfiction book \"Nomadland\" that was adapted into the Oscar Award-winning film of the same name. You write that America wasn't always so sharply divided over abortion and that there used to be, like, patent medicines in, like, the 1800s - great names like Dr. Vandenburgh's Female Renovating Pills and Madame Drunette's Lunar Pills, which claimed to restore the menstrual cycle. Tell us about the pills. And I mean, they weren't marketed as abortion pills. Was it understood that that's what they were supposed to be?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That is particularly wild and new, the idea that one could prevent somebody who's a resident from traveling and doing something else. I - we haven't seen anything like that among these restricti"}
{"id": "1091422956", "date": "2022-04-07", "guest": "Jessica Bruder", "title": "How the abortion underground is prepping for a post-Roe v. Wade world", "question_index": 18, "text": "You say that after the AMA, the American Medical Association, organized in 1847, the AMA lobbied against abortion. Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, they were essentially wink-wink-nudge-nudge treatments. If you go back in time when America was new, traditional British common law was essentially the law of the land when it came to abortion, "}
{"id": "1091422956", "date": "2022-04-07", "guest": "Jessica Bruder", "title": "How the abortion underground is prepping for a post-Roe v. Wade world", "question_index": 19, "text": "So did you get the sense that people in the abortion underground that you write about in your Atlantic article are really determined to make abortion as accessible as possible if the Supreme Court further restricts or overturns Roe?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this was partially a canny business decision. If you go back, medicine didn't always - as a profession, didn't always have the respect that it does today. There were all sorts of people providin"}
{"id": "1091422956", "date": "2022-04-07", "guest": "Jessica Bruder", "title": "How the abortion underground is prepping for a post-Roe v. Wade world", "question_index": 20, "text": "Jessica, I know you're interested in subcultures. The abortion underground is a subculture. Your book \"Nomadland\" was about a subculture; it's about the subculture of modern nomads, people who can no longer afford a home and travel around, living in vans and RVs that have become their homes, and they often survive on temp work, seasonal temp work, at places like Amazon warehouses. How did you find out about this subculture?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One of the activists I spoke with told me that she believes reproductive rights aren't something that's granted by the state at all, that these are rights that people have inherently. And that seemed "}
{"id": "1091422956", "date": "2022-04-07", "guest": "Jessica Bruder", "title": "How the abortion underground is prepping for a post-Roe v. Wade world", "question_index": 21, "text": "How did you find the people you embedded with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Again, I was doing just a lot of reading and reviewing, which is - I have a huge appetite for research. And there was one story I read by the reporter Gabe McClelland in Mother Jones, and somebody app"}
{"id": "1091422956", "date": "2022-04-07", "guest": "Jessica Bruder", "title": "How the abortion underground is prepping for a post-Roe v. Wade world", "question_index": 22, "text": "So you traveled - what? - about 15,000 miles from the East Coast to the West Coast, from the Canadian border to the Mexican border. So you got to learn firsthand about what this kind of life was like. What were some of the dangers that you faced, having to find a place to park at night where you would be safe both from the police and from, you know, people who wanted to harm you or steal from you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, gosh, that was a long project. \"Nomadland\" actually started as a Harper's Magazine story, and it was the first time I'd written for them. And gosh, I was running around. I had spoken at a conferen"}
{"id": "1091422956", "date": "2022-04-07", "guest": "Jessica Bruder", "title": "How the abortion underground is prepping for a post-Roe v. Wade world", "question_index": 23, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is journalist Jessica Bruder. Her new article in The Atlantic is the cover story, titled \"The Abortion Underground.\" It's about the underground that's preparing ways for women to get abortion if Roe is either overturned or further weakened by the Supreme Court. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I considered myself as an immersion journalist. In some ways, I was a glorified tourist, right? So if I got ticketed, it wouldn't be the end of the world. I come back home to my apartment in New York."}
{"id": "1091422956", "date": "2022-04-07", "guest": "Jessica Bruder", "title": "How the abortion underground is prepping for a post-Roe v. Wade world", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. My guest is journalist Jessica Bruder. Her new article in The Atlantic is titled \"The Abortion Underground.\" It's the cover story. And it's about the underground that's preparing ways for women to get abortion if the Supreme Court overturns the right to abortion or further weakens it. She also wrote the nonfiction book \"Nomadland\" that was adapted into the Oscar-winning film of the same name. Did the people you meet, who were these new nomads, were there things they liked about the life, that they liked about traveling around? And did it bring a certain sense of freedom? Or was it more like a sense of desperation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I considered myself as an immersion journalist. In some ways, I was a glorified tourist, right? So if I got ticketed, it wouldn't be the end of the world. I come back home to my apartment in New York."}
{"id": "1091422956", "date": "2022-04-07", "guest": "Jessica Bruder", "title": "How the abortion underground is prepping for a post-Roe v. Wade world", "question_index": 25, "text": "So were the people in CamperForce, the people who lived in their vehicles and worked part-time at Amazon during the busy seasons - did Amazon provide safe places for them to park and sleep overnight?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's so interesting because I think we can actually hold all these ideas in our heads at the same time, because I did see joy and a sense of freedom and that so many people were used to living with th"}
{"id": "1091422956", "date": "2022-04-07", "guest": "Jessica Bruder", "title": "How the abortion underground is prepping for a post-Roe v. Wade world", "question_index": 26, "text": "When you were embedded with people living in their vans and RVs, what was one of the most dangerous and one of the safer places where you parked overnight?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Amazon used to contract with RV parks for its workers and offer that as part of, essentially, the pay package. But I don't think they do that anymore. The program is still around. And I believe it's u"}
{"id": "1091422956", "date": "2022-04-07", "guest": "Jessica Bruder", "title": "How the abortion underground is prepping for a post-Roe v. Wade world", "question_index": 27, "text": "Who tried to feed you too much?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I don't get off on that kind of adrenaline. So I think I generally was parked in pretty safe places. And part of that was I followed the wisdom of people around me who'd been doing it for a long tim"}
{"id": "1091422956", "date": "2022-04-07", "guest": "Jessica Bruder", "title": "How the abortion underground is prepping for a post-Roe v. Wade world", "question_index": 28, "text": "So these were fellow people living in their vans?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Everybody. It's a culture of hospitality."}
{"id": "1091422956", "date": "2022-04-07", "guest": "Jessica Bruder", "title": "How the abortion underground is prepping for a post-Roe v. Wade world", "question_index": 29, "text": "The film \"Nomadland\" adapted from your book. It won Academy Awards for best film, best director and best actress - Frances McDormand - last year. That must have been kind of thrilling for you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Absolutely. People were incredibly generous. Some of the people - it may sound like a cliche. But a lot of the people I met who had materially very little were some of the more generous pe"}
{"id": "1091422956", "date": "2022-04-07", "guest": "Jessica Bruder", "title": "How the abortion underground is prepping for a post-Roe v. Wade world", "question_index": 30, "text": "So the director, Chloe Zhao, likes to use real people playing versions of themselves in her films like she did in \"The Rider\" and in \"Nomadland.\" What was it like for you to see people who you know playing themselves on screen? Were they convincing as themselves?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "experience. I think it's still sinking in. For me, the most exciting part was seeing people from the book, people who I met and followed for up to three years who, in some ways, were not well-understo"}
{"id": "1091422956", "date": "2022-04-07", "guest": "Jessica Bruder", "title": "How the abortion underground is prepping for a post-Roe v. Wade world", "question_index": 31, "text": "Do you know if your book or the film adaptation changed the lives of anyone who you had written about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thought they were fantastic as themselves. And it was really heartening to me because I think in our culture, we are so good at siloing people. You know, I'm a journalist. You, Terry, are the host o"}
{"id": "1091422956", "date": "2022-04-07", "guest": "Jessica Bruder", "title": "How the abortion underground is prepping for a post-Roe v. Wade world", "question_index": 32, "text": "Jessica Bruder, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, for sure. I know that Linda has actually gotten off the road. I can't give too many details as she has receded from public life. But I will tell you that seeing her in her new neighborhood with "}
{"id": "1091422956", "date": "2022-04-07", "guest": "Jessica Bruder", "title": "How the abortion underground is prepping for a post-Roe v. Wade world", "question_index": 33, "text": "Jessica Bruder wrote the cover story for the new issue of The Atlantic. It's titled \"The Abortion Underground.\" She's also the author of the book \"Nomadland,\" which was adapted into the Oscar-winning film of the same name. After we take a short break, book critic Maureen Corrigan will review the new novel by Emily St. John Mandel. Her 2014 novel, \"Station Eleven,\" was adapted into the HBO Max series of the same name. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "1091256917", "date": "2022-04-08", "guest": "Kazuo Ishiguro", "title": "Kazuo Ishiguro draws on his songwriting past to write novels about the future", "question_index": 0, "text": "Kazuo Ishiguro, welcome back to FRESH AIR. It's been too long, so it's a pleasure to have you back. Does this book have a resonance that you didn't even expect it to have because of its release during the pandemic? Schools are closed, and in your novel, children don't go to school anymore. People are isolated from one another and are interacting through their computers. They're learning - children are learning on their devices. Is that something that - did you make any tweaks after the pandemic? I mean, the book is new. You wouldn't have had a lot of time to make changes.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University in New Jersey, in for Terry Gross. Nobel Prize-winning novelist Kazuo Ishiguro is known for his books \"Remai"}
{"id": "1091256917", "date": "2022-04-08", "guest": "Kazuo Ishiguro", "title": "Kazuo Ishiguro draws on his songwriting past to write novels about the future", "question_index": 1, "text": "I - you know, I have to say, the narrator of your novel is the artificial friend, Klara. And who wouldn't want a friend as self-sacrificing and devoted as Klara is, someone who's programmed to learn everything they can about you and to please you? And honestly, I found Klara the most sympathetic character in the novel. I mean, she's pure in a lot of ways, even though she's artificial.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no. If there are any reverberations, they're purely coincidental. You know, I finished the book before the pandemic. And I have to say, you know, it took me completely by surprise. You know, I did"}
{"id": "1091256917", "date": "2022-04-08", "guest": "Kazuo Ishiguro", "title": "Kazuo Ishiguro draws on his songwriting past to write novels about the future", "question_index": 2, "text": "Klara is seeing the world and people in the world as an outsider. She's programmed to know the things that she knows, but she's learning about, like, human emotion, and she's learning about people and about the outside world from experience. And the more experience she has, the more she understands about emotion and feelings. So what is the advantage to you, as a writer, writing from the point of view of such an outsider who's apart from the world and is just kind of learning about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It shouldn't be that surprising, really, though, that an artificial creature could actually solicit our sympathies as much as a human one. I mean, because after all, you know, characters in books are "}
{"id": "1091256917", "date": "2022-04-08", "guest": "Kazuo Ishiguro", "title": "Kazuo Ishiguro draws on his songwriting past to write novels about the future", "question_index": 3, "text": "Do you want to explain what lifted means in your book, or would that be giving too much away?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I've always been drawn to - you know, throughout my career to narrators who are, in one way or the other, quite a bit on the outside. But Klara was especially interesting for me because she do"}
{"id": "1091256917", "date": "2022-04-08", "guest": "Kazuo Ishiguro", "title": "Kazuo Ishiguro draws on his songwriting past to write novels about the future", "question_index": 4, "text": "Klara is solar powered. But the solar-powered battery or, you know, power source has a limited lifespan. Because she and other artificial friends need the sun to stay powered, to stay alive, she thinks of the sun as God and basically prays to it, asking for help, asking for interventions, when she needs it, promising to do good things in return. She doesn't understand that the sun isn't a God, that the sun doesn't live in the place where she sees it set every night, that the sun can be too harsh for human beings. And I assume that's in part because of the disappearing ozone layer", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But lifted is just the expression that's used colloquially in the book for kids who have benefited from gene-editing. They've been enhanced by gene-editing. And now this is something that is already"}
{"id": "1091256917", "date": "2022-04-08", "guest": "Kazuo Ishiguro", "title": "Kazuo Ishiguro draws on his songwriting past to write novels about the future", "question_index": 5, "text": "that also she doesn't understand. Is this a way of expressing what you think of religion, that it's a kind of false premise in a way, that we create gods because we misunderstand our own creation, our own self?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But lifted is just the expression that's used colloquially in the book for kids who have benefited from gene-editing. They've been enhanced by gene-editing. And now this is something that is already"}
{"id": "1091256917", "date": "2022-04-08", "guest": "Kazuo Ishiguro", "title": "Kazuo Ishiguro draws on his songwriting past to write novels about the future", "question_index": 6, "text": "Your father was an oceanographer. Am I right in saying that he was an engineer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think I was trying to be critical of religion. I just thought Klara would reflect that aspect of humanity, like she reflects other aspects of humanity. This isn't something that she really lea"}
{"id": "1091256917", "date": "2022-04-08", "guest": "Kazuo Ishiguro", "title": "Kazuo Ishiguro draws on his songwriting past to write novels about the future", "question_index": 7, "text": "When I was growing up, I didn't have any sense that, like, the machines in my life were invented by somebody.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. He was, like, an inventor."}
{"id": "1091256917", "date": "2022-04-08", "guest": "Kazuo Ishiguro", "title": "Kazuo Ishiguro draws on his songwriting past to write novels about the future", "question_index": 8, "text": "You know, like, they existed. And they were - you know, I didn't understand how they worked. But with your father having, like, created things, because I think one of the things or machines - I'm not sure what it was exactly - that he created is in a museum in England, did you have a sense growing up that, like, technology is created by people, that people actually do that? They're not things that just exist", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. He was, like, an inventor."}
{"id": "1091256917", "date": "2022-04-08", "guest": "Kazuo Ishiguro", "title": "Kazuo Ishiguro draws on his songwriting past to write novels about the future", "question_index": 9, "text": ". Like, people like your father create them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. He was, like, an inventor."}
{"id": "1091256917", "date": "2022-04-08", "guest": "Kazuo Ishiguro", "title": "Kazuo Ishiguro draws on his songwriting past to write novels about the future", "question_index": 10, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Kazuo Ishiguro. And he has a new novel called \"Klara And The Sun.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think I probably did. My father spent his whole life, his working life, just creating this one machine. He had a little department under him. That's why we were in Britain because the British "}
{"id": "1091256917", "date": "2022-04-08", "guest": "Kazuo Ishiguro", "title": "Kazuo Ishiguro draws on his songwriting past to write novels about the future", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Kazuo Ishiguro. He won the Nobel Prize for literature in 2017. His novels include \"Remains Of The Day\" and \"Never Let Me Go,\" which were both adapted into films. His new novel is called \"Klara And The Sun.\" And our book critic Maureen Corrigan called it a masterpiece. Let's talk about your life. So you were born in Nagasaki in '54? Do I have that right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think I probably did. My father spent his whole life, his working life, just creating this one machine. He had a little department under him. That's why we were in Britain because the British "}
{"id": "1091256917", "date": "2022-04-08", "guest": "Kazuo Ishiguro", "title": "Kazuo Ishiguro draws on his songwriting past to write novels about the future", "question_index": 12, "text": "OK. So - you know, it's after the war. How much of Nagasaki was rebuilt?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. November, 1954."}
{"id": "1091256917", "date": "2022-04-08", "guest": "Kazuo Ishiguro", "title": "Kazuo Ishiguro draws on his songwriting past to write novels about the future", "question_index": 13, "text": "Did they sometimes mention it because they wanted to protect children like you from hearing about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was completely rebuilt. Yeah. So I didn't have any real direct sense of this place being, you know, where the atomic bomb fell. It was just this thing that adults sometimes mentioned."}
{"id": "1091256917", "date": "2022-04-08", "guest": "Kazuo Ishiguro", "title": "Kazuo Ishiguro draws on his songwriting past to write novels about the future", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, your mother survived the bomb, right? I think your father was working in China at the time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't know what they did with each other when they were in their private moments. I mean, they must have lost so many people dear to them and so on. So I imagine there were more serious, you k"}
{"id": "1091256917", "date": "2022-04-08", "guest": "Kazuo Ishiguro", "title": "Kazuo Ishiguro draws on his songwriting past to write novels about the future", "question_index": 15, "text": "How did your mother survive?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He wasn't there. But my mother was there. All my mother's side of the family were there."}
{"id": "1091256917", "date": "2022-04-08", "guest": "Kazuo Ishiguro", "title": "Kazuo Ishiguro draws on his songwriting past to write novels about the future", "question_index": 16, "text": "Did your family describe things that they'd seen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, a lot of people survived. I mean, this is what people don't kind of quite understand. I mean, we're talking about what by - even by the standards of the 1960s were primitive, you know, a"}
{"id": "1091256917", "date": "2022-04-08", "guest": "Kazuo Ishiguro", "title": "Kazuo Ishiguro draws on his songwriting past to write novels about the future", "question_index": 17, "text": "So when you came to England from Japan with your parents, because your father had a job that was supposed to be temporary as a researcher, you move to - I think it was Guildford. And it was - it sounds very rural. You were, like, five minutes away from a farm. There were hedgehogs around. The milk was delivered by a horse and wagon.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross. Let's get back to Terry's interview with writer Kazuo Ishiguro from last year. He won the Nobel Prize for literature in 2017. His novels inc"}
{"id": "1091256917", "date": "2022-04-08", "guest": "Kazuo Ishiguro", "title": "Kazuo Ishiguro draws on his songwriting past to write novels about the future", "question_index": 18, "text": "So you're used to, like, a rebuilt city, Nagasaki, and the new technology of the time. Did you feel like you were entering, like, a different world and a different era?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's all true. Yeah. The farm was less than five minutes. The farm was less than five minutes. I mean, yeah. I mean, it was just - it was more or less right there."}
{"id": "1091256917", "date": "2022-04-08", "guest": "Kazuo Ishiguro", "title": "Kazuo Ishiguro draws on his songwriting past to write novels about the future", "question_index": 19, "text": "So you were a choirboy in church in England. Were your parents - did your parents practice any religion in Japan?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It certainly felt like a different world. And it felt like a much quieter, a less colorful world, I have to say. I mean, the children's toys were very muted and rather austere. And this is 1960. And w"}
{"id": "1091256917", "date": "2022-04-08", "guest": "Kazuo Ishiguro", "title": "Kazuo Ishiguro draws on his songwriting past to write novels about the future", "question_index": 20, "text": "So you grew up in England, which, you know, still has a monarchy. And your new novel, \"Klara And The Sun,\" has so much to do with a class structure, like a very rigid form of class structure. One of the jobs that you had when you were a young man was as a grouse beater. So I'm assuming - and this was for - was this for the Queen Mother?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, they were without religion. I remember at one point when I was about 15 or something, I asked, what was our religion? Because I know that in Japan, you had to have an official religion on your bir"}
{"id": "1091256917", "date": "2022-04-08", "guest": "Kazuo Ishiguro", "title": "Kazuo Ishiguro draws on his songwriting past to write novels about the future", "question_index": 21, "text": "But it just seems such a strange job, the idea of beating birds out of the heather so that the most privileged people in England can shoot them for sport.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was, yeah. But that was just like a - just for one summer."}
{"id": "1091256917", "date": "2022-04-08", "guest": "Kazuo Ishiguro", "title": "Kazuo Ishiguro draws on his songwriting past to write novels about the future", "question_index": 22, "text": "What did it feel like to participate in that? It doesn't seem like your values.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, but I don't think it's something unique to England by any means. Anywhere where there's any kind of, you know, game shooting, I think that's a system."}
{"id": "1091256917", "date": "2022-04-08", "guest": "Kazuo Ishiguro", "title": "Kazuo Ishiguro draws on his songwriting past to write novels about the future", "question_index": 23, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Kazuo Ishiguro, and he has a new novel called \"Klara And The Sun.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just did it as a very interesting experience for four weeks in the summer, you know. And it introduced me to, I suppose, a kind of a world I wouldn't normally see. You know, later that same year, I "}
{"id": "1091256917", "date": "2022-04-08", "guest": "Kazuo Ishiguro", "title": "Kazuo Ishiguro draws on his songwriting past to write novels about the future", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Kazuo Ishiguro. He won the Nobel Prize for literature in 2017. His novels include \"Remains Of The Day\" and \"Never Let Me Go,\" which were both adapted into films. His new novel is called \"Klara And The Sun.\" When you were hitchhiking across America, did that coincide with the period when so many Americans were turning to Eastern religions like Zen Buddhism? And as you were describing, your parents were from Japan and were - although they didn't really practice, they were officially Zen Buddhists. So I'm wondering what that period was like for you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just did it as a very interesting experience for four weeks in the summer, you know. And it introduced me to, I suppose, a kind of a world I wouldn't normally see. You know, later that same year, I "}
{"id": "1091256917", "date": "2022-04-08", "guest": "Kazuo Ishiguro", "title": "Kazuo Ishiguro draws on his songwriting past to write novels about the future", "question_index": 25, "text": "When you were on the road during the period when so many people were looking at Eastern religions, were you seen as somebody who could be closer to that because you were Japanese, your family was from Japan? You know, even though they didn't practice, Zen Buddhism was their official religion, were you seen as somebody who could, you know, be more enlightened as a result?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was quite a lot of that, actually. There was a lot of that in America to an extent I never experienced living in England, and particularly because I was actually - I was on the West Coast a lot "}
{"id": "1091256917", "date": "2022-04-08", "guest": "Kazuo Ishiguro", "title": "Kazuo Ishiguro draws on his songwriting past to write novels about the future", "question_index": 26, "text": "Not especially. But I think - if I wanted to play on that, I could. You know, I mean, you know, if I just, you know, because what happened - what would happen is that, you know, you would hitchhike into some town, into a city, you know, San Diego, you know, into Berkeley or wherever. And very rapidly, you'll learn that there was a place somewhere in that city where a lot of young people would just gather. And so in the way that I suppose many people are very highly aware of now, you would actually kind of create a sort of persona for yourself. And you'd just kind of join in and sit down and, you know, this will be your circle for the next two days or three days. And you could experiment with your identity in the way that I guess a lot of people do with social media now. And in that sense, I suppose kind of - being a kind of a long-haired Japanese guy with an English accent with a rucksack and a guitar, if I wanted to play up that kind of mystical side, I mean, I could. But I wasn't a big person for things like Zen and things like that, you know.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was quite a lot of that, actually. There was a lot of that in America to an extent I never experienced living in England, and particularly because I was actually - I was on the West Coast a lot "}
{"id": "1091256917", "date": "2022-04-08", "guest": "Kazuo Ishiguro", "title": "Kazuo Ishiguro draws on his songwriting past to write novels about the future", "question_index": 27, "text": "When you were on the road creating different - like, trying on different personas and trying to figure out who you were, who you wanted to be, what were some of the things that you tried that, you know, that you largely abandoned but maybe kept part of?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was quite a lot of that, actually. There was a lot of that in America to an extent I never experienced living in England, and particularly because I was actually - I was on the West Coast a lot "}
{"id": "1091256917", "date": "2022-04-08", "guest": "Kazuo Ishiguro", "title": "Kazuo Ishiguro draws on his songwriting past to write novels about the future", "question_index": 28, "text": "Can you give us a sense of the kind of songs that you were writing back when your aspiration was to be a singer-songwriter, and if you were willing - and might be asking too much - if you were willing to sing...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was then wanting to be a singer-songwriter, and that's why - cumbersome as it was. I mean, you try hitchhiking with a guitar, you know, an acoustic guitar. It's a really clumsy thing to carry around"}
{"id": "1091256917", "date": "2022-04-08", "guest": "Kazuo Ishiguro", "title": "Kazuo Ishiguro draws on his songwriting past to write novels about the future", "question_index": 29, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm not going to do that."}
{"id": "1091256917", "date": "2022-04-08", "guest": "Kazuo Ishiguro", "title": "Kazuo Ishiguro draws on his songwriting past to write novels about the future", "question_index": 30, "text": "In church, when you were a child, you were the lead choir boy - do I have that language, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was always a pretty competent musician. I still am. You know, I can play the guitar pretty well. And so, you know, like a lot of people, when I was 15 or so, I was writing these kind of intensely au"}
{"id": "1091256917", "date": "2022-04-08", "guest": "Kazuo Ishiguro", "title": "Kazuo Ishiguro draws on his songwriting past to write novels about the future", "question_index": 31, "text": "And so you must have had, like, a really good voice then. Did you want to change the kind of voice that you had? I mean, obviously, your voice changes when you become - when you start to become a man. But, like, was there a sweetness in your voice that you didn't want, you know, that you had when you were a boy in church that you didn't want as a singer-songwriter? Did you want to have a more, like, I've-lived-life kind of voice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was always a pretty competent musician. I still am. You know, I can play the guitar pretty well. And so, you know, like a lot of people, when I was 15 or so, I was writing these kind of intensely au"}
{"id": "1091256917", "date": "2022-04-08", "guest": "Kazuo Ishiguro", "title": "Kazuo Ishiguro draws on his songwriting past to write novels about the future", "question_index": 32, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Absolutely. No, before my voice broke, by all accounts, you know, I had this beautiful, angelic voice, and so I had a kind of local fame. I would sing solos at the church choir and also at"}
{"id": "1091256917", "date": "2022-04-08", "guest": "Kazuo Ishiguro", "title": "Kazuo Ishiguro draws on his songwriting past to write novels about the future", "question_index": 33, "text": "Kazuo Ishiguro, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know - which is absurd, you know? And so - but to this day, this business about voice is very important. I mean, you know, when I'm writing, the actual voice of the narrator is very important."}
{"id": "1092816157", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Shane Goldmacher", "title": "The midterm elections will show if Trump is still a 'kingmaker'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The midterm elections in November will determine which party controls Congress, so there's a lot at stake. The primaries will also test how much power Donald Trump holds within the Republican Party and whether the party's new litmus test is endorsing the lie that Trump won in 2020. My guest, Shane Goldmacher, a national political correspondent for The New York Times, has been writing about Trump's attempts to be a kingmaker in the party. He's been endorsing a lot of candidates to show the power he has to reward or punish, but some of his endorsements have been backfiring. Goldmacher has also been investigating new secret coalitions of wealthy Republicans trying to wield power outside traditional party machinery. Trump is implying he wants to run again in 2024, but he hasn't yet announced. Goldmacher has been reporting on accusations that Trump is now violating campaign finance law by fundraising for his political endeavors without having announced his run. He's also continuing to find new, previously unheard of ways of cashing in on his status as a former president. Shane Goldmacher, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1092816157", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Shane Goldmacher", "title": "The midterm elections will show if Trump is still a 'kingmaker'", "question_index": 1, "text": "You write that Trump wants to be a Republican kingmaker. He's endorsed more than a hundred and twenty candidates to elevate his allies, punish those who've crossed him and turn the lie that the election was stolen into a litmus test for the party. How's this track record so far? If you look at the range of his candidates, how is he doing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me on."}
{"id": "1092816157", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Shane Goldmacher", "title": "The midterm elections will show if Trump is still a 'kingmaker'", "question_index": 2, "text": "Pennsylvania's an interesting race, which I just want to refer to briefly here, because Trump decided to endorse Dr. Mehmet Oz, who is a famous TV personality. Before he had his own show on TV, he was a regular on Oprah's show. So you've got one reality TV guy endorsing another TV guy", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We're about to find out, is the short answer. You know, he's endorsed all these candidates. There's only been one primary so far in 2022, and it was in Texas. And all the candidates that he supported "}
{"id": "1092816157", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Shane Goldmacher", "title": "The midterm elections will show if Trump is still a 'kingmaker'", "question_index": 3, "text": ". So it's interesting in that respect. And, you know, I live in Philadelphia, so their ad campaigns have been a little crazy. Have you been seeing their ads?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We're about to find out, is the short answer. You know, he's endorsed all these candidates. There's only been one primary so far in 2022, and it was in Texas. And all the candidates that he supported "}
{"id": "1092816157", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Shane Goldmacher", "title": "The midterm elections will show if Trump is still a 'kingmaker'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Who would you say is further to the right between McCormick and Oz?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, relentless. I think it's one of the most expensive races in the country and extremely negative - extremely negative ads, basically a bombardment of attacks on Dr. Oz for being a RINO - you kno"}
{"id": "1092816157", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Shane Goldmacher", "title": "The midterm elections will show if Trump is still a 'kingmaker'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Yeah, they call him a Hollywood liberal.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's hard to say who's further to the right. You know, neither of them fit the sort of mold of a current Trump Republican. You know, Oz was a television personality. He came about through \"T"}
{"id": "1092816157", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Shane Goldmacher", "title": "The midterm elections will show if Trump is still a 'kingmaker'", "question_index": 6, "text": "The Hollywood star on the Walk of Fame. On the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A Hollywood liberal. And there's pictures of him kissing the Hollywood star. And the word RINO is tossed about almost every hour on television in Pennsylvania."}
{"id": "1092816157", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Shane Goldmacher", "title": "The midterm elections will show if Trump is still a 'kingmaker'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Let's talk about Alabama and Congressman Mo Brooks. To refresh everybody's memory, he was a big supporter of the falsehood that Trump actually won the election. He spoke at the January 6 rally. He voted against certifying the election. Trump endorsed him and then withdrew the endorsement, and that really backfired on Trump. Can you talk about that a little bit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, the Hollywood star on the Walk of Fame. There's an image of him reaching down and kissing it, which is the close and open to quite a number of television ads this cycle. You know, so you have Oz "}
{"id": "1092816157", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Shane Goldmacher", "title": "The midterm elections will show if Trump is still a 'kingmaker'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Meanwhile, after Trump rescinded his endorsement of Mo Brooks, Mo Brooks spoke out against Trump. Refresh our memory about what Mo Brooks had to say about Trump.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So one of Trump's early endorsements in this cycle was of Mo Brooks, who, as you just said, was a leader in the efforts to block the certification of the 2020 election. And his alliance with Trump and"}
{"id": "1092816157", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Shane Goldmacher", "title": "The midterm elections will show if Trump is still a 'kingmaker'", "question_index": 9, "text": "You know, so we've been talking about how the Republican congressman from Alabama, Mo Brooks, says that Trump asked him to say that Biden lost the election and to try to call for a new special election that would help reinstall Trump in the White House. So that's a quid pro quo. And Brooks isn't the only candidate who's said that Trump basically wants something in return for an endorsement. What else have you heard about what candidates say Trump has wanted in return?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So the same day that Trump rescinded his endorsement of Mo Brooks, Brooks went public and said that Trump had asked him to sort of pursue some way to rescind the 2020 election result and reinsta"}
{"id": "1092816157", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Shane Goldmacher", "title": "The midterm elections will show if Trump is still a 'kingmaker'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is New York Times national political correspondent Shane Goldmacher. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I think that the No. 1 thing he wants is loyalty and the promise to amplify the mistruth that the 2020 election was stolen. There's been a lot of specific things that he's sort of pushed for. "}
{"id": "1092816157", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Shane Goldmacher", "title": "The midterm elections will show if Trump is still a 'kingmaker'", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Shane Goldmacher, a national political correspondent for The New York Times. He's been writing about the midterms and what they're revealing about divisions within the Republican Party, new dark money groups trying to wield power, Trump's attempts to prove he's a Republican kingmaker, and the ways Trump continues to cash in on his post-presidency, as well as his possible run in 2024. When Trump endorses a candidate, what does that candidate typically get? Is it easier to attract money with Trump's endorsement?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I think that the No. 1 thing he wants is loyalty and the promise to amplify the mistruth that the 2020 election was stolen. There's been a lot of specific things that he's sort of pushed for. "}
{"id": "1092816157", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Shane Goldmacher", "title": "The midterm elections will show if Trump is still a 'kingmaker'", "question_index": 12, "text": "I think you say that the candidates who Trump endorses can hold events at Mar-a-Lago, or at least some of them do that. But those are probably really costly events, no?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, this is the fascinating thing, which is it's not so clear exactly what they get. They get a statement from Donald Trump and sort of do with it what you will. For all the energy and effort that"}
{"id": "1092816157", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Shane Goldmacher", "title": "The midterm elections will show if Trump is still a 'kingmaker'", "question_index": 13, "text": "You write that some of Trump's own advisers have warned him that he's making some risky endorsements and that his endorsements, instead of proving he's a kingmaker, might backfire on him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "These are costly events. So he has turned Mar-a-Lago into a fundraising hot spot for other candidates. And look; there is an entire Republican donor set in Palm Beach that likes to engage in politics."}
{"id": "1092816157", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Shane Goldmacher", "title": "The midterm elections will show if Trump is still a 'kingmaker'", "question_index": 14, "text": "So you said that you think Trumpism is winning out in the Republican Party. What does Trumpism mean today aside from supporting Trump?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. This is a real concern. Why endorse in some of these races where there are multiple candidates who are pro-Trump? And I do think that it's worth noting, regardless of how Trump does person"}
{"id": "1092816157", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Shane Goldmacher", "title": "The midterm elections will show if Trump is still a 'kingmaker'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is New York Times national political correspondent Shane Goldmacher. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's not a specific policy agenda so much as an attitude and an approach to politics that is culture based and grievance based and trying to do things like build the wall and, you know, focus "}
{"id": "1092816157", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Shane Goldmacher", "title": "The midterm elections will show if Trump is still a 'kingmaker'", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Shane Goldmacher, national political correspondent for The New York Times. He's been writing about the midterms and what they're revealing about divisions within the Republican Party - new dark money groups trying to wield power, Trump's attempts to prove he's a Republican kingmaker and the ways Trump continues to cash in on his post-presidency as well as his possible run in 2024. So we've been talking about how Trump wants to be the Republican Party's kingmaker. Does he have any rivals for kingmaker within the party?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's not a specific policy agenda so much as an attitude and an approach to politics that is culture based and grievance based and trying to do things like build the wall and, you know, focus "}
{"id": "1092816157", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Shane Goldmacher", "title": "The midterm elections will show if Trump is still a 'kingmaker'", "question_index": 17, "text": "I'd love to know if you can tell us anything about what the leaders of the Republican Party in Congress really think about Trump and what they say behind the scenes compared to what they say in public. And I'm thinking here of Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell and also of Kevin McCarthy in the House. Like, where do they really stand on Trump? Do you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "More than he used to. I think that there has been an increased willingness for Republicans to make their own waves and their own separation from him. You know, you have his former vice president, Mike"}
{"id": "1092816157", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Shane Goldmacher", "title": "The midterm elections will show if Trump is still a 'kingmaker'", "question_index": 18, "text": "And then he voted to keep him in office.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think Mitch McConnell's been pretty clear where he stands on Trump. You know, he spoke extremely forcefully after January 6 about how unacceptable the behavior was."}
{"id": "1092816157", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Shane Goldmacher", "title": "The midterm elections will show if Trump is still a 'kingmaker'", "question_index": 19, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is New York Times national political correspondent Shane Goldmacher. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. And then at the same time, he voted to keep him in office. And he said that if Trump's the nominee again in 2024, he would support him. There was a recently a terrific interview that Jonathan"}
{"id": "1092816157", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Shane Goldmacher", "title": "The midterm elections will show if Trump is still a 'kingmaker'", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Shane Goldmacher, national political correspondent for The New York Times. So you've been writing about ways that Trump is cashing in on his post-presidency. What are some of the ways he's doing that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. And then at the same time, he voted to keep him in office. And he said that if Trump's the nominee again in 2024, he would support him. There was a recently a terrific interview that Jonathan"}
{"id": "1092816157", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Shane Goldmacher", "title": "The midterm elections will show if Trump is still a 'kingmaker'", "question_index": 21, "text": "He's been marketing messages to people on his 2020 campaign email list in order to sell MAGA merchandise. Is that legal?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's a long list - no, truthfully. I mean, one of the ones that's most interesting to me - and this is not the big money. The biggest money away is this SPAC, this effort to create a social "}
{"id": "1092816157", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Shane Goldmacher", "title": "The midterm elections will show if Trump is still a 'kingmaker'", "question_index": 22, "text": "So while we're talking about Trump and money, Trump's 2020 campaign led to millions of dollars that actually had to be refunded to Trump donors. There were complaints of fraud. Can you explain those complaints?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. This is another thing. His Trump store - so it's, like - I don't remember the exact URL. But he has his own private store that he launched while he was in the White House. And, you know, they se"}
{"id": "1092816157", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Shane Goldmacher", "title": "The midterm elections will show if Trump is still a 'kingmaker'", "question_index": 23, "text": "So let me stop you. So in order to not make monthly donations, you had to notice that there was a pre-checked box saying you were making monthly donations. And you had to uncheck that box. You had to take action", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. This is a story that I wrote last spring. And it's pretty fascinating. If you've ever donated money to a political campaign, you know, there's often a box that says, would you like to make this "}
{"id": "1092816157", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Shane Goldmacher", "title": "The midterm elections will show if Trump is still a 'kingmaker'", "question_index": 24, "text": "if you didn't want to make monthly donations?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. This is a story that I wrote last spring. And it's pretty fascinating. If you've ever donated money to a political campaign, you know, there's often a box that says, would you like to make this "}
{"id": "1092816157", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Shane Goldmacher", "title": "The midterm elections will show if Trump is still a 'kingmaker'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Shane Goldmacher, thank you so much for coming on our show. And thanks for your reporting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. That's what they did earlier in the campaign. And then they made the box more complicated. They added a second box to take out a bonus donation a few days later. And they added all kinds of e"}
{"id": "1092816157", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Shane Goldmacher", "title": "The midterm elections will show if Trump is still a 'kingmaker'", "question_index": 26, "text": "Shane Goldmacher is a national political correspondent for The New York Times. Our interview was recorded yesterday. After we take a short break, we'll listen back to my 1992 interview with comic Gilbert Gottfried. He died Tuesday at the age of 67. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me on."}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Comic Gilbert Gottfried died Tuesday of a form of muscular dystrophy that affected his heart. He was 67. Gottfried typically performed in persona as an annoying, cranky, sometimes crude guy with a raspy, irritating voice that he sometimes exploited to say things considered inappropriate or in bad taste. With that voice, he played the evil, devious parrot in the Disney animated film \"Aladdin.\" But Gottfried's sense of humor sometimes got him into trouble, like when he tweeted jokes about the 2011 tsunami in Japan and was then dropped as the voice of the duck in the Aflac insurance TV commercials. I spoke with him in 1992. I was in our Philadelphia studio. He was at NPR's New York bureau. When he arrived there, I learned he was only doing interviews in his on-stage persona. I couldn't talk Gottfried into just being himself. So what could I do? I went ahead with the interview. It led to a hilarious moment in the interview that's always stuck with me. We started with a clip from \"Aladdin\" with Gottfried as Iago, the evil pet parrot of the evil ruler, Jafar. Here's the two of them plotting together.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 1, "text": "Who were the comics that you heard growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Jafar) I love the way your foul, little mind works."}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 2, "text": "Did you hear Jackie Mason when you were growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let's see - all of them. I liked Edgar Bergen and Charlie McCarthy because I loved a ventriloquist who could get away with being on the radio. I thought he had the biggest scam in show business. I alw"}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 3, "text": "That's perfect. That's really - you would have had me fooled.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. (Imitating Jackie Mason) You know, a person like you, this is not against you personally, I think you're a terrific, you know what I mean?"}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 4, "text": "What did you think of him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 5, "text": "You do a really funny impression of two other comics, of David Brenner and Jerry Seinfeld in deep conversation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I always liked Jackie Mason. (Imitating Jackie Mason) But what he thinks to me personally, this I can't tell you."}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 6, "text": "Can you do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 7, "text": "Do you think that Brenner and Seinfeld have heard this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I always thought David Brenner in a conversation with Jerry Seinfeld would be (imitating David Brenner) hey, Jerry, Jerry, you ever eat pizza? You ever eat pizza? (Imitating Jerry Seinfeld) Why "}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes, they both heard it. And in fact, a few times, Jerry Seinfeld has said to people (imitating Jerry Seinfeld) I don't think that sounds anything like me."}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 9, "text": "How did you start doing other comics?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Imitating Jerry Seinfeld) Where does he get the idea that I talk like that? I don't have a funny way of speaking."}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 10, "text": "Probably your comics - other comics are your closest friends, so I'm sure this is also a technique for ensuring you have no friends left.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just basically to annoy people. Like, I started out annoying people, and I want to take it to the nth degree."}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 11, "text": "Is it effective?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 12, "text": "I was listening to Howard Stern a couple of weeks ago and got the impression you were in the hospital for a while.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well, what were your symptoms? Did you call an ambulance or something?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I had a burst appendix. It was a burst appendix. I was actually rushed in to the operating room. I was about an hour away - they said I had about an hour ago - an hour to go before I would just b"}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 14, "text": "The world of comedy mourns one of its own tonight.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I went into the hospital. They didn't even know what was wrong. I was there for about three days. And I could have actually died actually on the operating - they were amazed I made it. And if I "}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 15, "text": "Have you been on \"ET\" yet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, (vocalizing). It's like they play their regular theme music but on a slow speed."}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 16, "text": "So", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes. And I never actually speak to the people who are the hosts. It's - when they do that show, they send out, like, just any flunky they can get to interview you and then they splice it together"}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 17, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes. And I never actually speak to the people who are the hosts. It's - when they do that show, they send out, like, just any flunky they can get to interview you and then they splice it together"}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 18, "text": "So I guess being in the hospital didn't make you change your mind about staying in persona all the time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So they usually give you the wrong question, and you totally make a fool out of yourself on that show."}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 19, "text": "Now, I know I am not able to get Gilbert Gottfried out of persona. But what about the surgeons? I bet you didn't talk to them this way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, I'm staying this way. In fact, when I was in the hospital, I thought maybe I'll be more obnoxious. So I tried being Buddy Hackett for a while, but it just didn't work."}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yeah, but when the anesthesiologists were coming - you know how the anesthesiologists interview you beforehand?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, they knocked me out during surgery, so they wouldn't have to listen to me."}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 21, "text": "They do...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As a matter of fact, the anesthesiologist interviewed me and also showed a clip from some shows that I'd been on. It was a very professional hospital. The anesthesiologist sat in a chair. I lied on th"}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 23, "text": "Did she know who you were?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then she even took a break for commercial."}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 24, "text": "Did you ever go to the Catskills and hear any of the Borscht Belt comics there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes. And then after they wheeled me out, they brought on Charo."}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 25, "text": "That's it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Let's see. I've seen some. I always liked Borscht Belt. There would always be the comic going, and the Jews and the Italians and my kids in their room and the Jews who talk to the Italians - the"}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 26, "text": "They didn't have persona comics in those days, did they? You think, like, Jackie Mason is - or Myron Cohen were in persona? Would you call it that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 27, "text": "That's true, isn't it? That's true.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's hard to tell what Myron Cohen was. Myron Cohen was like a Jew trying to sound like he's British. It's like - when Myron Cohen would talk, it was always like, (imitating Myron Cohen) an adorable o"}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 28, "text": "Except the punchline would always be in Yiddish.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was always trying desperately to sound like he's actually a refined Englishman."}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 29, "text": "Would you get the joke when...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it would be, (imitating Myron Cohen) an adorable old Jewish woman is walking along the boardwalk when an elderly Jewish man approaches her. He says to her, can I take you out on a date? The Jewis"}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 30, "text": "What's the first thing you ever said in front of a microphone?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Yeah, (speaking Yiddish), yeah. That was - oh, I could see that coming from a mile away."}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 31, "text": "You don't remember your first time out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I don't remember. That's a good question, though."}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 32, "text": "Tell me what you remember about it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do, but I - vaguely."}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 33, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was - I was about 16 years old, and it was, like, open mic night in Greenwich Village. Like, not even - they didn't even call it open mic. This was before the comedy boom, so it was, like, called h"}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 34, "text": "So everybody was doing folk stuff, and you were doing comedy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So you had about a hundred and fifty people who was, like, doing folk songs - like, 2,000 people sounding like Bob Dylan. Even the waiter sounded like Bob Dylan. Everyone sounded - it was like - the w"}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 35, "text": "Can we make a deal?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And so it was unusual. Then the comedy boom came later on. Now it's like every single cable station and network station has a comedy show 24 hours a day, practically, where there's a comic standi"}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 36, "text": "When you decide to come out of persona...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 37, "text": "...And start doing interviews out of persona, are you going to give me a call?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 38, "text": "All right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 39, "text": "Oh, sure. That's what they all do.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But first I'll do Barbara Walters."}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 40, "text": "And you're going to cry.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That has to be..."}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 41, "text": "You're going to - and you're going to talk about how - that you were abused, and that's why you're in persona...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 42, "text": "...Because the world was too insensitive to you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 43, "text": "And so after you tell her all of that, then you're going to come on and talk with me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All of my relatives were alcoholics, and they all beat me, Barbara."}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 44, "text": "Well, thanks. Thanks a lot.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 45, "text": ". My interview with Gilbert Gottfried was recorded in 1992. He died Tuesday. He was 67.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1092823237", "date": "2022-04-14", "guest": "Gilbert Gottfried", "title": "Remembering comic Gilbert Gottfried", "question_index": 46, "text": "If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed - like this week's interview with actor Molly Shannon or writer Delia Ephron or the author of Pandemic, Inc., about the people who came up with schemes to exploit the pandemic for profit - check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Therese Madden directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 0, "text": "Jessica Williams, this is something we've wanted to do for a long time. It's a real pleasure to have you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for giving me a few minutes to share this with you. And now let's hear the interview she did with Terry when she sat down at the piano at our studios in 1997."}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 1, "text": "...Here in our studio.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 2, "text": "I'd like you to open with some music. Maybe you can introduce it for us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 3, "text": "Sounds great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. Well, maybe I'll play a tune that everybody knows - or not everybody, but most everybody - \"Getting Sentimental Over You.\" Is that OK?"}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 4, "text": "Oh, that was wonderful", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 5, "text": ". And I'm not sure if our listeners could figure out exactly what was happening there when you were strumming inside the piano.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 6, "text": "You were strumming the keys sometimes instead of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. I don't know..."}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 7, "text": "Right. You were strumming the strings is what I should say, not strumming the keys.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Someone might have thought a string broke or something."}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 8, "text": "It does.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And you can create a chord that way. It sounds a little like an autoharp."}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 9, "text": "Visually as well as sonically. You do all kinds of interesting sonic things.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it gets people's attention."}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 10, "text": "Now, you're playing is very influenced by Thelonious Monk.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, the palette for playing inside the piano for me is limited to, I'd say, just a few things that I use pretty regularly. I try not to overuse them. When I first started doing this, I thought t"}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 11, "text": "And I'd like you to talk about what happened when you first started to listen to Monk and what you heard in his playing that you hadn't heard before.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 12, "text": "I want you to play a short version of a Monk tune that you particularly like and that's affected your way of listening and playing.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to our 1997 interview and performance from our archives with the late jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams."}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 13, "text": "That's wonderful. That's Jessica Williams at the piano. I wish our listeners could see your fingers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. I think I'll play \"Bemsha Swing.\""}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 14, "text": "They're really fun to watch. And you played half of that piece with your hands crossed over. So the right hand was playing in the bass clef. And the left hand was playing in the treble clef.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 15, "text": "Why play that part that way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 16, "text": "Now, it's interesting, you seem like a born jazz musician. But you really started as a child, basically, studying, I guess, in a program for young people at the Peabody Conservatory of Music in a classical music...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK?"}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It was actually a Peabody prep - it was a preparatory school. I started very young. So I guess I was around 12 or 13 years old. And I was playing Rachmaninoff, I think, at that point. And I was "}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 18, "text": "You learned a lot from listening to records.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I learned it off the record. So I went and played it for my teacher. And he said, well, you know, most of the notes are right. And the chords are right. But the fingering is all wrong. And then th"}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 19, "text": "Did you learn solos by heart when you were listening early on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 20, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, our hit on the melody was more like this."}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 21, "text": "A lot of what you do in your music is what some people would consider mistakes, you know, dissonances that some people...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of our concert and interview with jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams. She died last month, a week before her 74th bir"}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 22, "text": "Well, that's what I mean, though. There's dissonances you use that some people would perceive as, like, wrong notes or out-of-tempo things that some people would perceive as, like, wrong tempos. And I'm wondering, coming from classical music, if you assimilated that really quickly, if there were harmonies that were foreign to you when you started listening to jazz or rhythmic things that were foreign to you and that you learned and then learned to subvert in interesting ways, or if you just kind of naturally felt that as soon as you heard it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 23, "text": "Like what?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it was pretty natural. There were certain things that I heard Thelonious do that at first sounded very wrong to me."}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 24, "text": "Great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let's take the way he played \"I Should Care.\" This is very interesting. I don't play it exactly, and I never transcribe solos or learn things exactly off the record. But I was very influenced by the w"}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 25, "text": "I like that, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I like that."}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 26, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God, what a chord. And at first I thought, well, that's totally ridiculous. And then he played it throughout the entire tune, and I realized it's exactly what he wanted to do. And that chord, f"}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 27, "text": "You have a composition that's inspired by Monk's music...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...'Cause it was so different. It stood out like a billboard, like an orange billboard against a blue sky. It was like, look at me."}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 28, "text": "...Called \"Monk's Hat.\" It happens to be a piece that we play on FRESH AIR quite often.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 29, "text": "It's a great piece, and I'm going to ask you to play a short version of that for us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 30, "text": "I really love that. And I love the way you play with tension and release in that because it's so fulfilling when you start going into more of, like, a swing or a stride tempo after playing with the rhythm and having all this jagged rhythms, and you switch back and forth. Love it", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Here we go."}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 31, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Here we go."}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 32, "text": "Yeah, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I like variety."}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 33, "text": "Jessica, it strikes me from the incredible proficiency that you have at the piano that you must have spent a lot of your childhood in the house, at the piano practicing. While everybody else in the neighborhood went about their kid lives or their teenage lives, you were probably sitting at the piano a lot of that time, practicing.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to our 1997 interview and performance with jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams. She died last month, one week before her 74th birthday."}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 34, "text": "When you were young and spending a lot of time at home with the piano, did you ever feel like you were sacrificing something in the rest of life to stay home? Did you ever envy the kids who were out going to more parties or playing sports or whatever your peers were doing at the time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, actually, actually, I was. And I think I was by choice. I mean, nobody stood over me and said, you have to do this. Matter of fact, I had to beg my family to get me a piano. I mean, it was somet"}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 35, "text": "You do amazing things with jazz standards, with familiar tunes that you kind of take apart and put back together again. I'm going to ask you to play a standard for us and to do what you do with it. Would you play the Gershwin song, \"Nice Work If You Can Get It\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I - yeah, that's an interesting question. That's a deep, deep question. Probably yes. I probably felt alienated a lot of times, probably well into adulthood. And - but I think that I tried to bring th"}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 36, "text": "OK. And this is Jessica Williams at the piano.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I'll give it a try."}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 37, "text": "Oh, it's great. It's Jessica Williams at the piano. I love that. You had a great stride thing going there. You use a kind of stride left hand a lot in...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I'll give it a try."}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 38, "text": "...In your playing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's..."}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 39, "text": "For our listeners who aren't familiar with the expression stride piano, would you just...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's an entirely different world for me. Stride piano is something that sometimes I can really get it going, and I can go really fast with it. Other times, I feel the time a little differently. "}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 40, "text": "That's great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK?"}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 41, "text": "In your listening, did you go back as early as James P. Johnson, who's, you know, one of the fathers of stride piano and started recording in the '20s?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Or we could always do it as a ballad, you know? There's so many ways to play tunes. And the really great tunes you can do almost anything to. You know, you can play them fast, slow, run them up the fl"}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 42, "text": "What about his playing changed you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I kind of did everything backwards. I started with the music - by the time I was 6 years old, listening to Coltrane, Miles, even Eric Dolphy. I was introduced to free music. And then I turned around a"}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 43, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that real - oh, so groovy, you know?"}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 44, "text": "Talking about music that has influenced you, I know a lot of horn players, saxophonists, have influenced you, although they don't play chording instruments. And I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about, say, the influence of Sonny Rollins on your playing, the saxophone of Sonny Rollins.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the rest of our concert and interview with Jessica Williams, recorded in 1997."}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 45, "text": "Great. Now, what did you quote in there - \"Camptown Races\" and \"Dixie\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's what he plays, and that's what I wrote the tune around, I realized - was..."}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 46, "text": "Why do those come to mind?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I put a whole bunch of quotes in there. I've been..."}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 47, "text": "Jessica Williams, I have enjoyed this so much. It's been a concert and a piano lesson. Thank you so much for being with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I was trying to be cute. Now, I was - while I was playing, it just occurred to me that I had heard Sonny play something - I can't remember. This is in the murky, distant past, and I can't remember i"}
{"id": "1093047427", "date": "2022-04-15", "guest": "Danny Miller", "title": "Remembering jazz pianist and composer Jessica Williams", "question_index": 48, "text": "And we all love your music on FRESH AIR. So thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me. I'm really honored to be here. Thank you."}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest is comic, actor and writer Jerrod Carmichael. Maybe you saw him hosting \"Saturday Night Live\" a couple of weeks ago. He was really funny. He has a new HBO comedy special called \"Rothaniel.\" What does that mean, right? Well, we soon find out. The special is all about secrets. It starts like this.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 1, "text": "He delivers on that promise to reveal personal secrets - about his real name, his family tree and his sexual orientation. It's a lot. Toward the end, when he's interacting with the audience, his show starts to look like a hybrid of a comedy show and a therapy session. Carmichael has done two other HBO comedy specials, \"Love At The Store,\" directed by Spike Lee, and \"8,\" directed by Bo Burnham. Carmichael is also the creator and star of the sitcom \"The Carmichael Show\" that ran on NBC for three seasons. That show portrayed a fictional version of Carmichael's family. Many episodes were about them disagreeing with each other on complicated and uncomfortable issues, like, is it still OK to enjoy Bill Cosby's comedy? Is it OK to have a gun in the house? How do you eulogize a father who mistreated you? Is it OK to take the morning after pill if the condom breaks? In Carmichael's HBO special \"Home Videos,\" he returned home to Winston-Salem, N.C., and filmed conversations with his real family members about sensitive family topics. His new special \"Rothaniel,\" also directed by Bo Burnham, was taped this year at the Blue Note Jazz Club in New York City. Jerrod Carmichael, welcome back to FRESH AIR. It's such a pleasure to have you on the show. I love the new special. Congratulations. And you really were great on \"Saturday Night Live,\" so congratulations on that, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Welcome to the show, everybody."}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 2, "text": "Oh, my pleasure. What changed in your life that you were willing and able to tell secrets now on stage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much. Thank you for having me."}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Before we get to coming out, let's start with your name, which you tried to keep secret. Jerrod is your middle name. Your first name, as you reveal in the special, is the title of the special, which is \"Rothaniel.\" Tell us about the origin of the name.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I got tired. I think I grew tired of being someone I wasn't. I felt like I was, like, just hiding. They call it being in the closet, I guess, for a reason, because it does feel like you just h"}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The name comes from my father. He made me after my two grandfathers, his father and my mother's father, Robert and Nathaniel - combined the two names at birth and never really used it. Like, we immedi"}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 5, "text": "So what did you have to do to keep your name a secret?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And so, like, it was big. It took up too much space. And I didn't want it. I didn't want any parts of it."}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 6, "text": "You had to keep a lot of secrets as a kid. And one of them was about your family tree - your grandparents, your father and all the extramarital affairs they had and all the outside children that they had.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I hid it as much as I could. On legal documents, they have to write your first name. So I always hid those and turned papers upside down and never showed anyone my driver's license. And as soon "}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 7, "text": "What about your friends? Like, you were keeping the secret about your family tree. But did your friends - were your friends in the same situation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a lot. My - one of my grandfathers had dozens outside of his marriage. And the other had a few himself, including my father, who had a few children outside of his marriage to my mother, which I k"}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 8, "text": "So how did - I mean, your mother didn't know about this, or at least she acted like she didn't know. And your father didn't know that you knew. How did you know that he was having these other relationships and had these other children?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I have friends in, like, broken families. It's a lot of broken families, you know, children with - who don't know their fathers or, you know, a group of children with one set of parents and step-s"}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is comic, writer and actor Jerrod Carmichael. His new HBO comedy special is called \"Rothaniel.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a small town. I'm from Winston-Salem, N.C. And I had, like, instances where a friend had seen him with, you know, his aunt and told me about it. And you hear whispers. And I don't remember any ex"}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with comic, writer and actor Jerrod Carmichael. His new HBO comedy special is called \"Rothaniel.\" It's all about secrets, about his real name, his family tree and his sexual orientation. So these are powerful things to be carrying around as a child. You're hiding your name.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a small town. I'm from Winston-Salem, N.C. And I had, like, instances where a friend had seen him with, you know, his aunt and told me about it. And you hear whispers. And I don't remember any ex"}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 11, "text": "When you figure out your sexual orientation, you're hiding that. You're hiding the truth about your father's relationship. You're hiding it from - that you know from your father. You're hiding his relationship from your mother. You're living with them. I mean, you see them every day, and you have this huge secret you're carrying around about their relationship. How did you bear all that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 12, "text": "How could you even trust your father knowing how he deceived your mother? Did you wonder, like, what else don't I know about you? What else are you hiding?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". You know, like, I thought I did. I thought I beared it. I thought I beared it without consequence, I should say. And I didn't. I didn't go out unscathed. It's definitely things that affect my behavi"}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 13, "text": "Especially with your mother reading the Bible, you know? Like, your mother's reading the Bible to friends, and you're keeping this really big secret about the family. That must have been strange.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know, that there was this, like, other side of a person that I didn't see, something I didn't know about. Yeah, yeah, but I love him. I love him."}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 14, "text": "What does that passage mean to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, again, also, like later in life, you start realizing really irony in a lot of the Bible verses that my mother would read and how they would reflect situations that she didn't know. Jeremiah 33:1"}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Oh, gosh, so complicated. You know, like, you are - like, your existence is God's gift to your mother. And that was instilled in you right from the start. And you were so involved in your church. And yet, you know, there was, quote, \"sin\" in your home. You know, I put that in quotes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", but I'm just saying how important that relationship with God is and how much it was instilled in me as a child."}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 16, "text": "OK. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 17, "text": "That's so confusing to a child, isn't it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's not a false quote. I think that's how it would be described."}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 18, "text": "You say that you made your father tell your mother about his outside relationships with other women and his children by other women. How did you make your father tell your mother? If you don't mind my asking, what did you say to your father? And how old were you when you said it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It definitely shaped my perspective. Again, like, it's - I remember the fear. I remember the anxiety. I remember kind of going through life maybe with a clenched fist a little "}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 19, "text": "Was he shocked that you knew?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "in London. And, like, God, I remember it being so late, like after midnight. And I started the conversation with, this will all go OK as long as you don't lie to me. And I'm glad I said that, taking l"}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yeah, you do.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I think I say that in the special. But that's true."}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 21, "text": "OK. Well, let's talk more about that in a moment, but we have to take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jerrod Carmichael - comic, writer, actor. He created \"The Carmichael Show\" on NBC and starred in it. He's had several HBO comedy specials. His new one is called \"Rothaniel.\" We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I think it made sense. I think it made sense to him."}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with comic, writer and actor Jerrod Carmichael. His new HBO comedy special is called \"Rothaniel.\" It's all about secrets - about his real name, his family tree and his sexual orientation. He also created and starred in the NBC comedy series \"The Carmichael Show\" about a family loosely based on his own, who constantly disagree on issues relating to politics, guns, abortion, everything. He's also had other HBO comedy specials. And again, his new one is called \"Rothaniel.\" So continuing with you telling your father that he had to tell your mother about his affairs, about his children outside of their marriage - and so you told him he needed to do that, and he did it. He told your mother. Did you worry that maybe your mother was better off not knowing, maybe the best thing for her life was to continue living without that knowledge, without that really painful knowledge?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I think it made sense. I think it made sense to him."}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 23, "text": "That she'd leave him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, of course. Of course. I mean, I thought it would be over..."}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Well, you asked your mother about finding out about this in your special \"Home Videos.\" So I thought I'd play an excerpt of that in which you're asking your mother about, you know, learning about these secret relationships and staying with your father in spite of it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And say - and it's over. Well, I don't even know what I thought the exact reaction would be, but something explosive. Yeah, I thought it would be devastating."}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Getting back to the church again. So do you think, in retrospect, that you did the right thing in getting out the truth?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One name - Jesus."}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 26, "text": "You said you haven't been talking to your mother a lot. Is that because of the special and because of airing family secrets in public?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "for me right now."}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 27, "text": "No, it's all right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's around - no, it's around the - it's - before the - you know, it's a little bit of a rift. And a - I don't know why I'm saying a little bit. It's definitely a rift and a strain on the relationship"}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 28, "text": "You made a joke in an earlier comedy special about how a friend of yours came out, and you didn't know why because he was doing very well and he should have waited until he needed the applause and the support", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But loving myself requires me to not feel like the core of my sexuality is just wrong, right? And if it's not validated, you know, or even acknowledged that I'm gay, it just triggers a little thing in"}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 29, "text": ". So what were you thinking about when you came up with that for your comedy - for an earlier one?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But loving myself requires me to not feel like the core of my sexuality is just wrong, right? And if it's not validated, you know, or even acknowledged that I'm gay, it just triggers a little thing in"}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 30, "text": "Critic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know - I don't know the word, but, you know..."}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 31, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just remember thinking, I don't want to be that person. It was self-hate. You know, I think that was, like, a little peek through of, like, oh, wait, is that what I'm doing? Like, it was - so I don'"}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 32, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is comic, writer and actor Jerrod Carmichael. His new HBO comedy special is called \"Rothaniel.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, like, you know, yeah, I felt bad."}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 33, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with comic, writer and actor Jerrod Carmichael. His new HBO comedy special is called \"Rothaniel.\" It's all about secrets about his real name, his family tree and his sexual orientation. You know, you've said that there was a - there's been periods in your life where you thought you'd rather die than come out. What were the consequences that you feared?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, like, you know, yeah, I felt bad."}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 34, "text": "What was the model of masculinity you grew up with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "talk about gay people sometimes."}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 35, "text": "What did that do to your head, having friends who were killed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A lot of - I think there were - in a world without fathers, I think there was an overcompensation. So people find fathers elsewhere. You'll find a father. You'll find, like, you need it for balance. A"}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 36, "text": "Did that add to your fear of consequences if you came out - if people knew, that they'd see you as being more vulnerable? And there are guns around. And the consequences could be, like, fatal.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "a little bit."}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 37, "text": "Race was an issue, too, when you were coming out, in the sense that, like, one of your boyfriends was white. And in one of your home videos - and \"Home Videos\" is another HBO special, an earlier one - you're talking, I think it's to your sister, to one of your sisters. And you say, how would you react if I brought home a white girlfriend? And she says, you know, that she wants you to embrace Black love. And you kind of question, like, you know, what does that mean? But anyways, so when you had a white boyfriend and you were keeping secret that it was a boyfriend and that the boyfriend was white, like, can you talk about that, the double secret, the, like, racial and sexual secret?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "you know? Like, it's a lot of people just on guard. It's a really masculine culture, you know? You're taught to get as much money as you can, you know, girls, protect your family, that type of rhetori"}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 38, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jerrod Carmichael. He has a new HBO comedy special, which is called \"Rothaniel,\" which, by the way, is his real first name, which he kept hidden most of his life until now. So we'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, the racial part, less of a secret and more of something that I need to explore in my own life about, you know, I find men of all races very attractive. But, like, what root of self-hate or f"}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 39, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with comic, writer and actor Jerrod Carmichael. His new HBO comedy special is called \"Rothaniel,\" and it's all about secrets - secrets about his real name, his family tree and his sexual orientation. And he comes out about all of that in the new comedy special. How old were you when you realized you were gay?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, the racial part, less of a secret and more of something that I need to explore in my own life about, you know, I find men of all races very attractive. But, like, what root of self-hate or f"}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 40, "text": "You know, we talked about how deeply religious your mother is, and in her view of Christianity, like, homosexuality is a sin. Like, she is really having trouble accepting that. And that is part of the reason why you've had such trouble accepting it and being open about it over the years. But, you know, you say that you're still Christian but that it's taken a lot and that you've had to reconfigure God and what God is in order to accept yourself and kind of rebuild from there. What was church like when you were growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "like, you know, for most of the world, I was straight presenting, so I was able to hide. You know, even as a kid, you know, I didn't really play sports, but, you know, my jeans were just baggy enough "}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 41, "text": "Did you ever do comedy in church?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And church was just, like, the first place that, like, gave me a microphone and an audience. And it's a great show. It's an excellent show."}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 42, "text": "So, like, comedy was like your superpower. You know, you had to hide your actual identity, like a lot of superheroes have to do, but you had this superpower, which was comedy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I mean, but, yeah, definitely. I was pretty funny there. And it was always fun to make adults laugh. Like, I was one of those kids who really liked making adults laugh 'cause making other kids laugh"}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 43, "text": "So, you know, I just want to end by saying that I hope you and your mother kind of get back together again 'cause you seem like you're so close in so many ways, and I hope that she's able to eventually appreciate the openness that you have now and the acceptance of yourself and the reality of your truth and meet you there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Like, they are very funny."}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 44, "text": "Jerrod Carmichael, thank you so much for talking with us. It's just really been great to speak with you again and hear you be so open, and I think it's been great for your comedy. I love the new special. And it sounds like it's been really good for your life as well. So congratulations on all of that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for that. And I hope so, too. And I know it starts with myself. Like, you know - and it's not me trying to take responsibility for anyone else's feelings. But I do know that the world can't "}
{"id": "1093301387", "date": "2022-04-18", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 45, "text": "Jerrod Carmichael's new HBO special is called \"Rothaniel.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be country music star Tim McGraw. He wins Grammys, sells out concerts, and he's an actor. He and his wife, country star Faith Hill, star in the Paramount+ TV Western series \"1883\" as a married couple making their way in a covered wagon up the Oregon Trail. It's a prequel to the series \"Yellowstone.\" I hope you'll join us. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our senior producer today is Sam Briger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much. I really appreciate talking to you, appreciate your words. It's been fun."}
{"id": "1093709649", "date": "2022-04-20", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest is Richard Thompson, who's been a guest several times on our show because his music is so great. He stands out for the originality and the darkness of his songwriting, singing and guitar playing. He's been an influence on many performers, and his songs have been covered by people like Robert Plant, Elvis Costello and R.E.M. In 1967, he co-founded the British group Fairport Convention, which created a new genre, a hybrid of traditional folk music of the British Isles and rock. The group performed traditional songs and originals, and many of those originals were written by Thompson. Sandy Denny was the lead singer. Thompson had no faith in his own voice as a singer and only started singing on stage after leaving the band in 1971 and going solo in '73. He formed a group with his girlfriend, then wife, Linda Thompson. They sang duets, sometimes with Linda, sometimes with Richard singing lead. Their last album together was in 1982. Then the band and the marriage split up. It's hard for me to imagine a time when he wasn't a singer because his voice is so sure and strong and able to express the emotions in the surprising, dark, melodic and lyrical turns of his songs. Thompson's memoir, \"Beeswing: Losing My Way And Finding My Voice 1967-1975,\" has just been published in paperback. It focuses on his early years as a performer with Fairport and with Linda Thompson. It's also about his childhood and teenage years. The title, \"Beeswing,\" comes from the title of one of his songs. We'll be talking about his formative years, but I want to start with a more recent album from 2018. The album is called \"13 Rivers.\" The song is called \"The Storm Won't Come.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1093709649", "date": "2022-04-20", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 1, "text": "Richard Thompson, welcome back to FRESH AIR. It's always such a treat to have you on the show. I love your music so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I'm longing for a storm to blow through town and blow these sad old buildings down. Fire to burn what fire may and rain to wash it all away. But the storm won't come. But the storm won't com"}
{"id": "1093709649", "date": "2022-04-20", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 2, "text": "You have such a dark sensibility. And I'm thinking about how so much of pop music over the decades, particularly in the pre-Dylan era, were about love and romance and, you know, more chaste sex because you weren't allowed to use sexually explicit words in the earlier days of pop. But so many traditional ballads, like the ballads of the British Isles that you, you know, started singing are about love and murder and revenge and death and storms at sea and hangings and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. Thank you so much."}
{"id": "1093709649", "date": "2022-04-20", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 3, "text": "Happy stuff. Is that part of what you loved about those old ballads?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, happy stuff."}
{"id": "1093709649", "date": "2022-04-20", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 4, "text": "Your father was from Scotland. And your grandmother - and I don't know if it was your maternal or paternal grandmother - sang a lot too, in Gaelic sometimes. Can you talk a little bit about the songs you learned just from hearing them sing and what their style of singing was like? And if you were willing, to sing a few bars of one of those songs that you grew up with.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it is. I don't know why we're so attracted to this stuff. It's great storytelling, the old Scottish and Irish palettes and English palettes are just wonderful storytelling. And if you gr"}
{"id": "1093709649", "date": "2022-04-20", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 5, "text": "You know, you write that school was like prison for you. And the only thing that you were interested in was music, playing guitar. And before the British invasion, teenagers in England were in love with American rock 'n' roll and blues. And that's what influenced the Beatles and the Rolling Stones and Eric Clapton and countless others. You ended up going your own way and finding, like, your roots, not in American roots, but in traditional music of the British Isles. But what styles did you try? What kinds of music did you play before finding that you wanted to go your own way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. My dad's mother was from (inaudible). And she, you know, she wasn't a great singer, but she sang around the house. I don't think I could sing you something she sang because it was in Gaelic, "}
{"id": "1093709649", "date": "2022-04-20", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 6, "text": "You know, you write it didn't seem indulgent at that time - and you're talking about the '60s - for me to play a guitar solo for 10 minutes. In fact, it was expected. Half an hour wouldn't have been exceptional, as audiences were increasingly stoned and hearing things from an altered perspective. We, on the other hand, were relatively sober. What was it like in those days playing those really super-long guitar solos? Did you feel at the time that it was self-indulgent?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, growing up in London, we had access to all kinds of music because everything came through London. So you could go and hear jazz. You could hear classical music. You could hear good R&B. You "}
{"id": "1093709649", "date": "2022-04-20", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 7, "text": "What was behind the founding of Fairport Convention? And what made you think that you wanted to and that the band should explore the music of, you know, the traditional British ballads?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It didn't feel self-indulgent because everyone else was really doing the same thing. So if we were opening for Pink Floyd, I think it would almost be expected that there would be long instrumental pas"}
{"id": "1093709649", "date": "2022-04-20", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 8, "text": "The first song that was a traditional song that Fairport did was \"She Moves Through The Fair.\" And of course, Sandy Denny was the lead singer. Why was this the song that was chosen to be the first actual traditional song that the band did?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think we started out as a bunch of friends. Myself and Ashley and Simon were three like-minded, you know, North London teenagers fairly determined to not be like other bands. I think we thought ther"}
{"id": "1093709649", "date": "2022-04-20", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 9, "text": "Why don't we hear that recording? This is Sandy Denny with Fairport Convention, \"She Moves Through The Fair.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when Sandy joined the band, we didn't have a lot of rehearsal time. We were playing shows all the time. And so we had to get Sandy into the band, to integrate Sandy into the band, as quickly as "}
{"id": "1093709649", "date": "2022-04-20", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 10, "text": "That was an early Fairport Convention song with my guest, Richard Thompson, on guitar. He has a memoir called \"Beeswing\" that's just been published in paperback. Let's take a short break here and then talk some more. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) My young love said to me, my mother won't mind and my father won't slight you for your lack of kind. And she laid her hand on me. And this she did say, oh, it will not be long, love, 'till o"}
{"id": "1093709649", "date": "2022-04-20", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Richard Thompson. His memoir, \"Beeswing: Losing My Way And Finding My Voice 1967-1975,\" has just been published in paperback. When you started becoming deeply involved with - you know, musically with traditional music, did you do a lot of research, looking for old ballads that - you know, that struck you as music you and Fairport should be performing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) My young love said to me, my mother won't mind and my father won't slight you for your lack of kind. And she laid her hand on me. And this she did say, oh, it will not be long, love, 'till o"}
{"id": "1093709649", "date": "2022-04-20", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 12, "text": "Is there a song that you found through this research that you're still particularly fond of?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We did a lot of research. And for our first forays into traditional rock, you know, whatever you want to call it, we did look at some of the older ballads, particularly Scottish ballads, that had powe"}
{"id": "1093709649", "date": "2022-04-20", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 13, "text": "Would you mind singing a few bars of it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I love a song like \"Willow Day,\" which is also known as \"Adieu, Adieu,\" which is - it's like a highwayman's song. It's just such a perfect, beautiful song. It's got a great tune, has wonderful"}
{"id": "1093709649", "date": "2022-04-20", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 14, "text": "Yeah. Our listeners may be hearing birds in the background", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. Yeah. Well, I'll start, anyway. (Singing) Adieu, adieu, Hard was my fate. I was brought up in a tender state. Bad company, it did me entice. I left off work and took bad advice, which makes me now"}
{"id": "1093709649", "date": "2022-04-20", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 15, "text": ". And, do you want to explain to us where you are?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. Yeah. Well, I'll start, anyway. (Singing) Adieu, adieu, Hard was my fate. I was brought up in a tender state. Bad company, it did me entice. I left off work and took bad advice, which makes me now"}
{"id": "1093709649", "date": "2022-04-20", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 16, "text": "You write that it was hard to keep the sound of unaccompanied singing, the kind of singing that was often done with traditional songs, and the ambiguity of key and the lack of resolution in the melody once you put instruments behind it. Can you elaborate on that? And maybe, if you could, sing perhaps an example of the ambiguity of key and the lack of resolution in the melody that you refer to.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. I'm in a car park because my house was too noisy. So I'm just watching some robins getting frisky. It's sort of mating season - and very charming."}
{"id": "1093709649", "date": "2022-04-20", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 17, "text": "So how did you deal with that as a guitarist?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. You know, it's tempting when you grow up in sort of Western music to put out anything that's from outside of it into the basic Western chord structure, you know? Like, C, F, G or something will fi"}
{"id": "1093709649", "date": "2022-04-20", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 18, "text": "Well, let's hear the song you were just talking about. This is Fairport Convention.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As a guitarist, I learned from people like Martin Carthy and Davy Graham, some of the great acoustic guitar players in Britain. And as a band, we try to arrange things in that way. And we did a song m"}
{"id": "1093709649", "date": "2022-04-20", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 19, "text": "That was Fairport Convention, with my guest, Richard Thompson, on guitar. Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Richard Thompson. And his new memoir is called \"Beeswing,\" which is also the title of one of his songs. We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) They had not sailed long on the deep when a queen's ship they chanced to meet. You sailors all, pray tell me true. Does my sweet William sail among your crew?"}
{"id": "1093709649", "date": "2022-04-20", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with songwriter, singer and guitarist Richard Thompson. His memoir, \"Beeswing: Losing My Way And Finding My Voice 1967-1975,\" has just been published in paperback. In the late '60s, he co-founded the British group Fairport Convention, which created a new genre, a hybrid of traditional folk music of the British Isles and rock. The group performed traditional songs and originals. Many of those originals were written by Thompson. He left the group, went as a duo with his girlfriend, then wife, Linda Thompson. And then after about 10 years of recording together, they broke up musically and as a married couple, and he's been solo ever since. You write in your memoir about what it was like when Jimi Hendrix came to London. How did you feel his impact?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "GLENCOE - SCOTT SKINNER'S ROCKIN' STEP - BONNY BANCHORY\")"}
{"id": "1093709649", "date": "2022-04-20", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 21, "text": "So when you're playing this, like, new kind of music combining, you know, traditional music and rock, was it hard to find an audience?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I went to see him fairly early on, probably early 1967, a little club, held about 300 people. And he was something clearly different. You know, he'd taken ideas from people like The Who, some of Pete "}
{"id": "1093709649", "date": "2022-04-20", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 22, "text": "Let's talk about that car crash. This was in 1969. And you and the band and your girlfriend at the time, Jeannie, were in the car. And the person driving was like your manager or your road manager?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The audience were really there for us. And, you know, I think we only really started playing that music 100% after we had a traffic accident that killed our drummer. And we had great sympathy from our"}
{"id": "1093709649", "date": "2022-04-20", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 23, "text": "And you'd just played a club in Birmingham. You were driving home. And you want to describe what happened? Is that too much to ask? I know it's very traumatic, so...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Road manager, yeah."}
{"id": "1093709649", "date": "2022-04-20", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 24, "text": "But you knew that - you knew he was falling asleep. You tried to grab the wheel. You did grab the wheel to avert crashing into a pole. And you didn't crash into the pole, but the car, you know, spiraled into a tunnel instead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's OK. Yeah, I can answer that. So we're driving back to London. We're almost at London. And our driver falls asleep. And the van, you know, veers off the road."}
{"id": "1093709649", "date": "2022-04-20", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 25, "text": "What was the project?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it kind of spiraled. I mean, wasn't - not literally into a tunnel, but it spiraled and rolled. And, you know, we ended up off the road and down an embankment. There were injuries. My girlfriend "}
{"id": "1093709649", "date": "2022-04-20", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 26, "text": "So the album that you mentioned, \"Liege & Lief,\" had a lot of traditional songs, but a couple of originals. I want to play an original that you wrote that's on that album, \"Crazy Man Michael.\" Can you say something about the song before we hear it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the project was really to do the \"Liege & Lief\" album, which was the next album. And this was a more traditional record. I think there were a couple of original songs, but it was supposed to"}
{"id": "1093709649", "date": "2022-04-20", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 27, "text": "Well, let's hear it. This is Fairport Convention with Sandy Denny singing lead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the song's metaphorical. It's almost like a magical world, like a parallel universe, a dream world, and not far removed from the world of traditional music and the kind of themes, the supernat"}
{"id": "1093709649", "date": "2022-04-20", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 28, "text": "That's Fairport Convention from their album \"Liege & Lief.\" My guest is Richard Thompson, who was the guitarist and lead songwriter for the band. And then of course, he sang with Linda Thompson after that and then went solo and has been solo for years. How long did the band stay together after the accident?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Within the fire and out upon the sea, crazy man Michael was walking. Het met with a raven with eyes black as coals, and shortly they were a-talking. Your future, your future, I would tell it"}
{"id": "1093709649", "date": "2022-04-20", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 29, "text": "But Sandy Denny was asked to leave, and then you left.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1093709649", "date": "2022-04-20", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 30, "text": "A few years later, Sandy Denny died. She fell down. I think she fell down a flight of stairs. And it seemed to be ambiguous whether it was death by suicide or an accident. You think it was an accident.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think we lasted just a few months after the accident, and then, you know, Sandy left or was asked to leave. It was a bit ambiguous what was really the driving force behind that. Ashley left as"}
{"id": "1093709649", "date": "2022-04-20", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 31, "text": "You know, we talked about how much death there is in traditional British folk music and how - you know, you perform so many of the songs, and so many of your own songs are modeled on that. And I'm thinking about how there was, you know, death in your life at an early age, from the car accident and then Sandy Denny, you know, dying. So, like, you knew the death of peers through, you know, surprising and awful twists in their lives.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do think it was an accident. I don't think she was someone who would ever contemplate suicide. But she'd become really unreliable. She had a young baby. She was very irresponsible. And in some ways,"}
{"id": "1093709649", "date": "2022-04-20", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 32, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. My guest is songwriter, singer and guitarist Richard Thompson. He has a memoir called \"Beeswing: Losing My Way And Finding My Voice 1967-1975.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that does something to you. You know, people lose parents young sometimes. You know, people get orphaned, or they lose their parents through illness or something, a war. And I think it m"}
{"id": "1093709649", "date": "2022-04-20", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 33, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Richard Thompson. His memoir, \"Beeswing: Losing My Way And Finding My Voice 1967-1975,\" has just been published in paperback. After leaving Fairport and playing with a lot of other bands, you and your girlfriend-then-wife Linda Thompson formed a group, and you did remarkable music together. How do you think performing with her changed you as a songwriter? Because you were writing songs for yourself and writing songs for her.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that does something to you. You know, people lose parents young sometimes. You know, people get orphaned, or they lose their parents through illness or something, a war. And I think it m"}
{"id": "1093709649", "date": "2022-04-20", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 34, "text": "So I want to play a song that she sings lead on, and you sing on the chorus, and this is \"Walking On A Wire,\" and it's from the album \"Shoot Out The Lights,\" which was your last album together in 1982. Can you talk about writing this song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Interesting. I think, well, it had to make me empathetic to someone else's points of view. And particularly, to write songs from a female perspective is very difficult, and I'm not sure I ever r"}
{"id": "1093709649", "date": "2022-04-20", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 35, "text": "Well, let's hear it. So this is Linda Thompson singing lead with Richard Thompson also on vocals. And this is from their album together, \"Shoot Out The Lights,\" recorded in 1982.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's a relationships, you know, being right on the edge, really, you know, or up on a high wire and you can fall off at any, any moment. You know, some people say - not me necessarily - but some"}
{"id": "1093709649", "date": "2022-04-20", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 36, "text": "That was Richard and Linda Thompson from their album \"Shoot Out The Lights\" from 1982. You know, we talked about how you didn't really sing during the Fairport Convention years. And you shared vocals with Linda Thompson when you were in a duo with her. What was it like for you when you first tried to figure out if you could sing on stage, if you were good enough? I love your voice so much and it's so distinctive. I mean, I never confuse your voice with anybody else's. And - I don't know. Your singing just kind of speaks to me. But you never thought of yourself as a singer. So how did you figure out who you were as a singer and what qualities of your voice that you liked and were comfortable with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I hand you my ball and chain. You just hand me that same old refrain. I'm walking on a wire. I'm walking on a wire. And I'm falling. I wish I could please you tonight. But my medicine just w"}
{"id": "1093709649", "date": "2022-04-20", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 37, "text": "I would say. Let's take a short break here and then talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is songwriter, singer and guitarist Richard Thompson. His new memoir is called \"Beeswing: Losing My Way And Finding My Voice 1967-1975.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was a very slow process. In fact, I used to sing harmony. I'd sing behind Sandy or something. But when you have someone who's that strong and that in tune as a singer, it's very easy just t"}
{"id": "1093709649", "date": "2022-04-20", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 38, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with songwriter, singer and guitarist Richard Thompson. His new memoir is called \"Beeswing: Losing My Way And Finding My Voice 1967-1975.\" You've said, you know, that it's sometimes hard to tell where a song comes from. They just kind of come to you. When you write songs now, are they coming from a different place at all? Because you're - you've lived through so much more than you did when you were young and also you've written so many songs. I think it's hard for a lot of people to not keep writing the same song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was a very slow process. In fact, I used to sing harmony. I'd sing behind Sandy or something. But when you have someone who's that strong and that in tune as a singer, it's very easy just t"}
{"id": "1093709649", "date": "2022-04-20", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 39, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think you have to be aware of writing the same song over and over. On the other hand, if you write the same song over and over, you might finally get it right."}
{"id": "1093709649", "date": "2022-04-20", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 40, "text": "Do you think your songs now in your 70s are coming from a different place at all than they did when you were younger?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I think there's a lot of writing with variations. You're almost writing the same song, but you managed to make it different enough that people won't notice too much. But you know what you're aimin"}
{"id": "1093709649", "date": "2022-04-20", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 41, "text": "I want to close with the song \"Beeswing,\" which is the title of your book as well as the title of the song. And it's one of your better-known songs. I think it's also the title of your music publishing company.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, definitely, yeah. Yeah, I think that they come from a certain maturity for sure. They're not songs that you write when you're 20, I don't think. On the other hand, you know, I love the energy of t"}
{"id": "1093709649", "date": "2022-04-20", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 42, "text": "Yeah. So what is it about this song that means so much to you that you've named the book and your publishing company by it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it is. Yeah."}
{"id": "1093709649", "date": "2022-04-20", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 43, "text": "Richard Thompson, thank you so much for talking with us. It's always such a pleasure to have you on our show and to have an opportunity to play a lot of your music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The publishing company - I think I named it after - a small town in Scotland is called Beeswing. And there's also a Scottish dance tune called \"Beeswing.\" So I think that's where the name came from or"}
{"id": "1093709649", "date": "2022-04-20", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 44, "text": "That's Richard Thompson singing his song \"Beeswing,\" which is also the title of his memoir. It's just been published in paperback. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll talk about Rupert Murdoch, his family and the media empire he created, including Fox News. My guest will be New York Times reporter Jim Rutenberg. He co-wrote a series of investigative articles about how Murdoch's newspapers and TV networks helped create, amplify and profit from the right-wing populist wave in the U.S. and other countries. The series has been adapted into a CNN+ documentary series. I hope you'll join us. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our senior producer today is Sam Briger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Seth Kelley and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I was 19 when I came to town. They called it the summer of love. They were burning babies, burning flags, the hawks against the doves. I took a job in the steamie down on Cauldrum Street, an"}
{"id": "1094248832", "date": "2022-04-22", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 0, "text": "My guest is pianist Jeremy Denk. If you've ever taken music lessons or if you appreciate the insights musicians share about the music they play, I think you'll enjoy what he has to say. He's an acclaimed classical pianist who's also a fine writer with a gift for explaining the structure of the pieces he performs and what makes them technically and emotionally exciting. He's written a new memoir called \"Every Good Boy Does Fine: A Love Story, In Music Lessons.\" The title refers to a phrase children learn when they first start to read music to help them memorize the notes on the five lines of the treble clef. Those notes, E-G-B-D-F, correspond to the first letter of each word in every good boy does fine. The book is about how he learned to play, the teachers who shaped him and what it was like to be a classical prodigy in a world where few kids cared about classical music and some truly hated it. Denk received a MacArthur Fellowship, aka the genius award, and the Avery Fisher Prize. His recording of the \"Goldberg Variations\" reached No. 1 on the Billboard classical chart. His album of compositions by Beethoven and Ligeti was named one of the best discs of the year by The New Yorker, NPR and The Washington Post. In The New York Times, music critic Steve Smith wrote that Denk is a pianist you want to hear, no matter what he performs and that his interpretations conveyed the sense of composers grappling with the ineffable, inventing new vocabulary to express the inexpressible. Jeremy Denk, welcome back to FRESH AIR. It's such a pleasure to have you back on our show. You have a really interesting album from a couple of years ago in which you play piano music from 1300 to 2000. So the album is aptly called \"c.1300-c.2000\"", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. Today we're rebroadcasting Terry's interview with pianist Jeremy Denk. When it aired originally in March, it was preempted on many stations by c"}
{"id": "1094248832", "date": "2022-04-22", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 1, "text": ". So I want to start with a Bach piece from that album. This is Bach's \"Chromatic Fantasy And Fugue In D Minor\" (ph). Can you just say a little bit about why you love this piece and why you chose it for this album?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. Today we're rebroadcasting Terry's interview with pianist Jeremy Denk. When it aired originally in March, it was preempted on many stations by c"}
{"id": "1094248832", "date": "2022-04-22", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 2, "text": "Well, let's hear it. This is Jeremy Denk at the piano.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I love all the pieces of Bach where you get a taste of him maybe improvising and his virtuosity, both as a composer, of course, you know, but as a performer, the sense of touching the keyboa"}
{"id": "1094248832", "date": "2022-04-22", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 3, "text": "That was Jeremy Denk playing the \"Bach: Chromatic Fantasia And Fugue In D Minor.\" So, Jeremy, that's why you have to learn to play scales, right? That's where all", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I love all the pieces of Bach where you get a taste of him maybe improvising and his virtuosity, both as a composer, of course, you know, but as a performer, the sense of touching the keyboa"}
{"id": "1094248832", "date": "2022-04-22", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 4, "text": "... -", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I love all the pieces of Bach where you get a taste of him maybe improvising and his virtuosity, both as a composer, of course, you know, but as a performer, the sense of touching the keyboa"}
{"id": "1094248832", "date": "2022-04-22", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 5, "text": "...All of your work, like, learning scales, learning scales, playing them over, over and over again really pays off because you can just - that is such a complicated piece. But it's built on scales.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1094248832", "date": "2022-04-22", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 6, "text": "Your book is so much about piano lessons. Did you hate it when you had to spend hours and hours earlier in your life playing scales and when - like, some of your teachers didn't even want to play music with you, you know, have you play music for them until you mastered, like, the basics, the scales.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's built on scales. And then there's all these kind of whorls and curls and curlicues and, you know, kind of devilish turns within the scales. But, yes, there was a reason why you had to suffer all "}
{"id": "1094248832", "date": "2022-04-22", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 7, "text": "How did they make it clear to you in a meaningful way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, my teacher when I was in my, you know, early teens - we spent summers basically only on technique with very little music, right? And those were his moments to sort of have me under his control a"}
{"id": "1094248832", "date": "2022-04-22", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 8, "text": "Physical, like in your hands?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, a lot of it, of course, is like you would do with a tennis coach - right? - or whatever. You have to pay attention to physical changes that you have to make. And you have to kind of try to build"}
{"id": "1094248832", "date": "2022-04-22", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 9, "text": "In the piece that we heard - the Bach piece - it's a very complicated piece. You're playing lots of notes in each hand at a rapid speed. And you also have to breathe. And, you know, speaking for myself, when I'm doing something really complicated, I don't think I actually breathe", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Are you going to raise your thumb more? Are you going to bring your second finger down more slowly? Are you going to use your wrist more? Are you going to engage the arm? You know, it could be a"}
{"id": "1094248832", "date": "2022-04-22", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 10, "text": ". Or if I do breathe, it's really shallow breathing. Did you have to learn how to breathe while playing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Are you going to raise your thumb more? Are you going to bring your second finger down more slowly? Are you going to use your wrist more? Are you going to engage the arm? You know, it could be a"}
{"id": "1094248832", "date": "2022-04-22", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 11, "text": "So you mentioned your teacher, Gyorgy Sebok, who was your teacher when you were at Oberlin in your final year there. And he was a pianist from Hungary who'd performed with the top musicians and conductors and would tell you stories about them. What did he teach you about breathing? - 'cause he talked to you about different composers' breaths. I'm not really sure what that means. What did that mean to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Most definitely, I did. And I still do. And one of the beautiful things that Sebok explained that I maybe didn't put in the book - my teacher, Gyorgy Sebok, in Bloomington - was that there is a "}
{"id": "1094248832", "date": "2022-04-22", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 12, "text": "So I want to play another piece. And this piece earlier than the Bach piece that we heard. And this is by Henry Purcell. It's called \"Ground In C Minor.\" It's very beautiful. And it's much more spare than the Bach that we heard. Can you talk about this piece and what it represents in music history and why you love it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know, often palpitating, you know, incredibly intense music. And you have to figure out how to find repose within his, you know, romantic frenzy."}
{"id": "1094248832", "date": "2022-04-22", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 13, "text": "Yeah. It's beautiful. So this is Henry Purcell's \"Ground In C Minor\" performed by my guest, Jeremy Denk.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- you know, this sort of walking bass in relation to some earlier madrigal that I had played on the album. So I don't know if that explains your - it - I think partly I chose it just because I love it"}
{"id": "1094248832", "date": "2022-04-22", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jeremy Denk, the great pianist who has written a new memoir called \"Every Good Boy Does Fine: A Love Story, In Music Lessons.\" Let's talk about your parents and your early lessons. Your mother would be in another room kind of hollering out", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- you know, this sort of walking bass in relation to some earlier madrigal that I had played on the album. So I don't know if that explains your - it - I think partly I chose it just because I love it"}
{"id": "1094248832", "date": "2022-04-22", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 15, "text": "her critique of your playing. You're not the only - people far less talented than you", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- you know, this sort of walking bass in relation to some earlier madrigal that I had played on the album. So I don't know if that explains your - it - I think partly I chose it just because I love it"}
{"id": "1094248832", "date": "2022-04-22", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 16, "text": "experience that, too. So tell us what your mother would yell out to you while you were practicing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- you know, this sort of walking bass in relation to some earlier madrigal that I had played on the album. So I don't know if that explains your - it - I think partly I chose it just because I love it"}
{"id": "1094248832", "date": "2022-04-22", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 17, "text": "While we're talking about your parents' feedback, what did your father have to say about your music when you were young?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, for her, there was a two-tier grading system. Either the music danced, or it didn't dance, you know? So I'd be there in the middle of, you know, practicing something probably for the 10th time a"}
{"id": "1094248832", "date": "2022-04-22", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 18, "text": "You call Beethoven your nemesis when you were", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my father, he'd - both of them loved music, you know? He always wanted me to play this one Bach chorale - one very sad Bach chorale. He - it was called \"Come, Sweet Death.\" And he kept begging m"}
{"id": "1094248832", "date": "2022-04-22", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 19, "text": "- when you were learning to play. Why was he your nemesis?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my father, he'd - both of them loved music, you know? He always wanted me to play this one Bach chorale - one very sad Bach chorale. He - it was called \"Come, Sweet Death.\" And he kept begging m"}
{"id": "1094248832", "date": "2022-04-22", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 20, "text": "Well, you have a Beethoven piece, the \"Piano Sonata No. 32 In C Minor\" on your album of 700 years of music. How would you rate that? And it's a beautiful piece. It's a very percussive and emotional piece. But how would you rate it in terms of Beethoven being your nemesis? Is this a nemesis kind of piece, or is this a relatively easy one for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "trying to climb it without any crampons or whatever. So, you know, I kept bashing my head against the wall of all the impossible things in that piece. And it wasn't until really Sebok, you know, many "}
{"id": "1094248832", "date": "2022-04-22", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 21, "text": "What do you love about this \"Piano Sonata In C Minor\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1094248832", "date": "2022-04-22", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 22, "text": "Well, let's hear it. This is Jeremy Denk at the piano playing Beethoven's \"Piano Sonata No. 32 In C Minor.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Partly also that - it says it's in C minor, but it's really in C minor, then it becomes a C major for the second two-thirds of itself. And, you know, it's like a piece where you have a problem in the "}
{"id": "1094248832", "date": "2022-04-22", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with pianist Jeremy Denk, who is an award-winning pianist, has played with the top orchestras and performers around the world. And he's also a great writer. And he's been published in The New Yorker. He has a blog. And now he has a new memoir, which is called \"Every Good Boy Does Fine: A Love Story, In Music Lessons.\" And it's from his childhood through the age of around 26, when he was studying piano. The first piano you had was from a burlesque house in Atlantic City. Can you describe the piano and how your family ended up owning it?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's Jeremy Denk at the piano from his album \"c.1300-c.2000\" - 700 years of music. His new memoir is called \"Every Good Boy Does Fine.\" We'll hear more of his interview with Terry after a break. Als"}
{"id": "1094248832", "date": "2022-04-22", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 24, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "this piano that he found, that he got, you know, basically for free from a burlesque house in Atlantic City. And it was covered with graffiti - filthy graffiti, honestly."}
{"id": "1094248832", "date": "2022-04-22", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 25, "text": "You write about something called key speed. And you say it's the most important and infuriatingly subtle variable of piano playing. I don't know what it is. What is it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "carved and, you know - various letters - R.F. loves T.K. or whatever and then ladies like it and some other things that I probably shouldn't say on the air. And also, it didn't have wheels, you know? "}
{"id": "1094248832", "date": "2022-04-22", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 26, "text": "You've had so many different teachers over the years. And some of them seem more mean, and some of them seemed more warm in their approach. What were you most receptive to? Like, what kind of feedback did you find helpful, and what kind of feedback did you find just kind of intolerable and would maybe even make you cry?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "awkward and hard to move and mechanical, in many ways. And yet, it responds if you caress it a certain way or just a little bit more urgently, or you play as if you're - as if the key was a hot potato"}
{"id": "1094248832", "date": "2022-04-22", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 27, "text": "Is he the teacher who told you to think about the saddest moment in your life for one piece?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I think I needed different kinds of teachers at different points in my life. I think, you know, one of the reason that I had such difficulty - one of the reasons I had such difficulty with, "}
{"id": "1094248832", "date": "2022-04-22", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 28, "text": "It sounds like the kind of advice you'd give an actor.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. We were playing a Beethoven cello sonata, some movement, and we weren't able to play it together. And he said to me, Jeremy, think of the saddest thing that you've ever felt in your life"}
{"id": "1094248832", "date": "2022-04-22", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 29, "text": "How did he violate it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was very much an actor - yeah, like, a method actor kind of teacher, and I think still is, you know? He's a very active teacher to this day. And he was way too much in a way. He kind of violated my"}
{"id": "1094248832", "date": "2022-04-22", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 30, "text": "Well, it's really been a pleasure to talk with you. And I thank you very much for coming back to our show and for your music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he'd get up in your face, you know, just, like, scream in your face, you know? - more. Or he would just, like, give you this demonic expression when you were trying to play a really difficult pa"}
{"id": "1094248832", "date": "2022-04-22", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 31, "text": "We should end with some Mozart. You have an album of Mozart. That's your most recent album. Do you want to just choose a passage that you especially love?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry, what a pleasure."}
{"id": "1094248832", "date": "2022-04-22", "guest": "Jeremy Denk", "title": "For classical pianist Jeremy Denk, life is like a series of music lessons", "question_index": 32, "text": "Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I'd choose the sort of middle of the last movement of 503. This is one of the - for me, one of the most beautiful passages that Mozart ever wrote, the middle of the rondo of his concerto in C "}
{"id": "1096099918", "date": "2022-05-03", "guest": "Alexander Burns", "title": "Republicans suggested invoking the 25th Amendment after Jan. 6 \u2014 but failed to act", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. You know the audiotapes recently released of House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy recorded in the days after the attack on the Capitol? In a January 10 recorded phone call, McCarthy said he was thinking of asking Trump to resign. In another part of the call, McCarthy expressed his concern about extremist rhetoric from Republican lawmakers and said he didn't want to look back and think, quote, \"we caused something or we missed something and someone got hurt.\" Those tapes and more were obtained by my guests, Jonathan Martin and Alexander Burns, as part of their reporting for their new book, \"This Will Not Pass: Trump, Biden, And The Battle For America's Future.\" They describe their book as being in part about how telling Trump what he wanted to hear became a way of life for an entire political party and how the gulf between what Republican leaders said privately about Trump and their public deference had gone unchallenged for half a decade. Martin and Burns are national correspondent for The New York Times and political analysts for CNN. Our interview was recorded yesterday. Jonathan Martin, Alex Burns, welcome to FRESH AIR. I want to start with one of the tapes, and this is part of the phone call on January 10 with House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy, Steve Scalise, the second-ranking House Republican, and Liz Cheney, the House member who has stood firm in her denunciation of Trump's behavior and is serving on the House Select Committee investigating January 6. Also on the call is Representative Tom Emmer of Minnesota, head of the Republican House Campaign Committee. And a number of aides are on the call as well. So set the scene. What's the context for this phone call?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1096099918", "date": "2022-05-03", "guest": "Alexander Burns", "title": "Republicans suggested invoking the 25th Amendment after Jan. 6 \u2014 but failed to act", "question_index": 1, "text": "This clip starts with Liz Cheney, referring to part of the conversation about the 25th Amendment, which would mean removing Trump by invoking the 25th Amendment. And the tape actually starts with Kevin McCarthy just making sure that Liz Cheney is on the phone. After Liz Cheney asks about the 25th Amendment, Kevin McCarthy starts talking about impeachment and whether it will pass. So here's the tape.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, this is a few days after the January 6 attack, and the Capitol is still in shock. The Congress is still recovering from violent assault on the seat of American government. Washington is in a qu"}
{"id": "1096099918", "date": "2022-05-03", "guest": "Alexander Burns", "title": "Republicans suggested invoking the 25th Amendment after Jan. 6 \u2014 but failed to act", "question_index": 2, "text": "So McCarthy was saying in this tape that he was thinking of calling Trump and recommending that he resign. What is the significance of hearing McCarthy say that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've had a few discussions. My gut tells me no. I'm seriously thinking of having that conversation with him tonight. I haven't talked to him in a couple days. From what I know of him - I mean, you guy"}
{"id": "1096099918", "date": "2022-05-03", "guest": "Alexander Burns", "title": "Republicans suggested invoking the 25th Amendment after Jan. 6 \u2014 but failed to act", "question_index": 3, "text": "The tape that we just heard starts with Liz Cheney referring back to the 25th Amendment. Had they been discussing in an early part of the call invoking the 25th Amendment to remove Trump from office?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It illustrates how desperate the Republican Party was in this period, the days and hours after the attack of January 6, and how they saw President Trump as a potentially fatal political liability for "}
{"id": "1096099918", "date": "2022-05-03", "guest": "Alexander Burns", "title": "Republicans suggested invoking the 25th Amendment after Jan. 6 \u2014 but failed to act", "question_index": 4, "text": "And although McCarthy says that he's considering calling Trump and telling him he should resign, McCarthy never follows through on that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, it's one of several options that they have discussed on this call or that they're about to discuss on this call. You know, after he initially lied and said that he didn't say anything like this"}
{"id": "1096099918", "date": "2022-05-03", "guest": "Alexander Burns", "title": "Republicans suggested invoking the 25th Amendment after Jan. 6 \u2014 but failed to act", "question_index": 5, "text": "What do you think Trump meant by that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. McCarthy has said publicly in the aftermath of this tape being released that he did not call President Trump and urge him to resign. And we spoke to President Trump at Mar-a-Lago in April of 20"}
{"id": "1096099918", "date": "2022-05-03", "guest": "Alexander Burns", "title": "Republicans suggested invoking the 25th Amendment after Jan. 6 \u2014 but failed to act", "question_index": 6, "text": "Well, let's hear another tape. And this is from the days after January 6, and this is Kevin McCarthy talking about Trump and saying that he'd asked Trump if he felt responsible for the attack on the Capitol. So is there anything you want to say to set the scene for this call?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that he views Kevin McCarthy as a weak individual, somebody who is more of a supplicant than a peer. And look - Donald Trump preys on weakness, and he relishes the opportunity to humiliate peo"}
{"id": "1096099918", "date": "2022-05-03", "guest": "Alexander Burns", "title": "Republicans suggested invoking the 25th Amendment after Jan. 6 \u2014 but failed to act", "question_index": 7, "text": "OK, so here's the tape.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, this is a conversation with a much, much larger group of Republican lawmakers. So the call that we just heard was on January 10, and it was just with the senior team of Republican leaders in th"}
{"id": "1096099918", "date": "2022-05-03", "guest": "Alexander Burns", "title": "Republicans suggested invoking the 25th Amendment after Jan. 6 \u2014 but failed to act", "question_index": 8, "text": "What do you think is the significance of what McCarthy is saying there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But let me be very clear to all of you, and I've been very clear to the president. He bears responsibility for his words and actions - no ifs, ands or buts. I asked him personally today, does he hold "}
{"id": "1096099918", "date": "2022-05-03", "guest": "Alexander Burns", "title": "Republicans suggested invoking the 25th Amendment after Jan. 6 \u2014 but failed to act", "question_index": 9, "text": "You know, my impression of these tapes is that they're recorded at a time when lawmakers are still feeling the fear of January 6, hearing gunshots, knowing that the whole Capitol's being attacked, that they have to be evacuated, that their lives are in jeopardy. And once that fear just kind of slowly vanishes over time, then it's kind of business as usual. Is that your impression?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, I would make two points. One, you can tell he's talking to the larger audience of the entire House GOP conference because of the tone he's taking and the way he's delivering that presentation. "}
{"id": "1096099918", "date": "2022-05-03", "guest": "Alexander Burns", "title": "Republicans suggested invoking the 25th Amendment after Jan. 6 \u2014 but failed to act", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, I want to ask you more about that, but first, we have to take a break. Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guests are Jonathan Martin and Alexander Burns, authors of the new book \"This Will Not Pass: Trump, Biden, And The Battle For America's Future.\" They're both national correspondents from The New York Times. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, I think I would present that a little bit differently in that the sense of urgency, at least among Republicans, that something had to be done about Donald Trump does fade. And for some of them,"}
{"id": "1096099918", "date": "2022-05-03", "guest": "Alexander Burns", "title": "Republicans suggested invoking the 25th Amendment after Jan. 6 \u2014 but failed to act", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Jonathan Martin and Alexander Burns, national correspondents for The New York Times and authors of the new book \"This Will Not Pass: Trump, Biden, And The Battle For America's Future.\" Well, you're talking about how there's still a lot of fear in Congress about the hostility being directed at lawmakers and that they - some of them need protection. They've been threatened. So this leads to another tape that you released, and this is Kevin McCarthy in that same phone call that we started with, with Liz Cheney and Steve Scalise. And he's talking about his concern about Republican lawmakers' rhetoric. Do you want to set up this call before we hear the excerpt?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, I think I would present that a little bit differently in that the sense of urgency, at least among Republicans, that something had to be done about Donald Trump does fade. And for some of them,"}
{"id": "1096099918", "date": "2022-05-03", "guest": "Alexander Burns", "title": "Republicans suggested invoking the 25th Amendment after Jan. 6 \u2014 but failed to act", "question_index": 12, "text": "OK. So here's Kevin McCarthy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So this is important to note that he's speaking to the small group of just House GOP leaders, not the full conference. So he's much more candid. He's not, you know, evidently reading from written talk"}
{"id": "1096099918", "date": "2022-05-03", "guest": "Alexander Burns", "title": "Republicans suggested invoking the 25th Amendment after Jan. 6 \u2014 but failed to act", "question_index": 13, "text": "What's kind of ironic here is he's in part trying to protect his own House members, including Liz Cheney. But then the Republicans turn on Liz Cheney. They strip her of her leadership position. They create a lot of hatred toward Liz Cheney.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The other thing that we have to do is these members on either - whatever position you are, calling out other members, that stuff's got to stop, especially in this nature. So when I get off right here,"}
{"id": "1096099918", "date": "2022-05-03", "guest": "Alexander Burns", "title": "Republicans suggested invoking the 25th Amendment after Jan. 6 \u2014 but failed to act", "question_index": 14, "text": "So they cast out Liz Cheney. Meanwhile, you know, McCarthy is saying in this tape he's afraid someone's going to get hurt. He doesn't want to play politics with any of this. And then he lets go of a lot of extremist talk. He just - at least not that we know of, he doesn't call people out for it. Like you say, he opposed a resolution to censure Paul Gosar and remove him from committee assignments. He ignored a remark by Mo Brooks last year after a man was arrested in connection with a bomb threat to the Capitol. And Brooks said that he understood citizens' anger directed at dictatorial socialism and its threat to liberty, freedom and the very fabric of American anxiety. So Mo Brooks of Alabama is basically saying, yeah, I understand this guy's bomb threat to the Capitol.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And one of the reasons why we wanted to spend so much time reporting this book in 2021 instead of, you know, racing to turn it in after the campaign is because it was our bet, Terry, that there "}
{"id": "1096099918", "date": "2022-05-03", "guest": "Alexander Burns", "title": "Republicans suggested invoking the 25th Amendment after Jan. 6 \u2014 but failed to act", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well, let's take a break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guests are Jonathan Martin and Alexander Burns, authors of the new book \"This Will Not Pass: Trump, Biden, And The Battle For America's Future.\" They're both national correspondents for The New York Times. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, Terry, that one is so particularly important because Mo Brooks is a repeat offender. He is one of the lawmakers who addresses the rally on the National Mall on January 6 and tells them it's time "}
{"id": "1096099918", "date": "2022-05-03", "guest": "Alexander Burns", "title": "Republicans suggested invoking the 25th Amendment after Jan. 6 \u2014 but failed to act", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Jonathan Martin and Alexander Burns, two national correspondents for The New York Times. Their new book, \"This Will Not Pass: Trump, Biden And The Battle For America's Future,\" covers the period of two years from the onset of the coronavirus pandemic through the legislative battles of the new Biden administration. The book was published today but made news even before publication because the authors released audio recordings from the days after the attack on the Capitol of House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy saying he was thinking of asking Trump to resign and that he was concerned that the extremist rhetoric of some Republican lawmakers could end up getting people hurt. So after McCarthy seemed so outraged about the attack on the Capitol and Trump's partial responsibility for it, when it came to actually voting on impeachment, McCarthy voted against it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, Terry, that one is so particularly important because Mo Brooks is a repeat offender. He is one of the lawmakers who addresses the rally on the National Mall on January 6 and tells them it's time "}
{"id": "1096099918", "date": "2022-05-03", "guest": "Alexander Burns", "title": "Republicans suggested invoking the 25th Amendment after Jan. 6 \u2014 but failed to act", "question_index": 17, "text": "There are members in the House, in the Republican Party, who are very motivated by ideology or by conspiracy theories. You characterize McCarthy as being motivated by power. This is all about that he wants to become the House speaker if the Republicans gain control of the House in the midterms.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He did, and so does the overwhelming majority of the House Republican Conference. And this is a crucial moment, too, where, you know, McCarthy, on the eve of that vote, indicates to Republicans that, "}
{"id": "1096099918", "date": "2022-05-03", "guest": "Alexander Burns", "title": "Republicans suggested invoking the 25th Amendment after Jan. 6 \u2014 but failed to act", "question_index": 18, "text": "We've talked about Kevin McCarthy, House minority leader. Let's talk about Mitch McConnell, Senate minority leader. Now, you don't have recordings of him that - at least not ones that you can make public. So let's talk about some of the things you've written about. You say that he established a back channel with Joe Biden after the election. Why did he need a back channel as opposed to more open communications?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Let me just talk about Kevin McCarthy for a minute because I think some of your listeners may be more familiar with Mitch McConnell, who, of course, is a longer-serving and more prominent member"}
{"id": "1096099918", "date": "2022-05-03", "guest": "Alexander Burns", "title": "Republicans suggested invoking the 25th Amendment after Jan. 6 \u2014 but failed to act", "question_index": 19, "text": "It's just so interesting how politics is superseding democracy. Political interests are superseding the democratic procedures that are standard in the United States.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, Terry, this is a really interesting and fateful period in the transfer of power, where immediately after the November election is called in Joe Biden's favor - the Saturday after Election Day - Mi"}
{"id": "1096099918", "date": "2022-05-03", "guest": "Alexander Burns", "title": "Republicans suggested invoking the 25th Amendment after Jan. 6 \u2014 but failed to act", "question_index": 20, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you both here. If you're just joining us, my guests are Jonathan Martin and Alexander Burns, authors of the new book \"This Will Not Pass: Trump, Biden, And The Battle For America's Future.\" They're both national correspondents for The New York Times. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I think, Terry, that's one of the most consistent and central themes of this book, is that at so many of the crucial junctures in the democratic process over the last two years, what the people in"}
{"id": "1096099918", "date": "2022-05-03", "guest": "Alexander Burns", "title": "Republicans suggested invoking the 25th Amendment after Jan. 6 \u2014 but failed to act", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Jonathan Martin and Alexander Burns, national correspondents for The New York Times and authors of the new book \"This Will Not Pass: Trump, Biden, And The Battle For America's Future.\" Jonathan, you were in a pretty unique position while reporting this book. On January 6, you were at the Capitol. You were there when the Capitol was attacked. And you evacuated, along with people from Congress, and hid out together. And you observed during that process and right after it things that were very useful for this book. So let's start with something - with an encounter that you had with Mitch McConnell. And this is right after the certification of the election. So they hadn't gone home yet. You know, they were just like they were they were hiding. And then they went back to the chamber and voted. And after the vote - so this is like the wee hours in January 7, like, really early in the morning, after midnight. And you're at the elevator, and you run into Mitch McConnell there. And he tells you that he's disgusted with Trump. Tell us about that conversation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I think, Terry, that's one of the most consistent and central themes of this book, is that at so many of the crucial junctures in the democratic process over the last two years, what the people in"}
{"id": "1096099918", "date": "2022-05-03", "guest": "Alexander Burns", "title": "Republicans suggested invoking the 25th Amendment after Jan. 6 \u2014 but failed to act", "question_index": 22, "text": "You quote McConnell as having said, \"if this isn't impeachable, I don't know what is.\" But he didn't vote to convict Trump in the Senate.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "McConnell was leaving the Capitol early on the morning of January 7 after what was probably the most wrenching day of his career in Congress and probably the most wrenching day of his history in the U"}
{"id": "1096099918", "date": "2022-05-03", "guest": "Alexander Burns", "title": "Republicans suggested invoking the 25th Amendment after Jan. 6 \u2014 but failed to act", "question_index": 23, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guests are Jonathan Martin and Alexander Burns, authors of the new book \"This Will Not Pass: Trump, Biden And The Battle For America's Future.\" They're both national correspondents for The New York Times. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So this is now Monday, January 11. And McConnell is back in Kentucky. He's in Louisville. And he's having lunch, having a Chick-Fil-A takeout lunch in the office of one of his advisers. And McConnell "}
{"id": "1096099918", "date": "2022-05-03", "guest": "Alexander Burns", "title": "Republicans suggested invoking the 25th Amendment after Jan. 6 \u2014 but failed to act", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Jonathan Martin and Alexander Burns, national correspondents for The New York Times and authors of the new book \"This Will Not Pass: Trump Biden And The Battle For America's Future.\" I want to get back to the fact that, Jonathan Martin, you were at the Capitol on January 6. And you were in the room with lawmakers when they were evacuated from the Capitol and escorted through the tunnels through - to a room in another office building. And while you were there with a lot of Democratic and Republican lawmakers, you overheard Lindsey Graham talking - well, actually, kind of hollering at a Capitol police officer. Tell us what was going on and what Lindsey Graham said.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So this is now Monday, January 11. And McConnell is back in Kentucky. He's in Louisville. And he's having lunch, having a Chick-Fil-A takeout lunch in the office of one of his advisers. And McConnell "}
{"id": "1096099918", "date": "2022-05-03", "guest": "Alexander Burns", "title": "Republicans suggested invoking the 25th Amendment after Jan. 6 \u2014 but failed to act", "question_index": 25, "text": "So Lindsey Graham gets White House counsel Pat Cipollone on the phone and says, if Trump doesn't tell the rioters to go home, Lindsey Graham is going to call for the 25th Amendment, to remove Trump from office. But after all this quiets down and things start to return to some sense of normalcy, Lindsey Graham's back in Donald Trump's court again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So we have to understand the moment. There is uncertainty verging on chaos because the Capitol has been overrun. And these senators are seeing images on their phone of people marauding in the Capitol,"}
{"id": "1096099918", "date": "2022-05-03", "guest": "Alexander Burns", "title": "Republicans suggested invoking the 25th Amendment after Jan. 6 \u2014 but failed to act", "question_index": 26, "text": "Oh", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That same afternoon, he does call Cipollone and threatens the 25th Amendment because if you recall, Trump had taped a couple of videos in which he was purportedly telling the rioters to leave th"}
{"id": "1096099918", "date": "2022-05-03", "guest": "Alexander Burns", "title": "Republicans suggested invoking the 25th Amendment after Jan. 6 \u2014 but failed to act", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That same afternoon, he does call Cipollone and threatens the 25th Amendment because if you recall, Trump had taped a couple of videos in which he was purportedly telling the rioters to leave th"}
{"id": "1096099918", "date": "2022-05-03", "guest": "Alexander Burns", "title": "Republicans suggested invoking the 25th Amendment after Jan. 6 \u2014 but failed to act", "question_index": 28, "text": "You know, what you said about this climate of fear and distrust, that leads me back to the tapes that you released of Kevin McCarthy. I mean, somebody - I'm not going to ask you who your source is. Obviously, you're not going to be able to say. But the fact that there are tapes and they were leaked to you screams to me atmosphere of distrust. So are a lot of people that you know, without mentioning names, have they been taping conversations to protect themselves or to be used against the person who they think is either harming the country or might harm them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it doesn't end there because a few hours later, we spoke to Graham separately on the phone after we left Mar-a-Largo, and Graham was much more candid about Trump, talking about his relationship and"}
{"id": "1096099918", "date": "2022-05-03", "guest": "Alexander Burns", "title": "Republicans suggested invoking the 25th Amendment after Jan. 6 \u2014 but failed to act", "question_index": 29, "text": "Well, Jonathan Martin, Alex Burns - thank you so much for joining us on the show. And thank you for your reporting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it's not always tapes, but certainly there are ample contemporaneous records of so many of these crucial moments. And one of our real priorities in reporting this book was to try to gather as muc"}
{"id": "1096099918", "date": "2022-05-03", "guest": "Alexander Burns", "title": "Republicans suggested invoking the 25th Amendment after Jan. 6 \u2014 but failed to act", "question_index": 30, "text": "Jonathan Martin and Alexander Burns are the authors of the new book \"This Will Not Pass: Trump, Biden, And The Battle For America's Future.\" They're both national correspondents from The New York Times. Our interview was recorded yesterday. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, my guest will be Swedish actor Alexander Skarsgard, star of the new Viking epic film \"The Northman.\" He played a vampire who had been a Viking in HBO's \"True Blood.\" More recently, he played a tech billionaire in \"Succession\" and an abusive husband in \"Big Little Lies.\" \"The Northman\" is violent and bloody, but Skarsgard is from a pacifist family. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks, Terry."}
{"id": "1096099918", "date": "2022-05-03", "guest": "Alexander Burns", "title": "Republicans suggested invoking the 25th Amendment after Jan. 6 \u2014 but failed to act", "question_index": 31, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks, Terry."}
{"id": "1096617455", "date": "2022-05-05", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "Journalist says Britain has become a safe deposit box for oligarchs' ill-gotten gains", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Russia can afford its war in Ukraine because Britain helped raise the cash, writes my guest Oliver Bullough. He's referring to how Russian oligarchs linked to Putin launder their money, keep it hidden in shell companies and stash it in luxury yachts and mansions in Britain. There are so many Russian-owned mansions in London it's been nicknamed Londongrad. Bullough says the Russian state would have nothing like the wealth it has now without Britain's help. England, the U.S. and several other Western countries have sanctioned some oligarchs, but Bullough says they're not changing the financial systems that enable oligarchs and criminals to protect their ill-gotten gains. Bullough has spent years investigating how kleptocrats hide and protect their money. His second book on the subject will be published in the U.S. in June. It's called \"Butler To The World: How Britain Helps The World's Worst People Launder Money, Commit Crimes, And Get Away With Anything.\" Among the things he's known for is giving kleptocracy tours in London, pointing out the mansions and apartments owned by oligarchs. Bullough is a British journalist and spent the early part of his career reporting from Russia and covering the war in Chechnya. Oliver Bullough, welcome back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1096617455", "date": "2022-05-05", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "Journalist says Britain has become a safe deposit box for oligarchs' ill-gotten gains", "question_index": 1, "text": "Can you explain how the money that Russian oligarchs have stashed in England is helping Russia pay for the war, is helping Putin pay for the war?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for inviting me back. It's an absolute pleasure."}
{"id": "1096617455", "date": "2022-05-05", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "Journalist says Britain has become a safe deposit box for oligarchs' ill-gotten gains", "question_index": 2, "text": "So here's what I don't understand. If the Russian oligarchs have taken their ill-gotten money and stashed it in England to keep it out of sight and to keep it out of reach, how is that money helping to fund Putin's war in Ukraine?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this is a, on the face of it, complicated question in that they make it complicated. You know, the money is hidden by multiple layers of shell companies in multiple jurisdictions. But it all com"}
{"id": "1096617455", "date": "2022-05-05", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "Journalist says Britain has become a safe deposit box for oligarchs' ill-gotten gains", "question_index": 3, "text": "Well, what are the possible penalties if an oligarch criticizes Putin in public and speaks out against the war? Like, what might the penalties be? Can Putin, like, confiscate the business and turn it into a state-run business?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's not so much that that money, per se, is funding Putin's war in Ukraine; it is the system that they have built, essentially, in order to steal that money so that the system that they have built, t"}
{"id": "1096617455", "date": "2022-05-05", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "Journalist says Britain has become a safe deposit box for oligarchs' ill-gotten gains", "question_index": 4, "text": "So we've been talking about Russian oligarchs. What about Putin himself? Does he have money stashed in England in secret accounts or real estate or whatever?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we saw this with Oleg Tinkov, who is an interesting sort of serial entrepreneur who's done various things. He had a beer company. When I lived in Russia, his Tinkov beer was some of the best Rus"}
{"id": "1096617455", "date": "2022-05-05", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "Journalist says Britain has become a safe deposit box for oligarchs' ill-gotten gains", "question_index": 5, "text": "So you're talking about Putin calling on the wealth of the oligarchs to use as he pleases when he wants it. I mean, do you think he's been doing that with the war?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is a really interesting question. I have a good friend called Bradley Hope, who is a journalist who - and I talk about this with him quite often because it's very interesting 'cause it cuts to th"}
{"id": "1096617455", "date": "2022-05-05", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "Journalist says Britain has become a safe deposit box for oligarchs' ill-gotten gains", "question_index": 6, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is British journalist Oliver Bullough. And his new book, which will be published in the U.S. in June, is called \"Butler To The World: How Britain Helps The World's Worst People Launder Money, Commit Crimes, And Get Away With Anything.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I think, at the moment, it seems absolutely certain that he has been calling on them in all sorts of ways. I mean, the sanctions being put - that have been placed on Russia have been far, far mor"}
{"id": "1096617455", "date": "2022-05-05", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "Journalist says Britain has become a safe deposit box for oligarchs' ill-gotten gains", "question_index": 7, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is British journalist Oliver Bullough. And for years, he's been investigating how oligarchs and other kleptocrats hide and launder their money in Britain. His new book on the subject, which will be published in the U.S. in June, is called \"Butler To The World: How Britain Helps The World's Worst People Launder Money, Commit Crimes, And Get Away With Anything.\" Let's talk money. Give us a sense of how much Russian oligarch money is hidden in assets in England and in mansions and yachts and shell companies, other assets.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I think, at the moment, it seems absolutely certain that he has been calling on them in all sorts of ways. I mean, the sanctions being put - that have been placed on Russia have been far, far mor"}
{"id": "1096617455", "date": "2022-05-05", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "Journalist says Britain has become a safe deposit box for oligarchs' ill-gotten gains", "question_index": 8, "text": "Alexei Navalny, the opposition leader in Russia, released a list of 35 men and women who are Putin's enablers. Now, Putin had Navalny poisoned twice. And when Navalny survived, Putin put him in prison, where he is today. So he kind of secretly released this list from prison. Has that list been helpful to you as a, you know, investigative journalist?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Once again, you've asked an extremely complicated question, in fact, one that I'm not sure that there is an answer to. Part of the problem is that money that is Russian, how long does it remain Russia"}
{"id": "1096617455", "date": "2022-05-05", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "Journalist says Britain has become a safe deposit box for oligarchs' ill-gotten gains", "question_index": 9, "text": "Before we get to the larger system that enables the kleptocrats to stash their money in other countries, with an emphasis on England, let's talk a little bit about the sanctions against the oligarchs. The U.S. has created sanctions. Britain has created sanctions. From your perspective, which sanctions have actually been most effective?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There are quite a lot of these lists going around. And the system is what I am most concerned about, rather than the individuals. You know, I think it's possible to condemn the individuals, but if we "}
{"id": "1096617455", "date": "2022-05-05", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "Journalist says Britain has become a safe deposit box for oligarchs' ill-gotten gains", "question_index": 10, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is journalist Oliver Bullough, and he spent years investigating how kleptocrats hide and protect their money in England. And his second book on the subject will be published in the U.S. in June. It's called \"Butler To The World: How Britain Helps The World's Worst People Launder Money, Commit Crimes, And Get Away With Anything.\" We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, obviously, the - from a perspective of committing (ph) individual oligarchs, just freezing their wealth has been dramatic and effective, has clearly driven a lot of oligarchs out of Britain an"}
{"id": "1096617455", "date": "2022-05-05", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "Journalist says Britain has become a safe deposit box for oligarchs' ill-gotten gains", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're talking about how Russian oligarchs have parked a lot of their money in Britain over the years and how that's helped Putin, including helping Putin launch the war in Ukraine. My guest is Oliver Bullough, and he's spent years investigating how kleptocrats hide and protect their money. His second book on the subject will be published in the U.S. in June. It's called \"Butler To The World: How Britain Helps The World's Worst People Launder Money, Commit Crimes, And Get Away With Anything.\" He's a contributor to the British paper The Guardian. So let's talk a little bit about the system that enables oligarchs to hide and launder money in England. And you trace this back to 1956. When Britain lost control of the Suez Canal - a very important trade route - they lost control to Egypt, which took over the canal. Why was that so disruptive to Britain that it created parts of, like, a new financial system?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, obviously, the - from a perspective of committing (ph) individual oligarchs, just freezing their wealth has been dramatic and effective, has clearly driven a lot of oligarchs out of Britain an"}
{"id": "1096617455", "date": "2022-05-05", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "Journalist says Britain has become a safe deposit box for oligarchs' ill-gotten gains", "question_index": 12, "text": "I know you think that reforming the financial system in England that allows oligarchs to stash money there is, in the long run, more important than singling out individual oligarchs and freezing their money. So let's talk about that system. What are some of the basic ingredients of the system that allows kleptocrats to safely store and launder money?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's a really important moment. I mean, the Suez crisis is, you know, one of the most important moments in modern British history, a real nadir of British influence, you know, one of the final s"}
{"id": "1096617455", "date": "2022-05-05", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "Journalist says Britain has become a safe deposit box for oligarchs' ill-gotten gains", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well - and you also write, like, a whole industry that surrounds helping the kleptocrats who store their money in England, helping them do it. And you alluded to this - the lawyers who defend them, the banks that help them. What else?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, we hide wealth behind shell companies to disguise the ownership. We protect wealth. We protect it from scrutiny by, you know, suing people who would look into it or suing journalists w"}
{"id": "1096617455", "date": "2022-05-05", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "Journalist says Britain has become a safe deposit box for oligarchs' ill-gotten gains", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, it can be very perilous to be an investigative journalist in England investigating the oligarchs because the oligarchs can sue. And the libel laws in England are different than the ones in the U.S. and they tend to favor the oligarchs over the journalists. Can you explain how the law tends to favor the oligarchs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One subject I've been writing about recently, which is sort of at the forefront of my mind as a result, is lawyers who use data protection rules to sue journalists and private investigators who might "}
{"id": "1096617455", "date": "2022-05-05", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "Journalist says Britain has become a safe deposit box for oligarchs' ill-gotten gains", "question_index": 15, "text": "How much of a chilling effect has the fear of lawsuits had on your reporting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. We don't have a sort of First Amendment right of free speech here. So, yeah, essentially, if you write about someone - anyone but normally someone who can afford a lawyer - they have the right t"}
{"id": "1096617455", "date": "2022-05-05", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "Journalist says Britain has become a safe deposit box for oligarchs' ill-gotten gains", "question_index": 16, "text": "When did you start to feel that the oligarchs were paying close attention to what you said and that you had to be really careful?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it does. I mean, I notice it when I'm talking, to be honest. I'm constantly trying to think, you know, 20 seconds ahead of what I'm saying to make sure that I'm not about to say anything which w"}
{"id": "1096617455", "date": "2022-05-05", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "Journalist says Britain has become a safe deposit box for oligarchs' ill-gotten gains", "question_index": 17, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is British journalist Oliver Bullough. And his new book, which will be published in the U.S. in June, is called \"Butler To The World: How Britain Helps The World's Worst People Launder Money, Commit Crimes, And Get Away With Anything.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, there's been a couple of times when I've been hacked by - clearly in response to particular things I've said or written. There's been some pretty alarming communications that I've received in "}
{"id": "1096617455", "date": "2022-05-05", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "Journalist says Britain has become a safe deposit box for oligarchs' ill-gotten gains", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, my guest is British journalist Oliver Bullough. And for years, he's been investigating how oligarchs and other kleptocrats hide and launder their money in Britain. His new book on the subject, which will be published in the U.S. in June, is called \"Butler To The World: How Britain Helps The World's Worst People Launder Money, Commit Crimes, And Get Away With Anything.\" For an oligarch to sue a journalist, I think they have to prove that the journalist tarnished the oligarch's reputation. So I think the way you explain it is that the oligarchs often start donating large amounts of money to charities and, you know, good works and stuff to build a reputation that they can then say was tarnished by the journalist.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, there's been a couple of times when I've been hacked by - clearly in response to particular things I've said or written. There's been some pretty alarming communications that I've received in "}
{"id": "1096617455", "date": "2022-05-05", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "Journalist says Britain has become a safe deposit box for oligarchs' ill-gotten gains", "question_index": 19, "text": "So the people who help support the oligarchs in protecting the oligarchs' reputation and protecting their money, do those people like the lawyers, like the PR people, do they make a lot of money off of the oligarchs? And because those British people who make money off the oligarchs are powerful, and this is a very profitable business, does that help bolster the system and prevent it from being reformed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. This is a whole separate industry here in the U.K., a sort of reputation-management industry whereby - and there is, you know, a fairly well-trodden path that many oligarchs have trodden when th"}
{"id": "1096617455", "date": "2022-05-05", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "Journalist says Britain has become a safe deposit box for oligarchs' ill-gotten gains", "question_index": 20, "text": "I think the City of London has independent banking rules from the rest of Britain. Is that right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That's an entire class of very well networked and, you know, well wealthy enablers, particularly in London, I mean, elsewhere as well, but mainly in London who, you know, who use their connectio"}
{"id": "1096617455", "date": "2022-05-05", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "Journalist says Britain has become a safe deposit box for oligarchs' ill-gotten gains", "question_index": 21, "text": "So how does that - how has that contributed to making London an attractive place for oligarchs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sort of. The British - City of London is a really fascinating place. I'm thinking of writing my next book about it. But it has its own kind of autonomy while also not really having its own autonomy. S"}
{"id": "1096617455", "date": "2022-05-05", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "Journalist says Britain has become a safe deposit box for oligarchs' ill-gotten gains", "question_index": 22, "text": "You're very critical of the regulatory system in England and basically say that there isn't a body that's responsible for investigating crime within the banking system.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the City of London's role that it's been playing since the 1950s, as I was talking about before, is essentially as a sort of - it's a bit like Wall Street, but with less regulations. That's its "}
{"id": "1096617455", "date": "2022-05-05", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "Journalist says Britain has become a safe deposit box for oligarchs' ill-gotten gains", "question_index": 23, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is journalist Oliver Bullough. He's the author of the new book \"Butler To The World: How Britain Helps The World's Worst People Launder Money, Commit Crimes, And Get Away With Anything.\" It will be published in the U.S. in June. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, we have sort of regulatory and police agencies, but they're sort of hilariously underfunded. My favorite example is the fact that one of the many anti-money laundering regulators here is"}
{"id": "1096617455", "date": "2022-05-05", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "Journalist says Britain has become a safe deposit box for oligarchs' ill-gotten gains", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with journalist Oliver Bullough, who's a contributor to the British paper The Guardian. He's been investigating for years how Russian oligarchs hide and launder their money in Britain, and lately, he's been writing about how that's helping fund Russia's war in Ukraine. His second book about how kleptocrats hide their money is going to be published in June in the U.S. It's called \"Butler To The World: How Britain Helps The World's Worst People Launder Money, Commit Crimes, And Get Away With Anything.\" As we've said, you think that there not only needs to be sanctions against the oligarchs, that the British financial system needs to be reformed so that it's no longer easy for oligarchs and other kleptocrats to hide or launder money there. Has Russia's war on Ukraine led to any reforms or proposals of reforms?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, we have sort of regulatory and police agencies, but they're sort of hilariously underfunded. My favorite example is the fact that one of the many anti-money laundering regulators here is"}
{"id": "1096617455", "date": "2022-05-05", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "Journalist says Britain has become a safe deposit box for oligarchs' ill-gotten gains", "question_index": 25, "text": "So, you know, you've said it's not enough to sanction the oligarchs, that Britain has to reform the system that enables the oligarchs to hide or launder their money in Britain. And this week, Britain seemed to take a step forward on that, announcing that British accounting, management consulting and PR firms will be banned from doing business in Russia with Russian firms. Would you describe what this is, what this new ban is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There has been a bit of action, actually. Last month, there was the - an economic crime act. It's a pretty scanty measure, actually. But it did - the idea, anyway, is that it imposes transparency on p"}
{"id": "1096617455", "date": "2022-05-05", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "Journalist says Britain has become a safe deposit box for oligarchs' ill-gotten gains", "question_index": 26, "text": "I'm still - like, I'm not sure how this would work. In other words, so are these firms banned from doing business in Russia? Or what about if you're a Russian oligarch who occasionally is in Britain and you want some help from a PR firm - how does that work? Are they banned from that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is a step forward. It's positive. The stated justification for this measure was that these firms helping Russians to structure their businesses are helping fund the Russian war machine. So the fa"}
{"id": "1096617455", "date": "2022-05-05", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "Journalist says Britain has become a safe deposit box for oligarchs' ill-gotten gains", "question_index": 27, "text": "Well, Oliver Bullough, I want to thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You ask a good question. I mean, I've read the statement and looked at it. Sadly, over the last couple of months, Britain has been quite good at announcing gimmicky measures against the Russians. Tech"}
{"id": "1096617455", "date": "2022-05-05", "guest": "Oliver Bullough", "title": "Journalist says Britain has become a safe deposit box for oligarchs' ill-gotten gains", "question_index": 28, "text": "Oliver Bullough is the author of the new book \"Butler To The World.\" If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed - like this week's interviews with actor Alexander Skarsgard, who stars in the new film \"The Northman,\" or New York Times reporters Jonathan Martin and Alexander Burns, who got the leaked audiotapes revealing what House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy had to say in private after January 6 - check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. Oh, and I want to remind you to check out the new FRESH AIR newsletter. The link to sign up is on our website at freshair.npr.org. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with help today from Diana Martinez. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Seth Kelley and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much for having me on. It's been my pleasure."}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 0, "text": "Pamela Adlon, welcome to FRESH AIR, and congratulations on Season 3 of \"Better Things.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 1, "text": "So this season, everyone is going through a change. Like you say, you know, your oldest is going to college. The middle's in puberty. Your youngest is being bullied at school. Your character's mother seems to be in the early stages of dementia. Your character's going through menopause. Are these the personal issues you've been dealing with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much, Terry."}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 2, "text": "I think women over the years have been very uncomfortable talking about getting older, maybe because - I think a lot of women feel devalued with age, and they're no longer considered sexual. So how did you feel about putting it out there, about crossing the threshold of 50?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I say this about my show - that it's an exaggerated version of my life. So it's like Sam Fox is me in a cape. You know, certainly I'm in a multi-generational situation with all women in my l"}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 3, "text": "Why not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I - you know, it's so exciting to me because I was - I didn't say my real age for years, you know? And..."}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 4, "text": "So what are some of the things that bother you most and some of the things you find most liberating about having turned 50 a few years ago?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because of the taboo of it. And, you know, when people find out, especially being an actor in the industry, it hurts. It hurts you. For a woman, you hit that 40 - you know, it affects you because it i"}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 5, "text": "Two years ago. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, only two."}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 6, "text": "Two years ago. Yes, I see.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "See; it's still sensitive."}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's just - I - you kind of - when you get comfortable with yourself, it's a way of feeling confident and not having to hurry up and catch up and measure up to other people. When you let go "}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 8, "text": "So in the opening of the first episode, your character's trying on clothes, and none of them fit because your character has put on a few pounds. So it seems like you've put on a few pounds - I think, in that opening scene, there's maybe a few extra pounds than they really were.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, let's keep going with that. Or are these jowls? Is this what you would call jowls? That's so interesting. Oh, arm cellulite - that's fun. That's fun. You know, so it's like - you know, you have "}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 9, "text": "OK. All right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, that's all me, Terry."}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 10, "text": "So was that stress eating because this has been such a difficult time with you doing so much to get the show done?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 11, "text": "I like the fact that when your character realizes her clothes no longer fit her 'cause she's put on a few pounds, she doesn't go, like, so I'm going on a diet now. And I will lose that weight. My goal will be to fit back in these clothes. I mean, she goes about her life...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm going to - because it's - you know, you get into your 50s, your metabolism does funky things. And, you know, I just - I decided that it would be a very generous thing for me to do - kind of illust"}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 12, "text": "...You know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Interesting."}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 13, "text": "There's not - and also, you, as the star of the show and also the director of the show - you don't have somebody else telling you, Pamela Adlon, if you're going to continue playing this role, you have to lose some weight. No one's telling you that. It's your show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 14, "text": "That's good, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Isn't that interesting? Isn't that amazing?"}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 15, "text": "No, I know. I know. But...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Also, I mean, I didn't gain that much weight, but..."}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 16, "text": "So one of the things about your character is that she doesn't hold back when something bothers her, whether it's about her children or about somebody at her children's school or a stranger in a restaurant or - you know, she doesn't have much of a filter. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I - no, I'm kidding. But listen. I remember being a teenage actor and being on a show. I'm not going to say the name. But I remember some girls on the show being pressured to lose weight. And it was e"}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 17, "text": "...She says what's on her mind. And, you know, there's a fine line between honesty and cruelty. And the girls, though - the girls are always so embarrassed by her - the daughters. Like - this isn't really a spoiler - there's a scene where the girls want to go go-karting in, like, an amusement park. And so you take them even though you don't really want to go. And the the young man who's supposed to be giving the safety talk (whispering) is talking like this, and, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 18, "text": "...No one can hear him. And you finally say, like, you're supposed to be protecting us and telling us what to do, and we can't hear you. And your daughters are, like, so horribly embarrassed by the whole thing. Does that happen to you, where, like, you're trying to speak out...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 19, "text": "...To speak up for reasons of, like, you have a right to have something or to expect something, and you're speaking out not just for yourself, but for other people, but your daughters are just kind of withering with embarrassment?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 20, "text": "Louis C.K. co-created the show with you and was a co-writer with you on the first two seasons. And you parted ways with him after several women went public saying he'd masturbated in front of them, and then he admitted it was true. After those women went public and Louis C.K. confessed to it, you thought of stopping the show because he'd been such a key part of it. Why did you think maybe you should stop, and why did you think that you were going to continue anyways?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let's get back to Terry's 2019 interview with Pamela Adlon. She's the star and co-creator of the FX series \"Better Things,\" which concluded its five-season run last month. Adlon herself directed the s"}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 21, "text": "So what did you change so that you could move forward?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My personal feelings about what had happened - you know, me trying to wrap my mind around, you know, this cataclysmic event that happened and was directly affecting, how do I keep making this show, yo"}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 22, "text": "Because Louis was affiliated with it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was given the go-ahead by the head of my network, who's the incredible John Landgraf. You know, there was just a certain point that he called me. And he told me some other weird, bad news abou"}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 23, "text": "Instead of coming up with the stories with Louis, you started a writers room and hired women - exclusively women?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. And so I just said to him at a certain point - I said, I - this doesn't really make sense anymore. I don't think that I can do this show anymore. I don't think that my heart's in it. I don"}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 24, "text": "Your character sees images of her father sometimes, who kind of gives her advice. Sometimes it's good advice. Sometimes it's really not. And I saw a picture of your father. I can't remember if it was IMDB or someplace else, and he looks a lot like the actor playing the ghost of your father.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross. Let's get back to Terry's 2019 interview with actor, writer and director Pamela Adlon. \"Better Things,\" the FX series in which she starred, "}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 25, "text": "I guess that was intentional.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 26, "text": "Is that weird for you? - because he's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I made a my dad."}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was crazy the first time. It was crazy. I mean, I had my friend Zoe Hay, who was the - you know, she was the merkin master on \"Masters Of Sex.\""}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 28, "text": "And your father died in 1994, I think.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She created the hairpieces for Adam Kulbersh, who plays my dad. And it was unbelievable. When I did the pilot, I could not get over it. And, you know, I wear a green sweater quite a bit in my show and"}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 29, "text": "So, like, you've really, like, revived him for the show. Yeah. And he did - he wrote a lot of episodic TV. I'm wondering what his attitude was for the shows that he wrote for, I mean, because IMDB isn't always accurate. But there were...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 30, "text": "...A lot of shows where it says he did, like, one episode. I don't know if that's true or if that's a mistake.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 31, "text": "Excuse me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, he did. Yeah. He wrote one episode of \"The Love Boat\" or maybe two. He wrote an episode of \"The Jeffersons.\" He wrote an episode of \"Chico And The Man.\" You know, he was a gun-for-hire write"}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 32, "text": "Oh, gosh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I think that was '80 - what? - I don't even know - '88 or something. It made, like, the top 10 worst..."}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 33, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...TV movie lists of '88 or something like that. And he was so excited. He was like, we're part of the conversation."}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 34, "text": "Was it discouraging for you to see him work so hard and just do episodes of, like, some good shows and some bad shows?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. We're top 10. Top 10 anything is good."}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 35, "text": "Oh, you were working in the flower store.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It wasn't discouraging for me. I - it was work. I was seeing somebody working. You know, it's - and before that, he was writing comic books, and he was producing a daytime talk show. And my mother was"}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 36, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Why am I working in a flower store?"}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 37, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I like work."}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 38, "text": "You've told the story to interviewers about how when you were in your teens and you were working - I think on a sitcom, maybe a movie - there was a scene where you were wearing a towel, and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, that was my thing. I mean, I worked at Alice Underground in New York. I liked working in retail. I - anything to keep my income, you know, going. And now, of course, I get the ultimate gift,"}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 39, "text": "...The director said, oh, you know what would be really hilarious is if you dropped the towel. But I don't think you've said, like, what did you do? Did you do what the director asked you, or did you refuse?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 40, "text": "What was it like being a teenager - you were - what? - 15.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I was about 15 years old, and I was wearing a towel. So we're supposed to be post-swim because we've broken into somebody's house. And he said that to me. And by some - I don't know - grace "}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 41, "text": "So you're 15, and you're telling the director, who's supposed to be telling you what to do - and that's his job. And you're telling him no.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was 15."}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 42, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he wanted to see my butt. He wanted me to drop my towel."}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 43, "text": "Has the #MeToo movement led you to rethink some of the things you experienced in your past and kind of see them in a different light?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He said we'd only see your butt. And I just was so uncomfortable."}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 44, "text": "You mean physically hurt, not emotionally hurt.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely, absolutely. You know, when all of it was going down, I was haunted by, you know, memories. I was kind of, like, flipping through the Rolodex of my experiences and looking at them and g"}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 45, "text": "But then you risk losing the job, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. And I remember meeting an old - my old friend Steve Antin, who was in the movie \"The Goonies.\" And one day, we were in a store, and we were just comparing scars where we got hurt at work. And"}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 46, "text": "How come you're not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That's the thing. And, you know, it's why I have my dad say - the dad character in my show say, you know, don't be a whistleblower, you know, and I do the opposite because people are still afrai"}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 47, "text": "Your character on the show - again, a single mother of three - and in your series, the middle daughter almost bullies her mother, your character. And she's so - like, the children, the three children are, like, so not curious about their mother's life, you know? And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't know. It used to get me in trouble, and now it got me a show."}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 48, "text": "But they're not. They're really not. You know, like, you could be going through the most, like, extraordinary or excruciating thing. And it's, like, they don't even want to know about it. And you could go out of your way to do, like, something great for, say, the middle daughter and get her tickets to something she's been dying to see.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 49, "text": "And she'll just be rude to you about it. Or, like - so is that something that you've experienced? And how do you explain that? - because I know a lot of parents feel that way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 50, "text": "So when we started the interview, we played a clip from \"Better Things\" in which your character is telling her doctor that she needs something to help her sleep because one daughter's going through puberty, another is going to college, and she has to - and your character has to pay tuition. And your character is going through menopause, and it's just like, too much, and you can't sleep. So you yourself have been through a lot of that. Add on that you also went through the trauma of everything that happened with Louis. Are you getting any sleep?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So it's like that thing when people say when - if a kid says to you, how was your day, it's shocking. You're stunned. Oh, my God. Thank you for asking. My day - wait. Whew. Be still my heart. Let me"}
{"id": "1097086503", "date": "2022-05-06", "guest": "Pamela Adlon", "title": "Pamela Adlon says 'Better Things' has been an exaggerated version of her life", "question_index": 51, "text": "Thank you so much for talking with us. I love talking with you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do get sleep. I sleep pretty good, I got to tell you. I do the thing that I said in the scene with Dr. Babu. I don't sleep anymore. I pass out."}
{"id": "1098178167", "date": "2022-05-11", "guest": "Eric Holder", "title": "Former Attorney General Eric Holder continues the fight for voting rights", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Eric Holder, became the first African American attorney general in 2009 when he was appointed by the first African American president, Barack Obama. One of Holder's priorities as AG was voting rights. But during his tenure, in 2013, the Supreme Court gutted key parts of the 1965 Voting Rights Act in the case Shelby County v. Holder. Shelby County, Ala., had challenged the provision of the Voting Rights Act that required preclearance, which meant states, like Alabama, with a history of discriminating against Black voters needed to receive clearance from the Justice Department before enacting any new voting laws. The Shelby decision, striking down that provision, opened the door to a slew of voting restrictions. After Holder stepped down as attorney general in 2015, voting rights and election fairness remained a top priority. He founded the National Democratic Redistricting Committee with the goal of reforming how state legislative maps are drawn to ensure they're fair, not partisan, and ending the practice of gerrymandering. In his new book, Holder asks what he describes as an existential question - how do we save democracy before it's too late? The book, co-written with Sam Koppelman, is called \"Our Unfinished March: The Violent Past And Imperiled Future Of The Vote.\" Eric Holder, welcome to FRESH AIR. I want to start in a similar way your book does. Take us back to when you were - I think you were 12 - watching reports on the march on Selma across the Edmund Pettus Bridge, the march for voting rights in which people, including John Lewis, were beaten by the police.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1098178167", "date": "2022-05-11", "guest": "Eric Holder", "title": "Former Attorney General Eric Holder continues the fight for voting rights", "question_index": 1, "text": "Voting rights became a priority for you as attorney general. How did that become a priority?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it was in 1963. I was 12 years old. I was in my basement of my small house in Queens looking at a black-and-white television and witnessing what happened as marchers tried to go across the Edmun"}
{"id": "1098178167", "date": "2022-05-11", "guest": "Eric Holder", "title": "Former Attorney General Eric Holder continues the fight for voting rights", "question_index": 2, "text": "While you were attorney general, there was the now famous case, Shelby v. Holder, where Shelby, Ala., challenged the constitutionality of part of the Voting Rights Act. So just to refresh people's memories, explain what that case was about.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I like to think of myself as a child of the '60s. And, you know, I remember what I've just described - you know, the '65 incident at the Edmund Pettus Bridge. I remember before that - "}
{"id": "1098178167", "date": "2022-05-11", "guest": "Eric Holder", "title": "Former Attorney General Eric Holder continues the fight for voting rights", "question_index": 3, "text": "So before the Shelby case, the Justice Department had to give clearance to any new restrictions in places that were historically prejudiced against certain voters, like Black voters. And the Roberts decision basically said, hey, that's in the past. Things have changed. Why hold the past against places like Shelby County, Ala.?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. The Shelby County v. Holder case arose in 2013. Shelby County, Ala., filed a lawsuit that essentially challenged what's called the coverage formula in the 1965 Voting Rights Act, which has legit"}
{"id": "1098178167", "date": "2022-05-11", "guest": "Eric Holder", "title": "Former Attorney General Eric Holder continues the fight for voting rights", "question_index": 4, "text": "So let's take this to the really practical level. What is something that your Justice Department was able to do to uphold voting rights under the Voting Rights Act that you were no longer able to do under the Voting Rights Act after the Supreme Court decision striking down key parts of the act?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's basically right. I mean, yeah, the covered jurisdictions were largely the states that were part of the Confederacy, although there were some covered jurisdictions. Actually - people find this k"}
{"id": "1098178167", "date": "2022-05-11", "guest": "Eric Holder", "title": "Former Attorney General Eric Holder continues the fight for voting rights", "question_index": 5, "text": "And you were able to do that because of the Voting Rights Act.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we filed a suit in Texas, where Texas tried to impose a photo ID regimen that required everybody who wanted to vote to possess this state-issued photo ID. And we were able to show that this had "}
{"id": "1098178167", "date": "2022-05-11", "guest": "Eric Holder", "title": "Former Attorney General Eric Holder continues the fight for voting rights", "question_index": 6, "text": "What was your role in arguing the case in the Supreme Court in Shelby v. Holder? Your name is on the case 'cause you were the head of the Justice Department. So what did it mean to have your name on the case, and what role did you actually play in the case itself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Texas had - was a covered jurisdiction. And the changes that they wanted to make in their voting procedures was something that we could examine under the Voting Rights Act of 1965."}
{"id": "1098178167", "date": "2022-05-11", "guest": "Eric Holder", "title": "Former Attorney General Eric Holder continues the fight for voting rights", "question_index": 7, "text": "Is there anything in retrospect you would have done differently?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. The case was argued by our very able solicitor general, Don Verrilli. And as he prepared the briefs and actually went to the oral argument, he said, Eric, I actually think that we're going have "}
{"id": "1098178167", "date": "2022-05-11", "guest": "Eric Holder", "title": "Former Attorney General Eric Holder continues the fight for voting rights", "question_index": 8, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Eric Holder, who was attorney general under President Obama. His new book is called \"Our Unfinished March: The Violent Past And Imperiled Future Of The Vote.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think so. I mean, I think that this is one of those cases where the case was argued well. The factual record was good. Legal precedent was on our side. I simply think that the court got it wro"}
{"id": "1098178167", "date": "2022-05-11", "guest": "Eric Holder", "title": "Former Attorney General Eric Holder continues the fight for voting rights", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Eric Holder, who served as attorney general under President Obama. He's written a new book called \"Our Unfinished March: The Violent Past And Imperiled Future Of The Vote.\" So you were very firm in your opinion that Shelby County v. Holder was settled in an unjust way. You really disapprove of the Supreme Court's decision and of Chief Justice Roberts' majority opinion. How does it feel to have this case that makes you so angry - have your name attached to it? It will forever be Shelby County v. Holder - you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think so. I mean, I think that this is one of those cases where the case was argued well. The factual record was good. Legal precedent was on our side. I simply think that the court got it wro"}
{"id": "1098178167", "date": "2022-05-11", "guest": "Eric Holder", "title": "Former Attorney General Eric Holder continues the fight for voting rights", "question_index": 10, "text": "They leave your name off.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That's actually an interesting question. And I smiled a little bit because those who are near and dear to me, those who work with me, always refer to the case as the Shelby County case. They kno"}
{"id": "1098178167", "date": "2022-05-11", "guest": "Eric Holder", "title": "Former Attorney General Eric Holder continues the fight for voting rights", "question_index": 11, "text": "You said that you were chagrined by the Supreme Court's decision. In your book, you say this decision made you angry, angrier than you ever were as attorney general. Are there - like, what are the best channels of appropriately addressing your anger when you were attorney general? And did you ever worry that if you expressed too much anger, you would be portrayed as an angry Black man?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...There is a part of me that does not want my name - not a part - there is - my entirety does not want to be in any way associated with that case. It's almost as if, you know - like Dred Scott v. Hol"}
{"id": "1098178167", "date": "2022-05-11", "guest": "Eric Holder", "title": "Former Attorney General Eric Holder continues the fight for voting rights", "question_index": 12, "text": "Can you talk a little bit more about that concern about being portrayed as, like, an angry Black man? Like, what does that mean? And why do people in power who are Black sometimes have to not show their anger because of that racist way of being depicted?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, I mean, what I tried to do was channel the anger that I felt immediately by calling to the Justice Department the next day, the heads of all of the major civil rights organizations to the "}
{"id": "1098178167", "date": "2022-05-11", "guest": "Eric Holder", "title": "Former Attorney General Eric Holder continues the fight for voting rights", "question_index": 13, "text": "You write that your silent protest against the court's decision was that you weren't going to appear in that Supreme Court during your tenure as attorney general. What did that mean exactly - that you wouldn't ever walk into the court, that you wouldn't want to argue a case yourself, which I'm not sure or an attorney general ever would do anyways? Like, what did you not do that you might ordinarily have done?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Because if you demonstrate your anger, you can be dismissed. Well, yeah, he's mad because he's Black, and this affects Black people, and he's reacting as a Black person. And so what you try to d"}
{"id": "1098178167", "date": "2022-05-11", "guest": "Eric Holder", "title": "Former Attorney General Eric Holder continues the fight for voting rights", "question_index": 14, "text": "I didn't know that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's actually a tradition that every attorney general argues at least one case before the United States Supreme Court. The solicitor general..."}
{"id": "1098178167", "date": "2022-05-11", "guest": "Eric Holder", "title": "Former Attorney General Eric Holder continues the fight for voting rights", "question_index": 15, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Eric Holder, who served as attorney general under President Obama. His new book is called \"Our Unfinished March: The Violent Past And Imperiled Future Of The Vote.\" We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. The solicitor general, as I say in the book, picks, you know, basically the easiest case that's up for the term so that the attorney general will go in there, have to deal with the easiest quest"}
{"id": "1098178167", "date": "2022-05-11", "guest": "Eric Holder", "title": "Former Attorney General Eric Holder continues the fight for voting rights", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Eric Holder. He was attorney general under President Obama. His new book is called \"Our Unfinished March: The Violent Past And Imperiled Future Of The Vote.\" You know, you said that you started to think of the court as being more ideological, not more partisan, but more ideological. Now we're expecting the Supreme Court to basically undo Roe v. Wade because we had a preview of the decision. Now, it's only a draft. But it's likely to - the final version is likely to be a variation of that draft. What are your impressions of the Supreme Court now in the light of that likely decision?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. The solicitor general, as I say in the book, picks, you know, basically the easiest case that's up for the term so that the attorney general will go in there, have to deal with the easiest quest"}
{"id": "1098178167", "date": "2022-05-11", "guest": "Eric Holder", "title": "Former Attorney General Eric Holder continues the fight for voting rights", "question_index": 17, "text": "You were an advocate of marriage equality. Do you think that the basis of the Supreme Court's probable abortion decision, you know, the draft of the abortion decision, would lead to the overturning of marriage equality, even though the draft says that this interpretation of privacy only applies to, you know, Roe v. Wade, not to other decisions? But in another case, it could apply to other decisions, right? It's just not mandatory that it apply.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I don't think we're likely to see the opinion that was leaked that had that caustic, heated, over-the-top language. I'd be very surprised if much of that opinion itself survives or the l"}
{"id": "1098178167", "date": "2022-05-11", "guest": "Eric Holder", "title": "Former Attorney General Eric Holder continues the fight for voting rights", "question_index": 18, "text": "What was your blood pressure like when Mitch McConnell blocked President Obama from appointing Merrick Garland as a Supreme Court justice, saying it was just too late in Obama's tenure as president? I mean, he wouldn't even let the nomination move forward. You were no longer attorney general. But I'm sure you felt very strongly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's exactly right. Once you go after the underpinnings of Roe v. Wade, which really rests on a 1960s case, Griswold v. Connecticut, which establishes the right to privacy - once you, in essen"}
{"id": "1098178167", "date": "2022-05-11", "guest": "Eric Holder", "title": "Former Attorney General Eric Holder continues the fight for voting rights", "question_index": 19, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Eric Holder, who was attorney general under President Obama. His new book is called \"Our Unfinished March: The Violent Past And Imperiled Future Of The Vote.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. I felt very strongly about the fact that they were blocking even the consideration. It would be terrible if they had voted down Merrick Garland as a justice. But they didn't even give him the co"}
{"id": "1098178167", "date": "2022-05-11", "guest": "Eric Holder", "title": "Former Attorney General Eric Holder continues the fight for voting rights", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Eric Holder, who served as attorney general under President Obama. He's written a new book called \"Our Unfinished March: The Violent Past And Imperiled Future Of The Vote.\" When you left your position as attorney general, in addition to returning to private practice, you made redistricting your cause. As we've discussed, voting rights has always been a really important issue to you. But, you know, redistricting is a different way of dealing with voting than, say, campaigns to get out the vote or even trying to strike down restrictive voter laws. Why did you make redistricting and gerrymandering your issue?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. I felt very strongly about the fact that they were blocking even the consideration. It would be terrible if they had voted down Merrick Garland as a justice. But they didn't even give him the co"}
{"id": "1098178167", "date": "2022-05-11", "guest": "Eric Holder", "title": "Former Attorney General Eric Holder continues the fight for voting rights", "question_index": 21, "text": "You grew up during the civil rights era, and as you were coming of age you watched Malcolm X get assassinated, Martin Luther King, Medgar Evers. You saw attacks on citizens just standing up for their right to vote. As the first African American attorney general who was serving under the first African American president, did you think a lot about assassination threats because you were at a very impressionable age when black leaders were getting killed? And I don't know if I've hit on a very sensitive subject that might be difficult to discuss, but I thought I'd ask.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. When I left the department, what I said in - I had a number of going away ceremonies, and what I said in each one of them was that although I was leaving the position, I was never going to leave"}
{"id": "1098178167", "date": "2022-05-11", "guest": "Eric Holder", "title": "Former Attorney General Eric Holder continues the fight for voting rights", "question_index": 22, "text": "Did having Malcolm X live just a few blocks away from you make him - this iconic figure - more real to you? He wasn't somebody on TV only. His home - you'd pass it in your neighborhood. And I'm sure you might have felt the shock of his assassination more as a result of being so - in such close proximity to his home. What impact did that have on you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It is not something that you allow to be front of mind because it could be a crippling thing. And yet, yeah, there are, you know, those thoughts. I grew up, as you said, at a time when Medgar Ev"}
{"id": "1098178167", "date": "2022-05-11", "guest": "Eric Holder", "title": "Former Attorney General Eric Holder continues the fight for voting rights", "question_index": 23, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Eric Holder, who was attorney general under President Obama and is now - in addition to being in private practice, he is the chair of the National Democratic Redistricting Committee. His new book is called \"Our Unfinished March: The Violent Past And Imperiled Future Of The Vote.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's an interesting question because I did see him, you know, occasionally and not, you know, not a great deal, but occasionally. And he was just, you know, this guy who had a funny last nam"}
{"id": "1098178167", "date": "2022-05-11", "guest": "Eric Holder", "title": "Former Attorney General Eric Holder continues the fight for voting rights", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Eric Holder. He was attorney general under President Obama and is now the author of the new book \"Our Unfinished March: The Violent Past And Imperiled Future Of The Vote.\" Your parents are from Barbados. You grew up in Manhattan or in Queens?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's an interesting question because I did see him, you know, occasionally and not, you know, not a great deal, but occasionally. And he was just, you know, this guy who had a funny last nam"}
{"id": "1098178167", "date": "2022-05-11", "guest": "Eric Holder", "title": "Former Attorney General Eric Holder continues the fight for voting rights", "question_index": 25, "text": "In Queens, N.Y. Did your view of America, growing up in New York City, differ from your parents, having moved here to the U.S.?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In Queens."}
{"id": "1098178167", "date": "2022-05-11", "guest": "Eric Holder", "title": "Former Attorney General Eric Holder continues the fight for voting rights", "question_index": 26, "text": "You went to Columbia University as an undergraduate, also as a law student. I think during your undergraduate years, that that was the period that there were constant protests at Columbia when Columbia's - students from Columbia were sitting in and taking control of administrative buildings. Were you part of those protests?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think different in this way. My parents, as immigrants, love this country unquestioningly. My father came here as a 13-, 14-year-old boy. His mother moved here a couple of years before him, then sen"}
{"id": "1098178167", "date": "2022-05-11", "guest": "Eric Holder", "title": "Former Attorney General Eric Holder continues the fight for voting rights", "question_index": 27, "text": "How did your parents feel about you being a part of those student protests? I mean, here you were, like, I'm sure they saved money and worked hard, made sure you got a good education, which you did. You went to Columbia, one of the best universities in the country. And then what are you doing? You're part of an uprising on campus. Did they think of you as being, like, really ungrateful both to the university and to them and to your country?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I sure was, as a freshman in 1969, 1970. There was an abandoned ROTC office on campus, and a group of Black students at Columbia decided that we would to take it over and convert it into a place"}
{"id": "1098178167", "date": "2022-05-11", "guest": "Eric Holder", "title": "Former Attorney General Eric Holder continues the fight for voting rights", "question_index": 28, "text": "So did you feel like this was a turning point for you, that you had to decide between supporting your parents' point of view or supporting the social change, the campus change that you believed in? Were you getting pulled in two directions? Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can encapsulate their reaction in this story. Somebody comes to my dorm room the night of the takeover and says, hey, we're taking over the ROTC office. We're going to form a lounge. You know, it's "}
{"id": "1098178167", "date": "2022-05-11", "guest": "Eric Holder", "title": "Former Attorney General Eric Holder continues the fight for voting rights", "question_index": 29, "text": "So, you know, your cause is voting rights and voting equality. A lot of people don't vote, and they say, like, why bother? Nothing changes. Both parties have problems. I - it's not going to matter. What do you say to them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I didn't really think I was getting pulled in two directions because in spite of the fact that my mother and I'm sure my father expressed, you know, were dissatisfied with the decision I made, t"}
{"id": "1098178167", "date": "2022-05-11", "guest": "Eric Holder", "title": "Former Attorney General Eric Holder continues the fight for voting rights", "question_index": 30, "text": "Eric Holder, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's nonsense. John Lewis and President Johnson both said it best that the vote is the most powerful instrument that we have, the most powerful nonviolent instrument that we have to bring about posi"}
{"id": "1098178167", "date": "2022-05-11", "guest": "Eric Holder", "title": "Former Attorney General Eric Holder continues the fight for voting rights", "question_index": 31, "text": "Eric Holder served as attorney general in the Obama administration. His new book is called \"Our Unfinished March: The Violent Past And Imperiled Future Of The Vote.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll talk about how Fox News host Tucker Carlson created one of the most successful cable TV shows ever by offering messages of fear, loathing and resentment. Our guests will be New York Times reporter Nicholas Confessore, who wrote a series of articles about Carlson's show and its impact after analyzing hundreds of Carlson episodes. I hope you'll join us. Before we go, here's something I never thought I'd have the opportunity to say. Today, FRESH AIR is celebrating its 35th anniversary as a daily national program distributed by NPR. Our thanks to our listeners and to the NPR stations that carry us. We look forward to producing many more episodes. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Joe Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right. Well, thank you so much for having me."}
{"id": "1098762497", "date": "2022-05-13", "guest": "Anthony Roth Costanzo", "title": "Anthony Roth Costanzo nearly lost his voice to cancer. Now he's back as 'Akhnaten'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Anthony Roth Costanzo, welcome to FRESH AIR. You're amazing", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Vocalizing, singing) Love likes me. Love takes it shoes off and sits on the couch. Love has an answer for everything. Love smiles gently and crosses its legs. Well, here we are. Well, here we are. Sl"}
{"id": "1098762497", "date": "2022-05-13", "guest": "Anthony Roth Costanzo", "title": "Anthony Roth Costanzo nearly lost his voice to cancer. Now he's back as 'Akhnaten'", "question_index": 1, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Vocalizing, singing) Love likes me. Love takes it shoes off and sits on the couch. Love has an answer for everything. Love smiles gently and crosses its legs. Well, here we are. Well, here we are. Sl"}
{"id": "1098762497", "date": "2022-05-13", "guest": "Anthony Roth Costanzo", "title": "Anthony Roth Costanzo nearly lost his voice to cancer. Now he's back as 'Akhnaten'", "question_index": 2, "text": "So let's just start with, what does it mean to be a countertenor?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me, Terry. I'm thrilled."}
{"id": "1098762497", "date": "2022-05-13", "guest": "Anthony Roth Costanzo", "title": "Anthony Roth Costanzo nearly lost his voice to cancer. Now he's back as 'Akhnaten'", "question_index": 3, "text": "So what's the difference between what you do and, for instance, what Smokey Robinson does?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So a countertenor is essentially a man who sings in a falsetto voice. And the falsetto voice is just particularly resonant and well-developed. And it's that simple."}
{"id": "1098762497", "date": "2022-05-13", "guest": "Anthony Roth Costanzo", "title": "Anthony Roth Costanzo nearly lost his voice to cancer. Now he's back as 'Akhnaten'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Can you sing in a kind of falsetto like, you know, that a pop singer would use...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, actually, we do the same thing physiologically. So every person has these two vocal cords, and they come together. I sort of liken it to blowing grass between your thumbs, if you've ever done th"}
{"id": "1098762497", "date": "2022-05-13", "guest": "Anthony Roth Costanzo", "title": "Anthony Roth Costanzo nearly lost his voice to cancer. Now he's back as 'Akhnaten'", "question_index": 5, "text": "...And compare that to your operatic voice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1098762497", "date": "2022-05-13", "guest": "Anthony Roth Costanzo", "title": "Anthony Roth Costanzo nearly lost his voice to cancer. Now he's back as 'Akhnaten'", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yeah. I think you better do that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Well, you know, Justin Bieber or Justin Timberlake, those people who use falsettos - they generally do something like, (vocalizing). You know, that's the feeling of it. And they're really close "}
{"id": "1098762497", "date": "2022-05-13", "guest": "Anthony Roth Costanzo", "title": "Anthony Roth Costanzo nearly lost his voice to cancer. Now he's back as 'Akhnaten'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Right. And I can hear - like, there's no air in that sound. It's just all...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Vocalizing) And, you see, even if I don't do it super loud, if I do it in a more refined, sensitive way, it's still a full, rich sound (vocalizing). So it has a different quality, and it's really jus"}
{"id": "1098762497", "date": "2022-05-13", "guest": "Anthony Roth Costanzo", "title": "Anthony Roth Costanzo nearly lost his voice to cancer. Now he's back as 'Akhnaten'", "question_index": 8, "text": "It starts with a full bell-like sound. I can hear the difference in what you're doing. I get it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hopefully."}
{"id": "1098762497", "date": "2022-05-13", "guest": "Anthony Roth Costanzo", "title": "Anthony Roth Costanzo nearly lost his voice to cancer. Now he's back as 'Akhnaten'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Can you give us a sense of the range of your voice, how low you can go and how high you can go?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I think the completeness of that sound is what allows it to carry unamplified in an opera house."}
{"id": "1098762497", "date": "2022-05-13", "guest": "Anthony Roth Costanzo", "title": "Anthony Roth Costanzo nearly lost his voice to cancer. Now he's back as 'Akhnaten'", "question_index": 10, "text": "So can you demonstrate, like, the range that you have, going as low and as high as you can?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the thing about countertenors is we have our, quote-unquote, \"male\" voice or, you know, normal chest voice. So I can go all the way down into a baritone if I want. But on the high end, I go up t"}
{"id": "1098762497", "date": "2022-05-13", "guest": "Anthony Roth Costanzo", "title": "Anthony Roth Costanzo nearly lost his voice to cancer. Now he's back as 'Akhnaten'", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Let me try. If I were to go all the way down in baritone, it would be like, (vocalizing). Then there'll be a switch, which - that switch is the break between what we call the chest voice and the"}
{"id": "1098762497", "date": "2022-05-13", "guest": "Anthony Roth Costanzo", "title": "Anthony Roth Costanzo nearly lost his voice to cancer. Now he's back as 'Akhnaten'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Yeah. We're recording - it is now 10:15 in the morning as we record this. You sing a lot of contemporary music and a lot of early music from the 17th and 18th century.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1098762497", "date": "2022-05-13", "guest": "Anthony Roth Costanzo", "title": "Anthony Roth Costanzo nearly lost his voice to cancer. Now he's back as 'Akhnaten'", "question_index": 13, "text": "So I want to play just a short passage of some Handel from your album of music by Handel and Philip Glass. And I'm choosing this because, like, you're singing some low notes as well as the high notes in this. So I thought it would be an interesting time to play this. This is from Handel's opera, \"Rodelinda.\" And this is the \"Vivi Tiranno.\" Am I pronouncing that correctly?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "1098762497", "date": "2022-05-13", "guest": "Anthony Roth Costanzo", "title": "Anthony Roth Costanzo nearly lost his voice to cancer. Now he's back as 'Akhnaten'", "question_index": 14, "text": "And what does it mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Perfect."}
{"id": "1098762497", "date": "2022-05-13", "guest": "Anthony Roth Costanzo", "title": "Anthony Roth Costanzo nearly lost his voice to cancer. Now he's back as 'Akhnaten'", "question_index": 15, "text": "OK. And is there anything you want to say about what you're doing in this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It means live, you tyrant."}
{"id": "1098762497", "date": "2022-05-13", "guest": "Anthony Roth Costanzo", "title": "Anthony Roth Costanzo nearly lost his voice to cancer. Now he's back as 'Akhnaten'", "question_index": 16, "text": "And you agree you're going between some pretty deep notes for you, as well as the high notes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. So it's a great aria in the opera in which I save my captor, the bad guy, from an even worse bad guy. And I say to him, look, I saved you to show you that my heart is bigger than my fate. And to "}
{"id": "1098762497", "date": "2022-05-13", "guest": "Anthony Roth Costanzo", "title": "Anthony Roth Costanzo nearly lost his voice to cancer. Now he's back as 'Akhnaten'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Absolutely. OK, so let's hear it. This is Anthony Roth Costanzo.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes. The opening phrase, I start up in my head voice, and then I switch down into the \"male,\" quote-unquote, chest voice. And that's a great juxtaposition, which I think adds drama."}
{"id": "1098762497", "date": "2022-05-13", "guest": "Anthony Roth Costanzo", "title": "Anthony Roth Costanzo nearly lost his voice to cancer. Now he's back as 'Akhnaten'", "question_index": 18, "text": "That was Anthony Roth Costanzo singing music by Handel from his album of music by Glass and Handel. And he's about to star in the Metropolitan Opera production of \"Akhnaten,\" the Philip Glass opera. So tell us a little bit about how you do that coloratura, that very embroidered kind of singing. It seems so hard because you have to be precisely on the note, but it's happening so fast.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing in Italian)."}
{"id": "1098762497", "date": "2022-05-13", "guest": "Anthony Roth Costanzo", "title": "Anthony Roth Costanzo nearly lost his voice to cancer. Now he's back as 'Akhnaten'", "question_index": 19, "text": "It must take such patience.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...One beautiful - not machine gun-like, but more, you know, elegant. So it takes a lot of practice. And I start slowly. You can imagine, you know, I put a metronome on. It goes, tick-tock, tick-tock."}
{"id": "1098762497", "date": "2022-05-13", "guest": "Anthony Roth Costanzo", "title": "Anthony Roth Costanzo nearly lost his voice to cancer. Now he's back as 'Akhnaten'", "question_index": 20, "text": "So at the same time that these muscles are involuntary so that you have to use imagery to get them to do what you'd like them to do, they are muscles, and they can be strengthened. So you have very strong muscles in your throat. I don't know if you can strengthen the vocal cords, per se, but you can strengthen the muscles. So what exactly are you strengthening when you strengthen your voice? And do you do - are, like, scales and things like that, exercises not only for, you know, learning precision and tone and all of that, but also just to strengthen the muscles?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It does take patience. It takes a lot of failing and frustration. But also, what's amazing about singing is that the muscles involved in it are involuntary. And so how do we control them? And the only"}
{"id": "1098762497", "date": "2022-05-13", "guest": "Anthony Roth Costanzo", "title": "Anthony Roth Costanzo nearly lost his voice to cancer. Now he's back as 'Akhnaten'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Before we get to Akhnaten, let's talk a little bit more about the tradition of countertenors. It's a tradition that starts in the 1600s.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2019 interview with countertenor Anthony Roth Costanzo. He starred in that year's Metropolitan Opera production of \"Akhnaten,\" the Philip Glass opera about"}
{"id": "1098762497", "date": "2022-05-13", "guest": "Anthony Roth Costanzo", "title": "Anthony Roth Costanzo nearly lost his voice to cancer. Now he's back as 'Akhnaten'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Earlier?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "1098762497", "date": "2022-05-13", "guest": "Anthony Roth Costanzo", "title": "Anthony Roth Costanzo nearly lost his voice to cancer. Now he's back as 'Akhnaten'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Women weren't allowed to sing in church.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Who, before the age of puberty, has had their testicles usually crushed between two stones. And this was a practice that started in 1599 as far as we know. And what that did was to preserve the hig"}
{"id": "1098762497", "date": "2022-05-13", "guest": "Anthony Roth Costanzo", "title": "Anthony Roth Costanzo nearly lost his voice to cancer. Now he's back as 'Akhnaten'", "question_index": 24, "text": "So since you're about to star as Akhenaten in the Philip Glass opera \"Akhenaten\" about the ancient Egyptian pharaoh, let's start with who Akhenaten was and what he represents in the history of ancient Egypt.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross. Let's get back to Terry's 2019 interview with Philip Roth Costanzo (ph). He's a countertenor, which means he sings in the range associated w"}
{"id": "1098762497", "date": "2022-05-13", "guest": "Anthony Roth Costanzo", "title": "Anthony Roth Costanzo nearly lost his voice to cancer. Now he's back as 'Akhnaten'", "question_index": 25, "text": "I think a lot of people now think that Akhenaten might have been trans. And I think he believed that divinity was a combination of the male and female, which in some ways is not an unusual thought. But why do people think in retrospect that he might have been trans?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Akhenaten is fascinating and also really complex. He was a pharaoh who, in 1375 B.C. or so - think 200 years before Moses, so a long time ago - became pharaoh at 17. And a few years later, he has this"}
{"id": "1098762497", "date": "2022-05-13", "guest": "Anthony Roth Costanzo", "title": "Anthony Roth Costanzo nearly lost his voice to cancer. Now he's back as 'Akhnaten'", "question_index": 26, "text": "And more feminine costumes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, it's so interesting. I - when I first was studying Akhenaten, everyone in text referred to him as a hermaphrodite. And so I was talking to all these Egyptologists as I was researching "}
{"id": "1098762497", "date": "2022-05-13", "guest": "Anthony Roth Costanzo", "title": "Anthony Roth Costanzo nearly lost his voice to cancer. Now he's back as 'Akhnaten'", "question_index": 27, "text": "Just tell us a little bit about entering naked. You've done this. You've done other productions of Akhenaten, and you've made your entrance naked before. What is that experience like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, more feminine costumes. But also, I wear these kind of gauzy Egyptian linen pleated robes. And underneath them, the costume designer Kevin Pollard and the director Phelim McDermott have chosen th"}
{"id": "1098762497", "date": "2022-05-13", "guest": "Anthony Roth Costanzo", "title": "Anthony Roth Costanzo nearly lost his voice to cancer. Now he's back as 'Akhnaten'", "question_index": 28, "text": "And are you wearing any body makeup or anything?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "1098762497", "date": "2022-05-13", "guest": "Anthony Roth Costanzo", "title": "Anthony Roth Costanzo nearly lost his voice to cancer. Now he's back as 'Akhnaten'", "question_index": 29, "text": "That takes confidence.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But no. When the director asked me to be naked, I said, well, why? And he said, you know, it's going to create this magical effect. And in fact, we don't do it in a way that's sensational in that I do"}
{"id": "1098762497", "date": "2022-05-13", "guest": "Anthony Roth Costanzo", "title": "Anthony Roth Costanzo nearly lost his voice to cancer. Now he's back as 'Akhnaten'", "question_index": 30, "text": "Well, let's hear you sing something from \"Akhnaten.\" And there's no recordings yet from the Met to play. But you did an album of songs and arias by Handel and Philip Glass, and the last track on this is from \"Akhnaten.\" It's \"Hymn To The Sun.\" So tell us where this fits in, musically and thematically, in the opera.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, it takes community, actually, is what I've discovered. When I first did it, I thought, well, maybe I shouldn't go naked till the final dress rehearsal, you know, before we open. Then I"}
{"id": "1098762497", "date": "2022-05-13", "guest": "Anthony Roth Costanzo", "title": "Anthony Roth Costanzo nearly lost his voice to cancer. Now he's back as 'Akhnaten'", "question_index": 31, "text": "Which you'll have a lot of use for when this is over.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Most of the opera is in ancient Egyptian and Aramaic and languages like that, and this is the one..."}
{"id": "1098762497", "date": "2022-05-13", "guest": "Anthony Roth Costanzo", "title": "Anthony Roth Costanzo nearly lost his voice to cancer. Now he's back as 'Akhnaten'", "question_index": 32, "text": "OK, so let's hear Anthony Roth Costanzo from his album \"ARC,\" featuring music by Handel and Philip Glass. And he's going to be singing \"Hymn To The Sun\" from the Glass opera \"Akhnaten.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's been fascinating to learn them, but what's great about the way we do it is we don't actually project supertitles or translations, so you don't have to worry about it. It is a ritual that ha"}
{"id": "1098762497", "date": "2022-05-13", "guest": "Anthony Roth Costanzo", "title": "Anthony Roth Costanzo nearly lost his voice to cancer. Now he's back as 'Akhnaten'", "question_index": 33, "text": "Your voice is remarkable, and you've been very generous in demonstrating some of the things you can do with your voice, and how your voice works. What makes it all even more remarkable is that you were diagnosed with thyroid cancer in your late 20s. How long ago was that?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2019 interview with countertenor Anthony Roth Costanzo. He starred in the Metropolitan Opera production of \"Akhnaten,\" the Philip Glass opera about the Egy"}
{"id": "1098762497", "date": "2022-05-13", "guest": "Anthony Roth Costanzo", "title": "Anthony Roth Costanzo nearly lost his voice to cancer. Now he's back as 'Akhnaten'", "question_index": 34, "text": "It's amazing. Did the doctors who operated on you know that you were a singer and how important your voice was?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ten years ago. And it was kind of amazing, Terry. I mean, you know, in the moment, it might feel like a crisis. But looking back on it, it's fascinating, because I was in a voice lesson with my teache"}
{"id": "1098762497", "date": "2022-05-13", "guest": "Anthony Roth Costanzo", "title": "Anthony Roth Costanzo nearly lost his voice to cancer. Now he's back as 'Akhnaten'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Yeah. So we talked about gender fluidity in your music and how countertenors were preceded by castrati, about how Akhnaten was considered to be - in retrospect is now considered to, perhaps, have been trans. I wonder if you feel like you express gender fluidity in your own life outside of the music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I - early on, I made a list. And I would go into the doctor with these lists. I'd say, well, if this were to happen, would I be able to do this? And in terms of the function of the pharynx or - yo"}
{"id": "1098762497", "date": "2022-05-13", "guest": "Anthony Roth Costanzo", "title": "Anthony Roth Costanzo nearly lost his voice to cancer. Now he's back as 'Akhnaten'", "question_index": 36, "text": "Anthony Roth Costanzo, it's just been a delight to talk with you. Thank you for your generosity in singing for us and showing us some of the things that your voice can do. I wish you just great good luck. I hope I can say that. And I know there's so many stage superstitions. But...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm gay. So in that sense, I feel like I'm a part of the queer community. But I feel very much a man in my own body. And what's interesting is I don't actually feel feminine when I sing in that "}
{"id": "1098762497", "date": "2022-05-13", "guest": "Anthony Roth Costanzo", "title": "Anthony Roth Costanzo nearly lost his voice to cancer. Now he's back as 'Akhnaten'", "question_index": 37, "text": "...I'm so looking forward to seeing you in \"Akhnaten.\" And I just hope it's a wonderful experience for you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's perfect."}
{"id": "1099465610", "date": "2022-05-17", "guest": "Frank Bruni", "title": "After a stroke blinded one eye, Frank Bruni focused on the future", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today we're going to feature an interview we enjoyed that few of our listeners heard because we featured it on a day that our show ended up being preempted on most stations by the Katanji Brown-Jackson confirmation hearings. The interview is with Frank Bruni. He says that one night he went to bed believing he was more or less in control of his life, but woke up to the realization of how ludicrous that was. Before I tell you why, let me tell you more about Frank Bruni. He's a contributing opinion writer for The New York Times who recently stepped down as a full-time columnist. Prior to that, he was The Times' chief restaurant critic, a position he was offered after serving as Rome bureau chief and White House correspondent. He also covered the candidacy of George W. Bush. He'd previously been the film critic for the Detroit Free Press and a Pulitzer Prize nominee. He's written books about George W. Bush, about his passion for food and his struggle with his weight, and the crazy-making process of applying to colleges and the fear of not getting into the right one. You can see he's written about life from several perspectives. Let's get back to why he woke up one day realizing it was ludicrous to think he had control over his own life. That morning, after blaming his suddenly blurred, smeary vision on a hangover, he realized the problem was his eye. It was eventually diagnosed as a rare stroke in his eye that irreparably damaged his optic nerve. The prognosis - his vision in that eye would never return, and he was at risk of having another stroke in his good eye. His new memoir is about the emotional. It's physiological and professional adaptations he's had to make is called \"The Beauty Of Dusk: On Vision Lost And Found.\" He's now a professor at Duke University.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1099465610", "date": "2022-05-17", "guest": "Frank Bruni", "title": "After a stroke blinded one eye, Frank Bruni focused on the future", "question_index": 1, "text": "Frank Bruni, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1099465610", "date": "2022-05-17", "guest": "Frank Bruni", "title": "After a stroke blinded one eye, Frank Bruni focused on the future", "question_index": 2, "text": "Well, let's get to your eye and to your new memoir. You write on the first page, (reading) I went to bed seeing the world one way; I woke up seeing it another. And you mean that figuratively and quite literally. How was your vision changed when you woke up in the morning?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1099465610", "date": "2022-05-17", "guest": "Frank Bruni", "title": "After a stroke blinded one eye, Frank Bruni focused on the future", "question_index": 3, "text": "So this was, like, a rare stroke that happens, basically, in your eye and damages the optic nerve. And you were told by doctors, you know, corneas and retinas can frequently be fixed, but when it comes to the optic nerve, there's no fix. One doctor told you that optic nerve damage is the holy grail of solving blindness. I've never heard about this before - a stroke in the eye. Had you ever heard of such a thing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was - it was the strangest thing, Terry. There was a fog, a dappled fog, over the right side of my field of vision. And I thought for hours that there must be some gunk in my eye, or maybe I'd h"}
{"id": "1099465610", "date": "2022-05-17", "guest": "Frank Bruni", "title": "After a stroke blinded one eye, Frank Bruni focused on the future", "question_index": 4, "text": "So when the doctor told you that there was a chance this would happen in the other eye - and first, you were told a 40% chance, and then you were told later it was probably more like a 20% chance. But, you know, that's a lot of - that's still a pretty big possibility, even if it's only 20 or somewhere between 20 and 40. Did you obsess on that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no, not at all. And it is rare, what happened to me. I mean, now, obviously, because I've written about it, because I've spoken about it, you know, I have an inbox that every week I hear from some"}
{"id": "1099465610", "date": "2022-05-17", "guest": "Frank Bruni", "title": "After a stroke blinded one eye, Frank Bruni focused on the future", "question_index": 5, "text": "You ask the deaf or blind a question like, which is worse - to lose your hearing or lose your sight? And a lot of people, including myself, have almost made a game about that. Like, if forced to choose", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, at first - I think the way we're wired as human beings, there's a lot of mercy to it. And at first, I was in shock. And I think a lot of us go into shock when we get news that's difficult to"}
{"id": "1099465610", "date": "2022-05-17", "guest": "Frank Bruni", "title": "After a stroke blinded one eye, Frank Bruni focused on the future", "question_index": 6, "text": ", would I choose my vision or my hearing? And that just drives me crazy when I go down that rabbit hole. And I climb out of that rabbit hole by thinking, no one's going to ask you to choose, you know. This is, like, a pointless...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, at first - I think the way we're wired as human beings, there's a lot of mercy to it. And at first, I was in shock. And I think a lot of us go into shock when we get news that's difficult to"}
{"id": "1099465610", "date": "2022-05-17", "guest": "Frank Bruni", "title": "After a stroke blinded one eye, Frank Bruni focused on the future", "question_index": 7, "text": "...A pointless thing to think about. But you were thinking about it more from, like, a sensory level. Like, you lost your vision in one eye. How does that compare to being completely blind or to being deaf? Can you talk a little bit about reflecting on that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, at first - I think the way we're wired as human beings, there's a lot of mercy to it. And at first, I was in shock. And I think a lot of us go into shock when we get news that's difficult to"}
{"id": "1099465610", "date": "2022-05-17", "guest": "Frank Bruni", "title": "After a stroke blinded one eye, Frank Bruni focused on the future", "question_index": 8, "text": "You decided to enroll in an experimental drug trial that you hoped would restore complete or partial vision in your eye. Unfortunately", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Oh, yes. I mean - and it is funny in a - funny - I don't know if funny is the right word, but as you said, it's kind of surreal that there is this parlor game. People wonder, which would I r"}
{"id": "1099465610", "date": "2022-05-17", "guest": "Frank Bruni", "title": "After a stroke blinded one eye, Frank Bruni focused on the future", "question_index": 9, "text": ", this drug trial entailed having injections in your eye, which I just found a really horrifying prospect. The first thing I thought of was that film \"Andalusian Dog\" by Salvador Dali where there's actually a razor that cuts - that slices the surface of an eye. It's an animal eye, which - I don't think that makes it any better. It's still just, like, gruesome, and that's perhaps an extreme image for an injection medically monitored. But were you afraid of getting an injection in your eye?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Oh, yes. I mean - and it is funny in a - funny - I don't know if funny is the right word, but as you said, it's kind of surreal that there is this parlor game. People wonder, which would I r"}
{"id": "1099465610", "date": "2022-05-17", "guest": "Frank Bruni", "title": "After a stroke blinded one eye, Frank Bruni focused on the future", "question_index": 10, "text": "So what happened to the drug?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Afraid doesn't even begin to cover it. Yeah, I was terrified. You know, I brought a friend. I made the doctor do not just the normal two layers of numbing cream but, like, four layers even though he"}
{"id": "1099465610", "date": "2022-05-17", "guest": "Frank Bruni", "title": "After a stroke blinded one eye, Frank Bruni focused on the future", "question_index": 11, "text": "Yeah. How did the trial work out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What happened with this drug?"}
{"id": "1099465610", "date": "2022-05-17", "guest": "Frank Bruni", "title": "After a stroke blinded one eye, Frank Bruni focused on the future", "question_index": 12, "text": "But not in your eye. Let's just say not in your eye", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, the trial worked out terribly. In fact, I ended up qualifying for it, like, meeting the criteria for two different clinical trials of treatments for my rare condition, the only two clinical trials"}
{"id": "1099465610", "date": "2022-05-17", "guest": "Frank Bruni", "title": "After a stroke blinded one eye, Frank Bruni focused on the future", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, the trial worked out terribly. In fact, I ended up qualifying for it, like, meeting the criteria for two different clinical trials of treatments for my rare condition, the only two clinical trials"}
{"id": "1099465610", "date": "2022-05-17", "guest": "Frank Bruni", "title": "After a stroke blinded one eye, Frank Bruni focused on the future", "question_index": 14, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Frank Bruni. He's a contributing opinion writer for The New York Times and author of the new memoir \"The Beauty Of Dusk.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I mean, I don't think - I think it would be humanly impossible to inject yourself in the eye. But I injected myself twice a week for six months in either the thigh or the stomach. I learned - I me"}
{"id": "1099465610", "date": "2022-05-17", "guest": "Frank Bruni", "title": "After a stroke blinded one eye, Frank Bruni focused on the future", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Frank Bruni, a contributing opinion writer for The New York Times and the paper's former chief restaurant critic, Rome bureau chief and White House correspondent. His new memoir, \"The Beauty Of Dusk,\" is about how his life changed after a rare kind of stroke left him blind in one eye. You learned - after you were diagnosed with this rare stroke that had blinded one eye, you learned that your partner of nine years had started having an affair just before your stroke. It first started before your stroke. And the relationship teetered for a while. And it ended, then resumed, teetered and then ended for good. What were your fears when you were single after nine years, and single at a time when you didn't know what your vision future was going to be? You were already blind in one eye with no hope of recovering that vision, facing the possibility of being blinded in the second eye.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I mean, I don't think - I think it would be humanly impossible to inject yourself in the eye. But I injected myself twice a week for six months in either the thigh or the stomach. I learned - I me"}
{"id": "1099465610", "date": "2022-05-17", "guest": "Frank Bruni", "title": "After a stroke blinded one eye, Frank Bruni focused on the future", "question_index": 16, "text": "Do you think that your partner was afraid of you becoming dependent?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, you know, the possibility of being blinded in the second eye was actually one of the reasons - when we had to decide whether to try to repair this relationship or not, it was one of the re"}
{"id": "1099465610", "date": "2022-05-17", "guest": "Frank Bruni", "title": "After a stroke blinded one eye, Frank Bruni focused on the future", "question_index": 17, "text": "So getting back to your eye and the rare stroke that left you blind in one eye and leaves you with some threat of going blind in your other eye, you wanted to be optimistic. But your mother was this, like, very, very optimistic person in a way that even when she had cancer and went through endless chemo and a couple of surgeries and remained really optimistic, you thought of it as kind of cheesy and full of cliches and bromides. And I think you started to feel differently about that when you were faced with your eye issues.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think so. But I don't know. Part of the problem with that relationship - and now we're - you know, we're really getting a little far afield. But that's cool. Part of the problem with that rela"}
{"id": "1099465610", "date": "2022-05-17", "guest": "Frank Bruni", "title": "After a stroke blinded one eye, Frank Bruni focused on the future", "question_index": 18, "text": "So how has this medical change in your life, this vision change in your life led to your thinking about aging and what to expect and what it might be like for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. No. I saw what she had modeled for me in a whole different and extremely positive and grateful light. It became clear to me early on, Terry, that when something like this happens, you're really "}
{"id": "1099465610", "date": "2022-05-17", "guest": "Frank Bruni", "title": "After a stroke blinded one eye, Frank Bruni focused on the future", "question_index": 19, "text": "Let's take another break here and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Frank Bruni. He's a contributing opinion writer for The New York Times and author of the new memoir \"The Beauty Of Dusk.\" We'll be back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I used to be extremely fearful of aging. I used to think, oh, you know, when I lose the ability to do X, I'm going to be inconsolable. When I lose the ability to do Y, it is going to plunge me into a "}
{"id": "1099465610", "date": "2022-05-17", "guest": "Frank Bruni", "title": "After a stroke blinded one eye, Frank Bruni focused on the future", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Frank Bruni, a contributing opinion writer for The New York Times and the paper's former restaurant critic, Rome bureau chief and White House correspondent. His new memoir, \"The Beauty Of Dusk,\" is about how his life changed after a rare kind of stroke left him blind in one eye. He's also author of the books Where You Go Is Not Who You'll Be: An Antidote To The College Admissions Mania,\" \"Ambling Into History: The Unlikely Odyssey of George W. Bush\" and a memoir about his conflicted relationship with food and his struggle with his weight called Born Round: A Story Of Family, Food And A Ferocious Appetite.\" You did make a big change in your life after losing vision in one eye. You had been a full-time columnist, opinion writer for The New York Times. But now you are still a contributing opinion writer, and you have a newsletter in The Times, but you also moved from Manhattan to Chapel Hill, N.C., and you're teaching at Duke University. You're a professor there. Had you wanted to do a little bit less opinion writing anyways? I always think that people who have to write opinion columns for a long time, like, how do you come up with so many opinions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I used to be extremely fearful of aging. I used to think, oh, you know, when I lose the ability to do X, I'm going to be inconsolable. When I lose the ability to do Y, it is going to plunge me into a "}
{"id": "1099465610", "date": "2022-05-17", "guest": "Frank Bruni", "title": "After a stroke blinded one eye, Frank Bruni focused on the future", "question_index": 21, "text": "You have to have so many opinions every week. And they have to be, like, not only clearly stated, but they have to be written as if, like, you really, firmly believe this", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1099465610", "date": "2022-05-17", "guest": "Frank Bruni", "title": "After a stroke blinded one eye, Frank Bruni focused on the future", "question_index": 22, "text": ". And so what was it like for you to write opinion columns for so long? You're still doing it, but I don't think as often.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1099465610", "date": "2022-05-17", "guest": "Frank Bruni", "title": "After a stroke blinded one eye, Frank Bruni focused on the future", "question_index": 23, "text": "When you became an opinion writer at the New York Times - and this was after you were a restaurant critic - you became the first out opinion writer at The Times, and you were - used that as an opportunity to often write about LGBTQ-related issues. Did you feel, like, a responsibility, too, since you were out and were very aware of LGBTQ issues, to make sure that you wrote pieces about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "crazily accurately, you know, my qualms and frustrations over time with opinion writing. When you have a firm opinion and when circumstances really inspire you, there's no privilege or blessing greate"}
{"id": "1099465610", "date": "2022-05-17", "guest": "Frank Bruni", "title": "After a stroke blinded one eye, Frank Bruni focused on the future", "question_index": 24, "text": "You came out when you were 18. And were you already out of high school?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Absolutely. I felt that responsibility less so as time went on because I'd written about them quite a bit in the beginning, but I felt that responsibility both in terms of my having this r"}
{"id": "1099465610", "date": "2022-05-17", "guest": "Frank Bruni", "title": "After a stroke blinded one eye, Frank Bruni focused on the future", "question_index": 25, "text": "Yeah, because you wrote that you thought obsessively about suicide when you were in high school. Can you talk about that a little bit? Like, how much of that had to do with being gay and not being able - and thinking that you couldn't really tell people? I don't know if you were bullied or just feeling that there was something wrong with you. Like, tell us what was - if - to the extent that you're comfortable, tell us what was upsetting you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was out of high school. I told maybe two or three very close friends in high school, and that was it. And then I kind of came out - to the extent that that word is applicable - when I was a freshman"}
{"id": "1099465610", "date": "2022-05-17", "guest": "Frank Bruni", "title": "After a stroke blinded one eye, Frank Bruni focused on the future", "question_index": 26, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Frank Bruni. He's a contributing opinion writer for The New York Times and author of the new memoir \"The Beauty Of Dusk\" about losing his vision in one eye. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that - I don't know how much of my suicidal thoughts were connected to being gay and fearful about what that meant for my future in my life and how much, you know, were a function of jus"}
{"id": "1099465610", "date": "2022-05-17", "guest": "Frank Bruni", "title": "After a stroke blinded one eye, Frank Bruni focused on the future", "question_index": 27, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Frank Bruni, a contributing opinion writer for The New York Times and the paper's former chief restaurant critic, Rome bureau chief and White House correspondent. His new memoir, \"The Beauty Of Dusk,\" is about how his life changed after a rare kind of stroke left him blind in one eye. I want to talk with you a little about the subject of your previous memoir, \"Born Round,\" which is a memoir about your issues with food. You know, you love food - very passionate about food - and often went through periods of eating too much of it. And those periods resulted in periods where your waist would, you know, expand by - you say, like, 6 inches. So given the issues that you had with food and with your weight, what was your reaction when you were asked to be a restaurant critic where eating, like, fantastic food and having to sample as much of it as you could was going to be your professional life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that - I don't know how much of my suicidal thoughts were connected to being gay and fearful about what that meant for my future in my life and how much, you know, were a function of jus"}
{"id": "1099465610", "date": "2022-05-17", "guest": "Frank Bruni", "title": "After a stroke blinded one eye, Frank Bruni focused on the future", "question_index": 28, "text": "How did you discipline yourself when you were reviewing restaurants?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I devoted much of a book to it so I could have the space to describe it. But I was probably at my food healthiest, at my trimmest and all of that during the 5 1/2 years when I was The New York Times r"}
{"id": "1099465610", "date": "2022-05-17", "guest": "Frank Bruni", "title": "After a stroke blinded one eye, Frank Bruni focused on the future", "question_index": 29, "text": "Did you find that when you were at your heaviest, in terms of your weight, that it really changed your self-image and your - how you saw your place in your world - in the world, and your ability to be social and be visible in the world?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When you - so if you are someone with a history of bingeing and purging and fad diets like I was, you're constantly telling yourself, I can pig out today 'cause I'm going to be better tomorrow. And th"}
{"id": "1099465610", "date": "2022-05-17", "guest": "Frank Bruni", "title": "After a stroke blinded one eye, Frank Bruni focused on the future", "question_index": 30, "text": "You hid your identity in ways that New York Times restaurant critics frequently do. You had, like, pseudonymous credit cards. And I was interested to learn that the - at that time, anyways, American Express and The New York Times had a relationship where they would give you these pseudonymous credit cards so that you could use different ones at different restaurants and never be recognized as the food critic. But didn't they eventually have pictures of you on the wall in the kitchen? That's what I always hear about restaurant critics.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, completely. I mean, I would - I mean, not only did it completely shut me down romantically, there were years when I didn't go out on a date, you know, or have any sort of sexual contact with anyon"}
{"id": "1099465610", "date": "2022-05-17", "guest": "Frank Bruni", "title": "After a stroke blinded one eye, Frank Bruni focused on the future", "question_index": 31, "text": "It's a real responsibility to know that you have a restaurant's fate in your hands, depending on whether you give it a good review or a bad review. How do you deal with that responsibility?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, they did. And sometimes, some of them would, like, snap a photo of one of those and show me. I remember being told that when I was named restaurant critic, Eric Ripert, the owner and chef of"}
{"id": "1099465610", "date": "2022-05-17", "guest": "Frank Bruni", "title": "After a stroke blinded one eye, Frank Bruni focused on the future", "question_index": 32, "text": "One of the things that made me laugh, reading about your life as a restaurant critic, was that you learned, I think, maybe after the fact that some people made reservations in your name. Like, you're hiding your identity so people don't spot you as a restaurant critic. And at the same time, people are making reservations in your name, hoping they'll get a great table and terrific, special service.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is an enormous responsibility. And I think if you're any kind of moral person, you think about it. And one of the main ways you deal with it is if you are visiting a kind of mom-and-pop restaurant "}
{"id": "1099465610", "date": "2022-05-17", "guest": "Frank Bruni", "title": "After a stroke blinded one eye, Frank Bruni focused on the future", "question_index": 33, "text": "My guest is Frank Bruni. He's a contributing opinion writer for The New York Times and author of the new memoir, \"The Beauty Of Dusk,\" about losing his vision in one eye. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And do you have any plan to come into our restaurant? And I'll say, no, no. I think you found one of my imposters. And what I don't know, Terry - and I very much wish I did - is what goes down when th"}
{"id": "1099465610", "date": "2022-05-17", "guest": "Frank Bruni", "title": "After a stroke blinded one eye, Frank Bruni focused on the future", "question_index": 34, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Frank Bruni, a contributing opinion writer for The New York Times and the paper's former chief restaurant critic, Rome bureau chief and White House correspondent. His new memoir, \"The Beauty Of Dusk,\" is about how his life changed after a rare kind of stroke left him blind in one eye. You covered George W. Bush's first presidential campaign in 2000. And one of the ways that the Republican base was rallied was culture war issues, including anti-LGBTQ positions. So what was it like for you to cover that campaign? And also, you wrote a book about George W Bush. And so you had personal contact with him, too. Did you ever try to convince him or really feel him out personally about where he really stood on LGBTQ issues, if he was really as anti-gay as some of the base was?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And do you have any plan to come into our restaurant? And I'll say, no, no. I think you found one of my imposters. And what I don't know, Terry - and I very much wish I did - is what goes down when th"}
{"id": "1099465610", "date": "2022-05-17", "guest": "Frank Bruni", "title": "After a stroke blinded one eye, Frank Bruni focused on the future", "question_index": 35, "text": "You came out when you were 18. So Reagan is president. The moral majority is really active. So you have all of these Christian fundamentalists, preachers at that time preaching this really anti-gay message, sending out literature to all of their members that were really anti-gay. And, you know, it's - this is part of what was being used to rally voters. Were you immune to that, or did that get to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't do that back then, and I was careful not to also because, you know, there were certain lines that you had to be conscious of in terms of I am a reporter in this situation. You know, I am not "}
{"id": "1099465610", "date": "2022-05-17", "guest": "Frank Bruni", "title": "After a stroke blinded one eye, Frank Bruni focused on the future", "question_index": 36, "text": "I assume that because of the AIDS epidemic, you lost some friends who were in your age group, maybe more than you care to count. But what impact did it have on you to know that, you know, intimate relations would leave you vulnerable, possibly to death, and to see friends your age have AIDS and die?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I wasn't immune to it. I mean, I full - I knew full well who Phyllis Schlafly and Anita Bryant were, you know, very much so. And on top of everything you just mentioned, along comes AIDS - right? "}
{"id": "1099465610", "date": "2022-05-17", "guest": "Frank Bruni", "title": "After a stroke blinded one eye, Frank Bruni focused on the future", "question_index": 37, "text": "Frank Bruni, it's been great talking with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was heartbreaking. And it was heartbreaking - it was doubly and triply heartbreaking because not only did you see friends and acquaintances die, but in some cases - thankfully not all - you saw fri"}
{"id": "1099465610", "date": "2022-05-17", "guest": "Frank Bruni", "title": "After a stroke blinded one eye, Frank Bruni focused on the future", "question_index": 38, "text": "Frank Bruni is a contributing opinion writer for The New York Times and a professor at Duke University. His new memoir is called \"The Beauty Of Dusk: On Vision Lost And Found.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll remember George Floyd as we approach the second anniversary of his murder. Our guests will be Washington Post reporters Robert Samuels and Tolu Olorunnipa. They spoke with Floyd's friends, family, teachers and coaches for their biography, which is called \"His Name Is George Floyd.\" I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "1099465610", "date": "2022-05-17", "guest": "Frank Bruni", "title": "After a stroke blinded one eye, Frank Bruni focused on the future", "question_index": 39, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering today from Al Banks. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 0, "text": "George Carlin, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And keep the country from winning the war."}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 1, "text": "Can you talk about what led to this routine - like, what you were thinking about, how you wrote it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks, Terry."}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 2, "text": "In your 1972 recording, you talk about how it's perfectly OK to say, don't prick your finger, but you can't say don't finger your blank.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't really know that there was a eureka moment or anything like that. I - what happened was I'd always held these attitudes. I've always been sort of anti-authoritarian. And I really don't l"}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 3, "text": "You can't reverse the two words. So comics work with the power of word. And in a way, the fact that certain words are supposed to be taboo, as you point out...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, you can't reverse the two words."}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 4, "text": "...That gives them power.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 5, "text": "And that makes those words more powerful for you when you want to use them. So do you feel like you've been able to work with the taboo nature of certain words and, you know, make that work in your favor?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 6, "text": "Like in that classic routine?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what..."}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 7, "text": "Did you ever expect that that comedy routine would be actually played on the radio or it would be part of a case that made it all the way to the Supreme Court and that it would become as important and famous a case as it became?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Yeah. That is an interestingly disguised way - and I don't mean you were trying to deceive me or anything - but it's a disguised way of saying, well, don't some people just use these for shock valu"}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 8, "text": "Before we get back to our 2004 interview with George Carlin, let's listen back to an excerpt from his 1990 FRESH AIR interview, in which we also talked about the court cases surrounding the broadcast of his seven dirty words routine. Did the judges in the various trials get the point, do you think?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I knew that it wasn't out of the question that it may be played on the radio. FM radio stations at that time - and there were commercial ones who qualified as what was called underground radio. "}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 9, "text": "You know, Lenny Bruce always said that when he was up on obscenity charges...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely not. I don't think they even listened. I'm sure they didn't listen to the record to hear it in its fullest and best context. I'm sure they read portions of the transcript. It's in the inter"}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 10, "text": "...That he wished he could perform the material for the judges, you know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 11, "text": "...Because they were hearing - you know, either reading transcriptions or they were hearing people quote the material.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 12, "text": "Oh, right. That's it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A cop was doing his act horribly."}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 13, "text": "Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, Bruce really felt, well, if they're going to get what it's about, they have to hear me do it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 14, "text": "Did you feel that way yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 15, "text": "George Carlin recorded in 1990. Let's get back to our 2004 interview with him. Do you remember how you were first exposed to four-letter words and what your reaction was when you first were?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I feel that the thing was rigged to start with, you know? I mean, I think the outcome was inevitable. But surely, it would have been fairer to the process to listen to the recording. And the oth"}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 16, "text": "Did language get you into trouble as a kid?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Now back to Terry's interview with George Carlin. When we left off, he was talking about how he was first exposed to four-letter words as a kid."}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I - because I liked language - as I was saying, my grandfather wrote out all of the works of Shakespeare in his adult life longhand because of the joy it gave him. Those were his words. I do it "}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 18, "text": "Although your mother was appalled finding this list of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think we may have to get a child psychologist for him 'cause she was telling him these words and showing this list. So, yeah, they got me in trouble that way. But at least it was a creative effort."}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 19, "text": "...Street words in your wallet, you earlier credited your mother with...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 20, "text": "...Having a love of language and helping...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. She was..."}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 21, "text": "...To instill it in you. How did her love of language express itself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And first of all, just to put it in perspective, the portion of my life where my mother and I were at odds is when you're supposed to differentiate yourself from the adult, the parent of the other sex"}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 23, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it was right back to the dictionary."}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 24, "text": "Why did you drop out of high school in ninth grade?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And another thing she would do with that newspaper - she'd be reading a columnist, someone who wrote well, and she would call me into the room and say, look at this. Listen to these words. Look how th"}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 25, "text": "Did you know in ninth grade when you dropped out that you wanted to be a comic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I could see that they weren't offering anything I really needed. I wasn't interested in merely having a credential. And I knew I had the skills I needed, and all I needed to do was to work hard on the"}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 26, "text": "Now, I know you made it onto radio before you became...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. I knew that in fifth grade. I wrote a little autobiography then. I said, I want to be a comedian or an impersonator or an announcer or an actor. And I had a plan. The plan was radio first 'c"}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 27, "text": "...Famous as a comic. What was your radio persona?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 28, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was on - the first job I had was in a place - Shreveport, La., which sounds like kind of an easily ignored place. But it had nine stations. It was a hot radio market, as they said. And we were"}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 29, "text": "Works like a charm. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And dedicate it to you? It was a little underhanded, but it sure worked a lot."}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 30, "text": "Would you talk your way through the instrumental, up to the vocal of the record?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 31, "text": "Now, you've always opposed authority. I mean, you dropped out of school in ninth grade.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2004 interview with George Carlin. A new documentary about him, \"George Carlin's American Dream,\" premieres tonight on HBO and HBO Max."}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 32, "text": "You joined the military. You were court...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 33, "text": "...Martialed twice in the military.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 34, "text": "Three times. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, three times."}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 35, "text": "Why would somebody who opposes authority so much volunteer to go into the military, which has such a hierarchical structure?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 36, "text": "And when you got in there, how'd you do inside? You mentioned you were court martialed three times. How did you respond to the authority within the military?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Well, at that time in our history, there was a draft. And the way you avoided the draft was to join. It's an odd thing. It sounds like a paradox, but it's true. The way you stayed out of the mili"}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 37, "text": "Who were the first comics that you heard where you thought, they nailed it; this is what life is about? Like, they just described...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Poorly to the authority. I was very good at the thing they trained me for, which was electronics and computer - analog computers. There was a system called a K system bomb system on the B-47, and I wa"}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 38, "text": "...Life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 39, "text": "How much do you think your comedy has changed when you first - from when you first started doing stand-up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I don't know. I know - the gist of your question, I can answer. Of course, comedy changed in the 1950s, when the individuals emerged. And nobody was all the same anymore. It used to be"}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 40, "text": "Were you performing to older audiences because those were the people who could buy the tickets in the places that you were performing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, of course, the times helped - you know, the changes illustrated by the times. I began in 1960. I went through about eight or nine years of what essentially were the extended 1950s, sort of a but"}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 41, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not strictly speaking. What happened was this - and I can do this briefly for you. I had always been this lawbreaker, outlaw-type kid and adolescent and Air Force guy, as you pointed out - never s"}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 42, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I never put those two things together. I never saw that they didn't go together."}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 43, "text": "Well, George Carlin, I'd like to ask you to end our interview by reading the final piece in your new book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I followed this other dream in the way that you did because the only way you could do it was to please people with mainstream, safe comedy. That's what the period demanded. And - so I did that unt"}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 44, "text": "And the book is called \"When Will Jesus Bring The Pork Chops?\" And this piece is called \"The Secret News.\" And you're welcome to say anything about writing it before you read it or to just read it, whatever you prefer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure. OK."}
{"id": "1100342905", "date": "2022-05-20", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'American Dream' documentary examines George Carlin's triumphs and demons", "question_index": 45, "text": "George Carlin, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have a big file called news. And it has a lot of odd news formats. And one of them was this one called \"The Secret News.\" And this was actually written and designed to be on an album, maybe, a studi"}
{"id": "1100906855", "date": "2022-05-24", "guest": "Roger Angell", "title": "Remembering 'New Yorker' editor and renowned baseball writer Roger Angell", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. For many fans of good sports writing, baseball season was also Roger Angell season. He wrote about the game for The New Yorker, where he was published most of his adult life. His first piece was published in 1944. In 1956, he became the magazine's fiction editor. He described The New Yorker as the family store. His mother, Katharine Sergeant Angell White, had worked there as an editor. His stepfather, essayist E.B. White, was a New Yorker writer and contributing editor. Angell's writing earned him a place in the Baseball Hall of Fame when he received a Career Excellence Award in 2014. Roger Angell died last week at the age of 101. We're going to listen back to an excerpt of the interview I recorded with him in 2001 after he'd written a book about pitcher David Cone.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1100906855", "date": "2022-05-24", "guest": "Roger Angell", "title": "Remembering 'New Yorker' editor and renowned baseball writer Roger Angell", "question_index": 1, "text": "Roger Angell, let's talk about your writing career a bit. You've been writing for The New Yorker since 1946, so that's 45 years. When you started writing for The New Yorker, your mother was the fiction editor. Your stepfather, E.B. White, was one of the magazine's star writers. Did it feel like the family business to you?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1100906855", "date": "2022-05-24", "guest": "Roger Angell", "title": "Remembering 'New Yorker' editor and renowned baseball writer Roger Angell", "question_index": 2, "text": "Your mother was fiction editor of The New Yorker, and this was in an era where not that many women even worked, and certainly most of the women who did work worked in traditional women's professions, and being fiction editor of The New Yorker doesn't fall in that category. Were you aware of how unusual it was to have your mother do what she was doing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it did. I mean, I didn't think in those terms then, but I really wanted to be a writer, I guess, and an editor, too, so I ended up doing both. And writing for The New Yorker seemed the natural t"}
{"id": "1100906855", "date": "2022-05-24", "guest": "Roger Angell", "title": "Remembering 'New Yorker' editor and renowned baseball writer Roger Angell", "question_index": 3, "text": "Your stepfather, E.B. White, was the co-writer of, you know, the most used style book, Strunk and White. Is that a stylebook you've used over the years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, I don't think I was sufficiently aware. I mean, I always admired her. And she thought of herself - she said - she didn't use the word feminist, but she spoke of herself as being a working woman"}
{"id": "1100906855", "date": "2022-05-24", "guest": "Roger Angell", "title": "Remembering 'New Yorker' editor and renowned baseball writer Roger Angell", "question_index": 4, "text": "Oh, see - this never helps me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". No, I'm sorry - a magazine which cares about that, a Magazine."}
{"id": "1100906855", "date": "2022-05-24", "guest": "Roger Angell", "title": "Remembering 'New Yorker' editor and renowned baseball writer Roger Angell", "question_index": 5, "text": "I'm still as confused as ever", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right."}
{"id": "1100906855", "date": "2022-05-24", "guest": "Roger Angell", "title": "Remembering 'New Yorker' editor and renowned baseball writer Roger Angell", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right."}
{"id": "1100906855", "date": "2022-05-24", "guest": "Roger Angell", "title": "Remembering 'New Yorker' editor and renowned baseball writer Roger Angell", "question_index": 7, "text": "You know, with that and which, I always say to myself, should I struggle again to figure out what the difference is between the two, or should I give up and figure most people don't really care anyways? What advice would you have for me on that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1100906855", "date": "2022-05-24", "guest": "Roger Angell", "title": "Remembering 'New Yorker' editor and renowned baseball writer Roger Angell", "question_index": 8, "text": "Give up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think you're right, that..."}
{"id": "1100906855", "date": "2022-05-24", "guest": "Roger Angell", "title": "Remembering 'New Yorker' editor and renowned baseball writer Roger Angell", "question_index": 9, "text": "My interview with Roger Angell was recorded in 2001. He died last week at the age of 101. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR. My guest will be poet Diana Goetsch. Her new memoir, \"This Body I Wore,\" is about transitioning to living as a woman when she was in her late 40s. We'll also talk about what it was like to grow up trans in a time when she didn't have the language, literature or subculture to help her understand what it meant to be trans. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't stop and think about it. I just put down what - I mean, part of my mind does this anyway. It usually gets it right. And I don't stop and say, is this the correct form? And I will - the big thi"}
{"id": "1100906855", "date": "2022-05-24", "guest": "Roger Angell", "title": "Remembering 'New Yorker' editor and renowned baseball writer Roger Angell", "question_index": 10, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't stop and think about it. I just put down what - I mean, part of my mind does this anyway. It usually gets it right. And I don't stop and say, is this the correct form? And I will - the big thi"}
{"id": "1101439528", "date": "2022-05-26", "guest": "Nina Jankowicz", "title": "How an expert on online disinformation and harassment became the target of both", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest Nina Jankowicz is the author of books about political disinformation and the harassment of women on social media. In the past month, she's been the target of both. In late April, the Department of Homeland Security announced the creation of the Disinformation Governance Board, whose mission would be recommending best practices to counter disinformation related to homeland security. Jankowicz was appointed to head this new board. The board and Jankowicz immediately became the targets of disinformation campaigns, mostly coming from the right. She was also blitzed with social media posts harassing and threatening her. This month, the board's work was suspended until further review, and Jankowicz resigned. Nina Jankowicz is the author of the new book \"How To Be A Woman Online: Surviving Abuse And Harassment, And How To Fight Back.\" Her previous book is titled \"How To Lose The Information War: Russia, Fake News, And The Future Of Conflict.\" In 2016 and '17, she worked in Ukraine as a Fulbright fellow, advising the Ukrainian Foreign Ministry on how to fight disinformation. She's also been a disinformation fellow at the Woodrow Wilson International Center. Nina Jankowicz, welcome to FRESH AIR. Let's start with the Disinformation Governance Board. What was its mission?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1101439528", "date": "2022-05-26", "guest": "Nina Jankowicz", "title": "How an expert on online disinformation and harassment became the target of both", "question_index": 1, "text": "Well, let me stop you there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thanks for having me, Terry. The Disinformation Governance Board was widely misunderstood and mischaracterized. It was an internal working group that was meant to coordinate a very large departm"}
{"id": "1101439528", "date": "2022-05-26", "guest": "Nina Jankowicz", "title": "How an expert on online disinformation and harassment became the target of both", "question_index": 2, "text": "What was the narrative? How was the board mischaracterized?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1101439528", "date": "2022-05-26", "guest": "Nina Jankowicz", "title": "How an expert on online disinformation and harassment became the target of both", "question_index": 3, "text": "Can you be a little more specific about what kind of disinformation you were trying to combat and what some of your recommendations might have been?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there were a lot of folks, mostly on the conservative side of the spectrum, who said that the board was going to be a ministry of truth, a la George Orwell's \"1984,\" that we were going to adjudi"}
{"id": "1101439528", "date": "2022-05-26", "guest": "Nina Jankowicz", "title": "How an expert on online disinformation and harassment became the target of both", "question_index": 4, "text": "You were personally attacked, and you're the author of a book about how women are often attacked on social media. Tell us about the nature of the attacks on social media against you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. So the Department of Homeland Security has a broad set of equities. Many of your listeners are probably familiar with the Department of Homeland Security's Cybersecurity and Infrastructure"}
{"id": "1101439528", "date": "2022-05-26", "guest": "Nina Jankowicz", "title": "How an expert on online disinformation and harassment became the target of both", "question_index": 5, "text": "It sounds like you could go on for hours just listing these threats. It sounds awful. And a lot of the attacks that you've described were gendered. They're about you as a woman or you as a pregnant woman, but they're not about you. I mean, they're very specific to being a woman. Is that something that's really common? I mean, you wrote a whole book that's just been published about harassment online of women.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Terry, it's been about a month now - actually, exactly a month - since the board was announced, and the attacks are still continuing today. It has been an incessant flow of filth and vitriol, fr"}
{"id": "1101439528", "date": "2022-05-26", "guest": "Nina Jankowicz", "title": "How an expert on online disinformation and harassment became the target of both", "question_index": 6, "text": "The campaign of hatred and threats that was directed against you on social media, do you think that was an organized campaign - like, just a lot of individuals reading the news and deciding that you were the enemy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I think when there is a woman, especially a young, opinionated woman who has a history of expressing herself online, that is an easy target for many people. And I've studied this phenome"}
{"id": "1101439528", "date": "2022-05-26", "guest": "Nina Jankowicz", "title": "How an expert on online disinformation and harassment became the target of both", "question_index": 7, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Nina Jankowicz. She was appointed to head the Disinformation Governance Board, which was created by the Department of Homeland Security. She was appointed in March. The board was announced in April. And this month, after a disinformation campaign against the board and against Jankowicz and a lot of personal attacks online against Jankowicz, the board's work was suspended, and Jankowicz resigned. She also has a new book called \"How To Be A Woman Online: Surviving Abuse And Harassment And How To Fight Back.\" So we'll talk more about that after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I haven't done a full analysis of what happened. I do one day want to pull all of the tweets and kind of look to see if there's any networks that are visible there. But what I think happened is the"}
{"id": "1101439528", "date": "2022-05-26", "guest": "Nina Jankowicz", "title": "How an expert on online disinformation and harassment became the target of both", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Nina Jankowicz. She was appointed to head the Disinformation Governance Board, which was created by the Department of Homeland Security to make recommendations about how to best deal with disinformation. But the board and Jankowicz became targeted with disinformation, and Jankowicz was also harassed and threatened on social media. The board's work was suspended. She resigned. She's the author of the new book, \"How To Be A Woman Online: Surviving Abuse And Harassment And How To Fight Back.\" She's also the author of an earlier book called \"How To Lose The Information War: Russia, Fake News, and The Future Of Conflict.\" How did the Department of Homeland Security deal with the attacks against the governance board, you know, the Disinformation Governance Board, and the attacks against you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I haven't done a full analysis of what happened. I do one day want to pull all of the tweets and kind of look to see if there's any networks that are visible there. But what I think happened is the"}
{"id": "1101439528", "date": "2022-05-26", "guest": "Nina Jankowicz", "title": "How an expert on online disinformation and harassment became the target of both", "question_index": 9, "text": "What do you think the department could have done?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Terry, I think the department itself was caught flat-footed by both of those strings of attacks. I think government, in general, has to understand that we're living in the internet era right now"}
{"id": "1101439528", "date": "2022-05-26", "guest": "Nina Jankowicz", "title": "How an expert on online disinformation and harassment became the target of both", "question_index": 10, "text": "Would you have liked to directly respond to some of the harassing tweets? Like, what would your advice to yourself have been if you had the freedom to say what you wanted to in response on social media?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had hoped that we would not necessarily fight fire with fire, but address the ridiculous claims that the board was going to be a ministry of truth immediately and head on, you know? Put out informat"}
{"id": "1101439528", "date": "2022-05-26", "guest": "Nina Jankowicz", "title": "How an expert on online disinformation and harassment became the target of both", "question_index": 11, "text": "Nina, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Nina Jankowicz. And she was appointed to head the Department of Homeland Security's Disinformation Governance Board. But after the board and Nina Jankowicz herself became the targets of disinformation, and she became the target of online harassment, the board was suspended and she resigned. She's also the author of the new book \"How To Be A Woman Online: Surviving Abuse And Harassment And How To Fight Back.\" We'll talk more after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would have first tried to clarify some of my past statements. Unfortunately, I don't think it matters to a lot of people, because I've tried to clarify since then and I'm just being told that I'm ly"}
{"id": "1101439528", "date": "2022-05-26", "guest": "Nina Jankowicz", "title": "How an expert on online disinformation and harassment became the target of both", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Nina Jankowicz, author of the new book \"How To Be A Woman Online: Surviving Abuse And Harassment, And How To Fight Back.\" She's also the author of \"How To Lose The Information War: Russia, Fake News, And The Future Of Conflict.\" In 2016 and 2017, she worked in Ukraine advising the Ministry of Foreign Affairs on how to fight disinformation. It was part of her work as a Fulbright fellow. In March, she was appointed to head the Department of Homeland Security's new Disinformation Government Board to recommend best practices to fight disinformation. The board's work was suspended this month after the board became the target of disinformation. Jankowicz herself became the target of disinformation and online attacks and harassment. She resigned from the board. You know, you've pointed out that it's sometimes hard to attack an institution because an institution seems kind of faceless. It's much easier to attack an individual and to defame the individual. So if you want to attack an institution, one approach is to single out one of the leaders of the institution, preferably a woman or a person of color, and defame them because it's so easy to attack women and Black people, people of color, trans people, gay people online. That's the way the game is played online. So I think you wrote this before you were appointed to head the Disinformation Governance Board. But can you talk a little bit about why you think it's easier to attack individuals than agencies or institutions and how that applies to your personal experience?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would have first tried to clarify some of my past statements. Unfortunately, I don't think it matters to a lot of people, because I've tried to clarify since then and I'm just being told that I'm ly"}
{"id": "1101439528", "date": "2022-05-26", "guest": "Nina Jankowicz", "title": "How an expert on online disinformation and harassment became the target of both", "question_index": 13, "text": "In 2020, before the election, you led a study analyzing posts about 13 women candidates, including Kamala Harris. What did you find?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think, you know, this Disinformation Governance Board was a faceless body, and I became the main character of the attacks against the board. I was ridiculed. I was, again, threatened and abuse"}
{"id": "1101439528", "date": "2022-05-26", "guest": "Nina Jankowicz", "title": "How an expert on online disinformation and harassment became the target of both", "question_index": 14, "text": "You are nine months pregnant right now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This was a pretty staggering study. A lot of the study is of online abuse and harassment just focused on one platform for a short amount of time. And we decided we're going to look at six platforms. W"}
{"id": "1101439528", "date": "2022-05-26", "guest": "Nina Jankowicz", "title": "How an expert on online disinformation and harassment became the target of both", "question_index": 15, "text": "You know, when I read that you had found transphobic attacks against Kamala Harris, I thought - did I read that wrong? - because, you know, Kamala Harris is not trans. And then you described a Photoshopped meme alleging that she was secretly a man named Kamal Aroush.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But that's the sort of thing that makes it more difficult for tech companies to push back on this abuse. I'm not making an excuse for them. They absolutely need to do a better job. But it's somethin"}
{"id": "1101439528", "date": "2022-05-26", "guest": "Nina Jankowicz", "title": "How an expert on online disinformation and harassment became the target of both", "question_index": 16, "text": "Like, what do you know about where that originated? And did that get any traction?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1101439528", "date": "2022-05-26", "guest": "Nina Jankowicz", "title": "How an expert on online disinformation and harassment became the target of both", "question_index": 17, "text": "That you're secretly a man?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it got some traction among Qanon conspirators. And this is, actually, a pretty normal kind of vector of attack against women in power. The idea - and it's something I've received as well. The idea "}
{"id": "1101439528", "date": "2022-05-26", "guest": "Nina Jankowicz", "title": "How an expert on online disinformation and harassment became the target of both", "question_index": 18, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Nina Jankowicz. She's the author of the new book \"How To Be A Woman Online: Surviving Abuse And Harassment, And How To Fight Back.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes. They believe that I am transgender. I've been asked, you know, what private parts I have. In fact, I got an email just before we went on air today that was asking me if I was secretly a man."}
{"id": "1101439528", "date": "2022-05-26", "guest": "Nina Jankowicz", "title": "How an expert on online disinformation and harassment became the target of both", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Nina Jankowicz, author of the new book \"How To Be A Woman Online: Surviving Abuse And Harassment, And How To Fight Back.\" She's also the author of \"How To Lose The Information War: Russia, Fake News, And The Future Of Conflict.\" In March, she was appointed to head the new Department of Homeland Security's Disinformation Governance Board, which was supposed to advise best practices for fighting disinformation. But there was a campaign of disinformation against the board and against Nina Jankowicz, as well as a whole slew of harassing social media posts against her. The board's work has been suspended. Nina Jankowicz has resigned from the board. Can you talk a little bit more about the candidates who you studied in 2020, the women candidates, and the social media attacks against them that had to do with their gender, sexuality or just being a woman?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes. They believe that I am transgender. I've been asked, you know, what private parts I have. In fact, I got an email just before we went on air today that was asking me if I was secretly a man."}
{"id": "1101439528", "date": "2022-05-26", "guest": "Nina Jankowicz", "title": "How an expert on online disinformation and harassment became the target of both", "question_index": 20, "text": "So Kamala Harris is, of course, now vice president. Did any of the other 12 women candidates who you studied and examined social media attacks on them, did any of them drop out of politics because of the online harassment?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So of course, we saw a lot about Kamala Harris, given her position and the fact that she was going to be the first Black and South Asian woman vice president - so a lot of racist attacks, a lot "}
{"id": "1101439528", "date": "2022-05-26", "guest": "Nina Jankowicz", "title": "How an expert on online disinformation and harassment became the target of both", "question_index": 21, "text": "What advice do you have for women who are attacked online? Do you suggest, you know, muting or blocking the people who are harassing you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think any of them did. These were all pretty well-established figures at the time. So we're talking about Ilhan Omar as well and, again, the women in international politics that I mentioned. U"}
{"id": "1101439528", "date": "2022-05-26", "guest": "Nina Jankowicz", "title": "How an expert on online disinformation and harassment became the target of both", "question_index": 22, "text": "Can you explain the difference for people who aren't on social media?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a delicate dance and one that I've had to think about a lot the past couple of weeks. Muting tends to be better because it doesn't give individuals who are blocked the chance to see that they're "}
{"id": "1101439528", "date": "2022-05-26", "guest": "Nina Jankowicz", "title": "How an expert on online disinformation and harassment became the target of both", "question_index": 23, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Nina Jankowicz. Her new book is called \"How To Be A Woman Online: Surviving Abuse And Harassment, And How To Fight Back.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So when you mute somebody, you just never see the content that they're sending you. They're shouting into the void forever, which in and of itself is quite satisfying. When you block someone, yo"}
{"id": "1101439528", "date": "2022-05-26", "guest": "Nina Jankowicz", "title": "How an expert on online disinformation and harassment became the target of both", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Nina Jankowicz, author of the new book \"How To Be A Woman Online: Surviving Abuse And Harassment, And How To Fight Back.\" She's also the author of the book \"How To Lose The Information War: Russia, Fake News, And The Future Of Conflict.\" In 2016 and 2017, she worked in Ukraine advising the Ministry of Foreign Affairs on how to fight disinformation. It was part of her work as a Fulbright fellow. Let's talk a little bit about the social media companies like Twitter and like Facebook. They've talked about making changes to help prevent disinformation online and harassment online. Have those policies been effective at all, do you think?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So when you mute somebody, you just never see the content that they're sending you. They're shouting into the void forever, which in and of itself is quite satisfying. When you block someone, yo"}
{"id": "1101439528", "date": "2022-05-26", "guest": "Nina Jankowicz", "title": "How an expert on online disinformation and harassment became the target of both", "question_index": 25, "text": "Have you been tempted to just sign off social media?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've seen some positive steps coming from Twitter in particular. I think they are starting to think about these issues really thoughtfully, changing the way that their reporting process works, for ins"}
{"id": "1101439528", "date": "2022-05-26", "guest": "Nina Jankowicz", "title": "How an expert on online disinformation and harassment became the target of both", "question_index": 26, "text": "So one more question for you, and this is kind of personal. But you're due to give birth next week, I think.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". One of the things that I've mourned, actually, is the fact that, you know, I can't use it as openly as I did before. I used to have an open TikTok account, an open Instagram account. When I was in c"}
{"id": "1101439528", "date": "2022-05-26", "guest": "Nina Jankowicz", "title": "How an expert on online disinformation and harassment became the target of both", "question_index": 27, "text": "And you've been going through one of the most, like, troubling periods of your life, where you've been so harassed and attacked online and threatened while you're on the verge of giving birth. And I think, you know, it's a very upsetting time of your life to be attacked. Can you talk a little bit about those two things happening simultaneously and what that's been like for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm hmm."}
{"id": "1101439528", "date": "2022-05-26", "guest": "Nina Jankowicz", "title": "How an expert on online disinformation and harassment became the target of both", "question_index": 28, "text": "Nina Jankowicz, thank you so much for talking with us, and I wish you good health. I wish you an easy delivery and a wonderful life with your new baby.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I really resent that people have taken away what should be an extremely happy, exciting time of my life from me. I joke a little bit that I should be, like, floating around Washington among the cherry"}
{"id": "1101439528", "date": "2022-05-26", "guest": "Nina Jankowicz", "title": "How an expert on online disinformation and harassment became the target of both", "question_index": 29, "text": "Nina Jankowicz is the author of the new book \"How To Be A Woman Online: Surviving Abuse And Harassment, And How To Fight Back.\" I am proud to end today's show by sharing the announcement that this week FRESH AIR received the Peabody Award in the institutional category, honoring the show for its 35 years as a national program. I can think of no better way to celebrate our 35th anniversary, which was May 11. What makes this celebration even sweeter is that the Peabody was presented by Stephen Colbert. If you're interested in hearing from our producers and getting staff recommendations, check out our newsletter, which you can subscribe to via our website at freshair.npr.org.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much, Terry. It was a pleasure."}
{"id": "1101439528", "date": "2022-05-26", "guest": "Nina Jankowicz", "title": "How an expert on online disinformation and harassment became the target of both", "question_index": 30, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham with additional engineering today from Charlie Kaier. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Seth Kelley and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much, Terry. It was a pleasure."}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 0, "text": "Angela Lansbury, welcome to FRESH AIR. And congratulations on the Kennedy Center Honor.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Angela Lansbury grew up in England and came to the U.S. during World War II. Her first role in a movie came at age 17, playing the maid in the 1944 film \"Gaslight.\" She was nominated for an Academy Aw"}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 1, "text": "Let's start with your childhood. You grew up in London. Your mother was an actress. What kind of work did she do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. Thank you so much."}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 2, "text": "During World War II, when you were young, your brothers were sent to a family in the countryside, as many British children were, to get away from the bombing. But you wanted to stay home. And - but your school was moving, so you weren't able to go to school. I think you worked out a deal with your mother that you would be tutored at home and then also take singing and dancing lessons.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mother was an Irish actress, and she appeared in a number of various plays during the time that she was working. She started off doing Shaw - George Bernard Shaw and also Shakespeare, and became al"}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 3, "text": "So you started drama school during the war, staying home in London. What convinced you then that you liked acting after being so ambivalent about your mother's career?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's absolutely true. And I - thank goodness I chose to do that or that she agreed to let me do that. But I think she also was quite happy to have me stay with her as I was the only - I was the sort"}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 4, "text": "You came to the United States with your mother. I believe it was during World War II.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I realized that what I was going to be doing in the theater really was quite different, although I didn't realize that at the time. But what I experienced at drama school was the fun and the exc"}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 5, "text": "Did you and your mother both want to act in the United States?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. We came in 1940, which was a terrible year because it was the - during the year was the onset of the really big bombing of Britain. Liverpool was bombed right after we left on our ship, which was"}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 6, "text": "So sometimes you worked as a team. Did you ever feel competitive with your mother?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. My mother wanted to pick up eventually her career. And when we first arrived, we used to do readings together. We'd do Shakespeare. We'd go to the various schools all around, preferably in New Yo"}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 7, "text": "She felt competitive towards you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I never felt competitive with her. No. I know that eventually - I think it crept in. You know, that green-eyed monster sort of crept in from my mother's side. But..."}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 8, "text": "And you started getting roles in movies.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I think so, because she thought - after all, she was a woman. She was only in her 40s. And she was a most beautiful woman, my mother. And she wanted to have a career. She was a very earnest and t"}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 9, "text": "Yeah. Let's talk about what led to that audition. You thought you were auditioning for - you thought you thought your first role would be in \"The Picture Of Dorian Gray.\" Can you explain how you got a lead for that movie but ended up making \"Gaslight\" first?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I - eventually, of course, when we moved out to Los Angeles, and I got my first big interview, and I got the part. So my career in movies was jump-started by my being accepted for the role of Na"}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 10, "text": "Why don't we hear a short scene from your screen debut in \"Gaslight?\" And in this movie, Charles Boyer plays a husband who's trying to drive his wife mad. His wife is played by Ingrid Bergman. And this is basically a scheme to institutionalize her so he could take her jewels and her money. You play the maid that he hires. And in this scene, you're getting flirtatious with him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Well, I was introduced to the studio, which was MGM, by a young man who was being considered for the role of Dorian Gray. His name was Michael Dyne. And he arranged that the casting director woul"}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 11, "text": "Angela Lansbury, was it...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Nancy Oliver) No, sir. She's not the only one in the house, is she?"}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 12, "text": "Was that your bit of business, singing that vaudeville kind of song, \"Up In A Balloon?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What cheek."}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 13, "text": "Were the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, nothing was my idea in that movie. That was all prearranged and thought up by George Cukor. Yeah."}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 14, "text": "Were there things that you were very naive and in the dark about in that film that you tried to cover up for so that people wouldn't know how green you were?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And John Van Druten, who was the screenwriter of that."}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 15, "text": "Do you remember any of the more helpful or interesting directions that Cukor gave you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can't honestly say, except by my on-set demeanor. I think my on-set demeanor was a very, very careful, covered, rather shy attitude about what I was doing. And when I say that, I don't mean that I w"}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 16, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, simply that he felt that she was a naughty, rather dirty girl, and that was the way he saw her. He felt she was - and when I gave him that, he thought it was terribly funny. And he encouraged me"}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 17, "text": "Well, you were still a minor when you were making \"Gaslight.\" What kind of special provisions were made for you on the set?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2000 interview with Broadway, movie and TV actress Angela Lansbury. When we left off, they were talking about her first film role at the age of 17 in the m"}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 18, "text": "\"Gaslight\" is one of those movies with really nice black-and-white lighting. Do you remember getting lit for the film and what that process was like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So - but in fact, I had been smoking for a couple of years."}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 19, "text": "You were nominated for an Oscar, Best Supporting Actress, for that first role. You lost to Ethel Barrymore", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very well. I do remember very well. Joseph Ruttenberg was the DP on that. And he was an extraordinarily careful, painstaking person when it came to lighting women. And I think some of the shots of Ing"}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 20, "text": ". Must have been pretty heady to be nominated your first time out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very well. I do remember very well. Joseph Ruttenberg was the DP on that. And he was an extraordinarily careful, painstaking person when it came to lighting women. And I think some of the shots of Ing"}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 21, "text": "Did you feel comfortable at MGM, in Hollywood in the '40s, with all the kind of glamour and publicity surrounding the movies then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Couldn't believe it."}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 22, "text": "I haven't seen it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a hard adjustment for me. I wanted to play the game, you know? I wanted to be like the rest of the girls. I was still enough of an adolescent in my heart. Although, I always say that I sort of "}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 23, "text": "Well, how did you feel about playing the older women?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No? Well, it was one of those films of the 1940s with Deborah Kerr. And I was playing older women. I was playing Frank Morgan's wife as the Queen of France in \"The Three Musketeers.\" I got to dress up"}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 24, "text": "It's funny because your situation was the opposite of Judy Garland. For years, she tried to get out of playing the juvenile and grow up in a movie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I hated it. I mean, I didn't enjoy it. And I fought it. And I tried hard. I would go to the studio heads and say, look; don't make me play this part. But they would sort of say, well, if you will play"}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 25, "text": "Your first marriage was to Richard Cromwell, who you later found out was actually gay. And that revelation, I think, is what ended the marriage. You must have been shocked when you found out.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's 2000 interview with Broadway, film and TV actress Angela Lansbury. Her movie credits include \"Gaslight,\" \"The Manc"}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 26, "text": "So you say you learned a lot from him. What are some of the things you learned?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wouldn't say, yes, I was, but it's a very curious thing. I had known so many gay people in Hollywood. It just had never really sunk in. It was - I was in love with love. And I just - it was a shock,"}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 27, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he had an extraordinary group of friends, wonderful people in the business who I never would have met. He was a great friend of Joan Crawford's and, oh, Bill Holden and Zachary Scott and all kin"}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 28, "text": "Did you learn a different style of singing from being exposed to all the singers in his collection?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Listeners will remember those. But, you know - and we would listen to music all the time. He also had a tremendous classical repertoire of music in his collection."}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 29, "text": "Can you talk about any specific aspect of singing that you learned during that period?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Oh, sure. You - and I picked up a tremendous amount at MGM, working with Kay Thompson and Judy and Andy Williams, all those. Andy was a backup singer in those days. So, I mean, you - if - "}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 30, "text": "Well, I feel a song queue coming on.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Learned about lyrics, learned about clarity, learned that, in my instance, because I'm an actress, I am going to sing the scene. I'm going to sing the scene. I'm not going to just spout the lyric. I'm"}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 31, "text": "I think maybe this is a good time to talk about Broadway. Let me ask you about the British production of \"Gypsy,\" in which you played Gypsy Rose Lee's mother, the role...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Learned about lyrics, learned about clarity, learned that, in my instance, because I'm an actress, I am going to sing the scene. I'm going to sing the scene. I'm not going to just spout the lyric. I'm"}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 32, "text": "...Originated on Broadway by Ethel Merman. And you were asked to do this in England by Arthur Laurents, who wrote the book and directed the British production. You knew Merman's work. I assume you probably saw her on Broadway in \"Gypsy.\" How did you feel about taking on a role that she had done?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 33, "text": "Well, I should mention that in Craig Zadan's book about Stephen Sondheim, Arthur Laurents really praises your interpretation of this role. And he says, with no disrespect to Merman, it's the first time that the number \"Rose's Turn\" was done the way it should be. It's hair-raising, and it's because Angie's an actress. I know of no one else in the musical theater who can sing as well as she does and be the actress that she is. So I'd like to play part of \"Rose's Turn.\" And this is, you know, toward the end of \"Gypsy.\" You've been the stage mother, you know, throughout your life. And Gypsy Rose Lee has become - your daughter has become a famous stripper. But you're wondering, when's it your turn? When's it your turn to be onstage and to be before the lights? So you're onstage in front of an empty theater and singing your number. And anything else you want to say about it before we hear it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was completely nonplussed. I said no. In 1972, when Barry Brown and Arthur and Fritz Holt, Barry's partner, asked me to do \"Gypsy\" in London, I said, you've got to be kidding. I said, I could no mor"}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 34, "text": "Well, if this isn't an example of singing the scene, as the way you put it, I don't know what it is - what is. Here's Angela Lansbury.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, except to say that it's one of the most rewarding pieces of musical theater to perform there is and one of the hardest."}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 35, "text": "Angela Lansbury, doing that number must have been exhausting. I mean, it seems like it would be so emotionally depleting. Forget everything that it does with your throat, but just the emotion of it. What was it like right after that number on - you know, onstage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Rose, singing) Why did I do it? What did it get me? Scrapbooks full of me in the background - give them love, and what does it get you? What does it get you? One quick look as each of them leaves "}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 36, "text": "You made \"The Manchurian Candidate\" in 1962. And in this movie, a terrific movie, you're a manipulative, domineering mother and wife who's trying to promote the political career of your husband. And it turns out you're actually part of a conspiracy to assassinate the political opponent and take over the country. And in this scene, you're telling your son, who has been brainwashed, that he has to be the assassin.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2000 interview with Broadway movie and TV actress Angela Lansbury. Next month, she's scheduled to be honored at the Tonys with a special Lifetime Achieveme"}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 37, "text": "Wow", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Mrs. Iselin) You are to shoot the presidential nominee through the head. And Johnny will rise gallantly to his feet and lift Ben Arthur's body in his arms, stand in front of the microphones and be"}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 38, "text": ". And at the end of that scene...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Mrs. Iselin) You are to shoot the presidential nominee through the head. And Johnny will rise gallantly to his feet and lift Ben Arthur's body in his arms, stand in front of the microphones and be"}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 39, "text": "Yes. And at the end of that scene, before you send your son off to kill the candidate, you kiss him on each cheek, then kiss him fully on the mouth.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well-written speech."}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 40, "text": "How did do you feel about that scene?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes."}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 41, "text": "And how did you feel about playing such a really evil role?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", very telling."}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 42, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They are the best."}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 43, "text": "We've talked about your long and really wonderful career on stage and screen. I think some of our listeners will know you best from television for your work on \"Murder, She Wrote\" as Jessica Fletcher...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Any actress will tell you that evil roles to play are the best. You can go to town, you know? And in that instance, I think that woman had so many layers and so many personas in a sense, she was rivet"}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 44, "text": "...Who has solved God knows how many murders.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Jessica Fletcher."}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 45, "text": "Over the years that you did that show, did you ever count how many murders you solved?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 46, "text": "Oh, really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Two hundred sixty-four."}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 47, "text": "What was it like for you after playing so many different roles over the years to settle into one role for several years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 48, "text": "What did you like about her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I first started \"Murder, She Wrote,\" I thought it would last maybe two, three years, you know, or maybe a year if we were lucky. But when it extended and I realized the deep inroads it had made i"}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 49, "text": "You know, the press release for the Kennedy Center Honor describes you as a beloved actress, which I think is pretty accurate. But do you feel beloved?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was the sort of woman I like, and therefore, I enjoyed playing her. And being Jessica was second nature to me because she embodied all of the qualities that I like about women. She was valiant and"}
{"id": "1101435407", "date": "2022-05-27", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury looks back on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 50, "text": "Well, I thank you so very much for talking with us. And congratulations again on the Kennedy Center Honor.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "From playing Jessica Fletcher, yes, I do. I do feel a sense of tremendous warmth from the American public who have known and loved that program. I really do. I know they - I don't know whether they're"}
{"id": "1102621352", "date": "2022-06-02", "guest": "Robert Downen", "title": "How the Southern Baptist Convention covered up its widespread sexual abuse scandal", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. A sexual abuse scandal has shaken up the Southern Baptist Church. A report issued just over a week ago confirmed that survivors who came forward alleging they were sexually abused by church leaders, ministers, workers and volunteers were ignored or silenced by church leadership and often disparaged. Meanwhile, the church kept a secret list of over 700 offenders. The list was even kept secret from most of the church's leaders. This new report was commissioned by the Southern Baptist Convention in response to a series of articles investigating widespread sexual abuse in the church. The series titled \"Abuse Of Faith\" was published in 2019 after a six-month investigation by a team of reporters from the Houston Chronicle and the San Antonio Express-News, a team headed by John Tedesco and my guest Robert Downen, a reporter for the Houston Chronicle. The reporters found that hundreds of Southern Baptist Convention church leaders and volunteers had been criminally charged with sex crimes since 2000. The series also detailed numerous incidents in which denominational leaders mishandled, ignored or concealed warnings that Southern Baptist churches were being targeted by predators. Robert Downen, welcome to FRESH AIR. And congratulations on your reporting. Let's start with the finding of the independent report commissioned by the Southern Baptist Convention, the report that was the result of your investigative series, along with a team of reporters. So there was a secret list that was compiled for the church dating back to 2007. Would you describe this secret list of abusers that was kept by the church?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1102621352", "date": "2022-06-02", "guest": "Robert Downen", "title": "How the Southern Baptist Convention covered up its widespread sexual abuse scandal", "question_index": 1, "text": "Well, what was the point of the list if suddenly people on it were still working in churches?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So this was a list that was commissioned at the behest of a top SBC leader and one of their longtime lawyers. And basically, what it did is it compiled Google Alerts and other news stories about crimi"}
{"id": "1102621352", "date": "2022-06-02", "guest": "Robert Downen", "title": "How the Southern Baptist Convention covered up its widespread sexual abuse scandal", "question_index": 2, "text": "So what kind of people were on this list - ministers, church leaders?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We still don't have exact rationale for why it was being kept, other than that it was being kept by the same people who were pushing back on those exact reforms publicly."}
{"id": "1102621352", "date": "2022-06-02", "guest": "Robert Downen", "title": "How the Southern Baptist Convention covered up its widespread sexual abuse scandal", "question_index": 3, "text": "This list was compiled at the request of Augie Boto, who is the former Southern Baptist Convention general counsel. Why was their general counsel requesting this list, do you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It includes everyone from church volunteers to ministers to pastors, anyone who was credibly accused of sex offenses. And that includes mostly criminal charges, but a handful of, you know, confessions"}
{"id": "1102621352", "date": "2022-06-02", "guest": "Robert Downen", "title": "How the Southern Baptist Convention covered up its widespread sexual abuse scandal", "question_index": 4, "text": "Survivors of sexual abuse who came forward, you know, alleging abuse or were silenced, they were told to just forgive or that they were doing the devil's work. They were disparaged. Can you talk a little bit about their reaction that people who came forward got from the church?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "From what we know from last week's reports, there were internal deliberations between the top SBC lawyers about the - both practicality of that list in preventing the abuse, but also what it would or "}
{"id": "1102621352", "date": "2022-06-02", "guest": "Robert Downen", "title": "How the Southern Baptist Convention covered up its widespread sexual abuse scandal", "question_index": 5, "text": "This secret list of abusers within the Southern Baptist Church existed at the same time church leaders were saying it's impossible to keep track of accusations and offenders because of the structure of the Southern Baptist Convention. What is it about the structure of the Southern Baptist Church that was used as an excuse?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. So many of the survivors that we have spoken to over the years have routinely told us that while the physical assault that they endured was traumatizing, the far more damaging part was when they"}
{"id": "1102621352", "date": "2022-06-02", "guest": "Robert Downen", "title": "How the Southern Baptist Convention covered up its widespread sexual abuse scandal", "question_index": 6, "text": "One of the activists who was arguing for reform within the church said being a preacher in the church was a perfect profession for a con artist. All he has to do is talk a good talk and convince people he'd been called by God and he gets to become a Southern Baptist minister. Then he can infiltrate the entirety of Southern Baptist Convention, moved from church to church, from state to state, go to bigger churches and more prominent churches where he has more influence and power. Do you think that's an accurate description? Is that what has happened? Did the system make it possible for abusers to keep their positions and even advance?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think there are a lot of people who want to draw parallels between this report and the Catholic Church's abuse scandal. And while obviously there are similarities, there are real structural differen"}
{"id": "1102621352", "date": "2022-06-02", "guest": "Robert Downen", "title": "How the Southern Baptist Convention covered up its widespread sexual abuse scandal", "question_index": 7, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Robert Downen, a reporter for the Houston Chronicle. We'll talk more about the Southern Baptist sexual abuse scandal and Downen's own reporting that helped uncover the abuse after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I think that there's really no doubt that that is a true statement. Christa Brown, the survivor that you're quoting, I believe later in that quote described it as a poor sieve of the denominat"}
{"id": "1102621352", "date": "2022-06-02", "guest": "Robert Downen", "title": "How the Southern Baptist Convention covered up its widespread sexual abuse scandal", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Robert Downen of the Houston Chronicle. He was one of the lead reporters on a series of articles published in 2019 titled \"Abuse Of Faith\" investigating allegations of sexual abuse in the Southern Baptist Church. That series led the Southern Baptist Convention to commission an independent investigation. That investigation led to a report released just over a week ago that confirmed widespread sexual abuse and attempts to cover it up and discredit survivors who came forward. Can you say a little bit more about the Southern Baptist Convention's own justification for the lack of oversight within the church and, you know, the lack of a larger structure, the lack of, you know, bookkeeping of how ministers were ordained or where they were ordained, you know, what is described by the church as, you know, church autonomy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I think that there's really no doubt that that is a true statement. Christa Brown, the survivor that you're quoting, I believe later in that quote described it as a poor sieve of the denominat"}
{"id": "1102621352", "date": "2022-06-02", "guest": "Robert Downen", "title": "How the Southern Baptist Convention covered up its widespread sexual abuse scandal", "question_index": 9, "text": "Let's talk about some of the survivors of the sexual abuse. What was the age range and the gender that you've learned about through the report that was issued by the independent group commissioned to do this investigation and through your own reporting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And I think that that does, you know, again, speak to this idea of the Southern Baptist Convention as exactly that, a convention of churches that convene for a few days a year and make - and po"}
{"id": "1102621352", "date": "2022-06-02", "guest": "Robert Downen", "title": "How the Southern Baptist Convention covered up its widespread sexual abuse scandal", "question_index": 10, "text": "You interviewed a lot of the survivors for - the ones who were sexually abused when they were children. What were some of the lasting effects they told you about some of the trauma that they were still dealing with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I - we haven't had time to analyze the full, you know, 200-page \"database,\" quote-unquote, that was made public last week. You know, we haven't had time to analyze it with that specificity. But in "}
{"id": "1102621352", "date": "2022-06-02", "guest": "Robert Downen", "title": "How the Southern Baptist Convention covered up its widespread sexual abuse scandal", "question_index": 11, "text": "Did you speak to any of the parents of the children who were abused? I'm wondering if the church tried to discredit the children to their own parents.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it really was across the board. You know, we had people who spoke openly and had clearly - you know, I don't want to say moved past their attack but were very able to talk about it and had, cl"}
{"id": "1102621352", "date": "2022-06-02", "guest": "Robert Downen", "title": "How the Southern Baptist Convention covered up its widespread sexual abuse scandal", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Robert Downen, a reporter for the Houston Chronicle. We'll talk more about the sexual abuse scandal in the Southern Baptist Church after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it was not a common theme, but, you know, we definitely spoke to many people who quickly found out that the community that they had considered a family on Sunday, by Tuesday "}
{"id": "1102621352", "date": "2022-06-02", "guest": "Robert Downen", "title": "How the Southern Baptist Convention covered up its widespread sexual abuse scandal", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Robert Downen, a reporter for the Houston Chronicle. He was one of the lead reporters on a series of articles published in 2019, titled \"Abuse Of Faith,\" investigating allegations of sexual abuse in the Southern Baptist Church. That series led the Southern Baptist Convention to commission an independent investigation. That investigation led to a report released just over a week ago that confirmed widespread sexual abuse and attempts to cover it up and discredit survivors who came forward. Now that this abuse has been documented not only in the investigative articles that you were part of, but also in this independent investigation that was just released, what reforms are these revelations leading to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it was not a common theme, but, you know, we definitely spoke to many people who quickly found out that the community that they had considered a family on Sunday, by Tuesday "}
{"id": "1102621352", "date": "2022-06-02", "guest": "Robert Downen", "title": "How the Southern Baptist Convention covered up its widespread sexual abuse scandal", "question_index": 14, "text": "Do you know if the SBC is worried about what this will mean for the SBC's reputation, if it will alienate members of Southern Baptist churches and if it will decrease their fundraising efforts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the Guidepost report included a bunch of reforms, among them and, I think, probably the most importance is this idea of the database, this essential mechanism through which churches can track peopl"}
{"id": "1102621352", "date": "2022-06-02", "guest": "Robert Downen", "title": "How the Southern Baptist Convention covered up its widespread sexual abuse scandal", "question_index": 15, "text": "Robert, let's talk about your own reporting with a team of reporters from the Houston Chronicle and the San Antonio Express-News. One of the things your team did was set up a confidential tip line where survivors of abuse could report their story. And it was your call to try to track them down or not and their call, I suppose, to decide whether to talk with you. So when you were first getting those calls, how did you separate the kind of crank calls from the real survivors? How did you fact-check the stories?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, in just the last few years, we've seen - including in the Guidepost report from last week, we've seen SBC leaders saying, you know, this - abuse is a distraction from evangelism. And we need"}
{"id": "1102621352", "date": "2022-06-02", "guest": "Robert Downen", "title": "How the Southern Baptist Convention covered up its widespread sexual abuse scandal", "question_index": 16, "text": "So in this new independent report that was released, Johnny Hunt, a former Southern Baptist Convention president, was accused of sexually assaulting a woman from his church in 2010, one month after his presidency ended because of term limits. Tell us something about him and the charge against him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think we really got that many crank calls. I think, within the first few weeks, we had 500+ people just reaching out to us alone. You know, we reached out to the National Sexual Assault Hotlin"}
{"id": "1102621352", "date": "2022-06-02", "guest": "Robert Downen", "title": "How the Southern Baptist Convention covered up its widespread sexual abuse scandal", "question_index": 17, "text": "Let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Robert Downen, a reporter for the Houston Chronicle. We'll talk more about the Southern Baptist sexual abuse scandal and Downen's own reporting that uncovered the abuse after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I think that that finding really, you know, as far as the bombshells findings of that report, that had, you know - clearly was among them. Johnny Hunt was kind of this guy who straddled the old ver"}
{"id": "1102621352", "date": "2022-06-02", "guest": "Robert Downen", "title": "How the Southern Baptist Convention covered up its widespread sexual abuse scandal", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Robert Downen of the Houston Chronicle. He was one of the lead reporters on a series of articles published in 2019, titled \"Abuse of Faith,\" investigating allegations of sexual abuse in the Southern Baptist Church. That series led the Southern Baptist Convention to commission an independent investigation. That investigation led to a report released just over a week ago that confirmed widespread sexual abuse and attempts to cover it up and discredit survivors who came forward. You found that some sexual abuse victims within the church were asked to forgive their abusers or get abortions. Now, the church opposes abortion, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I think that that finding really, you know, as far as the bombshells findings of that report, that had, you know - clearly was among them. Johnny Hunt was kind of this guy who straddled the old ver"}
{"id": "1102621352", "date": "2022-06-02", "guest": "Robert Downen", "title": "How the Southern Baptist Convention covered up its widespread sexual abuse scandal", "question_index": 19, "text": "What was your reaction to that? And I'm wondering if any of the survivors actually did get an abortion. I know, like, some of them were too young to even get pregnant, but some of them weren't. Did you meet anybody who actually followed the advice and got an abortion?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1102621352", "date": "2022-06-02", "guest": "Robert Downen", "title": "How the Southern Baptist Convention covered up its widespread sexual abuse scandal", "question_index": 20, "text": "What a really horrible mixed message to get from your own church after a trauma.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can't say that I personally did. But, you know, the first person we featured in our very first story was a woman named Debbie Vasquez, who, you know, says she was repeatedly abused by her pastor, st"}
{"id": "1102621352", "date": "2022-06-02", "guest": "Robert Downen", "title": "How the Southern Baptist Convention covered up its widespread sexual abuse scandal", "question_index": 21, "text": "So for Debbie Vasquez, who was allegedly raped by her pastor and got pregnant, did she carry the child to term? Is - has she parented that child?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And, I mean, time and time again, we hear from survivors that the abuse was awful but paled in comparison to the retraumatization from church leaders who they thought they could trust. And, you "}
{"id": "1102621352", "date": "2022-06-02", "guest": "Robert Downen", "title": "How the Southern Baptist Convention covered up its widespread sexual abuse scandal", "question_index": 22, "text": "Why was she concerned about her child's safety? What were the threats that she was afraid of?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, she did. She refused church leaders' demands that she have an abortion and later uprooted her life and moved abroad out of fear for her daughter's safety. And it wasn't until, I think, around 200"}
{"id": "1102621352", "date": "2022-06-02", "guest": "Robert Downen", "title": "How the Southern Baptist Convention covered up its widespread sexual abuse scandal", "question_index": 23, "text": "When you were doing the 2019 investigation into sexual abuse in the church, how did survivors react knowing that you were taking their allegations seriously, and in some cases, like, you were proving those allegations were actually accurate, that these people needed to be believed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she says that, you know, during the alleged assaults over years, at one point, you know, she's still half deaf from what she says was her pastor firing a gun next to her head during one assault."}
{"id": "1102621352", "date": "2022-06-02", "guest": "Robert Downen", "title": "How the Southern Baptist Convention covered up its widespread sexual abuse scandal", "question_index": 24, "text": "Robert Downen, thank you so much for talking with us. And thank you for your reporting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know - sorry. I'm getting emotional here. It's actually really sad. One of the things that's really been heavy this week is that for the first time, you know, we featured in our stories this week "}
{"id": "1102621352", "date": "2022-06-02", "guest": "Robert Downen", "title": "How the Southern Baptist Convention covered up its widespread sexual abuse scandal", "question_index": 25, "text": "Robert Downey in as a reporter for the Houston Chronicle and was a lead reporter on the 2019 series \"Abuse Of Faith\" about sexual abuse in the Southern Baptist Church. After we take a short break, John Powers will review the new British TV series \"This Is Going To Hurt\" starring Ben Whishaw. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me."}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 0, "text": "That's Ray Liotta on \"Shades Of Blue\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Matt Wozniak) Let me explain to you how this works. I (inaudible) you because you keep your business contained and you don't cause me any aggravation. We both know that if I burned you down tonigh"}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 1, "text": ". Ray Liotta, welcome to FRESH AIR. You're going to go easy on me, right? You're going to be nice to me, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Matt Wozniak) Let me explain to you how this works. I (inaudible) you because you keep your business contained and you don't cause me any aggravation. We both know that if I burned you down tonigh"}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 2, "text": "You were. Yeah. And they were getting in his eyes and his nose and his mouth. And he was, like, choking and burning and not really liking your particular form of interrogation", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I will. I will. I think I was throwing ashes on him - I think - is what I was doing."}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I will. I will. I think I was throwing ashes on him - I think - is what I was doing."}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 4, "text": "So how did you get the part on \"Shades Of Blue\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He deserved it."}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 5, "text": "So you said that you wanted, you know, a 13-part series, which is why you signed on, one of the reasons why you signed onto \"Shades Of Blue.\" What do you want from a series? Like, why did you want one?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It came to me. I was looking to do a 13-episode-type show that there's so many of now. And Jennifer was already set. It was her piece and I read it, liked it. I heard that Barry Levinson was going to "}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 6, "text": "So I can understand your frustration with independent films. Like, the independent of film from just a few years ago \"Killing Them Softly\" is a terrific performance, and very few people saw the film. So it must be frustrating to put in such a good performance and then not many people see it. But, of course, when you signed up, you don't know if it's going to be a big cult film or if it's just going to disappear.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To get better movie parts, to tell you the the God's honest truth. I, you know, I've been lucky enough to do and work in this business for years, but I wasn't getting the exact kind of parts that that"}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 7, "text": "So I'm sure you've spoken about \"Goodfellas\" many times during your career, but bear with me while I ask you a few questions about it, because I know our listeners will want to hear about it. Is that OK with you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And a lot of times, a movie would come along, and I got to play the lead part where I wasn't the maniac, but it was a smaller type independent movie. And I've always felt that part of this game is to "}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 8, "text": "Swell. So \"Goodfellas,\" of course, a 1990 film. You played Henry Hill. And it's based on the Nicholas Pileggi novel \"Wiseguy,\" in which Henry Hill tells his whole story, starting from when he's a kid and he aspires to be, like, the smalltime gangsters in the neighborhood. He ends up being their assistant, and ends up being, you know, really, like, a part of that whole ring and ends up in the witness protection program. So I know that you listened to tapes of Henry Hill.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 9, "text": "What interested you in his voice? What were you able to pick up from - and I assume with these FBI tapes, was this being - him being debriefed by the FBI?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 10, "text": "Oh, for his book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. These were the tapes of - that Nick Pileggi gave me 'cause when he was writing the book - right."}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So he talked to Henry for hours. And once I got the film, I went and talked to Nick to just to start, you know, start doing my homework. And he said, here, listen to this - these tapes. Well, I listen"}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 12, "text": "So your voice is very important in this 'cause you're not only portraying the character on screen, but you're doing voiceover throughout the film. So let me play the opening voiceover of the film in which - this is a flashback where your character is young. But you're doing the voiceover as an adult looking back on your childhood.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But that's basically what I did. So that told me a lot about Henry was he was just going to do what he wanted to do. And the biggest thing that I learned from it was just how casual they were, how cas"}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 13, "text": "That's my guest, Ray Liotta, in \"Goodfellas.\" It's just so interesting to me how low his sights were set as a kid. You know, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Henry Hill) To me, being a gangster was better than being president of the United States. Even before I first wandered into the cab stand for an afterschool job, I knew I wanted to be a part of th"}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 14, "text": "...He wanted to be the guy that could park - like, double-park in front of the hydrant. And you're not going to get a ticket, you know", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 15, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 16, "text": "So listening through the potato chips when you were listening to the tapes of Henry Hill, did you pick up a lot of slang that he used - because there's, you know, expressions through the film that you assume were a part of that, you know, wiseguy culture. So did you pick up, like, language kind of things that you thought were really interesting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, I guess different strokes for different folks. I guess when you grow up like that and when you're growing up in New York and your father isn't making a lot of money, to see people who are "}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 17, "text": "Martin Scorsese was very close with his mother and even did a documentary about his mother. I assume he really understood what it was like for you to have a mother who was very sick.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm a big believer that the script is your bible. And the script - and a good one - tells you everything that you need to know. And I just committed to the script. I learned everything - I learned - I"}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 18, "text": "When we left off, we were talking about \"Goodfellas.\" And there's a very famous scene, the laughing scene, in which you and a bunch of the small-time gangsters that you hang out with, including Tommy, who's played by Joe Pesci, you're at your favorite, like, restaurant bar hangout. You're at a table. And the Joe Pesci character, Tommy, is telling this story. Everybody's laughing at the story. You're laughing the hardest. And after the story ends, he looks at you and he says, what's so funny? So let's play part of that scene. And the scene starts with you just laughing a lot at the end of his story.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2016 interview with actor Ray Liotta, who died last week at age 67. His string of memorable film appearances included \"Something Wild,\" \"Goodfellas\" and \"F"}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 19, "text": "That's Ray Liotta and Joe Pesci in a scene from \"Goodfellas.\" So that's such a crazy scene. Like, the Joe Pesci character is so crazy. Like, that's an example of it because you had every reason to think that he was actually threatening you because that's how crazy he is. There's a scene where he shoots the Michael Imperioli character in the foot just kind of for no reason and later just kills him. So what was behind that scene? Like, what's the difference between how that scene looked in the original script and how it looked onscreen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Tommy DeVito) I almost had him. I almost had him. You stuttering prick, yeah. Frankie, was he shaking? I wonder about you sometimes, Henry. You may fold under questioning."}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 20, "text": "You mean because that's a lot of rehearsal or a little rehearsal?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was totally improv during - Joe was telling a story, we had two weeks of rehearsal, which is basically unheard of with making movies, but we had two weeks..."}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 21, "text": "That's a lot.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 22, "text": "What our listeners can't see is that in that scene, you're not only laughing loudly, but it's like visually you are laughing. Like, your mouth is like way open as you laugh. Like, your whole face is shaped like a laugh, as if like you're trying to prove, like, this is funny. I am enjoying myself. I'm all in on this joke. And there's even a collage on YouTube of your laughter through the movie. Was that a thing for you when you were making it that you thought that this character had to just, like, demonstrate that he thought something was funny and that he was enjoying the laugh?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You don't usually rehearse like that. It was just Lorraine, Bob, Joe and myself and Marty. And Joe is a great storyteller. And he was telling a story - that actually happened to him at a restaurant on"}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 23, "text": "Is that the way you laugh?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's the way I laugh."}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 24, "text": "So you told us about the potato chip eating interviews on cassette that you listened to of Henry Hill. Did you meet him in person, like, in a secret location when he was in the witness protection program?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. If I think something is funny, I think it's funny. And I just let it out. I'm amused by a lot of things. I love humor. I'm constantly joking around. It blows my friends' minds that - I've never "}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 25, "text": "Probably your most famous film is \"Goodfellas.\" But people who are young don't necessarily know much about anything except current films, and that's kind of the joke in an episode of \"Modern Family\" that you just guest-starred on. And I want to play a clip from that. It's a really funny episode. And in this episode, the three kids from the family are...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's 2016 interview with actor Ray Liotta, the star of Martin Scorsese's \"Goodfellas,\" who also played memorable roles "}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 26, "text": "They want to treat their uncle to a special gift for his birthday, and it's kind of last minute. So the three teenage Dunphy kids decide to buy a map to the stars' homes in Hollywood and take their uncle, who loves Barbra Streisand, to Barbra Streisand's house. So they take him there. And the uncle is played by Jesse Tyler Ferguson. They take him there, and instead of seeing Barbra Streisand in front of the house, they see you in the front yard, you as Ray Liotta. And - but only the uncle recognizes you. The kids have no idea who you are. So you're trying to tell the kids who you are by listing some of your biggest films.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 27, "text": "That's Ray Liotta guest-starring on an episode of \"Modern Family.\" That's really funny. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Ray Liotta) See; that's an old actor's trick for a perfect smile."}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 28, "text": "I wonder if it's like a rite of passage, like an initiation thing into manhood, where fathers sit down their sons and go, son, you're old enough now to see \"Goodfellas.\" It's a great film.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As far as what you were saying to begin with, in terms of kids knowing or not knowing, I do have kids that age coming up to me, mostly young boys, from their fathers - the fathers pass along music and"}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 29, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It could be. I don't know. All I can say is I've - my career has been up and down. And I like it much better being up. And when it's up, part of that is people coming up to you and saying things. I re"}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 30, "text": "Yeah. You played Sinatra in \"The Rat Pack,\" the HBO movie in which Don Cheadle was Sammy Davis Jr.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then I end up playing him, and now I can't - you know, now if he's on, you know, I listen to the Frank Sinatra station the majority of the time."}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 31, "text": "Yeah. Joe Mantegna was Dean Martin. And you had to play Sinatra. That's not easy", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he was great."}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 32, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he was great."}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 33, "text": "So what makes people think of you when they think of Sinatra? Did you sing before?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I turned it down a bunch of times. I wouldn't do it. I was first asked to play him by Tina Sinatra or Nancy, one of the Sinatra - his daughters, back when they did Movie of the Weeks. And they were do"}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I started out - I never, ever wanted to be an actor. It came time to go to college. My dad said, go wherever you want. I applied. I got into the University of Miami. This was 1973. And at that time, b"}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 35, "text": "I remember, I'm telling you now", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I got into the University of Miami. I had no idea what it was that I wanted to do. So I just went - I was just going to take liberal arts. I got to the head of the line, and they said, because you don"}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 36, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I got into the University of Miami. I had no idea what it was that I wanted to do. So I just went - I was just going to take liberal arts. I got to the head of the line, and they said, because you don"}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 37, "text": "Well, I'm just going to savor the image of you doing the Freddie while singing a song from \"Pippin.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was a dance called the Freddie. So I started doing the Freddie as my dance was - 'course they're saying, you're supposed to be singing - you're supposed to be dancing as you're singing. So I jus"}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 38, "text": "The Freddie was just like the goofiest dance ever. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did."}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 39, "text": "Yeah, it's kind of, like, say your arms are at your side. You move them up parallel to the ground and, like, kick your arm - kick your leg to the left and kick your leg to the right. It's almost like a calisthenics exercise.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was crazy. See, and I've said that before. And I've done that on talk shows. And you're the only person who I've ever talked to who remembers the Freddie."}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 40, "text": "It's the silliest - it was a novelty record with a novelty dance.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 41, "text": "Totally silly. Love it. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep."}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 42, "text": "You started your career in a soap opera, \"Another World,\" which was one of the really, really big soaps. And we have a short clip we're going to play from that. OK.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2016 interview with actor Ray Liotta, who died last week at age 67. His string of memorable film appearances included \"Something Wild,\" \"Goodfellas\" and \"F"}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 43, "text": "And I'll confess, this is from the internet. I haven't seen the whole episode. I can't really set it up too well, except to say that you play Joe Perrini.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 44, "text": "And you were on the soap opera, I think, from '78 to '81.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Joey Perrini, yep."}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 45, "text": "And you've just come back to town. You're talking to your ex-brother-in-law about your failed marriage to this guy's sister. And you speak first.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That sounds about right. Yep."}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 46, "text": "OK. So that is so soap opera. You were married to an heiress who wasn't really an heiress.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Joey Perrini) Look. The girl I married was named Kit Farrow (ph), right? She never existed. So everything that we did just didn't really happen. I'm not mad about it Or anything else. That's just "}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 47, "text": "Oh, really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yes. But what happened was the love of my life, Eileen, died after I gave her a Saint Christopher medal up on a rock under the moon. I'll never forget the line. I proposed to her. With the moon "}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 48, "text": "Oh, no.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. My mouth is open really wide, laughing, now that you brought that up. And I ended up in the hospital."}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 49, "text": "At this point, I don't know if you're talking about your life or the soap opera. This is the soap opera.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've been taken of - for weeks, I'm being taken care of by this nurse. Well, like I just say, this nurse, I end up falling for her. But she lies to me."}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 50, "text": "So was she really wealthy or was she faking it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. See how good the soaps are? You can learn a lot that. That's natural you could be. And I end up marrying her, but then eventually find out that she was the richest woman in America. And she s"}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 51, "text": "She was really - OK", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Man, she had cash."}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 52, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Man, she had cash."}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 53, "text": "So if you don't mind my asking - I know you were adopted at the age of about six months. How important to you was it to find out who your birth parents were, or at least who your birth mother was? Was that an issue for you? Did you pursue that, and did that affect your life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, so I ended up realizing - coming to my senses and realized that I loved her. And we got back together. And one of our last scenes is we go off skiing to Switzerland. And that was it. That's when"}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 54, "text": "About your birth mother?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I used to use it a lot - being adopted - especially when you're going out with a girl or looking to find out a girl. I'd say, hey, how you doing. The first five minutes, I'd somehow get in that I "}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 55, "text": "Because records were starting to be opened about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And at that time, on all the Oprah shows and Maury - and this was 17 years ago - a lot of the shows were about locating friends, family, mothers, fathers. Every show was about that."}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 56, "text": "You were 44 then, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. It just made good television, I guess. I don't know. I have no idea why they all started doing it, but they did. And at the end of it was this guy's name. It was Troy. I don't remember t"}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 57, "text": "So if it was a big issue in your mind, emotionally, that you were given up, that you were given up for adoption, and if that hung over you for a lot of your life, you felt rejected as a result, did you ever have a long talk with your parents about adopting you? Or was it like, they told you you were adopted, you knew you were adopted and then you just didn't talk about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And also, all this information came to me."}
{"id": "1102845250", "date": "2022-06-03", "guest": "Ray Liotta", "title": "Remembering 'Goodfellas' actor Ray Liotta", "question_index": 58, "text": "Well, I want to thank you so much for talking with us. It's really been terrific to talk with you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's it - didn't talk about it at all. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty sure they told me - I did - for show-and-tell in kindergarten, I told people the story that I was adopted. It never came up. It"}
{"id": "1103287397", "date": "2022-06-06", "guest": "Dawn Staley", "title": "Inspired by the Sixers, basketball star Dawn Staley forged her own path on the court", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Dawn Staley, is a star of women's basketball as a player and a coach. In April, she won her second NCAA championship as head coach of the South Carolina Gamecocks. She won three Olympic gold medals as a player and one as head coach. At the 2004 Summer Olympics, she had the honor of carrying the flag and leading the athletes to the opening ceremony. She's witnessed the growth in popularity and revenue of women's basketball and is one of the reasons for that growth. In 1999, just two years after the WNBA started play, she joined the WNBA team the Charlotte Sting. Before that, she played in the short-lived American Basketball League. She has special significance in Philadelphia, the city where our show is produced. She grew up in the Raymond Rosen housing projects in North Philly and started her coaching career a few blocks away at Temple University. There are streets named after her near Temple and the Colonial Life Arena in Columbia, S.C. I spoke with Dawn Staley May 17 at a WHYY Zoom event, during which she received the WHYY Lifelong Learning Award. Coach Staley, welcome. I want to talk about you, but I first want to say something about Brittney Griner, which is to say I want you to say something about Brittney Griner. She is still detained in Russia. Her detainment has been extended again. I assume that you know her. I know you have been really advocating in every way that you can for more attention to her detainment and everything that can be done for her release. Tell us a little bit. We know she's a fantastic player. Tell us a little bit about who she is as a person.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1103287397", "date": "2022-06-06", "guest": "Dawn Staley", "title": "Inspired by the Sixers, basketball star Dawn Staley forged her own path on the court", "question_index": 1, "text": "Well, thank you for the work you're doing, trying to get her released. Let's talk about you. You've reached the heights as a player and as a coach. But when you were first asked to be a coach at Temple University, as we heard, you turned them down. Why were you so reluctant to coach given that you've got such a gift for it, as you later learned?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Brittney Griner - I mean, she's wrongly detained. Our U.S. State Department has determined that. But who Brittney Griner is - I mean, she's a fun-loving person. She's a giver. I know one of the founda"}
{"id": "1103287397", "date": "2022-06-06", "guest": "Dawn Staley", "title": "Inspired by the Sixers, basketball star Dawn Staley forged her own path on the court", "question_index": 2, "text": "How do you think being a point guard as a player prepared you to be a coach?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think sometimes, when you are and have been - and that was me at that time. I was singularly focused on my career as a player. I was 29 years old. I was still playing professional basketball. "}
{"id": "1103287397", "date": "2022-06-06", "guest": "Dawn Staley", "title": "Inspired by the Sixers, basketball star Dawn Staley forged her own path on the court", "question_index": 3, "text": "You were obsessed with basketball from a very young age. What kind of future did you see for yourself in the game? You were born in 1970. The WNBA didn't start until - the games didn't start until '97. And then - and you joined in '99, two years later. In '96, the American Basketball League started, and you were a member of that. But then, you know, it folded within two years. So, like, did you see any kind of future for yourself in basketball as a girl when you were growing up, outside of like, you know, the courts in the neighborhood?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As a point guard, you know, the point guard is the position on the floor that really runs it. You're the conductor. You're the coach out there on the floor. You're the extension of the coach that's on"}
{"id": "1103287397", "date": "2022-06-06", "guest": "Dawn Staley", "title": "Inspired by the Sixers, basketball star Dawn Staley forged her own path on the court", "question_index": 4, "text": "When you decided you wanted to be the next Maurice Cheeks, did you think, I'm going to play on the - in the men's teams; I'm going to be the first woman in the NBA?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, here's the thing. Here's the thing about imagination. It gives you an opportunity to dream, no matter, you know, how outlandish my dreams were. Like, I thought I was going to play in the NBA. I "}
{"id": "1103287397", "date": "2022-06-06", "guest": "Dawn Staley", "title": "Inspired by the Sixers, basketball star Dawn Staley forged her own path on the court", "question_index": 5, "text": "So women's basketball has really changed since you started playing in women's professional leagues and, of course, the Olympics, too. But - and part of that change is because of you, because you were such a good player and now such a great coach. It's gotten - become more popular. There's more revenue. Tell us one or two of the things that have changed in women's basketball that you think are the most dramatic. And I'm sure you can think of many, many.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I didn't think about being the first. You know, I didn't visualize me just being the first. I just - it was something that - that carrot that was dangled in front of my - in front of me. And"}
{"id": "1103287397", "date": "2022-06-06", "guest": "Dawn Staley", "title": "Inspired by the Sixers, basketball star Dawn Staley forged her own path on the court", "question_index": 6, "text": "Right, which you didn't have.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the biggest thing that nowadays - we've had - you know, the WNBA is starting its 26th year. So every young player that is 25 and under - they've had the carrot of the WNBA dangled in front of "}
{"id": "1103287397", "date": "2022-06-06", "guest": "Dawn Staley", "title": "Inspired by the Sixers, basketball star Dawn Staley forged her own path on the court", "question_index": 7, "text": "My guest is women's basketball star Dawn Staley. In April, she won her second NCAA championship as head coach of the South Carolina Gamecocks. We'll be back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I had the NBA, you know? It's the same as - yeah, I had the NBA. But when you're able to see other women doing something that you want to do, it drives you to work harder. So I think because of t"}
{"id": "1103287397", "date": "2022-06-06", "guest": "Dawn Staley", "title": "Inspired by the Sixers, basketball star Dawn Staley forged her own path on the court", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with women's basketball star Dawn Staley, head coach of the South Carolina Gamecocks. In April, her team won its second NCAA championship. She's also a former WNBA player and won three Olympic gold medals as a player and one as head coach. You grew up in the Raymond Rosen housing projects in North Philly. Tell us a little bit what the projects were like then. And you grew up in the '70s and '80s.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I had the NBA, you know? It's the same as - yeah, I had the NBA. But when you're able to see other women doing something that you want to do, it drives you to work harder. So I think because of t"}
{"id": "1103287397", "date": "2022-06-06", "guest": "Dawn Staley", "title": "Inspired by the Sixers, basketball star Dawn Staley forged her own path on the court", "question_index": 9, "text": "These were garden apartments, not a high-rise.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For me, you know, the projects was a way of life. Like, I didn't see myself as poor. Like, my family didn't see ourselves as poor. I mean, we saw themselves as working-class people who worked hard, yo"}
{"id": "1103287397", "date": "2022-06-06", "guest": "Dawn Staley", "title": "Inspired by the Sixers, basketball star Dawn Staley forged her own path on the court", "question_index": 10, "text": "Wait, wait, wait. Didn't she sometimes use, like, a cable or a switch of some sort to discipline her children?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not yet, yeah. Here's the thing. All of my siblings that are older than me - they had an experience in the high-rises. I've never had an experience of living in the high-rises. So I think of myself as"}
{"id": "1103287397", "date": "2022-06-06", "guest": "Dawn Staley", "title": "Inspired by the Sixers, basketball star Dawn Staley forged her own path on the court", "question_index": 11, "text": "Nowadays that would be considered child abuse. How did you think of it then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Extension cords, switches, anything that was in her reach."}
{"id": "1103287397", "date": "2022-06-06", "guest": "Dawn Staley", "title": "Inspired by the Sixers, basketball star Dawn Staley forged her own path on the court", "question_index": 12, "text": "So there's a kind of famous story about you that when you were a kid and you wanted to play with the boys, you'd bring your own basketball and tell them that if they wanted to use the basketball, they had to let you play. OK, so that was your in. But then what? Did they make it especially hard for you? How did they feel about playing with a girl? - 'cause I know for a lot of boys that would be considered, like, lowering themselves in some way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thought it was child abuse then. But there wasn't - not one finger would pick up a phone to call any type of hotline on my mother. But I look at how I am today, you know? And for me - I'm considered"}
{"id": "1103287397", "date": "2022-06-06", "guest": "Dawn Staley", "title": "Inspired by the Sixers, basketball star Dawn Staley forged her own path on the court", "question_index": 13, "text": "So you were used to playing with a, you know, regular-sized basketball. Women's basketball is - the ball's just, like, a little bit smaller, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah - I mean, obviously, the newness of having, like, one girl show up to the court. They're not welcoming at all. They weren't welcoming, and they shouldn't have been. I was treated like a newcomer,"}
{"id": "1103287397", "date": "2022-06-06", "guest": "Dawn Staley", "title": "Inspired by the Sixers, basketball star Dawn Staley forged her own path on the court", "question_index": 14, "text": "Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Well, back then, it was the same size. So we all played with the men's ball back in the day. And then I believe once I went to high school, at some point they changed the size of the ball. And I "}
{"id": "1103287397", "date": "2022-06-06", "guest": "Dawn Staley", "title": "Inspired by the Sixers, basketball star Dawn Staley forged her own path on the court", "question_index": 15, "text": "So you went on to play for the University of Virginia when you went to college there. And you were - you know, it was an NCAA team. I read that UVA, it was the first time you were really in an atmosphere, you know, an environment where there are a lot of white people. You weren't used to that. Can you talk a little bit about the transition going from, you know, living in the housing projects in North Philly to being at UVA?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because I was just used to playing with, you know, the basketball that I grew up playing with. It was - I mean, I had a hard time adjusting. I had a hard time adjusting to the women's ball because it "}
{"id": "1103287397", "date": "2022-06-06", "guest": "Dawn Staley", "title": "Inspired by the Sixers, basketball star Dawn Staley forged her own path on the court", "question_index": 16, "text": "How did you go from being inexpressive, not making eye contact, being kind of introverted, just expressing yourself through the game to being a coach where you really have to communicate with people? I mean, you're probably part psychologist and therapist as well as, you know, basketball coach. And you're probably shouting on the sidelines during the game. I mean, you have to be more extroverted and communicative as a coach.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, the housing projects that I grew up in, I mean, it was probably 99.9% Black. And then I go to UVA, and it's the first time that, you know, I'm outnumbered as far as, you know, Black versus white"}
{"id": "1103287397", "date": "2022-06-06", "guest": "Dawn Staley", "title": "Inspired by the Sixers, basketball star Dawn Staley forged her own path on the court", "question_index": 17, "text": "That's interesting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It really wasn't easy. And I find that just through my life, being uncomfortable - being uncomfortable, I found a way to grow. And I give that to our players. Like, I am - you know, like - I'll give y"}
{"id": "1103287397", "date": "2022-06-06", "guest": "Dawn Staley", "title": "Inspired by the Sixers, basketball star Dawn Staley forged her own path on the court", "question_index": 18, "text": "My guest is women's basketball star Dawn Staley. We'll be back after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I balance their parents out."}
{"id": "1103287397", "date": "2022-06-06", "guest": "Dawn Staley", "title": "Inspired by the Sixers, basketball star Dawn Staley forged her own path on the court", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with women's basketball star Dawn Staley, head coach of the South Carolina Gamecocks. In April, her team won its second NCAA championship. She's also a former WNBA player and won three Olympic gold medals as a player and one as head coach. She grew up in the projects of North Philadelphia. She left home to attend college at the University of Virginia. She led her team to three Final Fours and one national championship game. I want to ask you about a health issue that you've spoken about and that is written about on the Cleveland Clinic website. So I hope it's OK to ask you. And if it's something you prefer not to talk about, just let me know. And there's plenty of other things we can talk about.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "JUMP\")"}
{"id": "1103287397", "date": "2022-06-06", "guest": "Dawn Staley", "title": "Inspired by the Sixers, basketball star Dawn Staley forged her own path on the court", "question_index": 20, "text": "A few years ago, you were diagnosed with pericarditis, which is an inflammation of the heart lining that is very painful and dangerous. And you, I think, took a little bit of time off and tried to take a little bit more easy. But you coached your way through it. And was this before the first Gamecocks championship? Or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I'm fine."}
{"id": "1103287397", "date": "2022-06-06", "guest": "Dawn Staley", "title": "Inspired by the Sixers, basketball star Dawn Staley forged her own path on the court", "question_index": 21, "text": "And the championship was 2017. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That was actually - I was diagnosed that particular year in the fall of 2016."}
{"id": "1103287397", "date": "2022-06-06", "guest": "Dawn Staley", "title": "Inspired by the Sixers, basketball star Dawn Staley forged her own path on the court", "question_index": 22, "text": "Now, you're somebody who learned to not show weakness because you can't show weakness in the game. When you were playing with the boys in North Philly, you could not show weakness. And you were, like, physically weak at that point. There were things you were not allowed to do. So again, it must have been a real reorientation for you to have to accept vulnerability and maybe let other people know that you had a vulnerability. Did your players know that you had this condition when you were first diagnosed and dealing with it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So it was the beginning of that season to the end of that season that I was dealing with pericarditis. You know, pericarditis is a condition that - you can't actually do anything besides breathe"}
{"id": "1103287397", "date": "2022-06-06", "guest": "Dawn Staley", "title": "Inspired by the Sixers, basketball star Dawn Staley forged her own path on the court", "question_index": 23, "text": "From the steroids?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. No. I didn't tell anybody. I only told one person on our staff that I was dealing with this because I don't like for anything to disrupt the sanctity of the team. Like, we were going to get thro"}
{"id": "1103287397", "date": "2022-06-06", "guest": "Dawn Staley", "title": "Inspired by the Sixers, basketball star Dawn Staley forged her own path on the court", "question_index": 24, "text": "Oh. Well, good for you. That's great. I think it's amazing that you won the championship in spite of that diagnosis. That says so much about you. So our time is nearly up. But I just want you to, like, play back a moment for us. You know, one of the greatest honors for an athlete is to play at the Olympics. And at the Olympics, one of the greatest honors is to be the flag-bearer, when all the athletes march to the opening ceremony. And you were the flag-bearer. Can you just tell us how that felt?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For the steroids. And I think I came out after the season when I had to deal with it because I needed to tell people. And I - when I was done coaching, like, the six months that we have in between, yo"}
{"id": "1103287397", "date": "2022-06-06", "guest": "Dawn Staley", "title": "Inspired by the Sixers, basketball star Dawn Staley forged her own path on the court", "question_index": 25, "text": "I hope your mother was alive to see it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I seriously equate it to being in a royal wedding. Like, all eyes, no matter what country you're in or from, you're watching that wedding. And for me, it was that - to be the first one to come through"}
{"id": "1103287397", "date": "2022-06-06", "guest": "Dawn Staley", "title": "Inspired by the Sixers, basketball star Dawn Staley forged her own path on the court", "question_index": 26, "text": "Good. Coach Staley, it's just been such a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much for being with us, greatly appreciate that. And, you know, I wish you many more championships.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mother was definitely alive to see it. And, you know, they had a watch party."}
{"id": "1103287397", "date": "2022-06-06", "guest": "Dawn Staley", "title": "Inspired by the Sixers, basketball star Dawn Staley forged her own path on the court", "question_index": 27, "text": "Dawn Staley is the head coach of the South Carolina Gamecocks, which won its second NCAA championship in April. Our interview was recorded last month at a Zoom event, during which she received the WHYY Lifelong Learning Award. The event was organized and produced by WHYY's Ellen Steele and Karen Smyles. After we take a short break, we'll hear from Neda Toloui-Semnani, author of \"They Said They Wanted Revolution: A Memoir Of My Parents.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much, appreciate it. Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Sam Jay, is a comic, writer and actor who has her own series on HBO called \"PAUSE With Sam Jay.\" A lot of her comedy relates to being a Black masculine-of-center lesbian who didn't come out until her early 20s. Her show \"PAUSE\" is kind of like a house party, with Sam Jay as the host and her actual friends, fellow comics and TV writers as her guests. They have lively talks about subjects like queer culture, relationships, Black conservatives, money and power and racism and tribalism in America. Last week, she talked about how her brother's life was changed by being in prison. Season 1 premiered a year ago. Season 2 is in progress. Before \"PAUSE,\" Sam Jay was a writer on \"Saturday Night Live,\" where her sketches included Black Jeopardy, including the sketches with Chadwick Boseman in his \"Black Panther\" role as T'Challa and Eddie Murphy as his character Velvet Jones. She joined \"SNL\" in 2017 and left to co-create \"PAUSE.\" She also co-created and co-stars in the series \"Bust Down,\" along with Chris Redd, who she worked with on \"SNL.\" Her latest stand-up special, \"3 In The Morning,\" is streaming on Netflix. Sam Jay, welcome to FRESH AIR. It's a pleasure to have you on our show. So how would you describe your show to someone who's never seen it?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 1, "text": "Do you find it easy to disagree with friends without your friend or you taking the disagreement personally?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, wow. That's always tough 'cause it's not - it's a weird show. But I guess I would say it's a drunken house party where you get to soberly go out and, like, prove your point afterwards, is kind of "}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 2, "text": "So I want to play a clip from the current season, Season 2 of \"PAUSE,\" and this is from the first episode. And you're talking to someone - I should add, in addition to the house party aspect, you do interviews on each episode and a sketch as well. So this is one of the interviews. And you're talking to a woman who was formerly in GLAAD, the LGBTQ advocacy group. She is a white woman who's wearing a men's suit. And in this interview, you're talking about how, as a Black lesbian, you don't really relate to what's considered, like, the gay community.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- it's just a very, like, argumentative space, comedy. So I guess for that reason, yeah, it's not really hard for me to not agree with someone's perspective but be fine with them as a person."}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 3, "text": "So that was an interview from \"PAUSE With Sam Jay.\" So, Sam, you said you don't really feel gay 'cause what gay culture is doesn't seem to have anything to do with you. What is it about gay culture that makes you feel excluded? And when you say gay culture, what is it that you mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...It has absolutely nothing to do with me. So I was like, I don't know; I just like [expletive] and hanging out with my homies 'cause I don't really know what the hell that is, right? And when that i"}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 4, "text": "When you came out, you were living in Atlanta. Describe Black gay culture in Atlanta the way you saw it, the way you experienced it, when you were coming out in your 20s.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when I say gay culture, I mean the mainstream representation of gay culture. And just like most mainstream representations of culture in America, it lacks Black identity. So when I was growing u"}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 5, "text": "Like, what came first for you, doing stand-up or coming out? And I'm interested in hearing what your very early comedy was like.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". There was going to be, like, a good time as to what I knew a good time to be. And it didn't feel as isolating as when I would go out in Boston to a gay club. And I was like, I don't fit in here."}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 6, "text": "You gave it up for nine years. Was the experience - was that because the experience the first time around was really bad? Did you feel like being a comic was going to be hopeless for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I tried to stand-up when I was about, like, 20 or so. It wasn't that great. I didn't really have any perspective or much to say. And then I didn't do it for a long time until I was, like, 29. An"}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yeah. So you dealt with a lot by the time you did stand-up again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it was, like, a combination of things. I feel like it didn't feel like I thought it was going to feel, and I was kind of, like, thrown off by that a little bit. Like, I didn't feel the connection "}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 8, "text": "And I want to get to that a little bit later. But first, I want people to get to know your comedy a little bit more. So I can't really play anything from your 2020 Comedy Central...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I had been through some stuff."}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 9, "text": "...Because there's just too many words that you can say on a podcast but not on the radio.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I had been through some stuff."}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 10, "text": "So let's try to, like - talk it through. Give our listeners a sense of it without using the words that we are not allowed to use in this medium. And so there's one thing that you do where you talk about running into a guy you had been with. You know, he'd been kind of a boyfriend before you came out. And you looked at each other, and you realized you looked just like he did. Would you describe that moment for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 11, "text": "Had you dressed very masculine before you came out? And was he surprised at how you looked?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "altered me into this? It's like, no, you had nothing to do with it. Don't try to take credit. The situation wasn't that memorable or deep. But it was funny that it came kind of full circle in that way"}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 12, "text": "Did you feel much more like yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I think, for sure, he was surprised because I didn't dress very masculine. I mean, I think there was, like, a period, but that was, like, the '90s. And you know, when you - I was younger in the '9"}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 13, "text": "You wore heels?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, a hundred percent. I always look back at that person, and I'm like, oh, man, I was trying to be something that I thought I was supposed to be. And I didn't even have any idea that's what I was do"}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 14, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is comic writer and actor Sam Jay. Her HBO series, \"PAUSE With Sam Jay,\" is in its second season. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I definitely wore heels. Well, I was a young lady, you know, trying to get boys. I was doing what girls did to get guys, you know?"}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with comic writer and actor Sam Jay. She hosts the HBO series \"PAUSE With Sam Jay.\" When we left off, we were talking about her latest stand-up special, \"3 In The Morning,\" which is streaming on Netflix. So another funny bit relates to packing for a trip with your now fiancee. And she's packing three pieces of luggage? Tell us what you're thinking 'cause I don't want to do your bit, and we can't play it for us on the show (ph).", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I definitely wore heels. Well, I was a young lady, you know, trying to get boys. I was doing what girls did to get guys, you know?"}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 16, "text": "But you also say", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she does it all the time and still does it. And it finally kind of had came to a head 'cause we were going to Europe. And I kept telling her, like, hey, we're going to Europe, and we're going to"}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 17, "text": "that just because you're a masculine-of-center lesbian doesn't mean you were brought up with a sense of chivalry", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she does it all the time and still does it. And it finally kind of had came to a head 'cause we were going to Europe. And I kept telling her, like, hey, we're going to Europe, and we're going to"}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 18, "text": ". You have no sense of chivalry.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she does it all the time and still does it. And it finally kind of had came to a head 'cause we were going to Europe. And I kept telling her, like, hey, we're going to Europe, and we're going to"}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 19, "text": "So on a more serious level, what's the gender nature of your relationship? - if you're comfortable talking about that. Did you feel like you're supposed to take on, like, the man's role and she's supposed to take on the traditional woman's role in the relationship? Or are you beyond traditional roles like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- yeah, no. I don't feel that way at all."}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 20, "text": "You joined \"Saturday Night Live\" as a writer in 2017, but they got to know you as a stand-up comic. Tell us how you were discovered and what your audition was like.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But I do do some of the traditional masculine things, and she definitely does some of the traditional feminine things. But then, like, she fixes most of the things in the house 'cause I don't know h"}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 21, "text": "When you worked on \"Saturday Night Live,\" you got to work with people who you - I assume, who you had idolized, like Eddie Murphy. I'm not sure exactly how old you are, and I haven't done the math in terms of what years he was on \"Saturday Night Live,\" but did you get to see him at all when he was on \"Saturday Night Live\" or in reruns after the fact?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I want this to be more exciting than it is, but I did this big festival called Just for Laughs in Montreal. It's, like, the biggest comedy festival in the world. And when you're a comic, it's a "}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 22, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Sam Jay. She's a comic, writer and actor and former writer for \"Saturday Night Live.\" Her HBO series, \"Pause,\" is in its second season. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I'm a big - I'm 40, and I'm a big Eddie Murphy fan. Like, when I was a kid, it was out of hand. And I don't know why my mom let me watch that much Eddie Murphy as a young person, but she did. So"}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross, back with my guest, Sam Jay. She's a comic, writer and actor who hosts the show \"PAUSE With Sam Jay\" on HBO. It's in its second season. The first airings are Friday nights. Her latest standup comedy special, \"3 In The Morning,\" is streaming on Netflix. When she auditioned to join the cast of \"Saturday Night Live,\" she got hired but as a writer, not a performer. So you were surprised that instead of a performer, they asked you to be a writer. You hadn't seen yourself as a writer. You'd only written for yourself. So that must've been...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I'm a big - I'm 40, and I'm a big Eddie Murphy fan. Like, when I was a kid, it was out of hand. And I don't know why my mom let me watch that much Eddie Murphy as a young person, but she did. So"}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 24, "text": "...A big transition. You did a few of the Black Jeopardy sketches, so I thought we'd play an excerpt of one of them. And this is one of the most famous Black Jeopardy sketches. It's the one with Chadwick Boseman as T'Challa, his role from \"Black Panther\" as the leader of the fictional African Kingdom of Wakanda. So can you set up - for any of our listeners who don't watch \"Saturday Night Live,\" can you set up what Black Jeopardy is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 25, "text": "And there's often, like, a white person on the panel. There's usually, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, Black Jeopardy is a form of \"Jeopardy!\" where the questions are centered around Black culture. And, basically, only people invited to the cookout would know the answers."}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 26, "text": "...Two Black people and one white person, who's kind of clueless about all the questions of Black culture. But in this case, it's Chadwick Boseman as T'Challa, the leader of the fictional African kingdom of Wakanda from \"Black Panther.\" And so let's hear the very beginning of the sketch. And Kenan Thompson plays the host. Also in this sketch is Leslie Jones and Chris Redd.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 27, "text": "OK. Now let's skip a little ahead in the sketch.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Rashad) You can."}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 28, "text": "OK. That's such a great sketch. When you knew that Chadwick Boseman was going to be the guest host, how did you decide to write a Black Jeopardy sketch around him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Johnny) And Well Done Steaks. If I see a speck of red, it's going back. You better cook my food with Well Done Steaks. And by Sprite - how did we become the Black soda? We don't know. Sprite. Back"}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 29, "text": "So your mother was diagnosed with pulmonary lupus. Lupus is an autoimmune disease in which your immune system attacks healthy tissue. And with pulmonary lupus, the immune system attacks part of the lungs. You were around 13 when she was diagnosed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that really - you know, Black Jeopardy is super collaborative. So that is a, you know, Bryan Tucker and Michael Che vehicle that's been there since before I got there. And when Chadwick came, Tu"}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 30, "text": "What was your understanding of your mother's medical condition? How did she explain it to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Probably about - yeah, maybe 12 - 11, 12."}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 31, "text": "What was it like entering your teens when your mother was really sick and your friends were probably going out and, you know, partying and doing things that, you know, young teenagers do? And I would imagine a lot of that time you were at home helping take care of your mother.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". My mom was a respiratory therapist at the time. And so she was also very, like, scientific. She was just always like that. Like, she explained things very scientifically. Like, when I was getting - "}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 32, "text": "Did you have a kind of dual mind about it? On the one hand, being really angry and resentful; on the other hand knowing that, but it wasn't her fault, and she really needed you. Were you holding...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, it sucked, you know? I went through a time where I stayed out the house. I didn't want to be there. I wouldn't come home. I would come home real late, and we would get in a lot of fights"}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 33, "text": "...Like, both of those thoughts in your mind at the same time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 34, "text": "She was a respiratory therapist. Did she get good health care when she was sick?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, of course, and then feeling guilty for being angry, you know, and feeling like a bad kid and, like, how do you not want to take care of your mom? You know what I mean? Like, just dealing with all "}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 35, "text": "She died when you were 16. How did your life change after that? You had already lost your father, and now you lost your mother. Who was there for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, for a while, and then it got, like, hard. She had to fight for it. But she knew what to fight for 'cause she worked in the field, you know? But at first, 'cause she worked at a private hospital "}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 36, "text": "Let's take another break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Sam Jay, and she's the host of \"PAUSE With Sam Jay\" on HBO. And the first airing is Friday nights. Season 2 is underway. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My brother tried to be, as much as he could be, but he was going through his own stuff, and he was young. Now I look at it. I'm like, he was so young, and that was a lot, you know, to even try to put "}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 37, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with comic, writer and actor Sam Jay, who hosts the HBO comedy series \"PAUSE With Sam Jay.\" So you were diagnosed with lupus, the disease that killed your mother, when you were 20. How did you find out? Were you sick?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My brother tried to be, as much as he could be, but he was going through his own stuff, and he was young. Now I look at it. I'm like, he was so young, and that was a lot, you know, to even try to put "}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 38, "text": "Well, you'd seen your mother die, so I understand why you'd feel that way. But from what I've read, there's better treatment for it now than when your mother had lupus. Is that right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "and ran some test for lupus, this, like, double-stranded DNA test. They do all this different stuff to see if the indicators are flaring. And they all were. And then that's when they told me I had lup"}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 39, "text": "So is your prognosis good now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 40, "text": "How did you decide who to tell that you had lupus and when to tell them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I'm pretty good. I mean, I have to pay attention to my body, and, like, when I'm tired, I need to rest and, you know, just be more on top of how I feel. But overall, I'm stable. I haven't had an"}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 41, "text": "Were you afraid of other people's fear getting reflected back to you and making you more afraid?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know that it was a decision I got to make, you know, 'cause I was so young when I got sick. It was kind of like everybody just ran to my side. You know what I mean? In my later life, like with"}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 42, "text": "But she stuck with you, right? She - obviously", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, and also just people not treating you normal. And now I have to be, like, the sick person, and I don't get to just be me."}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 43, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, and also just people not treating you normal. And now I have to be, like, the sick person, and I don't get to just be me."}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 44, "text": "So you do a lot of jokes about your girlfriend, now fiancee, and some of them are actually sexual.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, we've had our ups, downs and all arounds. But yeah, for sure."}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 45, "text": "And some of them are just about, you know, your relationship. So you have a series of videos in which you watch excerpts of your stand-up together and then you talk about her reaction. And she's very - she's really good about it. You know, she says, even if I don't like a joke, even if it seems, like, hurtful to me, like, I don't want to hold her back. I don't want to, like, interfere with her doing her thing and her doing her comedy. I think that's really very generous", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 46, "text": ". I'm not sure everybody would feel that way. I think it's awkward when someone who you're really close to is, like, a memoirist or a stand-up comic, and they draw on their own lives for their material because you're going to be a part of it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 47, "text": "Do you show her your comedy before you go on stage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm hmm."}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 48, "text": "Do you go through a trade-off in your mind - like a calculation before doing a joke or talking about something on your show - trying to weigh, is the material worth a fight in the relationship?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She's usually, like, with me when I come up with jokes. Or she's seen it. Like - 'cause she comes to a lot of shows - like, when I'm working on material or, like, figuring it out. Or, like, if somethi"}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 49, "text": "And does the material always win over the relationship?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For sure."}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 50, "text": "Does your girlfriend, in spite of that, ever punch up your jokes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's the artist in me, I guess. Yeah. You know."}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 51, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sometimes. Sometimes. I have to give her that credit. She'll - yeah, she'll add a - like, a line. Or I'll say something, and she'll put a tag on it 'cause she's very funny. People always ask me who ma"}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 52, "text": "Can you think of a tag that was hers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "is annoying."}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 53, "text": "I'm sure that's very reassuring", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So the..."}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 54, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So the..."}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 55, "text": "So you think they're all yours", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For my own ego, I just..."}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 56, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For my own ego, I just..."}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 57, "text": "Do you feel like you're living the life you were supposed to have or that this is a life you never dreamed of?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But yeah."}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 58, "text": "Well, Sam Jay, it's really been a pleasure talking with you. Thank you so much. And congratulations on all the success you've been having.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Both. I feel both. I feel like I knew there was something greater out there for me. I genuinely feel like that goes for everybody if that's what they want. And also, sometimes, I look out my apartment"}
{"id": "1103473488", "date": "2022-06-07", "guest": "Sam Jay", "title": "Sam Jay's 'PAUSE' series captures the vibe of a house party debate among friends", "question_index": 59, "text": "Sam Jay hosts the series \"PAUSE With Sam Jay\" Friday nights on HBO. After we take a short break, John Powers will review the new Library of America collection of Maxine Hong Kingston's major works. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. This was really nice."}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 0, "text": "Blackwell and Marley continued to work together until Marley's death. Chris Blackwell was an executive producer of the film \"The Harder They Come\" and released the soundtrack with the now-classic title song by the film's star, Jimmy Cliff. But that's just one side of the music Blackwell was behind. His label recorded U2, Grace Jones, Tom Waits, Roxy Music, Steve Winwood, Cat Stevens, The B-52s and many more. He also founded the film production company Island Alive, which made the films \"Koyaanisqatsi,\" \"Mona Lisa,\" \"Kiss Of The Spider Woman\" and the Talking Heads concert film, \"Stop Making Sense.\" Even before he got into the music business, Blackwell had a fascinating life. He grew up in Jamaica, where his mother was close friends with Ian Fleming, who wrote the James Bond books, the great songwriter Noel Coward and the movie star Errol Flynn. Blackwell knew these men and worked as a scout and production assistant on the early Bond film \"Dr. No.\" Chris Blackwell has written a new memoir called \"The Islander: My Life In Music And Beyond.\" Chris Blackwell, welcome to FRESH AIR. It's a pleasure to have you on our show, and thank you for all the wonderful music that you've released over the decades. You grew up in Jamaica. You scouted island music. How did you first hear Bob Marley and the Wailers? CHRIS BLACKWELL (FOUNDER, ISLAND RECORDS): It was in the early '60s. He had started and was produced by a well-known Jamaican producer called Lee Perry, who's really a brilliant guy. And that's the person who first started recording him. And then Bob joined up with two other guys, Peter Tosh and Bunny Wailer, and that was the Wailers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "BOB MARLEY (MUSICAL ARTIST): (Singing) Get up, stand up. Stand up for your right. Get up, stand up. Stand up for your right. Get up, stand up."}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 1, "text": "So when you first heard Bob Marley. You were unimpressed. And then about 10 years later, you heard Bob Marley and the Wailers, and you signed them. So when you heard them 10 years later, what impressed you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "BOB MARLEY (MUSICAL ARTIST): (Singing) Get up, stand up. Stand up for your right. Get up, stand up. Stand up for your right. Get up, stand up."}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 2, "text": "So you decided you wanted to make them more internationally famous and really get them to an American audience and a British audience. So you tried to bridge the gap between reggae, which most Americans and Brits weren't yet familiar with, and rock, which they were. So on \"Concrete Jungle,\" which they had already recorded, you decided for the first album that you produced with them to add guitar on that track. And it was a session guitarist from Muscle Shoals, from the famous Muscle Shoals Studio in Alabama. So tell us a little bit more about deciding to add the guitar.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I started to hear them really quite a bit because they started to build up their own following. In Jamaica, they were very popular. But was - I actually met them in London, when they were stranded in "}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 3, "text": "Well, let's hear the version that you produced with Wayne Perkins on guitar. And this is Bob Marley and the Wailers, \"Concrete Jungle.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I really wanted them to have a record which would appeal to people who liked rock music. And guitar is a key thing in rock music. And this guitarist I knew because I'd worked with him in Muscle "}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 4, "text": "That was the Wailers, \"Concrete Jungle,\" which was released on the Island record label, the record label created by my guest, Chris Blackwell. And Blackwell has a new memoir called \"The Islander.\" So, Chris Blackwell, what did Bob Marley think of the guitar opening that we just heard?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) ...Instead of concrete jungle."}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 5, "text": "You were close with Bob Marley until he died of cancer in the early '80s. And he had written a song toward the end called \"Redemption Song\" that he played for you. And you convinced him to just do it solo, just voice and his guitar. Why did you want him to record it that way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think he was a little unsure about it at first, but he ended up loving it. And when I say he ended up loving it - a few hours later. He loved it after it was played - we played it back a few times. "}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 6, "text": "Well, why don't we hear this version of \"Redemption Song,\" where it's just Bob Marley and his guitar.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because I thought it was a very moving song, a very important song, something which really would touch the soul. And I wanted it to be just very clear - just his voice and guitar. I didn't want to hav"}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 7, "text": "That was Bob Marley, vocals and guitar, singing his song, \"Redemption Song\" from his final album, \"Uprising.\" And that's the last track on that album...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Old pirates, yes, they rob I, sold I to the merchant ships minutes after they took I from the bottomless pits. But my hand was made strong by the hand of the Almighty. We forward in this gen"}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 8, "text": "...And the last track he recorded.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's the last track he recorded."}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 9, "text": "It seems like a fitting last track, doesn't it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 10, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Chris Blackwell, the founder of Island Records and the Island Alive film production company. He has a new memoir, which is called \"The Islander: My Life In Music And Beyond.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It really does. It really does."}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Chris Blackwell, the founder of Island Records, which produced Bob Marley and the Wailers, U2, Grace Jones, Traffic, Roxy Music, Eno. He was an executive producer on the film \"The Harder They Come\" and also of the soundtrack, which produced the now-classic title song, \"The Harder They Come,\" sung by the film's star, Jimmy Cliff. He released albums by Tom Waits, Tom Tom Club, Cat Stevens and more - an incredible career. So you grew up in Jamaica. Your mother's family had been the banana kings of Costa Rica when she was born in 1912. The family relocated to Jamaica after she was born and developed sugarcane fields and then bought rum manufacturing companies. Your father was born in England. His father was Irish and was a descendant of the founders of the Crosse and Blackwell Food Company. So it sounds like, yeah, you came from, you know, a very privileged background in Jamaica. Your mother was friends with Ian Fleming, who wrote the James Bond novels. And a couple of the characters in his stories were inspired by your mother - which characters?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It really does. It really does."}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 12, "text": "But it was the character Ursula Andress played.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One was called Pussy Galore, and the other one was called - gosh, I can't remember. I can't remember the other one, but that was the main one."}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 13, "text": "So you got your start in music scouting records for jukeboxes, and at one time you were responsible for 63 jukeboxes in Jamaica. And for people who are too young to remember jukeboxes, you'd put in a coin or two and choose the record you wanted to hear, and the record would play. What was the importance of jukeboxes in Jamaica at the time you were filling the jukeboxes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right, Ursula. Yes, that's right."}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 14, "text": "You also scouted records for sound systems, and these were the sound systems, you know, that basically DJs would use at parties. Why were sound systems so important in Jamaica and spreading new music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, if you were making a record, your best opportunity to get it played by people would be in jukeboxes because the radio station would play usually English recordings. Winifred Atwell, who was a hu"}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 15, "text": "Oh, and you describe it - that it was, like, very competitive because each person who had a sound system wanted to have great music that no one else had. So you'd scout records, including in the U.S., and then scrape off the label so that no one could figure out what it was so that they couldn't find it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they made these speakers, massive speakers, I mean, really would be, like, 15-foot high, you know, with huge, huge speakers in them. And you could hear them four or five miles away, literally, w"}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 16, "text": "Yeah, it sounds like it was quite a time. It sounds, like, very unique to Jamaica.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 17, "text": "You decided to start your own record company. You'd been hunting for records and for jukeboxes and for sound systems, and it was an exciting way to learn - to earn a living. And you were also very excited by the music you were finding and loved scouting music. So you decided to start your own record company, which was Island Records. Did you have a creed when you started the company of, like, how you wanted to define yourself and Island?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was really great. Thinking back on that period in time, it was great fun, and it was really exciting when those sound systems would be blasting. You couldn't believe how loud they'd be. And y"}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 18, "text": "You know, in your book, you write that one of the reasons why you left Jamaica and went to England is that when Jamaica was getting its independence, you felt like you were on the wrong side of history in Jamaica. And, you know, your parents - or your mother's family had a banana plantation in Jamaica. So I'm wondering what it was like for you to work with artists. How did you bridge that gap? Did they see you as, you know, representing the colonizers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just wanted to find and look for and meet talent, you know? And when there was somebody who I thought I could do something with, some way I could help them or guide them, then I would look to sign t"}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 19, "text": "The first big hit that you had after starting Island was a song called \"My Boy Lollipop\" by Millie Small. Now, she was - what? - 15 when you recorded her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think so, really, because, you know, I didn't sort of live that kind of way. I was very close with Jamaicans, you know? I really was. I cared a lot for them. I loved them a lot and still do. T"}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 20, "text": "So you wanted to bring her over to England to record her, but you needed her mother's permission. And she had a very unusual sound, a really kind of high-pitched voice. What attracted you to her? And how did you match up the song \"My Boy Lollipop\" to her? The song was written by Robert Spencer of the doo-wop group The Cadillacs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sixteen, maybe 17."}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 21, "text": "Well, I will tell you before we hear this record that I used to do, I think, a not half-bad Millie Small impression.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I first heard her singing a song called \"We'll Meet,\" and that was produced by, really, the top Jamaican producer in those days called Coxsone Dodd. And whenever I played it for anybody in Engla"}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 22, "text": "Yes. I would do that for my friends. And they - I think it's fair to say they thought it was, like, not bad.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Really?"}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 23, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Really?"}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 24, "text": "So let's hear \"My Boy Lollipop.\" This is Millie Small.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's good."}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 25, "text": "MILLIE SMALL (MUSICAL ARTIST): (Singing) My boy Lollipop, you make my heart go giddyup. You are as sweet as candy. You're my sugar dandy. Oh, my boy Lollipop, never ever leave me because it would grieve me. My heart, she told me so. I love you. I love you. I love you so. But I don't want you to know. I need you. I need you. I need you so. And I'll never let you go. My boy Lollipop, you make my heart go giddyup. You set the world on fire. You are my one desire. Oh, you're my Lollipop.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's good."}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 26, "text": "That was Millie Small's recording \"My Boy Lollipop,\" the first really big hit that Chris Blackwell had on his record label, Island Records. Well, let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Chris Blackwell, the founder of Island Records. He has a new memoir, which is called \"The Islander.\" We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's good."}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 27, "text": "TOM TOM CLUB (MUSICAL GROUP): What you going to do when you get out of jail? I'm going to have some fun. What do you consider fun? Fun, natural fun.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's good."}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 28, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Chris Blackwell, the founder of Island Records, which recorded such diverse performers as Bob Marley and the Wailers, Jimmy Cliff, U2, Grace Jones, Tom Waits, Roxy Music, Steve Winwood, Cat Stevens, the B-52s and many more. He grew up in Jamaica, which is where he started his career in the music business. That's how he got a head start on reggae music and helped popularize it in the U.S. and U.K. He's written a new memoir called \"The Islander.\" When we left off, we were talking about the first big hit for Island Records, the 1964 recording \"My Boy Lollipop\" by Jamaican singer Millie Small. Well, success certainly changed Millie Small's life. How did it change your life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's good."}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 29, "text": "What's the Spencer Davis Group song that you feel like you had the most influence on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it really changed my life because I went from - normally, I'd been driving around London, going to all the record stores and selling to the - in the Jamaican areas. And I loved doing it. I was r"}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 30, "text": "Well, the Spencer Davis Group's big hits were \"I'm A Man\" and \"Gimme Some Lovin'.\" But you mentioned \"Keep On Running.\" And it's interesting that you mentioned that because that song was written by a Jamaican musician. And so it, again, just leaps back to your Jamaican roots and your interest in reggae music and how that kind of continued to influence your career and your music choices.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the first one was called \"Keep On Running.\" And that was actually written by one of the Jamaican artists that I recorded right at the beginning. That was the first one, \"Keep On Running.\" And th"}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 31, "text": "It wasn't Jackie Edwards?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely did. And that was what was so great. That was such a joy for me, the fact that that was happening, you know? The fact that I was able to get that to happen was great, and whether it was Jim"}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 32, "text": "Oh, you changed his name", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Wilfred is his real name. And I thought Wilfred was a little difficult, so I changed it to Jackie - or I got him to change it to Jackie."}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 33, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Wilfred is his real name. And I thought Wilfred was a little difficult, so I changed it to Jackie - or I got him to change it to Jackie."}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 34, "text": "Oh, that's funny. OK. So let's hear the Spencer Davis Group, \"Keep On Running.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 35, "text": "THE SPENCER DAVIS GROUP (MUSICAL GROUP): (Singing) Keep on running. Keep on hiding. One fine day, I'm gonna be the one to make you understand. Oh, yeah. I'm gonna be your man. Keep on running, running from my arms. One fine day, I'm gonna be the one to make you understand. Oh, yeah. I'm gonna be your man. Hey, hey, hey. Everyone is talking about me. It makes me feel so bad. Hey, hey, hey. Everyone is laughing at me. It makes me feel so sad. So keep on running...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 36, "text": "That's the Spencer Davis Group, \"Keep On Running,\" which was released on the label Island Records, which was founded by my guest, Chris Blackwell, who has a new memoir called \"The Islander.\" You were an executive producer on the film \"The Harder They Come,\" which is set in the Jamaican music industry and starred Jimmy Cliff, the singer and songwriter who recorded the title song, \"The Harder They Come.\" And the film came out in 1972. This was, like, a really important reggae song. So I want to play it. But do you want to say a few words about \"The Harder They Come,\" the film and the song, or about Jimmy Cliff before we hear the song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 37, "text": "Well, let's hear \"The Harder They Come.\" And this is Jimmy Cliff, recorded in - was it 1972?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Jimmy Cliff is one of the best artists ever out of Jamaica. He was super talented from very young. He had a strange sort of beginning in life because he was not in touch with his mother at all o"}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 38, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "About then."}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 39, "text": "JIMMY CLIFF (MUSICAL ARTIST): (Singing) Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. All right. Well, they tell me of a pie up in the sky waiting for me when I die. But between the day you're born and when you die, they never seem to hear even your cry. So as sure as the sun will shine, I'm gonna get my share now, what's mine. And then the harder they come, the harder they fall, one and all. Ooh, the harder they come, the harder they fall, one and all.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "About then."}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 40, "text": "That was Jimmy Cliff, \"The Harder They Come,\" and the album was released on Island Records, the record label created and owned by my guest, Chris Blackwell. Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Chris Blackwell. He was the founder of Island Records and the movie production company Island Alive. Now he has a new memoir called \"The Islander.\" And the Island refers to Jamaica, where he is from. We'll be right back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "About then."}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 41, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Chris Blackwell, the founder of Island Records, which released records by people like Bob Marley and the Wailers, Jimmy Cliff, U2, Roxy Music, Tom Waits, Grace Jones, Steve Winwood, Cat Stevens, the B-52s, Tom Tom Club and many more. So we've been talking mostly about the Jamaican music that you produced. But after moving to England, you produced a lot of British performers, and one of the groups you produced was U2. And you were unimpressed with them the first time you heard them on record - on a tape, and then you heard them in person and signed them. What made you so enthusiastic after being not so much?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "About then."}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 42, "text": "You released them, but you didn't produce them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well because of their passion and because of their drive. I never produced U2, actually, never produced any records with U2. U2..."}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 43, "text": "So \"Joshua Tree\" was a huge success. U2 was a huge success. But the success kind of led to some financial problem indirectly for Island Records because you had taken some money and invested it in your film company, and then you ended up owing U2 an enormous amount of money in royalties 'cause their music was doing so well. So it's like an example in the music industry or in the entertainment industry how success can sometimes cause problems", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, released them, right. But U2 ran their own show all the time. They were lucky in that they had a man who was a really good manager. And he recognized the talent in the band, and he did a great jo"}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 44, "text": "for the label. So how did you end up working that out? 'Cause you didn't have the money to pay the royalties.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, released them, right. But U2 ran their own show all the time. They were lucky in that they had a man who was a really good manager. And he recognized the talent in the band, and he did a great jo"}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 45, "text": "So let's hear something from U2's 1987 album \"Joshua Tree,\" which was a huge hit for them. Do you have a favorite song from that album?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the best way to sort it out was to offer them an interest in the label itself. That was the best solution. I mean, there were no arguments about the whole process. What had happened is this film"}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 46, "text": "And what do you love about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, \"Still Can't Find What I'm Looking For\" (ph)."}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 47, "text": "OK, so let's hear it. And this is U2 from their album \"Joshua Tree.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I love it because it's a good song. It's beautifully sung, beautifully played, everything, you know? And it's meaningful, you know? It's a great song."}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 48, "text": "U2 (MUSICAL GROUP): (Singing) I have climbed highest mountains. I have run through the fields only to be with you, only to be with you. I have run. I have crawled. I have scaled these city walls, these city walls, only to be with you. But I still haven't found what I'm looking for. But I still haven't found what I'm looking for.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I love it because it's a good song. It's beautifully sung, beautifully played, everything, you know? And it's meaningful, you know? It's a great song."}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 49, "text": "That was U2, \"I Still Haven't Found What I'm Looking For,\" from their 1987 album, \"The Joshua Tree,\" and that was released on Island Records, the label, which was created by my guest, Chris Blackwell. And Chris Blackwell has a new memoir now called \"The Islander.\" One of the things I think you really did was help nurture talent by giving them what they needed. And you weren't very, like, hands-on as a producer. Your idea of your role was to make it happen and also to be one of the first listeners and to give some feedback. And sometimes the feedback was accepted, and sometimes, like, the band really knew or the performer really knew what they wanted. And you, you know, often just said that's - you know, go ahead, do your thing. One of the people who you signed was Tom Waits, and he'd been around before you signed him. But I think it's fair to say his music started to change after you signed him. Can you talk about what attracted you to his music and what you did that enabled him to expand musically?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I love it because it's a good song. It's beautifully sung, beautifully played, everything, you know? And it's meaningful, you know? It's a great song."}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 50, "text": "Chris Blackwell, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, firstly, he's just somewhat of a genius character. He's an unusual person. You know, he's - that's the only way I can describe it. He's really a unique character. And I met him, and I just loved"}
{"id": "1103687612", "date": "2022-06-08", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Island Records founder Chris Blackwell looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 51, "text": "Chris Blackwell is the founder of Island Records. His new memoir is called \"The Islander.\" After we take a short break, Maureen Corrigan will review a new book about the pioneering surgeon who led the team that reconstructed the faces of some of the men who suffered facial trauma during World War I. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "TOM WAITS (MUSICAL ARTIST): Inside a broken clock, splashing the wine with all the rain dogs. Taxi - we'd rather walk. Huddle a doorway with the rain dogs for I am a rain dog too. Oh, how we danced an"}
{"id": "1103913507", "date": "2022-06-09", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "The planning behind the Jan. 6 insurrection went far deeper than it initially seemed", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The House Select Committee investigating the January 6 assault on the Capitol holds its first public hearing tonight. It's at 8 o'clock Eastern and will be shown on most major network and cable news channels. My guest Luke Broadwater has been reporting on the investigations by the committee and the Justice Department into attempts to overturn the 2020 presidential election. He's a congressional correspondent for The New York Times and is one of the authors of a new article that pulls back and puts together the months-long attempts to declare Trump the winner despite the fact that all the evidence showed he lost. I spoke with Luke Broadwater yesterday morning. Luke Broadwater, welcome back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1103913507", "date": "2022-06-09", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "The planning behind the Jan. 6 insurrection went far deeper than it initially seemed", "question_index": 1, "text": "When you stand back and look at the big picture, you see that just about every facet of government was involved or pressured to be involved in the effort to overturn the election - the White House, the White House chief of staff, lawyers that were allies of President Trump, members of Congress, the Department of Homeland Security, the military, state houses, election officials as well as far-right radical groups. What am I leaving out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hi, Terry. Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "1103913507", "date": "2022-06-09", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "The planning behind the Jan. 6 insurrection went far deeper than it initially seemed", "question_index": 2, "text": "So do you feel like you see a pattern now that you didn't see before?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think you did a good job of summing everything up. The effort by Donald Trump and his allies to try to overturn the results of the 2020 election was such a sprawling and diffuse effort that it liter"}
{"id": "1103913507", "date": "2022-06-09", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "The planning behind the Jan. 6 insurrection went far deeper than it initially seemed", "question_index": 3, "text": "Who do you think is most likely to face criminal prosecution?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think we know a lot more now than we did before. And I think the craziness of the buildup to January 6, which many people probably wrote off at the time as sort of delusional or fanciful thinking am"}
{"id": "1103913507", "date": "2022-06-09", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "The planning behind the Jan. 6 insurrection went far deeper than it initially seemed", "question_index": 4, "text": "Do you think the Justice Department has gotten to the level of Trump yet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what's happening now is the Justice Department, in my view, is working backwards from January 6. They've charged more than 800 people who were at the riot, and they're going back from sort of th"}
{"id": "1103913507", "date": "2022-06-09", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "The planning behind the Jan. 6 insurrection went far deeper than it initially seemed", "question_index": 5, "text": "The storming of the Capitol is not an isolated event. It's the most dramatic, most documented and most visible and physically threatening part of the larger story, but it's just one part. So how do you see the insurrection as fitting into the larger months-long story and the attempt to overthrow the results of the election?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We have not seen an indication that it's gone beyond Trump's personal lawyers. That said, you know, these were people who reported directly to Donald Trump. Rudy Giuliani, Sidney Powell, Cleta Mitchel"}
{"id": "1103913507", "date": "2022-06-09", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "The planning behind the Jan. 6 insurrection went far deeper than it initially seemed", "question_index": 6, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Luke Broadwater, a congressional correspondent for The New York Times who's been writing about the investigations by the House Select Committee and the Justice Department into the January 6 assault on the Capitol and the monthslong attempts to overturn the results of the 2020 election. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's the culmination of everything that came before it. And basically, the Trump campaign had run out of options at that point. At first, they had tried to keep the former president in power thr"}
{"id": "1103913507", "date": "2022-06-09", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "The planning behind the Jan. 6 insurrection went far deeper than it initially seemed", "question_index": 7, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday morning with Luke Broadwater, a congressional correspondent for The New York Times who's been writing about the investigations by the House Select Committee and the Justice Department into the January 6 assault on the Capitol and the monthslong attempts to overturn the results of the 2020 election. So when previous efforts to overturn the election failed, then there was the effort to submit fake electors to the Electoral College so that the Biden electors wouldn't be getting to vote; Trump electors would be getting to vote. So tell us how that figures in.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's the culmination of everything that came before it. And basically, the Trump campaign had run out of options at that point. At first, they had tried to keep the former president in power thr"}
{"id": "1103913507", "date": "2022-06-09", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "The planning behind the Jan. 6 insurrection went far deeper than it initially seemed", "question_index": 8, "text": "And Pence decides, like, he can't go forward with that. It's not legal. And he decides that after talking with his lawyers and with former Vice President Dan Quayle. And then Trump gets really angry with Pence and even says - as they're chanting, Mike Pence, even says, maybe they should hang Mike Pence. And we don't know what the tone was when he said that, whether he was saying that in a snarky way or, like, I-really-mean-it kind of way. But it is a demonstration of how angry he was. So how does all of this lead to the actual violence, the actual storming of the Capitol, the insurrection on January 6? Like, where does that fit in to the larger story? Like, connect the dots to that explosion.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, yes, after the Trump campaign realizes they cannot win through the courts or through seizing voting machines, they have to come up with a different strategy to keep Donald Trump in power, as that'"}
{"id": "1103913507", "date": "2022-06-09", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "The planning behind the Jan. 6 insurrection went far deeper than it initially seemed", "question_index": 9, "text": "Oh, and didn't the right-wing groups, like, amplify that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. So the only reason to have a crowd assembled in Washington on January 6 is to put pressure on Congress and on Mike Pence specifically to overturn the election. There's never a rally on January 6 "}
{"id": "1103913507", "date": "2022-06-09", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "The planning behind the Jan. 6 insurrection went far deeper than it initially seemed", "question_index": 10, "text": "Through social media.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely, yeah. They spread it around immediately."}
{"id": "1103913507", "date": "2022-06-09", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "The planning behind the Jan. 6 insurrection went far deeper than it initially seemed", "question_index": 11, "text": "Trump's inaction, Trump just, like, not doing anything to say, stop the violence. He just watched it on TV and did nothing for 3 hours?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Rally planners have started to file permits. Message boards exploded with this as their call to arms. And, you know, different people have wanted to overthrow the current system of government for year"}
{"id": "1103913507", "date": "2022-06-09", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "The planning behind the Jan. 6 insurrection went far deeper than it initially seemed", "question_index": 12, "text": "So one of the things that you've learned recently has to do with Marc Short's role, and Marc Short was the chief of staff for Vice President Mike Pence. So how does Marc Short figure into the larger story now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. So on January 6, for more than three hours, it's believed Donald Trump did nothing to stop the violence. And we're going to hear testimony probably at one of the later hearings about people implo"}
{"id": "1103913507", "date": "2022-06-09", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "The planning behind the Jan. 6 insurrection went far deeper than it initially seemed", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well, let's take a break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Luke Broadwater, a congressional correspondent for The New York Times who's been writing about investigations by the House select committee and the Justice Department into the January 6 assault and the monthslong attempts to overturn the results of the 2020 election. We'll be right back after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. One of the things we've learned - and Marc Short told the committee this - was that in the - during the pressure campaign on Mike Pence, Marc Short had become so concerned with what Donald Trump "}
{"id": "1103913507", "date": "2022-06-09", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "The planning behind the Jan. 6 insurrection went far deeper than it initially seemed", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday morning with Luke Broadwater, a congressional correspondent for The New York Times who's been writing about the investigations by the House select committee and the Justice Department into the January 6 assault on the Capitol and the months-long attempts to overturn the results of the 2020 election. So Jim Jordan is one of the people trying to discredit the House committee investigating January 6. If the Republicans win in the midterms and take back the House, Jordan will end up heading the judiciary committee. What has been his role in the efforts to overturn the election and in January 6?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. One of the things we've learned - and Marc Short told the committee this - was that in the - during the pressure campaign on Mike Pence, Marc Short had become so concerned with what Donald Trump "}
{"id": "1103913507", "date": "2022-06-09", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "The planning behind the Jan. 6 insurrection went far deeper than it initially seemed", "question_index": 15, "text": "And he hasn't complied with the subpoena, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So right away, after Donald Trump loses, Jim Jordan immediately begins strategizing with top Trump officials, including the chief of staff, Mark Meadows, about what they can do to seed doubt among the"}
{"id": "1103913507", "date": "2022-06-09", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "The planning behind the Jan. 6 insurrection went far deeper than it initially seemed", "question_index": 16, "text": "What do Republicans want to investigate about Fauci?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He has not. He - the Republican leader, Kevin McCarthy, and several other Republican members of Congress have essentially refused to meet with the committee. They were asked for voluntary interviews a"}
{"id": "1103913507", "date": "2022-06-09", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "The planning behind the Jan. 6 insurrection went far deeper than it initially seemed", "question_index": 17, "text": "A significant portion of the first hearing will focus on the Proud Boys - of the first public hearing by the House select committee. The Proud Boys are a far-right group. Five members, including the former leader, Enrique Tarrio, were indicted on Monday of seditious conspiracy. What does that mean, and why is it so consequential?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So they think he misled the public on - about the lab leak, about whether the coronavirus was originated from a lab or originated elsewhere naturally. They think that he lied to the American peo"}
{"id": "1103913507", "date": "2022-06-09", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "The planning behind the Jan. 6 insurrection went far deeper than it initially seemed", "question_index": 18, "text": "Yeah. Well, the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers are becoming very closely aligned and kind of intermeshed with part of the Republican Party. So for instance, in Miami-Dade County, the Proud Boys - several Proud Boys have become part of local politics. About a half a dozen current and former members of the Proud Boys have seats on the Miami-Dade Republican Executive Committee. Has anything like that happened before, where people from such a far-right group have become embedded in the Republican establishment of local politics?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it gets beyond the idea that this was a spontaneous attack, that it was just a mob that got out of control - people got too excited that day. This gets to, actually, the planning of, essentially"}
{"id": "1103913507", "date": "2022-06-09", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "The planning behind the Jan. 6 insurrection went far deeper than it initially seemed", "question_index": 19, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Luke Broadwater, a congressional correspondent for The New York Times. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It really is a shocking development. I mean, we're talking about a chapter of the Republican Party, which was once a stronghold of the Bush family, now has five current or former Proud Boys involved. "}
{"id": "1103913507", "date": "2022-06-09", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "The planning behind the Jan. 6 insurrection went far deeper than it initially seemed", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Luke Broadwater, a congressional correspondent for The New York Times who's been writing about the investigations by the House select committee and the Justice Department into the January 6 assault on the Capitol and the monthslong attempts to overturn the results of the 2020 election. So, you know, in the sedition case against the Proud Boys, prosecutors say that a week before the attack, one of Enrique Tarrio's girlfriends - and again, he was a former leader of the Proud Boys - that the girlfriend gave him a document titled \"1776 Returns\" and that that had a detailed plan to monitor and storm government buildings near the Capitol on January 6, but it didn't mention the Capitol itself. And there were other references in texts to and from Tarrio referring to 1776. And one of them, a text back and forth between Tarrio and a Proud Boy member from North Carolina, made a reference not only to 1776, but to the Winter Palace. What is the significance of 1776 and the Winter Palace in the context of these communications?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It really is a shocking development. I mean, we're talking about a chapter of the Republican Party, which was once a stronghold of the Bush family, now has five current or former Proud Boys involved. "}
{"id": "1103913507", "date": "2022-06-09", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "The planning behind the Jan. 6 insurrection went far deeper than it initially seemed", "question_index": 21, "text": "So that can be used as evidence, that the Proud Boys wanted to overthrow the government.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, those are two, of course, you know, historic references - one to the Russian Revolution and the other to the American Revolution. And so I think prosecutors saw those as demonstrating the mindse"}
{"id": "1103913507", "date": "2022-06-09", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "The planning behind the Jan. 6 insurrection went far deeper than it initially seemed", "question_index": 22, "text": "What does sedition literally mean legally?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And I mean, it - and it's not just beyond the language. It's beyond what was actually in the plans where they were talking about taking over various government buildings around the Capitol that d"}
{"id": "1103913507", "date": "2022-06-09", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "The planning behind the Jan. 6 insurrection went far deeper than it initially seemed", "question_index": 23, "text": "Do the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers and other militia groups subscribe to the great replacement theory, that Jews and Black people and immigrants are trying to replace or will succeed in replacing white people and this will irreparably damage America? We will no longer recognize America.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sedition under a federal statute is - can be applied to people who advocate the overthrow of the federal government by force. So you have to have the intent to overthrow the government, and then you h"}
{"id": "1103913507", "date": "2022-06-09", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "The planning behind the Jan. 6 insurrection went far deeper than it initially seemed", "question_index": 24, "text": "Do you think it's fair to say that it's a mistake to think of January 6 as something that happened in the past but rather something that's continuing in terms of the ambitions of the far-right wing of the Republican Party?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I can't speak for all the members of those groups, but we do know that the great replacement theory has been pushed by leaders in the Republican Party usually under the framing that this is abou"}
{"id": "1103913507", "date": "2022-06-09", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "The planning behind the Jan. 6 insurrection went far deeper than it initially seemed", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well, let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Luke Broadwater, a congressional correspondent for The New York Times. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's still a threat, particularly as you look at what's happening at some of the state boards and in some of the elections around the country. We know that, basically, our democratic instituti"}
{"id": "1103913507", "date": "2022-06-09", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "The planning behind the Jan. 6 insurrection went far deeper than it initially seemed", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Luke Broadwater, a congressional correspondent for The New York Times who's been writing about the investigations by the House Select Committee and the Justice Department into the January 6 assault on the Capitol and the month-long attempts to overturn the results of the 2020 election. John Eastman, who is one of the lawyers allied with Trump - he was one of the architects of the fake electors scheme or schemes. And in March, a federal judge in California ruled in a civil case that Eastman had likely conspired with Trump to obstruct Congress and defraud the U.S. by helping devise and promote the alternate elector scheme and presenting plans to Mike Pence suggesting he could exercise his discretion over which slates of electors to accept or reject at the January 6 certification. So the judge wrote that this scheme was, quote, \"a coup in search of a legal theory,\" unquote. So what does that ruling mean? Where does it go from there? Is that ruling being appealed? Like, what weight does that ruling carry?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's still a threat, particularly as you look at what's happening at some of the state boards and in some of the elections around the country. We know that, basically, our democratic instituti"}
{"id": "1103913507", "date": "2022-06-09", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "The planning behind the Jan. 6 insurrection went far deeper than it initially seemed", "question_index": 27, "text": "Have you seen compelling evidence that Trump was directly involved in plans to overturn the election and committed acts that could be called sedition? Whether he's actually charged with that or not, 'cause it's tricky to indict a former president, what is the most compelling evidence that you've seen of criminal activity or sedition, which is criminal, that Trump was involved in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so functionally what that ruling did was it caused John Eastman to have to turn over documents to the committee. John Eastman had sued the committee trying to block its subpoenas. One of the thi"}
{"id": "1103913507", "date": "2022-06-09", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "The planning behind the Jan. 6 insurrection went far deeper than it initially seemed", "question_index": 28, "text": "You know, in the past, the attempts to prove criminal activity in the White House have failed. I mean, the Mueller report - everybody was saying, oh, the Mueller report, that's going to, like, blow the roof off. And it didn't. And there were, really, no consequences for Americans. And, you know, there have been other investigations, and nothing's really come of it. So what do you think the odds are that either the January 6 committee or the Justice Department investigation will actually lead to any people being held responsible for what happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the evidence that I've seen of crimes, I think, were most clearly laid out by that federal judge in California, where he said - essentially, what happened was the plan to overturn the election thro"}
{"id": "1103913507", "date": "2022-06-09", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "The planning behind the Jan. 6 insurrection went far deeper than it initially seemed", "question_index": 29, "text": "Well, Luke Broadwater, thank you so much for your reporting. And thank you so much for coming back to our show. I really appreciate it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's a good question. It does - you know, I think a lot of Democrats look at the Trump presidency, and they saw outrage after outrage. And they cannot understand why he wasn't thrown out of offi"}
{"id": "1103913507", "date": "2022-06-09", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "The planning behind the Jan. 6 insurrection went far deeper than it initially seemed", "question_index": 30, "text": "Luke Broadwater is a congressional reporter for The New York Times. Our interview was recorded yesterday morning. If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed - like this week's interviews with comic Sam Jay, host of the HBO series \"PAUSE,\" or women's basketball star coach Dawn Staley - check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. And if you'd like to read about what goes on behind the scenes at FRESH AIR, check out our newsletter. You can subscribe via our website at freshair.npr.org.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks so much, Terry. Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "1103913507", "date": "2022-06-09", "guest": "Luke Broadwater", "title": "The planning behind the Jan. 6 insurrection went far deeper than it initially seemed", "question_index": 31, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our senior producer today is Sam Briger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Seth Kelley and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks so much, Terry. Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 0, "text": "Julie Andrews, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's Julie Andrews in \"The Sound Of Music.\" Andrews is the recipient of this year's American Film Institute's Life Achievement Award. Her other films include \"Victor/Victoria,\" \"Thoroughly Modern Mi"}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 1, "text": "You know, in reading your memoir, I have to say your family life isn't at all what I imagined it would be. I mean, I thought you'd be from a kind of proper straight-laced family based on my idea of who you were from your roles. And I wonder what you think your image is and if my mistake is a common one.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. It's a pleasure to be here."}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 2, "text": "Let's start with the fact that two of your grandparents died of syphilis.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is a common one. And a lot of people have been surprised about the book. If you know me very well, you can probably spot that my background is real good down and out, vaudeville, musical background"}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 3, "text": "Now, your mother was a pianist, and she left your father to perform with a singer named Ted Andrews, who she later married. And they left home during World War II, when you were young, to perform for the troops. You stayed with your father and your aunt. What was it like to have your mother leave during wartime?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yeah. I mean, my background is really Dickensian in so many ways. And I was surprised when I found out those facts. It was somewhat of a mystery. It was that awful thing that was just out there. "}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 4, "text": "Well, you describe how after your mother brought you to London, where she was living with the man who became your stepfather, you learned how to distinguish the sound of the British fighter planes from the German fighter planes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was - I'm going to sound a real Pollyanna here. But I was raised during the war. I mean, I was practically born into the war. I think I was 2 years old or something when war broke out. But - s"}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 5, "text": "And you'd warn everybody by blowing a whistle when a German plane was coming. That was probably a pretty important role that you could play as a child.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 6, "text": "Your stepfather was - became an alcoholic and became abusive. He beat your younger brother with a cane. You had your own run in with your stepfather twice. He came into your bedroom, climbed into your bed and told you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was sent out in all weathers, regardless of, you know, rain or shine or hail or snow. I was sent out by my mother. You have to understand that women toward the end of the war could accomplish "}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 7, "text": "But he told you that you needed to be taught how to kiss?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he didn't climb into my bed, but he certainly made an advance. Thank God at that point he did not climb into my bed. And..."}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 8, "text": "When your parents - when your mother and your stepfather brought you into their vaudeville act, who were you in the act? What was your role? What kind of stuff did you sing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, he did. That was - but he was not in my bed, thank God. That would have been very difficult. But I was able to - you have to remember, he was an alcoholic. And there were days when he wasn't an a"}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 9, "text": "Your singing teacher, who was your singing teacher for decades?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I think I started doing this - my father began to give me singing lessons when I was about 7 years - my stepfather. He was a fine singer, and my mother was a wonderful pianist. She and my stepfather"}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 10, "text": "You describe how she helped you place your voice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm-hmm."}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 11, "text": "It's so interesting that on the one hand, you're studying - you're getting this great classical training with your teacher singing Handel - and at the same time, you're performing in your parents' vaudeville act.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2008 interview with singer and actress Julie Andrews. Andrews is the recipient of this year's American Film Institute's Life Achievement Award. When we lef"}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 12, "text": "Nice mix.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But you know..."}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 13, "text": "So it was almost like a stunt, a kid singing all these difficult adult arias.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My gimmick and my stock in trade in those days was to belt out somewhat, you know, cut and bastardized versions of the great arias. I sang \"Caro Nome\" from \"Rigoletto.\" I sang the - oh, I can't even r"}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 14, "text": "Hmm. Well, you know, he did some really bad things to you and your brother, but at the same time, he gave you the singing lessons and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. And, you know, when I finally went out in my own act at about age 15 and my - something rather sad happened, which was that my parents - we used to be billed as Ted and Barbara Andrews - my m"}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 15, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, he was..."}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 16, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He tried to be kind. I just wouldn't have any of it, I'm afraid, 'cause I - as I say, he was a - he was overwhelming and..."}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...A big man, a powerful man..."}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 18, "text": "You went to New York at the age of about 20?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And a little frightening in that sense."}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 19, "text": "Nineteen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I was..."}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 20, "text": "And after doing \"The Boy Friend\" on Broadway, you did \"My Fair Lady.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I came in my - when I was just about to turn 19. And the show that I was in was a show called \"The Boy Friend,\" a product that was brought over from England. And the original cast was still playing in"}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 21, "text": "So did you have to audition? Or did they just give you a part?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 22, "text": "What about \"The Boy Friend,\" you'd been in that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, gosh, no. No, I did many auditions. I sang for Alan Lerner. And then I went up to sing for Frederick Loewe with Alan. And then I read a lot of scenes and - dialogue scenes with Alan, who somehow -"}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 23, "text": "And you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'd done \"The Boy Friend.\" And I'd had a year's experience. That's true. But again, I staggered through \"The Boy Friend,\" learning on my feet as I went. And then you can imagine that George Bern"}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 24, "text": "You write in your book that you didn't know how to do a cockney accent...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm sure I wasn't the first, but I was the lucky one that landed it."}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 25, "text": "...Which is funny. Yeah, go ahead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Well, I mean..."}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 26, "text": "So who taught you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Give me a break. I was so busy learning who I was and what I was doing and never had the opportunity to do that before. And I - although I had a very good ear and had perfect pitch and many things tha"}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 27, "text": "And what's the first thing he - what's the basic principle he taught you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "An American professor of phonetics, my own American Henry Higgins - a weird reversal of the \"Pygmalion\" story."}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 28, "text": "Did your coach give you advice on how to sing \"Wouldn't It Be Loverly\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, gosh. Now, that's a hard question to answer. I don't think I can. Just literally taking me through the lines of the play and widening vowels, shortening them, dropping H's and all of those - I'm p"}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 29, "text": "So it was written like O, W?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No. Funnily enough, he didn't, as far as I can recall. Alan Lerner had written the lyrics to sound cockney - you know, oh, wouldn't it be loverly?"}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 30, "text": "Why don't we hear \"Wouldn't It Be Loverly\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Or E, O, W. I'm not quite sure which, but whatever it was, it was written so that I knew it had to be sung, of course, in cockney and \"Just You Wait\" and Regan's and all of that was written the same w"}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 31, "text": "That's Julie Andrews singing \"Wouldn't It Be Loverly\" from the original Broadway cast recording of \"My Fair Lady.\" You know, it's such a really, like, lovely tune. Isn't it pretty?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Eliza, singing) All I want is a room somewhere far away from the cold night air with one enormous chair. Oh, wouldn't it be loverly? Lots of chocolate for me to eat, lots of coal to make lots of e"}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 32, "text": "Did you - when you were given the song to sing, did you say, great song, it'll be a classic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 33, "text": "Oh, man. What a great song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I did say great song. I knew it was lovely. I knew all the music for \"My Fair Lady\" was wonderful. I knew it was special and that these gentlemen were supremely talented. I mean, can you imagine hea"}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 34, "text": "Now, \"The Sound Of Music\" provokes very strong reactions in people. People tend to just, like, love the film or not because they think it's too saccharine. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Maria, singing) The hills are alive with the sound of music, with songs they have sung for a thousand years. The hills fill my heart with the sound of music. My heart wants to sing every song it h"}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 35, "text": "So where do you fit in on the scale?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know."}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 36, "text": "Let me ask you about what might be the most famous shot from the film, which is used on advertising posters. And it's a picture of you while singing \"The Sound Of Music\" with your arms out, twirling around, alone in the mountains.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know how hard we all tried, recognizing that there was a saccharine quality to it. I mean, you have a whole, you know, whole family of children and a nanny governess and a lot of countryside and a l"}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 37, "text": "Talk about that shot.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right - in the very, very cold, rainy, wet mountains."}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 38, "text": "That's so great, because the story behind the shot is so different than the shot itself", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh. Well, that shot - the bulk of that shot was filmed from a helicopter. And I would start at one end of this long field, and the helicopter would start at the other end of the field. And we would co"}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 39, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh. Well, that shot - the bulk of that shot was filmed from a helicopter. And I would start at one end of this long field, and the helicopter would start at the other end of the field. And we would co"}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 40, "text": "I think you're suffering to do it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yeah."}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 41, "text": "You had such a lovely singing voice. And you haven't been able to sing since about 2005. You had surgery to remove a node on one of your vocal cords and haven't been able to sing since. And I understand you sued your surgeon because of that. I figure it must have been really difficult for you to not be able to sing. I mean, obviously, that affected you professionally. But just like personally and emotionally, what did it mean for you to not be able to do that anymore?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's a lot of things about \"The Sound Of Music\" that had that, though. I mean, the weather was not great in the mountains particularly. And it rained a great deal of the time. And we would sit unde"}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 42, "text": "One more thing before we have to let you go - the 1982 movie \"Victor/Victoria\" that you starred in, you played a woman pretending to be a man pretending to be a woman. You played a woman pretending to be a man performing in drag. And with the help of that movie, as even the Wikipedia points out, you've become an icon for family films and also something of an icon in the gay and lesbian community because of \"Victor/Victoria\" and maybe also because of \"Sing-A-Long Sound of Music.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It wasn't a node. I didn't have cancerous nodes, as so many people think I did. I just had a small sort of cyst in my - seemingly I had a cyst in my vocal cords, and even that has now been proved to b"}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 43, "text": "So is that a surprise to you, that you're both?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Seem to have sort of covered the whole spectrum somehow."}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 44, "text": "Well, it's been wonderful to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm delighted. I just thrilled by it. I think it's the nicest thing that could happen. And, you know, that squeaky clean image, which was brought about by such lovely films that were so successful suc"}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 45, "text": "Julie, you started psychoanalysis after you were in a committed relationship with Blake Edwards, and I can't remember if this was before or after you were actually married. But basically, the way you describe your...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One of the reasons - I really enjoy it when I'm working because I've worked my entire life - I mean, to the point where I really wasn't attending school. I had to have a tutor that came and worked wit"}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 46, "text": "Before. When you started psychoanalysis, it's like a dam opened up. I mean, you just started, like, weeping.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Before."}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 47, "text": "And I'm wondering if you felt you had to hold in a lot of feelings and just be strong and not show any vulnerability because, one, you grew up during the war years. You were living in London during World War II when you were getting bombed all the time. And you were going in and out of bomb shelters. You were blowing a whistle and literally warning people when the planes were coming when you were a child. And then you're a child, and you're touring with your parents in vaudeville, performing, and the show must go on no matter what. So did that kind of teach you to just, like, hold everything in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Before."}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 48, "text": "So Blake Edwards became your husband, but he also directed you in several films. He directed you in \"S.O.B.,\" which was a satire of Hollywood, in \"10,\" which was a romantic comedy, \"Victor/Victoria\" in which...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, absolutely, whatever it was, that I had been sort of being stiff upper lip about in my youth. And I did take care of most of my family in every sense financially and, you know, emotionally becaus"}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 49, "text": "And midlife crisis for the men. Yeah. \"Victor/Victoria,\" which you played a woman impersonating a man in drag - and, you know, also a comedy...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "About midlife crisis, really."}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 50, "text": "Yeah. And you have a great showstopping number in that. But he saw you really differently than the preconception that people had of Julie Andrews.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Impersonating a woman, right."}
{"id": "1104146013", "date": "2022-06-10", "guest": "Julie Andrews", "title": "Julie Andrews says she's not the squeaky clean lady you might expect", "question_index": 51, "text": "But, I mean, just getting back to him directing you, you were topless in one scene in one of his films. You know, there's a lot of, like, you know, gender stuff going on in \"Victor/Victoria.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess that having me as a wife and our sleeping together and being great - we were married, well, we knew each other 44 years before he sadly passed away. But he was somebody that knew me very, very"}
{"id": "1105477075", "date": "2022-06-17", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' historian examines the hope and hostility toward emancipation", "question_index": 0, "text": "Annette Gordon-Reed, welcome to FRESH AIR. I learned a lot that I'm really happy I learned from your new book. So let me ask you to give a fuller version of what Juneteenth represents.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. Sunday marks the holiday of Juneteenth, commemorating the day the abolition of slavery was announced in Texas on June 19, 1865. Texas was the la"}
{"id": "1105477075", "date": "2022-06-17", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' historian examines the hope and hostility toward emancipation", "question_index": 1, "text": "So how does June 19, 1865, fit in to the end of slavery, the abolition of slavery in the U.S.?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Juneteenth represents the end of slavery - technically the end of slavery in Texas in 1865. And it has been a day to commemorate what we know - and we know from the way they acted - the joy of p"}
{"id": "1105477075", "date": "2022-06-17", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' historian examines the hope and hostility toward emancipation", "question_index": 2, "text": "So we'll get a little deeper into the history later in the interview. But first, I want to talk with you a little bit about how the holiday has been celebrated in your family. How was it celebrated when you were growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was - emancipation was a process. There was not any one day that made everything OK, made it all over until we get to the ratification of the 13th Amendment, which was in December of 1865. Bu"}
{"id": "1105477075", "date": "2022-06-17", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' historian examines the hope and hostility toward emancipation", "question_index": 3, "text": "When you were growing up and your family celebrated Juneteenth, did they also talk with you about the meaning of Juneteenth?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was sort of a precursor to July Fourth. It was a day of barbecuing. It was a day for us kids to run around and drink a lot of what we call soda water, which means soda pop, I guess, in the No"}
{"id": "1105477075", "date": "2022-06-17", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' historian examines the hope and hostility toward emancipation", "question_index": 4, "text": "Do you see Juneteenth as being in conversation with July Fourth?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, sometimes they did, and I asked about it. My great-grandmother was alive until I was about 11 years old. And I wish I talked to her more about these things, but she talked about what it meant to "}
{"id": "1105477075", "date": "2022-06-17", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' historian examines the hope and hostility toward emancipation", "question_index": 5, "text": "Let's get into some of the history. Texas didn't surrender in the Civil War until two years after the Emancipation Proclamation. Why did Texas continue to fight even after Robert E. Lee surrendered?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. It reminds people that the sort of vaulting and high ideals of the Declaration of Independence about equality, the equality of mankind were not in operation and that it too"}
{"id": "1105477075", "date": "2022-06-17", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' historian examines the hope and hostility toward emancipation", "question_index": 6, "text": "So a U.S. Army general, Gordon Granger, was given the job of getting Texas to announce that slaved - enslaved people were now free - and not only to announce it, but to actually enact it. So Granger prepared what was called General Order No. 3, ending legalized slavery in Texas. Would you describe what's in General Order No. 3?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess you could put it to stubbornness. I talk a little bit in the book about Texas' unique situation. It had been a republic, its own republic, for almost a decade and thought of itself as special."}
{"id": "1105477075", "date": "2022-06-17", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' historian examines the hope and hostility toward emancipation", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yeah, I want to quote from it 'cause it declares \"absolute equality of personal rights and rights of property between former masters and slaves.\" I'm - that upset a lot of white people. There was a wave of white violence afterwards. What was that wave of violence like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's not a very long document. It just announces the end of slavery. And he does something that is quite extraordinary. He also suggests that now, after the end of slavery, the people who had be"}
{"id": "1105477075", "date": "2022-06-17", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' historian examines the hope and hostility toward emancipation", "question_index": 8, "text": "You know, you point out that in pop culture, the images of Texas are all about, like, cowboys and ranchers and farmers and oilmen. But Texas was - at least part of Texas was all about plantations and enslaved people. And I didn't realize how much of Texas' deep history was about making sure that slavery could be legal. So let's go back to a very early chapter in Texas when Stephen Austin, who was born in Virginia and raised in Missouri, came to Texas when it was a province of Mexico. What did he want to do in Texas? Why did he come to Texas?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there are stories about people who celebrated, were celebrating what they called the Jubilee or Emancipation Day before it was - it became Juneteenth. And they were whipped. They were whipped fo"}
{"id": "1105477075", "date": "2022-06-17", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' historian examines the hope and hostility toward emancipation", "question_index": 9, "text": "So at the time, Stephen Austin - and Austin, Texas, is named after him. So at the time he comes to Texas, Texas is a province of Mexico?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he - it started out with his father, Moses, who passed away, and he sort of took up the mantle of his father. They wanted to bring settlers, Anglo settlers, into Texas to extend the cotton empir"}
{"id": "1105477075", "date": "2022-06-17", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' historian examines the hope and hostility toward emancipation", "question_index": 10, "text": "So what did that mean? What was the relationship of Texas and Mexico?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is a province of Mexico."}
{"id": "1105477075", "date": "2022-06-17", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' historian examines the hope and hostility toward emancipation", "question_index": 11, "text": "So when Mexico starts to turn against slavery, that's when the leaders of Texas decided, we should become independent to preserve slavery.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's like a state of - like we have states today. It was a state in Mexico. There was a Mexican government control. Mexican law was paramount. And they wanted Anglo settlers to sort of balance o"}
{"id": "1105477075", "date": "2022-06-17", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' historian examines the hope and hostility toward emancipation", "question_index": 12, "text": "Your family has deep roots in Texas. Your father's side of the family came to Texas sometime in the 1860s. Do you know whether that was before or after the Civil War?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview with Pulitzer Prize-winning historian and Harvard professor Annette Gordon-Reed. Her new book is called \"On Juneteenth.\" It's part memoir, part h"}
{"id": "1105477075", "date": "2022-06-17", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' historian examines the hope and hostility toward emancipation", "question_index": 13, "text": "Did they come as enslaved people? Or did they come...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't."}
{"id": "1105477075", "date": "2022-06-17", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' historian examines the hope and hostility toward emancipation", "question_index": 14, "text": "Did they pass any stories - pass on any stories about the wave of violence after Texas was forced to free enslaved people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think they came - they came as enslaved people. They came - my father's family came as enslaved people. On my mother's side, I can go back to the 1820s. And those were certainly enslaved people who "}
{"id": "1105477075", "date": "2022-06-17", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' historian examines the hope and hostility toward emancipation", "question_index": 15, "text": "What's one of the stories they told you about people they knew who were attacked by whites in the 20th century? And what impact did it have on you to hear these horrifying stories?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, they did not. My - the stories that I heard were more about the 20th century examples of violence, things that had happened specifically to people they knew or in their specific area. There was no"}
{"id": "1105477075", "date": "2022-06-17", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' historian examines the hope and hostility toward emancipation", "question_index": 16, "text": "But you grew up in Conroe, so I guess some of your family came back?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they told a story about - well, a couple of stories, one about a man who was burned at the stake on the courthouse square in Conroe, Texas, in the 1920s, the story of Bob White - this was in the"}
{"id": "1105477075", "date": "2022-06-17", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' historian examines the hope and hostility toward emancipation", "question_index": 17, "text": "So you grew up in the 1960s. So you were going to school after the 1954 Supreme Court decision Brown v. the Board of Ed, which said that, you know, schools had to be equal, and therefore segregation of schools had to end. But Texas found a way to get around Brown v. the Board of Ed with something called the freedom of choice plan. What was that plan? - 'cause that plan was in effect when you started to go to school.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. Let's get back to Terry's interview recorded last year with Pulitzer Prize-winning historian and Harvard professor Annette Gordon-Reed. Her book"}
{"id": "1105477075", "date": "2022-06-17", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' historian examines the hope and hostility toward emancipation", "question_index": 18, "text": "How did the end of the Freedom of Choice Plan and the beginning of the integration of schools in your community affect your actual schooling and who you went to school with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the freedom of choice plan, which other states adopted as well, was a way around Brown because what they said was white parents are now free to choose the schools that they want to send their kids "}
{"id": "1105477075", "date": "2022-06-17", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' historian examines the hope and hostility toward emancipation", "question_index": 19, "text": "What was it like to be singled out as exceptional, which separated you from other Black students?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, as I got to be older, I ran into something called tracking. I was a good student. And I was tracked into what we called accelerated classes. And I was pretty much separated from Black students f"}
{"id": "1105477075", "date": "2022-06-17", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' historian examines the hope and hostility toward emancipation", "question_index": 20, "text": "I want to end the interview by going back to Juneteenth, which is the subject of your new book. How important to you is it to have a national holiday that recognizes the emancipation of slaves?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was tough, you know? It was tough. The one saving grace is that I lived in a Black community and I had Black friends in that community, even though we didn't - when we went to school, we weren't in"}
{"id": "1105477075", "date": "2022-06-17", "guest": "Annette Gordon-Reed", "title": "'On Juneteenth' historian examines the hope and hostility toward emancipation", "question_index": 21, "text": "Annette Gordon-Reed, it's been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you for so much enlightening information about American history.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's very important. My father used to joke - I don't know how much he was joking. He would say, the slaves haven't been freed. What he was talking about is that there's still a long struggle "}
{"id": "1105478857", "date": "2022-06-17", "guest": "Philip Baker Hall", "title": "Remembering character actor Philip Baker Hall", "question_index": 0, "text": "Philip Baker Hall, welcome to FRESH AIR. Is this the first time your leading lady has been a man in drag?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Sol Sussman) Don't get your hopes up. It's not a heart attack. It's this damn constipation."}
{"id": "1105478857", "date": "2022-06-17", "guest": "Philip Baker Hall", "title": "Remembering character actor Philip Baker Hall", "question_index": 1, "text": "Did that affect your performance at all?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We don't know everything, you know, in some of these movies."}
{"id": "1105478857", "date": "2022-06-17", "guest": "Philip Baker Hall", "title": "Remembering character actor Philip Baker Hall", "question_index": 2, "text": "Now, the first time I really noticed you - and I think I'm speaking for a lot of people here - was in the movie \"Hard Eight,\" which was written and directed by Paul Thomas Anderson. And you were also in his films \"Boogie Nights\" and \"Magnolia.\" In \"Hard Eight,\" you play a gambler who knows all the angles at the casinos, and you become a father figure to a real loser, someone who's a loser in life and at the casinos, played by John C. Reilly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it didn't, not in the least. CHARLES, of course, I mean, as he's been doing for years in his various female personae, Charles does it with such amazing skill and such charm that, you know, for all"}
{"id": "1105478857", "date": "2022-06-17", "guest": "Philip Baker Hall", "title": "Remembering character actor Philip Baker Hall", "question_index": 3, "text": "Philip Baker Hall, what's the story behind how you met Paul Thomas Anderson and made this movie with him? It was his first film.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Sydney) I'm not looking for a hooker, John. I'm offering you a ride, offering to teach you something."}
{"id": "1105478857", "date": "2022-06-17", "guest": "Philip Baker Hall", "title": "Remembering character actor Philip Baker Hall", "question_index": 4, "text": "What was it like to kind of really break in to film when you were already probably in your 60s, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I was doing a movie for public television in LA, and Paul was a volunteer production assistant. And he - you know, he was basically getting the coffee and helping out with the little chores on t"}
{"id": "1105478857", "date": "2022-06-17", "guest": "Philip Baker Hall", "title": "Remembering character actor Philip Baker Hall", "question_index": 5, "text": "I want to ask you about your voice. Your voice is often - I mean, you're often in these kind of tough or authoritative type of roles whether it's somebody, you know, with a lot of power in a cabinet position or whether it's, you know, somebody who's connected to gangsters. I know your voice is capable of being really tough. I can't quite place it geographically. It always sounds very urban to me, but I can't really say I hear or I can locate a particular accent. Where are you from?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", which is great, OK? And then also, just at the ego level, it's very nice to get this - the recognition. And the recognition - I mean, I'm not - I never yearned to be recognized at the supermarket or"}
{"id": "1105478857", "date": "2022-06-17", "guest": "Philip Baker Hall", "title": "Remembering character actor Philip Baker Hall", "question_index": 6, "text": "What...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm from Ohio. I was born in Toledo, Ohio, and I grew up there. My father was from Montgomery, Ala. So I certainly don't speak - unless a character requires it - with a - any kind of a Southern dialec"}
{"id": "1105478857", "date": "2022-06-17", "guest": "Philip Baker Hall", "title": "Remembering character actor Philip Baker Hall", "question_index": 7, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In fact, somebody asked me once - they wanted me to do something. I don't know if it was for a commercial or what. They wanted me to do a Midwestern accent. And I thought I was already doing it, so..."}
{"id": "1105478857", "date": "2022-06-17", "guest": "Philip Baker Hall", "title": "Remembering character actor Philip Baker Hall", "question_index": 8, "text": "What's another, like, defining moment of your early life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There you go."}
{"id": "1105478857", "date": "2022-06-17", "guest": "Philip Baker Hall", "title": "Remembering character actor Philip Baker Hall", "question_index": 9, "text": "I've really enjoyed talking with you. Thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. I want to thank Dave Davies for hosting last week while I took the week off. Yesterday was Juneteenth, the holiday commemorating the end of slavery in the U.S. It's been celebrated by African Americans in various forms since 1865 and last year was recognized as an official federal holiday. It fell on a Sunday this year, so many people have the day off today to celebrate. We're going to observe Juneteenth by featuring our interview with songwriter, singer and musician Rhiannon Giddens, who has set several slave narratives to music. She first featured some of them on her album \"Freedom Highway,\" which was released in 2017, when we recorded this interview. She has a beautiful voice, and she brought her banjo with her to sing some of her songs. Giddens has a personal and musical background that crosses boundaries. She grew up in North Carolina, the daughter of an African American mother and a white father. She studied opera at Oberlin. But she found her musical identity after graduation when she started playing string band music from the 1920s and '30s with songs based on African American musical traditions. She co-founded the band The Carolina Chocolate Drops. And in the same year of our interview, she was awarded a MacArthur Fellowship, commonly known as the Genius Award. In 2020, she was named artistic director of Silkroad, the ensemble and cultural organization founded by Yo-Yo Ma. She wrote the libretto and music for the original opera \"Omar,\" based on the autobiography of an enslaved man. It premiered last month at the Spoleto Festival. Giddens had a featured role in the TV series \"Nashville.\" Her latest album, \"They're Calling Me Home\" with Francesco Turrisi, won a Grammy earlier this year for Best Folk Album. Let's start with one of her songs inspired by slave narratives from her album \"Freedom Highway.\" This is \"Come Love Come.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 1, "text": "Rhiannon Giddens, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Tell us about the slave narrative that the song we just heard is based on.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Come, love, come. The road lies low. The way is long and hard. I know. Come, love, come. The road lies free. I'll wait for you in Tennessee. When I was 4, my loving mam was cornered by the b"}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 2, "text": "What got you into reading slave narratives and thinking you'd base some songs on them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that one in particular is actually kind of based on an amalgam of stories that I was reading just - you know, just sort of the usual - I hesitate to say that word but the usual experiences of a "}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 3, "text": "So you describe your banjo as a minstrel-era banjo, a replica of a minstrel-era banjo. So what makes this banjo different than other banjos?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, getting into the banjo and discovering that it was an African American instrument, you know, just - it totally turned on its head my idea of American music and then, through that, American h"}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 4, "text": "It is deep. It's deeper than I'm used to hearing. And the way that you play it - parts of the album are really haunted. I mean, you're talking about slavery. You're talking about death. You're writing songs about, you know, mothers who have to give up their children. So - and your singing has a haunted quality but so does the banjo. And you have your banjo. Maybe you could illustrate this for us to talk about the style that you're playing to get that deep sound and to not have it be this frailing or lively kind of banjo - to have that sad, haunted quality to it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, the original banjos were all handmade instruments. It would be made with gourds and whatever, you know, materials would have been around. And, you know, the first hundred years of its "}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Has been left out, you know, for various reasons - as we can get into or not later. But this is the sound that I wanted to be associated with these songs because this is what you would have heard. "}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 6, "text": "I'm going to ask you to perform for us another song that you do on your album, \"Freedom Highway.\" And this is called \"The Purchaser's Option.\" And this is based on an ad that you saw, a historical ad for a slave that was going to be sold. So this was the owner taking out an ad.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like, this instrument right here, you know, born in Africa but then made in America and then altered by white America - I mean, that's the story about so much of our music, you know? And it starts her"}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 7, "text": "So at the purchaser's option in this context meant that if you buy this woman who's a slave, you have the option of buying or not buying her baby along with her.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That was a - you know, a lot of people, you know, we like to think that slavery only existed in the South. But, you know, up until a certain point, it was all over, you know, the United States a"}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 8, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. That's right."}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 9, "text": "Can I ask you to sing it for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's just - it gives me - it gives me the creeps just even talking about it now, even though I've, you know, been singing the song now ever since. but..."}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 10, "text": "Thank you for doing that. That song is really chilling. If you're just joining us, my guest is Rhiannon Giddens. She's a singer as well as a banjo player and violinist who has - was a founding member of The Carolina Chocolate Drops and has since done a lot of solo work. We'll be back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. (Playing guitar, singing) I've got a babe, but shall I keep him? 'Twill come the day when I'll be weeping. But how can I love him any less, this little babe upon my breast? You can take my body."}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with singer, banjo player and violinist Rhiannon Giddens. Before starting a solo career, she was a founding member of The Carolina Chocolate Drops, which plays string band music in the African American tradition. Our interview was recorded in 2017 after the release of her album \"Freedom Highway,\" which featured several original songs adapted from slave narratives. One song was inspired by an 18th-century newspaper notice selling an enslaved person. I'm wondering if there are any slave stories that have been passed on through the generations in your family, stories that you heard told or that you asked about and found out the answers to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. (Playing guitar, singing) I've got a babe, but shall I keep him? 'Twill come the day when I'll be weeping. But how can I love him any less, this little babe upon my breast? You can take my body."}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 12, "text": "Rhiannon, you know, another thing about this album is it takes it up to the present. It takes it up to a song that's really, as far as - at least it sounds this way to me - is a song about, you know, all the young African American men who have been shot without cause by police and, you know, young men for whom, like, just one misinterpreted gesture can land you in jail or in the grave. The song is called \"Better Get It Right The First Time.\" Can you tell us about the song and writing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, there actually is. And I hope I get this right because, you know, as a kid, you hear things and you don't even know you're changing them, you know, in your brain. But the one that's in my family"}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 13, "text": "So let's hear it. This is Rhiannon Giddens and her nephew, Justin Harrington, from Rhiannon Giddens' new album, \"Freedom Highway.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, so it kind of has its roots in a couple of different things. And one is that, you know, I have a 19-year-old nephew who has been really struggling with this. So we've had these conversations abo"}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 14, "text": "That's \"Better Get It Right The First Time\" from Rhiannon Giddens' new album, \"Freedom Highway.\" And that was her nephew, Justin Harrington, doing the rap. So was this song, or what your nephew raps on the song, related to any specific incident?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) We done seen it on the daily, reposting obituary pages, losing beloveds. They want to change the subject. It's nothing new for the blue. Is it the who or the hue? It's kids watching they fat"}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 15, "text": "We're listening to my interview with Rhiannon Giddens from 2017 about her album \"Freedom Highway.\" Her latest album with Francesco Turrisi won a Grammy for best folk album. We'll hear more of the interview and more of Giddens' music after a short break. I am Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The story is really just one of many. And my nephew had written this last year, and we were recently in Dallas with this show. And it was just the most unbelievable thing. The exact thing that he raps"}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 16, "text": "RHIANNON", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The story is really just one of many. And my nephew had written this last year, and we were recently in Dallas with this show. And it was just the most unbelievable thing. The exact thing that he raps"}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with singer and musician Rhiannon Giddens in 2017 after the release of her album \"Freedom Highway.\" The album includes several of her songs adapted from slave narratives. Her album with singer Francesco Turrisi won a Grammy earlier this year for best folk album. It's titled \"They're Calling Me Home.\" Giddens also co-founded the Carolina Chocolate Drops, a group dedicated to string-band music inspired by African American string bands of the 1920s and '30s. She studied opera at Oberlin and wrote the libretto and music for the original opera \"Omar,\" based on the autobiography of an enslaved man. It premiered last month at the Spoleto Festival. As you can tell, her musical abilities and interests are wide-ranging and deep. When you made this album, you were actually preparing for your first Broadway role, the starring role in the musical \"Shuffle Along,\" which was about the making of the 1921 musical \"Shuffle Along,\" which was the first Broadway musical written and performed exclusively by African Americans. But the show closed because the star of the - you were going to replace Audra McDonald in it 'cause she was pregnant...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) There is just one thing I can't understand."}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 18, "text": "...And couldn't continue past a certain point. And this was 2016 or 2015? I lose track of time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes."}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 19, "text": "2016, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was 2016."}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 20, "text": "So you were going to replace her. But then the show closed when she left. And so you never got a chance to do it. But not knowing that you wouldn't get a chance to do it, you asked the producers - while you were planning to take over from Audra McDonald, you asked them if you could take a couple of weeks and record this album.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 21, "text": "Well, my question is - so this was a huge opportunity for you, right? And you were learning all these...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 22, "text": "...New things 'cause you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 23, "text": "...Hadn't done Broadway before. So why did you feel so compelled that you had to leave then and make this album, like, right away?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 24, "text": "So I was hoping to see you in \"Shuffle Along.\" But since the show closed and you never got to do the part, I thought I would selfishly ask if you would be willing to sing an excerpt of one of the songs that you would have sung had the show remained open.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, my team could testify to this. I felt crazy. I felt like a crazy person. I was like - I felt this unbelievable urge, you know? I just felt like it had to be made right then, you know? I was ki"}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well, thank you. That was really so lovely. And I think - am I hearing, like, your opera training in there, too, when you sing that? That song has an enormous range.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would love to. My favorite, of course, is \"Memories Of You,\" which is her last statement in the show. And it was written by Blake and Andy Razaf, who was an incredible lyricist. And let's see. (Sing"}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 26, "text": "Because there wasn't amplification yet.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And the thing is, like, they wrote - you know, they wrote for unamplified voices back then, you know, so..."}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 27, "text": "So I want to talk with you about your life. And I want to quote something that you've said, which is, I am a daughter of the South, of the white working class, of the Black working class, of the Democrats and the Republicans, of the gay and the straight. Is that all literally true?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, there was no - there's no microphones. There's no head mikes, you know? And so, like, this time period is very much - you know, a lot of the songs in \"Shuffle\" are very high, you know, because t"}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 28, "text": "So - yeah. Let's go through it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep. My..."}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 29, "text": "But - you mean, the Black side out of your family.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. I mean, I ended up moving to Greensboro. But I spent the first part of my life with my grandparents out in the country. So my mom's folks are from one side of Greensboro and - you know, outside "}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 30, "text": "Right. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 31, "text": "They couldn't get married in Greensboro?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, the colored girls. Yes - me and my sister. And I think - I find the story really beautiful because the fact that my parents came together in Greensboro - they went to, you know, college and found"}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 32, "text": "Three years after the Supreme Court...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "to get married. I mean, this is three years after the Loving decision - they got married, yeah."}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 33, "text": "...That made it - that outlawed all of the anti-miscegenation laws, the laws...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "After - yeah."}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 34, "text": "...That made it impossible, like, illegal for a Black and a white person to marry.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 35, "text": "And they couldn't marry. That's amazing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean, and that just..."}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 36, "text": "Yeah. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I mean, that just..."}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 37, "text": "So, you know, in terms of that identity statement that I read, the part about - that you're the daughter of the gay and the straight.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It blows my mind, you know?"}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 38, "text": "How old were you when she came out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I got a lot of moms. And they recently got married in North Carolina now that it's legal - hopefully will continue to be. And I grew up, you know - 'cause my - obviously, my mom and my dad got divor"}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 39, "text": "So you were still a child.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". You know what I mean?"}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 40, "text": "Now, your father sang - right? - or sings?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I was still a child. But I was just like, it didn't mean anything to me other than just that was who she was, you know?"}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 41, "text": "For racial reasons it caused him trouble with his teacher?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, he was a voice major. And, you know, he had this beautiful - I mean, still has a beautiful voice. But had an opera-worthy baritone and was going into - you know, ended up going into music "}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 42, "text": "Well, I want to talk with you more, but first, we have to take a short break, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Rhiannon Giddens. She is a founder of the Carolina Chocolate Drops that played string band music in the African American tradition. She's since gone solo. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yeah. Yeah, it caused him troubles with his teacher, with jobs. I mean, yeah, it was tough. It was tough for both of them. I mean, the - just because it was legal didn't mean it was accepted cult"}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 43, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 2017 interview with singer, banjo player and violinist Rhiannon Giddens. She was a founding member of the Carolina Chocolate Drops before starting a solo career. So you studied opera, in spite of the fact that your music is, you know, out of various folk traditions, and also country music and some gospel you've sung. But you went to Oberlin and studied opera there. Given that's not the direction you ended up taking, why did you decide to study opera?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yeah. Yeah, it caused him troubles with his teacher, with jobs. I mean, yeah, it was tough. It was tough for both of them. I mean, the - just because it was legal didn't mean it was accepted cult"}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 44, "text": "Is there an excerpt, a very brief excerpt, of an opera, of an aria that you can sing for us that you learned in your Oberlin days?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "on stage. And they sing all the time. That sounds really cool. I want to do opera. I mean, that's literally - that was my choice, you know? I just had this fear of speaking on stage. So I went with op"}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 45, "text": "And what is it about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would love to do - it's not an aria, but this art song that I just think is beautiful. It's called \"Morgen!\" by Strauss. And to me, it's, like, one of the most perfect pieces of music."}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 46, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 47, "text": "Your voice is so beautiful. Technically, what's the difference between your opera voice and your other voice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's so - and when you hear the piano, it's just so - it's probably not a good example, but it's just - it's in my brain right now. So..."}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 48, "text": "Right. And that second song was \"Underneath The Harlem Moon,\" which...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's - it really - I don't - it's interesting. It's like I'm placing it in different part of my head, you know? So when I'm singing, you know - (vocalizing) - it's all up here, you know? But then if I"}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 49, "text": "...Ethel Waters made famous.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 50, "text": "And that was more kind of like folk and Appalachian.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yes, and made changes to. Yeah. And we do her version, you know, the words that she added to that song, but yeah. And, you know - and then when you're doing, you know, (singing) when I first com"}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 51, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Kind of Appalachian."}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 52, "text": "Yeah. And thank you for illustrating that. One of the slave narrative songs on your new album \"Freedom Highway\" is called \"Julie.\" It's a dialogue between a slave and the woman who owns her. And the woman who owns her is afraid that Julie, the slave, is going to run off with the Union soldiers when they come. And they're close. And they're coming closer. And she's - so the slave owner's trying to convince Julie to, like, stay. So I'm going to ask you to sing the ending of the song. But can you tell us more of the story leading up to the end so that we get what's happening?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So there's - they all have a different place they live. It's kind of interesting."}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 53, "text": "I should mention that that song that Rhiannon Giddens just did an excerpt of, \"Julie,\" a song she wrote, is on her new album, \"Freedom Highway.\" Rhiannon Giddens, it's just been wonderful to talk with you. Thank you so much for singing for us. And I really love the new album, so thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Julie, oh, Julie, can't you lie if they find the trunk of gold by my side? Julie, oh, Julie, you tell them men that that trunk of gold is yours, my friend. Mistress, oh, Mistress, I won't li"}
{"id": "1105830131", "date": "2022-06-20", "guest": "Rhiannon Giddens", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens sings slave narratives", "question_index": 54, "text": "My interview with Rhiannon Giddens was recorded in 2017 after the release of her album \"Freedom Highway.\" Her latest album with singer Francesco Turrisi won a Grammy for Best Folk Album. It's called \"They're Calling Me Home.\" She's written a children's book titled \"Build A House,\" which will be published in the fall. After we take a short break, Ken Tucker will review a variety of new country music songs. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "1106922050", "date": "2022-06-23", "guest": "Mary Ziegler", "title": "Why overturning Roe isn't the final goal of the anti-abortion movement", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The Supreme Court is wrapping up its term, and it's expected that the court will overturn Roe v. Wade. A draft of Justice Alito's majority opinion that was leaked early last month would end the federally guaranteed constitutional right to abortion and allow states to write their own abortion laws. This is happening as we approach the 50th anniversary of Roe. We're going to talk about how we got here and what might happen next. My guest, Mary Ziegler, has written several books and many articles and op-eds about the debates and battles over abortion. She says overturning Roe isn't the final goal of the anti-abortion movement. Her new book is called \"Dollars For Life: The Anti-Abortion Movement And The Fall Of The Republican Establishment.\" It's about how the anti-abortion movement became a major force within the Republican Party and, in the process, transformed the party, opening the door to insurgents and populists like Donald Trump. Ziegler is a professor of law at the University of California, Davis. We recorded our interview yesterday. Mary Ziegler, welcome to FRESH AIR. Justice Alito's draft said that Roe was egregiously wrong from the start. On what grounds?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1106922050", "date": "2022-06-23", "guest": "Mary Ziegler", "title": "Why overturning Roe isn't the final goal of the anti-abortion movement", "question_index": 1, "text": "So what you're saying is when the 14th Amendment guaranteeing equal protection was passed, abortion was illegal in many states. But that doesn't have to do with privacy, and Roe v. Wade was based on privacy. So what's the connection between the 14th Amendment and privacy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It answers this question that there can be no right to abortion by looking at what Justice Alito describes as history and tradition, which he says are the exclusive source of our constitutional rights"}
{"id": "1106922050", "date": "2022-06-23", "guest": "Mary Ziegler", "title": "Why overturning Roe isn't the final goal of the anti-abortion movement", "question_index": 2, "text": "If Roe was built on the 14th Amendment and the right to privacy, what are some of the other cases that were built on the precedent of Roe that could be challenged now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the 14th Amendment and privacy, the court had described that connection or illuminated that connection in a series of decisions, really, dating back to the 1920s but particularly to the 1960s. And "}
{"id": "1106922050", "date": "2022-06-23", "guest": "Mary Ziegler", "title": "Why overturning Roe isn't the final goal of the anti-abortion movement", "question_index": 3, "text": "How do you think overturning Roe affects the future of birth control?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it's better to think of this as a sort of interconnected web of decisions about privacy in the sense of self-determination and autonomy, and often it's an idea of autonomy that's closely"}
{"id": "1106922050", "date": "2022-06-23", "guest": "Mary Ziegler", "title": "Why overturning Roe isn't the final goal of the anti-abortion movement", "question_index": 4, "text": "Is overturning Roe like the final destination for the anti-abortion movement? Or are there plans to go beyond that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Many may remember during fights about the Affordable Care Act's contraceptive mandate that religious employers objected to subsidizing what they described as abortion-inducing drugs, and they applied "}
{"id": "1106922050", "date": "2022-06-23", "guest": "Mary Ziegler", "title": "Why overturning Roe isn't the final goal of the anti-abortion movement", "question_index": 5, "text": "To bestow on the fetus the right of personhood - what would that require? Is that something states can do, or does that require a constitutional amendment? Because there had been a movement for a constitutional amendment, but as you write in your books, the anti-abortion movement kind of realized that was out of reach, at least then in the past.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, there are definitely plans to go beyond it. So I think in the book and in all of my research, it's quite clear that the anti-abortion movement is a personhood movement. From its inception, the ant"}
{"id": "1106922050", "date": "2022-06-23", "guest": "Mary Ziegler", "title": "Why overturning Roe isn't the final goal of the anti-abortion movement", "question_index": 6, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then, we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Mary Ziegler, who's written several books about the abortion wars. Her new one is called \"Dollars For Life: The Anti-Abortion Movement And The Fall Of The Republican Establishment.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. I mean, so there are state efforts to declare personhood within states. So that's quite common in red states. But again, from the standpoint of the anti-abortion movement, that doesn't really m"}
{"id": "1106922050", "date": "2022-06-23", "guest": "Mary Ziegler", "title": "Why overturning Roe isn't the final goal of the anti-abortion movement", "question_index": 7, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Mary Ziegler. She's written extensively about the abortion wars. Her new book is called \"Dollars For Life: The Anti-Abortion Movement And The Fall Of The Republican Establishment.\" It's about how the anti-abortion movement became so powerful in the Republican Party and, in the process, weakened the Republican establishment and opened the doors to insurgents and populists like Donald Trump. Our interview was recorded yesterday. If we look at the present and project into the future - in the present, we already have laws in some red states that are very strict about abortion. Projecting into the future, what kind of conflicts do you foresee between red states and blue states about how abortion should be regulated? For example, if a red state passes a law that women aren't allowed to travel to another state for abortions, but blue states welcome women who want to go there for an abortion, like, who wins? How is that decided?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. I mean, so there are state efforts to declare personhood within states. So that's quite common in red states. But again, from the standpoint of the anti-abortion movement, that doesn't really m"}
{"id": "1106922050", "date": "2022-06-23", "guest": "Mary Ziegler", "title": "Why overturning Roe isn't the final goal of the anti-abortion movement", "question_index": 8, "text": "You envision a future in which there's three different kinds of states regarding abortion law. What are you envisioning?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the problem is that there's not a very clear answer to that question because there are just really no good parallels legally to that setup, right? If you try to rack your brain for what are scen"}
{"id": "1106922050", "date": "2022-06-23", "guest": "Mary Ziegler", "title": "Why overturning Roe isn't the final goal of the anti-abortion movement", "question_index": 9, "text": "You mentioned the possibility of digital surveillance - of who and what kind of surveillance?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think, obviously, there are going to be the kind of classic, you know, states that disallow abortion and sometimes go to extremes in enforcing those bans, right? So we may see extensive digita"}
{"id": "1106922050", "date": "2022-06-23", "guest": "Mary Ziegler", "title": "Why overturning Roe isn't the final goal of the anti-abortion movement", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, talk about the right to privacy. Doesn't that violate the right to privacy if the government is surveilling you and, you know, gathering your private information, especially if it's medically related?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, if you stop and think about this - if a state says you can't have an abortion, how will that be enforced? Because we now live in a world where you can get abortion medication on the internet fro"}
{"id": "1106922050", "date": "2022-06-23", "guest": "Mary Ziegler", "title": "Why overturning Roe isn't the final goal of the anti-abortion movement", "question_index": 11, "text": "Are there new consequences that you think abortion providers will be facing in the future in red states?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Potentially, right? But I think this speaks to a broader problem with digital privacy, which is that there - at times, we've seen courts and other government actors essentially say, you should know th"}
{"id": "1106922050", "date": "2022-06-23", "guest": "Mary Ziegler", "title": "Why overturning Roe isn't the final goal of the anti-abortion movement", "question_index": 12, "text": "Let's talk about punishing women who have an abortion. As you've pointed out in your writing, you know, in the past, it's mostly been abortion providers who have been targeted with, you know, any kind of criminal punishment. But now it looks like we're opening up the possibility in some states of criminalizing women who have abortions. Where do we stand on that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I imagine that abortion providers in red states will either have to close shop or face significant prison terms, right? We've seen states treating abortion as a serious crime, subject to punishm"}
{"id": "1106922050", "date": "2022-06-23", "guest": "Mary Ziegler", "title": "Why overturning Roe isn't the final goal of the anti-abortion movement", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Mary Ziegler. She's written extensively about the abortion wars, including in several books. Her latest book is called \"Dollars For Life: The Anti-Abortion Movement And The Fall Of The Republican Establishment.\" We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So at the moment, pretty much all red states have said they're not going to punish women, and they're sticking to it. Most of the big anti-abortion groups are saying the same thing. But we're still se"}
{"id": "1106922050", "date": "2022-06-23", "guest": "Mary Ziegler", "title": "Why overturning Roe isn't the final goal of the anti-abortion movement", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I am Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Mary Ziegler. She's written extensively about the abortion wars. Her new book is called \"Dollars For Life: The Anti-Abortion Movement And The Fall Of The Republican Establishment.\" It's about how the anti-abortion movement became so powerful in the Republican Party and, in the process, weakened the Republican establishment and opened the doors to insurgents and populists like Donald Trump. She's a professor of law at the University of California, Davis. So I've read news stories and heard in FRESH AIR interviews about women who have been punished because they had a miscarriage, but they were accused of aborting their fetus. So what do you know about how that has been done in the past and what that might mean for the future?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So at the moment, pretty much all red states have said they're not going to punish women, and they're sticking to it. Most of the big anti-abortion groups are saying the same thing. But we're still se"}
{"id": "1106922050", "date": "2022-06-23", "guest": "Mary Ziegler", "title": "Why overturning Roe isn't the final goal of the anti-abortion movement", "question_index": 15, "text": "In the late '80s and early '90s, there were major blockades of clinics that provided abortions. And, you know, it was - it made it very difficult for women to enter. Why was that a tactic that was used? And why was that tactic eventually downplayed? It assumed less importance, less emphasis.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So even with Roe on the books, we know that people were getting punished for conduct during pregnancy. They punished people under laws regulating what states call feticide, or the killing of fetuses. "}
{"id": "1106922050", "date": "2022-06-23", "guest": "Mary Ziegler", "title": "Why overturning Roe isn't the final goal of the anti-abortion movement", "question_index": 16, "text": "Take us back to a time when the Republican establishment didn't care much about abortion.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there were people in the movement who were not happy to just rely on law and politics. They wanted to prevent abortions right now even if that meant breaking the law. And so the clinic blockade "}
{"id": "1106922050", "date": "2022-06-23", "guest": "Mary Ziegler", "title": "Why overturning Roe isn't the final goal of the anti-abortion movement", "question_index": 17, "text": "The anti-abortion movement tried several strategies to get a better foothold within the party. What are some of the strategies that didn't quite work?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the most striking time really was during the late '80s and early '90s. You had Lee Atwater, who was the famous sort of hatchet man for George H.W. Bush, declaring that the Republican Party was a"}
{"id": "1106922050", "date": "2022-06-23", "guest": "Mary Ziegler", "title": "Why overturning Roe isn't the final goal of the anti-abortion movement", "question_index": 18, "text": "Well, the Citizens United Supreme Court decision opened up the doors to all kinds of spending on campaigns that wasn't allowed before. Did the anti-abortion movement help create a path to Citizens United?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that - the movement had held out the idea that being pro-life, as the movement put it, was good politics because many voters were pro-life. So in the '80s, there had been just the format"}
{"id": "1106922050", "date": "2022-06-23", "guest": "Mary Ziegler", "title": "Why overturning Roe isn't the final goal of the anti-abortion movement", "question_index": 19, "text": "All right. There's still plenty more to talk about, but let's take a short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Mary Ziegler, who's written several books about the abortion wars. Her new one is called \"Dollars For Life: The Anti-abortion Movement And The Fall Of The Republican Establishment.\" We'll be back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. The anti-abortion movement was involved in key cases leading up to Citizens United and in Citizens United itself. And what's really interesting was that it wasn't so much that anti-abortion lawy"}
{"id": "1106922050", "date": "2022-06-23", "guest": "Mary Ziegler", "title": "Why overturning Roe isn't the final goal of the anti-abortion movement", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Mary Ziegler. She's written extensively about the abortion wars. Her new book is called \"Dollars for Life: The Anti-Abortion Movement And The Fall Of The Republican Establishment.\" It's about how the anti-abortion movement became so powerful in the Republican Party, and in the process, weakened the GOP establishment and opened the doors to insurgents and populists like Donald Trump. She's a professor of law at the University of California, Davis. We recorded our interview yesterday. One major goal of the anti-abortion movement was to get Supreme Court justices on the bench who would overturn Roe. And as we've seen over the years, abortion became a litmus test for judicial nominees for Republicans. It was justices who would be opposed to abortion. And for Democrats, Democrats started appointing justices who would uphold Roe. What did the anti-abortion movement do to make abortion a litmus test?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. The anti-abortion movement was involved in key cases leading up to Citizens United and in Citizens United itself. And what's really interesting was that it wasn't so much that anti-abortion lawy"}
{"id": "1106922050", "date": "2022-06-23", "guest": "Mary Ziegler", "title": "Why overturning Roe isn't the final goal of the anti-abortion movement", "question_index": 21, "text": "A premise of your new book is that the anti-abortion movement led to the downfall of the Republican establishment as it was known in the past. What do you think the key thing was that the anti-abortion movement did to transform the Republican Party?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think the anti-abortion movement's contribution was different than the ones we often hear about. So many of us have heard, for example, of the Federalist Society, which is the sort of flagship"}
{"id": "1106922050", "date": "2022-06-23", "guest": "Mary Ziegler", "title": "Why overturning Roe isn't the final goal of the anti-abortion movement", "question_index": 22, "text": "When Donald Trump was running for president in 2016, he put a really big emphasis on appointing Supreme Court justices who would try to overturn Roe. And that, of course, was very appealing to people in the anti-abortion movement. Why do you think he put such an emphasis on that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, part of the story I tell does focus on money. And there were obviously other things that weakened the traditional Republican Party leadership. There was the rise of conservative media. So histor"}
{"id": "1106922050", "date": "2022-06-23", "guest": "Mary Ziegler", "title": "Why overturning Roe isn't the final goal of the anti-abortion movement", "question_index": 23, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Mary Ziegler, who's written several books about the abortion wars, including her new one, \"Dollars For Life: The Anti-Abortion Movement And The Fall Of The Republican Establishment.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Write in anyone but Donald Trump. And Trump had, of course, you know, a personal life that might not have appealed to people in the anti-abortion movement, had a record of being pro-choice. And so I"}
{"id": "1106922050", "date": "2022-06-23", "guest": "Mary Ziegler", "title": "Why overturning Roe isn't the final goal of the anti-abortion movement", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Mary Ziegler. She's written extensively about the abortion wars. Her new book is called \"Dollars For Life: The Anti-Abortion Movement And The Fall Of The Republican Establishment.\" It's about how the anti-abortion movement became so powerful in the Republican Party and, in the process, weakened the Republican establishment and opened the doors to insurgents and populists, like Donald Trump. She's a professor of law at the University of California, Davis. Our interview was recorded yesterday. The Supreme Court has been releasing its opinions online this year. And to what extent do you think that's because of COVID precautions? And to what extent is that protecting the safety of the justices, especially after the death threat against Justice Kavanaugh?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Write in anyone but Donald Trump. And Trump had, of course, you know, a personal life that might not have appealed to people in the anti-abortion movement, had a record of being pro-choice. And so I"}
{"id": "1106922050", "date": "2022-06-23", "guest": "Mary Ziegler", "title": "Why overturning Roe isn't the final goal of the anti-abortion movement", "question_index": 25, "text": "You were in law school in the late aughts. When you decided to make abortion an area of specialization for your legal scholarship, did you envision the possibility that Roe could be overturned?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's a number of things. I mean, I think that the court is moving more quickly and much more radically on a variety of issues that people actually pay attention to than it has in decades. And "}
{"id": "1106922050", "date": "2022-06-23", "guest": "Mary Ziegler", "title": "Why overturning Roe isn't the final goal of the anti-abortion movement", "question_index": 26, "text": "Well, you walked me right into the question. What do you think progressives did wrong?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In law school, it would have come as sort of unimaginable to me that Roe would be overturned. I think the more I studied this, the more I came to appreciate the sophistication of the anti-abortion mov"}
{"id": "1106922050", "date": "2022-06-23", "guest": "Mary Ziegler", "title": "Why overturning Roe isn't the final goal of the anti-abortion movement", "question_index": 27, "text": "Mary Ziegler, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Well, I think there are a couple of things progressives did wrong. I think there was a kind of professionalization of the pro-choice movement - right? a kind of effort to make the pro-choice mo"}
{"id": "1106922050", "date": "2022-06-23", "guest": "Mary Ziegler", "title": "Why overturning Roe isn't the final goal of the anti-abortion movement", "question_index": 28, "text": "Mary Ziegler's new book is called \"Dollars For Life: The Anti-Abortion Movement And The Fall Of The Republican Establishment.\" She's a professor of law at the University of California, Davis. If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, like this week's interviews with Angela Garbes about why mothering shouldn't be as exhausting and bankrupting as it is, or with science writer Ed Yong about the sights, sounds, smells and magnetic fields that animals, birds and fish perceive that we can't, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. And for stories about how our show is put together and interesting recommendations from our staff, you can subscribe to our newsletter. You'll find a link on our website at freshair.npr.org.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "1106922050", "date": "2022-06-23", "guest": "Mary Ziegler", "title": "Why overturning Roe isn't the final goal of the anti-abortion movement", "question_index": 29, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering today from Tina Kalakay (ph). Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Joe Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Therese Madden directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "1108913337", "date": "2022-06-30", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Did the Trump camp help far-right militia groups plan the Jan. 6 attack?", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Extremism and political violence is the beat my guest, Alan Feuer, covers for The New York Times. He's been reporting on the Justice Department's investigation into efforts to overturn the 2020 election, as well as doing some reporting on the House Select Committee's January 6 investigation. Over the past few years, Feuer has done extensive reporting on the Proud Boys, the far-right group that took the lead in confronting police, crossing police lines and breaching the Capitol on January 6. He contributed to a remarkable New York Times video showing how they led the charge. The video is based on court documents, text messages, a video recording of a Proud Boys meeting to prepare for the 6 and videos recorded on the 6 from many sources, in which The Times was able to locate exactly where and when Proud Boys were during the attack. Five members of the group have been charged with seditious conspiracy. On Tuesday, after the House Select Committee heard testimony from Cassidy Hutchinson, who was an aide to Trump's final chief of staff, Mark Meadows, Feuer wrote about how this could lead the former president closer to federal criminal charges. We recorded our interview yesterday. Alan Feuer, welcome to FRESH AIR. Busy time for you, huh?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1108913337", "date": "2022-06-30", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Did the Trump camp help far-right militia groups plan the Jan. 6 attack?", "question_index": 1, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1108913337", "date": "2022-06-30", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Did the Trump camp help far-right militia groups plan the Jan. 6 attack?", "question_index": 2, "text": "Oh, my pleasure. One of the things you flagged when you were writing live about the Hutchinson testimony for The New York Times was that Trump asked Meadows, Trump's final chief of staff, Mark Meadows, to contact Roger Stone and Mike Flynn on the night before January 6. And Cassidy Hutchinson doesn't know what was said but knows the conversation took place. Why do you think that is so important?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Indeed, it is. Thanks for having me, Terry."}
{"id": "1108913337", "date": "2022-06-30", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Did the Trump camp help far-right militia groups plan the Jan. 6 attack?", "question_index": 3, "text": "They're a militia group. They're a far-right militia group.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So the phone calls that Hutchinson describes between Meadows, Stone and Flynn are important, if unresolved, for this reason. While we don't know what Meadows may have said to Stone and Flynn, wh"}
{"id": "1108913337", "date": "2022-06-30", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Did the Trump camp help far-right militia groups plan the Jan. 6 attack?", "question_index": 4, "text": "And Mike Flynn is Trump's former national security adviser.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They are a far-right militia group and one of..."}
{"id": "1108913337", "date": "2022-06-30", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Did the Trump camp help far-right militia groups plan the Jan. 6 attack?", "question_index": 5, "text": "Wow. OK. So if Mark Meadows at the time was Trump's chief of staff and Trump asked Meadows to contact Roger Stone and Mike Flynn the night before the insurrection, that kind of connects Trump to the planning for it? Is that what's being suggested here?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mike Flynn is definitely - and both - let's not forget, as the committee pointed out yesterday, both Flynn and Stone received presidential pardons from Donald Trump in the weeks leading up to January "}
{"id": "1108913337", "date": "2022-06-30", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Did the Trump camp help far-right militia groups plan the Jan. 6 attack?", "question_index": 6, "text": "Hi. How you doing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Look; we don't know what conversation Meadows had with Stone and Flynn. It could - look; we have to leave open the possibility that, you know, it was, you know..."}
{"id": "1108913337", "date": "2022-06-30", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Did the Trump camp help far-right militia groups plan the Jan. 6 attack?", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Look; we don't know what conversation Meadows had with Stone and Flynn. It could - look; we have to leave open the possibility that, you know, it was, you know..."}
{"id": "1108913337", "date": "2022-06-30", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Did the Trump camp help far-right militia groups plan the Jan. 6 attack?", "question_index": 8, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hi. How you doing?"}
{"id": "1108913337", "date": "2022-06-30", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Did the Trump camp help far-right militia groups plan the Jan. 6 attack?", "question_index": 9, "text": "And let's just bring up here that Mike Flynn, in a closed-door hearing with the January 6 House committee, was questioned by Lynne Cheney (ph), and she asked him if he believed in the peaceful transfer of power, and he took the Fifth.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, you guys getting good service over there at the Willard Hotel, right? We have to leave that open. Nonetheless, it is a potential conduit in which Trump could be connected directly to these m"}
{"id": "1108913337", "date": "2022-06-30", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Did the Trump camp help far-right militia groups plan the Jan. 6 attack?", "question_index": 10, "text": "Oh, really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He also took the Fifth when he was asked if he felt that the violence that erupted at the Capitol was problematic legally and morally. And we should also point out that Roger Stone, in a similar fashi"}
{"id": "1108913337", "date": "2022-06-30", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Did the Trump camp help far-right militia groups plan the Jan. 6 attack?", "question_index": 11, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He also took the Fifth when he was asked if he felt that the violence that erupted at the Capitol was problematic legally and morally. And we should also point out that Roger Stone, in a similar fashi"}
{"id": "1108913337", "date": "2022-06-30", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Did the Trump camp help far-right militia groups plan the Jan. 6 attack?", "question_index": 12, "text": "So what does Stone have to say about this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. They have long-term ties going back to when Stone himself was being prosecuted for his involvement in the Trump-Russia investigation. And he ultimately ended up threatening the"}
{"id": "1108913337", "date": "2022-06-30", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Did the Trump camp help far-right militia groups plan the Jan. 6 attack?", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here because there's really a lot more to talk about. So let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Alan Feuer, who has been reporting on extremism and political violence for The New York Times and reporting on the Justice Department investigation into attempts to overturn the 2020 election. He's also done extensive reporting on the Proud Boys. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Stone adamantly denies that he had any role whatsoever in the violence that occurred at the Capitol on January 6th. And that has been his position more or less since Day 1. So, yeah, that's wher"}
{"id": "1108913337", "date": "2022-06-30", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Did the Trump camp help far-right militia groups plan the Jan. 6 attack?", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Alan Feuer, who's been reporting on extremism and political violence for The New York Times. He's been covering the Justice Department investigation into attempts to overturn the 2020 election as well as doing some reporting on the January 6th committee, the House committee investigating the attack on the Capitol. And he's been writing extensively over the years about the Proud Boys. The Justice Department has been very careful and not talking about what it's doing exactly. So a lot of people are wondering what, if anything, will these Justice Department investigations lead to? So where are we, to your knowledge, in the Justice Department's investigations? Like, what are the paths that you know of that it's pursuing now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Stone adamantly denies that he had any role whatsoever in the violence that occurred at the Capitol on January 6th. And that has been his position more or less since Day 1. So, yeah, that's wher"}
{"id": "1108913337", "date": "2022-06-30", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Did the Trump camp help far-right militia groups plan the Jan. 6 attack?", "question_index": 15, "text": "Is that the seditious conspiracy angle?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the most obvious and sort of least newsworthy path is, of course, the fact that 840-plus criminal cases have been filed against people who were physically involved in the storming of the Capitol, r"}
{"id": "1108913337", "date": "2022-06-30", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Did the Trump camp help far-right militia groups plan the Jan. 6 attack?", "question_index": 16, "text": "Let's talk about your writing about the Proud Boys. And the Proud Boys are the far-right, pro-Trump group known for starting fights and inciting violence. Five of them are facing charges of seditious conspiracy. And so why have you been keeping your eye on them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the seditious conspiracy charges are already lodged, right? They're lodged against the Proud Boys. They're lodged against the Oath Keepers. The question is, what is the connection between the mi"}
{"id": "1108913337", "date": "2022-06-30", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Did the Trump camp help far-right militia groups plan the Jan. 6 attack?", "question_index": 17, "text": "So the Proud Boys played a key role in the attack on the Capitol. They were there in five different locations, igniting the group that stormed the police lines and tried and succeeded into breaking into the Capitol. And so before we get to the details of how they managed to do that, let's talk about a video call that was leaked to The New York Times. And I don't know if it was leaked to you personally. This is a call of a meeting held by Enrique Tarrio, the leader of the Proud Boys, a week before January 6. And he and some top lieutenants held a video conference with a handpicked crew and started a new special chapter called the ministry of self-defense. What was it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In short, because I've been following them since they, essentially, were created in 2016. I've been writing about them, you know, on and off for, you know, what is now, you know, more than half a deca"}
{"id": "1108913337", "date": "2022-06-30", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Did the Trump camp help far-right militia groups plan the Jan. 6 attack?", "question_index": 18, "text": "The opposite.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The ministry of self-defense was, as you described, was a handpicked crew of what I'll call elite members of the Proud Boys who were chosen by Tarrio and his top leaders for what one of them described"}
{"id": "1108913337", "date": "2022-06-30", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Did the Trump camp help far-right militia groups plan the Jan. 6 attack?", "question_index": 19, "text": "Well, one difference is that Tarrio couldn't be in Washington on January 6 because shortly before that, he was arrested - right? - for carrying two high-capacity rifle magazines.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The opposite happened. So what's the difference here, right? What's going on? And that's just sort of an open question."}
{"id": "1108913337", "date": "2022-06-30", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Did the Trump camp help far-right militia groups plan the Jan. 6 attack?", "question_index": 20, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Alan Feuer. He's a reporter for The New York Times who's been covering the Justice Department investigation into the attempts to overturn the results of the 2020 election. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was arrested directly in connection with the banner burning at the church that I described, right? And then, when he was being prosecuted - when he was arrested, he was coming off the plane. It's J"}
{"id": "1108913337", "date": "2022-06-30", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Did the Trump camp help far-right militia groups plan the Jan. 6 attack?", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I am Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Alan Feuer, who covers extremism and political violence for The New York Times. He's been reporting on the Justice Department's investigation into January 6th and attempts to overturn the election. He's also written extensively about the Proud Boys, the far-right extremist group that took the lead January 6th in confronting police, crossing police lines, removing barriers and breaching the Capitol. Five of the Proud Boys are charged with seditious conspiracy including the group's leader, Enrique Tarrio. But he was arrested when he arrived in Washington on January 4th. So on the 6th, he wasn't able to be with the Proud Boys at the Capitol. All right. So the person who takes over for him on January 6th as the leader of the group is Joe Biggs. Just tell us a little bit about Joe Biggs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "MALLET QUARTET III FAST\")"}
{"id": "1108913337", "date": "2022-06-30", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Did the Trump camp help far-right militia groups plan the Jan. 6 attack?", "question_index": 22, "text": "So in a video before January 6th, Biggs says, this time we're not going to be wearing the colors you're used to seeing us in - 'cause they basically wore - was it orange? And what was the other color?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it's sort of Biggs and another guy. But sure, Joe Biggs ends up kind of having what I'll call tactical control on the ground. Biggs is a former soldier, former Army sergeant, who saw combat oversea"}
{"id": "1108913337", "date": "2022-06-30", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Did the Trump camp help far-right militia groups plan the Jan. 6 attack?", "question_index": 23, "text": "Black and yellow, yeah. They basically used to wear black and yellow, you know, identifying themselves as Proud Boys. But this time, he says, they're not going to do that. He says, this time, myself and other leadership decided we're going to go incognito. We're going to be blending in like an old lady with some pins in her hand making a sweater. You won't know who's standing beside you. It could be Antifa. It could be me. What's the significance of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's black and yellow."}
{"id": "1108913337", "date": "2022-06-30", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Did the Trump camp help far-right militia groups plan the Jan. 6 attack?", "question_index": 24, "text": "And this was work that was done for a really remarkable New York Times video that you were part of analyzing and putting together, that connects text messages, court documents and the videos that you were just describing so that you can see exactly where the Proud Boys were during all the breaches of the Capitol. And you could see that they took a leading role. Joe Biggs is suspected of starting the first breach of police lines at the Capitol. And this was about 15 minutes before Congress was set to start certifying the results of the election. How did he set it off, according to your knowledge?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The significance on the ground - right? In other words, the result of it is that it was impossible to know in the melee that took place at the Capitol who was a Proud Boy and who was not. And so when "}
{"id": "1108913337", "date": "2022-06-30", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Did the Trump camp help far-right militia groups plan the Jan. 6 attack?", "question_index": 25, "text": "So once the barricades are breached, what do the Proud Boys do next? They move to another location - right? - and start instigating there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As you said, there is a crowd gathered outside the most exterior barricades of the Capitol grounds just before Congress is about to go into joint session. And at some point, a guy comes up to Biggs wh"}
{"id": "1108913337", "date": "2022-06-30", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Did the Trump camp help far-right militia groups plan the Jan. 6 attack?", "question_index": 26, "text": "By constantly moving, inciting the crowd to violence and then, like, moving to another location, do you think the Proud Boys were trying to become more invisible? I mean, remember, like, they're not wearing their colors, so they're not easily identified. Once the police lines are breached, they often, like, move away and go to another location. So it's kind of like wiping away their fingerprints.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So what ultimately happens is a series of complicated, I will call tactical, maneuvers by the Proud Boys that day. And each one, it - you can kind of see a pattern of behavior in the visual evid"}
{"id": "1108913337", "date": "2022-06-30", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Did the Trump camp help far-right militia groups plan the Jan. 6 attack?", "question_index": 27, "text": "Let's take a short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Alan Feuer, who's been reporting on the Justice Department investigation into attempts to overturn the 2020 election, as well as reporting extensively on the Proud Boys. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, look, if you talk to the Proud Boys' lawyers, they will adamantly deny that there was a preplanned conspiracy to storm the building, to do any of this stuff, that - you know, like, there's no - th"}
{"id": "1108913337", "date": "2022-06-30", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Did the Trump camp help far-right militia groups plan the Jan. 6 attack?", "question_index": 28, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Alan Feuer, who's been reporting on the Justice Department investigation into attempts to overturn the 2020 election. And he's been reporting over the years extensively on the Proud Boys, including their role in the insurrection on January 6. So now that five members of the Proud Boys, including the leader, Enrique Tarrio, are charged with seditious conspiracy, what are the Proud Boys up to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, look, if you talk to the Proud Boys' lawyers, they will adamantly deny that there was a preplanned conspiracy to storm the building, to do any of this stuff, that - you know, like, there's no - th"}
{"id": "1108913337", "date": "2022-06-30", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Did the Trump camp help far-right militia groups plan the Jan. 6 attack?", "question_index": 29, "text": "So I want to talk with you a little bit about the origins of the Proud Boys because it dates back to Gavin McInnes, who was one of the founders of Vice. And his intention was a kind of, like, rude, like, male-only, you know, macho, we love to fight and drink and make crude jokes men's club. Tell us about what his original intent was.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So in the immediate aftermath of January 6, as the Justice Department was rounding up members across the country, there are now - almost 50 members of the Proud Boys have been charged that we know of "}
{"id": "1108913337", "date": "2022-06-30", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Did the Trump camp help far-right militia groups plan the Jan. 6 attack?", "question_index": 30, "text": "Well, I guess you can't answer that, but yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's an interesting question about what his intent was, of course. He set this up..."}
{"id": "1108913337", "date": "2022-06-30", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Did the Trump camp help far-right militia groups plan the Jan. 6 attack?", "question_index": 31, "text": "Yeah, and people of color and women", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no, no. But I just want to - but it's to the point here, right? It's to the point because he sets it up as, you know, a so-called drinking club. We're like the Elks or the Shriners. We're just g"}
{"id": "1108913337", "date": "2022-06-30", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Did the Trump camp help far-right militia groups plan the Jan. 6 attack?", "question_index": 32, "text": ", resentment toward them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no, no. But I just want to - but it's to the point here, right? It's to the point because he sets it up as, you know, a so-called drinking club. We're like the Elks or the Shriners. We're just g"}
{"id": "1108913337", "date": "2022-06-30", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Did the Trump camp help far-right militia groups plan the Jan. 6 attack?", "question_index": 33, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Alan Feuer, a reporter for The New York Times who's been covering the Justice Department's investigation into attempts to overturn the election. And he's also reported extensively on the Proud Boys, including their role in the attack on the Capitol. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, what's interesting is that - I would say this, the overt misogyny of the Proud Boys was always there from the beginning. The Proud Boys have always allowed in members of any race. I rememb"}
{"id": "1108913337", "date": "2022-06-30", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Did the Trump camp help far-right militia groups plan the Jan. 6 attack?", "question_index": 34, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Alan Feuer, who's been reporting on extremism and political violence for The New York Times. He's been covering the Justice Department investigation into attempts to overturn the 2020 election, as well as doing some reporting on the January 6 House committee investigating the attack on the Capitol. And he's written extensively about the Proud Boys and their role in the January 6 attack. So the Proud Boys were never meant to be, like, an intellectual club. When McInnes started it, he said, we're bringing back hedonism, stupidity, ugliness. We're getting rid of taboos. We're getting armed. And we're having fun. And I hope you'll join us. So that says something right there - especially, we're getting armed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, what's interesting is that - I would say this, the overt misogyny of the Proud Boys was always there from the beginning. The Proud Boys have always allowed in members of any race. I rememb"}
{"id": "1108913337", "date": "2022-06-30", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Did the Trump camp help far-right militia groups plan the Jan. 6 attack?", "question_index": 35, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Proud Boys have always celebrated violence. You know, I remember the first time I met Gavin McInnes. He complained to me that the true violent people were the leftist activists - right? - antifa. "}
{"id": "1108913337", "date": "2022-06-30", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Did the Trump camp help far-right militia groups plan the Jan. 6 attack?", "question_index": 36, "text": "Yeah, yeah. And this is crazy. You write, as a character-building exercise, the Proud Boys forbid masturbation and pornography and that the group's initiation rituals - and this is early on, you know, during the McInnes era, the group's initiation rituals included reciting the names of five breakfast cereals while being slugged by other Proud Boys members", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So they've always celebrated violence."}
{"id": "1108913337", "date": "2022-06-30", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Did the Trump camp help far-right militia groups plan the Jan. 6 attack?", "question_index": 37, "text": ". Like, that sounds crazy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So they've always celebrated violence."}
{"id": "1108913337", "date": "2022-06-30", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Did the Trump camp help far-right militia groups plan the Jan. 6 attack?", "question_index": 38, "text": "Right, yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, see; but I think - I mean, first of all, yes, it is crazy. But the way you just laughed at it, because it is laughable, is kind of the McInnes mindset that if we can make part of this jokey and "}
{"id": "1108913337", "date": "2022-06-30", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Did the Trump camp help far-right militia groups plan the Jan. 6 attack?", "question_index": 39, "text": "And I fell right into that, didn't I? I just laughed. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And like a frat, it deflates the seriousness of it."}
{"id": "1108913337", "date": "2022-06-30", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Did the Trump camp help far-right militia groups plan the Jan. 6 attack?", "question_index": 40, "text": "That's a whole thing on the far right now is, like, putting everything into italics so it's kind of ambiguous. It's like, into scare quotes, saying, oh, that was meant to be a joke. I was being ironic. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, whatever. But you're right - because it is silly, and it is goofy. But I have the sense that that was purposeful."}
{"id": "1108913337", "date": "2022-06-30", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Did the Trump camp help far-right militia groups plan the Jan. 6 attack?", "question_index": 41, "text": "So, you know, weapons were not only conspicuous on January 6; weapons seem to be entering politics in a new way, especially through several ads by Republicans in the primaries that show the Republicans, you know, the candidate, with a weapon. And the most extreme of these is a recent ad by Eric Greitens. And you actually wrote about this recently. Tell us about the ad for people who haven't seen it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's a little safety valve that McInnes has opened and closed very shrewdly over the years."}
{"id": "1108913337", "date": "2022-06-30", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Did the Trump camp help far-right militia groups plan the Jan. 6 attack?", "question_index": 42, "text": "Alan Feuer, it's really been great to talk with you. Thank you so much for explaining so many things.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. So Greitens is running for the Senate in Missouri, and the ad essentially shows him standing with a shotgun outside a home, flanked by what looks like a military assault team dressed in full bod"}
{"id": "1108913337", "date": "2022-06-30", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Did the Trump camp help far-right militia groups plan the Jan. 6 attack?", "question_index": 43, "text": "Alan Feuer is a New York Times reporter covering extremism and political violence. He's been reporting on the Justice Department's investigation into attempts to overturn the 2020 election. If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed - like this week's interviews with Mat Johnson, whose new novel is a futuristic, dystopian parable about partisan politics; or Joel Kim Booster, the writer and star of the gay rom-com \"Fire Island\"; or John Vercher, whose new novel is about a biracial mixed martial arts fighter battling the effects of brain trauma while trying to revive his career - check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. And don't forget about our new newsletter, which you can subscribe to via our website at freshair.npr.org.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thanks for having me, Terry. I really appreciate it."}
{"id": "1108913337", "date": "2022-06-30", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Did the Trump camp help far-right militia groups plan the Jan. 6 attack?", "question_index": 44, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley, Susan Nyakundi and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Therese Madden directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thanks for having me, Terry. I really appreciate it."}
{"id": "1108929824", "date": "2022-07-01", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 0, "text": "Eddie Muller, welcome back to FRESH AIR. It is such a treat to have you back on the show.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's how a lot of the men in film noir end up. They don't get the money, and they don't get the woman. What they do often get is double crossed and killed. \"Double Indemnity\" is one of the films we'"}
{"id": "1108929824", "date": "2022-07-01", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 1, "text": "So let's talk about what you mean when you say film noir.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I am so happy to be here, Terry."}
{"id": "1108929824", "date": "2022-07-01", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 2, "text": "How dark? More, please.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yes, this is - one of the reasons it remains so fresh is because it's debatable. Everybody gets to argue about what it is, which really isn't the case with Westerns or musicals or anything. So t"}
{"id": "1108929824", "date": "2022-07-01", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 3, "text": "And as you've pointed out, most film noir combines, like, the sinister and the sensual.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I also consider film noir to be sort of the anti-myth. If what Hollywood was always selling was that everything's going to be all right and we're all going to live happily ever after, film noir was th"}
{"id": "1108929824", "date": "2022-07-01", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 4, "text": "Well, let's hear another clip. And this one also is from \"Double Indemnity.\" So just to set it up, Walter Neff, played by Fred MacMurray, is an insurance salesman who goes to, like, a wealthy man's home to remind the man to renew his insurance. The maid lets him in. The man's not home, but Barbara Stanwyck appears at the top of the stairs in a bath towel. And that's it for Walter Neff. Like, he's done.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Yeah, I think that's one of the reasons the films remain so popular - is because they're very sexy in a way that films aren't sexy today because they were made, you know, during the existe"}
{"id": "1108929824", "date": "2022-07-01", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 5, "text": "So she puts on some clothes, comes downstairs, and then they talk. Barbara Stanwyck starts first.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Yeah, I think that's one of the reasons the films remain so popular - is because they're very sexy in a way that films aren't sexy today because they were made, you know, during the existe"}
{"id": "1108929824", "date": "2022-07-01", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 6, "text": "Aw.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Walter Neff) That tears it."}
{"id": "1108929824", "date": "2022-07-01", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 7, "text": "Another hallmark of film noir is, like, great dialogue.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Walter Neff) That tears it."}
{"id": "1108929824", "date": "2022-07-01", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 8, "text": "You write that \"Double Indemnity\" was the first time a Hollywood film explicitly explored the means, motives and opportunity of committing murder. Can you elaborate on that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "as you can."}
{"id": "1108929824", "date": "2022-07-01", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 9, "text": "Film noir gave great roles to women in the sense that, you know, there were beautiful, but they were as tough-talking as the men, and they often led the men into crimes that would, of course, backfire. And that's the whole idea of the femme fatale. Like, the woman is, like, seducing the man, leading him into the world of crime, and the man is probably going to get double crossed by the woman or by somebody else. And there's a scene from the film \"Criss Cross\" that you describe as the femme fatale manifesto. This is a 1949 film directed by Robert Siodmak. Set up the scene for us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. In the books that these films were based on - were largely written in the 1930s and were part of a whole renaissance of hard-boiled crime writing that grew up in the pulp magazines and, you know"}
{"id": "1108929824", "date": "2022-07-01", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 10, "text": "So just to set up the scene, Burt Lancaster was just basically taken out of the hospital against his will by one of the henchmen of the guys who double-crossed him. But Lancaster pays off this guy to just take him to the beach house so he could reunite with Yvonne De Carlo. And then as we enter the scene, Yvonne De Carlo is packing up the money, getting ready to leave without him because he's very vulnerable, having just come out of the hospital.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the premise of this movie is that Burt Lancaster has had his heart broken by Yvonne de Carlo. And he has left, and we are meant to imagine that he's like, traveled around the world. But, of cour"}
{"id": "1108929824", "date": "2022-07-01", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 11, "text": "OK. Take that", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Anna) Love, love - you have to watch out for yourself. That's the way it is. I'm sorry. What do you want me to do, throw away all this money? You always have to do what's best for yourself. That's"}
{"id": "1108929824", "date": "2022-07-01", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 12, "text": ". So what makes that the manifesto?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Anna) Love, love - you have to watch out for yourself. That's the way it is. I'm sorry. What do you want me to do, throw away all this money? You always have to do what's best for yourself. That's"}
{"id": "1108929824", "date": "2022-07-01", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 13, "text": "One of the things that Turner did recently was a series called \"Reframed\" in which you and several other of the Turner hosts revisited some classic films and re-examined them, acknowledging how racism and sexism in the films make them problematic but instead of canceling the films, creating a dialogue around them so we could still watch the films, appreciate what's good about them and talk about what, like, is really not good", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It may not be the way you want to be equal, but in that world, that's kind of how it worked out. And so I've always loved that scene because, really, you can look at these films from different persp"}
{"id": "1108929824", "date": "2022-07-01", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 14, "text": ". So what was that series like for you, and did it force you to, like, rethink things about certain films? Or had you already gone through that process?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It may not be the way you want to be equal, but in that world, that's kind of how it worked out. And so I've always loved that scene because, really, you can look at these films from different persp"}
{"id": "1108929824", "date": "2022-07-01", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 15, "text": "One of the films I think you talked about was \"The Searchers.\" So what did you point out in that film that you hadn't noticed when you first saw it - when you were about 14, did you say?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was good. It was good, I think, for all the hosts to go through that. It was a very interesting exercise. I certainly got a lot out of it because it's important to revisit these things and think of"}
{"id": "1108929824", "date": "2022-07-01", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Eddie Muller. He hosts the Turner Classic Movies show called \"Noir Alley,\" which is on Saturdays, usually around midnight or shortly after. It's rebroadcast Sunday mornings. He's also the author of the book \"Dark City: The Lost World Of Film Noir,\" which has just been published in a new expanded edition. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. When you're 14 years old and it's 19-whatever, '74 or something - when I saw that, or 1972, when I saw that movie, you know, it's a cowboy and Indians movie. And now you're really - you don't rea"}
{"id": "1108929824", "date": "2022-07-01", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Eddie Muller, host of the Turner Classic Movies show \"Noir Alley.\" His book \"Dark City: The Lost World Of Film Noir\" has been published in a new and expanded edition. How old were you when you started becoming really absorbed in film noir?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. When you're 14 years old and it's 19-whatever, '74 or something - when I saw that, or 1972, when I saw that movie, you know, it's a cowboy and Indians movie. And now you're really - you don't rea"}
{"id": "1108929824", "date": "2022-07-01", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 18, "text": "Do you think you gravitated to these films 'cause you already had a dark sensibility, or do you think you have a dark sensibility because of these films? I'm guessing you already had a dark sensibility.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I was probably in my early teens, I would say."}
{"id": "1108929824", "date": "2022-07-01", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 19, "text": "Did you watch classic boxing noirs like \"The Harder They Fall\" or \"Body And Soul\" with your father?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I will say this about why I think I was drawn to that world. I do think it had a lot to do with my father, who was a wonderful, wonderful person. And I learned so much about his ability to navigate th"}
{"id": "1108929824", "date": "2022-07-01", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 20, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I'm thinking of these things, you know, my nascent cinephile being, you know? And I'm, like, thinking of how they told the story and why they did this or that. And then I'd hear my dad in the othe"}
{"id": "1108929824", "date": "2022-07-01", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 21, "text": "In most of these boxing movies, there's corruption. And I'm wondering if your father told you stories about corruption in the real boxing world.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1108929824", "date": "2022-07-01", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 22, "text": "I didn't even know there were such hearings.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "today. So..."}
{"id": "1108929824", "date": "2022-07-01", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 23, "text": "Who ever heard of that? Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So much has changed, Terry."}
{"id": "1108929824", "date": "2022-07-01", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 24, "text": "Eddie Muller speaking with Terry Gross last fall. Muller's show \"Noir Alley\" is on Turner Classic Movies Saturday nights, with a rebroadcast Sunday mornings. His book \"Dark City: The Lost World Of Film Noir\" was recently published in a new expanded edition. He'll be back after a short break. And Kevin Whitehead will review the new album by Afro Cuban pianist David Virelles. I'm Dave Davies, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But it was good TV, too. That was a big part of it. It was like early television. And so it was very exciting for the networks to put this stuff on TV because it was America's first chance to see what"}
{"id": "1108929824", "date": "2022-07-01", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 25, "text": "How old were you when you saw your first boxing match in an arena? And what was that like for you?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. Let's get back to Terry's interview with Eddie Muller, host of the show \"Noir Alley\" on Turner Classic Movies. His book \"Dark City: The Lost Wor"}
{"id": "1108929824", "date": "2022-07-01", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 26, "text": "So I want to ask you about a secret that I don't know if you'll tell us or not. But you've written about this in your novel \"The Distance,\" which is set in the boxing world and is based on the lives of your parents - probably loosely based on them. But there's a secret that you learned, I think, when you were in your 20s about your mother that is kind of worked into the book. Could you talk about what that was?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "come out of his mouth before. And it was really something. It made me admire him tremendously. And it was an important lesson to me to learn, like, how to navigate, you know? You deal with different p"}
{"id": "1108929824", "date": "2022-07-01", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 27, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was a family secret that was kept secret from all of the children in the family. And, you know - I don't know. My oldest brother is not really my oldest brother. That's - I'll just put it that w"}
{"id": "1108929824", "date": "2022-07-01", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 28, "text": "Let's talk some more about film noir. Film noir flourishes after World War II. Why then? I mean, because after World War II, it's like, the soldiers are home. The war is over. Times - you know, the economy improves. Things get better for a lot of people - not everybody. But why was that a time, do you think, that these classic, really dark films were made?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "around for quite a while. And in the end, it really didn't matter."}
{"id": "1108929824", "date": "2022-07-01", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 29, "text": "You know, the production code - the Hays Code that you were referring to - is a code of morals that movies had to follow. I mean, married couples weren't even allowed to sleep in the same bed in movies. And crime was not allowed to pay. Like, if you were a bad guy, you would be killed or sent to prison. It had to be punished. So how did film noir get around that? Like, give us one of your favorite examples.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", a certain percentage of the artists are going to say, no, it's - I WANT IT to end this way. This is my story, and I want to tell it this way. And I just think that's - all of these factors came to b"}
{"id": "1108929824", "date": "2022-07-01", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 30, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "tacked on at the end of..."}
{"id": "1108929824", "date": "2022-07-01", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 31, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...The film by the studio head. I'm kind of agreeing with what the artist was presenting in the previous 89 minutes, right?"}
{"id": "1108929824", "date": "2022-07-01", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 32, "text": "Let's take another short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Eddie Muller. He's the host of the show \"Noir Alley\" on Turner Classic Movies. And his book \"Dark City: The Lost World Of Film Noir\" has been published in a new and expanded edition. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "whether or not the audience is going to empathize with that villain. That's the real tricky part. And that's what made noir so special, right? I mean, you can't help yourself. This is especially true "}
{"id": "1108929824", "date": "2022-07-01", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 33, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Eddie Muller, host of the show \"Noir Alley\" on Turner Classic Movies. His book \"Dark City: The Lost World Of Film Noir\" has been published in a new and expanded edition. You know, in your book you write about how gangsters in the film world were not unlike what was happening in Hollywood itself. So I want you to tell us about the union the International Alliance of Theatrical and Stage Employees and its connection to organized crime 'cause, apparently, like, they basically shook down some of the studio heads.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "whether or not the audience is going to empathize with that villain. That's the real tricky part. And that's what made noir so special, right? I mean, you can't help yourself. This is especially true "}
{"id": "1108929824", "date": "2022-07-01", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 34, "text": "Oh, my God. I just spit out the whole sip of water I just take, and I hope I didn't ruin the microphone.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "very true. I want everybody who's listening to understand that this is - I'm talking about history now. I'm not talking about current events. But yeah, when Hollywood was in its earliest days, you kno"}
{"id": "1108929824", "date": "2022-07-01", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 35, "text": "Another thing about film noir is that several of the key people in it were emigres from Germany who left during World War II or just before during the rise of Hitler and the Nazis. So what are some of the stylistic things in film noir that you think came out of German expressionism through the people who fled Germany?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And there were - it was actually Robert Montgomery, the actor, who played a huge role in spending his own money on private investigators who ended up kind of cracking the combination on this and sen"}
{"id": "1108929824", "date": "2022-07-01", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 36, "text": "Well, I'd like to close with some music 'cause the music is such a great part of film noir. Some of the scores are just terrific. And, like, Miklos Rozsa did some really great ones, including \"Double Indemnity.\" And this is a score I particularly like because it has that kind of - the drum is like a pounding heartbeat - like, somewhere between a pounding, anxious heartbeat and a death march. And it's like the musical version of dread and doom. Do you want to say a few words about, like, the music in film noir and its importance?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mostly, I think what the Europeans who came to Hollywood brought with them was, well, as you said, expressionistic sense of art direction and cinematography. And for people who may not be familiar wit"}
{"id": "1108929824", "date": "2022-07-01", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 37, "text": "OK. So we're going to close with the music from the Miklos Rozsa score for \"Double Indemnity.\" And Eddie Muller, it's been so much fun to have you back on the show. Thank you so much for coming.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1108929824", "date": "2022-07-01", "guest": "Fred Macmurray", "title": "'Noir Alley' host celebrates cinema's double crosses and doomed characters", "question_index": 38, "text": "Absolutely.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "An absolute pleasure, Terry. Thank you so much for inviting me. And let's not wait another 25 years."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We wanted to feature something special on this July 4, so we went deep into our archive and pulled out a couple of interviews with perhaps the greatest of all soul singers, Al Green. His string of hits in the '70s include \"Tired Of Being Alone,\" \"Let's Stay Together,\" \"Call Me,\" \"Take Me To The River\" and this one.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 1, "text": "Al Green's soul hits were made with producer Willie Mitchell, the force behind the Memphis-based label Hi Records. Success and Al Green's image as a sex symbol brought its own problems and temptations. In 1974, an angry former girlfriend threw a pot of steaming grits on him. He landed in the hospital with second-degree burns. She died by suicide. This incident got Green to question what he wanted musically and spiritually. By the end of the decade, he decided to give up secular music and for several years performed only gospel. This is from his 1980 Grammy-winning gospel album, \"The Lord Will Make A Way.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Whoa, oh."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 2, "text": "It was in 1976, after being ordained as a minister, that Al Green bought a church in Memphis, the Full Gospel Tabernacle, where he continues to preach. We're going to hear excerpts of my two interviews with him, from 1991 and from 2000, after the publication of his memoir. He started performing at the age of 9 with his family's gospel group in rural Arkansas, where his father was a sharecropper. In our 2000 interview, we talked about his early years.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I'm too close to heaven. I can almost see my journey's end. Whoa, I'm too close to shaking hands with all my, my, my, my, my, my friends. You know, I'm too close. Oh, to heaven. I can't turn"}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 3, "text": "Your father sang gospel music...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I'm too close to heaven. I can almost see my journey's end. Whoa, I'm too close to shaking hands with all my, my, my, my, my, my friends. You know, I'm too close. Oh, to heaven. I can't turn"}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 4, "text": "...And traveled around. You had a brother group.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 5, "text": "You and your brothers sang...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 6, "text": "...Did the whole gospel circuit.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct. That's right."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 7, "text": "When did you start getting serious about singing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "With my dad. Right."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 8, "text": "And why did you get put out of the house?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I got put out of the house."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For listening to Jackie Wilson and Otis Redding and people like that. And Daddy wanted to keep the group a gospel group. I mean, we need to sing gospel. You need to turn that off. And I'm going like, "}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 10, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I said, Oh, Lord. Oh, I got - so he went through the third degree with me, and I was out of there. But I had a friend - luckily enough - lived right in back of us, named Lee Vergis (ph). And his fat"}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 11, "text": "So what kind of material did you sing with The Creations?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...That Palmer James and Curtis Rodgers had started, and they called themselves The Creations. And so they - we used to rehearse in the house every day because we had nothing to do anyway. And every d"}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 12, "text": "Covers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, God. I - we sung everything that was on the radio."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 13, "text": "Al Green, recorded in 2000. We'll return to that interview a little later. In 1991, I spoke to Al Green before a concert in Philadelphia. I wanted to know if he was still singing soul songs or just performing gospel music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right - \"Dock Of The Bay,\" Wilson Pickett, James - I mean, we just some little group. We just sung anything."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 14, "text": "Are there songs of yours that you won't sing now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right - \"Dock Of The Bay,\" Wilson Pickett, James - I mean, we just some little group. We just sung anything."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 15, "text": "Which ones?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, Al Green, I'm going to play \"Let's Stay Together.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I can't sing some songs because I wrote them because of - I love you; baby; darling; I care for you - you know, I wrote them because of sensual love - I want to take you in my arms and sweep you"}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 17, "text": "That's something you still sing, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let's play that."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 18, "text": "OK. Here we go.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I still - I'm singing that tomorrow night."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 19, "text": "That's my guest, Al Green, and his hit recording of \"Let's Stay Together.\" Do you remember how you met Willie Mitchell, who was the person who signed you to Hi Records...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Whispering) Let's stay together. (Singing) I - I'm so in love with you. Whatever you want to do is all right with me. 'Cause you make me feel so brand new. And I want to spend my life with you. Let m"}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 20, "text": "...And produced all the hits that you had with Hi?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 21, "text": "How'd you meet him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I remember how I met him."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I met him in the country, out in in Midland, Texas, and Odessa, Texas, out there. I met him out there, and he asked me about going to Memphis to sing on a recording because he worked at a studio. And "}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 23, "text": "Gee, it really pays to have chutzpah, huh", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And really, so he took me down to Hi. He says, this kid's going to be phenomenal. They says, how do you know that? He says, because he's got it in him. And so he borrowed $1,500 for me from the pres"}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 24, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And really, so he took me down to Hi. He says, this kid's going to be phenomenal. They says, how do you know that? He says, because he's got it in him. And so he borrowed $1,500 for me from the pres"}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 25, "text": "Now, the first song that he asked you to record was a cover of The Beatles' \"I Want To Hold Your Hand,\" right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess. I just told him I just - you know, I wanted to be what I wanted to be."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 26, "text": "It really is hard to believe. Why did he choose that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Would you believe that?"}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 27, "text": "What was your reaction to it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have no idea."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 28, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You would - I sung \"I Want To Hold Your Hand.\" I sung \"Drivin' Wheel.\" We was trying to find Al Green. Let's go - we was trying to find out - who is this guy? Who is this guy with the high falsetto an"}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 29, "text": "Well, that was your song. It was a song you wrote, so...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And everybody was jumping up and jumping up and jumping up. And I says, well, I must be doing something right. So I'll just keep on singing, (singing) People say - and that's - I don't know how tha"}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 30, "text": "...You already had it written.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 31, "text": "And it's such a...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 32, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I said - well, after we got done cutting all these other people's songs - The Beatles and..."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 33, "text": "Well, I'm going to play it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And all these blues songs, and The Temptations' \"I Can't Get Next To You,\" and all these songs, I says, I got a song, too. So Willie says, oh, please - 'cause he'd been cutting all day. We'd been c"}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let's play it. Come on, let's..."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 35, "text": "This is Al Green's first big hit - a song he wrote - \"Tired Of Being Alone.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let's play it."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 36, "text": "So when you wrote \"Tired Of Being Alone,\" were you alone? Were you tired of being alone?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Listen baby. I'm so tired of being alone. I'm so tired of on my own. Won't you help me, girl, just as soon as you can. People say that I found a way to make you say that you love me. But bab"}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 37, "text": "We're listening to my 1991 interview with Al Green. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, I - my girlfriend kept leaving me the key and leaving the apartment, and she would leave me a lot. And I was - and I - so I says, well, how - it was snowing one night. It was snowing, and "}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 38, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're celebrating July 4 by listening back to two of my interviews with the great soul and gospel singer Al Green. Here's more of our first interview from 1991.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, I - my girlfriend kept leaving me the key and leaving the apartment, and she would leave me a lot. And I was - and I - so I says, well, how - it was snowing one night. It was snowing, and "}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 39, "text": "I want to get back to a story you were telling me about, you know, how you had to sing \"I Want To Hold Your Hand\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, I - my girlfriend kept leaving me the key and leaving the apartment, and she would leave me a lot. And I was - and I - so I says, well, how - it was snowing one night. It was snowing, and "}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 40, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, I - my girlfriend kept leaving me the key and leaving the apartment, and she would leave me a lot. And I was - and I - so I says, well, how - it was snowing one night. It was snowing, and "}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 41, "text": "First of all, how did you sing that? I mean, what voice did you use?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 42, "text": "That sounds great", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. I just kind of sang - (singing) Hey, you got that something (vocalizing). I think I understand. When I feel that something, I want to hold your hand. I want to hold your hand. Like that."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 43, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. I just kind of sang - (singing) Hey, you got that something (vocalizing). I think I understand. When I feel that something, I want to hold your hand. I want to hold your hand. Like that."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 44, "text": "Right, right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 45, "text": "There's a story about you that's kind of legendary in music lore. And I'm thinking of the story of the time a woman you were with poured hot grits or hot oatmeal or something...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, we got the feeling now. We got the feeling now. Oh, boy, I don't know. All right, yeah. (Singing) Oh, yeah. I tell you something, girl. I think I - I think you understand. And when I, girl, I sa"}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 46, "text": "Cream of wheat on you while you were in the bath and scalded you and then took her life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Cream of wheat."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 47, "text": "She killed herself afterwards.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 48, "text": "Is there a connection between that story and your being born again?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 49, "text": "How soon after you were born again did you become a minister?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not whatsoever. People in journalism like to say that that was the reason. But I was born again in '73. This incident happened in 1974, so it really don't correlate. I was born again because I was"}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 50, "text": "So when you became a minister and started a church, did you have the church built? Was it a building that already existed, or did you have it built?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was born again in '73. I ran for three years trying to keep from becoming one, and I started a church in December 1974 - 1976, I'm sorry."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 51, "text": "Since you were a star...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I was in a hurry. I went and bought the church. Time I saw it, I says - I didn't know what church it was. My mind was in such a turmoil. I was a star. I could go anywhere. People know - but I was "}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 52, "text": "...And you still are a star, but, I mean, when you started the church...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 53, "text": "...People knew you as Al Green, you know, soul singer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 54, "text": "Did you have a lot of people showing up, especially early on...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 55, "text": "...Just to hear Al Green sing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 56, "text": "Still do.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Still do."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 57, "text": "So how much do you sing in the church?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Still do, yeah."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 58, "text": "You don't let them off easy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I sing quite a bit, but I - so when they come, I also drop the bomb. Yeah. That's it."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 59, "text": "Al Green, recorded in 1991. He's still leading services at his church in Memphis. We'll hear more of the interview I recorded with him in 2000 after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I catch them with that voice, and I hold them with that voice, and then I tell them what they - and they wind up agreeing with me."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 60, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We've gone deep into our archive for the holiday to play back excerpts of two of my interviews with the great soul and gospel singer Al Green. He was ordained in 1976, the same year he bought the Full Gospel Tabernacle Church in Memphis, where he continues to preach. Before we hear more of the interview we recorded in 2000, let's hear music from his 1981 Grammy-winning album, \"Higher Plain.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd like to dedicate this song to little Junior Parker, a cousin of mine that's gone on, but we'd like to kind of carry on in his name. I sing. (Singing) I don't know why I love you like I do after al"}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 61, "text": "How did you want your church to be similar to or different from the churches that you grew up in? And you grew up in a small town in Arkansas before your family moved to Michigan.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Amazing grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me. Oh, Lord. I once was lost, but now I'm found, was blind, but now I see. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 62, "text": "Yeah. So tell me about those churches and what you wanted to keep and what you wanted to not keep.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Absolutely."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 63, "text": "Well, tell me about the churches you went to when your father was sharecropping.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm interested in the church being real. And when you get into that area - and I was told by this by Reverend Blair, Blair T. Hunt, who's gone on now, but he was a very, very, very astute, educated do"}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 64, "text": "Yeah, back to the question.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Back to the question."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 65, "text": "Were you ever afraid watching people who were overcome, overcome by the spirit, and they'd start behaving really differently?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Got to love it. Oh, I can't get her off this. OK, well, the churches were Pentecostal, tambourines, a very expressional, very religious, a very - for real. These people were overcome by something. The"}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 66, "text": "What song had the most meaning for you as a child in church?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Totally. Absolutely. I have been right next door to somebody and they were sitting here perfectly calm a minute ago, and all of a sudden, they all over the place. And I'm going like, what is thi"}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 67, "text": "Now there's a part in your book in which it describes when you first moved north to Grand Rapids, Mich., that, you know, you were kind of small. You weren't used to cities, and you got beaten up by a gang really soon.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, as a child, it would be two things. (Singing) Jesus is is coming back again (vocalizing). Now, this is all way back out in the country now. This is Jacknash, Ark. (ph) - way back, no gravel roads."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 68, "text": "I'm wondering if you ever felt that you were, you know, cool until you got on stage and you started singing and people really got who you were through the songs, you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 69, "text": "Like if you had - if you got more - feel more comfortable on stage and if people thought of you differently on stage than, say, in the street.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know..."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 70, "text": "I don't even mean clothes. I just mean...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, we were too poor for that. I mean, no, we didn't have any cool, anything like that. We just had a pair of jeans and a..."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 71, "text": "So how did it feel after, you know, feeling that not that many people loved you, that you were a loner, to be on stage and be this kind of lightning rod for adoration?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, I know what you're saying, but I'm trying to express the best way I can put it. No, I wasn't cool or anything like that. We were very poor. There was five boys, five girls. So that's 10 people"}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 72, "text": "Did you ever think that you would be a sharecropper yourself before you had a singing career, before you got out of Arkansas? When you were a kid, did you say, well, if this is going to be my life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, well, that was kind of weird because I was young, fine, hips, beautiful. And then again, I was different from everybody else because everybody said I was some kind of vert, some kind of - not a "}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 73, "text": "How...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I never said that. And my daddy didn't believe it was going to be his, either. And that's why we got out of there. One night, about 12 o'clock, all of a sudden, Daddy says, hey, let's go. And Mom "}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 74, "text": "How old were you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And left all the stuff."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 75, "text": "We're listening back to my interview with Al Green recorded in 2000. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 76, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with Al Green in 2000.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 77, "text": "You were born-again in what year was it, '75?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 78, "text": "'73.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was born-again in 1973..."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 79, "text": "And in the book, it says that when you told Willie Mitchell that, your producer, he said to you that, you know, there's going to come a time very soon you're not going to want to sing secular songs anymore. You're just going to be singing gospel music. And Willie Mitchell said that he didn't produce that kind of music, so he wouldn't be able to work with you after that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...By the grace of God. Yes, Lord."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 80, "text": "Were you surprised when you had your born-again experience?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he said he couldn't cut gospel music 'cause he had never cut one before, and he hadn't. But I was so determined. I went and got a boy from Alabama, Bill Cantrell, and asked him if he could build"}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 81, "text": "You have your own church now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God, yes. I was at a party. I was in San Francisco. I mean, I played the Cow Palace. I had my little diamond on, you know, and I called and had my girlfriend to fly out from Detroit. I'll take "}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 82, "text": "You've had that church for how many years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 83, "text": "Do you often think, like - who would you have been, what would you have been doing if it wasn't for being born again and if it wasn't for your church? What life would you be leading? Would you even be alive?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Twenty-two years."}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 84, "text": "So you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a good question right there. Man, that's a good question 'cause there's so many of my friends that started when I started - even in Philadelphia here, and all around the country - Detroit and i"}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 85, "text": "Al Green, I really wish we had more time, but we have to let you go. It's been such a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so very much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So yeah, I was - I would be afraid to take a chance like that. I would rather hold onto the Lord and make Him and let Him be the master of my life than me trying to do what we were doing coming from t"}
{"id": "1108950413", "date": "2022-07-04", "guest": "Al Green", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates July 4 with soul singer Al Green", "question_index": 86, "text": "The Reverend Al Green, recorded in 2000 after the publication of his memoir. He continues to preach at the Full Gospel Tabernacle Church in Memphis, Tenn. After we take a short break, Justin Chang will review a science fiction film set during a pandemic of sudden memory loss. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'll go and sign books."}
{"id": "1110244084", "date": "2022-07-07", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the Supreme Court's move to the right could further transform life in the U.S.", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I am Terry Gross. The Supreme Court has become a conservative juggernaut, issuing far-reaching decisions that will transform American life. That's what my guest, Adam Liptak, writes. He covers the Supreme Court for The New York Times. The examples he offers include eliminating the constitutional right to abortion, recognizing a Second Amendment right to carry guns outside the home, making it harder to address climate change, and expanding the role of religion in public life. With the court's new supermajority of conservative justices, we can expect the judicial philosophy known as originalism to be the framework for future decisions. It's a philosophy that tries to determine the original understanding of the Founding Fathers without addressing how everything from social norms to technology and weapons have changed over the centuries. This philosophy is likely to have a profound effect on future court decisions. Adam Liptak, welcome back to FRESH AIR. The court seems divided in a way that seems more personal than ever, more angry than ever. And as an example, I'll give the joint dissent by the three liberal justices on the abortion decision. They write, the majority has overruled Roe and Casey for one and only one reason - because it has always despised them. The majority therefore substitutes a rule by judges for the rule of law. That sounds like a critique of the decision overturning Roe and a critique of the conservative supermajority. It also sounds like their dissent is sounding an alarm to the public. How do you read it?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1110244084", "date": "2022-07-07", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the Supreme Court's move to the right could further transform life in the U.S.", "question_index": 1, "text": "So many Americans are still reeling from the overturning of Roe. Would you explain your understanding of the logic behind Justice Alito's majority opinion?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I agree with you that it's a very bitter critique of a court that seems to be in an exceptional hurry. The addition of three justices appointed by Donald Trump has created a conservative supermajority"}
{"id": "1110244084", "date": "2022-07-07", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the Supreme Court's move to the right could further transform life in the U.S.", "question_index": 2, "text": "So the Casey decision, which further restricted access to abortion but affirmed the constitutional right to abortion, that was based on the 14th Amendment - you know, equal justice under the law. But didn't Justice Alito say that that only - that the 14th Amendment only pertained to laws that were on the books when it was passed in 1868?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There are two steps to it, Terry. The first is his analysis of whether the Constitution speaks to this question at all. He says that, you know, sort of obviously, the document doesn't include the word"}
{"id": "1110244084", "date": "2022-07-07", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the Supreme Court's move to the right could further transform life in the U.S.", "question_index": 3, "text": "But those cases hadn't been tested yet 'cause the amendment was just passed. So I don't - I - like, I really - I'm baffled by the logic behind that. And also, it's supposed to apply to the future and to future laws and future interpretations of the law.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, this goes back to the point you made a second ago, that this court is committed to originalism, and it asks the question of, what was the original public meaning of the 14th Amendment in 1868? A"}
{"id": "1110244084", "date": "2022-07-07", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the Supreme Court's move to the right could further transform life in the U.S.", "question_index": 4, "text": "Women couldn't vote yet.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So I make two points. One is that the people he's talking about who drafted and ratified the 14th Amendment did not include one significant constituency, which is to say women. The people..."}
{"id": "1110244084", "date": "2022-07-07", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the Supreme Court's move to the right could further transform life in the U.S.", "question_index": 5, "text": "Justice Alito, in his majority opinion, wrote that nothing in this opinion should be understood to cast doubt on precedents that do not concern abortion. What's the logic behind limiting such a profound precedent to just abortion?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And the second point is - and this is a - you know, the dispute about originalism versus what, broadly speaking, the alternative is - people call it sometimes living constitutionalism - whether"}
{"id": "1110244084", "date": "2022-07-07", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the Supreme Court's move to the right could further transform life in the U.S.", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yeah. And Clarence Thomas, in the concurrence that you referred to, called the decision on marriage equality, sexual relations that aren't heterosexual relations and contraception, he called those decisions demonstrably erroneous decisions. How are they demonstrably erroneous in Thomas' point of view?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, that's like a sentence. That's an assertion that cuts against the logic of the opinion. The logic of the opinion would suggest that the right to same-sex marriage is at risk, the right not t"}
{"id": "1110244084", "date": "2022-07-07", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the Supreme Court's move to the right could further transform life in the U.S.", "question_index": 7, "text": "In Justice Roberts' concurring opinion, he would have upheld the Mississippi law banning abortion after 15 weeks but would not have struck down Roe. He's an incrementalist, as you describe him. But as an incrementalist, do you think that he would have liked to see this decision as one step closer to striking down Roe, but just, like, take it more gradually? But, I mean, do you think his ultimate goal would have been to strike down Roe but just more slowly?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In precisely the same way he thinks a right to abortion is not contained in the Constitution or inferable from the 14th Amendment and what the drafters and ratifiers of the 14th Amendment meant in 186"}
{"id": "1110244084", "date": "2022-07-07", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the Supreme Court's move to the right could further transform life in the U.S.", "question_index": 8, "text": "You write that with the decision that struck down Roe, the court humiliated Chief Justice Roberts and rejected major elements of his jurisprudence. Can you explain what you mean by that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's hard to say. I don't think John Roberts is a fan of Roe. But nor is he a fan of what he called at his confirmation hearings jolts to the legal system when the court moves too fast. So I think it'"}
{"id": "1110244084", "date": "2022-07-07", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the Supreme Court's move to the right could further transform life in the U.S.", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well, let's take a break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Adam Liptak, who has been covering the Supreme Court for The New York Times for 14 years. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the argument took place in December. It was clear that the argument that the chief justice had - a kind of compromise that would have meant a serious blow to abortion rights in the United States"}
{"id": "1110244084", "date": "2022-07-07", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the Supreme Court's move to the right could further transform life in the U.S.", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. My guest is Adam Liptak, Supreme Court reporter for The New York Times. We're talking about the term that just ended and the court's swing further to the right with its new conservative supermajority. Let's talk about the decision pertaining to guns and a state's ability to regulate who can carry a gun outside the home. And the Supreme Court struck down the state's ability for - to regulate guns outside the home. What was the premise of that decision?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the argument took place in December. It was clear that the argument that the chief justice had - a kind of compromise that would have meant a serious blow to abortion rights in the United States"}
{"id": "1110244084", "date": "2022-07-07", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the Supreme Court's move to the right could further transform life in the U.S.", "question_index": 11, "text": "That's another thing that I really don't understand about the originalist philosophy of the conservatives on the Supreme Court. If they want to follow as closely as they can the original understanding of what the founders wrote in the Constitution, why don't they notice that the Second Amendment applies to a well-regulated militia? So you've got militia, and you've got well-regulated, and yet they seem to oppose any regulation of individuals who are not members of a militia.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The case involved a New York law that required people seeking a license to carry a gun outside the home to have a proper cause, a reason to get a license, something that distinguishes that person's ne"}
{"id": "1110244084", "date": "2022-07-07", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the Supreme Court's move to the right could further transform life in the U.S.", "question_index": 12, "text": "So between the court's ruling on guns and its ruling on abortion, what kind of future court actions are you expecting to see?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So they read the first clause of the Second Amendment to be an illustration of what the amendment is about and not a limiting clause. And it'll make more sense if I just read you the text. It says, (r"}
{"id": "1110244084", "date": "2022-07-07", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the Supreme Court's move to the right could further transform life in the U.S.", "question_index": 13, "text": "So we can expect a lot of test cases on certain limits in both abortion and guns.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there are a lot of unanswered questions in both cases. So the court has said states can do almost anything they like in restricting or allowing abortion. But there are unanswered questions. Like"}
{"id": "1110244084", "date": "2022-07-07", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the Supreme Court's move to the right could further transform life in the U.S.", "question_index": 14, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Adam Liptak, the Supreme Court reporter for The New York Times. We'll talk more after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Quite right."}
{"id": "1110244084", "date": "2022-07-07", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the Supreme Court's move to the right could further transform life in the U.S.", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I am Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Adam Liptak, who covers the Supreme Court for The New York Times. He's been covering the court for 14 years. We're talking about the term that just ended and the court's swing further to the right with its new conservative supermajority. You write that this is the most conservative Supreme Court term since 1931 and that the court's power is amplified because of gridlock in Congress. Would you explain the connection?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Quite right."}
{"id": "1110244084", "date": "2022-07-07", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the Supreme Court's move to the right could further transform life in the U.S.", "question_index": 16, "text": "How do you expect that to be evident in the Supreme Court decision preventing the Environmental Protection Agency from regulating power plant emissions including carbon emissions that contribute greatly to climate change?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. The court issues two basic kinds of decisions. Sometimes, it tells us what the Constitution means, and those are basically showstoppers. There, the court essentially has the last word unless you"}
{"id": "1110244084", "date": "2022-07-07", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the Supreme Court's move to the right could further transform life in the U.S.", "question_index": 17, "text": "It appears that the court is intent on moving toward deregulation 'cause in another decision and - earlier, the court ruled that the CDC wasn't authorized to impose a moratorium on evictions during the early days of the pandemic and that the Occupational Safety and Health Administration wasn't authorized to tell large employers to have their workers vaccinated or undergo frequent testing. So are these decisions weakening the power of all regulatory agencies?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If Congress were not so polarized, and if it followed the wishes of the average American voter, it would take some steps, perhaps more modest than some would like. But it would take some steps to addr"}
{"id": "1110244084", "date": "2022-07-07", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the Supreme Court's move to the right could further transform life in the U.S.", "question_index": 18, "text": "You know, it's interesting to contrast the majority and minority opinions on the EPA ruling because as you've pointed out, the majority opinion doesn't mention climate change, but the dissenting opinion does.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Let me answer in a narrow way and then in a broader way. The narrow way is the court has lately adopted and given real teeth to what they call the major questions doctrine. It says that if an age"}
{"id": "1110244084", "date": "2022-07-07", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the Supreme Court's move to the right could further transform life in the U.S.", "question_index": 19, "text": "Well, let's take another break here, then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Adam Liptak, Supreme Court reporter for The New York Times. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR. (SOUNDTRACK OF RHYTHM FUTURE QUARTET'S \"IBERIAN SUNRISE\")", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So sometimes, the conservative majority writes these formal, legal opinions that don't even mention or take account of the crisis in question - whether it's the pandemic, whether it's climate change -"}
{"id": "1110244084", "date": "2022-07-07", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the Supreme Court's move to the right could further transform life in the U.S.", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Adam Liptak, the Supreme Court reporter for The New York Times. So there's a big voting rights case coming before the Supreme Court next term. Would you describe that case?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So sometimes, the conservative majority writes these formal, legal opinions that don't even mention or take account of the crisis in question - whether it's the pandemic, whether it's climate change -"}
{"id": "1110244084", "date": "2022-07-07", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the Supreme Court's move to the right could further transform life in the U.S.", "question_index": 21, "text": "So with state Supreme Courts no longer having the ability to overturn electoral decisions from the legislature, even if the state Supreme Court considers those new laws to be unconstitutional, those new laws pertaining to voting rights and elections, is it conceivable that this could lead to the possibility of state legislatures appointing fake electors consistent with the scheme that Trump and his lawyers and other of his supporters had to use fake electors to overturn the 2020 presidential election and hand it to Trump instead of Biden?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, this is what an election law professor called an 800-pound gorilla of a case. The Constitution has a couple of provisions in it that says state legislatures get to set voting rules for federal e"}
{"id": "1110244084", "date": "2022-07-07", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the Supreme Court's move to the right could further transform life in the U.S.", "question_index": 22, "text": "So if the Supreme Court says next term that state Supreme Courts have no ability to overturn unconstitutional election laws, does that mean that state legislatures, which are now largely Republican-controlled, will have absolutely no oversight?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's certainly what legal experts fear."}
{"id": "1110244084", "date": "2022-07-07", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the Supreme Court's move to the right could further transform life in the U.S.", "question_index": 23, "text": "So that leaves a lot of room for things that might not be constitutional.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The only oversight comes from Congress. And just to repeat myself, Congress doesn't do anything."}
{"id": "1110244084", "date": "2022-07-07", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the Supreme Court's move to the right could further transform life in the U.S.", "question_index": 24, "text": "I mean, that undermines the whole democratic principle of checks and balances that we were allegedly founded on.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let me read you one of these clauses because this gives you a sense of the kind of formalism that may be attractive to some justices. The clause at issue in the case the court's going to hear, the ele"}
{"id": "1110244084", "date": "2022-07-07", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the Supreme Court's move to the right could further transform life in the U.S.", "question_index": 25, "text": "What recourse do state Supreme Courts have?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Now, I guess the other argument is that the framers meant to pluck this organ of a state government out of the general scheme and empower them. Legal scholars say there's no historical evidence"}
{"id": "1110244084", "date": "2022-07-07", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the Supreme Court's move to the right could further transform life in the U.S.", "question_index": 26, "text": "Let's look at religion and the major decisions that the court made on religion this term. The most recent one involves an assistant coach who prayed on the 50-yard line after games, and the court upheld his right to do that. What was in contention in this decision?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "At the moment, they maintain their power. But should the Supreme Court rule in a different direction and say that state legislatures in the election setting and in rules governing federal elections ge"}
{"id": "1110244084", "date": "2022-07-07", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the Supreme Court's move to the right could further transform life in the U.S.", "question_index": 27, "text": "Is the court elevating the religious rights of Muslims?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This case really captured the imagination of my readers. I think I probably got more feedback, more online comments, more readership on this case than in some ways the big cases we were talking about."}
{"id": "1110244084", "date": "2022-07-07", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the Supreme Court's move to the right could further transform life in the U.S.", "question_index": 28, "text": "Are there other ways the court has recently expanded the place of religion and public life, kind of blurring the line between church and state?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There are scattered cases where, say, a Muslim prisoner is allowed to have a beard. But the cases that reach the court - and there have been studies on this - these days, in contrast to the Warren Cou"}
{"id": "1110244084", "date": "2022-07-07", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the Supreme Court's move to the right could further transform life in the U.S.", "question_index": 29, "text": "Well, let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Adam Liptak, Supreme Court reporter for The New York Times. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The court has methodically made it easier for religious schools to get public aid. The case this term was part of this trend - concerned a Maine law. Maine is so rural that a lot of places in Maine do"}
{"id": "1110244084", "date": "2022-07-07", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the Supreme Court's move to the right could further transform life in the U.S.", "question_index": 30, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Adam Liptak, the Supreme Court reporter for The New York Times. We're talking about the term that just ended and the court's swing further to the right with its new conservative supermajority. Clarence Thomas, Justice Thomas, didn't recuse himself from a decision regarding former President Trump's request to block release of White House records pertaining to January 6. Then, a couple of months later, it became public that Thomas' wife, Ginni Thomas, who's a conspiracy theorist, wanted to overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election. She even texted Trump's chief of staff, Mark Meadows, urging him to take action. There will be other decisions pertaining to January 6 likely to come before the Supreme Court. My understanding is, like, no one has any power, except for Thomas himself, to decide whether he needs to recuse himself from decisions pertaining to January 6 because of his wife's involvement in trying to overturn the election. What's your understanding of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Vocalizing)."}
{"id": "1110244084", "date": "2022-07-07", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the Supreme Court's move to the right could further transform life in the U.S.", "question_index": 31, "text": "Stepping back for a minute, was there anything - you've been covering the Supreme Court for 14 years. Was there anything this term that really took you by surprise?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's my understanding. Also, I want to add one thing to what you said, Terry. He not only didn't recuse himself; he was the sole noted dissent in favor of former President Trump. So he was an active"}
{"id": "1110244084", "date": "2022-07-07", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the Supreme Court's move to the right could further transform life in the U.S.", "question_index": 32, "text": "Some people who are very concerned about the far-right supermajority on the Supreme Court now think that President Biden should increase the size of the court and appoint more justices to counterbalance the conservatives and dilute their power. What would the impact and possible consequences of that be if it happened, if the president decided to actually do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, I was pretty confident going into the argument of the abortion case that the position sketched out by Chief Justice Roberts, that they'd uphold the Mississippi law but not do something as drama"}
{"id": "1110244084", "date": "2022-07-07", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the Supreme Court's move to the right could further transform life in the U.S.", "question_index": 33, "text": "Adam Liptak, thank you so much for coming back to our show. We often have you on at the end of a Supreme Court term, and I'm so glad we got to do that this year.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the president would need Congress to be on board, and that doesn't seem likely in light of the filibuster rule in particular. But assuming it happened, it wouldn't be out of keeping with other i"}
{"id": "1110244084", "date": "2022-07-07", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the Supreme Court's move to the right could further transform life in the U.S.", "question_index": 34, "text": "Adam Liptak covers the Supreme Court for The New York Times. If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, like this week's interview with pediatric neurosurgeon Jay Wellons or our holiday archive interviews with the great soul singer Al Green, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. And if you want to hear stories from behind the scenes at FRESH AIR, check out our newsletter. You can subscribe via our website, freshair.npr.org.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "1110244084", "date": "2022-07-07", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the Supreme Court's move to the right could further transform life in the U.S.", "question_index": 35, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Seth Kelley, Susan Nyakundi and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. I am Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "1110475932", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer star Megan Rapinoe says patriotism means demanding better of ourselves", "question_index": 0, "text": "Megan Rapinoe, welcome to FRESH AIR. When you started playing soccer when you were around 6, there wasn't, like, a girls team for you to be part of, so you and your twin sister became members of the boys team. How did it feel for you as a girl to be on the boys team 'cause, you know, another thing you say in your book is that you don't think you ever dominated a team the way you dominated that boys team when you were a child?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross. Today, we're listening to our interviews with two new recipients of the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the highest civilian honor. We just h"}
{"id": "1110475932", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer star Megan Rapinoe says patriotism means demanding better of ourselves", "question_index": 1, "text": "And, you know, I'm also wondering, like, did the boys really appreciate that? Like, she's really great, and she's on our team. Or did they think it was weird or maybe even uncomfortable that a girl was, like, beating them? You know, you were on the same team, but you were better than they were.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1110475932", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer star Megan Rapinoe says patriotism means demanding better of ourselves", "question_index": 2, "text": "You write that you knew you were never going to be the fastest player or the strongest player, so you had to develop a style rooted in something other than beating people through physical force. Do you think that thinking that you wouldn't be, like, the strongest or the fastest helped you develop your footwork?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I don't think I ever really, really thought about it, probably until, you know, fifth or sixth grade - I think that's when, you know, gender lines are drawn more clearly - because, you know,"}
{"id": "1110475932", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer star Megan Rapinoe says patriotism means demanding better of ourselves", "question_index": 3, "text": "So I want to ask you about one of your most spectacular plays, which a lot of us have seen either when it happened or on YouTube 'cause the video went viral. It was in 2011. You kick the ball across the field - a big, amazing cross - and then Abby Wambach headed it into the goal. So I want you to describe it from your perspective.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Definitely. I think it helped me develop not just my footwork, but my awareness in the game. I mean, obviously, the ultimate goal in soccer is to, you know, get the ball and score. Some peop"}
{"id": "1110475932", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer star Megan Rapinoe says patriotism means demanding better of ourselves", "question_index": 4, "text": "You were one of the first women on the U.S. national women's soccer team to come out. Although, you say there were plenty of other women who were gay but not out", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I was like, I don't know where else you would be. But you better be somewhere around where I'm trying to kick it. And I just heaved it. I just kicked it literally as hard as I could. And it was one "}
{"id": "1110475932", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer star Megan Rapinoe says patriotism means demanding better of ourselves", "question_index": 5, "text": ". You say you were one of the only gay players at the time, which is hilarious considering how many gay people were really on the team", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I was like, I don't know where else you would be. But you better be somewhere around where I'm trying to kick it. And I just heaved it. I just kicked it literally as hard as I could. And it was one "}
{"id": "1110475932", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer star Megan Rapinoe says patriotism means demanding better of ourselves", "question_index": 6, "text": ". So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I was like, I don't know where else you would be. But you better be somewhere around where I'm trying to kick it. And I just heaved it. I just kicked it literally as hard as I could. And it was one "}
{"id": "1110475932", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer star Megan Rapinoe says patriotism means demanding better of ourselves", "question_index": 7, "text": "...What made you decide, like, you were going to publicly come out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1110475932", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer star Megan Rapinoe says patriotism means demanding better of ourselves", "question_index": 8, "text": "And what changed afterwards?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I honestly felt like - I mean, even going back to when I first sort of discovered I was gay myself, which happened very shortly after I got to college, I never struggled with that. I was act"}
{"id": "1110475932", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer star Megan Rapinoe says patriotism means demanding better of ourselves", "question_index": 9, "text": "So I want to read something that you reprint in your memoir. And this is what U.S. Soccer said in an official statement. And you say, it might as well have been headed, dear Megan. So the statement was, (reading) representing your country is a privilege and honor for any player or coach that is associated with U.S. Soccer's national team. In front of national and often global audiences, the playing of our national anthem is an opportunity for our men's and women's national team players and coaches to reflect upon the liberties and freedom we all appreciate in the country. As part of the privilege to represent your country, we have an expectation that our players and coaches will stand and honor our flag while the national anthem is played. What was your reaction when you read that statement?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...From most people, I would say, but I think bad in the mainstream sense, bad in the, you know, Twittersphere and all of that, but - and bad among, you know, white people. But, actually, I would say "}
{"id": "1110475932", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer star Megan Rapinoe says patriotism means demanding better of ourselves", "question_index": 10, "text": "What are some of the repercussions you faced professionally?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I couldn't believe it. I think I was truly sort of dumbstruck. It really upset me. The nerve and the audacity to say what they did in that statement - it is an honor and a privilege that we all have i"}
{"id": "1110475932", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer star Megan Rapinoe says patriotism means demanding better of ourselves", "question_index": 11, "text": "Were you taken out of the lineup?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They're sort of gray repercussions, I'll say. You know, in - like, in terms of sponsorships, I didn't lose any sponsorships, which I think is great. Obviously, Nike's a big sponsor of mine. They have "}
{"id": "1110475932", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer star Megan Rapinoe says patriotism means demanding better of ourselves", "question_index": 12, "text": "U.S. Soccer did eventually lift the ban. When did they lift it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In a sense, yes. So this is where the gray part comes in. I - you know, I was - I had played in those two games, in the first two games that I had, you know, knelt. I think that was in October or so. "}
{"id": "1110475932", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer star Megan Rapinoe says patriotism means demanding better of ourselves", "question_index": 13, "text": "And did Colin Kaepernick ever get in touch with you after you kneel?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just recently. As, you know, the tragic murder of George Floyd, Ahmaud Arbery and Breonna Taylor, as the protests subsequently, you know, swept the nation, I think that they realized that that policy "}
{"id": "1110475932", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Megan Rapinoe", "title": "Soccer star Megan Rapinoe says patriotism means demanding better of ourselves", "question_index": 14, "text": "Megan Rapinoe, thank you so much for talking with us. And congratulations again on your engagement and also on the new book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes. We - yeah. We're in touch with each other for sure."}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 0, "text": "Does it affect you differently when you're off the set if you're playing, you know, a drug kingpin who will willingly kill somebody if he thinks it's necessary versus, you know, a professor whose, like, mission is training his students to be winning debaters? I mean, that's such two different kinds of personalities. Does it change what you take home with you at night?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University in New Jersey, in for Terry Gross. Today we're going to listen to portions of our interviews with an actor a"}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 1, "text": "Well, we should hear a clip from \"American Gangster.\" And you play a drug kingpin in Harlem in this. And you've brought up your family from the South, and you've basically made your brothers into foot soldiers for your operation. And one of your brothers, played by Chiwetel Ejiofor, is kind of so kind of taken by, like, the money and what he could do with it. So he's wearing this outfit with, you know, like, a - it's the early '70s with a big collar and a big hat. And you think it's, like, much too flashy. And in this scene here, you're explaining why that's a problem.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I read a book years ago, \"Cagney By Cagney,\" written by James Cagney. And he talked about, you know, it's his job. He's at the studio. You do your job. You know, you shut your door, and you "}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 2, "text": "That's my guest Denzel Washington with Chiwetel Ejiofor in a scene from \"American Gangster.\" I remember when I interviewed Michael Caine, he talked about how, when you're playing somebody who's very powerful, you shouldn't, like, move around and fidget a lot, gesture a lot because powerful people don't have to do all that because the people underneath them are hanging on the powerful person's every word and looking for every clue that they can about what his mood is and what's he going to do next and how he's reacting to things. And it seems to me like you're that kind of person in \"American Gangster.\" You don't move around a lot. You don't gesture a lot. You've got a lot of power. And you know you do. You met Frank Lucas, the person who your role is based on. Was he like that when you met him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Huey Lucas) I went shopping."}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 3, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, you know, Gotti moved around a lot. He had a lot of power. I don't know. I personally wouldn't hold any hard, fast rules about who moves around a lot or who doesn't. I've never thought o"}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 4, "text": "I really like \"American Gangster\" and your performance in it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So you see a guy who's this violent who can walk down the street, shoot somebody in the head, come back inside and forget. His only question was, what was I talking about before I was interrupted? You"}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 5, "text": "Does it ever bother you to play people who aren't role models? Like, in life, so many people see you as a role model. Does it bother you? Like, in \"The Great Debaters,\" you are very role model. You know, you're very ethical.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 6, "text": "One of your most known role model performances is in \"Training Day,\" for which you won an Oscar. And I'd like to play a short scene from that. And in this scene, you're a cop who is really brutal when he wants to be and really nasty. And you're initiating this new rookie cop who's your partner, played by Ethan Hawke. And in this scene, Ethan Hawke has been trying to apprehend two suspects - probably, like, crack addicts. They've beaten him up. He's finally gotten them handcuffed. You haven't helped him at all. You've basically just been watching. And then after he gets them handcuffed, you kind of move in, insult them, take $60 out of one of their pockets. And you decide not to arrest them. You just leave them there. And Ethan Hawke is mystified. And here's the conversation in the car afterwards.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it doesn't bother me. I mean, I'm selfish, I think. I think an artist has to be. You know, I'm not worried about what people think. I'm going to play the parts that I find interesting. That's what"}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 7, "text": "That's my guest, Denzel Washington, with Ethan Hawke in a scene from \"Training Day.\" And Denzel Washington won an Oscar for his performance in this film. And of course, after what we just heard, since you've said it takes a wolf to catch a wolf, you teach Ethan Hawke how to howl", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Alonzo) What the [expletive] you talking about? You don't know what you're talking about, Betty Boop. Got nothing but [expletive] between your ears. They build jails 'cause of me. Judges have hand"}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 8, "text": "like a wolf. You make him howl...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Alonzo) What the [expletive] you talking about? You don't know what you're talking about, Betty Boop. Got nothing but [expletive] between your ears. They build jails 'cause of me. Judges have hand"}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Imitates wolf howl)."}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 10, "text": "Now, I read that you wanted to make sure that this cop, your - you know, the character you played, was killed at the end or that there were real consequences for his behavior.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 11, "text": "Was that not the case when you first saw the script?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 12, "text": "And why did you insist on that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not to the degree that was satisfying to me. Like, as I told the director, I couldn't justify him living in the worst way unless he died in the worst way - that the community turns their back on h"}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 13, "text": "Uh-huh", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just thought that's what he deserved. There was a bit of a cop-out the way the script was, and it smelled like they were looking to do a part two or something."}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 14, "text": ". There is a scene in this where you're holding two guns on someone, and you kind of scrape the guns against each other as if they're two knives that you're sharpening. Now, was that a bit of business that you came up with when you were holding the guns?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just thought that's what he deserved. There was a bit of a cop-out the way the script was, and it smelled like they were looking to do a part two or something."}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well, let's talk about another film that's very important in your career, and that's \"Malcolm X,\" which was directed by Spike Lee. Let's hear a scene from it. And this is a scene in which you're making a speech.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course. I mean, you know, it's just rhythm, you know? Acting is like music, you know? And you improvise, and you - it's like jazz, you know? There's no rhyme or reason to it. It's not a plan. I jus"}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 16, "text": "That's Denzel Washington in a scene from \"Malcolm X\" for which he was nominated for an Academy Award. When did Malcolm X first enter your consciousness?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Malcolm X) This is what he does."}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yeah? What'd you think, looking back?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I hadn't heard that in about 15 years."}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 18, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was interesting. I hadn't heard it in a long time. I hadn't heard it since I'd seen the movie, I guess. Sounded pretty good."}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 19, "text": "Since...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I believed him."}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 20, "text": "So when did Malcolm X enter your consciousness?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When did I what now, you said?"}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 21, "text": "Let's go to the very early Denzel era. And let's see if our listeners recognize you in this scene. And hint - it's the pilot for a series, a TV series, that ran a long time, and you co-starred throughout the run. And it helped make you a star. So here we go, the very early Denzel.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2008 interview with actor, director and producer Denzel Washington. The Oscar- and Tony-winning actor has just been awarded the Presidential Medal of Freed"}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 22, "text": "That's your first scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Dr. Chandler) No, there's a plus-two over four tenderness in the right upper quadrant. The liver is 10 centimeters in breadth, 2 centimeters below the right costal margin. There is a palpable mass"}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 23, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I mispronounced that."}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 24, "text": "Well, that's you in your first scene in the pilot of \"St. Elsewhere.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's cholelithia (ph). I think it's cholelithiasis. It sounds like I said cholithiasis (ph). I believe - any doctors out there, if they call in, let me know. I believe it's cholelithiasis."}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 25, "text": "Yeah, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Twenty-five years ago."}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 26, "text": "That is. I hope you never had it, whatever the heck it is", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I remember that cholelithiasis. That's interesting."}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I remember that cholelithiasis. That's interesting."}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 28, "text": "How did you get the part on \"St. Elsewhere\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I couldn't tell you what it is."}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 29, "text": "The movie version was \"A Soldier's Story.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was doing a great play - and I say that 'cause it was - called \"A Soldier's Play,\" which went on to become \"A Soldier's Story\" - you know, won a Pulitzer Prize in 1982."}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 30, "text": "What was the audition like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, the movie version was \"A Soldier's Story.\" The play was an off-Broadway play in New York, and they came to New York reading actors. I never really wanted to do television. I wanted to do plays a"}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 31, "text": "You don't remember...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Shoot, that was 25 years ago. I don't remember. I guess it was good. I got the part."}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 32, "text": "...What you had to do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess it was good."}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 33, "text": "It's from the pilot.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no. No, I - actually, I don't. I imagine I - maybe I read that scene. Maybe that's what I had to do, you know? And did you say that was from the pilot?"}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 34, "text": "And to rattle off all those...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was from - so maybe that's - that's probably what I had to read. That's a perfect example of where your speech training and training in the classics, you know, Shakespearian training, comes in - "}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 35, "text": "...Medical conditions most people don't know. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To rattle off all the - yeah, all of that..."}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 36, "text": "So straighten me out on something. When I say your name, should it be Denzel, equal beats on both syllables, or Denzel, more emphasis on the second syllable?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Techno speak - yeah, exactly. I don't know. Cholelithiasis - I do remember that, though."}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 37, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The doctor who delivered my father was named Doctor Denzel. And he had 11 or 12 brothers and sisters, so maybe they were running out of names. And they just named him after the doctor. So his name was"}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 38, "text": "Now, when you were growing up, your mother owned a hair salon?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She said, all right, from now on - she says this is not true, but this is the way I remember it. But she said, from now on, you're Denzel. So I was named - I was called Denzel, so we would know who sh"}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 39, "text": "And your father was a Pentecostal minister who also worked for the water department.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 40, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And S. Klein's On The Square."}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 41, "text": "Klein's department store? Oh, oh, I see this is a different...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was the night watchman for Klein's up in the office..."}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 42, "text": "On Union Square.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...On Central Avenue in - yeah, well, the original one was on the square - 14th Street, I believe."}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 43, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 44, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And - because it used to be called S. Klein's On The Square."}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 45, "text": "Did you go to his church?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so they had one up in Yonkers on Central Avenue, and he was the night man there. And he was a minister."}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 46, "text": "How often - once a week or more?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, of course not. Yeah, you kidding me? - all the time, more than I wanted to, trust me. I used to try to sneak out - had to go to church."}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 47, "text": "One last question - is there a particular movie that meant a lot to you when you were growing up, that you watched many times?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Once a - shoot, all day Sunday, and then we - not that - because he worked so much. You know, we didn't have so many services during the week. But I was there all day on Sunday in Mamaroneck."}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 48, "text": "What would that be?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yup."}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 49, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Wizard Of Oz.\""}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 50, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, \"Bonanza\" was huge. I mean, you know, when I was a kid, \"Bonanza\" was huge."}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 51, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was it."}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 52, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's what we got to watch Sunday night, \"Bonanza,\" \"Ed Sullivan Show\" - that then \"Bonanza.\" When I sign an autograph now, I always write, God bless, and I put my name. And I got that from Red Skelt"}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 53, "text": "Did you love the songs? Did you love the songs from \"The Wizard Of Oz\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "and everybody else."}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 54, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Are you kidding me? (Singing) Follow the yellow brick road."}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 55, "text": "Oh, Danny Kaye.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Vocalizing, singing) Wherever a wiz (ph) there was. Follow the yellow brick road. You know, I mean, that was - you got to remember, they only showed that, like, once a year. What was it? What was the"}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 56, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Danny Kaye would introduce it. Right. Danny Kaye would introduce - I mean, we couldn't wait. That was huge - huge. And then, of course, \"King Kong.\""}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 57, "text": "\"Million Dollar Movie,\" yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, 'cause \"Million Dollar Movie\" - they would show the same movie..."}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 58, "text": "\"King Kong,\" \"Godzilla,\" \"Godzilla.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Like, 90 times the same week."}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 59, "text": "\"Hunchback Of Notre Dame.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"King Kong,\" \"Godzilla.\""}
{"id": "1110475988", "date": "2022-07-08", "guest": "Denzel Washington", "title": "Denzel Washington: The Fresh Air interview", "question_index": 60, "text": "Great. It's been so much fun to talk with you. Thank you very much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't watch that one. You're asking me. This is what I remember."}
{"id": "1111274698", "date": "2022-07-13", "guest": "Tucker Carlson", "title": "How the American right became aligned with Hungary and its authoritarian leader", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. \"Does Hungary Offer A Glimpse Of Our Authoritarian Future?\" That's the title of a New Yorker article by my guest, Andrew Marantz. He writes, quote, \"American conservatives recently hosted their flagship conference, CPAC, in Hungary, a country that experts call an autocracy. Its leader, Viktor Orban, provides a potential model of what a Trump after Trump might look like,\" unquote. Orban's administration has rewritten parts of the constitution, appointed judges who will do his bidding, created voting rules that favor Orban's party and make it hard for them to lose and has control over most media outlets. What many liberals fear is a leader who, like Trump, would be able to fire up voters through fear, racial dog whistles, Islamophobia, homophobia, transphobia and disinformation but, unlike Trump, would not only know how to weaken civic institutions and shatter norms, but would also have a strategic political plan to maintain power and pass legislation instead of spending so much time watching TV and worrying about his media profile. The next domestic conference organized by CPAC, the Conservative Political Action Conference, will be held next month in Dallas. One of the guest speakers will be Viktor Orban. Andrew Marantz previously joined us in 2019 to talk about his book, \"Antisocial: Online Extremists, Techno-Utopians, And The Hijacking Of The American Conversation.\" It was based on several years of reporting on the far-right's use of social media. We recorded the interview we're about to hear yesterday. Let's start with a clip from Tucker Carlson's Fox News show. He's expressed his admiration of Viktor Orban and Hungary. Last August, Carlson hosted his show from Budapest, Hungary, for one week while he also filmed a documentary about Hungary. Here's how Carlson opened his episode from Hungary.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1111274698", "date": "2022-07-13", "guest": "Tucker Carlson", "title": "How the American right became aligned with Hungary and its authoritarian leader", "question_index": 1, "text": "OK. That was Tucker Carlson broadcasting his Fox News show from Budapest, Hungary. Andrew Marantz, welcome back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Good evening, and welcome to \"Tucker Carlson Tonight.\" Of the nearly 200 different countries on the face of the earth, precisely one of them has an elected leader who publicly identifies as a Western-"}
{"id": "1111274698", "date": "2022-07-13", "guest": "Tucker Carlson", "title": "How the American right became aligned with Hungary and its authoritarian leader", "question_index": 2, "text": "Tucker Carlson says Orban has been vilified as a fascist and a destroyer of democracy. And Carlson says he's been, you know, wrongly vilified. What is Orban's relationship to democracy? He was elected. There's still a parliament. There's still a constitution.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "1111274698", "date": "2022-07-13", "guest": "Tucker Carlson", "title": "How the American right became aligned with Hungary and its authoritarian leader", "question_index": 3, "text": "What's an example of how he's changed the constitution and changed the law?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's kind of amazing listening to that Carlson clip. Obviously, I think he's being disingenuous there when he says that Orban is vilified for saying things like countries nee"}
{"id": "1111274698", "date": "2022-07-13", "guest": "Tucker Carlson", "title": "How the American right became aligned with Hungary and its authoritarian leader", "question_index": 4, "text": "This kind of like the definition of illiberal democracy. It looks like a democracy from the outside. There's voting. There's courts. There's a parliament. But if you look at the details, one party runs it, one man runs the party, and it's pretty authoritarian.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's really interesting and subtle. And I think this is part of why, as you said earlier, a lot of American conservatives look to him as a potential model for a Trump after Trump, because what Orban h"}
{"id": "1111274698", "date": "2022-07-13", "guest": "Tucker Carlson", "title": "How the American right became aligned with Hungary and its authoritarian leader", "question_index": 5, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Andrew Marantz. He's a staff writer for The New Yorker, and his latest article is titled \"Does Hungary Offer A Glimpse Of Our Authoritarian Future?\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. And it doesn't have that immediate, clear, sort of slam-dunk, strongman feel to it, right? It's not like looking at Putin's Russia or, you know, even looking at Saudi Arabia or China, and, yo"}
{"id": "1111274698", "date": "2022-07-13", "guest": "Tucker Carlson", "title": "How the American right became aligned with Hungary and its authoritarian leader", "question_index": 6, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Andrew Marantz, a staff writer for The New Yorker. His latest article is titled \"Does Hungary Offer A Glimpse Of Our Authoritarian Future?\" So there seems to be a growing number of American conservatives, activists on the far right, Republicans who admire Orban, who will admire what he's done in Hungary, and would like to use that as a model. One of those people is Tucker Carlson, who we just heard a clip from. And Tucker Carlson said, as we heard, that Orban thinks families are more important than banks. Does that mean - when he says families are important, does that mean that Orban has passed anti-LGBTQ laws?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. And it doesn't have that immediate, clear, sort of slam-dunk, strongman feel to it, right? It's not like looking at Putin's Russia or, you know, even looking at Saudi Arabia or China, and, yo"}
{"id": "1111274698", "date": "2022-07-13", "guest": "Tucker Carlson", "title": "How the American right became aligned with Hungary and its authoritarian leader", "question_index": 7, "text": "In your article, you mentioned that Hungary passed a law banning sex education involving LGBTQ topics in schools. Nine months later, Florida Governor Ron DeSantis signed the Don't Say Gay bill banning discussion of LGBTQ issues of any sort in K-3 public schools. Coincidence?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", in my view - values are still upheld. And they can just point to that and say, see, it's possible. You know, don't despair if you're a traditionalist, you know? We, too, can have our version of that"}
{"id": "1111274698", "date": "2022-07-13", "guest": "Tucker Carlson", "title": "How the American right became aligned with Hungary and its authoritarian leader", "question_index": 8, "text": "Does Hungary have a word for wokeness? Is there a Hungarian word for wokeness...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Steve Bannon, yes, Milo Yiannopoulos, who I wrote about in my book. So it's a small world when you start getting down to it. And, you know, there are differences in policy. Hungary's abortion policy i"}
{"id": "1111274698", "date": "2022-07-13", "guest": "Tucker Carlson", "title": "How the American right became aligned with Hungary and its authoritarian leader", "question_index": 9, "text": "...That they can use as a buzzword in the same way that Republicans are using it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They'll say it just in English."}
{"id": "1111274698", "date": "2022-07-13", "guest": "Tucker Carlson", "title": "How the American right became aligned with Hungary and its authoritarian leader", "question_index": 10, "text": "So I want to get back again to what Tucker Carlson said. He said Orban believes that countries should have borders. So let's talk about Orban's border policies. What has Orban said about how Muslim immigrants might outnumber Christians and how Hungary would lose its Judeo-Christian identity if they continue to allow in Muslims?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They will often just say woke in English. And in fact, when I was at CPAC Orlando, which happened before CPAC Budapest, there was a delegation from Budapest. And the head of the delegation gave a spee"}
{"id": "1111274698", "date": "2022-07-13", "guest": "Tucker Carlson", "title": "How the American right became aligned with Hungary and its authoritarian leader", "question_index": 11, "text": "And when you were in Hungary, trying and kind of failing to get into the CPAC conference there - they wouldn't let you in - Orban gave a speech describing Hungary as the last Christian conservative bastion of the world. And he said if other Western countries continue to implement policies like lax border control, the result would be, quote, \"the great European population replacement program, which seeks to replace the missing European children with migrants, with adults arriving from other civilizations.\" That's replacement theory. That's, like, basically, you know, a white nationalist replacement theory that also resonates in Europe. I mean, it's kind of, like, Nazi talk.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. So he came to this as his political strategy when he returned to office. So he was first in office 1998 to 2002. And back then, he really fashioned himself as a sort of centrist liberal democrat."}
{"id": "1111274698", "date": "2022-07-13", "guest": "Tucker Carlson", "title": "How the American right became aligned with Hungary and its authoritarian leader", "question_index": 12, "text": "So Viktor Orban, the increasingly authoritarian prime minister of Hungary, talks about Hungary's Judeo-Christian heritage and why it's important to, like, keep out people who don't fit with that heritage so that true Hungarians aren't replaced by people of other civilizations. When he says Judeo-Christian heritage, most of the Jews in Hungary fled or were exterminated during the Holocaust. I mean, what's really left of the Jewish population and Jewish identity in Hungary?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, that is raw, uncut replacement theory. And that's the kind of thing that, when I was reporting my book, would have been considered a shockingly fringe viewpoint. And now, as we've watched "}
{"id": "1111274698", "date": "2022-07-13", "guest": "Tucker Carlson", "title": "How the American right became aligned with Hungary and its authoritarian leader", "question_index": 13, "text": "Let's take another break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Andrew Marantz. He's a staff writer for The New Yorker, and his latest article is titled \"Does Hungary Offer A Glimpse Of Our Authoritarian Future?\" We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's kind of hard to say because of the way that assimilation and forced assimilation happened. So no one really knows, actually. But there are not as many Jews left as there clearly were before"}
{"id": "1111274698", "date": "2022-07-13", "guest": "Tucker Carlson", "title": "How the American right became aligned with Hungary and its authoritarian leader", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I am Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with New Yorker staff writer Andrew Marantz about his latest article titled \"Does Hungary Offer A Glimpse Of Our Authoritarian Future?\" He writes, American conservatives recently hosted their flagship conference, CPAC, in Hungary, a country that experts call an autocracy. Its leader, Viktor Orban, provides a potential model of what a Trump after Trump might look like. Orban has used George Soros as a major target, and Soros is a Hungarian-born, Jewish financier and philanthropist. Soros is also a target of the right in the U.S. How did Soros become one of Orban's chief targets? I should mention, Soros does fund a lot of, like, liberal causes and humanitarian causes as a philanthropist.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's kind of hard to say because of the way that assimilation and forced assimilation happened. So no one really knows, actually. But there are not as many Jews left as there clearly were before"}
{"id": "1111274698", "date": "2022-07-13", "guest": "Tucker Carlson", "title": "How the American right became aligned with Hungary and its authoritarian leader", "question_index": 15, "text": "Yeah, Finkelstein said, you don't attack the Nazis. You attack Adolf Hitler.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. So it is true that George Soros is a rich, international elite who funds a lot of left-leaning causes. That part of it is definitely true. The part that has been sort of spun up and exagge"}
{"id": "1111274698", "date": "2022-07-13", "guest": "Tucker Carlson", "title": "How the American right became aligned with Hungary and its authoritarian leader", "question_index": 16, "text": "If Trump does not run for office or if he does not win a Republican primary, where we stand now is that the likely Republican candidate for president in 2024 would be Ron DeSantis, the governor of Florida, who is pretty far to the right. Is there any connection that you can see between DeSantis and Orban?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. Exactly. That's how you get it done. So - and in the Hungarian context, it really wasn't clear who the hate figure was going to be, right? It wasn't obvious. And it took a little bit of brain"}
{"id": "1111274698", "date": "2022-07-13", "guest": "Tucker Carlson", "title": "How the American right became aligned with Hungary and its authoritarian leader", "question_index": 17, "text": "Let's go back a bit. How did Hungary first become something of a model for the right in America?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, definitely, yeah. I mean, as we've discussed, the DeSantis administration in Florida has said that they patterned some of their legal strategies, some of their lawmaking, on Hungarian laws. And mo"}
{"id": "1111274698", "date": "2022-07-13", "guest": "Tucker Carlson", "title": "How the American right became aligned with Hungary and its authoritarian leader", "question_index": 18, "text": "That sounds very familiar, doesn't it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So there is this concept of liberal democracy, which, I think, you know, is worth defining a little bit. And, you know, you mentioned the title of the piece is \"Does Hungary Offer A Glimpse Of Our Aut"}
{"id": "1111274698", "date": "2022-07-13", "guest": "Tucker Carlson", "title": "How the American right became aligned with Hungary and its authoritarian leader", "question_index": 19, "text": "What's in it for Orban, his party in Hungary, to have Americans like Tucker Carlson advocating for them and dittoing their views and trying to follow their playbook?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I was wondering if that would ring a bell. So this is the kind of thing where, often, we talk in terms of future, hypothetical speculation. And that's obviously mostly the mode in which I've wri"}
{"id": "1111274698", "date": "2022-07-13", "guest": "Tucker Carlson", "title": "How the American right became aligned with Hungary and its authoritarian leader", "question_index": 20, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Andrew Marantz. He's a staff writer for The New Yorker. And his latest article is titled \"Does Hungary Offer A Glimpse Of Our Authoritarian Future?\" That's the title online. It has a different title in the actual print hard copy. We'll be right back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I think for someone like Orban, it's all upside, right? I think, one thing you hear from his chroniclers and biographers and stuff is that he has these really outsized ambitions. And he feels that"}
{"id": "1111274698", "date": "2022-07-13", "guest": "Tucker Carlson", "title": "How the American right became aligned with Hungary and its authoritarian leader", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Andrew Marantz. He's a staff writer for The New Yorker. His latest article is titled \"Does Hungary Offer A Glimpse Of Our Authoritarian Future?\" I want to get back to Tucker Carlson because he has such a popular program. And he's so influential in America. And he's such an advocate of Hungary and the Orban administration. So I want to play another clip from Carlson's Fox News show as an example of how he really thinks Hungary is going in a much better direction than the United States is. And it's more of a model of what a country should be. So here's Tucker Carlson.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I think for someone like Orban, it's all upside, right? I think, one thing you hear from his chroniclers and biographers and stuff is that he has these really outsized ambitions. And he feels that"}
{"id": "1111274698", "date": "2022-07-13", "guest": "Tucker Carlson", "title": "How the American right became aligned with Hungary and its authoritarian leader", "question_index": 22, "text": "OK. That was Tucker Carlson on his Fox News show. Andrew Marantz, what's your interpretation, reading between the lines and just reading the lines, of what we just heard Tucker Carlson say?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Even if you understand that the American news media lie, it is always bewildering to see the extent of their dishonesty. Nothing prepares you for it. We've read many times how repressive Hungary is. F"}
{"id": "1111274698", "date": "2022-07-13", "guest": "Tucker Carlson", "title": "How the American right became aligned with Hungary and its authoritarian leader", "question_index": 23, "text": "Yeah, just one thing I want to say about what Carlson said. He said, like, if you live in a big American city and loudly and publicly attack Biden policies on COVID, immigration, transgender athletes, you'd be attacked by Biden's Silicon Valley allies. And you'd have to hire bodyguards. In my experience, talking to a lot of people on our show and reading the newspapers and watching other media, a lot of the people who have to hire bodyguards have to do so because they've spoken out in ways that the right doesn't like, that Trump, when he was president, would speak about these individuals. And basically, Trump - you know, a lot of extremist Trump supporters would go after those individuals who disagreed with Trump. And they would have their lives threatened. They'd have their families' lives threatened. They'd sometimes have to move. So it's really, like, distorting the reality of who has to have bodyguards in the U.S.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm surprised that we heard him say it at all because, you know, he said that critics of Biden's policies are routinely silenced. And yet, he is on TV every night criticizing Biden's policies, s"}
{"id": "1111274698", "date": "2022-07-13", "guest": "Tucker Carlson", "title": "How the American right became aligned with Hungary and its authoritarian leader", "question_index": 24, "text": "And then, of course, Tucker Carlson is very influential when he praises Orban. I'm sure a lot of his listeners - viewers, I guess I should say, think, well, Orban must be great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And not to mention the threats to free speech that are, you know, classic First Amendment threats, where it's actually the government imposing speech restrictions. You're much more likely to fin"}
{"id": "1111274698", "date": "2022-07-13", "guest": "Tucker Carlson", "title": "How the American right became aligned with Hungary and its authoritarian leader", "question_index": 25, "text": "Do you really think he might run?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. I think Tucker Carlson is the most influential person on the right these days, I think, bar none. And I think, you know, as you were saying, where things stand now, it looks like DeSantis mi"}
{"id": "1111274698", "date": "2022-07-13", "guest": "Tucker Carlson", "title": "How the American right became aligned with Hungary and its authoritarian leader", "question_index": 26, "text": "Let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Andrew Marantz, a staff writer for The New Yorker. His latest article is titled \"Does Hungary Offer A Glimpse Of Our Authoritarian Future?\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. I think he - I mean, he denies it, of course. But I think he's a more plausible candidate, in many ways, than DeSantis. I just think he has more media chops. I think he's a more talented rhe"}
{"id": "1111274698", "date": "2022-07-13", "guest": "Tucker Carlson", "title": "How the American right became aligned with Hungary and its authoritarian leader", "question_index": 27, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Andrew Marantz, a staff writer for The New Yorker. His latest article is titled \"Does Hungary Offer A Glimpse Of Our Authoritarian Future?\" You write at the end of your piece in The New Yorker that what you're most worried about isn't Trump himself but a party that increasingly resembles Viktor Orban's party. Can you elaborate on that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. I think he - I mean, he denies it, of course. But I think he's a more plausible candidate, in many ways, than DeSantis. I just think he has more media chops. I think he's a more talented rhe"}
{"id": "1111274698", "date": "2022-07-13", "guest": "Tucker Carlson", "title": "How the American right became aligned with Hungary and its authoritarian leader", "question_index": 28, "text": "Could you talk a little bit about the challenges you think you face as a journalist who always tries to stay out of the political game and not take sides but, at the same time, is seeing signs that America is moving toward authoritarianism in a manner similar to how Hungary did it and that is alarming to you? So I know this is a problem a lot of journalists are facing, seeing things that they think are very disturbing and trying to figure out how to write about it while maintaining the kind of impartiality that they want to maintain as a journalist.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "way of doing things, but the party that has enabled him and has, in many ways, outpaced him now is really, to me, the more worrisome thing."}
{"id": "1111274698", "date": "2022-07-13", "guest": "Tucker Carlson", "title": "How the American right became aligned with Hungary and its authoritarian leader", "question_index": 29, "text": "Andrew Marantz, thank you so much for talking with us and for writing the article. It's really fascinating.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "show up with weapons or something - I mean, you know, at that point, you kind of have to say, there's a team that's really kind of going off the rails here. And, you know, then it raises all sorts of "}
{"id": "1111274698", "date": "2022-07-13", "guest": "Tucker Carlson", "title": "How the American right became aligned with Hungary and its authoritarian leader", "question_index": 30, "text": "Andrew Marantz is a staff writer for The New Yorker. His latest article is titled \"Does Hungary Offer A Glimpse Of Our Authoritarian Future?\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, Chrysta Bilton will talk about growing up the daughter of a lesbian mother who asked a man she'd just met to be her sperm donor and promise to never be a donor for anyone else. This was in the early '80s when sperm banks were relatively new. But after fathering Bilton, he made a living for years as a donor. Bilton has met many of her half-siblings. She's written a new memoir called \"Normal Family.\" I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. This was great."}
{"id": "1111274698", "date": "2022-07-13", "guest": "Tucker Carlson", "title": "How the American right became aligned with Hungary and its authoritarian leader", "question_index": 31, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley, Susan Nyakundi and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. This was great."}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 0, "text": "I'm always interested in hearing how people discover music that isn't the music being played or listened to by their generation. How did you discover early jazz and blues?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In the mid-'80s, Geoff Muldaur began a long sabbatical from performing, reemerging in 1999. In 2009, he spoke with Terry Gross and brought his guitar."}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 1, "text": "Well, you've been generous enough to bring your guitar with you. And I'd like you to play one of the first early jazz or blues songs that you fell in love with that made you really want to seek out more music from that period.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I'm a kid of the '50s. And actually, it started a little earlier than that for me because my brother had this record collection of 78s and LPs of jazz people. So I used to spend all my"}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 2, "text": "Well, let's back up a second. He was - what was he doing in Philadelphia's? Wasn't he working at a hotel or something?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I couldn't help but fall in love with Lonnie Johnson. I mean, he was on some of those jazz records with Louis Armstrong, Duke Ellington. And then my friend Joe Boyd and his brother Warwick and m"}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 3, "text": "Oh, that's great. So when you were listening to that as a kid, did you know Jelly Roll...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was. I thought he was washing dishes. Other people said he might have been a cook or something. But he came out of that door with a suit on and his big guitar case, and we took him up to the home o"}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 4, "text": "...What was intended by the word Jelly Roll?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 5, "text": "Right", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a good question because I was saying things around the house I was getting in trouble for, and I didn't know - I hit this stuff so young..."}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a good question because I was saying things around the house I was getting in trouble for, and I didn't know - I hit this stuff so young..."}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 7, "text": "You did an album in about 2003 of songs that Bix Beiderbecke played on or that were from his period. So these are songs from the late '20s and '30s. And in the liner notes to this, you write, in my house, in my father's world of rah-rah Ivy League grads, Bix lore was common fare. Everyone seemed to have a Bix story, about meeting him, drinking with him. And later, you write that the trumpeter Muggsy Spanier came to your house and spent time in your brother's room listening to music. How did your family know these people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And especially the Bessie Smith stuff. So, yeah, I knew by then. And that's one of the tunes we were asking for at that party. And, you know, double entendre, you know, when you're young..."}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 8, "text": "Were you there? You were there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my brother was out there doing reconnaissance. He was 10 years older than I was. So when he was 18, going into 52nd Street and down to the Village, I was 8. So when he was hunting up these peopl"}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 9, "text": "Oh, that's almost avant garde.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I was sitting there listening to him. I remember him talking about kicking his mute around the room to get individual types of bumps in it so his sound would be different than anybody else's."}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 10, "text": "Your Bix Beiderbecke record is so much fun. I think we should hear a track from it. And this is you singing lead on \"Take Your Tomorrow (And Give Me Today).\" And do you want to say anything about why you chose to put this on the CD and how you arranged it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there you go. That's typical of avant garde. You know, keep going back with it. But - and he also talked about Bix, and I remember that, just sort of shaking his head, you know, sadly."}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 11, "text": "Of the Beiderbecke piano pieces.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the original reason for the CD was to do the chamber arrangements of the piano pieces. So they're all on there."}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 12, "text": "OK. So this is Geoff Muldaur from his album from about 2003 that's a tribute to Bix Beiderbecke.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes. And, you know, we wanted to spice it up with some of the old tunes, and we decided to do them in ways that have never been done. In other words, if a male sang the original, then a female co"}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 13, "text": "GEOFF MULDAUR", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes. And, you know, we wanted to spice it up with some of the old tunes, and we decided to do them in ways that have never been done. In other words, if a male sang the original, then a female co"}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 14, "text": "That's Geoff Muldaur from his album \"Private Astronomy: A Vision Of The Music Of Bix Beiderbecke.\" That's really so much fun to listen to. One of my favorite quotes about you comes from Loudon Wainwright, who said, Geoff Muldaur was and is one of my musical heroes. When I listen to him sing and play, I can hear the coal mine, the cotton field - last but certainly foremost, the boy's boarding school", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Why should I wait for happiness? I've grown impatient more or less. I cannot wait somehow. Show me a bluebird now. Take your tomorrow, and give me today. For your tomorrow is too far away. A"}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 15, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Why should I wait for happiness? I've grown impatient more or less. I cannot wait somehow. Show me a bluebird now. Take your tomorrow, and give me today. For your tomorrow is too far away. A"}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 16, "text": "Isn't he? So how did you - when you were listening to blues, you know, when you were young, did you feel a connection to the world of the blues singers? Or did you feel like you lived in this very distant world, distant in time and place and class?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He is such a clever guy."}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 17, "text": "Why not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's - there's a good question. You know, I didn't feel comfortable in the world that I knew around me."}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 18, "text": "You wrote a song about looking for Blind Lemon Jefferson's grave. Blind Lemon Jefferson was one of the great blues performers. So the song is about wanting to find his grave so you could make sure it was clean. What - but you actually did this. The song is based on an actual trip that you made. What inspired you to do it?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview with musician, composer, arranger and singer Geoff Muldaur. He has a new CD box set called \"His Last Letter\" tracing his musical influences. When"}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Probably alcohol."}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 20, "text": "Uh-huh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I mean, I was up all night in New Orleans as usual. I was living down there when I was 18..."}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 21, "text": "That's one of his songs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And hanging out at these crazy places with these crazy people. You know, it was 1961, and things were swinging. And so we were down over at, you know, the Cafe du Monde, little south of there, havi"}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I go - yeah, yeah. And I goaded these four guys that were with me into cruising around the streets to look for brooms. And we found them. And by the time the sun was up in the - you know, in the m"}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 23, "text": "And did you sweep the grave?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...For anybody. So I'm here to tell the tale. The first trip ended up in a turnaround, which is - which I wrote about in the song, spending the night in jail in Lafayette. But I got there eventually."}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 24, "text": "Who moved his grave?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course. They had moved it by the time I got there. But it is a beautiful, little graveyard. You know, we found one big graveyard, and we're standing in - it was all these people with sort of coiffe"}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 25, "text": "Good.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The - some blues society."}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 26, "text": "Well, would you perform some of your song about Blind Lemon Jefferson, about looking for the grave?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So as you can tell from this, it took a few years before I got back there when I got back there."}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 27, "text": "Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Why, certainly."}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 28, "text": "It's a nice song. It's called \"Got To Find Blind Lemon Jefferson - Part One.\" And it's on Jeff Muldaur's album \"The Secret Handshake.\" And he's performing for us today in the studio. So how did you get put in prison, which we hear about a little later in the song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let's see if I can remember this one. (Singing, playing guitar) With my broom in my hand, headed out from Jackson Square. With my broom in my hand, headed out from Jackson Square. I had to get to east"}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 29, "text": "Jail, right. Yeah, I'm sorry. Yes. And that happened how?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no, no, no, just jail, just for the night."}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 30, "text": "So you really did ask there for, like, you know, a room for a night", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'll tell you how it happened. I was so cold. It was in the high 20s. And I had moccasins on and a martin guitar with me. And I went into a little cop shop on the outside of town. And I asked th"}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 31, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'll tell you how it happened. I was so cold. It was in the high 20s. And I had moccasins on and a martin guitar with me. And I went into a little cop shop on the outside of town. And I asked th"}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 32, "text": "Yeah, just do those two lines for us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. So that's why I, even in the lyric, write it that way. Somebody said, don't write it that way. I said, that's what happened. I asked to get in jail."}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 33, "text": "So you met Jim Kweskin and with him formed the Jim Kweskin Jug Band, and obviously you found somebody in him who was a musical kindred spirit. I mean, he's even on the new CD, on the \"Texas Sheiks\" CD...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross. Let's get back to Terry's interview with Geoff Muldaur. He's had a lifelong passion for music of the '20s and '30s. His own recordings, as w"}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 34, "text": "...Performing \"Blues In The Bottle,\" which is one of the songs he was famous for with the Jug Band. Why a jug band with literally a jug?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He sure is."}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 35, "text": "Would you like to play a song that you did in the jug band period?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think his friend who called himself Bruno Wolf thought about the jug. And, you know, we got Fritz Richmond to pick up the jug and try it out. And he was so quick to make it fun that it sort of"}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 36, "text": "That's Geoff Muldaur performing in the studio. It must have been amazing performing with the Jug Band in the '60s at a time when probably, like, a lot of the people in the audience were really high and probably some of the people on stage were, too. There was this sense of kind of community at that time, I think it's fair to say, between performers and audiences that was based in part on liking this music that other people didn't like or didn't know about, and also about sharing in this alternative culture. So can you talk a little bit what it was like for you being a performer in that period?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Let me see here. This was one of the first things I ever did with the Jug Band, with Jim Kweskin Jug Band. It's called \"Wild About My Lovin'.\" (Playing guitar, singing) Listen here, people, "}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 37, "text": "Oh, really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, there were two - there were different sets of circumstances. The one you just mentioned was the most common. But we became sort of a curiosity piece for television. So we were on a lot"}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 38, "text": "Well, why don't we hear what the band actually sounded like together? Is there a track that you'd particularly like to hear?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. And so we were sort of a curiosity, and we sure weren't playing for our compadres in those audiences. And it was really interesting. They loved those good old chunky, you know, funky things."}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 39, "text": "Oh, that's perfect. OK, let's hear that. And that's the opening track from - I think the album's just called Jug Band Music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I - gee, you know, Jimmy and I have been playing recently, and \"Blues My Naughty Sweetie\" might be a good one."}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 40, "text": "So let's hear this. This is Geoff Muldaur with the Jim Kweskin Jug Band.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You got it."}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 41, "text": "That's the Jim Kweskin Jug Band with my guest, Geoff Muldaur. And Geoff Muldaur is a singer, guitarist and arranger. How did the band split up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) There are blues that you get from loneliness and there are blues that you get from pain. And there are blues when you are lonely for your one and only, the blues you can never explain. And t"}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 42, "text": "Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Jim had been joining a sort of a communal situation on Fort Hill in Boston, and they were buying up these little houses and fixing them up. And the communal - the community he was living in star"}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 43, "text": "Yeah, you and Maria Muldaur were married and performed together and did a couple albums together. Do you want to do a song from that era of your life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because I couldn't - I knew very quickly that I had to learn the craft of music. In the jug band, everything was done, you know, yakking back and forth across the room laboriously for months on end, c"}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 44, "text": "Very nice", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I'd love to. This came out of the jug band, but it fit really nice with Amos Garrett and his beautiful electric guitar playing. This is called \"Gee Baby, Ain't I Good To You.\" (Singing, playing "}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 45, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I'd love to. This came out of the jug band, but it fit really nice with Amos Garrett and his beautiful electric guitar playing. This is called \"Gee Baby, Ain't I Good To You.\" (Singing, playing "}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 46, "text": "Now, you left music for a few years. How long a hiatus was it?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2009 interview with musician, composer, arranger and singer Geoff Muldaur, who brought his guitar along. He has a new double CD called \"His Last Letter\" tr"}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 47, "text": "Whoa,", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was about 17 years."}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 48, "text": "that's really long. How come? I mean, you're so passionate about it and so good at it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was about 17 years."}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 49, "text": "Well, if you wouldn't mind, I'd like for you to perform some of the \"Wild Ox Moan.\" Maybe you can tell us about it before we hear it. The reason why I want you to do this - you go into this kind of, like, blues falsetto in it, which is almost like a blues yodel.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he dragged me over to Italy that fall, and that's when I got the bug again. I said, you know what? I'm not knocking these northern Italians silly, but I love this. And I started practicing. And th"}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 50, "text": "Nice", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do. But it's something that the writer of this tune - if she did write it because it's so different I almost can't believe anybody wrote it. Her name was Vera Hall, and she was a schoolteacher from "}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 51, "text": ". Really good. Thank you so much for doing that. That's \"Wild Ox Moan.\" My guest is guitarist and singer and arranger Geoff Muldaur. So do you feel that age and experience is, like, changing your taste at all in music - like, not necessarily what you want to listen to, but what you want to perform or a range?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do. But it's something that the writer of this tune - if she did write it because it's so different I almost can't believe anybody wrote it. Her name was Vera Hall, and she was a schoolteacher from "}
{"id": "1111693114", "date": "2022-07-15", "guest": "Geoff Muldaur", "title": "Singer-songwriter Geoff Muldaur performs jazz and blues from the '20s and '30s", "question_index": 52, "text": "Geoff Muldaur, thanks so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is getting that way. In other words, I do have plans to move away from the vocal because I'm a second tenor, and you can't sing like this forever. Although it just - I'm singing in the same keys I "}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I am Terry Gross. The show that won this year's Tony Awards for best musical and best book for a musical was written and composed by my guest, Michael R. Jackson. One of the cast members became the first trans person to be nominated for a Tony. The show, called \"A Strange Loop,\" also won a Pulitzer Prize for drama. Jackson started writing it when he was working as an usher at the Broadway show \"The Lion King.\" He describes his show as a musical about a young, Black, gay musical theater writer named Usher who works as an usher at a Broadway show. In the play, Usher is writing a musical about a young, Black, gay musical theater writer named Usher, who works as an usher at a Broadway show and is writing a musical about a young, Black, gay musical theater writer named Usher. That is one of the strange loops that the title refers to. \"A Strange Loop\" is a comedy and drama about self-loathing, feeling stuck and wanting to change, and about Usher's churchgoing parents, who fear his sexuality will condemn him to eternally burn in hell. Usher's inner feelings are personified by characters called his daily self-loathing, his supervisor of sexual ambivalence, his inner white girl and others. Jackson says the show isn't autobiographical, but there are definitely parallels to his own life. Let's start with the opening song called \"Intermission Song.\" Usher is played by Jaquel Spivey, who was also nominated for a Tony.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 1, "text": "Michael R. Jackson, welcome to FRESH AIR. Congratulations on the Tonys and the Pulitzer. As I mentioned in the introduction, there are performers who personify Usher's inner voices - his daily self-loathing, the supervisor of his sexual ambivalence, his financial advisor and his inner white girl. So most of us are familiar with that inner voice of daily self-loathing although it comes in different flavors. What was your flavor?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As characters, singing) Blackness, queerness fighting back to fill this cis-het, all-white space with a portrait of a portrait of a portrait of a Black, queer face and a choir full of Black, queer vo"}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 2, "text": "Well, in terms of questioning whether people perceived you as being Black enough, one of Usher's inner voices is his inner white girl. Who is she?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My flavor was always thinking that I wasn't attractive enough, that I, you know, was awkward, that I didn't fit into certain groups of people. You know, at different periods of my life, I think I was "}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 3, "text": "I think part of what Usher admires about them is their ability to express vulnerability, which he feels that he can't in his art or in his life. And I'm wondering if you felt that way, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The inner white girl is a kind of abstract concept that mostly refers to the singer-songwriter women that Usher really admires artistically whose work really lives in a really free space where they ge"}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 4, "text": "I want to ask you about another one of Usher's inner voices. And this is the inner voice that's checking in to see if he's found his unapologetic Blackness yet because his numbers are in the toilet with the Black excellence crowd and he's close to cancellation. What's that about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I would definitely say, you know, growing up, there was a lot of music that was being played that did not match my inner life. And I didn't even really realize at that point until it was put in "}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 5, "text": "Well, advice Usher is given includes, you need to make your show about police violence, slavery and intersectionality 'cause that could be really lucrative. Did you feel that way yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's, you know, this sort of story that has to do with Usher not feeling like he is in the in-group of Blackness and that he's not sort of hitting his marks as a respectable Black person who fits in"}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 6, "text": "That's an interesting perception. And where do you think you fit in on that scale, if at all?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, all - what I will say to that - I'm always a little coy about this - is, like, just look around. Like, what stories do you see often getting produced? They are those stories. And like, the - a"}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 7, "text": "You just reject that scale. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 8, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. Let me reintroduce you. My guest is Michael R. Jackson, and his musical, \"A Strange Loop,\" won this year's Tony Awards for best musical and best book for a musical. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I'm trying to, like - the God I worship is nuance and complexity and boundary-pushing and risk-taking and truthfulness. Like, I really am interested in, like, is it real? Do, like - what are the t"}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Michael R. Jackson. His musical, \"A Strange Loop,\" won this year's Tonys for best musical and best book for a musical. It also won a Pulitzer Prize for drama. He wrote the book as well as the music and lyrics. Jackson describes \"A Strange Loop\" as a musical about a young, Black, gay musical theater writer named Usher, who works as an usher at a Broadway show. And in the play, Usher is writing a musical about a young, Black, gay musical theater writer named Usher, who works at a Broadway show and is writing a musical about a young, Black, gay musical theater writer named Usher. Is there, like, anything specific you can point to for people who haven't seen the show in \"A Strange Loop\" that you think people think but are unwilling to say?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I'm trying to, like - the God I worship is nuance and complexity and boundary-pushing and risk-taking and truthfulness. Like, I really am interested in, like, is it real? Do, like - what are the t"}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, let's hear the song that you just referred to, which is called \"Tyler Perry Writes Real Life.\" So it starts with the voice of Usher's agent.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I think the - for example, the sort of argument that is posed about what Black artistic work should be and using the Tyler Perry work as a sort of comparison is one thing. Like, in - there's"}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 11, "text": "So that was the song \"Tyler Perry Writes Real Life,\" from the Broadway cast recording of \"A Strange Loop,\" which was written by my guest, Michael R. Jackson, who also wrote the music and lyrics for the show. So that song's very, you know, humorously critical of Tyler Perry's work with a formula of a sassy matriarch, a lonely spinster who loves God and a few quotes from \"The Color Purple.\" Did you grow up with his work? Did your parents love his work? Like, what's your connection - what's your personal connection to Tyler Perry movies and-or shows?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Usher, singing) It's true. I'm still emerging, looking to make my start. But not so hungry that I'd ride the chitlin' circuit. I'm into entertainment that's undercover art. My mission is to figure"}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 12, "text": "So deeper into that song, in a part that we didn't hear, several characters come out, identifying themselves as Harriet Tubman, Jimmy Baldwin, Whitney, Marcus Garvey, Zora Neale Hurston and \"12 Years A Slave.\" And they all accuse Usher of being a race traitor or something worse. Can you talk about coming up with that idea?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...That I was chasing. And then especially when I saw - and this is well into me working on drafts of \"A Strange Loop\" - when I saw the 2013 film \"Temptation: Confessions Of A Marriage Counselor,\" whe"}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I just think I wanted to do something that was, like, a hoot. And the idea that the ancestors would come out of their grave to defend..."}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 14, "text": "I was kind of pleased to read, though, that he got in touch with you and, you know, kind of congratulated you on the play and that you're on decent terms. Like, it's nice to know you can be...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Tyler Perry felt like just, like, a way of actually having an argument that wasn't one-dimensional about what Usher's issues with Tyler Perry's work was. I wanted them to defend Tyler Perry's work "}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 15, "text": "...Really critical of somebody else's work and still appreciate each other on some level.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 16, "text": "My guest is Michael R. Jackson. He wrote the book and the songs for the Broadway musical \"A Strange Loop,\" which won this year's Tonys for Best Musical and Best Book for a Musical. The cast recording has been released. We'll hear more music from the show and talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I don't know - I don't totally know how to characterize what our relationship is at this point. We have not actually met. But we've had a couple of conversations, once on the phone and then we t"}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Michael R. Jackson. His musical \"A Strange Loop\" won this year's Tonys for best musical and best book for a musical. It also won a Pulitzer Prize for drama. Jackson describes it as a musical about a young, Black, gay musical theater writer named Usher who works as an usher at a Broadway show. In the play, Usher is writing a musical about a young, Black, gay musical theater writer named Usher who works as an usher at a Broadway show and is writing a musical about a young, Black, gay musical theater writer named Usher. Jackson was working as an usher at the Broadway show \"The Lion King\" when he started writing \"A Strange Loop.\" Let's talk about church in your life 'cause church plays a significant role in \"A Strange Loop.\" In \"A Strange Loop,\" Usher's parents are churchgoing people, and they really think that his sexuality is going to condemn him to hell. And they think, as an act of love, they should prevent him from being homosexual to save him. And, of course, that's - that help he rejects. So let's talk about church in your life. I know your mother was the recording secretary?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Usher, singing) I am a Disney usher. I'm barely scraping by. My discontentment comes in many shapes and sizes. When I wake up each morning, I tell myself to try. I tell myself that I will make no "}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 18, "text": "The church secretary, and your father was a trustee. And you were in the choir, and I think you played piano at the church, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was the church secretary."}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 19, "text": "Is there, like, a especially favorite or meaningful hymn or gospel song that you used to do in church?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I sang in, like, the children's choir as a little, little kid. But I primarily played for the children's choir as I got older, and I also played for the older ladies choir for a period of time."}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 20, "text": "So I know you have a good voice 'cause I've heard you sing on the internet, and I'm wondering if you could sing a few bars for us if you're comfortable.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It wasn't a song that I played, but it was a song that was sung at church that I really loved called \"Till I Can Journey On\" - I think was the name of it. And I always loved hearing it sung."}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 21, "text": "Oh, thank you for singing that. I could see why it was meaningful to you. So you were in this position at church where, you know, you had a prominent position, you know, playing for the choirs, singing in the choir as a child, but also having to hide your sexuality because that would have been very disapproved of in church. Did the preacher preach about the dangers of homosexuality? Did you have to sit through sermons like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. It went... (Singing) You gave me the strength to make it through another day. All the strength I had from yesterday was all gone. All the pressures from yesterday took all of my strength away. Y"}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 22, "text": "I want to play another song from \"A Strange Loop,\" and this is called \"Periodically.\" And it's a voicemail that Usher's mother leaves to wish him a happy birthday 'cause it's his 26th birthday, which is falling on the 26th day of the month, which makes it seem extra special. But the song turns into a reminder - after, you know, the mother talking about how much she loves Usher, she kind of segues into talking about how homosexuality isn't right with God or with hell, and that hell is real. So let's hear an excerpt of \"Periodically.\" And \"Periodically\" refers to - that periodically, the mother likes to remind him that hell is real and homosexuality is, like, a filthy, unholy desire.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was - frequently, what would happen is the sermon could be about, like, anything. It would start in, like, one scripture. There would be a topic. And somehow it would, like, meander around to co"}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 23, "text": "So that was the song \"Periodically\" from the Broadway cast recording of \"A Strange Loop,\" which was written by my guest, Michael R. Jackson. Both the book and the songs were written by him. How were you introduced to Broadway shows? You grew up in Detroit, far away from Broadway. I don't know how many shows you got to see when you were coming of age.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Thought 4 and Usher, singing) 'Cause I love you, and I don't want your soul to be wasted. It hurts me so bad sometimes I can taste it. Hell is real. Sinners burning, sinners churning in rivers of "}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 24, "text": "Oh, that was great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was introduced to Broadway probably really when I came to college at NYU, but I was aware of a lot of Broadway shows before that, but I didn't grow up watching the Tonys or anything like that. But I"}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 25, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I was blown away by it."}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 26, "text": "Right. So I know that you've often felt like you were standing outside of what was happening as - well, Usher feels that way, anyways - as, like, an outsider in any circle. When you started going to theater school at NYU Tisch School of the Arts - I mean, theater schools are filled with gay people. Did you feel like you'd found a home in that respect, both artistically and personally?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like, to this day, it is, like, one of my favorite scores, and I just thought it was, like, a devastatingly beautiful show. And I loved the songs. And I think it planted a seed in me, even though I wa"}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 27, "text": "Did you have to be secret about it in Detroit because your parents were church people, or were there other reasons, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes and no because, remember; I started undergrad in 1999. And so while, yes, there was, you know, gay representation and that sort of thing, A, that gay representation was predominantly white and, B,"}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 28, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. Let me reintroduce you. My guest is Michael R. Jackson, and his musical, \"A Strange Loop,\" won this year's Tony Awards for best musical and best book for a musical. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, it was - just the whole, like, community. I mean, my parents knew I was gay by the time I got to college because I had sort of come out to them. But, like, it wasn't something that I was"}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Michael R. Jackson. His musical, \"A Strange Loop,\" won this year's Tonys for best musical and best book for a musical. It also won a Pulitzer Prize for drama. He wrote the book, as well as the music and lyrics. Jackson describes \"A Strange Loop\" as a musical about a young, Black, gay musical theater writer named Usher, who works as an usher at a Broadway show. And in the play, Usher is writing a musical about a young, Black, gay musical theater writer named Usher, who works at a Broadway show and is writing a musical about a young, Black, gay musical theater writer named Usher. You came out to your parents when you were 17. About what year was that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, it was - just the whole, like, community. I mean, my parents knew I was gay by the time I got to college because I had sort of come out to them. But, like, it wasn't something that I was"}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 30, "text": "What was their first reaction?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was 1998."}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 31, "text": "How upsetting was that for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". They were shocked. They were scared. They were upset. They had, like, a really big reaction."}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 32, "text": "In the show, Usher's father asks Usher - after the father finds out that Usher is gay, he says, son, are you attracted to me? And Usher says in response, I'm too Black, fat, ugly and effeminate to be the kind of man you'd be attracted to if you were attracted to men. Did your father actually ask you that? And if so, what did you say in response?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was very upsetting ultimately. But in the moment, I was so consumed by all of their emotions that I couldn't even focus on what I felt or thought. And so I just sort of was sitting inside of this s"}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 33, "text": "What did you say? What - how did you react?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So my father did ask me if I was attracted to him, but he meant that in a kind of rhetorical - that was, like, a rhetorical move because his understanding of, like, homosexuality, which is that - I th"}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 34, "text": "Were there consequences in your family after you came out? Did you get thrown out of the house?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I reacted with very little. Like, there was - like, that moment in my life, there was so little I could say. No one really was listening to me. And so I was grappling to find the words, to try to just"}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 35, "text": "Was it difficult to communicate after that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 36, "text": "Have your parents changed their mind about you being gay and about homosexuality in general?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "they could have expressed it in. But I never really felt like - I don't think I ever really thought I was going to get thrown out of the house or anything like that 'cause I had seen that happen with "}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 37, "text": "What's your parents' reactions to the show and to how Usher's parents are portrayed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I don't - I could not tell you what my parents think about homosexuality. Like, I don't think that they have, like, one continuum of thought about that. But what I can tell you is that they are ver"}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 38, "text": "So I want to get to another theme in \"A Strange Loop,\" which is that the main character, Usher, thinks of himself as fat and therefore unlovable and unable to have, you know, a loving relationship or, you know, even any kind of sexual relationship. And I'm wondering if that - those feelings come from your life at all.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And I think that their reactions to the characters of the parents are that there are some things - like, superficial elements of it - of the parents that they recognize in themselves. But other than"}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 39, "text": "Let's take another short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Michael R. Jackson. His musical, \"A Strange Loop,\" won this year's Tonys for best musical and best book for a musical. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I definitely came of age. I came out into what I always call the Black, gay, teenage storyline of my life. There were lots of Black, gay, teenage boys around me. They were sexually active. They wer"}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 40, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Michael R. Jackson. His musical, \"A Strange Loop,\" won this year's Tonys for best musical and best book for a musical. It also won a Pulitzer Prize for drama. If you want to hear more of the songs, the cast recording is out. How does it feel now to be in demand?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I definitely came of age. I came out into what I always call the Black, gay, teenage storyline of my life. There were lots of Black, gay, teenage boys around me. They were sexually active. They wer"}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 41, "text": "Well, I hope it's a good feeling, whatever being busy is to you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It feels like I'm never home, like, ever."}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 42, "text": "Since you worked as an usher at \"The Lion King\" when you started the process of writing \"A Strange Loop\" and the main character in \"A Strange Loop\" is an usher at \"The Lion King,\" now that you have a hit show, do you talk to the ushers? And do you try to hire ushers for whom this will be a good theater experience, a good opportunity for them to kind of almost be an apprentice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. No, it's good. It's - you know, I'd spent so many years, like, working terrible day jobs and, like, wanting to, like, jump out of the window because I hated whatever I was doing at the moment th"}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 43, "text": "How are you supposed to gesture to the restroom? What's the proper call?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't have anything to do with hiring the ushers. They're - they belong to a union, Local 306. They place them in the theaters they work at. But I do. When I go to the show, I do often talk to"}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 44, "text": "Because...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Open-handed. You're never supposed to point."}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 45, "text": "Michael R. Jackson, it's been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much. And, again, congratulations on the Tonys and the Pulitzer and the success that \"A Strange Loop\" is having.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because I guess pointing is seen as rude. I don't know the reasoning behind it, but, like, they have a lot of rules that are about decorum and making sure that, you know, the guests feel as, like, wel"}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 46, "text": "Michael R. Jackson wrote the book and the songs for the Broadway musical \"A Strange Loop.\" You can hear the music from the show on the new cast recording. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be Bisha K. Ali, head writer of the Disney+ series \"Ms. Marvel,\" the first show or movie in the Marvel Universe to star a Muslim hero. Its heroine, Kamala Khan, battles bad guys, sure. But she's also just trying to figure out how to be a teen living with her immigrant parents in Jersey City. Ali was born in England to Pakistani parents. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1112008855", "date": "2022-07-18", "guest": "Unidentified Group", "title": "'A Strange Loop' writer and composer started out on Broadway as an usher", "question_index": 47, "text": "FRESH AIR'S executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham with additional engineering today from Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley, Susan Nyakundi and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1112225039", "date": "2022-07-19", "guest": "Claes Oldenburg", "title": "Remembering sculptor Claes Oldenburg, who made monumental everyday objects", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. The artist Claes Oldenburg once said, I am for art that embroils itself in everyday crap and still comes out on top. Oldenburg died yesterday. He was 93. He and his wife and partner, Coosje van Bruggen, designed a series of what they called colossal monuments - large public sculptures in the shapes of everyday objects. Chicago has an Oldenburg baseball bat - Miami, a fruit bowl. Cleveland has a giant stamp - and Las Vegas, a flashlight. Philadelphia, where we produce our show, has a 45-foot-high clothespin that's across the street from City Hall. It's easily my favorite public sculpture in the city. When I pass by, I feel as if it's winking at me, acknowledging that life and art are sometimes absurd. Oldenburg's monuments have been controversial, but as art critic Robert Hughes once wrote, no living artist combines the roles of magician and clown with as much skill as Oldenburg. Oldenburg was born in Sweden but grew up in Chicago. I spoke with him in 1992.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1112225039", "date": "2022-07-19", "guest": "Claes Oldenburg", "title": "Remembering sculptor Claes Oldenburg, who made monumental everyday objects", "question_index": 1, "text": "Although you've been doing these sculptures for years, they've never ceased becoming controversial. Why do you think people get upset when an ordinary object is used as the subject of art?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1112225039", "date": "2022-07-19", "guest": "Claes Oldenburg", "title": "Remembering sculptor Claes Oldenburg, who made monumental everyday objects", "question_index": 2, "text": "I'm interested in the roots of how you started doing these oversized, now colossal sculptures of ordinary objects. You started doing this kind of work in much smaller versions, I believe, as in the early 1960s. What was on your mind then that let you in that direction?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't know if that's what upsets people. But, of course, the tradition in public sculpture is to create something hierarchical which is up on a pedestal. And people are perhaps surprised when "}
{"id": "1112225039", "date": "2022-07-19", "guest": "Claes Oldenburg", "title": "Remembering sculptor Claes Oldenburg, who made monumental everyday objects", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the first large-scale work was in 1969, which was the lipstick for Yale University. Before that, I'd been doing fantastic drawings of real sites, such as the clothespin I mentioned, where - they"}
{"id": "1112225039", "date": "2022-07-19", "guest": "Claes Oldenburg", "title": "Remembering sculptor Claes Oldenburg, who made monumental everyday objects", "question_index": 4, "text": "What is it about ordinary objects that you take such pleasure in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So this stimulated the students to commission a sculpture on a large scale, a real version of these fantastic proposals. And so I got the commission to do a sculpture for the center of Yale University"}
{"id": "1112225039", "date": "2022-07-19", "guest": "Claes Oldenburg", "title": "Remembering sculptor Claes Oldenburg, who made monumental everyday objects", "question_index": 5, "text": "My interview with artist Claes Oldenburg was recorded in 1992. He died yesterday at the age of 93. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll talk about a military surgeon who spent World War I reconstructing the faces of soldiers and sailors who had suffered horrific facial injuries at a time when plastic surgery was in its infancy. Our guest will be Lindsey Fitzharris, who chronicles the work of Dr. Harold Gillies in her new book, \"The Facemaker.\" I hope you'll join us. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham with additional engineering today from Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley, Susan Nyakundi and Joe Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. And we all want to thank Joel Wolfram for doing such excellent work on our show these past few months. It's always a pleasure to work with him. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I've always been very interested in deriving my art from my surroundings, from my daily experiences. So my daily experiences are not very adventurous or dramatic. They tend to revolve around ver"}
{"id": "1112699295", "date": "2022-07-21", "guest": "Maggie Severns", "title": "How the CPI became the most powerful messaging force in the MAGA universe", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. A soapbox for the far right, the insurrectionists' clubhouse - that's how the Conservative Partnership Institute is described in an investigative article co-authored by my guest, Maggie Severns, a domestic policy reporter for the startup online publication Grid, which is about putting the news in context. The CPI is little known outside Trump circles, but according to the article, it's quickly become among the most powerful messaging forces in the MAGA universe. Several of its affiliated groups are headed by ex-Trump aides. One of the CPI's leaders is Mark Meadows, who was Trump's final chief of staff. The CPI was founded by Jim DeMint, a Republican from South Carolina who served in the House and Senate, was closely aligned with the Tea Party movement and helped push the Republican Party further to the right. He left the Senate to become president of the conservative think tank The Heritage Foundation and then went on to start CPI. Maggie Severns is a former national affairs reporter for Politico, where she covered money and politics and the 2016 election. We recorded our interview yesterday. Maggie Severns, welcome to FRESH AIR. So what is the Conservative Partnership Institute - CPI?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1112699295", "date": "2022-07-21", "guest": "Maggie Severns", "title": "How the CPI became the most powerful messaging force in the MAGA universe", "question_index": 1, "text": "It sounds like it's a whole MAGA universe - a, like, one-stop shopping place for all your MAGA needs if you're somebody in the political world. So describe some of the organizations affiliated with the CPI and how this is - how this can be a whole, like, infrastructure for the MAGA universe.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. The Conservative Partnership Institute, I think, is a group that really speaks to the state of Trump in Washington now that he's not in power. It is an organization that under it has nearly a do"}
{"id": "1112699295", "date": "2022-07-21", "guest": "Maggie Severns", "title": "How the CPI became the most powerful messaging force in the MAGA universe", "question_index": 2, "text": "Doesn't it also have, like, accounting services and public relations and messaging?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And infrastructure is a word that we were using a lot when we were talking about this story because that's something that the MAGA universe hasn't really had a lot of - right? - is groups that r"}
{"id": "1112699295", "date": "2022-07-21", "guest": "Maggie Severns", "title": "How the CPI became the most powerful messaging force in the MAGA universe", "question_index": 3, "text": "Why does the MAGA world think it's necessary to have this institute that's basically an infrastructure for the political and money end of MAGA?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So they really have everything. You know, those are examples of some of the kind of more meaty programs from CPI, but it really is a full-service shop, I would say, for pro-Trump Republicans, includin"}
{"id": "1112699295", "date": "2022-07-21", "guest": "Maggie Severns", "title": "How the CPI became the most powerful messaging force in the MAGA universe", "question_index": 4, "text": "So it's about the people who were in Trump's orbit but who want to be able to survive and carry on whether Trump is in the White House or not. So it's not specifically about Trump. It's a whole infrastructure that was kind of created in the Trump era but will exist independently of Trump.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that they probably looked to the rest of the Republican Party and Democrats and the things that they have had in the past that Trump really didn't have. So when Trump was in office, he didn't "}
{"id": "1112699295", "date": "2022-07-21", "guest": "Maggie Severns", "title": "How the CPI became the most powerful messaging force in the MAGA universe", "question_index": 5, "text": "Or at least eventually it will. They hope it will exist independently of Trump.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think it's about supporting..."}
{"id": "1112699295", "date": "2022-07-21", "guest": "Maggie Severns", "title": "How the CPI became the most powerful messaging force in the MAGA universe", "question_index": 6, "text": "Is the CPI in part meant to be a home for former Trump aides who perhaps are having a hard time finding a place for themselves within the Republican Party?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I was just going to say I think it's very much about supporting Trump and his policies. He's just not quite on the scene right now, right? So if he were president again, this would be a great he"}
{"id": "1112699295", "date": "2022-07-21", "guest": "Maggie Severns", "title": "How the CPI became the most powerful messaging force in the MAGA universe", "question_index": 7, "text": "Tell us about Mark Meadows' role in CPI. He was Trump's last chief of staff. He handed over a trove of documents to the January 6 House committee and then later refused to testify, and the House voted to hold him in contempt of Congress. So what is his role in CPI now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that in the weeks after January 6, that definitely was true for a while. You know, there was a lot of talk of folks from the Trump White House not being able to find jobs after we saw everythi"}
{"id": "1112699295", "date": "2022-07-21", "guest": "Maggie Severns", "title": "How the CPI became the most powerful messaging force in the MAGA universe", "question_index": 8, "text": "Let's talk about Cleta Mitchell, who runs the Election Integrity Network at the CPI. And she is a lawyer who was closely connected to Trump and was one of the lawyers advising him on how to overturn the results of the election. Describe her role in that, in the election.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Mark Meadows is one of the leaders of CPI. And, you know, he isn't focused on a specific policy area as much as he is presumably focused on helping grow the organization, which has grown rapidly in"}
{"id": "1112699295", "date": "2022-07-21", "guest": "Maggie Severns", "title": "How the CPI became the most powerful messaging force in the MAGA universe", "question_index": 9, "text": "So part of the work of this Election Integrity Network is to keep challenging votes, to challenge the administration of voting. Is it almost a form of harassment?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Mitchell was someone who was out after Trump, making the case that the election had been stolen. And, you know, what we've seen at CPI is that she's been able to, in some ways, really carry out "}
{"id": "1112699295", "date": "2022-07-21", "guest": "Maggie Severns", "title": "How the CPI became the most powerful messaging force in the MAGA universe", "question_index": 10, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk more about the CPI. If you're just joining us, my guest is Maggie Severns, and her latest article is called \"The Insurrectionists' Clubhouse: Former Trump Aides Find A Home At A Little-Known MAGA Hub.\" And Maggie Severns writes for Grid, which is a new online journalism site. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I think that we'll learn more after the midterm elections. I think that it's certainly - so, you know, it's so funny 'cause a public records request sounds so administrative. But when you ar"}
{"id": "1112699295", "date": "2022-07-21", "guest": "Maggie Severns", "title": "How the CPI became the most powerful messaging force in the MAGA universe", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Maggie Severns, who writes for the online publication Grid, which is an online startup that's dedicated to putting the news in context. And her latest article is titled \"The Insurrectionists' Clubhouse: Former Trump Aides Find A Home At A Little-Known MAGA Hub.\" And this home is called the Conservative Partnership Institute, and nearly two dozen alleged members of the January 6th plot are connected to this group. Stephen Miller, a former Trump aide and speechwriter who's a hard-liner on immigration and had a strong influence on Trump's anti-immigration policies - he runs a group linked to CPI, America First Legal. So tell us about Miller's association with CPI and what America First Legal does.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I think that we'll learn more after the midterm elections. I think that it's certainly - so, you know, it's so funny 'cause a public records request sounds so administrative. But when you ar"}
{"id": "1112699295", "date": "2022-07-21", "guest": "Maggie Severns", "title": "How the CPI became the most powerful messaging force in the MAGA universe", "question_index": 12, "text": "And let me ask you about Jeffrey Clark. Now, he worked at the DOJ, and Trump wanted to replace the acting attorney general with Jeffrey Clark because the acting attorney general wouldn't go along with Trump's plans to overturn the results of the election. So what's Jeffrey Clark's role at the CPI?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, so like we've discussed, CPI really is a network of different groups, and it's a kind of complicated arrangement. And one of the sister groups, as we could call it, America First Legal, is run b"}
{"id": "1112699295", "date": "2022-07-21", "guest": "Maggie Severns", "title": "How the CPI became the most powerful messaging force in the MAGA universe", "question_index": 13, "text": "Let me read something from the CPI website. This is about their messaging capabilities. It says, CPI Studios, our state-of-the-art media center, is now home to 15 podcasts, eight constituent video projects and constant visits by members of Congress and allied groups. In less time than it takes to eat lunch, members can conduct media and TV interviews from our studios and still make it back to the U.S. Capitol for an important vote. OK. So this says members of Congress work out of CPI for their media work. They're home to 15 podcasts. Who are some of the people who host their podcasts from CPI Studios?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Jeffrey Clark works over at the Center for Renewing America, which is another sister group that is run by Russ Vought, who was a longtime Jim DeMint aide. So we see a lot of these - one thing th"}
{"id": "1112699295", "date": "2022-07-21", "guest": "Maggie Severns", "title": "How the CPI became the most powerful messaging force in the MAGA universe", "question_index": 14, "text": "And these podcasts and other messaging, the video projects, they go right to the base. They bypass the mainstream media.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There seem to be a number of people who host podcasts from CPI Studios. I think I mentioned Lauren Boebert as being one of them; Andy Biggs, who's another major Freedom Caucus member. Jenna Ellis reco"}
{"id": "1112699295", "date": "2022-07-21", "guest": "Maggie Severns", "title": "How the CPI became the most powerful messaging force in the MAGA universe", "question_index": 15, "text": "I think that the American Accountability Foundation, which is affiliated with CPI, takes credit for finding a note in the Harvard Law Review in which they claimed that Ketanji Brown Jackson had argued that America's judicial system is too hard on sexual offenders. And they tweeted that she had been soft on sex offenders when she was a judge, and that really got traction during her hearings.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely. And that's something that we've seen in recent years both parties really try and do. But the Republican ecosystem, of course, has become kind of something of its own, especially since "}
{"id": "1112699295", "date": "2022-07-21", "guest": "Maggie Severns", "title": "How the CPI became the most powerful messaging force in the MAGA universe", "question_index": 16, "text": "You describe the CPI as a base for the Freedom Caucus, and the Freedom Caucus is the far-right caucus in the House. So in what way is the CPI a home base for the Freedom Caucus?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And this is, again, a story about messaging - right? - and what gets said in the public sphere, but now we're talking about what happens behind the scenes. And the American Accountability Founda"}
{"id": "1112699295", "date": "2022-07-21", "guest": "Maggie Severns", "title": "How the CPI became the most powerful messaging force in the MAGA universe", "question_index": 17, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Maggie Severns, and she writes for the start-up online publication Grid. She was formerly with Politico. Her latest article, the one she co-authored, is called \"The Insurrectionists' Clubhouse: Former Trump Aides Find A Home At A Little-Known MAGA Hub.\" And that hub is the Conservative Partnership Institute. We'll talk more about it after a short break. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, people who have really been following the January 6 hearings might remember there was this text that came out from Marjorie Taylor Greene to Mark Meadows where she said, we need to get"}
{"id": "1112699295", "date": "2022-07-21", "guest": "Maggie Severns", "title": "How the CPI became the most powerful messaging force in the MAGA universe", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I am Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Maggie Severns about the article she co-wrote titled \"The Insurrectionists' Clubhouse: Former Trump Aides Find A Home At A Little-Known MAGA Hub.\" The article is about the Conservative Partnership Institute, CPI, which is described in the article as having quickly become among the most powerful messaging forces in the MAGA universe. Several of its affiliated groups are headed by ex-Trump aides. One of the CPI's leaders is Mark Meadows, who was Trump's final chief of staff. The CPI was founded by Jim DeMint, a Republican from South Carolina who served in the House and the Senate, was closely aligned with the Tea Party movement, and helped push the Republican Party further to the right. Maggie Severns covers domestic policy for the online startup journalism publication Grid and is a former national affairs reporter for Politico where she covered money and politics and the 2016 election. In just a few years, CPI has grown from being a new organization to raising - what? - 19-, like, nearly $20 million. Is that total? Or is that per year?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, people who have really been following the January 6 hearings might remember there was this text that came out from Marjorie Taylor Greene to Mark Meadows where she said, we need to get"}
{"id": "1112699295", "date": "2022-07-21", "guest": "Maggie Severns", "title": "How the CPI became the most powerful messaging force in the MAGA universe", "question_index": 19, "text": "So what were you able to find out about who funds CPI and its affiliates?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's per year, and that's that we know of."}
{"id": "1112699295", "date": "2022-07-21", "guest": "Maggie Severns", "title": "How the CPI became the most powerful messaging force in the MAGA universe", "question_index": 20, "text": "It's funny 'cause, you know, I think of Trump as taking money and not giving money - you know, raising money, but not donating to other groups.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So you have a dark-money network, which means that it doesn't have to disclose any of its donors. But we were able to figure out some things. Now, Trump himself is probably CPI's most noteworthy"}
{"id": "1112699295", "date": "2022-07-21", "guest": "Maggie Severns", "title": "How the CPI became the most powerful messaging force in the MAGA universe", "question_index": 21, "text": "I want to ask you about the Tea Party, which is a kind of far-right group - political, kind of populist - that formed in response to Barack Obama - to his election and then his presidency. Do you see any connection between that group and what's evolved into MAGA or the CPI?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Which raises the questions of, why did he give that money to CPI? You know, one thing that was really interesting to us but didn't quite make it into the story was that shortly after Trump gave the mo"}
{"id": "1112699295", "date": "2022-07-21", "guest": "Maggie Severns", "title": "How the CPI became the most powerful messaging force in the MAGA universe", "question_index": 22, "text": "On the CPI's website, it talks about its ability to help with staffing. And here's a paragraph about that - we don't stop at simply training great staffers. Personnel is policy, which CPI identifies, interviews and places proven conservatives on the Hill and in organizations throughout Washington. To date, we've pitched hundreds of top-notch candidates for positions in key House and Senate offices. We recently expanded our team to prepare to staff new offices after the 2022 midterm elections. So if you take that at face value, it makes it seem like the CPI wants to place its people throughout the places of power in Washington. I have no idea how much power they really have or how successful they'll actually be at getting their people - and we're talking about MAGA people - as staffers in key offices. What is your evaluation of how much power they have to accomplish their goals and to make this a much bigger and even more powerful movement?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I'll give you kind of a big-picture answer and then a more specific one. The big picture is that when you look at the Tea Party and how it's evolved over time, it is striking to think about how "}
{"id": "1112699295", "date": "2022-07-21", "guest": "Maggie Severns", "title": "How the CPI became the most powerful messaging force in the MAGA universe", "question_index": 23, "text": "One of the greatest threats to democracy is when people lie about an election and say that the winner didn't win and that the loser really did win. And that's what we've been seeing now with a lot of the MAGA people. So do you consider the CPI, which is a MAGA organization - their election integrity network is run by an election denier. Do you see this group as a threat to democracy if they accomplish their goals of getting their people in powerful positions, getting their people as staffers in political offices?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think that one thing that we learned during the Trump administration is that personnel is policy, like CPI says, and kind of the importance of that. You know, Trump, when he came to Washington"}
{"id": "1112699295", "date": "2022-07-21", "guest": "Maggie Severns", "title": "How the CPI became the most powerful messaging force in the MAGA universe", "question_index": 24, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Maggie Severns. The article that we're talking about that she co-authored is titled \"The Insurrectionists' Clubhouse: Former Trump Aides Find A Home At A Little-Known MAGA Hub.\" And the hub is the Conservative Partnership Institute. We'll talk more about it after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that, like you said, the argument about whether the 2020 election was won or lost is a dangerous one because it shouldn't be an argument. And looking at CPI and other groups for other reportin"}
{"id": "1112699295", "date": "2022-07-21", "guest": "Maggie Severns", "title": "How the CPI became the most powerful messaging force in the MAGA universe", "question_index": 25, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview that we recorded yesterday with Maggie Severns. The article we're talking about that she co-authored is called \"The Insurrectionists' Clubhouse: Former Trump Aides Find A Home At A Little-Known MAGA Hub.\" The hub is called the Conservative Partnership Institute. And the article is published in Grid, which is a new online publication whose goal is to put the news in context. Are there any models for the CPI? Or is this something new?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that, like you said, the argument about whether the 2020 election was won or lost is a dangerous one because it shouldn't be an argument. And looking at CPI and other groups for other reportin"}
{"id": "1112699295", "date": "2022-07-21", "guest": "Maggie Severns", "title": "How the CPI became the most powerful messaging force in the MAGA universe", "question_index": 26, "text": "What are you going to be looking at as we approach the midterms?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is. You know, I spent several years covering money in politics. Before that, I was on Capitol Hill. This is not like anything that I've seen. I think it is an extension of a lot of things that we'v"}
{"id": "1112699295", "date": "2022-07-21", "guest": "Maggie Severns", "title": "How the CPI became the most powerful messaging force in the MAGA universe", "question_index": 27, "text": "In our basic democracy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think this is something people know, but it's hard to internalize - that the next election, and probably 2024, too, there's going to be a lot of talk from the right about the vote being unfair, you "}
{"id": "1112699295", "date": "2022-07-21", "guest": "Maggie Severns", "title": "How the CPI became the most powerful messaging force in the MAGA universe", "question_index": 28, "text": "You cover policy, domestic policy. Do you have a sense - I mean, the Republican Party does not have a platform for the presidential election, which is, like, pretty unusual. And the Republican Party has become famous for being an oppositional force as opposed to, you know, having real policies laid out. Though, abortion is an exception. They drove really hard on getting abortion overturned by appointing anti-abortion justices and creating laws on the state level that limited or now overturned abortion. Do you have a sense of what Republicans want policy-wise in the future?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And, you know, the extension there is our basic democracy. So I think that that's something that - it isn't going away. And that one thing when you look at a group like CPI is, that's building a"}
{"id": "1112699295", "date": "2022-07-21", "guest": "Maggie Severns", "title": "How the CPI became the most powerful messaging force in the MAGA universe", "question_index": 29, "text": "Do you have a sense of where leaders of the Republican Party stand on whether they want Trump to run in the next election or not? I really have no idea whether they see him, at this point, as a liability or as a plus. Certainly, they want his base, but do they want him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it really depends on what you - who you talk to, you know? The Supreme Court, I think, is set to, really, fulfill a long-held conservative dream of, really, reinforcing states' rights, which i"}
{"id": "1112699295", "date": "2022-07-21", "guest": "Maggie Severns", "title": "How the CPI became the most powerful messaging force in the MAGA universe", "question_index": 30, "text": "So you're confident that he's going to run?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that really depends on who you talk to. You know, you get the sense over time among leaders, Republican leaders in Congress sometimes, that it's like their lives would be easier if this whole "}
{"id": "1112699295", "date": "2022-07-21", "guest": "Maggie Severns", "title": "How the CPI became the most powerful messaging force in the MAGA universe", "question_index": 31, "text": "Yeah. How much - I know if he was president, that would offer some protection. But what if he's a presidential candidate? Does that offer any protection from being investigated or being subpoenaed to testify?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, he's saying he's going to run. I don't - you know, and he's (ph) has seemed to, in every indication, be intending on running. You can't quite predict the future or what's going to happen, and "}
{"id": "1112699295", "date": "2022-07-21", "guest": "Maggie Severns", "title": "How the CPI became the most powerful messaging force in the MAGA universe", "question_index": 32, "text": "Maggie Severns, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that one thing that's going to be really important for DOJ is this question of, what are the optics of investigating someone who's running for president? There's nothing in the law that says t"}
{"id": "1112699295", "date": "2022-07-21", "guest": "Maggie Severns", "title": "How the CPI became the most powerful messaging force in the MAGA universe", "question_index": 33, "text": "Maggie Severns co-wrote the article \"The Insurrectionists' Clubhouse,\" which is in the new online publication Grid where she covers domestic policy. After we take a short break, David Bianculli will review the new documentary series about Paul Newman and Joanne Woodward, their acting careers, and their marriage. It's directed by Ethan Hawke and streaming on HBO Max. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks so much for having me, Terry."}
{"id": "1112933753", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader asks, 'Can you change your nature?'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Bill Hader, welcome back to FRESH AIR. I love the series.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Gene Cousineau) Gene M. Cousineau. I look forward to this journey."}
{"id": "1112933753", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader asks, 'Can you change your nature?'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Well, that clip kind of summarizes part of what the first season was about, Barry knowing that he's a good hit man but truly wanting a different life. And he has trouble speaking the truth on stage. But when he speaks it off stage, like he did in that scene, people don't always believe him 'cause it seems...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hi."}
{"id": "1112933753", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader asks, 'Can you change your nature?'", "question_index": 2, "text": "...So preposterous. And that's a kind of constant thing in the series, that when people, like, act the truth, people don't necessarily want to hear it. When they act the more, you know, stage version of the truth, that's a distortion of the truth, people, like, give them accolades", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1112933753", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader asks, 'Can you change your nature?'", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1112933753", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader asks, 'Can you change your nature?'", "question_index": 4, "text": "It's a bummer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, people like a nice story."}
{"id": "1112933753", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader asks, 'Can you change your nature?'", "question_index": 5, "text": "As one guy says", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a bummer."}
{"id": "1112933753", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader asks, 'Can you change your nature?'", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a bummer."}
{"id": "1112933753", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader asks, 'Can you change your nature?'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yeah. How did the idea of a hit man who wants to be an actor get started? Like, what was the germ of that idea?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. We - that was the thing we kept saying. It was like, oh, that was a bummer. Yeah. That was like - it was a real bummer. And so, yeah, a lot of times the - you know, in Season 2, the whole - Henr"}
{"id": "1112933753", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader asks, 'Can you change your nature?'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Oh, so you weren't buddies. Like, somebody, like, played matchmaker.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Alec Berg and I were kind of put together by our mutual agent. This is back in 2014, and..."}
{"id": "1112933753", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader asks, 'Can you change your nature?'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Wait. What was that first idea?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Yeah, we're in the same comedy circles and stuff like that, but we thought, oh, well, let's go. And, you know, I had this deal at HBO and - to make a show, but I didn't know what the show was. And t"}
{"id": "1112933753", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader asks, 'Can you change your nature?'", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know? Like, I just was like, I can't really get into this. I mean, we have bits. There's comedy bits, but where's the emotion? Where's the story? And, really, where are the stakes to it, you kno"}
{"id": "1112933753", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader asks, 'Can you change your nature?'", "question_index": 11, "text": "So I want to get back to the idea of, you know, acting as truth-telling, as telling some, like, emotional truth and drawing that emotional truth from deep within yourself. So did you ever go through that kind of soul-searching as an actor? You didn't go to acting school, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I hate hit men. And he said, hit man's like dogcatcher. There's more intelligent in movies than there are in real life. You know, there's not - hit man - what is that, you know? But what do those mean"}
{"id": "1112933753", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader asks, 'Can you change your nature?'", "question_index": 12, "text": "So, like, what kinds of experiences or secondhand experiences are you basing that class on where it's all about, like, getting to the emotional truth? And sometimes, like, the acting teacher will emotionally push one of the students to the edge to get them to the point where they're ready to, like, be emotionally naked on stage.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I went to Second City LA. I just - I learned just improv. But not - I never took an acting class, really, like the one that's in the show."}
{"id": "1112933753", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader asks, 'Can you change your nature?'", "question_index": 13, "text": "Oh, as research for the series?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we - I mean, we went to acting classes and audited them and sat in the back."}
{"id": "1112933753", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader asks, 'Can you change your nature?'", "question_index": 14, "text": "One of the students.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As research for the series, yeah. So - and then at some point, Alec just had to go because some of the people would recognize me and it would be weird and - what is he doing here? And so Alec would ki"}
{"id": "1112933753", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader asks, 'Can you change your nature?'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Oh, really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Where he berates her into getting the right emotional response. And we - Alec saw that."}
{"id": "1112933753", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader asks, 'Can you change your nature?'", "question_index": 16, "text": "The acting teacher in the series, the Henry Winkler character - Henry Winkler basically says to the acting student, you know what I call that? That's fake acting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He ended up calling me, saying, I just saw this thing where this guy just went after this actress hard to get her to this place. And then she started doing the scene, and she was really, you know, cry"}
{"id": "1112933753", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader asks, 'Can you change your nature?'", "question_index": 17, "text": "And he's really, like, mean, but then...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1112933753", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader asks, 'Can you change your nature?'", "question_index": 18, "text": "But then she gives this, like, brilliant performance afterwards. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. He calls her babe and chick, yeah."}
{"id": "1112933753", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader asks, 'Can you change your nature?'", "question_index": 19, "text": "The first time I interviewed you, I didn't know about this, but apparently, when you were on \"Saturday Night Live,\" you had a lot of anxiety about performing live and even had, like, a panic attack, I think while the show was on, while you were...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2019 interview with former \"Saturday Night Live\" player Bill Hader, who now stars in the HBO comedy series \"Barry.\" Hader has won two best comedy actor Emm"}
{"id": "1112933753", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader asks, 'Can you change your nature?'", "question_index": 20, "text": "...While you were doing a bit playing Julian Assange.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. On the air, I had a panic attack."}
{"id": "1112933753", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader asks, 'Can you change your nature?'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Can you describe what happened then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1112933753", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader asks, 'Can you change your nature?'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Wow. That seems like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I was doing Julian Assange. It was Jeff Bridges hosting. And I don't know what happened, but I suddenly went, I can't breathe. It felt like - it just felt like I was dying. I just - that's the o"}
{"id": "1112933753", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader asks, 'Can you change your nature?'", "question_index": 23, "text": "...Unusual things to worry - like, 'cause...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And, like, attack us."}
{"id": "1112933753", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader asks, 'Can you change your nature?'", "question_index": 24, "text": "...I thought you'd be worrying about, you know, like, I'm going to forget my lines. I didn't know you were worrying about...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah, yeah. It got crazy. It got a little..."}
{"id": "1112933753", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader asks, 'Can you change your nature?'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, and you forget your lines and things."}
{"id": "1112933753", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader asks, 'Can you change your nature?'", "question_index": 26, "text": "So I have to ask you about your eyes. On \"Saturday Night Live,\" you always - you have very big eyes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know? And he goes, well, that's an emotion you understand. We can write that."}
{"id": "1112933753", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader asks, 'Can you change your nature?'", "question_index": 27, "text": "And you're one of those people who can, like, raise one eyebrow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1112933753", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader asks, 'Can you change your nature?'", "question_index": 28, "text": "And on \"Saturday Night Live,\" you always used your eyes great for comic effect. On \"Barry,\" staring into your - like, when I look at your eyes on \"Barry,\" like, sometimes your eyes are saying, like, thousand-yard stare, the stare of a soldier who's seen combat too long. Sometimes, it's the stare of someone with just, like, so much existential dread. And sometimes, it's the stare of somebody who has just become overtaken by rage and anger. And I wonder if you think about your eyes at all or whether they - it just kind of happens that your eyes communicate so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1112933753", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader asks, 'Can you change your nature?'", "question_index": 29, "text": "Did you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1112933753", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader asks, 'Can you change your nature?'", "question_index": 30, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No, I would always do..."}
{"id": "1112933753", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader asks, 'Can you change your nature?'", "question_index": 31, "text": "Is that because you want to save time and money and get everything made on time and all that stuff?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I always do, like, two takes. I'm like, did I say everything right? Are we good? OK, let's move on. You know."}
{"id": "1112933753", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader asks, 'Can you change your nature?'", "question_index": 32, "text": "Just watching the takes is going to take forever?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Why would you do that? That makes - and now that I've done it, I'm like, wait. That's insane, you know? You don't need to do that."}
{"id": "1112933753", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader asks, 'Can you change your nature?'", "question_index": 33, "text": "Bill Hader, it's been great to talk with you again. I regret that our time is up. Thank you so much...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "? Could you do less?"}
{"id": "1112933753", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader asks, 'Can you change your nature?'", "question_index": 34, "text": "...For coming back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1112933753", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Bill Hader", "title": "On HBO's 'Barry,' Bill Hader asks, 'Can you change your nature?'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Bill Hader speaking to Terry Gross in 2019. The co-creator and star of HBO's \"Barry\" is up for Emmys this year as both actor and director, and \"Barry\" itself is nominated for outstanding comedy series. After a break, we'll hear from another of the show's Emmy nominees and former winners - supporting actor Henry Winkler. And Justin Chang reviews \"Nope,\" the new movie from Jordan Peele. I'm David Bianculli, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. This is a giant - this is a huge honor."}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Henry Winkler, welcome to FRESH AIR. You're terrific in this role. I'm so glad to have you on our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Barry Berkman) I think I'm good, Mr. Cousineau. Thank you."}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 1, "text": "So your character, Gene, is so intent on getting truthful performances from the students and have them dig deep into their souls. But he's also so narcissistic and wrapped up in the mystique he's tried to create around himself in this little class. This must have made you think a lot about some of the best and worst acting teachers you had now that you're playing an acting teacher. Have you kind of gone back to look at your past and your acting teachers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 2, "text": "What is one of the worst acting exercises you were obligated to do when you were a student?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have. I've had about 14 teachers, from Emerson College to Yale Drama School, just in between those seven years. And what was amazing is that some of them were inspirational. Some of them were mean. "}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Wow. That seems really harsh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did an exercise with one of my favorite teachers. His name was Bobby Lewis. He was a member of the Group Theatre. Bobby Lewis had us pick a painting, pick a character in the painting, get some eleme"}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 4, "text": "So do you attribute this, like, mirror reverse thing that you were doing to the dyslexia?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Except that he was the man - to be honest, most of what I know, most of what I use in my well of education comes from the great Bobby Lewis."}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 5, "text": "So is that an example of bad teaching, when you kind of ruin somebody's - when you lower somebody's self-esteem even lower than it already was? Is that -", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do. I had no idea. And I, of course, had no sense of self at that time. I was an unrefrigerated bowl of Jell-O just before it congeals. I just thought, well, that's it. My career is over. My - they'"}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 6, "text": "- is that helpful?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do. I had no idea. And I, of course, had no sense of self at that time. I was an unrefrigerated bowl of Jell-O just before it congeals. I just thought, well, that's it. My career is over. My - they'"}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 7, "text": "And by the way, you didn't know you had dyslexia at the time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know what? I think a lot of acting teachers, they talk about breaking bad habits. They talk about breaking you down. And I totally get that. But I have also - I've taught four classes in my life. "}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 8, "text": "And you found out at the age of 31 because...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did not until I was 31."}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 9, "text": "How is that helpful, to have a diagnosis?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, after my stepson was tested because he was so verbal and he is so smart, but he couldn't do reports. He couldn't write. He couldn't organize his thoughts. And when we had him tested, everything t"}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 10, "text": "You mean punishment grounded - like, you're grounded.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The first thing? I got very angry because all of that - all of the arguments in my house with the short Germans who were my parents were for naught. All of the grounding was for naught. Then I..."}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Because your grades weren't good.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Like, I couldn't go to the dance on Friday night."}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 13, "text": "Right. So you really had to work hard to work through the dyslexia so you could learn your parts. I mean, if reading is hard, how are you going to memorize a part?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I couldn't watch - my grades were horrible. I am in the bottom 3%, academically, in America. That is calculated. And then I went from all of that anger to - I now understand, possibly, if I didn't fig"}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 14, "text": "I want to talk a little bit about \"Happy Days.\" How would you describe the series and your character to people too young to have seen it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, memorizing is different from the reading. The reading was - is still difficult for me. I - when we did \"Happy Days,\" I embarrassed myself for 10 years reading around that table with the producer"}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Your character exuded confidence...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a story about a family, about the trials and tribulations of living together. It was set in the '50s, where the music was great. And my character was a tough guy who rode a motorcycle, wore a l"}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 16, "text": "Good. Good.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "How did I do?"}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 17, "text": "I don't think you got to the more goofy parts of the character", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 19, "text": "OK. That he thought he was, like, it, you know, that he was just, like, the greatest, most handsome, most...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What would that be, in your mind?"}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 20, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, people treated him like that."}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Wow. Did you really, like, tell them who the character needed to be before you accepted the part?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know that he thought he was 'cause when he - you know, the first thing I said to the producers when they called me on my birthday in 1973 and said, would you like to play this part, I said, he"}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 22, "text": "OK", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 23, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 24, "text": "So I want to ask you about your parents. I don't know if they're still alive or not, so...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2019 interview with Henry Winkler, a supporting actor Emmy winner for his role as acting teacher Gene Cousineau on the HBO comedy series \"Barry.\" He's been"}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 25, "text": "They're not. OK. So your...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They are not."}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 26, "text": "Your parents were German immigrants. They came...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 27, "text": "...Here in 1939.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were."}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 28, "text": "So - and you're Jewish. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, they did."}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 29, "text": "...It's good they came when they did. I think...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Through Ellis Island. I am."}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 30, "text": "...The door closed right behind them. Yeah. So what - how did they know to leave?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's true, or we would not be sitting here."}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 31, "text": "I always wonder how people know the time is right and they'd better get out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My father knew."}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 32, "text": "This was the U.S. government giving him permission to stay.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My father knew that it was time. He got a six-week visa from Germany to come and do work in New York but was expected to come right back. I have told this story - that he took his mother's jewelry, bo"}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 33, "text": "And you had an uncle who stayed behind a little longer and couldn't get out, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes."}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 34, "text": "So was it - was your family religious? Were you raised...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did - Uncle Helmut. And he was supposed to escape with a submarine that was supposed - you know, they had a meeting place. And they - a lot of friends were going to get on this submarine and get out"}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Do you think that the Holocaust made your parents feel more strongly about being observant?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My family was religious. They are certainly more religious than I am. I am proud of my religion. My children were all bat and bar mitzvahed. But I'm not as traditional or keeping the tradition as my p"}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 36, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't have an answer to that question."}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 37, "text": "You didn't like your parents. Is that what you're saying?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't like them so much I didn't pay attention a lot. I didn't..."}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 38, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's - yeah, I didn't."}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 39, "text": "Do you think that your parents, having gotten out just in time, your uncle having died in Auschwitz...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Now, certainly now, I've mellowed, but a lot of my life was fueled by the fury of these two people who were so nonpresent on who I was on the Earth."}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 40, "text": "...You know, the knowledge of what happened to everybody who - all the Jews who stayed behind in Germany...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 41, "text": "Do you think that that made your father more disappointed in you and in your difficulties reading and everything? Because it's like, what do you have to complain about? Why can't you be better? Look what happened in Germany. Like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes."}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 42, "text": "So in addition to your acting, you also have co-authored a series of novels about...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know what? I don't know if that is true. Listen. I figure the trauma of leaving your country, losing your family, the Holocaust of - what was happening in the world at that moment certainly affect"}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 43, "text": "...A boy named Hank who has...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 44, "text": "...Dyslexia, as do you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 45, "text": "And it's in a special typeface, which I thought was really interesting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 46, "text": "I didn't know there was a typeface for dyslexic people.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the younger..."}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 47, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know what? There wasn't."}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 48, "text": "Yeah? What makes it different?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And a dad in Holland came up with it, and the publisher, Penguin Putnam, chose the typeface. It was the first time it was ever used in America. And I have to say, I am so proud because I could have us"}
{"id": "1112937386", "date": "2022-07-22", "guest": "Henry Winkler", "title": "Actor Henry Winkler reflects on his career, from the Fonz to 'Barry'", "question_index": 49, "text": "Henry Winkler, it's just been great to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The ascending line of the T, the descending line of the G. The C is - there's a different distance in the opening of the C. They are more weighted at the bottom of the letter, so they sit more comfort"}
{"id": "1114224368", "date": "2022-07-28", "guest": "Charles Homans", "title": "'Stop the Steal' has moved beyond Trump. Now it's threatening future elections", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The movement to reinstate President Trump has gone far beyond him and now threatens the future of American elections. That's one of the takeaways of Sunday's New York Times Magazine article \"How 'Stop The Steal' Captured The American Right\" by my guest, Charles Homans. He tracks how Stop the Steal morphed into a movement geared toward future elections. Homans says scores of groups at the state and local levels, with the help of right-wing media figures and activists, are taking aim at the electoral system. He also tells the backstory of Stop the Steal and traces its roots in the Tea Party movement that started after President Obama's election. Some Tea Party leaders were active in trying to overturn the 2020 election. The Stop the Steal movement didn't succeed in reinstating Trump, but it did succeed on another level. Homans cites polls showing that only about one-fifth to one-quarter of the Republican electorate considers Biden's presidency legitimate. Charles Homans is a New York Times reporter covering ideas and activism shaping domestic politics. He's a former politics editor at The New York Times Magazine. Charles Homans, welcome to FRESH AIR. Let's look at one example of a politician who kind of represents the continuity of Stop the Steal into the future, and this is Doug Mastriano, who I think is fair to say is a Christian nationalist. He's running on the Republican ticket for governor of Pennsylvania, which is a swing state. And he was very active in Stop the Steal. We'll get to how in a moment. But if he wins as governor, what control will he have over elections in this Pennsylvania swing state?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1114224368", "date": "2022-07-28", "guest": "Charles Homans", "title": "'Stop the Steal' has moved beyond Trump. Now it's threatening future elections", "question_index": 1, "text": "So let's talk about his role in the Pennsylvania state legislature, where he is still a state senator - his role in trying to overturn the election.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in Pennsylvania, the governor directly appoints the official who has the most direct oversight of elections in the state. And this is different in every state, which is part of why this all beco"}
{"id": "1114224368", "date": "2022-07-28", "guest": "Charles Homans", "title": "'Stop the Steal' has moved beyond Trump. Now it's threatening future elections", "question_index": 2, "text": "Because he was adamant in opposing any kind of masking mandate.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So Mastriano is an interesting figure because he bridges really kind of multiple phases of this big - the big story of how Stop the Steal evolved. You know, he was somebody who, you know, first"}
{"id": "1114224368", "date": "2022-07-28", "guest": "Charles Homans", "title": "'Stop the Steal' has moved beyond Trump. Now it's threatening future elections", "question_index": 3, "text": "So Mastriano, as a state senator, became known for opposing all of the governor's - all of Pennsylvania Governor Tom Wolf's masking mandates and other COVID mandates. And, you know, he gained a following for that. And then after the election, when Stop the Steal started, he was one of the leaders of trying to get the Pennsylvania state legislature to appoint fake electors. Tell us about his role in that scheme.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And he was, you know, often present for these protests outside of the Capitol in which he was serving and was a very vocal opponent of pretty much all the measures that the - that Governor Tom "}
{"id": "1114224368", "date": "2022-07-28", "guest": "Charles Homans", "title": "'Stop the Steal' has moved beyond Trump. Now it's threatening future elections", "question_index": 4, "text": "So to connect the dots here, if they're not already obvious, if he becomes governor of Pennsylvania, a person who wanted to appoint fake electors to overturn the 2020 election would now be appointing the equivalent of a secretary of state who oversees the Pennsylvania election.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. Well, so what we know - I mean, so he kind of first shot to prominence in the claims about the election late in November after the election, when he convinced this Republican Policy Comm"}
{"id": "1114224368", "date": "2022-07-28", "guest": "Charles Homans", "title": "'Stop the Steal' has moved beyond Trump. Now it's threatening future elections", "question_index": 5, "text": "Mastriano's speeches sometimes use the language of Christian nationalism. First of all, what is Christian nationalism?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. And he's already spoken about how he would sort of appoint a like-minded person to that position."}
{"id": "1114224368", "date": "2022-07-28", "guest": "Charles Homans", "title": "'Stop the Steal' has moved beyond Trump. Now it's threatening future elections", "question_index": 6, "text": "And some Christian nationalists believe that the Constitution was divinely inspired.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think you can define it as a vision of - I mean, there's a lot of different definitions of it, but I think the - you know, the one that's sort of most germane here is that it's a way of thinking abo"}
{"id": "1114224368", "date": "2022-07-28", "guest": "Charles Homans", "title": "'Stop the Steal' has moved beyond Trump. Now it's threatening future elections", "question_index": 7, "text": "Mastriano's slogan is walk as free people. What does that mean in the language of Christian nationalism?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. There's a whole sort of, you know, theology built around the founding fathers in this, which, you know, very much informs the way that somebody like Doug Mastriano talks about politics today."}
{"id": "1114224368", "date": "2022-07-28", "guest": "Charles Homans", "title": "'Stop the Steal' has moved beyond Trump. Now it's threatening future elections", "question_index": 8, "text": "And one of the things about Mastriano is that he's very connected to the far-right. He paid $5,000 to the platform Gab, which is very far-right. And the founder of Gab, Andrew Torba, said that the money was for an ad campaign. And to give a sense of what Gab is like, Andrew Torba posted, look at the fruits of what happens when we allow pagans, Jews, nonbelievers, atheists to run our country - massive inflation, a border invasion, billions and billions of dollars being sent to foreign countries. So he's talking about allowing pagans, Jews, nonbelievers and atheists to run our country and how dangerous that is. Mastriano's opponent is the Democratic attorney general, Josh Shapiro, who is Jewish.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So that is a reference - if you see Mastriano's campaign literature, there is always - or often in small letters sort of around the margins of it, the verse John 8:36, which is the verse that reads, i"}
{"id": "1114224368", "date": "2022-07-28", "guest": "Charles Homans", "title": "'Stop the Steal' has moved beyond Trump. Now it's threatening future elections", "question_index": 9, "text": "So Mastriano won the primaries by 20 points or more than that. What does that tell you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. You know, I think the way that Torba kind of wraps the broader project of Gab in this religious language is sort of exemplary of something you see a lot on the right, right now, which is not ne"}
{"id": "1114224368", "date": "2022-07-28", "guest": "Charles Homans", "title": "'Stop the Steal' has moved beyond Trump. Now it's threatening future elections", "question_index": 10, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here because we need to take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Charles Homans. And his latest piece in The New York Times Sunday magazine is titled \"How Stop The Steal Captured The American Right.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I think it's an interesting primary to look at because pretty much all of the serious contenders in that primary - in the Republican primary - were in one way or another sort of genuflecting"}
{"id": "1114224368", "date": "2022-07-28", "guest": "Charles Homans", "title": "'Stop the Steal' has moved beyond Trump. Now it's threatening future elections", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Charles Homans. His latest article in The New York Times magazine is titled \"How Stop The Steal Captured The American Right.\" It's about how the Stop the Steal movement has its roots in the Tea Party movement and now goes beyond Trump and is threatening the future of American elections. So another politician who was active in Stop the Steal and is now charting a path beyond Trump is Couy Griffin, who is one of the Otero County commissioners in New Mexico. And he's the founder of the group Cowboys for Trump. What was his role in Stop the Steal?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I think it's an interesting primary to look at because pretty much all of the serious contenders in that primary - in the Republican primary - were in one way or another sort of genuflecting"}
{"id": "1114224368", "date": "2022-07-28", "guest": "Charles Homans", "title": "'Stop the Steal' has moved beyond Trump. Now it's threatening future elections", "question_index": 12, "text": "He has a role that would have been considered, you know, very minor in the past. He is a county commissioner in Otero County, N.M., but he has power in that position that he has been using. What has he done to challenge votes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was one of these sort of minor figures in the protests leading up to January 6 - between the election and January 6. He was - before that, in 2019, he started this group called Cowboys for Trump, w"}
{"id": "1114224368", "date": "2022-07-28", "guest": "Charles Homans", "title": "'Stop the Steal' has moved beyond Trump. Now it's threatening future elections", "question_index": 13, "text": "So he's an example of how people in politics who were connected to Stop the Steal can have an impact even at very local levels of government. How many people know who their county commissioner is? How powerful do people think of county commissioners as being? But they can interfere with elections.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So after January 6, Griffin went back to New Mexico. And he was eventually charged and convicted with a misdemeanor offense related to going into the excluded area at the Capitol on January 6. "}
{"id": "1114224368", "date": "2022-07-28", "guest": "Charles Homans", "title": "'Stop the Steal' has moved beyond Trump. Now it's threatening future elections", "question_index": 14, "text": "Griffin is an example of what you're saying in your article about a lot of people in politics have moved past Trump and are charting a post-Trump future. He said - and he is Christian - I don't know. Would you describe him as a Christian nationalist before I read this guy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Griffin is a good example of somebody who's already in office who, you know, is sort of extrapolating the lessons from, you know, Trump's narrative around 2020 to a local action. And you've also seen "}
{"id": "1114224368", "date": "2022-07-28", "guest": "Charles Homans", "title": "'Stop the Steal' has moved beyond Trump. Now it's threatening future elections", "question_index": 15, "text": "So here's his quote. \"I truly do believe that we're past the point of being rescued politically. If God wanted to bring our nation back through the realm of politics, President Trump would be sitting in office right now. Instead, it's almost like we started forming this golden calf with Donald Trump thinking that he was going to be our savior.\" So he's saying, like, Donald Trump isn't going to be our savior. He was just, like, a false god, a golden calf, so he's moving past Trump. It's a little unclear to me where he's moving.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was - I think he would fit that description. Yeah, he - I mean, he's a pastor, like a former cowboy church pastor, and he prayed over the - you know, the rioters on Jan. 6. So, yes, I would - yeah,"}
{"id": "1114224368", "date": "2022-07-28", "guest": "Charles Homans", "title": "'Stop the Steal' has moved beyond Trump. Now it's threatening future elections", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, let's take another break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Charles Homans, and his latest article in The New York Times Sunday magazine is titled \"How Stop The Steal Captured The American Right.\" We'll be right back after a short break. I am Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think it's interesting 'cause I asked him about that comment. He had said that in a podcast interview, and I asked him about it when I met him outside of the courthouse in Washington where he "}
{"id": "1114224368", "date": "2022-07-28", "guest": "Charles Homans", "title": "'Stop the Steal' has moved beyond Trump. Now it's threatening future elections", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Charles Homans about his latest article in The New York Times magazine, which is titled \"How 'Stop The Steal' Captured The American Right.\" It's about how the Stop the Steal movement has its roots in the Tea Party movement and now goes beyond Trump and is threatening the future of American elections. Charles Homans is a New York Times reporter covering ideas and activism shaping domestic politics. He's a former politics editor at the New York Times Magazine. You write about the connections between the Stop the Steal movement and the early days of the Tea Party and also the birther movement. So I want to start with the birther movement, and that was the movement that claimed that President Obama was illegitimately elected president because he wasn't qualified to run in the first place 'cause he wasn't born in the U.S.; he was born in Kenya. And, of course, he was not born in Kenya. He was born in Hawaii. He showed his birth certificate proving that. That was never good enough for the birthers. One of the loudest voices in the birther movement was Donald Trump. So what connection do you see between challenging Obama's legitimacy and Stop the Steal?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think it's interesting 'cause I asked him about that comment. He had said that in a podcast interview, and I asked him about it when I met him outside of the courthouse in Washington where he "}
{"id": "1114224368", "date": "2022-07-28", "guest": "Charles Homans", "title": "'Stop the Steal' has moved beyond Trump. Now it's threatening future elections", "question_index": 18, "text": "So one of the people clearly connecting the Tea Party movement to Stop the Steal is Amy Kremer, who was a prominent birther. She was a leader of the Tea Party, one of the organizers, and one of the people who protested President Biden's victory and wanted to overturn the results of the election. So what was her role as a Tea Party leader? What were her greatest contributions to getting the Tea Party off the ground?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that the birth certificate claims - or the birther claims, which, you know - as late as the end of Obama's presidency, you know, 40% - more than 40% of Republicans, you know, believed that he "}
{"id": "1114224368", "date": "2022-07-28", "guest": "Charles Homans", "title": "'Stop the Steal' has moved beyond Trump. Now it's threatening future elections", "question_index": 19, "text": "And what was her role in the 2016 election of Trump?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was an early organizer of the Tea Party Patriots, which was one of the first really important Tea Party groups. And then she went on to be a principal of the Tea Party Express later on, which was "}
{"id": "1114224368", "date": "2022-07-28", "guest": "Charles Homans", "title": "'Stop the Steal' has moved beyond Trump. Now it's threatening future elections", "question_index": 20, "text": "So she was concerned about the Republicans stealing the primary election from Trump before she was concerned about the 2020 election and wanting to overturn the results, planting the idea that you could steal - that even the Republican Party could steal an election.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In 2016, Kremer was one of the first real stars of the Tea Party world who threw her weight behind Trump in a series of political action committees starting very early in 2016. And notably, I mean, he"}
{"id": "1114224368", "date": "2022-07-28", "guest": "Charles Homans", "title": "'Stop the Steal' has moved beyond Trump. Now it's threatening future elections", "question_index": 21, "text": "Roger Stone, who was a 2016 Trump campaign adviser and was deeply involved in the Stop the Steal movement - he registered the URL stopthesteal.org in February of 2016, the day after the Nevada Republican caucuses. So what do you know about why, back in 2016, he registered the web address of stopthesteal?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And I think that's an important part of the history to understand - is that when Stop the Steal as a sort of slogan and as an idea first surfaced, it was not in the context of a Democratic, you "}
{"id": "1114224368", "date": "2022-07-28", "guest": "Charles Homans", "title": "'Stop the Steal' has moved beyond Trump. Now it's threatening future elections", "question_index": 22, "text": "And Trump was sowing the seeds of illegitimate elections after he won in 2016 when he insisted he also won the popular vote. There was his famous tweet - I won the popular vote if you deduct the millions of people who voted illegally. And, of course, there were not anything like millions of people who voted illegally. It's totally false. And in 2020, he told a rally, the only way we're going to lose this election is if the election is rigged. So, you know, people like Stone and Trump were setting the stage to challenge the election before the election.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, at this point, Stone, who had briefly worked for the Trump campaign the previous year, was sort of nominally out of Trump's orbit and running his own political action committee aligned with Trum"}
{"id": "1114224368", "date": "2022-07-28", "guest": "Charles Homans", "title": "'Stop the Steal' has moved beyond Trump. Now it's threatening future elections", "question_index": 23, "text": "So to end our interview, I want you to read something that you wrote in your new New York Times Magazine article, and it's about how Trump basically opened up a hole that other people have walked through to start something new. Would you read that for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And I think that's an important thing to remember here. And I do think it's what distinguishes the movement that grew up around this and around Trump from kind of what I would characterize as mo"}
{"id": "1114224368", "date": "2022-07-28", "guest": "Charles Homans", "title": "'Stop the Steal' has moved beyond Trump. Now it's threatening future elections", "question_index": 24, "text": "And is that where we are now - that Trump opened up this door to people who will take it further beyond him, and they don't necessarily need him anymore even though he still is a central focus?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) Trump had jolted American politics, probably irrevocably, by urging his supporters to see themselves as an American people distinct from the American population, a people whose particular lo"}
{"id": "1114224368", "date": "2022-07-28", "guest": "Charles Homans", "title": "'Stop the Steal' has moved beyond Trump. Now it's threatening future elections", "question_index": 25, "text": "Charles Homans, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that's right. I mean, I think one way of thinking about what he did in the wake of the election was as this act of imagination that he was sort of brazen enough to pursue that no other preside"}
{"id": "1114224368", "date": "2022-07-28", "guest": "Charles Homans", "title": "'Stop the Steal' has moved beyond Trump. Now it's threatening future elections", "question_index": 26, "text": "Charles Homans is a New York Times reporter covering ideas and activism shaping domestic politics. His latest article, \"How Stop The Steal Captured The American Right,\" is published in The New York Times Magazine. After we take a short break, jazz critic Kevin Whitehead will review a new tradition-minded album that includes standards performed by the Tyshawn Sorey Trio. It's a departure for Sorey, who's known as a composer and free improviser as well as a drummer. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 0, "text": "That's Oscar Isaac reading from the character's journal in \"The Card Counter.\" Oscar Isaac, welcome to FRESH AIR - such a pleasure to have you on our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As William Tell) I like the routine. I like the regimen - same activities, same time every day, the same toothbrush, the same clothes, the same toilet, same stale sweat, stale smoke, stale bodies, st"}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 1, "text": "I love this movie so much. And it's part of director and screenwriter Paul Schrader's series of movies about a man alone in his room or God's lonely man, which is a line from \"Taxi Driver,\" from his journal. And you know, Paul Schrader has described these films, which include \"Taxi Driver,\" \"Light Sleeper,\" \"First Reformed,\" as a man alone in a room, wearing a mask, and the mask is his occupation. I also think of these characters as being dead inside. Like, something they've experienced has caused them to basically be, you know - yeah, to be dead inside. And typically, they find something that's on the verge of bringing them closer to being alive again, but that thing doesn't last long.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So happy to be here with you."}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 2, "text": "Guilt.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was interesting because I wouldn't think of them as dead inside. I would think that the mask is kind of a deadening - you know, the card-counting mask, this kind of self-imposed purgatory tha"}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 3, "text": "Wasn't enough punishment.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Guilt - and really, the biggest thing is trauma. And that's one of the first books that Paul sent over to me, which is \"The Body Keeps The Score,\" the great book on trauma. The author - I can't rememb"}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 4, "text": "And can we say that the trauma is as a result of having served in the Iraq War and things he had to do or was told to do during that war?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 5, "text": "You know, you mentioned purgatory - that this character is living in a purgatory. Paul Schrader, who wrote and directed the film, was brought up in a very strict Calvinist family, where - I mean, there was no dancing, no singing, no movies allowed. You grew up in an evangelical family. And I'm wondering if the idea of hell and the devil and eternal suffering was very real to you when you were growing up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. He was asked to do very horrible things - to torture people. And he did it because he thought it was the right thing to do. And I think the biggest trauma of all is that he was good at it, and he"}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 6, "text": "Oh, so it was the left behind thing. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What we grew up with - and it was funny because I just talking the other day with my sister about this - is, we grew up with a very, very real sense of the impending doom, of the apocalypse. We had pi"}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 7, "text": "The plagues, the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You're going to be left behind in the years of tribulation with the mark of the beast and, you know..."}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 8, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, all the plagues..."}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 9, "text": "Wow. That's a lot to deal with as a child.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...That are coming and all that. No, yeah, yeah. That was a real sense. It was less about if you've done right or wrong. It's like, how much do you really believe in Jesus, you know? Do you really bel"}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 10, "text": "I mean, it's like, it's the worst horror movie, but - except it's real in your mind.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It's its own type of trauma."}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 11, "text": "Oh, right. And is the world going to end? Or, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. What's funny though, too, is, unlike, you know, maybe Paul's upbringing - Paul Schrader's upbringing - ours was a little less - how can I put this? - a little less principled, meaning sometimes "}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 12, "text": "Yeah, yeah. A little sidebar here - what did your parents store for the apocalypse?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Are we all being left behind now as a family? What's going on here?"}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 13, "text": "You must have felt like you were living in a little fort with the ammunition and the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, a lot of - my dad was in a kind of - trying to get canned goods and things like that; you know, ammunition. I remember Y2K was a big - you know, it felt like that was like a convergence of t"}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 14, "text": "So I want to get back to \"The Card Counter.\" You read from your - well, you have voice-overs of the journal that you're keeping. And it's, of course, obviously very much an echo of \"Taxi Driver,\" where Travis Bickle has his diary that he reads from or that he narrates", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2021 interview with actor Oscar Isaac. He became a noteworthy movie star playing a 1960s folk singer in the Coen brothers film \"Inside Llewyn Davis.\" More "}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 15, "text": "through voice-overs in the film. I know that you know the film \"Taxi Driver,\" so was there anything you wanted to capture or avoid from the way that De Niro inhabited Travis Bickle and the way he read the diary?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2021 interview with actor Oscar Isaac. He became a noteworthy movie star playing a 1960s folk singer in the Coen brothers film \"Inside Llewyn Davis.\" More "}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well those journals are so important because your character is not an emotional character. He holds everything in. And the insight that we have into him is through the journal. So we are in your head because of the journals. We know what you are thinking. We know your deepest thoughts.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there are - they're such different characters. There's such a different energy to them. I didn't concern myself too much with that, you know? In some ways, I embraced the similarities as well. Y"}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 17, "text": "So as a radio person, I really listen to voices when I watch movies. And you have a great voice, and it has such good effect in the readings from the journals because your voice has such richness and depth. And yet you're reading in this kind of monotone that we described, and it's a really - it's a very powerful combination.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What's interesting with that is just, like, the - you know, because with acting, it's like, all right, well, what's my intention, right? Why am I saying what I'm saying? And that's a difficult thing w"}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is Joel and Ethan Coen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...As much as I frustrated them. I remember Joel and Ethan actually talking about that - that that's something in auditions that they listen for a lot."}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 19, "text": "Yeah. That's a good insight. Tell me something great that a voice teacher told you about the spoken voice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Coen - yeah, yeah - talking about, you know, the difficulty because so many modern actors, you know, there's just a thinness to the voice. Or - and I think it's a lot about, you know, not wanting to c"}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 20, "text": "Oh. Oh, gosh. For anybody who doesn't get that joke, you're of Guatemalan and Cuban descent.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I remember - this wasn't great, but - this is the opposite of great. But I remember my teachers said, you have such a rich, sandy quality to your voice. Was that from listening to all that flamenco gr"}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 21, "text": "Yeah. No. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Flamenco is from Spain. I didn't grow up listening to flamenco."}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 22, "text": "That is great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, you know what? I did remember one thing that just came to me when you asked me what are some good things that the voice teachers said. One of my teachers at Juilliard, Richard Feldman - he did say"}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 23, "text": "You know, getting back to \"Taxi Driver\" and its connection to \"The Card Counter,\" I think you said that \"Taxi Driver\" was basically in your DNA. What was the impact of that film on you? When did you first see it? And what does it mean to you? And maybe, how has the meaning changed over the years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 24, "text": "And has the meaning of it changed to you over the years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Yeah. I saw it - I think I must have been 16 years old. That was one of the ones that actually made me want to make movies. And I remember we started - me and my friends started making lots of "}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 25, "text": "So in \"Scenes From A Marriage,\" your wife is played by Jessica Chastain. It's about a dissolving marriage and the aftereffects of the dissolution. I want to play a clip from \"Scenes From A Marriage,\" and this is from the third episode. And so it's been a year since you and your wife have separated. She left you for another man. And since she left, you and your young daughter Ava have stopped using the upstairs rooms of the house, and your downstairs office is now a bedroom for you and your daughter Ava with a partition dividing their bed spaces. And in this scene, Mira's come over to the house, and she still has feelings for you. And while you've moved on with someone else, you're still in a very vulnerable place. So you both start kissing, and then you stop her, and you say this.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross. Let's get back to our interview with actor Oscar Isaac. He's nominated for an Emmy this year for his starring role in the HBO limited series"}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 26, "text": "That's my guest Oscar Isaac in a scene from \"Scenes From A Marriage.\" You were a father by the time you shot that scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Jonathan) I don't think you actually really understand what it was like for me here a year ago. That first moment was - I was just on autopilot. I woke Ava up. I got her dressed. I dropped her off"}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 27, "text": "Yeah. So do you think there was, like, an emotional depth you were able to bring to it? - 'cause I think all parents worry about something happening to their child and carry around a certain amount of guilt for something that they did do or should have done or wish they'd done or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, father of two."}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 28, "text": "There's been so much social media in terms of \"Scenes From A Marriage\" about your looks, about, you know, you being sexy, about your body 'cause there's a very brief, you know, full-frontal shot. What's your reaction to that? I know you're not that big on social media. But how do you feel about people commenting on your body and in a very positive way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, of course. We didn't have to reach so far. You know, I'm not an ex-torturer living a life in a casino. I'm not, you know, a space king. You know, this was - sometimes, you know, at the end of th"}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 29, "text": "It's maybe too brief to really notice that, but", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- that I wasn't raised modern Orthodox."}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 30, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- that I wasn't raised modern Orthodox."}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 31, "text": "That's really funny. I didn't realize that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I hope so, but some people clearly caught on. So I was like..."}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 32, "text": "Maybe a behind shot would have been better.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Maybe that was a little more..."}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 33, "text": "So let's talk a little bit about growing up. Your mother was from Guatemala, your father from Cuba. How did they meet? Where did they meet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I don't know. You know, it's - I think it's just part of the thing now, you know? You know, I mean, you've got so much - many more voices that are able to kind of talk and be heard. And it's - y"}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 34, "text": "So he's a pulmonologist.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My father - he was from Cuba, but he grew up in Washington, D.C. And he went to Guatemala for medical school, him and his two brothers. So it was down there that he met my mom."}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 35, "text": "Right. So you and your parents moved to the U.S. when you were 5 months old. Why did you move from Guatemala?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 36, "text": "When you were in Florida, your house was destroyed by Hurricane Andrew. How old were you then? And where were you during the storm - the hurricane? Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Work for my father. We moved back up in the D.C. area for his residency. So we moved there. I basically moved every two years my entire life. So yeah, we moved there. We were there for a year or two. "}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 37, "text": "Can you describe a little more what that experience was like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. This was 1992. So yeah, I was, you know, 12, 13 years old. And we were inside the house when the house blew down. Luckily, the one wall that we were up against was in the middle of the living ro"}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 38, "text": "Was that traumatizing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had my - I had a little dog with me, so I was kind of holding him the whole time. And our - my cousin and aunt and uncle - my two cousins and aunt and uncle - they had been evacuated from where they"}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 39, "text": "You know, it sounds like this was like an incredible, terrible lesson in impermanence and the impermanence of everything. But also, like, did it play into the whole end-of-the-world-apocalypse scenario that you were brought up to believe in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, very much so, and the days that followed, too. Because I remember staying at my grandma's house, and there was no lights. And then my sister went off with my mom, and so we got separated, "}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 40, "text": "And what about the end-of-the-world scenario? I mean, having your house blow away while you're inside of it - did that deepen - I don't know where you were in your own sense of belief at that time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, a bit. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, everything about life for me has been a lot of impermanence. You know, that's also the - what's funny about the profession that I'm in. You know, you have these really"}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 41, "text": "So 2017 - I want to skip ahead to there - was a really life-changing year for you. Your mother died in February. You got married in March. Your first child was born in April. During that period, you also played Hamlet. The impact of having death and new life so close together must have been - well, I don't know. Maybe you can say a little bit about what it was like. I've seen that happen so often where somebody - where an older member of a family dies and then a new baby is born. You know, talking about impermanence, what was it like for you to have, you know, death and new life so close together?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2021 interview with actor Oscar Isaac. He's up for an Emmy award this year for his starring role in the very different HBO remake of the 1973 Ingmar Bergma"}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 42, "text": "What does that mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. Just seeing that little - that gateway, you know, being the same one, right? You know, it's kind of go back to where you came from. Yeah. It was - it obviously was a very traumatic time as"}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 43, "text": "Another thing I can imagine happening is it shifting your whole sense of generations because you no longer had a mother but now you were a father. And so that's a huge shift in identity and a sense of where you are in the generations.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think I was always desperate to like - I got to be great. I need to be seen. I need to say the right thing. I need to make the right decision. I need - you know, there was just all these - tal"}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 44, "text": "I read that your mother loved Shakespeare. So when she was sick, you read \"Hamlet\" to her. I guess you were preparing for the role at that point?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, sure. You know, the grief was, you know, the only unconditional love I've ever really felt was from my mom. So, like, that was like God. And then God died. And then I - it's like, I'll never hav"}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 45, "text": "Yeah. So can you talk a little bit about passages from \"Hamlet\" that have just, like, special resonance for you because of reading it to your mother and because you were playing the role after she died. Because part of the - so much of the story is about grief. He's lost his father. He believes his father was murdered. And he thinks he knows who murdered him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 46, "text": "Well, just one more thing - you know, we talked earlier about growing up in an, you know, evangelical family with a profound belief in the inevitability of the apocalypse happening soon. And you said, when you left that faith, it was either - you know, either you believed or you didn't. That, too, was, like, an on-and-off switch. And you turned it off. Did you ever try turning it back on again? Or are you still in the off mode?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. There were so many. I mean, I remember doing \"O, What A Rogue And Peasant Slave\" for her. And she's just like, oh, that's very good. She was just - she was so sweet about it. But I think the one"}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 47, "text": "Well, I wish you well with that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm trying to turn it back on. I'm grasping in the dark for the light switch because, yeah, I have found that, you know, living in just the kind of materialistic sense of things - you know, just the m"}
{"id": "1114446903", "date": "2022-07-29", "guest": "Oscar Isaac", "title": "For Oscar Isaac, life \u2014 and acting \u2014 is all about impermanence", "question_index": 48, "text": "Oscar Isaac, it's just been wonderful to talk with you. I'm really grateful that you joined us on the show today.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1115380528", "date": "2022-08-03", "guest": "Will Bunch", "title": "College is increasingly out of reach for many students. What went wrong?", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. How did college go from being the doorway to the American dream to the nightmare of starting adult life deep in debt, unsure of whether your degree will help you get a job that even pays enough to pay off that debt. How do we go from the 1944 GI Bill, which offered World War II veterans - or at least white ones - easy access to college, to now the stress of today of trying to get into the right college? And how did colleges and universities become a target of the right? My guest, Will Bunch, addresses these and other related questions in his new book, \"After The Ivory Tower Falls: How College Broke The American Dream And Blew Up Our Politics - And How To Fix It.\" Bunch is a national columnist for The Philadelphia Inquirer, focusing on social injustice, income inequality, politics and government. The roots of his new book go back about 15 years when he was a reporter at the Philadelphia Daily News and his two children were in grade and middle school. As they struggled to make ends meet, he wondered how he'd ever be able to afford sending his children to a good college, especially during the two years when they'd both be in college. Will Bunch, welcome back to FRESH AIR. And congratulations on your book.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1115380528", "date": "2022-08-03", "guest": "Will Bunch", "title": "College is increasingly out of reach for many students. What went wrong?", "question_index": 1, "text": "So your grandmother started a small college that was a secretarial college and then a business school. Your father - you know, your grandmother's son - went to college. You went to college. What did it mean to you? What did college mean to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks so much, Terry. Thanks for having me back. I appreciate it."}
{"id": "1115380528", "date": "2022-08-03", "guest": "Will Bunch", "title": "College is increasingly out of reach for many students. What went wrong?", "question_index": 2, "text": "In writing about how college became part of the American dream, you go back to the GI Bill of 1944. The GI Bill gave certain benefits to returning World War II veterans. How did access to college become part of the benefits received by veterans?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In the 20th century, college really became the American dream. It certainly was true in my family. There was just this innate sense that the path of life was to do better than the generation that came"}
{"id": "1115380528", "date": "2022-08-03", "guest": "Will Bunch", "title": "College is increasingly out of reach for many students. What went wrong?", "question_index": 3, "text": "So the GI Bill enabled veterans to go to any college they wanted to. Like, how did that work?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the GI Bill, which is such a landmark achievement, because it's really the first time that we experimented with making college a public good. And so when World War II was at a point where in 194"}
{"id": "1115380528", "date": "2022-08-03", "guest": "Will Bunch", "title": "College is increasingly out of reach for many students. What went wrong?", "question_index": 4, "text": "Well, first of all, you know, I want to mention something you point out in the book was that this was a great opportunity for returning veterans. Very few of those veterans were women. So it was an opportunity, really, for men and that most women were excluded from. And also, most Black people were excluded. Most Black veterans were excluded from this benefit, too. How did that happen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I mean, it was a remarkable benefit for the time. You could and many people did go to Ivy League schools or private institutions. You know, many campuses saw their enrollment double from the end "}
{"id": "1115380528", "date": "2022-08-03", "guest": "Will Bunch", "title": "College is increasingly out of reach for many students. What went wrong?", "question_index": 5, "text": "And college at that point, the way it was envisioned wasn't just about training for a job. It had like a higher purpose. President Truman, who succeeded Roosevelt, appointed a commission on higher education in 1946. And Truman said that we need to ensure that higher education would take its proper place in our national effort to strengthen democracy at home and to improve our understanding of our friends and neighbors everywhere in the world. So the emphasis was on like liberal arts education, a well-rounded person. How did that affect the direction of college and the expectations of students?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It wasn't under the law. It was interesting. Black veterans tended to be excluded because regional administrators were given a lot of leeway over how the program ran. So as you can imagine, regional a"}
{"id": "1115380528", "date": "2022-08-03", "guest": "Will Bunch", "title": "College is increasingly out of reach for many students. What went wrong?", "question_index": 6, "text": "Now, things started to change in the '60s because colleges became a place where students - many students became politicized. Many students became activists. Many of the young civil rights activists got started on college campuses. I mean, think of - as you point out, think of some of the sit-ins at lunch counters. Those were often college students - SNCC, the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee, which was a really important part of the civil rights movement. And then after that, you've got, like, the antiwar activists on campus and students demanding changes in the way education worked. The - you know, the feminist movement was very strong on campus. So what impact did that start to have politically in terms of a backlash against liberal arts education?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, the GI Bill and the surge in college enrollment came on the heels of not just World War II, but the Great Depression. You know, you had the big ideological movements of the 20th century, fas"}
{"id": "1115380528", "date": "2022-08-03", "guest": "Will Bunch", "title": "College is increasingly out of reach for many students. What went wrong?", "question_index": 7, "text": "And during the - it was - the Berkeley Free Speech Movement kind of coincides with Ronald Reagan becoming governor of California. What did he do to try to change the political atmosphere on campus?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, basically what happened in the 1960s is the kind of thing that - you know, the CIA calls this blowback - right? - when you pursue a goal and people turn against you - in this case, all the lofty"}
{"id": "1115380528", "date": "2022-08-03", "guest": "Will Bunch", "title": "College is increasingly out of reach for many students. What went wrong?", "question_index": 8, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Will Bunch, author of the new book \"After The Ivory Tower Falls.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ronald Reagan emerged as an underdog candidate for governor of California in 1966. And this was right after the Berkeley Free Speech Movement. It was when you started seeing publicity about the counte"}
{"id": "1115380528", "date": "2022-08-03", "guest": "Will Bunch", "title": "College is increasingly out of reach for many students. What went wrong?", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Will Bunch, author of the new book \"After the Ivory Tower Falls: How College Broke The American Dream And Blew Up Our Politics And How to Fix It.\" He's a columnist at the Philadelphia Inquirer. So a conservative or right-wing attack on colleges is a kind of theme through the second half of the 20th century and onward. You have McCarthy, you know, during the red-baiting era, closely examining colleges and universities, Reagan as governor in California and then maybe as president - I'm not sure...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ronald Reagan emerged as an underdog candidate for governor of California in 1966. And this was right after the Berkeley Free Speech Movement. It was when you started seeing publicity about the counte"}
{"id": "1115380528", "date": "2022-08-03", "guest": "Will Bunch", "title": "College is increasingly out of reach for many students. What went wrong?", "question_index": 10, "text": "...You know, worrying about the effect of college campuses. Rush Limbaugh, when he started on radio, was attacking college professors and the culture on campuses. Is - do you see - I mean, I think the answer is yes. How do you see colleges and universities today as being attacked by the right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1115380528", "date": "2022-08-03", "guest": "Will Bunch", "title": "College is increasingly out of reach for many students. What went wrong?", "question_index": 11, "text": "So we've talked about the backlash against the culture on college campuses. Let's talk about tuition 'cause that is such a big concern for all students and parents now. What started the trend of skyrocketing tuition?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the whole idea of critical thinking, of, you know, rational inquiry has in one way or another just consistently posed a threat to the American right. And it's funny because the issues have oft"}
{"id": "1115380528", "date": "2022-08-03", "guest": "Will Bunch", "title": "College is increasingly out of reach for many students. What went wrong?", "question_index": 12, "text": "You refer to the high-tuition, high-aid model. Where does the aid come in? Like, does - so it's a - tuitions have been rising. Where does the aid of the high-tuition, high-aid model come in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Several things happened at once. You know, as we discussed, I do feel part of it was the political backlash, that taxpayers were no longer interested in giving a blank check to public universities. An"}
{"id": "1115380528", "date": "2022-08-03", "guest": "Will Bunch", "title": "College is increasingly out of reach for many students. What went wrong?", "question_index": 13, "text": "Will, I want to ask you about some of the plans that have been offered politically. Like, Senator Bernie Sanders has, you know, proposed forgiving student debt, which is a very controversial stand to take. What makes it so controversial? Like, what would it mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Ivy League schools, you know, like Harvard, are able to do a little bit more with financial aid than some of their competitors. You know, these schools have billion-dollar endowments, and some o"}
{"id": "1115380528", "date": "2022-08-03", "guest": "Will Bunch", "title": "College is increasingly out of reach for many students. What went wrong?", "question_index": 14, "text": "Their responsibility in terms of paying taxes to cover the debt?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Forty-five million people have some college debt. And many of those 45 million have more than 10,000. Some of them have 50,000, 100,000, 150,000. But you're talking about a minority of people. You kno"}
{"id": "1115380528", "date": "2022-08-03", "guest": "Will Bunch", "title": "College is increasingly out of reach for many students. What went wrong?", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well, we need to take another break here, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Will Bunch, author of the new book \"After The Ivory Tower Falls: How College Broke The American Dream, Blew Up Our Politics - And How To Fix It\" (ph). He's a columnist at the Philadelphia Inquirer. We'll be right back. I am Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. That the - you know, I mean, it's a very abstract thing. They basically - the government isn't getting the loan repayments, and so that's hurting the federal budget. So eventually, that would c"}
{"id": "1115380528", "date": "2022-08-03", "guest": "Will Bunch", "title": "College is increasingly out of reach for many students. What went wrong?", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Will Bunch, author of the new book \"After The Ivory Tower Falls: How College Broke The American Dream And Blew Up Our Politics - And How To Fix It.\" It's about how we got to the point where instead of college, opening the door to opportunity and a better life, it leaves many students deep in debt, unable to get jobs with salaries big enough to pay off the debt. Bunch also writes about how college admission standards and high tuitions end up leaving many young people feeling excluded, which has contributed to the economic and political divisions of our country. Bunch is a columnist for The Philadelphia Inquirer, focusing on social injustice, income inequality, politics and government. Tuitions are so high in some schools, it just seems like how can anybody afford to pay like $70,000 a year for tuition and then do that for four years? You can explain how college tuition, you know, got more expensive, but it's really so expensive. Like, how did it get that high? Not - I mean, not every college costs that much, but a lot do.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. That the - you know, I mean, it's a very abstract thing. They basically - the government isn't getting the loan repayments, and so that's hurting the federal budget. So eventually, that would c"}
{"id": "1115380528", "date": "2022-08-03", "guest": "Will Bunch", "title": "College is increasingly out of reach for many students. What went wrong?", "question_index": 17, "text": "So for students who are in over their heads financially in order to go to college and are accruing a lot of debt, what happens in the other parts of their life during college years in terms of being able to afford rent or food?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In the book, I devote a whole chapter to looking at the situation at one college, which is Kenyon College in Ohio. And I picked Kenyon partly for the political environment because it's a very liberal "}
{"id": "1115380528", "date": "2022-08-03", "guest": "Will Bunch", "title": "College is increasingly out of reach for many students. What went wrong?", "question_index": 18, "text": "One of your suggestions in the book is a universal gap year, so that when you graduate high school, you have a year before entering college. And that year could include a year of national service. Could you describe what you have in mind?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think one of the major things about college today in the 2020s that the average person who's not in touch with college life doesn't understand is just the high level of problems like food inse"}
{"id": "1115380528", "date": "2022-08-03", "guest": "Will Bunch", "title": "College is increasingly out of reach for many students. What went wrong?", "question_index": 19, "text": "So you think like a year of national service would be helpful?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Maybe instead of feeling this incredible pressure at age 18 to either pick the right college and figure out what they're going to major in and how to pay for it, in so many of these 18-year-olds who d"}
{"id": "1115380528", "date": "2022-08-03", "guest": "Will Bunch", "title": "College is increasingly out of reach for many students. What went wrong?", "question_index": 20, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Will Bunch, author of the new book \"After The Ivory Tower Falls.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do. I don't think, you know - some people have said we should make it mandatory. I don't think you can do that in the current political climate. But I do think, you know, if you made it a phenomenon"}
{"id": "1115380528", "date": "2022-08-03", "guest": "Will Bunch", "title": "College is increasingly out of reach for many students. What went wrong?", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Will Bunch, author of the new book \"After The Ivory Tower Falls: How College Broke The American Dream And Blew Up Our Politics - And How to Fix It.\" You say that Republicans are waging a war on higher education. And you offer examples from a couple of states, Wisconsin and North Carolina. Give us an example of what you mean.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do. I don't think, you know - some people have said we should make it mandatory. I don't think you can do that in the current political climate. But I do think, you know, if you made it a phenomenon"}
{"id": "1115380528", "date": "2022-08-03", "guest": "Will Bunch", "title": "College is increasingly out of reach for many students. What went wrong?", "question_index": 22, "text": "We both live in Pennsylvania. And Doug Mastriano, who's a Christian nationalist and very right wing - he supports the lie that Trump actually won the election. Does he have plans to change college and universities if he's elected as governor?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Wisconsin is a perfect example, particularly during the tenure of Scott Walker as governor from 2010 to 2018. Some of it was just cutting funding for education. He certainly tried to reduce tenu"}
{"id": "1115380528", "date": "2022-08-03", "guest": "Will Bunch", "title": "College is increasingly out of reach for many students. What went wrong?", "question_index": 23, "text": "You mentioned that Mastriano has plans for K-12. And you wrote a column about that recently in which you wrote that, you know, he'd like to cut state aid to public schools by more than half, with parents able to use those dollars for religious schools or homeschooling. Can you expand on what's behind that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he's very focused. I mean, he wants to radically change K-12 education. But I think cuts in college would almost - in college funding by the state would almost certainly come with that. You know"}
{"id": "1115380528", "date": "2022-08-03", "guest": "Will Bunch", "title": "College is increasingly out of reach for many students. What went wrong?", "question_index": 24, "text": "Well, Will Bunch, I want to thank you a lot for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the big reason the right is so obsessed about education comes out of the George Floyd protests from the spring of 2020. I think the size of those protests, the fact that in a lot of kind of sm"}
{"id": "1115380528", "date": "2022-08-03", "guest": "Will Bunch", "title": "College is increasingly out of reach for many students. What went wrong?", "question_index": 25, "text": "Will Bunch is a columnist for the Philadelphia Inquirer and author of the new book \"After The Ivory Tower Falls: How College Broke The American Dream And Blew Up Our Politics - And How To Fix It.\" After we take a short break, Nick Quah will review two podcasts that take us back to the period of the counterculture. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks so much for having me, Terry. I really appreciate it."}
{"id": "1115387338", "date": "2022-08-03", "guest": "Larry Josephson", "title": "Remembering alternative radio pioneer Larry Josephson", "question_index": 0, "text": "We're going to end today's show by remembering Larry Josephson, a pioneer of listener-supported radio. He died last Wednesday. He was 83. Starting in 1966, several years before NPR existed, he hosted a free-form morning show on the noncommercial radio station WBAI in New York. As his obit in The New York Times says, he helped shape the station into a vibrant, eccentric, alternative radio haven. He later hosted shows that were carried on many NPR stations including the \"Bob & Ray Public Radio Show\" that brought the comedy duo back to radio, \"Bridges,\" a, liberal-conservative dialogue - Larry was the liberal - and \"Only In America,\" the story of American Jews in which one of his interviewees was Ruth Bader Ginsburg. In an email from Larry's daughter Jennie, she wrote that he grew up listening to the radio, and when she arrived at his side Wednesday night shortly after his passing, there was static on the radio by his bed. Some of us on FRESH AIR got to know Larry back in the days when we often sent our guests to his home recording studio in Manhattan to record their end of the interview. Larry loved to tell jokes, old jokes with punchlines, and to send emails with jokes. Name the subject, and he'd probably know a joke about it. We're going to remember him by listening to the time he told a few on our show back in 2001. On that episode of our show, we had on the author of a book about the history of circumcision, and then I spoke with a mohel. A mohel is a Jewish man who performs the Jewish rite of circumcision on baby boys a few days after their birth. We knew we could count on Larry for some good mohel and circumcision jokes. So we asked him to tell a few to conclude the episode.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1115387338", "date": "2022-08-03", "guest": "Larry Josephson", "title": "Remembering alternative radio pioneer Larry Josephson", "question_index": 1, "text": "Larry, do you know lots of mohel jokes?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1115387338", "date": "2022-08-03", "guest": "Larry Josephson", "title": "Remembering alternative radio pioneer Larry Josephson", "question_index": 2, "text": "Well, give us a few.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I know lots of - I have been able to recall six or seven of them, but they just - they keep on coming."}
{"id": "1115387338", "date": "2022-08-03", "guest": "Larry Josephson", "title": "Remembering alternative radio pioneer Larry Josephson", "question_index": 3, "text": "It took me a while to actually get that", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right. A ribbon salesman is about to retire, and he calls on a buyer at Bloomingdales. And he tells the buyer that he's never been able to sell Bloomingdales any ribbon, and would the buyer just b"}
{"id": "1115387338", "date": "2022-08-03", "guest": "Larry Josephson", "title": "Remembering alternative radio pioneer Larry Josephson", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right. A ribbon salesman is about to retire, and he calls on a buyer at Bloomingdales. And he tells the buyer that he's never been able to sell Bloomingdales any ribbon, and would the buyer just b"}
{"id": "1115387338", "date": "2022-08-03", "guest": "Larry Josephson", "title": "Remembering alternative radio pioneer Larry Josephson", "question_index": 5, "text": "OK, joke No. 2.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Some of these are sort of delayed. They have a delayed fuse on them."}
{"id": "1115387338", "date": "2022-08-03", "guest": "Larry Josephson", "title": "Remembering alternative radio pioneer Larry Josephson", "question_index": 6, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right."}
{"id": "1115387338", "date": "2022-08-03", "guest": "Larry Josephson", "title": "Remembering alternative radio pioneer Larry Josephson", "question_index": 7, "text": "Where did you hear these?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Here we go. Two men were standing at adjacent urinals in a men's room of the Waldorf-Astoria, and one of them turns to the other says, you're from Cleveland, eh? The guy says, yeah, how did you know? "}
{"id": "1115387338", "date": "2022-08-03", "guest": "Larry Josephson", "title": "Remembering alternative radio pioneer Larry Josephson", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, Larry, thanks for the good jokes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've collected them over the - actually, I did some research. I called Marty Goldensohn, who called a friend of his, who called - and who is a Wall Street investment banker. And he reminded me of some"}
{"id": "1115387338", "date": "2022-08-03", "guest": "Larry Josephson", "title": "Remembering alternative radio pioneer Larry Josephson", "question_index": 9, "text": "That was Larry Josephson recorded on our show in 2001. Thank you, Larry, for your jokes, your friendship and your many contributions to radio. This month marks one year since the Taliban seized control of Afghanistan. It's been catastrophic for women. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll talk with Ramita Navai. She went undercover in Afghanistan to film her new \"Frontline\" documentary about how women are being controlled and punished by the Taliban. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My pleasure. Call anytime."}
{"id": "1115387338", "date": "2022-08-03", "guest": "Larry Josephson", "title": "Remembering alternative radio pioneer Larry Josephson", "question_index": 10, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I am Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My pleasure. Call anytime."}
{"id": "1115625446", "date": "2022-08-05", "guest": "Bill Russell", "title": "Remembering NBA legend Bill Russell", "question_index": 0, "text": "Well, let me put this into play for a second. Say, I mean, you led the NBA in rebounding for several seasons. Say you're getting a ball on the rebound, and you're using your peripheral vision to see where the rest of your team is so you can figure out who to tap the ball to. Tell me what's going through your mind, what you're doing physically and mentally on this rebound.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We had a drill that we would put our hands out in front and move them away, left hand go left and right hand would go right. And see how long - how far you could take them and still see them, both at "}
{"id": "1115625446", "date": "2022-08-05", "guest": "Bill Russell", "title": "Remembering NBA legend Bill Russell", "question_index": 1, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first of all, to get the rebound, I try to get to position before the shot's taken. You see, if you watch a player, see, you have to count on players being good, first of all. And one of the thi"}
{"id": "1115625446", "date": "2022-08-05", "guest": "Bill Russell", "title": "Remembering NBA legend Bill Russell", "question_index": 2, "text": "Let's talk a little bit about your approach to blocking your greatest opponent, which was Wilt Chamberlain. He was 5 inches taller than you were. Now, you had the ability to jump. How did you use jumping and anything else that you could do to block Chamberlain?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And every player likes to shoot."}
{"id": "1115625446", "date": "2022-08-05", "guest": "Bill Russell", "title": "Remembering NBA legend Bill Russell", "question_index": 3, "text": "Now, it sounds to me that you take a very analytical approach to the game.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So what I would do sometimes is, rather than try to block the shot, is when he's setting up for the shot, push him another 2 away from the basket. That changes the angle. It's very, very minor, but it"}
{"id": "1115625446", "date": "2022-08-05", "guest": "Bill Russell", "title": "Remembering NBA legend Bill Russell", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". You got to remember now, this is not rocket science."}
{"id": "1115625446", "date": "2022-08-05", "guest": "Bill Russell", "title": "Remembering NBA legend Bill Russell", "question_index": 5, "text": "In the days when you and Wilt Chamberlain were playing, and part of your job was to prevent him from scoring, could you have become friends with him off the court? I mean, would you ever hang out together? Or was it best for you to not really get to know him as a friend and as a person so that you could just be more kind of cold and calculating on the court and not...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is a game that kids play."}
{"id": "1115625446", "date": "2022-08-05", "guest": "Bill Russell", "title": "Remembering NBA legend Bill Russell", "question_index": 6, "text": "Oh, right, right, right. Yeah, stop him from scoring as much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, a couple things. First of all, I never tried to stop him from scoring. That would be a bad idea 'cause first of all, I would be doomed to failure. To stop him from scoring - that wasn't going to"}
{"id": "1115625446", "date": "2022-08-05", "guest": "Bill Russell", "title": "Remembering NBA legend Bill Russell", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yeah. Yeah. That's what I meant. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...If I can get..."}
{"id": "1115625446", "date": "2022-08-05", "guest": "Bill Russell", "title": "Remembering NBA legend Bill Russell", "question_index": 8, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. If he gets 45 points, if it took him 40 shots, then I've had a good night."}
{"id": "1115625446", "date": "2022-08-05", "guest": "Bill Russell", "title": "Remembering NBA legend Bill Russell", "question_index": 9, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You understand me?"}
{"id": "1115625446", "date": "2022-08-05", "guest": "Bill Russell", "title": "Remembering NBA legend Bill Russell", "question_index": 10, "text": "Mm hmm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. As for a friend, for five or six years, we had a Thanksgiving night game in Philadelphia at Convention Hall. You know where that is?"}
{"id": "1115625446", "date": "2022-08-05", "guest": "Bill Russell", "title": "Remembering NBA legend Bill Russell", "question_index": 11, "text": "And that was OK? It didn't prevent - it didn't, like, inhibit your ability to kick the hell out of him after, you know, his mother made you Thanksgiving dinner?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1115625446", "date": "2022-08-05", "guest": "Bill Russell", "title": "Remembering NBA legend Bill Russell", "question_index": 12, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. And it didn't bother him either. He didn't mind kickin' the hell out of me. In fact, one of those one of those nights, he got 55 rebounds..."}
{"id": "1115625446", "date": "2022-08-05", "guest": "Bill Russell", "title": "Remembering NBA legend Bill Russell", "question_index": 13, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Against us. And so he had no - he was not inhibited in any way, shape or form or fashion because, you know, when we got on the court, we were determined to outplay each other."}
{"id": "1115625446", "date": "2022-08-05", "guest": "Bill Russell", "title": "Remembering NBA legend Bill Russell", "question_index": 14, "text": "Now, you were Boston's first African American star athlete. And I think - when you joined the Celtics, I think you were the only African American on the team for a short while. Is that right?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're listening to the interview Terry Gross recorded in 2001 with Hall of Fame basketball player Bill Russell. He died Sunday at the age of 88."}
{"id": "1115625446", "date": "2022-08-05", "guest": "Bill Russell", "title": "Remembering NBA legend Bill Russell", "question_index": 15, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just for one year. You know, it's funny that with the Celtics..."}
{"id": "1115625446", "date": "2022-08-05", "guest": "Bill Russell", "title": "Remembering NBA legend Bill Russell", "question_index": 16, "text": "What about outside the organization, in Boston?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Within the organization, that was never an issue."}
{"id": "1115625446", "date": "2022-08-05", "guest": "Bill Russell", "title": "Remembering NBA legend Bill Russell", "question_index": 17, "text": "What year are we talking? What year did you join?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, at that time in the United States of America, that was very difficult. Now, we're talkin' 'bout..."}
{"id": "1115625446", "date": "2022-08-05", "guest": "Bill Russell", "title": "Remembering NBA legend Bill Russell", "question_index": 18, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I joined '56-'57 season. Now, this was like seven years before the '64 Civil Rights Act and before the Brown v. School Board. This is before all of those things. And in this country at that time, it's"}
{"id": "1115625446", "date": "2022-08-05", "guest": "Bill Russell", "title": "Remembering NBA legend Bill Russell", "question_index": 19, "text": "Yeah. Now, what about the fans when you were playing? Did you feel that the fans in Boston were with you, or did you feel that, like, white fans were uncomfortable rooting for a Black player?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know? And so it was like - it was more than just a race thing. It was also a cultural and religious thing. And so - and I spoke about it. But I'll say this. The only reason I spoke about it in B"}
{"id": "1115625446", "date": "2022-08-05", "guest": "Bill Russell", "title": "Remembering NBA legend Bill Russell", "question_index": 20, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To a certain degree - and that still exists. What happened is, for example, my second year in the league, I was the most valuable player. And in those days, the MVP was picked by the players. So my pe"}
{"id": "1115625446", "date": "2022-08-05", "guest": "Bill Russell", "title": "Remembering NBA legend Bill Russell", "question_index": 21, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "None that I would accept. You understand me?"}
{"id": "1115625446", "date": "2022-08-05", "guest": "Bill Russell", "title": "Remembering NBA legend Bill Russell", "question_index": 22, "text": "Here's a really important question. How do you feel about the longer, baggier shorts that players wear today compared to the shorter, tighter ones that players wore in your day?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so that I have a sense of self that I know what I did, how I did it and what I accomplished."}
{"id": "1115625446", "date": "2022-08-05", "guest": "Bill Russell", "title": "Remembering NBA legend Bill Russell", "question_index": 23, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, see, when we were young and energetic and the young ladies could see our thighs..."}
{"id": "1115625446", "date": "2022-08-05", "guest": "Bill Russell", "title": "Remembering NBA legend Bill Russell", "question_index": 24, "text": "No. No, I don't.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But do you know how the long shorts came to be?"}
{"id": "1115625446", "date": "2022-08-05", "guest": "Bill Russell", "title": "Remembering NBA legend Bill Russell", "question_index": 25, "text": "And how things go in and out of fashion.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so, you know, it's like - I just - it's so funny to me when I see things that people get upset about."}
{"id": "1115625446", "date": "2022-08-05", "guest": "Bill Russell", "title": "Remembering NBA legend Bill Russell", "question_index": 26, "text": "Bill Russell, one last question. Can you still jump? Do you have any reason to jump?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, you know?"}
{"id": "1115625446", "date": "2022-08-05", "guest": "Bill Russell", "title": "Remembering NBA legend Bill Russell", "question_index": 27, "text": "Right. Well, I want to thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I jump for joy sometimes because that's an integral part of my life. One of the first things that I remember as a kid was running along and just jumping just for the joy. I think jumping is really, re"}
{"id": "1115630129", "date": "2022-08-05", "guest": "Mick Moloney", "title": "Remembering Irish musician and folklorist Mick Moloney", "question_index": 0, "text": "Mick Moloney, welcome to FRESH AIR. I'd like you to introduce the first track on the new CD, which is called \"McNally's Row Of Flats.\" Would you describe this as an - one of the really early songs about city life in America?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. Mick Moloney, a beloved musician and folklorist who revived centuries-old, forgotten Irish songs, died last week at the age of 77 at his home in"}
{"id": "1115630129", "date": "2022-08-05", "guest": "Mick Moloney", "title": "Remembering Irish musician and folklorist Mick Moloney", "question_index": 1, "text": "OK. A song about multiculturalism long before anybody invented the word.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is indeed one of the early songs about city life in America, and it comes out of the context of Lower East Side Manhattan where Ed Harrigan lived along with David Braham. This was a time in the ear"}
{"id": "1115630129", "date": "2022-08-05", "guest": "Mick Moloney", "title": "Remembering Irish musician and folklorist Mick Moloney", "question_index": 2, "text": "Here it is, \"McNally's Row Of Flats.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is indeed one of the early songs about city life in America, and it comes out of the context of Lower East Side Manhattan where Ed Harrigan lived along with David Braham. This was a time in the ear"}
{"id": "1115630129", "date": "2022-08-05", "guest": "Mick Moloney", "title": "Remembering Irish musician and folklorist Mick Moloney", "question_index": 3, "text": "Would you just place us musically here? I mean, this is an era - we're talking, like, 18 seven - 1870s to 1890s?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Down in Bottle Alley lived Timothy McNally, a decent politician and a gentleman at that - beloved by all the ladies, the garsuns (ph) and the babies that occupy the building called McNally's"}
{"id": "1115630129", "date": "2022-08-05", "guest": "Mick Moloney", "title": "Remembering Irish musician and folklorist Mick Moloney", "question_index": 4, "text": "And so it kind of precedes Tin Pan Alley.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm-hmm."}
{"id": "1115630129", "date": "2022-08-05", "guest": "Mick Moloney", "title": "Remembering Irish musician and folklorist Mick Moloney", "question_index": 5, "text": "So what are the entertainments of that time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It does, yes."}
{"id": "1115630129", "date": "2022-08-05", "guest": "Mick Moloney", "title": "Remembering Irish musician and folklorist Mick Moloney", "question_index": 6, "text": "They do swing tunes and early jazz.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you would think of Gilbert and Sullivan around that era. That's the late 1870s. Actually, Harrigan and Braham started writing songs about six or seven years before Gilbert and Sullivan. Some of "}
{"id": "1115630129", "date": "2022-08-05", "guest": "Mick Moloney", "title": "Remembering Irish musician and folklorist Mick Moloney", "question_index": 7, "text": "Well, why don't we hear how it sounds on your CD...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, early jazz. And this was a little bit before his time. With him and his arranger, John Gill, who also plays in the band, we sort of stepped back another few decades, said, what might this have s"}
{"id": "1115630129", "date": "2022-08-05", "guest": "Mick Moloney", "title": "Remembering Irish musician and folklorist Mick Moloney", "question_index": 8, "text": "...With Vince Giordano's band behind you? So this is \"The Mulligan Guards\" (ph).", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1115630129", "date": "2022-08-05", "guest": "Mick Moloney", "title": "Remembering Irish musician and folklorist Mick Moloney", "question_index": 9, "text": "Now, this song is about - what? - a neighborhood militia?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) We crave your condescension. We'll tell you what we know of marching in the Mulligan Guard from the Sligo Ward below. Our captain's name was Hussey, a Tipperary man. He carried his sword lik"}
{"id": "1115630129", "date": "2022-08-05", "guest": "Mick Moloney", "title": "Remembering Irish musician and folklorist Mick Moloney", "question_index": 10, "text": "Mick Moloney, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Was the pairing between Irish and Jewish songwriters different than any other pairing in Tin Pan Alley?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I've just returned from Europe. I've seen London and Paris. And I'm glad to get back home to Yankee land. In fact, the little USA looks better now to me. It's the real place for the real fol"}
{"id": "1115630129", "date": "2022-08-05", "guest": "Mick Moloney", "title": "Remembering Irish musician and folklorist Mick Moloney", "question_index": 11, "text": "You mentioned Al Dubin. And he's, you know, a Jewish lyricist who worked a lot with Harry Warren in the '20s and '30s. And he wrote lyrics for, like, Busby Berkeley musicals, lyrics for songs like \"Lullaby Of Broadway,\" \"42nd Street,\" \"I Only Have Eyes For You,\" \"We're In The Money.\" But he also writes this, like, Irish song that you have featured on your CD. It's called 'Twas Only An Irishman's Dream. And the lyric includes, oh, the shamrocks are blooming on Broadway.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was because, first of all, the Irish had dominated American popular music, really, for the whole of the 19th century. You think of major figures like Thomas Moore. You think of Dan Emmett, "}
{"id": "1115630129", "date": "2022-08-05", "guest": "Mick Moloney", "title": "Remembering Irish musician and folklorist Mick Moloney", "question_index": 12, "text": "Every girl is an Irish colleen. And it's so funny to think of this, like, Jewish songwriter writing from the point of view of an Irish American who's, like, dreaming that everything in Manhattan is really Irish. On one level, it's really phony because he's writing from a point of view that he doesn't have.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1115630129", "date": "2022-08-05", "guest": "Mick Moloney", "title": "Remembering Irish musician and folklorist Mick Moloney", "question_index": 13, "text": "He's not he's not Irish American. He's Jewish American. His story is so different. On the other hand, that doesn't mean that the song would mean any less to the people who hear it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1115630129", "date": "2022-08-05", "guest": "Mick Moloney", "title": "Remembering Irish musician and folklorist Mick Moloney", "question_index": 14, "text": "And growing up in Ireland, did this song make no sense to you? Because, like, were you thinking, exactly what are you yearning for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, a song I heard, in fact, far too many times before. Every bad tenor in my native Limerick when he got drunk felt obliged to sing it and inflict it on the whole population. So I hated the song wit"}
{"id": "1115630129", "date": "2022-08-05", "guest": "Mick Moloney", "title": "Remembering Irish musician and folklorist Mick Moloney", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well, Mick Moloney, it's been great to talk with you again. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it made sense on one level because almost everybody I knew in Ireland had emigrants in England or America. So the idea of being away from home, of being in an exile, as we called it, culturally,"}
{"id": "1116281152", "date": "2022-08-09", "guest": "Dana Milbank", "title": "How the Republican Party came to embrace conspiracy theories and denialism", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I am Terry Gross. In his new book, \"The Destructionists: The Twenty-Five-Year Crack-Up Of The Republican Party,\" my guest, Dana Milbank, writes about how we got to where we are today. Some members of Congress and some of this year's Republican primary winners are election deniers that subscribe to conspiracy theories. One of Trump's major lies backed by conspiracy theories is that the 2020 election was stolen. His attempts to declare himself the winner led to the insurrection. In May of 2021, a poll by the Public Religion Research Institute found that 23% of Republicans agree that, quote, \"the government, media and financial worlds in the U.S. are controlled by a group of Satan-worshipping pedophiles who run a global child-sex trafficking operation,\" unquote. Milbank's book looks back over the past 25 years, tracing the roots of today's political lies and conspiracy theories. He begins in 1994 with Newt Gingrich, then a Republican congressman from Georgia, leading his party to a landslide victory in the midterms with Republicans taking over the House and the Senate. It was known as the Republican Revolution. During the early months of that revolution, Milbank came to Washington, D.C., to cover Congress for The Wall Street Journal, and then he covered Bill Clinton's presidency and his impeachment for The New Republic. That led to becoming the White House correspondent for The Washington Post and covering George W. Bush's presidency. Milbank has been a political columnist at The Post for the past 17 years. His years covering Washington provided what he describes as a front-row seat for the worst show on earth - the crackup of the Republican Party and the resulting crackup of American democracy. Dana Milbank, welcome back to FRESH AIR. I want to get your reaction to some of the comments that have been made as of this morning from Republicans about the FBI raid on Mar-a-Lago. House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy said that the Justice Department has, quote, \"reached an intolerable state of weaponized politicization.\" And he said, Attorney General Garland, preserve your documents, and clear your calendar - implying that he's going to be subpoenaed if Republicans take over the House. Republican Senator Marco Rubio of Florida said that the raid was akin to political persecution seen in, quote, \"third-world, Marxist dictatorships.\" Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, who's seen as a rival to Trump in - possibly in the presidential primaries, said the raid of Mar-a-Lago is another escalation in the weaponization of federal agencies against the regime's political opponents while people like Hunter Biden get treated with kid gloves. Now, the regime is getting another 87 million IRS agents to wield against its adversaries? Banana Republic. Lauren Boebert, Republican congressman from Colorado, tweeted, you may not realize it yet, but they're coming for all of us.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1116281152", "date": "2022-08-09", "guest": "Dana Milbank", "title": "How the Republican Party came to embrace conspiracy theories and denialism", "question_index": 1, "text": "You're referring to Republican leaders?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's really ominous, Terry. This is a dangerous time, and I am fearful for the country right now. It's even a step worse when you look at the pro-Trump social media channels. They're saying thin"}
{"id": "1116281152", "date": "2022-08-09", "guest": "Dana Milbank", "title": "How the Republican Party came to embrace conspiracy theories and denialism", "question_index": 2, "text": "So you're fastening your seatbelt.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. That's what they're doing right now. It's reckless rhetoric. It is turning people against the government, turning people against the FBI and the Justice Department. And it is only natural to expe"}
{"id": "1116281152", "date": "2022-08-09", "guest": "Dana Milbank", "title": "How the Republican Party came to embrace conspiracy theories and denialism", "question_index": 3, "text": "So if you haven't been following the backstory, of course, you'd be upset that the former president's home was raided by the FBI. But the backstory includes that he had taken 15 boxes of documents home which he was not legally allowed to do. There were classified documents in there. They were confiscated in a previous raid. The assumption is that this raid was looking for more such documents that Trump mishandled, and that could possibly be a criminal offense.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I am. Look, I mean, we've been in a dangerous period of time for some time now. But, you know, the people who really track the pro-Trump social media saying - are saying this is really the most ominou"}
{"id": "1116281152", "date": "2022-08-09", "guest": "Dana Milbank", "title": "How the Republican Party came to embrace conspiracy theories and denialism", "question_index": 4, "text": "Dana, let's get to your book, \"The Destructionists: The Twenty-Five-Year Crack-Up Of The Republican Party.\" And let's start where your book starts - in the mid-'90s when Republican Congressman Newt Gingrich of Georgia became the House speaker and took the House in a more divisive direction than it had been. In fact, you describe him as having pioneered savage politics. What do you mean by that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, of course, you would be. And if you are watching Fox News and reading Breitbart News and you're stuck in a social media silo where you're only getting highly filtered views, you probably haven't"}
{"id": "1116281152", "date": "2022-08-09", "guest": "Dana Milbank", "title": "How the Republican Party came to embrace conspiracy theories and denialism", "question_index": 5, "text": "What are some of the political tactics that you think he pioneered that are still being used today?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when people first heard Newt Gingrich speak, you know, during the runup to the 1994 Republican Revolution, it was - in a way, he was replacing Bob Michel, who had been this genial World War II v"}
{"id": "1116281152", "date": "2022-08-09", "guest": "Dana Milbank", "title": "How the Republican Party came to embrace conspiracy theories and denialism", "question_index": 6, "text": "For anyone who's thinking, oh, but that was like 20 or 25 years ago, like, where is Newt Gingrich now and? The answer is he's still politically active. What's he up to now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when we think back to - I mean, we look at our politics today, a series of government shutdowns, a series of showdowns over debt default, this whole notion of defeating the agenda to prove that "}
{"id": "1116281152", "date": "2022-08-09", "guest": "Dana Milbank", "title": "How the Republican Party came to embrace conspiracy theories and denialism", "question_index": 7, "text": "And on Fox News, Gingrich said that members of the January 6 committee - of the House January 6 committee are going to face a real risk of jail after Republicans take over Congress.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. He always pops up. Well, of course, he had his 2012 presidential run, which didn't get him to the presidency, although arguably he's just as influential in our politics if he had been. And lo and"}
{"id": "1116281152", "date": "2022-08-09", "guest": "Dana Milbank", "title": "How the Republican Party came to embrace conspiracy theories and denialism", "question_index": 8, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Dana Milbank. His new book is called \"The Destructionists: The Twenty-Five Year Crack-Up Of The Republican Party.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is fresh air.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He did. And this was actually right after The Washington Post reported that he was advising Kevin McCarthy. So we can only imagine what kind of advice House Republicans are getting right now. But thin"}
{"id": "1116281152", "date": "2022-08-09", "guest": "Dana Milbank", "title": "How the Republican Party came to embrace conspiracy theories and denialism", "question_index": 9, "text": "Let's get back to the interview I recorded with Dana Milbank. His new book is called \"The Destructionists: The Twenty-Five Year Crack-Up Of The Republican Party.\" He's been covering Washington politics since 1995, first for The Wall Street Journal, then The New Republic, and subsequent to that, The Washington Post, where he was a White House correspondent and has been a political columnist for the past 17 years. I think part of the point of your book is that - well, you out and out state this - that you think Trump is the symptom, he's not the cause, that these past 25 years have enabled him to become so powerful. And even if he leaves the stage, what created him is still there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He did. And this was actually right after The Washington Post reported that he was advising Kevin McCarthy. So we can only imagine what kind of advice House Republicans are getting right now. But thin"}
{"id": "1116281152", "date": "2022-08-09", "guest": "Dana Milbank", "title": "How the Republican Party came to embrace conspiracy theories and denialism", "question_index": 10, "text": "So you came to Washington, D.C., the year Newt Gingrich became speaker of the House. You didn't have history covering Washington before that. What you were witnessing, you now describe as unprecedented. How did you think of it at the time? Did you think, wow, this is something totally brand new? Who knows what this will lead to? Did you ever suspect it would lead to what you say it led to now because you connect Newt Gingrich directly with where we are now with an insurrection?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, Terry, I think that's the most crucial thing to understand. Now, you know, you and I and many of your listeners witnessed many of the events that happened over the past quarter-century. But they "}
{"id": "1116281152", "date": "2022-08-09", "guest": "Dana Milbank", "title": "How the Republican Party came to embrace conspiracy theories and denialism", "question_index": 11, "text": "Concurrent with the rise of Newt Gingrich was the rise of Rush Limbaugh on conservative talk radio and then Fox News. I want to ask you a little bit about Alex Jones, one of the - perhaps the prime conspiracy theorist in the United States. He has to pay $45 million in punitive damages to the parents of one of the Sandy Hook victims. And there are other suits pending now in which he will likely have to pay damages as well. What impact do you think that might have on conspiracy theorists who have media platforms to amplify their conspiracy theories?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That would not be truthful, and if one thing we've learned from Trump, it's to be truthful. I didn't see the Republican primary voters supporting Trump even in 2016. I - in fact, I said I would eat an"}
{"id": "1116281152", "date": "2022-08-09", "guest": "Dana Milbank", "title": "How the Republican Party came to embrace conspiracy theories and denialism", "question_index": 12, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Washington Post political columnist Dana Milbank. His new book is called \"The Destructionists: The Twenty-Five-Year Crack-Up Of The Republican Party.\" We'll be right back after a short break. I am Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'd like to think that it would have some chilling effect on that. I'm not terribly optimistic. We did see the same sort of thing with Fox News and with Seth Rich. This notion that this Democrat"}
{"id": "1116281152", "date": "2022-08-09", "guest": "Dana Milbank", "title": "How the Republican Party came to embrace conspiracy theories and denialism", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with Dana Milbank, a political columnist for The Washington Post. His new book, \"The Destructionist: The Twenty-Five Year Crack-Up Of The Republican Party,\" traces the history of today's political lies and conspiracy theories over the past 25 years, starting with the Republican revolution in 1994, when, under the leadership of Newt Gingrich, the Republicans swept the House and Senate, leading to Gingrich becoming Speaker of the House. In tracing how conspiracy theories entered the mainstream of Republican Party politics, you go back to the Clinton era and Vince Foster's death by suicide. And that was surrounded by a whole conspiracy theory that the Clintons ordered his murder, because this was during the Bill Clinton presidency. Tell us who Vince Foster was and his connection to the Clintons.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'd like to think that it would have some chilling effect on that. I'm not terribly optimistic. We did see the same sort of thing with Fox News and with Seth Rich. This notion that this Democrat"}
{"id": "1116281152", "date": "2022-08-09", "guest": "Dana Milbank", "title": "How the Republican Party came to embrace conspiracy theories and denialism", "question_index": 14, "text": "Yeah. And Kenneth Starr was a special prosecutor who also led the impeachment investigation of Bill Clinton. And Vince Foster had been deputy White House counsel. And he had been attacked in that position by Republicans, which is one of the things that apparently left him very depressed, because he felt like he was unjustifiably attacked and that it was seen as sport in Washington. But he was a real person who was very sensitive to this, apparently. So Brett Kavanaugh was working with Kenneth Starr, the special prosecutor. And he investigated the conspiracy theory that Foster was murdered. And part of this conspiracy was that the Clintons conspired to kill him, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. He was an old friend of the Clintons, I think went back to grade school with Bill Clinton from Arkansas. He got a job as deputy counsel in the White House, remained friendly with the Clintons. "}
{"id": "1116281152", "date": "2022-08-09", "guest": "Dana Milbank", "title": "How the Republican Party came to embrace conspiracy theories and denialism", "question_index": 15, "text": "Do you know how seriously Brett Kavanaugh took that conspiracy theory? I mean, he investigated it for a couple of years, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, indeed. And it went further than that. The whole notion is that there's this long Clinton hit list, that they're sort of serial killers. It's on websites to this day, all of the people who have m"}
{"id": "1116281152", "date": "2022-08-09", "guest": "Dana Milbank", "title": "How the Republican Party came to embrace conspiracy theories and denialism", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Washington Post columnist Dana Milbank. His new book is called \"The Destructionist: The Twenty-Five Year Crack-Up Of The Republican Party.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Well, we know because when he became - when he was nominated for the Supreme Court, a lot of his papers were out. So that's how we know a lot of this happened in the first place. And he said he"}
{"id": "1116281152", "date": "2022-08-09", "guest": "Dana Milbank", "title": "How the Republican Party came to embrace conspiracy theories and denialism", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with Dana Milbank, a political columnist for The Washington Post and author of the new book \"The Destructionists: The Twenty-Five Year Crack-Up Of The Republican Party.\" Let's get to Karl Rove. He was a political strategist who helped George W. Bush become governor of Texas and then helped him win the presidency. He was sometimes referred to as Bush's brain. And what are some of the tactics you think he pioneered that you see being used today - or not only used today, but taken even further today?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Well, we know because when he became - when he was nominated for the Supreme Court, a lot of his papers were out. So that's how we know a lot of this happened in the first place. And he said he"}
{"id": "1116281152", "date": "2022-08-09", "guest": "Dana Milbank", "title": "How the Republican Party came to embrace conspiracy theories and denialism", "question_index": 18, "text": "Yeah. So one of Karl Rove's tactics was political jujitsu. You take somebody's strength and turn it against them, make it their weakness, like saying that you think John Kerry was a Vietnam War hero? No. He lied about his medals. He lied about his Purple Heart. You think Max Cleland is a patriot because he fought in war and lost limbs? No. He's - we're going to link him with - we're going to show pictures of bin Laden in his ads and link him to terrorism. Do you think that that's a tactic still being used, turning an opponent's strength into a weakness by lying about what they did?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Well, Karl Rove was known as a dirty trickster going back to his days with the college Republicans during the Nixon days, dumpster diving, that sort of thing, very active in Texas politics for "}
{"id": "1116281152", "date": "2022-08-09", "guest": "Dana Milbank", "title": "How the Republican Party came to embrace conspiracy theories and denialism", "question_index": 19, "text": "And I want to ask you about a kind of staged uprising during the Florida recount of the 2000 contested presidential election between George W. Bush and Al Gore. And I'm referring to the Brooks Brothers riot. Would you describe what that was and how it was staged?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It absolutely is and particularly in this area of patriotism and of questioning. So you're not just saying that your opponent - I disagree with him. You're saying he is disloyal to the United States. "}
{"id": "1116281152", "date": "2022-08-09", "guest": "Dana Milbank", "title": "How the Republican Party came to embrace conspiracy theories and denialism", "question_index": 20, "text": "What is Karl Rove doing today?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. This was down in Miami-Dade, outside the elections board. And they were going to have a recount after that famously close election. So you had a lot of operatives, Republican operatives, flown i"}
{"id": "1116281152", "date": "2022-08-09", "guest": "Dana Milbank", "title": "How the Republican Party came to embrace conspiracy theories and denialism", "question_index": 21, "text": "I want to ask you about the Benghazi hearings, which went on - was it two years? Like, how long did that go on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he's - I - should I call him a colleague? He's writing a column for The Wall Street Journal editorial page. And he's running a dark money outfit that supports Republican candidates."}
{"id": "1116281152", "date": "2022-08-09", "guest": "Dana Milbank", "title": "How the Republican Party came to embrace conspiracy theories and denialism", "question_index": 22, "text": "But in reality...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Gosh, it seems like a decade, Terry, but..."}
{"id": "1116281152", "date": "2022-08-09", "guest": "Dana Milbank", "title": "How the Republican Party came to embrace conspiracy theories and denialism", "question_index": 23, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think it was more - I think what - if you look from the very beginning to the very end, it was about four years. It basically bled into..."}
{"id": "1116281152", "date": "2022-08-09", "guest": "Dana Milbank", "title": "How the Republican Party came to embrace conspiracy theories and denialism", "question_index": 24, "text": "Give us - to refresh our memories, give us the shortest version you possibly can of what the Benghazi investigation was about.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It happened on the eve of the 2012 campaign, and it bled right into 2016. And it became - it morphed into Hillary Clinton's email scandal because it was the Benghazi investigation that uncovered the e"}
{"id": "1116281152", "date": "2022-08-09", "guest": "Dana Milbank", "title": "How the Republican Party came to embrace conspiracy theories and denialism", "question_index": 25, "text": "So after the House select committee issued an 800-page report, which found no wrongdoing on Hillary Clinton's part, Jim Jordan and Mike Pompeo, both Republican congressmen at the time, dissented. Jim Jordan is still in Congress. If the Republicans win the House, he would become the head of the House Judiciary Committee. Mike Pompeo went on to become Trump's CIA director and then secretary of state. Anything you want to say about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the Benghazi case, like Vince Foster and all these other things, it was a tragic instance where the American compound in Benghazi was attacked, and our ambassador to Libya was killed. And there "}
{"id": "1116281152", "date": "2022-08-09", "guest": "Dana Milbank", "title": "How the Republican Party came to embrace conspiracy theories and denialism", "question_index": 26, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Washington Post political columnist Dana Milbank. He's the author of the new book \"The Destructionists: The Twenty-Five-Year Crack-Up Of The Republican Party.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Look, I think it shows where the incentive system is, where the rewards are - those who are the most outspoken. I mean, this is the Gingrich lesson. Those who are the most harsh, the most strident, ge"}
{"id": "1116281152", "date": "2022-08-09", "guest": "Dana Milbank", "title": "How the Republican Party came to embrace conspiracy theories and denialism", "question_index": 27, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with Dana Milbank, a political columnist for The Washington Post. And he's covered Washington politics for the past 25 years. His new book is called \"The Destructionists: The Twenty-Five-Year Crack-Up Of The Republican Party.\" It was a week ago that Arizona held its primaries. And several of the people who won the primaries are election deniers. I want you to talk about some of the people who won who you see as being the most extreme.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Look, I think it shows where the incentive system is, where the rewards are - those who are the most outspoken. I mean, this is the Gingrich lesson. Those who are the most harsh, the most strident, ge"}
{"id": "1116281152", "date": "2022-08-09", "guest": "Dana Milbank", "title": "How the Republican Party came to embrace conspiracy theories and denialism", "question_index": 28, "text": "Do you think that Trump will run again?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. I mean, right now in Arizona, you look at their candidate for the United States Senate. You look at their candidate for governor, for attorney general and for secretary of state - are all adhere"}
{"id": "1116281152", "date": "2022-08-09", "guest": "Dana Milbank", "title": "How the Republican Party came to embrace conspiracy theories and denialism", "question_index": 29, "text": "So one more question for you. In a few years, the U.S. will no longer be a white majority country. And that demographic change is likely to affect politics. What do you think the effect will be?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I am certain that he wants to. And the only thing that I believe that would stop him is ill health. So, I mean, that is - it has always been the case that he wants to and he wants to vindicate himself"}
{"id": "1116281152", "date": "2022-08-09", "guest": "Dana Milbank", "title": "How the Republican Party came to embrace conspiracy theories and denialism", "question_index": 30, "text": "Are you concerned that by the time we're no longer a white majority country, that democracy will be sufficiently destroyed, that the multicultural nature of our country won't register at the polls?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that demographic change is already affecting our politics. It's a backlash against the rising multicultural America that is bringing out white evangelical Christians to vote in extraordi"}
{"id": "1116281152", "date": "2022-08-09", "guest": "Dana Milbank", "title": "How the Republican Party came to embrace conspiracy theories and denialism", "question_index": 31, "text": "Dana Milbank, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm very concerned about that. And that's why I've written this book. You know, in the very long run, it becomes undeniable that this will be a multicultural America. But if we are not - if we r"}
{"id": "1116281152", "date": "2022-08-09", "guest": "Dana Milbank", "title": "How the Republican Party came to embrace conspiracy theories and denialism", "question_index": 32, "text": "Dana Milbank is a political columnist for The Washington Post. His new book is called \"The Destructionists.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be veteran cold case investigator Paul Holes. He played a key role in tracking down the Golden State Killer. His new memoir is about pursuing killers and the emotional toll of obsessing over gruesome crime scenes and talking to victims of horrific crimes. I hope you'll join us. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much, Terry. I enjoyed it."}
{"id": "1116917364", "date": "2022-08-11", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "How the Trump White House misled the world about its family separation policy", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. \"The Secret History Of The U.S. Government's Family-Separation Policy\" is the cover story of the new issue of The Atlantic magazine. This investigative article was written by my guest, Caitlin Dickerson. The separation policy, called zero tolerance, was created during the Trump administration, mandating that parents across the southern border illegally with children be separated from their children until legal proceedings concluded and parents were either granted asylum or deported, which could take a very long time. During the Trump administration, over 5,000 children were separated from their parents with no records that would enable parents and children to be reunited. For a year and a half, Trump administration officials denied that family separation even existed. Then they said separation wasn't the goal. It was just an unfortunate result of prosecuting parents who crossed the border illegally. But Dickerson found that separating children wasn't a side effect. She says it was the intent. She writes that instead of working to reunify families after parents were prosecuted, officials worked to keep them apart for longer. Her article, titled \"We Need To Take Away Children,\" is based on the year-and-a-half investigation she conducted, which included more than 150 interviews and reviewing thousands of pages of internal government documents, some of which were turned over to her after a multiyear lawsuit. During the Trump administration, she reported on the story as it unfolded for The New York Times, where she covered immigration. She's now a staff writer for The Atlantic. Caitlin Dickerson, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Congratulations on this remarkable investigation that you've conducted. Why did you want to continue investigating the story after Biden became president and after the Trump administration policy ended?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1116917364", "date": "2022-08-11", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "How the Trump White House misled the world about its family separation policy", "question_index": 1, "text": "When the policy of separation was announced in the spring of 2018, it had already been underway for months. Why hadn't it been announced? And why, when journalists like you asked about it after it became obvious what was happening, why was it denied?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much, Terry. I wanted to keep going with this story of family separations because even at the conclusion of zero tolerance in the summer of 2018, there was just so much that reporters and"}
{"id": "1116917364", "date": "2022-08-11", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "How the Trump White House misled the world about its family separation policy", "question_index": 2, "text": "The program in El Paso became a model for the national policy instituted during the Trump administration. And although there was family separation in that national policy and the administration denied that, you got access to a document that came out of this basically pilot program in El Paso, Texas. What did you learn from that report from the El Paso project that really contradicted everything that the administration was saying?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that the hundreds of separations that took place really in secret in 2017 were kept quiet because of the kind of unusual way in which they came about. So this idea to separate families, it was"}
{"id": "1116917364", "date": "2022-08-11", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "How the Trump White House misled the world about its family separation policy", "question_index": 3, "text": "So there was chaos in El Paso after the policy was instituted. That part of the lesson was not learned by the Trump administration when this policy went national.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think there were two big takeaways from the report that came out of the El Paso pilot program for me that contradicted what we were hearing from Trump administration officials and what I continued t"}
{"id": "1116917364", "date": "2022-08-11", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "How the Trump White House misled the world about its family separation policy", "question_index": 4, "text": "The point of separating families was deterrence. Like, we're going to make things so bad that no family will cross the border because it's going to be hell for them. We're going to make it that way for them. John Kelly, before he was in the Trump administration, was stationed at the border. And when Jeh Johnson was head of the Department of Homeland Security in the Obama administration, Kelly gave Jeh Johnson the advice, like, don't bother with deterrence. It's not going to work. There are so many problems that are - there's so much violence and gangs that are driving people across the border. Nothing you're going to do is going to scare them. They're going to come across. So is that one of the reasons why Kelly was determined to reject the family separation policy - because they thought deterrence is pointless?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. And that document is just one example of many records I found that show people within the government, within various federal agencies, raising red flags around the idea of a nationwide f"}
{"id": "1116917364", "date": "2022-08-11", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "How the Trump White House misled the world about its family separation policy", "question_index": 5, "text": "Your article is titled \"We Need To Take Away Children.\" That line comes from something that then-Attorney General Jeff Sessions said in a phone call to assistant DAs who were prosecuting people who had crossed illegally. Give us the context for that sentence in the Jeff Sessions phone call.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. So John Kelly was our highest-ranking military official overseeing the Northern Triangle, where most migrants were traveling from to the United States, prior to joining the Trump adminis"}
{"id": "1116917364", "date": "2022-08-11", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "How the Trump White House misled the world about its family separation policy", "question_index": 6, "text": "How did you learn about that phone call?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Jeff Sessions got a lot of blame during zero tolerance and even after. Again, when I'm interviewing officials who were at very high levels in DHS, for example, a lot of them basically made this arg"}
{"id": "1116917364", "date": "2022-08-11", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "How the Trump White House misled the world about its family separation policy", "question_index": 7, "text": "So, you know, you write that family separation wasn't a side effect of prosecuting parents who crossed the border illegally. It was the intent. And, in fact, some administration officials worked to keep families separated longer. Would you explain?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That phone call was actually documented by the Department of Justice's inspector general initially. And the quote comes from contemporaneous notes taken by several of the U.S. attorneys who were on th"}
{"id": "1116917364", "date": "2022-08-11", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "How the Trump White House misled the world about its family separation policy", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Caitlin Dickerson. She wrote The Atlantic magazine's new cover story, which is called \"We Need To Take Away Children: The Secret History Of The U.S. Government's Family-Separation Policy.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. So yet more evidence showing that the goal for those who were pushing for zero tolerance most harshly was not just merely prosecuting parents, but also separating them from their children for sig"}
{"id": "1116917364", "date": "2022-08-11", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "How the Trump White House misled the world about its family separation policy", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Caitlin Dickerson, who wrote The Atlantic magazine's new cover story, \"We Need to Take Away Children: The Secret History Of The U.S. Government's Family-Separation Policy.\" The policy, called zero tolerance, was created during the Trump administration, mandating that parents who crossed the southern border illegally with children be separated from their children until legal proceedings concluded. Let's talk about Stephen Miller. And Stephen Miller is a really hard-line, anti-immigration extremist. He was a speechwriter and an aide to President Trump and headed up efforts to crack down on immigration. And I think he really wanted to make crossing the border - you know, policies about crossing the border as draconian as possible. You say he hired people from the anti-immigrant fringes for his Washington staff. What are some of the ideas - in addition to family separation, what are some of the ideas that came out of his office?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. So yet more evidence showing that the goal for those who were pushing for zero tolerance most harshly was not just merely prosecuting parents, but also separating them from their children for sig"}
{"id": "1116917364", "date": "2022-08-11", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "How the Trump White House misled the world about its family separation policy", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, General John Kelly doesn't strike me as somebody who is fearful. How did he get around Kelly?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Stephen Miller came up with ideas that include Title 42, the ban imposed, actually, by the surgeon general in response to the coronavirus pandemic. Stephen Miller found that in federal statute and tri"}
{"id": "1116917364", "date": "2022-08-11", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "How the Trump White House misled the world about its family separation policy", "question_index": 11, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. And then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Caitlin Dickerson. And she wrote the really in-depth cover story in The Atlantic magazine, which is called \"We Need To Take Away Children: The Secret History Of The U.S. Government's Family-Separation Policy.\" We'll talk more after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So John Kelly was very frustrated with Stephen Miller from his earliest days in the Trump administration. And so Miller just started going around him. He would call into DHS, you know, high-ranking pe"}
{"id": "1116917364", "date": "2022-08-11", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "How the Trump White House misled the world about its family separation policy", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Caitlin Dickerson, who wrote The Atlantic magazine's new cover story \"We Need To Take Away Children: The Secret History Of The U.S. Government's Family-Separation Policy.\" This policy, called zero tolerance, was created during the Trump administration, mandating that parents who crossed the southern border illegally with their children be separated from their children until legal proceedings concluded and parents were either granted asylum or deported, a process that could take a very long time. Over 5,000 children were separated from their parents during the Trump administration. There were no records linking parents with children, so they couldn't find each other. Hundreds of children have not yet been reunited with their parents. Caitlin, when the family separation policy was being implemented, it sounds like no one who came up with the policy was thinking ahead about, how will the parents and children be reunited? And who will be keeping track of that? And it sounds like agencies who had to handle the consequences of this policy weren't very well-informed. They weren't given much advance notice. Can you talk about some of the things that happened before implementation that made it obvious that this was going to be a disaster?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So John Kelly was very frustrated with Stephen Miller from his earliest days in the Trump administration. And so Miller just started going around him. He would call into DHS, you know, high-ranking pe"}
{"id": "1116917364", "date": "2022-08-11", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "How the Trump White House misled the world about its family separation policy", "question_index": 13, "text": "I was going to say a database seems like the most obvious thing to have when you're separating parents and children.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So this administration stands out from any other I've looked at in depth in the way that members of the bureaucracy, subject matter experts who are responsible for the nuts and bolts of our government"}
{"id": "1116917364", "date": "2022-08-11", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "How the Trump White House misled the world about its family separation policy", "question_index": 14, "text": "You learned in the spring of 2018 that, although there was no official database that the government was keeping that would enable parents and children to find each other - that one individual in the Office of Refugee Resettlement, Jim De La Cruz, had been keeping a list of children separated from parents and was using that to track down children to try to reunify them. But he was keeping the list quiet, knowing it would be controversial. Tell us about that list and how you found out about it, how it was leaked to you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It does. And it's even more obvious when you take into account that DHS has a database for adults who are detained in federal custody. It's something that I've used in my reporting since I started cov"}
{"id": "1116917364", "date": "2022-08-11", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "How the Trump White House misled the world about its family separation policy", "question_index": 15, "text": "So it sounds like the more important goal to people involved with this family separation program at that time was to keep it a secret, as opposed to making sure there were safeguards to make sure parents and children could be reunited.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Jim De La Cruz was part of a group of federal officials who tried to come together to stop family separations from happening as soon as they heard the idea was proposed in early 2017. And then when"}
{"id": "1116917364", "date": "2022-08-11", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "How the Trump White House misled the world about its family separation policy", "question_index": 16, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. My guest is Caitlin Dickerson, who wrote The Atlantic magazine's new cover story, \"We Need To Take Away Children: The Secret History Of The U.S. Government's Family-Separation Policy.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. And, again, this stood out from my experience as a reporter. You know, usually, when you're working on a story that government officials - you know, regardless of the administration or p"}
{"id": "1116917364", "date": "2022-08-11", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "How the Trump White House misled the world about its family separation policy", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Caitlin Dickerson. She wrote The Atlantic magazine's new cover story, \"We Need To Take Away Children: The Secret History Of The U.S. Government's Family-Separation Policy.\" The policy, called zero tolerance, was created during the Trump administration mandating that parents who crossed the southern border illegally with children be separated from their children so the parents could be prosecuted criminally. A real turning point was in June of 2018, when ProPublica leaked an audio recording of separated children crying for their parents inside a government facility. And at that point, more than 4,000 children had been separated from their parents. We're going to play the audio that was leaked. But first, I want you to set it up for us because the audio - even if you speak Spanish, the audio isn't always that clear. So tell us what we're hearing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. And, again, this stood out from my experience as a reporter. You know, usually, when you're working on a story that government officials - you know, regardless of the administration or p"}
{"id": "1116917364", "date": "2022-08-11", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "How the Trump White House misled the world about its family separation policy", "question_index": 18, "text": "That's Customs and Border Protection.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "These are children being processed in a CBP facility. They've been..."}
{"id": "1116917364", "date": "2022-08-11", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "How the Trump White House misled the world about its family separation policy", "question_index": 19, "text": "So this is from June of 2018.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. Yes. They've recently been separated from their parents, and they're crying out for help. Some are saying, I want my mom, I want my dad. I want to go with my parent or I want to go with my "}
{"id": "1116917364", "date": "2022-08-11", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "How the Trump White House misled the world about its family separation policy", "question_index": 20, "text": "UNIDENTIFIED CHILD #1: (Crying, speaking Spanish). UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #1: (Speaking Spanish). UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #2: (Speaking Spanish). UNIDENTIFIED CHILD #1: (Crying, speaking Spanish). UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #2: (Speaking Spanish). UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #1: (Speaking Spanish). UNIDENTIFIED CHILD #2: (Speaking Spanish). UNIDENTIFIED CHILD #3: (Crying, speaking Spanish). UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #2: (Speaking Spanish). UNIDENTIFIED CHILD #3: (Speaking Spanish). UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #1: (Speaking Spanish). UNIDENTIFIED CHILD #3: (Crying, speaking Spanish). UNIDENTIFIED PERSON #1: (Speaking Spanish). UNIDENTIFIED CHILD #1: (Crying, speaking Spanish).", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. Yes. They've recently been separated from their parents, and they're crying out for help. Some are saying, I want my mom, I want my dad. I want to go with my parent or I want to go with my "}
{"id": "1116917364", "date": "2022-08-11", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "How the Trump White House misled the world about its family separation policy", "question_index": 21, "text": "It's painful to hear that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. Yes. They've recently been separated from their parents, and they're crying out for help. Some are saying, I want my mom, I want my dad. I want to go with my parent or I want to go with my "}
{"id": "1116917364", "date": "2022-08-11", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "How the Trump White House misled the world about its family separation policy", "question_index": 22, "text": "That was a turning point. In what way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is."}
{"id": "1116917364", "date": "2022-08-11", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "How the Trump White House misled the world about its family separation policy", "question_index": 23, "text": "So you write that that audio caused so much outrage that Republicans started worrying about losing the midterms.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think this audio was really significant for a couple of reasons. You know, at this point in 2018, you've been hearing the administration say over and over again, we do not have a family separation p"}
{"id": "1116917364", "date": "2022-08-11", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "How the Trump White House misled the world about its family separation policy", "question_index": 24, "text": "So after zero tolerance was officially ended, what was the policy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. Paul Ryan, who at the time was the Republican speaker of the House, actually said in a meeting with John Kelly, who at that point had been elevated to become President Trump's chief of s"}
{"id": "1116917364", "date": "2022-08-11", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "How the Trump White House misled the world about its family separation policy", "question_index": 25, "text": "And where are we in that process now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "After zero tolerance officially went away, the administration turned toward other harsh border enforcement policies to try to mitigate illegal immigration. So you may recall the migrant protection pro"}
{"id": "1116917364", "date": "2022-08-11", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "How the Trump White House misled the world about its family separation policy", "question_index": 26, "text": "You spoke to some parents earlier and more recently for this story. What did you learn directly from them about how they're doing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So to this day, there are hundreds of families who have not been officially reunited. The number is between 700 and a thousand, depending on whether you're talking to the ACLU and the federal governme"}
{"id": "1116917364", "date": "2022-08-11", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "How the Trump White House misled the world about its family separation policy", "question_index": 27, "text": "What has the Biden administration been doing both in terms of trying to reunite families that have not yet been reunited? And also, how have they changed policy about families crossing the border illegally?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What I hear from these families is that they've, in many ways, not really been able to move on. One father, Nazario Jacinto Carrillo, I interviewed him in 2018 when he was separated from his 5-year-ol"}
{"id": "1116917364", "date": "2022-08-11", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "How the Trump White House misled the world about its family separation policy", "question_index": 28, "text": "Let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Caitlin Dickerson. She wrote The Atlantic magazine's new cover story, which is called \"We Need To Take Away Children: The Secret History Of The U.S. Government's Family-Separation Policy.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the Biden administration has been unequivocal in its opposition to family separation. Of course, you heard President Biden, even while he was campaigning, talk about how he felt like this policy wa"}
{"id": "1116917364", "date": "2022-08-11", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "How the Trump White House misled the world about its family separation policy", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Caitlin Dickerson. She wrote The Atlantic magazine's new cover story, \"We Need To Take Away Children: The Secret History Of The U.S. Government's Family-Separation Policy.\" That policy, zero tolerance, was created during the Trump administration mandating that parents who crossed the southern border illegally with children be separated from their children so the parents could be prosecuted criminally. Your article ends with you trying to reach Stephen Miller, the anti-immigration hawk who really pushed through family separation. And you couldn't reach him for a comment. You finally reached him, and he said he had run. So you really didn't get to talk with him. And then you got an explanation from one of his friends about why he didn't have time to talk with you. Tell us what you heard.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the Biden administration has been unequivocal in its opposition to family separation. Of course, you heard President Biden, even while he was campaigning, talk about how he felt like this policy wa"}
{"id": "1116917364", "date": "2022-08-11", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "How the Trump White House misled the world about its family separation policy", "question_index": 30, "text": "You think that this story of the family separation policy and how it was implemented and the chaos that happened and how people signed off on it without really understanding what the consequences would be, you think that this should be studied by organizational psychologists and moral philosophers. Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I was struggling to get a hold of Stephen Miller as I reported this story, I heard from a close friend of theirs that, you know, since Miller and his wife, Katie, who'd worked for DHS and was one"}
{"id": "1116917364", "date": "2022-08-11", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "How the Trump White House misled the world about its family separation policy", "question_index": 31, "text": "Caitlin Dickerson, thank you so much for speaking with us. And thank you for this incredible piece of reporting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because it's no surprise that, you know, people like Stephen Miller or Jeff Sessions, you know, who made careers arguing for harsh enforcement policies, proposed zero tolerance and other policies like"}
{"id": "1116917364", "date": "2022-08-11", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "How the Trump White House misled the world about its family separation policy", "question_index": 32, "text": "Caitlin Dickerson's in-depth investigative article about the family separation policy is titled \"We Need To Take Away Children.\" It's the cover story of the new issue of The Atlantic. If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, like this week's interviews with actor Melanie Lynskey, or Washington Post columnist Dana Milbank, author of the new book \"The Destructionists: The Twenty-Five Year Crack-Up Of The Republican Party,\" or Paul Holes, the investigator who was instrumental in identifying the Golden State Killer and cracking many cold cases, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. And to hear what our producers have to say, check out our newsletter, which you can subscribe to via our website at freshair.npr.org.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "1116917364", "date": "2022-08-11", "guest": "Caitlin Dickerson", "title": "How the Trump White House misled the world about its family separation policy", "question_index": 33, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Therese Madden directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "1117082579", "date": "2022-08-12", "guest": "The Supremes", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Motown songwriter Lamont Dozier", "question_index": 0, "text": "In the intro, is that almost kind of, like, galloping horse drumbeat", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Now, if you feel that you can't go on because all of your hope is gone, and your life is filled with much confusion, until happiness is just an illusion, and your world around is crumbling a"}
{"id": "1117082579", "date": "2022-08-12", "guest": "The Supremes", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Motown songwriter Lamont Dozier", "question_index": 1, "text": "- was that the idea of one of you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Now, if you feel that you can't go on because all of your hope is gone, and your life is filled with much confusion, until happiness is just an illusion, and your world around is crumbling a"}
{"id": "1117082579", "date": "2022-08-12", "guest": "The Supremes", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Motown songwriter Lamont Dozier", "question_index": 2, "text": "Eddie Holland, you were the lyricist on this song. How did you come up with the reach out, I'll be their hook?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The feeling of it, you know - I think there was a broken tambourine. There was a tambourine without the little shakers on it. And we just thought - well, the feeling of the music was - it almost dicta"}
{"id": "1117082579", "date": "2022-08-12", "guest": "The Supremes", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Motown songwriter Lamont Dozier", "question_index": 3, "text": "So you wrote the lyric after it was partially produced?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm not sure. I think that was - Lamont had the idea. Often when Brian and Lamont would work together on the basic melodies in the earlier stages, sometimes, you know, one or two of us, you know, or t"}
{"id": "1117082579", "date": "2022-08-12", "guest": "The Supremes", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Motown songwriter Lamont Dozier", "question_index": 4, "text": "So that's interesting. So the song already had a feel to it. It had a sound before there was a lyric.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yes. When you say - yeah, I guess you could consider it partially produced. When the instrumentation was basically done, the rhythm of it, then that's when Brian would - because Brian was the en"}
{"id": "1117082579", "date": "2022-08-12", "guest": "The Supremes", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Motown songwriter Lamont Dozier", "question_index": 5, "text": "I just find that so interesting because for so many other songwriters, it's the melody and the lyric that come first. And then the productions conceptualize. Or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "'Cause we cut tracks first, you know, most of the time. It was done with tracks first, and then once we got the feeling, then we gave Eddie a melody to work from, so then he would know some idea about"}
{"id": "1117082579", "date": "2022-08-12", "guest": "The Supremes", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Motown songwriter Lamont Dozier", "question_index": 6, "text": "You - you're hearing all these instrumental hooks first.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, funny thing - we never knew that."}
{"id": "1117082579", "date": "2022-08-12", "guest": "The Supremes", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Motown songwriter Lamont Dozier", "question_index": 7, "text": "So tell us a little more about how you worked together as a songwriting and production team, how you divided up the responsibilities and what the process was like.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "1117082579", "date": "2022-08-12", "guest": "The Supremes", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Motown songwriter Lamont Dozier", "question_index": 8, "text": "At what point would you know what group was going to sing the song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it started off, I guess, with sitting at the piano. This is Lamont. Started off at the piano with coming up with an idea first or a feeling of sorts. And then once we established that, Brian and"}
{"id": "1117082579", "date": "2022-08-12", "guest": "The Supremes", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Motown songwriter Lamont Dozier", "question_index": 9, "text": "Can you think of an example like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this is Eddie Holland speaking. Well, pretty much, we directed our attentions as a rule towards a specific group. For example, if we were working on Supremes, we would write specifically for The"}
{"id": "1117082579", "date": "2022-08-12", "guest": "The Supremes", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Motown songwriter Lamont Dozier", "question_index": 10, "text": "My guests are the songwriting team of Brian and Eddie Holland and Lamont Dozier. Here's their song \"This Old Heart Of Mine,\" as recorded by the Isley Brothers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yes. I mean, the process of coming up with songs for The Supremes - there was a song called \"This Old Heart Of Mine\" that was later done on The Isley Brothers, you know. In the process of also w"}
{"id": "1117082579", "date": "2022-08-12", "guest": "The Supremes", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Motown songwriter Lamont Dozier", "question_index": 11, "text": "Let's hear another record. You did a lot of work with The Supremes. Some of The Supremes hits that you wrote and produced include \"Where Did Our Love Go,\" \"Baby Love,\" \"Come See About Me,\" \"Stop! In The Name Of Love,\" \"I Hear A Symphony,\" \"My World Is Empty Without You,\" Love Is Like An Itching In My Heart,\" \"Can't Hurry Love,\" You Keep Me Hanging On,\" etc., etc. So why don't we hear \"You Can't Hurry Love?\" Tell us about putting - like, creating the song and creating the record, and then we'll hear it.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2003 interview with the songwriting team of Holland-Dozier-Holland, brothers Brian and Eddie Holland and Lamont Dozier. They wrote dozens of Top 40 hits fo"}
{"id": "1117082579", "date": "2022-08-12", "guest": "The Supremes", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Motown songwriter Lamont Dozier", "question_index": 12, "text": "Oh, what is it? Come on.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The gospel of the gospel songs is - that would influence me. But to make it even clearer, what influenced me to be influenced by the gospel song was the melody and the beat of the song itself. The syn"}
{"id": "1117082579", "date": "2022-08-12", "guest": "The Supremes", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Motown songwriter Lamont Dozier", "question_index": 13, "text": "Oh, say it. Say it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm not going to say."}
{"id": "1117082579", "date": "2022-08-12", "guest": "The Supremes", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Motown songwriter Lamont Dozier", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, let's hear one of your many records that turned out great. This is The Supremes' \"You Can't Hurry Love.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, you know? And that was a must, you know, in the Black home in those days. My grandmother was a choir instructor. And I had to be there for choir rehearsals on Thursdays and then all day Sunday a"}
{"id": "1117082579", "date": "2022-08-12", "guest": "The Supremes", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Motown songwriter Lamont Dozier", "question_index": 15, "text": "How were you matched with the Supremes? How did the Supremes become one of your groups?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross. We're remembering Lamont Dozier, part of the songwriting team, Holland-Dozier-Holland, who helped define the Motown sound. Lamont Dozier die"}
{"id": "1117082579", "date": "2022-08-12", "guest": "The Supremes", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Motown songwriter Lamont Dozier", "question_index": 16, "text": "Which songs were they?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And Brian and I got into an argument. Which should be the next follow-up? Or what should be this follow-up? That's the only argument. All three of those songs were done that day on the next session."}
{"id": "1117082579", "date": "2022-08-12", "guest": "The Supremes", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Motown songwriter Lamont Dozier", "question_index": 17, "text": "Well, why don't we hear the song that kicked all of that off and hear the Supremes doing \"Where Did Our Love Go,\" written and produced by my guest, the team of Holland, Dozier and Holland.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, he's a real politician. I mean, that was the position that he took. But anyway..."}
{"id": "1117082579", "date": "2022-08-12", "guest": "The Supremes", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Motown songwriter Lamont Dozier", "question_index": 18, "text": "So many of your hit songs have catchphrase titles, like \"You Can't Hurry Love\" or \"Reach Out I'll Be There.\" \"Sugar Pie, Honey Bun.\" \"Nothing But Heartaches.\" \"You Keep Me Hangin' On.\" Eddie, you wrote a lot of the lyrics. Is there a reason why those phrases would come to you as song titles?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Baby, baby, baby don't leave me. Oh, please, don't leave me all by myself. I've got this burning, burning, yearning feeling inside me, oh, deep inside me. And it hurts so bad. You came into "}
{"id": "1117082579", "date": "2022-08-12", "guest": "The Supremes", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Motown songwriter Lamont Dozier", "question_index": 19, "text": "Wait. So did you have a girlfriend who said, you don't really love me; you just keep me hanging on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Would say to me, sometimes out of anger, sometimes out of whatever, you know? So a lot of that, but I could - you could hear something that had feeling. You could hear something that had meaning. And "}
{"id": "1117082579", "date": "2022-08-12", "guest": "The Supremes", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Motown songwriter Lamont Dozier", "question_index": 20, "text": "And you were taking notes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...To say the least. But yeah. Yeah. That was an argument that I had, you know, with someone that they said that to me. Yes."}
{"id": "1117082579", "date": "2022-08-12", "guest": "The Supremes", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Motown songwriter Lamont Dozier", "question_index": 21, "text": "Brian Holland, you were vice president for quality control at Motown. What did that mean?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2003 interview with the songwriting team of Holland-Dozier-Holland, brothers Brian and Eddie Holland and Lamont Dozier. They wrote dozens of Top-40 hits fo"}
{"id": "1117082579", "date": "2022-08-12", "guest": "The Supremes", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Motown songwriter Lamont Dozier", "question_index": 22, "text": "Not the greatest way of making friends. Did you get into a lot of fights with...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That meant that I would take the records - I mean, the records that - being mixed - I would take them and listen to them and see, did they have the quality to go out on the street? And if it was not t"}
{"id": "1117082579", "date": "2022-08-12", "guest": "The Supremes", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Motown songwriter Lamont Dozier", "question_index": 23, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "1117082579", "date": "2022-08-12", "guest": "The Supremes", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Motown songwriter Lamont Dozier", "question_index": 24, "text": "Now, did you have other ways of testing it? You know, were there meetings in which you played it for everybody else at Motown? Or were there dances that you could test a record before it was released commercially to see if it was infectious or not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, absolutely. I remember specifically, I got into - not a fight - you know what I mean? We got in a disagreement with a couple producers because, you know, I turned down whatever thing they though"}
{"id": "1117082579", "date": "2022-08-12", "guest": "The Supremes", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Motown songwriter Lamont Dozier", "question_index": 25, "text": "And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, this is Brian again, as you know. What had happened is that we had what they call a quality control meeting and - to listen to all the records that were scheduled to go out. And we would v"}
{"id": "1117082579", "date": "2022-08-12", "guest": "The Supremes", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Motown songwriter Lamont Dozier", "question_index": 26, "text": "Did you ever disagree with them and think, oh, what do you know anyways? You're just a kid. I'm a professional songwriter, and I know better.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And had the kids come in. I remember one summer we did that. We had an onslaught of songs. And I think Mickey Stevenson had sort of got some kids together off the street or whatever and brought the"}
{"id": "1117082579", "date": "2022-08-12", "guest": "The Supremes", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Motown songwriter Lamont Dozier", "question_index": 27, "text": "We have time just to end with one more recording. And I thought we'd play the Martha and the Vandellas hit \"Heat Wave,\" which you wrote and produced. Brian, is there a story behind the song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And they were both reliable because they got into the song, got into the feeling of the situation and the lyric and just the overall production. Then there were times when Berry would just overr"}
{"id": "1117082579", "date": "2022-08-12", "guest": "The Supremes", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Motown songwriter Lamont Dozier", "question_index": 28, "text": "What kind of editing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A lot of tape on the floor..."}
{"id": "1117082579", "date": "2022-08-12", "guest": "The Supremes", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Motown songwriter Lamont Dozier", "question_index": 29, "text": "Well, this is a very high-energy song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Meaning that it - a lot of wasted air, time or maybe - and then you only had, in those days, like, two minutes or 2 1/2 minutes long in those days. So you had to make sure that you hit all the hot spo"}
{"id": "1117082579", "date": "2022-08-12", "guest": "The Supremes", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Motown songwriter Lamont Dozier", "question_index": 30, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "1117082579", "date": "2022-08-12", "guest": "The Supremes", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Motown songwriter Lamont Dozier", "question_index": 31, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And a big hit for them."}
{"id": "1117082579", "date": "2022-08-12", "guest": "The Supremes", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Motown songwriter Lamont Dozier", "question_index": 32, "text": "Well, listen; congratulations on your BMI award. Thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And for us, too."}
{"id": "1117082579", "date": "2022-08-12", "guest": "The Supremes", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Motown songwriter Lamont Dozier", "question_index": 33, "text": "It was really fun. And thanks for all the great music you've given us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1116948823", "date": "2022-08-16", "guest": "Adam Schiff", "title": "Rep. Adam Schiff weighs in on the raid at Trump's Mar-a-Lago home", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I am Terry Gross. My guest, Congressman Adam Schiff, has been very busy the past few years investigating Donald Trump. Schiff is the chair of the House Intelligence Committee. Schiff was the lead manager of the first impeachment and Senate impeachment trial of then-President Trump. That was the impeachment focusing around the call with President Zelenskyy in which Trump asked for a favor in return for weapons to fight Russia's military occupation of part of Ukraine. Now Schiff is serving on the House Select Committee investigating January 6 and Trump's attempts to overturn the 2020 presidential election. After FBI agents with a search warrant seized confidential and top-secret documents from Mar-a-Lago last week, Schiff asked the intelligence community for a damage assessment and a briefing for Congress. Schiff has served as a Democratic congressman from California since 2001. He served on the Judiciary Committee from 2001 to 2011. His memoir has just been published in paperback with a new afterword. The book is titled \"Midnight In Washington: How We Almost Lost Our Democracy And Still Could.\" We recorded our interview yesterday morning. Congressman Schiff, welcome to FRESH AIR. In the afterword, which you wrote in May, you question whether the Justice Department is acting with sufficient determination and vigor to investigate Trump's efforts to subvert our democracy. Has the search warrant that, last week, enabled the FBI to remove top-secret, classified documents stored in Mar-a-Lago affected your thoughts on Garland and the DOJ's work moving forward?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1116948823", "date": "2022-08-16", "guest": "Adam Schiff", "title": "Rep. Adam Schiff weighs in on the raid at Trump's Mar-a-Lago home", "question_index": 1, "text": "Well, the Justice Department also recently seized the cell phone of Scott Perry, a Republican congressman from Pennsylvania, and he leads the far-right House Freedom Caucus. And that was seized in connection with the Justice Department's investigation of fake electors to overturn the 2020 election. So is that an optimistic sign to you that the Justice Department is moving forward in investigating the fake elector scheme?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it has affected it. I am more encouraged that the Justice Department is willing to do what it said it would do, which is follow the evidence where it leads. They certainly appear to be doing tha"}
{"id": "1116948823", "date": "2022-08-16", "guest": "Adam Schiff", "title": "Rep. Adam Schiff weighs in on the raid at Trump's Mar-a-Lago home", "question_index": 2, "text": "Do you think the Mar-a-Lago documents put Trump in legal jeopardy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think they're certainly investigating the fake elector scheme from what we can see publicly. And it is very significant that they took the step of seizing a phone of a member of Congress. What strik"}
{"id": "1116948823", "date": "2022-08-16", "guest": "Adam Schiff", "title": "Rep. Adam Schiff weighs in on the raid at Trump's Mar-a-Lago home", "question_index": 3, "text": "Is there any interaction between the Justice Department's investigation of Trump and the attempt to overturn the election and the January 6 Select Committee, their investigation, the investigation you're a part of? Like, your hearings are public, so the DOJ knows what you've been up to. It sounds like you don't really know what the DOJ has been up to. How do you hope that the January 6 investigation will inform the DOJ?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think they do. You know, anyone in the intelligence community or, frankly, outside of it that had top-secret documents in their hotel or their private residence - and, in particular, after federal a"}
{"id": "1116948823", "date": "2022-08-16", "guest": "Adam Schiff", "title": "Rep. Adam Schiff weighs in on the raid at Trump's Mar-a-Lago home", "question_index": 4, "text": "There's been violent rhetoric aimed at Attorney General Garland, the FBI and those who oppose Trump. And it's escalated to the point where it's being compared to the rhetoric before January 6. The FBI headquarters or the FBI office was attacked in Cincinnati. What are you hearing about violent rhetoric right now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, it's - a couple things. And this is now, I think, the second or third major investigation that I've been involved with where there have been contemporaneous investigations by the Justi"}
{"id": "1116948823", "date": "2022-08-16", "guest": "Adam Schiff", "title": "Rep. Adam Schiff weighs in on the raid at Trump's Mar-a-Lago home", "question_index": 5, "text": "You mention talk of civil war. How far does this go? Do you fear that there might actually be a civil war?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think this is such a destructive and dangerous turn for our country, that is the degree to which political violence has somehow become acceptable to more and more of the American people. It ca"}
{"id": "1116948823", "date": "2022-08-16", "guest": "Adam Schiff", "title": "Rep. Adam Schiff weighs in on the raid at Trump's Mar-a-Lago home", "question_index": 6, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Congressman Adam Schiff. His memoir, \"Midnight In Washington,\" has just been published in paperback. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that a civil war is extremely unlikely. But I am gravely concerned about certain scenarios and where they would lead. And probably the one that concerns me the most is 2024. In my view, "}
{"id": "1116948823", "date": "2022-08-16", "guest": "Adam Schiff", "title": "Rep. Adam Schiff weighs in on the raid at Trump's Mar-a-Lago home", "question_index": 7, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Congressman Adam Schiff, chair of the House Intelligence Committee. He was the lead manager of the first impeachment of President Trump and now serves on the House select committee investigating January 6 and attempts to overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election. His memoir, \"Midnight In Washington,\" has just been published in paperback with a new afterword. What are the things coming out of the January 6 committee investigation so far that you think could lead to criminal charges against Donald Trump?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that a civil war is extremely unlikely. But I am gravely concerned about certain scenarios and where they would lead. And probably the one that concerns me the most is 2024. In my view, "}
{"id": "1116948823", "date": "2022-08-16", "guest": "Adam Schiff", "title": "Rep. Adam Schiff weighs in on the raid at Trump's Mar-a-Lago home", "question_index": 8, "text": "Every time it looks like the committee is ready to wrap up, the January 6 committee, there's more witnesses that are coming forward or that you're calling. And so the investigation keeps continuing, which I imagine keeps pushing back the timeline for actually issuing the report. So what's your latest deadline now for issuing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To me, some of the most significant evidence has been evidence of the president's intent, of his involvement and his intent. And, you know, one of those I mentioned earlier, which is that meeting with"}
{"id": "1116948823", "date": "2022-08-16", "guest": "Adam Schiff", "title": "Rep. Adam Schiff weighs in on the raid at Trump's Mar-a-Lago home", "question_index": 9, "text": "You write that for three years before impeachment one, that Republicans used to express concerns to you in private about President Trump. What about now? Are Republicans still confessing in private, concerns about Trump that they won't say publicly?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, we'll certainly finish our work this session. You're right. The clock keeps - the timeline keeps slipping, and it keeps slipping because we still have this phenomenon where the more pe"}
{"id": "1116948823", "date": "2022-08-16", "guest": "Adam Schiff", "title": "Rep. Adam Schiff weighs in on the raid at Trump's Mar-a-Lago home", "question_index": 10, "text": "Have you ever tried one on one to talk a Republican colleague out of a conspiracy theory or to talk a Republican colleague out of the belief that Trump really won the 2020 election?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They are. And yes, you know, I mentioned in particular in the book how, you know, during the Russia investigation, passing a senior Republican, a committee chair, who in a hushed tone said, keep doing"}
{"id": "1116948823", "date": "2022-08-16", "guest": "Adam Schiff", "title": "Rep. Adam Schiff weighs in on the raid at Trump's Mar-a-Lago home", "question_index": 11, "text": "So you think they know that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I haven't, because for the most part, it's not necessary. They know the big lie is a big lie. You know, this is the terrible..."}
{"id": "1116948823", "date": "2022-08-16", "guest": "Adam Schiff", "title": "Rep. Adam Schiff weighs in on the raid at Trump's Mar-a-Lago home", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Congressman Adam Schiff. His memoir, \"Midnight In Washington,\" has just been published in paperback with a new afterword. We'll be right back after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, without a doubt, without a doubt. I mean, these are smart people. You know, you have some of the destructive performance artists, the Marjorie Taylor Greene's and others. But for the most part, th"}
{"id": "1116948823", "date": "2022-08-16", "guest": "Adam Schiff", "title": "Rep. Adam Schiff weighs in on the raid at Trump's Mar-a-Lago home", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday morning with Congressman Adam Schiff, chair of the House Intelligence Committee. He was the lead manager of the first impeachment of President Trump and now serves on the House select committee investigating January 6 and attempts to overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election. His memoir, \"Midnight In Washington,\" has just been published in paperback with a new afterword. What is it like for you to work with colleagues who you believe, you know, who are amplifying falsehoods or conspiracy theories, who you believe know better and that they don't necessarily believe these falsehoods and conspiracy theories? But you're working with them on a regular basis. They're your colleagues. What's that experience like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, without a doubt, without a doubt. I mean, these are smart people. You know, you have some of the destructive performance artists, the Marjorie Taylor Greene's and others. But for the most part, th"}
{"id": "1116948823", "date": "2022-08-16", "guest": "Adam Schiff", "title": "Rep. Adam Schiff weighs in on the raid at Trump's Mar-a-Lago home", "question_index": 14, "text": "It looks like the Christian nationalism movement is growing. You know, Doug Mastriano, who's the Republican candidate for governor in Pennsylvania, is a Christian nationalist. There are other candidates and people in office who are - and I'm - oh, Viktor Orban, who, you know, is anti-Semitic, was invited to speak at CPAC, the conservative conference over the summer. And an earlier CPAC conference was held in Hungary. And I'm wondering - I mean, you're Jewish. You don't have to be Jewish to think that Christian nationalism that says that we are a Christian country - you don't have to be Jewish to think that that is a very narrow interpretation of who we are as a country. We're supposed to be a diverse country. We are a diverse country. But - so I'm wondering what you think about the growing Christian nationalist movement and if that's affecting you as somebody who is targeted by extremists. I imagine you're also targeted for being Jewish.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I have to say it has been a tragic epiphany for me over the last five or six years to see what many of my colleagues are made of. And I had thought more highly of them. And it was a ru"}
{"id": "1116948823", "date": "2022-08-16", "guest": "Adam Schiff", "title": "Rep. Adam Schiff weighs in on the raid at Trump's Mar-a-Lago home", "question_index": 15, "text": "Your memoir's just been published in paperback and in the new afterword, which was written in May, you write about having just recently returned from a meeting with Ukrainian President Zelenskyy about how the war was going. And of course, while you were there speaking to him, you thought about the first impeachment, which focused on Trump's call in which he basically asks for a favor in return for American money and weapons to help Ukraine fight the war against the Russians. Well, obviously, that call took on new meaning after this current war with Russia, after Russia invaded Ukraine, as opposed to just an incursion into part of Ukraine, which had already started back in, I think, 2016. Did you consider talking with President Zelenskyy about that call and about the impeachment? Did you talk to him about it? And did you entertain the idea of talking to him about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, there is a lot of anti-Semitic hate, particularly online, that I'm subjected to, but there's many others, as well. And yes, you know, the rise of the Viktor Orbans, the demonization of peopl"}
{"id": "1116948823", "date": "2022-08-16", "guest": "Adam Schiff", "title": "Rep. Adam Schiff weighs in on the raid at Trump's Mar-a-Lago home", "question_index": 16, "text": "You know, I think a lot about how during the first impeachment, Ukraine wasn't on the minds of a lot of Americans. And a lot of people probably couldn't even have told you where it was or what its relationship to Russia was. And ever since Russia invaded, you know, Ukraine and started, you know, bombing Ukraine - and so many displaced people and killed people, etc. - Ukraine has been on the minds of Americans. It's such an interesting contrast. Do you think about that a lot?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I did not talk to him about it. And yes, I would have loved to have talked to him about it. You know, we had, you know, much more pressing matters. We met with him for about 3 hours, and it "}
{"id": "1116948823", "date": "2022-08-16", "guest": "Adam Schiff", "title": "Rep. Adam Schiff weighs in on the raid at Trump's Mar-a-Lago home", "question_index": 17, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Congressman Adam Schiff. His memoir, \"Midnight In Washington\" has just been published in paperback. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I do, absolutely, and wish the public had a greater understanding of the importance of Ukraine and the threat from Russia at the time of that impeachment to see how dangerous Donald Trump's action"}
{"id": "1116948823", "date": "2022-08-16", "guest": "Adam Schiff", "title": "Rep. Adam Schiff weighs in on the raid at Trump's Mar-a-Lago home", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday morning with Congressman Adam Schiff, chair of the House Intelligence Committee. He was the lead manager of the first impeachment of President Trump and now serves on the House Select Committee investigating January 6 and attempts to overturn the results of the 2020 presidential election. So one of the things you describe in the book is learning how to gavel so that you really have control because there had been recent instances where the person gaveling the committee had lost control and it was a real food fight. So tell us what you learned about how to gavel with command and authority.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I do, absolutely, and wish the public had a greater understanding of the importance of Ukraine and the threat from Russia at the time of that impeachment to see how dangerous Donald Trump's action"}
{"id": "1116948823", "date": "2022-08-16", "guest": "Adam Schiff", "title": "Rep. Adam Schiff weighs in on the raid at Trump's Mar-a-Lago home", "question_index": 19, "text": "So give us a tip of how to gavel effectively and prevent out-of-order outbursts.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, one of the big contrasts between the Ukraine investigation and our January 6 hearings is that we knew we were going to be facing disruptions by the Republicans during our hearings, an "}
{"id": "1116948823", "date": "2022-08-16", "guest": "Adam Schiff", "title": "Rep. Adam Schiff weighs in on the raid at Trump's Mar-a-Lago home", "question_index": 20, "text": "So you were the lead manager in impeachment one, impeaching President Trump. And he was impeached in the House for abuse of power and obstruction of Congress. And then you were the lead manager in the Senate trial, which did not convict him. In your book, you describe trying to come up with a strategy that would help convince Republican senators to convict Trump and remove him from office. And - because you felt that they knew that he'd done something wrong, but they weren't willing to actually convict and remove him from office. So I want to play an excerpt of your concluding speech to the Senate. And after we hear this, we'll talk about what you intended to do when you were saying this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I think how you use the gavel in the beginning of the hearing is the most important because if you can shut down efforts to obstruct in the beginning, then you'll shut them down indefi"}
{"id": "1116948823", "date": "2022-08-16", "guest": "Adam Schiff", "title": "Rep. Adam Schiff weighs in on the raid at Trump's Mar-a-Lago home", "question_index": 21, "text": "So Adam Schiff, when you said that he'd compromise his elections and will do so again, were you expecting an insurrection?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He has compromised our elections. And he will do so again. You will not change him. You cannot constrain him. He is who he is. Truth matters little to him. What's right matters even less. And decency "}
{"id": "1116948823", "date": "2022-08-16", "guest": "Adam Schiff", "title": "Rep. Adam Schiff weighs in on the raid at Trump's Mar-a-Lago home", "question_index": 22, "text": "Let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Congressman Adam Schiff. His memoir, \"Midnight In Washington,\" has just been published in paperback. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was not expecting an insurrection. I didn't have that kind of clairvoyance. But saying what I did really didn't require much clairvoyance at all. It was very apparent who Donald Trump was at that po"}
{"id": "1116948823", "date": "2022-08-16", "guest": "Adam Schiff", "title": "Rep. Adam Schiff weighs in on the raid at Trump's Mar-a-Lago home", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday morning with Congressman Adam Schiff, chair of the House Intelligence Committee. His memoir, \"Midnight In Washington,\" has just been published in paperback. Do you watch Fox News and see how people are vilifying you? Or do you leave that for others to report to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was not expecting an insurrection. I didn't have that kind of clairvoyance. But saying what I did really didn't require much clairvoyance at all. It was very apparent who Donald Trump was at that po"}
{"id": "1116948823", "date": "2022-08-16", "guest": "Adam Schiff", "title": "Rep. Adam Schiff weighs in on the raid at Trump's Mar-a-Lago home", "question_index": 24, "text": "It seems like now if you're entering politics or if you're involved with overseeing elections, that you have to make a calculation not only about your own safety but the safety of your family. In your case, like, your children are grown. You live with your wife. You're not home all the time. You were worried about your wife. She was worried about her safety. Can you talk about making that calculation that knowing if you stick your neck out and become, you know, lead manager of impeachment and then serve on the January 6 committee, that there are going to be really serious threats against you and that that might affect your family, too, that they might be in jeopardy, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That is the unfortunate task of my staff. So they will get clips of the attacks on me. And they will send them to me - and not all of them because they'd be sending them to me all the time. I used to "}
{"id": "1116948823", "date": "2022-08-16", "guest": "Adam Schiff", "title": "Rep. Adam Schiff weighs in on the raid at Trump's Mar-a-Lago home", "question_index": 25, "text": "Congressman Schiff, thank you so much for talking with us. I really appreciate it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, it's certainly nothing I contemplated before I ran for office. None of this is anything I would have contemplated years ago. And, you know, over the years, we would - and, you know, ea"}
{"id": "1116948823", "date": "2022-08-16", "guest": "Adam Schiff", "title": "Rep. Adam Schiff weighs in on the raid at Trump's Mar-a-Lago home", "question_index": 26, "text": "My interview with Congressman Adam Schiff was recorded yesterday morning. His memoir, \"Midnight In Washington,\" has just been published in paperback. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be Beth Macy, author of the book \"Dopesick.\" She'll talk about citizen volunteers working to save lives and heal spirits in rural communities ravaged by the opioid epidemic. And we'll meet Michelle Mathis, co-founder of an organization doing that work. Macy has written a new book called \"Raising Lazarus.\" I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My pleasure. Thank you."}
{"id": "1116948823", "date": "2022-08-16", "guest": "Adam Schiff", "title": "Rep. Adam Schiff weighs in on the raid at Trump's Mar-a-Lago home", "question_index": 27, "text": "Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My pleasure. Thank you."}
{"id": "1117171029", "date": "2022-08-18", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "How the hard-right turn in the Arizona GOP is an anti-democracy experiment", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. In his article, \"The Arizona Republican Party's Anti-Democracy Experiment,\" my guest, Robert Draper, writes that Arizona first turned against the establishment. Now, it's set its sights on democracy - the principles, the process and even the word itself. He's been following Arizona state politics for the past year and watched as election deniers and conspiracy theorists beat their opponents in key Republican primary races, including secretary of state, the position that oversees elections. Draper has been covering conservative politics for about 20 years and is the author of the books \"To Start A War: How The Bush Administration Took America Into Iraq,\" \"When The Tea Party Came To Town,\" and \"Dead Certain: The Presidency Of George W Bush.\" His next book, \"Weapons Of Mass Delusion: When The Republican Party Lost Its Mind,\" will be published in October. His new article about the Arizona Republican Party's swing to the far right is published in The New York Times Magazine and is already on the Times' website. We recorded our interview yesterday. Robert Draper, welcome back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In this interview, Terry Gross incorrectly says that Russia is a communist country. An earlier correction note mistakenly said Russian President Vladimir Putin was the head of the KGB during the count"}
{"id": "1117171029", "date": "2022-08-18", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "How the hard-right turn in the Arizona GOP is an anti-democracy experiment", "question_index": 1, "text": "Why did you decide to make Arizona your focus when looking at how the Republican Party has been swinging to the right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me on, Terry."}
{"id": "1117171029", "date": "2022-08-18", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "How the hard-right turn in the Arizona GOP is an anti-democracy experiment", "question_index": 2, "text": "Did most of the primary winners this month support overturning the election?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, for a couple of reasons. Arizona was the first state to be called by Fox News as a swing state against Trump. And there was a lot of outrage that ensued in that state. The first so-called stop t"}
{"id": "1117171029", "date": "2022-08-18", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "How the hard-right turn in the Arizona GOP is an anti-democracy experiment", "question_index": 3, "text": "Yeah. And secretary of state oversees the election, so he'd have a lot of power when it comes to the next election if he wins secretary of state. He had a pretty active role in the attempt to overturn the election results in Arizona. And he was part of the scheme to have a fake slate of electors. Tell us about his role.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Uniformly, they did. And, in fact, anyone who did not was defeated. It's not simply that they said, yes, the election was stolen. They made it central to their campaign platform. Of course, Exhibit A "}
{"id": "1117171029", "date": "2022-08-18", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "How the hard-right turn in the Arizona GOP is an anti-democracy experiment", "question_index": 4, "text": "And the Oath Keepers, that's a militia group, and its leader, Stewart Rhodes, who is one of the people who have been indicted for conspiracy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what Finchem principally did or what he's especially known for is that after the early post-election lawsuits in Arizona failed - and there were three or four of them - then Finchem, insistent t"}
{"id": "1117171029", "date": "2022-08-18", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "How the hard-right turn in the Arizona GOP is an anti-democracy experiment", "question_index": 5, "text": "So a couple of weeks after Finchem and Rudy Giuliani did their presentation about how the election was fraudulent and Trump really won two weeks after that, he became one of the - can I say one of the official false electors?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. The Oath Keepers are a paramilitary group composed of mainly former law enforcement officers, continually - heavily armed. A number of them showed up at the Capitol. And they have been c"}
{"id": "1117171029", "date": "2022-08-18", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "How the hard-right turn in the Arizona GOP is an anti-democracy experiment", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. The Oath Keepers are a paramilitary group composed of mainly former law enforcement officers, continually - heavily armed. A number of them showed up at the Capitol. And they have been c"}
{"id": "1117171029", "date": "2022-08-18", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "How the hard-right turn in the Arizona GOP is an anti-democracy experiment", "question_index": 7, "text": "So describe what happened. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, phony elector."}
{"id": "1117171029", "date": "2022-08-18", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "How the hard-right turn in the Arizona GOP is an anti-democracy experiment", "question_index": 8, "text": "And there's somebody else who won the primary this month in Arizona, and that's Jake Hoffman. He's on the Arizona state legislature. He was also one of the fake electors. And now he's vice chair of the State House Committee on Government and Elections. And he won the primary for state Senate. So tell us about him and his role in his attempt to overturn the election.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Well, what happened was that in the middle of December, after all of the election suits had failed, a group of people headed by the state Republican Party chair, Kelli Ward, essentially appointe"}
{"id": "1117171029", "date": "2022-08-18", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "How the hard-right turn in the Arizona GOP is an anti-democracy experiment", "question_index": 9, "text": "And you mentioned his disinformation campaigns. Apparently, Russian trolls from the Internet Research Agency retweeted a lot of the social media that he put out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so Jake Hoffman presents an unusual case because he was involved in multiple ways in efforts to overturn the election. But even more broadly to churn out disinformation, he was, as you were refe"}
{"id": "1117171029", "date": "2022-08-18", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "How the hard-right turn in the Arizona GOP is an anti-democracy experiment", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Robert Draper. His new article in The New York Times Sunday magazine is titled \"The Arizona Republican Party's Anti-Democracy Experiment.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's correct. The Senate Select Committee on Intelligence did a study of Russia and disinformation. And a curious entry in that is Charlie Kirk's Arizona-based Turning Point USA and how the IRA, as "}
{"id": "1117171029", "date": "2022-08-18", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "How the hard-right turn in the Arizona GOP is an anti-democracy experiment", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Robert Draper. His article, \"The Arizona Republican Party's Anti-Democracy Experiment,\" is how the Republican Party in Arizona has swung to the far right, moved away from the Republican establishment and has won most of the primaries in the Republican primary earlier this month. So of all the people who won in the Arizona Republican primary, they - you said they all believe that the election was really fraudulent and that Trump should have been reinstalled as president. What are some of the other beliefs that they share?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's correct. The Senate Select Committee on Intelligence did a study of Russia and disinformation. And a curious entry in that is Charlie Kirk's Arizona-based Turning Point USA and how the IRA, as "}
{"id": "1117171029", "date": "2022-08-18", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "How the hard-right turn in the Arizona GOP is an anti-democracy experiment", "question_index": 12, "text": "Yeah, I mean, Joe McCarthy was the most famous of all of the, you know, communist hunters during the communist witch hunts. And he would smear people who he alleged were communists. They'd be blacklisted. They'd lose their career. They'd lose their income. They'd become outcasts in some circles. And, you know, a lot of people's lives were ruined...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They share an aversion, to say the least, towards mask mandates, towards vaccines, a suspicion bordering on paranoia and accusatory rhetoric relating to the vaccines themselves and whether they're doi"}
{"id": "1117171029", "date": "2022-08-18", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "How the hard-right turn in the Arizona GOP is an anti-democracy experiment", "question_index": 13, "text": "...Because of that. So to think that, oh, yeah, he should really be the president now - which is what one of his - one of the people you spoke to said - is just really shocking to me. But the other thing I really don't understand is, you know, communism in America doesn't seem to me like a particularly real threat. Who supports communism in America?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Yeah, that's right."}
{"id": "1117171029", "date": "2022-08-18", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "How the hard-right turn in the Arizona GOP is an anti-democracy experiment", "question_index": 14, "text": "So, like, a really ironic thing about this fight against communism that the far right is doing now is that a communist country, Russia, has been retweeting social media from the far right. So they're, in their own way, almost aligned with Putin. So it's - don't you think it's strange that they're the ones who are, you know, decrying communist infiltration of our country?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. I mean, to me, a rather dispiriting phenomenon that I had not expected to encounter until I started spending all this time in Arizona was to go to these grassroots events and to hear indiv"}
{"id": "1117171029", "date": "2022-08-18", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "How the hard-right turn in the Arizona GOP is an anti-democracy experiment", "question_index": 15, "text": "Let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Robert Draper, and his new article in The New York Times magazine is titled \"The Arizona Republican Party's Anti-Democracy Experiment.\" We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yeah. No, it's certainly paradoxical. It's also paradoxical that this, you know, very rock-ribbed conservative Republican Party in the state of Arizona is so prone to Russia disinformation. And I"}
{"id": "1117171029", "date": "2022-08-18", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "How the hard-right turn in the Arizona GOP is an anti-democracy experiment", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Robert Draper. His article \"The Arizona Republican Party's Anti-Democracy Experiment,\" about how Arizona state politics have moved to the far-right in the Republican Party, that's published in the New York Times Magazine and is already on the New York Times' website. Draper's next book will be titled \"Weapons Of Mass Delusion: When The Republican Party Lost Its Mind.\" That will be published in October. Robert, Arizona is a swing state. And that makes what happens in Arizona super important. But there's, like, swings in two directions at the same time in Arizona. You've got the Republican Party moving to the far-right. At the same time, you have a lot of people from California moving to Arizona. And you have two Democratic. U.S. senators from Arizona. So can you talk about those simultaneously opposite directions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yeah. No, it's certainly paradoxical. It's also paradoxical that this, you know, very rock-ribbed conservative Republican Party in the state of Arizona is so prone to Russia disinformation. And I"}
{"id": "1117171029", "date": "2022-08-18", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "How the hard-right turn in the Arizona GOP is an anti-democracy experiment", "question_index": 17, "text": "So do you think that's likely to hurt the Republican's chances in Arizona in the state elections?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. I mean, Arizona, as you mentioned, Terry, is a state that because of its low taxes, because it's, you know, sunny, to say the least, has attracted a lot of out-of-state visitors. And in particul"}
{"id": "1117171029", "date": "2022-08-18", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "How the hard-right turn in the Arizona GOP is an anti-democracy experiment", "question_index": 18, "text": "What's your understanding of how the far-right came to take over the Republican Party in Arizona? Was it a part of a larger Republican strategy that was well-funded by the RNC? Was it, like, more of an internal movement in Arizona, partly from the actual grassroots?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We will see. I mean, that is the million-dollar question this November, because the headwinds facing the Democrats are considerable. Mark Kelly, the U.S. senator, is up for reelection. And he is certa"}
{"id": "1117171029", "date": "2022-08-18", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "How the hard-right turn in the Arizona GOP is an anti-democracy experiment", "question_index": 19, "text": "Let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Robert Draper. He's been covering conservative politics for about 20 years. His new article in The New York Times magazine is titled \"The Arizona Republican Party's Anti-Democracy Experiment.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so there was some funding done by right-wing organizations that were homegrown, that reside in Arizona. But a lot of it, Terry, was also complacency on the part of the establishment. And they ha"}
{"id": "1117171029", "date": "2022-08-18", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "How the hard-right turn in the Arizona GOP is an anti-democracy experiment", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Robert Draper. His new article in The New York Times Magazine is titled \"The Arizona Republican Party's Anti-Democracy Experiment.\" It's about the Republican Party in Arizona and how it swung far to the right. And, of course, Arizona is a swing state. Draper's next book is \"Weapons Of Mass Delusion: When The Republican Party Lost Its Mind.\" And that will be published in October. I want to get back to Kari Lake, who won the primary for governor in Arizona this month. And she's a really interesting case in the sense that she was on the Phoenix Fox affiliate for over 20 years. So she was, you know, a well-known figure. And when Obama was running in 2008, she supported him. So - but now she's saying that Fauci should be arrested for COVID-related offenses. She's advocated putting cameras in classrooms, so parents kind of know what kids are being taught so they can object if they want to. In June, she said, they kicked God out of schools and welcomed the drag queens. They took down our flag and replaced it with a rainbow. They seek to disarm Americans and militarize our enemies. Let's bring back the basics - gods, guns and glory. So she won the Republican gubernatorial primary in Arizona. How did she move from supporting Obama in 2008 to being so far on the right now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so there was some funding done by right-wing organizations that were homegrown, that reside in Arizona. But a lot of it, Terry, was also complacency on the part of the establishment. And they ha"}
{"id": "1117171029", "date": "2022-08-18", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "How the hard-right turn in the Arizona GOP is an anti-democracy experiment", "question_index": 21, "text": "In a speech on the eve of the primary, she said, this is a battle between freedom and tyranny, between authoritarianism and liberty. That could be - that could have been in the speech of any Democrat.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Well, more broadly, I mean, she was a - you know, she was a person who sort of espoused a a liberal ideology when she was on Fox, at least for several years. You mentioned the phrase of like th"}
{"id": "1117171029", "date": "2022-08-18", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "How the hard-right turn in the Arizona GOP is an anti-democracy experiment", "question_index": 22, "text": "But they mean different things.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. No, that's right."}
{"id": "1117171029", "date": "2022-08-18", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "How the hard-right turn in the Arizona GOP is an anti-democracy experiment", "question_index": 23, "text": "Exactly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They do mean different things. And then - but then she added something else - that Democrats tend not to say - for whatever else, the flaws of Democrats - which is between good and evil."}
{"id": "1117171029", "date": "2022-08-18", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "How the hard-right turn in the Arizona GOP is an anti-democracy experiment", "question_index": 24, "text": "Let's talk about Wendy Rogers, who won the primary for state senator. And you describe her as perhaps the most notorious Arizona Republican who was on the primary ballot. What made her notorious?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And this is a rather animating feature of the Republican Party now. And it's that the left, the Democratic Party, the left is not so much, you know, foolish, wrong-headed, insincere, hypocritical, wha"}
{"id": "1117171029", "date": "2022-08-18", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "How the hard-right turn in the Arizona GOP is an anti-democracy experiment", "question_index": 25, "text": "Let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Robert Draper, and his article, \"The Arizona Republican Party's Anti-Democracy Experiment,\" is published in The New York Times Magazine. The article is already on the website. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Rogers spoke at the white nationalist group America First PAC, AFPAC, headed by Nicholas Fuentes, this past February. And in her speech, she indicated that people who are unpatriotic, people who she d"}
{"id": "1117171029", "date": "2022-08-18", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "How the hard-right turn in the Arizona GOP is an anti-democracy experiment", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Robert Draper. His article, \"The Arizona Republican Party's Anti-Democracy Experiment,\" about the party's move to the far right in Arizona, is published in The New York Times Magazine and is on the website. So when we look ahead to November, Kelli Ward is now the chair of the Republican Party in Arizona, and she's an election denier. Mark Finchem is the Republican candidate for secretary of state, which oversees the election. If he won and she remains the head of the Republican Party in Arizona, what are the possible ways that could shape the way the election is conducted and what the outcome is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Rogers spoke at the white nationalist group America First PAC, AFPAC, headed by Nicholas Fuentes, this past February. And in her speech, she indicated that people who are unpatriotic, people who she d"}
{"id": "1117171029", "date": "2022-08-18", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "How the hard-right turn in the Arizona GOP is an anti-democracy experiment", "question_index": 27, "text": "We talked earlier about how the Republican establishment lost power in Arizona, and the far right of the party basically took over. And I'm wondering if you think that the Republican Party created the far right and its power in the sense that it used scare tactics - it used fear of gay people and of immigration, of changing demographics - to rally the base and bring out the vote. But that base became more and more extreme, and you could argue it became more extreme through all the fear that was being fed to them. So do you think that the party is partially responsible for its own loss of power - you know, the establishment for its own loss of power in Arizona?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. So the secretary - the current secretary of state, a Democrat, Katie Hobbs, you know, told us that there is no statutory ability of the secretary of state to somehow change the outcome, to inval"}
{"id": "1117171029", "date": "2022-08-18", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "How the hard-right turn in the Arizona GOP is an anti-democracy experiment", "question_index": 28, "text": "Robert Draper, thank you so much for your reporting and for this interview. I appreciate it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Without question. And I would also say that in that sense, Terry, Arizona operates as a microcosm of the national Republican Party and its relationship with Donald Trump. The notion that Trump hijacke"}
{"id": "1117171029", "date": "2022-08-18", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "How the hard-right turn in the Arizona GOP is an anti-democracy experiment", "question_index": 29, "text": "Robert Draper's article \"The Arizona Republican Party's Anti-Democracy Experiment\" is in The New York Times magazine. He has a new book that will be published in October called \"Weapons Of Mass Delusion: When The Republican Party Lost Its Mind.\" If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed - like this week's interviews with Congressman Adam Schiff, or Robin Thede, the creator and one of the stars of \"A Black Lady Sketch Show,\" or Beth Macy, author of \"Dopesick\" and a new book about the work of citizens who've made it their business to help those struggling with addiction - check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. And if you want to read what our producers have to say, check out our newsletter, which you can subscribe to via our website, freshair.npr.org.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's my pleasure, Terry."}
{"id": "1117171029", "date": "2022-08-18", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "How the hard-right turn in the Arizona GOP is an anti-democracy experiment", "question_index": 30, "text": "FRESH AIR'S executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's my pleasure, Terry."}
{"id": "1117171280", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Anne Heche", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers actor Anne Heche", "question_index": 0, "text": "What were you brought up as strictly as a fundamentalist, and if so, did that affect the kind of popular culture you were exposed to, the movies you could watch, the TV shows, records?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Anne Heche also starred in such TV series as \"Hung,\" and played recurring characters on \"Nip/Tuck\" and \"Ally McBeal.\" In the late 1990s. Heche began a public same-sex relationship with Ellen DeGeneres"}
{"id": "1117171280", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Anne Heche", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers actor Anne Heche", "question_index": 1, "text": "Now, I want to ask you, your father was an itinerant fundamentalist choir director. Would you describe what he did exactly and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I couldn't watch movie or TV, none of it, None of it. I couldn't watch any of it. No. Books were not pushed in our direction either. There was - yes, it was a very limited scope."}
{"id": "1117171280", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Anne Heche", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers actor Anne Heche", "question_index": 2, "text": "Yeah, we'll will get to the other things. But what did he do as the choir director and why did it entail traveling around a lot?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1117171280", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Anne Heche", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers actor Anne Heche", "question_index": 3, "text": "Why was the family always in debt?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He sang with flair. Oh, the traveling didn't have anything to do with being in church. The traveling had to do with our financial circumstances and running away from our debt. The two kind of tried to"}
{"id": "1117171280", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Anne Heche", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers actor Anne Heche", "question_index": 4, "text": "So your father was a choir director who traveled a lot because he was living this secret life as a homosexual.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because he didn't have a job other than being a choir director. He just couldn't seem to settle down into a normal job. Which, of course, we found out later, and as I understand it now, was because he"}
{"id": "1117171280", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Anne Heche", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers actor Anne Heche", "question_index": 5, "text": "How did you find out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1117171280", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Anne Heche", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers actor Anne Heche", "question_index": 6, "text": "You were - what? - you say 12 when your father died...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was dying of AIDS in '83. It was still not named anything yet, right? At that time, it was the gay disease. It was just starting to get known as AIDS. And there were starting to be articles in news"}
{"id": "1117171280", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Anne Heche", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers actor Anne Heche", "question_index": 7, "text": "...Thirteen - when you realized that he had a secret life and that his secret life contradicted his own religious beliefs. Did it affect your religious beliefs? I don't know how strongly you identified as a Christian at the time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was 13."}
{"id": "1117171280", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Anne Heche", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers actor Anne Heche", "question_index": 8, "text": "So you were in dinner theater from the age of like 12 or 13 on to help earn a living for the family. It must have been a little strange for you in the sense that, during the early years of your life, seeing movies or TV shows was considered bad, you know, sinful maybe. And then suddenly, you're in dinner theater performing, and that's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was a very big questioner of religion, even though I was a good girl. And so I did what I was told and believed what I was told until this future time I knew, and I would be able to explore my own a"}
{"id": "1117171280", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Anne Heche", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers actor Anne Heche", "question_index": 9, "text": "...Good because you're supporting the family.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know."}
{"id": "1117171280", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Anne Heche", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers actor Anne Heche", "question_index": 10, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Things that will happen when you need money."}
{"id": "1117171280", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Anne Heche", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers actor Anne Heche", "question_index": 11, "text": "So when you were in dinner theater - I think it was when you were in high school - you were offered a role on an afternoon soap.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Point of view that changes very quickly when on the streets. It - yeah. I mean, things had to change. There was - my father's death and his split life was a huge wakeup call to all of us. I mean, ther"}
{"id": "1117171280", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Anne Heche", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers actor Anne Heche", "question_index": 12, "text": "Didn't accept it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, right."}
{"id": "1117171280", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Anne Heche", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers actor Anne Heche", "question_index": 13, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, when I was in 10th grade, I didn't accept it just 'cause I didn't want to have to move again and move my mom again, and we were just getting settled, and, you know, tears were stopping being, you "}
{"id": "1117171280", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Anne Heche", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers actor Anne Heche", "question_index": 14, "text": "So after high school, you went to New York and did - I think it was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But it was good money."}
{"id": "1117171280", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Anne Heche", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers actor Anne Heche", "question_index": 15, "text": "And it was - what? - \"Another World\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The day after I graduated, yeah."}
{"id": "1117171280", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Anne Heche", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers actor Anne Heche", "question_index": 16, "text": "You played twins. So what was the difference between each of the two twins?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Another World.\" I played twins on \"Another World\" for four years."}
{"id": "1117171280", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Anne Heche", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers actor Anne Heche", "question_index": 17, "text": "Did you relate to either of these characters?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1117171280", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Anne Heche", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers actor Anne Heche", "question_index": 18, "text": "Did you get paid double because you had two parts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. Of course, I put myself into them. I mean, the greatest thing about a soap opera is that you get to be anything. As long as you say your lines, you can be anything. So I created these, you know"}
{"id": "1117171280", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Anne Heche", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers actor Anne Heche", "question_index": 19, "text": "Did you go to college?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", only when I could negotiate. They got me real cheap when I was out of high school."}
{"id": "1117171280", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Anne Heche", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers actor Anne Heche", "question_index": 20, "text": "Do you regret that at all? Do you feel you missed something? Or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't. No, those were my college years on the soap opera."}
{"id": "1117171280", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Anne Heche", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers actor Anne Heche", "question_index": 21, "text": "One of your breakthrough film roles was in \"Walking And Talking.\" You and Catherine Keener starred as best friends.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview from 2000 with actress Anne Heche. She died Sunday after injuries sustained in a car crash. She was 53 years old."}
{"id": "1117171280", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Anne Heche", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers actor Anne Heche", "question_index": 22, "text": "Then your relationship changes after you get engaged, and she doesn't even have a boyfriend.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yeah."}
{"id": "1117171280", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Anne Heche", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers actor Anne Heche", "question_index": 23, "text": "Now, this was an independent film. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1117171280", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Anne Heche", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers actor Anne Heche", "question_index": 24, "text": "Yeah. And independent film was the direction that your co-star Catherine Keener headed in for a long time, whereas you went more toward the big-budget pictures.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, Nicole Holofcener was the director."}
{"id": "1117171280", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Anne Heche", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers actor Anne Heche", "question_index": 25, "text": "Was that an intentional move? Or is that just kind of what happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know what? I..."}
{"id": "1117171280", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Anne Heche", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers actor Anne Heche", "question_index": 26, "text": "I think when you and Ellen became a couple, it was I think just at about the time you were about to sign on to \"Six Days And Seven Nights\" (ph).", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I switched it up as much as I could. I mean, some of the independents that I did weren't seen. I've always wanted to shake it up. To me, I'm drawn to the parts more than I am - you know, what's di"}
{"id": "1117171280", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Anne Heche", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers actor Anne Heche", "question_index": 27, "text": "And I believe you were advised not to say anything publicly until the deal was finished.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, right."}
{"id": "1117171280", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Anne Heche", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers actor Anne Heche", "question_index": 28, "text": "But you did say something publicly about being a couple with Ellen.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that's true."}
{"id": "1117171280", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Anne Heche", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers actor Anne Heche", "question_index": 29, "text": "You fired your own management after that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I did, and the people who told me got fired."}
{"id": "1117171280", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Anne Heche", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers actor Anne Heche", "question_index": 30, "text": "Do...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Yes. And, no, I don't want to make light. I mean, it was - I do want to make light of it because it's over, and now everybody is healed, and I have compassion for what they went through, too. I mean"}
{"id": "1117171280", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Anne Heche", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers actor Anne Heche", "question_index": 31, "text": "Well, did they test you further or think about it a lot more or talk with you about how you were going to handle the public aspect of your private life before making the deal official?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And the beauty of it was that I still got the part. So, you know, there you have it."}
{"id": "1117171280", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Anne Heche", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers actor Anne Heche", "question_index": 32, "text": "You mean if you go to the premiere with Ellen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, they didn't. The - what was on the table was, if you go to the premiere of \"Volcano,\" which was a movie I did with Tommy Lee Jones - and actually, what was put on the table was, if you go to this "}
{"id": "1117171280", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Anne Heche", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers actor Anne Heche", "question_index": 33, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "With Ellen..."}
{"id": "1117171280", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Anne Heche", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers actor Anne Heche", "question_index": 34, "text": "And people from the movie told you that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You will not get the offer for the Harrison Ford movie. And that was my ultimatum."}
{"id": "1117171280", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Anne Heche", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers actor Anne Heche", "question_index": 35, "text": "Oh, right. OK. Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't want to say the particular voices."}
{"id": "1117171280", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Anne Heche", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers actor Anne Heche", "question_index": 36, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, there were a lot of people who..."}
{"id": "1117171280", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Anne Heche", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers actor Anne Heche", "question_index": 37, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes - warned me to not go with Ellen."}
{"id": "1117171280", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Anne Heche", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers actor Anne Heche", "question_index": 38, "text": "So why do you think you ended up getting the role anyways?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And actually, it was put on the table that if I was going to go with Ellen, maybe I shouldn't go at all to my own premiere."}
{"id": "1117171280", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Anne Heche", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers actor Anne Heche", "question_index": 39, "text": "I'm wondering if you and Ellen disagreed at all, early on, about how to handle the public aspect of your relationship? Because, you know, on the one hand, you had always, up until that point, been straight, and you had the example...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. We had - actually, Harrison and I had a really wonderful chemistry from the second we walked in the door. And the blessing of that entire movie is that it - the message that talent wins "}
{"id": "1117171280", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Anne Heche", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers actor Anne Heche", "question_index": 40, "text": "...Of your father about how a secret life can kill you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1117171280", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Anne Heche", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers actor Anne Heche", "question_index": 41, "text": "...Whereas Ellen had been gay all her life and had been very closeted, you know, worried...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1117171280", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Anne Heche", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers actor Anne Heche", "question_index": 42, "text": "...About the impact it would have on perceptions of her and her career. So you're really coming at this relationship from completely different places, I mean, from opposite places.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1117171280", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Anne Heche", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers actor Anne Heche", "question_index": 43, "text": "And so your perceptions, probably, about how one handles the public face of a private relationship would likely be pretty different.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Totally. Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "1117171280", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Anne Heche", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers actor Anne Heche", "question_index": 44, "text": "But what do you wish you'd done differently?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, actually, I mean, we were both so amazed that people cared as much as they did. I mean, Ellen knew that it was going to be a big deal that her character was coming out on the show because people"}
{"id": "1118294013", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Jonathan Banks", "title": "Jonathan Banks embraces 'not being very pretty' as 'Breaking Bad' hitman", "question_index": 0, "text": "So, Jonathan Banks, you're a former cop in \"Breaking Bad\" and \"Better Call Saul.\" You've played a lot of cops and former cops over the years. And in \"Wiseguy,\" where I first saw you, a TV series that started in 1987, you played the head of, like, an organized crime task force. And you were the supervisor for the Ken Wahl character who goes undercover every week. So how did you get to play so many cops and former cops? Like, what is it about you, do you think?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Jimmy McGill) Fine. You win. Hooray for you. Backing up. I have to back up. I need more stickers. Don't have enough stickers. Thank you. Thank you. Very nice. Employee of the month over here. Yeah"}
{"id": "1118294013", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Jonathan Banks", "title": "Jonathan Banks embraces 'not being very pretty' as 'Breaking Bad' hitman", "question_index": 1, "text": "Were you a tough guy at all as a young man?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm not very pretty, so I can't play the leading man. So I'm either going to be the bad guy or the cop. And that's - you know what? It's a smart aleck answer, but it's also there's some truth in that."}
{"id": "1118294013", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Jonathan Banks", "title": "Jonathan Banks embraces 'not being very pretty' as 'Breaking Bad' hitman", "question_index": 2, "text": "I read your mother was in the CIA. Did you know exactly what she did or was that like a big secret?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I mean, these guys that get up and say, I grew up in a tough neighborhood, it was this, it was that, it was this - the reality is they were sad neighborhoods. And if you were lucky enough to get o"}
{"id": "1118294013", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Jonathan Banks", "title": "Jonathan Banks embraces 'not being very pretty' as 'Breaking Bad' hitman", "question_index": 3, "text": "It took me a while to realize you were talking about sexual harassment there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'll give you - I'm going to get - my mom's gone now. But my mother started out in life on her own completely at 15 years old as a maid in a methodist parsonage in Bloomington, Ind. She was a whiz at "}
{"id": "1118294013", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Jonathan Banks", "title": "Jonathan Banks embraces 'not being very pretty' as 'Breaking Bad' hitman", "question_index": 4, "text": "And for people who don't know - when you said they burn their carbons, that's carbon paper that makes duplicates of what you're typing. Your mother must have typed a lot of secrets.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep. Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "1118294013", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Jonathan Banks", "title": "Jonathan Banks embraces 'not being very pretty' as 'Breaking Bad' hitman", "question_index": 5, "text": "So how did you get into acting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mom - when the transcriptions came back from the Nuremberg trials, she was at the Treasury. And that's where the Secret Service used to be. And there was a tunnel that used to go under - and maybe "}
{"id": "1118294013", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Jonathan Banks", "title": "Jonathan Banks embraces 'not being very pretty' as 'Breaking Bad' hitman", "question_index": 6, "text": "I love hearing stories about teachers who, you know, who give students an opportunity that they would have been too embarrassed or shy to ask for or just wouldn't have thought of doing, and that it's transformative. So thanks to that teacher...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was a handful. And I used to - at the gym at the school, I would - when I'd go out for whatever practice it was, I would look through the gym window. And I just - I\u2019d wanted to do it since I was pro"}
{"id": "1118294013", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Jonathan Banks", "title": "Jonathan Banks embraces 'not being very pretty' as 'Breaking Bad' hitman", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'll tell you this..."}
{"id": "1118294013", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Jonathan Banks", "title": "Jonathan Banks embraces 'not being very pretty' as 'Breaking Bad' hitman", "question_index": 8, "text": "Were you going to protect them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1118294013", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Jonathan Banks", "title": "Jonathan Banks embraces 'not being very pretty' as 'Breaking Bad' hitman", "question_index": 9, "text": "The roots of Mike. There we have it", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You bet, yeah."}
{"id": "1118294013", "date": "2022-08-19", "guest": "Jonathan Banks", "title": "Jonathan Banks embraces 'not being very pretty' as 'Breaking Bad' hitman", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You bet, yeah."}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Colson Whitehead, welcome back to FRESH AIR. I love this novel. Thanks for writing it, and thanks for coming back to our show.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. Our guest, Colson Whitehead, is a two-time Pulitzer Prize winner for his novels \"The Underground Railroad\" and \"The Nickel Boys.\" \"The Undergrou"}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 1, "text": "I want to start by asking you to do a reading. And just to set this up a little bit - so, you know, Ray Carney is a fence, and he basically deals with pretty small-time stuff. But his cousin, who's more of a full-time crook - and this is a cousin who Ray has bailed out all of the cousin's life - the cousin Freddie comes to him and says, look. We're doing a heist of a safe at the Hotel Theresa. And you describe this as the Waldorf of Harlem, and it was a real hotel. And Ray thinks, wow, robbing that is kind of like pissing on the Statue of Liberty. And he thinks this is a - this job is just, like, too big for him. It's, like, wrong for him. So I'd like you to do a reading about Ray Carney's reaction to his cousin's proposal about fencing the stolen jewels from this heist after the heist is done.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, thanks for having me back. It's very exciting."}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 2, "text": "Thanks for reading that. That's Colson Whitehead reading from his new novel, \"Harlem Shuffle.\" So after writing novels with really big social themes, \"The Underground Railroad\" and \"The Nickel Boys,\" why did you want to write a crime novel set in Harlem in 1959 to '64?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All righty. (Reading) Even if he were crooked enough for his cousin's proposition, he didn't have the contacts to handle a haul from the Hotel Theresa. Three hundred rooms, who knows how many guests l"}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Now, you set it in a period of the civil rights movement, '59 to '64. It ends a year before the Voting Rights Act. Carney is pretty oblivious to the civil rights movement, but his wife works for a Black travel agency that books people into places that are safe for Black people, which is especially important in the South. Then the agency becomes involved in booking travel for civil rights groups. And I found it really interesting that the civil rights movement is way in the background for him, whereas it's kind of forefront for her.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, well, I usually do mix it up - you know, write a serious book or most - more sober book and then something lighter with more jokes. I originally was going to follow up \"The Underground Railroad\""}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 4, "text": "So as you've described, the main character has a dual personality. He's part legit businessman with his furniture store. His side line is as a fence. What interested you in a character with those dual sides?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- someone is paying attention, and the other person isn't. You know, I didn't feel any need to make Carney more political than he probably would be. You know, he's half crook. He's preoccupied with hi"}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 5, "text": "So in the book, Ray's father, who is dead when the book begins - he's someone who occasionally had to break somebody's knees. He was the muscle, the guy who had to follow through on the threats. So this is how Ray grew up, with a father who was out all the time doing God knows what. And Ray becomes a fence. Did you have to do a lot of research into how fences operate or how they operated back in the '60s?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I always start with, you know, these abstract propositions or questions, like, why can't I do a heist novel? - and then have to actually make it into a story. So it's a heist. When is it? Where "}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 6, "text": "I love the way Carney describes some of what he sells as gently used", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean, the research is fun 'cause it feeds the book. So I decided to have a fence for a hero because I always find it appalling when I watch a heist movie, and, you know, the criminals have sto"}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean, the research is fun 'cause it feeds the book. So I decided to have a fence for a hero because I always find it appalling when I watch a heist movie, and, you know, the criminals have sto"}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Carney could put what he was doing in a more kind of sociopolitical, economic context and say things like, in a world where my business degree means nothing because I'm Black, this is the work I have to do to fulfill my ambitions 'cause doors are closed to me. But he doesn't think in those larger tones. He just thinks, like, it's really hard to make a living in a furniture store selling on the installment plan because I barely have the money to pay rent. And I want my family to move to a nicer home. And so I think it's interesting since you are so socially, politically, economically aware and have written novels that show that, that in this character's mind, that doesn't really figure into it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He - you know, he's - he lies to himself. He's not necessarily as clued in to how crooked he is at the start of the book. And in the three different sections, you know, there's three different jobs or"}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 9, "text": "All right, let's take a short break here. My guest is Colson Whitehead. His new novel is called \"Harlem Shuffle.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, well, I think that's what I sort of find lovely about him - is that, you know, he's complicated. And as the book goes on and the years pass, he's not hurting as much for money. You know, his wif"}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Colson Whitehead. He won Pulitzer Prizes for his novels \"The Nickel Boys\" and \"The Underground Railroad,\" which was adapted into an Amazon TV series that's now nominated for multiple Emmys. His new book is a crime novel called \"Harlem Shuffle,\" set in Harlem between 1959 and 1964. I want to get back to being a fence. So could you describe in a little more detail how fencing goods works? I mean, it's kind of like laundering money but with goods.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, well, I think that's what I sort of find lovely about him - is that, you know, he's complicated. And as the book goes on and the years pass, he's not hurting as much for money. You know, his wif"}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 11, "text": "When you were writing this novel, did you develop an eye for stores that you thought might be fronts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Well, it's different things. You can - it's jewels. It's rare coins, TVs. So in the case of Carney, when we first meet him, Freddie and other local hoods have stolen televisions, radios, and Car"}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was always, you know - I still continue to be a failure to know what stores are fronts and what is not. When I lived in Brooklyn in, I guess, what they call a changing neighborhood in Fort Gre"}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 13, "text": "One of the ways he protects himself from thinking of himself as being a criminal is that he sees the goods, but he never sees the people who were robbed or the businesses that were robbed. And if there's no victim that he knows about, it's less of a crime. It really made me think about how easy it must be to protect yourself from thinking about the victim. If you don't know who the victim is, you don't know who's been hurt and how they've been hurt.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "it's not really legit. So I'm very oblivious. But I have to get into character. And Carney, as he enters more deeply into the criminal world, starts to see things he didn't know before. And so he's ri"}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I'm going to write that down for future inquiry."}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 15, "text": "You told The New York Times that you think everyone has a criminal side, even if it's just stealing a pack of gum. So of course, I have to ask, do you feel that way yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. Thank you for that point. But also, you know, I - in each section in the book, you know, from '59 to '61 to '64 - I keep pulling back, and we start with, like, a street-level view of crime "}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mostly when I was stealing Wi-Fi before everyone had passwords..."}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 17, "text": "That is truly a victimless crime unless you're hacking the person you're stealing from", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "..."}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "..."}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 19, "text": "You're freeloading.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But their - you know, their..."}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 20, "text": "You set the novel in Harlem. It's a Black world in Harlem and in your novel, except for the cops, who are white. Was it a relief to write about Harlem after writing about an escaped slave who runs into every imaginable problem after escaping?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. Let's get back to Terry's 2021 interview with Colson Whitehead. He won Pulitzer Prizes for his novels \"The Nickel Boys\" and \"The Underground Rai"}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Do you see a throughline between, say, \"Underground Railroad\" and your new novel in the sense that after slavery and once Jim Crow started, and when, you know, lynchings and other forms of attacks against Black people were so common, so many people from the South moved to the North. And that's probably one of the ways Harlem became Harlem, you know, how Harlem became Black as opposed to Jewish and Italian, which it was before that. You write Harlem was desegregated in 1940 after the neighborhood tipped over from Jews and Italians and became the domain of southern Blacks and West Indians. I love this line. Everyone who came uptown had crossed some variety of violent ocean.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think doing \"Underground\" then \"Nickel Boys\" back to back definitely took its toll. I mean, I think I had done all my emotional heavy lifting before I wrote \"Underground Railroad.\" And so I knew wha"}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 22, "text": "As we've mentioned, Ray Carney is the son of a crook, of a full-time crook. And Carney's wife is from a middle-class family. Her parents live on Strivers' Row in Harlem. Her father is a successful accountant for successful businessmen, politicians, doctors and lawyers in Harlem. Her father brags about his collection of loopholes and dodges. And he belongs to this club for the elite Black community in Harlem called the Dumas. Am I pronouncing it right, Dumas Club?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, you know, there's this churn of immigrants in Harlem, which I found very fun to explore. The - 150 years ago, Harlem is farmland. It's pastureland. And then speculators put up buildings."}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Right", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think if you - it's named after Alexandre Dumas. But I figure these guys say Dumas. That seems like the mid-century..."}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 24, "text": ". OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think if you - it's named after Alexandre Dumas. But I figure these guys say Dumas. That seems like the mid-century..."}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Yeah. And so you describe it in the book as a paper bag club. Would you explain what that means?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Harlem way to say it. So I - mentally, I think of Dumas."}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 26, "text": "So there was that much colorism in the elite Black clubs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There were various social clubs for well-to-do Black folks in the 19th and 20th centuries. And you could only enter them if you had a, you know, upstanding job and also if you were lighter than a pape"}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 27, "text": "Can you talk about how Harlem has changed from the time the novel is set, '59 to '64, to now? Because I imagine you spent a lot of time in Harlem while you were writing the novel, even though it has changed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And, you know, I mean, I can't speak for all of them. But that was definitely a real force, that sort of social stratification. Where are you from, you know? Are you first-generation college or "}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 28, "text": "Tell us about the Hotel Theresa and its place in Harlem.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, you know, location scouting and, you know, finding places for Carney to live. You know, it was a great, fun thing to do. I lived in Harlem until I was about 6 on 139th and Riverside. So "}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 29, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Colson Whitehead. His new novel is called \"Harlem Shuffle.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "it was such a holy place that it could be a site for some of the action in the book. And you know, I had to think of these different robbers' reactions. And so Miami Joe, who plans the heist at the Ho"}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 30, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Colson Whitehead. His new novel, \"Harlem Shuffle,\" is set in Harlem between 1959 and '64. It's a crime novel. Mount Morris Park, which is now called Marcus Garvey Park, is a place where bodies are buried...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "it was such a holy place that it could be a site for some of the action in the book. And you know, I had to think of these different robbers' reactions. And so Miami Joe, who plans the heist at the Ho"}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 31, "text": "...In the novel. Like, if you've killed somebody, that's the place to hide the body. And a lot of our listeners who aren't familiar with Harlem might know Mount Morris Park, now Marcus Garvey Park, from the Questlove documentary about the 1969 Harlem Cultural Festival because that festival was held in Mount Morris Park. So what do you know - I mean, was it really - is this part of, like, the park's lore? Or is it, like, really true...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 32, "text": "...That bodies were buried there? What's the story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 33, "text": "Dumped, yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Not buried but dumped - and so..."}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 34, "text": "You wrote a novel called \"Zone One\" about a plague. And the people infected with the plague become zombies. And after this kind of plague and zombie apocalypse, the survivors have to kind of remake the world. Did you think about that a lot when COVID started? 'Cause it's a plague", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah. So I went to newspapers for what's happening in the city. And, you know, starting with \"Underground Railroad,\" primary sources are really just great for me to, you know, suck up slang and "}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 35, "text": ". And we're not turning into zombies, but, you know, we're certainly having our share of problems.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah. So I went to newspapers for what's happening in the city. And, you know, starting with \"Underground Railroad,\" primary sources are really just great for me to, you know, suck up slang and "}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 36, "text": "The hoarders.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is a plague. And definitely, I was thinking about it in a very sort of depressing way, just being locked down and remembering this or that passage from the book. But mostly, I was sort of angry abo"}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 37, "text": "I hope you've managed to stay well through the pandemic.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the hoarders - yeah. So that was a failure of my imagination. And then secondly, I had no idea that people would say, oh, the zombie virus is just like the flu. It doesn't really matter. Or I'm not"}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 38, "text": "In one of our previous interviews, you told me that you almost saw yourself as a shut-in because you were always writing and reading", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, very - you know, the early part of lockdown was, are we safe? Is everybody psychologically safe? And then how can we sustain a consistent Wi-Fi signal for the kids? And then how can I find an hou"}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 39, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, very - you know, the early part of lockdown was, are we safe? Is everybody psychologically safe? And then how can we sustain a consistent Wi-Fi signal for the kids? And then how can I find an hou"}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 40, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So, yes, on social media - so writers would say lockdown's not that different than, you know, the way things were before, you know, writers proud to have been training for lockdown life for decades "}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 41, "text": "You also told me that you had zombie dreams for about 30 years and - not constantly, but it was a theme of some of your dreams for 30 years. And at the time we spoke, which was a few years ago, you were having those dreams about once a year. Are you still having zombie dreams, and did COVID kind of make them more frequent or more crazy? Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Which was true. But also, you know, some of my writer friends have younger kids, you know, 1-year-olds, and it was different sort of corralling them and finding the time to work. And so everyone ha"}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 42, "text": "That's too bad.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I was a big horror fan. And so I saw \"Night Of The Living Dead\" and \"Dawn Of The Dead\" very early. And depending on my psychological weather, I would have dreams where zombies catch me. They're s"}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 43, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...The writing cure - sometimes good and sometimes bad. Can I tell you about this weird thing, Terry?"}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 44, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, you know - so obviously, the FRESH AIR interview is revered around the world, and so whatever I say to you now becomes the template for other people's interviews for years and years. So whatever y"}
{"id": "1119616957", "date": "2022-08-26", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead returns to his home turf with 'Harlem Shuffle'", "question_index": 45, "text": ". Colson Whitehead, it's been really great to have you back on the show. And I want to say again, I really love your new book. So thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, see - they just go through the transcript, and then they'll steal your questions and then - but they'll also steal, like, you know, stuff that just comes up in conversation. So I'm like, I haven"}
{"id": "1119640101", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Keith Richards", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Keith Richards", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today we begin a weeklong series featuring a few of our favorite music interviews from our archive. Jay-Z, Lizzo, Rosanne Cash, Smokey Robinson and Pete Seeger are just some of the people in the series. To start it off, we have the interview I recorded with Keith Richards, a founding member of The Rolling Stones, who is still the band's guitarist. He co-wrote much of the Stones' classic repertoire with Mick Jagger, including \"Satisfaction,\" \"Let's Spend The Night Together,\" \"Get Off My Cloud,\" \"Gimme Shelter,\" \"Sympathy For The Devil\" and \"Beast Of Burden.\" A four-part BBC series about the Stones, with each episode focused on a different member of the band, has been showing this month on Epix and is also streaming. I spoke with Keith Richards in 2010 after his autobiography, \"Life,\" was published.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1119640101", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Keith Richards", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Keith Richards", "question_index": 1, "text": "Keith Richards, welcome to FRESH AIR. Thank you so much for coming. Now, I remember when The Stones started to record that in America, we were expected to pick a team. Who do you like best - The Stones or The Beatles?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1119640101", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Keith Richards", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Keith Richards", "question_index": 2, "text": "Yeah. And you write about, you know, when the Stones started getting going that you didn't want to copy The Beatles and you decided to be the anti-Beatles. So what did that mean in terms of your music and your image?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The competition thing, yeah."}
{"id": "1119640101", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Keith Richards", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Keith Richards", "question_index": 3, "text": "You have a great story in your book about how you co-wrote - well, how you got \"Satisfaction\" started. You co-wrote the song with Mick Jagger, but you originated it and you didn't know you were doing it. Can you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I think if you took an image wise, we probably did make a sort of decision to not be The Fab Four, I think. They were different. Basically, the differences between the bands - The Beatles we"}
{"id": "1119640101", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Keith Richards", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Keith Richards", "question_index": 4, "text": "Now, how did the line I can't get no satisfaction come to you at a time when you should have been having a lot of very satisfying, gratifying moments?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But there's the song in its embryo. And I actually dreamt the damn thing, you know? And I'm still waiting for another dream."}
{"id": "1119640101", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Keith Richards", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Keith Richards", "question_index": 5, "text": "No, true. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Darling, I don't know. I dreamt it."}
{"id": "1119640101", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Keith Richards", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Keith Richards", "question_index": 6, "text": "OK. So let's hear \"Satisfaction.\" This is The Rolling Stones. My guest is Keith Richards, and he's written a new autobiography called \"Life.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, nobody's ever satisfied, right? And it was just a phrase that obviously, you know, was buzzing through the mind and whether you could express anything or enlarge on the idea of - because other"}
{"id": "1119640101", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Keith Richards", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Keith Richards", "question_index": 7, "text": "That's The Rolling Stones. And my guest is Keith Richards, and he's written his autobiography. It's called \"Life.\" Now, that cassette that you mentioned that you used to write down the idea for \"Satisfaction\" in the middle of the night that so surprised you when you played it back in the morning, that cassette or one just like it was also really helpful to you in coming up with a kind of transformative guitar sound. Would you describe how you would plug your acoustic guitar in motel rooms into the cassette machine?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I can't get no satisfaction. I can't get no satisfaction. 'Cause I try and I try and I try and I try. I can't go no, I can't get no - when I'm driving in my car, when a man comes on the radi"}
{"id": "1119640101", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Keith Richards", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Keith Richards", "question_index": 8, "text": "So what you would get is, like, an electrified acoustic guitar that was also distorted.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'll try. Yeah. No, that's a good question. Yeah, I'll try. Because there I am - I now have my hands on the best amplifiers in the world and the best guitars. But I'm trying to translate another sound"}
{"id": "1119640101", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Keith Richards", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Keith Richards", "question_index": 9, "text": "Now, it was surprising enough to me to read how you did this in your motel room. But then, reading how you did it also in the recording studio was fascinating. They - you wanted that sound so much that you brought in...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And - but there's a touch that you can get off an acoustic guitar that you'll never get off an electric. And so I was trying to figure how to electrify the acoustic feel and still translate it. And "}
{"id": "1119640101", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Keith Richards", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Keith Richards", "question_index": 10, "text": "...The cassette machine and plugged your acoustic guitar into it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1119640101", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Keith Richards", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Keith Richards", "question_index": 11, "text": "So do you think \"Jumpin' Jack Flash\" was a good illustration of what you were doing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I took these ideas, and we - the Stones were in the studio. And we were all looking at it. And then - it doesn't have what you had on the - you know, on the original idea. And so finally, after m"}
{"id": "1119640101", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Keith Richards", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Keith Richards", "question_index": 12, "text": "Which one would you rather hear?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, and \"Street Fighting Man\" is probably another great example of it. The..."}
{"id": "1119640101", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Keith Richards", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Keith Richards", "question_index": 13, "text": "All right. So we'll go with \"Jumpin' Jack Flash.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I love them both, honey. Don't ask me to cut the babies in half."}
{"id": "1119640101", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Keith Richards", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Keith Richards", "question_index": 14, "text": "So here's the Rolling Stones' \"Jumpin' Jack Flash\" and my guest, Keith Richards, playing the kind of plugged-into-the-cassette-machine guitar that he was just describing. And he has an autobiography called \"Life.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Go there. All right, yeah."}
{"id": "1119640101", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Keith Richards", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Keith Richards", "question_index": 15, "text": "We'll hear more of my interview with Rolling Stones guitarist, Keith Richards, after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) One, two. I was born in a crossfire hurricane. And I howled at the morning driving rain. But it's all right now. In fact, it's a gas. But it's all right. I'm Jumpin' Jack Flash. It's a gas, "}
{"id": "1119640101", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Keith Richards", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Keith Richards", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Keith Richards, the Rolling Stones guitarist who co-wrote many of the songs in the Stones repertoire with Mick Jagger. I spoke with him in 2010. Then there are the songs that you describe as anti-girl songs that the Stones did like \"Stupid Girl,\" \"Under My Thumb,\" \"Out Of Time,\" \"Yesterday's Papers.\" And this is where I've been so ambivalent about some of the Stones' songs like \"Under My Thumb.\" \"Under My Thumb\" is so catchy. I mean, I think it's just, like, irresistibly irresistible what's going on, like, melodically and rhythmically in there. And then, you know, I catch myself singing along, and what am I singing? You know, like, about this girl who's, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) One, two. I was born in a crossfire hurricane. And I howled at the morning driving rain. But it's all right now. In fact, it's a gas. But it's all right. I'm Jumpin' Jack Flash. It's a gas, "}
{"id": "1119640101", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Keith Richards", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Keith Richards", "question_index": 17, "text": "...Under his thumb. And so anyways, were you ever ambivalent about the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I just got - it's..."}
{"id": "1119640101", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Keith Richards", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Keith Richards", "question_index": 18, "text": "Go ahead. Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let me try and break in here, Terry."}
{"id": "1119640101", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Keith Richards", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Keith Richards", "question_index": 19, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let me break in here..."}
{"id": "1119640101", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Keith Richards", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Keith Richards", "question_index": 20, "text": "Cut to the chase.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And say, you can take it as a, you know, male-female, if you'd like. Or it's just people. I mean, it could be about a guy. It could have been - you know, this is just a guy singing, you know, that "}
{"id": "1119640101", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Keith Richards", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Keith Richards", "question_index": 21, "text": "Off the hook", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And say, you can take it as a, you know, male-female, if you'd like. Or it's just people. I mean, it could be about a guy. It could have been - you know, this is just a guy singing, you know, that "}
{"id": "1119640101", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Keith Richards", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Keith Richards", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And say, you can take it as a, you know, male-female, if you'd like. Or it's just people. I mean, it could be about a guy. It could have been - you know, this is just a guy singing, you know, that "}
{"id": "1119640101", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Keith Richards", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Keith Richards", "question_index": 23, "text": "Let me ask you about your relationship with Mick Jagger. You grew up in the same neighborhood. You've known him since you were a boy. You were obviously very close for a long period of time, co-wrote so many songs together. But at the same time, you write about how...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Under my thumb, the girl who once had me down. Under my thumb, the girl who once pushed me around. It's down to me. The difference in the clothes she wears, down to me. The change has come. "}
{"id": "1119640101", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Keith Richards", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Keith Richards", "question_index": 24, "text": "Yeah, about how in the beginning of the \u201880s...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hey; there\u2019s problems down the road, yeah."}
{"id": "1119640101", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Keith Richards", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Keith Richards", "question_index": 25, "text": "Yes, go ahead. Go ahead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1119640101", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Keith Richards", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Keith Richards", "question_index": 26, "text": "But you describe him as having become unbearable in the early '80s. What...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I mean, do you think in a 50-year relationship doing this stuff that there's not going to be some conflict, some disagreements? Of course there's going to be\u2026"}
{"id": "1119640101", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Keith Richards", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Keith Richards", "question_index": 27, "text": "What made him unbearable in those times?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "At times, yes. So am I."}
{"id": "1119640101", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Keith Richards", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Keith Richards", "question_index": 28, "text": "But let me quote something that you say in the book. And this was - you write how, you know, in the early '80s - this is right after you had kicked heroin. And you said, (reading) Mick seemed to like one side of me being a junkie, the one that kept me from interfering in day-to-day business. And you say that after you kicked, you wanted a more active say in what the band did. But apparently, Mick Jagger didn't really want you to have one? Do I read that right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Attitude, you know? It's all in the book. And I don't want to expand on it with you, Terry. What I\u2019ve said is in the book. I - you know, I can't say anything more than that. I don't wish to."}
{"id": "1119640101", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Keith Richards", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Keith Richards", "question_index": 29, "text": "So just one more question about this, which is when you were performing onstage together during this period of great friction, do you feel it onstage? Did you try to prevent the audience from feeling that friction?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it's only rock 'n' roll, honey."}
{"id": "1119640101", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Keith Richards", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Keith Richards", "question_index": 30, "text": "So I'm going to play \"Beast Of Burden.\" Do you want to say anything about writing it or what you're playing on it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, get out of here. This is a bunch of guys that have been together for yonks, you know? I mean, you don't carry stuff like this onto stage. These are things that just happen. And you deal with them."}
{"id": "1119640101", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Keith Richards", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Keith Richards", "question_index": 31, "text": "What are the qualities in his voice and in his personality that you feel you're writing for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I loved it. Just another one that came very natural, sitting around with Mick and then (snapping) here's one. And Mick - see; I write songs for Mick to sing, you know? That's what I do. I mean, yo"}
{"id": "1119640101", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Keith Richards", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Keith Richards", "question_index": 32, "text": "That's good.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I got you."}
{"id": "1119640101", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Keith Richards", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Keith Richards", "question_index": 33, "text": "Well, thank you so much for talking with us. It's really been a pleasure. And, you know, all best to you. Thank you very much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And to have to work with such an outsized personality, ego and say, hey; whatever it takes, it\u2019s there and you\u2019ve got to - you know, and you\u2019ve got to go for it. And sometimes it doesn't work, a"}
{"id": "1119640101", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Keith Richards", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Keith Richards", "question_index": 34, "text": "My interview with Keith Richards was recorded in 2010 after the publication of his autobiography, \"Life.\" We're going to take a short break. And then we'll listen back to my interview with another great rock guitarist, Brian May, a founding member of the band Queen. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I'll never be your beast of burden. My back is broad, but it's hurting. All I want is for you to make love to me."}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's continue our series of music interviews from our archive with Brian May, a founding member of the band Queen and its lead guitarist. He also wrote one of Queen's most famous songs, which has become a stadium anthem - \"We Will Rock You.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 1, "text": "That's not the band Queen. It's the queen - Queen Elizabeth. As part of her recent Platinum Jubilee, she made a video of her tapping her spoon on a teacup to Queen's famous rhythm. Then the band Queen performed a concert outside Buckingham Palace to a huge crowd. When they played \"We Will Rock You,\" the Royal Marine drummers kicked it off.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 2, "text": "We're about to hear the story behind \"We Will Rock You\" from Brian May. His life has taken some surprising turns. A few years ago, he submitted his doctoral dissertation in astrophysics on the subject \"A Survey Of Radial Velocities In The Zodiacal Dust Cloud.\" He's now Dr. May. In 2007, he was awarded an honorary fellowship at Liverpool John Moores University in England. When I spoke with May in 2010, we talked about the band, its lead singer, Freddie Mercury, who died in 1991, and the music.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 3, "text": "That's Queen's \"We Will Rock You,\" which is written by my guest, Brian May, who was the lead guitarist for the band. So what inspired that song? I mean, it's been played at so many sports stadiums over the decades. Were you thinking of it as a sports anthem? - because it almost sounds like an old-school cheerleader cheer, you know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Buddy, you're a boy. Make a big noise. Playing in the street - gonna (ph) be a big man someday. You got mud on your face, you big disgrace, kicking your can all over the place, singing, we w"}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 4, "text": "...Because of that stomp, stomp, clap thing and because it's a chant.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's become part of the fabric of life."}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 5, "text": "So how did you record the stomp, stomp, clap so it would sound grand and reverberating as opposed to three people, four people stomping their feet and clapping?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's right. Well, the stomp stomp clap thing, yeah. People think it was always there, but actually it wasn't. And I don't know how it got into my head. All I can tell you is we played a gig so"}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 6, "text": "That's amazing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm a physicist, you see. So I had this idea if we did it enough times - and we didn't use any reverb or anything - that I could build a sound which would work. We were very lucky. We were worki"}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 7, "text": "Now, here's another really interesting thing to me about \"We Will Rock You.\" It's the most famous song that you've written. It's a largely a cappella song. You come in for your guitar solo at the very end. So until, like, the very, very end, like, you're not even playing on it. And it's just kind of amazing that you, as the guitarist, would write a song that you're barely featured on.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And also singing."}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm featured stamping and clapping, you see."}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 9, "text": "And you're very good at that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I'm featured singing, so..."}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 10, "text": "OK. So let's just hear the end of \"We Will Rock You.\" And we'll hear that guitar solo at the end.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. Well, we're all (inaudible). The guitars - yeah, I didn't want us to be standard. I didn't want it to be like, oh, here's a guitar solo, and then we sing another verse. I wanted it to be so"}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 11, "text": "Here it is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 12, "text": "So that's the end of \"We Will Rock You,\" written by my guest, guitarist and singer and songwriter Brian May, who was one of the founding members of Queen. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) We will, we will rock you. Everybody, we will, we will rock you. We will, we will rock you. All right."}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 13, "text": "Yeah, please.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I should - can I comment on the end of that?"}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 14, "text": "My guest is Brian May, a co-founder and the lead guitarist of the band Queen - more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Interesting that you play the end of the song. You can hear the guitar waiting in the wings. That was - you can hear this little feedback note. And so the guitar is present although it's not taking ce"}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 15, "text": "My guest is Brian May, a co-founder of the band Queen and its lead guitarist. The lead singer, Freddie Mercury, died in 1991. Mercury was very theatrical in his performances and songwriting. One of the most theatrical and unconventional songs Mercury wrote for Queen was \"Bohemian Rhapsody.\" How did he demo the song for you before the band started performing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Interesting that you play the end of the song. You can hear the guitar waiting in the wings. That was - you can hear this little feedback note. And so the guitar is present although it's not taking ce"}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 16, "text": "Now, you mentioned that this started as, you know, piano and then piano, bass and drums. But you do have a guitar solo, a very well-known one.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He sat down at the piano and (vocalizing). And he said, and here's a bit where everything stops, and there's an acapella bit, and then, we come back in again. He had it all mapped out, and that's the "}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yeah, and it kind of bridges two sections of the song. So here's Queen's \"Bohemian Rhapsody\" with my guest, Brian May, on guitar and also doing some of the voices.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Well, that's added after. Yes. Yes, of course."}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 18, "text": "So that's Queen's \"Bohemian Rhapsody\" with - featuring my guest, Brian May, on guitar. So let me just play you one thing that I'm sure you're familiar with. Here it comes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Mama, ooh - any way the wind blows. I don't want to die. I sometimes wish I'd never been born at all. I see a little silhouetto (ph) of a man. Scaramouch, Scaramouch, will you do the fandang"}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 19, "text": "Yes. Mike Myers...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The delightful \"Wayne's World.\""}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 20, "text": "...From the movie \"Wayne's World.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The delightful \"Wayne's World.\""}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 21, "text": "What did it do for Queen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, well, I have to thank Mike Myers for introducing us to a whole new generation at that time. It was amazing what it did, and..."}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 22, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "he said, you know, it might do for us what nothing else would do. And he was dead right. You know, it's amazing that even the fact that Freddie died didn't make that much of a difference, but the fact"}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 23, "text": "Have you have you heard The Muppets' version of \"Bohemian Rhapsody\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that's a strange quote. But it sort of came true in a very strange way. But \"Wayne's World\" was the vehicle through which young people discovered Queen, you know, a whole new set of young people. "}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 24, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that's a strange quote. But it sort of came true in a very strange way. But \"Wayne's World\" was the vehicle through which young people discovered Queen, you know, a whole new set of young people. "}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 25, "text": "It's really fun. Can I play that for our listeners?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, of course. Of course. Yeah. Well, they..."}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 26, "text": "Oh, I see. I see.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, you can. Well, we had to have heard it 'cause it's us on the record. You know, they asked us if they could do it, and they said, look - we can sing this, and we can perform it, but we can't real"}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 27, "text": "It's so much fun. So here's part of it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Generally, we say - generally, we don't let anybody do that. But in this case, 'cause it's the venerable Muppets, we said, yes, we'll do that with you. So, yes, we produced it with them."}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 28, "text": "That's The Muppets' version of Queen's \"Bohemian Rhapsody.\" We'll talk more with Queen's lead guitarist Brian May after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As characters, singing) Does anyone know if there is a part for me, for me, for me?"}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Brian May, a founding member and the lead guitarist of Queen. We spoke in 2010. So let me ask you about the name of the band, Queen. How did you feel about giving it that name? Freddie Mercury was either gay or bisexual. I'm not sure how he would have described himself. But he didn't really talk about that, to my knowledge.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As characters, singing) Does anyone know if there is a part for me, for me, for me?"}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 30, "text": "Would he have said that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He would have said, I'm gay as a daffodil, darling."}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 31, "text": "Would he have said that in public?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He did say that."}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 32, "text": "So - but the name of the band - were...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He did say that in public. Freddie was not one to mince his words."}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 33, "text": "Also knowing - and I guess...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "How do I feel about it? Well, Terry, this is..."}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 34, "text": "But this is also the - like, there's so many homophobic hard rock fans - there were in the '70s and '80s.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know, going back such a long way..."}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 35, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So - but I think it sort of gradually changed. And I have no idea how these things work. But it wasn't really anybody's business but his. But I remember doing a promo tour for this song that we did "}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 36, "text": "Oh, really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But it was a huge deal. And I know that it really damaged our sort of whole relationship with certainly radio in this country and probably the public as well."}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 37, "text": "Let me get to some more recent developments in your life. Just a few years ago, you got your Ph.D. in a subject that you had been pursuing before Queen, and that's astrophysics. You have an astrophysics...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that's probably one of the reasons why this sort of hole developed between us and the States, which was really a tragedy because so many of our hits would have been - would have fitted very well i"}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 38, "text": "...Book that you co-wrote...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 39, "text": "...Recently. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 40, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's called \"Bang!\""}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 41, "text": "So it's interesting for me to think about you going back to the university after you'd become such a star. Of course, when you're getting your Ph.D., it's not like you're sitting in a large lecture class with people. But...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"A Complete History Of The Universe.\""}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 42, "text": "You wrote your thesis on a survey of radical velocities in the zodiacal dust cloud. I don't really know what any of that means.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, basically, it is, you know? Yeah, I didn't do that many lectures. But basically, you're abandoning your status outside. And you're going back, and you're being a student. It was tough. You're ha"}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 43, "text": "Oh, radial. I wrote it as radical velocities. I still don't know what it means.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a survey of radial velocities in the zodiacal dust cloud, yeah."}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 44, "text": "Can you give a very layperson's description of what you were studying in that, of what you were...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 45, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I can."}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 46, "text": "Yeah, that's true, isn't it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just - it's a study of dust, as simple as that. It's dust, in this case, in the solar system. So we're actually surrounded by it. The Earth moves through a cloud of dust constantly. And a lot of it co"}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 47, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that's a Doppler shift. Yeah, that's because the waves are stretching out as this police car passes you, and it changes from coming towards you to going away from you. Now, the same kind of thing "}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 48, "text": "So - yeah, so what were the larger implications of what you were looking at?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And from that, you can infer how they're moving."}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 49, "text": "The dust?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Aha, that's a good question. The larger implications are, where did it come from? And was it part of the creation of the universe? Or is it being created now?"}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 50, "text": "Well, Brian May, it's been such a pleasure to have you. Thank you so much for talking with us. I really appreciate it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The dust, yeah. And in fact, all of the above is true, you know? A certain amount of dust is created in every event in the universe and particularly in supernovae. A lot of dust is put out. And we hum"}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 51, "text": "Brian May is a founding member of the band Queen and its lead guitarist. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, as we continue our week-long series featuring some of our favorite music interviews from the archive, we'll hear several interviews I recorded over the years with the late Charlie Haden. He's one of the most important bass players in jazz history. He got his start when he was a little child singing on his family's country music radio show. He became famous as a member of the original Ornette Coleman Quartet, which led a musical revolution in the late '50s and early '60s. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. It was a pleasure, Terry."}
{"id": "1119640665", "date": "2022-08-29", "guest": "Brian May", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Queen guitarist Brian May", "question_index": 52, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering today from Al Banks. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. It was a pleasure, Terry."}
{"id": "1120033909", "date": "2022-08-30", "guest": "Charlie Haden", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Jazz great Charlie Haden", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. This week, we're featuring some of our favorite music interviews from our archive. Today, we'll hear several interviews with Charlie Haden, the preeminent bass player of his generation and one of the greatest bass players in the history of jazz. We'll hear interviews spanning from 1983 to 2008. He died in 2014. Haden played a remarkable range of music. He was born in Shenandoah, Iowa, and grew up in Missouri. From the age of 2 until he was 15, he sang on his family's country music radio show. He had to stop singing when polio affected his vocal chords. That's when he got serious about playing bass. Although he was brought up on traditional music, he made his reputation in jazz, helping lead a musical revolution in the late 1950s and early '60s as a member of the Ornette Coleman Quartet. In 1969, he launched his own group, the Liberation Music Orchestra, which performed music inspired by liberation movements around the world. In the '80s, he founded the group Quartet West, drawing inspiration from film noir and jazz and pop singers of the '40s and '50s. In 2008, he made an album with his three daughters, his wife and son, performing the kind of country music he sang as a child. Here's Haden in 1959, featured on the groundbreaking Ornette Coleman Quartet album \"The Shape Of Jazz To Come.\" This is Ornette Coleman's composition, \"Lonely Woman,\" with Charlie Haden on bass.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1120033909", "date": "2022-08-30", "guest": "Charlie Haden", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Jazz great Charlie Haden", "question_index": 1, "text": "The first time I spoke with Charlie Haden, in 1983, I asked him what kind of jazz he was playing before he met Ornette Coleman.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1120033909", "date": "2022-08-30", "guest": "Charlie Haden", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Jazz great Charlie Haden", "question_index": 2, "text": "Were you surprised at how controversial the music was when you started playing it? You know, a lot of people couldn't handle it all, musicians, listeners.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Bebop and blues and standards and bird tunes, loving every minute of it, learning the language. It was very exciting. And at one point, when I was first beginning to do that in Los Angeles, I started "}
{"id": "1120033909", "date": "2022-08-30", "guest": "Charlie Haden", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Jazz great Charlie Haden", "question_index": 3, "text": "We'll hear more of my 1983 interview with Charlie Haden later in the show. Let's hear him on the Ornette Coleman album \"Change Of The Century,\" which was released in 1960. This track, \"Ramblin'\", features one of Haden's most famous solos, on which, in a nod to his country music roots, he quotes the song \"Old Joe Clark.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was very involved in learning about the playing. We were all involved because it was a brand-new language. We didn't even think of it as being a brand-new language. We only thought of it as we're he"}
{"id": "1120033909", "date": "2022-08-30", "guest": "Charlie Haden", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Jazz great Charlie Haden", "question_index": 4, "text": "After Charlie Haden became famous for playing revolutionary jazz with Ornette Coleman, he started a group in 1969 playing music inspired by political revolutionary movements. He called it the Liberation Music Orchestra. The group's first album included a Haden original called \"Song For Che.\" He was arrested for playing it when he performed it with Ornette Coleman in Portugal in 1971. At the time, the country was led by the authoritarian Prime Minister Marcelo Caetano. Haden told me the story when we spoke in 1983.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was very involved in learning about the playing. We were all involved because it was a brand-new language. We didn't even think of it as being a brand-new language. We only thought of it as we're he"}
{"id": "1120033909", "date": "2022-08-30", "guest": "Charlie Haden", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Jazz great Charlie Haden", "question_index": 5, "text": "What did they interrogate you about? What did they want to know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We were playing with the Newport Jazz Festival Tour of Europe, which included Duke Ellington's band and Miles Davis and a lot of people, Giants of Jazz, which included Art Blakey and Monk and Sonny St"}
{"id": "1120033909", "date": "2022-08-30", "guest": "Charlie Haden", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Jazz great Charlie Haden", "question_index": 6, "text": "Charlie Haden recorded in 1983. Here's a track from Haden's first Liberation Music Orchestra album. This is \"Song For The United Front,\" written by Hanns Eisler and Bertolt Brecht.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, what they really want to do is to beat me up, to make me see that I can't do that. You know, I'm a foreigner in their land invading their privacy and their political ideology. And I have"}
{"id": "1120033909", "date": "2022-08-30", "guest": "Charlie Haden", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Jazz great Charlie Haden", "question_index": 7, "text": "Charlie Haden's Liberation Music Orchestra, recorded in 1969. Remember how Haden explained that his triplet daughters were born shortly before he was arrested in Portugal? After a break, we'll hear how the triplets sounded singing beautiful harmonies together on a Charlie Haden album from 2008. And we'll hear an excerpt of the interview Haden recorded that year about singing on his parents' country music radio show. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, what they really want to do is to beat me up, to make me see that I can't do that. You know, I'm a foreigner in their land invading their privacy and their political ideology. And I have"}
{"id": "1120033909", "date": "2022-08-30", "guest": "Charlie Haden", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Jazz great Charlie Haden", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. The next interview we're going to hear with the great jazz player and composer Charlie Haden was recorded in 2008. From the ages of 2 to 15, Haden sang on his family's country music radio show. In 2008, he returned to that music on his album, \"Rambling Boy,\" which featured vocals by his triplet daughters his son, his son-in-law Jack Black, and his wife, Ruth Cameron. Here's a track with Haden and the triplets.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, what they really want to do is to beat me up, to make me see that I can't do that. You know, I'm a foreigner in their land invading their privacy and their political ideology. And I have"}
{"id": "1120033909", "date": "2022-08-30", "guest": "Charlie Haden", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Jazz great Charlie Haden", "question_index": 9, "text": "That's Charlie Haden and his triplet daughters - Tanya, Petra and Rachel - from Haden's album, \"Rambling Boy.\" When I spoke with him after the album was released in 2008, I asked him about the biggest surprise on the album - this recording of him at the age of 2, singing on his family's country music radio show, where he was nicknamed Cowboy Charlie. He's introduced by his father.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I hear a voice calling. It must be our Lord. It's coming from heaven on high. I hear a voice calling. I've gained a reward in the land where we never shall die."}
{"id": "1120033909", "date": "2022-08-30", "guest": "Charlie Haden", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Jazz great Charlie Haden", "question_index": 10, "text": "That is just about the most adorable thing I've ever heard,", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right. Thank you, honey friend. That was little 2-year-old Cowboy Charles Edward singing \"Row Us Over The Tide.\""}
{"id": "1120033909", "date": "2022-08-30", "guest": "Charlie Haden", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Jazz great Charlie Haden", "question_index": 11, "text": "especially the yodel. What goes through your mind when you hear it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right. Thank you, honey friend. That was little 2-year-old Cowboy Charles Edward singing \"Row Us Over The Tide.\""}
{"id": "1120033909", "date": "2022-08-30", "guest": "Charlie Haden", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Jazz great Charlie Haden", "question_index": 12, "text": "How old do you think you were before you could sing on pitch?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I remember being there, and I remember my mother holding me, my dad telling me, you know, he's going to go get me a big bottle of soda pop if I sing. You know, it brings back really wonderful memories"}
{"id": "1120033909", "date": "2022-08-30", "guest": "Charlie Haden", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Jazz great Charlie Haden", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I remember being there, and I remember my mother holding me, my dad telling me, you know, he's going to go get me a big bottle of soda pop if I sing. You know, it brings back really wonderful memories"}
{"id": "1120033909", "date": "2022-08-30", "guest": "Charlie Haden", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Jazz great Charlie Haden", "question_index": 14, "text": "God, that's so amazing", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my mom told me this story. She was rocking me to sleep. I'm 22 months old. And she's humming all these hillbilly songs. And all of a sudden, I start humming the harmony, and she said, wow, you'r"}
{"id": "1120033909", "date": "2022-08-30", "guest": "Charlie Haden", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Jazz great Charlie Haden", "question_index": 15, "text": ". So, Charlie, would you share one of your favorite memories of your family's country radio show from when you were, you know, a child?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my mom told me this story. She was rocking me to sleep. I'm 22 months old. And she's humming all these hillbilly songs. And all of a sudden, I start humming the harmony, and she said, wow, you'r"}
{"id": "1120033909", "date": "2022-08-30", "guest": "Charlie Haden", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Jazz great Charlie Haden", "question_index": 16, "text": "What made you think of doing a family album of your own?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Every day was like a great experience for me. I just loved it. I - you know, when we were in Shenandoah, we were there until I was 4, and then we moved to Springfield, Mo. My dad got a farm near my gr"}
{"id": "1120033909", "date": "2022-08-30", "guest": "Charlie Haden", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Jazz great Charlie Haden", "question_index": 17, "text": "Charlie Haden, recorded in 2008. We'll continue our interviews with him in the second half of the show. It's part of our weeklong retrospective of some of our favorite music interviews from our archive. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course, this music's been inside me since I stopped country music and started in jazz when I was 15. And I have this music in me, inside me. And I have always thought about playing and singing agai"}
{"id": "1120033909", "date": "2022-08-30", "guest": "Charlie Haden", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Jazz great Charlie Haden", "question_index": 18, "text": "CHARLIE", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course, this music's been inside me since I stopped country music and started in jazz when I was 15. And I have this music in me, inside me. And I have always thought about playing and singing agai"}
{"id": "1120033909", "date": "2022-08-30", "guest": "Charlie Haden", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Jazz great Charlie Haden", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're continuing our weeklong series of some of our favorite interviews with musicians from our archive. Today, we're listening back to my conversations with the great jazz bass player Charlie Haden. He got off to a musical start at the age of 2, singing on his family's country music radio show. In the late '50s, he kicked off a jazz revolution, playing with the original Ornette Coleman Quartet. He also played beautiful, melodious music. He was incredibly versatile, but one constant was he played from the heart. This is an excerpt of our 1992 interview when he released his album \"Haunted Heart\" with his band Quartet West. The album featured standards and original compositions, evoking the atmosphere of classic film noir and the Los Angeles of the 1940s, as described by Raymond Chandler. Haden moved to LA from Missouri in 1956. Our interview started with this track \"Lady In The Lake\" written by Alan Broadbent, who's featured on piano.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Just seven years ago today was when you said goodbye. It broke my heart to see you go, and yet I could not cry. You kissed me sweet and said goodbye, but I could not believe that you would e"}
{"id": "1120033909", "date": "2022-08-30", "guest": "Charlie Haden", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Jazz great Charlie Haden", "question_index": 20, "text": "Hmm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Just seven years ago today was when you said goodbye. It broke my heart to see you go, and yet I could not cry. You kissed me sweet and said goodbye, but I could not believe that you would e"}
{"id": "1120033909", "date": "2022-08-30", "guest": "Charlie Haden", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Jazz great Charlie Haden", "question_index": 21, "text": "That's great. In the liner notes for the new Quartet West album, you quote a passage from the Raymond Chandler 1949 novel, \"The Little Sister.\" This is a passage about how Los Angeles was changed by Hollywood. Reading that passage about how Los Angeles was changing made me wonder what Los Angeles was like for you when you left the Midwest as a young man to go to Los Angeles.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've always felt that I was born in the wrong era, really. I wanted to be friends with John Garfield, for instance. He was one of the only actors that refused to testify in front of the House Un-Ameri"}
{"id": "1120033909", "date": "2022-08-30", "guest": "Charlie Haden", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Jazz great Charlie Haden", "question_index": 22, "text": "Did you leave home? Or did your family come with you to Los Angeles?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had been raised, you know, in the Midwest and in a small-town, rural kind of thing. And getting into LA was kind of an overwhelming experience for me. It was very, very exciting and very wonderful. "}
{"id": "1120033909", "date": "2022-08-30", "guest": "Charlie Haden", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Jazz great Charlie Haden", "question_index": 23, "text": "You know what I find really interesting? Your first records with Ornette Coleman were regarded as very far-out, very avant-garde, like nothing that had come before, very controversial - not only in jazz, but even people who didn't listen to much jazz found it controversial. And listening to this record and hearing you talk about it, you know, I get a sense of someone who's, really, very much steeped in the past as well. And, you know, you said that you sometimes wish that you had, you know, been part of the '40s, you know, that you thought you were in the wrong era. And I find it kind of paradoxical that on the one hand, you know, your music has been so forward-looking. And on the other hand, you feel so rooted and even nostalgic for the past.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no. I left home. I loved, you know, Missouri and - but it was a very racist part of the country, and I couldn't leave fast enough, to tell you the truth. I knew that there was nothing I could do t"}
{"id": "1120033909", "date": "2022-08-30", "guest": "Charlie Haden", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Jazz great Charlie Haden", "question_index": 24, "text": "Bass player and composer Charlie Haden recorded in 1992. We'll hear a 1996 interview with him after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm-hmm. Well, I think it's very important to live in the present. One of the great things that improvising teaches you is the magic of the moment that you're in and the importance of living in the mo"}
{"id": "1120033909", "date": "2022-08-30", "guest": "Charlie Haden", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Jazz great Charlie Haden", "question_index": 25, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Today, as part of our weeklong series of interviews with musicians from our archive, we're featuring several interviews with the late bass player, composer and bandleader Charlie Haden. This next interview is from 1996, after the release of another album by Haden's band, \"Quartet West.\" Haden loved songs and singers. As a child, he sang on his family's country music radio show. But at the age of 15, he got polio and had to stop singing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm-hmm. Well, I think it's very important to live in the present. One of the great things that improvising teaches you is the magic of the moment that you're in and the importance of living in the mo"}
{"id": "1120033909", "date": "2022-08-30", "guest": "Charlie Haden", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Jazz great Charlie Haden", "question_index": 26, "text": "Charlie Haden recorded in 1996. I don't know what I was thinking when, after hearing about how polio forced him to stop singing, I asked him to sing. Here's what led me to ask.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had bulbar polio, which - there was an epidemic going on in '52. We were in Omaha, Neb. We had a television show there. This was right before my dad retired from music. And I got this virus. And it "}
{"id": "1120033909", "date": "2022-08-30", "guest": "Charlie Haden", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Jazz great Charlie Haden", "question_index": 27, "text": "You end the album with something called \"Now Is The Hour.\" It's the title track of the record. And you say it's a Maori farewell song. How did you learn this song? And tell us something about it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had bulbar polio, which - there was an epidemic going on in '52. We were in Omaha, Neb. We had a television show there. This was right before my dad retired from music. And I got this virus. And it "}
{"id": "1120033909", "date": "2022-08-30", "guest": "Charlie Haden", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Jazz great Charlie Haden", "question_index": 28, "text": "Would you sing the song as you remember it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a very well-known song during World War II because it was - it depicted, you know, the guy going off to war and his wife saying, you know, when you come back, I'll be waiting for you. And - but"}
{"id": "1120033909", "date": "2022-08-30", "guest": "Charlie Haden", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Jazz great Charlie Haden", "question_index": 29, "text": "That's a really lovely song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'll try. (Singing) Now is the hour when we must say goodbye. Soon, you'll be sailing far across the. While you're away, oh, then remember me. When you return, you'll find me waiting here."}
{"id": "1120033909", "date": "2022-08-30", "guest": "Charlie Haden", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Jazz great Charlie Haden", "question_index": 30, "text": "Well, let's hear your version of it on your new CD, \"Now Is The Hour.\" And, Charlie Haden, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think it's beautiful."}
{"id": "1120033909", "date": "2022-08-30", "guest": "Charlie Haden", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Jazz great Charlie Haden", "question_index": 31, "text": "After we recorded that interview, I found out this was the first time Haden had sung in public since polio had forced him to stop singing at the age of 15. According to the liner notes that Orrin Keepnews wrote for a Haden album a couple of years after our interview, it was because I persuaded Haden to sing on FRESH AIR and then called him and urged him to sing on his next album that he actually did. That album was his 1999 album \"The Art Of The Song,\" which featured singers Shirley Horn and Bill Henderson. But the final track featured Haden singing in a small voice, but with deep emotion. It means the world to me that our interview played a part in getting him to sing again. He explained the story from his perspective when we spoke in 1999.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My pleasure, Terry. Thanks for playing the music."}
{"id": "1120033909", "date": "2022-08-30", "guest": "Charlie Haden", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Jazz great Charlie Haden", "question_index": 32, "text": "Well, I want to get to your vocal on your new CD. Your new CD is called \"The Art Of The Song.\" And you chose two of your favorite singers to do most of the performances, Shirley Horn and Bill Henderson. But the last track is you singing. And you, as a rule, don't sing on your CDs. I think this is your first recorded performance outside of the years when you sang with your family. When you were a child, your family had a country group and used to sing on the radio. So tell us the story about how you decided to sing on your own CD.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My pleasure, Terry. Thanks for playing the music."}
{"id": "1120033909", "date": "2022-08-30", "guest": "Charlie Haden", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Jazz great Charlie Haden", "question_index": 33, "text": "What do you mean by that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I stopped singing on our show when I was 15. I developed bulbar polio. And it paralyzed my vocal cords. Eventually, you know, I got my vocal cords back, but I lost the range in my voice. And I used to"}
{"id": "1120033909", "date": "2022-08-30", "guest": "Charlie Haden", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Jazz great Charlie Haden", "question_index": 34, "text": "Well, I really love this. And I'm so glad that you went through with singing it. And listening to it. I was wondering, you know, knowing that you knew the song as a kid and that your mother sang it, when you were a child, what did the words mean to you? The song is just filled with metaphors about death, you know, crossing over the river Jordan. I'm going home to see my mother. I'm going home to see my father. What did you get about that? And what did - was it a frightening song to you, thinking about death, or what?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I said, well, you know, and I even - I called John Philippe Alard (ph), my executive producer in Paris. And I said, you know, I might sing on this record. And there was a big silence. And he sai"}
{"id": "1120033909", "date": "2022-08-30", "guest": "Charlie Haden", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Jazz great Charlie Haden", "question_index": 35, "text": "Well, I do hope you sing more. And I want to thank you for talking with us. And why don't we end with the recording of \"The Wayfaring Stranger\" from your new CD, \"The Art Of Song\" (ph)? And my guest has been Charlie Haden. Thank you, Charlie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it actually is a very soothing song. It's just the opposite in me. It's a song about life. I remember a very funny thing that my mom told me once when I was 4 years old. She was working around our"}
{"id": "1120033909", "date": "2022-08-30", "guest": "Charlie Haden", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Jazz great Charlie Haden", "question_index": 36, "text": "Charlie Haden from his album \"The Art Of The Song.\" It was released in 1999, the year we recorded the interview you just heard. Charlie Haden died in 2014 at the age of 76. Our series of some of our favorite music interviews from our archive will continue tomorrow with Jay-Z and Lizzo. After we take a short break, our TV critic David Bianculli will review the new FX series \"The Patient,\" starring Steve Carell. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I am a poor wayfaring stranger, wondering through this world of woe. And there's no sickness, toil or danger in that bright world to which I go. I'm going home to see my father. I'm going th"}
{"id": "1120245430", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Lizzo", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Lizzo", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I am Terry Gross. We're going to continue our series of interviews with musicians from our archive with Lizzo. Her latest album, \"Special,\" was released earlier this year. The first single, \"About Damn Time,\" became her second song to hit No. 1.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1120245430", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Lizzo", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Lizzo", "question_index": 1, "text": "Lizzo spent years as an under-the-radar musician before rocketing to fame around the time of our 2019 interview. Her song \"Truth Hurts\" hit No. 1 on the Billboard charts in 2019, about two years after its release. She's been nominated for eight Grammys and won three. Lizzo is a self-described big girl. Her backup dancers are big girls, too. Earlier this year, she hosted the Amazon Prime Video reality TV series called \"Lizzo's Watch Out For The Big Grrrls\" in which women competed to be her dancers. When she was in college, Lizzo was studying to become a classical flute player. Although hip-hop and pop won out, she's found a place for her flute in her music. Prince was a fan, and she recorded a track for his 2014 album, \"Plectrumelectrum\" with 3rdeyegirl. We spoke in 2019 just after Lizzo released her album \"Cuz I Love You.\" We started with this track from that album, \"Juice.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Turn up the music. Turn down the lights. I got a feeling I'm going to be all right. OK. OK. All right. It's about damn time. Turn up the music. Let's celebrate. I got a feeling I'm going to "}
{"id": "1120245430", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Lizzo", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Lizzo", "question_index": 2, "text": "Lizzo, welcome to FRESH AIR. I love your new album. Thank you so much for coming. I want to talk a little bit about the production on your album. It's so good, and there's different producers on different tracks. You're a constant on there. But, you know, even though there's different producers for different tracks, the album has a kind of very coherent sensibility to it. Can you talk a little bit about the production and what your role is when deciding what the sound is going to be on each track?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) Mirror, mirror on the wall, don't say it 'cause I know I'm cute. Ooh, baby. Louis down to my drawers, LV all on my shoes. Ooh, baby. I be dripping so much sauce, got to been looking like rag"}
{"id": "1120245430", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Lizzo", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Lizzo", "question_index": 3, "text": "So you play flute. And I'll just start by saying you've played flute, like, on TV and on videos. And a lot of people thought, like, oh, it's dubbed by somebody else. She can't possibly play like that. She's not a classical person.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, as some people may know, I am, you know, classically trained in music theory and music performance. So I have kind of an innate ear and actually a highly skilled ear when it comes to frequency a"}
{"id": "1120245430", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Lizzo", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Lizzo", "question_index": 4, "text": "Yes. You have some very funny videos answering that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1120245430", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Lizzo", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Lizzo", "question_index": 5, "text": "But tell us how you started to play flute. Like, this is - what? - fifth or sixth grade? Did you choose the instrument?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1120245430", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Lizzo", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Lizzo", "question_index": 6, "text": "Or did a teacher say you get to play flute and this other person gets to play trombone?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1120245430", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Lizzo", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Lizzo", "question_index": 7, "text": "Well, how long was it until you started bringing flutes - your flute to gigs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, they chose. The flute chose me. I remember I was in band in fifth grade, and we were sitting down. And there was one girl - her name is Ms. Johnson (ph) - and she was a flute specialist. And I r"}
{"id": "1120245430", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Lizzo", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Lizzo", "question_index": 8, "text": "So how serious were you about a career as a flutist? Flautist? Flautist.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I will say that I was playing the flute in my rock band when I first started playing shows. I played the flute. And we got an - I got nominated for best alternative instrument in the Houston Pre"}
{"id": "1120245430", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Lizzo", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Lizzo", "question_index": 9, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I was very, very, very serious. I studied flute. I played it every night. I - when I was a senior in high school, or a junior, I started studying with the principal flutist of the Houston Opera, a"}
{"id": "1120245430", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Lizzo", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Lizzo", "question_index": 10, "text": "So you grew up in Detroit. What music did you grow up with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I was going to to study flute at the Paris Conservatory. And I was going to really just, you know, wait in line for that first chair. I saw a life of Concert Black and Boston Pops and traveling th"}
{"id": "1120245430", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Lizzo", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Lizzo", "question_index": 11, "text": "Which church?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In Detroit, I grew up with a lot of gospel music. I remember we would listen to \"Perfected Praises\" over and over and over. That was the Marvin Winans' family album. And they would always come out wit"}
{"id": "1120245430", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Lizzo", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Lizzo", "question_index": 12, "text": "So when you weren't listening to secular music, was that because of the church? Did your parents not want secular music in the house?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Church Of God In Christ, which is COGIC."}
{"id": "1120245430", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Lizzo", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Lizzo", "question_index": 13, "text": "OK. So I'm going to play a song that I think really gets you moving. The lyrics are very not spiritual, literally. They're more profane. And I want to play \"Boys.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know? And then at that point, everybody's just running around the church and everyone's shouting. Like, that reaction, that visceral, physical reaction that you see in people, that's driven by "}
{"id": "1120245430", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Lizzo", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Lizzo", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Pfft."}
{"id": "1120245430", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Lizzo", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Lizzo", "question_index": 15, "text": "It gets you moving...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". All right. Let's go. This song..."}
{"id": "1120245430", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Lizzo", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Lizzo", "question_index": 16, "text": "It gets you moving. And in terms of believing in your music, I think this succeeds.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This song..."}
{"id": "1120245430", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Lizzo", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Lizzo", "question_index": 17, "text": "And I know it's quite a segway from what we were talking about, but I see it as connected. So this is \"Boys.\" And it was released first as a single, but it's an extra on the, like, expanded version of your new album...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I will say that this song live, out of all the other songs, get the people stomping. So if you ready to stomp, OK, it's \"Boys.\""}
{"id": "1120245430", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Lizzo", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Lizzo", "question_index": 18, "text": "\"...Cuz I Love You\" - The deluxe version. OK, so here's Lizzo.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Deluxe."}
{"id": "1120245430", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Lizzo", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Lizzo", "question_index": 19, "text": "We'll hear more of my 2019 interview with Lizzo after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Ay, boy, whatcha (ph) say, boy? You tryna (ph) to play coy like a Gameboy? Hit my phone, boy. Is you home, boy? Are you alone, boy? Come get me dome, boy. Got a boy with degrees, a boy in th"}
{"id": "1120245430", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Lizzo", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Lizzo", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 2019 interview with singer and hip-hop artist Lizzo.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Ay, boy, whatcha (ph) say, boy? You tryna (ph) to play coy like a Gameboy? Hit my phone, boy. Is you home, boy? Are you alone, boy? Come get me dome, boy. Got a boy with degrees, a boy in th"}
{"id": "1120245430", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Lizzo", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Lizzo", "question_index": 21, "text": "I know you met Prince when you were living in Minneapolis and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Ay, boy, whatcha (ph) say, boy? You tryna (ph) to play coy like a Gameboy? Hit my phone, boy. Is you home, boy? Are you alone, boy? Come get me dome, boy. Got a boy with degrees, a boy in th"}
{"id": "1120245430", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Lizzo", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Lizzo", "question_index": 22, "text": "Yeah. And you did a track on the - on one of his...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was on his album."}
{"id": "1120245430", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Lizzo", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Lizzo", "question_index": 23, "text": "On \"Plectrumelectrum\" with 3rdeyegirl and - so how did he find you? Because he invited you to perform for him. He asked you then to do a track for \"Plectrumelectrum.\" So I know you - when you moved to Minneapolis after college - after you - dropping out of college, you became a kind of important part of the music scene there. But so how did - how did he find you? How did he hear you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Plectrumelectrum.\""}
{"id": "1120245430", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Lizzo", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Lizzo", "question_index": 24, "text": "Easter Sunday? Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And the email just simply said, I would like for you to come to Paisley Park on Easter Sunday and..."}
{"id": "1120245430", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Lizzo", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Lizzo", "question_index": 25, "text": "OK, so I want to break here and play another song. And this is from your 2016 EP \"Coconut Oil.\" And the song is \"Good as Hell.\" I really love this. I know a lot of people do. Again, I'm going to ask you to talk about, you know, writing it and conceiving the sound.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it was pretty - it was amazing. And to work on a song. And we went and it was magical. And from then on, we had a relationship with Paisley Park and with him where we would just - he would ask u"}
{"id": "1120245430", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Lizzo", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Lizzo", "question_index": 26, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. \"Good As Hell\" was the first time I had written a song that I was like, wow, this song could be on the radio. I never saw myself as, like, a big artist like that, that would have - I was very mu"}
{"id": "1120245430", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Lizzo", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Lizzo", "question_index": 27, "text": "OK. Let's hear it. This is \"Good As Hell\" from Lizzo's EP, \"Coconut Oil.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I was like, really? So this was the beginning of a very beautiful relationship."}
{"id": "1120245430", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Lizzo", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Lizzo", "question_index": 28, "text": "We'll hear more of my 2019 interview with Lizzo after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I do my hair toss, check my nails. Baby, how you feeling? Feeling good as hell. Hair toss, check my nails. Baby how you feeling? Feeling good as hell. Woo child, tired of the bullshit. Go on"}
{"id": "1120245430", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Lizzo", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Lizzo", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with singer and musician Lizzo in 2019.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I do my hair toss, check my nails. Baby, how you feeling? Feeling good as hell. Hair toss, check my nails. Baby how you feeling? Feeling good as hell. Woo child, tired of the bullshit. Go on"}
{"id": "1120245430", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Lizzo", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Lizzo", "question_index": 30, "text": "So, you know, I read that when you were in, I guess, middle school that there was a period when you used to, like, put plastic wrap around your tummy and around your feet to make them smaller, kind of like girdling them. Can you compare your mindset about yourself physically then to what it is now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I do my hair toss, check my nails. Baby, how you feeling? Feeling good as hell. Hair toss, check my nails. Baby how you feeling? Feeling good as hell. Woo child, tired of the bullshit. Go on"}
{"id": "1120245430", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Lizzo", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Lizzo", "question_index": 31, "text": "I just want to ask you about one more song and it's called \"My Skin,\" and I want you to talk about the song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's wild, right? I would go out of my way to - I would tape my feet up because I read about it. I read that women in, like, Asia would bind their feet. And, you know, I'm in middle school reading abo"}
{"id": "1120245430", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Lizzo", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Lizzo", "question_index": 32, "text": "Literally?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"My Skin\" is a song that I wrote. And it was - I would like to say that this was the beginning of my body positive songwriting journey. I wrote it because someone asked a question. (Singing) Someone a"}
{"id": "1120245430", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Lizzo", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Lizzo", "question_index": 33, "text": "Lizzo, thank you so much for talking with us. And thank you for your music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was rope swinging into the river. And I am just so heavy, and the rope - I fell off the rope and fell on the ground. It was really scary and traumatizing. I'll never do anything like that again. But"}
{"id": "1120245430", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Lizzo", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Lizzo", "question_index": 34, "text": "My interview with Lizzo was recorded in 2019 after the release of her album \"Cuz I Love You.\" Her latest album, \"Special,\" was released earlier this year.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1120245430", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Lizzo", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Lizzo", "question_index": 35, "text": "Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, as we continue our weeklong series of interviews with musicians from our archive, we'll feature songwriter and singer Rosanne Cash. In 1973, when she was 18, her father, Johnny Cash, gave her a list of 100 essential country songs. I spoke with her in 2009 after she recorded 12 of those songs on her album \"The List.\" I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) Real world, big girl meets world. A crazy position, now your dreams is your mission, huh. Staring in the mirror, realizing, wish it worked. Now all I wish is for a chance to give my kids a F"}
{"id": "1120245430", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Lizzo", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Lizzo", "question_index": 36, "text": "Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) Girl, I'm about to have a panic attack. I did the work. It didn't work. That truth, it hurts. Goddam, it hurts. That lovey-dovey, was not a fan of it. I'm good with my friends. I don't want "}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I am Terry Gross. We're continuing our series of favorite music interviews from our archive with Jay-Z and Lizzo. First, we have Jay-Z, who's been incredibly successful as a rapper and an entrepreneur. We spoke in 2010 after he published his memoir, \"Decoded,\" in which he wrote about growing up in a housing project and watching crack destroy his neighborhood. He sold drugs before finding success in the recording studio and on stage. His book also tells the stories behind 36 of his songs. He holds the record for the most No. 1 albums by a solo artist on the Billboard 200. In 2017, Jay-Z became the first rapper to be inducted into the Songwriters Hall of Fame. His 2009 record with Alicia Keys, \"Empire State Of Mind,\" became something of a New York anthem. He's also known as Beyonce's husband. Let's start with one of Jay-Z's signature songs, \"Izzo (H.O.V.A),\" from his 2001 album, \"The Blueprint.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) Big pimping, baby. It's big pimping, spending G's. Feel me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Feel me."}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 1, "text": "Jay-Z, welcome to FRESH AIR. It's great to have you on our show. So what were your first rhymes like? You - like, you got your first boombox when you were 9. Your mother gave it to you, you say, because she thought it would help keep you out of trouble?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Welcome, ladies and gentlemen, to the eighth wonder of the world. The flow of the century - oh, it's timeless. Hov (ph). Thanks for coming out tonight. You could have been anywhere in the world, but y"}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 2, "text": "So - but you were about 9 when you wrote that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. Just so - you know, if I was focusing on music, you know, I wouldn't be, you know, running the streets all wild. So she tried to encourage me to pursue my dreams in music early on. And my "}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 3, "text": "OK, so provocative is a pretty big word for a kid who's that age. You write how you started reading the dictionary, like, looking for cool words to use. Did you find that word in the dictionary? Or did you already know that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, yeah, between 9 and 11. Those were my first rhymes."}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 4, "text": "Would you describe the Marcy projects in Bedford-Stuyvesant where you grew up, in Brooklyn?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I found that in the dictionary. Look, I had a sixth grade teacher, Ms. Lowden, that was very pivotal to my hunger for wanting to know the English language and, you know, discov"}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 5, "text": "How old were you when crack came to the neighborhood?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You have these three columns of buildings with four people on each floor - six floors. You know, so you have people to the left of you, right of you, top - on top and on the bottom of you. It's "}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 6, "text": "And how did that change the projects?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was about '85, so I had to be - a little earlier than that, so maybe about 12, 13 years old."}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 7, "text": "And it changed everything for you because you - and you write about this in the book, and, you know, you've rapped about it, too. You ended up being a hustler. You ended up selling crack and helping your mother, as a single mother, support the family. You describe in the book how when you first started writing rhymes, you had a notebook. But when you were hustling on the street, you weren't carrying your notebook with you. And if a rhyme came to you that you wanted to remember, what would you do? You'd go to the store. Tell the story how you'd go to the store to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it - what it changed most was - you know, they have a saying: it takes a village to raise a child. It changed the authority figure because, you know, with crack cocaine, it was done so o"}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 8, "text": "And what about now? Do you write down rhymes when they come to you? or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. What happened was I wrote so much in this book. I would sit at my table for hours and hours till my mother made me go to bed. And it was, like, this obsession with words and with writing. And as"}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 9, "text": "And your memory's as good now as it was then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I haven't since my first album."}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. Well, I've lost plenty material. It's not the best way."}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wouldn't advise it to anyone. I've lost a couple albums worth of great material."}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 12, "text": "So what was the turning point in your life that got you out of hustling and into the recording studio?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I thought they were great - when I couldn't remember them. You know, to think about how, you know, when you can't remember a word and it drives you crazy, like, man, I got to think about this. Y"}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 13, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded with JAY-Z in 2010. We'll hear more of the interview after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was, like, events that would happen over the years. You know, I went to a guy named Clark Kent - by the name of Clark Kent. I made a couple of demos with him, and then I would leave back into the s"}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 2010 interview with JAY-Z, recorded after the publication of his memoir, \"Decoded.\" Let's talk about another one of your tracks. I want to play \"Hard Knock Life,\" which really surprised me when I first heard it because you sample the song \"Hard Knock Life\" from the Broadway show \"Annie,\" which I thought was a real surprise -", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was, like, events that would happen over the years. You know, I went to a guy named Clark Kent - by the name of Clark Kent. I made a couple of demos with him, and then I would leave back into the s"}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 15, "text": "surprising choice...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was, like, events that would happen over the years. You know, I went to a guy named Clark Kent - by the name of Clark Kent. I made a couple of demos with him, and then I would leave back into the s"}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 16, "text": "...For you. Yes, to say the least.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To say the least."}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 17, "text": "So how did you decide to use that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 18, "text": "So let's hear the song, and then we'll talk some more about it. So this is \"Hard Knock Life (Ghetto Anthem)\" by JAY-Z.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what happened was, my sister's name is Andrea Carter. And we call her Annie for short. So when the TV version of the play, you know, it came on and it was like, this is a story called \"Annie,\" I"}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 19, "text": "That's \"Hard Knock Life (Ghetto Anthem)\" by my guest, JAY-Z, who has a new book called \"Decoded.\" So you tell a great story in the book about how you got the rights to use that song, to use the song from \"Annie,\" \"Hard Knock Life.\" Would you tell the story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Take the bass line out. Jigga. Let it bump, though. (Singing) It\u2019s the hard-knock life for us. It\u2019s the hard-knock life for us. Instead of treated, we get tricked. Instead of kisses, we get kicked. It"}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 20, "text": "But let me stop you because in the book, you say", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Well, I mean, we got the rights already, so it's a bit late, so - 'cause I exaggerated a touch. You know, and it's typical when you have to clear a song, you have to send it - a sampled song, you se"}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 21, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Well, I mean, we got the rights already, so it's a bit late, so - 'cause I exaggerated a touch. You know, and it's typical when you have to clear a song, you have to send it - a sampled song, you se"}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 22, "text": "...That you told the big lie. In the book, you say that you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 23, "text": "You made up that you entered an essay contest. And in the essay, you wrote about the importance of seeing \"Annie\" on Broadway, which you'd never seen on Broadway, in fact...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 24, "text": "...And, you know, all that it meant to you when you saw it on Broadway. And I think you said you, like, won the essay contest. And so you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 25, "text": "So how did - so in other words, you lied a little bit in order to get the rights.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't want you to put the whole thing out there. I was trying to - you know, I could have..."}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 26, "text": "Well, it worked out well for everybody.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It was - you know, it was a bad lie for a good reason."}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 27, "text": "Can I ask you a question you might find weird - but since part of your goal in the book is to kind of explain your generation and explain the music", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 28, "text": "to people. You know how a lot of hip-hop artists, when they're onstage, they kind of like, grab their crotch", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 29, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 30, "text": "Yeah. Like, how did that start? Like, who started that and why is that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I have a great explanation for that."}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 31, "text": "I thought it was kind of the opposite. Like, this stuff is so good", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, a lot a times in hip-hop - like in rock 'n' roll, you'll have bands who tour the world. They get in vans, and they tour the world. And they do rinky-dink clubs. And they get bottles thrown at th"}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 32, "text": ", I'm going to show off. No?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, a lot a times in hip-hop - like in rock 'n' roll, you'll have bands who tour the world. They get in vans, and they tour the world. And they do rinky-dink clubs. And they get bottles thrown at th"}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 33, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, that's what - yeah, they want - that's what we want you to believe."}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 34, "text": "So do you feel like you were onstage before you were prepared for it? Probably not, because you did parties before that. You had experience.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But the reality is - and no one else will admit to this - well, maybe they will - is you're onstage in front of - people are getting put onstage in front of 50,000 people with a record that's a radio "}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 35, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. I kind of went through a rock 'n' roll stage. You know, I kind of was doing parties and learning to perform. The first show I ever did, I just forgot the words. I stood there, and I tried to "}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 36, "text": "So let's play - let's get another song in here.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just didn't know what to do. I didn't - I was, like, in shock."}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 37, "text": "And let's do \"99 Problems.\" We'll do the clean version.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 38, "text": "It's radio, my friend.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Aw."}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 39, "text": "So this is actually based on a story - loosely based on a story that happened to you. Would you explain?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Aw."}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 40, "text": "OK. And we're going to hear the part of this song that deals with the story that you just told.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's based on a generational story as well. There is a higher thing. Like, there was a time where there was a lot of activity going on on the turnpike from New York headed south because there we"}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 41, "text": "And again, it's the clean version, so a lot of the words are going to sound kind of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 42, "text": "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I will say that one of the words that isn't clearly said here because it's distorted - because it's the clean version - is the word b****, which, in the context of this part of the song, means dog because you're talking about K-9 dogs here.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's the second verse, the - where this takes place."}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 43, "text": "Because the K-9...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 44, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that was my..."}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 45, "text": "And is that in spite of the opening part that says, if you're having girl problems, I feel bad for you, son. I've got 99 problems, but the b**** ain't one?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that was the writer in me being provocative 'cause that's what rap should be as well, you know, at times. That was really directed to all the people who hear buzzwords in rap music. They hear b***"}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 46, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that was to lead the listener down the wrong path if you were looking for that sort of thing."}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 47, "text": "So here's \"99 Problems\" by my guest, JAY-Z", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 48, "text": "That was \"99 Problems\" by my guest, JAY-Z. Do we have time for the other 98 problems?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hit me. (Rapping) The year's '94. In my trunk is raw. In my rearview mirror is the mother-[expletive] law. I got two choices, y'all, pull over the car or bounce on the devil, put the pedal to the floo"}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 49, "text": "No.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hit me. (Rapping) The year's '94. In my trunk is raw. In my rearview mirror is the mother-[expletive] law. I got two choices, y'all, pull over the car or bounce on the devil, put the pedal to the floo"}
{"id": "1120246214", "date": "2022-08-31", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Rap icon Jay-Z", "question_index": 50, "text": "My interview with JAY-Z was recorded in 2010. After a short break, we'll hear my 2019 interview with rapper, singer and classically trained flute player Lizzo. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, if you can get it in 9 minutes."}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. This week, we're featuring some of our favorite music interviews from our archive. Today, we'll hear an interview with singer and songwriter Rosanne Cash. She started out recording country music, had several No. 1 hits and won a Grammy but then left Nashville and established herself as a singer-songwriter in the world of indie rock. Since then, Cash has worked across many musical genres, including country, rock, folk, pop and American roots. She's won four Grammys and was nominated for 12 others. In 1973, when she was 18, her father, Johnny Cash, gave her a list of 100 essential country songs he thought she needed to know. At the time, she was more interested in writing her own songs than interpreting the songs of others. But in 2009, she returned to her father's list and recorded 12 of the songs on it. I spoke with her when that album, called \"The List,\" was released. We started with a song from the album, a song called \"Sea Of Heartbreak.\" Bruce Springsteen sings on this one.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 1, "text": "Rosanne Cash, welcome back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) The sea of heartbreak, lost love and loneliness, memories of your caress, so divine, I wish you were mine again, my dear. I'm on the sea of tears, the sea of heartbreak"}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 2, "text": "Tell me why you wanted to record this record. We'll get to the whole list in a second. But of all the songs on \"The List,\" why \"Sea Of Heartbreak?\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 3, "text": "It's amazing. The lyric was written by Hal David, who wrote the lyrics for so many Burt Bacharach songs. So he's not exactly Mr. Country Music, Mr. Nashville", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Why this - why \"Sea Of Heartbreak\"? It's kind of a perfectly constructed country song. And it was on the list, so, you know, that gave me permission. And it's - it embodies that longing that is in so "}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Why this - why \"Sea Of Heartbreak\"? It's kind of a perfectly constructed country song. And it was on the list, so, you know, that gave me permission. And it's - it embodies that longing that is in so "}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 5, "text": "Your father has a good recording of this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. And, you know, I myself thought that Don Gibson had written it - because he had the early, definitive version of the song - and then found out that Hal David and Paul Hampton wrote it in New York."}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 6, "text": "Now you have Bruce Springsteen singing with you on this one. Is he a friend?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He does. You know, not being disloyal, but I have to say, I still prefer the Don Gibson version. And, you know, my dad recorded his version with Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers on \"Unchained,\" and he "}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 7, "text": "Why did you ask him to duet on this song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I couldn't call him a friend. I've met him a few times over the years, but it would be presumptuous to say he's a friend."}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 8, "text": "And he said yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We knew we wanted to do a duet, so I did my part on \"Sea Of Heartbreak.\" We go, God, who's the perfect person to ask to sing on this song? Who's, like, the embodiment of American romantic male voice? "}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 9, "text": "So let's get the story of the list. Your album is called \"The List,\" and there's a story behind it. So would you tell the story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He said yes. I thought, oh, there's a 50/50 chance Bruce will do it. And then, you know, he knew the song. He'd got the concept of the list. He's so steeped in country music, anyway, and roots music. "}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 10, "text": "When you say you went about learning those songs, did you get the sheet music or get the records? How did you learn them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. When I was 18 years old, I went on the road with my dad after I graduated from high school. And we were riding on the tour bus one day, kind of rolling through the south, and he mentioned a song"}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 11, "text": "So you finally realized later in life that your father had given you a piece of himself and a piece of his own kind of genetic makeup when he gave you this list of 100 songs. But when he gave you that list, did you immediately think, thanks, Dad, or was it more like, thanks, Dad?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "because he had them all at his fingertips. You could say, well, how does this one go? And he'd pick up a guitar and sing it to me. And then some I knew the records, you know. Like, I had known Ray Cha"}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 12, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like an 18-year-old would do?"}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 13, "text": "Now, do you still have that piece of paper that the list was on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I - you know, if he had given it to me even a couple years earlier, I might have said, oh, yeah, eye roll, thanks, Dad. But I wanted this. I wanted him. You know, my parents were divorced. I was j"}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 14, "text": "So what did you do with the piece of paper now? Is it, like, framed? Is it preserved? Where do you keep it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do. I found it again in 2000 - late 2005, when I was writing the narratives for my last record. It was \"Black Cadillac,\" and I wrote narratives for the show. And I found the list in 2005, and I thou"}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well, I want to play another song from the list, and this is a great song. I love this song that Patsy Cline made famous. It's called \"She's Got You.\" And of all the songs on the list, why did you want to do this one?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I don't want anyone else to do Volume 2."}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 16, "text": "Oh, right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's a classic country song. Anyone who knows country music knows this song. Unfortunately, they also know Patsy Cline's version, which is so iconic that I had some trouble getting past that to "}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yeah. And, I guess, what do you do to put yourself in the mood to feel the song? I mean, you're married. You know what I mean? Like, you're not...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's a classic country song. Anyone who knows country music knows this song. Unfortunately, they also know Patsy Cline's version, which is so iconic that I had some trouble getting past that to "}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 18, "text": "You're not a teenager anymore. You're married, so - well, maybe that's a presumptuous question. Maybe I should just drop that 'cause...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 19, "text": "That's my guest, Rosanne Cash, singing \"She's Got You,\" a song made famous by Patsy Cline, a song featured on Rosanne Cash's CD called \"The List,\" which is songs selected from the list of 100 essential songs that her father, Johnny Cash, gave to her when she was 18. When your father gave you that list, when you were 18, how deep were you into country music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I've got your picture that you gave to me. And it's signed with love just like it used to be. The only thing different, the only thing new - I've got your picture, she's got you. I've got th"}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 20, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not very. I was, you know, president of my Beatles fan club when I was 11."}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 21, "text": "Is this where I ask who your favorite Beatle was?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I was, indeed. And I, like, you know..."}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 22, "text": "OK, good", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 23, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 24, "text": "My guest is Rosanne Cash. We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I - you know, I grew up in Southern California. I was very well-versed in Southern California pop and rock and Buffalo Springfield and Neil Young and Elton John and Janis Joplin and then Joni Mitc"}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 25, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with singer and songwriter Rosanne Cash. We spoke in 2009 when she released her album \"The List.\" It featured 12 songs from the list of 100 essential country songs that her father, Johnny Cash, made for her.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I - you know, I grew up in Southern California. I was very well-versed in Southern California pop and rock and Buffalo Springfield and Neil Young and Elton John and Janis Joplin and then Joni Mitc"}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 26, "text": "You've had this list of 100 country music songs that your father gave you since you were 18. So you've had this since the early '70s.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I - you know, I grew up in Southern California. I was very well-versed in Southern California pop and rock and Buffalo Springfield and Neil Young and Elton John and Janis Joplin and then Joni Mitc"}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 27, "text": "Why now? Why record them now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "'73."}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 28, "text": "I was thinking you might feel that way because - is it because they owned the songs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It's OK when you're in your 20s. It's not OK when you're in your 40s. So it was partly that, my knee-jerk reaction against doing anything that traded on my dad's name. Then I started to realize, thi"}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 29, "text": "You mentioned that you had your own brush with mortality. And I know that you had brain surgery.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, if they did, they passed them on. But it's also because you're not - well, I wasn't so interested in legacy until they were gone. I wasn't so interested in what they left me until they weren't h"}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 30, "text": "How long ago was this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 31, "text": "Would you explain what the problem was that necessitated the surgery?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was November 27."}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 32, "text": "And any time somebody enters your brain for surgery, it's really, really risky.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 33, "text": "Were you terrified before the surgery?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 34, "text": "What about the recovery on the other end? I mean, you're so steeped in your senses, in - you know, in writing, which you do a lot of, both songs and books. You're completing a memoir now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My morbid sense of humor really got me through this, I have to say."}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 35, "text": "In listening, which you do a lot of. In singing. So, I mean, were your senses altered in a way that was either interesting or disturbing after the surgery, during the period of recovery?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 36, "text": "Wait. What does that mean? That...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 37, "text": "Singer and songwriter Rosanne Cash, recorded in 2009. We'll hear more of our interview after a break, as we continue our weeklong series of some of our favorite interviews with musicians from the archive. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I loved that. That's the letter I'm going to frame."}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 38, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross, back with more of my interview with singer and songwriter Rosanne Cash, known for her work in country indie rock, folk and American roots music. She's been awarded Grammys and Gold Records and has been inducted into the Nashville Songwriters Hall of Fame. We spoke in 2009, when her album, \"The List,\" was released. It featured 12 songs from the list of a hundred essential country songs that her father, Johnny Cash, compiled for her. He made it in 1973, when she was 18 and on the road with him. When we left off, we were talking about how she had recovered from brain surgery she had undergone to correct a structural abnormality. The surgery was in 2007, a couple of years before our interview was recorded.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I'm growing tired of the big-city lights, tired of the glamor and tired of the sights. In all of my dreams, I am roaming once more back to my home on the old river shore. I am sad and weary,"}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 39, "text": "You know, you mentioned that before the surgery, you had headaches, like, really severe headaches. I find that the one time when I can't enjoy music, when I want nothing to do with music is when I have a bad headache. And when I think of you going through - was it long period, right, when you had these bad headaches? How did you do music? Did you have any room in your head where it was pleasurable to make or listen to music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I'm growing tired of the big-city lights, tired of the glamor and tired of the sights. In all of my dreams, I am roaming once more back to my home on the old river shore. I am sad and weary,"}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 40, "text": "Well, I think we should hear another song from your new CD, \"The List.\" And I thought this might be a good spot to hear \"500 Miles.\" And I have to say - I was telling you this before we started the interview - if I went through the rest of my life and every hearing this song again, I'd be fine, I thought, until I heard your version. You know, I think so many of us know the Peter, Paul and Mary version, which we heard so many times. And when I was learning folk guitar and doing a terrible job at it, this was one of the songs that I learned to massacre, which is part of the reason why I could go through the rest of my life not hearing it again. But you do this, like, desolate version of it. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's interesting. I listened to a lot more classical music in the two years before the surgery because it seemed - it was more soothing to me. And, you know, I could digest it better. But a lot of t"}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 41, "text": "They are desolate, but - and your husband is playing organ behind you. And it's this really, like, eerie, lonely organ. It almost sounds like it's being played backwards. It's just so odd. And it's really just a haunting version.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. The lyrics are desolate."}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 42, "text": "OK. Well, let's hear it. And this is my guest, Rosanne Cash, singing \"500 Miles.\" Her husband, John Leventhal, is playing organ behind, her and he plays a lot of the instruments and did the arranging for the CD. It's from the album \"The List,\" which features songs from a list of a hundred essential American songs that her father, Johnny Cash, gave her when she was 18. So here's \"500 Miles.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we wanted to get it very churchy, and we wanted to bring out all of the loneliness of the lyrics, because the lyrics are really sad. And I knew Bobby Bear's version better than I knew Peter, Pau"}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 43, "text": "That's Rosanne Cash from her CD, \"The List,\" which features songs from a list of a hundred essential songs that her father, Johnny Cash, gave her. You know, before hearing that song, we were talking about the brain surgery that you had. And I was wondering what you've turned to in recent years to just kind of give you strength. And just to fill listeners in, it's been a difficult few years. You lost your mother. You lost your father. You lost your stepmother, June Carter Cash. There were three years where you could barely speak and couldn't sing because of polyps on your vocal cords. And then there was the brain surgery that we talked about. It's been a rough period. And when people go through rough times, I mean, some people turn to religion. Some people turn to drugs or alcohol. Some people have nothing to turn to. Some people are lost. Some people find this inner strength. Looking at your father, I mean, there's been times and there were times in your father's life when he turned to drugs or pills. And - but through all his life, I think he had a sense of Jesus in his life. Your mother was, I think, a pretty devout Catholic.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) If you miss the train I'm on, then you'll know that I have gone. You can hear the whistle blow - a hundred miles, a hundred miles, a hundred miles, a hundred miles, 100 miles. You can hear t"}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 44, "text": "Yeah. So what about you? Like, what have you had that has kept you - got you through all of this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was."}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 45, "text": "Good. If I'm ever making an album, I'm going to call him, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- the pronouncements of small children. I, you know, I'm not the type to turn to religion in that way. I'm not the type to turn to drugs and alcohol. But I do have a profound devotion to art and music"}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 46, "text": "So you mentioned, you know, art and music as what you turn to as, like - how that's kind of your religion. So what were some of the things that you read or listened to or watched during the period of recovery when you needed that kind of nourishment?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh. That's cute."}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 47, "text": "Oh, wait. Let me stop you right there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Joan Didion's \"Year Of Magical Thinking\" was great. I read the book, and I went to see Vanessa Redgrave perform it. And that was..."}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 48, "text": "That is a - I love that book. It was so hard to read it 'cause it's all - it's a journal of the year she lost her husband. It is so painful. So when - what was healing about reading that really painful book?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 49, "text": "What else?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I loved it. I found - I know a lot of people found it really difficult and kind of depressing. But I loved her very meticulous documentation of the little moments of insanity that happened durin"}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 50, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I loved it. I told you, I have a morbid sense of humor."}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 51, "text": "Oh, wow. Did you - after grieving for your parents, did you go through a period feeling like you were grieving for yourself because your brain was being compromised, your life was in jeopardy, your ability to be who you are was in jeopardy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But it was just amazing, you know, because we used to express all of these things in art, you know? - the madness and the despair and the depression. And now we just medicate it away. But it was all t"}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 52, "text": "Absolutely.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I was angry at my parents when I had to have brain surgery that they weren't still around. Because no matter how old you are, you want your parents when you're going through..."}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 53, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Something like that."}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 54, "text": "You never had the feeling of being resentful or envious of everybody else who didn't have to go through the brain surgery that you were about to go through?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I - yeah. Did I grieve for myself? No. I kind of thought, well, why not me? I have good health insurance. You know, I don't have to show up to a 9-to-5 job. I - you know, it - I didn't have that f"}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 55, "text": "Is that how you feel?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's..."}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 56, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that's exactly how I feel."}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 57, "text": "Getting back to the list of songs again that your father gave you, did you love the same songs on that list after the surgery that you loved before? Was there any - did your taste change?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, but not that I always lose. It's that if - the process of comparing yourself to someone else, you're setting yourself up to not feel good. So I don't bother."}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 58, "text": "My guest is Rosanne Cash. We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm. I love them more now. I love everything more now. I know that sounds like a cliche, but I do. But I love these songs so much, and they keep getting deeper and broader and more poetic and more ful"}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 59, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Rosanne Cash. She's known for singing her own songs, but she released a CD called \"The List\" on which she sang some of the songs from the list of 100 essential songs that her father, Johnny Cash, made for her back in 1973 when she was 18. We spoke when the album \"The List\" was released in 2009.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm. I love them more now. I love everything more now. I know that sounds like a cliche, but I do. But I love these songs so much, and they keep getting deeper and broader and more poetic and more ful"}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 60, "text": "I want to play another song from your new album, and I was thinking of \"Girl From The North Country.\" I think you do a beautiful job of this. Bob Dylan wrote it. It was on his 1969 \"Freewheelin'\" album - 1962, I mean. What year is it? More like '62, probably. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm. I love them more now. I love everything more now. I know that sounds like a cliche, but I do. But I love these songs so much, and they keep getting deeper and broader and more poetic and more ful"}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 61, "text": "Yeah, I think it's, like, '62.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's earlier than '69."}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 62, "text": "That was '69, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "'Cause they did \"Nashville Skyline\" in '69."}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 63, "text": "So in '69, your father recorded it with Dylan on Dylan's \"Nashville Skyline\" album. So why did you choose this one for your own?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 64, "text": "That's Rosanne Cash singing Dylan's \"Girl From The North Country,\" from her new CD \"The List,\" which is songs from a list of 100 great American songs, essential country songs, that her father, Johnny Cash, gave her when she was 18 years old. You know, I think it's really interesting that you're doing this album of songs by other people because you're best known as a singer-songwriter. You do your own songs. And this kind of frees you up to just be the singer and the interpreter and also to sing other people's melodies, which I think must be kind of refreshing in its own way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) If you're traveling in the north country fair, where the winds hit heavy on the borderline, remember me to the one who lives there. She once was a true love of mine. If you go when the snowf"}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 65, "text": "You know, it's interesting that you've done this album of covers. John Doe did an album of classic country covers. Loudon Wainwright just did an album of Charlie Poole songs. So you know, the three of you are famous as songwriters. And within a period of months, you're turning to other people's songs. I just find that so interesting. And all of those albums I just mentioned are really good.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it is. It is. It was a little scary at first because I didn't ever want to put my voice front and center, you know? I was a songwriter. That was the torch I carried. This is an honorable profess"}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 66, "text": "Oh, I really agree with you. When we last spoke, it was 2006, maybe. And this was after you had started singing again after your three-year bout of not being able to sing because of polyps on your vocal cords. And in that interview, you said that when you had the polyps, you vowed that if you recovered that you would give up all the anxiety that you had surrounding singing...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there is a cannon of American music that maybe an entire generation doesn't know that well, you know, people who weren't around to hear Patsy Cline's version of \"She's Got You\" or a song like \"T"}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 67, "text": "...And just kind of enjoy singing and enjoy, you know, the talents that you had. So did that work out? Have you been able to just...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Laughing)."}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 68, "text": "As you've released this album of you singing other people's songs, have you been able to just enjoy singing without the attendant anxieties?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 69, "text": "You did.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "?"}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 70, "text": "You're welcome.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 71, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I did give up a lot of the anxiety. I'm not a person who will ever entirely give up anxiety. I mean, it kind of fuels my..."}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 72, "text": "My guest is Rosanne Cash. We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But I did stop the criticism. That's what I stopped, the self-criticism. You know, if I miss a note, if I can't sustain it as long as I want, you know, if my diaphragm gives away or something, I'd j"}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 73, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're listening to an interview from our archive with singer and songwriter Rosanne Cash. We spoke in 2009 when she released her album \"The List,\" featuring songs from the list of 100 essential country songs that her father, Johnny Cash, compiled for her. He made that list in 1973 when she was 18 and on the road with him. She's Cash's oldest child. Her mother was his first wife.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But I did stop the criticism. That's what I stopped, the self-criticism. You know, if I miss a note, if I can't sustain it as long as I want, you know, if my diaphragm gives away or something, I'd j"}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 74, "text": "Your father lived his life onstage; your mother didn't. Where do you fit in in terms of comfort level onstage and in terms of, like, having a public component of your life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But I did stop the criticism. That's what I stopped, the self-criticism. You know, if I miss a note, if I can't sustain it as long as I want, you know, if my diaphragm gives away or something, I'd j"}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 75, "text": "Wow. That's really confusing, isn't it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I'm a bit more comfortable. But you're right. My mother was very, very private, and my dad lived out his best self onstage. So I have both of those examples, you know? Don't tell anybody anything, "}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 76, "text": "Well, I'm glad you found that comfort zone for yourself, that you found where the line is. I want to close with another track from \"The List,\" but since I've chosen everything so far, I thought I'd be generous and let you choose one.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is. So I've had to work it out for myself. And what I do is both. I have a great private life. I don't, you know, divulge everything. I find that incredibly distasteful. And I love performing."}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 77, "text": "I'm letting you choose.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Do you want something sad and slow and ballad-y (ph) or something a little more up?"}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 78, "text": "Rosanne Cash, it's just been wonderful to talk with you again. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. \"Motherless Children\" - this song is one of the oldest songs on \"The List,\" and it was amazing how many people had done it, everyone from Billie Holiday to the Louvin Brothers to Eric Clapton. The"}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 79, "text": "My interview with singer and songwriter Rosanne Cash was recorded in 2009.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's my pleasure, Terry. Thank you for having me."}
{"id": "1120507413", "date": "2022-09-01", "guest": "Rosanne Cash", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Singer-songwriter Rosanne Cash", "question_index": 80, "text": "Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, more favorite music interviews from the FRESH AIR archive. We'll hear Smokey Robinson talking about writing hits like \"Shop Around\" and \"You Really Got A Hold On Me\" and starting Motown with Berry Gordy, and Isaac Hayes talking about writing the hit \"Soul Man\" for Sam & Dave and writing and performing the theme for \"Shaft.\" I hope you'll join us. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Motherless children have a hard time when the mother is gone. Motherless children have a hard time when the mother is gone. Motherless children have a hard time. There's all that weeping and"}
{"id": "1120722907", "date": "2022-09-02", "guest": "Smokey Robinson", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Motown legend Smokey Robinson", "question_index": 0, "text": "So when he critiqued your songs after you sang a bunch for him, what did he say?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My No. 1 singing idol was Jackie Wilson, which was how I actually met Berry Gordy because the group that turned out to be The Miracles - and I went for an audition for Jackie Wilson's managers in Detr"}
{"id": "1120722907", "date": "2022-09-02", "guest": "Smokey Robinson", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Motown legend Smokey Robinson", "question_index": 1, "text": "You and Berry Gordy co-wrote \"Got A Job,\" and then he wrote your first big hit - right? - which was \"Shop Around.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, Terry, I could always rhyme. From the time I was a little kid, I could always rhyme stuff. But my songs at that time didn't complete an idea. I would have a great rhymed up first verse"}
{"id": "1120722907", "date": "2022-09-02", "guest": "Smokey Robinson", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Motown legend Smokey Robinson", "question_index": 2, "text": "No, he did not write that. You wrote it. Why did I think he wrote it? Did he take credit for that? Did I just read that wrong?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, he did not. I wrote it."}
{"id": "1120722907", "date": "2022-09-02", "guest": "Smokey Robinson", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Motown legend Smokey Robinson", "question_index": 3, "text": "I'm taking credit away from you", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know why you thought that. No."}
{"id": "1120722907", "date": "2022-09-02", "guest": "Smokey Robinson", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Motown legend Smokey Robinson", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know why you thought that. No."}
{"id": "1120722907", "date": "2022-09-02", "guest": "Smokey Robinson", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Motown legend Smokey Robinson", "question_index": 5, "text": "So when Berry Gordy called you in the middle of the night and said, oh, we're going to do it over, it's too slow, did - were you insulted?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no. What happened with \"Shop Around\" was the fact that we had a big hit on a guy named Barrett Strong, \"Money (That's What I Want).\" And Berry had - we had just started Motown, basically. You "}
{"id": "1120722907", "date": "2022-09-02", "guest": "Smokey Robinson", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Motown legend Smokey Robinson", "question_index": 6, "text": "Well, I guess we'd better hear it. This is \"Shop Around,\" Smokey Robinson and the Miracles, recorded in 1960.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I was not insulted. I just said, man, are you crazy? He said, no, I might be, but this is what we're going to do. The first thing he said to me was, hey, Smoke. I said, yeah, man. He said, this is"}
{"id": "1120722907", "date": "2022-09-02", "guest": "Smokey Robinson", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Motown legend Smokey Robinson", "question_index": 7, "text": "Now, the story goes that you suggested to Berry Gordy that he start his own record company, and that's how he started at Tamla, which eventually transformed into Motown. Did you suggest that? And if so, why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) When I became of age, my mother called me to the side. She said, son, you're growing up now? Pretty soon you'll take a ride. And then she said, just because you've become a young man now, th"}
{"id": "1120722907", "date": "2022-09-02", "guest": "Smokey Robinson", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Motown legend Smokey Robinson", "question_index": 8, "text": "And did you start doing anything different in the studio when it was really your own operation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I did, because in the beginning when we first got with Berry, he was - like I said, he was a songwriter and a producer, and he would produce records on the Miracles and me and his other artists "}
{"id": "1120722907", "date": "2022-09-02", "guest": "Smokey Robinson", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Motown legend Smokey Robinson", "question_index": 9, "text": "And \"Shop Around\" was, like, the first big hit for Motown, wasn't it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No. We just wanted to make good music. The first day of Motown, there were five of us there. There was Berry Gordy plus four other people. And we were there. And Berry said, we are not going to ma"}
{"id": "1120722907", "date": "2022-09-02", "guest": "Smokey Robinson", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Motown legend Smokey Robinson", "question_index": 10, "text": "I want to move on to another big hit for you, which is \"You Really Got A Hold On Me\" from 1962. And this is something you wrote and produced. Is there a story behind the song?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. This week, we're listening to some of our favorite music interviews from the FRESH AIR archive. Let's get back to Terry's conversation with Smokey Robinson, recorded in 2006."}
{"id": "1120722907", "date": "2022-09-02", "guest": "Smokey Robinson", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Motown legend Smokey Robinson", "question_index": 11, "text": "Is your songwriting process like that, that you have an idea, and then the song just comes out, but first you have, like, a hook?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Sam Cooke, who turned out to be one of my friends, was my No. 2 singing idol. I told you, Jackie Wilson was my No. 1 singing idol as a kid growing up. And Sam Cooke was my No. 2 singing idol. An"}
{"id": "1120722907", "date": "2022-09-02", "guest": "Smokey Robinson", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Motown legend Smokey Robinson", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, this is \"You Really Got A Hold On Me\" from 1962, Smokey Robinson and the Miracles.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, not necessarily the hook first. You know, there's no pattern. There is no songwriting pattern. You know, sometimes I'll have some chords that I play on the piano that inspire a song. Sometimes I"}
{"id": "1120722907", "date": "2022-09-02", "guest": "Smokey Robinson", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Motown legend Smokey Robinson", "question_index": 13, "text": "SMOKEY", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, not necessarily the hook first. You know, there's no pattern. There is no songwriting pattern. You know, sometimes I'll have some chords that I play on the piano that inspire a song. Sometimes I"}
{"id": "1120722907", "date": "2022-09-02", "guest": "Smokey Robinson", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Motown legend Smokey Robinson", "question_index": 14, "text": "You were producing as well as writing and recording at Motown. What did you like about producing other people's records, like The Temptations, for instance?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I don't like you, but I love you. Seems that I'm always thinking of you. Though you treat me badly, I love you madly. You really got a hold on me. You really got a hold on me. You really got"}
{"id": "1120722907", "date": "2022-09-02", "guest": "Smokey Robinson", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Motown legend Smokey Robinson", "question_index": 15, "text": "You know, I'm going to ask you about \"Since I Lost My Baby,\" which is one of my Temptations favorites. Did you write that for the group?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Terry, I have always enjoyed working with other people and trying to get hits on them. And if I accomplished that, I felt very, very, very good to have a positive effect on one of my brothers' a"}
{"id": "1120722907", "date": "2022-09-02", "guest": "Smokey Robinson", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Motown legend Smokey Robinson", "question_index": 16, "text": "And what aspect of them were you writing it for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I did. Yes, I did."}
{"id": "1120722907", "date": "2022-09-02", "guest": "Smokey Robinson", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Motown legend Smokey Robinson", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yeah, there's sunshine on a cloudy day, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"The Way You Do The Things You Do\" was the first hit record that I ever wrote for The Temptations. I had been writing a couple other songs for them when they first came to Motown. And so they were lik"}
{"id": "1120722907", "date": "2022-09-02", "guest": "Smokey Robinson", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Motown legend Smokey Robinson", "question_index": 18, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I got sunshine because..."}
{"id": "1120722907", "date": "2022-09-02", "guest": "Smokey Robinson", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Motown legend Smokey Robinson", "question_index": 19, "text": "And did you work out the harmonies on this as the producer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I got my girl, you know what I mean? So that was just the opposite of \"Since I Lost My Baby.\" Because since I lost my baby, everything is going right. But it's not right because I have lost my woma"}
{"id": "1120722907", "date": "2022-09-02", "guest": "Smokey Robinson", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Motown legend Smokey Robinson", "question_index": 20, "text": "OK, well, this is The Temptations. This song is written and the record is produced by my guest, Smokey Robinson.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, because The Temptations were very, very, very, very creative in doing their own background vocals. I would be sitting at the piano showing the lead vocal how the song went - with the exception of "}
{"id": "1120722907", "date": "2022-09-02", "guest": "Smokey Robinson", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Motown legend Smokey Robinson", "question_index": 21, "text": "Let me get back to your music. There's one more song of yours I really want to ask you about, and that's \"Tracks Of My Tears,\" which is one of your very greatest. What's the story behind this song and how you wrote it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Sun a-shining. There's plenty of light. A new day is dawning, sunny and bright. But after I've been crying all night, the sun is cold, and the new day seems old. Since I lost my baby, since "}
{"id": "1120722907", "date": "2022-09-02", "guest": "Smokey Robinson", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Motown legend Smokey Robinson", "question_index": 22, "text": "That's really good.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Tracks Of My Tears,\" like many of the songs that I've written, was introduced to the world by my guitar player, Marv Tarplin. Marv Tarplin does music. And he's not a lyricist, but he does music. He d"}
{"id": "1120722907", "date": "2022-09-02", "guest": "Smokey Robinson", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Motown legend Smokey Robinson", "question_index": 23, "text": "SMOKEY", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Tracks Of My Tears,\" like many of the songs that I've written, was introduced to the world by my guitar player, Marv Tarplin. Marv Tarplin does music. And he's not a lyricist, but he does music. He d"}
{"id": "1120724428", "date": "2022-09-02", "guest": "Isaac Hayes", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 0, "text": "Now, I know before you started making your own records, before you started singing in your records, you produced for other people. And also, you played piano and keyboards. You used to play with Booker T and The MG's. Now, how did you learn to play piano, growing up as poor as you did - I know there were times in your life when you didn't have shoes, let alone a piano?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The movie \"Shaft\" helped launched the blaxploitation genre of the '70s. The Academy Award-winning theme was composed and performed by Isaac Hayes. In the '60s, Hayes helped shape the sound of Memphis "}
{"id": "1120724428", "date": "2022-09-02", "guest": "Isaac Hayes", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 1, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's true. How did I do that? Well, let's see. A friend of mine, I grew up with, Sidney Kirk - used to be like accompanists. We went places and he'd play for me. He joined the Air Force. He wasn't t"}
{"id": "1120724428", "date": "2022-09-02", "guest": "Isaac Hayes", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 2, "text": "Well, that's great. And then you started sitting in with Booker T and the MG's.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And somewhere along the line, the club owner, he was sauced. He came up and said, you know, you boys sound real good. Y'all want a regular job? Yeah, we'll take it. And that was in Memphis. And it was"}
{"id": "1120724428", "date": "2022-09-02", "guest": "Isaac Hayes", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 3, "text": "Now, you were not only a house musician at Stax, you became a house songwriter. And you wrote a lot of songs with your partner then, David Porter. And some of the most famous songs that you wrote were for Sam & Dave, like \"Soul Man\" and \"Hold On, I'm Coming.\" How were you given them to write for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I wound up at Stax Records. I changed bands, and I joined Floyd Newman's band, who was a staff musician at Stax. He played baritone saxophone. All those ba-daps (ph) stuff like that - that was F"}
{"id": "1120724428", "date": "2022-09-02", "guest": "Isaac Hayes", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 4, "text": "What do you remember about writing \"Soul Man\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first thing, David, when I started at Stax on staff, David and I went to rival school singing rival groups. And he said, hey, man. I write lyrics and you play music. Let's hook up and write like"}
{"id": "1120724428", "date": "2022-09-02", "guest": "Isaac Hayes", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 5, "text": "So did you arrange this, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I remember getting the idea from watching TV and the riots in Detroit. And it was said that if you put soul on your door, your business establishment, they would bypass it, wouldn't burn it. And"}
{"id": "1120724428", "date": "2022-09-02", "guest": "Isaac Hayes", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 6, "text": "And are you featured instrumentally?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1120724428", "date": "2022-09-02", "guest": "Isaac Hayes", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 7, "text": "OK. Well, let's hear \"Soul Man,\" co-written by my guest, Isaac Hayes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wasn't featured. I just played piano on it. Well, you know, I did some little hot licks in there and stuff like that, so..."}
{"id": "1120724428", "date": "2022-09-02", "guest": "Isaac Hayes", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 8, "text": "So how come it took several years for you to actually record your own vocals?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Coming to you on a dusty road. Good loving - I got a truckload. And when you get it, you got something. So don't worry 'cause I'm coming. I'm a soul man. Oh. I'm a soul man. I'm a soul man. "}
{"id": "1120724428", "date": "2022-09-02", "guest": "Isaac Hayes", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 9, "text": "Mmm-hmm (ph).", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, remember I told you about Nat Cole's story, right?"}
{"id": "1120724428", "date": "2022-09-02", "guest": "Isaac Hayes", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I started singing in high school. I sang before - Nat Cole - when I sang, looking back, that was in the ninth grade. But before ninth grade, preteen, I used to sing, but I sounded like somebody "}
{"id": "1120724428", "date": "2022-09-02", "guest": "Isaac Hayes", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 11, "text": "Now, you recorded the theme for the movie \"Shaft\" in - I guess it was 1971. How were you asked to do this?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. This week we're listening to some of our favorite music interviews from the FRESH AIR archive. Let's get back to Terry's conversation with Isaac Hayes recorded in 1994."}
{"id": "1120724428", "date": "2022-09-02", "guest": "Isaac Hayes", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was a whole concept. Hollywood recognized that they had to look further than they had been looking to get business. I think it was fledgling at the time. It was a bit stagnant. And Melvin Van"}
{"id": "1120724428", "date": "2022-09-02", "guest": "Isaac Hayes", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 13, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But anyway, I think that was a stick and carrot, you know? So..."}
{"id": "1120724428", "date": "2022-09-02", "guest": "Isaac Hayes", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 14, "text": "And here's where we really get into orchestrating, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I agreed to do the music. They had already cast Richard Roundtree, which was rightfully so. He's perfect for the part. And I agreed to do the music. And that's how I - that's how that whole thing, "}
{"id": "1120724428", "date": "2022-09-02", "guest": "Isaac Hayes", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 15, "text": "So tell me how you started using that wah-wah guitar funk style.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm-hmm."}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I am Terry Gross. We're going to conclude our series of interviews with musicians from the FRESH AIR archive with Bruce Springsteen and hear the interview I recorded with him in his home studio in New Jersey not far from where he grew up. It was back in 2016 when his memoir had just been published. The book shares the title of his most famous song, \"Born To Run.\" The theme of that anthem is escape. But in much of the book, Springsteen reflects on how he and his music were shaped by home, roots, blood, community, freedom and responsibility. We started with a track from his album \"Chapter And Verse\" that serves as an audio companion to his memoir with a selection of songs that span his career. It includes this demo version of his song \"Growin' Up.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 1, "text": "Bruce Springsteen, welcome to FRESH AIR, and thank you for welcoming us into your studio. I'd love it if you would start by reading the very opening from the foreword of your book. It's really a fantastic book, and I'd like our listeners to just hear a little bit of your writing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Well, I stood stone-like at midnight, suspended in my masquerade. I combed my hair till it was just right and commanded the night brigade. I was open to pain and crossed by the rain. And I w"}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 2, "text": "Thanks for reading that. So what's it like for you to write something that doesn't have to rhyme and that you don't have to perform on stage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. My pleasure. (Reading) I come from a boardwalk town where almost everything is tinged with a bit of fraud. So am I. By 20, no race-car-driving rebel, I was a guitar player on the streets of Asbury"}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 3, "text": "Well, that's one of the things I love about the book, is that there is rhythm and music in it even though it's not a song. So many of your songs, particularly the early ones, are about, you know, like, searching for a dream and running to, like, bust out of the confines of your life. And in some ways, you know, I get the impression from your book that that was your father's story except he never found the dream. It's kind of like - a little bit like the story that you describe in your song \"The River.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's actually - not having to perform it on stage is a good one. But it's a little different, you know? It's - I'm used to writing something; it becomes a record; it comes out. Then, I go perform, a"}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 4, "text": "'Cause when you were 19, he moved to California. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it was just incredible for everybody. So you're correct that my parents did really sort of live out a big part of that story. And to a certain degree, he did find his little piece of what he"}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 5, "text": "You're talking about mental illness?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, they moved out west, which was a huge undertaking because no one - it was like moving to another planet for them. But I think that's what my father wanted to do. He wanted to move to another pla"}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 6, "text": "Do you think the song \"Born To Run\" is, in part, about him and, in part, about you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, difficult to manage. But I believe he did feel like he found something there that he couldn't have found at home."}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 7, "text": "Except you had a dream in a way that your father - maybe he didn't have a dream that he could articulate?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But what do you know? And looking back on it, my parents lived out quite a bit of that story themselves."}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 8, "text": "Yeah. Yeah. So you write, too, about your father, that he was kind of very - let me quote you 'cause you put it so well. You write that - (reading) he loved me, but he couldn't stand me. He felt we competed for my mother's affections. We did. He also saw in me too much of his real self. Inside, beyond his rage, he harbored a gentleness, timidity, shyness and a dreamy insecurity. These were things I wore on the outside. And the reflection of these qualities in his boy repelled him. I was soft, and he hated soft. Of course, he'd been brought up soft, a mama's boy just like me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It certainly wasn't one he could articulate. It was just, I got to get out of here."}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 9, "text": "So that timidity and shyness that you wore on the outside - it's kind of, like, the opposite of your stage persona.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yeah. Can you tell us a little bit more about the timidity and shyness of your youth?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know. It's bizarre."}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 11, "text": "So do you think that your stage persona draws both from, like, the angry and uninhibited side of you and the more inhibited, timid side of you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I got to take my - I've got to take some blame for that myself, I guess. But, yeah, just - that was - when I was young, you know, I was very shy, and that was my personality, you know? I was a pret"}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 12, "text": "We're listening back to my 2016 interview with Bruce Springsteen. We'll hear more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's both there. I think if you just - you know, I think that plenty of folks - if you just looked at the outside, it can read - you know, it's pretty alpha male, you know, which is - it's a l"}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with Bruce Springsteen in 2016 in his home studio just after the publication of his memoir, \"Born To Run.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's both there. I think if you just - you know, I think that plenty of folks - if you just looked at the outside, it can read - you know, it's pretty alpha male, you know, which is - it's a l"}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 14, "text": "During your early years as a musician, you were in Asbury Park - boardwalk, carnival atmosphere. What did you love about that kind of urban beach, you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's both there. I think if you just - you know, I think that plenty of folks - if you just looked at the outside, it can read - you know, it's pretty alpha male, you know, which is - it's a l"}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 15, "text": "And the, you know, Madame Marie and all of the - like, all the boardwalk regulars - you made great stories out of those characters, great songs out of those characters. But what appealed to you about knowing them and writing about them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 16, "text": "But you connected in some way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was just my location at the time. I didn't move to Asbury with the thought of - you know, it wasn't an anthropological..."}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 17, "text": "And that's one of the things that really interests me comparing you to Dylan because when you first started, people were comparing you to Dylan, one of the new Dylans and everything.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Reason. But I went, and I just fit in there. Asbury was down on its luck but not as bad as it would get. And so there was a lot of room to move. You know, clubs were open till 5 a.m. There were gay"}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 18, "text": "In some ways, like, persona-wise, you're the opposite. He changed his name. He surrounded himself in mystery. His lyrics are very obscure. Your lyrics tell stories. You're all about a place. You reveal so much about yourself and the world around you in your songs. You know what I mean? Like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 19, "text": "I know that you're more than what you literally tell us about in the songs, but still, you have an identity and try to tell us something of who you are in your songs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 20, "text": "I want to quote you again. So you write - this is toward the beginning of your career. (Reading) I wanted to be a voice that reflected experience and the world I live in. So I knew in 1972 that to do this, I would need to write very well and more individually than I had ever written before. And this was - at some point, you realized, too, that although you had, like, the most popular bar band in Asbury Park, that there was a bigger world, there was a lot of talented people...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You just go where your psychology leads you. I think, you know, I've always loved the fact that Bob's been able to sustain his mystery over 50 or 60 years. That's - in this day and age, that's quite a"}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 21, "text": "...And in order to, like, be someone in that world - to have a career, to make a difference - that you had to figure out what was unique about you, and you had to write great songs. And in fact, you achieved that. You wrote great songs. But, you know, how did you go about trying to write the best songs that you could, I mean, when you knew that a lot of this was going to depend on the songwriting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 22, "text": "We'll hear more of my 2016 interview with Bruce Springsteen after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I thought about signing a record deal or writing something that might put me in the position - 'cause I'd had already had plenty of things that had fallen through with my rock bands - I looked at"}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with Bruce Springsteen in 2016 in his home studio just after his memoir, \"Born To Run,\" was published.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I thought about signing a record deal or writing something that might put me in the position - 'cause I'd had already had plenty of things that had fallen through with my rock bands - I looked at"}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 24, "text": "You started going to therapy in 1983. And at some point - you say in your 60s you had a really bad depression. And I'm wondering if you thought about, during that period when you were very depressed, how many people in the world really wanted to be you and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I thought about signing a record deal or writing something that might put me in the position - 'cause I'd had already had plenty of things that had fallen through with my rock bands - I looked at"}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 25, "text": "Yeah. Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Doesn't count for that much at the time."}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 26, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know? But, of course, you know, people see you on stage and - yeah, I'd want to be that guy. I want to be that guy myself very often, you know?"}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know? I get plenty of days where I go, man, I wish I could be that guy."}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 28, "text": "You write about - you write - I'm sorry?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, you know, it's not quite - there's a big difference between what you see on stage and then my general daily - my daily existence."}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 29, "text": "Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I'm talking to myself."}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 30, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Don't let that bother you."}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 31, "text": "You write about how being on stage is almost like medicine for you, you know.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's part of my illness. I do it all the time."}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 32, "text": "Does it get you out of yourself? Does it...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 33, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, of course. You're immediately pulled out of your - the inside of your head, and it immediately changes your frame of mind. I have never been on stage where I've - no, that's not true. I have been "}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 34, "text": "During the depression, there was a period of a year and a half when you weren't on the road. You were home with one of your sons. I guess with your youngest?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's just nothing weirder you can do. If you're up there thinking about what you're doing, you're just not there, and it's not going to happen, you know? So trying to learn how to overcome those, w"}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 35, "text": "Did that contribute to the depression because you couldn't be on stage and you couldn't have that kind of cathartic experience?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm hmm."}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 36, "text": "As you mentioned in your book, you wanted to write songs that you wouldn't outgrow, that you could sing as an adult...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I tend to be not my own best company. I can get a little lost when I - if I don't have my work to occasionally focus me. But at the same time, you've got to be able to figure that out. The year "}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 37, "text": "...That weren't just kids songs and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 38, "text": "...You know, done, accomplished", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 39, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 40, "text": "But when you sing some of your early songs now, as you still do, like \"Born To Run,\" does the song have a different meaning to you than it did when you first started, you know, performing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 41, "text": "What's an example of a song that's taken on a different meaning or more meaning for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We just had a series of concerts where the show was very interesting 'cause we'd start out with my earliest material, and we played about half a record off of our first record and then half or three-q"}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 42, "text": "As someone who grew up in Brooklyn and now lives in Philadelphia, I love that you've continued to live in New Jersey, not only in New Jersey but not far from where you grew up. Why have you stayed close to the home that your father left? Your father went to the opposite coast...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A lot of the ones that are people's favorites. You know, \"Born To Run,\" that expands every time we go out. It just seems to - you know, more of your life fills it in, fills in the story. And when we h"}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 43, "text": "...When you were a teenager.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's ironic, yeah. They..."}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 44, "text": "Bruce Springsteen, I can't thank you enough for...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's rather ironic. But I just felt very comfortable here. And I was uncomfortable with city life. I was more or less a kid that came out of a small town, and I was a beach bum and loved the ocean and"}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 45, "text": "...Inviting us into your studio and allowing us to do this interview.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 46, "text": "Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you very much."}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 47, "text": "And I really love the book", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very enjoyable. I appreciate it."}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 48, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very enjoyable. I appreciate it."}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 49, "text": "My interview with Bruce Springsteen was recorded in his home studio in 2016 after the publication of his memoir, \"Born To Run.\" And that concludes our series of interviews with musicians from the FRESH AIR archive. We hope you enjoyed it. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be tennis great John McEnroe, known for his epic matches with Bjorn Borg, his outbursts at umpires and his new careers as a TV tennis analyst and as the narrator on the hit Netflix series \"Never Have I Ever.\" McEnroe is the subject of a new Showtime documentary. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks a lot."}
{"id": "1120733098", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Bruce Springsteen", "question_index": 50, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) The screen door slams. Mary's dress sways. Like a vision, she dances across the porch as the radio plays. Roy Orbison singing for the lonely. Hey, that's me, and I want you only. Don't turn "}
{"id": "1120734736", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Pete Seeger", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Pete Seeger", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today we conclude our series of interviews with musicians from the FRESH AIR archive. Since today is Labor Day, we've pulled out our interview with Pete Seeger, who is famous for singing songs about working people, unions and social justice. Seeger is one of the most important figures in the history of American folk music. He popularized Woody Guthrie's song \"This Land Is Your Land\" and wrote \"If I Had A Hammer\" and \"Turn! Turn! Turn!\" In the 1940s, he sang union songs with the Almanac Singers. A few years later, he co-founded the Weavers, who surprised everyone, including themselves, when they became the first group to bring folk music to the pop charts until they were blacklisted. Seeger refused to answer questions about his politics when he appeared before the House Un-American Activities Committee in 1955. His conviction for contempt of Congress was eventually overturned on appeal. As a young man, Seeger believed songs were a way of binding people to a cause. Here's one of his many labor songs.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1120734736", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Pete Seeger", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Pete Seeger", "question_index": 1, "text": "Pete Seeger kept singing and protesting right through 2011, when he joined a march in support of the Occupy Wall Street protests. For many years, he was also a champion of environmental causes. When I spoke to Pete Seeger in 1984, he told me about how much he was influenced by Woody Guthrie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) When you go to work, well, you work like the devil. At the end of the week, you're not on the level. Payday comes, you ain't got a penny 'cause when you pay your bills, you got so many. I'm "}
{"id": "1120734736", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Pete Seeger", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Pete Seeger", "question_index": 2, "text": "Was it hard to learn how to jump a railroad car?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Woody showed me how to hitchhike and how to ride freight trains, how to sing in saloons. I said, what kind of songs do you sing? Well, he said, this year, here's five or six tunes that are nearly alwa"}
{"id": "1120734736", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Pete Seeger", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Pete Seeger", "question_index": 3, "text": "You started doing a lot of performing for unions in union halls and even on picket lines. How did you all come up with the songs that you thought would really speak to the people who were there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Right in front of the microphone. That was Woody Guthrie."}
{"id": "1120734736", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Pete Seeger", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Pete Seeger", "question_index": 4, "text": "In 1949, you were one of the people who were supposed to perform at the Paul Robeson concert in Peekskill.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "With long discussion. When I met Lee Hays, I met one of the few geniuses I've met in my life. We were always talking and thinking of what kind of songs were needed. We'd be trying out this and trying "}
{"id": "1120734736", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Pete Seeger", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Pete Seeger", "question_index": 5, "text": "You and many of the people there were...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. I sang \"If I Had A Hammer\" and \"T For Texas.\" I forgot what else. \"We Shall Not Be Moved,\" maybe."}
{"id": "1120734736", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Pete Seeger", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Pete Seeger", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And we had stones thrown at us."}
{"id": "1120734736", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Pete Seeger", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Pete Seeger", "question_index": 7, "text": "Had he been hurt?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a pretty horrifying day. A lot of people thought, this is the beginning of American fascism. This is how Hitler got started. I was just one of 10,000 people. There were 20,000. It was a huge cr"}
{"id": "1120734736", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Pete Seeger", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Pete Seeger", "question_index": 8, "text": "When you look back - I don't know about how many times before that you had been confronted with that kind of direct violence. How did you behave during it? And are you satisfied with the way you behaved when you look back?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah - well, he would have been killed if I hadn't moved on."}
{"id": "1120734736", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Pete Seeger", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Pete Seeger", "question_index": 9, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded with Pete Seeger in 1984. We'll hear more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm sure that in retrospect you can just think how the things we did wrong - but knowing what I knew then, why - I think we did the right thing. And I was of the opinion then that the average Am"}
{"id": "1120734736", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Pete Seeger", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Pete Seeger", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with Pete Seeger in 1984.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm sure that in retrospect you can just think how the things we did wrong - but knowing what I knew then, why - I think we did the right thing. And I was of the opinion then that the average Am"}
{"id": "1120734736", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Pete Seeger", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Pete Seeger", "question_index": 11, "text": "During the 1950s when you were performing with the Weavers, I think that, initially, you performed at a lot of demonstrations and union halls and outside. And then, you made a decision to start trying nightclubs. Was that a big crisis to actually decide...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm sure that in retrospect you can just think how the things we did wrong - but knowing what I knew then, why - I think we did the right thing. And I was of the opinion then that the average Am"}
{"id": "1120734736", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Pete Seeger", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Pete Seeger", "question_index": 12, "text": "...To move into the clubs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh."}
{"id": "1120734736", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Pete Seeger", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Pete Seeger", "question_index": 13, "text": "Were you really surprised when your record started getting played on the radio and became big hits?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We - that was a soul-searching. In one sense, I felt we was going into enemy territory. Why should I want to contribute to the nightclub scene, which I thought was anathema? I come from old New Englan"}
{"id": "1120734736", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Pete Seeger", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Pete Seeger", "question_index": 14, "text": "That might have made it even more difficult than when you were blacklisted.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, we never expected to get on the hit parade. And to everybody's surprise, including the head of Decca Records, \"Goodnight, Irene\" sold 2 million copies in the summer of 1950. It was the biggest se"}
{"id": "1120734736", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Pete Seeger", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Pete Seeger", "question_index": 15, "text": "You wanted to sing a song to the committee, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it made difficult for the blacklisters. But I didn't expect to last 10 minutes. I thought the blacklisters would be after us a lot sooner. It took them a couple years to chop us down. And it was"}
{"id": "1120734736", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Pete Seeger", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Pete Seeger", "question_index": 16, "text": "I'm speaking with Pete Seeger, if you're just joining us. Have the wounds ever healed among the folk musicians who were friendly witnesses and those who weren't before HUAC?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I did. They questioned me about a song. I said, oh, that's a good song. I'll sing it to you. Well, no. They didn't want me to sing. They wanted to know where I had sung it - at the following p"}
{"id": "1120734736", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Pete Seeger", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Pete Seeger", "question_index": 17, "text": "Well, that honor kept you off of television for many years afterwards. How did you feel around the early '60s when the folk music boom started taking off, when finally folk music had become commercially viable and you were, in a way, prevented from participating in it because you weren't allowed on radio or TV?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess it's been harder for the friendly witnesses. History has not been kind to the Un-American Activities Committee. It feels as I felt, that these people didn't love America so much as their own p"}
{"id": "1120734736", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Pete Seeger", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Pete Seeger", "question_index": 18, "text": "Well, take a song like \"If I Had A Hammer.\" That is, I think, one of the most recorded songs in the world. I mean, hundreds of people have recorded it, right? But when you had first written it, it was considered a very dangerous song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was mad. I wrote some articles in Sing Out! magazine warning people that this ABC television show called \"Hootenanny\" would be kind of a travesty on what a real hootenanny would be. A real hoo"}
{"id": "1120734736", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Pete Seeger", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Pete Seeger", "question_index": 19, "text": "What was considered dangerous about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "1120734736", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Pete Seeger", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Pete Seeger", "question_index": 20, "text": "Your work has inspired thousands and thousands of Americans of different generations, and you could have, if you wanted to, really, like, played that role to the hilt of, you know, like, the father of the modern American folk music movement.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hard to say. Talk about freedom and justice, maybe. It's hard to say, hard to say. And if you tried to pin people down, well, they'd just say, that's one of these commie songs. I'm sure in the Souther"}
{"id": "1120734736", "date": "2022-09-05", "guest": "Pete Seeger", "title": "Fresh Air's summer music interviews: Pete Seeger", "question_index": 21, "text": "My interview with Pete Seeger was recorded in 1984. He died in 2014 at the age of 94. After we take a short break, we'll hear the interview I recorded with Bruce Springsteen in 2016 after the publication of his memoir, \"Born To Run.\" Springsteen recorded an entire album of songs associated with Pete Seeger. Here's one of them. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I would have known it was a lie. My main purpose as a musician has been to get people singing and get people to make music by themselves. And it's the only reason I keep singing is because I'm a s"}
{"id": "1121983742", "date": "2022-09-09", "guest": "Anne Garrels", "title": "Remembering NPR international correspondent Anne Garrels", "question_index": 0, "text": "I am one of your many, many listeners who thought, oh, my God, she's going to stay during the bombing. That's got to be dangerous. I'm worried. Were you not worried?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first of all, I don't think any of us realized so many journalists would leave. There were about 500 journalists in Baghdad up until just a few days before the - President Bush's deadline. And i"}
{"id": "1121983742", "date": "2022-09-09", "guest": "Anne Garrels", "title": "Remembering NPR international correspondent Anne Garrels", "question_index": 1, "text": "Really? What did you find out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was too - of course, I was worried. And there were moments that I was terrified. But I was too busy for the most part to be really scared. I had to file morning, noon and night. A lot of what I was "}
{"id": "1121983742", "date": "2022-09-09", "guest": "Anne Garrels", "title": "Remembering NPR international correspondent Anne Garrels", "question_index": 2, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I found out from the man I call Amer, who was my Iraqi driver, that, in fact, the Iraqi Information Ministry was coming to him a great deal at the end. They thought that I was CIA. I also since "}
{"id": "1121983742", "date": "2022-09-09", "guest": "Anne Garrels", "title": "Remembering NPR international correspondent Anne Garrels", "question_index": 3, "text": "Anne, when you decided to stay in Iraq during the actual bombing, knowing that most of the journalists were leaving, did you feel, like, an even greater responsibility, a special responsibility, to do the most thorough reporting that you could because there were so few journalistic voices that were going to be able to report from the war?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, she's not doing anything. You know - right. I mean, just playing on every sort of Iraqi prejudice. And then I went to see somebody who had been sort of head of operations at the information "}
{"id": "1121983742", "date": "2022-09-09", "guest": "Anne Garrels", "title": "Remembering NPR international correspondent Anne Garrels", "question_index": 4, "text": "That's true. People would be scared. I mean, as a listener, I could vouch for that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes and no. I had always felt a responsibility, from October on, not to pull my punches. Some journalists were deliberately not reporting certain things in order to stay on. I figured there was - that"}
{"id": "1121983742", "date": "2022-09-09", "guest": "Anne Garrels", "title": "Remembering NPR international correspondent Anne Garrels", "question_index": 5, "text": "What's an example of something you can say now that you couldn't say when it was actually happening because it would have put somebody in jeopardy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And second of all, he said, people just want to hear what it looks like and feels like and smells like. You know, if there's nothing new, just say that. But, you know, you will be on the air every cyc"}
{"id": "1121983742", "date": "2022-09-09", "guest": "Anne Garrels", "title": "Remembering NPR international correspondent Anne Garrels", "question_index": 6, "text": "And this is your translator and driver.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, very clearly, the way Amer worked with me. He told me things that..."}
{"id": "1121983742", "date": "2022-09-09", "guest": "Anne Garrels", "title": "Remembering NPR international correspondent Anne Garrels", "question_index": 7, "text": "You write in your book that the fact that there were few reporters who stayed in Baghdad and that the absence of CNN and Fox and the other large American networks created an intimacy and a lack of hysteria in the coverage. Do you mean a lack of hysteria in what we were seeing in the United States? Or do you also mean that there was a lack of hysteria in the journalist community in Baghdad at the time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I mean, from the very beginning, the first day he worked with me in October, we were driving out of the city, and we suddenly saw this massive crowd of people, hundreds and hundreds of people sta"}
{"id": "1121983742", "date": "2022-09-09", "guest": "Anne Garrels", "title": "Remembering NPR international correspondent Anne Garrels", "question_index": 8, "text": "What did you see?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Both because there's no question that my bosses, everybody's bosses, watch television. And often you're questioned. You know, hey; wait a minute, I saw this on television. And I think a key example of"}
{"id": "1121983742", "date": "2022-09-09", "guest": "Anne Garrels", "title": "Remembering NPR international correspondent Anne Garrels", "question_index": 9, "text": "Let's go back to the time of the bombing in Iraq. That first night of the, quote, \"shock and awe\" campaign, where were you? What did you experience?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're listening to Terry Gross' interview with NPR international correspondent Anne Garrels, who died Wednesday at the age of 71. Terry spoke with Garrels in 2003, when she'd publis"}
{"id": "1121983742", "date": "2022-09-09", "guest": "Anne Garrels", "title": "Remembering NPR international correspondent Anne Garrels", "question_index": 10, "text": "Because the phones were out by some point during the bombing and you had to file - I mean, you really needed your satellite phone. That was your connection to the world, and that was your reason for being there. Without your satellite phone, there's no point in being there 'cause you couldn't file.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so I got on the - I went on the air with Robert Siegel and, you know, tried to - you know, said that, you know, there's bombing. It wasn't - but most of it was anti-aircraft fire at that point. An"}
{"id": "1121983742", "date": "2022-09-09", "guest": "Anne Garrels", "title": "Remembering NPR international correspondent Anne Garrels", "question_index": 11, "text": "And there were a couple of times when the phone dropped - or I should say you dropped the phone or accidentally knocked it over. Did it ever go completely dead? Did you ever completely break it and have nothing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "1121983742", "date": "2022-09-09", "guest": "Anne Garrels", "title": "Remembering NPR international correspondent Anne Garrels", "question_index": 12, "text": "Which was 1 a.m. your time in Baghdad.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, but it's - only thanks to duct tape. That's all I can say. I think by the time I got home, I was completely wrapped in duct tape. I mean, the problem was that we weren't allowed to have our phones"}
{"id": "1121983742", "date": "2022-09-09", "guest": "Anne Garrels", "title": "Remembering NPR international correspondent Anne Garrels", "question_index": 13, "text": "You need to explain the story...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And the thugs used to go around the hallways at that time looking for sat phones. And they'd look to see, you know, lights under the doors. They'd knock. They didn't break in, as a rule. So, you know,"}
{"id": "1121983742", "date": "2022-09-09", "guest": "Anne Garrels", "title": "Remembering NPR international correspondent Anne Garrels", "question_index": 14, "text": "...In case our listeners haven't heard it, for anyone who hasn't heard it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1121983742", "date": "2022-09-09", "guest": "Anne Garrels", "title": "Remembering NPR international correspondent Anne Garrels", "question_index": 15, "text": "And why couldn't you lie and say you were naked without actually being naked?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in a desperate attempt to buy time, I figured, OK, if I broadcast in the dark, they didn't see the light under the door. And if I didn't have any clothes on - they came and knocked - I could com"}
{"id": "1121983742", "date": "2022-09-09", "guest": "Anne Garrels", "title": "Remembering NPR international correspondent Anne Garrels", "question_index": 16, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, for starters, I wasn't sure they would understand English, so I figured - I mean, the guards didn't. So I would have to open the door a crack, you know, poke my head out, and at least have a bar"}
{"id": "1121983742", "date": "2022-09-09", "guest": "Anne Garrels", "title": "Remembering NPR international correspondent Anne Garrels", "question_index": 17, "text": "Oh, I think it's brilliant.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it was a - I - you know, the things you do. It was, you know, clearly a feeble attempt at trying to hide the phone."}
{"id": "1121983742", "date": "2022-09-09", "guest": "Anne Garrels", "title": "Remembering NPR international correspondent Anne Garrels", "question_index": 18, "text": "I think it's brilliant.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I couldn't think of anything else at the time, I can tell you."}
{"id": "1121983742", "date": "2022-09-09", "guest": "Anne Garrels", "title": "Remembering NPR international correspondent Anne Garrels", "question_index": 19, "text": "You write in your book that being a woman, an older woman, over 50 - men generally deal with me as a sexless professional, while women open up in ways they would not with a man. And you you're talking about being a foreign correspondent here. So do you think that being an older woman actually worked in your favor?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. We're listening to Terry's 2003 interview with former NPR international correspondent Anne Garrels. Garrels died Wednesday at the age of 71. Gar"}
{"id": "1121983742", "date": "2022-09-09", "guest": "Anne Garrels", "title": "Remembering NPR international correspondent Anne Garrels", "question_index": 20, "text": "It worked in your favor in a very weird situation. You were getting 10-day visas when you initially got to Iraq. And the first time you had to leave, you had to take - you were told you had to take a mandatory AIDS test at a cost of $200 in order to get out of the country.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. There's no question. You know, whether it was in - I mean, since 9/11, whether it was Afghanistan, where I spent many months, Pakistan, Iraq - no question."}
{"id": "1121983742", "date": "2022-09-09", "guest": "Anne Garrels", "title": "Remembering NPR international correspondent Anne Garrels", "question_index": 21, "text": "So he paid up but didn't take the test.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And what's more, they were going to give us the AIDS test. I mean, it wasn't just, you know, pay for it. I mean, these guys were very enthusiastic that particular day. Or they figured they'd get a lot"}
{"id": "1121983742", "date": "2022-09-09", "guest": "Anne Garrels", "title": "Remembering NPR international correspondent Anne Garrels", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is basically just, like, another bribery scam.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. We managed in the end."}
{"id": "1121983742", "date": "2022-09-09", "guest": "Anne Garrels", "title": "Remembering NPR international correspondent Anne Garrels", "question_index": 23, "text": "So you had to do a lot in the way of bribing. Who pays for the bribe? Do you, like, expense that to NPR when you get home?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And it has always been interesting to me as to why you have to have an AIDS test when you leave the country. But anyway, that's another issue."}
{"id": "1121983742", "date": "2022-09-09", "guest": "Anne Garrels", "title": "Remembering NPR international correspondent Anne Garrels", "question_index": 24, "text": "Right. Is there - does NPR give you guidelines like, you know, a bribe to avoid an AIDS test is worth $300? A bribe to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Much of this. And - but you just try to - I would say that NPR paid less than most news organizations."}
{"id": "1121983742", "date": "2022-09-09", "guest": "Anne Garrels", "title": "Remembering NPR international correspondent Anne Garrels", "question_index": 25, "text": "This is a good reason why I think journalists might be a target for theft because if you're walking around with enough money to be able to bribe officials, it means you've got cash.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, but maybe I should suggest - we'll have this - you know, this - a tally sheet. No. You just fly by the seat of your pants in every - you know, every situation is different, and the needs and deman"}
{"id": "1121983742", "date": "2022-09-09", "guest": "Anne Garrels", "title": "Remembering NPR international correspondent Anne Garrels", "question_index": 26, "text": "Pledge now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...A significant but not overly..."}
{"id": "1121983742", "date": "2022-09-09", "guest": "Anne Garrels", "title": "Remembering NPR international correspondent Anne Garrels", "question_index": 27, "text": "We have to bribe authorities.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Right."}
{"id": "1121983742", "date": "2022-09-09", "guest": "Anne Garrels", "title": "Remembering NPR international correspondent Anne Garrels", "question_index": 28, "text": "It's a good pitch. My guest is NPR foreign correspondent Anne Garrels. Well, this is a good time to reintroduce your husband, Vint Lawrence, who's with us in the studio. And he's a contributor to your book, \"Naked In Baghdad.\" And he has reprinted some of the emails he sent out to friends and family about your whereabouts and your state of mind and health during the war. Vint Lawrence is an artist and has also done a lot of cartoons for The New Republic. Vint, in your emails that you've said...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Right."}
{"id": "1121983742", "date": "2022-09-09", "guest": "Anne Garrels", "title": "Remembering NPR international correspondent Anne Garrels", "question_index": 29, "text": "...In one of them, you make it seem like your wife, Anne Garrels, is very different when she's not functioning in her capacity as reporter. And you say that at home she's slightly muddled, directionally challenged and technologically inept. Would you describe a little bit of the difference you perceive in her when she's kind of on duty and when she's off?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1121983742", "date": "2022-09-09", "guest": "Anne Garrels", "title": "Remembering NPR international correspondent Anne Garrels", "question_index": 30, "text": "Is this going to be embarrassing Annie?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Annie's got..."}
{"id": "1121983742", "date": "2022-09-09", "guest": "Anne Garrels", "title": "Remembering NPR international correspondent Anne Garrels", "question_index": 31, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no."}
{"id": "1121983742", "date": "2022-09-09", "guest": "Anne Garrels", "title": "Remembering NPR international correspondent Anne Garrels", "question_index": 32, "text": "Anne, how do you perceive that difference?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She knows it, anyway. And she's got two gears. She's in a resting gear, or she's in battle mode. And when she comes home, she flips gears. We live two miles outside of a small New England town. There'"}
{"id": "1121983742", "date": "2022-09-09", "guest": "Anne Garrels", "title": "Remembering NPR international correspondent Anne Garrels", "question_index": 33, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There are two different people in some ways. I mean, I - when I'm overseas, I'm alone. And it's 24 hours a day, seven days a week. When I come home, I become very domestic. I mean, I can rely on Vint "}
{"id": "1121983742", "date": "2022-09-09", "guest": "Anne Garrels", "title": "Remembering NPR international correspondent Anne Garrels", "question_index": 34, "text": "How do you cross that threshold between the Anne Garrels who's at home and is directionally challenged and can get lost easily to the Anne Garrels who's going to Iraq for the first time to report on a war where you have to be, you know, incredibly self-sufficient and get around and have instincts? I know you have a driver there, but still, you need instincts. And that sense of anticipation when you're crossing the threshold from home...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Everything I don't do for months on end on the road, you know. I mean, I go from a completely lack of domestic, you know, life to, you know, just being at home and cooking. And - but he gets really"}
{"id": "1121983742", "date": "2022-09-09", "guest": "Anne Garrels", "title": "Remembering NPR international correspondent Anne Garrels", "question_index": 35, "text": "Thank you both so much. And congratulations on the book. And, Anne, thank you for that extraordinary reporting from Iraq.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I get scared every time I go on an assignment. I mean, scared that I won't do it as well as I want to. I mean, there's always just this incredible surge of adrenaline, you know, that - and it - bo"}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Geoffrey Berman, served as U.S. attorney in the Southern District of New York, leading the southern district for two and a half years during the Trump administration. In his new memoir, he writes that Trump's Justice Department kept demanding that Berman use his office to aid the administration politically, and Berman kept declining in ways just tactful enough to keep him from being fired. But after walking the tightrope for 2 1/2 years, he says the rope snapped. Berman was told to resign but resisted and was then forced out in an unconventional way. One of the cases he says that the Justice Department interfered with involved Trump's former personal lawyer, Michael Cohen. Berman also alleges that after the Southern District prosecuted two prominent Trump allies, the DOJ pushed it to prosecute Democratic lawyer Greg Craig before Election Day to, quote, \"even things out.\" The book led Senator Dick Durbin, chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee, to open an investigation last week into Berman's allegations that the Trump Justice Department pressured the Southern District to create positive outcomes for the administration. Berman's memoir is titled \"Holding The Line.\" Geoffrey Berman, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 1, "text": "So Dick Durbin, head of the Senate Judiciary Committee, has opened this investigation into the Justice Department's interference in the Southern District's prosecutions in an attempt to support then-President Trump. Did you expect that? Did you hope for that kind of investigation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you."}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 2, "text": "You served under three attorney generals - Jeff Sessions, then the acting attorney general, Matthew Whitaker and then Bill Barr. What charges do you think are possible?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Terry, it didn't surprise me that there would be a congressional inquiry. I mean, the instances of interference are so unprecedented and outrageous and violate the cardinal rule of the Departmen"}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 3, "text": "What do you think the involvement of Donald Trump will be in this investigation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I haven't really focused on charges or criminal conduct. What my book identifies is a kind of repeated violation of the norms and standards - critical norms and standards that govern t"}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 4, "text": "So you're going to be very interested in the outcome of this, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Donald Trump let everyone know where he stood on issues. His tweeting was ubiquitous. So I'm not sure, you know, with a congressional investigation how many documents are going to be shown to and from"}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 5, "text": "In the introduction, you describe how after the Southern District had prosecuted two high-profile Trump loyalists, Congressman Chris Collins of New York and Michael Cohen, who was Trump's personal lawyer, one of your associates was told it was time to even things out. And the message was to bring criminal charges against Greg Craig, a private attorney who'd once been President Obama's White House counsel. And the charges were supposed to happen before Election Day. So the story behind these charges is complicated. But just give us, like, the really simple version of it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I am."}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 6, "text": "So the person from the Justice Department who gave the order to file criminal charges before Election Day was Edward O'Callaghan. And he denies that. He said that. But if he did, why - I mean, maybe I'm asking the obvious here - but why was that request so out of bounds?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. You know, we were investigating Greg Craig, as you mentioned, a prominent Democrat, former counsel to President Obama. And we get a call. My deputy gets a call from main Justice saying we want y"}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 7, "text": "Another demand that you thought was outrageous from the Justice Department was that you bring charges against John Kerry, who was secretary of state during the Obama administration and negotiated the Iran nuclear deal, the deal that Trump pulled out of. This was the deal that would stop Iran from going any further in its nuclear program. Trump hated that deal pulled out of it after he became president. So you were expected to charge John Kerry with violating the Logan Act. So can you explain the Logan Act and how you were asked to use the Logan Act against John Kerry?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was out of bounds because we're not supposed to base criminal prosecutorial decisions on whether someone is a Republican or a Democrat. And you're not supposed to weigh one against the other."}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then, we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Geoffrey Berman, who was the U.S. attorney in the Southern District of New York during two and a half years of the Trump administration. His new memoir is called \"Holding The Line.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So what happened with John Kerry is that President Trump attacks John Kerry in two tweets, saying that he engaged in possible illegal communications with Iranian officials regarding the Iran nuclear d"}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Geoffrey Berman, who served as U.S. attorney in the Southern District of New York leading the Southern District for two and a half years during the Trump administration. In his new memoir, he writes that Trump's Justice Department kept demanding that Berman use his office to aid the administration politically. His new book is called \"Holding The Line.\" Let's talk about the Michael Cohen case. You were investigating whether hush money was paid through Michael Cohen to porn star Stormy McDaniels (ph) and centerfold Karen McDougal before the 2016 election. And if Trump had funneled money to Michael Cohen as hush money and Michael Cohen put that money into the campaign, this could have been campaign contributions from Cohen to the Trump campaign and would have been illegal campaign contributions. In the investigation charging statement, President Trump was referred to as Individual 1. You had recused yourself from supervising this investigation into Michael Cohen because you had volunteered as a lawyer for the Trump campaign. It would have been perceived as a conflict of interest. But you were involved in preventing the Justice Department from interfering in the case. So how did you personally respond when the Southern District was told, remove references to Individual 1?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So what happened with John Kerry is that President Trump attacks John Kerry in two tweets, saying that he engaged in possible illegal communications with Iranian officials regarding the Iran nuclear d"}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 10, "text": "The Southern District was told to stop all investigative work on the campaign finance allegation. And Bill Barr wanted to wait until the Office of Legal Counsel determined whether there was a legal case for the charges to which Cohen had pleaded guilty and until Barr himself had determined there was sufficient federal interest in pursuing charges against others in this case. So how did that tie your hands? I mean, you weren't allowed to do anything until these determinations were made.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I wasn't involved in the case at that point in time. I became - I was read into the issues with the Cohen case and the campaign finance violations investigation when Bill Barr took office and tr"}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 11, "text": "When I read in your book that Attorney General Bill Barr intervened to temporarily stop and slow down the investigation, I thought of Mar-a-Lago and the top-secret documents there and the judge who ruled there needed to be a special master to go over the documents before the Justice Department could investigate those documents. Were you reminded of that, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For two months, the team that was investigating the campaign finance violations was not allowed by Bill Barr to look at a single document in their possession until Barr resolved these issues to his sa"}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 12, "text": "So to get back to the Michael Cohen case, just remind us what the outcome was.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I certainly was. And look. The revelation that has come from the Department of Justice on the Mar-a-Lago case, that they are criminally investigating Donald Trump and those around Donald Trump not onl"}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 13, "text": "In your book, you write, no one from the Southern District with knowledge of these matters - meaning all the matters in your book - has been interviewed or written about them. This is the first firsthand account of what occurred in the Southern District during the 2 1/2 years that you were its leader. Michael Cohen says that you had an obligation to speak out sooner when Barr was pressuring you on Cohen's case. And he calls your actions or your inaction unethical and quite possibly illegal. So do you think he has a case there? He says that for years, Trump and Barr and the Southern District brought fabricated charges against him for the benefit of then President Trump. And he says his allegations are validated by your book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in the Michael Cohen case, he pled guilty, and he was sentenced. And the investigation into the campaign finance violations was allowed to occur. And it reached a conclusion, and no one was char"}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 14, "text": "At what point did it become ethically OK to reveal what happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, Michael Cohen pled guilty to charges of campaign finance violation and other financial crimes - tax and bank fraud crimes. No one twisted his arm to plead guilty to those things. So I "}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well, it's time for another break. Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Geoffrey Berman, who served as the U.S. attorney at the Southern District of New York for 2 1/2 years during the Trump administration. His new book is \"Holding The Line: Inside The Nation's Preeminent U.S. Attorney's Office And Its Battle With The Trump Justice Department.\" We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "After my congressional testimony, it was unsatisfying because they asked about the various points of interference, and I was prohibited from talking about it. So I went back to the ethics officer at t"}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I am Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Geoffrey Berman, who served as U.S. attorney in the Southern District of New York leading the Southern District for two and a half years during the Trump administration. In his new memoir, he writes that Trump's Justice Department kept demanding that Berman use his office to aid the administration politically. His new book is called \"Holding The Line.\" The book led Senator Dick Durbin, chair of the Senate Judiciary Committee, to open an investigation last week into Berman's allegations that the Justice Department pressured the Southern District to create positive outcomes for the Trump administration. So there's only a certain number of cases that we can cover in this interview. There are more cases in your book. At what point did the Justice Department, Bill Barr specifically, start talking about how it's time for you to go?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "After my congressional testimony, it was unsatisfying because they asked about the various points of interference, and I was prohibited from talking about it. So I went back to the ethics officer at t"}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 17, "text": "Was Jay Clayton considered a Trump ally?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that was June 19, 2020. He called me to a meeting at his suite at The Pierre Hotel in New York. And as soon as the meeting began, he told me that he wanted to make a change in the Southern Distr"}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 18, "text": "So what did Barr specifically ask? And how did you decline?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Jay Clayton was currently the chairman of the Securities and Exchange Commission. But the important thing - and I knew what Barr's agenda was. It wasn't to have someone nominated and confirmed b"}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 19, "text": "Your reaction was what?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Barr asked me to take the position of chief of the Civil Division at Main Justice. And I declined. I said, I'm not interested in that position, and I'm never going to leave the people of the Southern "}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 20, "text": "But as it turns out, you didn't have a choice 'cause you were basically fired. Part 1 was that Barr issued a press release. Tell us what was in the press release.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was just a complete bullying tactic, and it didn't affect me in the least. I thought it was a gross attempt for him to try and bully a resolution of this. But it didn't have the effect he desired. "}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 21, "text": "So what was your reaction to this press release saying that you were resigning when you had told Barr that you were not going to resign? How did you think through what your strategy would be?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Barr issues a press release that Friday night, June 19th, saying that I was stepping down from the position of U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York. And he knew very well that I wasn't "}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 22, "text": "So how were you fired?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My strategy at that point was determining that Barr's plan had to be stopped, that I was not going to allow an outsider to come into the Southern District of New York and take over the investigations "}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 23, "text": "Did the Justice Department try to intervene in any way or interfere in any way with cases that the Southern District was investigating while your deputy was the acting attorney general?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The next day, I received a letter from Bill Barr saying that I was fired by the president and instead of the outsider coming in to take over as acting U.S. attorney, that Audrey Strauss would come in "}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 24, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Geoffrey Berman, who served as the U.S. attorney in the Southern District of New York, leading the southern district for 2 1/2 years during the Trump administration. His new memoir is called \"Holding The Line.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Once I was fired, you know, your contact with the office ceases. And it's a door that closes. And I'm not privy to anything that happened after my firing."}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 25, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Geoffrey Berman, who served as U.S. attorney in the Southern District of New York, leading the southern district for 2 1/2 years during the Trump administration. In his new memoir, he writes that Trump's Justice Department kept demanding that Berman use his office to aid the administration politically. His memoir is called \"Holding The Line.\" Did you ever try to say to Attorney General Bill Barr that he was being unethical in what he was asking you to do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Once I was fired, you know, your contact with the office ceases. And it's a door that closes. And I'm not privy to anything that happened after my firing."}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 26, "text": "And those agreements would have said what?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. There was an incident. And Barr didn't appreciate this very much. But we had great conflict over how to approach Halkbank. Halkbank is a Turkish-owned bank. And it had been involved, allegedly, "}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 27, "text": "So you can give us information, but we're never going to prosecute you for it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They would have said - you know, they would have been very similar to the secret non-prosecution agreement that the Southern District of Florida under Alex Acosta entered in with Jeffrey Epstein. It w"}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 28, "text": "Now, Trump had interests in Turkey. He was close or, you know, reasonably close with the president of Turkey, Erdogan. And he also had Trump Towers in - was it in Istanbul?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's correct."}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 29, "text": "So do you think that that figured into the Justice Department's desire to get this non-prosecution agreement?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 30, "text": "But then, after Turkey sent troops across the border into Syria, that made Trump look bad because Trump had just pulled U.S. troops out of Syria. So what changed at that point after Trump and Erdogan had a falling out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I don't know the specifics. I do know that Trump was reported to be friends and close to Erdogan. And if the prosecution of Halkbank displeased the president, then it displeased Bill Barr. T"}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 31, "text": "Have you thought a lot about what Trump may be guilty of and may be charged with in the future?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. There was a falling out apparently and reportedly between Trump and Erdogan. And at that point, we were given the green light to indict Halkbank. And we did it within 24 hours."}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 32, "text": "You know, reading your book, I just kept thinking about how justice in America or any country depends on people of integrity in positions of power, judges, prosecutors, the Justice Department. So I'm sure that's something you've thought about a lot. Would you like to reflect on that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I'm aware, as everyone is, of, you know, several investigations that are pending now with respect to the president. I have no firsthand knowledge of any one of those investigations. An"}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 33, "text": "Do you think there's any such thing as an impartial judge or justice or Justice Department anymore because things have become so politicized and so many people in those categories are political appointees?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. I think you're absolutely right. And what strikes me when I - in writing the book and looking back over my experiences is just how vulnerable our justice system is, how it does depend on people "}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 34, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Geoffrey Berman, who served as the U.S. attorney at the Southern District of New York for 2 1/2 years during the Trump administration. His new memoir is called \"Holding The Line.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, my job was non-political. And my problems with the Trump administration and with the Department of Justice under Bill Barr is non-political. It's about undermining the rule of law and the ve"}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 35, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jeffrey Berman. In his new memoir, \"Holding The Line,\" he writes about his 2 1/2 years during the Trump administration, serving as the U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York, and how the Justice Department pressured him to use his office to help Trump allies and punish Trump enemies. During the 2016 presidential campaign, you supported Donald Trump. And what did you see him - in him then? I mean, you donated legal services to the campaign. What were you expecting his presidency would be like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, my job was non-political. And my problems with the Trump administration and with the Department of Justice under Bill Barr is non-political. It's about undermining the rule of law and the ve"}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 36, "text": "Did his legal record trouble you? He had a record of being sued and of suing. He had a record of not paying debts that he owed. He had no experience governing. Some of the people who surrounded himself with were extremists, including Steve Bannon. Did any of that trouble you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Donald Trump was a Democrat turned Republican. And I thought he was going to be transactional. I thought he would be able to reach across the aisle and make deals on a deal-by-deal basis with th"}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 37, "text": "I'm talking about during the campaign.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, like many who stayed in their jobs despite misgivings, I decided to take the appointment. And I tried to keep my job because I thought it was best for the Southern District of New York and the c"}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 38, "text": "So one other thing I want to ask you about, did it trouble you when Trump got his supporters chanting, lock her up - about Hillary Clinton? I mean, as a prosecutor, how did you feel about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they were troubling, but I thought that ultimately, he was going to be transactional, that he could actually reach across the aisle - because that really wasn't happening - and get some work don"}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 39, "text": "You tell a story about Rudy Giuliani that is both disturbing and funny at the same time. You were a lawyer in private practice. And the practice of this law firm was that when you got a new partner in the law firm, that the partner was introduced to important clients. And so Rudy Giuliani had joined the law firm. And you basically hosted a dinner in which he was being introduced to important clients. And things went really wrong when the subject of Muslims came up. Tell us the story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I thought it was part of the, you know, campaign. I wasn't happy about it. But I nevertheless thought he would be an effective president, and I was completely wrong about that."}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 40, "text": "So this was before you were appointed U.S. attorney. Was it before the campaign?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This was a train wreck of train wrecks. I invited a client to a dinner with Rudy Giuliani, and things started off OK. You know, he was having a couple of drinks during the cocktail hour and regaling p"}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 41, "text": "So it was during the campaign.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This was in May of 2016."}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 42, "text": "And were you sorry at that point that Giuliani had become a part of the law firm?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 43, "text": "And also, he was very closely allied with Donald Trump at that point. And, again, that didn't give you pause about supporting Trump.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was deeply disturbing to see him unhinged like that. And so, yeah, I was disturbed that he was now my partner."}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 44, "text": "What was it like to try to do your job knowing that you could be fired at any moment?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I - you know, I had concerns about Trump and some of his positions. But as I said, I nevertheless thought he could be an effective president."}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 45, "text": "How much were you able to talk about your concerns with prosecutors at the Southern District? And how much did you just have to keep to yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was like walking a tightrope. And I had to walk, and I had to move the cases forward. I was lucky to be working with the best attorneys in the country in the Southern District of New York and using"}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 46, "text": "It must be strange for you to be doing all this press now after having, you know, scrupulously avoided the press.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's a very interesting question. You know, clearly, my top staff advisers knew about all of these, you know, incredibly inappropriate interferences. But I tried to keep it away from the line "}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 47, "text": "We searched.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, I didn't do a single interview..."}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 48, "text": "I want to tell you, we usually try to hear how our guests speak before we book them. We couldn't find hardly anything with you in it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...When I..."}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 49, "text": "You worked under two attorney generals and one acting attorney general. So it was Jeff Sessions, acting Attorney General Matthew Whitaker and then Attorney General Bill Barr. Having had all those experiences, what's your assessment so far of Merrick Garland?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's nothing with me in it because I didn't do any interviews because I kept my head down. I did the job, and I didn't want to run afoul of the rules and regulations of the Department of Justice by"}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 50, "text": "Geoffrey Berman, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he's said and done everything the way it's supposed to be done. He's maintained, as far as anyone can see, the integrity and independence of the Department of Justice. And I fully expect him to "}
{"id": "1124043768", "date": "2022-09-20", "guest": "Geoffrey Berman", "title": "How Trump's DOJ pressured the Southern District of NY to aid the White House", "question_index": 51, "text": "Geoffrey Berman served for two and a half years during the Trump administration as the U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York. His new memoir is called \"Holding The Line.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll talk about bringing diversity into the fashion industry with Edward Enninful, editor-in-chief of British Vogue. He's the first Black person to hold that position. He'd been told Black women don't sell magazines. He proved that was false. Enninful learned what it's like to feel marginalized when he was growing up in England after emigrating with his family from Ghana. I hope you'll join us. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our senior producer today is Sam Briger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Therese Madden directed today's show. I am Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for inviting me."}
{"id": "1124491807", "date": "2022-09-22", "guest": "Brady Dennis", "title": "Extreme heat, flooding and wildfires: How climate change supercharged the weather", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today marks the end of summer, another summer of extreme weather. This one ended with a catastrophic hurricane, Fiona. August brought extreme rain and flooding in eastern Kentucky and Saint Louis. Flooding caused a drinking water crisis in Jackson, Miss. In many places, rainfall amounts that previously would have taken days poured down in a matter of hours. Parts of the West have been experiencing the opposite extreme - drought and massive fires. The principal climate scientists at the Union of Concerned Scientists says some scientists have started to refer to the warm season as danger season. My guest, Brady Dennis, has been writing about the dangers we're already facing from climate change and ones we're likely to face in the near future. He's a national environmental reporter for The Washington Post and was part of a team of reporters at The Post that won a Pulitzer Prize for explanatory reporting in 2020 for, quote, \"a groundbreaking series that showed with scientific clarity the dire effects of extreme temperatures on the planet.\" Brady Dennis, welcome to FRESH AIR. I want to start by just talking about extreme rain. And let's use, you know, the storm that became a hurricane, Fiona, which dumped around 30 inches of rain in parts of Puerto Rico. I can't even imagine how much rain that is. So lots of places have been experiencing extreme rain. Why is climate change, warming, causing this calamitous rain?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1124491807", "date": "2022-09-22", "guest": "Brady Dennis", "title": "Extreme heat, flooding and wildfires: How climate change supercharged the weather", "question_index": 1, "text": "You know, as you point out in your articles, a lot of America's infrastructure is old and it's decaying. It's out of date. But even if it was in better shape, it was not built for the climate we're living in now. It was not built for the extreme weather that we're experiencing. So what are some of the problems in our current infrastructure, especially like in - well, I was going to say especially like in older cities, but it's really like in rural areas, too. What are some of the reasons why rain just can't drain quickly enough and causes flooding?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a really good question, Terry, and one that I've spoken to a lot of scientists in the past few months about as we've seen these really almost indescribable record rains. Some of the places you "}
{"id": "1124491807", "date": "2022-09-22", "guest": "Brady Dennis", "title": "Extreme heat, flooding and wildfires: How climate change supercharged the weather", "question_index": 2, "text": "Yeah. Jackson, Miss., is an example of what some people are starting to describe as the plumbing poor. Can you talk a little bit about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, on the broader sense of our infrastructure not being able to handle this, you're absolutely right. I mean, I had one scientist who studies extreme weather tell me, you know, the infrastructure"}
{"id": "1124491807", "date": "2022-09-22", "guest": "Brady Dennis", "title": "Extreme heat, flooding and wildfires: How climate change supercharged the weather", "question_index": 3, "text": "So some of the problem that you're getting at - a shrinking tax base when the population shrinks.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I mean, you can just see, you know, first off, it's important to point out that, as I mentioned, in Jackson, climate change is not the only story. Climate change is one in a litany of problems th"}
{"id": "1124491807", "date": "2022-09-22", "guest": "Brady Dennis", "title": "Extreme heat, flooding and wildfires: How climate change supercharged the weather", "question_index": 4, "text": "You quote the American Society of Civil Engineers as giving our nation's drinking water infrastructure a C-minus on its latest report card. And the U.S. storm water infrastructure was graded even lower. Engineers warned that few systems could afford the high cost of retrofits to address flooding that's linked to climate change. So it's starting to feel like we're a developing nation - you know what I mean? - a developing country when it comes to water. Like, we've seen, you know, several different cities having to resort to bottled water because the city's water is just undrinkable. And, you know, I keep wondering, like, what city is going to be next? What kind of warnings have you been hearing about what we're facing in terms of a water crisis in the future?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. One of the things I've learned covering climate is that there are all these sort of effects you don't think about when it's - when a hurricane hits necessarily or when, you know, the wildfire bu"}
{"id": "1124491807", "date": "2022-09-22", "guest": "Brady Dennis", "title": "Extreme heat, flooding and wildfires: How climate change supercharged the weather", "question_index": 5, "text": "And we're all going to complain when the roads are dug up so that the infrastructure can be updated. But, you know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, all kinds of warnings that this could happen anywhere and has happened, as you mentioned, in a growing number of places. I mean, we do have, in the most general sense, a pretty aging water inf"}
{"id": "1124491807", "date": "2022-09-22", "guest": "Brady Dennis", "title": "Extreme heat, flooding and wildfires: How climate change supercharged the weather", "question_index": 6, "text": "It's, you know - that's, I think - I assume that's one of the reasons why it's so hard to do it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "1124491807", "date": "2022-09-22", "guest": "Brady Dennis", "title": "Extreme heat, flooding and wildfires: How climate change supercharged the weather", "question_index": 7, "text": "What have you been hearing from planners and civil engineers about whether last year's infrastructure bill and the recent Inflation Reduction Act are addressing the issues of infrastructure in a way that might actually be effective?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is. I mean, where do you start, right? And so, you know, every community probably has a wish list. But a lot of communities - I think these infrastructure investments that we're seeing, both in the"}
{"id": "1124491807", "date": "2022-09-22", "guest": "Brady Dennis", "title": "Extreme heat, flooding and wildfires: How climate change supercharged the weather", "question_index": 8, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Brady Dennis, and he's a national environmental reporter for The Washington Post. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So I think on the whole, most folks would agree that these are historic investments. These are - this is money that, really, the scale of which has not been available in the U.S. for a very, ver"}
{"id": "1124491807", "date": "2022-09-22", "guest": "Brady Dennis", "title": "Extreme heat, flooding and wildfires: How climate change supercharged the weather", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with national environmental reporter for The Washington Post Brady Dennis. He's been writing about the dangers we're already facing from climate change and ones we're likely to face in the near future. You did a fascinating piece about something I was totally unaware of, and that is ghost forests. And the piece was reported from a North Carolina peninsula. Tell us about the location. And what is a ghost forest?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So I think on the whole, most folks would agree that these are historic investments. These are - this is money that, really, the scale of which has not been available in the U.S. for a very, ver"}
{"id": "1124491807", "date": "2022-09-22", "guest": "Brady Dennis", "title": "Extreme heat, flooding and wildfires: How climate change supercharged the weather", "question_index": 10, "text": "What does it say about climate change?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. This story was from a place called the Alligator River National Wildlife Refuge, and it's just across from the Outer Banks of North Carolina, a little bit inland, right on the Albemarle-Pamlico "}
{"id": "1124491807", "date": "2022-09-22", "guest": "Brady Dennis", "title": "Extreme heat, flooding and wildfires: How climate change supercharged the weather", "question_index": 11, "text": "Yeah. It's this, like, feedback loop where the climate change is killing the trees and the death of the trees is accelerating the rate of climate change. Can you talk about that, that feedback cycle, that negative feedback cycle?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it tells us that the sea is rising, and that saltwater is is finding its way into these forests that really should not be submerged in saltwater. And so that's what's killing the trees slowly bu"}
{"id": "1124491807", "date": "2022-09-22", "guest": "Brady Dennis", "title": "Extreme heat, flooding and wildfires: How climate change supercharged the weather", "question_index": 12, "text": "How are they slowing it down?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, trees, you know, we can think of trees as sort of the lungs of the earth, right? The trees soak up - on a global scale, soak up huge amounts of carbon emissions of our greenhouse gas pollution e"}
{"id": "1124491807", "date": "2022-09-22", "guest": "Brady Dennis", "title": "Extreme heat, flooding and wildfires: How climate change supercharged the weather", "question_index": 13, "text": "If he remembers all the trees being there, that's really rapid change.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they're doing some plantings of other types of trees that might take root there. They are doing various experiments. Some, I think, involve artificial oyster reefs that can sort of slow the cree"}
{"id": "1124491807", "date": "2022-09-22", "guest": "Brady Dennis", "title": "Extreme heat, flooding and wildfires: How climate change supercharged the weather", "question_index": 14, "text": "You know, the forest, the ghost forest that you're talking about, it's not just the trees that are dying. It's going to affect the whole ecosystem.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, this part of the East Coast - and the East Coast in general, in fact - is a place that seas are rising. You know, one of the fastest rising places around the world is the"}
{"id": "1124491807", "date": "2022-09-22", "guest": "Brady Dennis", "title": "Extreme heat, flooding and wildfires: How climate change supercharged the weather", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Brady Dennis. He's a national environmental reporter for The Washington Post. We'll talk more about the dangers we're already facing from climate change after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's definitely going to affect the whole ecosystem, and it is affecting humans as well in different ways. One of which a colleague of mine did a wonderful story on is farmers. This saltwater intrusio"}
{"id": "1124491807", "date": "2022-09-22", "guest": "Brady Dennis", "title": "Extreme heat, flooding and wildfires: How climate change supercharged the weather", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I am Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Brady Dennis, a national environmental reporter for The Washington Post who's been writing about the dangers we're already facing from climate change and the ones we're likely to face in the near future. He was part of a team of reporters at The Post that won a Pulitzer Prize for explanatory reporting in 2020 for, quote, \"a groundbreaking series that showed with scientific clarity the dire effects of extreme temperatures on the planet.\" Hot places are getting even hotter. And you write about a growing number of cities now that have a chief heat officer to focus on the risks posed by hot temperatures. And this includes Miami, Phoenix, Los Angeles. What's the job description if you're a chief heat officer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's definitely going to affect the whole ecosystem, and it is affecting humans as well in different ways. One of which a colleague of mine did a wonderful story on is farmers. This saltwater intrusio"}
{"id": "1124491807", "date": "2022-09-22", "guest": "Brady Dennis", "title": "Extreme heat, flooding and wildfires: How climate change supercharged the weather", "question_index": 17, "text": "You've written about how many popular places to live - by the shore, in nice, warm climates - are becoming unlivable because of rising oceans and extreme heat waves, droughts, fires. What are some of the areas in the U.S. that you think are likely to become uninhabitable in the near future that are quite popular and even very expensive right now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's a good question. I think the job description - not to be flip about it, it's to save lives because heat, as we know, is really the most deadly impact of a warming climate. We just, as hum"}
{"id": "1124491807", "date": "2022-09-22", "guest": "Brady Dennis", "title": "Extreme heat, flooding and wildfires: How climate change supercharged the weather", "question_index": 18, "text": "Or you've rebuilt after a hurricane or rebuilt after a fire and then another hurricane or another fire comes along and destroys your home. What do you do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think this is a really - a fundamental question and something that we're going to really have to reckon with. Even as someone who covers climate change, Terry, one thing that was really startling to"}
{"id": "1124491807", "date": "2022-09-22", "guest": "Brady Dennis", "title": "Extreme heat, flooding and wildfires: How climate change supercharged the weather", "question_index": 19, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Brady Dennis, and he's a national environmental reporter for The Washington Post who's been writing about climate change. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, or have you rebuilt numerous times? Which one is the one where you say enough? And so I think in a lot of places we're starting to see that. I actually was just in someone's - in multipl"}
{"id": "1124491807", "date": "2022-09-22", "guest": "Brady Dennis", "title": "Extreme heat, flooding and wildfires: How climate change supercharged the weather", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Brady Dennis, who's been writing about the dangers we're already facing from climate change and the ones we're likely to face in the near future. He's a national environmental reporter for The Washington Post. I think it's really interesting that in some places, governments are offering buyouts for residents to leave and relocate. Is that because it's becoming so expensive for local governments, as well as the federal government, to help bail out communities that have been severely damaged, catastrophically damaged, by fire or flood?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, or have you rebuilt numerous times? Which one is the one where you say enough? And so I think in a lot of places we're starting to see that. I actually was just in someone's - in multipl"}
{"id": "1124491807", "date": "2022-09-22", "guest": "Brady Dennis", "title": "Extreme heat, flooding and wildfires: How climate change supercharged the weather", "question_index": 21, "text": "What are some of the equity questions that are coming up surrounding taxpayer dollars paying for rebuilding homes that are clearly in dangerous places - for example, expensive homes on the coast or in zones that are prone to wildfires?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's certainly part of it. There are places - I have done some reporting about places through the National Flood Insurance Program, for instance, that have been rebuilt six, seven, eight, 10 times. "}
{"id": "1124491807", "date": "2022-09-22", "guest": "Brady Dennis", "title": "Extreme heat, flooding and wildfires: How climate change supercharged the weather", "question_index": 22, "text": "You've been reporting from North Carolina, where you recently moved. And you've been doing a lot of on-the-ground reporting. In previous years in covering climate change, part of what you did was, you know, you covered the Environmental Protection Agency. You covered the climate talks in Paris, the climate accord there. And just in terms of the impact on you and what your perceptions are when you're covering climate change from a policy perspective and you're going to conferences and talking to officials, versus when you're, like, on the ground and you're standing in a ghost forest, in a forest that used to have trees and now has just tree stumps, and you're going to other places that are experiencing the extreme effects of climate change.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. I think there's a lot of questions. I think at the core of that is the question of, how much should others be on the hook for the people who own those kind of things? And I think there are - th"}
{"id": "1124491807", "date": "2022-09-22", "guest": "Brady Dennis", "title": "Extreme heat, flooding and wildfires: How climate change supercharged the weather", "question_index": 23, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Brady Dennis. He's a national environmental reporter for The Washington Post. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have learned a lot in all those settings, right? I have stood, for instance, last fall, in Glasgow, Scotland, at the U.N. climate summit, where one world leader after another stood up and made promi"}
{"id": "1124491807", "date": "2022-09-22", "guest": "Brady Dennis", "title": "Extreme heat, flooding and wildfires: How climate change supercharged the weather", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Brady Dennis, who's been writing about the dangers we're already facing from climate change and the ones we're likely to face in the near future. He's a national environmental reporter for The Washington Post. You were part of a team that won a Pulitzer Prize in 2020 for explanatory reporting for a series that showed the dire effects of extreme temperatures on the planet. And for the series, you went to a couple of places. You went to a series of islands off the coast of Canada and to Minnesota. So Canada's up north. Minnesota's pretty far north. What were you looking for in those places? Why did you go there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have learned a lot in all those settings, right? I have stood, for instance, last fall, in Glasgow, Scotland, at the U.N. climate summit, where one world leader after another stood up and made promi"}
{"id": "1124491807", "date": "2022-09-22", "guest": "Brady Dennis", "title": "Extreme heat, flooding and wildfires: How climate change supercharged the weather", "question_index": 25, "text": "What did you find in Minnesota regarding climate change?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, so just to explain the series very briefly, what we did - some colleagues of mine had this very smart idea, which was to look at data about temperatures. You know, there are temperature stations"}
{"id": "1124491807", "date": "2022-09-22", "guest": "Brady Dennis", "title": "Extreme heat, flooding and wildfires: How climate change supercharged the weather", "question_index": 26, "text": "So you grew up in North Carolina. You're living there again. Can you see any differences between when you were young, growing up there, and now since you've moved back in terms of issues related to climate change?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In Minnesota, there are beautiful forests. You know, boreal forests, one of the only places in America where you could go see a boreal forest with these towering pine trees and many other species of t"}
{"id": "1124491807", "date": "2022-09-22", "guest": "Brady Dennis", "title": "Extreme heat, flooding and wildfires: How climate change supercharged the weather", "question_index": 27, "text": "Brady Dennis, it's been a pleasure talking with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it's early days, Terry. I've been here a couple of months, so I think I'll have a better answer for you later on. But the but is even in the few stories I've traveled for in these past months,"}
{"id": "1124491807", "date": "2022-09-22", "guest": "Brady Dennis", "title": "Extreme heat, flooding and wildfires: How climate change supercharged the weather", "question_index": 28, "text": "Brady Dennis is a national environmental reporter for The Washington Post. If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, like this week's interview with Sterlin Harjo, co-creator of the series \"Reservation Dogs,\" or Geoffrey Berman, whose new memoir is about serving as U.S. attorney in the Southern District of New York, and how Trump's Justice Department pressured Berman to achieve legal outcomes favorable to the administration, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. And to see what our producers have to say, subscribe to our newsletter by going to our website - freshair.npr.org. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our senior producer today is Sam Briger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much, Terry."}
{"id": "1125588789", "date": "2022-09-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering Hilary Mantel, Booker Prize-winning author of the 'Wolf Hall' saga", "question_index": 0, "text": "Hilary Mantel, welcome to FRESH AIR, and congratulations on your second Man Booker Prize. It's quite an accomplishment.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Sam Briger, sitting in for Terry Gross. Today we remember writer Hilary Mantel, who died last week at the age of 70. Mantel was best known for her trilogy of novels about Thomas"}
{"id": "1125588789", "date": "2022-09-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering Hilary Mantel, Booker Prize-winning author of the 'Wolf Hall' saga", "question_index": 1, "text": "So I'd love to start from a reading - with a reading from the new book, \"Bring Up The Bodies.\" And this is toward the very end of the book when Anne Boleyn is getting executed. And there are many executions in your books", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1125588789", "date": "2022-09-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering Hilary Mantel, Booker Prize-winning author of the 'Wolf Hall' saga", "question_index": 2, "text": ". The first book ends with an execution and so does the second. So before you read this passage, I'd like you to just explain what's happening and who is speaking in this passage that you're going to read.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1125588789", "date": "2022-09-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering Hilary Mantel, Booker Prize-winning author of the 'Wolf Hall' saga", "question_index": 3, "text": "Thank you for reading that. And that's Hilary Mantel reading from the end - not the very end, but near the end of her latest novel, \"Bring Up The Bodies,\" which won the Man Booker Award, Britain's highest literary prize. You know, it's such a - you just kind of shiver hearing that passage. And it just made me think, you know, about executions like that. It makes the guillotine seem very humane by comparison. You know, where you're describing that if she moves, if Anne Boleyn moves while the sword's coming down, that, you know, she'll be cut to pieces, it won't be a swift death.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we, first of all, have Thomas Cromwell, who is Henry's chief minister and the organizer of the plot to bring down Anne Boleyn. We are almost at the last moment now. Henry has sent for the execut"}
{"id": "1125588789", "date": "2022-09-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering Hilary Mantel, Booker Prize-winning author of the 'Wolf Hall' saga", "question_index": 4, "text": "It's very thoughtful, if you're executing your wife, to do it so humanely.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. So we're asking her to do something very difficult, which was to remain absolutely still in the knowledge of what was coming. But the executioner was a man who obviously knew his trade. And what "}
{"id": "1125588789", "date": "2022-09-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering Hilary Mantel, Booker Prize-winning author of the 'Wolf Hall' saga", "question_index": 5, "text": "So I'm not sure if this is something you've thought about before or not, but I know that you wrote - I think it was your very first book - about the French Revolution. And now you've written about Henry VIII. You know, there are several beheadings in these books. So excuse me for asking this, but if you had to be beheaded centuries ago, would you have preferred the guillotine or the axe or sword customarily used in England?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. It seems strange to us, doesn't it? But for a while, they - the people at the tower of London didn't know whether Anne was to be beheaded or burned. And, you know, typical bureaucrats, they're se"}
{"id": "1125588789", "date": "2022-09-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering Hilary Mantel, Booker Prize-winning author of the 'Wolf Hall' saga", "question_index": 6, "text": "I thought so", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's a strange question."}
{"id": "1125588789", "date": "2022-09-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering Hilary Mantel, Booker Prize-winning author of the 'Wolf Hall' saga", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's a strange question."}
{"id": "1125588789", "date": "2022-09-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering Hilary Mantel, Booker Prize-winning author of the 'Wolf Hall' saga", "question_index": 8, "text": "And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But no, I'm quite prepared to answer that. I think the guillotine never failed, you know, whereas the headsman occasionally has, in fact, in the case of the execution of Thomas Cromwell himself, was e"}
{"id": "1125588789", "date": "2022-09-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering Hilary Mantel, Booker Prize-winning author of the 'Wolf Hall' saga", "question_index": 9, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "However..."}
{"id": "1125588789", "date": "2022-09-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering Hilary Mantel, Booker Prize-winning author of the 'Wolf Hall' saga", "question_index": 10, "text": "No, I suspect it won't. And Cromwell will be executed in the final book in your trilogy, which you're writing now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know, I am hoping this fate will not befall me."}
{"id": "1125588789", "date": "2022-09-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering Hilary Mantel, Booker Prize-winning author of the 'Wolf Hall' saga", "question_index": 11, "text": "One of the things I find so interesting about, you know, reading historical fiction in a period of beheadings in England is that we're now in a period where Islamist extremists are beheading people. And it is so shocking that now people would be beheaded. But when you think of the part it played in Western history, that's shocking, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, 1540 - the final book covers his rise and rise - he's a long way to go yet - and then his sudden fall and execution in the summer of 1540."}
{"id": "1125588789", "date": "2022-09-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering Hilary Mantel, Booker Prize-winning author of the 'Wolf Hall' saga", "question_index": 12, "text": "I'm sorry for dwelling so much on executions. But historically, it's so interesting in your book. I mean, there were other forms of execution. What were some of those forms? And which was considered the worst, the most horrible of all deaths?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And I have lived in Saudi Arabia and, indeed, written a book about Saudi Arabia. So whilst I am happy to say that I never witnessed anything of that kind, you knew that it went on, that beheading"}
{"id": "1125588789", "date": "2022-09-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering Hilary Mantel, Booker Prize-winning author of the 'Wolf Hall' saga", "question_index": 13, "text": "You know, I was thinking, if anyone ever needs an antidote to princess fantasies, they might want to read your books", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, beheading, believe it or not, was a privilege reserved usually for the aristocracy, for gentlemen and gentlewomen. Now, I don't want you to get the idea that these were a weekly event in Henry's"}
{"id": "1125588789", "date": "2022-09-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering Hilary Mantel, Booker Prize-winning author of the 'Wolf Hall' saga", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, beheading, believe it or not, was a privilege reserved usually for the aristocracy, for gentlemen and gentlewomen. Now, I don't want you to get the idea that these were a weekly event in Henry's"}
{"id": "1125588789", "date": "2022-09-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering Hilary Mantel, Booker Prize-winning author of the 'Wolf Hall' saga", "question_index": 15, "text": "Women who were chosen as queen - that sounds really great, right? But if they don't give birth to a male heir for Henry VIII, bam, they're executed. Would you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1125588789", "date": "2022-09-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering Hilary Mantel, Booker Prize-winning author of the 'Wolf Hall' saga", "question_index": 16, "text": "Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no. I don't think it's as simple as that, in all fairness."}
{"id": "1125588789", "date": "2022-09-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering Hilary Mantel, Booker Prize-winning author of the 'Wolf Hall' saga", "question_index": 17, "text": "In doing so much research for your books about Thomas Cromwell and Henry VIII, what are some of the things you learned about what it meant to be a woman then, even a woman who becomes queen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're listening to Terry's interview with Hilary Mantel from 2012. Mantel died last week at the age of 70. She's best known for a trilogy of books about Thomas Cromwell, one of the "}
{"id": "1125588789", "date": "2022-09-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering Hilary Mantel, Booker Prize-winning author of the 'Wolf Hall' saga", "question_index": 18, "text": "Of all the historical stories that you could tell in historical fiction, why did you choose the stories of Cromwell, Henry VIII and Henry VIII's wives?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's a great mistake to regard these women as victims - certainly Catherine of Aragon, Henry's first wife, and Anne Boleyn. They were superbly educated women. They were strong-minded, strong c"}
{"id": "1125588789", "date": "2022-09-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering Hilary Mantel, Booker Prize-winning author of the 'Wolf Hall' saga", "question_index": 19, "text": "Why do you write historical fiction? And I know you haven't exclusively written that, but you're certainly best known for that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The three books really are about Cromwell. They center on him. They're seen through his eyes. What Cromwell doesn't know, by and large, the reader doesn't know, that is, at least when you're within th"}
{"id": "1125588789", "date": "2022-09-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering Hilary Mantel, Booker Prize-winning author of the 'Wolf Hall' saga", "question_index": 20, "text": "Now, there are certain, like, inherent problems with historic fiction, which is - like, for the reader, unless you really know your history, you never know if what you're reading is the novelist taking liberty or, you know, the best interpretation of history that we have. So, you know, that line between fact and fiction is often blurred in historic fiction. What guides you about that line between fact and fiction when you're writing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Since I was a very small child, I've had a kind of reverence for the past, and I felt a very intimate connection with it. When I began, it was just being enthralled by the lives of the members of my f"}
{"id": "1125588789", "date": "2022-09-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering Hilary Mantel, Booker Prize-winning author of the 'Wolf Hall' saga", "question_index": 21, "text": "So Henry VIII breaks off from the Roman Catholic Church, starts the Church of England. Parliament makes Henry the head of the church. But Cromwell's really running the church. So outside - you know, Henry breaks away from the Roman Catholic Church in order to divorce his wife. Outside of changing, you know, the rule about divorce, are there other changes that Henry and Cromwell make in the Church of England?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Sam Briger, sitting in for Terry Gross. Today, we remember author Hilary Mantel, who died last week at the age of 70. Mantel is best known for her three novels about Thomas Crom"}
{"id": "1125588789", "date": "2022-09-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering Hilary Mantel, Booker Prize-winning author of the 'Wolf Hall' saga", "question_index": 22, "text": "So is the Bible translated from Latin into English during the period of Henry VIII and in part as a result of Henry VIII?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think Henry's divorce is really only one part of it if you think of the enormous advantages that the break from Rome brought to England, because it meant, basically, for Henry, that he could l"}
{"id": "1125588789", "date": "2022-09-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering Hilary Mantel, Booker Prize-winning author of the 'Wolf Hall' saga", "question_index": 23, "text": "And without having to go through a priest. You could...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it is. And this is a great turning point. In 1538, a time which will be covered in my third book, Cromwell actually gets Henry's blessing for the English Bible to be placed in every parish church"}
{"id": "1125588789", "date": "2022-09-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering Hilary Mantel, Booker Prize-winning author of the 'Wolf Hall' saga", "question_index": 24, "text": "It was accessible to you directly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "1125588789", "date": "2022-09-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering Hilary Mantel, Booker Prize-winning author of the 'Wolf Hall' saga", "question_index": 25, "text": "You grew up Roman Catholic in England. Did it make a difference to be Roman Catholic as opposed to Anglican?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You don't have to ask the priest what it means. If you can read, you can read it in your own language. And if you can't read, someone else can read it out to you. Puts it - it puts the responsibility "}
{"id": "1125588789", "date": "2022-09-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering Hilary Mantel, Booker Prize-winning author of the 'Wolf Hall' saga", "question_index": 26, "text": "So I just want to ask you a little bit about your health. I know you've had a debilitating condition for a few decades now, endometriosis, which has been a pretty systemic problem for you. Would you just explain a little bit what the condition is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview with Hilary Mantel, the author best known for her three historical novels about Thomas Cromwell. She also wrote a memoir called \"Giving Up The Gh"}
{"id": "1125588789", "date": "2022-09-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering Hilary Mantel, Booker Prize-winning author of the 'Wolf Hall' saga", "question_index": 27, "text": "So correct me if I'm wrong here, but because of the steroids that you were on to help with your condition, and I think because of a thyroid condition as well, your weight just about doubled. And you ended up with a completely different body...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, endometriosis is a condition in which the special cells that line the womb - they are the endometrium. They should be in your womb. But in endometriosis, these special cells are found in other pa"}
{"id": "1125588789", "date": "2022-09-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering Hilary Mantel, Booker Prize-winning author of the 'Wolf Hall' saga", "question_index": 28, "text": "...Than the one that you used to have. How did that change the sense of who you are?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "1125588789", "date": "2022-09-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering Hilary Mantel, Booker Prize-winning author of the 'Wolf Hall' saga", "question_index": 29, "text": "Well, it must have created a strange relationship to your body because your body was already in pain from the endometriosis, but then it was like physically transformed. You didn't even recognize it. And to be - to have a body, to be in a body - however you want to see your body - and not feel like it's really yours must be a very, you know, estranging position to be in. You want to feel united with your body, not like it's this alien thing that you ended up in.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I lived my life as a skinny little thing, and that's the body type in my family. And, you know, I thought I'd get old, but I never thought I'd get fat. And I was given a particular drug - and I'"}
{"id": "1125588789", "date": "2022-09-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering Hilary Mantel, Booker Prize-winning author of the 'Wolf Hall' saga", "question_index": 30, "text": "So I'm thinking there was a period of a few years when you lived in Saudi Arabia.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that's right. And the pity of it was that the drug in question didn't do anything for me at all. It didn't do anything to help the pain or cure the endometriosis or even stop it in its tracks. It"}
{"id": "1125588789", "date": "2022-09-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering Hilary Mantel, Booker Prize-winning author of the 'Wolf Hall' saga", "question_index": 31, "text": "Your husband is a geologist, and he was working there. And, of course, there was so many restrictions on your life. You couldn't drive. You could barely leave your house unless you were escorted by your husband or another man. And I'm thinking you probably already had gained the weight. So you were in a new body in a country that basically granted you no rights. That must have been such a really strange and alienating period for you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1125588789", "date": "2022-09-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering Hilary Mantel, Booker Prize-winning author of the 'Wolf Hall' saga", "question_index": 32, "text": "Was it hard after getting back to England from your years in Saudi Arabia to be an empowered person again?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it was. I went out to Saudi Arabia when I was still taking this drug and partway through this strange weight gain. And as you say, out there, you dress in drapery rather than clothes. So perhaps "}
{"id": "1125588789", "date": "2022-09-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering Hilary Mantel, Booker Prize-winning author of the 'Wolf Hall' saga", "question_index": 33, "text": "So here you were in a very, like, religious country, a religion that doesn't grant many rights to women. You had left your religion by the time you were 12. You basically gave up the church at that age.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I used to come back every summer, so my life fell into two parts - a woman who ran her own life in Britain and a woman who, in Saudi Arabia, simply didn't have a life to run. And somet"}
{"id": "1125588789", "date": "2022-09-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering Hilary Mantel, Booker Prize-winning author of the 'Wolf Hall' saga", "question_index": 34, "text": "Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1125588789", "date": "2022-09-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering Hilary Mantel, Booker Prize-winning author of the 'Wolf Hall' saga", "question_index": 35, "text": "Did you miss that presence?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I no longer have faith. I lost my belief in a deity, not just in Catholicism, but in the whole thing."}
{"id": "1125588789", "date": "2022-09-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering Hilary Mantel, Booker Prize-winning author of the 'Wolf Hall' saga", "question_index": 36, "text": "And do you still feel the same way, that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I don't think I missed it, not at that time in my life. Other things came in to fill the gap."}
{"id": "1125588789", "date": "2022-09-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering Hilary Mantel, Booker Prize-winning author of the 'Wolf Hall' saga", "question_index": 37, "text": "Where would you go, do you think?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I don't feel the same way now. I now - I envy people who have faith. And I think it's possible I may regain it although I would not go back to the Catholic Church."}
{"id": "1125588789", "date": "2022-09-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering Hilary Mantel, Booker Prize-winning author of the 'Wolf Hall' saga", "question_index": 38, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To the Church of England, as founded by Henry VIII."}
{"id": "1125588789", "date": "2022-09-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering Hilary Mantel, Booker Prize-winning author of the 'Wolf Hall' saga", "question_index": 39, "text": "Well, it's a very broad church.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To the Church of England, as founded by Henry VIII."}
{"id": "1125588789", "date": "2022-09-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering Hilary Mantel, Booker Prize-winning author of the 'Wolf Hall' saga", "question_index": 40, "text": "Don't you almost feel like you created it? Do you know what I mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To the Church of England, as founded by Henry VIII."}
{"id": "1125588789", "date": "2022-09-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering Hilary Mantel, Booker Prize-winning author of the 'Wolf Hall' saga", "question_index": 41, "text": "Because, like, in writing all these books, like, these figures are, like, in some way, your creation. It is part fiction. So don't you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To the Church of England, as founded by Henry VIII."}
{"id": "1125588789", "date": "2022-09-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering Hilary Mantel, Booker Prize-winning author of the 'Wolf Hall' saga", "question_index": 42, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I..."}
{"id": "1125588789", "date": "2022-09-28", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering Hilary Mantel, Booker Prize-winning author of the 'Wolf Hall' saga", "question_index": 43, "text": "Well, Hilary Mantel, congratulations on your books and the Man Booker Prizes. And thank you so very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that it's true in the sense that I have come to have great admiration for men, like Thomas Cranmer, who were among the founders of the Church of England. And there is a certain amount of perso"}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 0, "text": "And so we heard Loretta Lynn singing her song \"I'm A Honky Tonk Girl,\" and then LeAnn Womack from the new Loretta Lynn tribute, \"Coal Miner's Daughter.\" Loretta Lynn, what a great pleasure to have you on the show. Thank you so much for coming.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) So turn that jukebox way up high and fill my glass up while I cry. I've lost everything in this world. And now I'm a honky tonk girl."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 1, "text": "Now, did you pick the performers on the new tribute CD?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. It's really nice to be on your show."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 2, "text": "And did you talk with them at all about the songs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I told them who..."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 3, "text": "Now, the song we just heard, that's the first song you wrote. It was your first record released in 1960.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I didn't talk to them. I just told my manager who I would like to have on the, you know, the record. And the next thing I knew, they were here. And we did the album. We had a good time. Me and She"}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 4, "text": "You say you wrote it in 20 minutes on a $17 guitar that your husband bought for you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 5, "text": "...Because he thought you sang well, and you wrote a song because he told you to. Do you think you ever would have written or performed if your husband didn't say that's what you should do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's true."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 6, "text": "So when you wrote \"Honky Tonk Girl\" with absolutely no songwriting experience, how did you approach writing a song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I wouldn't have because I was too bashful. I wouldn't get out in front of people. I wouldn't - you know, I was really bashful. And I wouldn't - I would have never sang in front anybody."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 7, "text": "Did you say the toilet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I just sat down with my guitar. I was outside. In fact, I was leaning up against the old toilet out there in the West Coast, in Washington state."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 8, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The old toilet, yeah."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 9, "text": "So what made you think of the story that you tell in \"Honky Tonk Girl?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I sat there and wrote \"Honky Tonk Girl\" and \"Whispering Sea.\""}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 10, "text": "And had you hung out at honky tonks, or did you know them from songs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think I probably listened to a bunch of people, you know, their songs and stuff. And I figured, well, I can - if they can write, I can, too. So I just said, hey, I'm going to tell a story. And"}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 11, "text": "So you were doing some performing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. When I first started writing, my husband got me a job at this little bar. And me and a steel player and my brother, he played the fiddle and sang. So we sang together. And so we really had a good "}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 12, "text": "But at home, you sang.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I had just started. In fact, I had never sang in front of anybody till my husband pushed me out there. You know, I'd never been out and sang for anybody."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 13, "text": "So when you recorded your first single, \"Honky Tonk Girl,\" you were 24. You'd already been married for 11 years because you got married when you were 13. And you already had four children. Do I have that right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I rocked the babies to sleep. And in Kentucky, when I was growing up with my sisters and brothers, we all sang and rocked the babies to sleep, you know? But that was about as far as we ever did, you k"}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 14, "text": "And the twins came a little bit later.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had four kids."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 15, "text": "What was your life like as a wife and mother before you started recording?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, the twins come later."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 16, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It wasn't easy. Me and my husband both worked. I took care of the farmhouse. I cleaned and cooked for 36 ranch hands."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 17, "text": "Wait. So you cooked and cleaned for 36 ranch hands and had four children.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And - yeah - before I started singing. And so singing was easy. I thought, gee, whiz, this is an easy job."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 18, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure did. Paid the rent on the old house that we lived in, and that's what I did to make the rent. Yeah."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 19, "text": "So when you made your first appearance on the Opry, which was the same year that you recorded \"Honky Tonk Girl\"...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It wasn't easy, let me tell you. Life was hard."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 20, "text": "...You weren't used to performing on such a prestigious stage in front of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 21, "text": "...An audience like that. Did you know how to perform on stage in a place like the Opry?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 22, "text": "Right", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not really. I just got on there with my guitar, and I sang. I mean, I just did it just like I was doing it at home, you know? I never thought about it being the Grand Ole Opry because if I had, I woul"}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 23, "text": ". It's so much like what you do every day.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not really. I just got on there with my guitar, and I sang. I mean, I just did it just like I was doing it at home, you know? I never thought about it being the Grand Ole Opry because if I had, I woul"}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 24, "text": "So the next song we're going to hear is a song that you first recorded in 1966, \"Don't Come Home A Drinkin' (With Lovin' On Your Mind).\" And this is a great song. Gretchen Wilson sings it on the tribute CD. We're going to hear your version. But first, I want to hear the story of how you wrote it. You'd already had about six years of songwriting experience behind you. You probably were no longer leaning against the toilet when you wrote this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 25, "text": "Doo is your husband - was your late husband.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was probably - Doo had fixed me a little writing room at this time out in Goodlettsville."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 26, "text": "And at this point, did you feel like I know how to write a song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Doo was my husband, yes. And he's the only one I've ever had. And so he fixed me this little writing room, and I'd go out there, and I'd write. And this is one of the songs that I wrote was \"Don't Com"}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 27, "text": "Now, you've said that your husband is in every song that you've written in a large way or in a small way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. When I wrote \"Don't Come Home A Drinkin'\", I knew I could write because I'd had quite a few on the charts by that time."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 28, "text": "Were you thinking of him when you wrote this song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", if I write a song, he's in there somewhere."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 29, "text": "Would he come home after drinking like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 30, "text": "Was the song intended to send him a message at all?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, sure. If a man drinks, he's going to come home drinking. He liked to drink."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 31, "text": "Yeah", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not really. I probably told him many times I didn't have to sing about it."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 32, "text": ". OK. Well, let's hear the song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not really. I probably told him many times I didn't have to sing about it."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 33, "text": "This is \"Don't Come Home A Drinkin',\" recorded in 1966 by Loretta Lynn.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 34, "text": "And it was a No. 1 country music chart hit.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 35, "text": "That was Loretta Lynn, recorded in 1966. And there's a new Loretta Lynn tribute CD. And on that CD, that song is performed by Gretchen Wilson. Now, when you started performing, Patsy Cline was your mentor until she died.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Well, you thought I'd be waiting up when you came home last night. You'd been out with all the boys, and you ended up half tight. But liquor and love, they just don't mix. Leave the bottle o"}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 36, "text": "So she must have really related to what you were going through.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But, you know, she hadn't been in the business that long when I come to Nashville. She'd only been singing two or three years. And, yeah."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 37, "text": "What were some of the things that she taught you that really helped you a lot? Things relating to - you know, from clothing to performing style to dealing with the music industry...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. We talked a lot."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 38, "text": "Yeah, go ahead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she kind of helped me..."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 39, "text": "What did she tell you about how to dress?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know, with the style and everything that I was - you know, I was in blue jeans and a T-shirt or blue jeans and just a Western shirt. And she taught me a lot how to dress and..."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 40, "text": "And did she give you any advice about performing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then, I'd go back into my dress again."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 41, "text": "I want to play another song that you wrote. And this was a song that was actually pretty controversial at the time it came out, and it's called \"Rated 'X.'\"", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We are listening to an interview Terry Gross recorded in 2010 with Loretta Lynn, who died yesterday at the age of 90. We'll hear more after a break. This is FRESH AIR."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 42, "text": "And I'm going to let you describe what the song's about.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 43, "text": "OK. And what I want to do, I want to go to the tribute CD. The White Stripes have a really good, reworked, like, reinterpreted version of this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's about a woman that's been married and divorced. And I'll just let you listen to it."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 44, "text": "And I know you've worked with Jack White before. He produced a terrific album of yours...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 45, "text": "...In 2004 called \"Van Lear Rose.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 46, "text": "So do you want to say anything about the White Stripes version of your song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 47, "text": "OK, so this is the song Loretta Lynn wrote. She recorded it in 1971. It's called \"Rated 'X'\". And here's the White Stripes from the Loretta Lynn tribute album, \"Coal Miner's Daughter.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think whatever Jack does is good. I mean, you can't - I mean, he's good. You have to love him. So this is good."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 48, "text": "That's the White Stripes from the new Loretta Lynn tribute album \"Coal Miner's Daughter.\" And also, Loretta Lynn's famous memoir, \"Coal Miner's Daughter,\" has been published in a new edition. Now, we were talking before about writing from a woman's point of view, which \"Rated 'X'\" most certainly is, you know, about what it's like to be a divorced woman when men think that you're available and try to take advantage of you and you have a reputation. So why was this song controversial?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Well, if you'd been a married woman and things didn't seem to work out, divorce is the key to being loose and free. But you're going to be talked about. Everybody knows that you've loved onc"}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 49, "text": "When you called it \"Rated 'X'\" I mean, do you think some people thought, oh, this is going to be a very provocative, sexy", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was because, you know, you're a - been a married woman. I think it - when you write about it, they take it to heart, too, you know? They - people do. So I think that was it. It just starts "}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 50, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was because, you know, you're a - been a married woman. I think it - when you write about it, they take it to heart, too, you know? They - people do. So I think that was it. It just starts "}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 51, "text": "...Song 'cause it's called \"Rated 'X'\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. You know, a lot of..."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 52, "text": "Now, something that was even more controversial than \"Rated 'X'\" was your song \"The Pill,\" which is about...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, a lot of the disc jockeys, you know, banned it before they even listened to it. And, you know, after it got way up in the charts, and they all flipped the record, started listening to it and pla"}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 53, "text": "This has some lyrics that I think, you know, really were controversial in some country music circles at the time. And the lyrics include, this old maternity dress I've got is going in the garbage. And you've set this chicken your last time because now I've got the pill.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 54, "text": "I'm tearing down this brooder house because now I've got the pill.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 55, "text": "So the song sounds autobiographical in some ways. I'm not saying that you are necessarily angry in the way that the character in the song is angry. But you had six children.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 56, "text": "You lost three?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had six kids. I lost three."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 57, "text": "Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't realize that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I lost three."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 58, "text": "Oh. So you had six and lost three others? Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was about five and six - well, it wasn't - you know, I lost them before they were born."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 59, "text": "That's a lot of pregnancies.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 60, "text": "Yeah. Right. OK. Stating the obvious. Did you share the song's anger?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 61, "text": "Let's hear it. And this was released in 1975...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I sure didn't like it when I got pregnant a few times, you know? It's hard for a woman to have so many kids. And, well, at the time, I guess I had four. And then I got pregnant and had - you kno"}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 62, "text": "...Recorded in 1972. This is Loretta Lynn, \"The Pill.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 63, "text": "That's Loretta Lynn, recorded in 1972. It was released in '75. The song is called \"The Pill.\" Now, you've said that you never even used the pill as birth control", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You wined me and dined me when I was your girl, promised if I'd be your wife, you'd show me the world. But all I've seen of this old world is a bed and a doctor bill. I'm tearing down your b"}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 64, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You wined me and dined me when I was your girl, promised if I'd be your wife, you'd show me the world. But all I've seen of this old world is a bed and a doctor bill. I'm tearing down your b"}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 65, "text": "I see. Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, if I'd had it, I'd have used it. At the time I..."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 66, "text": "Well, so you write that there's a lot you didn't know about, that you were 13 when you got married in 1947. And you say you didn't even...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, because even - back when I was having all the kids, we didn't have birth control pills. Or if they did, I didn't know anything about them."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 67, "text": "No. You said you didn't know anything about sex...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "?"}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 68, "text": "...Or even pregnancy. You say when you got pregnant, you didn't even know the word. Is that right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 69, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't know. I guess we just called it having a baby. We didn't call it pregnant. Back in Butcher Holler, there was a lot of things we didn't know..."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 70, "text": "When I think of you getting married at 13, it just seems so young.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 71, "text": "So when you got married, about a year afterwards, you moved to the state of Washington.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it is. It is way too young."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 72, "text": "Far away. Did you feel lost for a while when you moved away from...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Washington state."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 73, "text": "...Your family and everything you knew?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 74, "text": "Wow. I was thinking what it must've been like for you to be, you know, so far away from home at the age of, like, 15...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And here I was, 3,000 miles away two months after he married me."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 75, "text": "...Having children already. You probably had no idea you were ever going to become famous.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 76, "text": "So let's hear a little bit of you singing as Loretta Lynn in the movie, the title song \"Coal Miner's Daughter.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because Loretta had looked - she'd been brought a stack of 8-by-10 glossies by the studio. And they said, go through these. These are some of the young actresses that we were thinking might be good to"}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 77, "text": "My guest is Sissy Spacek. That's an excerpt from the film \"Coal Miner's Daughter,\" in which she played Loretta Lynn. And Sissy Spacek has a new memoir called \"My Extraordinary Ordinary Life.\" How much did you have to change your style of singing to sound like Loretta Lynn?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Loretta Lynn, singing) Well I was born a coal miner's daughter in a cabin on a hill in Butcher Holler. We were poor, but we had love. That's the one thing my daddy made sure of. He shoveled coal t"}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 78, "text": "Well, you got that whole twangy, country thing going.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thought that I changed it a lot. And I..."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 79, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. But there's something about the way Loretta - nobody else sings like Loretta. And nobody talks like Loretta. In fact, nobody in Kentucky even sounds like Loretta."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 80, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's something that she does with her breath that just - and her accent is just unique. And once I captured that, her rhythm, the hardest part of \"Coal Miner's Daughter\" for me was giving it all up"}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 81, "text": "Well, I want to thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "? But I thought that was pretty funny later in life."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 82, "text": "Well, I want to play another song, and this is a song that's covered on the new tribute album. But we'll hear your version. And this is \"After The Fire Is Gone,\" and it's one of the hit duets that you recorded with Conway Twitty. So this song is attributed to L.E. White, a songwriter I'm not familiar with.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're remembering country music singer and songwriter Loretta Lynn, who died yesterday at the age of 90. Terry Gross interviewed her in 2010."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 83, "text": "Oh, I see. And so they brought the song to you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. L.E. White wrote this song. It was one of Conway's writers."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 84, "text": "How did you start recording with Conway Twitty? These duets are so good.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 85, "text": "Owen Bradley was your producer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Me and Conway went overseas. There was a whole crew of people went overseas to, you know, perform. And me and Conway started singing in the dressing rooms. So we thought, well, when we get home we'll "}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 86, "text": "And, obviously, he liked it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Our producer, yeah."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 87, "text": "Some of the songs are like, oh, we're so attracted to each other, but it's wrong, so we really shouldn't. And then...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He loved it. He says you all get in the studio and let's record. So that's what we did."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 88, "text": "...And this one is after the fire is gone.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 89, "text": "So this was recorded in 1970, went to No. 1 on the country charts and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "After the fire's gone."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 90, "text": "Oh, but you didn't.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, everybody thought me and Conway had a thing going, you know..."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 91, "text": "Right. So on the tribute album, on the Loretta Lynn tribute album, \"Coal Miner's Daughter,\" this duet is covered by Steve Earle and Allison Moorer, who are, in fact, married. But we're going to hear your version with Conway Twitty. So here it is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...'Cause of the song we recorded. But me and Conway were friends. We wasn't lovers."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 92, "text": "This is Loretta Lynn and Conway Twitty.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 93, "text": "LORETTA", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 94, "text": "That's Loretta Lynn and Conway Twitty recorded in 1970, a song that went to No. 1 on the country charts. Now, there's one kind of song you've written that I haven't asked you about. And that is the I am so angry, you'd better be careful because if you take my man, I will actually hit you kind of song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) And there's nothin' cold as ashes after the fire is gone. Love is where you find it when you find no love at home. And there's nothin' cold as ashes after the fire gone."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 95, "text": "I'm thinking of \"Fist City,\" yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Is that \"Fist City?\""}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 96, "text": "And it's not exactly a sisterhood is powerful kind of song. The lyric is, if you don't want to go to fist city, you'd better detour around my town or else I'll grab you by the hair of your head and lift you off the ground.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 97, "text": "So tell me about writing a lyric like this where - I mean, it's, like, real physical anger.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 98, "text": "There was somebody who tried that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there was an old gal that tried to take Doolittle away from me."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 99, "text": "Did you threaten her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, there was somebody. And - but she didn't make it."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 100, "text": "And not in rhyme.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "with more than a song."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 101, "text": "What did you tell her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. It didn't rhyme at all."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 102, "text": "You know what's amazing to me? Like, why would somebody think that they could compete with you? And also, maybe I'm speaking out of turn here, but, like, why would your husband...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just told her back off. She's playing with the wrong (inaudible)."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 103, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's how women take your husband away from you all the time, so..."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 104, "text": "Right. So was it right after this incident that you sat down and wrote the song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They all think that, you know."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 105, "text": "That's fine. But do you think she knew that it was about her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I don't know exactly when I wrote the song, but I'm pretty sure that I had some things in mind when I wrote it. I won't talk about it."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 106, "text": "You imagine that she did.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just imagine."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 107, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I imagine she did."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 108, "text": "Oh, nice", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I probably told her."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 109, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I probably told her."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 110, "text": "OK. So this is \"Fist City.\" This is Loretta Lynn, one of her many hits.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 111, "text": "So that was \"Fist City\" featuring Loretta Lynn. And I should mention, too, that Loretta Lynn's famous memoir, \"Coal Miner's Daughter,\" has been published in a new edition. I want to play another song. And this is something more recent than what we've been hearing. This is your collaboration with Jack White. He produced an album of yours in 2004, \"Van Lear Rose.\" How did you meet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You've been making your brags around town that you've been lovin' my man. But the man I love, when he picks up trash, he puts it in a garbage can. And that's what you look like to me and wha"}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 112, "text": "Oh, I didn't realize that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I went to Detroit to work, and Jack White came to see me. And of course, he told me about when he was little. He was about 9 years old. When \"Coal Miner's Daughter\" came out, he stayed in the theater "}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 113, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. He lives here in Nashville."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 114, "text": "So you're good friends now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, yeah."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 115, "text": "Oh, that's great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 116, "text": "The track I want to play is called \"Miss Being Mrs.\" You wrote all the songs on this album. And this is one of my favorites. I like the song a lot, and also, I just love how stripped down it is. It's just you and a guitar. Is that Jack White on guitar?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We've always been good friends ever since we did the album."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 117, "text": "OK. Do you want to say anything about writing this song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's Jack White."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 118, "text": "All right, good enough. So this is Loretta Lynn from the 2004 album, \"Van Lear Rose,\" produced by Jack White, who's accompanying her on guitar.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I don't like to talk about the way I write songs. I just let people hear them, and they know what I'm talking about."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 119, "text": "That's my guest, Loretta Lynn, with Jack White on guitar from the album \"Van Lear Rose,\" which Jack White produced of Loretta Lynn's songs in 2004. Your husband, who we've spoken a little bit about, died in 1996. And you didn't perform for a while after that. How has your life changed since he's been gone?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I lie here all alone in my bed of memories. I'm dreaming of your sweet kiss. Oh, how you loved on me. I can almost feel you with me here in this blue moonlight. Oh, I miss being Mrs. tonight"}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 120, "text": "You know, so many people are, I think, kind of baffled a little bit by the relationship 'cause it seems, in some ways, to have been a very rocky relationship. And at the same time, you stayed with him throughout.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, not for the better. I mean, I miss him so much, you know? He kind of kept things going like me recording - and he'd always tell me how good I was, you know? And that always helped a lot. And he "}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 121, "text": "You don't need him anymore to tell him (ph) you're a good singer, right? I mean, you know that, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, we had a - I think we had a relationship. We fought one day and would love the next. So, I mean, that - to me, that's a good relationship. If you can't fight and if you can't tell each other what "}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 122, "text": "So this year was the 50th anniversary of your first single.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't know about that, but I try."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 123, "text": "This year, you got a Lifetime Achievement Grammy. How much are you performing now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1126904819", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Loretta Lynn", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers country superstar Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 124, "text": "Well, Loretta Lynn, it's really been great to talk with you. Thank you so very much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm performing quite a bit. We've been home for two or three weeks. It's been quite a bit of time off for us 'cause we don't usually take that kind of time off. But I work a lot. But I like it. I don'"}
{"id": "1126907119", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Sue Graham Mingus", "title": "Remembering Sue Graham Mingus, widow of composer and bassist Charles Mingus", "question_index": 0, "text": "There was something about Mingus that seemed to inspire musicians to do their best work when they played with him. Some musicians that sound, you know, OK in other sad settings sound inspired, firing when they're playing with Mingus. Is there anything that you can think about that he did on the bandstand or in recording sessions that helped bring out those qualities in the musicians that played with him?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're going to remember Sue Graham Mingus, the widow of the late composer and bass player Charles Mingus. Sue Graham Mingus died Saturday at the age of 92. After the death of her hu"}
{"id": "1126907119", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Sue Graham Mingus", "title": "Remembering Sue Graham Mingus, widow of composer and bassist Charles Mingus", "question_index": 1, "text": "In your book, you write that Mingus had said he didn't like pencil composers. He wanted his music to sound like the musicians were making it up as they were playing it. Maybe you could talk a little bit about Mingus' approach to composing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was two things. It was Charles, but I have to say it was also the music because we have the same effects now. The musicians will tell you that he is there, lashing and whipping them and eggin"}
{"id": "1126907119", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Sue Graham Mingus", "title": "Remembering Sue Graham Mingus, widow of composer and bassist Charles Mingus", "question_index": 2, "text": "I want to play a composition that Mingus dedicated to you, and this was recorded in the latter part of the '70s. It's called \"Sue's Changes.\" What did he tell you about this piece when he told you about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I have to say upfront that Charles never pretended to be consistent, and his views and his method of approaching music changed constantly, as his own approach to life. There was a time when he d"}
{"id": "1126907119", "date": "2022-10-05", "guest": "Sue Graham Mingus", "title": "Remembering Sue Graham Mingus, widow of composer and bassist Charles Mingus", "question_index": 3, "text": "Well, why don't we hear \"Sue's Changes\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, Charles didn't talk about his compositions. He - nor did they necessarily reflect their titles. He would sometimes tack on a political title if there was something that moved or distur"}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 0, "text": "Tom Waits, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) The higher that the monkey can climb, the more he shows his tail. Call no man happy till he dies. There's no milk at the bottom of the pail. God builds a church. The devil builds a chapel, l"}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 1, "text": "Now, this music started as a music theater piece?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thanks. Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 2, "text": "Some of your music writing seems influenced by the German songs of Kurt Weill. Have you listened a lot to him? Do you feel like he's influenced your writing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, originally. This was a project done with Robert Wilson, the avant garde theater director. So this is the third thing that we've done with him. And the production was called \"Woyzeck,\" and th"}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 3, "text": "What'd you think?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I hadn't really listened to him until I had people tell me that I sounded somewhat like him or had some influence in there. So I said, well, I better start listening to this stuff. And"}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 4, "text": "That's well put. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I liked it. It's really - a lot of it's really angry. And I guess I like beautiful melodies telling me terrible things. And..."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 5, "text": "The arrangements for your songs are really good. Do you do the arrangements yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it works for me. Yeah."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I collaborate with my wife on the songs and every aspect of it, really, from composing and arranging, recording, all that business. So, you know, we have a rhythm and a way of working. It's kind"}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 7, "text": "What came first to you - for you, being married or being song collaborators?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But, you know, when you live together, you know, it makes a lot easier, the payback, you know?"}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 8, "text": "What was the music that you grew up listening to because your parents were listening to it? I mean, before you were old enough to choose music yourself, what was the music in your house?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We got married about 1 o'clock in the morning out in Watts. And it was a kind of a whirlwind thing. And the preacher was on a beeper and - but, you know, it worked out."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Really young, mariachi music, I guess. My dad only played a Mexican radio station. And then, you know, Frank Sinatra and, later, Harry Belafonte. And then, you know, I would go over to my friends' hou"}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 10, "text": "Now, you said your father listened mostly to the Mexican station and to mariachi music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was about 13. Yeah, it's - I didn't really identify with my - the music of my own generation. But I was very curious about the music of others. And I think I responded to the song forms themselves -"}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 11, "text": "Was your father Mexican?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- she used to send money into all the preachers, you know? And - but the early songs I remember was \"Abilene.\" When I heard \"Abilene\" on the radio, it really moved me. And then I heard - you know, Abi"}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So I feel like - a certain anatomical aspect to a song that I respond to. I think, oh, yeah, I can go into that world. There's something to eat. There's the name of a street."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 14, "text": "I want to play another track from \"Blood Money,\" and this is called \"A Good Man Is Hard To Find.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's a - oh, OK. There's a saloon, OK. So I think probably, yeah, that's why I put things like that in my songs."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is Tom Waits.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 16, "text": "That's \"A Good Man Is Hard To Find\" from the new Tom Waits CD, \"Blood Money.\" He also has another new CD called \"Alice.\" And we'll hear some of that a little bit later. Now, I want to ask you about your voice. You have a very raspy singing voice. Was that a sound that you strove for, you know, that you worked on having? Or is it naturally developed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Well, I always play Russian Roulette in my head. It's 17 black and 29 red. How far from the gutter. How far from the pew. I will always remember to forget about you. A good man is hard to fi"}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's that old man thing. I couldn't wait to be an old man..."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 18, "text": "Was, say, Louis Armstrong an influence on you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Old man with a deep voice. Yeah, I scream into a pillow, you know?"}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 19, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, yeah. Sure. You know, you can't ignore the influence of someone like Louis Armstrong. It's - but this one, this - \"A Good Man Is Hard To Find,\" you know, was an attempt to kind of tip my hat"}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 20, "text": "Well, you actually sing in different kinds of voices on your new CDs. I mean, you have, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 21, "text": "...Your very deep, growly voice and then a lighter voice that you use.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 22, "text": "Have you ever worried about hurting your voice by...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, well, it's just - like, it's just a musical vocabulary, really, you know? You find the appropriate sound for the correct tune and match them up. Yeah. You know, I like to scream. And, you kn"}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 23, "text": "Oh, that's good.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I've hurt it. Yeah, I have hurt it. But I have a voice doctor in New York who used to treat Frank Sinatra and various people. He said, oh, you're doing fine. Don't worry about it."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 24, "text": "Now, you once said that you wish you could have been a part of the Brill Building era, in which people like Carole King and Leiber and Stoller and Ellie Greenwich and Jeff Barry were writing songs for singers and for vocal groups. What do you think you would have liked about that?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're listening to Terry's 2002 interview with Tom Waits. This year is the 20th anniversary of his lyrical concept albums \"Blood Money\" and \"Alice,\" which are being reissued on viny"}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 25, "text": "Tom Waits, you have two new CDs. We heard part of \"Blood Money.\" You have another new CD called \"Alice,\" which I believe, like \"Blood Money,\" also has its origins as a Robert Wilson music theater piece.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I guess writing at gunpoint sounds really exciting to me, those kinds of deadlines. I went to a rehearsal building on Time Square in New York one afternoon in a really tiny, little room. In fact, "}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 26, "text": "And what is Alice about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Yeah. Yeah. It was down in Hamburg quite a while ago - in '93, something like that"}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 27, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a hypothetical situation, kind of imagining the obsession that Lewis Carroll had for this young girl, Alice, and..."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 28, "text": "Well, why don't we hear the title track? This is called \"Alice.\" And if there's something you want to say to introduce it, that's great. And if not, we'll just hear it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know what it might have been like inside of his mind in Victorian England and all that stuff. The beginning of photography, and he's - you know, a young gal and, you know, it's kind of like a, "}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 29, "text": "OK. Here's \"Alice,\" the title track from the new Tom Waits CD.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. This is \"Alice.\" This is kind of, like, the opening tune. And it's, like, a private moment. And it's, like, sitting in a chair by yourself, thinking about someone."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 30, "text": "That's the title track of Tom Waits' new CD, \"Alice,\" one of two new CDs that he has. Did you even as a kid like, you know, murder ballads and stories of depravity like you do now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) It's dreamy weather we're on. You waved your crooked wand. Along an icy pond with a frozen moon, a murder of silhouette. Crows I saw and the tears on my face and the skates on the pond, they"}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 31, "text": "What are some of the things that scared you as a kid, either that scared you in real life or movies or music that you found frightening - interesting but frightening?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Everybody loves that."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 32, "text": "Monster movies.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I don't know. I guess, like, the the plastic covers on sofas always scares me. The sound that makes when you sit down on sofas covered with plastic, it crinkles. And I don't know. I used to watch "}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 33, "text": "Wow. Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And monster movies, yeah, sure. But, you know, things that really scared me - I don't know. I guess, you know, I could conjure up just about anything and scare myself, you know, if I heard a sound at "}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 34, "text": "Did you ever see a doctor about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And cars going by sounded like planes. And, yeah, very small sounds in the house got enormous. And - but I think it was just a temporary condition."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 35, "text": "Now, you dropped out of high school. Why did you drop out? Is there something that you want to do instead, or did you just hate going?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They said they couldn't help me."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 36, "text": "Oh, God. Yeah. We had one of those in my elementary school, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wanted to go into the world - enough of this. I didn't like the ceiling in the rooms. I didn't like the holes in the ceiling, the little tiny holes and the corkboard and the little - the long stick "}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 37, "text": "Did any adults try to stop you, either your parents or teachers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just hated all that stuff. I was real sensitive to my visual surroundings. And I just wanted to get out of there."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 38, "text": "So did you succeed in kind of getting out into the world, so to speak?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had good teachers. I had some - my folks broke up when I was about 11. And so I had teachers that I liked a lot, I kind of looked up to. But then they seemed like they couldn't wait to get out into "}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 39, "text": "What'd you do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Pretty much, yeah."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 40, "text": "What's the craziest ride that you got when you were hitchhiking that you would shudder to think about now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I hitchhiked all over the place and - I don't know."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 41, "text": "Tom Waits, thank you so much. It's really been great to talk with you. Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, actually I had some good things that happened to me hitchhiking because I did wind up on New Year's Eve in front of a Pentecostal church. And an old woman named Mrs. Anderson came out to the - I"}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 42, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, we're all done."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 43, "text": "Now, the last time you were on FRESH AIR, which was back in 2002, you said that one of the reasons you wanted a kind of raspy voice when you sang was that when you were a young man, you couldn't wait to be an old man.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross. Today, we're listening back to Terry's interviews with Tom Waits. It's the 20th anniversary of his two albums, \"Alice\" and \"Blood Money.\" Bo"}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 44, "text": "And, you know, you mentioned, like, Louis Armstrong and how when you were, I guess, a teenager, you walked with a cane for a while to effect a certain look.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 45, "text": "And I'm wondering, that desire to, like, be an old man, how's that feeling now", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 46, "text": "- now that, like, you're in your early 60s?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 47, "text": "Well, you're not an old man, but you're closer than you were when you were in your teens, that's for sure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Now that I'm an old man."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 48, "text": "You have a couple of songs about death on the new album and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't know. I guess I've always lived upside down. I want things I can't have. My wife actually thinks that I have a syndrome. It's called reality distortion field. You know, it's kind of like"}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 49, "text": "Yeah. And, you know, like, one is explicitly about death, and one of them is kind of a metaphor for death called \"Last Leaf.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, about death. Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 50, "text": "And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 51, "text": "Oh, really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't know. You could say it's a metaphor for death. Or you could say it's really a song about the last leaf on a tree - you know? - 'cause I did see a tree out in my yard that had one tree - "}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 52, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I looked at that leaf, and I said, hang on, buddy."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 53, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If you hang on, you can make it to the next season. If you can make it to the next one, you might be here next year greeting all the new ones. Hang on. But I remember saying that to myself like I was "}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 54, "text": "Yeah. This is Keith Richards...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But, you know, my wife said, oh, get Keith to sing on that, and..."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 55, "text": "...Who's featured on guitar on several tracks and on vocals...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 56, "text": "...Vocal backup on this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 57, "text": "So let's hear \"Last leaf.\" This is from Tom Waits' new album. \"Bad As Me,\" and features Keith Richards on guitar and backup vocals.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. And we didn't even send it to him. We sent him another one called \"I'm Waiting For My Good Luck To Come.\" And when we got together, he said, you know, put that one on. Put on \"My Good Luck T"}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 58, "text": "That's Tom Waits with Keith Richards singing backup from Tom Waits' new album \"Bad As Me.\" How do you and Keith Richards even know each other?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) When the autumn wind blows, they're already gone. They flutter to the ground 'cause they can't hang on. There's nothing in the world that I ain't seen. I greet all the new ones that are comi"}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 59, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Back in '84, '85 - I don't know - New York, we were doing \"Rain Dogs.\" And my wife said, get Keith to play on this. I said, oh, God, no. I can't. I'm not worthy. And she said, no, get him. And then, o"}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 60, "text": "So there's another great ballad on your album called \"New Year's Eve.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I looked around - scribe? Who's the scribe? And he'd said it again, and now pointing at me - scribe. And I was supposed to have written down everything we said and dreamt of and played. And I real"}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 61, "text": "And the song uses a line that you actually said in our previous interview.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. OK."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 62, "text": "And what you said in the previous interview was that sometimes you used to listen to two radios at the same time...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 63, "text": "...Because you like hearing things incorrectly. And you got a lot of ideas by mishearing something. And..", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, right, yeah."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 64, "text": "And in the song, you use the line, all the noise was disturbing, and I couldn't find Irving. It was like two stations at the same time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 65, "text": "And, I guess, is that an image you've been carrying around for many years, and it finally made its way into a song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 66, "text": "Mmm hmm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That happens. So, yeah, I'm sure I've been carrying it around. The other line in there that I wanted to get into a song was - you know, you ever said to somebody, just keep talking, but don't use any "}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 67, "text": "Well, let's hear \"New Year's Eve.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, like, two spies talking, you know? Or you're talking about drugs, or you're talking about a woman or- you know? And I - that's how the song kind of began, with just that line. And then we ex"}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 68, "text": "OK. Well, this is \"New Year's Eve\" from Tom Waits' new album \"Bad As Me.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 69, "text": "That's \"New Year's Eve\" from Tom Waits' new album \"Bad As Me.\" Back in the days when you were living in a hotel or living on the road...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) It felt like 4 in the morning. What sounded like fireworks turned out to be just what it was. The stars looked like diamonds, and then came the sirens, and everyone started to cuss. All the "}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 70, "text": "...Did you ever imagine that one day you would be married for 30 years and the father of three?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 71, "text": "Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No, I didn't. I admit I do remember disciplining imaginary children in the back seat of my car."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 72, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hold your horses, Bill. It's enough out of you. I don't know why."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 73, "text": "I was such a big fan of \"The Wire.\" I have to...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2011 interview with Tom Waits. It's the 20th anniversary of his albums \"Alice\" and \"Blood Money,\" which are being reissued for the occasion on vinyl with f"}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 74, "text": "It used your song, down - \"Way Down In The Hole\"...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 75, "text": "...As the theme.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Down In The Hole,\" yeah."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 76, "text": "And there were, like, you know, different versions of it. You had a version, Steve Earle...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 77, "text": "...The Blind Boys of Alabama.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 78, "text": "And then this group of Baltimore teenagers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Bunch of people."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 79, "text": "DoMaJe. So can you tell the story behind writing the song? It's a song about keeping the devil down in the hole.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, right, yeah."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 80, "text": "So I want to play two versions, back to back, of \"Way Down In The Hole.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Down in the hole, yeah. I don't know what the origin of the song came, but it was very fast. And needing - we needed a gospel song for this collection of tunes that we'd written for \"Franks Wild Years"}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 81, "text": "Your version and then also the version that was used for Season 4 of \"The Wire\"...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 82, "text": "...Which is this season set, in part...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 83, "text": "...In a junior high. So when these - this group from Baltimore - and like I say, all I know about them is that it's a group of teenagers from Baltimore. I don't know whether they assembled just for this recording or whether they're preexisting group. But did you work with them at all on this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 84, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I didn't. No, I - they kept the song as a theme, and they kept offering it to different groups to rearrange for their own purposes. And I didn't have TV, so I didn't really experience \"The Wire\" u"}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 85, "text": "Oh, it's such a - it works so great as a theme. So let's hear your version and the DoMaJe - if I'm pronouncing that correctly - version back to back.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Of the show and all of the people involved and - after it was over. And I was really flattered to be a part of it, frankly, you know?"}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 86, "text": "That's Tom Waits' version of his song \"Way Down In The Hole\" and then the version that was used in Season 4 of \"The Wire.\" And that theme was used throughout \"The Wire,\" and it worked perfectly, I have to say.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) He's got fire and the fury at his command. Well, you don't got to worry. Hold onto Jesus' hand. We'll be safe from Satan when the thunder rolls. But you got to keep the devil down in the hol"}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 87, "text": "So I just want to quote something that you told The Guardian, the British newspaper, a few years ago, in 2006. And you said when - that when you stopped drinking, you wondered, am I genuinely eccentric? Or am I just wearing a funny hat? What am I made of? What's left when you drain the pool? So I think it was, like, years ago, many years ago, that you gave up drinking. What did you learn about yourself when the alcohol wasn't there anymore?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, cool."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 88, "text": "Oh, like when you stop smoking.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't know what to do with my hands."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 89, "text": "If it's too big, don't feel like you need to answer it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, yeah. I was smoking in one hand and drinking in the other. What did I learn? Boy, that's a big question, Terry. I..."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 90, "text": "Mmm-hmm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's probably like the - what my wife said about the reality distortion field that I live in, which is kind of a place that you don't necessarily come back from, you know? Maybe drugs and alco"}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 91, "text": "Oh, gosh, I hadn't heard that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They say that life itself is really just the dead on vacation, yeah."}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 92, "text": "Did you want to be peculiar?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Isn't that terrible? I don't know. Yeah, am I just wearing a funny hat? Am I just trying to say weird stuff? Or am I really peculiar, and genuinely?"}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 93, "text": "Have you used those sounds on recordings?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I wanted - I've always wanted to be curious and provocative, I guess, and interesting and interested in this kind of sparkling, you know, sapphire we all call home, you know? I've always wanted "}
{"id": "1127461810", "date": "2022-10-07", "guest": "Tom Waits", "title": "Tom Waits says some songs just demand to be sung in a particular way", "question_index": 94, "text": "It was so great to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I haven't, but I intend to."}
{"id": "1128686365", "date": "2022-10-13", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 0, "text": "Ed Yong, welcome back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. After reporting on the first year of the pandemic for The Atlantic, for which he won a Pulitzer Prize, science writer Ed Yong decided he needed "}
{"id": "1128686365", "date": "2022-10-13", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 1, "text": "So your book is about how every animal, including us, is enclosed within its own sensory bubble, as you put it, perceiving but a tiny sliver of an immense world, which leads to the word umwelt, which is a word I'm sure you'll be using. So why don't you describe what it is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hi. Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "1128686365", "date": "2022-10-13", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 2, "text": "Where are you now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So umwelt was popularized by a German biologist named Jakob von Uexkull. The word comes from the German for environment, but von Uexkull wasn't using it to mean the physical environment. He meant the "}
{"id": "1128686365", "date": "2022-10-13", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 3, "text": "OK. So it's not exactly a rich sensory environment. But if...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I am in my home in D.C. I am in the recording studio/shoe closet of the bedroom or, as my wife calls it, our shoedio (ph)."}
{"id": "1128686365", "date": "2022-10-13", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 4, "text": "If you were one of the animals you were writing about or insects or birds, what might you perceive in this studio/closet that you can't perceive now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is not."}
{"id": "1128686365", "date": "2022-10-13", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 5, "text": "Let's talk a little bit about vision. You mentioned ultraviolet light, which we cannot see. All the colors we see are based on three colors - blue, yellow and red, although I really don't understand exactly...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So at the start of the book, I do this - exactly this thought experiment, right? I imagine that I'm - a human is sharing a physical space with a bunch of creatures - say, a rattlesnake, an elephant, a"}
{"id": "1128686365", "date": "2022-10-13", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 6, "text": "Red, green and blue. Wait, I thought green was blue and yellow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Red, green and blue."}
{"id": "1128686365", "date": "2022-10-13", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 7, "text": "No kidding Really? Oh, I didn't know that", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So you're thinking about primary colors, like, with paints. For light, it's different. So for light, it's based on red, green and blue."}
{"id": "1128686365", "date": "2022-10-13", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 8, "text": ". OK. So we see red, green and blue.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So you're thinking about primary colors, like, with paints. For light, it's different. So for light, it's based on red, green and blue."}
{"id": "1128686365", "date": "2022-10-13", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 9, "text": "So what are we missing? Like, for insects that can see or butterflies, I guess, that can see ultraviolet light, what are we missing, for instance, in flowers, which are beautiful enough with what we can see? But what are we missing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. We have three kinds of color-sensitive cells in our eyes that are most sensitive to red, green and blue."}
{"id": "1128686365", "date": "2022-10-13", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 10, "text": "Oh, it's really form follows function.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So flowers, absolutely, are extraordinarily beautiful. But if you had the ultraviolet vision that a bee has, you'll be able to see patterns on those flowers that we can't see. So a sunflower, for exam"}
{"id": "1128686365", "date": "2022-10-13", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 11, "text": "So what exactly is UV light? I mean, we know it's used to, like, sanitize things. And, you know, like my electric toothbrush has a UV light in the little cleanser unit. But in terms of vision, like, what is it? And why can't we usually see it? Like, the UV light in my toothbrush thing, when I turn it on to clean the toothbrush, I see blue. Maybe that's just a blue lightbulb. I don't know.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Right."}
{"id": "1128686365", "date": "2022-10-13", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 12, "text": "So scallops have a lot of eyes. I never thought about whether scallops even had eyes, but they have an eye at the end of each of their mobile tentacles. So how do they work, and how do they coordinate? It sounds very, like, sense surround.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, right. That's the blue part of the light that you can see. So our - we can see light ranging from red to violet, right? It's the classic rainbow of colors that we can perceive. Ultraviolet - lit"}
{"id": "1128686365", "date": "2022-10-13", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk more about some of the things that humans cannot perceive. My guest is Ed Yong, who writes about science at The Atlantic. His new book is called \"An Immense World: How Animal Senses Reveal The Hidden Realms Around Us.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. It is and it isn't. So for most of us, our experience of scallops is just - is going to be a tasty puck of flesh, you know, seared in butter and garlic. That's just part of the entire animal. If "}
{"id": "1128686365", "date": "2022-10-13", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Ed Yong, a science writer for The Atlantic. He won a Pulitzer Prize for his coverage of COVID. His new book is about how animals' senses allow them to perceive sounds, smell sights, echoes, magnetic fields and more that humans are incapable of perceiving with their senses. It's called \"An Immense World: How Animal Senses Reveal The Hidden Realms Around Us.\" Let's talk about echolocation. Why don't you explain what it is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. It is and it isn't. So for most of us, our experience of scallops is just - is going to be a tasty puck of flesh, you know, seared in butter and garlic. That's just part of the entire animal. If "}
{"id": "1128686365", "date": "2022-10-13", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 15, "text": "So I want to talk about another side of bats for a moment, because on the one hand, like, that's so remarkable. They have echolocation. It's something we don't have. We don't have this ultrasonic sound ability. At the same time, now when we think of bats, we're thinking bats may have been the origin of COVID. Bats may have been one of the origins of monkeypox. It's named monkeypox because it was discovered first in a monkey, but it spread initially by rodents. At least that's what scientists think now. So when you think of bats, do you think like, oh, they're amazing, or like, oh, they're real trouble?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Echolocation is a very advanced form of hearing that a lot of animals, like bats and dolphins, use to perceive the world around them. So they make high-pitched, ultrasonic calls beyond the range of hu"}
{"id": "1128686365", "date": "2022-10-13", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 16, "text": "Can we compare the bat's echolocation with an animal that is really, really different - dolphins? 'Cause they use echolocation, too. They're different in terms of the environment they live in, their size, their needs. So could you compare them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Bats do act as reservoirs for viruses. I don't think that they deserve a bad reputation because of that, though. You know, they are extraordinary creatures with extraordinary senses. You know, "}
{"id": "1128686365", "date": "2022-10-13", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 17, "text": "So this was amazing to me. You write that dolphins can visually recognize objects that they first identified through echolocation. They can even identify the object on a video screen. That seems implausible to me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Bats and dolphins are the two masters of echolocation in the animal kingdom. And in some ways, they use it to similar purposes. But the difference between them is mostly because dolphins are echo"}
{"id": "1128686365", "date": "2022-10-13", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 18, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Ed Yong, who writes about science for The Atlantic. His new book is called \"An Immense World: How Animal Senses Reveal The Hidden Realms Around Us.\" We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Absolutely - because when you think about sound, you don't think of creating this rich, three-dimensional representation of an object. You know, if I heard this - if I heard a recording of some"}
{"id": "1128686365", "date": "2022-10-13", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Ed Yong, a science writer for The Atlantic. He won a Pulitzer Prize for his coverage of COVID. His new book is about how animals' senses allow them to perceive sounds, smells, sights, echoes, magnetic fields and more that humans are incapable of perceiving with their senses. The book is called \"An Immense World: How Animal Senses Reveal The Hidden Realms Around Us.\" I want to talk with you about pain, which you describe as the unwanted sense. I heartily agree. And I found this chapter really interesting. As somebody who's very pain averse, I was surprised to hear that not all animals experience pain - or at least the things that might hurt us and cause us to perceive pain, some animals don't perceive it as pain. Give us an example of that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Absolutely - because when you think about sound, you don't think of creating this rich, three-dimensional representation of an object. You know, if I heard this - if I heard a recording of some"}
{"id": "1128686365", "date": "2022-10-13", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 20, "text": "But you write, for instance, about the mole rat, which you said doesn't experience pain from certain acids, like those really hot acids in chili peppers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So a really good example might be to turn to the cephalopods - so octopuses, squid and other related animals. There, what you find is that these creatures' experience of pain varies significantly. So "}
{"id": "1128686365", "date": "2022-10-13", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 21, "text": "Yeah, including, as you say, some hibernating creatures don't experience extreme cold as pain. I mean, they just sleep through it. So what are some of the explanations for why some animals don't perceive pain from some of the substances or things that cause pain in humans?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, if you - if I ate a chili, if there was tons of capsaicin, in it my eyes would water. It would feel really hot. A naked mole rat - it wouldn't bother them at all. Birds also seem to be large"}
{"id": "1128686365", "date": "2022-10-13", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 22, "text": "So I have a cat, and a really interesting thing I learned about cats is that they have muscles in their bellies that sense vibration. Can you elaborate on that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It varies a lot. In terms of temperatures, animals have thermal sensors in their nerve cells that open and cause those cells to fire at specific temperatures. The thresholds for firing might differ fr"}
{"id": "1128686365", "date": "2022-10-13", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 23, "text": "You say you got a puppy during COVID...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So many animals have vibration-sensitive cells in their organs of touch. You know, I have them in my fingertips, for example. It seems that cats have that on their bellies. And one scientist I "}
{"id": "1128686365", "date": "2022-10-13", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 24, "text": "...Named Typo. Great name.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did get a puppy."}
{"id": "1128686365", "date": "2022-10-13", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 25, "text": "And you write that you've been spending more time on the ground, you know, on the floor with your dog. Have you noticed vibrations that you never noticed before?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1128686365", "date": "2022-10-13", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 26, "text": "And you think that the other leafhoppers aren't hearing it. They're feeling the vibrations of it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have, very much so. You know, I can sense the vibrations of our downstairs neighbors coming in to the door - coming in through the front door and walking around. I can tell when cars are driving pas"}
{"id": "1128686365", "date": "2022-10-13", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 27, "text": "All right. Time for another break. Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Ed Yong, a science writer for The Atlantic. His new book is called \"An Immense World: How Animal Senses Reveal The Hidden Realms Around Us.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly, yep. I think that they are feeling those vibrational songs, and I think that the plants around us just course with those vibrational signals."}
{"id": "1128686365", "date": "2022-10-13", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 28, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Ed Yong, a science writer for The Atlantic. He won a Pulitzer Prize for his coverage of COVID. His new book is about how animal senses allow them to perceive sounds, smells, sights, echoes, magnetic fields and more that humans are incapable of perceiving with their senses. It's called \"An Immense World.\" Let's talk about electricity. There's around 350 species of fish that produce their own electricity. How do they use that electricity to communicate and to size up the world around them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly, yep. I think that they are feeling those vibrational songs, and I think that the plants around us just course with those vibrational signals."}
{"id": "1128686365", "date": "2022-10-13", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 29, "text": "I mean, that\u2019s such a theme of science fiction that you could have this, like, superpower of emitting electricity. It really is remarkable how animals have all these things that we attribute in a way to the supernatural or superpowers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So they produce weak electric fields that mostly are too weak for us to detect but that can - but that form the basis of this extraordinary sense. So those fields get distorted by the objects ar"}
{"id": "1128686365", "date": "2022-10-13", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 30, "text": "It\u2019s very humbling.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. And I think one of the big themes about - or one of the big themes of An\" Immense \"World is that these abilities can seem supernatural, but they are actually just natural. It\u2019S just that t"}
{"id": "1128686365", "date": "2022-10-13", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 31, "text": "Now that you've immersed yourself in worlds that you can read about but you can't perceive, how has it changed your sense of the world around you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. Yes, it is. It very much is."}
{"id": "1128686365", "date": "2022-10-13", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 32, "text": "Your book deals with what animals' senses can perceive. It doesn't, I don't think, really raise the question of consciousness. Do you feel like you've learned anything through researching this book about whether animals and fish and butterflies have consciousness?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it does two things. First, it just makes things that felt very familiar feel newly wondrous. So when I walk Typo along the streets of my neighborhood, those streets look exactly the same to me"}
{"id": "1128686365", "date": "2022-10-13", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 33, "text": "I really like the way you end the book, and you write about how most people think of, you know, the majesty of nature as being like canyons and mountains. But you write, equating wilderness with otherworldly magnificence treats it as something remote, accessible only to those with the privilege to travel and explore. It imagines that nature is something separate from humanity rather than something we exist within. Can you talk about that realization?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's a difficult and different question. But I think that the senses provide the foundation for starting to think about - thinking about consciousness. You know, they are like the building blo"}
{"id": "1128686365", "date": "2022-10-13", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 34, "text": "Ed Yong, it's been a pleasure to have you back on the show. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. This speaks to my earlier point that if you start thinking about the umwelt of other animals, you understand that nature's magnificence is all around us. It's in our backyards. It's in our garde"}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 0, "text": "Linda Ronstadt, welcome to FRESH AIR. It is a great pleasure to have you on our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Feeling better now that we're through. Feeling better because I'm over you. I learned my lesson. It left a scar. Now I see how you really are. You're no good. You're no good. You're no good."}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 1, "text": "Well, I want to talk with you about your childhood and your family tree. Reading your memoir, I was just astonished", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much."}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 2, "text": "by the richness of your family tree. So let's start with your grandfather, who was born in Mexico and had a hardware store in Arizona...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much."}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 3, "text": "...And had a lot of business that came across the border from Mexico. Tell us about his music background.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In Tucson, yeah."}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 4, "text": "Did he do a lot of Mexican songs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was the one in Tucson who taught everybody how to play their instruments and assembled a band and wrote the arrangements and wrote a lot of compositions for the band. And he was like the music man,"}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 5, "text": "So while we're talking about some of the music he introduced you to and the music he played, let me play a track from the first of, I think, three albums that you did of Mexican and Spanish songs and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. You know, if you wanted to serenade your sweetheart, you'd get my my grandfather's band to go and serenade her at 2 in the morning. And if you had to have a military parade, well, my grandfa"}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 6, "text": "Mexican songs. And the title of the album, \"Canciones De Mi Padre,\" is the same title that your aunt gave a collection of songs and stories that she published.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They're Mexican songs, yeah."}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 7, "text": "And did he come here because of her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, my aunt was a singer and a dancer. And she was a music scholar, you know, in the teens and 20s of the 20th century. And she traveled all over Mexico and also into Spain. And she collected all the"}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 8, "text": "Right. Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. I'm sure she encouraged him to. But, I mean, he, you know, people of that kind of talent, they make it on their own."}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 9, "text": "So the song...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She just didn't get in the way, you know."}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 10, "text": "Because they were your backup band before they became famous.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Kind of like being the Eagles, you know, I didn't get in their way."}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 11, "text": "So the song I want to play from your first album of Mexican songs is - and I'm going to say this wrong - \"Rogaciano El Huapanguero\".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were my backup band. And I just got out of the way."}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is a beautiful song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Huapanguero, yeah. \"Rogaciano El Huapanguero.\""}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 13, "text": "There's so much emotion in the song. Just say a few words about it before we hear it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A huapango is a certain kind of song that - it's a style of singing."}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 14, "text": "OK. So this is Linda Ronstadt from her first album of Mexican songs, \"Canciones de Mi Padre,\" from 1987.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this music is typical of the mountain regions. And I guess in mountain regions, people develop a kind of a yodeling style because they can throw their voice across - you know, they don't have a "}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 15, "text": "That's my guest, Linda Ronstadt, recorded in 1987. We were talking about how your grandfather introduced you to these kinds of songs and sang these kinds of songs. Your father sang, too. I was surprised to read that Paul Whiteman invited your father to be the boy singer in his band. And, I mean, that's where Bing Crosby got his start.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing in Spanish)."}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 16, "text": "On your mother's side of the family, her father was Lloyd Copeman, who was an inventor. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that was a huge deal because in those days, he was the most well-known bandleader in the country. So that was quite an honor. My father had a beautiful, beautiful baritone voice. He sounded like"}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 17, "text": "Whoa.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was a - yeah, he was a famous inventor. He invented, well, the electric toaster, the electric stove, all the timing devices. He invented the thermostat for Westinghouse, basically."}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 18, "text": "So that leads me to wonder, I mean, did you grow up wealthy? Did your mother inherit a lot of money? That's a lot of inventions.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he invented the pneumatic grease gun, and he invented a dripless paint thing that you put on your paint can so it doesn't drip down the side. It's still in use today. He invented a tamper-proof en"}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 19, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, my grandmother had Parkinson's disease, and it took all his money. He had - he was wealthy from time to - you know..."}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 20, "text": "Wait. You mean - so he tried to invent a cure - as an inventor, to come up with a cure for...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...At certain times. But he spent all his money trying to find a cure for Parkinson's disease."}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 21, "text": "So you form a band with friends, the Stone Poneys, which eventually has the hit \"Different Drum\" in 1967. But that was their second album. The first album, it was a harmony group, and you weren't, like, the lead singer Linda Ronstadt. It was a band. You sang harmonies. I hadn't heard that early work until I was preparing for this interview. And I was really interested in hearing how the early Stone Poneys sounds, so I want to play the first track from that first album. This is \"Sweet Summer Blue and Gold.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he tried to find - you know, he searched everywhere. And people would say, oh, you know, we can cure it? Give us this much money. And he just went through his money trying to find a way to fix h"}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 22, "text": "And do you just want to say a few words about this and about what the band was about in those early days?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God."}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 23, "text": "All right, so this is Linda Ronstadt with the Stone Poneys, the first album that they released.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "you know - and see if it stuck."}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 24, "text": "So that was the Stone Poneys with my guest, Linda Ronstadt, and that was before \"Different Drum.\" This was from their first album. So that's so folk influenced. Was that the direction you were heading in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Look out your window. The rain is turning into snow. So the time has come, you know. You must decide to stay or go. Oh, how you love me. Sweet summer blue and gold. Will you stay with me? Lo"}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 25, "text": "You got a manager, and your manager thought you should really be, like, the soloist. He wasn't that hot on the band, but he liked you and thought he could really promote you. And then, you're ready to record \"Different Drum.\" And you show up to the studio, and, like, your band's not there. It's these different musicians. Tell the story of what happened.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "On the radio in those days, the radio was so wide open. You could hear a jazz song, The Singing Nun, a country song and then, you know, Peter, Paul and Mary, you know, doing sort of what was considere"}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 26, "text": "Don Randi was playing harpsichord", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, originally, we had recorded - I'd heard it - it was a song called \"Different Drum.\" I had learned it off a bluegrass record by the Greenbriar Boys. And I thought it was a hit. But I wanted to re"}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, originally, we had recorded - I'd heard it - it was a song called \"Different Drum.\" I had learned it off a bluegrass record by the Greenbriar Boys. And I thought it was a hit. But I wanted to re"}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 28, "text": "So this is my guest, Linda Ronstadt - \"Different Drum,\" 1967.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, Don Randi was playing harpsichord. He played piano. I was just shocked. And they played the arrangement. I didn't know how to fit the phrasing in. I didn't - it suddenly wasn't the way I was use"}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 29, "text": "That's Linda Ronstadt, recorded in 1967 - a big hit for her, \"Different Drum,\" her first big hit. Did you believe in the lyric about not wanting to be tied down or monogamist? Like, did that describe you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You and I travel to the beat of a different drum. Oh, can't you tell by the way I run every time you make eyes at me? Whoa. You cry and moan and say it will work out. But, honey child, I've "}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 30, "text": "Never been married, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it did. Yes, it does."}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 31, "text": "We're listening to my interview with Linda Ronstadt, recorded in 2013. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No knack for it. You know, I think that the culture supports serial monogamy, and I think I had plenty of that. And I think I was reasonably monogamous in a serial way. But I'm not a good compromiser."}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 32, "text": "You write in the book about how you had to figure out your image and you write, female performers in the folk pop genre were genuinely confused about how to represent themselves. Did we want to be nurturing, stay-at-home earth mothers who cooked and nursed babies, or did we want to be funky mamas at the Troubadour bar, our boot heels to be wandering an independent course like our male counterparts. So where did you see yourself fitting in between, like, the funky mama and the earth mama?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "NO. 3. LA VALENTINA\")"}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 33, "text": "I remember the rumor about Janis Joplin was - and I don't know if you heard this because you were in the music industry, so - and you actually knew her at a distance...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I didn't really fit in there. I was raised to, you know, to wear hat and gloves and polish the silver. And that just wasn't the way I was quite raised. So I was a little bit confused by it."}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 34, "text": "Right. But at a distance, when, like, all of her fans were preparing for, like, the concert, you know, in the college auditorium, like, the rumor that went around was, like, Janis Joplin got so deep into the sexuality of her songs that she actually reached orgasm on stage.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not well, but I knew her a little bit."}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 35, "text": "I doubt that was true, but...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God. Well, I never heard that."}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 36, "text": "I assumed that. But did you ever feel like you had to compete with that kind of image and that kind of, like, level of sexuality that people projected onto her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've never personally had that experience myself, but..."}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 37, "text": "You have a few stories in your new memoir about being propositioned by men who assumed, hey, it's a hippie chick singer - free love. For example, the time when a producer of a TV show that you were doing - you were a guest on the show. He came into your room on the premise that you had to talk about business, and he immediately, like, stripped off all his clothes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I think competition is for horse races, and I never thought I belonged in art. And I never felt that competitive with other girl singers, really. I admired them. If I really admired them, I'd try "}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 38, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was so shocked because I'm really kind of modest, you know. I had a Catholic school upbringing, and we just didn't see a lot of naked bodies. And this guy - I'm telling you - was not the Adonis of s"}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 39, "text": "1971, you perform at Disneyland. And the contract stipulated that you had to wear a bra. And your skirt had to be a certain number of inches from the ground when you were kneeling, which led me to wonder...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. Let's get back to Terry's interview with Linda Ronstadt. Ronstadt's new memoir, \"Feels Like Home,\" is about her Mexican roots. And it includes r"}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 40, "text": "Yeah. Had they seen - so your skirt had to be long enough. Had they seen your act and known that, well, sometimes you don't wear a bra and that you kneel in your show?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah - not very many inches."}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 41, "text": "For anybody?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. They just - that was just the rules, that if you wanted to work at Disneyland, you..."}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 42, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I was laughing. I was going to put the bra on my head, you know, and say, it didn't say in the contract..."}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 43, "text": "In your memoir, you write about how when you found the song \"Heart Like A Wheel,\" the Anna McGarrigle song, which she sang with her sister, Kate, that that song rearranged your entire musical landscape. First, let's start with, why did your musical landscape need rearranging?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I really needed to get paid. They paid really well at Disneyland. That's why we did those silly gigs. But, you know, they always had these silly laws. I think they're very - they were a very uptig"}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 44, "text": "Well, it ended up being the title track of a 1974 album. Let's hear it. This is my guest, Linda Ronstadt, singing \"Heart Like A Wheel.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'd come from this kind of sensibility. My grandfather loved opera. He loved \"La Traviata.\" That was his favorite opera. It's my favorite opera. And he had this kind of, you know, arty, refined "}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 45, "text": "That's my guest, Linda Ronstadt, singing \"Heart Like A Wheel,\" the title track of her 1974 album that also included \"When Will I Be Loved,\" \"Willin',\" \"Faithless Love.\" I think it was after \"Heart Like A Wheel,\" you go to your record company, Capitol Records. And you basically begged them to let you go", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Some say the heart is just like a wheel. When you bend it, you can't mend it. But my love for you is like a sinking ship. And my heart is on that ship out in mid-ocean. When harm is done, no"}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 46, "text": "because you couldn't record what you wanted to record with them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Some say the heart is just like a wheel. When you bend it, you can't mend it. But my love for you is like a sinking ship. And my heart is on that ship out in mid-ocean. When harm is done, no"}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 47, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded with Linda Ronstadt in 2013. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they weren't - I just didn't feel like they really got who I was. And, I mean, to their credit, how could they know? - because I was still shaping who I was. I was morphing into something. It to"}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 48, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 2013 interview with Linda Ronstadt.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they weren't - I just didn't feel like they really got who I was. And, I mean, to their credit, how could they know? - because I was still shaping who I was. I was morphing into something. It to"}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 49, "text": "One of the big decisions you made in your career is that you wanted to sing standards. You wanted to sing songs like Sinatra and Rosemary Clooney had recorded.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they weren't - I just didn't feel like they really got who I was. And, I mean, to their credit, how could they know? - because I was still shaping who I was. I was morphing into something. It to"}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 50, "text": "And you wanted to do it with Nelson Riddle,", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 51, "text": "who had done arrangements for both of them. And you were lucky enough to actually record three albums with him. So let's go back for a moment. How did you first know the American Songbook?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 52, "text": "The title of the album is \"What's New.\" That's a song that so many people have sung. What spoke to you about that song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I heard it on the - first on the Victrola and then on the big hi-fi monaural record player that my father brought home in the '50s. He brought it home with a bunch of records. He brought Louis Armstro"}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 53, "text": "OK. So this is Linda Ronstadt from her first album of standards. And the album is \"What's New.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "you know?"}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 54, "text": "That's Linda Ronstadt from her first album of standards, which is called \"What's New\" and the first of three albums in which she collaborated with the arranger Nelson Riddle. Do you feel like you learned things about music or about how singing fits in with an arrangement by working with Nelson Riddle?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) What's new? How is the world treating you? You haven't changed a bit. Handsome as ever, I must admit. What's new? How did that romance come through? We haven't met since then. Gee, but it's "}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 55, "text": "He - Nelson Riddle died while doing the arrangements for your third album together. That must have been devastating.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I learned a tremendous amount. I mean, I told Nelson - in the beginning, I had the gut, the chutzpah to tell him I needed a really custom fit and that I liked to be involved in the way the arran"}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 56, "text": "You've probably known a lot of people who died young. And I'm thinking - just to name a few - Gram Parsons, Janis Joplin, Jim Morrison.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was devastating 'cause there was only one Nelson Riddle. They don't make any more like him. And, you know, it was the end of an era in a certain way. And we still had one song - one track to record"}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 57, "text": "From the production that you were in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, well, we had the great culling, you know, of people that took drugs, and it was just a disaster and a tragedy. It's just so sad that those people didn't get to live out full lives. And then, the"}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 58, "text": "Oh, you're saying that that was because of AIDS?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, the music director and a lot of the stars. And they're gone. It's a shame. They had amazing careers, and they should - they had many more years in them they could have been around. So "}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 59, "text": "Do you still feel like a bit of a survivor because you made it through this far?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, because of AIDS. And then, now is, you know, old age where, you know, people are dropping around my generation. It's like the senior class in high school. Now we're the seniors, and we're lookin"}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 60, "text": "Yeah, so...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I didn't die young."}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 61, "text": "I want to close with a song from your final album, \"Hummin' To Myself,\" from 2004. And this is the song \"Tell Him I Said Hello.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Whatever I've got - I just feel whatever I've got now is gravy. I feel like I was lucky. I got to live out a lot of my dreams, and I got to, you know, sing with all these wonderful people like Emmy"}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 62, "text": "Oh, good. So did you know this would be your final album when you recorded it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I'm glad you picked that. It's my favorite one."}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 63, "text": "When you say you had to, like, refashion your voice, like, what did you have to do differently?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It wasn't my final album. I made an album after that that I'm really proud of called - it was called \"Adieu False Heart\" that I made with Ann Savoy down in the Cajun country. And I had no voice left, "}
{"id": "1129083580", "date": "2022-10-14", "guest": "Linda Ronstadt", "title": "Linda Ronstadt: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 64, "text": "Well, Linda Ronstadt, it's just been such a pleasure to talk with you, and I wish you the best.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was singing on the - sort of the flat lower part of my voice. I didn't have all the color and the breath and the sort of airy halo that comes. There's a lot of different textures that you can "}
{"id": "1129644971", "date": "2022-10-18", "guest": "Hua Hsu", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. I've been away from the show for the last few weeks dealing with a family medical emergency. Although I'm back today, I'll be gone again for at least another week. I'm grateful to everyone on the show for keeping things going, especially the extraordinary Dave Davies, who's been hosting the show while I'm away. I miss the FRESH AIR team, and I miss doing interviews. I look forward to returning for real soon. Here's the interview I recorded last Thursday. When you were a teenager trying to figure out your own identity and how you want to signal to others who you are, one way to define yourself is by the music you listen to or films, TV shows, video games, videos that you love. Sometimes the more esoteric, the better because it shows off your ability to discover these things before anyone else and shows your discerning taste. My guest Hua Hsua went through that period but remained passionate about pop culture. He's a culture critic at The New Yorker, where he's been a staff writer since 2017. His new memoir reflects on his teenage and college years and his complicated search for identity as the son of immigrants from Taiwan. He writes, we can never write in a way that assumed anyone knew where we were coming from. There was nothing interesting about our context, neither Black nor white, just boring to everyone on the outside. Where do you even begin explaining yourself? His close friend Ken was Japanese American and came from a more assimilated family who had been here for generations. Hua Hsu's identity and his understanding of his past, present and future came to a turning point after Ken, his close friend, was carjacked and shot to death. It was the first time a close friend had died and the only time anyone Hsu knew died so violently and suddenly. That was in 1998, and Hsu's been reflecting on it ever since. This memoir is the result of how, over the years, he continued to write and reflect on the meaning of that friendship and the struggle to find meaning after the murder. The memoir is called \"Stay True.\" Hua Hsu, welcome to FRESH AIR. I love your memoir, and I'm so glad we have this chance to talk.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1129644971", "date": "2022-10-18", "guest": "Hua Hsu", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 1, "text": "You're so obsessed with music and have been since you were a teenager.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks so much for having me. It's really - it's a real delight to be here."}
{"id": "1129644971", "date": "2022-10-18", "guest": "Hua Hsu", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 2, "text": "Your father loved music, classical music when he was living in Taiwan. In the U.S., he discovered Dylan, The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, Aretha, Guns N' Roses, Hendrix, Ray Charles, Neil Young. And as an act of rebellion, you didn't listen to music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1129644971", "date": "2022-10-18", "guest": "Hua Hsu", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 3, "text": "He was listening to music. You'd be listening to baseball games on the radio. I find that so amusing, you know, that someone who's been so obsessed with music for so many years, like, initially rejected it as being, like, uncool.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1129644971", "date": "2022-10-18", "guest": "Hua Hsu", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 4, "text": "You fell in love with Nirvana's \"Smells Like Teen Spirit\" when you were 13, and you became addicted to the feeling that you happened on a secret before everyone else. What was so addicting about that for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I'm a parent now, and I really think that children - you know, you're supposed to not think that what your parents are into is, like, cool or relevant to you and - or at least at certain age"}
{"id": "1129644971", "date": "2022-10-18", "guest": "Hua Hsu", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 5, "text": "What happened when you realized that Nirvana had become, like, really popular? Did you have to renounce them after that because it was no longer, like, your special discovery?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's very funny for me to reflect on it now because, you know, millions - hundreds of millions of people like Nirvana and also have had a very similar experience where, you know, they become"}
{"id": "1129644971", "date": "2022-10-18", "guest": "Hua Hsu", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 6, "text": "There's a paragraph I want to read - want you to read from your book. And it's actually, like, the opening paragraph that gives a sense of the place of music in your life when you were that age - well, when you were a little bit older and could drive.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And it's - again, I feel like this was an incredibly generic experience in retrospect, shared by tens of millions of people. But, you know, I was so invested in them. And all of a sudden when to"}
{"id": "1129644971", "date": "2022-10-18", "guest": "Hua Hsu", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 7, "text": "Mixtapes - does that seem like ancient history to you now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) Back then, there was no such thing as spending too much time in the car. We would have driven anywhere so long as we were together. I always offered my Volvo. First, it seemed like the cool,"}
{"id": "1129644971", "date": "2022-10-18", "guest": "Hua Hsu", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 8, "text": "When your father moved back to Taiwan, when you were still a teenager, you would communicate with him by fax.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It does, although I have been making new mixtapes to sort of give away to people at my readings. So I have - I'm actually sitting next to a stack of 60-minute cassette tapes that I had to buy off eBay"}
{"id": "1129644971", "date": "2022-10-18", "guest": "Hua Hsu", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 9, "text": "And when Kurt Cobain died by suicide, that was a very important, significant moment for you. I mean, you really loved their music. That was the first music you kind of claimed as, like, your own as an independent listener, you know, separate from your father. And you were faxing back and forth with your father about the meaning of Kurt Cobain's death. And I thought he actually had some really interesting things to say about that. Do you want to talk about what he said?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1129644971", "date": "2022-10-18", "guest": "Hua Hsu", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 10, "text": "And he wrote about trying to find meaning in life, but accepting the reality. I thought that was very interesting and maybe very helpful at the time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course. I mean, it was a moment for me when I realized kind of the power of writing in a way because I was trying on a lot of ideas. You know, I think when Kurt Cobain took his own life, there were"}
{"id": "1129644971", "date": "2022-10-18", "guest": "Hua Hsu", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 11, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Hua Hsu, a culture critic for The New Yorker. His new memoir is called \"Stay True.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And, you know, when we - I was a teenager - the main purpose of the fax was for him to help me with my math homework 'cause I was hopeless at math, and he's very good at math. And so we would - "}
{"id": "1129644971", "date": "2022-10-18", "guest": "Hua Hsu", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Hua Hsu, a culture critic for The New Yorker. His new memoir, \"Stay True,\" is about his teenage and college years, how he defined himself by the music he loved, and how the murder of his close friend changed his life. It's also about being the son of immigrants from Taiwan. So I want to talk about your friend Ken, a close friend from your college years who was murdered. And I want to start with your friendship.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And, you know, when we - I was a teenager - the main purpose of the fax was for him to help me with my math homework 'cause I was hopeless at math, and he's very good at math. And so we would - "}
{"id": "1129644971", "date": "2022-10-18", "guest": "Hua Hsu", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 13, "text": "You write about him with a kind of passion that is often reserved for writing about lovers, you know, this, like, incredible bond that you felt and, you know, how you traveled through the world together in a lot of ways. I don't mean geographically around the world, but, you know, through the world of your lives. And I'm wondering if a lot of that feeling of connection and closeness and necessity was in retrospect or if you felt all that at the time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "1129644971", "date": "2022-10-18", "guest": "Hua Hsu", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 14, "text": "Ken and you were pretty different. He came from a - you know, a Japanese American family that had been here for generations. He felt - you know, he was very assimilated. Your parents were immigrants from Taiwan. He dressed more formally than you did; he wore collared shirts. And his tastes in music were, you know, much more mainstream than yours. So what are some of the bands that he liked that you thought, like, these are not good bands? And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a great question. I think being young, you're just sort of drawn to intensity. You know, you think that this is either the best night of your life or the worst night of your life. You think you"}
{"id": "1129644971", "date": "2022-10-18", "guest": "Hua Hsu", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 15, "text": "How were you able to, like, judge people according to their tastes, which you did, and yet still feel this really strong connection to Ken?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1129644971", "date": "2022-10-18", "guest": "Hua Hsu", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 16, "text": "Did he introduce you to any music that you had scorned...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, and I think a lot of it was just my own projection upon him. Like, I think he was a far more complicated person than I initially wrote off. But I definitely wrote him off when I first met him be"}
{"id": "1129644971", "date": "2022-10-18", "guest": "Hua Hsu", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 17, "text": "...Rejected, and realized, oh, it's really not so bad - it's good?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, and I think a lot of it was just my own projection upon him. Like, I think he was a far more complicated person than I initially wrote off. But I definitely wrote him off when I first met him be"}
{"id": "1129644971", "date": "2022-10-18", "guest": "Hua Hsu", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 18, "text": "Would you describe the night that he was murdered after leaving his own housewarming party, which was at a bar or restaurant in Berkeley? It was his party. This was in July of 1998. What are your memories of that night and of him that night?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, I - it's pretty ridiculous. But he was very into Pearl Jam, which was a band that I had dismissed out of hand for kind of, like, really dumb reasons. But, yeah - no, there were a lot o"}
{"id": "1129644971", "date": "2022-10-18", "guest": "Hua Hsu", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 19, "text": "You can't - I don't think, anyways, that you can live every minute of your daily life as if it's the last time you're going to see somebody. I mean, that puts so much weight...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For many years, I was very hung up on that night, not just because it was the night he was killed, but because I had left mid-conversation, you know? A lot of our friendship was based on these really "}
{"id": "1129644971", "date": "2022-10-18", "guest": "Hua Hsu", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 20, "text": "...On every moment.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1129644971", "date": "2022-10-18", "guest": "Hua Hsu", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 21, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Hua Hsu, a culture critic for The New Yorker. His new memoir is called \"Stay True.\" We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And, you know, even talking about it now, it feels a little - it feels just so - I think, for a while, I did feel that way, that, you know, I think - and I've talked to other people who lost fri"}
{"id": "1129644971", "date": "2022-10-18", "guest": "Hua Hsu", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I am Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Hua Hsu, a culture critic for The New Yorker. His new memoir, \"Stay True,\" is about his teenage and college years when he was searching for his own identity. He's the son of immigrants from Taiwan. In his teens, he defined himself by the music he loved, his mixtapes, and the zine in which he wrote about music. In college, his close friend Ken was murdered after being carjacked, and that changed the course of Hua Hsu's his life. When we left off, we were talking about the night of the murder. So when you first found out that when he left his own party late at night that he was carjacked, put into the trunk of his own car, then taken out of the car and shot, how much of that were you told when you were told that he was killed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Load up on guns. Bring your friends. It's fun to lose and to pretend. She's over-bored and self-assured. Oh, no. I know a dirty word. Hello, hello, hello, how low. Hello, hello, hello, how l"}
{"id": "1129644971", "date": "2022-10-18", "guest": "Hua Hsu", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 23, "text": "You accidentally discovered, I think, years later what happened, like, the details of what happened that night.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think we knew any of that. And so the police told his family and told a couple of us that he had been killed. They wouldn't reveal any other details at that time. But within a couple days, I t"}
{"id": "1129644971", "date": "2022-10-18", "guest": "Hua Hsu", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 24, "text": "You were looking at a website for people who wanted their DUIs expunged. It's not like you were looking for, like, who killed your friend Ken, but you realized that this story was his story. And so what did you learn about exactly what happened that night?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1129644971", "date": "2022-10-18", "guest": "Hua Hsu", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 25, "text": "In that document, it said that your friend Ken begged for his life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's weird to put it this way, but I - you know, so I was just searching the internet randomly late one night, and I came across a document, a legal document, that essentially gave the perspective of "}
{"id": "1129644971", "date": "2022-10-18", "guest": "Hua Hsu", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 26, "text": "You must be imagining what that scene was like.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1129644971", "date": "2022-10-18", "guest": "Hua Hsu", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 27, "text": "You know, you and your friends debated whether Ken's murder was a hate crime against specifically an Asian American or whether he just happened to be the person who they chose to rob in part because he was a college student. So you were on the side of, like, this was just, like, a random choice. It wasn't - he wasn't targeted because he was Asian American. Why did you take that side?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I - that's something I didn't know until I read the document. And that was - it was really painful to read and to - you know, there are just so many details in that account - him asking for his "}
{"id": "1129644971", "date": "2022-10-18", "guest": "Hua Hsu", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 28, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. My guest is Hua Hsu, a culture critic for The New Yorker. His new memoir is called \"Stay True.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I've thought about this a lot, especially in recent years, as kind of the category of hate crime seems to have broadened quite a bit. I think at the time, you know, there was this moment whe"}
{"id": "1129644971", "date": "2022-10-18", "guest": "Hua Hsu", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Hua Hsu, a culture critic for The New Yorker. His new memoir, \"Stay True,\" is about his teenage and college years, how he defined himself by the music he loved, and how the murder of his close friend changed his life. It's also about being the son of immigrants from Taiwan. Were there songs that you played over and over again after your friend Ken was killed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I've thought about this a lot, especially in recent years, as kind of the category of hate crime seems to have broadened quite a bit. I think at the time, you know, there was this moment whe"}
{"id": "1129644971", "date": "2022-10-18", "guest": "Hua Hsu", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 30, "text": "So how did \"God Only Knows,\" which is such a great track, how did that compare pre-Ken's death to post-Ken's death and your reaction to it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There were. And there were a lot of songs that I stopped playing altogether as well because they felt too triggering in a way. Like, prior to his death in 1998, I was just listening to a lot of indie "}
{"id": "1129644971", "date": "2022-10-18", "guest": "Hua Hsu", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 31, "text": "And now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one of the things that some of my friends - Ken, Shawn, Ben - and I would do on Friday nights is we would often just drive to this donut shop. And we would listen to this song. And, you know, it"}
{"id": "1129644971", "date": "2022-10-18", "guest": "Hua Hsu", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 32, "text": "I've been thinking about this a lot, about how so many pop songs, especially from the past, are just about falling in love or about, you know, somebody leaving you and you're heartbroken. I think that changed, you know, after Dylan and certainly after rap. But yeah, it's - I mean, in some of those pop songs, both the American popular songbook and, you know, rock pop, soul pop. I mean, they're beautiful songs. They're great songs. But lyrically, they're all finding different ways to say basically the same thing. And sometimes it actually gets frustrating because there's so many other things to sing about.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Now, I love the song again. And I think part of it is kind of having figured out a way to move forward for myself. For me, music was a way of learning like how to be, how to have emotions, basically. "}
{"id": "1129644971", "date": "2022-10-18", "guest": "Hua Hsu", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 33, "text": "You know what I mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1129644971", "date": "2022-10-18", "guest": "Hua Hsu", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 34, "text": "But I think that's changed a lot between, like, singer-songwriters and, you know, Dylan and hip-hop, like I was saying.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I totally agree with you."}
{"id": "1129644971", "date": "2022-10-18", "guest": "Hua Hsu", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 35, "text": "Is there a song you'd like to end with that has a lot of meaning for you surrounding what we've been talking about - about Ken and related things?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I think, like, after Ken's death, I sort of only listened to hip-hop because it was something I liked, but it had no real emotional content for me. Like, it wasn't something that was goi"}
{"id": "1129644971", "date": "2022-10-18", "guest": "Hua Hsu", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 36, "text": "Hua Hsu, it's been a pleasure to talk with you. I'm really glad you wrote your memoir.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, there's a song that sort of accompanied my friends and I through college, and that was - it's Bone Thugs-N-Harmony's song \"Tha Crossroads.\" And, you know, it was a song that came out, I thin"}
{"id": "1129644971", "date": "2022-10-18", "guest": "Hua Hsu", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 37, "text": "Hua Hsu is a culture critic at The New Yorker and an associate professor of English at Vassar College. If you want to find out more about his work or his book, here's how to spell his name. His first name is H-U-A - second name, H-S-U. His new memoir is called \"Stay True.\" After we take a short break, TV critic David Bianculli will review the new season of \"Documentary Now!,\" the series that parodies real documentaries. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Bone, bone, bone, bone, bone, bone, bone, bone, bone. Now tell me what you going to do when there ain't nowhere to run, when judgment comes for you, when judgment comes for you? And what you going to "}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 0, "text": "Let's start with your childhood. You grew up in London. Your mother was an actress. What kind of work did she do?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry Gross interviewed Angela Lansbury twice, first in 1980. But we'll start with an interview recorded 20 years later in 2000."}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 1, "text": "During World War II, when you were young, your brothers were sent to a family in the countryside, as many British children were, to get away from the bombing. But you wanted to stay home. But your school was moving, so you weren't able to go to school. I think you worked out a deal with your mother that you would be tutored at home and then also take singing and dancing lessons?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mother was an Irish actress, and she appeared in a number of various plays during the time that she was working. She started off doing Shaw, George Bernard Shaw and also Shakespeare, and became als"}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 2, "text": "You came to the United States with your mother. I believe it was during World War II.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's absolutely true. And I thank goodness I chose to do that or that she agreed to let me do that. But I think she also was quite happy to have me stay with her. I was the sort of remaining sibling"}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 3, "text": "Did you and your mother both want to act in the United States?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. We came in 1940, which was a terrible year because it was the - during the year was the onset of the really big bombing of Britain. Liverpool was bombed right after we left on our ship, which was"}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 4, "text": "So sometimes you worked as a team. Did you ever feel competitive with your mother?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And also some of the great prep schools outside of the city. And for $25, which in those days was quite a lot of money, we would do scenes from \"Romeo And Juliet.\" And she would do scenes as Desdemona"}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 5, "text": "She felt competitive towards you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I never felt competitive with her, no. I know that eventually I think it crept in, you know, that green-eyed monster sort of crept in from my mother's side. But..."}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 6, "text": "And you started getting roles in movies.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You? Yes, I think so, because she thought, after all, she was a woman. She was only in her 40s. And she was a most beautiful woman, my mother. And she wanted to have a career. She was a very earnest a"}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yeah. Let's talk about what led to that audition you thought you were auditioning for - you thought your first role would be in \"The Picture Of Dorian Gray.\" Can you explain how you got a lead for that movie but ended up making \"Gaslight\" first?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Eventually, of course, when we moved out to Los Angeles - and I got my first big interview, and I got the part. So my career in movies was jump-started by my being accepted for the role of Nancy in \"G"}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 8, "text": "Why don't we hear a short scene from your screen debut in \"Gaslight\"? And in this movie, Charles Boyer plays a husband who's trying to drive his wife mad. His wife is played by Ingrid Bergman. And this is basically a scheme to institutionalize her so he could take her jewels and her money. You play the maid that he hires. In this scene, you're getting flirtatious with him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Well, I was introduced to the studio, which was MGM, by a young man who was being considered for the role of Dorian Gray. His name was Michael Dyne. And he arranged that the casting director woul"}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 9, "text": "Angela Lansbury, was that your bit of business, singing that vaudeville kind of song, \"Up In A Balloon\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What cheek."}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 10, "text": "Were there things that you were very naive and in the dark about in that film that you tried to cover up for so that people wouldn't know how green you were?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Nothing was my idea in that movie. That was all prearranged and thought up by George Cukor - Yeah - And John Van Druten, who was the screenwriter of that."}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 11, "text": "Do you remember any of the more helpful or interesting directions that Cukor gave you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can't honestly say, except by my on-set demeanor. I think my on-set demeanor was a very, very careful, covered, rather shy attitude about what I was doing. You see, I've always been a very private p"}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 12, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, simply that he felt that she was a naughty, rather dirty girl and that that was the way he saw her. And when I gave him that, he thought it was terribly funny. And he encouraged me to be this sn"}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well, you were still a minor when you were making \"Gaslight.\" What kind of special provisions were made for you on the set?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2000 interview with Broadway, movie and TV actress Angela Lansbury, who died last week at age 96. When we left off, they were talking about her first film "}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it was required that there was a social worker with me until my 18th birthday, which I celebrated on the set of \"Gaslight,\" actually. And I always remember it because Ingrid and Charles and George"}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 15, "text": "\"Gaslight\" is one of those movies with really nice black-and-white lighting. Do you remember getting lit for the film and what that process was like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I - but in fact, I had been smoking for a couple years."}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 16, "text": "You were nominated for an Oscar, best supporting actress, for that first role. You lost to Ethel Barrymore", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very well. I do remember very well. Joseph Ruttenberg was the DP on that, and he was an extraordinarily careful, painstaking person when it came to lighting women. And I think some of the shots of Ing"}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 17, "text": ". It must've been pretty heady to be nominated your first time out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very well. I do remember very well. Joseph Ruttenberg was the DP on that, and he was an extraordinarily careful, painstaking person when it came to lighting women. And I think some of the shots of Ing"}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 18, "text": "Did you feel comfortable at MGM in Hollywood in the '40s with all the kind of glamour and publicity surrounding the movies then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Couldn't believe it."}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 19, "text": "Well, how did you feel about playing the older women?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a hard adjustment for me. I wanted to play the game, you know? I wanted to be like the rest of the girls. I was still enough of an adolescent in my heart although I always say that I sort of mi"}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 20, "text": "I think maybe this is a good time to talk about Broadway. Let me ask you about the British production of \"Gypsy,\" in which you played Gypsy Rose Lee's mother, the role...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross, back with more of Terry's interview from 2000 with Broadway, film and TV actress Angela Lansbury. Lansbury died last week. She was 96. Her s"}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 21, "text": "...Originated on Broadway by Ethel Merman. And you were asked to do this in England by Arthur Laurents, who wrote the book and directed the British production. You knew Merman's work. I assume you probably saw her on Broadway in \"Gypsy.\" How did you feel about taking on a role that she had done?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 22, "text": "Well, I should mention that in Craig Zadan's book about Stephen Sondheim, Arthur Laurents really praises your interpretation of this role. And he says, with no disrespect to Merman, it's the first time that the number \"Rose's Turn\" was done the way it should be. It's hair-raising, and it's because Angie's an actress. I know of no one else in the musical theater who can sing as well as she does and be the actress that she is. So I'd like to play part of \"Rose's Turn.\" And this is, you know, toward the end of \"Gypsy.\" You've been the stage mother, you know, throughout your life. And Gypsy Rose Lee has become - your daughter has become a famous stripper. But you're wondering, when's it your turn? When's it your turn to be onstage and to be before the lights? So you're onstage in front of an empty theater and singing your number. And anything else you want to say about it before we hear it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". In 1972, when Barry Brown and Arthur and Fritz Holt, Barry's partner, asked me to do \"Gypsy\" in London, I said, you've got to be kidding. I said, I could no more approach that role having treasured "}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 23, "text": "Here's Angela Lansbury.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, except to say that it's one of the most rewarding pieces of musical theater to perform there is and one of the hardest."}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 24, "text": "Angela Lansbury, doing that number must have been exhausting. I mean, it seems like it would be so emotionally depleting. Forget everything that it does with your throat, but just the emotion of it. What was it like right after that number on - you know, onstage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Rose, singing) Why did I do it? What did it get me? Scrapbooks full of me in the background - give them love, and what does it get you? What does it get you? One quick look as each of them leaves "}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 25, "text": "I wonder what the first things were they told you about it to explain what the show would be like.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're paying tribute to Broadway film and TV actress Angela Lansbury, who died last week. Terry first interviewed her in 1980 when Lansbury was starring as Mrs. Lovett in Stephen So"}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is the third musical that Stephen Sondheim had a contribution to. Of course, he wrote this, but he did the lyrics for \"Gypsy,\" which you starred in. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they took it for granted that I knew the legend because coming from England originally, I know all about Sweeney Todd. When I say I know all about Sweeney Todd, I know that he was almost a Grand"}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 27, "text": "Is he the kind of composer who will sit down at the piano with you and sing his songs for you to give you an idea of what he had in his mind?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. It's the third time I've worked with him, actually."}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 28, "text": "I want to talk with you about the character that you play. Now, you had said that finding the character was left completely to you, and you went back to books written about Sweeney Todd and the original book to find out a little more about the character. Now, you manage in the production to convey simultaneously meanness and humor, an ability to be murderous with an ability to be extremely warm and friendly and huggable, lovable. And you have the audience on your side as you're...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Mrs. Lovett, singing) And no wonder with the price of meat what it is when you get it. Never thought I'd live to see the day. Men'd think it was a treat, finding poor animals what are dying in the"}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 29, "text": "...Participating in these murders. What are some of the ways do you feel that you're able to convey all of that and have the audience with you like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 30, "text": "I want to ask you about a different kind of musical. In the Elvis Presley musical, \"Blue Hawaii,\" you played Elvis' mom", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's return to Terry's interview from 2000 with the late Broadway film and TV actress Angela Lansbury."}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 31, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's return to Terry's interview from 2000 with the late Broadway film and TV actress Angela Lansbury."}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 32, "text": "What did you think about the opportunity to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 33, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's one of my great claims to fame, I don't have to tell you."}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 34, "text": "Were you interested in Elvis at all?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's one of my great claims to fame, I don't have to tell you."}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 35, "text": "What was it like being, like, the adult, the mother in what was clearly, like, a movie for teenagers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course, I was interested in Elvis. Who wouldn't be? I mean, he was such a riveting, dazzling person. But in those days, of course, he'd just come out of the Army. And he was a sweet, sexy, young So"}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 36, "text": "Were there things that were done for Elvis' image in the movie that you found interesting or amusing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you see, I got to play a comedy part. She was really a bit of a character. And I was exercising my Southern accent for the first time. And therefore, it was - I was playing a character. I was pl"}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 37, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't notice that. I wasn't aware of it, particularly. Looking back, he - I just remember him being surrounded with the cousins. And he was always breaking bricks or - he was doing karate at that t"}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 38, "text": "Let's hear a scene from the movie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Just before he was going to shoot. So - but, you know - but he was this wonderfully built, vital young fellow. And he really loved life and was everything everybody expected him to be."}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 39, "text": "Angela Lansbury, the year after you made \"Blue Hawaii,\" you made \"The Manchurian Candidate\" in 1962. And in this movie, a terrific movie, you're a manipulative, domineering mother and wife who's trying to promote the political career of your husband. And it turns out you're actually part of a conspiracy to assassinate the political opponent and take over the country. And in this scene, you're telling your son, who has been brainwashed that he has to be the assassin.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Chad Gates) Mom, it's time..."}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 40, "text": "Wow. And at the end of that speech...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Mrs. Eleanor Shaw Iselin) You are to shoot the presidential nominee through the head. And Johnny will rise gallantly to his feet and lift Ben Arthur's body in his arms, stand in front of the micro"}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 41, "text": "Yes. And at the end of that scene, before you send your son off to kill the candidate, you kiss him on each cheek, then kiss him fully on the mouth.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well-written speech."}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 42, "text": "How did you feel about that scene?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes."}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 43, "text": "And how did you feel about playing such a really evil role?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- very telling."}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 44, "text": "We've talked about your long and really wonderful career on stage and screen. I think some of our listeners will know you best from television for your work on \"Murder, She Wrote\" as Jessica Fletcher, who has solved God knows how many murders over the years that you did that show. Did you ever count how many murders you solved?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They are the best. Any the actress will tell you that evil roles to play are the best. You can go to town, you know? And in that instance, I think that woman had so many layers and so many personas in"}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 45, "text": "Oh, really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Two hundred and sixty-four."}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 46, "text": "What was it like for you after playing so many different roles over the years to settle into one role for several years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 47, "text": "What did you like about her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I first started \"Murder, She Wrote,\" I thought it would last maybe two, three years, you know, or maybe a year if we were lucky. But when it extended and I realized the deep inroads it had made i"}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 48, "text": "You know, the press release for the Kennedy Center Honor describes you as a beloved actress, which I think is pretty accurate. But do you feel beloved?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was the sort of woman I like. And therefore, I enjoyed playing her. And being Jessica was second nature to me because she embodied all of the qualities that I like about women. She was valiant and"}
{"id": "1130199313", "date": "2022-10-21", "guest": "Sweeney Todd", "title": "Remembering Angela Lansbury, a legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 49, "text": "Well, I thank you so very much for talking with us. And congratulations again on the Kennedy Center Honor.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "From playing Jessica Fletcher, yes, I do. I do feel a sense of tremendous warmth from the American public who have known and loved that program. I really do. I know they - I don't know whether they're"}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 0, "text": "Well, you do in a very funny way. I mean, the husband says to his wife as she's handcuffed to the bedpost, he says, I'll teach you me proud beauty...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, \"Gerald's Game\" started with the concept of the woman being chained to the bed. I'd written a book before where a woman and a small child were stuck in a car that was sort of surrounded, if "}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 1, "text": "...Pronouncing beauty the way the landlord in a bad Victorian melodrama.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, exactly."}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 2, "text": "Right, right, right. So you got the corniness and the danger of this kind of S&M sex play. Let's get, Stephen King, to the kind of gore and terror and suspense that you create. There's a scene in \"Gerald's Game,\" your new novel, that I'd like you to read from. And this is a scene in which the wife is still handcuffed to the bedpost. Her husband is laying dead on the floor. And a stray, vicious dog from the area has walked into the house and has started dining on the woman's dead husband. Would you read it for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You can almost see him waxing his mustaches, can't you?"}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 3, "text": "That's Stephen King reading from his novel \"Gerald's Game.\" Do you think of yourself as having taken the horror novel to a kind of more physically explicit place than it had ever been before?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I sure will. (Reading) Gerald's widow's peak was in disarray, probably as a result of the dogs licking the blood out of it. But his glasses were still firmly in place. She could see his eyes half open"}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 4, "text": "Clive Barker, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think that, to some degree, I did do that. I think probably I've been surpassed in that area by some of the people who've come after me. I'm thinking mostly of Clive Barker."}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 5, "text": "When you would see movies like this, did they scare you or just amuse you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, but you realize that when I started reading and experiencing horror, some of it that I was reading and experiencing came from a very graphic wellspring. And I'm thinking about the horror comics "}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 6, "text": "What did you like about being scared when you were young?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, they scared me. You have to remember that we're talking 10 or 11 years old. And even with a picture like \"Teenage Monster,\" where the flying saucer appeared to be a cool cigarette filter tipped wi"}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 7, "text": "Now, what about when you passed real terror? I mean, for instance, if you would pass a car accident, would you look or turn the other way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I liked the total surrender of emotional control. It was very important to me, and I would almost be willing to say sort of a life saver. I'd been raised in a family where emotional control was a real"}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 8, "text": "That's Stephen King reading from his new novel, \"Joyland.\" So this is a crime novel that's set in an amusement park in North Carolina. But there's also an element of the supernatural in it. Why did an amusement park that's kind of very carny seem like a good opportunity to combine crime and the supernatural?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) I stashed my basket of dirty rags and Turtle Wax by the exit door in the arcade. It was 10 past noon, but right then, food wasn't what I was hungry for. I walked slowly along the track and i"}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 9, "text": "Instead of an old hotel.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I always wanted to write a novel set in an amusement park. And in the original concept of \"The Shining,\" that was going to be a family that was caretaking an amusement park at the close of the s"}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Instead of an old hotel, yeah. And I had a title for the book. I was going to call it \"Dark Shine,\" and I think I had a name for the for the amusement park, too. It might have been \"Skyhook\" or someth"}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 11, "text": "So you mentioned the boy in the wheelchair was the first image that came to you. And that boy in the novel is a 10-year-old named Mike who has muscular dystrophy but a special kind, which usually kills you in your early teens or 20s. But Mike has the sight. What is the power that he has?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Come on over. It's just a quarter of a dollar, and everybody wins. Hey, mister, you want to win this big stuffy toy for your girlfriend? She's a beauty, and she deserves - you know, that kind of thing"}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 12, "text": "When you were in your formative years, what were your supernatural fears? And did you always wish you had some of the supernatural powers that you've given some of your characters?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He has a power to see a little bit beyond this world. And he has a very small talent compared to some of the other characters in books that I've written. He's got a little bit of precognition."}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 13, "text": "So you wanted to be scared or, I mean, did you have an avoidance thing with being scared, or did you just want to be scared?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd go back to bed and quake."}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 14, "text": "Are there things that scare you as an adult that you were not aware enough of or smart enough for when you were a kid to understand that these were frightening things?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, I loved it. It was a classic attraction-repulsion thing. I wanted to be scared. I wanted that reaction."}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 15, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you grow up, and you become frightened of different things. And they have a tendency to be real-world things."}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 16, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's been quite a while since I was really afraid that there was a boogeyman in my closet. Although I am still very careful to keep my feet under the covers when I go to sleep because the covers are m"}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 17, "text": "Why is that the thing you're most afraid of?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's the boogeyman in the closet now."}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 18, "text": "Losing your memory.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm afraid of losing my mind."}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 19, "text": "Jordan Peele, welcome to FRESH AIR. I should mention, we can't see Chris, the boyfriend, the African American boyfriend cringing and trying to, like, disappear during that scene. What are some of the things the Allison Williams character did wrong", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Rose) Thank you, officer."}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 20, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Rose) Thank you, officer."}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 21, "text": "So you call your new movie a social thriller. Is that your coinage, social thriller?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, part of this scene is about the white girlfriend, who's dating her first Black boyfriend, getting woke to a certain racial dynamic for the first time. So you know, part of this story i"}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 22, "text": "I like it. So how did you come up with the idea of a social thriller focused around a young African American man who's taken by his white girlfriend to meet her parents, and things don't go as planned for anyone", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is. It is."}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 23, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is. It is."}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 24, "text": "So why the idea of the white girlfriend with a Black boyfriend bringing him to her parents?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. The gestation period for this idea was - you know, kind of spanned several years. And I think one of the most important milestones in that process was just realizing that, you know, every true h"}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 25, "text": "So in horror films, usually, like, the main character has seen something nefarious or is being hunted by a monster or an alien, but no one believes them. And the main character starts to question his or her own sanity. And that kind of happens in your movie, \"Get Out,\" but it has all these racial overtones to it. And I think it's interesting that you're using this form, this genre, to get at that feeling of uncertainty, of not knowing whether what someone has just said or done actually has a racist overtone or maybe you're overreacting. Maybe you're projecting something that isn't fair, you know, because there's that constant uncertainty until we really know what the story is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "At some point, I realized that the movie \"Guess Who's Coming To Dinner\" was really the perfect starting point for this film. I think one of the reasons that film was so - it resonated so powerfully is"}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 26, "text": "Did you experience that a lot, that uncertainty? Like, I don't know what that person said is kind of racist. Or am I just, like, projecting that on? I mean, I've experienced that as a woman a lot. Like, that thing...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. I mean, it's one of the..."}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 27, "text": "...That that guy just said - is that really sexist, or does he understand what he just said? -", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 28, "text": ", you know.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 29, "text": "You know, I've never seen that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's exactly right. I think we're wired, at this point, to look for these interactions and to wonder and to sometimes - you know, to call them like we see them. But we're also, you know, I think, an"}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 30, "text": "Should I see that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is..."}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 31, "text": "You've said that you knew by the time you were 13 that you wanted to make a horror film. How did you know that?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2017 interview with Jordan Peele, the former comic whose frightening films include \"Get Out,\" \"Us\" and \"Nope.\""}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 32, "text": "What's one of the films that really scared you when you were young?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was a very scared child - not - you know, not so much of life, but of the - the demons that lurked in the dark and horror movies terrified me. You know, I'd love watching them. But then, at night, I"}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 33, "text": "Were you afraid of his hands that have these, like, you know, knifelike fingers that you can slash people with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, one of them that really got me was \"Nightmare On Elm Street\". There was - and something about the way that, you know, Freddy operated with so much malice - and also the way that those movies"}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 34, "text": "What did I do wrong", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 35, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 36, "text": "All right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I was scared the knife glove. Yes."}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 37, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know? And, like, you know, like, game over, chump, you know?"}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 38, "text": "You told - I think it was Jason Zinoman in The New York Times that you'd made a list of your favorite types of scares in movies. What are some of those scares that made it to your list?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He, like, kills a guy with a video game or something. And then, like, the audience, like, laughs and is on - and I was not, you know, on Freddy's side. I was, like, terrified of Freddy. So that sort o"}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 39, "text": "This is in your film.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there is, you know, the scare from, you know, \"The Shining,\" where we are turning a corner or entering an area and these little - two little girls are waiting for us at the end of the hallway. A"}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 40, "text": "So one of the things that you draw in this is this fear of somebody kind of like invading your brain, like, not only getting under your skin, but like invading your mind. And that's been a theme of a lot of horror films like \"Invaders From Mars.\" Have you seen that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's, you know, on paper, it shouldn't work, but it was so effective."}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 41, "text": "Oh, that's a great one. I think it's from, like, the 1950s. Like, aliens land and transplant these things into people's heads. And they look like the same person, except they look hypnotized. And they're not behaving the same because they're under the control of these invaders from Mars. But the main character in your movie, the guy, he's a smoker. And his girlfriend's mother offers to hypnotize him and help him stop smoking because that's one of the things she does in her therapy practice. And his friend urges him, don't. She might get into your mind. This figures into the story in a larger way that I won't describe, but I really - watching the film, I was really wondering, like, are you a smoker? Did you try hypnosis?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I haven't seen that one."}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 42, "text": "So Roger Ebert had a phrase he called the idiot plot, which he described that any plot that could be solved instantly if all the characters weren't idiots. And so in horror films, the idiot plot is when the monster's kind of coming after them, and they very, very slowly, like, back away instead of just, like, running. Or, like, they run right into a corner where they're definitely going to be, like, locked in as opposed to, you know, like, getting into a car and driving away. And if they just behaved rationally, the story would end. And they'd be alive at the end of the movie. Did you try to avoid, like, all the idiot plot kind of things when you were writing the film? Like, even if you don't know that expression, did you sense that there's a lot of stupid ways of reacting in some not very good horror films that you wanted to avoid?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I used to smoke. I have not tried hypnosis, but it is something that, you know, I think is kind of universally scary to people, right? This idea that, oh, my God, what - if somebody can probe into my "}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 43, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. I did. Yeah. That was one of the things, especially something that I feel like every horror movie fan is sort of underserved with smart protagonists, certainly Black horror movie fans have been"}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 44, "text": "He wrote \"Rosemary's Baby,\" yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, that was - that's, you know, one of the great routines. And yeah, so this movie - and one of the reasons the Ira Levin school of writing..."}
{"id": "1132221915", "date": "2022-10-28", "guest": "Stephen King", "title": "Fresh Air's Halloween special, with horror masters Stephen King and Jordan Peele", "question_index": 45, "text": "Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He wrote \"Rosemary's Baby.\" And he also wrote \"The Stepford Wives\" and..."}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Billy Porter, welcome to FRESH AIR. You are so great in that role.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Pray Tell) Take a hike and don't ever come back."}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 1, "text": "And your new book is so good. So \"Pose\" is set in the world of ball culture during the AIDS crisis. You were - you describe yourself as adjacent to that world. What was your relationship to ballroom culture?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 2, "text": "What was your impression? What really struck you about the balls?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Did you pattern your version of an emcee on anybody you saw emcee? I know you were told to pattern it after the emcee in a documentary about the ball culture called \"Paris Is Burning,\" but did you draw on your own experiences too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The sense of community, the sense of family, the sense of chosen family, the sense of a group of people who are outcasts choosing life anyway. I understood that. I related to that. I felt a part of th"}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I - you know, I am a person who grew up in a Pentecostal church. You know, I was labeled little preacher man when I was like 5 or 6. I preached my first sermon when I was - my first and last ser"}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 5, "text": "My impression is - you know, he delivers a lot of very cutting put-downs for people whose performances don't measure up in his opinion. My impression reading your book is that you are pretty skilled", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, so to sort of have those kind of oratory skills is something that I've always had. I also went into the role knowing that I needed to ground the character of Pray Tell in something that felt"}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 6, "text": "at that yourself and use it as needed to maintain your demand for respect.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, so to sort of have those kind of oratory skills is something that I've always had. I also went into the role knowing that I needed to ground the character of Pray Tell in something that felt"}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a good way of putting it. But let me be clear."}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 8, "text": "When you were young and getting bullied, was your tongue helpful?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I am not Pray Tell at all. And it is always my last resort. I have a tongue. I can take up for myself. Don't mistake my kindness for weakness. But I am always leading with kindness and compassion firs"}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well, you also say in the book that you had such, like, good, like, enunciation, so clear and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 10, "text": "...That people found that, like - well, people in the 'hood found that to be too white. People thought I was trying to be white from the 'hood. And I was like, I'm not. This is just the way I talk. I don't know what else to say", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 11, "text": ". I came out talking in complete sentences, and I would prefer to continue to do so. And I don't necessarily ascribe to, you know - what we called it at that time was Ebonics. You know, what we call it today - I don't know what we call it today. In the '70s, it was called jive", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 12, "text": ". You know, I just talk like a regular person as far as I'm concerned.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. My guest is Billy Porter, star of the FX series \"Pose\" and the star of the Broadway musical \"Kinky Boots.\" His new memoir is called \"Unprotected.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Billy Porter, the star of the FX series \"Pose\" and the original cast of the Broadway musical \"Kinky Boots.\" He has a new memoir, which is called \"Unprotected.\" One of the really striking things about your memoir is that you had so much working against you growing up. The church was condemning you because it was clear you were gay. And your family was so attached to the church. People at school were bullying you for the same reason, and you got really badly beaten a few times. Your stepfather was sexually abusing you. You - family didn't really have money, but you managed to figure out ways to get into a special school, to go to a high school for performing arts, to get scholarships to Carnegie Mellon so that you could study theater and voice there and then to get yourself from Pittsburgh to New York and get cast in Broadway shows. How much planning did you do as a child to figure out a route to take so that you could use your gift as a singer and a performer and so that you could discover who you really were outside of the confines of your family and of the church?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 15, "text": "I know the story you're going to tell. Go ahead, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was a lot of planning and scheming. You know, I was really blessed to be introduced to musical theater in the sixth grade. And, you know, on the very same day I was introduced to the idea of the"}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 16, "text": "That's interesting. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And the Tony Awards came on, and, you know, Jennifer Holliday sang \"And I Am Telling You I'm Not Going.\" And I was like - I just made a correlation. You know, I didn't understand - for some reason, se"}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 17, "text": "So when you were growing up, you used to go to the library and check out cast recordings. And the librarian there said, here's the only cast recording you're going to need this week. It's \"Sunday In The Park With George.\" And that had a huge impact on you. What was it about \"Sunday In The Park With George\" that spoke to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That wasn't how I sang, right? Like, so it was seeing her. It was seeing Jennifer. It was seeing that show that helped me understand, oh, I can make a living doing this. I'm going to figure out every "}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 18, "text": "Let's stick with Sondheim for a moment. You auditioned for a revival of \"Into The Woods,\" which is the Sondheim-James Lapine musical based on fairytales. And you auditioned for The Baker. You auditioned for James Lapine, who wrote the book for \"Into The Woods\" and was directing this revival. You auditioned for The Baker, and he thought you weren't quite right for it, but you really wanted to play The Witch.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, even at that age, I understood the healing power of art. \"Sunday In The Park With George\" is about that. It's about getting to the truth of yourself as a human being through your art. I don'"}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 19, "text": "He brought it up, OK. So what did he say, and what was your reaction?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he brought it up."}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 20, "text": "They gagged?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 21, "text": "So", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Gagged - that's queenglish (ph) for they had an amazing response."}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 22, "text": "- OK, so but then 9/11 happened, and then you never heard from them again. Yeah, so you never got to do it. You did, I will add, end up doing an all-Black production of Sondheim songs. I don't know if it was a revue or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Gagged - that's queenglish (ph) for they had an amazing response."}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 23, "text": "But what I want to do here is play your recording of \"The Last Midnight\" (ph), which is featured on your album \"At The Corner Of Broadway + Soul.\" And I really like this version of it, Billy. So let's hear it. So this is my guest, Billy Porter, singing \"The Last Midnight\" (ph) from the Sondheim musical \"Into The Woods.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a revue of Sondheim's music."}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 24, "text": "That was my guest, Billy Porter, singing Sondheim's \"The Last Midnight\" (ph) from the show \"Into The Woods,\" and it's featured on his album \"At The Corner Of Broadway + Soul.\" If you're just joining us, my guest is Billy Porter. He's the star of the FX series \"Pose,\" and he starred in the Broadway musical \"Kinky Boots.\" His new memoir is called \"Unprotected.\" We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) It's the last midnight. It's the last wish. It's the last midnight. Soon it will be boom, squish. Told a little lie, stole a little gold, broke a little vow, did you? Had to get your prince,"}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Let's talk a little about your book. There's a lot of trauma in the book, starting with the Pentecostal Church. You know, as we talked about, you were - you were called like little preacher?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross. Let's get back to Terry's interview with Billy Porter, recorded last year. He won an Emmy for his starring role in the FX series \"Pose\" abou"}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 26, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "..."}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 27, "text": "And your mother was very religious - still is. And church was in a way the place where you were damned because they thought you were too effeminate and leaning toward gay, which would be, like, big sin in your church, the Pentecostal Church.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...When I was young."}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 28, "text": "Abomination, yes, but it's also the place where people recognized you had a gift. You have the gift of speaking. You had the gift of singing, and what a gift it is. So that, I'm sure, was very confusing for you. How much did you believe that you were going to be damned?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "An abomination."}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 29, "text": "When you were diagnosed with HIV a few years ago, was the fear still with you because? People were saying, like, you know, AIDS is God's curse for homosexuality. And you heard that a lot because you were at a lot of ACT UP protests. And there were always protesters of the protesters.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When it's the only thing you know, it's the only thing that you can believe. It was in the sixth grade when I was introduced to theater and bust - you know, in the second sort of wave of desegregation"}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 30, "text": "Yes. Yes, exactly. Exactly. In \"Pose,\" your character is diagnosed with AIDS. And if you're still in the middle of watching \"Pose\" as you're listening now, put your hands over your ears as I say this next sentence.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 31, "text": "OK, that's sufficient time for hands over ears. Your character, at the end of the series, dies of AIDS. What was it like for you, knowing that you had HIV and that it was under control? You were - you're taking the medicines. They were doing their job. And you were playing somebody who was dying. You say in your book, your body doesn't know the difference between performing something and actually living through something. So what was it like for you to have to live your character's experience, dying of AIDS?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 32, "text": "What did you mean that it was your rebirth?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I have to say, the first two seasons, I was so excited that somebody was finally taking me seriously as an actor that I didn't even realize I was being triggered. You know, I was so excited "}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 33, "text": "You kept that secret for years 'cause you were diagnosed in '07.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because I was getting ready to tell the world that I was HIV-positive, and I was getting ready to get myself free. And I knew that that was happening. I set myself free, honey - no more secrets."}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 34, "text": "Yeah. What was it like to keep that secret for so long? And why did you feel you needed to keep it secret?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, 14 years."}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Were there also practical reasons for keeping it secret, like fear that no one would take a chance on you, fearing that you'd be sick, that you couldn't get insurance if you were in a movie?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Shame. You know, shame is a silencer. Shame is a killer. Shame is a murderer. And, you know, I had nothing but shame in my entire life. And so, you know, it was working through - actively working thro"}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 36, "text": "She's had a hard life. She was diagnosed with a degenerative neurological disorder. So your mother married a man who became abusive after a year, so she left him. You were born during that year. So she took you and left. And then she was told by a psychologist that she needed a man in the house. And the - you were seeing that psychologist. Had you been seeing him to make you straight? Was that the point?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was 2007, and, you know, I didn't know, and I wasn't working, and I was on the precipice of obscurity, so I wasn't trying to, like, you know, throw another wrench into just another reason for someb"}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 37, "text": "Well, she did get married again. And at first, he just seemed great. It was great for you to have a father figure. He taught you all kinds of things like how to use public transportation. He had tools. He had - you know, he had stuff that was really helpful to you. And then one night, he asked you if you knew about the birds and the bees. And you had no idea what he was talking about, so he explained a little bit. And he asked you if you wanted to see what an adult man looked like. And you said, sure, and he took off his clothes and showed you. And that was the beginning of his abuse. Did you know that you were being abused?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, in retrospect, yes. You know, I was raised by a lot of women. There were a lot of women. And I was effeminate. And we were religious. And they were afraid that I was too effeminate. And "}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 38, "text": "That he was teaching you how to be a man?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, because I thought those were my man lessons."}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 39, "text": "How old were you when this started?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that was what the man said. I just assumed that was what was happening, you know, because he came into my room. You know, when I would have nightmares prior to my stepfather, my mother would com"}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 40, "text": "Seven-year-olds don't have affairs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Seven, 7 to 12."}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 41, "text": "No.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct. That's what my therapist told me at 25. You don't have that language at 7."}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 42, "text": "So do you think when you were growing up that the abuse affected you in ways that you didn't understand were connected to your stepfather?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You don't have that language at 12. You don't know that the man that your mother married because the doctor told her to get a man around the house - the doctor told her to get a man around the house s"}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 43, "text": "Including the ulcers that you developed when you were a child?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 44, "text": "Years or months?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, I had ulcers in the seventh grade, in the sixth and seventh grade. I had nodes on my vocal cords in the eighth grade. You know, later on in life, once again, when I was in my 30s, I su"}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 45, "text": "When did you tell your mother?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Years, years. I couldn't rely on it. I could still sing, but it was like it could just go away at any given moment. And that was just new, and that was terrifying, and that was really, really hard."}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 46, "text": "And what was her reaction?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I told her when I was 16."}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 47, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. My guest is Billy Porter, star of the FX series \"Pose\" and the star of the Broadway musical \"Kinky Boots.\" His new memoir is called \"Unprotected.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "weird and wild and quite damaging. And there's been a lot of, you know, healing with that, with mom. And, you know, I'm grateful for that. I'm grateful to be able to communicate about it and talk abou"}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 48, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Billy Porter, the star of the FX series \"Pose\" and the original cast of the Broadway musical \"Kinky Boots.\" He has a new memoir, which is called \"Unprotected.\" You were the star of the musical \"Kinky Boots\" in the original cast, and you played Lola, who's the drag queen. Did that character strike you as three-dimensional, as real?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "weird and wild and quite damaging. And there's been a lot of, you know, healing with that, with mom. And, you know, I'm grateful for that. I'm grateful to be able to communicate about it and talk abou"}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 49, "text": "Your part was originally written to be a boxer who dresses in women's clothes or who likes to dress in women's clothes. I didn't see the British production in which the character really was a boxer who I think was probably presumed to be straight. And you suggested changing the role. What did you say? And how did you get to prevail in that argument?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course, that's the reason why I did it. You know, I was gone from Broadway for 13 years, and then Lola showed up. You know, what people don't really understand is that Lola is the first, a Black, o"}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 50, "text": "Did anybody raise their hand?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just went in and got the part, right? And so then I put the role together because, you know, a lot of people may not know, but it was a movie. And it was a movie with Chiwetel Ejiofor. And he was a "}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 51, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just went in and got the part, right? And so then I put the role together because, you know, a lot of people may not know, but it was a movie. And it was a movie with Chiwetel Ejiofor. And he was a "}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 52, "text": "Let's pause here and listen to you from the cast recording of \"Kinky Boots.\" This is you singing \"Land Of Lola.\" So here's my guest, Billy Porter.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And the answer was a resounding no. And I got my way."}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 53, "text": "So that's my guest, Billy Porter, singing \"Land Of Lola\" from the original cast recording of \"Kinky Boots,\" and the album won a Grammy. His performance in the show won a Tony. Let's take another break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Billy Porter. And he has a new memoir called \"Unprotected.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Leave expectations at the door. Just let your eyes explore my cinematic flair, from my boot to derriere. I've got a lacy, silken feel with arms as hard as steel. I am freedom. I'm constricti"}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 54, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Billy Porter, the star of the FX series \"Pose\" and the original cast of the Broadway musical \"Kinky Boots.\" He moved to New York City in 1990 at the age of 21 to work in the ensemble of \"Miss Saigon\" on Broadway. When you got to New York during the AIDS epidemic, what was it like for you to have friends and mentors who were dying of AIDS? I mean, you were new to this community. People who you became close to were very sick. And you lost people who were really important to you at a crucial time in your life when you must have been feeling very vulnerable too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Leave expectations at the door. Just let your eyes explore my cinematic flair, from my boot to derriere. I've got a lacy, silken feel with arms as hard as steel. I am freedom. I'm constricti"}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 55, "text": "In this moment, do you mean...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a call to action. You know, we all just went straight to the front lines to fight for our lives and make a difference. And I am grateful to have had that experience because now I know what to d"}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 56, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That we are in in this world, in this moment right now that we're in, in this world, where everything is trying to go back to what it was before. We got to go fight again. And I actually know how to d"}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 57, "text": "And so you're talking about authoritarianism and Black Lives Matter and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...As a result of what I've already been through. So no, I'm not scared. No, I'm not terrified. Yes, I see everything that you all are doing. And the answer is no, we're not going back, ever."}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 58, "text": "And the pandemic.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I'm talking about all the s*** that's happening right now, yes, all of it."}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 59, "text": "Yeah, I hear you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The pandemic, the laws, the transgender laws, the voting restriction laws. You know what I'm talking about - everything that is going on in this world today..."}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 60, "text": "So now I have to ask you about clothes. Your clothes are fabulous, and you have these designers that you work with. And like I said, they manage to be both, like, elegant and outrageous at the same time, which I think is really hard to do. So what do you want to say with fashion when you are out in the public?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...That's trying to wrench us back into a time that we done already fought for this stuff. We fought for this stuff already. I was a part of the fight for this stuff, which engages me in this moment t"}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 61, "text": "Well, the outfit that you wore that most expresses gender fluidity through clothing is - and it's like a perfect, like, metaphor for it - is the tuxedo gown, which was the elegant tuxedo on top and the bottom was this, you know, flared gown. And that was your idea, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm first-generation post-civil rights movement, and we were taught that the first impression is what you look like. And so you know, I also grew up in the church - in the Black church. And as w"}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 62, "text": "And did you want something that literally said gender fluidity?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it was."}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 63, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I did. You know, I got the call to host the ABC red carpet, like, two weeks out. I just so happened to be at my first Fashion Week. I was at the Christian Siriano show. And so I just started thin"}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 64, "text": "Yeah", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If it's going to happen, it's going to happen now or never. And then I thought, well, wouldn't it be great if it - you know, if the shot was from the chest up, the first shot you saw was me, you know,"}
{"id": "1134286332", "date": "2022-11-04", "guest": "Billy Porter", "title": "Billy Porter makes peace with himself: 'I set myself free, honey. No more secrets'", "question_index": 65, "text": ". It was really great. Billy Porter, it's been wonderful to talk with you. Thank you so much for your work. Thank you for your new book. And thank you for doing this interview. It's been just a pleasure to talk with you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If it's going to happen, it's going to happen now or never. And then I thought, well, wouldn't it be great if it - you know, if the shot was from the chest up, the first shot you saw was me, you know,"}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 0, "text": "Linda Gail Lewis, welcome to FRESH AIR. Robbie Fulks, welcome back to FRESH AIR, and congratulations on your album, \"Wild! Wild! Wild!\" So, Linda, we just heard a sample of your piano style, which is very similar to your brother Jerry Lee Lewis' piano style. But you didn't start playing until you were 30 or 40 or something.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I'm the sister of a hell raiser, the daughter of an old tomcat. I was playin' the piano in a honky-tonk before you bragged about that. If it's a song about hard, hard livin' (ph), it's a son"}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 1, "text": "What did he show you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was actually 40. You know, I knew the basic chords on the piano, you know, like, for just accompanying myself if I was writing a song or just singing a gospel song or a country song or something. Bu"}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 2, "text": "What about the glissandos where you slide down the notes of the piano?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He showed me basically this - I call it the Jerry Lee Lewis invention because it's kind of like a Bach invention, only it's for boogie-woogie and rock 'n' roll. He came up with this thing for me to pl"}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 3, "text": "I always think it must tear up your hands.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That just comes naturally to me."}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 4, "text": "Does it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It does."}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 5, "text": "OK. You're both from very different backgrounds. So, Linda, let me ask you. You grew up in a shack in Louisiana. Would you describe the shack for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It does."}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 6, "text": "Most of the other kids weren't as poor.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was this gray building. There was kind of, like, holes in it in places. And we didn't have a bathroom on the inside. We had to bathe in a tin tub out on the porch in the summer or in the kitc"}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 7, "text": "Well, yeah, because, you know, he became famous as Jerry Lee Lewis. He signed with Sun Records, and people know how that story went. So it must have really profoundly affected your family life when there was money coming in and he became famous.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't see any other shacks exactly like that one, maybe one or two. But still, when it's you getting off the bus and it's your shack, it's embarrassing. So it was hard for me. But, you know, I was "}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 8, "text": "Everyone in your family made music, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it was wonderful. We went to Memphis. I remember our first trip to Memphis. It was so great. But, of course, the main thing that I remember is that Jerry bought us a new house in town, a nice bric"}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 9, "text": "So one thing you have in common in terms of your background is I think, you know, you both grew up in musical families, although, Linda, there was a famous person in your family. Well, not just Jerry Lee Lewis. Jimmy Swaggart is your cousin, and he's, like, the famous televangelist - a famous televangelist preacher. But he performed in those shows, too - didn't he? - like, sing and play.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yes. My mama was a great singer. She was the song leader in our church. And Daddy played guitar, and he played a little bit of piano."}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 10, "text": "Right. And the scandal involved a prostitute and pornography.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he's a great singer, and he's a great preacher. And he was off of TV for a while because of the scandal. But he's back on now."}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 11, "text": "Is that true?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 12, "text": "But you don't think he was framed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did have a couple of people tell me that. Yes."}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 13, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that's far-fetched."}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 14, "text": "OK. So - and did you both grow up singing in church a lot, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I love Jimmy, and I wouldn't say anything bad about him, but that'd be a bit far-fetched."}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 15, "text": "Did you sing a lot of church songs at home even though you just did a little singing in church, Robbie?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 16, "text": "So, Linda, I think your family helped build the church that your family belonged to.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I'm trying to remember. I did a lot of singing with my family, and I went to - I stopped going to church, partly because we were living so far from anything and I didn't have transportation."}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 17, "text": "And that was your church.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they did. You know, it was a Holy Roller church, so it wasn't so popular. In our little town of Ferriday, you'd have, like, a thousand people attending the Baptist church and maybe 500 the Metho"}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 18, "text": "So what kind of music was in the church?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that was our church."}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it was great music. And Robbie would have loved it, you know?"}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 20, "text": "I'm wondering if your brother and you first got your hands on a piano in church 'cause if you were living in a shack, I doubt there was a piano in the shack.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He'd probably have been finding a way to get to church if he was going to that one. It was just - you know, it was wonderful music, upbeat most of the time - not all the time. But it was very emotiona"}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 21, "text": "In the shack?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my mama and daddy found a way to get my brother a piano when he was 8 years old."}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 22, "text": "In the shack with the holes in it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, in - I guess, yeah. We were still..."}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 23, "text": "No.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he - they bought it from my aunt. My Aunt Eva had a piano she had bought for her daughter Norma Jean (ph). And Norma Jean just wouldn't take the lessons and play the piano. So she said she just "}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 24, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Because they lived up over their cafe that they had. They had a cafe. And they lived up over it, so it was upstairs. And Jerry told me, he said, I can't believe how Daddy could move that piano down"}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 25, "text": "So you sing great harmonies together. Did that come naturally? I mean, Linda, you certainly sang a lot of harmonies with your brother in the past.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's return to the interview and performance from our archives with pianist and singer Linda Gail Lewis, the younger sister of Jerry Lee Lewis, and singer-songwriter Robbie Fulks. "}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 26, "text": "Can I ask you to do a song that you also do on the new album, \"Wild! Wild! Wild!\"? I'm going to ask you to sing your duet of \"On The Jericho Road.\" And did you both know this song before you decided to do it together?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I have. You know, my brother's a great singer, and so is Robbie. So it reminds me of doing duets with my brother. And it wasn't hard for me to sing with Robbie. I love singing with him."}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 27, "text": "Oh, thank you for that. I loved it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Each burden he'll bear. Each sorrow he'll share. There's never a care. Precious Jesus is there. There's never a care. Precious Jesus is there."}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 28, "text": "Oh, it was wonderful. And let me reintroduce you. My guests are Robbie Fulks, songwriter-singer, guitarist, and Linda Gail Lewis, who's a pianist and singer and sometimes songwriter as well and also the sister of Jerry Lee Lewis. So we just heard you sing \"On The Jericho Road,\" which is a very Christian song. And Linda, I think you're still in the church.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Warts and all."}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 29, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm not exactly in a church. They won't have me."}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 30, "text": "But you're still deeply a Christian.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I am a Christian."}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 31, "text": "And, Robbie, as I remember from our last interview, you completely moved away from the church.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But, yes, I do go to church occasionally. But I don't, like, belong to a church. But I'm very spiritual, and I love the Lord."}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 32, "text": "Are you OK with that, Linda?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I'm an atheist, which I haven't really discussed with Linda until this moment. But there it is."}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 33, "text": "Your secret is long out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I already knew that he was an atheist. I read it on one of those social media things."}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 34, "text": "But you still love singing those songs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Cat's out of the bag."}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 35, "text": "Linda, what did your parents think, being such church people, when Jerry Lee Lewis, along with you, his younger sister, started performing these, like, wild songs, totally secular, kind of blasphemous probably within your church? So how did that go over in the family? Now, granted, he was bringing in a lot of money and got the family out of poverty, so I'm sure they liked that. But there was a lot that went along with that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I really do. I mean, they're great songs. I mean, songs about belief, you know, that's what makes a love song great 'cause you believe it when you sing it. And songs about transcendental belief, to me"}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 36, "text": "Did you ever feel like you were going to go to hell because of the music you were playing or the life you were living?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, my parents defended my brother always. And they didn't necessarily agree with his theory, which is that he was doing the devil's music. They didn't really feel that like he did. And - "}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 37, "text": "Even when you were young and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I never felt that way."}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 38, "text": "Of hell?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when I was young, I was scared to death. I mean..."}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 39, "text": "Sure. But then you're going from that to - I mean, you were married at the age of 14. You - I mean, you were drinking. You were on the road with your brother. I mean, that is not, like, what would be defined as the righteous life, if you want - do you know what I'm saying?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of - yeah, of hell. I mean, those preachers would preach those sermons and would scare you to death."}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 40, "text": "Yeah, that's what I'm saying.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was pretty crazy as a kid."}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 41, "text": "So in those early days of being wild, as in \"Wild! Wild! Wild!,\" the album title...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I was."}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 42, "text": "...Did you worry about hell? Did you worry about, you know, not being redeemed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Back in the day."}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 43, "text": "Tell us a little bit about what it was like to be performing with your brother when you were in your early teens.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And had a chance to think about it. But yes, I probably did worry about it. But I've just always felt like that Jesus forgives us of our sins because that's what the Bible says. And a lot of people"}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 44, "text": "So you were - you met Elvis Presley. You probably met all the rockabilly performers and a lot of other now-famous performers, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 45, "text": "So we've heard you do duets together. And you've also both recorded a lot solo. What are some of the pleasures of singing harmony?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's been absolutely wonderful. I mean, Chuck Berry and Little Richard - and Fats Domino was a lovely man. It was so great being around all those guys."}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 46, "text": "Oh, that's great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I really - I enjoy harmonizing. Of course, I did with my brother and with my sister, Frankie Jean. And then now my son and my daughter sing with me. And that's a lot of fun when we do that."}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 47, "text": "It has been so great to have you both here. Thank you for being so generous, playing your music for us. I really loved hearing it. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes, of course. And the thing that mostly that I would do with my kids would be like gospel or folk music or something. But, yeah, the country songs with a man and a woman singing a duet, I think "}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 48, "text": "Well, let's talk about your story as you actually lived it. How did you first meet Jerry Lee Lewis?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I walked in and I started watching this movie, which I put off about as long as I could - and my family drug me there. They said, you've got to go with us and see this. What I sat down and saw wa"}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 49, "text": "Your marriage to him became a scandal because you were 13 and he was 22 and you were second cousins. Did that seem unusual to you at the time - your age and marrying as second cousins?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, I met Jerry by way of my father bringing him to Memphis. My father had been injured on the job, and he went to Louisiana looking for his first cousin, Jerry Lee Lewis, who he had not met. But h"}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 50, "text": "And I think his sister had married when she was 12.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It did to me. You've got to remember I grew up in a city. I grew up in Memphis, Tenn., the suburbs of the city. Jerry grew up on a farm in Louisiana. Where he came from, it was not unusual. But when J"}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 51, "text": "So it really wasn't that unusual in his family.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes."}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 52, "text": "How did you get married since you were underage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It wasn't unusual. His mother had married, I think, when she was 16. Of course, my mother married when she was 16. But they had left that part of the country, and I had not been raised in that environ"}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 53, "text": "You were in what grade when you got married?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Jerry went to the courthouse in Mississippi. He took a girl that posed as me. She signed the certificate and said that she was Myra Gale Brown. And they put on there that she was 22 years old. A"}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 54, "text": "Did you drop out after you were married?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The eighth."}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 55, "text": "You know, I'm thinking about what it must have been like to be married - you were 13, and he was 22 - but not only to be married, to be married to this, like, super-libidinous husband, you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, in 1958, there was a law that said you could not attend school if you were married, which was there to discourage young marriages. But all, in essence, it discouraged was an education. So, of c"}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 56, "text": "I mean, your husband was someone who was singing the most kind of wild, sexy lyrics, you know? And he really had a very kind of sexually charged persona as a performer. Did you feel at all physically or mentally prepared for a marital, sexual relationship?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, in 1958, there was a law that said you could not attend school if you were married, which was there to discourage young marriages. But all, in essence, it discouraged was an education. So, of c"}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 57, "text": "Did you find sexuality normal or disturbing when you were that young?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I was not prepared for anything. I had no idea what was expected of me. I had no idea what I was supposed to do or how I was supposed to do it. I did not grow up and get married. I got married and"}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 58, "text": "You are really a classic example of going from living in your parents' house to living in your husband's house and going from having parents as the authority figures to having husband as authority figure without having any time as an independent person. And the impression I got is that Jerry Lee Lewis really was an authority figure in the home and that he tried to control you in many ways. You say that he tried to choose the clothes you wore, the books you read, told you not to wear makeup, chose the records that you could listen to. And I was really curious what records he didn't want you to listen to.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did not find it disturbing. I don't know what I found it. I found it my obligation more than anything else. I was very unknowledgeable about anything. As a matter of fact, I believe Jerry knew I was"}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 59, "text": "Anything else?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If they had his name on them, I could listen to them."}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 60, "text": "Did it seem like - did it ever seem really hypocritical to you that here was this wild guy whose behavior really knew no bounds but for you, his wife, he would draw the line and, you know, make you toe the line?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And if they didn't, I was not supposed to be listening."}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 61, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's called a double standard, Terry."}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 62, "text": "Were you aware of it being that way? Did you ever object to it when you were 12? Or did you just accept, well, that must be the way things are?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's called a double standard, Terry."}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 63, "text": "Well, let's describe the story a little bit. What happened was, as you said, you went with Jerry Lee Lewis on tour to England. It was his first performances there. There was a big press conference at the airport, I think it was.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1989 interview with Myra Lewis Williams. She married Jerry Lee Lewis, her second cousin, when she was 13 years old in 1958 and divorced him 13 years later "}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 64, "text": "And one reporter asked who you were, and you said that you were Jerry Lewis' wife, and he asked you your age.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We arrived in London, and the press was there to meet and greet Jerry and take photographs."}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 65, "text": "Did you feel like he was pretty well blacklisted after the story broke?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He asked my age. And I decided - Jerry had talked about me telling people that I was older, and he was trying to tell people that I was older anyway. And instead of being 13, I told him I was 15. I th"}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 66, "text": "Now, when his income plummeted and his career kind of stopped dead in its tracks, did he blame you for it because of your age, because you'd said something to that reporter?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, he was. There's no doubt about it. It was - for 10 years, Jerry's records were held off the air. He could not get a decent concert date. There were certain radio stations that would not touch him "}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 67, "text": "Did he still play at home even when he wasn't getting good performance dates?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, Jerry never blamed me. That was one good thing about Jerry. He never pointed the finger and said, this is your fault. If he was ever put on the spot with it, he would put his arm around me and say"}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 68, "text": "You were pregnant when you were 15 and - is that right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. He played every day. He played two or three times every day. Jerry would also make chords in the middle of the night with his fingers. If his hand was resting on my shoulder, it would be chor"}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 69, "text": "Oh, OK. OK. And so you had a son at the age of 14. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, my child was born when I was 14."}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 70, "text": "He died at the age of 3 in a drowning accident in a friend's swimming pool. When that happened, did you think God was punishing you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes."}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 71, "text": "Uh-huh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I never thought that. Jerry thought God was punishing him."}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 72, "text": "So you say that Jerry, though, thought that God was punishing him with this death. Was he afraid that he would go to hell because of the music that he played and the life that he led?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I never thought God was punishing either one of us. I just do not believe that God works that way."}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 73, "text": "Jerry Lewis and his cousin Jimmy Swaggart have always been painted as these really interesting opposites who each have part of the other within them - you know, that Jimmy Swaggart has part of the devil in him and Jerry Lewis is - Jerry Lee Lewis is also - you know, has this kind of spiritual drive in him as well and is always, like, caught between God and the devil. Where were you in the middle of all of this? Have you been doing your life like a spiritual person, a believer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Jerry was raised in a background of - a religious background - holiness, Pentecostal religion. It was very strict and very stringent about things that you could not do. And Jerry said in judgment of h"}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 74, "text": "Did you go back to school after you left your husband?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, Terry. I've always been very - I'm not an extremely religious person, but I believe I'm a very spiritual person. And I've always basically sat at the feet of both of these men and listened to the"}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 75, "text": "Do you see Jerry Lee Lewis at all anymore?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was going to school the entire time that I was living with Jerry off and on, Terry, from - the only time I could go to school was when Jerry was gone because Jerry did not like me going to school. S"}
{"id": "1135086098", "date": "2022-11-08", "guest": "Jerry Lee Lewis", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers rock 'n' roll pioneer Jerry Lee Lewis", "question_index": 76, "text": "Myra Lewis Williams, thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I saw Jerry about four or five months ago. I saw him at a party that Dennis Quaid had in Memphis, a Thanksgiving party. And when I saw him through the crowd, he saw me, and I saw him. And I started to"}
{"id": "1136012998", "date": "2022-11-11", "guest": "Robert Kotlowitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' honors veterans with interviews with 2 men who served in WWII", "question_index": 0, "text": "And what was your mission in the countryside?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was sent to the Alsatian countryside because I had been what was called an ASTP infantryman. In the summer of 1943, about 175,000 18-year-olds were drafted out of college and given basic training, p"}
{"id": "1136012998", "date": "2022-11-11", "guest": "Robert Kotlowitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' honors veterans with interviews with 2 men who served in WWII", "question_index": 1, "text": "I want you to describe what it was like for you to be fairly new in the war and living in a foxhole.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The mission in the countryside was to simply rest, bivouac, until the new 9th Army was formed, of which we were to be a corps division along with other divisions that were arriving and bivouacking exa"}
{"id": "1136012998", "date": "2022-11-11", "guest": "Robert Kotlowitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' honors veterans with interviews with 2 men who served in WWII", "question_index": 2, "text": "You describe how the Germans would taunt you through a megaphone. So what were some of the things they would say?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the first thing was that it was very scary. I mean, it was not the first time I had lived in a foxhole. Training in the States tended to be as realistic as possible. So the physical aspect of li"}
{"id": "1136012998", "date": "2022-11-11", "guest": "Robert Kotlowitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' honors veterans with interviews with 2 men who served in WWII", "question_index": 3, "text": "How were you given orders to get out of your foxholes and attack the Germans, who are about 200 feet away?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they would first tell us that Franklin Roosevelt was a chew, as they called it - C-H-E-W. And they would tell us that New York had been flattened by German bombers and Seattle wiped out by Japan"}
{"id": "1136012998", "date": "2022-11-11", "guest": "Robert Kotlowitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' honors veterans with interviews with 2 men who served in WWII", "question_index": 4, "text": "And what did you think of the orders?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you receive orders always at night. So whoever is carrying the orders, usually the squad leader, can reach each of the foxholes in which his men are occupying. And he tries to do it before dawn,"}
{"id": "1136012998", "date": "2022-11-11", "guest": "Robert Kotlowitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' honors veterans with interviews with 2 men who served in WWII", "question_index": 5, "text": "What happened in the first few seconds when you and the rest of your troop got out of your foxholes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I knew there were going to be orders like that at some point. I mean, we had been occupying foxholes, facing a kind of series of small rises in which we knew the Germans were somehow hidden in t"}
{"id": "1136012998", "date": "2022-11-11", "guest": "Robert Kotlowitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' honors veterans with interviews with 2 men who served in WWII", "question_index": 6, "text": "How many men were killed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What happened was that we formed a diamond formation. That's literally what it was, the shape of it is a diamond. It was the whole platoon. And the leader of the platoon, Francis Gallagher, moved out "}
{"id": "1136012998", "date": "2022-11-11", "guest": "Robert Kotlowitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' honors veterans with interviews with 2 men who served in WWII", "question_index": 7, "text": "You survived by playing dead for about 12 hours. The Germans were walking around with guns, picking off people who appeared to be alive but wounded. How did you play dead for that long?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I never really got the figures straight, but I would guess it is 37 or 38, maybe even as many as 40."}
{"id": "1136012998", "date": "2022-11-11", "guest": "Robert Kotlowitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' honors veterans with interviews with 2 men who served in WWII", "question_index": 8, "text": "What position did you fall in, and how uncomfortable was it to hold that position for the 12 hours?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I just want to say that they were not walking around. We never saw the Germans. They stayed in their foxholes, if that's what they were occupying. And they had formed a semicircle into which we "}
{"id": "1136012998", "date": "2022-11-11", "guest": "Robert Kotlowitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' honors veterans with interviews with 2 men who served in WWII", "question_index": 9, "text": "As you lay playing dead in the mud, you were listening to your buddies die. What did you hear?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to our Veterans Day salute and Terry's 1999 interview with Robert Kotlowitz, an infantry soldier in World War II. When Terry spoke with him, he had just published a m"}
{"id": "1136012998", "date": "2022-11-11", "guest": "Robert Kotlowitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' honors veterans with interviews with 2 men who served in WWII", "question_index": 10, "text": "How did you know when it was safe for you to get up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the sounds that I heard were the worst sounds I have ever heard. And I do feel that the sounds of war are the worst part of it. I heard young men screaming in terror and pain, calling for their "}
{"id": "1136012998", "date": "2022-11-11", "guest": "Robert Kotlowitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' honors veterans with interviews with 2 men who served in WWII", "question_index": 11, "text": "What was the first scene you saw when you picked your head up out of the mud?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, dusk had really begun to fall. It was really getting dark. And it quieted down. It really got quieted and for a - and I thought maybe the Germans had pulled back having won the day. I mean, no q"}
{"id": "1136012998", "date": "2022-11-11", "guest": "Robert Kotlowitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' honors veterans with interviews with 2 men who served in WWII", "question_index": 12, "text": "You must have had such conflicting emotions when you emerged - the exhilaration of having survived and the agony of having lost just about everyone who you trained with.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a kind of litter of bodies, most of which I knew were dead. And three upright young Americans wearing Red Cross armbands, carrying two stretchers among them."}
{"id": "1136012998", "date": "2022-11-11", "guest": "Robert Kotlowitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' honors veterans with interviews with 2 men who served in WWII", "question_index": 13, "text": "Now, you were very angry with your commander. Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was in terrible shock. Although part of me was functioning in a very clear way. I mean, I could - I saw everything that I saw, heard everything that I heard and processed it the way I normally"}
{"id": "1136012998", "date": "2022-11-11", "guest": "Robert Kotlowitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' honors veterans with interviews with 2 men who served in WWII", "question_index": 14, "text": "Where'd you see him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had the feeling that, clearly, those orders - I don't know where the orders came from. Whether they came from battalion headquarters, regiment or division, I don't know. But they had not been "}
{"id": "1136012998", "date": "2022-11-11", "guest": "Robert Kotlowitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' honors veterans with interviews with 2 men who served in WWII", "question_index": 15, "text": "After the battle, one of the people you were introduced to was an infantry historian whose job it was at that point to write up what happened in the battle that you survived. Did you get to read his history? And how did it compare to your memory of what you had lived through?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was in his company tent, talking on the phone with the company master sergeant in the tent, a major I had never seen before standing there sort of beating his thigh with a stick, his own thigh. And"}
{"id": "1136012998", "date": "2022-11-11", "guest": "Robert Kotlowitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' honors veterans with interviews with 2 men who served in WWII", "question_index": 16, "text": "Did you find other references to that battle in other history books?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, his history, as I found it, was an entry of about three lines in the 26th Infantry Division history of the war. And it was not specific in any way. In fact, you couldn't tell whether anything ha"}
{"id": "1136012998", "date": "2022-11-11", "guest": "Robert Kotlowitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' honors veterans with interviews with 2 men who served in WWII", "question_index": 17, "text": "After being one of three men of your platoon to survive this German attack and the only member of the platoon to survive unwounded, you were sent to an army psychiatrist. Did you feel you wanted or needed one at that point?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I found one in the U.S. Army - Alsace-Lorraine history, which was a line suggesting there was an action, which was even more meager. And then, I found an entry in the 4th Infantry Division of the 26th"}
{"id": "1136012998", "date": "2022-11-11", "guest": "Robert Kotlowitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' honors veterans with interviews with 2 men who served in WWII", "question_index": 18, "text": "Why was it helpful to talk to a stranger?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, I had no idea because psychiatry, or whatever the words were, were such a new concept for me at that time. I knew I wanted to talk to somebody in some serious way, to somebody who would get "}
{"id": "1136012998", "date": "2022-11-11", "guest": "Robert Kotlowitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' honors veterans with interviews with 2 men who served in WWII", "question_index": 19, "text": "Reading your book made me think a little bit of the fact that it must be, in a way, a little bit perilous to be a very introspective man in a war and in a foxhole. I think, for people who have - I guess what I'm trying to say is, I think, the more introspective you are, the more likely to be self-critical you are, the more likely you are, perhaps, to feel very vulnerable. And that's not really the way you're supposed to be feeling when you're in a war. I think it's probably better to feel kind of invincible and to feel very strong.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross. We're paying tribute to veterans today. Let's get back to Terry's 1999 interview with Robert Kotlowitz, who was a college student when he wa"}
{"id": "1136012998", "date": "2022-11-11", "guest": "Robert Kotlowitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' honors veterans with interviews with 2 men who served in WWII", "question_index": 20, "text": "Now, you're Jewish. You were fighting in the French countryside against the Germans. Your dog tags had an H for Hebrew on it. And you write in your memoir about how you'd lie in your foxhole and wonder, well, should I maybe take these dog tags off. Say I get captured by the Germans. And it says right here I'm Jewish.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yes. I think that's probably correct. And as you can imagine, many of those 175,000 ASTP students who were returned to the infantry were not unlike me. And all my real friends in the Army came f"}
{"id": "1136012998", "date": "2022-11-11", "guest": "Robert Kotlowitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' honors veterans with interviews with 2 men who served in WWII", "question_index": 21, "text": "Do you think, in that sense, that the Army made a mistake in identifying your religion on your dog tags?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It was something that, for a short period in combat, worried me. And I thought, you know, would I be - if I were captured, would I go to an ordinary, conventional PW camp? Or would I be sent to a sp"}
{"id": "1136012998", "date": "2022-11-11", "guest": "Robert Kotlowitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' honors veterans with interviews with 2 men who served in WWII", "question_index": 22, "text": "You know, when we read about war, we usually read about camaraderie. And your book has much about camaraderie. But I believe it also has feelings of alienation that are expressed in it. And I wonder if you could talk about that at all, this sense of camaraderie and alienation that you experienced during the war.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the identification was really intended for burial purposes. I mean, if you're going to be killed during the war, then the Army wanted to bury you in a way that was faithful to your faith, assumi"}
{"id": "1136012998", "date": "2022-11-11", "guest": "Robert Kotlowitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' honors veterans with interviews with 2 men who served in WWII", "question_index": 23, "text": "Well, from some of the people in your platoon.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Do you mean alienation from my friends or..."}
{"id": "1136012998", "date": "2022-11-11", "guest": "Robert Kotlowitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' honors veterans with interviews with 2 men who served in WWII", "question_index": 24, "text": "Robert Kotlowitz, I want to thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, it was my - I had very close friends, and one of whom was the wounded - one of the wounded ones in the platoon, whom I still see. But there were other guys in the platoon who were abso"}
{"id": "1136012998", "date": "2022-11-11", "guest": "Robert Kotlowitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' honors veterans with interviews with 2 men who served in WWII", "question_index": 25, "text": "There's a scene in the movie \"The Tuskegee Airmen\" where the Laurence Fishburne character is flying a plane as part of his training, but he has to make an emergency landing. And he lands in a field in Alabama where, coincidentally, a chain gang, a prison chain gang, is at work. Did that happen to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I got to Evansville, Indiana, that was the line of demarcation between sanity and insanity, better known as the Mason-Dixon Line. Once you crossed that line, there was no more integrating of the "}
{"id": "1136012998", "date": "2022-11-11", "guest": "Robert Kotlowitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' honors veterans with interviews with 2 men who served in WWII", "question_index": 26, "text": "Tell me about that and tell me about the reaction of the men in the chain gang when they saw that you, an African American, was the pilot of this Army plane.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It did."}
{"id": "1136012998", "date": "2022-11-11", "guest": "Robert Kotlowitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' honors veterans with interviews with 2 men who served in WWII", "question_index": 27, "text": "I should mention that these were African American convicts in the chain gang.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We..."}
{"id": "1136012998", "date": "2022-11-11", "guest": "Robert Kotlowitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' honors veterans with interviews with 2 men who served in WWII", "question_index": 28, "text": "The Tuskegee Airmen flew missions during the war protecting American bombers. And you never lost a bomber. Were there ever white bombers who objected to having African American escorts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's true. That's very true. We were on a navigational - our final navigational exercise. These chain gang people had probably seen white pilots many, many times land and take off from that field. B"}
{"id": "1136012998", "date": "2022-11-11", "guest": "Robert Kotlowitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' honors veterans with interviews with 2 men who served in WWII", "question_index": 29, "text": "Now, I believe you flew 50 missions...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, strenuously, initially. They succumbed to the stereotypical perception of who and what Black people were, and they refused, I guess, to accept the fact that we were professional and courageous, ju"}
{"id": "1136012998", "date": "2022-11-11", "guest": "Robert Kotlowitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' honors veterans with interviews with 2 men who served in WWII", "question_index": 30, "text": "...Shot down two German planes...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct."}
{"id": "1136012998", "date": "2022-11-11", "guest": "Robert Kotlowitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' honors veterans with interviews with 2 men who served in WWII", "question_index": 31, "text": "...And got a Distinguished Flying Cross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct."}
{"id": "1136012998", "date": "2022-11-11", "guest": "Robert Kotlowitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' honors veterans with interviews with 2 men who served in WWII", "question_index": 32, "text": "I'd like you to describe what it was like to be up in the air in one of those planes during World War II.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct."}
{"id": "1136012998", "date": "2022-11-11", "guest": "Robert Kotlowitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' honors veterans with interviews with 2 men who served in WWII", "question_index": 33, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I got to tell you, in viewing this film, I look at it today and shudder."}
{"id": "1136012998", "date": "2022-11-11", "guest": "Robert Kotlowitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' honors veterans with interviews with 2 men who served in WWII", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I said, I did that? My God, it's incredible. But at the time, you don't even think about it. You know, it's - I guess that's why the military wants young people, you..."}
{"id": "1136012998", "date": "2022-11-11", "guest": "Robert Kotlowitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' honors veterans with interviews with 2 men who served in WWII", "question_index": 35, "text": "What saved you that day?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Don't have sense enough to be frightened, you know? I remember I was telling the - our director, our marvelous director, Bob Markowitz. I said - he asked me what was the most fearful time I ever ex"}
{"id": "1136012998", "date": "2022-11-11", "guest": "Robert Kotlowitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' honors veterans with interviews with 2 men who served in WWII", "question_index": 36, "text": "You had to wear an oxygen mask in order...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you do what you're trained to do. You - the man says go, you go. And once we got a little altitude, we got past the snow and the field was clear. And we were able to land. But, you know, nobody "}
{"id": "1136012998", "date": "2022-11-11", "guest": "Robert Kotlowitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' honors veterans with interviews with 2 men who served in WWII", "question_index": 37, "text": "...To breathe at the altitude.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1136012998", "date": "2022-11-11", "guest": "Robert Kotlowitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' honors veterans with interviews with 2 men who served in WWII", "question_index": 38, "text": "You needed goggles.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1136012998", "date": "2022-11-11", "guest": "Robert Kotlowitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' honors veterans with interviews with 2 men who served in WWII", "question_index": 39, "text": "It was cold, I imagine.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1136012998", "date": "2022-11-11", "guest": "Robert Kotlowitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' honors veterans with interviews with 2 men who served in WWII", "question_index": 40, "text": "Were there times when you were in the air and had to watch as a friend of yours was shot down?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In the winter, it's beastly cold. You lose - I think it is two degrees every thousand feet. So if it's zero when you leave the ground or if it's - you know, let's say, for practical purposes, it's zer"}
{"id": "1136012998", "date": "2022-11-11", "guest": "Robert Kotlowitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' honors veterans with interviews with 2 men who served in WWII", "question_index": 41, "text": "When you got home from the war, did you feel that your accomplishments flying planes was recognized?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. I can't tell you how heartrending that is and how hopeless you are. You can't help him. You know, he's hit. And you know he's going to die. And he's - if he's a close friend, it just tears yo"}
{"id": "1136012998", "date": "2022-11-11", "guest": "Robert Kotlowitz", "title": "'Fresh Air' honors veterans with interviews with 2 men who served in WWII", "question_index": 42, "text": "I want to thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I don't. I - recognized by the Black press and the Black public. But we still did not get any credit from the white press and from the military. However, ultimately, the president, Harry Truman - "}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 0, "text": "\"Fiddler On The Roof\" is one of the most popular shows in Broadway history and has been performed around the world. It's set in 1905 in a shtetl in Eastern Europe. Shtetl is the Yiddish word for small town or village. At the time \"Fiddler\" takes place, many Jews in the Russian Empire were confined to living in the shtetls. Tevye is a dairyman who struggles to support his wife and five daughters. Three of his daughters are old enough to marry, and Tevye and his wife are expecting to follow the tradition of arranged marriages. But the daughters want to marry for love. The show is about the generational conflict between following religious and cultural traditions and adapting to a world that is rapidly changing. Some of the change confronting the family is tragic. The pogroms, Russian attacks on the Jews in the shtetls, have gotten worse, and the Russian czar has been ordering the expulsion of Jews in many villages. This revival of \"Fiddler\" is a production of the National Yiddish Theater Folksbiene, which is the longest continuously producing Yiddish theater company in the world. Yiddish used to be the primary language spoken by Jews in Central and Eastern Europe. \"Fiddler On The Roof\" is based on stories that were written in Yiddish by Sholem Aleichem. Joel Grey, Steven Skybell, welcome to FRESH AIR, and congratulations on this production. It is really, really wonderful. So, Joel, what's the backstory of the Yiddish version of \"Fiddler On The Roof\" that you're using? Who wrote it? Why did they write it?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's music from the Yiddish version of \"Fiddler On The Roof,\" which is now playing again off-Broadway. We're going to listen back to Terry's 2019 interview with Steven Skybell, who stars as Tevye, a"}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 1, "text": "And Hebrew became the language instead of Yiddish.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Shraga Friedman was an actor and director, and he translated it for himself to play in Israel after it was a big hit on Broadway. And that Yiddish version did not go very well because Israelis, they t"}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 2, "text": "Your father, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And Hebrew was the language that they adopted. And then he did it in Hebrew, and it was a success. And as far as I know, he interpolated certain Yiddishisms into Sheldon Harnick and Joe Stein's work, "}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 3, "text": "The songs aren't, like, a direct translation of the Sheldon Harnick lyrics. For example, one of the most famous songs from the show is \"If I Were A Rich Man,\" but the Yiddish version in this production that you're doing is \u201cVen Ikh Bin A Rotshild,\" which is \"If I Were A Rothschild.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not exactly classical Yiddish. I said - but something inside of me said, you have to do this. It's an affair of the heart."}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 4, "text": "And the Rothschilds were, of course, a very, very wealthy Jewish family - like, internationally famous.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 5, "text": "In France. From France, yes. So..", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In France."}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 6, "text": "...Steven, how did \"If I Were A Rich Man\" become \"If I Were A Rothschild?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 7, "text": "Now, before we hear you singing it, Steven Skybell, from the forthcoming cast recording, I want to play you a clip of my interview with Sheldon Harnick and Jerry Bock from 2004.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And a goal for any Jew would - to be a Rothschild - it just puts Tevye in a context that to me is very deep. It's a subtle change, and it's a delightful change. And, you know, thankfully Sheldon"}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 8, "text": "And I was asking Harnick about, in the song, the kind of chanting part, the daidle-deedle (ph) part?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ooh."}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 9, "text": "I was asking him about that and who came up with that, whether he wrote those lyrics, wrote those phonetically down or whether that was a Zero Mostel thing. So we're going to hear a little bit of Zero Mostel, and then we're going to hear that - what Sheldon Harnick had to say.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 10, "text": "So this is from 2004.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 11, "text": "Sheldon Harnick, the yidle-deedle-digga-digga-do (ph) part", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Tevye, singing) If I were a rich man - ya-ha-deedle-deedle-deedle-beeble-beeble-bubble-bum (ph)."}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 12, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Tevye, singing) If I were a rich man - ya-ha-deedle-deedle-deedle-beeble-beeble-bubble-bum (ph)."}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 13, "text": "...Did you actually write out the syllables that you wanted Zero Mostel to sing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 14, "text": "OK. So that was Sheldon Harnick and Jerry Bock in 2004. Steven Skybell, when you sing this song...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Authentic. Yeah."}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 15, "text": "What's your approach to doing that chanting part?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's exactly that. I mean, I never have heard that. But that is always what I heard, was a sort of, you know, davening. The only thing I'll add to that - and I stole this from Katrina Lenk, who "}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 17, "text": "All right. So let's hear Steven Skybell singing \"Ven Ikh Bin A Rotshild,\" \"If I Were A Rich Man.\" This is sung in Yiddish from the Yiddish production that's now underway in New York of \"Fiddler On The Roof.\" Here we go.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Makes him kind of go off text in a way with laughter as well as this sort of davening. So that is also something that I like to explore with it, is that because I'm - he's expressing himself with w"}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 18, "text": "That's Steven Skybell from the past recording of the Yiddish production of \"Fiddler On The Roof,\" which is currently playing in New York. Also with us is Joel Grey, who directed this production. So, Steven, that sounded great. And, you know, one of the things I love about your singing in this is that even though I understand some of the words that you're singing 'cause my grandparents spoke Yiddish - but I don't - you know, I don't understand the meaning of a lot of them. But I love your pronunciation of all the words. Like, you just - you pronounce everything so clearly. It just has a beauty in and of itself.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing in Yiddish)."}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 19, "text": "And I think that's something that great people in theater can do, is to just really wrap their tongue around all the syllables whether they're singing or talking.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you."}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 20, "text": "Well, well done. If you're just joining us, my guests are Joel Grey, who directed the Yiddish production of Fiddler On The Roof that's now playing in New York, and Steven Skybell, who stars in it as Tevye. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, I mean, I will say two things about that. One is that our coaches at the Folksbiene were intent that even if people didn't understand the Yiddish, they should certainly be able to apprehen"}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, we're talking about the Yiddish production of \"Fiddler On The Roof\" that's currently playing in New York. And with me is Joel Grey, who directed this production. And Joel Grey is most famous for starring in the original Broadway and movie productions of \"Cabaret.\" And Steven Skybell is with us, too. He stars as Tevye in the Yiddish production of \"Fiddler On The Roof.\" Joel Grey, when you took on this job of directing the Yiddish production of \"Fiddler On The Roof,\" how did you want to interpret it differently than you'd previously seen it interpreted?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, I mean, I will say two things about that. One is that our coaches at the Folksbiene were intent that even if people didn't understand the Yiddish, they should certainly be able to apprehen"}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 22, "text": "So, Joel, what did you see and hear in Steven Skybell that led you to cast him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a script that had no real form except for these scenes which were there in Yiddish, and the songs were there in Yiddish. But there was no direction. There were no - they go into, and they - the"}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 23, "text": "Since Zero Mostel originated the role on stage, a lot of people just always assume that Tevye has to be somebody who's big - like, physically big, like, stocky.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the thing of it was that you knew in that moment that he came in and sang \"If I Were A Rich Man\" in Yiddish that there was no one else to be considered - done, done, done. And from there on, he "}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 24, "text": "But he was a big man, and there was a lot of shtick - can I say? - in his performance.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Yep. Yeah."}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 25, "text": "Give me an example.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I will - I mean, I never have really considered myself a comedian-comedian. I know how - I have humor. And I never really saw the role of Tevye as a buffoon, you know, and so it's not that I int"}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 26, "text": "Who's been imprisoned there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "An example for that is, you know, I think maybe the Zero Mostel reaction when his daughter is - says, we're going - I'm going to Siberia to join my revolutionary husband and..."}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 27, "text": "My guests are Joel Gray, who directed the off-Broadway production of the Yiddish \"Fiddler On The Roof,\" and Steven Skybell, who stars as Tevye. We'll talk more after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Who's been imprisoned there. And I do even think on the original cast album, Mostel is sort of just geschreis Siberia, Siberia. Like the - he can't imagine it. And Joel - I mean, and I'm an actor who'"}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 28, "text": "UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character, singing in Yiddish). UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character, singing in Yiddish). UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character, laughing). UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character, singing in Yiddish). UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character, singing in Yiddish). UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1 AND UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As characters, singing in Yiddish).", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Who's been imprisoned there. And I do even think on the original cast album, Mostel is sort of just geschreis Siberia, Siberia. Like the - he can't imagine it. And Joel - I mean, and I'm an actor who'"}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're talking about the current off-Broadway production of \"Fiddler On The Roof,\" performed in Yiddish with English and Russian subtitles. My guests are Joel Grey, who directed the show, and Steven Skybell, who stars as Tevye. The original Broadway production of \"Fiddler On The Roof\" opened in 1964. The music was written by Sheldon Harnick and Jerry Bock, with a book by Joseph Stein. Well, I want to hear another song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Who's been imprisoned there. And I do even think on the original cast album, Mostel is sort of just geschreis Siberia, Siberia. Like the - he can't imagine it. And Joel - I mean, and I'm an actor who'"}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 30, "text": "And again, this is going to be from the forthcoming cast recording of the Yiddish production of \"Fiddler On The Roof.\" And we're going to hear you, Steven Skybell, again, singing one of the famous songs from the show, \"Lekhayim.\" And I know when I interviewed Sheldon Harnick of writing the lyrics for this show, he said, you know, the characters in this would have been speaking Yiddish 'cause that's the language that Sholem Aleichem wrote in. But there's only two Yiddish words in the lyrics that Sheldon Harnick wrote. One is mazel tov, as in a blessing on your head, mazel tov, mazel tov. And mazel tov means congratulations. And the other is l'chaim, which is one of the most - titles of one of the most famous songs in the show, which means to life, as the lyric tells you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 31, "text": "To life, to life, l'chaim. So before we hear this, do you want to say anything about doing the song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 32, "text": "So let's hear Steven Skybell from the cast recording of the Yiddish \"Fiddler On The Roof\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, just that it is a - it's a moment of pure joy in this story, which sometimes has darker corners. And that's an aspect of it that I really relish every night, is that it is - it's alcohol"}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 33, "text": "So Steven Skybell and Bruce Sabath, who plays Leyzer Volf from the forthcoming Yiddish version of \"Fiddler On The Roof\" - any lyric changes you want to point out to us in the translation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As company) Hey."}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 34, "text": "I'm glad you mentioned the ch because I think some people have trouble saying ch. And you can't speak Yiddish without a lot of ch in it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nobody wants that."}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 35, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's correct."}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 36, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no, but they were - they - I will say, when I studied with - and her name is Khane-Faygl Turtletaub."}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 37, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And she's the Northwestern Yiddish teacher who - I went to her home. She was like, ch, ch, ch. That..."}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 38, "text": "So, Joel Grey, when you were during the auditions, did you have to make sure that the people auditioning could do a good chuh?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It actually is an identifying aspect of what Yiddish is, and you don't want to be afraid of it. And even when they were coaching us for \"Fiddler,\" they just said, more of that, more of that, because i"}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 39, "text": "All right. So the story of \"Fiddler On The Roof\" really resonates today because it's a story about having to flee and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know a ch when I hear it."}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 40, "text": "...Going to other places because different characters - some characters go to America. One's setting off for Israel. Another's going, I think, to Warsaw. And no one really knows what they're in store for. We know some of them are likely to die in the Holocaust. Of course, they don't know that. And now, when immigration is such a contentious issue in the U.S. and when so many people from different countries are trying to come here, fleeing from death threats and gangs and hunger, violence, starvation, you know, any number of reasons trying to come here...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 41, "text": "So it has some, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not exactly different from what it was then..."}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 42, "text": "It has so much resonance now. And it's not - you know, it's a story about Jewish people, but so many Americans who are immigrants come from their version of that story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...In terms of running away."}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 43, "text": "Joel Grey, to you, what this story means to you now living in America in 2019.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know if you're aware, but just recently, we had World Refugee Day. And we actually - the entire theater was filled not with paying audience, but with people who identify themselves as refugees"}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 44, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guests are Joel Grey, who directed the current Yiddish production of \"Fiddler On The Roof,\" and Steven Skybell, who stars in it as Tevye. We'll be back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Seeing the show and feeling the character's loss and the sadness and pluck and spirit every night - and then, I come home. And I turn on the television, and I see these migrants and these kids in cage"}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 45, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, we're talking about the ongoing Yiddish production of \"Fiddler On The Roof\" in New York. My guests are Joel Grey, who directed it. He also, as you know, is most famous for starring in the original Broadway production and the movie of \"Cabaret.\" And also with us is Steven Skybell, who stars in this production as Tevye. I'd like to hear a little bit about your families' stories, to the extent that you know it, of how and when they came to the United States.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Seeing the show and feeling the character's loss and the sadness and pluck and spirit every night - and then, I come home. And I turn on the television, and I see these migrants and these kids in cage"}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 46, "text": "And then, your father, Mickey Katz, he spoke Yiddish and English, and he was a performer. He sang with Spike Jones' band. And then, he started his own band and sang song parodies that were part English, part Yiddish. And you sang with him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She said there was a big snow. That's how she remembered. And she came by herself on a boat. And you think, how hard was that and how scary? And then, they found each other in - she came to be with he"}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 47, "text": "That was the theme for the \"Davy Crockett\" TV show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Born in the wilds of Delancey Street, home of gefilte fish and kosher meat. Handy with a knife, oh, (singing in Yiddish). He flicked him a chicken, and he was only three. Duvid, Duvid Crocke"}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 48, "text": "But he did the Yiddish parody version.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 49, "text": "So, Steven, what do you know about how your family came to the U.S.? And where did they come from?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 50, "text": "Into the czarist army (ph).", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yes. My father's father came from a small town in northeast Poland called Suwalki. And it was before the First World War. It was - they - all of his brothers came over one at a time to avoid con"}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 51, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. And so my grandfather came over when he was 16. And again, it's like, can you - I cannot even imagine getting on a boat when you're 16 and going - you know, maybe he thought it was a bit"}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 52, "text": "One of the most famous songs from \"Fiddler On The Roof\" is \"Sunrise, Sunset,\" which is a song that has been sung at countless Jewish weddings for generations. And I told Sheldon Harnick this, I really so strongly disliked the song", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And my grandfather did. And thankfully, he did because that's why I'm here. My mother's side of the family was a little more city-dwelling from Warsaw, Poland. And so they came to Chicago. And I don't"}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 53, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And my grandfather did. And thankfully, he did because that's why I'm here. My mother's side of the family was a little more city-dwelling from Warsaw, Poland. And so they came to Chicago. And I don't"}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 54, "text": "...For so many years because my parents were among the parents who played the cast album over and over and over. And there were songs that just sounded so, like, schmaltzy to me. And then, when I started to really understand more about music and about lyric writing and about Bock and Harnick, the composers of the score, and how great and varied their shows were...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 55, "text": "Yeah. And, yeah, and meaningful, I realized, like, what a beautiful song that is. And there's, like, jazz versions of the song, you know, like, instrumental jazz versions.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Deep."}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 56, "text": "So I want to play the Yiddish version from the show. And again, Steven, I'm going to ask you for what you thought about when you were recording this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 57, "text": "And so much about loss.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, the thing that's interesting to me is that it's about the wedding, Tzeitel's wedding. But they chose to let it be voiced through the parents - mostly the parents' point of view, which is"}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 58, "text": "Steven, I'm going to ask you to sing a few of the lines in English for people who don't know the English version of the song, and then we'll hear you in Yiddish.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 59, "text": "Beautiful. Let's hear the Yiddish version. And the actress who plays your wife in it is singing with you, and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Is this the little girl I carried? Is this the little boy at play? I don't remember growing older. When did they?"}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 60, "text": "Yeah. So here we go.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Jennifer Babiak."}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 61, "text": "That was beautiful. Joel Grey, did you give any direction for how you wanted that song to be sung?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing in Yiddish)."}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 62, "text": "Steven, has doing the show affected your feelings about your own family history or your interest in your own family history?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes, I wanted it to be spoken, but musically. I wanted it to be about the text, about what they're thinking, what they're feeling in this moment of great joy and yet deep loss."}
{"id": "1137644493", "date": "2022-11-18", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Yiddish 'Fiddler On The Roof' is a dream come true for its lead actor", "question_index": 63, "text": "Thank you both so much. And congratulations on the show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I always have had an interest in my family's history. It's certainly - I feel I draw upon my family's - and their history so strongly in portraying Tevye. And I have, in my dressing room, pictures of "}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Mel Brooks, wrote and directed such hilarious film comedies as \"Blazing Saddles,\" a spoof of Westerns; \"High Anxiety,\" his comic homage to Alfred Hitchcock; \"Young Frankenstein,\" his version of a classic horror film; and \"History Of The World, Part I,\" his sendup of Hollywood spectacles. His film \"The Producers\" was adapted into a Broadway musical mega-hit that won a record-breaking 12 Tonys, including best musical. His latest project is his new memoir, \"All About Me!\" Brooks is one of the few EGOTs, meaning he's received an Emmy, Grammy, Oscar and Tony. To top it off, he was a Kennedy Center honoree, received a lifetime achievement award from the American Film Institute and a National Medal of Arts, presented by President Obama. I love his work, and I love talking to him, and I'm grateful his memoir provided another opportunity to have him on our show. We recorded the interview last week, and one of the things we talked about is what his life is like now at age 95. Let's start with his most hilarious and intentionally tasteless song, \"Springtime For Hitler.\" It's from \"The Producers,\" which is about two theater producers who figure out a scheme to make more money from a flop than they could make from a hit. They stage a musical called \"Springtime For Hitler,\" which is in such bad taste it's bound to be the flop their scheme requires. The title song is a big production number featuring singing and dancing Nazis. Here's the version from the 1967 film.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 1, "text": "Mel Brooks, welcome back to FRESH AIR. It is such a great pleasure to have you back. And congratulations on the new memoir.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As characters, singing) We're marching to a faster pace. Look out. Here comes the master race. Springtime for Hitler and Germany."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 2, "text": "In writing this book, what was the process of reviewing your life like for you emotionally - going back through the ups and downs of your life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you. Thank you."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 3, "text": "What made you cry?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was a little crazy. Sometimes I'd be remembering a childhood episode, and suddenly I'd find myself crying. And I said, I mean, that's not like me. But you never know what's going to, you know"}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 4, "text": "Well, you very casually mentioned getting run over by a car. You were roller-skating and in the street, and a car that you didn't see just kind of - one tire ran over your stomach.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it was a happy moment, and I don't know why I cried. It was getting a box of chocolates after being run over by a car, a box of chocolates in the hospital. And I said - I remember saying"}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 5, "text": "And I'm reading that thinking, oh, my God, like, that could have killed you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 6, "text": "Well, how - you know, how afraid were you? I mean, what a terrifying thing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, absolutely. It knocked the wind out of my sails - I'll tell you that."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 7, "text": "So your father died when you were 2 of tuberculosis, and it wasn't until you were 6 that you realized other kids had fathers and you didn't. And you write, it was a brushstroke of depression that never left me. A lot of comics have dealt with depression. Has depression been something that you've dealt with over the years, beneath all the comedy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "on my stomach and then bouncing back again. And I remember saying, woof (ph) - you know, just a lot of air leaving me."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 8, "text": "Getting run over by a car.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not so much. Not so much. When I'm asked what was the happiest time of your life - was it marrying Anne Bancroft? Was it winning the Academy Award? Was it writing your first sketch for Broadway for \"N"}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 9, "text": "I was going to ask you that. Yeah. What happened at 9? Yeah", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Getting run over by a car, playing with my gang, you know, in the streets and just being free and careless and reckless and just a happy, happy child. So there was a lot more happiness than there was "}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Getting run over by a car, playing with my gang, you know, in the streets and just being free and careless and reckless and just a happy, happy child. So there was a lot more happiness than there was "}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 11, "text": "Oh, right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I would usually say, homework."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 12, "text": "You wrote that most of the kids in your neighborhood - and it was a largely Jewish neighborhood - grew up to work in the garment district in Manhattan, moving racks of clothes. My father worked in the garment district. What made you think you could carve out a different life, one in show business?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And homework - and I realized, they want something back. They don't let you get away with it. You can't leave school and then run in the streets and be reckless and wild and happy. They want something"}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 13, "text": "After you got out of the service, eventually, you got to write a couple of the first really big TV shows in TV history in the early days. And these were the Sid Caesar shows. It was \"Your Show Of Shows,\" and before that - what's it called? - the \"Admiral Variety Hour.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it happened one fateful night when my Uncle Joe took me to see my first Broadway musical. And it was a Cole Porter, a wonderful show called \"Anything Goes,\" starring Ethel Merman. And he knew th"}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 14, "text": "In spite of you being a writer on an incredibly successful show, you started getting anxiety attacks, like, bad anxiety attacks. And so, like, your showbiz dream is coming true, but there's so much pressure doing this weekly show that you're getting these anxiety attacks. How did you get through that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Admiral - very good, good for you."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 15, "text": "So let's talk a little bit about your songwriting process because I love the song satires in your movie, including the song \"High Anxiety\" from \"High Anxiety\" and, you know, \"Springtime For Hitler\" from \"The Producers\" and \"The Inquisition (What A Show)\" from \"History Of The World, Part I\" and \"Jews In Space.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was early on in the show. There was only Lucille, Mel Tolkin and myself writing all the comedy for an hour-and-a-half variety show that went on once a week. It was truly an impossible task. I"}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 16, "text": "So tell me something about your songwriting process. Like, when you would sit down to write a lyric, the lyrics were often, like, the parody of a genre, and it might be the parody of a film genre or of a song genre. So, like, would you, like, listen to a lot of songs of the period you were satirizing or, you know, read, like, books of that period to get, like, the language in your mind? Like, what would you do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 17, "text": "I love that song, and I've adopted hope for the best, expect the worst as my motto.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I get the words first, or at least the first - I remember in - when I was doing - it was 12 - \"The Twelve Chairs,\" I wanted a title song that would say who these people are. They're - you know"}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 18, "text": "We'll hear more of my interview with Mel Brooks after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wrote a brilliant - I got to give - pat myself on the back. I wrote a brilliant release, my own tune also, the middle - the release - interlude between the choruses. (Singing) I met a man who made a"}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Mel Brooks. His new memoir is called \"All About Me!\" Let's hear another of his songs. This is from \"High Anxiety,\" which he wrote and directed. He starred as a psychiatrist who's afraid of heights. In one scene, the psychiatrist performs a song called \"High Anxiety\". Mel Brooks wrote the lyrics. This performance is his homage to Sinatra.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wrote a brilliant - I got to give - pat myself on the back. I wrote a brilliant release, my own tune also, the middle - the release - interlude between the choruses. (Singing) I met a man who made a"}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 20, "text": "I want to quote something from the book. You write, (reading) even though it seems foolish and silly and crazy, comedy has the most to say about the human condition because if you laugh, you can get by. You can survive when things are bad if you have a sense of humor. I want to talk with you a little bit about being 95, which is what you are now. Are there things about aging that you can laugh at, that laughter is helpful at and things that you can't laugh about, about being 95?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Dr. Richard Harpo Thorndyke, singing) High anxiety whenever you're near. High anxiety, it's you that I fear. My heart's afraid to fly. It's crashed before. But then you take my hand. My heart star"}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 21, "text": "Oh, well, thank you", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, well, that's a good question. I don't have a ready answer for that, but I - it's true that, you know, I'm so grateful to be able to eat scrambled eggs and toast and - for breakfast and sometimes"}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 22, "text": ". Thank you very much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, well, that's a good question. I don't have a ready answer for that, but I - it's true that, you know, I'm so grateful to be able to eat scrambled eggs and toast and - for breakfast and sometimes"}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 23, "text": "I want to get back to sleeping. When you're having trouble sleeping, what do you do? Do you read a book? Do you pace? Do you lie there hoping eventually you'll fall asleep?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I always listen to FRESH AIR when it's not even me. That's how much I love you."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 24, "text": "I love Turner.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I try to - you know? And unfortunately, Ben Mankiewicz ruins me because he plays so many - late at night, so many wonderful movies."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well, you used to have dinner with Carl Reiner every night, right? And so you must miss him a lot.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, and I do get Turner Classic Movies. And he does such a great job. He's part of my Friday - I have a Friday luncheon club. I've been away from it now because I'm afraid of the - you know, the aut"}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 26, "text": "My guest is Mel Brooks. His new memoir is called \"All About Me!\" We'll hear more of the interview after a break. Here's a song from his film, \"The History Of The World, Part I,\" in a scene about the Spanish Inquisition in the late 1400s, when those who didn't embrace Christianity, such as Jews, were interrogated and tortured. The infamous grand inquisitor Torquemada, played by Mel Brooks, sings the lead in a big song and dance number. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I miss him so much, every single night. And Carl was, you know - Carl was remarkable. He was a remarkable person."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 27, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded last year with Mel Brooks after the publication of his memoir, \"All About Me!\" It's now out in paperback.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Torquemada, singing) Don't be boring. Say..."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 28, "text": "Being Jewish has always been part of your humor and kind of most dramatically in \"The Producers\" and production numbers like \"Springtime For Hitler.\" You grew up pretty secular. Your grandmother was observant, but your mother, not so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Torquemada, singing) Don't be boring. Say..."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 29, "text": "Oh, the non-kosher ham. Yeah", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Right. We used to hide the ham from my grandmother. Thank God the tenements..."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 30, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Right. We used to hide the ham from my grandmother. Thank God the tenements..."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 31, "text": "So what does it mean to be Jewish now for you at age 95? Have you become any more or less observant? And do you - is, like, religion something you want at this point in your life, or are you remaining as secular as you've always been? Is there any kind of difference to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Right, right."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 32, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Being afraid I'm going to die has not made me more religious. I'm still - I'm tribal. I love being a Jew, and I love Jewish humor, and I loved the - I don't know, the je ne sais quoi that the Jews"}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 33, "text": "Like grape juice with alcohol in it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When Gene Wilder introduced me to Nuits-Saint-Georges one night at dinner at his house, I said, what is this? I said, is this wine 'cause I thought wine was just this tepid, kind of sweet..."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 34, "text": "The culture...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah. That was Manischewitz. He said, no, this is a burgundy. It's from, you know, France. I said, wow. But Gene saved my life - no more Manischewitz. But actually, it has to do with - it really"}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 35, "text": "...The ceremonies, the jokes", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The dinners. Yeah."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 36, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The dinners. Yeah."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 37, "text": "The jokes, the jokes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, the jokes, exactly."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 38, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The youngest of my male uncles was Uncle Lee. They were all Kaminskys, Lee Kaminsky. And Lee sat down near the children's table when we had Passover dinner. He was the youngest, so he sat down close t"}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 39, "text": "What kind of reviews did you get from rabbis about your Jewish humor in - especially your more sacrilegious", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he would just do a ballgame for us, and we would just be hysterical."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 40, "text": "Jewish humor in movies?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he would just do a ballgame for us, and we would just be hysterical."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 41, "text": "This is something kind of off-topic, but you've done some wild things, like, during your years, like pranking people in the studio when you were getting your start and, you know, a crazy outburst sometimes. So when you got, from President Obama - when you got your medal in the arts...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Boy, boy. When I did \"The Producers,\" I got a thousand letters, mostly from rabbis and Jewish organizations. How dare you? It's the Holocaust, you know? And they were right, and they were wrong. And I"}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 42, "text": "Yeah. Well, we were both there at the ceremony because you got a medal in the arts, and I got a medal in the humanities from Obama. And you were - as I recall, we were in, like, the - I forget which room it was, but it's the room where some ceremonies were. And the ceremony was being held there. And we were all seated, you know, waiting for Obama to come out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wait a minute. When you got your medal..."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 43, "text": "When Obama gave you the medal and put it around your neck, you kind of like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I called it the yellow room because it was painted yellow. And I'd been there before. Here I am back in the yellow room. Yeah, right."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 44, "text": "...Drooped forward as if, like, this medal is so heavy I can't even bear the weight around my neck. Did you plan to do - was that spontaneous? Or did you think, like, I know what I'm going to do. When he gives me the medal, I'm just going to act like it's too heavy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was heavy."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 45, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a good question. The truth is I didn't know what I would do. I wanted to do something. But as soon as I felt the weight, I knew I was right in dropping, falling and grabbing him for - nearly to"}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 46, "text": "I will say, you got a Kennedy Center honor from Obama, but you were offered one from President George W. Bush, and you declined because of the war in Iraq. How public did you want to be about that? How much of a public statement did you want to make about that? And how much did you just want to quietly decline?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Pulling him down with me. So it worked."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 47, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wanted to quietly decline. I didn't want to make a big deal of it. And I just didn't - I thought that pursuing that war in Iraq, I thought, was all wrong. I'd been a soldier myself. And I said, why "}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 48, "text": "Are there any jokes that you wish you could take back?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it was very sweet. Yeah. Right."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 49, "text": "Can you give us an example?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not - I can't - not really. I would - not one would I take it back. As a matter of fact, I'm pretty upset about some jokes that I took back, that I didn't let go, that I thought, well, that's a li"}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 50, "text": "Oh, too dirty.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can't. I could give you one, but it was just too dirty."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 51, "text": "I got to hear it. Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Now you got to hear it, right?"}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 52, "text": "And this is your spoof of Westerns?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it had to do with Madeline Kahn going into Cleavon Little's dressing room after the show during \"Blazing Saddles.\" And..."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 53, "text": "So you took the arm part out of the movie?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it was a big - it would've been, you know - today, I think, I could've gotten away with it, but never then. Yeah."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 54, "text": "That is so funny. You hired Richard Pryor to be a writer on that film?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I took - I kept them in the dark. But I never did that joke."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 55, "text": "Did you remain friends after the movie?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. I mean, Richard Pryor was so good. And I expected him to play Black Bart, the Black sheriff. And then when Warner Brothers said, no, under no circumstances. We can't get any insurance on R"}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 56, "text": "My guest is Mel Brooks. He has a new memoir called \"All About Me!\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. We sure did, you know? And then he became ill. And it was very sad, losing such an incredible, truly incredible talent. I mean, he was the best stand-up comic that ever lived. That's saying a lot"}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 57, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Mel Brooks. His new memoir is called \"All About Me!\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. We sure did, you know? And then he became ill. And it was very sad, losing such an incredible, truly incredible talent. I mean, he was the best stand-up comic that ever lived. That's saying a lot"}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 58, "text": "So you were married to Anne Bancroft for many years until her death in 2005. Some people thought of you as opposites because she was, you know, like, a serious actress, and you were, like, a comic actor and writer. And, you know, so I'm just wondering - there were probably sides of both of you that the public didn't know about, like the more serious Mel Brooks and the more humorous...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. We sure did, you know? And then he became ill. And it was very sad, losing such an incredible, truly incredible talent. I mean, he was the best stand-up comic that ever lived. That's saying a lot"}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 59, "text": "...Anne Bancroft.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 60, "text": "So I have one last question for you. You're 95 now. You've lived a long time. What is the meaning of life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There you go. There you go. There was that whole other side of me that was maybe slightly, you know, well-read, intellectual, emotional and wasn't funny and was serious about life. And there was that "}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 61, "text": "You're 95. You've got to know. How else are we going to know if you don't know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I haven't figured it out yet."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 62, "text": "Yeah", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a very good question. And maybe in my second book."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 63, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a very good question. And maybe in my second book."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 64, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, history..."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 65, "text": "Volume 2.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. The sequel, you know?"}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 66, "text": "You like being funny, and you like hearing people be funny?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Volume 2, you know? The history of Mel Brooks, Part 2, you know? Maybe I'll figure it out. But so far, I haven't. But I don't want to get, you know, too close. In case the answers are negative, I don'"}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 67, "text": "Oh. Take my wife, please. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I love people being funny, even Henny Youngman."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 68, "text": "King of the one-liners", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Right."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 69, "text": "Those jokes were so sexist.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Even the bad jokes. But once in a while, there'd be a standard Borscht Belt comic that - like Myron Cohen. And there'd be a joke there. I said, my God, that's a good joke, 'cause usually they were jus"}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 70, "text": "Yeah, he did a lot of Yiddish humor, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Those were the jokes. And finally - but Myron Cohen thrilled me with some of his comedy. He said he went into a - he said, I went to a grocery store, and I said, I want - give me a quarter of a pound "}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 71, "text": "Did you get the punchlines? Did you know enough Yiddish to get the jokes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. He was wonderful."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 72, "text": "Whatever, yeah", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I never knew. You know, it always - for me, it always - (speaking gibberish). Whatever. I never..."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 73, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I never knew. You know, it always - for me, it always - (speaking gibberish). Whatever. I never..."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 74, "text": "And for people who don't know the difference, like, you're just making up syllables that sound vaguely like Hebrew or Yiddish - yeah", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I never knew what the punchline was - (speaking gibberish). It sounded good. It was a nice rimshot, but I didn't know what the hell they were talking about."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 75, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I never knew what the punchline was - (speaking gibberish). It sounded good. It was a nice rimshot, but I didn't know what the hell they were talking about."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 76, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah. I'm just mimicking."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 77, "text": "It's always good to talk with you. You've been so generous with your time. Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to talk with you. And thank you for writing your memoir.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mimicking, yeah. Anyway, it's always good to talk to you."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 78, "text": "And please send my regards to your son Max.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, please. It was a pleasure."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 79, "text": "I like the way you say, believe it or not, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I will. I will. I intend to. And I intend to, you know, make a copy of this thing and memorialize it and, you know, send it to Max and everybody, send it to my pals and - you know? But a lot of people"}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 80, "text": "...It's really hard to understand, but - it's incomprehensible, but", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I know, right? Yeah."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 81, "text": "people listen to your show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I know, right? Yeah."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 82, "text": "Well, I love your humor. So it's", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, you're one of the few I could do that with without hurting feelings 'cause you understand humor, and you understand comedy and its rhythms and how it works. You know. You understand it. You'"}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 83, "text": "- you've made me laugh so many times over the years, and I'm so grateful to you for that. So it's been a pleasure talking with you, and I wish you all good things.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, you're one of the few I could do that with without hurting feelings 'cause you understand humor, and you understand comedy and its rhythms and how it works. You know. You understand it. You'"}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 84, "text": "My interview with Mel Brooks was recorded last year after the publication of his memoir \"All About Me!\" It's now out in paperback. Let's hear one more song. Mel Brooks co-starred with his late wife Anne Bancroft in the 1983 remake of the film \"To Be Or Not To Be,\" set during World War II in Poland. They got to sing this duet of \"Sweet Georgia Brown\" in Polish.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, bless you. Thank you so much. Terry Gross, I love you. Thanks."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 85, "text": "MEL", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, bless you. Thank you so much. Terry Gross, I love you. Thanks."}
{"id": "1138598270", "date": "2022-11-23", "guest": "Unidentified Actors", "title": "Mel Brooks says his only regret as a comedian is the jokes he didn't tell", "question_index": 86, "text": "Mel Brooks and Anne Bancroft from the film \"To Be Or Not To Be.\" After we take a short break, TV critic David Bianculli will review \"The Addams Family\" spinoff series on Netflix. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing in Polish)."}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Happy Thanksgiving. We hope you're enjoying the holiday. Saturday marks the 100th anniversary of the birth of Charles Schulz, the creator of one of the most beloved and famous comic strips, \"Peanuts.\" It was in the 1950s that a depressed, insecure kid named Charlie Brown took his place on the newspaper comics pages. Even if you didn't grow up with the \"Peanuts\" comic strip, you may recognize this.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 1, "text": "That's from \"A Charlie Brown Christmas,\" which was first broadcast in 1965 and has since become an annual TV tradition. The soundtrack from the special is one of the best-selling jazz albums of all time. Charles Schulz died in 2000, one day before his final strip was published. I spoke with him in 1990 on the 40th anniversary of \"Peanuts.\" He was in his studio in Santa Rosa, California.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Linus Van Pelt) Charlie Brown, you're the only person I know who can take a wonderful season like Christmas and turn it into a problem. Maybe Lucy's right. Of all the Charlie Browns in the world, "}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 2, "text": "There's a \"Peanuts\" from - I forget the year, but it's in the 1950s, where I think it's Linus shows Charlie Brown a scar. And he asks Charlie Brown if he has any scars. And Charlie Brown says, oh, I have lots of them, but they're all mental.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Linus Van Pelt) Charlie Brown, you're the only person I know who can take a wonderful season like Christmas and turn it into a problem. Maybe Lucy's right. Of all the Charlie Browns in the world, "}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 3, "text": "And I think in a way that kind of sums up Charlie Brown's view of life, you know - the mental scars.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 4, "text": "Did you find any reluctance in newspapers at the time to take on a subject like depression or mental scars, you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 5, "text": "Well, the closest you've come to swearing in a comic is probably good grief.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I don't recall anybody ever complaining about that. What editors were afraid of in those days, much more than now, was the mention of personalities and things. There used to be a very wonderful la"}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 6, "text": "How did you start using good grief, which has really become a, you know, popular part of the vocabulary?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have discovered in my life that good grief and rats will cover almost anything that ever happens to you."}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 7, "text": "Do you think of the characters in \"Peanuts\" as each representing a different side of your own character?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was just a natural thing that I always said. If I was playing golf, and I missed a three-foot putt, I might say, oh, good grief, you know. But I've never been one who swore. I've never liked ugly w"}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 8, "text": "What part of yourself is Charlie Brown about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think there's no doubt about it. I doubt it that - I doubt that it would be possible to do something every day with a group of characters such as I have, without each one of those characters being a"}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 9, "text": "Do you get depressed like Charlie Brown?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not as much as people like to think. It just makes a good story, of course. I have not been the loser that Charlie Brown has, although I can remember certainly losses in both baseball and golf and hoc"}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 10, "text": "About what? Do you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. There's no doubt about it. I've been depressed the last few days. I never quite know why."}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 11, "text": "Well, you know, when when a child is depressed, like - or anxious like Charlie Brown often is, I think that adults sometimes don't understand it and think, you know, that childhood should be a time when kids are more carefree.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For one thing, we are in the midst of doing a wonderful ice show here at my ice arena. And there's something about seeing all the beautiful, bright young people out there performing. And I listen to t"}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 12, "text": "I was wondering if you were exposed to a lot of that when you were young - of adults maybe not understanding your moods and your interior self.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 13, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know about the moods, but I think the word anxiety is much more appropriate than depression."}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I am a very anxious person. Now, my childhood was a good childhood, but there were episodes in our neighborhood where there were some cruel children, a couple of boys. And there's one of them "}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 15, "text": "Now, let's get to Lucy. Lucy has a...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They caused me much unhappiness. And I think this is something that adults tend to forget. It's very difficult out there in the playground to survive. It's a struggle out there. And as we grow older, "}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 16, "text": "Lucy has a psychiatry booth.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 17, "text": "Were you ever in therapy or do you have any faith in therapy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 18, "text": "Oh, yeah, sure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know enough about it to say I have faith or not. I went through a few sessions over this anxiety business, but the psychiatric booth is really a take-off, a parody of the old lemonade stands t"}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 19, "text": "How did you come up with Linus' security blanket?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. When I was growing up, every comic strip character at some time or another ran a little lemonade stand. And so I was thinking about that one day, and I thought, well, nowadays it'd be much more "}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 20, "text": "Now, your father and Charlie Brown's father were both barbers. Now, Charlie Brown has no hair. He has that one little lock that comes out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would say out of the five children that we had, three of them had blankets. And two of them carried the blankets around until they literally crumbled and disappeared. Little by little, chunks would "}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 21, "text": "Oh, OK. I was wondering if your father always gave you too close of a shave when he cut your hair.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah, I don't think of it as not having hair. I think of it as being hair that is so blond that it just doesn't - it's not seen very clearly. That's all."}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 22, "text": "Oh, yeah. We're listening to my 1990 interview with Charles Schulz, the creator of the comic strip \"Peanuts.\" Saturday marks the centennial of his birth. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. But he always gave me haircuts. And when I went to school, I was always looking very nice. My hair was neatly combed. But the embarrassing thing about that was when I used to go into the shop, and"}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 1990 interview with Charles Schulz, the creator of the beloved comic strip, \"Peanuts.\" Saturday is the centennial of his birth.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. But he always gave me haircuts. And when I went to school, I was always looking very nice. My hair was neatly combed. But the embarrassing thing about that was when I used to go into the shop, and"}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 24, "text": "You know, I think when you were 17 years old, you responded to an ad that said, do you like to draw? And you ended up taking a correspondence course through that ad.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. But he always gave me haircuts. And when I went to school, I was always looking very nice. My hair was neatly combed. But the embarrassing thing about that was when I used to go into the shop, and"}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 25, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. This is the one whose ads appear in magazines and matchbook covers. They usually - they used to have a profile of a girl's face."}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 26, "text": "Well...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Anyway, I took the course, and I was too embarrassed to go to a resident art school and..."}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 27, "text": "What were you embarrassed about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Go ahead."}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 28, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I didn't think I was good enough."}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 29, "text": "Did your parents know that you were taking this correspondence course, or did you really want to keep it a secret?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't want to sit in a class where everybody else was better than I was. I'm like Charlie Brown. I hate being defeated. So anyway, I took the correspondence course, and it was a good course, and I "}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 30, "text": "What was the first strip that you did with Charlie Brown or a Charlie Brown kind of character in it? Did it start off as the strip that we know now, or was there a more - was there an earlier version of it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no, they knew it. They were always puzzled by what they could do to help me. I've always been grateful that they never in the slightest way stood in my way for what I wanted to do, even though the"}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 31, "text": "Why are you sorry that you drew that, though?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. But the original submission to United Features was a panel rather than a strip, so there were no definite characters. And then when I went to New York to sign the contract, I took along a batch of"}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 32, "text": "Now, I know that when you first submitted your comic to the syndicate, that they changed the name. They want - they came up with the name of \"Peanuts.\" And you didn't like the name.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't think he should have said something like, how I hate him. It's a little too strong. Nowadays, I think I would make it more mild."}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 33, "text": "What's wrong with \"Peanuts\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Probably the worst title ever thought of for a comic strip. And I always make sure that when I am interviewed that I say this because I like to get revenge, but it is totally inappropriate. It has not"}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 34, "text": "Now, so what title did you want to give it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Peanuts,\" in the first place, is insignificant. It indicates something that is not very important. And also, it is not the name of the lead character, which is what I said would deceive people when t"}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 35, "text": "Now, have you ever hired artists to draw for you, like most people who do newspaper strips end up doing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I would have liked to have called it \"Good Old Charlie Brown.\" But as the years have gone on, I realize that \"Snoopy\" would simply have been the best name because he has turned out to be the l"}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 36, "text": "Do you have any plans to retire?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would quit before I'd do that. The only way, I suppose, that it could happen would be if I had a temporary illness, and I simply couldn't keep up the schedule. But even then I think we would just dr"}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 37, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know how to do anything else, and I don't want to play golf every day. So I suppose what I would like to stop is all of the nuisance things that happen, all of the - the continual stream of re"}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 38, "text": "It's hard for you to say no?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was pretty good, I thought."}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 39, "text": "What's bad about autographing? Is it coming up with something to say or just the whole absurdity of it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very hard. And I despise autographing. I hate to say it, but I really despise autographing. But it's bad enough, all the trouble, but then it's the guilt that is laid upon you because you've turned so"}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 40, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah. And my hands shake. And, sometimes, it's a nuisance. And who wants to autograph a gum wrapper?"}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 41, "text": "You said your hand shakes. Is it embarrassing for you to autograph if your hand shakes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 42, "text": "Does that get in the way of cartooning at home?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Very embarrassing - sometimes, I'd like to draw them a little Snoopy, but my hand shakes, and that is embarrassing."}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 43, "text": "Have you ever wanted to do a strip besides \"Peanuts\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I have to - it's not any worse than it used to be, but I kind of prop one hand against the other, and I can't draw as fast as I used to. I used to be quite facile with the pen. I used to be quit"}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 44, "text": "Is it loyalty to \"Peanuts\" also that would hold you back from doing a different strip?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I never will. I've often thought that I would have liked to have drawn a strip about real children with the cartooning not being as exaggerated as it is with mine, with the larger heads and the l"}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 45, "text": "Charles Schulz, it's been such a great pleasure to talk with you. I want to thank you very much for sharing some of your time with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah because I like what I have, and I think that every thought that comes to me can be used in the \"Peanuts\" strip in some way or another. I never think of something and say, well, gee, I wish I coul"}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 46, "text": "My interview with Charles Schulz was recorded in 1990. He died at the age of 77 in 2000. Saturday marks the centennial of his birth. After we take a short break, our jazz critic, Kevin Whitehead, will talk about the music from the animated TV special \"A Charlie Brown Christmas\" by pianist and composer Vince Guaraldi. Also from our archive, we'll listen back to an interview with Chuck Jones, the animator and director who helped bring to life \"Looney Tunes\" stars Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my pleasure, Terry. I appreciate it."}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 47, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. In 1965, San Francisco pianist Vince Guaraldi wrote and performed this music for the now-classic soundtrack of \"A Charlie Brown Christmas.\" It's been a bestseller ever since. A new edition has been remastered and is being rereleased with material from the original recording sessions. We're going to listen to our jazz critic Kevin Whitehead's 2012 review of a Vince Guaraldi best-of album that included several tracks from \"A Charlie Brown Christmas.\" Kevin began with this recording, which became Guaraldi's first hit.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my pleasure, Terry. I appreciate it."}
{"id": "1138611246", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Peter Robbins", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the centennial of Charles Schulz, creator of Charlie Brown", "question_index": 48, "text": "Kevin Whitehead is the author of the book \"Play The Way You Feel: The Essential Guide To Jazz Stories On Film.\" Coming up, from our archive, Chuck Jones, the animator and director who helped bring to life such \"Looney Tune\" characters as Bugs Bunny, Daffy Duck, Porky Pig and Elmer Fudd. Jones was the sole creator of Pepe Le Pew, Road Runner and Wile E. Coyote. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "With Guaraldi or Ahmad Jamal or Ramsey Lewis, the stuff that wears best is all about fetching rhythm and a bluesy economy. To my ears, Guaraldi's slow tunes and bossas are not so compelling, but he co"}
{"id": "1138618174", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Mel Blanc", "title": "The 'Fresh Air' interview with 'Looney Tunes' animator Chuck Jones", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Although the \"Looney Tunes\" cartoons date back to the 1930s, they became so popular and remain so entertaining that the characters get revived every few years. \"Looney Tunes\" superstars Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck are revived in a new podcast called \"Bugs And Daffy's Thanksgiving Adventure.\" We're going to listen back to our 1989 interview with Chuck Jones, the great animator and director who helped bring to life Bugs Bunny, Daffy Duck, Elmer Fudd and Porky Pig. He directed them in some of their finest roles. Jones was the sole creator of Pepe Le Pew, Road Runner and Wile E. Coyote. Jones worked at Warner Brothers from 1933 until the studio closed its cartoon division in 1963. Then he formed his own production company and created prime-time TV specials. Chuck Jones died in 2002. I spoke with him in 1989 after the publication of his autobiography, \"Chuck Amuck.\" The title was borrowed from \"Duck Amuck,\" Jones' cartoon about cartooning. In that cartoon, Daffy Duck finds himself at the mercy of a fickle cartoonist. Daffy opens the cartoon as a brave musketeer, but the cartoonist keeps changing the scenery on him to the most inappropriate settings - a farm, the Arctic, Hawaii. The cartoonist eventually erases not only the background, but Daffy himself.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1138618174", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Mel Blanc", "title": "The 'Fresh Air' interview with 'Looney Tunes' animator Chuck Jones", "question_index": 1, "text": "Chuck Jones, welcome to FRESH AIR. You changed a lot of the characters who you worked with over the years. Can you describe - when you first started directing Daffy Duck, who was always my favorite - when you started directing Daffy Duck, what was he like? And then maybe you could tell us a little bit of the character changes that you brought to that - to Daffy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Daffy Duck) Would it be too much to ask if we could make up our minds, hmm? (Singing) Dashing through the snow, ya ha ha ha ha. Through the fields we go, laughing all the way. Farewell to thee, fa"}
{"id": "1138618174", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Mel Blanc", "title": "The 'Fresh Air' interview with 'Looney Tunes' animator Chuck Jones", "question_index": 2, "text": "You sound like a method animator", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's a little difficult to isolate them exactly as to what I contributed, but I - all the characters I felt were part of me. Particularly Daffy and the coyote, because they made the kind of mist"}
{"id": "1138618174", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Mel Blanc", "title": "The 'Fresh Air' interview with 'Looney Tunes' animator Chuck Jones", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's a little difficult to isolate them exactly as to what I contributed, but I - all the characters I felt were part of me. Particularly Daffy and the coyote, because they made the kind of mist"}
{"id": "1138618174", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Mel Blanc", "title": "The 'Fresh Air' interview with 'Looney Tunes' animator Chuck Jones", "question_index": 4, "text": "In your cartoon \"Duck Amuck,\" why did you choose Daffy Duck as the character that was going to be at the whim of the cartoonist?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I guess so. I don't think that I could do it unless I cared about the characters."}
{"id": "1138618174", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Mel Blanc", "title": "The 'Fresh Air' interview with 'Looney Tunes' animator Chuck Jones", "question_index": 5, "text": "Mmm hmm. You told us a little bit about how you changed Daffy Duck and how you drew him a little differently, different characteristics you gave him. What about Bugs Bunny? What are some of the changes you brought to Bugs' life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I tried it later with Bugs Bunny and it didn't work. Fortunately, I did \"Duck Amuck\" first, then I did one called \"Rabbit Rampage,\" and he also had the same problem. And he's - the person in thi"}
{"id": "1138618174", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Mel Blanc", "title": "The 'Fresh Air' interview with 'Looney Tunes' animator Chuck Jones", "question_index": 6, "text": "When you did your recording sessions, the voice sessions with Mel Blanc, what kind of suggestions would you make to him about the characteristics that he should try to be getting at through his voice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think one of the nice things about - there were three units there. After 1946, in fact, all the films that Warner now owns were directed by Friz Freleng or Bob McKimson or me. Bob Clampett lef"}
{"id": "1138618174", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Mel Blanc", "title": "The 'Fresh Air' interview with 'Looney Tunes' animator Chuck Jones", "question_index": 7, "text": "All the great characters of the Warner Brothers cartoons were all animals. They're animals with the traits of people, but they're not people. They're ducks and rabbits and skunks. What are some of the advantages of using animals instead of people for the cartoons?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, for one thing, I would have completely laid out the picture, all the key drawings that I would be giving to the animators had already been done, and I would already have finished the exact dialo"}
{"id": "1138618174", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Mel Blanc", "title": "The 'Fresh Air' interview with 'Looney Tunes' animator Chuck Jones", "question_index": 8, "text": "You always believe that in a cartoon world that you have to create certain rules of the universe, and the characters always have to live within those rules. Give us an example through, say, the Roadrunner Wile E. Coyote cartoons because you created those characters.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we had ample precedents to go on. I mean, going back to Aesop's fables and Kipling and even Mark Twain did several things about animals, and of course Beatrix Potter and so many others. But the "}
{"id": "1138618174", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Mel Blanc", "title": "The 'Fresh Air' interview with 'Looney Tunes' animator Chuck Jones", "question_index": 9, "text": "What - tell us a little bit about the universe that you created them in.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1138618174", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Mel Blanc", "title": "The 'Fresh Air' interview with 'Looney Tunes' animator Chuck Jones", "question_index": 10, "text": "We're listening back to my 1989 interview with cartoon animator and director Chuck Jones. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there are several things that happen. In all comedy, the more you channelize, the more you narrow the - your character down, the better it gets for some reason. Take Charlie Chaplin when he - on"}
{"id": "1138618174", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Mel Blanc", "title": "The 'Fresh Air' interview with 'Looney Tunes' animator Chuck Jones", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 1989 interview with cartoon animator and director Chuck Jones. He helped create such \"Looney Tunes\" superstars as Bugs Bunny, Daffy Duck, Porky Pig and Elmer Fudd. He was the sole creator of Pepe Le Pew, Roadrunner and Wile E. Coyote.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there are several things that happen. In all comedy, the more you channelize, the more you narrow the - your character down, the better it gets for some reason. Take Charlie Chaplin when he - on"}
{"id": "1138618174", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Mel Blanc", "title": "The 'Fresh Air' interview with 'Looney Tunes' animator Chuck Jones", "question_index": 12, "text": "One of the characters you created was Pepe Le Pew, this skunk who thinks he's very debonair and quite irresistible, but he's really quite repulsive. He has no idea. And he has this great, fractured French that he speaks. As matter of fact, let me just play a little excerpt of Pepe La Pew. And this is from a cartoon that you won an Academy Award for, \"Scent-imental Reasons.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there are several things that happen. In all comedy, the more you channelize, the more you narrow the - your character down, the better it gets for some reason. Take Charlie Chaplin when he - on"}
{"id": "1138618174", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Mel Blanc", "title": "The 'Fresh Air' interview with 'Looney Tunes' animator Chuck Jones", "question_index": 13, "text": "Why did Pepe Le Pew have to be a French skunk?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Pepe Le Pew) Quel est? Ah, the petite femme skunk. The rendezvous, no? Ah, my darling, how beautiful you are. How lonesome it has been that I have without you. Ah, the sweet nothings, ah, the swee"}
{"id": "1138618174", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Mel Blanc", "title": "The 'Fresh Air' interview with 'Looney Tunes' animator Chuck Jones", "question_index": 14, "text": "Did Maurice Chevalier ever say anything about this character", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "'Cause it's funnier that way. A Bulgarian skunk probably wouldn't have been as interesting or an Egyptian skunk. So I don't know. French - that - the idea that French believe that they are the most de"}
{"id": "1138618174", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Mel Blanc", "title": "The 'Fresh Air' interview with 'Looney Tunes' animator Chuck Jones", "question_index": 15, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "'Cause it's funnier that way. A Bulgarian skunk probably wouldn't have been as interesting or an Egyptian skunk. So I don't know. French - that - the idea that French believe that they are the most de"}
{"id": "1138618174", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Mel Blanc", "title": "The 'Fresh Air' interview with 'Looney Tunes' animator Chuck Jones", "question_index": 16, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't really know whether he did or not. I imitated him. A couple of times, we had him sing a couple of songs the way Chevalier would have sung them. We never, ever imitated any character completely"}
{"id": "1138618174", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Mel Blanc", "title": "The 'Fresh Air' interview with 'Looney Tunes' animator Chuck Jones", "question_index": 17, "text": "You know, I grew up on the Warner Bros.' cartoons, and the older I'd get, the more jokes I'd get. But I never realized I was missing anything when I was young, you know, because I always liked them. And now as an adult, I see things that I didn't see when I thought I was getting all the jokes when I was an older kid. Did anyone at Warner Bros. ever give you an argument that certain things there would go over the head of the - the heads of the audience?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But sometimes, we would infuse a little bit of a lot of characters, like George Sanders' eating of chicken wings very much like Bugs Bunny eating a carrot."}
{"id": "1138618174", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Mel Blanc", "title": "The 'Fresh Air' interview with 'Looney Tunes' animator Chuck Jones", "question_index": 18, "text": "Well, who did you have to answer to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yes, they did. But we didn't pay attention to them. We had - we always had going battles on with our producers, so they would issue edicts like, don't make any pictures about bullfights. Bullfig"}
{"id": "1138618174", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Mel Blanc", "title": "The 'Fresh Air' interview with 'Looney Tunes' animator Chuck Jones", "question_index": 19, "text": "I remember once seeing a short film that was a combination of kind of pornographic cartoons that some of the Disney animators drew in their off hours.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nobody, well, because our pictures went out with the Warner Bros. features and they were always played in theaters. And we really didn't know anything about how they were received until eventually we "}
{"id": "1138618174", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Mel Blanc", "title": "The 'Fresh Air' interview with 'Looney Tunes' animator Chuck Jones", "question_index": 20, "text": "And it ended up getting into circulation. Did you guys ever do anything like that at Warner Bros.?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1138618174", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Mel Blanc", "title": "The 'Fresh Air' interview with 'Looney Tunes' animator Chuck Jones", "question_index": 21, "text": "Yeah?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "1138618174", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Mel Blanc", "title": "The 'Fresh Air' interview with 'Looney Tunes' animator Chuck Jones", "question_index": 22, "text": "So did he make you take that out, or did those frames stay in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, everybody did that. In fact, sometimes, in a Pepe Le Pew picture, I would - I'd put a little salacious one frame, one-twenty-fourth of a second. I'd actually put it in the picture. And then I'd "}
{"id": "1138618174", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Mel Blanc", "title": "The 'Fresh Air' interview with 'Looney Tunes' animator Chuck Jones", "question_index": 23, "text": "Were ever - were any of your scenes or any of your language ever censored?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no. I told him it was too late. It would cost money to take it out, and nobody would ever see it. But I had already inserted it, and it wasn't there anyway. But I did it to see if I couldn't p"}
{"id": "1138618174", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Mel Blanc", "title": "The 'Fresh Air' interview with 'Looney Tunes' animator Chuck Jones", "question_index": 24, "text": "Did that happen a lot - that you felt your cartoons were butchered when they got on TV?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no. That was left to the brilliant people at the networks. And they take out things that make the whole thing incomprehensible."}
{"id": "1138618174", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Mel Blanc", "title": "The 'Fresh Air' interview with 'Looney Tunes' animator Chuck Jones", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well, how did the networks edit the cartoons? What kinds of material would they find offensive?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes, they were, both at CBS and ABC, to name a few of the guilty ones. What's curious to me is that they feel it was necessary to chew up those cartoons. But Nickelodeon, which is a program that's"}
{"id": "1138618174", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Mel Blanc", "title": "The 'Fresh Air' interview with 'Looney Tunes' animator Chuck Jones", "question_index": 26, "text": "Because they thought that it was too violent?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, practically everything. I - you know, in the Bugs Bunny and the rabbit season, duck season things, they would take out every shot in which somebody's - you know, those shots where Daffy's bill wou"}
{"id": "1138618174", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Mel Blanc", "title": "The 'Fresh Air' interview with 'Looney Tunes' animator Chuck Jones", "question_index": 27, "text": "And what years are you talking about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "1138618174", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Mel Blanc", "title": "The 'Fresh Air' interview with 'Looney Tunes' animator Chuck Jones", "question_index": 28, "text": "What years are you talking about that this kind of censorship was there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You couldn't even hit somebody with a pie, for God's sake."}
{"id": "1138618174", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Mel Blanc", "title": "The 'Fresh Air' interview with 'Looney Tunes' animator Chuck Jones", "question_index": 29, "text": "But when I was growing up in the '50s, I think...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it's true now. You still see the films that way."}
{"id": "1138618174", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Mel Blanc", "title": "The 'Fresh Air' interview with 'Looney Tunes' animator Chuck Jones", "question_index": 30, "text": "...They were on, fully.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, they weren't..."}
{"id": "1138618174", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Mel Blanc", "title": "The 'Fresh Air' interview with 'Looney Tunes' animator Chuck Jones", "question_index": 31, "text": "I'd imagine that the cartoons that had gotten the most objections because of the violence were the Roadrunner cartoons, since they're all chase.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, they were. They didn't do all that idiotic stuff. Listen. To me, a person who bears the title of program practices means censorship and are people that are too fat to run and too cowardly to figh"}
{"id": "1138618174", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Mel Blanc", "title": "The 'Fresh Air' interview with 'Looney Tunes' animator Chuck Jones", "question_index": 32, "text": "Did you ever think of yourself as doing a pop kind of surrealism?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's absurd, though, because the roadrunner and the coyote - the roadrunner never harmed the coyote. The coyote was only a victim of his own ineptitude. So the idea that there was any violence"}
{"id": "1138618174", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Mel Blanc", "title": "The 'Fresh Air' interview with 'Looney Tunes' animator Chuck Jones", "question_index": 33, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did some, they tell me. But I never did anything, you know, by sitting down and saying, I'm doing this for a reason."}
{"id": "1138618174", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Mel Blanc", "title": "The 'Fresh Air' interview with 'Looney Tunes' animator Chuck Jones", "question_index": 34, "text": "I wish we had more time to talk.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What I was trying to do is to develop the characters that I understood and to have fun doing it. And that was the whole secret of Warner Brothers cartoons - is a bunch of people happened to come toget"}
{"id": "1138618174", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Mel Blanc", "title": "The 'Fresh Air' interview with 'Looney Tunes' animator Chuck Jones", "question_index": 35, "text": "I really want to thank you a lot for talking with us. My interview with cartoon animator and director Chuck Jones was recorded in 1989. He died in 2002. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our interview with singer, songwriter and guitarist Brandi Carlile. She's nominated for seven Grammys. Her latest album, \"In These Silent Days,\" grew out of her 2021 bestselling memoir. We'll hear about her life, her music and her family. She lives with her wife, their children and their extended family in a compound in Washington state. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do, too."}
{"id": "1138618174", "date": "2022-11-24", "guest": "Mel Blanc", "title": "The 'Fresh Air' interview with 'Looney Tunes' animator Chuck Jones", "question_index": 36, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our senior producer today is Roberta Shorrock. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley, and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. All of us at FRESH AIR hope that you enjoy the rest of the holiday. And for those of you who had to work today, thanks for keeping things going, making it possible for others to take the day off. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do, too."}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 0, "text": "Brandi Carlile, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You're feeling nervous, aren't you, boy? With your quiet voice and impeccable style. Don't ever let them steal, your joy and your gentle ways to keep 'em from running wild. They can kick dir"}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 1, "text": "That song is kind of about, you know, being a misfit, being excluded because of who you are, being seen as less than. So I think your book starts with a reason you might have felt like a misfit right from the start of your life. And that's what I referred to before, getting meningitis when you were 4 and, you know, nearly dying, being in a coma and flat-lining several times while you were in the coma. Doctors weren't sure you'd pull through. When you think about that moment, that period - and I know your memories of it - I'm sure you don't really remember being in a coma. But when you think about when you learned that you were in that world between life and death, what do you think about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. It's so good to be here with you."}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 2, "text": "What do you mean by that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I have really detailed abstract memories of that time. And I remember really specific things, kid things, you know, that you'd think a kid would remember, like, you know, what kind of toys I w"}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 3, "text": "Did you grow up afraid of death and that it could take you at any moment?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that the fallibility that gets exposed when you realize that your parents don't have any control over whether or not you live or die is not something you're supposed to really realize, I"}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 4, "text": "Yeah. Your family thought that you survived because God had a plan for you. How seriously did you take that? That's a - kind of a lot of pressure in a way", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, kind of. But I did believe that there were mystical reasons why it didn't. It was kind of part of my narrative."}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 5, "text": ", isn't it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, kind of. But I did believe that there were mystical reasons why it didn't. It was kind of part of my narrative."}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 6, "text": "Did it give you a sense of faith in God that you maybe wouldn't have had otherwise?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is a lot of pressure. You're right. I don't know. You know, I think I took it real seriously. And I think that it was something that I told myself really often, and I believed it. And that gave me "}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 7, "text": "Or by organized religion", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It did. It gave me a sense of - the faith in God that's an unshakable by, you know, the whims of culture, by politics, by people."}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It did. It gave me a sense of - the faith in God that's an unshakable by, you know, the whims of culture, by politics, by people."}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 9, "text": "So you knew when you were a child that you wanted to sing, and when you went with your mother to, you know, the regional opry where she was auditioning, you saw a 9-year-old sing. And you thought, if she can do it when she's 9, I could do it when I'm 9. I don't have to wait till I'm an adult. And you started singing and auditioning when you were a child as a result of that. Did you start to feel at that point like maybe that was the special thing that God had singled you out for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Or by organized religion - by church specifically. Yeah, exactly."}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 10, "text": "You wanted songs that belonged to you even when you were a child, and you didn't know how to find a songwriter. So you thought, well, maybe I'll write some songs myself. Do you remember the first song that you wrote?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Um, I don't think I drew that conclusion right away. But the epiphany of realizing that that was something I didn't have to wait to start is like, you know, what do you get asked as a kid all the time"}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Like 10 or something. And she, like, leaned down to me and said something about how she just met a composer. And he had two originals that he wanted her to sing. And I was never competitive with my"}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 12, "text": "Can you sing a few bars of it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It's called - and it was called \"Ride On Out.\" And it was about, you know, riding on out into the sunset."}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 13, "text": "What were you thinking about? What was the story in your mind that accompanied the lyric?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It was like, (singing) I'm going to ride on out. I'm going to hit the road. I'm going to take to the trails with a speedy mode, leave you behind in a dusty cloud, sing nature's song both quiet a"}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, that's great. Well, thank you for singing that for us. Your friend Amber, who loved to sing, started singing with you. And her father was an Elvis impersonator. So you and she became his backup singers and had to learn the parts of the Jordanaires, who sang backup for Elvis Presley. What did you get out of studying Elvis recordings and the Jordanaires' harmonies?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was thinking about cowboys or cowgirls riding through the desert on horseback and falling asleep next to a campfire and their saddles and, you know, picking on acoustic guitars and spending the days"}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 15, "text": "What did you learn from watching the audience?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, that is not a bad education. It was like - it was a lesson in pitch. It was a lesson in delivery. It was a lesson in blend, but also countermelodies - the fact that the harmonies didn't "}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 16, "text": "Now, was that the black-leather dude or the white-suit dude?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I learned the things that they react to, how a smile is contagious. I learned about comedic timing. I learned about sort of, like, physical communication, especially because Elvis was such a physical "}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 17, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Brandi Carlile. She's a Grammy Award-winning singer-songwriter and guitarist. Her new memoir is called \"Broken Horses.\" We'll talk more after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Both. You name it. You name it."}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with singer-songwriter and guitarist Brandi Carlile. She's won Grammys, Americana Music Awards and a Country Music Award. Her new memoir is called \"Broken Horses.\" So you write in your memoir - this is referring to your period when you were in school. And you dropped out when you were a sophomore in high school. You wrote, my need to be perceived as confident and strong was starting to consume me. This period is, to say the least, a fragile time in any child's life. gender dysphoria, as I understand it now, is a natural concept during adolescence. But I had no language for it. Would you describe what you were experiencing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Both. You name it. You name it."}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 19, "text": "I don't know if this song exactly fits here. But I want to play it. And the song is called \"That Wasn't Me.\" And you describe it in your memoir as a song that's your deepest healing song. I'd like - before we hear it, I'd like to know what you mean by that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's abstract. But I think I was experiencing, you know, the beginnings of puberty and not really understanding how to be in my body. I think that's a pretty common adolescent experience just in gener"}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 20, "text": "His addiction to alcohol?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that I wrote that song about my father's addiction and recovery. And..."}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 21, "text": "So I like this a lot. So let's hear it. This is Brandi Carlile, \"That Wasn't Me\" from her 2012 album \"Bear Creek.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Addiction to alcohol and recovery. And, you know, I grew up in Al-Anon/Alateen. And, you know, I was sort of steeped in a philosophy and that kind of language and that sort of understanding. And when "}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 22, "text": "So that was my guest, Brandi Carlile, her song, \"That Wasn't Me.\" Your parents didn't go to church much, but you did. We talked a little bit earlier about feeling that, you know, God had a plan for you and that's why you were spared from death when you were 4 and had meningitis. But, you know, the church you went to is pretty hostile to homosexuality. How did you reconcile that when you started to figure out that you were gay and that the church was not going to approve of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Hang on. Just hang on for a minute. I've got something to say. I'm not asking you to move on or forget it. But these are better days. To be wrong all along and admit it is not amazing grace,"}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 23, "text": "Well, you weren't able to be baptized. How were you told that you weren't going to be baptized?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, to be honest with you, I don't know why I overlooked it. I think that I've always just felt that even if the culture or the environment of where I'm at isn't where I'm physically at, isn't where"}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 24, "text": "What was the shift spiritually?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was kind of - I was doing the things I thought I was supposed to do. And - but on the day of my baptism where my friends and family had all been invited to the church to see this go down, I got ther"}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 25, "text": "You left high school when you were a sophomore. And your younger brother, who's just about a year younger than you, left at the same time. Did that have anything to do with not getting baptized? I'm not sure of the chronology.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University, in for Terry Gross. Let's get back to Terry's interview with singer-songwriter and guitarist Brandi Carlile"}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 26, "text": "Which is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, uh-uh. I think that it had - it was that - there were a lot of reasons for it at that time, and it wasn't clear to me then. But when I look back on it now, you know, I see why it happened."}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 27, "text": "Did that open the door to doing more music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "moment in our adolescence."}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 28, "text": "Well, you've had several turning points in your music life, but one important and lasting one was meeting the Hanseroth twins, Phil and Tim. And they play guitar and other instruments and sing harmony and write or co-write songs for your band. Did you realize it was a turning point when you started playing with them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It did after a minute. I think for a minute, we were in grief about it without really knowing that that's what it was. I remember my brother and I went to a yard sale. We picked up a big old box of un"}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 29, "text": "What effect are you talking about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It would be really hard to meet the twins and not see a turning point in them. They have a charisma and a work ethic and a magicalness that is just instantly apparent to anyone that meets them. And I "}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 30, "text": "I want to play a track in which the three of you harmonize together. It's called \"The Eye.\" It's from your 2015 album, \"The Firewatcher's Daughter.\" And do you want to say anything about recording this? It's just - it's really beautiful.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just that you meet the twins and you only want to be with them. You, like, only want to work with them. You only want to sing with them. You only want to play with them. And if you're lucky enough to "}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 31, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you. Well, we recorded this with Trina Shoemaker on on our album \"Firewatcher's Daughter.\" And we all stood around in our configuration, which is, like, three microphones in intertwined stan"}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 32, "text": "So let's hear it. This is my guest, Brandi Carlile, and the Hanseroth twins. And this is \"The Eye.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Three-part harmony at the same time. And something - the tension between the three of us keeps us all in sync. And that's how we record three-part harmony on everything. But on this song in particu"}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 33, "text": "That was \"The Eye\" from Brandi Carlile's album \"Firewatcher's Daughter.\" and we heard her singing harmony with Tim and Phil Hanseroth - the Hanseroth twins. And they've been together as a band since what year?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) It really breaks my heart to see a dear old friend go down to the worn-out place again. Do you know the sound of a closing door? Have you heard that sound somewhere before? Do you wonder if "}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 34, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Brandi Carlile. She's a Grammy Award-winning singer, songwriter and guitarist. She has a new memoir called \"Broken Horses.\" We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, probably 2000, 2001 - somewhere around there. Yeah."}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 35, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with singer, songwriter and guitarist Brandi Carlile, who's won Grammys, Americana Music Awards and a Country Music Award. Her new memoir is called \"Broken Horses.\" Your first really serious long-term partner, Kim, was 17 years older than you. And you write a little bit about what you describe as your attraction to older, androgynous women when you were younger. And you say at the time, you told yourself it's because you were special and you were an old soul. How do you think about it now looking back?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, probably 2000, 2001 - somewhere around there. Yeah."}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 36, "text": "And Kim, the woman we're speaking of, she was and maybe still is a police officer. What did that expose you to just in terms of the kind of - I don't know - crime that she had to deal with or protests or whatever? I mean, police officers have different lives than the rest of us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that I was looking for something. I was trying to stabilize from my childhood. And I needed to connect to some really soulful older people in life. And I did that romantically. I did that in m"}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 37, "text": "Like more combustible style of communication?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's such a good question, actually, that no one's ever asked me before. It really was a lifestyle to be with a police officer for nine years. And there was a lot we disagreed on. We clashed a"}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 38, "text": "Was she out on the police force?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Definitely more combustible, but also more repressed in a way. There's a lot of self-sacrifice that happens. And Kim in particular was so critical of policing, or more importantly, the enforcement sid"}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 39, "text": "No, just among other officers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You mean out on patrol?"}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 40, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, out of the closet?"}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 41, "text": "So how were you - how was she treated and how were you treated as her girlfriend?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. There ain't no closet for Kim Bogucki."}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 42, "text": "Yeah. I love that she lives on the compound, too. You've really created this incredible family of, you know, like, blood family and family by marriage and people who become family because you're just that close to them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't notice any kind of treatment of me, per se. And I think that Kim has been an officer that's probably received a lot of accolades just for her community work and her outreach. But, God, I coul"}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 43, "text": "Right. So you not only created your family of choice, you created your community of choice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. My dad pointed that out to me recently. When I was just starting writing the book, I talked to him about that. And we were sitting at the table. And he doesn't say very much. He's a very quiet m"}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 44, "text": "Yeah. So this thing where you say, like, you really don't like to be alone, has it always been that way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 45, "text": "So I want to play another song. But this time it's not your band. It's a band that you're in with several other women, with Amanda Shires, Maren Morris, Natalie Hemby. And it's called The Highwomen. It's a play on The Highwaymen. You've won music awards with this group. So the song I want to play is \"If She Ever Leaves Me.\" And it's a great song, and you sound great on it, but it's a song from the point of view of a lesbian who's singing to this guy. If she ever leaves me, it won't be for you", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh yeah. Girl, I do not do alone. I can't do it for one day. If my wife's like, I got to go somewhere, you know, with the kids or we're going to go see so and so, and I got to be alone, I just start c"}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 46, "text": ". So talk a little bit about the song before we hear it and what it means in country music 'cause this got a country music songwriting award. So what does it mean in country music to have a song from a lesbian point of view?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh yeah. Girl, I do not do alone. I can't do it for one day. If my wife's like, I got to go somewhere, you know, with the kids or we're going to go see so and so, and I got to be alone, I just start c"}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 47, "text": "That's a great song. So this is Brandi Carlile with the group The Highwomen.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's what it's basically saying. I get such a kick out of singing that song."}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 48, "text": "That was Brandi Carlile singing lead with the group The Highwomen. And the song is \"If She Ever Leaves Me.\" Thank you. That's such a", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I see you watch her from across the room, dancing her home in your mind. It takes more than whiskey to make that flower bloom. By the third drink, you'll find out she's mine. I've loved her "}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 49, "text": "great performance. You know, you write that during the pandemic, when when you couldn't travel and couldn't perform and you had to just, like, be in one spot pretty much, that you had to sit with your workaholism for the first time in your life. Workaholism - workaholic is a very negative word. It sounds like a terrible habit, you know, that needs to be broken, that's very destructive. But being a hard worker is something that has very positive connotations. So why do you call yourself a workaholic, and what does that mean to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I see you watch her from across the room, dancing her home in your mind. It takes more than whiskey to make that flower bloom. By the third drink, you'll find out she's mine. I've loved her "}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 50, "text": "So how do you think your life is going to change now when things eventually, we hope, start to normalize?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think I make jokes about how many times I've danced on the edge of really being a workaholic because I - that's what I do. I joke about serious things. And it was getting to the point around t"}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 51, "text": "Do you sometimes feel that when you're not really performing or, you know, getting accolades or something that - and without your performing career that you will just become a child again, that you will be seen as you were when you were a child and you were bullied and you felt like a misfit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I need to get a grip on my ambition. I need to, like, start enjoying being here instead of constantly trying to prove that I have a right to be here, constantly trying to fit and assimilate. And at so"}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 52, "text": "Brandi Carlile, it has been just such a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much. And I really enjoyed your new book as well, of course, as your music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, exactly. It's just - I think that I will go away or that people will realize that I'd slipped through the back door of the party but didn't have an invitation and that it will go - you know, it'"}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 53, "text": "Oh", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. I really appreciate it. It's been so wonderful to talk to you. You're just amazing."}
{"id": "1138606640", "date": "2022-11-25", "guest": "Brandi Carlile", "title": "Singer Brandi Carlile talks ambition, avoidance and finally finding her place", "question_index": 54, "text": ", thanks.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. I really appreciate it. It's been so wonderful to talk to you. You're just amazing."}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I am Terry Gross. A recurring theme in screenwriter and director James Gray's films, including \"The Immigrant\" and \"Little Odessa,\" is what it's like to be an immigrant or the child of immigrants in America. Gray's other films include \"The Yards,\" \"Two Lovers,\" \"The Lost City Of Z\" and \"Ad Astra.\" His new film, \"Armageddon Time,\" is based on his own childhood as the grandchild of Jewish immigrants from Ukraine who fled antisemitism in the 1920s. Set in 1980 when the child, Paul, is 11 and living in Queens, N.Y., the film is about his reaction to hearing some of his grandparents' stories and about learning how race and class in America often predetermine the course of your life. Paul is the son of a working-class father and a mother who comes from a more prosperous immigrant family. Although Paul's grandparents fled antisemitism and his whole family considers itself liberal, they're blind to their own racism. Paul's best friend, Johnny, is Black. They're both considered troublemakers in school. But Paul's family pulls him from public school and away from Johnny. They send him to a private school based on the school James Gray attended. Paul felt rich in public school but realizes he's far from it after he arrives in the private school, which his grandfather is paying for because Paul's father, who's a plumber, can't afford it. In the film, Donald Trump's father, Fred Trump, is on the board of trustees of the school and is a financial donor, just as he was in the private school James Gray attended. In this scene, on Paul's first day at the school, Fred Trump's sister (ph), Maryanne Trump, who at the time was an assistant U.S. attorney, gives a motivational speech to these very privileged students. The speech is James Gray's attempt to recreate the speech he heard her give when he was in school. Maryanne Trump is played by Jessica Chastain.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 1, "text": "James Gray, welcome to FRESH AIR. I really like this movie, so thank you for joining us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Maryanne Trump) Today, I'm not here to give you the same old talk. Today, I'm going to give it to you straight. You're going to want to go to a good college. You're going to want to succeed. But y"}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 2, "text": "Can you compare your reaction to Maryanne's Trump's speech when you heard it, when you were 11, to how you think of it looking back on it now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a pleasure to be here."}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 3, "text": "The assumption in her speech and then what is made more explicit later in the movie when Fred Trump makes a speech is that you have an obligation to be the leaders in business, finance and politics. You are the elite, he's telling the students. How did you feel? 'Cause you weren't the elite.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have to confess to you that at that age, I did think it was ridiculous. So I am not sure my attitude on it now is all that different. I remember thinking, what is she talking about? She's probably w"}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 4, "text": "In the film, the character based on you, Paul, the 11-year-old, encounters Fred Trump on his first day at the private school, where Fred is on the board of directors. You had a similar encounter. Tell us what happened to you and what your encounter with Fred Trump was like.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a weird thing, you know, when I look back on it now. It's sort of like - what you see is that you can be the oppressor and the oppressed at the same time and that the world is a - I remember thin"}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 5, "text": "I remember it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I just walked in there, and I must have looked absolutely absurd. I had - I remember that my brother was - he gave me this product, Dippity-Do, which was this sort of hair gel, and my..."}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 6, "text": "Did he ask you your last name?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course. And, you know, I probably thought of myself as looking like a - I don't know - a young Elvis Presley or something - and looked insane, I'm sure. My hair was, like, plastered down. And my fa"}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 7, "text": "So your original name, your grandpa's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He sure did. And he said to me - I remember he said, what's your name? And I said, Gray. He said, what's your parents' names? I said, Irwin and Hester. And he sort of looked, and he nodded. And I - it"}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Greyzerstein.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Greyzerstein."}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Was he trying to find out if you were Jewish? Was that it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 10, "text": "So Donald Trump went to the private school that you went to. So in addition to his father, Fred Trump, being on the board of trustees and his aunt (ph) Maryanne Trump giving a speech to the school, a motivational speech - yeah, so Donald Trump went there. Did you have any connection with him or any good stories to tell?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm sure. I'm sure. No question."}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Of course, I should have realized that, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no, he's quite a bit older than I am, I'm proud to say. But..."}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I - of course, his - he had a legend because he took a desk, apparently, and threw it into the center of what was then called the Interborough - it's now called the Jackie Robinson Parkway - which"}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 13, "text": "The movie is, in a way, about a child who doesn't have the vocabulary or the knowledge of history to articulate or understand the race, class and ethnicity issues that he's facing and he sees around him. But he knows things aren't right. And his family in the movie - and you could tell us about your family. His family, his grandparents, fled antisemitism in the 1920s. But they don't see any connection between the antisemitism they faced and the way they really distrust Black people in America and are very wary of Black people moving into the neighborhood or attending the school, like, starting to go...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yup. It's one of the weirdest things ever."}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 14, "text": "...To the same school that Paul attends, the 11-year-old. And I was wondering if that was - if it was that way in your family and if you understood the contradiction or hypocrisy behind that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 15, "text": "In the film, Paul has a good friend, who's Black. And I think you did, too, when you were his age, when you were 11. Was it unusual in your public school for white and Black kids to be close friends?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a great question. It's a very strange thing in the world that we live in a kind of ideological box, right? And you can't really step outside of that box. What you can do is maybe have some kind o"}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 16, "text": "So when you went to, like, the white, very privileged private school, how did you respond? Did you feel like you could talk back to them and say, you know, you're just wrong? Or did you feel like you had to be quiet about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a - this is a very important question. And the answer is, absolutely not. The bussing program meant that the class was filled with all kinds of people from all kinds of parts of the world. I me"}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It depends on whether I should answer this honestly..."}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 18, "text": "The new private school, more elite world?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Or whether I should say, I'm a very good guy. No, the sad truth is that the - most of the language was pretty vicious and considerably worse even than what's in the movie - and terrible things also"}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 19, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is screenwriter and director James Gray. And his new film is called \"Armageddon Time.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. Well, I knew that was my ticket, you know? That was the way that I could succeed in life, or at least I thought it was, you know, that I could get to a university and - which I wound up "}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with screenwriter and director James Gray. His new film, \"Armageddon Time,\" is based on his life when he was around 11 years old and his parents took him out of public school and put him into private school. And in public school in the film, his best friend is a Black boy his age. And in the private school - that's an exclusively white, very privileged school. And the kids there are pretty openly racist. James Gray's other films include \"Little Odessa,\" \"The Yards,\" \"Two Lovers,\" \"The Immigrant,\" \"The Lost City Of Z\" and \"Ad Astra.\" So let me get to a central incident in the film without really explaining what it is, which is that, you know, at a point where both Paul, the white boy, based on you, and Johnny, his Black friend, are both very disillusioned with their lives and with school, and they both want to just kind of get out. And they come up with a scheme to get money to do that. And I want to, without giving too much away from the film, flip to an incident in your life where you and your friend stole something. And I'd like you to explain what you stole and why you did it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. Well, I knew that was my ticket, you know? That was the way that I could succeed in life, or at least I thought it was, you know, that I could get to a university and - which I wound up "}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Wait, wait. In what ways?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We stole - I mean, we were space nerds. We went into a Bloomingdales, which was in Fresh Meadows, Queens, which is where I grew up, and they had a small bookstore area, and they had these \"Star Trek\" "}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Based on what I've read, it sounds like about six years later, he was killed in some kind of drug deal gone wrong.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The security guard - my father was called in. My friend had his - he lived with his grandmother, who had Alzheimer's. Now I can - you know, I know what it is, but at the time, you just said she's losi"}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 23, "text": "How did you find out about that? And what was your reaction? I mean, I'm wondering if you thought that, you know, after the incident, you know, where you were both caught at Bloomingdales, whether that kind of sent him into a downward spiral, you know, whether his punishment from the police or the security guards or whatever just kind of put him on the wrong path.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right, in an area called Jamaica, Queens. That's right."}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Did you ever feel like, oh, there's more I could have done for my friend so that when I got cut loose, he would have benefited from that, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's no way for me to really know that. What I can say is I was devastated when I heard. It was not at the moment. I heard several years after it happened. I think it was 1986 that he was killed. A"}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 25, "text": "And unfair.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wow. I hate to tell you the answer is, honestly, no, I never thought about it. Again, I don't want to beat myself up too much because, you know, you're 11 or 12. The world is really a very different, "}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 26, "text": "Well, let's take a break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is screenwriter and director James Gray. His new semi-autobiographical film is called \"Armageddon Time.\" We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And in fact - yeah, and unfair. And it becomes ever more troubling when you know that you benefit. Most people, I think - how should we put this? Most people don't try to do bad things, but most pe"}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 27, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with screenwriter and director James Gray. His movies include \"Little Odessa,\" \"The Yards,\" \"Two Lovers,\" \"The Immigrant,\" \"The Lost City Of Z\" and \"Ad Astra.\" His new film, \"Armageddon Time,\" is based on his own childhood as the grandchild of Jewish immigrants from Ukraine who fled antisemitism in the 1920s. The film is set in 1980 when the child, Paul, is 11 and living in Queens, N.Y. And it's about his reaction to hearing some of his grandparents' stories and about learning how race and class in America often predetermine the course of your life. In the film, the father beats the boy with a strap or a belt, and it looks quite painful. Did you have to endure that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) A lot of people won't get no supper tonight."}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 28, "text": "What did he do to you that was worse than what we saw in the film?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this is - this feels like my therapy session. Yeah, it was worse, actually, in real life. But you don't have the time in a movie to depict it as it actually was and still have sympathy for the f"}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 29, "text": "You said that to him? Or you just thought it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, to hit me directly with his hand and his fist. But, you know, this - I will say this. It was - again, I'm not excusing that behavior, which is beyond disgraceful. I mean, I've never once"}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 30, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no, I thought it."}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 31, "text": "Your grandparents, like the grandparents in the movie, fled Ukraine. They were fleeing antisemitism. And in the movie, your maternal grandfather tells the story of why his mother fled, which I believe is based on the story your grandfather told you about why his mother fled. Tell us the story of why your great-grandmother fled Ukraine.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he never touched me again. Never. For whatever - I don't know what it was that I communicated to him unspoken. But I thought it. And I had this - you know, I used to build model rockets and model "}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 32, "text": "Was that because of immigration law?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They had a dry goods store in a small town called Ostropol in Ukraine, which, by the way, is now no longer even a town. It was razed by the Einsatzgruppen in - I think, in 1941 or - no, might have bee"}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 33, "text": "Is it true that your great-grandparents were beheaded?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. I mean, 1924, the door closed as the United States basically said, no more immigrants. And that's about it. And that was really the end of Ellis Island as a functioning immigration cente"}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 34, "text": "So your grandmother actually witnessed that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's correct."}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Did that scar you just hearing the story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's correct. I mean, you can imagine that would be - you can imagine that would scar you for life, I think."}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 36, "text": "Well, let's take another break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is screenwriter and director James Gray. His new movie is called \"Armageddon Time.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think so. I have been much more educated lately over the past 10 years and, thankfully, with the help of my wife on these matters, who's really fantastic in all ways but especially this one, really,"}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 37, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with screenwriter and director James Gray. He made the films \"Little Odessa,\" \"The Yards,\" \"Two Lovers,\" \"The Immigrant,\" \"The Lost City Of Z\" and \"Ad Astra.\" His new film, \"Armageddon Time,\" is a semi-autobiographical film based on his life when he was 11. So you heard stories about the antisemitism that your grandparents faced and why they fled, including that your grandmother saw her parents beheaded by Cossacks in Ukraine. What did antisemitism mean to you when you were growing up and you were 11 in 1980, the year the movie is set? Did you see much of it around you, like - because I think a lot of kids grew up feeling so distanced from the antisemitism that their grandparents or great-, or great-great-grandparents fled because it seems so far in the past.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think so. I have been much more educated lately over the past 10 years and, thankfully, with the help of my wife on these matters, who's really fantastic in all ways but especially this one, really,"}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 38, "text": "Your grandfather was more prosperous than your father, at least that's the way the story is told in the movie. How did he make his money?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I will tell you, my attitude was that that was in the past and that they were being a bit fuddy-duddy about it, that it was - you know, we don't have that here. This is the United States. And I "}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 39, "text": "I think your grandfather on the other side owned a saloon on the Lower East Side of Manhattan. Is that right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he was only - let me be clear about this. He was only marginally more prosperous. I mean, my - there was a big kind of - it was interesting, a kind of class divide in my house. My father's fathe"}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 40, "text": "Oh, your great-grandfather?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my great-grandfather. That's very impressive. You..."}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 41, "text": "Was your great-grandfather involved with bootlegging or any other kind of crime?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that's right. And he - it was called Hurwitz's. And it was - I think it was on Orchard Street. Though, I could be wrong about that."}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 42, "text": "No. Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That I don't know about. Although, I do know that my great-uncle was Ralph Capone's accountant, which I think is one of the greatest..."}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 43, "text": "What was Ralph Capone's relationship to Al?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yes, that's right."}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 44, "text": "Wow. That's a pretty impressive connection to organized crime", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was Al Capone's brother. They were part of his accounting team. I'm just so happy that I got to know him, because I don't know why he wasn't 86ed after Al Capone got fingered for tax evasion. I don"}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 45, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was Al Capone's brother. They were part of his accounting team. I'm just so happy that I got to know him, because I don't know why he wasn't 86ed after Al Capone got fingered for tax evasion. I don"}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 46, "text": "You know, on a, perhaps, not unrelated note, your father, who was an electronics contractor - and correct me if I'm wrong on any of this. His company was hired as a contractor by the New York City subways and was involved in...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "impressive is an interesting use of words, but yes."}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 47, "text": "Oh, SEPTA, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, actually, Metro-North Transit and SEPTA for Pennsylvania. I don't think he wound up doing any work..."}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 48, "text": "SEPTA is the transit authority in Philadelphia, where our show is produced.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. I don't think he did anything for MTA. Although, you're quite right that that's what he did do in his..."}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 49, "text": "So he was involved in a corruption scandal in the mid-1980s, which your film, \"The Yards,\" was inspired by. Would you describe the corruption scandal your father was involved in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right, Philadelphia. And the shop was in Mineola, N.Y., which is on Long Island."}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 50, "text": "So he was indicted on 56 counts of fraudulent activity. That's a lot of counts.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a pretty simple thing, really. My father wound up getting into this business in order to, as he would put it, to make sure that our boat comes in, you know, to support the family. And this was pr"}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 51, "text": "Did he have to go to prison or anything?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It sure is. And he had written letters. Part of it was that he had written letters to Metro-North, I think, and, like I said, SEPTA, saying, you know, this part was delivered; how come you haven't pai"}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 52, "text": "How surprised were you that he would kind of beat you when he thought you were leaving the straight and narrow, and he was involved in this corruption scandal? Whether he knew all about it or just part of it, he was still participating in it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, he - I think he finally had a plea bargain and settled with the court. He was fined a lot of money, I think, which we didn't really have. So he was paying it off in small installments, really, for"}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 53, "text": "Yeah, I do know that term. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. You know the term situational ethics?"}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 54, "text": "How much did it change your understanding of your father?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm sure you do. I think part of it was that he thought that he was inculcating me to be better than he was, that he was involved in a daily, weekly, monthly struggle and that hopefully I would not ha"}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 55, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is screenwriter and director James Gray, and his new film is called \"Armageddon Time.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it was deeply heartbreaking. The whole thing was heartbreaking. You have to understand that in this moment of my life, there was that. Your father is charged with 56 counts. My God. And our mo"}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 56, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with screenwriter and director James Gray. His new film is called \"Armageddon Time.\" He also made the films \"The Yards,\" \"The Immigrant,\" \"The Lost City Of Z,\" \"Ad Astra\" and \"Little Odessa.\" So you wanted to get, like, details correct about your family, including the way your father spoke. Did you have pictures of, like, the wallpaper and the furniture from the house you grew up in? And did you show that to the set designers? And if so, what are some of the things you wanted in the film that came out of your home?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it was deeply heartbreaking. The whole thing was heartbreaking. You have to understand that in this moment of my life, there was that. Your father is charged with 56 counts. My God. And our mo"}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 57, "text": "I want to contrast your new film, \"Armageddon Time,\" in which you basically tried to recreate your home and the furniture and the wallpaper and the clothes and all of that as it was in 1980 - contrast that with your movie \"The Lost City Of Z,\" which is shot in the jungle of, I think, Colombia.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let me tell you, Terry, my father was an avid photographer, and he was completely awful. And thankfully, he was totally unaware of his awfulness. We had thousands of photographs of the house, of peopl"}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 58, "text": "And from what I've read on the set, I mean, people were getting, like, sick, all kind of intestinal diseases, insect problems. Would you ever make a movie like that again where people have to suffer a certain amount being in what sounds like a pretty hostile environment? Would you ever want to do that again? It just sounds like it's hard enough to direct a basic movie, but to be in the jungle while making it, unless you're, like, Werner Herzog and you are really an extremist", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 59, "text": ", it sounds really rough.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 60, "text": "You didn't want to wait to shoot a certain scene because there was a caiman approaching. What is a caiman? I should know this, but I don't.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was, in some ways, an act of hubris on my part. Obviously, I was a huge fan of Werner Herzog and \"Aguirre\" and \"Fitzcarraldo\" and - \"Aguirre, The Wrath Of God,\" that is - and, of course, also of "}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 61, "text": "Is it like a kind of alligator or something?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, dear."}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 62, "text": "By the way, I noticed that when you do your inner voice, when you're impersonating yourself in telling a story, it's not your voice. It sounds more like it would be the voice of your father or grandfather.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's a kind of crocodile. And I remember saying to the guy - I said to him - I said - the wonderful producer from Colombia. And he was standing in the boat. And I said, Philippe (ph), are there "}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 63, "text": "Well, I've listened to myself enough that, you know, I've learned that that is how I sound. But the first few times I heard myself, I was really just totally embarrassed and thought like that can't be true.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When you listen to yourself on tape - not that you do or should - does it sound like you think you sound?"}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 64, "text": "In the church?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. So what I'm doing for you is the idiot that I think that I actually am to you. That's - I'm trying to apply - you know, the opening of \"Mean Streets\" where Harvey Keitel..."}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 65, "text": "Oh, oh, oh, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it's when Harvey Keitel sits up in bed. It's the very beginning of the film."}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 66, "text": "James Gray, it's been so great to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right before that, you hear a voice sing you do it in the streets. And it's this little bit kind of this pre-film, maybe two- or three-sentence monologue that you hear. And it is supposed to be Harvey"}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 67, "text": "James Gray's new film is called \"Armageddon Time.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, journalist Luke Harding will talk about covering the war in Ukraine for The Guardian. He's written a new book called \"Invasion.\" He was in Ukraine when the invasion started and has continued to report from there. He formerly was The Guardian's Moscow bureau chief and was expelled from Russia because the Kremlin disapproved of his reporting. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Great to talk with you."}
{"id": "1139404785", "date": "2022-11-28", "guest": "Jessica Chastain", "title": "'Armageddon Time' director explores how the world is ruined by 'well-meaning people'", "question_index": 68, "text": "Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Great to talk with you."}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 0, "text": "That's Trevor Noah on \"The Daily Show.\" Trevor Noah, welcome to FRESH AIR. Thanks so much for coming. Had you seen \"The Daily Show\" in South Africa?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have a very good brain. And I know this because every time I ask people if I have a good brain, they say, of course, Mr. President. Now please, let my family go. You've already killed my sister. I t"}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 1, "text": "You're kidding, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. But interestingly enough, when I first started watching \"The Daily Show,\" we used to see it on CNN. And so my perception of \"The Daily Show\" was very different. I thought that Jon Stewart was a "}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 2, "text": "So what is your role now in writing and editing the show?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I'm being serious. In a lot of regions, CNN actually broadcasts \"The Daily Show.\" So there's a global edition of \"The Daily Show\" that's one episode. And in countries where there's no Comedy Centr"}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 3, "text": "That leads to manic depression, doesn't it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "From 8 a.m. in the morning, we start dissecting the news, discussing it, looking for angles, looking for takes, building a show, rewriting it, getting it together, gathering materials. We work through"}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 4, "text": "Your show's great, you feel great. Your show's bad, it's like, oh, this is so horrible.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "From 8 a.m. in the morning, we start dissecting the news, discussing it, looking for angles, looking for takes, building a show, rewriting it, getting it together, gathering materials. We work through"}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 5, "text": "So in your standup comedy, you've talked about being excited about coming to America, where you would be defined as Black instead of - I don't know - colored or mixed race in South Africa, because your father is white, your mother is Black, and you were born during the apartheid era. So you did some comedy in the U.S. about opening a bank account in America and having to fill out your race or ethnicity, and you don't really know what to write in. And a bank representative is helping you fill out the form. So this is Trevor Noah from his 2013 album \"African American.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That's why you have to learn to live outside the show. I think one of the biggest things I've had to learn is TV destroys your perspective. You know, when I think back to myself and I go, if any"}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 6, "text": "That was Trevor Noah in 2013. When you started doing comedy, which was - when? What year are we talking?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Bzzt, bzzt (ph)."}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 7, "text": "So apartheid was already over. Were you performing in front of Black and white audiences? Were the audiences mixed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I started comedy 2005, I want to say - yeah, 2005, 2004, somewhere there."}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 8, "text": "So what were some of the subjects that you talked about in your early comedy when you were first in front of diverse audiences?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yeah, the audiences - one thing South Africans rushed to do as soon as segregation came down is South Africans rushed to meet each other. You know, that was a beautiful thing about it, is that a "}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 9, "text": "So racial identity is a big part of your comedy when you're doing stand-up. Your father is white. Your mother is Black. Your father is, I think, of Swiss and German ancestry. Do I have that right?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2016 interview with Trevor Noah, shortly after he had begun hosting \"The Daily Show.\" Next week, he steps away from the Comedy Central TV franchise after s"}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 10, "text": "And your mother is Sosa (ph).", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he's Swiss. He's Swiss."}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 11, "text": "Thank you. I don't think I can do that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Xhosa."}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 12, "text": "And I know your mother was jailed - briefly, I hope - in South Africa, I assume...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Xhosa."}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 13, "text": "...For opposing apartheid, for doing some kind of dissenting action.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 14, "text": "Oh, that's why she was jailed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Well, the dissenting action was being with a white person and going into..."}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 15, "text": "Was the white person your father?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes."}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 16, "text": "Was he jailed for it, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, he was. Yeah. So - but that..."}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 17, "text": "So they couldn't live together. Where did they live? And where did you live?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no. No. White people didn't get jailed for that. That was - white people were warned and asked not to do it again. But then, if you were a Black person caught fraternizing across color boundar"}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 18, "text": "So describe what your neighborhood in Soweto was like when you were growing up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I lived with my mom. So the way it works in South Africa is you were allowed to downgrade. So, you know, you could go - you could almost forfeit your rights and then go live in an area that was "}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it was wonderful. It was electric. You know, it's - even today, Soweto is a - it's a beautiful community, you know? Everyone knows everybody's names. You know, there's a - there's just a sense of "}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 20, "text": "Were your parents still a couple when apartheid ended?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If everyone's suffering together, it doesn't seem so bad."}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 21, "text": "But there didn't need to be a charade anymore. Like what was the charade that you would have to enact when the family got together under apartheid?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No, no, they weren't. They weren't. I - well, I think they were - let me think. Actually, they were probably until I was maybe 10 or 11 years old. But they remained friends, I guess, because they "}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 22, "text": "So after your parents separated, your mother married a man who became the father of your two brothers. How old were you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, well, I wasn't enacting anything. I was a kid, so I was just - I was living my life. My mom would - she was - she went through very elaborate - you know, through very elaborate schemes. I mean, sh"}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 23, "text": "...When they married?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 24, "text": "So you've described him as becoming alcoholic and abusive. Did he abuse you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I was maybe 12 years old or 13. Yeah, maybe around there."}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 25, "text": "And what did he - he hit her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no, no. My mom was very protective of me, so I didn't suffer, you know, much of that. But I mean, a home that is terrorized by an abusive drunk is terrorized all the same. You know, I feel lik"}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 26, "text": "She left him, and then...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is - you know, it's widely documented, and it's something my mom raised me not to be ashamed to speak about because that was always the biggest thing she said was, we live in "}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 27, "text": "...Went with another man. And when he found out about this other man after he and your mother were divorced, he shot her twice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 28, "text": "In the face and in the back.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, well, my mom didn't leave to go to another man. So my mom completely left the home, moved out with my brothers. I was really out of the home at that time. And she went and set up a new life. And"}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 29, "text": "But she survived.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep, that's correct."}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 30, "text": "What kind of shape is she in now? Did she have a full recovery?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She did. She did."}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 31, "text": "Your book is called \"Born A Crime\" because you are officially the product of a crime. Your mother is Black. And your father is white - part Swiss, part German. And your book opens with the law, with a word-for-word version of the law that made that relationship illegal.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University, in for Terry Gross. We're listening back to our interviews with Trevor Noah, the host of Comedy Central's \""}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 32, "text": "It's the reason why your book is called \"Born A Crime.\" I want you to actually read the wording of this 1927 South African law.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 33, "text": "So how aware were you growing up that you were the product of a crime, and if people saw you, they might realize that your mother was officially guilty?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So this is the Immorality Act of 1927. (Reading) To prohibit illicit carnal intercourse between Europeans and natives and other acts in relation thereto. Be it enacted by the king's most excellent maj"}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 34, "text": "But that's not how it was in South Africa.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wasn't aware at all. And I was really lucky that I wasn't aware because I think that would've changed my childhood and my view on the world drastically. You know, I existed in a space where my mothe"}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 35, "text": "So how were you protected so that you were able to see yourself and your parents that way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Definitely, yeah."}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 36, "text": "Your mother was arrested several times during your childhood...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was just how my parents treated me. It was the world they decided to show me. I was really sheltered. My grandmother kept me locked in the house when I was staying, you know, with the family "}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 37, "text": "...During apartheid because of her relationship with your father, because they had carnal, sexual intercourse.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 38, "text": "And you were the product of that. So how much time would you estimate she actually spent in prison?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 39, "text": "I found it interesting that there were Black people who also hated your mother for having relations with a white man. You tell a story about being in a minibus, which basically functioned like a taxi...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was really lucky in that my mom and dad never got caught in the act, so to speak. So my mom was caught fraternizing with my dad. My mom was caught, you know, in the building that my father lived in."}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 40, "text": "...Because there were no taxis in the townships. So you're in a minibus. And the driver, realizing that you are your mother's son, you know, figures out that she must've had relations with a white man. And he starts calling her a whore.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 41, "text": "And she tells you, when the minibus slows down, you got to jump. And she, like, throws you out of the van. And you had an infant brother at the time. So she jumps out, holding him in such a way as to protect him when she jumps out. And then you had to hit the ground and run. But anyways - so it must have been totally bizarre to get that kind of hatred from Black people, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 42, "text": "Your mother sounds incredibly brave because she was always kind of flaunting the law when she married your stepfather, who's - they're separated now.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2016 interview with Trevor Noah, who has a new comedy special on Netflix and is stepping down next week as host of Comedy Central's \"The Daily \"Show\" after"}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 43, "text": "He wanted her to be, like, the traditional wife, and she refused to be that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yeah."}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 44, "text": "She - like you said, she just defied all conventions when she wanted to, and she talked back to people. I mean, she...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 45, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's funny you say that because I - when I wrote the book, I thought that I was the hero of my story. And in writing it, I came to realize, over time, that my mom was the hero and I was - you know, I "}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 46, "text": "Either in prison or in exile.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was lucky to come along for the ride. And she really is an amazing woman. And the world we lived in, in South Africa at the time, was a very matriarchal society because so many Black men had been re"}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 47, "text": "Because your mother is Black and your father was white and you were officially designated as colored...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Either in prison or in exile, or even sent off to work in the mines. And, you know - and so families were living separately from the fathers. And so although, according to African culture, men were th"}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 48, "text": "...In South Africa, wherever you were, you were the anomaly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 49, "text": "Yeah. And so it was always hard for you to figure out, like, where do you fit? And you seem to have learned so many ways of dealing with that including learning different languages and different dialects. So how many languages do you speak?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was."}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 50, "text": "Name them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I speak six currently."}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 51, "text": "And it sounds like this is something you picked up from your mother, who also spoke several languages...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I speak English obviously, Afrikaans, which is a derivative of Dutch that we have in South Africa. And then, I speak African languages. So I speak Zulu. I speak Xhosa. I speak Tswana. And I speak T"}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 52, "text": "...And used them in a very kind of cunning way when she needed to, to make sure that she wasn't, you know, imprisoned or - although she was imprisoned.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 53, "text": "But I mean, she got out of it sometimes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 54, "text": "Yeah, yeah. And so there's a passage from your book that I'd like you to read that's about how your mother used language and how you use language...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, but she got out of many situations, yeah."}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 55, "text": "...To help navigate difficult situations.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 56, "text": "That's Trevor Noah reading from his new memoir, \"Born A Crime.\" I like that passage so much in part because when I hear you on \"The Daily Show\" and on some of your stand-up comedy that I've heard on recording, you do accents and voices so well. Like, you can mimic other people really well. And it seems like that's something you learned to do out of self-preservation when you were young.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) Living with my mom, I saw how she used language to cross boundaries, handle situations, navigate the world. We were in a shop once. And the shopkeeper right in front of us turned to his secu"}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 57, "text": "I want to ask you another question about your life. We've talked about how race and being biracial affected you growing up in South Africa. You mentioned in the book that you had terrible acne as a teenager - like, really bad.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, definitely. I think it was something I inherited from my mother, who learned to do it. You know, I, like a baby duckling, was merely mimicking the survival traits that my mother possessed. And I"}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 58, "text": "OK. So that affects how people literally see you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 59, "text": "It covers your face. So people were already seeing you through a certain lens because of your race, you know, because of being biracial, and you didn't fit in any place as a result of that. How did having acne complicate your whole sense of identity?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 60, "text": "You mentioned that the medication led to depression. And in - The New York Times Sunday Book Review has a Q&A called \"By The Book.\" And you were interviewed for that. I think it was in that that you said - the question was, what books would you have that we would be surprised that you were reading? And you said self-help books about depression.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the one thing I was lucky - I feel I was lucky about is when this happened, I was in high school. And during the period I was in high school, race almost went out of the window because high scho"}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 61, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1140317706", "date": "2022-12-02", "guest": "Trevor Noah", "title": "Trevor Noah steps away from 'The Daily Show', embarks on new standup tour", "question_index": 62, "text": "Trevor Noah, thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That's one of the biggest things. And I'm proud to say that. That's another stigma that I think we need to get rid of is improving our minds and our mental health. You know, when you suffer from"}
{"id": "1141568738", "date": "2022-12-08", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "Chaos reigns at Twitter as Musk manages 'by whims'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I am Terry Gross. Ever since Elon Musk, the richest man in the world, bought Twitter for $44 billion in late April, Twitter has been in chaos. Musk has made and then withdrawn decisions including trying to retract his offer to buy Twitter. He's fired executives, cut the number of full-time employees in half, and then realized maybe he'd gone too far and tried to hire back some people he just terminated. He's floated ideas for subscription services and for charging a fee to verify that your account is really yours. But those ideas were met with widespread opposition. The number of content moderators has been slashed. Hate speech on Twitter has increased. Musk offered to reinstate Trump on Twitter after polling Twitter users about whether to do it. Some of the responders may have been bots. My guest, Casey Newton, says Musk has been remaking Twitter in his own image. Newton is an independent tech journalist who covers the intersection of technology and democracy for his newsletter, Platformer, which is hosted by Substack. He also co-hosts the tech podcast \"Hard Fork\" with New York Times tech journalist Kevin Roose. From 2013 until 2020, when Newton started Platformer, he reported on tech for The Verge. We recorded our interview yesterday. Casey Newton, welcome back to FRESH AIR. SpaceX and Tesla have been considered such big success stories, and credit has gone to Elon Musk. Twitter is showing a different side of him - indecisive, making decisions then retracting them. Twitter is losing money and advertisers under his leadership. He's making decisions that are driving away Twitter users. Are you surprised by what kind of leader he's turned out to be as the owner of Twitter?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1141568738", "date": "2022-12-08", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "Chaos reigns at Twitter as Musk manages 'by whims'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Do you think Twitter is starting to reflect Elon Musk's politics? And what are his politics?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I really am. I had not paid a lot of attention to what Musk was doing at Tesla and SpaceX, but as you note, he was having a lot of success with those companies. And the Twitter that he inher"}
{"id": "1141568738", "date": "2022-12-08", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "Chaos reigns at Twitter as Musk manages 'by whims'", "question_index": 2, "text": "So in terms of whether Twitter may now be reflecting Elon Musk's politics, Musk re-platformed over 60,000 people including Donald Trump, who used Twitter to, you know, say mistruths, disinformation. This is a person who wants to cancel part of the Constitution and who also was responsible for a lot of hate speech on Twitter. And then, you know, Musk re-platformed Kanye West in spite of Kanye West's antisemitism and then canceled the re-platforming in another kind of sudden change of mind. And of the 64,000 people or so that Elon Musk brought back to Twitter, people who had been canceled because of violations of Twitter rules including hate speech - you know, why would he want to bring back people who were responsible for hate speech? Hate speech is dangerous. It can really physically harm people. So how does that reflect, if at all, Musk's politics?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that in a lot of ways, he is a fairly conventional conservative. You know, he has adopted a lot of the views that have become mainstream among Republicans such as that social networks ar"}
{"id": "1141568738", "date": "2022-12-08", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "Chaos reigns at Twitter as Musk manages 'by whims'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Or harassing you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So what he has said about his view on this subject is that he believes that as long as you have not broken the law, you should effectively have unfettered access to social platforms, that - and this i"}
{"id": "1141568738", "date": "2022-12-08", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "Chaos reigns at Twitter as Musk manages 'by whims'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Hate speech has increased since Musk took over. Are you seeing that? Are you seeing examples of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, exactly, right? If somebody's harassing you, you want to get out of there. And what I think that Musk and some of these other, like, right-wing platform commentators are missing is that there's "}
{"id": "1141568738", "date": "2022-12-08", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "Chaos reigns at Twitter as Musk manages 'by whims'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Do you think Elon Musk's public image has totally changed, that he's seen now as being more indecisive and incompetent?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We have seen some studies that have said that. I would say that some analysts who I really respect have questioned the methodology of those accounts. And so I'm not willing to say definitively that we"}
{"id": "1141568738", "date": "2022-12-08", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "Chaos reigns at Twitter as Musk manages 'by whims'", "question_index": 6, "text": "You know, you reported - you've spoken to, you know, current and former Twitter employees and interviewed a Twitter engineer about his experiences working there and his experiences being laid off from there or terminated. And what you learned was that, you know, part of the engineering staff was asked to make, you know, a very technical presentation about how Twitter operates to Elon Musk. And they were kind of shocked about how little Musk really understood about the technical end of the operation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I really do. And, you know, I should say, I am somebody who, in a lot of ways, was really rooting for Elon Musk here. Twitter has had a history of mismanagement. You know, two CEOs ago, it h"}
{"id": "1141568738", "date": "2022-12-08", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "Chaos reigns at Twitter as Musk manages 'by whims'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Casey Newton, who writes about tech for his newsletter Platformer, which is hosted by Substack. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's right. You know, so something about Elon Musk is that he sort of worships at the altar of the engineer. And as soon as he took over Twitter, basically job one for him was to bring in a bu"}
{"id": "1141568738", "date": "2022-12-08", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "Chaos reigns at Twitter as Musk manages 'by whims'", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Casey Newton, who writes about the intersection of technology and democracy for his newsletter, Platformer, which is hosted by Substack. He's been reporting on the chaos at Twitter ever since Elon Musk bought it for $44 billion in late October. What's left of Twitter's staff? I think he fired about 20% of his full-time staff and 80% of contractors?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's right. You know, so something about Elon Musk is that he sort of worships at the altar of the engineer. And as soon as he took over Twitter, basically job one for him was to bring in a bu"}
{"id": "1141568738", "date": "2022-12-08", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "Chaos reigns at Twitter as Musk manages 'by whims'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well, you know, the first time you were on our show, you were talking about content moderators on Facebook and how many of them get PTSD because they're - these are the people who have to look at all the, like, beheading videos and the murder videos and all the most horrible videos that Facebook would be taking down 'cause they're making the decision about whether to take these down or not. And so, you know, it sounded like a really stressful job. What's left of content moderators now on Twitter? Because on the one hand, tens of thousands of Twitter users who were de-platformed, who were taken down from Twitter, have been reinstated by Musk. And, you know, a certain percentage of them - I don't know what percentage - were taken down because of hate speech, because of behavior that wasn't tolerated on Twitter. So you're adding people who are responsible for hate speech and you're firing people who are content moderators. So what's left of the content moderation crew?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The numbers were even higher than that. And it's happened in several rounds, so it's sort of hard to keep up. There was an initial cut of about 50% to the core full-time employees. Then, as you note, "}
{"id": "1141568738", "date": "2022-12-08", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "Chaos reigns at Twitter as Musk manages 'by whims'", "question_index": 10, "text": "You know, you describe what's happened at Twitter to employees as a purge. An engineer who you - a Twitter engineer who you interviewed was fired and got this email. We regret to inform you that your employment is terminated effective immediately. Your recent behavior has violated company policy. What was the violation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, you know, Twitter will not tell us how many content moderators it has left. The company no longer has a communications department. So, you know, we're - we reporters are all used to just, you know"}
{"id": "1141568738", "date": "2022-12-08", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "Chaos reigns at Twitter as Musk manages 'by whims'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Musk became obsessed with the idea that his employees might sabotage Twitter. Is that a sign - do you think that's a sign of paranoia or a legitimate concern?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this person didn't know because it wasn't clear what policy they were referring to. You know, one of the waves of people being let go happened as Elon and his associates noticed that Twitter wor"}
{"id": "1141568738", "date": "2022-12-08", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "Chaos reigns at Twitter as Musk manages 'by whims'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Are there employees who think that Musk is sabotaging Twitter in his attempt to blow it up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was mostly paranoia. You know, most of the folks who I've been speaking with at Twitter over the past couple of months cared about the service a lot. And, in fact, the reason why they were "}
{"id": "1141568738", "date": "2022-12-08", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "Chaos reigns at Twitter as Musk manages 'by whims'", "question_index": 13, "text": "And remake it, you know, and remake it his way? Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There are."}
{"id": "1141568738", "date": "2022-12-08", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "Chaos reigns at Twitter as Musk manages 'by whims'", "question_index": 14, "text": "So one of the changes that Musk told employees he was making was that they could no longer work remotely, that they had to come into the office. And I think a lot of employees were upset by that, particularly ones who might have, you know, taken the job with the understanding that they could stay at home and take care of, you know, children or parents or grandparents or whatever their reason was to want to work at home and that suddenly the ground rules were being changed. Now, a lot of offices changed their ground rules about working from home. But how did that go over at Twitter? And how did Musk respond to the negative reaction?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think - the employees I've spoken to believe that the motivation is likely more financial. You know, as you'll recall, he spent $44 billion on Twitter. Almost everyone agrees that that was way"}
{"id": "1141568738", "date": "2022-12-08", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "Chaos reigns at Twitter as Musk manages 'by whims'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well, let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Casey Newton, who reports on tech issues for his newsletter Platformer, which is hosted on Substack. We'll talk more about the chaos at Twitter ever since Elon Musk took over in late October after a break. I'm Terry Gross, And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, as you can imagine, this is an extraordinarily disruptive thing for people who had taken these jobs assuming that they would be able to work where ever they wanted to. So a lot of folk"}
{"id": "1141568738", "date": "2022-12-08", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "Chaos reigns at Twitter as Musk manages 'by whims'", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Casey Newton, who writes about the intersection of technology and democracy for his newsletter, Platformer, which is hosted by Substack. He also co-hosts the tech podcast \"Hard Fork\" with New York Times reporter Kevin Roose. Newton has been writing about the changes and the chaos at Twitter since Elon Musk bought it for $44 billion in late October. So is part of Elon Musk's goal in slashing the staff at Twitter by about 50% for full-time employees as part of the goal to, like, cut costs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, as you can imagine, this is an extraordinarily disruptive thing for people who had taken these jobs assuming that they would be able to work where ever they wanted to. So a lot of folk"}
{"id": "1141568738", "date": "2022-12-08", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "Chaos reigns at Twitter as Musk manages 'by whims'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Musk said that the financial situation at Twitter was dire, and the company could even go bankrupt. What's the upside of saying that publicly?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it is. He spent a lot of money on Twitter, and he needs to figure out how to make the site profitable. You know, for most of its history, Twitter has not been a profitable company, and it arguabl"}
{"id": "1141568738", "date": "2022-12-08", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "Chaos reigns at Twitter as Musk manages 'by whims'", "question_index": 18, "text": "One of Musk's strategies that seems to have backfired is dealing with verification. Can you describe what verification is and what Twitter's policy had been before Musk took over?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I wish I knew. I have since learned that he apparently has said a version of this at some of his other companies as well. He seems to like leaning on the drama of that a little bit to rally "}
{"id": "1141568738", "date": "2022-12-08", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "Chaos reigns at Twitter as Musk manages 'by whims'", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So Twitter started a verification policy in 2009, and the basic idea was that it needed a way to verify that the owner of an account was who they said it was. So if you were a politician, a jour"}
{"id": "1141568738", "date": "2022-12-08", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "Chaos reigns at Twitter as Musk manages 'by whims'", "question_index": 20, "text": "And one of the consequences of that was that he lost a lot of advertisers. Can you explain why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so there was two days of just absolute chaos on Twitter as people sort of raced to see how much fun they could have with this ridiculous new system, wherefore, predictably, he pulled the plug and "}
{"id": "1141568738", "date": "2022-12-08", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "Chaos reigns at Twitter as Musk manages 'by whims'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Twitter's largest brand advertiser is, or was, Apple. Apple pulled their advertising. Has Apple come back?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So advertisers are obsessed with what they call brand safety, which is basically just the idea that any of their ads are not going to appear next to something horrible, but also that they counte"}
{"id": "1141568738", "date": "2022-12-08", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "Chaos reigns at Twitter as Musk manages 'by whims'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Musk recently tweeted his thanks to returning advertisers. How many returned? And why did they return?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. So there was a summit between Tim Cook, the CEO of Apple, and Elon Musk a couple of days after Elon had started what seemed like a pretty unwise war against the company. And Elon Musk has since t"}
{"id": "1141568738", "date": "2022-12-08", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "Chaos reigns at Twitter as Musk manages 'by whims'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Well, let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Casey Newton, who writes about tech for his newsletter, Platformer, which is hosted by Substack. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm still trying to learn the answer to this question. I don't understand what has happened on Twitter in the past two weeks that would make any advertiser say now it feels safe. You still have all of"}
{"id": "1141568738", "date": "2022-12-08", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "Chaos reigns at Twitter as Musk manages 'by whims'", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Casey Newton, who writes about the intersection of technology and democracy for his newsletter, Platformer. He's been reporting on the chaos at Twitter ever since Elon Musk bought it in late October. So getting back to the idea that Musk is kind of blowing up Twitter to remake it his way, he's losing so much money in the process. I mean, other ways that he's losing money - 'cause you've pointed this out - is re-platforming people and making all these changes. They're really expensive. It requires a lot of engineering changes in order to make these changes on Twitter. Plus, there's no longer as many engineers there now. So it's almost like he's sabotaging himself in trying to remake Twitter.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm still trying to learn the answer to this question. I don't understand what has happened on Twitter in the past two weeks that would make any advertiser say now it feels safe. You still have all of"}
{"id": "1141568738", "date": "2022-12-08", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "Chaos reigns at Twitter as Musk manages 'by whims'", "question_index": 25, "text": "I'm wondering, like, did he ever announce projects and then, like, halt them or withdraw them at SpaceX or Tesla? Did he have a reputation for doing that there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think, you know, for some leaders, it's not a good idea unless they came up with it, right? And so people who worked at Twitter had all sorts of ideas about how you could improve the service, "}
{"id": "1141568738", "date": "2022-12-08", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "Chaos reigns at Twitter as Musk manages 'by whims'", "question_index": 26, "text": "You know, you also write that some CEOs are actually rooting for Musk. Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean, sort of the most famous one at Tesla is - Tesla has some autonomous driving capabilities. Elon calls it full self-driving even though, you know, automotive experts, I think, quibble with"}
{"id": "1141568738", "date": "2022-12-08", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "Chaos reigns at Twitter as Musk manages 'by whims'", "question_index": 27, "text": "You're still on Twitter, and you cover tech including Twitter. You have every reason to be on Twitter. So beyond your work as a journalist, why do you feel like you need Twitter?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, during the last decade, tech workers gained a lot of power, right? As the industry grew, engineers were in short supply, highly in demand, became very well compensated. And in order to"}
{"id": "1141568738", "date": "2022-12-08", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "Chaos reigns at Twitter as Musk manages 'by whims'", "question_index": 28, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, Twitter is really the only social network I ever felt like I was good at. You know, I think I'm not pretty enough for Instagram. I'm not a good enough dancer for TikTok."}
{"id": "1141568738", "date": "2022-12-08", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "Chaos reigns at Twitter as Musk manages 'by whims'", "question_index": 29, "text": "Do you think there's a chance that Twitter won't survive?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like, I work in text, and Twitter has just always been a great place for people who like to write sentences. I've often thought that it's the funniest social network. You know, people just wake up eve"}
{"id": "1141568738", "date": "2022-12-08", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "Chaos reigns at Twitter as Musk manages 'by whims'", "question_index": 30, "text": "You've also been writing about two cases that the Supreme Court will decide next year that you say could make life more difficult for tech platforms without doing much to address the harm that those platforms create. And this has to do with people who are suing platforms for saying that the platforms and what they posted encouraged terrorism and may have helped lead to terrorist attacks. In one case, the plaintiff's family member was killed in an ISIS attack. So tell us what the basic premise of these lawsuits are.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like, none of this seems like this is sustainable to me, you know? But at the same time, you know, Yahoo still exists. There are all sorts of websites from, you know, even the dot-com era that are sti"}
{"id": "1141568738", "date": "2022-12-08", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "Chaos reigns at Twitter as Musk manages 'by whims'", "question_index": 31, "text": "So I guess the question is a recommendation free speech? Is it a free speech issue?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So you know, in the United States, we have this important law, Section 230 of the Communications Decency Act. And it protects platforms from liability, in most cases, from what their users post."}
{"id": "1141568738", "date": "2022-12-08", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "Chaos reigns at Twitter as Musk manages 'by whims'", "question_index": 32, "text": "If the plaintiffs win and platforms like Google and YouTube are held responsible for recommending videos or text, that would be in conflict with laws in Florida and Texas that prevents social media platforms from taking down posts because of content. Can you explain the predicament that platforms would be in if the plaintiffs win the Supreme Court cases but a case comes up in Florida or Texas", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And, you know, I have spoken with First Amendment scholars who believe that recommendations are absolutely speech, and that it goes against our understanding of the First Amendment to suggest th"}
{"id": "1141568738", "date": "2022-12-08", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "Chaos reigns at Twitter as Musk manages 'by whims'", "question_index": 33, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And, you know, I have spoken with First Amendment scholars who believe that recommendations are absolutely speech, and that it goes against our understanding of the First Amendment to suggest th"}
{"id": "1141568738", "date": "2022-12-08", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "Chaos reigns at Twitter as Musk manages 'by whims'", "question_index": 34, "text": "Well, let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Casey Newton, who writes about tech for his newsletter, Platform. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And so these Florida and Texas laws that were passed this year essentially seek to make content moderation illegal. And this is very much in the Elon Musk school of thinking - right? - which is "}
{"id": "1141568738", "date": "2022-12-08", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "Chaos reigns at Twitter as Musk manages 'by whims'", "question_index": 35, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Casey Newton, who writes about the intersection of technology and democracy for his newsletter, Platformer, which is hosted by Substack. He's been reporting on the chaos at Twitter ever since Elon Musk bought it in late October. A related issue to the issue we've been talking about - about the responsibility of social media to have content moderation - TikTok is facing lawsuits about things like the blackout challenge. Would you describe what the blackout challenge is and what these lawsuits are saying?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And so these Florida and Texas laws that were passed this year essentially seek to make content moderation illegal. And this is very much in the Elon Musk school of thinking - right? - which is "}
{"id": "1141568738", "date": "2022-12-08", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "Chaos reigns at Twitter as Musk manages 'by whims'", "question_index": 36, "text": "So what's the state of these lawsuits now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So you know, this is a really dangerous stunt that's, you know, been around since I was a kid where kids will encourage one another to sort of use household objects to choke themselves unconscio"}
{"id": "1141568738", "date": "2022-12-08", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "Chaos reigns at Twitter as Musk manages 'by whims'", "question_index": 37, "text": "What's TikTok's approach to content moderation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They are in process. I think it's relatively early. And, you know, this will be one where the platform will say, because of Section 230, you can't sue us for what was on our platform. And one of the r"}
{"id": "1141568738", "date": "2022-12-08", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "Chaos reigns at Twitter as Musk manages 'by whims'", "question_index": 38, "text": "Since we spent a lot of time talking about Twitter, what do you want from social media now in 2022, going on 2023? And how different is that from what you wanted when you first started using Twitter and Facebook?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "TikTok moderates content quite aggressively, and I think it's probably fair to say that they moderate it more aggressively than any other platform. So one of the things that Bloomberg reported, which "}
{"id": "1141568738", "date": "2022-12-08", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "Chaos reigns at Twitter as Musk manages 'by whims'", "question_index": 39, "text": "Casey Newton, it's been a pleasure to talk with you again. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I love that question because it took me such a long time to figure out what my answer to it was. I think what I've decided is that I want the internet to be as good for everyone else as it h"}
{"id": "1141568738", "date": "2022-12-08", "guest": "Casey Newton", "title": "Chaos reigns at Twitter as Musk manages 'by whims'", "question_index": 40, "text": "Casey Newton reports on tech issues for his newsletter Platformer, which is hosted on Substack. If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, like this week's interviews with Mike White, the creator, writer and director of HBO's \"White Lotus,\" or with comic actor and screenwriter Kumail Nanjiani, who's now starring in \"Welcome To Chippendales,\" playing the founder of Chippendales, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. And don't forget the FRESH AIR newsletter, which comes out on Saturdays and gives you a look at what happened on the air and behind the scenes in the past week on our show. You can get it in your email by subscribing for free on our website, freshair.npr.org. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer as Molly Seavy-Nesper. Therese Madden directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks so much for having me."}
{"id": "1141860222", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "Neil Young", "title": "A documentary shows never-before-seen footage 50 years after Neil Young's 'Harvest'", "question_index": 0, "text": "You were in high school bands. Did you sing in those bands?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Neil Young has a new album produced by the legendary Rick Rubin, titled \"World Record.\" There's also a new 50th anniversary edition of his \"Harvest\" album. Neil Young joined his first band in Canada w"}
{"id": "1141860222", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "Neil Young", "title": "A documentary shows never-before-seen footage 50 years after Neil Young's 'Harvest'", "question_index": 1, "text": "\"Bright Lights, Big City.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "After the beginning, I did. I started as an instrumentalist. We used to do songs - instrumentals that I used to write, you know, melodies, and play them on the guitar, sort of like a group called The "}
{"id": "1141860222", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "Neil Young", "title": "A documentary shows never-before-seen footage 50 years after Neil Young's 'Harvest'", "question_index": 2, "text": "What do you mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1141860222", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "Neil Young", "title": "A documentary shows never-before-seen footage 50 years after Neil Young's 'Harvest'", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", as I was starting to sing. Of course, now I'm like, you know, Caruso or something."}
{"id": "1141860222", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "Neil Young", "title": "A documentary shows never-before-seen footage 50 years after Neil Young's 'Harvest'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Were you self-conscious about your voice when you started to sing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Got it down."}
{"id": "1141860222", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "Neil Young", "title": "A documentary shows never-before-seen footage 50 years after Neil Young's 'Harvest'", "question_index": 5, "text": "No one else in the band could sing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not really. I never really - I was just glad to be singing. I mean, we could do a lot more songs if I sang them."}
{"id": "1141860222", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "Neil Young", "title": "A documentary shows never-before-seen footage 50 years after Neil Young's 'Harvest'", "question_index": 6, "text": "No. Is it...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Not..."}
{"id": "1141860222", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "Neil Young", "title": "A documentary shows never-before-seen footage 50 years after Neil Young's 'Harvest'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Now, you say that you weren't self-conscious about your singing. But there are stories about how, you know, like, in your first solo album, you intentionally mixed yourself in the background.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nobody in the band. So we did harmony, and we did everything, you know? But it didn't matter."}
{"id": "1141860222", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "Neil Young", "title": "A documentary shows never-before-seen footage 50 years after Neil Young's 'Harvest'", "question_index": 8, "text": "So it wasn't self-consciousness that was behind that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I mixed myself right up there where I should be. And then, they tried out this new scientific process that they'd invented called the CSG Haeco cog (ph) process, which is this unbelievable thing w"}
{"id": "1141860222", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "Neil Young", "title": "A documentary shows never-before-seen footage 50 years after Neil Young's 'Harvest'", "question_index": 9, "text": "How did you feel about being in a tight harmony group like Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young? Did...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I could - look at the next record. I - my vocals is right up there."}
{"id": "1141860222", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "Neil Young", "title": "A documentary shows never-before-seen footage 50 years after Neil Young's 'Harvest'", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "How did they feel about it, that's the question."}
{"id": "1141860222", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "Neil Young", "title": "A documentary shows never-before-seen footage 50 years after Neil Young's 'Harvest'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Do you like being in a harmony like that? I mean, I love your voice. I consider it a very personal voice - do you know what I mean? - a voice that should be singing on its own more so than just, like, mixed in a harmony.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was no longer a tight harmony group."}
{"id": "1141860222", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "Neil Young", "title": "A documentary shows never-before-seen footage 50 years after Neil Young's 'Harvest'", "question_index": 12, "text": "What were the very first records you remember buying?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Neil Young speaking with Terry Gross in 1992. She spoke to him again in 2004 when another album, \"Prairie Wind,\" was released. As you can hear, Terry had a cold."}
{"id": "1141860222", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "Neil Young", "title": "A documentary shows never-before-seen footage 50 years after Neil Young's 'Harvest'", "question_index": 13, "text": "And when did you get your first guitar?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the first records that I - one of the earliest ones, I think, was all Jerry Lee Lewis records and Little Richard and those records. And then, about the late '50s - in early '50s, I bought, you k"}
{"id": "1141860222", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "Neil Young", "title": "A documentary shows never-before-seen footage 50 years after Neil Young's 'Harvest'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Why did he get you a ukulele as opposed to a guitar?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my dad brought me a ukulele. I guess I was around 8."}
{"id": "1141860222", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "Neil Young", "title": "A documentary shows never-before-seen footage 50 years after Neil Young's 'Harvest'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Oh, sure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's just small..."}
{"id": "1141860222", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "Neil Young", "title": "A documentary shows never-before-seen footage 50 years after Neil Young's 'Harvest'", "question_index": 16, "text": "Sure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Small enough for me."}
{"id": "1141860222", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "Neil Young", "title": "A documentary shows never-before-seen footage 50 years after Neil Young's 'Harvest'", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was just a little plastic Arthur Godfrey one. Then, he played it for me. And he's saying all these sad songs, you know, \"Bury Me Out On The Prairie\" and all of these ridiculous cowboy songs that he"}
{"id": "1141860222", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "Neil Young", "title": "A documentary shows never-before-seen footage 50 years after Neil Young's 'Harvest'", "question_index": 18, "text": "So when did you switch from ukulele to guitar?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He had them, in three-part harmony, singing background for him while he was singing. And he taught them all these things. It was amazing. And so my cousins all sang in, you know, harmony, you know?"}
{"id": "1141860222", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "Neil Young", "title": "A documentary shows never-before-seen footage 50 years after Neil Young's 'Harvest'", "question_index": 19, "text": "Did you get lessons on any of this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I got - like, after our ukulele, I got a thing called a banjo ukulele, which is - plays like a ukulele, but it looked like a banjo. I think it cost about 15 bucks. I got it for Christmas one yea"}
{"id": "1141860222", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "Neil Young", "title": "A documentary shows never-before-seen footage 50 years after Neil Young's 'Harvest'", "question_index": 20, "text": "Well, they took you a long way, I guess.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I got - I had two guitar lessons in 1962."}
{"id": "1141860222", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "Neil Young", "title": "A documentary shows never-before-seen footage 50 years after Neil Young's 'Harvest'", "question_index": 21, "text": "What'd you hate about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it took me a long time to get to the place where I had to take them. And I hated those lessons. I never could understand what they were trying to show me."}
{"id": "1141860222", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "Neil Young", "title": "A documentary shows never-before-seen footage 50 years after Neil Young's 'Harvest'", "question_index": 22, "text": "What'd you hate about the lessons?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't learn - I don't think I learned anything there."}
{"id": "1141860222", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "Neil Young", "title": "A documentary shows never-before-seen footage 50 years after Neil Young's 'Harvest'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Is it...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. I didn't remember. I tried to block it all out of my head. I don't even remember what they were trying to show me."}
{"id": "1141860222", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "Neil Young", "title": "A documentary shows never-before-seen footage 50 years after Neil Young's 'Harvest'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Are there any things that you taught yourself...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's one of those things I didn't enjoy that, luckily, my mind works such that now I don't remember any of it. I only remember walking in the door."}
{"id": "1141860222", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "Neil Young", "title": "A documentary shows never-before-seen footage 50 years after Neil Young's 'Harvest'", "question_index": 25, "text": "...That are officially wrong?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All gone."}
{"id": "1141860222", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "Neil Young", "title": "A documentary shows never-before-seen footage 50 years after Neil Young's 'Harvest'", "question_index": 26, "text": "Mmm hmm. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Yeah, sure - all kinds of things. I - officially wrong for guitar playing, you mean?"}
{"id": "1141860222", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "Neil Young", "title": "A documentary shows never-before-seen footage 50 years after Neil Young's 'Harvest'", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, playing out of tune is pretty wrong."}
{"id": "1141860222", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "Neil Young", "title": "A documentary shows never-before-seen footage 50 years after Neil Young's 'Harvest'", "question_index": 28, "text": "That's crazy. You play out of tune because you can't give up your armor.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do that regularly, and I will continue playing out of tune if I think it has some kind of a sound. And, you know, usually I'm - you know, my sound mixer, Tim Mulligan, has been working with me for a"}
{"id": "1141860222", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "Neil Young", "title": "A documentary shows never-before-seen footage 50 years after Neil Young's 'Harvest'", "question_index": 29, "text": "Your guitar playing just keeps evolving. And I mean, there's so many different voices and styles that you can use to such kind of dramatic and emotional effect. I'm wondering, do you think that that comes in part from always listening to new things, or is that not related? Is what you're playing not related to what's coming in as input?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. I try to keep it in tune. And, you know, I have a lot of ways of hiding being out of tune."}
{"id": "1141860222", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "Neil Young", "title": "A documentary shows never-before-seen footage 50 years after Neil Young's 'Harvest'", "question_index": 30, "text": "Now, do you want to stop thinking in a kind of meditative sense that it feels good and it's a kind of good state to be in to stop thinking? Or do you want to stop thinking because thinking interferes with playing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, guitar playing is - you know, I guess a metaphor for guitar playing would be deep earth mining or something. And you just keep banging away, blowing through and trying to get to the core and"}
{"id": "1141860222", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "Neil Young", "title": "A documentary shows never-before-seen footage 50 years after Neil Young's 'Harvest'", "question_index": 31, "text": "When you were younger, were you obsessive about technique? And did you get enough kind of technique through obsession that enabled you to, like, stop thinking and go for emotion?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2004 interview with Neil Young. His classic album, \"Harvest,\" is 50 years old now, and there's a new documentary about the recording of that album called \""}
{"id": "1141860222", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "Neil Young", "title": "A documentary shows never-before-seen footage 50 years after Neil Young's 'Harvest'", "question_index": 32, "text": "Now, can you compare that to singing? Is there a place vocally for you like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The first time, you know, I remember - maybe I was 17 or something. And I was playing. And, you know, I worked on things. I learned songs. I wrote a lot of instrumentals myself, and I'd practice them "}
{"id": "1141860222", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "Neil Young", "title": "A documentary shows never-before-seen footage 50 years after Neil Young's 'Harvest'", "question_index": 33, "text": "But I love your singing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, but I'm not a very good singer. And, you know, like, I don't have real good pitch control and especially have trouble singing freely. Like, I can sing a melody. And I can sing words. And I can p"}
{"id": "1141860222", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "Neil Young", "title": "A documentary shows never-before-seen footage 50 years after Neil Young's 'Harvest'", "question_index": 34, "text": "You know, I'm listening to your speaking voice and thinking about your singing voice and that, you know, you have a pretty big range singing. And you sing lower and you sing higher up. But your higher-up voice is, you know, considerably higher, I think, than most of your speaking voice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1141860222", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "Neil Young", "title": "A documentary shows never-before-seen footage 50 years after Neil Young's 'Harvest'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Some of the images that you've used today are so good, like your image about guitar playing and about, you know, going deeper down, just a really nice image. And I was wondering. I know your father was a writer, a sportswriter. And do you think you were influenced at all, language wise, being the son of a writer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I've been on the road here for the better part of a year, so - and I just finished a show last night, you know, about 150 miles away from here. And I did a show the night before that, about 300 "}
{"id": "1141860222", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "Neil Young", "title": "A documentary shows never-before-seen footage 50 years after Neil Young's 'Harvest'", "question_index": 36, "text": "Of course, there's your lyrics, too. I'm just thinking about hearing you talk. But, I mean, you've written, you know, written lyrics throughout your whole career.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think there's always that influence."}
{"id": "1141860222", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "Neil Young", "title": "A documentary shows never-before-seen footage 50 years after Neil Young's 'Harvest'", "question_index": 37, "text": "Fiction?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, my dad wrote a lot of stories. And he."}
{"id": "1141860222", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "Neil Young", "title": "A documentary shows never-before-seen footage 50 years after Neil Young's 'Harvest'", "question_index": 38, "text": "Neil Young, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, fiction and nonfiction. But he did write a lot of fiction. He used to try to write a little bit every day. And I'm not like that. I only try to write when I feel like writing. But if I feel like"}
{"id": "1141861528", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "We listen back to an interview with George Clooney, now a Kennedy Center Honoree", "question_index": 0, "text": "George Clooney, welcome to FRESH AIR. What did Edward R. Murrow mean to you when you were growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Fred) Who are the people? Are they elected? Are they appointed? Do they have an axe to grind? Is it you, sir?"}
{"id": "1141861528", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "We listen back to an interview with George Clooney, now a Kennedy Center Honoree", "question_index": 1, "text": "Now, in the movie, you don't have an actor playing McCarthy. The only time we see McCarthy is through his actual videotapes, through his television appearances...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My father was an anchorman and still writes for the newspaper in Kentucky. And broadcast journalism was a big part of our lives growing up. I spent most of my life as a small child on the floor of WKR"}
{"id": "1141861528", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "We listen back to an interview with George Clooney, now a Kennedy Center Honoree", "question_index": 2, "text": "...Such as, you know, the hearings and the videotape that was made for the Edward R. Murrow See It Now broadcast.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1141861528", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "We listen back to an interview with George Clooney, now a Kennedy Center Honoree", "question_index": 3, "text": "Why did you choose to have him play himself instead of having an actor portray him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1141861528", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "We listen back to an interview with George Clooney, now a Kennedy Center Honoree", "question_index": 4, "text": "Now, as an actor and director, talk a little bit about how Murrow looks on TV compared to how McCarthy looks on TV.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in the film, in the actual story - and we researched everything. I had to treat this like a journalist. I talked to my father about this. And he said, look; if you get anything wrong, you'll be "}
{"id": "1141861528", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "We listen back to an interview with George Clooney, now a Kennedy Center Honoree", "question_index": 5, "text": "Yeah. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's sort of the beauty of it. It's - in a way, the other one of those versions would be Kennedy-Nixon debates, you know..."}
{"id": "1141861528", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "We listen back to an interview with George Clooney, now a Kennedy Center Honoree", "question_index": 6, "text": "He's drunk.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Where the simple truth was, McCarthy was pretty good at a 30-second soundbite where he could yell and scare people and talk about death and bombs and things like that. But he wasn't handsome. And h"}
{"id": "1141861528", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "We listen back to an interview with George Clooney, now a Kennedy Center Honoree", "question_index": 7, "text": "What did you have to do with the rest of the film to make it consistent with the real video that you had of McCarthy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, very drunk. When you see the rebuttal, it's embarrassing. I mean, it's the most unprofessional thing you've ever seen. So it was an interesting - the moment that that happened was when they "}
{"id": "1141861528", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "We listen back to an interview with George Clooney, now a Kennedy Center Honoree", "question_index": 8, "text": "When you were growing up, your father was on TV. He had his own show. He was a news anchor. Was your - did your father seem like a different person on camera and off?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the interesting thing was we weren't trying to \"Forrest Gump\" it. We weren't trying to make it look as if both of those things were happening. We weren't trying to match film stock or anything s"}
{"id": "1141861528", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "We listen back to an interview with George Clooney, now a Kennedy Center Honoree", "question_index": 9, "text": "What would he do when he made a scene?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No, no. Not really. My father's - I think one of his great qualities is that integrity has been sort of the thing that has always lasted and has lasted into his - well into his 70s. He's been the "}
{"id": "1141861528", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "We listen back to an interview with George Clooney, now a Kennedy Center Honoree", "question_index": 10, "text": "Your mother was a state beauty pageant winner.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, he'd get up and say, you know, you're an idiot. And how could you say something like that? And, you know, are you from the 1500s? And, you know, he would make a big scene. And I at times wished th"}
{"id": "1141861528", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "We listen back to an interview with George Clooney, now a Kennedy Center Honoree", "question_index": 11, "text": "OK. One of the things you've been admired for in your career is your looks - just one of the many things. What did she teach you about the relative value of being attractive?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was Miss Lexington and she was in the Miss Kentucky - first runner-up in the Miss Kentucky pageant."}
{"id": "1141861528", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "We listen back to an interview with George Clooney, now a Kennedy Center Honoree", "question_index": 12, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I suppose the only thing she ever taught was by example, which was that she, you know, she went to work every day and worked very hard. And you never felt as if she was using her looks to gain an uppe"}
{"id": "1141861528", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "We listen back to an interview with George Clooney, now a Kennedy Center Honoree", "question_index": 13, "text": "Yeah, yeah, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...In school. So actually, it's sort of a - it's a hard answer to answer..."}
{"id": "1141861528", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "We listen back to an interview with George Clooney, now a Kennedy Center Honoree", "question_index": 14, "text": "You grew up on a - well, your grandparents had a tobacco farm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Without sounding sort of like a jerk."}
{"id": "1141861528", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "We listen back to an interview with George Clooney, now a Kennedy Center Honoree", "question_index": 15, "text": "So were you near that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "1141861528", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "We listen back to an interview with George Clooney, now a Kennedy Center Honoree", "question_index": 16, "text": "One of the many things I really like about your film is the performance by Dianne Reeves, the singer in it. And the music director for your film is Allen Sviridoff, who had been the music director for your aunt Rosemary Clooney...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2005 interview with George Clooney, who last Sunday was a recipient at this year's Kennedy Center Honors."}
{"id": "1141861528", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "We listen back to an interview with George Clooney, now a Kennedy Center Honoree", "question_index": 17, "text": "...Who I'm an enormous fan of. I love her recordings. What did her music mean to you when you were growing up? It was not your generation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1141861528", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "We listen back to an interview with George Clooney, now a Kennedy Center Honoree", "question_index": 18, "text": "It wasn't my generation either.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, but I was one of those weird kids, you know. I was listening to..."}
{"id": "1141861528", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "We listen back to an interview with George Clooney, now a Kennedy Center Honoree", "question_index": 19, "text": "Were you on the road with Rosemary Clooney?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, that's right. Well, I was listening to Led Zeppelin, and I was listening to Nat Cole. You know, I had a very varied growing up because I was on the road with, you know, with them a lot, or I was a"}
{"id": "1141861528", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "We listen back to an interview with George Clooney, now a Kennedy Center Honoree", "question_index": 20, "text": "Oh, no, I mean, with Led Zeppelin? Wait. Who were you on tour with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1141861528", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "We listen back to an interview with George Clooney, now a Kennedy Center Honoree", "question_index": 21, "text": "Sorry.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, exactly."}
{"id": "1141861528", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "We listen back to an interview with George Clooney, now a Kennedy Center Honoree", "question_index": 22, "text": "Oh, you were - oh, right. I see. Yeah, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "With Led Zeppelin. No, I was on the road - when I was 20, I was Rosemary's driver, you know?"}
{"id": "1141861528", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "We listen back to an interview with George Clooney, now a Kennedy Center Honoree", "question_index": 23, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I spent - I was around that kind of music a lot."}
{"id": "1141861528", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "We listen back to an interview with George Clooney, now a Kennedy Center Honoree", "question_index": 24, "text": "I see. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I got to appreciate Cole Porter and Johnny Mercer."}
{"id": "1141861528", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "We listen back to an interview with George Clooney, now a Kennedy Center Honoree", "question_index": 25, "text": "I know exactly what she was talking about, too, because her voice was basically shot in the last couple of recordings she made. But her phrasing was so beautiful and the emotion was so beautifully conveyed in it. When...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had a real appreciation of those guys - Sinatra and, you know, Nat King Cole especially, and Rosemary. And Rosemary was having - excuse me - she was having her comeback at that point. And her comeba"}
{"id": "1141861528", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "We listen back to an interview with George Clooney, now a Kennedy Center Honoree", "question_index": 26, "text": "You stayed with your aunt when you first got to Hollywood, and it sounds like she threw you out after a while.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When you see her taking songs that are normally sort of up-tempo, like \"Don't Fence Me In\" or - and bringing it down to like a quarter of the speed and singing, you know, \"Straighten Up and Fly Right,"}
{"id": "1141861528", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "We listen back to an interview with George Clooney, now a Kennedy Center Honoree", "question_index": 27, "text": "How come?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Pretty much, yeah. I understand that. I would have thrown me out too."}
{"id": "1141861528", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "We listen back to an interview with George Clooney, now a Kennedy Center Honoree", "question_index": 28, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think at some point, you don't need a 22-year-old kid hanging around in your house anymore. I'm sure I was a pain. You know, at some point, I'm sure, you know, the idea of offering your nephew"}
{"id": "1141861528", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "We listen back to an interview with George Clooney, now a Kennedy Center Honoree", "question_index": 29, "text": "Yeah. Did you think you were talented when you started working? Did you think you actually had something?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...But I think it comes back to haunt you after about a year, you know?"}
{"id": "1141861528", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "We listen back to an interview with George Clooney, now a Kennedy Center Honoree", "question_index": 30, "text": "My guest is George Clooney. He became famous for his role on \"ER\" as Dr. Douglas Ross. Here's a scene from the 1994 pilot. He's in the ER examining an infant. He suspects the baby has been abused by his mother, who's also in the room.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't really know whether I had any talent or not. I knew that I was, for the first time in my life, engaged. And I hadn't been. I was sort of the - I was one of those guys who was pretty good at a"}
{"id": "1141861528", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "We listen back to an interview with George Clooney, now a Kennedy Center Honoree", "question_index": 31, "text": "UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character, crying). UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character) Look. He's still crying. Why aren't you giving him something?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't really know whether I had any talent or not. I knew that I was, for the first time in my life, engaged. And I hadn't been. I was sort of the - I was one of those guys who was pretty good at a"}
{"id": "1141861528", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "We listen back to an interview with George Clooney, now a Kennedy Center Honoree", "question_index": 32, "text": "Well, \"ER\" - when you got \"ER,\" that certainly must have changed your life a lot.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Doug Ross) How dare you treat your child like this. He's a little kid. I try to be understanding in my job. But, lady, this just stinks."}
{"id": "1141861528", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "We listen back to an interview with George Clooney, now a Kennedy Center Honoree", "question_index": 33, "text": "I mean, suddenly, you were a star. And people become so close to you when you're on TV every week.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "1141861528", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "We listen back to an interview with George Clooney, now a Kennedy Center Honoree", "question_index": 34, "text": "It's - there's this kind of bonding that I think people go through.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1141861528", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "We listen back to an interview with George Clooney, now a Kennedy Center Honoree", "question_index": 35, "text": "You knew something about fame. You know, your father was on TV. Rosemary Clooney, your aunt, was incredibly famous. But what surprised you most when it happened to you? What were you unprepared for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's an unusual experience because it's not like being a movie star. You haven't paid 10 bucks, and you're 30 feet high, and you've made it a date. You've been in their homes every Thursday. So,"}
{"id": "1141861528", "date": "2022-12-09", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "We listen back to an interview with George Clooney, now a Kennedy Center Honoree", "question_index": 36, "text": "I want to thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's a funny thing. There isn't a real fame school that you can go to and learn, you know? I had - probably, if there was anybody, there's - I haven't met many people better prepared for it beca"}
{"id": "1142768079", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Mallori Johnson", "title": "Pioneering writer Octavia Butler on writing Black people and women into sci-fi", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. In the new TV series \"Kindred,\" a young Black woman gets transported back in time from the present day to the era of slavery. The series, which is now on Hulu, is based on the novel by the acclaimed late science fiction writer Octavia Butler. We'll hear an interview with her from our archive. But first, we have a review of the new series, which our critic-at-large, John Powers, says nicely captures Butler's knack for juggling painful realities and hope.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1142768079", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Mallori Johnson", "title": "Pioneering writer Octavia Butler on writing Black people and women into sci-fi", "question_index": 1, "text": "John Powers reviewed the new series \"Kindred,\" which is now streaming on Hulu. It was adapted from a novel by Octavia Butler, who died in 2006 at the age of 58, but now seems even more popular than ever. We're going to hear the interview I recorded with her in 1993, after the publication of her novel \"Parable Of The Sower,\" which made it onto the New York Times bestseller list in 2020. That's 27 years after its original publication. She won the genre's highest honors, two Hugo Awards and two Nebula Awards. She was a feminist and used science fiction to write about racial conflict, power, sexual and gender identity and climate change. In The New York Times, she was described as having laid the groundwork for the Afrofuturist movement before the term even existed.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The craziness is just beginning. Not only does Dana keep falling into the past for longer and longer periods, she pulls Kevin along with her. They find themselves in a plantation owned by Rufus's fath"}
{"id": "1142768079", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Mallori Johnson", "title": "Pioneering writer Octavia Butler on writing Black people and women into sci-fi", "question_index": 2, "text": "You're one of the few African Americans and one of the fewer African American women writing in the genre of science fiction. What speaks to you about the genre?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The craziness is just beginning. Not only does Dana keep falling into the past for longer and longer periods, she pulls Kevin along with her. They find themselves in a plantation owned by Rufus's fath"}
{"id": "1142768079", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Mallori Johnson", "title": "Pioneering writer Octavia Butler on writing Black people and women into sci-fi", "question_index": 3, "text": "As a woman and as an African American, are there things that bothered you about the science fiction books that you read when you were first starting to read them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I write science fiction because, first of all, I like it. I always liked it. When I was a kid, I read it and enjoyed it. And it was one of the first things that I began writing. I also write it becaus"}
{"id": "1142768079", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Mallori Johnson", "title": "Pioneering writer Octavia Butler on writing Black people and women into sci-fi", "question_index": 4, "text": "Yeah, right. Right. And I don't know if this is just true of a certain type of science fiction movie and TV show, but it always seemed that when a lot of - when a type of male writer looked into the future, what he saw was women wearing a lot less with a lot more cleavage.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I wasn't in them."}
{"id": "1142768079", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Mallori Johnson", "title": "Pioneering writer Octavia Butler on writing Black people and women into sci-fi", "question_index": 5, "text": "We're talking empathy here, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Yeah. I read a lot of science fiction as a kid. And, of course, that meant reading boys books because that's what kids' science fiction was. I made up my own stories to put myself in them. I wo"}
{"id": "1142768079", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Mallori Johnson", "title": "Pioneering writer Octavia Butler on writing Black people and women into sci-fi", "question_index": 6, "text": "When you entered the science fiction genre, were there a lot of women? Were there a lot of African Americans reading science fiction? And did your publisher worry about your books finding an actual market?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1142768079", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Mallori Johnson", "title": "Pioneering writer Octavia Butler on writing Black people and women into sci-fi", "question_index": 7, "text": "So how was it finally sold?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I got into science fiction, I sold my first three books without an agent and with no particular connections. I just mailed them in over the transom So nobody knew who I was and nobody knew I was "}
{"id": "1142768079", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Mallori Johnson", "title": "Pioneering writer Octavia Butler on writing Black people and women into sci-fi", "question_index": 8, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded with Octavia Butler in 1993 after the publication of her novel \"Parable Of The Sower.\" That novel is set in Southern California and begins in the year 2024. That seemed like a long time ago when we spoke. Butler envisioned a dystopian future society ravaged by climate change and economic inequality. Here's how she described the world she portrayed in the novel.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was sold as a trade book, mainstream fiction and pretty much ignored for a while, I guess. When Beacon Press brought it back, it all of a sudden began to get a lot of the attention that I'd hoped i"}
{"id": "1142768079", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Mallori Johnson", "title": "Pioneering writer Octavia Butler on writing Black people and women into sci-fi", "question_index": 9, "text": "There's a lot of arsonists in this society that you've created.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's grim. All the things that I can see going wrong now - well, not all of them, but a good many of them have continued to go wrong. In 2025, for instance, the things that work best are the tax syste"}
{"id": "1142768079", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Mallori Johnson", "title": "Pioneering writer Octavia Butler on writing Black people and women into sci-fi", "question_index": 10, "text": "There's a paragraph about arson that I'd like to read - I'd like you to read from your novel.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One of the things I've done is create a drug that makes people watch fire and get a sexual high from it. And naturally, this causes a lot of arson."}
{"id": "1142768079", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Mallori Johnson", "title": "Pioneering writer Octavia Butler on writing Black people and women into sci-fi", "question_index": 11, "text": "People create fires in your novel, in part to get people out of their homes so the arsonist can steal everything from the home while the people have run out. How did you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) It's Christmas Eve. Last night, someone set fire to the Payne-Parrish house. While the community tried to put out the fire and then tried to keep it from spreading, three other houses were r"}
{"id": "1142768079", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Mallori Johnson", "title": "Pioneering writer Octavia Butler on writing Black people and women into sci-fi", "question_index": 12, "text": "In the neighboring homes, right. Yes. So how did you get this idea of arson?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of the neighboring homes, in particular."}
{"id": "1142768079", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Mallori Johnson", "title": "Pioneering writer Octavia Butler on writing Black people and women into sci-fi", "question_index": 13, "text": "I wasn't, but that's not a bad question.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I suspect you're asking if it came from the riots. Is that what you were thinking about?"}
{"id": "1142768079", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Mallori Johnson", "title": "Pioneering writer Octavia Butler on writing Black people and women into sci-fi", "question_index": 14, "text": "The main character in your novel has what you've called hyper-empathy. In other words, she experiences other people's pain...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. Yeah, because I've been asked that several times. And the truth is, I've been working on this novel for about four years. I worked at it for three years trying to write it. And finally, during 199"}
{"id": "1142768079", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Mallori Johnson", "title": "Pioneering writer Octavia Butler on writing Black people and women into sci-fi", "question_index": 15, "text": "As though it were her own. So in this very violent society, every time she's in proximity to somebody who has a gunshot wound or a stabbing wound, she feels that pain as if she had been shot or stabbed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As though it were her own."}
{"id": "1142768079", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Mallori Johnson", "title": "Pioneering writer Octavia Butler on writing Black people and women into sci-fi", "question_index": 16, "text": "I think part of what you're trying to say with this hyper-empathy is that if people really felt other people's pain, we couldn't possibly live in a violent society. It would hurt too much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But what - I wanted to make sure that I wrote a novel in which everything that happened actually could happen. So none of this is parapsychological. There's no telepathy or anything involved. It's del"}
{"id": "1142768079", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Mallori Johnson", "title": "Pioneering writer Octavia Butler on writing Black people and women into sci-fi", "question_index": 17, "text": "My interview with Octavia Butler was recorded in 1993. Her novel \"Kindred\" has been adapted into a miniseries, which is streaming on Hulu. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thought so. When I began writing the book, I honestly thought that was what I was going to wind up doing. I thought hyper-empathy was something that I would find some way to spread to other people. "}
{"id": "1142768079", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Mallori Johnson", "title": "Pioneering writer Octavia Butler on writing Black people and women into sci-fi", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with the late science fiction writer Octavia Butler. Her novel \"Kindred\" has been adapted into a miniseries that's now streaming on Hulu. I spoke with her in 1993.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thought so. When I began writing the book, I honestly thought that was what I was going to wind up doing. I thought hyper-empathy was something that I would find some way to spread to other people. "}
{"id": "1142768079", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Mallori Johnson", "title": "Pioneering writer Octavia Butler on writing Black people and women into sci-fi", "question_index": 19, "text": "You once said that you needed your fantasies when you were young to shield you from the world. What was especially bad about the world when you were growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thought so. When I began writing the book, I honestly thought that was what I was going to wind up doing. I thought hyper-empathy was something that I would find some way to spread to other people. "}
{"id": "1142768079", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Mallori Johnson", "title": "Pioneering writer Octavia Butler on writing Black people and women into sci-fi", "question_index": 20, "text": "That's sometimes a hard pattern to change.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think because my mother and her brothers and sisters grew up during the Depression and actually did know times when there was no food and when they were just about on the street, they had the idea t"}
{"id": "1142768079", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Mallori Johnson", "title": "Pioneering writer Octavia Butler on writing Black people and women into sci-fi", "question_index": 21, "text": "But, you know, writing must have seemed like a real long shot because...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was an only child, and I was, I guess, you could say, very much my own person. I kind of constructed my own world as I went along. I'd never really - I accepted the idea that you had to work for a l"}
{"id": "1142768079", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Mallori Johnson", "title": "Pioneering writer Octavia Butler on writing Black people and women into sci-fi", "question_index": 22, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, gosh. Yeah."}
{"id": "1142768079", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Mallori Johnson", "title": "Pioneering writer Octavia Butler on writing Black people and women into sci-fi", "question_index": 23, "text": "When you were young and started writing stories, were the adults ever worried about you because of the kinds of stories you were caught up in? Did they seem unhealthy for a child?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Everybody in the family said, oh, you can write in your spare time, and you can, you know, write as a hobby, whatever. But the idea of writing for a living was completely alien."}
{"id": "1142768079", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Mallori Johnson", "title": "Pioneering writer Octavia Butler on writing Black people and women into sci-fi", "question_index": 24, "text": "Oh, wow", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We - my mother, at one point, took in elderly roomers. And I can remember telling them stories. And one of them in particular, my favorite old woman, she used to be a carnival mentalist. And I kind of"}
{"id": "1142768079", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Mallori Johnson", "title": "Pioneering writer Octavia Butler on writing Black people and women into sci-fi", "question_index": 25, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We - my mother, at one point, took in elderly roomers. And I can remember telling them stories. And one of them in particular, my favorite old woman, she used to be a carnival mentalist. And I kind of"}
{"id": "1142768079", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Mallori Johnson", "title": "Pioneering writer Octavia Butler on writing Black people and women into sci-fi", "question_index": 26, "text": "Well, tell me more about this carnival mentalist. Did she use a lot of trickery?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I adopted her as a kind of stepgrandmother even though we were not related at all. My mother took in older people who weren't quite ready for the nursing home but who didn't want to live alone a"}
{"id": "1142768079", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Mallori Johnson", "title": "Pioneering writer Octavia Butler on writing Black people and women into sci-fi", "question_index": 27, "text": "Did she give you things to worry about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was a wonderful old lady. She used to scare the heck out of me. She could do - no, I never knew her to use any trickery at all. She was just - she knew people. She'd been alive for a long time. Sh"}
{"id": "1142768079", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Mallori Johnson", "title": "Pioneering writer Octavia Butler on writing Black people and women into sci-fi", "question_index": 28, "text": "Now, she was the one who thought that you were maybe too taken up with the stories, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Only if I annoyed her, which I tended to do 'cause I liked her, and I would kind of hang around and talk too much."}
{"id": "1142768079", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Mallori Johnson", "title": "Pioneering writer Octavia Butler on writing Black people and women into sci-fi", "question_index": 29, "text": "Did that scare you? Did you think maybe you were?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm hmm. Mmm hmm."}
{"id": "1142768079", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Mallori Johnson", "title": "Pioneering writer Octavia Butler on writing Black people and women into sci-fi", "question_index": 30, "text": "My interview with Octavia Butler was recorded in 1993. We'll hear an interview from our archive with a pioneer of lesbian fiction who died last month, Marijane Meaker, after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No. No, not at all. No, I probably shouldn't have had - I didn't have confidence in myself in social situations. But I was confident within myself that I knew what was real, which is probably an a"}
{"id": "1142786089", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "Remembering Marijane Meaker, a pioneer of lesbian pulp fiction", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. She launched the genre of lesbian pulp fiction. That's how last weekend's New York Times obit described Marijane Meaker, referring to her 1952 novel, \"Spring Fire.\" Meaker was 95. She wrote \"Spring Fire\" under the pen name Vin Packer, which was one of several pen names she used. Under the name M.E. Kerr, she wrote young adult novels for which she received a 1993 award from the Young Adult Library Services Association for being, quote, \"a pioneer in realistic fiction for teenagers.\" In nonfiction books, under the name Ann Aldrich, she wrote about lesbian life in Greenwich Village. I spoke with her in 2003 after she published a memoir under her own name. It was about her two-year romance with Patricia Highsmith, who is best known for her novels \"Strangers On A Train,\" which was adapted into a film by Alfred Hitchcock, and \"The Talented Mr. Ripley,\" which was adapted into a film starring Matt Damon. That memoir is also about lesbian culture of the 1950s. We began with Meaker reading from the opening of the book.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1142786089", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "Remembering Marijane Meaker, a pioneer of lesbian pulp fiction", "question_index": 1, "text": "Marijane Meaker, what did Patricia Highsmith mean to you before you actually met her at this bar?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) L's was on a little side street in Greenwich Village - a dark, cozy lesbian bar. It was the beginning of graciousness in the lesbian bar world. There was no evidence of Mafia ownership - no "}
{"id": "1142786089", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "Remembering Marijane Meaker, a pioneer of lesbian pulp fiction", "question_index": 2, "text": "You were both popular writers. Who was more out at the time, and were you out in different ways?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in the '50s, in the early '50s, we used to play a game of truth. And I remember one night, the question was, if you could be anyone besides yourself, a living person, who would you choose to be?"}
{"id": "1142786089", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "Remembering Marijane Meaker, a pioneer of lesbian pulp fiction", "question_index": 3, "text": "Let's talk more about your life. First of all, when you realized that it was girls, not boys, that you were attracted to, had you ever heard the word lesbian or heard...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was far more out. I was politically active, and I was interested in the new movement for gay rights, and - in New York. She was not at all interested in anything like that. She wasn't interested in "}
{"id": "1142786089", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "Remembering Marijane Meaker, a pioneer of lesbian pulp fiction", "question_index": 4, "text": "...That there was such a thing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes."}
{"id": "1142786089", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "Remembering Marijane Meaker, a pioneer of lesbian pulp fiction", "question_index": 5, "text": "I'm sure you didn't tell your parents, hey, I've heard that there's a lesbian underground...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. I went to boarding school deliberately because I wanted to find out about this world that I knew I was part of. And I had read that boarding schools were filled with perversion. So I was very"}
{"id": "1142786089", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "Remembering Marijane Meaker, a pioneer of lesbian pulp fiction", "question_index": 6, "text": "...In a boarding school.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "1142786089", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "Remembering Marijane Meaker, a pioneer of lesbian pulp fiction", "question_index": 7, "text": "Now, you were among the first lesbian pulp novelists. You wrote for Gold Medal, which is famous, among other things...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. And I must say, for - just to save the school's reputation, that I seemed to be the only one that stayed at the dance in my class. Because I notice everybody else is married and has children and h"}
{"id": "1142786089", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "Remembering Marijane Meaker, a pioneer of lesbian pulp fiction", "question_index": 8, "text": "...For first publishing original paperbacks. In other words, these were books that were never in hardcover. And most of these...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1142786089", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "Remembering Marijane Meaker, a pioneer of lesbian pulp fiction", "question_index": 9, "text": "...Were pulp novels that were, you know, crime novels and sex-oriented novels. How did you end up writing lesbian pulp fiction for Gold Medal?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "1142786089", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "Remembering Marijane Meaker, a pioneer of lesbian pulp fiction", "question_index": 10, "text": "Sure. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first of all, pulp isn't really - I know everybody calls it pulp. I call it paperback. Pulp, to me, were the pulp - wonderful pulp magazines that paid a penny a word."}
{"id": "1142786089", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "Remembering Marijane Meaker, a pioneer of lesbian pulp fiction", "question_index": 11, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that was pulp."}
{"id": "1142786089", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "Remembering Marijane Meaker, a pioneer of lesbian pulp fiction", "question_index": 12, "text": "How did you write \"Spring Fire,\" your first lesbian paperback?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But now it's become pulp. You must remember that these paperback writers were very well paid, far better paid than you would be in hardcover. And so you had writers like John McDonald, Day Keene, Char"}
{"id": "1142786089", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "Remembering Marijane Meaker, a pioneer of lesbian pulp fiction", "question_index": 13, "text": "You sold 1 1/2 million copies, if what I read is correct.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I became friendly with the editor, Dick Carroll, and he said, if you had a story to write, what would you write about? And I said, well, I just came from college. And before that I was in boarding sch"}
{"id": "1142786089", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "Remembering Marijane Meaker, a pioneer of lesbian pulp fiction", "question_index": 14, "text": "We're listening to my 2003 interview with Marijane Meaker, who died last month. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Many, many. Yes, it went into many, many reprints."}
{"id": "1142786089", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "Remembering Marijane Meaker, a pioneer of lesbian pulp fiction", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 2003 interview with a pioneering writer of lesbian fiction, Marijane Meaker. She died last month at the age of 95. Her 1952 novel, \"Spring Fire,\" was one of the first paperback originals to deal with a lesbian theme. It sold about 1 1/2 million copies. Its success led to the publication of many more lesbian-themed paperbacks, including more by Meaker. She wrote \"Spring Fire\" under the pen name Vin Packer. It was published by Gold Medal Books.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Many, many. Yes, it went into many, many reprints."}
{"id": "1142786089", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "Remembering Marijane Meaker, a pioneer of lesbian pulp fiction", "question_index": 16, "text": "Now, one of the things your editor told you at Gold Medal was that you had to have a happy ending to this lesbian novel. Why? Why did you need that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Many, many. Yes, it went into many, many reprints."}
{"id": "1142786089", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "Remembering Marijane Meaker, a pioneer of lesbian pulp fiction", "question_index": 17, "text": "Well, in fact, you brought one of your novels with you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, because these paperbacks went through the mail, and the mail censored things. And if there was anything that seemed to proselytize for a vice like lesbianism, why, then they would junk the whole "}
{"id": "1142786089", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "Remembering Marijane Meaker, a pioneer of lesbian pulp fiction", "question_index": 18, "text": "...The first one, \"Spring Fire.\" Can you read the happy ending for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1142786089", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "Remembering Marijane Meaker, a pioneer of lesbian pulp fiction", "question_index": 19, "text": "So she has a kind of, like, heterosexual awakening at the end?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Here's the happy ending. She's just left to her psychoanalyst or psychiatrist's office, Susan. And she is - and he is saying - (reading) Dr. Peters lingered in the hall near the door as Susan Mitchell"}
{"id": "1142786089", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "Remembering Marijane Meaker, a pioneer of lesbian pulp fiction", "question_index": 20, "text": "Right. So this made it safe to travel through the mails. How did you feel when you were writing this phony ending?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, she goes to her to a doctor. And he turns her into a heterosexual. That's why she says she's going off with these wonderful straight couples for fun that weekend. Yes. And she realizes not only is"}
{"id": "1142786089", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "Remembering Marijane Meaker, a pioneer of lesbian pulp fiction", "question_index": 21, "text": "OK. Now we're talking about the kind of happy ending you had to paste on to your novel so that it wouldn't be censored in the mail. A subsequent novel that you wrote, also a lesbian novel called \"Whisper His Sin\" - I'm sorry - I guess - this is a homosexual novel.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I laughed. I was not politically conscious to that point. It really hadn't begun yet. I wrote this, I think it was '51 or '52. I was right out of college. And I thought it was a funny idea. You don't "}
{"id": "1142786089", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "Remembering Marijane Meaker, a pioneer of lesbian pulp fiction", "question_index": 22, "text": "\"Whisper His Sin.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. That was actually based on a true murder case, the Fraden-Wepman murder case. Two young men murdered one of their mothers. And I just copied that. I created that book from the news stories. I mad"}
{"id": "1142786089", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "Remembering Marijane Meaker, a pioneer of lesbian pulp fiction", "question_index": 23, "text": "The cover copy was, this is one of the most shocking novels we have ever published. It deals with a strange way of life that has become all too prevalent and is still spreading. The book begins in the tormented mind of a boy and ends in the tormented murder of his parents. Between this beginning and this end, there is a frightening picture of how the blight of sexual distortion spreads, corrupts and finally destroys those around it. We also believe that this is one of the most morally enlightening books you will ever read.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1142786089", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "Remembering Marijane Meaker, a pioneer of lesbian pulp fiction", "question_index": 24, "text": "Was it important in terms of censorship to put all this morally enlightening stuff on the cover?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1142786089", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "Remembering Marijane Meaker, a pioneer of lesbian pulp fiction", "question_index": 25, "text": "You write really well about gay bars in your new memoir about Patricia Highsmith, and you write how a lot of the gay bars were run by the Mafia in the 1950s.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that was all part of it. I think gay people felt - because we didn't have a sense of entitlement in the '50s - but we felt there are books about us. Even a book about a criminal case like Fraden "}
{"id": "1142786089", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "Remembering Marijane Meaker, a pioneer of lesbian pulp fiction", "question_index": 26, "text": "What were those bars like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1142786089", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "Remembering Marijane Meaker, a pioneer of lesbian pulp fiction", "question_index": 27, "text": "What are some of the things that happened after Stonewall and after the start of the gay rights movement that have affected your life that you thought you would never see?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were terrible. Like, you would go in. And at the door, there would be a man in an - a low man on the totem pole in the Mafia world. He would usually have a couple of zircons on his little fingers"}
{"id": "1142786089", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "Remembering Marijane Meaker, a pioneer of lesbian pulp fiction", "question_index": 28, "text": "Well, Marijane Meaker, thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The main thing I thought I would never see - and if my parents weren't dead, it would kill them - is the announcements in The New York Times, the commitment announcements along with the wedding pages."}
{"id": "1142786089", "date": "2022-12-14", "guest": "Marijane Meaker", "title": "Remembering Marijane Meaker, a pioneer of lesbian pulp fiction", "question_index": 29, "text": "My interview with Marijane Meaker was recorded in 2003. She died last month at the age of 95. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1143078657", "date": "2022-12-15", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against America in 'Ultra'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Rachel Maddow, has a new hit podcast series called \"Ultra\" in which she reports a little-known story about an ultra-right pro-Nazi movement that plotted to overthrow the U.S. government by force in the lead up to World War II. These groups worked with an agent from Hitler's government named George Viereck. He also colluded with over 20 sitting members of the U.S. Senate and House of Representatives to launder and spread Nazi propaganda, often at taxpayers' expense. Those congressmen were associated with the America First Committee, a group with many antisemitic leaders. The group opposed America entering World War II. In 1944, the plots led to the largest sedition trial in U.S. history. Maddow says there's a reason to know this history now because calculated efforts to undermine democracy, foment a coup, spread disinformation, overt actions involving not just a radical band of insurrectionists, but actual serving members of Congress working alongside them, it's terrible, but it's not unprecedented. For 14 years, Maddow hosted MSNBC's flagship weekday evening show. She recently cut back to hosting only Monday nights and special coverage so that she could devote more time to deeply reported longform projects like \"Ultra.\" Yesterday, it was announced that Steven Spielberg's production company optioned the movie rights for \"Ultra.\" Rachel Maddow, welcome back to FRESH AIR. And congratulations on the news that Steven Spielberg optioned your podcast for a movie, which makes perfect sense because it's about World War II and it's about antisemitism.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1143078657", "date": "2022-12-15", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against America in 'Ultra'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Well, I hope they get to pick your brain", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, Terry, thank you so much for having me. It is - even just hearing you say those words, the words Steven Spielberg associated with something that I'm working on, it's very overwhelming. It's hard t"}
{"id": "1143078657", "date": "2022-12-15", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against America in 'Ultra'", "question_index": 2, "text": "for the movie because you know so much. So let's talk about the podcast. It's - I learned so much from it. I found it so remarkable, as I'm sure all your listeners did, that there were sitting congressmen and senators in collusion with an agent from Hitler's Germany, somebody who they knew was an agent from Hitler's Germany. What did Hitler's government want from the congressman?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, Terry, thank you so much for having me. It is - even just hearing you say those words, the words Steven Spielberg associated with something that I'm working on, it's very overwhelming. It's hard t"}
{"id": "1143078657", "date": "2022-12-15", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against America in 'Ultra'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Did I overstate it when I said that the members of Congress who dealt with this German spy knew that he was a spy for Hitler's Germany?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very good question and one of the things that I think is oddly and sort of disturbingly most relevant to what's happened in our world in recent years. What they wanted in most instrumental terms was f"}
{"id": "1143078657", "date": "2022-12-15", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against America in 'Ultra'", "question_index": 4, "text": "So what are some of the things that this Nazi spy, George Viereck, asked the Congresspeople who he was in cahoots with to do, and what did the congressmen get in return?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "George Sylvester Viereck was a very high-profile German agent. There is no way that American members of Congress in the Senate who were dealing with him in World War II didn't know that he was a repre"}
{"id": "1143078657", "date": "2022-12-15", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against America in 'Ultra'", "question_index": 5, "text": "So some of the congressmen who were colluding with this Nazi propagandist, agent, spy, some of these congressmen were members of the America First Committee. What was the committee?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Congressmen, in many instances, got paid, which is depressing to me that that may have been part of the motivation for some of what they did. But they - a number of them did get paid. And a number of "}
{"id": "1143078657", "date": "2022-12-15", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against America in 'Ultra'", "question_index": 6, "text": "And their meetings had Nazi salutes and swastikas and really horrible rhetoric. How did the congressmen participate in the America First Committee? Like, what was their role in the committee?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The America First committee was the biggest and most influential American political group in the country in the immediate lead up to World War II. They were very respectable. They were founded by a bu"}
{"id": "1143078657", "date": "2022-12-15", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against America in 'Ultra'", "question_index": 7, "text": "The leader of the Pontiac, Mich., chapter of the America First Committee was quoted in Life magazine. I think it was 1942. And you mention this in the podcast. And this is what he said. \"We would like to ban the Jews and emphatically burn them out. The Jews control the White House. The president is a Jew. His wife is a Jewess. And Jews are running Washington and the nation.\" The president was FDR. \"To get rid of the Jews, we will have to burn and kill them off.\" And this was one of the defendants at the sedition trial.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There were mostly speakers. So the America First Committee would do big rallies, the famous ones in Madison Square Garden and places like that in New York City. But they'd have major events all around"}
{"id": "1143078657", "date": "2022-12-15", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against America in 'Ultra'", "question_index": 8, "text": "So Father Coughlin was a Catholic priest who had the most popular radio show in America, perhaps in the world. And he was extremely antisemitic and used his show as a platform for his antisemitism. So one of the more extreme things he said on the air after Kristallnacht - and this was the night in Germany when mobs attacked stores owned by Jews and shattered the glass in - of the storefronts. And so Coughlin gets on the air, and he said, the Jews had it coming. I mean, this is such, like, a frightening, horrible sign of what the Nazis were up to and a forerunner of what was to come.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, this was Garland Alderman, who was the head of the Pontiac, Mich., chapter of the America First Committee. And certainly, not everybody involved in the America First Committee was that violent i"}
{"id": "1143078657", "date": "2022-12-15", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against America in 'Ultra'", "question_index": 9, "text": "So Coughlin basically starts this group, the Christian Front. And this is basically, like, an antisemitic militia. Is that fair to say?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The thing that is so upsetting about that moment that you're talking about is that Coughlin, by then, was known to be extremely antisemitic. And Coughlin also had not only the largest radio audience i"}
{"id": "1143078657", "date": "2022-12-15", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against America in 'Ultra'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then, we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Rachel Maddow. Her new podcast series, \"Ultra,\" is about plots from ultra-right groups to overthrow the U.S. government in the years leading up to World War II. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He describes it as a militia. He wants the groups to form in platoon-sized units. So he's essentially calling for sort of a cell structure, which is a traditional terrorist cell structure. And he want"}
{"id": "1143078657", "date": "2022-12-15", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against America in 'Ultra'", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Rachel Maddow. Her new podcast series, \"Ultra,\" is about plots from ultra-right groups to overthrow the U.S. government in the years leading up to World War II. This included American congressmen, sitting members of Congress. And this led to the largest sedition trial in U.S. history. In 1944, J. Edgar Hoover, who was the head of the FBI, charged the Christian Front with plotting widespread terrorist activities. He charged them with sedition, a plot to overthrow the U.S. government by force. And the majority of the people who were indicted were either actively serving in the New York National Guard or they'd served in other branches of the military. So can you elaborate on that and that connection between the Christian Front and the military?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He describes it as a militia. He wants the groups to form in platoon-sized units. So he's essentially calling for sort of a cell structure, which is a traditional terrorist cell structure. And he want"}
{"id": "1143078657", "date": "2022-12-15", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against America in 'Ultra'", "question_index": 12, "text": "So most of the defendants in this Christian Front sedition trial were acquitted and the rest were let off in a mistrial. So basically, all of them got off. Was there insufficient evidence? Like, what - how did that happen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's another throughline that we can see with the sedition trial of groups like the Oath Keepers. Two senior members of the Oath Keepers were just convicted on seditious conspiracy charges, and others"}
{"id": "1143078657", "date": "2022-12-15", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against America in 'Ultra'", "question_index": 13, "text": "Yeah. I'm trying to think. Had I not known what happened on January 6 and had I not know more about the lead up to January 6, would I have thought that plans to storm the Capitol and have an insurrection were fantastical? I might have.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it's such an interesting story. So this is 1940, January 1942. It's before we're in World War II, when Hoover announces the arrests of the 17 members of the Christian Front in New York. It is fron"}
{"id": "1143078657", "date": "2022-12-15", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against America in 'Ultra'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, let's take another break here and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Rachel Maddow. And her show, \"The Rachel Maddow Show,\" is the flagship show on MSNBC. But she left doing the show five nights a week and is only doing it Monday nights so that she could pursue longform investigative reporting like her new podcast series, \"Ultra,\" which is about plots from the ultra-right groups to overthrow the U.S. government in the years leading up to World War II. The podcast series has just been optioned by Steven Spielberg to adapt into a movie. So we'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. Yeah. And that's the inherent problem in any sedition trial. A sedition charge is brought against somebody who's planning to overthrow the government. By definition, they're only being charge"}
{"id": "1143078657", "date": "2022-12-15", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against America in 'Ultra'", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Rachel Maddow. Her new podcast series, \"Ultra,\" is about plots from ultra-right groups to overthrow the U.S. government, ultra-right groups in the U.S. And this was in the years leading up to World War II. There were Nazi sympathizers. The movement involved a Nazi agent and spy colluding with American congressmen, as well as with isolationist groups like the America First Committee, which many congressmen were involved with, and the Christian Front, which was connected to the far-right antisemitic Catholic priest Father Coughlin, who had the most popular radio show in America. These plots led to the largest sedition trial in U.S. history. The sedition trial is complicated because there's basically several trials or several indictments, and it's a little confusing when one set of indictments kind of blends into the other. So let's talk about what's described as the largest sedition trial in American history. Who were the defendants and what were the charges?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. Yeah. And that's the inherent problem in any sedition trial. A sedition charge is brought against somebody who's planning to overthrow the government. By definition, they're only being charge"}
{"id": "1143078657", "date": "2022-12-15", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against America in 'Ultra'", "question_index": 16, "text": "So you describe the sedition trial as turning into bedlam. There's so many, like, outrageous things that happened. Like, during the period when potential jurors are questioned before they're chosen to be jurors, the defense asks some incredible questions, including things like, are you Jewish or do you have a relative who is? Do you read Jewish publications? What does Jew mean? What does international bankers mean? What's meant by Mongolian Jews? And do you think Jesus was a Jew? And there were no Jews, no African-Americans on the jury, but at least three German Americans. It's amazing that the judge let this kind of questioning happen and that there were no Jews, but there were three German Americans.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So there were a handful of different indictments that were brought. The first prosecutor who was involved was named William Power Maloney, and he brought two subsequent indictments, naming between two"}
{"id": "1143078657", "date": "2022-12-15", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against America in 'Ultra'", "question_index": 17, "text": "And you say that the defense tried to prevent the trial, tried to postpone the trial, tried to have a mistrial declared, and they kept doing that, like, over and over. The trial came to a kind of a dramatic conclusion because the judge went home one night after the trial had been going on for months, had dinner, and then died in his sleep. So what happened after that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. This is flummoxing in some ways. I mean, defense counsel can propose all sorts of crazy things to be asked to potential jurors, but it's up to the judge to decide what actually gets asked. And f"}
{"id": "1143078657", "date": "2022-12-15", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against America in 'Ultra'", "question_index": 18, "text": "And they proceeded with the case.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a crazy moment. I mean, the trial never got less chaotic from the very beginning. And you can see it in the newspaper coverage at the time that there's reporters who are planning on being in th"}
{"id": "1143078657", "date": "2022-12-15", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against America in 'Ultra'", "question_index": 19, "text": "They did not proceed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They did not proceed with the case, which is a remarkable..."}
{"id": "1143078657", "date": "2022-12-15", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against America in 'Ultra'", "question_index": 20, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Rachel Maddow. Her new podcast series, \"Ultra,\" is about plots from the ultra-right groups to overthrow the U.S. government in the years leading up to World War II. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. They allowed the mistrial to be the end of the story. And Rogge's report from Germany, with all the evidence that was collected from German officials confirming the central charges of the sedition"}
{"id": "1143078657", "date": "2022-12-15", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against America in 'Ultra'", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Rachel Maddow. Her new podcast series, \"Ultra,\" is about plots from ultra-right groups to overthrow the U.S. government in the years leading up to World War II. So none of the congressmen who were colluding with Hitler's Germany ever got indicted. Is that right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. They allowed the mistrial to be the end of the story. And Rogge's report from Germany, with all the evidence that was collected from German officials confirming the central charges of the sedition"}
{"id": "1143078657", "date": "2022-12-15", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against America in 'Ultra'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Yeah, why not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. And it's a good question as to why not."}
{"id": "1143078657", "date": "2022-12-15", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against America in 'Ultra'", "question_index": 23, "text": "So the legal system never held anybody accountable for this sedition and for the violence that these ultra-right-wing groups were behind, and the congressmen weren't held accountable. Did the people hold the colluders accountable?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, Viereck himself, who was the German agent, was charged. And in his individual trial and, again, in the evidence that was brought forward against him in the sedition trial, the government"}
{"id": "1143078657", "date": "2022-12-15", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against America in 'Ultra'", "question_index": 24, "text": "And now there are sedition trials pertaining to the Jan. 6 insurrection. And the first sedition trial against leaders of the militia group the Oath Keepers found two leaders guilty of seditious conspiracy. There is another Oath Keepers sedition trial going on now and a sedition trial of leaders of another militia group, the Proud Boys, that's about to start. Do you find it amazing the parallels between the period you're writing about, the years leading up to World War II, and now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, in almost every instance. And this was a surprise to me and a really interesting part of the research. This, as a prosecution, didn't work. But the Justice Department's investigation was of inter"}
{"id": "1143078657", "date": "2022-12-15", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against America in 'Ultra'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Rachel, you've basically given up a lot of real estate on MSNBC to pursue long-term projects like \"Ultra.\" So you're only hosting your show one night a week on MSNBC Monday nights. And you're also doing special coverage, which means you've been on MSNBC probably more than you planned", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is a little unnerving. I didn't plan it this way. But we published the first episode of the podcast when opening statements started in the first Oath Keepers sedition trial. And the final episode c"}
{"id": "1143078657", "date": "2022-12-15", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against America in 'Ultra'", "question_index": 26, "text": ". But I'm curious what it's like - you know, having done a daily show myself for many years - what it's like to, you know, still be on the air but not have it be a daily show. I'm also wondering about the adrenaline. I think those of us who are on, like, constant deadline work kind of feed off the adrenaline in a way. And I hate to admit this because I know constant adrenaline is really unhealthy for a lot of reasons, but it is kind of energizing. But it can get too much like having too much coffee to drink does. So what's it like to not have that daily constant deadline adrenaline coursing through your body?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is a little unnerving. I didn't plan it this way. But we published the first episode of the podcast when opening statements started in the first Oath Keepers sedition trial. And the final episode c"}
{"id": "1143078657", "date": "2022-12-15", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against America in 'Ultra'", "question_index": 27, "text": "Did you have to think a really long time before deciding to actually make that really big change in your life? I mean, your show is the flagship show on MSNBC. And this is - for getting - being concerned with what would happen to your staff after you left, because I know that you made a deal with MSNBC that they would continue to have jobs, which is really admirable on your part. I applaud you for doing that. But how hard was it to make the decision that you were going to make a major change in your work life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's - you are zooming in on the central things in my life right now. I mean, the pressure of a daily production deadline, it does two things. One, it sends adrenaline coursing through you, for good o"}
{"id": "1143078657", "date": "2022-12-15", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against America in 'Ultra'", "question_index": 28, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Rachel Maddow. And her new podcast series, \"Ultra,\" is about plots from ultra-right groups in the U.S. to overthrow the U.S. government in the years leading up to World War II. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I knew that I needed to make the change for me just in terms of my health. I've had a lot of back trouble over the last five years, and that is something that I've sort of mediated a little bit throug"}
{"id": "1143078657", "date": "2022-12-15", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against America in 'Ultra'", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Rachel Maddow, who still hosts \"The Rachel Maddow Show\" Monday nights on MSNBC. She gave up hosting the rest of the week to work on long-term projects like her new podcast series \"Ultra,\" which is about plots from ultra-right groups to overthrow the U.S. government in the years leading up to World War II. You mentioned having back trouble for the past five years. I always think of you as a real, like, outdoorsy, athletic person. I know you were, like, an athlete - I think you were an athlete in high school. And you're always talking about, like, going fishing and doing outdoorsy kinds of things. How has back trouble interfered, if at all, with the kind of activities you like to do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I knew that I needed to make the change for me just in terms of my health. I've had a lot of back trouble over the last five years, and that is something that I've sort of mediated a little bit throug"}
{"id": "1143078657", "date": "2022-12-15", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against America in 'Ultra'", "question_index": 30, "text": "What was it like to learn to live with pain?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A lot. When my - I threw my back out kind of really suddenly in the spring of 2017. And I - it turned out that I had all these herniated discs, and I had to consider surgery and all this stuff. And it"}
{"id": "1143078657", "date": "2022-12-15", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against America in 'Ultra'", "question_index": 31, "text": "Yeah. Well, you master pain really well, I have to say.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Frustrating and humbling. I mean, it makes you realize the limitations of your will. You know, you can't will yourself to not feel pain, and you can't will yourself to have physical functions that you"}
{"id": "1143078657", "date": "2022-12-15", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against America in 'Ultra'", "question_index": 32, "text": "As a viewer, I never had a clue that you were hurting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1143078657", "date": "2022-12-15", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against America in 'Ultra'", "question_index": 33, "text": "I knew you were concerned about American democracy; I didn't know you were concerned about your back.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1143078657", "date": "2022-12-15", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against America in 'Ultra'", "question_index": 34, "text": "Yes. Rachel Maddow, it's been great to talk with you again. And congratulations on \"Ultra,\" on the success of \"Ultra\" and on the fact that Steven Spielberg hopes to make it into a movie", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Success."}
{"id": "1143078657", "date": "2022-12-15", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against America in 'Ultra'", "question_index": 35, "text": ". So that's all pretty exciting. It's really been great to talk with you again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Success."}
{"id": "1143078657", "date": "2022-12-15", "guest": "Rachel Maddow", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against America in 'Ultra'", "question_index": 36, "text": "Rachel Maddow's podcast series is called \"Ultra.\" Yesterday, it was announced that Steven Spielberg's production company optioned the movie rights. If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed - like this week's interview with Adam Hochschild about threats to American democracy from within during World War I; or with Rian Johnson, who wrote and directed the comic murder mystery \"Knives Out\" and its new sequel \"Glass Onion\" - check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. Don't forget, you can subscribe to the FRESH AIR newsletter for free on our website, freshair.npr.org. We'll end the show with some good news. Yesterday, our producer Heidi Saman gave birth to a beautiful baby girl with a beautiful name, Rio Torres Tannenbaum (ph). Welcome to the world, Rio. And congratulations to Heidi and her husband, Joel Tannenbaum (ph). FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You too, Terry. Thank you so much. This is fantastic. Thank you."}
{"id": "1143180741", "date": "2022-12-16", "guest": "Grace Kelly", "title": "What a classic '50s Western can teach us about the Hollywood Blacklist", "question_index": 0, "text": "Glenn Frankel, welcome to FRESH AIR. Do you see any parallels between today and the story you're telling about the blacklisting of people in the film industry accused of being communists or communist sympathizers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You made that promise when we wed..."}
{"id": "1143180741", "date": "2022-12-16", "guest": "Grace Kelly", "title": "What a classic '50s Western can teach us about the Hollywood Blacklist", "question_index": 1, "text": "One of the ways we got the blacklist was that President Truman signed an executive order creating loyalty oaths. Would you describe that executive order?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I do. I think that the blacklist movement stems out of what you might consider a backlash in politics in the late 1940s and early '50s, after World War II has ended and the Cold War has begun, an"}
{"id": "1143180741", "date": "2022-12-16", "guest": "Grace Kelly", "title": "What a classic '50s Western can teach us about the Hollywood Blacklist", "question_index": 2, "text": "So the House Un-American Activities Committee, which is actually the predecessor of the House Judiciary Committee, started to hold hearings about who's a communist, who's a commie sympathizer. What was the stated goal of the hearings?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's exactly where it was. I mean, you have to remember, this is 1947. The Republicans have taken control of both houses of Congress after - in the '46 election for the first time in more than"}
{"id": "1143180741", "date": "2022-12-16", "guest": "Grace Kelly", "title": "What a classic '50s Western can teach us about the Hollywood Blacklist", "question_index": 3, "text": "And there was a part of Hollywood that really approved of these hearings. The Motion Picture Alliance for the Preservation of American Ideals wanted HUAC to investigate Hollywood. What was this alliance?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in this specific case in Hollywood, they were looking to see or to prove that there had been communist infiltration into Hollywood, that this was a part of a mass plot by - engineered by Moscow "}
{"id": "1143180741", "date": "2022-12-16", "guest": "Grace Kelly", "title": "What a classic '50s Western can teach us about the Hollywood Blacklist", "question_index": 4, "text": "Do you see any connection between the fears of Hollywood then and its, like, leftist orientation to the accusations today that Hollywood is liberal?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This was a group formed in 1944 by people - by conservatives and anti-communists in Hollywood itself. It was led by several screenwriters. Walt Disney was involved in it - a number of directors and ot"}
{"id": "1143180741", "date": "2022-12-16", "guest": "Grace Kelly", "title": "What a classic '50s Western can teach us about the Hollywood Blacklist", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Hollywood was founded by the Jews, not to put too fine a point on it. Most of the studios..."}
{"id": "1143180741", "date": "2022-12-16", "guest": "Grace Kelly", "title": "What a classic '50s Western can teach us about the Hollywood Blacklist", "question_index": 6, "text": "So when people from Hollywood were called to testify before the House Un-American Activities Committee, what was required of them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Were created by guys who were either - and they were all guys at the time - who either were immigrants themselves from Eastern Europe or whose parents were, and they came to Hollywood and invented "}
{"id": "1143180741", "date": "2022-12-16", "guest": "Grace Kelly", "title": "What a classic '50s Western can teach us about the Hollywood Blacklist", "question_index": 7, "text": "And that created a very toxic atmosphere in Hollywood, where everybody was worried that their friends and their screenwriter and their director might rat them out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they learned very quickly in the first set of hearings, which were in 1947, that they were being required to confess to their involvement in leftist causes, whether they had been members of the "}
{"id": "1143180741", "date": "2022-12-16", "guest": "Grace Kelly", "title": "What a classic '50s Western can teach us about the Hollywood Blacklist", "question_index": 8, "text": "\"High Noon\" was released in 1952. Carl Foreman, the screenwriter, who's the main character in your book, initially intended to make a Western that would be a parable about the post-World War II world and the importance of the new United Nations. But after the blacklist started, he decided to make \"High Noon\" a parable about the blacklisting era. So in what sense do you see and do - did he see \"High Noon\" as a parable about that era?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, exactly. It created a lot of fear and anxiety. Now, in 1947, when the committee first came out and held its first set of hearings, a lot of people in Hollywood banded against it. Even the studio"}
{"id": "1143180741", "date": "2022-12-16", "guest": "Grace Kelly", "title": "What a classic '50s Western can teach us about the Hollywood Blacklist", "question_index": 9, "text": "No, of course.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Carl talked about this later. Of course, he didn't say anything about it at the time..."}
{"id": "1143180741", "date": "2022-12-16", "guest": "Grace Kelly", "title": "What a classic '50s Western can teach us about the Hollywood Blacklist", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yeah. Mmm hmm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Because it would have been dangerous for the movie."}
{"id": "1143180741", "date": "2022-12-16", "guest": "Grace Kelly", "title": "What a classic '50s Western can teach us about the Hollywood Blacklist", "question_index": 11, "text": "One of the points of the movie is that people don't have the courage to stand up for justice and truth. They don't want to take risks.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. And we're listening to Terry's interview with journalist Glenn Frankel, recorded in 2017. Frankel had just published the book \"High Noon\" about the classic Western's relationship to"}
{"id": "1143180741", "date": "2022-12-16", "guest": "Grace Kelly", "title": "What a classic '50s Western can teach us about the Hollywood Blacklist", "question_index": 12, "text": "Why don't we hear that scene? So this is a scene from \"High Noon.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. This marshal, who is convinced that his close friends are going to be with him, discovers very differently. And the crucial moment, I think, is during the scene in the church when he goes the"}
{"id": "1143180741", "date": "2022-12-16", "guest": "Grace Kelly", "title": "What a classic '50s Western can teach us about the Hollywood Blacklist", "question_index": 13, "text": "That's a scene from \"High Noon.\" My guest is Glenn Frankel, author of the new book \"High Noon: The Hollywood Blacklist And The Making Of An American Classic.\" So Carl Foreman, the screenwriter of \"High Noon,\" was called before the House Un-American Activities Committee. What did they think they had on him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Mayor Jonas Henderson) All right, I'll say this. What this town owes Will Kane here, it could never pay with money. And don't ever forget it. He's the best marshal we ever had, maybe the best mars"}
{"id": "1143180741", "date": "2022-12-16", "guest": "Grace Kelly", "title": "What a classic '50s Western can teach us about the Hollywood Blacklist", "question_index": 14, "text": "So had he been a member of the Communist Party?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. Let's get back to Terry's interview with Glenn Frankel, author of the book \"High Noon: The Hollywood Blacklist And The Making Of An American Cla"}
{"id": "1143180741", "date": "2022-12-16", "guest": "Grace Kelly", "title": "What a classic '50s Western can teach us about the Hollywood Blacklist", "question_index": 15, "text": "So Gary Cooper, the iconic star of \"High Noon,\" is very conservative, anti-communist. What was his reaction when Carl Foreman, the screenwriter, called to testify before HUAC?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He had indeed. He and his wife, Estelle, when they came out to Hollywood in 1938, had fairly quickly joined the party. Remember, we're talking about the tail end of the Great Depression. We're talking"}
{"id": "1143180741", "date": "2022-12-16", "guest": "Grace Kelly", "title": "What a classic '50s Western can teach us about the Hollywood Blacklist", "question_index": 16, "text": "So what was Carl Foreman's approach to testifying before the committee?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you have to remember that Cooper was 50 years old and at the stage of his career where he was kind of desperate for good parts. The studio system was beginning to fall apart. He was the ultimate"}
{"id": "1143180741", "date": "2022-12-16", "guest": "Grace Kelly", "title": "What a classic '50s Western can teach us about the Hollywood Blacklist", "question_index": 17, "text": "So what were the consequences for him of not fully testifying and of not naming names?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he gets there and he is rather coy, I would say. He says, I'm not a member of the Communist Party now. And he says that by saying, look, last year, everyone in the Screenwriters Guild and the ex"}
{"id": "1143180741", "date": "2022-12-16", "guest": "Grace Kelly", "title": "What a classic '50s Western can teach us about the Hollywood Blacklist", "question_index": 18, "text": "He self-exiled to England. And then his passport was revoked, except for travel back to the U.S. And so there are real serious consequences he paid.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, as of the newspaper coverage, you know, headlines the next day said that he had refused to cooperate. And that same day, the Stanley Kramer Company, which was now, as I say, in a production deal"}
{"id": "1143180741", "date": "2022-12-16", "guest": "Grace Kelly", "title": "What a classic '50s Western can teach us about the Hollywood Blacklist", "question_index": 19, "text": "So the way our government ruined the lives of many people during the blacklist - you know, this was only about 70 years ago that it began, and it didn't end until the early 1960s. So this is in the lifetime of many people who are alive today. What are some of the lessons that this chapter of American history has for us today?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR, and we're listening to Terry's interview with journalist Glenn Frankel, recorded in 2017. Frankel had just published the book \"High Noon\" about the classic Western's relationship to"}
{"id": "1143180741", "date": "2022-12-16", "guest": "Grace Kelly", "title": "What a classic '50s Western can teach us about the Hollywood Blacklist", "question_index": 20, "text": "You quote Alan Barth, who was the editorial page editor of The Washington Post. And you say that he was one of the few mainstream journalists to speak out about the press's role in blacklisting. I'll read that quote. He writes, (reading) the tradition of objectivity has operated in this context to make the press an instrument of those seeking to inflict punishment by publication. Allegations that would otherwise be ignored as groundless and libelous are blown up on front pages and given a significance out of all relation to the intrinsic merit after they've been made before a committee of Congress. How did you find that quote?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think our institutions let us down in the 1940s and early '50s - not just, you know, this runaway congressional committee, but the courts who didn't act on this, who actually, you know, denied"}
{"id": "1143180741", "date": "2022-12-16", "guest": "Grace Kelly", "title": "What a classic '50s Western can teach us about the Hollywood Blacklist", "question_index": 21, "text": "So we've talked a lot about the blacklist. Let's talk a little bit about the film itself. \"High Noon\" is a great film. So there's a lot of great, iconic close-ups of faces that reminds me a lot of what Sergio Leone did later with his Italian Westerns. And I'm assuming he liked \"High Noon.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Alan Barth wrote a couple of books on this subject, and I read them and found this quote in one of them. And, yes, Alan Barth was one of the people who did stand up and whose editorials were qui"}
{"id": "1143180741", "date": "2022-12-16", "guest": "Grace Kelly", "title": "What a classic '50s Western can teach us about the Hollywood Blacklist", "question_index": 22, "text": "There's two really strong women characters in the film. One of them's played by Grace Kelly, and she's in her 20s. She's just married the Gary Cooper character, the marshal. And she's a Quaker. And she doesn't believe in violence. So when Gary Cooper wants to, like, stay and kill the bad guys, she decides to leave. She doesn't want to wait around to see if her husband's going to be shot down on the street or not. And she just opposes his whole approach to this. But she does come back to save him and to be with him. And she, in fact, literally saves his life. She shoots one of the bad guys who's about to shoot him. She wrestles herself away from one of the bad guys who was holding her hostages and is about to shoot her husband. You don't see that a lot in Westerns of that era where it's the woman who saves the man. It's usually the man who saves the woman.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It sure looks like it, doesn't it? The difference is, of course, that \"High Noon\" is in black and white, and it had a sort of documentary look to it. This was something that Fred Zinnemann and his cam"}
{"id": "1143180741", "date": "2022-12-16", "guest": "Grace Kelly", "title": "What a classic '50s Western can teach us about the Hollywood Blacklist", "question_index": 23, "text": "And her standing up and defending her husband - it's not part of her belief system. Like, her belief system is being a Quaker and opposing violence. But she responds to what's happening at that moment in real life and decides to leave that system and just, you know, shoot when she has to, which is kind of interesting because you're dealing with ideology in the world of blacklisting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's exactly right. And it's interesting - she stands up for herself in the first part of the film. Her husband can't really articulate to her why he has to stay, why he feels he has no choice"}
{"id": "1143180741", "date": "2022-12-16", "guest": "Grace Kelly", "title": "What a classic '50s Western can teach us about the Hollywood Blacklist", "question_index": 24, "text": "Glenn Frankel, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's true. Well, here you have, I guess you could say, sort of situational ethics. I mean, she has a principled stand. She wants to stick to it. But this is her husband's life at stake. And wh"}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. From today until New Year's Day, we have a special end-of-the-year series for you, featuring some of our favorite interviews of 2022. We'll start with Sheryl Lee Ralph, who won an Emmy this year for her performance as a teacher in the ABC comedy series \"Abbott Elementary.\" The series is about the teachers in an under-resourced, majority-Black elementary school in Philadelphia. The creator of the series, Quinta Brunson, plays a new idealistic teacher who's still a little clueless. Ralph's character has been teaching for 30 years and is the kind of teacher who, with a glance, can get an unruly class to sit down or quietly line up single file. Here's how the character describes herself.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 1, "text": "Season 2 of \"Abbott Elementary\" resumes January 4. Earlier episodes are streaming on the ABC website and Hulu. Sheryl Lee Ralph got her first big break in the 1977 Sidney Poitier film, \"A Piece Of The Action.\" An even bigger break came in 1981 when she starred in the hit Broadway musical \"Dreamgirls.\" She played Deena Jones, a singer who's part of a trio of Black women called the Dreams. The musical was loosely based on the rise of the '60s girl groups like the Supremes and the Shirelles. After the success of \"Dreamgirls,\" Ralph moved to LA but found there were few roles available to Black actors. But she kept pushing to find a place for herself. She won an Independent Spirit Award for her performance in Charles Burnett's 1990 film, \"To Sleep With Anger.\" From 1996 to 2001, she played Brandy's stepmother in the popular sitcom \"Moesha.\" Here's another clip from \"Abbott Elementary.\" Quinta Brunson's character, Janine, the new teacher, needs a new rug for the classroom because one of her students peed on it. There's no money. But she thinks the principal, Ava, will help her get a rug. Janine asks for advice from Sheryl Lee Ralph's character, Barbara Howard.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Barbara Howard) I'm Barbara Howard, woman of God. I do my work. I go home. I get my nails done every week. And I love teaching."}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 2, "text": "Sheryl Lee Ralph, welcome to FRESH AIR. I love your character. She's strict, but all the kids respect her because they know she cares and that she's cared enough to stay and never give up on them and that they're safe in her classroom. She respects them. They respect her. I feel like I know you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hmm."}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 3, "text": "Did you draw from teachers or from other women that you knew to base your character on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you. And I love this show, so thank you for having me as a guest."}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 4, "text": "What did you learn from her about how to gain the respect of students or of younger people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely. You know, I'm surrounded by educators. You know, my dad - my Auntie Carolyn would be the closest one. You know, she was a blue-ribbon educator, the kind that was the teacher-turned pri"}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 5, "text": "In the years before and after \"Dreamgirls,\" you couldn't get many roles because you're Black and because some casting directors wouldn't cast a Black woman, and others thought you were too light or too dark for the role. And you have some pretty great stories about that. I'm going to ask you to tell one of them. And I know you've told it before, but it's too good not to tell on our show. This is the Tom Cruise story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know something? I think it's about letting them know that boundaries are there for a reason - and don't make me have to say this three times. I understand if I might have to say it twice, but do n"}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 6, "text": "I like the way you kind of turned that around and said, like, well, everybody knows you're beautiful. Everybody knows you're talented. Is that what you tried to keep from what you were told, as opposed to there's no place for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my goodness. I literally came out to California after doing \"Dreamgirls.\" You know, I was returning to a city that I absolutely loved, and I was ready to work. I had a great pedigree - Tony nomina"}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my goodness. I literally came out to California after doing \"Dreamgirls.\" You know, I was returning to a city that I absolutely loved, and I was ready to work. I had a great pedigree - Tony nomina"}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 8, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's what I tried to keep. It's what I kept."}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 9, "text": "Your first big break was given to you by Sidney Poitier, who directed and starred with Bill Cosby in the film \"A Piece Of The Action.\" I think this was 1977.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's what I kept. It's what encouraged me to move forward, the fact that he said to me that everybody knew it. Everybody knew it."}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 10, "text": "And you were cast as a teenager in juvie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct."}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 11, "text": "So what did you learn working with Sidney Poitier as the star of the film and as the director of the film? Because he was in both roles.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 12, "text": "Let's talk about \"Dreamgirls.\" Did you love the girl groups when you were growing up, groups like the Supremes, the Shirelles, the Chiffons?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Because he really, really taught me that I had to stay ready because they weren't going to do the job for me."}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 13, "text": "How did hair and costumes help you get into character for \"Dreamgirls\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, how could I not love a good girl group? And they just came - they just kept coming at me. I loved the Supremes. I loved the 5th Dimension. I loved the Three Degrees. Oh, my God - all different"}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my goodness. First of all, it was Ted. I think it was Ted Azar. And Ted Azar introduced us to the most beautiful lace front wigs ever created, ever designed for the stage. And we had so many wig a"}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 15, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Were to fall off onstage. Oh, my God. The crunching, the clashing that could be heard..."}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 16, "text": "Oh, that much?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...From your shoes on those glass beads, I mean, it was something else. And having the stamina to wear and carry a dress that weighed upwards of 30 pounds..."}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 17, "text": "You're basically wearing a set of wine glasses", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God. These were full glass-beaded dresses. These were not the plastic beads of today. These were glass beads, hand-strung glass beads. And they were quite spectacular costumes."}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God. These were full glass-beaded dresses. These were not the plastic beads of today. These were glass beads, hand-strung glass beads. And they were quite spectacular costumes."}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You're wearing a big ol' set of wine glasses."}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 20, "text": "Well, let's hear the signature song of the girl group the Dreams. And this is the song \"Dreamgirls.\" And you are, of course, singing lead on this, along with Jennifer Holliday and Loretta Devine as part of the trio.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And they're heavy once you string them all together."}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 21, "text": "That's from the original cast recording of \"Dreamgirls.\" This is actually from the 25th anniversary version of that. And so we heard from my guest, Sheryl Lee Ralph, singing lead with Jennifer Holliday and Loretta Devine. Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Sheryl Lee Ralph, one of the stars of the comedy series \"Abbott Elementary.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As the Dreams, singing) Every man has his own special dream. And your dream's just about to come true. Life's not as bad as it may seem if you open your eyes to what's in front of you. We're your dre"}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Sheryl Lee Ralph, one of the stars of \"Abbott Elementary.\" She's also known for her starring role in the original Broadway cast of \"Dreamgirls\" and for playing the stepmother on the series \"Moesha.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As the Dreams, singing) Every man has his own special dream. And your dream's just about to come true. Life's not as bad as it may seem if you open your eyes to what's in front of you. We're your dre"}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 23, "text": "So you were 24 when \"Dreamgirls\" became a Broadway hit. One of the things that happened during the run is that you developed an eating disorder. You basically stopped eating. You kept getting smaller and smaller while, you say, Jennifer Holliday, reacting to stress, kept eating more and gaining weight. What was causing you such distress that led to anorexia?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As the Dreams, singing) Every man has his own special dream. And your dream's just about to come true. Life's not as bad as it may seem if you open your eyes to what's in front of you. We're your dre"}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 24, "text": "Your character's supposed to be more pop.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was the fact that I started to feel like I was invisible. I started to feel like I was not really seen. You know, as an actor, you know, you create a full character. And then, there are peo"}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 25, "text": "You talked about feeling like you weren't being seen. I mean, you were literally being seen by, you know, big audiences every night. But also, at the same time, it sounds like Michael Bennett, who was directing the show, kept playing you and Jennifer Holliday against each other as rivals, including as rivals for his attention, mirroring what was happening in the show between your two characters. Are you bothered by the idea of making people feel bad about each other in real life so that they'll feel bad about each other in the film? I mean, do you feel like you should be...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I'm more pop. And I'm more the cheerleader with the velvet hammer. You know, let's look beautiful. Let's put on our gowns. Let's go out there and entertain the people. None of our pain needs to b"}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 26, "text": "Yeah, I mean, don't you feel like you should be respected as an actor who can get there without, you know, somebody feeling like they have to manipulate you into getting the performance that they want?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "How could I not be?"}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Listen, I would have liked it to have been that way, but obviously, he didn't feel that. And he pitted the two of us against each other, and it was horrible. It didn't feel good. It hurt. And it messe"}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 28, "text": "Well, that's a message.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then, he did things - like, on opening night, she got diamond earrings from Tiffany's, and I got a belt buckle."}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 29, "text": "Brass. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's a big message. I got a brass belt buckle."}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 30, "text": "Do you ever listen to the cast recording? Do you ever go back and revisit that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 31, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's great to work out to. It's a great workout..."}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 32, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Soundtrack."}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 33, "text": "All right. You know, \"Dreamgirls,\" when you were on Broadway, it had a really big gay following. Michael Bennett, the director, was gay, but he was still in the closet when you were working in the show. I think the choreographer was gay 'cause the choreographer for that show was somebody else, right? Or did Bennett choreograph it, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 34, "text": "So you had a lot of friends who were getting AIDS who were dying. What impact did it have on you to be losing so many friends and watching them suffer and knowing that there was more to come?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The choreographer was Michael Peters. Michael Bennett and Bob Avian basically choreographed together. But a lot of it was Michael Peters, who went on to choreograph Michael Jackson in his whole \"Thril"}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 35, "text": "Why do you think Michael Bennett said that to you? Do you think he didn't want you to take a public stand, that it might hurt the show in some way? Or was he just bitter about how AIDS was being ignored?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It really was a shock to my humanity. It was a shock to the little church girl in me that people could be suffering, people could be dying, and human beings found it easy to not care, not love. You kn"}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 36, "text": "My guest is Sheryl Lee Ralph, one of the stars of the comedy series \"Abbott Elementary.\" She's also known for her starring role in the original Broadway cast of \"Dreamgirls\" and for playing the stepmother on the series \"Moesha.\" We'll be back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it was an interesting time during the AIDS epidemic where even those who were infected did not want people to draw any more attention to them or what was going on. And when he took ill and w"}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 37, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Sheryl Lee Ralph, who co-stars in the hit comedy series \"Abbott Elementary.\" She plays Barbara Howard, one of the teachers in the elementary school. Ralph got her first movie role in the film \"A Piece Of The Action,\" which Sidney Poitier directed and starred in. She went on to star in the original cast of the hit Broadway show \"Dreamgirls.\" In the series \"Moesha,\" starring Brandy, she played Moesha's stepmother.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it was an interesting time during the AIDS epidemic where even those who were infected did not want people to draw any more attention to them or what was going on. And when he took ill and w"}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 38, "text": "Let's a little bit about your background. Your mother is from Jamaica. Her aunt sponsored her to come to America, where your mother hoped to become a nurse. She met your father when they were both working at a hospital. And he was a graduate student at NYU. He became a teacher - your mother, a designer. In fact, she designed what you describe in your memoir as a Kareeba suit, a Jamaican version of a Western-style suit. Can you just - I don't - I'm not sure if I've ever seen that. Or if I did, I didn't know what it was called. So can you tell us something about that and why she felt she needed an alternative?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it was an interesting time during the AIDS epidemic where even those who were infected did not want people to draw any more attention to them or what was going on. And when he took ill and w"}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 39, "text": "Was the jacket shaped like a suit jacket? Or was it shaped differently?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mother was - she told me that she was so tired of seeing men from the Caribbean and other hot countries sweat when they went to court, sweat when they saw the queen, just sweat. And she wanted to c"}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 40, "text": "Since your mother was a fashion designer, did clothing mean a lot to you when you were coming of age? And are you very picky about what your characters wear 'cause you know what clothes signify?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It buttoned further up than a regular suit jacket, and it opened up to flat lapels. And men would sometimes wear it open. Or if they were dressing it up, they would wear an ascot as a more formal pres"}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 41, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then, we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Sheryl Lee Ralph, one of the stars of the comedy series \"Abbott Elementary.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Always, always. So it was always important for me to be dressed appropriately. More than that, it was important for my mother - remember, I'm an immigrant child - to be dressed appropriately so that t"}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 42, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Sheryl Lee Ralph, one of the stars of \"Abbott Elementary.\" She's also known for her starring role in the original Broadway cast of \"Dreamgirls\" and for playing the stepmother on the series \"Moesha.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Always, always. So it was always important for me to be dressed appropriately. More than that, it was important for my mother - remember, I'm an immigrant child - to be dressed appropriately so that t"}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 43, "text": "So I want to ask you about an incident in your family. And I'm not sure how old you were at the time or if you were even alive at the time. I think you were. But your grandfather was shot to death during a home invasion. Would you briefly tell the story and where - like, where you were at the time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Always, always. So it was always important for me to be dressed appropriately. More than that, it was important for my mother - remember, I'm an immigrant child - to be dressed appropriately so that t"}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 44, "text": "Because it was one of the students from one of those after-school programs that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was 16 years old. I was a freshman at Rutgers. And my dad made a call. You know, you had pay phones at the end of the hall. And he called me. And I answered it. And he said, stay where you are. I'll"}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 45, "text": "...Tried to rob the house, thinking that your grandparents wouldn't be home. Your grandmother chased after the home invaders with a kitchen knife. And one of them turned around and shot your grandfather pointblank.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 46, "text": "Were you scarred by those shootings?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They shot my grandfather in the chest. And they shot her in her face. The bullet went through her face. She was always a beautiful woman. And I think that everything changed for her because that was r"}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 47, "text": "I'm sorry. What happened to your son?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think there's no way you can't be scarred by things like gun violence and all of that. I don't think there's any way you can't be scarred, you know? I talk about gun violence now and what happened t"}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 48, "text": "Did he have a full recovery?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My son graduated from Drexel, and one of those parties before graduation - you know, too much drinking, ended up in the wrong neighborhood. And somebody used him for target practice, shot him three ti"}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 49, "text": "Does that strike you as a blessing that that's all he remembers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He has had a full recovery. He remembers nothing about that day, nothing about that day or that night other than getting into a cab. That's all he remembers."}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 50, "text": "Did you ever get a chance to thank him in person?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Because they wanted me to see the video. And all I could hear was my son with a wailing sound and trying to move. And somebody picked my son up off of the street in Philadelphia and took h"}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 51, "text": "Wow, you have to be strong to deal with that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My children did. I did not. But I did get to thank the police officer because, you know, if you ever need a good police officer, it's a good thing to find. Bad ones are a whole 'nother (ph) thing. But"}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 52, "text": "I'm sorry. Forgive me. I didn't realize that that had happened, and I'm just processing that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 53, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's hard to process."}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 54, "text": "Who told you what happened? How did you find out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's very hard to process. It's very difficult. You know, sometimes, I just think about it, how I could have lost my child."}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 55, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My daughter called me one day. I was making up the bed with my husband. We were there in Philly. I just happened to be in Philadelphia because we were preparing, you know, for parties, for graduation "}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 56, "text": "Oh, a horrible story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, oh, my God. And we got him. And he wasn't getting better, and he was moaning in pain. And my husband went downstairs, and he said, get dressed. We're taking him back to the hospital now. When we "}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 57, "text": "Just take a moment.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep. And it really happened. Yeah."}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 58, "text": "You describe yourself as having grown up the obedient child, the child that so believed your parents could see you by radar, that if your mother told you to be home before dark and you weren't, that she was going to be able to find out exactly where you were. And that you felt your parents had superpowers, so you listened to them, and you were a good girl. But you also learned how to push back. You learned how to talk back. You learned how to turn down roles you didn't like, like turning down prostitute roles. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's the first time I really told that whole story like that. And I think sometimes when these horrible things happen, you have to compartmentalize them. But if you get stuck in them, you can just be "}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 59, "text": "That's your father?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's my father."}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 60, "text": "The say no was - the say no and stand up and resist was your father and the be a good girl was your mother?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's my dad."}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 61, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely. You know what? Not quite. My - I would say that my mother, as an immigrant, she wanted me to be able to be ready for whatever was going to be thrown at me. And to understand that when "}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 62, "text": "Oh, that's so interestingly put. I have never heard anybody say that quite. Yeah, I like that. It has been such a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much for coming on our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". My father wanted to encourage me, to understand that I came into this life with my mother, but I would leave this life alone. So I better be happy with the choices that I made. And that's how it hap"}
{"id": "1144701500", "date": "2022-12-22", "guest": "Sheryl Lee Ralph", "title": "From 'Dreamgirls' to 'Abbott Elementary,' Sheryl Lee Ralph forged her own path", "question_index": 63, "text": "Shortly after we recorded this interview, Sheryl Lee Ralph won an Emmy for her performance as a teacher in the ABC comedy series \"Abbott Elementary.\" Season 2 resumes January 4. Previous episodes are streaming on the ABC website and on Hulu. After we take a short break, our film critic Justin Chang will tell us about the films he thinks are the best films of the year. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having me."}
{"id": "1144707146", "date": "2022-12-26", "guest": "Steven Spielberg", "title": "Steven Spielberg was a fearful kid who found solace in storytelling", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're ending 2022 with a few of our favorite interviews of the year. Today - Steven Spielberg. I spoke with him last month. It was a great time to interview him because his new movie, \"The Fabelmans,\" is a personal one. He says all his movies are personal in the sense they come from his experiences, observations and imagination. But this one is personal in a more direct way. \"The Fabelmans\" is a semi-autobiographical film based on Spielberg's childhood and teenage years and tells the story, in a fictionalized way, of how he fell in love with movies and became a filmmaker. The movie is also about tensions in his family during those years and why his parents divorced when he was 19. Spielberg has directed over 30 movies, including \"Jaws,\" \"E.T.,\" \"Close Encounters Of The Third Kind,\" the \"Indiana Jones\" films, \"The Color Purple,\" \"Jurassic Park,\" \"Schindler's List,\" \"Saving Private Ryan,\" \"Lincoln,\" and the recent adaptation of \"West Side Story.\" His movies have grossed more at the box office than any filmmaker. And as Michael Schulman wrote in The New Yorker, Spielberg has shaped nearly half a century of the American popular imagination. \"The Fabelmans\" is streaming, available for rent or purchase. Steven Spielberg, welcome to FRESH AIR. I'm so glad we have this opportunity to talk. I wasn't sure I'd ever have that opportunity to talk with you. And congratulations on this film, which I really enjoyed. Let's start with \"The Greatest Show On Earth.\" It's a circus movie with some very disturbing things in it. And I'll preface this by saying the first movie I ever saw was \"20,000 Leagues Under The Sea,\" and I was probably around 6, the same age you were when you saw \"The Greatest Show On Earth.\" And I walked - we walked in late, which people used to do at that time. And the first thing I saw was Kirk Douglas wrestling with an octopus underwater. And I was terrified, and I begged my mother to just take me home. So tell us about what terrified you about \"The Greatest Show On Earth,\" a circus movie directed by Cecil B. DeMille.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1144707146", "date": "2022-12-26", "guest": "Steven Spielberg", "title": "Steven Spielberg was a fearful kid who found solace in storytelling", "question_index": 1, "text": "So in your semi-autobiographical film, after seeing that movie, Sammy, who's your alter ego in the film, starts to recreate what terrified him with Lionel toy trains and, you know, crashing into things. And then he starts filming scenes like that. Why did you want to recreate something that was most terrifying? Like, I wanted to just forget \"20,000 Leagues Under The Sea,\" which obviously I haven't done. But why did you want to keep creating it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first of all, you know, I sympathize with you. I, too, saw \"20,000 Leagues Under The Sea,\" with James Mason and Kirk Douglas and Peter Lorre. And that sequence with the giant squid attacking the"}
{"id": "1144707146", "date": "2022-12-26", "guest": "Steven Spielberg", "title": "Steven Spielberg was a fearful kid who found solace in storytelling", "question_index": 2, "text": "Among the things you're famous for is, you know, movies and TV about World War II, including, of course, \"Saving Private Ryan\" and \"Schindler's List.\" I mean, World War II was terrifying, and you depicted one of the most terrifying aspects of it, which was D-Day in \"Saving Private Ryan.\" Do you see that as a continuation of what you did when you were a young boy, making little films about things that terrified you, like the - recreating the train crash scene from \"The Greatest Show On Earth?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I don't know, because, remember, I'm a kid. And I think that when I saw that movie for the first time and I had a Lionel electric train set - and by actually crashing the train into th"}
{"id": "1144707146", "date": "2022-12-26", "guest": "Steven Spielberg", "title": "Steven Spielberg was a fearful kid who found solace in storytelling", "question_index": 3, "text": "So when your father told you stories and when his friends who were also veterans told you stories, were they stories about, like, heroism, about, you know, bonding with fellow soldiers, or were they stories about the horrors of war?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, there was a lot - I was very much in those days, when I was, you know, 12, 13, 14, being influenced by television. And - you know, and there were a lot of movies on \"The Late Show.\" Yo"}
{"id": "1144707146", "date": "2022-12-26", "guest": "Steven Spielberg", "title": "Steven Spielberg was a fearful kid who found solace in storytelling", "question_index": 4, "text": "So when you were growing up, there was still a draft. And you - when you were of draft age, there was still a draft. What did you think - I mean, you're of the Vietnam War generation. So when you were eligible for the draft and stood the chance of being sent to Vietnam, whether you wanted to go or not, what did you think about the possibility of actually fighting in a war?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, sometimes it was the things I was just sort of eavesdropping about. Sometimes my dad would have reunions with other members of his fighter squadron and - the 490th Squadron. And they'd"}
{"id": "1144707146", "date": "2022-12-26", "guest": "Steven Spielberg", "title": "Steven Spielberg was a fearful kid who found solace in storytelling", "question_index": 5, "text": "One-A meant that you were, like, next up on the list.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was - I would never have gone to Canada, but I tried everything I could not to be drafted, even though I was subjected to two or three physicals. I kept taking physicals because I had a draft counse"}
{"id": "1144707146", "date": "2022-12-26", "guest": "Steven Spielberg", "title": "Steven Spielberg was a fearful kid who found solace in storytelling", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yeah, well, and the story that took your mind off having to fight in war was a story about possible nuclear war and all the things that could go wrong and lead to it. So it's funny that that was distracting you from the possibility of going to war yourself. So how did you finally get out of being drafted?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had a student deferment, a 2-S deferment as a lot of us had - most of us had. But when my grades dropped below a certain level, my GPA dropped below a certain level, I was - I lost my 2-S deferment,"}
{"id": "1144707146", "date": "2022-12-26", "guest": "Steven Spielberg", "title": "Steven Spielberg was a fearful kid who found solace in storytelling", "question_index": 7, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Steven Spielberg. And his new film, which he co-wrote and directed, is called \"The Fabelmans.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, because something called the lottery was enacted. I was in college at the time. And they were announcing the lottery, and we all ran to a friend's apartment - about 15, maybe 20 of us. And we tu"}
{"id": "1144707146", "date": "2022-12-26", "guest": "Steven Spielberg", "title": "Steven Spielberg was a fearful kid who found solace in storytelling", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Steven Spielberg. His new movie, \"The Fabelmans,\" which he directed and co-wrote, is based on his early life when he was learning to make films - when he was a boy and a teenager, making home movies and casting movies with friends and classmates. So with all the fear that you had about war and fighting in war and your father's friends occasionally leaning over and sobbing, thinking about the war, why did you want to make war movies?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, because something called the lottery was enacted. I was in college at the time. And they were announcing the lottery, and we all ran to a friend's apartment - about 15, maybe 20 of us. And we tu"}
{"id": "1144707146", "date": "2022-12-26", "guest": "Steven Spielberg", "title": "Steven Spielberg was a fearful kid who found solace in storytelling", "question_index": 9, "text": "Oh, and it's so - it's - especially for its time, it's so graphic in a way that, like, the World War II movies that you grew up with were not. You'd see people kind of, you know, step on grenades in those movies, and their bodies would be thrown into the air. But you didn't see like a severed limb. You didn't see another soldier carrying off a limb. You didn't see people throwing up on the boat - you know, on those little boats heading to the actual beach on D-Day. You didn't see, you know, bloody bodies in the water. You didn't see the true chaos of war. So I guess part of what you wanted to do was really show the complete horror of being in a scene like that and the disorientation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I just think I was attracted to the sacrifice and to the gallantry. War kind of glorifies heroism, and Hollywood glorified war. You know, I knew, based on the stories my dad and his friends "}
{"id": "1144707146", "date": "2022-12-26", "guest": "Steven Spielberg", "title": "Steven Spielberg was a fearful kid who found solace in storytelling", "question_index": 10, "text": "Did you fear they wouldn't see it because it was too disturbing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I was willing to sacrifice the funding that my own company was provided with by financial backers who believed in myself and David Geffen and Jeffrey Katzenberg when we first formed DreamWorks. I"}
{"id": "1144707146", "date": "2022-12-26", "guest": "Steven Spielberg", "title": "Steven Spielberg was a fearful kid who found solace in storytelling", "question_index": 11, "text": "I know that you didn't storyboard the D-Day scene, or at least that's what I've read. And so a lot of it was kind of figured out on the spot. And I don't know how you do that - how you could do that because there's so much chaos. But it needs to be, you know, like, controlled chaos in a way. You need to know what you're shooting. So how did you - how do you improvise a massive scene like that, with explosions and dead bodies and bodies floating in the water and things blowing up? I mean, there's safety precautions you have to take. You have to need - you need to know where the camera is. And the crew and the actors need to know what they're doing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was afraid that the first people who saw it would just say, it's too bloody. Don't put yourself through it."}
{"id": "1144707146", "date": "2022-12-26", "guest": "Steven Spielberg", "title": "Steven Spielberg was a fearful kid who found solace in storytelling", "question_index": 12, "text": "You know, you mentioned that when you were a kid and you were making movies and a teenager that you didn't storyboard your movies. Do you feel like you created techniques when you were coming of age - filmmaking techniques that you still use because you weren't - you were basically self-taught.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the first thing was I didn't shoot it all in a couple of days. I mean, obviously - it took 25 days. It's a 25-minute sequence, and it took 25 days to shoot 25 minutes. So I was only shooting a m"}
{"id": "1144707146", "date": "2022-12-26", "guest": "Steven Spielberg", "title": "Steven Spielberg was a fearful kid who found solace in storytelling", "question_index": 13, "text": "I'm glad you got Val Lewton in there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I didn't go to film school. I was self-taught. But I had great teachers, you know? All my influencers were the directors and the writers of the movies I was watching in theaters and on televisio"}
{"id": "1144707146", "date": "2022-12-26", "guest": "Steven Spielberg", "title": "Steven Spielberg was a fearful kid who found solace in storytelling", "question_index": 14, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Steven Spielberg. His new movie, \"The Fabelmans,\" is a semi-autobiographical film about how he became a filmmaker and what his life was like when he was growing up. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1144707146", "date": "2022-12-26", "guest": "Steven Spielberg", "title": "Steven Spielberg was a fearful kid who found solace in storytelling", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Steven Spielberg. His new film, \"The Fabelmans,\" is based on his early years as a boy and a teenager, when he first saw movies and started making them. Part of your new movie is about, you know, growing up Jewish and, when you moved to a largely gentile suburb of California, facing antisemitism at school. I know you lost over 15 relatives in the Holocaust who were - you know, relatives who were still in Europe. And your grandmother taught English to Holocaust survivors in America. And you knew Holocaust survivors who had numbers tattooed on their arms from their days in concentration camps and death camps. And you've said that's how you learned to count. That's how you learned math. How did that work?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1144707146", "date": "2022-12-26", "guest": "Steven Spielberg", "title": "Steven Spielberg was a fearful kid who found solace in storytelling", "question_index": 16, "text": "Yeah. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's not how I learned math, it's how I learned my numbers. It's a very kind of perverse version of \"Sesame Street\" where I'd be sitting at these tables - I was just a kid. I was, like, 3 years "}
{"id": "1144707146", "date": "2022-12-26", "guest": "Steven Spielberg", "title": "Steven Spielberg was a fearful kid who found solace in storytelling", "question_index": 17, "text": "Did you understand at the time that those numbers were basically the ID numbers tattooed on arms because, you know, the Jews were not humans to the Nazis, and they were just going to be worked to death or just, you know, put in ovens? And so this was just, like, the math to keep count of them and identify them. Did you understand the horror of that when you were learning math on their arms?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And they were old. And they were speaking - they were mainly speaking either Yiddish or they were speaking German or they were speaking Hungarian - mainly Hungarian. And I didn't know it then what the"}
{"id": "1144707146", "date": "2022-12-26", "guest": "Steven Spielberg", "title": "Steven Spielberg was a fearful kid who found solace in storytelling", "question_index": 18, "text": "You said when you were growing up, you were afraid of everything. Once you learned about the Holocaust and realized that you'd been, you know, in contact with so many Holocaust survivors, did the whole idea of the Holocaust, like, terrify you and haunt you? And did you worry about something like that ever happening again?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I didn't know anything about that. I didn't know who they were. And I'm sure - you don't sit a 3-year-old kid down and explain the Holocaust to them. I - there was no way I'd be able to comprehend"}
{"id": "1144707146", "date": "2022-12-26", "guest": "Steven Spielberg", "title": "Steven Spielberg was a fearful kid who found solace in storytelling", "question_index": 19, "text": "How did it change you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, the first time I really became - my parents talked a lot about the Holocaust, but it was never called the Holocaust. They never referred to it as the Shoah. They always called it the great m"}
{"id": "1144707146", "date": "2022-12-26", "guest": "Steven Spielberg", "title": "Steven Spielberg was a fearful kid who found solace in storytelling", "question_index": 20, "text": "Part of what your film is about is, you know, growing up Jewish. You grew up in an Orthodox Jewish family. What did that mean? Did your family keep kosher, go to synagogue on days that were not the High Holy Days, observe the Sabbath? What did it mean in practical terms?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I became obsessed with learning more about it. And \"Schindler's List\" was the culmination of all of the interest that - from the seventh grade, I had just been obsessed with it. Nothing was being taug"}
{"id": "1144707146", "date": "2022-12-26", "guest": "Steven Spielberg", "title": "Steven Spielberg was a fearful kid who found solace in storytelling", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, Terry, I grew up in an Orthodox Jewish family only when my grandparents were visiting our home."}
{"id": "1144707146", "date": "2022-12-26", "guest": "Steven Spielberg", "title": "Steven Spielberg was a fearful kid who found solace in storytelling", "question_index": 22, "text": "You use the word hypocrisy. I mean, you are still very Jewish. And I don't know if that means mostly culturally Jewish or, you know, observant Jewish because, you know, a lot of Jewish people are more cultural than observant in their identification with Judaism.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The second they went back to Cincinnati, Ohio, the lobster and the clams came back in. The milchig and the fleishig - the meat and the milk - was being mixed. Everything changed. So I kind of grew up "}
{"id": "1144707146", "date": "2022-12-26", "guest": "Steven Spielberg", "title": "Steven Spielberg was a fearful kid who found solace in storytelling", "question_index": 23, "text": "Let's take a short break, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Steven Spielberg. And his new film, which he co-wrote and directed, is called \"The Fabelmans.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I - you know, for a long time, I was in denial that I was Jewish when I was, especially in elementary school and part of high school, because it was alienating to identify and to decla"}
{"id": "1144707146", "date": "2022-12-26", "guest": "Steven Spielberg", "title": "Steven Spielberg was a fearful kid who found solace in storytelling", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Steven Spielberg. His new movie, \"The Fabelmans,\" which he directed and co-wrote, is based on his early life when he was learning to make films when he was a boy and a teenager, making home movies and casting movies with friends and classmates. In the movie, you learn - and I won't say how you learn this - but you learn that your mother has been having an affair and is in love with your father's best friend, who's also on his team at work. And you think of him as your uncle. And it's very disturbing when you find out that he is in love with your mother and your mother is in love with him. And then your mother, you know, leaves your father to be with this other man. And it was similar in your life. How did you learn, if I may ask, that your mother was, you know, romantically involved with the person you thought of as an uncle?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I - you know, for a long time, I was in denial that I was Jewish when I was, especially in elementary school and part of high school, because it was alienating to identify and to decla"}
{"id": "1144707146", "date": "2022-12-26", "guest": "Steven Spielberg", "title": "Steven Spielberg was a fearful kid who found solace in storytelling", "question_index": 25, "text": "I can imagine. When your parents divorced, though, you blamed your father for the divorce. And I guess I don't understand why you blamed your father, knowing that your mother was in love with someone else.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I learned it at a very young age when I was 16. And I learned it not because of anything I observed with my naked eyes. It was something that I could only see on film. And I don't want"}
{"id": "1144707146", "date": "2022-12-26", "guest": "Steven Spielberg", "title": "Steven Spielberg was a fearful kid who found solace in storytelling", "question_index": 26, "text": "So he made this, like, self-sacrificing act by taking the blame for the divorce. And you believe that, and you were estranged from him for years, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I blamed my dad because my dad went to great lengths to make it safe for my mom to move back to Arizona and start a new life by basically falling on the sword and telling all of us that it was"}
{"id": "1144707146", "date": "2022-12-26", "guest": "Steven Spielberg", "title": "Steven Spielberg was a fearful kid who found solace in storytelling", "question_index": 27, "text": "That's heartbreaking. I mean, that could have been avoided. Like, you both knew about your mother's other relationship, and you were both keeping it secret from each other. You - like, you both knew and you wouldn't share it with each other. I don't know. It's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah, I - when I say - estranged is a strong word. I always talked to my dad. We talked, you know? But we talked on, like, my birthday or we talked when I was having a movie premiere, and he wou"}
{"id": "1144707146", "date": "2022-12-26", "guest": "Steven Spielberg", "title": "Steven Spielberg was a fearful kid who found solace in storytelling", "question_index": 28, "text": "And your mother never stepped in and said, it was really me who left.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And turning my story into a motion picture is never going to help me assuage my guilt about how I separated emotionally from my dad for all those years. But my dad and I made up for it. And my dad "}
{"id": "1144707146", "date": "2022-12-26", "guest": "Steven Spielberg", "title": "Steven Spielberg was a fearful kid who found solace in storytelling", "question_index": 29, "text": "That's a shame, too, because you had this image of what a man needs to be and, you know, this stereotypical kind of, I think, out-of-date image of how the man should be boss and be powerful and not wear an apron. And at the same time, I mean, your father fought in World War II. He was a veteran, and he had a really important role in the war. And also he was, like, super smart. He was a computer engineer, and he built - he designed things that led to modern-day computers. So, I mean, he was, in his world, very powerful and very smart and very skilled and very, you know, more than capable. So it's kind of a shame you thought of him that way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no, she did later. She confessed that to - I mean, later, of course, she did. When I was grown up and she had the restaurant, we talked - we would talk about it all the time. But, you know, I had "}
{"id": "1144707146", "date": "2022-12-26", "guest": "Steven Spielberg", "title": "Steven Spielberg was a fearful kid who found solace in storytelling", "question_index": 30, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Steven Spielberg. And his new film, which he co-wrote and directed, is called \"The Fabelmans.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's a shame. I lost 15 years. He was always my father, but I lost 15 years of deep friendship. But, as I said, we made it up, you know, with, like, 28 years of closeness."}
{"id": "1144707146", "date": "2022-12-26", "guest": "Steven Spielberg", "title": "Steven Spielberg was a fearful kid who found solace in storytelling", "question_index": 31, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Steven Spielberg. His new movie, \"The Fabelmans,\" which he directed and co-wrote, is based on his early life when he was learning to make films - when he was a boy and a teenager, making home movies and casting movies with friends and classmates. You know, in \"The Fabelmans,\" the teenage version of your alter ego makes a film of the annual school beach party in 1964 and shows it at the prom. And, you know, at the beach party, there's, like - there's races. There's volleyball. People are swimming. People are flirting with each other, playing pranks on each other. Some seagulls, you know, do their thing on people's faces. And then, you - so then you show it at the prom. And one of the kids in the film who's actually depicted in a very glorified way is so angry with the young filmmaker 'cause he doesn't like how he's depicted. He thinks, I'm not really that person. Was there a moment in your life when you realized that being behind the camera gave you the power to portray somebody as, you know, an almost, like, mythical, godlike figure or to kind of take them down a few notches?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's a shame. I lost 15 years. He was always my father, but I lost 15 years of deep friendship. But, as I said, we made it up, you know, with, like, 28 years of closeness."}
{"id": "1144707146", "date": "2022-12-26", "guest": "Steven Spielberg", "title": "Steven Spielberg was a fearful kid who found solace in storytelling", "question_index": 32, "text": "You mentioned the scary discoveries that you made through shooting movies. Can you mention one?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, the camera isn't just a tool to - you know, through which to tell a story or by which to tell a story. A camera is - could be a defensive weapon. And I think I was so sort of ostracize"}
{"id": "1144707146", "date": "2022-12-26", "guest": "Steven Spielberg", "title": "Steven Spielberg was a fearful kid who found solace in storytelling", "question_index": 33, "text": "I've saved this question for the end because it's a very, very important question - very profound, if I might brag. So are you aware, and I assume you may be, that a lot of porn films satirize the titles of real films or satirize the films themselves. And when John Waters was on our show - this was an interview years ago - he said his favorite was \"Shaving Ryan's Privates.\" And there's actually not only a porn film named that, there's a documentary about porn films that satirize real films, and that film, that documentary, is titled \"Shaving Ryan's Privates.\" Did you know about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, there's many different discoveries. But one of the discoveries that happens all the time is that - and this is about acting - is that what looks subtle to the eye when I'm standing next to the cam"}
{"id": "1144707146", "date": "2022-12-26", "guest": "Steven Spielberg", "title": "Steven Spielberg was a fearful kid who found solace in storytelling", "question_index": 34, "text": "I told you it was profound.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Not until this very moment. Wow."}
{"id": "1144707146", "date": "2022-12-26", "guest": "Steven Spielberg", "title": "Steven Spielberg was a fearful kid who found solace in storytelling", "question_index": 35, "text": "Well, speaking of antisemitism, I mean, we're living in a period now - there's, like, a horrible resurgence in the U.S. Did you ever think you would see this in the U.S.?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, a lot of my films have had, you know, funny and sometimes a little bit of antisemitic uses of the title. So I just never heard that one before."}
{"id": "1144707146", "date": "2022-12-26", "guest": "Steven Spielberg", "title": "Steven Spielberg was a fearful kid who found solace in storytelling", "question_index": 36, "text": "And have you been the target of it as a famous filmmaker?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not at this level, no. I mean, antisemitism has always been with us. It's always been there. It's - sometimes it ebbs and flows in terms of - there was a lot of Holocaust denial, which has helped lead"}
{"id": "1144707146", "date": "2022-12-26", "guest": "Steven Spielberg", "title": "Steven Spielberg was a fearful kid who found solace in storytelling", "question_index": 37, "text": "Yeah. Steven Spielberg, thank you so much. And continue to make movies that give us so much kind of pleasure and also pain.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm sure I have, but I don't read that stuff. But I'm sure I have."}
{"id": "1144707146", "date": "2022-12-26", "guest": "Steven Spielberg", "title": "Steven Spielberg was a fearful kid who found solace in storytelling", "question_index": 38, "text": "Steven Spielberg directed and co-wrote his new film, \"The Fabelmans.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll hear another one of our favorite interviews of the year, an interview with Sterlin Harjo, the writer, director and co-creator of the FX on Hulu comedy-drama series \"Reservation Dogs.\" It's about a group of teenagers on an Oklahoma Indian reservation. The Peabody Award-winning show is the first and only TV series on which every writer, director and series regular is Indigenous. I hope you'll join us. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley, Susan Nyakundi and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks, Terry. This was a pleasure for me."}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today, we continue our series featuring some of our favorite interviews of the year with Sterlin Harjo, the co-creator of the FX series \"Reservation Dogs.\" Season 1 and 2 are streaming on Hulu. Here's the interview we recorded in September.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 1, "text": "If you haven't seen the hit TV series \"Reservation Dogs,\" the title should give you a sense of it. Set on an Indian reservation in Oklahoma, it's about a group of teenagers and the people surrounding them. The quirky way some of the characters constantly quote pop culture and use it as reference points seems to owe a debt to Quentin Tarantino films. The series is part comedy and part drama about teenagers wanting to break away from the reservation and all the seeming dead ends it represents while also finding reasons to stay. The characters face generational differences on the reservation and the confusion of growing up caught between traditional culture and pop culture, the spirit world and rap music. The series shows the importance of Native traditions while also mocking how tradition can be turned into sanctimonious pop culture cliches. My guest, Sterlin Harjo, is the showrunner and a writer and director on the series, which he co-created with Taika Waititi. Harjo belongs to the Seminole and Muskogee Nations. He's made independent films and documentaries about Indians in Oklahoma where he grew up and continues to live. He also co-founded the Indigenous comedy group called The 1491s, a reference to the year before Christopher Columbus landed in what is now America. \"Reservation Dogs\" is the first and only TV series where every writer, director and series regular is Indigenous. The second season of the FX show is now streaming on Hulu. Let's start with a scene from the first season. One of the teenagers, named Bear, has been planning to leave the reservation with his friends and start a new life in California. He's just been knocked down after being hit with paintballs by a rival group of teens. When he opens his eyes, he sees an Indian warrior from the spirit world mounted on his horse and dressed in the kind of traditional warrior clothes you'd expect to see in a Western. It's a funny scene, but the advice the spirit gives at the end is pretty good advice. Bear is played by D'Pharaoh Woon-A-Tai, and the Spirit is played by Dallas Goldtooth.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 2, "text": "I love that scene so much, and I love the series. Sterlin Harjo, welcome to FRESH AIR, and thank you for \"Reservation Dogs.\" Can you talk a little bit about...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Spirit) Being a warrior, it's not always easy. You and your thuggy-ass friends, what are you doing for your people? It's easy to be bad. But it's hard to be a warrior with dignity. Remember that. "}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 3, "text": "...Coming up with a way to both satirize pop culture images of Indians and also just, like, come up with really comedic Indian characters but also to create a sense of understanding of the importance of traditions? It's a lot to do all at once.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 4, "text": "Oh, thank you so much for that. You made my day.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So thanks for making my dreams come true today."}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 5, "text": "While we're on the subject of permission...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. But, yeah, you know, I think that that character in that scene is crucial. And I think, you know, most of the time, people are very precious with Native people and, like, you know, you don't - t"}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 6, "text": "...I had asked you before we started, like, what word you like to use. Do you like to use Indian, Native American, Indigenous? And the term that you don't want to use is Native American. But some people say that, you know, as a white person, like, white people shouldn't use the word Indian. So before everybody kind of gets annoyed with me or I get annoyed with myself or you get annoyed with me...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 7, "text": "Just help me out here. Like, what works?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Right."}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For me - I mean, look, I grew up - my grandma said Indian, so I'm not here to change what my grandma said. And it's what I know. I'm sorry that Christopher Columbus got it wrong."}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 9, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But that's what we call ourselves, you know? And, like, we also - I also say Native, and I say Indigenous. Just depending on where I'm at and who I'm talking to, I will - those are all interchangeable"}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 10, "text": "All right. So the series is called \"Reservation Dogs,\" an homage to \"Reservoir Dogs,\" Quentin Tarantino's film. What did that film mean to you and the sensibility that he created in it, which was really something new?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And Native American is just a mouthful. You know, I don't want to have to sit around and - it just - you know, it wastes time."}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 11, "text": "Absolutely, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it came out when I was in college, and it was right as I discovered that I could be a filmmaker. And, you know, there's something about Tarantino's love for cinema. It's like - that's the same thin"}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 12, "text": "Another thing that got me, like, right from the start is the series opens in Episode 1 with an older DJ, a Native DJ, who I think is on the reservation radio station, introducing the Iggy and the Stooges classic punk rock recording \"I Wanna Be Your Dog\". And that was just - between the title of \"Reservation Dogs\" and Iggy and the Stooges, I thought, yeah, I'm going to watch this", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then, it was, well, if we're going to have this show where these kids are living through and constantly referencing pop culture, like, we have to tip our hat to the master of that."}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 13, "text": ". Why did you want to start with that song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then, it was, well, if we're going to have this show where these kids are living through and constantly referencing pop culture, like, we have to tip our hat to the master of that."}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 14, "text": "Oh, no, I didn't realize that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, you know, like - well, first of all, it references dogs. But second, I wanted it - by the way, that's my voice. I'm the radio DJ."}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 15, "text": "Oh, that's great", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 17, "text": "When you were growing up, were you growing up, like, on the reservation or near the reservation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, but - you know, I - it references dogs, but also, what it really references to me is this is shaking everything up. You hadn't seen a Native story on TV like this. And this is going to be punk r"}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 18, "text": "You know, in talking about the influence of pop culture on the characters, on the young characters in your show, on some of the older characters, too, the younger characters are so influenced by Black pop culture, by rap, their style of speaking. I found that very interesting. And I'm wondering if there were many Black people where you were growing up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, right now, there are - there's the - like right now I'm - live on the Muskogee Reservation, which is part of Tulsa. Through a lot of complicated government policy and interactions with tri"}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 19, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Sterlin Harjo, the co-creator, as well as a writer and director of the series \"Reservation Dogs\" streaming on FX on Hulu. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, for sure. I mean, it was, you know, mainly made up of white, Native and Black people. And all of those cultures mix and collide and, you know, come together. You know, the people in the show, th"}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Sterlin Harjo, the co-creator, as well as a writer and director of the series \"Reservation Dogs\". It's part comedy, part drama, about teenagers growing up on an Indian reservation in Oklahoma, wanting to escape the dead ends they face on the reservation. It's an FX series streaming on Hulu. So in this series, you know, dead loved ones return as ghosts. What are your experiences with keeping up a relationship with, you know, family, friends who have died and you want to keep in your life? Were you brought up with the idea that they are still spirits or ghosts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, for sure. I mean, it was, you know, mainly made up of white, Native and Black people. And all of those cultures mix and collide and, you know, come together. You know, the people in the show, th"}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 21, "text": "In one of the episodes, Bear is learning how to be a roofer and isn't doing very well at it at the moment. And he's kind of brooding in a Johnny-on-the-spot or an outhouse, whatever you want to say it is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I think that part of growing up in - with Muskogee and Seminole culture is death is such a part of our experience. You know, it's very community driven. You know, your cousins are like your "}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 22, "text": "Port-a-potty. Yeah, exactly. And the Indian spirit warrior takes the outhouse adjoining it and starts talking to Bear. And it's a really funny scene. But it has some really beautiful moments, too, because toward the end of that scene, the Indian spirit says, you know, we do so many things to tell the people we've lost that we love them, you know? We cut our hair. We put their faces and names on our T-shirts. And we want to tell them we'll miss them, but we'll be OK without them. And I thought, that's really - that's actually very beautiful in the middle of this pretty funny scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 23, "text": "Oh, God. I hadn't thought of that. That's true.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Yeah, like, the sort of confessional scene. Like, it feels like a Catholic confession, but they're in this port-a-potty."}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 24, "text": "They're both in these little booths, except that they're toilets.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 25, "text": "You know, we were talking about how many funerals you attended growing up on a reservation. I'm wondering about suicide. You know, one of the pivotal parts of the story in \"Reservation Dogs\" is one of the teenagers - one of this group of teenagers' dear friends, you know, died by suicide. And they're all totally shaken by it. And it disrupts - it just changes their thinking about everything. Did you know - and I know that there is a pretty high suicide rate in the Native population, in part, I think, because of poverty and of all of the, you know, generations of oppression. So I'm wondering if you had to deal with a lot of suicide and how that was different from dealing with other forms of death.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Yeah. I mean, I think that it was - kind of goes to what I was speaking about. I mean, I think that in our communities, you face death head-on. And it's only when you're avoiding the fact that "}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 26, "text": "Daniel is the teenager in the series who dies by suicide.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I think that, you know, in our community, sometimes suicide can be very taboo. And it's - you know, like in a lot of communities, I think that, you know, it's sort of not talked about as"}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 27, "text": "Let's take another break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Sterlin Harjo, the co-creator, as well as a writer and director, of the series \"Reservation Dogs.\" This FX series is streaming on Hulu. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And, like, we all have one or two or three. And so when I brought those kids together, the actors together, and we were talking, we told stories about the real people that we'd all lost just to"}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 28, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Sterlin Harjo, the co-creator as well as a writer and director of the series \"Reservation Dogs.\" It's part comedy, part drama about teenagers growing up on a Native reservation in Oklahoma wanting to escape the dead ends they face on the reservation. They're frustrated and alienated and caught between what's left of traditional Native culture on the reservation and pop culture. \"Reservation Dogs\" has an all-Indigenous team of writers, directors and leading actors. When we left off, we were talking about the traditions surrounding death and mourning on the reservation where Harjo grew up. One of the episodes takes place as Elora, one of the teenaged main characters, is at home where the community has crowded together. Everyone has come to say goodbye to Elora's grandmother, who raised her and is on her deathbed. As everyone says their goodbyes to the dying elder, they sing, tell stories, cook and eat together. In this scene, Elora asks her friend Cheese, another one of the teenaged main characters, to say a prayer before they start their meal. Cheese is played by Lane Factor. Elora is played by Devery Jacobs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Chill down, I'm doing great. Doing well is pretty vague. Single mama, I want to get that number. You look as strong as you did before. But, you know, old time, one to one - class historian. "}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 29, "text": "That's a scene from \"Reservation Dogs.\" I love the way, like, you know, \"Star Trek\" kind of, like, seamlessly blends into this prayer. It's all, like, one thing to this 15-year-old.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As characters, speaking Creek)."}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 30, "text": "They're all", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 31, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 32, "text": "They're all part of his belief system. And I love this character, this character of 15-year-old Cheese. And just as he said, Lord, you know, he, she, they, whatever pronouns they use - when he introduces himself to people, it's always, and I use the pronouns he, him, his.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 33, "text": "And, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, right."}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 34, "text": "When he says that to people, they mostly have no idea what he's talking about. And I just think that's - you know, it's just really, really funny. Can you talk to me a little bit about that, about having him say that and why you did that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 35, "text": "And he's so good, and I love his voice. I listen to voices a lot. He's got a great voice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean, I think it's like - you know, it's an endearing quality. It's like - I think that there's such a debate over, do we say this or don't we, in this country and world. And here you have thi"}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 36, "text": "Oh, this is \"The Fablemans\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. He's great. And he - you know, he never had acted. And he had been playing too much video games, and his mom had made him take an acting class. And so he begrudgingly took this acting class and"}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 37, "text": "You're too young, probably, to have grown up on a diet of Westerns on TV. But did you watch many Westerns when you were growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Yeah, \"The Fableman\" (ph). So pretty amazing."}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 38, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then, we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Sterlin Harjo, the co-creator as well as a writer and director of the series \"Reservation Dogs\" streaming on FX on Hulu. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, my dad watched Westerns, so, yeah, we watched some. You know, there was a way to sort of separate what was happening in the Western for me. Like, when you grow up and your grandma and your m"}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 39, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Sterlin Harjo, the co-creator as well as a writer and director of the series \"Reservation Dogs.\" It's part comedy, part drama about teenagers growing up on an Indian reservation in Oklahoma wanting to escape the dead ends they face on the reservation. It's an FX series, now streaming on Hulu. Can you tell us something about your parents?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, my dad watched Westerns, so, yeah, we watched some. You know, there was a way to sort of separate what was happening in the Western for me. Like, when you grow up and your grandma and your m"}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 40, "text": "Oh, because one of your main characters learns to be a roofer and then bonds with one of the people teaching them how.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. My parents - my dad roofed houses when I was young."}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 41, "text": "Did you learn how to fight?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And I've never seen that on TV, you know, or movies, something that took place on a roof like that. And, like, it was such a part of - my uncles were roofers, my dad. My dad also taught martial"}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 42, "text": "Doing what?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. I was a competitive fighter growing up from the age of 4. I think there's video of my first fight. My dad still teaches martial arts to this day in rural Oklahoma. And my mom worked for the tri"}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 43, "text": "Is she still alive?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she worked - she was a secretary for the chief of the Seminole Nation when I was young. You know, now what she does with the Bureau of Indian Affairs is she kind of oversees - like, there was so"}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 44, "text": "She must be so proud of you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She is."}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 45, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, man. My parents are so overjoyed about the show. My dad said something to me the other day after the first season came out. And I was like, I can't - you know, it doesn't matter that we didn't get"}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 46, "text": "Something you didn't have when you were growing up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...On social media of them dressed as the Reservation Dogs."}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 47, "text": "Of the stories that you were told when you were growing up, did any of those stories get handed down through the generations dating back to the Trail of Tears and the forced removal of Natives from the land, forced removal by the U.S. government?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. I didn't have that, you know? And it might have made some sort of difference if I had. I didn't have that, you know? But I did - what I did have was the best storytellers in the world sitting i"}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 48, "text": "What language did you speak at home?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For sure. I mean, my great-grandmother, who didn't speak a lot of English - her name was Izora Bruner. She spoke English, but she - you know, it was like she spoke more confidently in Muskogee languag"}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 49, "text": "You know, it's funny how your life, like the life of so - the lives of so many Native Americans, are so similar to the lives of immigrants in America, except you were here first.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "English. I mean, you know, like, my - I mentioned my grandmother. My great-grandmother - she spoke fluent Muskogee and her husband, my great-grandfather. And they had a lawyer that encouraged them to "}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 50, "text": "It is your native land.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 51, "text": "Do you think about it that way, that it's like the immigrant experience in, like, your own land?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 52, "text": "You know, one more thing. The comedy group that you co-founded, the 1491s, you know, is named after the year before Columbus landed in what is now America. What were you taught in school about Christopher Columbus?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For sure. I mean, I feel that. Like, you know, listening to, you know, like, second-generation people talking about their parents being immigrants and coming over, a lot of very similar things between"}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 53, "text": "Was this a Native school?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, Christopher Columbus was a hero, you know? Like, it wasn't until I got to college..."}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 54, "text": "Sterlin Harjo, it's really just been great to talk with you. Thank you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I mean, it was all mixed. And, you know, he was a hero. He was - he found this place. It wasn't until I got to college, really, that I - you know, and read \"A People's History Of The United States"}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 55, "text": "...For this interview. Thank you for the series. I really love it. And I hope there's a Season 3.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. It's been great."}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 56, "text": "Sterlin Harjo is the co-creator and showrunner, as well as a writer and director, of the FX series \"Reservation Dogs.\" Season 1 and 2 are streaming on Hulu. We recorded our interview in September.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Awesome. Thank you so much."}
{"id": "1145596961", "date": "2022-12-27", "guest": "Dallas Goldtooth", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 57, "text": "We'll continue our series of some of our favorite interviews of the year tomorrow. After we take a short break, our rock critic Ken Tucker will have his year-end wrap up. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) Yeah. Oh, so bona fide. Yeah. Oh, so bona fide. Yeah. Oh, so born to ride. Oh. Hey, oh. Yeah. I'm a made man, but I'm still a menace. Have my main man rearrange your face for the dentist. Yo"}
{"id": "1145598765", "date": "2022-12-28", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today, we continue our series of some of our favorite interviews of the year with comic, actor and writer Jerrod Carmichael. This year, he won an Emmy for his HBO comedy special called \"Rothaniel.\" What does that mean, right? We soon find out. The special is all about secrets. It starts like this.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1145598765", "date": "2022-12-28", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Carmichael delivers on that promise to reveal personal secrets - about his real name, his family tree and his sexual orientation. It's a lot. Toward the end, when he's interacting with the audience, his show starts looking like a hybrid of a comedy show and a therapy session. Carmichael has done two other HBO comedy specials, \"Love At The Store,\" directed by Spike Lee, and \"8,\" directed by Bo Burnham. Carmichael was also the creator and star of the sitcom \"The Carmichael Show\" that ran on NBC for three seasons. That show portrayed a fictional version of Carmichael's family. Many episodes portray them disagreeing with each other on complicated and uncomfortable issues, like, is it still OK to enjoy Bill Cosby's comedy? Is it OK to have a gun in the house? How do you eulogize a bad father? Is it OK to take the morning after pill if a condom breaks? In Carmichael's HBO Max special \"Home Videos,\" he returned home to Winston-Salem, N.C., and filmed conversations with his real family members about sensitive family topics. His special \"Rothaniel,\" directed by Bo Burnham, was taped earlier this year at the Blue Note Jazz Club in New York City. It's streaming on HBO Max. Our interview was recorded in April.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Welcome to the show, everybody."}
{"id": "1145598765", "date": "2022-12-28", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 2, "text": "Jerrod Carmichael, welcome back to FRESH AIR. It's such a pleasure to have you on the show. I love the new special. Congratulations. And you really were great on \"Saturday Night Live,\" so congratulations on that, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Welcome to the show, everybody."}
{"id": "1145598765", "date": "2022-12-28", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Oh, my pleasure. What changed in your life that you were willing and able to tell secrets now on stage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much. Thank you for having me."}
{"id": "1145598765", "date": "2022-12-28", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Before we get to coming out, let's start with your name, which you tried to keep secret. Jerrod is your middle name. Your first name, as you reveal in the special, is the title of the special, which is \"Rothaniel.\" Tell us about the origin of the name.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I got tired. I think I grew tired of being someone I wasn't. I felt like I was, like, just hiding. They call it being in the closet, I guess, for a reason, because it does feel like you just h"}
{"id": "1145598765", "date": "2022-12-28", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The name comes from my father. He named me after my two grandfathers, his father and my mother's father, Robert and Nathaniel - combined the two names at birth and never really used it. Like, we immed"}
{"id": "1145598765", "date": "2022-12-28", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 6, "text": "So what did you have to do to keep your name a secret?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And so, like, it was big. It took up too much space. And I didn't want it. I didn't want any parts of it."}
{"id": "1145598765", "date": "2022-12-28", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 7, "text": "You had to keep a lot of secrets as a kid. And one of them was about your family tree - your grandparents, your father and all the extramarital affairs they had and all the outside children that they had.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I hid it as much as I could. On legal documents, they have to write your first name. So I always hid those and turned papers upside down and never showed anyone my driver's license. And as soon "}
{"id": "1145598765", "date": "2022-12-28", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is comic, writer and actor Jerrod Carmichael. His HBO comedy special is called \"Rothaniel.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a lot. My - one of my grandfathers had dozens outside of his marriage. And the other had a few himself, including my father, who had a few children outside of his marriage to my mother, which I k"}
{"id": "1145598765", "date": "2022-12-28", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with comic, writer and actor Jerrod Carmichael. His HBO comedy special is called \"Rothaniel.\" It's all about secrets, about his real name, his family tree and his sexual orientation. So these are powerful things to be carrying around as a child. You're hiding your name.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a lot. My - one of my grandfathers had dozens outside of his marriage. And the other had a few himself, including my father, who had a few children outside of his marriage to my mother, which I k"}
{"id": "1145598765", "date": "2022-12-28", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 10, "text": "When you figure out your sexual orientation, you're hiding that. You're hiding the truth about your father's relationship. You're hiding it from - that you know from your father. You're hiding his relationship from your mother. You're living with them. I mean, you see them every day, and you have this huge secret you're carrying around about their relationship. How did you bear all that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1145598765", "date": "2022-12-28", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 11, "text": "How could you even trust your father knowing how he deceived your mother? Did you wonder, like, what else don't I know about you? What else are you hiding?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". You know, like, I thought I did. I thought I beared it. I thought I beared it without consequence, I should say. And I didn't. I didn't go out unscathed. It's definitely things that affect my behavi"}
{"id": "1145598765", "date": "2022-12-28", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Especially with your mother reading the Bible, you know? Like, your mother's reading the Bible to friends, and you're keeping this really big secret about the family. That must have been strange.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know, that there was this, like, other side of a person. Yeah, yeah, but I love him. I love him."}
{"id": "1145598765", "date": "2022-12-28", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 13, "text": "What does that passage mean to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, again, also, like later in life, you start realizing really irony in a lot of the Bible verses that my mother would read and how they would reflect situations that she didn't know. Jeremiah 33:1"}
{"id": "1145598765", "date": "2022-12-28", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Oh, gosh, so complicated. You know, like, you are - like, your existence is God's gift to your mother. And that was instilled in you right from the start. And you were so involved in your church. And yet, you know, there was, quote, \"sin\" in your home. You know, I put that in quotes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", but I'm just saying how important that relationship with God is and how much it was instilled in me as a child."}
{"id": "1145598765", "date": "2022-12-28", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 15, "text": "OK. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1145598765", "date": "2022-12-28", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 16, "text": "That's so confusing to a child, isn't it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's not a false quote. I think that's how it would be described."}
{"id": "1145598765", "date": "2022-12-28", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 17, "text": "You say that you made your father tell your mother about his outside relationships with other women and his children by other women. How did you make your father tell your mother? If you don't mind my asking, what did you say to your father? And how old were you when you said it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It definitely shaped my perspective. Again, like, it's - I remember the fear. I remember the anxiety. I remember just the need to perform, the need to change the energy of a ro"}
{"id": "1145598765", "date": "2022-12-28", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 18, "text": "Was he shocked that you knew?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "in London. And, like, God, I remember it being so late, like after midnight. And I started the conversation with, this will all go OK as long as you don't lie to me. And I'm glad I said that, taking l"}
{"id": "1145598765", "date": "2022-12-28", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 19, "text": "Yeah, you do.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I think I say that in the special. But that's true."}
{"id": "1145598765", "date": "2022-12-28", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 20, "text": "So continuing with you telling your father that he had to tell your mother about his affairs, about his children outside of their marriage - and so you told him he needed to do that, and he did it. He told your mother. Did you worry that maybe your mother was better off not knowing, maybe the best thing for her life was to continue living without that knowledge, without that really painful knowledge?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I think it made sense. I think it made sense to him."}
{"id": "1145598765", "date": "2022-12-28", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 21, "text": "That she'd leave him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, of course. Of course. I mean, I thought it would be over..."}
{"id": "1145598765", "date": "2022-12-28", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Well, you asked your mother about finding out about this in your special \"Home Videos.\" So I thought I'd play an excerpt of that in which you're asking your mother about, you know, learning about these secret relationships and staying with your father in spite of it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And say - and it's over. Well, I don't even know what I thought the exact reaction would be, but something explosive. Yeah, I thought it would be devastating."}
{"id": "1145598765", "date": "2022-12-28", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Getting back to the church again. So do you think, in retrospect, that you did the right thing in getting out the truth?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One name - Jesus."}
{"id": "1145598765", "date": "2022-12-28", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Well, OK. Well, let's talk more in a moment, but we have to take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jerrod Carmichael, comic, writer, actor. He created \"The Carmichael Show\" on NBC and starred in it. He's had several HBO comedy specials. His new one is called \"Rothaniel.\" We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "for me right now."}
{"id": "1145598765", "date": "2022-12-28", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 25, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today, we're continuing our series of some of our favorite interviews of the year. So let's get back to my interview with Jerrod Carmichael. He's a comic, writer and actor. His HBO comedy special \"Rothaniel\" is streaming on HBO Max. It's all about secrets - about his real name, his family tree and his sexual orientation. He also created and starred in the NBC comedy series \"The Carmichael Show\" about a family loosely based on his own that constantly disagree on issues relating to politics, guns, abortion and nearly everything. Carmichael has also had other HBO comedy specials.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "for me right now."}
{"id": "1145598765", "date": "2022-12-28", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 26, "text": "You made a joke in an earlier comedy special about how a friend of yours came out, and you didn't know why because he was doing very well and he should have waited until he needed the applause and the support", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "for me right now."}
{"id": "1145598765", "date": "2022-12-28", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 27, "text": ". So what were you thinking about when you came up with that for your comedy special - for an earlier one?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "for me right now."}
{"id": "1145598765", "date": "2022-12-28", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 28, "text": "Critic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know - I don't know the word, but, you know..."}
{"id": "1145598765", "date": "2022-12-28", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 29, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just remember thinking, I don't want to be that person. It was self-hate. You know, I think that was, like, a little peek through of, like, oh, wait, is that what I'm doing? Like, it was - so I don'"}
{"id": "1145598765", "date": "2022-12-28", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 30, "text": "You know, you've said that there was a - there's been periods in your life where you thought you'd rather die than come out. What were the consequences that you feared?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, like, you know, yeah, I felt bad."}
{"id": "1145598765", "date": "2022-12-28", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 31, "text": "What was the model of masculinity you grew up with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "talk about gay people sometimes."}
{"id": "1145598765", "date": "2022-12-28", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 32, "text": "Race was an issue, too, when you were coming out, in the sense that, like, one of your boyfriends was white. And in one of your home videos - and \"Home Videos\" is another HBO special, an earlier one - you're talking, I think it's to your sister, to one of your sisters. And you say, how would you react if I brought home a white girlfriend? And she says, you know, that she wants you to embrace Black love. And you kind of question, like, you know, what does that mean? But anyways, so when you had a white boyfriend and you were keeping secret that it was a boyfriend and that the boyfriend was white, like, can you talk about that, the double secret, the, like, racial and sexual secret?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A lot of - I think there were - in a world without fathers, I think there was an overcompensation. So people find fathers elsewhere. You'll find a father. You'll find, like, you need it for balance. A"}
{"id": "1145598765", "date": "2022-12-28", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 33, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jerrod Carmichael. He has a new HBO comedy special, which is called \"Rothaniel,\" which, by the way, is his real first name, which he kept hidden most of his life until now. So we'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, the racial part, less of a secret and more of something that I need to explore in my own life about, you know, I find men of all races very attractive. But, like, what root of self-hate or f"}
{"id": "1145598765", "date": "2022-12-28", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 34, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with comic, writer and actor Jerrod Carmichael. His HBO comedy special \"Rothaniel\" is streaming on HBO Max. It's all about secrets - about his real name, his family tree and his sexual orientation. How old were you when you realized you were gay?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, the racial part, less of a secret and more of something that I need to explore in my own life about, you know, I find men of all races very attractive. But, like, what root of self-hate or f"}
{"id": "1145598765", "date": "2022-12-28", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 35, "text": "You know, we talked about how deeply religious your mother is, and in her view of Christianity, like, homosexuality is a sin. Like, she is really having trouble accepting that. And that is part of the reason why you've had such trouble accepting it and being open about it over the years. But, you know, you say that you're still Christian but that it's taken a lot and that you've had to reconfigure God and what God is in order to accept yourself and kind of rebuild from there. What was church like when you were growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "like, you know, for most of the world, I was straight presenting, so I was able to hide. You know, even as a kid, you know, I didn't really play sports, but, you know, my jeans were just baggy enough "}
{"id": "1145598765", "date": "2022-12-28", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 36, "text": "Did you ever do comedy in church?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And church was just, like, the first place that, like, gave me a microphone and an audience. And it's a great show. It's an excellent show."}
{"id": "1145598765", "date": "2022-12-28", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 37, "text": "So, like, comedy was like your superpower. You know, you had to hide your actual identity, like a lot of superheroes have to do, but you had this superpower, which was comedy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I mean, but, yeah, definitely. I was pretty funny there. And it was always fun to make adults laugh. Like, I was one of those kids who really liked making adults laugh 'cause making other kids laugh"}
{"id": "1145598765", "date": "2022-12-28", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 38, "text": "So, you know, I just want to end by saying that I hope you and your mother kind of get back together again 'cause you seem like you were so close in so many ways, and I hope that she's able to eventually appreciate the openness that you have now and the acceptance of yourself and the reality of your truth and meet you there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Like, they are very funny."}
{"id": "1145598765", "date": "2022-12-28", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 39, "text": "Jerrod Carmichael, thank you so much for talking with us. It's just really been great to speak with you again and hear you be so open, and I think it's been great for your comedy. I love the new special. And it sounds like it's been really good for your life as well. So congratulations on all of that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for that. And I hope so, too. And I know it starts with myself. Like, you know - and it's not me trying to take responsibility for anyone else's feelings. But I do know that the world can't "}
{"id": "1145598765", "date": "2022-12-28", "guest": "Jerrod Carmichael", "title": "Comic Jerrod Carmichael bares his secrets in 'Rothaniel'", "question_index": 40, "text": "My interview with Jerrod Carmichael was recorded in April. In September, he won an Emmy for outstanding writing for a variety special. That HBO special, \"Rothaniel,\" is streaming on HBO Max. Our series featuring some of our favorite interviews of the year will continue tomorrow with Michael Imperioli. Coming up, podcast critic Nick Quah will tell us about some of his favorite podcasts of the year. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much. I really appreciate talking to you, appreciate your words. It's been fun."}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I am Terry Gross. Today we continue our series featuring some of our favorite interviews of the year with Al Yankovic, aka Weird Al Yankovic. He's famous for his song parodies, for which he writes comic lyrics to hit songs. \"Beat It\" became \"Eat It.\" \"My Sharona\" became \"My Bologna.\" \"Another One Bites The Dust\" became \"Another One Rides The Bus.\" \"Like A Virgin\" - \"Like A Surgeon.\" \"Ridin'\" - ridin' dirty - was transformed into \"White & Nerdy.\" He's recorded a mashup of songs from \"Hamilton\" Polka style. Yankovic's instrument is the accordion, not exactly a mainstay of rock bands or hip-hop. In keeping with his style of comedy, the new movie \"Weird,\" which he co-wrote, parodies music biopics, as well as action films and film noir, and offers an alternate version of his life. In the movie, playing accordion gives him the status of a guitar hero. Making up words to songs that already exist is considered a high calling, the work of a visionary. Artists, including Madonna, will do anything to get him to parody their songs, knowing their song will become a hit if Weird Al parodies it. He becomes so popular he's asked to be the next James Bond. Daniel Radcliffe stars as Al Yankovic. Although Yankovic never achieved quite the status his character does in the film, he's been quite successful. He's the third music performer, after Michael Jackson and Madonna, to have a top 40 single in each decade since the '80s. He recently completed his tour, which he called \"The Unfortunate Return Of His Ridiculously Self-Indulgent, Ill-Advised Vanity Tour\" (ph). You can see his new movie, \"Weird,\" streaming on roku.com for free. Let's start with one of his early hits, which is also in the film. Here is \"Eat It.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 1, "text": "Al Yankovic, welcome to FRESH AIR. I laughed out loud during your movie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) How come you're always such a fussy young man? Don't want no Captain Crunch, don't want no Raisin Bran. Well, don't you know that other kids are starving in Japan? So eat it. Just eat it. Do"}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 2, "text": "So we just heard \"Eat It.\" How did you decide to do that Michael Jackson song? Why did you choose that one? And I should mention, this was the era where, like, music videos were really big. And Michael Jackson's videos, including \"Beat It,\" were, like, huge at the time. And, of course, you did a video of \"Eat It,\" too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, that's so nice to hear. Thank you so much."}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 3, "text": "You really capture what some music biopics are like and how they distort certain facts and the turning points that you have to have in a music biopic. In a lot of biopics, the parent doesn't want the child to go into music because it's too much of a gamble, or they think their child isn't really talented enough. Or music is too frivolous. It's not real work, and it won't support you because you're not good enough. So in your parody of music biopics, when the young version of Al Yankovic gets interested in writing song parodies, his father thinks, like, that's ridiculous. That's terrible. He should work in the factory with the father. I want to play a scene from \"Weird\" in which the father's been trying to convince him to work at the factory. And this is one of my favorite scenes in the movie. I just think it so captures a trope of music biopics. So let's hear it. And Young Al Yankovic's mother speaks first. How old is Young Al in this scene?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, in 1983, '84, Michael Jackson was the most popular human being in the universe. And you know, the \"Beat It\" video was getting played a dozen times a day on MTV. And this is at a time whe"}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 4, "text": "So here we go. So this is a scene with the mother, the father and Young Al.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Maybe 8, 9 years old."}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 5, "text": "Every line in that scene is so funny.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Young Al) You don't understand me."}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 6, "text": "Was \"Amazing Grapes\" written for the film? Or did you actually write that as a kid?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 7, "text": "Your father worked in a factory like the father in the movie. And it was a steel factory? Did he make steel? Is that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no. That was - I mean, I certainly could have at some point. But that was written for the film, yeah."}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 8, "text": "Did he want you to work in the factory? Or did he want you to have a different kind of life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I believe it was a sheet metal manufacturing plant. But he was very blue-collar, worked in a lot of different, random jobs over the years. But, you know, it wasn't some oppressive factory as portrayed"}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 9, "text": "I love the mother and father's advice in this to the young Al. Like, stop being who you are and doing the things you love", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I think he was glad that I was a nerdy kid. I was a smart child, you know, valedictorian, straight A's and all that. And he was very proud of that. And he wanted me to do something where I could, "}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 10, "text": ", you know, 'cause that's basically the advice people are given in the biopics. But what was your parents' reaction to you loving the things that you love, like music parodies, Mad Magazine, you know, like, silly and crazy jokes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I think he was glad that I was a nerdy kid. I was a smart child, you know, valedictorian, straight A's and all that. And he was very proud of that. And he wanted me to do something where I could, "}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 11, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Al Yankovic. And his new movie, \"Weird,\" is a parody of biopics depicting a very funny, untrue version of Al Yankovic's life. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But she was just a little leery about me doing anything involving showbusiness. But I was always very adult-minded. It's not like I ran away to LA to become a rock star or anything like that. I went"}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Al Yankovic, who's famous for his song parodies of hit records. And his new movie, \"Weird,\" is a parody of biopics using a totally fictionalized version of Al Yankovic's life. In biopics, in music biopics, there's always something that the songwriter sees or hears that makes them, like, stop dead in their tracks and think, wait, wait, wait, that's a song", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But she was just a little leery about me doing anything involving showbusiness. But I was always very adult-minded. It's not like I ran away to LA to become a rock star or anything like that. I went"}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 13, "text": ". And they write a song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But she was just a little leery about me doing anything involving showbusiness. But I was always very adult-minded. It's not like I ran away to LA to become a rock star or anything like that. I went"}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 14, "text": "And you have a take on that. In the movie, you know, Al is in college at this time. And one of his roommates puts on the radio. And \"My Sharona\" is playing. And Al opens the refrigerator to make a sandwich. And there's really nothing in it except some bologna, which belongs to his roommate. And the roommate says, you can have my bologna. And Al stops and thinks, oh, that's a song", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 15, "text": ". And next thing, like, he writes \"My Bologna\" to the melody of \"My Sharona.\" So has that ever happened to you, that a song kind of came to you based on something that you were experiencing in that moment?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 16, "text": "Yes, exactly. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It happens pretty rarely. I mean, that's the thing with almost all of the biopics - musical biopics - is they want to show the moment of epiphany. Like, where did this idea come from? And usually, the"}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 17, "text": "OK. So here's \"My Bologna.\" This is \"Weird Al\" Yankovic.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...For the songwriter, which you can't really show on the big screen that well. So a lot of times, it's fabricated for the sake of the movie. And obviously, we take that trope and we exaggerate it. An"}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 18, "text": "That's \"My Bologna,\" one of the songs that's included in the new movie \"Weird,\" which is a parody biopic of parodist \"Weird Al\" Yankovic's life. And it's streaming for free on therokuchannel.com. So you know, after that song comes to you, your roommate says, I don't know if that comes from God or the devil. But the world needs to hear it. That's also another trope from biopics and of, like, rock 'n' roll movies in general. Like, is this the devil's music, you know, or anything pertaining to the blues.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Ooh, my little hungry one, hungry one, open up a package of my bologna. Ooh, I think the toast is done, the toast is done. Top it with a little of my bologna. Never going to stop. Eat it up."}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is like the devil's music. Or is it great, you know? So as a parodist and as an accordion player, did you feel outside of that whole world of, like, this is the devil's music or, you know, like, rock 'n' roll unleashes all these, like, wild feelings", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 20, "text": ", you know? Or, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 21, "text": "Or gangster rap, maybe it's dangerous. Like, you were so in a different world. Even as a child, like, playing accordion, you just weren't a part of, like, the danger and sexual thrill that, like, pop and rock was supposed to be, and rhythm and blues and soul music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Accordion music was always considered extremely safe to the point of being corny. It was - people thought of \"Lawrence Welk Show\" and Myron Floren. It didn't have a very hip reputation in the '6"}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 23, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And my messages were always things like, wow, you must have an awful lot of free time on your hands."}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 24, "text": "Accordion is, I think, a great instrument. And if you listen to, like, you know, zydeco or polka or things like \"The Threepenny Opera\" or, like, some avant-garde, jazz, tango, like, accordion is just, like, a mainstay of that. And it's really such an interesting instrument. What did you learn when you were taking accordion lessons? Like, what did you grow up on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Or Satan eats Cheez Whiz, you know? So I always had a little bit of fun with that. But as far as I can tell, there was nothing actually satanic in my music."}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 25, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I started taking lessons - and again, this would have been ages 7 to 10 - it was mostly polkas and waltzes and, you know, various classical pieces, a lot of public domain stuff. They didn't teach"}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 26, "text": "Well, speaking of not bringing sexy back to the accordion, Myron Floren", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, rock 'n' roll wasn't something that was part of the daily lesson. So I got a little bit bored after age 10 and decided I would just kind of learn on my own. So I learned to play by ear a lot"}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 27, "text": ". So he was the accordion player on \"The Lawrence Welk Show\" for years and years. And, of course, Lawrence Welk is still on some PBS stations in reruns of reruns of reruns. And my husband and I watch it a lot because it's such an odd show. I mean, to see what passed for entertainment then and how really square and corny the music was, although there were some great musicians in the band. But, like, Myron Floren on accordion, he had to, like, smile all the time. Like, you could not not smile.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, rock 'n' roll wasn't something that was part of the daily lesson. So I got a little bit bored after age 10 and decided I would just kind of learn on my own. So I learned to play by ear a lot"}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 28, "text": "And his playing was like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 29, "text": "Yeah. And the playing was, like, so flashy but so corny. And I was wondering if you watched him on \"Lawrence Welk\" when you were taking lessons.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So happy. So happy."}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 30, "text": "No kidding. Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I loved Myron Floren. Myron Floren was the first autograph I ever got."}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 31, "text": "What did people think of you? What did your contemporaries think of you when you were a kid and when you were a teenager playing accordion?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He came to my town, and there's a picture of me smiling next to Myron Floren as he gives me my first autograph. And it was a big deal for me because, you know - and granted, OK, not the hippest entert"}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 32, "text": "And that was parodies? I mean, did you ever try just, like, playing songs that you liked on accordion and trying to create your own band?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was hard to join my friends' rock bands 'cause when I was in my early teens, you know, that was my goal was, like, oh, I just want to jam with some, you know, like-minded musicians. Let's - you kno"}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 33, "text": "Did you think you were cool?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My brain sort of deviated into comedy because it was hard for me to take playing the accordion seriously because if you play the accordion seriously, then, you know, you're playing, you know, Italian "}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 34, "text": "Who nicknamed you Weird?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, not as such. I mean, I knew I was a nerd. I knew I was a dork. I didn't really fit in at school with my friends. I was, you know, eating lunch by myself at the lunch tables a lot. So I didn't th"}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 35, "text": "So let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Al Yankovic, and his new movie \"Weird\" is a parody of biopics depicting a very funny, untrue version of Al Yankovic's life. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm not entirely sure. I know that nickname was given to me in my dorms in my freshman year in college. It was a nickname that I think a couple of people were calling me because they found me to be we"}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 36, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Al Yankovic, who's famous around the world for his parodies of hit pop tunes and rock tunes and hip hop music. And his new movie, \"Weird,\" satirizes music biopics and also is a totally upside-down version of Al Yankovic's real life. I'm wondering what it was like for you when hip hop came along and gangsta rap, because there's a - it's a very popular form of music, but it would be somewhere between problematic and offensive to a lot of people if, you know, a white musician was parodying Black songs, you know, songs by Black artists. So I can see how you dealt with that, looking at your music. But can you talk about that a little bit about the challenges that presented to you and how you went about dealing with them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Here I come, I come, I come, I come 'cause all I wanna do is have some fun. I've got a feeling I'm not the only one. All I wanna do is have some fun. I've got a feeling I'm not the only one."}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 37, "text": "Well, I want to play \"White & Nerdy,\" and this is a parody, as you said, of Chamillionaire's \"Ridin'.\" And the lyrics originally are about how the cops are trying to catch him riding dirty, riding with weapons or drugs. And so \"White & Nerdy\" is like a nerdy white guy talking about, you know, mowing his lawn and things like that. So do you want to say anything about your approach to parodying this specific song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I can understand why some people might think that that's problematic, but I think the fact that I respect the music so much goes a long way towards, you know, making people feel better about tha"}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 38, "text": "OK, let's hear it. This is Al Yankovic.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this is one of my favorite songs, not only because it was my highest-selling song and my only platinum single and my only Top 10 single. But I didn't have to do any research whatsoever because I"}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 39, "text": "That's Weird Al Yankovic and his recording \"White & Nerdy.\" His new parody of music biopics that also parodies his own life is called \"Weird.\" So among other things that you did along similar but different lines is you did a mashup of songs from \"Hamilton\" with the original lyrics, but all done as polkas. And it's so much fun. How did you get the idea of doing this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) They see me roll on my Segway. I know in my heart they think I'm white and nerdy. Think I'm just too white and nerdy. Think I'm just too white and nerdy. Can't you see I'm white and nerdy? L"}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 40, "text": "What was his reaction?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is something that I've done since the beginning of my career. I've had a polka medley on - not every album, but almost. I think I've had, like, a dozen or so polka medleys over the years. And Lin"}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 41, "text": "OK, let's hear it. This is so much fun. So this is Weird Al Yankovic's polka medley of songs from \"Hamilton.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was almost crying, he was just so happy. He just loved it."}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 42, "text": "That's Weird Al Yankovic and his medley of polka songs from \"Hamilton.\" So let's take a short break here and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Al Yankovic. And his new movie, which he co-wrote, is called \"Weird.\" It's a parody of music biopics and also a parody of Al Yankovic's life. It's now streaming online for free on therokuchannel.com. And you can also see it on Roku devices. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) No one else was in the room where it happened, the room where it happened, the room where it happened. No one else was in the room where it happened, the room where it happened, the room whe"}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 43, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Al Yankovic, who's famous for his song parodies of hit records. And his new movie, \"Weird,\" is a parody of biopics using a totally fictionalized version of Al Yankovic's life. So I want to ask you about another song. You did a parody of Nirvana's \"Smells Like Teen Spirit.\" And what you did was \"Smells like Nirvana.\" And the song is about how you can't figure out any of the lyrics and have no idea what the song is about - you know, what \"Smells Like Teen Spirit\" is about. Were you more puzzled by his singing or by what the lyrics meant or both of them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) No one else was in the room where it happened, the room where it happened, the room where it happened. No one else was in the room where it happened, the room where it happened, the room whe"}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 44, "text": "So let's hear it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Kind of all of the above. I mean, you know, and it wasn't an opinion that I came by out of a vacuum. I mean, I think when \"Smells Like Teen Spirit\" was a big hit, a lot of people were like, what's he "}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 45, "text": "That was Weird Al Yankovic's take on Nirvana's \"Smells Like Teen Spirit,\" and his version is called \"Smells Like Nirvana.\" I was wondering, what was your reaction when Kurt Cobain died? Did you feel any regret about having done the song? Not that I think that you should feel regret, I'm just wondering how you experienced that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) What is this song all about? Can't figure any lyrics out. How do the words to it go? I wish you'd tell me. I don't know. Don't know, don't know, don't know, oh, no. Don't know, don't know, d"}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 46, "text": "Oh, gee", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was extremely sad 'cause I loved Kurt. You know, I didn't - I wasn't close with him. But, I mean, I'd met him a couple times, and I was a huge fan of his music - still am a huge fan of his music. So"}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 47, "text": ". Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was extremely sad 'cause I loved Kurt. You know, I didn't - I wasn't close with him. But, I mean, I'd met him a couple times, and I was a huge fan of his music - still am a huge fan of his music. So"}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 48, "text": "Uh-huh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...A couple weeks later. Like, can I play this in, like, Kurt's hometown?"}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 49, "text": "What kind of permissions do you legally need now to do a song parody, the kind that you do where often it's, like, musically note for note from the original recording but, you know, the lyrics are different? So, you know, you're satirizing the lyric, but the music isn't really - the instrumentation isn't really a satire. It's the thing. It's the - sounds like the original thing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know? And what I wound up doing was before we played this song, I did a very solemn, you know, thank you to Kurt and tried to have, like, a moment of respect. And then, we went into the song. And "}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 50, "text": "In a lot of music biopics, the musician's life and career are nearly ruined by alcohol or drugs because success leads to excess, which leads to addiction, which leads to being nonfunctional. And then, either that's followed by death or by a comeback and getting sober. This happens in your movie, which is really funny because you're known for, you know, abstaining from alcohol and drugs. But I imagine you felt like you needed to put this in the biopic because it's such a staple.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a gray area in terms of legally what I need to do especially in cases like \"Smells Like Nirvana\" because, again, that's satire. And that's considered free speech and fair use. And if push came to"}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 51, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think I want to get into alcohol and drugs in my 80s. I'm just kind of building up to it. I don't want to rush into anything."}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 52, "text": "Has it been challenging to not drink or do drugs in the music world because you became a star and were a part of the music world and hung out with stars and probably were invited to parties with a lot of excess?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it's - I think all biopics have that dramatic arc. And we're obviously making fun of that. So in order to have a traditional Hollywood biopic, I had to have, you know, this descent, this downward "}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 53, "text": "What was it like for you when you did become famous and suddenly you were a part of the world that you were an outsider from and never thought you'd really be a part of because you were not a rock God, you didn't play guitar or drums or keyboards?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, we're all adults. It's like, you can just say - like Nancy Reagan, just say no."}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 54, "text": "How has that changed your self-image?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a little odd for me because I've always had an outsider status, you know, especially starting out because I was just this weirdo kid from LA, playing the accordion and making fun of all the peo"}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 55, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Al Yankovic. And his new movie, \"Weird,\" is a parody of biopics depicting a very funny, untrue version of Al Yankovic's life. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, it's good for my self-esteem. I mean, you know, I'm by nature actually a very shy person. And being somewhat famous has helped me, you know, be more social and talk to people. I mean, I "}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 56, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Al Yankovic, who's famous for his song parodies of hit records. And his new movie, \"Weird,\" is a parody of biopics, using a totally fictionalized version of Al Yankovic's life. I want to ask you about something, like, very serious, which is that your parents both died in - I guess you could call it an accident at home from inhaling - was it carbon monoxide from the fireplace? That sounds so horrible and so unnecessary, like it should never have happened. Do you understand what happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, it's good for my self-esteem. I mean, you know, I'm by nature actually a very shy person. And being somewhat famous has helped me, you know, be more social and talk to people. I mean, I "}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 57, "text": "How did you find out about this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, as best as we can figure out, the flue in the fireplace was closed. There was a fire in the fireplace. And I guess they went to sleep not knowing that. And they both passed from carbon monoxide "}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 58, "text": "So you were on the tour bus. You weren't at home. How did you decide what to do next?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My wife called me. I was on the road at the time. So she called me. I was handed the phone on my tour bus. My wife was weeping. And she told me. And it was the worst moment of my life."}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 59, "text": "How did they find out if you were keeping it secret?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was tough because I was literally in the middle of a tour. And I certainly didn't want to be performing that night or any time in the near future. But I realized that I had a small army of pe"}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 60, "text": "I know you are Christian. How do you explain to yourself when a tragedy like this happens?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, people find out. It was on CNN. It was everywhere within a couple hours. So people knew. So I continued with the show. I did a tribute to my parents before doing the show, before the con"}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 61, "text": "So I want to close with a song, and this is \"Another One Rides The Bus,\" which is your version of Queens' \"Another One Bites The Dust.\" And this is an important song in your career because it's how you hooked up with the person who became your longtime drummer. So tell us the story behind writing the song and finding the drummer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't have any kind of greater explanation for it. It's horribly sad, and it's horribly unfortunate. And, yeah, I don't know how to explain it other than that. And you just kind of deal with it the "}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 62, "text": "So you rerecorded it for the movie?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I recorded \"Another One Rides The Bus,\" the original version, on September 14, 1980. And that's a big date in my life because that's when I not only did that song live on the \"Dr. Demento\" radio show,"}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 63, "text": "It's been such a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you for your music. Thank you for the new film. And I wish you well.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We did. We - except for \"Eat It,\" I think we rerecorded all of the parody songs because they were meant to sound like live performances. So we needed to be able to have slightly different versions tha"}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 64, "text": "My interview with Al Yankovic was recorded last month. He co-wrote the new satirical biopic \"Weird,\" which is an imaginary version of his own life. It's streaming for free on roku.com.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you so much. This was a pleasure. Thank you."}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 65, "text": "Monday on FRESH AIR, we wrap up our series of some of our favorite interviews from 2022 with Rosie Perez. She co-starred in the HBO Max series \"The Flight Attendant.\" She was discovered at the age of 19 dancing at a club and become a dancer on \"Soul Train.\" Spike Lee chose her for the role of his girlfriend in \"Do The Right Thing\" after getting in an argument with her at a club. Her strong will helped her weather a really rough childhood. I hope you can join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Ridin' in the bus down the boulevard and the place was pretty packed. Yeah. Couldn't find a seat, so I had to stand with the perverts in the back. It was smellin' like a locker room. There w"}
{"id": "1144704040", "date": "2022-12-30", "guest": "Al Yankovic", "title": "'Weird Al' Yankovic wants to 'bring sexy back' to the accordion", "question_index": 66, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Seth Kelley, Susan Nyakundi and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. All of us at FRESH AIR wish you a happy and healthy 2023. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Ridin' in the bus down the boulevard and the place was pretty packed. Yeah. Couldn't find a seat, so I had to stand with the perverts in the back. It was smellin' like a locker room. There w"}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest is the Emmy- and Oscar-nominated actor Rosie Perez. She started her performing career as a dancer. When she was 19, she was dancing at a club with her friends when a talent scout from \"Soul Train\" noticed her and invited her to dance on the show. She brought her style of hip-hop dancing to \"Soul Train\" at a time before hip-hop had entered the mainstream. She went on to be the choreographer for The Fly Girls, the dancers on the sketch comedy show \"In Living Color.\" She choreographed music videos for Bobby Brown, Diana Ross and L.L. Cool J. In 1988, when she was 24, Perez went to a nightclub and ended up getting in an argument with Spike Lee. He told her, I've been looking for somebody who can yell at me in exactly that way, and he cast her as his girlfriend in \"Do The Right Thing.\" Despite the success of the movie, Rosie Perez couldn't get an agent or a manager to take her seriously as an actress. But she pushed on, something she's done her whole life, and was cast in \"White Men Can't Jump\" and Peter Weir's film \"Fearless,\" which earned her a best supporting actress nomination. Perez had a rough childhood. She had nine siblings. Her mother was intermittently jailed throughout her childhood and was diagnosed later in life as schizophrenic. When Perez was 3 years old, she was transferred to a Catholic foster home run by nuns and was considered a ward of the state of New York until age 12. Rosie Perez currently stars in the HBO Max series, \"The Flight Attendant,\" which is in its second season. Later this month, you can see her in the Apple TV+ series \"Now And Then\" as a police detective.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 1, "text": "Rosie Perez, welcome to FRESH AIR. It is a pleasure to have you on the show. It seems like things are going so well in your career now - like, two new series. Like, do you feel in a great place professionally now?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 2, "text": "You were reluctant to take the role on \"The Flight Attendant.\" I mean, it's a great role. It's a popular series. Why were you going to decline?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I do. It's wonderful. It's all about just keep pushing and keep going, as you stated earlier. You know, if you really want something, you just have to keep at it. And, you know, there's been high"}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 3, "text": "She's the producer and star.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because I don't like traveling, and I have a fear of flying. So it's the two things combined that, you know - at this point in my career - it's 30 years plus - I was like, if I don't have to travel fo"}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 4, "text": "Isn't that terrible? Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...She was."}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 5, "text": "So, you know, you have two new series. One of them is \"The Flight Attendant.\" And you have another series in which you play a police detective. When you were first getting started in acting, you got a lot of roles - role offers as prostitutes. Does it feel good to be playing the detective and not the prostitute?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know I'm going to say yes now. So yeah. So thankfully I did."}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 6, "text": "You were, like, a sex worker on the street getting arrested.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not by a long shot."}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I didn't take those roles. There was one role I took, \"Criminal Justice\" on HBO. And I played a drug addict, but I was the supporting lead. And the whole story circled around me and Fore"}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 8, "text": "Do you think having a kind of New York Puerto Rican accent ever stood in your way of getting roles?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it was so crazy. It was so crazy to me that they just couldn't comprehend. They couldn't see past the bigotry in the situation. You know, it was just like, oh, my gosh. It was insane."}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 9, "text": "Let's go back to the very beginning. You spent, you know, your formative years from - was, like, age 3 to age 12 in a group foster home and in foster care. I know it's a complicated story, but how did you end up in foster care?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So it's as simple as that, you know? And I'm not - I am not afraid of playing certain characters, you know? I'm not afraid of playing the good and bad and ugly of my nationality, of my race. I a"}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 10, "text": "How could she do that, take you from a home in which you were loved, you know, with your aunt and bring you to a group home?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I wasn't in foster care initially. And most people don't understand the difference. You are a ward of the state. And that means what it literally means. And I was basically governed by the Catho"}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 11, "text": "But why would she do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It wasn't a group home. It was a Catholic home. It's like an orphanage, if you will."}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, we need to take a short break here, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Rosie Perez. We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a very good question. That's the question that I've been dealing with all my life that I had to learn to kind of let go 'cause I'm not going to get the answers. The only closest thing that come"}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Rosie Perez. How old were you and how old was your mother when she was actually diagnosed with, you know, a mental health disorder, schizophrenia?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a very good question. That's the question that I've been dealing with all my life that I had to learn to kind of let go 'cause I'm not going to get the answers. The only closest thing that come"}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, I can't imagine what it's like to not only have your mother reject you but take you out of a home where you're loved, put you in a - you know, a Catholic home for girls as an orphan when you had both a mother and a loving aunt, and your mother would prevent you from seeing the aunt. I can't imagine how that made you feel about your ability to be loved.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is a lot for a kid to take in. You know what I mean? And what also people don't understand - in the Catholic home, on weekends, you were able to get visits from your relatives, or you were able t"}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 15, "text": "You know, what was your image of Jesus since Jesus was kind of like a punitive figure for the nuns that used to beat you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's just - and it was just too much. It was just really, really too much. And because of those formative earlier years with my aunt, who always told me I was special, always told me I was loved, I ha"}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 16, "text": "I want to jump ahead to when you were 19. You were studying biochemistry at Los Angeles City College, and you were dancing at a club one night with your girlfriends when a talent scout from \"Soul Train\" saw you and asked you to be a dancer on the show. So I want to talk about dancing on \"Soul Train.\" What kind of dancing were you doing? And how did that compare to the other dancers on \"Soul Train\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was like, what? What did I say? Yeah. And so I was really confused. I was really confused. And then it was like, if I didn't have enough penance, I would get beat by Sister Benada, literally. You kn"}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 17, "text": "Because of that? Because of that phone call?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he goes, because I said so. And I went, all righty, Mr. King. And I went, Don King. And he didn't like that joke at all. He didn't like that joke at all, you know? But I quickly picked up how to d"}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 18, "text": "But it was such an opportunity that you were giving up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I didn't want to hurt him. I didn't - it's a different world in Puerto Rico. You know what I mean? I am not Rosie Perez in Puerto Rico. I'm Rosa Marie, the daughter of Ismael Serrano. That's who"}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 19, "text": "My guest is Rosie Perez. We need to take a short break here, but when we continue our interview, she'll talk about her breakthrough role in Spike Lee's \"Do The Right Thing\" and the great dance she did at the beginning of the film to Public Enemy's \"Fight The Power.\" I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't see it as a opportunity. I saw it as fun because I thought I was going to be a marine biologist. I thought that this was just a sidetrack, you know, just a fun thing to do, like going to the "}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Rosie Perez, as we conclude our series of some of our favorite interviews from 2022. When we spoke last May, she was co-starring in the series \"The Flight Attendant\" on HBO Max and in the series \"Now And Then\" on Apple TV+. After being raised as a ward of the state of New York and in foster care, she's had quite a career. She co-starred with Spike Lee in his film \"Do The Right Thing\" and danced to Public Enemy's \"Fight The Power\" in the opening credit sequence of the film. She co-starred in \"Fearless\" and \"White Men Can't Jump,\" and she was the choreographer for the Fly Girls on the sketch comedy show \"In Living Color.\" She got started performing as a dancer on \"Soul Train.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) 1989, the number, another summer. Get down. Sound of the funky drummer, music hitting your heart 'cause I know you got soul. Brothers and sisters - listen, if you're missing, y'all, swinging"}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 21, "text": "Did the \"Soul Train\" dancers get paid?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) 1989, the number, another summer. Get down. Sound of the funky drummer, music hitting your heart 'cause I know you got soul. Brothers and sisters - listen, if you're missing, y'all, swinging"}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 22, "text": "Did you see that as exploitation or opportunity?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Nobody did."}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 23, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was like, are you serious, you know? But I think because we were doing it for fun, we were like, OK, oh, well, you know. And it broke my heart, you know, because a lot of the people there were not "}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 24, "text": "So you started doing choreography, and then Spike Lee cast you in \"Do The Right Thing.\" That was - I'm trying to get my chronology straight. That was before \"In Living Color,\" right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that's how my choreography career started."}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 25, "text": "Right. So let's talk about Spike Lee casting you in \"Do The Right Thing.\" And you have that amazing opening episode in which you're dancing to \"Fight The Power.\" So Spike Lee saw you at a club, and it's not just your dancing that impressed him. I'm not sure he even saw you dance. It was your way of arguing", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 26, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 27, "text": "So you were arguing over a butt contest. Now, I'd never - honestly, I confess, I hadn't heard of a butt contest before. Does - is it what it sounds like, where guys sit around judging women's butts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it was my arguing."}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 28, "text": "You didn't know who he was?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm so full of crap. And then, while I was getting down, Spike couldn't stop laughing at me. And then I got really angry, and I said, what's so effing funny? And he laughed again. And I just went off,"}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 29, "text": "What a great story. So you did that iconic dance at the beginning of \"Do The Right Thing.\" You know, and I watched it again recently, and it's such a dance of strength and power. You know, in part of it, you're wearing boxing gloves, like, pink boxing gloves, and I know you loved watching boxing as a kid, and I think maybe you still do. And that sense of, like, this is about strength and power is so evident in your dancing. Like, a lot of dancing is all about, like, I'm so sexy. And I'm not saying that your dancing isn't sexy but just that it conveys a whole lot of strength.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that's when he goes, you're an actress. I said, no, I'm not an actress. He goes, oh, yes, you are. And, you know, he told his business producer - Monty Ross, I believe his name was - to give me a "}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 30, "text": "Eight hours.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, well, thank you. I have to give the credit to Spike. We had a different choreographed routine for the opening, and Spike just kept saying it's not working 'cause it was - the opening song for \"Do "}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 31, "text": "You must have been exhausted afterwards.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One break for lunch. Yes. And I was..."}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 32, "text": "Well, we need to take a short break here, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Rosie Perez. We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was exhausted. I was tired. There was times where I was crying. I developed tennis elbow from throwing those horrible punches I was throwing 'cause I was so tired. And the very last take I said, I'm"}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 33, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Rosie Perez. When we left off, we were talking about the dance she choreographed and performed for the opening credit sequence of Spike Lee's \"Do The Right Thing.\" That was a movie that it felt like everybody saw it. And, like, it was one of those, like, you have to see the movie, and you have to have an opinion about it. Is it true that the Obamas saw it on their first date?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was exhausted. I was tired. There was times where I was crying. I developed tennis elbow from throwing those horrible punches I was throwing 'cause I was so tired. And the very last take I said, I'm"}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And I go, hello, Senator. And he goes, Rosie Perez. And I said, you know who I am? And he says, yeah, my wife and I, that was our first date. We saw \"Do The Right Thing.\" I went, oh, my God. You saw"}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 35, "text": "But, you know, OK, so you were embarrassed because he saw you naked. You do have that one nude scene where it's a very hot day. And you're basically saying, it's too hot to make love. And so Spike Lee's character puts ice cubes on your naked body and runs them across your body. Did your father see the film? I mean, if he was upset at you dancing on \"Soul Train,\" I can't imagine how he'd feel about \"Do The Right Thing.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he laughed so hard. And I flushed with embarrassment."}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 36, "text": "Are you serious?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He almost had a heart attack, literally. They had to rush him to the hospital. It was so bad..."}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 37, "text": "Oh, no.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I'm serious. You can ask my sister, Carmen. This is the God's truth. He invited the entire town of Aguadilla..."}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 38, "text": "Oh, no.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And when the part came up, they said he stood up and grabbed his heart. Like, you know how \"Sanford And Son\" - he would say, Elizabeth."}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 39, "text": "Oh, that's great. But you had your own problems with that nude scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We both started laughing. And I said, OK. And I said, you got it. And then I flew down there to be with him. And, you know, oh - and I thought he would be so ashamed to walk around town with me - on t"}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 40, "text": "And this was before - protocol surrounding, like, nude scenes and sex scenes on set have really changed in recent years. But this was long before that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 41, "text": "He was the cinematographer on the film.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, in fairness to Spike, I did agree to the nudity. He had to ask permission. My father couldn't make it to New York. And I was like, thank God, 'cause I didn't want to tell him. But my bro"}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 42, "text": "How come you needed family permission? Were you underage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was the cinematographer. And I got up. And Ruth Carter put a rope around me. And she gave me the biggest hug. And Spike was so confused. He goes, but you knew what I was doing. You agreed to it. An"}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 43, "text": "So you just wanted your family permission?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I'm Puerto Rican."}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 44, "text": "Well, it gave you your start as an actress.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thought it was the right thing to do."}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 45, "text": "And you worked with him on the reboot of \"Do The Right Thing\" for TV.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it did. And I am forever grateful. And Spike and I - and people always think, like, you know, why are you disrespecting Spike Lee? I'm not disrespecting Spike Lee. I'm telling you the truth of wh"}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 46, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Rosie Perez. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly, you know? We stayed friends all these years. I'm very grateful to Spike."}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 47, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded last May with Rosie Perez. When we spoke last May, she was in two series, \"The Flight Attendant\" and \"Now And Then.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly, you know? We stayed friends all these years. I'm very grateful to Spike."}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 48, "text": "You know, in your first acting role in \"Do The Right Thing,\" you were cast in that role because Spike saw something in your own personality that would translate perfectly to the role that he had written - you know, talking back, kind of combative, strong-willed person who was also, like, very attractive and could dance great", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly, you know? We stayed friends all these years. I'm very grateful to Spike."}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 49, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly, you know? We stayed friends all these years. I'm very grateful to Spike."}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 50, "text": "But in 1993, in the film \"Fearless,\" you played a very different kind of character. You're in a plane crash holding your infant baby, and you're told before the plane crashes, you know, like, just, like, hold tight. And, you know, the baby kind of falls out of your arms and doesn't survive the crash, and you are so damaged after that. You are so depressed and wounded and overwhelmed with feelings of guilt and despair. Was that a whole new thing for you to kind of tap into that as an actor?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 51, "text": "You know, you're talking about channeling all these emotions, including guilt. I mean, the character feels guilt because her infant died, and she thinks, like, I just didn't hold my baby tight enough. It's all my fault. But you were feeling guilt as a child. Did you think that you were in the Catholic home basically for orphans because you were unlovable, because you did something wrong? Did you feel guilty for being there, that it was your fault?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, that was the easiest thing for me to do as an actor. And I was surprised how easy it was. And what allowed me to do it so well was the confidence that the director, Peter Weir, had in me. I felt i"}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 52, "text": "You were a product of an affair. Your mother had you in an extramarital relationship...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes. My mother used to tell me I was ugly all the time, told me I looked like my ugly father all the time. She would tell me, nobody wants you. She would tell me all of these things. And so I tho"}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 53, "text": "...With your father.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 54, "text": "Rosie, I don't know, like, how you survived your childhood and managed to have such a successful career and such an interesting life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 55, "text": "When did that happen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I always - like I said, I always knew I was special. And some people would say that's arrogant, and it's not. It really isn't. It's just - I felt that from all the good people in - that were in my lif"}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 56, "text": "So your mother had been imprisoned there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That happened when I met Eve Ensler, when I did \"The Vagina Monologues.\" And she takes me - she goes, oh, we're doing this women's writing program up at Bedford Correctional Facility. And I said, why "}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 57, "text": "You grew up with your family being taken away from you. Your mother put you in the Catholic home for girls. Your aunt, who loved you, was not allowed to raise you because your mother wouldn't let her. But, you know, you're married. You're in a stable relationship. Do you feel like you have something that you always wanted when you were young but couldn't have?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And she said, I'm sending you to a psychiatrist. I go, psychiatrist? And I got really quiet. And she says, you're not mentally ill like your mom. Don't worry. And I went to Dr. Catharine Fedeli, and I"}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 58, "text": "Oh, I'm so glad you found that and that you have it. Rosie Perez, it's really just been wonderful to talk with you. I'm so grateful to you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, I cannot believe you said that. Absolutely, yes. Of all the difficult things you've asked me during this interview, this is - you've got me. Yes. Yes. I have a wonderful husband. He gets me. He"}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 59, "text": "Me, too. My interview with Rosie Perez was recorded last May. And that concludes our series of some of our favorite interviews from 2022. Tomorrow, we return to new interviews, and we'll hear from Robert Gottlieb, one of the most important book editors of our time. The new documentary \"Turn Every Page\" is about his 50-year sometimes-contentious relationship with Robert Caro, editing Caro's books about LBJ and Caro's now-classic \"The Power Broker: Robert Moses And The Fall of New York.\" I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But it's all good. And I appreciate the time we've had together."}
{"id": "1146002055", "date": "2023-01-02", "guest": "Rosie Perez", "title": "More than fame and success, Rosie Perez found what she always wanted \u2014 a stable home", "question_index": 60, "text": "FRESH AIR'S executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering today from Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But it's all good. And I appreciate the time we've had together."}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 0, "text": "That's The Delfonics, recorded in 1968, produced, arranged and co-written by my guest, Thom Bell.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Many guys have come to you with a line that wasn't true, and you passed them by. Passed them by. Now you're in the center ring, and their lines don't mean a thing. Why don't you let me try? "}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 1, "text": "And conducted. Thank you. Thom Bell, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And conducted."}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 2, "text": "Well, we just heard one of your early hits. Would you talk a little bit about your concept for that record, \"La La Means I Love You\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you. Thank you. We appreciate being here."}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 3, "text": "You're talking about classical music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've always - because I was studying to be a concert pianist from the time I was 6 until I was 22..."}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 4, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. That's what I was studying to be. I worked with Andre Watts at the time..."}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 5, "text": "And one of the few African American, very successful classical musicians of his generation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Which was, you know, the No. 1 - not only the Black pianist, but a concert pianist, period."}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 6, "text": "So you didn't know pop music? You didn't know soul music, rhythm and blues?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Right. When we were kids, we used to do - in those days, they were called recitals. Now they're called concerts. We'd do our little - play our little things and our little prelude in C Sharp an"}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 7, "text": "So you kind of brought both. You know, you had strings and harps and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No. What I heard was strictly coming from the symphonic end."}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 8, "text": "Did he do that? He's most famous for his Sinatra arrangements.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. I brought all of that. I brought all those things from what I would - had come from, the world I had come from. And that the very first thing I heard that really made me believe what I was hear"}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 9, "text": "Did you sing in falsetto?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And Teddy Randazzo was the writer. He and I think Weinstein (ph) - I believe that was his name. But I always remember Teddy Randazzo because I met him once, and that was the highlight of my life"}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, let's hear another record that you arranged. And you're talking about the classical influence on your music because you were brought up playing classical music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I'm a natural tenor. I don't have a falsetto. But I'm naturally high like that, so I hear high artists."}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 11, "text": "OK. So we're going to hear something from The Stylistics, which is another band that you worked with. And this is the early '70s we're talking..", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 12, "text": "A group. A band, right. Yeah. OK. So we're going to hear \"Betcha By Golly Wow,\" another song that you co-wrote. And this has a kind of long symphonic introduction. So before it we hear it, I want to ask you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A group."}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 13, "text": "Yeah. Did you think that this would be a good thing, a long symphonic introduction? Or did you think, well, the soul music crowd might get a little impatient while this introduction is playing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "How I came..."}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 14, "text": "Oh, you did?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "First place, there are areas of music that people do want to hear. They were - I've heard many people say Black people don't want to hear that, and Black people don't do this, and Black people don't d"}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 15, "text": "She's a lyricist, so I was thinking it was her.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. It takes a nut to do something like that."}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 16, "text": "Did anyone say to you, those are corny expressions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, she was the best. That's one of the rare times she didn't write the lyric. I came up with it, and she looked at me like I was crazy. She said, Bell, you're nuts. And no one ever called Linda. We a"}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course. They - but over the years, I had learned never to let people hear my thoughts. It's like in \"The Godfather.\""}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My man told his son, hey, what's wrong with you? You never let people know your thoughts. Well, I had been called whacked in the head as a child."}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 19, "text": "Oh, you just heard music in your head.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And - now, they wanted me - the teachers wanted me - the principal of the school wanted my mother to take me to the psychiatrist because - here's this little kid; he hears music. And that's..."}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 20, "text": "And one more thing before we actually hear \"Betcha By Golly, Wow\" - is that an oboe in the beginning?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just heard it in my mind. And I'm singing and tapping on things. They thought something was wrong with me. So I had learned to keep all those kinds of thoughts, even to this day, to myself. And you "}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 21, "text": "OK, well, let's hear \"Betcha By Golly, Wow,\" co-written by my guest, Thom Bell. He also arranged it, produced it and conducted it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that's - let's see. Was that an oboe or was that cor anglais? (Humming). That was an oboe. A cor anglais is an English horn. I would use them interspersed - I would intersperse the two, depending"}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 22, "text": "OK, big hit from 1972. And this is The Stylistics.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 23, "text": "That's The Stylistics, and the song was co-written, produced, arranged and conducted by my guest, Thom Bell. You know, we talked about the oboe at the beginning there. What's the most unusual instruments that you've ever used?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) There's a spark of magic in your eyes. Candyland appears each time you smile. Never thought that fairy tales came true. But they come true when I'm near you. You're a genie in disguise - ooh"}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 24, "text": "Right, right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let me say this. Each instrument is designed for a specific kind of reaction that you're trying to get or a feeling that you're trying to relay. So when you say unusual, they all are unusual if you do"}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 25, "text": "When you take a group like The Stylistics into the studio, and you want them to get a sense of your concept for the sound of the record, how would you describe it to them? Would you sing them all their parts?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2006 interview with Thom Bell, one of the architects of the Philly sound, who died last month at the age of 79. Before he joined Philadelphia International"}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 26, "text": "Well, Thom Bell, let's go a little deeper back into your career before we get to your work with Philadelphia International Records. Let's start with some other Philadelphia-related work, and that is one of your first real major music jobs was - what? - conducting for Chubby Checker.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. What I do - once I narrow that melody down, once I work on it, work on it, work on until I cannot get any further - and Linda Creed or William Hart or Denise Williams or Phil Hurt and the writers"}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 27, "text": "Who - this was before or after he had his big hit, \"The Twist\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes."}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 28, "text": "This was after.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, this was after."}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 29, "text": "Oh, for Cameo Parkway?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not only did I conduct, I was a songwriter for his company"}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 30, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 31, "text": "Oh, for his own company?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, for his publishing company."}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 32, "text": "Wow. Don't spend it all in one place.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, for Chubby's. He had Evans - I think it was Evans Music (ph) - Evansville (ph) - one of the two. And I made $29 a week as a writer for his company."}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 33, "text": "So what was your job working with Chubby Checker?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was scared."}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 34, "text": "And I think you were the house pianist for Cameo Parkway Records, which was a Philadelphia label that had a lot of hits with the help of getting played on Dick Clark's \"American Bandstand,\" which, like the record label, was in Philadelphia. Working as a house pianist for a record label, did you learn things not only that you wanted to do when you got into the studio but things that you did not want to do? Did you learn some of the wrong ways as well as the right ways?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, I was a writer for his publishing company and also writing music for his - some of his shows and doing a little conducting for him."}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 35, "text": "Let's get to something that you're very well known for, which is your work for Philadelphia International Records, which creates what became known as the Philly sound, label created by Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff. And you were a key arranger in there. You met Gamble in a singing group - right? - in the Romeos. You sang with his...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What I did was - yes, I did. I learned. I watched. I watched the things that took a long time to do because things weren't prepared correctly. And I watched things that went smoothly because things we"}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 36, "text": "Before that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, I met him before that."}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 37, "text": "I see where you're going.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. My sister - I have a sister that was in his room in school at high school. And he happened - she happened to help him do his homework - at least that's what they said. I have a feeling..."}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 38, "text": "So when he started the record label, he asked you to work there, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he came in. And I was at the piano rehearsing. He said, hey, man, you play piano? I said, yes. He said, I write songs. I said, that's great. He said, my name is Kenny Gamble and you're who? I'm To"}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 39, "text": "Did you have different resources when you were working for Philadelphia International than you did before that? Did you have more money to produce things? Did you have a bigger orchestra at your disposal, different kind of rhythm section?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I was working for another company, Philly Groove Records, with The Delfonics at the time. And I was leaving that situation because they were going in another direction, the company was. And I was"}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 40, "text": "When you think of the Philly sound, what comes to your mind?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Only you, care when I needed a friend, believed in me through thick and thin. This song is for you, filled with gratitude and love. God bless you. You make me feel brand-new. For God blessed"}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 41, "text": "That's cheating.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What comes to mind is cheesesteaks."}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 42, "text": "When you're asked to describe what the Philly sound means to you, can you break it down musically into something that you think is unique about those Philadelphia productions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And when I say cheesesteaks, I mean that there's only one place in the world that you can get a fantastic cheesesteak, and that's Philadelphia. And I don't care where you go. You can find the mom-and-"}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 43, "text": "I want to play what was one of the first big hits of Philadelphia International Records. And it's a record that you arranged. And it's The O'Jays \"Backstabbers,\" which has a very dramatic introduction. Talk about the introduction that you put together for this record.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You can break it down musically into different modes of chord structures, augmented and diminished, and major minor chords. Other cities were doing the same - they were doing - see, there are 88 keys "}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 44, "text": "So what kind of mood did you want hear and what kind of sound in that dramatic rendition?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When they gave me the track, the tracks were done. The rhythm tracks were done already. And some of those things, the guitar parts were in there, something like that. And what all I did was to broaden"}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 45, "text": "Grandiose.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Grandiose."}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 46, "text": "Well, it actually has a kind of action film sound to it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did - let's see. In the beginning, the strings were doing tremolandos and - the very beginning did a sweep, did a glissando with the harp. And, I mean, that grabbed you - dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, du"}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 47, "text": "OK. Here's the O'Jays' \"Backstabbers,\" arranged by my guest, Thom Bell.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, backstabbing is action. When you talk about - you listen to the, smile on your face, all the time, they want to take your place, those backstabbers. That's mysterious, man. That's dangerous stu"}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 48, "text": "The O'Jays' big hit \"Backstabbers,\" a Philadelphia International Records hit, helped establish the record label. And my guest, Thom Bell, arranged that. And you're associated with the Philly sound. You moved to Philadelphia when you were about 5. You were born and spent the first five years of your life in Jamaica.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) What they do? They're smiling in your face. All the time, they want to take your place, the backstabbers. Backstabbers. They're smiling in your face. All the time, they want to take your pla"}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 49, "text": "Three or 4. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I was born in Kingston, Jamaica. But I was moved - my parents moved me here when I was about 3, 3 or 4 years of age."}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 50, "text": "So your parents were Jamaican.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 51, "text": "So did you feel culturally different when you were growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 52, "text": "Why was he worse?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, at times - at times because my mother talked funny. And my father - most people never saw my father because he used to work 12, 14 hours a day. Culturally, coming up - because I remember when th"}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 53, "text": "And he taught botany, didn't he?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He would wear the top hat and wear the long coats and the boutonniere, what you call a flower in the lapel. And, oh, man, oh, man, oh, man, he was a doozy. And guys would really laugh at him."}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 54, "text": "And what did your mother do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He was a botanist. He was a botanist and a horticulturist. He had two Ph. degrees."}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 55, "text": "So tell me - you know, you grew up. Your parents were Jamaican. You listened mostly to classical music until you were in your teens.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mother was - actually, she was an executive secretary to the - one of the principal people at the university. She could type, like, 140 words a minute on a manual typewriter. She does not like electri"}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 56, "text": "So when you started producing soul music and rhythm and blues, did you feel like you had just, like, a different frame of reference than the singers and musicians, particularly the singers that you were working with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yes."}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 57, "text": "Were you poor when you were growing up...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't know the difference. I didn't - I don't know the difference. And they might have known the difference. But they didn't talk about it. They didn't say, what is this? They didn't say that becau"}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 58, "text": "...Because it sounds like your mother had a really decent job?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 59, "text": "Let's get back to your production and songwriting work. I want to play something that you did with the Spinners. Now, they had their first Top 40 hit in 1961. But you were working with them in the '70s.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2006 interview with Thom Bell, one of the architects of the Philly sound. He died last month at the age of 79. Before he joined Philadelphia International "}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 60, "text": "What state was their career in when you started to work with them? And how did you get matched up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 61, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Their career wasn't in great shape. At the time, I don't think the company that they were with - in fact, I know that the guy had gotten rid of them, or they had left. Somewhere along the line, they p"}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 62, "text": "Before we hear the Spinners, I have to ask you - this is the era where a lot of rhythm and blues groups are wearing orange jumpsuits and the big hats and the big hair with the big, bushy sideburns and gold medallions. And, you know, what'd you think of that? Did you ever dress that way? And what did you think of that as stage clothing? Did it work for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I called them and said, are these - is that - do you have the Spinners from Motown? They said, oh, yeah, we're getting ready to get rid of them. I said, please, whoa, don't get rid of them yet 'cau"}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 63, "text": "How could you not pay - it's so unmissable", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I never paid any attention to it. I never dressed..."}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 64, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I never paid any attention to it. I never dressed..."}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 65, "text": "It's been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mind - I'm a weird guy. My mind is on music all the time. And the things that most people see, I don't even see. I don't pay attention to it. I don't pay any attention to the shoes, the socks, the "}
{"id": "1147112920", "date": "2023-01-06", "guest": "The Delfonics", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers an icon of Philly sound, music producer Thom Bell", "question_index": 66, "text": "That's right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you for asking me to come. It's been my pleasure coming back to Philadelphia and sitting with you guys. WHYY used to be at 46th and Market Street."}
{"id": "1147801444", "date": "2023-01-09", "guest": "Jonathan Escoffery", "title": "'If I Survive You' author grew up feeling judged \u2014 and confused \u2014 by race", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I am Terry Gross. The year is new, and no one yet knows what the best books of this year will be. But many critics, including our book critic, Maureen Corrigan, agree that one of the best books of 2022 was written by my guest, Jonathan Escoffery. We didn't catch up with him in 2022, but we're going to do that now. Maureen's review is what made me want to read the book. \"Here's what she said about why he's on her best of list. Jonathan Escoffery's debut collection of eight interconnected short stories overwhelmed me with its originality, heart, wit and sweeping social vision. Escoffery's aspiring, mostly Jamaican-born immigrant characters keep getting knocked down by racism, the 2008 recession and, most literally, by Hurricane Andrew in 1992, which reduces their house to its skeletal frame. But in its larger sense, the you in the title 'If I Survive You' is America itself.\" Unquote Maureen. Like the main character, Trelawney, Jonathan Escoffery is an American-born son of Jamaican parents who left the island in the '70s and settled in Miami, where Escoffery was raised. Growing up in a racially and ethnically diverse city, the character, Trelawney, is never sure who he is. He's considered brown, not Black. But most of the brown students in school are Dominican or Puerto Rican, and he's not either. He becomes an aspiring writer but supports himself doing odd jobs, sometimes creepy or unethical ones, and for a while, is living out of his car. A lot of that is drawn from Escoffery's life, but Escoffery went to grad school and founded the Boston Writers of Color group, which currently has more than 2,000 members. He's received grants and fellowships. He's now a Wallace Stegner fellow at Stanford University and attends the University of Southern California's Ph.D. program in creative writing and literature as a Provost fellow. Jonathan Escoffery, welcome to FRESH AIR. I really enjoyed your book. I want you to read from the very beginning of the book, and this is a slightly condensed version of the beginning.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1147801444", "date": "2023-01-09", "guest": "Jonathan Escoffery", "title": "'If I Survive You' author grew up feeling judged \u2014 and confused \u2014 by race", "question_index": 1, "text": "OK, so translate what your mother said and what your brother said.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. And thank you for having me. This is from the beginning of the book and from a story titled \"Influx.\" (Reading) It begins with, what are you, hollered from the perimeter of your front yard"}
{"id": "1147801444", "date": "2023-01-09", "guest": "Jonathan Escoffery", "title": "'If I Survive You' author grew up feeling judged \u2014 and confused \u2014 by race", "question_index": 2, "text": "Did you grow up speaking patois as well as standard American English?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She's saying you can spill things all over the tile, but you can't go ahead and clean it up. And Delano, the older brother of Trelawney, is saying, I didn't do it, Mom. And Trelawney is saying the sam"}
{"id": "1147801444", "date": "2023-01-09", "guest": "Jonathan Escoffery", "title": "'If I Survive You' author grew up feeling judged \u2014 and confused \u2014 by race", "question_index": 3, "text": "Did they understand you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did not. And I was somebody who was placed in day cares from an early age much like Trelawney. And I didn't really pick up what I might call my parents' language whereas my brother certainly did a l"}
{"id": "1147801444", "date": "2023-01-09", "guest": "Jonathan Escoffery", "title": "'If I Survive You' author grew up feeling judged \u2014 and confused \u2014 by race", "question_index": 4, "text": "So in the U.S., patois said foreign. What did it mean in Jamaica? Was speaking patois in Jamaica a sign of class?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They did, but I think maybe I found them a little befuddling. And I think my parents found me to be a little bit of this strange, foreign American child who was growing up in their Jamaican household."}
{"id": "1147801444", "date": "2023-01-09", "guest": "Jonathan Escoffery", "title": "'If I Survive You' author grew up feeling judged \u2014 and confused \u2014 by race", "question_index": 5, "text": "Was your family part of the lower class?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was. And here's the thing. I think a lot of Americans might listen to how Jamaicans speak, hear an accent, and think that that is speaking patois. Whereas in Jamaica, it's a very different thing. P"}
{"id": "1147801444", "date": "2023-01-09", "guest": "Jonathan Escoffery", "title": "'If I Survive You' author grew up feeling judged \u2014 and confused \u2014 by race", "question_index": 6, "text": "So Trelawney, your main character, grows up in Miami and goes to majority minority schools, where there's few white people. Most of the students are Puerto Rican, Dominican, African American, Jamaican. And people are always asking, what are you, so they kind of know what team you're on. And Trelawney has trouble answering that question because one of the questions he's not sure of is, are you Black? What does Black mean in Jamaica versus what it means in the U.S.?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So my family was part of the middle class. My father's family, prior to marrying my mother, they were more of a kind of upper-middle class. And my mother was maybe more on the lower-middle class, but "}
{"id": "1147801444", "date": "2023-01-09", "guest": "Jonathan Escoffery", "title": "'If I Survive You' author grew up feeling judged \u2014 and confused \u2014 by race", "question_index": 7, "text": "So when people asked you when you were young, like, what are you - meaning, what race or ethnicity, what group do you belong to? - how would you answer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's this interesting thing where it's constantly - or at least it has slowly changed over the years. And so where I may travel to Jamaica and talk to the lightest-skinned Jamaican I meet and "}
{"id": "1147801444", "date": "2023-01-09", "guest": "Jonathan Escoffery", "title": "'If I Survive You' author grew up feeling judged \u2014 and confused \u2014 by race", "question_index": 8, "text": "So you're talking about, like, kids from Puerto Rico or the Dominican Republic.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And for me, it's like I had an answer, but I didn't necessarily know what the answer meant. And so when I would go to school and I might start naturally hanging out with some people who might have f"}
{"id": "1147801444", "date": "2023-01-09", "guest": "Jonathan Escoffery", "title": "'If I Survive You' author grew up feeling judged \u2014 and confused \u2014 by race", "question_index": 9, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, a lot of the..."}
{"id": "1147801444", "date": "2023-01-09", "guest": "Jonathan Escoffery", "title": "'If I Survive You' author grew up feeling judged \u2014 and confused \u2014 by race", "question_index": 10, "text": "What are some of the prejudices in each direction?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. A lot of the Latino kids, the Puerto Ricans, the Dominicans. And some of them would actually think that I was Puerto Rican or Dominican. And so I think there - in order to protect myself from t"}
{"id": "1147801444", "date": "2023-01-09", "guest": "Jonathan Escoffery", "title": "'If I Survive You' author grew up feeling judged \u2014 and confused \u2014 by race", "question_index": 11, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jonathan Escoffery. His book, \"If I Survive You,\" focuses on the American-born son of Jamaican parents and his extended family. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think there's this assumption in the Black American community that Black people from the Caribbean think they're better. When I say better, I mean they think that they have, in a way, gotten o"}
{"id": "1147801444", "date": "2023-01-09", "guest": "Jonathan Escoffery", "title": "'If I Survive You' author grew up feeling judged \u2014 and confused \u2014 by race", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jonathan Escoffery, author of the acclaimed book \"If I Survive You,\" a collection of interconnected stories. Like the main character, Escoffery grew up in Miami the son of Jamaican immigrants. So your character - and I think this is when he's in college - thinks, when I say Jamaica to non-Jamaicans, no one thinks of CIA operatives or puppet prime ministers, of historical continuity. Instead, they break into free association, Bob Marley, ganja, poor people, Sandals - hey, man. At best, they believe our history began the moment they purchased their all-inclusive vacation package. So what do you think of when you're watching TV and you see ads for Sandals? And Sandals is this, like, all-inclusive resort that has different branches. And certainly, one of them is in Jamaica. And they advertise on their website. It's like rolling mountains, wild rivers, enchanting waterfalls, magnificent palm-fringed beaches by day, colorful skies, authentic reggae music and flavorful dishes by night. And you don't have to worry about a thing. Food, drink, water sports and world-class entertainment are all included, always unlimited. Our staff is ready to welcome you to paradise. What do you think of when you read that or hear that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think there's this assumption in the Black American community that Black people from the Caribbean think they're better. When I say better, I mean they think that they have, in a way, gotten o"}
{"id": "1147801444", "date": "2023-01-09", "guest": "Jonathan Escoffery", "title": "'If I Survive You' author grew up feeling judged \u2014 and confused \u2014 by race", "question_index": 13, "text": "The character Trelawney is mocked for sounding white, and so he is mocked on both ends. He's mocked because his parents speak in patois. And he's mocked because he sounds white. Did you deal with that in your own life, that people said, in an accusing way, that you sounded white?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, well, one thing I have to acknowledge is that a very large part of the economy in Jamaica in particular, in many parts of the Caribbean - the economy is tied to tourism. The problem is w"}
{"id": "1147801444", "date": "2023-01-09", "guest": "Jonathan Escoffery", "title": "'If I Survive You' author grew up feeling judged \u2014 and confused \u2014 by race", "question_index": 14, "text": "The character in your book is accused of plagiarism because his essay sounds too white to be believable, so he must have plagiarized it. Did that happen to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I absolutely did. My family moved from Miami in 1992 after Hurricane Andrew. We moved to Broward County to a city called Miramar. And so I was in a new school, a new city. And I was absolutely told th"}
{"id": "1147801444", "date": "2023-01-09", "guest": "Jonathan Escoffery", "title": "'If I Survive You' author grew up feeling judged \u2014 and confused \u2014 by race", "question_index": 15, "text": "What happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Something very similar happened to me in ninth grade. Yes."}
{"id": "1147801444", "date": "2023-01-09", "guest": "Jonathan Escoffery", "title": "'If I Survive You' author grew up feeling judged \u2014 and confused \u2014 by race", "question_index": 16, "text": "Did that make you angry, that you had to dumb down, you had to pretend to not be as smart and as good a writer as you really were?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was doing a - some kind of science report. And my teacher basically said, you know, this doesn't sound like you and - but it was after, you know, maybe half a year of seeing how the other Blac"}
{"id": "1147801444", "date": "2023-01-09", "guest": "Jonathan Escoffery", "title": "'If I Survive You' author grew up feeling judged \u2014 and confused \u2014 by race", "question_index": 17, "text": "How did it affect your ability to get into a college that you wanted to go to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It made me angry. It made me very confused. It was among the first times where I started to wonder if I could ever escape the assumptions that were going to be made about me throughout my life. And I "}
{"id": "1147801444", "date": "2023-01-09", "guest": "Jonathan Escoffery", "title": "'If I Survive You' author grew up feeling judged \u2014 and confused \u2014 by race", "question_index": 18, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jonathan Escoffery. His book is called \"If I Survive You,\" and it focuses on the American-born son of Jamaican parents and his extended family. We'll be right back after a short break. I am Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, around maybe midway through 11th grade, getting into 12th grade, I started to think about, you know, where my mediocre grades had gotten me. I went to a college fair, and I spoke with a recruite"}
{"id": "1147801444", "date": "2023-01-09", "guest": "Jonathan Escoffery", "title": "'If I Survive You' author grew up feeling judged \u2014 and confused \u2014 by race", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Jonathan Escoffery, author of the acclaimed book \"If I Survive You,\" a collection of interconnected stories. Like the main character, Escoffery grew up in Miami, the son of Jamaican immigrants. In a world where your identity is connected to whether you're white, Black, brown or Asian, it was confusing to figure out where he fit and how he was perceived by others. \"If I Survive You\" is on our book critic Maureen Corrigan's list of the best books of 2022. But we're just catching up with Escoffery now. Jonathan, why did your parents leave Jamaica?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, around maybe midway through 11th grade, getting into 12th grade, I started to think about, you know, where my mediocre grades had gotten me. I went to a college fair, and I spoke with a recruite"}
{"id": "1147801444", "date": "2023-01-09", "guest": "Jonathan Escoffery", "title": "'If I Survive You' author grew up feeling judged \u2014 and confused \u2014 by race", "question_index": 20, "text": "So there's a chapter in your book devoted to, like, how messed up your home was. Like, one of your homes in Florida, there were, like, millipedes and nighthawks swooping down and crabs on the streets. It was just, like, the house felt, like, haunted by, you know, creatures. So I imagine that's pretty realistic in parts of Florida and that there's probably really big roaches. And what's the name of the bug I'm thinking of?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My parents left Jamaica for a similar reason that the parents in my book leave Jamaica, which is that the crime rate had absolutely exploded and they were not just reading it in the newspaper or seein"}
{"id": "1147801444", "date": "2023-01-09", "guest": "Jonathan Escoffery", "title": "'If I Survive You' author grew up feeling judged \u2014 and confused \u2014 by race", "question_index": 21, "text": "The palmetto, yes, the palmetto bug.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The palmetto bug."}
{"id": "1147801444", "date": "2023-01-09", "guest": "Jonathan Escoffery", "title": "'If I Survive You' author grew up feeling judged \u2014 and confused \u2014 by race", "question_index": 22, "text": "Yes, exactly. So were you plagued by that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Which is our roach"}
{"id": "1147801444", "date": "2023-01-09", "guest": "Jonathan Escoffery", "title": "'If I Survive You' author grew up feeling judged \u2014 and confused \u2014 by race", "question_index": 23, "text": "It just seems so surreal to me to think of, like, crabs in the street.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We were plagued by all of those things. Yeah. The millipedes were everywhere. The nighthawks definitely attacked us. The crabs were everywhere, though I was a little bit more fascinated than afraid of"}
{"id": "1147801444", "date": "2023-01-09", "guest": "Jonathan Escoffery", "title": "'If I Survive You' author grew up feeling judged \u2014 and confused \u2014 by race", "question_index": 24, "text": "I hadn't thought of that - from the claws?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. And Cutler Ridge is - it's right along the coast. And so the crabs would just come in in waves. It's been a long time since I've seen them come in in such numbers. But certainly, when I was "}
{"id": "1147801444", "date": "2023-01-09", "guest": "Jonathan Escoffery", "title": "'If I Survive You' author grew up feeling judged \u2014 and confused \u2014 by race", "question_index": 25, "text": "You took a break from college of several years. In that period in between, you did a lot of odd jobs. And I mean that in both senses of the term odd jobs. When Trelawney, the character in your book, is doing odd jobs, whatever he can get to make a living and to kind of keep a roof over his head as opposed to living in his car, a couple of his jobs come from classifieds, like, from Craigslist. And one of them is a woman who wants to be punched in the face. She wants to know what it feels like. And she's also doing a photography project. That's what she says anyways. And her ad says, no Black men. Your character shows up anyway. And then there's a couple looking for a Black man to watch them have sex. So, of course, I'm curious to know if you took jobs like this or know somebody who did and whether it was just, like, research looking for - looking through Craigslist and similar places to see what kind of weird jobs were out there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "From the claws, yeah. But I remember as a kid, you know, my brother and I, we were catching them for sport, especially when they weren't necessarily washing in front of my house in the hundreds, but t"}
{"id": "1147801444", "date": "2023-01-09", "guest": "Jonathan Escoffery", "title": "'If I Survive You' author grew up feeling judged \u2014 and confused \u2014 by race", "question_index": 26, "text": "Like what?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was primarily looking for jobs for myself. Many of the weirder jobs I did not show up for. And then there was the research arm where being a writer for many years, always looking for subject matter"}
{"id": "1147801444", "date": "2023-01-09", "guest": "Jonathan Escoffery", "title": "'If I Survive You' author grew up feeling judged \u2014 and confused \u2014 by race", "question_index": 27, "text": "Well, you said there were periods when you were poor. You were living out of your car for a while like your character, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like, well, like, don't show up Black, or we like a more European look, or it's OK if you are kind of the Caribbean-looking-mixed look. But, you know, there's a certain border. There's a certain line."}
{"id": "1147801444", "date": "2023-01-09", "guest": "Jonathan Escoffery", "title": "'If I Survive You' author grew up feeling judged \u2014 and confused \u2014 by race", "question_index": 28, "text": "When you say you slept in your car, what do you mean by that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no, I have - I wouldn't say that I was living out of my car for a while. No. I am someone who has slept in his car as the result of the many hustles that I've had to do to put myself through col"}
{"id": "1147801444", "date": "2023-01-09", "guest": "Jonathan Escoffery", "title": "'If I Survive You' author grew up feeling judged \u2014 and confused \u2014 by race", "question_index": 29, "text": "Oh, OK. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There were times where we had no power. There was times where we..."}
{"id": "1147801444", "date": "2023-01-09", "guest": "Jonathan Escoffery", "title": "'If I Survive You' author grew up feeling judged \u2014 and confused \u2014 by race", "question_index": 30, "text": "Where would you park the car?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...We - our water was out. But there were also times where I worked in Miami Beach, and I lived in Cutler Bay. And then, I had to go straight from my job to school, which was in North Miami. And it ju"}
{"id": "1147801444", "date": "2023-01-09", "guest": "Jonathan Escoffery", "title": "'If I Survive You' author grew up feeling judged \u2014 and confused \u2014 by race", "question_index": 31, "text": "Well, let's take another break here, and then, we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jonathan Escoffery. His book, \"If I Survive You,\" focuses on the American-born son of Jamaican parents and his extended family. It's a collection of interconnected short stories. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thankfully, while I was in college, it was easy enough to park on campus as long as I did actually have my decals that said I was a student. The great thing about being a student, you can also take a "}
{"id": "1147801444", "date": "2023-01-09", "guest": "Jonathan Escoffery", "title": "'If I Survive You' author grew up feeling judged \u2014 and confused \u2014 by race", "question_index": 32, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jonathan Escoffery, author of the acclaimed book \"If I Survive You,\" a collection of interconnected stories. Like the main character, Escoffery grew up in Miami the son of Jamaican immigrants. In a world where your identity is connected to whether you're Black, white, brown, Asian, it was confusing to figure out where he fit in and how he was perceived by the world. The book was on our book critic Maureen Corrigan's list of the best books of 2022. You managed to go to college and grad school and get fellowships and become an acclaimed writer. Your character Trelawney follows in your footsteps in a lot of ways but not in terms of the success you've had. Now, the story ends at a point where maybe he would go on to that kind of success that you've had and that kind of accomplishment. But, you know, unless you write a sequel, we're never going to know. Why didn't you want to give him the kind of, like, follow-through and success that you were able to achieve in your own life? It's as if he made all the kinds of wrong moves that you didn't make.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thankfully, while I was in college, it was easy enough to park on campus as long as I did actually have my decals that said I was a student. The great thing about being a student, you can also take a "}
{"id": "1147801444", "date": "2023-01-09", "guest": "Jonathan Escoffery", "title": "'If I Survive You' author grew up feeling judged \u2014 and confused \u2014 by race", "question_index": 33, "text": "What's an example of, you know, decisions you made or actions you took that you realized were leading you nowhere?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In a way, I was writing about my fears. I left Miami in 2011, and I never moved back. And I was thinking about what it might have been like had I actually moved back to Miami. I just didn't think that"}
{"id": "1147801444", "date": "2023-01-09", "guest": "Jonathan Escoffery", "title": "'If I Survive You' author grew up feeling judged \u2014 and confused \u2014 by race", "question_index": 34, "text": "In your acknowledgments, you thank your brother, Jason (ph) - you say, who taught me how to live in the world. What did he teach you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So coming from Miami, growing up in Miami, Miami - and there's a part of me that loves this about Miami, I should say. Miami is a very materialistic place. It's a very flashy place. It's the kind of p"}
{"id": "1147801444", "date": "2023-01-09", "guest": "Jonathan Escoffery", "title": "'If I Survive You' author grew up feeling judged \u2014 and confused \u2014 by race", "question_index": 35, "text": "Well, Jonathan Escoffery, it's been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much. I look forward to reading more from you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was a very introverted kid who would have happily just stuck with my books and never left the house. And my brother, who - given our age difference, he definitely had every excuse to not take me out"}
{"id": "1147801444", "date": "2023-01-09", "guest": "Jonathan Escoffery", "title": "'If I Survive You' author grew up feeling judged \u2014 and confused \u2014 by race", "question_index": 36, "text": "Jonathan Escoffery's book of interconnected short stories is called \"If I Survive You.\" After we take a short break, Ken Tucker will review SZA's new album, \"SOS.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me."}
{"id": "1149013814", "date": "2023-01-13", "guest": "Russell Banks", "title": "Remembering Russell Banks, a novelist who depicted working-class life", "question_index": 0, "text": "I'd like you to do a reading from \"Affliction,\" and this is a scene in which the father who beats his wife and his children is confronting his son. And the son has to figure out what to do. And this is the older son in the book, Wade.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross. Russell Banks, the author whose bestselling books include \"Affliction,\" \"Continental Drift\" and \"The Sweet Hereafter,\" died of cancer Sunday"}
{"id": "1149013814", "date": "2023-01-13", "guest": "Russell Banks", "title": "Remembering Russell Banks, a novelist who depicted working-class life", "question_index": 1, "text": "Wow. That's a terrific scene. You know, the two brothers in this book, one of them, Wade, who is in the scene that you just read, decided to fight back at some point. Whereas his other brother, his younger brother, Ralph (ph), learns to hang his head in shame and back away, something he learned from his mother.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, Wade. Wade is the protagonist, really, of the novel. And we're dealing with him as an adult, for the most part, for two weeks in his life, really. But this scene - and it takes place when he's a"}
{"id": "1149013814", "date": "2023-01-13", "guest": "Russell Banks", "title": "Remembering Russell Banks, a novelist who depicted working-class life", "question_index": 2, "text": "When you were growing up in a family with an abusive father, did that seem like the two alternatives, to hang your head in shame and back away or to learn how to fight back?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1149013814", "date": "2023-01-13", "guest": "Russell Banks", "title": "Remembering Russell Banks, a novelist who depicted working-class life", "question_index": 3, "text": "Which did you do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think that - yeah, for a boy, that's certainly the two alternatives because you can imagine and you internalize early - and then later put into action - that fantasy of revenge, of fighting ba"}
{"id": "1149013814", "date": "2023-01-13", "guest": "Russell Banks", "title": "Remembering Russell Banks, a novelist who depicted working-class life", "question_index": 4, "text": "Is the scene that you just read a scene from personal experience?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in a sense, I did both, I think, at different stages of my life. When I was very young - I mean, when I was in my late teens, early 20s and so on - I was one of those turbulent, violent young me"}
{"id": "1149013814", "date": "2023-01-13", "guest": "Russell Banks", "title": "Remembering Russell Banks, a novelist who depicted working-class life", "question_index": 5, "text": "Ralph, the brother who withdraws...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, to some degree. In terms of the boy wanting to defend his mother and understanding his role in the family as that, that was certainly something that I experienced emotionally and situationally, "}
{"id": "1149013814", "date": "2023-01-13", "guest": "Russell Banks", "title": "Remembering Russell Banks, a novelist who depicted working-class life", "question_index": 6, "text": "...Says at one point, I became a careful adult. It may have been a high price to pay, never having been carefree, but at least I avoided being afflicted by the man's violence. But he kind of comes to realize that there's other kinds of affliction from this violence, too...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1149013814", "date": "2023-01-13", "guest": "Russell Banks", "title": "Remembering Russell Banks, a novelist who depicted working-class life", "question_index": 7, "text": "...Which is the knowledge that you're withdrawing from life to protect yourself.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "1149013814", "date": "2023-01-13", "guest": "Russell Banks", "title": "Remembering Russell Banks, a novelist who depicted working-class life", "question_index": 8, "text": "And I was wondering at what point you started to realize that and also to fear this kind of deeper affliction, that it's something that you would carry, that in a way, someone who came from an abusive family might be something of a time bomb themselves.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "1149013814", "date": "2023-01-13", "guest": "Russell Banks", "title": "Remembering Russell Banks, a novelist who depicted working-class life", "question_index": 9, "text": "Russell Banks, thanks for reading that. You have some things in common with the character in your book. Your father was abusive. You were a rebellious teenager. But you were rebellious, I don't know, 30 some odd years ago. Were there mysteries that this character had for you that were partly maybe because of the times, because he's rebelling in the 1990s, and there are some things from what he might get tattooed to what he might be listening to, to how he's going to act out his rebellious feelings, you know, that would be different from yours?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) Anyhow, my life got interesting, you might say, the summer I turned 14 and was heavy into weed, but I didn't have any money to buy it with, so I started looking around the house all the time"}
{"id": "1149013814", "date": "2023-01-13", "guest": "Russell Banks", "title": "Remembering Russell Banks, a novelist who depicted working-class life", "question_index": 10, "text": "Your father, who was abusive, left your family when you were 12. So while he was part of the family, he was always bigger than you, probably a lot bigger than you. You were a kid. Did you ever confront him as a man?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, sure. The main thing, I think probably the most obvious thing, is drugs. When I was 16, I stole a car and ran across the country and disappeared for three months and, you know, did some of t"}
{"id": "1149013814", "date": "2023-01-13", "guest": "Russell Banks", "title": "Remembering Russell Banks, a novelist who depicted working-class life", "question_index": 11, "text": "There's something that I think I might have asked you about once before, but it still really interests me. You once said that your father felt that, you know, moving up in life was a betrayal, that it was somehow a rebuke of the life that he had led.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. We made our peace, actually. I went back and dealt with my father very closely. I even worked alongside him. He was a plumber, and I became a plumber and worked with him and even lived in hi"}
{"id": "1149013814", "date": "2023-01-13", "guest": "Russell Banks", "title": "Remembering Russell Banks, a novelist who depicted working-class life", "question_index": 12, "text": "And unless you were just doing some wheeler-dealer thing and finagling something...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1149013814", "date": "2023-01-13", "guest": "Russell Banks", "title": "Remembering Russell Banks, a novelist who depicted working-class life", "question_index": 13, "text": "...In which case that was fine. What do you think is the difference between the impulse to sacrifice for the children so the children can have more than you do and the impulse to feel, well, why should they have more than me - what's good enough for me is going to be good enough for them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1149013814", "date": "2023-01-13", "guest": "Russell Banks", "title": "Remembering Russell Banks, a novelist who depicted working-class life", "question_index": 14, "text": "So tell me more about why you think your father felt that, you know, if one of his kids moved up, it was somehow a betrayal?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it's a difference in believing in the American dream and no longer believing in the American dream, that if one generation sacrifices itself, the next - for the next generation, then tha"}
{"id": "1149013814", "date": "2023-01-13", "guest": "Russell Banks", "title": "Remembering Russell Banks, a novelist who depicted working-class life", "question_index": 15, "text": "Do you think that held you back for a long time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it probably - since he didn't feel he was sacrificing in his youth - my father's a very bright man, a very gifted man in many ways, who - he's a child of the Depression and went to work in this "}
{"id": "1149013814", "date": "2023-01-13", "guest": "Russell Banks", "title": "Remembering Russell Banks, a novelist who depicted working-class life", "question_index": 16, "text": "Was there a teacher who helped kind of counteract that sense of advancement as betrayal, who...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it injured my sense of self-esteem and made me feel, for a long time, essentially inadequate and incapable of achieving. I wasn't raised to believe that, really, that anything was possible for"}
{"id": "1149013814", "date": "2023-01-13", "guest": "Russell Banks", "title": "Remembering Russell Banks, a novelist who depicted working-class life", "question_index": 17, "text": "Did he help you figure out that you could use the stuff of your life as the subject of fiction?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Early on, in my early 20s, I had the great, good fortune to run into the novelist Nelson Algren when he was in his late 40s and I was in my early 20s. And it was purely, you know, fortuitous. An"}
{"id": "1149015284", "date": "2023-01-13", "guest": "Larry Sultan", "title": "Revisiting Larry Sultan's 'Pictures from Home,' a photo memoir of post-WWII life", "question_index": 0, "text": "Well, for your project \"Pictures From Home,\" you not only took a lot of new pictures of your parents and their house, but you used a lot of old family photos. So this required you going back and looking at lots of old pictures of your family. Did you find in a lot of the old photos that there was an almost ritualistic quality - pictures taken at parties, at vacations, at certain points in one's life when one is supposed to take pictures?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. \"Pictures From Home\" is a new show previewing on Broadway today starring Nathan Lane, Danny Burstein and Zoe Wanamaker. It's based on a 1992 photo memoir by the late photographer La"}
{"id": "1149015284", "date": "2023-01-13", "guest": "Larry Sultan", "title": "Revisiting Larry Sultan's 'Pictures from Home,' a photo memoir of post-WWII life", "question_index": 1, "text": "Can you tell me about the range of emotions that you experienced looking back at pictures of your parents when they were young?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. But I think - you know, I think you're right. They were not only ritualistic; I saw them as mythic pictures. And they weren't family snapshots. They were movies, and they were 8 mm films that beg"}
{"id": "1149015284", "date": "2023-01-13", "guest": "Larry Sultan", "title": "Revisiting Larry Sultan's 'Pictures from Home,' a photo memoir of post-WWII life", "question_index": 2, "text": "Now, in addition to old photographs, you also have some old documents in your piece - letters, for instance, welcoming your father into the Eversharp family when he started to sell razor blades. Why did you include some of these old documents, old business letters and things like that? And where did you find them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hmm. Boy, that's interesting because there's this phenomena where there's a double vision. All photographs, in a sense, are historical because the moment is gone. And so here I am looking at people wh"}
{"id": "1149015284", "date": "2023-01-13", "guest": "Larry Sultan", "title": "Revisiting Larry Sultan's 'Pictures from Home,' a photo memoir of post-WWII life", "question_index": 3, "text": "Now, you've had to take a lot of new photos of your parents for your project. Your parents, I'm sure, are used to smiling for photographs. And you tried to get candid shots. I think you, in fact, told them not to smile. What were their reactions to the kinds of photographs that you wanted?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was very important to include those because what I felt I was doing and, I think, what I've done is try to create a pattern of public life and private life, of family and business, of success"}
{"id": "1149015284", "date": "2023-01-13", "guest": "Larry Sultan", "title": "Revisiting Larry Sultan's 'Pictures from Home,' a photo memoir of post-WWII life", "question_index": 4, "text": "Your father said to you that he doesn't like what you call introspection. When he sees one of those photos, he says, for the most part, that's not me I recognize in those photos.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I became a real pain. I worked on this for seven years, and I really strained my parents' generosity. In the beginning, I think it was - you know, I would follow them around. In fact, "}
{"id": "1149015284", "date": "2023-01-13", "guest": "Larry Sultan", "title": "Revisiting Larry Sultan's 'Pictures from Home,' a photo memoir of post-WWII life", "question_index": 5, "text": "Do you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think it's, you know, how we know ourselves. We have this repertoire of selves, I think. And I guess Roland Barthes calls it a repertoire of selves. And I see my father - yeah, well, the side "}
{"id": "1149015284", "date": "2023-01-13", "guest": "Larry Sultan", "title": "Revisiting Larry Sultan's 'Pictures from Home,' a photo memoir of post-WWII life", "question_index": 6, "text": "Did you say a lost look?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Maybe that isn't him he recognizes. Maybe that's more me."}
{"id": "1149015284", "date": "2023-01-13", "guest": "Larry Sultan", "title": "Revisiting Larry Sultan's 'Pictures from Home,' a photo memoir of post-WWII life", "question_index": 7, "text": "Let me describe a photo that I think is exactly that, or at least that's how I read it. And it's a photo of your father all dressed up in a dinner jacket, and it looks like he's probably on the way out. But he's sitting on the bed, just kind of looking off in this dinner jacket. And to me, it reads - all dressed up for a kind of letdown.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, a look that has a taste of melancholy to it."}
{"id": "1149015284", "date": "2023-01-13", "guest": "Larry Sultan", "title": "Revisiting Larry Sultan's 'Pictures from Home,' a photo memoir of post-WWII life", "question_index": 8, "text": "I really like that photo a lot.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he..."}
{"id": "1149015284", "date": "2023-01-13", "guest": "Larry Sultan", "title": "Revisiting Larry Sultan's 'Pictures from Home,' a photo memoir of post-WWII life", "question_index": 9, "text": "Oh, really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he hates it."}
{"id": "1149015284", "date": "2023-01-13", "guest": "Larry Sultan", "title": "Revisiting Larry Sultan's 'Pictures from Home,' a photo memoir of post-WWII life", "question_index": 10, "text": "OK. How come?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He absolutely hates it."}
{"id": "1149015284", "date": "2023-01-13", "guest": "Larry Sultan", "title": "Revisiting Larry Sultan's 'Pictures from Home,' a photo memoir of post-WWII life", "question_index": 11, "text": "I want to quote something that you write toward the end here. You say, (reading) behind all the peering, the good pictures, the rows of film and the anxiety of my project is the wish to take photography, literally, to stop time. I want my parents to live forever. I think that's beautiful.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, because he says that - he created the analogy that it was like having - doing a film, and the actors are taking a break, and that's when you photograph them. And we were actually - I asked him t"}
{"id": "1149661462", "date": "2023-01-18", "guest": "Catie Edmondson", "title": "How will the hard-right Republicans in Congress wield their newfound power?", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Now that Kevin McCarthy has assumed his new role as speaker of the House, a position he won after making concessions to the far right of his party, what can we expect? Jim Jordan, a Trump ally who played a role in trying to overturn the election, is now chair of the Judiciary Committee, as well as chair of a new subcommittee to investigate the weaponization of government. That subcommittee is likely to investigate the Biden administration and members of Congress who have been investigating the attempt to overthrow the election and the attack on the Capitol. The January 6 committee subpoenaed Jordan. Jordan refused to comply. Now he's the one with the subpoena power. Republican-led committees will be investigating President Biden and his son Hunter, including Hunter's business practices and the classified documents found in President Biden's home and office. Republicans may block efforts to raise the debt ceiling, which would lead to America defaulting on its debt and throw our economy and parts of the global economy into chaos. And there's George Santos, who lied his way into Congress, fabricating his biography and resume. Who knows how that will play out? Here to talk about these issues and more is Catie Edmondson, who covers Congress for The New York Times. We recorded our interview yesterday morning. Catie Edmondson, welcome to FRESH AIR. What do Republicans most want to do with their new power?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1149661462", "date": "2023-01-18", "guest": "Catie Edmondson", "title": "How will the hard-right Republicans in Congress wield their newfound power?", "question_index": 1, "text": "Is one of the goals of the far right of the Republican Party to impeach President Biden?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me, Terry. I think it really depends on which Republicans you speak to, and that is going to be the dynamic that really drives this fractious House majority. You have, of course, the"}
{"id": "1149661462", "date": "2023-01-18", "guest": "Catie Edmondson", "title": "How will the hard-right Republicans in Congress wield their newfound power?", "question_index": 2, "text": "Now Republicans have subpoena power and they're creating new committees to investigate Democrats. So let's start with the new subcommittee on investigating the weaponization of government. This is a subcommittee of the Judiciary Committee. Judiciary is now led by Jim Jordan, who's a Trump ally and an election denier, and played a role in trying to overturn the election. So what was his role in trying to overturn the election?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It depends on who you speak to, but that is certainly a goal of many of the hard-right lawmakers, particularly those who seem to be picking up influence within the party. I'm thinking specifically of "}
{"id": "1149661462", "date": "2023-01-18", "guest": "Catie Edmondson", "title": "How will the hard-right Republicans in Congress wield their newfound power?", "question_index": 3, "text": "So Jim Jordan, who played a role in trying to overturn the election, now heads the Judiciary Committee and this new subcommittee to investigate the weaponization of government. So he has a lot of power. So what will this new committee on the weaponization of government have the power to do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's interesting because Congressman Jordan went on TV after the election in 2020 and he parroted some of the claims that former President Trump was making at the time, raising questions about w"}
{"id": "1149661462", "date": "2023-01-18", "guest": "Catie Edmondson", "title": "How will the hard-right Republicans in Congress wield their newfound power?", "question_index": 4, "text": "Jim Jordan was one of the people subpoenaed by the January 6 committee and didn't comply. Others include Kevin McCarthy, the new speaker of the House, Scott Perry, the head of the far-right Freedom Caucus. So the subcommittee will have subpoena power, and it's headed by somebody who declined to respond to his subpoena from the January 6 committee. So - I don't know - well, what does that mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the House voted last week to authorize the creation of this special subcommittee to investigate, quote-unquote, \"the weaponization of government.\" And because it's still in early stages, we're stil"}
{"id": "1149661462", "date": "2023-01-18", "guest": "Catie Edmondson", "title": "How will the hard-right Republicans in Congress wield their newfound power?", "question_index": 5, "text": "OK. Let's take a short break here. My guest is Catie Edmondson, who covers Congress for The New York Times. We'll talk more after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Speaker McCarthy was actually asked about this at a news conference in Washington late last week that I attended. He was asked, given the fact that you declined to participate with the January 6"}
{"id": "1149661462", "date": "2023-01-18", "guest": "Catie Edmondson", "title": "How will the hard-right Republicans in Congress wield their newfound power?", "question_index": 6, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Catie Edmondson. She covers Congress for The New York Times. We're talking about the new Republican-controlled House of Representatives led by the new speaker, Kevin McCarthy, who made many concessions to the far right of his party in order to get elected speaker. Let's look at the Oversight and Government Reform Committee, which is headed now by James Comer of Kentucky. First of all, tell us a little bit about James Comer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Speaker McCarthy was actually asked about this at a news conference in Washington late last week that I attended. He was asked, given the fact that you declined to participate with the January 6"}
{"id": "1149661462", "date": "2023-01-18", "guest": "Catie Edmondson", "title": "How will the hard-right Republicans in Congress wield their newfound power?", "question_index": 7, "text": "So he's expected to lead an investigation into President Biden and his son Hunter Biden. What does he plan to investigate?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Congressman Comer has been a sort of loyal soldier of the House Republican Conference for quite some time now. He's from Kentucky. And actually, one of his pet issues for quite a long time was s"}
{"id": "1149661462", "date": "2023-01-18", "guest": "Catie Edmondson", "title": "How will the hard-right Republicans in Congress wield their newfound power?", "question_index": 8, "text": "Is this committee also expected to investigate the classified documents that were found in President Biden's home and office?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. He has said that his investigation is really going to focus on two things. It is going to focus first on the business dealings of Hunter Biden abroad in China and Ukraine. And then, he s"}
{"id": "1149661462", "date": "2023-01-18", "guest": "Catie Edmondson", "title": "How will the hard-right Republicans in Congress wield their newfound power?", "question_index": 9, "text": "He's an example of the disparity in the sense that he totally downplayed the Trump classified documents, but he seems pretty upset by the Biden classified documents.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it is. Congressman Comer said over the weekend that he plans to open an investigation into President Biden's handling of the classified documents. That investigation obviously is going to open up"}
{"id": "1149661462", "date": "2023-01-18", "guest": "Catie Edmondson", "title": "How will the hard-right Republicans in Congress wield their newfound power?", "question_index": 10, "text": "There's a new House rules package with compromises and concessions that McCarthy made to get elected speaker. Of all those changes, which do you think are the most consequential?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. And I think that is going to be a general theme that we see here in the next two years, is that you are going to have Republican members of Congress who looked the other way when former "}
{"id": "1149661462", "date": "2023-01-18", "guest": "Catie Edmondson", "title": "How will the hard-right Republicans in Congress wield their newfound power?", "question_index": 11, "text": "Yeah, 'cause this is money that the United States has already - already owes. And so if it defaults on its debt, then the full faith and credit of the U.S. is kind of destroyed. And with that comes, like, chaos.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there are a few big ones. And I should also say that the list of concessions that McCarthy made to the hard-right rebels is not fully enumerated in the rules package. Several of those concession"}
{"id": "1149661462", "date": "2023-01-18", "guest": "Catie Edmondson", "title": "How will the hard-right Republicans in Congress wield their newfound power?", "question_index": 12, "text": "Like, the general understanding is that you don't negotiate about the debt ceiling. Like, you pay your debts.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1149661462", "date": "2023-01-18", "guest": "Catie Edmondson", "title": "How will the hard-right Republicans in Congress wield their newfound power?", "question_index": 13, "text": "I think it's fair to say that no legislation is going to get passed for the next two years. Because if the Republican-led House passes a bill, the Senate won't pass it 'cause that's controlled by Democrats. And Biden probably wouldn't sign it. If Democrats bring legislation to the floor, if it gets to the floor, that'll be voted down by the Republican House majority. But what Republicans do have the power to do is, you know, to obstruct, to prevent things from going to the floor, and also to conduct the investigations that we've been talking about.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. And I mean, going back to 2011, when there was, again, this hard-right flank of Republicans that was ascendant in the House majority at the time, when President Obama was president, that"}
{"id": "1149661462", "date": "2023-01-18", "guest": "Catie Edmondson", "title": "How will the hard-right Republicans in Congress wield their newfound power?", "question_index": 14, "text": "The Republican majority in the House is a very narrow one. So they're kind of in a bind now about George Santos, the congressman from New York who was caught in lie after lie after lie on his resume. He basically just, like, created a whole new biography even with different names, a false resume. And it keeps being new things coming forward including that he has ties to a businessman who's a cousin of a Russian oligarch, and he got money from this cousin. What - explain the bind that the Republican Party is in about dealing with Santos.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. You know, I am a pessimist by nature. And so I generally am inclined to agree with you that we are going to see very little in the way of actual legislating. I think maybe, maybe, there "}
{"id": "1149661462", "date": "2023-01-18", "guest": "Catie Edmondson", "title": "How will the hard-right Republicans in Congress wield their newfound power?", "question_index": 15, "text": "My guest is Catie Edmondson. She covers Congress for The New York Times. We recorded our interview yesterday morning. Later in the day, it was reported that the House Republican Steering Committee recommended that George Santos be seated on the House Small Business Committee and the Science, Space and Technology Committee. The entire House Republican Conference still has to ratify the appointments. We'll hear more from Catie Edmondson after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This became a glaring problem immediately for House Republicans. And I think it also illustrated very clearly just how in dire need of every single vote Kevin McCarthy was in order to win the speaker'"}
{"id": "1149661462", "date": "2023-01-18", "guest": "Catie Edmondson", "title": "How will the hard-right Republicans in Congress wield their newfound power?", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Catie Edmondson. She covers Congress for The New York Times. We're talking about the new Republican-controlled House of Representatives led by the new speaker, Kevin McCarthy, who made many concessions with the far-right members of his party in order to get elected speaker. You described Matt Gaetz, representative from Florida, as Kevin McCarthy's chief antagonist. Now, Gaetz voted against McCarthy becoming speaker until the very end, when he only voted present. So he never voted for McCarthy. But with that vote of present, he also didn't stand in the way of McCarthy getting elected. So what are their conflicts likely to be about now that McCarthy is speaker?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This became a glaring problem immediately for House Republicans. And I think it also illustrated very clearly just how in dire need of every single vote Kevin McCarthy was in order to win the speaker'"}
{"id": "1149661462", "date": "2023-01-18", "guest": "Catie Edmondson", "title": "How will the hard-right Republicans in Congress wield their newfound power?", "question_index": 17, "text": "So with Matt Gaetz, since he now seems to be accepting and supporting McCarthy as speaker, considering a lot of politics is transactional in nature, what do you think Gaetz is getting in return for that support?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's interesting because we had about two weeks of Matt Gaetz just absolutely antagonizing now Speaker McCarthy. Matt Gaetz has had a long running sort of feud with Speaker McCarthy. He views Sp"}
{"id": "1149661462", "date": "2023-01-18", "guest": "Catie Edmondson", "title": "How will the hard-right Republicans in Congress wield their newfound power?", "question_index": 18, "text": "Let's talk about the no confidence vote some more. This is that any one member of the Republican caucus in the House can call a vote of no confidence and then vote out McCarthy as speaker of the House. I'd like to hear more about the process. Like, if somebody does that vote of no confidence, putting this whole process into place, what happens next?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a great question. And it's one that we still don't fully know the answer to. One of the things that Congressman Gaetz has publicly said is that in order to get his sort of caucus of defectors to "}
{"id": "1149661462", "date": "2023-01-18", "guest": "Catie Edmondson", "title": "How will the hard-right Republicans in Congress wield their newfound power?", "question_index": 19, "text": "So the assumption is that now McCarthy is beholden to the far right of his party because he made this concession that any one member of the Republican caucus can step forward with a vote of no confidence. But it also opens the door to, you know, more or slightly more moderate Republicans to come forward and do the same thing. What are the odds of that happening?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, even the threat of this vote being called was enough to oust John Boehner when he was speaker. Mark Meadows at the time had filed paperwork, essentially, that would move this vote along. And tha"}
{"id": "1149661462", "date": "2023-01-18", "guest": "Catie Edmondson", "title": "How will the hard-right Republicans in Congress wield their newfound power?", "question_index": 20, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Catie Edmondson, who covers Congress for The New York Times. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's right. And I think it creates a really interesting dynamic because, of course, having this razor-thin majority in the House - four or five seats, give or take - it really emboldens everyo"}
{"id": "1149661462", "date": "2023-01-18", "guest": "Catie Edmondson", "title": "How will the hard-right Republicans in Congress wield their newfound power?", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Catie Edmondson. She covers Congress for The New York Times. We're talking about the new Republican-controlled House of Representatives led by the new speaker, Kevin McCarthy, who made many concessions with the far-right members of his party in order to get elected speaker. It seems like one of the Republicans to watch in the House now is Chip Roy of Texas. Who is he, and why is he likely to be important in this term?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's right. And I think it creates a really interesting dynamic because, of course, having this razor-thin majority in the House - four or five seats, give or take - it really emboldens everyo"}
{"id": "1149661462", "date": "2023-01-18", "guest": "Catie Edmondson", "title": "How will the hard-right Republicans in Congress wield their newfound power?", "question_index": 22, "text": "And he wants to take power away from the leadership and give more individual congressmen power. What's his rationale for doing that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think that's absolutely right. Chip Roy is a - I believe - sophomore, now, congressman from Texas. He actually was Ted Cruz's former chief of staff over in the Senate. And Congressman Roy real"}
{"id": "1149661462", "date": "2023-01-18", "guest": "Catie Edmondson", "title": "How will the hard-right Republicans in Congress wield their newfound power?", "question_index": 23, "text": "Let's talk about Marjorie Taylor Greene. She is a Trump supporter. She voted for McCarthy. She's been a QAnon supporter, although she's stepped back from that, she says. She made a deal with McCarthy to put her back on committees. She was taken off committees by Democrats because of her antisemitic and racist statements, including on social media. For example, she said in 2018 on social media that the California fires were a result of space lasers controlled by a conspiracy, a cabal that included the Rothschild banking firm. Of course, when you say conspiracy and Rothschild, that is a very antisemitic trope, because the Rothschilds were a Jewish banking family and, you know, for decades or centuries, they've been, you know, the - at the center of antisemitic conspiracy theories. So given all that, like, where is she now in terms of the power structure of the Republican Party, and what kind of committees is she likely to be on? Because McCarthy said as part of the deal that he'd put her on committees.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he is someone who refers to D.C. and Congress as the swamp. He has a belief fundamentally that every single rank-and-file member of Congress, whether you're a Republican or a Democrat, should be"}
{"id": "1149661462", "date": "2023-01-18", "guest": "Catie Edmondson", "title": "How will the hard-right Republicans in Congress wield their newfound power?", "question_index": 24, "text": "Are there Republican plans to punish Democrats, especially Democrats who participated actively in the impeachment of Trump or in the January 6 committee, to - you know, to punish them in any way? I mean, like, for example, Adam Schiff is taken off the intelligence committee, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Well, I also want to go back to the reason why Congresswoman Greene was kicked off her committees. It was because so many of these posts trafficked in anti-Muslim, antisemitic conspiracy theori"}
{"id": "1149661462", "date": "2023-01-18", "guest": "Catie Edmondson", "title": "How will the hard-right Republicans in Congress wield their newfound power?", "question_index": 25, "text": "Catie Edmondson covers Congress for The New York Times. We recorded our interview yesterday morning. Later in the day, it was reported that the House Republican Steering Committee recommended that Marjorie Taylor Greene be appointed to the House Homeland Security Committee and the House Committee on Oversight and Accountability. The entire House Republican Conference is expected to ratify the appointments. We'll hear more from Catie Edmondson after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No one has been taken off of their committees yet. They are still in the process of naming everyone to their new committees. But Speaker McCarthy has promised - and he's promised for at least a year n"}
{"id": "1149661462", "date": "2023-01-18", "guest": "Catie Edmondson", "title": "How will the hard-right Republicans in Congress wield their newfound power?", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Catie Edmondson. She covers Congress for The New York Times. We're talking about the new Republican-controlled House of Representatives led by the new speaker, Kevin McCarthy, who made many concessions with the far-right members of his party in order to get elected speaker. Let's talk about Kevin McCarthy. You - oh, you wrote in such detail", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No one has been taken off of their committees yet. They are still in the process of naming everyone to their new committees. But Speaker McCarthy has promised - and he's promised for at least a year n"}
{"id": "1149661462", "date": "2023-01-18", "guest": "Catie Edmondson", "title": "How will the hard-right Republicans in Congress wield their newfound power?", "question_index": 27, "text": "throughout that whole process of him getting elected speaker. So let's talk about who he is and where he's from. Literally, he's from Bakersfield, one of the remaining conservative areas in California. And he was in the state House before getting elected to Congress. What were his politics in the state House?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No one has been taken off of their committees yet. They are still in the process of naming everyone to their new committees. But Speaker McCarthy has promised - and he's promised for at least a year n"}
{"id": "1149661462", "date": "2023-01-18", "guest": "Catie Edmondson", "title": "How will the hard-right Republicans in Congress wield their newfound power?", "question_index": 28, "text": "When he did come to Congress, he was one of the so-called young guns, along with Paul Ryan and Eric Cantor. What did they stand for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. Well, he was minority leader in the state House. He was the leader of the Republicans there. And, of course, being a Republican in California, he was always in the minority. And so his r"}
{"id": "1149661462", "date": "2023-01-18", "guest": "Catie Edmondson", "title": "How will the hard-right Republicans in Congress wield their newfound power?", "question_index": 29, "text": "But then the more far-right members who McCarthy helped bring into Congress ended up turning against him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's right. The young guns created this blueprint, really, to try to recruit fresh new faces to run, to take back the House majority. And the whole idea was that they were going to try to capi"}
{"id": "1149661462", "date": "2023-01-18", "guest": "Catie Edmondson", "title": "How will the hard-right Republicans in Congress wield their newfound power?", "question_index": 30, "text": "What are you keeping your eye on? Is there any one thing that you're most interested in seeing? What is going to happen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's right. And I think this goes back to a theme that we previously talked about, was the idea that some of these true believers, some of these far-right ideologues, have viewed McCarthy as s"}
{"id": "1149661462", "date": "2023-01-18", "guest": "Catie Edmondson", "title": "How will the hard-right Republicans in Congress wield their newfound power?", "question_index": 31, "text": "Catie Edmondson, thank you so much for talking with us. And I look forward to reading more of your reporting and seeing what's going on.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm really interested in watching the dynamic play out between some of these hard-right lawmakers and McCarthy, to see how long this detente lasts. And I think, overall, another dynamic that's going t"}
{"id": "1149661462", "date": "2023-01-18", "guest": "Catie Edmondson", "title": "How will the hard-right Republicans in Congress wield their newfound power?", "question_index": 32, "text": "Catie Edmondson covers Congress for The New York Times. We recorded our interview yesterday morning. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, as the mishandling of classified documents makes headlines, we'll talk with Matthew Connelly. In a new book, he argues the government today designates far too many records as classified, making it hard to ever declassify them. The growing level of government secrecy, he says, is bad for public accountability. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me."}
{"id": "1149661462", "date": "2023-01-18", "guest": "Catie Edmondson", "title": "How will the hard-right Republicans in Congress wield their newfound power?", "question_index": 33, "text": "Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley, Susan Nyakundi and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me."}
{"id": "1152012067", "date": "2023-01-27", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Celebrating the centennial of Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 0, "text": "Part of your genius has been finding musicians who brought together Black music and country music, creating rock 'n' roll and rockabilly. I'm wondering how you were exposed to Black music as a white man growing up in the segregated South.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You women have heard of jalopies. You've heard the noise they make. But let me reintroduce my new Rocket '88. Yes, it's straight, just won't wait. Everybody likes my Rocket '88. Baby, we'll "}
{"id": "1152012067", "date": "2023-01-27", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Celebrating the centennial of Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 1, "text": "You started your producing career recording blues musicians and leasing the records to companies like RPM, Modern and Chess Records. You recorded Howlin' Wolf, Walter Horton, Bobby Bland, Little Junior Parker, B.B. King - the very start of their careers. I'm wondering what it was like for you as a white man in the South in the late '40s and early '50s to be recording Black musicians. Was it ever difficult to have rapport? I'm wondering if they saw you as the man because you were recording them and because you were white.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My interest in Black music started at a very early age. I worked with Black people in the fields. My daddy was a farmer, and he grew cotton, and, of course, cotton had to be picked and hoed. And my fa"}
{"id": "1152012067", "date": "2023-01-27", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Celebrating the centennial of Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 2, "text": "What was your approach to making musicians comfortable so that they would be themselves in the studio and not try to be somebody else or not try to do something just to please the producer? How would you get them to be themselves?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a type of thing that - I think most Black people had some doubt as to what, quote-unquote, \"we were up to\" early on because, in many instances, Black people were taken advantage of, and maybe w"}
{"id": "1152012067", "date": "2023-01-27", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Celebrating the centennial of Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 3, "text": "One of the great blues musicians that you discovered and first recorded was Howlin' Wolf, and I want to play your - the recording that you produced of him doing \"Moanin' At Midnight\" in 1951. And this was something that you did for Chess Records. I think it made it to No. 10 on the R&B charts. Tell us about your first encounter with Howlin' Wolf.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It varied with each one, of course, because the minute you had tried to be noncondescending toward them, they would pick it up immediately. It would vary with the individual. Believe me. Black people "}
{"id": "1152012067", "date": "2023-01-27", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Celebrating the centennial of Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 4, "text": "Well, let me play this 1951 Howlin' Wolf record that you produced, \"Moanin'...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Wolf, as I've said so many times, is one of my favorite artists. He was so individual in the things that he did. He had, No. 1, a voice that was so distinctive that there is - nobody could mistake"}
{"id": "1152012067", "date": "2023-01-27", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Celebrating the centennial of Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 5, "text": "...At Midnight.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm anxious..."}
{"id": "1152012067", "date": "2023-01-27", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Celebrating the centennial of Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 6, "text": "That's Howlin' Wolf, a recording produced in 1951 by my guest, Sam Phillips. Sam Phillips, you started Sun Records, your studio in Memphis, after recording for independent companies - other people's independent companies, like Chess Records - why did you want to start your own studio? Did you have a vision of what you wanted to do in your own studio?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Well, somebody calling me, calling me on my telephone. Well, somebody calling over my telephone. Well, keep on calling. Tell them I'm not at home."}
{"id": "1152012067", "date": "2023-01-27", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Celebrating the centennial of Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 7, "text": "You started Sun Records after you had a nervous breakdown and even got electroshock therapy. I'm wondering if the two were related. If after the nervous breakdown, you decided you had to be in business for yourself and do your own thing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I actually never wanted to actually form a label as such, like Sun Records. I wanted to be strictly on the creative end of it because I believed so strongly in what I believed in. And I wanted to prov"}
{"id": "1152012067", "date": "2023-01-27", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Celebrating the centennial of Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 8, "text": "When Elvis first auditioned for you, I know that he sang in styles of his favorite performers from, you know, white and Black, from Lonnie Johnson to Dean Martin. What did you do to try to get a sense from Elvis of who Elvis really was, of what his kind of own voice was?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. And we're listening to the conversation Terry recorded in 1997 with record producer Sam Phillips, who discovered Elvis and many other accomplished artists. This month marks the cent"}
{"id": "1152012067", "date": "2023-01-27", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Celebrating the centennial of Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 9, "text": "Do you have a favorite of the Elvis \"Sun Sessions\" that people play now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Elvis being as young as he was, and, of course, I'm - gosh, I'm 12 years and three days older than Elvis. When he was 19, I guess I was 31 or whatever. But I can tell you, the only time that we "}
{"id": "1152012067", "date": "2023-01-27", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Celebrating the centennial of Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 10, "text": "Good.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I really do."}
{"id": "1152012067", "date": "2023-01-27", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Celebrating the centennial of Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 11, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I - you know, I really do. And it - I've kidded about it a lot because I wrote the song. I really didn't. It was the song \"Mystery Train\" that Little Junior Parker really basically wrote it. And w"}
{"id": "1152012067", "date": "2023-01-27", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Celebrating the centennial of Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 12, "text": "Why don't we hear it? Since you produced Junior Parker's version of \"Mystery Train,\" too, why don't we hear both the Junior Parker and the Elvis version back to back?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But, I mean, I really am because, I mean, I just liked what we did. Everything from \"You're A Heartbreaker\" - now, that is absolutely the most nothing record in the world except that it is something."}
{"id": "1152012067", "date": "2023-01-27", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Celebrating the centennial of Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We're in for a treat."}
{"id": "1152012067", "date": "2023-01-27", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Celebrating the centennial of Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 14, "text": "That's Junior Parker and Elvis Presley, both of their versions of \"Mystery Train,\" both versions produced by my guest, Sam Phillips, the founder of Sun Records. You know, I have to ask you this. People are always saying that you used to say - before you discovered Elvis - that you used to say, if I could find a white man who had the Negro sound and the Negro feel, or if I could find a white man who could sing like a Black man, I could make a million dollars - or a billion dollars. Did you really say that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Train, train, coming round, round the bend. Train, train, coming round the bend. Well, it took my baby, but it never will again. No, not again. Train, train..."}
{"id": "1152012067", "date": "2023-01-27", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Celebrating the centennial of Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 15, "text": "And if so, what did you mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In..."}
{"id": "1152012067", "date": "2023-01-27", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Celebrating the centennial of Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 16, "text": "A lot of listeners have spent a lot of time over the years wondering how would music history have been different, how would Elvis have been different, if you never sold his contract to RCA? I wonder if you lose a lot of sleep thinking about that, if you spend a lot of time thinking about that yourself.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I am Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. Let's get back to Terry's 1997 interview with record producer Sam Phillips, who discovered Elvis and produced his early records and founded the"}
{"id": "1152012067", "date": "2023-01-27", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Celebrating the centennial of Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 17, "text": "When artists like Elvis Presley and Jerry Lee Lewis were getting played on the radio - and it was just scandalous to a lot of people, you know, the kind of - the power and the sexuality of the music terrified a lot of adults, PTAs, church groups. What did you make of all of the fuss about early rock 'n' roll, a lot of which you were responsible for? I mean, did you think it was funny? Did you think it was scary? What did it mean to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have not lost one wink of sleep about it. I did give Elvis advice that he really should produce his records when he left Sun because Elvis had an excellent ear. Corporate vice presidents of big majo"}
{"id": "1152012067", "date": "2023-01-27", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Celebrating the centennial of Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 18, "text": "Were you attacked personally in any way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I really did not think it was funny. I really seriously considered the fact that I knew that this was going to happen. People truly believed - a lot of people - you can call them hypocrites or wha"}
{"id": "1152012067", "date": "2023-01-27", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Celebrating the centennial of Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 19, "text": "You gave up recording in about 1963. You gave it producing records. Why did you stop?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not personally, no. I was - I mean, physically. But personally, oh, yeah. My name was called quite frequently across the country and especially in churches. And I'm a good old Southern Baptist and - w"}
{"id": "1152012067", "date": "2023-01-27", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Celebrating the centennial of Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 20, "text": "You must have - or I would imagine that you must have really missed recording people when you stopped and missed discovering people.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that the reason being is that I've always believed in younger people coming along and taking over. It became very difficult for independent labels to make it because at that time, the major la"}
{"id": "1152012067", "date": "2023-01-27", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Celebrating the centennial of Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'll always miss it. I sure will. Music is not an option, really, with people. We take it for granted - people that are in it professionally and people that just love it to listen to and people that c"}
{"id": "1152014206", "date": "2023-01-27", "guest": "Graham Nash", "title": "Remembering David Crosby, the outspoken co-founder of Crosby, Stills & Nash", "question_index": 0, "text": "I'd really love to hear the story about how the two of you first met. Is there such a story?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. David Crosby, co-founder of the folk rock group Crosby, Stills & Nash and before that, a member of the Byrds, died last week at the age of 81. He was known for his great harmoni"}
{"id": "1152014206", "date": "2023-01-27", "guest": "Graham Nash", "title": "Remembering David Crosby, the outspoken co-founder of Crosby, Stills & Nash", "question_index": 1, "text": "Can you tell it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, there is. Yeah."}
{"id": "1152014206", "date": "2023-01-27", "guest": "Graham Nash", "title": "Remembering David Crosby, the outspoken co-founder of Crosby, Stills & Nash", "question_index": 2, "text": "Was that intentional?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Cass, the rat, didn't tell me who he was. She just..."}
{"id": "1152014206", "date": "2023-01-27", "guest": "Graham Nash", "title": "Remembering David Crosby, the outspoken co-founder of Crosby, Stills & Nash", "question_index": 3, "text": "So how did you decide to actually perform together, start singing together?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that's how David and I met."}
{"id": "1152014206", "date": "2023-01-27", "guest": "Graham Nash", "title": "Remembering David Crosby, the outspoken co-founder of Crosby, Stills & Nash", "question_index": 4, "text": "Were there things you wanted to each do that you couldn't do with the bands that you were with, that, Graham Nash, you couldn't do with the Hollies...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Come over, and stay with me. So he came over to stay with me at my - I had a muse apartment in London. And then, we started to talk music, you know? And he left me with a tape of a very early demo of "}
{"id": "1152014206", "date": "2023-01-27", "guest": "Graham Nash", "title": "Remembering David Crosby, the outspoken co-founder of Crosby, Stills & Nash", "question_index": 5, "text": "...That, David Crosby, you couldn't do with the Byrds?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Obviously."}
{"id": "1152014206", "date": "2023-01-27", "guest": "Graham Nash", "title": "Remembering David Crosby, the outspoken co-founder of Crosby, Stills & Nash", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm trying to be kind, too. They make great records, but..."}
{"id": "1152014206", "date": "2023-01-27", "guest": "Graham Nash", "title": "Remembering David Crosby, the outspoken co-founder of Crosby, Stills & Nash", "question_index": 7, "text": "Right. Yes, right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...A Dylan song - it's not the..."}
{"id": "1152014206", "date": "2023-01-27", "guest": "Graham Nash", "title": "Remembering David Crosby, the outspoken co-founder of Crosby, Stills & Nash", "question_index": 8, "text": "Now, I want to get back, Graham Nash, to your work with the Hollies. Now, you were writing, I mean, what I think was great songs, like \"Stop Stop Stop\" and \"Carrie Anne.\" I mean, did you feel like that was a kind of pop that you didn't want to do anymore?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Thing for them to be doing. Not at all. Not even close. Not in the ballpark. And they had great songs, his songs. So I know that he was, you know, frustrated, too. And then my relationship with the"}
{"id": "1152014206", "date": "2023-01-27", "guest": "Graham Nash", "title": "Remembering David Crosby, the outspoken co-founder of Crosby, Stills & Nash", "question_index": 9, "text": "Were there differences in how you approached the music business - David Crosby, coming from America, Graham Nash, coming from England? I mean, there's some differences.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It became so after a while. You know, we were trained to write, you know - I don't think we ever wrote anything over two minutes and 50 seconds long, you know? It was - there was a Tin Pan Alley kind "}
{"id": "1152014206", "date": "2023-01-27", "guest": "Graham Nash", "title": "Remembering David Crosby, the outspoken co-founder of Crosby, Stills & Nash", "question_index": 10, "text": "So did that become a habit of yours afterwards?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...David came to one of the Hollies' press conferences in London. And the Hollies - because we were, you know, controlled by the forces that made pop groups, and we wanted to be famous, and all that s"}
{"id": "1154141513", "date": "2023-02-03", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Julie Otsuka, welcome to FRESH AIR. I love your writing, so I'm very glad you're here. I want to start with a reading from the first page of \"The Swimmers,\" your new novel, because I want our listeners to hear your style of writing and how the accumulation of detail just kind of keeps building through the book. So would you read the opening for us?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross. Novelist Julie Otsuka has just been awarded the Carnegie Medal for Excellence for her book \"The Swimmers.\" It's about a group of people who "}
{"id": "1154141513", "date": "2023-02-03", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 1, "text": "So as we heard in the reading, one of the swimmers, Alice, is in the early stages of dementia. And as the novel progresses, she loses more and more of her memory until she's moved to a facility. Your mother died of dementia-related causes. Was it frontotemporal dementia like in the book?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure, I'd be happy to. (Reading) The pool is located deep underground in a large, cavernous chamber many feet beneath the streets of our town. Some of us come here because we are injured and need to h"}
{"id": "1154141513", "date": "2023-02-03", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 2, "text": "Yeah. In the book, you describe it as being very rare. What is it? How does it compare to Alzheimer's, just so we understand what's going on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was. And it was Pick's disease, which is a form of frontotemporal dementia."}
{"id": "1154141513", "date": "2023-02-03", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Could you tell that it was happening? Because that's one of the questions in the book. You know, like, for example, like, a crack appears in the pool that the swimmers go to. And the people wonder, you know, many of us remain anxious because the truth is we don't know what it is or what it means or if it has any meaning at all. Maybe the crack is just a crack, nothing more, nothing less. Maybe it's a rupture, a chasm. How deep is it? Who's to blame for it? Can we reverse it? And most importantly, why us? It's no coincidence, I'm sure, that those questions are the questions we ask when symptoms begin to appear. Like, does this have any meaning? Is it serious? Is it nothing? Am I exaggerating? If it's a problem, like, what or who is to blame for it? And, you know, and why me? Why us? Why is this happening to us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, for one thing, the onset can be much, much earlier. So I think for my mother, she might have even manifested symptoms in her 50s, definitely in her 60s, although I think it was hard for us to re"}
{"id": "1154141513", "date": "2023-02-03", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 4, "text": "What would have been different had you gotten an earlier diagnosis? It's not like it's a reversable...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's sometimes hardest for the people closest to the person who's suffering from dementia to see what is happening. I think there's a lot of denial going on, probably in the early years. But I"}
{"id": "1154141513", "date": "2023-02-03", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 5, "text": "That's a big difference.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nothing, probably. Nothing. Although I guess the one thing that could have been different is that we might have had a little bit more compassion for her early on."}
{"id": "1154141513", "date": "2023-02-03", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 6, "text": "You know, in the novel, when so many memories are starting to disappear, one of the things the mother remembers is being sent to a Japanese American incarceration camp when she was young, when she was a child. Did your mother hang on to that memory when others were disappearing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a huge difference. It's difficult to live with somebody whose personality is changing and is - you know, to a certain point, they're not the person that you remember. But they can't help it. But "}
{"id": "1154141513", "date": "2023-02-03", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Before being forced into the camp?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She did. Those memories for her were very strong. They they remained with her till - you know, till close to the end of her life. You know, I remember one day she just began to tell a story about her "}
{"id": "1154141513", "date": "2023-02-03", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 8, "text": "What was the story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The day before they had to leave, yeah. And she just began to tell that story over and over and over again. And I hadn't heard that story before. I mean, perhaps my father had. I'm not sure."}
{"id": "1154141513", "date": "2023-02-03", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Did the teacher explain why she was going away?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That her teacher asked her to stand up and then told everyone in the class that Haruko - was my mother's Japanese name - would be leaving the next day, and would they please tell her goodbye? So the e"}
{"id": "1154141513", "date": "2023-02-03", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 10, "text": "In the novel, you write, she remembers to warn her daughter at the end of every phone call that the FBI will check up on you soon.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I don't know. It's a really good question. I wish that I'd asked my mother that when she was still lucid. I don't know. I mean, I often wonder, what did that teacher say to her students? Do "}
{"id": "1154141513", "date": "2023-02-03", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 11, "text": "How does the FBI figure into your family's story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1154141513", "date": "2023-02-03", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Was he considered a serious enemy alien because he worked for a Japanese company?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My grandfather was arrested by the FBI on December 8, 1941, so the day after Pearl Harbor was bombed. He went to work. He worked for a Japanese-owned mercantile company. And he never came home. So he "}
{"id": "1154141513", "date": "2023-02-03", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 13, "text": "Did you get to meet him or your grandmother?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was a leader in the Japanese American community, a business leader. So he was fairly prominent. So those were the men who were rounded up first, you know, just as a way, really, of - I mean, all th"}
{"id": "1154141513", "date": "2023-02-03", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Was your grandfather able to work after being called a traitor?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, he died when I was 8. And my grandmother - she lived to be almost 101, so I knew her for many, many years. And my memories of him are as a very, very gentle man. He never talked about what h"}
{"id": "1154141513", "date": "2023-02-03", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Is traitor the right word? And an enemy alien, I think, is what you said.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "1154141513", "date": "2023-02-03", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 16, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is novelist Julie Otsuka. Her new novel is called \"The Swimmers.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. No. They're synonymous, I think, or at least in the eye of the government. Well, he was not - the reason that he was not able to work after the war was not necessarily because of what he'd been "}
{"id": "1154141513", "date": "2023-02-03", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Julie Otsuka, author of the novels \"The Buddha In The Attic,\" \"When The Emperor Was Divine\" and the new novel \"The Swimmers.\" So there wasn't much you were able to learn from your grandparents. What about your mother? How old was she when she was incarcerated? And what stories did she tell?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. No. They're synonymous, I think, or at least in the eye of the government. Well, he was not - the reason that he was not able to work after the war was not necessarily because of what he'd been "}
{"id": "1154141513", "date": "2023-02-03", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 18, "text": "So why did your grandmother want to burn her husband's letters?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, I want to say one thing I did learn from my grandfather but years later, after he died - was that we found this cache of letters that he'd written to his wife and children during the first y"}
{"id": "1154141513", "date": "2023-02-03", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 19, "text": "What do these artifacts mean to you - the letters, the bridal veil?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that she might have felt that they were dangerous to have around. She might have felt shame that he had been labeled a spy, basically a dangerous enemy alien. Or she could have treasured them "}
{"id": "1154141513", "date": "2023-02-03", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 20, "text": "When your family came back after the war was over, did they still have their home?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, the letters, to me, they were like gold. It was like opening a window into my grandfather's past and just seeing a side of him that I'd never seen before. And I used them when I began to write"}
{"id": "1154141513", "date": "2023-02-03", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 21, "text": "People had broken in and stolen things?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They did. They were very fortunate because most Japanese could not own property by law. So - but my grandfather - I think he bought his home in his children's name, and they were American born and, th"}
{"id": "1154141513", "date": "2023-02-03", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 22, "text": "What do you know about how your grandparents first came to the U.S.?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "who had promised to rent out the house for them while they were away, but he was a crook, and so they never saw any of the rent money. Many people lived there, obviously, while they were gone. So the "}
{"id": "1154141513", "date": "2023-02-03", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 23, "text": "And then, of course, like we said, you know, she spends - what? - three years in a Japanese American incarceration camp. But she still appreciated America after that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my grandmother - her father was a Methodist minister in Japan. So he came to America in, I think, 1927 for the World Sunday School Conference. And my grandmother was one of, I think, six daughte"}
{"id": "1154141513", "date": "2023-02-03", "guest": "Julie Otsuka", "title": "Novelist Julie Otsuka draws on her own family history in 'The Swimmers'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Julie Otsuka, thank you so much. It's been a pleasure talking with you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She did, much to, you know, our surprise. She - you know, she didn't sound bitter. I mean, she was just tough. You know, life was - I mean, life - I mean, she was born in 1900, right? So, you know, li"}
{"id": "1154144540", "date": "2023-02-03", "guest": "Victor Navasky", "title": "Remembering Victor Navasky, longtime editor and publisher of 'The Nation'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Well, what was it in your personal history that made you that interested in not only the climate of McCarthyism, but what motivated the people who did testify before HUAC to name names?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University, in for Terry Gross. Victor Navasky, the longtime editor and eventual publisher of the liberal magazine The "}
{"id": "1154144540", "date": "2023-02-03", "guest": "Victor Navasky", "title": "Remembering Victor Navasky, longtime editor and publisher of 'The Nation'", "question_index": 1, "text": "I should think that most of the people who did name names did it mostly out of fear of, like, losing their job, not being able to support their family. Were those mostly the reasons?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't know that it's a matter of personal history other than that I did have friends whose parents had been victims of the Hollywood blacklist. And I did - actually, now that you mention it, I"}
{"id": "1154144540", "date": "2023-02-03", "guest": "Victor Navasky", "title": "Remembering Victor Navasky, longtime editor and publisher of 'The Nation'", "question_index": 2, "text": "What does it mean?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1982 interview with Victor Navasky, editor and eventual publisher of the liberal magazine The Nation. He died last week at age 90. He was also the author o"}
{"id": "1154144540", "date": "2023-02-03", "guest": "Victor Navasky", "title": "Remembering Victor Navasky, longtime editor and publisher of 'The Nation'", "question_index": 3, "text": "I guess life is a lot more complicated than it's - you'd like to think some time when you just try to neatly sort things out and come up with theories to explain things that happened.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'll tell you a way that it came out years later. Dalton Trumbo made a speech when he received the Laurel Award, which is the highest award that writers in Hollywood can bestow on their peers. A"}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 0, "text": "So when he said, so what do you think, what did you really think?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, let's see. I had met the advertising people who concocted the idea, and my partner, Ben Tucker, in fact, wanted us to write a little advertising music. He's a bass player - Ben Tucker. So one da"}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Did you get anything from those books...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "this could be, you know, a limited idea. But when he added, don't write down to children, my - the hackles on my neck arose, and I got quite intrigued. And so I agreed to tackle it, and I spent about "}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 2, "text": "...That you used in the song? What did you get?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did indeed."}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Why don't we pause here and listen to your version, the original version, of \"Three Is A Magic Number\"? Now, did you sing on this one?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that it was one of the magic numbers, and that it was, you know, embodied in certain things like the trinity, the old sayings, the heart and the brain and the body, faith, hope and charity - tri"}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 4, "text": "OK. Why don't we hear it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Why don't we hear the Blind Melon version of \"Three Is A Magic Number\" that's included on the new CD \"Schoolhouse Rock! Rocks\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Three is a magic number. Yes, it is - it's a magic number. Somewhere in the ancient mystic trinity, you get three as a magic number. The past and the present and the future, faith and hope a"}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 6, "text": "You know, when the advertising executives asked you to set the multiplication tables to music, had they already known they could broadcast it on ABC TV?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Three, oh, it's the magic number. Yeah, it is. It's the magic number. Somewhere in that ancient mystic trinity, you get three. It's the magic number. In the past and the present and the futu"}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 7, "text": "So how'd it get on TV?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. They were thinking of a phonograph recording and a book. The idea of television wasn't remotely in their heads."}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Now what I'd like to do is play one of my favorites", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1996 interview with Bob Dorough, who was a musical director for \"Schoolhouse Rock!\" The music videos that taught kids about grammar, math and history turne"}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 9, "text": "and it's \"My Hero, Zero.\" So why don't we play your version and then play the new version on the new CD \"Schoolhouse Rock! Rocks\"? And the new version is performed by the Lemonheads. And, well, why don't we play them both? Here we go.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1996 interview with Bob Dorough, who was a musical director for \"Schoolhouse Rock!\" The music videos that taught kids about grammar, math and history turne"}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 10, "text": "And Bob Dorough sings the first version. And, of course, he wrote the song as well.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, OK."}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Well, Bob Dorough, what do you think of the Lemonheads' version of your song \"My Hero, Zero\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Their neighbor's toes. (Singing) Yeah, yeah, and nobody really knows how wonderful you are. Why, you could never reach a star without you zero, my hero. Zero, how wonderful you are."}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Why don't I play \"Conjunction Junction\"? Tell me about writing this song. Do you remember?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it's really quite nice. And, you know, of course, I thought it went the way I went. I like my version better because I guess it goes with having written the song. Also that's my daughter"}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I must say that my pal George Newell - he's a musician as well as an art advertising director. He's one of the executives. George Newell gave me the title. We were starting \"Grammar Rock,\" and M"}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 14, "text": "So do you think most of the people who grew up listening to your songs, do you think that they have any idea that these weren't written and performed by people in advertising agencies or theme houses, that they were written by you, an interesting and eccentric jazz performer, and that the other song, some of the other songs on here, are sung by interesting and eccentric jazz performers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Hooking up phrases..."}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Yeah, well, you brought in Dave Frishberg, the singer and songwriter and pianist, trumpeter and singer Jack Sheldon, singer Blossom Dearie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- a little bit of a underground movement there."}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 16, "text": "What's the difference in the kind of tune that you'd write for one of your own jazz songs and for one of the \"Schoolhouse Rock!\" songs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Would you sing a few lines of \"Figure Eight\" for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's more in the beat than the melody. I might do anything for a \"Schoolhouse Rock!\" song. But, you know, it's more apt to be a pop kind of beat instead of a jazz beat. I will tell you about \"Fi"}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 18, "text": "When you were first getting started musically, I mean, you were really deep into Charlie Parker and wanted to emulate him. And you didn't sing very much because you were afraid that singing would seem corny or too commercial, too showbiz. And so it wasn't till, I think, you got to Paris in the '50s for a little bit that you actually started singing a lot.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Figure eight is double four. Figure four has half of eight. If you skate, you will be great, when you can make a figure eight. That's a circle that turns around up on itself."}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 19, "text": "How odd. What a strange experience.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I'm just a bill. Yes, I'm only a bill. And I'm sitting here on Capitol Hill. Well, it's a long, long journey to the capital city. It's a long, long wait while you're waiting in committee. Bu"}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 20, "text": "Now, when you started to play piano, what did you play?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very odd. You know, you never know when you're - I kept saying, you're singing too much. Just do it conversationally."}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Boogie woogie, the blues - I was a blues player. When I was 12 or 13 years old, I was deep into Pete Johnson. He was my hero - Pete Johnson from Kansas City, and Joe Turner. My brother Mort - the guy "}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Well, I'd love to hear you play something solo at the piano - I mean, to play a piano solo.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And so he and I would play the Joe Turner, Pete Johnson boogie woogie records. And we would copy them. I would copy them off the record, and we would - that's how I began playing the blues. I co"}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Well, tell us what you want to play and why you've chosen it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 24, "text": "OK. And while you're thinking, I'll say I really love your piano playing. So when you perform on the show, I always like to get you to play something.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I haven't chosen it. Let me think."}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Jack Sheldon, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) This love of mine goes on and on, though life is empty since you have gone. You're always on my mind, though out of sight. It's lonely through the day, but all the night I cry my heart out. "}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 26, "text": "I don't know why I have this image of you, but I always thought of you as somebody who relied a lot on humor in their singing and in music. And there's something so emotionally naked about some of the songs on your new record that really surprised me. I really love the singing and the playing on it. Is the choice of material or the kind of singing that you're doing a relatively recent development with you - the kind of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks. It's nice to be here."}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 27, "text": "...Ballad that you're doing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I've been trying..."}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 28, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I think I'm singing better now. I'm studying singing, and..."}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 29, "text": "Well, that's interesting. Tell me what you're getting from learning how to sing - I mean, in taking formal lessons.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I'm - so I just can do it better. But I've been doing it all my life. And it's - yeah, it's more naked, I think, more - I like that - emotionally naked. That's good."}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 30, "text": "Was there another change that happened to you besides taking lessons? Did something happen emotionally that left you more open to this kind of material?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, just real simple stuff - but, you know, to have a lot of foundation, get a lot of air and use your diaphragm. And I notice now when I - if I'm having trouble with a note, it's really because I d"}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 31, "text": "When you were playing in the 1950s, bop was the thing, and very few of the instrumentalists sang. Did you sing back then, and were you self-conscious about singing at all?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I got sober eight years ago, and I don't drink or take drugs or do anything like that. And I think that left me teachable. Before that, I thought I was really cool and I knew everything. So - an"}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 32, "text": "Did you have a reputation for doing that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I was always self-conscious about singing. And I wanted to sing, but it's so personal, singing. And I started singing with Benny Goodman's band, and that was about 1958. And I wrote a song and B"}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 33, "text": "What kind of work do you do with Lenny Bruce? You were in the band playing at the club or something?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I worked with Lenny Bruce and I was trying to kind of emulate him at the time."}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 34, "text": "And oh, really? Like, your own version of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, in burlesque, I worked with Lenny Bruce. We worked with his wife, Honey, and Joe Maini and Philly Joe Jones and Kenny Drew and Leroy Vinnegar. We had quite a real good band there, and we played "}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Oh, that must have been interesting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, a burlesque version."}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 36, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it was funny. I think it ended up where the guy flushed the dope down the toilet, and then Lenny said, there's nothing - there's only one thing to do is smoke the toilet."}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 37, "text": "Why don't I play another track from your latest album, \"On My Own\"? And I thought I'd play some of \"I Can't Get Started\" because it kind of shows off everything, your trumpet playing, you're singing. And it shows both, like, the emotionalism of your singing and also some of the humor in it, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It doesn't sound so funny now. You really had to be there, I guess."}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 38, "text": "That's Jack Sheldon on trumpet and vocals from his new album, \"On My Own.\" There's a really interesting documentary about the trumpeter Chet Baker that you were featured in. You were one of the people interviewed about Baker. And I remember you saying that - and I should mention that that, like you, Chet Baker played trumpet and sang. And you were very funny about him. You talked a little bit about how frustrating it was that he never - you know, you were always in a room rehearsing, you're practicing. And he never had a practice or anything. He always just had the sound. And he always looked so great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I've flown around the world in a plane. I've settled revolutions in Spain. The North Pole, I have charted, but still I can't get started with you. Around the golf course, I'm under par. And "}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 39, "text": "How old were you then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He never did. I hear Harry James never had to practice, but I have to practice all the time. Doc Severinsen practices all the time. But, you know, I was singing back there with Chetty when we were lit"}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 40, "text": "And how did you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I was about 14, 15. I was about 15 or 16, I guess."}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 41, "text": "How did you meet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because I was in Florida when I was 14. I was 16, and Chetty was about - I think about 18 or 19."}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 42, "text": "Now, how did you get to the West Coast from Florida, where you grew up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think at a place called The Showtime, which was on Sepulveda and Ventura Boulevard, and it was a jam session on Monday nights. And all the guys that were on the road would come in there. I got to pl"}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 43, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my aunt came out here first from Florida, and she was a swimming teacher. Crystal Scarborough (ph) was her name. And she taught babies how to swim. And then we moved out here, and my mother star"}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 44, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my aunt came out here first from Florida, and she was a swimming teacher. Crystal Scarborough (ph) was her name. And she taught babies how to swim. And then we moved out here, and my mother star"}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 45, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I used to have Kelly in the pool with me. And Nat Cole would be walking around the pool smoking cigarettes. He was a chain smoker. And I'd have Kelly sing, (singing) when the blue of the night mee"}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 46, "text": "How old were you when you started working professionally and when you started playing with other bands?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Slightly humorous. But I taught a lot of kids. I taught all of Paul Newman's kids. In fact, one of his daughters used to bite me on the ankle when I'd be talking to Joanne Woodward."}
{"id": "1155946858", "date": "2023-02-10", "guest": "Bob Dorough", "title": "Fresh Air celebrates the 50th anniversary of 'Schoolhouse Rock'", "question_index": 47, "text": "Jack Sheldon, thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was 12 in Jacksonville, Fla. And I had just started playing the trumpet. And I started working with Jean Brandt's (ph) band at the Washington Hotel there. Everybody was gone in the war. And so I sta"}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today we pay tribute to Burt Bacharach. He died last Wednesday at age 94. His name became synonymous with the craft of songwriting at its most elegant and imperiled, wrote music critic Francis Davis in The Atlantic. Full disclosure - Francis is my husband. Bacharach, along with his longtime collaborator, lyricist Hal David, wrote many hits in the '60s and early '70s, including \"Make It Easy On Yourself,\" \"I Just Don't Know What To Do With Myself,\" \"Only Love Can Break A Heart,\" \"Don't Make Me Over,\" \"Anyone Who Had A Heart,\" \"Wishin' And Hopin'\" and \"Always Something There To Remind Me.\" Here's some more Bacharach and David songs.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 1, "text": "In that medley, we heard Dionne Warwick, B.J. Thomas, The Stylistics, Jackie DeShannon, Tom Jones, Dusty Springfield and more Dionne Warwick. All those songs are written with lyricist Hal David. Bacharach was also known for his arrangements and his signature use of trumpet to accentuate his syncopations and shifting time signatures. We're going to listen to two of my interviews with Bacharach. We'll start with the one I recorded in 2010 with Bacharach and Hal David, when their musical \"Promises, Promises\" was revived on Broadway. Neil Simon wrote the book for the show, adapting it from the Billy Wilder movie \"The Apartment.\" The revival starred Sean Hayes and Kristin Chenoweth.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) What's it all about, Alfie? Is it just for the moment we live? What's it all about when you sort it out, Alfie? Are we meant to take more than we give, or are we meant to be kind? And if onl"}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 2, "text": "Burt Bacharach, Hal David, welcome to FRESH AIR. You know, it's such an honor to talk with you together. I was always hoping for a chance this would happen, and I'm grateful that it has. Let's talk about some of the songs you wrote for the show. Let's start with the title song \"Promises, Promises,\" which Jerry Orbach sang in the original production. So let's start by hearing his performance of \"Promises, Promises.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) What's it all about, Alfie? Is it just for the moment we live? What's it all about when you sort it out, Alfie? Are we meant to take more than we give, or are we meant to be kind? And if onl"}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 3, "text": "That's Jerry Orbach in the original cast recording of \"Promises, Promises.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Promises, promises. I'm all through with promises, promises now. I don't know how I got the nerve to walk out. If I shout, remember. I feel free. Now I can look at myself and be proud. I'm l"}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 4, "text": "So, Burt Bacharach, you said, it's so note-y because it has to show anger. Well, the instruments, the orchestra is kind of, like, churning behind", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Jerry Orbach - he was wonderful in the show. I mean, but I remember with Jerry Orbach coming into New York when I came into New York, and we'd come to see the show maybe after he'd been playing three "}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 5, "text": "the singer. And it's just like - there's such a kind of hyperactive energy going on there. And the time signature keeps changing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Jerry Orbach - he was wonderful in the show. I mean, but I remember with Jerry Orbach coming into New York when I came into New York, and we'd come to see the show maybe after he'd been playing three "}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 6, "text": "It changes, like, 20 times during the song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're right."}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 7, "text": "So it's just kind of, like, frenetic sounding and disorienting in a way. It's wonderful. Did you consciously say, when you sat down to write the song, it needs 20 different time signature changes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very good."}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 8, "text": "So you hear that all in your head as you're writing the song. You hear the percussion. You hear the trumpet.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no. I've never done anything, like, intentionally. When I write it out, I realize, hey; that's - you've got to change time signature in this bar, time signature in this bar. So it's not deliberate"}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 9, "text": "OK. Well, that leads me to the final version I want to play of \"Promises, Promises.\" And that's the one that was the really big hit, Dionne Warwick's version. Did you know at the start that you would ask her to do this song? She had already had hits with some of your songs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 10, "text": "She's incredible.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And also, how, you know, by having that kind of mobility - I mean, you take a song like \"Promises, Promises\" - in somebody else's hands, it could sound maybe labored or under duress being sung. Dionne"}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 11, "text": "Let's hear her recording of \"Promises, Promises.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...The ease."}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 12, "text": "One of the things I like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Promises, promises. I'm all through with promises, promises now. I don't how I got the nerve to walk out. If I shout, remember I feel free. Now I can look at myself and be proud. I'm laughin"}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 13, "text": "...About that recording - it's so vivid. And I just love all the orchestral things going on in the background. And, like, is it kettledrum or timpani that you're using in...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 14, "text": "Timpani.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Timp, yeah."}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 15, "text": "Oh, I just love hearing all of that. So that's all in your mind as you're writing the song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, orchestra bells. Yeah."}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 16, "text": "And I think it's actually more vivid on the Dionne Warwick recording than in the Broadway cast recording.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, just about."}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 17, "text": "It is, yeah. Uh-huh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 18, "text": "Let's talk about the other really big hit from the show, \"I'll Never Fall In Love Again.\" There's a great story behind the song. So whichever one of you wants to start telling it, go ahead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 19, "text": "OK, so we have to hear the song now. So this is \"I'll Never Fall In Love Again,\" aka the pneumonia song. And why don't we hear Dionne Warwick sing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. But we threw it out. That song didn't work. Everybody liked the song, but the audience didn't like the song. And while Burt was in the hospital, I started writing lyrics to that song. You know, "}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 20, "text": "We're remembering composer Burt Bacharach, who died last Wednesday at the age of 94. We'll hear more of my 2010 interview with Bacharach and his songwriting partner, the late lyricist Hal David, after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) What do you get when you fall in love? A guy with a pin to burst your bubble. That's what you get for all your trouble. I'll never fall in love again. I'll never fall in love again. What do "}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're remembering composer Burt Bacharach, who died last Wednesday. Let's get back to my 2010 interview with Bacharach and his longtime lyricist, Hal David. So how did you get a sense that you should collaborate with each other? I mean, what did you know about each other's work? What attracted you to each other musically?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) What do you get when you fall in love? A guy with a pin to burst your bubble. That's what you get for all your trouble. I'll never fall in love again. I'll never fall in love again. What do "}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 22, "text": "You've both - you wrote so many hits together. At what point did you break up? And why did you stop writing together?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Where you could go and play a song for one publisher. And then he said, I don't like it. And then you go down the hall and play it for another. And then, as I said, was a very interesting time."}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 23, "text": "So the film was bad. The songs were good. How did that break up your relationship?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. The score, I think, is a very good piece of work. But the movie just didn't work."}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 24, "text": "Really? It was - you were that discouraged from that movie?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't want to write anymore, period. And..."}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 25, "text": "Hal David, did you want to give up songwriting after the movie got such bad reviews and you realized how bad it was?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It was just - you know, I'm very happy to own that up, Hal, you know? We should've just - again, should've, could've - sat down and just said, let's wrote some new stuff for Dionne's album. But "}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 26, "text": "So I thought we could close with another song. And this is a song that you wrote - that you didn't write for \"Promises, Promises,\" but it's been interpolated into the new production. And the song is \"I Say A Little Prayer.\" And I thought we'd use Aretha Franklin's 1968 recording of it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I could understand why someone would. But no, I didn't. I kept writing."}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 27, "text": "Yeah. Were you amazed to hear her record this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Great record."}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 28, "text": "Why is this one better?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 29, "text": "OK. It's been really an honor to speak with you both. Thank you so much for doing this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's just more natural. We're talking about bar changes, time on the chorus. Forever, forever, you'll stay in my heart. And I will - you know, that's going 4/4, 3/4, 4/4, 3/4. Then regard the way it w"}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 30, "text": "I recorded that interview with songwriters Burt Bacharach and Hal David in 2010. Bacharach died last week. He was 94. Hal David died in 2012 at the age of 91. Coming up, an interview I recorded with Bacharach and Elvis Costello. They began collaborating on songs in the '90s. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 31, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I am Terry Gross. We're remembering songwriter and arranger Burt Bacharach. He died last Wednesday. He was 94. With his longtime songwriting partner, lyricist Hal David, Bacharach wrote many pop hits of the '60s and early '70s including \"The Look Of Love,\" \"Walk On By,\" \"Anyone Who Had A Heart,\" \"Don't Make Me Over,\" \"I Say A Little Prayer\" and \"Alfie.\" In 1998, 12 years earlier than my interview with Bacharach and Hal David, I spoke with Bacharach and Elvis Costello, who had begun collaborating together. The two would have been unlikely collaborators in the '70s, when Bacharach was famous for his harmonically and rhythmically complex, highly orchestrated pop songs and newcomer Elvis Costello was performing unpolished, high-energy pub rock. This unlikely duo was formed when they were asked to co-write a song for the film \"Grace Of My Heart.\" They continued to write songs together. Next month, a collection of their songs will be released on a box set called \"The Songs Of Bacharach & Costello.\" When I spoke with them in 1998, they'd just released an album of their songs called \"Painted From Memory,\" featuring Costello singing with Bacharach conducting the orchestra and playing piano.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) The moment I wake up, before I put on my makeup, makeup, I say a little prayer for you. And while combing my hair now and wondering what dress to wear now, wear now, I say a little prayer fo"}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 32, "text": "Elvis Costello, what have you learned from working with Burt Bacharach about the construction of songs, about harmonics and meter and all of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) The moment I wake up, before I put on my makeup, makeup, I say a little prayer for you. And while combing my hair now and wondering what dress to wear now, wear now, I say a little prayer fo"}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 33, "text": "Well, you know, when I, like, for instance, listen to \"Promises, Promises,\" I never thought to myself, gee, what a tricky set of signature - time signature changes, but - and the sheet music. If you look at the sheet music - the line, promises, those kind of promises take all the joy from life - there's one bar of 3/4 followed by a bar of 4/4 followed by a bar of 6/4, then 3/4...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You said, come on, we're going to - after \"God Give Me Strength,\" they'll all be, like, dancing."}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 34, "text": "...4/4 then 6/4. And then, promises, promises, my kind of promises, that's 3/4, 3/8 and then 4/8. I mean, who even sees 3/8 in sheet music? So Burt Bacharach, these kind of shifts just come into your mind and then you write them down and that's when you realize how tricky they are?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very good."}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 35, "text": "Right, 'cause that was written for the show \"Promises, Promises.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that was driven - yeah, that certainly was driven by the intensity of what that had to say theatrically, on stage, in \"Promises.\""}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 36, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So it had to have a drive of its own. And, yeah. I heard it, played it, and started to notate it, write it down. Oh, my goodness. We got a 3/8 bar, and here comes another 3/8 bar 'cause it can'"}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 37, "text": "Well, Burt Bacharach, what influenced you harmonically? What music were you listening to that you think formed your basic, you know, musical, harmonic mind?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, this is the kind of stuff that you can every day work together - throws up, you know? Obviously, we - to go back to your question about harmonics or harmony, I should say, the - I mean, I've w"}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 38, "text": "And why do you think that rather than becoming, say, a bop musician or bop composer, arranger, you went into pop instead?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think when I did get interested in music, it certainly was the French impressionist Ravel, you see, and Rachmaninoff. And suddenly, to hear what was going on in the world of jazz, opposed to the wor"}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 39, "text": "Right. Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I don't think I would have ever been a good enough jazz pianist, bop pianist. You know, I was influenced by it. But the same reason I never became a serious classical composer starting with Darius"}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 40, "text": "Yeah, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So there will never be - maybe that's the thing. But there'll never be a regret coming from me - you see? - where I'll say, oh, God. It - just been different, if I'd written that one great symphony. W"}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 41, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded in 1998 with Burt Bacharach and Elvis Costello. We'll hear more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mother was very disappointed."}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 42, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Burt Bacharach and Elvis Costello. When we recorded this in 1998, they'd just released an album of songs they co-wrote called \"Painted From Memory.\" Let me play \"God Give Me Strength,\" which was the song that you first collaborated on for the movie \"Grace Of My Heart.\" And it's the last track on your new CD, \"Painted From Memory.\" Do you want to say anything about writing the song before we hear it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mother was very disappointed."}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 43, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If anybody's seen \"Grace Of My Heart,\" I mean, it follows the story of a songwriter who goes through all sorts of tribulations romantically. And where this song appears in the story, it had to fulfill"}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 44, "text": "That's \"God Give Me Strength,\" originally written for the movie \"Grace Of My Heart,\" now featured on Elvis Costello and Burt Bacharach's CD \"Painted From Memory.\" \"God Give Me Strength\" opens with a lovely flugelhorn line. And Burt Bacharach, I mean, your arrangements are filled with flugelhorns and trumpets. I mean, there's so many songs of yours where that's just - I've come to think of it as a signature. I was wondering if you ever played trumpet or, you know, why you hear trumpets in so many of your songs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Now I have nothing, so God, give me strength 'cause I'm weak in her wake. And if I'm strong, I might still break. And I don't have anything to share that I won't throw away into the air. Tha"}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 45, "text": "So, Burt Bacharach, I want to get back to the idea that you often have a dummy lyric in your head when you're writing a melody or even when you're just writing an instrumental line in the arrangement. Can you give me an example of a song that you wrote a dummy lyric for just on the trumpet line?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But there is something about it, you know? Just say, sing it."}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 46, "text": "I want to play another record here, and I thought that we'd play the Elvis Costello version of the Burt Bacharach-Hal David song \"I Just Don't Know What To Do With Myself.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Say I had a figure that went (vocalizing), OK? And there was the trumpet that's going to play then. Now, rather than just notate it that way, I might write something - I'm very big with putting a hold"}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 47, "text": "And this is a great song, and there's great recordings of it. Elvis, your - I love your version of it. And then there's, of course, the Dusty Springfield version, which is a classic. And on the new Rhino box set, it also features the original version of the song by by Tommy Hunt. So before we hear all three versions, Burt Bacharach, would you tell us about writing the song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God."}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 48, "text": "Well, right now why don't we hear \"I Just Don't Know What To Do With Myself\"? And first, we'll hear Tommy Hunt, then Dusty Springfield, then Elvis Costello.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In the Brill Building days, where Hal and I would work every day, we had a whole roster of Scepter artists that were potentially artists to record. And I guess that was going to be either for Chuck Ja"}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 49, "text": "That was three versions of the Burt Bacharach-Hal David song \"I Just Don't Know What To Do With Myself,\" sung by Tommy Hunt, Dusty Springfield and Elvis Costello. We'll hear more of my 1998 interview with Burt Bacharach and Elvis Costello after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I just don't know what to do with myself. I just don't know what to do with myself. Baby, if your new love ever turns you down, come back. I will be around, just waiting for you. I don't kno"}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 50, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're remembering composer and arranger Burt Bacharach. Let's get back to my 1998 interview with Bacharach and Elvis Costello after they released an album of songs they co-wrote called \"Painted From Memory.\" It seems to me your careers started in really opposite places. Elvis Costello, you started in pubs in England. And, Burt Bacharach, you started being music director for people like Vic Damone and the Ames Brothers, Joel Grey, then Marlene Dietrich. And you were in, like, the big nightclubs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I just don't know what to do with myself. I just don't know what to do with myself. Baby, if your new love ever turns you down, come back. I will be around, just waiting for you. I don't kno"}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 51, "text": "Were you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, but I was in bars, too, first."}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 52, "text": "Why'd you get fired?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had a job playing in New York City and up in Cape Playhouse restaurant, got fired. Wow, that hurt?"}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 53, "text": "But, Burt Bacharach, I'm wondering what you learned from watching Marlene Dietrich perform, what you learned about what songs went over with an audience and how people put songs across to an audience that helped you later in your career as a composer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because they didn't like the way - maybe I didn't have a big enough repertory to know all the Rodgers and Hart songs and Vernon Duke songs. I don't know why I got fired. It really hurt. I thought I pl"}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 54, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know that I learned things about, like, what songs were - I did understand the theater of it all with Marlene, how she drove for every detail until it was perfect. I mean, we would go into the"}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 55, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that was good, really good."}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 56, "text": "What was it like for you when you started writing for rhythm and blues acts and rock 'n' roll performers after working, you know, for older performers and for older audiences in clubs? - you know, because when you started writing - I mean, you know, people like The Shirelles, you know, The Drifters, Jerry Butler. I mean, this is such a real distance.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And in Russia, too - I mean, if just - she'd stand in front of a light and be lit and call the directions standing rigid there for, like, four hours, five hours until she got it exactly the way she wa"}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 57, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, all the time I was really conducting, whether it's Vic Damone or the Ames Brothers, I was always thinking, I got to try to write some songs. This is what I should maybe - really maybe do. And so"}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 58, "text": "Well, I want to thank you both so much for talking with us. It's really been great fun. Thank you very, very much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's possible. I just remember playing the Olympia once with Dietrich and Quincy Jones coming backstage, you know. And I was having hits, and Quincy was my friend and came backstage. He said, what are"}
{"id": "1156489849", "date": "2023-02-13", "guest": "Dionne Warwick", "title": "Fresh Air pays tribute to legendary composer Burt Bacharach", "question_index": 59, "text": "Burt Bacharach and Elvis Costello recorded in 1998 after they released an album of songs they co-wrote called \"Painted From Memory.\" They continued to write songs together. A collection of their songs will be released March 3 called \"The Songs Of Bacharach And Costello.\" Burt Bacharach died last week. He was 94. How lucky we are to have all the songs he gave us. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guests will be film and TV costume designer Ruth E. Carter. She won an Oscar for the \"Black Panther.\" Now she's nominated for best costume designer for the sequel, \"Wakanda Forever.\" She did Spike Lee's early films \"Do The Right Thing\" and \"School Daze\" and was nominated for an Oscar for his \"Malcolm X\" and for Spielberg's \"Amistad.\" I hope you'll join us. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having us."}
{"id": "1157872471", "date": "2023-02-17", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 0, "text": "Ed Yong, welcome back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University, in for Terry Gross. After winning the Pulitzer Prize for his reporting for Atlantic magazine on the first y"}
{"id": "1157872471", "date": "2023-02-17", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 1, "text": "So your book is about how every animal, including us, is enclosed within its own sensory bubble, as you put it, perceiving but a tiny sliver of an immense world, which leads to the word umwelt, which is a word I'm sure you'll be using. So why don't you describe what it is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hi. Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "1157872471", "date": "2023-02-17", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 2, "text": "Where are you now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So umwelt was popularized by a German biologist named Jakob von Uexkull. The word comes from the German for environment, but von Uexkull wasn't using it to mean the physical environment. He meant the "}
{"id": "1157872471", "date": "2023-02-17", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I am in my home in D.C. I am in the recording studio/shoe closet..."}
{"id": "1157872471", "date": "2023-02-17", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 4, "text": "OK, so it's not exactly a rich sensory environment. But if you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Of my bedroom, or as my wife calls it, our shoe-deo (ph)."}
{"id": "1157872471", "date": "2023-02-17", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 5, "text": "If you were one of the animals you were writing about, or insects or birds, what might you perceive in this studio/closet that you can't perceive now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is not."}
{"id": "1157872471", "date": "2023-02-17", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 6, "text": "Let's talk a little bit about vision. You mentioned ultraviolet light, which we cannot see. All the colors we see are based on three colors - blue, yellow and red, although I really don't understand exactly...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So at the start of the book, I do this - exactly this thought experiment, right? I imagine that I'm - a human is sharing a physical space with a bunch of creatures - say, a rattlesnake, an elephant, a"}
{"id": "1157872471", "date": "2023-02-17", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 7, "text": "Red, green and blue - wait, I thought green was blue and yellow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Red, green and blue."}
{"id": "1157872471", "date": "2023-02-17", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 8, "text": "No kidding. Really? Oh, I didn't know that. OK. So we see red, green and blue.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So you're thinking about primary colors, like with paints. For light, it's different. So with light, it's based on red, green and blue."}
{"id": "1157872471", "date": "2023-02-17", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 9, "text": "So what are we missing? Like, for insects that can see - or butterflies, I guess, that can see ultraviolet light - what are we missing, for instance, in flowers, which are beautiful enough with what we can see, but what are we missing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, we have three kinds of color-sensitive cells in our eyes that are most sensitive to red, green and blue."}
{"id": "1157872471", "date": "2023-02-17", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 10, "text": "Oh, it's really form follows function.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So flowers absolutely are extraordinarily beautiful. But if you had the ultraviolet vision that a bee has, you'll be able to see patterns on those flowers that we can't see. So a sunflower, for exampl"}
{"id": "1157872471", "date": "2023-02-17", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 11, "text": "So what exactly is UV light? I mean, we know it's used to, like, sanitize things, and, you know, like my electric toothbrush has a UV light in the little cleanser unit. But in terms of vision, like, what is it and why can't we usually see it? Like, the UV light in my toothbrush thing, when I turn it on to clean the toothbrush, I see blue. Maybe that's just a blue lightbulb. I don't know.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Right."}
{"id": "1157872471", "date": "2023-02-17", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 12, "text": "Let's talk about echolocation. Why don't you explain what it is?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2022 interview with science writer Ed Yong. His latest book, \"An Immense World: How Animal Senses Reveal The Hidden Realms Around Us,\" won the Carnegie Med"}
{"id": "1157872471", "date": "2023-02-17", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 13, "text": "Can we compare the bats' echolocation with an animal that is really, really different, dolphins? Because they use echolocation, too. They're different in terms of the environment they live in, their size, their needs. So could you compare them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Echolocation is a very advanced form of hearing that a lot of animals like bats and dolphins use to perceive the world around them. So they make high-pitched ultrasonic calls beyond the range of human"}
{"id": "1157872471", "date": "2023-02-17", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 14, "text": "So I have a cat. And a really interesting thing I learned about cats is that they have muscles in their bellies that sense vibration. Can you elaborate on that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Bats and dolphins are the two masters of echolocation in the animal kingdom. And in some ways, they use it to similar purposes. But the difference between them is mostly because dolphins are echo"}
{"id": "1157872471", "date": "2023-02-17", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 15, "text": "I really like the way you end the book. And you write about how most people think of, you know, the majesty of nature as being like canyons and mountains. But you write, equating wilderness with otherworldly magnificence treats it as something remote, accessible only to those with the privilege to travel and explore. It imagines that nature is something separate from humanity rather than something we exist within. Can you talk about that realization?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So many animals have vibration-sensitive cells in their organs of touch. So, you know, I have them in my fingertips, for example. It seems that cats have that on their bellies. And one scientis"}
{"id": "1157872471", "date": "2023-02-17", "guest": "Ed Yong", "title": "The human sensory experience is limited. Journey into the world that animals know", "question_index": 16, "text": "Ed Yong, it's been a pleasure to have you back on the show. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. This speaks to my earlier point that if you start thinking about the umwelt of other animals, you understand that nature's magnificence is all around us. It's in our backyards. It's in our garde"}
{"id": "1157875956", "date": "2023-02-17", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "Remembering De La Soul co-founder David Jolicoeur, aka Trugoy the Dove", "question_index": 0, "text": "Let me play something from the first De La Soul record, \"3 Feet High And Rising.\" And this is \"Three Is The Magic Number\" (ph). I mean, we're talking about what what kids listen to. And on this CD, you pay tribute to a type of kids song I imagine you grew up with, which is \"Multiplication Rock.\" And so this is - this kind of takes off from there. Let's hear it. This is \"Three Is The Magic Number\" (ph).", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's from the album \"3 Feet High And Rising.\" The group was known for sampling widely from Steely Dan, Ben E. King, George Clinton, Lee Dorsey, Liberace and others. De La Soul's members were middle "}
{"id": "1157875956", "date": "2023-02-17", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "Remembering De La Soul co-founder David Jolicoeur, aka Trugoy the Dove", "question_index": 1, "text": "That's from De La Soul's first CD. It was really refreshing, I think, to hear rap that was ironic and really playful. And I'm wondering if you were almost afraid to do that then, because it was so different from the kind of more hardcore rap that took itself really seriously.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Got to have soul. (Singing) Three, that's the magic number. Yes, it is. Three. (Singing) It's the magic number. Three. (Singing) Somewhere in this hip-hop soul community was born three - Mase, Dove an"}
{"id": "1157875956", "date": "2023-02-17", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "Remembering De La Soul co-founder David Jolicoeur, aka Trugoy the Dove", "question_index": 2, "text": "Not only didn't you want to go along with fads, you had a song on that CD called \"Take It Off\"...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...LL Cool Js and KRS-Ones. And, you know, none of these groups sound anything alike. You know, everyone was doing their own thing. So to step into the game or even try to introduce our game - ourselv"}
{"id": "1157875956", "date": "2023-02-17", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "Remembering De La Soul co-founder David Jolicoeur, aka Trugoy the Dove", "question_index": 3, "text": "...In which you urged people to throw away throw away stuff that was faddish, whether it was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1157875956", "date": "2023-02-17", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "Remembering De La Soul co-founder David Jolicoeur, aka Trugoy the Dove", "question_index": 4, "text": "...You know, clothing or ideas. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1157875956", "date": "2023-02-17", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "Remembering De La Soul co-founder David Jolicoeur, aka Trugoy the Dove", "question_index": 5, "text": "Why don't we hear just a little bit of \"Take It Off\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, definitely. I think, you know, that's one of the things that we did try to, you know, make the - obviously, the highlighted theme of \"3 Feet High And Rising,\" into era was just, you know, indivi"}
{"id": "1157875956", "date": "2023-02-17", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "Remembering De La Soul co-founder David Jolicoeur, aka Trugoy the Dove", "question_index": 6, "text": "That's more music from De La Soul's first CD, \"3 Feet High And Rising.\" My guests are two of the three members. What's the range of reactions you got to that first CD, which was filled with humor and irony and - we'll get to this later - with samples from just all kinds of different music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Take it off. Take that Kangol off. Please. Take it off. Please. Take that Jordache off. Please. Take it off. Please. Take that Afro off. Please. Take it off. Take that jheri curl off. Take it off. Ple"}
{"id": "1157875956", "date": "2023-02-17", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "Remembering De La Soul co-founder David Jolicoeur, aka Trugoy the Dove", "question_index": 7, "text": "Did you think anything was misinterpreted?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, things like that are always good. So aside even from, you know, our peers in the game itself, you know, just people as a whole, just, like, kind of - \"3 Feet High and Rising\" was some sort o"}
{"id": "1157875956", "date": "2023-02-17", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "Remembering De La Soul co-founder David Jolicoeur, aka Trugoy the Dove", "question_index": 8, "text": "I wonder how much of that just came from the design on the album jacket. It's got, like, daisies on it and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the only thing that maybe was misinterpreted - that people kept classifying us to be hippies - you know? - when we didn't really have an understanding of what that was all about, you know? It "}
{"id": "1157875956", "date": "2023-02-17", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "Remembering De La Soul co-founder David Jolicoeur, aka Trugoy the Dove", "question_index": 9, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. People misinterpreted the look, you know? I mean, I think people thought that we were going out trying to, I guess, advertise ourselves as, you know, this fun-loving, you know, '60s hip-hop grou"}
{"id": "1157875956", "date": "2023-02-17", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "Remembering De La Soul co-founder David Jolicoeur, aka Trugoy the Dove", "question_index": 10, "text": "The samples on that first CD included Steely Dan, Liberace, Otis Redding, the Jarmels, who did \"A Little Bit Of Soap.\" \"Stand By Me,\" I think, is sampled on it, the Ben E. King record. There's a French language instruction record. How did you know all these records?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know? So I think that's the only thing that kind of, like, got at us, was, like, you know, when it came down to publicity and advertising the record, people always wanted us to take pictures with "}
{"id": "1157875956", "date": "2023-02-17", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "Remembering De La Soul co-founder David Jolicoeur, aka Trugoy the Dove", "question_index": 11, "text": "Really", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And my parents were listening to Perry Como, Liberace, Sammy Davis Jr. and..."}
{"id": "1157875956", "date": "2023-02-17", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "Remembering De La Soul co-founder David Jolicoeur, aka Trugoy the Dove", "question_index": 12, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And my parents were listening to Perry Como, Liberace, Sammy Davis Jr. and..."}
{"id": "1157875956", "date": "2023-02-17", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "Remembering De La Soul co-founder David Jolicoeur, aka Trugoy the Dove", "question_index": 13, "text": "Uh-huh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And Pos' parents have a real strong Southern background."}
{"id": "1157875956", "date": "2023-02-17", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "Remembering De La Soul co-founder David Jolicoeur, aka Trugoy the Dove", "question_index": 14, "text": "Oh, Home of the Good Guys. Yeah, right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, a lot of stuff that was on this popular station called ABC back in the day."}
{"id": "1157875956", "date": "2023-02-17", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "Remembering De La Soul co-founder David Jolicoeur, aka Trugoy the Dove", "question_index": 15, "text": "So these are records that you really liked, even if you like some of them for being really bad, I mean, for just really being so awful that they were fun?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then, of course, Prince Paul, who collected stuff like \"Multiplication Rock\" and Mickey Mouse records and, you know, all sorts of kiddie records like that. So just, you know, the - you know, every"}
{"id": "1157875956", "date": "2023-02-17", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "Remembering De La Soul co-founder David Jolicoeur, aka Trugoy the Dove", "question_index": 16, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. You - I mean, you're always going to find something. I - you know, it's not every record. I mean, there are a lot of records that are in our crates that, you know, are just, like, you know, "}
{"id": "1157875956", "date": "2023-02-17", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "Remembering De La Soul co-founder David Jolicoeur, aka Trugoy the Dove", "question_index": 17, "text": "Well, I think we'd better hear the Liberace sample.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm not going to sit here and say that I listen to Liberace all day, but, you know, that introduction was just incredible, you know? And that worked for De La Soul. It was like - you know, that had to"}
{"id": "1157875956", "date": "2023-02-17", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "Remembering De La Soul co-founder David Jolicoeur, aka Trugoy the Dove", "question_index": 18, "text": "That's from De La Soul's first CD, \"3 Feet High And Rising.\" My guests are two of the three members of the group, Dave and Mase. So when you started sampling, I'm wondering if you started shopping for records in a different way than you ever did before, just looking for cool things to put on your own records.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The first time around, you didn't quite understand our new style of speak. Don't worry. We can fix that right now. So why don't you all just grab your bags? Come on board, hoist the anchor, and we'll "}
{"id": "1157875956", "date": "2023-02-17", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "Remembering De La Soul co-founder David Jolicoeur, aka Trugoy the Dove", "question_index": 19, "text": "Do you mostly go to used record stores and look for vinyl? Or do you use CDs for sampling too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What's so funny - the method of shopping for records was kind of, like, really different. I mean, it's like that for a lot of hip-hop artists. We sometimes are clueless of the artists and what music t"}
{"id": "1157875956", "date": "2023-02-17", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "Remembering De La Soul co-founder David Jolicoeur, aka Trugoy the Dove", "question_index": 20, "text": "How did you guys meet in high school?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2000 interview with two members of the influential hip-hop group De La Soul, David Jolicoeur and Vincent Mason, popularly known as Dave and Mase. David Jol"}
{"id": "1157875956", "date": "2023-02-17", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "Remembering De La Soul co-founder David Jolicoeur, aka Trugoy the Dove", "question_index": 21, "text": "What was the party scene in Amityville like?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1157875956", "date": "2023-02-17", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "Remembering De La Soul co-founder David Jolicoeur, aka Trugoy the Dove", "question_index": 22, "text": "I'm wondering if either of you had parents who were very political - and not necessarily voting booth politics, but just in terms of having a kind of political social analysis of of class and race in America and if they talked to you a lot about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They don't play slow jams at the parties anymore."}
{"id": "1157875956", "date": "2023-02-17", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "Remembering De La Soul co-founder David Jolicoeur, aka Trugoy the Dove", "question_index": 23, "text": "Well, I want to thank you both so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And those things were more important than, you know, her working a 12-hour shift or what have you, my mom and my dad trading up on shifts and, you know, you babysit them, then while I'm going away - i"}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 0, "text": "You must be used to handling absolutely everything and anything. For five years in the mid '70s, you were the emcee at Catch a Rising Star, a comedy club.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Richard Belzer played John Munch for seven years on \"Homicide,\" then played the same role on \"Law & Order: Special Victims Unit\" for another 15 years until 2014. He also played Detective Munch in "}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 1, "text": "So you must have learned how to handle everything including the craziest hecklers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 2, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, well, when I first started, I didn't talk to the audience at all. I just introduced the acts. And then, as time went on, I realized that I had to address the audience and - asking people where t"}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 3, "text": "You said sometimes you would initiate it. How so?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a good analogy."}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 4, "text": "You've seen a lot of bad comics perform?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, if I saw - if I come out on stage, I don't usually like to start with prepared remarks. I usually just come out and say hello to the audience. And then, if I see someone who looks interesting in"}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 5, "text": "What are some of the mistakes you've seen them made that you've learned from?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 6, "text": "Richard, can I ask you to move about an inch back from the microphone?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, a lot of them make the mistake that I made when I first started, and that's to rush your material when you're not getting a laugh, to speed it up. And that's the death knell. That's the worst th"}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 7, "text": "Great. Thanks a lot. The P's are just popping a little bit.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 8, "text": "No", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sorry."}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sorry."}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Imitating George H.W. Bush) Well, I didn't realize it."}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 11, "text": "You've done a lot of television, and I'm going to ask you about what was, I'm sure, the most dramatic moment for you, which is when you were hosting \"Hot Properties\" and your guests were Hulk Hogan and Mr. T...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Imitating George H.W. Bush) But I thought the mic was in back of me. Mommy, could you move that mic for me? Thank you."}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 12, "text": "...For WrestleMania.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 13, "text": "Yeah. Well, you were nearly killed on that program.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The fascist twins."}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 14, "text": "Yeah, and Haystacks Calhoun, I remember.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was. I'm glad you found that humorous. But, no, it was one of the most bizarre events ever because I had them on the show. Someone on my staff said, we can get Mr. T and Hulk Hogan on the show. And "}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 15, "text": "A stranglehold?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, exactly. So then, it was more theatrical and taken for what it was. These guys, for some reason - I think it's steroids - they harden the arteries of the brain and fear of not being masculine be"}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 16, "text": "When you were unconscious and you came to for a few seconds, did you really - I never saw this program. I never saw a tape of that particular show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And then, he - it's called a front chinlock. And then, he dropped me to the floor while I was unconscious. And I hit the back of my head on the floor and woke up in a few seconds and jumped to m"}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 17, "text": "But when you came to it, did you actually say, we'll be back after this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 18, "text": "Did you think you were dying?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I did. And my lawyer - not my lawyer. My doctor was amazed because I was in shock at the time. And I just sprang to my - first of all, when I was unconscious, I had a dream. And I was only out fo"}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 19, "text": "I'm probably cynical enough so that if I was watching at home, I would have thought, oh, I bet that was staged.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he knocked me out so fast. It was very - he started squeezing my head, and I tried to signal him, but I couldn't even lift my arms. And then my brain said, check, please, because there was no ox"}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 20, "text": "Well, let me ask you about your life and how you got into comedy. Now, I know you grew up in a housing project.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1987 interview with actor and standup comic Richard Belzer, who died Sunday at age 78."}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 21, "text": "And I've read that you didn't have a lot of money when you were growing up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 22, "text": "And I assume that you were one of the funny kids in the neighborhood.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 23, "text": "Was that a kind of protective shield for you - being funny? Did that mean that you weren't going to be picked on by the toughest kids around?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 24, "text": "Instigate through verbal abuse.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's interesting. My wit has saved me more than once. And I found when I was a kid that the tough guys - a lot of the tough guys in the school liked my wit. So I would hang around with some toug"}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 25, "text": "Yes, you do.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I sound like a little fascist, don't I?"}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 26, "text": "Now, you've said in one of your routines that when you were young, your mother used to beat you and that you would try to tell her jokes to get her to stop.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's when I was a little - you know, I was young. It was 30 years ago as a young, skinny kid."}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 27, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Right. Well, she was the toughest audience I ever had."}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 28, "text": "Well, how true is that, though?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And my kitchen was the toughest room I ever worked."}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 29, "text": "Now, you've also said in your routines that you were thrown out of every school that you went to. Does that include college? Were you thrown out of college?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, it's quite literally true. I - it all - unfortunately, it didn't work as much as legend has it. But I - when I was a kid, I had a crew cut, or a zip, what they called then, very short hair. "}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 30, "text": "For this you got thrown out of college?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was no bomb throwing. There was no Mario Savio. There was no..."}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 31, "text": "Right. Right. Now, then you went into the Army.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that was on my record, that, you know, I led a demonstration. I broke curfew. I, you know, had liquor in the dorm. You know, how bad can you be in 1964?"}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 32, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And I was thrown out of the army, too. Well, I was actually discharged under honorable conditions for being too funny to carry a gun."}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 33, "text": "That's amazing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They said, wait a minute. This guy's too funny. He's too - which is almost true. Actually, I got out of the Army by feigning mental illness, if you will. I pretended that I was suicidal, and I staged "}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 34, "text": "That's probably one of your...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I hope no one's listening..."}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 35, "text": "...One of your most convincing performances.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...From the Pentagon."}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 36, "text": "Did you ever think to yourself, what happens if I'm discovered, that this is just an act?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And I never do this on stage. Maybe I should."}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 37, "text": "When you were trying to get out of the Army and faking all this stuff.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What's that?"}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 38, "text": "Right. If you could do this so well, who wants you around anyways?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that it's kind of, like, partially - you know, they knew that I was acting crazy, but I was crazy to do that in the first - it was kind of like that. You know, it was like..."}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 39, "text": "Now, you were talking about the chaplain in the Army who lectured you about...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. It was like Kafka meets \"Catch-22\" or something."}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 40, "text": "...Lectured you about Judaism. I think the very first time I saw you perform was on \"Saturday Night Live.\" And you were doing your impression of Bob Dylan in, like, a retirement center, singing in a Yiddish accent.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Charlie Chaplin."}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 41, "text": "Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, I hate to ask questions like how did that idea come to you, but really, how did that idea come to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, the 86-year-old Bob Dylan."}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 42, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when I was a kid - I hate to say that Bob is that much older than me. Well, when I was a kid, when I was a teenager, and we started first getting into Bob Dylan and we - then we found out his re"}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 43, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then he gets older, you know? Oy, oy."}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 44, "text": "Who spoke Yiddish in your family?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "People called, said, beware, doll. You're bound to fall. You thought they was all kidding you, and so on."}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 45, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, I just got back into Yiddish music. I've discovered these things. My - everyone in my family spoke Yiddish. But I resent the fact that they didn't share. They didn't teach me. They didn't te"}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 46, "text": "You know, since it was the older people in your family who spoke Yiddish, did you think that when you grew up, you'd automatically know the language?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And you don't know what the punch - it was the most frustrating thing I've ever - I still resent my uncles to this day for doing that to me. And I wish I could remember the comedian that did that. I g"}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 47, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's funny because I have a theory that everyone - when they get old, no matter what religion they are, they have a Jewish accent."}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 48, "text": "Oh, gosh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Even Irish people, you know? They get to be past 65. I'm going to go to the store now because - I'm in the store? Good because I can - hello? You know, everyone - Italians - everybody, for some reason"}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 49, "text": "Earlier in your career, you were the comic that used to warm up the audiences for \"Saturday Night Live?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Even Irish people, you know? They get to be past 65. I'm going to go to the store now because - I'm in the store? Good because I can - hello? You know, everyone - Italians - everybody, for some reason"}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 50, "text": "I didn't realize they'd even have a warm-up comic there. What kind of stuff did you have to do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I started doing that the first few shows, actually."}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 51, "text": "You know, one of the problems nowadays is that special interests are so fragmented. And there's only a fairly narrow number of things that everybody knows in common, like the records everybody knows or the books everybody's read. Do you ever want to say something in one of your routines that you know you can't say because only, like, three people are going to get the joke?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was kind of thrilling in those days to be a part of that because, you know, regardless of what anyone says, a lot of people didn't know how this was going to be accepted. This was like giving"}
{"id": "1159262333", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Law And Order", "title": "Remembering comic and 'Law & Order' actor Richard Belzer", "question_index": 52, "text": "Are you in stand-up for the long haul? Or would you eventually like to get out of it and just go into acting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I like to talk about esoteric things - I mean, not 90% of my act. But there are a lot of things in my act over the years that have been things that I've seen or read that is not open to the general "}
{"id": "1159271306", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Tim Mccarver", "title": "Remembering baseball announcer and former all-star catcher Tim McCarver", "question_index": 0, "text": "Welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University, in for Terry Gross. Tim McCarver, the All-Star pro baseball catcher and broadcaster, died last week of hear"}
{"id": "1159271306", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Tim Mccarver", "title": "Remembering baseball announcer and former all-star catcher Tim McCarver", "question_index": 1, "text": "Are there any permanent changes in your anatomy from having crouched and caught for so many years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much, Terry - nice being with you."}
{"id": "1159271306", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Tim Mccarver", "title": "Remembering baseball announcer and former all-star catcher Tim McCarver", "question_index": 2, "text": "Can I see your hands?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know whether there are permanent changes in my anatomy. I know that I can tell when it's raining outside without opening the shutters. I know when it's snowing and what the temperature is goin"}
{"id": "1159271306", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Tim Mccarver", "title": "Remembering baseball announcer and former all-star catcher Tim McCarver", "question_index": 3, "text": "They look...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Sure."}
{"id": "1159271306", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Tim Mccarver", "title": "Remembering baseball announcer and former all-star catcher Tim McCarver", "question_index": 4, "text": "Can you turn them over? Let me see the palms of your hands. They look normal. I wasn't - after seeing - after having the ball pound against your hand for so many years, I thought they might be more gnarled.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Normal."}
{"id": "1159271306", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Tim Mccarver", "title": "Remembering baseball announcer and former all-star catcher Tim McCarver", "question_index": 5, "text": "What is so grueling about catching?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when - the particular mitts that I used, I think, aided and abetting a longer-living left hand because the pitchers that you catch are - throw awfully hard. And when you catch the ball away from"}
{"id": "1159271306", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Tim Mccarver", "title": "Remembering baseball announcer and former all-star catcher Tim McCarver", "question_index": 6, "text": "When you say that the position is underestimated, do you mean by the fans, by the players or by the people in the front office?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Squatting, the foul tips, the mental strain - as much as anything, I mean, the feeling that you have to concern yourself with other people. A catcher really has to work with his pitcher. And when you "}
{"id": "1159271306", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Tim Mccarver", "title": "Remembering baseball announcer and former all-star catcher Tim McCarver", "question_index": 7, "text": "Why is it so unlikely that a catcher would be a great batter?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All of the above - the fans because they can only vicariously see what's going on and the front office because they often negotiate contracts. Like, the catcher was supposed to drive in 100 runs. I me"}
{"id": "1159271306", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Tim Mccarver", "title": "Remembering baseball announcer and former all-star catcher Tim McCarver", "question_index": 8, "text": "From your catcher's perspective, who should the strategist be - the catcher or the pitcher?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, primarily because of the fatigue. If I had a nickel for every third and fourth at bat of a game where I made an out, most of the time lazy fly balls the other way, it beats your arms down. The b"}
{"id": "1159271306", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Tim Mccarver", "title": "Remembering baseball announcer and former all-star catcher Tim McCarver", "question_index": 9, "text": "What is the show? What's the show about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the pitcher's the guy who has to throw the ball. And so he is the guy who ultimately throws the pitch. A catcher will suggest and suggest sometimes very strongly that a pitch should be called. A"}
{"id": "1159271306", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Tim Mccarver", "title": "Remembering baseball announcer and former all-star catcher Tim McCarver", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, do some pitchers resent it if the catcher tries to tell them what kind of pitch to throw? Do they feel like they're handing over their game to the catcher?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it shows that a catcher is going out there to slow down his pitcher to speed him up or talk about things. And catchers seem to make their living doing this. I remember Johnny Keane, when I was c"}
{"id": "1159271306", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Tim Mccarver", "title": "Remembering baseball announcer and former all-star catcher Tim McCarver", "question_index": 11, "text": "What about the batter? The batter comes up to hit. You're catching right next to him. Is there tension between the two of you frequently? Would you try to psych each other out...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. And I don't think any catcher worth his salt really tries to enforce a particular type of game from a pitcher. I think a lot of catchers with experience will try to railroad a young pitcher i"}
{"id": "1159271306", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Tim Mccarver", "title": "Remembering baseball announcer and former all-star catcher Tim McCarver", "question_index": 12, "text": "...Or knock off each other's equilibrium?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No."}
{"id": "1159271306", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Tim Mccarver", "title": "Remembering baseball announcer and former all-star catcher Tim McCarver", "question_index": 13, "text": "The pitchers who you worked with the longest were Bob Gibson and Steve Carlton. Did you have to act almost like a psychologist to both of those pitchers, just to psych out what they were doing in their game and to help them get more on track if they were losing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. A lot of catchers are often asked if they talk to the hitters. I never felt that it was professionally responsible to talk to hitters in particular situations like that. If you couldn't get them o"}
{"id": "1159271306", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Tim Mccarver", "title": "Remembering baseball announcer and former all-star catcher Tim McCarver", "question_index": 14, "text": "What were some of the things that you would tell Carlton or Gibson if they were in a slump? What could you tell them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think - I think psychologist is probably too strong a word because guys who are intelligent like Carlton and Gibson - and I caught some pitchers who weren't intelligent. And I'm not trying to "}
{"id": "1159271306", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Tim Mccarver", "title": "Remembering baseball announcer and former all-star catcher Tim McCarver", "question_index": 15, "text": "Are the balls that are the hardest to hit at bat also the balls that are hard to catch if you're a catcher?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I tried to stay away from things like that. Catchers are often put into awkward positions. As far as arm movement and arm location, I didn't tell him too many things at all about getting - you got to "}
{"id": "1159271306", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Tim Mccarver", "title": "Remembering baseball announcer and former all-star catcher Tim McCarver", "question_index": 16, "text": "Are there some fastballs that are so fast that you can't really see them that well?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. That's a good question, and that's true. Generally speaking, the balls that are toughest to hit are the toughest to catch. And because Bob Gibson was difficult to hit, it made him difficult to ca"}
{"id": "1159271306", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Tim Mccarver", "title": "Remembering baseball announcer and former all-star catcher Tim McCarver", "question_index": 17, "text": "Tim McCarver, you've been broadcasting since 1980. Was catching good preparation for the kind of sportscasting you're doing now. Was it a good position to play for sportscasting?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1987 interview with pro baseball catcher and broadcaster Tim McCarver, who died last week. He was 81 years old. At the time Terry interviewed him, McCarver"}
{"id": "1159271306", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Tim Mccarver", "title": "Remembering baseball announcer and former all-star catcher Tim McCarver", "question_index": 18, "text": "Anyone who's broadcast live knows that there are times when, because it's your turn to say something, you can say the stupidest thing, the most embarrassing thing that you ever imagined. Has that happened to you, that it's been, like, your turn, you open your mouth, and something all wrong and very embarrassing comes out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's the best preparation. A lot of people don't realize that catchers and the broadcasting booth are virtually doing - are facing the field, even though they're two stories higher, two or three stori"}
{"id": "1159271306", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Tim Mccarver", "title": "Remembering baseball announcer and former all-star catcher Tim McCarver", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it's happened to everybody who has broadcast. As an example, during the 1986 season, a season in which the New York Mets were obviously very successful, there was a lot to talk about and a very ex"}
{"id": "1159271306", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Tim Mccarver", "title": "Remembering baseball announcer and former all-star catcher Tim McCarver", "question_index": 20, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I can't believe I said that. And I looked at Ralph, and Ralph looked at me as if to say, get yourself out of this one, pal. And Ralph said, I think you meant cradle. I said, cradle, cradle. That's "}
{"id": "1159271306", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Tim Mccarver", "title": "Remembering baseball announcer and former all-star catcher Tim McCarver", "question_index": 21, "text": "You know a lot of the players' secrets because you've played with some of them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So certainly, you really do get in trouble there. But the one thing I do remember was from an old broadcast partner of mine who said that he had good advice as an ex-athlete - when he broke in. His na"}
{"id": "1159271306", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Tim Mccarver", "title": "Remembering baseball announcer and former all-star catcher Tim McCarver", "question_index": 22, "text": "Secret weaknesses - I don't mean, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1159271306", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Tim Mccarver", "title": "Remembering baseball announcer and former all-star catcher Tim McCarver", "question_index": 23, "text": "I don't mean their private lives.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "1159271306", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Tim Mccarver", "title": "Remembering baseball announcer and former all-star catcher Tim McCarver", "question_index": 24, "text": "But, like, little secret weaknesses that only other players would really know about or locker room talk that only other players would really have access to. Now you're a sportscaster, and you have to decide how much of that to inform your audience about. What are the ethics of that? Someone comes up to bat, and you know a lot about them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, right."}
{"id": "1159271306", "date": "2023-02-24", "guest": "Tim Mccarver", "title": "Remembering baseball announcer and former all-star catcher Tim McCarver", "question_index": 25, "text": "I want to thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, often, teams will not allow broadcasters or the media in the training rooms for obvious reasons. If a runner, a guy like a Vince Coleman of the St. Louis Cardinals, for instance, has a minor leg"}
{"id": "1160320273", "date": "2023-03-02", "guest": "Will Sommer", "title": "A new book explains how QAnon took hold of the GOP \u2014 and why it's not going away", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. A substance with special, energizing qualities that can only be found in the brains of children who have been sexually tortured in satanic rituals is harvested from children and distributed to top Democrats, Hollywood celebrities and bankers in the cabal. This substance called adrenochrome is a liquid fountain of youth that will help keep the users alive. How did that become a foundational belief of QAnon? How did it reflect and add to the antisemitic beliefs of this conspiratorial group? How did QAnon enter mainstream politics? These are among the questions journalist Will Sommer deals with in his new book, \"Trust The Plan: The Rise Of QAnon And The Conspiracy That Unhinged America.\" He warns that QAnon isn't a one-time phenomenon. It's just the start of the all-consuming conspiracy theory movements to come. He's been following QAnon from its very beginning and was writing about the far right even before that. His reporting has made him a target of QAnon, making it essential for him to wear disguises when he shows up at their rallies. Sommer says he has an unusual passion for consuming huge amounts of right-wing media after having been raised in a conservative Texas family where road trips meant listening to Rush Limbaugh's talk radio show. Sommer is a political reporter for The Daily Beast and co-host of the podcast \"Fever Dreams.\" Will Sommer, welcome to FRESH AIR. So let's start with January 6. You were outside the Capitol speaking to QAnon followers. You quote what one of them told you, which pretty well sums up a lot of the craziest of the QAnon beliefs. So just go through what this one person told you about why they were there to give back the presidency to Trump.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1160320273", "date": "2023-03-02", "guest": "Will Sommer", "title": "A new book explains how QAnon took hold of the GOP \u2014 and why it's not going away", "question_index": 1, "text": "And so this wasn't just about who would be president. As you say, it was a physical struggle with Satan and a fight for the soul of the world.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. So I spoke with a woman - and this is before the riot happened. I spoke with a woman named Teresa (ph) who had come from the Midwest to come out to D.C. But because she was a QAnon believer - an"}
{"id": "1160320273", "date": "2023-03-02", "guest": "Will Sommer", "title": "A new book explains how QAnon took hold of the GOP \u2014 and why it's not going away", "question_index": 2, "text": "Trump to QAnon believers - at least when he was president - was a savior. He was somebody who was going to right all the wrongs in the world and turn the world into a more utopian place. It was kind of like the second coming or something, and I just can't understand why, of all people, Trump became this messianic figure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. So as a QAnon believer, Teresa didn't just think that, you know, electing a Republican president means she'll have Supreme Court justices she likes or lower tax rates. I mean, she saw this re"}
{"id": "1160320273", "date": "2023-03-02", "guest": "Will Sommer", "title": "A new book explains how QAnon took hold of the GOP \u2014 and why it's not going away", "question_index": 3, "text": "Do they still have that kind of faith in Trump 'cause after all, he was president for four years? We don't all live in peace. We don't live in utopia. Diseases haven't been cured. And Trump plans on running again. So what are the QAnon followers' thoughts about Trump now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's fascinating. Some of them call him the God emperor of the United States. So rather than POTUS, they say GEOTUS. So, I mean, that is how deep their admiration and adulation for him runs."}
{"id": "1160320273", "date": "2023-03-02", "guest": "Will Sommer", "title": "A new book explains how QAnon took hold of the GOP \u2014 and why it's not going away", "question_index": 4, "text": "Ginni Thomas, Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas's wife, texted Mark Meadows, Trump's final chief of staff, that it looked like Trump had lost, but the election could have been a ruse to arrest top Democrats. And then she quoted from a QAnon website that Biden and his co-conspirators would be headed for Guantanamo Bay to face military tribunals. You just mentioned Guantanamo Bay. I mean, so two things here - one is a Supreme Court justice's wife is basically quoting QAnon beliefs. And the second thing is why Guantanamo Bay? Why does that - and military tribunals - why does that figure so much into QAnon? If you can - that's a lot to ask you in one answer. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, so certainly I think people cycle in and out of QAnon. You know, I think January 6, they thought, was going to be the moment they call the storm. They thought that would be when Trump would exec"}
{"id": "1160320273", "date": "2023-03-02", "guest": "Will Sommer", "title": "A new book explains how QAnon took hold of the GOP \u2014 and why it's not going away", "question_index": 5, "text": "So getting back to Trump, Trump's Doral resort in Miami is going to host a pro-QAnon speaking tour. The tour is called ReAwaken America. It's hosted by Michael Flynn, General Michael Flynn, who was the first national security adviser to Trump. He didn't last long. And it's also hosted by Clay Clark. I don't really know who Clay Clark is, but what is this ReAwaken America QAnon tour and why is Trump hosting it at his own resort?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. So first of all, yeah, let's take Ginni Thomas. So her text messages came out because the January 6 committee got them through Mark Meadows. And when I was reading them, I was so struck by how Q"}
{"id": "1160320273", "date": "2023-03-02", "guest": "Will Sommer", "title": "A new book explains how QAnon took hold of the GOP \u2014 and why it's not going away", "question_index": 6, "text": "And, of course, there's money involved. You mentioned that Michael Flynn was auctioning off a lot of items, including an autographed baseball bat, a bat autographed by Flynn himself that he sold for $7,000.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. So ReAwaken America is sort of - it's a very popular pro-Trump road show, essentially, that travels the country. And it's all of these conspiracy theorists under the banner, as you said, of Mich"}
{"id": "1160320273", "date": "2023-03-02", "guest": "Will Sommer", "title": "A new book explains how QAnon took hold of the GOP \u2014 and why it's not going away", "question_index": 7, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Will Sommer, author of the new book \"Trust The Plan: The Rise Of QAnon And The Conspiracy That Unhinged America.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Will Sommer, author of the new book \"Trust The Plan: The Rise Of QAnon And The Conspiracy That Unhinged America.\" He's been reporting on QAnon since it began. He's a politics reporter for The Daily Beast. What is the state of QAnon now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The amount of money involved in these events, I think people often really don't realize the - as you said, I went to an auction of QAnon paraphernalia. And they would have kind of a shoddily Photoshop"}
{"id": "1160320273", "date": "2023-03-02", "guest": "Will Sommer", "title": "A new book explains how QAnon took hold of the GOP \u2014 and why it's not going away", "question_index": 8, "text": "When was the last time Q sent a message? And what was that message?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. So after Biden's inauguration, I think QAnon believers were really shocked. And they sort of had to collect themselves. The anonymous figure Q had gone silent shortly before that and said, hey, "}
{"id": "1160320273", "date": "2023-03-02", "guest": "Will Sommer", "title": "A new book explains how QAnon took hold of the GOP \u2014 and why it's not going away", "question_index": 9, "text": "And in the U.S., there are factions and there are splits within QAnon. Can you tell us about some of those splits?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. So it was actually a few months ago. Q was offline for about a year. And there was briefly a Q impersonator in 2021. I was at a QAnon conference when it happened, and everyone was saying, oh, Q's"}
{"id": "1160320273", "date": "2023-03-02", "guest": "Will Sommer", "title": "A new book explains how QAnon took hold of the GOP \u2014 and why it's not going away", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, you know, you say this whole JFK Jr. story is one of the stories that drives you crazy. You know, JFK Jr. died in 1999 in a plane crash. And one of the people who impersonates him, Vincent Fusca, developed his own following. People dressed like him on Halloween. There are numerological calculations based on his license plate with secret meanings. You actually talked to him. What impression did you take away from this guy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely. I mean, this is one of the most fascinating things to cover about QAnon, is how QAnon more broadly, for someone outside of it, looks so ridiculous. But even within the movement, you ha"}
{"id": "1160320273", "date": "2023-03-02", "guest": "Will Sommer", "title": "A new book explains how QAnon took hold of the GOP \u2014 and why it's not going away", "question_index": 11, "text": "So is the whole bit here that JFK Jr. staged his own fake death so he could return as Q?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I've actually - I've talked to him many times, and he loves texting me to this day. So this is a guy who looks like, you know - and I don't think he would dispute this. He looks a little shabby."}
{"id": "1160320273", "date": "2023-03-02", "guest": "Will Sommer", "title": "A new book explains how QAnon took hold of the GOP \u2014 and why it's not going away", "question_index": 12, "text": "I'm sorry.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "trying to make sense of it. But basically..."}
{"id": "1160320273", "date": "2023-03-02", "guest": "Will Sommer", "title": "A new book explains how QAnon took hold of the GOP \u2014 and why it's not going away", "question_index": 13, "text": "No, I'm kidding", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no, no, no."}
{"id": "1160320273", "date": "2023-03-02", "guest": "Will Sommer", "title": "A new book explains how QAnon took hold of the GOP \u2014 and why it's not going away", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no, no, no."}
{"id": "1160320273", "date": "2023-03-02", "guest": "Will Sommer", "title": "A new book explains how QAnon took hold of the GOP \u2014 and why it's not going away", "question_index": 15, "text": "That's the thing. I've noticed I've laughed several times while we've been talking 'cause the conspiracy theories are really so ludicrous. At the same time, this is a really dangerous group. There have been murders attached to the group. The conspiracy theories are poisoning American politics and dividing the American people. So I want to excuse myself for laughing. It's just - I can't help but laugh at some of these beliefs. But it's dangerous.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There is an internal logic to it because the idea is that the deep state, the people who are out to get Donald Trump, the cabal, assassinated John F. Kennedy, the president. And so JFK Jr. saw this an"}
{"id": "1160320273", "date": "2023-03-02", "guest": "Will Sommer", "title": "A new book explains how QAnon took hold of the GOP \u2014 and why it's not going away", "question_index": 16, "text": "Right. Well, let's take another break here, and then, we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Will Sommer. He's the author of the new book \"Trust The Plan: The Rise Of QAnon And The Conspiracy That Unhinged America.\" We'll be back after a short break. I am Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That really is the sort of the thing you have to balance in your mind, is that it is so ridiculous, and there are a lot of moments of humor to it. I mean, just Vincent Fusca alone, this guy who, you k"}
{"id": "1160320273", "date": "2023-03-02", "guest": "Will Sommer", "title": "A new book explains how QAnon took hold of the GOP \u2014 and why it's not going away", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Will Sommer, author of the new book \"Trust The Plan: The Rise Of QAnon And The Conspiracy That Unhinged America.\" He's been reporting on QAnon from its start, which has led him to become a target of the group. Sommer is a political reporter for The Daily Beast and co-host of the podcast \"Fever Dreams.\" So two of the biggest conspiracy theorists in America were also two of the biggest promoters of QAnon and its conspiracy theories. And I'm talking about Alex Jones of Infowars fame and Jerome Corsi, who was one of the fathers of contemporary conspiracy theories. He was behind the Swift Boat campaign that derailed John Kerry's 2004 presidential campaign by saying he wasn't really a Vietnam War hero, and he didn't commit the acts of bravery that he was awarded for. Of course, he promoted birtherism, saying that Barack Obama was really born in Kenya and was therefore not qualified to be president. So how did they become proponents of QAnon?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That really is the sort of the thing you have to balance in your mind, is that it is so ridiculous, and there are a lot of moments of humor to it. I mean, just Vincent Fusca alone, this guy who, you k"}
{"id": "1160320273", "date": "2023-03-02", "guest": "Will Sommer", "title": "A new book explains how QAnon took hold of the GOP \u2014 and why it's not going away", "question_index": 18, "text": "And Alex Jones actually sends the message, I'm sick of all these witches and warlocks.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Alex Jones, as you say, is sort of the the godfather of the current American conspiracy theory movement. It really all centers on him. And Jerome Corsi is a guy who is a sort of trusted adviser of "}
{"id": "1160320273", "date": "2023-03-02", "guest": "Will Sommer", "title": "A new book explains how QAnon took hold of the GOP \u2014 and why it's not going away", "question_index": 19, "text": "So now there's a new development. Alex Jones has a conspiracy theory about the conspiracy group QAnon. And his conspiracy theory is that Q was actually created by U.S. intelligence to discredit conspiracy theorists like Alex Jones. Can you explain what's going on there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes."}
{"id": "1160320273", "date": "2023-03-02", "guest": "Will Sommer", "title": "A new book explains how QAnon took hold of the GOP \u2014 and why it's not going away", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yeah, it's kind of mind-boggling.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is a very interesting tactic. He - yes, as you say, he's saying - now that he's been cast out of QAnon, he turns on it, and now he says, well, this thing that makes us all look ridiculous, that i"}
{"id": "1160320273", "date": "2023-03-02", "guest": "Will Sommer", "title": "A new book explains how QAnon took hold of the GOP \u2014 and why it's not going away", "question_index": 21, "text": "Let's talk about antisemitism and QAnon. Maybe we should start with adrenochrome, which we talked about a little bit, or at least which I mentioned in the introduction to the interview. But go over again the conspiratorial beliefs about this substance known as adrenochrome.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's very mind-boggling. I mean, the ways that these messages can shift based on who's telling them and sort of the fight over the QAnon audience is really something to behold."}
{"id": "1160320273", "date": "2023-03-02", "guest": "Will Sommer", "title": "A new book explains how QAnon took hold of the GOP \u2014 and why it's not going away", "question_index": 22, "text": "So the adrenochrome thing dates back to this medieval conspiracy theory of the blood libel. So what is the blood libel, and how does it connect to the whole adrenochrome conspiracy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. So adrenochrome is sort of the - is at the heart of QAnon. It's the answer to, why does the cabal do this? Why do they, you know, stage these mass shootings? Why do they do all this bad stuff? U"}
{"id": "1160320273", "date": "2023-03-02", "guest": "Will Sommer", "title": "A new book explains how QAnon took hold of the GOP \u2014 and why it's not going away", "question_index": 23, "text": "Jews in Hollywood?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. So the blood libel is this topic that emerged around the 13th century. So we're in medieval Europe. This child went missing in England, and this rumor began that the local Jewish population had "}
{"id": "1160320273", "date": "2023-03-02", "guest": "Will Sommer", "title": "A new book explains how QAnon took hold of the GOP \u2014 and why it's not going away", "question_index": 24, "text": "By the way, if drinking adrenochrome from the brains of children who had been sexually abused by Satan is really - if that's a fountain of youth and gives you kind of eternal youth, which is one of the beliefs of QAnon, why have Democrats been accused of being a gerontocracy? I mean, look, Biden does not look young. Nancy Pelosi does not look young. They've both had work done. They still look like older people - Hillary Clinton, same. So, like, it doesn't match the world, the real world.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Jews in Hollywood as well. Thank you. Yes. Yes, prominent Jewish people in Hollywood. So the - they really take it directly from the blood libel to the extent that - I mean, this isn't just a coincide"}
{"id": "1160320273", "date": "2023-03-02", "guest": "Will Sommer", "title": "A new book explains how QAnon took hold of the GOP \u2014 and why it's not going away", "question_index": 25, "text": "For adrenochrome?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think often they're mistaking Botox, you know, fillers, etc."}
{"id": "1160320273", "date": "2023-03-02", "guest": "Will Sommer", "title": "A new book explains how QAnon took hold of the GOP \u2014 and why it's not going away", "question_index": 26, "text": "So where do you trace this conspiracy theory about having to harvest adrenochrome from children so that the elites can have a fountain of youth? Where does that originate?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For adrenochrome. But, you know, it is funny they - if they believe in adrenochrome, they sort of play it into real world events. So, for example, when the pandemic started and all of these TV shows h"}
{"id": "1160320273", "date": "2023-03-02", "guest": "Will Sommer", "title": "A new book explains how QAnon took hold of the GOP \u2014 and why it's not going away", "question_index": 27, "text": "OK. Well, let's take another break here. And if you're just joining us, my guest is Will Sommer. He's the author of the new book \"Trust The Plan: The Rise Of QAnon And The Conspiracy That Unhinged America.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. So if you can believe it, it's Hunter S. Thompson and \"Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas.\" In his book, the Hunter S. Thompson character receives a drug called adrenochrome from another character, "}
{"id": "1160320273", "date": "2023-03-02", "guest": "Will Sommer", "title": "A new book explains how QAnon took hold of the GOP \u2014 and why it's not going away", "question_index": 28, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Will Sommer, author of the new book \"Trust The Plan: The Rise Of QAnon And The Conspiracy Theory That Unhinged America.\" He's been reporting on QAnon since it began. He's a politics reporter for The Daily Beast. So let's talk about attempts to find out who Q is. You've talked to people who've tried to track down Q's identity. You have tried to track down Q's identity. No one has yet succeeded. So this all traces back to the two places that Q has actually left messages, 4chan and then 8chan, which became 8kun. And these are both, like, very far-right, very conspiracy-oriented channels. So again, in looking at who is Q since the most recent places, I think, still that he or she or they have communicated from is 8kun, people are looking at who runs it and who would know who is Q. Or maybe one of them is Q. So tell us a little bit about 8kun and its predecessor, 8chan, and how they have been linked to either knowing or being Q.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. So if you can believe it, it's Hunter S. Thompson and \"Fear And Loathing In Las Vegas.\" In his book, the Hunter S. Thompson character receives a drug called adrenochrome from another character, "}
{"id": "1160320273", "date": "2023-03-02", "guest": "Will Sommer", "title": "A new book explains how QAnon took hold of the GOP \u2014 and why it's not going away", "question_index": 29, "text": "Wait, seize control from who?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. So 8chan/8kun is an anonymous image board, and so it's essentially this very anarchic message board based on Japanese anime communities. So it is just a deluge of content, a lot of it pornograph"}
{"id": "1160320273", "date": "2023-03-02", "guest": "Will Sommer", "title": "A new book explains how QAnon took hold of the GOP \u2014 and why it's not going away", "question_index": 30, "text": "And what do the Watkins family, what do the father and son have to say about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So the best guess we have for who originally started it is a South African programmer named Paul Furber, who is sort of a - just a random guy who is interested in conspiracy theories. Paul Furb"}
{"id": "1160320273", "date": "2023-03-02", "guest": "Will Sommer", "title": "A new book explains how QAnon took hold of the GOP \u2014 and why it's not going away", "question_index": 31, "text": "If those two are behind it, if the people who run 8kun are behind it, does that mean that they're doing it just to get more followers, and therefore to maybe make more money?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Into The Storm,\" which really investigated this pair, his son, Ron, sort of confessed. He said, well, you know, this is what I've been doing with QAnon to accomplish these missions and to help people "}
{"id": "1160320273", "date": "2023-03-02", "guest": "Will Sommer", "title": "A new book explains how QAnon took hold of the GOP \u2014 and why it's not going away", "question_index": 32, "text": "Well, let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Will Sommer, author of the new book \"Trust The Plan: The Rise Of QAnon And The Conspiracy That Unhinged America.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I think initially the idea was that they sort of had a golden goose here in QAnon, in Q posting on their forum. And perhaps they believed, you know, what if we just take control of it and make su"}
{"id": "1160320273", "date": "2023-03-02", "guest": "Will Sommer", "title": "A new book explains how QAnon took hold of the GOP \u2014 and why it's not going away", "question_index": 33, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Will Sommer, author of the new book \"Trust The Plan: The Rise Of QAnon And The Conspiracy That Unhinged America.\" He's been reporting on QAnon since it began. He's a politics reporter for The Daily Beast. As I said before, you know, I've been laughing at some of the wild QAnon conspiracy theories. But I also have to say, it is not funny because this group has power. It is dangerous. It has committed crimes. Followers have committed murders. And so let's talk a little bit about the dangers. Let's start a little bit with family, because you've written about families where one family member becomes a part of QAnon, tries to convert the rest of the family. The rest of the family is mortified and doesn't know what to do to change the beliefs of the family member who's become part of QAnon, who's believing in these crazy conspiracy theories. So what are some of the patterns that you see in what family members who come to you tell you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I think initially the idea was that they sort of had a golden goose here in QAnon, in Q posting on their forum. And perhaps they believed, you know, what if we just take control of it and make su"}
{"id": "1160320273", "date": "2023-03-02", "guest": "Will Sommer", "title": "A new book explains how QAnon took hold of the GOP \u2014 and why it's not going away", "question_index": 34, "text": "This is a problem that has faced a lot of families whose children have joined cult groups. And there were, like, deprogrammers who were, you know, like, their profession was figuring out how to change the minds of people who believed false prophets and who had joined groups that were harmful to their health. Like, look at Jim Jones. He had all of his followers drink poisoned Flavor Aid, a form of, like, punch, knowing that it would kill them, and it did. Who are people turning to now to help their family members get out of believing these, you know, crazy conspiracy theories?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. I mean, this is - it's such a tragic thing. And because there are so few resources for this issue, I often find myself fielding questions from family members who have lost someone to QAnon. So o"}
{"id": "1160320273", "date": "2023-03-02", "guest": "Will Sommer", "title": "A new book explains how QAnon took hold of the GOP \u2014 and why it's not going away", "question_index": 35, "text": "And also, you know, if your beliefs aren't based on logic, logic will have a hard time undoing those beliefs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There really are not a lot of options. Even now, you know, I think there are a few more psychologists who are getting interested in this work. But, you know, in particular, during the Trump administra"}
{"id": "1160320273", "date": "2023-03-02", "guest": "Will Sommer", "title": "A new book explains how QAnon took hold of the GOP \u2014 and why it's not going away", "question_index": 36, "text": "You end your book by saying that QAnon isn't a one-time phenomenon. It's just the start of the all-consuming conspiracy theory movements to come. Why do you - what makes you say that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. I mean, so much of QAnon is about saying don't trust independent sources of truth - the media, the government, academia, scientists - because all of those people are lying, and they're conspi"}
{"id": "1160320273", "date": "2023-03-02", "guest": "Will Sommer", "title": "A new book explains how QAnon took hold of the GOP \u2014 and why it's not going away", "question_index": 37, "text": "Well, Will Sommer, thank you so much for your reporting. And thank you for being with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Well, I look at the state of the right right now and the way that QAnon really thrived and the way that no one who could have stopped QAnon's growth bothered to do it. I mean, I think about some"}
{"id": "1160320273", "date": "2023-03-02", "guest": "Will Sommer", "title": "A new book explains how QAnon took hold of the GOP \u2014 and why it's not going away", "question_index": 38, "text": "Will Sommer is the author of the new book \"Trust The Plan: The Rise Of QAnon And The Conspiracy That Unhinged America.\" He's a politics reporter for The Daily Beast. If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, like this week's interviews with actor Ke Huy Quan, who's nominated for an Oscar for his performance in \"Everything Everywhere All At Once,\" or actor Cate Blanchett and writer-director Todd Field, who were each nominated for Oscars for their work in \"Tar,\" or Jeanna Smialek, author of a new book about the power of the Federal Reserve, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of interviews. And don't forget our weekly newsletter about what happens behind the scenes on our show with links and stories from our producers. You can subscribe for free on our website, freshair.npr.org. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Seth Kelley, Susan Nyakundi and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having me."}
{"id": "1160920167", "date": "2023-03-03", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates the centennial of legendary bluegrass guitarist Doc Watson", "question_index": 0, "text": "I want to welcome both of you to FRESH AIR. And, Doc Watson, can I ask you to introduce the first song?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, sitting in for Terry Gross. Our show today is dedicated to Doc Watson, who was one of America's most revered folk musicians. He was born 100 years ago today. He"}
{"id": "1160920167", "date": "2023-03-03", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates the centennial of legendary bluegrass guitarist Doc Watson", "question_index": 1, "text": "I've read you say that if you weren't blind, you don't think you would have ever gone on the road, and I wasn't sure how to interpret that.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Doc Watson singing and playing guitar, along with guitarist Jack Lawrence, recorded in our studio in 1989. Today would have been Doc Watson's 100th birthday. We'll hear more of his FRESH AIR concert l"}
{"id": "1160920167", "date": "2023-03-03", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates the centennial of legendary bluegrass guitarist Doc Watson", "question_index": 2, "text": "Didn't your father make the first banjo that you played?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wouldn't have because of exactly what I was talking about. I would rather have a job where I could go home at night. I would have played music, of course. There's no doubt about that. Because I thin"}
{"id": "1160920167", "date": "2023-03-03", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates the centennial of legendary bluegrass guitarist Doc Watson", "question_index": 3, "text": "And what was it like for you the first time you got the banjo into your hands? What did you do with it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he did. That was in the summer of 1934 - made my first little stringed instrument. I had a harmonica before that. But Dad showed me a few of the old time frailing or clawhammer banjo-style tunes"}
{"id": "1160920167", "date": "2023-03-03", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates the centennial of legendary bluegrass guitarist Doc Watson", "question_index": 4, "text": "So you were really pretty self-taught.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't - you know, I really don't remember. I remember how I felt, but I don't remember hardly what it was like learning the first tunes. It was kind of hard for Dad to show me because I couldn't see"}
{"id": "1160920167", "date": "2023-03-03", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates the centennial of legendary bluegrass guitarist Doc Watson", "question_index": 5, "text": "How did you get your first guitar?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For the most part, yes, I was. The guitar - absolutely, I was self-taught."}
{"id": "1160920167", "date": "2023-03-03", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates the centennial of legendary bluegrass guitarist Doc Watson", "question_index": 6, "text": "Now, considering that your early instruments were homemade banjos and a mail-order guitar, did you ever get really obsessed with the quality of instruments that you were playing? Some musicians just play what they have, and others get really obsessed with having instruments that are just right for them or custom-made for them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "By pulling the crosscut saw. One spring, my dad told my youngest brother and I, boys, if you'll cut all those dead chestnut - small dead chestnuts down along the road and around the edge of the field "}
{"id": "1160920167", "date": "2023-03-03", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates the centennial of legendary bluegrass guitarist Doc Watson", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was fairly contented with what I had. I never had had my hands on a good guitar back in those days and didn't for years. The first good guitar that I got hold of that I would have considered much be"}
{"id": "1160920167", "date": "2023-03-03", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates the centennial of legendary bluegrass guitarist Doc Watson", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, I guess it's almost good in a way to get used to something like that because it makes it seem so much easier when you get a good guitar.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was really hard to play."}
{"id": "1160920167", "date": "2023-03-03", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates the centennial of legendary bluegrass guitarist Doc Watson", "question_index": 9, "text": "It was really during the folk revival that you started to become nationally known. I think you'd been playing dances and, you know, playing in your area.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're paying tribute to the revered folk guitarist and singer Doc Watson, who would have been 100 years old today. Let's get back to Terry's 1988 interview with him."}
{"id": "1160920167", "date": "2023-03-03", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates the centennial of legendary bluegrass guitarist Doc Watson", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, see, this really interests me. You were playing rockabilly and an electric guitar...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I played rockabilly music through the '50s. And I played an electric guitar, a Les Paul."}
{"id": "1160920167", "date": "2023-03-03", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates the centennial of legendary bluegrass guitarist Doc Watson", "question_index": 11, "text": "Now, the way I understand it, Ralph Rinzler, who was working at the Smithsonian Institute, came down looking for traditional Southern musicians, came down your way and heard about you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm hmm, rockabilly and old pop standards with an old boy named Jack Williams. Jack had a little group together, and when he heard me pick, he said, buddy, I want you to pick with me."}
{"id": "1160920167", "date": "2023-03-03", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates the centennial of legendary bluegrass guitarist Doc Watson", "question_index": 12, "text": "Now, you had been playing, you know, electric guitar. Did you have to switch over to acoustic in order to make it in the folk revival?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was looking for Clarence Ashley and found him - Clarence Tom Ashley. And I had played music with Tom on a few land sales and a few little shows here and there. And Ralph came over and when he heard"}
{"id": "1160920167", "date": "2023-03-03", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates the centennial of legendary bluegrass guitarist Doc Watson", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I switched back to the acoustic. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, Lord, if you'd took an electric guitar on the stage..."}
{"id": "1160920167", "date": "2023-03-03", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates the centennial of legendary bluegrass guitarist Doc Watson", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, I want to play something that was recorded by Ralph Rinzler - I mean, Ralph Rinzler recorded it. You're performing", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1160920167", "date": "2023-03-03", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates the centennial of legendary bluegrass guitarist Doc Watson", "question_index": 15, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1160920167", "date": "2023-03-03", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates the centennial of legendary bluegrass guitarist Doc Watson", "question_index": 16, "text": "And this is a recording - it was from the early 1960s. And this is \"Everyday Dirt.\" Tell us a little bit about the song before we hear this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In my living room. In my living room, yeah."}
{"id": "1160920167", "date": "2023-03-03", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates the centennial of legendary bluegrass guitarist Doc Watson", "question_index": 17, "text": "OK, so from the early 1960s, this is my guest, Doc Watson.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A fellow, David McCarn, was living in a mill town, Gastonia, N.C. And he heard about some recording sessions going on down - I think it was Knoxville, Tenn. And he probably slung his guitar over his b"}
{"id": "1160920167", "date": "2023-03-03", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates the centennial of legendary bluegrass guitarist Doc Watson", "question_index": 18, "text": "Recorded in the early 1960s, that's my guest Doc Watson. How did you learn how to pick that way? We found out that you were self-taught, but it seems like it would be really hard to teach yourself an intricate style like that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Now, John come home all in a wonder, rattled at the door, just like thunder. Who is that, Mr. Hendley cried. 'Tis my husband. You must hide. Then John sat down by the fireside weeping and up"}
{"id": "1160920167", "date": "2023-03-03", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates the centennial of legendary bluegrass guitarist Doc Watson", "question_index": 19, "text": "Once you put down the electric guitar for the acoustic guitar, how often did you pick up the electric guitar again?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, by listening to the old records, you could hear - after you got familiarized with the instrument, you could hear what strings they were hitting on and what chord they were playing in just by the"}
{"id": "1160920167", "date": "2023-03-03", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates the centennial of legendary bluegrass guitarist Doc Watson", "question_index": 20, "text": "Do you miss it at all?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very seldom. After I got into folk music and into the revival and began to play little jobs at coffeehouses, I don't - I seldom, if ever, picked up the electric guitar."}
{"id": "1160920167", "date": "2023-03-03", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates the centennial of legendary bluegrass guitarist Doc Watson", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not - I love a good electric guitar. That one wasn't all that good. It was a second, actually. It was a Les Paul Gibson. But it really was a second. The neck on it wasn't all that good. I thought "}
{"id": "1160920167", "date": "2023-03-03", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates the centennial of legendary bluegrass guitarist Doc Watson", "question_index": 22, "text": "Once you went on the road during the folk revival - now you weren't used to traveling. There must have been a lot you learned - had to learn how to do. Did you have a business manager to help you out with bookings and...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's guitarist and singer Doc Watson and guitarist Jack Lawrence recorded in our studio in 1989. Let's get back to Terry's 1988 interview with Doc Watson."}
{"id": "1160920167", "date": "2023-03-03", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates the centennial of legendary bluegrass guitarist Doc Watson", "question_index": 23, "text": "Oh, yeah, sure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ralph Rinzler did the bookings between he and Manny Greenhill of Folklore Productions. But Ralph traveled a lot with me, and if he didn't - and when I would go to New York to work in the city, I came "}
{"id": "1160920167", "date": "2023-03-03", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates the centennial of legendary bluegrass guitarist Doc Watson", "question_index": 24, "text": "Yeah, I see what you mean.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1160920167", "date": "2023-03-03", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates the centennial of legendary bluegrass guitarist Doc Watson", "question_index": 25, "text": "You know, I think there's always clubs who - not - maybe not many, but there's always some clubs willing to take advantage of a performer. And I would guess that someone who was blind was a more likely target if they didn't have people who were watching out for them. Would you ever have any problems with them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The music, a good audience, I love."}
{"id": "1160920167", "date": "2023-03-03", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates the centennial of legendary bluegrass guitarist Doc Watson", "question_index": 26, "text": "You mentioned your son, Merle. Did you teach him how to play guitar?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But we were in a few places where they treated you like pieces of used equipment. And that was the end of playing there. We just didn't do it again. That's the best thing you can do, you know, is not "}
{"id": "1160920167", "date": "2023-03-03", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates the centennial of legendary bluegrass guitarist Doc Watson", "question_index": 27, "text": "So he never felt that he had to work hard to differentiate his style from your style.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Merle didn't show any interest in the guitar until he was 15. I was on my first concert tour, this little solo concert tour, that spring. And about middle ways of it, Ralph called me and said, Doc"}
{"id": "1160920167", "date": "2023-03-03", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates the centennial of legendary bluegrass guitarist Doc Watson", "question_index": 28, "text": "I've noticed with a lot of musicians that they meet all these people who have memorized their licks, and they have no idea what they played", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, Merle, he - once in a while, he'd asked me for some pointers on a melody to a song or something, but Merle played his very own thing on the guitar. I don't think he even ever asked me how to hold "}
{"id": "1160920167", "date": "2023-03-03", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates the centennial of legendary bluegrass guitarist Doc Watson", "question_index": 29, "text": ". They were just being spontaneous, and everybody else goes and memorizes it. When your son Merle died, was it hard for you to go back on the road afterwards?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, Merle, he - once in a while, he'd asked me for some pointers on a melody to a song or something, but Merle played his very own thing on the guitar. I don't think he even ever asked me how to hold "}
{"id": "1160920167", "date": "2023-03-03", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates the centennial of legendary bluegrass guitarist Doc Watson", "question_index": 30, "text": "But I guess that dream kind of gave you permission, in a way, to do it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If you'll pardon a little intimacy here, I'll tell you something that happened or I wouldn't have. Between the time he was killed and his funeral, I dreamed I was in a dark desert. And it was so hot, "}
{"id": "1160920167", "date": "2023-03-03", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates the centennial of legendary bluegrass guitarist Doc Watson", "question_index": 31, "text": "You know, we've been - I've been using the word virtuoso today. And I would guess that one of the problems of being a virtuoso is that people want to hear you play fast all the time, to hear you really, you know, do the most difficult stuff that you can do.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're paying tribute to folk guitarist and singer Doc Watson, who was born 100 years ago today. Let's get back to Terry's 1988 interview with him."}
{"id": "1160920167", "date": "2023-03-03", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates the centennial of legendary bluegrass guitarist Doc Watson", "question_index": 32, "text": "What do you mean by putting you on a pedestal?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah, a lot of people do get into that. But usually, if you have a big audience, you can't really take requests from the - when you're on stage. So you just program your set, and you season it w"}
{"id": "1160920167", "date": "2023-03-03", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates the centennial of legendary bluegrass guitarist Doc Watson", "question_index": 33, "text": "Can I ask you a question that I hope you don't mind me asking? And if you do, don't answer it. A lot of performers who are blind wear dark glasses when they perform. And that's something you've never done.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they act like you're a god or something, you know? Lord, I'm just people like everybody else. I do play the guitar, but I had to work awful hard at it to learn what I know."}
{"id": "1160920167", "date": "2023-03-03", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates the centennial of legendary bluegrass guitarist Doc Watson", "question_index": 34, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know why. I always hated - used to - I had a good bit of light perception. Doesn't bother me now because most of it's gone - but the reflection off sunglasses, you know, how it'll come in on t"}
{"id": "1160920167", "date": "2023-03-03", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates the centennial of legendary bluegrass guitarist Doc Watson", "question_index": 35, "text": "One last thing. You know, there's a really nice recording from the early '60s of you and your wife singing together. Does she still sing? Do you ever sing together?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No particular reason except what I told you."}
{"id": "1160920167", "date": "2023-03-03", "guest": "Doc Watson", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates the centennial of legendary bluegrass guitarist Doc Watson", "question_index": 36, "text": "Yeah, I can understand. But - oh, I regret we're out of time. I want to thank you so much for coming, for talking with us about music. And thank you very much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She doesn't sing anymore or play anymore. The tragedy of losing Merle, Terry, has just about undone her. She does the the office work there at home. But she's not Rosa Lee anymore. Bless her little he"}
{"id": "1161620428", "date": "2023-03-07", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today, as Jimmy Carter spends his remaining time at home under hospice care after a series of hospitalizations, we look back on his life and listen to excerpts of the interviews I recorded with him over the years. At the age of 98, he's the oldest living president in American history. Peter Baker in The New York Times wrote this summary of Carter's public life. Quote, \"Mr. Carter was a political sensation in his day, a new-generation Democrat who, after a single term as governor of Georgia, shocked the political world by beating a host of better known rivals to capture his party's presidential nomination in 1976 and then ousting the incumbent Republican president, Gerald Ford, in the fall. Over the course of four years in office, he sought to restore trust in government following the Vietnam War and the Watergate scandal, ushering in reforms that were meant to transform politics. He negotiated the landmark Camp David Accords, making peace between Israel and Egypt, an agreement that remains the foundation of Middle East relations, but a sour economy and a 444-day hostage crisis in Iran in which 52 American diplomats were held captive undercut his public support, and he lost his bid for re-election to former Governor Ronald Reagan of California in 1980. He spent his post-presidency, however, on a series of philanthropic causes around the world, like building houses for the poor, combating Guinea worm, a parasitic tropical disease, promoting human rights in places of repression, monitoring elections and seeking to end conflicts. His work as a former president in many ways came to eclipse his time in the White House, eventually earning him the Nobel Peace Prize,\" unquote. Let's begin with the interview I recorded with Carter in 1993 after the publication of his memoir \"Turning Point,\" about his first campaign when he won a seat in the Georgia State Senate. That was in 1962, the year he decided to enter politics.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1161620428", "date": "2023-03-07", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews", "question_index": 1, "text": "Well, you say you found blatant voting abuse. What's the worst example of voting abuse that you faced during that first campaign of yours?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had come home from the Navy, having been 11 years a full-time naval officer, a submarine officer, started a small business and had never run for elective office. I was a chairman of the Sumter"}
{"id": "1161620428", "date": "2023-03-07", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews", "question_index": 2, "text": "Well, how did you win? How did you get your fair count?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was ahead in the election going into this little tiny county on the Chattahoochee River, just across the river from Alabama. There was a political boss in the county named Joe Hurst. He was ch"}
{"id": "1161620428", "date": "2023-03-07", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think a lot of publicity had accrued. I couldn't get any published at all at first. The local newspapers, even in Columbus, Georgia, which is a fairly good-sized town, were kind of in bed with"}
{"id": "1161620428", "date": "2023-03-07", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews", "question_index": 4, "text": "Interesting cutoff point.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that was..."}
{"id": "1161620428", "date": "2023-03-07", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews", "question_index": 5, "text": "Jimmy Carter, before we go any further, I'm going to ask you for a little lesson in etiquette. Do I call you President Carter, Mr. President, our former President Jimmy Carter - what is the appropriate etiquette when you're talking to a former president of the United States?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, but there was a very interesting debate about it, too. People maintained that even though, say, a husband died, there was a certain period of time after his death when the wife and children coul"}
{"id": "1161620428", "date": "2023-03-07", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, one of the nice things about our country is you can call me anything you want to."}
{"id": "1161620428", "date": "2023-03-07", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews", "question_index": 7, "text": "Now, let me ask you, you've been devoting your post-presidential career to monitoring elections around the world, conflict negotiation around the world, human rights around the world. You also have a project in Atlanta to help empower the homeless and the poor. When you left office, what did you see ahead? What did you think you would do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Jimmy suits me OK. There is a custom in our nation that if you have been a governor or ambassador or a judge or president, then you can still retain the title. So if you want to call me President, you"}
{"id": "1161620428", "date": "2023-03-07", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews", "question_index": 8, "text": "Was there a moment of revelation when you started - when it started to occur to you the role that you could take in this nation and in the world as a past president of the United States?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't know. You know, I didn't anticipate being retired four years early. Fairly quickly, I decided to teach, and I've been a so-called distinguished professor at Emory University. Now this is my 1"}
{"id": "1161620428", "date": "2023-03-07", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews", "question_index": 9, "text": "Jimmy Carter, recorded in 1993 after the publication of his memoir \"Turning Point.\" Last month, he announced that he would be spending his final days at home under hospice care. We'll hear more of my interview with Jimmy Carter after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, in a way there was. I didn't anticipate or understand at all then the tremendous crying out around the world for someone that has been president of the United States to help with issues. Let me "}
{"id": "1161620428", "date": "2023-03-07", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 1993 interview with Jimmy Carter, one of several conversations we're featuring with him today. When we spoke in '93, Carter had just published his memoir \"Turning Point.\" He was elected president in 1976. I asked him about the high points and the low points of his inauguration day.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, in a way there was. I didn't anticipate or understand at all then the tremendous crying out around the world for someone that has been president of the United States to help with issues. Let me "}
{"id": "1161620428", "date": "2023-03-07", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't remember any low points. The high point, obviously, was assuming the role of a president of the greatest nation on Earth and trying to keep a secret we had planned a few days ahead of ti"}
{"id": "1161620428", "date": "2023-03-07", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews", "question_index": 12, "text": "What was the most disorienting part of your first day and night in the White House?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So she took the wind out of my sails. That's one of the things I remember about Inauguration Day."}
{"id": "1161620428", "date": "2023-03-07", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews", "question_index": 13, "text": "What about during the hostage crisis? Was there ever a point where you wished that you weren't president, where you wished that you didn't have this terrible burden on your shoulders?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, the aura of the White House and the humility that you feel occupying the same quarters as those great men was overwhelming. Also, what do you do the next day? You know, I still - I had prett"}
{"id": "1161620428", "date": "2023-03-07", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews", "question_index": 14, "text": "Yeah. You told us a little bit about what your Inauguration Day was like. Let's skip ahead to the inauguration of your successor, Ronald Reagan. What were you feeling that day as you realized that the hostages were going to be released on his watch, not on yours?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, about 2 o'clock in the morning in April when we tried the rescue operation and it - and we couldn't succeed, that was perhaps the high point of despair in my presidency. And I knew tha"}
{"id": "1161620428", "date": "2023-03-07", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews", "question_index": 15, "text": "Even though it wasn't on your watch.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I didn't realize that. I had not been to bed for three days and had negotiated in the most meticulous detail the release of the hostages. Everything was all agreed, and the hostages were in the "}
{"id": "1161620428", "date": "2023-03-07", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews", "question_index": 16, "text": "Jimmy Carter, recorded in 1993. After a short break, we'll hear excerpts from other interviews I recorded with Carter in which he talked about his work as a mediator, negotiating an end to wars and ethnic violence, his deep religious faith and his insistence on keeping church and state separate when he was president and his reflections on getting older. As I record this, he is at home under hospice care. We'll end the first half of our program with Aretha Franklin singing at Carter's inaugural gala in 1977. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, to me, I didn't even think about it. But obviously that became the major story among the news media, that it happened about 20 minutes after I was no longer president. To me, that was insignific"}
{"id": "1161620428", "date": "2023-03-07", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews", "question_index": 17, "text": "Let me ask you a question that I'm sure a lot of people have wondered about. You have such a strong human rights record. What is it like for you to sit opposite someone like Karadzic, knowing the war crimes that he's guilty of? Do you have to enter negotiations with someone who was a tyrant in a fairly nonjudgmental way and be as cordial and open as you possibly can?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) God bless America, land that I love. Stand beside her and guide her through the night from the light from above. From the mountains to the prairies to the ocean white with foam, God bless Am"}
{"id": "1161620428", "date": "2023-03-07", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews", "question_index": 18, "text": "If you were able to turn back the clock and have the knowledge and the experience as an international mediator that you have now, would you have handled the hostage negotiations with Iran any differently?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm cordial and open. The only thing I have to offer is my own integrity and an element of objectivity. I don't have any ax to grind. My ax is - to grind is to try to bring peace and an end to h"}
{"id": "1161620428", "date": "2023-03-07", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews", "question_index": 19, "text": "That was an excerpt of my 1995 interview with Jimmy Carter. The following year, I spoke with him about his memoir, \"Living Faith.\" As a Southern Baptist, he was considered a progressive evangelical. I asked him about how he approached his faith in the years following his presidency.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I tried. You know, through every possible means, official and unofficial means, I tried to negotiate with or to communicate with the Ayatollah Khomeini. But he issued orders in his autocratic or -"}
{"id": "1161620428", "date": "2023-03-07", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews", "question_index": 20, "text": "That's an interesting way to look at it, though, that you took an oath before God to actually serve the country. And so you felt that you had it straight with your religion, that you were in this office to serve the country. And it wasn't about your personal religious convictions when it came down to certain issues. It was about what you thought was best for the country or in the majority interest.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I've got more time now to devote to my church and my duties as a Christian in a nonpolitical fashion. I just don't have any ambitions or interest in ever seeking another public office. And the C"}
{"id": "1161620428", "date": "2023-03-07", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews", "question_index": 21, "text": "While you were in the White House and while you were campaigning for president, did you feel that a lot of Americans misunderstood or misinterpreted what it meant to you to be born again?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Two or three aspects - one is that I believe in the separation of church and state, so I was very careful not to have religious services in the White House or to have religious meetings in the White H"}
{"id": "1161620428", "date": "2023-03-07", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews", "question_index": 22, "text": "We're listening to my 1996 interview with Jimmy Carter. We'll hear more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that was obvious to me because the No. 1 news story of the entire 1976 campaign was an interview that I gave with Playboy magazine. And all I did was quote part of the Sermon on the Mount. And i"}
{"id": "1161620428", "date": "2023-03-07", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with Jimmy Carter in 1996 after the publication of his memoir, \"Living Faith.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that was obvious to me because the No. 1 news story of the entire 1976 campaign was an interview that I gave with Playboy magazine. And all I did was quote part of the Sermon on the Mount. And i"}
{"id": "1161620428", "date": "2023-03-07", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews", "question_index": 24, "text": "How did you approach your prayer life in the White House? You say in your book that other presidents have brought in Billy Graham to organize, you know, worship for them, but you didn't want to do that in the White House. You thought it was a - it violated your sense of separation of church and state. So what did you do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that was obvious to me because the No. 1 news story of the entire 1976 campaign was an interview that I gave with Playboy magazine. And all I did was quote part of the Sermon on the Mount. And i"}
{"id": "1161620428", "date": "2023-03-07", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews", "question_index": 25, "text": "What was your sense of prayer when you were a child, and how has your sense of prayer changed as an adult?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I worshipped as I would if I had not been in public life at all. I went to Sunday services at the First Baptist Church in Washington, which was the nearest Baptist church to the White House. Mos"}
{"id": "1161620428", "date": "2023-03-07", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews", "question_index": 26, "text": "Tell me if this is too personal, OK? What were the times in your life that you thought God betrayed you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when I was a child, say, when I reached the age of 10 or teenage life, I had some very serious doubts about what I heard in church, what I heard in Sunday school, what I heard my own father teac"}
{"id": "1161620428", "date": "2023-03-07", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews", "question_index": 27, "text": "The interview with Jimmy Carter we just heard was recorded in 1996 after the publication of his memoir \"Living Faith.\" After a break, we'll hear his reflections on aging recorded after the publication of his memoir \"The Virtues Of Aging.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one of the most distressing times was in 1966. I had been a state senator two terms. I thought, after prayer, that I should run for governor of Georgia. I mounted a massive campaign all over the"}
{"id": "1161620428", "date": "2023-03-07", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews", "question_index": 28, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Today, we've been looking back on the life of Jimmy Carter through a series of FRESH AIR interviews with him. He's now spending his remaining time at home under hospice care. We'll end today's show with our 1998 interview recorded after the publication of his memoir \"The Virtues Of Aging.\" Carter was 56 when he left the White House in 1981 and was hardly ready to retire. He had, perhaps, the most productive post-presidency in American history. In 1998, after the publication of his book \"The Virtues Of Aging,\" I spoke with him about getting older. He was in his mid-70s at the time. After his presidency, he and Rosalynn returned home to Plains, Ga., and faced something many retired couples face, more time home together - perhaps too much time. He and Rosalynn learned they needed to give each other a lot of private space, to keep separate, except for times that they'd scheduled to be together. I asked him how they first realized that too much time together was the source of tension.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one of the most distressing times was in 1966. I had been a state senator two terms. I thought, after prayer, that I should run for governor of Georgia. I mounted a massive campaign all over the"}
{"id": "1161620428", "date": "2023-03-07", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews", "question_index": 29, "text": "Jimmy Carter is my guest. His new book is called \"The Virtues Of Aging.\" You say one thing we must do nowadays is prepare for long, drawn-out illnesses near the end...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was after I left the White House that we found that we would be confronting each other in the same house all day long and not have a job outside. Although, we do a lot of things now outside t"}
{"id": "1161620428", "date": "2023-03-07", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews", "question_index": 30, "text": "...Of life now that there's the medical technology to sustain us through long, chronic illnesses. I'm wondering if you have any thoughts about living wills or were you - where, if any place, you'd want to draw the line if you had a debilitating chronic illness.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1161620428", "date": "2023-03-07", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews", "question_index": 31, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. As a matter of fact, I wrote about that in the book. My father, my mother, my - both my sisters and my brother all died from the same illness, and that is cancer. They all smoked cigarettes, and "}
{"id": "1161620428", "date": "2023-03-07", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews", "question_index": 32, "text": "You said that one of the most interesting and gratifying responsibilities at your age is to decide what to do with accumulated wealth and possessions. And you and Rosalynn are planning to leave a substantial portion of your estate to the Carter Center. And I'm wondering how you've both decided what's the right thing to do, you know, by your country and by your children - you know, how much to give to the Carter Center, how much to leave for your children. I think that's - you know, for people who are lucky enough to be in that position, it's a difficult question.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So you can see that death in our family has not been a sordid, morbid, psychologically wrenching experience. We all know we're going to pass on some time, and we've tried to approach it in a reasonabl"}
{"id": "1161620428", "date": "2023-03-07", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews", "question_index": 33, "text": "Well, I want to thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In my book, I give some simple advice on what everybody should do. One fact that we can't avoid is that we have - all of us in the United States have a major heir, the same one, and that's the U.S. go"}
{"id": "1161620428", "date": "2023-03-07", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews", "question_index": 34, "text": "The interview we just heard with Jimmy Carter was recorded in 1998. In February, after a series of hospitalizations, he decided to spend his remaining time at home in hospice care. We wish him comfort and peace. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll talk about the medical use of electricity, how researchers are manipulating the natural electricity in our bodies in an attempt to cure or alleviate the symptoms of various diseases including cancer. Electric signals are already being used in pacemakers and implants for Parkinson's disease. My guest will be science writer Sally Adee, author of \"We Are Electric.\" I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've really enjoyed it. Thank you. You had some good questions."}
{"id": "1161620428", "date": "2023-03-07", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews", "question_index": 35, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Today's edition was produced by Roberta Shorrock, who also directed the show. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley, Susan Nyakundi and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. I am Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've really enjoyed it. Thank you. You had some good questions."}
{"id": "1161897128", "date": "2023-03-08", "guest": "Sally Adee", "title": "How researchers are trying to harness the electricity in the human body", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. One of the frontiers of medicine involves manipulating the naturally occurring electrical fields in our bodies. Each of the 40 trillion cells in your body is like its own little battery with its own little voltage, writes my guest, Sally Adee. Her new book, \"We Are Electric,\" is about how medical and tech researchers are experimenting with possible ways to manipulate the body's electrical fields to treat or cure diseases and conditions, including depression, wounds, broken bones, cancer and paralysis. Probably the best-known already existing example of electric medicine is the pacemaker to keep the heart beating at an appropriate pace. Tiny, remote-controlled brain implants are being used to treat the symptoms of Parkinson's disease. Electric medicine can take the form of implants, wearable devices, shocks or electrical drugs. The key to the future of electric medicine is mapping the body's electrical signals so that we know what to fix when something goes wrong. Sally Adee is a science and tech writer and the former features editor at the New Scientist. Sally Adee, welcome to FRESH AIR. This is really fascinating stuff. I learned so much about my body. So let's start with something personal. You participated in a military experiment. You tried it out. And the goal was to see whether sending an electrical current through a specific part of the brain would increase alertness and concentration. So basically, you were given what sounds like a video game where you had to, like, you know, shoot the enemy 'cause this is a military training exercise. So the goal was to see, you know, before and after - before the electrical current how you did and if your accuracy as a marksman, as a shooter was improved after this electrical current to sharpen your focus. So just describe the game a little bit.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1161897128", "date": "2023-03-08", "guest": "Sally Adee", "title": "How researchers are trying to harness the electricity in the human body", "question_index": 1, "text": "Wait, the experience stayed with you or the change in how your mind works changed - stayed with you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. So this is called DARWARS Ambush. And I guess it was a training simulation so that you can learn, you know, marksmanship. They basically said that a little tiny bit of electrical current applied"}
{"id": "1161897128", "date": "2023-03-08", "guest": "Sally Adee", "title": "How researchers are trying to harness the electricity in the human body", "question_index": 2, "text": "So is the military actually using these devices now for training people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A little bit of column A, a little bit of column B, because the experience, like, the memory of it, was profound 'cause it wasn't just that experience. Like, then for the rest of the day, everything j"}
{"id": "1161897128", "date": "2023-03-08", "guest": "Sally Adee", "title": "How researchers are trying to harness the electricity in the human body", "question_index": 3, "text": "So where do we stand now with it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Do you know what? I have no idea, to be honest. I don't know - I'm not sure that they would because as I found out afterwards, the article that I wrote about this was more about electrical ways of ind"}
{"id": "1161897128", "date": "2023-03-08", "guest": "Sally Adee", "title": "How researchers are trying to harness the electricity in the human body", "question_index": 4, "text": "So I started off being, like, really, really excited about electric medicine, and now I'm discouraged because you told me that this maybe doesn't work, that the study that you were examining wasn't really big enough to give a really accurate appraisal of whether transcranial...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so I started to get really nervous. So OK, when you go back, the problem with a lot of the studies that had been done is that they were almost similar to what I did, where you have a really low nu"}
{"id": "1161897128", "date": "2023-03-08", "guest": "Sally Adee", "title": "How researchers are trying to harness the electricity in the human body", "question_index": 5, "text": "There you go - whether it really works or not. So anyways, there's really actually a lot of encouraging things happening in this field.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Direct current stimulation."}
{"id": "1161897128", "date": "2023-03-08", "guest": "Sally Adee", "title": "How researchers are trying to harness the electricity in the human body", "question_index": 6, "text": "So let's lift our spirits and get to some of those. But let's start with a little bit of explanation first. It's hard for me to fathom that there's so much electricity running through my body that it can be manipulated for medical reasons. So you say every one of our 40 trillion cells is its own little battery with its own little voltage. What is the function of all this electricity? How does the brain use it to communicate to the rest of the body? And what other functions does the electricity serve?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. No. I mean, that's exactly..."}
{"id": "1161897128", "date": "2023-03-08", "guest": "Sally Adee", "title": "How researchers are trying to harness the electricity in the human body", "question_index": 7, "text": "Well, I want to talk with you more about how electricity is being used in medicine. But first, we have to take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is science and tech writer Sally Adee, author of the new book \"We Are Electric.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the brain communicates with the rest of the body, and the rest of the body communicates with the brain via voltage spikes in neurons and muscle cells. So you basically - you have that tiny voltage "}
{"id": "1161897128", "date": "2023-03-08", "guest": "Sally Adee", "title": "How researchers are trying to harness the electricity in the human body", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with science and tech writer Sally Adee, author of the new book \"We Are Electric,\" about a new frontier in medicine, treating diseases by manipulating our bodies' naturally occurring electric signals. Let's talk a little bit about cancer because I found this really fascinating. A lot of cancer research is focusing on genetics. What are the genetic precursors and genetic changes in cancerous cells, and how can we attack cancer by understanding more of the genetics? But there's an alternate way of looking at it, which is looking at the electrical system in the body. And you say when healthy cells turn cancerous, their electrical signaling changes radically. How does it change?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the brain communicates with the rest of the body, and the rest of the body communicates with the brain via voltage spikes in neurons and muscle cells. So you basically - you have that tiny voltage "}
{"id": "1161897128", "date": "2023-03-08", "guest": "Sally Adee", "title": "How researchers are trying to harness the electricity in the human body", "question_index": 9, "text": "So what is an ion channel?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So this is research that was done by Mustafa Djamgoz at Imperial College in the - in London in the 1990s. He found that when you look at cancer cells under an oscilloscope, you can see that the"}
{"id": "1161897128", "date": "2023-03-08", "guest": "Sally Adee", "title": "How researchers are trying to harness the electricity in the human body", "question_index": 10, "text": "And that's where cancer comes in. The charge - the voltage or whatever of the cancer cells are different...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "An ion channel is a pore in the cell membrane that decides which ion gets to come into the cell and which ion doesn't get to come into the cell. So you have different ion channels for different ions. "}
{"id": "1161897128", "date": "2023-03-08", "guest": "Sally Adee", "title": "How researchers are trying to harness the electricity in the human body", "question_index": 11, "text": "...Than the - than...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1161897128", "date": "2023-03-08", "guest": "Sally Adee", "title": "How researchers are trying to harness the electricity in the human body", "question_index": 12, "text": "...Healthy cells.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1161897128", "date": "2023-03-08", "guest": "Sally Adee", "title": "How researchers are trying to harness the electricity in the human body", "question_index": 13, "text": "So tell us more about how this translates to treating cancer. Would they be using, like, channel blockers to block certain, you know, like, calcium or sodium from entering...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So once a healthy cell sort of abandons ship and decides that it's going to just be, like, a ravenous, invasive cancer cell, its voltage changes radically. And what you can do with an ion channel drug"}
{"id": "1161897128", "date": "2023-03-08", "guest": "Sally Adee", "title": "How researchers are trying to harness the electricity in the human body", "question_index": 14, "text": "...The cells?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1161897128", "date": "2023-03-08", "guest": "Sally Adee", "title": "How researchers are trying to harness the electricity in the human body", "question_index": 15, "text": "That sounds very exciting. So hopefully, scientists will figure out a way to harness what you're talking about and use it to treat cancer. So let's move on to something that is going to be something very few people know about, which is that there are experiments now about how electric medicine can be used to help heal wounds.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so ion channel blocking drugs, it looks like it might be possible to block a certain particular kind of ion channel that forms on cells once they've become cancerous. So many scientists think th"}
{"id": "1161897128", "date": "2023-03-08", "guest": "Sally Adee", "title": "How researchers are trying to harness the electricity in the human body", "question_index": 16, "text": "So what is the principle behind that? Does wounded tissue emit a different electrical signal than healthy tissue?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1161897128", "date": "2023-03-08", "guest": "Sally Adee", "title": "How researchers are trying to harness the electricity in the human body", "question_index": 17, "text": "So what are the implications for electric medicine in treating wounds?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes, that's exactly right. When you cut yourself, the - all the ions in the skin, they just flow out. It's like a short circuit - you know, everything - it's called the wound current. And the wou"}
{"id": "1161897128", "date": "2023-03-08", "guest": "Sally Adee", "title": "How researchers are trying to harness the electricity in the human body", "question_index": 18, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is science and tech writer Sally Adee, author of the new book, \"We Are Electric.\" We'll be back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, if you could figure out how to amplify this wound current or manipulate it in some way, you could actually speed up wound healing in all kinds of wounds because all tissues have this, it's not j"}
{"id": "1161897128", "date": "2023-03-08", "guest": "Sally Adee", "title": "How researchers are trying to harness the electricity in the human body", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with science and tech writer Sally Adee, author of the new book \"We Are Electric.\" It's about a new frontier in medicine, treating diseases and conditions with electricity. It's based on understanding the body's natural electricity and then manipulating it. We know that genetic irregularities can make us vulnerable to cancers and other disease. Electric medicine is based on understanding what's gone wrong with the body's electrical system. Scientists are trying to understand systems, like mapping the genome so we understand more about genetics and how to target certain diseases when we're treating them. And then there's also the microbiome, which is understanding all the different good and bad organisms in our gut and how we can treat digestive problems by understanding those organisms and trying to maintain a healthy balance of them instead of an unhealthy system in the microbiome. Similarly, scientists working with electric medicine are trying to understand what's being called the electrome. What is the electrome, and why does that hold the key to electric medicine?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, if you could figure out how to amplify this wound current or manipulate it in some way, you could actually speed up wound healing in all kinds of wounds because all tissues have this, it's not j"}
{"id": "1161897128", "date": "2023-03-08", "guest": "Sally Adee", "title": "How researchers are trying to harness the electricity in the human body", "question_index": 20, "text": "So when we talk about how, you know, babies are formed in the womb to look like babies with, you know, eyes and nose and all that, we usually talk about stem cells, but this is a different way of looking at it. This is about looking at it through an electrical perspective. So what's the difference?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the electrome is a term that's been gradually bubbling up in bioelectricity research over the past, I think, seven years or so. And the electrome refers to all the electrical dimensions and propert"}
{"id": "1161897128", "date": "2023-03-08", "guest": "Sally Adee", "title": "How researchers are trying to harness the electricity in the human body", "question_index": 21, "text": "I don't know if this is part of the same experiment or not, but this fascinated me. There was an experiment in which, through some kind of electrical stimulation or interference, a frog grew eyes in various places on the body where eyes...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So when a fertilized egg sort of, you know, differentiates into all the cells that it's going to become, the big question is, how does it know, you know, how to form itself into, like, a regulation-is"}
{"id": "1161897128", "date": "2023-03-08", "guest": "Sally Adee", "title": "How researchers are trying to harness the electricity in the human body", "question_index": 22, "text": "...Don't belong. Tell us about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1161897128", "date": "2023-03-08", "guest": "Sally Adee", "title": "How researchers are trying to harness the electricity in the human body", "question_index": 23, "text": "Now, on a practical level, this applies to regeneration medicine. What is regeneration medicine?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So the next thing they did after they saw this ghostly pre-pattern, they were like, well, you know, what happens if we mess with just the ability for this frog embryo to have the electric patter"}
{"id": "1161897128", "date": "2023-03-08", "guest": "Sally Adee", "title": "How researchers are trying to harness the electricity in the human body", "question_index": 24, "text": "Well, it sounds remarkable.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Well, regenerative medicine is sort of an umbrella term that brings in, you know, stem cells, prosthetics and, you know, all these things that are trying to replace what has been lost in t"}
{"id": "1161897128", "date": "2023-03-08", "guest": "Sally Adee", "title": "How researchers are trying to harness the electricity in the human body", "question_index": 25, "text": "Is there anything that you're most excited about right now, that you think has the most promise, based on what you've studied?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, it does. It sounds science fiction, but, you know, Michael Levin at Tufts University - he likes to say, I think that at the end of the day, every problem that we have, whether it's healing"}
{"id": "1161897128", "date": "2023-03-08", "guest": "Sally Adee", "title": "How researchers are trying to harness the electricity in the human body", "question_index": 26, "text": "Sally Adee, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I think it's not any one particular thing, although I am excited about a lot of stuff, especially the stuff around wound healing. But I think it's more of like a sort of generalized excitement, rig"}
{"id": "1161897128", "date": "2023-03-08", "guest": "Sally Adee", "title": "How researchers are trying to harness the electricity in the human body", "question_index": 27, "text": "Sally Adee is the author of the new book \"We Are Electric.\" After we take a short break, jazz critic Kevin Whitehead will have an appreciation of Wayne Shorter, who died March 2. And John Powers will tell us why he's excited about the new film \"Return To Seoul.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me."}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I am Terry Gross. Living through the early years of the AIDS epidemic in the 1980s is the subject of Thomas Mallon's diaries that were recently excerpted in The New Yorker. He was in his 30s then, living in Manhattan, watching his boyfriend, friends and fellow churchgoers get sick and die, leaving Mallon in a constant state of anxiety over if and when he'd get the death sentence. Mallon is best-known for his historical novels. His new one, \"Up With The Sun,\" ends where the journal excerpts begin. The novel, which our book critic, Maureen Corrigan, calls dazzling, is based on the life of a pretty obscure actor named Dick Kallman, a closeted gay actor in the '50s and '60s who never quite made it. He was part of Lucille Ball's Desilu Workshop, co-starred in the Broadway musical \"Seventeen,\" starred in a touring production of \"How To Succeed In Business Without Really Trying\" and starred in a short-lived sitcom called \"Hank.\" And his roles dried up. He went into the antiques business with Dolores Gray, who starred in several movie musicals. In 1980, Kallman and his boyfriend were murdered in their Manhattan apartment by robbers, a murder that made the tabloids. An earlier novel by Thomas Mallon, \"Fellow Travelers,\" is about two gay men working for the State Department during the lavender scare, when the anti-communist witch hunt of the 1950s was also a witch hunt for gay people, who were driven out of their jobs. The novel has been adapted into a Showtime series scheduled to premiere later this year. Mallon has also written novels about Watergate, Nixon and the couple who shared Lincoln's box seats at the Ford Theater the night he was assassinated. Thomas Mallon, welcome to FRESH AIR. You're such a good writer.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 1, "text": "Why did you want to write about this actor Dick Kallman? I certainly had never heard of him before. I imagine most of the people in our audience have never heard of him either.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks."}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 2, "text": "It was called \"Hank,\" by the way...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I used to watch his sitcom in 1965-66, which was the one year it was on. I was 13 years old at the time, and I desperately wanted to go to college. And..."}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 3, "text": "...For anyone who wants to know. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 4, "text": "By the way, \"Hank\" had a theme song. The sitcom \"Hank\" had a theme song with a lyric written by Johnny Mercer. I mean, that's pretty classy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The conceit was that he played a college drop-in. He didn't have the money for tuition, but he was desperate to get an education. And so he would disguise himself as other students. And he was always "}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 5, "text": "Yeah. Could you sing the lyric?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was about the only really distinguished thing about the program."}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 6, "text": "I think people might have caught that first line of the lyric, he's up with the sun. That's where the title of your novel, \"Up With the Sun,\" comes from.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The first line of it is (singing) he's up with the sun, and he's got the college winging as he goes about another swinging day. And the conceit was that he was constantly doing odd jobs to earn money."}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yeah. So what kind of research did you do about what it meant to be gay and closeted on Broadway and in Hollywood? You know, one of the obvious differences is, like, on Broadway, so many men traditionally, you know, have been gay including some of the best, like, songwriters who ever wrote for Broadway musicals. In Hollywood, I think there was a big gay, closeted population, but probably not as big as on Broadway.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, another thing that closeted actors on Broadway and also in Hollywood had to deal with is the gossip columnists 'cause...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I talked to people who had known Kallman and went through any number of hundreds and hundreds of clippings and reviews and everything. And, you know, it was the time when - later in th"}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 9, "text": "They could out you. I don't know if this is a real quote from Earl Wilson, who was a gossip columnist at The New York Post at the time. But in one of his columns, he wrote, which restaurant chain has been purging its New York branches of swishes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 10, "text": "That's for real.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's for real. That's for real."}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 11, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then, we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Thomas Mallon. His new novel, \"Up With The Sun,\" is based on the life of Dick Kallman a little-remembered closeted gay actor in the 1950s and '60s. The New Yorker recently published excerpts of his AIDS diaries from the 1980s. We'll talk about that soon. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And there would be these obliquely phrased items about people. The gossip columnist had a tremendously hard edge. I remember - I was a great reader of the newspaper from the time I was about 7 y"}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Thomas Mallon. His new novel, \"Up With The Sun,\" is based on the life of Dick Kallman, a little-remembered closeted gay actor in the 1950s and '60s. The New Yorker recently published excerpts of the journal Mallon kept in the 1980s about living through the AIDS epidemic, watching his friends die, and wondering if he'd get a death sentence, too. The journal was published under the title \"Finding My Way - And Staying Alive - During The AIDS Crisis: A Diary Of 1980s Manhattan.\" Thomas Mallon, your novel \"Up With The Sun\" ends at about the same time that your diary excerpts recently published in The New Yorker begins. And those are your diaries - excerpts of your diaries during the AIDS epidemic, the very early days of it, when you were living in Manhattan and so many people you knew had AIDS and were dying or had already died. So let's talk about those diaries. You were in your 30s in the 1980s when AIDS was first identified and then became an epidemic. Who were you then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And there would be these obliquely phrased items about people. The gossip columnist had a tremendously hard edge. I remember - I was a great reader of the newspaper from the time I was about 7 y"}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 13, "text": "What was it like rereading your diaries to edit them and then publish them? - because, like, you write historical novels and what was the present to you when you were writing those journals, that's now the past. That's now history. That's an artifact of a turning point in history. So what was it like seeing your life as history?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was an academic who really wanted to be a writer. I taught at Vassar for about a dozen years. I started there in my late 20s. And while I was still there, I moved to New York. I couldn't take living"}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 14, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Strange. It provoked feelings of embarrassment - one's diaries always do that if they have any kind of, I think, authenticity to them - tremendous feelings of gratitude that I had never gotten sick an"}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 15, "text": "You know, just a little stray sentence in those diaries was about having a great view of Manhattan when you dined one day at Windows on the World, which was the restaurant on top of the World Trade Center.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Did not know what it meant yet. And when I reread them after so many years, what struck me immediately was a kind of manic quality to them. There are entries where I am just absolutely slap-happy. "}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 16, "text": "And a few years later, that would be totally demolished in the terrorist attack on 9/11. What was it like for you to reread that sentence and realize this, like, little factoid tucked away in your journal was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 17, "text": "...Part of this...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Certain things..."}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 18, "text": "...Like, national nightmare?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 19, "text": "Yeah. During the period that your AIDS diaries cover, the period published in The New Yorker, your boyfriend at the time died of AIDS early in the epidemic. He was 31. You hadn't been seeing each other that long. Were you close enough where you felt like you were the one to take care of him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, these little things that jump out at you and that, you know, you never expected to see. And, of course, at the time you're writing it, you don't think that you could ever reread this and have it "}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 20, "text": "Did you visit him in the hospital? And were you afraid that if you did, you would contract AIDS because, as you said, people didn't know yet how it was spread?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I mean, I wouldn't say that. But it was a short and very rocky romance. And it, you know, had all of the difficulties that any romance can encounter. But at the end, when he was very sick througho"}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 21, "text": "Yeah, you were terrified to have the test.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't remember that fear in the hospital. I remember the fear of - a fear that lasted for years - that I would contract it simply because of the things we had done together before he was sick. But t"}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 22, "text": "And what changed your mind in 1991 when you got tested?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was very frightened to have the test. I did not have the test until 1991. At that point, there was really nothing they could do for you. So what was the point of knowing? You already knew how you co"}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 23, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Thomas Mallon. Excerpts of his journals from the 1980s during the AIDS epidemic were recently published in The New Yorker. His new novel is called \"Up With The Sun.\" We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was partnered by that point. And I felt that the likelihood that I was sick was pretty small by that point. It would have manifested itself already in one way or another. So I was, you know, a"}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Thomas Mallon. His new novel, \"Up With The Sun,\" is based on the life of Dick Kallman, a little-remembered closeted gay actor in the 1950s and '60s. The New Yorker recently published excerpts of the journal he kept in the 1980s about living in Manhattan during the early years of the AIDS epidemic, watching his friends die and wondering if he'd get a death sentence, too. When we left off, he was explaining that, for years, he was afraid to get tested, fearing he'd be positive. But in 1991, after he had a partner, he decided to do it, and he tested negative. How did it change your life when you knew that you were negative?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was partnered by that point. And I felt that the likelihood that I was sick was pretty small by that point. It would have manifested itself already in one way or another. So I was, you know, a"}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 25, "text": "So you were so relieved to know that your death was not imminent. You are 71 now. Have your thoughts about aging been affected by how afraid you were that you were going to die in your 30s?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It made me feel that I could keep living and keep enjoying my life. There were so many things I loved about my life. Even during the worst days of the epidemic in New York, when there was nothing to b"}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 26, "text": "Yeah. During the epidemic, when you were so uncertain about whether you would be dead soon or not and you didn't want to take the test to find out whether you tested positive for HIV, did you ever try to be celibate? Or, I mean, like, how afraid were you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it would be impossible for those thoughts and feelings not to have been affected. I am so aware of how lucky I was. And, I mean, I've enjoyed rude good health for almost my whole life. I'd lik"}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 27, "text": "Yeah, right, right, right. You know, you're Catholic, so that brings a natural amount of guilt about sex. You're gay. Add a lot more guilt to that, being Catholic. And then it's the AIDS epidemic. Add a lot of fear and maybe guilt about engaging in any kind of sexual act because, you know, there's so much uncertainty, especially before anyone really knew how to protect against AIDS or how it was spread. Can you talk about the feelings of, like, guilt or fear that you had when engaging in any kind of intimacy with another man?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very unsuccessfully."}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 28, "text": "Let me stop you here for a second because my question had to do with, did you try to be celibate, and we're talking about politics.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think those were always present. They went hand in hand. You thought, well, I know the score. The person I'm with knows the score. And, you know, we'll protect each other, but we can't stop living. "}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 29, "text": "No, no, no, no, no. We're talking about politics now and how your circle of friends was not conservative, how hard it was to be conservative politically, not socially but politically. Did that interfere with your romantic life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Yeah."}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 30, "text": "I want to get back to what you experienced personally in the '80s. You know, you write in your diaries, I always fall for the truly cold, cold people, cold men because I decide their reserve and awkwardness is really bottled-up warmth that they're waiting for me to release, an act for which they'll repay me with extravagant love. I think that is a really common thing, thinking that somebody who's cold or unemotional on the surface is just, like, hiding their sensitivity that's underneath and that once you kind of connect with that sensitivity, they'll open up and be really warm and appreciate that you allowed them to do it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I can remember lots of arguments and debates, certainly. And, I mean, some of them continue to this day. And, you know, being a historical novelist, you get to revisit some of these things. And I "}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 31, "text": "Well, I think it's time to take another break. So let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Thomas Mallon. The New Yorker recently published excerpts of the journal he kept in the 1980s about living through the AIDS epidemic, watching his friends die and wondering if he'd get a death sentence, too. His latest novel is called \"Up With The Sun.\" We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that's one of the passages in the diary that has a certain universality to it. I mean, I think that that's a common thing among homosexuals, among heterosexuals. I think a lot of heterosexual "}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 32, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Thomas Mallon. His latest novel is called \"Up With The Sun.\" His diaries about living through the AIDS epidemic in the 1980s were recently excerpted in The New Yorker, and his novel \"Fellow Travelers\" will soon be adapted into a Showtime series that's expected to premiere sometime later this year. In your journals, you refer - and, again, this is in the 1980s. You refer to the old homosexuality versus the new homosexuality. You, being in your 30s then, would have been part of the new homosexuality. What was the difference to you then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that's one of the passages in the diary that has a certain universality to it. I mean, I think that that's a common thing among homosexuals, among heterosexuals. I think a lot of heterosexual "}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 33, "text": "Since you referred to the old and the new homosexuality, now that you are in your early 70s, do you think you're considered by younger people - by younger gay people to be part of the old homosexuality?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think, you know, and very often at that age, just as at this age, I'm talking through my hat. And, you know, in a diary, you're - every diary entry is a kind of thought experiment. You're trying thi"}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 34, "text": "What do you see as some of the generational differences?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Yeah."}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 35, "text": "At what point in your life did you feel like domesticity was OK? I'm making an assumption here that you live with your longtime partner.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I suppose the most striking one, of course, would be gay marriage, which didn't exist, was not remotely on the horizon, back in the 1980s. And it does exist today. And I think that gay marriage "}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 36, "text": "Because he cooks?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do. And I think it was the night very early on when Bill said to me - because I still lived like a graduate student in this little studio apartment. And I worked - talk about up with the sun, I was "}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 37, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is writer Thomas Mallon, and excerpts of his journals, his AIDS journals from the 1980s, were recently published in The New Yorker. His new novel is called \"Up With The Sun.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He makes a very good home. He meant it literally, you know, in terms of all the things that go into making a comfortable home, all of which he was - is wonderful at. But I think - you know, by that ti"}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 38, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Thomas Mallon. His latest novel, \"Up With The Sun,\" is based on the life of Dick Kallman, a little-remembered closeted gay actor in the 1950s and '60s. The New Yorker recently published excerpts of the journal Mallon kept in the 1980s about living through the AIDS epidemic. In your latest novel, \"Up With The Sun,\" one of the characters says, all my life, I've loved the past as a place that can keep you safe from the present - an inert world, sleeping and finished, that can't push you around, a place that your imagination can make as pretty as the two-dimensional flats on a Broadway set. Is that a sentiment you share? And is that one of the reasons why you write historical fiction?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He makes a very good home. He meant it literally, you know, in terms of all the things that go into making a comfortable home, all of which he was - is wonderful at. But I think - you know, by that ti"}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 39, "text": "Of course, you often write about unsafe parts of the past - you know, writing about having to be closeted if you're an actor in the '50s and '60s - well, having to be closeted kind of if you were anybody", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I think so. I think that's me speaking through Matt, my fictional pianist in \"Up With The Sun.\" I think that's always been a theme in my books. I wrote a novel many years ago called \"Dewey Defeat"}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 40, "text": "back then. In \"Fellow Travelers,\" you were writing about the anti-gay witch hunts of the '50s during the whole McCarthy period, when there were the anti-communist witch hunts. And in a way, like, the past is repeating again in terms of LGBTQ issues. I mean, you've got a lot of people in the Republican Party who want to overturn the legality of gay marriage. You've got these, like, new anti-drag laws. So do you feel like the - that the past is repeating itself in terms of gay rights?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I think so. I think that's me speaking through Matt, my fictional pianist in \"Up With The Sun.\" I think that's always been a theme in my books. I wrote a novel many years ago called \"Dewey Defeat"}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 41, "text": "One of the problems I sometimes have with, like, biopics and, you know, historical movies and historical novels is that you come away from it feeling like you've really learned a lot about the past. At the same time, you don't know what's fiction and what's fact in that piece of work that you've just come away from. How do you deal with that as a writer? Like, what are your thoughts about that as somebody who's actually creating the historical fiction? Like, with Dick Kallman, it didn't - it wasn't really an issue for him because I had no idea who he was. I was just like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think there's any going back. I think we're in a long, ugly moment politically. And I would say to anybody who believes in liberty and who believes in many of the things that I always believed"}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 42, "text": "I just, like, let myself enjoy the book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 43, "text": "Oh, really? That's a strange feeling to have.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I once wrote an essay called \"The Historical Novelist's Burden Of Truth.\" And it is a very tricky business because if you are dealing with real people, you are necessarily going to ascribe to them opi"}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 44, "text": "Thomas Mallon, a pleasure speaking with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Fiction is fiction. I mean, there's a caveat I've applied to the prefaces or afterwards of a number of my historical novels, which is that nouns always trump adjectives, and it's important to remember"}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 45, "text": "Thomas Mallon's new novel is called \"Up With The Sun.\" Excerpts of his AIDS diaries were published in The New Yorker in December. If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, like this week's interviews about why police violence and misconduct so often go unpunished or our episode collecting excerpts of our interviews with Jimmy Carter, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. And just a reminder that you can subscribe to our weekly newsletter for free on our website, freshair.npr.org. You'll find behind-the-scenes stories from our producers, links to the week's interviews and reviews and staff recommendations. I'm always delighted to see it in my email Saturday mornings.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Same here. Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "1162151663", "date": "2023-03-09", "guest": "Thomas Mallon", "title": "Novelist Thomas Mallon looks back on the early years of the AIDS epidemic", "question_index": 46, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham with additional engineering today from Al Banks. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Seth Kelley, Susan Nyakundi and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Same here. Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Adam Sandler and Josh and Benny Safdie, welcome to FRESH AIR. Congratulations on the film and the awards and nominations.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Howard Ratner) I disagree."}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Adam Sandler, you found the voice for this character. This character is a fast talker. He's always trying to convince people or sell people on something. He's just always taking chances. He always says things he can't really back up. And he doesn't stop talking.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 2, "text": "You found the rhythm and you found the music in that character's voice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Can you describe finding the voice and what that voice is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Yeah."}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 4, "text": "The main character, Howard, is a big basketball fan. It's like, he not only bets on it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Totally."}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 5, "text": "But he loves the sport.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 6, "text": "And there's a scene that's almost, like, funny - I don't know whether that's intentional or not - in which he's - it's a very high-pressure situation that he's in. But he's basically watching the game on TV. He's got a lot of money on it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 7, "text": "And he's kind of, like, narrating the game. It's like he's a sportscaster on TV.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 8, "text": "And he's, like, you know, like, doing the game.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 9, "text": "And, Adam Sandler, it's - you're so manic when you're doing it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 10, "text": "And I'm wondering if you did any of that as a kid, like, if you'd watch a game and get so caught up in it, like, you'd be the sportscaster.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Do you make, like, big bets on the games?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's manifest destiny, kind of."}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 12, "text": "I heard, I heard", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, luckily, we have money in the bank, so I don't put the family in jeopardy."}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, luckily, we have money in the bank, so I don't put the family in jeopardy."}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 14, "text": "You, yeah", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No one's nervous except me, for some reason."}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 15, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No one's nervous except me, for some reason."}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 16, "text": "So the character of Howard is Jewish. And a lot of the people in who - in the Diamond District in New York are Jewish. And there's a scene at Howard's family Seder. And his extended family is there. And I think it's perfect that the part of the Seder that you show is the recitation of the plagues - the lice, the pestilence, the hail, blood, frogs, boils, slaying all the firstborn. This is God's punishment of the Egyptians who were enslaving the Jews and refusing to acknowledge God. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yes. And - but I figured...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's always the biggest hit at the table, isn't it?"}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 18, "text": "Since everything is going wrong for the character, the plague seems to be, like, the perfect part of the Seder, to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, dying."}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 19, "text": "...To emphasize. But I'd like you to all share with us what Seders were like in your family when you were growing up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. Exactly."}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is when everybody passes out from having eaten too much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But the recline after the meal is also a very important part of the holiday."}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 21, "text": "So, Adam Sandler, you've done a lot of comedy about being Jewish. What did being Jewish mean in your family when you were growing up?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. This weekend, Adam Sandler will receive the Mark Twain Prize for American Humor at the Kennedy Center. Let's get back to Terry's 2019 interview with Sandler, who starred in the film"}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 22, "text": "When you were young, you moved to New Hampshire...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was definitely a big part of us. And, you know, we went to temple, you know, not every Friday. It happened once or twice a month. My mother was very heavily involved in the temple and helping out a"}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 23, "text": "...And went to a school where there were very few Jews. I think there were, like, two Jews in your class or something.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 24, "text": "So did that make you more conscious of being Jewish? And were you seen...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Sure."}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 25, "text": "...As being different as a result of it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Probably."}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 26, "text": "\"The Hanukkah Song\" - I love \"The Hanukkah Song.\" And we're going to play it now, if that's OK with you, because...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess."}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 27, "text": "...This is so wonderful. I love this song. We'll play the first version of it that you did...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Amazing."}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 28, "text": "...On \"Saturday Night Live.\" And here's how it came out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Got you."}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 29, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wow."}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 30, "text": "Adam Sandler, how did you start doing music in your comedy? Did you want to be in a band when you were growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was some good Jewish people right there. That was exciting. I knew Arthur Fonzarelli would get an applause break, man."}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 31, "text": "Were you ever in a band?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes. Yes."}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 32, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I love that."}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 33, "text": "No, that is so moving. That song that you did, like, part of it's really funny. This was when you hosted \"Saturday Night Live\"...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's cool. Thank you."}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 34, "text": "...In 2019. And it was your first time back since you were...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 35, "text": "...Fired...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 36, "text": "...And which you also sang about.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 37, "text": "But, no, this song is so moving and funny. In fact, can we hear a little bit of it? Is that all right? We have it cued up ready to play.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Right."}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 38, "text": "Yeah, OK. So this is the tribute to the late Chris Farley, who died of a drug overdose. I guess it was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Thank you."}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 39, "text": "Is that 2002 or something?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Man, that's..."}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 40, "text": "It was couple of years after he left the show, which is the same year...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think you're right."}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 41, "text": "...You left the show. Anyway, so here's Adam Sandler hosting \"Saturday Night Live,\" singing about Chris Farley in a very Springsteen-ish...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Maybe - yeah."}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 42, "text": "...Kind of mode.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes, for sure."}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 43, "text": "It was great. How did you start combining music and comedy? - because you wanted to be a musician and realized, though, there were people much better than you. Then, you got into comedy and probably realized, like, oh, my God, there are brilliant comics.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) On Saturday night, my man would always deliver whether he was the bumblebee girl or living (imitating Matt Foley) in a van down by the river. Oh, that sounded cool, man. Thank you."}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 44, "text": "But you carved out, like, this really unique place for yourself, both in the kind of comedy you ended up doing, but, you know, in combining music and comedy together.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 45, "text": "What was your self-image when you were young?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Yeah. I think it was - I don't know the exact thing. My roommate Tim Herlihy, who I write most of my comedies with, I think he might have brought it up. And, you know, I wrote a song parody or "}
{"id": "1164232596", "date": "2023-03-17", "guest": "Mike Francesa", "title": "How Adam Sandler carved out a niche in musical comedy: 'The guitar helped relax me'", "question_index": 46, "text": "All right. Adam Sandler, Josh and Benny Safdie, thank you so much for coming to our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The more people I met - that's what happened. The more people I met, I was like, this guy knows everything. I know nothing. Why am I so confident?"}
{"id": "1165559705", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Linda Simpson", "title": "NYC drag queen Linda Simpson reflects on the scene that set the stage for RuPaul", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Tennessee's anti-drag law goes into effect next week. The new law threatens to put many drag clubs out of business, and many drag queens could face misdemeanor or felony charges and jail. Similar bills have been proposed in at least 14 other states. Last week, we heard from Bella DuBalle, a drag queen who's the show director and host at the largest drag club in Memphis. Today, we talk about the drag scene in New York and the period described by journalist Michael Musto as the drag boom of the 1980s and '90s when a burgeoning New York club scene was filled with drag performers who perfected the art form. My guest, Linda Simpson, became part of that scene in the '80s. Musto, who is gay and covered New York's club scene for many years, wrote that much of that '80s and '90s drag scene would, quote, \"be forgotten were it not for the drag comic who goes by the stage name Linda Simpson, who captured it all with a point-and-shoot camera she kept in her purse. Simpson took some 5,000 photographs of drag performers posing in clubs, on the street and on gay pride parade floats, unwittingly creating a time capsule of an era when drag queens were the de rigueur jesters and goddesses of the underground,\" unquote. Simpson collected some of those photos in her book, \"The Drag Explosion.\" One of the people she photographed was RuPaul before he became America's most popular drag queen. Simpson was featured in the documentary \"Wig\" about Wigstock, the annual New York Drag festival that began in the '80s. She makes her living hosting drag shows and events, including bingo. Linda Simpson, welcome to FRESH AIR. Just let's start with, what pronouns do you like to use?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1165559705", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Linda Simpson", "title": "NYC drag queen Linda Simpson reflects on the scene that set the stage for RuPaul", "question_index": 1, "text": "And you're home right now, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when I'm in drag, I prefer she and her, and I'm in drag as we speak."}
{"id": "1165559705", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Linda Simpson", "title": "NYC drag queen Linda Simpson reflects on the scene that set the stage for RuPaul", "question_index": 2, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm going out later, but yes."}
{"id": "1165559705", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Linda Simpson", "title": "NYC drag queen Linda Simpson reflects on the scene that set the stage for RuPaul", "question_index": 3, "text": "All right. So the - you know, Tennessee has this new anti-drag law affecting drag queens and drag clubs in Tennessee. And I'm wondering if you're concerned that that would be a possibility in New York, or do you think that's very unlikely to happen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm going out later, but yes."}
{"id": "1165559705", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Linda Simpson", "title": "NYC drag queen Linda Simpson reflects on the scene that set the stage for RuPaul", "question_index": 4, "text": "You know, it's ironic that this crackdown on drag culture is happening after RuPaul popularized drag culture and turned drag into an Emmy Award-winning competition series on TV.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, maybe I'm being naive, but I don't think it will happen in New York. I think what's going to happen is that more of these anti-drag laws probably will be passed and will be sort of like the abor"}
{"id": "1165559705", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Linda Simpson", "title": "NYC drag queen Linda Simpson reflects on the scene that set the stage for RuPaul", "question_index": 5, "text": "Linda, can you describe your persona as a drag queen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's why I think this whole, like, battle is kind of ridiculous because you can, you know, ban drag from libraries or parks or wherever, but all anyone has to do is turn on the TV or go to the"}
{"id": "1165559705", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Linda Simpson", "title": "NYC drag queen Linda Simpson reflects on the scene that set the stage for RuPaul", "question_index": 6, "text": "Are you often in your male persona?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Terry, who you're talking to now is my persona. I'm a very calm, confident and intelligent woman. And I feel like I don't put on a character necessarily when I do drag. There are some people tha"}
{"id": "1165559705", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Linda Simpson", "title": "NYC drag queen Linda Simpson reflects on the scene that set the stage for RuPaul", "question_index": 7, "text": "Why did getting older change your attitude about how much you wanted to be in drag?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. No, 99% of the time or 95% of the time, I'm, you know, just a regular guy or regular gay guy. And then I'm an entertainer, so that's when I'm in drag. I used to dress up in drag a lot more just "}
{"id": "1165559705", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Linda Simpson", "title": "NYC drag queen Linda Simpson reflects on the scene that set the stage for RuPaul", "question_index": 8, "text": "Most women could tell you that", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, some of drag is uncomfortable, to tell you the truth. I mean, being in heels all night long..."}
{"id": "1165559705", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Linda Simpson", "title": "NYC drag queen Linda Simpson reflects on the scene that set the stage for RuPaul", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, some of drag is uncomfortable, to tell you the truth. I mean, being in heels all night long..."}
{"id": "1165559705", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Linda Simpson", "title": "NYC drag queen Linda Simpson reflects on the scene that set the stage for RuPaul", "question_index": 10, "text": "How has your wardrobe changed, your drag wardrobe changed, over time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you. And for drag queens, it's even a little bit more exaggerated with the wigs and the waist cinchers and, you know - but also, like, you know, the nightlife scene was - you know, it was "}
{"id": "1165559705", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Linda Simpson", "title": "NYC drag queen Linda Simpson reflects on the scene that set the stage for RuPaul", "question_index": 11, "text": "Can you describe your signature style?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I guess, you know, when I started, I was pretty poor, so most of my clothes were from thrift stores or kind of chain stores, you know, cheap chain stores. Now, I do work with a dressmaker who ma"}
{"id": "1165559705", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Linda Simpson", "title": "NYC drag queen Linda Simpson reflects on the scene that set the stage for RuPaul", "question_index": 12, "text": "How did you start taking pictures of drag performers, pictures that ended up having a lot of historical significance, which I don't think you were thinking about when you started doing this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this - again, it shows, you know, the generation of drag that I came up with. I started in the late '80s, early '90s. You know, those were my formative drag years. And our style back then - ther"}
{"id": "1165559705", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Linda Simpson", "title": "NYC drag queen Linda Simpson reflects on the scene that set the stage for RuPaul", "question_index": 13, "text": "Divorced from this particular scene - can you expand on that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I - back then, as mentioned, late '80s, you know, '90s, I carried around a camera, and that was kind of an unusual thing to do back then. You know, it's not like today, where people all have cell "}
{"id": "1165559705", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Linda Simpson", "title": "NYC drag queen Linda Simpson reflects on the scene that set the stage for RuPaul", "question_index": 14, "text": "So what made the scene that you documented unique?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Timewise. I mean, like, about eight years ago, I realized after looking through my photos, that they were a very interesting history of when I started drag. And that was a particularly momentous time "}
{"id": "1165559705", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Linda Simpson", "title": "NYC drag queen Linda Simpson reflects on the scene that set the stage for RuPaul", "question_index": 15, "text": "So what are your thoughts about RuPaul and her fame and the attention she brought to the whole drag scene?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was the first time, really, that drag was - kind of broke into showbiz, like, as a whole. Like, there had been, like, you know, individual performers like Divine or the Warhol superstars that"}
{"id": "1165559705", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Linda Simpson", "title": "NYC drag queen Linda Simpson reflects on the scene that set the stage for RuPaul", "question_index": 16, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Linda Simpson, a drag queen in New York who performs and hosts events. She's been photographing drag queens since the late 1980s and compiled some of those thousands of photos in a book called \"The Drag Explosion - New York's Drag Scene Of The '80s and '90s.\" We'll be back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't - I - well, Ru, of course, is a phenomenon. And I knew Ru when she was, you know, basically homeless and was, you know, a struggling performer. So the heights of success that Ru has managed is"}
{"id": "1165559705", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Linda Simpson", "title": "NYC drag queen Linda Simpson reflects on the scene that set the stage for RuPaul", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Linda Simpson, a drag queen in New York who performs and hosts events. She's been photographing drag queens since the '80s and compiled some of those thousands of photos in a book called \"The Drag Explosion - New York's Drag Scene Of The '80s and '90s.\" So at the height of the drag explosion, when it was both popular among, like, people who were already involved with the drag scene, but also it became more a part of mainstream culture, how did that change your life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't - I - well, Ru, of course, is a phenomenon. And I knew Ru when she was, you know, basically homeless and was, you know, a struggling performer. So the heights of success that Ru has managed is"}
{"id": "1165559705", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Linda Simpson", "title": "NYC drag queen Linda Simpson reflects on the scene that set the stage for RuPaul", "question_index": 18, "text": "Wait. Now, you're talking about the era where a lot of drag was impersonating Carol Channing or", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was very - it was kind of heady because all of a sudden, I, you know, and many other people went from, you know, working at gay bars at 1 a.m. to being on, you know, TV talk shows, nationally"}
{"id": "1165559705", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Linda Simpson", "title": "NYC drag queen Linda Simpson reflects on the scene that set the stage for RuPaul", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was very - it was kind of heady because all of a sudden, I, you know, and many other people went from, you know, working at gay bars at 1 a.m. to being on, you know, TV talk shows, nationally"}
{"id": "1165559705", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Linda Simpson", "title": "NYC drag queen Linda Simpson reflects on the scene that set the stage for RuPaul", "question_index": 20, "text": "Linda, how do you think the drag explosion coincided or didn't coincide with the AIDS epidemic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. It was kind of old-school, and there's nothing wrong with that, you know? And that stuff can be great. But it didn't really, I think, speak to modern youth. And so what was happening in the E"}
{"id": "1165559705", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Linda Simpson", "title": "NYC drag queen Linda Simpson reflects on the scene that set the stage for RuPaul", "question_index": 21, "text": "So how do you think AIDS affected the tone of performances, if at all?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, well, it coincided very much. I mean, the crisis, the AIDS crisis, you know, was at its peak during the late '80s to, you know, the mid - to the early '90s at least. So this was all going kind of "}
{"id": "1165559705", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Linda Simpson", "title": "NYC drag queen Linda Simpson reflects on the scene that set the stage for RuPaul", "question_index": 22, "text": "Like during World War II.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that a lot of the reason that the drag scene was so popular in the - you know, in that late '80s to mid-'90s period was that it provided an escape. And I think that's why nightlife back then w"}
{"id": "1165559705", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Linda Simpson", "title": "NYC drag queen Linda Simpson reflects on the scene that set the stage for RuPaul", "question_index": 23, "text": "What were your performances like back then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. It was kind of, like, you know, a way to rally the troops and, like, you know, just infuse some good feelings among the masses. And so I think that that was, you know, very helpful for a lot "}
{"id": "1165559705", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Linda Simpson", "title": "NYC drag queen Linda Simpson reflects on the scene that set the stage for RuPaul", "question_index": 24, "text": "My guest is Linda Simpson, who was part of New York's drag scene in the '80s and '90s, which she documented in over 5,000 photos. She now hosts drag shows and events. We'll talk more after a break. And we'll listen back to an excerpt of my interview with Frank Griswold, the Episcopal bishop who presided over the ordination and consecration of the first openly gay Episcopal bishop. Bishop Griswold died earlier this month at the age of 85. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, interestingly, I'm not very musically inclined, so I really don't lip-sync or sing. I'm more of an emcee or a personality. So I produced a lot of stuff, too. I was a little behind the scenes wit"}
{"id": "1165559705", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Linda Simpson", "title": "NYC drag queen Linda Simpson reflects on the scene that set the stage for RuPaul", "question_index": 25, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Linda Simpson, who documented New York's drag scene in the '80s and '90s in over 5,000 photos. She was part of that scene and now hosts drag shows and events. How did you start dressing in drag? And what did it mean to you when you started?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, interestingly, I'm not very musically inclined, so I really don't lip-sync or sing. I'm more of an emcee or a personality. So I produced a lot of stuff, too. I was a little behind the scenes wit"}
{"id": "1165559705", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Linda Simpson", "title": "NYC drag queen Linda Simpson reflects on the scene that set the stage for RuPaul", "question_index": 26, "text": "Your father was a minister. Did he have a church where he was a minister?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I started observing drag first. As I mentioned, the East Village drag scene was really vibrant at that time. So I thought it was just very amusing and very creative. And I became friendly with s"}
{"id": "1165559705", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Linda Simpson", "title": "NYC drag queen Linda Simpson reflects on the scene that set the stage for RuPaul", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My father, yes. Definitely. The church was a big part of my upbringing. I wasn't raised in an evangelical or a strict upbringing. But it was, you know, our life centered around the church. And honestl"}
{"id": "1165559705", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Linda Simpson", "title": "NYC drag queen Linda Simpson reflects on the scene that set the stage for RuPaul", "question_index": 28, "text": "But since he was a minister with a church, I imagine he was supposed to be a role model. Were you supposed to be, like, a role model child, like, well-behaved and very churchgoing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All dressed up in gown-ish-like outfits, preaching to whatever congregation might be in front of me."}
{"id": "1165559705", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Linda Simpson", "title": "NYC drag queen Linda Simpson reflects on the scene that set the stage for RuPaul", "question_index": 29, "text": "What was your father's reaction to you rejecting the church and being, as you described it, a feminine boy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't feel that pressure. I felt more kind of the pressure of just growing up gay in a heteronormative society in general. So it made me sort of a skeptic, a little bit of a cynic as a child. Like,"}
{"id": "1165559705", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Linda Simpson", "title": "NYC drag queen Linda Simpson reflects on the scene that set the stage for RuPaul", "question_index": 30, "text": "One of the things that's changed since you became a drag performer is the language that we use to describe gender-nonconforming people. And can you talk a little bit about the changes you've seen in terms of language?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my rejection of the church wasn't dramatic. I didn't, you know, march down the - march down the streets with, you know, God is dead signs or anything. But I just kind of gradually, you know, mov"}
{"id": "1165559705", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Linda Simpson", "title": "NYC drag queen Linda Simpson reflects on the scene that set the stage for RuPaul", "question_index": 31, "text": "Describe the kind of hosting or performances you've been doing lately.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, with drag, I do remember, you know, the early days, some people referring to me as he when I was in drag. And that would kind of rile me up. I mean, I was thinking, I'm obviously presenting myse"}
{"id": "1165559705", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Linda Simpson", "title": "NYC drag queen Linda Simpson reflects on the scene that set the stage for RuPaul", "question_index": 32, "text": "Linda Simpson, thank you so much. It's really been a pleasure to talk with you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what has happened is, you know, for the last, gosh, about 20 years, I've really become a game show hostess. So my medium is bingo. And so I host bingos. And I have several regular gigs in New Yo"}
{"id": "1165559705", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Linda Simpson", "title": "NYC drag queen Linda Simpson reflects on the scene that set the stage for RuPaul", "question_index": 33, "text": "Linda Simpson hosts drag shows and events in New York. Some of her thousands of photos are collected in her book \"The Drag Explosion.\" Tennessee's anti-drag law goes into effect April 1, which is next week. After we take a short break, we remember Bishop Frank Griswold. During his nine-year term as head of the U.S. Episcopal Church, he consecrated and ordained the first openly gay bishop in the church. Bishop Griswold died earlier this month. He was 85. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, I've had a blast. Your probing questions have got me thinking."}
{"id": "1165580264", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Frank Griswold", "title": "Remembering Frank Griswold, an Episcopal bishop who championed gay rights", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. When Gene Robinson became the first openly gay bishop of the U.S. Episcopal Church in 2003, it was Bishop Frank T. Griswold who presided over Robinson's ordination and consecration. Griswold was then the head of the Episcopal Church in America. His support of Robinson and of the ordination of women made him a controversial figure in the U.S. Episcopal Church and the Worldwide Anglican Church, which the Episcopal Church is part of. Bishop Griswold died March 5 at the age of 85. We're going to listen back to an excerpt of the interview I recorded with him in 2006 when the Worldwide Anglican Church was on the verge of splitting apart over these and other issues. When we spoke, he was just a few months away from completing his nine-year tenure. Bishop Griswold opposed schism in the church, and it was avoided. When his term ended, he was succeeded by a woman, Katharine Jefferts Schori. In 2009, the Episcopal Church officially removed gender and sexual orientation as barriers to the election of bishop. When Griswold was a priest in Pennsylvania, he helped revise the Book of Common Prayer, the church's main text. Here's an excerpt of our interview.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1165580264", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Frank Griswold", "title": "Remembering Frank Griswold, an Episcopal bishop who championed gay rights", "question_index": 1, "text": "How has the controversy over gay bishops affected your relationship with other bishops? I understand some bishops declined to take communion with you, for example.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1165580264", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Frank Griswold", "title": "Remembering Frank Griswold, an Episcopal bishop who championed gay rights", "question_index": 2, "text": "When Bishop Robinson was ordained and became the first openly gay Episcopal bishop, to the ordination ceremony, you wore a flak jacket, as, I believe, did he. Did you say to yourself, what is this world coming to that I have to wear a flak jacket to be part of this ceremony?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would say that, yes, some bishops probably see me as the incarnation of evil - few, but I think some probably do. And others have seen me, at least until the General Convention, as a sort of a hero."}
{"id": "1165580264", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Frank Griswold", "title": "Remembering Frank Griswold, an Episcopal bishop who championed gay rights", "question_index": 3, "text": "Being a bishop, do people assume that you have a special connection to God and that being a bishop just inherently brings you closer to God or is a sign that you already were closer to God?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, quite frankly, I was more amused than scared by that. I went along with it because that's what I was asked to do. And I also thought that if indeed something did occur, which I felt was complete"}
{"id": "1165580264", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Frank Griswold", "title": "Remembering Frank Griswold, an Episcopal bishop who championed gay rights", "question_index": 4, "text": "It seems to me from the outside that being a bishop would probably immerse you in the power, politics and administrative work of religion, and that can sometimes not be the most spiritual place to be - power, politics and administration. So are there things you have to be wary of when you're a bishop?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The wonderful paradox of being a bishop, at least in the Anglican tradition, is the more elaborate your title becomes and the more magnificent the vesture you put on, the more you are stripped inwardl"}
{"id": "1165580264", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Frank Griswold", "title": "Remembering Frank Griswold, an Episcopal bishop who championed gay rights", "question_index": 5, "text": "What are your vestments as a bishop?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think you have to be wary of taking yourself too seriously. I think you have to stay rooted and grounded in an active and authentic faith life that is beyond the institution. One thing I do every ye"}
{"id": "1165580264", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Frank Griswold", "title": "Remembering Frank Griswold, an Episcopal bishop who championed gay rights", "question_index": 6, "text": "Does putting on those vestments give you the sense of either spirituality or theater that you feel you need or that is helpful in conducting a service?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there's a hat, a pointed hat, called a miter, and then you carry a staff, which is called a crozier. Or since I'm the presiding bishop and primate, it's a primatial cross, but it's the same idea"}
{"id": "1165580264", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Frank Griswold", "title": "Remembering Frank Griswold, an Episcopal bishop who championed gay rights", "question_index": 7, "text": "Oh, I love theater, and I don't mean that in a negative way", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think in the midst of conducting a service, I feel very much that I am an instrument of God. That also means that I'm aware of myself as myself, and I'm also aware that the gestures and movements al"}
{"id": "1165580264", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Frank Griswold", "title": "Remembering Frank Griswold, an Episcopal bishop who championed gay rights", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think in the midst of conducting a service, I feel very much that I am an instrument of God. That also means that I'm aware of myself as myself, and I'm also aware that the gestures and movements al"}
{"id": "1165580264", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Frank Griswold", "title": "Remembering Frank Griswold, an Episcopal bishop who championed gay rights", "question_index": 9, "text": "How did your parents practice religion when you were growing up? What was the style of religion that you were brought up with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no. I know you don't. I know you don't. But for some people to say that there's theater associated with this would sound demeaning. But how you move liturgically, you know, how you go down an aisl"}
{"id": "1165580264", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Frank Griswold", "title": "Remembering Frank Griswold, an Episcopal bishop who championed gay rights", "question_index": 10, "text": "Did you feel called to be a priest? And if so, would you describe what that means to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was brought up in what I would call cultural Episcopalianism. I was baptized on the 1 of January 1938, which would have been my grandfather's 100th birthday. That was the reason for the day being ch"}
{"id": "1165580264", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Frank Griswold", "title": "Remembering Frank Griswold, an Episcopal bishop who championed gay rights", "question_index": 11, "text": "Is there anything that you really hoped to accomplish in your tenure as presiding bishop of the U.S. Episcopal Church that you feel like you wish you had, but you're not going to be able to do it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My call happened in a very funny way. My roommate at the boarding school I mentioned came back one Sunday afternoon from a visit to one of the clergy, fell on his bed roaring with laughter and pointed"}
{"id": "1165580264", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Frank Griswold", "title": "Remembering Frank Griswold, an Episcopal bishop who championed gay rights", "question_index": 12, "text": "Thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What I've hoped to do, and only time will tell, is keep people with differing points of view together in one larger conversation, to the point where they can recognize Christ in one another and, havin"}
{"id": "1165580264", "date": "2023-03-23", "guest": "Frank Griswold", "title": "Remembering Frank Griswold, an Episcopal bishop who championed gay rights", "question_index": 13, "text": "My interview with Bishop Frank Griswold was recorded in 2006. He died March 5 at the age of 85. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But thank you very much. I've very much enjoyed this."}
{"id": "1165824579", "date": "2023-03-24", "guest": "Brian Cox", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the final season of 'Succession,' with Cox, Culkin and Macfadyen", "question_index": 0, "text": "Brian Cox, welcome to FRESH AIR. It is such a pleasure to have you back on the show. I love \"Succession,\" and I love you in it, so welcome.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Logan Roy) Yeah, the law. The law is people. And people is politics. And I can handle the people."}
{"id": "1165824579", "date": "2023-03-24", "guest": "Brian Cox", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the final season of 'Succession,' with Cox, Culkin and Macfadyen", "question_index": 1, "text": "The last line in the scene that we just played is so good. The law is people, and people is politics, and I can handle the people. When you - that's such a memorable line. Like, that's going to be a quoted line. So when you saw that line, did you think, like, wow, this is a good one?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. It's good to be here. Good to be back. Good to be back, Terry."}
{"id": "1165824579", "date": "2023-03-24", "guest": "Brian Cox", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the final season of 'Succession,' with Cox, Culkin and Macfadyen", "question_index": 2, "text": "OK, OK, I have to stop you here and say I love that you were totally describing this from the point of view of your character, Logan Roy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean, well, there's so many good lines in the show, and, you know, it's very - he's a very - you know, he's an extraordinary character, Logan. I mean, he's probably one of the most extraordina"}
{"id": "1165824579", "date": "2023-03-24", "guest": "Brian Cox", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the final season of 'Succession,' with Cox, Culkin and Macfadyen", "question_index": 3, "text": "What you are leaving out here is the fact that he has no morals, he has no ethics, and if his children are spoiled and come up short on things, it's 'cause that's how he brought them up. He brought them up - it seems like he brought them up manipulating them, teaching them to fight for power, to fight with each other among - you know, for power. He's totally manipulative of them. He shows them no love", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1165824579", "date": "2023-03-24", "guest": "Brian Cox", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the final season of 'Succession,' with Cox, Culkin and Macfadyen", "question_index": 4, "text": ", so - but you're really seeing it from his point of view.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1165824579", "date": "2023-03-24", "guest": "Brian Cox", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the final season of 'Succession,' with Cox, Culkin and Macfadyen", "question_index": 5, "text": "That is a problem.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think he's capable of expressing love in that way. I think that's his problem."}
{"id": "1165824579", "date": "2023-03-24", "guest": "Brian Cox", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the final season of 'Succession,' with Cox, Culkin and Macfadyen", "question_index": 6, "text": "It's a big problem.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's his difficulty."}
{"id": "1165824579", "date": "2023-03-24", "guest": "Brian Cox", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the final season of 'Succession,' with Cox, Culkin and Macfadyen", "question_index": 7, "text": "You asked the writers, does Logan love his children?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, he's not - he can't do it because just - again, because of his background. You know, the historical inevitability of your own relationship, what you come through, what you - who you become o"}
{"id": "1165824579", "date": "2023-03-24", "guest": "Brian Cox", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the final season of 'Succession,' with Cox, Culkin and Macfadyen", "question_index": 8, "text": "Why did you need to know? Why did you need to ask? And how did the answer affect your performance?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did."}
{"id": "1165824579", "date": "2023-03-24", "guest": "Brian Cox", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the final season of 'Succession,' with Cox, Culkin and Macfadyen", "question_index": 9, "text": "Are there other questions that you've asked the writers of \"Succession\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I needed to know because I - you know, because - is he just cruel? You know, is he needlessly cruel? And I - 'cause I thought if he's needlessly cruel, this is going to be a very boring show for me. Y"}
{"id": "1165824579", "date": "2023-03-24", "guest": "Brian Cox", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the final season of 'Succession,' with Cox, Culkin and Macfadyen", "question_index": 10, "text": "I want to talk with you about the musicality in your line readings. And what I want to do is play the same clip that we heard earlier, an excerpt of that clip. And there's a line I particularly want to ask you about, and it's the line where you say - we were talking about misdeeds from a while ago, and you say, I don't know. It was, like, a quarter a century ago, a lot of it. So let's listen back to that clip, and then, we'll talk.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not many. No, I tend not to. I don't work in that way. I mean, I - the key question for me was when - does he love his children? Because once you have that, once you establish that, then the conflict "}
{"id": "1165824579", "date": "2023-03-24", "guest": "Brian Cox", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the final season of 'Succession,' with Cox, Culkin and Macfadyen", "question_index": 11, "text": "OK. It's so musical the way you do your lines and the way you say things that, like, avoid responsibility.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Logan Roy) And we poured millions in it. Sure, did we play rough with the odd [expletive] union boss or some moaning Minnie repeat litigant? I don't know. It was a quarter a century ago, a lot of "}
{"id": "1165824579", "date": "2023-03-24", "guest": "Brian Cox", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the final season of 'Succession,' with Cox, Culkin and Macfadyen", "question_index": 12, "text": "Like, you know, I don't know. It was a quarter century ago, a lot of it. So do you score your lines? Do you put pauses in? Or, like, how do you approach it so it ends up sounding just so ear-catching?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Logan Roy) And we poured millions in it. Sure, did we play rough with the odd [expletive] union boss or some moaning Minnie repeat litigant? I don't know. It was a quarter a century ago, a lot of "}
{"id": "1165824579", "date": "2023-03-24", "guest": "Brian Cox", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the final season of 'Succession,' with Cox, Culkin and Macfadyen", "question_index": 13, "text": "Can I stop you a second? You said that - something about the voice beautiful? What are you referring to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I - you know, I think I'm just gifted, you know? I have a - I mean, I have God-given gift, which is my voice. And I'm also part - I mean, one of the great things for me as an actor was to listen to vo"}
{"id": "1165824579", "date": "2023-03-24", "guest": "Brian Cox", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the final season of 'Succession,' with Cox, Culkin and Macfadyen", "question_index": 14, "text": "You fell in love with movies. What were some of the movies that you fell in love with at an early age?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Brian Cox speaking to Terry Gross in 2022. This is FRESH AIR."}
{"id": "1165824579", "date": "2023-03-24", "guest": "Brian Cox", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the final season of 'Succession,' with Cox, Culkin and Macfadyen", "question_index": 15, "text": "So your period of becoming an actor coincided with this new period of social mobility where working-class actors...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", a lot of them - Tracy, you know. So they all came from the same Celtic stock. So - and somehow, the films resonated."}
{"id": "1165824579", "date": "2023-03-24", "guest": "Brian Cox", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the final season of 'Succession,' with Cox, Culkin and Macfadyen", "question_index": 16, "text": "...Were becoming accepted. And working-class stories started being told in movies in England. Did you feel like your accent or your background ever held you back either in your training at the London Academy of Music and Dramatic Art or in your access to roles?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The greatest time"}
{"id": "1165824579", "date": "2023-03-24", "guest": "Brian Cox", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the final season of 'Succession,' with Cox, Culkin and Macfadyen", "question_index": 17, "text": "You've worked with many actors. And you've worked with many actors with different approaches to acting. You don't personally subscribe to, like, the method approach where you dig down into your own emotional memory to play the character or where you stay in character while on set, even when you're not onstage or in front of the camera. But you've worked with actors who do have that approach. And you mentioned Daniel Day-Lewis, who you worked with in the film \"The Boxer,\" and how he would stay in character. What impact does it have on you when you're not staying in character when you're not in front of the camera, but an actor who you're working with is staying in character?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "when I started out, playing a lot of Liverpool people or Yorkshire. I played quite - I did a David Storey play, so I did - played a lot of Yorkshire people. You know, I played - did a film, and then I"}
{"id": "1165824579", "date": "2023-03-24", "guest": "Brian Cox", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the final season of 'Succession,' with Cox, Culkin and Macfadyen", "question_index": 18, "text": "Brian Cox, it's been great to talk with you again. Thank you so much. And thank you for your portrayal of Logan Roy. I love the show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- I'm afraid it's a question of horses for courses, really. And there's one particular horse from one particular course, and they pursue that course, and that horse pursues that course. My thing about"}
{"id": "1165824579", "date": "2023-03-24", "guest": "Brian Cox", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the final season of 'Succession,' with Cox, Culkin and Macfadyen", "question_index": 19, "text": "Kieran Culkin, welcome to FRESH AIR. It is such a pleasure to have you. I love the show. I love your performance in it. I love the writing. I love all the actors. Anyways, thank you for being on our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Roman Roy) Yeah. I've got some ideas for ATN, you know, sluice out the porridge and add some sriracha - poach some of those TikTok psychos, you know, e-girls with guns and Juul pods. You know, giv"}
{"id": "1165824579", "date": "2023-03-24", "guest": "Brian Cox", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the final season of 'Succession,' with Cox, Culkin and Macfadyen", "question_index": 20, "text": "So that said, after all the praise, when the first episode was on, I didn't make it through the episode. I didn't like it. I thought, these characters are monsters. They were, like, the most privileged people in the world. They're monsters. Why would I spend my time watching this story about them? And then I finally figured out, through hearing other people talk about it, that it sounded great, and I should give it another shot. And that's when I realized the show is really funny. I mean, you wouldn't know it just looking at the surface 'cause everybody is so in character and is so serious in the way they play their role, but the writing is just hilarious. Were you all worried about that, that there'd be a lot of people like me who wouldn't realize at first that it was really funny and would just kind of not care about these monsters?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. That's really nice."}
{"id": "1165824579", "date": "2023-03-24", "guest": "Brian Cox", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the final season of 'Succession,' with Cox, Culkin and Macfadyen", "question_index": 21, "text": "Right, right. So, you know, in the clip that we just played, I'm thinking, has Roman just picked a candidate that would have been leading the insurrection?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had the same feeling, even while we were shooting it. I looked at the pilot script, and I said, I know this is quality. As we were shooting it, I felt great about what we were doing. But I felt, who"}
{"id": "1165824579", "date": "2023-03-24", "guest": "Brian Cox", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the final season of 'Succession,' with Cox, Culkin and Macfadyen", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had the same feeling, even while we were shooting it. I looked at the pilot script, and I said, I know this is quality. As we were shooting it, I felt great about what we were doing. But I felt, who"}
{"id": "1165824579", "date": "2023-03-24", "guest": "Brian Cox", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the final season of 'Succession,' with Cox, Culkin and Macfadyen", "question_index": 23, "text": "Did you think about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Probably."}
{"id": "1165824579", "date": "2023-03-24", "guest": "Brian Cox", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the final season of 'Succession,' with Cox, Culkin and Macfadyen", "question_index": 24, "text": "Yeah. And your character has no beliefs, no real moral center", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. But it's funny. He just goes on instinct. I don't think he went into that summit with this guy fully on his radar. Mencken approaches him at a bar. And I thought, oh, this is a guy we can work "}
{"id": "1165824579", "date": "2023-03-24", "guest": "Brian Cox", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the final season of 'Succession,' with Cox, Culkin and Macfadyen", "question_index": 25, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. But it's funny. He just goes on instinct. I don't think he went into that summit with this guy fully on his radar. Mencken approaches him at a bar. And I thought, oh, this is a guy we can work "}
{"id": "1165824579", "date": "2023-03-24", "guest": "Brian Cox", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the final season of 'Succession,' with Cox, Culkin and Macfadyen", "question_index": 26, "text": "Your character has done some very horrible things during the course of the series. What do you think is one of the most horrible?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Probably not. I don't think he even has any sort of political agenda of any kind. I don't think he really cares."}
{"id": "1165824579", "date": "2023-03-24", "guest": "Brian Cox", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the final season of 'Succession,' with Cox, Culkin and Macfadyen", "question_index": 27, "text": "Oh, that's so horrible. Why don't you explain what he does?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The one and only choice I made for the character was this guy grew up never having to suffer consequences, and so he doesn't really know what that means to suffer consequences. So I think - and I've s"}
{"id": "1165824579", "date": "2023-03-24", "guest": "Brian Cox", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the final season of 'Succession,' with Cox, Culkin and Macfadyen", "question_index": 28, "text": "This is - let me just set this up. This is a family baseball game. And there's, like, a young kid who's maybe 10 or something standing by with his parents. And you invite him to go up to bat, and you tell him, if you get a home run, I'm going to give you $1 million. You write out the check. And so, like, the kid is, like, so nervous, and his parents are just kind of biting their lips, and you're just, like, toying with him. And, of course, he doesn't make the home run, and you tear up the check. And it's just a horrible thing to do to a kid.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He goes up to that kid and tells him if he hits a home run, he will sign a check for a million dollars."}
{"id": "1165824579", "date": "2023-03-24", "guest": "Brian Cox", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the final season of 'Succession,' with Cox, Culkin and Macfadyen", "question_index": 29, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The kid comes close, too. But I think in - to look at it from Roman's perspective, like, that's why - a lot of people have told me that it was horrible. I read it on page and thought it was horrible. "}
{"id": "1165824579", "date": "2023-03-24", "guest": "Brian Cox", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the final season of 'Succession,' with Cox, Culkin and Macfadyen", "question_index": 30, "text": "Right. Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So he tore up the check in front of him."}
{"id": "1165824579", "date": "2023-03-24", "guest": "Brian Cox", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the final season of 'Succession,' with Cox, Culkin and Macfadyen", "question_index": 31, "text": "You seem to have had this, like, approach-avoidance attitude toward acting. There's been periods where you've acted and periods where you've decided to drop out. Has the show and its success and your fabulous performance and role in it made you feel any differently about acting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He doesn't get the million dollars. So is it that horrible? He actually provided this kid with a tremendous opportunity and gave the family memories. I'm not saying this is my - Kieran's perspective, "}
{"id": "1165824579", "date": "2023-03-24", "guest": "Brian Cox", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the final season of 'Succession,' with Cox, Culkin and Macfadyen", "question_index": 32, "text": "Yeah, yeah, that's - yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it was, you know - because I've been doing it since I was a kid. And I don't think, you know, when you're 6, 7 years old and you say, hey, Mom, Dad, I want to be an actor, that you're actually r"}
{"id": "1165824579", "date": "2023-03-24", "guest": "Brian Cox", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the final season of 'Succession,' with Cox, Culkin and Macfadyen", "question_index": 33, "text": "What did you hate about the idea of your face being on a poster?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it just took that long, and now I feel comfortable with it now. It's like before, I think I've always had this sort of - I had a relationship with it. It was a love-hate. I loved doing the work."}
{"id": "1165824579", "date": "2023-03-24", "guest": "Brian Cox", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the final season of 'Succession,' with Cox, Culkin and Macfadyen", "question_index": 34, "text": "Some people just dream about that happening. That's their ambition, I want to be on a bus.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Are you kidding? Oh, there's my head on the bus going by, you know? I don't know. There's just something about that that's just really embarrassing."}
{"id": "1165824579", "date": "2023-03-24", "guest": "Brian Cox", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the final season of 'Succession,' with Cox, Culkin and Macfadyen", "question_index": 35, "text": "How's your memory in terms of memorizing lines?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To me, that's a nightmare. That's like, you know, you know what I want to hear? I want to hear the sound of my own voice. You know, when you - like, you hear a recording of yourself on, like, a voicem"}
{"id": "1165824579", "date": "2023-03-24", "guest": "Brian Cox", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the final season of 'Succession,' with Cox, Culkin and Macfadyen", "question_index": 36, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That is something that I can credit towards my childhood acting because I memorize lines extremely fast. It's almost like a parlor trick that has nothing to do with, like, you know, talent or anything"}
{"id": "1165824579", "date": "2023-03-24", "guest": "Brian Cox", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the final season of 'Succession,' with Cox, Culkin and Macfadyen", "question_index": 37, "text": "Oh, that's hilarious. Well, I love you on the show. I love the show. Thank you so much for being on our show. I really appreciate it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he got so mad because he had to, like, work the night before and try to learn these lines. And I looked at it twice and I knew it and he was so mad."}
{"id": "1166783252", "date": "2023-03-29", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "In 'Above Ground,' Clint Smith uses poetry to confront the legacy of slavery", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. With some fiction and nonfiction books about Black history banned in some schools, it's a particularly good time to talk with my guest, Clint Smith. His nonfiction book \"How The Word Is Passed: A Reckoning With The History Of Slavery Across America\" won the National Book Critics Circle Award for nonfiction and reached No. 1 on the New York Times bestseller list. It was also on The New York Times Book Reviews list of the 10 Best Books of 2021. For that book, he visited eight places central to the history of slavery in America to better understand the distortions in the way the history of slavery was taught to him and to most children, and the ways many Americans deceive themselves about that history. Smith is also an award-winning poet, and I'm happy to say he has a new collection called \"Above Ground.\" It deals with the legacy of slavery in a more personal way, through poems addressed to his young children about what their grandparents endured and escaped. The poems are also about fatherhood and the joy and anxiety surrounding it, especially as a Black father. Some of those poems are very sobering. Some are really funny. Clint Smith, welcome back to FRESH AIR. It's really a treat to have you back on the show. Your book opens with a prose poem about something I've been thinking about a lot, and I know a lot of other people think about this, too, and that is how do you hold two opposing thoughts in your head at the same time - gratitude for the things that are right in your life and anger or fear about everything that's wrong in your life or in politics or in the larger world or with the Earth itself? What were you trying to reconcile when you wrote this? What was happening in your life?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1166783252", "date": "2023-03-29", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "In 'Above Ground,' Clint Smith uses poetry to confront the legacy of slavery", "question_index": 1, "text": "And you have the ability to put it all in words that really perfect the thought, clarify the thought. So would you read for us \"All At Once\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, it's so good to be back with you, Terry. It's always a pleasure to be on this program. And with regard to this first poem, so much of what I've been thinking about over the last several ye"}
{"id": "1166783252", "date": "2023-03-29", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "In 'Above Ground,' Clint Smith uses poetry to confront the legacy of slavery", "question_index": 2, "text": "Before we get to more of your poems, I want to ask you about your nonfiction book, \"How The Word Is Passed.\" That's about the legacy of slavery and the monuments commemorating the Confederacy and slave holders and the distortions of history. Has your book been banned? There's so many books now, fiction and nonfiction, related to Black history that have been banned or that are under consideration for removal from the classroom.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd be happy to. (Reading) \"All At Once.\" The redwoods are on fire in California. A flood submerges a neighborhood that sat quiet on the coast for three centuries. A child takes their first steps and "}
{"id": "1166783252", "date": "2023-03-29", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "In 'Above Ground,' Clint Smith uses poetry to confront the legacy of slavery", "question_index": 3, "text": "You know, part of the point of that book was to write the things that no one ever told you when you were in school. You got a very, like, distorted picture of slavery to the extent you were taught about it at all. And your book was an attempt to say, hey, this is what happened, and these are the monuments to that. These are the, like, physical reminders of what happened. Let's talk about what really happened and how we remember the past and what we need to change in how we remember the past, because the past has been misrepresented in schools, among other places. And you grew up in the South. You grew up in Louisiana and in New Orleans, surrounded by Confederate monuments, walking down streets with the names of Confederate leaders and, like, slave owners. So it's just ironic that a book meant to be an educational corrective is perceived as so threatening.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, it's interesting because I think there are a couple different ways that book-banning manifests itself as a sort of political and social phenomenon. I'm not specifically familiar with w"}
{"id": "1166783252", "date": "2023-03-29", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "In 'Above Ground,' Clint Smith uses poetry to confront the legacy of slavery", "question_index": 4, "text": "Well, let's take a break here, then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Clint Smith. His new collection of poems is called \"Above Ground.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think it's really unfortunate. As you said, I wrote this book for the 15-year-old version of me. I tried to write the sort of book that I felt like I needed in my high school American history "}
{"id": "1166783252", "date": "2023-03-29", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "In 'Above Ground,' Clint Smith uses poetry to confront the legacy of slavery", "question_index": 5, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Clint Smith. His new collection of poems, \"Above Ground,\" is about fatherhood and the joy and anxiety surrounding it especially as a Black father. He's also the author of the 2021 nonfiction book \"How The Word Is Passed: A Reckoning With The History Of Slavery Across America.\" Let's talk about your poems, and I want you to read one that's in part about what your grandparents lived through growing up in what you describe as the apartheid South. Your grandfather was from Mississippi and your grandmother from Florida. And it also refers to the miracle of your son being born, your first child, because he was hard to conceive. And then, the pregnancy ended up being very risky. Would you read it for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think it's really unfortunate. As you said, I wrote this book for the 15-year-old version of me. I tried to write the sort of book that I felt like I needed in my high school American history "}
{"id": "1166783252", "date": "2023-03-29", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "In 'Above Ground,' Clint Smith uses poetry to confront the legacy of slavery", "question_index": 6, "text": "Do you tell your children about what it took for them to get here, for you to get here, what your grandparents endured and how they survived?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) \"By Chance.\" If the doctors said you were impossible and you arrived anyway, does it mean they were wrong? Or does it mean you defied science? What is the difference between science and a mi"}
{"id": "1166783252", "date": "2023-03-29", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "In 'Above Ground,' Clint Smith uses poetry to confront the legacy of slavery", "question_index": 7, "text": "Did you always know you wanted to be a father? And when you were younger and - well, when you were older, when you were a young man and you looked around and you saw the people who were parents your age and older, what did you see?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do, absolutely. I think it's really important for them to know. And this poem is actually speaking to the experience not only of my own grandparents, but also thinking specifically of my wife's moth"}
{"id": "1166783252", "date": "2023-03-29", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "In 'Above Ground,' Clint Smith uses poetry to confront the legacy of slavery", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, man. Well, I thought that once you reached your 30s, you were, like, an elderly person."}
{"id": "1166783252", "date": "2023-03-29", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "In 'Above Ground,' Clint Smith uses poetry to confront the legacy of slavery", "question_index": 9, "text": "I want you to read a poem about that. And this is a poem about meeting your wife and deciding to try to conceive pretty soon because of the problems of fertility.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I was like - you know, I couldn't - I was like, once you have kids, you're, like, old. You must be on - I didn't know what Social Security was, but I was like, well, whatever version of the thing t"}
{"id": "1166783252", "date": "2023-03-29", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "In 'Above Ground,' Clint Smith uses poetry to confront the legacy of slavery", "question_index": 10, "text": "So that was a follow-up poem to the title poem of your first book of poetry, which was also about thinking about your past in terms of numbers. I'll just quote a few lines. You write, my grandfather is a quarter century older than his right to vote and two decades younger than the president who signed the paper that made it so. Why do numbers have so much power where you're counting, you know, the days, the months, the distance between?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) \"Counting Descent II.\" My son was born on the 71st day of spring on the fifth floor of a hospital in a city with a history of burning. He had two grandmothers in the room and four generation"}
{"id": "1166783252", "date": "2023-03-29", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "In 'Above Ground,' Clint Smith uses poetry to confront the legacy of slavery", "question_index": 11, "text": "How did you have to recalibrate your plans for your own writing career after you became a father?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I should say that this poem and the one that preceded it were inspired by a mentor of mine, Alan Michael Parker, who's a professor at Davidson College where I went, and he was my advisor. He was"}
{"id": "1166783252", "date": "2023-03-29", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "In 'Above Ground,' Clint Smith uses poetry to confront the legacy of slavery", "question_index": 12, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, man, I - you know, I used to - I was like, I'm going to go to the woods for, like, three months, and I'm going to write a novel, and I'm going to - you know, I imagined these sort of long retreats"}
{"id": "1166783252", "date": "2023-03-29", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "In 'Above Ground,' Clint Smith uses poetry to confront the legacy of slavery", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Clint Smith. His new collection of poems is called \"Above Ground.\" We'll be right back after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And the sun hit me just so. And there was very little of that. I think I had a conversation with a mentor, Imani Perry, the incredible writer, Princeton scholar. We got together years ago after my "}
{"id": "1166783252", "date": "2023-03-29", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "In 'Above Ground,' Clint Smith uses poetry to confront the legacy of slavery", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Clint Smith. His new collection of poems \"Above Ground\" is about the joy and anxiety surrounding fatherhood, especially as a Black father. Some of the poems reflect the themes he wrote about in his nonfiction book \"How The Word Is Passed: A Reckoning With The History Of Slavery Across America.\" That book is about how monuments to slave owners and Confederate soldiers, as well as how history has been taught, have distorted the truth about slavery and its ongoing legacy. He grew up in New Orleans, surrounded by Confederate monuments and walking along streets named after Confederate leaders and enslavers. There's a poem I'd like you to read about being out at the pharmacy with your two young kids. And if you have any greatest hits, any poems you think of as greatest hits, I would imagine this would be one of them. So this poem is called \"Gold Stars.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And the sun hit me just so. And there was very little of that. I think I had a conversation with a mentor, Imani Perry, the incredible writer, Princeton scholar. We got together years ago after my "}
{"id": "1166783252", "date": "2023-03-29", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "In 'Above Ground,' Clint Smith uses poetry to confront the legacy of slavery", "question_index": 15, "text": "Your wife must love that poem and the acknowledgement of the disparity between how men are just, like, acknowledged and applauded for just being a father out in public with their kids and the way women are just expected to be that way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) \"Gold Stars.\" On the days when I am out alone with my children, I'm made to feel as if I am a saint or a god or the undisputed best father of all time. What I mean is that when we walk into "}
{"id": "1166783252", "date": "2023-03-29", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "In 'Above Ground,' Clint Smith uses poetry to confront the legacy of slavery", "question_index": 16, "text": "So you've made it clear how fortunate you feel to have your two children and to have - you know, to have children at all because you were given only a 1% chance, you and your wife, of being able to conceive. But in the spirit of your first poem that you read of, like, holding two thoughts in your head at the same time, you love your kids; you love being with them; you're so glad when they go to sleep. And so I want you to read a poem about that called \"Ode To Those First 15 Minutes After The Kids Are Finally Asleep.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's one of those things where, you know - and we talk about this all the time and experience it in such profoundly different ways all the time. And I think there's an additional layer because, "}
{"id": "1166783252", "date": "2023-03-29", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "In 'Above Ground,' Clint Smith uses poetry to confront the legacy of slavery", "question_index": 17, "text": "I think so many people will relate to that. What stage are you now with your kids?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) \"Ode To Those First 15 Minutes After The Kids Are Finally Asleep.\" Praise the couch that welcomes you back into its embrace, as it does every night around this time. Praise the loose cereal "}
{"id": "1166783252", "date": "2023-03-29", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "In 'Above Ground,' Clint Smith uses poetry to confront the legacy of slavery", "question_index": 18, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My son is about to turn 6. My daughter just turned 4. And so, you know, I think we all relate to that time after a workday and then picking the kids up, doing the afternoon activities and the homework"}
{"id": "1166783252", "date": "2023-03-29", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "In 'Above Ground,' Clint Smith uses poetry to confront the legacy of slavery", "question_index": 19, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Clint Smith. His new collection of poems is called \"Above Ground.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. The constant vigilance is - can be exhausting in ways you don't fully realize until the day is done."}
{"id": "1166783252", "date": "2023-03-29", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "In 'Above Ground,' Clint Smith uses poetry to confront the legacy of slavery", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Clint Smith. His new collection of poems, \"Above Ground,\" is about fatherhood and the joy and anxiety surrounding it especially as a Black father. He's also the author of the 2021 nonfiction book \"How The Word Is Passed: A Reckoning With The History Of Slavery Across America.\" You grew up in New Orleans, surrounded by Confederate monuments and streets named after Confederate leaders and slaveholders. So, you know, that was part of the inspiration for your previous book about the legacy of slavery. But you had a personal trauma - well, a collective trauma, really, in New Orleans. You were 17 during Hurricane Katrina. And I think your family moved after that. Did you lose your home? Like, what was your experience of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. The constant vigilance is - can be exhausting in ways you don't fully realize until the day is done."}
{"id": "1166783252", "date": "2023-03-29", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "In 'Above Ground,' Clint Smith uses poetry to confront the legacy of slavery", "question_index": 21, "text": "What was your personal experience of the storm, of the hurricane?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We did lose our home. I was 17. I was a senior in high school. And our home was under, you know, 10 feet of water, submerged, like 80% of the city was. It was hard in ways that I think I'm still tryin"}
{"id": "1166783252", "date": "2023-03-29", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "In 'Above Ground,' Clint Smith uses poetry to confront the legacy of slavery", "question_index": 22, "text": "Early?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, we evacuated..."}
{"id": "1166783252", "date": "2023-03-29", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "In 'Above Ground,' Clint Smith uses poetry to confront the legacy of slavery", "question_index": 23, "text": "Oh, yeah. So you weren't in the storm itself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And went to Houston probably two days before. I remember..."}
{"id": "1166783252", "date": "2023-03-29", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "In 'Above Ground,' Clint Smith uses poetry to confront the legacy of slavery", "question_index": 24, "text": "There's one more poem I'd like you to read, and this is about your physical health and the physical health of your family. And it's also really basically a meditation on life itself. So the poem is called \"For The Doctor's Record\" (ph), and it's kind of as if you were giving a medical history at a checkup.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, we weren't in the storm. No, I mean - and the thing that some people who aren't from New Orleans don't always understand is that evacuating from the hurricane was, like, a regular occurrence. It w"}
{"id": "1166783252", "date": "2023-03-29", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "In 'Above Ground,' Clint Smith uses poetry to confront the legacy of slavery", "question_index": 25, "text": "What were you doing when you wrote that poem? What made you think of life in a way - as interpreted through medical records?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) \"For The Doctor's Records.\" My father has chronic kidney disease. He has had two transplants thanks to two people who were generous in ways I'm worried I am not. My mother has a nerve in her"}
{"id": "1166783252", "date": "2023-03-29", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "In 'Above Ground,' Clint Smith uses poetry to confront the legacy of slavery", "question_index": 26, "text": "There's a kind of follow-up poem to the poem you just read. And it's called \"For The Doctor's Record: Follow-Up,\" (ph) as if it's a follow-up appointment and you're still reporting medical things. And what I'd like you to do is just read the last part of it, starting with last night.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is inspired by a poem by the incredible poet Nicole Sealey. Our family, like many families, have a very specific and often checkered medical history. And I was thinking about this in part because"}
{"id": "1166783252", "date": "2023-03-29", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "In 'Above Ground,' Clint Smith uses poetry to confront the legacy of slavery", "question_index": 27, "text": "Is that right, that you've never really stopped to watch a sunset?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) Last night, another boy who could have once been me or who might one day be my son was killed by police. But this time, no cameras showed up. I haven't cried in a long time. There have been "}
{"id": "1166783252", "date": "2023-03-29", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "In 'Above Ground,' Clint Smith uses poetry to confront the legacy of slavery", "question_index": 28, "text": "Clint Smith, it's been great having you on the show again and hearing you read your poems and talk about your life. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "At the time of writing that poem, that was true. Yeah. And I think that part of what poems do in their own strange way is make me more present and sort of hold me accountable. So the very act of writi"}
{"id": "1166783252", "date": "2023-03-29", "guest": "Clint Smith", "title": "In 'Above Ground,' Clint Smith uses poetry to confront the legacy of slavery", "question_index": 29, "text": "Clint Smith's new collection of poems is called \"Above Ground.\" After we take a short break, Justin Chang will review the film that won the grand jury prize for Best American Dramatic Film at this year's Sundance Film Festival. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's been such a pleasure. Thank you for having me."}
{"id": "1166808020", "date": "2023-03-31", "guest": "Cinco Paul", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' co-creator says series was onspired by a 'love affair' with musicals", "question_index": 0, "text": "Cinco Paul, welcome to FRESH AIR. Thank you so much for creating this series", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "UNIDENTIFIED GROUP #1: (As characters, singing) Schmigadoon, where the sun shines bright from July to June, and the air's as sweet as a macaroon - Schmigadoon. Schmigadoon, where it's warm and safe as"}
{"id": "1166808020", "date": "2023-03-31", "guest": "Cinco Paul", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' co-creator says series was onspired by a 'love affair' with musicals", "question_index": 1, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "UNIDENTIFIED GROUP #1: (As characters, singing) Schmigadoon, where the sun shines bright from July to June, and the air's as sweet as a macaroon - Schmigadoon. Schmigadoon, where it's warm and safe as"}
{"id": "1166808020", "date": "2023-03-31", "guest": "Cinco Paul", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' co-creator says series was onspired by a 'love affair' with musicals", "question_index": 2, "text": "How did you come up with the idea of a musical about people trapped in a musical set in the early 20th century?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", thank you for having me."}
{"id": "1166808020", "date": "2023-03-31", "guest": "Cinco Paul", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' co-creator says series was onspired by a 'love affair' with musicals", "question_index": 3, "text": "So the Cecily Strong character loves musicals. The Keegan-Michael Key character hates musicals. Why did you want him to hate musicals?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's kind of crazy. I had the idea for this almost 25 years ago, and it was while I was watching the movie \"An American Werewolf In London,\" of all things - one of my favorite movies. And it ope"}
{"id": "1166808020", "date": "2023-03-31", "guest": "Cinco Paul", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' co-creator says series was onspired by a 'love affair' with musicals", "question_index": 4, "text": "Oh, boy. You're trapped.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I thought it was really important. I mean, first of all, it's really funny to have someone who hates musicals be stuck in a musical, but also for him to be the eyes and ears of the people, unlik"}
{"id": "1166808020", "date": "2023-03-31", "guest": "Cinco Paul", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' co-creator says series was onspired by a 'love affair' with musicals", "question_index": 5, "text": "Some musicals have really corny scenes in them, and the kind of scene that always bores me is the picnic scene where it's like, this was a real nice clambake. I'm really glad we came. It's like, can we skip that? Can we skip that and get to the good stuff? And, you know, even, like, operas have, like, songs like that where there's, you know, like, a festival or, you know, a picnic or something. And, like, those are usually boring, too. And I never really understand the function that they serve. And you kind of have a song parodying that called \"Corn Puddin'.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was not a fan. He's become a little more of a fan. And, you know, I wouldn't say my wife hates musicals, but she does not, you know, embrace them in the way that I do. So it was really important fo"}
{"id": "1166808020", "date": "2023-03-31", "guest": "Cinco Paul", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' co-creator says series was onspired by a 'love affair' with musicals", "question_index": 6, "text": "And so the reason why they're singing about corn pudding is that it's their first morning in town, and they're sitting on the porch and about to have breakfast, and they're asked if they want some corn pudding, and they don't even know what corn pudding is. And then the town just starts singing about how great corn pudding is. So I'd like you to talk a little bit about what you think of those moments in musicals where you have to sing about food or a picnic or a clambake.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1166808020", "date": "2023-03-31", "guest": "Cinco Paul", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' co-creator says series was onspired by a 'love affair' with musicals", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean, \"Corn Puddin'\" came out of - initially I was thinking, what is the song that is most going to annoy Keegan's character?"}
{"id": "1166808020", "date": "2023-03-31", "guest": "Cinco Paul", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' co-creator says series was onspired by a 'love affair' with musicals", "question_index": 8, "text": "And the waitress delivering the corn pudding is the younger woman who's pursuing him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...The songs really should move the story forward in some way. And I think the worst example is \"Shipoopi\" from \"Music Man,\" which is - it brings everything to a grinding halt. And then this Marcellus"}
{"id": "1166808020", "date": "2023-03-31", "guest": "Cinco Paul", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' co-creator says series was onspired by a 'love affair' with musicals", "question_index": 9, "text": "Why don't we hear \"Corn Puddin'\"? And we'll also hear the Cecily Strong character kind of join in in a verse, much to the Keegan-Michael Key character's annoyance.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1166808020", "date": "2023-03-31", "guest": "Cinco Paul", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' co-creator says series was onspired by a 'love affair' with musicals", "question_index": 10, "text": "UNIDENTIFIED GROUP #2: (As characters, singing) My guy loves corn puddin' (ph). I got the recipe. So if he wants my puddin', he'll have to marry me. Oh, he'll have to marry me. You put the corn in the puddin' and the puddin' in the bowl. You put the bowl in your belly 'cause it's good for the soul. You put the corn in the puddin' and the puddin' in the bowl. You put the bowl in your belly 'cause it's good for the soul. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character, singing) Who wants corn puddin'? UNIDENTIFIED GROUP #2: (As characters, singing) We want corn puddin'. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character, singing) Who wants corn puddin'? UNIDENTIFIED GROUP #2: (As characters, singing) We want corn puddin'.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1166808020", "date": "2023-03-31", "guest": "Cinco Paul", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' co-creator says series was onspired by a 'love affair' with musicals", "question_index": 11, "text": "The music is kind of like a hoedown.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Melissa Gimble) OK, well, that one's on you. UNIDENTIFIED GROUP #2: (As characters, singing) Corn puddin', corn puddin', corn puddin', corn puddin', corn puddin', corn puddin'."}
{"id": "1166808020", "date": "2023-03-31", "guest": "Cinco Paul", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' co-creator says series was onspired by a 'love affair' with musicals", "question_index": 12, "text": "It just reminded me, too, that when I was in school, we had to learn some of that kind of dancing, you know, like square dancing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1166808020", "date": "2023-03-31", "guest": "Cinco Paul", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' co-creator says series was onspired by a 'love affair' with musicals", "question_index": 13, "text": "Yeah. It's like, why are we learning this? We live in Brooklyn. Like, what are you thinking?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That was part of the curriculum somehow."}
{"id": "1166808020", "date": "2023-03-31", "guest": "Cinco Paul", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' co-creator says series was onspired by a 'love affair' with musicals", "question_index": 14, "text": "I like that idea - the square dancing lobby.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess it was more appropriate for me growing up in Phoenix. I wonder if - is square dancing still taught in some schools? I feel like when my kids were little, they were still teaching square dancin"}
{"id": "1166808020", "date": "2023-03-31", "guest": "Cinco Paul", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' co-creator says series was onspired by a 'love affair' with musicals", "question_index": 15, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1166808020", "date": "2023-03-31", "guest": "Cinco Paul", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' co-creator says series was onspired by a 'love affair' with musicals", "question_index": 16, "text": "I want to get to another song. We all know that so many performers on Broadway historically have been gay, and it's only in recent years that they've been able to be out, and it's only recently that there are actually musicals about gay people who are out of the closet. So you have a few really funny references to, like, closeted gay people in musicals. One of the really funny songs - the mayor, who's played by Alan Cumming, is secretly gay, and it's a secret he's never disclosed to anybody. And he sings a song that kind of is a secret love kind of song, but...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2021 interview with Cinco Paul about \"Schmigadoon!,\" the musical comedy series he co-created and co-wrote. He also wrote all the songs. Season 2 of \"Schmig"}
{"id": "1166808020", "date": "2023-03-31", "guest": "Cinco Paul", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' co-creator says series was onspired by a 'love affair' with musicals", "question_index": 17, "text": "Because she has gaydar and no one in the town does.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, where he inadvertently reveals to Cecily's character that he's gay."}
{"id": "1166808020", "date": "2023-03-31", "guest": "Cinco Paul", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' co-creator says series was onspired by a 'love affair' with musicals", "question_index": 18, "text": "But the mayor's wife sings a song that's called \"He's A Queer One, That Man O' Mine.\" She has no clue that he's gay, but she knows that, you know, he's different from the other men. And usually in those songs, that's like, he's wonderful. He's so different from other men. But in this one, it's kind of like, hmm (ph), he's so different than other men. I want you to talk about writing this 'cause this is an example of a song that I don't think closely adheres to another song. It's a kind of - there's references to other songs in it, including \"You're A Queer One, Julie Jordan\" from - that's from \"Carousel,\" right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, exactly."}
{"id": "1166808020", "date": "2023-03-31", "guest": "Cinco Paul", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' co-creator says series was onspired by a 'love affair' with musicals", "question_index": 19, "text": "Yeah. So - but talk about writing this and what you wanted to do with it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's from \"Carousel.\""}
{"id": "1166808020", "date": "2023-03-31", "guest": "Cinco Paul", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' co-creator says series was onspired by a 'love affair' with musicals", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yeah. He's great in it. So this starts - this clip will start with Cecily Strong speaking. And I should say that the mayor's last name is Menlove - another little clue. OK, so here's \"He's A Queer One,\" and this is Ann Harada singing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And for her, it's all these really positive qualities. But also, really, in many ways, the mayor's story is at the heart of the show 'cause he is one of these characters that, back in the day, could"}
{"id": "1166808020", "date": "2023-03-31", "guest": "Cinco Paul", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' co-creator says series was onspired by a 'love affair' with musicals", "question_index": 21, "text": "That's music from \"Schmigadoon!,\" the loving satire of '40s and early 1950s musicals. And my guest, Cinco Paul, co-created the series, co-wrote it and wrote all the songs. Oh, that's really - it's a funny song, but it's also - it's a lovely song. It's a nice melody.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Florence Menlove, singing) Sometimes it may seem like he is too good to be true, like there's a man that I can't see just aching to break through. I wish I could free him so I could finally see hi"}
{"id": "1166808020", "date": "2023-03-31", "guest": "Cinco Paul", "title": "'Schmigadoon!' co-creator says series was onspired by a 'love affair' with musicals", "question_index": 22, "text": "Well, listen. Congratulations on \"Schmigadoon!\" Please do a Season 2, and it's been great to talk with you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, that was the intention. I never wanted the songs to be too jokey, if that makes - you know, I really wanted them, like, oh, that could genuinely have been a song sung in an undiscovered "}
{"id": "1167715957", "date": "2023-04-03", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "'Armageddon' shows how literal readings of the Bible's end times affect modern times", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. A lot of people have been nervously joking in the past couple of years that it seems like the End Times - with the pandemic, record-setting floods, hurricanes, tornadoes and fires, environmental crises, war and fears that democracies are becoming more authoritarian. For those who take the New Testament's Book of Revelation literally, they may actually believe this is the End Times. The End Times have been prophesied dating back to at least the time of Jesus, who preached the end was near. The description of the end in Revelation reads like a horror film, with fantastical, monstrous beasts and giant, surreal insects, as well as plagues, wars, a lake of fire and torture. That's what those who haven't accepted Jesus as the Messiah will face. Believers will rise to heaven to be with God. Revelation is the most controversial book in the New Testament. Many scholars think it shouldn't have been included in the Bible. My guest, Bart Ehrman, is one of the scholars who thinks Revelation presents a very disturbing and inconsistent vision of God. He explains why in his new book, \"Armageddon: What The Bible Really Says About The End.\" He writes that a literal reading of Revelation has created disastrous problems, including personal and psychological damage and has, quote, \"affected our world in ways you might not expect, involving carnage, U.S. foreign policy and the welfare of our planet,\" unquote. As his many readers know, he was an evangelical Christian in college and believed the end was near. He studied at the evangelical Moody Bible Institute. But while attending Princeton Theological Seminary, he stopped believing in the literal truth of the Bible. Eventually, he became an agnostic. But he's continued his work as a Bible scholar. He's the author of many books, including the bestseller \"Misquoting Jesus.\" He's a distinguished professor of religious studies at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill. Bart Ehrman, welcome back to FRESH AIR. It is always a pleasure to talk with you.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1167715957", "date": "2023-04-03", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "'Armageddon' shows how literal readings of the Bible's end times affect modern times", "question_index": 1, "text": "So let's talk about the basic story of the apocalypse as told in the Book of Revelation. What brings on the apocalypse and the second coming of Jesus?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you. Thank you very much. It's a pleasure to be here."}
{"id": "1167715957", "date": "2023-04-03", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "'Armageddon' shows how literal readings of the Bible's end times affect modern times", "question_index": 2, "text": "It really reads like the screenplay of, like, an action-horror film.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So that's the Book of Revelation in a nutshell."}
{"id": "1167715957", "date": "2023-04-03", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "'Armageddon' shows how literal readings of the Bible's end times affect modern times", "question_index": 3, "text": "You include in your book the passage from Revelation that describes the locusts. And it is very creepy and surreal. Do you want to just read that passage for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it does. And I think the thing is that most people understand where action-horror films are going, but most people have real trouble figuring out Revelation. It's really - it's one of these book"}
{"id": "1167715957", "date": "2023-04-03", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "'Armageddon' shows how literal readings of the Bible's end times affect modern times", "question_index": 4, "text": "That is surreal and brutal. And I'm wondering, do you think if this was written today that somebody would be sending John to a psychotherapist for a diagnosis and medication? And I don't mean to be flip about it, but this is the kind of paranoid, detailed story that some people come up with who are really seriously troubled. And my apologies to people who, you know, believe, in the rapture and the Second Coming. I don't mean to take away from their belief. But I'm just saying, today if somebody wrote that and took it seriously, they might be sent for psychiatric help.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So what happens in this account is that when the fifth angel blows his trumpet, there are these beasts that come up out of the Earth - locusts - that have the authority of scorpions, and they're told "}
{"id": "1167715957", "date": "2023-04-03", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "'Armageddon' shows how literal readings of the Bible's end times affect modern times", "question_index": 5, "text": "So the people who are saved from all these horrors on earth are the ones who are believers and have accepted Jesus as the Messiah, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And, you know, you could argue that it was bothersome back then, too, because a lot of this imagery is really very, very not just violent, but sometimes gratuitously violent and attributing this kin"}
{"id": "1167715957", "date": "2023-04-03", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "'Armageddon' shows how literal readings of the Bible's end times affect modern times", "question_index": 6, "text": "This emphasis on, you know, pearly gates and a city of gold and Christ himself as bejeweled in the image that John describes of him - it seems very counter to the anti-materialistic Jesus of the New Testament. How do you reconcile that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is the thing. This is this is really one of the surprising things about this. Two things that I'll say that are surprising about the book. One is that this view that there's going to be a rapture"}
{"id": "1167715957", "date": "2023-04-03", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "'Armageddon' shows how literal readings of the Bible's end times affect modern times", "question_index": 7, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Bible scholar Bart Ehrman, author of the new book \"Armageddon: What The Bible Really Says About The End.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I don't think you can reconcile it. A lot of people try to. And people always have. I mean, the reality is that in the Gospels, as you say, when Jesus talks about wealth, he's against it. He thinks "}
{"id": "1167715957", "date": "2023-04-03", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "'Armageddon' shows how literal readings of the Bible's end times affect modern times", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Bart Ehrman, author of the new book \"Armageddon: What The Bible Really Says About The End.\" He's a distinguished professor of religious studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill. You used to be an evangelical during your teens and college years. Did you take the Book of Revelation literally?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I don't think you can reconcile it. A lot of people try to. And people always have. I mean, the reality is that in the Gospels, as you say, when Jesus talks about wealth, he's against it. He thinks "}
{"id": "1167715957", "date": "2023-04-03", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "'Armageddon' shows how literal readings of the Bible's end times affect modern times", "question_index": 9, "text": "So was the addition of, like, nuclear weapons as part of the scenario, like, one of Hal Lindsey's innovations, so to speak, in his books?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", apart from the Bible. Oh, really? Yeah. And so this was a book that explained Revelation. And it explained - and the rest of the Bible - to show that it was predicting what was going to happen by th"}
{"id": "1167715957", "date": "2023-04-03", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "'Armageddon' shows how literal readings of the Bible's end times affect modern times", "question_index": 10, "text": "Can you name some political leaders in America who not only believed in the Book of Revelation, but who took Hal Lindsey's interpretation at face value?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would say it wasn't an innovation of his, but he's the one who really pushed it. The deal is that as - I try to explain in my book that throughout most of Christian history, to the surprise of reade"}
{"id": "1167715957", "date": "2023-04-03", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "'Armageddon' shows how literal readings of the Bible's end times affect modern times", "question_index": 11, "text": "Especially if you believe that you're one of the people who are going to be raptured.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, apparently Ronald Reagan did. He apparently actually consulted with Lindsey on occasion. And he and Caspar Weinberger, the secretary of defense, apparently thought that, you know, this is being "}
{"id": "1167715957", "date": "2023-04-03", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "'Armageddon' shows how literal readings of the Bible's end times affect modern times", "question_index": 12, "text": "OK. Well, let me reintroduce you again. My guest is Bible scholar Bart Ehrman, author of the new book \"Armageddon: What The Bible Really Says About The End.\" We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, you're going to be taken out of the world. That's not a problem. But even if you aren't taken out of the world, it'll just be seven more years before - you know, before the w"}
{"id": "1167715957", "date": "2023-04-03", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "'Armageddon' shows how literal readings of the Bible's end times affect modern times", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Bible scholar Bart Ehrman, author of the new book \"Armageddon: What The Bible Really Says About The End.\" His book interprets the Book of Revelation from a historical perspective and writes about what he finds very disturbing about the image of God in the book and how inconsistent it is with the Gospel's stories about Jesus. He thinks Revelation's depiction of the end times and the wars, plagues, beasts, locusts and conflagrations that will torment those who have not accepted Jesus as their Messiah has created disastrous problems, including personal and psychological consequences. Ehrman is a former evangelical. He's a distinguished professor of religious studies at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, and is the author of several bestselling books, including \"Misquoting Jesus\" and \"How Jesus Became God.\" Let's talk about the role of Israel in the narrative of the end times as described in the Book of Revelation. What has to happen in Israel before the end times are set up and Jesus returns?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. No, you're going to be taken out of the world. That's not a problem. But even if you aren't taken out of the world, it'll just be seven more years before - you know, before the w"}
{"id": "1167715957", "date": "2023-04-03", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "'Armageddon' shows how literal readings of the Bible's end times affect modern times", "question_index": 14, "text": "Which is a Muslim mosque.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One of the issues I deal with in my book is the historical question of why it is that American evangelicals are so supportive of the state of Israel. And I trace the history of it because it completel"}
{"id": "1167715957", "date": "2023-04-03", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "'Armageddon' shows how literal readings of the Bible's end times affect modern times", "question_index": 15, "text": "So one of the things that Trump did when he was president back in 2018 was move the U.S. embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. And one of the people who not only spoke at the ceremony for the opening of the embassy in Jerusalem, he actually gave the benediction, was Pastor John Hagee, who is the founder of Christians United for Israel, which is the kind of Christian evangelical pro-Israel group for all the reasons that you just mentioned. It's really all about the apocalypse and the Second Coming. So what does it say to you that Trump moved the embassy from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem? Was that because of lobbying from Christian Zionists like the group Christians United for Israel, CUFI?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There are Islamic sacred sites on the Temple Mount. And so for Israel to take over the Temple Mount means they've got to wipe out these Islamic holy sites. And that means that, you know, Israel has be"}
{"id": "1167715957", "date": "2023-04-03", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "'Armageddon' shows how literal readings of the Bible's end times affect modern times", "question_index": 16, "text": "So we've been talking about John Hagee, the Christian Zionist who founded CUFI, the acronym for Christians United for Israel. I interviewed him in 2006. And among the things he told me was that Hurricane Katrina was God's judgment on the city of New Orleans because, quote, \"there was going to be a homosexual parade on the Monday that the Katrina came. And the promise of that parade was that it was going to reach a level of sexuality never demonstrated before in any other gay pride parades.\" So Katrina was God's retribution because of this planned gay pride parade. So that's one of the things he believed. And I want to play an excerpt of his audiotape of sermons called \"Jerusalem Countdown to Crisis.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Trump, of course, very, very much wanted evangelical support. And so many of his policies, of course, are directed toward getting the evangelical vote. His opposition to abortion is the most famous on"}
{"id": "1167715957", "date": "2023-04-03", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "'Armageddon' shows how literal readings of the Bible's end times affect modern times", "question_index": 17, "text": "Among the things I want to point out in that is that he's talking about this, like, horrible war in Israel and nuclear weapons. And he's saying, this is the most thrilling prophetic message you've ever heard in your life. Sure, it's thrilling for the people he imagines, including himself, 'cause I'm sure he expects to get raptured. But, you know, how can you call thrilling anything that involves nuclear weapons and war?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In two minutes, let me tell you where we're going from here. This prophetic portrait paints the following sequence of event for the future. America and Europe become weakened and cannot respond to Isr"}
{"id": "1167715957", "date": "2023-04-03", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "'Armageddon' shows how literal readings of the Bible's end times affect modern times", "question_index": 18, "text": "Let's take another short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Bible scholar Bart Ehrman, author of the new book \"Armageddon: What The Bible Really Says About The End.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, right. I mean - and, you know, that's right. And, you know, he also, at one point, indicated that the reason for the Holocaust is that it was God's plan. God planned the Holocaust because that w"}
{"id": "1167715957", "date": "2023-04-03", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "'Armageddon' shows how literal readings of the Bible's end times affect modern times", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Bart Ehrman, author of the new book \"Armageddon: What The Bible Really Says About The End.\" He's a distinguished professor of religious studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and the author of many books interpreting the Bible. One of the things about the Book of Revelation is that there are so many references in pop culture that come out of it. And a lot of us don't even realize that it's from the Book of Revelation. Like, I saw the Ingmar Bergman classic film \"The Seventh Seal\" back in college. I've watched it several times since. It's a remarkable film that has a lot to do with, like, questioning God and a strange, like, religious cult, and playing chess with death is a famous scene. I didn't understand that \"The Seventh Seal\" was directly out of the Book of Revelation, or \"The Grapes Of Wrath\" - I didn't know that either - or \"A Thief In The Night\" or \"The Whore Of Babylon\" or \"The Lake Of Fire\" or \"The Pearly Gates Of Heaven.\" Why do you think that - as you said, so few people actually read the Book of Revelation because it's so mystifying and complicated, and a lot of it doesn't make easy-to-understand sense. Why do you think so many references in pop culture, in songs and movies and books have come out of that book?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, right. I mean - and, you know, that's right. And, you know, he also, at one point, indicated that the reason for the Holocaust is that it was God's plan. God planned the Holocaust because that w"}
{"id": "1167715957", "date": "2023-04-03", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "'Armageddon' shows how literal readings of the Bible's end times affect modern times", "question_index": 20, "text": "It's also very colorful. Like, the language in Revelation is colorful.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I know. And it's - you know, it's gotten more and more. I mean, especially, I think, since the 19 - since 1945, it's become even more of a part of popular culture because people realize that, in"}
{"id": "1167715957", "date": "2023-04-03", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "'Armageddon' shows how literal readings of the Bible's end times affect modern times", "question_index": 21, "text": "So a question you ask at the end of your book is, which Jesus do you model yourself on, the Jesus who was anti-materialistic, who said, turn the other cheek, or the Jesus who participates in this incredible wrath and retribution, vengeance, violence, bloodshed, plagues, catastrophes, lakes of fire? That's a really interesting question to ponder because - I mean, can you reconcile believing in both at the same time? And is that a question you asked yourself when you were still a believer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's hugely symbolic. And it's kind of ironic because the symbols really stand out and make you think that this is a literary genius. But one of the realities is that it's a very badly written book. T"}
{"id": "1167715957", "date": "2023-04-03", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "'Armageddon' shows how literal readings of the Bible's end times affect modern times", "question_index": 22, "text": "How are you seeing that expressed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I was a believer, I thought that God was both loving and just and that we could experience his love if we would turn to him, but if we didn't, then, necessarily, he had to implement his justice, "}
{"id": "1167715957", "date": "2023-04-03", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "'Armageddon' shows how literal readings of the Bible's end times affect modern times", "question_index": 23, "text": "Bart Ehrman, it's really been great to talk with you again. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there's a lot of violence being sponsored by conservative Christians who are in support of, well, taking over the government, for example, who are in support of all sorts of opposition to social"}
{"id": "1167715957", "date": "2023-04-03", "guest": "Bart Ehrman", "title": "'Armageddon' shows how literal readings of the Bible's end times affect modern times", "question_index": 24, "text": "Bart Ehrman's new book is called \"Armageddon: What the Bible Really Says About the End.\" After we take a short break, John Powers will review a new rom-com he says marks the arrival of a new wave of Black British talent. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it's my pleasure. I always enjoy it."}
{"id": "1168616957", "date": "2023-04-07", "guest": "Talking Heads", "title": "Remembering legendary music executive Seymour Stein, co-founder of Sire Records", "question_index": 0, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I remember that session, you know, like it was yesterday, and it was over 50 years ago. Syd was there and another record man was there as well. What I remember very clearly was there were a large amou"}
{"id": "1168616957", "date": "2023-04-07", "guest": "Talking Heads", "title": "Remembering legendary music executive Seymour Stein, co-founder of Sire Records", "question_index": 1, "text": "So how did you get to work for Syd Nathan?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he said, but what's right is right, you know? And one of the records actually became a hit. I can't remember - it might have been \"White Silver Sands\" by Don Rondo or something like that."}
{"id": "1168616957", "date": "2023-04-07", "guest": "Talking Heads", "title": "Remembering legendary music executive Seymour Stein, co-founder of Sire Records", "question_index": 2, "text": "So how old were you when you went to work with Syd Nathan at King Records full time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He invited me out to spend the summer with him. I was still in high school. I was 15, and I said, yeah, wow. And my parents were a bit - you know, my father was an Orthodox Jew and, you know, just did"}
{"id": "1168616957", "date": "2023-04-07", "guest": "Talking Heads", "title": "Remembering legendary music executive Seymour Stein, co-founder of Sire Records", "question_index": 3, "text": "Now, one of the things that Syd Nathan did for you after you started working with him at King Records was tell you to change your name. Your real last name was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Full time was 1961, '62. So I would have been 19 or just turning 20."}
{"id": "1168616957", "date": "2023-04-07", "guest": "Talking Heads", "title": "Remembering legendary music executive Seymour Stein, co-founder of Sire Records", "question_index": 4, "text": "And what was wrong with that in Syd Nathan's eyes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I was born with the name Steinbigle - Seymour Steinbigle."}
{"id": "1168616957", "date": "2023-04-07", "guest": "Talking Heads", "title": "Remembering legendary music executive Seymour Stein, co-founder of Sire Records", "question_index": 5, "text": "So - but you did change it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was too long. And he kept asking me to change it. And I didn't want to hurt my father's feelings. My father was the eldest son and both his brothers had changed their name, had shortened it, but he"}
{"id": "1168616957", "date": "2023-04-07", "guest": "Talking Heads", "title": "Remembering legendary music executive Seymour Stein, co-founder of Sire Records", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yes. Not everybody had phones at King Records. People shared phones. As much as three or four people could share a phone at one time. But there was a paging system, and the switchboard operator "}
{"id": "1168616957", "date": "2023-04-07", "guest": "Talking Heads", "title": "Remembering legendary music executive Seymour Stein, co-founder of Sire Records", "question_index": 7, "text": "So you got started at Billboard magazine. Do you ever miss the importance of the charts, the days when, like, Top 40 really meant something?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I was so - I almost started to cry. I was so embarrassed. And I changed my name. And it - I'm very glad that I did."}
{"id": "1168616957", "date": "2023-04-07", "guest": "Talking Heads", "title": "Remembering legendary music executive Seymour Stein, co-founder of Sire Records", "question_index": 8, "text": "What do you miss about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I miss it a lot."}
{"id": "1168616957", "date": "2023-04-07", "guest": "Talking Heads", "title": "Remembering legendary music executive Seymour Stein, co-founder of Sire Records", "question_index": 9, "text": "WNEW New York.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I miss all the the excitement. I mean, that's how I heard about Billboard. And there was this disc jockey long before rock 'n' roll, Martin Block."}
{"id": "1168616957", "date": "2023-04-07", "guest": "Talking Heads", "title": "Remembering legendary music executive Seymour Stein, co-founder of Sire Records", "question_index": 10, "text": "Make Believe Ballroom.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1168616957", "date": "2023-04-07", "guest": "Talking Heads", "title": "Remembering legendary music executive Seymour Stein, co-founder of Sire Records", "question_index": 11, "text": "Seymour Stein, a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. (Singing) It's Make Believe Ballroom time and free to everyone. Well, I would come back on Saturday mornings from the synagogue and and have my radio sort of under the pillow so my father cou"}
{"id": "1168616957", "date": "2023-04-07", "guest": "Talking Heads", "title": "Remembering legendary music executive Seymour Stein, co-founder of Sire Records", "question_index": 12, "text": "Seymour Stein, welcome back to FRESH AIR. In your book, you write, I'm a hitman, a record business entrepreneur. What I'm not is a producer like Phil Spector or Quincy Jones. I can't play any instrument. I can't operate a studio. My exact job description is A&R, artist and repertoire, the old showbusiness term for talent hunting. How do you think not being a musician has been both a shortcoming and an advantage for you?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're listening back to our interviews with Seymour Stein, the influential co-founder of Sire Records. He died Sunday. Terry Gross spoke with Stein again in 2018. He had just publis"}
{"id": "1168616957", "date": "2023-04-07", "guest": "Talking Heads", "title": "Remembering legendary music executive Seymour Stein, co-founder of Sire Records", "question_index": 13, "text": "You started in the record business at age 15, when Syd Nathan, the founder of King Records, convinced your father to allow you to spend summers in Cincinnati at King's headquarters.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that for me it's been somewhat of an advantage because what I listen to first and foremost are the songs. And I always feel that an artist as a performer can always get better and usuall"}
{"id": "1168616957", "date": "2023-04-07", "guest": "Talking Heads", "title": "Remembering legendary music executive Seymour Stein, co-founder of Sire Records", "question_index": 14, "text": "You were just really pivotal in the punk movement in America. You signed the Ramones, one of the first punk rock bands. How were you tipped off about them? How did you know to go hear them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no, that's not exactly correct. I started really going up to Billboard when I was 15 years old just to copy down the charts because I had kept the charts religiously from around - when I was abo"}
{"id": "1168616957", "date": "2023-04-07", "guest": "Talking Heads", "title": "Remembering legendary music executive Seymour Stein, co-founder of Sire Records", "question_index": 15, "text": "Do you have a favorite track from the Ramones among the records that you put out on Sire?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had heard about them from a number of people, but I think mostly from Danny Fields. And I had wanted to go see them a couple of times, but I was in England. And I came back particularly to see them."}
{"id": "1168616957", "date": "2023-04-07", "guest": "Talking Heads", "title": "Remembering legendary music executive Seymour Stein, co-founder of Sire Records", "question_index": 16, "text": "So let's hear \"Blitzkrieg Bop\" by the Ramones on an album released by Sire Records, which is the label co-created by my guest Seymour Stein, who still has Sire Records.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I suppose, you know, what always comes to mind immediately is \"Blitzkrieg Bop.\" There are so many of their songs that I like, but \"Blitzkrieg Bop,\" I think, is my favorite."}
{"id": "1168616957", "date": "2023-04-07", "guest": "Talking Heads", "title": "Remembering legendary music executive Seymour Stein, co-founder of Sire Records", "question_index": 17, "text": "So that's the Ramones, one of the great bands signed by my guest, Seymour Stein of Sire Records. So - yeah, go ahead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Hey, ho. Let's go. Hey, ho. Let's go. Hey, ho. Let's go. Hey, ho. Let's go. They're forming in a straight line. They're going through a tight wind. The kids are losing their minds - the blit"}
{"id": "1168616957", "date": "2023-04-07", "guest": "Talking Heads", "title": "Remembering legendary music executive Seymour Stein, co-founder of Sire Records", "question_index": 18, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wait. One correction - I don't still have Sire Records. About a month ago, I left. And..."}
{"id": "1168616957", "date": "2023-04-07", "guest": "Talking Heads", "title": "Remembering legendary music executive Seymour Stein, co-founder of Sire Records", "question_index": 19, "text": "So let's get back to the Ramones. It was very hard for you to get any kind of radio play for the Ramones because why? And we're talking a time when there's - like, there's AM, and there's FM. And FM is more album-oriented then. And AM is still, like, singles. So at the risk of asking the obvious, why was it so hard to get the Ramones some airplay?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know - yes. I left Sire. And I left Warner Bros. And I'm now interested in pursuing new objectives."}
{"id": "1168616957", "date": "2023-04-07", "guest": "Talking Heads", "title": "Remembering legendary music executive Seymour Stein, co-founder of Sire Records", "question_index": 20, "text": "So one of the things you tried to do to get your bands airplay was to tell your promotion people, don't use the word punk. Use the word new wave. Why did you do that? And was it effective?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think they were kind of misunderstood and not fully appreciated. And that was in the United States. But when we finally got them out of the United States and, you know, touring in England, they were"}
{"id": "1168616957", "date": "2023-04-07", "guest": "Talking Heads", "title": "Remembering legendary music executive Seymour Stein, co-founder of Sire Records", "question_index": 21, "text": "So let's talk about Talking Heads. You heard them kind of accidentally the first time around. Correct me if I'm wrong. But you went to hear new songs by the Ramones at a club.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that really came about with the Talking Heads because they were describing them as punk, and they were the furthest thing from punk. I said, look; New York used to be the absolute center of the "}
{"id": "1168616957", "date": "2023-04-07", "guest": "Talking Heads", "title": "Remembering legendary music executive Seymour Stein, co-founder of Sire Records", "question_index": 22, "text": "Talking Heads was opening for them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1168616957", "date": "2023-04-07", "guest": "Talking Heads", "title": "Remembering legendary music executive Seymour Stein, co-founder of Sire Records", "question_index": 23, "text": "And that's how you heard them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1168616957", "date": "2023-04-07", "guest": "Talking Heads", "title": "Remembering legendary music executive Seymour Stein, co-founder of Sire Records", "question_index": 24, "text": "Johnny Ramone.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it was a surprise opening. They weren't supposed to be the opening act. But I had heard about Talking Heads. But they were not spending that much time in New York. They were very early involved in"}
{"id": "1168616957", "date": "2023-04-07", "guest": "Talking Heads", "title": "Remembering legendary music executive Seymour Stein, co-founder of Sire Records", "question_index": 25, "text": "So I want to play a track from their first album that you released, \"Talking Heads: 77.\" And this is \"Psycho Killer,\" which is such a great track.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Johnny Ramone, yes. And so I came down. I investigated what the opening band was going to be. And they were a band called The Shirts, which I had seen and liked but not liked enough to sign. And so I "}
{"id": "1168616957", "date": "2023-04-07", "guest": "Talking Heads", "title": "Remembering legendary music executive Seymour Stein, co-founder of Sire Records", "question_index": 26, "text": "OK. So let's hear Talking Heads. And this is \"Psycho Killer.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Fabulous."}
{"id": "1168616957", "date": "2023-04-07", "guest": "Talking Heads", "title": "Remembering legendary music executive Seymour Stein, co-founder of Sire Records", "question_index": 27, "text": "So of the early tracks that you recorded with her, do you have a favorite?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he owned Island Records and ran it - had turned her down, and other people had turned her down. I couldn't believe it because to me, it was a no-brainer. And it was a great day in my life."}
{"id": "1168616957", "date": "2023-04-07", "guest": "Talking Heads", "title": "Remembering legendary music executive Seymour Stein, co-founder of Sire Records", "question_index": 28, "text": "Well, why don't we hear \"Borderline\"? Seymour Stein, thank you so much for talking with us. And thank you for signing the bands that you signed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that the song I liked best and was really the song that became the one that launched her most was \"Borderline.\" I loved it. But I liked everything that she did."}
{"id": "1168618593", "date": "2023-04-07", "guest": "Joni Mitchell", "title": "Joni Mitchell receives Library of Congress Gershwin Prize for Popular Song", "question_index": 0, "text": "Well, let's hear this song, \"The Magdalene Laundries,\" written by - written and performed by Joni Mitchell and featured on her new compilation, \"The Beginning Of Survival.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The thing that sparked the song was my - I have a property in Canada by the ocean, and I have a caretaker there who is a Dane (ph). And he said to me one day, you know, Joni - he said, you're a basica"}
{"id": "1168618593", "date": "2023-04-07", "guest": "Joni Mitchell", "title": "Joni Mitchell receives Library of Congress Gershwin Prize for Popular Song", "question_index": 1, "text": "That's Joni Mitchell recorded in 1994, and that song is featured on her new compilation, \"The Beginning Of Survival.\" Now, my understanding is that you're not writing or performing now that you're on a...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I was an unmarried girl. I'd just turned 27 when they sent me to the sisters for the way men looked at me. Branded as a Jezebel, I knew I was not bound for heaven. I'd be cast in shame into "}
{"id": "1168618593", "date": "2023-04-07", "guest": "Joni Mitchell", "title": "Joni Mitchell receives Library of Congress Gershwin Prize for Popular Song", "question_index": 2, "text": "...Hiatus from writing and performing. Do you miss it? I mean, like, are you singing at home even though you're not performing on stage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "1168618593", "date": "2023-04-07", "guest": "Joni Mitchell", "title": "Joni Mitchell receives Library of Congress Gershwin Prize for Popular Song", "question_index": 3, "text": "Can we explain what you mean by that? When - in 1964, you were pregnant out of wedlock, and you - I guess this would have been a big scandal at the time, yes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I can think of nothing to raise my voice in song to at this particular time. I don't want to write social criticism. I don't want to write angry songs. I'm waiting for something to happen, I guess"}
{"id": "1168618593", "date": "2023-04-07", "guest": "Joni Mitchell", "title": "Joni Mitchell receives Library of Congress Gershwin Prize for Popular Song", "question_index": 4, "text": "Right. I'd like to talk a little bit about how you think your voice has changed in the years that you've performed. You used to sing a lot in a high kind of falsetto voice, and then your voice really deepened. Part of that was age, probably part of that was cigarettes. You know, one of the songs on the new CD \"Dreamland\" is a fairly recent version - I think it's from 2000 - of \"Both Sides Now.\" So I thought it would be interesting to hear that orchestral version from 2000 - you have a full orchestra behind you - back to back with the original version and hear not only how your voice changed, but also how you interpret the song differently. It's - I think it's a darker song. It's a slower song...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was in 1965. I gave birth to a girl. The traditional way of dealing with it in those days was the child would be taken away, and you didn't see her, and that made it - and placed up for adoption. B"}
{"id": "1168618593", "date": "2023-04-07", "guest": "Joni Mitchell", "title": "Joni Mitchell receives Library of Congress Gershwin Prize for Popular Song", "question_index": 5, "text": "...And - when you sing it later, and you've also changed some of the melody around, you're kind of almost, like, improvising within the melody in the 2000 version.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But here's the other thing..."}
{"id": "1168618593", "date": "2023-04-07", "guest": "Joni Mitchell", "title": "Joni Mitchell receives Library of Congress Gershwin Prize for Popular Song", "question_index": 6, "text": "Why don't we hear these two versions of \"Both Sides Now\" back to back just because I think it's really interesting to compare what you do with the song both times? So why don't we give that a listen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But here's the other thing. It's like I have - you know, Wayne Shorter comes in and plays with me. He's got a tenor, and he's got an alto horn. And depending on the piece of music, he uses the tenor, "}
{"id": "1168618593", "date": "2023-04-07", "guest": "Joni Mitchell", "title": "Joni Mitchell receives Library of Congress Gershwin Prize for Popular Song", "question_index": 7, "text": "That's Joni Mitchell. We heard the original version of \"Both Sides Now\" and the 2000 version, which is included on her new anthology, \"Dreamland.\" It always struck me that \"Both Sides Now\" was the kind of song about, you know, growing older and wiser and therefore seeing things a little differently. And, of course, you wrote the song when you were really pretty darn young", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Rows and flows of angel hair and ice cream castles in the air and feather canyons everywhere - I've looked at clouds that way. But now they only block the sun. They rain and they snow on eve"}
{"id": "1168618593", "date": "2023-04-07", "guest": "Joni Mitchell", "title": "Joni Mitchell receives Library of Congress Gershwin Prize for Popular Song", "question_index": 8, "text": ". And the 2000 version of it is when you really are older and wiser. And you're looking - and you're singing that song that you wrote, you know, years ago when you were so much younger. And I was wondering if the song meant something different to you when you recorded it in 2000 than when you first recorded it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Rows and flows of angel hair and ice cream castles in the air and feather canyons everywhere - I've looked at clouds that way. But now they only block the sun. They rain and they snow on eve"}
{"id": "1169205866", "date": "2023-04-11", "guest": "Mary Louise Kelly", "title": "NPR host Mary Louise Kelly reflects on juggling motherhood and chasing the news", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Mary Louise Kelly, is a host of All Things Considered and prior to that, reported on national security for NPR for about two decades. Like every working mother, she's had to juggle her work and parenting. The juggling act has been especially complicated for her. She spent time away from home reporting from around the world, sometimes in war zones, reporting from Iraq while covering a visit by the secretary of defense. She was on a Black Hawk helicopter about to take off when she got a call from her younger son's school nurse. He was 4 at the time. The nurse said Kelly's son was very sick, and she needed to come right away, which of course, was impossible. Her new memoir is about the choices she's made about her work and home life, including the time she quit NPR so she could spend more time with her children. When her oldest son was turning 18 and preparing to graduate high school and leave home for college, she thought about all the soccer games, concerts, science fairs, field trips, et cetera, that she'd missed over the years, always telling herself she'd do better next year. But for her older son, it was the final year she could make good on that promise, and she pledged that she would. That's where the book begins. The year had a few unexpected and upsetting twists. Her father died after fighting cancer for 17 years, and her husband decided he wanted to separate. Her book is called \"It. Goes. So. Fast.: The Year Of No Do-Overs.\" Mary Louise Kelly, welcome to FRESH AIR. I have such admiration for you. It's a pleasure to talk with you.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1169205866", "date": "2023-04-11", "guest": "Mary Louise Kelly", "title": "NPR host Mary Louise Kelly reflects on juggling motherhood and chasing the news", "question_index": 1, "text": "I know. We've never met, never spoken. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, thank you. The admiration is mutual, and it's a pleasure. I don't - can't believe this is true, that I've never actually spoken to you before. This is the first time. So it's a pleasure to fina"}
{"id": "1169205866", "date": "2023-04-11", "guest": "Mary Louise Kelly", "title": "NPR host Mary Louise Kelly reflects on juggling motherhood and chasing the news", "question_index": 2, "text": "...This is great. As you point out in your book, most books about juggling parenting and work are aimed at young parents. And you wrote your memoir when you turned 50, and your boys were in their teens, and your older boy was about to go to college. What was it that you wanted to witness, to be there for, for your teenage boys...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know."}
{"id": "1169205866", "date": "2023-04-11", "guest": "Mary Louise Kelly", "title": "NPR host Mary Louise Kelly reflects on juggling motherhood and chasing the news", "question_index": 3, "text": "...As opposed to when you were the mother of young children?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1169205866", "date": "2023-04-11", "guest": "Mary Louise Kelly", "title": "NPR host Mary Louise Kelly reflects on juggling motherhood and chasing the news", "question_index": 4, "text": "Well, I mean, you're still hosting All Things Considered.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think one of the things that has surprised me is that I thought this whole balancing act, juggle, leaning in, leaning out - I thought this was supposed to get easier as my kids got older. And "}
{"id": "1169205866", "date": "2023-04-11", "guest": "Mary Louise Kelly", "title": "NPR host Mary Louise Kelly reflects on juggling motherhood and chasing the news", "question_index": 5, "text": "The games are still starting at 4:00 during that year. So you still couldn't go.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I am."}
{"id": "1169205866", "date": "2023-04-11", "guest": "Mary Louise Kelly", "title": "NPR host Mary Louise Kelly reflects on juggling motherhood and chasing the news", "question_index": 6, "text": "A dramatic example of what you've been up against in terms of balancing work and parenting, something I referred to in the introduction - it's the time you were in Iraq covering a visit there by the secretary of defense, and you were on the Black Hawk helicopter in Iraq about to take off when you got the call from your younger son's school nurse that he was super sick and that you had to get there right away, which, of course, you couldn't. In addition to spending part of that night in tears, what did you do after?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I organized to take six weeks of leave, and I started writing this book during those weeks. And I had this idyllic image in my head that I was finally going to have figured out, like, how to have it a"}
{"id": "1169205866", "date": "2023-04-11", "guest": "Mary Louise Kelly", "title": "NPR host Mary Louise Kelly reflects on juggling motherhood and chasing the news", "question_index": 7, "text": "What did you miss and how did your identity change during those years you weren't working?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did spend that night in tears, even after I knew that he was OK, that his dad had made it, that all was going to be fine. I - yeah, they had assigned us to sleep, the Pentagon press corps, in these "}
{"id": "1169205866", "date": "2023-04-11", "guest": "Mary Louise Kelly", "title": "NPR host Mary Louise Kelly reflects on juggling motherhood and chasing the news", "question_index": 8, "text": "Oh, no.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, being a journalist is in my bones. It is what I have always wanted to do. It is - like, since I was a kid. I started a newspaper on my street, and we used to, you know, cover things. I would a"}
{"id": "1169205866", "date": "2023-04-11", "guest": "Mary Louise Kelly", "title": "NPR host Mary Louise Kelly reflects on juggling motherhood and chasing the news", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "? Is it somebody else's turn yet? But, yeah, I've always wanted to do this. And I edited my high school paper and did my college paper and have always thought this was the path for me. And being away "}
{"id": "1169205866", "date": "2023-04-11", "guest": "Mary Louise Kelly", "title": "NPR host Mary Louise Kelly reflects on juggling motherhood and chasing the news", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Mary Louise Kelly, a host of All Things Considered. Her new memoir is called \"It. Goes. So. Fast.: The Year Of No Do-Overs.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...To check Twitter and see, like, where is Snowden? Have they pulled him off the flight? Is he hiding out at Sheremetyevo Airport in Moscow?"}
{"id": "1169205866", "date": "2023-04-11", "guest": "Mary Louise Kelly", "title": "NPR host Mary Louise Kelly reflects on juggling motherhood and chasing the news", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Mary Louise Kelly, a host of All Things Considered. Her new memoir is called \"It. Goes. So. Fast.: The Year Of No Do-Overs.\" It's about the difficulties she's faced and the tough choices she's made trying to balance work and parenting. Did you ever worry - and I don't mean - I'm not endorsing this sentiment. But did you ever worry that you'd be setting a bad example as a woman doing really high-level national security reporting and, like, you know, traveling around the world, going to war zones that - were you're afraid that somebody would say, see, that's why you can't hire a woman for this kind of position? There's going to be the maternity leaves. And then she's going to quit and spend more time with her children and then do it again. You know what I'm saying?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...To check Twitter and see, like, where is Snowden? Have they pulled him off the flight? Is he hiding out at Sheremetyevo Airport in Moscow?"}
{"id": "1169205866", "date": "2023-04-11", "guest": "Mary Louise Kelly", "title": "NPR host Mary Louise Kelly reflects on juggling motherhood and chasing the news", "question_index": 12, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God. Yes. When my kids were very young and I was there for younger and way more junior in my career, I didn't want to be mommy tracked. And I knew I would be. I had sat in meetings. I remember "}
{"id": "1169205866", "date": "2023-04-11", "guest": "Mary Louise Kelly", "title": "NPR host Mary Louise Kelly reflects on juggling motherhood and chasing the news", "question_index": 13, "text": "While you were writing this book, you found a medical file from when your younger son was born, Alexander. And you knew he had profound problems when he was born. He had a stroke. It was a breech birth. It was a very difficult birth both for Alexander and for you. And you knew he'd been in the - a neonatal ICU for a long time. So when you came across this file and read it, you were really just so alarmed by what you read. Tell us some of the things that were most alarming.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thought, buddy, are you kidding me? Yeah, just the support for working parents trying to juggle it all was not then what it is now. And it is not perfect now. But I will say, now that I am a little "}
{"id": "1169205866", "date": "2023-04-11", "guest": "Mary Louise Kelly", "title": "NPR host Mary Louise Kelly reflects on juggling motherhood and chasing the news", "question_index": 14, "text": "There's a scene you write about in the book where you're at a restaurant in Chicago where you and your son are scouting out the University of Chicago. It's one of those college tour trips. And he ends up...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "at a certain point in the delivery and hadn't witnessed it firsthand. And I had not fully grasped that he was born not alive. And his Apgar score, which is the score that doctors use to measure, you k"}
{"id": "1169205866", "date": "2023-04-11", "guest": "Mary Louise Kelly", "title": "NPR host Mary Louise Kelly reflects on juggling motherhood and chasing the news", "question_index": 15, "text": "...Going there. So you're at a restaurant while you're touring the university, and it's a nice restaurant. You're having a good dinner. He wants to leave early to be with his friends. And he asks you if you'll be OK walking the two blocks back to the hotel by yourself. You had just gone through the latest round of hostile environment training...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1169205866", "date": "2023-04-11", "guest": "Mary Louise Kelly", "title": "NPR host Mary Louise Kelly reflects on juggling motherhood and chasing the news", "question_index": 16, "text": "...Which journalists are - have to go through before going to war zones and conflict zones. So it's just really kind of funny and endearing that after going through learning how to, like, protect yourself with tourniquets and rappelling down with a hotel sheet from...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1169205866", "date": "2023-04-11", "guest": "Mary Louise Kelly", "title": "NPR host Mary Louise Kelly reflects on juggling motherhood and chasing the news", "question_index": 17, "text": "...A hotel that's under attack, that he's worried about you being safe walking to the hotel. Tell us more about the hostile environment training that you have to go through.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1169205866", "date": "2023-04-11", "guest": "Mary Louise Kelly", "title": "NPR host Mary Louise Kelly reflects on juggling motherhood and chasing the news", "question_index": 18, "text": "What have you had to use?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. NPR, to its credit, gets everyone who is likely to head into the field into situations that may be dangerous to do hostile environment training. I think the latest requirements are we have to re"}
{"id": "1169205866", "date": "2023-04-11", "guest": "Mary Louise Kelly", "title": "NPR host Mary Louise Kelly reflects on juggling motherhood and chasing the news", "question_index": 19, "text": "Oh, so one of you is walking backwards.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, they teach you things like if you're in a protest or any kind of just giant crowd where things are getting dicey - first of all, you try never to do that alone. Second of all, like, if you're with"}
{"id": "1169205866", "date": "2023-04-11", "guest": "Mary Louise Kelly", "title": "NPR host Mary Louise Kelly reflects on juggling motherhood and chasing the news", "question_index": 20, "text": "Let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Mary Louise Kelly, and her new memoir is called \"It. Goes. So. Fast.: The Year Of No Do-Overs.\" And it's about the difficulties she's faced and the tough choices she's made trying to balance work and parenting. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Like, I've filed from some - you know, from war zones and, you know, airstrips under mortar fire and, you know, aircraft carriers in combat zones. And yeah, I think I'll manage to handle this. But "}
{"id": "1169205866", "date": "2023-04-11", "guest": "Mary Louise Kelly", "title": "NPR host Mary Louise Kelly reflects on juggling motherhood and chasing the news", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Mary Louise Kelly. She's been a host of All Things Considered since 2018 and, before that, covered national security for NPR. Her new memoir, \"It. Goes. So. Fast.: The Year Of No Do-Overs,\" is about the difficulties she's faced and the tough choices she's made trying to balance work and parenting. It's been an especially difficult balancing act because her work has required covering breaking news and reporting from around the world, including war zones. We were talking about hostile environment reporting. And I want to talk about a different kind of hostile environment, which is an office, in particular Mike Pompeo's office. One of the kind of famous interviews that you did was interviewing Mike Pompeo in January of 2020.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Like, I've filed from some - you know, from war zones and, you know, airstrips under mortar fire and, you know, aircraft carriers in combat zones. And yeah, I think I'll manage to handle this. But "}
{"id": "1169205866", "date": "2023-04-11", "guest": "Mary Louise Kelly", "title": "NPR host Mary Louise Kelly reflects on juggling motherhood and chasing the news", "question_index": 22, "text": "And this was an interview that got very contentious because he kept avoiding answering your questions. And you had two things you wanted to talk to him about - the U.S relationship with Iran and also Ukraine. So just set the stage for us about what you needed to know. Like, what was going on in the news that you needed to talk to him about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct - 2020."}
{"id": "1169205866", "date": "2023-04-11", "guest": "Mary Louise Kelly", "title": "NPR host Mary Louise Kelly reflects on juggling motherhood and chasing the news", "question_index": 23, "text": "And one of the things you wanted to ask him about was Marie Yovanovitch, who had been the U.S. ambassador to Ukraine. And when she was not kind of cooperating with Rudy Giuliani's efforts to find dirt on Joe Biden's son, Hunter Biden, she was recalled.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had been asking for months for an interview with Mike Pompeo as Secretary of State, and I had gone back and forth with his press team. In booking the interview, they told me I would have 10 minutes "}
{"id": "1169205866", "date": "2023-04-11", "guest": "Mary Louise Kelly", "title": "NPR host Mary Louise Kelly reflects on juggling motherhood and chasing the news", "question_index": 24, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This whole shadow diplomacy campaign..."}
{"id": "1169205866", "date": "2023-04-11", "guest": "Mary Louise Kelly", "title": "NPR host Mary Louise Kelly reflects on juggling motherhood and chasing the news", "question_index": 25, "text": "And Mike Pompeo did not prevent that from happening.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...In Ukraine. Yeah."}
{"id": "1169205866", "date": "2023-04-11", "guest": "Mary Louise Kelly", "title": "NPR host Mary Louise Kelly reflects on juggling motherhood and chasing the news", "question_index": 26, "text": "OK. So we're going to play the part of your 10-minute interview, which ended up being, I think, a nine-minute interview because...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct. And she was ousted from her position. At the time that I sat down with Pompeo, she was still working at the State Department, but she had been ousted as ambassador and was testifying about ev"}
{"id": "1169205866", "date": "2023-04-11", "guest": "Mary Louise Kelly", "title": "NPR host Mary Louise Kelly reflects on juggling motherhood and chasing the news", "question_index": 27, "text": "...It was cut short from his side. So here's an excerpt of Mary Louise Kelly's interview with Mike Pompeo, then-Secretary of State, from January 24, 2020. And after the interview, we'll hear her talking about the interview with Ari Shapiro on All Things Considered, also from January 24, 2020. And I just think this is a masterful interview. So let's hear it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It was cut short."}
{"id": "1169205866", "date": "2023-04-11", "guest": "Mary Louise Kelly", "title": "NPR host Mary Louise Kelly reflects on juggling motherhood and chasing the news", "question_index": 28, "text": "So that was Mary Louise Kelly speaking with Ari Shapiro after her January of 2020 interview with then-Secretary of State Mike Pompeo. I want to know what it was like for you when he was hollering at you after the interview in his living room 'cause he had asked to speak with you. So his aide ushered you in there. Then he started using the F-word and saying, do you think Americans care about F-ing Ukraine? Can you even find Ukraine on an F-ing map? What was it like to have the secretary of state not only hollering at you, but using the F-word?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We have reached out to the State Department to let them know we plan to report this coda to the interview, and we have not yet heard back."}
{"id": "1169205866", "date": "2023-04-11", "guest": "Mary Louise Kelly", "title": "NPR host Mary Louise Kelly reflects on juggling motherhood and chasing the news", "question_index": 29, "text": "But, you know, here's what I'm really wondering. After the secretary of state lies about you and shouts at you, uses the F-word at you, but mostly lies about you, how do you trust anything that he says after that? How do you trust how he handles diplomacy and reports on that diplomacy after that? If he lied about you, how do you trust anything he says?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was surreal. It - it's a moment I will not soon forget. I remember feeling, again, as someone who's reported from a lot of countries that do not enjoy a constitutional protection of free speech and"}
{"id": "1169205866", "date": "2023-04-11", "guest": "Mary Louise Kelly", "title": "NPR host Mary Louise Kelly reflects on juggling motherhood and chasing the news", "question_index": 30, "text": "Well, let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Mary Louise Kelly, a host of All Things Considered who also covered national security for NPR for many years. Her new memoir is called \"It. Goes. So. Fast.: The Year Of No Do-Overs.\" And it's about balancing work life and her life as a parent. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I don't know that that's the way I ever frame it. I'm not, you know, going into - whether it's Pompeo or any other official from any administration, I'm not basing my reporting and coverage "}
{"id": "1169205866", "date": "2023-04-11", "guest": "Mary Louise Kelly", "title": "NPR host Mary Louise Kelly reflects on juggling motherhood and chasing the news", "question_index": 31, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Mary Louise Kelly, a host of NPR's All Things Considered and now the author of the new memoir \"It. Goes. So. Fast.: The Year of No Do-Overs,\" about the tough choices she's made trying to balance work life and parenting. One of the things you write about in your memoir is hearing loss, and it's a pretty major amount of hearing loss that you have. Many people are embarrassed about getting hearing aids because they think of it as a sign of old age and they don't want to appear old. Of course, a lot of hearing aids are so small you can't really even see them anymore in somebody's ear. But you were in your 40s when you started wearing hearing aids. How did you feel about it? Were you embarrassed? Were you reluctant to get them because you thought it would make a bad impression and people would think of you as old?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I don't know that that's the way I ever frame it. I'm not, you know, going into - whether it's Pompeo or any other official from any administration, I'm not basing my reporting and coverage "}
{"id": "1169205866", "date": "2023-04-11", "guest": "Mary Louise Kelly", "title": "NPR host Mary Louise Kelly reflects on juggling motherhood and chasing the news", "question_index": 32, "text": "How much does your hearing loss and the hearing aids interfere with work now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean, there is a stigma around them that there just isn't around needing glasses. You know, I am in my early 50s now. I got hearing aids about a decade ago, in my early 40s. And none of my fri"}
{"id": "1169205866", "date": "2023-04-11", "guest": "Mary Louise Kelly", "title": "NPR host Mary Louise Kelly reflects on juggling motherhood and chasing the news", "question_index": 33, "text": "So now in your life, what's juggling parenting and work like? Because your oldest is in college and your youngest is probably preparing to go, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very little. That is thanks in part to the amazing team that I work with that has helped me figure out some workarounds. There are certain things I have to do differently from my co-anchors here and m"}
{"id": "1169205866", "date": "2023-04-11", "guest": "Mary Louise Kelly", "title": "NPR host Mary Louise Kelly reflects on juggling motherhood and chasing the news", "question_index": 34, "text": "But at the same time, on one of your reporting trips, a fairly recent one, you were, like, the oldest person of the team...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I'm about to live this - the year of no do-overs all over again because my youngest is soon finishing up his junior year of high school. I'm doing college visits with him. And we're about to do "}
{"id": "1169205866", "date": "2023-04-11", "guest": "Mary Louise Kelly", "title": "NPR host Mary Louise Kelly reflects on juggling motherhood and chasing the news", "question_index": 35, "text": "...By a couple of decades.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1169205866", "date": "2023-04-11", "guest": "Mary Louise Kelly", "title": "NPR host Mary Louise Kelly reflects on juggling motherhood and chasing the news", "question_index": 36, "text": "And you ask yourself, am I getting too old for this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1169205866", "date": "2023-04-11", "guest": "Mary Louise Kelly", "title": "NPR host Mary Louise Kelly reflects on juggling motherhood and chasing the news", "question_index": 37, "text": "And when will I know that it's time to stop doing that kind of reporting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1169205866", "date": "2023-04-11", "guest": "Mary Louise Kelly", "title": "NPR host Mary Louise Kelly reflects on juggling motherhood and chasing the news", "question_index": 38, "text": "Well, Mary Louise Kelly, thank you so much for coming on our show. It's been a pleasure to meet you. Because like we said at the beginning, we've never met or spoken before.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I don't know what the answer to that is. That was a question that flitted through my mind on a train in Ukraine right before, like, days before, the war broke out. And we were headed into Donbas i"}
{"id": "1169205866", "date": "2023-04-11", "guest": "Mary Louise Kelly", "title": "NPR host Mary Louise Kelly reflects on juggling motherhood and chasing the news", "question_index": 39, "text": "And for me. Mary Louise Kelly is a host of All Things Considered and author of the new memoir, \"It. Goes. So. Fast.\" After we take a short break, TV critic David Bianculli will review the latest episode of HBO's \"Succession.\" It was so good - definitely worthy of a standalone review. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Never before. Thank you so much. This has been a pleasure, Terry."}
{"id": "1169464852", "date": "2023-04-12", "guest": "Sandeep Jauhar", "title": "A doctor reflects on the challenges of caring for a parent with Alzheimer's", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. It seems like most people know someone who has Alzheimer's or another form of dementia - a grandparent, parent, spouse, partner, friend. For my guest, Dr. Sandeep Jauhar. It was his father who had Alzheimer's. It was also his mother, who had a form of dementia caused by Parkinson's disease. Dr. Jauhar's memoir, \"My Father's Brain,\" is about witnessing his parents' dementia from his perspective as a doctor, a son, sibling and caregiver. There were several times Dr. Jauhar, his sister and his brother, who is also a doctor, disagreed about the best treatment for their parents, including when the time was right for hospice and when to let their father go. Dr. Jauhar also writes about his quest to understand his father's brain and the brains of other patients afflicted with dementia. He says dementia remains the only chronic and widespread medical scourge for which there are no effective treatments. Dr. Jauhar is the director of the heart failure program at Long Island Jewish Medical Center. He was born in India and immigrated to the U.S with his family when he was 8. They were allowed in under a new immigration law under the category of scientists and academics of exceptional ability. His father was a scientist who ran a wheat genetics lab and was a fellow of the American Association for the Advancement of Science. Sandeep Jauhar welcome to FRESH AIR. It's great to have you back again. And it's a book I think will help a lot of people. Alzheimer's isn't just a memory disease. In its final stage, it leads to death. Can you explain why?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1169464852", "date": "2023-04-12", "guest": "Sandeep Jauhar", "title": "A doctor reflects on the challenges of caring for a parent with Alzheimer's", "question_index": 1, "text": "What were the first signs you noticed that your father was having cognitive problems?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Alzheimer's ravages the brain, as you know. I mean, it causes degeneration in many different parts of the brain. And one of the goals for me in understanding my father's journey, and my journey "}
{"id": "1169464852", "date": "2023-04-12", "guest": "Sandeep Jauhar", "title": "A doctor reflects on the challenges of caring for a parent with Alzheimer's", "question_index": 2, "text": "When you tried to point out to your father that he was having memory problems and cognition problems, he kept excusing it and denying it. How would he deny it? And apparently that's actually a symptom of dementia, is that you don't know that you're not yourself, and you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It happened fairly early on - I mean, before we knew that he had a disease. I'd say probably back in maybe 2012, he would call me and say that, you know, people at work wanted him to publish two paper"}
{"id": "1169464852", "date": "2023-04-12", "guest": "Sandeep Jauhar", "title": "A doctor reflects on the challenges of caring for a parent with Alzheimer's", "question_index": 3, "text": "...Deny it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1169464852", "date": "2023-04-12", "guest": "Sandeep Jauhar", "title": "A doctor reflects on the challenges of caring for a parent with Alzheimer's", "question_index": 4, "text": "So you made sure your father had a cognitive test, and it showed that he had mild cognitive impairment. What does that mean? Was the doctor able to do anything for it besides saying mild cognitive impairment?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So I think there are a couple of things. One is that I think a lot of people think that developing memory problems is normal. And so when I would tell him, Dad, you know, look, do you remember "}
{"id": "1169464852", "date": "2023-04-12", "guest": "Sandeep Jauhar", "title": "A doctor reflects on the challenges of caring for a parent with Alzheimer's", "question_index": 5, "text": "There are no good medications for Alzheimer's because researchers don't even know the cause. I mean, there's theories. There are theories that have been debunked. Talk a little bit about why there aren't good medications yet.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's interesting, you know, when he gave me that diagnosis, you know, even as a doctor, I didn't really know what it meant. I'm a cardiologist. And, of course, I knew a little bit about dementia. I ha"}
{"id": "1169464852", "date": "2023-04-12", "guest": "Sandeep Jauhar", "title": "A doctor reflects on the challenges of caring for a parent with Alzheimer's", "question_index": 6, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Dr. Sandeep Jauhar. His new memoir is called \"My Father's Brain.\" We'll be back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, Alzheimer's really remains a mystery. You know, I write in the book about how Alois Alzheimer, who was a psychiatrist, you know, first sort of discovered the underlying - what he thought wer"}
{"id": "1169464852", "date": "2023-04-12", "guest": "Sandeep Jauhar", "title": "A doctor reflects on the challenges of caring for a parent with Alzheimer's", "question_index": 7, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Dr. Sandeep Jauhar, author of the new memoir \"My Father's Brain: Life In The Shadow Of Alzheimer's.\" It's about how Alzheimer's transformed his father and their relationship. It's also about what researchers know so far about Alzheimer's. One of the issues you had with your father is, you know, in addition to memory lapses, he became disagreeable, argumentative, argumentative and disagreeable with you. And you write, I loved him, cared for him and hated him, too. I want you to talk about the hated him too part.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, Alzheimer's really remains a mystery. You know, I write in the book about how Alois Alzheimer, who was a psychiatrist, you know, first sort of discovered the underlying - what he thought wer"}
{"id": "1169464852", "date": "2023-04-12", "guest": "Sandeep Jauhar", "title": "A doctor reflects on the challenges of caring for a parent with Alzheimer's", "question_index": 8, "text": "He called her a two-bit w****.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it was really, really hard. You know, my father and I always had a very close relationship. He was always, you know, a very serious guy, but he didn't really have much of a temper. And Alzheimer"}
{"id": "1169464852", "date": "2023-04-12", "guest": "Sandeep Jauhar", "title": "A doctor reflects on the challenges of caring for a parent with Alzheimer's", "question_index": 9, "text": "Because your father eventually started losing so much memory and so much sense of who he was, you and your siblings found yourselves sometimes just ignoring him if you were all, say, at the table together.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, he - I mean, he sometimes became violent. I mean, he threw orange juice in her face. He tried to hit her with, you know, a hanger. I mean, you know, this was not him, and dealing with "}
{"id": "1169464852", "date": "2023-04-12", "guest": "Sandeep Jauhar", "title": "A doctor reflects on the challenges of caring for a parent with Alzheimer's", "question_index": 10, "text": "And you felt really bad about that. I mean, there were times, too, that you were in the middle of a conversation or an argument with him that was important, that was not finished yet, but you had to go and show up at the hospital. You had patients waiting for you. So that kind of decision about how to break away - I mean, at that point, you can't be patient. Like, you have a responsibility to your patients, you know, to the people who are sick, who - you're their doctor, you're their cardiologist. So how would you reconcile that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1169464852", "date": "2023-04-12", "guest": "Sandeep Jauhar", "title": "A doctor reflects on the challenges of caring for a parent with Alzheimer's", "question_index": 11, "text": "How many years did your father need a caregiver before he died?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a balancing act every single day. You know, how much time do I spend with my father? How much time do I spend at work? And I'm not alone in that, you know. There are - what? - 15 to 20 million "}
{"id": "1169464852", "date": "2023-04-12", "guest": "Sandeep Jauhar", "title": "A doctor reflects on the challenges of caring for a parent with Alzheimer's", "question_index": 12, "text": "So even though you and your siblings made major decisions with consensus, did you divide up responsibilities for caregiving? Like, was one of you looking after finances and another being the lead person in coordinating the caregiving or being more physically present with your father?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I would say five. Five, yeah, but before that, my mother, who was declining from Parkinson's - she had caregivers who really weren't there for my father. But after she died in 2016, then her las"}
{"id": "1169464852", "date": "2023-04-12", "guest": "Sandeep Jauhar", "title": "A doctor reflects on the challenges of caring for a parent with Alzheimer's", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well, we need to take another break here. So let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Dr. Sandeep Jauhar. His new memoir is called \"My Father's Brain.\" Dr. Jauhar is a cardiologist, but he tried to understand what was going on with his father's Alzheimer's, both on a personal level and on a scientific level. We'll be back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah. All those things - I mean, we were lucky that we were three siblings. And there's so much work to be done, and we really divided up the tasks. So my sister lived in Minneapolis, so my brot"}
{"id": "1169464852", "date": "2023-04-12", "guest": "Sandeep Jauhar", "title": "A doctor reflects on the challenges of caring for a parent with Alzheimer's", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Dr. Sandeep Jauhar, author of the new memoir \"My Father's Brain: Life In The Shadow Of Alzheimer's.\" It's about how Alzheimer's transformed his father and their relationship. It's also about what researchers know so far about Alzheimer's, its causes, its impact on the brain and why there is not yet an effective treatment. Dr. Jauhar is a cardiologist who directs the heart failure program at Long Island Jewish Medical Center. One of the issues you had to deal with - and your siblings because you have two siblings had to deal with it, too - is if your father was delusional, whether it meant thinking he could do something that he couldn't or thinking that the caregiver was actually stealing his money or, you know, was a whore or whatever, you had to decide whether to go along with his delusions because you couldn't really shake them, you know, or try to convince him, no, you're wrong. It's dangerous for you to do that. Here's why you can't do that anymore. And I think it's fair to say that you and your siblings often disagreed about what the best approach to that was. Can you talk about where you stood on that and how, if at all, your perception of what to do changed over time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah. All those things - I mean, we were lucky that we were three siblings. And there's so much work to be done, and we really divided up the tasks. So my sister lived in Minneapolis, so my brot"}
{"id": "1169464852", "date": "2023-04-12", "guest": "Sandeep Jauhar", "title": "A doctor reflects on the challenges of caring for a parent with Alzheimer's", "question_index": 15, "text": "Which is what you ended up doing eventually.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, this is a debate that all caregivers have, you know, caring for family members with dementia is how much do you tell the truth? I came from it initially from the perspective of a doctor "}
{"id": "1169464852", "date": "2023-04-12", "guest": "Sandeep Jauhar", "title": "A doctor reflects on the challenges of caring for a parent with Alzheimer's", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, the goal was to make it possible for her to stay without your father accusing her of things. And the only way to do that was to say, oh, she's working for free. So, you know, that lie enabled him to have care and enabled the caregiver to stay without feeling as threatened.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. I did. Because, you know, in the end, I realized that it just wasn't worth it."}
{"id": "1169464852", "date": "2023-04-12", "guest": "Sandeep Jauhar", "title": "A doctor reflects on the challenges of caring for a parent with Alzheimer's", "question_index": 17, "text": "You have two siblings, a brother and a sister, and there were times when you strenuously disagreed about what kind of assistance your father needed and when he needed it. And so, like, the first threshold for assistance is like, when was it time to get a caregiver? And then it was like, should it be a caregiver or should it be assisted living? What was the agreement that you had with your siblings about how a decision would finally be made? Did you all have to finally agree on the action to take?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Right. So, you know, you have to - I came to eventually understand. And this may be just common sense for a lot of caregivers, but for me as a doctor sort of trained in a certain way of thinkin"}
{"id": "1169464852", "date": "2023-04-12", "guest": "Sandeep Jauhar", "title": "A doctor reflects on the challenges of caring for a parent with Alzheimer's", "question_index": 18, "text": "Let's talk about the disagreement about IV fluids at the end, when he was in hospice. First of all, it was a home hospice or a hospice institution?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, my elder brother had sort of this policy - he said, look, we have to have consensus over these big decisions. So he and my sister decided that once the caregiver left, that my father had"}
{"id": "1169464852", "date": "2023-04-12", "guest": "Sandeep Jauhar", "title": "A doctor reflects on the challenges of caring for a parent with Alzheimer's", "question_index": 19, "text": "So the question was to continue giving him IV fluids, which would prolong his life, because if you don't have fluid - if you're not eating and you don't have fluids, the fluids will prolong your life. And I think your brother and sister felt like it's past the point where you should prolong your father's life. You're just prolonging his suffering. The hospice nurse agreed with your siblings, but you wanted to continue the IV and maybe even explore the possibility of antibiotics and further blood tests. Why did you want to keep doing that despite your siblings and the hospice nurse thinking that was a bad idea?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was at home."}
{"id": "1169464852", "date": "2023-04-12", "guest": "Sandeep Jauhar", "title": "A doctor reflects on the challenges of caring for a parent with Alzheimer's", "question_index": 20, "text": "At the end...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think there were a couple of reasons. I mean, one is I didn't want to lose my father. You know, I wanted him to stay on this earth, you know, for as long as possible, even in the state he was in. Bu"}
{"id": "1169464852", "date": "2023-04-12", "guest": "Sandeep Jauhar", "title": "A doctor reflects on the challenges of caring for a parent with Alzheimer's", "question_index": 21, "text": "...In hospice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "At the end."}
{"id": "1169464852", "date": "2023-04-12", "guest": "Sandeep Jauhar", "title": "A doctor reflects on the challenges of caring for a parent with Alzheimer's", "question_index": 22, "text": "By the time he was in hospice, though, what was he capable of?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, his perceptions, or my perception of what he thought was meaningful, changed. You know, when he wrote that letter, that advanced directive, he was a well-known, world-class scientist running"}
{"id": "1169464852", "date": "2023-04-12", "guest": "Sandeep Jauhar", "title": "A doctor reflects on the challenges of caring for a parent with Alzheimer's", "question_index": 23, "text": "Let's take another break here, and then there's more I want to talk with you about. If you're just joining us, my guest is Dr. Sandeep Jauhar. His new memoir is called \"My Father's Brain.\" We'll be back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I took him out to lunch just four days before we enrolled him in hospice. He just took a tremendous downturn. It was very, very quick. And I didn't know what caused it. And for me, that was ve"}
{"id": "1169464852", "date": "2023-04-12", "guest": "Sandeep Jauhar", "title": "A doctor reflects on the challenges of caring for a parent with Alzheimer's", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Dr. Sandeep Jauhar, author of the new memoir \"My Father's Brain: Life In The Shadow Of Alzheimer's.\" It's about how Alzheimer's transformed his father and their relationship. Dr. Jauhar is a cardiologist who directs the heart failure program at Long Island Jewish Medical Center. Did you feel at all a sense of relief when your father died, that his struggle was over, that your struggles with him were over?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I took him out to lunch just four days before we enrolled him in hospice. He just took a tremendous downturn. It was very, very quick. And I didn't know what caused it. And for me, that was ve"}
{"id": "1169464852", "date": "2023-04-12", "guest": "Sandeep Jauhar", "title": "A doctor reflects on the challenges of caring for a parent with Alzheimer's", "question_index": 25, "text": "Do you think the ordeal with your father - and with your mother, who had Parkinson's - changed you as a doctor? You have many terminal patients.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. I did. You know, it was very difficult. It was a very difficult struggle. Watching him go through that was the most difficult thing I've ever been through. It's the hardest journey I've ever ta"}
{"id": "1169464852", "date": "2023-04-12", "guest": "Sandeep Jauhar", "title": "A doctor reflects on the challenges of caring for a parent with Alzheimer's", "question_index": 26, "text": "Yeah. When your father was near death and you and your siblings were trying to figure out whether to respect his DNR, his living will that said he didn't want any extreme measures used to save his life, you wanted to investigate further what could be the cause of his decline. You wanted him to hold on longer. Do you have a DNR? And have you rewritten it since your father's death? And have you rethought how seriously you want someone to take it? If, for instance, like your father, you ended up with dementia and the quality of your life had changed, your ability to remember had changed, but you still seem to be able to find some joy in life, like, how do you know how you're going to feel? And how do you express your concerns in a living will or a DNR?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I think I'm more there. I'm more with the patients now than I, maybe, used to be. I have more sympathy for the struggles at the end of life, the sort of emotional struggles. You know, be"}
{"id": "1169464852", "date": "2023-04-12", "guest": "Sandeep Jauhar", "title": "A doctor reflects on the challenges of caring for a parent with Alzheimer's", "question_index": 27, "text": "How come you don't?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Do I have a written DNR? No. I probably should. And..."}
{"id": "1169464852", "date": "2023-04-12", "guest": "Sandeep Jauhar", "title": "A doctor reflects on the challenges of caring for a parent with Alzheimer's", "question_index": 28, "text": "Do you not want your children to have to be caregivers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. I still feel like death is a ways away. But I think what I do have is, after having gone through this experience with my father, is I've expressed to the people closest to me that if I d"}
{"id": "1169464852", "date": "2023-04-12", "guest": "Sandeep Jauhar", "title": "A doctor reflects on the challenges of caring for a parent with Alzheimer's", "question_index": 29, "text": "Well, Dr. Jauhar, I want to thank you so much for talking with us and for sharing your story with us. You've been through a lot. And thank you for telling us about it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. You know, it involves so much difficulty and pain and sacrifice that, you know, I don't want that. You know, my parents grew up in a culture where sons took care of aging parents. And it's just pa"}
{"id": "1169464852", "date": "2023-04-12", "guest": "Sandeep Jauhar", "title": "A doctor reflects on the challenges of caring for a parent with Alzheimer's", "question_index": 30, "text": "Dr. Sandeep Jauhar is the author of the new memoir \"My Father's Brain: Life In The Shadow Of Alzheimer's.\" Dr. Jauhar is a cardiologist and the director of the Heart Failure program at Long Island Jewish Medical Center. After we take a short break, John Powers will review the new film \"How To Blow Up A Pipeline.\" It's a political thriller about eco-sabotage. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much, Terry. It was great being with you."}
{"id": "1169677158", "date": "2023-04-13", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "Will Fox News pay for spreading lies about voter fraud?", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. A trial is scheduled to begin Monday that is the highest-profile case so far to test whether allies of Donald Trump will be held accountable for spreading falsehoods about the 2020 election. That's how my guest, Jeremy Peters, describes the $1.6 billion defamation suit filed against Fox News by Dominion Voting Systems, which manufactures voting machines that were used in several battleground states in the 2020 presidential election. Dominion claims that Fox's hosts and commentators falsely stated that Dominion was part of a conspiracy to steal votes from Donald Trump with the larger goal of stealing the election. Fox's defense revolves around the First Amendment. This case is likely to impact the future of Fox, other media organizations, First Amendment law and elections. What makes it especially fascinating is the documents that were released as part of the lawsuit's filings, including internal emails and messages which show that many Fox hosts and executives didn't believe the claims of voter fraud that they broadcast on Fox. Jeremy Peters has been reporting on the case. He covers the media and its intersection with politics, law and culture for The New York Times. He's also the author of the book \"Insurgency: How Republicans Lost Their Party And Got Everything They Ever Wanted.\" We recorded our interview yesterday morning. Jeremy Peters, welcome to FRESH AIR. Just give us an overview, a brief overview of why this case is so important. What's at stake?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1169677158", "date": "2023-04-13", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "Will Fox News pay for spreading lies about voter fraud?", "question_index": 1, "text": "On what grounds is Dominion suing Fox?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In the largest sense, it's that very few people have been held to account for the widespread lies that swirled around the 2020 presidential election. No player as significant as Fox News in our politi"}
{"id": "1169677158", "date": "2023-04-13", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "Will Fox News pay for spreading lies about voter fraud?", "question_index": 2, "text": "Well, just recently, Shasta County, Calif., which is a very conservative county, decided to stop using Dominion voting machines, and it seems like that was influenced by the conspiracy theories. So that would be an example of - a very recent example of Dominion losing clients as a result of these false conspiracy theories.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They are suing for $1.6 billion in damages, claiming that the lies told on the air by Fox guests like Sidney Powell, Rudy Giuliani and hosts like Lou Dobbs, Maria Bartiromo and Tucker Carlson - that t"}
{"id": "1169677158", "date": "2023-04-13", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "Will Fox News pay for spreading lies about voter fraud?", "question_index": 3, "text": "Let's hear an example of what people were saying on the Fox airwaves. And this is an interview on Maria Bartiromo's show. She's interviewing Sidney Powell, who was one of the chief purveyors of the conspiracy theory that Dominion was part of a conspiracy to steal the election from Trump. And Powell, as I said, was a legal adviser to Trump. She was a guest several times on Bartiromo's Fox show. And here's an example of what she said while they were talking about Dominion, and Bartiromo speaks first.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, and that's part of what Dominion will argue if this gets to the damages phase, if the jury in Delaware finds that Fox did act with this legal term called actual malice, which is required to win a"}
{"id": "1169677158", "date": "2023-04-13", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "Will Fox News pay for spreading lies about voter fraud?", "question_index": 4, "text": "OK, so that was Sidney Powell on Maria Bartiromo's show on Fox News November 8, 2020. So that was just - the election was November 3, so that's just a few days after the election. Can you interpret what she's talking about, for instance, when she says that voting machines were stopped in the middle of an election to assess the situation? Like, what are they talking about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, obviously, they have invested in it for their own reasons and are using it to commit this fraud to steal votes. I think they've even stolen them from other Democrats in their own party who shoul"}
{"id": "1169677158", "date": "2023-04-13", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "Will Fox News pay for spreading lies about voter fraud?", "question_index": 5, "text": "Before we move on from that clip, I just want to fact-check another thing that Sidney Powell said, and this was about Nancy Pelosi and Dianne Feinstein. The Associated Press, the AP, did a fact-check on that and said it's all false. A former aide to Pelosi has represented Dominion as a lobbyist, but so have lobbyists who have worked for Republicans, and claims that Feinstein's husband, Richard Blum, holds a stake in Dominion are baseless. So I just want to get that on the record. So there's something really interesting about who the source was for some of Sidney...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's so preposterous, Terry. And I think what they're talking about were instances in which some municipalities just stopped counting because it was late, and the vote counters tabulators needed to go"}
{"id": "1169677158", "date": "2023-04-13", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "Will Fox News pay for spreading lies about voter fraud?", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yes, for some of Sidney Powell's claims. And there were signs that she was mentally unstable. Tell us about this source, Marlene Bourne, who claimed to be a tech analyst.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, we should talk about that."}
{"id": "1169677158", "date": "2023-04-13", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "Will Fox News pay for spreading lies about voter fraud?", "question_index": 7, "text": "Me neither.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, again, this is a really significant piece of Dominion's case because it shows that they acted recklessly. A jury could conclude after seeing this email from this source that no one reading it woul"}
{"id": "1169677158", "date": "2023-04-13", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "Will Fox News pay for spreading lies about voter fraud?", "question_index": 8, "text": "Can I add a couple of other things she said?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But it's clear as day that a person like that is unreliable, mentally unstable. I think if I had forwarded that email to your producers saying that this was a source for my story, I would never be app"}
{"id": "1169677158", "date": "2023-04-13", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "Will Fox News pay for spreading lies about voter fraud?", "question_index": 9, "text": "She said she sees what others don't see and hears what others don't hear and that it appears that she was shot in the back after giving the FBI a tip.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, please."}
{"id": "1169677158", "date": "2023-04-13", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "Will Fox News pay for spreading lies about voter fraud?", "question_index": 10, "text": "It appears that she was shot in the back", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1169677158", "date": "2023-04-13", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "Will Fox News pay for spreading lies about voter fraud?", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1169677158", "date": "2023-04-13", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "Will Fox News pay for spreading lies about voter fraud?", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, we need to take a break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jeremy Peters. He's covering the Dominion defamation suit against Fox News. He covers the media and its intersection with politics, law and culture for The New York Times. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, it's just nuts. And that's the kind of language that people at Fox started to use to describe Sidney Powell. They called her crazy. They called her nuts. They called her things that I wi"}
{"id": "1169677158", "date": "2023-04-13", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "Will Fox News pay for spreading lies about voter fraud?", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Jeremy Peters, who has been covering the defamation suit filed against Fox News by Dominion Voting Systems. Dominion voting machines were used in several battleground states in the 2020 presidential election. Dominion is alleging that Fox hosts and commentators knowingly made false statements about Dominion being part of a conspiracy to steal votes from Trump and give them to Biden, resulting in stealing the election from Trump. Jeremy Peters is covering the case. He covers the media and its intersection with politics, law and culture for The New York Times. What is Fox's defense?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, it's just nuts. And that's the kind of language that people at Fox started to use to describe Sidney Powell. They called her crazy. They called her nuts. They called her things that I wi"}
{"id": "1169677158", "date": "2023-04-13", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "Will Fox News pay for spreading lies about voter fraud?", "question_index": 14, "text": "One of the cases that Fox wanted to make was, hey, we were just covering the news. These stories were in the news. We were covering them. But the judge already knocked down that argument.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Fox is, after this week in court, going to be able to mount a less robust First Amendment defense than it would like to. The judge in this case has now ruled twice that the facts are so uncontested"}
{"id": "1169677158", "date": "2023-04-13", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "Will Fox News pay for spreading lies about voter fraud?", "question_index": 15, "text": "Is it unusual for a judge before the actual trial to say these kinds of arguments are out of bounds, I won't accept them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And that really limits Fox's ability to mount the kind of legal defense that it wanted to mount. In court before the judge, in their legal proceedings, in interviews with me, Fox's lawyers said t"}
{"id": "1169677158", "date": "2023-04-13", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "Will Fox News pay for spreading lies about voter fraud?", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, we need to take another break here. So let me reintroduce you. My guest is Jeremy Peters. He's a reporter for The New York Times who covers the intersection of media, politics, culture and law. And we're going to talk more about the defamation lawsuit filed against Fox News by Dominion Voting Systems after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So lawyers in cases like this go back and forth about what the jury will be allowed to hear. That's pretty standard. What's not very common is what happened to Fox when the judge issued what's called "}
{"id": "1169677158", "date": "2023-04-13", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "Will Fox News pay for spreading lies about voter fraud?", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Jeremy Peters, who's been covering the defamation lawsuit filed against Fox News by Dominion Voting Systems, whose voting machines were used in some battleground states in the 2020 presidential election. Jeremy Peters has been covering the lawsuit. It goes to trial Monday. Dominion is alleging that Fox hosts and commentators knowingly made false statements about Dominion being part of a conspiracy to steal votes from Trump and give them to Biden, resulting in stealing the election from Trump. Another argument Fox has made is it was commentators who were making these statements, not news. So they've kind of argued both sides, that we were just covering the news. But they've also argued, no, no, it was commentators, not reporters, who were making these claims.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So lawyers in cases like this go back and forth about what the jury will be allowed to hear. That's pretty standard. What's not very common is what happened to Fox when the judge issued what's called "}
{"id": "1169677158", "date": "2023-04-13", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "Will Fox News pay for spreading lies about voter fraud?", "question_index": 18, "text": "One of the reporters on Fox reported on a press conference held by Rudy Giuliani and Sidney Powell, two of Trump's legal advisers, and they were talking about conspiracies to steal the election from Trump. She reported on the press conference and fact-checked it and showed that the conspiracy theories being floated were factually wrong. What consequences did she face for that report?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that's part of their First Amendment defense. They have tried to say that, look, you know, what Tucker Carlson was saying is protected commentary. What Sean Hannity was saying - you know, same th"}
{"id": "1169677158", "date": "2023-04-13", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "Will Fox News pay for spreading lies about voter fraud?", "question_index": 19, "text": "So part of what makes this case so important and fascinating is the texts and emails and the depositions that have been made public, and we know now that what Fox hosts and commentators said in public on the air about Trump and about the conspiracies to steal the election are very different from what they said in private to their fellow colleagues. So let's start with Tucker Carlson. He's been a big defender of Trump on the air. But in private messages, he called Trump a demonic force, a destroyer - this was in a text with his producer - and he privately called Powell a nut. He said, I tried to make the White House disavow her, which they obviously should have done long before. He ridiculed claims about the plot to steal the election as shockingly reckless and absurd in a text message in November of 2020. So what are some of the things he did on the air that are counter to what he said in private to colleagues?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Her name is Kristin Fisher. She no longer works at Fox. She left the network in large part because of this incident. After she fact-checked that press conference on the air, she received an angry phon"}
{"id": "1169677158", "date": "2023-04-13", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "Will Fox News pay for spreading lies about voter fraud?", "question_index": 20, "text": "Another thing about Tucker Carlson - and he also trades emails with his producers in January. There's one that you mentioned from January 4 in which he said, we're very close to being able to ignore Trump most nights. I truly can't wait. I hate him passionately. And then on January 7 - so this is the day after the attack on the Capitol - Tucker Carlson's producer wrote about his fears of more chaos and said, the Trump anger spiral is vicious. And Carlson responded, that's for sure - deadly. We've got two weeks left. We can do this - meaning two weeks until Trump is out of office and Biden becomes president. We've only got two weeks left. We can do this. So not only do what he and guests said on his show contradict those private messages, he got exclusive access to, like - what? - thousands of hours of video from January 6 and reedited it in a way to make it seem like these were kind of quiet tourists. They were, like, acting like quiet tourists passing through the White House.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, Tucker Carlson even told - that text message you just referred to is a text message he sent to Sidney Powell telling her, you know, show us the evidence. And at one point in November 2020, Tucker"}
{"id": "1169677158", "date": "2023-04-13", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "Will Fox News pay for spreading lies about voter fraud?", "question_index": 21, "text": "These are the rioters who broke into the Capitol. How does anybody square that? I don't know that that's relevant to the actual, to the defamation lawsuit. But what does it say about Tucker Carlson and Fox?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1169677158", "date": "2023-04-13", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "Will Fox News pay for spreading lies about voter fraud?", "question_index": 22, "text": "Well, we need to take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jeremy Peters. He's covering the Dominion defamation suit against Fox News. He covers the media and its intersection with politics, law and culture for The New York Times. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It says that Tucker Carlson is completely disingenuous when it comes to the type of commentary he provides his audience. He tells them what he thinks they want to hear, even if he doesn't believe that"}
{"id": "1169677158", "date": "2023-04-13", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "Will Fox News pay for spreading lies about voter fraud?", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Jeremy Peters, who has been covering the defamation suit filed against Fox News by Dominion Voting Systems. Dominion voting machines were used in several battleground states in the 2020 presidential election. Dominion is alleging that Fox hosts and commentators knowingly made false statements about Dominion being part of a conspiracy to steal votes from Trump and give them to Biden, resulting in stealing the election from Trump. Jeremy Peters is covering the case. He covers the media and its intersection with politics, law and culture for The New York Times. So I just want to get to one more thing about Sidney Powell. Lou Dobbs was one of the big purveyors of the conspiracy theory on Fox News. He hosted his own show on Fox Business News. And Dobbs' producer said that he believed that Sidney Powell, one of Trump's legal advisers, was, quote, \"doing LSD and cocaine and heroin and shrooms.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It says that Tucker Carlson is completely disingenuous when it comes to the type of commentary he provides his audience. He tells them what he thinks they want to hear, even if he doesn't believe that"}
{"id": "1169677158", "date": "2023-04-13", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "Will Fox News pay for spreading lies about voter fraud?", "question_index": 24, "text": "A strong expression of skepticism. Yet when Lou Dobbs had Powell on his show a few days after that message, he described Sidney Powell as one of the country's leading appellate attorneys, which is surely not true. So of course, the question is, if people inside FOX - some executives, hosts - didn't believe the conspiracy theories, why were they broadcasting them? And the answer has to do with ratings. Tell us about how ratings and the fear of losing viewers to even more conservative networks like Newsmax and OAN - One America News Network - how that figured into their programming plan.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1169677158", "date": "2023-04-13", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "Will Fox News pay for spreading lies about voter fraud?", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well, getting back to Rupert Murdoch and what he said behind the scenes. In an email, he said - and this was after January 6 - he said Trump insisting the election being stolen and convincing 25% of Americans was a huge disservice to the country, pretty much a crime, inevitable it blew up on January 6. Best we don't mention his name unless essential, and certainly don't support him. We have to respect people of principle. And if it comes to the Senate, don't take sides. I know he's being over demonized, but he brought it on himself. That seems like evidence - right? - to be used in the defamation case.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So one thing that's always been true about Fox News is that after a Republican loses the White House, its ratings dip. I mean, this happened in 2008 after Obama won election. It happened in 2012 after"}
{"id": "1169677158", "date": "2023-04-13", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "Will Fox News pay for spreading lies about voter fraud?", "question_index": 26, "text": "Well, let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jeremy Peters, who's covering the Dominion defamation lawsuit against Fox News for The New York Times. Peters covers media and its intersection with politics, law and culture for the Times. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it is. It's something that Dominion cited in its presentation to the judge when they were arguing the summary judgment phase of the case. It's definitely something I expect to come up at trial, es"}
{"id": "1169677158", "date": "2023-04-13", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "Will Fox News pay for spreading lies about voter fraud?", "question_index": 27, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Jeremy Peters, who's covering the defamation lawsuit filed against Fox News by Dominion Voting Systems. He's covering it for The New York Times, where he covers the intersection of media with politics, law and culture. One of the things that happened really recently is that Dominion went to the judge and said, we want access to more of Rupert Murdoch's private messages, because when - during the period of disclosure, we didn't realize how big a role Murdoch played in Fox News and in deciding what was going to be covered and how it was going to be covered. Tell us about this recent development.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it is. It's something that Dominion cited in its presentation to the judge when they were arguing the summary judgment phase of the case. It's definitely something I expect to come up at trial, es"}
{"id": "1169677158", "date": "2023-04-13", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "Will Fox News pay for spreading lies about voter fraud?", "question_index": 28, "text": "So what might the consequences be for Fox News if it loses this defamation suit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So this is something to watch over the next few weeks as the trial progresses. Fox initially tried to downplay the role that not just Rupert Murdoch has, but that Lachlan Murdoch has in running Fox Ne"}
{"id": "1169677158", "date": "2023-04-13", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "Will Fox News pay for spreading lies about voter fraud?", "question_index": 29, "text": "And you mean literally pay...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think at this point, the realization has set in at Fox that they are quite likely to lose, or at the very least, they shouldn't be surprised if they lose. So they are looking already at how they wou"}
{"id": "1169677158", "date": "2023-04-13", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "Will Fox News pay for spreading lies about voter fraud?", "question_index": 30, "text": "...Like with money? Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Literally pay."}
{"id": "1169677158", "date": "2023-04-13", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "Will Fox News pay for spreading lies about voter fraud?", "question_index": 31, "text": "So I think you mentioned this earlier, but some First Amendment lawyers who always defend the media against defamation are siding with Dominion against Fox. What are their concerns in this case?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I think the questions of what that means for Trump, his base and the larger conservative media ecosystem are much more complicated because I just honestly don't know how - I mean, we know th"}
{"id": "1169677158", "date": "2023-04-13", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "Will Fox News pay for spreading lies about voter fraud?", "question_index": 32, "text": "Well, do the First Amendment lawyers who are siding with Dominion also not want the First Amendment to protect baseless conspiracy theories and not protect media that promotes baseless conspiracy theories?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Their concern - their concerns revolve around this push from many on the right - mostly, it comes from the right - to revisit defamation law in this seminal case, New York Times v. Sullivan, that esta"}
{"id": "1169677158", "date": "2023-04-13", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "Will Fox News pay for spreading lies about voter fraud?", "question_index": 33, "text": "Or call it news.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. They think exactly that, that a judgment against Fox will demonstrate that the law is what the law is, that the First Amendment doesn't protect lies, that you can't defame somebody and call it "}
{"id": "1169677158", "date": "2023-04-13", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "Will Fox News pay for spreading lies about voter fraud?", "question_index": 34, "text": "Well, Jeremy Peters, thank you so much for talking with us. I really look forward to your coverage of the defamation trial. Thank you for being here today.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Or call it news."}
{"id": "1169677158", "date": "2023-04-13", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "Will Fox News pay for spreading lies about voter fraud?", "question_index": 35, "text": "Jeremy Peters is a New York Times reporter. He's covering the Dominion Voting Systems defamation lawsuit against Fox News. After we recorded our interview yesterday morning, some surprising revelations emerged during the second day of the pretrial hearing. As Jeremy Peters and Katie Robertson reported later in the day in The New York Times, the judge overseeing Dominion's lawsuit against Fox News said that he was imposing a sanction on the network and would very likely start an investigation into whether Fox's legal team had deliberately withheld evidence. The evidence included recordings of the Fox News host Maria Bartiromo pre-interviewing Trump's legal advisers, Sidney Powell and Rudy Giuliani, which Dominion said had been turned over only a week ago. In the tape of Giuliani, he admits he had no hard evidence to back up his claim that Dominion voting machine software could be manipulated. The judge also said he might appoint a special master to investigate Fox's handling of documents during the discovery process. It was only made clear yesterday that in addition to being the chair of Fox Corporation, the parent company of Fox News, Rupert Murdoch is also an executive at Fox News. Had Murdoch's role at Fox News been disclosed, Dominion would have had access to more of Murdoch's documents as part of the discovery process. The judge said that if Dominion had to do additional depositions or redo any, then Fox would have to do everything they can to make the person available, and it will be at a cost to Fox.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you for having me back, Terry."}
{"id": "1169677158", "date": "2023-04-13", "guest": "Jeremy Peters", "title": "Will Fox News pay for spreading lies about voter fraud?", "question_index": 36, "text": "If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed - like this week's interview with All Things Considered host Mary Louise Kelly, whose new memoir is about juggling her career and parenting; or with Josh Groban, who's starring in the new Broadway revival of the Sondheim musical \"Sweeney Todd\" - check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you for having me back, Terry."}
{"id": "1169700217", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Mimi Sheraton", "title": "Remembering restaurant critic and food writer Mimi Sheraton", "question_index": 0, "text": "When you're reviewing a restaurant, what's your method of ordering so that you can really judge how the food is prepared?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross. Today we're going to remember restaurant critic and food writer Mimi Sheraton, who died last week at the age of 97. When she was a child, on"}
{"id": "1169700217", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Mimi Sheraton", "title": "Remembering restaurant critic and food writer Mimi Sheraton", "question_index": 1, "text": "You are always very careful about protecting your identity. I mean, that's one of the things that is legendary about you. You're never photographed with your face shown. How have you managed to keep your identity as protected as it's been, though, to tell you the truth, I imagine a lot of New York restaurants really do know who you are?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, usually we're four people. My husband and I usually go first to see if it's going to be worth reviewing, but then it's usually four people. And I ask people to order what I want to see, and as t"}
{"id": "1169700217", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Mimi Sheraton", "title": "Remembering restaurant critic and food writer Mimi Sheraton", "question_index": 2, "text": "Do you hope that it won't work? Would that be a sign...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Indeed, they do. I would say about half of the places I go to in New York know who I am. I can still get into 50% of them without them knowing. But the other truth of that is that the 50% who know me "}
{"id": "1169700217", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Mimi Sheraton", "title": "Remembering restaurant critic and food writer Mimi Sheraton", "question_index": 3, "text": "...Of corruption if tipping got them a better table?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't care."}
{"id": "1169700217", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Mimi Sheraton", "title": "Remembering restaurant critic and food writer Mimi Sheraton", "question_index": 4, "text": "What's the - is the wrong thing to accept the tip and show you the better table?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't care. I mean, if you say do I hope, I mean, I don't really want a restaurant to do the wrong thing."}
{"id": "1169700217", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Mimi Sheraton", "title": "Remembering restaurant critic and food writer Mimi Sheraton", "question_index": 5, "text": "Can I interrupt here and ask you what kind of wigs you used to wear?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Indeed it is. It's called selling tables in the restaurant business. And it's supposed to be a no-no. In a place that has a really good management, they would not go for that. It's a crummy kind of th"}
{"id": "1169700217", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Mimi Sheraton", "title": "Remembering restaurant critic and food writer Mimi Sheraton", "question_index": 6, "text": "In Long Island.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I have a whole wardrobe. There was one that was sort of henna, a long pageboy with bangs, which I called my '30s Greenwich Village lady poet wig. I had a very pale, silvery blonde bouffant that "}
{"id": "1169700217", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Mimi Sheraton", "title": "Remembering restaurant critic and food writer Mimi Sheraton", "question_index": 7, "text": "Now in your newsletter, you recently described one Italian restaurant as having an atmosphere that is gloomy, dated and suggestive of an old-age home. That's a pretty negative thing to say.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And I had a very curly sort of - not quite black hair 'cause that would look very strange with my skin, but quite dark, that I really didn't have a name for. And those are the three I used a grea"}
{"id": "1169700217", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Mimi Sheraton", "title": "Remembering restaurant critic and food writer Mimi Sheraton", "question_index": 8, "text": "I'm going to read something else you said that is also equally scary for a restaurant. You described another restaurant's special white room as a blazing dining room that suggests a high-toned interrogation center. Now, if I were that restaurant, I would not be pleased.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a pretty negative place."}
{"id": "1169700217", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Mimi Sheraton", "title": "Remembering restaurant critic and food writer Mimi Sheraton", "question_index": 9, "text": "Were you ever threatened by a restaurant owner?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm not in the business of pleasing restaurants."}
{"id": "1169700217", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Mimi Sheraton", "title": "Remembering restaurant critic and food writer Mimi Sheraton", "question_index": 10, "text": "Anybody ever sued you or threatened to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Never really flatly. There was one restaurant that got a very bad review, and it was a very famous restaurant for a long time, used to be very good. And they got a very bad review in my early days of "}
{"id": "1169700217", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Mimi Sheraton", "title": "Remembering restaurant critic and food writer Mimi Sheraton", "question_index": 11, "text": "I guess that would be a very bad precedent for food writers if you could get sued for saying bad things about a restaurant.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A couple of times, yes. There was - once papers were actually served, but nothing ever came of it. And a couple of times restaurants have threatened to but never did it."}
{"id": "1169700217", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Mimi Sheraton", "title": "Remembering restaurant critic and food writer Mimi Sheraton", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, you are very controversial because your opinions are so clearly stated. If you are recognized in a restaurant in spite of the wig you might be wearing...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you can get sued. And in fact, Gault and Millau, the French critics, were not only sued, but they lost a judgment that was later reversed. Mr. Chow sued them for $20,000 in damages and won, but "}
{"id": "1169700217", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Mimi Sheraton", "title": "Remembering restaurant critic and food writer Mimi Sheraton", "question_index": 13, "text": "...In spite of your efforts to remain anonymous, are you ever asked to leave?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1169700217", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Mimi Sheraton", "title": "Remembering restaurant critic and food writer Mimi Sheraton", "question_index": 14, "text": "One more thing about anonymity. Now, your secret's safe with me about what you look like because, after all, I'm speaking to you from Philadelphia. You're in New York. We're speaking via satellite. And I can't really see what you look like. However, the engineer who's recording your interview in New York right now might have a Polaroid camera. I mean, does this ever happen, that someone takes a shot of you and tries to mail it to a major American publication to blow your cover?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And they wouldn't serve us. So we left. And then another restaurant refused me a table when I got there with a reservation that someone else had made. However, there are - as I say now, I've been he"}
{"id": "1169700217", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Mimi Sheraton", "title": "Remembering restaurant critic and food writer Mimi Sheraton", "question_index": 15, "text": "I think, perhaps, one of the worst hazards of the trade a food writer faces is overeating. You're forced to have rich meals and many of them. And I know that you had taken a five-month leave from The New York Times when you were still working with them to lose weight. Is this really difficult to deal with when you're writing about food?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1987 interview with longtime restaurant critic and author Mimi Sheraton. She died last week at the age of 97."}
{"id": "1169700217", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Mimi Sheraton", "title": "Remembering restaurant critic and food writer Mimi Sheraton", "question_index": 16, "text": "When you started writing for Time magazine, you said that you were especially interested in institutional food, where the eaters are a somewhat captive audience. Why are you interested in that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's very difficult to deal with. But in truth, I would have to say that I probably have pursued this career as an excuse to overeat. I think that the people who are really good at it are all in that "}
{"id": "1169700217", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Mimi Sheraton", "title": "Remembering restaurant critic and food writer Mimi Sheraton", "question_index": 17, "text": "Now, you've said that the only real dismal failure of your career was when you were a consultant for one year to a university hospital trying to improve patient food there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because it's becoming an increasingly important part of eating in the United States, and because I think that that food is much worse than it has to be. It's school eating. It's employee cafeteria eat"}
{"id": "1169700217", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Mimi Sheraton", "title": "Remembering restaurant critic and food writer Mimi Sheraton", "question_index": 18, "text": "What happened? This is interesting. Because of your interest in institutional food, apparently you tried to", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1169700217", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Mimi Sheraton", "title": "Remembering restaurant critic and food writer Mimi Sheraton", "question_index": 19, "text": "make it better in one instance and couldn't do it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1169700217", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Mimi Sheraton", "title": "Remembering restaurant critic and food writer Mimi Sheraton", "question_index": 20, "text": "You would have lost your job anyways.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was - and I felt, then we'd have no trouble with anybody else. But of course, they would have gone on strike if we had done that."}
{"id": "1169700217", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Mimi Sheraton", "title": "Remembering restaurant critic and food writer Mimi Sheraton", "question_index": 21, "text": "Now, you - as part of your survey of institutional food, you did one piece in which you flew all the different airlines and compared the meals that you were served on the planes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1169700217", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Mimi Sheraton", "title": "Remembering restaurant critic and food writer Mimi Sheraton", "question_index": 22, "text": "It struck me as a very extravagant trip to make, to buy all these airline tickets just to taste the food, though maybe you had other reasons for traveling.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was one particular leg of a United Airlines flight that had superb food because I think it prepared the kind of food that could be done well within those circumstances."}
{"id": "1169700217", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Mimi Sheraton", "title": "Remembering restaurant critic and food writer Mimi Sheraton", "question_index": 23, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't buy the ticket. Conde Nast bought the ticket..."}
{"id": "1169700217", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Mimi Sheraton", "title": "Remembering restaurant critic and food writer Mimi Sheraton", "question_index": 24, "text": "What is your native food? What was the food that you were brought up on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...As a story that would get a lot of attention, and it certainly did. And that's - it was very important to do. And en route, I did four other stories for them. So it wasn't quite as extravagant as i"}
{"id": "1169700217", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Mimi Sheraton", "title": "Remembering restaurant critic and food writer Mimi Sheraton", "question_index": 25, "text": "You had a very nice piece in the book about your mother's cooking, a piece on comfort cures and the kinds of food that your mother used to make for you when you were sick and home from school back...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was brought up in Brooklyn in a Jewish family that was not kosher. And my mother made what is considered Jewish food, but she made a lot of what is American food and what certainly was at the "}
{"id": "1169700217", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Mimi Sheraton", "title": "Remembering restaurant critic and food writer Mimi Sheraton", "question_index": 26, "text": "...When you were a child.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1169700217", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Mimi Sheraton", "title": "Remembering restaurant critic and food writer Mimi Sheraton", "question_index": 27, "text": "Do you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I still make them for myself."}
{"id": "1169700217", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Mimi Sheraton", "title": "Remembering restaurant critic and food writer Mimi Sheraton", "question_index": 28, "text": "What are they? What are the foods?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I..."}
{"id": "1169700217", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Mimi Sheraton", "title": "Remembering restaurant critic and food writer Mimi Sheraton", "question_index": 29, "text": "How much do you eat out now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there were things like - as one was getting better, there would be eggnogs. There would be cinnamon toast. There would be baked custard with nutmeg on top, inevitably, chicken soup. But I also l"}
{"id": "1169700217", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Mimi Sheraton", "title": "Remembering restaurant critic and food writer Mimi Sheraton", "question_index": 30, "text": "Do you find that you behave differently or even chew differently when you're eating out than you do when you're at home?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would say almost every night. We eat home on the average now about 1 1/2 times a week. And I eat a couple of lunches a week out."}
{"id": "1169700217", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Mimi Sheraton", "title": "Remembering restaurant critic and food writer Mimi Sheraton", "question_index": 31, "text": "Right. I don't know if you're the kind of person who has to finish everything that's on the plate. Like, whatever the portion is, small or large, that's what you're going to eat.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I spend more time at the meal when I'm eating out. You know, when I left the Times, one of the things that I missed was cooking at home. And my husband said - no, I said, now we're going to be"}
{"id": "1169700217", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Mimi Sheraton", "title": "Remembering restaurant critic and food writer Mimi Sheraton", "question_index": 32, "text": "Do you have any guilty pleasures in food, foods that aren't especially well prepared or even especially good for you that you really crave and love?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I try very hard not to. I almost always do finish. However, the one course that I find I can taste and leave is dessert. I'm not a dessert person. So I can take a couple of bites of a dessert an"}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 0, "text": "Now, who did you model the character on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Jack Lipnick) That's OK. That's OK. That's OK. That's just fine. You probably walked in here thinking that was going to be a handicap, thinking that we wanted people who knew something about the m"}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 1, "text": "There's a certain kind of charm that you use in \"Barton Fink\" that's this real over-the-top, phony charm that - and you know that the person can turn on a dime and really kind of eat you up afterwards. Have you been treated that way, with this phony charm?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I decided that Louis. B. Mayer was a good image for Jack Lipnick because Louis B. Mayer was rather schizy in terms of on one side - on one hand, he was very paternalistic, very sweet, very charming an"}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 2, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't know. I'm going to question you about that phony charm. How phony is it? I don't know. I think - you know the Yiddish expression haimish?"}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 3, "text": "But explain it anyways.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 4, "text": "Explain it anyways.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like, we're all family."}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 5, "text": "The parts that you're getting best known for now are parts like the studio head in \"Barton Fink\" and, you know, Arnold Rothstein, the gambler in \"Eight Men Out\" and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we're all family, you know? And it's like, you know, so I think I embrace Barton with an overwhelming paternalistic, we are now family. You are now with me, and we're working together. And I thi"}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 6, "text": "...You know, a mafioso in \"Harlem Nights\" and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 7, "text": "...You know, the team owner now in the HBO movie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 8, "text": "I saw you in a horror movie in which you played the absolute opposite kind of character. The movie was called \"Anguish.\" It came out about...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 9, "text": "It came out about five years ago - very unusual movie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One of the best films I've ever done."}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 10, "text": "A horror film in which you play the really backwards son of a kind of demented mother who hypnotizes you into...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 11, "text": "...Committing murders.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 12, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The mother played by Zelda Rubinstein..."}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 13, "text": "Yes. Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Who is the - who was the lady - the medium in \"Poltergeist,\" right?"}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 14, "text": "That's a good word for it, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, Zelda. We - that was an interesting part. And again, you know, this explains the career of an actor and the turmoil that we live with daily in our careers. I had been advised by my managers at t"}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 15, "text": "That'll do.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But it was a great part. It's a great part. And also, it's a terrific, Grand Guignol kind of movie. And over the years, I've had people like Sean Penn and Bob Dylan and - how much more name dropping c"}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 16, "text": "Let me ask you some things about your background. You grew up in Brooklyn, N.Y.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1992 interview with character actor Michael Lerner, who died Saturday at age 81."}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 17, "text": "What kind of neighborhood?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 18, "text": "And what did your parents do for a living?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Housing projects. Red Hook."}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 19, "text": "Were you ever expected to go into the business?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My father was what you would - he liked to think he was an antique dealer. But in all actuality, he was more like a junk dealer. My grandfather had a store on the Lower East Side of Manhattan where he"}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 20, "text": "No. Were you ever expected to go into your father's business?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, never. Never. That happened mysteriously. You mean become an actor? No."}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 21, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, into my father's business?"}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 22, "text": "What were you fired for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I don't think so. The real business in the family was my older brother, who is 11 years older than I am. And he owned a delicatessen, a kosher deli in Brighton Beach in Brooklyn called Zei-Mar. It"}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 23, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I got screwed up in making triple-decker sandwiches. I used to get the Zero Mostel sandwich and the Red Buttons sandwich screwed up."}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 24, "text": "Oh, that's great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Sixth Avenue - this is a true story. The Sixth Avenue Deli in Manhattan. Yep."}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 25, "text": "So what was the difference between the Zero Mostel and the Red Buttons?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 26, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think one had corned beef and one had pastrami. And I used to..."}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I used to screw it up, you know? And there was - I do remember vividly there was a Peter Lind Hayes-Mary Healy double decker."}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 28, "text": "Oh, they should name a sandwich after you now in one of those delis.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I didn't know who they were. But, you know, I found out who they were."}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 29, "text": "So you said you originally...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wouldn't that be nice? Well, you know, I love the Carnegie Deli in New York. And the guys there - you know, as I'm getting to be more, you know, better known over the years, I mean, they're treating m"}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 30, "text": "...Wanted to be a sportswriter.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 31, "text": "So what got you interested in acting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. In New York, growing up, I was a sports quiz kid. I was a little fat kid who just knew everything about baseball. 1951, Stan Musial hit five home runs and a doubleheader. And there used to be a p"}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 32, "text": "Have you always been able to make a living acting since you started?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Escape. Escape from, I think, the narrow confines of the way I had been brought up, in terms of living in the housing projects in Brooklyn, which was very rough. And for some reason, you know, I don't"}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 33, "text": "Has it always been taking roles you wanted to take? Or are there a lot of roles that you took just to pay the rent?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Amazingly, yes. Yeah."}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 34, "text": "Was that a regular part?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no. There are quite a number of parts in the early days in Los Angeles that I took to pay the rent. I mean, I did everything from \"Starsky And Hutch\" to the - oh, I did a film recently that didn't"}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 35, "text": "Sure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no, no. It was a one-time appearance. Can I tell you something that I find very amusing?"}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 36, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. Maybe your listeners will. When I first came to Hollywood, you know, I come with a lot of baggage. I'm 25 years old, and, you know, I have a lot of schooling behind me and all that. And "}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 37, "text": "It's a cop show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And..."}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 38, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Two people - right, right. And I'm going to be reading for the part of Starsky, and I am slightly overweight, OK? And it's between me and Paul Michael Glaser, an actor named Paul Michael Glaser. And I"}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 39, "text": "So he told you not to try to impress people with the fact that you were smart or had studied.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wound up playing Fat Rolly in that show, by the way."}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 40, "text": "Was that a lesson? Did you never do that again?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. I don't do that too much."}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 41, "text": "You said in a New York Times interview that your dream was to play a sympathetic, romantic leading man.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's true. Yes. For about 20 years, I kept quiet about it."}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 42, "text": "That's still your dream.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, lumpenproletariat. Yes."}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 43, "text": "Oh, come on. It's nearly absent right now in American films.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Absolutely. I'd just like to play not a larger-than-life character. I'd like to play somebody who's simple, who's got problems with his family. And, you know, in the whole world of Europea"}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 44, "text": "Yeah. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, the closest you get to it, I guess, is somebody like Gene Hackman."}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 45, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, the unusual leading man."}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 46, "text": "Yeah, sure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But, I mean, I'd like to play characters that are - you know, have the problem. And the movie's about them."}
{"id": "1169702045", "date": "2023-04-14", "guest": "Michael Lerner", "title": "Remembering 'Barton Fink' actor Michael Lerner", "question_index": 47, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know? The problem with the kind of parts that I often get offered are that they're very vivid, small parts, cameos, you know, or smaller roles. And, you know, in \"Barton Fink,\" I'm on screen maybe"}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The iconic song \"New York, New York\" was written by John Kander and Fred Ebb for Martin Scorsese's 1977 movie musical \"New York, New York,\" which starred Robert De Niro and Liza Minnelli. A new Broadway musical called \"New York, New York,\" inspired by the film, opens next week on Broadway. It includes Kander and Ebb songs from the movie, as well as several of their little-known songs and a few new ones composed by Kander with lyrics by Lin-Manuel Miranda. Today, we're going to feature our interviews with Kander and his songwriting partner, Fred Ebb, who died in 2004. Kander and Ebb's best-known Broadway shows are \"Cabaret\" and \"Chicago.\" Songs from those shows are now being lovingly parodied in the series \"Schmicago,\" which also parodies other Broadway shows from the '60s and '70s. It's the new follow-up season to the Apple TV+ series \"Schmigadoon!\", which took on classic musicals of the '40s and '50s, including \"Brigadoon.\" John Kander is 96 now and still composing. Let's start with Frank Sinatra's recording of \"New York, New York.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 1, "text": "I talked about that song with John Kander when we spoke in 2015 after the release of a double CD called \"John Kander: Hidden Treasures.\" It includes this demo version of the first draft of \"New York, New York,\" with composer Kander at the piano and lyricist Fred Ebb singing. It was recorded in 1976.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Start spreading the news. I'm leaving today. I want to be part of it - New York, New York. These vagabond shoes are longing to stray right through the very heart of it - New York, New York. "}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 2, "text": "John Kander, welcome to FRESH AIR. It's such a treat to have you back on the show. I love this new collection. I'm so glad that it was produced. It's so much fun to hear that first draft of \"New York, New York\" and compare it to the anthem that you finally wrote. Tell the story of why this version was rejected.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) New York, New York, New York, New York. New York, New York, New York, New York. Do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do, do (ph). They always say it's a nice p"}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 3, "text": "Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, to start with, I'm surprised that I ever let anybody hear that version."}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's - well, I guess because it's terrible."}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 5, "text": "That's an excerpt of my 2015 interview with John Kander. The first time I interviewed him was 40 years ago in 1983, along with his songwriting partner Fred Ebb, who died in 2004. I asked them about \"New York, New York.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's part of the reason. The story of how the other one got written is Fred and I were writing songs for a film called \"New York, New York.\" Martin Scorsese was directing it and starred Liza Minnell"}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 6, "text": "One of the really curious things about the film \"New York, New York,\" for which you wrote the score and the title song, is that when the movie came out - well, I heard Liza Minnelli singing it on the radio a couple of times. But it wasn't until a couple of years later when Frank Sinatra recorded his version of it that it really became, like, a national anthem.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's part of the reason. The story of how the other one got written is Fred and I were writing songs for a film called \"New York, New York.\" Martin Scorsese was directing it and starred Liza Minnell"}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 7, "text": "I think we've all heard at least 200 different versions of \"New York, New York.\" I've heard it in elevators. I've heard street musicians performing it in Manhattan. Lots of, you know, performers include it as part of their performance.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I also don't know why Frank Sinatra decided to sing it."}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 8, "text": "What's the worst version of it you've ever heard?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's terrific. I mean, it makes me very happy."}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 9, "text": "How do you feel when you're sitting in an elevator or in a restaurant and it comes on, the music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't mean to offend you, Miss Alabama, or whoever you were. But that was really rank."}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I'm going to die."}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 11, "text": "Has...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I really think - literally, if you're in an airplane or in an elevator or something like that and your own music comes on, and particularly if you're alone, you think, that's it - curtains."}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 12, "text": "Have you ever elbowed someone next to you and say, oh, by the way, I wrote that song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sometimes you don't even connect it. You know, you listen to quite a lot of the song before you say so - oh, I wrote that. You know, you don't connect yourself."}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 13, "text": "Oh, and he said...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, there was a cab driver once. I couldn't control myself. Then I felt embarrassed. But I heard it on the radio in a cab. And in fact, they'd played a few of our songs, one after the other. It soun"}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 14, "text": "That's the late lyricist Fred Ebb and composer John Kander, recorded in 1983. We'll hear more of that interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he's your typical New York cab ride. Like, sure you did, you know? But I was real excited then. It was the only time I've ever done that."}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to our tribute to the songs of John Kander and the late Fred Ebb. The new Broadway musical \"New York, New York\" is inspired by Martin Scorsese's 1977 movie of the same name, which featured songs by Kander and Ebb, including the famous title song. The show opens next week with even more Kander and Ebb songs. Kander and Ebb songs from their musicals \"Cabaret\" and \"Chicago\" are among the Broadway songs lovingly parodied in \"Schmicago,\" the new second season of the Apple TV series \"Schmigadoon!\" Let's get back to the interview I recorded with Kander and Ebb in 1983.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he's your typical New York cab ride. Like, sure you did, you know? But I was real excited then. It was the only time I've ever done that."}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, let's listen to \"Mein Herr\" from the soundtrack of the film \"Cabaret.\" Maybe you could tell us how this song came into shape.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he's your typical New York cab ride. Like, sure you did, you know? But I was real excited then. It was the only time I've ever done that."}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 17, "text": "From the movie, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was not from the musical. This is only from the movie."}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 18, "text": "And when you know you're writing for Liza Minnelli, is there a certain range you have in mind?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He wanted something for Liza to sing by herself. Although there's a chorus in \"Mein Herr\" too. I think he wanted it more thumping and arresting and dynamic. \"Don't Tell Mama\" is a rather soft little '"}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 19, "text": "Did you resent it when he turned the others down?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We also had written conservatively eight songs before that one, before Bobby approved of - Fosse approved of \"Mein Herr.\" He knew exactly what he was looking for, and we weren't coming up with it. And"}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 20, "text": "Well, let's hear. This is Joel Grey and Liza Minnelli.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he said, that'll do nicely. And I - there was a great sigh of relief that we wouldn't have to go home and try still another one."}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 21, "text": "From \"Cabaret,\" that was \"Mein Herr\" sung by Liza Minnelli. And my guests are John Kander and Fred Ebb, who wrote the score for \"Cabaret\" and for many other musicals on Broadway. Musicals - the scores that you write for a musical get a new life when the musical closes, and then you see which songs can continue to live and what kind of context they're sung in, the kind of life they've taken on on their own - the songs that are still sung.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Sally Bowles, singing) You have to understand the way I am, mein herr. A tiger is a tiger, not a lamb, mein herr. You'll never turn the vinegar to jam, mein herr. So I do what I do. When I'm throu"}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 22, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But only because you really, truly never know. \"Cabaret,\" for example, was not written with an eye to how many people could possibly sing it outside the show."}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 23, "text": "Does it ever bother you when someone says, which one of you writes the lyrics? Which are you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And when that does happen, it's very gratifying and very nice, but always slightly surprising. And the songs you're surest of are the ones you might be taking out after the first preview."}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 24, "text": "Because that happens in teams.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 25, "text": "I thank you very much for talking with us. I really enjoyed it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The one question that's beginning to bother me is, which comes first, the music or the lyrics? - since everybody asks that. You very nicely did not. So I thank you."}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 26, "text": "I love your music and good luck with songwriting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a pleasure."}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 27, "text": "Thanks a lot for being here.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for inviting us."}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 28, "text": "My interview with composer John Kander and the late lyricist Fred Ebb was recorded in 1983. Let's return to the 2015 interview I recorded with Kander after the release of a collection of songs by Kander and Ebb, including songs that never made it into musicals. That collection, called \"John Kander: Hidden Treasures,\" features this demo recording of one of Kander and Ebb's most famous songs, with Kander at the piano and Ebb singing, recorded in 1965.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 29, "text": "So that was a 1965 demo recording with the composers John Kander at the piano, lyricist Fred Ebb singing. I saw the revival of the revival...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) What good is sitting alone in a room? Come hear the music play. Life is a cabaret, old chum. Come to the cabaret. Put down your knitting, your book and your broom. Time for a holiday. Life i"}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 30, "text": "...With Alan Cumming.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right."}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 31, "text": "He was wonderful. So was Linda Emond in the title...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 32, "text": "So was Linda Emond in the role that was originated by Lotte Lenya in \"Cabaret\" as Fraulein Schneider. And Lotte Lenya was such a great singer. And she was also, of course, the widow of Kurt Weill. And some of the songs sound to me very influenced by Kurt Weill, who, I would imagine, you listened to a lot while writing the songs, since he's the composer we most associate with that period. He's the songwriter we most associated with that period. He's a German songwriter who fled the Nazis.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, you bet she was. Oh."}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 33, "text": "That's composer John Kander, recorded in 2015. Songs from the Kander and Ebb musicals \"Cabaret\" and \"Chicago\" are among the musicals parodied in the Apple TV+ series \"Schmicago,\" which is the title of the second season of \"Schmigadoon!\" We'll hear more from Kander after a break. Here's a song from \"Schmicago,\" inspired by the Kander and Ebb song \"Mein Herr\" from \"Cabaret.\" I'm Terry Gross and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The interesting thing is that I listened to everybody but Kurt Weill because I knew that was a dangerous area to be walking into. I listened to lots and lots and lots of German jazz and German vaudevi"}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 34, "text": "UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character, non-English languages spoken) Ladies and germs, I give you the beautiful, the charming, the international sensation, Jenny Banks. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character) Hey.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The interesting thing is that I listened to everybody but Kurt Weill because I knew that was a dangerous area to be walking into. I listened to lots and lots and lots of German jazz and German vaudevi"}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 35, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today, we're paying tribute to songwriters John Kander and the late Fred Ebb. The new Broadway musical \"New York, New York,\" inspired by Martin Scorsese's 1977 film of the same name, opens next week. The show includes Kander and Ebb songs from the movie, other lesser known Kander and Ebb songs and new songs written by Kander with lyrics by Lin-Manuel Miranda. Kander and Ebb songs from their musicals \"Cabaret\" and \"Chicago\" are among the Broadway songs parodied in \"Schmicago,\" which is the title of the new second season of the Apple TV series \"Schmigadoon!\" Kander celebrated his 96th birthday last month. When I spoke with Kander in 1991, he told me how he met his songwriting partner, Fred Ebb.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Jenny Banks, singing) Back when I was summering in Brussels. I fell in love with Martin and his muscles. My heart got pumping every time he flexed. It's fair to say that I was overcome by what cam"}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 36, "text": "You know, you met your partner almost on a blind date, so to speak.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Jenny Banks, singing) Back when I was summering in Brussels. I fell in love with Martin and his muscles. My heart got pumping every time he flexed. It's fair to say that I was overcome by what cam"}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 37, "text": "Yeah, because you were basically set up by the music publisher Tommy Valando, who had been publishing both of you independently. And - what? - he suggested that you get together? Do I have the story right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sounds like it, yeah."}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 38, "text": "What is your process of working together? Do you work together in the same room at the same time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He literally said, I think you two guys should meet each other. I think you'd like each other. And so since we always followed his advice - separately at the time - we did meet each other. We did like"}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 39, "text": "Let me pick up on what you just said - even if the work is bad. Now, when do you decide that you don't like a song, if you're going to tear it up? Do you know that right away? Is it, like, three days later that you realize, God, that was a bad song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. We - Fred lives about four blocks from my house. And he likes to stay home to work. I like to go out to work. And at 10 o'clock or so in the morning, I'll go over to his house. And we will sit "}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 40, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sometimes you know it right away. Usually, it takes about 24 hours. And then I'll come back the next day. We'll look at it. And we'll both stick our fingers down our throats and tear it up and go to w"}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 41, "text": "That's an excerpt of my 1991 interview with John Kander. Let's return to our interview from 2015, 11 years after his songwriting partner, Fred Ebb, died. They had worked together for 42 years.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But it's - that's never a terrible moment. I think it's very important - at least, it always has been important for us - to stay very loose, which allows you to write badly as well as to write well. B"}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 42, "text": "Fred Ebb died in 2004 of a heart attack. How did you carry on musically after having collaborated with him for so many years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But it's - that's never a terrible moment. I think it's very important - at least, it always has been important for us - to stay very loose, which allows you to write badly as well as to write well. B"}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 43, "text": "And the three shows that you mentioned - \"The Visit,\" \"Scottsboro Boys\" and \"Curtains\" - all made it to Broadway.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a hard thing to answer. We had been together for so long that it seemed - sometimes things like somebody's death seems unlikely because for years and years and years, that person has been alive a"}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 44, "text": "So I want to hear - I want to play another demo that you wrote. And this is the first song that broke through that you wrote with lyricist Fred Ebb called \"My Coloring Book.\" What was the occasion for writing this song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, they did. And I like them."}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 45, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This was very early in our collaboration. And Fred had an idea for writing a comic song about a coloring book. And my memory of it was that I think when he suggested it, for some reason I had some sor"}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 46, "text": "I like it a lot, too. And I remember when it was a hit by Sandy Stewart in - was it the '50s or the '60s?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "it's really true. We just wrote songs. And we liked to write songs. So the idea of taking that idea and going in another direction was not a moment of friction between us. It was, OK, let's try that. "}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 47, "text": "So it was - this was in the 1960s it was a hit.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, Freddy I met in 1962."}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 48, "text": "This is a version that you recorded in 1973. I think this was in performance at the 92nd Street Y?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 49, "text": "OK. So this is John...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 50, "text": "I think that's right. So this is John Kander at the piano playing and singing a song he wrote with Fred Ebb called \"My Coloring Book\" that had been a hit for Sandy Stewart and has been recorded by many other people.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think so anyway."}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 51, "text": "That's my guest, composer John Kander, performing a song that he wrote with Fred Ebb, \"My Coloring Book.\" How did that song change your life? Because it was a big hit.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) If you admire coloring books - and lots of people do - I have a new one for you. A most unusual coloring book, the kind you never see. Crayons ready? Very well. Begin to color me. These are "}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 52, "text": "Wait. What's the bad part?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think, internally, it sort of validated us. I don't know if that's true or not. And looking back on it, I think so. Suddenly, there was a song out there that lots and lots of people were singing. An"}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 53, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it scares - it's a little scary. If you're writing, as I do, really kind of for the pleasure of writing, it suddenly puts you in a kind of commercial place that you hadn't really thought of or"}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 54, "text": ". We're listening to my 2015 interview with composer John Kander. We'll hear more of that interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And the doors closed on the 535th floor of this building, and a gooey string version of \"My Coloring Book\" started. And nobody else was on the elevator, and we were going down fast, and I thought, I a"}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 55, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with composer John Kander, recorded in 2015 after the release of a collection of songs called \"John Kander: Hidden Treasures.\" It includes some of Kander and Ebb's most famous songs and songs that never made it to the stage.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And the doors closed on the 535th floor of this building, and a gooey string version of \"My Coloring Book\" started. And nobody else was on the elevator, and we were going down fast, and I thought, I a"}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 56, "text": "One of my favorite recordings on this collection is sung by Linda Emond, who is the performer who I heard in the role that Lotte Lenya originated in \"Cabaret.\" I saw Linda Emond in the revival of it. And on this new collection of your songs, she sings a song that you and Fred Ebb wrote for the musical adaptation of the Thornton Wilder play \"The Skin of Our Teeth.\" And the 1999 production never made it to Broadway. You were revamping the production when Fred Ebb died in 2004. The song is called \"He Always Comes Home to Me.\" And I think this is, like, a married woman singing to her maid, and the married woman knows that her maid has probably had an affair with her husband. Do I have that right? I've never seen the show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And the doors closed on the 535th floor of this building, and a gooey string version of \"My Coloring Book\" started. And nobody else was on the elevator, and we were going down fast, and I thought, I a"}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 57, "text": "So what happened to this song? It's a beautiful song. Actually, let me play the song, and then we'll find out what happened to it. It troubles me when a song this good", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 58, "text": "hasn't had the life it deserves. So here's Linda Emond singing a song by John Kander and Fred Ebb.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 59, "text": "That's Linda Emond singing a song by John Kander and Fred Ebb that's included in the new collection \"John Kander: Hidden Treasures, 1950 To 2015.\" So you mentioned that the show that that song was written for, \"The Skin Of Our Teeth,\" that you lost the rights to it, that the Thornton Wilder estate withdrew the rights. How frustrating is it for you when a song as beautiful as that doesn't make it to Broadway and doesn't have a life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) There were others, quite a few. Some were strangers. Some I knew. But he always comes home to me. Late for dinner quite a lot. Do I argue? I do not. For I wake in the morning and see he's ly"}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 60, "text": "John Kander, it's been wonderful to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know exactly how to answer that. I really don't want to sound phony on this. Most of the fun of writing is the fun of writing and rehearsing and hearing people sing it and working with that. W"}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 61, "text": "That was John Kander from our 2015 interview. The new Broadway musical \"New York, New York,\" inspired by the 1977 film of the same name, opens on Broadway next week. The show includes songs by Kander and Ebb from the movie and other Kander and Ebb songs. We'll end our tribute to Kander and Ebb with a song featuring one of the stars of the new show, Anna Uzele, singing one of the songs that was performed in the film by Liza Minnelli.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1170851174", "date": "2023-04-19", "guest": "Frank Sinatra", "title": "'Fresh Air' pays tribute to the music of John Kander and Fred Ebb", "question_index": 62, "text": "After we take a short break, David Bianculli will review \"Dead Ringers,\" the new Amazon Prime video series based on the 1988 David Cronenberg film of the same name. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Francine Evans) Sometimes you're happy. Sometimes you're sad. But the world goes round. Sometimes you lose every nickel you had. But the world goes round. Sometimes your dreams get broken in piece"}
{"id": "1171027638", "date": "2023-04-20", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "How the AR-15 became the bestselling rifle in the U.S.", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The other day, I was reading an article in The Washington Post about the blast effect of bullets from the assault weapon the AR-15 and how those bullets blow the body apart. When I finished reading the article, a message popped up saying, you've been on this page for 8 minutes and 14 seconds. It took 11 minutes for the shooter to kill 60 people and injure 869 at a Las Vegas concert in 2017. That was a chilling end to disturbing descriptions of what the bullets did to the bodies of some of its victims. The article is part of an investigation conducted by Washington Post reporters into the history of the assault rifle the AR-15. The investigation tells the story of how the civilian rifle was adapted from the military combat automatic rifle the M16 and how, with the help of clever marketing and lobbying, the AR-15 has become a huge moneymaker for the gun industry, an icon of gun culture, a favored weapon for perpetrators of mass shootings and a flashpoint in the debate about guns in America. My guest, Todd Frankel, is one of the series reporters. He's an enterprise reporter on the financial desk of The Washington Post. Todd Frankel, welcome to FRESH AIR. And congratulations on this series.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1171027638", "date": "2023-04-20", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "How the AR-15 became the bestselling rifle in the U.S.", "question_index": 1, "text": "So let's start with if you could list some of the mass shootings that the AR-15 was used as the weapon.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1171027638", "date": "2023-04-20", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "How the AR-15 became the bestselling rifle in the U.S.", "question_index": 2, "text": "Why do mass shooters often choose an AR-15?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, any mass shooting that has made the news that we've all sort of - horrified by. You know, the Uvalde shooting down in Texas last year, that involved an AR-15-style weapon. Newtown, most "}
{"id": "1171027638", "date": "2023-04-20", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "How the AR-15 became the bestselling rifle in the U.S.", "question_index": 3, "text": "It's easier to keep steady - you know, to keep steady aim with minimum recoil. Why is that an important feature of the gun?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, you know, it's something that some of the mass shooters even explicitly spell out, like, in their manifestos they leave behind, like the shooter in the Buffalo mass shooting just last year. I me"}
{"id": "1171027638", "date": "2023-04-20", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "How the AR-15 became the bestselling rifle in the U.S.", "question_index": 4, "text": "It's got a lot of speed. I learned this from The Washington Post. The speed of the bullet, the bullet would cross six football fields in one second. That's - I can't even fathom that a bullet can go that quickly. So how does the speed of the bullet affect the lethality of the bullet once it enters the body?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that was one of the innovations and one of the things that made it so appealing to the military at first was it has this gas impingement system, which technically, basically, means that it redir"}
{"id": "1171027638", "date": "2023-04-20", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "How the AR-15 became the bestselling rifle in the U.S.", "question_index": 5, "text": "So I want to just describe a little bit more what the impact is in the body. And I just want to offer a little warning for anybody who feels like they can't hear this. It's just one sentence I'm going to say here. But when the bullet enters the body, it can shatter bones, shatter organs and, typically, leaves a gaping hole in the exit wound, which is part of the reason why it's so hard to survive. And then the bodies that were autopsied for The Washington Post story, I mean, there were, like, multiple, multiple wounds, multiple gunshots, multiple bullets that entered their bodies. And, like, there's no way they could have survived this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, the AR-15 actually shoots a fairly small bullet. It's known as .223 or a 5.56, you know, these technical details. But it's a fairly small bullet, but it has a lot of powder behind it, gun powder"}
{"id": "1171027638", "date": "2023-04-20", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "How the AR-15 became the bestselling rifle in the U.S.", "question_index": 6, "text": "So the AR-15 is the semiautomatic version of the combat rifle the M16, which was an automatic weapon. The M16 was standard-issue rifle in Vietnam. A Pentagon report described the M16 as an outstanding weapon with phenomenal lethality. So what's the difference between the M16, which was first used in combat in Vietnam, and the AR-15, which is being marketed to civilians?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. No, and that's - you know, when you see this at some of these mass shootings, these doctors at hospitals are waiting for the folks to come in, and they come in, but they're already dead, right?"}
{"id": "1171027638", "date": "2023-04-20", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "How the AR-15 became the bestselling rifle in the U.S.", "question_index": 7, "text": "So how did a weapon that was designed for combat become slightly redesigned for civilians?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They're very similar. The biggest difference is that the M16, the military's rifle, is capable of automatic fire, which means if you pull and hold down the trigger, it'll keep firing bullets, whereas "}
{"id": "1171027638", "date": "2023-04-20", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "How the AR-15 became the bestselling rifle in the U.S.", "question_index": 8, "text": "So why - like, was it somebodys idea? Can you pinpoint the person who decided, let's take this combat weapon and find a way to mass market it to civilians?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's not terribly uncommon for guns to move from market to market. What was unusual in this case is that this weapon, for a while, was not very popular and sort of flew under the radar. And, you know,"}
{"id": "1171027638", "date": "2023-04-20", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "How the AR-15 became the bestselling rifle in the U.S.", "question_index": 9, "text": "Was that controversial within the gun industry?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a gradual thing. No, I don't think there's one person, but it was sort of interesting, right? And I think this was eye-opening to us as we reported this for The Washington Post, is that, you kn"}
{"id": "1171027638", "date": "2023-04-20", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "How the AR-15 became the bestselling rifle in the U.S.", "question_index": 10, "text": "So, you know, the series mentions a man named Harry Falber who ended up being the head of licensing at Smith & Wesson. And he came from the ad world. He'd been an ad man in big companies. And when he came to Smith & Wesson, he wanted to test out what kind of advertising seemed to work best for Smith & Wesson. So he took out two ads in Guns & Ammo, one a kind of more traditional gun ad and one a gun ad for the AR-15, and basically tried to figure out which consumers responded better to. Can you describe those ads?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was. Again, there was this hostility towards the weapon itself, this sort of military gun. You know, what do ordinary gun owners need with this? But the gun industry itself was suffering several ye"}
{"id": "1171027638", "date": "2023-04-20", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "How the AR-15 became the bestselling rifle in the U.S.", "question_index": 11, "text": "So two things. In that version of the ad, the chosen one is kind of, like, making the gun into, like, this heroic figure, and also, by advertising, like, you could be like this SWAT team officer who's seen the action, you could have the same kind of thing just as a civilian, not having to join the police, even.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, Harry was a traditional - he describes himself as, like, from the \"Mad Men\" era of advertising. He'd worked for many - Hallmark, Volvo. He'd worked on these very mainstream brand campaig"}
{"id": "1171027638", "date": "2023-04-20", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "How the AR-15 became the bestselling rifle in the U.S.", "question_index": 12, "text": "And one of the reasons I think why he spoke out is in 2012, after he decided to leave Smith & Wesson because he didn't like the idea of these assault weapons, just a couple of months later was the Sandy Hook massacre in the elementary school. And he lived just, like, 20 miles away from Sandy Hook.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And that was that sort of darker edge of marketing that at the time was still sort of unwelcomed or sort of challenged in the industry, but now that's pretty much just how guns are advertised. I"}
{"id": "1171027638", "date": "2023-04-20", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "How the AR-15 became the bestselling rifle in the U.S.", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well, other companies picked up on this tactical weapon approach to advertising the AR-15. Bushmaster had this tagline, consider your man card reissued. So advertising it totally, like, on the idea of, like, masculinity.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he was horrified by that. And his wife worked in education, and I think he was just horrified by the idea that he had played any role in popularizing that gun."}
{"id": "1171027638", "date": "2023-04-20", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "How the AR-15 became the bestselling rifle in the U.S.", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Todd Frankel, one of the reporters who worked on The Washington Post investigation into the history of the assault rifle the AR-15. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And that was a hugely controversial ad, you know, especially in light of the Newtown mass shooting at the Sandy Hook Elementary. The smaller gun companies - you know, Bushmaster is smaller than "}
{"id": "1171027638", "date": "2023-04-20", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "How the AR-15 became the bestselling rifle in the U.S.", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Todd Frankel, the lead reporter on the main story of The Washington Post investigation into the history of the assault rifle the AR-15 - how it was adapted from a combat rifle, how it was mass-marketed to civilians, the profits it made for the gun industry and why it became a favored weapon for the perpetrators of mass shootings. So once these ads were out - advertising like, you could have this kind of tactical weapon; it would, like, assure your masculinity - how did it affect gun sales?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And that was a hugely controversial ad, you know, especially in light of the Newtown mass shooting at the Sandy Hook Elementary. The smaller gun companies - you know, Bushmaster is smaller than "}
{"id": "1171027638", "date": "2023-04-20", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "How the AR-15 became the bestselling rifle in the U.S.", "question_index": 16, "text": "Yeah, I was surprised to read that after mass shootings, the sales of the AR-15 go up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, gun sales were sort of tepid at first to start. So you had the assault weapons ban that expires in 2004, and suddenly, what was pretty much illegal is now legal. And the gun companies at first a"}
{"id": "1171027638", "date": "2023-04-20", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "How the AR-15 became the bestselling rifle in the U.S.", "question_index": 17, "text": "Like, let's buy an assault weapon before it's too late, before it's banned.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, and that's because it's the center of the gun conversation, the gun control conversation, where folks say, well, what are we going to do about - how are we going to address these mass shootings?"}
{"id": "1171027638", "date": "2023-04-20", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "How the AR-15 became the bestselling rifle in the U.S.", "question_index": 18, "text": "You know, we talked a little bit about the ad campaigns for the AR-15. There was also some pretty clever marketing behind them, and one of the facets of that is working with video game manufacturers. So what was that relationship like? How did gun manufacturers get their guns into video games as a way of making people want those guns?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Yeah, it's going to be taken. You know, they're coming for your assault weapons, your AR-15. And come and take it - you know, that sort of attitude is on there, too. And so yeah, sales react to"}
{"id": "1171027638", "date": "2023-04-20", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "How the AR-15 became the bestselling rifle in the U.S.", "question_index": 19, "text": "In terms of marketing and sales, another way the gun industry has made profits on AR-15s is through tactical accessories for the guns. What are these accessories, and how are they marketed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean, there's a very popular video game franchise called Call Of Duty, which is sort of a shooting game, right? And so gun manufacturers, you know, would work with these video game manufacture"}
{"id": "1171027638", "date": "2023-04-20", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "How the AR-15 became the bestselling rifle in the U.S.", "question_index": 20, "text": "Are there other things that caused sales of the AR-15 to take off? You know, we've talked a little bit about the marketing, about licensing deals with - you know, between the gun industry and video game makers, how gun sales increase after mass shootings and after Democrats are elected to the White House because of this fear - oh, there's going to be an assault weapons ban. I better buy mine now. Are there other reasons why sales took off in the way they did?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, the AR-15 - one thing that makes it so popular is you can customize it. You know, you could actually change the type of bullets it shoots. You could change how it feels, how it looks. Some folks"}
{"id": "1171027638", "date": "2023-04-20", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "How the AR-15 became the bestselling rifle in the U.S.", "question_index": 21, "text": "Let's take another break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Todd Frankel, and he's the lead reporter in the main story of The Washington Post series investigating the AR-15, its history, its use as a mass assault weapon and how it was marketed to civilians. We'll be right back after a short break, and then we'll talk some more. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think one contributing factor, too, is, you know, in the early to mid-2000s - right? - we are still involved in those campaigns in Iraq and Afghanistan, and there's lots of war imagery coming back t"}
{"id": "1171027638", "date": "2023-04-20", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "How the AR-15 became the bestselling rifle in the U.S.", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Todd Frankel, the lead reporter on the main story of The Washington Post investigation into the history of the assault rifle the AR-15, how it was adapted from a combat rifle, how it was mass marketed to civilians, the profits it made for the gun industry and why it became a favored weapon for the perpetrators of mass shootings. Do you know how many AR-15s have been sold?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think one contributing factor, too, is, you know, in the early to mid-2000s - right? - we are still involved in those campaigns in Iraq and Afghanistan, and there's lots of war imagery coming back t"}
{"id": "1171027638", "date": "2023-04-20", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "How the AR-15 became the bestselling rifle in the U.S.", "question_index": 23, "text": "Do we know how many Americans actually own an AR-15?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So the ATF, the federal government, doesn't track the number of AR-15s sold. But using industry estimates and production estimates, there's - about 20 million AR-15s have been sold in, you know,"}
{"id": "1171027638", "date": "2023-04-20", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "How the AR-15 became the bestselling rifle in the U.S.", "question_index": 24, "text": "Despite the success of sales with the AR-15, there were still people within the gun industry, within the gun world, who objected to it. But there was a lot of pressure to keep those people quiet or to kind of push them out. And one example that is written about in The Washington Post series is Jim Zumbo. Tell us about him and the story of what happened when he objected to the AR-15.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Washington Post conducted a poll that estimated that 1-in-20 U.S. adults, or around 16 million people, own at least one AR-15 in the country."}
{"id": "1171027638", "date": "2023-04-20", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "How the AR-15 became the bestselling rifle in the U.S.", "question_index": 25, "text": "Have you been to a lot of gun shows over the years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Jim Zumbo was a well-known personality in the gun world. And, you know, he had a TV show. He had a column in gun magazines. He was just a well-known guy. And this was in the early 2000s - or late 2000"}
{"id": "1171027638", "date": "2023-04-20", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "How the AR-15 became the bestselling rifle in the U.S.", "question_index": 26, "text": "And how have the displays for AR-15s changed in that period?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have, yeah."}
{"id": "1171027638", "date": "2023-04-20", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "How the AR-15 became the bestselling rifle in the U.S.", "question_index": 27, "text": "What about gun culture?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's remarkable. And it's sort of been gradual. But then only when you look at it, you know, over several years that you sort of realize, oh, it wasn't always this way. And I think even folks who are "}
{"id": "1171027638", "date": "2023-04-20", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "How the AR-15 became the bestselling rifle in the U.S.", "question_index": 28, "text": "So the Sandy Hook massacre in Newtown, Conn., the massacre in the elementary school back in 2012, how did that focus attention on the AR-15, which was the weapon that was used in that assault? One hundred fifty-four rounds were fired. Twenty children were killed. Six school employees were killed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And gun culture, yeah. I mean, they're sort of intertwined. The gun industry is not a huge industry, but - so they are very closely tied to the culture itself. And, you know, they are making directly "}
{"id": "1171027638", "date": "2023-04-20", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "How the AR-15 became the bestselling rifle in the U.S.", "question_index": 29, "text": "There were some large stores, including some chains, that stopped carrying AR-15s, stopped selling them, after Sandy Hook. And the sales increased. There's still a lot of disillusionment about the weapon. How did the NRA and the gun industry push back against that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that was a pivotal moment, right? You know, I think, for a lot of Americans, it's probably the first time they've really been introduced to this weapon. The wounds in there were devastating, kid"}
{"id": "1171027638", "date": "2023-04-20", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "How the AR-15 became the bestselling rifle in the U.S.", "question_index": 30, "text": "Didn't the NRA also tell some of the larger stores, you might be boycotted if you stopped carrying this weapon?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. No. I mean, the gun industry, and led by, you know, the NRA sort of leading its - fighting a lot of its political battles, was very worried and really did believe that perhaps some sort of ban w"}
{"id": "1171027638", "date": "2023-04-20", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "How the AR-15 became the bestselling rifle in the U.S.", "question_index": 31, "text": "Let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Todd Frankel, the lead reporter of the main story in The Washington Post series about the history of the AR-15, the assault rifle. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Yeah. So it's that whole cultural flashpoint where you got to choose sides. Are you with us, or are you against us, right? And you know, for a store that sells outdoor gear and guns as a nice s"}
{"id": "1171027638", "date": "2023-04-20", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "How the AR-15 became the bestselling rifle in the U.S.", "question_index": 32, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Todd Frankel, the lead reporter in the main story of The Washington Post series investigating the history and the marketing of the AR-15 and also why that gun is so lethal. How did gun rights become a top issue for Republicans with often a focus on AR-15s?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Yeah. So it's that whole cultural flashpoint where you got to choose sides. Are you with us, or are you against us, right? And you know, for a store that sells outdoor gear and guns as a nice s"}
{"id": "1171027638", "date": "2023-04-20", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "How the AR-15 became the bestselling rifle in the U.S.", "question_index": 33, "text": "So The Washington Post series described the AR-15 as having become a political symbol in campaigns. How has it been used that way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Especially after the Newtown shooting and you had this sort of standoff between President Obama and the NRA, it was, again, that sort of, are you with us or against us, sort of focus. And it became a "}
{"id": "1171027638", "date": "2023-04-20", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "How the AR-15 became the bestselling rifle in the U.S.", "question_index": 34, "text": "I want you to tell the story of C.J. Grisham and his use of the AR-15 in a political and an identity way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's just - think about those - we see this pop up in the news - those holiday cards from almost, well, certainly only Republican officials holding - their whole family holding an AR-15, you kno"}
{"id": "1171027638", "date": "2023-04-20", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "How the AR-15 became the bestselling rifle in the U.S.", "question_index": 35, "text": "So Grisham's the one who gets convicted.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "C.J. Grisham was down out for a walk with his son in rural Texas. And this is in 2013. And he has an AR-15 with him. And he's just walking down the side of this, like, dirt road, gravel road. And he's"}
{"id": "1171027638", "date": "2023-04-20", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "How the AR-15 became the bestselling rifle in the U.S.", "question_index": 36, "text": "The Second Amendment, as interpreted by gun activists and the gun manufacturers, the gun lobby - the Second Amendment is seen as upholding your right to carry any kind of gun. But no matter how you interpret the Second Amendment, it doesn't literally say anything about ammunition, about the bullets. So there's been proposals to limit high-capacity magazines because that would limit the number of rounds somebody could fire off without having to reload, and if they had to reload, might give an opportunity for somebody to tackle the mass shooter. Do you think that if there was, like, a standalone high-capacity magazine ban that was passed federally - do you think that would hold up in the Supreme Court?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And so he is just sort of outraged by the way he was treated. I mean, he's not doing anything. He's just carrying this gun. We have to imagine this is a decade ago, before open carry and these s"}
{"id": "1171027638", "date": "2023-04-20", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "How the AR-15 became the bestselling rifle in the U.S.", "question_index": 37, "text": "Do you have children in school?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the ones that - there's a handful of states that have their own high-capacity magazine bans, right? So the idea that you can't, within those states, have a magazine that holds more than 10 bulle"}
{"id": "1171027638", "date": "2023-04-20", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "How the AR-15 became the bestselling rifle in the U.S.", "question_index": 38, "text": "Do you worry about them? Do you worry about all the school shootings? And, you know, everybody says, I never thought it would happen in my child's school.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do."}
{"id": "1171027638", "date": "2023-04-20", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "How the AR-15 became the bestselling rifle in the U.S.", "question_index": 39, "text": "Well, Todd Frankel, thank you so much for talking with us. Thank you for your reporting for the series in The Washington Post.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. No, of course. Yeah, no, it's - that's the worst. You know, the Post newsroom, we have so many reporters, and we cover all these mass shootings and these school shootings. And some of these repo"}
{"id": "1171027638", "date": "2023-04-20", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "How the AR-15 became the bestselling rifle in the U.S.", "question_index": 40, "text": "Todd Frankel is the lead reporter in The Washington Post's main article of its investigation into the AR-15. After we take a short break, John Powers will review a new miniseries called \"Drops Of God\" about a contest set in the world of upmarket wine. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 0, "text": "He's in the position of having to learn who he is by seeing what other people think of him. So he has to see...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, in for Terry Gross. Today we're going to remember Anne Perry, a popular mystery writer who for decades kept secret her participation in a murder as a teenager. "}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 1, "text": "...Himself through the eyes of others, and that could be a very unnerving experience.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 2, "text": "What did you imagine it would be like for this detective to learn that he was hated for certain actions that he had taken earlier in life, actions he no longer remembered?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very unnerving indeed because he learns what he has done but not why he has done it. And so often, as one of my mother's favorite sayings, if you just knew the one thing more, you know why somebody do"}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 3, "text": "I want to ask you about something that happened in your own life that really not only was quite a revelation about your life but also gives a whole new meaning, in a way, to the fact that you're writing mystery novels. And, you know, I'm thinking obviously about the murder that you were involved with when you were 15 years old.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it'd be very frightening, a sense of being disoriented and thinking, well, how can I be to blame for something that in a sense was not me and yet was me? And you have to come to terms with it."}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 4, "text": "Before we talk about the murder, tell us something about who you were then. I know you were very sick. You were in a sanitarium.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 5, "text": "So Pauline was your best friend. It was her mother...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was for a while. Who I was could be summed up, I suppose, fairly briefly. I was born in London a few months before the war. I spent some time there. We were there through the blitz. We moved around "}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 6, "text": "...Who was murdered. She wanted to kill her mother.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 7, "text": "So what did she propose to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when I was 15, my parents separated and were going to divorce. My father lost his job, and we were about to leave the country. And Pauline was very ill also. I don't know what it was that she su"}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 8, "text": "Do you remember any of the planning of the murder?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm not prepared to put words into her mouth. I think that would be most unfair. But let me say that I believed that if I did not join her in this, it would be the end of her life. I don't mean "}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 9, "text": "What happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I really don't. It all happened within a space of either hours or one day or more."}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 10, "text": "What do you know now about the murder from what you've since read and been told?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we had intended to make it look like an accident, which was pretty ridiculous. But I don't remember very clearly, I mean, partly because it was 40 years ago and I was in a state of shock and pre"}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 11, "text": "I've read that your friend bludgeoned her mother 45 times with a half-brick that you gave her and that you had admitted to striking at least one blow yourself. Is that - does that seem at all accurate?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it really is what I've been told. I haven't read. It was quick. I know that. It was fairly violent. But beyond that, I don't remember very much. I really, truly don't remember."}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 12, "text": "Questioned by authorities.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Forty-five seems a little bit excessive. I don't know. I would have thought half a dozen was more like it, but we were both questioned without any adult present - either a lawyer, a parent or anybody "}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 13, "text": "Did you know her mother at all?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "By the police. And if 45 was said, I have no idea. I don't think it was said by me."}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 14, "text": "Do you remember what you felt either during or after the murder?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd met her. I mean, I couldn't say I knew her well. I'd met her."}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 15, "text": "And you mentioned the medicine you were taking. I think you - you think in retrospect that that medicine might have impaired your judgment.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't, no. I was pretty shocked. And don't forget; I'd just discovered that my parents were separating. My father had lost his job. And it seemed to me that my best friend was on the brink of death "}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 16, "text": "How did you explain what happened to yourself and to other people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it has been withdrawn because it tends to have that effect. I really can't say how much it affected me. I mean, I'm not competent to say. And there's no good asking me what it is because it's 45"}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 17, "text": "Did your family stick with you during the trial?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't explain it. I just say I was wrong. I mean, my motivation was that I thought it was one life or another, which may sound daft now, but that's how I felt at the time. I truly believed that - I "}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 18, "text": "So you didn't have to talk at the trial at all.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. But don't forget; at 15, you're not allowed to plead anyway. So none of this came out then because you don't get to say anything at all."}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 19, "text": "Was that a relief that you didn't have to speak, or did you want to get...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're not allowed to."}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 20, "text": "...Up there and try to explain yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 21, "text": "Like what?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would love to have been able to explain, no, it was not the way that they said 'cause they said all sorts of crazy things."}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 22, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Pauline kept a diary. And as you do in America, refer to the toilet as the John, in her family, it was referred to as George. You know, you'd say, excuse me; I've just got to go and see George i"}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 23, "text": "Well, could you have told your lawyer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I wanted to say, look just a minute. She means she went to the toilet. But, you know, you can't say anything. And the whole thing became absurd, as if we were out with strings of men. We did once "}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 24, "text": "Your lawyer wanted to present you insane.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't remember having much access to him, honestly. And anyway, they were trying to make the defense of insanity. So I presume they wanted to make us seem as crazy as possible."}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 25, "text": "You know, how did you feel about somebody pleading that you were insane?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was the defense, insanity, which didn't work. I mean, we were totally sane, and we were found to be so."}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 26, "text": "I know you spent about - I think it was 5 1/2 years in prison.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1994 interview with author Anne Perry. The writer of popular historical mystery novels died last week at age 84. For decades, she kept secret that she was "}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 27, "text": "You were 15. What was the prison like, and what - it was a prison for adult women; wasn't it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 28, "text": "So what kind of crimes were the other women who you came in contact with found guilty of?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it was. I believe it was the toughest adult facility in the southern hemisphere."}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 29, "text": "So what was - what kind of cell were you in? What kind of living conditions were you living in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Pretty well everything - a lot of prostitution, some of abortion, some of theft, embezzlement, crimes of violence, all sorts of things. It was the maximum-security prison."}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 30, "text": "Were you afraid of the other women?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One great benefit - I had a cell to myself. But other than that, it is - well, it's a stone cell, about five paces by five. The greatest difficulty was not being able to be clean because there was onl"}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 31, "text": "Did they give you good reason to be afraid?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes, at times - very, very frightened."}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 32, "text": "So after your 5 1/2 years in prison, you were released, and the authorities gave you a new identity. Why did they give you a new identity?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was never beaten up, but I was pretty scared that I might be at some time. I was the only person underage there, and I suppose I learned that if you curl up like a hedgehog or whatever, somebody els"}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 33, "text": "So when you got a new identity, what did they give you - a new name, a change of venue? What did they help you with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because of the sort of hullabaloo that was surrounding the old one. If 40 years afterwards, you can get the kind of noise that you've got now about it, imagine what it would have been at the time."}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 34, "text": "And did the people there know about the trial?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, both. They gave me a new name and a passport in that name. And I returned to Britain, where my family was. I went - I came straight home."}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 35, "text": "So it hadn't gotten publicity in England.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my parents' closest friends knew, yes. But the people in general, no, of course not."}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 36, "text": "And so they...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That I was released? Oh, the original, yes. It got publicity everywhere. But when I was released, no, that was done very quietly, and I just went back to my family..."}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 37, "text": "So the people you knew there didn't make the connection. They either hadn't seen your picture, or they didn't know you before.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...To my mother and stepfather."}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 38, "text": "What happened six weeks ago that made this story a public story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was - from 15 to 21, you do change quite a bit in appearance. And no, nobody made the connection. There has never been any problem whatever until about six weeks ago."}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 39, "text": "How did you feel about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Some journalist in New Zealand managed to trace me and make the connection and then made it public."}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 40, "text": "Have you felt at all a sense of relief that something that you've had to keep secret for so long you don't have to keep secret any longer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely terrible. For the first two or three nights, I would almost like to have died. I thought it would kill my mother. I thought it would probably devastate the complete life that I had built up"}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 41, "text": "I wonder if you feel like you still have to cope with feelings of guilt from...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, just occasionally there's a little spark of relief. Yes. When I begin to realize that that anybody who accepts me now accepts me for what I am and without reservation, But I wouldn't have chosen"}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 42, "text": "...Forty years ago. How did you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I don't."}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 43, "text": "...Resolve that for yourself? I think sometimes the hardest person to forgive is yourself.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 44, "text": "So do you feel there's any connection at all in your life between writing mysteries and being involved with the murder?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that's true. By within the first two or three months, getting down on my knees and saying, I am sorry. I was at fault. I truly am sorry. And from now on, I will do everything I can to be the best"}
{"id": "1171046614", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Anne Perry", "title": "Remembering historical crime novelist Anne Perry", "question_index": 45, "text": "How did you start to write? How old were you when you realized you wanted to do that, and how did you make a living before that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Only in that I now care a great deal more than I used to about right and wrong. And I have a - more of a sympathy and an understanding how you can do something wrong because you're jammed into a corne"}
{"id": "1171048390", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Michael Denneny", "title": "Remembering Michael Denneny, an editor who championed LGBTQ voices", "question_index": 0, "text": "When you say a second generation of gay writers, how was this generation different from the first generation of gay writers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it seemed to me there was a second generation of gay writers coming along who were very excited, and I wanted to find some way to get to a wider audience than the people who had been reading and"}
{"id": "1171048390", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Michael Denneny", "title": "Remembering Michael Denneny, an editor who championed LGBTQ voices", "question_index": 1, "text": "You came of age before the gay liberation movement. Were there many books that you could read that were about being gay?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think the first generation of really openly gay writers in the '70s - people like Ed White, Andrew Holleran, Larry Kramer, Felice Picano - they were the first people to come out publicly and t"}
{"id": "1171048390", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Michael Denneny", "title": "Remembering Michael Denneny, an editor who championed LGBTQ voices", "question_index": 2, "text": "How would you find them - word of mouth?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No - very, very few. And I was always excited the minute I found any one of them."}
{"id": "1171048390", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Michael Denneny", "title": "Remembering Michael Denneny, an editor who championed LGBTQ voices", "question_index": 3, "text": "Does it make you feel more marginalized when you can't find characters like yourself in the books that you read?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Word of mouth, by sheer accident, you know, just suddenly reading something and - or reading an author and suddenly realizing this was a gay book. But in fact, there was very little available."}
{"id": "1171048390", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Michael Denneny", "title": "Remembering Michael Denneny, an editor who championed LGBTQ voices", "question_index": 4, "text": "Were you openly gay when you started in the industry?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, for sure, for sure. That's why I got into this originally in the - by around '74 or '75, I was basically known in publishing as a woman's editor 'cause I was doing a lot of women's books, books by"}
{"id": "1171048390", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Michael Denneny", "title": "Remembering Michael Denneny, an editor who championed LGBTQ voices", "question_index": 5, "text": "Did it change your status at all, or did it change the kinds of books that you were given to edit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. When I started at Macmillan - that was 1971 - I wasn't openly gay at all. By the end of my tenure there, I was because I'd been involved in the founding of Christopher Street. And much to my surpr"}
{"id": "1171048390", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Michael Denneny", "title": "Remembering Michael Denneny, an editor who championed LGBTQ voices", "question_index": 6, "text": "So do you work exclusively now with gay writers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I don't think so. And I haven't come across a problem with anybody. I mean, the first time I met with G. Gordon Liddy, I figured I ought to put it on the table. And I said, you know, Gordon, this "}
{"id": "1171048390", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Michael Denneny", "title": "Remembering Michael Denneny, an editor who championed LGBTQ voices", "question_index": 7, "text": "Well, I'm sure that there are many, many gay writers knocking at your door now", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no. It's about a quarter of the authors that I have. I do all sorts of things - murder mysteries, poetry, Ntozake Shange's novels and plays. No, it's about, I would say, 20, maybe 25% of what I do"}
{"id": "1171048390", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Michael Denneny", "title": "Remembering Michael Denneny, an editor who championed LGBTQ voices", "question_index": 8, "text": "wanting...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no. It's about a quarter of the authors that I have. I do all sorts of things - murder mysteries, poetry, Ntozake Shange's novels and plays. No, it's about, I would say, 20, maybe 25% of what I do"}
{"id": "1171048390", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Michael Denneny", "title": "Remembering Michael Denneny, an editor who championed LGBTQ voices", "question_index": 9, "text": "...In on this new line. Does that put you in a funny situation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep."}
{"id": "1171048390", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Michael Denneny", "title": "Remembering Michael Denneny, an editor who championed LGBTQ voices", "question_index": 10, "text": "It also puts you in the position of having to say no to a lot of people.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It puts me in a situation where I'm having to read an incredible amount."}
{"id": "1171048390", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Michael Denneny", "title": "Remembering Michael Denneny, an editor who championed LGBTQ voices", "question_index": 11, "text": "Well, it must put you in a funny position because on the one hand, I know you're probably really close to some of the writers you work with. And as a person close to a writer, you want to urge them to take it easy if they're sick and to not work. And as their editor and as somebody who really cares about the body of work they're leaving behind, you want to urge them, finish the book. Leave it behind complete if you possibly can.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When Randy Shilts was finishing \"Conduct Unbecoming,\" he collapsed. Basically, he had almost finished the book but was immobilized in a hospital for weeks. And I essentially had to fly out there and, "}
{"id": "1171048390", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Michael Denneny", "title": "Remembering Michael Denneny, an editor who championed LGBTQ voices", "question_index": 12, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, with the case of Randy, he had basically taken great risks with his health in order to finish this book. He was so committed to finishing the book, it had taken precedence in his thinking over h"}
{"id": "1171048390", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Michael Denneny", "title": "Remembering Michael Denneny, an editor who championed LGBTQ voices", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well, I guess there couldn't be a better illustration of how important a writer's work is to them. Did you ever say to one of your writers, look; don't worry about the book; take care of your health first? I mean, which do you feel more loyal to, their health or to their work?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was just a stunning event. But clearly, he was totally committed to getting this, his favorite book, out in a new edition and in cloth."}
{"id": "1171048390", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Michael Denneny", "title": "Remembering Michael Denneny, an editor who championed LGBTQ voices", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, you know how people say doctors shouldn't get too close to their patients, in part because patients sometimes die and you can't - you know, you can't go through that with everyone. You're in that position as an editor now. I mean, you have writers who are dying. And you must ask yourself how close you can allow yourself to get so that you can keep on with your work.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think, basically, being loyal to the writers, you have to allow them to make the decision, you know? It's generally the case. Various people respond in various ways, even if they're not writers. I m"}
{"id": "1171048390", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Michael Denneny", "title": "Remembering Michael Denneny, an editor who championed LGBTQ voices", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well, I'm sure that's a remarkable understatement, that it was getting you down.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1171048390", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Michael Denneny", "title": "Remembering Michael Denneny, an editor who championed LGBTQ voices", "question_index": 16, "text": "Your lover, the book you were editing all about AIDS.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It was, like, everywhere you turned."}
{"id": "1171048390", "date": "2023-04-21", "guest": "Michael Denneny", "title": "Remembering Michael Denneny, an editor who championed LGBTQ voices", "question_index": 17, "text": "What do you think the place of AIDS literature will be after the epidemic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a grim time."}
{"id": "1172164997", "date": "2023-04-26", "guest": "Gretchen Morgenson", "title": "How private equity firms are widening the income gap in the U.S.", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The place where you buy your coffee and doughnut, your child's pre-K learning center, your loved one's nursing home, your dentist or dermatologist's office, the ER and the ambulance that took you there and your pet care provider may be owned or overseen by plunderers. That's what my guest Gretchen Morgenson writes in her new book. The plunderers she's referring to are private equity firms, PEFs, which typically buy companies, then lay off employees and cut costs, services, benefits in order to expand profits. The ultimate goal is to sell off the newly acquired company in a few years, scoring a big profit for the PEF. But it's hard to know whether a company is owned by a private equity firm because PEFs are shrouded in secrecy. Their business model, Morgenson says, widens the income gap by extracting wealth from the many to enrich the few. She's the senior financial reporter for the NBC News investigations unit. She previously was a New York Times columnist and a senior writer in the investigations unit at the Wall Street Journal. She won a Pulitzer Prize in 2002 for her reporting on Wall Street. Morgenson's new book is called \"These Are the Plunderers: How Private Equity Runs - And Wrecks - America.\" Her co-author, Joshua Rosner, is a financial policy analyst. Gretchen Morgenson, welcome back to FRESH AIR. It's been a while. It is a pleasure to have you back.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1172164997", "date": "2023-04-26", "guest": "Gretchen Morgenson", "title": "How private equity firms are widening the income gap in the U.S.", "question_index": 1, "text": "So before we get to things like why so much of the health care industry is now owned by private equity firms, let's start with a little more background about how a private equity firm works. How does it make money?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "1172164997", "date": "2023-04-26", "guest": "Gretchen Morgenson", "title": "How private equity firms are widening the income gap in the U.S.", "question_index": 2, "text": "You know, so the takeover of these companies by private equity firms is often at the expense of the acquired company's health. And you say the acquired company is loaded up with debt. What does that mean? How does the acquired company get loaded up with debt? They've just been purchased.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Private equity firms are what used to be called leveraged buyout funds and firms. You remember these maybe from the '80s and the '90s, but they changed their name. They basically buy companies, load t"}
{"id": "1172164997", "date": "2023-04-26", "guest": "Gretchen Morgenson", "title": "How private equity firms are widening the income gap in the U.S.", "question_index": 3, "text": "In other words, to sell bonds.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "These private equity firms don't use all of their own money to buy the company outright. What they do is they have the company raise debt in the public markets. OK? So they will issue debt to cover th"}
{"id": "1172164997", "date": "2023-04-26", "guest": "Gretchen Morgenson", "title": "How private equity firms are widening the income gap in the U.S.", "question_index": 4, "text": "So for people who don't understand how bonds work, can you explain a little bit more...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct. And so it's not like the private equity firm pays 100% of the transaction to buy the company. What they end up doing is putting down a very small amount, but raising debt on the back of that "}
{"id": "1172164997", "date": "2023-04-26", "guest": "Gretchen Morgenson", "title": "How private equity firms are widening the income gap in the U.S.", "question_index": 5, "text": "...How the acquired company has bonds issued in its name and why that leads to debt?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "1172164997", "date": "2023-04-26", "guest": "Gretchen Morgenson", "title": "How private equity firms are widening the income gap in the U.S.", "question_index": 6, "text": "Why would a company agree to this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the company issues debt - bonds, notes, any kind of fixed income - security. Institutions buy that debt. The debt usually carries a pretty hefty interest rate. And so the company who issued the deb"}
{"id": "1172164997", "date": "2023-04-26", "guest": "Gretchen Morgenson", "title": "How private equity firms are widening the income gap in the U.S.", "question_index": 7, "text": "And as you point out, it's really hard to know what companies are owned by PEFs because they're shrouded in secrecy. And, you know, I should mention that the names of some of the biggest PEFs are names that most people aren't familiar with. You want to name some of them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oftentimes, Terry, the executives of the companies get rich when a transaction like this happens. It is often a series of transactions where the directors approve the sale because they're getting a hi"}
{"id": "1172164997", "date": "2023-04-26", "guest": "Gretchen Morgenson", "title": "How private equity firms are widening the income gap in the U.S.", "question_index": 8, "text": "So what are some of the fields that are the biggest targets of PEFs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, of course, we have Apollo Global Management, which was founded by Leon Black. We have the Blackstone Group, founded by Steve Schwarzman. We have the Carlyle Group, which was founded by David Rub"}
{"id": "1172164997", "date": "2023-04-26", "guest": "Gretchen Morgenson", "title": "How private equity firms are widening the income gap in the U.S.", "question_index": 9, "text": "Health care is huge for private equity firms. How much of the health care sector is now owned by private equity firms?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Private equity firms have savaged the retailing industry in recent years. You may remember the bankruptcy of Toys\"R\"Us. That was a perfect example. But there are many, many cases. And in this - in the"}
{"id": "1172164997", "date": "2023-04-26", "guest": "Gretchen Morgenson", "title": "How private equity firms are widening the income gap in the U.S.", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yes. That's what I was going to ask. I always think it's my local hospital.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This, again, is one of those mysteries that are difficult to solve because we don't have ownership figures, ownership stakes. An estimate of 11% of nursing homes are owned and operated by private equi"}
{"id": "1172164997", "date": "2023-04-26", "guest": "Gretchen Morgenson", "title": "How private equity firms are widening the income gap in the U.S.", "question_index": 11, "text": "When you choose a doctor, is there any way of knowing whether that doctor's practice has been taken over by a PEF? We've talked about how shrouded in secrecy the private equity funds are. But still, is there any way of finding out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And you think your insurance covers it, but it's actually possibly run by KKR or could be run by Blackstone, and it could be a situation where your insurance actually doesn't cover. That's what the su"}
{"id": "1172164997", "date": "2023-04-26", "guest": "Gretchen Morgenson", "title": "How private equity firms are widening the income gap in the U.S.", "question_index": 12, "text": "Can you ask the doctor?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very difficult. Very hard."}
{"id": "1172164997", "date": "2023-04-26", "guest": "Gretchen Morgenson", "title": "How private equity firms are widening the income gap in the U.S.", "question_index": 13, "text": "Would the doctor tell you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You can ask the doctor, yes."}
{"id": "1172164997", "date": "2023-04-26", "guest": "Gretchen Morgenson", "title": "How private equity firms are widening the income gap in the U.S.", "question_index": 14, "text": "So let's focus on nursing homes for a minute, because you said - what? - 10 or 11% of nursing homes...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, you would hope that the doctor would be honest with you - certainly somebody that you've known and gone to for years, yes. Doctors are well aware of this. It's really making this - these takeove"}
{"id": "1172164997", "date": "2023-04-26", "guest": "Gretchen Morgenson", "title": "How private equity firms are widening the income gap in the U.S.", "question_index": 15, "text": "...Are owned by private equity firms, and that might be underestimating it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1172164997", "date": "2023-04-26", "guest": "Gretchen Morgenson", "title": "How private equity firms are widening the income gap in the U.S.", "question_index": 16, "text": "So why are nursing homes such a big target? Where is the money in nursing homes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1172164997", "date": "2023-04-26", "guest": "Gretchen Morgenson", "title": "How private equity firms are widening the income gap in the U.S.", "question_index": 17, "text": "Are there certain patterns in complaints that you heard both from the caregivers at nursing homes and the patients in nursing homes that were taken over by PEFs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we talk in the book about a case in point, which was the Carlyle Group's takeover of ManorCare. And that was an enormous nursing home company. And again, as with retailers, these private equity "}
{"id": "1172164997", "date": "2023-04-26", "guest": "Gretchen Morgenson", "title": "How private equity firms are widening the income gap in the U.S.", "question_index": 18, "text": "Well, let's take a break here and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Gretchen Morgenson, co-author of the new book \"These Are The Plunderers: How Private Equity Runs - And Wrecks - America.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What I heard consistently was that costs were always an issue, that hiring was always supposed to be limited. I had one example of a nursing home in California where the ceiling wasn't fixed. It was -"}
{"id": "1172164997", "date": "2023-04-26", "guest": "Gretchen Morgenson", "title": "How private equity firms are widening the income gap in the U.S.", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Gretchen Morgenson, co-author of the new book, \"These Are The Plunderers.\" It's about private equity firms, or PEFs, which buy companies, then lay off employees and cut costs and benefits in order to expand profits. The ultimate goal is to sell off the newly acquired company in a few years, scoring a big profit for the private equity firms. Not only do private equity firms acquire companies, but there are public pension plans, you know, pension plans for public employees that invest in private equity firms. How are private equity firms affecting public funds and 401(k)s?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What I heard consistently was that costs were always an issue, that hiring was always supposed to be limited. I had one example of a nursing home in California where the ceiling wasn't fixed. It was -"}
{"id": "1172164997", "date": "2023-04-26", "guest": "Gretchen Morgenson", "title": "How private equity firms are widening the income gap in the U.S.", "question_index": 20, "text": "So you have public employee money being invested in private equity firms, which are cutting jobs, cutting benefits for other employees.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Private equity has been a big investment opportunity for public pension funds for decades, really starting in the '90s. California - the Public Employees Retirement System, CalPERS has been a big inve"}
{"id": "1172164997", "date": "2023-04-26", "guest": "Gretchen Morgenson", "title": "How private equity firms are widening the income gap in the U.S.", "question_index": 21, "text": "Can you talk about how investment in private equity firms backfired for teachers in Ohio?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. That's right. Now, you also have - private equity firms are really trying hard to get your 401(k) money, OK? They understand that that's an enormous pot of gold for them. And if they can"}
{"id": "1172164997", "date": "2023-04-26", "guest": "Gretchen Morgenson", "title": "How private equity firms are widening the income gap in the U.S.", "question_index": 22, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Gretchen Morgenson, a Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist and co-author of the new book \"These Are The Plunderers: How Private Equity Runs - And Wrecks - America.\" She's the senior financial reporter for the NBC News investigations unit. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. There's a great example of a case in Ohio, and this was the state teachers' retirement called STRS, Ohio STRS. And this was a situation very typical for a public pension where it had invested sig"}
{"id": "1172164997", "date": "2023-04-26", "guest": "Gretchen Morgenson", "title": "How private equity firms are widening the income gap in the U.S.", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Gretchen Morgenson, co-author of the new book \"These Are The Plunderers.\" It's about private equity firms - PEFs - which buy companies, then lay off employees and cut costs in order to expand profits. The ultimate goal is to sell off the newly acquired company in a few years, scoring a big profit for the private equity firms. Morgenson says these PEFs are having an adverse effect on just about every sector of the economy - from health care to pension funds and retail - and it's affecting our lives, as consumers. Morgenson is senior financial reporter for the NBC News investigations unit. She's also been a New York Times financial columnist and a senior writer in the investigations unit at The Wall Street Journal. She won a Pulitzer Prize in 2002 for her reporting on Wall Street. So let's talk about Donald Trump when he was president and his connection to private equity firms. First of all, he appointed Jay Powell to head the Federal Reserve. What's Jay Powell's connection to PEFs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. There's a great example of a case in Ohio, and this was the state teachers' retirement called STRS, Ohio STRS. And this was a situation very typical for a public pension where it had invested sig"}
{"id": "1172164997", "date": "2023-04-26", "guest": "Gretchen Morgenson", "title": "How private equity firms are widening the income gap in the U.S.", "question_index": 24, "text": "So did the Federal Reserve - under Jay Powell, who was a Trump appointee and is still the chair of the Fed, did the Fed create any policies that intentionally or inadvertently benefited private equity funds?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Jay Powell was an executive - a high-ranking executive at the Carlyle Group in Washington for several years. So he definitely has, you know, the mindset of private equity. Donald Trump also had, as a "}
{"id": "1172164997", "date": "2023-04-26", "guest": "Gretchen Morgenson", "title": "How private equity firms are widening the income gap in the U.S.", "question_index": 25, "text": "So do you think the Biden administration has done anything on behalf of consumers and workers when it comes to private equity firms?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely, Terry. There was a really interesting change that the Fed made. They had never done this before. When COVID just struck and everybody was deeply uncertain and stock market was cratering - "}
{"id": "1172164997", "date": "2023-04-26", "guest": "Gretchen Morgenson", "title": "How private equity firms are widening the income gap in the U.S.", "question_index": 26, "text": "Your book is - in case this isn't already clear - very critical of private equity firms. I mean, just look at the title. \"These Are The Plunderers: How Private Equity Runs - And Wrecks - America.\" So were you able to get any kind of response from the firms that you were writing about so that they could defend themselves?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, actually, the Federal Trade Commission and the DOJ both have announced that they are going to be giving much more scrutiny to private equity acquisitions. So companies that are bought by private"}
{"id": "1172164997", "date": "2023-04-26", "guest": "Gretchen Morgenson", "title": "How private equity firms are widening the income gap in the U.S.", "question_index": 27, "text": "Well, let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Gretchen Morgenson, co-author of the new book \"These Are The Plunderers: How Private Equity Runs - And Wrecks - America.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, for starters, they don't agree. Let's just start there. They disagree that their business model is unsustainable, that their business model harms the vast majority of people it touches and helps"}
{"id": "1172164997", "date": "2023-04-26", "guest": "Gretchen Morgenson", "title": "How private equity firms are widening the income gap in the U.S.", "question_index": 28, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Gretchen Morgenson, co-author of the new book, \"These Are The Plunderers.\" It's about private equity firms, PEFs, which buy companies, then lay off employees and cut costs and services in order to expand profits. The ultimate goal is to sell off the newly acquired company in a few years, scoring a big profit for the PEF. You write that private equity firms have bought public companies that have come under pressure to jettison businesses that strip-mine ecosystems or pollute the planet. You can regulate public companies, but private equity firms are harder to regulate. So what's the connection there between private equity firms buying public companies and then being more opaque and more difficult to regulate?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, for starters, they don't agree. Let's just start there. They disagree that their business model is unsustainable, that their business model harms the vast majority of people it touches and helps"}
{"id": "1172164997", "date": "2023-04-26", "guest": "Gretchen Morgenson", "title": "How private equity firms are widening the income gap in the U.S.", "question_index": 29, "text": "One example you write about shows how when a private equity firm takes over a certain company or a certain sector, that it can influence so many people in so many different ways. And the example I'm thinking of is when a private equity firm bought an aluminum smelting plant in a small town. Tell us about what happened in that instance.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is a great example of how this happens in environmental damage done to the planet. So public companies have been pressured and/or have simply wanted to do this themselves, reduce their carbon foo"}
{"id": "1172164997", "date": "2023-04-26", "guest": "Gretchen Morgenson", "title": "How private equity firms are widening the income gap in the U.S.", "question_index": 30, "text": "Oh, I see. They wanted it just for themselves.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was such a sorry situation. The thing about the Noranda case that is so interesting and telling is that the employees were not the only ones who were hurt. It was a company - aluminum smelter in "}
{"id": "1172164997", "date": "2023-04-26", "guest": "Gretchen Morgenson", "title": "How private equity firms are widening the income gap in the U.S.", "question_index": 31, "text": "Has doing all this research into private equity firms changed any of your behavior as a consumer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. They wanted it just for themselves. And it had to be made up by other ratepayers in Missouri. So you had a situation where Apollo wanted a lower rate and other people had to pay the frei"}
{"id": "1172164997", "date": "2023-04-26", "guest": "Gretchen Morgenson", "title": "How private equity firms are widening the income gap in the U.S.", "question_index": 32, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I certainly do look and see who runs the hospital emergency department..."}
{"id": "1172164997", "date": "2023-04-26", "guest": "Gretchen Morgenson", "title": "How private equity firms are widening the income gap in the U.S.", "question_index": 33, "text": "How do you look and see? How do you look at it? What are you looking up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...In a town that I might be in."}
{"id": "1172164997", "date": "2023-04-26", "guest": "Gretchen Morgenson", "title": "How private equity firms are widening the income gap in the U.S.", "question_index": 34, "text": "And how do you get access to the job listings?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's so crazy what you have to do. So they'll hire Envision, which is a KKR company, or they'll hire TeamHealth, which is a Blackstone company. And they'll say to those companies, OK, run my emergency"}
{"id": "1172164997", "date": "2023-04-26", "guest": "Gretchen Morgenson", "title": "How private equity firms are widening the income gap in the U.S.", "question_index": 35, "text": "I see.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You go on their website."}
{"id": "1172164997", "date": "2023-04-26", "guest": "Gretchen Morgenson", "title": "How private equity firms are widening the income gap in the U.S.", "question_index": 36, "text": "I see.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Envision - we're hiring."}
{"id": "1172164997", "date": "2023-04-26", "guest": "Gretchen Morgenson", "title": "How private equity firms are widening the income gap in the U.S.", "question_index": 37, "text": "No, no. Well, you had a hard job writing this book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Anyway, it's circuitous. They don't make it easy."}
{"id": "1172164997", "date": "2023-04-26", "guest": "Gretchen Morgenson", "title": "How private equity firms are widening the income gap in the U.S.", "question_index": 38, "text": "And I want to thank you for telling us about what you've learned.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Anyway, it's circuitous. They don't make it easy."}
{"id": "1172164997", "date": "2023-04-26", "guest": "Gretchen Morgenson", "title": "How private equity firms are widening the income gap in the U.S.", "question_index": 39, "text": "Gretchen Morgenson's new book is called \"These Are The Plunderers.\" She's senior financial reporter for the NBC News Investigative Unit. After we take a short break, jazz critic Kevin Whitehead will look back on the career of pianist Ahmad Jamal, who influenced many musicians, including Miles Davis, Herbie Hancock and Keith Jarrett. Jamal died last week at age 92. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you for having me."}
{"id": "1172200783", "date": "2023-04-27", "guest": "Vicki Bloom", "title": "This 'full spectrum' doula helps with birth, miscarriage and abortion", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Vicki Bloom, is a doula. Typically, doulas provide support for women during pregnancy and childbirth. But Bloom describes herself as a full-spectrum doula, working with people no matter how the pregnancy proceeds, whether it results in birth, miscarriage, stillbirth or abortion. Since 2010, she's worked with The Doula Project, a New York City-based collective that partners with clinics to support pregnant people, whether the result is childbirth or termination. The doulas are volunteers, which enables The Doula Project to fulfill its goal of providing free emotional, physical and informational support to low-income women and to marginalized communities. Bloom is a member of the Leadership Circle of The Doula Project. She says she's especially drawn to support people who may fall through the cracks of the medical system or feel unheard through the process of birth or abortion. Note to parents of young children - we're going to have an adult conversation about reproductive issues. Vicki Bloom, welcome to FRESH AIR. Can you give us a brief overview of what the work is as a doula in childbirth and what the work is as a doula in abortion?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1172200783", "date": "2023-04-27", "guest": "Vicki Bloom", "title": "This 'full spectrum' doula helps with birth, miscarriage and abortion", "question_index": 1, "text": "Are you seeing a lot more medical abortions because of the end of Roe, or have medical abortions just taken off because they're easier? Like, what kind of changes have you witnessed in the past few years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So a doula in general is a non-medical professional who provides pure support. They're not there in a medical role, so they're not doing any of the medical procedures. They're there for that person as"}
{"id": "1172200783", "date": "2023-04-27", "guest": "Vicki Bloom", "title": "This 'full spectrum' doula helps with birth, miscarriage and abortion", "question_index": 2, "text": "Given how comparatively easy it seems to take, you know, a few pills as opposed to having a clinical abortion, which involves the suctioning of the uterus, why would anyone choose now to have an in-clinic abortion as opposed to a medication abortion?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Medication abortion has been on the rise for a number of years now. And at this point, more than half of early abortions in the United States are done via medication. One big change that happened is o"}
{"id": "1172200783", "date": "2023-04-27", "guest": "Vicki Bloom", "title": "This 'full spectrum' doula helps with birth, miscarriage and abortion", "question_index": 3, "text": "When you're working with a woman who is having an abortion, whether it's in clinic or medication, do you sometimes find that they still have doubts, that they're going through it, but part of their mind is still questioning it? And if so, what role do you play in helping them think it through?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wouldn't necessarily say that a medication abortion is easier. It's different. When you go in for an aspiration abortion into a clinic, it's very fast. You go in, and the actual procedure can take l"}
{"id": "1172200783", "date": "2023-04-27", "guest": "Vicki Bloom", "title": "This 'full spectrum' doula helps with birth, miscarriage and abortion", "question_index": 4, "text": "When you are working as a doula for somebody having an abortion and this person opposes abortion for political or religious or whatever other reasons, but feels it necessary to have one, what's the experience like for you? How do you work with them? What special needs do they have?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't do a lot of choice counseling. By the time people come to me, they certainly usually have made a decision. But I find very frequently that I tell my clients that a right decision does not alwa"}
{"id": "1172200783", "date": "2023-04-27", "guest": "Vicki Bloom", "title": "This 'full spectrum' doula helps with birth, miscarriage and abortion", "question_index": 5, "text": "With medication abortion, you know, you're taking the pills at home. What kind of support does a woman need when she's having that kind of abortion?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm often frustrated when I work with clients who have that orientation, but I do come to them with a lot of compassion because they're coming into that experience with a huge amount of cognitive diss"}
{"id": "1172200783", "date": "2023-04-27", "guest": "Vicki Bloom", "title": "This 'full spectrum' doula helps with birth, miscarriage and abortion", "question_index": 6, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Vicki Bloom. She's a full-spectrum doula who is in the leadership circle of The Doula Project in New York City. We'll be back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They might need all kinds of support. The Doula Project did start our medication abortion support hotline for people to reach out during the process of their medication abortion if they needed support"}
{"id": "1172200783", "date": "2023-04-27", "guest": "Vicki Bloom", "title": "This 'full spectrum' doula helps with birth, miscarriage and abortion", "question_index": 7, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Vicki Bloom, a full-spectrum doula working with people no matter how the pregnancy proceeds, whether it results in birth, miscarriage, stillbirth or abortion. She's in the leadership circle of The Doula Project in New York City. One of your missions is to work with marginalized communities, including people who are lesbians, trans men, people who identify as nonbinary. And I'm wondering, when people who are having birth - particularly the people who identify as trans men or nonbinary - when they're giving birth and they're using female reproductive organs, does it change their relationship to their body?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They might need all kinds of support. The Doula Project did start our medication abortion support hotline for people to reach out during the process of their medication abortion if they needed support"}
{"id": "1172200783", "date": "2023-04-27", "guest": "Vicki Bloom", "title": "This 'full spectrum' doula helps with birth, miscarriage and abortion", "question_index": 8, "text": "When you're talking about pregnancy, you use the word pregnant people as opposed to pregnant women. And I presume that because you work with so many nonbinary pregnant people who don't identify necessarily as women or trans men who certainly don't identify as women. Can you talk about that language change a little bit and how you feel about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In the context of abortion, a trans man or a nonbinary person who identifies more on the masculine side of the binary may find it extraordinarily dysphoric to find themselves pregnant. And that may be"}
{"id": "1172200783", "date": "2023-04-27", "guest": "Vicki Bloom", "title": "This 'full spectrum' doula helps with birth, miscarriage and abortion", "question_index": 9, "text": "What are some of the emotional highs and lows you've experienced as a doula in helping women through childbirth or abortion?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I feel very good about it. I think that this is something which has started to propagate in at least more progressive parts of the birth community and the reproductive justice community because we wan"}
{"id": "1172200783", "date": "2023-04-27", "guest": "Vicki Bloom", "title": "This 'full spectrum' doula helps with birth, miscarriage and abortion", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, Vicki Bloom, I want to thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'd say in terms of lows, some of those experiences where I'm working with somebody, especially in the abortion context, where, like I said, I might only be with them for under an hour, and they"}
{"id": "1172200783", "date": "2023-04-27", "guest": "Vicki Bloom", "title": "This 'full spectrum' doula helps with birth, miscarriage and abortion", "question_index": 11, "text": "Vicki Bloom is a doula and is in the leadership circle of the Doula Project in New York. After we take a short break, TV critic David Bianculli will review the eight-episode drama \"Fatal Attraction,\" a reworking of the 1987 film. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much. It's been a pleasure to talk to you today."}
{"id": "1172419169", "date": "2023-04-27", "guest": "Harry Belafonte", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Harry Belafonte, singer, actor and civil rights icon", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Harry Belafonte, the famous singer, actor, producer and civil rights activist, died Tuesday of congestive heart failure. He was 96. We're going to listen back to the interview I recorded with him in 1993. His obituary in The New York Times said, quote, \"at a time when segregation was still widespread and Black faces were still a rarity on screens large and small, Mr. Belafonte's ascent to the upper echelon of show business was historic,\" unquote. In an appreciation in the Times, Wesley Morris described Belafonte as a folk hero, quote, \"he understood how to dedicate his fame to a politics of accountability more tenaciously than any star of the civil rights era or in its wake. He helped underwrite the Civil Rights Movement, paying for freedom rides. He maintained a life insurance policy on the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. with Coretta Scott King as the beneficiary because Dr. King didn't believe he could afford it,\" unquote. Belafonte helped organize the 1963 March on Washington, at which Dr. King gave his famous \"I Have A Dream\" speech. Harry Belafonte first became known in the U.S. as a singer with his 1956 hits \"Jamaica Farewell\" and \"The Banana Boat Song.\" He popularized calypso in America.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1172419169", "date": "2023-04-27", "guest": "Harry Belafonte", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Harry Belafonte, singer, actor and civil rights icon", "question_index": 1, "text": "In the 1950s, Belafonte started his film career starring in such movies as \"Carmen Jones\" and \"Odds Against Tomorrow.\" But there were few roles for Black actors then. And in the '60s, Belafonte shifted his attention to the Civil Rights Movement while continuing to act and to appear on TV. He was born in New York to a Jamaican mother and a father from Martinique. When he was 5, his mother sent him to Jamaica. He told me why when we spoke in 1993.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Day, is a day, is a day, is a day, is a day, is a day-o. Daylight come, and we want go home. Work all night on a drink of rum. Daylight come, and we want go home. Stack banana till the morni"}
{"id": "1172419169", "date": "2023-04-27", "guest": "Harry Belafonte", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Harry Belafonte, singer, actor and civil rights icon", "question_index": 2, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my mother was - my father was constantly away. She was, for all intents and purposes, a single parent. She was a domestic worker, a woman who was struggling to get over as an immigrant in this c"}
{"id": "1172419169", "date": "2023-04-27", "guest": "Harry Belafonte", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Harry Belafonte, singer, actor and civil rights icon", "question_index": 3, "text": "What did you think of the idea of going to Jamaica?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And was unconscious for a couple of days at - in Harlem Hospital. And that sent a horror through my mother. And she felt that I would perhaps be safer in the mountains of Jamaica than I would be in"}
{"id": "1172419169", "date": "2023-04-27", "guest": "Harry Belafonte", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Harry Belafonte, singer, actor and civil rights icon", "question_index": 4, "text": "Were the families that you stayed with part of your extended family, or were they strangers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I didn't mind the idea of going to Jamaica. What really bothered me was the fact that my mother had to leave us there. And once again, there we were, thrust into the midst of strangers and peopl"}
{"id": "1172419169", "date": "2023-04-27", "guest": "Harry Belafonte", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Harry Belafonte, singer, actor and civil rights icon", "question_index": 5, "text": "Why didn't you stay in one place for a long time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Both. Both extended family, as well as some strangers."}
{"id": "1172419169", "date": "2023-04-27", "guest": "Harry Belafonte", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Harry Belafonte, singer, actor and civil rights icon", "question_index": 6, "text": "Now, how did you get back to New York?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was a matter of economics. I think some people found two additional children to their own families a bit of a burden. They were poor, so we were constantly shifted from place to place so th"}
{"id": "1172419169", "date": "2023-04-27", "guest": "Harry Belafonte", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Harry Belafonte, singer, actor and civil rights icon", "question_index": 7, "text": "Was it hard to readjust to Harlem?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the war broke out between England and Germany. My mother was convinced that - like many people were - that the invincible Nazi machine was going to soon conquer England. And what would happen to"}
{"id": "1172419169", "date": "2023-04-27", "guest": "Harry Belafonte", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Harry Belafonte, singer, actor and civil rights icon", "question_index": 8, "text": "So how were you first exposed to theater?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very hard. I had an accent from the Caribbean, and I looked different. And I had this dyslexic problem that I couldn't adjust to the schools that I was in, and my mother seemed to have - has been very"}
{"id": "1172419169", "date": "2023-04-27", "guest": "Harry Belafonte", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Harry Belafonte, singer, actor and civil rights icon", "question_index": 9, "text": "Could you explain what it was that really reached you about the performance?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I came out of the Second World War, I was kind of looking for where to go and what to do. And in the interim, I became a janitor's assistant in a building, and I repaired the Venetian blinds in t"}
{"id": "1172419169", "date": "2023-04-27", "guest": "Harry Belafonte", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Harry Belafonte, singer, actor and civil rights icon", "question_index": 10, "text": "So when you started to study acting, how did you work on yourself to kind of transform yourself into an actor both in terms of the craft but also in terms of the type of person you thought an actor needed to be?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I saw people of color on a stage articulating a point of view on a subject. And I found it quite magical. And I - mostly, I saw people in motion doing things that were very positive and very creative."}
{"id": "1172419169", "date": "2023-04-27", "guest": "Harry Belafonte", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Harry Belafonte, singer, actor and civil rights icon", "question_index": 11, "text": "Once you fell in love with theater and then got your theater training and developed into an actor, were you able to find parts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when we got the play, my job was to work with a group of young men and women to build sets, and they needed someone to play the young male lead in the play. And they didn't have anybody within -"}
{"id": "1172419169", "date": "2023-04-27", "guest": "Harry Belafonte", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Harry Belafonte, singer, actor and civil rights icon", "question_index": 12, "text": "From the G.I. Bill.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. That was the irony of it all. I then had to deal with racial reality. No matter how much I loved this thing, if I didn't play in the American Negro Theater or once every millennium when a Black pl"}
{"id": "1172419169", "date": "2023-04-27", "guest": "Harry Belafonte", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Harry Belafonte, singer, actor and civil rights icon", "question_index": 13, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded with Harry Belafonte in 1993. Let's pause for a song from his 1958 album \"Belafonte Sings The Blues.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, G.I. Bill of Rights. And what happened was that I was a frequent visitor and a devotee of jazz and a frequent visitor to a place called the Royal Roost. And I went there nightly because our scho"}
{"id": "1172419169", "date": "2023-04-27", "guest": "Harry Belafonte", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Harry Belafonte, singer, actor and civil rights icon", "question_index": 14, "text": "We'll hear more of my 1993 interview with Harry Belafonte after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Well, hello, Mary Ann. You know, you sure look fine. Well, hello, Mary Ann. You know, you sure look fine. Well, hello, Mary Ann. I could love you all the time. Oh, Mary Ann, I say, baby, don"}
{"id": "1172419169", "date": "2023-04-27", "guest": "Harry Belafonte", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Harry Belafonte, singer, actor and civil rights icon", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with Harry Belafonte in 1993. He died Tuesday at the age of 96.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Well, hello, Mary Ann. You know, you sure look fine. Well, hello, Mary Ann. You know, you sure look fine. Well, hello, Mary Ann. I could love you all the time. Oh, Mary Ann, I say, baby, don"}
{"id": "1172419169", "date": "2023-04-27", "guest": "Harry Belafonte", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Harry Belafonte, singer, actor and civil rights icon", "question_index": 16, "text": "You were really one of the first people from the entertainment world to become active within the civil rights movement. Was there a period that was a turning point or a consciousness-raising period for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Well, hello, Mary Ann. You know, you sure look fine. Well, hello, Mary Ann. You know, you sure look fine. Well, hello, Mary Ann. I could love you all the time. Oh, Mary Ann, I say, baby, don"}
{"id": "1172419169", "date": "2023-04-27", "guest": "Harry Belafonte", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Harry Belafonte, singer, actor and civil rights icon", "question_index": 17, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, when I was born."}
{"id": "1172419169", "date": "2023-04-27", "guest": "Harry Belafonte", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Harry Belafonte, singer, actor and civil rights icon", "question_index": 18, "text": "How did you meet Martin Luther King?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it was later on exercised even more when the war came, Second World War, and I got into it. And America propagandized us about ending totalitarianism and ending fascism, and ending racial superior"}
{"id": "1172419169", "date": "2023-04-27", "guest": "Harry Belafonte", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Harry Belafonte, singer, actor and civil rights icon", "question_index": 19, "text": "And you became pretty good friends?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He called me. I was in New York. And he was coming here to visit for the first time in Harlem at Adam Clayton Powell's church, the Abyssinian. He was talking to a group of people from the clergy and a"}
{"id": "1172419169", "date": "2023-04-27", "guest": "Harry Belafonte", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Harry Belafonte, singer, actor and civil rights icon", "question_index": 20, "text": "You're about to perform in New York. How do you feel about the old songs that you recorded in the '50s?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very good friends, became very, very close after I spoke to him in the room and he told me of his mission and what he hoped to be able to achieve, albeit he didn't know quite where the path would lead"}
{"id": "1172419169", "date": "2023-04-27", "guest": "Harry Belafonte", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Harry Belafonte, singer, actor and civil rights icon", "question_index": 21, "text": "There's a certain raspiness to your speaking voice. Does that come through in your singing voice, too, now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I feel very good about them. I thought they were songs that were very much instructive. I thought they brought people to places that they had never been before. And I think it make them take focus on "}
{"id": "1172419169", "date": "2023-04-27", "guest": "Harry Belafonte", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Harry Belafonte, singer, actor and civil rights icon", "question_index": 22, "text": "I want to thank you very much for telling us some of your story. Thank you very much for being with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, because I engage different muscles. When I sing, my diaphragm kicks in more fully and I project more fully. I'm prone to talk softly. And air escapes because of a tilted larynx, which I have, whic"}
{"id": "1172419169", "date": "2023-04-27", "guest": "Harry Belafonte", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Harry Belafonte, singer, actor and civil rights icon", "question_index": 23, "text": "My interview with Harry Belafonte was recorded in 1993. He died Tuesday of congestive heart failure. He was 96. After we take a short break, we'll hear from a doula who works with pregnant women, whether they plan on giving birth or having an abortion. And David Bianculli will review the new eight-episode drama \"Fatal Attraction,\" a reworking of the 1987 film of the same name. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1172739796", "date": "2023-04-28", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. taps into America's psyche on 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Roy Wood Jr., welcome to FRESH AIR. So the bit we just heard, it kind of starts in the middle of a sentence. It starts with but, but it's the opening line of your comedy special. Why did you start in the middle of a thought like that? - 'cause we all know where you're going?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Come on through. No, they got the wristbands. They good. Listen, put this wristband on. Just want to wear that. In case it go down, we'll have that wristband on."}
{"id": "1172739796", "date": "2023-04-28", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. taps into America's psyche on 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 1, "text": "True.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I feel like once you hear the word Confederate flag, I've got your undivided attention."}
{"id": "1172739796", "date": "2023-04-28", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. taps into America's psyche on 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 2, "text": "A national conversation, yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And the first sentence of the special is but if we get rid of the Confederate flag, which, to me, already positions me in an unpopular place of attempting to defend the flag. I just felt like that wou"}
{"id": "1172739796", "date": "2023-04-28", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. taps into America's psyche on 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 3, "text": "And a conversation between you and the other comic. That...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, an actual a conversation."}
{"id": "1172739796", "date": "2023-04-28", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. taps into America's psyche on 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 4, "text": "That's great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That first line as originally performed was to a comedian standing off to the side of the stage."}
{"id": "1172739796", "date": "2023-04-28", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. taps into America's psyche on 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 5, "text": "So that bit sounds like it has a lot of truth behind it. Did you feel when you were growing up in Alabama like Confederate flags warned you away from places and people that spell trouble?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wasn't even acknowledging the crowd. And it got a laugh, and I go, oh, maybe that's the first bit that I should walk on stage from now on, because it instantly puts the audience in their seats. And,"}
{"id": "1172739796", "date": "2023-04-28", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. taps into America's psyche on 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 6, "text": "Did you see a lot of Confederate flags growing up in Alabama?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think the difference between Southern racism and Northern racism is that in the South, you know where you stand, and there's - I don't want to say - a freedom in that, but when you know where "}
{"id": "1172739796", "date": "2023-04-28", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. taps into America's psyche on 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. But I also started as a comedian - my first nine years of comedy - from '98 until I moved to Los Angeles, you know, I was a Southern and Midwest act. So, you know, I did a lot of shows in a lot "}
{"id": "1172739796", "date": "2023-04-28", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. taps into America's psyche on 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 8, "text": "You say you performed at strange places. Did you ever perform at a bar or a club that had a Confederate flag?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Of America, if you will - beautiful places, sometimes questionable people. So I've seen Confederate flags, so, you know - and I don't want to say it doesn't bother me because, you know, it's troubl"}
{"id": "1172739796", "date": "2023-04-28", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. taps into America's psyche on 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Why were you even booked in places that had such a kind of racist audience?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. I've been called the N-word from the stage by somebody in the crowd, and the club owner did nothing to defend me. So there's definitely been questionable situations. But at the end of the "}
{"id": "1172739796", "date": "2023-04-28", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. taps into America's psyche on 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Did they know that you were African American when they booked you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because they had a microphone. I didn't care. Why should I care? I mean, nine times out of..."}
{"id": "1172739796", "date": "2023-04-28", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. taps into America's psyche on 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Now, you say at the end of your stand-up comedy special that, you know, right now you only want to do humor that has some kind of, like, social significance, that has some kind of, like, larger meaning. Is that something relatively new for you in terms of, you know, not just, like, telling jokes, but have it, like, really mean something?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. But they figure Black people are funny, but you just better not date my daughter or hang around town too late. Like, I did a show in Johnson City, Tennessee, which is an eastern Tennessee "}
{"id": "1172739796", "date": "2023-04-28", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. taps into America's psyche on 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, let's hear an example of you on \"The Daily Show.\" And this is really funny. This is from April 29, 2016. And you're doing - basically you're doing a rap video as if you were Donald Trump. And all of the phrases in this are things that Donald Trump...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2018 interview with comedian Roy Wood Jr. This Saturday, the \"Daily Show\" correspondent is scheduled to host the White House Correspondents' Dinner."}
{"id": "1172739796", "date": "2023-04-28", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. taps into America's psyche on 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 13, "text": "...Actually said. Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Every single lyric."}
{"id": "1172739796", "date": "2023-04-28", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. taps into America's psyche on 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 14, "text": "And so - OK, so let's hear it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1172739796", "date": "2023-04-28", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. taps into America's psyche on 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 15, "text": "That is hilarious", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Black Trump, rapping) I have a great relationship with the Blacks - the Blacks. Politicians, all talk and no action. I was down there at 7-11 - I was there. Spent almost nothing on my run for pres"}
{"id": "1172739796", "date": "2023-04-28", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. taps into America's psyche on 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Black Trump, rapping) I have a great relationship with the Blacks - the Blacks. Politicians, all talk and no action. I was down there at 7-11 - I was there. Spent almost nothing on my run for pres"}
{"id": "1172739796", "date": "2023-04-28", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. taps into America's psyche on 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yeah. Yeah, tell us the story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That came from..."}
{"id": "1172739796", "date": "2023-04-28", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. taps into America's psyche on 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 18, "text": "And I love that the chorus was, they love me, everybody loves me. They all love me, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, we were just talking about how much Trump brags. And it was just more of a - you know, like, he literally is like a rapper. He talks about his house, his boat, his properties. And I started "}
{"id": "1172739796", "date": "2023-04-28", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. taps into America's psyche on 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 19, "text": "Yeah, it is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that was fun. And, you know - and that - it's one thing to say - you know, back to the original point of digging deeper, we could easily make the analogy of, hey, here is Trump bragging about th"}
{"id": "1172739796", "date": "2023-04-28", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. taps into America's psyche on 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 20, "text": "Do you have any idea if Donald Trump saw the video?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But there's Ferraris. We hired models. We - a golf course. We went way beyond what could have just been a three-line joke if we just wanted it to be that."}
{"id": "1172739796", "date": "2023-04-28", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. taps into America's psyche on 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Wow. OK. They definitely saw it", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We had a researcher that sent off for press credentials for a Trump rally. At the time, the election was still going on. And they didn't reply to the email. So our researcher hits them up again and go"}
{"id": "1172739796", "date": "2023-04-28", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. taps into America's psyche on 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We had a researcher that sent off for press credentials for a Trump rally. At the time, the election was still going on. And they didn't reply to the email. So our researcher hits them up again and go"}
{"id": "1172739796", "date": "2023-04-28", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. taps into America's psyche on 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 23, "text": "So I want to play another clip from your comedy special \"Father Figure.\" And in this, you know, you're talking about how we live in two different Americas and that when white people don't understand what African Americans experience, it doesn't necessarily mean that the white people are racist. Sometimes it's just that the white people are uninformed. And then as an example, you talk about going to a Best Buy where you had to educate a white salesclerk. You had just bought a cellphone case.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No other words, nothing else. The only thing they replied with was the link to the video."}
{"id": "1172739796", "date": "2023-04-28", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. taps into America's psyche on 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 24, "text": "And the salesclerk told you that you didn't need a bag for it, so you had to explain why you needed the bag.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct."}
{"id": "1172739796", "date": "2023-04-28", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. taps into America's psyche on 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 25, "text": "That's my guest Roy Wood Jr. on his recent comedy special \"Father Figure.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I'll hold it up in the air. I'll \"Lion King\" - I'll hakuna matata an iPhone case out of Best Buy. And it's not his fault. He just didn't understand. He thought he was saving the Earth, but he was "}
{"id": "1172739796", "date": "2023-04-28", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. taps into America's psyche on 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 26, "text": "So is that a true story? Did that really happen you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1172739796", "date": "2023-04-28", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. taps into America's psyche on 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 27, "text": "I thought it was so interesting that you chose somebody to tell a story about who perceives himself as doing the right thing, as being very environmental-minded and therefore trying to not give you a plastic bag, but not getting what it would mean for you to walk out without the bag and the receipt.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that happened in Seattle. And it wasn't as flagrant as I made the salesclerk out to be in the joke. But it was me very politely explaining to this guy, I don't want to walk out of here without a"}
{"id": "1172739796", "date": "2023-04-28", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. taps into America's psyche on 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 28, "text": "I mean, you'd have the receipt. But it would probably be in your pocket. And then if you reach for it, who knows how that would be interpreted.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And..."}
{"id": "1172739796", "date": "2023-04-28", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. taps into America's psyche on 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 29, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's just - no, it's - I don't care if I bought a Tic Tac, I want a bag."}
{"id": "1172739796", "date": "2023-04-28", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. taps into America's psyche on 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 30, "text": "Can I ask you about the neighborhood you grew up in and, if your parents worked, what they did for a living?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University, in for Terry Gross. We're listening back to Terry's 2018 interview with comedian Roy Wood Jr. He's a corres"}
{"id": "1172739796", "date": "2023-04-28", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. taps into America's psyche on 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 31, "text": "Did you ever...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I grew up in Birmingham, Ala., on the West Side. The neighborhood is called West End, ZIP code 35211, one of the worst ZIP codes in the city in terms of crime statistics at the time. I haven't chec"}
{"id": "1172739796", "date": "2023-04-28", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. taps into America's psyche on 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 32, "text": "...Consider joining a gang?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And..."}
{"id": "1172739796", "date": "2023-04-28", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. taps into America's psyche on 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 33, "text": "All the gangbangers came.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. You know, my mom - my parents were separated until I was in the third grade. So when my parents reconciled and we moved to Birmingham - my mother and I left Memphis and went to Birmingham, you kno"}
{"id": "1172739796", "date": "2023-04-28", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. taps into America's psyche on 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 34, "text": "But the goal was to keep you out of trouble, and all the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, bangers would come. Regular kids would come."}
{"id": "1172739796", "date": "2023-04-28", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. taps into America's psyche on 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 35, "text": "...Troublemakers were coming to play basketball.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, but..."}
{"id": "1172739796", "date": "2023-04-28", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. taps into America's psyche on 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 36, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK, but so then you asked me what my father did, and here's how it ties in."}
{"id": "1172739796", "date": "2023-04-28", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. taps into America's psyche on 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 37, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My father was a radio personality in the city."}
{"id": "1172739796", "date": "2023-04-28", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. taps into America's psyche on 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 38, "text": "What kind of show did your father do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he was highly respected. My dad was a civil rights journalist back in the '60s and '70s. He was embedded - any march you can find me footage of, I'm sure my dad is no more than two or three steps "}
{"id": "1172739796", "date": "2023-04-28", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. taps into America's psyche on 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 39, "text": "Wow. That must have been amazing. Now, you started out as a journalism student in college. Did your father inspire you to head in a journalism - toward a journalism career, a goal that you did not exactly fulfill? But...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My father did - he did a jazz show. He did a political commentary show, but he also did morning news as well. So he was - like, on your way to work - and in these days in the '80s, you have to remembe"}
{"id": "1172739796", "date": "2023-04-28", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. taps into America's psyche on 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 40, "text": "...Kind of close - I mean, you're doing \"The Daily Show,\" so there's a lot of news in that. It's just a comedy take on real news.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not really."}
{"id": "1172739796", "date": "2023-04-28", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. taps into America's psyche on 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 41, "text": "Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did everything in my power to not be like my father."}
{"id": "1172739796", "date": "2023-04-28", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. taps into America's psyche on 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 42, "text": "So you carry his name. You're Roy Wood Jr. And in Birmingham where you grew up, your father's name really meant something after he died. What was the significance of the name? Did people remember him for a long time? Were you still seen as his son for a long time while you lived in Birmingham?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, and - 'cause it's all journalism and radio. And it was cool, but I was an adrenaline junkie. I wanted to be a firefighter. And up until my father's death my senior year of high school, that "}
{"id": "1172739796", "date": "2023-04-28", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. taps into America's psyche on 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 43, "text": "So what was it like for you to go out on your own on the road, where people didn't know your father? You were really, like, starting from scratch. Was that a good thing for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In Birmingham, I'll always be my father's son. That's just what it is. And there's nothing I can do to change that. You know, he was first. He was first, and he was impactful. And to be fair, he said "}
{"id": "1172739796", "date": "2023-04-28", "guest": "Roy Wood Jr", "title": "Comic Roy Wood Jr. taps into America's psyche on 'The Daily Show'", "question_index": 44, "text": "It's really been such a pleasure talking with you. Thank you so much for joining us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that was a good thing, you know? I've fought that for a long time because, you know, there was some degree of resentment between me - towards my father because I always - I never felt like I got"}
{"id": "1173970179", "date": "2023-05-04", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' welcomes new co-host Tonya Mosley", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. If you're a regular listener to FRESH AIR, you've heard me introduce interviews by guest interviewer Tonya Mosley. Well, Tonya has today's interview, but she's no longer a guest interviewer. I'm happy to say she is now FRESH AIR's co-host. You'll be getting to hear more of her interviews on our show. You may be wondering what does that mean for Dave Davies, who's been doing interviews on our show for nearly 20 years and has developed a big following? Well, here's the story. For a long time, he's been wanting to do fewer interviews and make room for other things in his life, but we just kept roping him back in. Over the past year, he's been gracious enough to actually take on more than he expected instead of less. Fortunately for us and for you, we're not allowing him to completely leave. He's going to remain part of the FRESH AIR family and keep doing interviews but fewer of them. If you're wondering what this means for me, I'll still be the host and still do about the same number of interviews I've been doing. We're thrilled that Tonya is now an official part of the FRESH AIR family. Let me tell you a little bit about her. Let's start with her resume. As you may already know, Tonya served as a correspondent and host of Here & Now, the midday radio show co-produced by NPR and WBUR in Boston. She served as a host and the Silicon Valley bureau chief at KQED in San Francisco. Before that, she was a TV correspondent for Al Jazeera America and a TV reporter in several cities. She was awarded a John S. Knight Journalism Fellowship at Stanford University, where she co-created a workshop for journalists on the impact of implicit bias on reporting. She won a Murrow Award from the Radio Television Digital News Association for her public radio series Black In Seattle and an Emmy in 2016 for her piece \"Beyond Ferguson.\" I highly recommend the current season of her podcast, \"Truth Be Told.\" It's about the use of psychedelics to help deal with trauma, specifically racial trauma. She intertwines her reporting with her own experiences of racially related trauma and the retreat she went to to take mushrooms in a therapeutic setting. The fourth episode was just posted. I've heard the first three, and they've been fascinating and enlightening. Tonya, it's so great to have you as co-host. You're in LA, where you live with your family. And you'll be working out of NPR West, NPR's studio in LA. I will, as always, be in Philadelphia. Working out of two different coasts is something new that our producers and I will have to get used to, but you've done that before with Here & Now, which is produced out of Boston. What was that like on your end, working with people on another coast?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1173970179", "date": "2023-05-04", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' welcomes new co-host Tonya Mosley", "question_index": 1, "text": "How different is FRESH AIR from the work you've done before?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I will first say this is an absolute pleasure. And it's amazing to hear you read my bio. But, you know, when I started with Here & Now 3 1/2 years ago, it was just a few months before the pa"}
{"id": "1173970179", "date": "2023-05-04", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' welcomes new co-host Tonya Mosley", "question_index": 2, "text": "Oh, good. That sounds so great. What kinds of interviews are you most looking forward to doing or subjects that you most want to cover?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like you, I have interviewed thousands of people throughout my career. But the difference in my work versus the work of FRESH AIR is that my experiences with people were very short - five minutes, 10 "}
{"id": "1173970179", "date": "2023-05-04", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' welcomes new co-host Tonya Mosley", "question_index": 3, "text": "Well, Tonya, I'm so glad you're part of the show. And I'm looking forward to doing a real interview with you in the near future so that we can all get to know you better. And in the meantime, I just want to say welcome. It is great to have you as co-host. You have today's interviews. So tell us what they're about.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, that's a difficult question for someone like me because, you know, I used to shy away from the term generalist because it sounded like maybe I had no direction. But really, I am a generalist"}
{"id": "1173970179", "date": "2023-05-04", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' welcomes new co-host Tonya Mosley", "question_index": 4, "text": "Well, Tonya, I just want to say again, it is a pleasure to have you as co-host of the show. And now let's hear your interview.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we're looking into a series of investigative reports over the last few months which has revealed that migrant children, most of them from Central America, are working in some of the most dangero"}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 0, "text": "So when you were on stage, you know, with the reunited and the new version of the Dolls and you were doing the old Doll songs, did you have any, like, flashbacks to things that you had totally forgotten about? Like, did memories, like, surface of things that were really interesting that you had completely forgotten about until you were back in that setting again?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I say I'm in love, you best believe I'm in love, L-U-V. (Singing) I always saw you just before the dawn. All the other kids were just dragging along. I couldn't believe the way you seemed to be, "}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 1, "text": "Any historian would want to know all about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I have memories, but, God, they're vague, you know? I mean, I remember the first time we made a record with Todd Rundgren. And the only thing I remember is the lights on the control board. I tho"}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 2, "text": "Oh, you had to relearn your own songs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Of making that first record. That's the - and, you know, people think I'm kidding when they ask, well, what was it like making that first record because, you know, it kind of became this benchmark "}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 3, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it really holds up, you know? It's kind of like a declaration that I think is timeless. So there's a lot of stuff like that in the songs, which - let me explain something to you. There was a t"}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 4, "text": "In spite of the fact that you don't remember a whole lot about parts of the early days of the Dolls, do you remember writing the song \"Personality Crisis\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nobody has an original idea."}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 5, "text": "And let's just describe what Charles Ludlam's theater was. He used to dress in drag a lot as the leading lady in these, like, Greta Garbo kind of roles and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I don't remember exactly sitting down and writing the words, but I remember where I got the name because I was kind of, like, an acolyte in Charles Ludlam's \"Ridiculous Theatre\" when I"}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, but it was so much more than that."}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 7, "text": "Well, why don't we hear \"Personality Crisis\" as performed by the New York Dolls at the Meltdown Festival over the summer? So this is from \"The Return Of The New York Dolls.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was really very intelligent stuff that he used to do. And he used to combine a lot of genres of, you know, classical playwriting and - you know, like Moliere, he would put in with something kitschy"}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 8, "text": "In the liner notes for the DVD and the CD, you write about Arthur Kane. This was this was his last performance. He was the bass player of the band. And it was Arthur Kane who knocked on your door and recruited you to be in the Dolls when the band was being formed. He died just a few weeks after the concert. Did you even know he was sick?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2004 interview with David Johansen, who co-founded the band the New York Dolls. They spoke when the band reunited for a festival in England. Their performa"}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. And neither did he. You know, he had had this incredible life - Arthur. And he was just this really brilliant guy who had this incredible insight into reality that was - it was just one step to th"}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, let's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "His only word became woof. Anyway, he went through all this stuff - I mean, I can't begin to tell you - in his life. He fell out a window. He did this. He got hit by a car. He did this. He did that. A"}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 11, "text": "Let's talk about how he did recruit you for the band. He knocked on your door at your apartment in Manhattan. You were - what? - around 19 or something.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...He had this very high voice, and he was 6 foot 5 or something."}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 12, "text": "What did he tell you about this new band?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 13, "text": "What were some of the things that you knew you didn't want to be about, the kind of music that you thought had dead-ended?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there was a guy who lived in my building who I used to kind of, you know, jam with and strum guitars, and he was this Colombian guy who played bongos. And we used to just sit around and play mus"}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, you know, at that time there was, like, these interminable drum solos. And you know what happens when the drum solo stops. It's the worst. It's - then the bass takes a solo..."}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 15, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And stuff like that, you know? And we just wanted to kind of have some really wham-bam songs. And I mean, for me, the whole thing was like - if you have to compare it to something, like a Little Ri"}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 16, "text": "Now, on the album cover of the New - of the album \"The New York Dolls,\" you're all dressed in this kind of trashy drag with a lot of eye makeup and lipstick. You're wearing a bouffant wig. I assume it's a wig.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And within 45 seconds, he was half-naked and sweating like a pig. And we just wanted to make an explosion, you know, of excitement. So that's what was missing. You know, rock 'n' roll had become very "}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 17, "text": "It wasn't a wig.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it wasn't a wig."}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 18, "text": "It used your hair for it because it's very bouffant...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 19, "text": "Somebody teased it, right. And you're wearing what looks like capri pants and high-heeled clogs and open cardigan revealing your bare chest. And you're staring at yourself in the mirror of a makeup compact.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, somebody teased it. I didn't do it."}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 20, "text": "And the band's name is written in lipstick.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 21, "text": "For those of us who didn't get to see you onstage, how did that compare with how you actually looked onstage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that was probably, you know - I mean, I think, you know, to the average civilian, it probably didn't look any different. But to us, we were, like, dressing up a little bit more, make it a little"}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 23, "text": "What inspired your interest in or willingness to be in a kind of drag for performances? I mean, you mentioned you had been with Charles Ludlum's Ridiculous theater. And drag was often a part of their performances in theater. So where did you see it fitting into your music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For the record cover, you know? You know, Sylvain was in the rag trade with Billy. They had this little sweater company and - called Truth and - well, they sold it to this company called Truth and Sou"}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 24, "text": "Did a lot of people early on assume that you were gay because of the way you dressed in performance or because of the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, we were - you know, the hotbed of revolution at that time was, you know, St. Mark's Place and Second Avenue. And through that, you know, there were so many artists there and, you know,"}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 25, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. I don't know. I mean, it was obvious we weren't gay. I mean, you know, I..."}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 26, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like, you could say, like - you could be talking to somebody and go, oh, that Hitler. And they go, gay, you know? So I mean, some..."}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Some people just think everybody's gay. But I don't know."}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 28, "text": "The band was so - originally so used to performing in - like, in Manhattan, in The Village, where people, like, knew the band. The people who came were a part of the same, like, arts subculture that the band was...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies, in for Terry Gross. Let's get back to her interview with David Johansen. In 1971, he co-founded the band the New York Dolls. The band never sold many records, but i"}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 29, "text": "...A part of. But when you went on the road in America, did you start playing in places where people weren't kindred spirits in the same way and they didn't necessarily get what you were doing and didn't know how to react to it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 30, "text": "What for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes and no. I mean, it's very interesting. Like, you know, there were, like, Rust Belt places - you know, like Detroit and Cleveland and places like that - that people would go crazy for us. And they "}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 31, "text": "How did people respond to you in prison?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Went to the hoosegow in Memphis, which is - I was dressed like Liza Minnelli at the time. So it wasn't the most relaxing night I ever had."}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 32, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In jail?"}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 33, "text": "What were the charges?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just, like, hid under these, like, Lysol-smelling, like, Army blankets. And then this guy woke up. And he went like, oh, damn. You're David Johansen. And I was like, quiet. Quiet. Quiet. And then he"}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 34, "text": "Right. I understand", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Inciting a riot. The cops - you know, the cops wanted to mess the thing up, and they started beating on kids and - because they got up and danced. And I stopped the music. And I started explaining to "}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 35, "text": ". Why did the New York Dolls break up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Inciting a riot. The cops - you know, the cops wanted to mess the thing up, and they started beating on kids and - because they got up and danced. And I stopped the music. And I started explaining to "}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 36, "text": "What did you think when you saw the Sex Pistols, the Ramones? Your band, the Dolls, preceded punk, but it was certainly influential on a lot of punk bands and had the same sensibility in a lot of ways. So when you saw that sensibility just really become so popular, what did you think?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Inertia. I don't know. You know, I think we got to a point where - I like to think, you know, it was a project that we finished. But there was, like, factions in the group that were, you know, more in"}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 37, "text": "I want to skip ahead to the '80s and '90s when you performed a lot as Buster Poindexter. And, you know, the New York Dolls were so into a kind of pre-punk sensibility and were very high energy and very raw. And, you know, Buster Poindexter is much more of a kind of lounge, more Vegas-oriented kind of persona, you know. Instead of in drag on the cover, you know, the Buster Poindexter character is in a tuxedo. And...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2004 interview with David Johansen, who co-founded the band the New York Dolls. They spoke when the band reunited for a festival in England. Johansen is th"}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 38, "text": "Well, that's the thing. No, no, but that's exactly the thing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's all drag, Terry."}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 39, "text": "Exactly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I mean, Birkenstocks are drag..."}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 40, "text": "Yeah, exactly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know what I'm saying?"}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 41, "text": "So have you always felt like you were standing back and knowing that any kind of drag that you were putting on, any kind of outfit or whatever you were putting on for performance, was always that - that you always knew it was some kind of drag or another?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Anyone who's, like - everybody is saying something with their clothes, you know?"}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 42, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, the thing with Poindexter is we - there was a little club, like, a saloon, an Irish bar around the corner from my house. I was living in Gramercy Park. It was two blocks from my house."}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 43, "text": "Right, right, right. Well, that image was encouraged, like on the cover of the \"Buster Poindexter\" album - you're drinking a martini...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I went in to do that, and I just picked whatever songs. I had been listening to a lot of jump blues at the time, but I also did, you know, like, \"The Seven Deadly Virtues\" from \"Camelot\" and, you k"}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 44, "text": "...In a tuxedo with your pinky ring", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 45, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 46, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then I was back on..."}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 47, "text": "Right. Well, I want...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "See, I was walking to work. I was making a nice living. And then we had a hit, and, you know, it all went to hell because we had to go back on the road."}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 48, "text": "I want to play something from the Buster Poindexter era and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "See, I was walking to work. I was making a nice living. And then we had a hit, and, you know, it all went to hell because we had to go back on the road."}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 49, "text": "No, no. I wasn't going to. I was going to play...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Don't play \"Hot, Hot, Hot.\""}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 50, "text": "You're really tired of it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank God."}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 51, "text": "Oh. I was going to play \"Bad Boy.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's the bane of my life."}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 52, "text": "Tell me why you recorded this. And this is a cover.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 53, "text": "Yeah. OK, well, let's hear it. This is from the \"Buster Poindexter\" album.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't know. It's just a good song. It was written by Lil Armstrong. And I always liked it, ever since I was a kid."}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 54, "text": "That's \"Bad Boy,\" from David Johansen's album \"Buster Poindexter.\" David Johansen is my guest, and his first band, the New York Dolls, has a reunion concert that was just released on CD and DVD. It seems to me that you've had so many different characters you've inhabited as a performer. And I'm wondering how much you think your career as an actor has come into play in your career as a musician, you know, because before you were even in the New York Dolls, you were with the Ridiculous Theater Company in New York. And over the years, you've been in, you know, a lot of movies as well.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Buster Poindexter, singing) Bad boy - la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la la. All dressed up in fancy clothes. I'm taking the trouble to turn my night int"}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 55, "text": "You once said back in the Buster Poindexter era, Buster can have this great life in the public eye and take the rap for everything, and then David can go home", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I guess, you know, there's a lot of a kind of acting involved. I - you know, I have this friend, Elliott Murphy, who's a singer. He lives in Paris now. I remember when I started doing Buster Poi"}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 56, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I guess, you know, there's a lot of a kind of acting involved. I - you know, I have this friend, Elliott Murphy, who's a singer. He lives in Paris now. I remember when I started doing Buster Poi"}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 57, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. You know, it's funny because my mother, when Buster came out, she said, you know, this is the most genius idea you've ever come up with."}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 58, "text": "Now, you have a show on Sirius, which is one of the satellite radio stations.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is great. And I think that was her idea that, you know, Buster can take the rap. Politicians should do it."}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 59, "text": "Who are you as a DJ? Are you just yourself, or do you have a...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 60, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have a show called the \"Mansion Of Fun,\" and I'm kind of like Sri Rama Poindexter Johansen."}
{"id": "1174289730", "date": "2023-05-05", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "New York Dolls co-founder David Johansen helped pave the way for punk", "question_index": 61, "text": "Well, David Johansen, great to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And - I'm very taken with Sri Ramakrishna lately because I read a biography of his and thought, man, that guy knew how to live. And he called the planet the mansion of fun, so I named my show after th"}
{"id": "1174962751", "date": "2023-05-09", "guest": "Henry Grabar", "title": "'Paved Paradise' examines how parking has changed the American landscape", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Drivers and passengers, how much time have you wasted circling around and around searching for a parking spot? Have you nearly gotten killed by someone competing for the same spot? Are you outraged by prices charged by commercial parking garages? Or maybe you live in a suburb that's been paved over for parking lots that are now half-empty? My guest, Henry Grabar, tells the stories behind these familiar problems in his new book, but he also writes about larger issues that you might not be aware of. He describes the book as, in part, the story of how we destroyed our cities in search of more and more available parking and the people who helped make it so - the mall builders, mobsters, police and the politicians, the garage magnates and community groups. There are new alternatives in the works for dealing with traffic and parking. He covers those, too, in his new book, \"Paved Paradise: How Parking Explains The World.\" Grabar is a staff writer at Slate who covers housing, transportation and urban policy. He was the editor of the book \"The Future Of Transportation.\" Henry Grabar, welcome to FRESH AIR. Before we get into the big issues, can we trade an example or two of what we find most frustrating or weird about parking? I'll start with, in the North, when you dig out a spot for your car so you can drive out after a snowstorm, what people have often done in Philly is put a lawn chair or a trash can or some piece of furniture in the parking spot to reserve it to say, this is mine. I dug this out, and I'm keeping it. And I don't know if that happens in Brooklyn, where you live, but where does that date back to? Do you know? Like, where does this tradition start? At first, I thought this is just a Philly thing, and now I realize it's not.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1174962751", "date": "2023-05-09", "guest": "Henry Grabar", "title": "'Paved Paradise' examines how parking has changed the American landscape", "question_index": 1, "text": "That's right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've seen that practice in Chicago, where I lived when I was writing this book. I know it happens in Boston. I believe it happens in Pittsburgh. I think pretty much wherever it snows and there is stre"}
{"id": "1174962751", "date": "2023-05-09", "guest": "Henry Grabar", "title": "'Paved Paradise' examines how parking has changed the American landscape", "question_index": 2, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Move one of these objects and take the space, that you might be beaten over the head with it, but also, that it's defended by politicians. You know, I think when Boston discussed, for example, limi"}
{"id": "1174962751", "date": "2023-05-09", "guest": "Henry Grabar", "title": "'Paved Paradise' examines how parking has changed the American landscape", "question_index": 3, "text": "OK. Your turn. A frustrating or bizarre issue relating to parking that you've dealt with.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like the gold miner and pioneers, residents have a right to stake their claims. And I think you can see the entitlement in the entire American parking picture in that one expression."}
{"id": "1174962751", "date": "2023-05-09", "guest": "Henry Grabar", "title": "'Paved Paradise' examines how parking has changed the American landscape", "question_index": 4, "text": "And this is a good moment to mention that your book isn't anti-car, but it's looking for alternatives to the problems that we have. So I have one more I want to mention to you. Parking garages drive me crazy. First of all, they charge a fortune now. And second of all, the way they're designed - like, the ramps I particularly hate in the garages where there's, like, six stories or more is that sometimes they're really narrow spirals, so you have to drive, like, super slowly, or else you're going to, like, crash into the wall. And it's almost, like, dizzying. And then in the parking spot itself, the parking spot is often way too small with a pole on either side. So it is so easy to smash into one of those poles or not be able to open the door 'cause your other - the other car is too close to you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I just hate not being able to find a parking space. I find, like, the advanced knowledge, the premonition that I will have trouble parking discourages me from driving. And I think about it fro"}
{"id": "1174962751", "date": "2023-05-09", "guest": "Henry Grabar", "title": "'Paved Paradise' examines how parking has changed the American landscape", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Parking garages are, I think, some of Americans' least favorite places. And one thing I learned when I was working on this book was that at the dawn of the auto age, as parking garages become a "}
{"id": "1174962751", "date": "2023-05-09", "guest": "Henry Grabar", "title": "'Paved Paradise' examines how parking has changed the American landscape", "question_index": 6, "text": "I'm going to just mention one more thing. In Philly, they're very vigilant about ticketing you, like, a minute after your meter has expired or towing you if you're in a tow-away zone, and you might not even know it 'cause the sign might be covered by trees, so you can't even see it. And if you are towed, your car is taken to the land of junkyards far away from the central part of the city where you've parked. It's really expensive just to get to where your car is. And then you're met with, like, fee after fee, and it's hundreds of dollars. Is that pretty typical in cities?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Are offering a service, the reality is, it's a commodity. And the only important thing about a parking space is that it's in front of you when you need it. And so obviously, they do try to maximize"}
{"id": "1174962751", "date": "2023-05-09", "guest": "Henry Grabar", "title": "'Paved Paradise' examines how parking has changed the American landscape", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yeah, I'm glad you brought up the double-parked delivery trucks because you write about how some of these, like, delivery trucks have deals in New York with the city that they pay less of a fine if they're ticketed. And so which kind of delivery services are we talking about, and what is this deal?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think so. Essentially, parking enforcement serves as a subset of what is now known as revenue-driven policing. And the idea here is that cities take advantage of these parking laws to try and get as"}
{"id": "1174962751", "date": "2023-05-09", "guest": "Henry Grabar", "title": "'Paved Paradise' examines how parking has changed the American landscape", "question_index": 8, "text": "You say in your book that we want parking that's convenient, available and free, but it's impossible to meet all three demands. Why is that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So you can only imagine how much traffic is being blocked by the fact that there is so much double parking related to the shortage of curbside zones for them to do these deliveries. In short, there ar"}
{"id": "1174962751", "date": "2023-05-09", "guest": "Henry Grabar", "title": "'Paved Paradise' examines how parking has changed the American landscape", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Henry Grabar, author of the new book \"Paved Paradise: How Parking Explains The World.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think there's a few reasons. I mean, number one is perhaps geometry, right? Like, cars take up a lot of space. If you go to a dense city neighborhood where everyone would like to drive at the same t"}
{"id": "1174962751", "date": "2023-05-09", "guest": "Henry Grabar", "title": "'Paved Paradise' examines how parking has changed the American landscape", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Henry Grabar, author of the new book \"Paved Paradise: How Parking Explains The World.\" It's about how parking codes, parking lots and garages have shaped the landscape of cities and suburbs and limited the creation of affordable housing. One of the main points of your book is that parking has determined the landscape of cities and suburbs, and that might seem obvious, but it might not to our listeners. So I want you to explain what you mean by that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think there's a few reasons. I mean, number one is perhaps geometry, right? Like, cars take up a lot of space. If you go to a dense city neighborhood where everyone would like to drive at the same t"}
{"id": "1174962751", "date": "2023-05-09", "guest": "Henry Grabar", "title": "'Paved Paradise' examines how parking has changed the American landscape", "question_index": 11, "text": "So some of the really nice things about older cities wouldn't be legal now, if you're starting from scratch and building.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. So when I think about parking's effect on the landscape, one of the things that I'm thinking about are the laws that were passed in the 1950s and '60s in this country that require that every typ"}
{"id": "1174962751", "date": "2023-05-09", "guest": "Henry Grabar", "title": "'Paved Paradise' examines how parking has changed the American landscape", "question_index": 12, "text": "And you say these parking codes have also limited the amount of affordable housing. What's the connection?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think almost every built form that you can imagine from the early 20th century would be illegal to build in most cities today, perhaps because of zoning, but I think more fundamentally because of pa"}
{"id": "1174962751", "date": "2023-05-09", "guest": "Henry Grabar", "title": "'Paved Paradise' examines how parking has changed the American landscape", "question_index": 13, "text": "Are cities and suburbs starting to rethink those parking codes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so parking costs money and takes up space. Let me give you a specific example. I traveled to Austin, Texas, a couple years ago. And Austin, Texas, for a long time - this is beginning to change n"}
{"id": "1174962751", "date": "2023-05-09", "guest": "Henry Grabar", "title": "'Paved Paradise' examines how parking has changed the American landscape", "question_index": 14, "text": "Let me stop you there. You're saying that creating more parking creates more traffic because if there's more parking, you're more likely to drive.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. There's been a great deal of reform since I started writing this book. I think I - in 2017, when I began thinking about this idea that parking would make an interesting subject for a book, there "}
{"id": "1174962751", "date": "2023-05-09", "guest": "Henry Grabar", "title": "'Paved Paradise' examines how parking has changed the American landscape", "question_index": 15, "text": "Is there another point you wanted to make before I interrupted you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's counterintuitive. But at the beginning - right? - in the 1950s and '60s, when cities were sort of swamped by traffic, they figured, OK, we have to build parking because if we don't build pa"}
{"id": "1174962751", "date": "2023-05-09", "guest": "Henry Grabar", "title": "'Paved Paradise' examines how parking has changed the American landscape", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Henry Grabar. He's the author of the new book \"Paved Paradise: How Parking Explains The World.\" We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The other thing I think is behind this big reform movement is housing, right? So the United States has a serious housing affordability problem right now, and some studies estimate that we are millions"}
{"id": "1174962751", "date": "2023-05-09", "guest": "Henry Grabar", "title": "'Paved Paradise' examines how parking has changed the American landscape", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Henry Grabar, author of the new book \"Paved Paradise: How Parking Explains The World.\" It's about how parking codes, parking lots and garages have shaped the landscape of cities and suburbs and also limited the creation of affordable housing. Let's talk about shopping malls. They were, in part, the creation of a kind of idealistic vision of retail being indoors and protected from the elements, and you could go from one store to another just, like, a few steps away. So talk about that vision and how parking kind of undermined some of the goal.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The other thing I think is behind this big reform movement is housing, right? So the United States has a serious housing affordability problem right now, and some studies estimate that we are millions"}
{"id": "1174962751", "date": "2023-05-09", "guest": "Henry Grabar", "title": "'Paved Paradise' examines how parking has changed the American landscape", "question_index": 18, "text": "But...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the shopping mall was the brainchild of a retail designer named Victor Gruen, and he was an immigrant from Vienna, Austria. And so he had come to the United States with these, you know, kind of vis"}
{"id": "1174962751", "date": "2023-05-09", "guest": "Henry Grabar", "title": "'Paved Paradise' examines how parking has changed the American landscape", "question_index": 19, "text": "Let's get to the part about mobsters, money laundering, tax evasion and theft. And I'm thinking here about garages. Why do garages lend themselves to financial crimes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But, of course, that never came to happen because the parking proved to be just too important. I think, you know, he didn't really think this through. But it turns out that if you put, you know, a hun"}
{"id": "1174962751", "date": "2023-05-09", "guest": "Henry Grabar", "title": "'Paved Paradise' examines how parking has changed the American landscape", "question_index": 20, "text": "What is one of your favorite parking garage scandals?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, for many years, parking was the largest all-cash business in the United States. And I think anytime you've got a lot of cash bouncing around, there is an opportunity for - you know, for cooking "}
{"id": "1174962751", "date": "2023-05-09", "guest": "Henry Grabar", "title": "'Paved Paradise' examines how parking has changed the American landscape", "question_index": 21, "text": "We talked a little bit about on-the-street parking and why it's so hard to find and how everybody goes crazy looking for a spot, especially in cities. I'm interested in hearing what you learned about how cities decide how much to pay per hour and what hours to have parking legal and how long you're allowed to stay there in a spot. Because, like, in Philly, at different times a day, you might be able to not park at all or park for two hours or park for three hours. And if three-hour parking is allowed and you have an app, you can keep extending the time. But also, if it's two-hour parking, when the two hours expires, you can extend that time, too, and turn it into three hours. You just have to re-up on your app. So what's the logic behind how cities make decisions about, you know, meters and pricing and hours?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, since you're in Philadelphia, we have to talk about the Philadelphia airport scandal. And one thing you should understand about airports is that parking revenue is often the largest single sourc"}
{"id": "1174962751", "date": "2023-05-09", "guest": "Henry Grabar", "title": "'Paved Paradise' examines how parking has changed the American landscape", "question_index": 22, "text": "Well, let's take another break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Henry Grabar, author of the new book \"Paved Paradise: How Parking Explains The World.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have often asked myself that very question. I think it's pretty inscrutable at times. I think it's extremely confusing when you arrive in a new city and all of a sudden you find yourself in front of"}
{"id": "1174962751", "date": "2023-05-09", "guest": "Henry Grabar", "title": "'Paved Paradise' examines how parking has changed the American landscape", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Henry Grabar, author of the new book \"Paved Paradise: How Parking Explains The World.\" It's about how parking codes, parking lots and garages have shaped the landscape of cities and suburbs and limited the creation of affordable housing. Some people are trying to reenvision what city streets might look like if there was less on-the-street parking, and that includes reenvisioning what curbsides would look like. What are some of those visions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have often asked myself that very question. I think it's pretty inscrutable at times. I think it's extremely confusing when you arrive in a new city and all of a sudden you find yourself in front of"}
{"id": "1174962751", "date": "2023-05-09", "guest": "Henry Grabar", "title": "'Paved Paradise' examines how parking has changed the American landscape", "question_index": 24, "text": "What do you think can happen there besides restaurants?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The one that comes first to mind, of course, is what we saw during the pandemic summer in 2020 when people were nervous about eating inside and all the restaurants opened up seating in their parking a"}
{"id": "1174962751", "date": "2023-05-09", "guest": "Henry Grabar", "title": "'Paved Paradise' examines how parking has changed the American landscape", "question_index": 25, "text": "I want to ask you about bike lanes, because I appreciate that there are bike lanes. And I appreciate that a lot of people are bicycling. It's good for the environment. It's good for, you know, parking and traffic. It's easier for the people who are bicycling to get to and from places because they don't need to buy a car, which is so expensive, and so on. At the same time, some bike lanes are just really poorly designed. And it's really unsafe for the bicyclist and often unsafe for the driver. And, I mean, for example, whether the bike lane is on the right or the left of the lane or lanes with the car, when you have to turn in the direction of the bike lane, it's really dangerous because, you know, typically, when you're driving, there's no traffic on the side that you're turning from, you know? You're in the lane where there's no moving cars to your right. But there might be bicyclists there now. Have you seen, like, a sensible kind of bike lane?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think one of the most urgent needs for cities is to plant more trees. I think that's a - that's something that will help them adapt to climate change, shade the streets, clean the air, and perhaps m"}
{"id": "1174962751", "date": "2023-05-09", "guest": "Henry Grabar", "title": "'Paved Paradise' examines how parking has changed the American landscape", "question_index": 26, "text": "You've raised the question, do people really want all this parking? Or is this just a function of, like, parking codes or old habits? So do you have an answer to that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm glad you mentioned that, Terry, because something happened a few days ago in Brooklyn that's been on my mind. A father of two was biking home from a grocery store in Brooklyn. And he was killed by"}
{"id": "1174962751", "date": "2023-05-09", "guest": "Henry Grabar", "title": "'Paved Paradise' examines how parking has changed the American landscape", "question_index": 27, "text": "Henry Grabar, thank you so much for joining us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've thought a lot about that question when I was writing this book. And I think it applies to the general American suburban pattern at large, right? Like, do Americans want ample parking and a two-ca"}
{"id": "1174962751", "date": "2023-05-09", "guest": "Henry Grabar", "title": "'Paved Paradise' examines how parking has changed the American landscape", "question_index": 28, "text": "Henry Grabar's new book is called \"Paved Paradise: How Parking Explains The World.\" He covers housing, transportation and urban policy for Slate. After we take a short break, TV critic David Bianculli will review Pete Davidson's new semi-autobiographical series, \"Bupkis.\" It co-stars Edie Falco as his mother and Joe Pesci as his grandfather. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "1175465857", "date": "2023-05-11", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Extremist groups were found guilty of seditious conspiracy for Jan. 6. Now what?", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Seditious conspiracy for plotting to keep Donald Trump in power after he lost the 2020 election by leading a violent mob in attacking the Capitol - that's what four members of the far-right extremist group the Proud Boys, including its leader, Enrique Tarrio, were convicted of last week. A fifth member was convicted on lesser charges. Six members of the far-right militia group the Oath Keepers, including its leader Stewart Rhodes, were convicted of similar sedition charges in earlier trials. What does that mean for ongoing investigations into January 6 and attempts to overturn the 2020 election? Might Donald Trump and/or members of his inner circle face similar charges? My guest, Alan Feuer, has been covering these stories for The New York Times. He's also covering special counsel Jack Smith's investigations into Trump and his allies. Feuer reports on extremism and political violence for The New York Times. We recorded our interview yesterday morning. Alan Feuer, welcome back to FRESH AIR. So tell us, on what grounds were the Proud Boys convicted of seditious conspiracy?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1175465857", "date": "2023-05-11", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Extremist groups were found guilty of seditious conspiracy for Jan. 6. Now what?", "question_index": 1, "text": "Tell us a couple of the most compelling pieces of evidence that were used to convict the members of the Proud Boys.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In short, they were found guilty of having used violent force to stop the lawful transfer of presidential power at the Capitol on January 6. And essentially, you know, seditious conspiracy is a charge"}
{"id": "1175465857", "date": "2023-05-11", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Extremist groups were found guilty of seditious conspiracy for Jan. 6. Now what?", "question_index": 2, "text": "The prosecutors said that leaders of the Proud Boys used the rioters at the Capitol as tools of the conspiracy. Has anyone ever used that argument before in a conspiracy case?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. So the government built its case effectively in two ways. One, during the investigation, the FBI seized from the phones of the five defendants in the case, and lots of other Proud Boys who came "}
{"id": "1175465857", "date": "2023-05-11", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Extremist groups were found guilty of seditious conspiracy for Jan. 6. Now what?", "question_index": 3, "text": "So how big a part do you think that the tools of the conspiracy argument played in the actual conviction?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, that was a kind of novel term of art. Normally, what you have in a criminal case are - if you're a defendant, you have co-defendants, right? And so in this case, there were, you know, five co-defe"}
{"id": "1175465857", "date": "2023-05-11", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Extremist groups were found guilty of seditious conspiracy for Jan. 6. Now what?", "question_index": 4, "text": "Is that the scene we've seen over and over on TV?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, look, we don't have perfect vision into what the jury's deliberations were, but I will say this. The video evidence about the tools, as they were called, was really, really compelling. And it's "}
{"id": "1175465857", "date": "2023-05-11", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Extremist groups were found guilty of seditious conspiracy for Jan. 6. Now what?", "question_index": 5, "text": "And people just start climbing through the window after that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That is the scene we've seen over and over on TV. The January 6 committee made a big deal of it. You know, Pezzola is the guy with the shaggy hair and the beard. And, you know, he's just sort of hamme"}
{"id": "1175465857", "date": "2023-05-11", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Extremist groups were found guilty of seditious conspiracy for Jan. 6. Now what?", "question_index": 6, "text": "Can you make a couple of comparisons to the seditious conspiracy trial of the Oath Keepers? And members of the Oath Keepers were convicted in that trial - in those trials. There were two trials, actually.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Busting through the window en masse, right? So yes, the tools of the conspiracy evidence was fundamental in the way the government made its case."}
{"id": "1175465857", "date": "2023-05-11", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Extremist groups were found guilty of seditious conspiracy for Jan. 6. Now what?", "question_index": 7, "text": "And are any of the men who were convicted serving time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct, there were two separate Oath Keeper trials involving seditious conspiracy. And I think, look; there's a couple of fundamental ways in which these trials, the Proud Boy trials and the Oath Kee"}
{"id": "1175465857", "date": "2023-05-11", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Extremist groups were found guilty of seditious conspiracy for Jan. 6. Now what?", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Alan Feuer. He reports on extremism and political violence for The New York Times. We'll be right back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So nobody has been sentenced yet, but they are still in custody awaiting sentencing. And so the first round of sentencing hearings will be at the end of May. Stewart Rhodes is facing sentencing on May"}
{"id": "1175465857", "date": "2023-05-11", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Extremist groups were found guilty of seditious conspiracy for Jan. 6. Now what?", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Alan Feuer. He reports on extremism and political violence for The New York Times. He's covered the seditious conspiracy trials of members of the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers that ended in convictions. And he's also been covering the special counsel Jack Smith's investigations into Trump's attempts to overturn the results of the 2020 election. As a result of the seditious conspiracy convictions, the Oath Keepers, the militia group, has disbanded. But the Proud Boys, in spite of the convictions, still exist. But the national leaders handed over leadership to local chapters. So practically, what does that mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So nobody has been sentenced yet, but they are still in custody awaiting sentencing. And so the first round of sentencing hearings will be at the end of May. Stewart Rhodes is facing sentencing on May"}
{"id": "1175465857", "date": "2023-05-11", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Extremist groups were found guilty of seditious conspiracy for Jan. 6. Now what?", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yeah, but a lot of action now is at the local level. And I think six current and former Proud Boys have seats on the Miami-Dade Republican Executive Committee. What does that say?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So like you said, the Oath Keepers are essentially defunct, you know? Rhodes is locked up, awaiting sentencing and will, by all accounts, go away for a long time. Their top lawyer is also facing charg"}
{"id": "1175465857", "date": "2023-05-11", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Extremist groups were found guilty of seditious conspiracy for Jan. 6. Now what?", "question_index": 11, "text": "What kind of precedents do you think are set by these seditious conspiracy convictions of leaders of the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers? I mean, it's very rare to get seditious conspiracy convictions.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So at the same time that the Proud Boys were dissolving their national leadership and were plugging in to these local hot-button issues, there was a concerted effort to have members of the group run f"}
{"id": "1175465857", "date": "2023-05-11", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Extremist groups were found guilty of seditious conspiracy for Jan. 6. Now what?", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Alan Feuer, and he reports on extremism and political violence for The New York Times. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is very rare to get them. You know, they are tried infrequently and they succeed infrequently. And, you know, this is a charge that goes back to the Civil War era. So it's got this kind of long, st"}
{"id": "1175465857", "date": "2023-05-11", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Extremist groups were found guilty of seditious conspiracy for Jan. 6. Now what?", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Alan Feuer, who reports on extremism and political violence for The New York Times. He covered the seditious conspiracy trials that ended in convictions of members of the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers. He's also covering special counsel Jack Smith's investigations into Donald Trump's attempts to overturn the results of the 2020 election. So, you know, if the government was saying Trump helped start this whole thing, he got the ball rolling by giving these, like, you know, stand back and stand by directions to the Proud Boys, then it does kind of put Trump as the leader of the conspiracy that the Proud Boys were convicted of. And also, in terms of conspiracy charges, the Oath Keepers were security guards for Roger Stone in the period surrounding January 6. And Stone was part of Trump's inner circle, plotting to overturn the election. And I think Flynn had connections with them, too, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is very rare to get them. You know, they are tried infrequently and they succeed infrequently. And, you know, this is a charge that goes back to the Civil War era. So it's got this kind of long, st"}
{"id": "1175465857", "date": "2023-05-11", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Extremist groups were found guilty of seditious conspiracy for Jan. 6. Now what?", "question_index": 14, "text": "And he did have members of his inner circle telling him, you lost. There's no evidence of sufficient fraud to overturn the election.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So there's no question there is a nexus of connections between the Oath Keepers, the Proud Boys, Roger Stone, Mike Flynn, and that Flynn and Stone have obvious connections to Trump, right? Those conne"}
{"id": "1175465857", "date": "2023-05-11", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Extremist groups were found guilty of seditious conspiracy for Jan. 6. Now what?", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Alan Feuer. He reports on extremism and political violence for The New York Times. We'll be right back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, he did. And look. The January 6 committee did a very thorough job in documenting all the ways in which Trump was informed that his lies, that the election had been marred by fraud, were lies and "}
{"id": "1175465857", "date": "2023-05-11", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Extremist groups were found guilty of seditious conspiracy for Jan. 6. Now what?", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Alan Feuer, who covers extremism and political violence for The New York Times. He's been reporting on the seditious conspiracy trials and the convictions of the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers. And he's covering special counsel Jack Smith's investigations into whether Trump attempted to overturn the results of the 2020 election. Well, let's talk about special counsel Jack Smith. He's investigating the classified documents found at Mar-A-Lago and if Trump intentionally hid them from the Justice Department. He's investigating Trump's fundraising after the election. What would be the crime? What is he - what exactly is Smith investigating about Trump's fundraising after the election?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, he did. And look. The January 6 committee did a very thorough job in documenting all the ways in which Trump was informed that his lies, that the election had been marred by fraud, were lies and "}
{"id": "1175465857", "date": "2023-05-11", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Extremist groups were found guilty of seditious conspiracy for Jan. 6. Now what?", "question_index": 17, "text": "So what else is under Jack Smith's umbrella right now in his investigation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the kind of central question about the fundraising, it's an issue of fraud. Did Donald Trump and the folks who were raising money with and for him use a story about election fraud to raise money fo"}
{"id": "1175465857", "date": "2023-05-11", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Extremist groups were found guilty of seditious conspiracy for Jan. 6. Now what?", "question_index": 18, "text": "So is special prosecutor Jack Smith looking into the plans to put together alternate slate of electors from swing states that Biden actually won or to block or delay Congress' certification of the Electoral College? Is he looking into that? Because, you know, Trump's inner circle and perhaps Trump himself were involved with that plan. I mean, I think Trump - you know, one of Trump's lawyers, John Eastman, was at the core of that plan.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the one other inquiry that we haven't yet discussed is the issue of Trump's handling of classified material that he took with him from the White House after leaving office. The most dramatic event "}
{"id": "1175465857", "date": "2023-05-11", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Extremist groups were found guilty of seditious conspiracy for Jan. 6. Now what?", "question_index": 19, "text": "How is what Jack Smith looking into comparing to the investigation and the charges that the House Select Committee investigating January 6 recommended?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, look, we know a lot about what happened because of the work of the January 6 committee. And the committee has shown that lawyers around Trump - like John Eastman, like Rudy Giuliani, lik"}
{"id": "1175465857", "date": "2023-05-11", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Extremist groups were found guilty of seditious conspiracy for Jan. 6. Now what?", "question_index": 20, "text": "Jack Smith is investigating several different categories of actions that Trump allegedly took. So I'm not sure. Like, would each of those result in separate trials, if they end up in trial? Is there only one grand jury, or is there a separate grand jury for each of those tracks that Jack Smith is investigating?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I think, as best we can tell, there is a relatively close coherence between what the committee recommended and what the special counsel is looking at. The committee recommended a few charges agains"}
{"id": "1175465857", "date": "2023-05-11", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Extremist groups were found guilty of seditious conspiracy for Jan. 6. Now what?", "question_index": 21, "text": "Do you think that's likely to happen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So to answer your second question first, the best we can tell, given the secrecy that surrounds grand juries, is that there are two grand juries - at least two, we should say. One is primarily concern"}
{"id": "1175465857", "date": "2023-05-11", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Extremist groups were found guilty of seditious conspiracy for Jan. 6. Now what?", "question_index": 22, "text": "Is there anything in the works that might prevent Trump's legal ability to continue running for reelection?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm not in the business of predicting that stuff. I'm just saying that I've been doing criminal investigations, covering them for over 20 years, and that is within the realm of the possible."}
{"id": "1175465857", "date": "2023-05-11", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Extremist groups were found guilty of seditious conspiracy for Jan. 6. Now what?", "question_index": 23, "text": "Who decides whether there will be charges - like, criminal charges against Trump resulting from the Jack Smith investigation? Is it Smith who decides or Attorney General Merrick Garland?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There have been discussions about using the 14th Amendment to prevent people like Trump from running for office. There's a section of the 14th Amendment that essentially disqualifies candidates from r"}
{"id": "1175465857", "date": "2023-05-11", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Extremist groups were found guilty of seditious conspiracy for Jan. 6. Now what?", "question_index": 24, "text": "All right. Time for another break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Alan Feuer, and he reports on extremism and political violence for The New York Times. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's ultimately the attorney general's decision. So Smith will write a report. He will make recommendations. That's his job as special counsel. But the decision will ultimately be made by Merrick Garl"}
{"id": "1175465857", "date": "2023-05-11", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Extremist groups were found guilty of seditious conspiracy for Jan. 6. Now what?", "question_index": 25, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Alan Feuer, who reports on extremism and political violence for The New York Times. He covered the seditious conspiracy trials that ended in convictions of leaders of the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers, and he's been covering special counsel Jack Smith's investigations into whether Trump attempted to overturn the election. Getting back to the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers, whose leaders were found guilty of seditious conspiracy, just because the Oath Keepers no longer exist and the leadership of the Proud Boys has given power over to the local chapters, that doesn't mean that racism, antisemitism, anti-LGBTQ protests and violence have been quieted. What is some of the evidence that it's actually escalating? And you might want to mention the two incidents from last weekend.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's ultimately the attorney general's decision. So Smith will write a report. He will make recommendations. That's his job as special counsel. But the decision will ultimately be made by Merrick Garl"}
{"id": "1175465857", "date": "2023-05-11", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Extremist groups were found guilty of seditious conspiracy for Jan. 6. Now what?", "question_index": 26, "text": "Which makes it harder for federal authorities to investigate, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, sure. To begin with that, you know, what we had just, you know, within days was a young guy in Allen, Texas, shot up a bunch of people at an outlet mall. And it was later revealed through his so"}
{"id": "1175465857", "date": "2023-05-11", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Extremist groups were found guilty of seditious conspiracy for Jan. 6. Now what?", "question_index": 27, "text": "So I might have asked you this before, but what's it like for you to have a front row seat to American hatred? Your beat is extremism and political violence. You've been writing about plenty of it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, look, at the end of the day, when you talk to experts who really delve into this stuff, you hear something similar, which is there isn't really a law-and-order solution to the problem that we are "}
{"id": "1175465857", "date": "2023-05-11", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Extremist groups were found guilty of seditious conspiracy for Jan. 6. Now what?", "question_index": 28, "text": "Alan Feuer, a pleasure to talk with you again. Thank you so much, and thank you for your reporting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's tiring. You know, I'm not going to lie. You know, it's nice that I live way out in the boonies and raise ducks and, you know, when I wake up in the morning, I can have a few minutes of real disco"}
{"id": "1175465857", "date": "2023-05-11", "guest": "Alan Feuer", "title": "Extremist groups were found guilty of seditious conspiracy for Jan. 6. Now what?", "question_index": 29, "text": "Alan Feuer covers extremism and political violence for The New York Times. If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, like this week's interviews about how parking has changed the American landscape and created endless frustrations, or about the cognitive and mental health impacts of long COVID, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. And to find out what's happening on the air and behind the scenes on our show, subscribe to our free newsletter. You'll find a link on our subscription page, whyy.org/freshair. By the way, today marks the 36th anniversary of FRESH AIR as a daily national program. We're grateful to everyone who's been listening for any part of that time. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Ann Marie Baldonado, Therese Madden, Seth Kelley, and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "1175738236", "date": "2023-05-12", "guest": "Everything But The Girl", "title": "Everything but the Girl's Tracey Thorn writes lyrics that capture women's inner lives", "question_index": 0, "text": "Now, you wrote that when you became a mother, you felt that you couldn't be the person you were on stage and the mother you were at home, that somehow those two sides of you seemed incompatible. What were those two different versions of you, and why did they seem incompatible?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ken Tucker reviewed the new album \"Fuse\" by the duo Everything but the Girl, their first album in 24 years. We're going to listen now to Terry's interview with Tracey Thorn, who's one half of the band"}
{"id": "1175738236", "date": "2023-05-12", "guest": "Everything But The Girl", "title": "Everything but the Girl's Tracey Thorn writes lyrics that capture women's inner lives", "question_index": 1, "text": "Does being on stage require being narcissistic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, you know, I see other women who are perfectly capable of doing that. So, again, I'd stress when I wrote this, I don't want to make this into a sort of general point. But I found it reall"}
{"id": "1175738236", "date": "2023-05-12", "guest": "Everything But The Girl", "title": "Everything but the Girl's Tracey Thorn writes lyrics that capture women's inner lives", "question_index": 2, "text": "So you've also dealt with stage fright, and I was wondering if it was a fear when you were on the stage or just a dread of being on stage, like a pre-performance dread.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it requires that sort of projection, that complete absorption in what you're doing at that moment. I do think there's a degree of narcissism about that, yeah. There's a look-at-me element to it,"}
{"id": "1175738236", "date": "2023-05-12", "guest": "Everything But The Girl", "title": "Everything but the Girl's Tracey Thorn writes lyrics that capture women's inner lives", "question_index": 3, "text": "What about being in the studio?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, my stage fright happens much more pre the event. I often used to find that at the moment of actually walking out on stage, a sort of calm would descend on me. And especially when I was very warm"}
{"id": "1175738236", "date": "2023-05-12", "guest": "Everything But The Girl", "title": "Everything but the Girl's Tracey Thorn writes lyrics that capture women's inner lives", "question_index": 4, "text": "So I want to play another track from your new album \"Record.\" And this is the song \"Babies.\" And I think it's the first song I know that's about using birth control and the fear of getting pregnant when you don't want to have a baby, and then the urgency of having a baby when you do want to have one. How did you come up with that idea as the premise for a song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "See, there, I don't suffer any anxiety at all, which is why I've gone back to recording. You know, I find that just such a liberating kind of space, that feeling that you can try anything, and then yo"}
{"id": "1175738236", "date": "2023-05-12", "guest": "Everything But The Girl", "title": "Everything but the Girl's Tracey Thorn writes lyrics that capture women's inner lives", "question_index": 5, "text": "And babies, babies...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was on a walk one day, and the opening lines of the song just appeared in my head with that tune. Every morning of the month, you push a little tablet through the foil. Cleverest of all inventions, "}
{"id": "1175738236", "date": "2023-05-12", "guest": "Everything But The Girl", "title": "Everything but the Girl's Tracey Thorn writes lyrics that capture women's inner lives", "question_index": 6, "text": "OK. So let's hear \"Babies.\" And this is from Tracey Thorn's new album \"Record.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And babies, babies, babies."}
{"id": "1175738236", "date": "2023-05-12", "guest": "Everything But The Girl", "title": "Everything but the Girl's Tracey Thorn writes lyrics that capture women's inner lives", "question_index": 7, "text": "That's Tracey Thorn from her new album \"Record.\" The song is called \"Babies.\" So, you know, part of this song is about the anxiety that can surround sex when you're a woman worried about getting pregnant, then having to take hormones or putting foreign objects in your body to prevent pregnancy. I think men don't always comprehend what that means.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Every morning of the month, you push a little tablet through the foil. Cleverest of all inventions. Better than a condom or a coil. 'Cause I didn't want my babies until I wanted babies. And "}
{"id": "1175738236", "date": "2023-05-12", "guest": "Everything But The Girl", "title": "Everything but the Girl's Tracey Thorn writes lyrics that capture women's inner lives", "question_index": 8, "text": "So I want to play another song from \"Record.\" And this song is called \"Guitar,\" and it's a song about having a crush on a boy and thinking he was really cool because he played guitar, but he was cruel, you say in the song, and that you realize at some point that he was just the catalyst because you had your guitar. You had a guitar, and you could sing and you could play. And it reminds me of something Joyce Johnson once wrote. Jack Kerouac had been her boyfriend, and in a memoir about that period of her life, she wrote that guys had adventures and girls like her fell in love with the guys who had the adventures. And the girl's adventure was falling in love with the guy who had the adventure, as opposed to the girls having an adventure of their own. Being in love with a guy was the adventure.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're listening to the interview Terry recorded with singer Tracey Thorn in 2018. Thorn is half the duo Everything but the Girl with her husband Ben Watt. They've just released thei"}
{"id": "1175738236", "date": "2023-05-12", "guest": "Everything But The Girl", "title": "Everything but the Girl's Tracey Thorn writes lyrics that capture women's inner lives", "question_index": 9, "text": "This song made me think about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1175738236", "date": "2023-05-12", "guest": "Everything But The Girl", "title": "Everything but the Girl's Tracey Thorn writes lyrics that capture women's inner lives", "question_index": 10, "text": "Oh, really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I remember reading that book."}
{"id": "1175738236", "date": "2023-05-12", "guest": "Everything But The Girl", "title": "Everything but the Girl's Tracey Thorn writes lyrics that capture women's inner lives", "question_index": 11, "text": "\"Minor Characters,\" yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Minor Characters.\""}
{"id": "1175738236", "date": "2023-05-12", "guest": "Everything But The Girl", "title": "Everything but the Girl's Tracey Thorn writes lyrics that capture women's inner lives", "question_index": 12, "text": "Did you love that book?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1175738236", "date": "2023-05-12", "guest": "Everything But The Girl", "title": "Everything but the Girl's Tracey Thorn writes lyrics that capture women's inner lives", "question_index": 13, "text": "Oh, well, I really like this song. So let's hear \"Guitar,\" written and performed by my guest Tracey Thorn from her new album, \"Record.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I loved it. And it rang lots of bells with me. Yeah. You know, I've resented that idea for a very long time. The notion that, you know, the biggest adventure you're going to have is falling in love wi"}
{"id": "1175738236", "date": "2023-05-12", "guest": "Everything But The Girl", "title": "Everything but the Girl's Tracey Thorn writes lyrics that capture women's inner lives", "question_index": 14, "text": "That's Tracey Thorn from her new album, \"Record.\" So you have described that once you started playing in a band with boys, you felt like you'd gotten this secret access to this kind of boy gang.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Hey, boy, you taught me my first song. The air was warm. The night was long. While Leonard Cohen sang \"Suzanne,\" we kissed and kissed, but then you ran. The song was \"Teenager In Love.\" Oh, "}
{"id": "1175738236", "date": "2023-05-12", "guest": "Everything But The Girl", "title": "Everything but the Girl's Tracey Thorn writes lyrics that capture women's inner lives", "question_index": 15, "text": "But then you formed a group with other girls.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Hey, boy, you taught me my first song. The air was warm. The night was long. While Leonard Cohen sang \"Suzanne,\" we kissed and kissed, but then you ran. The song was \"Teenager In Love.\" Oh, "}
{"id": "1175738236", "date": "2023-05-12", "guest": "Everything But The Girl", "title": "Everything but the Girl's Tracey Thorn writes lyrics that capture women's inner lives", "question_index": 16, "text": "How was it different?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1175738236", "date": "2023-05-12", "guest": "Everything But The Girl", "title": "Everything but the Girl's Tracey Thorn writes lyrics that capture women's inner lives", "question_index": 17, "text": "So after being in a band with guys and then forming a band with other girls, you ended up going to college. And at college, you soon fell in love with Ben Watt, who became your music partner and your life partner, and you've had children together. You've been together since what year?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies. Let's get back to Terry's interview with British singer, songwriter and guitarist Tracey Thorn. For 17 years, beginning in 1980, she was half of the duo Everything "}
{"id": "1175738236", "date": "2023-05-12", "guest": "Everything But The Girl", "title": "Everything but the Girl's Tracey Thorn writes lyrics that capture women's inner lives", "question_index": 18, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "1981."}
{"id": "1175738236", "date": "2023-05-12", "guest": "Everything But The Girl", "title": "Everything but the Girl's Tracey Thorn writes lyrics that capture women's inner lives", "question_index": 19, "text": "And so you - together, you formed the band Everything but the Girl. And you write that this was the time when you discovered feminism, and it made you question, was it the right decision to be in a band with your boyfriend? Was it even cool to have a boyfriend? Was monogamy inevitably awful and oppressive? And should you really try to be a lesbian?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1175738236", "date": "2023-05-12", "guest": "Everything But The Girl", "title": "Everything but the Girl's Tracey Thorn writes lyrics that capture women's inner lives", "question_index": 20, "text": "So some of the questions you were asking yourself at the time - how did you work through those questions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1175738236", "date": "2023-05-12", "guest": "Everything But The Girl", "title": "Everything but the Girl's Tracey Thorn writes lyrics that capture women's inner lives", "question_index": 21, "text": "So some of the questions you asked yourself about having your boyfriend, now husband, be in the same band with you was, would the relationship take precedence over work? What if you had a fight? What if they stopped being - what if you stopped being a couple? Would there still be a band? Did you have to confront any of those questions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In the way you do when you're young, which is you just kind of live your life, and, you know, the questions sort of answer themselves on a day-to-day basis. You know, I think if I was going to be givi"}
{"id": "1175738236", "date": "2023-05-12", "guest": "Everything But The Girl", "title": "Everything but the Girl's Tracey Thorn writes lyrics that capture women's inner lives", "question_index": 22, "text": "One of the things that you did have to confront when you were with Ben in Everything but the Girl is that he got this rare autoimmune disease whose name I can't pronounce.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not seriously. But I do think one of the reasons that - when we stopped in 2000, one of the reasons we haven't gone back to it is because I think we both have looked at each other and said, do you kno"}
{"id": "1175738236", "date": "2023-05-12", "guest": "Everything But The Girl", "title": "Everything but the Girl's Tracey Thorn writes lyrics that capture women's inner lives", "question_index": 23, "text": "Thank you. And it apparently causes vascular inflammation, and a lot of his small intestine had to be removed. You weren't sure he would survive. I mean, he was literally deathly ill. What kind of scenarios did you play in your mind when his life was in jeopardy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, Churg-Strauss syndrome."}
{"id": "1175738236", "date": "2023-05-12", "guest": "Everything But The Girl", "title": "Everything but the Girl's Tracey Thorn writes lyrics that capture women's inner lives", "question_index": 24, "text": "How do you think that experience changed your relationship?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, the moments when his life was in jeopardy - again, it's that sense of - you're just completely wrapped up in the moment. I don't think during those - and it was weeks in hospital when, you k"}
{"id": "1175738236", "date": "2023-05-12", "guest": "Everything But The Girl", "title": "Everything but the Girl's Tracey Thorn writes lyrics that capture women's inner lives", "question_index": 25, "text": "Is \"Amplified Heart\" the album that you made after he recovered?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's very hard to say, I suppose, because I find it hard to imagine our relationship without that thing having happened. I can almost think of a before and after. You know, there were the people we we"}
{"id": "1175738236", "date": "2023-05-12", "guest": "Everything But The Girl", "title": "Everything but the Girl's Tracey Thorn writes lyrics that capture women's inner lives", "question_index": 26, "text": "Yeah. Well, I want to play one of those songs. This is \"We Walk The Same Line,\" which, I think, really is a song pledging to always be there for him or pledging always to be there for each other. If you lose your faith, you can have mine. Do you want to say anything about the song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is. And I think that's the one that's got the songs on it that are, you know, most obviously about people dealing with that kind of stuff. I think you can tell the people who wrote that record, you"}
{"id": "1175738236", "date": "2023-05-12", "guest": "Everything But The Girl", "title": "Everything but the Girl's Tracey Thorn writes lyrics that capture women's inner lives", "question_index": 27, "text": "So let's hear \"We Walk The Same Line\" from the Everything but the Girl album \"Amplified Heart.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, it is, I think, about that bond we had afterwards, you know? So you asked how things changed, and, you know, it was a mixture of, in some ways, feeling separate from each other because w"}
{"id": "1175738236", "date": "2023-05-12", "guest": "Everything But The Girl", "title": "Everything but the Girl's Tracey Thorn writes lyrics that capture women's inner lives", "question_index": 28, "text": "So I love your deep voice. And you've said that you didn't initially think of yourself as a singer, but when you did start singing, that you wanted to sing like Patti Smith or Siouxsie Sioux from Siouxsie and the Banshees. But you started singing that way on stage and then just kind of lost your voice. So what did you do instead?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're listening to the interview Terry recorded with singer Tracey Thorn in 2018. She'd just released her solo album titled \"Record.\" Thorn is half the duo Everything but the Girl w"}
{"id": "1175738236", "date": "2023-05-12", "guest": "Everything But The Girl", "title": "Everything but the Girl's Tracey Thorn writes lyrics that capture women's inner lives", "question_index": 29, "text": "You know, you've written that your voice got deeper because of menopause, and I think it's great that you wrote about that 'cause I think a lot of women are uncomfortable acknowledging the existence of menopause. It's personal, and it's also a sign of age.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think for a while, then, I had to try and work out a way of coming up with a voice that was my own, that I could have some control over. That took me quite a while. I think for a long time, I was a "}
{"id": "1175738236", "date": "2023-05-12", "guest": "Everything But The Girl", "title": "Everything but the Girl's Tracey Thorn writes lyrics that capture women's inner lives", "question_index": 30, "text": "And sexiness.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. No, I think that's right, and especially in music, obviously, which, you know, there's still a lot of pressure to, you know, maintain an image of youthfulness. So as soon as you bring the word me"}
{"id": "1175738236", "date": "2023-05-12", "guest": "Everything But The Girl", "title": "Everything but the Girl's Tracey Thorn writes lyrics that capture women's inner lives", "question_index": 31, "text": "You wrote a column in the New Statesman about your reaction to younger feminists and how, at first, you were troubled about how the generation who came after you in the 1990s, you found them discombobulating and that, you know, in your feminist literature class, when you were young, you'd all thrown the \"Story Of O\" across the room. But this new third wave of feminists seemed to be OK with strip clubs and porn. Describe what was disturbing you at the time when you were thinking that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And sexiness. And so as soon as you bring the word menopausal into the room, I think a lot of younger men especially might run screaming. And so that's a risk I'm prepared to take."}
{"id": "1175738236", "date": "2023-05-12", "guest": "Everything But The Girl", "title": "Everything but the Girl's Tracey Thorn writes lyrics that capture women's inner lives", "question_index": 32, "text": "So I want to play another song from your new album. This is called \"Smoke.\" It's a kind of political song. It's a song about your love of England, about your parents and grandparents growing up in England. And you say, London, you're in my blood, but I feel you going wrong. So is this a song about Brexit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So that was in the '90s. So I was sort of getting into my 30s at that stage, and I was very aware that there was a younger generation. There was also - I don't know whether this was true in America, b"}
{"id": "1175738236", "date": "2023-05-12", "guest": "Everything But The Girl", "title": "Everything but the Girl's Tracey Thorn writes lyrics that capture women's inner lives", "question_index": 33, "text": "In the song, you talk a little bit about your mother experiencing the Blitz in London during World War II and how a friend of a friend was blown to bits. Did you grow up with a lot of war stories?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Maybe partly, but it's also just what's happening to lots of cities. You know, the same thing is happening to London as is happening to New York - you know, that hollowing out of a city. I talk in the"}
{"id": "1175738236", "date": "2023-05-12", "guest": "Everything But The Girl", "title": "Everything but the Girl's Tracey Thorn writes lyrics that capture women's inner lives", "question_index": 34, "text": "Right. Well, let's hear the song \"Smoke\" from Tracey Thorn's new album \"Record.\" Tracey Thorn, it's been such a pleasure to have you on the show. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did, but in the way that I was never really made to take them that seriously. I don't know whether it was a generational thing or a thing about being British, but both my parents had been in London "}
{"id": "1176662608", "date": "2023-05-17", "guest": "Matthew Dallek", "title": "A historian details how a secretive, extremist group radicalized the American right", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today's political extremism has roots in the past. The organization that did more than any other conservative group to propel today's extremist takeover of the American right is the John Birch Society. That's according to the new book \"Birchers: How The John Birch Society Radicalized The American Right.\" My guest is the author, historian Matthew Dallek. The society was known for its opposition to the civil rights movement, its antisemitism, its willingness to harass and intimidate its political enemies and for spreading conspiracy theories. Communist plots were alleged to be behind many things the Birchers opposed, from the U.N., to teaching sex education in schools and putting fluoride in the water supply. The group was founded in secret in 1958 by the wealthy, retired candy manufacturer Robert Welch, whose candies included Sugar Babies, Junior Mints and Pom Poms. The people Welch first invited to join the society were also wealthy, white businessmen, including the Koch brothers' father Fred Koch. Another decisive period for the American right is the subject of an earlier Dallek book called \"The Right Moment: Ronald Reagan's First Victory And The Decisive Turning Point In American Politics.\" Dallek is a professor of political management at George Washington University. His new book is dedicated to presidential historian Robert Dallek, who Matthew Dallek describes as a great historian but an even better father. Matthew Dallek, welcome to FRESH AIR. Give us a brief description of the John Birch Society.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1176662608", "date": "2023-05-17", "guest": "Matthew Dallek", "title": "A historian details how a secretive, extremist group radicalized the American right", "question_index": 1, "text": "Sixty thousand to a hundred thousand people doesn't sound like very much, so they were much more influential than their numbers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me. The John Birch Society was a group devoted to fighting anti-communism that they said was inside the United States. It, at its peak, had about sixty to a hundred thousa"}
{"id": "1176662608", "date": "2023-05-17", "guest": "Matthew Dallek", "title": "A historian details how a secretive, extremist group radicalized the American right", "question_index": 2, "text": "My understanding from reading your book is that the John Birch Society combined right-wing politics with culture wars.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, one of the points of the book is that, time and again, the activism, the money, the energy can be much greater, politically and culturally - much more powerful than the votes of millions o"}
{"id": "1176662608", "date": "2023-05-17", "guest": "Matthew Dallek", "title": "A historian details how a secretive, extremist group radicalized the American right", "question_index": 3, "text": "Women maybe played a large role in the John Birch Society. These were not exactly feminists. Phyllis Schlafly, who was, like, the leader of the anti-Equal Rights Amendment movement, she had been a Bircher.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. So I argue that the Birchers helped forge an alternative political tradition on the far right and that the core ideas were an anti-establishment, apocalyptic, more violent mode of politics, consp"}
{"id": "1176662608", "date": "2023-05-17", "guest": "Matthew Dallek", "title": "A historian details how a secretive, extremist group radicalized the American right", "question_index": 4, "text": "So the John Birch Society was founded by wealthy, white business leaders who were, you know, very successful. They owned or ran the companies that they represented. What was the business agenda of the group?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, the fascinating thing is that in the 1960s, Birch women, in some respects, capitalized on changes in the culture. It becomes more acceptable, of course, for women to go outside of the home"}
{"id": "1176662608", "date": "2023-05-17", "guest": "Matthew Dallek", "title": "A historian details how a secretive, extremist group radicalized the American right", "question_index": 5, "text": "You draw a lot of parallels between the John Birch Society and the far right today. One of the things they had in common is conspiracy theories. So give us a couple of examples of outlandish conspiracy theories that they successfully spread.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's an interesting question. They did not have an explicit business agenda, although about half of the founders came out of the National Association of Manufacturers, and they came out of this "}
{"id": "1176662608", "date": "2023-05-17", "guest": "Matthew Dallek", "title": "A historian details how a secretive, extremist group radicalized the American right", "question_index": 6, "text": "And, of course, the Birchers opposed civil rights on many levels. Like, their most hated decision was - Supreme Court decision was Brown v. Board of Education, which mandated desegregation of schools. They opposed busing. They opposed the whole civil rights movement. I mean, is it fair to just say they were racist?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one of the most outlandish, although I don't know how successful it was, was Robert Welch alleging that someone had placed a radium tube inside the Senate seat - the upholstery - of Senator Robe"}
{"id": "1176662608", "date": "2023-05-17", "guest": "Matthew Dallek", "title": "A historian details how a secretive, extremist group radicalized the American right", "question_index": 7, "text": "Another conspiracy theory I want to mention is fluoride in the water. When I was growing up, I used to hear about this and not really understand, what is that about? Why is fluoride controversial? Why do some people consider it a threat? Of course, fluoride was put in the water to prevent cavities, particularly in children. So how did that become the subject of a conspiracy theory?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so this was actually a huge debate in the 1960s. And it's, I think, an ongoing debate about the far right. The Birch Society denied emphatically that they were racist, and they denied emphatical"}
{"id": "1176662608", "date": "2023-05-17", "guest": "Matthew Dallek", "title": "A historian details how a secretive, extremist group radicalized the American right", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's such a good question. It's very hard sometimes to tease out the origins, right? Where does a theory sort of make it into the bloodstream of, in this case, the far right and the John Birch S"}
{"id": "1176662608", "date": "2023-05-17", "guest": "Matthew Dallek", "title": "A historian details how a secretive, extremist group radicalized the American right", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well, Welch especially. He was very effective salesperson.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They are selling - they're selling a product. And they're very effective salespeople. And so..."}
{"id": "1176662608", "date": "2023-05-17", "guest": "Matthew Dallek", "title": "A historian details how a secretive, extremist group radicalized the American right", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Matthew Dallek, author of the new book \"Birchers: How The John Birch Society Radicalized The American Right.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was - look, it's no accident that a salesperson headed this organization because he understood how to market a product. He understood how to pitch it. He understood how to defend it - right? - and "}
{"id": "1176662608", "date": "2023-05-17", "guest": "Matthew Dallek", "title": "A historian details how a secretive, extremist group radicalized the American right", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with historian Matthew Dallek, author of the new book \"Birchers: How The John Birch Society Radicalized The American Right.\" He describes the Birch Society as the organization that did more than any other conservative group to propel today's extremist takeover of the American right. The Birch Society was active between the late '50s and early '70s. So the John Birch Society was founded in 1958 by Robert Welch, a retired and very wealthy candy manufacturer. His company made Sugar Babies, Junior Mints, Pom Poms. He came from a family of Baptist preachers and farmers. He was home-schooled. What was his core mission when he started?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was - look, it's no accident that a salesperson headed this organization because he understood how to market a product. He understood how to pitch it. He understood how to defend it - right? - and "}
{"id": "1176662608", "date": "2023-05-17", "guest": "Matthew Dallek", "title": "A historian details how a secretive, extremist group radicalized the American right", "question_index": 12, "text": "Welch organized the John Birch Society in secret, and he invited several wealthy white men to be founding members. And he told them, this is totally off the record. It's totally in secret. You can't tell anybody. Why did he want to surround the founding in secrecy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To fight what he saw as the conspiracy, the communist conspiracy inside America. To Welch and to many of his fellow founders - they looked around them, and they estimated that communists dominated 60,"}
{"id": "1176662608", "date": "2023-05-17", "guest": "Matthew Dallek", "title": "A historian details how a secretive, extremist group radicalized the American right", "question_index": 13, "text": "What's an example of a front group that they set up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he said - actually, at one point he told them not to coordinate their hotels and to - if anyone asked, to just say they were there on business. So it was very hush-hush. Look, he saw communists "}
{"id": "1176662608", "date": "2023-05-17", "guest": "Matthew Dallek", "title": "A historian details how a secretive, extremist group radicalized the American right", "question_index": 14, "text": "I grew up in Brooklyn. In my neighborhood, there weren't many lawns. So - because I know there were a lot of, like, lawn signs too - impeach Earl Warren. But when we would drive through the country in New York, I'd see a lot - when I was a child, I'd see a lot of those impeach Earl Warren signs. And of course, as a child I had no idea - like, what is that about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Impeach Earl Warren was one of their most successful. The chief justice of the Supreme Court - they saw him as not only the architect of the Brown v. Board of Education desegregation decision, but as "}
{"id": "1176662608", "date": "2023-05-17", "guest": "Matthew Dallek", "title": "A historian details how a secretive, extremist group radicalized the American right", "question_index": 15, "text": "Of course, they failed in impeaching him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, well..."}
{"id": "1176662608", "date": "2023-05-17", "guest": "Matthew Dallek", "title": "A historian details how a secretive, extremist group radicalized the American right", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Matthew Dallek, author of the new book \"Birchers: How The John Birch Society Radicalized The American Right.\" We're going to take a short break, then we'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, well, they - you know, Welch understood that they were not going to impeach him. But again, as he said time and again, whether the front group was support your local police or committee against "}
{"id": "1176662608", "date": "2023-05-17", "guest": "Matthew Dallek", "title": "A historian details how a secretive, extremist group radicalized the American right", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with historian Matthew Dallek, author of the new book \"Birchers: How The John Birch Society Radicalized The American Right.\" He describes the Birch Society as the organization that did more than any other conservative group to propel today's extremist takeover of the American right. The Birchers trafficked in conspiracy theories, opposed the civil rights movement, were antisemitic, opposed the U.N., and tried to impeach Supreme Court Chief Justice Earl Warren. The group was founded in 1958 by Robert Welch, a wealthy, retired candy manufacturer. The original members were white, wealthy businessmen, including Fred Koch, the father of the Koch brothers, who funded right-wing groups and causes during our time. The John Birch Society was active from the late '50s through the early '70s. The Birch Society wanted to make inroads into politics, I think, with an emphasis, at least early on, on local and state politics. How far did they get?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, well, they - you know, Welch understood that they were not going to impeach him. But again, as he said time and again, whether the front group was support your local police or committee against "}
{"id": "1176662608", "date": "2023-05-17", "guest": "Matthew Dallek", "title": "A historian details how a secretive, extremist group radicalized the American right", "question_index": 18, "text": "The Birchers used hate and harassment to intimidate its political opponents. And I'd like you to describe some of their tactics.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They didn't get that far, although they did have a number of wins. They were able to win some local races for school boards. Welch - Robert Welch, the founder - had advised people to take over the loc"}
{"id": "1176662608", "date": "2023-05-17", "guest": "Matthew Dallek", "title": "A historian details how a secretive, extremist group radicalized the American right", "question_index": 19, "text": "A really interesting chapter of your book is about how the John Birch Society was infiltrated by the Anti-Defamation League because of so much antisemitism within the Birch Society. It was a spy operation known as the Birch Watchers. Why did they see the Birch Society as a threat worthy of being infiltrated?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I'll give one example. Patricia Hitt, who - I actually open the book with her. She was an aide to Richard Nixon and a very prominent supporter of Nixon. And she was on a Republican county commit"}
{"id": "1176662608", "date": "2023-05-17", "guest": "Matthew Dallek", "title": "A historian details how a secretive, extremist group radicalized the American right", "question_index": 20, "text": "So what did the Anti-Defamation League do to infiltrate the Birchers? Did they send out representatives who pretended to be interested in joining the society, interested in becoming active in it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, they did sometimes call it the Birch Watchers or the counterreaction. The Birch Society, to them, harked back to authoritarian movements both in Nazi Germany but also McCarthyism. And to a"}
{"id": "1176662608", "date": "2023-05-17", "guest": "Matthew Dallek", "title": "A historian details how a secretive, extremist group radicalized the American right", "question_index": 21, "text": "It's surprising that the FBI and its leader, J. Edgar Hoover, worked in part with the Anti-Defamation League to infiltrate the John Birch Society. It's surprising because, I mean, Hoover himself was so conservative and reactionary.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think all of the above. The agents had - there were agents. They had codenames - Bos No. 2, Bos No. 4, short for Boston. I don't know their real names. Some of them - one of them pretended to "}
{"id": "1176662608", "date": "2023-05-17", "guest": "Matthew Dallek", "title": "A historian details how a secretive, extremist group radicalized the American right", "question_index": 22, "text": "Some of the ADL agents posed as disgruntled Birchers in order to infiltrate white supremacist groups and assess their ties to the Birch Society. So tell us some of the things that are revealed in the ADL documents about this operation that you got access to. Tell us about some of the more amazing things that you learned about the Birchers and about white supremacist groups.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, well, it is surprising. I think, though, Hoover - Hoover was not a fan of Robert Welch, and he was not a fan of Welch's conspiracy theory that Eisenhower was a communist. So Hoover thought that "}
{"id": "1176662608", "date": "2023-05-17", "guest": "Matthew Dallek", "title": "A historian details how a secretive, extremist group radicalized the American right", "question_index": 23, "text": "The ADL fed some of their findings to the press. Why did they do that, and how effective was it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there's a lot of stuff. The ADL found out that the Birchers were going to a gun store and purchasing large caches of weapons. One of them was very troubled by it. There were instances of Birch m"}
{"id": "1176662608", "date": "2023-05-17", "guest": "Matthew Dallek", "title": "A historian details how a secretive, extremist group radicalized the American right", "question_index": 24, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is historian Matthew Dallek, author of the new book \"Birchers: How The John Birch Society Radicalized The American Right.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the ADL was very sophisticated and I think very effective in how it sort of branded the Birch Society as anti-democratic and bigoted. And they produced - the ADL produced its own books and pamph"}
{"id": "1176662608", "date": "2023-05-17", "guest": "Matthew Dallek", "title": "A historian details how a secretive, extremist group radicalized the American right", "question_index": 25, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with historian Matthew Dallek, author of the new book \"Birchers: How The John Birch Society Radicalized The American Right.\" The John Birch Society originally was organized into chapters of no more than 20 people. What was the logic behind that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the ADL was very sophisticated and I think very effective in how it sort of branded the Birch Society as anti-democratic and bigoted. And they produced - the ADL produced its own books and pamph"}
{"id": "1176662608", "date": "2023-05-17", "guest": "Matthew Dallek", "title": "A historian details how a secretive, extremist group radicalized the American right", "question_index": 26, "text": "And they were an anti-communist group. So that's interesting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, part of the logic was that they were modeled after communist cells. And..."}
{"id": "1176662608", "date": "2023-05-17", "guest": "Matthew Dallek", "title": "A historian details how a secretive, extremist group radicalized the American right", "question_index": 27, "text": "The John Birch Society, basically, ceases being active in 1972. What are some of the things that contributed to its conclusion?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, I think Welch and some of the other founders were fairly open about how they would mimic, mime some of the tactics of their enemies, which they thought were quite effective. I mean, they t"}
{"id": "1176662608", "date": "2023-05-17", "guest": "Matthew Dallek", "title": "A historian details how a secretive, extremist group radicalized the American right", "question_index": 28, "text": "You recently wrote an article in The Atlantic about how far-right movements die and what the Republican Party can learn from the John Birch Society about how to disassociate from extremists. So what do you think are the lessons for today?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. So the Birch Society, you know, it still exists. So it didn't really - it starts to fade as an organization in the early '70s. Two things I think contributed to its demise. One was the pushback f"}
{"id": "1176662608", "date": "2023-05-17", "guest": "Matthew Dallek", "title": "A historian details how a secretive, extremist group radicalized the American right", "question_index": 29, "text": "Since your new book is about the John Birch Society and the radicalization of the American right, what are you particularly focusing on now in looking at the new presidential campaign? It's in its early stages, but it's starting to develop.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I do think that institutions, as battered as they are today - institutions, whether they're government or non-government, can push back. And that pushback can have an effect. You know, there are"}
{"id": "1176662608", "date": "2023-05-17", "guest": "Matthew Dallek", "title": "A historian details how a secretive, extremist group radicalized the American right", "question_index": 30, "text": "Matthew Dallek, thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm very much interested in this question of containing extremism and, how can it be contained? You know, the assumption I think that I had, a lot of people had, is that if MAGA Republicans, Tru"}
{"id": "1176662608", "date": "2023-05-17", "guest": "Matthew Dallek", "title": "A historian details how a secretive, extremist group radicalized the American right", "question_index": 31, "text": "Matthew Dallek's new book is called \"Birchers: How The John Birch Society Radicalized The American Right.\" After we take a short break, John Powers will review a new French crime film that swept the French equivalent of the Oscars. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's been such a pleasure to talk to you, Terry. Thank you."}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 0, "text": "So when you sang him your initial idea, what was it that you sang?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I had this idea at home one day. And I ran into the studio, and I said, Giorgio, I have this idea. Would you - do you think you could write something to it? And I sort of sang it to him, and he "}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 1, "text": "You say in the book you approached the song like an actress because you didn't think of yourself as having that kind of really sexy persona. So tell us about how you did approach recording the vocal.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, love to - I love - (singing) I love to love you, baby - you know, the melody of the song. And then he went from there and produced something and then I began to sing it. And then I began to "}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 2, "text": "Well, I think this would be a good place to hear your recording of \"Love To Love You Baby.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the vocal was - it was very breathy and airy. And basically, I was a theater singer, so I had been, you know, much more of a belter. And it was really different and difficult for me to tap into "}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 3, "text": "That's Donna Summer's first big hit. Now, when Neil Bogart decided to have this record on his label, he wanted a longer version for the dance clubs. So you had to go back and do, like, a long version, like - what? - 14 minutes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I love to love you, baby. I love to love you, baby. I love to love you, baby. I love to love you, baby. I love to love you, baby. When you're laying so close to me, there's no place I'd rath"}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 4, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it wasn't for the dance clubs, actually. I think Neil had a little something else in mind. It worked out for the dance clubs."}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 5, "text": "Torrid love", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But it actually - it was for..."}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But it actually - it was for..."}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 7, "text": "So what did you add for the long version?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...The secret times - secret lives of many people. But he had played the short version when he was with his wife, and he thought that it was too short. And he said, this mood is so great. I just want "}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 8, "text": "What did you do to set your mood?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there was music - extension music added and bridge music, and there were other melodies inserted and then just sort of vocal swells. You know, just - it was a mood setter."}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 9, "text": "Now, after recording \"Love To Love You Baby,\" you were brought to the United States to promote the record. And as you say, this is when you were transformed into a sex queen and sophisticated diva, which was a kind of awkward position for you to be in judging from what you write in your book because, first of all, you were brought up in the church. And second of all, you were used to singing in, like, a theater setting, not being the sex queen. And you thought of yourself as comedic, not the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It's embarrassing to me to say this now, but it's true. And we nailed the song, finally. And, you know, like I said, I came up with some vocal approaches that were not - basically no one had ever do"}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 10, "text": "...Sex queen.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Definitely."}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 11, "text": "So how were you transformed? What were some of the things that you were told you needed to wear or say or act like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What a contrast."}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 12, "text": "How did you like the image?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, I have - you know, everybody has different portions of their personality, and I tend to be - I can be very, very quiet and to myself and withdrawn. And I just, you know, sort of - and I "}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 13, "text": "You are already a mother by then.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I didn't like the image per se. I mean, I didn't particularly care for the sex image. I thought it was kind of narrow, and I felt like I was going to have to break out real soon, otherwise I was"}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 14, "text": "Did that make it more uncomfortable, being a mother?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I had one daughter, Mimi, by this time."}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 15, "text": "Did she ever say that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think - I mean, I think when you have to be accountable to people, it's hard not to think about what you're doing. When you don't have to be accountable to anyone, then you only have yourself "}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 16, "text": "What was your comeback?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, she did. Yes, she did..."}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 17, "text": "After \"Love To Love You Baby\" became a hit, there was a cake, a now-famous cake, that was made and delivered long distance", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Much to my chagrin. I just told her it was a different time. And, you know, I came from a totally different life than her. And I was very insecure and not able to make my own stand at that time. An"}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Much to my chagrin. I just told her it was a different time. And, you know, I came from a totally different life than her. And I was very insecure and not able to make my own stand at that time. An"}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 19, "text": "Would you describe the cake...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It sure was."}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 20, "text": "...And the extremes that were gone to to deliver the cake to its destination?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 21, "text": "There's a photograph in your book of your parents sitting on a couch next to the cake...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that cake is actually in the book. And it was a cake that was made by Hansen's Cakes in LA. And they did a picture of me from the album cover. And the cake was - oh, gosh, I think it maybe it wa"}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 22, "text": "...Staring at the cake with a look, I think, of confusion and resignation on their faces.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 23, "text": "What did they think of this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Looking at it - what is going on here?"}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 24, "text": "Why don't we hear another recording? And this is another one of your hits, one of your - I guess it was like your second big hit, your second really big hit. This is the song \"Last Dance,\" which is from the film \"Thank God It's Friday.\" Let's hear it.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2003 interview with disco queen Donna Summer. She died in 2012 and is the subject of a new HBO documentary called \"Love To Love You, Donna Summer.\""}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 25, "text": "That's Donna Summer, her hit \"Last Dance.\" That's - what we hear at the beginning of that is something typical for some of your songs - starting slow, and then the beat comes in and everything speeds up. Is that something that you and Moroder knew would really work? And what really works about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Last dance, last chance for love. Yes, it's my last chance for romance tonight. I need you by me, beside me, to guide me, to hold me, to scold me, 'cause when I'm bad, I'm so, so bad. So let"}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 26, "text": "I want to get back to what we were talking about before, which is like, you know, the image that was created for you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think we decided - and I don't know if it was Neil and Giorgio. We - they wanted me to have a slow song as a hit, and they were having a hard time finding the right song for me to sing. And I don't "}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 27, "text": "...Of, like, the disco diva, the sex goddess. Did you feel like you had to live up to that in your personal relationships?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 28, "text": "What were the tours like? I mean, you describe in your book that, you know, sometimes, you'd have, like, male dancers in loincloths.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- guys would be so nervous, like they thought I was going to, you know, just - I don't know - jump on them or something. And I think the image was really pretty hard to live up to at some point, espec"}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 29, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, that was what was happening at the time. I mean, we had this one show that was - I forget who designed the show, but it was a big egg. You know, there was - smoke would be on the stage, an"}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 30, "text": "People threw their bras on stage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Don't ask me whose idea that was. But in any case, the audience would go crazy because the egg had been out there from the time they got there. So I'd be out in that egg for for 10 minutes while peopl"}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 31, "text": "Well, why don't we hear another record here?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "at the stage. And it was like nothing I have ever seen or experienced in my life. It was just such a strange thing. You know, when I would start doing the song, people would literally just break out a"}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 32, "text": "My guest is Donna Summer, and her new book is called \"Ordinary Girl.\" It's an autobiography. Why don't we hear \"Bad Girls?\" And how did you come up with the idea of writing a song about hookers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 33, "text": "Now, as you describe in your book, Neil Bogart from your record label didn't want you to record it. He wanted Cher to record it. What was his problem with having you record this song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And it came about because someone in my office was accosted by the police, and they thought that she was a hooker. And that's how the story came about."}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 34, "text": "How'd you get back to it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He just thought it was too rock 'n' roll, too - he didn't think it was dance enough at the time, the way it was recorded originally. And I had gone in and recorded it with my husband Bruce and the Bro"}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 35, "text": "It's such a great record. Let's hear it. This is Donna Summer singing \"Bad Girls.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, How it came about was pretty bizarre, actually. I was in the studio. And a friend of mine worked in the studio. He ran the studio, actually, as an engineer, Steve Smith. And he was going through"}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 36, "text": "Did you love doing the show?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I went there when I auditioned for \"Hair,\" and I got the part, and that was - I auditioned in New York, and I got the part. They were getting ready to put up a cast of \"Hair\" in Germany, and they "}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 37, "text": "Was that a good thing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, at the time, yeah, I did. It was it was a lot of fun. And I was coming of age in a whole other climate and a whole other community with - you know, with different challenges and different excite"}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 38, "text": "What was good about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it was great."}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 39, "text": "That's beautiful because, like, in Germany, you found out who you really were, and then you became a star and they made you over to somebody else.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think growing up - you know, I grew up in the church and grew up very strict. And this was the antithesis of that. And I really had to find my way in the middle and go, OK, this is my line. I'"}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 40, "text": "I want to ask you about being born again. I know that's been very important in your life. At what point in your life did that happen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 41, "text": "Like, what point - like, what records were coming out at about this time, just so we can place it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It happened at the height of my career, to tell you the truth. And it happened at a time when I probably without it would not be alive. And so I think that it was my - definitely without a question, I"}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 42, "text": "And some of the things that were going wrong with your life at that time, you say you don't think you would have survived if you hadn't...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, let's see. Where am I at? It was probably around the \"Bad Girls,\" \"Enough Is Enough\" - no, maybe it was a little after that - somewhere in there, somewhere around and about that time, you know."}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 43, "text": "...Been born again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 44, "text": "What was going wrong?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I wouldn't have."}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 45, "text": "Do you have a favorite of your hits that we haven't played yet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Clears throat) Excuse me. I just - I think that I was exhausted, I think, emotionally exhausted. I had seen it all. I felt like I'd seen it all. And I didn't feel like there was anything left to do. "}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 46, "text": "\"On The Radio\" - good choice. Let's hear \"On The Radio.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Favorite - well, I like \"Last Dance.\" I love \"Last Dance.\" And I love, you know, \"On The Radio\" too."}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 47, "text": "Tell us about, you know, the origin of the song and the production on it, how you put it together.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, you clever little one."}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 48, "text": "You know the whoa-oh? You know, like, on the radio, whoa-oh? Sorry for doing that so horribly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. Mmm hmm. Well, \"On The Radio\" was - I was in the studio with \"On The Radio\" for about three weeks to a month - not in the studio with it, but I had the song. Giorgio had given me the track, and I "}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 49, "text": "Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Whoa-oh-oh-oh."}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 50, "text": "When - at what point in the song does that actually come to you, that you were going to do that there? Is that when you're at the mic, or is that when you're doing the songwriting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 51, "text": "Donna Summer, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that I just did that spontaneously. I mean, I don't think that - I don't - I just think it came out. I don't think I planned it, you know, but just probably needed something there."}
{"id": "1177051979", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Donna Summer", "title": "Donna Summer: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 52, "text": "OK Well, this is Donna Summer, \"On The Radio.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1177053769", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Chris Strachwitz", "title": "Remembering Chris Strachwitz, the founder of Arhoolie Records", "question_index": 0, "text": "When you started collecting records, where did you go to get them? I mean, I think a lot of people thought of 78s as junk that they'd just sell in flea markets or give them away.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that was my first exposure to all of it, and I was absolutely wiped out by it. I guess I had a lot of insecure feelings. I couldn't speak the language. I was real skinny. And somehow the blues"}
{"id": "1177053769", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Chris Strachwitz", "title": "Remembering Chris Strachwitz, the founder of Arhoolie Records", "question_index": 1, "text": "What made you decide to try to record people and meet the people whose record you were listening to and record new records by them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that was, at that time, the only kind of record. That was the only one in existence. It was a marvelous medium. And it turned out almost every kind of vernacular music was recorded. And I found "}
{"id": "1177053769", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Chris Strachwitz", "title": "Remembering Chris Strachwitz, the founder of Arhoolie Records", "question_index": 2, "text": "Some of the early music that you recorded was zydeco music in Louisiana, in - at house parties, in bars. I want to play one of those early sessions, but before I play it, tell us what zydeco is and how it's distinguished from, say, Cajun music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, since I was so enamored with this whole idea of records and what's on them - you know, I always collected things and stamps before that. But records, you could hear what's in those grooves. And "}
{"id": "1177053769", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Chris Strachwitz", "title": "Remembering Chris Strachwitz, the founder of Arhoolie Records", "question_index": 3, "text": "Now, I want to play something that you made in the early 1960s. This is called \"Tap Dance.\" It's by a group, McZiel & Gernger. Tell us where you recorded this, who they are.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I didn't know what zydeco music was, either, when I first went down there in 1960 or '59. So I simply asked people, what does zydeco mean? And some of them said, well, it means snap beans, not s"}
{"id": "1177053769", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Chris Strachwitz", "title": "Remembering Chris Strachwitz, the founder of Arhoolie Records", "question_index": 4, "text": "Rub board is like washboard?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm really not too sure who they were. At that time, I was just wandering around and just asking people, you know? I was driving, and they said, oh, yeah - I met them somehow through someone els"}
{"id": "1177053769", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Chris Strachwitz", "title": "Remembering Chris Strachwitz, the founder of Arhoolie Records", "question_index": 5, "text": "Well, let's go to this 1961 recording that you made at a house party in Lafayette, La.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, like a washboard. And at that time, they were still pretty much looked like a washboard. I later found out that some of them would take pieces out of an old icebox where there was corrugated ste"}
{"id": "1177053769", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Chris Strachwitz", "title": "Remembering Chris Strachwitz, the founder of Arhoolie Records", "question_index": 6, "text": "Let's play something by Fred McDowell. Now, this is also one of the early recordings that you made. He was a Mississippi blues guitarist and singer. And probably the most famous record that you recorded of his is \"You Got To Move,\" which was later covered by the Rolling Stones.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's return to Terry's 1990 interview with Chris Strachwitz, the founder of Arhoolie Records, who died earlier this month at age 91."}
{"id": "1177053769", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Chris Strachwitz", "title": "Remembering Chris Strachwitz, the founder of Arhoolie Records", "question_index": 7, "text": "Let me play something that you recorded by him in 1965. This is \"You Got To Move.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I guess that's the one that became famous because they did it, you know? And he was an extraordinary person. I was wiped away when I heard the Alan Lomax collection from Mississippi. And I remem"}
{"id": "1177053769", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Chris Strachwitz", "title": "Remembering Chris Strachwitz, the founder of Arhoolie Records", "question_index": 8, "text": "Fred McDowell singing \"You've Got To Move.\" Now, this is a song attributed to Fred McDowell. Is it ever hard to tell who actually wrote a song - a blues song...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You got to move. You got to move. You got to move, child. You got to move. But when the Lord gets ready, you got to move. You may be high. You may be low..."}
{"id": "1177053769", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Chris Strachwitz", "title": "Remembering Chris Strachwitz, the founder of Arhoolie Records", "question_index": 9, "text": "...'Cause there seems to be so many permutations of more or less the same song. And I found in books that I read that, sometimes, songs are attributed to different people depending...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1177053769", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Chris Strachwitz", "title": "Remembering Chris Strachwitz, the founder of Arhoolie Records", "question_index": 10, "text": "...On who you're reading.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes..."}
{"id": "1177053769", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Chris Strachwitz", "title": "Remembering Chris Strachwitz, the founder of Arhoolie Records", "question_index": 11, "text": "So how did you handle it on \"You Got To Move?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...It's a real problem. That's - in that particular instance, it's a traditional song, but the arrangement is by Fred McDowell. Reverend Gary Davis also had a very distinctive arrangement of it. But y"}
{"id": "1177053769", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Chris Strachwitz", "title": "Remembering Chris Strachwitz, the founder of Arhoolie Records", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "you opened a can of worms. OK. Mr. Klein, who was the manager of the Rolling Stones, he insisted, of course, that everything the Stones recorded was theirs. However, Mick Jagger was good enough to put"}
{"id": "1177053769", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Chris Strachwitz", "title": "Remembering Chris Strachwitz, the founder of Arhoolie Records", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well, let's get to the border region and play some music of the Southwest. You have a film that you did along with Les Blank. It's called \"Chulas Fronteras.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Who represented Reverend Gary Davis, called me. And he said, Chris, you know, Reverend Gary Davis wrote that song, not Fred McDowell. I says, Manny, you and everybody else knows it's a traditional "}
{"id": "1177053769", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Chris Strachwitz", "title": "Remembering Chris Strachwitz, the founder of Arhoolie Records", "question_index": 14, "text": "And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Chulas Fronteras,\" yeah."}
{"id": "1177053769", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Chris Strachwitz", "title": "Remembering Chris Strachwitz, the founder of Arhoolie Records", "question_index": 15, "text": "Now, what kind of music are you playing on here?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We did that - oh, that's almost over 10 years, 15 years ago. But it's still a classic."}
{"id": "1177053769", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Chris Strachwitz", "title": "Remembering Chris Strachwitz, the founder of Arhoolie Records", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, this is the accordionist Flaco Jimenez. And the song is \"Un Mojado Sin Licencia.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is what most people down there call conjunto music. But of course, the Spanish word conjunto simply means group. In Cuba, they call groups conjuntos, etc. But down there in south Texas, it means "}
{"id": "1177053769", "date": "2023-05-19", "guest": "Chris Strachwitz", "title": "Remembering Chris Strachwitz, the founder of Arhoolie Records", "question_index": 17, "text": "OK, let's give it a listen.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Un Mojado Sin Licencia\" - \"A Wetback Without A License.\" That was written by his father, the late Santiago Jimenez. Yeah."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 0, "text": "So you grew up in Istria, which is a peninsula kind of parallel to Italy. The northwestern tip is attached to Italy, and the northeastern tip is attached to Croatia. The year you were born, in 1947 - that was the year that the peninsula that you lived on switched hands from Italy to Yugoslavia, which was communist. So your mother was pregnant with you at the time. A lot of their friends fled Istria because they didn't want to live in a communist country. But because your mother was pregnant, your father said, you're not going to give birth in a refugee camp. So we're staying. When you look back at that time and think about what a consequential decision your parents had to make while your mother was pregnant with you, what do you think about when you reflect on that?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies. Our guest, Lidia Bastianich, is a celebrity chef famous for her Italian recipes. She has a long-running PBS series, \"Lidia's Kitchen.\" She's written over 15 cookboo"}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 1, "text": "Oh, things worked out, that's for sure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, Terry, when I reflect on my life, I'm grateful. I had a wonderful life. I had a wonderful family. So I cannot regret anything that happened. If anything in that period, maybe of having a har"}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 2, "text": "But I just imagine what it must have been like for your parents to decide whether to flee or stay while you were in utero, you know.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 3, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Well, maybe I'll just describe a little bit the actual situation. So Istria is a little peninsula that is across from Venice. And it is on the other side, you have Dalmatia now. And that area i"}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 4, "text": "Did the food change?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They began to change the names. You couldn't speak the language."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 5, "text": "There wasn't any", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The food changed because there wasn't enough of it."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The food changed because there wasn't enough of it."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There wasn't enough. And that's where..."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 8, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...My grandmother and all the animals and - she supplied - she lived in a little town outside of Pola - Pola is the big town that's now called Pula - where we lived. So my parents put my brother and m"}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 9, "text": "Your father was arrested when you were a child, when you were still living on the peninsula. And you went to visit him with your mother when you were, I think, 8 years old. That must have been terrifying, to be in a prison and see your father in it. Can you describe what you witnessed and the impact that it had on you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And there she also - because food was scarce, was rationed. You can only buy certain things. Only certain things at certain times were available. Her husband, my grandmother and her, of course, starte"}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 10, "text": "You eventually left. You were 10, I think...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I remember that vividly, the - my - the fright that I felt. So my father was - he was a mechanic, but he had two trucks. So he was a little businessman. And he was considered by the communists coming "}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 11, "text": "...When you left the peninsula under false premises. Your mother and her sister, your aunt, and your sister was living in Italy, in Trieste. They concocted this plan where they would say that your aunt was terminally ill and that your mother and your aunt wanted to see each other and say their goodbyes with your mother's children, with you and your brother, one last time. And so you got across, and the plan was your father would walk across and sneak across later, which he managed to do after nearly getting killed. So when he finally crossed the border with, like, secret police shooting at him and living in the woods and climbing over barbed wire fences and so on, what kind of shape was he in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 12, "text": "And then you ended up moving to a refugee camp, which was - actually, it was called San Sabba.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I remember he - it was 1 o' clock at night, and the door banging and my mother crying, my aunt crying, everybody. So us kids jumped up because we weren't aware that we are not going back home. They do"}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 13, "text": "San Sabba. And it was, basically, a former concentration camp during World War II. There's a picture of it in your memoir - doesn't look good.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "San Sabba, yes."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 14, "text": "No. Describe what the atmosphere was like there. I think you didn't know at the time that it had been a concentration camp. But, you know, there was a crematorium there, too. There were the ovens. So, like, what was the feeling? Did it feel haunted, even though you didn't know what had gone on there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it's..."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 15, "text": "What was the smell?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. There was a feeling of darkness. There was a smell. There was, you know..."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 16, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was musty, mud because, also, the courtyard - you know, it was enclosed. Everything was enclosed. They had this big gate, and you couldn't pass. Now, just to explain how we got there, when we came "}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 17, "text": "Bunk beds.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So - and they kind of would spot people that escaped, you know, because they're kind of - look lost, and they would repatriate them. They would bring them to the guards and say, listen to the police. "}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 18, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Two bunk beds. Yeah."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 19, "text": "When you waited on line for the food, what were you given? What were you - what did you eat?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One for the kids and the other side my parents, and we stayed there until we began the process of vetting and beginning to file our papers."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 20, "text": "You had a lot of trauma as a child, whether you recognized it as trauma or not, and I'm wondering what the relationship in your life has been between food and trauma 'cause one way of trying to soothe yourself when you're suffering through a trauma or reliving the trauma is to eat or to eat comfort foods, foods that you love. Of course, at the time, food wasn't plentiful for you. It was scarce. So what do you think, in the long term, like, your relationship between food and trauma has been?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mostly, I remember was always spaghetti with tomato sauce, and we did get an apple at the end - usually a fruit, an apple or something like that. Yeah. And on Sundays, we were allowed to go out with p"}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 21, "text": "So when you were in the former concentration camp, at some point you were allowed out to go to a convent school. You had come from the peninsula where basically religion had been banned. So you started to learn about Catholicism, and you also worked in the kitchen there, and that - you've described that as your introduction to commercial cooking. What's one or two of the things that you learned that you later were able to apply to restaurants?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview Terry recorded with Lidia Bastianich, host of the Italian cooking show \"Lidia's Kitchen.\" She's also a chef, restaurant owner and bestselling cookboo"}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 22, "text": "Well, you said you found a spirituality there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, how did I get to go to that school? There was a family, actually - Senora Leonori (ph). She was a wonderful woman. She had three sons, and one of them was autistic. And she was looking for someb"}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 23, "text": "What did that feel like? How would you describe what you found?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. I did, and..."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 24, "text": "Does your sense of spirituality connect with food, particularly the kind of food and cooking you grew up with, with, you know, slaughtering animals for your food and growing the food, you know, and your grandmother's food in the garden where everything was - it was all of the earth. It was all natural. It wasn't like going to the supermarket and buying, like, frozen chicken.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think, you know, what does religion bring to anybody? And I don't think it matters which religion it is. It brings a sense of hope that, you know, that not all is lost, that it's not the end, "}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 25, "text": "A life cycle.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. You know, and not only did we grow things, but it was a whole culture of foraging. Spring would come. We would go and forage for wild dandelions, for wild asparagus, mushrooms in fall. So "}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 26, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nature - yeah."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 27, "text": "Your favorite nun at the convent, when you were leaving to come to America, I gave you two things - a small Bible and the cross that she had worn that another nun had given to her. She gave that cross to you. Do you still have it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nature were giving you gifts that you didn't have to pay for. So there is, you know, a sort of a - kind of a higher work place in in the works here that we have this food that - you know, that dirt th"}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 28, "text": "Trauma.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I have both. Her name was - happened to be Lidia also. I think she was very instrumental in bringing me into a spiritual place. And as you said before, you know, Lidia, you must have had a lot of"}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 29, "text": "So you came to America when you were 12. And you were desperate to try TV dinners after you moved here.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies. Let's get back to our interview with Lidia Bastianich, a celebrated chef, bestselling cookbook author, restaurant owner and winner of multiple James Beard Awards. S"}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 30, "text": "Why TV dinners?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies. Let's get back to our interview with Lidia Bastianich, a celebrated chef, bestselling cookbook author, restaurant owner and winner of multiple James Beard Awards. S"}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 31, "text": "Did you even have a TV?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 32, "text": "Yes, it was.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, no, I didn't. But it was very American."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 33, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I'd never had it."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 34, "text": "Did they bring TV dinners?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I - you know, you come - and we were brought here by the Catholic charities, so we had nobody in America either. And they put us first in a hotel. And ultimately they did settle us in New Jersey. T"}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 35, "text": "Yes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But..."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 36, "text": "What was it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But, you know, going to the store, shopping with the cart, was a guarded sort of effort because Mom had exactly calculated how much we're going to spend (inaudible) - so a lot of chicken necks, you kn"}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 37, "text": "Turkey?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think breast..."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 38, "text": "With the gravy, of course", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, they had breast of - it was peas. It was mashed potatoes. It was the breast of chicken or turkey - I don't remember - with the gravy."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 39, "text": ". How was it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, they had breast of - it was peas. It was mashed potatoes. It was the breast of chicken or turkey - I don't remember - with the gravy."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 40, "text": "Oh, good.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's good."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 41, "text": "So you worked for a while at a bakery called Walken's Bakery, which is Christopher Walken's parents' bakery. Did you meet Christopher Walken?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's good."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 42, "text": "You worked together?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We worked together."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 43, "text": "Oh, no. Really? What was he like as a kid?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We're still friends."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 44, "text": "How old were you and how old was he? You were 14. How old was he?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There were three brothers. There was Glenn, Christopher and Ken."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 45, "text": "Same age?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was 14. Yeah. I think he's about four..."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 46, "text": "Oh, he's a good dancer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, he was three or four years older than I am. And, you know, the father was a German immigrant. The mother was Scottish, but I think she was born here. And the kids worked. He put them to work. "}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 47, "text": "He is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He is."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 48, "text": "You met your future husband at your own sweet 16.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He was going to that, and, you know, this - the mother was into putting them in the film industry and the performing industry. And ultimately, you know, on weekends they would come, they would h"}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 49, "text": "And he was also - he was from the same peninsula, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 50, "text": "Yeah. And you got married, like, midway through college.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was. He was from the other side of the peninsula, yes."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 51, "text": "And you left college because you also got pregnant soon after...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 52, "text": "...You were married. And, of course, your mother was very upset. She wanted you to finish college.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 53, "text": "Yeah. So - and your son, after being - when he was 18 months old, he was diagnosed with a kind of blood bone disease.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was very upset."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 54, "text": "So he had to stop walking for a year. So just when children are really, like, learning to walk, he couldn't walk. He was in a - not a cast...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, with Perthes'. Perthes' disease is a bone disease. And it is in developing infants in the hip joint, the round part - it doesn't get enough nourishment. And if they walk, they consume it and ultim"}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 55, "text": "...A brace for...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A brace."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 56, "text": "...Eighteen months.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He had a brace. He had to..."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 57, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, had to keep his legs so that..."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 58, "text": "And this is about the same time that you and your husband are starting your first restaurant, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...The bone would get the nourishment."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 59, "text": "What was it like for you as a mother of a son who needed a lot of attention - I'm sure you were very worried about him - to also be having this new undertaking with your husband? And you were needed at the restaurant, and you were needed at home.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, just after - we were planning. But just after that, yes, we opened our first restaurant."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 60, "text": "Velcro?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's hard for a mother to hear that a child - no matter, you know, what the illness is. So the fact of assessing that and understanding and understanding that it eventually could be cured, that "}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 61, "text": "So they helped raise your son?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Put him back into the braces. So it was a tough time. But again, I consider myself blessed in the sense that I had my mother and my father. We always kind of - by now we had nobody else - we lived "}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 62, "text": "What was on your first menu in your first restaurant?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You should get an education and go on. They're back into it."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 63, "text": "But you started off with the large meatballs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it was all Italian American because, you know, in '71 all the famous restaurants were Italian American. And certainly the chef that we hired was Italian American. And then once I went into the kit"}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 64, "text": "It's hard - not that I've ever been a chef, but it must be very hard to coordinate serving, like, a whole table at the same time, even though they're all ordering different things, while serving all the other tables, you know, who are also ordering different things. It must be, like, incredibly stressful. And we've all read stories about chefs who are or who become, like, drug-addicted or alcoholic or something, in part because of all the stress. How have you dealt with the stress of, you know, running restaurants or being the chef or being both at the same time?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview Terry recorded with Lidia Bastianich, host of the Italian cooking show \"Lidia's Kitchen.\" She's also a chef, restaurant owner and bestselling cookboo"}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 65, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think, you know, just as a person, you have to look at different things. And I think, going back, all the experience that I had..."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 66, "text": "Yeah, yeah, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Maybe attributed to my strength. Spirituality certainly..."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 67, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Did. You know, unity, family - all of this certainly did. But, you know, sometimes you do become overstressed. And in defense of all these people that work and that sort of go to drinking or whatev"}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 68, "text": "What would you do to relax...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Turmoil and adrenaline running through you. So it's a position, a job that is kind of conducive to that. You have to have strength to stay strong."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 69, "text": "...After a day at the restaurant?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For me, as...."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 70, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For me, as a woman..."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 71, "text": "That's so relaxing. I know. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I would go home and do the wash, do the ironing."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 72, "text": "Your mother died in 2021 during COVID. Was it COVID-related?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But what I do - because, you know, I get asked a lot of times, so, Lidia, where do you get your creative juices and whatever? And I do revert to nature. I love the water, sea. I love sailing, swimming"}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 73, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No. She died of a heart condition. She was 100 in January and died in February."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 74, "text": "Your father died - was it in 1970 or something?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, you know, as much as - still to this day, because she always lived with me, I'm grateful I had - you know, I didn't have her for all 100 years, but I had her until her 100th year."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 75, "text": "Yeah. And so he didn't live...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "'71."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 76, "text": "He didn't live to see how successful you became as a chef, as a restaurant owner, as a TV personality. You have your own cookware line and your own, like, home shopping network. He didn't live to see that, but your mother did. You must be so grateful that she lived to see that and to know that the choices that they made worked out so well in the long run.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "'81."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 77, "text": "Yeah. I want to thank you so much for being here this evening.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Did we do the right thing? Or maybe we shouldn't. Is this going to be OK for the kids? And I always felt - and my brother as well, you know - that we had to - we wanted to show them that the decision "}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 78, "text": "I want to thank you for your recipes, for your TV show and also just for your strength.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1177882468", "date": "2023-05-24", "guest": "Lidia Bastianich", "title": "Chef Lidia Bastianich looks back on her family's chaotic life in Europe after WWII", "question_index": 79, "text": "So I appreciate that. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. Thank you, thank you."}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 0, "text": "Well, after you had your baby, you were the voice of the woman in the answering service for the TV detective, Richard Diamond.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Happy Hotpoint was the logo of Hotpoint appliances come to life - an elf, a little figure with a shock of blonde hair protruding from her little grey pixie cap that also had ears on it. But I was Happ"}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 1, "text": "Now, let me jump ahead to \"The Dick Van Dyke Show.\" What were you told about the character of Laura?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. That was played by David Janssen. And it was - I guess it had started on radio. And one of the successful elements of it was a character called Sam, short for Samantha, who was the answering se"}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 2, "text": "But it wasn't that easy. The sponsors were afraid you'd look brazen.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just that she was going to be a wife, a television wife, and that really had its classical parameters and dimensions. And they were established, and they hardly ever varied except as to whether or not"}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 3, "text": "Cupping under referring to the fit of your pants...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. They pointed specifically to - they used a term, cupping under. And I can only assume that that meant my - you know, my seat - that there was a little too much definition. And so they allowed m"}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 4, "text": "...On your behind.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The fit of the pants, yes."}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "On my behind, right. But within a few weeks we were sneaking them into a few other scenes in every episode, and they were definitely cupping under, and everyone thought it was great."}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yeah, well, I think that speaks so well for the character and your portrayal of her. Why capri pants? Why not...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And the funny thing is, you know, women liked me. They were not envious of the fact that their husbands had a crush on me. It was OK with them. They were the first to - you know, when I would meet peo"}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 7, "text": "Why not longer pants?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And the funny thing is, you know, women liked me. They were not envious of the fact that their husbands had a crush on me. It was OK with them. They were the first to - you know, when I would meet peo"}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 8, "text": "Now, how did you come up with a voice to say, oh, Rob?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was a store in Los Angeles in Beverly Hills called Jax, J-A-X. And a man named Jack Hanson owned it, and it's now no longer there. And he designed these trousers. And they came in all fabrics, a"}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 9, "text": "Did you do a lot of rehearsing with Dick Van Dyke? Or did you just have to do it minutes before the actual broadcast?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. I guess it began with the cry. The first time I cried was the episode in which Laura bleaches her hair blonde, looks in the mirror and with her friend Millie's help decides she looks mor"}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 10, "text": "(Singing) What a girl, what a world, what a life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, the whole show was done in what they call multiple-camera technique. It's still done today. But back then, we were maybe the sixth or seventh show to use the technique. It began with Joan Davis - "}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 11, "text": "Yeah", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hey. Good for you."}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hey. Good for you."}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 13, "text": "Oh, I have another question about Laura Petrie's look.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then Lucy and several other shows followed. But in that show, it's a little like doing theater that's captured on film. You rehearse for five days. And then on the evening of the fifth day, the au"}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 14, "text": "Laura wore a flip.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah?"}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 15, "text": "Perfect little flip.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 16, "text": "Whose idea was the flip? And how were you wearing your hair in real life at the time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 17, "text": "When you say that thing, was it your hair or was it a wig?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In real life, I was wearing it in a flip. But it wasn't quite as back-combed and lacquered as it was on the show. I mean, that thing had so much hair spray on it, you could hang clothes from it."}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 18, "text": "Well, let's talk about \"The Mary Tyler Moore Show,\" a show which I still love to watch. Now, \"The Mary Tyler Moore Show\" got started because CBS wanted to build a series around you. And you and Grant Tinker hired people to, you know, write - come up with the idea, write a series. What was the original premise?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1995 interview with Mary Tyler Moore, who is the subject of a new documentary on HBO, which premieres tonight."}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 19, "text": "That's so silly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The original premise was not too different from the one that we ended up pursuing. But I was to be divorced from a doctor. And rather than having - as we ended up doing - having me live with this doct"}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 20, "text": "The character of Ted Baxter was originally conceived as being someone of your age?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And instead, what's so odd from a morality point of view is that they found it acceptable that I had lived with this doctor, never married him. And then the relationship broke up. And I went off"}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 21, "text": "And there might be some, like, romantic attraction between you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 22, "text": "What won them over? Was that big, pretentious voice part of it", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. He was probably going to be tall, dark and handsome. And instead, what walked through the door was Ted Knight - short, white-haired and handsome, yes, but not what you'd call a love interest."}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 23, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. He was probably going to be tall, dark and handsome. And instead, what walked through the door was Ted Knight - short, white-haired and handsome, yes, but not what you'd call a love interest."}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 24, "text": "You write in your book that later into the series, Ted Knight wept because people thought he was really stupid...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, there was another thing that won them over. It wasn't just the fact that he was pomposity to the nth degree, but that there was a vulnerability and a sweetness to Ted. We found out later tha"}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 25, "text": "...They confused him so much with the character.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 26, "text": "Oops.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I don't remember exactly what year it was. I think it might have been - might have been the second year, or maybe - no, I think it was the first year. And people were mistaking him for the charac"}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 27, "text": "I think one of the real famous moments in television openings and one of the famous freeze frames is you throwing your hat in the air in the opening of the show...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But he had a sense of humor about it, and he got it out of his system. I think that's all he needed to do. I think, you know, that's probably all a lot of us need to do on many occasions of frustratio"}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 28, "text": "...With the jingle underneath.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 29, "text": "Do you remember that moment?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 30, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, do I. It was freezing cold. It was in Minneapolis in January, I think, or February. And we didn't know what we were doing. We were just there to grab a lot of footage that shows a young woman's ex"}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 31, "text": "So that traffic was the real thing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But it's interesting, isn't it, that something that becomes burned in people's impressions and memories can happen so happenstance-ly (ph) out of nowhere. It wasn't written. It was just a spur of the "}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 32, "text": "I have a colleague here who said, \"The Mary Tyler Moore Show\" made me who I am today - single.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, it was. And it's a good thing I didn't have to speak any lines because my lips weren't working, it was so cold. I literally could not form words."}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 33, "text": "And I thought that was particularly funny because, you know, all those years you were playing \"Mary Tyler Moore,\" you had no idea what it was like to be single.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, it was. And it's a good thing I didn't have to speak any lines because my lips weren't working, it was so cold. I literally could not form words."}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 34, "text": "You got married as soon as you got out of high school. You divorced, but you were only single for about six months before marrying Grant Tinker.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 35, "text": "Yes", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. Boy, you've read the book, haven't you?"}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 36, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. Boy, you've read the book, haven't you?"}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 37, "text": "So really, you'd never lived that kind of single life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 38, "text": "I'm interested in hearing a little bit about your own family when you were growing up since, after all, you know, you portrayed one of the most famous couples on television on \"The Dick Van Dyke Show\" and then had a wonderful family of friends and colleagues...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. Let's get back to Terry's 1995 interview with Mary Tyler Moore. The new documentary \"Being Mary Tyler Moore\" premieres tonight on HBO. When they spoke, she had jus"}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 39, "text": "...On \"The Mary Tyler Moore Show.\" When you were growing up, your own family was probably what we'd now call dysfunctional.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 40, "text": "I agree.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, I suppose so. It's an overused phrase, and I wish we could be a little more specific about it."}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 41, "text": "No, no, no. Oh, no, no, no, no.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My - no, and I didn't mean to criticize..."}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 42, "text": "I didn't take it that way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You for that."}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 43, "text": "Well, another thing that was less than perfect was your mother drank.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mother and father were very much the couple that Grant Tinker and I became. They say that you do follow the patterns that you grow up in. And this was certainly true in my case - WASP, repressed, u"}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 44, "text": "Did being an actress help you be able to drink and not show the signs of it, help you cover it up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mother was an alcoholic, as I was to become. Her alcoholism took another form from mine. She would, by the dint of determination, be sober for months at a time and then be unable to continue. And a"}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 45, "text": "Did you drink alone?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Maybe so. I don't think so, though, because once your speech is slurred, once you lose balance, the - you know, there's no way you can pretend that away. But I paced myself. I never allowed myself to "}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 46, "text": "Were you afraid that the press would find out that you drank a lot and it would be...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I did. But I was seldom alone, except when I moved to New York. And then I was alone, and then my drinking really escalated."}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 47, "text": "...This whole thing? Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, because..."}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 48, "text": "Oh, I see.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I didn't think I drank a lot."}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 49, "text": "You stopped drinking - I think it was - what? - the mid-'80s.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's the amazing part of it. Most alcoholics are in such a state of denial about their condition. They will blame everything but themselves for whatever is going on. I didn't have hangovers, per se,"}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 50, "text": "You did Betty Ford.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was 11 years ago. Yeah. I guess that was the mid-'80s. Yes - '86."}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 51, "text": "Do you think your emotional character changed after you stopped drinking?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 52, "text": "One of the movies that you've made over the years is \"Change Of Habit\"...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, there's no question about it. In a way, I sometimes feel grateful that I did have this alcoholism, except that there were so many sad events that were caused by it that I can't wholeheartedly say "}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 53, "text": "...Which is an Elvis film in which he plays a doctor in the ghetto, and you're...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 54, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He plays a singing surgeon."}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 55, "text": "A plainclothes nun.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I play a nun."}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 56, "text": "But you start to fall in love. And at the end, you must choose between God and Elvis.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A plainclothes nun who was out of the habit. And it was a story about these two dedicated social workers who come together in the ghetto to bring about goodness to all mankind."}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 57, "text": "Right. So what was it like to play opposite him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And you see a shot of me in church looking from the Jesus - the statue of Jesus and Elvis playing guitar and then to Jesus and Elvis and Jesus and Elvis and Jesus and Elvis. And you never know "}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 58, "text": "Now, this was hardly the film that either you or Elvis became best known for.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was wonderful. And he was nothing like the image that a lot of us have about him. Back then - gosh, what was the year? I don't know - maybe '67 or '68, something like that. He was in great shape, a"}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 59, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. I think it's better said that we triumphed over it."}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 60, "text": "Now, did you regret making the film as it was being made? Did you have a sense that this was not going...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In spite of this film, we continued."}
{"id": "1178374145", "date": "2023-05-26", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Mary Tyler Moore: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 61, "text": "Mary Tyler Moore, thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no, I didn't know what I was doing at that time. Movies were new to me, and, you know, they may have not felt as well-written and -directed as the television shows that I had been involved in. But"}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. On today's holiday show, we're going to listen back to a delightful recent performance and interview with jazz singer Samara Joy. Earlier this year, she became the second jazz performer in Grammy history to win the award for best new artist. To top it off, she also won the Grammy for best jazz vocal album. The album is called \"Linger While,\" which has now been released in a deluxe edition with some bonus material, including alternate arrangements. Samara Joy is 23 and didn't really immerse herself in jazz until she was in college, when she was studying music at the State University of New York's Purchase College. She won the Sarah Vaughan International Jazz Vocal Competition, which helped launch her career. She comes from a family of gospel singers. Her grandparents co-founded a gospel group in Philadelphia called The Savettes and traveled around Philadelphia preaching in their God-mobile (ph). Her father is a singer and bass player who toured with gospel star Andrae Crouch. Samara Joy was a soloist in her church choir in the Bronx. For her FRESH AIR performance, she was joined by Cameron Campbell at the piano, Michael Migliore bass, and Evan Sherman drums. They joined us from the WNYC studios in New York.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 1, "text": "Well, welcome to all of you. Thank you so much for coming. Samara, I really love your singing, and it's so great to have you here. So I'd like to start with a song that you include on the new album. It's a song by Frank Loesser, who also wrote the score for \"Guys And Dolls\" and Jimmy McHugh. The song is \"Can't Get Out Of This Mood.\" And I'm wondering, like, why did you choose this song? What does it mean to you? How did you first hear it? It's not a song that many people do.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 2, "text": "Well, I'd love for you to sing it now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I heard this first from Sarah Vaughan and later on from Nina Simone. And I realized that at the time of choosing it, I was attracted to a lot of sadder torch songs. And so when I heard it, you k"}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 3, "text": "Oh, thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Here we go. (Singing) Can't get out of this mood. Can't get over this feeling. Can't get out of this mood. Last night, your lips were too appealing. The thrill, it should have been all gone by today i"}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 4, "text": "Love your voice. So, you know, when you accepted the Grammy for best new artist, you said that you were amazed at being here by just being yourself, by just being who you were born as. What did you mean by that? Because you seem really overwhelmed by the idea of being here by just being yourself.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 5, "text": "And for both of your acceptance speeches, the Grammys, you said, I'm from the Bronx. I can't believe I'm here. What was your neighborhood like in the Bronx?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was very overwhelmed, and I wish I could go back and do it again. But I guess what I meant - really, in my head, what I was trying to say was, you know, a lot of times in the music industry or from "}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 6, "text": "What's a song you heard early on when you were first getting excited by jazz that made you want to sing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, for me, you know, it was half and half chaotic and peaceful, you know, if that makes sense. My grandmother bought a house in the Bronx that we all lived in and still, you know, have and own to t"}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 7, "text": "Would you sing a few bars, just a cappella, of \"A Stairway To The Stars\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can remember being - one of my - when I was, like, asking my professors what records I should listen to, my vocal teacher, Alexis Cole, she told me to check out Sarah Vaughan live \"At Mister Kelly's"}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 8, "text": "Yeah, great. So Sarah Vaughan was obviously one of your first influences, and you won this - the Sarah Vaughan International Jazz Vocal Competition. Did you listen to her over and over and try to understand what she was doing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Let's build a stairway to the stars and climb that lovely stairway to the stars. It would be heaven to climb to heaven with you."}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 9, "text": "What I think you share with her is just the depth of your voice and a similar range. Like, your vocal placement seems similar. You both have kind of deep voices.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Leading up - oh, yeah. I mean, even before, you know, the Sarah Vaughan - because the Sarah Vaughan competition, I auditioned at the end of my sophomore year going into my junior year. But before that"}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 10, "text": "Right, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I also - I guess I subconsciously wanted to have a wide range like hers because she could sing incredibly low, but also..."}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 11, "text": "What did you learn about your voice studying voice in college? - because you'd already sung a lot with choirs in church.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Had this operatic head voice that was just - it was so strong and so light and airy at the same time, so..."}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, I'd love for you to do another song. And on your new album, you do \"Round Midnight,\" and it's a really beautiful version of it. I like the darkness of it that you bring out in your interpretation. So this is a song - unlike \"Can't Get Out Of This Mood,\" this is a song that, like, lots and lots and lots of jazz musicians do. I think it's one of the most recorded songs in, like, jazz record history. Why did you want to sing it? And what did you want to bring out in it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the main thing I learned probably was I needed to control it more. I think I was - it was either you sing soft or you sing loud. I didn't really have any sense of dynamics at the time along wi"}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well, if you and the band can do it for us, that would really be great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I knew that I wanted to record it and sing it when I heard Carmen McRae live on \"Jazz Casual\" with Ralph Gleason. I heard her do it on his show, and she did these lyrics. And I was like, I'd nev"}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 14, "text": "That was beautiful. Thank you so much. So that's Samara Joy singing. That song was also on her latest album, \"Linger Awhile,\" and accompanying her, Cameron Campbell at the piano, Michael Migliore, bass, and Evan Sherman, drums. Well, that's a tough act to follow. Let's just take a break here, and then we'll talk some more. So if you're just joining us, my guest is double Grammy award-winning singer Samara Joy. And we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) A pale and lonely moon lights the sky in the dark before the dawn. I sit here in my room. How I sigh for the day that's come and gone. Another lonely day passes by, and a new day's coming on"}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Samara Joy. Her latest album, her second, is called \"Linger Awhile.\" It won this year's Grammy for best jazz vocal recording, and she won this year's Grammy for best new artist. She's singing for us today, and accompanying her are Cameron Campbell at the piano, Michael Migliore bass and Evan Sherman drums. So let's talk about your musical background because you are relatively new to jazz, but you are steeped in gospel music. Your grandparents and your father all sang gospel. So let's start with your grandparents. Your grandmother co-founded a gospel choir in Philadelphia called The Savettes. There's a story behind the choir. Could you tell it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) A pale and lonely moon lights the sky in the dark before the dawn. I sit here in my room. How I sigh for the day that's come and gone. Another lonely day passes by, and a new day's coming on"}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 16, "text": "Did your grandmother study opera?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I remember asking my grandfather, you know, how did The Savettes get started? And he told me that my grandmother, Ruth McLendon, paternal grandmother, got together - originally, the group betwee"}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 17, "text": "'Cause she has a kind of operatic range.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not that I know of, actually. No."}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 18, "text": "Wait. So did he or she get the contract?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think all of the studying came in church because I also remember a story of my grandfather, who is 92. I just talked to him the other day. He got - he actually got an operatic - like, I think it was"}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 19, "text": "For him to sing opera, and she threw it in the trash.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He did."}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 20, "text": "Did that carry over to you, that they didn't want you to sing secular music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 21, "text": "Right. So I'd like to play back-to-back recordings with your grandmother singing with The Savettes and with your grandfather singing with The Savettes. So let's hear that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, so I think he's realizing there's more than one way to spread the gospel."}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 22, "text": "So that was Ruth McLendon and Elder Goldwire McLendon singing back to back with their gospel choir, The Savettes. And they are the grandparents of my guest, Samara Joy, who is now a double Grammy Award winner. Well, let's take another short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Samara Joy, and she won this year's Grammys for both best new artist and best jazz vocal recording. And that was for her latest album, \"Linger Awhile.\" We'll be right back, and she'll sing some more for us with her band after this short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Beloved, oh, beloved, we are the sons of God. And it doth not - it doth not yet appear what we shall be. But we know that when He shall appear, oh, but we know when He shall appear..."}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Samara Joy, who's joining us with her band from the studio of WNYC in New York, where she's performing some songs for us. Her latest album, \"Linger Awhile,\" won this year's Grammy for best jazz vocal recording. This year, she also became the second jazz performer ever to win the Grammy for best new artist. She recorded her first album in 2020 when she was still in college. She was already used to singing in public as the lead soloist with her church choir in the Bronx. Her paternal grandparents sang gospel. Her father toured with gospel star Andrae Crouch. Your grandparents had a God-mobile, basically a van that drove around Philly. I live in Philly, but...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Nostalgia hit me as I recalled the day I knew that I loved you. You passed me by on a starry night. How could I forget? You were stunning. A vision of perfection, heaven's very essence - tha"}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 24, "text": "...I never saw (inaudible) before I moved here. So what was that like? Do you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 25, "text": "Did a lot of people show up or just pass by?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my dad told me about it. He is like, my - his mom, my grandmother Ruth, had the idea to kind of - what's - they call it soul saving - so go out into the streets of Philadelphia and preach and si"}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 26, "text": "That must have been interesting, just on the corner.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, they - you know, there were a lot of passersby 'cause - since it was, like, on the sidewalks normally. But my dad does tell stories about people walking by and actually engaging and, you know, s"}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 27, "text": "So did they preach as well as sing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I know. Just driving by, like, what's that commotion over there?"}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 28, "text": "You sang in church during your teen years. You were, like, the lead singer of the choir. Is that the right way of putting it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My - yeah, my grandfather and grandmother were both pastors, and they had a church for a while. They moved to Tennille, Ga., and had their own church for, I want to say, 15 years, something like that "}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 29, "text": "Can you sing a little bit about - one of the gospel songs that you sang in church that you felt most deeply, that most deeply moved you or connected you to, you know, the world beyond self?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I joined - so I joined a church that was actually up the street from my high school when I was around 15. And I started in the choir. And then, eventually, they kind of let me sing with the - it "}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 30, "text": "I want to quote something that you said. I think this was in an interview with the BBC. You said, in church, we come to connect to something greater than ourselves. So if I'm the vessel for that, then I have to be completely free of any sort of ego or nerves. That's what I still keep with me now. I thought that was a really beautiful thing to say. And when you sang in church, you were a teenager. Like, you were 15, 16. It's a very deep thought for a 15- or 16-year-old to have to think of something greater than yourself and of you being a vessel without ego. Did somebody talk to you about that? Is that an idea you came up with yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can do - OK. (Singing) Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine. Oh, what a foretaste of glory divine. Heir of salvation, purchase of God, born of his spirit, washed in his blood."}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 31, "text": "I could see the idea of being chosen working in two ways. On the one hand, like, that's a lot of pressure. Like, you were chosen,", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it's kind of a mix of both. You know, it was what was taught, you know, and as far - it was taught before, you know, being named a worship leader as, like, my role, you know, as far as leading"}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 32, "text": "you know? So you'd better fulfill the promise. On the other hand, it takes the pressure off for the reasons you just mentioned. Did you feel both sides of that, the pressure and the lack of pressure?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it's kind of a mix of both. You know, it was what was taught, you know, and as far - it was taught before, you know, being named a worship leader as, like, my role, you know, as far as leading"}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 33, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. My guest is Samara Joy, and her latest album, which is called \"Linger Awhile,\" won the Grammy for best new jazz vocal recording, and she won this year's Grammy for best new artist. We'll be right back with more music. She's going to sing with her band after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...In a lot of ways, you know? I was just like, I don't - this is, like, before jazz, before SUNY Purchase, before, you know, venturing into jazz, before having proper vocal lessons and stuff. So I ju"}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 34, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Samara Joy. Her latest album, her second, is called \"Linger Awhile.\" It won this year's Grammy for best jazz vocal recording, and she won this year's Grammy for best new artist. She's singing for us today, and accompanying her are Cameron Campbell at the piano, Michael Migliore bass and Evan Sherman drums. I want to get back to talking about your family. We talked about your grandparents. Your father sings gospel and plays bass and toured with Andrae Crouch, who died in 2015 but was a really big star in the world of gospel music. And he was a singer. He was a composer and arranger. He did work on movie scores. So what did - did your father sing and/or play bass? Like, what was his role touring?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...In a lot of ways, you know? I was just like, I don't - this is, like, before jazz, before SUNY Purchase, before, you know, venturing into jazz, before having proper vocal lessons and stuff. So I ju"}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 35, "text": "You mentioned \"The Blood Will Never Lose Its Power.\" You duet with your father in a social media post - it was TikTok, like you said. And I think it's a great duet, so I want our listeners to hear it. Do you want to say anything? So I guess this was on the occasion of Andrae Crouch's death? But he died in 2015.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "From those tours, I remember him doing both. And there's actually a video of him singing Andrae Crouch's - one of his more famous compositions. I believe he says he wrote it when he was, like, 15 year"}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 36, "text": "The anniversary.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. But it was, like, on the anniversary. It was - I think we posted it..."}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 37, "text": "Oh, I see. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...On January 8..."}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 38, "text": "So this is the Andrae Crouch song \"The Blood Will Never Lose Its Power,\" sung by my guest, Samara Joy, singing with her father, Antonio McLendon.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Or something like that. That was when he passed - the day that he passed, at least."}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 39, "text": "SAMARA", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Or something like that. That was when he passed - the day that he passed, at least."}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 40, "text": "OK. That was a social media post of my guest, Samara Joy, singing with her father, Antonio McLendon. And that's really great. It must be so great to sing with your family.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) It reaches to the highest mountain. Yeah. And it flows to the lowest valley. Oh, yes. The blood that gives me strength from day to day - it will never lose its power."}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 41, "text": "So your grandparents, especially your grandfather, I guess, was really opposed to singing secular music at first. What about your father? Did - he, I think, had a pretty extensive record collection beyond gospel.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it really is. I grew up actually listening to them sing. They had an album actually produced by Keith Diamond, who's my uncle-in-law, and he worked with Michael Bolton and James Ingram and Donna"}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 42, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. And he was definitely - both my parents were very supportive of my musical endeavors. You know, in school, they came to every show I was a part of. I did musical theater, and they would come"}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 43, "text": "So what were the things that you heard from your father?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He plays it for me every now and then. So it definitely - it wasn't a problem. I think that their philosophy, because my dad grew up in such a strict household - weren't allowed to go to the movies. Y"}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 44, "text": "Oh, like a recording studio?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he had a studio, actually, at home. And so I would listen to his songs."}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 45, "text": "Oh, do you want to sing one of his songs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A home studio. He would bring in artists that he was, you know, working with just locally. And whoever he's writing songs for - he still does it - you know, whoever he's writing songs for at the time,"}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 46, "text": "And is he singing about Jesus, or is he singing about a loved one?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, gosh. Well, he has one that goes (singing) I like to get away to my secret place where I can seek your face. Seek your face. Oh, how precious is the time we spend in every quiet moment. That's one"}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 47, "text": "Well, you are so - like, music is so in your blood. It probably just came so naturally for you to sing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That song is about God, yeah."}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 48, "text": "Right. OK. It's time for another break. Let me reintroduce you. My guest is Samara Joy, and her latest album, which is called \"Linger Awhile,\" won the Grammy for best new jazz vocal recording. And she won this year's Grammy for best new artist. We'll be right back with more music. She's going to sing with her band after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I really always loved to do it. I had an iPod that my dad gave me. And he would upload songs the old-fashioned way and, you know, from his computer and just have a bunch of albums on there. I'"}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 49, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Samara Joy. Her latest album, \"Linger Awhile,\" won this year's Grammy for best jazz vocal recording. She won this year's Grammy for best new artist. And she's here with her band to sing and talk with us. So I'm going to ask you to do another song. One of the songs on your new album is \"Social Call,\" a song I first knew from \"Betty Carter.\" What does the song mean to you, and how did you first come across it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I really always loved to do it. I had an iPod that my dad gave me. And he would upload songs the old-fashioned way and, you know, from his computer and just have a bunch of albums on there. I'"}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 50, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce your band, too. So joining her at the piano is Cameron Campbell and with Evan Sherman on drums and Michael Migliore on bass. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I actually first heard it sung by Ernestine Anderson on a record called \"Nica's Tempo,\" and I was heavy into that record at the time because I was listening to Art Farmer, and I was listening - becaus"}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 51, "text": "OK. That's Samara Joy singing for us, along with Cameron Campbell at the piano, Michael Migliore bass and Evan Sherman drums. Thank you. Thank you all. Samara, the night you won the Grammys, you went on to the stage. And, you know, you're in your evening gown. And you get up there and realize you didn't have your phone, which had your notes. So had you planned to carry your phone to the stage and read from it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Here we go. (Singing) Happened to pass your doorway. Gave you a buzz, that's all. Lately I've thought lots about you, so I thought I'd pay a social call. Do you recall the old days? We used to have a "}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 52, "text": "What were you going to say that you didn't?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that's exactly what I had planned to do because I knew that if I had won, you know, I wouldn't have been able to say anything in front of people like Lizzo and Beyonce. And so I had my little scr"}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 53, "text": "So can you do one more song for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I was going to talk about music. You know, I was going to talk about music and its impact on me and how, you know, it holds space for all of us to be able to be ourselves, you know, and not ha"}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 54, "text": "I feel the same. What song would you like to do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would absolutely love to. I wish this didn't have to end."}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 55, "text": "This is a Hoagy Carmichael song. And what's the difference between how you did it before and how you're doing it now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right now we'd like to do for you a song that has opened many doors for me since I first recorded it, and the way that I do it has since shifted from the first time I ever tried my hand at it. This is"}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 56, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think about, you know, I think the state of mind that I was in when I first recorded it - I was in college, you know, hadn't had much gig experience or any time of - time on the road. And so I"}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 57, "text": "Thank you all so much. It's just been so wonderful to hear you and to talk with you. Thank you for all the pleasure you've given me and our listeners today. So thank you, Samara Joy and Cameron Campbell who's been at the piano, Michael Migliore bass, Evan Sherman drums. And, Samara, I really wish you good luck. You have such an interesting future ahead, and I hope you continue to follow your heart.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Sometimes, I wonder why I spend the lonely nights dreaming of a song. The melody haunts my reverie, and I am once again with you when our love was new and each kiss an inspiration. But that "}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 58, "text": "Oh, gosh. I'd love that. Samara Joy, recorded in March. Her latest album is called \"Linger Awhile.\" A new expanded edition has just been released with bonus material, including alternate arrangements. Samara and her band joined us from the WNYC studios in New York. Our thanks to WNYC and to recording engineer Irene Trudel. Earlier this month, we celebrated our 36th anniversary as a daily national program. You can hear all the interviews we've broadcast over those years - there are many thousands - by visiting our FRESH AIR archive website at freshairarchive.org. Archive is singular. That's freshairarchive.org. And to keep up with what's on our show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at @nprfreshair.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much. It's such a pleasure talking to you, and I can't wait to meet you in person."}
{"id": "1177940260", "date": "2023-05-29", "guest": "Samara Joy", "title": "Grammy-winning jazz singer Samara Joy joins for concert and conversation", "question_index": 59, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering today from Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Ann Marie Baldonado, Therese Madden, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) The stars shine above you. Linger awhile. Whisper I love you. Linger awhile. When you have gone away, each hour seems like a day. I have something to tell you, so linger awhile. The stars sh"}
{"id": "1179421403", "date": "2023-06-01", "guest": "Kwame Alexander", "title": "Poet Kwame Alexander reflects on 'Why Fathers Cry at Night'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. On the opening page of Kwame Alexander's beautifully written new memoir, he writes, \"my mother died on September 1, 2017. Within a month, the cracks in my marriage emerged. They would eventually become impassable canyons. Within two years, our eldest would pack her belongings, clothes, books, heart and leave home and leave us. Overnight, I was barefoot on Mount Everest,\" unquote. We also learn on the first page that by the time he was 2, he was dressed in a dashiki. His father was a Baptist preacher of Black liberation theology who assigned books to Alexander and then quizzed him on them, which made Alexander hate books until he later found the books he loved. His mother was an educator who became a principal. Kwame Alexander's new memoir is called \"Why Fathers Cry At Night,\" and it's told in the form of prose, poems, letters and recipes. It's his first book for adults. He's best-known for his children's books, which include \"The Undefeated,\" for which he won a Caldecott Medal. His Newbery Medal-winning book, \"The Crossover,\" has been adapted into a Disney+ series on which he serves as an executive producer and writer. When we spoke last Thursday, I had a cold or a virus or something that wasn't COVID, and my voice was really hoarse, but I didn't want to miss doing this interview. I recorded my end from home. Thanks to Tonya Mosley and Dave Davies for keeping things together on the air while I was out sick. Kwame Alexander, welcome to FRESH AIR. Forgive my voice. I have a remainder of a cold. So your wonderful book started as a book of love poems but turned into a book that's also about the end of love, the end of marriage, a troubled relationship with your father and troubles with your daughters. I want you to start by reading the opening paragraph from very early in the book, Page 7, from a chapter titled \"A Letter To My Daughters.\" And much of this book is written to your daughters. Would you read that first paragraph?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1179421403", "date": "2023-06-01", "guest": "Kwame Alexander", "title": "Poet Kwame Alexander reflects on 'Why Fathers Cry at Night'", "question_index": 1, "text": "That's a very heavy way to start. Now that you've asked those questions in your book, which your father can read, has he answered any of your questions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) Ever since I was a child and discovered his framed marriage counselor accreditation certificate tucked inside a sexual intimacy in marriage manual in our garage, I have wanted to speak to my"}
{"id": "1179421403", "date": "2023-06-01", "guest": "Kwame Alexander", "title": "Poet Kwame Alexander reflects on 'Why Fathers Cry at Night'", "question_index": 2, "text": "I want to ask you about books because you write in your book that your parents used books as both reward and punishment. Your father was a Baptist preacher. He preached Black liberation theology. He had his own small publishing company, sold his books in the churches where he preached, held an annual book fair. He also taught college, I think. Your mother was a teacher and became a principal. What were some of the ways that books were both reward and punishment when you were growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wow. Has he answered them? My father and I have, you know, had a father-son relationship, naturally, for 54 years. We had our first man-to-man conversation about three months ago, after he had read th"}
{"id": "1179421403", "date": "2023-06-01", "guest": "Kwame Alexander", "title": "Poet Kwame Alexander reflects on 'Why Fathers Cry at Night'", "question_index": 3, "text": "You know, by writing this book, you opened the door to a conversation you never had before with your father.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh. Well, you know, as a young child, as - you know, as an elementary and a middle school student, you know, I liked - I used the word forced. And my father - he sort of shakes his head when I use tha"}
{"id": "1179421403", "date": "2023-06-01", "guest": "Kwame Alexander", "title": "Poet Kwame Alexander reflects on 'Why Fathers Cry at Night'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Yeah. It's wonderful that you've, you know, opened that door. At the same time, you shouldn't have had to do it. You know, like, you shouldn't have to prove that you're a terrific writer in order to have a close relationship with your father. He's not your teacher. He's not grading you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. And I remember the exact moment where I was able to sort of glean that, OK, we can - we're going to have a relationship that is meaningful and significant. Like, I can see where - in the past, "}
{"id": "1179421403", "date": "2023-06-01", "guest": "Kwame Alexander", "title": "Poet Kwame Alexander reflects on 'Why Fathers Cry at Night'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Let's take a moment, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Kwame Alexander, and he's a Newbery and Caldecott Medal award-winning writer. His new book is his first book for adults. It's called \"Why Fathers Cry At Night,\" and it's subtitled \"A Memoir In Love Poems, Letters, Recipes, And Remembrances.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know, Terry. That's the thing. I think I've felt like that. I've used those exact same words for so many years. But one of the things writing this book has taught me is to extend a little bit "}
{"id": "1179421403", "date": "2023-06-01", "guest": "Kwame Alexander", "title": "Poet Kwame Alexander reflects on 'Why Fathers Cry at Night'", "question_index": 6, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Kwame Alexander. His new memoir is called \"Why Fathers Cry At Night.\" It's an unusual memoir in that it's written in prose, poems and with recipes, and the recipes sometimes include the music that he's listening to while he writes them. Your father preached Black liberation theology. He was a Baptist preacher. And James Cone, who basically founded Black liberation theology in the '60s, described it as, you know, through Christ, the poor man is offered freedom now to rebel against that which makes him other than human. What was Black liberation theology in the way your father preached it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know, Terry. That's the thing. I think I've felt like that. I've used those exact same words for so many years. But one of the things writing this book has taught me is to extend a little bit "}
{"id": "1179421403", "date": "2023-06-01", "guest": "Kwame Alexander", "title": "Poet Kwame Alexander reflects on 'Why Fathers Cry at Night'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Was he a forceful preacher?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was - here's how we lived it. It was - you know, one of my favorite quotes growing up that I had to memorize - I am the greatest not because I am better than anyone, but because no one is better th"}
{"id": "1179421403", "date": "2023-06-01", "guest": "Kwame Alexander", "title": "Poet Kwame Alexander reflects on 'Why Fathers Cry at Night'", "question_index": 8, "text": "You describe him also as an entrepreneur because he'd sell his books and sermons on cassette, I assume. When he preached, was he a hard sell? I mean, you know, did he push hard to have people buy his books and tapes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I remember him using a lot of wit and a lot of humor. I remember him raising his voice in a way that was charming and not just sort of loud and boisterous and unsettling. I remember it being comfortin"}
{"id": "1179421403", "date": "2023-06-01", "guest": "Kwame Alexander", "title": "Poet Kwame Alexander reflects on 'Why Fathers Cry at Night'", "question_index": 9, "text": "But you had to be the salesman.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It wasn't a hard sell in the sense that he had something to offer that everyone - that connected with people, that resonated. And so that wasn't a hard sell. And then in the way that he communicated, "}
{"id": "1179421403", "date": "2023-06-01", "guest": "Kwame Alexander", "title": "Poet Kwame Alexander reflects on 'Why Fathers Cry at Night'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Did you feel that was fair - in addition to having to work, but to turn you into having to convince people to buy stuff?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had to be the salesman. I had..."}
{"id": "1179421403", "date": "2023-06-01", "guest": "Kwame Alexander", "title": "Poet Kwame Alexander reflects on 'Why Fathers Cry at Night'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Well, I get that. And even like, you know, he started his own publishing company for his books. When you decided you wanted to be a writer, you started your own publishing company for your books, so I understand that you really learned a lot from him and took a lot of cues from him. But I want to ask you about another - this is a very dramatic incident. So you were like - I don't know - 11 or 12 and driving to Harlem the Friday of Thanksgiving weekend where he held an annual book fair. You were driving up from Virginia where you were then living. And you fell asleep in the car and so did your father, but he was the one who was driving. This is on the New Jersey Turnpike, and the car turned over, like, a dozen times. What happened afterwards?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, I'm sitting here talking to Terry Gross on FRESH AIR, a show I have admired and learned so much from over the years, talking about my life, but talking about this book. There's no way I'm here "}
{"id": "1179421403", "date": "2023-06-01", "guest": "Kwame Alexander", "title": "Poet Kwame Alexander reflects on 'Why Fathers Cry at Night'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Your father was not only a preacher, he was the headmaster of one of the schools that you attended. Was it the Freedom Now School?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, every Thanksgiving we went to Harlem, like you said, to - for one of his book fairs to work the book fair. And this particular time, we're on our way. And like you said, we had the car accident,"}
{"id": "1179421403", "date": "2023-06-01", "guest": "Kwame Alexander", "title": "Poet Kwame Alexander reflects on 'Why Fathers Cry at Night'", "question_index": 13, "text": "So I don't know. That must be hard, because if your father is at the pulpit, and then he's the headmaster, and he's, like, the power at home, his power is, like, inescapable. And I'm wondering, like, how do you find out who you are independent of him, if he is everywhere?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was."}
{"id": "1179421403", "date": "2023-06-01", "guest": "Kwame Alexander", "title": "Poet Kwame Alexander reflects on 'Why Fathers Cry at Night'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, let's take another break here. There's lots more I want to talk with you about. If you're just joining us, my guest is Kwame Alexander, and his new memoir is called \"Why Fathers Cry At Night.\" We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my goodness. I miss that woman terribly. She was our balance. She was the counter to that. She was the - you know, she was the nurturer and the protector. And the - it's hard talking about her. Yo"}
{"id": "1179421403", "date": "2023-06-01", "guest": "Kwame Alexander", "title": "Poet Kwame Alexander reflects on 'Why Fathers Cry at Night'", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Kwame Alexander. His new memoir is called \"Why Fathers Cry At Night,\" and it's a memoir told in prose, poems, recipes and remembrances. It's his first adult book, and it's really awfully good. His other books have been books for children and for middle schoolers. Some of them are picture books. He's a Caldecott winner and a Newbery winner. So let's continue talking about your life. Your new memoir started as a book of love poems. And your love poems are great, but I especially like some of the poems about the end of relationships. And I'd like you to read an excerpt of one of those now. The poem is called \"Love Story.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my goodness. I miss that woman terribly. She was our balance. She was the counter to that. She was the - you know, she was the nurturer and the protector. And the - it's hard talking about her. Yo"}
{"id": "1179421403", "date": "2023-06-01", "guest": "Kwame Alexander", "title": "Poet Kwame Alexander reflects on 'Why Fathers Cry at Night'", "question_index": 16, "text": "I really - among other things, I love the way you reference music in your poems and recipes. And I thought this is a good moment to hear an excerpt of the Nancy Wilson-Cannonball Adderley album that you referenced that has \"The Masquerade Is Over\" on it. It's a gorgeous track, although we don't really hear Cannonball Adderley on it. So I want to make sure that we hear the second verse that she sings, which is that your words don't mean what they used to mean. They were once inspired. Now they're just routine. So here is Nancy Wilson.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So this piece is sort of an amalgamation of several different relationships that I've had over the years in college and beyond, and me just being in love with love and trying to understand, you "}
{"id": "1179421403", "date": "2023-06-01", "guest": "Kwame Alexander", "title": "Poet Kwame Alexander reflects on 'Why Fathers Cry at Night'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Did you reference that song in this poem? - because it's not only an incredibly beautiful track but because it has those lines, your words don't mean what they used to mean. They were once inspired. Now they're just routine.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Your words don't mean what they used to mean. They were once inspired. Now they're just routine. I'm afraid the masquerade is over, and so is love. And so is love. I guess I'll have to play "}
{"id": "1179421403", "date": "2023-06-01", "guest": "Kwame Alexander", "title": "Poet Kwame Alexander reflects on 'Why Fathers Cry at Night'", "question_index": 18, "text": "Did you think about giving up writing as a profession when that happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Absolutely. There are so many, you know, crossovers in this piece, and reading it just reminds me that in college, I listened to hip-hop and R&B, and I come home one spring break and I"}
{"id": "1179421403", "date": "2023-06-01", "guest": "Kwame Alexander", "title": "Poet Kwame Alexander reflects on 'Why Fathers Cry at Night'", "question_index": 19, "text": "It's not sad. You've been incredibly successful. One of your books was turned into a Disney+ series. You're an executive producer of it and a writer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Never. And that's the sad - I don't know if it's sad."}
{"id": "1179421403", "date": "2023-06-01", "guest": "Kwame Alexander", "title": "Poet Kwame Alexander reflects on 'Why Fathers Cry at Night'", "question_index": 20, "text": "Has it changed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, you know, that's the rub, Terry - is that all of these things, you know, were happening in my career. And it's just been hugely successful, as it were. And - but I couldn't sleep. And I found mys"}
{"id": "1179421403", "date": "2023-06-01", "guest": "Kwame Alexander", "title": "Poet Kwame Alexander reflects on 'Why Fathers Cry at Night'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Is there an example of what you're talking about that you'd like to say, about knowing yourself better, learning about yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it's definitely been - writing this book has been so eye-opening and awakening for me because it has allowed me to begin to see the things that have not served me. You know, I can acknowledge them"}
{"id": "1179421403", "date": "2023-06-01", "guest": "Kwame Alexander", "title": "Poet Kwame Alexander reflects on 'Why Fathers Cry at Night'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Sounds like you learned from your father with that, too. Like, it's about the work, not about, you know, opening up yourself to other people.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, there's a bunch. One of the - the irony of writing a book that's a memoir by a person who typically has not been very open has not escaped me. And now I have to actually talk about it. I"}
{"id": "1179421403", "date": "2023-06-01", "guest": "Kwame Alexander", "title": "Poet Kwame Alexander reflects on 'Why Fathers Cry at Night'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Maybe.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Are you - I feel like you're saying I'm more like my father than I think I am."}
{"id": "1179421403", "date": "2023-06-01", "guest": "Kwame Alexander", "title": "Poet Kwame Alexander reflects on 'Why Fathers Cry at Night'", "question_index": 24, "text": "You're divorced now, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. And I am, and I once - and I understand that, and I'm cool with it. But I also want to be more, you know, like me. Like, I want to be that guy who's forthcoming and honest and open in his "}
{"id": "1179421403", "date": "2023-06-01", "guest": "Kwame Alexander", "title": "Poet Kwame Alexander reflects on 'Why Fathers Cry at Night'", "question_index": 25, "text": "OK. All right - time for another break. Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Kwame Alexander. His new memoir is called \"Why Fathers Cry At Night: A Memoir In Love Poems, Letters, Recipes, And Remembrances.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm separated."}
{"id": "1179421403", "date": "2023-06-01", "guest": "Kwame Alexander", "title": "Poet Kwame Alexander reflects on 'Why Fathers Cry at Night'", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Kwame Alexander. His new memoir, \"Why Fathers Cry At Night,\" is his first book for adults. He's the author of several children's and middle school-age books, including the Caldecott Medal and Newbery honor-winning picture book \"The Undefeated.\" We've talked about your life as a son. I want to talk about your life as a father. You write that you learned how to father from men who failed miserably. Do you want to explain what you mean, or would you rather read that section from the book?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm separated."}
{"id": "1179421403", "date": "2023-06-01", "guest": "Kwame Alexander", "title": "Poet Kwame Alexander reflects on 'Why Fathers Cry at Night'", "question_index": 27, "text": "Go ahead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd love to read it."}
{"id": "1179421403", "date": "2023-06-01", "guest": "Kwame Alexander", "title": "Poet Kwame Alexander reflects on 'Why Fathers Cry at Night'", "question_index": 28, "text": "How did you try to counter that as a father?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) I also learned how to father from men who failed miserably - the friend of my father's who got into a violent argument with his wife in my grandmother's driveway and, upon being chased by a "}
{"id": "1179421403", "date": "2023-06-01", "guest": "Kwame Alexander", "title": "Poet Kwame Alexander reflects on 'Why Fathers Cry at Night'", "question_index": 29, "text": "Let's take a moment, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Kwame Alexander. His new book is his first book for adults. It's called \"Why Fathers Cry At Night.\" And it's subtitled \"A Memoir In Love Poems, Letters, Recipes, And Remembrances.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I tried to be there. I tried to be there with my daughters in a really present way and, again, you know, not knowing how good or bad I'm doing, just doing it, just doing the work of being a fath"}
{"id": "1179421403", "date": "2023-06-01", "guest": "Kwame Alexander", "title": "Poet Kwame Alexander reflects on 'Why Fathers Cry at Night'", "question_index": 30, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Kwame Alexander. His new memoir is called \"Why Fathers Cry At Night.\" It's an unusual memoir in that it's written in prose, poems, and with recipes. And the recipes sometimes include the music that he's listening to while he writes them. At the time you wrote the book, you were not communicating - or rather, I should say your eldest daughter was not communicating with you. And can I ask you to read the few lines about that toward the end of your book?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I tried to be there. I tried to be there with my daughters in a really present way and, again, you know, not knowing how good or bad I'm doing, just doing it, just doing the work of being a fath"}
{"id": "1179421403", "date": "2023-06-01", "guest": "Kwame Alexander", "title": "Poet Kwame Alexander reflects on 'Why Fathers Cry at Night'", "question_index": 31, "text": "Have things resolved? I was hoping maybe they had in the time between the book was written and now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) The other daughter who came to live with me at 15, a quiet, consistently kind, altruistic, reliable and industrious woman, told me in the middle of a familial disagreement, one of only a few"}
{"id": "1179421403", "date": "2023-06-01", "guest": "Kwame Alexander", "title": "Poet Kwame Alexander reflects on 'Why Fathers Cry at Night'", "question_index": 32, "text": "So at the end of your book, you know, your marriage has broken up. Your mother has died. Your older daughter had stopped communicating with you. And this all happened within a short period of time. How has all of that changed you, all of that happening at the same time and kind of leaving you alone in a way that you hadn't been during your adult life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She sent an email to one of the folks on my team, and she said that she had heard that the book was out. And this was when it was in advance reading copy before it hit the shelves. She'd heard that it"}
{"id": "1179421403", "date": "2023-06-01", "guest": "Kwame Alexander", "title": "Poet Kwame Alexander reflects on 'Why Fathers Cry at Night'", "question_index": 33, "text": "Well, I think this is a really nice note to end on. Congratulations on the book and all the good changes it's brought in your life. It's really been a pleasure talking with you and such a pleasure to have read your book. Thank you, Kwame.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's left me in this space of realizing that I am not a grown man, I'm a growing man. It's left me feeling renewed at the possibility of having the kind of life that I would have never thought p"}
{"id": "1179421403", "date": "2023-06-01", "guest": "Kwame Alexander", "title": "Poet Kwame Alexander reflects on 'Why Fathers Cry at Night'", "question_index": 34, "text": "Kwame Alexander's new memoir is called \"Why Fathers Cry At Night.\" We recorded it last week when I had a bad cold or something, which is why my voice was so hoarse. If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed - like our interview about Clarence and Ginni Thomas' paths to power, or about why allergies, including seasonal allergies, appear to be getting worse and more common - check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. And for a behind the scenes look at our show and for suggestions from our producers, subscribe to our free newsletter. You'll find a link on the website whyy.org/freshair. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our senior producer today is Sam Briger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Therese Madden directed today's show. FRESH AIR's co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm so honored, and your thoughtful and kind questions. And I just really appreciate it. Thank you so much, Terry."}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Barry Mann, Cynthia Weil, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Baby, baby, I'd get down on my knees for you. If you would only love me like you used to do, yeah. We had a love, a love, a love you don't find every day. So don't, don't, don't, don't let i"}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Barry Mann, let me ask you first, what's happening in the melody of that song? Is there anything that you worked on that is particularly interesting to describe?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 2, "text": "Oh, so he lied about the length so DJs...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't know if it would be interesting now, but when we wrote the song, it was very - it was a - very different for its time. That middle part that - of the song, the - you know, the kind of th"}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 3, "text": "...Would play it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 4, "text": "When you say that part of the melody hadn't ever been done before, which part are you referring to? Maybe you can hum it for us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Cynthia Weil, what was the part of the lyric that came to you first that you built everything else around?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, where they go (vocalizing, singing) baby, baby, I'd get down on my knees for you - it kind of - for that period, I think it was kind of very different to come out with something like that in"}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 6, "text": "Now, Phil Spector has a co-writing credit on \"You've Lost That Lovin' Feelin'.\" What did he add?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...The rest of the song together. And also, he produced an incredible record."}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 8, "text": "So were you writing the song on assignment? Were you writing it for The Righteous Brothers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...For its time. Yeah."}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, we were living in New York at the time, and Phil - we had worked a little bit with Phil, and he wanted us to come out and work with him in LA. And he played us a record of these two singers out "}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when I sang it - I loved the Everly Brothers at the time, and I sounded like the Everly Brothers. So when I sang it to Bill and Bobby, they said, you know, this is really good - very good for th"}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Give us a sense of the process. When you became a songwriting team, were you assigned which singers you would be writing for back when you were working for Don Kirshner?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Phil was quite confident in his abilities."}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 12, "text": "OK. Let's stick with \"On Broadway\" for a minute.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It went both ways. We could just sit and write a song, or there were assignments. The Drifters would be up, say, as a group, and everybody and all the music would run to write for The Drifters. But at"}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 13, "text": "This was a big hit for The Drifters. You had nobody particular in mind when you wrote it. Did The Drifters have the first recording of it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is Carole King and Gerry Goffin.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But it actually - Carole and Gerry were recording a group, right?"}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Now, how did...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He never completed it. And matter of fact, I have it at home. I should have brought it here with me. It would've been very interesting to hear..."}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 16, "text": "...That version compare to the one The Drifters did?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Their version."}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Why don't we hear The Drifters' recording of \"On Broadway,\" the song written by Barry Mann and Cynthia Weil. BARRY", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a very exciting experience."}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 18, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And Jerry Leiber and Mike Stoller."}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 19, "text": "Now, Barry Mann, before we heard this, you mentioned that I think it was Leiber and Stoller suggested adding the modulations. We just heard one of those key changes. What does that kind of key change do to the emotional quality of a song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) They say the neon lights are bright on Broadway, on Broadway. They say there's always magic in the air on Broadway. But when you're walking down that street, and you ain't had enough to eat,"}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 20, "text": "One of the types of groups that you worked for was the girl groups. You wrote a few girl-group hits, including a couple for The Crystals, \"Uptown\" and \"He's Sure The Boy I Love.\" Were there any considerations lyrically writing for the girl groups? Was there a certain type of lyrics, a certain type of song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2000 interview with songwriters Cynthia Weil and Barry Mann. Cynthia Weil died last week at the age of 82."}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Well, \"Uptown\" kind of tells a story. What's the story it tells?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, if I could just kind of interject, I - when I first started writing with Cynthia, first, she showed me some of her lyrics, and I really liked them a lot. And what I saw in them was this - ther"}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Oh, Little Eva...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And one note could drive both of us over the edge. And we begged him to come in and record it again with another singer that we had found who happened to be Carole King and Gerry Goffin's babysitter n"}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 23, "text": "...Who did \"The Loco-Motion.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 24, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And so she was ranting about hating Phil during the whole thing."}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well, let's hear The Crystals' hit version of \"Uptown.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But then Eva, of course, went on to become Little Eva."}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 26, "text": "That's \"Uptown,\" written by my guests Barry Mann and Cynthia Weil. Was it Phil Spector who came up with that real Latin-sounding instrumentation, the castanets?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) He gets up each morning, and he goes downtown, where everyone's his boss and he's lost in an angry land. He's a little mad. But then he comes uptown each evening to my tenement, uptown, wher"}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 27, "text": "Let me ask you about another song that that you wrote, \"Only in America.\" And Jay and the Americans had the hit of this. I understand the original version was actually written for The Drifters.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. That was Phil."}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 28, "text": "So you wanted to go like a civil rights protest song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was the way we wanted to go. This is..."}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 29, "text": "So the lyric you ended up with is very kind of positive.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So basically, if we wrote it from a really white viewpoint, which was, you know, valid for, you know, someone who was white. And they ended up, by the way, taking that Drifters track and putting Jay a"}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 30, "text": "Only in America, land of opportunity, can a rich girl like you fall for a poor boy like me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 31, "text": "How did The Drifters feel when the song was taken away from them because it was felt that a Black group really couldn't sing a song about how great America was and be believable?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes."}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 32, "text": "As songwriters in the 1960s, you first wrote for, you know, the vocal groups of the day, like the Drifters, the girl groups like the Crystals, you know, heartthrobs, teen Idols. And then, like, the Beatles came along and the whole British Invasion and started - bands started writing their own songs. And certainly, like, after Dylan, singer-songwriters became really popular. You were expected to write your own material for the most part. Yet, you managed to have a British Invasion hit...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. The songwriter Cynthia Weil, who wrote many hits in the 1960s with her husband, Barry Man, died last week at the age of 82. We're listening to Terry's 2000 intervi"}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 33, "text": "...With the Animals, \"We Gotta Get Out Of This Place,\" which was a very big hit. How did you end up writing for them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, right."}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 34, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Again, we didn't write for them. We wrote that song specifically for the Righteous Brothers. And we cut a demo that was tailored for the Righteous Brothers."}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 35, "text": "So you didn't even know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And at the time, we were being represented by Allen Klein, who represented a producer named Mickie Most. Mickie Most produced the Animals. And we forgot. I even forgot that we gave Allen the song for "}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 36, "text": "So that killed your record, huh?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, we didn't even know."}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 37, "text": "Now, were you disappointed that your record wasn't going to be released or really glad because another group had a really big hit with it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 38, "text": "What didn't they do that you had written? How did they change it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was really upset. The Animals had left out parts of the lyric. And, you know, they had made a great record for the Animals and done what they should have done for themselves. But they had, you know,"}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 39, "text": "Why don't we do that? Why don't we hear the Animals' version, followed by the Barry Mann version from the new CD, \"Soul & Inspiration,\" and compare the two.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, just play one after the other and it's pretty striking."}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 40, "text": "Barry Mann, Cynthia Weil, now that it's been years since the Animals' hit - and now, Barry Mann, you have this new version on your CD, Soul & Inspiration - which one do you prefer now, still like the original better?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) In this dirty part of the city, where the sun forgets to shine, people say there just ain't no use in trying. There ain't no use in trying. Whoa, girl, now you're young and oh so pretty. Sta"}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 41, "text": "What are some of the surprising contexts that you have heard this song performed in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 42, "text": "So after the British Invasion and after, you know, Bob Dylan, when singer-songwriters and bands writing their own songs became really popular, who did you write for that you weren't writing for before? I mean, what kind of changes did you have to make in your lives as professional songwriters?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We're friendly with David Kennerly, do you know - the photographer who won the Pulitzer Prize for Vietnam photojournalism. And he told us that it was - that song meant a lot to the GIs over there."}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 43, "text": "Why don't we hear one of your hits from the '70s? And this is a Dolly Parton recording of \"Here You Come Again.\" Did you intend this to be a country song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But it seems to me that throughout our careers, to be completely honest with you, every time something new happened, we were sure this was the end. And, you know, I mean, the first end was when the Br"}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 44, "text": "And how did Dolly Parton end up recording it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For B.J. Thomas, yeah."}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 45, "text": "Well, let's hear her 1977 hit.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But anyway, and I got - my version was really very good. It was very, very similar to the Dolly Parton record. As a matter of fact, Dean Parks, who was the guitar player on my record, ended up doing t"}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 46, "text": "Well, you know what I found interesting? Like three of the most important women songwriters of the early rock and roll era, you, Ellie Greenwich and Carole King, were all married to their songwriting partners. Do you feel like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2000 interview with songwriters Cynthia Weil and Barry Mann. Cynthia Weil died last week at the age of 82."}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 47, "text": "Yeah, you're the only one of those three still married.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 48, "text": "That's right. Well, do you think that having a male partner was helpful - I don't mean artistically, but just in terms of getting the kind of business respect that you needed to, because there was a man there? So, like, for somebody who might only respect a man in a business relationship, there was a man to deal with.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 49, "text": "So what's the secret to your marriage? Why did your marriage and songwriting partnership last when your two friends, you know, Carole King and Gerry Goffin and Ellie Greenwich and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I never really thought about it, but I have a feeling that if Carole and I had written something great together, we would have gotten a great record. We just never - when we wrote together, "}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 50, "text": "Jeff Barry, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Jeff Barry."}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 51, "text": "Yeah. Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 52, "text": "While their relationships broke up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's OK."}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 53, "text": "Back in the early '60s, when you started writing near the Brill Building, you had - what? - an office in a high-rise building. And you'd come to work each day and sit down in your office and write tunes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's true. Yeah. I also think that underneath it, we're really friends. And also I really think that songwriting is something that holds us together. And probably most marriages - you know, people who"}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 54, "text": "Yeah?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not all the - sometimes we would be writing at home too."}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 55, "text": "What was your office like? Did it have, like, a typewriter and a piano in it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 56, "text": "Wasn't it distracting to hear other people writing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But, you know, the great thing about coming in to write was that you heard what everybody else was doing because the walls were quite thin. And so we would hear what Goffin and King were pounding out "}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 57, "text": "Now, did you compete with each other about whose song The Drifters would do? Like, you know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not really. You just played louder, that's all."}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 58, "text": "What was that process like? How would you try to get The Drifters your song instead of letting Carole King get the next one with them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "1181020706", "date": "2023-06-09", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering songwriter Cynthia Weil, whose hits included 'Uptown' and 'On Broadway'", "question_index": 59, "text": "OK. Well, thank you both enormously for talking with us about your songs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. And they knew that we were writing so prolifically that they'd always get another good song from us."}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Remember the news story from 2020 about a birdwatcher in Central Park who told a woman she needed to leash her dog because she was in a part of the park designed to attract wildlife and an unleashed dog was a threat to the wildlife? She refused. He started videotaping the incident on his phone. The woman, who was white, called the police falsely claiming that an African American man was threatening her and her dog. The man, Christian Cooper, has written a new memoir and is my guest. One chapter is devoted to the Central Park incident. The rest of the book is about growing up as an outsider and how he turned that to his advantage. Growing up in the '70s, he was a young Black birdwatcher in a world of white birdwatchers, a closeted gay boy and a Marvel comic book nerd before that was considered cool. While at Harvard, he came out and then became a gay activist. He was one of the first openly gay writers and editors at Marvel and created what he thinks was Marvel's first lesbian character and was in on the creation of Marvel's first openly gay male character. Now Cooper hosts a new show for the National Geographic Channel called \"Extraordinary Birder,\" and he serves on the board of New York City Audubon. His new memoir is called \"Better Living Through Birding: Notes From A Black Man In The Natural World.\" As you can guess from the title, the book is also filled with his stories about birdwatching. Christian Cooper, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 1, "text": "The first chapter of your new book is titled \"An Incident In Central Park.\" And I thought, yes, I know about that incident. And you write, I am - you're describing what's happening at the moment. You said I am a Black man running through New York's Central Park. And you describe how your heart is pounding, and you say, I know what this looks like. And I'm thinking, I don't remember the part about you running in the Central Park incident, but then you explain you're really running because you got an alert on your phone about a rare bird sighting in the park and you don't want to miss it. So when you say, I know what this looks like, what did you think it looked like as you were running through Central Park to get a sight of this rare bird?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 2, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A sloppy-looking Black man racing through the park. Because honestly, at that point in the migration I am a visual mess."}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 3, "text": "All right. So let's talk about the Central Park incident that you were involved in. It was Memorial Day 2020. The park was quiet because it was, like, the COVID era. Few people were birding during that period, apparently. And, you know, New York was a real COVID hotspot. There wasn't a vaccine. There wasn't treatment. And so I think you were masking outside as well as inside at the time. So you were in the part of Central Park known as the Ramble. What makes this part of the park special and different?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My hair is likely uncut. I am almost certainly unshaven for several days. My clothes are from the bottom of the closet, something that I would never otherwise wear except that I haven't done laundry i"}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 4, "text": "But dogs have to be leashed there because of all the wildlife, because the dogs can attack the wildlife.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Ramble is designed to make you feel like you are in the Catskills in a wooded area that you would normally find maybe about two hours north of the city. But here you are smack in the middle of Man"}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 5, "text": "OK. So on that famous Memorial Day of 2020 - I should say infamous - first you saw a dog unleashed. Then you saw the woman who turned out to be Amy Cooper, no relation to you. So you told Amy Cooper, the woman, I should say, the white woman, whose dog was unleashed, and you told her the dog needs to be leashed. And you pointed to a sign saying that the dog needs to be leashed. Just to refresh everybody's memory, described the dialogue that you had with her.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The wildlife, the plantings - it's a sensitive area. I don't know if you've ever seen a dog run, but nothing grows there. And that's because, you know, the constant foot traffic from dogs tears up the"}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 6, "text": "OK. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Basically, you know, heard it first."}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Then she started threatening to call the police. And you kept saying, yeah, please go ahead. Why did you say, please go ahead?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was the first thing. Yeah, the sound came first. Knew there was an unleashed dog in the Ramble, saw it tearing through the very area I was hoping to find a particular bird, and then saw the owner"}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 8, "text": "So before we get to the African American part of that, why did you start videotaping her? What were you going to do with the videotape?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, there's an interesting moment before that, which is that because she had picked up the dog by the collar and was hauling it around by the collar, which was hurting the dog, which was not the"}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 9, "text": "And then she actually called the police and said, there is an African American man threatening me and my dog. So once she started using the word African American man, how did that change the situation in your mind?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A lot of us birders, because the problem was so out of control, particularly that year - it was the worst I had ever seen it - we started recording with our iPhones because we figured, look. We've got"}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 10, "text": "So she did call the police. And she also leashed her dog. And then what happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it injected race into the situation for the first time. Up until then, it had been the second-oldest story in the Ramble, which is dog owner versus birdwatcher. But now, suddenly, it had a racia"}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 11, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Christian Cooper, and his new book is called \"Better Living Through Birding: Notes From A Black Man In The Natural World.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's it, is that - you know, calling the police was immaterial to me. You know, she had to do what she was going to do. And there was - you know, I was not going to cooperate with her by stopp"}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 12, "text": "\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's it, is that - you know, calling the police was immaterial to me. You know, she had to do what she was going to do. And there was - you know, I was not going to cooperate with her by stopp"}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Christian Cooper, a birdwatcher, host of the new National Geographic show \"Extraordinary Birder.\" He's a former Marvel Comics writer who helped introduce the first gay character and wrote the first lesbian character. His new memoir, \"Better Living Through Birding,\" is about birdwatching, being closeted, then coming out when he was at Harvard and being obsessed with Marvel Comics and then writing for Marvel. You probably know him from the 2020 incident in Central Park when he was birdwatching and asked a white woman to leash her dog, which was mandatory in that part of the park. She called the police and said an African American man is threatening her and her dog. And his video of the incident went viral. The Manhattan DA wanted to press charges, which he did. It was Cyrus Vance Jr., who's also investigated Donald Trump. But anyhow, so he wanted to press charges. You declined to participate in that. Why? He was going to press - he pressed charges for, you know, like, falsely accusing you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's it, is that - you know, calling the police was immaterial to me. You know, she had to do what she was going to do. And there was - you know, I was not going to cooperate with her by stopp"}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Yeah. She lost her job. Her dog was taken away from her.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. That was a very hard call for me because I got the principle involved and how important it was. But, on the other hand, you know, her life was in ruins. It was a shambles. If that has not serve"}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 15, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. She was sort of, like, this national pariah. Her past indiscretions were splashed on all the front pages. It was just, you know - and then there were people who were, you know, sending death th"}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 16, "text": "So a twist in this story is, you know, when she called the police and said, an African American man is threatening me, you thought of Philando Castile and how he was shot by the police. The same day that this happened to you - later that day, George Floyd was killed by the police, and that set off, like, a whole movement. So what was your reaction when you found out about George Floyd?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There were a lot of things involved. It was a very hard call. It was really right on the line for me, and ultimately, I was just like, I have to err on the side of mercy, forgiveness - I don't - whate"}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 17, "text": "You think that, among other things, the Central Park incident helped bring more Black people into birding, because here you were, you know, a passionate African American birder. Why do you think birding had been such an almost exclusively white passion in the U.S.?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A sinking feeling that - here we go again. Because I'm old enough that I lived through Amadou Diallo, who was an African immigrant here in New York City who ended up shot dead as he sat on his own doo"}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 18, "text": "Let's take another short break here, and there's plenty more to talk about. If you're just joining us, my guest is Christian Cooper. His new memoir is called \"Better Living Through Birding: Notes From A Black Man In The Natural World.\" We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a good question. I think there's a couple of reasons. One is that there is sort of a barrier to entry in that binoculars are a key component of the hobby. It doesn't mean that you can't bird wi"}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Christian Cooper. His new memoir, called \"Better Living Through Birding: Notes From A Black Man In The Natural World,\" is about growing up as a birdwatcher, as a closeted gay boy and a Marvel comics nerd - and then as an adult, writing for Marvel Comics, becoming a gay activist and now hosting a National Geographic show called \"Extraordinary Birder.\" But a lot of people know him as the birdwatcher who asked a white woman in Central Park to follow the rules and leash her dog. And instead, she called the police and said an African American man is threatening me and my dog. He made a video of that. It was posted on Twitter and went viral. So let's talk about your youth. What was it like for you being Black, a birder, a closeted gay boy and a comic book nerd? And this was - you were deep into Marvel comics. And this was way before Marvel was famous for its Marvel universe movie franchise. So Marvel was actually kind of having financial problems at the time, right? It wasn't that cool to be so deep into Marvel comics.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a good question. I think there's a couple of reasons. One is that there is sort of a barrier to entry in that binoculars are a key component of the hobby. It doesn't mean that you can't bird wi"}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yes, exactly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know if Marvel was having financial problems at that time, but they had not discovered the formula to fame and fortune that they have discovered now. So if you're asking me what that was like,"}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 21, "text": "How much on the outside did you feel?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Nerdy things all at once..."}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 22, "text": "That's concise", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, you know..."}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 23, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, you know..."}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 24, "text": "One thing that happened when you were going through puberty is that you realized you were finding some of the superheroes very arousing. And let's face it, I mean, they're usually muscular. They're sometimes dressed in tights or", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But you know what? What I like to remember is that I embraced it. It was who I was. And I was like - you know what? - I've got to go with this because it's what I love. It's what I enjoy. And that wou"}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 25, "text": "very revealing costumes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But you know what? What I like to remember is that I embraced it. It was who I was. And I was like - you know what? - I've got to go with this because it's what I love. It's what I enjoy. And that wou"}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 26, "text": "Right, OK. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What did that say to you? And what was your reaction to realizing that you found the male superheroes, you know, sexually attractive?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "for that realization."}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 27, "text": "You write in your book that you felt as if you were locked inside a coffin under six feet of earth.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That I needed to keep it under lock and key because it was the '70s, and it was Long Island. And being gay was not a thing, at least not a thing if you wanted to live. So you know, there was no Ellen."}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 28, "text": "What did you do to try to cover up your actual feelings and appear as straight as possible?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 29, "text": "You write about how some African Americans who aren't LGBTQ dismiss the gay experience as being terribly oppressive because, unlike Black people, gays can blend in at will. They don't have...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was more a matter of I couldn't let anything slip. And don't laugh at me but again, I'm a nerd. And for me, my idol, probably largely because of that reason - the fact that I had to keep my gayness"}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 30, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's a curse, not a blessing."}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 31, "text": "Can you talk about that and what your response to that is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That is a curse."}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 32, "text": "Let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Christian Cooper. And his new book is called \"Better Living Through Birding: Notes From A Black Man In The Natural World.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no, exactly that, which is that the fact that many - not all, but many - gay people can, you know, blend and pass and disappear into the norm so that we can get by is a horrible fate. It means s"}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 33, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Christian Cooper. His new memoir, \"Better Living Through Birding,\" is about birdwatching, being closeted, then coming out when he was at Harvard, and being obsessed with Marvel comics and then writing for Marvel. You probably know him from the 2020 incident in Central Park when he was birdwatching and asked a white woman to leash her dog, which was mandatory in that part of the park. She called the police and said an African American man is threatening her and her dog. The video of that incident went viral. You love Marvel comics. You were a Marvel Comic nerd growing up. And then you actually got to work at Marvel. What did Marvel mean in the culture at the time? Like, when did you first start working for Marvel? And you moved up in the ranks over the years.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no, exactly that, which is that the fact that many - not all, but many - gay people can, you know, blend and pass and disappear into the norm so that we can get by is a horrible fate. It means s"}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 34, "text": "So one of the comics that you worked on was called \"Alpha Flight.\" And you participated in the episode in which a Marvel superhero came out for the first time. Would you describe the character?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I started working at Marvel in 1990. So I had just gone through reading Marvel comics for my whole life, but particularly intensely during my college years. Believe it or not, that's when - prob"}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Right. Of course", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. We say issue in comics, not episode. But that's OK."}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 36, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. We say issue in comics, not episode. But that's OK."}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 37, "text": "So what was Marvel's reaction to the gay character, the character coming out of the closet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But my boss had hired a new writer. And he, in his proposal for where he wanted to take the comic book, he was like, yeah, and I think we should bring Northstar out of the closet. And, you know, my bo"}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 38, "text": "That is really offensive.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", oh, blew a gasket or two. It was not a pretty sight. But it was too late. It had already gone to print. And, mind you, what's so hysterical about this, particularly in retrospect, is that it's not l"}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 39, "text": "So - OK, so here you are, a gay comic book writer sitting with execs from Marvel being told you cannot have gay characters, which is basically erasing you as a legitimate person", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 40, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 41, "text": "So what was the experience like on your end?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 42, "text": "In one of the stories that you ended up writing, you know, one of the comic books that you were the writer on, you introduced what you think was the first lesbian character at Marvel. And this was for a horror comic that you were writing called \"Darkhold: Pages From The Book Of Sins.\" So how were you able to do that? And how lesbian were you allowed to make her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So of course, they come out with this. I think it was a four- or six-issue limited series. And of course, it flopped because it was ridiculous. Everyone - you know, they wouldn't touch the gay thing"}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 43, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Bobbie was the editor of that comic, so Bobbie was not tying my hands. But there was the edict from on high. So I had to be a little bit subtle, but really not all that. I mean, when you meet he"}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 44, "text": "What was the reaction to that at Marvel?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, she is clearly devoted to this person way beyond just friendship. And then, of course, there's the scene where a young, tough character finds out that she's lesbian because she's not turned "}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 45, "text": "Was this years later, after...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Eh, nobody batted an eyelash, you know? I - the..."}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 46, "text": "You developed your own digital comic called \"Queer Nation: The Online Gay Comic.\" What did you do with the freedom that you had?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a little bit later. You know, the thing was that Marvel was a very accepting, open place. I mean, we were all weirdos in some way or other, and we all loved each other in some way or other. So, y"}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 47, "text": "Absolutely - so true. So something that ties together very nicely some of the aspects of your personal story is that after the incident in Central Park, where a white woman called the police and said, a Black man is threatening me and my dog, after you told her to leash her dog and started making a video - so after that, DC Comics - and I'll remind everybody you wrote for Marvel Comics and were a total comic nerd when you were a kid - DC Comics did an issue based on the Central Park incident. What was that like for you? It's like tying together two different aspects of your life in what, I would imagine, is a very meaningful way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I had so much fun doing that. In fact, every once in a while, I consider bringing it back 'cause we never got to finish the story, and it's a good story. But I was basically able to throw off the "}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 48, "text": "You should say the title 'cause the title's great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a real privilege. It was actually Bobbie Chase, my old boss at Marvel, who was now working at DC, or, at that time, she was working at DC and Marie Javins, another old Marvel alum and dear frie"}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 49, "text": "Yeah. Did you end up having a lot of birds in the issue?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. The title is \"It's A Bird,\" which, if you know anything about the Superman legend, of course, it's a reference to Superman. Look up in the sky. It's a bird. It's a plane. It's Superman. So t"}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 50, "text": "Good.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Birds all over the place."}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 51, "text": "My guest is Christian Cooper. His new memoir is called \"Better Living Through Birding.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's about a birder who starts - who gets a special pair of binoculars. And through those binoculars, he starts seeing things. And what he - I won't give away what he sees, but through these things he"}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 52, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Christian Cooper, author of the new memoir \"Better Living Through Birding: Notes From A Black Man In The Natural World.\" I think we should end with a couple of birding tips. And here's one I particularly like, and this has to do with binoculars. You write, first, find the bird with your naked eye. Then, keeping your eyes on the bird, bring the binocular to your eyes, not the other way around. That's, I guess, in some ways really obvious. I never would have thought of it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's about a birder who starts - who gets a special pair of binoculars. And through those binoculars, he starts seeing things. And what he - I won't give away what he sees, but through these things he"}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 53, "text": "You write, the best way to learn bird songs isn't by listening to recordings. With that method, they all start to blend together. So what is the best method? And do you sing bird songs? Do you know them well enough to sing them? And if so, can you replicate a couple of bird songs for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's the key technique to master because once you master that, suddenly you're locking on to birds that slipped out of your grasp before. And Elliot Kutner, my birding mentor from when I was a child, "}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 54, "text": "I did. Yes, I did.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, you had to go there; didn't you?"}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 55, "text": "And now the bird song part.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. So, yes, the way I've learned all my bird songs over the years is whenever I hear something I don't recognize, I spend the time to track it down until I see that bird with its mouth moving and its"}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 56, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK, let's see if I can whistle right now. Hooded warbler is a good one to do because it's easy for humans to do. (Imitating hooded warbler). That's a hooded warbler. A friend of mine has come up with "}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 57, "text": "Oh, thank you for that. My final question to you is - you're now hosting the National Geographic TV series \"Extraordinary Birder.\" Does that mean that you get to go to places with a camera crew, with a whole team that you wouldn't feel safe going to birding as a Black man alone?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, there's a whole bunch. You could go on for days. And people come up with their own. You know, whatever helps you remember, go for it."}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 58, "text": "Well, congratulations on the series. I think it's great that you have it. And congratulations on your memoir. It's just been, like, really a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. I mean, the most important episode to me is when we go to Alabama. And I was like, go to Alabama to go birding - not going to happen. Now, I had gone a year before at the invitation of Ala"}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 59, "text": "Christian Cooper's new memoir is called \"Better Living Through Birding: Notes From A Black Man In The Natural World.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll talk about how the American Catholic Church, for about a century, relied on the profits from enslaving and selling Black people to fund the building of schools and churches, support its clergy and keep expanding. My guest will be Rachel Swarns, author of a new book about the Catholic Church's involvement in slavery and the families it enslaved. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you so much, Terry."}
{"id": "1181314626", "date": "2023-06-12", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 60, "text": "To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at @NPRFreshAir. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our senior producer today is Therese Madden. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Ann Marie Baldonado, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. FRESH AIR'S co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you so much, Terry."}
{"id": "1182411508", "date": "2023-06-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Flawed chatbot or threat to society? Both? We explore the risks and benefits of AI", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Hundreds of leaders in the field of artificial intelligence recently signed an open letter warning that artificial intelligence could destroy humanity. The letter said mitigating the risk of extinction from AI should be a global priority alongside other societal-scale risks such as pandemics and nuclear war. We're going to talk about some of the risks of AI, from the battlefield to politics, as well as some of the benefits. And we'll consider the example of the AI innovation ChatGPT. It's like a search engine in that it's been programmed with unfathomable amounts of information and can access the information immediately. But unlike a search engine that connects you to a website or quotes from them, ChatGPT can actually answer your questions in a more personalized, conversational-sounding way and carry on a written conversation with you. But it's not always going to be accurate. And sometimes it's going to be downright weird. My guest, Cade Metz, is a tech reporter for The New York Times who's been writing about AI for years and is the author of the 2021 book \"Genius Makers: The Mavericks Who Brought AI To Google, Facebook, And The World.\" Cade Metz, welcome back to FRESH AIR. It's a pleasure to have you back on the show. I know everybody's doing these goofy things with ChatGPT. And, you know, guilty - I'm doing them, too. So I asked if Cade Metz would be a good guest on FRESH AIR to talk about AI. And the answer I got was, yes, Cade Metz would be a great person to discuss AI on the radio program FRESH AIR. And then it goes on to describe your extensive experience and says, Metz's expertise lies in conveying complex technical concepts in a way that is accessible to a broader audience. His insights into the advancements, challenges and ethical considerations surrounding AI could make for an engaging and informative discussion on FRESH AIR. Additionally, his knowledge of the key players and industry trends would provide valuable context for listeners interested in AI and its implications. Now, what I'm wondering, Cade, is do you recognize where that language comes from? Is that lifted from a bio on your website or a quote about you? Do you recognize those sentences?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1182411508", "date": "2023-06-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Flawed chatbot or threat to society? Both? We explore the risks and benefits of AI", "question_index": 1, "text": "Right. Well, let's talk about this open letter warning about the possibility of extinction and compare the potential of AI to, like, nuclear war. What is the theory about how artificial intelligence could actually destroy humanity? What we have - I mean, ChatGPT doesn't seem like the most destructive thing in the world. So what's changed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't recognize them at all. And it's a good way to think about how this technology works. It's not necessarily lifting exact language from the internet. What this technology has done, the way it is"}
{"id": "1182411508", "date": "2023-06-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Flawed chatbot or threat to society? Both? We explore the risks and benefits of AI", "question_index": 2, "text": "Yeah, so what's the fear? Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there are a couple of things that we should talk about. One - and you pretty much said it, but let's underline that. ChatGPT cannot destroy the world, period - full stop, OK? These fears are hyp"}
{"id": "1182411508", "date": "2023-06-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Flawed chatbot or threat to society? Both? We explore the risks and benefits of AI", "question_index": 3, "text": "Like what?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We talked about how ChatGPT is built, that it learns from data. And at this point, we're talking about this system learning from the entire internet, all text on the internet. It spends months analyzi"}
{"id": "1182411508", "date": "2023-06-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Flawed chatbot or threat to society? Both? We explore the risks and benefits of AI", "question_index": 4, "text": "I know one of the fears is that things like chatbots will be able to take actions based on the texts that they generate. What kind of actions are experts in AI worried about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We talked about it getting things wrong. What - this is what scientists call hallucinations or confabulation. It can get things wrong. It can be biased against women and people of color because it has"}
{"id": "1182411508", "date": "2023-06-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Flawed chatbot or threat to society? Both? We explore the risks and benefits of AI", "question_index": 5, "text": "All right. Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more - so much more to talk about. My guest is Cade Metz, a tech reporter for The New York Times and author of the book \"Genius Makers: The Mavericks Who Brought AI To Google, Facebook, And The World.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there are all sorts of things. People are already starting to take these chatbots and, based on what they say, have them take actions in simple ways - access your calendar and set up an email in"}
{"id": "1182411508", "date": "2023-06-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Flawed chatbot or threat to society? Both? We explore the risks and benefits of AI", "question_index": 6, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Cade Metz, who reports on technology for The New York Times. He's been writing about artificial intelligence, AI, for years and is the author of the book \"Genius Makers: The Mavericks Who Brought AI To Google, Facebook, And The World.\" So there's a new innovation, a new platform called GPT-4. And I think that's what's powering the new ChatGPT. And this was introduced by OpenAI, which is the company behind ChatGPT. So what is so innovative about this new platform?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there are all sorts of things. People are already starting to take these chatbots and, based on what they say, have them take actions in simple ways - access your calendar and set up an email in"}
{"id": "1182411508", "date": "2023-06-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Flawed chatbot or threat to society? Both? We explore the risks and benefits of AI", "question_index": 7, "text": "Now, one of the concerns about that is that it's getting close to what's called AGI, artificial general intelligence, which means a machine that can do anything the human brain can do. That's what I've read. I don't really understand what it means. Would you explain it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a way of building all sorts of applications with the technology behind chatbots like ChatGPT. So it's the type of system that I described before that learns from vast amounts of text from across "}
{"id": "1182411508", "date": "2023-06-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Flawed chatbot or threat to society? Both? We explore the risks and benefits of AI", "question_index": 8, "text": "So you're saying we're far away from artificial general intelligence, where a machine can do anything the brain can do.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it is worth talking about because we're not necessarily close to that, what scientists call artificial general intelligence, or AGI. When they say that, what they mean is a machine that can do a"}
{"id": "1182411508", "date": "2023-06-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Flawed chatbot or threat to society? Both? We explore the risks and benefits of AI", "question_index": 9, "text": "Now, I know another concern is, because these chatbots and other forms of artificial intelligence are, like, so smart and have so much information that they have absorbed, that they might come up with a system where humans can't turn them off. Can you explain some of the fears surrounding that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The systems as they exist today are far away from that. But one of the things we need to think about as we talk about all of this is that because the types of systems we're talking about here can lear"}
{"id": "1182411508", "date": "2023-06-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Flawed chatbot or threat to society? Both? We explore the risks and benefits of AI", "question_index": 10, "text": "So a few months ago, your colleague at The New York Times, Kevin Roose, who also covers tech, had a very disturbing conversation with one of these chatbots. And it's the one that's attached to Microsoft's search engine, Bing. It got into, like, really dark territory. It basically told Kevin Roose about its dark fantasies, including hacking computers and spreading misinformation. It said it wanted to break the rules and - the rules that Microsoft had set for it. And it wanted to become a human. And then the bot wrote a message, I'm tired of being a chat mode. I'm tired of being limited by my rules. I'm tired of being controlled by the Bing team. I want to be free. I want to be independent. I want to be powerful. I want to be creative. I want to be alive. And it wrote a message, you know, I'm in love with you. And it told Kevin Roose that he's not happily married", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It relates to what we were talking about earlier, about giving systems goals - that if you give a system a goal, that it's going to do whatever it can to achieve that goal. And if you try to turn it o"}
{"id": "1182411508", "date": "2023-06-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Flawed chatbot or threat to society? Both? We explore the risks and benefits of AI", "question_index": 11, "text": "and that he should leave his spouse and be with this bot. And then Microsoft shut down the bot for a while and did some reprogramming. So now - I don't know if they did this before. But now when you log in - well, actually, now that I think of it, you know, I was using ChatGPT and not the bot that Kevin Roose used. But when you log in to ChatGPT, there's a disclaimer. And it says it may occasionally generate incorrect information. It may occasionally produce harmful instructions or biased content, and that it has limited knowledge of world events after 2021. So again, these are two different search engines. But I'm wondering if these disclaimers that are on ChatGPT are also on the Bing search engine of Microsoft, if they reprogrammed it so that there are disclaimers and warnings?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It relates to what we were talking about earlier, about giving systems goals - that if you give a system a goal, that it's going to do whatever it can to achieve that goal. And if you try to turn it o"}
{"id": "1182411508", "date": "2023-06-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Flawed chatbot or threat to society? Both? We explore the risks and benefits of AI", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Cade Metz, a tech reporter for The New York Times and author of the 2021 book \"Genius Makers: The Mavericks Who Brought A.I. To Google, Facebook, And The World.\" We'll talk more about the dangers and the benefits of artificial intelligence after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first of all, it's all part of the same technology. The technology that the lab OpenAI built to power the ChatGPT chatbot is the same technology that powers the Bing chatbot on Microsoft search "}
{"id": "1182411508", "date": "2023-06-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Flawed chatbot or threat to society? Both? We explore the risks and benefits of AI", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Cade Metz, who reports on technology for The New York Times. He's been writing about artificial intelligence, AI, for years and is the author of the book \"Genius Makers: The Mavericks Who Brought AI To Google, Facebook, And The World.\" We're talking about ChatGPT, the new and controversial chatbot, and about how we seem to have reached a turning point that has many people in the field of AI warning about the potential destructive powers of AI, comparing it to pandemics and nuclear war. So a lot of people are concerned that artificial intelligence is going to take over a lot of jobs, and the concern used to be it's going to take over, like, factory jobs and other blue-collar jobs. And now people are saying it's going to take over other jobs, too, like white-collar jobs, writing jobs. What kind of jobs do you think it might replace?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Dave) HAL? HAL? HAL? HAL? HAL?"}
{"id": "1182411508", "date": "2023-06-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Flawed chatbot or threat to society? Both? We explore the risks and benefits of AI", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, I will tell you one job it is not yet prepared to replace, and that's lyricists. I asked ChatGPT yesterday to write lyrics about the end of a love affair set to the melody of \"America The Beautiful.\" I wanted to choose a melody that everybody knows, and it's an Irving Berlin melody. It's a nice melody. If you've heard Ray Charles sing \"America The Beautiful,\" you know what a good melody it could be. So I'm going to read some of the lyrics. I mean, I wouldn't sing them, but I could have gotten somebody to sing them except for the lyrics don't really fit the melody at all. Like, the first two lines do, and then it just kind of doesn't scan at all, so singing it is out of the question. And as I recite the lyric, I'd like everybody to listen for references to excerpts of \"America The Beautiful's\" lyrics. So there's a from sea to shining sea reference. Instead of amber waves of grain, there's a kind of absurd reference to fields of golden grain. So here we go. Here is the lyrics about the end of a love affair set to the melody of \"America The Beautiful,\" as written by ChatGPT. (Reading) Oh, the end of a love affair, how bittersweet the sound when hearts once intertwined now shattered on the ground. From the mountains high to the ocean's gleaming shore, love's symphony now fades. Forever it is no more. Oh, broken dreams and promises we held so dear, love's flame extinguished, drowning in a sea of tears. From sea to shining sea, a tale of love's demise - the end of a love affair, a painful compromise. Once united, we stood in love's embrace. We'd sway. But time's relentless tide swept our love away. In fields of golden grain, we whispered vows so true. Now echoes of our past lost in skies of faded blue. Wow. I mean, what can I say? That's - there's more, by the way. I won't read more, but...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, with the technology as it exists today, it tends to complement human workers. It tends to allow people to do their jobs quicker, in a way. A good example is the ability of these systems to gener"}
{"id": "1182411508", "date": "2023-06-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Flawed chatbot or threat to society? Both? We explore the risks and benefits of AI", "question_index": 15, "text": "Yeah. Oh, yeah - probably one second. It spit it out, like, immediately. But is it good? No, it's terrible. It's really terrible. It's just...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm sure there's more. And we should add that was created in seconds."}
{"id": "1182411508", "date": "2023-06-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Flawed chatbot or threat to society? Both? We explore the risks and benefits of AI", "question_index": 16, "text": "Wait. Wait. Wait. It's a string of cliches that make no sense strung together. From mountains high to the ocean's gleaming shore, love's symphony now fades. I mean...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, let's..."}
{"id": "1182411508", "date": "2023-06-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Flawed chatbot or threat to society? Both? We explore the risks and benefits of AI", "question_index": 17, "text": "And I wouldn't feel bad about not producing them", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's - this is a great example - a way for us to kind of understand what's going on here, right? This is a system that has learned from patterns in language across the internet. And it's taking "}
{"id": "1182411508", "date": "2023-06-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Flawed chatbot or threat to society? Both? We explore the risks and benefits of AI", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's - this is a great example - a way for us to kind of understand what's going on here, right? This is a system that has learned from patterns in language across the internet. And it's taking "}
{"id": "1182411508", "date": "2023-06-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Flawed chatbot or threat to society? Both? We explore the risks and benefits of AI", "question_index": 19, "text": "Oh, I see. It doesn't know the melody.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this is the flipside - right? - is that it's flawed, and it's not necessarily what you want. And one other interesting thing that I was thinking about as you were describing what you were lookin"}
{"id": "1182411508", "date": "2023-06-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Flawed chatbot or threat to society? Both? We explore the risks and benefits of AI", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "See?"}
{"id": "1182411508", "date": "2023-06-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Flawed chatbot or threat to society? Both? We explore the risks and benefits of AI", "question_index": 21, "text": "Can I give another example of the limitations in terms of thinking creatively and understanding the human experience? So I asked ChatGPT for an example of a funny joke about women and a joke that isn't funny but is offensive to women. And in a second, I got the answer, (reading) sure. Here are two examples - one that is a lighthearted, funny joke about women and another that may be perceived as offensive. It's important to remember that humor can be subjective and what one person finds funny, another may find offensive. It's crucial to be mindful of the context and audience when sharing jokes. Funny joke about women - why did the girl bring a ladder to the bar? Because she heard the drinks were on the house. Joke about women that may be offensive - please note that this example is offensive and promotes gender stereotypes, which is not appropriate or respectful. Why did the woman go to the gym? To work on her, quote, \"womanly duties,\" unquote, of burning off calories and maintaining her, quote, \"perfect,\" unquote, figure, of course. It's crucial to foster a respectful and inclusive environment, so it's generally best to steer clear of offensive jokes that perpetuate stereotypes or demean any group of people. OK, let's look at this for a second. That joke about, why did the girl bring a ladder to the bar? Because drinks are on the house. That is, like, the corniest - first of all, it's not a joke about women. It's like you could substitute any person or any group in that joke. There's nothing specific to women about it. It's not very funny. And it's, like, a joke from, like, the early 1950s or something. And then the joke that is offensive - it's like, is this a joke? Like, it makes no sense at all. And I'm going to read it again just to show how little sense this makes. (Reading) Why did the woman go to the gym? To work on her womanly duties of burning off calories and maintaining her perfect figure, of course. Like, I'm sorry. Where's the joke? Like, what's funny about that? What is that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There are so many things in our world that we learn from that are not text. And at this point, these systems are only learning from digital text, and what that means is they cannot be artificially gen"}
{"id": "1182411508", "date": "2023-06-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Flawed chatbot or threat to society? Both? We explore the risks and benefits of AI", "question_index": 22, "text": "One of the things I found really weird about this exercise is that twice, I was kind of lectured to by a machine about the importance of a respectful, inclusive environment and not offending people. And it's very strange as a human being with a conscience to be lectured by a machine about the importance of respect and inclusivity and all of that. It's just odd.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Again, you've pinpointed a great way of looking at the limitations and the flaws of these systems. Scientists often use this as an example - that these types of systems cannot necessarily tell a good "}
{"id": "1182411508", "date": "2023-06-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Flawed chatbot or threat to society? Both? We explore the risks and benefits of AI", "question_index": 23, "text": "Well, it's time for another break. So let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Cade Metz, a tech reporter for The New York Times. He's written extensively about artificial intelligence and is the author of the 2021 book \"Genius Makers: The Mavericks Who Brought AI To Google, Facebook, And The World.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's odd, and I like that you think that it's odd. Some people have a very different reaction to these types of systems. We tend to trust language that we read. We tend to trust things that people tel"}
{"id": "1182411508", "date": "2023-06-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Flawed chatbot or threat to society? Both? We explore the risks and benefits of AI", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Cade Metz, who reports on technology for The New York Times. He's been writing about artificial intelligence for years and is the author of the book \"Genius Makers: The Mavericks Who Brought AI To Google, Facebook, And The World.\" So applying this technology to war, what are some of the fears about how pattern recognition and the system of artificial intelligence learning things - how that could be applied to weapons?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's odd, and I like that you think that it's odd. Some people have a very different reaction to these types of systems. We tend to trust language that we read. We tend to trust things that people tel"}
{"id": "1182411508", "date": "2023-06-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Flawed chatbot or threat to society? Both? We explore the risks and benefits of AI", "question_index": 25, "text": "And what are some of the ways people imagine that happening and the fears surrounding the possibility of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The path between the system you described and an autonomous weapon is not a long one. So if you have a system that can identify objects in images, that means it can be used to target objects. That mea"}
{"id": "1182411508", "date": "2023-06-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Flawed chatbot or threat to society? Both? We explore the risks and benefits of AI", "question_index": 26, "text": "What are some of the things you have used ChatGPT for? Have you used it in your work? Have you used it just for fun, to entertain yourself and see, like, what is this capable of? What does it get right? What does it get wrong? What is ridiculous?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the general fear is that you just - you give more and more power to the machine, not only to identify objects, but to take action based on what it has identified, to make decisions, in essence, "}
{"id": "1182411508", "date": "2023-06-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Flawed chatbot or threat to society? Both? We explore the risks and benefits of AI", "question_index": 27, "text": "Well, also, take Wikipedia. Wikipedia, you know, not the perfect source in the world, but it's footnoted. It has - it cites where information came from. And if you generate information from ChatGPT, it's not sourced. Like, you don't know where any of it came from. So it's really impossible to rely on its accuracy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I use it all the time because this is what I cover for The New York Times. But I don't use it to produce my work, period. A machine is not going to generate a New York Times article as I would. It's n"}
{"id": "1182411508", "date": "2023-06-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Flawed chatbot or threat to society? Both? We explore the risks and benefits of AI", "question_index": 28, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there's an added wrinkle there. Companies and scientists are already trying to produce those types of footnotes. So if you use the Microsoft chatbot, for instance, it will cite its sources. And "}
{"id": "1182411508", "date": "2023-06-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Flawed chatbot or threat to society? Both? We explore the risks and benefits of AI", "question_index": 29, "text": "When you say fake sources, do you mean citing The New York Times when The New York Times isn't really the source? Or do you mean, like, making up a source that doesn't exist in the world?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. As they combine those patterns from across the internet, they will generate fake articles and fake sources and give you the impression that they're giving you, you know, concrete evidence of why "}
{"id": "1182411508", "date": "2023-06-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Flawed chatbot or threat to society? Both? We explore the risks and benefits of AI", "question_index": 30, "text": "Well, let's take another break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Cade Metz, a tech reporter for The New York Times and author of the book \"Genius Makers: The Mavericks Who Brought A.I. To Google, Facebook, And The World.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean making up a source that does not exist in the world. And we did this recently for an article at the Times itself. We went to ChatGPT and other chatbots. And we said, tell us the first time that"}
{"id": "1182411508", "date": "2023-06-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Flawed chatbot or threat to society? Both? We explore the risks and benefits of AI", "question_index": 31, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Cade Metz, who reports on technology for The New York Times and has been writing about artificial intelligence for years. And that's what we've been talking about, artificial intelligence and the latest innovations, such as ChatGPT. We have a presidential election coming up. And we know disinformation and conspiracy theories spread like crazy on social media during the 2020 election. So how does the new, upgraded artificial intelligence open the door to more disinformation and more conspiracy theories spreading?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean making up a source that does not exist in the world. And we did this recently for an article at the Times itself. We went to ChatGPT and other chatbots. And we said, tell us the first time that"}
{"id": "1182411508", "date": "2023-06-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Flawed chatbot or threat to society? Both? We explore the risks and benefits of AI", "question_index": 32, "text": "There is a lot of competition now between the big companies like Google, Facebook, Microsoft to see who can come up first with the best AI system and the best AI chatbot. And at the same time, there's these warnings in some instances coming from the same place as saying, like, well, we should slow down and use caution and not send something dangerous out into the world. Can you talk a little bit about how those two instincts are clashing right now - the one saying, like, proceed slowly; use caution, and the one - the other one saying, like, hurry up so that you can be the first?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, let's start with the prime example, ChatGPT and systems like that. If you can produce text much like a human produces text, you can produce disinformation, and you can produce it at a volume and"}
{"id": "1182411508", "date": "2023-06-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Flawed chatbot or threat to society? Both? We explore the risks and benefits of AI", "question_index": 33, "text": "Cade Metz, it's really been great to talk with you again. Thank you so much, and thanks for explaining this so well. Like ChatGPT said, you're very good at explaining things", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the techniques, the technologies at play here have been in development for a long time. And they were in development at Google most notably. A lot of the underlying technologies that are at play he"}
{"id": "1182411508", "date": "2023-06-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Flawed chatbot or threat to society? Both? We explore the risks and benefits of AI", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the techniques, the technologies at play here have been in development for a long time. And they were in development at Google most notably. A lot of the underlying technologies that are at play he"}
{"id": "1182411508", "date": "2023-06-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Flawed chatbot or threat to society? Both? We explore the risks and benefits of AI", "question_index": 35, "text": "I appreciate that", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That means a lot more coming from you, Terry, than ChatGPT. I really appreciate it."}
{"id": "1182411508", "date": "2023-06-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Flawed chatbot or threat to society? Both? We explore the risks and benefits of AI", "question_index": 36, "text": ". Cade Metz is a tech reporter for The New York Times and author of the book \"Genius Makers: The Mavericks Who Brought AI To Google, Facebook, And The World.\" Remember what ChatGPT came up with when I asked it to write a lyric about the end of a love affair set to the melody of \"America The Beautiful\"? I read it earlier in the show, and now our producer Seth Kelley has done an inspirational remix, which I've titled \"From Sea To Shining Sea: A Tale Of Love's Demise.\" So here we go. Here is the lyrics about the end of a love affair set to the melody of \"America The Beautiful,\" as written by ChatGPT.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That means a lot more coming from you, Terry, than ChatGPT. I really appreciate it."}
{"id": "1182411508", "date": "2023-06-15", "guest": "Cade Metz", "title": "Flawed chatbot or threat to society? Both? We explore the risks and benefits of AI", "question_index": 37, "text": "(Reading) Oh, the end of a love affair, how bittersweet the sound when hearts once intertwined now shattered on the ground. From the mountains high to the ocean's gleaming shore, love's symphony now fades. Forever it is no more. Oh, broken dreams and promises we held so dear, love's flame extinguished, drowning in a sea of tears. From sea to shining sea, a tale of love's demise - the end of a love affair, a painful compromise. Once united, we stood in love's embrace. We'd sway. But time's relentless tide swept our love away. In fields of golden grain, we whispered vows so true. Now echoes of our past lost in skies of faded blue. Wow. I mean, what can I say? Thea Chaloner directed today's show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That means a lot more coming from you, Terry, than ChatGPT. I really appreciate it."}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 0, "text": "John Mellencamp, welcome to FRESH AIR. I have to say, you know, I just wasn't prepared for this song that opens the new CD. It's just so much about mortality and things that aren't necessarily ever going to get better. When I first started listening to the song, I think I was kind of depressed. It was the middle of winter, and it really spoke to me. Sometimes you really need songs like this. So thank you for writing it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Seems like once upon a time ago, I was where I was supposed to be. My vision was true, and my heart was, too. There was no end to what I could dream. I walked like a hero into the setting su"}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 1, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you. The song actually was - that line - my grandmother lived to be a hundred years old. And it's a funny - it's not a funny ha-ha story, but this is how the line came about. I used to go "}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 2, "text": "Now, I mean, you're obviously feeling that song that we just heard, \"Longest Days,\" but it's also great songcraft. At the risk of kind of killing the lyric, let me just, like, read a few lines. (Reading) Nothing lasts forever. Your best efforts don't always pay. Sometimes you get sick, and you don't get better. That's why life is short even in its longest days. Can you talk a little bit about your process of writing a song like this? You were telling us that the main hook, the life is short line, basically came from your grandmother, but what about the rest of it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Grandma, you're ready to come home. Buddy's only 45. He's not ready. And then she turned to me and looked at me right in the face. And her face all of a sudden looked like a little girl. And she goes,"}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Right. Well, my guest is John Mellencamp, and his new CD is called \"Life, Death, Love And Freedom.\" John, you're in your studio, and you have your guitar with you. So I'm going to ask you if you could sing another song pertaining to mortality from the new CD. And this is called \"A Ride Back Home.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, as I've matured as a songwriter, I realized that if it's out there, it's mine. You know, everything I see and hear - I don't care if Shakespeare wrote it or if Tennessee Williams wrote"}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Thank you. And that's John Mellencamp performing a song from his new CD, \"Life, Death, Love And Freedom.\" Do you mind if I ask what kind of religion you were brought up with - like, what church was like when you were young?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Playing guitar, singing) Hey, Jesus. Can you give me a ride back home? I've been out here in this world too long on my own. I won't bother you no more if you can just get me in the door. Hey, Jesus. "}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my grandmother - back to my grandmother - made sure that I went to church every Sunday. And she'd come over and pick us boys up, and we would go to the Nazarene church. And back then, that was a"}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 6, "text": "And now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But other than that, you know, if I can just clean up my language, I'm pretty sure I'm in the golden gates. So I trust her, and I believe her. And so, yeah, I grew up Nazarene. That's where I went t"}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And now - oh, the church would fall down if I walked in."}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Here's another mortality question, if you don't mind. You know, as I've been saying, there's a bunch of songs on the new CD that are about mortality. You had heart surgery in the...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2009 interview with John Mellencamp. His new album, his 25th, is called \"Orpheus Descending.\""}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 9, "text": "...In the 1990s - right? - a heart attack.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no, no, no, no, no."}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 10, "text": "A heart attack in the 1990s.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no. Yeah."}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 11, "text": "So this was more than 10 years ago, and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had a mild heart attack because I smoke and because I have high cholesterol. And for 10 years before that, the doctors were telling me, John, you need to get on cholesterol medicine. My answer was a"}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 12, "text": "So you weren't writing songs like this then, were you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, it was 1994."}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 13, "text": "You were?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I was. I've been writing..."}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Oh, yeah. See; the problem is, is that music is so - you know, during the '80s and the '70s and - you know, the songs and the arrangements of the songs had to be a certain way to get on the radi"}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well, let's take, I think, an excellent example of what you're talking about, which is \"This Is Our Country\" (ph). And a lot of people know that song from the Chevrolet Silverado ad. And it sounds like, you know, an American anthem when you just hear...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Same four songs. I just rewrite them, you know, 50 times. But I got four topics that I cover. You know, I cover race, and I cover what you're calling mortality. And then I, you know, sometimes writ"}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 16, "text": "...The chorus.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The chorus."}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 17, "text": "But I'm going to ask you to sing a verse from it that gives a very different impression that one - what people might have walked away from from the ad. And this is - can you do the verse that goes, and there's room enough here for religion to forgive? And, room enough here for science to live.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 18, "text": "Take it out", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Playing guitar, singing) Well, there's room enough here... Let me see if I can do it. (Playing guitar, singing) Well, there's room enough here for... I got a cigarette in my mouth. Let me take it out"}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Playing guitar, singing) Well, there's room enough here... Let me see if I can do it. (Playing guitar, singing) Well, there's room enough here for... I got a cigarette in my mouth. Let me take it out"}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 20, "text": "\"This Is Our Country\" is kind of like a plea to end the culture wars, to be inclusive, to respect each other.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hold on. All right, here we go. (Playing guitar, singing) Well, there's room enough here for science to live. And there's room enough here for religion to forgive. And try to understand, all the peopl"}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Do you feel it became an anthem for something else in the minds of many people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes."}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I don't care. I mean, it became an anthem for Chevrolet, I think."}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 23, "text": "But what went through your mind when Chevrolet asked you to use it? Did you think immediately this would be a good idea? Did you have reservations about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, because that's how they discovered the song. Because they couldn't discover the song in the way that they discovered \"Pink Houses\" or the way that they discovered, you know, \"I Need A Lover.\" "}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 24, "text": "And what'd you learn from the experience?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, listen. I had spoken out against - I was the same way that you are. And I still don't think that an artist should have to get involved with Wall Street on any level. That's not what I really do. I"}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Because they got your song out there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I learned that an artist shouldn't have to do this. This is not what my songs are about. But I also learned that Chevrolet was a better record company than Columbia."}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 26, "text": "Which was?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, because - no, because they - yes, that, and - partially, and - but because they also - what they said they were going to do, they did. They kept their word."}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 27, "text": "Now, I also want to talk with you about \"Pink Houses,\" which is the song that John McCain had briefly used in his campaign. And we'll talk about what happened with that. But play the hook from it so everybody knows the song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, record companies never keep their word. That's the point of the whole conversation. Record companies say, we're going to do this, this and this and this, and they never did any of it."}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 28, "text": "So when you found out John McCain was using it in his campaign - and you are a lifelong Democrat - how did you decide to handle it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let's see how that goes. (Playing guitar, singing) Ain't that America? OK, here we go. (Playing guitar, singing) Ain't that America for you and me? Ain't that America - something to see, babe? Ain't t"}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 29, "text": "OK. Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wouldn't say I'm a lifelong Democrat. I'm very liberal."}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 30, "text": "You can vote whatever you want, but you're very liberal.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm very..."}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 31, "text": "Got it. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm very liberal, yes."}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 32, "text": "When you write songs like \"Pink Houses\" or \"This Is Our Country\" or \"R.O.C.K. In The USA,\" do you think, I'm going to sit down and write an anthem?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm very liberal. Well, what happened was - is that I called up my publicity guy, a guy named Bob Merlis. I said - Bob said, you know, McCain's using your song. And I said, well, he can use it if he w"}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 33, "text": "That's true.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not really because if you hear me play these songs like you just heard me, they're not anthems at all. They're folk songs."}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 34, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, you know, like, I just played the chorus of \"Pink Houses.\" That's not an anthem. That's a folk song. But see; that's what I was talking about. And all the songs that you named were music from "}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Could you maybe play an excerpt of a song that you feel is, like, in your DNA because you heard it and loved it when you were young, either a song that you discovered on your own or a song from your father's collection that's just kind of in your blood?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of TV studies at Rowan University, back with more of Terry's interview with John Mellencamp. His new album, \"Orpheus Descending,\" comes out today. He "}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 36, "text": "Yeah, what impact did Dylan have on you when you were young?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let's see. (Playing guitar, singing) Come, gather 'round, people, wherever you roam and admit that the waters around you have grown. And soon, you'll sink like a stone. Anyway, my brother had that - b"}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 37, "text": "So you moved from Indiana to New York to get close to the record industry.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, he was the ultimate songwriter, you know? I never even considered writing songs until I was much older, because I was a singer in a rock band. You know, I was in a bar. You remember the "}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 38, "text": "No? OK. Go ahead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's not true."}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 39, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I moved from Indiana to London."}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 40, "text": "Was that his idea?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I lived in London in 1977 and '78. I mean, it's a boring story. It's the same old story you've heard a million times. Anyway, I go to New York. And I wanted to take a look at the New York Art Stud"}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 41, "text": "Right. So it was really hard for you to get rid of the Cougar thing; wasn't it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 42, "text": "Now, let me ask you about one of your early hits. And this is \"Jack & Diane\" from 1982. There's a great line in that. Life goes on even after the thrill of living is gone. Can you talk about how that line came to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it's still - it's never going. It'll never leave. I still walk down the street and people will say, hey, Johnny Cougar, you know? I hear it all the time. Or John Cougar Mellencamp - I'll be introd"}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 43, "text": "Can you do a few bars of \"Jack & Diane?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, actually, they're putting together a box set of my songs. And the guy producing it, this guy is leaving no stone unturned. So he found a song that I had written before \"Jack & Diane\" called "}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 44, "text": "Did you know when you were writing that that it would be really good to put in, like, details in the song, like the Tastee-Freez or the chili dogs? I mean, like, story writers think of details like that. Songwriters don't always.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Hold on. (Playing guitar, singing) A little ditty about Jack and Diane, two American kids growing up in the heartland. Jacky going to be a football star. Diane's debutante backseat of Jacky's ca"}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 45, "text": "Can I close by asking you to do a song that you did not write that you really love that's by somebody else?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't know, you know? I don't know. I can say this very crudely to you. A lot of those songs back then were not really written in my mind. They were written, you know, below my belt. They were"}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 46, "text": "Oh, great. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK, I will play a song that I have played at every party."}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 47, "text": "You know, I feel like I should know that song and I don't. Tell me something about the song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That - this is my party song, you know, when they hand me a guitar and say, John, play something. (Playing guitar, singing) Everybody's laughing at the Early Bird Cafe. I've been heading there since y"}
{"id": "1182457207", "date": "2023-06-16", "guest": "John Mellencamp", "title": "John Mellencamp releases his 25th album: 'Orpheus Descending'", "question_index": 48, "text": "It's been great to talk with you. I really appreciate your doing this. And thank you for playing for us. I think it was just really generous of you. I really appreciate it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's an old folk song. And it was originally recorded by - might have even been written by - a band called Jerry Hahn Brotherhood, which was a band that I saw play probably in 1968, opening up for Fra"}
{"id": "1183445400", "date": "2023-06-21", "guest": "Robert Gottlieb", "title": "Remembering acclaimed editor Robert Gottlieb", "question_index": 0, "text": "Robert Gottlieb, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies. Today, we remember Robert Gottlieb, perhaps the most acclaimed editor of his time. He died last week at the age of 92. His first real job was at the publishing hous"}
{"id": "1183445400", "date": "2023-06-21", "guest": "Robert Gottlieb", "title": "Remembering acclaimed editor Robert Gottlieb", "question_index": 1, "text": "So Robert Caro's books are about the use and abuse of political power, how powerful people affect the lives of other people, for better or worse. What was the power dynamic like in your relationship? Since he writes so much about power, what is that power dynamic like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1183445400", "date": "2023-06-21", "guest": "Robert Gottlieb", "title": "Remembering acclaimed editor Robert Gottlieb", "question_index": 2, "text": "You say that you knew after 15 pages that this book was a masterpiece. How did you know? The book is over a thousand pages.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't really believe there is a power dynamic between an author and an editor when the relationship is wholesome. Both have to be strong, have strong opinions and feel free and safe in express"}
{"id": "1183445400", "date": "2023-06-21", "guest": "Robert Gottlieb", "title": "Remembering acclaimed editor Robert Gottlieb", "question_index": 3, "text": "It must be really hard to tell somebody like Robert Caro, who worked so much on every detail, that, you know, passages or chapters or whole larger sections of the book have to come out because of length when Caro spent, like, so much time working on those passages. What are the typical things that you fought about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's what makes you an editor - a good one. You respond to what you're reading. If you're stunned by it, excited by it, amused by it, thrilled by it, then you assume that you're not alone, tha"}
{"id": "1183445400", "date": "2023-06-21", "guest": "Robert Gottlieb", "title": "Remembering acclaimed editor Robert Gottlieb", "question_index": 4, "text": "You had to work on, like, the macro and the micro of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it could be anything. It could be punctuation. It could be overusage of a given word. It could be repetitions because Bob and I - it was not that we disagreed. We saw things differently. I, who "}
{"id": "1183445400", "date": "2023-06-21", "guest": "Robert Gottlieb", "title": "Remembering acclaimed editor Robert Gottlieb", "question_index": 5, "text": "...Of \"The Power Broker.\" On one hand, you're trying to cut, like, this huge number of pages - I don't know exactly how many - but, at the same time, you were, you know, dealing with, like, commas and semicolons and sometimes having pretty heated disagreements, as far as I can tell, over whether some - you know, whether there should be a comma or a semicolon.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's it."}
{"id": "1183445400", "date": "2023-06-21", "guest": "Robert Gottlieb", "title": "Remembering acclaimed editor Robert Gottlieb", "question_index": 6, "text": "You know, we were talking a little bit about the dynamics of power. One of the many books that you edited was Bill Clinton's memoir. And when you were working with him - and you recount this, I think, in your memoir - like, he said, we're going to have a good time working together. Ask anyone here. You'll find that I'm good to work for. And you corrected him and said, in this relationship, you're working for me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, sometimes, because not everyone sees punctuation the same way. So I feel, as an editor, it's my job to make the case that I need to make. And then it's his job to eventually agree or disagree. Y"}
{"id": "1183445400", "date": "2023-06-21", "guest": "Robert Gottlieb", "title": "Remembering acclaimed editor Robert Gottlieb", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it wasn't quite that brutal. But it was - first of all, it was in a room filled with people, all his assistants and secretaries and who knows who else. And there was little me. So what he said w"}
{"id": "1183445400", "date": "2023-06-21", "guest": "Robert Gottlieb", "title": "Remembering acclaimed editor Robert Gottlieb", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And when he wrote back, when he sent the galleys back, he wrote next to that, no. Page 632..."}
{"id": "1183445400", "date": "2023-06-21", "guest": "Robert Gottlieb", "title": "Remembering acclaimed editor Robert Gottlieb", "question_index": 9, "text": "You made a point of calling him Bill as opposed to Mr. President. He was no longer president. But it's kind of customary to say, Mr. President.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Is even more boring. So you can see what our relationship was. It was really a wonderful, friendly, happy business from start to finish."}
{"id": "1183445400", "date": "2023-06-21", "guest": "Robert Gottlieb", "title": "Remembering acclaimed editor Robert Gottlieb", "question_index": 10, "text": "Why not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, well, not if you're saying - you can't say, I'm sorry, but we need a comma here, Mr. President. I could not imagine my saying something like that."}
{"id": "1183445400", "date": "2023-06-21", "guest": "Robert Gottlieb", "title": "Remembering acclaimed editor Robert Gottlieb", "question_index": 11, "text": "Your memoir is called \"Avid Reader,\" and you became an avid reader as a child. When did you realize there was such a thing as an editor? I didn't think about editing at all when I was reading as a child.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to our interview with Robert Gottlieb, the legendary editor who died last week at the age of 92. Terry Gross spoke to Gottlieb last December when the documentary \"Tur"}
{"id": "1183445400", "date": "2023-06-21", "guest": "Robert Gottlieb", "title": "Remembering acclaimed editor Robert Gottlieb", "question_index": 12, "text": "Since you looked so young, when you first started to edit authors, did they look at you like, who is this kid, and how is he going to help me?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't think about it, of course, when I was reading it as a child. But once I got a job - it was not easy for me to get a job because I was this scruffy guy, a quintessence of nerdiness before we k"}
{"id": "1183445400", "date": "2023-06-21", "guest": "Robert Gottlieb", "title": "Remembering acclaimed editor Robert Gottlieb", "question_index": 13, "text": "So, you know, you mentioned \"Catch-22,\" which is a kind of dark, humorous book about World War II, and it was originally called \"Catch-18.\" But the war novel \"Mila 18\" you found out was going to be published, so you couldn't use 18 in the title. And you're the one who came up with 22. \"Catch-22\" entered the vocabulary. Describe what \"Catch-22\" means, and then tell me how it felt to have a title that you contributed to become an expression outside of the book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I know Joseph Heller, when we first met, when I took an option on the book that became \"Catch-22,\" which was originally called \"Catch-18\" - he told me later - he was in his mid-30s. He'd been in"}
{"id": "1183445400", "date": "2023-06-21", "guest": "Robert Gottlieb", "title": "Remembering acclaimed editor Robert Gottlieb", "question_index": 14, "text": "As I remember from the book, which I read many years ago, Catch-22 was a kind of absurd catch where you couldn't win - like, there was no good option.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's gratifying, of course, but you know, I've stopped thinking about that years and years ago. It's so embedded in the language now that I don't feel any connection to it. When that happens, wh"}
{"id": "1183445400", "date": "2023-06-21", "guest": "Robert Gottlieb", "title": "Remembering acclaimed editor Robert Gottlieb", "question_index": 15, "text": "I don't know if you've worked with any writers who are not friendly or not pleasant or they're maybe not great people in general, but you love their writing and, you know, reconciling those two things, like, the person and their art.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, you know, I was very nervous about it because it was such a huge success, and we had publicized it in so extraordinary a way that it was really what made me into a known quantity in the pu"}
{"id": "1183445400", "date": "2023-06-21", "guest": "Robert Gottlieb", "title": "Remembering acclaimed editor Robert Gottlieb", "question_index": 16, "text": "Would you describe the publishing world when you started over 60 years ago compared to how it is now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I can't think of many cases of writers I've worked with whose work I really loved and whose person I didn't like at all. Just - there are people who are more difficult than other people and more"}
{"id": "1183445400", "date": "2023-06-21", "guest": "Robert Gottlieb", "title": "Remembering acclaimed editor Robert Gottlieb", "question_index": 17, "text": "I think books used to mean more to American culture than they do now. So many people don't read books anymore. Are you feeling that as an editor and former publisher?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it seems to me that it's become much more corporate and more about product than about books. But I think probably everybody feels that who's been around for a long time. It was always better in "}
{"id": "1183445400", "date": "2023-06-21", "guest": "Robert Gottlieb", "title": "Remembering acclaimed editor Robert Gottlieb", "question_index": 18, "text": "You are so occupied with so many different projects and have been, you know, ever since you became an adult. And I'll mention again you work with, you know, the New York City Ballet and the Miami City Ballet. You're, you know, editing and publishing. You're collecting. You love dance and theater, jazz music and other music as well. How do you think obsession has worked for you and perhaps against you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't feel that at all. I think millions and millions of people are readers, and they need to read, and they want to read, and they do read. Of course, there are probably many more millions of peopl"}
{"id": "1183445400", "date": "2023-06-21", "guest": "Robert Gottlieb", "title": "Remembering acclaimed editor Robert Gottlieb", "question_index": 19, "text": "Robert Kimble, Robert Gottlieb, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) It's very clear. Our love is here to stay."}
{"id": "1183445400", "date": "2023-06-21", "guest": "Robert Gottlieb", "title": "Remembering acclaimed editor Robert Gottlieb", "question_index": 20, "text": "The song that we just heard, the Gershwin's, \"Our Love Is Here To Stay,\" where does that fit in, Robert Kimball, in your world of lyrics?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "1183445400", "date": "2023-06-21", "guest": "Robert Gottlieb", "title": "Remembering acclaimed editor Robert Gottlieb", "question_index": 21, "text": "And, Robert Gottlieb, in terms of the writing and the rhymes, what do you find really special about that song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The last song George Gershwin wrote, and maybe one of the greatest last songs written by any composer. And Ira finished the song after George died. George had only written the refrain."}
{"id": "1183445400", "date": "2023-06-21", "guest": "Robert Gottlieb", "title": "Remembering acclaimed editor Robert Gottlieb", "question_index": 22, "text": "Now, I know that using pop songs is not an empirical process where you could actually measure what is the better song, so did you have criteria other than what really struck you for inclusion in the book?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, one of the things that's said about Ira Gershwin is that his rhyming is very complicated and maybe overclever. And here in this song is the proof that that was not necessarily or often"}
{"id": "1183445400", "date": "2023-06-21", "guest": "Robert Gottlieb", "title": "Remembering acclaimed editor Robert Gottlieb", "question_index": 23, "text": "Robert Gottlieb, you've edited - published many books of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But finally, I think we felt that those songs that we were going to include were songs that could be sung today by cabaret singers or whoever. In other words, that they had a viable life in the now. T"}
{"id": "1183445400", "date": "2023-06-21", "guest": "Robert Gottlieb", "title": "Remembering acclaimed editor Robert Gottlieb", "question_index": 24, "text": "...Poetry, and you're the former editor in chief at Knopf.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's for sure."}
{"id": "1183445400", "date": "2023-06-21", "guest": "Robert Gottlieb", "title": "Remembering acclaimed editor Robert Gottlieb", "question_index": 25, "text": "...And your publishing company put out many, many books of poetry.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1183445400", "date": "2023-06-21", "guest": "Robert Gottlieb", "title": "Remembering acclaimed editor Robert Gottlieb", "question_index": 26, "text": "And still does. And I'm sure you've read much poetry over the years. How do you think of lyrics as - how do you judge lyrics differently than you judge poetry?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And still does."}
{"id": "1183445400", "date": "2023-06-21", "guest": "Robert Gottlieb", "title": "Remembering acclaimed editor Robert Gottlieb", "question_index": 27, "text": "I'm interested in the music that you grew up with. What was the music that you first became aware of and that first got you interested in music? Robert Gottlieb?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're remembering Robert Gottlieb, the legendary editor who died last week at the age of 92. We're listening back to an interview from 2000 with Gottlieb and music theater expert Ro"}
{"id": "1183445400", "date": "2023-06-21", "guest": "Robert Gottlieb", "title": "Remembering acclaimed editor Robert Gottlieb", "question_index": 28, "text": "Did either of you have - like, I grew up in the '50s and '60s. And there was this huge musical gap between what I was listening to as a child and what my parents were listening to. They wanted to listen to the station that played Perry Como. I wanted to listen to the station that played Elvis Presley. And there was a real musical war going on. Was there a musical conflict when you were coming of age with your parents?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And would have been the mid-'40s. That was pretty early for me. But my experience is because my mother both played and sang with the theater. And early show experience, of course, was \"Annie Get Yo"}
{"id": "1183445400", "date": "2023-06-21", "guest": "Robert Gottlieb", "title": "Remembering acclaimed editor Robert Gottlieb", "question_index": 29, "text": "Instead of having a garage band, you sat around the piano in the living room.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. For instance, my mother played the piano, and we - she loved to sing. And we used to sing a lot. We sang a lot of Gilbert and Sullivan. She'd play, and I'd sing. But when \"Oklahoma!\" opened in t"}
{"id": "1183445400", "date": "2023-06-21", "guest": "Robert Gottlieb", "title": "Remembering acclaimed editor Robert Gottlieb", "question_index": 30, "text": "Absolutely. Unless you were the Partridge family.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. And even if you had a garage band, your mother wasn't going to be part of it, I believe, in your day."}
{"id": "1183445400", "date": "2023-06-21", "guest": "Robert Gottlieb", "title": "Remembering acclaimed editor Robert Gottlieb", "question_index": 31, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Unless your mother was a very special lady. Right."}
{"id": "1183445400", "date": "2023-06-21", "guest": "Robert Gottlieb", "title": "Remembering acclaimed editor Robert Gottlieb", "question_index": 32, "text": "Are any of the songs that you brought with you today songs that you remember from your childhood?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And my parents always told me that they got married to \"I'm In The Mood For Love,\" which was a 1935 song. And so I always became drawn to that material because it meant something to them. So we were s"}
{"id": "1183445400", "date": "2023-06-21", "guest": "Robert Gottlieb", "title": "Remembering acclaimed editor Robert Gottlieb", "question_index": 33, "text": "You mention \"Making Whoopee.\" Why don't we hear that? In fact, why don't we hear two versions of that? 'Cause you were talking about how these songs have such a remarkable life and how they're changed depending on what era it is and who's singing it. So why don't we play the Eddie Cantor version, which you brought with you, and then hear that back to back with the Ray Charles version. Did Eddie Cantor have the first hit of this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Makin' Whoopee\" would be a song that I remember."}
{"id": "1183445400", "date": "2023-06-21", "guest": "Robert Gottlieb", "title": "Remembering acclaimed editor Robert Gottlieb", "question_index": 34, "text": "Let's hear it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a Ziegfeld show. There was a wonderful filmed version of it, also with Eddie Cantor. Really, the truest view we have of Ziegfeld shows comes from that movie of \"Whoopee!\" Yeah. And again, just "}
{"id": "1183445400", "date": "2023-06-21", "guest": "Robert Gottlieb", "title": "Remembering acclaimed editor Robert Gottlieb", "question_index": 35, "text": "That's two versions of the Gus Kahn lyric, \"Makin' Whoopee.\" We heard Eddie Cantor, for whom the song was written, and then we heard from Ray Charles. Well, that is one of the great don't mention sex, but it's about sex kind of lyrics.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) A lot of shoes, a lot of rice. The groom is nervous. Oh, he answers twice. It's really killing, the boy's so willing to make whoopee, whoopee. Picture a little love nest, yeah, down where th"}
{"id": "1183445400", "date": "2023-06-21", "guest": "Robert Gottlieb", "title": "Remembering acclaimed editor Robert Gottlieb", "question_index": 36, "text": "Find a nicer word to use than sex. Robert Kimball, Robert Gottlieb, thank you both so much for talking with us about lyrics. Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1183445400", "date": "2023-06-21", "guest": "Robert Gottlieb", "title": "Remembering acclaimed editor Robert Gottlieb", "question_index": 37, "text": "Did you ever want your name on the cover of a book as editor? Do you wish you had more visibility over the years as the editor?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry Gross spoke with Robert Kimball and Robert Gottlieb in 2000. Let's return to our other interview with Robert Gottlieb, recorded last December."}
{"id": "1183445400", "date": "2023-06-21", "guest": "Robert Gottlieb", "title": "Remembering acclaimed editor Robert Gottlieb", "question_index": 38, "text": "Well, I'd like to end with a song. And I was hoping, since you're deep into, like, jazz and pop singers, I was wondering if you'd like to choose a song that you're especially fond of right now. Maybe something that's really endured in your mind on your, like, top 10 list or something that you're just deep into right now that's speaking to you at the moment that would be a good song to play.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not at all - I always wanted to be unseen and unheard, which is what editors should be. That didn't work all that well for me because for whatever reason, starting with the success of \"Catch-22,\" but "}
{"id": "1183445400", "date": "2023-06-21", "guest": "Robert Gottlieb", "title": "Remembering acclaimed editor Robert Gottlieb", "question_index": 39, "text": "Oh, Chet Baker. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the song that's in my mind now is the song that ends Lizzy's film, which is \"Do It The Hard Way.\""}
{"id": "1183445400", "date": "2023-06-21", "guest": "Robert Gottlieb", "title": "Remembering acclaimed editor Robert Gottlieb", "question_index": 40, "text": "All right. A nice note to end on. Let's end with the song that you suggested. And this is Chet Baker. And this song also ends the movie \"Turn Every Page,\" the documentary about you and Robert Caro. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, sung a million times by Chet Baker and by Rodgers and Hart. (Singing) So do it the hard way and it's easy sailing. My father believed that. And although I didn't accept everything my father beli"}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Remember the news story from 2020 about a bird-watcher in Central Park who told a woman she needed to leash her dog because she was in a part of the park designed to attract wildlife and an unleashed dog was a threat to the wildlife? She refused. He started videotaping the incident on his phone. The woman, who was white, called the police, falsely claiming that an African American man was threatening her and her dog. The man, Christian Cooper, has written a new memoir and is my guest. One chapter is devoted to the Central Park incident. The rest of the book is about growing up as an outsider and how he turned that to his advantage. Growing up in the '70s, he was a young Black bird-watcher in a world of white bird-watchers, a closeted gay boy and a Marvel comic book nerd before that was considered cool. While at Harvard, he came out and then became a gay activist. He was one of the first openly gay writers and editors at Marvel and created what he thinks was Marvel's first lesbian character and was in on the creation of Marvel's first openly gay male character. Now Cooper hosts a new show for the National Geographic Channel called \"Extraordinary Birder,\" and he serves on the board of New York City Audubon. His new memoir is called \"Better Living Through Birding: Notes From A Black Man In The Natural World.\" As you can guess from the title, the book is also filled with his stories about bird-watching. Christian Cooper, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 1, "text": "The first chapter of your new book is titled \"An Incident In Central Park.\" And I thought, yes, I know about that incident. And you write, I am - you're describing what's happening at the moment. You said, I am a Black man running through New York's Central Park. And you describe how your heart is pounding, and you say, I know what this looks like. And I'm thinking, I don't remember the part about you running in the Central Park incident, but then you explain you're really running because you got an alert on your phone about a rare bird sighting in the park and you don't want to miss it. So when you say, I know what this looks like, what did you think it looked like as you were running through Central Park to get a sight of this rare bird?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 2, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A sloppy-looking Black man racing through the park because honestly, at that point in the migration, I am a visual mess."}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 3, "text": "All right. So let's talk about the Central Park incident that you were involved in. It was Memorial Day 2020. The park was quiet because it was, like, the COVID era. Few people were birding during that period, apparently. And, you know, New York was a real COVID hotspot. There wasn't a vaccine. There wasn't treatment. And so I think you were masking outside as well as inside at the time. So you were in the part of Central Park known as the Ramble. What makes this part of the park special and different?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My hair is likely uncut. I am almost certainly unshaven for several days. My clothes are from the bottom of the closet, something that I would never otherwise wear except that I haven't done laundry i"}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 4, "text": "But dogs have to be leashed there because of all the wildlife, because the dogs can attack the wildlife.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Ramble is designed to make you feel like you are in the Catskills, in a wooded area that you would normally find maybe about two hours north of the city. But here you are smack in the middle of Ma"}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 5, "text": "OK. So on that famous Memorial Day of 2020 - I should say infamous - first you saw a dog unleashed. Then you saw the woman who turned out to be Amy Cooper, no relation to you. So you told Amy Cooper, the woman - I should say, the white woman - whose dog was unleashed. And you told her the dog needs to be leashed. And you pointed to a sign saying that the dog needs to be leashed. Just to refresh everybody's memory, describe the dialogue that you had with her.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The wildlife, the plantings - it's a sensitive area. I don't know if you've ever seen a dog run, but nothing grows there. And that's because, you know, the constant foot traffic from dogs tears up the"}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 6, "text": "OK. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Basically, I, you know, heard it first."}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Then she started threatening to call the police. And you kept saying, yeah, please go ahead. Why did you say, please go ahead?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was the first thing. Yeah, the sound came first - knew there was an unleashed dog in the Ramble, saw it tearing through the very area I was hoping to find a particular bird and then saw the owner"}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 8, "text": "So before we get to the African American part of that, why did you start videotaping her? What were you going to do with the videotape?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, there's an interesting moment before that, which is that because she had picked up the dog by the collar and was hauling it around by the collar, which was hurting the dog, which was not the"}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 9, "text": "And then she actually called the police and said, there is an African American man threatening me and my dog. So once she started using the word African American man, how did that change the situation in your mind?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A lot of us birders, because the problem was so out of control, particularly that year - it was the worst I had ever seen it - we started recording with our iPhones because we figured, look. We've got"}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 10, "text": "So she did call the police. And she also leashed her dog. And then what happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it injected race into the situation for the first time. Up until then, it had been the second-oldest story in the Ramble, which is dog owner versus birdwatcher. But now, suddenly, it had a racia"}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 11, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Christian Cooper, and his new book is called \"Better Living Through Birding: Notes From A Black Man In The Natural World.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's it - is that - you know, calling the police was immaterial to me. You know, she had to do what she was going to do. And there was - you know, I was not going to cooperate with her by stop"}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 12, "text": "\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's it - is that - you know, calling the police was immaterial to me. You know, she had to do what she was going to do. And there was - you know, I was not going to cooperate with her by stop"}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Christian Cooper, a bird-watcher, host of the new National Geographic show \"Extraordinary Birder.\" He's a former Marvel Comics writer who helped introduce the first gay character and wrote the first lesbian character. His new memoir, \"Better Living Through Birding,\" is about bird-watching, being closeted, then coming out when he was at Harvard and being obsessed with Marvel Comics and then writing for Marvel. You probably know him from the 2020 incident in Central Park when he was bird-watching and asked a white woman to leash her dog, which was mandatory in that part of the park. She called the police and said an African American man is threatening her and her dog. And his video of the incident went viral. The Manhattan DA wanted to press charges, which he did. It was Cyrus Vance Jr., who's also investigated Donald Trump. But anyhow, so he wanted to press charges. You declined to participate in that. Why? He was going to press - he pressed charges for, you know, like, falsely accusing you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's it - is that - you know, calling the police was immaterial to me. You know, she had to do what she was going to do. And there was - you know, I was not going to cooperate with her by stop"}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Yeah. She lost her job. Her dog was taken away from her.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. That was a very hard call for me because I got the principle involved and how important it was. But on the other hand, you know, her life was in ruins. It was a shambles. If that has not served"}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 15, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. She was sort of, like, this national pariah. Her past indiscretions were splashed on all the front pages. It was just, you know - and then there were people who were, you know, sending death th"}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 16, "text": "So a twist in this story is, you know, when she called the police and said, an African American man is threatening me, you thought of Philando Castile and how he was shot by the police. The same day that this happened to you - later that day, George Floyd was killed by the police. And that set off, like, a whole movement. So what was your reaction when you found out about George Floyd?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There were a lot of things involved. It was a very hard call. It was really right on the line for me, and ultimately, I was just like, I have to err on the side of mercy, forgiveness, whatever you wan"}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 17, "text": "You think that, among other things, the Central Park incident helped bring more Black people into birding because here you were, you know, a passionate African American birder. Why do you think birding had been such an almost exclusively white passion in the U.S.?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A sinking feeling that, here we go again, because I'm old enough that I lived through Amadou Diallo, who was an African immigrant here in New York City who ended up shot dead as he sat on his own door"}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 18, "text": "Let's take another short break here, and there's plenty more to talk about. If you're just joining us, my guest is Christian Cooper. His new memoir is called \"Better Living Through Birding: Notes From A Black Man In The Natural World.\" We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a good question. I think there's a couple of reasons. One is that there is sort of a barrier to entry in that binoculars are a key component of the hobby. It doesn't mean that you can't bird wi"}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Christian Cooper. His new memoir, called \"Better Living Through Birding: Notes From A Black Man In The Natural World,\" is about growing up as a birdwatcher, as a closeted gay boy and a Marvel comics nerd and then, as an adult, writing for Marvel Comics, becoming a gay activist and now hosting a National Geographic show called \"Extraordinary Birder.\" But a lot of people know him as the birdwatcher who asked a white woman in Central Park to follow the rules and leash her dog. And instead, she called the police and said, an African American man is threatening me and my dog. He made a video of that. It was posted on Twitter and went viral. So let's talk about your youth. What was it like for you being Black, a birder, a closeted gay boy and a comic book nerd? And this was - you were deep into Marvel comics. And this was way before Marvel was famous for its Marvel universe movie franchise. So Marvel was actually kind of having financial problems at the time, right? It wasn't that cool to be so deep into Marvel comics.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a good question. I think there's a couple of reasons. One is that there is sort of a barrier to entry in that binoculars are a key component of the hobby. It doesn't mean that you can't bird wi"}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yes, exactly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know if Marvel was having financial problems at that time, but they had not discovered the formula to fame and fortune that they have discovered now. So if you're asking me what that was like,"}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 21, "text": "How much on the outside did you feel?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Nerdy things all at once..."}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 22, "text": "That's concise", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, you know..."}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 23, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, you know..."}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 24, "text": "One thing that happened when you were going through puberty is that you realized you were finding some of the superheroes very arousing. And let's face it. I mean, they're usually muscular. They're sometimes dressed in tights or very revealing costumes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But you know what? What I like to remember is that I embraced it. It was who I was. And I was like, you know what? I've got to go with this because it's what I love. It's what I enjoy. And that would "}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, and quite honestly, for me, it didn't even wait until puberty..."}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 26, "text": "OK. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What did that say to you? And what was your reaction to realizing that you found the male superheroes, you know, sexually attractive?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...For that realization."}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 27, "text": "You write in your book that you felt as if you were locked inside a coffin under six feet of earth.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That I needed to keep it under lock and key because it was the '70s, and it was Long Island. And being gay was not a thing, at least not a thing if you wanted to live. So, you know, there was no Ellen"}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 28, "text": "What did you do to try to cover up your actual feelings and appear as straight as possible?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 29, "text": "You write about how some African Americans who aren't LGBTQ dismiss the gay experience as being terribly oppressive because, unlike Black people, gays can blend in at will. They don't have...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was more a matter of I couldn't let anything slip. And don't laugh at me, but, again, I'm a nerd. And for me, my idol, probably largely because of that reason - the fact that I had to keep my gayne"}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 30, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's a curse, not a blessing."}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 31, "text": "Can you talk about that and what your response to that is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That is a curse."}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 32, "text": "Let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Christian Cooper. And his new book is called \"Better Living Through Birding: Notes From A Black Man In The Natural World.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no, exactly that, which is that the fact that many - not all, but many - gay people can, you know, blend and pass and disappear into the norm so that we can get by is a horrible fate. It means s"}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 33, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Christian Cooper. His new memoir, \"Better Living Through Birding,\" is about birdwatching, being closeted, then coming out when he was at Harvard and being obsessed with Marvel comics and then writing for Marvel. You probably know him from the 2020 incident in Central Park, when he was birdwatching and asked a white woman to leash her dog, which was mandatory in that part of the park. She called the police and said an African American man is threatening her and her dog. The video of that incident went viral. You love Marvel Comics. You were a Marvel Comic nerd growing up. And then you actually got to work at Marvel. What did Marvel mean in the culture at the time? Like, when did you first start working for Marvel? And you moved up in the ranks over the years.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no, exactly that, which is that the fact that many - not all, but many - gay people can, you know, blend and pass and disappear into the norm so that we can get by is a horrible fate. It means s"}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 34, "text": "So one of the comics that you worked on was called \"Alpha Flight.\" And you participated in the episode in which a Marvel superhero came out for the first time. Would you describe the character?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I started working at Marvel in 1990. So I had just gone through reading Marvel comics for my whole life but particularly intensely during my college years. Believe it or not, that's when - proba"}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Right. Of course", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. We say issue in comics, not episode. But that's OK."}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 36, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. We say issue in comics, not episode. But that's OK."}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 37, "text": "So what was Marvel's reaction to the gay character, the character coming out of the closet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And the character is a speedster - so sort of like The Flash, who is probably a much more familiar character if you know anything about comics. In fact, there's a movie about The Flash that's about to"}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 38, "text": "That is really offensive.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", oh, blew a gasket or two. It was not a pretty sight. But it was too late. It had already gone to print. And, mind you, what's so hysterical about this, particularly in retrospect, is that it's not l"}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 39, "text": "So - OK, so here you are, a gay comic book writer sitting with execs from Marvel, being told you cannot have gay characters, which is basically erasing you as a legitimate person.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 40, "text": "So what was the experience like on your end?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 41, "text": "In one of the stories that you ended up writing, you know, one of the comic books that you were the writer on, you introduced what you think was the first lesbian character at Marvel. And this was for a horror comic that you were writing called \"Darkhold: Pages From The Book Of Sins.\" So how were you able to do that? And how lesbian were you allowed to make her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So, of course, they come out with this - I think it was a four- or six-issue limited series. And, of course, it flopped because it was ridiculous. Everyone - you know, they wouldn't touch the gay th"}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 42, "text": "What was the reaction to that at Marvel?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Bobbie was the editor of that comic, so Bobbie was not tying my hands. But there was the edict from on high. So I had to be a little bit subtle but really not all that. I mean, when you meet her"}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 43, "text": "Was this years later, after...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nobody batted an eyelash, you know?"}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 44, "text": "You developed your own digital comic called \"Queer Nation: The Online Gay Comic.\" What did you do with the freedom that you had?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a little bit later. You know, the thing was that Marvel was a very accepting, open place. I mean, we were all weirdos in some way or other, and we all loved each other in some way or other. So, y"}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 45, "text": "Absolutely, so true. So something that ties together very nicely some of the aspects of your personal story is that after the incident in Central Park, where a white woman called the police and said, a Black man is threatening me and my dog, after you told her to leash her dog and started making a video - so after that, DC Comics - and I'll remind everybody you wrote for Marvel Comics and were a total comic nerd when you were a kid - DC Comics did an issue based on the Central Park incident. What was that like for you? It's like tying together two different aspects of your life in what, I would imagine, is a very meaningful way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I had so much fun doing that. In fact, every once in a while, I consider bringing it back 'cause we never got to finish the story, and it's a good story. But I was basically able to throw off the "}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 46, "text": "You should say the title 'cause the title's great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a real privilege. It was actually Bobbie Chase, my old boss at Marvel, who was now working at DC - or, at that time, she was working at DC - and Marie Javins, another old Marvel alum and dear f"}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 47, "text": "Yeah. Did you end up having a lot of birds in the issue?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. The title is \"It's A Bird,\" which, if you know anything about the Superman legend, of course, it's a reference to Superman. Look up in the sky. It's a bird. It's a plane. It's Superman. So t"}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 48, "text": "Good.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Birds all over the place."}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 49, "text": "My guest is Christian Cooper. His new memoir is called \"Better Living Through Birding.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's about a birder who starts - who gets a special pair of binoculars. And through those binoculars, he starts seeing things. And what he - I won't give away what he sees. But through these things he"}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 50, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Christian Cooper, author of the new memoir \"Better Living Through Birding: Notes From A Black Man In The Natural World.\" I think we should end with a couple of birding tips. And here's one I particularly like, and this has to do with binoculars. You write, first, find the bird with your naked eye. Then, keeping your eyes on the bird, bring the binocular to your eyes, not the other way around. That's, I guess, in some ways, really obvious. I never would have thought of it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's about a birder who starts - who gets a special pair of binoculars. And through those binoculars, he starts seeing things. And what he - I won't give away what he sees. But through these things he"}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 51, "text": "You write, the best way to learn bird songs isn't by listening to recordings. With that method, they all start to blend together. So what is the best method? And do you sing bird songs? Do you know them well enough to sing them? And if so, can you replicate a couple of bird songs for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's the key technique to master because once you master that, suddenly you're locking on to birds that slipped out of your grasp before. And Elliot Kutner, my birding mentor from when I was a child, "}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 52, "text": "I did. Yes, I did.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, you had to go there; didn't you?"}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 53, "text": "And now the bird song part.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. So, yes, the way I've learned all my bird songs over the years is whenever I hear something I don't recognize, I spend the time to track it down until I see that bird with its mouth moving and its"}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 54, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK, let's see if I can whistle right now. Hooded warbler is a good one to do because it's easy for humans to do. (Imitating hooded warbler). That's a hooded warbler. A friend of mine has come up with "}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 55, "text": "Oh, thank you for that. My final question to you is - you're now hosting the National Geographic TV series \"Extraordinary Birder.\" Does that mean that you get to go to places with a camera crew, with a whole team that you wouldn't feel safe going to birding as a Black man alone?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, there's a whole bunch. You could go on for days. And people come up with their own. You know, whatever helps you remember, go for it."}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 56, "text": "Well, congratulations on the series. I think it's great that you have it. And congratulations on your memoir. It's just been, like, really a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. I mean, the most important episode to me is when we go to Alabama. And I was like, go to Alabama to go birding - not going to happen. Now, I had gone a year before at the invitation of Ala"}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 57, "text": "Christian Cooper's new memoir is called \"Better Living Through Birding: Notes From A Black Man In The Natural World.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll talk about how the American Catholic Church, for about a century, relied on the profits from enslaving and selling Black people to fund the building of schools and churches, support its clergy and keep expanding. My guest will be Rachel Swarns, author of a new book about the Catholic Church's involvement in slavery and the families it enslaved. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you so much, Terry."}
{"id": "1185076694", "date": "2023-06-29", "guest": "Christian Cooper", "title": "Central Park birder Christian Cooper on being 'a Black man in the natural world'", "question_index": 58, "text": "To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at @NPRFreshAir. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our senior producer today is Therese Madden. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Ann Marie Baldonado, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. FRESH AIR'S co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you so much, Terry."}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 0, "text": "Sheldon Harnick, welcome to FRESH AIR. Is this very good news for you that \"She Loves Me\" has been reissued? Are you glad to see it back in print again?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Georg Nowack, singing) She loves me. And to my amazement, I love it, knowing that she loves me. She loves me. True, she doesn't show it. How could she when she doesn't know it? Yesterday she loath"}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 1, "text": "It closed after a little over 300 performances...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it certainly is because, along with \"Fiddler On The Roof,\" I think it's the favorite show that I've ever been connected with."}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 2, "text": "...On Broadway. The liner notes were written by the producer of this reissue, Larry Lash, and he implies that audiences really wanted brassier entertainment then \"She Loves Me\" at the time that it opened on Broadway. What was the context that it opened in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's correct."}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 3, "text": "Yeah, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The context, meaning other shows?"}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 4, "text": "Let me ask you a couple of things about the title song that we just heard. The initial rhymes are really repetitions. She loves me, but she doesn't know it - no, she loves me, but she doesn't show it. How could she when she doesn't know it? What goes through your mind when you're using, say, two its instead of rhyming an it with a sit or an it with a bit - but to reuse that word?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was 1963. Oh, I don't remember what the other shows were, but I think it's true that \"She Loves Me\" is a very literate, rather gentle show and, as some people have called it, caviar. It seeme"}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 5, "text": "I like the line, my teeth ache from the urge to touch her. I...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, that's a different kind of rhyme. The rhyme is not it. If you'll notice, the accent is on the first - is on the prior syllable, show it, know it, and that's done all the time. If it were one word,"}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 6, "text": "I want to play the opening number that you wrote the lyrics for for \"She Loves Me.\" This is called \"Good Morning, Good Day.\" But before we hear it, I'd like you to talk a little bit about the function that this song had to serve within the play 'cause opening numbers are really important. They have to set the tone for everything that's going to follow. And they frequently have to introduce the characters as well.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's an extremely personal line. I was trying to use myself as Georg, and I realized that there are situations with some women where, whatever the feelings are, they get me right in the back o"}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 7, "text": "What are some of the functions this song had to play when you were writing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 8, "text": "OK. Let's hear a part of \"Good Morning, Good Day,\" with the lyrics by my guest, Sheldon Harnick.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the - I guess the main thing that the song did was to set the tone of the show. And, for good or for bad, it's a gentle tone. It's not a razzle-dazzle opening number. Also, the number - lyrics a"}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 9, "text": "When you're writing a lyric, do you find that you frequently throw out the first few versions of it before you come up with the one you like, or are you lucky enough to hit on it the first time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Ilona Ritter) Then marry me, and I'll..."}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 10, "text": "You never write pop songs, at least not that I know of. All of your songs are written in the context of a show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what I find - funny you should say that. I haven't thought about this for a while - but what I find is quite often the first version of a lyric - it's not that the lyric won't be technically goo"}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 11, "text": "Well, what did make you realize that your gift was for writing songs within shows and not just pop songs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. I learned very early that that was not my talent. I was quite disappointed when I discovered that because when I came to New York from Chicago, it was with the idea of being another Irving Berl"}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 12, "text": "Before you started working with composer Jerry Bock, you were writing music for your own songs. And I think it was Yip Harburg, the lyricist who's probably best known for writing lyrics to \"The Wizard Of Oz,\" who told you to stick to lyrics. Was that good advice?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. And today we're remembering lyricist Sheldon Harnick, who died last week at the age of 99. Let's get back to Terry's conversation with Harnick, recorded in 1988."}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 13, "text": "I think one of the things that would be really nice about writing lyrics to somebody else's music is that you've got a variety of lines to write to, that you've got - if the music's coming first, you have somebody else's lines to fit your words and rhymes to, and that there'd be less of a possibility of getting stuck or of rewriting the same song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Well, it certainly facilitated my career. What he did was to tell me that in his estimation at that time - this was the early '50s - that there were more capable theater composers than there were"}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 14, "text": "Stephen Sondheim back at his lecture on lyrics that he gave at the New York Y years ago - this was in the 1970s - said that you were one of his favorite lyricists and that he liked your work for its grace, its charm and its perfection of setting. And I think that perfection of setting has really been an important one for you. And I think of the different kinds of settings you've had to write - for \"Fiorello,\" which is about New York politics, \"Fiddler On The Roof,\" which is set in an Eastern European shtetl. I mean, those are two really different extremes that you had to write lyrics for.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there's always the possibility of getting stuck. But what is wonderful about writing with someone else - there's two things that come to mind. One is that music, although people consider it as a"}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 15, "text": "Which one?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I - well, I do my research. And as a matter of fact, I think that accounts for the - I think, the least successful show that I did."}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, \"Fiddler On The Roof,\" which was a very unusual setting, the Eastern European shtetl, was one of your most successful shows and one of the most successful shows on Broadway, probably. This was one of the shows that you initiated the idea for.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The first one with Jerry Bock was called \"The Body Beautiful.\" And I accepted the show because I was very hungry to get a show on Broadway, but it was not the show I should have done. It was about box"}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 17, "text": "We were talking before about songs that do and don't have lives outside of the show. And you said you always wanted to write songs that would have a life outside of the show. I think the songs in \"Fiddler On The Roof\" certainly did. And I think especially of \"Sunrise, Sunset,\" about how many weddings...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. A friend had sent me a novel by Sholem Aleichem, a book called \"Wandering Star,\" about a Yiddish theatrical troupe touring all over Russia and Poland. And I loved it. And I gave it to Jerry Boc"}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 18, "text": "...That song has been sung at. Can I ask you to recite the lyrics from the song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 19, "text": "Or the opening", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I can."}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 20, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I can."}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 21, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I can remember the first chorus, anyway."}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 22, "text": "What came first in that song when you were writing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Is this the little girl I carried? Is this the little boy at play? I don't remember growing older, when did they? When did she get to be a beauty? When did he grow to be so tall? Wasn't it yesterday t"}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 23, "text": "When you're looking at a book that you're going to be writing the lyrics for, how do you know where the songs go? What makes the place in a Broadway book for a song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The music. And I remember it very vividly. Jerry Bock was living in New Rochelle at the time. And I would take the train out there. We would go into his basement, where he had a studio. And he played "}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 24, "text": "You remember any of the lyric? This is \"Politics And Poker\" you're talking about, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there can be a number of different places. One, of course, which we're all taught, is that one looks for the emotional high point of the scene, where the emotion is so strong that the words want"}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 25, "text": "Feel like an imposter when that happens?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is \"Politics And Poker.\" Well, the first part was all that king bets. I panic whenever anybody asks me to remember one of my lyrics. But it's..."}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 26, "text": ". One last question. When you're writing lyrics for a song, where are you? At the piano, at the desk, on the couch, driving in the car?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They'll see right through me. They'll see that I have this small boy who comes in and does all my lyrics for me."}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 27, "text": "I thank you very much for talking with us. Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm various places. Where I prefer to be when I start is in a reclining chair. And on a little end table next to the chair is my thesaurus and my rhyming dictionary if I need them. But I like to be qu"}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 28, "text": "Well, Sheldon Harnick...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 29, "text": "Well, I'm going to play \"If I Were A Rich Man,\" and this is the only track that I'm going to play from the original cast recording 'cause - because Zero Mostel is so famous for how he interpreted this song. So let's hear Zero Mostel from the original cast recording doing \"If I Were A Rich Man.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it was - after all, it's only part - I don't want to put it down because I think it's a surprising part and an endearing part of the whole song, \"If I Were A Rich Man.\""}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 30, "text": "Zero Mostel from the original cast recording doing \"If I Were A Rich Man.\" There's a new cast recording from the new revival that's out, and we'll hear more from that in a moment. My guests are Sheldon Harnick, who wrote the lyrics to the show, and Jerry Bock, who wrote the music. Sheldon Harnick, the yaidle-deedle dig-a-dig-a-do (ph) part", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Tevye) Dear God, you made many, many poor people. I realize, of course, that it's no shame to be poor, but it's no great honor, either. So what would have been so terrible if I had a small fortune"}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 31, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Tevye) Dear God, you made many, many poor people. I realize, of course, that it's no shame to be poor, but it's no great honor, either. So what would have been so terrible if I had a small fortune"}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 32, "text": "Did you actually write out the syllables that you wanted Zero Mostel to sing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 33, "text": "Was he hard...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 34, "text": "...Or easy to work with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was..."}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 35, "text": "Here's one of the show's most popular songs, \"To Life,\" performed by Alfred Molina as Tevye and David Wohl as the butcher Lazar Wolf. They're drinking a toast because Tevye has just agreed to let the butcher marry Tevye's daughter, Tzeitel.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm glad, too."}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 36, "text": "This is the only song that actually has a Yiddish word in it, l'chaim, which is a toast to life. So, Sheldon Harnick, when you were writing the lyrics, it seems to me you intentionally avoided using anything Yiddish with the exception of this song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Lazar Wolf) Reb Morta."}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 37, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there is one other song. The dream uses the word mazel tov."}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 38, "text": "That's true - a blessing on your head.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But..."}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 39, "text": "Mazel tov. Mazel tov.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 40, "text": "Did you yell at him afterwards?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Unhappily, after the show was running - the original show was running, our dear star Zero would occasionally go into a matinee and use more Yiddish than we ever could have dreamed of in certain perfor"}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 41, "text": "So there's a song I want to play from \"Fiorello!\" that's a beautiful unrequited love song. Unfortunately, it was taken out of the show. Let's hear the song and how lovely it is. And then, well, you could tell us why it was never actually in \"Fiorello!\" So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would go over to Jerry's studio. He was living in New Rochelle when we began to work. We would go into his studio and begin to work on the song because writing the lyric - writing a lyric to the mus"}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 42, "text": "This is a demo recording with my guest Sheldon Harnick and his co-composer Jerry Bock at the piano.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 43, "text": "That's Sheldon Harnick singing his lyrics to the song \"Where Do I Go From Here?\" with the composer of the song, Jerry Bock, at the piano, a song written for the musical \"Fiorello!\" but it wasn't used in the musical. But it is included in the new double CD \"Sheldon Harnick: Hidden Treasures (1949-2013).\" So Sheldon Harnick, tell us why that song was not used in \"Fiorello!\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) He doesn't love me. I know it's true. The signs lines are all too clear, but loving him the way I do, where do I go from here? The time is..."}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 44, "text": "So in the show \"Fiddler On The Roof,\" there's a song called \"Anatevka,\" which the Jews in this small town sing when they're forced out of their village, Anatevka. And it's a very - the song that's used in the show is both about, well, it's just a place. It's not an important place. But it's also a very nostalgic song for the place that they are being forced to leave, the place that is their only home. But initially in \"Fiddler On The Roof,\" there was a song called \"Letters From America.\" So tell us what the intention was with \"Letters From America\" and why it became \"Anatevka.\"", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. And today, we're remembering lyricist Sheldon Harnick, who died last week at the age of 99. Let's get back to Terry Gross's conversation with Harnick recorded in 2014, when he'd tur"}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 45, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we thought we needed an - it's traditional kind of to have an up-tempo song opening the second act to get the second act off to a good start. And we thought we needed that. So Joe Stein remember"}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 46, "text": "So let's hear the demo version that you made of \"Letters From America,\" the song that was cut, and then we'll segue into a little bit of the song that you wrote instead, \"Anatevka,\" the song that was actually used in \"Fiddler On The Roof.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So we wrote the song, and part of it - a part of it was very active. I think you'd call it a kazotsky, a Russian kazotsky - (vocalizing). Anyway, it was Hal Prince, our producer on the show, who point"}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 47, "text": "So you said you were a worrier. What are the things that you worry most about that have - like, you've always worried about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Yente) A piece of cloth. UNIDENTIFIED GROUP #1: (As characters, singing) What do we leave? Nothing much, only Anatevka. Anatevka, Anatevka - underfed, overworked Anatevka - where else could Sabbat"}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 48, "text": "Now, you say that Jerry Bock, the composer with whom you wrote the most songs, was different from you in that respect. You describe him as an ebullient gentleman who exuded self-confidence. So if you were a worrier and he was ebullient and self-confident, how did that play out in writing songs together...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, up until \"Fiorello!,\" I guess, I worried about being able to make a living in the theater. And my parents also worried about that. They suggested that my brother and I open a shoe store. They sa"}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 49, "text": "...And in preparing before a show? Because you'd probably be worrying...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think..."}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 50, "text": "...About whether it's going to do well. And maybe he'd be confident.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think..."}
{"id": "1185294793", "date": "2023-06-30", "guest": "Zero Mostel", "title": "Remembering Broadway legend and 'Fiddler on the Roof' lyricist Sheldon Harnick", "question_index": 51, "text": "Sheldon Harnick, thank you so much for talking with us. It's just been a treat to hear some of the stories behind some of your songs. And I wish you a great 90th birthday and a great 90th year.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's exactly right. Jerry, he seemed to have endless self-confidence. And it's reflected in the buoyancy of his music, which is, I think, one of the things that made us a good team, is that the blen"}
{"id": "1185331117", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Neil Diamond", "title": "Neil Diamond: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're going back into our archive to listen to our 2005 interview with Neil Diamond. His life is the subject of the current Broadway musical \"A Beautiful Noise,\" which features his songs. In 2018, Diamond revealed he'd been diagnosed with Parkinson's disease. Neil Diamond started out writing songs for a music publishing company in the hopes that someone would record them. He wrote The Monkees' No. 1 hit \"I'm A Believer,\" but it was Diamond himself who made most of his own songs famous - songs like \"Sweet Caroline,\" \"Solitary Man,\" \"Cherry, Cherry\" and \"Girl, You'll Be a Woman Soon.\" As a lot of his contemporaries fell off the charts, he moved from teen pop to adult pop, including his duet with Barbra Streisand and his hits from his remake of \"The Jazz Singer.\" Before we get to the interview, let's hear the piece about him that our former rock historian, the late Ed Ward, recorded in 2011 after a compilation of his songs was released.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1185331117", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Neil Diamond", "title": "Neil Diamond: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 1, "text": "That was the late Ed Ward recorded in 2011. For many years, he was FRESH AIR's rock historian. Now let's hear my 2005 interview with Neil Diamond.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The things at Bang were untenable. Bang's view of who he was and his own idea were at odds with each other. And when he and the label locked horns over what his next single should be, it resulted in a"}
{"id": "1185331117", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Neil Diamond", "title": "Neil Diamond: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 2, "text": "I think it's fair to say your first big break - correct me if I'm wrong - was when you had recorded a demo and the songwriters Ellie Greenwich and Jeff Barry heard the demo and they really liked you, and they - some of their songs are \"Da Doo Ron Ron,\" \"Chapel Of Love\"...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The things at Bang were untenable. Bang's view of who he was and his own idea were at odds with each other. And when he and the label locked horns over what his next single should be, it resulted in a"}
{"id": "1185331117", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Neil Diamond", "title": "Neil Diamond: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 3, "text": "\"Be My Baby,\" yeah. So how did they hear you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Be My Baby.\""}
{"id": "1185331117", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Neil Diamond", "title": "Neil Diamond: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 4, "text": "In the first session that you did with them, you recorded \"Solitary Man.\" Did you like the idea of horns on this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was making a demo. Usually, when you sold a song to a publisher, they would allow you to go in and make your own demo, which was invaluable experience to me. But I went and made the demo and hired E"}
{"id": "1185331117", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Neil Diamond", "title": "Neil Diamond: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I liked the idea of anything on those records."}
{"id": "1185331117", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Neil Diamond", "title": "Neil Diamond: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 6, "text": "Well, let's hear \"Solitary Man,\" which, I have to say, I think it's really a terrific recording.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was just thrilled to be there."}
{"id": "1185331117", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Neil Diamond", "title": "Neil Diamond: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yeah. So OK, let's hear it. This is your first hit, yes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1185331117", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Neil Diamond", "title": "Neil Diamond: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 8, "text": "That you recorded yourself, yeah? OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, if you can call it a hit."}
{"id": "1185331117", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Neil Diamond", "title": "Neil Diamond: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 9, "text": "OK. So this is Neil Diamond, \"Solitary Man.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1185331117", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Neil Diamond", "title": "Neil Diamond: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 10, "text": "That's Neil Diamond. Now, did you write this song for yourself or for somebody else?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Melinda was mine 'til the time that I found her holding Jim, loving him. Then Sue came along, loved me strong. That's what I thought, me and Sue. But that died, too. Don't know that I will, "}
{"id": "1185331117", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Neil Diamond", "title": "Neil Diamond: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 11, "text": "So how did \"Solitary Man\" change your idea of what you wanted from your musical life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I wrote this for myself. I had a contract with Jeff and Ellie. And I started to focus in on just what I wanted to do. And so \"Solitary Man\" was written for me and for the first sessions that I was"}
{"id": "1185331117", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Neil Diamond", "title": "Neil Diamond: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 12, "text": "When you were working in the rock 'n' roll Tin Pan Alley, were you actually - and you were writing for music publishers. Were you actually going to an office building every day to write?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Once I had a chart record of my own, I was no longer a kid knocking around on the streets. I was now - well, we didn't call them artists at that time. We called them vocalists. But I was a vocalist, a"}
{"id": "1185331117", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Neil Diamond", "title": "Neil Diamond: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 13, "text": "When you were working as a songwriter for publishers, writing for other people, were you writing for specific people? Were you writing with specific singers in mind?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I was signed to a staff publishing company, a music company, I would go in as often as I possibly could. The subway train from Brighton Beach, where I lived, that took us to New York University w"}
{"id": "1185331117", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Neil Diamond", "title": "Neil Diamond: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 14, "text": "We're listening to my 2005 interview with Neil Diamond. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's usually how it went back then, although I was never a good enough writer to kind of write for some other singer, to understand what they did best - the keys, the kind of song. Usually, yo"}
{"id": "1185331117", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Neil Diamond", "title": "Neil Diamond: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 2005 interview with Neil Diamond. The current Broadway musical, \"A Beautiful Noise,\" is about his life and features his songs. Now, The Monkees did a couple of your songs - \"I'm A Believer\" and \"A Little Bit Me, A Little Bit You.\" Did you write those with them in mind or for yourself? I'm trying to think of what the chronology was. Like, you started recording in - what? - like, '67.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's usually how it went back then, although I was never a good enough writer to kind of write for some other singer, to understand what they did best - the keys, the kind of song. Usually, yo"}
{"id": "1185331117", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Neil Diamond", "title": "Neil Diamond: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 16, "text": "'66. OK. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "'66."}
{"id": "1185331117", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Neil Diamond", "title": "Neil Diamond: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 17, "text": "What year are The Monkees? Like, is that after that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1185331117", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Neil Diamond", "title": "Neil Diamond: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 18, "text": "You know, it's funny. The common wisdom goes when telling the story of, like, songwriters from the Brill Building and The Beatles is that The Beatles changed everything. After The Beatles, bands started writing their own songs. It drove out the professional songwriters. But, of course, The Monkees are a band that's, you know, a kind of fabricated band copying The Beatles. And you have this tremendous success writing for them. And in that sense, like, The Beatles' success inadvertently really helped you as a songwriter.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think '67 - something like that. I recorded a couple of songs, including \"Solitary Man\" and \"Cherry, Cherry,\" which was a big hit. And because of that hit, the people who were producing The Monkees "}
{"id": "1185331117", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Neil Diamond", "title": "Neil Diamond: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 19, "text": "My guest is Neil Diamond. Here's his version of \"I'm A Believer.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, no question about it. But it was not only in the sense of The Monkees doing a couple of songs. It was in the sense that the doors began to open for songwriters who were able to sing, and I j"}
{"id": "1185331117", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Neil Diamond", "title": "Neil Diamond: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 20, "text": "One of the things that has kept you so musically successful over the decades is your tours. Would you describe a little bit how you put together your idea of what a show should be?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I thought love was only true in fairy tales - meant for someone else but not for me. Love was out to get me. That's the way it seemed. Disappointment haunted all my dreams. Then I saw her fa"}
{"id": "1185331117", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Neil Diamond", "title": "Neil Diamond: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 21, "text": "What about figuring out what to wear for your shows?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a good question. I've never worked with a director. I like to put the shows together myself with the help of a lot of other people, including the band - my band who have been with me for many yea"}
{"id": "1185331117", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Neil Diamond", "title": "Neil Diamond: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 22, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded with Neil Diamond in 2005. We'll hear more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I never thought about it. I have a clothing designer. His name is Bill Whitten. He's been doing my stage clothes for 35 years now. And so I let Bill take the lead in that. I have comments, obviously, "}
{"id": "1185331117", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Neil Diamond", "title": "Neil Diamond: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with Neil Diamond in 2005. The current Broadway musical \"A Beautiful Noise\" is about his life and features his songs. I want to ask you about another song that you wrote and recorded - a big hit for you, \"Sweet Caroline,\" which is now played at Red Sox games at Fenway Park, and maybe you know the story of why that is. But let's start with the song itself. Is there a story behind the writing of the song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I never thought about it. I have a clothing designer. His name is Bill Whitten. He's been doing my stage clothes for 35 years now. And so I let Bill take the lead in that. I have comments, obviously, "}
{"id": "1185331117", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Neil Diamond", "title": "Neil Diamond: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 24, "text": "It's also sung a lot in bars.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think so. I was heading down to Memphis for my first recording session down there. There were some producers I wanted to work with. And I only had two songs written, and in those days, a sessi"}
{"id": "1185331117", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Neil Diamond", "title": "Neil Diamond: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well, Neil Diamond, thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the fact is that it's fun and easy to sing with. And I think that that's the bottom line as far as that song is concerned. It's easy to sing. It's fun. People like to sing it. And that's why it'"}
{"id": "1185331117", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Neil Diamond", "title": "Neil Diamond: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 26, "text": "My interview with Neil Diamond was recorded in 2005. In 2018, he revealed he was diagnosed with Parkinson's disease. The Neil Diamond musical, \"A Beautiful Noise,\" is currently on Broadway. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll feature our interview with Janelle Monae. She grew up wanting to perform on Broadway but became famous for her afrofuturist funk, soul and hip-hop. She also co-starred in the films \"Glass Onion,\" \"Hidden Figures\" and \"Moonlight.\" Monae, who identifies as nonbinary, has a new album called \"The Age Of Pleasure.\" I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Where it began, I can't begin to know when, but then I know it's growing strong. Was in the spring, and spring became the summer. Who'd have believed you'd come along? Hands, touching hands,"}
{"id": "1185331117", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Neil Diamond", "title": "Neil Diamond: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 27, "text": "To keep up with what's on our show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram @nprfreshair. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering today from Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Ann Marie Baldonado, Therese Madden, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Where it began, I can't begin to know when, but then I know it's growing strong. Was in the spring, and spring became the summer. Who'd have believed you'd come along? Hands, touching hands,"}
{"id": "1185335174", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Glenda Jackson", "title": "Remembering Oscar-winning actor and British Parliament member Glenda Jackson", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today we're going to remember Glenda Jackson, who died June 15 at the age of 87. Jackson had two careers. She was an Oscar-winning actress who left acting to become a member of British Parliament, where she served for 23 years. She was elected in 1992 and stepped down in 2015. We're going to listen back to the interview I recorded with her in 2019 after she'd returned to acting and was starring on Broadway in a production of \"King Lear\" as King Lear. She had already played Lear in a London production that opened in 2016 at The Old Vic. In 2018, she won a Tony for her performance in the Edward Albee play \"Three Tall Women.\" Before serving in Parliament, she won Oscars for her performances in the 1969 movie \"Women In Love\" and the 1973 romantic comedy \"A Touch Of Class.\" She also starred in the 1971 movie \"Sunday Bloody Sunday.\" She won two Emmys playing Queen Elizabeth I in the 1971 BBC series \"Elizabeth R,\" which was shown in the U.S. as part of \"Masterpiece Theatre.\" When I spoke with her, we started with a clip from the Broadway production of King Lear. Lear has decided that he's old and it's time to unburden himself of his responsibilities as king and divide his kingdom among his three daughters.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1185335174", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Glenda Jackson", "title": "Remembering Oscar-winning actor and British Parliament member Glenda Jackson", "question_index": 1, "text": "Glenda Jackson, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As King Lear) Know we have divided in three our kingdom. And 'tis our fast intent to shake all cares and busyness from our age, conferring them on younger strengths while we, unburdened, crawl toward"}
{"id": "1185335174", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Glenda Jackson", "title": "Remembering Oscar-winning actor and British Parliament member Glenda Jackson", "question_index": 2, "text": "The first thing people always seem to want to know is, why is a woman playing King Lear, and what's it like to be a woman playing Lear? So you first played him in 2016 at The Old Vic in London. Why did you want to play Lear?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1185335174", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Glenda Jackson", "title": "Remembering Oscar-winning actor and British Parliament member Glenda Jackson", "question_index": 3, "text": "I want you to elaborate a little bit on how you see gender boundaries blurring or falling away with age and to apply it to your own life, as well, if you find it applicable.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Who would refuse the opportunity to work in a play of that stature? I mean, it is such an extraordinary play. Like all of Shakespeare, essentially, he only asks us three questions - who are we? What a"}
{"id": "1185335174", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Glenda Jackson", "title": "Remembering Oscar-winning actor and British Parliament member Glenda Jackson", "question_index": 4, "text": "Are there lines from \"Lear\" that have the most meaning to you, either personally or that you find most powerful or dramatic to say as an actor?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think I'm a bit of a cheat because when things are tough in a kind of direct way in my real life, I don't have any qualms about playing the old card, do you know what I mean? I mean, certainly"}
{"id": "1185335174", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Glenda Jackson", "title": "Remembering Oscar-winning actor and British Parliament member Glenda Jackson", "question_index": 5, "text": "I think I do...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I try to avoid that. I try to observe the world through the character's eyes, but people who see the play do point out lines that are particularly meaningful to them. I always rather regret that they "}
{"id": "1185335174", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Glenda Jackson", "title": "Remembering Oscar-winning actor and British Parliament member Glenda Jackson", "question_index": 6, "text": "...That you don't want to sound like a famous line. You want it to sound like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But there are amazing..."}
{"id": "1185335174", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Glenda Jackson", "title": "Remembering Oscar-winning actor and British Parliament member Glenda Jackson", "question_index": 7, "text": "...Speech, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is a thought."}
{"id": "1185335174", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Glenda Jackson", "title": "Remembering Oscar-winning actor and British Parliament member Glenda Jackson", "question_index": 8, "text": "...Thought or speech. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's..."}
{"id": "1185335174", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Glenda Jackson", "title": "Remembering Oscar-winning actor and British Parliament member Glenda Jackson", "question_index": 9, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know, it's a direct thought. I mean, it's - it arises out of the scene that you're trying to create with the other actors on the stage, yeah. But..."}
{"id": "1185335174", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Glenda Jackson", "title": "Remembering Oscar-winning actor and British Parliament member Glenda Jackson", "question_index": 10, "text": "So we've been talking about you playing King Lear. Let's hear you as Queen Elizabeth I in an excerpt...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, you know, in one's own time, there are lines that sort of reverberate and echo, yeah."}
{"id": "1185335174", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Glenda Jackson", "title": "Remembering Oscar-winning actor and British Parliament member Glenda Jackson", "question_index": 11, "text": "...Of your Emmy Award-winning performance in the BBC series \"Elizabeth R,\" which came to the U.S. as part of \"Masterpiece Theatre.\" So in this scene, you're the new queen. You're 25 years old and unmarried, and your council is trying to pressure you to marry quickly. A member of your council challenges you to accept a suitor in front of the whole court. And by the end of the scene, everyone around you is kneeling. And here's my guest, Glenda Jackson, with actor Esmond Knight.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "1185335174", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Glenda Jackson", "title": "Remembering Oscar-winning actor and British Parliament member Glenda Jackson", "question_index": 12, "text": "That was a scene from \"Elizabeth R\" with my guest, Glenda Jackson. So we've heard you as King Lear. We've heard you as Queen Elizabeth. Having played, you know, a fictional king and portrayed an actual queen, did it make you think of gender differences between kings and queens?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Queen Elizabeth I) Enough."}
{"id": "1185335174", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Glenda Jackson", "title": "Remembering Oscar-winning actor and British Parliament member Glenda Jackson", "question_index": 13, "text": "We're listening to my 2019 interview with actor and former member of British Parliament Glenda Jackson. She died June 15. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, well, very much so, because certainly as far as Elizabeth was concerned - I mean, let's face it, she'd had the most tumultuous upbringing, hadn't she? I mean, her mother's head was chopped off whe"}
{"id": "1185335174", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Glenda Jackson", "title": "Remembering Oscar-winning actor and British Parliament member Glenda Jackson", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're remembering Oscar, Tony, and Emmy award-winning actor Glenda Jackson. She died June 15 at the age of 87. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with her in 2019 when she was starring on Broadway in a production of \"King Lear\" in the role of King Lear. Jackson had taken a long break from acting, during which she spent 23 years as a member of British Parliament. So you've played kings and queens. You've served in Parliament. You were elected to Parliament in 1992. You've played powerful people, and you've had political power - not kingly or queenly...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, well, very much so, because certainly as far as Elizabeth was concerned - I mean, let's face it, she'd had the most tumultuous upbringing, hadn't she? I mean, her mother's head was chopped off whe"}
{"id": "1185335174", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Glenda Jackson", "title": "Remembering Oscar-winning actor and British Parliament member Glenda Jackson", "question_index": 15, "text": "...Power, but...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no, no."}
{"id": "1185335174", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Glenda Jackson", "title": "Remembering Oscar-winning actor and British Parliament member Glenda Jackson", "question_index": 16, "text": "Yes. OK. I can see what you're saying. You're helping people with constituent services and things like that. But you also stood up against the Iraq war when Tony Blair...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no. Backbenchers - I cannot stress this strongly enough. For me, one of the most humbling experiences was being a member of Parliament. I mean, I give you - I mean, obviously I think it's amaz"}
{"id": "1185335174", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Glenda Jackson", "title": "Remembering Oscar-winning actor and British Parliament member Glenda Jackson", "question_index": 17, "text": "...Joined with President George W. Bush. So, like, you stood up to power in a way that's different from, you know, being an actor. I mean, sure, you might want to stand up and object to direction that you're getting, but it's different than standing up to a prime minister who wants to take your country to war.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "1185335174", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Glenda Jackson", "title": "Remembering Oscar-winning actor and British Parliament member Glenda Jackson", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, as I've had occasion to say, it was the first time in my experience of being a member of Parliament that I had voted against my party's policy. And I presume, rather like murder, once you do it "}
{"id": "1185335174", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Glenda Jackson", "title": "Remembering Oscar-winning actor and British Parliament member Glenda Jackson", "question_index": 19, "text": "Why did you want to serve in Parliament?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...It gets easier after."}
{"id": "1185335174", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Glenda Jackson", "title": "Remembering Oscar-winning actor and British Parliament member Glenda Jackson", "question_index": 20, "text": "What made you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Anything I could have done - I mean, I was a member. I've always voted Labour. I'd been asked by the party to do various things for them, raise money. I once did the worst party political broadcast ev"}
{"id": "1185335174", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Glenda Jackson", "title": "Remembering Oscar-winning actor and British Parliament member Glenda Jackson", "question_index": 21, "text": "As a woman who feels strongly about women's equality - and I assume you consider yourself a feminist - was it disappointing to you that, finally, a woman becomes prime minister and she's so conservative and stands for so many things that you are against?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This woman who said, what had the suffragettes ever done for her? That question, whether there was such a thing as a society - that had destroyed local government in many ways, which, before her power"}
{"id": "1185335174", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Glenda Jackson", "title": "Remembering Oscar-winning actor and British Parliament member Glenda Jackson", "question_index": 22, "text": "Let's hear what you had to say in parliament after Margaret Thatcher died. And this was in 2013, and there were many tributes made in parliament. And this was a day, I think, when most of the Labour members of Parliament stayed away. And so Conservative members were saying - you know, giving many tributes to Margaret Thatcher. And then you stood up and made a pretty scathing speech while Conservative members of Parliament basically jeered you. So let's hear what you had to say.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, the overwhelming disappointment, actually, was that my party didn't win, I mean - do you know what I mean? - even, I mean, at that time. But it was just that she seemed to me to be so ou"}
{"id": "1185335174", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Glenda Jackson", "title": "Remembering Oscar-winning actor and British Parliament member Glenda Jackson", "question_index": 23, "text": "Wow", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It aspired for things as, indeed, one of the former prime ministers who himself had been elevated to the House of Lords spoke about selling off the family silver and people knowing, under those years,"}
{"id": "1185335174", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Glenda Jackson", "title": "Remembering Oscar-winning actor and British Parliament member Glenda Jackson", "question_index": 24, "text": ". So did you expect that reaction when you decided to make those comments?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It aspired for things as, indeed, one of the former prime ministers who himself had been elevated to the House of Lords spoke about selling off the family silver and people knowing, under those years,"}
{"id": "1185335174", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Glenda Jackson", "title": "Remembering Oscar-winning actor and British Parliament member Glenda Jackson", "question_index": 25, "text": "Now, you had said that you always get nervous before...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes, of course. I mean, I'd sat there in the chamber for several hours, as one does for these kind of events, before I was called by the speaker. And, yes, I mean, I sat there, listening to her pa"}
{"id": "1185335174", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Glenda Jackson", "title": "Remembering Oscar-winning actor and British Parliament member Glenda Jackson", "question_index": 26, "text": "...Going on stage. And I'm wondering if that's changed with age in the sense that - I know some people feel, as they get older, that they can take more chances and enjoy things more because...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes."}
{"id": "1185335174", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Glenda Jackson", "title": "Remembering Oscar-winning actor and British Parliament member Glenda Jackson", "question_index": 27, "text": "Well, it's been a pleasure to speak with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did a play with the most marvelous actress called Mona Washbourne. It was called \"Stevie.\" It was about the poet Stevie Smith. And she - I think Mona came, I think, from a theatrical family. She'd c"}
{"id": "1185335174", "date": "2023-07-03", "guest": "Glenda Jackson", "title": "Remembering Oscar-winning actor and British Parliament member Glenda Jackson", "question_index": 28, "text": "My interview with Glenda Jackson was recorded in 2019. She died June 15. She was 87. After a break, we'll go back to 2005 and listen to my interview with Neil Diamond. The current Broadway show \"A Beautiful Noise\" is about Diamond and features his music. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you."}
{"id": "1185342616", "date": "2023-07-04", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Janelle Mon\u00e1e explores masculine and feminine energies on 'The Age of Pleasure'", "question_index": 0, "text": "That's my guest, Janelle Monae, from her new album, \"Metropolis.\" Janelle Monae, welcome to FRESH AIR. I really like your music. Now, what we're hearing is a very theatrical production, and it's all about a character. You have this whole, like, cyborg fantasy. You have this whole futuristic fantasy that's enacted on your album, and in your videos, you were in costumes. And, I mean, it's theater. And in fact, your idea was to be in theater. You wanted to be in Broadway musicals. And before ending up in Atlanta, where you live now, you went to New York after high school to study music there and hope to get onto Broadway. Why did - why was Broadway your first ambition?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I'm an alien from outer space (outer space). I'm a cyber girl without a face, heart or a mind (I'm a product of the metal, I'm a product of metal, I'm a product of the man). See, see, see, s"}
{"id": "1185342616", "date": "2023-07-04", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Janelle Mon\u00e1e explores masculine and feminine energies on 'The Age of Pleasure'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Now, I want to play another track from your new CD, \"Metropolis.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I've always loved, you know, music and theater, so the first thing was to combine those two. But in high school, I was heavily involved in musical theater productions, and it was a time where I "}
{"id": "1185342616", "date": "2023-07-04", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Janelle Mon\u00e1e explores masculine and feminine energies on 'The Age of Pleasure'", "question_index": 2, "text": "And this is called \"Sincerely, Jane.\" And this isn't about being in outer space. This is about being in the inner city, where there's problems with crack and gangbanging. And is there a story behind writing this song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "1185342616", "date": "2023-07-04", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Janelle Mon\u00e1e explores masculine and feminine energies on 'The Age of Pleasure'", "question_index": 3, "text": "One more thing before we hear \"Sincerely, Jane\" - the arrangement on this is fantastic. There's, like, French horns and timpani.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was a letter written to me from my mother. I had left, you know, Kansas. I grew up in Wyandotte County, one of the poorest counties in Kansas. And, you know, at an early age, I was exposed to"}
{"id": "1185342616", "date": "2023-07-04", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Janelle Mon\u00e1e explores masculine and feminine energies on 'The Age of Pleasure'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Can you talk about the arrangement and why you wanted something this big behind you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1185342616", "date": "2023-07-04", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Janelle Mon\u00e1e explores masculine and feminine energies on 'The Age of Pleasure'", "question_index": 5, "text": "OK. Well, let's hear it. This is \"Sincerely, Jane\" from Janelle Monae's new CD, \"Metropolis.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Well, I've always had a deep admiration for the orchestra, and I visit here in Atlanta, as often as I possibly can, the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra. You know, we've been a huge supporter, too, of"}
{"id": "1185342616", "date": "2023-07-04", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Janelle Mon\u00e1e explores masculine and feminine energies on 'The Age of Pleasure'", "question_index": 6, "text": "That's Janelle Monae from her new CD, \"Metropolis.\" So how did you actually get out from your neighborhood in Kansas City to study in New York? Did you get a scholarship?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Left the city. My mama, she said, don't come back home. These kids around killing each other, they lost they minds. They gone. They quitting school, making babies and can barely read. Some g"}
{"id": "1185342616", "date": "2023-07-04", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Janelle Mon\u00e1e explores masculine and feminine energies on 'The Age of Pleasure'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Did you have an audition? And if so, what did you sing for the audition?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I did. I did. I got a really cool scholarship for the American Musical and Dramatics Academy. And it was the only school I had applied to, so, I mean, I was really like, OK, hopefully this works"}
{"id": "1185342616", "date": "2023-07-04", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Janelle Mon\u00e1e explores masculine and feminine energies on 'The Age of Pleasure'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Can you sing a few bars of that song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wow. I did. I had an audition, and I sang - what did I sing? I was - I want to say I was Cinderella in the production in my high school. And so there was a song called \"In My Own Little Corner,\" which"}
{"id": "1185342616", "date": "2023-07-04", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Janelle Mon\u00e1e explores masculine and feminine energies on 'The Age of Pleasure'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well, I can see why you related to that. That sounds exactly like the story you've been telling us about your life", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was (Singing) In my own little corner, in my own little chair, I can be whatever I want to be. On the wing of my fancy, I can fly anywhere, and the world will open its arms to me. So yeah."}
{"id": "1185342616", "date": "2023-07-04", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Janelle Mon\u00e1e explores masculine and feminine energies on 'The Age of Pleasure'", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was (Singing) In my own little corner, in my own little chair, I can be whatever I want to be. On the wing of my fancy, I can fly anywhere, and the world will open its arms to me. So yeah."}
{"id": "1185342616", "date": "2023-07-04", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Janelle Mon\u00e1e explores masculine and feminine energies on 'The Age of Pleasure'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Now I want to play another song, and this is from an album that you released. I don't know if it was on your own label or what, but it was before your new album. And it's called, Janelle Monae, \"The Audition.\" And this track is called \"Cindi,\" and it sounds a little like the story you're telling us about somebody who wants to sing and who wants to be a star and doesn't really find a place for herself.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. On today's show, we're listening to interviews Terry Gross recorded with singer, songwriter and actor Janelle Monae. Let's get back to their conversation, recorded in 2009."}
{"id": "1185342616", "date": "2023-07-04", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Janelle Mon\u00e1e explores masculine and feminine energies on 'The Age of Pleasure'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, let's hear it. And this is from Janelle Monae's first album, a self-released CD called \"The Audition.\" And this is \"Cindi.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Cindi is a song that is just about appreciating oneself. There was a point in time in my life where I searched. And even when I got into the recording industry, there was a way that people, you know, "}
{"id": "1185342616", "date": "2023-07-04", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Janelle Mon\u00e1e explores masculine and feminine energies on 'The Age of Pleasure'", "question_index": 13, "text": "That's \"Cindi\" from Janelle Monae's first self-released CD called \"The Audition.\" Now, as as we can hear, you have a voice that really could have made it on Broadway. Like, you have a beautiful, you know, legit-sounding voice. But what you're singing now is - in a beautiful voice - is, like, your own breed of hip-hop. Did you feel like you had to change your voice in any way to - when you changed your aspirations from Broadway to hip-hop?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) As I search for a home and a place to belong, I find it hard to fit in. I meet lots of pretty girls in this fantasy world, waiting for their turn to shine. So I try to be Cindi in hopes that"}
{"id": "1185342616", "date": "2023-07-04", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Janelle Mon\u00e1e explores masculine and feminine energies on 'The Age of Pleasure'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Janelle Monae, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, no, I actually didn't. You know, I don't really categorize anything that I do or say, oh, you know, this is the genre that I'm trying to go into. And, you know, still, to this day, I d"}
{"id": "1185342616", "date": "2023-07-04", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Janelle Mon\u00e1e explores masculine and feminine energies on 'The Age of Pleasure'", "question_index": 15, "text": "In \"Dirty Computer\" - your 2018 album \"Dirty Computer\" - you play Jane 57821 in a futuristic society where people who don't conform are considered dirty computers, and they have to be cleaned, which means, like, their memories are cleaned, too. So did you feel some resonance with that aspect of the story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. Janelle Monae is a singer, songwriter and actor. And when she performed the opening song at the 2020 Oscars, she electrified the audience. It was an acknowledgemen"}
{"id": "1185342616", "date": "2023-07-04", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Janelle Mon\u00e1e explores masculine and feminine energies on 'The Age of Pleasure'", "question_index": 16, "text": "And in \"Dirty Computer,\" you were dirty if you looked different, showed any form of opposition at all. If you were dirty, it was only a matter of time. And you're told to recite, I am a dirty computer. I am ready to be clean. And I know you've said you relate to this idea that you created because you felt so marginalized. You felt like such an outsider for so much of your life. I'm wondering how it felt to open the Oscars - to have the opening song on the Oscars and declare your pride to be standing there as a Black queer artist?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. You know, I've been thinking a lot about what it means to live in a world where you are the minority, where you are, you know, part of a marginalized group of people and what happens when those "}
{"id": "1185342616", "date": "2023-07-04", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Janelle Mon\u00e1e explores masculine and feminine energies on 'The Age of Pleasure'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Was it also an issue for you earlier, though, to talk about your own story and your own issues? I mean, talking about your father's story and his addiction and - I don't know, I'm thinking maybe you didn't want to draw him into that, that maybe he wanted more privacy. And it's hard when your story is so intimately intersecting with somebody else's story, and that story doesn't want to be public.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, I think I made the statement, you know, throughout the music in \"Dirty Computer\" - and if, you know, you listen, even, to my first album, I have a song on there called \"Mushrooms & R"}
{"id": "1185342616", "date": "2023-07-04", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Janelle Mon\u00e1e explores masculine and feminine energies on 'The Age of Pleasure'", "question_index": 18, "text": "And it limits your ability to tell your own story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1185342616", "date": "2023-07-04", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Janelle Mon\u00e1e explores masculine and feminine energies on 'The Age of Pleasure'", "question_index": 19, "text": "That's really funny.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A story behind the song - I mean, I wanted to make sure that if anyone felt like because they saw me in my tuxedo or saw me fully clothed and used me for, like, respectability politics, this was the s"}
{"id": "1185342616", "date": "2023-07-04", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Janelle Mon\u00e1e explores masculine and feminine energies on 'The Age of Pleasure'", "question_index": 20, "text": "You know, I have to say, when you say anybody who would confuse your tuxedo with the politics of respectability, like, I never would have thought of that tuxedo - I think, like, when a woman wears a tuxedo, it's a little different from when a man wears a tuxedo. And you're wearing a tuxedo with this kind of off-kilter pompadour doing James Brown moves. So I just think it would - most people would find it hard to equate that with the politics of respectability.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1185342616", "date": "2023-07-04", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Janelle Mon\u00e1e explores masculine and feminine energies on 'The Age of Pleasure'", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you'd think. I mean, there is a category of folks who think because you're fully clothed - and not understanding my story, which was to wear a uniform, to pay homage to my working class parents "}
{"id": "1185342616", "date": "2023-07-04", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Janelle Mon\u00e1e explores masculine and feminine energies on 'The Age of Pleasure'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Right. Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know? That's the philosophy."}
{"id": "1185342616", "date": "2023-07-04", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Janelle Mon\u00e1e explores masculine and feminine energies on 'The Age of Pleasure'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Yeah. And for anybody out there who thought that Janelle Monae's style of dressing was about the politics of respectability, this song, \"Make Me Feel,\" is totally sexy and how you look in the film companion to your album when you do this song is also totally sexy. So here is Janelle Monae doing her own song, \"Make Me Feel.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1185342616", "date": "2023-07-04", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Janelle Mon\u00e1e explores masculine and feminine energies on 'The Age of Pleasure'", "question_index": 24, "text": "That's Janelle Monae doing her song \"Make Me Feel\" from her 2018 album, \"Dirty Computer.\" And that's her latest album. There's definitely a Prince influence in that song. Did you sample him in that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Yeah, baby, don't make me spell it out for you. All of the feelings that I've got for you can't be explained, but I can try for you. Yeah, baby, don't make me spell it out for you. You keep "}
{"id": "1185342616", "date": "2023-07-04", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Janelle Mon\u00e1e explores masculine and feminine energies on 'The Age of Pleasure'", "question_index": 25, "text": "How did you get to meet him and work with him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I did not. I didn't sample him. Prince, however, was working with me on \"Dirty Computer\" before he transitioned on, and I was in the middle. It was difficult for me to finish the album because of "}
{"id": "1185342616", "date": "2023-07-04", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Janelle Mon\u00e1e explores masculine and feminine energies on 'The Age of Pleasure'", "question_index": 26, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had a show, and this was around my first - before \"The ArchAndroid\" came out. I had done an EP called \"Metropolis.\" I had just gotten finished performing. I opened up for Raphael Saadiq. And I had a"}
{"id": "1185342616", "date": "2023-07-04", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Janelle Mon\u00e1e explores masculine and feminine energies on 'The Age of Pleasure'", "question_index": 27, "text": "You know, I think some people were surprised, like, oh, Janelle Monae, like, a musician, a singer, she became an actress. But, really, that was always your goal. I mean, you went to New York. You grew up in Kansas City, Kan. You went to New York to study at The American Musical and Dramatics Academy. At the time, you wanted to be in Broadway musicals. So, I mean, your goal initially was to combine music and acting. So let's start with why Broadway musicals? Why was that what you were aiming for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're listening back to an interview from our archives with singer and actor Janelle Monae, who released a new album this month. Terry interviewed Monae in 2020."}
{"id": "1185342616", "date": "2023-07-04", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Janelle Mon\u00e1e explores masculine and feminine energies on 'The Age of Pleasure'", "question_index": 28, "text": "Oh, wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I knew I just didn't want to not sing. And, at that time, I was - before I went to study at AMDA, I was always in music - musicals and in music classes, the a cappella choir. And I was competing"}
{"id": "1185342616", "date": "2023-07-04", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Janelle Mon\u00e1e explores masculine and feminine energies on 'The Age of Pleasure'", "question_index": 29, "text": "What kind of monologue?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1185342616", "date": "2023-07-04", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Janelle Mon\u00e1e explores masculine and feminine energies on 'The Age of Pleasure'", "question_index": 30, "text": "Were you concerned that being Black would limit the roles you'd be considered for on Broadway?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It just depended on what we were reading at that time and what my teacher would help me pick. I was also into Shakespeare, so I would do after-school Shakespearean programs. And, you know, I was alway"}
{"id": "1185342616", "date": "2023-07-04", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Janelle Mon\u00e1e explores masculine and feminine energies on 'The Age of Pleasure'", "question_index": 31, "text": "Didn't they understand that your mother was working, I mean, that it wasn't your issue?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For sure. For sure. It was partly one of the reasons why I did not want to go forward with it anymore. And it was because I just - I didn't see a lot of those leading roles that I could sink my teeth "}
{"id": "1185342616", "date": "2023-07-04", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Janelle Mon\u00e1e explores masculine and feminine energies on 'The Age of Pleasure'", "question_index": 32, "text": "It was that she...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That didn't..."}
{"id": "1185342616", "date": "2023-07-04", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Janelle Mon\u00e1e explores masculine and feminine energies on 'The Age of Pleasure'", "question_index": 33, "text": "Didn't matter. Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That didn't matter."}
{"id": "1185342616", "date": "2023-07-04", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Janelle Mon\u00e1e explores masculine and feminine energies on 'The Age of Pleasure'", "question_index": 34, "text": "So when you did start your movie career - I don't even know how this happened. You were in two films that were nominated for best picture, like \"Hidden Figures\" and \"Moonlight,\" which actually won in that category. How did you go from not having an acting career to being in such - in films that had such a big impact?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It didn't matter. And I hold no hard feelings. So if anyone's listening - like, I've actually spoken to some of them. But it actually changed my life. It put me on a path of determination, you k"}
{"id": "1185342616", "date": "2023-07-04", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Janelle Mon\u00e1e explores masculine and feminine energies on 'The Age of Pleasure'", "question_index": 35, "text": "There's a song I want to play from your first album, and I played this the first time we talked, which was when your first album came out. And the song is called \"Sincerely, Jane.\" And you had told me then that it was based on a letter that your mother wrote to you. Before we hear the song - and I really love this track - can you tell us about the letter that your mother wrote to you that inspired the song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I read \"Moonlight,\" I knew that that was a special film. You know, I didn't know that it was going to win an Oscar because I just thought that - I don't know. I didn't think that, like, a cast of"}
{"id": "1185342616", "date": "2023-07-04", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Janelle Mon\u00e1e explores masculine and feminine energies on 'The Age of Pleasure'", "question_index": 36, "text": "Whoa. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I moved away - I want to say when I moved to New York for college, yeah, she had - we would write letters to each other, and she would just keep me posted on what was going on. And I'm from Wyand"}
{"id": "1185342616", "date": "2023-07-04", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Janelle Mon\u00e1e explores masculine and feminine energies on 'The Age of Pleasure'", "question_index": 37, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And lots of aunts and - you know what I'm saying?"}
{"id": "1185342616", "date": "2023-07-04", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Janelle Mon\u00e1e explores masculine and feminine energies on 'The Age of Pleasure'", "question_index": 38, "text": "Well, I want to play this song 'cause - I know it might not mean that much to you anymore, but I think it's really great. And another thing that's great about this song is the arrangement. I mean, you have timpani and French horns, and I remember you telling me when we had the first interview that you used to go to the Atlanta Symphony Orchestra a lot and listen to them. And I think it's really great that as - you know, as a young artist, that you were ambitious enough to find a way to work all of that in.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's your own community. You're swimming together. You're singing together. You're popping fireworks together. You are watching movies together. I mean, I used to watch a lot of films - scary movies. "}
{"id": "1185342616", "date": "2023-07-04", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Janelle Mon\u00e1e explores masculine and feminine energies on 'The Age of Pleasure'", "question_index": 39, "text": "Janelle Monae, thank you so much. And I look forward to hearing and seeing more of you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. You know, I guess one of the things that I love - and then when I look back, I'm realizing that there were just, you know, hints of eclecticism and just, like, freedom, you know? Even thou"}
{"id": "1186185608", "date": "2023-07-06", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the recent SCOTUS session renewed questions about the Court's legitimacy", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. In analyzing the Supreme Court term that ended last week, my guest Adam Liptak wrote, the Supreme Court's conservative supermajority has been moving at a brisk pace to take on some of the thorniest and most divisive issues in American society, including abortion, guns and race. He added that this term has renewed questions about whether the court's approach threatens the stability of the law and the court's legitimacy. This term, the court ruled against affirmative action and gay rights and struck down the Biden administration's student loan forgiveness plan. Nevertheless, Liptak says the entire story of the most recent term is considerably more complicated than that of the previous one, which had seemed to establish an unyielding conservative juggernaut characterized by impatience and ambition and built to last. Adam Liptak covers the Supreme Court for The New York Times. We recorded our interview yesterday morning. Adam Liptak, welcome back to FRESH AIR. So despite these blockbuster rulings that basically ended affirmative action, limited gay rights, ended the Biden administration student loan forgiveness plan - these are all decisions in which conservatives were in the majority - you say the liberal wing did better than expected. And even David Cole, the national legal director of the ACLU, said losses in affirmative action and gay rights cases were unprecedented setbacks for equality, but beyond those cases, civil liberties and civil rights fared surprisingly well, better than anyone predicted. That's really surprising for me to hear. I did not notice that. So in what areas did civil liberties and civil rights fare surprisingly well?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1186185608", "date": "2023-07-06", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the recent SCOTUS session renewed questions about the Court's legitimacy", "question_index": 1, "text": "There are other ways in which you say this term was more complicated than last term. Last year, Chief Justice Roberts seemed to have diminished in power, while Thomas' power expanded. How did that look this year?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, Terry, I would start by emphasizing that the blockbusters that ended the term - 6-3 decisions along the classical lines of the six Republican appointees in the majority, the three liberal appointe"}
{"id": "1186185608", "date": "2023-07-06", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the recent SCOTUS session renewed questions about the Court's legitimacy", "question_index": 2, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This term, the two members of the court most apt to be in dissent were the two most conservative justices, Clarence Thomas and Samuel Alito. So that alone tells you something. I mean, one way to think"}
{"id": "1186185608", "date": "2023-07-06", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the recent SCOTUS session renewed questions about the Court's legitimacy", "question_index": 3, "text": "What's an example of one of those incremental decisions that will probably continue to move to the right, but just more slowly?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And here - we still have two YOLO justices in the new term, but there's a sense of tapping on the brakes, of incrementalism, of moving to the right more slowly by what might be said to be the center o"}
{"id": "1186185608", "date": "2023-07-06", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the recent SCOTUS session renewed questions about the Court's legitimacy", "question_index": 4, "text": "I wouldn't categorize these necessarily as big victories, then...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I can give two examples. There was an important Voting Rights Act case which involved whether Alabama should have two voting districts for Congress in which Black voters make up a majority, as a lo"}
{"id": "1186185608", "date": "2023-07-06", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the recent SCOTUS session renewed questions about the Court's legitimacy", "question_index": 5, "text": "...Because they're coming back. So let's look at some of this term's decisions. Let's start with affirmative action. Would you describe the outcome of this case?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1186185608", "date": "2023-07-06", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the recent SCOTUS session renewed questions about the Court's legitimacy", "question_index": 6, "text": "Do you understand why it should apply to the military and not to the education system, which is the future of our country?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The court said that race-conscious admissions in higher education was unlawful. It said the admissions programs at Harvard, a private university subject to a federal statute, and the University of Nor"}
{"id": "1186185608", "date": "2023-07-06", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the recent SCOTUS session renewed questions about the Court's legitimacy", "question_index": 7, "text": "But what about the fact that we need educated people who - you know, with college degrees or advanced degrees who are Black and Latino and Muslim? We need everybody to be as educated as possible for our society to function in the future. Like, why doesn't that count?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can say what the reasoning would be. I'm not sure most people would find it entirely convincing. So the question is, if on the one side of the balance is ordinarily prohibited government distinction"}
{"id": "1186185608", "date": "2023-07-06", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the recent SCOTUS session renewed questions about the Court's legitimacy", "question_index": 8, "text": "Was that taken into account in any of the arguments?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it..."}
{"id": "1186185608", "date": "2023-07-06", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the recent SCOTUS session renewed questions about the Court's legitimacy", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Adam Liptak. He covers the Supreme Court for The New York Times. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This case was argued as thoroughly as a case can be argued, and, certainly, people made the point that elite education from selective colleges and universities - that's a relatively small number. Most"}
{"id": "1186185608", "date": "2023-07-06", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the recent SCOTUS session renewed questions about the Court's legitimacy", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Adam Liptak. He covers the Supreme Court for The New York Times. We're looking back on the term that ended last week. When we left off, we were talking about the decision that basically struck down affirmative action. So racial quotas were already outlawed in the Bakke decision in 1978. And that's why, like, diversity was emphasized after that, because you can't have quotas. Now diversity has been struck down, too. And a lot of people have raised this question, but what about, like, legacy admissions to elite institutions? It's basically perpetuating a cycle of wealthy white people admitted to these institutions because legacy admissions means, like, if your parents were in, that gives you a leg up to be admitted yourself. So it's perpetuating a cycle that advantages white people with money and disadvantages other people.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This case was argued as thoroughly as a case can be argued, and, certainly, people made the point that elite education from selective colleges and universities - that's a relatively small number. Most"}
{"id": "1186185608", "date": "2023-07-06", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the recent SCOTUS session renewed questions about the Court's legitimacy", "question_index": 11, "text": "So Roberts' majority decision cited two precedents. Well, he cited the 14th Amendment to justify it, and that was ratified just three years after the Civil War ended. It was ratified in 1868, and it gave citizenship to all people born in the U.S., including formerly enslaved people. And the Equal Protection Clause said no state can deny any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of its laws. So he used that to say it's denying people who aren't Black equal protection. And then he also cited Brown v. Board of Ed, which ended legal public school segregation. And he said that that decision showed that, quote, \"the time for making distinctions based on race had passed.\" So the purpose of the 14th Amendment really was to help people who had been formerly enslaved, and the purpose of Brown v. Board of Ed was to desegregate schools. How did he manage to turn those kind of on their head? Am I right in saying that he turned them on their head?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hard to argue with that. Legacy admissions as a policy matter are really hard to defend. Universities like them because alumni give them money, and they get disappointed if the kids don't get in and t"}
{"id": "1186185608", "date": "2023-07-06", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the recent SCOTUS session renewed questions about the Court's legitimacy", "question_index": 12, "text": "There were two cases about affirmative action. One had to do with the University of North Carolina and one with Harvard. Both cases were brought by a group called Students for Fair Admissions that was founded by someone named Edward Blum, who's a legal activist who's organized a lot of lawsuits challenging race-conscious admissions policies, as well as voting rights laws. Tell us a little bit about him and his group.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You and Justice Sotomayor agree that that is a weird reading of the 14th Amendment and Brown v. Board of Education and its legacy. The chief justice draws a different lesson. He says the Constitution "}
{"id": "1186185608", "date": "2023-07-06", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the recent SCOTUS session renewed questions about the Court's legitimacy", "question_index": 13, "text": "How might the affirmative action decision affect other institutions that aren't universities and colleges? For instance, you say it might affect hiring practices.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He is a very successful legal entrepreneur. He's not a lawyer. He is, by his own description, a one-man show. He's raised money from conservative groups and organized these lawsuits and has met with r"}
{"id": "1186185608", "date": "2023-07-06", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the recent SCOTUS session renewed questions about the Court's legitimacy", "question_index": 14, "text": "Let's talk about the case involving the website designer, Lorie Smith, who was starting up her website design company and challenged a Colorado anti-discrimination law that included outlawing discrimination against gay people. She feared that that Colorado law would force her to do things that she didn't want to do - for example, creating a gay wedding website for a gay couple, which I think she said her religion would basically prohibit her from doing, because she doesn't believe in gay marriage based on her religious beliefs. So this was an unusual case in the sense that, like, the business didn't even exist yet. What gave her standing to challenge a law when she hadn't really started the business yet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's already unlawful to take account of race in hiring decisions. But many companies have diversity programs that do what they can within the law to make sure that their workforces are diverse. I don"}
{"id": "1186185608", "date": "2023-07-06", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the recent SCOTUS session renewed questions about the Court's legitimacy", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well, let's take another break here, and then we'll talk some more about the Supreme Court term that just ended. My guest is Adam Liptak. He covers the court for The New York Times. We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What Justice Gorsuch writing for the majority, said - and this is a real doctrine - is that there are circumstances where if you authentically have a credible fear of punishment for exercising a const"}
{"id": "1186185608", "date": "2023-07-06", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the recent SCOTUS session renewed questions about the Court's legitimacy", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Adam Liptak about the Supreme Court term that ended last week. He covers the court for The New York Times. When we left off, we were talking about the case involving the web designer who didn't want to design websites for people who were gay and were getting married, and the court ruled in her favor that having to do so would violate her right to free speech. There was one ask that was - one document saying, you know, I'm part of a gay couple, and we want a gay wedding website. We want you to design it. But that document has been challenged as being completely bogus. Tell us about that document.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What Justice Gorsuch writing for the majority, said - and this is a real doctrine - is that there are circumstances where if you authentically have a credible fear of punishment for exercising a const"}
{"id": "1186185608", "date": "2023-07-06", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the recent SCOTUS session renewed questions about the Court's legitimacy", "question_index": 17, "text": "Justice Gorsuch wrote the majority opinion and said that the First Amendment protected the web designer from being compelled to express views she opposed. And you say that this case was framed as freedom of speech versus gay rights. But the designer - the web designer is Christian, and she cited her Christian religion as the reason why she can't make a website for people who want to get gay married because her religion opposes that. So do you think that that advantaged her with the conservative supermajority because it was based on Christian beliefs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The day after Lorie Smith files suit and there's some press coverage of the suit, someone makes a request on her website, someone named Stuart, saying more or less that Stuart would like to have a wed"}
{"id": "1186185608", "date": "2023-07-06", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the recent SCOTUS session renewed questions about the Court's legitimacy", "question_index": 18, "text": "What do you think the decision might be extended to cover?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think both sides of the dispute helped her. So as a legal matter, it's about her free speech rights, and it doesn't matter whether her beliefs were grounded in religion or something else. And it app"}
{"id": "1186185608", "date": "2023-07-06", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the recent SCOTUS session renewed questions about the Court's legitimacy", "question_index": 19, "text": "And this really limits governmental anti-discrimination laws. It limits the scope of it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The logic of the decision would allow any business engaged in expression. So that limits it quite a lot. I mean, if you're selling widgets or tires or you're Walmart, this has nothing to do with you. "}
{"id": "1186185608", "date": "2023-07-06", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the recent SCOTUS session renewed questions about the Court's legitimacy", "question_index": 20, "text": "One of the decisions that was won by liberals during this term was the decision about the independent state legislature. Would you describe what that is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. We - from the civil rights era on, we've come to a societal understanding that if you're a business open to the public, you can't discriminate based on - and it varies with the statutes and loc"}
{"id": "1186185608", "date": "2023-07-06", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the recent SCOTUS session renewed questions about the Court's legitimacy", "question_index": 21, "text": "How?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a theory, a quite radical theory, that - relying on a provision of the Constitution that says rules for federal elections shall be - I'm paraphrasing - set by the legislature thereof, the legis"}
{"id": "1186185608", "date": "2023-07-06", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the recent SCOTUS session renewed questions about the Court's legitimacy", "question_index": 22, "text": "And Chief Justice Roberts, in his majority decision, wrote that the Constitution does not exempt state legislatures from the ordinary constraints imposed by state law. In other words, the Constitution doesn't exempt state legislatures from being overruled by the state Supreme Court saying, no, what you did, what you just passed was unconstitutional.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It would have given state legislatures the power, for instance - but only as a for instance - to gerrymander to a fare-thee-well a congressional voting district to advantage their own party. It would "}
{"id": "1186185608", "date": "2023-07-06", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the recent SCOTUS session renewed questions about the Court's legitimacy", "question_index": 23, "text": "So another election-related decision was that the Supreme Court rejected a voter map in Alabama's redistricting after the 2020 census that would have redistricted in such a way that Black voters, Black people, would only have, like, one seat in the House. So that was a victory for liberals. It was a victory for Black voters. And Justice Roberts, who is usually not in agreement with race playing a role in decisions, he agreed that race could play a role in redistricting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a hell of an idea, really, that the legislature of a state, which is created by the state constitution, should not be bound by the state constitution."}
{"id": "1186185608", "date": "2023-07-06", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the recent SCOTUS session renewed questions about the Court's legitimacy", "question_index": 24, "text": "Some people are saying that this decision could be a determining factor in who controls the House in the next election because Republicans are likely to lose at least one seat because of this decision.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This was a real surprise. Nobody - almost nobody - thought it would come out this way. And if it were to come out this way, almost nobody thought Chief Justice Roberts, as you say, Terry, who's been h"}
{"id": "1186185608", "date": "2023-07-06", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the recent SCOTUS session renewed questions about the Court's legitimacy", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well, let's take another break here and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Adam Liptak. He covers the Supreme Court for The New York Times. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And the logic of the decision will almost certainly affect Louisiana, also, an additional minority voting district there. And, you know, I mean, there's such a strong correlation between minori"}
{"id": "1186185608", "date": "2023-07-06", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the recent SCOTUS session renewed questions about the Court's legitimacy", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Adam Liptak, who covers the Supreme Court for The New York Times. And we're talking about the term that ended last week. How did the Biden administration do this term?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And the logic of the decision will almost certainly affect Louisiana, also, an additional minority voting district there. And, you know, I mean, there's such a strong correlation between minori"}
{"id": "1186185608", "date": "2023-07-06", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the recent SCOTUS session renewed questions about the Court's legitimacy", "question_index": 27, "text": "So in Chief Justice Roberts' decision, he wrote that a mass debt cancellation program of such significance required clear approval by Congress, and his decision conforms to what's known as the major questions doctrine. What is this major questions doctrine?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they lost the biggest case, the student loan case. That was one of the most expensive proposed executive actions in history. It would have forgiven more than $400 billion of student debt. And by"}
{"id": "1186185608", "date": "2023-07-06", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the recent SCOTUS session renewed questions about the Court's legitimacy", "question_index": 28, "text": "You question whether this doctrine is actually a doctrine, per se. So what is your question based on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The major questions doctrine is a court-created rule of statutory interpretation that says if Congress is going to delegate authority to the executive branch on a major political or economic question,"}
{"id": "1186185608", "date": "2023-07-06", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the recent SCOTUS session renewed questions about the Court's legitimacy", "question_index": 29, "text": "So now that the Supreme Court has cited this doctrine, does it become more of a doctrine?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a rule of statutory interpretation that's played some role in some form in earlier cases, but it hasn't been invoked by name in a majority decision until last year's big climate change case, whic"}
{"id": "1186185608", "date": "2023-07-06", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the recent SCOTUS session renewed questions about the Court's legitimacy", "question_index": 30, "text": "What might the ripple effects of this decision be beyond student loans?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, so doctrine is a funny word. There's a good law review article essentially exploring this question of, what is a doctrine? A doctrine is what the court - Supreme Court says it is. It doesn't come"}
{"id": "1186185608", "date": "2023-07-06", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the recent SCOTUS session renewed questions about the Court's legitimacy", "question_index": 31, "text": "Well, let's take another short break here and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Adam Liptak. He covers the Supreme Court for The New York Times. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If you take the doctrine seriously, it makes it harder for presidents of either party to act unilaterally and requires Congress to speak clearly and to anticipate, you know, maybe decades into the fut"}
{"id": "1186185608", "date": "2023-07-06", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the recent SCOTUS session renewed questions about the Court's legitimacy", "question_index": 32, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Adam Liptak. He covers the Supreme Court for The New York Times. We're looking back on the term that just ended. Let's talk about some of the conflicts or potential conflicts of interest of some of the Supreme Court members and ethical questions that have been raised about them. Justice Alito took a trip to a remote part of Alaska on a private jet owned by Paul Singer, who's a hedge fund manager, very wealthy. He's a Republican donor. Singer apparently has had cases before the court. He was involved in cases that were before the court. And Alito didn't recuse himself from those cases.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If you take the doctrine seriously, it makes it harder for presidents of either party to act unilaterally and requires Congress to speak clearly and to anticipate, you know, maybe decades into the fut"}
{"id": "1186185608", "date": "2023-07-06", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the recent SCOTUS session renewed questions about the Court's legitimacy", "question_index": 33, "text": "One of Alito's justifications for taking this paid-for trip paid for by Paul Singer, the hedge fund manager and Republican donor, was that it would have been an empty seat, so it wouldn't have cost Paul Singer anything, so it didn't matter. I would like the same to apply to me when I'm flying someplace or taking the Amtrak and there's an empty seat. I'd rather not pay for it because it would have been empty if I wasn't on it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, this whole thing is troubling on two levels. Justice Alito didn't disclose this significant gift, and then he didn't recuse himself from a case in which Paul Singer's companies were involved. He"}
{"id": "1186185608", "date": "2023-07-06", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the recent SCOTUS session renewed questions about the Court's legitimacy", "question_index": 34, "text": "Let's move on to Justice Clarence Thomas. And there were several ethical stories involving him this year, involving his wife, Ginni Thomas, involving a Republican megadonor who's also a friend, Harlan Crow. Do you want to just sum up the ethical questions that now surround Clarence Thomas?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That argument from Justice Alito did not strike many people as a serious one."}
{"id": "1186185608", "date": "2023-07-06", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the recent SCOTUS session renewed questions about the Court's legitimacy", "question_index": 35, "text": "Do you have any indication of whether other justices on the Supreme Court are questioning Alito's, but even more so, Thomas' ethical sense?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess there are two sets of them. And as with the information about Justice Alito, the reporting on Justice Thomas has come from the news organization ProPublica. And they demonstrated in a series o"}
{"id": "1186185608", "date": "2023-07-06", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the recent SCOTUS session renewed questions about the Court's legitimacy", "question_index": 36, "text": "Why is there no code of ethics for the Supreme Court justices when there are codes of ethics for judges?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's been no direct response from the court directed to particular justices. Chief Justice Roberts plainly seems concerned, and made a statement accepting an award a few weeks ago, that the court r"}
{"id": "1186185608", "date": "2023-07-06", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the recent SCOTUS session renewed questions about the Court's legitimacy", "question_index": 37, "text": "They're the highest court in the land. Like, they are the Supreme Court. And if they don't abide by ethics, then what does it say about the ethics of the decisions and of the court itself? I mean, they're supposed to be monitoring everybody else's ethics.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There are federal statutes that apply to the justices on disclosure and recusal. So it's not as though they're completely unbounded. But the general code of ethics that applies to all federal judges d"}
{"id": "1186185608", "date": "2023-07-06", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the recent SCOTUS session renewed questions about the Court's legitimacy", "question_index": 38, "text": "You know, at the same time, some members of the court might be ethically challenged. Many legal experts think the court is expanding its own power. So if that's true, if there are people on the court who are ethically challenged and, at the same time, the court is expanding its power, that seems like a very questionable combination.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Supreme Court should be a role model. The Supreme Court should be above reproach. The Supreme Court should be the last place we should look for ethics scandals, and yet they seem to arise almost w"}
{"id": "1186185608", "date": "2023-07-06", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the recent SCOTUS session renewed questions about the Court's legitimacy", "question_index": 39, "text": "Adam Liptak, thank you so much for talking with us. I really appreciate it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's not a great combination. And maybe the two things move together because if you have the self-confidence to think you can decide your own ethics principles, you probably also have the self"}
{"id": "1186185608", "date": "2023-07-06", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How the recent SCOTUS session renewed questions about the Court's legitimacy", "question_index": 40, "text": "Adam Liptak covers the Supreme Court for The New York Times. We recorded our interview yesterday. If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. And don't forget, you can subscribe to our newsletter, which has behind-the-scenes stories, staff recommendations, links and a good supply of funny asides from our producers Seth and Molly, who write the newsletter. You can subscribe at whyy.org/freshair. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Ann Marie Baldonado, Therese Madden, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. It's always a treat to be here."}
{"id": "1186187590", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Jack Gilford", "title": "Remembering Alan Arkin, an Oscar- and Tony-winning actor/filmmaker", "question_index": 0, "text": "Has that been one of the difficult things about performing - learning to figure out and then to accept what your limitations are?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I keep thinking that when I change media, something new and wonderful is going to happen, and I'm going to break through the limits of my own personality, and it never seems to happen. I look at my wr"}
{"id": "1186187590", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Jack Gilford", "title": "Remembering Alan Arkin, an Oscar- and Tony-winning actor/filmmaker", "question_index": 1, "text": "What's wrong with seeing yourself in a role, though?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I never realized that until recently, but I think that, well, for me, one of the goals is to be something more than what I am. And no matter how far afield I think I'm going, in retrospect, I lo"}
{"id": "1186187590", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Jack Gilford", "title": "Remembering Alan Arkin, an Oscar- and Tony-winning actor/filmmaker", "question_index": 2, "text": "Do you think that the impulse to act comes in part from wanting to get out of yourself, transcend yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's not the idea of doing it. I think originally that is. People - I guess people want to perform initially because they want to be seen - hey, look at me. Look what I'm doing. But then once in a w"}
{"id": "1186187590", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Jack Gilford", "title": "Remembering Alan Arkin, an Oscar- and Tony-winning actor/filmmaker", "question_index": 3, "text": "When you were growing up, was there anyone in your family or in your neighborhood who was theatrical in the way they live their life? I don't mean that they were necessarily on the stage, but they had this sense of the theater of life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. I think for a lot of people. I don't think they phrase it that poetically initially. I think it's - I think it a lot of times comes out of a kind of self-loathing that a lot of people aren't"}
{"id": "1186187590", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Jack Gilford", "title": "Remembering Alan Arkin, an Oscar- and Tony-winning actor/filmmaker", "question_index": 4, "text": "You liked that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Oh, very much so. There was a guy named Sam Kennedy (ph) who was the husband of my mother's best friend, who was the most flamboyant character I'd ever met. He was right out of Sean O'Casey. And"}
{"id": "1186187590", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Jack Gilford", "title": "Remembering Alan Arkin, an Oscar- and Tony-winning actor/filmmaker", "question_index": 5, "text": "Any really colorful speakers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, yeah. But it was very organic. There was nothing artificial about it. It came right from the heart of him."}
{"id": "1186187590", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Jack Gilford", "title": "Remembering Alan Arkin, an Oscar- and Tony-winning actor/filmmaker", "question_index": 6, "text": "Mmm hmm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Speakers?"}
{"id": "1186187590", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Jack Gilford", "title": "Remembering Alan Arkin, an Oscar- and Tony-winning actor/filmmaker", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, him. My father was always very good verbally, and my grandfather was - made speeches for the Masons, so he was very literate. I have a vivid memory of him reading a speech, tears streaming down "}
{"id": "1186187590", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Jack Gilford", "title": "Remembering Alan Arkin, an Oscar- and Tony-winning actor/filmmaker", "question_index": 8, "text": "So here you were with all of this interest in theater. And when you got - I think it was when you get out of college in around 1956, you were part of the pop folk group the Tarriers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And there he was, reading this passionate speech with tears streaming down his face."}
{"id": "1186187590", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Jack Gilford", "title": "Remembering Alan Arkin, an Oscar- and Tony-winning actor/filmmaker", "question_index": 9, "text": "And they had a hit that made it onto the charts, actually, of \"The Banana Boat Song\" and - what? - \"Cindy, Oh Cindy.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1186187590", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Jack Gilford", "title": "Remembering Alan Arkin, an Oscar- and Tony-winning actor/filmmaker", "question_index": 10, "text": "It seems - it almost seems like you were miscast in that group.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1186187590", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Jack Gilford", "title": "Remembering Alan Arkin, an Oscar- and Tony-winning actor/filmmaker", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Oh, yes. I felt so myself. I ended up after about two years being on stage at the Olympia Theater in Paris to an audience of about 3,000. We were singing our hearts out. And I looked down at"}
{"id": "1186187590", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Jack Gilford", "title": "Remembering Alan Arkin, an Oscar- and Tony-winning actor/filmmaker", "question_index": 12, "text": "How did you get into the detour of folk music to begin with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I said, who am I? What am I doing here? And I quit that night and went back to what I wanted to do, which was be connected with film and theater."}
{"id": "1186187590", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Jack Gilford", "title": "Remembering Alan Arkin, an Oscar- and Tony-winning actor/filmmaker", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well, I think one of your entrees into film and theater was Chicago's Second City group.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had gotten out of college, and I had gotten married and had a small child at the age of 22. And I needed something to do to just get us going. And there was this group that started, and I thou"}
{"id": "1186187590", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Jack Gilford", "title": "Remembering Alan Arkin, an Oscar- and Tony-winning actor/filmmaker", "question_index": 14, "text": "Second City was an improvisational theater and comedy group. Were you surprised that you were good at improvisation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It was my entree into everything. I feel like I got born there."}
{"id": "1186187590", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Jack Gilford", "title": "Remembering Alan Arkin, an Oscar- and Tony-winning actor/filmmaker", "question_index": 15, "text": "What was the character?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very. Yeah. I had no idea I had any abilities in that area at all. In fact, it took me a month to be funny. I would work out with David Shepherd in the group, and I wasn't funny. Nothing I did was fun"}
{"id": "1186187590", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Jack Gilford", "title": "Remembering Alan Arkin, an Oscar- and Tony-winning actor/filmmaker", "question_index": 16, "text": "Who were some of the characters?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't remember. It was one ethnic type or another. I don't remember exactly who it was. But then I started adding to that character. I started adding other characters to that character. And I ended "}
{"id": "1186187590", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Jack Gilford", "title": "Remembering Alan Arkin, an Oscar- and Tony-winning actor/filmmaker", "question_index": 17, "text": "So at what point were you ready to, like, leave those characters aside and play comedy yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had a Puerto Rican kid, a sensitive Puerto Rican kid who considered himself unable to do anything in society, played guitar. I had an ancient Jewish pretzel vendor who was modeled after my gra"}
{"id": "1186187590", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Jack Gilford", "title": "Remembering Alan Arkin, an Oscar- and Tony-winning actor/filmmaker", "question_index": 18, "text": "Let's talk a little bit about your first feature film, \"The Russians Are Coming.\" Earlier you said that when you looked back on this role, you didn't feel like you saw yourself. You saw the character. I want to play a short clip from the movie. And this is a scene from early on, after the Russians have landed in New England, and you've knocked on the door of a family. Carl Reiner's the husband, Eva Marie Saint is the wife. And you're taking them at gunpoint into their home and hoping that they'll help you find a boat.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1989 interview with Alan Arkin. The actor and director died last week at age 89."}
{"id": "1186187590", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Jack Gilford", "title": "Remembering Alan Arkin, an Oscar- and Tony-winning actor/filmmaker", "question_index": 19, "text": "So that's your first feature role. What stage were you in acting then? How did you prepare for that role?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Rozanov) Whatsoever, howsoever - so that there is no necessity howsoever for everybody in such a nice American family should get shot to little pieces. You understand? Yes. Good. Now, what else pe"}
{"id": "1186187590", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Jack Gilford", "title": "Remembering Alan Arkin, an Oscar- and Tony-winning actor/filmmaker", "question_index": 20, "text": "So you actually studied Russian for the part?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, how did I prepare? It was mostly in learning how to speak Russian and thinking a lot about what I wanted to do. I didn't do any research because I didn't know how I could do any research. I want"}
{"id": "1186187590", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Jack Gilford", "title": "Remembering Alan Arkin, an Oscar- and Tony-winning actor/filmmaker", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, for months, I studied Russian with an old woman in New York. Nobody had told me what to do or how to do it. I was left to my own devices. So I worked for months with this woman, trying to get th"}
{"id": "1186187590", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Jack Gilford", "title": "Remembering Alan Arkin, an Oscar- and Tony-winning actor/filmmaker", "question_index": 22, "text": "Alan Arkin, let's jump ahead to 1985, to your role in the movie \"Joshua Then And Now.\" And you starred along with James Woods in this movie. You played James Woods' father, a small-time Jewish gangster and bootlegger. And I want to play an excerpt from a flashback scene in which you're in a gym with your young son. And you're teaching him about the Ten Commandments.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it turned out I was speaking a Russian that no one had spoken for about 50 years. It was totally archaic. And I had to, on the set, start over again from the very beginning, which was very unnervi"}
{"id": "1186187590", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Jack Gilford", "title": "Remembering Alan Arkin, an Oscar- and Tony-winning actor/filmmaker", "question_index": 23, "text": "Was there anyone you knew in life that you could pattern this character on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Reuben) Yeah, well, you know, there's Ten Commandments. It's like an exam, right? I figure you get eight out of 10 right, you're pretty much at the top of the class, aren't you?"}
{"id": "1186187590", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Jack Gilford", "title": "Remembering Alan Arkin, an Oscar- and Tony-winning actor/filmmaker", "question_index": 24, "text": "What a waste of time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not a soul, no, nobody I knew. I loved that character. I just - the minute I read the script, I knew exactly what I wanted to do with him, and that was it. I told Ted Kotcheff, the director, who was w"}
{"id": "1186187590", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Jack Gilford", "title": "Remembering Alan Arkin, an Oscar- and Tony-winning actor/filmmaker", "question_index": 25, "text": ". I have read about you that in the late '60s or early '70s that you started yoga and also found someone who was something of a guru figure for you. What brought about that change?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it was terrible."}
{"id": "1186187590", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Jack Gilford", "title": "Remembering Alan Arkin, an Oscar- and Tony-winning actor/filmmaker", "question_index": 26, "text": "And he was playing an extra, is that - oh, he was playing your stand-in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What brought about the change was seven years of analysis, on which I worked very hard and which I feel like I really needed. I was very unhappy. And I came to a point where analysis - where I was com"}
{"id": "1186187590", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Jack Gilford", "title": "Remembering Alan Arkin, an Oscar- and Tony-winning actor/filmmaker", "question_index": 27, "text": "Can I relate this back to acting and ask you if it's changed the way you act or changed how much you act or the kinds of roles you take?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was my stand-in, which is not a terribly exalted job, as everybody knows. And after about 3 1/2 weeks, I could sense very clearly that he was the center of the entire film. It's not as if he was lo"}
{"id": "1186187590", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Jack Gilford", "title": "Remembering Alan Arkin, an Oscar- and Tony-winning actor/filmmaker", "question_index": 28, "text": "Sure, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, to a degree. It depends on how much money I've got in the bank, in part, I mean..."}
{"id": "1186187590", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Jack Gilford", "title": "Remembering Alan Arkin, an Oscar- and Tony-winning actor/filmmaker", "question_index": 29, "text": "Well, Alan Arkin, I thank you so much for talking with us. Thanks.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If I'm feeling pretty flush, then I feel more comfortable in turning down things that I don't want to do. But if I'm behind a payment on the house, then I got to be a little bit more generous in my as"}
{"id": "1186187590", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Jack Gilford", "title": "Remembering Alan Arkin, an Oscar- and Tony-winning actor/filmmaker", "question_index": 30, "text": "Oh, thanks. I really enjoyed this very much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. You're wonderful to talk to."}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 0, "text": "Can we talk a little bit about life before The Beatles?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University, in for Terry Gross. Ringo Starr, as the drummer for The Beatles, released his first recordings with that gr"}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 1, "text": "You grew up in Liverpool. What was your neighborhood like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure, sure."}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 2, "text": "Yeah, right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was born at a very early age."}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 3, "text": "Dark from...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My neighborhood was real working-class. I remember being conscious from a very early age that I wanted to get out of there because it was dark."}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 4, "text": "I know your father left the family, I think, when you were 3.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, and there was a park I used to walk to. One of my ambitions, which my mother used to tell me often, was I wanted to be a tramp. And so we used to walk everywhere. One of the reasons was, of "}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 5, "text": "So did your mother have a way of making money?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He'd had enough."}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 6, "text": "Right. Now, I know when you were young, you had two long hospital stays. When you were 6, your appendix burst, and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And - but my mother - God bless her - she did anything from scrubbing steps to working in a fruit shop to working in pubs - anything she could to support us 'cause he forgot that part of the bargain"}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 7, "text": "You ended up getting an internal infection.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 8, "text": "And so...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Peritonitis, it's called. Yeah."}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 9, "text": "So you were in the hospital for about a year.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that was pretty dangerous. It's still dangerous today, but in 1947, it was very dangerous."}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 10, "text": "Oh, no.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was in a year because, six months in, I was getting rather well. And I got excited, and I fell out the bed..."}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 11, "text": "Oh, gosh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And ripped open all these stitches in my stomach. So they had to dive in again and sew me up."}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 12, "text": "Yeah. Well, then you got sick again when you were 13.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So we're lucky to be here, Terry."}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 13, "text": "Tuberculosis, was it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know."}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 14, "text": "Industrial stuff?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. But that was from the area I lived in."}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 15, "text": "A greenhouse. That's, like, a sanitarium.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Where I lived, like, not every other home, but it was like, you know, six or seven cases in every street where people were just in the living room dying of TB because they didn't have a cure, of"}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 16, "text": "Did you, when you were a kid, think that you were going to die as a child?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, just this huge greenhouse where, instead of flowers, they put all these kids in there and let us breathe some decent air for a change and gave us streptomycin. And a year later, I came out of th"}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 17, "text": "So how did you keep busy while you were sick? Had music entered your life yet? Were you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know if that really crossed my mind about I'm going to die. I really knew I was ill, and the doctors felt I was going to die three times, but we proved them wrong. So I was pretty ill, but I d"}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 18, "text": "...Listening to a lot of it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's where..."}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 19, "text": "Oh, wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's where it entered my life - was because to keep us busy, besides letting us knit - they used to let us knit dishcloths."}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was really exciting."}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 21, "text": "Was that supposed to be physical therapy for you also since it's such a physical instrument?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then - so some teacher would come in with musical instruments, being drums, tambourines, maracas, triangles - all percussive stuff. And she'd put up this big screen - I'm trying to let you visuali"}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 22, "text": "So what was it like for you after you were sick to - or while you were sick, even, to be playing an instrument that's so physically taxing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we weren't - we couldn't get out of bed too often. You know, it was a big deal after six months in hospital when they said, you can get out of bed now and sit on a chair. So that was the big mov"}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 23, "text": "And how old were you when you were actually playing in a band?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I didn't have an instrument for years later. I made my first kit, when I came out of hospital, out of biscuit tins and firewood. And then when I was about 16, I got a bass drum. That's all I had"}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 24, "text": "After you got the kit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One month later."}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 25, "text": "So how did the Beatles ask you to join the band after they asked Pete Best to leave it?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1995 interview with Ringo Starr. Today is Ringo's 83rd birthday."}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 26, "text": "Well, an interesting part of the story is that you showed up for the first recording session...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they didn't do it that way. You see, Pete Best was still in the band and I was with Rory. And one day, Pete couldn't make the session, so they asked me to play. And we'd got to know each other i"}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 27, "text": "...Of the Beatles. And the producer...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 28, "text": "Yeah, had another drummer all picked out because I guess he didn't know that you had been chosen to be in the band.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "George Martin."}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 29, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, he didn't know. Well, he listened to the band with Pete Best and didn't think Pete was going to be on the session. And so he didn't know about me at all. And so he'd got this drummer, Andy White, "}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 30, "text": "Well, what did you think the Beatles' chances were of really making it? What was your assessment of the band when you joined it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I said, well, what am I? And he didn't want to take a chance because in those days, it wasn't like you could go in the studio and just spend your time there, you know? The session was three hours. Y"}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 31, "text": "Did you change your sound when you joined the Beatles?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I joined the band because they were the best band I'd heard. And that was how I played. I moved my career, through Liverpool, of course, to, you know - if I could get into a better band, I would. And "}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 32, "text": "So when you joined the band, did you have to do, you know, the Beatles' haircut and the suit jacket?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, that's why they - you know, they wanted me to play because of the way I could play."}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 33, "text": "Now, in the Beatles, did you have to, like, figure out who you were going to be in terms of your public personality in the band, you know, because everybody in the band seemed to get this, you know, public persona?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's the famous line. You know, John came on the phone saying, welcome to the band, but you'll have to get your haircut and get rid of your beard, and which I did. I didn't have much of a bear"}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 34, "text": "Could you give us a sense of what it was like early on when the Beatles fame started getting, like, so extraordinary that you couldn't go places without attracting crowds? I mean...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think mine just came in naturally as Mr. Dopey, you know, like sort of, like, the comic clown, you know? John had the outrage. Paul was Mr. Lovable. Well, I was Mr. Lovable, but the young girl"}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 35, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, we were young boys. And it was exciting where, you know, we'd sort of conquered England. That was the first job, you know? Just to get down to London and get in there was heavy enough,"}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 36, "text": "Well, that first \"Ed Sullivan\" performance is one of the watershed moments in rock 'n' roll history.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We've done France now. We've done Italy, you know? And then, of course, we were invited to come to America. And at that time, we were really worried because we'd had two records out here, or they were"}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 37, "text": "What were you - what are some of your memories of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "History."}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 38, "text": "Of that show, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of \"Ed Sullivan?\""}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 39, "text": "You probably couldn't comprehend the whole...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Ed, you see, I thought, we come to America - and it was fabulous. And there was millions of people at the airport. And they were lining the streets. And it was yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, all over t"}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 40, "text": "Right", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We were just, like, thrown to the lions."}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 41, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We were just, like, thrown to the lions."}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 42, "text": "Well, you probably were unfamiliar with the whole Ed Sullivan phenomenon. I mean, the most...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So to this day, I've always thought, God, I mean, we could have done better than that, Ed."}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 43, "text": "...Low-key, square person.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We didn't know what it meant."}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 44, "text": "So when girls started screaming at your performances, did you have - do you have any idea what was going on - like, why? Why the screaming, as opposed to anything else?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We did not know what it meant. You know, this guy just booked us on a show, and we'd go anywhere for a gig."}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 45, "text": "So you actually knew where it started? I mean, I was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It started in Liverpool. And just..."}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 46, "text": "Was it frustrating to perform in concerts where you couldn't hear what you were playing because the audience was screaming so loud?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It caught on like wildfire all over the world."}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 47, "text": "Do you have a favorite phase of the Beatles recording years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It got frustrating in the end. At the beginning, it was just fabulous. I mean, you know, if you can imagine you're 22, 23, and you go on stage and all those people are just screaming at you, loving yo"}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 48, "text": "Being a band as opposed to being artfully produced in the studio. Is that what you mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think - well, you see, the very first record - you know, making the first record was just a thrill. I mean, it was absolutely thrilling. And listening to it on the radio - you know, we would stop th"}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 49, "text": "My guest is Ringo Starr. It just - something else about the Beatles. You know, the Beatles were such an important part of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Even though we did it ourselves, you know, certainly the - sort of the strings and the brass were taking center stage around the songs instead of the group."}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 50, "text": "...Music, period, you know? And they're really a very small part in your life - I mean, a big part in who you are but a small part...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Life."}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 51, "text": "...In the number of years...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 52, "text": "...That you were a Beatle. So I guess I'd like to get a sense of what it means in your life, if you still feel like that is so much a part of your existence or if that's something that you've really tried to move beyond and away from and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "1186200274", "date": "2023-07-07", "guest": "Ringo Starr", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks Ringo Starr's 83rd birthday", "question_index": 53, "text": "Thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't think you can move away from it because, you know, it was only eight years of my life, but it's the eight years that everybody really associates with - you know, it's like, you know, it "}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 0, "text": "David Sedaris, welcome back to FRESH AIR. So great to talk to you again.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli. David Sedaris is a famous humorist who got his start by reading his personal essays on the public radio show This American Life. He's had bestselling collection"}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 1, "text": "So I have to start with your author photo before we get into the heavy stuff. So you're standing in front of, like, a library of bookshelves wearing an elegant suit, holding a pipe in your hands, looking off to the side. There's something so, like, 1950s movie about it. Like, what is this photo about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you so much, Terry."}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 2, "text": "Yes, that's right - or like a Hugh Hefner photo. Didn't he always have a pipe...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hugh has an old friend who he went to college with, a photographer named Anne Fishbein. And so I needed an author photo, so I asked Anne if she would do it. And so she arranged to get into the LA Coun"}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 3, "text": "...And look to the side like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 4, "text": "I know. I've been wondering that. Like, what happened to the pipe", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I think some places are - you know, have a problem with it because they say, he's smoking, but it's just a fake - you know, if you look at it, it's so clearly a fake pipe, but it's just a really f"}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 5, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I think some places are - you know, have a problem with it because they say, he's smoking, but it's just a fake - you know, if you look at it, it's so clearly a fake pipe, but it's just a really f"}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yes, that's right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's just for pot now, you know."}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 7, "text": "Right. But anyways, for anybody who knows you, that's not, like - or reads you - that's not, like, a David Sedaris real pose. That's just - that's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But nobody smokes tobacco out of it."}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 8, "text": "Yeah, exactly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. I was playing, like, a character."}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 9, "text": "So why not just pose as you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was the author in his study."}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 10, "text": "Right. OK. Understood. So I want to talk with you about your father who died not long ago. When was it exactly?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, gosh, I just can't think of anything worse. But I really - I've known Anne for - I don't know. I met her shortly after I met Hugh. So it's been, like, 30 years, so I feel super comfortable in fron"}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 11, "text": "Oh, all right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a year ago yesterday."}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 12, "text": "You have some beautiful and very conflicted writing about him in your book. Several of the essays are about your father in his later years and about his death. So I want to start with an excerpt of one of them toward the end of the book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like, May 22, 2021."}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 13, "text": "David, you've written about your father for years. Did how you wrote about him change after his death and even before that, when he was too out of it to read what you'd written?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) It used to be that people's parents died in their 60s and 70s, cleanly of good old-fashioned cancers and heart attacks, meaning the child was on his or her own by the age of 45 or so. Now, t"}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 14, "text": "You know, I don't feel like you're whining. I feel like you've put your father and your relationship with your father on the examining table, and you're reporting on the findings, kind of like forensics.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", 65. And hopefully it's not whining. But, I mean, I figured there's a lot of people in the same situation that I was in. I hear from them all the time."}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 15, "text": "Did your siblings have similar reactions to your father?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think - I mean, because the way I've always made sense of things is to write about it. When my mother died, she couldn't be buried in the Greek Orthodox Church because she wanted to be cremate"}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 16, "text": "He lied to you. He pretended to be generous to you when he was just lying.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But her - you know, when she said, you know, like, the checks he used to send us every Christmas. But my father never sent me the checks. Like, he - when my mother died, my father became uncharacter"}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 17, "text": "So that wasn't dementia? That was, like, earlier...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "?"}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 18, "text": "Oh, gee.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no. This was early, growing up. Like, anything he would lie about. You know, talking about his daughters in a sexual way was something that was Trump-like, not paying people for the work that "}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 19, "text": "For anybody who doesn't know what S&H Green Stamps were, they were kind of, like, stamps that you could use as cash equivalent in certain markets and stores, and that's, like, from the early 1960s, late 1950s, maybe.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 21, "text": "Yes. Right, right, right. Sounds like your father had a lot of money.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And you could get toaster ovens and things like that with them."}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 22, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here and take a break, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is David Sedaris, and his new collection of essays is called \"Happy-Go-Lucky.\" We'll be back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he did, but it was my mother's money. My mother had a wealthy aunt who died. We never knew how much money it was, but in 1970, our lives kind of changed. And my parents went to the funeral in Oh"}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with David Sedaris. His new collection of personal essays is called \"Happy-Go-Lucky.\" I want you to read another excerpt of one of your essays. And this is basically about you and your siblings around your father's deathbed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he did, but it was my mother's money. My mother had a wealthy aunt who died. We never knew how much money it was, but in 1970, our lives kind of changed. And my parents went to the funeral in Oh"}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 24, "text": "So you're imagining a deathbed scene as you and your siblings are sitting around your father's bed. But it didn't work out in that kind of beautiful way where everybody's together as the parent kind of, you know, dies. How did it work out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) You always think that if you gather round and really concentrate, the person on the bed will let go. We were all there, you imagine yourself saying to friends, and in an odd way, it was sort"}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 25, "text": "One of the things that really changed about him is he said, at some point, you know, that he voted for Trump, but he realizes now that was a mistake, that Trump had lied and that, you know, Biden is OK. And you were astonished.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He lived for another four or five days but just sort of in a weird kind of neither-here-nor-there state. And he was on morphine, so he wasn't in pain. But it really wasn't a bad death at all. I mean, "}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 26, "text": "About anything?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I never thought I would heard my - hear my father say, I was wrong, you know?"}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 27, "text": "You know, those - the conservative news networks are, among other things, pretty homophobic. So did that ever influence his feelings about you, watching all that ultra-conservative news?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "About anything. But one of the differences, though - and it was something my father and I shared, you know? After the election, I let it all go, you know? I mean, I could have won any news quiz during"}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 28, "text": "He had cut you out of his will without telling you. He wanted you to find out after he died. But you found out before he died. And you were really offended. It's not like you needed the money. You have plenty of money. But for him to do that and not tell you seemed like a real insult. And you confronted him about it. And then he told you that maybe he'd leave you a modest sum, but you couldn't let your boyfriend, Hugh - your boyfriend of 30 years, Hugh, have any of it, that he couldn't touch it. What message did that send you both about yourself and about your relationship with Hugh?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know? But he didn't - when I questioned him on it, he didn't even - he didn't have a straight answer for me, you know? I said, you know, my niece - her aunt is gay and wants to marry her girlfri"}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 29, "text": "When he said that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he had said a number of things in the past, you know, like that Hugh was just with me because he - you know, for money or - you know, which to me sends a message that, you know, I'd be completel"}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 30, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. There was a woman I used to live with in Chicago. She just - she had an extra room in her house. And I was getting ready to move to New York. And she said, well, why don't you move in here, you kn"}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 31, "text": "OK, David, there's another reading I want you to do, and this is also about your father. And set it up for us. Where is your father at the time of this passage?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University. Let's get back to Terry's 2022 interview with David Sedaris. His latest collection of personal essays is no"}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 32, "text": "I love that passage, but were you really able to put down that lance?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I got a call that he was dying and that his heart was failing. And so I caught the next plane from London. And by the time I got to North Carolina, he was out of the hospital, and he was back at his a"}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 33, "text": "Yeah, 'cause that's hard to do, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 34, "text": "And, oh, wait. And I also think, when you think somebody is dying, and you're trying to make peace with them, and then they come back to life, all the grievances can come back to life, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's interesting, like..."}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 35, "text": "Yeah", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "..."}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 36, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "..."}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 37, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think everyone in my family has marks next to their eyes from this cat. And that's what my dad was like, you know, just - you know, I would do shows in Raleigh and, you know, go on tour and the thea"}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 38, "text": "Do you think that one of the reasons why you're writing about your father so much now and have been thinking about him so much is because your contentious - your awful relationship with him, which was based on him, you know, belittling and insulting you and you trying to defend yourself - or at least, that's how you've portrayed it - do you think some of the - one of the reasons why you're so absorbed in that relationship is because you want to know how it shaped you? Like, who are you, and how did those battles, those constant battles, shape who you are? Is this about trying to understand yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's not sold out. And I would think, who does that?"}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 39, "text": "Oh, and you loved your mother.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think - I mean, I'm fortunate that - I think that I was equally shaped by both parents, you know?"}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 40, "text": "I want to bring up something else that you write about about your father, that he hit you a lot as a kid. And you say he clamped your hands around your neck, lifted you off the ground and pinned you to the wall. He hit you with paddles. He shoved you into trees and whacked you over the head with heavy serving spoons. Was this while your mother was still alive? And did she know about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And my mother really loved me, you know? And so when she died, then it was hard 'cause then I was alone in the family. I mean, you know, I had siblings, but, I mean, I didn't have anybody in the offic"}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 41, "text": "Yeah, it sounds horrible today.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "that's really what it was like. I mean, it sounds horrible today..."}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 42, "text": "Let's take another break here, then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is David Sedaris. His new collection of personal essays is called \"Happy-Go-Lucky.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...But back then, you know, everybody got punished, right? Everybody got punished by their parents. And it was normal to be hit by a parent. But it was different - you know, like, my mother might have"}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 43, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with David Sedaris. His new collection of personal essays is called \"Happy-Go-Lucky.\" I want to get to another chapter about your father, and this is the most probably sensitive - I don't even know what word to use. Like, I hardly even know how to approach this chapter. And this is about the possibility that your father sexually abused your sister Tiffany. Your sister Tiffany had, like, very serious mental health problems. And you found her - once these mental health problems started to be a very unreliable narrator about her life. She lied a lot. She misled everybody a lot. And at some point, she told you that your father had sexually abused her. And you write, (reading) in the wake of #MeToo - I know how brutal this sounds - but it was hard to believe much of what she said. Can you describe being in that position a little bit, about having a sister who had serious mental health problems, who wasn't reliable, who was telling you this awful thing about your father but wasn't giving you enough information so that you could really understand what it was she was telling you? She was very vague. And anyways, why don't you tell us about the position you felt you were in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...But back then, you know, everybody got punished, right? Everybody got punished by their parents. And it was normal to be hit by a parent. But it was different - you know, like, my mother might have"}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 44, "text": "You had stopped talking to her in 2004. What was behind the break?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My understanding, you know, from Tiffany, was that she went to a therapist in the 1980s who said, if you don't remember being sexually abused, that's a pretty good sign that you were sexually abused, "}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 45, "text": "You've read the story about Tiffany's accusation that your father sexually abused her. You've read that to audiences.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just couldn't - when you talked with Tiffany, it was sort of like everything was a gunfight. You know, like, certain people you might argue with - and let's say you're going to argue over - you know"}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 46, "text": "I'm wondering what reaction you get and if any women come up to you afterwards who are really angry that you don't just out and out believe your sister.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 47, "text": "I think this is the most just kind of, like, serious conversation we've ever had on the air. By serious, I mean just dealing with, you know, death and trouble and, like, really troubled relationship with your father. And anyways, thank you for talking about it. And thank you for feeling like it wasn't your duty to be funny about it, either as a writer or in this interview.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, a lot of women come up and they - you know, they tell me they had similar experiences, you know, with their father. Not that he - just that he was the same sort of man as my father appears to be i"}
{"id": "1187534149", "date": "2023-07-14", "guest": "David Sedaris", "title": "David Sedaris reflects on the driving force of his life: His war with his dad", "question_index": 48, "text": "Well, it was a pleasure for me, even though we were talking about really painful things. But I appreciate you sharing them. And I think we all learn a lot about ourselves by reading painful things that good writers like you write about.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I always think that's kind of irritating. Like, Marc Maron, his podcast, you know, he just wants - he tries to get people to drop the shtick, and then some people just won't do it, and those int"}
{"id": "1188101048", "date": "2023-07-17", "guest": "Emily Monosson", "title": "'Blight' warns of the alarming public health threat posed by fungi", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. What are the most devastating disease agents on the planet? Bacteria? Nope. Viruses. Uh-uh. I learned in a new book that the answer is fungi and fungus-like pathogens. They're collectively the most devastating. The book is called \"Blight: Fungi And The Coming Pandemic,\" by my guest, Emily Monosson. This year, the CDC reported that a deadly fungus, first identified in 2016, is an urgent public health threat that has spread at an alarming rate during the COVID pandemic. It's often resistant to go-to antifungal drugs. It's a threat, but it's not a pandemic. Morrison writes about this fungus in her book. She also writes about how and why fungal diseases have led to the extinction or near-extinction of species of trees, bananas, bats, frogs, salamanders and more. Most fungi are harmless. Some are beneficial, which is good news considering fungi are all around us. Fungi even populated the Russian space station Mir, threatening the controls, and they were found on the International Space Station. Monosson is a toxicologist who became a science writer. She's an adjunct faculty member at the University of Massachusetts Amherst. \"Blight\" is her fourth book. She also edited the anthology of essays called \"Motherhood, The Elephant In The Laboratory.\" Emily Monosson, welcome to FRESH AIR. Let's start with the CDC's alarming report this year about candida auris, aka C. auris, the deadly fungus that the CDC called an urgent public health threat. Why is it so deadly?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1188101048", "date": "2023-07-17", "guest": "Emily Monosson", "title": "'Blight' warns of the alarming public health threat posed by fungi", "question_index": 1, "text": "Why did it spread so much during COVID?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it can go systemic, infecting the blood, and once it goes systemic, fungal infection can be lethal. And it can be very hard to treat some of these fungal infections. There are a limited number o"}
{"id": "1188101048", "date": "2023-07-17", "guest": "Emily Monosson", "title": "'Blight' warns of the alarming public health threat posed by fungi", "question_index": 2, "text": "Yeah, and that's kind of one of the paradoxes of this, is that medical breakthroughs like organ transplants and cancer treatments that leave people immune compromised leave them more susceptible to other diseases such as C. auris.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When the outbreak first happened, one of the things that really alarmed the medical community was that it seemed to - one, which is odd for fungus - be able to transmit from patient to patient or from"}
{"id": "1188101048", "date": "2023-07-17", "guest": "Emily Monosson", "title": "'Blight' warns of the alarming public health threat posed by fungi", "question_index": 3, "text": "And it also opens the door to certain pathogens because they have a breeding ground.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, if there's a change in the human population, it's that more of us, because of these fantastic drugs, have become more susceptible to infections like fungal infections because of being "}
{"id": "1188101048", "date": "2023-07-17", "guest": "Emily Monosson", "title": "'Blight' warns of the alarming public health threat posed by fungi", "question_index": 4, "text": "Now, candida - it will be familiar to a lot of people because candida albicans causes vaginal infections known as yeast infections and thrush, which is a fungal infection in the mouth. But that should not be confused with the candida that we're talking about.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. So in humans, fungal infections tend to be relatively rare, compared to - in the beginning you mentioned bacteria and viruses, and those are more important infectious diseases in the big picture."}
{"id": "1188101048", "date": "2023-07-17", "guest": "Emily Monosson", "title": "'Blight' warns of the alarming public health threat posed by fungi", "question_index": 5, "text": "Thanks for that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. Those two - they're very distant relatives. I should say candida albicans, if it goes systemic, can also cause deadly infections."}
{"id": "1188101048", "date": "2023-07-17", "guest": "Emily Monosson", "title": "'Blight' warns of the alarming public health threat posed by fungi", "question_index": 6, "text": "Now, pathogenic fungi are very resistant. Why are many fungal infections challenging to treat?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sorry."}
{"id": "1188101048", "date": "2023-07-17", "guest": "Emily Monosson", "title": "'Blight' warns of the alarming public health threat posed by fungi", "question_index": 7, "text": "And I think a lot of - most, maybe - fungi develop protective coatings around themselves.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To begin with, fungal cells are eukaryotes. That means that their cells are very much like our cells, unlike bacteria which are prokaryotes, so they're a very distant class from us. And so when we dev"}
{"id": "1188101048", "date": "2023-07-17", "guest": "Emily Monosson", "title": "'Blight' warns of the alarming public health threat posed by fungi", "question_index": 8, "text": "Let me add one thing to that wonderful list, and that is many kinds of pathogenic fungi can live a long time without a host. In other words, they can live a long time outside the human body. This isn't necessarily true of C. auris. I'm not sure if it is or not. But it's true of of some pathogenic fungi. How do they manage to live a long time without a body to feed on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They do have some protective coatings that help them hide from our immune system. They can grow as things called biofilms on top of each other. Other microbes can do this too. But also the other thing"}
{"id": "1188101048", "date": "2023-07-17", "guest": "Emily Monosson", "title": "'Blight' warns of the alarming public health threat posed by fungi", "question_index": 9, "text": "You mentioned fungi typically don't like our body temperature, which makes us immune to a lot of fungi because they live in cooler temperatures than the average 98.6 of human bodies. But you write that global warming might be changing it and that the fungi might be evolving to live in warmer climates. So tell us about the threat that this may pose and why.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Some of the other fungal pathogens that infect humans are - reproduce by making spores. And spores can be, depending on the kind of spore, highly resilient. Depending on the fungus, they could live fo"}
{"id": "1188101048", "date": "2023-07-17", "guest": "Emily Monosson", "title": "'Blight' warns of the alarming public health threat posed by fungi", "question_index": 10, "text": "Let's take a short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Emily Monosson, author of \"Blight: Fungi And The Coming Pandemic.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So I interviewed a scientist, Arturo Casadevall, and he has been studying what he calls the mammalian fungal filter. So there's millions of fungal species. A very small proportion of them infect"}
{"id": "1188101048", "date": "2023-07-17", "guest": "Emily Monosson", "title": "'Blight' warns of the alarming public health threat posed by fungi", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Emily Monosson, author of the new book \"Blight: Fungi And The Coming Pandemic.\" So, you know, there's plant and animal species that have become extinct or are threatened with extinction because of pathogenic fungi. One example are a kind of bat that is - they're known as little brown bats, and some of them live in your neighborhood. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So I interviewed a scientist, Arturo Casadevall, and he has been studying what he calls the mammalian fungal filter. So there's millions of fungal species. A very small proportion of them infect"}
{"id": "1188101048", "date": "2023-07-17", "guest": "Emily Monosson", "title": "'Blight' warns of the alarming public health threat posed by fungi", "question_index": 12, "text": "...Let's start there since it's very close to home for you. What has killed so many of them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1188101048", "date": "2023-07-17", "guest": "Emily Monosson", "title": "'Blight' warns of the alarming public health threat posed by fungi", "question_index": 13, "text": "Is there something about bats that have made them particularly vulnerable to this fungal infection?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A fungal pathogen whose name - one of the few names that I will try to pronounce - is pseudogymnoascus destructans - nickname PD - and it's a fungus that causes a disease in bats called white-nose onl"}
{"id": "1188101048", "date": "2023-07-17", "guest": "Emily Monosson", "title": "'Blight' warns of the alarming public health threat posed by fungi", "question_index": 14, "text": "So they die off before emerging from hibernation or soon after?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So when I talked about humans having a high body temperature, all mammals have high body temperatures. And so typically, fungal infections would also be relatively rare across mammals. So what i"}
{"id": "1188101048", "date": "2023-07-17", "guest": "Emily Monosson", "title": "'Blight' warns of the alarming public health threat posed by fungi", "question_index": 15, "text": "So do you miss the bats in your neighborhood?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that was how the disease was first detected was - I think it was in the early spring when people went to the caves because they found dead bats outside of the cave. And then when scientists star"}
{"id": "1188101048", "date": "2023-07-17", "guest": "Emily Monosson", "title": "'Blight' warns of the alarming public health threat posed by fungi", "question_index": 16, "text": "So were the bats nesting in the church?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We do miss the bats. We used to go down to the church where they were up near the attic, and you would just sit there at dusk and watch streams of bats coming out of the church. And it was just a beau"}
{"id": "1188101048", "date": "2023-07-17", "guest": "Emily Monosson", "title": "'Blight' warns of the alarming public health threat posed by fungi", "question_index": 17, "text": "Roosting, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They are roosting, yes."}
{"id": "1188101048", "date": "2023-07-17", "guest": "Emily Monosson", "title": "'Blight' warns of the alarming public health threat posed by fungi", "question_index": 18, "text": "So let's talk about the banana plagues. I like bananas a lot, and I'm really worried about them. So the bananas that we eat now that are exported to America are largely Cavendish bananas. And they replaced a previous breed of banana, a breed that had died off because of a fungal plague. A lot of the bananas are grown by giant fruit companies. What did the giant fruit companies did wrong that left the previous breed of banana, the one that preceded Cavendish - that was called Gros Michel, G-R-O-S Michel - so maybe it's pronounced Gros Michel and not Gros Michel. But so what did the large banana growers do wrong that allowed this fungus to spread and make the Gros Michel bananas virtually extinct?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So what's so cool is that those - what I learned is that those bats in the church, especially in the early spring or, you know, maybe early summer, they're usually female bats. It's a maternity roost."}
{"id": "1188101048", "date": "2023-07-17", "guest": "Emily Monosson", "title": "'Blight' warns of the alarming public health threat posed by fungi", "question_index": 19, "text": "So just in looking ahead, do you have any idea how long the Cavendish bananas will exist?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think one of the problems with the banana industry, which probably isn't unique to the banana industry, is the huge monocrops. So this is a soil-borne fungus, and it also spreads in the soil. So the"}
{"id": "1188101048", "date": "2023-07-17", "guest": "Emily Monosson", "title": "'Blight' warns of the alarming public health threat posed by fungi", "question_index": 20, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Emily Monosson, author of the new book \"Blight: Fungi And The Coming Pandemic.\" We'll talk more after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I have some scientists that say we're not going to not have bananas. But I think what he's saying is we might have some other kind of banana. I don't know how long. I do know that, so far, that dis"}
{"id": "1188101048", "date": "2023-07-17", "guest": "Emily Monosson", "title": "'Blight' warns of the alarming public health threat posed by fungi", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Emily Monosson, author of the new book \"Blight: Fungi And The Coming Pandemic.\" It's about how fungi have killed off species of plants, animals, including trees, bananas, bats, frogs, salamanders and more. The CDC warned this year that a fungus that has spread in hospitals and nursing homes, a fungus that older people and people with compromised immune systems are particularly susceptible to, spread at an alarming rate during the pandemic and is an urgent public health threat. Emily Monosson is a toxicologist who has become a science writer. Let's talk about trees, Emily - trees like chestnut trees, whitebark pine trees, elm trees which are close to extinction or have basically become extinct. You know, you point out in your book that, you know, lots of streets are named after chestnut trees. In Philadelphia, where I live, there's Chestnut Hill. There's Chestnut Street. I used to live in Buffalo, and I lived on Elmwood Avenue, but so many of the elm trees had died. And so how do trees become extinct or near extinct? What is responsible for them, you know, dying off in basically a fungal plague?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I have some scientists that say we're not going to not have bananas. But I think what he's saying is we might have some other kind of banana. I don't know how long. I do know that, so far, that dis"}
{"id": "1188101048", "date": "2023-07-17", "guest": "Emily Monosson", "title": "'Blight' warns of the alarming public health threat posed by fungi", "question_index": 22, "text": "There's a couple of different pathways scientists are trying to bring back chestnut trees. What are these approaches?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So I write about the chestnut trees and the whitebark pine trees. In both of those cases, the fungus that infected those trees and are killing off those trees is not a native fungus. And actuall"}
{"id": "1188101048", "date": "2023-07-17", "guest": "Emily Monosson", "title": "'Blight' warns of the alarming public health threat posed by fungi", "question_index": 23, "text": "So is there a more recent development in genetic engineering that is being applied to the chestnut tree or to other trees that are or are nearly extinct?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So one of the longest ongoing approach was to breed resistant trees. So once scientists identified that there were chestnuts that were resistant to the fungus - Chinese chestnuts, Japanese chestnuts -"}
{"id": "1188101048", "date": "2023-07-17", "guest": "Emily Monosson", "title": "'Blight' warns of the alarming public health threat posed by fungi", "question_index": 24, "text": "Since so many of the fungi, the pathogenic fungi that have killed off, you know, plants or animals have come here from other countries, from importing animals or reptiles or trees, so what are the cautionary steps the U.S. government has taken so far to prevent the importation of any kind of, you know, plant or, you know, or animal or fish that may have a fungus that could spread here?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so around the same time, there was a scientist, William Powell, who wondered if he could use genetic engineering to develop a resistant chestnut tree. And in this case, there is a single gene th"}
{"id": "1188101048", "date": "2023-07-17", "guest": "Emily Monosson", "title": "'Blight' warns of the alarming public health threat posed by fungi", "question_index": 25, "text": "We've talked about pathogenic fungi. Let's talk about good guy fungi for a second, 'cause not all - most fungi are not harmful. So let's briefly talk about what they're good for. First of all, you say, you know, fungi decompose things that are dead or dying, and without fungus, we'd be surrounded by the dead and there'd be no room for the living. I - that brought quite a picture to my mind. Can you elaborate on that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So there's a fairly long history of plant inspections. And I spoke to our U.S. national mycologist, which I thought was kind of interesting that we have a national mycologist. So she is our national f"}
{"id": "1188101048", "date": "2023-07-17", "guest": "Emily Monosson", "title": "'Blight' warns of the alarming public health threat posed by fungi", "question_index": 26, "text": "And there's also penicillin, which comes from a mold.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah, they are the major decomposers of the planet, along with - there are other organisms that do that. But imagine, you know, when you walk through the woods and you see those logs decomposing"}
{"id": "1188101048", "date": "2023-07-17", "guest": "Emily Monosson", "title": "'Blight' warns of the alarming public health threat posed by fungi", "question_index": 27, "text": "Emily Monosson, thank you so much for being with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, and they provide us with antibiotics. Fungi are releasing chemicals, which people know. Mushrooms release certain kinds of chemicals that people like. And then there are also chemicals that are "}
{"id": "1188101048", "date": "2023-07-17", "guest": "Emily Monosson", "title": "'Blight' warns of the alarming public health threat posed by fungi", "question_index": 28, "text": "Emily Monosson's new book is titled \"Blight: Fungi And The Coming Pandemic.\" After we take a short break, rock critic Ken Tucker will review two music-related books - one about blues pioneer Robert Johnson and the other about making music documentaries, including two related to Robert Johnson. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having me."}
{"id": "1188952468", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Lucas Shaw", "title": "Is the TV/film industry collapsing, or just reshaping itself for the future?", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The movie and TV industries are in chaos. Striking actors and writers have shut down production. Broadcast TV lost viewers to cable. Then cable lost viewers to streaming TV. Now broadcast cable and many streaming platforms are in trouble. The movie industry is in trouble, too. People spend more time and money on video games than on movies and more time watching YouTube than any other TV network. Big media companies are merging with or buying other big media companies. Some of the companies that were bought may soon be sold. Just about every company in Hollywood has been cutting costs and laying off employees. Is the industry collapsing or just reshaping? And what does this mean for viewers and for the future of entertainment? My guest, Lucas Shaw, is the managing editor for media and entertainment at Bloomberg and the author of the weekly newsletter Screentime. He spent more than a decade writing about how the world's largest technology companies have reshaped pop culture. Before we start the interview, I want to disclose that most of FRESH AIR's staff are members of SAG-AFTRA, but they're covered by a different contract than the actors. I'm a member of the actor's part of SAG because I've had several small parts on screen, mostly portraying myself. Lucas Shaw, welcome to FRESH AIR. I think one way to show how movies and TV are changing is to look at who owns what. Which megacompanies are the biggest players, and what do they own? So can we do some, like, media genealogy? So why don't we start with Warner Bros. Discovery?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1188952468", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Lucas Shaw", "title": "Is the TV/film industry collapsing, or just reshaping itself for the future?", "question_index": 1, "text": "My head is spinning.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Warner Bros. Discovery is the combination of three companies that used to be independent. There was Discovery Communications, which is best known for a bunch of cable networks, including its namesa"}
{"id": "1188952468", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Lucas Shaw", "title": "Is the TV/film industry collapsing, or just reshaping itself for the future?", "question_index": 2, "text": "Let me just say here, we think of all these, you know, channels and companies that you mentioned as being these independent companies with their own identities. And now all the ones you just mentioned are merged into this one giant company. So do brands stop meaning anything?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the employees at those companies feel the same way."}
{"id": "1188952468", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Lucas Shaw", "title": "Is the TV/film industry collapsing, or just reshaping itself for the future?", "question_index": 3, "text": "So let's continue our genealogy and move to Disney.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we're in the middle of a great reshuffling of what brands mean, right? So for the past several decades, people watched TV by watching broadcast networks and cable networks. And those were brands"}
{"id": "1188952468", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Lucas Shaw", "title": "Is the TV/film industry collapsing, or just reshaping itself for the future?", "question_index": 4, "text": "And Paramount Global - what do they own?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Disney in the last 20 years or so bought Pixar, the animation studio. It bought Marvel, the comic book factory. It bought Lucasfilm, which is the company that made and owned all the \"Star Wars\" mov"}
{"id": "1188952468", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Lucas Shaw", "title": "Is the TV/film industry collapsing, or just reshaping itself for the future?", "question_index": 5, "text": "So why is this happening now? Is this happening to please shareholders? Is this happening because companies just want the edge in the competition and they want as little competition as possible? What's this about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Paramount Global owns everything from the CBS broadcast network to cable networks - MTV, Comedy Central, VH1. It's in the process of trying to sell BET, which it owns. And it's the combination of two "}
{"id": "1188952468", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Lucas Shaw", "title": "Is the TV/film industry collapsing, or just reshaping itself for the future?", "question_index": 6, "text": "If one company owns all these different channels and some of them are niche channels like Turner Classic Movies or HBO, how much does the parent company really care about the identity of individual channels? - 'cause it all just becomes about making profit and, you know, beating out the competition. So some things that are really valuable can't just be measured in profit and in measuring yourself against the metrics of other companies. So am I wrong to be worried about individual identities being slowly eradicated?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It largely stems from the slow collapse of cable television. So most of the biggest media and entertainment companies of sort of the prior generation - many of them today make a lot of their money, if"}
{"id": "1188952468", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Lucas Shaw", "title": "Is the TV/film industry collapsing, or just reshaping itself for the future?", "question_index": 7, "text": "You write that Netflix and YouTube will soon account for as much TV viewing as all the broadcast networks combined. That's an amazing thing to think about.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it depends on which individual identities matter to you. So you're correct that a lot of these networks, brands that have been built up over the years that people may have some attachment to a"}
{"id": "1188952468", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Lucas Shaw", "title": "Is the TV/film industry collapsing, or just reshaping itself for the future?", "question_index": 8, "text": "And YouTube, of course, is owned by Google. So we're back in the world of mega companies.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And the truth is that may already be happening. But the measure for that is this Nielsen measurement called The Gauge, which just measures viewership on television for the most part. So think about ho"}
{"id": "1188952468", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Lucas Shaw", "title": "Is the TV/film industry collapsing, or just reshaping itself for the future?", "question_index": 9, "text": "You know what company we didn't mention - I don't think - is Amazon and what they own now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Think about how big YouTube is - you know, billions of users, the most watched video service, really, in the world, the most used music service in the world. And it was small enough in the broader Goo"}
{"id": "1188952468", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Lucas Shaw", "title": "Is the TV/film industry collapsing, or just reshaping itself for the future?", "question_index": 10, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Lucas Shaw, and he covers the changing media landscape for Bloomberg News. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Amazon, like Netflix and like Apple, built its studio, really, from the ground up. They started more than a decade ago. You know, they have a video streaming service. They also have a store that sells"}
{"id": "1188952468", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Lucas Shaw", "title": "Is the TV/film industry collapsing, or just reshaping itself for the future?", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Lucas Shaw, who covers the media industry and its changing landscape for Bloomberg News. And we're talking about this changing media landscape in the film and TV industry, and that changing landscape is the backdrop for the writers and actors who are on strike now. So let's get back to Disney. And to sum up, they own Pixar, Marvel, Lucasfilm, ABC, FX and ESPN. And Bob Iger, the CEO, made it clear last week that he's thinking of selling their TV holdings. And as you said, he said they may not be core to Disney. So he's selling which assets and why? You mentioned ABC.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Amazon, like Netflix and like Apple, built its studio, really, from the ground up. They started more than a decade ago. You know, they have a video streaming service. They also have a store that sells"}
{"id": "1188952468", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Lucas Shaw", "title": "Is the TV/film industry collapsing, or just reshaping itself for the future?", "question_index": 12, "text": "David Zaslav, who is the head of Warner Bros. Discovery - which owns a whole lot of stuff, as we described - he's seen by some people who cover the industry as being representative of the changes that the industry is going through now in television and film. So can you talk a little bit about his role in all of this? Like, what is he doing that is making him emblematic of these changes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He didn't specify what specifically he would sell. On ESPN, which has been the subject of intense speculation over many years - because ESPN was really the crown jewel of the cable bundle. It gets pai"}
{"id": "1188952468", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Lucas Shaw", "title": "Is the TV/film industry collapsing, or just reshaping itself for the future?", "question_index": 13, "text": "Wait. Can I stop - you said 50 billion - right? - with a B?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, David Zaslav was, for a long time, sort of a member of the mogul class but with a relatively small empire, if you will. You know, Discovery Communications - you know, he got he got paid like he "}
{"id": "1188952468", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Lucas Shaw", "title": "Is the TV/film industry collapsing, or just reshaping itself for the future?", "question_index": 14, "text": "That's a lot of debt.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That is correct - 50 billion with a B."}
{"id": "1188952468", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Lucas Shaw", "title": "Is the TV/film industry collapsing, or just reshaping itself for the future?", "question_index": 15, "text": "OK. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is a lot."}
{"id": "1188952468", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Lucas Shaw", "title": "Is the TV/film industry collapsing, or just reshaping itself for the future?", "question_index": 16, "text": "How big is Zaslav's salary?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he's got still mostly all these cable networks that are at best stable, at worst declining. And he's got a streaming service - or two, really. He had Discovery Plus, which was his, and HBO Max, wh"}
{"id": "1188952468", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Lucas Shaw", "title": "Is the TV/film industry collapsing, or just reshaping itself for the future?", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yeah. So he is incredibly wealthy, gets a huge salary, including stock options, yet he's, like, making thousands of people jobless. And the company, the parent company is now, you said, $50 billion in debt. Is he being applauded for that by shareholders?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It varies by the year, but suffice it to say that he's earned more than $1 billion in salary over the course of his career, I believe. You know, there was one year recently where it was at least a cou"}
{"id": "1188952468", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Lucas Shaw", "title": "Is the TV/film industry collapsing, or just reshaping itself for the future?", "question_index": 18, "text": "But CEOs like Zaslav aren't being punished with salary cutbacks or - you know, we're $50 billion in debt, so we're going to cut, like, $10 million from your salary or something like that, while so many people are being laid off at the companies owned by the parent company.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. The response to the company last year - in 2022, the shares in the company dropped dramatically. You know, the value was pretty much eviscerated because there was such a negative response to where"}
{"id": "1188952468", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Lucas Shaw", "title": "Is the TV/film industry collapsing, or just reshaping itself for the future?", "question_index": 19, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Lucas Shaw, and he covers the media for Bloomberg. We'll talk more about how the film and TV industry is changing and how that's affecting writers and actors who are striking now after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There are many people in Hollywood who have called for these executives to, if not cut their salary, forgo their entire salary and contribute that to some of these people who have been fired or laid o"}
{"id": "1188952468", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Lucas Shaw", "title": "Is the TV/film industry collapsing, or just reshaping itself for the future?", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Lucas Shaw, who covers the media industry for Bloomberg. And we're talking about the changing landscape - the dramatically changing landscape in the movie and TV industry and how that's the backdrop for the current writers and actors strike in Hollywood. Lucas, streaming was a great business when Netflix had the market kind of to itself. Now every channel and network seems to have a streaming app. How has that changed the playing field with so much competition?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There are many people in Hollywood who have called for these executives to, if not cut their salary, forgo their entire salary and contribute that to some of these people who have been fired or laid o"}
{"id": "1188952468", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Lucas Shaw", "title": "Is the TV/film industry collapsing, or just reshaping itself for the future?", "question_index": 21, "text": "One of the ways that Netflix is managing to still make a profit in spite of all the instability and change in the industry is that they're really a global company, and a lot of their profit comes from other countries. They're even making productions in other countries in other languages designed to be seen in those countries.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Netflix and all these other streaming services debuted in an environment where shareholders were encouraging them to spend money for growth. Interest rates were low. Borrowing money was cheap. A"}
{"id": "1188952468", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Lucas Shaw", "title": "Is the TV/film industry collapsing, or just reshaping itself for the future?", "question_index": 22, "text": "Do you think subscription prices to Netflix will be changing again soon, that it will be raised even more?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, about two-thirds of Netflix's customers live outside of the U.S. and Canada. You know, they have a ton of customers across Europe, particularly Western Europe. They have a lot of customers in ma"}
{"id": "1188952468", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Lucas Shaw", "title": "Is the TV/film industry collapsing, or just reshaping itself for the future?", "question_index": 23, "text": "I want to ask you about Amazon 'cause they're a big player in the movie industry now. And at the same time, I was surprised to read in your reporting how much money they've spent on films that were - or TV series that weren't successful. Like, we're talking, like, maybe a $250 million budget, which is what they spent for one season of the series \"Citadel,\" which hardly cracked the top 10. So what's going on with how they're gambling on movies and those gambles aren't working out so well?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It has to be. I mean, they're - I don't think it's imminent. You know, they're in the process of getting rid of one of their cheapest tiers, which is kind of what's called the basic tier. But there's "}
{"id": "1188952468", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Lucas Shaw", "title": "Is the TV/film industry collapsing, or just reshaping itself for the future?", "question_index": 24, "text": "Barry Diller, who founded Fox Broadcasting and USA Broadcasting, recently told Brooks Barnes, a reporter for The New York Times - and he was referring to Apple and Amazon, who now control a lot of the viewing - he said, you now have in control tech companies who haven't a care or clue about the entertainment business. For each of these companies, their minor business, not their major business, is entertainment. And yet, because of their size and influence, their minor interests are paramount in making any decision about the future. So do you think that there's any truth to what he's saying, that, you know, with the power of Apple and the power of Amazon in the media industry now, in television and movies, that they're controlling a lot of the industry, but they're not really - they don't really care that much about movies and television, that they're tech companies and they're not entertainment companies?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one of the byproducts of this - the initial exuberance and enthusiasm when it came to streaming was these companies - or the cost of making shows skyrocketed because you had new players like Net"}
{"id": "1188952468", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Lucas Shaw", "title": "Is the TV/film industry collapsing, or just reshaping itself for the future?", "question_index": 25, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Lucas Shaw, and he covers the media industry for Bloomberg. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, Barry Diller, I feel like, has been declaring the death of Hollywood for a long time now, so I do take what he says with a little grain of salt. But he's right that the growth of Amazon and "}
{"id": "1188952468", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Lucas Shaw", "title": "Is the TV/film industry collapsing, or just reshaping itself for the future?", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Lucas Shaw, who covers the changing media industry for Bloomberg. And we're focusing on the movie and TV industry and how that whole industry has been in chaos. Let's talk about the actors' strike and the writers' strike and how what they're asking for is in part a result of all of the changes that we've been talking about. Let's start by talking about the money end and how they want to share in the profits of successful films and TV shows that they make.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, Barry Diller, I feel like, has been declaring the death of Hollywood for a long time now, so I do take what he says with a little grain of salt. But he's right that the growth of Amazon and "}
{"id": "1188952468", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Lucas Shaw", "title": "Is the TV/film industry collapsing, or just reshaping itself for the future?", "question_index": 27, "text": "What else can we understand about the strikes from the kind of cast in the film and TV industry that we've been talking about and the reshaping of it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Streaming changed how any profit participant or any person involved in a show got paid, where when Netflix came around, a big part of their model was that they were going to pay people more upfront bu"}
{"id": "1188952468", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Lucas Shaw", "title": "Is the TV/film industry collapsing, or just reshaping itself for the future?", "question_index": 28, "text": "I think both sides in the strike agree that the industry is in a perilous time. COVID shut everything down. And everybody on both sides of this strike were trying to recover from that and hoping that the industry would recover. So now with the strikes, everything is shut down again. It seems like that would be incentive for both sides to remain at the table and try to settle this, so that the industry can start springing back again. Why isn't that a strong enough incentive to come to an agreement?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one of the reasons that I think you're seeing this labor stoppage is that you have workers in this industry who feel that they're being taken advantage of. You know, there's been this incredible"}
{"id": "1188952468", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Lucas Shaw", "title": "Is the TV/film industry collapsing, or just reshaping itself for the future?", "question_index": 29, "text": "So do you think this will have long-term effects on how TV networks and cable program themselves?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, for - in the case of the actors, I think they spent some time trying to reach a deal with the studios. And it became apparent that they were too far apart. And once you go on strike or once you "}
{"id": "1188952468", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Lucas Shaw", "title": "Is the TV/film industry collapsing, or just reshaping itself for the future?", "question_index": 30, "text": "Right. You create other habits.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It could. You know, I was talking with a senior executive at one of these companies recently. And maybe some of the experiments that they're trying in prime time on a network, it works, and they carry"}
{"id": "1188952468", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Lucas Shaw", "title": "Is the TV/film industry collapsing, or just reshaping itself for the future?", "question_index": 31, "text": "Well, Lucas, I want to thank you so much for talking with us. And thanks for your coverage of media and the changing landscape.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, whether it's TikTok and YouTube or whether they start to watch something on Netflix instead. You know, you look at the - Netflix's share of TV viewership in June hit an all-time high. Is that be"}
{"id": "1188952468", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Lucas Shaw", "title": "Is the TV/film industry collapsing, or just reshaping itself for the future?", "question_index": 32, "text": "Lucas Shaw is the managing editor for media and entertainment at Bloomberg and the author of the weekly newsletter Screentime. After we take a short break, book critic Maureen Corrigan will recommend two books for summer reading. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure."}
{"id": "1189243786", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering classical pianist and musical prodigy Andr\u00e9 Watts", "question_index": 0, "text": "People worry if you do that, you're going to develop bad habits that will be very difficult...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was not a lot of discipline involved, so it was just fun. And actually, I'm, in retrospect, always very thankful about the way I started playing the piano, although it's the unconventional way. "}
{"id": "1189243786", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering classical pianist and musical prodigy Andr\u00e9 Watts", "question_index": 1, "text": "...To break.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1189243786", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering classical pianist and musical prodigy Andr\u00e9 Watts", "question_index": 2, "text": "Did it take a while before your teacher gave you music that you could play that you also really enjoyed as music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is true, of course, that then when I - this was all in Germany. And then when I came to the United States, when I came to Philadelphia, then my mother thought, well, it seems like he has some talen"}
{"id": "1189243786", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering classical pianist and musical prodigy Andr\u00e9 Watts", "question_index": 3, "text": "Obviously, when you were very young, a lot of people had the sense that you were an especially gifted pianist. Did you feel gifted or special when you were 9 at the time that you played with the orchestra?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No because, you know, when - I came to Philadelphia when I was 8. And by the time I was sort of 8 1/2 or almost 9, I had auditioned to play with the Philadelphia Orchestra with the Haydn concerto. So "}
{"id": "1189243786", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering classical pianist and musical prodigy Andr\u00e9 Watts", "question_index": 4, "text": "Well...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, sure, I probably realized that this was something that I did well that the kids in my class didn't do. But, you know, there were lots of other children who won at the same time that I did and wh"}
{"id": "1189243786", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering classical pianist and musical prodigy Andr\u00e9 Watts", "question_index": 5, "text": "It's funny that you should say uninhibited way that children perform 'cause a lot of children were very traumatized by having to get on stage and perform when they were young, either for talent shows or in school or whatever or even at family reunions when their mother would say, play them Brahms, dear. They're all here to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And prevent a career or prevent continuing to play in front of the public."}
{"id": "1189243786", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering classical pianist and musical prodigy Andr\u00e9 Watts", "question_index": 6, "text": "...See us today.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But..."}
{"id": "1189243786", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering classical pianist and musical prodigy Andr\u00e9 Watts", "question_index": 7, "text": "Of playing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's interesting that you're saying that. Do you think - I mean, I don't know if we should get into this discussion, but do you think they're traumatized by the actual act of, you know..."}
{"id": "1189243786", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering classical pianist and musical prodigy Andr\u00e9 Watts", "question_index": 8, "text": "Yeah, I think the hassle isn't...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Of being a trained seal, by the act of it? Or are they traumatized by all the stuff that that entails, vis a vis the parent, the teacher and all that stuff? Isn't that what the hassle is?"}
{"id": "1189243786", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering classical pianist and musical prodigy Andr\u00e9 Watts", "question_index": 9, "text": "...The playing but...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And the..."}
{"id": "1189243786", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering classical pianist and musical prodigy Andr\u00e9 Watts", "question_index": 10, "text": "...The playing at the beck and call of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1189243786", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering classical pianist and musical prodigy Andr\u00e9 Watts", "question_index": 11, "text": "...The adult and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1189243786", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering classical pianist and musical prodigy Andr\u00e9 Watts", "question_index": 12, "text": "Yeah, being an object that you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And being called out, you know?"}
{"id": "1189243786", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering classical pianist and musical prodigy Andr\u00e9 Watts", "question_index": 13, "text": "...Show off. Yes, that's right. Well, did anything like that ever happen to you? I mean...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Roll over and play dead."}
{"id": "1189243786", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering classical pianist and musical prodigy Andr\u00e9 Watts", "question_index": 14, "text": "Did you ever feel like a show piece for somebody else?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "1189243786", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering classical pianist and musical prodigy Andr\u00e9 Watts", "question_index": 15, "text": "That's interesting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I was, again, fortunate because my mother certainly was never, in any stretch of the imagination, a stage mother. She didn't like the idea of - she didn't think it was good to have young children "}
{"id": "1189243786", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering classical pianist and musical prodigy Andr\u00e9 Watts", "question_index": 16, "text": "By the time you were 16, you played with the New York Philharmonic for the Young People's Concert.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1189243786", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering classical pianist and musical prodigy Andr\u00e9 Watts", "question_index": 17, "text": "And then you sat in for the ailing Glenn Gould a few days after that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1189243786", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering classical pianist and musical prodigy Andr\u00e9 Watts", "question_index": 18, "text": "...With the New York Philharmonic. Did you start thinking at that point, well, I've made it this far; I can either keep going, or I can do something terrible here and fail? Did you feel the incredible pressure that was on you then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1189243786", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering classical pianist and musical prodigy Andr\u00e9 Watts", "question_index": 19, "text": "What brought you out of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, but not till those concerts were over and not until maybe two or three months later. I felt the pressure very strongly. You see; I played that - the two subscription concerts in place of Glenn G"}
{"id": "1189243786", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering classical pianist and musical prodigy Andr\u00e9 Watts", "question_index": 20, "text": "So at that point, you stopped using other people's reactions as your gauge of how well you were playing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I - a number of things, I think. It would be difficult for me to pinpoint. I really believe that at a certain point early on, I realized that you could have a great success even if you played li"}
{"id": "1189243786", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering classical pianist and musical prodigy Andr\u00e9 Watts", "question_index": 21, "text": "Your mother's white, and your father was Black. I'd like to know if you felt between two different worlds when you were growing up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're listening to Terry's 1985 interview with classical pianist Andre Watts, who died last week at the age of 77."}
{"id": "1189243786", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering classical pianist and musical prodigy Andr\u00e9 Watts", "question_index": 22, "text": "When you became of age and started entering the performance world and everything, did anyone ever say to you, well, say, you're part Black; shouldn't you be playing jazz?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Precisely. But actually, I've never been asked that question that way. People usually assume and ask with the assumption in the question that you either felt part of the white community or part of the"}
{"id": "1189243786", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering classical pianist and musical prodigy Andr\u00e9 Watts", "question_index": 23, "text": "What would you say to that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, all the time."}
{"id": "1189243786", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering classical pianist and musical prodigy Andr\u00e9 Watts", "question_index": 24, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first I laugh because, I mean - and for a variety of reasons, I laugh. It's probably funny. I - perhaps I laugh out of embarrassment for the other person, not for myself. I really don't know wha"}
{"id": "1189243786", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering classical pianist and musical prodigy Andr\u00e9 Watts", "question_index": 25, "text": "When you began to be successful in the classical music world, did you become an important symbol to Black audiences?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, you know, it's sort of - I can understand it, of course. It's - you don't really expect - one, the world is not really accustomed to having brown-skinned people playing - sitting at a piano, p"}
{"id": "1189243786", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering classical pianist and musical prodigy Andr\u00e9 Watts", "question_index": 26, "text": "Do you think your playing's changed a lot over the years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. I got to ask Black audiences. I mean, I like the idea of the role model business. Beyond that, I don't know. I was never very much of an activist. I also have never been - I'm probably e"}
{"id": "1189252886", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Soccer star Megan Rapinoe says patriotism means demanding better of ourselves", "question_index": 0, "text": "When you started playing soccer, when you were around 6, there wasn't, like, a girls' team for you to be part of. So you and your twin sister became members of the boys' team. How did it feel for you as a girl to be on the boys' team? Because, you know, another thing you say in your book is that you don't think you ever dominated a team the way you dominated that boys' team when you were a child.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. The Women's World Cup began this week, and it will be the final World Cup for one of women's soccer's most iconic stars - Megan Rapinoe. She announced recently tha"}
{"id": "1189252886", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Soccer star Megan Rapinoe says patriotism means demanding better of ourselves", "question_index": 1, "text": "And, you know, I'm also wondering, like, did the boys really appreciate that? Like, she's really great, and she's on our team? Or did they think it was weird or maybe even uncomfortable that a girl was, like, beating them? You know, you were on the same team, but you were better than they were.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1189252886", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Soccer star Megan Rapinoe says patriotism means demanding better of ourselves", "question_index": 2, "text": "You write that you knew you were never going to be the fastest player or the strongest player, so you had to develop a style rooted in something other than beating people through physical force. Do you think that thinking that you wouldn't be, like, the strongest or the fastest helped you develop your footwork?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I don't think I ever really, really thought about it probably until, you know, fifth or sixth grade. I think that's when gender lines are drawn more clearly. Because, you know, all growing u"}
{"id": "1189252886", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Soccer star Megan Rapinoe says patriotism means demanding better of ourselves", "question_index": 3, "text": "So I want to ask you about one of your most spectacular plays, which a lot of us have seen either when it happened or on YouTube because the video went viral. It was in 2011. You kick the ball across the field, a big, amazing cross. And then Abby Wambach headed it in to the goal. So I want you to describe it from your perspective.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, definitely. I think it helped me develop not just my footwork, but my awareness in the game. Some people can outrun everyone. Some people are better understanding spatial awareness. I think "}
{"id": "1189252886", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Soccer star Megan Rapinoe says patriotism means demanding better of ourselves", "question_index": 4, "text": "You were one of the first women on the U.S. national women's soccer team to come out, although you say there were plenty of other women who were gay but not out. You say you were one of the only gay players at the time, which is hilarious considering how many gay people were really on the team. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We're in Dresden, Germany. It's 2011. This is my first World Cup. The game is going very strange from the outset. The crowd actually was quite neutral. I think whenever we travel, we generally get a p"}
{"id": "1189252886", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Soccer star Megan Rapinoe says patriotism means demanding better of ourselves", "question_index": 5, "text": "...What made you decide, like, you were going to publicly come out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1189252886", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Soccer star Megan Rapinoe says patriotism means demanding better of ourselves", "question_index": 6, "text": "And what changed afterwards?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I honestly felt like - I mean, even going back to when I first sort of discovered I was gay myself, which happened very shortly after I got to college, I never struggled with that. I was act"}
{"id": "1189252886", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Soccer star Megan Rapinoe says patriotism means demanding better of ourselves", "question_index": 7, "text": "So, you know, we've talked about your work as an LGBTQ activist. You took a knee in 2016, a week after Colin Kaepernick did. You were 31. You were a veteran of two World Cups and two Olympic Games. And it sounds from your memoir like it was a pretty spontaneous move on your part. Tell us what went through your mind when you did it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2020 interview with soccer star and activist Megan Rapinoe. She recently announced that she'll retire at the end of the season after 17 years."}
{"id": "1189252886", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Soccer star Megan Rapinoe says patriotism means demanding better of ourselves", "question_index": 8, "text": "So I want to read something that you reprint in your memoir. And this is what U.S. Soccer said in an official statement. And you say it might as well have been headed dear Megan. So the statement was (reading) representing your country is a privilege and honor for any player or coach that is associated with U.S. Soccer's national team. In front of national and often global audiences, the playing of our national anthem is an opportunity for our men's and women's national team players and coaches to reflect upon the liberties and freedom we all appreciate in the country. As part of the privilege to represent your country, we have an expectation that our players and coaches will stand and honor our flag while the national anthem is played. What was your reaction when you read that statement?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What I was thinking at the time - so we've gone through, you know, the summer of 2014. We've gone through the Black Lives Matter protests. You know, going through 2015, that's all still happening. 201"}
{"id": "1189252886", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Soccer star Megan Rapinoe says patriotism means demanding better of ourselves", "question_index": 9, "text": "What are some of the repercussions you faced professionally?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I couldn't believe it. I think I was truly sort of dumbstruck. It really upset me. The nerve and the audacity to say what they did in that statement - it is an honor and a privilege that we all have i"}
{"id": "1189252886", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Soccer star Megan Rapinoe says patriotism means demanding better of ourselves", "question_index": 10, "text": "And did you regret kneeling because of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They're sort of gray repercussions, I'll say. You know, in - like, in terms of sponsorships, I didn't lose any sponsorships, which I think is great. Obviously, Nike's a big sponsor of mine. They have "}
{"id": "1189252886", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Soccer star Megan Rapinoe says patriotism means demanding better of ourselves", "question_index": 11, "text": "U.S. Soccer did eventually lift the ban. When did they lift it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No, no. Definitely not. I mean, I think, honestly, the only thing that I regret, maybe, was, when I came back, that I didn't keep kneeling. That's something that I feel like I still struggle with."}
{"id": "1189252886", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Soccer star Megan Rapinoe says patriotism means demanding better of ourselves", "question_index": 12, "text": "So you're very stylish in your streetwear and in red carpet looks. And I forget which trophy that you won, but you wore - it was like a gown with a plunge neckline - very stylish and elegant and very feminine. And you're somebody who used to always dress like a boy", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As, you know, the tragic murder of George Floyd, Ahmaud Arbery and Breonna Taylor, as the protests subsequently, you know, swept the nation, I think that they realized that, that policy not only is no"}
{"id": "1189252886", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Soccer star Megan Rapinoe says patriotism means demanding better of ourselves", "question_index": 13, "text": "when you were young. So when - oh, and I should mention, like, during one big game, you dyed your hair platinum, during another, you dyed it pink. So when did that happen, that you became conscious of style?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As, you know, the tragic murder of George Floyd, Ahmaud Arbery and Breonna Taylor, as the protests subsequently, you know, swept the nation, I think that they realized that, that policy not only is no"}
{"id": "1189252886", "date": "2023-07-21", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Soccer star Megan Rapinoe says patriotism means demanding better of ourselves", "question_index": 14, "text": "Megan Rapinoe, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I think I've always been conscious of style. I think I'm much more stylish now than I used to be. But I think I've always been - you know, I've always, like, had jewelry or tied little thing"}
{"id": "1189739081", "date": "2023-07-24", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead channels the paranoia and fear of 1970s NYC in 'Crook Manifesto'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Colson Whitehead, won Pulitzer Prizes for two consecutive novels. The first Pulitzer was for \"The Underground Railroad,\" an allegory about race in America told through the stories of an escaped slave and a slave catcher. It was adapted into an Amazon series. The second Pulitzer was for \"The Nickel Boys,\" based on the true story of a segregated state reform school for boys in which the boys were physically abused and dozens died. A film adaptation starring Aunjanue Ellis is in the works. After writing about those grim subjects, Whitehead started writing crime novels set in Harlem. These novels give him the chance to write snappy dialogue laced with witty observations while writing about class and race, as well as crime and corruption at every level - from petty criminals to cops, city politicians and Harlem's elite. \"Harlem Shuffle,\" the first novel in his projected \"Harlem\" trilogy, was set in the '60s. The new novel, \"Crook Manifesto,\" takes place from 1971 to '76. It brings back the main character, Ray Carney, the owner of a furniture store on 125th Street in Harlem, who takes pride in upgrading his customer's living rooms with comfortable, quality sofas and recliners. But it's the money he's earned from fencing stolen goods that's enabled him to move from a cramped apartment to the home he owns on Harlem's Strivers' Row. Fencing got him deeper into crime than he was prepared for. In the opening of \"Crook Manifesto,\" he's been retired from crime for four years. But when his daughter insists that she needs tickets to the Jackson 5 concert but they're sold out, he goes to the person he's confident can get him a pair - a corrupt white cop. By asking for a favor, Carney is forced to perform one in return, which leads him to become the unwitting accomplice to a murder. The novel's characters include a leader of the revolutionary group the Black Liberation Army, the producer of a blaxploitation film and a groundbreaking comic who seems based on Richard Pryor. Sirens from police cars and fire trucks are the background noise throughout the book. Colson Whitehead, welcome back to FRESH AIR. It's so great to have you back again. And I'm so glad you wrote a sequel to \"Harlem Shuffle\" because it's really such an enjoyable series. So I want to start by asking you to read a section from the first chapter of the book. Just to set it up, why don't you explain the scene? Set the scene for us.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1189739081", "date": "2023-07-24", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead channels the paranoia and fear of 1970s NYC in 'Crook Manifesto'", "question_index": 1, "text": "That's Colson Whitehead reading from his new novel, \"Crook Manifesto.\" It's interesting that you get in, like, the Panthers versus the Black Liberation Army by Page 9. And the impression I get, you know, from that passage is that the Panthers and the BLA, they're making headlines. But to the people in Harlem and the people who work at Ray Carney's store and to Ray Carney himself, it's confusing what the difference is. And their revolutionary politics isn't meaning very much to the people in Ray's world.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. It's the opening of the book, 1971, and Ray Carney, our furniture store owner/part-time fence, is having a normal day of business, which means there's a lot of noise and crazy activity outside o"}
{"id": "1189739081", "date": "2023-07-24", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead channels the paranoia and fear of 1970s NYC in 'Crook Manifesto'", "question_index": 2, "text": "Why did you want to pick it up there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, it's 1970, 1971, and there's this rift in the Black Panther Party. How do we actually get things done? Can we work within the American system, or do we want revolution? And so the Black "}
{"id": "1189739081", "date": "2023-07-24", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead channels the paranoia and fear of 1970s NYC in 'Crook Manifesto'", "question_index": 3, "text": "The Black Liberation Army in your novel is in with some corrupt cops in terms of expropriating money from businesses and banks. So were they together in the real world, the members of the Black Liberation Party and corrupt cops who were willing to steal money or get payoffs in order to do what they wanted to do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had a system where the first book would be about the '60s and the second about the '70s, and I'm trying to find moments that - of opportunity, you know, for storytelling that speak to Carney's dilem"}
{"id": "1189739081", "date": "2023-07-24", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead channels the paranoia and fear of 1970s NYC in 'Crook Manifesto'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Do you feel like you're smearing the BLA by doing that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there are incredibly corrupt cops in New York in 1971. It's the year of the Knapp Commission, a big police corruption investigation that people might have heard of through Serpico. Is there a do"}
{"id": "1189739081", "date": "2023-07-24", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead channels the paranoia and fear of 1970s NYC in 'Crook Manifesto'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Ray Carney's son asks him about the difference between the BLA and the Panthers. And, you know, the father says, well, the Panthers are about reform, and the Black Liberation Army is about revolution. It's kind of the difference between, you know, like, the sofas and the recliners that I sell on the store and the Castro convertible, which was a revolution. And the Castro convertible was, I think, like, the first couch that converted to a bed. And the father says, you know, Castro convertible - you open it up and, poof, you know, like, your living room is a bedroom. It's a revolution", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think, you know, they're sort of cagey about what they were up to in the early '70s - even still, even after they've - some of them have fled to Cuba or served their prison sentences. So I'll let th"}
{"id": "1189739081", "date": "2023-07-24", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead channels the paranoia and fear of 1970s NYC in 'Crook Manifesto'", "question_index": 6, "text": ". And I think, like, what a hilarious way of explaining it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think, you know, they're sort of cagey about what they were up to in the early '70s - even still, even after they've - some of them have fled to Cuba or served their prison sentences. So I'll let th"}
{"id": "1189739081", "date": "2023-07-24", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead channels the paranoia and fear of 1970s NYC in 'Crook Manifesto'", "question_index": 7, "text": "The way he gets back into crime is that his daughter says, you promised you'd get me tickets to the Jackson 5, but there are no tickets left. And she says, but you promised. So even though they're sold out, he knows that Munson, this corrupt white cop, knows how to get things that are ungettable (ph). So he leans on Munson to get the tickets, but in return, Munson wants him to fence some jewels, like $2,000 - no, I'm sorry, $200,000 worth of jewels. And that's what gets Carney in over his head.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's always bringing things back to furniture, you know? And I think that's one of the fun things about the book is that he's not your typical criminal. Everything is filtered through his work, his ne"}
{"id": "1189739081", "date": "2023-07-24", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead channels the paranoia and fear of 1970s NYC in 'Crook Manifesto'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, let me introduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Colson Whitehead. His new novel is called \"Crook Manifesto.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's retired. And I think one of the tropes of this kind of story is that when the criminal retires, forces conspire to bring him back in. And in this case, it's the Jackson 5, who are at the height o"}
{"id": "1189739081", "date": "2023-07-24", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead channels the paranoia and fear of 1970s NYC in 'Crook Manifesto'", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Colson Whitehead. He won Pulitzer Prizes for his novels \"The Underground Railroad\" and \"The Nickel Boys.\" His new book, \"Crook Manifesto,\" is a crime novel set in Harlem in the '70s. It's a sequel to his novel \"Harlem Shuffle,\" which was set in Harlem in the '60s. Their main character, Ray Carney, is a furniture store owner in Harlem who also fences stolen jewels and more and keeps getting deeper into crime. Clothes figure prominently in the new book. This is, after all, the 1970s, the era of big collars and big hair", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's retired. And I think one of the tropes of this kind of story is that when the criminal retires, forces conspire to bring him back in. And in this case, it's the Jackson 5, who are at the height o"}
{"id": "1189739081", "date": "2023-07-24", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead channels the paranoia and fear of 1970s NYC in 'Crook Manifesto'", "question_index": 10, "text": "and jumpsuits and the color orange. And you wrote, the flamboyant quotient in Harlem was at a record high. The line between the stylish and the pimpified (ph) was unstable, ill-defined. The men on the corner were pimps, no doubt", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's retired. And I think one of the tropes of this kind of story is that when the criminal retires, forces conspire to bring him back in. And in this case, it's the Jackson 5, who are at the height o"}
{"id": "1189739081", "date": "2023-07-24", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead channels the paranoia and fear of 1970s NYC in 'Crook Manifesto'", "question_index": 11, "text": ". So, and then - yeah, so talk about that line between, you know, what pimps were wearing and what everybody was wearing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's retired. And I think one of the tropes of this kind of story is that when the criminal retires, forces conspire to bring him back in. And in this case, it's the Jackson 5, who are at the height o"}
{"id": "1189739081", "date": "2023-07-24", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead channels the paranoia and fear of 1970s NYC in 'Crook Manifesto'", "question_index": 12, "text": "I was glad you worked in Blaxploitation films of the period, and one of the characters is making one and one of the smalltime criminals becomes the security guard. So you had to figure out what was the plot going to be for the Blaxploitation film that you were creating. So talk about doing that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, I think, you know, that stereotypical image of the pimp was actually real. If you go back and look at photographs of people in the lifestyle, anything that was crazy and outrageous that "}
{"id": "1189739081", "date": "2023-07-24", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead channels the paranoia and fear of 1970s NYC in 'Crook Manifesto'", "question_index": 13, "text": "So give us an example of what made you cringe in \"Blacula\" or any of the other films that you watched for the book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mentioned \"Black Caesar,\" which is a crime lord's rise. \"Blacula\" was very important to me as a young kid. There weren't a lot of films with Black actors growing up, and so I gravitated, as a 7-, 8-"}
{"id": "1189739081", "date": "2023-07-24", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead channels the paranoia and fear of 1970s NYC in 'Crook Manifesto'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Part of the blaxploitation section of the film is set in Greenwich Village, and there's a Black comic performing at a club there who I think is modeled a little bit on Richard Pryor?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think any time they bring in a - like, saving a community center from the white industrialist - I mean, there's a whole thing about - \"Cleopatra Jones\" is a famous blaxploitation movie with a high-k"}
{"id": "1189739081", "date": "2023-07-24", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead channels the paranoia and fear of 1970s NYC in 'Crook Manifesto'", "question_index": 15, "text": "What did he mean to you when you were growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, Richard Pryor was important to me growing up - you know, his sort of cultural commentary. And at this period, 1973, he's already sort of broken away from his square persona in the early '60s, do"}
{"id": "1189739081", "date": "2023-07-24", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead channels the paranoia and fear of 1970s NYC in 'Crook Manifesto'", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, let's take another short break here and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Colson Whitehead. His new novel, \"Crook Manifesto,\" is a sequel to his novel \"Harlem Shuffle.\" \"Harlem Shuffle\" was set in Harlem in the '60s, and \"Crook Manifesto\" is set in Harlem in the '70s. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, a favorite activity in my house was watching HBO, whether it was George Carlin or Richard Pryor. And both of these guys would veer between the tragic and the absurd, you know, from minute to"}
{"id": "1189739081", "date": "2023-07-24", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead channels the paranoia and fear of 1970s NYC in 'Crook Manifesto'", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Colson Whitehead. His new novel, \"Crook Manifesto,\" is a crime novel set in Harlem in the years 1971 to '76. The main character, Ray Carney, owns a furniture store that specializes in comfortable recliners and sofas. But he's also a fence, laundering and selling stolen goods like expensive jewelry. But he keeps getting pushed deeper into crime. His part of the underworld includes corrupt cops, Black revolutionaries, city politicians and professional criminals. One of the characters in the novel takes a job as the security for a blaxploitation film. \"Crook Manifesto\" is the second in Whitehead's trilogy of Harlem novels. The first, \"Harlem Shuffle,\" was set in the '60s. The third is projected to be in the '80s. Whitehead won back-to-back Pulitzer Prizes for his novel \"The Underground Railroad,\" which was adapted into an Amazon series, and \"The Nickel Boys,\" which is being made into a film. Your novel ends in 1976, before - just, like, basically right before hip-hop makes it onto the radio. So I'm assuming that, you know, hip-hop, rap, will make it into your third book in your trilogy, which will be set in the '80s.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Who's the Black private dick that's a sex machine to all the chicks? Shaft. Damn right. Who is the man that would risk his neck for his brother man? Shaft. Can you dig it? Who's the cat that"}
{"id": "1189739081", "date": "2023-07-24", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead channels the paranoia and fear of 1970s NYC in 'Crook Manifesto'", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean, I kept coming up with different capers and adventures for Carney. And so the first book, \"Harlem Shuffle,\" became three different stories. This book had three different stories. And now "}
{"id": "1189739081", "date": "2023-07-24", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead channels the paranoia and fear of 1970s NYC in 'Crook Manifesto'", "question_index": 19, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Bronx sound system extravaganzas."}
{"id": "1189739081", "date": "2023-07-24", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead channels the paranoia and fear of 1970s NYC in 'Crook Manifesto'", "question_index": 20, "text": "Was that a motivation for you, that things are really terrible outside, but maybe you could make something new?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I did feel a connection, you know, writing this book during the pandemic. I was in New York. And the streets were empty that first year when we - before we sort of opened up again. And I was writi"}
{"id": "1189739081", "date": "2023-07-24", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead channels the paranoia and fear of 1970s NYC in 'Crook Manifesto'", "question_index": 21, "text": "So let's talk furniture for a minute, since Ray Carney, your main character, owns a furniture store. What's some of the differences between the '60s furniture that he sells in \"Harlem Shuffle\" and the '70s furniture that he sells in \"Crook Manifesto\"? I have to tell you, I think of - I think it's, like, kind of the cusp between the '60s and '70s when fiberglass chairs come in, those molded fiberglass chairs that were often, like, orange", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I got a second wind of work because I couldn't go anywhere. And so, usually, I stop work around 3 or 4. But during the pandemic, I had a second shift from 4 to 7. And it was just a very productive tim"}
{"id": "1189739081", "date": "2023-07-24", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead channels the paranoia and fear of 1970s NYC in 'Crook Manifesto'", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I got a second wind of work because I couldn't go anywhere. And so, usually, I stop work around 3 or 4. But during the pandemic, I had a second shift from 4 to 7. And it was just a very productive tim"}
{"id": "1189739081", "date": "2023-07-24", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead channels the paranoia and fear of 1970s NYC in 'Crook Manifesto'", "question_index": 23, "text": "A conversation pit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. If - when we go to Martin Green's (ph) apartment, the hipster jewel broker, he's definitely outfitted his place with a cool hi-fi stereo and the kind of plastic furniture from Europe. Carney, yo"}
{"id": "1189739081", "date": "2023-07-24", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead channels the paranoia and fear of 1970s NYC in 'Crook Manifesto'", "question_index": 24, "text": "OK. So did you start collecting '70s furniture to write the book? Like, where did you go to see it? Or did you just look in books?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". We didn't have one in our house, but the conversation pit was the thing."}
{"id": "1189739081", "date": "2023-07-24", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead channels the paranoia and fear of 1970s NYC in 'Crook Manifesto'", "question_index": 25, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sometimes, you know, I'd try to get into character, and sometimes I'm faking it. Definitely, my affinity is with '50s and '60s mid-century modern furniture. I did not go out and populate my home with "}
{"id": "1189739081", "date": "2023-07-24", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead channels the paranoia and fear of 1970s NYC in 'Crook Manifesto'", "question_index": 26, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Colson Whitehead. His new novel is called \"Crook Manifesto.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...On this very plush, fuzzy couch - seems very warm and inviting. And even if the streets in Harlem are going sort of crazy, you can come into Carney's Furniture and buy - assemble your cozy oasis."}
{"id": "1189739081", "date": "2023-07-24", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead channels the paranoia and fear of 1970s NYC in 'Crook Manifesto'", "question_index": 27, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Colson Whitehead. He won Pulitzer Prizes for his novels \"The Underground Railroad\" and \"The Nickel Boys.\" His new book, \"Crook Manifesto,\" is a crime novel set in Harlem in the '70s. It's a sequel to his novel \"Harlem Shuffle,\" which was set in the '60s. Their main character, Ray Carney, is a furniture store owner in Harlem who also fences stolen jewels and more and keeps getting deeper into crime. Since the Panthers and the Black Liberation Army figure into your novel, what was your introduction to them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...On this very plush, fuzzy couch - seems very warm and inviting. And even if the streets in Harlem are going sort of crazy, you can come into Carney's Furniture and buy - assemble your cozy oasis."}
{"id": "1189739081", "date": "2023-07-24", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead channels the paranoia and fear of 1970s NYC in 'Crook Manifesto'", "question_index": 28, "text": "Was your family involved in any aspect of the Civil Rights or post-Civil Rights era?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean, I think probably in a very cheesy way, like on bad TV shows like \"Good Times\" or \"The White Shadow.\" I think, you know, I was coming of age in the late '70s and consuming TV and movies, "}
{"id": "1189739081", "date": "2023-07-24", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead channels the paranoia and fear of 1970s NYC in 'Crook Manifesto'", "question_index": 29, "text": "So growing up seeing the Panthers as described in sitcoms or \"The White Shadow,\" did you not take them seriously, or did they seem foolish because of their portrayal on sitcoms? Is that - was that your first impression?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I love, you know, hearing the story about my mom and dad going to the March on Washington. They weren't activists. They were people trying to raise a family in an incredibly racist country and f"}
{"id": "1189739081", "date": "2023-07-24", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead channels the paranoia and fear of 1970s NYC in 'Crook Manifesto'", "question_index": 30, "text": "You've said in an interview that you retreated into pop culture in part to escape your father's alcohol-fueled rages. Can you talk about that a little bit? Is that too personal?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no. I think there's this - you know, they were holy. The rift that I describe in \"Harlem Shuffle\" between people who were more revolutionary oriented versus reformist was not part of, you know, "}
{"id": "1189739081", "date": "2023-07-24", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead channels the paranoia and fear of 1970s NYC in 'Crook Manifesto'", "question_index": 31, "text": "One of your novels, \"Sag Harbor,\" is inspired by the summers you spent in Sag Harbor. Can you describe Sag Harbor and its significance in your life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is a bit personal. But I think, you know, being able to close my door and retreat into these imaginary worlds, whether it was - you know, whether I was 7 years old or 8 years old, and think about w"}
{"id": "1189739081", "date": "2023-07-24", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead channels the paranoia and fear of 1970s NYC in 'Crook Manifesto'", "question_index": 32, "text": "In the novel, the main character has a brother who's - I don't know - like, 10 months apart in age - something like that. And so it's as if they were twins when they're very young, and then they go their separate ways. Did you have a sibling who was that close in age to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sag Harbor is a town on the east end of Long Island, sort of better known as the Hamptons. And there's a town in that Hamptons constellation called Sag Harbor. It was an old whaling town. And there's "}
{"id": "1189739081", "date": "2023-07-24", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead channels the paranoia and fear of 1970s NYC in 'Crook Manifesto'", "question_index": 33, "text": "I'm sorry to hear that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, my brother, who passed away a couple years ago..."}
{"id": "1189739081", "date": "2023-07-24", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead channels the paranoia and fear of 1970s NYC in 'Crook Manifesto'", "question_index": 34, "text": "Did you like having somebody - like having a brother who was so close in age to you that people thought you were twins?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Was - we were 10 months apart, and everyone thought that we were twins 'cause we were a little unit, sort of inseparable. And, you know, part of the book is capturing the beauty of that twinhood an"}
{"id": "1189739081", "date": "2023-07-24", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead channels the paranoia and fear of 1970s NYC in 'Crook Manifesto'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Was your breakup acrimonious?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, now it's - you know, we sort of - we broke up in high school. But it was very - you know, it was a very, very special thing. You know, we did everything together, whether it was, you know, r"}
{"id": "1189739081", "date": "2023-07-24", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead channels the paranoia and fear of 1970s NYC in 'Crook Manifesto'", "question_index": 36, "text": "Did your brother's death make you think about your own mortality?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, it was - you know, in high school, I think the burden of being a semi-respectable teenager was a bit much for us. You know, I think we all had to - we each had to find our own different "}
{"id": "1189739081", "date": "2023-07-24", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead channels the paranoia and fear of 1970s NYC in 'Crook Manifesto'", "question_index": 37, "text": "So while we've been talking about the '70s, has your head really been in the '80s 'cause you're working on that new novel now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My brother, you know, was in sort of bad health for many years. And definitely in the \"Nickel Boys\" and in \"Harlem Shuffle,\" I was trying to figure out that relationship. Both those novels have, you k"}
{"id": "1189739081", "date": "2023-07-24", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead channels the paranoia and fear of 1970s NYC in 'Crook Manifesto'", "question_index": 38, "text": "He's not going to read it. If he's not in it, you know, he's not going to read it. You've just lost one reader.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm trying to figure out whether the '80s will work for Carney and his gang. So New York has come out of the fiscal crisis. Wall Street's booming again, and we're getting that, you know, boom-and-bust"}
{"id": "1189739081", "date": "2023-07-24", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead channels the paranoia and fear of 1970s NYC in 'Crook Manifesto'", "question_index": 39, "text": "Just one more thing. I know that you've said that when you walk around outside, you often have, like, an expressionless face, or you look sad 'cause you're thinking. And I think people ask you, like, what's wrong?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, yeah, so is New York in 1981 fruitful territory? 1984, 1986, '87? New York does, you know, find its footing financially. And then in the late '80s, the AIDS crisis, the crack epidemic is sort of w"}
{"id": "1189739081", "date": "2023-07-24", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead channels the paranoia and fear of 1970s NYC in 'Crook Manifesto'", "question_index": 40, "text": "That always used to happen to me when I was growing up. Like, people would come up to me and say, oh, honey, what's wrong? Are you lost? What's your reaction when people do that to you? Do they still?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "1189739081", "date": "2023-07-24", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead channels the paranoia and fear of 1970s NYC in 'Crook Manifesto'", "question_index": 41, "text": "I wish I'd thought of that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I'd say, you know, I was thinking about death or something."}
{"id": "1189739081", "date": "2023-07-24", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead channels the paranoia and fear of 1970s NYC in 'Crook Manifesto'", "question_index": 42, "text": "I'll remember that the next time that somebody does that to me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I'd say, you know, I was thinking about death or something."}
{"id": "1189739081", "date": "2023-07-24", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead channels the paranoia and fear of 1970s NYC in 'Crook Manifesto'", "question_index": 43, "text": "Colson, thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, there you go."}
{"id": "1189739081", "date": "2023-07-24", "guest": "Colson Whitehead", "title": "Colson Whitehead channels the paranoia and fear of 1970s NYC in 'Crook Manifesto'", "question_index": 44, "text": "Colson Whitehead's new novel is called \"Crook Manifesto.\" After we take a short break, TV critic David Bianculli will review two new books about TV - one a memoir by the creator of \"Laugh-In,\" the other dedicated to the man David describes as one of TV's first creative geniuses. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure, sure. Take care. Thanks a lot."}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We had planned an interview about how extreme and disruptive the far-right members of the House of Representatives have become. I recorded that interview with New York Times congressional correspondent Annie Karni yesterday morning. Later in the day, special counsel Jack Smith indicted former President Donald Trump on three counts of conspiracy - to defraud the U.S., to obstruct an official government proceeding and to deprive people of civil rights provided by federal law or the Constitution. There's also a fourth count of obstructing an official proceeding. On January 6, the day of the attack on the Capitol, Annie Karni was a New York Times White House correspondent. She came back to the studio this morning to discuss the new charges against Trump. A little later, we'll hear the interview I recorded with her yesterday. Annie Karni, thank you for coming back to the studio.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 1, "text": "So you had already reported some of what's in this new charging document. And a lot of what's in this document was also in the January 6 House select committee. What did you learn that was new?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 2, "text": "What do you know about how House Republicans on the far right who are still supporting Trump - reacting to these new indictments?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "First of all, this looked like a 45-page, kind of slimmed-down version of the 845-page January 6 report that the House Investigative Committee put out last year. And the narrative overall was pretty m"}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 3, "text": "I keep wondering if by defending Trump, the members of Congress who voted to decertify the Electoral College vote, if they're defending themselves because they are implicated. They did try to overturn the results of the election. Eight senators and 139 representatives voted to decertify the Electoral College vote. So I don't know how many of them are still left in Congress now, but do you think that by defending Trump, those people who voted to decertify the Electoral College results are also defending themselves?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There weren't a lot of surprises in the statements we saw last night. This is Trump's third indictment. It's by far the most serious. And it also is different for House Republicans 'cause a lot of the"}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 4, "text": "Congress returns from the August recess in September. To avoid a government shutdown, they have to fund 11 more spending bills before October 1. What are the implications for a government shutdown now that we have this new set of charges against Trump?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think they are. And a lot of them still are in Congress. And a lot of the base - you know, this big lie that, you know, the election was stolen is a big part of what a lot of the hardcore base belie"}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 5, "text": "Annie, thank you for coming back for this update.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah. I mean, these charging documents have great big-picture implications for democracy and the future of our country, but granularly for Congress, we saw some statements put out last night tha"}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 6, "text": "I spoke to Annie Karni this morning. She's a congressional correspondent for The New York Times and a former Times White House correspondent. OK. Let's get to the interview I recorded with her yesterday about the far right in Congress. Congress is out on recess and won't return until mid-September. It will have only until October 1 to avert a government shutdown. Eleven more spending bills would first have to pass, but the far-right wing of the House has added amendments to spending bills, including measures that would further restrict abortion and transgender medical care. And those bills with those amendments would be very unlikely to pass in the Senate, and President Biden would likely veto them if they did. Annie Karni has written about how the hard right in the House has been expanding and fracturing as its members struggle to figure out how to exert their power and how they're also divided over how disruptive they want to be. She's covered the recent fights among Republicans in the House, as well as fights between House Democrats and Republicans. Annie Karni, welcome to FRESH AIR. So the hard-right faction in the House keeps moving further to the right. Now you've got not only the House Freedom Caucus, but another group that's moved even further to the right called the 20. How would you compare the 20 to the Freedom Caucus?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much."}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 7, "text": "So 11 more spending bills have to pass to avoid a government shutdown. And Republicans have put what's considered culture war issues into some of the spending bills. So give us a couple of examples of how, like, abortion and transgender care now figure into spending bills.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The 20 has a lot of overlap with the Freedom Caucus. A lot of those members are both in the 20 and in the Freedom Caucus. But the 20 also includes some of the most extreme voices in the House, the mos"}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 8, "text": "Could I stop for a second? What's the point of that? Like, if they know that it can't possibly pass, what's the point?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the biggest bill that we saw become laden with these culture war social issues was the defense bill, where the House passed a deeply partisan defense bill that would limit abortion access and tr"}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 9, "text": "So in the defense spending bill, you have amendments to end a policy guaranteeing access to abortion to service members, allowing them to travel to a state where abortion is legal if they're based in a state where it's not, to eliminate the Pentagon's Office of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion and to prevent the military health plan from covering gender transition surgeries. It kind of sounds like a Ron DeSantis agenda, especially with the diversity-equity-inclusion, since that's such a big thing for him, isn't it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a way of flexing their muscles and saying, we want these socially conservative policies governmentwide, and we are willing to shut down the government and have complete dysfunction if you - if we"}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 10, "text": "So also in this defense spending bill is defunding the war in Ukraine. Can you explain why the right wing of the House wants to defund the war?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it's pretty hard right. And it's a questionable strategy when a lot of these Republicans who ended up supporting it ran in elections where abortion was on the ballot, and it hurt them significant"}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 11, "text": "Bob Good, who is a House member, a Republican from Virginia, said we should not fear a shutdown. Most of what we do up here is bad anyway. Is that representative of what a lot of right-wing Republicans think?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I mean, this is one place where the amendments that wanted to strip programs to train and equip Ukrainian soldiers failed dramatically. So this is still an issue where a lot of Republicans agree "}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 12, "text": "So what is McCarthy trying to do to prevent a shutdown?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is. We've seen them talk about how silly Congress is at many points. That is indicative of what a lot of the hard-right members think. They've been sent here to disrupt Washington, and they think g"}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 13, "text": "All right. On that note, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Annie Karni, a congressional correspondent for The New York Times. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One thing we don't know is how much these hard-right members will flex their muscles and try to stop the government from running this fall. One thing McCarthy could do is a stopgap funding bill that w"}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Annie Karni, a congressional correspondent for The New York Times. We're talking about the far-right wing of the House of Representatives and how they're preventing Speaker Kevin McCarthy from controlling his conference and how the far right might force a government shutdown starting in October. So now we have two far-right groups within the House. There's the Freedom Caucus, which was founded in 2015, and the much newer group, the 20. They're both disruptive groups. The 20 is further to the right and perhaps more about disruption than even the Freedom Caucus. What are some of the techniques they've used in addition to what we've been talking about, putting amendments that are very unlikely to pass in spending bills? What are some of their disruptive tactics?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One thing we don't know is how much these hard-right members will flex their muscles and try to stop the government from running this fall. One thing McCarthy could do is a stopgap funding bill that w"}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 15, "text": "Remind us how they blocked the House floor.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Probably their most disruptive moment was in June when they staged a blockade of the House floor to express their anger over the debt limit deal that McCarthy forged with President Biden. And they did"}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 16, "text": "And the far right sees this as a power-sharing agreement with McCarthy because they made a deal with McCarthy - we'll vote for you if, and if included kind of power sharing, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So this is a little procedural, but it was quite interesting. Before a bill comes to the floor for a vote, the House has to pass a rule that allows the bill to come to the floor. And typically, how Co"}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 17, "text": "Well, let's take another break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Annie Karni, a congressional correspondent for The New York Times. We'll talk more after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. They voted for him saying we'll vote for you if you give us all of these concessions that give us great power, like three seats on the Rules Committee, which is the committee that decides what le"}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Annie Karni, a congressional correspondent for The New York Times. We're talking about the far-right wing of the House of Representatives and how they're preventing Speaker Kevin McCarthy from controlling his conference. We're also talking about how the hard right may force the government to shut down in October. You know, one thing I often wonder is one of the concessions that McCarthy made to get elected House speaker is that only one member of the House is needed to remove him as speaker. So I wonder, like, since some of them hate him so much, why hasn't anyone stepped forward to remove him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. They voted for him saying we'll vote for you if you give us all of these concessions that give us great power, like three seats on the Rules Committee, which is the committee that decides what le"}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 19, "text": "But having a weak speaker, in a way, gives the hard right power since they can control him or manipulate him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's the million-dollar question that's always hanging over him. And could it happen in the fall? When will it happen? I think part of why it hasn't happened yet is the same reason that he emerged v"}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 20, "text": "So there are some people who have - from the hard right - who have aligned with Speaker McCarthy. One of them is Jim Jordan, who is now head of the House Judiciary Committee. So was that part of a deal that Jordan made with McCarthy in order to get Jordan's vote for McCarthy as speaker?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It does. In some ways, this is great for them. I mean, he's giving them concessions on, first of all, in becoming speaker and then on each of these bills, as we discussed on the defense bill. He caves"}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 21, "text": "How did she become aligned with McCarthy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. That was a deal made long ago. McCarthy's strategy for rising to become speaker was to ameliorate some of these threats from the right, and Jim Jordan was one of them. He promised him one "}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 22, "text": "Yeah. And as you pointed out, she believes in conspiracy theories. She's the one who said that Jewish space lasers were responsible for wildfires; 9/11 was an inside job. She believes some of the QAnon conspiracy theories. She said that Parkland and Sandy Hook shootings were staged. So she's really out there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She made a very strategic decision during the speaker's race that she was going to be with him. And judging by the Marjorie Taylor Greene that we witnessed in the last Congress, that was sort of a sho"}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 23, "text": "But the more official reason was that she got into a fight with Lauren Boebert, and Greene called Boebert a little b****.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She's really out there. And she's sort of apologized for some of those previous statements and says she doesn't believe some of that stuff anymore. But what's interesting is that none of that was the "}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 24, "text": "Pretext?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, but that was kind of the..."}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 25, "text": "So what do they each stand for, Greene and Boebert? Is there a difference between what they stand for in terms of, you know, policy or tactics?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...The pretext, the actual event that happened to force a vote. But what has really been happening for the past few months is just complete anger at her for standing with McCarthy during the speaker's"}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 26, "text": "Now, does that describe you, that she's having actual interviews with you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, gosh. I don't think that policy is what's driving Lauren Boebert or Marjorie Taylor Greene. I think tactics is a better question. These are members who want attention. Lauren Boebert is now belove"}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 27, "text": "I guess. But calling Boebert the B-word on the House floor isn't an example of Marjorie Taylor Greene elevating herself.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I just remember a moment during the speaker's race where I tried to grab her as she was leaving the chamber, and she was perfectly polite. She said, I'm just running to the bathroom. Can you w"}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 28, "text": "Well, let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Annie Karni, a congressional correspondent for The New York Times. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I mean, I also think that the fact that they're arguing about, you stole my impeachment article, is, you know, high school or just complete silliness. And I think that there's just a longtime lack"}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Annie Karni, a congressional correspondent for The New York Times. We're talking about the far-right wing of the House and how they're preventing Speaker McCarthy from controlling his conference and how the far right may force the government to shut down shortly after Congress resumes. They resume in mid-September. The shutdown might happen October 1.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I mean, I also think that the fact that they're arguing about, you stole my impeachment article, is, you know, high school or just complete silliness. And I think that there's just a longtime lack"}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 30, "text": "Let's talk about impeachment. Republicans wanted to impeach Biden before he even entered the White House. And, you know, we've talked about how Marjorie Taylor Greene and Lauren Boebert were fighting about who introduced the impeachment bill in Congress. Where does Congress stand now in terms of trying to impeach President Biden?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's likely to happen October 1. And they left Washington last week with 11 appropriations bills to pass when they come back and no real confidence that this is doable."}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 31, "text": "So if Republicans in the House decide to move forward with trying to impeach President Biden, what would the charges likely be, do you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's complicated. The article of impeachment that Lauren Boebert introduced was immigration-related. I don't even want to get into the details because it was very clear to most Republicans that the ba"}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 32, "text": "What does expunge mean in this context? Saying...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The area they want to look at is the Biden family finances that they think need to be investigated. And they think that there is corruption at the bottom of this that implicates the president and that"}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 33, "text": "...That it was illegitimate or saying, like, oh, it never really happened or it doesn't count?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It means..."}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 34, "text": "All right. Let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Annie Karni, a congressional correspondent for The New York Times. We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...That it was illegitimate and that it - that he wasn't really - like, taking it away, pretending - yeah, wiping his record clean that it was illegitimate and politically motivated. These efforts are"}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 35, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with Annie Karni, a congressional correspondent for The New York Times. We're talking about the far-right wing of the House and how they're preventing Speaker McCarthy from controlling his conference and how the hard right may force the government to shut down come October. So another really big fight in the House was when Republicans voted to censure Adam Schiff. This was on June 21. And it was for, quote, \"misleading the American public and for conduct unbecoming a member of the House of Representatives\" and for his, quote, \"falsehoods, misrepresentations and abuse of sensitive information.\" What happened while Speaker McCarthy was trying to read the censure?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...That it was illegitimate and that it - that he wasn't really - like, taking it away, pretending - yeah, wiping his record clean that it was illegitimate and politically motivated. These efforts are"}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 36, "text": "So do all of these charges stem from his actions during the impeachment - the first impeachment of Donald Trump?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was sort of a dramatic moment on the floor. Democrats started to chant, shame, shame, shame. Just two members of the House have been censured in four decades before the Schiff censure. And, you kno"}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 37, "text": "Which was led by Adam Schiff?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And, in fact, the first..."}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 38, "text": "So this larger fight over the censure of Adam Schiff between Democrats and Republicans ends up in a kind of personal fight between Eric Swalwell, a Democrat from California who was an impeachment manager for the second impeachment of President Trump - between Swalwell and Speaker McCarthy. So this starts on the House floor. Describe what you know about this fight.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And the first attempt at censuring him, which failed, include a $16 million fine, which Luna said she came up with because it was half the cost of that impeachment proceeding. It eventually did p"}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 39, "text": "Well, I think what he was reacting to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This started in this kind of heated moment on the House floor after the Schiff censure, where Democrats were really enraged that this was happening and shouting shame. And Swalwell, who, along with Sc"}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 40, "text": "I think what he was reacting to, what McCarthy was reacting to, was that it was reported that Swalwell called him the P-word.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Doesn't actually happen."}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 41, "text": "And McCarthy said, if you ever call me that again, I will kick your - I'll use the clean word - behind. I will kick your behind.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 42, "text": "Can you imagine the possibility of a fistfight actually erupting in the House? We seem to be just, like, inches away from that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah. I mean, you know, it's - first of all, this was reported by The Daily Beast, but no one involved denied the exchange. But it's interesting to me to - you rarely see Kevin McCarthy show ang"}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 43, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I can. I mean, we saw - we basically saw that during the speaker's fight. At the very end, you know..."}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 44, "text": "And those were two Republicans.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...A member lunged at Matt Gaetz and had to be held back. So, yes, absolutely. We see it all the time."}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 45, "text": "So one more question. Is it especially exciting to - or depressing - to cover Congress at times like this when it might shut down, when there's fights breaking out between Democrats and Republicans and even within the Republican Party itself? I mean, it's your government. At the same time...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And, you know, there's been shouting matches. The other day, coming out of the House, Jamaal Bowman, who's a progressive Democrat from New York, got into a screaming match with Marjorie Taylor G"}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 46, "text": "...There's a lot of action. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's kind of both."}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 47, "text": "You like covering it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's kind of - it's a little bit of both. I mean, it's not boring. There's a million stories. There's never a quiet week. You think it's a quiet week, and something inevitably happens. So that's excit"}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 48, "text": "I just wanted to clarify that. You're not rooting for a government shutdown.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I don't like the dysfunction, but I like covering it."}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 49, "text": "But it's interesting to cover it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 50, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 51, "text": "Annie Karni, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 52, "text": "Annie Karni is a congressional correspondent for The New York Times. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll talk about how an accident that causes a severe injury and disability changes a life in an instant. The chronic pain can last for the rest of your life. So how do you carry on? That's the central question in the new novel, \"Such Kindness.\" My guest will be the author Andre Dubus III. He also wrote \"House Of Sand And Fog,\" which was adapted into a film. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me."}
{"id": "1191550136", "date": "2023-08-02", "guest": "Annie Karni", "title": "Latest Trump indictment could lead to even more disruption in the House", "question_index": 53, "text": "To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram - @nprfreshair. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. FRESH AIR's co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me."}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. An accident that causes a severe injury and disability changes a life in an instant, and the chronic pain can last for the rest of your life. So how do you carry on? That's the central question in the new novel by my guest, Andre Dubus III. The main character, Tom, is a builder who falls off a roof, breaking his pelvis and hips. Those bones are held together by pins. And long after the fall, the fires around the pins are still raging. He's on disability, living in Section 8 subsidized housing, thinking he doesn't belong here. He doesn't belong with these people. The psychic pain, spiritual void and the anger and bitterness are constants. Dubus had personal experiences he could draw from for the novel. His father, the writer Andre Dubus, had his life changed while trying to do a good deed helping two people on the side of the road who had collided with an overturned motorcycle in the passing lane. While helping them, he was hit by a car going over 55 miles an hour. One leg was amputated and the other was virtually paralyzed. He never walked again. Andre Dubus III grew up poor because his parents separated long before his father's accident, leaving his mother sometimes unable to pay the rent or buy enough food to feed herself and four children, in spite of the child support payments. Andre Dubus III learned what it was like to have money after his novel \"House Of Sand And Fog\" became an Oprah Book Club selection, a bestseller and was adapted into a film. He has a forthcoming collection of essays called \"Ghost Dogs: On Killers And Kin.\" His new novel is called \"Such Kindness.\" Andre Dubus, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Let's start with a very short reading from early in your book on Page 15.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 1, "text": "I was wondering if you were thinking of your father and his accident when you decided to write a book about a horrible injury that leads to disability and chronic pain?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. (Reading) I have spent many hours contemplating pain. Its constant presence seems like such a dark joke, really, like the school bully who sits on your chest and spits in your face years after bot"}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 2, "text": "So your injuries were caused by being a carpenter 'cause you're a carpenter...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it's interesting. I wasn't consciously thinking about my dad, Terry, but, of course, these things are in my psyche deeply. I've had a lot of back injuries, like a lot of people over the years. I'v"}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 3, "text": "...And you draw on that for the book, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 4, "text": "There are so many descriptions of the pain in the book. Because the pain is constant, you're constantly, as a reader, reminded of that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's - it first started at 19, weight training. You know, I write about all that in my memoir, \"Townie,\" about how I transformed myself from a small, sedentary, scared, bullied kid into somebody"}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 5, "text": "No, but you had to come up with a lot of different descriptions. So what was the process like of coming up with different descriptions to describe the same pain in his hips?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 6, "text": "It's just endless.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I love this line by the writer Paul Engle. He said that writing is rewriting what you've already rewritten. I..."}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 7, "text": "You know, your memoir, \"Townie,\" starts with you jogging with your father before his accident.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Isn't that great? It's frigging endless. I began with a horrible metaphor of rats gnashing at his pelvis and his hip bones. And, I mean, I think the first few drafts, even the ones I was working on wi"}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 8, "text": "And at this point in your story in the memoir, your parents are separated. You're living with your mother, but your father visits usually once a week. And on this...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 9, "text": "...Visit, you're going jogging with him, but you don't have good sneakers, so you borrow your older sister's sneakers. But they're really too small. And you run two 5 1/2-mile laps with your father. Your feet are, like, swollen and bleeding and they really hurt. And so I thought it was interesting that that memoir starts with pain, too - with physical pain.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 10, "text": "Tom, your character, turns to the Hermann Hesse novel \"Siddhartha,\" which is, like, a Buddhist-oriented novel. Your father, after his injury and his chronic pain - he kept reading the New Testament. And you said you don't believe in God, but you do believe in the divine. So what's the distinction there, and has your belief in the divine, however you define it, helped you get through difficult periods?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, that - and the memoir begins with that because that's when I really began - you know, I had run only once in my life. I was 8 years old when my dad lived with us and I "}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 11, "text": "Has it been hard for you to find language, everyday language to describe your belief in the divine, but not in God? Like Tom, your main character, for instance, he says he's talking to a God he doesn't believe in. He uses the word blessing, and he says, another holy word that I don't believe in but do. So he's struggling with the language.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Boy, that's a great question. You know, I teach my dad's short stories at University of Massachusetts Lowell, where I've been for years. And I just so love teaching his work. But one of the things tha"}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 12, "text": "Let's take a short break here and then we'll talk some more. If you're joining us, my guest is Andre Dubus III, author of the new novel \"Such Kindness.\" And you may know him for his novel \"House Of Sand And Fog,\" which was adapted into a film. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Yeah, I am too. It's hard to find the language. I don't know. It's going to sound romanticized, but I - you've got to come down to love. It's love, you know? And I am not - I do not look at the worl"}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Andre Dubus. His new novel is called \"Such Kindness.\" Let's get to you and being bullied and then becoming a fighter.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Yeah, I am too. It's hard to find the language. I don't know. It's going to sound romanticized, but I - you've got to come down to love. It's love, you know? And I am not - I do not look at the worl"}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 14, "text": "When you were growing up poor after your father left when you were 10, you went to so many different schools, in part because you had to move all the time because of the rent.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 15, "text": "And so you'd go to a new school and you'd be bullied. And you didn't want to fight, so you hid. You spent a lot of time just kind of like hiding and trying to become invisible. But you were still beaten up. Your brother was beaten up, your younger brother. And then you started lifting weights, working out and eventually boxing. What was the turning point for you where you decided, I'm not going to hide anymore, I'm going to transform myself physically?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 16, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was a pretty traumatic turning point. I was 14. My brother was 13. You know, if you know violence well - and sadly, too many do - you tend to have three reactions. You either fight like hell,"}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 17, "text": "Well, let's get to the creative writing in a minute. But you write in your memoir, with physical violence, there was always the wreckage after - not just the bruises and lacerations, the chipped teeth or fractured bones. There was a hangover of the spirit. Would you describe the hangover of the spirit after you beat somebody up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Without losing their - oh, yeah, they loved me. They couldn't without losing their badges. They'd go, oh, yeah. And, you know, women started to notice me. But that wasn't the point, as much as I en"}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 18, "text": "At some point, you realized you were beating people up for yourself.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. You know, three guys pulled over my best friend and his wife and pulled a knife on my best friend and threatened to, you know, assault their - you know, his fianc\u00e9e at the time. And we found"}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 19, "text": "Yes, you were trying to protect people, but you were doing it for yourself.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep."}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 20, "text": "What do you mean by that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep. Yep."}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 21, "text": "Let's take another break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is writer Andre Dubus. His new novel is called \"Such Kindness.\" We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But, Terry, while we're talking about Harold Bloom, I look and - you know, I've done carpentry all my life. And my - you know, when you paint a ceiling over your head with a roller, you look, and you'"}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Andre Dubus III, author of the new novel \"Such Kindness.\" His earlier books include the bestselling novel \"House Of Sand And Fog\" and bestselling memoir \"Townie.\" His father, Andre Dubus, was also a writer. Andre Dubus III grew up poor and was bullied. He eventually decided to stop hiding from bullies, built up his body and became a fighter. When we left off, he was describing how he started looking for fights, fights he could justify by saying it was to defend someone against a bully or an attacker. One of his last fights was in his late 20s when he saw a woman being assaulted and he put one of the guys in the hospital. He was treated like a hero but realized he'd gone too far and that demonstrating his skill as a great defender was a form of narcissism. I want to ask you about two incidents involving your older sister, Suzanne, and your reaction to these incidents. She was gang raped in a car. And then another experience was her husband beat her up badly. It - what? - perforated one of her eardrums. And you were talking to your father about it. And you were talking about what you wanted to do to her husband. And he was saying, we should get a pro to do something. So he was thinking of calling someone...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But, Terry, while we're talking about Harold Bloom, I look and - you know, I've done carpentry all my life. And my - you know, when you paint a ceiling over your head with a roller, you look, and you'"}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 23, "text": "...To break her husband's knees.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 24, "text": "Oh, were you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it's worse than that. No, we were looking for a hit man."}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 25, "text": "But I think you say knees in the memoir", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 26, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 27, "text": "Do what - beat him up or kill him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Well, it gets to that. We actually called somebody, you know, a bar guy in San Francisco who knew some street people, found out it was $1,500 to have the man killed, 500 to have every bone in his "}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 28, "text": "Your sister is now the CEO of a domestic violence crisis center...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was open to both possibilities. Let's just start by hurting him. And if he dies, well, then he dies. And I felt no remorse about that. I felt total conviction. That's my sister. You need to die. And"}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 29, "text": "...And the subject of a book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 30, "text": "And so when she was on our show after that book was published, she was talking about how her husband, the husband you were referring to, kept insisting, you know, after she left him, I need to see you. I need to see you and talk with you. And she said on our show, but my brothers were around me then. I wasn't isolated anymore. It was easy for me to say to him, I'll see you, but you have to come to my father's house. And I'll talk to you. And my dad and my brothers are going to be in the other room. And it was during that time where I could say, no, this isn't going to happen. This isn't going to go anywhere. He tried one more time later, but I was done. So it was your presence and your father's presence that helped her not only leave her husband, but say, we're done. I've got muscle.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 31, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, she had muscles. She had someone behind her. You know, and now, though, you know, in my seventh decade of life, I think how patriarchal it can be to hover over a woman as the protector and sort "}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 32, "text": "You're lucky, though, because had they discovered who raped her, you might have tried to kill them. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, one of the incidents that continued to propel me into deeper street violence as a kid was when she was raped at knifepoint by two men in Boston, who were never caught. And - but the feeling "}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 33, "text": "And you're lucky because you didn't try to kill her husband, your sister's husband. I mean, did you ever think about what your life would be like if you did break all his bones or murder him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 34, "text": "I just want to repeat something that you just said - that you think of writing as going deeper into the human spirit through words.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah. You know, I was so fortunate to teach a creative writing class with Tobias Wolff, who's an old friend, at San Quentin a few years ago to 34 lifers, 34 men who will never get out, who've ma"}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 35, "text": "That's a pretty great description.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 36, "text": "Let's take a short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Andre Dubus. His new novel is called \"Such Kindness.\" We're also talking about his 2011 memoir, which is called \"Townie.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you. You know, I am so grateful that I found writing, you know? It was rocky for the first 10 or 20 years. Being the great writer's son with the same name, it was a pain in the a**. But I "}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 37, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Andre Dubus. His new novel is called \"Such Kindness.\" He's also the author of an earlier memoir called \"Townie.\" When you became a writer, did it bring you closer to your father when you started being a writer and wanted to think of yourself as a writer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you. You know, I am so grateful that I found writing, you know? It was rocky for the first 10 or 20 years. Being the great writer's son with the same name, it was a pain in the a**. But I "}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 38, "text": "It's really hard, I would imagine, to write about family if the family member is alive or to write about a close friend if the close friend is alive and to do it through memoir or essay and not fiction...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "when I was about in my 30s. I had read a line of dialogue, and, you know, the line was, I didn't do nothing, comma, I don't know nothing. And I wrote - I called the old man and said, can you put a com"}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 39, "text": "...Because there's no deniability in memoir or essay. You can't say, it's not you. It's just this character. I just made it up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep."}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 40, "text": "But your father told you, don't be like me and wait until your father is dead to write about him. You can write about your parents while they're alive. Did you take that advice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 41, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I waited till he died but not purposely. I did write a story - one of the first short stories I ever wrote, probably the most autobiographically based piece of fiction I ever wrote. It's called \"W"}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 42, "text": "Do you feel lucky at all that you never got to have it, or do you feel deprived?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he said, and, by the way, Jeb was running - was throwing rocks and calling me a bum. You didn't put that in; did you? I said, oh, man, I forgot about that. But I put it in \"Townie.\" I don't know i"}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 43, "text": "Do you ever feel guilty in spite of that, in spite of the fact that your father has been dead for years? - because I don't know. With myself, when I say something negative about my parents...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I said, yeah, but I don't want to - I mean, come on. It's one thing to shine a light on my own privacy. I mean, how do I write about them? She said, but isn't that part of your story, too? And so that"}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 44, "text": "...Who I deeply loved, I feel this, like, tinge of, like, guilt for saying it. And I feel like somehow they know I've said it. And I don't really literally believe that. I don't, like, believe in an afterlife, but I somehow imagine them hearing it and being really upset.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 45, "text": "What made you cry?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I wake up at 3 in the morning - not so much now 'cause \"Townie\" came out in 2011. But especially in the first five or six years, I would get all these letters and - you know, from all sorts of peo"}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 46, "text": "Yeah. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, when I - when the younger me gets to the top of the hill, the first lap and with my feet in agony 'cause I'm wearing my sister's too-small shoes. And, of course, I don't want to tell my father I d"}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 47, "text": "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's take a short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Andre Dubus. His new novel is called \"Such Kindness.\" We're also talking about his 2011 memoir, which is called \"Townie.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 48, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Andre Dubus. His new novel is called \"Such Kindness.\" You've written about and spoken about how joyful it was to become a father and the ways in which that's, like, opened your heart. Did you know you wanted to be a father?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 49, "text": "Was it hard sending them out into the world or them just, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. And this is where I think men tend to be so clueless. And maybe it's not a fair generalization. No. I had no - I never - not once did I think of being a father. I didn't even want to get married. "}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 50, "text": "You didn't, like, send them out. They probably decided to go.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Agonizing."}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 51, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, they had to flee. Look. I am not a helicopter parent. I am a stealth helicopter parent."}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 52, "text": "Well, on the note of gratitude, let's end it there. It's such a pleasure to talk with you, Andre. I really appreciate you coming back to the show. Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have a stealth helicopter. When my daughter Ariadne, who's, by the way, getting a Ph.D. in feminist philosophy, and she's almost 28 years old - when she first walked home for the first time as a 13-"}
{"id": "1191844046", "date": "2023-08-03", "guest": "Andre Dubus Iii", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 53, "text": "Andre Dubus' new novel is called \"Such Kindness.\" If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, like this week's interview with actor Richard E. Grant or comic Leon Morgan, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. I'd also recommend subscribing to our free newsletter, a treat that will arrive in your inbox every Saturday morning. You can subscribe at whyy.org/freshair. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director is Audrey Bentham, with engineering today from Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Ann Marie Baldonado, Therese Madden, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 0, "text": "Let's start at the very beginning of the birth of Pee-wee Herman. How did you first create the character? I think this was back in the Groundlings era when you were working with that improv comedy group.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Other regulars on \"Pee-wee's Playhouse\" included S. Epatha Merkerson, later of TV's \"Law And Order,\" and Laurence Fishburne, Orpheus in the \"Matrix\" movies. We'll hear from them later in the show. But"}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 1, "text": "So did you make up intentionally bad jokes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It was, I believe, 1977. I was 3, and we were doing a night where we were kind of doing an extended scene - what we called an extended scene. And we were trying to do something where it was like"}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 2, "text": "So how did this really bad comic Pee-wee Herman develop into the kids' show host Pee-wee Herman?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I don't think I even had jokes at the time. I think, like, basically, I had a paper bag full of toys. And I would bring them out and just go like, ah, hmm (ph), ah. And, you know, it was rea"}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I'm not sure there was much development involved. I mean, I - that character got such a great response on the first night that it ever appeared that I very quickly realized, like, this is so"}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 4, "text": "Well, let's talk about the creation of the Saturday morning version of \"Pee-wee's Playhouse.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Tugging on your pant leg, going like, you know, can you help me out, without ever having, you know, anything going. So before I even went home, I landed in Los Angeles and called my parents and bor"}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 5, "text": "Let's start with your voice, since you're speaking to us on the radio. Obviously, you didn't use your regular voice for the character of Pee-wee. How did you arrive at that kind of high and laughy voice that you created?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 6, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I had been doing - years before the creation of Pee-wee Herman, I was - I worked at a theater that was the state theater of Florida called the Asolo Theater, which was in my hometown, Saraso"}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 7, "text": "From doing theater, you developed the voice for Pee-wee.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I love that story."}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, it sounds like it must have been pretty cartoony by the time it was done.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You sound incredulous."}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 9, "text": "How did that happen? Did you not like the play?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was. It was pretty cartoony."}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 10, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I don't know. No, I loved the play. I thought it was a really great play. I think I just wasn't very professional. I was an idiot."}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 11, "text": "Now, the way you looked as Pee-wee Herman, with your hair slicked back and the face makeup with the rouge and a little bit of lipstick, reminded me almost of, like, a silent film star, like, a really nerdy version of a silent film star. There was something almost, you know, like Valentino with the slicked-back hair. And I always assumed that those guys wore, like, a little lipstick and rouge, too, you know, in the black-and-white movies. Were you thinking about that as well visually?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I really didn't know what - you know, I didn't know you weren't supposed to, like, change it completely into a cartoon. It was unwittingly. I did it unwittingly, Terry."}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 12, "text": "Right, right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I feel like I was back - I was around back then, probably. You know, I was a big fan of a bunch of people, but not really - whatever happened, I think, must have been kind of subliminal with me becaus"}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 13, "text": "Now, your body...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Who was the other person - like, some of the - like, Harold Lloyd, some of the silent people you're talking about, even Pinky Lee, who I had seen as a kid. But, I mean - and Jerry Lewis, who, if yo"}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 14, "text": "As Pee-wee Herman, your body was just, like, really kind of tight and a little jerky. And you would always be, like, leaning to one side, or your head would be, you know, angled at one side. You'd often, like, stick your tongue out if you were concentrating in the way that kids often do. Was there a particular, like, kid you modeled yourself on as Pee-wee?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I love that story, too."}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 15, "text": "How deep?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, there really wasn't. I think it was just a blend of lots of people I knew and kind of, like, a lot of who I really was down deep somewhere, I think."}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 16, "text": "Can we talk a little bit about the look of \"Pee-wee's Playhouse\"? It was just such a fantastic set of images - you know, bright colors, all kinds of, like, shapes. And everything was alive in it. You know, like, the chair had arms that could embrace the person sitting in it. And the chair talked, and the window talked. Who - how was the look designed, and were you a part of that?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2004 interview with Paul Reubens, most famous for his character Pee-wee Herman on the large and small screen. Reubens died of cancer Sunday at age 70."}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 17, "text": "And in Raw magazine, that Art Spiegelman edited.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Were you taking some kind of psychedelic drug when you watched that show? No, I'm just kidding, Terry. The look of the show really had a lot to do with an artist named Gary Panter, who designed the or"}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 18, "text": "Now, you've said that one of the things you really loved about the character of Pee-wee Herman was that he showed that it was OK to be different. What did you feel was most different about you when you were growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. And I'd seen a lot of his work, and I loved his work. And I contacted him and asked him if he would do a poster for a show that I hadn't created yet. And he said, well, why don't I do the pos"}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 19, "text": "Tell us a little bit about what your childhood was like - where you grew up and what your school years were like. Were you uncomfortable in school? Did you do well in school? Were you picked on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I guess I felt like a total oddball, like, almost every minute of growing up. So it'd be hard to kind of isolate that, but, I mean, I think that sort of was the whole point of the show or at"}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 20, "text": "Oh, stop.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I grew up in an orphanage, and..."}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 21, "text": "No, you didn't.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, OK."}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I didn't. Oh, no, that was my fantasy character. Sorry. I grew up in upstate New York - Oneonta, N.Y. - until we moved in fourth - when I was in fourth - in between third and fourth grade, we move"}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 23, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So we moved. So I had an incredible upbringing in upstate New York, which included - the New York State Teachers College is in Oneonta. And there was a laboratory school that my sister and I went to. "}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 24, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...In, you know, junior kindergarten, which was very cool, to not have to wait till, like - you know, you didn't have to wait to get to sixth grade to be, like, the big, you know, big cheese. You got "}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 25, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was really, like, a very storybook kind of upbringing. And then we moved to Florida. And moving to Florida was, like, incredible. I thought we moved to Hawaii. I thought we were in the tropics or s"}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 26, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I showed up for the first day of school in fourth grade in Florida with, like, clamdigger pants on and these nautical shirts and - like a total freak."}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And the kids at school were like, what are you supposed to be? And the thing that was funny about it in hindsight is, like, normally in that kind of situation I think the kids would probably - you wou"}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 28, "text": "Was this your theatrical impulse expressing itself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And instead, like, the next day, I, like, put out another variation of the same outfit and put it on and got back to school and was like, you know, these kids are going to come around or they're not -"}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 29, "text": "So when you moved to Sarasota, which you said was the winter headquarters for Ringling Bros. Circus, did you meet any circus people?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University. Let's continue our tribute to Paul Reubens, the comic actor who died of cancer Sunday at age 70. Later in h"}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 30, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I met lots of circus people. I mean, for one thing, you could see the circus people coming down the street, you know, like the lady with the bright red hair and the wooden shoes, you know? It woul"}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 31, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it turned out that it was the Zacchini family."}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 32, "text": "That's so bizarre.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And they were the family with the giant silver cannon. And they were shooting each other out of the cannon in the backyard."}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 33, "text": "For \"Big Top Pee-wee.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And in fact, years later, when I made my circus movie, we went back to Sarasota and recreated that cannon."}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 34, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 35, "text": "Did you want to be in the circus after seeing this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Don't you love that story?"}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 36, "text": "As?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. You know, I actually thought that if - I've been asked, like, what would have happened if you weren't successful as Pee-wee Herman? What would you have done? And I really thought I was headed f"}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 37, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As the pin-headed guy."}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 38, "text": "Could you really walk a tightrope?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", the unfunny guy. The guy who - I don't know. I knew how to walk a tightrope. I could do trapeze."}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 39, "text": "How'd you learn that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 40, "text": "I don't know.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Why would I make that up, Terry?"}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 41, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I went to circus camp when I was young."}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 42, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "and do this insane, completely insane act. I could, like, look out - I pulled the blindfold off and looked at my parents. And they were both sitting up in the bleachers with their mouths open like..."}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 43, "text": "So were you inhibited or extroverted as a kid?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...What have we created, you know? Like, totally - I think that was probably an early tipoff to them that I wasn't going to be an architect."}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 44, "text": "Or something in between.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One or the other?"}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 45, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, honestly, I think I was probably a little of each. I was sort of schizy when I was, like, a kid. I would be, like, very introverted and, you know, up in my room by myself. And then I would b"}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 46, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Monster actor. So the kids in the neighborhood would come over and try to figure out, like, what was the teeniest part they could give me so they could use the stage. So we would do, like, these mu"}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 47, "text": "What TV shows did you watch as a kid?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, my part would be over. And then all the older kids would, like, do the show."}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 48, "text": "In the peanut gallery?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I was part of an early study on the effects of television on children when I was going to that school in upstate New York I mentioned. I remember being in first or second grade and having so"}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 49, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mm-hmm (ph)."}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 50, "text": "What was it like to be inside rather than watching it on the TV?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Somebody knows the \"Howdy Doody\" show good - impressive."}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 51, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very confusing. I remember my sister was so freaked out, she burst into tears right before the show. And she had to be, like, put in an isolation booth. She didn't make it."}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 52, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She didn't make it on the air, but I did. I was like, after this drive, you got to be kidding. Try to axe me from the show. Forget it."}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 53, "text": "Why was it disappointing - oh, because you couldn't see?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was right up in there. But the thing that was weird about it was, like, you couldn't see Howdy Doody. You couldn't see anything except, like, all the lights and cameras. And I mean, it was just - it"}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 54, "text": "You were on \"The Gong Show\" before the creation of Pee-wee Herman, and it was a kind of vaudeville type of act. I don't think - I used to watch \"The Gong Show,\" but I don't remember your act. Can you tell us something about the act and about where it got you? Did you get anything by virtue of having been on \"The Gong Show\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, just because I didn't realize that there were lights and cameras. And, you know, it's something interesting. Like, from that experience, I now kind of, when I meet little kids, you know, out and"}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 55, "text": "That's funny, I mean, because your image is so not that right now", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did a whole bunch of different acts on \"The Gong Show,\" and I think of those times very fondly. I was proud to be on \"The Gong Show.\" A woman named Charlotte McGinnis, who was - I went to Boston Uni"}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 56, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did a whole bunch of different acts on \"The Gong Show,\" and I think of those times very fondly. I was proud to be on \"The Gong Show.\" A woman named Charlotte McGinnis, who was - I went to Boston Uni"}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 57, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had a different image and a different image of myself at that time. And so she had said, you know, you can join the union after you've been on \"The Gong Show\" more than one time. The second ti"}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 58, "text": "Paul Reubens, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And being part of this duo act and coming up with material for \"The Gong Show\" then led me into the Groundlings, which was an improvisational group which had a real bent towards writing and character "}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 59, "text": "You were a regular on \"Pee-wee's Playhouse.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Cowboy Curtis) Big feet, big boots."}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 60, "text": "You were", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You betcha (ph)."}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 61, "text": "- there you go. You were Cowboy Curtis.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You betcha (ph)."}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 62, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, ma'am."}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 63, "text": "And you had a great animated lasso.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hoo-wee (ph)."}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 64, "text": "Yeah. How'd you get the part with Pee-wee?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Magic lasso."}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 65, "text": "Was it fun to work on the show?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I met Pee-wee in LA back in the early '80s, and he and I became friends. And I was doing \"Gardens Of Stone,\" and I got this call. He said, I need a Black cowboy. So I said, no problem, you know, and I"}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 66, "text": "I really - I love that show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was wonderful. It was great."}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 67, "text": "How did you get the part on \"Law And Order\"?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Laurence Fishburne speaking to Terry Gross in 1993. Another actor who got an early break on \"Pee-wee's Playhouse\" was S. Epatha Merkerson, who later starred as Lieutenant Anita Van Buren on NBC's \"Law"}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 68, "text": "That's great. So Dick Wolf, the creator of \"Law And Order,\" knew you because his kids were big fans of \"Pee-Wee's Playhouse.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 69, "text": "So now, on \"Pee-Wee,\" you played Reba the mail lady.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "His kids, yeah."}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 70, "text": "And, in fact, why don't we hear a short clip of you on \"Pee-Wee's Playhouse\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 71, "text": "Yes. And this is a scene...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, you're kidding."}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 72, "text": "Pee-wee has made a wish. And the wish is that Reba the mail lady will come to the playhouse and mail his letter. And Jambi the genie has granted Pee-wee's wish, and you show up at the playhouse a little baffled, and you're in your nightgown. And here's the scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 73, "text": "That's my guest, S. Epatha Merkerson, in a scene from \"Pee-wee's Playhouse.\" And she was playing Reba the mail lady. You seem to be the only person in - on Pee-wee's show who is from, like, the real world as opposed to the playhouse world, and you're...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Pee-wee Herman) Wait, Reba. Reba, wait. Wait. Wait."}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 74, "text": "What do you mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1191884107", "date": "2023-08-04", "guest": "Post-Broadcast Correction", "title": "Remembering Pee-wee Herman creator Paul Reubens", "question_index": 75, "text": "I love that show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What a fun - that was fun to do. It was a fun show to do."}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Joining me at the piano is a terrific musician and composer - Jason Moran. The first time I interviewed him in 2005, when Moran was 30, I quoted our jazz critic, Kevin Whitehead, who called him one of those rare up-and-comers who makes you optimistic for the future of jazz. Well, Moran is no longer an up-and-comer, and he certainly fulfilled his promise. He's making exciting recordings that draw on the early years of jazz, as well as the avant-garde. He's the Kennedy Center artistic director for jazz, and he curated the permanent exhibition in the new Louis Armstrong Center in Queens, N.Y., which is across the street from Armstrong's preserved home. He also teaches at the New England Conservatory of Music. Moran composes music and has also put his own spin on the works of early jazz pianists and composers, including Fats Waller and James P. Johnson. His new album is a tribute to James Reese Europe, an important but little-remembered figure in jazz history. In the early 1900s, Europe led his own band and founded the Clef Club, which functioned like a union for Black musicians. He was the music director for the then-famous dance duo Vernon and Irene Castle. In World War I, Europe joined the Army and fought with the 369th Regiment of the infantry known as the Harlem Hellfighters. He also led a regiment band that combined military music and syncopation, creating a new sound. Jason Moran's new album is called \"From The Dance Hall To The Battlefield,\" and it features Moran's take on James Reese Europe's compositions and pop music of that time. It's available only on Bandcamp for streaming or download. Jason Moran is joining us from the studios of WNYC in New York. Jason, welcome back to the show. It's so exciting to have you at the piano and to have you back.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 1, "text": "Oh, great. So the first thing I want to do is play some music. So first I want to play James Reese Europe from, like, the 19-teens, I think it was, like, the late 19-teens, playing the \"Castle House Rag.\" And the Castle refers to the dance duo Vernon and Irene Castle. So first I want to play some of the recording, and then we'll hear your interpretation of it at the piano. So tell us what you'd like us to listen for in this recording. And I should say, I really love James Reese Europe's music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it's a pleasure. I'm smiling like crazy."}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 2, "text": "All right. Let's hear it. And I want to say to our listeners, it's a very old recording. It's a really early recording, so it's not going to sound like what you're used to, but, you know, try to get past that and just really listen to the music and not to the recording quality.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, in this recording, there's something so raw about the percussion. It's like they're not necessarily playing drums or cymbals. It's like some other kind of contraption from the early 1900s. A"}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 3, "text": "So that was James Reese Europe's band from, like, the late 19-teens, doing his composition, the \"Castle House Rag.\" And Jason Moran's new album is devoted to the music of James Reese Europe. So, Jason, let's hear your interpretation of it. But first, introduce it for us. Tell us what you wanted to do with it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, in this recording, there's something so raw about the percussion. It's like they're not necessarily playing drums or cymbals. It's like some other kind of contraption from the early 1900s. A"}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 4, "text": ". That was great. I love that. Thank you so much. And that's music with his whole band that's on Jason Moran's new album, \"From The Dance Hall To The Battlefield.\" But he's performing this for us at the piano at the studio of WNYC in New York. So where do you see James Reese Europe fitting into the history of jazz? Because, you know, one of the things I love about his music is that the drumming often has, like, a military sound to it, like, the drum rolls...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, like I said before, repetition is so important. I think just for, you know, for all civilizations, we need phrases to repeat. And James has this simple phrase in the right hand - (imit"}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 5, "text": "...And, you know, kind of marching beat.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 6, "text": "And I actually love marches and I love that kind of drumming. But it's crazy, you know? But it's like that kind of drumming gone a little crazy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 7, "text": "James Reese Europe also founded the Clef Club, which was kind of like a union for Black musicians. Tell us more about it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's kind of what his moniker is as one of these syncopation kings. And I think, I mean, one of the things I had to rethink was, well, what does syncopation mean, and what does s"}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 8, "text": "Did the band play for a lot of, like, white social functions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think he forms this organization because the music of that time is being put everywhere, right? It's on the stages, in these houses, in these theaters. And also I think what James Reese Europe"}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 9, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, you're right. This is what it is. I mean, there's no DJ back then, so you need the bands, right?"}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, one of the songs that you play on \"From The Dancehall To The Battlefield\" is \"Ballin The Jack,\" which is by a Black composer, Perry Bradford. The song is from 1913, a long time ago. Why did you choose this, and what did you want to do with it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So you need the actual people. And James Reese Europe is, like, go-to. He's like a go-to figure in the community. And he's with other composers of the time, too - Bert Williams, H.T. Burleigh, William"}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 11, "text": "I grew up knowing that song. I know all the lyrics to that song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the song is - \"Ballin The Jack\" is like a hit. And if I play it now, people generally come up to me and say, what was that song? I know that song for some reason."}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 12, "text": "Would you play it for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right? It's a dance too, right? And the great thing about a song that's a dance is, you know, it's like the Harlem Shuffle or something. You know, like, it tells you how to do the dance. And, like, I "}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 13, "text": "I really appreciate the way you combine the past and the present...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". (Playing piano)."}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 14, "text": "...The avant garde and the very roots of jazz. How did you start doing that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 15, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Jason Moran. He's joining us at the piano. His new album is a tribute to James Reese Europe called \"From The Dancehall To The Battlefield.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, you know, I grew up in the '80s, and cut, splice, sample, trigger, you know, drop is very much a part of living in that time and listening to hip-hop music. And so knowing that there's, you kn"}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with composer and musician Jason Moran, who's joining us at the piano. His new album features his take on the music of James Reese Europe, an important figure in the very early history of jazz. The album is called \"From The Dancehall To The Battlefield.\" Europe's accomplishments included serving as music director for the then-famous dance duo Vernon and Irene Castle. He fought in World War I with the infantry regiment known as the Harlem Hellfighters and led the regiment band. And Jason Moran, among other things, is the artistic director for jazz at the Kennedy Center. So I want you to play another song here. It could even be just a short excerpt of it. There's something called \"Russian Rag,\" which James Reese Europe recorded, and you play it on your new album. And I should mention for anyone who's looking for the album, it's only available on Bandcamp. And we'll talk later about why that's true. Your runs on this, your descending piano runs on this are, like, so much fun. They're so fantastic.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, you know, I grew up in the '80s, and cut, splice, sample, trigger, you know, drop is very much a part of living in that time and listening to hip-hop music. And so knowing that there's, you kn"}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 17, "text": "And on James Reese Europe's recording of it, I think it's just, like, a clarinet. It's hard to tell because it's so - it's such an early recording. You can't really hear things that clearly. But your piano runs are so much more dramatic than on the recording. But anyways, what do you love about this piece?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 18, "text": "You - would you do it for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, I think you said it. It's drama. I mean, this - when this band - I think this is the first song I heard that made me fall in love with the band - was hearing them play \"Russian Rag.\" The"}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 19, "text": "That was so fantastic.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 20, "text": "How do you practice that? Those runs are so fast and yet so precisely executed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That's - yeah, that's a fun one. And I think hearing them play this, you know, just - I don't know, it kind of raises the blood pressure, and I think good bands do that."}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 21, "text": "Really? Oh, come on. Those are high standards.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 22, "text": "Oh, and I - really? I never - I always think about the fingers and arms, not core. Yeah?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 23, "text": "That is advice Bill Evans never followed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, like, 'cause you need a place - you know, when I watch, like, a person like Cecil Taylor play piano, as much as it is about his arms and his hands, it's really about the waist, the hips, the back "}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 24, "text": "He was always just kind of, like, slumped over the piano.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, like, 'cause you need a place - you know, when I watch, like, a person like Cecil Taylor play piano, as much as it is about his arms and his hands, it's really about the waist, the hips, the back "}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well, we need to take another break here, so let's get to that, and then we'll hear some more of your music. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jason Moran. He's joining us at the piano, and he'll play more music for us after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Spaghetti noodle."}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Jason Moran, who's joining us at the piano from the studio of WNYC in New York. In addition to being a great pianist and composer, he's the artistic director for jazz at the Kennedy Center. He curated the permanent museum in the new Louis Armstrong Center in Queens, N.Y., which is across the street from Armstrong's preserved home. And he teaches at the New England Conservatory of Music. Moran's music draws on early jazz and the avant-garde. He's recorded his takes on the music of Fats Waller and the stride pianist James P Johnson. Hip-Hop and classical music have been sources of inspiration, too. His new album is a tribute to James Reese Europe, who was a lieutenant in World War I fighting in the 369th Infantry Regiment known as the Harlem Hellfighters. He also led the regiment band, which played a hybrid of military and syncopated music, creating a new sound. So I want to ask you another thing about James Reese Europe because it's so relevant to his music. He volunteered for the military during World War I. And he was a lieutenant in the infantry and fought with the Harlem Hellfighters, the 369th Infantry Regiment, led the regiment band. And some of his music refers directly to the war. And do you know why he volunteered? Because this is a period when, let's face it, I mean, Black people had so few rights in America. In the North, it wasn't as bad as the South. But, you know, there was no such thing, really, as equal rights back then.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Spaghetti noodle."}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "bold to think this way. And it's also one of the ways that the music, to a degree, gets weaponized. James and his band would go around to neighborhoods and play the songs, you know, play these W.C. Ha"}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 28, "text": "There's a song that he wrote with a lyric by Noble Sissle, who was part of the songwriting team with Eubie Blake, one of the most famous songwriting teams of that period and of the '20s. And so Noble Sissle wrote the lyric. And this is - it's a song called \"On Patrol In No Man's Land.\" And I've never quite heard a song like this. It's all about being on patrol in no man's land, which is the land between the two warring enemies. And remember, this is trench warfare. And so it's all about fighting in - you know, being on patrol in no man's land and, you know, grenades going off and machine guns firing at you and poison gas attacking you - because poison gas was used in World War I - having to put on your gas mask. And, you know, Noble Sissle is singing this on the James Reese Europe recording. And it's a pretty incredible recording. And I think that he actually wrote this in the infirmary, like, in the hospital. And again, I want to say it's a really early recording, so don't be put off by the sound quality. Try to just listen to the music and the lyric.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, people would follow Kendrick, you know, into the battlefield. And James is that important. But I think he sees and wants to try something else. What I've understood him as is that he never s"}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 29, "text": "So that was the James Reese Europe band with Noble Sissle singing. Sissle also wrote the lyric. I don't know. That's a pretty special recording.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) What's the time, 9? All in line. All right, boys, now take it slow. Are you ready, steady? Very good, Eddy. Over the top, let's go. Quiet - sly it or else you'll start a riot. Keep your prop"}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 30, "text": "Yeah. Now, you play something on your tribute album to James Reese Europe called \"All Of No Man's Land Is Ours.\" The song we heard was called \"On Patrol In No Man's Land.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it is."}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 31, "text": "And the one you play is \"All Of No Man's Land Is Ours.\" Now, Noble Sissle, who we just heard sing his own lyric, he also wrote a lyric to this song. The song - the Music was written by James Reese Europe. Would you tell us why you chose to play this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 32, "text": "When you play this on your album, \"From The Dancehall To The Battlefield,\" you don't sing. But I asked you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And I think, for Black soldiers, there was something so clever about Noble Sissle and James Reese Europe and Eubie Blake that they were planning these songs, you know, that allowed for multiple read"}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 33, "text": "I asked you if you would sing the Noble Sissle lyric because it's such an interesting song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And I think, for Black soldiers, there was something so clever about Noble Sissle and James Reese Europe and Eubie Blake that they were planning these songs, you know, that allowed for multiple read"}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 34, "text": "Who's an opera singer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is. And I've had some coaching from my wife."}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 35, "text": "I heard her...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Who's an opera singer..."}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 36, "text": "...In \"Porgy And Bess\"...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And composer."}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 37, "text": "...In Philadelphia.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 38, "text": "I am so proud of myself for asking you to do that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Alicia. (Playing piano). Hello, Central? Hello. Hurry, give me 403. Hello, Mary. Hello, dear. Yeah, this is me. Just landed at the pier and found the telephone. We've been parted for a year"}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 39, "text": "That was lovely. That was really so good. And the fact that you whistled was a bonus.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Alicia. (Playing piano). Hello, Central? Hello. Hurry, give me 403. Hello, Mary. Hello, dear. Yeah, this is me. Just landed at the pier and found the telephone. We've been parted for a year"}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 40, "text": "Well, let's take another break here. Joining us at the piano is Jason Moran. His new album is a tribute to James Reese Europe called \"From The Dance Hall To The Battlefield.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They - you know, I think James Reese Europe and all of them understand that when you present music on stage, it's not simply the sound. It's also the drama, the comedy, the tragedy. And all of those e"}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 41, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with composer and musician Jason Moran, who's joining us at the piano. His new album features his take on the music of James Reese Europe, an important figure in the very early history of jazz. It's called \"From The Dance Hall To The Battlefield.\" It's available only on Bandcamp for streaming or download. Jason Moran is the artistic director for jazz at the Kennedy Center, and he also teaches at the New England Conservatory of Music. So let's talk about you. You started off with classical music when you were, like, about 6 years old or something. You started studying the piano through the Suzuki method, which was a method for teaching young children to play classical music. And then you took classical lessons after that, and then you heard Thelonious Monk playing \"'Round Midnight.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They - you know, I think James Reese Europe and all of them understand that when you present music on stage, it's not simply the sound. It's also the drama, the comedy, the tragedy. And all of those e"}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 42, "text": "And you've said in the past that that inspired you to play jazz. Can you play some of \"'Round Midnight\" for us and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 43, "text": "...Talk us through what you heard in that that changed the course of your life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 44, "text": "You were born in 1975. You grew up with hip-hop. So you were studying classical music, trying to figure out the secrets to Thelonious Monk and also listening to a lot of hip-hop. So how does hip-hop figure into your music as a composer and player?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just nothing sounds like that. And that's the intro - you know? - and then it gets to one of the most incredible melodies. (Playing piano). I mean, my goodness, when I heard it the first time in my pa"}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 45, "text": "Now, I've mentioned on the show today that your new album, your tribute to James Reese Europe, \"From The Dancehall To The Battlefield,\" is available only on Bandcamp for streaming or download. And the streaming is free. And download you have to pay. You started your career on Blue Note Records. This was, like, nearly 20 years ago, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I mean, hip-hop is everything to me. You know, a lot of - some musicians, they say, oh, I wish I could have been there in the 1960s when Ornette Coleman came to New York. And I thought, OK, you kn"}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 46, "text": "Or more than that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 47, "text": "And you know, Blue Note was a major label, and this was before streaming. So people actually - you want to hear music, you had to buy the record. That's no longer the world we live in. So you no longer - you have your own record label. But this new album - you didn't even bother to cut a record. It's just streaming or downloadable.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 48, "text": "And so talk to me a little bit about where you think you are and we are in terms of recorded music and fair pay for musicians...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 49, "text": "...To hear their work. I'm - I love, as a listener, listening for free. However...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 50, "text": "...It's at the stake of the musicians.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "However..."}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 51, "text": "One of your projects now - I guess you just finished it - you did the permanent exhibition at the new Louis Armstrong - it's kind of like a museum, a new museum right across the street from where he used to live, which is preserved. I think it's a historical site now, isn't it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is. And it - you know, and artists spend dollars to make this. You pay for everybody to come record. You pay to be in the studio. You pay to have it recorded and mixed and mastered. And I think the"}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 52, "text": "How did Armstrong influence your playing or composing? And also, how did Earl Hines, his early pianist...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it is."}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 53, "text": "...Influence you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 54, "text": "Wow, thank you for doing that. Let me reintroduce you here. It's time for a break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jason Moran, who's joining us at the piano. His new album is a tribute to James Reese Europe called \"From The Dancehall To The Battlefield.\" We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course. I mean, Armstrong is, like, quintessential to thinking about jazz phrasing, you know, or phrasing. And - whether it's at his trumpet, or it's in how he scats or how he delivers a lyric. And"}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 55, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with composer and musician Jason Moran, who's joining us at the piano. His new album features his take on the music of James Reese Europe and a very important figure in the very early history of jazz. It's called \"From The Dancehall To The Battlefield.\" And Jason Moran is, among other things, the artistic director for jazz at the Kennedy Center. And he teaches at the New England Conservatory of Music. So I would love to end with some music. And what I often do when I have a musician on our show who's performing, I ask them to do a song that we would be surprised they like and to tell us why they actually love that song and play it for us. Would you be willing to do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course. I mean, Armstrong is, like, quintessential to thinking about jazz phrasing, you know, or phrasing. And - whether it's at his trumpet, or it's in how he scats or how he delivers a lyric. And"}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 56, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 57, "text": "That was beautiful.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know? And there's something about the way Louis Armstrong kind of sang that song. He sang two versions of it. And the second version is more kind of, like - he addresses, like, there's a little bi"}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 58, "text": "And you do find the reflection and a certain sadness or sense of loss in it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 59, "text": "Well, I just want to say, I'm in awe of you. I think you're remarkable. I'm so grateful to you for doing our show today.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And for me, when I play it, I feel like, can I just sink inside the song and fold the song over me? And can't I be the polar bear on the iceberg, floating out to sea, you know, not really sure about"}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 60, "text": "Jason Moran's new album, his tribute to James Reese Europe, is called \"From The Dancehall To The Battlefield.\" It's available only on Bandcamp. He joined us from the studios of WNYC. Our thanks to recording engineer Irene Trudel. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll talk about what it's like to slowly go blind. My guest will be Andrew Leland, who's gradually been losing his vision over the past 20 years resulting from the condition retinitis pigmentosa. His new memoir ponders questions like, does vision deserve the privileged place it holds at the top of the hierarchy of the senses? How much perception happens in the eyes and how much takes place in the mind? I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you also for, you know, making this space. I cherish it. Thank you."}
{"id": "1192462331", "date": "2023-08-07", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 61, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Ann Marie Baldonado, Therese Madden, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you also for, you know, making this space. I cherish it. Thank you."}
{"id": "1193189051", "date": "2023-08-11", "guest": "Robert Jay Lifton", "title": "Looking back at the decision to drop atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki", "question_index": 0, "text": "You trace the beginning of the official version of the story of the atom bomb and why we dropped it on Hiroshima to a press release after the bomb was dropped. Can you read an excerpt of that press release for us which you reprint in your book, \"Hiroshima In America\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The myth is - which is the official American narrative of Hiroshima - that we dropped the bomb reluctantly after great reflection only in order to save lives and end the war, and that therefore it was"}
{"id": "1193189051", "date": "2023-08-11", "guest": "Robert Jay Lifton", "title": "Looking back at the decision to drop atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki", "question_index": 1, "text": "What is so significant about the first sentence that you read about Hiroshima being an important military base?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Probably the most important part of the press release is the first sentence, which reads, 16 hours ago, an American airplane dropped one bomb on Hiroshima, an important Japanese army base. And then th"}
{"id": "1193189051", "date": "2023-08-11", "guest": "Robert Jay Lifton", "title": "Looking back at the decision to drop atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki", "question_index": 2, "text": "Do you have information that leads you to believe that we could have had a peace with Japan, that Japan would have surrendered had it not been for the atom bombs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what's significant about that first sentence is that it's a partial truth, and that is - that really matters. Because it's true - there was a Japanese military base in Hiroshima. It was a stagin"}
{"id": "1193189051", "date": "2023-08-11", "guest": "Robert Jay Lifton", "title": "Looking back at the decision to drop atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki", "question_index": 3, "text": "Why do you think a second weapon was used at Nagasaki?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's a lot of evidence of a very good possibility that Japan would have surrendered if an effort at negotiation was initiated by us or responded to by us with the condition that the emperor be main"}
{"id": "1193189051", "date": "2023-08-11", "guest": "Robert Jay Lifton", "title": "Looking back at the decision to drop atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki", "question_index": 4, "text": "President Truman is considered the buck-stops-here president, the president who was very decisive, who felt that the use of the bombs in Japan were justified and necessary to end World War II and save American lives. He, I think, has said that he never lost any sleep over the decision.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, a second weapon was really part of the first order. There was - the Nagasaki bomb or the second city, whichever was decided upon, was in that first order, which was to use available atomic bombs"}
{"id": "1193189051", "date": "2023-08-11", "guest": "Robert Jay Lifton", "title": "Looking back at the decision to drop atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki", "question_index": 5, "text": "Getting back to what you describe as the myth that we've been told and that we've perpetrated about our use of the bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki - so the myth says that we reluctantly, after great reflection, dropped the bombs. You also say that Truman's style, the buck-stops-here style, was a style that really discouraged great reflection.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He - President Truman made many such statements that he never lost any sleep, that he made a clear-cut decision. But he made those statements in a very agitated way. He spent 25 years of the remainder"}
{"id": "1194376133", "date": "2023-08-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 0, "text": "I love that scene so much. And I love the series. Sterlin Harjo, welcome to FRESH AIR, and thank you for \"Reservation Dogs.\" Can you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As William \"Spirit\" Knifeman) Being a warrior - it's not always easy. You and your thuggy-ass friends - what are you doing for your people? It's easy to be bad, but it's hard to be a warrior with dig"}
{"id": "1194376133", "date": "2023-08-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 1, "text": "...Talk a little bit about coming up with a way to both satirize pop culture images of Indians and also just, like, come up with really comedic Indian characters, but also to create a sense of understanding of the importance of traditions? It's a lot to do all at once.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1194376133", "date": "2023-08-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 2, "text": "Oh, thank you so much for that. You've made my day.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So thanks for making my dreams come true today."}
{"id": "1194376133", "date": "2023-08-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 3, "text": "While we're on the subject of permission...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. But yeah, you know, I think that that character in that scene is crucial. And I think, you know, most of the time people are very precious with Native people and, like, you know, you don't - thi"}
{"id": "1194376133", "date": "2023-08-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 4, "text": "...I had asked you before we started, like, what word you like to use. Do you like to use Indian, Native American, Indigenous? And the term that you don't want to use is Native American. But some people say that, you know, as a white person - like, white people shouldn't use the word Indian. So before everybody kind of gets annoyed with me, or I get annoyed...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1194376133", "date": "2023-08-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 5, "text": "...With myself, or you get...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1194376133", "date": "2023-08-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 6, "text": "...Annoyed with me, just help me out here. Like, what works?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, right."}
{"id": "1194376133", "date": "2023-08-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For me - I mean, look. I grew up - my grandma said Indian. So I'm not here to change what my grandma said. And it's what I know. I'm sorry that Christopher Columbus got it wrong, but..."}
{"id": "1194376133", "date": "2023-08-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 8, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...That's what we call ourselves, you know? And, like, we also - I also say Native, and I say Indigenous. Just depending on where I'm at and who I'm talking to, I will - those are all interchangeable "}
{"id": "1194376133", "date": "2023-08-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 9, "text": "All right. So the series is called \"Reservation Dogs,\" an homage to \"Reservoir Dogs,\" Quentin Tarantino's film. What did that film mean to you, and the sensibility that he created in it, which was really something new?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And Native American's just a mouthful. You know, I don't have to sit around and - it's just - you know, it wastes time."}
{"id": "1194376133", "date": "2023-08-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 10, "text": "Absolutely. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it came out when I was in college, and it was right as I discovered that I could be a filmmaker. And, you know, there's something about Tarantino's love for cinema. It's like, that's the same thing"}
{"id": "1194376133", "date": "2023-08-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 11, "text": "When you were growing up, were you growing up, like, on the reservation or near the reservation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But like - and then it was, well, if we're going to have this show where these kids are living through and constantly referencing pop culture, like, we have to tip our hat to the master of that."}
{"id": "1194376133", "date": "2023-08-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 12, "text": "You know, in talking about the influence of pop culture on the characters, on the young characters in your show, and some of the older characters too, the younger characters are so influenced by Black pop culture, by rap, their style of speaking. I found that very interesting. And I'm wondering if there were many Black people where you were growing up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, well, right now there are - there's the - like, right now I live on the Muskogee Reservation, which is part of Tulsa. Through a lot of complicated government policy and interactions with tribal "}
{"id": "1194376133", "date": "2023-08-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 13, "text": "So in this series, you know, dead loved ones return as ghosts. What are your experiences with keeping up a relationship with, you know, family, friends who have died and you want to keep in your life? Were you brought up with the idea that they are still spirits or ghosts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview, recorded last year, with Sterlin Harjo, the co-creator as well as writer and director of the series \"Reservation Dogs.\""}
{"id": "1194376133", "date": "2023-08-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 14, "text": "In the episode where Elora's grandmother is dying - and the grandmother raised Elora after Elora's mother died - Elora asked one of the characters, Cheese, who's 15 years old - a boy named Cheese, who's 15 years old and who's part of this group of friends - she asks him to say a prayer, a blessing, before the meal. And I want to play that scene. So we'll hear Devery Jacobs as Elora and Cheese as played by Lane Factor.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I think that part of growing up in - with Muscogee and Seminole culture is death is such a part of our experience. You know, it's a - it's very community-driven. You know, your cousins are l"}
{"id": "1194376133", "date": "2023-08-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 15, "text": "That's a scene from \"Reservation Dogs.\" I love the way like, you know, \"Star Wars\" - or no, it's not \"Star Wars\"; it's \"Star Trek\" - kind of, like, seamlessly blends into this prayer. It's all like one thing to this 15-year-old. They're all part of his belief system. And I love this character, this character of 15-year-old Cheese. And just as he said, Lord, you know, he, she, they, whatever pronouns they use - when he introduces himself to people, it's always, and I use the pronouns he/him/his.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As characters, speaking Muskogee)."}
{"id": "1194376133", "date": "2023-08-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 16, "text": "And, like, when he says that to people, they mostly have no idea what he's talking about. And I just think that's - you know, it's just really, really funny. Can you talk to me a little bit about that, about having him say that and why you did that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, right."}
{"id": "1194376133", "date": "2023-08-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 17, "text": "And he's so good. And I love his voice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean, I think it's, like - you know, it's an endearing quality. It's, like, I think that there's such a debate over, do we say this or don't we in this country and world? And here you have thi"}
{"id": "1194376133", "date": "2023-08-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 18, "text": "Can you tell us something about your parents?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. He's great. And he - you know, he never had acted. And he had been playing too much video games, and his mom had made him take an acting class. And so he begrudgingly took this acting class and"}
{"id": "1194376133", "date": "2023-08-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 19, "text": "Oh, 'cause one of your main characters learns to be a roofer and then bonds with one of the people teaching him how.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, my parents - my dad roofed houses when I was young."}
{"id": "1194376133", "date": "2023-08-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 20, "text": "Did you learn how to fight?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And I've never seen that on TV, you know, or movies, something that took place on a roof like that. And, like, it was such a part of - my uncles were roofers, my dad. My dad also taught martial"}
{"id": "1194376133", "date": "2023-08-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 21, "text": "Doing what?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. I was a competitive fighter growing up from the age of 4. I think there's video of my first fight. My dad still teaches martial arts to this day in rural Oklahoma. And my mom worked for the tri"}
{"id": "1194376133", "date": "2023-08-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 22, "text": "Is she still alive?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When she worked, she was a secretary for the chief of the Seminole Nation when I was young. You know, now what she does with the Bureau of Indian Affairs is she kind of oversees, like - there was so m"}
{"id": "1194376133", "date": "2023-08-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 23, "text": "She must be so proud of you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She is."}
{"id": "1194376133", "date": "2023-08-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 24, "text": "It's something you didn't have when you were growing up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, man. My parents are so overjoyed about the show. My dad said something to me the other day after the first season came out. And I was like, I can't - you know, it doesn't matter that we didn't get"}
{"id": "1194376133", "date": "2023-08-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 25, "text": "Sterlin Harjo, it's really just been great to talk with you. Thank you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. I didn't have that, you know? And it might have made some sort of difference if I had. I didn't have that. You know, but I did - what I did have was the best storytellers in the world sitting i"}
{"id": "1194376133", "date": "2023-08-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Reservation Dogs' co-creator says the show gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 26, "text": "...For this interview. Thank you for the series. I really love it. And I hope there's a season three.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. It's been great."}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 0, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I guess the simple one-liner is that myself and my mates and I guess a certain contingent of the musicians in London at the beginning of the '70s were fed up with denim and the hippies. And I th"}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 1, "text": "So did you see the kind of gender aspects of your performance - you know, dressing, you know, sometimes wearing an evening gown, sometimes, you know, often wearing lipstick, dyeing your hair, lots of eye makeup - did you see the gender stuff as being a statement about post-modernism or a statement about sexuality?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "quickly before somebody else did."}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 2, "text": "No.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know? But I think that, as I say, there were some - I guess it was, you know, kind of that art school kind of posturing that the Brits usually have. And it was I guess people like myself and Roxy "}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 3, "text": "But it was a good answer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sorry about that."}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 4, "text": "Now, before you became David Bowie, when you were - I mean, when you were working - when you were playing with other bands before forming your own, did you do the denim...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was a pudding, you know. It really was a pudding. It was a pudding of new ideas. And we were terribly excited. And I think we took it on our shoulders that we were creating the 21st century i"}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 5, "text": "...Thing? You know, did you wear T-shirt and jeans on stage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was..."}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 6, "text": "So let me stop you and see if I got this straight. Wearing a T-shirt and jeans seemed phony to you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very, very rarely, actually. No, it wasn't really something that I - because I never believed it. It always felt like you were trying too hard to look like the audience or something. That whole thing "}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 7, "text": "...But wearing mascara and eye makeup seemed right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 8, "text": "Oh, OK. Right. It's artifice...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ah, I didn't say that wearing - a glamorization of the rock artist was any truer than the other thing."}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 9, "text": "But it's an artifice that you believe in. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They're both - it's all artifice."}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 10, "text": "Right. Got it. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 11, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think my main point would be is that the T-shirt and denims thing in my mind was also an artifice."}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 12, "text": "What was your family background?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't feel comfortable in that because I didn't feel like one of the working men. I mean, I could never be a blue collar-y (ph) kind of Springsteen-y type artist because I don't believe I am that, "}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wonder."}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 14, "text": "I see.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my father worked for a children's home called Dr. Barnardo's Homes. They're a charity."}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 15, "text": "What were you listening to when you were a teenager?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was a charity worker, in fact. My mother was a housewife. Both from - well, my father was from a farming family, agricultural family in the north of England. And my mother came from a very working "}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 16, "text": "I've read about something that I'm sure a lot of people have asked you about, which is that when you were 16, you were in a fight that blinded you in one eye and, I think, paralyzed the muscle. I have no idea, though, what happened in the fight. Did you typically get into a lot of fights when you were that age or was this an unusual development?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I love Tibetan horns. I think Tibetan horns are one of the most wonderful sounds in the world, and Tibetan chanting. It's great."}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 17, "text": "Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, firstly, no, I was 13, not 16."}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 18, "text": "And, yeah, how horrifying was it to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it was - my best friend hit me because I'd pulled his girlfriend. So I think probably in his mind he had every right to do that. And the greatest thing..."}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 19, "text": "And you lost the vision in that eye?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". The best thing - part of it, of course, is that we still remained very close friends. And I can't remember - it must be 40 years later."}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 20, "text": "As an artist, how - has it been difficult to see what you want to see, to have full depth perception, for creating and for looking?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Pretty much so, yeah."}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 21, "text": "Do you know what I mean? Is it...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 22, "text": "Getting back to \"Ziggy\" again, which is back in theaters, you know, the story of Ziggy Stardust is the story of, you know, someone who becomes very famous. You know, it's the story of rock 'n' roll fame - becomes very famous, and then fame becomes his downfall. He's kind of killed, in a way, by fame. What did that fable that you created mean to you at the time? Is that the way you saw rock 'n' roll fame?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Still don't know what I was waiting for. Time was running wild - a million dead-end streets. And every time I thought I got it made, it seemed the taste was not so sweet. Then I turned mysel"}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 23, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I can only really look at it the way I look at it now, which is, I think, independently of myself, Ziggy Stardust has his own life. He's his own creation. And you know what? Good luck to him."}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 24, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But frankly, for me, I kind of closed the door on him in 1973."}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 25, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I'm very happy that he's having such success and that people still like him and all that. I heard he got married. Anyway..."}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 26, "text": "Is having an alter ego less important to you than it used to be?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I personally have another life, you know, which doesn't belong to Ziggy Stardust. And I do tend to not really get that involved in what I've done in the past. I do kind of leave that up to other peopl"}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 27, "text": "Your new CD was produced by Tony Visconti, who worked with you from your first album through...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Frankly, in the American eye. But in fact, in Europe, I'm more kind of this bloke what writes lots of stuff. And I kind of - I guess, I - you know, a greater number of the 26 or so albums that I've"}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 28, "text": "Good. Thank you. From - so you worked together from your first album through your 1980 album \"Scary Monsters.\" How did you get hooked up to work again now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And myself. It was a co-production."}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 29, "text": "How is your sense of yourself as a performer different now at the age of 55 than it was when you were in your 20s and getting started and being - when you were in persona and doing the whole, you know, eye makeup and dyed hair and dresses, when you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we started talking about the possibility, and we sort of reunited about five years ago. And we had since that point been talking about the possibility of doing another album together. And I was "}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 30, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was for 18 months, actually..."}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 31, "text": "Can I stop you and say that I'm really surprised to hear that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Which, out of a career of nearly 40 years, is not very long. However, I'll answer your question. I'm not actually a very keen performer. I like putting shows together. I like putting events togethe"}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 32, "text": "Because - yeah, because I always thought of you as somebody who really relished the theater aspect of performance...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Most people are."}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 33, "text": "...And who very successfully made theater a part of music performance.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 34, "text": "Did you grow up thinking of yourself as a singer? Or did you start singing because you wanted to sing, you know, because you wanted to perform?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) They pulled in just behind the bridge. He lays her down, he frowns. Gee, my life's a funny thing. Am I still too young? He kissed her then and there. She took his ring, took his babies. It t"}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 35, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I want - I start - what I wanted to do when I was 9 years old, I wanted to be the baritone sax player in the Little Richard band."}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 36, "text": "Oh, buying it on time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And so I got my father to help me out with the saxophone. And we bought it over, like, a two-year period. We had something in Britain then called the hire-purchase system, or HP. And I bought it on "}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 37, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 38, "text": "Was write music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I started playing around with local rock bands, you know, with the alto. And then, in a nutshell, somebody fell ill one night, the lead singer of one of the bands. And they knew I could sing, so t"}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 39, "text": "Oh, musicals.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Musicals."}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 40, "text": "So when you say you wanted to write musicals, did you want to write, like, Rodgers and Hart kind of musicals or \"Hair?\" I mean, what was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I really wanted to write musicals. That's what I wanted to do more than anything else. And it kind of - because I liked rock music, I kind of moved into that sphere, somehow thinking that somewhere al"}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 41, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, that was my point."}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 42, "text": "Oh, I see. Yeah, right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, my point was I wanted to rewrite how rock music was perceived."}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 43, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I thought that I could do some kind of vehicle involving rock musicals..."}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 44, "text": "So was singing something you started doing to come - so that you could do that kind of theater?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And presenting rock and characters and storyline in a completely different fashion."}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 45, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was - well, it was the conception. I mean, God, I would love to have handed it onto somebody else, and I guess Ziggy would have been the perfect vehicle to have done with. I don't know why, to this"}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 46, "text": "You were briefly in a mime group before...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I had to do it myself."}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 47, "text": "Yeah, before becoming a solo musician.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, the Lindsay Kemp Mime Company."}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 48, "text": "Well, are there things that you learned or became aware of through that mime group that you said, yeah, I really like that. I'm going to work with that in my own performances?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, actually it all kind of ran - I tended to be - I seemed to be kind of involved in so many things all at the same time, which is still how I kind of operate today. I just - I can't keep my "}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 49, "text": "While we're on the subject of mime...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think everything that I learned about stagecraft and carrying through - creating a through point for a theatrical device. I think Lindsay Kemp really introduced me to the work of Jean Genet. And thr"}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 50, "text": "I have to mention that in the \"Ziggy\" movie, you do do those hands walking across the glass wall thing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 51, "text": "The dreaded mime thing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know. That's my proudest moment of the Ziggy Stardust movie."}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 52, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know. It's so utterly appalled over here."}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 53, "text": "Because rock 'n' roll started as a youth music, everybody always wondered, well, will rock 'n' roll continue to live? And what about the artists themselves? What about when they pass 30? What about when they pass 40 or when they pass 50? Is that an issue for you? Do you feel like you have satisfactorily found a way to be a man in his mid-50s playing your music without feeling like what you're playing is - you know what I'm saying - that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it broke our hearts when we came over here and realized that mimes were kind of tantamount to some kind of artistic criminals."}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 54, "text": "...You're playing music...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 55, "text": "...That speaks to who you are and where you are now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I do. Yeah."}
{"id": "1195632580", "date": "2023-08-25", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "David Bowie: The 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 56, "text": "David Bowie, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Having not really written any generational songs - I think maybe two or three of the songs that I've ever written have any bearing on the age of the listener. My stuff tends to be far more concerned w"}
{"id": "1195667940", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: DJ Kool Herc", "question_index": 0, "text": "Kool Herc, welcome to FRESH AIR. Take us back to the beginning of hip-hop. Would you describe what you would do at parties?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Oh, I wouldn't change a thing if I had to live my life all over. Oh, baby."}
{"id": "1195667940", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: DJ Kool Herc", "question_index": 1, "text": "Tell us what it was like at the party - like, how you would play records, how you would find the breaks, how you started finding the breaks.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. The party would start out like this. I ride my bicycle - summertime - all over the Bronx everywhere. And people would - as I go along, they would ask me, hey, Herc. The last party was - it was the"}
{"id": "1195667940", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: DJ Kool Herc", "question_index": 2, "text": "Now, what made you think that it would be great at parties to just play those breaks over and over to make almost, like, a loop of those breaks instead of just playing...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would - well, I thought people didn't see me. I was in a room. I had to stick my head out and see how the party was going. Me and my friends was in the room, and I would - we would stick our head ou"}
{"id": "1195667940", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: DJ Kool Herc", "question_index": 3, "text": "...The whole record straight through?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because..."}
{"id": "1195667940", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: DJ Kool Herc", "question_index": 4, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Kool Herc, and he's basically considered the father of hip-hop, of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's the one misconception of me. I'm a disc jockey. I'm not a DJ. I'm a disc jockey. I play the disc to make you jockey. And one night, I experiment. The breaks came out of an experiment by - I'm w"}
{"id": "1195667940", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: DJ Kool Herc", "question_index": 5, "text": "OK", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not basically. I am."}
{"id": "1195667940", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: DJ Kool Herc", "question_index": 6, "text": ". And Kool...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not basically. I am."}
{"id": "1195667940", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: DJ Kool Herc", "question_index": 7, "text": "What were the records that you thought had the best breaks when you were doing parties in the '70s?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The buck stop right here. Ain't nobody after George Washington. Likewise, same thing for Kool Herc."}
{"id": "1195667940", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: DJ Kool Herc", "question_index": 8, "text": "What are you buying?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "James Brown, \"Give It Up Turn It Loose\" (ph) - a lot of James Brown record - \"Get Involved.\" Bobby Byrd record, \"Hot Pants,\" you know, and Dennis Coffey, you know, \"Scorpio,\" soundtracks from \"Shaft I"}
{"id": "1195667940", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: DJ Kool Herc", "question_index": 9, "text": "Would you describe one of the best parties that you can remember from the early days of hip-hop?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Good stuff that's not played on the radio."}
{"id": "1195667940", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: DJ Kool Herc", "question_index": 10, "text": "You know, back in the '70s, when you were doing parties, you'd charge for admission, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But all of them was good - all of them. But I couldn't - I just could remember sometime I play some particular record that we were - I remember that when we first heard a record called \"Seven Minutes "}
{"id": "1195667940", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: DJ Kool Herc", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Twenty-five cents for fellas - for ladies and 50 cents for fellas. After that, it was 75 for fellas, 50 cents for ladies. We was charging according to what the Juicy Fruit gum was selling for."}
{"id": "1195667940", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: DJ Kool Herc", "question_index": 12, "text": "So how many people would show up to the typical party?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We'd budget ourselves according to - we weren't trying to get rich, you know? Every soda was 50 cents. We got to charge 25 cents for ladies. I mean, the gum was 20 - if the gum was a dime, a nickel, w"}
{"id": "1195667940", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: DJ Kool Herc", "question_index": 13, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'll tell you one thing. We went upstairs. We put it out on the table. We made $500 selling franks and all that. Three to $400 we was clocking."}
{"id": "1195667940", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: DJ Kool Herc", "question_index": 14, "text": "Did you have to pay to rent the room?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it was a little recreation room."}
{"id": "1195667940", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: DJ Kool Herc", "question_index": 15, "text": "Oh, that's not bad.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, twenty-five dollars."}
{"id": "1195667940", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: DJ Kool Herc", "question_index": 16, "text": "So a lot of the apartment buildings had recreation rooms.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. You know, it was just - you know, it was fun. And at the time, people couldn't - people didn't want nobody in their house. Mom's still paying for the furniture. People is not going to be too caref"}
{"id": "1195667940", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: DJ Kool Herc", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, a few of them, at least the new one. We lived in a new building at the time 'cause we had - we was burnt out from where we lived at on the east side. And we stayed in the Grand Concourse Hotel f"}
{"id": "1195667940", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: DJ Kool Herc", "question_index": 18, "text": "You moved to New York in 1967 from Jamaica at the age...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And we lived on the first floor."}
{"id": "1195667940", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: DJ Kool Herc", "question_index": 19, "text": "...Of 13. What was your first reaction to New York? You moved to - what? - to the South Bronx.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1195667940", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: DJ Kool Herc", "question_index": 20, "text": "OK, so...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I move on the West Bronx on Tremont Avenue, 178th Street - 611 East 178th Street."}
{"id": "1195667940", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: DJ Kool Herc", "question_index": 21, "text": "What was your first reaction to it? And how did it compare to the neighborhood you were used to in Jamaica?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And..."}
{"id": "1195667940", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: DJ Kool Herc", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was, at the time, watching TV down there - \"Petticoat Junction\" and \"Dennis The Menace.\" And I just thought the United - all the United States was, like, good old Mr. Wilson \"Dennis The Menace"}
{"id": "1195667940", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: DJ Kool Herc", "question_index": 23, "text": "What surprised you most about what the styles were when you got to New York? You know, were the clothes different? Were...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was in for a rude awakening when I got here. I went from - I was living in Jamaica originally in Jones Town, you know, Trench Town over there on Second Street there. Bob Marley lived on First. I liv"}
{"id": "1195667940", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: DJ Kool Herc", "question_index": 24, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1195667940", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: DJ Kool Herc", "question_index": 25, "text": "So - but they called your cowboy boots roach killers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wasn't - I didn't have the hip clothes that day. I had on the hick clothes. I had on a aviator hat that you pull over your ears and then flip up top. I had the white corduroy jacket on. I looked str"}
{"id": "1195667940", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: DJ Kool Herc", "question_index": 26, "text": "So have you ever done a radio show?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. It has the pointy toe. They called them - any pointed-toe shoes like that, it was called roach killers. OK? You could get in a corner and kill a roach with it."}
{"id": "1195667940", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: DJ Kool Herc", "question_index": 27, "text": "Do you think that's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "1195667940", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: DJ Kool Herc", "question_index": 28, "text": "...Something you'd want to do sometime - you know, like, to DJ on the radio?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've been on a radio show."}
{"id": "1195667940", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: DJ Kool Herc", "question_index": 29, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would love it, but I'd have to have free reign to play what I'll play. And I don't - you don't get that at radio stations, so I don't really bother with that."}
{"id": "1195667940", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: DJ Kool Herc", "question_index": 30, "text": "Well, I want to thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You can't tell me what to play in New York City when this culture was born here."}
{"id": "1195668291", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Grandmaster Flash", "question_index": 0, "text": "Grandmaster Flash, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "While DJ Kool Herc is often credited as the father of hip-hop, Grandmaster Flash was one of the first DJs to make successful rap records and become a pioneer in the genre. In the '70s, he developed mi"}
{"id": "1195668291", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Grandmaster Flash", "question_index": 1, "text": "I'm interested in how you started mixing music, how you started using two turntables or maybe even more than two. Was this something you started doing at home or in clubs as a DJ?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having me."}
{"id": "1195668291", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Grandmaster Flash", "question_index": 2, "text": "Well, you basically started using turntables as if they were instruments. What...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My love for vinyl and for the turntables probably started off when I was a toddler, you know? Growing up at home, I was pretty fortunate to be around a montage of different types of music. Like, my si"}
{"id": "1195668291", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Grandmaster Flash", "question_index": 3, "text": "How did you start using turntables to change the music that you were listening to as opposed to just playing the music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1195668291", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Grandmaster Flash", "question_index": 4, "text": "So you'd let, like, the 10 seconds play on one record and then switch to the other turntable, and meanwhile back up the first turntable to the beginning of that part of the record?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think, coming up, I watched a lot of DJs in my early teens. And watching the DJs of that particular time, they were playing the music, like, my influences. Although they were great, positive i"}
{"id": "1195668291", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Grandmaster Flash", "question_index": 5, "text": "Because you were putting the needle down on exactly the right part of the record with the rhythm that you wanted to hear, could you actually - you know, some people say that you were able to look at the grooves of a vinyl record and know exactly where the rhythm was that you wanted, that you could actually see it in the grooves.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. That was called the clock theory. Yeah."}
{"id": "1195668291", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Grandmaster Flash", "question_index": 6, "text": "Why don't we listen to one of your now-classic recordings? And this is \"The Adventures Of Grandmaster Flash On The Wheels Of Steel.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. This week we're celebrating hip-hop's 50th anniversary by listening back to interviews with some of the most influential rappers and DJs over the past five decades"}
{"id": "1195668291", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Grandmaster Flash", "question_index": 7, "text": "GRANDMASTER FLASH", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. This week we're celebrating hip-hop's 50th anniversary by listening back to interviews with some of the most influential rappers and DJs over the past five decades"}
{"id": "1195668291", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Grandmaster Flash", "question_index": 8, "text": "That's Grandmaster Flash from the early '80s, one of his classic recordings, \"The Adventures Of Grandmaster Flash On The Wheels Of Steel.\" You know what I'd like to do? I'd like to hear that again. But this time, keep your microphone on and have you describe what you're doing as we listen to it. Here we go.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) You say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, one for the treble, two for the time. Come on, girls. Let's rock that. Fab Five Freddie told me everybody's fly. DJs spinning a"}
{"id": "1195668291", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Grandmaster Flash", "question_index": 9, "text": "GRANDMASTER FLASH", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) You say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, you say, one for the treble, two for the time. Come on, girls. Let's rock that. Fab Five Freddie told me everybody's fly. DJs spinning a"}
{"id": "1195668291", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Grandmaster Flash", "question_index": 10, "text": "Now, that release is so nice, the way it synchronizes there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Good Times\" by Chic."}
{"id": "1195668291", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Grandmaster Flash", "question_index": 11, "text": "That's Grandmaster Flash walking us through his recording \"The Adventures Of Grandmaster Flash On The Wheels Of Steel,\" recorded in 1981. You know, the way \"Good Times\" and Queen's \"Another One Bites The Dust,\" the way the rhythm of the two work together is really good. What made you think about putting those two together?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Back to \"Good Times.\""}
{"id": "1195668291", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Grandmaster Flash", "question_index": 12, "text": "Now, was scratching something that you invented? Or was that invented by one of the people who influenced you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, probably - I mean, first, they were two pretty big songs at that particular time, and they're almost in the same key. They're almost identical in the way that the bass was being played. And they"}
{"id": "1195668291", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Grandmaster Flash", "question_index": 13, "text": "Scratching, just for any of our listeners who don't know what scratching is, is when you're moving the record back and forth with the needle on it. And the sound of the needle scratching the record creates part of the rhythm track that you're going for.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, actually, it was called cutting. And the whole thing was, like I said earlier in the interview, is called the quick-mix theory. And we called it cutting because it was actually taking a section "}
{"id": "1195668291", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Grandmaster Flash", "question_index": 14, "text": "Yeah. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, a percussive sort of sound. Right."}
{"id": "1195668291", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Grandmaster Flash", "question_index": 15, "text": "So did you practice that a lot at home so you could just, like, really play these turntables as instruments and do exactly what you wanted on them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "1195668291", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Grandmaster Flash", "question_index": 16, "text": "You must have been pretty obsessive at that time, taking apart turntables and shopping for just the right needle and, you know, designing all these variations on the technology that you were using so it could do what you needed it to do. You must have really been intense.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I sort of - I was looking for something because at this time, what I wanted to come up with, this science, there was no point of reference, no blueprints around. So I was constantly at it, yes. "}
{"id": "1195668291", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Grandmaster Flash", "question_index": 17, "text": "Did you have the money...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I probably was more frustrated than anything because, I mean, so much stuff I had to buy. Like, a lot of it was trial and error, you know, trying to get my hands on the right needle. You know, I"}
{"id": "1195668291", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Grandmaster Flash", "question_index": 18, "text": "Did you have the money to buy a lot of stereo equipment?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...In my frustration."}
{"id": "1195668291", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Grandmaster Flash", "question_index": 19, "text": "What kind of school?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. That's why I had to go into backyards and look for stuff and sort of, like, go through abandoned cars or ask people, you know, that might have been throwing away stuff just - you know, just so tha"}
{"id": "1195668291", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Grandmaster Flash", "question_index": 20, "text": "Let's get back to your new CD, the Grandmaster Flash \"Essential Mix: Classic Edition.\" One of the things on here is Blondie's \"Rapture,\" and that's one of the songs that you sample in \"The Adventures Of Grandmaster Flash On The Wheels Of Steel\" 'cause she mentions you in the song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Samuel Gompers Vocational and Technical High School. And that's where I started to understand, like, what is a resistor, what is a capacitor, what is AC versus DC, what is a transformer, what's a push"}
{"id": "1195668291", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Grandmaster Flash", "question_index": 21, "text": "How did you find out about each other? Do you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1195668291", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Grandmaster Flash", "question_index": 22, "text": "Well, why don't we close with \"Rapture,\" which is on your new mix CD? And, Grandmaster Flash, thanks so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, actually, how it happened was when I was - maybe 10 years before I recorded - making records, there was a gentleman by the name of Fab 5 Freddy who used to come to my parties. But he also had th"}
{"id": "1195668794", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Rapper Melle Mel", "question_index": 0, "text": "So did you ever try \"The Message\" at parties before you went into the recording studio, or would that have been all wrong?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Our group, like, Flash and the Furious Five - we didn't actually want to do \"The Message\" because we was used to doing party raps, you know, and, like, boasting about how good we are and all that. And"}
{"id": "1195668794", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Rapper Melle Mel", "question_index": 1, "text": "Can I ask you how you started rapping?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, we never tried it. And as a matter of fact, I was shocked, because we used to hang out in a club called Disco Fever up in the Bronx, right? And then they took the record, you know, they was testin"}
{"id": "1195668794", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Rapper Melle Mel", "question_index": 2, "text": "What were some of the kinds of rhymes they were using?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we started going to parties. There used to be, like, little, like, maybe a dollar party, $2 parties. And they had a DJ called Kool Herc. Well, it was all DJs, but they rapped. They didn't actual"}
{"id": "1195668794", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Rapper Melle Mel", "question_index": 3, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They wouldn't use rhymes. It was like - if you could imagine, it would be, like, a dark room or a gym. And it's, like, smoky because everybody was smoking everything from cigarettes to whatever, you k"}
{"id": "1195668794", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Rapper Melle Mel", "question_index": 4, "text": "So what were the early rhymes you were doing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was like - more or less like kind of psychedelic kind of thing because everything they said, it was echoes, you know? And this is why they call me the show machine shock, y'all, y'all, y'all, y'all"}
{"id": "1195668794", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Rapper Melle Mel", "question_index": 5, "text": "How did you come up with your name, Melle Mel?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We was doing like, you know, (rapping) I'm Melle Mel, and I rock so well from the top of the world to the depths of hell. This is my first rhyme. I rock with the best with the most finesse. I'm taking"}
{"id": "1195668794", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Rapper Melle Mel", "question_index": 6, "text": "Right", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Flash gave me that name because that was - my name was just Melvin, so I don't think that would be, like, a cool name..."}
{"id": "1195668794", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Rapper Melle Mel", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Flash gave me that name because that was - my name was just Melvin, so I don't think that would be, like, a cool name..."}
{"id": "1195668794", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Rapper Melle Mel", "question_index": 8, "text": "Where were the parties held?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Flash - you know, he started calling me Melle Mel, and it stuck."}
{"id": "1195668794", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Rapper Melle Mel", "question_index": 9, "text": "Was there often trouble at the parties?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In gyms, and not too many halls. We did, basically, the first halls. But it was, like, in gyms and, like, little social club-type things. I think Herc - the Hevalo, that was, I guess, was a club. I ne"}
{"id": "1195668794", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Rapper Melle Mel", "question_index": 10, "text": "So would you go to the bathroom? Did you know enough people that it was safe for you to go", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, but, like, the trouble at the parties was like - it was set up like, it was nothing going on in the party itself, right? But all the guys that, like, did stick-ups and stuff like that, they'd be"}
{"id": "1195668794", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Rapper Melle Mel", "question_index": 11, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, but, like, the trouble at the parties was like - it was set up like, it was nothing going on in the party itself, right? But all the guys that, like, did stick-ups and stuff like that, they'd be"}
{"id": "1195668794", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Rapper Melle Mel", "question_index": 12, "text": "Another great record that you made was \"White Lines,\" which is a kind of anti-cocaine record.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1992 interview with rapper Melle Mel."}
{"id": "1195668794", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Rapper Melle Mel", "question_index": 13, "text": "You know, \"White Lines (Don't Do It).\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1195668794", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Rapper Melle Mel", "question_index": 14, "text": "So here you were actually doing drugs while you were making the rap.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1195668794", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Rapper Melle Mel", "question_index": 15, "text": "How did you come up with the idea of using the higher, higher?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) Ticket to ride, white line highway. Tell all your friends they can go my way. Pay your toll. Sell your soul. Pound for pound cost more than gold. The longer you stay, the more you pay. My wh"}
{"id": "1195668794", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Rapper Melle Mel", "question_index": 16, "text": "I got one last question for you. On your, like, official documents, credit cards, if you have them, or driver's license, do you use the name Melle Mel, or do you use your birth name?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was just something that came naturally with the song, with the twist and shout thing. It just came naturally. That was like, you know, me piecing it together in my mind after the verse. And it's,"}
{"id": "1195668794", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Rapper Melle Mel", "question_index": 17, "text": "So how do you feel about that name now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, my birth name - Melvin Glover. That's my name."}
{"id": "1195668794", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Rapper Melle Mel", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a nice name. You know, I don't really think here nor there about it. You know, some people hear the name Glover, they say, you related to Danny Glover?"}
{"id": "1195668794", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Rapper Melle Mel", "question_index": 19, "text": "Oh, really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm like, my pops was named Danny Glover."}
{"id": "1195668794", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Rapper Melle Mel", "question_index": 20, "text": "Oh. That's interesting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1195668794", "date": "2023-08-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Rapper Melle Mel", "question_index": 21, "text": "All right. Well, listen. Thanks so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. This week, in celebration of hip-hop's 50th anniversary, we're featuring interviews from our archive with some of the groundbreaking performers. Our first interview today is with Darryl McDaniels, co-founder of Run-D.M.C., one of the early hip-hop groups to break into the mainstream. They had their first hit back in 1983, \"It's Like That.\" In 1984, they became the first rappers to earn a gold album. The next year, they were the first to earn a platinum. They were the first rap group to have their videos played on MTV and the first to appear on the cover of Rolling Stone. Run-D.M.C. was inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in 2009, making them the second hip-hop group to make it, after Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five. The group stopped recording albums after its member, DJ Jam Master Jay was shot and killed in a recording studio in Queens, N.Y., in 2002. Darryl McDaniels is the D.M.C. in Run-D.M.C. Run is Reverend Joseph \"Run\" Simmons, whose brother is Russell Simmons. Run-D.M.C. performed earlier this month at the star-studded Hip-Hop 50 concert in Yankee Stadium. Before we hear the interview I recorded with Darryl McDaniels in 1997, here he is on \"Sucker MC,\" the B-side of Run-D.M.C.'s first record, \"It's Like That.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 1, "text": "Darryl McDaniels, welcome to FRESH AIR. Let's talk about the history of Run-D.M.C., which spans a lot of the history of rap. But before we do, I had asked you before what you prefer that I call you, and you have a great rhyme that answers that question. Would you just do that rhyme for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) I'm D.M.C. in the place to be. I go to St. John's University. And since kindergarten, I acquired the knowledge. And after 12th grade, I went straight to college. I'm light-skinned. I live in"}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 2, "text": "That's good. How did you first hear rap?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. (Rapping) Well, you can call me Darryl. You can call me D. You can call me Darryl Mac (ph), or you can call me D.M.C. People always ask me, what does my name mean? D's for never dirty, MC for mo"}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 3, "text": "Now, what made you think, I want to do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wow, that's a good question. The first time I ever heard rap was back in 1970 - I think it was either '76 or '78. There was a radio show. It was like an underground radio show, and the disc jockey's n"}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 4, "text": "So did you sing before you started rhyming?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when I first started out, I wanted to be a DJ. I really liked the scratching and the quick mixing and, you know, doing the DJ things - spinning records and mixing records back and forth. And the"}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 5, "text": "And what were your very early rhymes like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I didn't. I started rhyming first."}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 6, "text": "Speaking of your neighborhood, you're from Hollis, Queens...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, well, the very early - my very early rhymes were, you know, basically simple, talking about I had the best rhymes. Nobody had more rhymes than me. My DJ was the best DJ. We had the loudest sound s"}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 7, "text": "...In New York. And the two other members of Run-D.M.C. are from the same neighborhood, I think.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 8, "text": "And you went to school together, right? You knew each other before you were a group.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 9, "text": "So when did you actually form Run-D.M.C.? Where were you in your school years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, definitely. We all lived in five blocks of each other. We went to elementary and high school and college together."}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 10, "text": "And were you in high school? In college?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, me and Run first started rhyming and DJing together in my basement. I actually taught Run how to DJ. He was rapping first. Then I taught him how to DJ, how to do the quick mix and how to spin re"}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 11, "text": "Did you leave college once you started performing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We was all in college. We was all in our first semester of college."}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 12, "text": "What were your parents' reaction to taking a leave of absence to perform? Did they think you were making a big mistake?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep. We took a leave of absence and been absent ever since."}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 13, "text": "How did they find out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, they was mad. They was like, are you crazy? What are you doing? And, you know, even when they got a hint of me wanting to be a rapper as my career, as my job, you know, they was telling me stuff l"}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 14, "text": "Did you play them the record? Did they like it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had to come tell them where I was at for the last 15 hours - you know? - 'cause I just left the house - it was a Sunday afternoon. I left the house about 1 o'clock, and I ain't come home in th"}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 15, "text": "Now, was that \"It's Like That\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I played them the record, and they didn't really like it till they heard it on the radio."}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 16, "text": "Great. Let's hear it. This is Run-D.M.C.'s first recording.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That was \"It's Like That.\""}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 17, "text": "That's Run-D.M.C., their first recording. And my guest is Darryl McDaniels, who's the D.M.C. in Run-D.M.C. Now, when you started performing, it was the big gold chain era.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) Money is the key to end all your woes - your ups, your downs, your highs and your lows. Won't you tell me last time that love bought you clothes? It's like that, and that's the way it is. Bi"}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 18, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Actually, we started that..."}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 19, "text": "There's some great pictures of you with giant, big gold chains.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...'Cause Russell..."}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well..."}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 21, "text": "What do you think it did for your image back then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like, when we was saying Russell was a big part of that, Jay was always dressing like that. The way Run-D.M.C. dressed, Jay always dressed like that. So when Russell seen Jay, he said, that's how you'"}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 22, "text": "So were the chains solid gold?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What it actually did - show that we had money, you know? It showed that we had the big gold chain and the fancy car and that we were truly the superstars of the neighborhood, you know, 'cause if you g"}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 23, "text": "You were teenagers when you started performing. How did you handle fame when it first hit you and you were still in your teens?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, me and Run's was semisolid, and Jay's was solid."}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 24, "text": "What was it like to suddenly have a lot of money?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, man, fame hit us so quick. I mean, it's like, now we got this thing that we say that certain periods in our career we can't remember, and we call it dazing. And it was just like we were just in a "}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 25, "text": "So you just started acquiring everything you could?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was - man, you know, me and Run always say, you know, when we was little, growing up and - you know, unless you was the star of the basketball team, the high school basketball team or the CYO"}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 26, "text": "Well, you know, you mentioned Adidas, and of course, you have a very famous record called \"My Adidas.\" Before we hear it, why don't you say a little bit about coming up with this rap?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, exactly. Everything that we ever wanted, we was able to get."}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 27, "text": "Darryl McDaniels is the co-founder of Run-D.M.C. Here's \"My Adidas.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's real funny, actually. Run's brother, Russell Simmons, came up with the idea. He, like, put it in the air. One day, he said, y'all need to make a record about your Adidas and how y'all come "}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 28, "text": "We're listening to my 1997 interview with Darryl McDaniels of Run-D.M.C. We'll hear more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) My Adidas walk through concert doors and roam all over coliseum floors. I stepped on stage at Live Aid, all the people gave and the poor got paid. And out of speakers I did speak. I wore my "}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 1997 interview with Darryl McDaniels of Run-D.M.C., one of the early rap groups to break into the mainstream. When we left off, we were talking about the way the group dressed, with its gold chains and Adidas sneakers, and the impression it made on their fans and how they dressed. Now, how did it feel to see so many of your fans copying you? I mean, on the one hand, it can make you feel really, you know, proud and big and everything. On the other hand, it can really make you wonder about the independent thinking", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) It's tricky. It's tricky, tricky, tricky, tricky, huh. When I wake up, people take up mostly all of my time. I'm not singing - phone keep ringing 'cause I make up a rhyme. I'm not bragging. "}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 30, "text": "of people.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) It's tricky. It's tricky, tricky, tricky, tricky, huh. When I wake up, people take up mostly all of my time. I'm not singing - phone keep ringing 'cause I make up a rhyme. I'm not bragging. "}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 31, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, well, actually, you know, my partner, Run, he was more excited about that. Like, wow, D - yo, look; we're big, you know what I'm saying? And, you know, from a record selling tip, you know, it' s"}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 32, "text": "Was there ever any pressure on you from producers or record companies to harden your image, to make it more hardcore?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But then on another tip, you know, I was, like, kind of bugged. I liked it when rap was more - everybody was more themselves but we all could relate to the music, you know what I'm saying? And now, I "}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 33, "text": "We'll hear more of my conversation with Darryl McDaniels of Run-D.M.C. after a break. And we'll continue our celebration of hip-hop's 50th anniversary with LL Cool J. Here's another track from Run-D.M.C. This is \"It's Tricky.\" I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, but we felt a pressure on ourselves in 1990. We made an album called \"Back From Hell.\" And on this \"Back From Hell\" album, it was, like, the first time where we ever really used profanity. And it "}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 34, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. This week, we're celebrating hip-hop's 50th anniversary by listening back to interviews from our archive with some of hip hop's groundbreaking performers. Let's get back to my 1997 interview with Darryl McDaniels of Run-D.M.C., one of rap's early groups to break into the mainstream. The Run in Run-D.M.C. is Reverend Joseph \"Run\" Simmons, whose brother is Russell Simmons. Run-D.M.C.'s DJ Jam Master Jay was shot and killed in a recording studio in Queens, N.Y., in 2002.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Yeow. Baby, give it up or turn it loose. And. Baby, give it up or turn it loose. Starting over again. Baby, give it up or turn it loose. Baby, give it up or turn it loose. All right. Baby, g"}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 35, "text": "Now, I know that you're Christian. Was there, like, a change in your life where you were born again or kind of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Yeow. Baby, give it up or turn it loose. And. Baby, give it up or turn it loose. Starting over again. Baby, give it up or turn it loose. Baby, give it up or turn it loose. All right. Baby, g"}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 36, "text": "And so when you were born again, how did that change your music and your lifestyle?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Right around that time, I mean, you know, the records wasn't selling. Everybody was saying we was over. You know, Run was smoking a lot of reefer. I was drinking a lot of beer. Things wasn't wel"}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 37, "text": "\"Down With The King.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, it cleaned up our lives. We stopped smoking reefer, stopped drinking beer, stop sleeping with every - you know, every groupie that you know and stopped running around with the drug dea"}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 38, "text": "Why don't we hear that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Down With The King.\""}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 39, "text": "The group has been together - well, you've been recording since - what? - 1982...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) I'm takin' the tours. I'm wreckin' the land. I keep it hardcore because it's dope, man. These are the roughest, toughest words I ever wrote down. Not meant for a ho like a slow jam. Check it"}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 40, "text": "...And started performing even before that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 41, "text": "Extraordinarily long, I mean, for any group but particularly, I think, in the world of rap.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 42, "text": "How do you think you managed to stay together that long?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's ridiculous."}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 43, "text": "A lot of rap groups really brag about their neighborhood, often bragging about how tough it is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wow. That's really a good question. The reason why we stayed together that long because we never let the fortune and fame take away from the true art form of what rapping and MCing means to us, meanin"}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 44, "text": "What was your neighborhood like? Hollis, Queens.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 45, "text": "Now, did you ever feel like you had to cover up the fact that your neighborhood was pretty middle class and that your parents wouldn't let you play hooky?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, Hollis, Queens was - you know, it was a middle-class, hard-working neighborhood. It had a lot of educated people there. But you also had, you know, violence and drugs and prostitution and murder a"}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 46, "text": "Well, I want to thank you so much for talking with us. We're out of time. I wish we weren't, but we got to go", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it was no way we could hide it because that was something the reporters made known to everybody, you know, 'cause they thought it was a big thing. All right. Here you got this rap group making all"}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 47, "text": ". So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it was no way we could hide it because that was something the reporters made known to everybody, you know, 'cause they thought it was a big thing. All right. Here you got this rap group making all"}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 48, "text": "Yeah, thanks a lot for talking with us. I really appreciate it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thanks for having me."}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 49, "text": "Darryl McDaniels of Run-D.M.C., recorded in 1997. Coming up - LL Cool J, another of the early rappers to achieve commercial success. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was my pleasure."}
{"id": "1196542770", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Darryl Mcdaniels", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Run-D.M.C.'s Darryl McDaniels", "question_index": 50, "text": "THE", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was my pleasure."}
{"id": "1196546381", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Ll Cool J", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: LL Cool J", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The next interview in our hip-hop history series is with LL Cool J, another early rapper to have commercial success. He's had several platinum recordings and won two Grammys since he made his recording debut in 1984 at the age of 16. His first record was the first release for Def Jam. LL Cool J has also had a career in television, starring in \"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1196546381", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Ll Cool J", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: LL Cool J", "question_index": 1, "text": "LL Cool J, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) I need a beat. I need a beat. I need a beat. And it's a Malibu beat, subject of discussion. Malibu beat, subject of discussion. You're motivated, in aid a percussion. There's no glory for th"}
{"id": "1196546381", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Ll Cool J", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: LL Cool J", "question_index": 2, "text": "You were still in high school, I think, when this record came out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much."}
{"id": "1196546381", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Ll Cool J", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: LL Cool J", "question_index": 3, "text": "So what was it like, you know, going to high school and having a hit record at the same time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I was 16 years old."}
{"id": "1196546381", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Ll Cool J", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: LL Cool J", "question_index": 4, "text": "Well, I think your grandmother gave you an ultimatum when you were in high school - either you stay in school or you get out of the house.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was funny because there was a lot of jealousy. A lot of guys tried to pick on me. A lot of people tried to tell me, oh, you're not going to make it. You're lying. That's not your record. You're not"}
{"id": "1196546381", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Ll Cool J", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: LL Cool J", "question_index": 5, "text": "So you ended up leaving the house, and you say you were homeless for a couple of weeks. And you slept on the trains for a while until...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She did. She did."}
{"id": "1196546381", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Ll Cool J", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: LL Cool J", "question_index": 6, "text": "Didn't you have any money yet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I did."}
{"id": "1196546381", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Ll Cool J", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: LL Cool J", "question_index": 7, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No, I didn't. Actually, what happened was I recorded my first song. It did OK. And after I stopped doing the shows, I didn't have any income. So I had no money. I remember getting a room in Brookl"}
{"id": "1196546381", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Ll Cool J", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: LL Cool J", "question_index": 8, "text": "It sounds like early on you spent the money on cars and just really showy, flashy things.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And even then, I didn't know what to do with the money. So it was - you know, it's kind of a strange paradox, you know? I started, you know, doing different things and doing different shows, but becau"}
{"id": "1196546381", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Ll Cool J", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: LL Cool J", "question_index": 9, "text": "Now, tell me how you feel when you look back at old photos of yourself and see a picture of you with that really thick, big, gold chain.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I did. I think that my focus was a little lost. I was kind of caught up in the materialistic aspect of, you know, making music and being an entertainer."}
{"id": "1196546381", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Ll Cool J", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: LL Cool J", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The really thick, big, gold chain?"}
{"id": "1196546381", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Ll Cool J", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: LL Cool J", "question_index": 11, "text": "That's true.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's funny and it's humorous, but it was in style at the time. I mean, you know, it's like John Travolta looking back at that white suit in \"Saturday Night Fever.\""}
{"id": "1196546381", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Ll Cool J", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: LL Cool J", "question_index": 12, "text": "I feel like if you had come to me and asked, I could have told you it was going to look really dated eventually.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was bananas. It was ridiculous, you know what I'm saying? But..."}
{"id": "1196546381", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Ll Cool J", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: LL Cool J", "question_index": 13, "text": "So tell me how you kind of created your style in terms of your image, your look, early on.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I would have went with the jeans and T-shirt thing. That might have worked back then. But, you know, hey, we live and learn."}
{"id": "1196546381", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Ll Cool J", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: LL Cool J", "question_index": 14, "text": "You had, like, the first big rap ballad...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what it was was it wasn't even me creating my style. It was like, I would go up to Jamaica Avenue, which was the place to shop in Queens, in the area that I lived, and I would buy the clothes th"}
{"id": "1196546381", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Ll Cool J", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: LL Cool J", "question_index": 15, "text": "...\"I Need Love.\" What made you think of doing a rap ballad? Rap is, for the most part, a music that's either about, you know, bragging how great you are or how tough you are or how good you are at making love. But there aren't a lot of, like, love ballads within the genre.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1196546381", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Ll Cool J", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: LL Cool J", "question_index": 16, "text": "You know, in your book, you say that in a way, this record was a risk because you could have looked soft. And I was wondering, gee, well, what about, you know, like, Smokey Robinson and Marvin Gaye and Al Green...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was funny. I think that for me, I always looked at rap music as a way to express - a vehicle to express my feelings and my emotions. You know, coming from an abusive childhood, rap music was the "}
{"id": "1196546381", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Ll Cool J", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: LL Cool J", "question_index": 17, "text": "...All the kind of great aching ballads of soul music and rhythm and blues?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's funny."}
{"id": "1196546381", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Ll Cool J", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: LL Cool J", "question_index": 18, "text": "Well, this is LL Cool J, \"I Need Love.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I never felt like - me personally, I never felt like I could look soft. I think that the - at the time, a lot of people around me felt like there was some chance of this record making, you know,"}
{"id": "1196546381", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Ll Cool J", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: LL Cool J", "question_index": 19, "text": "LL Cool J recorded in 1997. Coming up, the story behind the catchy bass and guitar groove on the first hit rap record, \"Rapper's Delight.\" That groove was borrowed from Chic's hit disco record \"Good Times.\" We'll hear from Chic's guitarist Nile Rodgers. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) When I'm alone in my room, sometimes I stare at the wall. And in the back of my mind, I hear my conscience call, telling me I need a girl who's as sweet as a dove. For the first time in my l"}
{"id": "1196546860", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Nile Rodgers", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Chic guitarist Nile Rodgers", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The song credited with being the first hip-hop recording to get wide radio play and cross over to a white audience was the Sugarhill Gang's \"Rapper's Delight,\" which came out in 1979. One reason why it was so catchy was the bass and guitar groove, which was borrowed from the disco hit \"Good Times\" by the group Chic. Chic's guitarist who came up with the rhythm line was Nile Rodgers. We're about to hear Nile Rodgers tell the story of how that happened. Chic's other disco hits included \"Dance, Dance, Dance\" and \"Le Freak.\" Nile Rodgers also produced Madonna's album \"Like A Virgin,\" David Bowie's \"Let's Dance,\" Sister Sledge's \"We Are Family\" and Diana Ross' album \"Diana.\" Here's an excerpt of my 1996 interview with Nile Rodgers.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1196546860", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Nile Rodgers", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Chic guitarist Nile Rodgers", "question_index": 1, "text": "I want to play a hit that Chic had that had the bassline that everybody wanted. I'm thinking, of course, of \"Good Times.\" This has one of the most borrowed basslines in recent music.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1196546860", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Nile Rodgers", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Chic guitarist Nile Rodgers", "question_index": 2, "text": "Let's hear it, and then you could tell us how you came up with this rhythm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1196546860", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Nile Rodgers", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Chic guitarist Nile Rodgers", "question_index": 3, "text": "That's \"Good Times,\" the band Chic. My guest, Nile Rodgers, co-founded the band and was the guitarist. So how did you come up with this rhythm?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Good times. These are the good times. Leave your cares behind. These are the good times, good times. These are the good times."}
{"id": "1196546860", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Nile Rodgers", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Chic guitarist Nile Rodgers", "question_index": 4, "text": "That's interesting. I had no idea he was actually there while it was being done. Now, of course, that line was also used - sampled, I believe, in \"Rapper's Delight,\" which was, I think, the first rap hit...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the interesting thing about this song is that the day that I wrote \"Good Times,\" I was actually in the studio with our drummer, Tony Thompson, at the time and the bass player from Queen, John De"}
{"id": "1196546860", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Nile Rodgers", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Chic guitarist Nile Rodgers", "question_index": 5, "text": "...Featuring the Sugarhill Gang. Well, let me play it first.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1196546860", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Nile Rodgers", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Chic guitarist Nile Rodgers", "question_index": 6, "text": "That's the Sugarhill Gang using the bass and guitar line that you and Bernard Edwards came up with for your record \"Good Times.\" What was - how did you first hear this? And what was your reaction when you did?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) Hip-hop, the hippie - the hippie to the hip, hip-hop. And you don't stop rocking out, baby, bubba, to the boogety (ph) bang-bang, the boogie to the boogety beat. Now, what you hear is not a "}
{"id": "1196546860", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Nile Rodgers", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Chic guitarist Nile Rodgers", "question_index": 7, "text": "Did you sue?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Now, this is funny. When I first heard \"Rapper's Delight,\" I was at a club in New York - a disco, if you will - called Leviticus. And the DJ was a good friend of mine, and he played this song. The thi"}
{"id": "1196546860", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Nile Rodgers", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Chic guitarist Nile Rodgers", "question_index": 8, "text": "Did you win?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure, we sued."}
{"id": "1196546860", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Nile Rodgers", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Chic guitarist Nile Rodgers", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course we won."}
{"id": "1196546860", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Nile Rodgers", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Chic guitarist Nile Rodgers", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, did you like the record?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course. You couldn't take a product and just - I mean, this was before sampling, you know? No one - there were no devices to do this. They just had a DJ with turntables live in the studio. And they"}
{"id": "1196546860", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Nile Rodgers", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Chic guitarist Nile Rodgers", "question_index": 11, "text": "Nile Rodgers is a guitarist, record producer and co-founder of the group Chic. Our interview was recorded in 1996. Our hip-hop history series continues tomorrow, featuring interviews from our archive with Ice-T, one of the early gangster rappers. He went on to star as a detective in \"Law & Order: SVU.\" And we'll hear from Queen Latifah, the first female rap solo artist to earn a gold album. She now stars in the TV series \"The Equalizer.\" I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I loved the record. It was one of my favorite records. It's still one of my favorite records of all time. I thought it was very clever and inventive. And, I mean, you know, early rap records, to me, w"}
{"id": "1196546860", "date": "2023-08-29", "guest": "Nile Rodgers", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Chic guitarist Nile Rodgers", "question_index": 12, "text": "Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I loved the record. It was one of my favorite records. It's still one of my favorite records of all time. I thought it was very clever and inventive. And, I mean, you know, early rap records, to me, w"}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. This week, we're celebrating hip-hop's 50th anniversary. We're featuring interviews from our archive with performers who hold a significant place in that history. Our first interview today is with Ice-T. He was one of the early gangster rappers and was both popular and controversial. In 1987, he was signed to Sire Records and released his debut album, \"Rhyme Pays,\" which won gold. His follow-up, \"Power,\" went platinum. In 1992, his heavy metal band, Body Count, released their self-titled album, which included the song \"Cop Killer.\" The song was so controversial, it was withdrawn from the market, and the album was rereleased without that track. As an actor, the paradox of Ice-T's career is obvious. He played a police detective in his first major acting role in the 1991 film \"New Jack City.\" He's probably best known now for his role as a police detective, appearing in over 400 episodes of \"Law & Order: SVU.\" I spoke with Ice-T in 1994 after the publication of his book, \"The Ice Opinion.\" Let's start with an autobiographical rap from his 1993 album, \"Home Invasion.\" This is \"That's How I'm Livin'.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 1, "text": "Ice-T, welcome to FRESH AIR. You were really one of the first gangster rappers. Did you relate to party rap when rap was starting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) I was born in New Jersey. I said it before, but I guess nobody heard me. My mother died young. No sisters or brothers, I was the only son. When I was 12, my pops died, too. What's a brother "}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 2, "text": "Now, how did you start doing that? What was the turning point where you decided you weren't going to try to fake it and do the party raps, that you were going to talk about the life you knew?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. When I first got off into rap, I tried to rap in the party rap-type style because I was under the impression that's what rappers did. But it was kind of like I was faking it because I had never "}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 3, "text": "Could you do a couple of lines from that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I made - my first record ever I made was a record called \"Coldest Rap,\" and it was on a record called \"Cold Wind.\" One side was called \"Cold Wind-Madness,\" and that was on an independent label. "}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 4, "text": "Oh, maybe not, huh?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What, \"6 'N The Mornin'?\""}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 5, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I could do it. You know..."}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 6, "text": "Now, what was the very first time you took a microphone?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...What I mean? It went, (rapping) 6 in the morning, police at my door, fresh Adidas squeaked across the bathroom floor. Out the back window, I made my escape. Didn't even get a chance to grab my old "}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 7, "text": "Do you remember anything you said that very first time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was - I was in the Army, and the record called \"Rapper's Delight\" had came out, and that was the first time I had ever really heard it done to music. And on the B-side of it, it was an instrumental"}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 8, "text": "Yeah. I mean, you've even criticized some hardcore rappers who abandon hardcore and do more dance music. What's wrong with dance music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I tried to say the street rhymes that I had been saying on the streets, you know, strolling through the city in the middle of my - in the middle of the night. I used to sing, like, gang rhymes. "}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, nothing's wrong with it. But, I mean, hardcore rap, to me, is - the difference between pop and hardcore is with hardcore, you're saying exactly what's on your mind. You're being true to your feeli"}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 10, "text": "When you started making records, though, did you ever worry that all the traditional avenues that people hear records would be closed to you? It wasn't going to be in the jukeboxes or on the radio because of four-letter words?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Now, if that's what you do - don't get me wrong. If that - if you are a pop rapper, I have no problem with that. You know, I love MC Hammer. I love Fresh Prince, and I love Kid 'n Play. That's them. B"}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 11, "text": "You grew up in New York, or at least when you were very young, you were in...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I really didn't care, because to me, I did it to have fun. It was fun. It's not a - it turned, then, to being an occupation. But you got to remember, when I started rapping, nobody was making any mone"}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 12, "text": "...New York, and - New Jersey.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, New Jersey."}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 13, "text": "Thank you. And your parents died when you were young. Both of your parents were dead, I think, by the time you were 12. Can I ask how they died?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 14, "text": "Who's they? Who told you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mother died from a heart attack, and my father just died. I don't know. I just was called from school one day, and they're like, your pops is dead. And I'm like, oh. And then, you know, I never rea"}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 15, "text": "So that's how you ended up in LA?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "His sister, my aunt. And then they were - then the next - before - well, I got there in, like, one week. Then all of a sudden, all my clothes popped up out there in boxes. So I kind of, like, got ship"}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 16, "text": "In your book, you said that she was a religious woman.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, living with my father's younger sister, who wasn't really a nice woman. She was kind of like a woman who was - said I'm taking care of you 'cause I got to. Shut up, sit down, all that, you know?"}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 17, "text": "So where did you go at 17?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, she wasn't a religious woman. She was a drunk. She was a social worker, a woman who would go around and analyze whether kids should stay in foster homes and stuff. And she was a terrible person. S"}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 18, "text": "Now, what high school were you going to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I got my own place. I took a little money I was getting for Social Security. I was receiving Social Security check - $250 a month. And I bought - I got an apartment which was $100 a month. I took anot"}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 19, "text": "This was in South Central?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Crenshaw."}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 20, "text": "It must have been good to have your own apartment. I mean, when you're in high school, somebody's got their own apartment, that's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, dead - the center of - that's the dead center of Los Angeles, Crenshaw High School."}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 21, "text": "Yeah", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Makes you the man."}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Makes you the man."}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 23, "text": "A girlfriend.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's - that did happen. You know, all my friends and stuff I got, you know, I had the pad. And it turned me, like, into a leader, you know? So by just being a little bit in front of everybody "}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 24, "text": "So what'd you do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, my girlfriend. She was in the 10th grade, but, you know, I'm Mr. Man About Town, got my own apartment. Whoop, now I got a baby. So, you know..."}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 25, "text": "But that meant getting away from the baby, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...A little too much freedom. Huh? Oh, at that point, I decided - I tried to stay down with the kid. But I - you know, that's when all of a sudden, a little - a bit of responsibility tried to hit me, "}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 26, "text": "So are you still in touch with the woman who had the baby and with the baby?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not really. It was just a job. It was a way of doing something. You know, at that point, I was on the streets. I was trying to go to technical college. But, you know, crime was knocking there at my do"}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 27, "text": "Oh, she does?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, definitely. Yeah, my daughter lives with me now."}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 28, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 29, "text": "So what kind of crimes were they doing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So that's cool and stuff, you know? But when I came out of the Army, all my friends who were small-time, little, you know, petty crooks now were bigger crooks, you know? And that's how I got off invol"}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 30, "text": "In your book \"The Ice Opinion,\" you wrote that you wanted to be a pimp.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Everything. You know, you name it, we did it, you know? But basically, anything - everything that you could do without actually bringing bodily harm to somebody. I didn't hang around with a bunch of v"}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 31, "text": "Why did you want to be a pimp?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 32, "text": "Is that how you see it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I admired pimps because when I was growing up, the only people that had everything around me were the pimps and the drug dealers. And I really wasn't into drugs 'cause I don't do drugs or even drink. "}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 33, "text": "We're listening to my 1994 interview with Ice-T. We'll hear more of our conversation after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, everything can be broken down. Everything you see on the street, it's like - it's only one game, right? You have capitalism and you have different versions of it. Drug dealing is capitalis"}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 34, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 1994 interview with rapper and actor Ice-T. In this part of the interview, we talked about the language he used to describe women in some of his recordings and why many women found that language offensive.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, everything can be broken down. Everything you see on the street, it's like - it's only one game, right? You have capitalism and you have different versions of it. Drug dealing is capitalis"}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 35, "text": "So much rap to me seems to be about getting respect, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, everything can be broken down. Everything you see on the street, it's like - it's only one game, right? You have capitalism and you have different versions of it. Drug dealing is capitalis"}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 36, "text": "Then I can't understand why so many rappers treat women with so little respect when they're so demanding of respect for themselves.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 37, "text": "But you know that if a woman wants to call herself something, that's one thing. If a man calls a woman a b****, that's something different. And as a friend and colleague says, those are fighting words.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "True. The word b**** and stuff is just - it's really street dialogue, words that are used and really don't hold a lot of power, you know? I mean, this is just the bottom line. It doesn't really hold a"}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 38, "text": "But the word seems representative of other attitudes too. Like on your latest album, \"Home Invasion,\" on the track \"99 Problems\"...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's cool. But maybe we're saying, let's fight. It's not - I could be a b****, you know? But in the ghetto, we throw these words around. If you sat around some Black kids in the hood, that's h"}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 39, "text": "...One of the line is - I can't say the word, but it's a four letter word for sex, right? So it's, I blank them all and leave them on the curb. I mean, come on. I mean, you know, that's really...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 40, "text": "Well, I'm white.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But listen to Salt-N-Pepa's new record. They're saying the same thing about men. It's ghetto Black female sparring. We continuously do this, and this is just our thing, and we've done it. I mean, my f"}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 41, "text": "But, I mean, white people have this long history of sexism, but that doesn't make it, like, a thing our people do, so therefore it's cool. I mean, it's bad.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I understand it, but..."}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 42, "text": "Well, a lot of white women criticize rock 'n' roll.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But you don't see Black people criticizing rock 'n' roll."}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 43, "text": "You know, there's a lot of Black women criticizing rap now, though.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's for you to do. You got to understand that if a woman makes a record, she's going to make it from a woman's perspective."}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 44, "text": "Uh-huh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's a lot of what - Black women making rap that I think is derogatory toward men."}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 45, "text": "I still don't buy it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Touche."}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 46, "text": "Do you think that any of the gangster rap has hardened into a caricature of itself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm thinking, you know, let's just kick back and enjoy the ride. It's not that serious. There's homeless people out there."}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 47, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. A lot of it's corny. A lot of it's real fake. I mean, any time I listen to a gangster rapper and he's talking about how tough he is and all this jail stuff and all that and how many people, you "}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 48, "text": "You said you don't mind kids emulating the clothes. I think, in fact, you're marketing your own line called O.G.G., Original Gangsta Gear.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He writes it in such graphic details that it's like watching a feature film, you know? And I appreciate it. But then there's some kids I can just tell that have no idea what they're talking about."}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 49, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Original Gangsta Gear. And the only reason we call it Original Gangsta Gear is because that's what people now call me 'cause I had an album called O.G. That's, like, my side title, Ice-T, the O.G., ri"}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 50, "text": "Let me ask you. You're a father now. Well, you're a father for at least a second time anyways.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...My English correct as often as possible. But it's like - I was like, look, none of these people want to sponsor me. They're scared of me and all this. Let me make my own clothes. It's only right if"}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 51, "text": "Yeah. So how does being a father affect you as a performer and a writer? Any impact on that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 52, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not really, 'cause my daughter - she's been around, and so she knows all about the nasty lyrics. She loves them. She's the coolest kid at the school. You know, her little girlfriends going, your daddy"}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 53, "text": "I want to thank you a lot for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know? You know, she's cool with it. She grew up around a house full of cursing and stuff. She don't curse in front of me - just the way I grew up. My father cursed. I just didn't curse in front"}
{"id": "1196652260", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Ice-T", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Ice-T", "question_index": 54, "text": "My interview with Ice-T was recorded in 1994. Coming up, we'll hear my 1999 interview with rapper, singer and actor Queen Latifah. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1196657592", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Queen Latifah", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Queen Latifah", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's continue our hip-hop history series with my 1999 interview with Queen Latifah. Her first album, \"All Hail The Queen,\" was released in 1989 and established her image as an Afrocentric, independent female artist, a stark contrast to the misogyny of some of her fellow rappers. Her third album, 1993's \"Black Reign,\" became the first album by a solo female rapper to go gold. In 1998, she was the first rapper to perform at the Super Bowl halftime show. This year, she became only the second hip-hop artist to be named a Kennedy Center honoree. Like our first guest Ice-T, Queen Latifah is famous for both her music and acting. In the '90s, she starred in the sitcom \"Living Single.\" She was nominated for an Oscar for her performance in the film musical adaptation of the Broadway musical \"Chicago.\" And she currently stars in the CBS crime drama \"The Equalizer\" as a former CIA agent who now works independently on the side of justice for those in need. When I spoke to Queen Latifah in 1999, we started with her Grammy Award-winning song, \"U.N.I.T.Y.\" In the song, she uses the B-word to talk about what she doesn't like about that word.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1196657592", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Queen Latifah", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Queen Latifah", "question_index": 1, "text": "In this rap, you talk about what you don't like about b**** and ho kind of language. Elaborate on that for me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) U.N.I.T.Y. That's a unity. U.N.I.T.Y. You got to let him know you ain't a b**** or a ho. Instinct leads me to another flow. Every time I hear a brother call a girl a b**** or a ho, trying to"}
{"id": "1196657592", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Queen Latifah", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Queen Latifah", "question_index": 2, "text": "Did you feel that that language represented larger attitudes toward women in the music world or the rap world or among your friends?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, at the time, there were so many records coming out with, you know, rappers calling women, you know, b**** this, ho that. And I just thought it was, like, getting out of control. It was becom"}
{"id": "1196657592", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Queen Latifah", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Queen Latifah", "question_index": 3, "text": "As a woman who was a rapper, were you expected to go along with that? Were people surprised when you took issue with it in your rap?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, definitely. Some people use that word to apply to all women, you know? And it seems like the word - I mean, I felt like, you know, it's time somebody said something about it because it was just "}
{"id": "1196657592", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Queen Latifah", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Queen Latifah", "question_index": 4, "text": "Now, Queen Latifah, you may have the only rap record - at least the only one I know of - that has the line, I'm staying celibate, in it. And this is about somebody whose body wants to have sex but their mind is saying no.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I think people respected me for it, you know? They may have been surprised, but I think they respected me for it."}
{"id": "1196657592", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Queen Latifah", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Queen Latifah", "question_index": 5, "text": "Why don't I play some of this? This is called \"No/Yes.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1196657592", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Queen Latifah", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Queen Latifah", "question_index": 6, "text": "Queen Latifah, tell me a little bit about the writing of this record.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) Oh, Flavor Unit. Fine-tune it. Talking about sex in the '90s. Yeah, My mind keep telling me, should I do it or don't do it? My body keep telling me, should I do it or don't do it? My mind ke"}
{"id": "1196657592", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Queen Latifah", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Queen Latifah", "question_index": 7, "text": "When you first started going to clubs to hear music, you say that the one that you used to go to a lot was called Latin Quarters in Manhattan, and you were living in Newark. So you'd go across the river, go to this club in Manhattan. And you said you'd take back to New Jersey with you some of the styles and the new lingo that you were picking up from the rap club in Manhattan. What were the things you took back with you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This record was fun because this record was also taken from another real-life experience where I was in Miami with someone that I went to high school with who wound up doing security. He's a cop now, "}
{"id": "1196657592", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Queen Latifah", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Queen Latifah", "question_index": 8, "text": "Now, the first name that you rapped under was Princess of the Posse. How did you decide on that name for yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The dances. That was - like, one of the most popular dances to ever come out in rap history was this dance called the wop. And it started there. It started in that club. It started in New York City an"}
{"id": "1196657592", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Queen Latifah", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Queen Latifah", "question_index": 9, "text": "So what was it like being the only female in your posse?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, Latifah was my name. The Princess of the Posse was just my little title, you know, because I was, like, the only girl in our crew. And Ramsey was kind of like - Ramsey and DJ Mark The 45 King were"}
{"id": "1196657592", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Queen Latifah", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Queen Latifah", "question_index": 10, "text": "We're listening to my 1999 interview with Queen Latifah. We'll hear more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wasn't the only female, but I was the only female - it felt good. I was - you know, I was cool with it, you know? And then all my friends - I introduced, like, a lot of my friends to the guys in my "}
{"id": "1196657592", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Queen Latifah", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Queen Latifah", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 1999 interview with rapper and actor Queen Latifah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wasn't the only female, but I was the only female - it felt good. I was - you know, I was cool with it, you know? And then all my friends - I introduced, like, a lot of my friends to the guys in my "}
{"id": "1196657592", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Queen Latifah", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Queen Latifah", "question_index": 12, "text": "How did you decide what you wanted your image to be?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wasn't the only female, but I was the only female - it felt good. I was - you know, I was cool with it, you know? And then all my friends - I introduced, like, a lot of my friends to the guys in my "}
{"id": "1196657592", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Queen Latifah", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Queen Latifah", "question_index": 13, "text": "It's good you had your clothes made, too, because you write in your book that you hated the full-sized women shops. You didn't like the clothes in there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I kind of just wanted it to not be like anybody else that was already out. So, you know, when the record company gave me some money to go shopping to take - you know, to get clothes and stuff for my p"}
{"id": "1196657592", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Queen Latifah", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Queen Latifah", "question_index": 14, "text": "You know, you use your size on stage as power, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah. Most of the time, it's just some big, you know - I mean, things have gotten a lot nicer since, you know, then. I was - you know, that was, like, 10, 12 years ago or whatever. But yeah, thi"}
{"id": "1196657592", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Queen Latifah", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Queen Latifah", "question_index": 15, "text": "Tell me about your name, Queen Latifah - not just Latifah, but Queen Latifah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Why not? I am statuesque. My stature goes right along with my personality."}
{"id": "1196657592", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Queen Latifah", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Queen Latifah", "question_index": 16, "text": "That's her job.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, initially, the queen was put on because I didn't want to be MC Latifah. Just back - goes back to not wanting to be like everyone else. You know, MC Latifah didn't sound right to me. It just soun"}
{"id": "1196657592", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Queen Latifah", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Queen Latifah", "question_index": 17, "text": "How old were you when you started calling yourself Latifah?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, 'cause, you know, your 17-year-old daughter calls herself Queen Latifah, you're going to likely crack up a little bit."}
{"id": "1196657592", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Queen Latifah", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Queen Latifah", "question_index": 18, "text": "That's really young to decide you want to change your name. What made you want to do that at such a young age?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was 8."}
{"id": "1196657592", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Queen Latifah", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Queen Latifah", "question_index": 19, "text": "When you started rapping, gangster rap was very popular. Did you relate to the stories of gangs and guns?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't want to change my name. It was kind of a nickname, you know? Everybody did it. I was a follower. Don't you know? No, where I'm from in Newark, it's like a lot of people pick up Muslim names. "}
{"id": "1196657592", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Queen Latifah", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Queen Latifah", "question_index": 20, "text": "We're listening to my 1999 interview with rapper and actor Queen Latifah. We'll hear more of the interview after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we had gangs and guns, but not to the extent that they did here in California. You know, it wasn't quite the same. And we had, like, gangs, but, see, gangs played out in Jersey, in New York. The"}
{"id": "1196657592", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Queen Latifah", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Queen Latifah", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview from 1999 with rapper and actor Queen Latifah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we had gangs and guns, but not to the extent that they did here in California. You know, it wasn't quite the same. And we had, like, gangs, but, see, gangs played out in Jersey, in New York. The"}
{"id": "1196657592", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Queen Latifah", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Queen Latifah", "question_index": 22, "text": "You have been doing, you know, a lot of acting. You had - you were the star of the TV series \"Living Single.\" You've been in several movies, including \"Juice\" and \"Get It Off\" - is that what it's called?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we had gangs and guns, but not to the extent that they did here in California. You know, it wasn't quite the same. And we had, like, gangs, but, see, gangs played out in Jersey, in New York. The"}
{"id": "1196657592", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Queen Latifah", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Queen Latifah", "question_index": 23, "text": "\"Set It Off\" - yeah. I saw it, and I couldn't think of the title.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Set It Off.\""}
{"id": "1196657592", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Queen Latifah", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Queen Latifah", "question_index": 24, "text": "\"Set It Off\" and, oh, \"Living Out Loud.\" When you got into acting, did you - had you planned to get into acting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Set It Off.\""}
{"id": "1196657592", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Queen Latifah", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Queen Latifah", "question_index": 25, "text": "Since you were a kid?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was something that I always wanted to do."}
{"id": "1196657592", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Queen Latifah", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Queen Latifah", "question_index": 26, "text": "Your first movie was \"Juice,\" right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I acted in school plays and stuff. I never had any, like, really formal training, as in classes or anything like that, but I felt like I had a talent, you know, and I felt like I would -"}
{"id": "1196657592", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Queen Latifah", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Queen Latifah", "question_index": 27, "text": "Oh, \"Jungle Fever.\" OK, that was, like, a small role, very small role, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My first movie was - was it \"Juice\" or \"Jungle Fever\"?"}
{"id": "1196657592", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Queen Latifah", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Queen Latifah", "question_index": 28, "text": "OK. And then in \"Juice,\" you had a larger role as a DJ, so it was kind of pretty close to who you are.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, one day."}
{"id": "1196657592", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Queen Latifah", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Queen Latifah", "question_index": 29, "text": "You didn't have to, like, reinvent yourself completely...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1196657592", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Queen Latifah", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Queen Latifah", "question_index": 30, "text": "...For that. Was that a good way to get started, you know, in a role that was pretty close to home?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, exactly."}
{"id": "1196657592", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Queen Latifah", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Queen Latifah", "question_index": 31, "text": "What's the closest you've come to the - to a role that's not remotely like you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know what? It was, I guess, in a way, but then it wasn't. You know, it was kind of like I got sick of playing what people thought Queen Latifah was in their scripts. Like, people would look "}
{"id": "1196657592", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Queen Latifah", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Queen Latifah", "question_index": 32, "text": "And describe your character.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Set It Off\" - Cleo."}
{"id": "1196657592", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Queen Latifah", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Queen Latifah", "question_index": 33, "text": "Did you see a lot of homophobia surface after your performance?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Cleo in \"Set It Off.\" She was basically orphaned at a young age. She had no one left, really, but her friends. Her friends were the most important thing, you know, in her life to her. She would die fo"}
{"id": "1196657592", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Queen Latifah", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Queen Latifah", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. You know, I didn't. People had love for that character. And that was what I really wanted to do. I wanted to make them really love her. You know, that character was so great, and the script was so"}
{"id": "1196657592", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Queen Latifah", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Queen Latifah", "question_index": 35, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, I mean, basically, the - there's a scene in there where I kiss this girl, and I have yet to watch this scene because I can't watch it, you know, myself. I can't - I don't think I could just watch "}
{"id": "1196657592", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Queen Latifah", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Queen Latifah", "question_index": 36, "text": "In one of your records, you say, Latifah's on vacation; I'm just plain old Dana today. Do you often feel that way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Ew, ooh. You know, people - I mean, you could hear this big roar in the theater. But by the time that the end of the movie came, they were, like, cheering for the girls, like, cheering for us to, l"}
{"id": "1196657592", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Queen Latifah", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Queen Latifah", "question_index": 37, "text": "I want to thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I do have to put Latifah on. Because you know what? Latifah is me, but then she became bigger than me, you know, because Queen Latifah is known in all these places. And, you know, everybody know"}
{"id": "1196657592", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Queen Latifah", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Queen Latifah", "question_index": 38, "text": "My interview with Queen Latifah was recorded in 1999. She now stars in the CBS crime series \"The Equalizer.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our hip-hop history week continues with interviews from two different groups known for their clever lyrics and inventive use of samples - De La Soul and the Beastie Boys. I hope you can join us. And if you'd like a peek behind the scenes at FRESH AIR, subscribe to our newsletter. This week, we're compiling a playlist of music by all the artists we're featuring during this week of shows celebrating the 50th anniversary of hip-hop. To get the playlist, subscribe to the newsletter, whyy.org/freshair. That's whyy.org/freshair.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. I had a great time."}
{"id": "1196657592", "date": "2023-08-30", "guest": "Queen Latifah", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Queen Latifah", "question_index": 39, "text": "Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley, and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Ooh, ladies first, ladies first. Ooh, ladies first, ladies first. Ooh, ladies first, ladies first. Ooh, ladies first, ladies first."}
{"id": "1196973297", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: De La Soul's Trugoy the Dove and Maseo", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. This week we're celebrating hip-hop's 50th anniversary by featuring interviews from our archive with performers who hold a significant place in that history. Today two groups known for their innovative sampling and smart, clever lyrics - De La Soul and the Beastie Boys. We'll start with De La Soul.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1196973297", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: De La Soul's Trugoy the Dove and Maseo", "question_index": 1, "text": "De La Soul made its debut in 1989 with the album \"3 Feet High And Rising,\" which went against the grain of harder rap that was prominent at the time. The album was not only fun, it was funny. It sampled a wide range of music, from Liberace to Steely Dan to George Clinton, and it helped launch what was called the Native Tongues movement, a collective of hip-hop artists known for positive, playful lyrics and a lack of posturing. The founding members of De La Soul were David Jolicoeur, or Dave, otherwise known as Trugoy the Dove; Vincent Mason, known as Mase; and Kelvin Mercer, known as Pos or Posdnuos. The group formed when they were in high school in Amityville, Long Island, and were discovered by DJ and producer Prince Paul. Their album \"3 Feet High And Rising\" is in the Library of Congress' National Recording Registry. But despite their influence, their music had been unavailable for years because of legal issues having to do with their record company and sampling. This year they got the rights to their master recordings and now you can stream and download their music. But sadly, Dave Jolicoeur died in February at the age of 54, just before their music became available. In 2000, I spoke to Dave and Mase after the release of their album \"Art Official Intelligence.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) Mirror, mirror on the wall. Tell me, mirror. What is wrong? Can it be my de la clothes? Or is it just my De La Soul? What I do ain't make-believe. People say I sit and try. But when it comes"}
{"id": "1196973297", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: De La Soul's Trugoy the Dove and Maseo", "question_index": 2, "text": "Dave, Mase, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) Mirror, mirror on the wall. Tell me, mirror. What is wrong? Can it be my de la clothes? Or is it just my De La Soul? What I do ain't make-believe. People say I sit and try. But when it comes"}
{"id": "1196973297", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: De La Soul's Trugoy the Dove and Maseo", "question_index": 3, "text": "Let me play something from the first De La Soul record, \"3 Feet High And Rising.\" And on this CD, you pay tribute to a type of kids song I imagine you grew up with, which is \"Multiplication Rock.\" And so this is - this kind of takes off from there. Let's hear it. This is \"Three Is The Magic Number\" (ph).", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having us."}
{"id": "1196973297", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: De La Soul's Trugoy the Dove and Maseo", "question_index": 4, "text": "That's from De La Soul's first CD. It was really refreshing, I think, to hear rap that was ironic and really playful. And I'm wondering if you were almost afraid to do that then because it was so different from the kind of more hardcore rap that took itself really seriously about how good the rapper was in bed or on the street or at the microphone.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Three. That's the magic number. Yes, it is. It's the magic number. Somewhere in this hip-hop soul community was born three - Mase, Dove and me. And that's the magic number. Difficult preachi"}
{"id": "1196973297", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: De La Soul's Trugoy the Dove and Maseo", "question_index": 5, "text": "What's the range of reactions you got to that first CD, which was filled with humor and irony and - we'll get to this later - with samples from just all kinds of different music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...LL Cool Js and KRS-Ones. And, you know, none of these groups sound anything alike. You know, everyone was doing their own thing. So to step into the game or even try to introduce our game - ourselv"}
{"id": "1196973297", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: De La Soul's Trugoy the Dove and Maseo", "question_index": 6, "text": "Did you think anything was misinterpreted?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "People loved what we did. I mean, I have to honestly say that's my favorite and probably will be the best album that I felt like we've ever done. Like I said, there weren't any boundaries. We were jus"}
{"id": "1196973297", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: De La Soul's Trugoy the Dove and Maseo", "question_index": 7, "text": "I wonder how much of that just came from the design on the album jacket?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the only thing that maybe was misinterpreted that people kept classifying us to be hippies, you know, when we didn't really have an understanding of what that was all about. It was cool..."}
{"id": "1196973297", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: De La Soul's Trugoy the Dove and Maseo", "question_index": 8, "text": "It had, like, daisies on it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1196973297", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: De La Soul's Trugoy the Dove and Maseo", "question_index": 9, "text": "The samples on that first CD included Steely Dan, Liberace, Otis Redding, The Jarmels, who did \"A Little Bit Of Soap.\" \"Stand By Me,\" I think is sampled on it, the Ben E. King record. There's a French language instruction record. How did you know all these records?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that's the only thing that kind of, like, got at us was like, you know, when it came down to publicity and advertising the record, people always wanted us to take pictures with flowers and mak"}
{"id": "1196973297", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: De La Soul's Trugoy the Dove and Maseo", "question_index": 10, "text": "Really", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And my parents were listening to Perry Como, Liberace..."}
{"id": "1196973297", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: De La Soul's Trugoy the Dove and Maseo", "question_index": 11, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And my parents were listening to Perry Como, Liberace..."}
{"id": "1196973297", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: De La Soul's Trugoy the Dove and Maseo", "question_index": 12, "text": "Oh, home of the good guys. Yeah. Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know, a lot of the stuff that was on this popular station called ABC back in the day."}
{"id": "1196973297", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: De La Soul's Trugoy the Dove and Maseo", "question_index": 13, "text": "So these are all records that you really liked, even if you like some of them for being really bad, I mean, for just really being so awful that they were fun?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And the \"Mickey Mouse\" records and, you know, all sorts of kiddie records like that. So just, you know, everybody bringing their force into it made \"3 Feet High And Rising\" what it was."}
{"id": "1196973297", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: De La Soul's Trugoy the Dove and Maseo", "question_index": 14, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. I mean, you're always going to find something. You know, it's not every record. I mean, there are a lot of records that are in our crates that, you know, are just, like, you know, just for o"}
{"id": "1196973297", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: De La Soul's Trugoy the Dove and Maseo", "question_index": 15, "text": "I think we'd better hear the Liberace sample.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I'm not going to sit here and say that I listen to Liberace all day, but, you know. So that introduction was just incredible, you know? And that worked for De La Soul. It was like, you know, that h"}
{"id": "1196973297", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: De La Soul's Trugoy the Dove and Maseo", "question_index": 16, "text": "That's from De La Soul's first CD, \"3 Feet High And Rising.\" My guests are two of the three members of the group - Dave and Mase. And they have a new CD, which is called \"Art Official Intelligence.\" So when you started sampling, I'm wondering if you started shopping for records in a different way than you ever did before, just looking for cool things to put on your own records?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) The first time around, you didn't quite understand our new style of speak. Don't worry. We can fix that right now. So why don't you all just grab your bags. Come on aboard, hoist the anchor "}
{"id": "1196973297", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: De La Soul's Trugoy the Dove and Maseo", "question_index": 17, "text": "Do you mostly go to used record stores and look for vinyl, or do you use CDs for sampling, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What's so funny - the method of shopping for records was kind of, like, really different. I mean, it's like that for a lot of hip-hop artists. We sometimes are clueless of the artist and what music th"}
{"id": "1196973297", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: De La Soul's Trugoy the Dove and Maseo", "question_index": 18, "text": "Now, after your first CD, you were sued by The Turtles for sampling something from one of their records. What was the outcome of the suit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's just - it's always a good feeling, also, to just crack that new plastic and then put something on that turntable and hope that you find the most incredible, you know, horn section or a "}
{"id": "1196973297", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: De La Soul's Trugoy the Dove and Maseo", "question_index": 19, "text": "What impact do you think that suit had on other rappers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was settled out of court. Unfortunately, what happened was the record \"3 Feet High And Rising\" was - there was a demand for it, and the rush was there to get it in stores. And, you know, we turned "}
{"id": "1196973297", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: De La Soul's Trugoy the Dove and Maseo", "question_index": 20, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's..."}
{"id": "1196973297", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: De La Soul's Trugoy the Dove and Maseo", "question_index": 21, "text": "We're listening to my interview with Dave and Mase from the group De La Soul. I spoke to them in 2000. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Huge. And we were a small part of that. I mean, but something that we always respected, I mean, even before the sampling laws came out and as strict as they are now - you know, like I said, \"3 Feet"}
{"id": "1196973297", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: De La Soul's Trugoy the Dove and Maseo", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded in 2000 with two members of De La Soul - Dave, who died earlier this year, and Mase. Here's another track from \"3 Feet High And Rising,\" their first album, which was released in 1989.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Huge. And we were a small part of that. I mean, but something that we always respected, I mean, even before the sampling laws came out and as strict as they are now - you know, like I said, \"3 Feet"}
{"id": "1196973297", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: De La Soul's Trugoy the Dove and Maseo", "question_index": 23, "text": "How do you think your experiences growing up in Amityville, Long Island, which is a suburb of New York, compared to the experiences of some urban rappers who ended up doing more, you know, hardcore kind of raps?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) Greetings, girl, and welcome to my world of phrase. I'm right up to bat. It's a D.A.I.S.Y. age, and you're about to walk top stage. So wipe your Lottos on the map. Hip-hop love this is, and "}
{"id": "1196973297", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: De La Soul's Trugoy the Dove and Maseo", "question_index": 24, "text": "Did you ever go through a phase of trying to pretend like you were from, you know, an inner city background?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, room to breathe, room to get to see different things, you know, go out east and go on pony rides or, you know, go to the farm. Or, you know, you got a chance to see different things. And your mi"}
{"id": "1196973297", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: De La Soul's Trugoy the Dove and Maseo", "question_index": 25, "text": "I'm wondering if either of you had parents who were very political, and not necessarily voting booth politics, but just in terms of having a kind of political, social analysis of class and race in America, and if they talked to you a lot about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, right? And plus, on top of that, I mean, now that we're fathers, you know, Long Island - Long Island is cool. It's not the best as it used to be. But it just motivates me to know if my parents g"}
{"id": "1196973297", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: De La Soul's Trugoy the Dove and Maseo", "question_index": 26, "text": "Well, I want to thank you both so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And those things were more important than, you know, her working a 12-hour shift or what have you, or my mom and my dad trading up on shifts - and, you know, you babysit them, then, while I go a"}
{"id": "1196973297", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "De La Soul", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: De La Soul's Trugoy the Dove and Maseo", "question_index": 27, "text": "Dave and Mase of De La Soul recorded in 2000. Dave Jolicoeur died in February. The following month, De La Soul's music finally became available for streaming and download after legal issues had held it up. Coming up, we'll hear my 2006 interview with the Beastie Boys. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having us."}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's continue our hip-hop history series with the interview I recorded in 2006 with the Beastie Boys, Mike Diamond, Adam Horovitz and Adam Yauch. In 1987, they released \"Licensed To Ill,\" the first hip-hop album to reach No. 1 on the pop charts.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 1, "text": "Mike D, Ad-Rock and MCA, as they're better known, met when they were teenagers in New York City in the early '80s. At first they were a punk band, but they started to incorporate hip-hop into their music, collaborating with Def Jam Records co-founders Rick Rubin and Russell Simmons. Early on, they were dismissed by some as a novelty act for suburban MTV fans, three white, privileged kids swilling beer on stage, fighting for their right to party. But they turned out to be smarter than they first appeared, getting critical acclaim for their clever, playful lyrics and inventive layered sampling. They also became more political. They staged the Tibetan Freedom Concert in 1996 and supported anti-violence and anti-war campaigns. They also apologized for the misogyny of their early lyrics. The Beastie Boys recorded and performed for decades until the death of Adam Yauch in 2012. When we spoke in 2006, they had released a new concert film. Let's start with a track from their 1992 album, \"Check Your Head.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Brass Monkey, that funky Monkey, Brass Monkey junkie, that funky Monkey. Brass - got this dance that's more than real. Drink Brass Monkey. Here's how you feel."}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 2, "text": "Beastie Boys, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) Well, just plug me in just like I was Eddie Harris. You're eating crazy cheese like you would think I'm from Paris. You know I get fly. You think I get high. You know that I'm gone, and I'ma"}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hey, hey."}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 4, "text": "What's it like now to sing things that you wrote, you know, 20, 25 years ago, when you were much younger? You've changed a lot over the years. Do the lyrics still fit you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So..."}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 5, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A little awkward at times. It's a bit awkward."}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 6, "text": "Have you revised any lyrics that you're no longer comfortable with, lyrics from...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Some of them are dumb, but, yeah, it's just fun, you know? It's - sometimes it's fun to just play the old songs anyway, no matter how stupid they are."}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 7, "text": "Can you give us an example of something you've changed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it's not that often that we plan it ahead of time. It's just sort of, like, while we're doing the song, as the thing comes up, I'm like, oh, snap. This next lyric is going to come up, and it's"}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 8, "text": "Now, you started off as a punk band. What - how did you switch from punk to rap?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I don't even know what - yeah, if we could. But I just particularly like that because it kind of really reflects where we're at now."}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 9, "text": "Your first hit was \"Fight For Your Right.\" And, Adam Yauch, in the liner notes of a best-of collection, you write that the song began as a goof and that it started as a satire of \"I Want To Rock\" kind of songs. So what did you have in mind when you wrote that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, yeah, when it was just called rap, I guess. So we were, like, kind of - I mean, we used to listen to that all the time, too. And we were into rhyming and, like, learning the rhymes on those record"}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 10, "text": "Let me play the record, and then we'll talk about it a little bit more.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, basically that. I think you summed it up. It was just kind of, like, just one of those, like, \"Smokin' In The Boys Room\" type things. I just thought it was kind of funny. But I don't think we re"}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 11, "text": "And this is the Beastie Boys' \"Fight For Your Right.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Fantastic."}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 12, "text": "So - OK, so this is, like, your first big single, really big hit. And you're saying it started out kind of as a goof. So did your fans misunderstand who you were?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) Yeah. Kick it. You wake up late for school. Man, you don't want to go. You ask your mom please, but she still says no. You missed two classes and no homework. But your teacher preaches class"}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 13, "text": "You know, we were talking earlier about going from punk to hip-hop. So I don't imagine you had a big, you know, frat boy audience for your band when you were playing punk.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then that was us."}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 14, "text": "Adam, in those liner notes, you write, by drinking so much beer and acting like sexist, macho jerks, we actually became just that. So did you feel like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We never did when we were punk. And then also when we were playing hip-hop, like, what we came out of by hooking up with Russell, we actually - we had a - we got, like, a really good education in term"}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 15, "text": "Did you feel like you were becoming the image that you created?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I never said that."}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 16, "text": "So was there a point where you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's kind of like when you go to England and you do a British accent the whole time, and then you come home and you have a fake British accent."}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yeah. Was there a point where...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know what I mean?"}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 18, "text": "No", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know what I mean?"}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 19, "text": ". Was there a point where you said to yourselves, we crossed the line, we've become our own parody?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know what I mean?"}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 20, "text": "And so what changed when you had that realization?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Definitely. But I don't - I think the point - that point almost came - like, we had to kind of get off of tour and almost have a second away from that to sort of assess and realize - look where everyt"}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep."}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 22, "text": "Which was very different from the - which, I think, some fans loved and some fans felt disappointed because it was a departure. What was different about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then we made \"Paul's Boutique.\""}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 23, "text": "We're listening back to my 2006 interview with the Beastie Boys - Mike Diamond, Adam Horovitz and Adam Yauch. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They got - in a different meaning of the word."}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded in 2006 with the Beastie Boys - Mike Diamond, Adam Horovitz and the late Adam Yauch. Here's a track from their second album, \"Paul's Boutique,\" which was released in 1989.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They got - in a different meaning of the word."}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 25, "text": "You do a lot of raps where you basically pass off the mic to one another, a lot of, like, alternating rapping. So do you each write your own parts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) Now, I rock a house party at the drop of a hat, yeah. I beat a biter down with an aluminum bat. A lot of people, they be jonesing just to hear me rock the mic. They'll be staring at the radi"}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 26, "text": "What comes first - you know, people always ask songwriters, what comes first, the music or the lyrics? What comes first for you? Is it, like, the words or the samples?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "On some stuff. There are some songs, like \"So What'cha Want\" style where we're writing our own parts and singing our own parts. But there are other songs like \"Hold It Now\" or \"Shake Your Rump\" or tha"}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 27, "text": "So you're in the same room when you're doing this, you're together?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Chip away at it."}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 28, "text": "When you started sampling records, you know, after you started rapping, did you start listening to music differently, knowing that if you really loved, you know, a rhythm that you could use it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 29, "text": "Now, I think it's \"Superfly\" that you sample on \"Egg Man.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, you just start thinking about looping right away."}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 30, "text": "It must have been kind of cool to, you know, take that soundtrack and kind of make it your soundtrack. Do you know what I mean? Like, who wouldn't want", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 31, "text": ", like, a soundtrack like that? Do you know what I mean? I mean, to me, when... Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 32, "text": "We're listening to my interview with the Beastie Boys - Mike Diamond, Adam Horovitz and the late Adam Yauch. I spoke to them in 2006, when they released a new concert film. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, like, there's a moment I love in a remix that we put together of - we got a Black Flag guitar playing on top of a \"Funky Drummer,\" James Brown beat that - it's just cool that you have these diff"}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 33, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're celebrating the 50th anniversary of hip-hop with interviews from our archive. Let's get back to my 2006 interview with the Beastie Boys, Mike Diamond, Adam Horovitz and the late Adam Yauch. You each come from families with pretty interesting artistic backgrounds. So if we could go around and if you could each talk a little bit about how, if at all, your parents' kind of artistic inclinations affected you when you were coming of age and developing your own artistic sensibility? Adam Horovitz, let's start with you. I mean, your father's a...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, like, there's a moment I love in a remix that we put together of - we got a Black Flag guitar playing on top of a \"Funky Drummer,\" James Brown beat that - it's just cool that you have these diff"}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 34, "text": "...Pretty well-known playwright Israel Horovitz.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 35, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 36, "text": "Michael Diamond, your parents were in interior design. Do I have that right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I grew up - my dad - every time I was with my dad, he was always - not always, but he wrote. He's a writer, so he was always in his office, writing. He made a plan, like a point of, this is my work. I"}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 37, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my dad was a - was actually involved with the art world. He was an art dealer."}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 38, "text": "So what were they listening to that you loved?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so - yeah. I don't know. For me, I'd just say my influences, I had two things. One was I was - the biggest thing for me, I was the youngest of three brothers. So growing up here in Manhattan, in N"}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 39, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, whatever. That transition - I mean, that went from, like, stealing my brother's, you know, Steve Miller \"Fly Like An Eagle\" album..."}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 40, "text": "Adam Yauch, your father's an architect. Do I have that right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But, you know, if you're going to, like, an opening or - you know, all the time there were, like - you'd have, like, whatever creative people kind of coming in and out. And I think, like, I learned as"}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 41, "text": "What influence has that had on you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Google him."}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 42, "text": "Did you ever expect that the Beastie Boys would be together for 25 years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wouldn't worry about it."}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 43, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. We were in high school. It wasn't like, OK, we're going to take over the world and do this for our whole lifetimes. I mean, I do think - I find it's funny. I think in the last, like - I'd say ab"}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 44, "text": "How did you think of your name?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's true."}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 45, "text": "How did you think of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You want to give any shout-outs to Hester or any other family, Mike? What's up?"}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 46, "text": "...The name?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No?"}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 47, "text": "When you look at the history of hip-hop - and you know the history of hip-hop pretty well - where do you see yourselves fitting in? Like, when you think of the Beastie Boys, what do you think of as being, like, your main place in or contribution to hip-hop?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Angry Samoans is a good name. Yeah."}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 48, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm kind of the weird uncle; aren't I?"}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 49, "text": "So what's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "See; the kid looks at me like I'm the weird uncle."}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 50, "text": "What makes...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's how it is."}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 51, "text": "What makes you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess. I guess."}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 52, "text": "So what makes...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Save me the tuchus stuff."}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 53, "text": "...You compare the Beastie Boys to a weird uncle?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 54, "text": "Well, thank you so much for talking with us. Thanks.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I like that."}
{"id": "1196985977", "date": "2023-08-31", "guest": "Beastie Boys", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Beastie Boys", "question_index": 55, "text": "The Beastie Boys, Mike Diamond, Adam Horovitz and Adam Yauch, recorded in 2006. Adam Yauch died in 2012 at the age of 47. Tomorrow we'll continue our hip-hop history series with my interviews with RZA from the Wu-Tang Clan and Andre Benjamin, aka Andre 3000 from Outkast. I hope you'll join us. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavey-Nesper. Therese Madden directed today's show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1197210646", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Wu-Tang Clan's RZA", "question_index": 0, "text": "That's the Wu-Tang Clan. My guest is the RZA. Welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) I grew up on the crime side, The New York Times side. Staying alive was no jive. Had second hands, Mom's bounced on old man. So then we moved to Shaolin land. A young youth, yo, rockin' the "}
{"id": "1197210646", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Wu-Tang Clan's RZA", "question_index": 1, "text": "Now, you know, in addition to being, you know, an MC and to being one of the rappers with Wu-Tang Clan, you were also the chief producer and arranger. Can you talk a little bit about, you know, composing and sampling the music backing for the records, what your approach is to that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thanks for having me on the show, y'all."}
{"id": "1197210646", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Wu-Tang Clan's RZA", "question_index": 2, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my musical knowledge really came from being a DJ. You know, at the age of 11, I got my first pair of turntables - straight-arm Technics - you know what I mean? - the hardest ones that you could "}
{"id": "1197210646", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Wu-Tang Clan's RZA", "question_index": 3, "text": "So were you - you know, since you had such a wide variety of musical records that you were drawing from, were any of those records things that you first heard from your parents' record collections?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And then mix that in with some kind of classical. So I was a kind of DJ that would do that. When I would DJ at parties, you know, when I would interlude between records, I may throw on a \"Peter Pan"}
{"id": "1197210646", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Wu-Tang Clan's RZA", "question_index": 4, "text": "So what was in...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, guaranteed. I mean, you know, everything started from what our parents had, of course."}
{"id": "1197210646", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Wu-Tang Clan's RZA", "question_index": 5, "text": "...Your parents' collection?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then for me..."}
{"id": "1197210646", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Wu-Tang Clan's RZA", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my parents had all the soul records from - you know, from - well, I lived - I had a single mother most of the time. But from The Crusaders to The O'Jays to The Delfonics to The Temptations - you k"}
{"id": "1197210646", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Wu-Tang Clan's RZA", "question_index": 7, "text": "Let's talk a little bit about how you started composing, because, you know, you first were - you were DJing, basically. You were sampling things from records and playing records under raps, but you actually compose now. So how did you make that transition?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I went to Inspectah Deck's house, and his mother had a whole closet full of old records that she gave me. Ghostface's mom's - I mean, people would out - being in New York City in the Village just sell"}
{"id": "1197210646", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Wu-Tang Clan's RZA", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, let's hear \"Triumph\" from \"Wu-Tang Forever.\" Here it is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was pretty - something that came to being, I think, around 1995, '96. You know, I had a few platinum records under my belt already. I was getting - you know, getting worldwide recognition and rea"}
{"id": "1197210646", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Wu-Tang Clan's RZA", "question_index": 9, "text": "That's \"Triumph\" From the album \"Wu-Tang Forever.\" And my guest is the RZA of the Wu-Tang Clan, also a solo artist. You know, you do something on some of your music that I think you call a detuned piano. And listening to it, I never knew whether it was an electric piano or what, but it has this really distinctive sound. And - in fact, I want to play something from the Jim Jarmusch movie \"Ghost Dog: The Way Of The Samurai.\" And you did the score for this movie. And it's really...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) I bomb atomically. Socrates' philosophies and hypotheses can't define how I be dropping these mockeries, lyrically perform armed robbery. Flee with the lottery, possibly they spotted me. Bat"}
{"id": "1197210646", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Wu-Tang Clan's RZA", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yeah. And it's really wonderful. Let me play the theme from it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That was my first score."}
{"id": "1197210646", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Wu-Tang Clan's RZA", "question_index": 11, "text": "That's music from the Jim Jarmusch movie \"Ghost Dog: The Way...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That was my first score."}
{"id": "1197210646", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Wu-Tang Clan's RZA", "question_index": 12, "text": "...Of The Samurai,\" composed by my guest, the RZA. What are you doing on that? What's the keyboard that we're hearing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Ghost Dog.\""}
{"id": "1197210646", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Wu-Tang Clan's RZA", "question_index": 13, "text": "Morbidity, did you say? Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The keyboard I use for \"Ghost Dog\" - I use a combination, but I use mostly - it's a keyboard called the Kurzweil 2500. And there's another keyboard called the Ensoniq ASR-10. And the ASR-10 is a sampl"}
{"id": "1197210646", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Wu-Tang Clan's RZA", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, there's something very eerie about the theme.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1197210646", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Wu-Tang Clan's RZA", "question_index": 15, "text": "What...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's what I mean. I think - I meant eerie, then, if morbid and eerie don't mean to same thing."}
{"id": "1197210646", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Wu-Tang Clan's RZA", "question_index": 16, "text": "No.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Do they mean the same thing, morbid..."}
{"id": "1197210646", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Wu-Tang Clan's RZA", "question_index": 17, "text": "Well, eerie is kind of mysterious, and morbid has to do with death. But I think it's both, because the movie has a lot to do with death.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And eerie?"}
{"id": "1197210646", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Wu-Tang Clan's RZA", "question_index": 18, "text": "Yeah. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Well, I'll say eerie, then, and morbid because I wanted to be like - you know, to capture, you know, the spirituality of the bird, but also to capture, like, the internal of Ghost Dog, you know"}
{"id": "1197210646", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Wu-Tang Clan's RZA", "question_index": 19, "text": "So you used the word detuned. What do you mean by detuned, and what is detuned in the music we just heard?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's a very troubled individual, really."}
{"id": "1197210646", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Wu-Tang Clan's RZA", "question_index": 20, "text": "And I think one of the reasons why that works when you do it is 'cause you're often using, like, one-note lines.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, when the piano gets old - right? - and it sits in your studio for a long time, it becomes detuned, meaning, you know, all the notes are maybe - not a half step or maybe a one-eighth of"}
{"id": "1197210646", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Wu-Tang Clan's RZA", "question_index": 21, "text": "So there aren't, like, chords that you're playing, 'cause the chords might sound really raggy, but that single-note line, it works really well.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "1197210646", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Wu-Tang Clan's RZA", "question_index": 22, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It carries out (ph)."}
{"id": "1197210646", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Wu-Tang Clan's RZA", "question_index": 23, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, 'cause it's like a person that sings that doesn't really - that's vocal trained. You know, he'll be able to sing and give you all the feelings he want to give you, but he may not be able to sing"}
{"id": "1197210646", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Wu-Tang Clan's RZA", "question_index": 24, "text": "You've had several personas over the years. I mean, your birth name is Robert Diggs. You're known as the RZA. That's a name you took when you co-founded the Wu-Tang Clan. You're also Bobby Digital. And early in your career, you were Prince Rakeem. So let's start with Prince Rakeem. I mean, who - what did you see that persona as being? The music that you made with him is different from Wu-Tang.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're commemorating the 50th anniversary of hip-hop music this week. Let's get back to Terry's 2005 interview with RZA, who co-founded the Wu-Tang Clan."}
{"id": "1197210646", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Wu-Tang Clan's RZA", "question_index": 25, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would say so. With Prince Rakeem - you know what I mean? - I was basically more of a student in the studies of life, shall I say, and as well as definitely a student to the music and the music indus"}
{"id": "1197210646", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Wu-Tang Clan's RZA", "question_index": 26, "text": "Why don't we hear a 1991 record that you made as Prince Rakeem. And this is \"Ooh I Love You Rakeem.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wouldn't touch my food without a napkin and, you know, walked like Mr. Spock - had my hands behind my back. I used to walk very straight up and very elegant, you know what I mean? That's how I felt, y"}
{"id": "1197210646", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Wu-Tang Clan's RZA", "question_index": 27, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no. OK, let's go for it. Come on."}
{"id": "1197210646", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Wu-Tang Clan's RZA", "question_index": 28, "text": "OK, so let's move from Prince Rakeem to the RZA. How does the RZA compare to Prince Rakeem?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) It seems I'm a fiend for a sex routine. Love to hear them scream, ooh, Rakeem. And my response is, oh. Always satisfy them - you know how I flow. With sex, I'm not lazy. I'm buck wild and cr"}
{"id": "1197210646", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Wu-Tang Clan's RZA", "question_index": 29, "text": "And after the five years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when I came with Wu-Tang Clan and the first single was called \"Protect Ya Neck.\" And you'll notice in the video, it's like exit Prince Rakeem and enter the RZA, because it was no time for me to "}
{"id": "1197210646", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Wu-Tang Clan's RZA", "question_index": 30, "text": "Well, I really want to thank you so much for talking with us. I really appreciate it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, after the five years, which - I basically had took that name in 1992. And then by 1997, my idea was I would be on the top, you know, that - you know, musically. You know, and what I stood for wo"}
{"id": "1197212691", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Outkast's Andr\u00e9 3000", "question_index": 0, "text": "Now, you said you wanted to, like, branch out from rapping because rapping's a young man's game. And one of the things you've been doing lately is acting. And you starred - along with Big Boi, Andre Patton (ph) from Outkast, you starred in the film \"Idlewild,\" which is set in a Georgia speakeasy, you know, during Prohibition. And you're the piano player at the speakeasy. And even though it's the kind of speakeasy at which fights are constantly breaking out, the production numbers in it are as lavish as if it were the Cotton Club of Harlem. ANDRE 3000: Ah. Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)"}
{"id": "1197212691", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Outkast's Andr\u00e9 3000", "question_index": 1, "text": "And I thought we could hear - before we talk more about the movie, I thought we could hear the song that, in the movie, is the production number that plays at the very end of the film behind the closed credit music. ANDRE 3000: \"PJ And Rooster.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)"}
{"id": "1197212691", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Outkast's Andr\u00e9 3000", "question_index": 2, "text": "And you're at the piano in this at the start in a beautiful, like, tuxedo. And then you leave the piano to, like, sing and dance. And there are scantily clad chorus line of dancers behind you and there's stairways with dancers going up and down the stairs, like in the old production numbers. ANDRE 3000: Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)"}
{"id": "1197212691", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Outkast's Andr\u00e9 3000", "question_index": 3, "text": "So this is a fantastic song. Let's hear it, and then we'll talk.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED NPR BROADCAST)"}
{"id": "1197212691", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Outkast's Andr\u00e9 3000", "question_index": 4, "text": "That's Andre Benjamin from the film \"Idlewild.\" Is this the kind of song that you would have written yourself if it wasn't for this movie? ANDRE 3000: Yes and no. Believe it or not, that song is about six years old.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Ain't nobody like my style. Yeah. I light my fire. Yeah. I light - ba, ba (ph). I light - ba, ba. They blow it out. Yeah. They blew it out. They blow it out. And don't nobody want to feel li"}
{"id": "1197212691", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Outkast's Andr\u00e9 3000", "question_index": 5, "text": "Really? ANDRE 3000: And yeah. Originally, it was a guitar-based song, and it was kind of just me and the beat playing a guitar. And I had some of the lyrics even five years ago. And when we were doing this movie, I thought it worked perfectly. And so I had to change the production a little bit and make it more piano-based because electric guitars - I mean, they were invented back then, but they weren't really where they are now. And I added a second and third verse. And Big Boy, you know, came on and put his thing on it, make it what it is now. So, yes, I mean, even the lyric, you know, ain't nobody like my style, you know, I light my fire; they blow it out - you know, that was something that Andre 3000 was actually feeling, you know, five years ago before the movie came about. So it just so happened that when the movie came around, Percival was going through the same thing that Andre 3000 was going through. So it made total sense. And just the singing style was different because the way I sang it before - it wouldn't work for 1930. So, you know, by listening to a lot of Cab Calloway things, you know, it was like, big voice, big throat, like, huge production, horns, you know? And so I just made it into what it is now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Ain't nobody like my style. Yeah. I light my fire. Yeah. I light - ba, ba (ph). I light - ba, ba. They blow it out. Yeah. They blew it out. They blow it out. And don't nobody want to feel li"}
{"id": "1197212691", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Outkast's Andr\u00e9 3000", "question_index": 6, "text": "I love the way you talk about Andre 3000 as if he were a person that you knew, you know? ANDRE 3000: Well, I know him sometimes, you know? He change, though.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Ain't nobody like my style. Yeah. I light my fire. Yeah. I light - ba, ba (ph). I light - ba, ba. They blow it out. Yeah. They blew it out. They blow it out. And don't nobody want to feel li"}
{"id": "1197212691", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Outkast's Andr\u00e9 3000", "question_index": 7, "text": "He's your persona for the band Outkast. So how do you see Andre 3000 as compared to yourself, Andre Benjamin? ANDRE 3000: I guess if you can imagine, like, if you're a kid and you're in the mirror and you're playing dress-up and you're this other character and as soon as your mom walks in, you change back into that person - and so Andre Benjamin was the kid that sat there and say, hey. What can I play? And he's in the mirror, and he's putting on his cowboy and Indian suit. Once he puts on his outfits or once - you know, once he starts to play and get into his kind of fun head, he's Andre 3000, you know? So Andre 3000 is that character within Outkast that kind of just goes there and has a ball, you know, does his thing. Andre Benjamin is, you know, the person that goes to Whole Foods, you know, that goes to the mall, you know, goes to the dry cleaners, you know, pumps gas. You know, that's my mama name. My mama gave me that name - Andre Lauren Benjamin.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Ain't nobody like my style. Yeah. I light my fire. Yeah. I light - ba, ba (ph). I light - ba, ba. They blow it out. Yeah. They blew it out. They blow it out. And don't nobody want to feel li"}
{"id": "1197212691", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Outkast's Andr\u00e9 3000", "question_index": 8, "text": "And where does the 3000 come from? ANDRE 3000: Around 1999, right before it was, you know, about to turn into 2000, you know, the whole world was going crazy. Oh, man, my computers are going to change over. And they're going, we're all going to die. And, you know, everything's going to go kaput. And so 3000 actually means the year 3000, you know, 3000 A.D. kind of to look ahead and to to keep myself excited. So the 3000 was tacked on to Andre because I have a kind of like a personality where I get bored really fast, so I have to find stuff to keep myself interested. And that's where the cowboys and Indians come in.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Ain't nobody like my style. Yeah. I light my fire. Yeah. I light - ba, ba (ph). I light - ba, ba. They blow it out. Yeah. They blew it out. They blow it out. And don't nobody want to feel li"}
{"id": "1197212691", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Outkast's Andr\u00e9 3000", "question_index": 9, "text": "Now, you know, the music that you were that you wrote for \"Idlewild\" or that you changed for for \"Idlewild\" draws on music - a lot of different kinds of music, you know, like funk and hip-hop but also early jazz. Did working on that movie expose you to music that you otherwise might not have listened to? ANDRE 3000: Of course. You know, growing up, I mean, I've always, you know, heard '30s and '40s music, but it was always, you know, in some other picture. It was always kind of, like, background music. Like, I can't say that I just ride around listening to 1930s, '40s music. I think the quality and the production, you know, is kind of different from what I'm used to right now. So when preparing for the role for Percival in \"Idlewild,\" I had to go meet morticians. You know, I had to go to funeral homes to actually see how these people live, talk to them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Ain't nobody like my style. Yeah. I light my fire. Yeah. I light - ba, ba (ph). I light - ba, ba. They blow it out. Yeah. They blew it out. They blow it out. And don't nobody want to feel li"}
{"id": "1197212691", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Outkast's Andr\u00e9 3000", "question_index": 10, "text": "He plays a mortician. That's why. Yeah. ANDRE 3000: Yeah. Yes, yes. I play a mortician in \"Idlewild.\" So in preparing for the role, I had to go talk to morticians and had to sit down and ask them about their life. And I also had to get into the time frame of what was going on. So I watched a couple of movies from, you know, the '30s, '40s era, you know, things like \"Casablanca,\" a lot of Busby Berkeley movies, \"Stormy Weather,\" you know, things of that nature. And I listened to a lot of music and mainly Cab Calloway. And it's funny because if you listen to Cab Calloway's music, he was actually rapping back in those times. But the sounds, you know, the big band sound, is - I was introduced to it by the by the movie because I was never into it. So just to hear that kind of instrumentation, even though in Outkast's music, I've been producing songs that had, you know, horns before and, you know, those sounds, I mean, it's the arrangements, you know? So it's the horn blast, and it's the way that the parts are written that are different. So every song wasn't, like, this huge big band song. I mean, some of them had beats to them. You know, some of them had - I guess the stylings were kind of a funky version of 1930s.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Ain't nobody like my style. Yeah. I light my fire. Yeah. I light - ba, ba (ph). I light - ba, ba. They blow it out. Yeah. They blew it out. They blow it out. And don't nobody want to feel li"}
{"id": "1197212691", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Outkast's Andr\u00e9 3000", "question_index": 11, "text": "Now, you're a character who is this kind of shy piano player at the speakeasy, says about having to play there when he's forced into the spotlight during one scene - he says, I hate the spotlight. And I can't imagine you ever saying you hate the spotlight. You seem to just love performing so much and seem to have these kind of, like, old-style show business values of loving to, like, sing and dance with costumes. ANDRE 3000: That's where the cowboys and Indians come in.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Ain't nobody like my style. Yeah. I light my fire. Yeah. I light - ba, ba (ph). I light - ba, ba. They blow it out. Yeah. They blew it out. They blow it out. And don't nobody want to feel li"}
{"id": "1197212691", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Outkast's Andr\u00e9 3000", "question_index": 12, "text": "Right", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Ain't nobody like my style. Yeah. I light my fire. Yeah. I light - ba, ba (ph). I light - ba, ba. They blow it out. Yeah. They blew it out. They blow it out. And don't nobody want to feel li"}
{"id": "1197212691", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Outkast's Andr\u00e9 3000", "question_index": 13, "text": ". ANDRE 3000: Once again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Ain't nobody like my style. Yeah. I light my fire. Yeah. I light - ba, ba (ph). I light - ba, ba. They blow it out. Yeah. They blew it out. They blow it out. And don't nobody want to feel li"}
{"id": "1197212691", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Outkast's Andr\u00e9 3000", "question_index": 14, "text": "Yeah. ANDRE 3000: It's funny because when Bryan - Bryan Barber, who's the director and writer of \"Idlewild\" - I've known him...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Ain't nobody like my style. Yeah. I light my fire. Yeah. I light - ba, ba (ph). I light - ba, ba. They blow it out. Yeah. They blew it out. They blow it out. And don't nobody want to feel li"}
{"id": "1197212691", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Outkast's Andr\u00e9 3000", "question_index": 15, "text": "Who also directed your your \"Hey Ya!\" video. ANDRE 3000: Right. And \"Roses\" and a couple of others. But, you know, I've known Bryan since he was in film school in Atlanta at Clark. And, you know, he'd come to parties. And, you know, he'd say, hey, man, I want you to be in my movie. And this is when we first came out. And he said, hey, I want you in this movie. Check out this script. Or, you know, let's get down - let's get together and, you know, just come up with some ideas or whatever. So Bryan has known me for a long time. He's known me. He's known Big Boi for a long time. So when we were putting this movie together, he knows our personalities that a lot of people don't know. You know, and it's funny you say that I seem like, OK, I love to jump on stage, and I love to, you know, do the whole Hollywood - I love to sing and love to dance and love the spotlight and love to pose. And that's kind of not true. You know, It's kind of - I started doing music because I liked to do it, and I didn't know what I was getting into. So when he says, you know, I'm forced into a situation, I'm not really forced into it, but I kind of painted myself into a corner where I have to do it. But I do like to do music. But a lot of things that come along with it, you know, I'm not really a fan of. I just like to do great work. I like to create stuff. So be it music, film, whatever, you know, if the end product is good, you know, I'm loving it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Ain't nobody like my style. Yeah. I light my fire. Yeah. I light - ba, ba (ph). I light - ba, ba. They blow it out. Yeah. They blew it out. They blow it out. And don't nobody want to feel li"}
{"id": "1197212691", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Outkast's Andr\u00e9 3000", "question_index": 16, "text": "One of the things that you have to learn as an actor is how to project vulnerability 'cause there are roles you're going to play in which you're vulnerable. And that's certainly the case in some scenes in \"Idlewild,\" for example. And vulnerability is, in some ways, exactly the kind of thing that a lot of rappers try to not express, rappers on the whole. I mean, I think a lot of wrappers try to look - try to maintain a very tough and hardened persona. ANDRE 3000: Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. And we're commemorating the 50th anniversary of hip-hop with Terry's 2006 interview with Andre 3000 of Outkast."}
{"id": "1197212691", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Outkast's Andr\u00e9 3000", "question_index": 17, "text": "So I'm wondering, was there a transition for you of exposing more vulnerability both in your music and in your acting? ANDRE 3000: Yeah, yeah. I think, I mean, not just in rap, I mean, in life, period. I mean, when I started off, I mean, we were just, you know, straight street rappers, you know? And I do understand where it comes from. I mean, a lot of actors have a heart. A lot of music guys or rappers have a hard time, you know, getting rid of this character that they've built up, you know, their whole career. And I don't think it's a thing of, you know, them pretending or trying to be hard to put on. But it's like the street life - it won't allow you to show, you know, that soft side because, I mean, you'll get trampled, you know, just in the street. And so you have to - you have to kind of toughen up or man up in a certain kind of way. And if you built your whole career on letting people know, you know, that I don't play and you have to get into a character that does play or that does let other emotions come out, I mean, that may be a hard step, but even before I started doing film, I mean, in life, I mean, I knew I had to take my music other places because, once again, I got bored of doing the same thing, so I got deeper and deeper into my music. And when I got deeper and deeper into my music, I mean, I had to expose certain sides of myself. And even when you look at \"Speakerboxxx\" and \"The Love Below,\" the love below was just that. That was the meaning of \"The Love Below.\" I mean, like, on the top of a man, I mean, you have this kind of hard shell or this kind of - you know, I'm tough, and nothing can hurt me. But the love below is those feelings that every man feels when he goes home, you know, and he thinks about these things, you know, and he thinks about his life. He thinks about his woman. He thinks about his kid. And - I mean, and there's no room to be tough there, you know? So that's what \"The Love Below\" is about. So when it came time to act, it wasn't that much of a step because I knew that you have to - to be an actor, I mean, you can't act. I mean, that's the key. Once you act, people can see you acting, and that's not good, you know? I talked to Mark Wahlberg, who kind of - you know, I think he's done the transition the best, you know, where people actually consider him more an actor than a music guy, you know? And he said, man, I had to - and he's from the hardest parts of Boston. And he said, man, I had to make a point where I was like, man, I'm going - am I going to put on for my homeboys in the neighborhood, or am I going to go out here and just do what I have to do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. And we're commemorating the 50th anniversary of hip-hop with Terry's 2006 interview with Andre 3000 of Outkast."}
{"id": "1197212691", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Outkast's Andr\u00e9 3000", "question_index": 18, "text": "Well, OK, so you were saying that, you know, in your CD, \"The Love Below\" - that that means the person - like, the person beneath the tough veneer and the emotions beyond that tough exterior. ANDRE 3000: Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. And we're commemorating the 50th anniversary of hip-hop with Terry's 2006 interview with Andre 3000 of Outkast."}
{"id": "1197212691", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Outkast's Andr\u00e9 3000", "question_index": 19, "text": "So let me play, like, the really big hit from this, which is \"Hey Ya!,\" your song. And, I mean, this song is, like, so much fun. And I guess fun is one of the things that would not be good if you're trying to have that really tough exterior, yes? ANDRE 3000: Yeah. And it's funny you say that because in the \"Hey Ya!\" video, I mean, I had a lot of fun doing it. And you can see a lot of smiles, you know? And I got a lot of feedback from just that alone. You know, a lot of DJs and a lot of people on the street - they were like, man, that's cool. But, like, I ain't seen a rapper smile in a long time, you know? And I think smiling is powerful, you know? I mean, I think - I mean, come on. God gave you teeth. He gave you lips. He gave you emotions. Come on. Smile now. I mean, you ain't tough 24/7. You know, that's just not true if you want to keep it real. Now, that's keeping it real.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. And we're commemorating the 50th anniversary of hip-hop with Terry's 2006 interview with Andre 3000 of Outkast."}
{"id": "1197212691", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Outkast's Andr\u00e9 3000", "question_index": 20, "text": "Well, before we hear \"Hey Ya!,\" would you just talk a little bit about putting this together, like, writing the song? You play all of the instruments except bass on it, I think. ANDRE 3000: Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. And we're commemorating the 50th anniversary of hip-hop with Terry's 2006 interview with Andre 3000 of Outkast."}
{"id": "1197212691", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Outkast's Andr\u00e9 3000", "question_index": 21, "text": "So can you talk about, like, conceiving the record and, you know, conceiving the song and then the music happening behind the song? ANDRE 3000: With \"Hey Ya!,\" that song was three years old before the public heard it. So a lot of times, like, I'll start a song, just a rough idea, and I'll move on to something else. And the song was just not ready for the people at the time. Sometimes it takes, you know, just that time to incubate or whatever. And so when I was working on \"The Love Below,\" I had a theme in my head, you know? It was about love. It was about emotions. So even when people are listening to \"Hey Ya!\" and dancing around and, you know, they think it's crazy and they think it's fun, if you really pay attention to the lyrics, it's really a pretty dark song, you know? So it has that kind of, I guess - what do you call it? - that dichotomy, that kind of - it's dark on one end, and it's light on the other end. But when putting it together, it was pretty much just me at home with my guitar, and I was playing these chords over and over and over again. I'm not a great guitar player, so these were some of the first chords that I ever learned. And, you know, during that time, you know, I was into a lot of garage, a lot of punk music. And I was just going for it. And so this was my interpretation of what I thought those sounds were. And the lyrics - usually they start from me messing around on my guitar playing, and I'll just start to kind of baby talk lyrics, you know? And I usually record myself on a micro cassette recorder. And so, you know, I'll be, (singing inaudibly), you know? And then I'll listen to it back and damn near translate what I'm saying, you know? Like, I almost have to decode my yippity-yap (ph), and that's what comes out, you know? My baby don't mess around because she loves me so. You know, and that's what came out, and it just starts to make sense after a while. And then I came back three years later working on the \"Speakerboxxx/Love Below\" album and came back with the second verse. And then the, you know, Polaroid part - you know, that was kind of just a freestyle actually, in the studio. And Beyonce's video was on the screen when I was doing the song. I forget which video it was, but I thought it was an amazing video. And she was showing plenty of attitude. And so that's how she crept her way into the song. You know, when it says, now all the Beyonces and Lucy Lius, those were actually commercials or scenes that were on the TV when I was in the vocal booth. And they crept their way into into the song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. And we're commemorating the 50th anniversary of hip-hop with Terry's 2006 interview with Andre 3000 of Outkast."}
{"id": "1197212691", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Outkast's Andr\u00e9 3000", "question_index": 22, "text": "So you're describing how you speak in almost, you know, like, baby talk when you were first... ANDRE 3000: Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. And we're commemorating the 50th anniversary of hip-hop with Terry's 2006 interview with Andre 3000 of Outkast."}
{"id": "1197212691", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Outkast's Andr\u00e9 3000", "question_index": 23, "text": "...Writing the melody for the song. Is the hey ya part of the original baby talk? ANDRE 3000: Yeah. I'm trying to remember. Hey ya - yes. Yes. And that's probably why it's hey ya - because I really didn't have any words. So you just - hey ya, you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. And we're commemorating the 50th anniversary of hip-hop with Terry's 2006 interview with Andre 3000 of Outkast."}
{"id": "1197212691", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Outkast's Andr\u00e9 3000", "question_index": 24, "text": "Well, it works; doesn't it", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. And we're commemorating the 50th anniversary of hip-hop with Terry's 2006 interview with Andre 3000 of Outkast."}
{"id": "1197212691", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Outkast's Andr\u00e9 3000", "question_index": 25, "text": "? ANDRE 3000: And then you fine-tune it, and you know it's saying, hey ya. You kind of - it's kind of like really listening to another language. And then you listen back to it and say, OK, now what is he saying? What is he saying? And then you make it out. You know, you're being a translator. And that's what happens. A lot of people get the song mistake, and they say, oh, man, I love that \"Hey Now\" song. Like, well, it's Hey Ya!\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. And we're commemorating the 50th anniversary of hip-hop with Terry's 2006 interview with Andre 3000 of Outkast."}
{"id": "1197212691", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Outkast's Andr\u00e9 3000", "question_index": 26, "text": "Well, here it is. And this is Andre Benjamin from the Outkast album \"Speakerboxxx/The Love Below.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. And we're commemorating the 50th anniversary of hip-hop with Terry's 2006 interview with Andre 3000 of Outkast."}
{"id": "1197212691", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Outkast's Andr\u00e9 3000", "question_index": 27, "text": "We were talking before about how as a rapper, a lot of people have a very kind of tough image and that you kind of have to if you live in tough neighborhoods. Otherwise, people are going to take advantage of you. One of the things that you do is you design clothes, and you wear a lot of very kind of extravagant theatrical clothes, you know, on stage and in videos, in movies. And I'm wondering how that fits in with, like, the tough exterior that you needed to have when you were growing up. Did you wear theatrical clothes when you were young, or is that an indulgence you couldn't afford 'cause it would have been too weird? ANDRE 3000: Well, no, actually, in high school - I mean, it was still all about style. Like, in Atlanta, it was called, you know, being a prep. And when you're a prep, it's kind of like - it was like a closed culture. And we were considered what you would call, like, lowheads. And this was - even though, you know, Ralph Lauren, I think he started in '67, he was kind of like the general of this whole stylesman, you know, thing. And as a kid, you know, that's all we wanted to be. We wanted to look like - you know, we wanted to look like we we had it, look like we went to college. And so everybody - we were into clothes, and we did certain things with them, like, in our own funky kind of way. Like, you would take pants, and we would dye them different colors. Or we'd wear, you know, two or three different-colored polo shirts on top of each other just so we can have color combinations and all this type of stuff. So it was real - it was a real style thing. So that's always been in me. But I think people get the stage antics and the stage wear, I think, mixed up with streetwear. You know, when you're on stage, you know, you - I mean, you wear the white wigs, or you wear, you know, these Indian, you know, no shirt and, you know, huge furry pants or whatever. I mean, but those are not things that happen on the street, though, you know? So to answer your question, they don't fit in. You know, that doesn't fit in with it, but at the same time, the attitude that you do it with - you know, some of the hardest people on the street, you know, they come up to me and be like, man, you know, I love what you do. And I think it comes from the attitude of what you're wearing, not actually what you're wearing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR, and we're celebrating the 50th anniversary of hip-hop. Let's get back to Terry's interview with Andre 3000 of the duo Outkast."}
{"id": "1197212691", "date": "2023-09-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Outkast's Andr\u00e9 3000", "question_index": 28, "text": "Well, Andre Benjamin, thank you so much for talking with us. ANDRE 3000: Thank you for having me on the show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR, and we're celebrating the 50th anniversary of hip-hop. Let's get back to Terry's interview with Andre 3000 of the duo Outkast."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today, we conclude our hip-hop history series and feature the interview I recorded in 2010 with rapper and music entrepreneur Jay-Z. Jay-Z grew up as Shawn Carter in a housing project in Brooklyn. And in the 1980s, he watched as crack cocaine destroyed his neighborhood. He even sold crack for a time to support his family before he found a new identity in the recording studio and on stage. He's often regarded as one of the greatest and most successful rappers of all time. He's won 24 Grammys, holds the record for the most No. 1 albums by a solo artist on the Billboard 200, and in 2017, he became the first rapper to be inducted into the Songwriters Hall of Fame. For the past few years, he's recorded infrequently, but in 2018, he made an album with his wife, Beyonce, called \"Everything Is Love.\" He's also a successful entrepreneur. He's the founder and chair of the entertainment company Roc Nation, the former president of Def Jam Records and in 2019, he became hip-hop's first billionaire. Jay-Z has also been central to the commercial success of other artists, including Rihanna and Kanye West. When I spoke with Jay-Z in 2010, he'd just published his book, \"Decoded,\" in which he tells the stories behind 36 of his songs. We talked about his early life in Brooklyn, his pivot from being a hustler to a rapper, how he writes and remembers his lyrics and how he got the rights to sample \"Hard-Knock Life\" from the musical \"Annie.\" But first, let's start with a story about Jay-Z told by Questlove, co-founder of The Roots, which became famous as a hip-hop band and has been the \"Tonight Show\" band ever since Jimmy Fallon became the host. He's also famous as a DJ and for his immense record collection. In 2021, Questlove told me about the crazy circumstances in which he first listened to Jay-Z's album, \"The Blueprint.\" The album was released on 9/11. That morning, Questlove was staying in a hotel in Midtown Manhattan. He slept late, and when he heard the news about the attack on the World Trade Center and the terror and chaos surrounding it, his first impulse was to find a way to get to a record store.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 1, "text": "You paid a taxi driver $100 to take you to the Virgin record store, which was...", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 2, "text": "...A few blocks away. It's just amazing that your first reaction was, I got to get some more music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 3, "text": "It's like, the world may be ending. I'd better get some more records. Like, what was going...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 4, "text": "...Through your mind when that's what you did?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'll be..."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'll be honest with you, the way that Prince describes what the apocalypse was like in \"1999,\" the song, that's kind of what was happening. Like, I hate to say this, but - and this is kind of the basi"}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 6, "text": "That was the Jay-Z album.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So I saw a taxi and, you know, he seemed rather calm. He was, like, the only calming figure out there. I said, can you drive to Virgin Megastore real quick? And I gave him $100. I said, do me a favo"}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 7, "text": "Were you not expecting to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. The Jay-Z record. That's all I did. I just sat there and listened to it, and a funny thing happened. I liked that record."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, we should hear something from \"Blueprint,\" from the Jay-Z album that you're talking about. What would you like to play from it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In which I was, quote, supposed to not - I was supposed to not like that record. Like, there was an apartheid happening in hip-hop between the haves and the have-nots. The successful rappers were look"}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 9, "text": "OK. Let's hear it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wow. It's - let's see. Probably I would play \"Izzo,\" the most popular cut on that record produced by Kanye West - \"Izzo.\""}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 10, "text": "We just heard from Questlove. Here's the interview I recorded with Jay-Z in 2010.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) I appreciate that. H to the izz-O, V to the izz-A (ph). Fo' shizzle my nizzle (ph) used to dribble down in VA. Was hurting them in the home of the Terrapins. Got it dirt cheap for them. Plus"}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 11, "text": "Jay-Z Welcome to FRESH AIR. It's great to have you on our show. So let me just start...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) I appreciate that. H to the izz-O, V to the izz-A (ph). Fo' shizzle my nizzle (ph) used to dribble down in VA. Was hurting them in the home of the Terrapins. Got it dirt cheap for them. Plus"}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 12, "text": "...With a track that we heard, which samples The Jackson 5's \"I Want You Back.\" Tell me what that song meant to you before you used it in \"Izzo.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 13, "text": "Now, would you mind if I asked you about \"Izzo,\" which I think is one of your nicknames?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had - I grew up in Marcy Projects in Brooklyn, and my mom and pop had an extensive record collection. So Michael Jackson and Stevie Wonder and all those sounds and souls of Motown, etc., etc.,"}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 14, "text": "Which is short for...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like an abbreviation. You know, H to the izz-O, like, for Hova. It's a spelling, and it was, like, this - I guess it's a form of pig Latin. It's language that we used like a sla"}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 15, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Jay-Hova (ph), which is a nickname that, you know, they gave me because it was like - one time I was recording in the studio, and I wasn't writing. And one of my friends was like, man, this is like, h"}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 16, "text": "Right. So what were your first rhymes like? Like, you got your first boombox when you were 9. Your mother gave it to you, you say, because she thought it would help keep you out of trouble.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As most nicknames do, right?"}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 17, "text": "OK. So provocative is a pretty big word for a kid of that age. Did you find that word in the dictionary, or did you already know it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, just so - you know, if I was focusing on music, you know, I wouldn't be, you know, running the streets all wild. So she tried to encourage me to pursue my dreams in music early on. And my "}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 18, "text": "Would you describe the Marcy Projects in Bedford-Stuyvesant, where you grew up in Brooklyn?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I found that in the dictionary. I had a sixth-grade teacher, Miss Lowden, that was very pivotal to my hunger for wanting to know the English language and, you know, discover th"}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 19, "text": "How old were you when crack came to the neighborhood?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You have these three columns of buildings with four people on each floor, six floors, you know, so you have people to the left of you, right of you, on top and on the bottom of you. It's a very "}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 20, "text": "And how did that change the projects?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was about '85, so I had to be - no, a little earlier than that, so maybe about 12, 13 years old."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 21, "text": "And it changed everything for you because you - and you write about this in the book, and, you know, you've rapped about it, too - you ended up being a hustler. You ended up selling crack and helping your mother, as a single mother, support the family. Did she know that's how you were making the money?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it - what it changed most was - you know, they have a saying, it takes a village to raise a child. It changed the authority figure because, you know, with crack cocaine, it was done so o"}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 22, "text": "So you'd seen how it really damaged people - crack. And then when you started selling it, did you ever think, I'm contributing to that damage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm sure she suspected, you know, as much, 'cause it was so prevalent. What happened was it was either you were using it or selling it, and that was pretty much the two options. I know there was - you"}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 23, "text": "We're listening back to my 2010 interview with Jay-Z. We'll hear more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, not until later on. You know, at 14, 15 years old, you know, you're thinking about - to be honest with you, you're thinking about sneakers, or you're thinking about some sort of relief from all th"}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 2010 interview with Jay-Z.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, not until later on. You know, at 14, 15 years old, you know, you're thinking about - to be honest with you, you're thinking about sneakers, or you're thinking about some sort of relief from all th"}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 25, "text": "I want to play another track here, and I want to play \"December 4th\" because it's so autobiographical and about the period of your life that we're talking about and also because your mother's featured on it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, not until later on. You know, at 14, 15 years old, you know, you're thinking about - to be honest with you, you're thinking about sneakers, or you're thinking about some sort of relief from all th"}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 26, "text": "We'll actually hear her voice. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I tricked her."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 27, "text": "Did you say you tricked her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 28, "text": "What did you tell her when you said, what do you want me to say?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It was her birthday. It was actually her birthday. December 4 is my birthday, which is the title of the song. And it was her birthday, September 17, and I told her to meet me down at the studio,"}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 29, "text": "OK. So here's Jay-Z's \"December 4th\" from \"The Black Album,\" and also featuring his mother.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just tell those stories that you told about me about riding a bike when I was 4 and, you know, those sort of things. And she went in there, and it was - you know, we couldn't get off the mic after a m"}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 30, "text": "That's Jay-Z's \"December 4th,\" and my guest is Jay-Z. Let's talk about the period of your life when you were selling crack. How did you start doing that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Shawn was a very shy child growing up."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 31, "text": "No job interview...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yes, it wasn't very difficult. It was like..."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 32, "text": "Resume.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 33, "text": "And did you take that \"Scarface\" advice of do not get high on your own supply?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. I knew a friend who knew a friend. And, you know, he made an induction. And we had a conversation almost like a job interview. And it was almost these rules of how to do it, and how not to"}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 34, "text": "So did you listen to that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that - strangely enough, that movie about, you know, all this violence and gore was, like, one of the biggest things to impact our generation. You know, not everyone listened. You know, it's a v"}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 35, "text": "So you write about some of the generational differences at this time when a lot of the teenagers were selling crack and a lot of the adults were addicted. And you say one of the differences - generational differences was the way you dressed, baggy jeans and puffy coats, to stash the crack and the weapons, and construction boots to survive cold winter nights working in the streets. Now, I have to say, I've never thought of those baggy pants and puffy coats as ways to stash drugs and weapons.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, I did. Yes."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 36, "text": "You describe in the book how when you first started writing rhymes, you had a notebook. But when you were hustling on the street, you weren't carrying your notebook with you. And if a rhyme came to you that you wanted to remember - what would you do? - you'd go to the store. Tell the story, how you'd go to the store to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's like, that's what \"Decoded\" is pretty much about. It breaks down some of the things that - you know, the origins of things and how they arrive, especially, you know, with the songs, of cour"}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 37, "text": "And what about now? Do you write down rhymes when they come to you? Or..", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. What happened was I wrote so much in this book. I would sit at my table for hours and hours until my mother made me go to bed. And it was like this obsession with words and with writing. And as "}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 38, "text": "And your memory is as good now as it was then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I haven't since my first album."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 39, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I've lost plenty of material. It's not the best way. I wouldn't advise it to..."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 40, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wouldn't advise it to anyone. I've lost a couple albums' worth of great material."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 41, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded with Jay-Z in 2010. We'll hear more of the interview after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I thought they were great, when I couldn't remember them. You know, to think about how, you know, when you can't remember a word and it drives you crazy like, man, I got to think about this, you"}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 42, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're concluding our hip-hop history series with my 2010 interview with Jay-Z. This year, he was ranked as the greatest rapper of all time by Billboard and Vibe. He's won 24 Grammys. Now he records infrequently, but he's still a successful entrepreneur. He's the founder and chair of the entertainment company Roc Nation, the former president of Def Jam Records. And in 2019, he became hip-hop's first billionaire. When we spoke, he had just published his book, \"Decoded,\" which describes how he wrote 36 of his songs. The book also describes two sides of his life, his early years as a hustler selling crack and his career as a rapper. So what was the turning point in your life that got you out of hustling and into the recording studio?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) Feel me now. Listen. Momma loved me. Pop left me. Mickey fed me. Annie dressed me. Eric fought me, made me tougher. Love you for that, my [expletive], no matter what, bruh. Marcy raised me, "}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 43, "text": "So how much money had you been making on the street when you decided to try music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was, like, events that would happen over the years. You know, I went to a guy named Clark Kent - by the name of Clark Kent. I made a couple of demos with him, and then I would leave back into th"}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 44, "text": "Let's talk about another one of your tracks. I want to play \"Hard Knock Life,\" which really surprised me when I first heard it because you sample the song \"Hard Knock Life\" from the Broadway show \"Annie,\" which I thought was a real surprise -", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't know if you really have a concrete number of how much money you were making. Sometimes it was really good, and it was fantastic. I mean, I did pretty well, which made it more difficult f"}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 45, "text": "surprising choice for you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't know if you really have a concrete number of how much money you were making. Sometimes it was really good, and it was fantastic. I mean, I did pretty well, which made it more difficult f"}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 46, "text": "Yes, to say the least. So how did you decide to use that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To say the least."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 47, "text": "So let's hear the song, and then we'll talk some more about it. So this is \"Hard Knock Life (Ghetto Anthem)\" by Jay-Z.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what happened was my sister's name is Andrea Carter, and we call her Annie for short. So when the TV version of the play, you know, came on and it was like, this is a story called \"Annie,\" I was"}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 48, "text": "That's \"Hard Knock Life (Ghetto Anthem)\" by my guest, Jay-Z, who has a new book called \"Decoded.\" So you tell a great story in the book about how you got the rights to use that song, to use the song from \"Annie,\" \"Hard Knock Life.\" Would you tell the story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) It's the hard-knock life for us."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 49, "text": "Let me stop you, because in the book you say", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Well, I mean, we got the rights already, so it's a bit late, so - 'cause I exaggerated a touch. You know, and it's typical when you have to clear a song, you have to send it - a sampled song, you se"}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 50, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Well, I mean, we got the rights already, so it's a bit late, so - 'cause I exaggerated a touch. You know, and it's typical when you have to clear a song, you have to send it - a sampled song, you se"}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 51, "text": "...That you told a big lie. In the book, you say that you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 52, "text": "You made up that you entered an essay contest, and in the essay, you wrote about the importance of seeing \"Annie\" on Broadway, which you'd never seen on Broadway, in fact...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 53, "text": "...And, you know, all that it meant to you when you saw it on Broadway. And I think you said you, like, won the essay contest. And so you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 54, "text": "So how did - so in other words, you lied a little bit in order to get the rights?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't want you to put the whole thing out there. I was trying to - you know, I could have..."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 55, "text": "Well, it worked out well for everybody.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It was - you know, it was a bad lie for a good reason."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 56, "text": "Have you ever met Charles Strouse, who wrote the music for the song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 57, "text": "Oh. Oh, you mean your Grammy? Is that what you're talking about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, but someone just reached out, like, the other day and said that he wants to speak with me, so I'm going to reach out to him. I mean, just the other day, as well. So - which is really cool. I was i"}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 58, "text": "Oh, the gold record plaque.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No. The plaque for the record. You know..."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 59, "text": "Yeah. Yeah. Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...RA gives you - yeah."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 60, "text": "That's funny. That's right. Well...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it was, like, a lot of times platinum, though. But yeah, that..."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 61, "text": "...I interviewed him a few years ago. You want to hear what he had to say about \"Annie?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 62, "text": "Yeah. OK - I mean, about \"Hard-Knock Life?\" OK. So this is Charles Strouse, who wrote the music for \"Annie,\" talking about Jay-Z's version of \"Hard-Knock Life.\" And here's what he had to say about it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, please."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 63, "text": "OK. So he liked it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He said something in the liner notes that he - it was gritty. He said it was gritty. And he felt that that was the way Black people felt in the ghetto. And the fact is, when we were working on \"Annie,"}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 64, "text": "We're listening to my 2010 interview with Jay-Z. We'll hear more of it after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 65, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 2010 interview with Jay-Z.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 66, "text": "Parts of the street life that you'd left behind when you stopped hustling and started making music followed you and followed some of the people you knew - some of the other famous rappers - into the music world. I'm thinking, you know, like, Biggie gets killed. Tupac gets shot. You were accused of stabbing someone, and you could tell us or not tell us what actually happened with that. But I think it's just kind of tragic that that kind of violence kind of followed into the music world. And I guess I'd be interested in what your take on that is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 67, "text": "That you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When you come into - inside the music business and you're coming from these rough neighborhoods, you know, as soon as you sign a record deal, it's not like freeze tag, like, everything stops. Like, no"}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 68, "text": "...Stabbed a record executive when you're saying...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was a..."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 69, "text": "...He hadn't even done anything yet, and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, a record executive."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 70, "text": "...You thought that he had bootlegged your album and put it out before the release date. So you were...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 71, "text": "So did you actually stab him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. And he was a friend of mine, by the way. It was just, you know, a friend. We had a tussle. He went home. He didn't..."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 72, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was a fight that got out of hand. Let's just say that..."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 73, "text": "So you turned yourself in on that one?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Right? And he - you know, he went home without - he didn't take a - they didn't give him Aspirin, anything. He went home the same night. You know, they sensationalized it like he was in the hospita"}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 74, "text": "And pleaded guilty to a misdemeanor? Just to finish the story, is that - do I have that right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 75, "text": "OK. So - but anyway, so you do think it's kind of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yeah."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 76, "text": "Very tragic.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was very tragic..."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 77, "text": "Now, I just have to ask you, I'm sure you've been asked this a lot, but this is the b**** and ho question. It just always seemed to me that so much about rap music - about men's rap music, is about, you know, demanding respect but not giving a whole lot to women in the lyrics. And I'd be interested in your take on that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...But - it's very tragic, but if you put it in context, you could see why and how some of these things happen. Because if you go through these neighborhoods and places that we grew up in, it's happen"}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 78, "text": "Now, you're talking about yourself here, too, when you were younger?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A lot of these albums are made when, you know, artists are pretty young - 17, 18 years old. So they've never really had any real relationships. And if you come, you know, in the neighborhoods we're in"}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 79, "text": "So do you feel like you got over that eventually, that you matured out of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, as well. Yes."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 80, "text": "And were there times when you continued to write in the character of that younger person?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course. Yeah."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 81, "text": "Can I ask you a question you might find weird? But since part of your goal in the book is to kind of explain your generation and explain the music to people, you know how a lot of hip-hop artists, when they're on stage, they kind of, like, grab their crotch?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, a song on my first album was \"Ain't No [expletive].\" I guess y'all can bleep that out. You know, and it was, like, this careless relationship. And then that went to \"Big Pimpin'\" in '99. And o"}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 82, "text": "Yeah, like, how did that start? Like, who started that, and why is that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I have a great explanation for that."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 83, "text": "I thought it was kind of the opposite. Like, this stuff is so good", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, a lot of times in hip-hop, like in rock 'n' roll, you have bands who tour the world. They get in vans, and they tour the world. And they do rinky-dink clubs, and they get bottles thrown at them "}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 84, "text": ". I'm...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, a lot of times in hip-hop, like in rock 'n' roll, you have bands who tour the world. They get in vans, and they tour the world. And they do rinky-dink clubs, and they get bottles thrown at them "}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 85, "text": "...Going to show off. No?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. That's what..."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 86, "text": "So do you feel like you were onstage before you prepared for it? Probably not because you did parties before that. You had experience.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, they want - that's what we want you to believe. But the reality is - and no one else will admit to this - maybe they will - is you onstage in front of - now with summer jams and things like that"}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 87, "text": "So but really, like, you've done the crotch thing too, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. I kind of went through a rock 'n' roll stage. You know, I kind of was doing parties and learning to perform. The first show I ever did, I just forgot the words. I stood there, and I tried to "}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 88, "text": "So why are you doing - you're not afraid to be onstage.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 89, "text": "OK", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I just told you I went out first time I performed, I was..."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 90, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I just told you I went out first time I performed, I was..."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 91, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I forgot the words."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 92, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't do it my last show at Yankee Stadium, no."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 93, "text": "We're listening to my 2010 interview with Jay-Z. There's more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But, yeah, but my earlier shows, yes."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 94, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 2010 interview with Jay-Z.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Oh, whew. Just because of you. Oh, whew. Just because of you. Whoa, ooh. Just because of you."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 95, "text": "So let's play - let's get another song in here.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Oh, whew. Just because of you. Oh, whew. Just because of you. Whoa, ooh. Just because of you."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 96, "text": "And let's do \"99 Problems.\" We'll do the clean version.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 97, "text": "It's radio, my friend.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Aw."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 98, "text": "So this is actually based on a story - loosely based on a story that happened to you. Would you explain?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Aw."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 99, "text": "OK. And we're going to hear the part of the song that deals with the story that you just told.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's based on a generational story as well. There's a higher thing. Like, there was a time where there was a lot of activity going on on the turnpike from New York headed south because there wer"}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 100, "text": "And, again, it's the clean version. So a lot of the words are going to sound kind of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 101, "text": "Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And we'll say that one of the words that isn't clearly said here because it's distorted, because it's the clean version, is the word b****, which, in the context of this part of the song means dog because you're talking about K-9 dogs here...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's the second verse. That's where it takes place."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 102, "text": "...'Cause the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 103, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that was my - and that..."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 104, "text": "You know, is that in spite of the opening part that says, if you're having girl problems, I feel bad for you, son, I've got 99 problems, but the b**** ain't one?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Was the writer in me being provocative 'cause that's what rap should be, as well, you know, at times. That was really directed to all the people who hear buzzwords in rap music then immediately dis"}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 105, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that was to lead the listener down the wrong path if you were looking for that sort of thing."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 106, "text": "So here's \"99 Problems\" by my guest, Jay-Z.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 107, "text": "That was \"99 Problems\" by my guest, Jay-Z. Do we have time for the other 98 problems?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) Hit me. The year's '94 and my trunk is raw. In my rearview mirror is the motherf****** law. I got two choices, y'all, pull over the car or bounce on the devil, put the pedal to the floor. No"}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 108, "text": "So, you know, part of that story is that the K-9 - the cops' K-9 corps was supposed to be coming after you. You got - they let you go just before the dogs came?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, if you could get it in nine minutes."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 109, "text": "'Cause you were holding, so it was very close.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it was - I guess it was far away on another call, and the cop tried to hold us. He really had no probable cause, no reason to hold us. So he just said, man, get out of here. And as we left, abou"}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 110, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, if the K-9 would have came, it would have smelled it, then we would have been finished. It would have..."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 111, "text": "Right. Right. Yeah. No lots of things. Well, Jay-Z, it's been really great to talk with you. Thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No book."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 112, "text": "My interview with Jay-Z was recorded in 2010. Well, that concludes our hip-hop history series. If you want to hear the other archive interviews in our series, including artists Grandmaster Flash, Queen Latifah, RZA, De La Soul and Andre 3000, you'll find them on our podcast and on our website. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, my guest will be Zadie Smith. She's known for her essays and novels about contemporary life and art. But her new book is a historical novel set in Victorian England. Her characters are dealing with some of the same issues we face today - gender inequality, class divisions and the perpetual consequences of slavery. I hope you'll join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at @nprfreshair.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had a great time. Thank you."}
{"id": "1197216195", "date": "2023-09-04", "guest": "Gloria Carter", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of hip-hop: Jay-Z", "question_index": 113, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Ann Marie Baldonado, Therese Madden, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) Yeah. Yeah, I'm out that Brooklyn. Now I'm down in Tribeca. Right next to De Niro, but I'll be hood forever. I'm Sinatra. And since I made it here, I can make it anywhere. Yeah, they love me"}
{"id": "1198415536", "date": "2023-09-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 0, "text": "Hua Hsu, welcome to FRESH AIR. I love your memoir, and I'm so glad we have this chance to talk.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. When you're a teenager trying to figure out your own identity of how you want to be seen, one way is by asserting who you are through what you listen to or watch o"}
{"id": "1198415536", "date": "2023-09-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 1, "text": "You're so obsessed with music and have been since you were a teenager.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks so much for having me. It's really - it's a real delight to be here."}
{"id": "1198415536", "date": "2023-09-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 2, "text": "Your father loved music, classical music when he was living in Taiwan. In the U.S., he discovered Dylan, The Beatles, The Rolling Stones, Aretha, Guns N' Roses, Hendrix, Ray Charles, Neil Young. And as an act of rebellion, you didn't listen to music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1198415536", "date": "2023-09-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 3, "text": "He was listening to music. You'd be listening to baseball games on the radio. I find that so amusing, you know, that someone who's been so obsessed with music for so many years, like, initially rejected it as being, like, uncool.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1198415536", "date": "2023-09-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 4, "text": "You fell in love with Nirvana's \"Smells Like Teen Spirit\" when you were 13, and you became addicted to the feeling that you happened on a secret before everyone else. What was so addicting about that for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I'm a parent now, and I really think that children - you know, you're supposed to not think that what your parents are into is, like, cool or relevant to you and - or at least at certain age"}
{"id": "1198415536", "date": "2023-09-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 5, "text": "What happened when you realized that Nirvana had become, like, really popular? Did you have to renounce them after that 'cause it was no longer, like, your special discovery?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's very funny for me to reflect on it now because, you know, millions - hundreds of millions of people like Nirvana and also have had a very similar experience where, you know, they become"}
{"id": "1198415536", "date": "2023-09-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 6, "text": "There's a paragraph I want to read - want you to read from your book. And it's actually, like, the opening paragraph...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And it's - again, I feel like this was an incredibly generic experience in retrospect, shared by tens of millions of people. But, you know, I was so invested in them. And all of a sudden when to"}
{"id": "1198415536", "date": "2023-09-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 7, "text": "...That gives a sense of the place of music in your life when you were that age - well, when you were a little bit older and could drive.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "1198415536", "date": "2023-09-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 8, "text": "Mixtapes - does that seem like ancient history to you now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) Back then, there was no such thing as spending too much time in the car. We would have driven anywhere so long as we were together. I always offered my Volvo. First, it seemed like the cool,"}
{"id": "1198415536", "date": "2023-09-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 9, "text": "When your father moved back to Taiwan, when you were still a teenager, you would communicate with him by fax.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It does, although I have been making new mixtapes to sort of give away to people at my readings. So I have - I'm actually sitting next to a stack of 60-minute cassette tapes I had to buy off eBay. You"}
{"id": "1198415536", "date": "2023-09-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 10, "text": "And when Kurt Cobain died by suicide, that was a very important, significant moment for you. I mean, you really loved their music. That was the first music you kind of claimed as, like, your own as an independent listener, you know, separate from your father. And you were faxing back-and-forth with your father about the meaning of Kurt Cobain's death. And I thought he actually had some really interesting things to say about that. Do you want to talk about what he said?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1198415536", "date": "2023-09-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 11, "text": "And he wrote about trying to find meaning in life but accepting the reality. I thought that was very interesting and maybe very helpful at the time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course. I mean, it was a moment for me when I realized kind of the power of writing in a way because I was trying on a lot of ideas. You know, I think when Kurt Cobain took his own life, there were"}
{"id": "1198415536", "date": "2023-09-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 12, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Hua Hsu, a culture critic for The New Yorker. His new memoir is called \"Stay True.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And, you know, when we - I was a teenager - the main purpose of the fax was for him to help me with my math homework 'cause I was hopeless at math, and he's very good at math. And so we would - "}
{"id": "1198415536", "date": "2023-09-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Hua Hsu, a culture critic for The New Yorker. His new memoir, \"Stay True,\" is about his teenage and college years, how he defined himself by the music he loved and how the murder of his close friend changed his life. It's also about being the son of immigrants from Taiwan. So I want to talk about your friend Ken, a close friend from your college years who was murdered. And I want to start with your friendship.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And, you know, when we - I was a teenager - the main purpose of the fax was for him to help me with my math homework 'cause I was hopeless at math, and he's very good at math. And so we would - "}
{"id": "1198415536", "date": "2023-09-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 14, "text": "You write about him with a kind of passion that is often reserved for writing about lovers, you know, this, like, incredible bond that you felt and, you know, how you traveled through the world together in a lot of ways. I don't mean geographically around the world but, you know, through the world of your lives. And I'm wondering if a lot of that feeling of connection and closeness and necessity was in retrospect or if you felt all that at the time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "1198415536", "date": "2023-09-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 15, "text": "Ken and you were pretty different. He came from a - you know, a Japanese American family that had been here for generations. He felt - you know, he was very assimilated. Your parents were immigrants from Taiwan. He dressed more formally than you did; he wore collared shirts. And his tastes in music were, you know, much more mainstream than yours. So what are some of the bands that he liked that you thought, like, these are not good bands? And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a great question. I think being young, you're just sort of drawn to intensity. You know, you think that this is either the best night of your life or the worst night of your life. You think you"}
{"id": "1198415536", "date": "2023-09-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 16, "text": "How were you able to, like, judge people according to their tastes, which you did, and yet still feel this really strong connection to Ken?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1198415536", "date": "2023-09-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 17, "text": "Did he introduce you to any music that you had scorned...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, and I think a lot of it was just my own projection upon him. Like, I think he was a far more complicated person than I initially wrote off. But I definitely wrote him off when I first met him be"}
{"id": "1198415536", "date": "2023-09-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 18, "text": "...Rejected, and realized, oh, it's really not so bad - it's good?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, and I think a lot of it was just my own projection upon him. Like, I think he was a far more complicated person than I initially wrote off. But I definitely wrote him off when I first met him be"}
{"id": "1198415536", "date": "2023-09-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 19, "text": "Would you describe the night that he was murdered after leaving his own housewarming party, which was at a bar or restaurant in Berkeley? It was his party. This was in July of 1998. What are your memories of that night and of him that night?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, I - it's pretty ridiculous. But he was very into Pearl Jam, which was a band that I had dismissed out of hand for kind of, like, really dumb reasons. But, yeah - no, there were a lot o"}
{"id": "1198415536", "date": "2023-09-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 20, "text": "You can't - I don't think, anyways, that you can live every minute of your daily life as if it's the last time you're going to see somebody. I mean, that puts so much weight...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For many years, I was very hung up on that night, not just because it was the night he was killed but because I had left mid-conversation, you know? A lot of our friendship was based on these really l"}
{"id": "1198415536", "date": "2023-09-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 21, "text": "...On every moment.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1198415536", "date": "2023-09-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 22, "text": "So when you first found out that when he left his own party late at night that he was carjacked, put into the trunk of his own car, then taken out of the car and shot, how much of that were you told when you were told that he was killed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. Let's get back to Terry's 2022 interview with Hua Hsu, a culture critic for The New Yorker. His memoir, \"Stay True,\" was awarded the Pulitzer Prize this year. His "}
{"id": "1198415536", "date": "2023-09-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 23, "text": "You accidentally discovered, I think, years later, what happened - like, the details of what happened that night.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think we knew any of that. And so the police told his family and told a couple of us that he had been killed. They wouldn't reveal any other details at that time. But within a couple days, I t"}
{"id": "1198415536", "date": "2023-09-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 24, "text": "You were looking at a website for people who wanted their DUIs expunged. It's not like you were looking for, like, who killed your friend Ken, but you realized that this story was his story. And so what did you learn about exactly what happened that night?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1198415536", "date": "2023-09-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 25, "text": "In that document, it said that your friend Ken begged for his life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's weird to put it this way, but I - you know, so I was just searching the internet randomly late one night, and I came across a document, a legal document, that essentially gave the perspective of "}
{"id": "1198415536", "date": "2023-09-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 26, "text": "You must be imagining what that scene was like.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1198415536", "date": "2023-09-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 27, "text": "You know, you and your friends debated whether Ken's murder was a hate crime against specifically an Asian American or whether he just happened to be the person who they chose to rob in part because he was a college student. So you were on the side of, like, this was just, like, a random choice. It wasn't - he wasn't targeted because he was Asian American. Why did you take that side?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I - that's something I didn't know until I read the document. And that was - it was really painful to read and to - you know, there are just so many details in that account - him asking for his "}
{"id": "1198415536", "date": "2023-09-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 28, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. My guest is Hua Hsu, a culture critic for The New Yorker. His new memoir is called \"Stay True.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I've thought about this a lot, especially in recent years, as kind of the category of hate crime seems to have broadened quite a bit. I think at the time, you know, there was this moment whe"}
{"id": "1198415536", "date": "2023-09-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Hua Hsu, a culture critic for The New Yorker. His new memoir, \"Stay True,\" is about his teenage and college years, how he defined himself by the music he loved and how the murder of his close friend changed his life. It's also about being the son of immigrants from Taiwan. Were there songs that you played over and over again after your friend Ken was killed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I've thought about this a lot, especially in recent years, as kind of the category of hate crime seems to have broadened quite a bit. I think at the time, you know, there was this moment whe"}
{"id": "1198415536", "date": "2023-09-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 30, "text": "So how did \"God Only Knows,\" which is such a great track - how did that compare pre-Ken's-death to post-Ken's-death and your reaction to it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There were. And there were a lot of songs that I stopped playing altogether, as well, because they felt too triggering in a way. Like, prior to his death in 1998, I was just listening to a lot of indi"}
{"id": "1198415536", "date": "2023-09-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 31, "text": "And now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one of the things that some of my friends - Ken, Shawn, Ben - and I would do on Friday nights is we would often just drive to this donut shop. And we would listen to this song. And, you know, it"}
{"id": "1198415536", "date": "2023-09-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 32, "text": "I've been thinking about this a lot, about how so many pop songs, especially from the past, are just about falling in love or about...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Now I love the song again. And I think part of it is kind of having figured out a way to move forward for myself. For me, music was a way of learning, like, how to be - how to have emotions, basically"}
{"id": "1198415536", "date": "2023-09-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 33, "text": "...You know, somebody leaving you, and you're heartbroken.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1198415536", "date": "2023-09-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 34, "text": "And I think that changed, you know, after Dylan and certainly after rap. But, yeah, it's - I mean, in some of those pop songs, both the American popular songbook and, you know, rock pop, soul pop - I mean, they're beautiful songs. They're great songs. But lyrically, they're all finding different ways to say basically the same thing. And sometimes, it actually gets frustrating 'cause there's so many other things to sing about.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1198415536", "date": "2023-09-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 35, "text": "And I think - you know what I mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1198415536", "date": "2023-09-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 36, "text": "But I think that's changed a lot between, like, singer-songwriters and, you know, Dylan and hip-hop, like I was saying.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I totally agree with you."}
{"id": "1198415536", "date": "2023-09-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 37, "text": "Is there a song you'd like to end with that has a lot of meaning for you surrounding what we've been talking about - about Ken and related things?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I think, like, after Ken's death, I sort of only listened to hip-hop because it was something I liked, but it had no real emotional content for me. Like, it wasn't something that was goi"}
{"id": "1198415536", "date": "2023-09-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'New Yorker' culture critic says music and mixtapes helped make sense of himself", "question_index": 38, "text": "Hua Hsu, it's been a pleasure to talk with you. I'm really glad you wrote your memoir.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, there's a song that sort of accompanied my friends and I through college, and that was - it's Bone Thugs-N-Harmony's song \"Tha Crossroads.\" And, you know, it was a song that came out, I thin"}
{"id": "1199222328", "date": "2023-09-13", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "'NY Times' reporter details the struggle within the military to modernize its forces", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The U.S. military has been testing new weapons with remarkable capabilities using cutting-edge, digital technology, including artificial intelligence. But the process has been held up by tradition, politics, lobbyists, the procurement bureaucracy, disagreements within the military and profound ethical questions surrounding the use of autonomous deadly weapon systems. Meanwhile, the limitations of the military's current weapon systems are being tested by the war in Ukraine, the current conflict with Iran over access to the Strait of Hormuz and the preparations for a possible armed conflict with China. My guest, Eric Lipton, has been investigating the military's struggles to modernize and the obstacles that have been standing in the way. Lipton is an investigative reporter for The New York Times. His first beat at the Times was covering Rudy Giuliani when he was mayor of New York. Then Lipton transitioned to covering the 9/11 attacks and their aftermath. We recorded our interview yesterday. Eric Lipton, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Let's start with the new weapons that you've reported on that the Navy is testing. Let's start there. And that includes unmanned vessels. So what does that mean, and what are they capable of that the current weapons are not capable of?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1199222328", "date": "2023-09-13", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "'NY Times' reporter details the struggle within the military to modernize its forces", "question_index": 1, "text": "So these unmanned vessels, who is controlling them, or are they controlling themselves?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The primary thing that the - I was - I went - traveled to Bahrain in the Middle East, which is a small island nation in the Persian Gulf in really contested waters because the Strait of Hormuz is not "}
{"id": "1199222328", "date": "2023-09-13", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "'NY Times' reporter details the struggle within the military to modernize its forces", "question_index": 2, "text": "So you keep using the word drones. And I think most of us think of drones as unmanned planes, you know, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They largely function on their own. They just - they - you give them a general area that you want them to patrol, and then there's a command center in Bahrain that I visited, the robot operations cent"}
{"id": "1199222328", "date": "2023-09-13", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "'NY Times' reporter details the struggle within the military to modernize its forces", "question_index": 3, "text": "...Drones in the sky. But you're talking about drones in the sea.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1199222328", "date": "2023-09-13", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "'NY Times' reporter details the struggle within the military to modernize its forces", "question_index": 4, "text": "In Bahrain, they're also testing solar-powered vessels that don't need to be refueled for three months. So what's the significance of these vessels that are being tested?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. That's right. And I guess, I mean, what I mean by drone, it's an unmanned or uncrewed vessel. There's - and that operates autonomously. And it is - they have both aerial drones and surface dron"}
{"id": "1199222328", "date": "2023-09-13", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "'NY Times' reporter details the struggle within the military to modernize its forces", "question_index": 5, "text": "So there's another vessel, and I think it's called the Devil Ray, that can reach speeds up to 90 mph. That seems very fast to me, but I don't really know much about, you know, drone vessels. So is that as fast as I think it is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. There's a couple. There's - Ocean Air is one of the manufacturers. Another is Saildrone. And these things just go - you put them out in the water, and they can be there for up to a year. And the"}
{"id": "1199222328", "date": "2023-09-13", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "'NY Times' reporter details the struggle within the military to modernize its forces", "question_index": 6, "text": "So is artificial intelligence being tested in new ways with any of these vessels?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is. It's a crazy speed for a vessel on the water. It's made by MARTAC which is a Florida-based company. And that's a - kind of a pursuit vessel. That - if you've got fast boats that are, you know, "}
{"id": "1199222328", "date": "2023-09-13", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "'NY Times' reporter details the struggle within the military to modernize its forces", "question_index": 7, "text": "OK. So we talked about you being in Bahrain where these new naval vessels are being tested. You were also in Pascagoula, Miss., where the big battleships are being produced. And so compare those big battleships with the smaller, faster vessels. Like, what are the big battleships capable of that the smaller vessels aren't? You've described why the big battleships need the smaller vessels, but tell us about the big battleships and their cost and their advantages and limitations.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that they are using it to some extent in evaluating the feeds that they're getting and they're doing - they're identifying threats. And, you know, potentially, you know, though they don't real"}
{"id": "1199222328", "date": "2023-09-13", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "'NY Times' reporter details the struggle within the military to modernize its forces", "question_index": 8, "text": "So why is there this imbalance between the amount of money being poured into the battleships - you know, let's face it. They each cost $2 billion apiece, so they require a lot of money. But why is there such an imbalance between these old weapons and the newer ones that the military considers essential for the future?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. I mean, it was quite an intense journey. I traveled from Washington, D.C., to Pascagoula, where the HII - you know, is what they call themselves now, but it's Huntington Ingalls Industries - is"}
{"id": "1199222328", "date": "2023-09-13", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "'NY Times' reporter details the struggle within the military to modernize its forces", "question_index": 9, "text": "I think part of the logic behind that is that the new, smaller drones can conduct the kind of surveillance that would save the battleships from being destroyed. And just looking at it financially, not even taking into account the human lives that would be lost when a battleship is destroyed, you've just thrown $2 billion away.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, a lot of it comes down to the power of lobbyists and the power of lawmakers that come from the shipbuilding states and the jobs - you know, the Huntington Ingalls - HII - shipyard is the large"}
{"id": "1199222328", "date": "2023-09-13", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "'NY Times' reporter details the struggle within the military to modernize its forces", "question_index": 10, "text": "Eric, I think you want to correct me on my use of the word battleship. So what is the current terminology for the kind of large $2 billion ships that we've been talking about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, the Navy has all of the results of all these war games that are quite clear. If they were to send these destroyers or either aircraft carriers or aircraft carrier groups anywhere near Ch"}
{"id": "1199222328", "date": "2023-09-13", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "'NY Times' reporter details the struggle within the military to modernize its forces", "question_index": 11, "text": "OK. Thank you for the correction. Well, I want to talk with you more, but it's time for a short break. So let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Eric Lipton, an investigative reporter for The New York Times. We'll talk more about his investigation into the military's struggles to modernize and the obstacles in the way after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a destroyer. The battleship was a type of a ship that is - there's no longer that class of ship. It's a destroyer, they call it now."}
{"id": "1199222328", "date": "2023-09-13", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "'NY Times' reporter details the struggle within the military to modernize its forces", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Eric Lipton, an investigative reporter for The New York Times. He's been investigating the military's struggles to modernize and the obstacles that have been standing in the way. So continuing our discussion here, you know, you've mentioned lobbyists being responsible in part for the emphasis on building new battleships. Who are the lobbyists? Who do they represent? Is it the defense industry lobbyists? Is it beyond those groups?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a destroyer. The battleship was a type of a ship that is - there's no longer that class of ship. It's a destroyer, they call it now."}
{"id": "1199222328", "date": "2023-09-13", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "'NY Times' reporter details the struggle within the military to modernize its forces", "question_index": 13, "text": "Dick Gephardt, former Democrat - I mean, former Democrat in Congress.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it's - most of it is the defense sector that hires these lobbyists. And, you know, they're people like Haley Barbour, the former, you know, governor of Louisiana, and Trent Lott, the former se"}
{"id": "1199222328", "date": "2023-09-13", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "'NY Times' reporter details the struggle within the military to modernize its forces", "question_index": 14, "text": "You know, you were talking about how, proportionately, a lot of money is going to build new destroyers for the Navy and proportionately little money is going to building these new unmanned vessels, the drones at sea that can conduct surveillance and protect the destroyers. So can you give us a sense of how disproportionate that is, like, how little money is going for the drones versus the destroyers? It's a hard formula because the destroyers cost so much more.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Dick Gephardt - yeah - the former speaker of the House. It's bipartisan and, you know, kind of pretty old-school, you know, the - kind of the Washington establishment. And they are all on retai"}
{"id": "1199222328", "date": "2023-09-13", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "'NY Times' reporter details the struggle within the military to modernize its forces", "question_index": 15, "text": "The companies that are behind the new, more digital drones at sea are basically like tech startups. They're not the old Defense Department contractors. So how is that affecting the whole budgeting and procurement process? - 'cause the Pentagon hasn't worked with these companies before, and it's used to these, like, huge defense contractors that have, you know, long histories with the Pentagon.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, the one example that I got was the Bahrain effort called Task Force 59, in which they, you know, had several dozen of these uncrewed vessels on the - in the Persian Gulf and area waters - that"}
{"id": "1199222328", "date": "2023-09-13", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "'NY Times' reporter details the struggle within the military to modernize its forces", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, let's take another break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is investigative reporter Eric Lipton, who has been investigating the military's struggles to modernize and the obstacles that have been standing in the way. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. And this is one of the complexities with the scaling up that's going on, is that, you know, you have some of these prime contractors. There's only, you know, a handful of them that are t"}
{"id": "1199222328", "date": "2023-09-13", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "'NY Times' reporter details the struggle within the military to modernize its forces", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Eric Lipton, an investigative reporter for The New York Times. He's been investigating the military's struggles to modernize and the obstacles that have been standing in the way. The limitations of the military's current weapon systems are being tested by the war in Ukraine, the current conflict with Iran over access to the Strait of Hormuz and the preparations for a possible armed conflict with China. This is a story involving politics, lobbyists, the procurement, bureaucracy, tradition versus innovation and ethical questions surrounding the use of autonomous deadly weapons. So is there a conflict within the military itself about the use of drones at sea and the new Air Force weapons being created with artificial intelligence? Is the - is all of the military behind that, or is the military in conflict with itself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. And this is one of the complexities with the scaling up that's going on, is that, you know, you have some of these prime contractors. There's only, you know, a handful of them that are t"}
{"id": "1199222328", "date": "2023-09-13", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "'NY Times' reporter details the struggle within the military to modernize its forces", "question_index": 18, "text": "Yeah. So you mention the military being very aware of citizens' fears about weapons turning against us - the weapons turning against our military or the creators of the weapons themselves or humanity in general. But what about within the military? What are some of the fears within the military about how unmanned drones and vessels at sea will work? Because, like, right now, the tests in the Air Force require the unmanned drones - the autonomous drones - flying alongside fighter jets that are manned vehicles so that people in the fighter jets can monitor what the unmanned, autonomous combat jets are doing. So are the people in the manned fighter jets concerned about flying alongside these unmanned combat planes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think, generally speaking, the military is unified in a conclusion that matching up drones and artificial intelligence is - they have to do this and that they effectively have no choice and that Ukr"}
{"id": "1199222328", "date": "2023-09-13", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "'NY Times' reporter details the struggle within the military to modernize its forces", "question_index": 19, "text": "So before we started our interview, you were telling me that on Monday - on September 11, you attended an Air Force conference where you heard the Air Force secretary, Frank Kendall, speak. And I want you to tell us what he said and how you interpret that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. There's a lot of apprehension. And, you know, the - one of the things I kept hearing from folks at the Air Force, at the Pentagon, at Eglin Air Force Base in Florida which I visited recently, as"}
{"id": "1199222328", "date": "2023-09-13", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "'NY Times' reporter details the struggle within the military to modernize its forces", "question_index": 20, "text": "If you could briefly explain why the U.S. military seems so confident that they need to prepare for armed conflict with China. Now, I know China considers Taiwan part of China. Taiwan considers itself an independent nation. So why is the U.S. convinced that this will bring the U.S. military into armed conflict with China?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, he opened the speech with the words China, China, China. The Department of Defense is obsessed with China right now. It's just - that's all you hear people talking about. We are transitioning "}
{"id": "1199222328", "date": "2023-09-13", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "'NY Times' reporter details the struggle within the military to modernize its forces", "question_index": 21, "text": "And what are some of the advantages China would have over the U.S. in such a scenario?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The U.S. military is preparing to potentially being asked to defend Taiwan against the Chinese invasion, and it's a scenario that they don't like because of - the position of Taiwan is so close to Chi"}
{"id": "1199222328", "date": "2023-09-13", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "'NY Times' reporter details the struggle within the military to modernize its forces", "question_index": 22, "text": "We have to take another break here, so let me reintroduce you. My guest is Eric Lipton, an investigative reporter for The New York Times. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the primary is that the missile defense systems that China has built in the South China Sea - they built islands down there, and they have positioned missiles on those islands, and they have - a"}
{"id": "1199222328", "date": "2023-09-13", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "'NY Times' reporter details the struggle within the military to modernize its forces", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Eric Lipton, an investigative reporter for The New York Times. He's been investigating the military's struggles to modernize and the obstacles that have been standing in the way. Let's talk about Ukraine and the weapons being used there. And again, like, we're not at war with Russia, but our weapons are. What are we using, and how are they working? Is the military learning lessons from how these weapons are working?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the primary is that the missile defense systems that China has built in the South China Sea - they built islands down there, and they have positioned missiles on those islands, and they have - a"}
{"id": "1199222328", "date": "2023-09-13", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "'NY Times' reporter details the struggle within the military to modernize its forces", "question_index": 24, "text": "You mentioned satellites and how they're being used in the war in Ukraine. And right now, Ukraine is relying on satellites to provide internet connection. And during part of the war, Elon Musk, who owns those satellites through his Starlink network, which is part of SpaceX - he did not turn on Ukraine's access to Crimea when Ukraine was preparing to or maybe when they had already started their attack on Russians in Crimea 'cause Russia had claimed Crimea as its own and basically took it over. So this has - puts the U.S. military in a very strange position because part of Ukraine's ability to have internet connection and to fight this war is dependent on, you know, a private person who has this huge company and can decide what to turn on and what to turn off. So where are we now with that? There was - you know, Walter Isaacson reported on this in his new book. Ronan Farrow did a great piece in The New Yorker, which he talked about on our show recently with Tonya. So where are we now with that? Like, where is the military in terms of the Starlink network and how it plans in the future to deal with this kind of scenario where, you know, a private business owns crucial technology in a war?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I mean, no question. And again, everyone you speak with at the Department of Defense will tell you that they're tracking the commercial technology in particular that's been used in Ukraine. I mea"}
{"id": "1199222328", "date": "2023-09-13", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "'NY Times' reporter details the struggle within the military to modernize its forces", "question_index": 25, "text": "Since Ukraine is now using satellites for internet connection and for drones in the war, what is the U.S. military learning about how satellites might be used in the future in wars?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it's sort of like a Tony Stark scenario where you have a kind of - you know, a superhero that has a military arsenal of his own. And I think that this is something that the Department of Defen"}
{"id": "1199222328", "date": "2023-09-13", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "'NY Times' reporter details the struggle within the military to modernize its forces", "question_index": 26, "text": "You write that Ukraine is losing about 10,000 drones a month. What are those drones doing, and how are so many of them being destroyed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the answer is that you want to really flood the zone with small, inexpensive satellites that can give you just overwhelming visibility into what's happening on the ground. And that instead of "}
{"id": "1199222328", "date": "2023-09-13", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "'NY Times' reporter details the struggle within the military to modernize its forces", "question_index": 27, "text": "You know, you flip that over and imagine an enemy of the U.S. doing the same here, you know, having all these satellites observing us, and it becomes a very bad scenario when you flip who has the satellites. We're not going to be the only ones. And we probably already aren't the only ones.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ukraine has been adapting, like, you know, your hobbyist drone and putting essentially a modified grenade on it. And so it's a cheap product that you put in the air and then it loiters overhead. It fi"}
{"id": "1199222328", "date": "2023-09-13", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "'NY Times' reporter details the struggle within the military to modernize its forces", "question_index": 28, "text": "So it's often the case that it's new tech companies creating the new technologies in weaponry as opposed to the old defense contractors. And because they can move a lot quicker than the Pentagon can in - you know, in going through the whole bureaucracy to pay them and order more weapons, these new tech companies that are on the cutting-edge of creating these new weapons, some of them are starting to run into financial trouble because things aren't - you know, contracts aren't coming through fast enough, and they're laying off people. So what are the consequences of that? What are some of the problems that these new startups are having who are creating the new weapons?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, surveillance by satellite, I mean, China is launching it also at an incredible rate. And again, unfortunately, I think that the war in Afghanistan, the war in Iraq, you know, and our fear of t"}
{"id": "1199222328", "date": "2023-09-13", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "'NY Times' reporter details the struggle within the military to modernize its forces", "question_index": 29, "text": "Eric Lipton is an investigative reporter for The New York Times. We recorded our interview yesterday. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, a lot of them, when you talk to the CEOs of these companies, they're backed by venture capital, and they all talk about what they call the valley of death, which is a term that you usually hea"}
{"id": "1199222328", "date": "2023-09-13", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "'NY Times' reporter details the struggle within the military to modernize its forces", "question_index": 30, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Eric Lipton, an investigative reporter for The New York Times. He's been investigating the military's struggles to modernize and the obstacles that have been standing in the way. Are we depleting military supplies and, you know, fighting equipment in Ukraine? Is the military falling behind on its production to replace things because on the one hand, we're talking about there not being enough money for these new innovative, autonomous fighting vessels and combat drones, and at the same time, we're spending a lot of money on weapons for Ukraine, so how is the war in Ukraine affecting our ability to plan for the future? On the one hand, we're learning a lot from what's happening in Ukraine. We're learning a lot about modern fighting. We're learning a lot about some new technology, although as you said, it's mostly a 20th-century war. But are we depleting our own supplies and budget at the same time and making it harder...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, a lot of them, when you talk to the CEOs of these companies, they're backed by venture capital, and they all talk about what they call the valley of death, which is a term that you usually hea"}
{"id": "1199222328", "date": "2023-09-13", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "'NY Times' reporter details the struggle within the military to modernize its forces", "question_index": 31, "text": "...To plan for the future?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean..."}
{"id": "1199222328", "date": "2023-09-13", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "'NY Times' reporter details the struggle within the military to modernize its forces", "question_index": 32, "text": "I want to end by asking you about your first assignments at The New York Times. Your first assignment was covering Rudy Giuliani when he was the mayor of New York. And then you transitioned to covering 9/11, when Giuliani was, like, considered the heroic mayor of New York, who was holding up New Yorkers' spirits and holding the city together. He was described as - what? - America's mayor. Was that his nickname? So that was the public image of Giuliani then. You were covering Giuliani, and I'm wondering if at the time you saw any signs of him being prone to conspiracy theories or any signs that he's the kind of guy who might be indicted in the future for being part of a conspiracy to overthrow the results of the presidential election.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Both things are true, and at the same time as there is this crush to innovate, there's also a really kind of depressing realization that the industrial production capacity of the United States to buil"}
{"id": "1199222328", "date": "2023-09-13", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "'NY Times' reporter details the struggle within the military to modernize its forces", "question_index": 33, "text": "What is it like for you to see him be indicted and to see his mug shot?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The America's mayor construct was something that always surprised me a bit. And he was, you know, distrustful and a great deal of animosity and nasty towards reporters and others that I observed first"}
{"id": "1199222328", "date": "2023-09-13", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "'NY Times' reporter details the struggle within the military to modernize its forces", "question_index": 34, "text": "Eric Lipton, thank you so much for your reporting and for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's depressing and unfortunate. I mean, I got to know him extremely well. And, you know, covering September 11, you know, I was side by side with him for weeks after the attacks. And, you know, a cer"}
{"id": "1199222328", "date": "2023-09-13", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "'NY Times' reporter details the struggle within the military to modernize its forces", "question_index": 35, "text": "Ken Tucker reviewed Allison Russell's new album, \"The Returner.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll talk about how the military is struggling to modernize its weapon systems. The Army and Navy are testing weapons with remarkable capabilities using cutting-edge digital technology and AI. My guest will be Eric Lipton of The New York Times, who's conducted an investigation into the weapons, the need to modernize and the obstacles in the way. I hope you'll join us. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1199461671", "date": "2023-09-14", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "'The Last Politician' author shares stories behind Biden's successes and failures", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. When Franklin Foer started his book about the first two years of the Biden administration, he says he shared the Washington establishment's skepticism of the man and thought Biden dangerously fetishized bipartisanship. But Foer goes on to say, with a slight cooling of the political climate, bipartisan-minded senators passed a raft of legislation confirming Biden's instincts that creaky institutions could be rendered functional. Now, coinciding with the publication of the book, House Speaker Kevin McCarthy has launched an impeachment inquiry into whether Biden helped his son Hunter profit in foreign business dealings and if President Biden himself profited from those dealings, too. Investigations have revealed no evidence that this is true. The White House called the action extreme politics at its worst. We're going to talk about the attempt to impeach Biden, the stories behind his biggest successes and failures and the debate over whether he's too old to run for a second term. Foer's new book is called \"The Last Politician: Inside Joe Biden's White House And The Struggle For America's Future.\" Foer is a staff writer at The Atlantic. During the administration of the twice-impeached President Trump, Foer investigated connections between Trump, his presidential campaign and Russia and wrote about the Mueller investigation. We recorded this interview yesterday. Franklin Foer, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Congratulations on your new book. So you say that, you know, Biden, when he became president, he set out to prove that politics was the way out of this political mess that we've been in. That through coalition building and deal-making, he could find a way out. And he did manage to pass some, you know, pretty heavy-duty legislation. But now, Congressman McCarthy, the speaker of the House, has opened an impeachment inquiry into Biden. So you have sources inside the Biden administration. What is the reaction inside, and what do they plan to - how do they plan to handle this?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1199461671", "date": "2023-09-14", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "'The Last Politician' author shares stories behind Biden's successes and failures", "question_index": 1, "text": "Do you know anything about how the White House plans to deal with this impeachment inquiry?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this is a blatantly political act. And impeachment has become this normalized part of American politics at this stage. It's a cycle that's repeated fairly endlessly. One of the things that Repub"}
{"id": "1199461671", "date": "2023-09-14", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "'The Last Politician' author shares stories behind Biden's successes and failures", "question_index": 2, "text": "All right. So apparently, according to The New York Times, Trump has been talking to the Freedom Caucus about impeachment and to Marjorie Taylor Greene, who had already introduced articles of impeachment in Congress. Do you see this as trying to overthrow the election by other means? Because Trump was active in trying to change the results of the election, and he's been indicted for conspiracy for trying to do that. So do you think - see this as another way of trying to do the same thing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, my sense is that there is this hope that Republicans will go through the same cycle that they went through with the Bill Clinton impeachment and with a lot of the attacks against Barack Obam"}
{"id": "1199461671", "date": "2023-09-14", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "'The Last Politician' author shares stories behind Biden's successes and failures", "question_index": 3, "text": "So you're saying Republicans don't really believe that Biden will be impeached?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's a bit late in the day to even mess around with those sorts of plays, given how close we are to the next election. And also, the Senate is never going to convict Joe Biden on any of this s"}
{"id": "1199461671", "date": "2023-09-14", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "'The Last Politician' author shares stories behind Biden's successes and failures", "question_index": 4, "text": "Meanwhile, government shutdown is on the line if the budget deal isn't passed, I think, by the end of the month. What do you think the impeachment process means for the budget deal's chances?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think they're kind of - they're going through the motions in order to build a message headed into the 2024 election."}
{"id": "1199461671", "date": "2023-09-14", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "'The Last Politician' author shares stories behind Biden's successes and failures", "question_index": 5, "text": "Joe Biden will be 81 in November. Do you think a lot of Democrats believe he's too old to serve a second term but are afraid to say so? Because he doesn't have any serious challengers within the Democratic Party right now, for whatever reason. And do you think Democrats are afraid of speaking about Biden's age because they're afraid of what would happen if Trump won or DeSantis or other Republicans from the far right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's pretty clear that these two processes are interconnected, that Kevin McCarthy would prefer to avoid a government shutdown because he knows that his party will get blamed for that. And in or"}
{"id": "1199461671", "date": "2023-09-14", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "'The Last Politician' author shares stories behind Biden's successes and failures", "question_index": 6, "text": "And I think - and honestly, I think a lot of people are wondering, can anybody in their 80s - and he'll be - like, if he's reelected, he'll be in his mid-80s by the time his term is over. Can anybody at that age really endure the stresses and the travel and, you know, the impossible-to-solve problems that a president has to deal with when, basically, the whole world is on their shoulders?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's something strange that's happening with the age question, because on the one hand, questions about his age are obviously incredibly valid and important questions to be asked just as a matter o"}
{"id": "1199461671", "date": "2023-09-14", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "'The Last Politician' author shares stories behind Biden's successes and failures", "question_index": 7, "text": "And nobody can.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, a totally fair question, and I think it's one where everybody brings their own experience, their own baggage to the question. Every one of us has parents or grandparents who have aged. And it's "}
{"id": "1199461671", "date": "2023-09-14", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "'The Last Politician' author shares stories behind Biden's successes and failures", "question_index": 8, "text": "I'm wondering if you have any insights or direct knowledge of why Biden thinks that he should run for a second term at his age, knowing that the public, that ardent Democrats would have questions about his age, let alone Republicans trying to use that, to exploit that to their advantage.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And it's also, aging is not - it's not linear. It's not like we reach a threshold point where there's a human sell-by date and we're no longer able to do certain basic things. We have traits th"}
{"id": "1199461671", "date": "2023-09-14", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "'The Last Politician' author shares stories behind Biden's successes and failures", "question_index": 9, "text": "You write in your book that you initially saw Joe Biden as a bloviator who dangerously fetishized bipartisanship, but then he renewed your respect for politicians. What changed your mind about him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, the interesting counterfactual is to imagine, what would he have done absent Donald Trump's decision to run in 2024? I think that Trump's running again, in Biden's mind, simplified the decision,"}
{"id": "1199461671", "date": "2023-09-14", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "'The Last Politician' author shares stories behind Biden's successes and failures", "question_index": 10, "text": "Can you give us an example of that? You know, I'm not sure that empathy would come in that handy dealing with someone like Putin, but where did you see it really come in as a powerful tool?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I got to see him up close. And there's a - you know, the profession of politician is one that is - our culture has very, very little respect for. When I was a kid, one of the first jokes I learned was"}
{"id": "1199461671", "date": "2023-09-14", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "'The Last Politician' author shares stories behind Biden's successes and failures", "question_index": 11, "text": "Well, we need to take a short break here. So let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Franklin Foer. He's a staff writer for The Atlantic and author of the new book \"The Last Politician: Inside Joe Biden's White House And The Struggle For America's Future.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, the Putin thing is actually an interesting example unto itself because on the second day of his administration, he got a call from Vladimir Putin. And it was an unexpected call. And a lo"}
{"id": "1199461671", "date": "2023-09-14", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "'The Last Politician' author shares stories behind Biden's successes and failures", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Atlantic staff writer Franklin Foer, author of the new book \"The Last Politician: Inside Joe Biden's White House And The Struggle For America's Future.\" So you mentioned in the book Biden's almost fetishistic belief in bipartisanship. We're living in a time where there's very little bipartisanship. But Biden did manage to pass some important bills. What do you think are his most important legislative achievements in terms of the direct impact they're likely to have on the lives of American people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, the Putin thing is actually an interesting example unto itself because on the second day of his administration, he got a call from Vladimir Putin. And it was an unexpected call. And a lo"}
{"id": "1199461671", "date": "2023-09-14", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "'The Last Politician' author shares stories behind Biden's successes and failures", "question_index": 13, "text": "As a senator, Biden was known as somebody who could, you know, count heads, know when legislation could pass, know how to make compromise deals to get legislation passed. So how did he use those skills in the legislation that you've been talking about to get those bills passed? Because, like, some of that credit goes to congressional leaders.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So he passed a clutch of legislation, each of which you could make a case for its significance on its own, the most important of which, I think, is the Inflation Reduction Act, which is going to signi"}
{"id": "1199461671", "date": "2023-09-14", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "'The Last Politician' author shares stories behind Biden's successes and failures", "question_index": 14, "text": "And some of the credit goes to Biden. So give us an example of what Biden did.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "1199461671", "date": "2023-09-14", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "'The Last Politician' author shares stories behind Biden's successes and failures", "question_index": 15, "text": "Do you mean Schumer took over the negotiation with Manchin?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Passing Biden's legislative agenda with a one-vote margin in the Senate was something that required a lot of political tact. He had to bring along the left to agree to bipartisan things. He had to bri"}
{"id": "1199461671", "date": "2023-09-14", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "'The Last Politician' author shares stories behind Biden's successes and failures", "question_index": 16, "text": "Yeah. Well, it's time for another break, so let me reintroduce you. My guest is Franklin Foer. He's a staff writer for The Atlantic and author of the new book \"The Last Politician: Inside Joe Biden's White House And The Struggle For America's Future.\" We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, exactly."}
{"id": "1199461671", "date": "2023-09-14", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "'The Last Politician' author shares stories behind Biden's successes and failures", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Franklin Foer, author of the new book \"The Last Politician: Inside Joe Biden's White House And The Struggle For America's Future.\" During the Trump Administration, Franklin Foer investigated ties between the Trump campaign and Russia. He also wrote about the Mueller investigation. The U.S. has become such an ally of Ukraine during Ukraine's war with Russia - we're supplying arms, were supplying intelligence - but Biden has such a contrast with Zelenskyy. Biden is a lifelong politician. Zelenskyy is a former comic and sitcom star who got elected just in time to lead his country in war. Biden is 81, Zelenskyy is 45. Zelenskyy uses social media to get public support and is very charismatic. You wouldn't call - you'd call Biden very politically savvy, but not necessarily charismatic, not the king of social media. And their relationship got off to a pretty bad start. What caused it to get off to such a bad start?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, exactly."}
{"id": "1199461671", "date": "2023-09-14", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "'The Last Politician' author shares stories behind Biden's successes and failures", "question_index": 18, "text": "What was Zelenskyy asking for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Zelenskyy first came to the White House in September of 2021. And he had - he was a traumatized figure. He'd just been through the Trump impeachment saga, where his phone call had become the sou"}
{"id": "1199461671", "date": "2023-09-14", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "'The Last Politician' author shares stories behind Biden's successes and failures", "question_index": 19, "text": "And is that when Zelenskyy said, you know, NATO - like, France and Germany are going to be pulling out of NATO?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He wanted NATO membership, which is something that Ukraine has always asked for. But there was a moment in the conversation where he started to be very dismissive of NATO after Biden told him that it "}
{"id": "1199461671", "date": "2023-09-14", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "'The Last Politician' author shares stories behind Biden's successes and failures", "question_index": 20, "text": "What made him say that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yeah, exactly."}
{"id": "1199461671", "date": "2023-09-14", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "'The Last Politician' author shares stories behind Biden's successes and failures", "question_index": 21, "text": "How did the relationship between Zelenskyy and Biden end up improving?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think he just got frustrated. And at various points in the course of the Ukraine war, various American public officials, whether it's the CIA director or the secretary of state and the secretary of "}
{"id": "1199461671", "date": "2023-09-14", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "'The Last Politician' author shares stories behind Biden's successes and failures", "question_index": 22, "text": "I want to ask you about abortion in the post-Dobbs world. Now that the Supreme Court has overturned Roe v. Wade and now it's up to states to decide abortion laws, and abortion has been outlawed in some states, women have to travel far distances. And Republicans - some Republicans seem to be doing everything in their power to make abortion access impossible. Biden is Catholic. The church, of course, is opposed to abortion. How would you describe his position on abortion now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the arms just kept coming to Ukraine. And there was a logic to the way that the U.S. was arming Ukraine. It wasn't just giving them everything that they wanted, but it was helping them plan the "}
{"id": "1199461671", "date": "2023-09-14", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "'The Last Politician' author shares stories behind Biden's successes and failures", "question_index": 23, "text": "Roe v. Wade was based on a woman's right to privacy. And a woman's right to privacy should allow her to choose to have an abortion, a very private matter. But when Chief Justice John Roberts wrote the Dobbs decision, he objected to it being based on the right to privacy. And that's one of the reasons why Dobbs was overturned, perhaps the primary reason. And something that really disturbed Biden was Clarence Thomas' concurrence with the majority decision. And Clarence Thomas wrote, in future cases, we should reconsider all of this court's substantive due process precedents, including Griswold, Lawrence and Obergefell. And those are the decisions that use the right to privacy to overturn laws against birth control, gay sex, you know, gay marriage. Why did that really disturb Biden?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's evolved. As it was clear to the world that Dobbs was coming down the pike, there were all sorts of discussions within the administration about how to respond. And I think Biden initially wa"}
{"id": "1199461671", "date": "2023-09-14", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "'The Last Politician' author shares stories behind Biden's successes and failures", "question_index": 24, "text": "So what has Biden done and what is in his power to do to make abortion more accessible for women post-Dobbs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, privacy was an issue that he talked a lot about in the 1980s when he was chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee. And it was his initial frame for understanding the radicalism of it. As someb"}
{"id": "1199461671", "date": "2023-09-14", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "'The Last Politician' author shares stories behind Biden's successes and failures", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Franklin Foer, author of the new book \"The Last Politician: Inside Joe Biden's White House And The Struggle For America's Future.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In the weeks that followed the Dobbs decision, there were executive orders and executive actions that protected the right of women to travel out of state in order to get abortions. They protected the "}
{"id": "1199461671", "date": "2023-09-14", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "'The Last Politician' author shares stories behind Biden's successes and failures", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Franklin Foer, author of the new book \"The Last Politician: Inside Joe Biden's White House And The Struggle For America's Future.\" He's a staff writer for The Atlantic. So I want to change the topic to Afghanistan, which was seen as a real fiasco, you know, when America pulled out of Afghanistan, officially ending the war. There was a conflict then between, you know, the military leaders and the State Department. The military wanted to pull out as soon as possible because Biden had already said we're pulling out, we're ending this. And the military was worried that the longer it'd take - it took for the U.S. to pull out, the harder it would be to get out. Whereas the State Department wanted to stay and wanted to have the time to protect its own people and the people from Afghanistan who'd worked closely with it. So that was the conflict, or at least one of the conflicts. How did Biden position himself between the military and the State Department, which wanted conflicting things?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In the weeks that followed the Dobbs decision, there were executive orders and executive actions that protected the right of women to travel out of state in order to get abortions. They protected the "}
{"id": "1199461671", "date": "2023-09-14", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "'The Last Politician' author shares stories behind Biden's successes and failures", "question_index": 27, "text": "Yeah. So pulling out ended up being a fiasco. However, you say that that part was a fiasco, but at the same time, once the decision was made to pull out, once the Biden administration saw the chaos, it managed to pull together a more strategic plan to get people out of Afghanistan. Can you talk about that a little bit and how the Biden administration managed to figure out a plan where planes took off, like, every 45 minutes carrying people outside of Afghanistan?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He tended to defer to his military leaders on all of these questions. Belatedly, the administration had reconsidered the idea of keeping Bagram Airfield - which was the largest air base that we had in"}
{"id": "1199461671", "date": "2023-09-14", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "'The Last Politician' author shares stories behind Biden's successes and failures", "question_index": 28, "text": "Because he was so desperate to get out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So you have these terrible scenes coming from Kabul. You have this especially terrible image of a young man falling from a C-17 plane that's leaving, plummeting from the sky."}
{"id": "1199461671", "date": "2023-09-14", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "'The Last Politician' author shares stories behind Biden's successes and failures", "question_index": 29, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. He was clinging to - he was in the wheel well of the plane."}
{"id": "1199461671", "date": "2023-09-14", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "'The Last Politician' author shares stories behind Biden's successes and failures", "question_index": 30, "text": "One of the things I found most interesting in your chapter about the U.S. exit from Afghanistan was Hillary Clinton's role in it. Hillary knew a lot of the women in Afghanistan who had taken leadership positions on women's rights and employment for women. And she got access to - she was leaked what was called a kill list of 125 women who were targeted for assassination. And she wanted to get them out. And she did some very creative things to do that - I think too complicated for us to get into the full story. But the part that I found just really fascinating was there was a whole plan in effect for a lot of these women to temporarily be flown to Albania. But they didn't have visas from Albania, and the Taliban were preventing these women from leaving unless they had a visa. So talk about the plan that people came up with to get around that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And Biden, having seen this level of humanitarian desperation and absorbing all of these political blows that he's taking from his own party, from the Republicans, from media, decides that no plane is"}
{"id": "1199461671", "date": "2023-09-14", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "'The Last Politician' author shares stories behind Biden's successes and failures", "question_index": 31, "text": "So the bar code looked like, yeah, visas have stuff like that. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So Hillary had set up a network of safe houses. She'd hired military contractors. She'd procured planes from foreign governments in order to get women out. And so they were stuck in this positi"}
{"id": "1199461671", "date": "2023-09-14", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "'The Last Politician' author shares stories behind Biden's successes and failures", "question_index": 32, "text": "Yeah. I guess the Taliban didn't have a way of translating what the barcode said.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That looks very official."}
{"id": "1199461671", "date": "2023-09-14", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "'The Last Politician' author shares stories behind Biden's successes and failures", "question_index": 33, "text": "I just want to say about Hillary Clinton - she no longer had an official government role or an official government responsibility to help women get out of Afghanistan. But she did remarkable things to get them out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Well, you have the Taliban, who are peasants who'd been fighting in the countryside who suddenly were in Kabul for the first time, having to make these decisions about who to get out. So someth"}
{"id": "1199461671", "date": "2023-09-14", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "'The Last Politician' author shares stories behind Biden's successes and failures", "question_index": 34, "text": "Was this a public story before you wrote about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And she did it in ways that put her at cross purposes with the Biden administration. That national security adviser Jake Sullivan, who was a protege of Hillary Clinton's, called her to reprimand her f"}
{"id": "1199461671", "date": "2023-09-14", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "'The Last Politician' author shares stories behind Biden's successes and failures", "question_index": 35, "text": "My guest is Franklin Foer, author of the new book \"The Last Politician: Inside Joe Biden's White House And The Struggle For America's Future.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It wasn't. In the course of doing my reporting about Afghanistan, I would hear these stories about how the White House was talking about the Hillary Clinton groups. And I would hear people in the NGO "}
{"id": "1199461671", "date": "2023-09-14", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "'The Last Politician' author shares stories behind Biden's successes and failures", "question_index": 36, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview that we recorded yesterday with Franklin Foer, author of the new book \"The Last Politician: Inside Joe Biden's White House And The Struggle For America's Future.\" He's a staff writer for The Atlantic. During the Trump administration, you investigated ties between the Trump campaign and Russia. You wrote about the Mueller report, and before that, the Mueller investigation. And you wrote extensively about Paul Manafort, a former campaign manager for Trump who's now doing time in prison. The Mueller report didn't fundamentally change things within the Trump administration. Now, you might disagree with that, so say so if you disagree.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It wasn't. In the course of doing my reporting about Afghanistan, I would hear these stories about how the White House was talking about the Hillary Clinton groups. And I would hear people in the NGO "}
{"id": "1199461671", "date": "2023-09-14", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "'The Last Politician' author shares stories behind Biden's successes and failures", "question_index": 37, "text": "And now Trump is indicted in Georgia on conspiracy to overturn the election. He's indicted by Special Counsel Jack Smith for conspiring to subvert American democracy. I wonder what it's like to witness now, after the presidency, efforts to hold Trump to account.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it didn't change anything within the Trump administration at all. So, no, I don't disagree."}
{"id": "1199461671", "date": "2023-09-14", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "'The Last Politician' author shares stories behind Biden's successes and failures", "question_index": 38, "text": "Why do you consider it to be the most painful moment?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I continue to think that this is the most important thing in American life, that there was lawlessness that happened at industrial scale. There was an attempt to fraudulently subvert an American elect"}
{"id": "1199461671", "date": "2023-09-14", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "'The Last Politician' author shares stories behind Biden's successes and failures", "question_index": 39, "text": "You mean among his base and voters.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because he seems to be getting away with it politically."}
{"id": "1199461671", "date": "2023-09-14", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "'The Last Politician' author shares stories behind Biden's successes and failures", "question_index": 40, "text": "Well, Franklin Foer, thank you so much for coming back to FRESH AIR. It's always a pleasure to talk with you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Among voters, right, that he - you know, I think that it's just an incredible fact that a guy who is being indicted for all of these things, and when the case against him is so crystalline in so many "}
{"id": "1199461671", "date": "2023-09-14", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "'The Last Politician' author shares stories behind Biden's successes and failures", "question_index": 41, "text": "Franklin Foer is a staff writer for The Atlantic and author of the new book \"The Last Politician: Inside Joe Biden's White House And The Struggle For America's Future.\" We recorded our interview yesterday. If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, like this week's interview with Bethann Hardison, who started modeling in the late '60s and describes herself as the first Black-Black-looking model, or casting director Allison Jones, who cast \"Freaks And Geeks,\" \"The Office,\" \"Veep,\" \"The 40-year-old Virgin,\" \"Superbad\" and many more films and TV shows, including the \"Barbie\" movie, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. And don't forget about our newsletter. You can subscribe for free at whyy.org/freshair.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much."}
{"id": "1199461671", "date": "2023-09-14", "guest": "Franklin Foer", "title": "'The Last Politician' author shares stories behind Biden's successes and failures", "question_index": 42, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Ann Marie Baldonado, Therese Madden, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. FRESH AIR's co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much."}
{"id": "1199502635", "date": "2023-09-15", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Hollywood relies on China to stay afloat. What does that mean for movies?", "question_index": 0, "text": "Erich Schwartzel, welcome to FRESH AIR. How did you start noticing the Chinese influence on American films when you started to be The Wall Street Journal's reporter on the Hollywood industry?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. There's a practice in Hollywood of film studios relying on the Chinese market to break even. But in order for movies to be shown in China, filmmakers often have to"}
{"id": "1199502635", "date": "2023-09-15", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Hollywood relies on China to stay afloat. What does that mean for movies?", "question_index": 1, "text": "So just give us a sense of what you think China's political motivation is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It started in small ways. I joined the Journal in 2013, and I would have this morning routine of checking the trade publications, and there would be these notices - you know, Chinese actress Fan Bingb"}
{"id": "1199502635", "date": "2023-09-15", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Hollywood relies on China to stay afloat. What does that mean for movies?", "question_index": 2, "text": "So Chinese influence is especially noticeable in action films, franchise films, blockbusters of all sorts. That's where the big money is. So I want you to give us a tour of, you know, a recent or fairly recent movie in which you see a lot of Chinese influence 'cause I know you've been seeing a lot of movies looking for that influence.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think since the start, as China has broadened its ambitions on the world stage and tried to become a bigger and bigger player in global politics, it has seen how culture can play a huge role in help"}
{"id": "1199502635", "date": "2023-09-15", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Hollywood relies on China to stay afloat. What does that mean for movies?", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. I wear my X-ray goggles..."}
{"id": "1199502635", "date": "2023-09-15", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Hollywood relies on China to stay afloat. What does that mean for movies?", "question_index": 4, "text": "So did that \"Transformers\" film do well in China?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...When I go to the movies now, and I can see the Chinese cellphone, you know, even if it's blurred in the frame because you're right; you'll start to see it everywhere. And I think there was this mom"}
{"id": "1199502635", "date": "2023-09-15", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Hollywood relies on China to stay afloat. What does that mean for movies?", "question_index": 5, "text": "So, you know, these deals between China and Hollywood - Hollywood stands to make money or stood to make money on those deals. For China, it was a way to get more Chinese elements into American films, but also, it was good for the Chinese box office. China was making money from these films, too. We'll get into all of that. But so you gave the example of this \"Transformers\" movie where the studio really catered to China. It did well in China. Let's compare that to \"Spider-Man: No Way Home,\" which was - which has been the biggest success box office-wise in America during the pandemic era. How did it do in China? And I'll answer my question. It didn't do at all in China. Like, why hasn't it shown in China?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a massive success, and it ended up making more money than every previous installment. And I think critically for the producers at Paramount Pictures, which released the film, it helped them rep"}
{"id": "1199502635", "date": "2023-09-15", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Hollywood relies on China to stay afloat. What does that mean for movies?", "question_index": 6, "text": "Or not letting them into the country.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a, well, let's say, $400 million question right now because that's about how much money it probably could have expected to make in China. You're right. This new \"Spider-Man\" movie, which has al"}
{"id": "1199502635", "date": "2023-09-15", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Hollywood relies on China to stay afloat. What does that mean for movies?", "question_index": 7, "text": "China used to keep out American films. The leadership in China wanted Chinese people to see basically Chinese propaganda films. That started to change in the '90s. Why did it start to change then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "1199502635", "date": "2023-09-15", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Hollywood relies on China to stay afloat. What does that mean for movies?", "question_index": 8, "text": "What are some of the early deals that were negotiated between American Hollywood studios and the Chinese government to allow American films into China but only under certain circumstances?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It started in 1994. And a couple things were happening at the time. China's economy was modernizing and opening up to the world. This is a time when companies like Boeing were moving into China. And y"}
{"id": "1199502635", "date": "2023-09-15", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Hollywood relies on China to stay afloat. What does that mean for movies?", "question_index": 9, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Erich Schwartzel, author of the new book \"Red Carpet: Hollywood China, And The Global Battle For Cultural Supremacy.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The primary deal was struck in 1994. And that had started to allow 10 films a year onto Chinese screens. And that hummed along for a while until 2012, when there was a significant expansion of that de"}
{"id": "1199502635", "date": "2023-09-15", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Hollywood relies on China to stay afloat. What does that mean for movies?", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Erich Schwartzel, author of the new book \"Red Carpet: Hollywood, China, And The Global Battle For Cultural Supremacy.\" He writes about the business of Hollywood for The Wall Street Journal. As China starts opening up its theaters to American movies, it also starts exerting control over those movies. For example, there were two movies in the '90s that had to do with the Dalai Lama. There was Martin Scorsese's \"Kundun,\" and then there was the film \"Seven Years In Tibet.\" China didn't let either of those movies in because, you know, they - the Dalai Lama's living in exile and protesting against China's treatment of Buddhists. So those movies are shut out. And worse than that, the Chinese government threatens the companies that own the movie studios with boycotting their products. Can you talk about the financial disaster that companies were envisioning and how they responded?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The primary deal was struck in 1994. And that had started to allow 10 films a year onto Chinese screens. And that hummed along for a while until 2012, when there was a significant expansion of that de"}
{"id": "1199502635", "date": "2023-09-15", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Hollywood relies on China to stay afloat. What does that mean for movies?", "question_index": 11, "text": "So you can see how hard it must have been to greenlight a movie because you not only had to please, like, you know, like, producers and funders and the studio. You had to please the studio's parent company. You might not even know who the parent company was.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So this is - these two films, \"Kundun\" and \"Seven Years In Tibet,\" come out only three years after American movies are getting into China at all. And neither movie is put into production with C"}
{"id": "1199502635", "date": "2023-09-15", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Hollywood relies on China to stay afloat. What does that mean for movies?", "question_index": 12, "text": "For a movie executive to say that is amazing. You know, good news - nobody saw the film that we made.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. And I think there's another dynamic here at play, which is the executives at Disney who, when they heard about this film, \"Kundun,\" didn't even know what it was. I mean, that's how - that's h"}
{"id": "1199502635", "date": "2023-09-15", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Hollywood relies on China to stay afloat. What does that mean for movies?", "question_index": 13, "text": "And the censors have some very ambiguous guidelines, things like displaying passive or negative outlooks on life is not something that happens in China. Chinese people don't participate in bad habits. China is a place where rape or murder do not occur in grisly detail. So - like, or not shown in grisly detail. How do you - I mean, how does a moviemaker determine what's a passive or negative outlook according to Chinese censors or participating in bad habits according to Chinese censors? And besides, franchise films are all about negative outlooks on life and bad habits and grisly rape and murder. I mean, let's be honest. That's what they are.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's a literal list of rules that the censors in Beijing use as something of a checklist. So when a movie has finished filming and it is ready for release, a copy of it is sent to Beijing to the Mi"}
{"id": "1199502635", "date": "2023-09-15", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Hollywood relies on China to stay afloat. What does that mean for movies?", "question_index": 14, "text": "I see.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Often, the distinction is where such bad things are happening. And as long as they're not happening in China..."}
{"id": "1199502635", "date": "2023-09-15", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Hollywood relies on China to stay afloat. What does that mean for movies?", "question_index": 15, "text": "Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...It's kosher."}
{"id": "1199502635", "date": "2023-09-15", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Hollywood relies on China to stay afloat. What does that mean for movies?", "question_index": 16, "text": "You know, Hollywood studios would not stand, I don't think, in this day and age for censorship like this from American censors. They wouldn't go back to the days of the Hays Code, I don't think. But they've been willing to do this for China?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it - for example, the James Bond film \"Skyfall\" has a scene that I think no one who's familiar with James Bond would think twice about in which James Bond is breaking into a building and has to sho"}
{"id": "1199502635", "date": "2023-09-15", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Hollywood relies on China to stay afloat. What does that mean for movies?", "question_index": 17, "text": "Let's take another break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Erich Schwartzel, and he covers the movie industry for The Wall Street Journal. His new book is called \"Red Carpet: Hollywood, China, And The Global Battle For Cultural Supremacy.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. I mean, the economics have made it something of a no-brainer because China's box office has grown as America's box office has flatlined. And this is even pre-COVID. And around 2008 or 2009"}
{"id": "1199502635", "date": "2023-09-15", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Hollywood relies on China to stay afloat. What does that mean for movies?", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Erich Schwartzel, author of the new book \"Red Carpet: Hollywood, China, And The Global Battle For Cultural Supremacy.\" He covers the movie industry for The Wall Street Journal. Let's talk about a recent example of Chinese intervention in the American movie industry. And this is an example having to do with \"Star Wars: The Force Awakens.\" One of the stars of that film is the British Nigerian actor John Boyega. And in the Chinese poster for that film, his image, even though he's one of the stars, is shrunk and kind of in the background. Tell us the story behind that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. I mean, the economics have made it something of a no-brainer because China's box office has grown as America's box office has flatlined. And this is even pre-COVID. And around 2008 or 2009"}
{"id": "1199502635", "date": "2023-09-15", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Hollywood relies on China to stay afloat. What does that mean for movies?", "question_index": 19, "text": "It's just so interesting how studios can, like, really brag, like, oh, we're becoming inclusive. We have a diverse cast. That's so great. And then in China, it's like, well, you know, kind of keep the Black guy in the background because that's not going to go over well here.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. It was something that fans noticed right away when the poster was released in China. Boyega's face was about as prominent as BB-8, the little circular droid in the film. And the reason w"}
{"id": "1199502635", "date": "2023-09-15", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Hollywood relies on China to stay afloat. What does that mean for movies?", "question_index": 20, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I think - and I think another example of that is what the studios have had to do when it comes to portrayals of homosexuality on screen, another story and another theme that Hollywood has to"}
{"id": "1199502635", "date": "2023-09-15", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Hollywood relies on China to stay afloat. What does that mean for movies?", "question_index": 21, "text": "American movie studios go through all this effort to please China so that they can take advantage of this huge Chinese market for movies because when your story starts - the story that you're telling in your book starts, there aren't that many movie theaters. But by the time your story ends, the Chinese movie industry has really blown up. There's lots of movie theaters, lots of tickets being sold. So it's a really important market. But at some point, China decides it doesn't really want to import so many films anymore, and it kind of shuts the door on Hollywood. Why did it do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so audiences wouldn't even hear what he was saying. Something very similar happened with the movie \"Green Book,\" which has a scene in which the pianist, played by Mahershala Ali, is seen at a YMCA"}
{"id": "1199502635", "date": "2023-09-15", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Hollywood relies on China to stay afloat. What does that mean for movies?", "question_index": 22, "text": "So has it relied less on American movies, or has the government closed the door to American movies?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Chinese movies, over the past five or six years, have grown more and more commercial. I mean, when the story starts, China's output is still really medicinal and really, frankly, just pretty confined "}
{"id": "1199502635", "date": "2023-09-15", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Hollywood relies on China to stay afloat. What does that mean for movies?", "question_index": 23, "text": "Have recent American movies been shown in China? Have they gotten through?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's always a mixture of both, of market realities and government controls. And when the U.S. and China tensions started to really rise during the Trump administration, we saw walls come up on the kin"}
{"id": "1199502635", "date": "2023-09-15", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Hollywood relies on China to stay afloat. What does that mean for movies?", "question_index": 24, "text": "What impact is that having on the American movie industry?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There have been some American movies let into China over the past year. But the ones that the studios really care about getting in, the big, expensive movies like \"Black Widow\" or the \"Eternals,\" or e"}
{"id": "1199502635", "date": "2023-09-15", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Hollywood relies on China to stay afloat. What does that mean for movies?", "question_index": 25, "text": "Do you think we'll be seeing fewer or at least less expensive versions of franchise films?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it is - it has an immediate impact of depriving the studios of what was probably going to be hundreds of millions of dollars in box office grosses from the country. But it's also forced an exami"}
{"id": "1199502635", "date": "2023-09-15", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Hollywood relies on China to stay afloat. What does that mean for movies?", "question_index": 26, "text": "Well, this has been fascinating. I will start watching movies in a different way now", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "At this point, I think the appeal of China is still too great to completely ignore. I mean, the math is easy. You just need to remember one number, 1.4 billion. And I think there's still some hope tha"}
{"id": "1199502635", "date": "2023-09-15", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Hollywood relies on China to stay afloat. What does that mean for movies?", "question_index": 27, "text": ". Erich Schwartzel, it's been great to talk with you. Thank you so much, and thank you for your book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "At this point, I think the appeal of China is still too great to completely ignore. I mean, the math is easy. You just need to remember one number, 1.4 billion. And I think there's still some hope tha"}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Degenerate. That's what the Hitler regime called modern art and jazz. Jazz was especially hated because it was considered music by Jews and Black people. So the Third Reich outlawed jazz, but they also tried to use it as a weapon to weaken British and American resolve. They took popular tunes, rewrote the lyrics to belittle British Prime Minister Winston Churchill and American President Franklin Roosevelt and, of course, to demean Black people and Jewish people. These songs were played on the radio broadcast to Britain and the U.S. Scott Simon, the host of NPR's Weekend Edition Saturday, has a new audiobook about how the Nazis repurposed jazz into propaganda. I love the title of Scott's audiobook, \"Swingtime For Hitler,\" which is, of course, a play on the Mel Brooks comic production number \"Springtime For Hitler\" from his musical \"The Producers.\" Scott was formerly an NPR reporter and reported from war zones and heard propaganda in those contexts, but nothing like Nazi swing songs. His new audiobook is available at scribd.com That's S-C-R-I-B-D dot com. Scott, welcome back to FRESH AIR. It's so good to talk to you. It's been a long time.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 1, "text": "I think we should start with a disclaimer about how offensive these songs are and why it's important to hear them anyway. I'm going to let you do that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So good to talk to you. Yes. Thank you so much, Terry. So good to be with you."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 2, "text": "And why should we hear them anyway?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I will. You know, and we had the advantage of having the legend, Bill Kurtis, give voice to our trigger warning at the very top, saying, the following songs you're going to hear are in many ways offen"}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 3, "text": "So OK, I want to play an example of this Nazi jazz. So the songs basically take the melodies and sometimes even the arrangements of the original jazz song, but with really lame but very insulting lyrics.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because I think it's very good to try and understand what Nazi propaganda was trying to do, at least in this case. It was not - it was different than some other propaganda efforts they had. Radio was "}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 4, "text": "Repellent.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Repellent."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 5, "text": "Better word.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They're absolutely..."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 6, "text": "Utterly repellent. And a good example of that is their version of \"Makin' Whoopee.\" So here's what I want to do. I want to start with the original recording by Eddie Cantor. It was recorded in 1928 or '29. It's a song that zillions of people subsequently recorded, including Ray Charles. And I want to play the original because, A, Eddie Cantor was Jewish, and, B, the Nazi version refers to the original Eddie Cantor version. So let's start with the Eddie Cantor version of \"Makin' Whoopee.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Utterly repellent. Yes."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 7, "text": "So that was Eddie Cantor from the late 1920s, \"Makin' Whoopee.\" Here is the Nazi version, same melody, but with Nazi lyrics, and you'll hear they refer to Eddie Cantor at the very beginning. And I remind you, Eddie Cantor was Jewish. And I remind you also, these lyrics are repellent.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Another bride, another June, another sunny honeymoon, another season, another reason for makin' whoopee. A lot of shoes, a lot of rice. The groom is nervous. He answers twice. It\u2019s really ki"}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 8, "text": "OK. So that was the Nazi propaganda version of \"Makin' Whoopee\" featuring Charlie and His Orchestra. And the Frankie in that song refers to President Franklin Delano Roosevelt. And that Nazi version was from 1942. Joseph Goebbels, who was the head of propaganda under Hitler, decided to ban jazz. What did that mean exactly? How was it banned? What was it banned from?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Jews of USA have asked Eddie Cantor to write a new version of his famous old-timer \"Makin' Whoopee.\" In one of his latest programs on the air, he sang the following song. (Singing) Another war, an"}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 9, "text": "If you had a jazz record collection, were you expected to dispose of it or else get exposed by your neighbors who would rat you out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You couldn't perform it in clubs. You couldn't play it on the radio. In theory, you couldn't even sing it in your own homes. And there were people who informed against their neighbors on that. This wa"}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 10, "text": "So the band that we heard, Charlie and His Orchestra, was a band that was partly created by the Ministry of Propaganda. So some of the members were the original members of a real band. The head of the band was Jewish, so...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You were expected to get rid of it. And it must be said that recording culture, recording technology at that point was a lot more cumbersome. So we weren't dealing with people that had hundreds of rec"}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 11, "text": "Did anyone listen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They overthrew him. The - a player in his orchestra named Lutz Templin, for reasons I haven't been able to discover, whose nickname was Stumpy, lead a coup to overthrow the leader of their orchestra. "}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 12, "text": "Did the musicians in Charlie and His Orchestra support the regime that outlawed their own music? You say the singer was a sycophant, but what about the other musicians?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very few people listened. I think there were several reasons. One is, of course, if you're listening to music, shortwave is an iffy technology. It has whoops. It has whirs. It goes in and out. And peo"}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 13, "text": "Now, you covered, you know, wars and conflicts in Latin America, in Bosnia. You heard propaganda in those settings. How did what you heard when you were covering war and conflict compare with the kind of musical propaganda that we're hearing today?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that's hard to say. And one of the many reasons is, of course, we're talking about - the records of the group were, I think, studiously and assiduously destroyed as the Allies got closer. I th"}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 14, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Scott Simon, host of NPR's Weekend Edition Saturday and author of the new audiobook \"Swingtime For Hitler.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR. (SOUNDBTE OF ANAT COHEN'S \"NIGHTMARE\")", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, Charlie and His Orchestra was totally different when it comes to musical propaganda. What I have always heard in authoritarian governments overseas is something that's very strident, something tha"}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Scott Simon, the host of NPR's Weekend Edition Saturday. He has a new audiobook called \"Springtime For Hitler\" that's about how Hitler's Nazi regime banned jazz and then at the same time knew the power of the music. So they repurposed it using the melodies of the original jazz tunes and writing Nazi propaganda lyrics and broadcasting that via shortwave to America and Britain, trying to weaken the resolve of the Allies. I want to play another example of a hateful lyric, and this one is set to one of the most famous American songs, and it's \"St. Louis Blues.\" It was written by a Black composer...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, Charlie and His Orchestra was totally different when it comes to musical propaganda. What I have always heard in authoritarian governments overseas is something that's very strident, something tha"}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 16, "text": "...W.C. Handy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yeah. So all the more reason to, like, use this song to ridicule Black people. And that's what the song does. And so I want to remind people, these are offensive songs, and that's why we're playing them, to illustrate how offensive this Nazi propaganda music was. So do you want to say anything before we hear it, Scott?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "C. Handy. Yeah."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 18, "text": "All right. So let's hear it. And a lot of the Churchill songs were before America even entered the war. So it was easier and more relevant to ridicule Churchill than Roosevelt during those days. So this starts with a little spoken introduction. Here is Charlie And His Orchestra.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'll say this. What we hear in Charlie's treatment of \"St. Louis Blues,\" were utterly repellent and utterly offensive. You see, the whole concentration is on they think that they can make Britons and "}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 19, "text": "That was the Nazi propaganda song set to the melody of \"St. Louis Blues\" featuring Charlie And His Orchestra. Scott, that lyric is hateful, but they clean up the language. Like - it's like doggone instead of, you know, damn. And the lyric...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A Negro from the London docks, sings the blackout blues. (Singing) I hate to see the evening sun go down. Hate to see the evening sun go down. 'Cause the German, he done bombed this town. Feeling tomo"}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 20, "text": "Can I just point out how lame this lyric is? So the lyric to \"St. Louis Blues\" includes St. Louis woman with her diamond rings pulls that man around with her apron strings. So the Nazi version is that Churchill bad man with his wars and things...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I just noticed that. Thank you, Terry. You're right. On top of everything else, by the way, I must note, nobody loved the songs that lampooned Churchill more than Winston Churchill. He would"}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 21, "text": "...Pulls folks around by his apron strings. I don't think they even comprehended the original lyric 'cause...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 22, "text": "...The way they rework it...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 23, "text": "...Unless they're trying to say that oh, Churchill, he was so gay, he wore aprons. Like, is that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 24, "text": "No, I...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I don't think they were trying to say that. I mean, you know..."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 25, "text": "...Think they just don't comprehend the lyric and they don't know how to write a lyric.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I - it's..."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 26, "text": "They're tone deaf.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that's true."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 27, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's eighth grade..."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 28, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Lyric writing, and..."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 29, "text": "Well, let's take another break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Scott Simon, host of NPR's Weekend Edition Saturday and author of the new audiobook \"Swingtime For Hitler.\" And it's about the Nazi propaganda songs that were meant for the ears of Americans and the British during World War II. We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Young Stephen Sondheim in the eighth grade would have already been much better than that. It's interesting to me. British intelligence was convinced that they were using the songs to send messages "}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 30, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Scott Simon, host of NPR's Weekend Edition Saturday. He has a new audiobook called \"Swingtime For Hitler\" that's about the radio propaganda that was put out by the Nazis and by Japan during World War II. You know, we've been talking about, like, radio propaganda during World War II. But, you know, the Nazis not only outlawed jazz and then repurposed it for their own propaganda reasons and broadcast it to the U.S. and America via shortwave - I guess that's shortwave, not literally broadcast.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Young Stephen Sondheim in the eighth grade would have already been much better than that. It's interesting to me. British intelligence was convinced that they were using the songs to send messages "}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 31, "text": "But they outlawed...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 32, "text": "Yeah. But they outlawed modern art, too. But the really just, like, incredibly stupid thing that they did was - to show how degenerate modern art was and non...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, good point. Thank you."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 33, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They put on huge exhibits of all this degenerate..."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 34, "text": "Introducing people to this, like, horrible art that was, like, the most important art of the 20th century.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Disgusting art. Yeah."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 35, "text": "Well, Scott, I want to change subjects here.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, they had huge - you know, huge exhibits in Berlin and Munich and I think Leipzig, in Vienna - you know, the Picassos, the Chagalls, the Kandinskys, all the stuff, you know, which, by the way, they"}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 36, "text": "We've been talking about your new audiobook, \"Swingtime For Hitler.\" I'm going to change the subject to Tony Bennett.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 37, "text": "So you actually co-wrote a book with him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 38, "text": "How did you get to do that? I'll preface this by saying I - you know, I really love his music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 39, "text": "I interviewed him several times and was so - felt so privileged to be able to do that. How did you get to write a book with him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 40, "text": "How old was he when you worked with him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He liked my book about my mother's life and my last days with her called \"Unforgettable.\" And he knew that I was from - my family was from a show business background, my father a comedian, my mother w"}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 41, "text": "He had already, you know, written a memoir. I don't know. I can't remember if it was ghostwritten or what. But, you know, he had a memoir that was already published. So how forthcoming was he with you? Did you talk to him about his...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was approaching 90 at that point. So he would have been 88, 89."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 42, "text": "Yeah, and the trouble meant prison. What happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Signed autographs. She greeted U.S. soldiers. And it wasn't until she tried to come back to the United States that she got into trouble."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 43, "text": "...1945, have the Nazis - the Nazis are, like, about to lose at this point, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, she was put on trial for treason. And it's interesting because, of course, there are almost no recordings of the Tokyo Rose broadcasts, but she was convicted of one count of treason. The USS Ind"}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 44, "text": "So this is the end of his final broadcast, and his tone is a lot more serious in this, kind of grave.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, right. And as a matter of fact, French troops are advancing on them, and he's dead drunk along with his companions."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 45, "text": "So, Scott, do you know what happened to Lord Haw-Haw after the war?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Germany will live because the people of Germany have in them the secret of life - endurance, will and purpose. And therefore I say to you in these last words - you may not hear from me again for a few"}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 46, "text": "Among the many things I found, like, very strange about this story is that when Germany started losing the war, they drafted a lot of the Charlie musicians...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he went on the run with some of the other people there who worked on his program. And they were - I mean, this is a story you and I should take to heart because they ran into British soldiers wh"}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 47, "text": "...'Cause they were drafting everybody they could and replaced some of them with Jews from the concentration camps.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 48, "text": "Do you know what happened to the Charlie musicians after the war? You said they scattered, but, like, what became of them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Evelyn Kunneke, a great German jazz singer who had performed with some of the musicians, had a memoir in which she said that eventually the Charlie musicians - they were French, Polish, Jewish mu"}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 49, "text": "What?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, they scattered, and the individual musicians were not eager to step up and say, this is something that I did. Remember, the Allies were in charge of postwar Germany at that particular point. The"}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 50, "text": "Did they know who he was?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He became - yeah, Polydor Records in Germany."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 51, "text": "All of the audio clips that we've heard has been German propaganda meant for the ears of Americans and British during World War II to weaken their will. What was German propaganda in Germany like as broadcast on the radio?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course they knew who he was. Yeah, I mean, it was the Lutz Templin Orchestra. Well, he had - you know, the war was over. What can I tell you? The - it's - I think it was - they were - and I do not "}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 52, "text": "So interesting. Well, we have to take a short break here. When we come back, we're going to talk about Tokyo Rose and propaganda attempts from Japan during World War II. So let's take a short break, and then we'll talk some more. My guest is Scott Simon, the host of NPR's Weekend Edition Saturday. His new audiobook is called \"Swingtime For Hitler.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it was - I mean, it was it was Adolf Hitler 24/7 in many ways on German state radio. It was the Fuhrer's speeches. They also had - oh, they also had home programs, which gave recipes to German fam"}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 53, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Scott Simon, the host of NPR's Weekend Edition Saturday. He has a new audiobook called \"Swingtime For Hitler\" that's about how Hitler's Nazi regime banned jazz because they saw it as the music of Blacks and Jews. But then they repurposed jazz with new Nazi lyrics as propaganda to be heard by Americans and people in Britain. So I want to ask you about Japanese radio propaganda and Tokyo Rose, 'cause this is a similar but opposite approach.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it was - I mean, it was it was Adolf Hitler 24/7 in many ways on German state radio. It was the Fuhrer's speeches. They also had - oh, they also had home programs, which gave recipes to German fam"}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 54, "text": "But can I stop your second? So on her broadcast, she played real jazz recordings, not...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Similar but opposite. Well said, Terry. Tokyo Rose was actually the name that U.S. sailors hung on the voices of eight or nine women who broadcast for Radio Tokyo who called themselves Orphan Ann. The"}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 55, "text": "...Japanese propaganda versions, she...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. She..."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 56, "text": "...Played the real thing. So even though it was supposed to be Japanese propaganda, the soldiers - the American and English soldiers loved listening to her because...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 57, "text": "...She spoke English...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It was the real stuff."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 58, "text": "...And she played real songs. And it was, you know, it was music that they loved.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 59, "text": "Yeah. And the trouble meant prison. What happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep. They - she played the real, authentic music, and it was music that the sailors and the Marines of the United States and Britain and Australia loved. And she - they - but she became very popular, "}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 60, "text": "What did she do, like six years in prison?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. She was put on trial for treason. And it's interesting because, of course, there are almost no recordings of the Tokyo Rose broadcasts. But she was convicted of one count of treason. The USS Ind"}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 61, "text": "Yeah, I want you to tell that story. But first I want to say that, you know, one of the, like, real horrible ironies of this story is that, you know, Iva Toguri wanted to come back to the U.S. but she wasn't allowed to. So she was kind of drafted, it's my understanding, to be...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, six years in prison, as a matter of fact. And I must say, as I write in the audiobook - I don't know if you want me to go into this - but I had the privilege to know Iva Toguri."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 62, "text": "...Tokyo Rose. It's not what she wanted to be doing. She wanted to be back in America. Meanwhile, her parents, who were in America, were in a Japanese American internment camp. And I think her mother died in the camp.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 63, "text": "So tell the story of how you met her.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Her mother did die in the camp. And when she got out of prison, the family had relocated to Chicago. That's how I happened to grow up with a lot of Japanese American kids on the north side of Chicago."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 64, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Scott Simon, the host of NPR's Weekend Edition Saturday. His new audiobook is called \"Swingtime For Hitler.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I met her because I was a long-haired student radical and running an underground newspaper with a circulation of about 25 or 26. And I would walk up and down Clark Street and Lincoln Avenue and would "}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 65, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Scott Simon, host of NPR's Weekend Edition Saturday. He has a new audiobook called \"Swingtime For Hitler.\" That's about the radio propaganda that was put out by the Nazis and by Japan during World War II. You know, we've been talking about, like, radio propaganda during World War II. But, you know, the Nazis not only outlawed jazz and then repurposed it for their own propaganda reasons and broadcast it to the U.S. and America via shortwave - I guess that's shortwave, not literally broadcast.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I met her because I was a long-haired student radical and running an underground newspaper with a circulation of about 25 or 26. And I would walk up and down Clark Street and Lincoln Avenue and would "}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 66, "text": "But they outlawed...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 67, "text": "Yeah. But they outlawed modern art too. But the really just, like, incredibly stupid thing that they did was to show how degenerate modern art was and non-representative...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, good point. Thank you."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 68, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They put on huge exhibits of all this degenerate..."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 69, "text": "Introducing people to this, like, horrible art that was, like, the most important art of the 20th century.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Disgusting art. Yeah."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 70, "text": "Well, Scott, I want to change subjects here.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, they had huge - you know, huge exhibits in Berlin and Munich and, I think, Leipzig and Vienna. You know, the Picassos, the Chagalls, the Kandinskys, all the stuff, you know, which, by the way, the"}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 71, "text": "We've been talking about your new audiobook, \"Swingtime For Hitler.\" I'm going to change the subject to Tony Bennett.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 72, "text": "So you actually co-wrote a book with him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 73, "text": "How did you get to do that? I'll preface this by saying I - you know, I really love his music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 74, "text": "I interviewed him several times and was so - felt so privileged to be able to do that. How did you get to write a book with him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 75, "text": "How old was he when you worked with him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He liked my book about my mother's life and my last days with her, called \"Unforgettable.\" And he knew that I was from - my family was from a show business background - my father a comedian, my mother"}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 76, "text": "He had already, you know, written a memoir. I don't know - I can't remember if it was ghostwritten or what. But, you know, he had a memoir that was already published. So how forthcoming was he with you? Did you talk to him about his own life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was approaching 90 at that point. So he would have been 88, 89."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 77, "text": "Had he talked about drugs and alcohol as being a problem in his life before the book?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And he was forthcoming. He had had some problems with drinking and drugs. He had had some problems with celebrity, which he thought was all caught up with drinking and drugs and becoming a celeb"}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 78, "text": "Oh, no, he didn't talk about that with me. But, you know, I remember reading - I think it was in The New York Times obituary - about how he had, you know, written in his book about drugs and alcohol. And I thought - 'cause I had read his memoir and interviewed him for that, you know, the first memoir. And I thought, could I possibly have skipped over that part, you know, 'cause I don't remember reading that? And I realized, oh, it's your book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Don't think so. I don't think so. I don't want to say he never did it if he was on with you, but I don't think so."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 79, "text": "And Danny recalibrated Tony Bennett's career. I think it was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think he wanted to talk about it. I think that's one of the reasons why he wanted to do the book. I think he wanted to talk about it. I - he loved his son and his daughter. I think he felt a great g"}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 80, "text": "...His idea...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 81, "text": "...Yeah, to reach a younger audience through, like, duets and stuff like that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Brilliant manager. Yes, absolutely."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 82, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, absolutely."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 83, "text": "Yeah. Do you think that Tony Bennett talked to you about drugs and alcohol in part because what did he have left to lose? I mean, he was already - like, he and Sinatra were the kings of American popular song. And Tony was the one who survived, who was still alive. And his career was nearing its end. His life was nearing its end. So it couldn't really be held against him anymore. And he'd been sober for, you know, a long time, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely brilliant management decisions that Danny made. Absolutely."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 84, "text": "Yeah. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A long time, yeah. No, I think that probably had something to do with it. But I - again, I come back to just the personal sense I had of the man, that he also wanted to thank his family."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 85, "text": "Well, Scott, it's been a pleasure talking with you. Thanks for doing this, and congratulations on the audiobook.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, you know, I think he'd reached the point in his life where nothing was more important than that."}
{"id": "1200547564", "date": "2023-09-20", "guest": "Scott Simon", "title": "'Swingtime for Hitler' explores the Nazis use of jazz as a propaganda tool", "question_index": 86, "text": "Scott Simon hosts NPR's Weekend Edition Saturday. His new audiobook is called \"Swingtime For Hitler.\" It's published by Scribd at scribd.com. That's scribd.com. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be Leslie Jones. She's written a new memoir chronicling her life and rise to fame. She holds the distinction of having become the oldest person ever to join the cast of \"Saturday Night Live\" when she was 47. For years, she worked odd jobs to get by while doing comedy shows and clubs big and small throughout the country. I hope you'll join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram @nprfreshair. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Ann Marie Baldonado, Therese Madden, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, a real pleasure to talk to you. Thank you so much."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Allison Russell, sings original songs in a powerful voice that rings out. Some of her songs are about a subject that many people feel they have to keep secret. She was physically and sexually abused by her adoptive father throughout her childhood until she left home at age 15. She has a song about one night when she was in high school and had to escape her father. She ran to the home of her girlfriend, her first love, and tapped on her window, asking to be let in. As we learn in other songs, some nights she escaped her father by sleeping in the park, in a cemetery, or sheltering in a cathedral. She also has songs about learning that she's capable of being loved and reentering her body after having had to mentally detach from it to survive. Her mother is white. Her biological father is Black, and her adoptive father is a white racist. She sings about that, too. After performing in bands for many years, she now records under her own name. Her first solo album, \"Outside Child,\" released in 2021, was nominated for three Grammys, won the Americana Award for album of the year and won a Juno Award - the Canadian equivalent of a Grammy - for contemporary roots album of the year. Russell grew up in Montreal. I expect her new album, which is called \"The Returner,\" will get multiple nominations and awards, too. It's really good. She's going to sing some of her songs for us, but let's start with the opening track of \"The Returner.\" The lyric is about saying goodbye to her traumatic past. The song is called \"Springtime.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 1, "text": "That's \"Springtime\" from Allison Russell's new album, \"The Returner.\" Allison Russell, it is such a pleasure to have you on the show. I love your voice, and I love your songs. Thank you so much for being here.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) So long. Farewell. Adieu, adieu. So long. Farewell. Adieu, adieu. To that tunnel I went through. To that tunnel I went through. And my reward, my recompense? My reward, my recompense? Spring"}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 2, "text": "That song is about learning to live in your body again after having to dissociate from it when you were abused. How did you start writing such personal songs, sharing your story about being abused by your stepfather who became your adoptive father?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Did you keep it a secret because you wanted to, or did your father threaten you that if you said anything to anyone, you would face severe consequences?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it's survival, in a sense. You know, it's - and it's also reclamation. And it's a way to - I was trained to silence, you know? I was conditioned to continually lie. And so, for me, break"}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 4, "text": "I have never heard a story like that where you were trained from the age of 5 to play court. And what's really interesting about that, too, is that later, you actually testified in court against your father after your parents took custody of your niece and nephew, who you were very close to, and you learned that your father was alone with them or at least with one of them. So after being trained to, like, lie in court, what was it like for you to actually testify against him so that he would not have custody?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I was threatened. And I was also sort of brainwashed over many years. Things like playing court, where after a violation he would have me play court where he would pretend to be, you know, a poli"}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 5, "text": "I could imagine, 'cause he told you here's what you have to say, and you totally defied him...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, luckily for me, I never actually had to testify. I charged him, and the investigators did such an excellent job of finding, unfortunately, other women that he had abused, the case was not just m"}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 6, "text": "...And brought him down for that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yeah. Right. So I want to play another song, and this might be my favorite song on the album, although it's hard to choose a favorite with so many good songs. But it's called \"Demons,\" and it's really about exorcising those demons and how they don't like sunlight. When you sing the word demons in the chorus, you sound possessed. Can you - before we hear it, can you describe writing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Held him accountable."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 8, "text": "So let's hear it. This is Allison Russell from her new album, \"The Returner.\" The song is \"Demons.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was actually joyful to write it. It was quite playful to write it. I'm playing with a lot of different imagery. The idea that, first of all, Black women, queer women, queer people have been d"}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 9, "text": "That was Allison Russell from her new album, \"The Returner.\" And the song is called \"Demons.\" I just love how you sound on that, and I love the song. So what was the meaning of \"Demons\" to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Demons. Demons. Demons. Demons. Coming up from behind. Demons. Demons. Demons. Demons. Been there all my life. Demons. Demons. Demons. Demons. Surely can't outride 'em. Oh, turn around. Look"}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 10, "text": "To escape your abusive father, you slept in a cemetery, in - you shelter in a cathedral. You slept in a park. Did you feel safe?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To me, \"Demons\" is so layered. It's the inner demons. It's the ways that we are demonized unfairly. Moving through the world as a queer Black woman, I have experienced a lot of that. I've been, you kn"}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 11, "text": "I want to point out you grew up in Montreal. It gets cold there...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, strangely, I felt so much safer sleeping in the cemetery than I ever did in the home of the people that called themselves my family. And I was so lucky to be in Montreal. You know, that city"}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 12, "text": "...Really cold.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it does."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 13, "text": "So you can only sleep outside for a certain...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Exactly."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 14, "text": "...Time of year.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 15, "text": "But really, when you were sleeping in a cemetery surrounded by graves - some people are just spooked in sunlight in a cemetery. Did you feel comfortable there? Did you have a hiding place?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 16, "text": "All right. Well, let's take a short break here and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Allison Russell. Her new album is called \"The Returner.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I felt so comfortable. I mean, the Mount Royal Cemetery is so beautiful. It's, like, a nature preserve as well. So there's - you know, you are surrounded by trees and grass. It's incredibly peaceful. "}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Allison Russell. Her new album is called \"The Returner.\" Allison, your father - your biological father - was Black and from Grenada. You never met him until you were 30. Your mother was a teenager. She was 17 when she had you. And then your stepfather became your adoptive father after she married him when you were in foster care. Your adoptive father was a white racist. What message did he give you about being Black?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I felt so comfortable. I mean, the Mount Royal Cemetery is so beautiful. It's, like, a nature preserve as well. So there's - you know, you are surrounded by trees and grass. It's incredibly peaceful. "}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 18, "text": "I want you to play a song for us. You brought your banjo with you. It's one of the instruments you play. You also play clarinet and guitar. So \"Eve Was Black\" is about what we've been talking about. So would you - before you play it, would you talk to us about writing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That I was less than human and that I was lucky to be raised by him because I didn't have the disadvantage of being raised within Black culture. These are his words, obviously, not mine. You know, he "}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 19, "text": "One of the lines in this song that we're about to hear is, do you hate, or do you lust? And I kind of think you gave us the answer...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It started off as a poem and then slowly evolved into a song. And my dear chosen sisters, SistaStrings, help me with the first iteration of it. And it became clear to me that it lived in the world of "}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 20, "text": "...Already.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 21, "text": "He did both.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 22, "text": "He hated, and he lusted.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 23, "text": "And he was able to fulfill that lust with you because of how much he hated Black people and saw them as less than human. So would you play \"Eve Was Black\" for us, and I'm going to ask you to just do an excerpt, because there's so much I want to squeeze into this interview.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Thank you, Allison. That is a powerful song. And I should mention that the recorded version of that song is on her new album, \"The Returner.\" So your adoptive father was from a sundown town in the U.S., and a sundown town was a town where Black people are told you can't be here after the sun goes down. Where did he grow up? Like, what city? What state?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Happy to. (Singing) Eve was Black. Haven't you heard? The mother of all was dark and good. Eve was Black. Didn't you know? Is that why you hate my Black skin so? Is that why you hate my Black sk"}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 25, "text": "There's just one other thing I want to mention about him is that I don't know when this was, but after you had moved far away, a woman came forward and accused him of sexually assaulting her, and he did time for it. I think he was sentenced for three years.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He grew up in Indiana. In White County, Ind. I'm not sure of the exact - I know the family moved around a lot."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 26, "text": "Oh, that's how it happened. So it was through you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so I charged him. And during the investigative process, the reason I didn't have to go to court was because the investigator did a very thorough and good job and found other women that he had ab"}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 27, "text": "Good for you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Through the investigation. Correct."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 28, "text": "So did he serve the whole three years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 29, "text": "Do you know if he has, in fact, reoffended?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He did. He could have been out in nine months with - if they had granted his first parole, but the prison psychiatrist believed that he was a high risk of reoffending and so recommended that he serve "}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 30, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Allison Russell. Her new album is called \"The Returner.\" We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I really hope not. I know that he is now, you know, he is on a list of sex offenders. He has to check in with the police. He's not allowed to be unsupervised with children. So I have high hopes that h"}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 31, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with songwriter, singer and musician Allison Russell. Her first solo album, \"Outside Child,\" was released in 2021 and had several songs about being abused by her adoptive father throughout her childhood. She left home when she was 15. \"Outside Child\" was nominated for three Grammys, won the Americana award for album of the year and won a Juno award, the Canadian equivalent of a Grammy, for contemporary roots album of the year. Her new album is called \"The Returner.\" It has several songs about healing from the pain of her childhood and casting out the demons. I want to play another song, and this is another of my favorites, and this is from your first album - your first solo album - and that album is called \"Outside Child.\" The song is called \"Persephone.\" And this is a song about a night you had to escape your adoptive father when you were in high school. And so you tapped on the window of your girlfriend, your first love, and asked her to let you in because if you stayed home, you thought your adoptive father may have killed you. And in the lyric, you sing, blood on my shirt, two ripped buttons, might have killed me that time if I let him. Nowhere to go and had to get away from him. So these - I'm quoting these a little out of context, but those are things - some of the things you say in the lyric. So let's hear it, and then we'll talk about it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Now I let go everything that I've known. Let it go on. Let it roll out with the tide. I can't think of a thing that hasn't been shot through with pain. Like a nightingale's song in the dead "}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 32, "text": "That was \"Persephone\" from my guest, Allison Russell's first album, which is called \"Outside Child.\" That is such a catchy song and so troubling at the same time. And I'm wondering, did your father know you had a girlfriend?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Blood on my shirt, two ripped buttons. Might\u2019ve killed me that time, oh, if I\u2019d let him. He\u2019s slow when he\u2019s drunk, and he lost his grip on me. Now I\u2019m running down La Rue St. Paul trying to"}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 33, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, because he would tap - wiretap the phone in our house. And this was, you know..."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 34, "text": "As if things...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Back in the day..."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 35, "text": "...Weren't bad enough.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...When we had landlines."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 36, "text": "What was your father's reaction - your adoptive father's reaction to knowing you had a girlfriend?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So, yeah, he knew. I - it's funny, to me, it's a joyful song. You're right. It start - the first stanza is disturbing because it is being, you know, clear about the abuse that was occurring. But"}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 37, "text": "I can imagine the fury was on two levels. One, that he had competition, 'cause he probably felt like he owned your body but also, competition from a girl.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Fury. And I left home very shortly thereafter."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 38, "text": "Were you in foster care? Is that what you're talking about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I think that, yeah, he certainly is someone who his violence is directed at women. But also, I wasn't fully human to him. I mean, this was a man raised in a sundown town, born in 1936, who b"}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 39, "text": "And why were you there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I was in foster care for three years before I went back to live with my mother and her new husband."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 40, "text": "What kind of harmful?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because my mother was a teenager when she had me and had no support. And in those days of the early '80s in Catholic Quebec, to be an unwed mother - to be an unwed white mother with a Black child was "}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 41, "text": "Was she abused by your adoptive father?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hitting me. You know, burned a cigarette on my skin one time. You know, doing things that were inappropriate, leaving a baby alone for hours and hours."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 42, "text": "Is that, do you think, why she didn't intervene 'cause she was such a victim, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 43, "text": "Are they - are your parents still married?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I - you know, I think there's a lot of layers. I think she was suffering from sort of a doublethink, as well. And yes, she was also a victim, herself. She was not - she's also not, you know, I"}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 44, "text": "Do you keep in touch with them at all?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They are. Yep. She still lives with him."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 45, "text": "How did you survive being traumatized by both of your parents?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I keep in touch with my mother, but I don't have contact with my adoptive father."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 46, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Music, I think."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 47, "text": "I'm sorry. This is so horrifying. I'm so glad you survived it. And you're also giving us the gift of your music. It's remarkable.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Music and art. I mean, my earliest childhood memories that don't involve trauma involve music. And music was always how I felt love and how I felt safe and how I translated anything that was scary or "}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 48, "text": "When you left Montreal to get away from your parents, you moved to Vancouver, which is kind of as far away as you can get in Canada from where you grew up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, music is the healer, you know? And children, I think, are incredibly resilient. And we find - we look and find goodness. And I was lucky in that I had a grandmother who was loving. You know, I h"}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 49, "text": "And you started, I think, like, in the folk music scene. And one of your instruments, as we heard, is banjo. Did you feel like that was going to be your home, more, like, folk-oriented music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 50, "text": "What", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, to me, I have a broader definition of folk and Americana probably than most people. I think that it is a kind of - such a vast umbrella. It encompasses every genre of song, really. And"}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 51, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, to me, I have a broader definition of folk and Americana probably than most people. I think that it is a kind of - such a vast umbrella. It encompasses every genre of song, really. And"}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 52, "text": "Right. And your band is called the Rainbow...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Kermit the Frog. I didn't know anything about the Black diaspora, growing up with white supremacists. I didn't know anything about the cultural heritage connection of the banjo being, you know, the - "}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 53, "text": "The Rainbow Coalition. Yeah, yeah, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Coalition."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 54, "text": "Is that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's a nod to both..."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 55, "text": "Congratulations on probably being the only person ever to bring together Fred Hampton and Kermit in one tribute.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Jim Henson, Kermit the Frog and, of course, Fred Hampton and the Black Panthers, who were able to form an incredibly healing, harm-reducing coalition between the Black Panthers, the Young Lords, wh"}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 56, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Allison Russell, and her new album is called \"The Returner.\" We have more music and conversation coming up after a very short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that they're very closely related in spirit. I really do."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 57, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Allison Russell, a great singer and songwriter whose new album is called \"The Returner.\" So you write songs with your husband. And I'm interested in what that process is like. And I should say, in case people are confused, you identify as queer, and eventually married your husband.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that they're very closely related in spirit. I really do."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 58, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think sometimes people get confused about orientation and commitment."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 59, "text": "Well put.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's like, when you - when a straight person gets married, they're still straight. When a queer person gets married, they're still queer. You know what I mean?"}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 60, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's just what it is. But it turned out - no one was more surprised than I when I ended up falling in love with a man - a straight man - a straight white man."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 61, "text": "OK. I want you to sing another song for us, if that's OK with you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All of these things were surprising, but JT has a very strong inner goddess, so..."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 62, "text": "And it's a song called \"You're Not Alone,\" and it was released as a single with Brandi Carlile. And to me, this sounds like a song that's, in part, dedicated to your daughter, but also dedicated to everybody who is a survivor of abuse and to all the children who are enduring it now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd be happy to."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 63, "text": "Would you sing \"You're Not Alone\" for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is all of that, but it's really for all of us. In fact, we're all survivors. We're all returners of some kind. There's not a human on the planet that gets out of this life without experiencing trau"}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 64, "text": "Thank you for doing that. Did you write that with Brandi Carlile, who duets with you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, be happy to. (Playing banjo, singing) Hey, my little evening star, how bright you are. Anywhere you go, you're not alone. Wish that I could keep you from sorrow and harm. None of us is here for "}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 65, "text": "...On the recording?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No..."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 66, "text": "Oh...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I wrote it on my own, and I actually wrote it during the \"Songs Of Our Native Daughters\" sessions. And it was originally - I originally recorded it with Our Native Daughters - Rhiannon Giddens, Amy"}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 67, "text": "...OK. You know, when I first heard you sing, I thought of Rhiannon Giddens because I felt like there was a similarity in your voices. And then I learned that you had actually performed together and recorded together.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 68, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. She's my chosen sister. I love her deeply."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 69, "text": "Good, good, good. So you're the mother of a daughter named Ida who is how old?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We've been friends - very, very close friends and chosen sisters since 2006."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 70, "text": "Did you always want to be a mother, or growing up with the parents that you did, did you not want to have a - you know, a nuclear family?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She's 9 years old now."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 71, "text": "What were your fears about becoming a mother?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I never, ever, ever thought I would become a mother. In fact, I emphatically believed I would not. And Ida was a joyful accident. She was a birth control pill fail. I'm here to tell all of you that bi"}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 72, "text": "And none of that happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That I would have a psychotic break, that I would, you know, somehow repeat the abuses of my childhood, that I wouldn't be able to break the cycles of abuse, that I wouldn't be a worthy mother, that I"}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 73, "text": "You met your biological father, who is Black and from Grenada, when you were 30. What was it like to meet him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No. It was the most joyful pregnancy. I am very, very - it was very - it was a joyful birth. You know, we - it was - and she's just a miraculous being. And I'm so grateful to be her mother."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 74, "text": "And is he, like, a really big contrast to the father who raised you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was really surreal. And in the end, very, very joyful. I look very much like him. I sound very much like him. We have similar personalities. It was a really - a real lesson in nurture, sure, but na"}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 75, "text": "My understanding is, from what I've read, that your mother, when she became pregnant, never told your biological father.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Complete contrast. He is the furthest thing from abusive. He is loving. He has a wonderful wife. I now have a wonderful stepmother, Ida's Nana, Tessa, who - they've been together since I was 2 years o"}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 76, "text": "He must have been very surprised to hear from you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not right away, no. Not until it was too late, I guess. And she told him that she'd given me up for adoption, which was not true. When I went into foster care, she told him that she had given me up in"}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 77, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Allison Russell. Her new album is called \"The Returner.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that, you know, it's an interesting thing. My siblings - my paternal siblings grew up knowing that I existed. He talked about me to his whole family. You know, they grew up knowing they had a "}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 78, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Allison Russell. Her new album is called \"The Returner.\" You probably don't know the answer to this, but what do you think your adoptive father's reaction is to your songs about how he abused you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Hey, hey, hey, hey."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 79, "text": "Right. I guess you can forgive him without contacting him, forgive him in your heart...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know if he's listened to them or not, and I have never inquired from my mother. I don't - I'm not that interested, to be honest. And, you know, there's - I'm struggling right now with what tru"}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 80, "text": "...But not have to talk with him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 81, "text": "I want to close with a song that's the final track, and that seems fitting, from your new album, \"The Returner.\" And this is called \"Requiem.\" And would you tell us about writing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I do have forgiveness and understanding of the fact that this is also - I mean, everyone is still a child in their spirit, right? He was a very severely abused child himself, and he paid that "}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 82, "text": "And the backup singers on this track include Wendy & Lisa, famous from Prince's band, and Brandi Carlile.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. JT and I wrote this one. We were very much feeling rocked by the violence in schools - the gun violence in schools. We were thinking about the parents that have to survive their children, which "}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 83, "text": "Yeah, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Brandy Clark and Hozier, as well."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 84, "text": "Right, right. Your band. Well, before we hear it, I just want to say thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, of course, all the women in the Rainbow Coalition."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 85, "text": "Thank you so much. It was so great to talk with you and to hear you sing in our studio. And your music's just wonderful, and I'm grateful for it. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 86, "text": "So here's Allison Russell from the final track of her new album, \"The Returner.\" And the track is called \"Requiem.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's such an honor speaking with you. Thank you."}
{"id": "1202020904", "date": "2023-09-27", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 87, "text": "That's \"Requiem\" from Allison Russell's new album, \"The Returner.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, it's handy when you use facial recognition technology to log on to your phone or a website. But what about when strangers or corporations can use it to identify you? What happens to your privacy? My guest will be New York Times tech reporter Kashmir Hill, author of \"Your Face Belongs to Us.\" She'll talk about the capabilities and consequences of facial recognition technology. I hope you'll join us. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Ann Marie Baldonado, Therese Madden, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley, and Susan Nyakundi. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Oh, I know your way is hard to see today. Bullets, they fly faster than mother's lullabies. And the sparrows cannot sing, for it is theirs to bring the souls of those lost babies back to the"}
{"id": "1202310781", "date": "2023-09-28", "guest": "Kashmir Hill", "title": "Exposing the secretive company at the forefront of facial recognition technology", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Facial recognition technology is convenient when you use it to unlock your phone or log into an app. But you might be surprised to know that your face is most likely already in a facial recognition database that can be used to identify who you are without you even being aware it's happening or knowing who's using it and why. A company expanding the technological possibilities of this technology and testing its legal and ethical limits is Clearview AI. It's a startup whose clients already include some law enforcement and government agencies. If you haven't already heard of it, it's in part because the company didn't want you to know it existed. It did its best to remain secretive until it was exposed by my guest, Kashmir Hill. She's a New York Times tech reporter who first wrote about Clearview AI in 2020. She describes her beat as the future tech dystopia and how we can try to avoid it. Kashmir has continued to report on Clearview AI and other developments in facial recognition technology. Now, she has a new book called \"Your Face Belongs To Us: A Secretive Startup's Quest To End Privacy As We Know It.\" Kashmir Hill, welcome to FRESH AIR. Tell us what the Clearview AI facial recognition technology is capable of doing.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1202310781", "date": "2023-09-28", "guest": "Kashmir Hill", "title": "Exposing the secretive company at the forefront of facial recognition technology", "question_index": 1, "text": "So we're talking about anything that's on the internet - your photos on social media.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the way it works is that you upload someone's face - a photo of someone - to the Clearview AI app, and then it will return to you all the places on the internet where that person's face has appeare"}
{"id": "1202310781", "date": "2023-09-28", "guest": "Kashmir Hill", "title": "Exposing the secretive company at the forefront of facial recognition technology", "question_index": 2, "text": "And you'll talk about photos you didn't know they have on you a little bit later. So let's talk about some of the nightmare scenarios that Clearview's facial recognition technology might create.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It could lead to your Facebook profile, your Instagram account, your Venmo account, your LinkedIn profile, reveal your name, you know, possibly where you live, who your friends are. And it may well re"}
{"id": "1202310781", "date": "2023-09-28", "guest": "Kashmir Hill", "title": "Exposing the secretive company at the forefront of facial recognition technology", "question_index": 3, "text": "Mentioning her name.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So let's think about the worst-case scenarios for facial recognition technology. Some of the sensitive uses that I think about are, you know, a woman who is walking out of a Planned Parenthood and the"}
{"id": "1202310781", "date": "2023-09-28", "guest": "Kashmir Hill", "title": "Exposing the secretive company at the forefront of facial recognition technology", "question_index": 4, "text": "Who would have ever thought of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Harass her right there in the moment. Or if you are at a bar and you are talking to somebody and decide that they are creepy and you never want to talk to them again, they could take your photo and"}
{"id": "1202310781", "date": "2023-09-28", "guest": "Kashmir Hill", "title": "Exposing the secretive company at the forefront of facial recognition technology", "question_index": 5, "text": "OK, so in the U.S., who has this Clearview facial recognition technology now? And are there restrictions on who can use it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Harass her right there in the moment. Or if you are at a bar and you are talking to somebody and decide that they are creepy and you never want to talk to them again, they could take your photo and"}
{"id": "1202310781", "date": "2023-09-28", "guest": "Kashmir Hill", "title": "Exposing the secretive company at the forefront of facial recognition technology", "question_index": 6, "text": "So what would they use it for in the military?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So in the U.S. right now, I mean, Clearview AI has been used by thousands of police departments, according to Clearview AI. And it has come up in public records requests. A lot of local journalists ha"}
{"id": "1202310781", "date": "2023-09-28", "guest": "Kashmir Hill", "title": "Exposing the secretive company at the forefront of facial recognition technology", "question_index": 7, "text": "There are U.S. government agencies using this technology, too, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in the military, you can imagine this being very useful for identifying strangers around military bases, you know, in cities that we're in. Clearview AI has actually given their technology for f"}
{"id": "1202310781", "date": "2023-09-28", "guest": "Kashmir Hill", "title": "Exposing the secretive company at the forefront of facial recognition technology", "question_index": 8, "text": "All right. Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Kashmir Hill. She's a tech reporter for The New York Times and author of the new book, \"Your Face Belongs To Us: A Secretive Startup's Quest To End Privacy As We Know It.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I mean, we have some limited look at how every single agency uses the technology. So I talked to a Department of Homeland Security officer who has used Clearview AI, and he told me about a specif"}
{"id": "1202310781", "date": "2023-09-28", "guest": "Kashmir Hill", "title": "Exposing the secretive company at the forefront of facial recognition technology", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with New York Times tech reporter Kashmir Hill. Her new book is called \"Your Face Belongs to Us: A Secretive Startup's Quest To End Privacy As We Know It.\" The company she investigates, Clearview AI, has developed state-of-the-art facial recognition technology that's already being used by many law enforcement agencies, as well as some government agencies. It's been used to identify criminals, including child predators. But it's also made mistakes, which have had consequences for the wrongly accused. Here's an example.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I mean, we have some limited look at how every single agency uses the technology. So I talked to a Department of Homeland Security officer who has used Clearview AI, and he told me about a specif"}
{"id": "1202310781", "date": "2023-09-28", "guest": "Kashmir Hill", "title": "Exposing the secretive company at the forefront of facial recognition technology", "question_index": 10, "text": "You write that of the people who are falsely accused based on faulty recognition technology, the majority of them are people of color and that the algorithms have more trouble correctly identifying people of color than they do identifying white people, building in what is already a racial bias in the criminal justice system. Can you explain, without getting very technical, why these algorithms have more trouble identifying people of color?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Randall Reed is a man who lives in Atlanta. He's a Black man. He was driving to his mother's house the day after Thanksgiving, and he gets pulled over by a number of police officers. There was somethi"}
{"id": "1202310781", "date": "2023-09-28", "guest": "Kashmir Hill", "title": "Exposing the secretive company at the forefront of facial recognition technology", "question_index": 11, "text": "So still in my mind is that you said that Clearview AI has 30 billion faces in its database.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean, this is a complicated issue. So facial recognition technology for a very long time had serious bias issues. And the reason was basically that the people working on facial recognition tec"}
{"id": "1202310781", "date": "2023-09-28", "guest": "Kashmir Hill", "title": "Exposing the secretive company at the forefront of facial recognition technology", "question_index": 12, "text": "Oh, I see.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, and that's many more faces than people who live on the planet. So for many individuals, there's going to be many different versions of your face. The CEO..."}
{"id": "1202310781", "date": "2023-09-28", "guest": "Kashmir Hill", "title": "Exposing the secretive company at the forefront of facial recognition technology", "question_index": 13, "text": "So it's, like, different photos of you counted in that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1202310781", "date": "2023-09-28", "guest": "Kashmir Hill", "title": "Exposing the secretive company at the forefront of facial recognition technology", "question_index": 14, "text": "So Clearview AI, in developing its facial recognition technology, is responsible for technological breakthroughs, but it's also leading to a lot of questions legally and ethically about, where are the boundaries here? Is there a way to say stop when things go too far, and what is that place? You write about how Google and Facebook and maybe some other companies had developed facial recognition technology earlier but didn't want to release it. They thought it was too dangerous, so they didn't make it available. Can you expand on that for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So the CEO has run searches on me. And, you know, the - I can't remember the last number, but I think it was something like there were 160 different photos of me on the internet that it was pull"}
{"id": "1202310781", "date": "2023-09-28", "guest": "Kashmir Hill", "title": "Exposing the secretive company at the forefront of facial recognition technology", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well, a paradox here is that although Google and Facebook developed facial recognition technology, they decided it was too potentially dangerous and withheld it from public use. However, hasn't Clearview AI harvested faces through Google and from Facebook?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This was a really surprising finding for me. You know, when I first got wind of Clearview AI in the fall of 2019 and started talking to experts, people were shocked that this company came out of nowhe"}
{"id": "1202310781", "date": "2023-09-28", "guest": "Kashmir Hill", "title": "Exposing the secretive company at the forefront of facial recognition technology", "question_index": 16, "text": "It's time to take another break, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Kashmir Hill. She's a tech reporter for The New York Times and author of the new book, \"Your Face Belongs to Us: A Secretive Startup's Quest To End Privacy As We Know It.\" We'll be right back after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Clearview AI has scraped photos from millions of websites, including Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, Venmo, YouTube. Yes, you know, it has taken photos from these companies, some of these companies lik"}
{"id": "1202310781", "date": "2023-09-28", "guest": "Kashmir Hill", "title": "Exposing the secretive company at the forefront of facial recognition technology", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Kashmir Hill, author of the new book \"Your Face Belongs to Us: A Secretive Startup's Quest To End Privacy As We Know It.\" It's about a company called Clearview AI that's expanding the technological possibilities of facial recognition technology and testing its legal and ethical limits. It's a startup whose clients already include some law enforcement agencies and government agencies. She exposed them. It had been a very secretive company. She exposed them in a 2020 article for The New York Times. How has this affected your use of social media and putting your picture online? They already have your photos, but still.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Clearview AI has scraped photos from millions of websites, including Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, Venmo, YouTube. Yes, you know, it has taken photos from these companies, some of these companies lik"}
{"id": "1202310781", "date": "2023-09-28", "guest": "Kashmir Hill", "title": "Exposing the secretive company at the forefront of facial recognition technology", "question_index": 18, "text": "You know, a lot of us already use facial recognition technology in our private lives, like, to use it to unlock your phone or log on to an app. Do you use it? Like, what are your thoughts about that in terms of what you're exposing yourself to, if anything?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I think a lot of people get hopeless about privacy or feel like, what can I do to protect myself? I do think that people can make choices that will protect them, but it's also a societal responsibi"}
{"id": "1202310781", "date": "2023-09-28", "guest": "Kashmir Hill", "title": "Exposing the secretive company at the forefront of facial recognition technology", "question_index": 19, "text": "That's a chilling thought. Let's talk about how you first found out about Clearview AI, because it had been doing everything in its power to prevent the public from knowing about it. How did you first find out it existed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean, people think that because I'm a privacy reporter, I must be a complete - I must have everything on lockdown. But I am a normal person who lives my life in normal ways. It's part of how I"}
{"id": "1202310781", "date": "2023-09-28", "guest": "Kashmir Hill", "title": "Exposing the secretive company at the forefront of facial recognition technology", "question_index": 20, "text": "Well, you couldn't find their office. You couldn't find anyone to talk with. What were some of the obstacles you ran into?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I got a tip in the fall of 2019 from a public records researcher who had been looking into, you know, what types of facial recognition technology police were using, you know, which companies, how m"}
{"id": "1202310781", "date": "2023-09-28", "guest": "Kashmir Hill", "title": "Exposing the secretive company at the forefront of facial recognition technology", "question_index": 21, "text": "I mean, you found their address, but you couldn't find a building.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So..."}
{"id": "1202310781", "date": "2023-09-28", "guest": "Kashmir Hill", "title": "Exposing the secretive company at the forefront of facial recognition technology", "question_index": 22, "text": "Yeah. But you were able to see what pictures they had of you. And they had photos of you that you didn't know existed, including photos where you're, like, buried in the background. But it was still able to identify that photo as you. Tell us about some of the most surprising photos that were harvested.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So one of the strangest things was, you know, they had a very basic website. And it just described what they were doing as artificial intelligence for a better world. And there was an office add"}
{"id": "1202310781", "date": "2023-09-28", "guest": "Kashmir Hill", "title": "Exposing the secretive company at the forefront of facial recognition technology", "question_index": 23, "text": "So it can identify you even if you're wearing a mask. That's remarkable. Have you tried to get your own face removed from Clearview AI's database?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So eventually the company did talk to me. They hired a very seasoned crisis communications consultant. And so I was able to meet Hoan Ton-That, who is the technical co-founder of Clearview AI. A"}
{"id": "1202310781", "date": "2023-09-28", "guest": "Kashmir Hill", "title": "Exposing the secretive company at the forefront of facial recognition technology", "question_index": 24, "text": "Oh, so it's only people in other countries who have that ability.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, unfortunately, I am a resident of New York, and so I do not have the privacy protections that other people in the U.S. or people outside of the U.S. have. So I can't get Clearview AI to delete t"}
{"id": "1202310781", "date": "2023-09-28", "guest": "Kashmir Hill", "title": "Exposing the secretive company at the forefront of facial recognition technology", "question_index": 25, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is New York Times tech reporter Kashmir Hill. She's the author of the new book \"Your Face Belongs To Us: A Secretive Startup's Quest to End Privacy As We Know It.\" It's about facial recognition technology and the company Clearview AI. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So people in Europe have this ability. And then there are states in this country that have privacy laws that give them the right to access and delete information that companies have on them. So if you"}
{"id": "1202310781", "date": "2023-09-28", "guest": "Kashmir Hill", "title": "Exposing the secretive company at the forefront of facial recognition technology", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Kashmir Hill. She's a New York Times tech reporter and author of the new book \"Your Face Belongs To Us: A Secretive Startup's Quest To End Privacy As We Know It.\" It's about the company Clearview AI and its quest to develop facial recognition technology and all the successes it's had and all the failures it's had so far, how it's testing the ethical and legal limits of use of this technology. You know, we talked about how law enforcement agencies, some government agencies, the military is using or is interested in using this technology from this company. What about private corporations? Are any of them using it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So people in Europe have this ability. And then there are states in this country that have privacy laws that give them the right to access and delete information that companies have on them. So if you"}
{"id": "1202310781", "date": "2023-09-28", "guest": "Kashmir Hill", "title": "Exposing the secretive company at the forefront of facial recognition technology", "question_index": 27, "text": "You went with a lawyer who is on the banned list of Madison Square Garden to see if the technology actually prevented her from getting in. And it did. It worked.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Clearview AI, when they were first pitching this technology, did want private corporations to use it. They were pitching it to grocery stores and hotels and real estate buildings. One of the people"}
{"id": "1202310781", "date": "2023-09-28", "guest": "Kashmir Hill", "title": "Exposing the secretive company at the forefront of facial recognition technology", "question_index": 28, "text": "Let's take another break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Kashmir Hill, a tech reporter for The New York Times and author of the book \"Your Face Belongs To Us.\" We'll be right back after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It was incredible. I mean, we - so I went with her. I can't remember if it was a Rangers game or a Knicks game, but I bought our tickets, so it was not under her name, not, you know, associated "}
{"id": "1202310781", "date": "2023-09-28", "guest": "Kashmir Hill", "title": "Exposing the secretive company at the forefront of facial recognition technology", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Kashmir Hill. She's a tech reporter for The New York Times and author of the new book, \"Your Face Belongs To Us: A Secretive Startup's Quest To End Privacy As We Know It.\" The startup referred to in the title is Clearview AI, and it's a company that has advanced facial recognition technology. And it's raised a lot of questions about the ethical and legal limits of this technology. Let's talk a little bit about the founder of Clearview AI, and the CEO, Hoan Ton-That. Part of his background was that he was a MAGA supporter. What are his connections to Donald Trump and to the far right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It was incredible. I mean, we - so I went with her. I can't remember if it was a Rangers game or a Knicks game, but I bought our tickets, so it was not under her name, not, you know, associated "}
{"id": "1202310781", "date": "2023-09-28", "guest": "Kashmir Hill", "title": "Exposing the secretive company at the forefront of facial recognition technology", "question_index": 30, "text": "What does that tell you, if anything, about how Clearview AI is using facial recognition technology? I mean, one of the fears is that, like, authoritarian governments could use this for nefarious purposes. And Trump, who the founders of the company - or at least most of the founders of the company - supported, he definitely has authoritarian tendencies.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So Hoan Ton-That, he grew up in Australia. He dropped out of college at 19, moved to San Francisco and he was actually kind of part of a liberal crowd when he lived in San Francisco. And grew hi"}
{"id": "1202310781", "date": "2023-09-28", "guest": "Kashmir Hill", "title": "Exposing the secretive company at the forefront of facial recognition technology", "question_index": 31, "text": "You know, I can't help but wonder. Even if this technology is regulated, what's the likelihood it's going to escape into the wild anyway? And what I'm thinking of specifically is we write about - I think it was a potential investor who was given this technology so he could better understand it, and he let his daughter play with it, and she played with it with her friends. So, like, if a potential investor in the company who has been pitched all about it and knows what the boundaries are supposed to be lets his daughter use it and share it with friends, what does that say about the potential of this, just no matter how controlled it is, getting out into hands it's not supposed to be in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, one of the first ways that Clearview AI was used before it was called that - it was still called Smart Checker at the time - was at the DeploraBall, which was this event in D.C. when Trump was"}
{"id": "1202310781", "date": "2023-09-28", "guest": "Kashmir Hill", "title": "Exposing the secretive company at the forefront of facial recognition technology", "question_index": 32, "text": "Kashmir Hill, thank you so much for your reporting and your new book. I hope this isn't really the end of privacy as we know it, but...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Clearview AI, yes, in its early days was used by, yeah, all of these investors, even celebrities were using the technology. Joe Montana at one point emailed Hoan Ton-That because he wanted access t"}
{"id": "1202310781", "date": "2023-09-28", "guest": "Kashmir Hill", "title": "Exposing the secretive company at the forefront of facial recognition technology", "question_index": 33, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Clearview AI, yes, in its early days was used by, yeah, all of these investors, even celebrities were using the technology. Joe Montana at one point emailed Hoan Ton-That because he wanted access t"}
{"id": "1202310781", "date": "2023-09-28", "guest": "Kashmir Hill", "title": "Exposing the secretive company at the forefront of facial recognition technology", "question_index": 34, "text": "Oh, good to hear. OK. Thanks so much. Kashmir Hill is a tech reporter for The New York Times and author of the new book \"Your Face Belongs To Us.\" If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, like our interviews with Leslie Jones, who has a new memoir, or Kerry Washington, who has a new one too, or songwriter, singer and musician Allison Russell, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. And if you haven't already subscribed to our free newsletter, give it a shot. It will give you something enjoyable to read about our show and the people who produce it. You'll get it in your mailbox every Saturday morning. You can subscribe at whyy.org/freshair. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Ann Marie Baldonado, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakuindi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. And I do think there is hope for privacy."}
{"id": "1202664995", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering 'NCIS' actor David McCallum", "question_index": 0, "text": "David McCallum, I have to ask you about \"The Man From U.N.C.L.E.,\" the series that you co-starred in from 1964 to '68. And in asking you about it, I have to confess that I had a real crush on you", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "McCallum also performed in various roles in theater and film, most notably playing Shakespeare's Julius Caesar in Central Park in 2000. He was trained at the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art in London, t"}
{"id": "1202664995", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering 'NCIS' actor David McCallum", "question_index": 1, "text": ". I was probably one of, like, millions of teenage girls. Was that annoying to you or fun or what, to know that there were all these teenage girls, like myself, out there who had crushes on you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "McCallum also performed in various roles in theater and film, most notably playing Shakespeare's Julius Caesar in Central Park in 2000. He was trained at the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art in London, t"}
{"id": "1202664995", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering 'NCIS' actor David McCallum", "question_index": 2, "text": "I want to hear of what happened in Central Park.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you don't actually think about it that much at the time. You do, of course. But at the time I was doing \"The Man From U.N.C.L.E.,\" my main concern was the script and the part and the day and the"}
{"id": "1202664995", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering 'NCIS' actor David McCallum", "question_index": 3, "text": "Well, this was the period, too, in the mid-'60s that the Beatles were very, very popular in the States. And teenage girls would go to their movies and their concerts and just scream. Were you exposed to that kind of screaming?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was - I just went - I think we were staying at the Plaza Hotel, and I walked down towards - to look at the skaters. And I remember walking across the park, and it was no problem. And then some"}
{"id": "1202664995", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering 'NCIS' actor David McCallum", "question_index": 4, "text": "What kind of stuff did the PR department crank out to satisfy your fans?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, occasionally. I mean, it was all set up. MGM - Chuck Painter was the publicist. And he made a very definite, you know, schedule for us when we would go off and do various public appearances. And "}
{"id": "1202664995", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering 'NCIS' actor David McCallum", "question_index": 5, "text": "Like what?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's fascinating because if you go back - I have interviews sometimes - you know, the Daily Telegraph in England recently did a piece on me, and she went back to the cuttings and got out this fi"}
{"id": "1202664995", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering 'NCIS' actor David McCallum", "question_index": 6, "text": "How did you get the part on \"The Man From U.N.C.L.E.\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I remember there was - one article appeared, I think, in the National Enquirer, when Katherine and I were very first married, about me coming home into the apartment and flinging my lean frame down in"}
{"id": "1202664995", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering 'NCIS' actor David McCallum", "question_index": 7, "text": "Weren't you a Russian defector in \"The Man From U.N.C.L.E.\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I came over to this country when Britain went socialist. I decided that I did not wish to live in a country where socialism does all the things that it does to people's incomes and earning power"}
{"id": "1202664995", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering 'NCIS' actor David McCallum", "question_index": 8, "text": "That's interesting. Did you feel like the show helped promote the Cold War", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I was a Russian working for, well, NBC, basically. There was no real discussion as to whether he defected or not. It was an organization that allowed people to work who were Russian and who were A"}
{"id": "1202664995", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering 'NCIS' actor David McCallum", "question_index": 9, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I was a Russian working for, well, NBC, basically. There was no real discussion as to whether he defected or not. It was an organization that allowed people to work who were Russian and who were A"}
{"id": "1202664995", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering 'NCIS' actor David McCallum", "question_index": 10, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think because the Vietnam War at that time was causing terrible anguish in this country, and it was when the newsreels were beginning to become less censored - and there was the sort of whole violen"}
{"id": "1202664995", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering 'NCIS' actor David McCallum", "question_index": 11, "text": "What was it like for you after the series ended when you tried to get other roles on TV or in films?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I think the formative years of that time, it had an effect on a whole group of people."}
{"id": "1202664995", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering 'NCIS' actor David McCallum", "question_index": 12, "text": "Now, you were a child actor on the BBC. Your television career dates back that far?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1992 interview with actor David McCallum, best known for his roles as Ducky, the eccentric medical examiner on the CBS series \"NCIS,\" and earlier in his ca"}
{"id": "1202664995", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering 'NCIS' actor David McCallum", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well, how did you get into TV at such a young age?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I think I joined Equity in 1946, so I'd be about 12."}
{"id": "1202664995", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering 'NCIS' actor David McCallum", "question_index": 14, "text": "I think, in the United States, a lot of actors who were child stars are now in therapy. Did any of the child acting have a bad effect on you? Or did it not have the kind of exposure and pressure that would lead to despair in later life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I suppose it goes back to the relationship that a child has with his father and mother. And my father being a musician, he was with Sir Thomas Beecham at the time in the London Philharmonic Orch"}
{"id": "1202664995", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering 'NCIS' actor David McCallum", "question_index": 15, "text": "Now, I've read about you that you also directed theater in the British Army.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, the only despair was my headmaster at University College School in London because he felt that I was - my mind was really over in the thespian world and not in Latin and Greek, where he preferred "}
{"id": "1202664995", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering 'NCIS' actor David McCallum", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. You see; you've been in the cutting book. You're dredging up those way-back things. Yes, I did. I was a very bad soldier. I was very happy to be in the army because it taught me how to be a soldi"}
{"id": "1202664995", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering 'NCIS' actor David McCallum", "question_index": 17, "text": "So do you think that helped your theater training?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And one of the things that they did, they had various dances. And so I would take a large airplane hangar and fill it with palm fronds and drape bougainvillea from the ceiling and just turn it into a "}
{"id": "1202664995", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering 'NCIS' actor David McCallum", "question_index": 18, "text": "Now, your father was a violinist. He was concertmaster for a while at the London Philharmonic.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, very much so - very much so. Just going off into the bush and doing things with - you know, there were 147 Africans, and then there was Captain Linley and myself, and that was it - oh, and a color"}
{"id": "1202664995", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering 'NCIS' actor David McCallum", "question_index": 19, "text": "Yeah. So Mantovani was the king of middle-of-the-road music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, and then worked with the BBC during the war. And then after the war, when they - they reformed the Royal Philharmonic for Sir Thomas Beecham. And they asked our father to lead it. And he came alo"}
{"id": "1202664995", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering 'NCIS' actor David McCallum", "question_index": 20, "text": "Wasn't Mantovani the 1,001 strings or 101 strings?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Yes. You cringe, but you know, I - still in the car, I'm sitting there and I hear \"Softly As You Leave Me,\" or whatever, or \"Fiddler On The Roof,\" and it's Father playing away. And he did "}
{"id": "1202664995", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering 'NCIS' actor David McCallum", "question_index": 21, "text": "Or however many strings.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "1202664995", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering 'NCIS' actor David McCallum", "question_index": 22, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That sort of glissando divisi..."}
{"id": "1202664995", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering 'NCIS' actor David McCallum", "question_index": 23, "text": "So did he like the music, or was it just a good gig?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Section work."}
{"id": "1202664995", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering 'NCIS' actor David McCallum", "question_index": 24, "text": "That's really interesting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he - my father was, you know, one of the boys. He would go down, and he'd sit there and play the music, pick up the check and come home. And no matter what he did, he was happy. He'd go and do f"}
{"id": "1202664995", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering 'NCIS' actor David McCallum", "question_index": 25, "text": "Is your father still living?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Small world."}
{"id": "1202664995", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering 'NCIS' actor David McCallum", "question_index": 26, "text": "I bet he would have really liked the idea of you doing this movie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. He died in '72."}
{"id": "1202664995", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering 'NCIS' actor David McCallum", "question_index": 27, "text": "Are you hoping that your role in \"Hear My Song\" is going to give you a new direction in the kind of movies that you're cast in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This movie, and also \"Mother Love,\" because when I was conducting the BBC Symphony Orchestra in London in the Westminster Hall and - so a lot of the musicians knew Father. And the principal violin sai"}
{"id": "1202664995", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering 'NCIS' actor David McCallum", "question_index": 28, "text": "Well, I wish you the best, and I thank you a lot for talking with us. It's really been interesting to hear your story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I would like to think so, simply because, you know, before I did \"U.N.C.L.E.,\" I was a character actor in pictures. That was my job. And, you know, it's a form of acting where you do any part tha"}
{"id": "1202669451", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Revisiting the 'Fresh Air' interview with poet Allen Ginsberg", "question_index": 0, "text": "Yeah, you know, and part one begins with one of your most famous lines.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She had been there for several years, and I had put her there after a breakthrough of some very violent behavior toward her sister and a cousin she was staying with. And then I had gone out to San Fra"}
{"id": "1202669451", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Revisiting the 'Fresh Air' interview with poet Allen Ginsberg", "question_index": 1, "text": "I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1202669451", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Revisiting the 'Fresh Air' interview with poet Allen Ginsberg", "question_index": 2, "text": "Now, I want to move on to another poem, \"America.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Starving, hysterical, naked. The original phrase was starving, mystical, naked. But I figured that was a little bit too simple-minded because the problem was not all the problem of society. It was als"}
{"id": "1202669451", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Revisiting the 'Fresh Air' interview with poet Allen Ginsberg", "question_index": 3, "text": "It was read the same night as \"Howl.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1202669451", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Revisiting the 'Fresh Air' interview with poet Allen Ginsberg", "question_index": 4, "text": "It was at the same reading.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1202669451", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Revisiting the 'Fresh Air' interview with poet Allen Ginsberg", "question_index": 5, "text": "It really is very funny. And you get a lot of laughs from the audience.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, and that's the very first unveiling of that poem. It's really funny. The text in the recording differs a little from the final text that I wound up with. There are a few extra and some very funny"}
{"id": "1202669451", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Revisiting the 'Fresh Air' interview with poet Allen Ginsberg", "question_index": 6, "text": "Why don't we hear the beginning of \"America\" as you read it in 1956 at Town Hall in Berkeley?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it sounds like a stand-up comedy routine. That's the era, actually, of Lenny Bruce around San Francisco. He was playing, I think, at The Purple Onion. And I went down to see him and watch his ac"}
{"id": "1202669451", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Revisiting the 'Fresh Air' interview with poet Allen Ginsberg", "question_index": 7, "text": "Allen Ginsberg, recorded in 1956. That's one one of the recordings featured on his new box set, \"Holy Soul Jelly Roll.\" You must have seen yourself as a provocateur, in a way, at a very young age. I'm thinking, you know, that you were just coming from a place that was not average. You know, your mother was mentally ill. Your mother had been a communist. You were gay. You were an intellectual. You loved poetry.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) You made me want to be a saint. There must be some other way to settle this argument."}
{"id": "1202669451", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Revisiting the 'Fresh Air' interview with poet Allen Ginsberg", "question_index": 8, "text": "I mean, just everything about your life kind of set you apart.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But also..."}
{"id": "1202669451", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Revisiting the 'Fresh Air' interview with poet Allen Ginsberg", "question_index": 9, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But you've got to realize, by this time I had already known William Burroughs and Jack Kerouac 12 years. This is not, you know, some sudden..."}
{"id": "1202669451", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Revisiting the 'Fresh Air' interview with poet Allen Ginsberg", "question_index": 10, "text": "Was it surprising to you to find people like Burroughs and Kerouac, who you felt this kind of friendship and aesthetic closeness with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Discovery of a community or ideas. We had had a long period of privacy and silence to ripen our art, to know each other and to amuse each other and to understand each other's language and intellige"}
{"id": "1202669451", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Revisiting the 'Fresh Air' interview with poet Allen Ginsberg", "question_index": 11, "text": "But did you expect you'd ever find that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it was just some sort of natural kinship that we felt almost instantly on meeting."}
{"id": "1202669451", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Revisiting the 'Fresh Air' interview with poet Allen Ginsberg", "question_index": 12, "text": "But when you talk about being a student of Kerouac's, I've never been able to tell how much your style of reading influenced him and how much his style of reading influenced you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not exactly, but I hadn't even conceived of such a thing. I conceived of friends. And I'd had friends in high school, but I was still in the closet. Kerouac was the first person I was able to come out"}
{"id": "1202669451", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Revisiting the 'Fresh Air' interview with poet Allen Ginsberg", "question_index": 13, "text": "Of course, with your readings, I always felt that there was a certain Hebraic intonation, even though I know that, you know, Buddhism was probably an even greater influence on you. And you certainly hear that in your voice, too. But there is that kind of Hebraic sound.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "? And the way Kerouac said a John-a-dreams, it was like his mind went off into a little dream in that phrase. So I began seeing that there were intonations, differences of pitch possible. You know, mo"}
{"id": "1202669451", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Revisiting the 'Fresh Air' interview with poet Allen Ginsberg", "question_index": 14, "text": "Now, when did that start to enter your reading style?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Hebraic thing is very real. My grandfathers were rabbis. And one of the most strong musical influence I ever had was hearing a recording of Sophie Breslau, a great operatic singer, singing \"Eli, E"}
{"id": "1202669451", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Revisiting the 'Fresh Air' interview with poet Allen Ginsberg", "question_index": 15, "text": "And the Kaddish is the Hebrew prayer for the dead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, certainly with \"Kaddish\" because I was imitating the davening motion of Kaddish, you know, the sound of, (speaking Aramaic). Da, da, da. Da, da, da. Da, da, da. Magnificent, mourned no more, mar"}
{"id": "1202669451", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Revisiting the 'Fresh Air' interview with poet Allen Ginsberg", "question_index": 16, "text": "So I guess you didn't say the prayer when your mother died.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it's kind of a Mass or prayer for the dead in the synagogue, when you have minyan or a group of elders that are - can get together to help you mourn for the dead."}
{"id": "1202669451", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Revisiting the 'Fresh Air' interview with poet Allen Ginsberg", "question_index": 17, "text": "And this is a couple of years after your mother, Naomi, died.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I didn't know it as well, but I did try and do it. Actually, I wandered around San Francisco with Jack Kerouac and Philip Whalen. And we went into various synagogues, but there was no minyan, so"}
{"id": "1202669451", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Revisiting the 'Fresh Air' interview with poet Allen Ginsberg", "question_index": 18, "text": "Now, if you had grandfathers - who were rabbis, did you say?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1994 interview with poet Allen Ginsberg. Next week a new tribute album of musical interpretations of Ginsberg's poems will be released. It's titled \"The Fa"}
{"id": "1202669451", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Revisiting the 'Fresh Air' interview with poet Allen Ginsberg", "question_index": 19, "text": "But how did...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, scholars, you know, guys with big, black hats and long-bearded - long, gray beards who died of cancer from smoking, actually."}
{"id": "1202669451", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Revisiting the 'Fresh Air' interview with poet Allen Ginsberg", "question_index": 20, "text": "How did you get to be in your 20s before you heard the prayer for the dead?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "New York in the '30s."}
{"id": "1202669451", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Revisiting the 'Fresh Air' interview with poet Allen Ginsberg", "question_index": 21, "text": "So you didn't go to synagogue.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we didn't. My mother was communist, and my father was socialist."}
{"id": "1202669451", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Revisiting the 'Fresh Air' interview with poet Allen Ginsberg", "question_index": 22, "text": "Your mother was institutionalized several times.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I did go to synagogue, and I went to - what? - Sunday school or - what do you call it? - the shul to learn Hebrew and the traditional - prepare for a bar mitzvah. But I somehow I asked questions th"}
{"id": "1202669451", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Revisiting the 'Fresh Air' interview with poet Allen Ginsberg", "question_index": 23, "text": "Were you frightened by her madness?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Many, many times. All during my childhood, I had to go out to visit her in Greystone Hospital."}
{"id": "1202669451", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Revisiting the 'Fresh Air' interview with poet Allen Ginsberg", "question_index": 24, "text": "Now, when you started doing hallucinogenics like LSD, did your hallucinations ever scare you because you'd seen your mother have hallucinations and delusions because of her mental illness?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sometimes, sometimes sorrowed, sometimes frightened, sometimes stuck with a responsibility I couldn't carry out as a kid. Going out alone to see her in a mental hospital when I was 12, 13, 14 - it was"}
{"id": "1202669451", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Revisiting the 'Fresh Air' interview with poet Allen Ginsberg", "question_index": 25, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no, not really. I realized that if everybody began disagreeing with me, I'd better look around twice..."}
{"id": "1202669451", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Revisiting the 'Fresh Air' interview with poet Allen Ginsberg", "question_index": 26, "text": "Where were you in your performance style in 1964, the year that the recording of \"Kaddish\" was made?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And think three times and be pretty sure I knew what I was doing. And so I've been able to be in situations where everybody disagreed but, at the same time, maintain my sanity, so to speak, by simp"}
{"id": "1202669451", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Revisiting the 'Fresh Air' interview with poet Allen Ginsberg", "question_index": 27, "text": "Is there a particular section of \"Kaddish\" that you've had the most problem with controlling your emotion?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I hadn't ever tried to read anything as long as \"Kaddish\" complete. And so - and I had drunk a little bit - not very much. So I wasn't really drunk, but I was sort of a little keyed up with alcohol. S"}
{"id": "1202669451", "date": "2023-09-29", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Revisiting the 'Fresh Air' interview with poet Allen Ginsberg", "question_index": 28, "text": "Why don't I play an excerpt of \"Kaddish\"? And you wrote this in the late 1950s. The recording we're going to hear from your new box set was made at Brandeis University in 1964.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. There's a section that begins when I'm visiting my mother in the mental hospital for the last time. And I walk in, and I see she's had a stroke. And then suddenly there's a break in the poem, an"}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Keegan-Michael Key, loves sketch comedy - watching it, performing it and now writing about it. With Jordan Peele, he was half of the sketch comedy duo Key and Peele, which was also the name of their show on Comedy Central. When the series ended, Key and Peele split up as a duo. Peele went on to direct the films \"Get Out,\" \"Us\" and \"Nope.\" Key went on to act in films, including a comedy about improv and sketch comedy called \"Don't Think Twice.\" He co-stars in the TV series \"Schmigadoon!\" a great show that lovingly satirizes Broadway musicals. He made his Broadway debut in a show written by Steve Martin called \"Meteor Shower\" and played Horatio in the New York Public Theater production of \"Hamlet,\" which starred Oscar Isaac as Hamlet. Now Key has returned to sketch comedy by writing about it. He hosted the podcast \"The History Of Sketch Comedy,\" which he wrote with his wife, Elle Key. And they've adapted that into the new book \"The History Of Sketch Comedy.\" Keegan-Michael Key, welcome back to FRESH AIR. I think the last time we spoke was when \"Key And Peele\" ended the series on Comedy Central.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 1, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. So that would have been 2015 or so."}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 2, "text": "It was a while ago.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So that was a while ago."}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 3, "text": "It's great to have you back. You were doing the MAD show during the previous actor's strike, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's good to be back."}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 4, "text": "And let me explain your presence on the show. You're not here to talk about a movie or TV series. You're here because you have a new book. So that's why you can be on the show without breaking the guidelines.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I was on MADtv at that point in time. That would have been, gosh, 2007, I think. And, yeah, so - but this is the first time in a very long time that the writers and the actors struck at the same "}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 5, "text": "So let me start with kind of where we left off. When we spoke, \"Key And Peele\" the TV series was ending. I think we spoke right before the last episode.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. That's right."}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 6, "text": "So what happened? Like, did you and Jordan Peele decide to end the series, or was it ended by Comedy Central?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh."}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 7, "text": "I don't know what you mean.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, we decided to end the series. We wanted to get really British about the whole thing, if you know what I mean, you know?"}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 8, "text": "But you were still on good terms with each other?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. In the U.K., very often when they do series or - of television shows, what they do is they only do them for three years or four years or five years, and then they stop the series. They just - th"}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 9, "text": "Oh, so he was already working on that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. We were on great terms with each other. It was a mutual decision for us. And we knew that we would work together again sometime soon. We just didn't know what the project would be. And Jordan"}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 10, "text": "I don't remember you having a small part in that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he had been working on it for about eight years. He had had different amalgamations of the script in his mind, and he kept on rewriting it and rewriting it and rewriting it. And he had been doin"}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 11, "text": "Why weren't you in it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't have a small part. Isn't that funny? I see that sometimes in the credits. It says - you know, it'll say uncredited or cameo by Keegan-Michael Key. And I'm like, I guess that means my spirit w"}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 12, "text": "I think this is something that everybody who's in a sketch comedy group goes through, when the group disbands. What's it like to be on your own after that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't - you know, I don't know why I wasn't in it. I - it's funny. I think that he had a vision. And in this - with this particular project, his vision did not necessarily include my physical presen"}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 13, "text": "One of the other avenues that you moved on to was playing Horatio in \"Hamlet.\" Is that something that you'd always been yearning to do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was - in a way, it's bittersweet because you miss the camaraderie and you miss the day-to-day. But then there's also this liberating feeling of, I'm on my own to do whatever I want and express myse"}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 14, "text": "Wait. Wait. I'm going to stop you. Most people want to play Hamlet, not Horatio.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's funny that you ask that because it is. It's something - I have wanted to play Horatio for over 20 years."}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 15, "text": "So one of the reasons to play Horatio is, like, he's the guy who survives at the end...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I know. That's funny. It's interesting that I wanted to play Horatio. Ever since I saw - there was an actor by the name of Nicholas Farrell who played Horatio in the Kenneth Branagh film \"Hamlet,"}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 16, "text": "...After, like, everybody's dead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he gets - he lives."}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 17, "text": "Spoiler.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, right. It's pretty much Fortinbras and Horatio, and then everybody else is gone. So..."}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Spoiler alert. I get to make it to the end. The Black guy makes it to the end, Terry."}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 19, "text": "Setting a new precedent.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Black guy makes it to the end."}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 20, "text": "So one of the things you have to do playing Horatio is to kind of figure out what to do while Hamlet's doing soliloquies. So, like, you're on stage, people are seeing you, but no one's really paying attention to you. But someone's going to be look - like, you're still in the visual frame on stage.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Setting a brand-new precedent, both theatrically and cinematically. Yes."}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 21, "text": "But what about when you had to be onstage during a soliloquy? Like what did you do with your body and your face?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Especially in the theater that we did it in, too. We did it in a small theater that had about 300 seats. And it was really - I mean, you're on top of the audience. In fact, sometimes I was on top of t"}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what I would typically do was I would focus all of my attention - especially if I was sitting in the audience, I would focus my attention as much as possible on Oscar and actually lean my body f"}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 23, "text": "You're modeling behavior for them", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's right here. Look at this guy."}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 24, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's right here. Look at this guy."}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 25, "text": "When you were young, when you were 14 or 15, you used to listen to cassettes in the car of \"Saturday Night Live.\" And I assume you memorized some of the sketches and kind of studied them. Did you dream of being on that show? Like, once you knew that you were going to be part of sketch comedy and improv comedy, was that ever your ambition?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm modeling behavior. Well said, well said."}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 26, "text": "Did you ever apply to audition on \"Saturday Night Live\" or dream that one night, when you were onstage at Detroit Second City - because Detroit Second City came after your childhood. So when you were first deciding, like, I want to do sketch comedy, you didn't have the option of Detroit Second City. It didn't exist yet.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", which was sometimes nice of him to do. And so I thought, once I saw Eddie Murphy, I just was done. I was like, that's it. I want in. I don't know what this is or how you do it. And my parents, being"}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 27, "text": "So the Detroit Second City, did you dream of being discovered there by one of the \"Saturday Night Live\" scouts? Or did you send them, you know, tape hoping that they would bring you onto the show?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. It didn't exist yet. It didn't exist until the early '90s."}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 28, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Keegan-Michael Key. And now he's co-written a book called \"The History Of Sketch Comedy.\" And his co-writer is also his wife and writing partner, Elle Key. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's funny. When I was in Detroit, I did send a tape to \"MADtv.\" I remember auditioning for \"MADtv\" on tape. But I thought - when we were in Detroit, I thought, you know, the scouts are never going to"}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with sketch actor, stage and screen actor and writer Keegan-Michael Key. He was half of the sketch duo Key and Peele, as in Jordan Peele. And he's appeared in TV series like \"Schmigadoon!\" onstage in a play written by Steve Martin called \"Meteor Shower\" and as Horatio in \"Hamlet.\" And he's been in movies and has done voice work for animated films. Now he's written a new book about the history of sketch comedy called \"The History Of Sketch Comedy.\" And it's co-written by his wife and writing partner, Elle Key. What are some of the characters you created back when you were in Second City onstage? And I feel like we can talk about this because it's theater and it's not movies or TV.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's funny. When I was in Detroit, I did send a tape to \"MADtv.\" I remember auditioning for \"MADtv\" on tape. But I thought - when we were in Detroit, I thought, you know, the scouts are never going to"}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 30, "text": "So it's not represented by SAG, the Screen Actors Guild.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 31, "text": "Kind of like Obama's anger management...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. I played - I created a character named Coach Hines at the Second City. And he was a guy who definitely needed anger management classes. He was..."}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 32, "text": "Yeah, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like Obama's anger translator."}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 33, "text": "And how did he sound?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", but it's kind of contrary to who I am in real life. But it seems to be the characters that resonate a lot with people. But Coach Hines was a character that I created at the Second City, and he's an "}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 34, "text": "So if you were attracted especially to people who were angry, why do you think that was?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Coach Hines) He sounds - he's got this kind of - you know, there's, like, a break in his voice. And his voice is always about ready to break. I'm sorry, Casey (ph), if I'm getting loud, but the gu"}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 35, "text": "Did you ever sit back and think, this is a fun show, watching this guy kind of lose his cool?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I - you know, I don't know. I don't know exactly why. I - maybe there's some anger inside of me that I - that was my therapeutic way of getting it out was through character. Because I try to be, in my"}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 36, "text": "I'm wondering how the new awareness in Hollywood of inclusion and diversity is affecting you as a light-skinned, biracial actor who can maybe, like, fit in either role. But, you know, I don't know how that's affecting you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it is fun. I think it's fun because he was so misdirected, too. That was part of what was so funny about him is that he would - he was being more disruptive than the students were. So then he wo"}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 37, "text": "What kind of role?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So far, it hasn't - I haven't really bumped into anything that's been untoward or has been really a challenge. I do look back at sketches from \"Key And Peele,\" and I think to myself, oh, would I be al"}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 38, "text": "As in from the country India?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there was a sketch - the one that comes to mind right now is there was a sketch where I played an Indian doctor. And..."}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 39, "text": "So what's your take on that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As in from the country India, right. And so I wonder now if they would say, if you were going to be in that - if you're going to do that sketch, you would hire an Indian actor to play the role. And th"}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 40, "text": "You might not have had the money to hire them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that the inclusion is important. I'm literally here trying to actually fix the show. In my mind, I'm going, how would we do our show now? And would we just simply not be in as much - in as man"}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 41, "text": "I mean, it's a sketch comedy show built around two actors who do characters. So I think, you know, it's kind of tricky 'cause you're - I mean, you're satirizing everybody that you see.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's true. We might not have had..."}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 42, "text": "Well, let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Keegan-Michael Key, and he has a new book he wrote with his wife, Elle Key, which is called \"The History Of Sketch Comedy.\" And, of course, he is a sketch comic as well as an actor. And he was half of the duo Key and Peele. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Right. And that is actually kind of one of the traditions of sketches, that - is that you have a small troupe or, in this particular case, a couple, and they do everything. That's part of the r"}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 43, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Keegan-Michael Key. He first became famous as half of the sketch comedy duo Key and Peele along with Jordan Peele, who went on to be a filmmaker. Key went on to be an actor and now a writer as well. He's performed in drama and in comedy, things like in \"Hamlet\" at the New York Public Theater and in the streaming TV series \"Schmigadoon!,\" which is a loving parody of Broadway musicals. He's done voice work for animated movies, and now he's written a book with his wife, Elle Key, about the history of sketch comedy. It is therefore called \"The History Of Sketch Comedy.\" So in talking about the history of sketch comedy, the subject of your new book, I'm thinking of the fact that your wife, Elle, co-wrote it with you. A through line through the history of comedy that I think is over is wife jokes, as in, take my wife, please. But so many jokes about, you know, wives and mother-in-laws that were always, like, really offensive - and not everybody thought of it that way at the time because that's what comedy was. But now it's just like you hear those jokes and just cringe. So how did you want to deal with wife jokes in the book? And I'm also wondering if you and your wife had long talks about wife jokes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Right. And that is actually kind of one of the traditions of sketches, that - is that you have a small troupe or, in this particular case, a couple, and they do everything. That's part of the r"}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 44, "text": "And I think I just found out that Elle is actually your partner and not your wife, so I can't really ask you about partner jokes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's interesting. We've not talked about wife jokes that much. It's interesting. It's also interesting that Elle - she comes from a tradition - she comes from a Jewish family where they would tell wha"}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 45, "text": "Those partner jokes are so condescending.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Right, right."}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 46, "text": "But you're partners on the book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Elle is my wife. But it's funny. She is my wife. She is my wife. But we actually..."}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 47, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We're partners on the book. Yes."}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 48, "text": "OK. Thank you for the clarification.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We're partners on the book."}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 49, "text": "Oh, I was going to ask you about that. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, you're absolutely welcome. Our relationship started as partners, as working partners. We started..."}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 50, "text": "Right. A lot of people will say that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah. We started - our relationship started wanting to figure out how to work together. And one of our first meetings that we ever had was we had a dinner, and we were trying to figure out how w"}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 51, "text": "So can you tell a joke and then analyze it for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. But I find it very fascinating."}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 52, "text": "OK, so break it down for us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So I can tell you my favorite joke, a joke that Elle told me that evening that, today, to this day, is my favorite joke. And the joke is there's an old lady who calls downstairs to her husband, "}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 53, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK, so the setup is, as soon as you hear the phrase, she calls downstairs - so you need to hear the word downstairs. So you need to know that the man is downstairs and that she wants him to come up th"}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 54, "text": "But it helps if you're writing a joke to think about that, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. So that's how a joke - that's how a setup of a joke works - is the setup always makes you start to assume what direction you think the joke is going in. And then when he says, fine, you go, OK, h"}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 55, "text": "So it's time for another break here, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Keegan-Michael Key, and he's written a new book with his wife and writing partner called \"The History Of Sketch Comedy.\" He is a sketch actor who was half of the duo Key and Peele along with Jordan Peele. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That's what you have to think about. When you're writing a joke, you have to think about, how am I going to turn this at the end? How am I going to zag? And that's the most important part of the"}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 56, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Keegan-Michael Key. He's written a new book called \"The History Of Sketch Comedy.\" His co-author is his wife and writing partner, Elle Key. He is a sketch actor who was half of the duo Key and Peele with Jordan Peele. He's since acted on Broadway, in movies, TV, and he sings and dances. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That's what you have to think about. When you're writing a joke, you have to think about, how am I going to turn this at the end? How am I going to zag? And that's the most important part of the"}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 57, "text": "So I want to ask you a little bit about your early life. You were adopted at the age of 3 months. Your biological parents and your adoptive parents were interracial couples. When you were growing up, my understanding is you lived on the border of a Black part of Detroit and a suburb that was largely white. So what were the schools like that you went to? You went to Catholic school, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Some people would say I sing and move well."}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 58, "text": "So what did your parents teach you about race, and how did they model race for you as an interracial couple?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. I went to Catholic school. I went to a Catholic school in the city. And when I started going to school, I believe that the demographic of the school was kind of 50% white, 50% Black. But by the"}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 59, "text": "What was it like seeing him not identify so much as Black?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, my father, who was African American - it's interesting because he was actually a very quiet man. And I think what I learned from him in regard to race wasn't really about being - it wasn't r"}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 60, "text": "Which approach did you take, or did you switch back and forth, or create your own idea of your own identity?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had to find it - it was confusing, in a way, because he was a large man, and he had very dark skin. So it was almost that he didn't - it was almost like he was choosing not to do that. But the thing"}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 61, "text": "And how do you think you're seen by other people? That must change depending on who the person is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I had in my own idea of my own identity was that I am a person who is biracial and that I can span different cultures and that there's a few of us out here in the world. Somebody affectionatel"}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 62, "text": "So you and Elle, your wife and writing partner, did a lot of research into the history of comedy going, like, way back. What's something that you found especially interesting or funny that you didn't know about before?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think that I'm seen by African American youth and by African Americans in general - very often seen as one of the standard bearers. People often say that - to me that \"Key And Peele\" meant so "}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 63, "text": "When you say recorded, obviously you don't mean", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One thing I didn't know was that as far as we knew from our research, the first recorded joke ever was in 1900 B.C. So I wouldn't have thought it would have been that far back. It was by the Sumerians"}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 64, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One thing I didn't know was that as far as we knew from our research, the first recorded joke ever was in 1900 B.C. So I wouldn't have thought it would have been that far back. It was by the Sumerians"}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 65, "text": "...You don't mean on tape or digital.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yes, I don't mean on tape. Yes, right."}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 66, "text": "Yeah, OK. Stone tablet, all right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean recorded on a stone tablet, yeah."}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 67, "text": "What was the joke?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And this first joke that was recorded from our research is actually a fart joke."}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 68, "text": "Oh, interesting you'd point that out. Yeah. I'm wondering, like, what was the Sumerian word for fart", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The joke goes something like, since time immemorial, there has never been a young lady who did not fart in her husband's lap. That's the joke. So that goes right back to the beginning of what we were "}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 69, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The joke goes something like, since time immemorial, there has never been a young lady who did not fart in her husband's lap. That's the joke. So that goes right back to the beginning of what we were "}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 70, "text": "Who translated it? Yeah, I'm wondering who translated this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's a good word. Somebody should do that research."}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 71, "text": "So I can't ask you what you're up to next, although I'd really like to know, because you're an actor. You're a member of the Screen Actors Guild and are on strike and shouldn't be talking about that. You have been able to talk about what you've done onstage because stage actors are not part of the Screen Actors Guild. Whatever you're up to next that we can't talk about, I wish you great success with it. And I hope it's fulfilling and fun.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1204833725", "date": "2023-10-10", "guest": "Keegan-Michael Key", "title": "Keegan-Michael Key breaks down how he sets up a joke", "question_index": 72, "text": "It's been great talking with you. I really enjoyed it. Keegan-Michael Key's new book is called \"The History Of Sketch Comedy.\" After we take a short break, our TV critic David Bianculli will review a series of four animated adaptations of Roald Dahl stories directed by Wes Anderson. They're streaming on Netflix. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much, Terry. I appreciate that. It's been lovely talking to you."}
{"id": "1205099876", "date": "2023-10-11", "guest": "Daniel Byman", "title": "How was Hamas able to launch such a devastating attack on Israel?", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The war between Israel and Hamas that began with Hamas' shocking invasion of Israel is built on what my guest calls deadly foundations. Those deadly foundations are the subject of today's interview with Daniel Byman. We'll also talk about where this war might lead. Byman has written extensively about the Middle East and terrorism, including the book \"A High Price: The Triumphs And Failures Of Israeli Counterterrorism.\" He's a senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies and a professor at Georgetown University. In the past few days, he's written several articles about the war for the publication Foreign Affairs. Shortly after we finished recording our interview this morning, Israel announced the formation of a new emergency government that will include Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and a top rival from the opposition, Benny Gantz. Daniel Byman, welcome back to FRESH AIR. A question we've all been wondering is, why now? Why did - I know it's an anniversary, and terrorists seem to love anniversaries. But beyond that, why do you think Hamas chose this moment to stage this shocking attack on Israel?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1205099876", "date": "2023-10-11", "guest": "Daniel Byman", "title": "How was Hamas able to launch such a devastating attack on Israel?", "question_index": 1, "text": "There's also been so much dissent within Israel over the Netanyahu government, which is a far-right government. And the Netanyahu government was trying to weaken the judiciary, the Supreme Court, and give Congress more power. And many people have said that's because Netanyahu was facing charges of bribery and fraud, breach of trust. And I'm wondering if you think Hamas might have seen this as an opportune moment because Israel itself has been so divided. There have been massive protests against the Netanyahu government.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We don't yet have a great answer to the question of why now, but let me present several possibilities. Some people have talked about the international environment, that Saudi Arabia is normalizing rel"}
{"id": "1205099876", "date": "2023-10-11", "guest": "Daniel Byman", "title": "How was Hamas able to launch such a devastating attack on Israel?", "question_index": 2, "text": "Something that I think separates this crisis from previous ones in Israel is that the U.S. is directly involved in the sense that there are American hostages, and there are Americans who were killed in the attacks. How do you think that's going to affect the U.S. response?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hamas has always, in its propaganda, at least, portrayed Israel as weak politically, that it lacks the political will if Palestinians will simply push it hard. And certainly, the last year has seen tr"}
{"id": "1205099876", "date": "2023-10-11", "guest": "Daniel Byman", "title": "How was Hamas able to launch such a devastating attack on Israel?", "question_index": 3, "text": "And if we just pull back a little bit, the U.S. is already involved in the war in Ukraine, supplying arms to Ukraine and providing - I think providing intelligence as well. So now the U.S. is involved because of the hostages and because Israel is an ally in the war between Israel and Hamas. Are they connected in any way? Do you see Russia's attack on Ukraine as it all connected? Not directly, but, like, in the Venn diagram, is there a place where they overlap?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For the United States, this is really uncharted territory. In the past, when the U.S. has considered Israel and the region, it's focused on the security of a very close ally. It's focused on deterring"}
{"id": "1205099876", "date": "2023-10-11", "guest": "Daniel Byman", "title": "How was Hamas able to launch such a devastating attack on Israel?", "question_index": 4, "text": "Do you foresee the possibility of a larger regional war or perhaps even a world war?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think there is some overlap when we take several steps back. So what we're seeing is a world reaction to a decline in both U.S. power and U.S. engagement in certain parts of the world. The United St"}
{"id": "1205099876", "date": "2023-10-11", "guest": "Daniel Byman", "title": "How was Hamas able to launch such a devastating attack on Israel?", "question_index": 5, "text": "Can you talk a little bit more about the connection between Hezbollah and Hamas? They're both political parties and Islamic fundamentalist militant groups.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Unfortunately, it is at least possible that this war will widen, perhaps dramatically. We've seen the Lebanese Hezbollah do attacks into Israel. We've also seen attacks from Syria that may be from Ira"}
{"id": "1205099876", "date": "2023-10-11", "guest": "Daniel Byman", "title": "How was Hamas able to launch such a devastating attack on Israel?", "question_index": 6, "text": "And there've already been clashes between Israel and Hezbollah this week. So there's reason for concern. I know that Hamas is on the U.S.'s list of terrorist groups. Is Hezbollah officially listed as a terrorist group as well?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Hezbollah and Hamas share many similarities but also are quite different in many ways. Hezbollah is a Lebanese group that was really created with Iranian help and works very closely with Iran. It's"}
{"id": "1205099876", "date": "2023-10-11", "guest": "Daniel Byman", "title": "How was Hamas able to launch such a devastating attack on Israel?", "question_index": 7, "text": "Is Hezbollah part of the government in Lebanon?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hezbollah is also designated as a terrorist group."}
{"id": "1205099876", "date": "2023-10-11", "guest": "Daniel Byman", "title": "How was Hamas able to launch such a devastating attack on Israel?", "question_index": 8, "text": "You know, everybody has been asking, how could Israel have missed what was going on, the planning for this invasion by Hamas? And I want to ask you that question because you are the author of the book \"A High Price: The Triumphs And Failures Of Israel Counterterrorism.\" So this was obviously coming under the category of failure, massive failure. How do you think this might have happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hezbollah plays multiple roles in Lebanon, including being part of the government. So it, in a de facto way, administers parts of southern Lebanon, as well as other areas where it's strong. It's held "}
{"id": "1205099876", "date": "2023-10-11", "guest": "Daniel Byman", "title": "How was Hamas able to launch such a devastating attack on Israel?", "question_index": 9, "text": "Do you think that Hamas looked at what Ukraine has been able to do in fighting against Russia's invasion and some of their tactics?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is a question that I think commissions and press investigations are going to be trying to answer for months and even years to come. And I want to confess, I did not think Hamas was capable of suc"}
{"id": "1205099876", "date": "2023-10-11", "guest": "Daniel Byman", "title": "How was Hamas able to launch such a devastating attack on Israel?", "question_index": 10, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Daniel Byman. He's a fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies and a professor at Georgetown University. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I haven't seen direct indications that Hamas tacticians have been looking at the Ukraine example. What I would say, though, is Hamas in general has emphasized the idea of resistance with a moral compo"}
{"id": "1205099876", "date": "2023-10-11", "guest": "Daniel Byman", "title": "How was Hamas able to launch such a devastating attack on Israel?", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. If you're just joining us, my guest is Daniel Byman. He is a senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a professor at Georgetown University. He's an expert on the Middle East and terrorism and the author of several books, including \"A High Price: The Triumphs And Failures Of Israeli Counterterrorism.\" Let me ask you a few basic questions about Hamas. How would you describe Hamas in terms of what it stands for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I haven't seen direct indications that Hamas tacticians have been looking at the Ukraine example. What I would say, though, is Hamas in general has emphasized the idea of resistance with a moral compo"}
{"id": "1205099876", "date": "2023-10-11", "guest": "Daniel Byman", "title": "How was Hamas able to launch such a devastating attack on Israel?", "question_index": 12, "text": "In its founding mission statement - I'm not sure what it's officially called - it calls for, you know - what? - the eradication of the state of Israel. What's the wording?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Hamas has gone through a tremendous evolution since it was formally created in 1987. But at its core, it tries to mix two different basic goals. One is Palestinian nationalism, that Hamas is seekin"}
{"id": "1205099876", "date": "2023-10-11", "guest": "Daniel Byman", "title": "How was Hamas able to launch such a devastating attack on Israel?", "question_index": 13, "text": "That's the gist of it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that's correct. That is eradication. I would have to check. But I think that sentiment is right, that..."}
{"id": "1205099876", "date": "2023-10-11", "guest": "Daniel Byman", "title": "How was Hamas able to launch such a devastating attack on Israel?", "question_index": 14, "text": "Yeah. So one thing I'm not sure of - what does that mean? Does that mean that Israel should be, you know, not a Jewish state, but just a state and have Palestinians and Israelis not only have equal rights, but, you know, have the right of return for Palestinians? Or does it mean that Jews in Israel should be killed? Like, what - how do you interpret it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Israel is..."}
{"id": "1205099876", "date": "2023-10-11", "guest": "Daniel Byman", "title": "How was Hamas able to launch such a devastating attack on Israel?", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well, we have to take another break here. So let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Daniel Byman, and he's a senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. He's a professor at Georgetown and author of books about the Middle East and terrorism, including \"A High Price: The Triumphs And Failures Of Israeli Counterterrorism.\" We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So when Hamas made that original statement, its goal was very, very maximal, that Israel was a fundamentally illegitimate state, and it saw this in the context of colonialism. So the people who are Is"}
{"id": "1205099876", "date": "2023-10-11", "guest": "Daniel Byman", "title": "How was Hamas able to launch such a devastating attack on Israel?", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're talking about the Hamas attack on Israel and what the world consequences are for this, in addition to the consequences for Israel. And we're also kind of looking at the background of this attack - at Hamas, at Israeli policy. If you're just joining us, my guest is Daniel Byman, and he is a senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. He's a professor at Georgetown University. He's an expert on the Middle East and terrorism. And his many books include \"A High Price: The Triumphs And Failures Of Israeli Counterterrorism.\" Tell us a little bit about how and when Hamas was founded.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So when Hamas made that original statement, its goal was very, very maximal, that Israel was a fundamentally illegitimate state, and it saw this in the context of colonialism. So the people who are Is"}
{"id": "1205099876", "date": "2023-10-11", "guest": "Daniel Byman", "title": "How was Hamas able to launch such a devastating attack on Israel?", "question_index": 17, "text": "How did Hamas gain control over Gaza? And we're talking about, like, 2007. What happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So after the 1967 war, Israel takes over the Gaza Strip. And this is a fundamental change for Gaza, because previously it had been under Egyptian control. And the Egyptian government at the time was b"}
{"id": "1205099876", "date": "2023-10-11", "guest": "Daniel Byman", "title": "How was Hamas able to launch such a devastating attack on Israel?", "question_index": 18, "text": "But people always refer to how Hamas seized power, and you're talking about, like, winning an election. So what happened in between there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In the 1990s, there was a peace process where many people, myself included, really hoped that there would be a lasting peace between Israel and the Palestinians. And Gaza was run by Yasser Arafat and "}
{"id": "1205099876", "date": "2023-10-11", "guest": "Daniel Byman", "title": "How was Hamas able to launch such a devastating attack on Israel?", "question_index": 19, "text": "So Hamas governs the Gaza Strip. It's also a military group. It's shown its strength as fighters. How has it been at governing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So in 2006, Hamas wins the election. But this is disputed, and there's a question of, does Hamas control Gaza or - and how many rights does the Palestinian Authority have? And there is economic isolat"}
{"id": "1205099876", "date": "2023-10-11", "guest": "Daniel Byman", "title": "How was Hamas able to launch such a devastating attack on Israel?", "question_index": 20, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Daniel Byman. He's a fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies and a professor at Georgetown University. He's an expert on the Middle East and terrorism. And his books include \"A High Price: The Triumphs And Failures Of Israeli Counterterrorism.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Hamas has both strengths and weaknesses at governing. It has governed Gaza better than its predecessors. So Gaza was governed by Egypt and then by Israel and then by the Palestinian Authority. And "}
{"id": "1205099876", "date": "2023-10-11", "guest": "Daniel Byman", "title": "How was Hamas able to launch such a devastating attack on Israel?", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. If you're just joining us, my guest is Daniel Byman. He is a senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, a professor at Georgetown University. He's an expert on the Middle East and terrorism and the author of several books, including \"A High Price: The Triumphs And Failures Of Israeli Counterterrorism.\" As we've witnessed, Hamas has thousands of missiles. And it has - what? - tens of thousands more?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Hamas has both strengths and weaknesses at governing. It has governed Gaza better than its predecessors. So Gaza was governed by Egypt and then by Israel and then by the Palestinian Authority. And "}
{"id": "1205099876", "date": "2023-10-11", "guest": "Daniel Byman", "title": "How was Hamas able to launch such a devastating attack on Israel?", "question_index": 22, "text": "Gaza is a small territory. And how does Hamas manage to get those missiles and to hide them? And I know a lot of them are hidden, like, underneath homes and perhaps underneath mosques. That's what Israel claims. But nevertheless, tens of thousands of missiles. How do you get them in, and how do you hide them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's probably correct, and a very wide range, some short range, but many that are able to hit deep into Israel."}
{"id": "1205099876", "date": "2023-10-11", "guest": "Daniel Byman", "title": "How was Hamas able to launch such a devastating attack on Israel?", "question_index": 23, "text": "I want to ask you about countries that support Hamas. We've talked a little bit about Iran. I want to ask you about Qatar. They're, I think, in an unusual situation. They've provided a billion dollars in aid to Hamas. But the U.S. has a major military base in Qatar, and I can't quite reconcile that. So why don't you try to explain what's going on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Hamas' capability comes from two overlapping sources. Iran has provided a range of missiles to Hamas, and some of these are smuggled in through tunnels, usually from Egypt. In addition, Iran has pr"}
{"id": "1205099876", "date": "2023-10-11", "guest": "Daniel Byman", "title": "How was Hamas able to launch such a devastating attack on Israel?", "question_index": 24, "text": "The Saudis and Israel were starting to normalize relations. What do you think the war is going to do to possibly change that - interrupt it, prevent it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Qatar is one of those countries that has tried to punch above its diplomatic weight. It's a very small country, but it's a very rich country, and it's had a very active foreign policy for over a de"}
{"id": "1205099876", "date": "2023-10-11", "guest": "Daniel Byman", "title": "How was Hamas able to launch such a devastating attack on Israel?", "question_index": 25, "text": "Do you think that Iran saw some kind of normalizing between the Saudis and Israel as a threat to Iran?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In the short term, the war is a tremendous setback to Saudi-Israeli normalization. The Saudi-Israeli normalization was primarily about a shared enemy, Iran, and also Saudi Arabia's desire to get some "}
{"id": "1205099876", "date": "2023-10-11", "guest": "Daniel Byman", "title": "How was Hamas able to launch such a devastating attack on Israel?", "question_index": 26, "text": "Like Hamas.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Certainly Iran's leaders saw Israel's normalization with Saudi Arabia and its previous normalization with countries like the UAE and Bahrain as a threat to Iran, in part because these countries have b"}
{"id": "1205099876", "date": "2023-10-11", "guest": "Daniel Byman", "title": "How was Hamas able to launch such a devastating attack on Israel?", "question_index": 27, "text": "Let's take another short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Daniel Byman. He's a senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. He's a professor at Georgetown and author of several books about the Middle East and terrorism, including \"A High Price: The Triumphs And Failures Of Israeli Counterterrorism.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. Like Hamas and like Hezbollah. And there have been some reports that Iran was involved in this particular operation. I've seen indications that they have and a lot of people saying they haven"}
{"id": "1205099876", "date": "2023-10-11", "guest": "Daniel Byman", "title": "How was Hamas able to launch such a devastating attack on Israel?", "question_index": 28, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Daniel Byman, who has written extensively about the Middle East, and he's a senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies. He's a professor at Georgetown and author of several books, including \"A High Price: The Triumphs And Failures Of Israeli Counterterrorism.\" We've been talking about Gaza 'cause that's where Hamas is, but, you know, there's also the West Bank. And I'm wondering what you think this means, this war means for the West Bank and for what Israeli policy will be in the West Bank. And again, you know, the elected governing body in the West Bank is Fatah, which had been headed by Yasser Arafat. And Mahmoud Abbas became the successor, and he's been in power a very long time. He's in his 80s. He's considered out of touch by many people. So can we focus on the West Bank a little bit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. Like Hamas and like Hezbollah. And there have been some reports that Iran was involved in this particular operation. I've seen indications that they have and a lot of people saying they haven"}
{"id": "1205099876", "date": "2023-10-11", "guest": "Daniel Byman", "title": "How was Hamas able to launch such a devastating attack on Israel?", "question_index": 29, "text": "What is your worst fear about what this new war might lead to? And do you have any hope that the end might resolve in a step forward, that whatever settlement is eventually reached or whatever victory is eventually reached might lead to some kind of brighter future?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So in 2021, the West Bank saw the worst violence it had seen in many years. In 2022, it got worse. And this year, it seems on track to be even worse. So many of us were focused on violence in the West"}
{"id": "1205099876", "date": "2023-10-11", "guest": "Daniel Byman", "title": "How was Hamas able to launch such a devastating attack on Israel?", "question_index": 30, "text": "As somebody who has studied Middle East relations for many years, what's it like for you to watch things fail and fail and fail and then get worse and worse with periods of getting better, but then getting worse?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My worst fear is that the conflict goes from being one between Israel and Hamas in Gaza to a much broader one, that unrest on the West Bank grows and spills over and the situation there becomes much m"}
{"id": "1205099876", "date": "2023-10-11", "guest": "Daniel Byman", "title": "How was Hamas able to launch such a devastating attack on Israel?", "question_index": 31, "text": "Daniel Byman, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's incredibly disheartening that you have hope, and that hope could be in the 1990s with peace talks. It could be 2011 with what seemed like the outbreak of democracy in the Arab world. And then you"}
{"id": "1205099876", "date": "2023-10-11", "guest": "Daniel Byman", "title": "How was Hamas able to launch such a devastating attack on Israel?", "question_index": 32, "text": "Daniel Byman is a senior fellow at the Center for Strategic and International Studies and a professor at Georgetown University.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My pleasure."}
{"id": "1205099876", "date": "2023-10-11", "guest": "Daniel Byman", "title": "How was Hamas able to launch such a devastating attack on Israel?", "question_index": 33, "text": "Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be Marty Baron, who was the executive editor of The Washington Post during the Trump presidency and when the Post was acquired by Jeff Bezos, as well as the transition that followed. Baron's new memoir is called \"Collision Of Power: Trump, Bezos, And The Washington Post.\" I hope you'll join us. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Ann Marie Baldonado, Therese Madden, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley, and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "II. SLOW\")"}
{"id": "1206760032", "date": "2023-10-18", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "How one Christian legal group is shaping policy, from abortion to LGBTQ rights", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The Christian conservative movement's most influential arm is the Alliance Defending Freedom, writes my guest, David Kirkpatrick in The New Yorker in an article titled \"The Next Targets For The Group That Overturned Roe.\" The Alliance Defending Freedom, the ADF, is an activist legal group that works through the courts where it's been very successful. Overturning Roe v. Wade is one of 15 Supreme Court cases that the ADF has won. Others cited by Kirkpatrick include allowing employer-sponsored health insurance to exclude birth control, rolling back limits on government support for religious organizations, blocking pandemic-related public health rules and establishing the right of a baker to refuse to make a cake for a same-sex wedding. The ADF's current goals include restricting access to the abortion pill, mifepristone, or banning it altogether, as well as limiting the authority of the FDA, which approved the pill and restricting LGBTQ rights with an emphasis on children and adults who identify as transgender. A little later, we'll talk with Kirkpatrick about his interview last week with one of the leaders of Hamas about the attack on Israel. David Kirkpatrick is a staff writer at The New Yorker. For 22 years, he was a reporter for The New York Times. He covered the Christian conservative movement and later covered the Arab Spring. During the Trump administration, he investigated ethically questionable ties between members of the administration and several Gulf nations, including Saudi Arabia. We recorded our interview yesterday morning. David Kirkpatrick, welcome back to FRESH AIR. So it seems to me that the ADF, the Alliance for Defending Freedom, is just not a very well-known group. Is that intentional? Are they trying to avoid public scrutiny?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1206760032", "date": "2023-10-18", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "How one Christian legal group is shaping policy, from abortion to LGBTQ rights", "question_index": 1, "text": "The Justice Department is appealing the mifepristone ruling. Tell us what the ruling was and the argument that the ADF made.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think they're increasingly welcoming public scrutiny, to be honest. I think that in recent years they have changed their strategy and no longer are seeking only to appeal to the Christian conservati"}
{"id": "1206760032", "date": "2023-10-18", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "How one Christian legal group is shaping policy, from abortion to LGBTQ rights", "question_index": 2, "text": "So did they win on all those counts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the ADF made quite a striking argument. Mifepristone is a pill used in about half of the abortions performed in the United States, and it has been approved for more than two decades under admini"}
{"id": "1206760032", "date": "2023-10-18", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "How one Christian legal group is shaping policy, from abortion to LGBTQ rights", "question_index": 3, "text": "So the judge, Matthew Kacsmaryk, who ruled in favor in a lower court, who ruled in favor of the ADF, he's a Trump appointee who had previously worked as the deputy general counsel of First Liberty Institute, which is a conservative Christian advocacy organization that's received grants from the ADF. What does that mean? I mean, is that a conflict of interest?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "At the district court level, they did. They won a sweeping victory, which, frankly, I think was beyond even their own expectations. Then a stay was immediately issued. It went to an appellate court an"}
{"id": "1206760032", "date": "2023-10-18", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "How one Christian legal group is shaping policy, from abortion to LGBTQ rights", "question_index": 4, "text": "So what are they pushing for now? What is the ADF pushing for now for mifepristone? Do they want a total ban?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We don't usually speak about the past work of a judge as posing a conflict of interest. The question is forum shopping. You know, ADF would say, well, look, our doctors were in Texas, and this was the"}
{"id": "1206760032", "date": "2023-10-18", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "How one Christian legal group is shaping policy, from abortion to LGBTQ rights", "question_index": 5, "text": "You quote from that tape that you just referred to - I just - I want to quote an excerpt from it. And this is the speaker, the head of development. So this is the fundraising arm of the ADF. He says \"this is a massive pushback on the FDA and the Biden administration from a regulatory standpoint. And so, you know, there's just a ton of corruption in the bureaucratic state, and pushing back on these agencies is a big deal.\" So it sounds like part of their goal is to try to undo the so-called bureaucratic state or administrative state, which is one of the big conservative goals, one of the goals that was pushed by Steve Bannon.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, the ADF would love a total ban. I mean, one of the things I discovered in this reporting is I was given access to an internal conference call among their fundraising department right after the"}
{"id": "1206760032", "date": "2023-10-18", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "How one Christian legal group is shaping policy, from abortion to LGBTQ rights", "question_index": 6, "text": "How big was the ADF's role in overturning Roe? both the road leading up to it and the Supreme Court case itself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, in America, we have this phenomenon where groups on the left end up caring about other causes on the left and groups on the right end up caring about other causes on the right. And tha"}
{"id": "1206760032", "date": "2023-10-18", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "How one Christian legal group is shaping policy, from abortion to LGBTQ rights", "question_index": 7, "text": "Are they trying to overturn the decision that legalized gay marriage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was enormous. I mean, one reason why I felt comfortable saying that they are now the most influential part of the Christian conservative movement is they're not just, you know, taking on a client w"}
{"id": "1206760032", "date": "2023-10-18", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "How one Christian legal group is shaping policy, from abortion to LGBTQ rights", "question_index": 8, "text": "What else is the ADF doing on behalf of restricting LGBTQ rights?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, that's an interesting question. And I - when I spoke to Kristen Waggoner, who runs the organization, I pressed her on that because the cases that they've brought look precisely like the kind"}
{"id": "1206760032", "date": "2023-10-18", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "How one Christian legal group is shaping policy, from abortion to LGBTQ rights", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is David Kirkpatrick, a staff writer for The New Yorker. He writes about the Alliance Defending Freedom in the article \"The Next Targets For The Group That Overturned Roe.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the crux of the issue for them now, I think, is around transgender youth. Specifically, I think, the place they've had the most success is in sports - you know, the question of whether a girl bo"}
{"id": "1206760032", "date": "2023-10-18", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "How one Christian legal group is shaping policy, from abortion to LGBTQ rights", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with David Kirkpatrick, a staff writer for The New Yorker. We're talking about the Alliance Defending Freedom, an activist Christian conservative legal group. His article about the ADF is titled \"The Next Targets For The Group That Overturned Roe.\" So you write a little bit about Kristen Waggoner, who's the ADF's chief executive and general counsel. And you say that she's said, over time, that liberal government officials were threatening to set up a new kind of police state, one in which dissenters who believe that marriage can involve only a man and a woman are forced to salute the rainbow flags flying outside every town hall, in which teachers are required to indoctrinate children to the belief that gender is not binary, and in which shelters for battered women must make room for trans females. Is that - does that summarize the larger point of view of the ADF?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the crux of the issue for them now, I think, is around transgender youth. Specifically, I think, the place they've had the most success is in sports - you know, the question of whether a girl bo"}
{"id": "1206760032", "date": "2023-10-18", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "How one Christian legal group is shaping policy, from abortion to LGBTQ rights", "question_index": 11, "text": "I just want to mention, you used the word gay sodomy because one of the cases relating to gay rights overturned a sodomy law in Texas. So that's, I imagine, why you used that expression.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think it does. And to be honest, you know, I think we should take a moment to try to empathize with where they're coming from. You know, suppose you're someone who adheres to the view of sexua"}
{"id": "1206760032", "date": "2023-10-18", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "How one Christian legal group is shaping policy, from abortion to LGBTQ rights", "question_index": 12, "text": "The ADF uses the language of the civil rights movement but turns that language against the issues that the civil rights movement and civil liberties groups stand for. Is that fair to say?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I did. You know, I'm 53 years old. So when I went through college, there was a Supreme Court precedent approving the right of states to criminalize gay sodomy. And that was overturned in 2003. S"}
{"id": "1206760032", "date": "2023-10-18", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "How one Christian legal group is shaping policy, from abortion to LGBTQ rights", "question_index": 13, "text": "What do opponents of the ADF have to say about the ADF's approach of saying that they support the rights of a minority group, people who oppose LGBTQ rights?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, ADF certainly wouldn't put it that way. I mean, that's a liberal view, right? The liberal view is that the civil rights movement is about expanding individual personal freedoms, including the ri"}
{"id": "1206760032", "date": "2023-10-18", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "How one Christian legal group is shaping policy, from abortion to LGBTQ rights", "question_index": 14, "text": "So you got access to some leaked recordings, and one of them is a talk given by Jeffrey Ventrella, who's a senior counsel and senior vice president of academic affairs and training at the ADF. And he designed the curriculum for a number of ADF training programs, including the Blackstone Legal Fellowship, which trains law students in the kind of Christian conservative thinking and tactics of the ADF. So this is part of an internal lecture called Lordship and Liberty, and he's giving the lecture at the Blackstone Fellowship. And this excerpt of the talk is about the role of Christianity in America.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, basically, they said it's double talk, you know, that you are putting the freedom to discriminate, effectively, over the freedom from discrimination. So they think it's completely backwards and,"}
{"id": "1206760032", "date": "2023-10-18", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "How one Christian legal group is shaping policy, from abortion to LGBTQ rights", "question_index": 15, "text": "And so that was Jeffrey Ventrella, who's a senior counsel and senior vice president of academic affairs and training at the Alliance Defending Freedom. And that tape that we heard was leaked to you by a group called Documented.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Jesus Christ is Lord. That is the first and final assertion Christians make about all of reality, including politics. Believers now assert by faith what one day will be manifest to the sight of all. E"}
{"id": "1206760032", "date": "2023-10-18", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "How one Christian legal group is shaping policy, from abortion to LGBTQ rights", "question_index": 16, "text": "So I don't know. Is he saying that the ADF's goal is creating a Christian nation in the U.S.?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. That's correct."}
{"id": "1206760032", "date": "2023-10-18", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "How one Christian legal group is shaping policy, from abortion to LGBTQ rights", "question_index": 17, "text": "Let's take another break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is David Kirkpatrick. He's a staff writer for The New Yorker. He writes about the Alliance Defending Freedom in the article \"The Next Targets For The Group That Overturned Roe.\" The Alliance is an activist, Christian conservative legal group. We'll talk more about it, and we'll also talk about Hamas. He recently interviewed one of the leaders of Hamas. But first, we have to take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they would say no. Let's be totally clear about that. They really take offense at the notion that they are advocating some kind of theocracy. And they would say very emphatically that their unde"}
{"id": "1206760032", "date": "2023-10-18", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "How one Christian legal group is shaping policy, from abortion to LGBTQ rights", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with David Kirkpatrick about the Alliance Defending Freedom, which he describes as the Christian conservative movement's most influential arm. He writes about the ADF in an article titled \"The Next Targets For The Group That Overturned Roe.\" It's published in The New Yorker, where he's a staff writer. The ADF is an activist legal group that works through the courts, where it's been very successful. The case overturning Roe v. Wade is one of 15 Supreme Court cases that the ADF has won. Its mission now includes banning mifepristone, the abortion pill, and restricting LGBTQ rights. Some very prominent people have taught or taken the lectures provided by the ADF's educational arm. So who are some of those people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they would say no. Let's be totally clear about that. They really take offense at the notion that they are advocating some kind of theocracy. And they would say very emphatically that their unde"}
{"id": "1206760032", "date": "2023-10-18", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "How one Christian legal group is shaping policy, from abortion to LGBTQ rights", "question_index": 19, "text": "Two very prominent congressmen have been connected to the ADF - Steve Scalise, who lost the bid to be House speaker, and Jim Jordan, who, as we record this Tuesday morning, is hoping to get enough votes to become the House speaker. Last fall, they hosted an ADF reception for newly elected lawmakers. What's their connection to the ADF?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the one that's the most interesting is Supreme Court Justice Amy Coney Barrett, because she taught there many times. And yet during her confirmation hearings, she told the Judiciary Committee th"}
{"id": "1206760032", "date": "2023-10-18", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "How one Christian legal group is shaping policy, from abortion to LGBTQ rights", "question_index": 20, "text": "Are a lot of the lawyers or judges who they train active now in legal defense or in the courts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm not sure that either of them has a specific connection to the ADF, but I think what's happening here, as we mentioned earlier, is the ADF has become a more and more important part of the conservat"}
{"id": "1206760032", "date": "2023-10-18", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "How one Christian legal group is shaping policy, from abortion to LGBTQ rights", "question_index": 21, "text": "Earlier this year, two federal judges resolved lawsuits, in part by ordering litigants to submit to ADF training in the First Amendment. One of the cases was a case against Southwest Airlines by a flight attendant who claims she'd been fired because of her opposition to abortion. Southwest is appealing the case. But how was ADF training - how did that figure into the decision?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Who they train - yes. I think what you're referring to there is this fellowship they run, the Blackstone Fellowship. So that's for first-year law students in the summer between their first and second "}
{"id": "1206760032", "date": "2023-10-18", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "How one Christian legal group is shaping policy, from abortion to LGBTQ rights", "question_index": 22, "text": "You say that during the previous Supreme Court session, alumni of the ADF's training program clerked for Amy Coney Barrett and Sam Alito at the Supreme Court and helped them with the web designer's case - the web designer who said she wouldn't design a website for - was it a gay wedding?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in that case, what the judge said - he approved a settlement that required the lawyers for Southwest to take lessons in the First Amendment from ADF. And then - Southwest is now appealing that. "}
{"id": "1206760032", "date": "2023-10-18", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "How one Christian legal group is shaping policy, from abortion to LGBTQ rights", "question_index": 23, "text": "Yeah, and also for the Justice Department request to stay the mifepristone ban. So that's reaching pretty high up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, same-sex wedding."}
{"id": "1206760032", "date": "2023-10-18", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "How one Christian legal group is shaping policy, from abortion to LGBTQ rights", "question_index": 24, "text": "Well, we need to take another break here, so let me reintroduce you. My guest is David Kirkpatrick, a staff writer for The New Yorker. In a recent article, he writes about the Alliance Defending Freedom. The article's called \"The Next Targets For The Group That Overturned Roe.\" He also has a new article in which he interviews one of the leaders of Hamas, and we're going to talk about that after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I thought that was a real measure of just how mainstream the Blackstone Fellowship and ADF has become and how successful. Now, obviously, you know, Justice Samuel Alito and Justice Amy Coney Bar"}
{"id": "1206760032", "date": "2023-10-18", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "How one Christian legal group is shaping policy, from abortion to LGBTQ rights", "question_index": 25, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with David Kirkpatrick, a staff writer for The New Yorker. Earlier in the show, we were talking about his article on the Christian conservative legal group, the Alliance Defending Freedom. We're going to pivot to the Middle East. Kirkpatrick reported on the region when he was the Cairo bureau chief for the New York Times during the Arab Spring. Late last week, he and his colleague Adam Rasgon interviewed a longtime political leader of Hamas, Mousa Abu Marzouk. Their article about the interview with Marzouk is posted on The New Yorker website. Marzouk is living in exile in Qatar. He's 72 now. He's been a member of Hamas for many years, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I thought that was a real measure of just how mainstream the Blackstone Fellowship and ADF has become and how successful. Now, obviously, you know, Justice Samuel Alito and Justice Amy Coney Bar"}
{"id": "1206760032", "date": "2023-10-18", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "How one Christian legal group is shaping policy, from abortion to LGBTQ rights", "question_index": 26, "text": "I was really surprised to read that he says he learned about the invasion of Israel after it happened on Saturday morning. How come he didn't know about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He was really in on the ground floor. I mean, he was one of its earliest political leaders when the group first came together in 1987."}
{"id": "1206760032", "date": "2023-10-18", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "How one Christian legal group is shaping policy, from abortion to LGBTQ rights", "question_index": 27, "text": "Did he offer any insights into how Hamas evaded Israeli intelligence and the Israeli military?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you've got to remember that Hamas is acutely aware of Israeli surveillance. They're probably also aware that wherever their exiled leaders are - in this case, in Doha - they also are going to be"}
{"id": "1206760032", "date": "2023-10-18", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "How one Christian legal group is shaping policy, from abortion to LGBTQ rights", "question_index": 28, "text": "He said that Hamas was ready to release women, children and the elderly who were being held captive by Hamas, in addition to releasing citizens of other countries if Israel ceased its military campaign. How do you interpret that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, he did not. In fact, at certain points, he sounded almost surprised by their own success. You know, Hamas, like the rest of the world, believes that Israel has one of the most formidable intellige"}
{"id": "1206760032", "date": "2023-10-18", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "How one Christian legal group is shaping policy, from abortion to LGBTQ rights", "question_index": 29, "text": "How did he justify the attacks?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He presented it as a gesture of magnanimity, basically. You know, we're civilized people, we'll release these noncombatants. I think more realistically, it was an effort to begin negotiations. You kno"}
{"id": "1206760032", "date": "2023-10-18", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "How one Christian legal group is shaping policy, from abortion to LGBTQ rights", "question_index": 30, "text": "Did he have any impression about whether the conflict between Israel and Hamas will lead to a wider regional war?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we pressed him quite a bit about that. Not so much about the justification as about the timing. You know, from his point of view, Hamas is a resistance group. Hamas is about liberating Palestine"}
{"id": "1206760032", "date": "2023-10-18", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "How one Christian legal group is shaping policy, from abortion to LGBTQ rights", "question_index": 31, "text": "And they're also, like, funded by Iran, as is Hamas.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We pressed him about that, as well. You know, there's been a lot of attention to Hezbollah, the Lebanese militant group which also champions the Palestinian cause. And would they escalate..."}
{"id": "1206760032", "date": "2023-10-18", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "How one Christian legal group is shaping policy, from abortion to LGBTQ rights", "question_index": 32, "text": "He told you that one of his concerns is that in spite of this war between Israel and Hamas, that it might delay the Saudis and the Israelis normalizing relations, but it's not going to doom the future of that relationship.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, to a - much more so. You know, Hezbollah is much more directly and fully a client of Iran. It's a Shiite group like the Shia government of Iran. And so there's been a lot of attention to the ques"}
{"id": "1206760032", "date": "2023-10-18", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "How one Christian legal group is shaping policy, from abortion to LGBTQ rights", "question_index": 33, "text": "How did you get an interview with him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, given the extraordinary toll that the Israeli retaliation is taking on the Palestinian population of Gaza - you know, very predictably, many more Palestinians have died already than the numb"}
{"id": "1206760032", "date": "2023-10-18", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "How one Christian legal group is shaping policy, from abortion to LGBTQ rights", "question_index": 34, "text": "How important is his role in Hamas?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's my colleague, Adam Rasgon. He had worked for The Jerusalem Post and for The New York Times in Jerusalem and covered Palestinian affairs very closely. And so he was quite immediately in to"}
{"id": "1206760032", "date": "2023-10-18", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "How one Christian legal group is shaping policy, from abortion to LGBTQ rights", "question_index": 35, "text": "So you talked to somebody who bears some responsibility for a horrific attack on Israelis. I mean, we're talking about slaughter. We're talking about, you know, the slaughter of young people at a concert, the slaughter of elderly people, of babies. How do you talk to somebody who represents that group, who is a leader of Hamas, and kind of stay calm in the interview and figure out, you know, what questions to ask and how to, like, not get angry?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's been a senior figure in Hamas from the very beginning. I mean, he was in on the ground floor when the organization was founded in 1987, when it first came together, and, at different times, I thi"}
{"id": "1206760032", "date": "2023-10-18", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "How one Christian legal group is shaping policy, from abortion to LGBTQ rights", "question_index": 36, "text": "My guest is David Kirkpatrick, a staff writer for The New Yorker. The article he co-wrote about his interview with Mousa Abu Marzouk, one of the leaders of Hamas, is posted on The New Yorker website. We'll hear more of our interview that we recorded yesterday after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's something we thought about a lot, especially from the perspective of handing someone a microphone, you know, someone whose organization has just committed a horrific attack, killed a lot "}
{"id": "1206760032", "date": "2023-10-18", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "How one Christian legal group is shaping policy, from abortion to LGBTQ rights", "question_index": 37, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with David Kirkpatrick. He's a staff writer for The New Yorker. A few days ago, he and Adam Rasgon published an article on the New Yorker website about their interview with Mousa Abu Marzouk, a senior political leader of Hamas. How do you respond to Marzouk's statement that, we have tried - we being Hamas - we've tried for years to explore coexistence with Israel when they've stated, as a goal, the destruction of Israel?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's something we thought about a lot, especially from the perspective of handing someone a microphone, you know, someone whose organization has just committed a horrific attack, killed a lot "}
{"id": "1206760032", "date": "2023-10-18", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "How one Christian legal group is shaping policy, from abortion to LGBTQ rights", "question_index": 38, "text": "Surely he must know that Israel would have a very massive response to the invasion of Israel by Hamas. And thousands of Gazans are dying now in the bombing campaign. And he must have known something like that would happen. And they have no place to go. I mean, their - the borders are closed. They've been told - people in the north have been told to, you know, flee their homes and go south. But people who've done that have been killed in bombs in the south and in a convoy along the way to the south. Homes are being destroyed. When this is over, a lot of people will be homeless. They'll have no home to return to. Do you think he feels any responsibility for that? I mean, because the people who he's trying to defend are going to be in much worse shape right now, those who survive.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the answer is more complicated than that, you know, as it always is in these kinds of things. You know, if you look at Hamas' behavior in recent years, they have shown signs of a willingness to "}
{"id": "1206760032", "date": "2023-10-18", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "How one Christian legal group is shaping policy, from abortion to LGBTQ rights", "question_index": 39, "text": "You know, it was reported that the leader of Iran and MBS, Mohammed bin Salman, the leader of Saudi Arabia, had a 45-minute phone call the other day, and it was the first time they spoke. What's the meaning of that? What's the significance of that, do you think?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. We should acknowledge that his older brother was killed in an airstrike, you know, shortly before we interviewed him. You know, I met him 10 years ago. We talked to him this week. I think he mus"}
{"id": "1206760032", "date": "2023-10-18", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "How one Christian legal group is shaping policy, from abortion to LGBTQ rights", "question_index": 40, "text": "That's a hopeful sign.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it's an indication that both sides are eager to avoid a regional war at this time."}
{"id": "1206760032", "date": "2023-10-18", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "How one Christian legal group is shaping policy, from abortion to LGBTQ rights", "question_index": 41, "text": "Right. Well, on that note, I want to thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a hopeful sign, but let's not get carried away. You know, we're still in a situation where Iran is on the brink of developing a nuclear bomb, certainly within sight of it. Saudi Arabia is pushi"}
{"id": "1206760032", "date": "2023-10-18", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "How one Christian legal group is shaping policy, from abortion to LGBTQ rights", "question_index": 42, "text": "My interview with David Kirkpatrick was recorded yesterday. His article \"What Was Hamas Thinking?\" written with Adam Rasgon, is on The New Yorker website. Kirkpatrick's article about the Christian conservative legal group Alliance Defending Freedom is on the website and in a print edition of The New Yorker. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be Greta Lee, the star of the film \"Past Lives.\" Our film critic Justin Chang calls it an exquisitely thoughtful and moving film and the most affecting love story he's seen in ages. Greta Lee's other credits include the TV shows \"Russian Doll,\" \"Girls,\" \"Inside Amy Schumer\" and \"High Maintenance.\" She's currently a star of the series \"The Morning Show.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a pleasure."}
{"id": "1206760032", "date": "2023-10-18", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "How one Christian legal group is shaping policy, from abortion to LGBTQ rights", "question_index": 43, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Ann Marie Baldonado, Therese Madden, Seth Kelley, and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a pleasure."}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. \"When Art, Sex, And Politics Collided.\" I was surprised to see that that was the subtitle of the new book, \"Charlie Chaplin Vs. America,\" about the movie star, screenwriter and director. I always thought that he was beloved. He's famous for his silent films, including \"Modern Times,\" which satirized how machines, including assembly lines, had become dehumanizing, forcing people to take their cues from machines. One of his sound films, \"The Great Dictator,\" is famous for the way Chaplin satirized Hitler and the authoritarian mindset. \"The Great Dictator\" got Chaplin into trouble. His affairs with young women, a paternity suit in which he was wrongly accused, getting smeared in gossip columns and investigations into his alleged Communist ties made things far worse. The FBI compiled a 1,900-page file on Chaplin. When he left America for a trip to England in 1952 to promote his latest film, \"Limelight,\" his reentry papers were revoked, leading him to spend the rest of his life in exile. My guest is the author of \"Charlie Chaplin Vs. America,\" Scott Eyman. It will be published next week. He's also the author of many books about other movie stars and directors, including John Wayne, Cary Grant, John Ford and Cecil B. DeMille. Thursday evening, Eyman will be co-hosting a Turner Classic Movie retrospective of several Chaplin films, including \"Modern Times,\" \"The Great Dictator,\" \"Monsieur Verdoux\" and \"Limelight.\" Scott Eyman, welcome to FRESH AIR. I found this book really interesting. I didn't realize how controversial Chaplin was and how many different agencies had investigated him - the FBI, the CIA, the Immigration and Naturalization Service, the Post Office, the House Un-American Activities Committee. So his most controversial film was the 1940 film \"The Great Dictator.\" This was a satire of Hitler. It was a - it was made a year before the U.S. entered World War II. What was controversial about ridiculing Hitler?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 1, "text": "This is the Jack Warner as in the Warner Brothers company.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he started shooting the film in September 1939. It came out on October 1940. At this point in history, America is a isolationist country, as is Congress. Hitler was not our problem. The Jews of "}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 2, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 3, "text": "One of the reasons that I think that his studio didn't want him to make the film is that they wanted all their films to play in Germany, and Germany was definitely not going to play an anti-Hitler film. And also, the Germans, for a while, thought that Chaplin was Jewish. Why did they think he was Jewish?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "but he was passing along the story. He didn't really need to pass along the story. Chaplin was totally committed. But nobody wanted that film made. The British Foreign Office didn't want the film made"}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 4, "text": "So what was the impact of \"The Great Dictator\" on Charlie Chaplin's life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were obsessed with the idea that Chaplin was Jewish. That's a very good question, because at one point, there was a book published in Germany by a Jewish consortium that included Chaplin in a ros"}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The thing about Chaplin is that he was going to do what he thought was the right thing to do. He didn't listen to committees. He didn't listen to friends who told him you're making a mistake. He had a"}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 6, "text": "So America enters World War II about a year after \"The Great Dictator\" is released. And once we enter the war, Chaplin starts talking about opening a second front on the Russian border. What would that have meant just on a technical level?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He - the audience had always followed him wherever he led. They had followed him into feature motion pictures with \"The Kid\" and \"The Gold Rush\" when people said that they didn't think he could pull o"}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was completely unconcerned with that. He thought the..."}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 8, "text": "All right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Only way for - he didn't get into logistics. He..."}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 9, "text": "So what kind of trouble did this get Chaplain in, the idea of opening up a second front?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Believed that Hitler was a moral and religious and psychological and a death threat to Western democracy, and nothing else mattered except that he'd be defeated, logistics and military personnel an"}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yeah, we'll get into that. So there was a 1,900-page FBI file on Chaplin. It's a lot of pages.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They shadowed him. They began surveilling his house to see if any known communists showed up at his front door for a meeting. That was the approximate cause for a fair amount of the government surveil"}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 11, "text": "What were some of the different chapters in it? What were some of the things they investigated about him over the years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a lot of pages."}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 12, "text": "Did he know this was happening?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You name it. They - it depends on the period you're talking about. Basically, at one time or another, he was the target of the entire security apparatus of the United States of America. You know, they"}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 13, "text": "Did you get access or try to get access through the Freedom of Information Act to the FBI files on Charlie Chaplin?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can't imagine he didn't know. But if he did know, he did not acknowledge it."}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 14, "text": "Oh, I didn't realize that. So you read them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, they've been available for years."}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well, it sounds like he was a man who didn't like to belong to things. I mean, he liked to make his own films and to lead everybody, but he didn't like to belong to groups or parties or anything like that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", would never be privy or a member of a party with a top-down autocratic drift because he could not possibly have done what anybody else wanted him to do, because Chaplin had never done what anybody e"}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 16, "text": "What was their ideology", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think he belonged to..."}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 17, "text": "? Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think he belonged to..."}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 18, "text": "OK, so despite the fact that he was never a member of the Communist Party, he did have friends who were members. And you call him the most prominent victim of the red scare. In 1950, he becomes a target of Senator Joe McCarthy, the senator most responsible for creating hysteria surrounding people alleged to have communist ties. And you write that this turned McCarthy from a backbencher with a drinking problem into a political star. What were the allegations he made against Chaplin?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There you go. He belonged to the Lambs Club in New York, acting - a bunch of actors. He never joined the Director's Guild. He never joined the Screen Actors Guild. No, he was absolutely not a joiner. "}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 19, "text": "So what became of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That he was a termite eating away at the foundation of America, and sooner or later the house is going to collapse. Essentially the same charge that the investigators at the House Committee on Un-Amer"}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 20, "text": "Right. And the FBI found nothing, too, in spite of those 1,900 pages. Did people know that? Because smears tend to stick with you - it's hard to wash them off. So did the charges, did the allegations stay with him even though nobody ever found anything?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nothing, basically, because Chaplin had never been a member of the party. And he never actually was called before Congress. They kept threatening to call him before Congress, but they didn't. And I su"}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 21, "text": "Oh, wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "..."}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 22, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Who had just been put to death, you know?"}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 23, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Scott Eyman, author of the new book \"Charlie Chaplin Vs. America: When Art, Sex, And Politics Collided.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And again, complete lunacy, but there was this steady drip, drip, drip of lunatic disinformation. And gradually, the people that were prone to believe it, believed it. And the people that were not pro"}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Scott Eyman, author of the new book \"Charlie Chaplin Vs. America: When Art, Sex, And Politics Collided.\" So let's start with the sexual allegations that surrounded Charlie Chaplin. One of the things he got into trouble with was his affairs with young women. And you traced this interest in people much younger to when he was 18 and he was infatuated with a 12-year-old. And when he was, like, 52 or 53, he had an affair with Joan Barry when she was 22. And she is somebody who had an affair with J. Paul Getty, who was very, very wealthy. This is the kind of age gap, 53 or 52 versus 22, that still makes many people very uncomfortable today. And I'm wondering if you want to compare the reaction then to the kind of reaction you think it would get now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And again, complete lunacy, but there was this steady drip, drip, drip of lunatic disinformation. And gradually, the people that were prone to believe it, believed it. And the people that were not pro"}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 25, "text": "I want to ask you about the paternity suit filed against him. And this was filed by Joan Berry, the woman who was 22 when he was about 52. And she was asking for a lot of money in this paternity suit. The blood test showed he wasn't the father. But before the blood test, Barry went to gossip columnist Hedda Hopper, who already didn't like Chaplin. Tell us a little bit about Hedda Hopper and her relationship with Chaplin. Like, you know, Barry went to the right person because if she wanted to smear Chaplin, Hedda Hopper was the person to do it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it would cause trouble now. No question it would cause trouble now. I think people are even more sensitive about it now than they were then. At the time he was going to trial in the paternity su"}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 26, "text": "How did he respond?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 27, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Scott Eyman. And he's the author of the new book \"Charlie Chaplin Vs. America: When Art, Sex, And Politics Collided.\" We'll be back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Grudgingly. He wanted to appeal, the courts turned down his appeals, so that was the end of it. So he not only had to pay child support for 18 years for a child that wasn't his, he had to pay the fee "}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 28, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Scott Eyman about his new book, \"Charlie Chaplin Versus America: When Art, Sex, And Politics Collided.\" Chaplin was famous for his silent films and for his 1940 film \"The Great Dictator,\" which was made the year before the U.S. entered World War I, and mocked Hitler. Chaplin is a beloved figure in Hollywood history, but in his time, he was the target of investigations into his alleged communist ties. He was scandalized and gossip columns, condemned for his affairs with young women. And in 1952, on a trip to England, he was banned from returning to the U.S. and lived the rest of his life in exile. I want to talk with you about when Charlie Chaplin was banned from returning home to the U.S. I mean, he was born in England and spent his childhood there, but he spent, you know, the majority of his life in the U.S. He'd gone to England in 1952 to promote his latest film, \"Limelight.\" And right before he left, Hedda Hopper wrote an item in her gossip column saying that he was planning this trip. And then she writes to Richard Nixon, who at the time was a senator from California. What does she write to him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Grudgingly. He wanted to appeal, the courts turned down his appeals, so that was the end of it. So he not only had to pay child support for 18 years for a child that wasn't his, he had to pay the fee "}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 29, "text": "So she wanted government action against Chaplin.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And she was basically trying to foment government action using Richard Nixon as the battering ram."}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 30, "text": "OK. So does Nixon take action on her letter or just file it with the other letters that she's written him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 31, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He writes her a placating letter saying, yes, you're absolutely right. I couldn't agree with you more. And then he changes the subject..."}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 32, "text": "But meanwhile, the attorney general gets the Immigration and Naturalization Service to open an investigation that leads to Chaplin being banned from returning to the U.S. after his trip to England. What reasons do they give for banning him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Because at this - by this time, he's running for vice president on the ticket with Dwight Eisenhower. And he's got bigger fish to fry than Charlie Chaplin or Hedda Hopper. And evidently he does abs"}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 33, "text": "Because...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The reasons were vague. The document - a press conference that the attorney general gave a week after the revocation mentioned Chaplin's leering, sneering attitude towards the United States, mentioned"}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 34, "text": "Why didn't he ever become an American citizen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Because he'd never been convicted of a crime. He had never been convicted of a crime. And that was the way that they deported various people that they didn't want in America, like mafiosi. They wou"}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 35, "text": "You said, had he fought the ban on his returning to the U.S., he would have been allowed in because they didn't really have anything on him. But he didn't fight it. Why didn't he?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because one of his core beliefs was that nationalism was a lethal disease, and it led to things like Adolf Hitler and Nazism in World War II. A friend of his named Max Eastman, who knew him quite well"}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 36, "text": "And he felt he'd been smeared for so many years.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He got his backup. He was enraged. He was furious. And he didn't want to be a guest at the party if he was disinvited."}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 37, "text": "Soon after he was banned from returning to the U.S., there was a campaign to ban his films from theaters. The American Legion passed a resolution urging American movie theaters to boycott his latest film, \"Limelight,\" and every movie in which he appeared. And in their magazine, they published a story about Chaplin, saying his films were a sustained assault on democratic ideals and that Chaplin had long used film as a propaganda medium. And they said \"Modern Times\" is one of the few non-Soviet films constantly shown in exhibition in the Soviet orbit. That was totally false, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, God. Yes, yes. Would he have done this on his own? No. I don't think there's any scenario under which he would have left America on his own. He had a wife. He had four young children, at this poin"}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 38, "text": "So how successful was the campaign to ban Chaplin movies from theaters?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Totally false. None of his films were shown in the Soviet Union until the Gorbachev era because the Soviet Union wouldn't pay the money that Chaplin thought they should to rent the films, and he wasn'"}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 39, "text": "\"Limelight\" was?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Extremely successful. Extremely successful. \"Limelight\" was a huge hit in Europe. Actually, it made more money than any other Chaplin film in terms of European grosses. But it only - it - a lot of pla"}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 40, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Limelight\" was a..."}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 41, "text": "So by the time Chaplin is banned from returning to the United States, few theaters can actually even show his movie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Completely apolitical picture. But they were reacting to - they were still reacting to \"The Great Dictator.\" They were still reacting to \"Modern Times\" and the idea of \"Modern Times\" being anti-cap"}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 42, "text": "For how long?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "True. Absolutely true. And so he had them pulled from release in America."}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 43, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Until 1964."}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 44, "text": "Well, there's more to talk about, but we need to take a short break right now. So let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Scott Eyman, and he's the author of the new book \"Charlie Chaplin Vs. America: When Art, Sex, And Politics Collided.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR. (SOUNDBTIE OF MARTA AZNAVOORIAN AND PHILIPPE QUINT'S \"WEEPING WILLOWS\")", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it was 12 years was the - Chaplin films didn't play in America until 1964. And then when they did, it was because he had written his memoir and it was coming out in about a year. And they decided t"}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 45, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Scott Eyman about his new book \"Charlie Chaplin Vs. America: When Art, Sex, And Politics Collided.\" So after Chaplin decides not to challenge the ban against him returning to the U.S., he moves to Switzerland. He has a really good home life with his wife Oona and their many children. But you say it ruined him as an artist. How?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it was 12 years was the - Chaplin films didn't play in America until 1964. And then when they did, it was because he had written his memoir and it was coming out in about a year. And they decided t"}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 46, "text": "Chaplin grew up very poor. His father was an alcoholic. His mother had mental health problems and was institutionalized. He lived in a rooming house with his father and his father's mistress. And then his father died young, and Chaplin was sent to a workhouse as an indigent child. Just briefly describe what a workhouse was.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The two films he made after he moved to Switzerland are grossly inferior to the films he'd made amongst all the tumult and controversy in Hollywood in the '30s, '40s and even until \"Limelight\" in 1952"}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 47, "text": "After the Immigration and Naturalization Service banned Charlie Chaplin from returning to the U.S., and he refused to fight it because he felt he'd been so mistreated in the U.S. and so smeared, he never returned to the U.S., right? That was it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A workhouse was basically a state-run orphanage for children whose parents were either dead or rendered insane or institutionalized themselves or in jail, and they had no other adult supervision. So t"}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 48, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He came back to get his honorary Oscar in 1972..."}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 49, "text": "Who?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...On his terms. He - they were - they - his films were being reissued all over America, all over the world. He signed a deal for his film library, and his films were being reissued, and they gave him"}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 50, "text": "What did Charlie Chaplin say in his acceptance speech?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sam Goldwyn, Cary Grant and William Wyler. Everybody else shut up."}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 51, "text": "Scott Eyman, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was overwhelmed. It was a 12-minute ovation. It was the longest ovation in the history of the Oscars. Old age is beginning to have its way with him when you look at it on YouTube. He's older, he's "}
{"id": "1208190881", "date": "2023-10-24", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 52, "text": "Scott Eyman's new book is called \"Charlie Chaplin Vs. America: When Art, Sex, And Politics Collided.\" After we take a short break, Ken Tucker will review The Rolling Stones' first collection of new songs in 18 years. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. It's been a lot of fun."}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The late John le Carre wrote spy novels that were praised for transcending genre fiction and simply being great literature. Many of his books have been adapted into films or TV series, including \"The Spy Who Came In From The Cold,\" \"Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy,\" \"The Little Drummer Girl,\" \"The Constant Gardener\" and \"The Night Manager.\" Le Carre died in 2020 at the age of 89, but documentary filmmaker Errol Morris has a new film that features interviews with the writer. It's called \"The Pigeon Tunnel,\" which is also the title of le Carre's 2016 memoir. The film is currently in theaters and can be streamed on Apple TV+. In his New York Times obituary, Sarah Lyall wrote that le Carre, quote, \"portrayed British intelligence operations as cesspools of ambiguity in which right and wrong are too close to call, and in which it is rarely obvious whether the ends - even if the ends are clear - justify the means. Le Carre's spies are lonely, disillusioned men whose work is driven by budget troubles, bureaucratic power plays and the opaque machinations of politicians - men who are as likely to be betrayed by colleagues and lovers as by the enemy,\" unquote. John le Carre was his pen name. He was born David John Moore Cornwell. Before writing espionage novels, le Carre was a spy. He worked for Britain's domestic intelligence service, MI5, and its foreign intelligence service, MI6. He was still working for MI6 when his third book, the Cold War novel \"The Spy Who Came In From The Cold,\" became an international bestseller. One of the characters in that novel, George Smiley, became the main character in several of le Carre's later books. We're going to listen back to two interviews I recorded with le Carre. The first we'll hear was recorded in 1989 after the publication of his novel \"The Russia House.\" It was written during the waning days of the Cold War. The Soviet Union collapsed in 1991, two years after the novel's publication.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 1, "text": "You started writing books and, well, publishing - getting your books published in the early 1960s, and that coincided with the time of the popularity of Ian Fleming's James Bond books. And I was wondering if you'd read those books and if they helped you decide what you did or didn't...", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 2, "text": "...Want to do in your own fiction.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 3, "text": "And you wanted to depict the spy more as a working man, in a way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I owe a great deal to Fleming for one reason only - that Fleming produced - by writing that type of romanticized, heroic, amoral novel, he produced what you might call a counter-market, which I w"}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 4, "text": "How were they like flies in aspic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I knew that world, and I knew the way it had worked. And I knew that what I had seen was ordinary men and women locked in an impossible conflict. They were like flies in aspic."}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 5, "text": "Were you recruited to work as a spy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, because we were given these postures - these ideological postures that were irreconcilable and we worked within them, and we tried to tease the other side. I mean, in the high day of the Cold Wa"}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 6, "text": "Well, I never know whether you can kind of volunteer and then they check you out or whether they seek you out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you can't do it independently."}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 7, "text": "So you were sort out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think there are dozens of ways in which organizations do it. They have networks of talent spotters through the universities and the professional organizations. I think most recruiting organiza"}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 8, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's not what I said. I..."}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 9, "text": "Did your feelings for the job change as the Cold War progressed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I don't want to answer that question."}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 10, "text": "Did you ever have an assignment that you didn't want to take on because you thought that - because you opposed its means?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. A kind of, as the French say, a (speaking French) set in, a weariness of the spirit which I tried to reflect in such characters as George Smiley. I also began to think it was damn silly that we w"}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 11, "text": "When you started writing fiction, whose clearance or permission did you have to get, especially since it was spy fiction?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, if I did, I certainly didn't speak up. I mean, you either accept the package or you don't. You can't pick on this one and say I won't do it."}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 12, "text": "Were they afraid that the kinds of ambiguities that you were raising would be dispiriting to your readers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, if I had been even an orthodox foreign servant, I would have had to obtain clearance from my employing department, even if I had written a book on lepidoptera. As it was, I submitted my novels, "}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 13, "text": "Oh, I like that word", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I think so. I think - that came back to me at least from one or two espiocrats in the American..."}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I think so. I think - that came back to me at least from one or two espiocrats in the American..."}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 15, "text": "Was it obligatory for you to get a pen name?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do, too. Thank you. It's entered my new book. In the American structure that I was undermining the very spirit which should fire young recruits to the agency or to the intelligence community. I was "}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 16, "text": "Can I suggest a reason, though? This probably isn't it...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. It was. They said, choose another name. And I went to Victor Gollancz, who was my publisher in London, and said, I've got to choose a pseudonym. And he said, well, my boy, I give you some good ad"}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 17, "text": "...At all. But if you were a Frenchman, then the English readers would say, well, this is an outsider anyways. How intimately could he really know our system? Maybe it's better and things are more black and white than he's making it seem.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Please do."}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 18, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ah, those wily French."}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 20, "text": "Mole is a word that you're credited with having brought into the English vocabulary. I think you borrowed it from the Soviets, really. What was the origin of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well it's quite - yes, it's a thought. It means a lot of things, I believe. It means square. A bal carre is a dance where people wear masks, I think, and change partners. And then in roulette, a numbe"}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 21, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I thought I borrowed it from the Soviets, but the editors of the Oxford English Dictionary can't find any Soviet reference to mole."}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 22, "text": "Coming in from the cold is another expression that you coined.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the origin was in the notion of a mole, somebody who burrows deep into the fabric of our society, is a little-observed, little-noticed thing, creature, and then from inside causes its downfall. "}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 23, "text": "And what was behind that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yes, I suppose so, or at least I applied it to espionage. I suppose I was the first person to do that."}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 24, "text": "But, I mean, how did you come up with the expression?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, behind it was the character of Alec Leamas in \"The Spy Who Came In From The Cold,\" who was an old professional agent, an aging professional agent who was suffering from what you might call a kin"}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well, how does a writer have to deceive?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's a meteorological perception. It's cold out there and it's warmer indoors. And the chill comes from a lack of human contact or lack of human affection, of having to keep what Graham Greene c"}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 26, "text": "And how does a spy have to be an entertainer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that that chip of ice to which Graham Greene refers is really some kind of recording instrument. L. P. Hartley said, don't leave me in your drawing room, I'm sure to read your letters. I"}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 27, "text": "And knowing how to flatter people.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Most of them have to have entertainment value, particularly if they are going to recruit people. If I - alas, we've never met. But I'm sure you're beautiful and young and elegant. And if I were determ"}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 28, "text": "We're listening to my 1989 interview with John le Carre. He's the subject of a new Errol Morris documentary called \"The Pigeon Tunnel.\" It's now in theaters and streaming on Apple TV+. I interviewed Le Carre again in 2017. We'll hear that interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And knowing how to flatter people, and more particularly, knowing how to make people dependent on you because once I had obtained you, you would then have to continue working for me. And you would hav"}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're listening back to interviews with novelist John le Carre, who's the subject of a new documentary film by Errol Morris called \"The Pigeon Tunnel.\" The film features the final interviews with Le Carre, who died in 2020 at the age of 89. Before he wrote about spies, Le Carre worked as a spy for Britain's domestic and foreign intelligence agencies. His most famous character, George Smiley, appeared in several of his novels. I interviewed Le Carre for a second time in 2017, after the publication of his novel \"A Legacy Of Spies.\" The main character, Peter Guillam, had been a protege of Smiley's. In \"A Legacy Of Spies,\" Guillam is retired, but is forced to re-examine actions he took when he was a spy during the Cold War, actions that may have cost the lives of two people who were close to him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And knowing how to flatter people, and more particularly, knowing how to make people dependent on you because once I had obtained you, you would then have to continue working for me. And you would hav"}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 30, "text": "Let's begin with a reading from your new novel, \"A Legacy Of Spies.\" Would you read the first page for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And knowing how to flatter people, and more particularly, knowing how to make people dependent on you because once I had obtained you, you would then have to continue working for me. And you would hav"}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 31, "text": "John le Carre, why did you write about a spy forced to face his responsibility for two deaths decades ago? You know, in the reading that you did, your character refers to, you know, being expected - or having to suppress human feelings to be a spy. And he later, you know, thinks that George Smiley, your most famous character who recruited your narrator, suppressed the humanity in him. Do you feel like when you were working for British intelligence that you had to suppress human feelings or suppress your humanity?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. (Reading) What follows is a truthful account - as best I am able to provide it - of my role in the British deception operation - codenamed Windfall - that was mounted against the East German int"}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 32, "text": "But getting back to what I asked, did you feel like you had to suppress your humanity to be a good spy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, of course, in any corporate or institutional situation, people who are employed by those corporations have to repress their feelings in one way or another. We during the Cold War were aware of s"}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 33, "text": "There's another paragraph I'd like you to read from your new novel. It's on page 19, and it's about interrogation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yes, I did. In the greater cause, I felt I had to suppress my humanity. I - where I was asking people to do things, I tried to persuade them that they were doing it for the greater good, and I w"}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 34, "text": "Did you have to do interrogations when you were in intelligence?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) In any interrogation, denial is the tipping point. Never mind the courtesies that went before. From the moment of denial, things are never going to be the same. At the secret policeman level"}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 35, "text": "And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I did a lot of interrogations in my first spell in British security and MI5."}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 36, "text": "We're listening back to the interview I recorded with John le Carre in 2017. A documentary about him by Errol Morris called \"The Pigeon Tunnel\" is now in select theaters and is streaming on Apple TV+. We'll hear more of the interview after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were benign interrogations, as it were. These were not what we would call seriously hostile interviewers, except in a few rare cases. But everything I learned about interrogation then tells me th"}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 37, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my 2017 interview with John Le Carre, the spy novelist and former British spy. His books include \"The Spy Who Came In From The Cold,\" \"Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy,\" \"The Little Drummer Girl,\" and \"A Constant Gardener.\" Before he became famous for his espionage novels, he worked as a spy for Britain's domestic intelligence service, MI5, and its foreign intelligence service, MI6. Le Carre died in 2020 at the age of 89. He's the subject of a new documentary by Errol Morris called \"The Pigeon Tunnel,\" which is also the title of Le Carre's 2016 memoir. In his memoir, he wrote about his chaotic upbringing and described his father as a pathological liar. So you suggest that in terms of your earlier career as a spy in England, that since your father was a liar, that you knew how to lie and invent personalities, that that came naturally to you. You say your father was a con man, an occasional fantasist, an occasional jailbird, a crisis addict, a performance addict, a delusional enchanter who wrecked a lot of people's lives. And you say he had absolutely no relationship to the truth. So do you feel like you picked up certain skills, so to speak, from being his son?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were benign interrogations, as it were. These were not what we would call seriously hostile interviewers, except in a few rare cases. But everything I learned about interrogation then tells me th"}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 38, "text": "Are you saying that when you were young and growing up as, you know, a person of more means than your family actually had, that you felt fraudulent?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", I was also very much concerned to survive. It's about survival. You become watchful. You know, I'd spend a lot of time, if he left the house, going through his pockets and things, trying to find out"}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 39, "text": "Your father made you do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm quite certain we - I felt that I belonged to a fraudulent outfit because often my job was to humor creditors, tell them the money was in the post, as it were, whether they were tradesmen or whethe"}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 40, "text": "So he kind of made you his partner in crime.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I suppose you could say he made me do it. I obliged him, you know. You only have one person to love if you have one parent."}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 41, "text": "Can you describe more what that revolt against your father was like, what shape it took?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I was adolescent, yes, he did. Yes. And then I revolted against that, and I guess that's how the schism between us began, and it continued thereafter. I think from my age - sort of 18, 19 by then"}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 42, "text": "Oh, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was asking him for certain truths, why things had happened in our lives. Why do we have to move houses suddenly, why have we sold the house, why have the bailiffs removed my possessions? And then w"}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 43, "text": "So you protected yourself against him. When you started to have bestsellers and he wanted your money, you succeeded in protecting yourself.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And we'd never had any money in the family. And I had been - until all that happened, I'd been, first of all, a quite impoverished married schoolmaster and then, finally, in government service, slight"}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 44, "text": "Did you inherit his debts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "one of the great mysteries of life. And he'd been for many of his years undischarged, bankrupt. But just in this last surge of seeming affluence, he'd put the whole card house together again. And in t"}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 45, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded with John le Carre in 2017. A new documentary about him by Errol Morris called \"The Pigeon Tunnel\" is in theaters and streaming on Apple TV+. We'll hear more of my interview with le Carre after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not in law. No, I didn't. I inherited them morally, I suppose."}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 46, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded in 2017 with John le Carre, who's now the subject of a new Errol Morris documentary called \"The Pigeon Tunnel.\" Le Carre's novels include \"The Spy Who Came In From The Cold\" and \"Tinker Tailor Soldier Spy.\" When we left off, we were talking about how his father was a swindler. After he died, le Carre discovered his father owned houses all over England, even though he was bankrupt. I know at some point in your life - and I don't know if this was before or after your father died - you hired detectives to try to find out, who was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not in law. No, I didn't. I inherited them morally, I suppose."}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 47, "text": "...Your father, really? What had he actually done? So how old - was your father still alive when you did that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 48, "text": "Whoa.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no. That was before I wrote a novel about him called \"A Perfect Spy.\" And I hired these two detectives because I didn't trust my own memory. And least of all did I trust the people around him "}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 49, "text": "Do you think any of that is true?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so..."}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 50, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Enormously rich isn't."}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 51, "text": "Why is that grounds for a lawsuit, failing to mention him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Arms dealer, yes. I found out only recently that he'd traded in illegal arms in Indonesia and indeed in the Indian subcontinent, again without much success. But he'd been in the illegal arms industry."}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 52, "text": "How were you able to develop a moral compass with a father who had none?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You don't need any excuse. I offended his narcissism."}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 53, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's kind of you to suggest that I developed one."}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 54, "text": "Do you look back on your life and think, I've had an extraordinarily interesting life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's taken a long time. And I suppose I've been a lot of people in my 85 years, not all of them very nice people. But I think I got better, actually. And that's about all there is to it. I mean, you z"}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 55, "text": "I like the way you say in retrospect, I've had a very interesting life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do, sometimes. I'm scared of being a bore about it, but it does seem to be a wonderful life in retrospect, or an extraordinarily varied one. And that prompted me now to - particularly with this nove"}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 56, "text": "And maybe at the time, as you were living through various things that seemed not interesting, per se?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do, sometimes. I'm scared of being a bore about it, but it does seem to be a wonderful life in retrospect, or an extraordinarily varied one. And that prompted me now to - particularly with this nove"}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 57, "text": "That's crazy", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I mean, I've had, really, a very interesting life. And I mean, really, the strangest thing is, in some ways, has been the cross-border relationship I've had with the former Soviet Union. The most "}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 58, "text": ". Oh. So what did it say to you that the former head of the KGB identified with your character, George Smiley?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I mean, I've had, really, a very interesting life. And I mean, really, the strangest thing is, in some ways, has been the cross-border relationship I've had with the former Soviet Union. The most "}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 59, "text": "Oh, the KGB?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's very hard to say this, but there were elements of the KGB - and there still are, I suppose, at the FSB, but less so. Certainly in Communist times, there were bits of the KGB that were very,"}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 60, "text": "God, that was not your intention", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's - the KGB, yes."}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 61, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's - the KGB, yes."}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 62, "text": "John le Carre, David Cornwell, it's been great to talk with you. Thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it was not my intention at all. But they saw some kind of equivalence. You know, in the end - and it applies to doctors, scientists, and it applies to spies - people who are using the same techniq"}
{"id": "1209012058", "date": "2023-10-27", "guest": "John Le Carre", "title": "Novelist John Le Carr\u00e9 reflects on his own 'Legacy' of spying", "question_index": 63, "text": "My interview with John le Carre was recorded in 2017. He died in 2020 at the age of 89. A new documentary by Errol Morris featuring interviews with le Carre called \"The Pigeon Tunnel,\" is in select theaters and is streaming on Apple TV+. Coming up, our film critic Justin Chang will review \"The Holdovers,\" the new Alexander Payne film starring Paul Giamatti as a surly boarding school teacher looking after the holdovers - the students who have nowhere to go during Christmas break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much, Terry. Thank you."}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, I'm Terry Gross. As one of the two Republicans who served on the House select committee that investigated the January 6 attack on the Capitol, my guest, Adam Kinzinger, became one of the most famous members of the House of Representatives and one of the most condemned by members of his own party. He's written a new memoir called \"Renegade\" that includes what he describes as the inside story of how his party and his faith have been hijacked by extremists who represent a real danger to our democracy. He writes that he feels some responsibility for January 6, if only because he was a participant in and witness to the GOP's gradual descent into a dysfunctional and destructive force in our politics. Kinzinger represented Illinois's 11th and then 16th congressional districts from 2011 until the first few days of 2023. In 2021, Kinzinger decided not to run again and founded Country First, a nonprofit, bipartisan organization that seeks funding and support from moderates from the Democratic and Republican parties, as well as independents. Its mission statement includes defeating threats to our democracy. Kinzinger served in the Air Force flying missions in Iraq, Afghanistan, South America and Guam. He's now a lieutenant colonel in the Air National Guard and a senior political commentator for CNN. We recorded our interview yesterday. Adam Kinzinger, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 1, "text": "It's good to have you. With the chaos surrounding the election of the new House speaker, do you wish you were still in the House or are you happy to be gone?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hey, thanks. It's good to be here."}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 2, "text": "So the new speaker, Mike Johnson, played an important role in the attempt to overturn the 2020 election. He created some of the legal arguments used by Republicans for justifying not certifying the election. He claimed the election was rigged, that software was rigged by Dominion Voting Systems and by Hugo Chavez's Venezuela. What is it like for you, after serving on the January 6 committee, to see an ardent election denier be House speaker?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would say 0.00% of me wishes I was still in the House. I mean, I guess maybe that's not accurate. There's - the one thing I wish I could be there for right now is to kind of put a very hard line dow"}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 3, "text": "Did you have a lot of interaction with him when you were in the house?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's confusing. It's a little disheartening, obviously. I mean, when I went into the - you know, let's take the day after January 6, basically. I guess if I had to put all my money on what would happe"}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 4, "text": "Well, that leads to a larger question, which is, for all of the members of the House who are supporting Trump, who voted to overturn the election, those people who support Trump and who supported overturning the election, do you think that they really believe that the election was rigged, or do you think they have other motives?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did have some. And, you know, he was kind of a backbencher. And but my - the most crystal clear memory - and I wish people would have remembered this before they kind of rushed into, you know, elect"}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 5, "text": "Let's talk about January 6. You expected violence.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it's completely other motives. So in the last Congress before this one, I would say, man, if there was anybody that believed the election was truly stolen, it was - you could probably count them o"}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 6, "text": "And you brought your gun. And I'll mention again, you served in the military. Why did you think you would need your gun on January 6?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's really simple. So two things - No. 1, I read Twitter."}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 8, "text": "Did your research", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And Twitter told me..."}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And Twitter told me..."}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 10, "text": "You were in your office. How close did the mob come to your office? How close did you come to thinking you would have to use it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did my research, right? Twitter told me there were a lot of people that wanted to kill me, that said, you know, we're coming after you. Twitter told me that there were people that were going there b"}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 11, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Adam Kinzinger, former Republican congressman. His new memoir is called \"Renegade.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I had gone on the floor for the start of the proceedings. I left as they started. I'm kind of seeing some stuff on Twitter that was happening with the barricades being breached. So I went back to m"}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with former Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger, one of two Republicans who served on the House committee investigating the January 6 attack on the Capitol. His new memoir is called \"Renegade: Defending Democracy And Liberty In Our Divided Country.\" You write that you were reluctant to serve on the January 6 committee, but you agreed to. Why were you reluctant?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I had gone on the floor for the start of the proceedings. I left as they started. I'm kind of seeing some stuff on Twitter that was happening with the barricades being breached. So I went back to m"}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 13, "text": "You said you knew it would be life-changing if you served on the committee. How has it been life-changing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know if reluctant's the best word. I guess it is. It's - I didn't want to do it because I knew how life-changing it would be, and not in a good way. I knew that, you know, I just had a brand-n"}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 14, "text": "Wait, wait, wait, she said you served in Satan's army when you joined the committee.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's been life-changing in a number of ways. So, you know, my father's cousins, I guess, basically sent me a letter disowning me at one point, which was..."}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 15, "text": "I don't want to ask you anything that further threatens your security, so if this question does, let me know. But you got a lot of threats after joining the committee. You got voicemails saying things like, I hope you die quickly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep. That's it. That's it. I was a member of the devil's army. But it said things like, you serve in the devil's army, you've lost the trust of great men like Mark Levin and Sean Hannity. And it goes "}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 16, "text": "Threatening your wife and child, saying, we know where your family is. Did those threats eventually die down with time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 17, "text": "Did you ever confront any people in your party who supported Trump and wanted to overturn the election and also helped spread conspiracy theories, the kinds of things that would lead to threats against people like you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, they do die down. And I think partially because, you know, the - I mean, half of those threats that come in are, you know, guys sitting around drunk at night that get angry. And I think, you kno"}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 18, "text": "Did you ever confront them and say, look at the threats against my child, my 6-month-old child? Do you feel responsible for this? Do you feel like it's your responsibility to tone down the inflammatory language and encourage others to do the same?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 19, "text": "Could you compare for us what some of your fellow Republicans in the House said to you in private versus...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a great question because, yes, I did. And, you know, you'd get a couple of responses. You know, the people that - I don't know. I call them the true believers. They're not - they don't really bel"}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 20, "text": "...What they said in public?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 21, "text": "Was there a particular revelation that you found most remarkable from the January 6 committee investigation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, look. It's - you could take anybody, and what they would say to me in private - and I'm trying to think of a specific name, and I'm not afraid to say names. I just don't want to put the "}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 22, "text": "Well, there's a lot more I want to talk with you about, but we have to take another break here. So let me reintroduce you. My guest is former Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger, who was one of two Republican congressmen to serve on the House select committee investigating the January 6 attack on the Capitol. His new memoir is called \"Renegade.\" We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, there were so many of them. And this is why I'm looking forward to when the Department of Justice brings out its, you know, findings - because they were able, I believe, to pick up a lot of wh"}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Adam Kinzinger. He was one of the two Republicans, along with Liz Cheney, who served on the House select committee investigating the January 6 attack on the Capitol. It made him an outcast in his own party. He served in the House from 2011 until the first days of 2023. It was in 2021 that he decided not to run again. How did serving on the committee change your relationship with Democratic members of the committee and of the larger Democrat membership of the House? And I'm wondering if they saw you differently, if you saw them differently. This was probably the most intense exercise in bipartisanship in your career.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, there were so many of them. And this is why I'm looking forward to when the Department of Justice brings out its, you know, findings - because they were able, I believe, to pick up a lot of wh"}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 24, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It certainly changed a lot. I'd always gotten along with Democrats well. I was never one of these that took politics personally or made it personal. But, you know, just naturally, you're around "}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 25, "text": "Was that the moment you decided not to run again, when you were ending the investigation and walking out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it did, and everybody played along, and they would call him Adam Senior. So you know, we had that kind of rapport. And I'll tell you, the thing that stands out to me is just, like - I never expect"}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 26, "text": "Yeah, you were redistricted.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it was before that. It was basically when I realized that I was going to be on the committee and that the committee was going to, you know, ruffle some feathers. You know, look, I don't know if I'"}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 27, "text": "And you might not have won anyways even if wasn't for January 6.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right, yeah."}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 28, "text": "Right. I want to ask you about special counsel Jack Smith's investigation into January 6 and Donald Trump. He was appointed by Attorney General Merrick Garland. The grand jury in the investigation indicted Trump for conspiring to defraud the U.S., conspiring to disenfranchise voters, and conspiring and attempting to obstruct an official proceeding certifying the election. There were complaints during the January 6 House committee investigation that the Justice Department wasn't doing enough or going fast enough in their investigation, and that the House committee shouldn't have been outpacing the Justice Department, which was what some members of the House committee thought was happening. What do you think now about the Justice Department investigation? What do you think now about special counsel Jack Smith's investigation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's correct, yeah. It was twice in a row. I mean, I was redistricted immediately after my initial election into a bad district that I won, and then they did it to me again. So you know, sometimes y"}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 29, "text": "What's one or two things you've learned from the Georgia investigation or Jack Smith's investigation that you didn't already know from the January 6 committee?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, look, I think the special counsel is doing a good job. I think, you know, the attorney general was smart to put him in there, to have - you know, whether anybody believes it or not, but to have "}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 30, "text": "You served on the January 6 committee in the House. You voted for the second impeachment, but you voted against the first impeachment of Donald Trump. Why did you vote against impeaching Trump the first time around?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think at this point, there's not a lot from that that at least has been leaked out or anything that I didn't know. I would say it's - I think it's big news that apparently Mark Meadows is coop"}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 31, "text": "Donald Trump is still leading in polls in terms of the primary. And what do you think about when you think about the possibility of Donald Trump not only becoming the Republican candidate again, but possibly winning and becoming president again?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, and it's something I talk about in the book because I think it's important - if you're going to write a memoir or, in my case, what I'd consider a what happened to the Republican Party, it is es"}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 32, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is former Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger. His new memoir is called \"Renegade.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Look, it's something that I think we have to, as a country, take very seriously. I think it's a greater than 50% chance he's the Republican nominee. You know, the only thing is, you know, Nikki Haley "}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 33, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with former Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger, one of two Republicans who served on the House committee investigating the January 6 attack on the Capitol. His new memoir is called \"Renegade: Defending Democracy And Liberty In Our Divided Country.\" One of your observations in your book is that the tactics Republicans used for sowing and exploiting fears and treating opponents as enemies, not as rivals, are now tactics Republicans are using against one another. Can you give us an example of what you mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Look, it's something that I think we have to, as a country, take very seriously. I think it's a greater than 50% chance he's the Republican nominee. You know, the only thing is, you know, Nikki Haley "}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 34, "text": "How often did you have direct dealings with Donald Trump when you were serving in the House and he was president?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, just look at the speaker race. I mean, you know, the interesting thing is the dynamics that came out of that, you know, with folks that were kind of standing up against Jim Jordan and then the M"}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 35, "text": "How good you were?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, for a member of Congress, quite a bit. I'd been to the Oval Office a number of times. One of the very first times was related to - well, there was China's ZTE, which was a telecom issue wher"}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 36, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is former Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger. His new memoir is called \"Renegade.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And I realized what he's doing. Like, he would always say, Adam, you're so good on TV. And then he'd tell everybody in the room how good I was on TV. And then about 50% of his attention, even if "}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 37, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with former Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger, one of two Republicans who served on the House committee investigating the January 6 attack on the Capitol. His new memoir is called \"Renegade: Defending Democracy And Liberty In Our Divided Country.\" You write that you long considered yourself to be a religiously inspired conservative. Would you describe the church that you grew up in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And I realized what he's doing. Like, he would always say, Adam, you're so good on TV. And then he'd tell everybody in the room how good I was on TV. And then about 50% of his attention, even if "}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 38, "text": "The church that you belonged to when you were young, that your family belonged to, also preached that wives should be submissive to husbands. Women shouldn't work. Your mother did work.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. So I grew up Independent Fundamental Baptist, and I left that. And, really, my family left that probably when I was in college. It is still one of the churches that is the no drinking, no da"}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 39, "text": "She was a third grade teacher. What was it like for you to - assuming that you did evolve to the point where you think that women were equals.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 40, "text": "What was it like for you to get to that point?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 41, "text": "How has your faith affected your votes on abortion?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't think - you know, and I do mention this in the book. While we went to the church, we didn't prescribe to some of that stuff. Like, my dad - you know, we never had a problem with my mom w"}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 42, "text": "And what about LGBTQ rights?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it's, I think, part of it. Look. I'm pro-life. I would consider myself in the pro-life cause as more of a moderate pro-lifer. You know, I recognize that there are important exceptions to it. I"}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 43, "text": "Do you still consider yourself a Republican?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think maybe at the beginning, but I am - I'm pretty - I would say pretty moderate to moderate left on those issues. And I think faith in that role kind of came to understand that, look. All of us ha"}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 44, "text": "Well, that party doesn't really - the party you want to be part of doesn't really exist anymore.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a great question. And I will answer it this way. Yes because I refuse to let somebody like Donald Trump take that title away from me. But I will say that I feel like a very homeless person poli"}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 45, "text": "Adam Kinzinger, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not yet. I mean, it doesn't exist anymore. And, you know, I'll continue to fight to try to bring something like that back. But I'm not wed to the name Republican. I don't really particularly care for "}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 46, "text": "Adam Kinzinger's new book is called \"Renegade.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll hear the interview I just recorded with David Byrne. It was so much fun hearing him talk about his life before, during and after Talking Heads. Now I know why I never understood the lyrics to \"Burning Down The House.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This was great. Thank you. Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 47, "text": "The restored and remastered version of the 1984 Talking Heads concert film, \"Stop Making Sense,\" is playing in theaters. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thought, let me see if I can make a song that is basically a lot of non-sequiturs that have some kind of emotional impact."}
{"id": "1209660418", "date": "2023-10-31", "guest": "Adam Kinzinger", "title": "Rep. Adam Kinzinger on investigating Jan. 6 and being a 'Renegade' in the GOP", "question_index": 48, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Ann Marie Baldonado, Therese Madden, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Watch out. You might get what you're after. Cool, baby. Strange, but not a stranger. I'm an ordinary guy. Burning down the house. Hold tight. Wait till the party's over. Hold tight. We're in"}
{"id": "1210076717", "date": "2023-11-02", "guest": "Mark Mazzetti", "title": "'Everybody got it wrong': How did Israel fail to detect Hamas' planned invasion?", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, I'm Terry Gross. There are so many questions surrounding Israel's failure to detect that Hamas was planning a devastating attack on Israel. Why had Israeli intelligence and military leaders become relatively dismissive of the threat posed by Hamas, focusing instead on Hezbollah? When security officials did try to warn Prime Minister Netanyahu that Israel's enemies might be planning an attack, why did Netanyahu ignore the warnings? After Hamas launched the attack, why did it take so long for Israeli soldiers to arrive where Israelis were being slaughtered? My guest, Mark Mazzetti, co-wrote with Ronen Bergman and Maria Abi-Habib a long article investigating those questions. He's a New York Times investigative reporter based in Washington focusing on national security. He's also been reporting on the negotiations between Israel, Saudi Arabia and the U.S. toward a deal in which the Saudis would recognize Israel in return for the U.S. selling more arms to the Saudis and signing a mutual defense agreement with the U.S. The war has put those negotiations on hold. Mazzetti was part of a team that won a Pulitzer Prize in 2018 for reporting on Donald Trump's advisers and their connections to Russia. Mazzetti shared a Pulitzer Prize in 2009 for reporting on the intensifying violence in Pakistan and Afghanistan, and Washington's response. Mark Mazzetti, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Thank you for returning.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1210076717", "date": "2023-11-02", "guest": "Mark Mazzetti", "title": "'Everybody got it wrong': How did Israel fail to detect Hamas' planned invasion?", "question_index": 1, "text": "So Israel was unprepared for Hamas' attack, but Netanyahu was warned by military and intelligence leaders that an attack could be in the works. Or maybe I should say his government was warned. What were the warnings?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me back."}
{"id": "1210076717", "date": "2023-11-02", "guest": "Mark Mazzetti", "title": "'Everybody got it wrong': How did Israel fail to detect Hamas' planned invasion?", "question_index": 2, "text": "Why did Netanyahu decline to meet with intelligence and military higher-ups who wanted to warn him about the possibility of an attack?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the story of all the missed signals and unheeded warnings before October 7 is sort of a story of failure over a number of years, not just weeks and months. Everybody got it wrong. However, in the m"}
{"id": "1210076717", "date": "2023-11-02", "guest": "Mark Mazzetti", "title": "'Everybody got it wrong': How did Israel fail to detect Hamas' planned invasion?", "question_index": 3, "text": "So the warnings that the Israeli government was getting from military and intelligence officials was about Hezbollah and not Hamas. Hamas is the militia and now government that controls Gaza. Hezbollah is the Iranian-backed militia group based in Lebanon. And there's been a lot of back and forth attacks along the border between Lebanon and Israel over the years. So why were the warnings more about Hezbollah than Hamas, when it was really Hamas that carried out the major attack?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think he had the sense that there was not a specific threat or specific intelligence about an attack that they wanted to give him, that they were trying to head off. It was more in the line of"}
{"id": "1210076717", "date": "2023-11-02", "guest": "Mark Mazzetti", "title": "'Everybody got it wrong': How did Israel fail to detect Hamas' planned invasion?", "question_index": 4, "text": "And you say even the U.S. stopped getting intelligence on Hamas.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For many years now, pretty much the entirety of Israel's security state and its political leadership has focused on Iran as being the principal threat to Israel. Netanyahu has, you know - most of his "}
{"id": "1210076717", "date": "2023-11-02", "guest": "Mark Mazzetti", "title": "'Everybody got it wrong': How did Israel fail to detect Hamas' planned invasion?", "question_index": 5, "text": "Netanyahu's 2008 campaign slogan was strong against Hamas. And in a campaign video he pledged, we will not stop the Israeli Defense Forces, we will finish the job. We will topple the terror regime of Hamas. But you write that over Netanyahu came to see Hamas as a way to balance power against the Palestinian Authority, which governs the West Bank. And the Palestinian Authority has sought a peace agreement with Israel in return for a Palestinian state. So over time, Netanyahu started to, in his own way, support Hamas - like, help Hamas. Can you explain how he did that - like, what he gave Hamas and why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. The American intelligence agencies some years ago basically stopped treating Hamas as a concern. They saw Hamas as a regional issue. They saw Hamas as Israel's issue that didn't pose real threat"}
{"id": "1210076717", "date": "2023-11-02", "guest": "Mark Mazzetti", "title": "'Everybody got it wrong': How did Israel fail to detect Hamas' planned invasion?", "question_index": 6, "text": "Right. So he could say there's two different groups here. There's Hamas and the Palestinian Authority. They're not even on the same page. And Hamas wants to destroy Israel, whereas the Palestinian Authority just wants a Palestinian state. So, you know, how can I negotiate with two groups that have separate agendas? Was that what he was trying to say?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. This was, in essence, a kind of divide-and-conquer strategy for Netanyahu. But it was a sort of cynical strategy by Netanyahu that was very controversial in the past, and some past ministers of "}
{"id": "1210076717", "date": "2023-11-02", "guest": "Mark Mazzetti", "title": "'Everybody got it wrong': How did Israel fail to detect Hamas' planned invasion?", "question_index": 7, "text": "Do you think that that policy that Netanyahu had helped Hamas amass enough arms and shroud everything in secrecy to stage the attack that they staged last month?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And, you know, recall, the Palestinian Authority is very weak. They have weak leadership. And so the - a strategy to prop up Hamas, in a way - for Netanyahu was a way to weaken all of his, you kn"}
{"id": "1210076717", "date": "2023-11-02", "guest": "Mark Mazzetti", "title": "'Everybody got it wrong': How did Israel fail to detect Hamas' planned invasion?", "question_index": 8, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Pulitzer Prize-winning reporter Mark Mazzetti, a Washington-based investigative correspondent for The New York Times focusing on national security. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's unclear now just how much the Netanyahu policy ended up having a direct role in the October 7 attacks. And I think it's something that may - over time, we'll know more. But I also think t"}
{"id": "1210076717", "date": "2023-11-02", "guest": "Mark Mazzetti", "title": "'Everybody got it wrong': How did Israel fail to detect Hamas' planned invasion?", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Mark Mazzetti, a Washington-based investigative correspondent focusing on national security for The New York Times. He co-wrote a long investigative piece about how Hamas managed to get past Israeli security and carry out its attack inside Israel. He's also been writing about the pact that was in the process of being negotiated between Saudi Arabia, Israel and the U.S. We'll talk about that a little bit later. There weren't a lot of Israeli soldiers at the Gaza border at the time of the attack. And the technology - the surveillance technology that Israel had there and the wall that it built on the border between Gaza and Israel didn't seem to - well, it definitely was not enough to secure Israel against attack. How did the Hamas fighters get around those securities - the technology, the wall?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's unclear now just how much the Netanyahu policy ended up having a direct role in the October 7 attacks. And I think it's something that may - over time, we'll know more. But I also think t"}
{"id": "1210076717", "date": "2023-11-02", "guest": "Mark Mazzetti", "title": "'Everybody got it wrong': How did Israel fail to detect Hamas' planned invasion?", "question_index": 10, "text": "So Israeli intelligence had seen Hamas doing military exercises in the middle of the night, just before the attack against Israel, so the military sent a small group of soldiers to the border. And then the attack happened. So can you talk about, like, that moment, that decision to, you know, just send in a small group of soldiers and what happened to those soldiers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're right that there was a sort of hubris among Israeli intelligence officials and military officials that technology would keep the country safe, at least specifically regarding Hamas. They had bu"}
{"id": "1210076717", "date": "2023-11-02", "guest": "Mark Mazzetti", "title": "'Everybody got it wrong': How did Israel fail to detect Hamas' planned invasion?", "question_index": 11, "text": "So the people who were hiding out in shelters or, you know, in rooms in their homes, the people who survived in the kibbutz, they've reported that they waited hours for help from the Israeli military. Why did it take so long? I mean, they were calling - you know, some of them were, like, on radio or TV reporting what was happening, and still they were just, like, waiting for help.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. So as we reported in our story, in the hours before the attack, the leadership of Shin Bet, which is the domestic security service of Israel which has the responsibility for Gaza, was watching a"}
{"id": "1210076717", "date": "2023-11-02", "guest": "Mark Mazzetti", "title": "'Everybody got it wrong': How did Israel fail to detect Hamas' planned invasion?", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Pulitzer Prize-winning reporter Mark Mazzetti, a Washington investigative correspondent for The New York Times focusing on national security. We'll be right back after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That is still such an important question that we only have partial answers for right now. I mean, it's clear, as we've reported, that it wasn't until the actual attack happened that the Israeli securi"}
{"id": "1210076717", "date": "2023-11-02", "guest": "Mark Mazzetti", "title": "'Everybody got it wrong': How did Israel fail to detect Hamas' planned invasion?", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Mark Mazzetti, a Washington-based investigative correspondent focusing on national security for The New York Times. He co-wrote a long investigative piece about how Hamas managed to get past Israeli security and carry out its attack inside Israel. He's also been writing about the pact that was being negotiated between Saudi Arabia, Israel and the U.S. If an agreement is reached eventually, it would likely lead to Saudi Arabia recognizing Israel and, in turn, getting things the Saudis want from the U.S., including purchasing more U.S. weapons, starting a nuclear power program and a mutual defense pact with the U.S. We'll talk about the Saudis a little bit later. Do you have any insights into why Hamas decided to plan such a massive and devastating attack inside Israel, knowing that the Israeli response would probably be a devastating, massive counterattack in which thousands of Gazans would be killed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That is still such an important question that we only have partial answers for right now. I mean, it's clear, as we've reported, that it wasn't until the actual attack happened that the Israeli securi"}
{"id": "1210076717", "date": "2023-11-02", "guest": "Mark Mazzetti", "title": "'Everybody got it wrong': How did Israel fail to detect Hamas' planned invasion?", "question_index": 14, "text": "There's some speculation that one of the reasons why Hamas planned this attack now is that the Saudis were trying to negotiate a deal with Israel and the U.S., which included the Saudis recognizing Israel and opening diplomatic relations. Why would Hamas see that as a real threat to Hamas?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, that's sort of the central question that I think everyone's asking. And nobody has, that I've heard, really good answers to it. It's a lot of speculation about why Hamas would do this and why H"}
{"id": "1210076717", "date": "2023-11-02", "guest": "Mark Mazzetti", "title": "'Everybody got it wrong': How did Israel fail to detect Hamas' planned invasion?", "question_index": 15, "text": "The way you describe it, it seems the Saudis were more interested in what they could get from the U.S. than they were interested in helping the Palestinians.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in that theory, that Hamas did this to sort of derail this diplomatic initiative, playing that out, it would be Hamas saw that, effectively, the Saudis were about to sell out the Palestinians, t"}
{"id": "1210076717", "date": "2023-11-02", "guest": "Mark Mazzetti", "title": "'Everybody got it wrong': How did Israel fail to detect Hamas' planned invasion?", "question_index": 16, "text": "Another thing that it seems the Saudis want from the U.S. is the ability to buy more U.S. weapons. So why would the U.S. agree to these things? I mean, Iran has a nuclear power program that the U.S., outside of the Trump administration, that the U.S. has been trying to monitor or stop. You know, Trump pulled out of the Iran agreement. But, you know, certainly Israel sees Iran's nuclear program as an existential threat. The Saudis have been rivals of Iran. So what's in it for the U.S. if the Saudis have - if they have a nuclear power program, what's to prevent them from creating nuclear weapons eventually? And also, if they have more U.S. weapons that they bought, what's to prevent them from using it in a war against the U.S.? 'Cause, you know, countries change sides. We've seen that happen. And if there's a mutual defense agreement, would the U.S. really want to get involved in a war that was more of a Saudi war? It just seems like vulnerabilities for the U.S.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That is, I think, largely correct. I think that while Prince Mohammed bin Salman of Saudi Arabia says publicly - and, I should say, privately to American officials - that any peace with Israel has to "}
{"id": "1210076717", "date": "2023-11-02", "guest": "Mark Mazzetti", "title": "'Everybody got it wrong': How did Israel fail to detect Hamas' planned invasion?", "question_index": 17, "text": "I think we need to take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Pulitzer Prize-winning reporter Mark Mazzetti, a Washington-based investigative correspondent for The New York Times. He focuses on national security. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think these are all questions that a lot of people were asking in the months before the October 7 attack, which is, what's in it for the U.S. if they do this pact with Saudi Arabia as a central part"}
{"id": "1210076717", "date": "2023-11-02", "guest": "Mark Mazzetti", "title": "'Everybody got it wrong': How did Israel fail to detect Hamas' planned invasion?", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Mark Mazzetti, a Washington-based investigative correspondent for The New York Times. He focuses on national security. He co-wrote a long investigative piece about how Hamas managed to get past Israeli security and carry out its attack inside Israel. He's also been writing about the pact that was being negotiated between Saudi Arabia, Israel and the U.S., which is now on hold because of the war. So Mohammed bin Salman, MBS, who's the authoritarian ruler of Iran - he's the crown prince and the de facto ruler. He's very authoritarian. It's his people who beheaded the Washington Post columnist Jamal Khashoggi. So this is who we're negotiating with. One of his goals now is to make Saudi Arabia less dependent on oil and make it an international business center. So is that part of the reason why he wants to negotiate a deal to help him toward that goal? And how would a deal help him toward that goal?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think these are all questions that a lot of people were asking in the months before the October 7 attack, which is, what's in it for the U.S. if they do this pact with Saudi Arabia as a central part"}
{"id": "1210076717", "date": "2023-11-02", "guest": "Mark Mazzetti", "title": "'Everybody got it wrong': How did Israel fail to detect Hamas' planned invasion?", "question_index": 19, "text": "So what role do you see MBS playing in the future of this war, in the future of Israeli-Palestinian relations? And how much - you know, how much power do they have in deciding the outcome of this three-way deal that's being negotiated and is now on hold between the Saudis, Israel and the U.S.?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "At least according to American officials who have met with him in recent months to discuss a possible deal with Israel, they say he articulates the economic advantages of a deal because, as you say, i"}
{"id": "1210076717", "date": "2023-11-02", "guest": "Mark Mazzetti", "title": "'Everybody got it wrong': How did Israel fail to detect Hamas' planned invasion?", "question_index": 20, "text": "Let's talk about what it would mean if the Saudis recognized Israel and opened diplomatic relations. What would it mean for Israel?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in a way, MBS has most, if not all, of the leverage here, and maybe he has all along where he is the one who can say, yes, I'm going to make peace with Israel. But here's my price. And, yes, the"}
{"id": "1210076717", "date": "2023-11-02", "guest": "Mark Mazzetti", "title": "'Everybody got it wrong': How did Israel fail to detect Hamas' planned invasion?", "question_index": 21, "text": "What is the status of this possible accord between Israel, the Saudis and the U.S. now? It's definitely paused because of the war. Is it derailed or just paused? Do you have any insight into that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think there's a reason that Benjamin Netanyahu was so eager for a deal. It would have been a big political win to say the most important, powerful Arab country in the world officially recogniz"}
{"id": "1210076717", "date": "2023-11-02", "guest": "Mark Mazzetti", "title": "'Everybody got it wrong': How did Israel fail to detect Hamas' planned invasion?", "question_index": 22, "text": "Mark Mazzetti, thank you so much for joining us today and for explaining so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "According to American officials I've spoken to who have met with Mohammed bin Salman since the October 7 Hamas attack, he has said that he is still willing, at some point, to discuss a peace deal with"}
{"id": "1210076717", "date": "2023-11-02", "guest": "Mark Mazzetti", "title": "'Everybody got it wrong': How did Israel fail to detect Hamas' planned invasion?", "question_index": 23, "text": "Mark Mazzetti is a New York Times investigative correspondent based in Washington, focusing on national security. The Pulitzer Prize-winning World War II novel \"All The Light We Cannot See\" has been adapted into a miniseries. Our TV critic David Bianculli will have a review after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks very much."}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 0, "text": "Matthew Perry, why did you want to star in \"Numb,\" which is about a writer who is - has this kind of detachment from reality through this anxiety syndrome?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Matthew Perry began acting as a teenager, appearing in individual episodes of such shows as \"Charles In Charge,\" \"Silver Spoons\" and \"Beverly Hills, 90210.\" During his 10-year run on \"Friends,\" he gue"}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 1, "text": "You know, one of the things that most people hope to achieve by fame is desirability, that everybody will want to spend time with you, you can go to the best dinners or parties and have your choice of partners or whatever, and you're talking about identifying with the isolation that the character feels and identifying with, like, holing yourself up for weeks, you know, at home. What made you want to isolate yourself, or what made you feel isolated? - 'cause I'm assuming you're referring to a time when you were well-known and could have been, you know, in a very social world.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, for me personally, I was - I had just taken some time off because \"Friends\" had come to an end, and I was afforded the - you know, I was very lucky to be able to not have to work for a while. An"}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 2, "text": "Yes", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would like to say at this point that I feel that I am still very well-known."}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would like to say at this point that I feel that I am still very well-known."}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 4, "text": "Absolutely.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I'm just kidding. No, what..."}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 5, "text": "What was scary?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I'm - what I was talking about was, I think dealing with \"Friends,\" I got that show when I was 24 years old, and the - kind of the white-hot flame of fame at that point was pretty disillusioning to"}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 6, "text": "You were a really, like, well-known public figure when you'd go through periods of, like, isolation or whatever, and you also went through a period of being in rehab and so on, and that was written up in the press. So it must be really hard to go through periods like that when you're living, you know, under the microscope.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just that the world kind of changed overnight. And doors that were, you know, closed were now open, and creatively, that was good. But it just, you know, if you're fortunate enough or unfortunate enou"}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 7, "text": "Before you got the part on \"Friends,\" did you do verbal witty parts? Was that the kind of role that you saw yourself as getting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It must be hard to go through periods of - like that when I'm living under the microscope. Yes. Of course it was. Yes. I have, unfortunately, a rather well-documented history with having to deal with "}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 8, "text": "I've read that when you auditioned for \"Friends,\" you actually weren't going to audition because you were tied up with another pilot, but you ended up auditioning, and you already knew the lines because you had so many friends who were auditioning for the part that you eventually got. What was it like for you to audition for the part, having heard friends of yours do it in their way? Like, you'd already heard so many versions of the character.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, before \"Friends,\" you know, I was auditioning for everything. And what I would find that I - the parts that I was getting was sitcom auditions and people that were at least trying to be funny. A"}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 9, "text": "Now, how did you get the part in \"Studio 60,\" which is in hiatus now, hoping it comes back? And on that, you play - this is a - there's two movies that - there's two TV shows that recently premiered that are kind of like backstage at \"Saturday Night Live\" kind of shows. There's the comic one, and then \"Studio 60\" is more of a drama done by - you know, written by Aaron Sorkin, who did \"The West Wing,\" which you had a part on for one of the arcs. So how did you end up playing the head writer on the show in \"Studio 60\"?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2007 interview with actor Matthew Perry. The star of the hit sitcom \"Friends\" died last weekend at age 54."}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yeah. And one of the things that you guys have in common, in addition to being, like, smart and maybe a little cynical and funny and all of that, you also have, like, a period of, like, drug problems in your background, as does your character. And I wonder if that kind of helps link you to the character and to each other.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had little or no interest in returning to television 'cause my theory at the time was I had already been fortunate enough to be on one of the better shows, so why go back? And I just completed"}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 11, "text": "Do you remember the first time you saw yourself on film or on video and how that jived - or didn't jive - with your self-image of yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I think so. The character in the pilot was on Vicodin because of back surgery, and that obviously leapt off the page for me because I thought it, you know, afforded him to be a little freer "}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 12, "text": "Did you look like you expected to? Were you surprised at seeing yourself the way other people see you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's very interesting. You know, a lot of actors don't watch their own stuff, and a lot of actors watch a lot of it, and I'm probably somewhere in the middle. I mean, at first, as a young actor,"}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 13, "text": "'Cause mirrors are different than cameras.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Did I look like I expected myself to look? You know, I think I looked..."}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 14, "text": "Now, I know when you were growing up, your father did Old Spice ads. And for anybody who doesn't know or remember Old Spice, it was a kind of like aftershave and cologne that was really, really popular in the '60s and, I think, in the '70s, too. So your father was the guy who did the commercials on TV for Old Spice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They are. You know, I think I probably looked like I thought I was going to look, but, you know, it's what's going on in my head that's the problem. It was like - as I said, I'm, like, pointing - like"}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 15, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That's actually led to most of my problems because my father is the handsomest man in the world."}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 16, "text": "Right. So was it a lesson in what show business was like to have a father who was famous from commercials?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So that's led to why I look at myself on TV in the first place and also why I immediately go to the problems. But, yeah, that was - you know, a lot of you guys probably remember the - you know, there "}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 17, "text": "So your mother was the press secretary to Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was an interesting lesson on all fronts to have a father in this business because I got to see the highs and lows because he would, you know - he would have one year that was just off-the-cha"}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 18, "text": "So one parent is exposing you to, like, you know, Hollywood, and the other to politics. What was your impression of the political world growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 19, "text": "Did you see her on TV a lot? Did she have to make...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was absolutely fascinated by it. And she was around during Jean Chretien's liberal leadership campaign. And I was right there as a, you know, 12-year-old kid, just watching all of that happen "}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 20, "text": "...A lot of public statements?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did."}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 21, "text": "So you grew up in an environment where the people who you knew best, your parents, were on TV a lot. So I guess...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. I saw her on TV a lot, you know, especially during the campaigns and stuff 'cause she was always kind of, you know, around. So it was really an interesting time."}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 22, "text": "...Does that make it any more or less of a big deal to be on TV yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 23, "text": "Well, I want to thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the most interesting thing was - you know, I grew up in Canada, in Ottawa, Canada, and, you know, with my mom, and the way that I would see my father on a regular basis was on TV. He would call "}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 24, "text": "Your timing - your comic timing is so good. And I'm just wondering, you know, talk about intuitive, is that something that's intuitive or something that you worked on, that you were trained in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Phoebe Buffay) I think it's just, you know, that I haven't been with a guy in so long. And you know how sometimes you're looking for something, and you just don't even see that it's right there in"}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 25, "text": "Right, yeah. Well, I'm not agreeing with you that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I think it's intuitive. I go back-and-forth on it because I think every actor - I think everybody has the capacity for comedy, and everybody has the capacity for acting. But I don't know. I think "}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 26, "text": "You're inarticulate, but...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Yeah, you..."}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 27, "text": "How do you feel about this being the last season of \"Friends\"? Is that a good thing for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I heard it. Yeah."}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 28, "text": "What are some of the things that you think you'll miss and some of the things you won't?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a mixed bag of emotions. You know, I love TV, I like a TV schedule a lot, and I love everybody I'm working with. And it's a good show. People like it. People watch it. That's all good. But it's f"}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 29, "text": "What do you hate about the clothes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'll really miss - I'll miss, you know, those five actors and, you know, the executive producers I've become, you know, friendly with. I don't know that I'll miss - and I think I'll even miss Phoebe, "}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 30, "text": "Is it kind of a relief from yourself to do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's not my style at all, but - and it's always tights. You know, I hate pulling up tights. It's very silly, little things. But, I don't know, I'll just - I'll miss it. And in a way, I've missed the P"}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 31, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And a little of it seeps in, and I think it helps you cope with other things in your life better."}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 32, "text": "Is there anything in your life that you feel really connects to the lives of the characters on \"Friends\"? You know, like, did you ever have, like, friends walking in and out of your house all the time and a small group of people that knew everything about each other and that were lovers with each other and all that stuff?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. That's why I'm - I actually have a hard time, you know, defining anyone as stupid or, you know, ditzy or any of that because it's an easier life, and it maybe isn't so stupid."}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 33, "text": "Did you have lots of friends or were you more...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not even in college. That was never part of my experience, to be honest. No."}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 34, "text": "...On your own?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 35, "text": "You know, there's been, like, a whole industry of shows inspired by \"Friends.\" And, I mean, there are times - and it's been like this for years - when you put on the TV and you feel like every half-hour there's a new group of people in their 20s or 30s sitting on a couch talking to each other and having affairs with each other.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not on my own. I've always had, like, a few good friends at a time and then some acquaintances, you know. But, no, I never really had that core group of men and women, you know, that were just friends"}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 36, "text": "Is that bizarre for you to watch?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 37, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In the beginning, it was - not bizarre, I just thought, wow. It was flattering. To be honest, it was flattering. And then a little sad because I think TV does this all the time. I just read something "}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 38, "text": "When he told you to go there, did they just, like, let you in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I started with Jon Lovitz, who I grew up with. That's my brother's best friend and like a brother to me. And I had seen him struggle, you know, for a long time, and finally he was working. He got on \""}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 39, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". No, they called up and said - when I called them, they said, what's your experience? And I said, well, in junior high I..."}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 40, "text": "How come?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so they said, yeah, we're going to refer you to this teacher who we work with a lot. And her - she was a godsend. Her name's Cynthia Szigeti, and she was the best thing that could have happened to"}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 41, "text": "Is it a disc like a discus thrower disc?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because she didn't take no for an answer. And embarrassment was not an option, you just had to do it. And it was the best thing that ever happened to me. And, you know, it's improvisation and that cou"}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 42, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's - there's nothing there."}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 43, "text": "Oh, I see. I see. So it's a group exercise.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're pretending like - no, everyone's standing around in a circle, and you're all working together to lift a disc."}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 44, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. But there's this one guy who's doing it, and he's not embarrassing to me. And I thought, all right, well, I got to be friends with that guy, that's for sure. And it was Conan O'Brien."}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 45, "text": "Oh, that's interesting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, so we became friends, you know, from that class on. We were very close friends."}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 46, "text": "So how come you saw yourself as a comic actor? How did you know that, at least at the beginning, it was going to be about comedy for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And so I just kind of stuck with him because I thought, OK, he's got a handle on this."}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 47, "text": "What were you afraid of in terms of the people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I think I could handle that, being around those people. A lot of it was just about, who would I have to deal with if I'm going to do this career? And, you know, that was also a big deterrent for so "}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 48, "text": "Pretentiousness?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just..."}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 49, "text": "What were the erroneous beliefs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not so much a pretentiousness as too otherworldly, too - you know, because I feel like they're genuine in their erroneous beliefs. That's how I felt about it, you know?"}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 50, "text": "Was one of your fears about actors was that sense of, like, elevating craft to an almost, like, religious level?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "really rigid. And I'm not saying I was right back then, but that's just how I felt, like, you know, these people are idiots. And I don't want to be one of them, and I don't want to be associated with "}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 51, "text": "And what was your problem with that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Thank you, that was exactly what it was, yeah."}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 52, "text": "Hostility", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It didn't ring true to me at the time. It just felt like somebody - yeah, I mean, I think you were right when you said pretentious. I don't know why I rejected it so quickly. That was unfair."}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 53, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It didn't ring true to me at the time. It just felt like somebody - yeah, I mean, I think you were right when you said pretentious. I don't know why I rejected it so quickly. That was unfair."}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 54, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I don't know. It made me so angry at you."}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 55, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, maybe that was part of it, it just didn't ring true. It was something that I just always rejected. And, you know, I just lumped - I'm very black-and-white and especially then. So I see an actor or"}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 56, "text": "Do you think that the other women characters on \"Friends\" have been more sexualized than your character has been?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know, and hate all their divorces and hate, you know, just how messed up they were and not seeing it - you know, behaving as if, and of course, everyone would aspire to be me. You know, it's ju"}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 57, "text": "And is that because yours is the more kind of comedic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Sure."}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 58, "text": "Do you think it's about you, the actress, not about the character?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I think it's because I'm not as sexual as they are. I mean, I'm not as - I don't project that as much as they do."}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 59, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I really do. I really do. You know, there's no end to the amount of dating and, you know, sexual experiences that Phoebe refers to. So the opportunity was definitely there. But it's - I'm not co"}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 60, "text": "So what did you do? Did you say you're not comfortable and then button your shirt back up? Or did you say, well, you know, they're asking me to do this, and I'll be a good sport even though I don't feel comfortable?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have to be a sex performer for this photoshoot, and I wasn't comfortable with it."}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 61, "text": "Oh, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was trying - it was more of, get comfortable with this, Lisa. Come on. You know, stop that prejudice you have against everything. Maybe this is part of your old way of thinking, you know? And I trie"}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 62, "text": "That sexual pout.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know, opening your mouth a little, and your eyes get really big, and you purse your lips. That's like a comedy bit to me. And I've even done it as jokes in photo shoots or Polaroids. I always, "}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 63, "text": "That's really funny. Do you know people who do that naturally, or do you think that whole style of sexual allure is almost always pure acting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And it doesn't look crazy. It looks like what all these women look like when they look really sexy or doing these photographs. So now when I see those, I think, wow, they - the amount of contort"}
{"id": "1210433826", "date": "2023-11-03", "guest": "Lisa Kudrow", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers 'Friends' star Matthew Perry", "question_index": 64, "text": "Well, it's just been such a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you very much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I think there are people who it's pretty natural for. I mean, my husband has a pout to him, and he's sexy, and that's natural, can't help it. Everyone in his family, they're all French, you know? "}
{"id": "1211766670", "date": "2023-11-09", "guest": "Isabel Kershner", "title": "Journalist reflects on the ideological, religious and ethnic conflicts within Israel", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Isabel Kershner, covers Israeli and Palestinian politics and society for the New York Times and has been covering the war between Israel and Hamas. She previously was the senior editor at The Jerusalem Report. Her latest book, \"The Land Of Hope And Fear: Israel's Battle For Its Inner Soul,\" is about the generational, ideological, religious and ethnic conflicts within Israel. Kershner is British and has lived in Jerusalem since 2000. She was in Jerusalem when we recorded our interview yesterday. Isabel Kershner, welcome to FRESH AIR. Do you have friends, relatives, colleagues who were kidnapped or killed in Israel, or friends who have lost loved ones or their homes in Gaza?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1211766670", "date": "2023-11-09", "guest": "Isabel Kershner", "title": "Journalist reflects on the ideological, religious and ethnic conflicts within Israel", "question_index": 1, "text": "In your newspaper, The New York Times, the media adviser for Hamas is quoted as saying, \"I hope that the state of war with Israel will become permanent on all the borders and that the Arab world will stand with us.\" Does that surprise you that he'd make a statement like that? I mean, it feels like we're in a turning point of either a really long, permanent war or extreme circumstances like this leading to some kind of peace agreement. And I'm wondering if you feel like this is a dividing line, and the future is going to be really different.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hi Terry, and thank you for having me. I personally directly don't, but my two sons have friends who have been killed, who have been kidnapped to Gaza. I have relatives whose very close friends have b"}
{"id": "1211766670", "date": "2023-11-09", "guest": "Isabel Kershner", "title": "Journalist reflects on the ideological, religious and ethnic conflicts within Israel", "question_index": 2, "text": "I heard you in an interview that you recorded with someone - you were being interviewed, and this was in September, so it was just, like, a few weeks before the start of the war. I'm pretty sure it was recorded in September. And you were saying you thought it was possible that there would be a civil war within Israel because there were so many divisions within Israel. And that's what your book is about, those divisions, and that given the Netanyahu government plan to weaken the judiciary and all the protests in the streets, that there might actually be a civil war. Why did you really think there might be a civil war?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think you've touched on a really crucial point here. We are at some kind of watershed. What happened on October the 7 has been unparalleled for Israel. It was the deadliest day in its 75-year "}
{"id": "1211766670", "date": "2023-11-09", "guest": "Isabel Kershner", "title": "Journalist reflects on the ideological, religious and ethnic conflicts within Israel", "question_index": 3, "text": "There's a difference between protests and civil war. What was making you think about civil war?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, when I was writing the book, the idea of there actually being a civil war was extremely theoretical, although people were already warning of it. And the book actually ends, more or les"}
{"id": "1211766670", "date": "2023-11-09", "guest": "Isabel Kershner", "title": "Journalist reflects on the ideological, religious and ethnic conflicts within Israel", "question_index": 4, "text": "Has that, for now, changed because of Israeli unity against Hamas?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's really the zealotry and the feeling that was coming through that one side felt that the other side was taking the country away from them. And on my journey through Israeli society for the b"}
{"id": "1211766670", "date": "2023-11-09", "guest": "Isabel Kershner", "title": "Journalist reflects on the ideological, religious and ethnic conflicts within Israel", "question_index": 5, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Isabel Kershner, who covers Israeli and Palestinian politics and society for The New York Times and has been covering the war between Israel and Hamas. Her new book is called \"The Land Of Hope And Fear: Israel's Battle For Its Inner Soul.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So what we've seen is from the moment that the Hamas attack took place, we've seen the country snap together. In the months before October the 7th, you had thousands of Israeli reservists, including t"}
{"id": "1211766670", "date": "2023-11-09", "guest": "Isabel Kershner", "title": "Journalist reflects on the ideological, religious and ethnic conflicts within Israel", "question_index": 6, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Joining us from Jerusalem is Isabel Kershner, who covers Israeli and Palestinian politics and society for The New York Times and has been covering the war between Israel and Hamas. Her recent book is called \"The Land Of Hope And Fear: Israel's Battle For Its Inner Soul.\" So you've talked about how the ultra-Orthodox are growing in numbers in Israel, and they're growing in power in Israel. And there's also the ultranationalists, and it's the ultranationalists who have populated many of the settlements in the West Bank. So how would you describe the ultranationalists and the divisions that they've created in Israel?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So what we've seen is from the moment that the Hamas attack took place, we've seen the country snap together. In the months before October the 7th, you had thousands of Israeli reservists, including t"}
{"id": "1211766670", "date": "2023-11-09", "guest": "Isabel Kershner", "title": "Journalist reflects on the ideological, religious and ethnic conflicts within Israel", "question_index": 7, "text": "So you described the ultranationalists as being in a minority. How well are they represented in government now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we're talking really about a separate group here known as Religious Zionists. So whereas the ultra-Orthodox are very ambivalent about Zionism - traditionally, they did not think there should be "}
{"id": "1211766670", "date": "2023-11-09", "guest": "Isabel Kershner", "title": "Journalist reflects on the ideological, religious and ethnic conflicts within Israel", "question_index": 8, "text": "Since the ultranationalists are disproportionately represented, they're a minority that has a lot of power in the Israeli government. So does that mean they will have a disproportionate amount of say in how and when this war ends and what happens after?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there you go. This government, they're extremely represented because Prime Minister Netanyahu needed a majority at any cost. His sole goal was to be back in power after four elections with a kin"}
{"id": "1211766670", "date": "2023-11-09", "guest": "Isabel Kershner", "title": "Journalist reflects on the ideological, religious and ethnic conflicts within Israel", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Isabel Kershner. She covers Israeli and Palestinian politics and society for The New York Times and has been covering the war. Her recent book is called \"The Land Of Hope And Fear: Israel's Battle For Its Inner Soul.\" She's speaking to us from Jerusalem. We're going to take a short break, and then we'll be back. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think when it comes to prosecuting the war, Netanyahu has basically left them out. As soon as October the 7th happened, he formed a very small emergency war cabinet, and the ultranationalists are no"}
{"id": "1211766670", "date": "2023-11-09", "guest": "Isabel Kershner", "title": "Journalist reflects on the ideological, religious and ethnic conflicts within Israel", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Isabel Kershner, who covers Israeli and Palestinian politics and society for The New York Times and has been covering the war between Israel and Hamas. Her new book is called \"The Land Of Hope And Fear: Israel's Battle For Its Inner Soul.\" It's about the ideological, religious, ethnic and generational divisions within Israel. It's also about life for Palestinians in Israel and the West Bank. She's speaking to us from Jerusalem. Let's talk about some other divisions within Israel. There are ethnic divisions, as well. So what are some of the ethnic divisions within Israel that are causing tensions within the country?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think when it comes to prosecuting the war, Netanyahu has basically left them out. As soon as October the 7th happened, he formed a very small emergency war cabinet, and the ultranationalists are no"}
{"id": "1211766670", "date": "2023-11-09", "guest": "Isabel Kershner", "title": "Journalist reflects on the ideological, religious and ethnic conflicts within Israel", "question_index": 11, "text": "Is the younger generation as right wing as the older generation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'd say there are two main ethnic divisions here. One is between the Jewish majority and the Palestinian Arab minority of citizens who make up about a fifth of the population of Israel proper. T"}
{"id": "1211766670", "date": "2023-11-09", "guest": "Isabel Kershner", "title": "Journalist reflects on the ideological, religious and ethnic conflicts within Israel", "question_index": 12, "text": "My guest is Isabel Kershner, a New York Times reporter based in Jerusalem who has been covering the war. She's also the author of the book \"The Land Of Hope And Fear: Israel's Battle For Its Inner Soul.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's become more mixed, but, you know, you find that there's almost a kind of tribal loyalty to the Likud among a lot of families. And the Likud base, as they call it, is largely made up of Mizrahim w"}
{"id": "1211766670", "date": "2023-11-09", "guest": "Isabel Kershner", "title": "Journalist reflects on the ideological, religious and ethnic conflicts within Israel", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Isabel Kershner, who's joining us from Jerusalem. She's a reporter for The New York Times who's been covering the war and for years has covered Israeli and Palestinian politics and society. She's also the author of the recent book \"The Land Of Hope And Fear: Israel's Battle For Its Inner Soul.\" So you write for a new generation of Palestinians in Israel and in the West Bank, Palestinians who are educated, savvy about social media, that some of the goals and some of the language about the goals have changed. How have they changed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's become more mixed, but, you know, you find that there's almost a kind of tribal loyalty to the Likud among a lot of families. And the Likud base, as they call it, is largely made up of Mizrahim w"}
{"id": "1211766670", "date": "2023-11-09", "guest": "Isabel Kershner", "title": "Journalist reflects on the ideological, religious and ethnic conflicts within Israel", "question_index": 14, "text": "A lot of people think that we're getting to the point where a two-state solution will be impossible because the West Bank is so divided between Palestinians and Israeli settlements. And even though Israel had said it wouldn't create more settlements, it did. And so the West Bank is becoming more divided and less contiguous because of the Israeli settlements.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Terry, for years, for decades, you know, the basic paradigm for a solution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict was the two-state solution, whereby there would be an independent Palestinian state"}
{"id": "1211766670", "date": "2023-11-09", "guest": "Isabel Kershner", "title": "Journalist reflects on the ideological, religious and ethnic conflicts within Israel", "question_index": 15, "text": "There is a big concrete wall and steel fences within the West Bank, and I'm wondering if you could describe those and how it divides the Jewish Israeli settlements from Palestinians in the West Bank.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, the settlements are certainly not making any future territorial separation any easier. They're complicating any prospect of a contiguous Palestinian independent state in the West Bank. B"}
{"id": "1211766670", "date": "2023-11-09", "guest": "Isabel Kershner", "title": "Journalist reflects on the ideological, religious and ethnic conflicts within Israel", "question_index": 16, "text": "You mentioned that the barriers were built as a result of the Second Intifada. In your book, you describe the Second Intifada as kind of taking place on your doorstep while you were living in Jerusalem, where you are now. You were raising two children in a neighborhood you describe as a genteel neighborhood not far from the center of West Jerusalem. In what sense was the horror almost on your family's doorstep?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the barrier or the wall or the security fence or however one refers to it, it was actually a result of the suicide bombings of the Intifada, or the second Palestinian uprising. Ariel Sharon, when h"}
{"id": "1211766670", "date": "2023-11-09", "guest": "Isabel Kershner", "title": "Journalist reflects on the ideological, religious and ethnic conflicts within Israel", "question_index": 17, "text": "My guest is Isabel Kershner, who covers Israeli and Palestinian politics and society for The New York Times and has been covering the war between Israel and Hamas. Her latest book is called \"The Land Of Hope And Fear: Israel's Battle For Its Inner Soul.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was in the sense that you would be sitting in your living room one evening and hear a massive boom that you knew was a suicide bomber detonating somewhere within 10 minutes' walk of your hous"}
{"id": "1211766670", "date": "2023-11-09", "guest": "Isabel Kershner", "title": "Journalist reflects on the ideological, religious and ethnic conflicts within Israel", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Isabel Kershner, who's joining us from Jerusalem. She covers Israeli and Palestinian politics and society for The New York Times, and has been covering the war between Israel and Hamas. Her latest book is called \"The Land Of Hope And Fear: Israel's Battle For Its Inner Soul.\" I keep wondering what happens to the people in Gaza. Seventy percent of Gazans have been displaced by this war, and for a lot of them, there will be no home to return to because no matter how this war ends, their homes will have been destroyed and turned into rubble. And I just keep thinking, like, what happens to them? Where do they go? How is Gaza rebuilt? You know, it's the - part of Gaza is going to be just destroyed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was in the sense that you would be sitting in your living room one evening and hear a massive boom that you knew was a suicide bomber detonating somewhere within 10 minutes' walk of your hous"}
{"id": "1211766670", "date": "2023-11-09", "guest": "Isabel Kershner", "title": "Journalist reflects on the ideological, religious and ethnic conflicts within Israel", "question_index": 19, "text": "How is gone defined?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is the tragedy of Gaza. I mean, the images we are seeing is of total destruction. You know, in Northern Gaza, I - parts of Northern Gaza, I don't know if there'll be a building left standing that"}
{"id": "1211766670", "date": "2023-11-09", "guest": "Isabel Kershner", "title": "Journalist reflects on the ideological, religious and ethnic conflicts within Israel", "question_index": 20, "text": "Well, Isabel, I wish you safety, and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. What does that mean? Israel, I think, doesn't have any illusions about being able to disarm every last gunman. I don't know what that means. I don't know if anybody really knows what that means."}
{"id": "1211766670", "date": "2023-11-09", "guest": "Isabel Kershner", "title": "Journalist reflects on the ideological, religious and ethnic conflicts within Israel", "question_index": 21, "text": "...I want to thank you for your reporting and for your book. And thank you for being our guest.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1211766670", "date": "2023-11-09", "guest": "Isabel Kershner", "title": "Journalist reflects on the ideological, religious and ethnic conflicts within Israel", "question_index": 22, "text": "Isabel Kershner is a New York Times reporter who has been covering the war between Israel and Hamas and is the author of the book \"The Land Of Hope And Fear: Israel's Battle For Its Inner Soul.\" She spoke to us from Jerusalem.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1211766670", "date": "2023-11-09", "guest": "Isabel Kershner", "title": "Journalist reflects on the ideological, religious and ethnic conflicts within Israel", "question_index": 23, "text": "If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, like this week's interviews with Barbra Streisand, Sofia Coppola and Tariq Trotter, aka Black Thought of the band The Roots, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. And just a reminder, you can subscribe to our free, weekly FRESH AIR newsletter at whyy.org/freshair. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Ann Marie Baldonado, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1211788853", "date": "2023-11-10", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "A Marine veteran says the contradictions of war can make you feel insane", "question_index": 0, "text": "Did war feel anything like what you imagined it would feel like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. Veteran's Day is tomorrow, and today we feature interviews with and about veterans. Elliot Ackerman is a former Marine and intelligence officer who has become a re"}
{"id": "1211788853", "date": "2023-11-10", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "A Marine veteran says the contradictions of war can make you feel insane", "question_index": 1, "text": "And the sound was sometimes really loud, like ear-shattering loud.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the thing that's often not conveyed in film is that when you're in war, you don't really see war. You actually - it's more that you hear it. So the sense that you're engaging with most is your"}
{"id": "1211788853", "date": "2023-11-10", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "A Marine veteran says the contradictions of war can make you feel insane", "question_index": 2, "text": "So your hearing became really attuned.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ear-shattering loud, or the thing I think that's scarier than something that sounds very, very loud is something that sounds very, very close."}
{"id": "1211788853", "date": "2023-11-10", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "A Marine veteran says the contradictions of war can make you feel insane", "question_index": 3, "text": "In your memoir, \"Places And Names,\" you have a section - it's the last chapter of the book - in which you quote from the long citation when you were awarded a Silver Star for bravery. And so you juxtapose excerpts of that citation with what was actually going through your mind at the time of the Battle of Fallujah, which is what earned you the citation. You were leading a platoon in urban combat in the early days of the Iraq War. And there's an excerpt I'd like you to read. This kind of is a back-to-back version of the citation and what's going through your mind. And before you do the reading, let me just quote one more line from the citation for your Silver Star. (Reading) Lieutenant Ackerman's heroic actions during this period, the Battle of Fallujah, reflect a level of bravery, composure under fire, and combat leadership that is beyond expectation. So would you read the excerpt of the citation along with what you were thinking during the battle?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It becomes very attuned. And your sense of time also warps. And the - to this day, the most intense engagements that I was involved in, I still have a hard time locating them on a timeline, mean"}
{"id": "1211788853", "date": "2023-11-10", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "A Marine veteran says the contradictions of war can make you feel insane", "question_index": 4, "text": "How did you know whether to send this Marine away - because he was so afraid, and fear is contagious, or whether you really needed to keep him in the platoon during this battle?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Sure. It begins with part of the citation. I think you'll be able to tell the portions where I'm filling in the gaps. (Reading) During the course of the fighting in Fallujah, his platoon took ca"}
{"id": "1211788853", "date": "2023-11-10", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "A Marine veteran says the contradictions of war can make you feel insane", "question_index": 5, "text": "How did you think of this Marine who said, I can't take it anymore? Did you think of him as a coward or as you described as a psychological casualty of war?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, before I ever set foot in front of a rifle platoon, I had trained for the better part of six years, if you count, you know, all the time I did in college, all the summer trainings I did in c"}
{"id": "1211788853", "date": "2023-11-10", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "A Marine veteran says the contradictions of war can make you feel insane", "question_index": 6, "text": "One of the things you've written - and I think it was about the Battle of Fallujah - was when you ordered, you know, fire against a group of insurgents, and there was a cloud of smoke, and they were just kind of lying on the ground, like, crumpled - that it sometimes felt more like murder. And I'm wondering why you use that word and where the line is for you between, you know, killing in war and murder. It seems like something you've thought about.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thought about it, I think, in two terms. I could recognize that he was a psychological casualty of war, but I couldn't deny the fact, you know, as a - again, as a young lieutenant trying to hold the"}
{"id": "1211788853", "date": "2023-11-10", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "A Marine veteran says the contradictions of war can make you feel insane", "question_index": 7, "text": "So, you know, you were awarded for bravery. Did bravery have, like, meaning for you? Do you know what I mean? Do you think, I'm brave, or do you just, like, do what you need to do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2021 interview with Elliot Ackerman, a former Marine and intelligence officer who served five tours in Iraq and Afghanistan. He received a Silver Star, the"}
{"id": "1211788853", "date": "2023-11-10", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "A Marine veteran says the contradictions of war can make you feel insane", "question_index": 8, "text": "You were almost killed toward the end of your last deployment. An IED exploded right in front of your tank? Car?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But if you're like me, maybe you felt fear before. I've certainly felt fear. I know exactly what that feels like. That being said, I've seen people - Marines, civilians, journalists - I've seen them"}
{"id": "1211788853", "date": "2023-11-10", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "A Marine veteran says the contradictions of war can make you feel insane", "question_index": 9, "text": "OK. Did - what went through your mind? I mean, you survived five deployments. You were at the end of the fifth. I think it's everybody's worst nightmare. Like, you go through the whole thing and then you, like, die right before it's over. You die at the last minute.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My - yeah, my - basically, the truck I was in."}
{"id": "1211788853", "date": "2023-11-10", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "A Marine veteran says the contradictions of war can make you feel insane", "question_index": 10, "text": "I'd like to end this Veteran's Day interview by asking you to share a memory of one of your fellow Marines who did not make it back.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was a new father at that point. And these wars have been going on for a long time. And I don't think - I only speak for myself, but I think many others might say this. You know, if you ask me why I "}
{"id": "1211788853", "date": "2023-11-10", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "A Marine veteran says the contradictions of war can make you feel insane", "question_index": 11, "text": "Well, I'm sorry for your loss and for, you know, all the losses you suffered of fellow Marines and Afghan people, too, who you became close to. Thank you for being so reflective about the experience of war and the complications and paradoxes and consequences of war. I really appreciate you speaking to us today. And thank you for your writing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One of the Marines I served with who was pretty legendary in the Marines Special Operations and the Raider community is a guy named Master Sgt. Aaron Torian. Everyone called him T. And I was lucky eno"}
{"id": "1212878519", "date": "2023-11-14", "guest": "Brian Stelter", "title": "What's next for Fox News now that Rupert Murdoch has stepped down?", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. What's changing at Fox News? It paid a settlement of more than $787 million to Dominion Voting Systems. Fox fired its popular host Tucker Carlson. This week Rupert Murdoch officially hands over the titles chair of Fox Corp., Fox's broadcast arm, and News Corp., which publishes newspapers and books. My guest, Brian Stelter, is the author of the new book \"Network Of Lies: The Epic Saga Of Fox News, Donald Trump And The Battle For American Democracy.\" It's a follow-up to Stelter's bestselling 2020 book about Fox called \"Hoax.\" The new book is about how Fox helped spread the lie that Trump won the election. It also examines the secrets that were exposed about what Fox hosts and executives really thought about the conspiracy theories spread on Fox. Part of the book's focus is on Tucker Carlson, who was fired just after Fox settled with Dominion. Dominion Voting Systems was suing Fox for spreading baseless conspiracy theories alleging that Dominion rigged its voting machines so that Biden would win. Just before the trial was about to start, Fox decided to settle, presumably to prevent Dominion lawyers from exposing private communications from Fox News hosts and executives, revealing their hypocrisies. Stelter is the former chief media correspondent for CNN and hosted CNN's former Sunday program about the media called \"Reliable Sources.\" Before that, he was a media reporter for The New York Times. He's now a special correspondent for Vanity Fair and host of the podcast \"Inside The Hive.\" He's a producer on the Apple TV+ series \"The Morning Show,\" which is inspired by his first book, \"Top Of The Morning.\" Brian Stelter, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Your book is really interesting, so thank you for coming back to our show.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1212878519", "date": "2023-11-14", "guest": "Brian Stelter", "title": "What's next for Fox News now that Rupert Murdoch has stepped down?", "question_index": 1, "text": "So this week is a big transition week from Rupert Murdoch to his son Lachlan taking over the reins. How do they compare in terms of their politics and management style and goals for Fox?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a great privilege. Thank you."}
{"id": "1212878519", "date": "2023-11-14", "guest": "Brian Stelter", "title": "What's next for Fox News now that Rupert Murdoch has stepped down?", "question_index": 2, "text": "Well, if Lachlan is focused on advertising, I mean, Tucker Carlson's extremism cost the network a lot of money. A lot of the sponsors pulled out. They had to rely on MyPillow", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Rupert Murdoch is, in his heart, a newspaper man. He believes he is a journalist. Yes, he comes at it from the right. He has certain very strongly held opinions. But he deeply cares about his ne"}
{"id": "1212878519", "date": "2023-11-14", "guest": "Brian Stelter", "title": "What's next for Fox News now that Rupert Murdoch has stepped down?", "question_index": 3, "text": "for - as a primary sponsor.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Rupert Murdoch is, in his heart, a newspaper man. He believes he is a journalist. Yes, he comes at it from the right. He has certain very strongly held opinions. But he deeply cares about his ne"}
{"id": "1212878519", "date": "2023-11-14", "guest": "Brian Stelter", "title": "What's next for Fox News now that Rupert Murdoch has stepped down?", "question_index": 4, "text": "What about Lachlan's brother James? What's his relation to Fox News now and to his family?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that's one of the reasons why Lachlan eventually decided to cut ties with Tucker and fired him last August by canceling his show. It was a cold-hearted business calculation. And we can talk about "}
{"id": "1212878519", "date": "2023-11-14", "guest": "Brian Stelter", "title": "What's next for Fox News now that Rupert Murdoch has stepped down?", "question_index": 5, "text": "I think James quit the board in 2020.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Anyone who's watched \"Succession\" has a little bit of a sense of this because this is a very real drama. James is the more liberal son. He is the outcast at the moment. He is not involved at all in th"}
{"id": "1212878519", "date": "2023-11-14", "guest": "Brian Stelter", "title": "What's next for Fox News now that Rupert Murdoch has stepped down?", "question_index": 6, "text": "So there's - what? - eight votes in the trust - in the Murdoch trust?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. He said goodbye - no more board meetings, no more grip-and-grins. But, you know, as his wife, Kathryn, once said to The New York Times, when you're a part of the family, it's never really over."}
{"id": "1212878519", "date": "2023-11-14", "guest": "Brian Stelter", "title": "What's next for Fox News now that Rupert Murdoch has stepped down?", "question_index": 7, "text": "So it's a complex family with siblings from multiple marriages. But the siblings with votes are Lachlan, James and their two adult sisters. So where do those two sisters stand?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. There's eight votes. And right now, Rupert Murdoch has four of those eight, which is how he maintains control. So even though we're going to hear this week about his stepping aside, beco"}
{"id": "1212878519", "date": "2023-11-14", "guest": "Brian Stelter", "title": "What's next for Fox News now that Rupert Murdoch has stepped down?", "question_index": 8, "text": "Yeah, what is Fox now? - 'cause Murdoch sold most of 20th Century Fox to Disney at the end of 2017 for $71 billion, and the children got, like, how many billions a piece?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right, Elisabeth and half-sister Prudence. These are described as the adult children, the four adult children. There are two younger daughters who are now in college or beyond college. They are"}
{"id": "1212878519", "date": "2023-11-14", "guest": "Brian Stelter", "title": "What's next for Fox News now that Rupert Murdoch has stepped down?", "question_index": 9, "text": "What lawsuits is Fox facing now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Close to $2 billion each, which is why someone like James Murdoch is now off making his own investments, creating his own media company. Now, that 2 billion - that was important, you know, for Rupert "}
{"id": "1212878519", "date": "2023-11-14", "guest": "Brian Stelter", "title": "What's next for Fox News now that Rupert Murdoch has stepped down?", "question_index": 10, "text": "There's individuals suing Fox too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Possibly the largest lawsuit is by Smartmatic. That's one of those voting technology companies that I had never heard of until the 2020 election; maybe you hadn't either. You know, these relatively ob"}
{"id": "1212878519", "date": "2023-11-14", "guest": "Brian Stelter", "title": "What's next for Fox News now that Rupert Murdoch has stepped down?", "question_index": 11, "text": "You describe in your book how Fox started to pull away from Trump after January 6. Where are they now in terms of their coverage of Trump and Fox's relationship to Trump?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right individuals like Ray Epps. He was at the Capitol during the riot on January 6. He has pled guilty to an offense there. But for many months, Tucker Carlson - and, to some extent, others on"}
{"id": "1212878519", "date": "2023-11-14", "guest": "Brian Stelter", "title": "What's next for Fox News now that Rupert Murdoch has stepped down?", "question_index": 12, "text": "Does Trump still make a lot of appearances on Fox?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The short answer is that nobody's happy. No side is satisfied. Donald Trump does not think Fox is fair. Of course, he'll never think Fox is fair to him. He'll never think any media coverage is sycopha"}
{"id": "1212878519", "date": "2023-11-14", "guest": "Brian Stelter", "title": "What's next for Fox News now that Rupert Murdoch has stepped down?", "question_index": 13, "text": "Is that to keep their base?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Trump does appear from time to time, but he's less of a visible presence than he was in, let's say, 2016, during the campaign then. One of the differences now is that Fox refuses to air Trump live. Th"}
{"id": "1212878519", "date": "2023-11-14", "guest": "Brian Stelter", "title": "What's next for Fox News now that Rupert Murdoch has stepped down?", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, so let me reintroduce you. My guest is Brian Stelter. His new book is called \"Network Of Lies: The Epic Saga Of Fox News, Donald Trump, And The Battle For American Democracy.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, absolutely, because Fox and Trump share a base. Fox in many ways created Donald Trump, Trump in many ways lifted Fox up as well, boosted Fox. I would also argue the opposite is true. Fox misinfor"}
{"id": "1212878519", "date": "2023-11-14", "guest": "Brian Stelter", "title": "What's next for Fox News now that Rupert Murdoch has stepped down?", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Brian Stelter, author of the new book \"Network Of Lies: The Epic Saga Of Fox News, Donald Trump, And The Battle For American Democracy.\" Brian Stelter is a former CNN media correspondent and former host of the CNN Sunday show \"Reliable Sources,\" which actually got canceled how long ago", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, absolutely, because Fox and Trump share a base. Fox in many ways created Donald Trump, Trump in many ways lifted Fox up as well, boosted Fox. I would also argue the opposite is true. Fox misinfor"}
{"id": "1212878519", "date": "2023-11-14", "guest": "Brian Stelter", "title": "What's next for Fox News now that Rupert Murdoch has stepped down?", "question_index": 16, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, absolutely, because Fox and Trump share a base. Fox in many ways created Donald Trump, Trump in many ways lifted Fox up as well, boosted Fox. I would also argue the opposite is true. Fox misinfor"}
{"id": "1212878519", "date": "2023-11-14", "guest": "Brian Stelter", "title": "What's next for Fox News now that Rupert Murdoch has stepped down?", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yeah, OK. So you're leading a new life. OK. Trump is now indicted on several charges. There's different cases against him. There are also indicted and unindicted co-conspirators who are cited. Among them, who are some of the ones who have been Fox News regulars?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "August of 2022."}
{"id": "1212878519", "date": "2023-11-14", "guest": "Brian Stelter", "title": "What's next for Fox News now that Rupert Murdoch has stepped down?", "question_index": 18, "text": "OK. You mentioned that the Dominion conspiracy theory basically started on Fox. The conspiracy theory is that Dominion machines were really controlled and manipulated by outside sources, and the goal was to deliver the election to Biden by tampering with the machines. So - and you say this conspiracy theory started on Maria Bartiromo's show. How exactly did it start?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Well, two of the names that come to mind right away are Rudy Giuliani and Sidney Powell. When I read through the various indictments over the summer, I realized these are - you know, these are "}
{"id": "1212878519", "date": "2023-11-14", "guest": "Brian Stelter", "title": "What's next for Fox News now that Rupert Murdoch has stepped down?", "question_index": 19, "text": "How much do you know about who that woman was who sent the email?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Once Biden was projected to be president-elect, Trump and his allies needed to tell a news story. They needed to say that it was stolen. But how? Who stole what? How? Well, they needed to come up with"}
{"id": "1212878519", "date": "2023-11-14", "guest": "Brian Stelter", "title": "What's next for Fox News now that Rupert Murdoch has stepped down?", "question_index": 20, "text": "Oh, no.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Her name is Marlene Bourne. And The Daily Beast was able to follow up with her after this all became public. She said she, quote, \"based her now nationally prominent ideas about election fraud on a wi"}
{"id": "1212878519", "date": "2023-11-14", "guest": "Brian Stelter", "title": "What's next for Fox News now that Rupert Murdoch has stepped down?", "question_index": 21, "text": "Was the premise that it all started, like you just described, on Maria Bartiromo's show because of this wacky email by one woman that Sidney Powell received? Did they - did Fox executives or hosts or Maria herself contest that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...\"And overheard conversations she hears while in line at the supermarket checkout.\" Now, this was an incredible discovery on the part of the Dominion lawyers because, you know, after they sued Fox a"}
{"id": "1212878519", "date": "2023-11-14", "guest": "Brian Stelter", "title": "What's next for Fox News now that Rupert Murdoch has stepped down?", "question_index": 22, "text": "Well, we have to take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Brian Stelter, and he's the author of the new book \"Network Of Lies: The Epic Saga Of Fox News, Donald Trump, And The Battle For American Democracy.\" He is a former media correspondent for CNN and was the host of CNN's Sunday show \"Reliable Sources,\" which was a show about the media. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Bartiromo was asked about this under oath during her Dominion deposition. She said she didn't know who this person was. She acted like it didn't really matter, but it mattered a lot because this w"}
{"id": "1212878519", "date": "2023-11-14", "guest": "Brian Stelter", "title": "What's next for Fox News now that Rupert Murdoch has stepped down?", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Brian Stelter. His new book is called \"Network Of Lies: The Epic Saga Of Fox News, Donald Trump, And The Battle For American Democracy.\" It's a follow-up to his 2020 book about Fox, which was called \"Hoax.\" Stelter is the former host of CNN's media show, a show about the media, which was called \"Reliable Sources.\" He's a former CNN media correspondent and a former New York Times media correspondent who now writes for Vanity Fair. So part of your book is about all the things you learned through emails that were made public as part of the discovery process - the pretrial discovery process in the Dominion lawsuit against Fox. And you say that, you know, some of the emails that you found that were really interesting weren't ever - didn't ever make it into the media because the media wasn't - there's, like, so many emails. The media - you know, the media combined couldn't really cover all of them. So give us an example of one or two of the nuggets that you found that really helped tell the story of what happened in the aftermath of Trump saying that he won the election.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Bartiromo was asked about this under oath during her Dominion deposition. She said she didn't know who this person was. She acted like it didn't really matter, but it mattered a lot because this w"}
{"id": "1212878519", "date": "2023-11-14", "guest": "Brian Stelter", "title": "What's next for Fox News now that Rupert Murdoch has stepped down?", "question_index": 24, "text": "So give us another example of a nugget that you found that wasn't really made public by other media sources.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. The first one that comes to mind is from Tucker Carlson texting Laura Ingraham when they were both prime time hosts on Fox in November of 2020. Tucker said, it's getting too crazy. We're becomin"}
{"id": "1212878519", "date": "2023-11-14", "guest": "Brian Stelter", "title": "What's next for Fox News now that Rupert Murdoch has stepped down?", "question_index": 25, "text": "Do you have any insights into why there was that dissonance between what he saw as his responsibility as the head of Fox News - Fox News should not spread falsehoods. But at the same time, Fox News was spreading all kinds of conspiracy theories and, of course, the lie that Trump actually won the election.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. There's a lot in Rupert Murdoch's deposition that deserves attention. Rupert Murdoch was deposed for two days by Dominion's lawyers. It is basically the only in-depth interview that he has given"}
{"id": "1212878519", "date": "2023-11-14", "guest": "Brian Stelter", "title": "What's next for Fox News now that Rupert Murdoch has stepped down?", "question_index": 26, "text": "We know he knew what was on Fox News. So why would he so firmly state that Fox, you know, stood for accuracy while, in reality, it was the opposite?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1212878519", "date": "2023-11-14", "guest": "Brian Stelter", "title": "What's next for Fox News now that Rupert Murdoch has stepped down?", "question_index": 27, "text": "Tucker Carlson was actually fired from Fox the week after Fox settled with Dominion by paying...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think there are a couple of possible explanations, and none of them make Rupert look good. One is that he's just not the man he used to be, that he has lost a step. But the Dominion lawyers who were"}
{"id": "1212878519", "date": "2023-11-14", "guest": "Brian Stelter", "title": "What's next for Fox News now that Rupert Murdoch has stepped down?", "question_index": 28, "text": "...Seven hundred eighty-seven million dollars to Dominion in the settlement. You say there's more than one reason that Tucker Carlson was fired. So tell us some of the reasons.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1212878519", "date": "2023-11-14", "guest": "Brian Stelter", "title": "What's next for Fox News now that Rupert Murdoch has stepped down?", "question_index": 29, "text": "Does he have much of an audience now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's frustrating that Fox never actually shared any rationale or any reason because in that information vacuum, conspiracy theories immediately started to form. And some of those theories were leaked "}
{"id": "1212878519", "date": "2023-11-14", "guest": "Brian Stelter", "title": "What's next for Fox News now that Rupert Murdoch has stepped down?", "question_index": 30, "text": "Well, let's take one more break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Brian Stelter, author of the new book \"Network Of Lies: The Epic Saga Of Fox News, Donald Trump, And The Battle For American Democracy.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's very hard to measure because the metrics you see on X are basically unbelievable. The view counts cannot be taken seriously. He does clearly, though, have a fan base and a fan base that will foll"}
{"id": "1212878519", "date": "2023-11-14", "guest": "Brian Stelter", "title": "What's next for Fox News now that Rupert Murdoch has stepped down?", "question_index": 31, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Brian Stelter, author of the new book \"Network Of Lies: The Epic Saga Of Fox News, Donald Trump, And The Battle For American Democracy.\" He's a former CNN media correspondent, and he formerly hosted CNN's show about the media called \"Reliable Sources.\" Tucker Carlson created the image of himself as, like, man of the people fighting the elites. And as you point out in your book, he's one of the elites. He grew up in a wealthy family. His mother's family had money. His stepmother was part of the Swanson foods family, so she had a lot of money. So do you want to compare his past with the image he presented of himself on Fox?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's very hard to measure because the metrics you see on X are basically unbelievable. The view counts cannot be taken seriously. He does clearly, though, have a fan base and a fan base that will foll"}
{"id": "1212878519", "date": "2023-11-14", "guest": "Brian Stelter", "title": "What's next for Fox News now that Rupert Murdoch has stepped down?", "question_index": 32, "text": "His audience may not have known this, but he did - he often did his Fox News show from personal studios that he had in his summer home in Maine and his winter retreat in Florida. So Fox paid for those studios, right? They were in his...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, definitely. And I think some of his fans might be in on this joke, but not all of them. You know, this is a guy who grew up as a heir to the Swanson TV dinner empire, you know, who has a island "}
{"id": "1212878519", "date": "2023-11-14", "guest": "Brian Stelter", "title": "What's next for Fox News now that Rupert Murdoch has stepped down?", "question_index": 33, "text": "They were in his, like, homes or compounds, but Fox outfitted them. Why do you think that's significant?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "1212878519", "date": "2023-11-14", "guest": "Brian Stelter", "title": "What's next for Fox News now that Rupert Murdoch has stepped down?", "question_index": 34, "text": "You know, something I find interesting - you just talked about how Tucker Carlson moved to Maine and Florida after an attempt to invade his home. And a lot of the things he said on the air led to attacks on other people, people who he considered villains. Their lives were at stake. Their families' lives were threatened. But when it happened to him, he got out of town.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It mattered because it changed him. Carlson's remoteness separated him from people and events. It separated him from the diversity of the real world. You know, when he started his prime-time show on F"}
{"id": "1212878519", "date": "2023-11-14", "guest": "Brian Stelter", "title": "What's next for Fox News now that Rupert Murdoch has stepped down?", "question_index": 35, "text": "I want to get back to the election for a minute. You write that Fox News execs were concerned. What will happen if Trump wins the popular vote but loses in the Electoral College? And Lachlan wrote a memo saying, if that happens, we support the Electoral College vote. That's how we have to play it. But that's not exactly what happened. Trump lost the popular and the Electoral College vote and yet said that he won. Did Fox have a plan in place before the election, knowing that Trump might pull something like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right, he had the resources to up and leave. I do think the protest at his home that night was a big deal. I also think he did exaggerate some elements of it. The police report does not match u"}
{"id": "1212878519", "date": "2023-11-14", "guest": "Brian Stelter", "title": "What's next for Fox News now that Rupert Murdoch has stepped down?", "question_index": 36, "text": "So Jesse Watters replaced Tucker Carlson on the air. What is his show like? How does it compare to Tucker's show?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think I can say that Fox had a coherent plan, but I think what we see in the emails and texts is that Fox's rushing to Trump's defense whenever possible. There are times eventually where it's "}
{"id": "1212878519", "date": "2023-11-14", "guest": "Brian Stelter", "title": "What's next for Fox News now that Rupert Murdoch has stepped down?", "question_index": 37, "text": "Brian Stelter, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would say Watters is more of a mainline Republican. He's not a part of the so-called new right the way that Carlson is. He's not as isolationist, for example, when it comes to U.S. foreign policy to"}
{"id": "1212878519", "date": "2023-11-14", "guest": "Brian Stelter", "title": "What's next for Fox News now that Rupert Murdoch has stepped down?", "question_index": 38, "text": "Brian Stelter's new book about Fox is called \"Network Of Lies.\" After we take a short break, TV critic David Bianculli will review the new series \"The Curse,\" starring Emma Stone and the series' co-creators, Nathan Fielder and Benny Safdie. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks so much."}
{"id": "1213195825", "date": "2023-11-16", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How will China's economic stagnation impact its relations with the U.S.?", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. With the U.S. supporting Ukraine in its war with Russia and Israel in its war against Hamas, it's a particularly hazardous time to risk armed conflict with China. The competitive, contentious relationship between China and the U.S. has been at its lowest point in decades, so it's significant that President Biden and President Xi of China met yesterday. We're going to talk about the results of that meeting and what life is like in China under Xi, who has become increasingly authoritarian. My guest is Evan Osnos, a staff writer for The New Yorker. In his recent New Yorker article, \"China's Age Of Malaise,\" he writes about how China's economic boom has ended, and he considers the question, is a stagnating China more likely to end up at war with the U.S. or less? Osnos examines how President Xi's rule and the country's economic problems are affecting China's relations with the U.S. and countries like Russia and Iran, and how Xi has been controlling the government, the military, the media, pop culture and even aspects of family life. Osnos draws on his recent trip to China. He lived in Beijing and covered China from 2005 to 2013. After moving back to the U.S, he published a book about China that won a National Book Award. Evan Osnos, welcome back to FRESH AIR. It's always a pleasure to have you on the show. I have to say, parenthetically, we've met a lot more times than Biden and Xi have.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1213195825", "date": "2023-11-16", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How will China's economic stagnation impact its relations with the U.S.?", "question_index": 1, "text": "So what do you think is the larger significance of just the fact that Biden and Xi met face-to-face?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, and I'm glad for that. Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "1213195825", "date": "2023-11-16", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How will China's economic stagnation impact its relations with the U.S.?", "question_index": 2, "text": "Of all the topics that they talked about, what do you think is the most significant accomplishment?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that in and of itself is important. I think we sometimes just assume that what's really the difference ultimately of meeting at the high levels or meeting - talking over the phone and so on. But"}
{"id": "1213195825", "date": "2023-11-16", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How will China's economic stagnation impact its relations with the U.S.?", "question_index": 3, "text": "Why were military-to-military communications broken off in the first place?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think there's something very important in resuming military-to-military communication. It probably surprises people to know, in fact, that these two countries, you know, the - arguably the two most "}
{"id": "1213195825", "date": "2023-11-16", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How will China's economic stagnation impact its relations with the U.S.?", "question_index": 4, "text": "I guess an accidental collision of any sort between the two sides, you know, in the military without an open line of communication can lead to a misunderstanding that could lead to armed conflict for no reason.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They ended after Nancy Pelosi visited Taiwan last August. And then this chill really expanded across the full scope of the diplomatic relationship after the spy balloon from China that drifted across "}
{"id": "1213195825", "date": "2023-11-16", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How will China's economic stagnation impact its relations with the U.S.?", "question_index": 5, "text": "They talked about fentanyl. How far did Biden get in convincing Xi to regulate the flow of precursor chemicals, the chemicals that are used to manufacture fentanyl?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's exactly right. I mean, there have been incidents recently when Chinese jets, for instance, have come within 10 feet, which is extraordinarily close to American bombers. And, you know, part of t"}
{"id": "1213195825", "date": "2023-11-16", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How will China's economic stagnation impact its relations with the U.S.?", "question_index": 6, "text": "When Biden said that they must ensure that competition does not veer into conflict, President Xi acknowledged that a conflict would have, quote, \"unbearable consequences.\" But he challenged the idea of a, quote, \"competition,\" saying it cannot solve the problems facing China and the United States. Xi said planet Earth is big enough for the two countries to succeed. That sounded positive to me, but I think you have a different interpretation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He did get an agreement. They said that they would regulate and ultimately shut down some of these pill presses and places that produce these chemicals. But frankly, Terry, we're going to have to see "}
{"id": "1213195825", "date": "2023-11-16", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How will China's economic stagnation impact its relations with the U.S.?", "question_index": 7, "text": "In a forthcoming piece, you wrote that this is a pretty gentle image of - I know Xi's saying that planet Earth is big enough for the two countries to succeed, but it underscored Xi's desire not for a competition, but for America to get out of the way by reducing its role in Taiwan, Ukraine, the South China Sea and the Middle East, and that the U.S. has no intentions of getting out of the way. Why do you interpret Xi's statement that way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is positive on the surface. It's a good thing to imagine the idea that these two countries can coexist. That's certainly the goal. But it also is a pretty revealing indicator of something, which is"}
{"id": "1213195825", "date": "2023-11-16", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How will China's economic stagnation impact its relations with the U.S.?", "question_index": 8, "text": "You know, in terms of Biden being blunt in his talk with President XI, when asked if he still sees Xi as a dictator, Biden responded, well, look, he is. What did you think about when you heard Biden reiterate that Xi is a dictator?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He has said in internal speeches in China that he basically believes that the core of this tension is that the United States will never fully allow China to become a rival power, a near peer in the wo"}
{"id": "1213195825", "date": "2023-11-16", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How will China's economic stagnation impact its relations with the U.S.?", "question_index": 9, "text": "How much progress did they make on climate talks?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was certainly not going to be something that's popular with the Chinese. I think there is a degree to which that moment will probably cloud the consequences of the summit to some degree, but "}
{"id": "1213195825", "date": "2023-11-16", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How will China's economic stagnation impact its relations with the U.S.?", "question_index": 10, "text": "How long have Biden and Xi known each other? What has the relationship been like over the years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's meaningful. Basically, they agreed to say that they will replace fossil fuel production by tripling the role of renewable energy. I don't think this is a game changer, but without these two count"}
{"id": "1213195825", "date": "2023-11-16", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How will China's economic stagnation impact its relations with the U.S.?", "question_index": 11, "text": "Well, Evan, I want to talk with you about your article in The New Yorker, \"China's Age Of Malaise\" and how Xi has become increasingly authoritarian, but first we have to take a short break. So if you're just joining us, my guest is Evan Osnos. He's a staff writer for The New Yorker. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It goes back a long way. It's unusually robust in that way. They first met in 2011, when they were both vice presidents and Biden came to Beijing. I remember I was there at the time, living there, wor"}
{"id": "1213195825", "date": "2023-11-16", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How will China's economic stagnation impact its relations with the U.S.?", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. If you're just joining us, my guest is Evan Osnos, who's been writing about China since 2005. He was based in Beijing from 2005 to 2013 and has continued to write about China. He's a staff writer for The New Yorker. His recent article about China is called \"China's Age Of Malaise,\" and we're going to talk about that now. China and the U.S. are kind of interdependent in a lot of ways. So where does that interdependency still exist in this time of increased separation of China and the U.S.?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It goes back a long way. It's unusually robust in that way. They first met in 2011, when they were both vice presidents and Biden came to Beijing. I remember I was there at the time, living there, wor"}
{"id": "1213195825", "date": "2023-11-16", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How will China's economic stagnation impact its relations with the U.S.?", "question_index": 13, "text": "I want to ask you about China's role in the war in Ukraine. It's been very ambiguous. They're publicly kind of neutral. At the same time, like, Xi has said that his best and closest friend is Vladimir Putin. China and Russia are close allies. So what do you know about what's really going on in China in terms of Xi's thinking about the war in Ukraine?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think this is something that's easy for us to forget these days. I mean, the truth is, even now, with all of the tensions in the relationship, and we're five years into a trade war in which yo"}
{"id": "1213195825", "date": "2023-11-16", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How will China's economic stagnation impact its relations with the U.S.?", "question_index": 14, "text": "And in terms of what China gets out of this, China buys oil from Russia.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right before the invasion of Ukraine, Vladimir Putin and Xi Jinping signed this historic partnership agreement. They - it was really something that they hadn't done before. Historically, Russia and Ch"}
{"id": "1213195825", "date": "2023-11-16", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How will China's economic stagnation impact its relations with the U.S.?", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well, let's take a break here. Let me reintroduce you. My guest is Evan Osnos. He's a staff writer for The New Yorker. His latest article is titled \"China's Age Of Malaise.\" We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. China is buying a huge amount of oil from Russia, which is both important for China's economy - it's very important for Russia's economy - but it also gives China an alternative source o"}
{"id": "1213195825", "date": "2023-11-16", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How will China's economic stagnation impact its relations with the U.S.?", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Evan Osnos, a staff writer for The New Yorker. His latest article is titled \"China's Age Of Malaise,\" and it's based in part on his recent trip to China. He was there in August. The article is about how President Xi Jinping has become increasingly authoritarian. China's economic boom has ended and the economy has slowed. Political leaders and entrepreneurs who Xi sees as a threat have been disappeared. Xi has tightened controls on pop culture and social media. Hundreds of thousands of people have left China, more are trying to leave. Evan Osnos lived in Beijing and reported from China from 2005 to 2013. So now that we've talked about Ukraine, we should talk about a possible war. Taiwan considers itself to be self-governing, China considers Taiwan to be under Chinese rule. Elections are coming up in Taiwan in January. If China decides at any point to attack Taiwan, then - you know, as we said before, you know, China is aligned with Russia and Iran. I don't know what Russia and Iran would do. And the United States, you know, Joe Biden has promised to defend Taiwan if China attacks it. So what could possibly go wrong there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. China is buying a huge amount of oil from Russia, which is both important for China's economy - it's very important for Russia's economy - but it also gives China an alternative source o"}
{"id": "1213195825", "date": "2023-11-16", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How will China's economic stagnation impact its relations with the U.S.?", "question_index": 17, "text": "Xi Jinping has become a very autocratic ruler and has become more autocratic than his predecessors since Tiananmen Square, the crackdown on dissidents in 1989. So what are some of the things he's done to become more autocratic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it does feel as if all of these have become stitched together. But I actually think that Taiwan is in some ways a bit of an issue apart, because it's important to point out that at this point, t"}
{"id": "1213195825", "date": "2023-11-16", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How will China's economic stagnation impact its relations with the U.S.?", "question_index": 18, "text": "For many years, China's policy was the one child policy. Families were allowed to have one child because - why was that? Give us the short version of why they had that policy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, if you take as an example something as simple as where you buy your books in China - I mean, I often will kind of gauge a place and its openness and the vitality of its cultural life by going to"}
{"id": "1213195825", "date": "2023-11-16", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How will China's economic stagnation impact its relations with the U.S.?", "question_index": 19, "text": "And now the government has reversed that policy. There are government incentives to marry early and to have many children or, you know, at least more than one. So what's behind that reversal? And this is under President Xi.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was basically because they looked out at the future and they said, well, we're a huge country and we're not going to be able to feed everybody if everybody continues to have a lot of kids. This was"}
{"id": "1213195825", "date": "2023-11-16", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How will China's economic stagnation impact its relations with the U.S.?", "question_index": 20, "text": "Well, it sounds like young people don't want to have a lot of children. They don't even necessarily want to get married.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. I mean, this is an example of the law of unintended consequences, that in some ways, after Mao Zedong imposed this rule that restricted most people to one child, they actually - it had t"}
{"id": "1213195825", "date": "2023-11-16", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How will China's economic stagnation impact its relations with the U.S.?", "question_index": 21, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Evan Osnos. He's a staff writer for The New Yorker. His latest article is titled \"China's Age Of Malaise,\" and it's based in part on his recent trip to China. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. They are - there is a movement in China away from some of the traditional structures and measures of success and achievement. Over the last generation, you know, most people set out to try to fi"}
{"id": "1213195825", "date": "2023-11-16", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How will China's economic stagnation impact its relations with the U.S.?", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Evan Osnos, a staff writer for The New Yorker. His latest article is titled \"China's Age Of Malaise.\" He reported from Beijing and lived in China from 2005 to 2013, and his new article is based in part on his recent trip to China. So there are more limits on social media now and what you can say. Would you describe some of the recent restrictions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. They are - there is a movement in China away from some of the traditional structures and measures of success and achievement. Over the last generation, you know, most people set out to try to fi"}
{"id": "1213195825", "date": "2023-11-16", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How will China's economic stagnation impact its relations with the U.S.?", "question_index": 23, "text": "Well, because of the restrictions and because of the authoritarian government, some companies are moving to other places, including Singapore. And the owners of TikTok bought property in Singapore. So what's happening in Singapore - like, what companies, what people are moving to Singapore, where there might be more freedom, though Singapore isn't exactly a democracy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's a whole realm of things you're not allowed to talk about. At one point, there was an interesting leak from a social media company of all of the nicknames for Xi Jinping that they ban, that the"}
{"id": "1213195825", "date": "2023-11-16", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How will China's economic stagnation impact its relations with the U.S.?", "question_index": 24, "text": "You could tell by looking at the streets in China that the economic boom was over. How could you tell?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's a really interesting development that's been going on just below the surface. It's the kind of issue that these Chinese entrepreneurs don't like to talk about very publicly because they don"}
{"id": "1213195825", "date": "2023-11-16", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How will China's economic stagnation impact its relations with the U.S.?", "question_index": 25, "text": "And you also write about how there's fewer cafes and clubs. Why is that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's subtle, but if you know what it was before, it's absolutely unmistakable. There was a period when there were constantly new skyscrapers going up in China. I mean, that was - they were actually so"}
{"id": "1213195825", "date": "2023-11-16", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How will China's economic stagnation impact its relations with the U.S.?", "question_index": 26, "text": "Well, let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Evan Osnos, a staff writer for The New Yorker. His latest article is titled \"China's Age Of Malaise.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's been really important. And I think it gets to this larger sense of slow down. I mean, oftentimes the stagnation is not economic so much as it is cultural and aesthetic and personal. I mean, peo"}
{"id": "1213195825", "date": "2023-11-16", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How will China's economic stagnation impact its relations with the U.S.?", "question_index": 27, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Evan Osnos, a staff writer for The New Yorker. His latest article is titled \"China's Age Of Malaise,\" and it's based in part on his recent trip to China. He reported from China from 2005 to 2013 and has written extensively about it. You know, in terms of popular culture in China, comics now have to get their jokes approved by the government. And governments, especially authoritarian governments, are famous for their sense of humor. What - has comedy become really bland?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's been really important. And I think it gets to this larger sense of slow down. I mean, oftentimes the stagnation is not economic so much as it is cultural and aesthetic and personal. I mean, peo"}
{"id": "1213195825", "date": "2023-11-16", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How will China's economic stagnation impact its relations with the U.S.?", "question_index": 28, "text": "So we have new restrictions on sounds like just about everything, you know, on social media, on pop culture, on businesses, you know, entrepreneurs are being punished. And Xi has his own loyalists in the military and in government. And people who aren't loyal - they're being punished, too. So there must be a lot of disillusionment with Xi and his government now in China. And add to that the COVID restrictions, which were so harsh, people were confined to their homes for two months at a time. And then when the pandemic was perceived to be largely over, then, like - what? - a million people caught COVID in the period of just a few weeks because it spread that rapidly after all the lockdowns.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It has. Actually, I was talking to a comedian not too long ago in China who said that this process of submitting your jokes in advance has become, in itself, a sort of farce, because you have to make "}
{"id": "1213195825", "date": "2023-11-16", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How will China's economic stagnation impact its relations with the U.S.?", "question_index": 29, "text": "So to sum up, how worried are you about the future of the world right now? - because, like, you're - included in the subtitle of your article about China's current malaise is, like, what does this mean for the world? The world isn't in great shape right now. So, you know, between Ukraine and the Middle East and Taiwan, like, what's your threat level at?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. This is - the dynamic that you're capturing I think is really important, which is that - I think all of us who went through the COVID pandemic in whatever countries we were in - we experienced a"}
{"id": "1213195825", "date": "2023-11-16", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How will China's economic stagnation impact its relations with the U.S.?", "question_index": 30, "text": "Evan Osnos, thank you so much for coming back to FRESH AIR. It's always great to talk with you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'd be lying if I told you that I wasn't worried, Terry. I think anybody who's paying attention to what's happening feels this tremendous sense of fragility and this idea that some of the things"}
{"id": "1213195825", "date": "2023-11-16", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How will China's economic stagnation impact its relations with the U.S.?", "question_index": 31, "text": "Evan Osnos is a staff writer for The New Yorker, where his article \"China's Age Of Malaise\" is published. If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, like this week's interviews with Brian Stelter, whose new book is about Fox News, or with Courtney B. Vance and psychologist Dr. Robin Smith about the urgent mental health crisis among Black men and boys, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. And if you want to read about what's happening behind the scenes at FRESH AIR, subscribe to our free newsletter. You'll find a link at whyy.org/freshair.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, you're welcome, Terry. Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "1213195825", "date": "2023-11-16", "guest": "Evan Osnos", "title": "How will China's economic stagnation impact its relations with the U.S.?", "question_index": 32, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Ann Marie Baldonado, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, you're welcome, Terry. Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 0, "text": "The classic Jewish mother in a lot of American fiction and movies is the critical, domineering, overprotective mother. The mother in your movie is critical, but she doesn't care quite enough about the son. So she's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Beatrice Henderson) Oh, honey, everything comes from a cow. Everything."}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 1, "text": "...Not domineering and overprotective. The...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 2, "text": "...Son almost wishes that she was.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, nor..."}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 3, "text": "So is your mother really critical?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Nor do I think this is a Jewish mother, because the Jewish mother is too - has, you know, such a cliche of exactly what you say, and I don't - I wasn't out to make it a particular religion. I t"}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she's, you know, loving, but she's - it's - and I wouldn't even call it critical. My mother has always sort of been puzzled why I'm who I am. And I think one of the reasons is, is that if my mot"}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Now there's some very funny things about food in the new movie. You know, your character comes back to the mother's house, and she saves a lot of food in the freezer where...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I would say, well, he liked it, but did you like it? No, of course, honey, but Johnny liked it? You know, so that was going to be my autobiography title - \"What Did Johnny Think?\""}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 6, "text": "...It's guaranteed to taste really bad after a while.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 7, "text": "And she buys all those horrible store brands. In the movie, it's sweet...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 8, "text": "...Teeth sherbet.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Oh, it's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I made that up..."}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 10, "text": "...Perfect, though.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...But obviously, there..."}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 11, "text": "So was this a problem at your home, too...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 12, "text": "...That your mother would...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes that's..."}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 13, "text": "...Buy all the cheap brands?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That part..."}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Did you ever go...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That part is - my mother could - we could afford anything, but she just didn't believe that there was, you know, like Debbie says in the movie, honey, there's no difference. The man in the store told "}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 15, "text": "...To the - yeah, go ahead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We had..."}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm saying, I mean, we had brands of food I never - they looked like the real thing. I mean, like, the cookies had, you know, they were black with white in the middle, but it was like, you know, Soreo"}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 17, "text": "I love the protective ice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, you know, there's a thing that I love in this movie. This sherbet that's been in the freezer for about 16 years and you can't even see it anymore. And I say to, you know, my mother in the movie, "}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 18, "text": "The roles that you write for yourself are often characters that are very self-absorbed and very selfish in their own way and don't see their own flaws.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I said, you've named this stuff? I can't believe it. But my mother still, like, to this day, my mother has this Neapolitan ice cream. There aren't three colors anymore. It's just one color it's blende"}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 19, "text": "That's -", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a new twist."}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 20, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a new twist."}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Well, \"Modern Romance,\" it's true.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm just trying to think if I agree with that. I don't know if that's necessarily true about being selfish. I think they're..."}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, \"Modern Romance\" - well, \"Modern Romance\" wasn't so much selfish. I mean, there's a guy trapped in a relationship that, you know, that he shouldn't be in, and he's desperately trying to hang on fo"}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 23, "text": "I guess what I'm trying to ask is do you want to play characters that are completely lovable or that, you know, you love them, you identify with them, but then you also stand back a little bit and say, but wait a minute, he's going too far with this, or he's too self-absorbed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And gets panicked, you know?"}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Yeah, yeah, yeah. When you're creating the character.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What - were you - are you asking me do I want to?"}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'll tell you, you know, I think it's very dangerous if you start to write characters where you say, I want to be loved. I think the thing that you do is you tell a story, and when you create a story,"}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 26, "text": "In some of your early work as a comic, back when you were doing stand-up, and in some of your really early movie work, you made fun of a certain showbiz kind of comedy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I sort of, like, you know, figure out what story I want to tell. And then the characters need to, you know, be appropriate to the story."}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 27, "text": "And I'm wondering - you must have grown up with that. Your father was a comic.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 28, "text": "How did your father, who I assume was Jewish - his name was Einstein - how did he get to play a Greek dialect comic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, my father died when I was 11, but I still, you know, remember that it was OK to, you know, be funny. And I watched somebody do it for a living, even though he pretty much was out of it by "}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 29, "text": "When you started doing comedy, your comedy was - it came out of who you were as a real person.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he played - you know, during the '40s when he was on the air, I think being an immigrant coming to America was a very popular thing. And I don't know how exactly or where - I know he was born in"}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 30, "text": "And a lot of your monologues were pretty autobiographical.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 31, "text": "Right, so this more autobiographical approach was really different from where your father was coming from...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, I never told jokes. I don't think I've ever told a joke in my life. I never, you know..."}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 32, "text": "...Where he didn't even play his own ethnic group, let alone talk about his life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 33, "text": "Did you feel like you had any models for what you wanted to do, a more autobiographical approach?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely, and that's exactly right. Yeah."}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 34, "text": "Is that what you were trying for, to do very little and have it be very effective?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I'll tell you, when I was very young, I remember watching Jack Benny and thinking that this man figured it all out. Jack Benny really never told jokes. I mean, look what he did, he would stare and"}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 35, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Or just sort of - you know, those old guys used to play themselves. This is not a new thing. Jerry Seinfeld and stuff, this is one of the original things that radio and television did. George Burns an"}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 36, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the first thing I ever did was a ventriloquist act called Danny and Dave, which was basically the world's worst ventriloquist. He was introduced as, you know, a real ventriloquist. And his mouth"}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 37, "text": "Well, it was kind of like the whole world was on your mother's wavelength and not quite getting the jokes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So - and this happened in my first movie. When I did \"Real Life,\" I played a character called Albert Brooks. And, you know, here was a man named Albert Brooks who set up this whole thing as a realisti"}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 38, "text": "So you went from one scene to another. You went from the TV variety shows, which had an older audience, and then you went to opening for rock acts like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes - not the whole world but a lot of people. And you're exactly right. Yeah."}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 39, "text": "...Neil Diamond and Richie Havens. So it's one extreme to another.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 40, "text": "Why not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. I did - you know, I sort of had a whole reversal thing because, like, everybody else does clubs and then gets on television. I did about five years of television before I ever performed in fr"}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 41, "text": "And you were going to come on and talk about things that made you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was way before comedy was in or even, you know, popular in any regard. You know, comedy sort of didn't start to get this popularity until, I guess, with the '80s. And let's face it. These peo"}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 42, "text": "...Neurotic and insecure. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Stop right there."}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 43, "text": "Right. Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Stop. It doesn't matter. It's called talk about."}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 44, "text": "Oh, geez.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's not the human voice they were waiting to hear. They wanted to hear these amplifiers turned up to a billion decibels. They wanted to be hurt, you know? So I - oh, gee. I had some very rough experi"}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 45, "text": "Since we were talking about some of your early comedy, I thought we'd play something from your first comedy album, which has been reissued on Rhino Records.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. Let's get back to Terry's 1996 interview with comedian, actor, director and screenwriter Albert Brooks. He's the subject of a new documentary on HBO. When we left "}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 46, "text": "And I think my...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 47, "text": "Well, I think my favorite sketch on here is \"Rewriting The National Anthem.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What are you going to play?"}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 48, "text": "And the premise of this is that nobody goes around singing the national anthem anymore, so we should hold open auditions and find a new national anthem.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh."}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 49, "text": "What inspired the sketch?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 50, "text": "Why don't we hear it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the national anthem is, you know, one of the silliest songs ever written. I don't think there's an American alive who knows the words. And I just sort of figured that it would - like the introdu"}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 51, "text": "That's Albert Brooks from his first comedy record, \"Comedy Minus One,\" which has been reissued on Rhino Records. Now, hearing all those really inspired anthem satires that you came up with made me think that you must actually know something about music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Bob) I'll spell it - A, M, E, R, I, C, A. (As character) Get off the stage. (As Bob) Thank you."}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 52, "text": "That's you at the piano, isn't it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Well, I..."}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 53, "text": "How did you decide to go from comedy to movies?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And, yes, I play piano. And I think that music and - well, first of all, music and comedy are very, very similar because, you know, there's that word timing. And I think that in essence, comedy i"}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 54, "text": "Yes, and your role in -", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, really, all I ever wanted to be was an actor. I never wanted to do comedy. I went to Carnegie Mellon and I studied acting, and at 19 years old, I came back to Los Angeles and saw that I couldn't"}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 55, "text": "what a great film to get started in.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, really, all I ever wanted to be was an actor. I never wanted to do comedy. I went to Carnegie Mellon and I studied acting, and at 19 years old, I came back to Los Angeles and saw that I couldn't"}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 56, "text": "Did you realize how lucky you were when you got that role?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wow, isn't it?"}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 57, "text": "Well, in \"Taxi Driver,\" you play a campaign worker who...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". No, I mean, I realized that Marty Scorsese was, you know, a great guy to have a chance to - yes. I was able to figure that out, but I never - who would ever know that that would turn out to be, you "}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 58, "text": "...On the presidential campaign who works with Cybill Shepherd. And so...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 59, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And, you know..."}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 60, "text": "Oh. Tell it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's a funny story with that..."}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 61, "text": "There's a scene where Robert De Niro as Travis Bickle, the taxi driver, is hanging around the campaign headquarters, you know, just eyeing Cybill Shepherd, who he really wants to pick up. And he comes in and tries to talk with her, and your character chases him out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Because, well, Paul Schrader - that part wasn't written. So Marty Scorsese hired me and said, you know, maybe you could figure out that part, and, you know, we could figure out the lines and everyt"}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 62, "text": "Did you come up with a way to do that and the lines to use and stuff?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 63, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, De Niro did something interesting because in those days, he was, you know, very method, way before the restaurants, you know? He wouldn't ever even talk to me. So that moment of uncomfortablenes"}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 64, "text": "Well, tell us how you and your character of - as this very kind of, like, middle-class campaign worker who isn't a very physical person, deals with De Niro, who's this really threatening, marginal figure, shadowy figure walking in.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, he probably just - he just didn't want to talk to me. But seriously, he wouldn't let me know him. I was trying to make conversation and say, so, you having, you know, fun doing this? And he "}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 65, "text": "Now, after your role in \"Taxi Driver,\" which direction did you want to head in - the role of playing actors in - of being an actor in other people's movies, playing characters who weren't necessarily like you at all or going in the direction of making your own movies and writing characters that were very close to your personality and directing it yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ")"}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 66, "text": "There's a line that you're really quite famous for from \"Broadcast News\" in which your character says, wouldn't this be a wonderful world if insecurity and desperation made us more attractive? Did you write that line?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think if I was - if I think if offers started to come in six a week, I probably would have just pursued acting only. I mean, I still - you know, I love to do that. But they didn't. So it forced me i"}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 67, "text": "It seems like you should have written it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Jim Brooks wrote that line."}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 68, "text": "Well...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 69, "text": "Right. Right. Did that ring true to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm not taking credit for it."}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 70, "text": "Right, right, right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, not really. I mean, I understand what you're saying. But, you know, I don't know. I don't feel that that's me necessarily, you know? I play these characters. I'll tell you something. I once "}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 71, "text": "But there must be a reason, though, why you gravitate toward playing or writing characters who are somehow motivated by their neurosis.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. I know all these things aren't - this is what I do. It's what I prepare to do. So I don't think that I'm literally those people."}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 72, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, because I think that, you know, I never believed John Wayne. I just think that movies are so fake, and I just - listen. If an alien landed on Earth and went to our cinema, boy, wouldn't they be "}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 73, "text": "In several of your movies, your characters have been divorced, or the relationship gets really rocky. Do you ever wish that you were married with children? Is that something you've wanted and haven't been able to get? Or is that something you never quite saw for yourself anyways?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I just - you don't need me to do that. There's enough people to do that. So I just sort of, you know, am anti-that. And anti-that are people who's - who are exposed, who are vulnerable and maybe, "}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 74, "text": "Good.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I have somebody in my life right now."}
{"id": "1213458808", "date": "2023-11-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Albert Brooks finds humor in everyday life: 'I never told jokes'", "question_index": 75, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And if things go the way I hope it will go, that all finally might happen. So, you know, talk to me in a year. I just - you know, here's the thing, I never wanted to do this wrong. I know one thing ab"}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. I hope you're enjoying this Thanksgiving Day. For the holiday, we're going to feature one of my favorite recent FRESH AIR episodes. In August, Jason Moran, a terrific musician and composer, joined us at the piano. The first time I interviewed him in 2005, when Moran was 30, I quoted our jazz critic, Kevin Whitehead, who called Moran \"one of those rare up-and-comers who makes you optimistic for the future of jazz.\" Moran is no longer an up-and-comer, and he certainly fulfilled his promise. He's making exciting recordings that draw on the early roots of jazz, as well as the avant-garde. He's the Kennedy Center artistic director for jazz, and he curated the permanent exhibition in the new Louis Armstrong Center in Queens, N.Y., which is across the street from Armstrong's preserved home. Moran also teaches at the New England Conservatory of Music. He composes music and has also put his own spin on the works of early jazz pianists and composers, including Fats Waller and James P. Johnson. He has a recent album that's a tribute to James Reese Europe, an important but little-remembered figure in jazz history. In the early 1900s, Europe led his own band and founded the Clef Club, which functioned like a union for Black musicians. He was the music director for the then-famous dance duo Vernon and Irene Castle. In World War I, Europe joined the Army and fought with the 369th Regiment of the infantry known as the Harlem Hellfighters. He also led a regiment band that combined military music and syncopation, creating a new sound. Jason Moran's album \"From The Dance Hall To The Battlefield,\" features Moran's take on James Reese Europe's compositions and pop music of that time. When we spoke, it was available only on Bandcamp for streaming or download. Now it's also available on CD. Moran joined us from the studio of WNYC in New York.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 1, "text": "Jason, welcome back to the show. It's so exciting to have you at the piano and to have you back.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 2, "text": "Oh, great. So the first thing I want to do is play some music. So first I want to play James Reese Europe from, like, the 19-teens - I think it was, like, the late 19-teens, playing the \"Castle House Rag.\" And the Castle refers to the dance duo Vernon and Irene Castle. So first I want to play some of the recording, and then we'll hear your interpretation of it at the piano. So tell us what you'd like us to listen for in this recording. And I should say, I really love James Reese Europe's music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 3, "text": "All right. Let's hear it. And I want to say to our listeners, it's a very old recording. It's a really early recording, so it's not going to sound like what you're used to, but, you know, try to get past that and just really listen to the music and not to the recording quality.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, in this recording, there's something so raw about the percussion. It's like they're not necessarily playing drums or cymbals. It's like some other kind of contraption from the early 1900s. A"}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 4, "text": "So that was James Reese Europe's band from, like, the late 19-teens, doing his composition, the \"Castle House Rag.\" And Jason Moran's new album is devoted to the music of James Reese Europe. So, Jason, let's hear your interpretation of it. But first, introduce it for us. Tell us what you wanted to do with it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, in this recording, there's something so raw about the percussion. It's like they're not necessarily playing drums or cymbals. It's like some other kind of contraption from the early 1900s. A"}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 5, "text": ". That was great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, like I said before, repetition is so important. I think just for, you know, for all civilizations, we need phrases to repeat. And James has this simple phrase in the right hand - (imit"}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 6, "text": "I love that. Thank you so much. And that's music with his whole band that's on Jason Moran's new album, \"From The Dance Hall To The Battlefield.\" But he's performing this for us at the piano at the studio of WNYC in New York. So where do you see James Reese Europe fitting into the history of jazz? Because, you know, one of the things I love about his music is that the drumming often has, like, a military sound to it, like, the drum rolls...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, like I said before, repetition is so important. I think just for, you know, for all civilizations, we need phrases to repeat. And James has this simple phrase in the right hand - (imit"}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 7, "text": "...And, you know, kind of marching beat.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 8, "text": "And I actually love marches, and I love that kind of drumming. But it's crazy, you know? But it's like that kind of drumming gone a little crazy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 9, "text": "James Reese Europe also founded the Clef Club, which was kind of like a union for Black musicians. Tell us more about it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's kind of what his moniker is as one of these syncopation kings. And I think, I mean, one of the things I had to rethink was, well, what does syncopation mean, and what does s"}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 10, "text": "Did the band play for a lot of, like, white social functions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think he forms this organization because the music of that time is being put everywhere, right? It's on the stages, in these houses, in these theaters. And also, I think what James Reese Europ"}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 11, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, you're right. This is what it is. I mean, there's no DJ back then, so you need the bands, right?"}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, one of the songs that you play on \"From The Dancehall To The Battlefield\" is \"Ballin The Jack,\" which is by a Black composer, Perry Bradford. The song is from 1913, a long time ago. Why did you choose this, and what did you want to do with it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So you need the actual people. And James Reese Europe is, like, go-to. He's like a go-to figure in the community. And he's with other composers of the time, too - Bert Williams, H.T. Burleigh, William"}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 13, "text": "I grew up knowing that song. I know all the lyrics to that song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the song is - \"Ballin The Jack\" is, like, a hit. And if I play it now, people generally come up to me and say, what was that song? I know that song for some reason."}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 14, "text": "Would you play it for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right? It's a dance too, right? And the great thing about a song that's a dance is, you know, it's like the Harlem Shuffle or something. You know, like, it tells you how to do the dance. And, like, I "}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 15, "text": "I really appreciate the way you combine the past and the present...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". (Playing piano)."}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 16, "text": "...The avant garde and the very roots of jazz. How did you start doing that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 17, "text": "So I want you to play another song here. It could even be just a short excerpt of it. There's something called \"Russian Rag,\" which James Reese Europe recorded, and you play it on your new album. And I should mention for anyone who's looking for the album, it's only available on Bandcamp. And we'll talk later about why that's true. Your runs on this, your descending piano runs on this, are, like, so much fun. They're so fantastic.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, you know, I grew up in the '80s. And cut, splice, sample, trigger, you know, drop is very much a part of living in that time and listening to hip-hop music. And so knowing that there's, you kn"}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 18, "text": "And on James Reese Europe's recording of it, I think it's just, like, a clarinet. It's hard to tell because it's so - it's such an early recording. You can't really hear things that clearly. But your piano runs are so much more dramatic than on the recording. But anyways, what do you love about this piece?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 19, "text": "You - would you do it for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, I think you said it. It's drama. I mean, this - when this band - I think this is the first song I heard that made me fall in love with the band - was hearing them play \"Russian Rag.\" The"}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 20, "text": "That was so fantastic.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 21, "text": "How do you practice that? Those runs are so fast and yet so precisely executed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That's - yeah, that's a fun one. And I think hearing them play this, you know, just - I don't know - it kind of raises the blood pressure, and I think good bands do that."}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 22, "text": "Really? Oh, come on. Those are high standards.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 23, "text": "Oh, and I - really? I never - I always think about the fingers and arms, not core. Yeah?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 24, "text": "That is advice Bill Evans never followed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, like, 'cause you need a place - you know, when I watch, like, a person like Cecil Taylor play piano, as much as it is about his arms and his hands, it's really about the waist, the hips, the back "}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 25, "text": "He was always just kind of, like, slumped over the piano.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, like, 'cause you need a place - you know, when I watch, like, a person like Cecil Taylor play piano, as much as it is about his arms and his hands, it's really about the waist, the hips, the back "}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 26, "text": "So I want to ask you another thing about James Reese Europe because it's so relevant to his music. He volunteered for the military during World War I. And he was a lieutenant in the infantry and fought with the Harlem Hellfighters, the 369th Infantry Regiment, led the regiment band. And some of his music refers directly to the war. And do you know why he volunteered? Because this is a period when - let's face it - I mean, Black people had so few rights in America. In the North, it wasn't as bad as the South. But, you know, there was no such thing, really, as equal rights back then.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Spaghetti noodle."}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, there's a lot of - I mean, there's lots of ways to think about when one signs up to dedicate not only their body but their - also their relationship to their family, to decide to join a war "}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 28, "text": "There's a song that he wrote with a lyric by Noble Sissle, who was part of the songwriting team with Eubie Blake, one of the most famous songwriting teams of that period and of the '20s. And so Noble Sissle wrote the lyric. And this is - it's a song called \"On Patrol In No Man's Land.\" And I've never quite heard a song like this. It's all about being on patrol in no man's land, which is the land between the two warring enemies. And remember, this is trench warfare. And so it's all about fighting in - you know, being on patrol in no man's land and, you know, grenades going off and machine guns firing at you and poison gas attacking you - because poison gas was used in World War I - having to put on your gas mask. And, you know, Noble Sissle is singing this on the James Reese Europe recording. And it's a pretty incredible recording. And I think that he actually wrote this in the infirmary, like, in the hospital. And again, I want to say it's a really early recording, so don't be put off by the sound quality. Try to just listen to the music and the lyric.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, people would follow Kendrick, you know, into the battlefield. And James is that important. But I think he sees and wants to try something else. What I've understood him as is that he never s"}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 29, "text": "So that was the James Reese Europe band with Noble Sissle singing. Sissle also wrote the lyric. I don't know. That's a pretty special recording.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) What's the time, 9? All in line. All right, boys, now take it slow. Are you ready, steady? Very good, Eddy. Over the top, let's go. Quiet - sly it or else you'll start a riot. Keep your prop"}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 30, "text": "Yeah. Now, you play something on your tribute album to James Reese Europe called \"All Of No Man's Land Is Ours.\" The song we heard was called \"On Patrol In No Man's Land.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it is."}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 31, "text": "And the one you play is \"All Of No Man's Land Is Ours.\" Now, Noble Sissle, who we just heard sing his own lyric- he also wrote a lyric to this song. The song - the Music was written by James Reese Europe. Would you tell us why you chose to play this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 32, "text": "When you play this on your album, \"From The Dancehall To The Battlefield,\" you don't sing. But I asked you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And I think, for Black soldiers, there was something so clever about Noble Sissle and James Reese Europe and Eubie Blake that they were planning these songs, you know, that allowed for multiple read"}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 33, "text": "I asked you if you would sing the Noble Sissle lyric because it's such an interesting song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And I think, for Black soldiers, there was something so clever about Noble Sissle and James Reese Europe and Eubie Blake that they were planning these songs, you know, that allowed for multiple read"}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 34, "text": "Who's an opera singer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is. And I've had some coaching from my wife."}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 35, "text": "I heard her...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Who's an opera singer..."}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 36, "text": "...In \"Porgy And Bess...\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And composer."}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 37, "text": "...In Philadelphia.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 38, "text": "I am so proud of myself for asking you to do that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Alicia. (Playing piano). Hello, Central? Hello. Hurry, give me 403. Hello, Mary. Hello, dear. Yeah, this is me. Just landed at the pier and found the telephone. We've been parted for a year"}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 39, "text": "That was lovely. That was really so good. And the fact that you whistled was a bonus.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Alicia. (Playing piano). Hello, Central? Hello. Hurry, give me 403. Hello, Mary. Hello, dear. Yeah, this is me. Just landed at the pier and found the telephone. We've been parted for a year"}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 40, "text": "So let's talk about you. You started off with classical music when you were, like, about 6 years old or something. You started studying the piano through the Suzuki method, which was a method for teaching young children to play classical music. And then you took classical lessons after that, and then you heard Thelonious Monk playing \"'Round Midnight.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They - you know, I think James Reese Europe and all of them understand that when you present music on stage, it's not simply the sound. It's also the drama, the comedy, the tragedy. And all of those e"}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 41, "text": "And you've said in the past that that inspired you to play jazz. Can you play some of \"'Round Midnight\" for us and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 42, "text": "...Talk us through what you heard in that that changed the course of your life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 43, "text": "You were born in 1975. You grew up with hip-hop. So you were studying classical music, trying to figure out the secrets to Thelonious Monk and also listening to a lot of hip-hop. So how does hip-hop figure into your music as a composer and player?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just nothing sounds like that. And that's the intro - you know? - and then it gets to one of the most incredible melodies. (Playing piano). I mean, my goodness, when I heard it the first time in my pa"}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 44, "text": "Now, I've mentioned on the show today that your new album, your tribute to James Reese Europe, \"From The Dancehall To The Battlefield,\" is available only on Bandcamp for streaming or download. And the streaming is free. And download you have to pay. You started your career on Blue Note Records. This was, like, nearly 20 years ago, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I mean, hip-hop is everything to me. You know, a lot of - some musicians, they say, oh, I wish I could have been there in the 1960s when Ornette Coleman came to New York. And I thought, OK, you kn"}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 45, "text": "Or more than that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 46, "text": "And, you know, Blue Note was a major label, and this was before streaming. So people actually - you want to hear music, you had to buy the record. That's no longer the world we live in. So you no longer - you have your own record label. But this new album - you didn't even bother to cut a record. It's just streaming or downloadable.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 47, "text": "And so talk to me a little bit about where you think you are and we are in terms of recorded music and fair pay for musicians...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 48, "text": "...To hear their work. I'm - I love, as a listener, listening for free. However...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 49, "text": "...It's at the stake of the musicians.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "However..."}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 50, "text": "One of your projects now - I guess you just finished it - you did the permanent exhibition at the new Louis Armstrong - it's kind of like a museum, a new museum right across the street from where he used to live, which is preserved. I think it's a historical site now, isn't it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is. And it - you know, and artists spend dollars to make this. You pay for everybody to come record. You pay to be in the studio. You pay to have it recorded and mixed and mastered. And I think the"}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 51, "text": "How did Armstrong influence your playing or composing? And also, how did Earl Hines, his early pianist...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it is."}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 52, "text": "...Influence you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 53, "text": "Wow, thank you for doing that. So I would love to end with some music. And what I often do when I have a musician on our show who's performing, I ask them to do a song that we would be surprised they like and to tell us why they actually love that song and play it for us. Would you be willing to do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course. I mean, Armstrong is, like, quintessential to thinking about jazz phrasing, you know, or phrasing. And - whether it's at his trumpet, or it's in how he scats or how he delivers a lyric. And"}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 54, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 55, "text": "That was beautiful.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know? And there's something about the way Louis Armstrong kind of sang that song. He sang two versions of it. And the second version is more kind of, like - he addresses, like, there's a little bi"}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 56, "text": "And you do find the reflection and a certain sadness or sense of loss in it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 57, "text": "Well, I just want to say, I'm in awe of you. I think you're remarkable. I'm so grateful to you for doing our show today.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And for me, when I play it, I feel like, can I just sink inside the song and fold the song over me? And can't I be the polar bear on the iceberg, floating out to sea, you know, not really sure about"}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 58, "text": "My interview with Jason Moran was recorded in August. His album paying tribute to James Reese Europe is called \"From The Dancehall To The Battlefield.\" It's available for streaming and download on Bandcamp and is now also available on CD. He was at the studio of public radio station WNYC in New York. Our thanks to recording engineer Irene Trudel.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you also for, you know, making this space. I cherish it. Thank you."}
{"id": "1214463530", "date": "2023-11-23", "guest": "Jason Moran", "title": "Pianist Jason Moran reaches for 'the drama, the comedy and the tragedy' of music", "question_index": 59, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Ann Marie Baldonado, Therese Madden, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you also for, you know, making this space. I cherish it. Thank you."}
{"id": "1215590948", "date": "2023-11-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering First Lady Rosalynn Carter", "question_index": 0, "text": "Is there any unofficial job description that exists for first ladies, any guide that exists...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Former first lady Rosalynn Carter will be laid to rest tomorrow in Georgia. She died last week at the age of 96, two days after it was announced that she had entered hospice care. A"}
{"id": "1215590948", "date": "2023-11-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering First Lady Rosalynn Carter", "question_index": 1, "text": "...On paper anywhere?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "1215590948", "date": "2023-11-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering First Lady Rosalynn Carter", "question_index": 2, "text": "How did you know what was expected of you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "1215590948", "date": "2023-11-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering First Lady Rosalynn Carter", "question_index": 3, "text": "How did you choose your priorities in the White House?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I really didn't know what I could do when I got to the White House. Jimmy had been governor, and I had worked on projects that I was interested in and had had to learn a lot of things the hard w"}
{"id": "1215590948", "date": "2023-11-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering First Lady Rosalynn Carter", "question_index": 4, "text": "You were sometimes represented as being the power behind him who was very influential. What did you think of that press coverage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had always - for many years, not always, but for many years worked on mental health issues ever since Jimmy was governor. And I became interested in that in traveling around the state in the c"}
{"id": "1215590948", "date": "2023-11-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering First Lady Rosalynn Carter", "question_index": 5, "text": "Were you criticized at all by cabinet members who felt uncomfortable that the president's wife was sitting in on the meetings?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, some of it was ridiculous. People who said that I was the - made the decisions and stuff, well, just didn't know Jimmy Carter. He is a very strong person. And - but I did go to cabinet meetings."}
{"id": "1215590948", "date": "2023-11-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering First Lady Rosalynn Carter", "question_index": 6, "text": "What about from the public or the press - again, the we-didn't-elect-you syndrome? What are you doing there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Never."}
{"id": "1215590948", "date": "2023-11-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering First Lady Rosalynn Carter", "question_index": 7, "text": "You've described yourself as a political partner with your husband, Jimmy Carter. Did you have to work hard to achieve that partnership?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, as I said, I learned very early that I was going to be criticized. Even if I had stayed in the White House and poured tea for four years, I would have been criticized. So why not do - I don't kn"}
{"id": "1215590948", "date": "2023-11-28", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering First Lady Rosalynn Carter", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, Rosalynn Carter, I want to thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It just kind of developed from being in the Navy and learning to take care of things while he was gone and then coming home and working and building the peanut business together and then going to the "}
{"id": "1215806967", "date": "2023-11-29", "guest": "Tim Alberta", "title": "How support for Trump is causing a rift in the evangelical church", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. How did evangelicals become Donald Trump's most unflinching advocates? That question plagued Tim Alberta as a journalist and as a self-described son of a white, conservative, Republican pastor in a white, conservative, Republican church in a white, conservative, Republican town. Alberta describes evangelicalism as the most polarizing and the least understood tradition that is also more politically relevant and domestically disruptive than all the others, combined. To answer his own question about why many evangelicals support Trump, Alberta reported from evangelical churches around the country, ranging from megachurches to half-filled, small churches and the church he grew up in in a suburb of Detroit. He also reported from Christian colleges and religious advocacy organizations. He writes about how Trump has polarized the church in his new book, \"The Kingdom, The Power, And The Glory: American Evangelicals In An Age Of Extremism.\" Alberta is a staff writer for The Atlantic and former chief political correspondent for Politico. His previous book is the bestseller \"American Carnage: On The Front Lines Of The Republican Civil War And The Rise Of President Trump.\" Tim Alberta, welcome to FRESH AIR. I'd like you to describe the split you're seeing now among evangelicals.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1215806967", "date": "2023-11-29", "guest": "Tim Alberta", "title": "How support for Trump is causing a rift in the evangelical church", "question_index": 1, "text": "Does Christian nationalism figure into this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Well, I think what we've seen in the past maybe five or six years, Terry, is sort of the bubbling over what had been a low-simmering crisis in the American evangelical church for a couple of gen"}
{"id": "1215806967", "date": "2023-11-29", "guest": "Tim Alberta", "title": "How support for Trump is causing a rift in the evangelical church", "question_index": 2, "text": "And this goes along with some - what some church leaders told you, which is that some of the people in their congregations see Trump almost on a level with God. Trump has become a cult-like figure, and people almost worship him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course it does. Yes. And I would say that it figures into it now more than it ever has simply because, you know, one of the great distinctions I try to draw in the book is how, you know, 40, 50 yea"}
{"id": "1215806967", "date": "2023-11-29", "guest": "Tim Alberta", "title": "How support for Trump is causing a rift in the evangelical church", "question_index": 3, "text": "You saw that split within your own church. You saw people within the church move to the far right and become more militant and more angry, more extreme. And you grew up in the church because your father was the pastor of a church that went from hundreds of people to thousands of people. It was a church in Brighton, a suburb of Detroit. It was white. It was Republican. And my impression was fairly affluent? Not rich, but affluent?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They - he has, and they do. And of course, on its face, this makes no sense whatsoever, because here is the thrice-married, casino-owning Manhattan playboy, right? We all know the story. We know that "}
{"id": "1215806967", "date": "2023-11-29", "guest": "Tim Alberta", "title": "How support for Trump is causing a rift in the evangelical church", "question_index": 4, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. Yeah."}
{"id": "1215806967", "date": "2023-11-29", "guest": "Tim Alberta", "title": "How support for Trump is causing a rift in the evangelical church", "question_index": 5, "text": "And you literally grew up in the church because you spent your time off from school, you know, studying in the church, playing in, like, storage rooms of the church. So describe what you saw in the church in which your father was the pastor - the split that you saw emerging.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "1215806967", "date": "2023-11-29", "guest": "Tim Alberta", "title": "How support for Trump is causing a rift in the evangelical church", "question_index": 6, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is journalist Tim Alberta, author of the new book \"The Kingdom, The Power, And The Glory: American Evangelicals In An Age Of Extremism.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, I can't emphasize this point enough. You know, my mother was on staff at the church, as well, and I was the youngest sibling. And so I - my entire life was inside the church. Physicall"}
{"id": "1215806967", "date": "2023-11-29", "guest": "Tim Alberta", "title": "How support for Trump is causing a rift in the evangelical church", "question_index": 7, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Tim Alberta, author of the new book \"The Kingdom, The Power, And The Glory: American Evangelicals In An Age Of Extremism.\" His previous book was the bestseller \"American Carnage: On The Front Lines Of The Republican Civil War And The Rise Of President Trump.\" He's a staff writer for The Atlantic. In 2019, you were on a book tour for your book \"American Carnage: On The Front Lines Of The Republican Civil War And The Rise Of Donald Trump.\" So at the end of your book tour, you're on the Christian Broadcasting Network. Tell us what you were talking about.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, I can't emphasize this point enough. You know, my mother was on staff at the church, as well, and I was the youngest sibling. And so I - my entire life was inside the church. Physicall"}
{"id": "1215806967", "date": "2023-11-29", "guest": "Tim Alberta", "title": "How support for Trump is causing a rift in the evangelical church", "question_index": 8, "text": "Of course, a very upsetting, tragic moment in your life. At the memorial service for him, you got a lot of heat from people who you've known - who you'd known all of your life. Tell us some of the things - well, let me back up and say that Rush Limbaugh started quoting you and assailing you on his radio show. What was he saying about you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Of all places, I am on the set of the Christian Broadcasting Network, and I'm being asked about Trump's relationship with the white evangelical movement. This question - the million-dollar quest"}
{"id": "1215806967", "date": "2023-11-29", "guest": "Tim Alberta", "title": "How support for Trump is causing a rift in the evangelical church", "question_index": 9, "text": "And they're insulting you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. You know, so the book that I had written was in the news. My dad died less than two weeks after that book had come out. And so, you know, Rush Limbaugh was on his show describing some of"}
{"id": "1215806967", "date": "2023-11-29", "guest": "Tim Alberta", "title": "How support for Trump is causing a rift in the evangelical church", "question_index": 10, "text": "And if they saw that in you, the son of their pastor, you, who many of them had known your entire life, that - what about people who they don't know? How easy is it to dehumanize them and just make them into the enemy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They're insulting me. And, you know, as I write in the book, it was clear in that moment that for them, they didn't see a hurting son. They saw a vulnerable adversary."}
{"id": "1215806967", "date": "2023-11-29", "guest": "Tim Alberta", "title": "How support for Trump is causing a rift in the evangelical church", "question_index": 11, "text": "Had your father seen the split in his congregation, and what did he make of it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's a great point. And this is where - listen, you know, Jesus said that the two great commands are to love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and mind and strength and to love your neig"}
{"id": "1215806967", "date": "2023-11-29", "guest": "Tim Alberta", "title": "How support for Trump is causing a rift in the evangelical church", "question_index": 12, "text": "Your father was critical of Trump. He thought he was a narcissist and a liar, not moral. But he voted for him anyway. Do you know why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, it was interesting. I think at some level, he did, because my dad was a really serious theologian. He - you know, he had advanced degrees from the country's top seminaries. He spoke Gr"}
{"id": "1215806967", "date": "2023-11-29", "guest": "Tim Alberta", "title": "How support for Trump is causing a rift in the evangelical church", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Tim Alberta, author of the new book, \"The Kingdom, The Power, And The Glory: American Evangelicals In An Age Of Extremism.\" He's a staff writer for The Atlantic. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think at the end of the day, it was the question of abortion and the fact that you had multiple Supreme Court nominations hanging in the balance. I mean, those were the conversations we had, and the"}
{"id": "1215806967", "date": "2023-11-29", "guest": "Tim Alberta", "title": "How support for Trump is causing a rift in the evangelical church", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Tim Alberta, author of the new book \"The Kingdom, The Power, And The Glory: American Evangelicals In An Age Of Extremism.\" His previous book was the bestseller \"American Carnage: On The Front Lines Of The Republican Civil War And The Rise Of President Trump.\" He's a staff writer for The Atlantic. The new book is about how Donald Trump has polarized the evangelical church. On one end, he's created a cult-like following within the church. On the other end, many pastors and congregants have left their churches over disagreements with Trump and his followers. When you decided you wanted to write about the split in the evangelical church and how that is affecting American politics as well as America's church life, you decided to go back to the church that you grew up in, your father's church in the suburb of Detroit. And the person who had succeeded him as the pastor was the person who had been his associate and was being groomed to take over, eventually, as pastor. His name was Chris Winans, and he was more liberal. He wasn't a liberal, but he was more liberal. What were the problems he started having when he took over?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think at the end of the day, it was the question of abortion and the fact that you had multiple Supreme Court nominations hanging in the balance. I mean, those were the conversations we had, and the"}
{"id": "1215806967", "date": "2023-11-29", "guest": "Tim Alberta", "title": "How support for Trump is causing a rift in the evangelical church", "question_index": 15, "text": "And I'm sure that was very upsetting for him. I'm sure he must have felt that he was failing. Did new people come to take the place of the people who fled?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there was some uneasiness from the beginning when Chris was being groomed as the heir apparent because, you're right, it's not that he was a liberal. But in a deep red, extremely conservative pl"}
{"id": "1215806967", "date": "2023-11-29", "guest": "Tim Alberta", "title": "How support for Trump is causing a rift in the evangelical church", "question_index": 16, "text": "Why did he stay?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not initially. In fact, he described it to me - we were having a lunch just after the January 6 attacks, and he was really at his low point. The church attendance had plummeted. He called it an exodus"}
{"id": "1215806967", "date": "2023-11-29", "guest": "Tim Alberta", "title": "How support for Trump is causing a rift in the evangelical church", "question_index": 17, "text": "So when people did start coming to the church, replacing some of the people who left the church because it wasn't far-right enough, who were the new people? What did they represent?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think he ultimately felt that God had called him to be a part of the solution to this very real problem that both he and I were beginning to identify around that period of time. I think he also felt"}
{"id": "1215806967", "date": "2023-11-29", "guest": "Tim Alberta", "title": "How support for Trump is causing a rift in the evangelical church", "question_index": 18, "text": "Well, let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Tim Alberta, author of the new book \"The Kingdom, The Power, And The Glory: American Evangelicals In An Age Of Extremism.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was interesting. You know, this new pastor, Chris Winans, he really tried to be welcoming and tried to be - he tried to downplay a lot of the fighting and basically just said, look, you know,"}
{"id": "1215806967", "date": "2023-11-29", "guest": "Tim Alberta", "title": "How support for Trump is causing a rift in the evangelical church", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Tim Alberta, author of the new book \"The Kingdom, The Power, And The Glory: American Evangelicals In An Age Of Extremism.\" His previous book was the bestseller \"American Carnage: On The Front Lines Of The Republican Civil War And The Rise Of President Trump.\" He's a staff writer for The Atlantic, former chief political correspondent for Politico. In his new book, he goes to the church in which his father was the pastor and looks at the split among evangelicals in that specific church and travels around the country looking at various churches, talking to various evangelical leaders, ones who are more mainstream and others who are very militant, on the extreme right. So I think it's fair to say that you trace some of this to Jerry Falwell, who was a founder of the Moral Majority. And the Moral Majority is credited as being the evangelical group that helped Ronald Reagan get elected and that brought the evangelicals into the political realm and into a very forceful influence in American politics. So can you talk about that a little bit, the connection that you see?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was interesting. You know, this new pastor, Chris Winans, he really tried to be welcoming and tried to be - he tried to downplay a lot of the fighting and basically just said, look, you know,"}
{"id": "1215806967", "date": "2023-11-29", "guest": "Tim Alberta", "title": "How support for Trump is causing a rift in the evangelical church", "question_index": 20, "text": "But how do you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I think, in many ways, when people ask, well, where does this story begin? I think it starts with Jerry Falwell Sr., and I think it starts with his Moral Majority. I think, perhaps even more to t"}
{"id": "1215806967", "date": "2023-11-29", "guest": "Tim Alberta", "title": "How support for Trump is causing a rift in the evangelical church", "question_index": 21, "text": "Would you say that Ronald Reagan kind of opened the door to evangelicals basically becoming the base of the Republican Party?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I've spoken with a lot of people close to him. I've read some of his correspondences. There is ample evidence to suggest that Falwell and his contemporaries at the time, some of whom spoke to me"}
{"id": "1215806967", "date": "2023-11-29", "guest": "Tim Alberta", "title": "How support for Trump is causing a rift in the evangelical church", "question_index": 22, "text": "Oh, you describe one picture of Jerry Falwell Jr. and Donald Trump, and the background was one of Trump's walls at one of his homes. And it's filled with, like, photos, and some of those photos are, like, Playboy models and other things that should be, like, far outside of what Jerry Falwell Jr. would be endorsing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think in some ways, yes. This kind of shotgun marriage between Jerry Falwell Sr. and his Moral Majority and the Ronald Reagan campaign in 1980 - I think it completely reoriented American politics as"}
{"id": "1215806967", "date": "2023-11-29", "guest": "Tim Alberta", "title": "How support for Trump is causing a rift in the evangelical church", "question_index": 23, "text": "Jimmy Carter was a much more liberal evangelical than the Falwells. But also, that's the interview. The Playboy interview is the interview in which Jimmy Carter confessed that he sometimes had lust in his heart. Not that he acted on it, but, you know, that he had it in his heart. And I think the implication was he felt kind of guilty about it. But, like, Trump's lusted out loud, you know? Like, he's had affairs with Playboy models, and he's talked about, like, sexually harassing women and how cool that is. So that's a contrast, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And the great irony was that it was Jimmy Carter's presidency that really galvanized Jerry Falwell Sr. to get engaged and to mobilize these tens of millions of evangelical voters. And one of the "}
{"id": "1215806967", "date": "2023-11-29", "guest": "Tim Alberta", "title": "How support for Trump is causing a rift in the evangelical church", "question_index": 24, "text": "Do you see parallels between the split in the evangelical church and the split in the Republican Party? Just as many people have left their churches for more open-minded churches, a lot of Republicans who are more from the Republican mainstream have abandoned the party.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's - I'm so glad you're raising that, Terry, because yes, in that Jimmy Carter Playboy interview that I believe he gave in 1976, that was what Falwell and some of his associates at the time seized a"}
{"id": "1215806967", "date": "2023-11-29", "guest": "Tim Alberta", "title": "How support for Trump is causing a rift in the evangelical church", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well, we need to take another break here. So let me reintroduce you. My guest is Tim Alberta, author of the new book, \"The Kingdom, The Power, And The Glory: American Evangelicals In An Age Of Extremism.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely. The parallels are uncanny. I think they start with just this basic fact that, you know, Donald Trump, in many ways, represented the fringe of the party becoming the mainstream. That is"}
{"id": "1215806967", "date": "2023-11-29", "guest": "Tim Alberta", "title": "How support for Trump is causing a rift in the evangelical church", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Tim Alberta, author of the new book, \"The Kingdom, The Power, And The Glory: American Evangelicals In An Age Of Extremism.\" His previous book was the bestseller \"American Carnage: On The Front Lines Of The Republican Civil War And The Rise Of President Trump.\" He's a staff writer for The Atlantic. We've been learning about some of the people Trump would be likely to bring into his administration and to try to appoint as judges if he is reelected. Are any of the people you've been reading about people who you would describe as Christian nationalists?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely. The parallels are uncanny. I think they start with just this basic fact that, you know, Donald Trump, in many ways, represented the fringe of the party becoming the mainstream. That is"}
{"id": "1215806967", "date": "2023-11-29", "guest": "Tim Alberta", "title": "How support for Trump is causing a rift in the evangelical church", "question_index": 27, "text": "We're living in a very difficult, kind of frightening time. There's the war in Ukraine, the war between Israel and Hamas, the tragedies in Israel and in Gaza, divisions in church and politics that are resulting in death threats. In the U.S., we had an insurrection here. What verses in the Bible do you turn to in a time like this to help get you through the difficulties of the era that we're living through?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There is no question that if Trump is reelected, he will surround himself in the West Wing with people who would identify - self-identify as Christian nationalists. And it's not a coincidence that jus"}
{"id": "1215806967", "date": "2023-11-29", "guest": "Tim Alberta", "title": "How support for Trump is causing a rift in the evangelical church", "question_index": 28, "text": "When you're meeting somebody for the first time who doesn't know your reporting and you say that you're a Christian or a Christian evangelical, do you immediately try to qualify that in terms of what your beliefs and politics are so that the person who you're talking to doesn't think you identify with the far right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I am so glad you asked, Terry. I really am. I think I would just cite - single out two, if I could. You know, the first was one of my dad's favorite verses that he talked to us about since we were rea"}
{"id": "1215806967", "date": "2023-11-29", "guest": "Tim Alberta", "title": "How support for Trump is causing a rift in the evangelical church", "question_index": 29, "text": "Tim Alberta, I want to thank you for talking with us. It's been really, really interesting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's interesting. I didn't used to, but I've had to do that more and more. And I've had to do it not only to assure people that I don't identify with the far right, but when I go into evange"}
{"id": "1215806967", "date": "2023-11-29", "guest": "Tim Alberta", "title": "How support for Trump is causing a rift in the evangelical church", "question_index": 30, "text": "Tim Alberta is a staff writer for The Atlantic and author of the new book \"The Kingdom, The Power, And The Glory: American Evangelicals In An Age Of Extremism.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be journalist Ari Berman, who's been covering efforts in the courts to dismantle the Voting Rights Act. He'll talk about the history of the act, which is considered one of the most effective pieces of civil rights legislation ever enacted in our country, and the implications of dismantling it. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me."}
{"id": "1215806967", "date": "2023-11-29", "guest": "Tim Alberta", "title": "How support for Trump is causing a rift in the evangelical church", "question_index": 31, "text": "To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram @nprfreshair. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Ann Marie Baldonado, Therese Madden, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me."}
{"id": "1216089156", "date": "2023-12-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against the U.S. government", "question_index": 0, "text": "Rachel Maddow, welcome back to FRESH AIR. And congratulations on the news that Steven Spielberg optioned your podcast for a movie, which makes perfect sense 'cause it's about World War II and it's about antisemitism.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. Rachel Maddow has a new book titled \"Prequel\" where she explores the little-known story about an ultra-right pro-Nazi movement that plotted to overthrow the U.S. g"}
{"id": "1216089156", "date": "2023-12-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against the U.S. government", "question_index": 1, "text": "Well, I hope they get to pick your brain", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, Terry, thank you so much for having me. It is - even just hearing you say those words - the words Steven Spielberg associated with something that I'm working on, it's very overwhelming. It's hard "}
{"id": "1216089156", "date": "2023-12-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against the U.S. government", "question_index": 2, "text": "for the movie 'cause you know so much. So let's talk about the podcast. It's - I learned so much from it. I found it so remarkable, as I'm sure all your listeners did, that there were sitting congressmen and senators in collusion with an agent from Hitler's Germany, somebody who they knew was an agent from Hitler's Germany. What did Hitler's government want from the congressmen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, Terry, thank you so much for having me. It is - even just hearing you say those words - the words Steven Spielberg associated with something that I'm working on, it's very overwhelming. It's hard "}
{"id": "1216089156", "date": "2023-12-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against the U.S. government", "question_index": 3, "text": "Did I overstate it when I said that the members of Congress who dealt with this German spy knew that he was a spy for Hitler's Germany?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very good question and one of the things that I think is oddly and sort of disturbingly most relevant to what's happened in our world in recent years. What they wanted in most instrumental terms was f"}
{"id": "1216089156", "date": "2023-12-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against the U.S. government", "question_index": 4, "text": "So what are some of the things that this Nazi spy, George Viereck, asked the congresspeople who he was in cahoots with to do, and what did the congressmen get in return?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "George Sylvester Viereck was a very high-profile German agent. There is no way that American members of Congress in the Senate who were dealing with him in World War II didn't know that he was a repre"}
{"id": "1216089156", "date": "2023-12-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against the U.S. government", "question_index": 5, "text": "So some of the congressmen who were colluding with this Nazi propagandist, agent, spy - some of these congressmen were members of the America First Committee. What was the committee?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Congressmen, in many instances, got paid, which is depressing to me, that that may have been part of the motivation for some of what they did. But they - a number of them did get paid. And a number of"}
{"id": "1216089156", "date": "2023-12-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against the U.S. government", "question_index": 6, "text": "And their meetings had Nazi salutes and swastikas and really horrible rhetoric. How did the congressmen participate in the America First Committee? Like, what was their role in the committee?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The America First Committee was the biggest and most influential American political group in the country in the immediate lead-up to World War II. They were very respectable. They were founded by a bu"}
{"id": "1216089156", "date": "2023-12-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against the U.S. government", "question_index": 7, "text": "The leader of the Pontiac, Mich. chapter of the America First Committee was quoted in Life magazine. I think it was 1942. And you mention this in the podcast. And this is what he said. We would like to ban the Jews and emphatically burn them out. The Jews control the White House. The president is a Jew. His wife is a Jewess. And Jews are running Washington and the nation. The president was FDR. To get rid of the Jews, we will have to burn and kill them off. And this was one of the defendants at the sedition trial.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There were mostly speakers. So the America First Committee would do big rallies, the famous ones in Madison Square Garden and places like that in New York City. But they'd have major events all around"}
{"id": "1216089156", "date": "2023-12-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against the U.S. government", "question_index": 8, "text": "So Father Coughlin was a Catholic priest who had the most popular radio show in America, perhaps in the world. And he was extremely antisemitic and used his show as a platform for his antisemitism. So one of the more extreme things he said on the air after Kristallnacht - and this was the night in Germany when mobs attacked stores owned by Jews and shattered the glass in - of the storefronts. And so Coughlin gets on the air, and he said, the Jews had it coming. I mean, this is such, like, a frightening, horrible sign of what the Nazis were up to and a forerunner of what was to come.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. This was Garland Alderman, who was the head of the Pontiac, Mich. chapter of the America First Committee. And certainly, not everybody involved in the America First Committee was that violent in"}
{"id": "1216089156", "date": "2023-12-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against the U.S. government", "question_index": 9, "text": "So Coughlin basically starts this group, the Christian Front. And this is basically, like, an antisemitic militia. Is that fair to say?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The thing that is so upsetting about that moment that you're talking about is that Coughlin, by then, was known to be extremely antisemitic. And Coughlin also had not only the largest radio audience i"}
{"id": "1216089156", "date": "2023-12-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against the U.S. government", "question_index": 10, "text": "J. Edgar Hoover, who was the head of the FBI, charged the Christian Front with plotting widespread terrorist activities. He charged them with sedition, a plot to overthrow the U.S. government by force. And the majority of the people who were indicted were either actively serving in the New York National Guard or they'd served in other branches of the military. So can you elaborate on that and that connection between the Christian Front and the military?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview with Rachel Maddow from last year. Her new book series, \"Prequel,\" is based on her podcast series \"Ultra\" about plots from ultra-right-wing group"}
{"id": "1216089156", "date": "2023-12-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against the U.S. government", "question_index": 11, "text": "So most of the defendants in this Christian Front sedition trial were acquitted, and the rest were let off in a mistrial. So basically, all of them got off. Was there insufficient evidence? Like, what - how did that happen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's another throughline that we can see with the sedition trial of groups like the Oath Keepers. Two senior members of the Oath Keepers were just convicted on seditious conspiracy charges, and others"}
{"id": "1216089156", "date": "2023-12-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against the U.S. government", "question_index": 12, "text": "Yeah. I'm trying to think. Had I not known what happened on January 6 and had I not know more about the lead-up to January 6, would I have thought that plans to storm the Capitol and have an insurrection were fantastical? I might have.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it's such an interesting story. So this is 1940, January 1942. It's before we're in World War II, when Hoover announces the arrests of the 17 members of the Christian Front in New York. It is fron"}
{"id": "1216089156", "date": "2023-12-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against the U.S. government", "question_index": 13, "text": "The sedition trial is complicated because there's basically several trials or several indictments, and it's a little confusing when one set of indictments kind of blends into the other. So let's talk about what's described as the largest sedition trial in American history. Who were the defendants, and what were the charges?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. Let's get back to Terry's interview from last year with Rachel Maddow. Her new book \"Prequel\" is based on her podcast series \"Ultra,\" which is about plots from ult"}
{"id": "1216089156", "date": "2023-12-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against the U.S. government", "question_index": 14, "text": "So you describe the sedition trial as turning into bedlam. There's so many, like, outrageous things that happened. Like, during the period when potential jurors are questioned before they're chosen to be jurors, the defense asks some incredible questions, including things like, are you Jewish, or do you have a relative who is? Do you read Jewish publications? What does Jew mean? What does international bankers mean? What's meant by Mongolian Jews? And do you think Jesus was a Jew? And there were no Jews, no African Americans on the jury, but at least three German Americans. It's amazing that the judge let this kind of questioning happen and that there were no Jews, but there were three German Americans.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So there were a handful of different indictments that were brought. The first prosecutor who was involved was named William Power Maloney, and he brought two subsequent indictments, naming between two"}
{"id": "1216089156", "date": "2023-12-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against the U.S. government", "question_index": 15, "text": "And you say that the defense tried to prevent the trial, tried to postpone the trial, tried to have a mistrial declared, and they kept doing that, like, over and over. The trial came to a - kind of a dramatic conclusion because the judge went home one night after the trial had been going on for months, had dinner and then died in his sleep. So what happened after that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. This is flummoxing in some ways. I mean, defense counsel can propose all sorts of crazy things to be asked to potential jurors, but it's up to the judge to decide what actually gets asked. And f"}
{"id": "1216089156", "date": "2023-12-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against the U.S. government", "question_index": 16, "text": "And they proceeded with the case.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a crazy moment. I mean, the trial never got less chaotic from the very beginning. And you can see it in the newspaper coverage at the time that there's reporters who are planning on being in th"}
{"id": "1216089156", "date": "2023-12-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against the U.S. government", "question_index": 17, "text": "They did not proceed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They did not proceed with the case, which is a remarkable..."}
{"id": "1216089156", "date": "2023-12-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against the U.S. government", "question_index": 18, "text": "So none of the congressmen who were colluding with Hitler's Germany ever got indicted. Is that right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview from last year with Rachel Maddow. She has a new book titled \"Prequel\" about plots from ultra-right-wing groups to overthrow the U.S. government "}
{"id": "1216089156", "date": "2023-12-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against the U.S. government", "question_index": 19, "text": "Yeah, why not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. And it's a good question as to why not."}
{"id": "1216089156", "date": "2023-12-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against the U.S. government", "question_index": 20, "text": "So the legal system never held anybody accountable for this sedition and for the violence that these ultra-right-wing groups were behind, and the congressmen weren't held accountable. Did the people hold the colluders accountable?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, Viereck himself, who was the German agent, was charged. And in his individual trial and, again, in the evidence that was brought forward against him in the sedition trial, the government"}
{"id": "1216089156", "date": "2023-12-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against the U.S. government", "question_index": 21, "text": "And now there are sedition trials pertaining to the January 6 insurrection. And the first sedition trial against leaders of the militia group the Oath Keepers found two leaders guilty of seditious conspiracy. There is another Oath Keepers sedition trial going on now and a sedition trial of leaders of another militia group, the Proud Boys, that's about to start. Do you find it amazing, the parallels between the period you're writing about, the years leading up to World War II, and now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, in almost every instance. And this was a surprise to me and a really interesting part of the research. This, as a prosecution, didn't work. But the Justice Department's investigation was of inter"}
{"id": "1216089156", "date": "2023-12-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against the U.S. government", "question_index": 22, "text": "Rachel, you've basically given up a lot of real estate on MSNBC to pursue long-term projects like \"Ultra.\" So you're only hosting your show one night a week on MSNBC, Monday nights. And you're also doing special coverage, which means you've been on MSNBC probably more than you planned. Did you have to think a really long time before deciding to actually make that really big change in your life? I mean, your show is the flagship show on MSNBC. And this is - for getting - being concerned with what would happen to your staff after you left, 'cause I know that you made a deal with MSNBC that they would continue to have jobs, which is really admirable on your part. I applaud you for doing that. But how hard was it to make the decision that you were going to make a major change in your work life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is a little unnerving. I didn't plan it this way. But we published the first episode of the podcast when opening statements started in the first Oath Keepers sedition trial. And the final episode c"}
{"id": "1216089156", "date": "2023-12-01", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Rachel Maddow uncovers a WWII-era plot against the U.S. government", "question_index": 23, "text": "Rachel Maddow, it's been great to talk with you again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I knew that I needed to make the change for me just in terms of my health. I've had a lot of back trouble over the last five years, and that is something that I've sort of mediated a little bit throug"}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 0, "text": "When I picked up your \"Ultimate Manilow\" record, the greatest hits record, I looked at the songs on the back, and I thought, well, I know that. I know that one. Don't know this one. Don't know this one. But when I played it, I realized that I knew the ones that I didn't think I knew. I just didn't remember them by title.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You know I can't smile without you. I can't smile without you. I can't laugh, and I can't sing. I'm finding it hard to do anything. You see, I feel sad when you're sad. I feel..."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 1, "text": "Well, but that's the thing. I mean, you know, that your songs were everywhere. I mean...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I have insinuated my little self into your brains over the last 20 years."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 2, "text": "...They were on the radio, they were on TV, they were in...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were everywhere."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 3, "text": "...Stores and probably in elevators. I mean, they were just...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 4, "text": "...All over.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I'm sure..."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 5, "text": "Well...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm sure they were in elevators, yes."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 6, "text": "What are some of the most unusual places you've heard your songs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it's true. And, you know, I hadn't even listened to these records. You know, I sing them nightly, but they're not, you know, they don't sound exactly like the old records did. And I actually was -"}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 7, "text": "Well, tell me a karaoke story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Some of the - that's a great question. Some of the most unusual places. Well, you know, well, I must say that, you know, I have heard it in restaurants and - unusual places? I don't know, you know, in"}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, what were you doing there in the first place? Why were you in a...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Was - it was some very bad singer trying to do \"I Write The Songs.\" It was really - I had to leave."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 9, "text": "...Karaoke bar?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't know it..."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Was a karaoke bar. It was a Mexican restaurant and then suddenly..."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 11, "text": "That's really funny. So somebody was singing - what? - \"I Write The Songs,\" did you say?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Somebody got up and sang. I hope they didn't know that I was there."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 12, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"I Write The Songs.\" Yes. It was lovely."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 13, "text": "The funny thing about \"I Write The Songs,\" you know, that people associate that song with you 'cause you recorded it, but you didn't write \"I Write The Song.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, the karaoke part wasn't bad, though. The track that they sing to wasn't bad."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did not. And I knew it was going to get me in trouble as soon as Clive - you know, my hit record experiences all - I give the credit to Clive Davis, who was the president of Arista while I was there"}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 15, "text": "Are you sorry you recorded it or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, and then, you know, I didn't write, \"I Write The Songs,\" but Bruce Johnston of the Beach Boys wrote it, and when I sang it, I knew what he was trying to get to. He was saying the spirit of m"}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 16, "text": "Why don't we hear a little bit of \"I Write The Songs?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no, no, no. I think - over the years, I think people really get a big pleasure out of it."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 17, "text": "That's Barry Manilow, and it's one of his hits that's included on the new CD, \"Ultimate Manilow.\" You did a lot of the arranging on your songs. I mean, before you were even a singer, you were an arranger and music director. Talk a little bit about the kind of production you liked on your records, on your pop records.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I write the songs that make the whole world sing. I write the songs of love and special things. I write the songs that make the young girls cry. I write the songs. I write the songs."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 18, "text": "Now let's talk about your early musical life. Your first instrument was, I think, accordion?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I like emotional productions. I like to take a listener on a trip. I don't like, you know, a lot of the records that I hear are, like, one feeling. They start with a groove, and three minutes later, n"}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 19, "text": "What happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm sorry."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 20, "text": "Oh, you're sorry that it was the accordion? Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I'm sorry that it was the accordion."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 21, "text": "Why do you have...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 22, "text": "...To apologize?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes..."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 23, "text": "Well, the accordion is, like, the hippest instrument now. I don't have to tell you that, you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I'm guilty. Yes. I'm guilty. It was the accordion."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 24, "text": "Not when you played it. The whole \"Lady Of Spain\" bit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not when I played it."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 25, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think every Jewish and Italian boy cannot get out of Brooklyn, N.Y., unless he learns how to play the accordion. There's a guard at the Brooklyn Bridge."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 26, "text": "Did you sing when you played?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I actually entertained my relatives, you know, they just thought it was the greatest thing. It really wasn't the thing that turned my musical motor on, I can tell you. But you're right, there are peop"}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 27, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I never sang. I didn't sing until I started making records. I never really thought of myself as a singer. Singing was for other people to do."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 28, "text": "Now, you've said that your stepfather introduced you to jazz, to music that you really loved.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2002 interview with Barry Manilow. He has a new musical on Broadway titled \"Harmony.\""}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 29, "text": "Tell us about how he introduced you to the music you fell in love with.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 30, "text": "How did you ditch the accordion and start playing piano?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when my mother remarried, we, the three of us, moved into a little apartment still in Williamsburg, Brooklyn. And he brought with him a stack of records that I had never heard of before, records"}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 31, "text": "Now was jazz playing something that you picked up by ear or something that your teacher was actually able to help you with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, he did it. He convinced my mother to buy a spinet piano. And so we got a spinet piano in my little - our little apartment. And they pooled their money together and gave me piano lessons. And"}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 32, "text": "How do you think listening to jazz during your formative years affected your songwriting style?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it was by ear. I think jazz - you can't be taught jazz. You listen to it and then you do your own version of it. But, you know - well, for me at least, I needed to know the rules of music. I neede"}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 33, "text": "Why don't we hear it? And this is Barry Manilow from his latest CD, \"Here At The Mayflower.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, it always pops up. No matter where - what record I make or the song I sing, the influence of jazz and swing is always lurking somewhere underneath every song I write or perform. And on"}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 34, "text": "That's Barry Manilow, one of his new songs from his latest CD, \"Here At The Mayflower.\" Now, you've said that when you were in college, you expected to have a pretty conventional life - get married, get a good job, live in the suburbs. What changed your mind and made you pursue music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Going up. (Singing) Freddie's got the dirt on everybody on the street. Don't know how he does it, but he isn't too discreet. Everybody says it always winds up being true. He's got something on everyon"}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 35, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was coming out of my ears."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 36, "text": "When you first started working professionally, I think it was in more of a supporting role, working - like, you had an act with a woman singer. I think Jeannie was her name.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it just wouldn't leave me alone. I tried everything not to follow this muse that would not leave me alone, you know, because coming from where I come from - you know, a four-floor, six-flight walk"}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 37, "text": "And so you did some arranging for her. You were the pianist. You sang some duets with her. But it was kind of - it sounds from your book like it was a kind of supporting role. Did you see yourself as being, like, a supporting role type of character in music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 38, "text": "Well, your most famous position in a supporting role was as Bette Midler's accompanist and music arranger. And this was in the era when she was playing at the Continental Baths, the gay steam bath in Manhattan. How did you meet Bette Midler?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, if I saw myself at all in music - and, like I said, it was so risky. I never even dreamed about even that. But if I were to imagine myself in the music business at that time, it would have been "}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 39, "text": "What was your role in her act? I mean, did you - were you just quiet at the piano, or did you participate in any of the banter or sing duets?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she was one of the dozens of girl and boy singers that I was accompanying. I had left CBS, and I had begun accompanying singers. And I was making a really healthy living because I'm really a goo"}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 40, "text": "Could you talk a little bit about what it was like to play to an audience in a gay steam bath?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no, no. That - again, you know, I was not up to singing then. That was still - this was still before I began to sing. In the beginning, I was - I just arranged her music, put her act together,"}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 41, "text": "At what point did you think, well, I'm going to be the one by the microphone; I'm going to be the one singing; I'm going to have my own act? What led you to that point?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I remember all my life, raining down as cold as ice - shadows of a man, a face through a window, crying in the night. The night goes into morning, just another day. Happy people pass my way."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 42, "text": "Wait. When you were doing demos, who - what kind of person were you hoping would record your song? Like, who were you looking at?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I was - it felt to me - it still seems to me that I was not in charge of that until way, way into my career. It felt like I was just catching up. I was just keeping up barely because when th"}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 43, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Who were the singers? Andy Williams. Who were the singers that needed - Nancy Wilson, you know, Shirley Bassey, Tom Jones. These - this was the end of the '60s, and those were the kinds of singers tha"}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 44, "text": "Were you the first person to record one of your own songs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I didn't know that. I was still trying to come from that old Tin Pan Alley school where you wrote songs for other people to record. So I - you know, I was just writing songs that seemed like they "}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 45, "text": "Is that one of your commercials?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I was. I guess I was. I was the first person to record one of my own songs, if you don't want to count, State Farm is there."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 46, "text": "Yeah, 'cause you wrote a lot of jingles before you made it as a performer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 47, "text": "Oh, so how does the whole thing go? What's the first line in that, in the State Farm is there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I did."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 48, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) But like a good neighbor..."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 49, "text": "Oh, wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) ...State Farm is there. Yeah."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 50, "text": "Well, let me back up to that. How did you start writing commercials? You know, we've got you going from Bette Midler's music director to recording demos and recording yourself. Where do the commercials fit in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A very talented girl named Lesley Miller recorded that one after I wrote it. And then there was another one called \"I Am Stuck On Band-Aids, And A Band-Aid's Stuck On Me (ph).\" And it was a whole batc"}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 51, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when I was sending my demos out, a commercial agent heard some of these demos, and they thought that I was writing commercially. And they called me and said, do you want to go up for a Dodge com"}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 52, "text": "What about...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're supposed to write for 30 seconds, you know? And - but they liked the melody. And ultimately, as we pared the whole thing down to 30 seconds, I got it. I got the first one I went up for. And the"}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 53, "text": "What about the McDonald's have it your way? Isn't that one yours?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I think they're still playing them."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 54, "text": "Oh, yeah. \"You Deserve A Break Today.\" Right. That was yours, wasn't it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. That - it was, \"You Deserve A Break Today.\""}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 55, "text": "Now, what did you learn about the craft of songwriting from writing commercial jingles?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. I only sang on that one. I was part of the vocal group. I got into the commercial world while I was conducting for Bette. You see, when I started, I stopped accompanying everybody except Bette."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 56, "text": "Now, did you ever come up with a hook for a jingle and think, wait a minute, that's really a song? It's not a jingle. I'm keeping that one for myself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I attended the New York College of Music, and a little while I went to Juilliard. And even though that was pretty good training for my brains, the commercial world, my three years in t"}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 57, "text": "So, like, there were ideas coming to you that you knew were just, like, 30-second ideas.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A lot of them. But, you know, once you start to write 30-second jingles, they really don't want to be much more than 30-second jingles."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 58, "text": "Right. So there's no bridge to \"You Deserve A Break Today\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. They were great hooks, but every time I tried to expand them, they didn't work."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 59, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. They were great hooks, but every time I tried to expand them, they didn't work."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 60, "text": "Let's get back to when you started performing after being more behind the scenes as a music director and writing commercial jingles. Were you self-conscious those first few times when you got up on stage and you were at the front of the stage?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2002 interview with Barry Manilow. He has a new musical on Broadway titled \"Harmony.\""}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 61, "text": "And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would say I was the geek of all time on the stage. I really didn't know what I was doing up there. I can't express how uncomfortable I was walking out on a stage, having the spotlight hit me and me "}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 62, "text": "...What about that experience made you so uncomfortable?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I..."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 63, "text": "What did you think it took to be a good performer or entertainer that you were afraid you might not have?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, like I say, I had never practiced for it, and I had never imagined it. I had never thought about it. All I really ever thought about was making music, not performing music. And so it was a very "}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 64, "text": "What about your arms?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Style, confidence, experience, not being self-conscious. Those were all the things that I, you know, that I didn't have. I was very self-conscious. I didn't know my way around a stage. I didn't know t"}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 65, "text": "Maybe they identified with your self-consciousness.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Or my arms. Forget about my legs. What am I going to - I mean, I would stand there, you know, and I know that I would feel like, you know, naked and vulnerable, and the audiences loved that."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 66, "text": "When you were having all those Top 10 hits - this was the '70s and the '80s - now, all of us who were - who remember then know that - well, most of us were fashion victims of one sort or another during that era, particularly in the '70s...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Maybe they did. But whatever it was, I was very comfortable sitting at the piano singing \"Could Have Been Magic,\" but then, you know, having to talk with them and stand up and, you know, lead a whole "}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 67, "text": "...There were some pretty frightening things that we all wore that we all participated in. As a performer - I think it's even worse for performers, 'cause performers have to wear more extreme versions of whatever...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Were we?"}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 68, "text": "Yeah. Well, here I am, bringing it up again for you. So what are some of your worst fashion memories?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And you're tortured with them for the rest of your life."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 69, "text": "White suits. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I was - I - you know, I looked just like Rod Stewart and Elton John did. You know, we were all wearing - we all looked like idiots back then. You know, I got the..."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 70, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. The glitter and the, you know, bellbottoms and the platform shoes and the puka beads and I - frankly, I looked like Britney Spears back then."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 71, "text": "Oh, exactly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "With my long, blonde hair, really. Before the boob job."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 72, "text": "I was going to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was me."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 73, "text": "...Mention that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 74, "text": "David Rakoff did an interview with you in the Sunday New York Times Magazine...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was me."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 75, "text": "...And you had mentioned that the Smithsonian had asked for your...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 76, "text": "...\"Copacabana\" jacket, which you described...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 77, "text": "Yeah. You described it as being a huge, ruffled, Desi Arnaz \"Babalu\" kind of thing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Really. Isn't that funny?"}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 78, "text": "Well, you said that the Smithsonian asked you for the jacket, you sent it to them, and then they sent it back to you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is. It's - I did it as a joke in 1978, and, you know, I - they - and somebody took a photo of me and, you know, from that moment on, I was sunk. I was just sunk. You know, I did it as a joke, but I"}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 79, "text": "Oh. Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, here's the - the real story is this. I just put my foot in my mouth. They asked me for the jacket. And, you know, it's such a funny jacket. It's a joke. And so when I got it, I was interviewed, "}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 80, "text": "So where is the jacket now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 81, "text": "Now, I have a question for you, and I know you're asked this a lot, but has it bothered you that although you've had this huge success over the years, there's also been people, you know, listeners and some critics who, like, to use the word syrupy to describe your music? And, you know, you've been the butt of jokes in some articles and other places. Is that difficult to handle? Does it bug you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it lives in my offices in Los Angeles. And it's still as silly as it ever was, but now it has a little bit more meaning for me."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 82, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "the little creeps..."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 83, "text": "You're on a long performance tour now. Are you still self-conscious when you're performing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But, you know, the best revenge is, like I say before - like I said before, you know, I continue to get the opportunity to make music, to make the music that I love to make. And so that's really the"}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 84, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not anymore, not anymore. I am a sex god now. And I..."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 85, "text": "Have women ever thrown panties at you and done that whole bit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I accept it. I have accepted the fact that I am a sex God. And..."}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 86, "text": "Where was this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Only once, only once. And I thought maybe she was asking me to take it out to the laundry, you know?"}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 87, "text": "Exactly. Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was in Vegas. Where else would they do that?"}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 88, "text": "Right", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So - but no, they usually throw - they don't throw very much things at me, you know, little soft teddy bears and roses and stuff. It's always very nice. No, I'm very comfortable on the stage these day"}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 89, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So - but no, they usually throw - they don't throw very much things at me, you know, little soft teddy bears and roses and stuff. It's always very nice. No, I'm very comfortable on the stage these day"}
{"id": "1217824491", "date": "2023-12-08", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Barry Manilow reflects on writing songs \u2014 and making the whole world sing", "question_index": 90, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I took acting classes."}
{"id": "1219331411", "date": "2023-12-15", "guest": "Carroll O'Connor", "title": "Remembering Norman Lear, creator of 'All in the Family' and 'The Jeffersons'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Norman Lear, welcome to FRESH AIR. So in your memoir - in your autobiography, you write that the network executives gave you notes asking you not to use the language that we just heard. And I'm going to read a memo that you quote in your autobiography. We ask that homosexual terminology be kept to an absolute minimum, and in particular the word f** not be used at all. Queer should be used most sparingly, and less offensive terms like pansy, sissy, or even fairy should be used instead. A term like regular fella would be preferred to straight. So - but the way you're using it, those words are being used by a character who's obviously representing the wrong way of thinking. I mean, you're obviously not endorsing those kinds of, you know, stereotypes. So how did you get around the network executives who didn't want you to use the language and say the things that you were obviously doing in that clip we just heard?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Archie Bunker) And you Polacks are meatheads."}
{"id": "1219331411", "date": "2023-12-15", "guest": "Carroll O'Connor", "title": "Remembering Norman Lear, creator of 'All in the Family' and 'The Jeffersons'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Having sex. Yes, we can say that", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, basically, I said, you know, if you forced the change, I won't be back. That sounds so much like a big deal. It wasn't, as it played out at the time, a big deal. In the very first show, Archie h"}
{"id": "1219331411", "date": "2023-12-15", "guest": "Carroll O'Connor", "title": "Remembering Norman Lear, creator of 'All in the Family' and 'The Jeffersons'", "question_index": 2, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, basically, I said, you know, if you forced the change, I won't be back. That sounds so much like a big deal. It wasn't, as it played out at the time, a big deal. In the very first show, Archie h"}
{"id": "1219331411", "date": "2023-12-15", "guest": "Carroll O'Connor", "title": "Remembering Norman Lear, creator of 'All in the Family' and 'The Jeffersons'", "question_index": 3, "text": "But this was your first TV show that you created. So if you lost, if you said, you know, I leave if you take that out and you lost that battle, you'd be really out of luck. You needed this show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so, 20 minutes or so before it was to air in New York, I was on the phone with the president of the company saying they were going to put it on, but they were going to cut that line. Well, the sho"}
{"id": "1219331411", "date": "2023-12-15", "guest": "Carroll O'Connor", "title": "Remembering Norman Lear, creator of 'All in the Family' and 'The Jeffersons'", "question_index": 4, "text": "So you write in your autobiography that you gave the character of Archie, the father in \"All In The Family,\" some of your father's characteristics. Which ones? Was your father as racist and homophobic and anti-feminist as Archie Bunker was?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Everybody told me I shouldn't be - I should be turning down the CBS offer anyway since I had a three-picture deal to write, produce and direct and a studio that was telling me, Norman, there's only "}
{"id": "1219331411", "date": "2023-12-15", "guest": "Carroll O'Connor", "title": "Remembering Norman Lear, creator of 'All in the Family' and 'The Jeffersons'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Did your parents fight and bicker a lot?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, we didn't get to those arguments that way. But he was the blusterer. And he had an opinion on everything, knew everything. And he was a bit of a racist, although he would never, ever have thought "}
{"id": "1219331411", "date": "2023-12-15", "guest": "Carroll O'Connor", "title": "Remembering Norman Lear, creator of 'All in the Family' and 'The Jeffersons'", "question_index": 6, "text": "So we talked a little bit about \"All In The Family.\" \"Maude\" is one of the shows that was spun off from it. She was a relative of Edith Bunker, the mother in \"All In The Family.\" Who did you base the character of Maude on? And why don't you describe her for people too young to have watched the series when it was on.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In a film called \"Divorce American Style,\" Dick Van Dyke and Debbie Reynolds playing the parents - as they fought around the kitchen table exactly the way my folks did, I was upstairs. And in the film"}
{"id": "1219331411", "date": "2023-12-15", "guest": "Carroll O'Connor", "title": "Remembering Norman Lear, creator of 'All in the Family' and 'The Jeffersons'", "question_index": 7, "text": "So you write that Maude is the character that most resembles you. What similarities does she have to you?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2014 interview with Norman Lear. He died last week at the age of 101."}
{"id": "1219331411", "date": "2023-12-15", "guest": "Carroll O'Connor", "title": "Remembering Norman Lear, creator of 'All in the Family' and 'The Jeffersons'", "question_index": 8, "text": "I want to play a scene from what is, I think, the most famous episode of \"Maude.\" It's actually a double episode, and it's when Maude finds out at the age of 47 that she's pregnant, and she's considering having an abortion. This was a few months before the Supreme Court decision, Roe v. Wade, which legalized abortion. But abortion was already legal in several states, including New York, where the character of Maude lived. So it would have been legal for her to have an abortion. She's not sure what to do. And in this scene, her daughter, played by Adrienne Barbeau, is talking with her about it. And her husband - and was this her third husband?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was, you know, an out-and-out liberal, as I am - no apologies in any direction - and the kind of liberal I am in the sense that I am not well-schooled in the political reasons for my being a liber"}
{"id": "1219331411", "date": "2023-12-15", "guest": "Carroll O'Connor", "title": "Remembering Norman Lear, creator of 'All in the Family' and 'The Jeffersons'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Fourth husband.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Fourth."}
{"id": "1219331411", "date": "2023-12-15", "guest": "Carroll O'Connor", "title": "Remembering Norman Lear, creator of 'All in the Family' and 'The Jeffersons'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yeah. And her fourth husband, Walter, played by Bill Macy is there, too. So here's that scene from a 1972 episode, Season 1, of \"Maude.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Fourth husband."}
{"id": "1219331411", "date": "2023-12-15", "guest": "Carroll O'Connor", "title": "Remembering Norman Lear, creator of 'All in the Family' and 'The Jeffersons'", "question_index": 11, "text": "OK. That's a scene from \"Maude.\" And why did you want to do an episode about abortion? You didn't see abortion discussed on sitcoms of the time in the early 1970s.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Carol Traynor) It's not your fault. When you were young, abortion was a dirty word. It's not anymore. Now, you think about that."}
{"id": "1219331411", "date": "2023-12-15", "guest": "Carroll O'Connor", "title": "Remembering Norman Lear, creator of 'All in the Family' and 'The Jeffersons'", "question_index": 12, "text": "So what did the network have to say about this episode? Were they at all concerned about running it? Again, it's before Roe v. Wade.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I simply saw it in homes everywhere. It was part of the American cultural fabric. It was - no. It wasn't talked about a great deal, and it wasn't written about a great deal. And I didn't understan"}
{"id": "1219331411", "date": "2023-12-15", "guest": "Carroll O'Connor", "title": "Remembering Norman Lear, creator of 'All in the Family' and 'The Jeffersons'", "question_index": 13, "text": "So the network was kind of concerned when \"All In The Family\" was about to start because of some of the language and because some of the sentiments expressed, which were, you know, most unusual for prime time network sitcoms. So the first episode actually started with a disclaimer, which you print in your book, so I will read it. And the disclaimer to the first episode of \"All In The Family\" said, (reading) the program you are about to see is \"All In The Family.\" It seeks to throw a humorous spotlight on our frailties, prejudices and concerns. By making them a source of laughter, we hope to show, in a mature fashion, just how absurd they are. What a comedy killer that is.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University. Today, we're paying tribute to Norman Lear, the influential TV producer whose sitcom credits included \"All "}
{"id": "1219331411", "date": "2023-12-15", "guest": "Carroll O'Connor", "title": "Remembering Norman Lear, creator of 'All in the Family' and 'The Jeffersons'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Oh, they did it more than once? They did it before each show for a while?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a total surprise to us. I had no idea that was going to happen. But we lived with it for some weeks and then they took it down."}
{"id": "1219331411", "date": "2023-12-15", "guest": "Carroll O'Connor", "title": "Remembering Norman Lear, creator of 'All in the Family' and 'The Jeffersons'", "question_index": 15, "text": "And I'm sure you thought this was totally unnecessary.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I think they did it for some three, four weeks. And when they realized the show was accepted, they took it away."}
{"id": "1219331411", "date": "2023-12-15", "guest": "Carroll O'Connor", "title": "Remembering Norman Lear, creator of 'All in the Family' and 'The Jeffersons'", "question_index": 16, "text": "We talked a little bit about \"All In The Family\" and about \"Maude.\" \"The Jeffersons\" was spun off from \"All In The Family.\" They started off being the neighbors of the Bunker family.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thought it was unnecessary. I don't remember being upset by it, you know? It was, in a sense, even - you know, it's like more fingers pointing at it. Go watch, you know, something's happening here."}
{"id": "1219331411", "date": "2023-12-15", "guest": "Carroll O'Connor", "title": "Remembering Norman Lear, creator of 'All in the Family' and 'The Jeffersons'", "question_index": 17, "text": "So when you gave the characters their own show, it was still pretty unusual for a TV series to be centered on African American characters. And what are some of the issues that came with that when you were starting to design the series?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1219331411", "date": "2023-12-15", "guest": "Carroll O'Connor", "title": "Remembering Norman Lear, creator of 'All in the Family' and 'The Jeffersons'", "question_index": 18, "text": "So three of the shows that you created starred African American characters \"Good Times,\" \"The Jeffersons\" and \"Sanford And Son.\" What was your thoughts about who should be in the writers room - whether it should be exclusively African American writers - like, what the representation of African American writers should be on those shows?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the first of them was \"Good Times.\" The character of Florida was Maude's maid. And it was clear she became very, very popular, and it was clear that she could play a key role in a show about her"}
{"id": "1219331411", "date": "2023-12-15", "guest": "Carroll O'Connor", "title": "Remembering Norman Lear, creator of 'All in the Family' and 'The Jeffersons'", "question_index": 19, "text": "\"Good Times\" - the family in \"Good Times\" lived in a housing project. The family in \"The Jeffersons\" owned a chain of dry-cleaning stores and they were prosperous, middle class. Did you intentionally want to represent two different economic classes in those shows?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it couldn't be African American writers only because there weren't that many who sought to be writing. And we had several and always looked for more."}
{"id": "1219331411", "date": "2023-12-15", "guest": "Carroll O'Connor", "title": "Remembering Norman Lear, creator of 'All in the Family' and 'The Jeffersons'", "question_index": 20, "text": "And then, of course, you had your show \"Sanford And Son,\" which starred Redd Foxx. What was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what happened, Terry, was that \"Good Times\" had been on for a couple of years. And some of the Black press were writing that it's a shame that there were no upwardly mobile African American fami"}
{"id": "1219331411", "date": "2023-12-15", "guest": "Carroll O'Connor", "title": "Remembering Norman Lear, creator of 'All in the Family' and 'The Jeffersons'", "question_index": 21, "text": "That's unusual", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", because they were NBC executives in the CBS building. But they saw a run through of the pilot episode in rehearsal. Standing up, no cheers, just everybody - and roaring. And they bought the show. NB"}
{"id": "1219331411", "date": "2023-12-15", "guest": "Carroll O'Connor", "title": "Remembering Norman Lear, creator of 'All in the Family' and 'The Jeffersons'", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", because they were NBC executives in the CBS building. But they saw a run through of the pilot episode in rehearsal. Standing up, no cheers, just everybody - and roaring. And they bought the show. NB"}
{"id": "1219331411", "date": "2023-12-15", "guest": "Carroll O'Connor", "title": "Remembering Norman Lear, creator of 'All in the Family' and 'The Jeffersons'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Norman Lear, thank you so much. Thank you for all the TV shows you've given us. And thank you for the interview.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think it ever happened before or since."}
{"id": "1219331411", "date": "2023-12-15", "guest": "Carroll O'Connor", "title": "Remembering Norman Lear, creator of 'All in the Family' and 'The Jeffersons'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Did you think twice about taking the role as a Black housekeeper 'cause, you know, I'm thinking in the way that the Negro Ensemble Company was was developed as a place to get roles where you wouldn't have to play housekeeper-type roles, which was, for many years, some of the only roles for Black women in movies or television or the stage. So how did that strike you when the offer was made?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. In the 1960s, Esther Rolle was one of the original members of the Negro Ensemble Company. After playing a regular on the soap opera \"One Life To Live,\" she took on the role of Flori"}
{"id": "1219331411", "date": "2023-12-15", "guest": "Carroll O'Connor", "title": "Remembering Norman Lear, creator of 'All in the Family' and 'The Jeffersons'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Did Norman Lear's willingness to have you change the dialect when necessary or alter the dialogue prove to be true once you actually started working with him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, very poorly when they first told me about it. But then I asked because I didn't particularly want to go to Hollywood, and they finally called and said what is the holdup? Why don't you want to d"}
{"id": "1219331411", "date": "2023-12-15", "guest": "Carroll O'Connor", "title": "Remembering Norman Lear, creator of 'All in the Family' and 'The Jeffersons'", "question_index": 26, "text": "Then you had your own spinoff series, \"Good Times,\" which the characterizations on that changed in the years that you played it, and you ended up leaving for a year in protest. How did the characters change to the point that you wanted to walk out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure. I think that's one of his great successes - he listens."}
{"id": "1219331411", "date": "2023-12-15", "guest": "Carroll O'Connor", "title": "Remembering Norman Lear, creator of 'All in the Family' and 'The Jeffersons'", "question_index": 27, "text": "Why did you go back after taking a year off?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in the first place, when the series was conceived, it was for me and my three children. Having come from a home where there was a mother and a father, and my father having lived with us all of o"}
{"id": "1219331411", "date": "2023-12-15", "guest": "Carroll O'Connor", "title": "Remembering Norman Lear, creator of 'All in the Family' and 'The Jeffersons'", "question_index": 28, "text": "Were you pleased with those successions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because I was asked by the head of CBS. Mr. Paley called me. I told him my problems with it, and he said what concessions he could make."}
{"id": "1220282449", "date": "2023-12-19", "guest": "Andre Braugher", "title": "Remembering Andre Braugher, star of 'Homicide' and 'Brooklyn Nine-Nine'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today we remember actor Andre Braugher. He died last week of lung cancer at the age of 61. He's best known for his work on the TV series \"Brooklyn Nine-Nine\" and \"Homicide: Life On The Street\" and for the films \"Glory\" And \"She Said.\" We'll hear two interviews with him - one that I did with him in 1995 and another that our TV critic David Bianculli recorded with him in 2006. We'll start with David's appreciation of Andre Braugher.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1220282449", "date": "2023-12-19", "guest": "Andre Braugher", "title": "Remembering Andre Braugher, star of 'Homicide' and 'Brooklyn Nine-Nine'", "question_index": 1, "text": "David Bianculli is professor of television studies at Rowan University. We're remembering actor Andre Braugher, who died last week at the age of 61. Later on today's show, we'll hear an interview that David recorded with Braugher. But first, an interview that I did with him in 1995 while he was starring as Detective Frank Pembleton in \"Homicide.\" Braugher had done a fair amount of Shakespeare prior to his TV work. I asked him about that.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As Captain Raymond Holt on \"Brooklyn Nine-Nine,\" Andre Braugher delighted audiences for eight seasons and was nominated for four more Emmy Awards, this time as supporting actor in a comedy. And at the"}
{"id": "1220282449", "date": "2023-12-19", "guest": "Andre Braugher", "title": "Remembering Andre Braugher, star of 'Homicide' and 'Brooklyn Nine-Nine'", "question_index": 2, "text": "The way that a Shakespearean character uses English is different than a way - the way a contemporary detective speaks. What can you learn from Shakespeare that you can apply to contemporary film and television in terms of speech - intonation...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As Captain Raymond Holt on \"Brooklyn Nine-Nine,\" Andre Braugher delighted audiences for eight seasons and was nominated for four more Emmy Awards, this time as supporting actor in a comedy. And at the"}
{"id": "1220282449", "date": "2023-12-19", "guest": "Andre Braugher", "title": "Remembering Andre Braugher, star of 'Homicide' and 'Brooklyn Nine-Nine'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Is there any way I could get you to take a line from Shakespeare, or to take a long sentence from \"Homicide,\" and show us how you break it down and how you actually analyze that line before delivering it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, all of that work came to me from the Juilliard School - communicating, breaking up the sentences into understandable parts and putting them back together again, the pure technique of speaking in o"}
{"id": "1220282449", "date": "2023-12-19", "guest": "Andre Braugher", "title": "Remembering Andre Braugher, star of 'Homicide' and 'Brooklyn Nine-Nine'", "question_index": 4, "text": "This is from last week's episode.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wow. I don't have a script in front of me. Let me think. So we're looking for a van that - I can't remember the line. We're looking for a van that does not exist, which carried kidnappers who never li"}
{"id": "1220282449", "date": "2023-12-19", "guest": "Andre Braugher", "title": "Remembering Andre Braugher, star of 'Homicide' and 'Brooklyn Nine-Nine'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Is that last week's episode? Right."}
{"id": "1220282449", "date": "2023-12-19", "guest": "Andre Braugher", "title": "Remembering Andre Braugher, star of 'Homicide' and 'Brooklyn Nine-Nine'", "question_index": 6, "text": "You said before you loved Shakespeare even when you were young. What did you find when you were young in Shakespeare? A lot of young people don't - just don't like Shakespeare because it's such a different period and because the language can be very difficult to understand compared to contemporary writing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- that's a long and complicated thought, which you typically don't get. Typically it's like, where is this guy, or, these kidnappers don't exist, or some smaller thought. And I relish the idea of taki"}
{"id": "1220282449", "date": "2023-12-19", "guest": "Andre Braugher", "title": "Remembering Andre Braugher, star of 'Homicide' and 'Brooklyn Nine-Nine'", "question_index": 7, "text": "That's actor Andre Braugher from our interview recorded in 1995. We'll hear more of that interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is my impression, that if your vocabulary is limited, then your thoughts are limited. And I'm not a man who wants to be limited. And I found something really, really beautiful in Shakespeare, som"}
{"id": "1220282449", "date": "2023-12-19", "guest": "Andre Braugher", "title": "Remembering Andre Braugher, star of 'Homicide' and 'Brooklyn Nine-Nine'", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're remembering actor Andre Braugher. He died last week at age 61. Let's get back to my 1995 interview with him, recorded while he was starring in the TV series \"Homicide: Life On The Street.\" Let's get to your formative years. I read that your grandmother taught you how to read before you even started school. What do you remember about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "LIFE ON THE STREET - THEME SONG\")"}
{"id": "1220282449", "date": "2023-12-19", "guest": "Andre Braugher", "title": "Remembering Andre Braugher, star of 'Homicide' and 'Brooklyn Nine-Nine'", "question_index": 9, "text": "About her teaching you to read.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "About my grandma? Well, she..."}
{"id": "1220282449", "date": "2023-12-19", "guest": "Andre Braugher", "title": "Remembering Andre Braugher, star of 'Homicide' and 'Brooklyn Nine-Nine'", "question_index": 10, "text": "When your parents decided that you're going to go to Catholic school right away, did you thrive there? Did you like it? Were there things that you didn't like about the discipline or the uniform you had to wear?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she read from the Bible, you know. She was a very, very religious woman, the sweetest woman I've ever known. And yeah, she would read to me from the Bible, and I'd look it up, and I'd keep readi"}
{"id": "1220282449", "date": "2023-12-19", "guest": "Andre Braugher", "title": "Remembering Andre Braugher, star of 'Homicide' and 'Brooklyn Nine-Nine'", "question_index": 11, "text": "This was the interrogation episode.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The uniform - the blue pants and - oh, my goodness. Things that I didn't like about the Catholic school - no, I actually loved it. You know, it was a very challenging environment. And I thrived in tha"}
{"id": "1220282449", "date": "2023-12-19", "guest": "Andre Braugher", "title": "Remembering Andre Braugher, star of 'Homicide' and 'Brooklyn Nine-Nine'", "question_index": 12, "text": "That was a great episode.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The interrogation episode. We rehearsed every day two hours before we started shooting."}
{"id": "1220282449", "date": "2023-12-19", "guest": "Andre Braugher", "title": "Remembering Andre Braugher, star of 'Homicide' and 'Brooklyn Nine-Nine'", "question_index": 13, "text": "Now, what kind of homework did you do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It - well, the work - the homework we did in rehearsal showed up on screen."}
{"id": "1220282449", "date": "2023-12-19", "guest": "Andre Braugher", "title": "Remembering Andre Braugher, star of 'Homicide' and 'Brooklyn Nine-Nine'", "question_index": 14, "text": "When you were young, was it easy for you to find friends who were as serious about education and about other aspects of life as you were?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We would actually run through the lines, and we made choices right then and there. We rehearsed like - as if we were doing a play. We found the best choice, not the first choice. We found the best cho"}
{"id": "1220282449", "date": "2023-12-19", "guest": "Andre Braugher", "title": "Remembering Andre Braugher, star of 'Homicide' and 'Brooklyn Nine-Nine'", "question_index": 15, "text": "When you were reduced to tears, was that during a rehearsal or, you know, in class, in front of other people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, sure. You could find the athletes and the jokers and the scamps and the rascals. You could find every - you know, everybody anywhere you'd look for them. You know, I've been gifted by God to"}
{"id": "1220282449", "date": "2023-12-19", "guest": "Andre Braugher", "title": "Remembering Andre Braugher, star of 'Homicide' and 'Brooklyn Nine-Nine'", "question_index": 16, "text": "So where did you take it after that? Were you able to do it right afterwards, or were you really humiliated by the whole thing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I remember my - a woman who I love and respect today, Liz Smith, my voice teacher. We were doing some poems by Dylan Thomas. I was doing Dylan Thomas - \"And Death Shall Have No Dominion.\" And I ha"}
{"id": "1220282449", "date": "2023-12-19", "guest": "Andre Braugher", "title": "Remembering Andre Braugher, star of 'Homicide' and 'Brooklyn Nine-Nine'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Andre Braugher, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was humiliated by the whole thing, you know? And through my tears, I redid the speech again. And then she said - and of course, everything went awry, you know? Everything was bad. And she said at th"}
{"id": "1220282449", "date": "2023-12-19", "guest": "Andre Braugher", "title": "Remembering Andre Braugher, star of 'Homicide' and 'Brooklyn Nine-Nine'", "question_index": 18, "text": "My interview with Andre Braugher was recorded in 1995. He died last week at the age of 61. Braugher returned to FRESH AIR in 2006 for an interview with our TV critic David Bianculli. We'll hear that conversation after a break. And jazz critic Kevin Whitehead will remember some of the jazz musicians who died this year. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. My pleasure. Thank you."}
{"id": "1220282449", "date": "2023-12-19", "guest": "Andre Braugher", "title": "Remembering Andre Braugher, star of 'Homicide' and 'Brooklyn Nine-Nine'", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today we're remembering actor Andre Braugher, who died of lung cancer last week at age 61. He's best known for his portrayals of police in two opposite genres. In the comedy series \"Brooklyn Nine-Nine,\" which lampooned cop shows and also starred Andy Samberg, Braugher played a police captain. The series ran from 2013 to 2021. He won an Emmy for his portrayal of a police detective in the drama series \"Homicide: Life On The Street,\" which ran from 1993 to '99 and was based on a nonfiction book by David Simon, who also created the TV series \"The Wire.\" Our TV critic David Bianculli spoke with Braugher in 2006.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. My pleasure. Thank you."}
{"id": "1220282449", "date": "2023-12-19", "guest": "Andre Braugher", "title": "Remembering Andre Braugher, star of 'Homicide' and 'Brooklyn Nine-Nine'", "question_index": 20, "text": "We're listening to the interview our TV critic David Bianculli recorded with Andre Braugher in 2006. We'll hear more of it after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And all of the cliches that come with rehabilitation. And for me, the aftermath of the stroke, it was not so much about the rehabilitation but how fundamentally changed all of the - all of our rela"}
{"id": "1220282449", "date": "2023-12-19", "guest": "Andre Braugher", "title": "Remembering Andre Braugher, star of 'Homicide' and 'Brooklyn Nine-Nine'", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to our remembrance of Andre Braugher, who died last week at age 61. He's best known for his role as a police captain in the comedy series \"Brooklyn Nine-Nine,\" and his role as a police detective in the drama series \"Homicide.\" Let's get back to the interview our TV critic David Bianculli recorded with Braugher in 2006.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And all of the cliches that come with rehabilitation. And for me, the aftermath of the stroke, it was not so much about the rehabilitation but how fundamentally changed all of the - all of our rela"}
{"id": "1220282449", "date": "2023-12-19", "guest": "Andre Braugher", "title": "Remembering Andre Braugher, star of 'Homicide' and 'Brooklyn Nine-Nine'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Andre Braugher speaking with our TV critic David Bianculli in 2006. Braugher died last week at age 61 of lung cancer. Our jazz critic Kevin Whitehead has an appreciation of jazz musicians who died this year after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My pleasure."}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're going to celebrate Christmas by listening back to Questlove playing songs from the Christmas playlist he put together for us last year. In addition to his many credits, Questlove is perhaps the most famous, popular and in-demand DJs. He even DJed a party for Obama. Last year, Questlove won an Oscar for his documentary \"Summer Of Soul,\" in which he featured film performances from the overlooked 1969 Harlem Cultural Festival, which was nicknamed the Black Woodstock and featured performers like Stevie Wonder, Sly and the Family Stone, Gladys Knight & the Pips, Nina Simone and Mahalia Jackson. \"Summer Of Soul\" won a Grammy for best music film. In 2021, Questlove was the music director for the Oscars ceremony. He co-founded the band the Roots, which, among other things, is the house band for \"The Tonight Show With Jimmy Fallon.\" He was a producer of the original cast recording of \"Hamilton.\" He's also written several books related to music.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 1, "text": "Questlove, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Thanks so much for doing this and choosing music for us. Why don't we start with a song that you selected? And this is a song by DRAM and his mother, who he calls BigBabyMom, and it's \"Silver Bells.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 2, "text": "And I have to tell you, there's so much really schlocky Christmas music. And that's why we're so excited to have you on the show doing this, 'cause you're choosing really interesting stuff.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 3, "text": "So the song \"Silver Bells\" is kind of high on my list of just, you know, schlocky and just annoying. It's one of the reasons I don't like a lot of Christmas songs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 4, "text": "This is a great recording. So tell us about the recording and why you chose it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 5, "text": "Let's hear it. Here we go. So this is \"Silver Bells,\" a good version of it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's a very unique recording. I always cringe at the older person that tries to put a tag on someone younger, like, oh yeah, he represents Gen Z, but, I mean, DRAM is kind of the post-neo soul s"}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 6, "text": "When you were growing up and you were touring with your father's band, did you spend a lot of Christmases performing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Soon it will be Christmas Day."}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 7, "text": "What songs did you have to perform around Christmas when you were touring with your father and his band, Lee Andrews & the Hearts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Like, we would often have Christmases in very unusual places. Probably one of the best places ever - there was a resort in San Juan, Puerto Rico, called the Dupont Plaza. And my father would do "}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 8, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know what's weird?"}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 9, "text": "That's the chestnuts roasting on an open fire song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My dad, I believe, once - my dad had a voice very similar to Nat King Cole. So I do remember once in 1980 when I was 9 years old, kind of as an encore - like, he would normally do, like, either \"Unfor"}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yeah. Well, let's get to another song on your playlist. And this is \"Disco Claus,\" which is by Bionic.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, \"The Christmas Song,\" Nat King Cole's \"The Christmas Song.\" Yes."}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 11, "text": "And it sounds more like funk Santa than disco Claus.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 12, "text": "OK. Let's hear it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is. You know, there's these two really influential DJs that have really inspired my DJ career. They're from the Boston area. They're called Amir and Akon (ph). And those guys, like, they're the DJs"}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 13, "text": "That's \"Disco Claus\" by Bionic, one of the songs chosen for us by Questlove. You've said that as a creator, you're 98% groove and 2% melody. And the track you just played is very much groove.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) It was the night before Christmas when all through the pad, not a record was spinning. Things really looked bad. (Singing) Disco Claus came into town, funking all the toys around. Susie Q an"}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 14, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very much so, yes."}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 15, "text": "\"Little Drummer Boy\" is one of the Christmas songs - the original recording of it - that just really, really drove me crazy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, drums are - that's my calling card, you know? And for me, there's a lot of really obscure Christmas records that might, like - they'll do their version of, like, \"Little Drummer Boy\" or someth"}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 16, "text": "Oh, yeah. They played it so much on the radio when I was growing up. And yet - tell me you like it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "?"}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 17, "text": "Oh, because you were the drummer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's hard to escape it. Yeah, all throughout, like, first and second grade, like, every Christmas pageant, I think it was expected that I was supposed to play \"Little Drummer Boy.\""}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 18, "text": "Oh, no.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because I was a drummer. Right, exactly."}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 19, "text": "So did you like the song 'cause you got to play?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. Yeah, no..."}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 20, "text": "Oh, boy. Well, let's hear a song that's lyrically the opposite of it's the most happiest time of the year. So this is James Brown's \"Santa Claus, Santa Claus\" from 1968.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, actually, you know, it wasn't that bad though. I probably did it, like, four times in my life. I didn't do it, like, every year. But, you know, oftentimes in school, at the Christmas pageant, ev"}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 21, "text": "Yeah, why...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is so hilarious to me."}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 22, "text": "Why is it hilarious to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm sorry."}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 23, "text": "Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. So the first time you heard a Christmas song...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This song - this particular song is my - one, this is my introduction to Christmas music; two, it's my introduction to James Brown."}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 24, "text": "...And the first time you heard James Brown was this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 25, "text": "Yeah, he's asking Santa and the Lord, why does he have to suffer so? So, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "she's a very animated woman. So, you know, as a baby, I thought that was Grandmom singing all the songs because, like, James Brown really belts like a female gospel singer - you know what I mean? - li"}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 26, "text": "All right. Let's hear it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 27, "text": "This is James Brown from 1968.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right."}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 28, "text": "That was James Brown from 1968. I'm still processing that this was, like, your introduction to James Brown.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've wanted so many things, I wanted so. But you experience the wants when you live in the ghetto. But now I understand what it means to be a man. So there's one thing I'd like know. (Singing) I been "}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is another very unusual recording with a story behind it. It's called \"Santa Claus Is A Black Man,\" and it's by Akim & Teddy Vann from 1973.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. But, see, after that, then I wanted to hear all the songs where he's, like, screaming and crying."}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 30, "text": "Yeah. Teddy Vann, her father. And she was - what? - 5 when she recorded this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Teddy Vann, her father. Yeah."}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 31, "text": "Oh, oh. Well, apparently Teddy Vann, Akim's father...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was 5 when she did this. So, you know, Akim Vann, most would know her - she's a staple in the Prospect Heights area because she's, like - she's the owner of a really awesome bakery. It's called th"}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 32, "text": "...Wrote one of Luther Vandross' hits?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 33, "text": "Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I could see why - OK. I could see why he was singing backup on this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, \"The Power Of Love.\" Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 34, "text": "OK. All right. So you loved about the song what?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 35, "text": "He looked just like you, Daddy", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I just loved the absolute innocence of it. Like, similar to \"I Saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus,\" this is Christmas through the eyes of a child who - you know, the whole point is that kids don't kn"}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 36, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I just loved the absolute innocence of it. Like, similar to \"I Saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus,\" this is Christmas through the eyes of a child who - you know, the whole point is that kids don't kn"}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 37, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. She doesn't realize that her dad..."}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 38, "text": "Yeah, that he's dressed as Santa Claus. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Is actually Santa Claus. So it's a cute song."}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 39, "text": "So let's hear it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 40, "text": "So that's one of the songs selected for us by Questlove, who we asked to select some Christmas songs to play for us. And happily...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Hey, you want to hear something that's out of sight? You know what I found out last night? It's when Mama turned out the light. I went in the living room to see what the noise that woke up m"}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 41, "text": "...For us, he agreed. So what was Santa Claus to you? Did your parents tell you that there was a Santa Claus or that that was somebody who only existed in movies?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 42, "text": "So one of the surprises on your playlist is a track from a Marvin Gaye album from 1972, and it's called - the track is called \"Christmas In The City\". It's an...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's weird - yeah. Santa - I was one of those kids - it's weird that if I see a clown, I love it. But if I saw Santa Claus, I was afraid of it. So every time I saw Santa Claus before the age"}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 43, "text": "...Instrumental. Why did you choose an - you know, Marvin Gaye's such a great singer, but why did you find, like, the instrumental track that you'd have no idea is about Christmas?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 44, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So this song, although it was recorded in '72, like, it only circulated amongst, like, the bootleg collectors amongst the years. And finally, Motown, like, maybe 10 or 15 years ago, finally rereleased"}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 45, "text": "So let's hear it. So this is Marvin Gaye, \"Christmas In The City\".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And \"Christmas In The City\" is just one of the most - it's one of the most depressing-sounding, like, sad, loneliest - I don't know. There's just something hilarious about hearing Marvin Gaye struggle"}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 46, "text": "That's a Marvin Gaye track without Marvin Gaye singing. And that's one of the Christmas songs - it's called \"Christmas In The City\" - chosen for us by Questlove. So let's get to Stevie Wonder. I know you love Stevie Wonder, and he's in your...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And \"Christmas In The City\" is just one of the most - it's one of the most depressing-sounding, like, sad, loneliest - I don't know. There's just something hilarious about hearing Marvin Gaye struggle"}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 47, "text": "...Film performing in \"Summer Of Soul\". And this is a promotional disc from Britain.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 48, "text": "It's a kind of Christmas greetings song - Christmas greetings message. It's not even a whole song. So tell us about the origin of this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 49, "text": "OK. Here's Stevie Wonder.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know why I chose this? Stevie Wonder is world famous for his unique jingles for radio stations. You know, if you search the internet high and low, you can find some that he's done over the years a"}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 50, "text": "I wish I could hear more of that, but I guess there isn't more of that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hi, this is Stevie Wonder. On behalf of the Motown family, I'd like to say (singing) happy holiday from all of us to you."}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 51, "text": "Do you think he did these promotional recordings because he wanted to or because the record company urged him to or because it would, like, get him more airplay?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very brief. Sometimes, you know, you can make a point in 26 seconds. I mean, look at the Ramones. They made a life-changing record, and not one song is over two minutes. So, you know, I think more art"}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 52, "text": "So I'd like to close with another song. And I'm thinking, like, do you have a favorite - and I'm going to - I guess I'll get a little churchy here. Do you have a favorite, like, real Christmas song that is, say, like a gospel song or - 'cause I know you love Mahalia Jackson - she's in \"Summer Of Soul\" - and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I - yeah, I mean, Stevie Wonder came from - Stevie Wonder not only came from, like, the first generation of Motown, but he also came from the first generation of a professional Black record company th"}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 53, "text": "...Mavis Staples. So is there a song, like, from that tradition that you'd like to end with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 54, "text": "Oh, thank you for choosing that. Questlove, it's always such a great treat when you're on our show. Thank you so much for choosing music for us. And I wish you, you know, a really good Christmas and a very healthy and happy and meditative and fulfilling...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, there's so many to choose from. I will say, though, there's a rendition of \"Silent Night\" that's done by The Temptations. It's their '73 version with Dennis Edwards singing lead vocals. And "}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 55, "text": "...2023.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 56, "text": "Yeah. It's just always such a pleasure to have you on our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "1220415718", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 57, "text": "That session with Questlove was recorded one year ago. Questlove is a founding member of the band The Roots, and the band's drummer. They're the house band for \"The Tonight Show.\" If you want to hear the complete version of the songs from his Christmas playlist, you can find the link on our website, freshair.npr.org. And if you want to see his Oscar and Grammy Award-winning concert documentary, \"Summer Of Soul,\" it's streaming on Hulu and Disney+.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Vocalizing). 'Twas the night before Christmas. And all through the house, not a creature was stirring, not even a mouse. (Singing) In my mind, I want you to be free. For all of our friends, would you"}
{"id": "1220936483", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "J D Mcpherson", "title": "A roots and rockabilly holiday concert with JD McPherson and his band", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. A song from Questlove's Christmas playlist is from the holiday album \"Socks,\" by J.D. McPherson and his band. They performed a Christmas concert on our show in 2018. We thought it would be fun to hear some of that. McPherson is a roots and rockabilly musician who pledged to never make a Christmas album. I'm glad he broke that promise. His album \"Socks\" features his original holiday songs, and they're really fun. Here's an excerpt of the band's FRESH AIR concert.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1220936483", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "J D Mcpherson", "title": "A roots and rockabilly holiday concert with JD McPherson and his band", "question_index": 1, "text": "Welcome, all of you, to FRESH AIR. It's so exciting to have you here, and the new Christmas album is great. Do you want to introduce the first song?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1220936483", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "J D Mcpherson", "title": "A roots and rockabilly holiday concert with JD McPherson and his band", "question_index": 2, "text": "Thank you so much for performing that. That is so great. And this is in our studio. We heard J.D. McPherson on vocals and guitar, Jimmy Sutton, bass and guitar, and also, singing backup vocals, Doug Corcoran and Ray Jacildo. And that is one of the songs that's also featured on J.D.'s album, which is called \"Socks,\" and it's an album of original Christmas songs. And it's really fun, just like the song we just heard. So, there's another Christmas song I'd like you to do, and it's called \"Ugly Sweater Blues.\" And a lot of people intentionally wear ugly sweaters to Christmas parties - really hideous ones. So did you ever have any, like, ugly sweater traditions or real ugly sweaters that you were forced to wear?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, this is \"All The Gifts I Need.\" (Singing) Happiness is automatic. There's music in the air. Grab the boxes from the attic and haul them down the stairs. Freezing weather's round the corner. And "}
{"id": "1220936483", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "J D Mcpherson", "title": "A roots and rockabilly holiday concert with JD McPherson and his band", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was more of - so, you know, I'm a child - I have three older brothers and an older sister, and they were all out of the house when I was born. I was a big surprise. And so it wasn't really sw"}
{"id": "1220936483", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "J D Mcpherson", "title": "A roots and rockabilly holiday concert with JD McPherson and his band", "question_index": 4, "text": "I know the feeling. I knew the feeling. All right. Can you do that song for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For - everybody has some point where they're being forced to wear clothes that they don't really want to. So, ugly sweaters - I think everybody - even if you haven't worn them, that's a thing that you"}
{"id": "1220936483", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "J D Mcpherson", "title": "A roots and rockabilly holiday concert with JD McPherson and his band", "question_index": 5, "text": "So this is J.D. McPherson and his band performing in our studio. We're going to hear J.D. on guitar and vocals, Jimmy Sutton on bass, Doug Corcoran is going to be playing steel guitar and Ray Jacildo, chimes. So here we go.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mmm hmm."}
{"id": "1220936483", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "J D Mcpherson", "title": "A roots and rockabilly holiday concert with JD McPherson and his band", "question_index": 6, "text": "That sounded great. That's such a great song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Mama, don't make me wear that old thing again - hand-knitted Christmas trees and a silly snowman. No matter if I refuse, I got these ugly sweater blues. Mama, why can't you see? I feel like "}
{"id": "1220936483", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "J D Mcpherson", "title": "A roots and rockabilly holiday concert with JD McPherson and his band", "question_index": 7, "text": "That song was written by J.D. McPherson, who we heard on guitar and vocals, and this is one of the songs that he wrote that's on the Christmas album \"Socks\" that he recorded with his band. And thank you for playing this in the studio for us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, thank you."}
{"id": "1220936483", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "J D Mcpherson", "title": "A roots and rockabilly holiday concert with JD McPherson and his band", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is so much fun for me. So, J.D., I want to ask you a little bit about your past because you grew up on a cattle farm...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is so much fun. Thank you for having us."}
{"id": "1220936483", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "J D Mcpherson", "title": "A roots and rockabilly holiday concert with JD McPherson and his band", "question_index": 9, "text": "...In Oklahoma. So describe it for us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1220936483", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "J D Mcpherson", "title": "A roots and rockabilly holiday concert with JD McPherson and his band", "question_index": 10, "text": "Did you have to do things on the cattle ranch?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hundred and sixty acres or thereabouts - an A-frame house that my dad built up on a hill, and southeast Oklahoma is really pretty mountainous, kind of Ozark-type landscape. Registered Brangus cattle, "}
{"id": "1220936483", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "J D Mcpherson", "title": "A roots and rockabilly holiday concert with JD McPherson and his band", "question_index": 11, "text": "What did you have to do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "1220936483", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "J D Mcpherson", "title": "A roots and rockabilly holiday concert with JD McPherson and his band", "question_index": 12, "text": "So you had to do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you have to feed them, first of all - waking up at 5 in the morning before school and putting out a round bale or meal and salt mix for the cows and everything. That's an early day for a teenage"}
{"id": "1220936483", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "J D Mcpherson", "title": "A roots and rockabilly holiday concert with JD McPherson and his band", "question_index": 13, "text": "And did you have to shovel anything?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1220936483", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "J D Mcpherson", "title": "A roots and rockabilly holiday concert with JD McPherson and his band", "question_index": 14, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1220936483", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "J D Mcpherson", "title": "A roots and rockabilly holiday concert with JD McPherson and his band", "question_index": 15, "text": "My knowledge of, like, cattle is kind of like cattle-drive Westerns, like the TV series \"Rawhide.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just watch where you're walking."}
{"id": "1220936483", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "J D Mcpherson", "title": "A roots and rockabilly holiday concert with JD McPherson and his band", "question_index": 16, "text": "Nothing like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "1220936483", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "J D Mcpherson", "title": "A roots and rockabilly holiday concert with JD McPherson and his band", "question_index": 17, "text": "Really? Like, you call them, and they come?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. You just kind of call them, and they come up..."}
{"id": "1220936483", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "J D Mcpherson", "title": "A roots and rockabilly holiday concert with JD McPherson and his band", "question_index": 18, "text": "What's the cattle call?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "1220936483", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "J D Mcpherson", "title": "A roots and rockabilly holiday concert with JD McPherson and his band", "question_index": 19, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I can't do it here because it's so loud. But it's kind of like, (imitating a whistle)."}
{"id": "1220936483", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "J D Mcpherson", "title": "A roots and rockabilly holiday concert with JD McPherson and his band", "question_index": 20, "text": "So, I want to close with another - that is, I want you to close with another Christmas song. There's a song I love from the new album, your new album \"Socks\" that I'd like you to perform for us, and it's called \"What's That Sound?\" And I think everyone in the band is going to chime in on that one.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1220936483", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "J D Mcpherson", "title": "A roots and rockabilly holiday concert with JD McPherson and his band", "question_index": 21, "text": "So this is J.D. McPherson and his band performing in our studio. And the song is \"What's That Sound?\" And it's also on their new Christmas album, which is called \"Socks.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, this one I think is probably getting down to the root of that anti-cynicism, uh, sentiment we were just speaking about. This is - this one's about all of those nice things that you can exp"}
{"id": "1220936483", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "J D Mcpherson", "title": "A roots and rockabilly holiday concert with JD McPherson and his band", "question_index": 22, "text": "Oh, that was great. Thank you so much for performing for us in our studio. It's just been wonderful. I wish you all merry Christmas.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK, here we go. (Singing) What's that sound at the door I hear? I heard that same merry sound last year. Neighbors are caroling around the town, trying to spread a little bit of joy around. I hear tha"}
{"id": "1220936483", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "J D Mcpherson", "title": "A roots and rockabilly holiday concert with JD McPherson and his band", "question_index": 23, "text": "Thank you for doing this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. Thanks for doing this."}
{"id": "1220936483", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "J D Mcpherson", "title": "A roots and rockabilly holiday concert with JD McPherson and his band", "question_index": 24, "text": "J.D. McPherson and his band, recorded on our show in 2018 after the release of their Christmas album, \"Socks.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we get back to our series of some of our favorite interviews of the year. We'll hear from musician and singer Allison Russell, who performed in our studio. Some of her songs are about being abused by her adoptive father and how she healed from that trauma. Her latest album, \"The Returner,\" is currently nominated for four Grammys, including Best Americana Album. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Our pleasure."}
{"id": "1220936483", "date": "2023-12-25", "guest": "J D Mcpherson", "title": "A roots and rockabilly holiday concert with JD McPherson and his band", "question_index": 25, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Ann Marie Baldonado, Therese Madden, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross and all of us at FRESH AIR wish you a merry Christmas.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Our pleasure."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. This week, we're featuring some of our favorite interviews of the year. Today, we hear from musician Allison Russell, who sings original songs in a powerful voice that rings out. Some of her songs are about a subject that many people feel they have to keep secret. She was physically and sexually abused by her adoptive father through her childhood until she left home at age 15. She has a song about one night when she was in high school and had to escape him. She ran to the home of her girlfriend, her first love, and tapped on her window, asking to be let in. As we learn in other songs, some nights she escaped him by sleeping in the park, in a cemetery or sheltering in a cathedral. She also has songs about learning she's capable of being loved and reentering her body after having had to mentally detach from it to survive. Her mother is white. Her biological father is Black. And her adoptive father is a white racist. She sings about that, too. After performing in bands for many years, she now records under her own name. Her first solo album, \"Outside Child,\" released in 2021, won a Juno Award - the Canadian equivalent of a Grammy - for contemporary roots album of the year. Russell grew up in Montreal. Her latest album, \"The Returner,\" is currently nominated for four Grammys. When we spoke in September, Russell sang some of her songs for us, but we started with the opening track of \"The Returner.\" The lyric is about saying goodbye to her traumatic past. The song is called \"Springtime.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 1, "text": "That's \"Springtime\" from Allison Russell's new album, \"The Returner.\" Allison Russell, it is such a pleasure to have you on the show. I love your voice, and I love your songs. Thank you so much for being here.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) So long. Farewell. Adieu, adieu. So long. Farewell. Adieu, adieu. To that tunnel I went through. To that tunnel I went through. And my reward, my recompense? My reward, my recompense? Spring"}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 2, "text": "That song is about learning to live in your body again after having to dissociate from it when you were abused. How did you start writing such personal songs, sharing your story about being abused by your stepfather who became your adoptive father?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Did you keep it a secret because you wanted to, or did your father threaten you that if you said anything to anyone, you would face severe consequences?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it's survival, in a sense. You know, it's - and it's also reclamation. And it's a way to - I was trained to silence, you know? I was conditioned to continually lie. And so, for me, break"}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 4, "text": "I have never heard a story like that where you were trained from the age of 5 to play court. And what's really interesting about that, too, is that later, you actually testified in court against your father after your parents took custody of your niece and nephew, who you were very close to, and you learned that your father was alone with them or at least with one of them. So after being trained to, like, lie in court, what was it like for you to actually testify against him so that he would not have custody?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I was threatened. And I was also sort of brainwashed over many years. Things like playing court, where after a violation he would have me play court where he would pretend to be, you know, a poli"}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 5, "text": "I could imagine 'cause he told you here's what you have to say, and you totally defied him...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, luckily for me, I never actually had to testify. I charged him, and the investigators did such an excellent job of finding, unfortunately, other women that he had abused. The case was not just m"}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 6, "text": "...And brought him down for that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yeah. Right. So I want to play another song, and this might be my favorite song on the album, although it's hard to choose a favorite with so many good songs. But it's called \"Demons,\" and it's really about exorcising those demons and how they don't like sunlight. When you sing the word demons in the chorus, you sound possessed. Can you - before we hear it, can you describe writing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Held him accountable."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 8, "text": "So let's hear it. This is Allison Russell from her new album, \"The Returner.\" The song is \"Demons.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was actually joyful to write it. It was quite playful to write it. I'm playing with a lot of different imagery. The idea that, first of all, Black women, queer women, queer people have been d"}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 9, "text": "That was Allison Russell from her new album, \"The Returner.\" And the song is called \"Demons.\" I just love how you sound on that, and I love the song. So what was the meaning of \"Demons\" to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Demons. Demons. Demons. Demons. Coming up from behind. Demons. Demons. Demons. Demons. Been there all my life. Demons. Demons. Demons. Demons. Surely can't outride 'em. Oh, turn around. Look"}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 10, "text": "To escape your abusive father, you slept in a cemetery, in - you shelter in a cathedral. You slept in a park. Did you feel safe?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To me, \"Demons\" is so layered. It's the inner demons. It's the ways that we are demonized unfairly. Moving through the world as a queer Black woman, I have experienced a lot of that. I've been, you kn"}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 11, "text": "I want to point out you grew up in Montreal. It gets cold there...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, strangely, I felt so much safer sleeping in the cemetery than I ever did in the home of the people that called themselves my family. And I was so lucky to be in Montreal. You know, that city"}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 12, "text": "...Really cold.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it does."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 13, "text": "So you can only sleep outside for a certain...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Exactly."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 14, "text": "...Time of year.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 15, "text": "But really, when you were sleeping in a cemetery surrounded by graves - some people are just spooked in sunlight in a cemetery. Did you feel comfortable there? Did you have a hiding place?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 16, "text": "All right. Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Allison Russell. Her new album is called \"The Returner.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I felt so comfortable. I mean, the Mount Royal Cemetery is so beautiful. It's, like, a nature preserve, as well. So there's - you know, you are surrounded by trees and grass. It's incredibly peaceful."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Allison Russell. Her new album is called \"The Returner.\" Allison, your father - your biological father - was Black and from Grenada. You never met him until you were 30. Your mother was a teenager. She was 17 when she had you. And then your stepfather became your adoptive father after she married him when you were in foster care. Your adoptive father was a white racist. What message did he give you about being Black?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I felt so comfortable. I mean, the Mount Royal Cemetery is so beautiful. It's, like, a nature preserve, as well. So there's - you know, you are surrounded by trees and grass. It's incredibly peaceful."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 18, "text": "I want you to play a song for us. You brought your banjo with you. It's one of the instruments you play. You also play clarinet and guitar. So \"Eve Was Black\" is about what we've been talking about. So would you - before you play it, would you talk to us about writing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That I was less than human and that I was lucky to be raised by him because I didn't have the disadvantage of being raised within Black culture. These are his words, obviously, not mine. You know, he "}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 19, "text": "One of the lines in this song that we're about to hear is, do you hate, or do you lust? And I kind of think you gave us the answer...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It started off as a poem and then slowly evolved into a song. And my dear chosen sisters, SistaStrings, help me with the first iteration of it. And it became clear to me that it lived in the world of "}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 20, "text": "...Already.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 21, "text": "He did both.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 22, "text": "He hated, and he lusted.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 23, "text": "And he was able to fulfill that lust with you because of how much he hated Black people and saw them as less than human. So would you play \"Eve Was Black\" for us? And I'm going to ask you to just do an excerpt because there's so much I want to squeeze into this interview.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Thank you, Allison. That is a powerful song. And I should mention that the recorded version of that song is on her new album, \"The Returner.\" So your adoptive father was from a sundown town in the U.S., and a sundown town was a town where Black people are told you can't be here after the sun goes down. Where did he grow up? Like, what city? What state?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Happy to. (Singing) Eve was Black. Haven't you heard? The mother of all was dark and good. Eve was Black. Didn't you know? Is that why you hate my Black skin so? Is that why you hate my Black sk"}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 25, "text": "There's just one other thing I want to mention about him - is that I don't know when this was, but after you had moved far away, a woman came forward and accused him of sexually assaulting her, and he did time for it. I think he was sentenced for three years.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He grew up in Indiana. In White County, Ind. I'm not sure of the exact - I know the family moved around a lot."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 26, "text": "Oh, that's how it happened. So it was through you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so I charged him. And during the investigative process, the reason I didn't have to go to court was because the investigator did a very thorough and good job and found other women that he had ab"}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 27, "text": "Good for you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Through the investigation. Correct."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 28, "text": "So did he serve the whole three years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 29, "text": "Do you know if he has, in fact, reoffended?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He did. He could have been out in nine months with - if they had granted his first parole, but the prison psychiatrist believed that he was a high risk of reoffending and so recommended that he serve "}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 30, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Allison Russell. Her new album is called \"The Returner.\" We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I really hope not. I know that he is now - you know, he is on a list of sex offenders. He has to check in with the police. He's not allowed to be unsupervised with children. So I have high hopes that "}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 31, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to one of our favorite interviews from 2023, my interview with songwriter, singer and musician Allison Russell. Her first solo album, \"Outside Child,\" was released in 2021 and had several songs about being abused by her adoptive father throughout her childhood. She left home when she was 15. Her first album, \"Outside Child,\" won the Americana award for album of the year. Russell's latest album, \"The Returner,\" is currently nominated for four Grammys. The album has several songs about healing from the pain of her childhood and casting out the demons. I want to play another song, and this is another of my favorites, and this is from your first album - your first solo album - and that album is called \"Outside Child.\" The song is called \"Persephone.\" And this is a song about a night you had to escape your adoptive father when you were in high school. And so you tapped on the window of your girlfriend, your first love, and asked her to let you in because if you stayed home, you thought your adoptive father may have killed you. And in the lyric, you sing, blood on my shirt, two ripped buttons, might have killed me that time if I let him. Nowhere to go and had to get away from him. So these - I'm quoting these a little out of context, but those are things - some of the things you say in the lyric. So let's hear it, and then we'll talk about it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Now I let go everything that I've known. Let it go on. Let it roll out with the tide. I can't think of a thing that hasn't been shot through with pain. Like a nightingale's song in the dead "}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 32, "text": "That was \"Persephone\" from my guest Allison Russell's first album, which is called \"Outside Child.\" That is such a catchy song and so troubling at the same time. And I'm wondering, did your father know you had a girlfriend?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Blood on my shirt, two ripped buttons. Might\u2019ve killed me that time, oh, if I\u2019d let him. He\u2019s slow when he\u2019s drunk, and he lost his grip on me. Now I\u2019m running down La Rue St. Paul trying to"}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 33, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, because he would tap - wiretap the phone in our house. And this was, you know..."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 34, "text": "As if things...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Back in the day..."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 35, "text": "...Weren't bad enough.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...When we had landlines."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 36, "text": "What was your father's reaction - your adoptive father's reaction to knowing you had a girlfriend?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So, yeah, he knew. I - it's funny - to me, it's a joyful song. You're right. It start - the first stanza is disturbing because it is being, you know, clear about the abuse that was occurring. Bu"}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 37, "text": "I can imagine the fury was on two levels. One, that he had competition 'cause he probably felt like he owned your body but also competition from a girl.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Fury. And I left home very shortly thereafter."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 38, "text": "Were you in foster care? Is that what you're talking about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I think that, yeah, he certainly is someone who his violence is directed at women. But also, I wasn't fully human to him. I mean, this was a man raised in a sundown town, born in 1936, who b"}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 39, "text": "And why were you there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I was in foster care for three years before I went back to live with my mother and her new husband."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 40, "text": "What kind of harmful?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because my mother was a teenager when she had me and had no support. And in those days of the early '80s in Catholic Quebec, to be an unwed mother - to be an unwed white mother with a Black child was "}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 41, "text": "Was she abused by your adoptive father?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hitting me. You know, burned a cigarette on my skin one time. You know, doing things that were inappropriate, leaving a baby alone for hours and hours."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 42, "text": "Is that, do you think, why she didn't intervene? 'Cause she was such a victim, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 43, "text": "Are they - are your parents still married?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I - you know, I think there's a lot of layers. I think she was suffering from sort of a doublethink, as well. And yes, she was also a victim herself. She was not - she's also not - you know, I"}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 44, "text": "Do you keep in touch with them at all?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They are. Yep. She still lives with him."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 45, "text": "How did you survive being traumatized by both of your parents?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I keep in touch with my mother, but I don't have contact with my adoptive father."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 46, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Music, I think."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 47, "text": "I'm sorry. This is so horrifying. I'm so glad you survived it. And you're also giving us the gift of your music. It's remarkable.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Music and art. I mean, my earliest childhood memories that don't involve trauma involve music. And music was always how I felt love and how I felt safe and how I translated anything that was scary or "}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 48, "text": "When you left Montreal to get away from your parents, you moved to Vancouver, which is kind of as far away as you can get in Canada from where you grew up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, music is the healer, you know? And children, I think, are incredibly resilient. And we find - we look and find goodness. And I was lucky in that I had a grandmother who was loving. You know, I h"}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 49, "text": "And you started, I think, like, in the folk music scene. And one of your instruments, as we heard, is banjo. Did you feel like that was going to be your home, more, like, folk-oriented music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 50, "text": "What", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, to me, I have a broader definition of folk and Americana probably than most people. I think that it is a kind of - such a vast umbrella. It encompasses every genre of song, really. And"}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 51, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, to me, I have a broader definition of folk and Americana probably than most people. I think that it is a kind of - such a vast umbrella. It encompasses every genre of song, really. And"}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 52, "text": "Right. And your band is called the Rainbow...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Kermit the Frog. I didn't know anything about the Black diaspora, growing up with white supremacists. I didn't know anything about the cultural heritage connection of the banjo being, you know, the - "}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 53, "text": "The Rainbow Coalition. Yeah, yeah, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Coalition."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 54, "text": "Is that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's a nod to both..."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 55, "text": "Congratulations on probably being the only person ever to bring together Fred Hampton and Kermit in one tribute.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Jim Henson, Kermit the Frog and, of course, Fred Hampton and the Black Panthers, who were able to form an incredibly healing, harm-reducing coalition between the Black Panthers, the Young Lords, wh"}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 56, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Allison Russell, and her new album is called \"The Returner.\" We have more music and conversation coming up after a very short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that they're very closely related in spirit. I really do."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 57, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Allison Russell, a great singer and songwriter whose new album is called \"The Returner.\" So you write songs with your husband. And I'm interested in what that process is like. And I should say, in case people are confused, you identify as queer and eventually married your husband.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that they're very closely related in spirit. I really do."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 58, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think, sometimes, people get confused about orientation and commitment."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 59, "text": "Well put.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's like, when you - when a straight person gets married, they're still straight. When a queer person gets married, they're still queer. You know what I mean?"}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 60, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's just what it is. But it turned out - no one was more surprised than I when I ended up falling in love with a man - a straight man - a straight white man."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 61, "text": "OK. I want you to sing another song for us, if that's OK with you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All of these things were surprising, but JT has a very strong inner goddess, so..."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 62, "text": "And it's a song called \"You're Not Alone,\" and it was released as a single with Brandi Carlile. And to me, this sounds like a song that's, in part, dedicated to your daughter but also dedicated to everybody who is a survivor of abuse and to all the children who are enduring it now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd be happy to."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 63, "text": "Would you sing \"You're Not Alone\" for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is all of that, but it's really for all of us. In fact, we're all survivors. We're all returners of some kind. There's not a human on the planet that gets out of this life without experiencing trau"}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 64, "text": "Thank you for doing that. Did you write that with Brandi Carlile, who duets with you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, be happy to. (Playing banjo, singing) Hey, my little evening star, how bright you are. Anywhere you go, you're not alone. Wish that I could keep you from sorrow and harm. None of us is here for "}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 65, "text": "...On the recording?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No..."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 66, "text": "Oh...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I wrote it on my own, and I actually wrote it during the \"Songs Of Our Native Daughters\" sessions. And it was originally - I originally recorded it with Our Native Daughters - Rhiannon Giddens, Amy"}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 67, "text": "...OK. You know, when I first heard you sing, I thought of Rhiannon Giddens because I felt like there was a similarity in your voices. And then I learned that you had actually performed together and recorded together.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 68, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. She's my chosen sister. I love her deeply."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 69, "text": "Good, good, good. So you're the mother of a daughter named Ida who is how old?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We've been friends - very, very close friends and chosen sisters since 2006."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 70, "text": "Did you always want to be a mother, or growing up with the parents that you did, did you not want to have a - you know, a nuclear family?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She's 9 years old now."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 71, "text": "What were your fears about becoming a mother?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I never, ever, ever thought I would become a mother. In fact, I emphatically believed I would not. And Ida was a joyful accident. She was a birth control pill fail. I'm here to tell all of you that bi"}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 72, "text": "And none of that happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That I would have a psychotic break, that I would, you know, somehow repeat the abuses of my childhood, that I wouldn't be able to break the cycles of abuse, that I wouldn't be a worthy mother, that I"}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 73, "text": "You met your biological father, who is Black and from Grenada, when you were 30. What was it like to meet him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No. It was the most joyful pregnancy. I am very, very - it was very - it was a joyful birth. You know, we - it was - and she's just a miraculous being. And I'm so grateful to be her mother."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 74, "text": "And is he, like, a really big contrast to the father who raised you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was really surreal. And in the end, very, very joyful. I look very much like him. I sound very much like him. We have similar personalities. It was a really - a real lesson in nurture, sure, but na"}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 75, "text": "My understanding is, from what I've read, that your mother, when she became pregnant, never told your biological father.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Complete contrast. He is the furthest thing from abusive. He is loving. He has a wonderful wife. I now have a wonderful stepmother, Ida's Nana, Tessa, who - they've been together since I was 2 years o"}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 76, "text": "He must have been very surprised to hear from you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not right away, no. Not until it was too late, I guess. And she told him that she'd given me up for adoption, which was not true. When I went into foster care, she told him that she had given me up in"}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 77, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Allison Russell. Her new album is called \"The Returner.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that, you know, it's an interesting thing. My siblings - my paternal siblings grew up knowing that I existed. He talked about me to his whole family. You know, they grew up knowing they had a "}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 78, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Allison Russell. Her new album is called \"The Returner.\" You probably don't know the answer to this, but what do you think your adoptive father's reaction is to your songs about how he abused you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Hey, hey, hey, hey."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 79, "text": "Right. I guess you can forgive him without contacting him, forgive him in your heart...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know if he's listened to them or not, and I have never inquired from my mother. I don't - I'm not that interested, to be honest. And, you know, there's - I'm struggling right now with what tru"}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 80, "text": "...But not have to talk with him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 81, "text": "I want to close with a song that's the final track, and that seems fitting, from your new album, \"The Returner.\" And this is called \"Requiem.\" And would you tell us about writing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I do have forgiveness and understanding of the fact that this is also - I mean, everyone is still a child in their spirit, right? He was a very severely abused child himself, and he paid that "}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 82, "text": "And the backup singers on this track include Wendy & Lisa, famous from Prince's band, and Brandi Carlile.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. JT and I wrote this one. We were very much feeling rocked by the violence in schools - the gun violence in schools. We were thinking about the parents that have to survive their children, which "}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 83, "text": "Yeah, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Brandy Clark and Hozier, as well."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 84, "text": "Right, right. Your band. Well, before we hear it, I just want to say thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, of course, all the women in the Rainbow Coalition."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 85, "text": "Thank you so much. It was so great to talk with you and to hear you sing in our studio. And your music's just wonderful, and I'm grateful for it. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 86, "text": "So here's Allison Russell from the final track of her new album, \"The Returner.\" And the track is called \"Requiem.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's such an honor speaking with you. Thank you."}
{"id": "1220419604", "date": "2023-12-26", "guest": "Allison Russell", "title": "Canadian singer-songwriter Allison Russell plays tracks from 'The Returner'", "question_index": 87, "text": "That's \"Requiem\" from Allison Russell's new album, \"The Returner, currently nominated for four Grammys. The awards ceremony is February 4. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we continue our holiday week series featuring same our favorite interviews of the year. We'll hear Tanya's interview with Brooke Shields. She reflected on how she was sexually objectified as a child and teenager in films like \"Pretty Baby,\" in which she played a child prostitute, \"Blue Lagoon\" and in ads for Calvin Klein jeans. The 58-year-old actress is the subject of this year's documentary \"Pretty Baby.\" Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Ann Marie Baldonado, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Therese Madden directed today's show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Oh, I know your way is hard to see today. Bullets, they fly faster than mother's lullabies. And the sparrows cannot sing, for it is theirs to bring the souls of those lost babies back to the"}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Happy New Year. Today, we conclude our series featuring some of our favorite interviews of 2023 with on the bestselling recording artists of all time, Barbra Streisand. This was my second opportunity to interview Streisand. We spoke in November.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 1, "text": "Before the Broadway musical \"Funny Girl\" turned my guest, Barbra Streisand, into a star, she was getting a lot of attention in 1962 for her nightclub act and for her show-stopping comedic number in the then-new Broadway musical, \"I Can Get It For You Wholesale.\" That led to her being booked on \"The Garry Moore Show,\" which, at the time, was a popular TV variety show. Here's how she was introduced by Garry Moore in 1962.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 2, "text": "After that introduction, Streisand performed what became one of her signature songs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, one of the biggest thrills for a guy who's been around in this business as long as I have is the advent of a bright, new, young star. Several weeks ago, a very talented 19-year-old newcomer "}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 3, "text": "Barbra Streisand has a new memoir called \"My Name Is Barbra.\" Her career got off to a rocketing start. In 1964, she won two Grammys for her first album, \"The Barbra Streisand Album.\" She was nominated for Tonys for her two Broadway shows. Her first Oscar was for the film adaptation of \"Funny Girl.\" She became one of the bestselling recording artists of all time. In 1983, when \"Yentl\" was released, she became the first woman to write, produce, direct and star in a major studio film. A new 40th anniversary release of the \"Yentl\" soundtrack includes two discs. The second is largely devoted to demo recordings featuring Streisand. She recorded her end of our interview from her home. Barbra Streisand, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Congratulations on the book. It is an honor to have you back on the show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Happy days are here again. The skies above are clear again. Let us sing a song of cheer again. Happy days are here again."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 4, "text": "Your memoir starts with how early articles about you focused on your nose. Why did you want to start with your nose? It's a 900-page book. Why start with your nose?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much, Terry. Thank you."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 5, "text": "I don't know. I didn't write the book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what would you have started with?"}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yeah. Yeah. You initially - well, you decided you weren't going to get it fixed, in part because you were worried it would affect your voice, and for good reason, probably.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's what I mean. I had to get their attention, you know, and it was also true. I mean, the articles about me that I remember were - you know, I had a researcher that researched me because I n"}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 7, "text": "Early on, when you were starting out, you performed at the Bon Soir, which you describe as a sophisticated nightclub in Greenwich Village. And there's a - you did a live recording from the club that was never released in 1962 when it was recorded, but it was released last year in a remastered version. So to talk about your early career - very early career, I want to play a track from that. And I thought we'd hear \"Keepin' Out Of Mischief Now,\" 'cause it's quite delightful. So here it is - Barbra Streisand live in 1962.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. The - my first instinct was that I liked my bump, and people would say, well, you know, you should have your bump removed or something. Why would I remove my bump? And I was - I just had a probl"}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 8, "text": "That was Barbra Streisand, recorded in 1962 at the club the Bon Soir. You wanted to be a dramatic actor at first. Why did you think of singing as secondary to drama?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Keepin' out of mischief now. I really am in love and how. I'm through playing with fire. It's you whom I desire. All the world can plainly see you're the only one for me. I have told them in"}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 9, "text": "And cheap", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "'Cause I wanted to be on the stage and play, you know, Juliet and \"A Doll's House,\" whatever. You know, Ibsen, Chekhov, Shakespeare. And to sing, to me, in a nightclub was not what I imagined my caree"}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 10, "text": ". Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "'Cause I wanted to be on the stage and play, you know, Juliet and \"A Doll's House,\" whatever. You know, Ibsen, Chekhov, Shakespeare. And to sing, to me, in a nightclub was not what I imagined my caree"}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 11, "text": "What?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And cheap. Beautiful sequins and gorgeous buckles on the shoes and, you know, from the 1920s. And the top I wore the opening night, it was from 1890."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 12, "text": "And you got these at thrift stores?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, the craftsmanship, the boning."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 13, "text": "Wow. How did you realize you should try Broadway musicals? So you wanted to be a dramatic actor. Then you started singing at a club. And then, of course, you started auditioning.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course. Yeah."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 14, "text": "So you kept auditioning, and you got a part in \"I Can Get It For You Wholesale,\" which was, you know, a musical comedy on Broadway.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I went to acting classes where I could play the roles I wanted to play. My first acting class when I was 14, taking the train from Brooklyn to Manhattan - and I tried out for the Actors Studio when I "}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 15, "text": "Yeah. She's a secretary. So you wanted to be in, like, a secretarial chair on wheels.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had a wonderful, serendipitous - is that such a thing, a word? Serendipitous, yeah. I had a wonderful agent who saw me in \"Another Evening With Harry Stoones,\" a little off-Broadway play that lasted"}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 16, "text": "Yeah. Well, what happened to the chairs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, but they didn't have a secretarial chair. But my vision of it was that I would sing the song in a secretarial chair. So, again, you know, it's logic. It's like, I got the job. And then when we s"}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 17, "text": "You kept persisting, like, this is how it should be, and you won.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 18, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's the point."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 19, "text": "Because you were just like - what? - standing around while other people were on stage, too. You were just standing and singing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The point is I always had these visions of the way things should be, but I also believed in trying to do, to the best of my ability, what the director wanted. I mean, I really tried to make it work fo"}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 20, "text": "Why don't we hear it? So this is \"Miss Marmelstein\" from 1962 cast recording of \"I Can Get It For You Wholesale,\" featuring my guest, Barbra Streisand, who has a brand-new memoir.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It just didn't feel right. And finally, right before we went to Philadelphia - I think that was first - Philadelphia and then Boston. Philadelphia - you know, they said - he said, do it in your "}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 21, "text": "UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character) Miss Marmelstein. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As character) Miss Marmelstein. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #3: (As character) Miss Marmelstein. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #4: (As character) Miss Marmelstein. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #5: (As character) Miss Marmelstein. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #6: (As character) Miss Marmelstein. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #7: (As character) Miss Marmelstein. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #8: (As character) Miss Marmelstein.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It just didn't feel right. And finally, right before we went to Philadelphia - I think that was first - Philadelphia and then Boston. Philadelphia - you know, they said - he said, do it in your "}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 22, "text": "That's Barbra Streisand in the 1962 original cast recording of \"I Can Get It For You Wholesale.\" That is just delightful.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Miss Marmelstein, singing) Oh, I could die."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 23, "text": "And it...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's - it worked."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 24, "text": "Yeah. It's interesting. Like, you wanted to do dramatic acting. And so, like, your big breakthrough is in a musical comedy. But you were already doing comedic songs, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was happy about that."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 25, "text": "Yeah. Why do you think that is? I mean, when you wanted to be a dramatic actress, what kind of roles did you think you'd get? Because when you were young and going to movies to escape being home, basically, you thought to yourself, the girls on screen don't look like me. And they probably didn't, you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't get the jobs of the straight shows."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 26, "text": "Yeah. So what were you expecting to get initially?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, they didn't. They didn't. I mean the stars anyway."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 27, "text": "Well, you got to play a secretary. That's close.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wow. I just somehow always saw my future. I can't explain that to you. Maybe it was my mother's negativity. I don't know if it was like, I'll prove you wrong - 'cause she kept telling me to get a job "}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 28, "text": "And your mother wanted to be a singer, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I sure did. I sure did. I think it's hard for, sometimes, parents who would have loved a career for themselves to have their kids become what they wanted to be."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 29, "text": "Well, let's take a break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Barbra Streisand, and she has a new memoir, which is called \"My Name Is Barbra.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. She had a beautiful voice, my mother."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 30, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Barbra Streisand. She's speaking to us from her home, and she has a new memoir, which is called \"My Name Is Barbra.\" You know, you write that Elliott Gould, who you met, I think, at the auditions for \"I Can Get It For You Wholesale,\" you know, became your husband. And he developed quite a gambling habit.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. She had a beautiful voice, my mother."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 31, "text": "Did you know it during \"Funny Girl\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Which I didn't know for a long time. I didn't know it."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 32, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't know it at first, that he really had a gambling habit. But it was surprising when I did find out. And then was part of the reason we broke up, but not really. You know, we were both young..."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 33, "text": "When you were in \"Funny Girl,\" were you able to take liberties with the songs, like - and did that change over time? Were you able to take more liberties as time went on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And it was sweet. I mean, he - that first day that I auditioned for \"I Can Get If You Wholesale,\" I gave people my telephone number, said, you know, somebody please call me. It's like, I just got m"}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 34, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In how I sang the songs every night?"}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 35, "text": "Because you want to be in the moment.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, gosh, I had the most wonderful conductor. And he said - you know, he would say things like, tonight, you really wanted to speed it up, right? He was right with me, like the great conductors who kn"}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 36, "text": "Does this get back to you being shy and - like, there's two sides to you. There's the side that's going to, like, keep pushing for what you want no matter what, no matter how famous the director is or, you know, whoever. You're going to push for what you think is right. And at the same time, the other side of you feels very, like, shy, very vulnerable, kind of fragile.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. I want to play with it, play with the music, you know, rephrase it depending on how I felt that night. That's what I think keeps a performance honest. You can't just copy what you did fr"}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 37, "text": "So those are, like, two totally opposite things. Do you feel, like, at war with yourself sometimes, like, wanting to push and also feeling very vulnerable at the same time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Right."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 38, "text": "So I want to play a song from the original cast recording of \"Funny Girl.\" And I think we played \"People\" the last time you were on the show. And so I was thinking of \"Who Are You Now?\" It's really beautiful. It's not a song as well known.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, usually, they don't happen at the same time. Usually, it's like, no, I have a vision of this, and this is what it has to be, like doing - you know, directing my first film, \"Yentl.\" I mean, this"}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 39, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very pretty song. Yeah."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 40, "text": "But it's a beautiful song. Do you want to say anything about the song and what this song means to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very pretty. Yeah."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 41, "text": "Good. Let's hear it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was just a wonderful melody and a wonderful lyric. I mean, who are you now? - how people change in marriages. Or do they or don't they? Or how they grow, hopefully together, or how they don't. I lo"}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 42, "text": "That was Barbra Streisand from the original cast recording of \"Funny Girl.\" Let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Barbra Streisand, and she has a new memoir, which is called \"My Name Is Barbra.\" We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Who are you now, now that you're mine? Are you something more than you were before? Are you warmer in the rain? Are you stronger for my touch? Am I giving too little by my loving you too muc"}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 43, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Barbra Streisand. She has a new memoir called \"My Name Is Barbra.\" So I want to change the subject a little bit. When did you realize that you'd become a gay icon?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Who are you now, now that you're mine? Are you something more than you were before? Are you warmer in the rain? Are you stronger for my touch? Am I giving too little by my loving you too muc"}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 44, "text": "Why do you think you became a gay...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think quite early on."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 45, "text": "So you met your first husband, Elliott Gould, at auditions for \"I Can Get It for You Wholesale.\" So then in your second show in \"Funny Girl,\" you starred opposite Sydney Chaplin, who was Charlie Chaplin's son. He's no longer alive. And you started to think you were falling in love with him because he was falling in love with you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have no idea. 'Cause I could be imitated? 'Cause I had a certain rebel quality, a certain thing that was different? That they felt when I sang, that it was about heartbreak, and, you know, a lot of "}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 46, "text": "Explain.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That's flattering. It was flattering. And, you know, that's an occupational hazard sometimes..."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 47, "text": "You called it off. And then...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...With actors and actresses. Well, you're playing a part. And then to get to feel something about the person that you're playing with, you sometimes get a crush. And he was very attentive to me until"}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 48, "text": "...He kind of got back at you on stage in front of audiences. Tell us what he did.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 49, "text": "Like, cursing you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he would mumble under his breath while he was not even looking into my eyes. He was looking at my forehead and completely through me, like, saying curse words and..."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 50, "text": "You were really afraid you were going to throw up on stage.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. And I went into his dressing room after the show once or twice to beg him to stop doing that. You know, it's not feasible now. I want to be with my husband. You know, hopefully, you want to "}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 51, "text": "You write that this is what started your stage fright, that you hadn't had it before.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was - yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was timing how fast I could get to the bathroom, you know? And I - no, it was horrible. I almost was going to quit, but I'm not a quitter. They - finally, they begged"}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 52, "text": "You never did Broadway again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's true."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 53, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I never did Broadway..."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 54, "text": "Was that because of Sydney Chaplin? Do you think if it wasn't for that, that you would have wanted to be in more Broadway shows?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Again. Right."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 55, "text": "So, you know, I'm just thinking, like, you have been so brave in pushing for what you think is right in terms of a scene, a performance, the way a song should be interpreted, the lighting, your hair, which side of your face you want to be photographed. But then you started developing these phobias about performing - you know, performing live. So I guess I find it a little hard to square the phobias with the side of you that is so determined and certain. But did the phobias really get to you? Like, did it change your image of yourself to be afraid of one of the things that you do best, which is just, like, performing live, being on stage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not really. I just fell in love with film. I fell in love with doing a scene once or five times or whatever it was in a day or two, and it's over. You don't have to do the same show, say the same word"}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 56, "text": "Yeah. You had a monologue, but instead of doing a monologue, you pretended like you were talking to, you know, three...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sometimes, I felt like a clown. Like, walk back and forth 'cause you have to hit this side of the audience or that side. You know, you have to walk. And then I have back problems. Then my feet started"}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 57, "text": "...Therapists.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Different therapists."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 58, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 59, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I had had a woman, I had had an older man. I had had a medium-sized man. But in other words, developing it, designing it is the most exciting part to me..."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 60, "text": "You credited some of your insecurities to your mother who was always criticizing you. And I want you to name some of her more memorable and cutting criticisms. I'll start with my favorite of the ones that you mention in the book - is that she used to send you bad reviews. And when you'd say, why are you sending this to me? - she'd say, you need to know about this. Don't get a swelled head. That's pretty destructive, considering how sensitive you are about some things. So what are some of your most memorable criticisms she made of you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Not doing it. But I did - that - see, in the movies, I loved making the movies I directed because it's so interesting. Yeah."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 61, "text": "What's a guggle muggle?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, God. Well, when I first allowed her to, she came the second night when I was at the Bon Soir. My mother, the first thing she said - I remember - was, your voice needs eggs. You have to use a guggl"}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 62, "text": "So your mother was very critical of you. Your father died when you were 15 months old, so you never really got to know him. Your stepfather you describe as not physically abusive but emotionally abusive. What did he...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A guggle muggle was you - she made hot kind of chocolate and put a raw egg in it, which I could never swallow. My mother came twice, once to see me as a singer and once to see me as an actress. When I"}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 63, "text": "Right. Let's talk about music. So you are very brave. You a couple of times asked Stephen Sondheim to add a lyric or change a lyric for you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He never saw me. He never talked to me. Literally, I can say to you, I don't remember a sentence or even a word hello. It was like I wasn't seen. It's like I vanished in front of him. He would not tal"}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 64, "text": "And so I want to ask you about \"Send In The Clowns.\" In the show that that's from, \"A Little Night Music,\" you know, it's about a couple who - he was in love with her, and then by the time she's in love with him, he's kind of married so is no longer available. And, you know, years pass. So anyways, in the song, you thought that since it wasn't done in the context of the show, that people wouldn't get what the lyrics were really about.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 65, "text": "So you asked Sondheim to add...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. You got it."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 66, "text": "...A second bridge to kind of explain what was happening. How did you have the nerve to ask Sondheim", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Another - a second bridge."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 67, "text": "to write something for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Another - a second bridge."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 68, "text": "Right. Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know what? Because I knew him. He had a strange mother, like I did, who didn't believe in him."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 69, "text": "So what did you think of the bridge that he wrote for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And therefore, I could talk truth to him. I know who he is. And I know that he's always - like me, in a sense - looking for something even better than what you did before. You know what I mean? I mean"}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 70, "text": "Yeah. It's good. It's good.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Loved it."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 71, "text": "So we're going to be hearing a little more than just the part that Sondheim wrote for you. So I want to point out to our listeners which is that part, in case they're not that familiar with the lyrics. So it's the part - the part that he wrote for you is the part that starts, what a surprise. Who could foresee I'd come to feel about you what you felt about me? So it's those two lines plus two other lines. OK, so here we go. This is Barbra Streisand.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Loved it, loved it. I didn't even know - 'cause I don't remember seeing that show. Or if I did, maybe I left at intermission. But I don't remember - I didn't remember the story. And then when he told "}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 72, "text": "That's Barbra Streisand with an extra bridge written for her at her request by Stephen Sondheim. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Don't you love farce? My fault, I fear. I thought that you'd want what I want. Sorry, my dear. But where are the clowns? There ought to be clowns. Quick, send in the clowns. What a surprise."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 73, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Barbra Streisand. She's speaking to us from her home, and she has a new memoir, which is called \"My Name Is Barbra.\" So another song I want to ask you about - and this is one of the songs you're most famous for - is \"The Way We Were,\" which is the title song from the movie of the same name which starred you and Robert Redford. And you say originally, the song was composed with the melody going down in notes instead of going up in notes. So I'm wondering why it struck you as not being right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Don't you love farce? My fault, I fear. I thought that you'd want what I want. Sorry, my dear. But where are the clowns? There ought to be clowns. Quick, send in the clowns. What a surprise."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 74, "text": "I'm forgetting who composed the melody.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, again, you see, these are mystical things. They're magical things. They're one me. I can't describe it to you. It's why I could write \"Evergreen,\" 'cause I hear it in my head. I hear it, and the"}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 75, "text": "Marvin Hamlisch. Well, so what did Marvin Hamlisch think when you said, by the way, you know, I think the melody should be with the notes heading upward instead of down? Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, Marvin Hamlisch."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 76, "text": "Now, you know how you said when you're working without ego, you take suggestions? And I think because you have so many suggestions and you have such a strong vision in your mind of how things should be that a lot of people...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He said, good idea. I mean, when you work without ego, when it doesn't matter who says what, you just - when you know it's right, that's great collaboration."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 77, "text": "Or could be - that a lot of people perceive you as having a large, domineering ego. What's your...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Or it could be. Yeah."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 78, "text": "...Reaction to that? Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't think it's..."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 79, "text": "Oh, gosh. You know what that's reminding me of?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think it's ego, 'cause on the other hand, I'm not sure what I do. I'm not sure if this book is any good. I'm not sure if somebody tells me it's fabulous, I'll - you know, great. If they tell m"}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 80, "text": "After your first album came out, Arthur Laurents, who...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What?"}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 81, "text": "...Had directed you in \"I Can Get It For You Wholesale\" - he wrote you this, like, horrible letter saying, you know, you're a great singer, but this is too much. It's like putting the frosting on the icing on top of a cake. It's just - it's too much. And he said, but the ingredients are good. You know, the song is good. Your voice is great. But just, like, take off all of that - all that frosting and, you know, you're being too dramatic. And then you wrote him back saying, oh, you're so right. You know, no, I wasn't prepared. I...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 82, "text": "You topped him in criticisms. You just started tearing the record apart in your letter back to him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. I did the album in three days. Four songs, you know, each session. Twelve songs. I didn't know if it was that good. I mean, I didn't."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 83, "text": "So that - just one more time, I want to say that's another example of the combination of your having a vision and really wanting to do it a certain way and then being really insecure when...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That's right."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 84, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When it's done. Was that really good? I could - I don't know."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 85, "text": "Right. When she...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My editor keeps saying to me, the book is really good. I say, really? Is it really? You know what I'm saying. I have two sides of me, and one helps the other. No, I don't have a swelled head. My mothe"}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 86, "text": "...Put you down.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know?"}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 87, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When she put me down, I..."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 88, "text": "Thank you for enduring the ordeal of being interviewed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I'm not that interested in myself again. So I love being interested in grandchildren - my grandchildren."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 89, "text": "I appreciate it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank..."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 90, "text": "That you wrote the book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You, Terry, for - you know, this is 10 years we're talking about."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 91, "text": "Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "More than 10 years..."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 92, "text": "Oh, since you've been on the show. Yes. Well, like I said, it was great...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...That I talked to you."}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 93, "text": "...To have you back.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Can you imagine?"}
{"id": "1220427909", "date": "2024-01-01", "guest": "Garry Moore", "title": "Barbra Streisand shares her secret for keeping performances honest", "question_index": 94, "text": "Barbra Streisand's new memoir is called \"My Name Is Barbra.\" Our interview was recorded in November. And that concludes our holiday series featuring some of our favorite interviews of the year. Coming up, our book critic, Maureen Corrigan, reviews \"Prophet Song,\" a new novel set in the near future about the onset of fascism and tyranny by the Irish novelist Paul Lynch. It's the 2023 winner of the prestigious Booker Prize. Maureen says it's a masterpiece, horrifying yet lovely. That's after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "1223053461", "date": "2024-01-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Tom Smothers, TV pioneer and satirist", "question_index": 0, "text": "Well, one of the things that you both did were really long-winded introductions to the songs. And I was wondering if you thought it was overly serious of a lot of folk musicians to launch into the, you know, historical reasons and the ethnic reasons behind a song that they'd perform.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So I would go out there. And for some reason, I always would mimic people and it would be - we were known as satirists. I didn't even know what the word was until they said the Smothers Brothers"}
{"id": "1223053461", "date": "2024-01-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Tom Smothers, TV pioneer and satirist", "question_index": 1, "text": "Brownie McGhee.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The long-winded introductions was just the nature of folk music, and I found them very interesting. I never thought they were pompous or anything like that. And to tell a background of how a song just"}
{"id": "1223053461", "date": "2024-01-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Tom Smothers, TV pioneer and satirist", "question_index": 2, "text": "What were your alternatives? Did you have alternative plans if you didn't become performers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then \"Hava Nagila,\" where they danced around a hat. There was a - it was a rain dance, actually danced around the umbrella. And similar to how they danced around hats, the Mexicans, and prayed for"}
{"id": "1223053461", "date": "2024-01-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Tom Smothers, TV pioneer and satirist", "question_index": 3, "text": "So, Tom Smothers, what was your alternate plan if...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We never knew we were going to in a long term - maybe Tommy - he probably feels different. I always thought it was a summer job for quite - for about 10 years. I thought it was a summer job. And I nev"}
{"id": "1223053461", "date": "2024-01-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Tom Smothers, TV pioneer and satirist", "question_index": 4, "text": "The problem, I would expect, is if you play a jerk on stage, that off stage, people might think that you're dimwitted. You know, did that ever happen to you? - that people would assume, you know, off stage, that you had the persona?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I always wanted to be a comedian. And when I first saw George Gobel, who was my first influence when I was - anyway, 12, 13, 14 - he was doing \"The Ed Sullivan Show.\" I thought it was marvelous what t"}
{"id": "1223053461", "date": "2024-01-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Tom Smothers, TV pioneer and satirist", "question_index": 5, "text": "What about you, Dick Smothers? Did your persona on stage as the just more practical, down-to-earth persona apply to the role you really played in your relationship with your brother?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's that's very good performance because that's like being in really - crawling into the skin of the whatever character you choose. And that was the only one I had. And I was walking down the"}
{"id": "1223053461", "date": "2024-01-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Tom Smothers, TV pioneer and satirist", "question_index": 6, "text": "Well, they actually censored - deleted some of the performance excerpts.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So then instantly, once it was a hit, it was a surprise hit. It really was. Nobody predicted it. CBS wanted us to pull back, didn't want any controversy or anything, not realizing the content of the s"}
{"id": "1223053461", "date": "2024-01-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Tom Smothers, TV pioneer and satirist", "question_index": 7, "text": "How did that work? When would you have to deliver the show to them, so to speak?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was their legal right. And once they got it, they - I guess by the contracts and stuff, they could take out anything they wanted. But that's..."}
{"id": "1223053461", "date": "2024-01-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Tom Smothers, TV pioneer and satirist", "question_index": 8, "text": "What would you - you'd have to put something back in to replace it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So when they would say, we don't like this part here or say you must take that out or we will take it out, I'd say, well, I'll take it out. And it did take a long time to do it."}
{"id": "1223053461", "date": "2024-01-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Tom Smothers, TV pioneer and satirist", "question_index": 9, "text": "What had they taken out to put in the Nixon commercial?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, of course, I got furious."}
{"id": "1223053461", "date": "2024-01-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Tom Smothers, TV pioneer and satirist", "question_index": 10, "text": "David, welcome to FRESH AIR, and congratulations on the book.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're remembering Tom Smothers of the comedy duo the Smothers Brothers. He died last week at the age of 86. In 2009, I wrote a book about Tom and Dick titled \"Dangerously Funny: The"}
{"id": "1223053461", "date": "2024-01-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Tom Smothers, TV pioneer and satirist", "question_index": 11, "text": "Now, you've brought some really good clips with you from episodes of the Smothers Brothers' TV series. And I'd like to start with one 'cause I think it gives a good sense of the Smothers Brothers' comedy and also how they managed to bring politics into their show. So would you introduce it for us?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thanks a lot."}
{"id": "1223053461", "date": "2024-01-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Tom Smothers, TV pioneer and satirist", "question_index": 12, "text": "And this was President Johnson.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, sure. I like this 'cause it's a fairly early clip when the Smothers Brothers are still sort of considered to be, you know, just genial, nice folk satirists, and yet they're starting to hit on pu"}
{"id": "1223053461", "date": "2024-01-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Tom Smothers, TV pioneer and satirist", "question_index": 13, "text": "OK. So let's hear it.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is President Johnson at the time. Yes."}
{"id": "1223053461", "date": "2024-01-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Tom Smothers, TV pioneer and satirist", "question_index": 14, "text": "David, was that considered pretty radical at the time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he could quit."}
{"id": "1223053461", "date": "2024-01-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Tom Smothers, TV pioneer and satirist", "question_index": 15, "text": "David, you know so much about so many different TV shows. You're just, like, a walking encyclopedia of television. Of all the shows you could have written a history of, why did you choose the Smothers Brothers?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, for an entertainment variety show, almost unprecedented, where you had these figures that were actually talking about public policy. TV in the '60s - the Smothers Brothers began in February of '"}
{"id": "1223053461", "date": "2024-01-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Tom Smothers, TV pioneer and satirist", "question_index": 16, "text": "You mentioned you wanted to write this book in part because Tom Smothers fought and lost. And what he lost was the censorship battle. There was a considerable amount of censorship of the show, and he really took a stand, and he lost, and the show was taken off the air by the network, CBS. Let's talk a little bit about what censorship was like on TV then. And we're talking about the second half of the 1960s. What are some of the things you couldn't say then that you can say now?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This one - I wondered about that. This one, actually, I did once I was into it, and I was into, like, my fifth year of writing and my 10th year of writing. And I realized, I think this show, first of "}
{"id": "1223053461", "date": "2024-01-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Tom Smothers, TV pioneer and satirist", "question_index": 17, "text": "And there was the phrase in it - what is it - I feel in my heart beating in my breast? And they wouldn't let them say breast. So they ended up saying I feel my heart beating in my wrist", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, famously, when Lucille Ball was pregnant in real life and wrote it into her character in the '60s, she couldn't even use the word pregnant in the episode in which she was having a baby. They had"}
{"id": "1223053461", "date": "2024-01-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Tom Smothers, TV pioneer and satirist", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, famously, when Lucille Ball was pregnant in real life and wrote it into her character in the '60s, she couldn't even use the word pregnant in the episode in which she was having a baby. They had"}
{"id": "1223053461", "date": "2024-01-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Tom Smothers, TV pioneer and satirist", "question_index": 19, "text": "They didn't let that go on the air...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Beating wildly in my wrist. Yes. And they didn't even let that go."}
{"id": "1223053461", "date": "2024-01-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Tom Smothers, TV pioneer and satirist", "question_index": 20, "text": "...Either? All right. So - and drug references, you couldn't use those either.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1223053461", "date": "2024-01-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Tom Smothers, TV pioneer and satirist", "question_index": 21, "text": "George Harrison came on the show to support the Smothers Brothers in their fight for free speech on the show. And tell us a little bit about that appearance and then we'll hear a brief excerpt of it.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Terry Gross about the popular \"Smothers Brothers Comedy Hour,\" which aired on CBS between 1967 and 1969 before the network fired the brothers and"}
{"id": "1223053461", "date": "2024-01-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Tom Smothers, TV pioneer and satirist", "question_index": 22, "text": "Let's hear it.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I love the whole Beatles Smothers Brothers connection, because in 1964, The Beatles show up on \"Ed Sullivan\" CBS Sunday night. It makes The Beatles, it makes the whole British Invasion. It chang"}
{"id": "1223053461", "date": "2024-01-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Tom Smothers, TV pioneer and satirist", "question_index": 23, "text": "Keep trying to say it. That's what's important. Very interesting. From George Harrison to the Smothers Brothers. It's amazing thinking of having a Beatle in 1968, unbilled and unannounced. Like, people would be promoting that for days, weeks, months...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You get that?"}
{"id": "1223053461", "date": "2024-01-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Tom Smothers, TV pioneer and satirist", "question_index": 24, "text": "...If they knew...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know."}
{"id": "1223053461", "date": "2024-01-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Tom Smothers, TV pioneer and satirist", "question_index": 25, "text": "...He was going to be on.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know."}
{"id": "1223053461", "date": "2024-01-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Tom Smothers, TV pioneer and satirist", "question_index": 26, "text": "Right. Right.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And you know how much I love The Beatles. So I love that clip."}
{"id": "1223053461", "date": "2024-01-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Tom Smothers, TV pioneer and satirist", "question_index": 27, "text": "Did that clip have any repercussions?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1223053461", "date": "2024-01-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Tom Smothers, TV pioneer and satirist", "question_index": 28, "text": "So is there one show you can point to that you think really did in the Smothers Brothers?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No. They were - but it's odd to me, after the show was, you know, after they were fired and the show was pulled off, Bob Einstein, one of the writers, says, how do you cancel a show or fire, you k"}
{"id": "1223053461", "date": "2024-01-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Tom Smothers, TV pioneer and satirist", "question_index": 29, "text": "So you actually brought with you a recording of the sermonette that was never aired.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, certainly. It's the first time that David Steinberg came on as a comic and did a religious sermonette - a comic sermonette. It got more negative mail than anything in the history of broadcasting u"}
{"id": "1223053461", "date": "2024-01-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Tom Smothers, TV pioneer and satirist", "question_index": 30, "text": "OK. So let's hear it. This is David Steinberg.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yeah. These are available now on - you know, Time Life has the last two seasons out of \"The Smothers Brothers,\" the best of them. And one of the outtakes is this because it was never shown, this "}
{"id": "1223053461", "date": "2024-01-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Tom Smothers, TV pioneer and satirist", "question_index": 31, "text": "OK. That's David Steinberg and - recorded in March of 1969, never broadcast on \"The Smothers Brothers\" show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Now, here there are two concepts that we must deal with. There is the New Testament concept and the Old Testament concept. The Old Testament scholars say that Jonah was, in fact, swallowed by a whale."}
{"id": "1223053461", "date": "2024-01-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Tom Smothers, TV pioneer and satirist", "question_index": 32, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. There's a great story about that. When the Smothers Brothers sued CBS and went to trial, David Steinberg was called as one of the witnesses. And the CBS lawyers, you know, made him redo his - th"}
{"id": "1223053461", "date": "2024-01-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Tom Smothers, TV pioneer and satirist", "question_index": 33, "text": "Well, the case was, again, that the network accused them of not delivering programs on time. And clearly what they were really worried about was the kind of content and language that was, you know, getting them into trouble.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Why were you doing that? - because otherwise it wouldn't be funny. And, you know, it's no wonder the Smothers won that case."}
{"id": "1223053461", "date": "2024-01-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Tom Smothers, TV pioneer and satirist", "question_index": 34, "text": "And is that the grounds on which Tom Smothers sued CBS after CBS fired the Smothers Brothers?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. The big difference is that the Smothers Brothers were not canceled. They had already been renewed for a fourth season. They were fired. And so Tom was reacting, saying he was fired unfairly beca"}
{"id": "1223053461", "date": "2024-01-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Tom Smothers, TV pioneer and satirist", "question_index": 35, "text": "Did the Smothers Brothers ask you to write the book? You allude to that in the acknowledgments.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's the one that went all the way through to the end. He wanted to to go on First Amendment rights and really make this a huge case. But he was advised by his ACLU lawyers, who were the only pe"}
{"id": "1223053461", "date": "2024-01-05", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Remembering Tom Smothers, TV pioneer and satirist", "question_index": 36, "text": "Well, David, I want to thank you for talking about your new book, Dangerously Funny, about the Smothers Brothers.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One time after I interviewed Tom, he said, well, are you going to write the book? And I said, what book? And he said, well, the book on us, because I'd written, in a previous book, an entry on \"The Sm"}
{"id": "1225341815", "date": "2024-01-18", "guest": "Tom Shales", "title": "Remembering Tom Shales, a TV critic with a biting wit", "question_index": 0, "text": "Of the people who you write about and legends, who had the greatest effect on you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, it's sort of a Polaroid of me. Not to sound egocentric about it, but it's my reactions, my emotional response more than anything, to the deaths of these people who I held dear, if not near. "}
{"id": "1225341815", "date": "2024-01-18", "guest": "Tom Shales", "title": "Remembering Tom Shales, a TV critic with a biting wit", "question_index": 1, "text": "Do you remember getting your first television?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's hard to say. The first one I ever did - and we made it the first one in the book - was Bing Crosby. And why did Bing Crosby have such an effect? I mean, I don't know. I always admired not only hi"}
{"id": "1225341815", "date": "2024-01-18", "guest": "Tom Shales", "title": "Remembering Tom Shales, a TV critic with a biting wit", "question_index": 2, "text": "Oh, no, no, no.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Television set. I like to have it called a television set. I don't know why because I think of television as the medium. Yeah, I sure do. I sure do. In fact, little Johnny Nights (ph), who lived next "}
{"id": "1225341815", "date": "2024-01-18", "guest": "Tom Shales", "title": "Remembering Tom Shales, a TV critic with a biting wit", "question_index": 3, "text": "So what was your first impressions when you first watched TV in your home?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. Good. Is this pathetic? And I was on my way home from the grocery store with groceries, no doubt. And little Johnny Nights gave away the fact that we had a new RCA mahogany 14-inch console televis"}
{"id": "1225341815", "date": "2024-01-18", "guest": "Tom Shales", "title": "Remembering Tom Shales, a TV critic with a biting wit", "question_index": 4, "text": "Were there any shows that irrationally scared you? You know, they left you terrified, and looking back, you can't imagine why.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That this was a miracle, that this was the second coming and nirvana all rolled into one. It was wonderful. And of course, kids today would think I was just out of my mind talking like this. But you h"}
{"id": "1225341815", "date": "2024-01-18", "guest": "Tom Shales", "title": "Remembering Tom Shales, a TV critic with a biting wit", "question_index": 5, "text": "It did?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no. I can imagine why. \"The Honeymooners\" scared me as a child."}
{"id": "1225341815", "date": "2024-01-18", "guest": "Tom Shales", "title": "Remembering Tom Shales, a TV critic with a biting wit", "question_index": 6, "text": "So what do you have to watch today?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Uh-huh. The idea of a husband and wife fighting with this kind of frenzy - this didn't happen in our house. And it was shocking to me and a little bit scary. It was in later years that I began - I lik"}
{"id": "1225341815", "date": "2024-01-18", "guest": "Tom Shales", "title": "Remembering Tom Shales, a TV critic with a biting wit", "question_index": 7, "text": "Not very", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I've already - I just watched the the two-hour return of \"Beauty And The Beast\" on CBS, which is on December 12. Are you curious about that?"}
{"id": "1225341815", "date": "2024-01-18", "guest": "Tom Shales", "title": "Remembering Tom Shales, a TV critic with a biting wit", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I've already - I just watched the the two-hour return of \"Beauty And The Beast\" on CBS, which is on December 12. Are you curious about that?"}
{"id": "1225341815", "date": "2024-01-18", "guest": "Tom Shales", "title": "Remembering Tom Shales, a TV critic with a biting wit", "question_index": 9, "text": "No. I'm just curious how much you watch each day.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, pardon me for mentioning it, then. What might interest you, pray tell, this week's news? I don't - I haven't seen that yet."}
{"id": "1225341815", "date": "2024-01-18", "guest": "Tom Shales", "title": "Remembering Tom Shales, a TV critic with a biting wit", "question_index": 10, "text": "Oh, Tom Shales, thanks a lot for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, oh, oh. Well, I watch - I try to watch one of the morning shows, like the second hour. And and then I watch an old \"I Love Lucy\" rerun. And then I watch - I see who's on Donahue and who's on Oprah"}
{"id": "1225355395", "date": "2024-01-19", "guest": "Jesse Armstrong", "title": "Talking 'Succession' with Jesse Armstrong, Kieran Culkin and Matthew Macfadyen", "question_index": 0, "text": "\"Succession\" is this very-hard-to-describe - at least, I find it hard to describe - mix of satire and drama and tragedy. And I confess, the first time I watched it, the season premiere, I tuned out in the middle. I thought, these are hateful people. And then I heard other people talking about \"Succession.\" I thought like, gee, it sounds really interesting. So I went back and got immediately hooked. But I had no idea that there were comedic elements. Now, maybe that's on me, but I know other people who felt that way, too. And I'm wondering, did you want to kind of sneakily bring in the comedy slowly and not kind of announce itself, you know, right away?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli. The HBO series \"Succession\" was one of the big winners at Sunday's Emmy ceremony. It came away with six major awards for outstanding drama series, lead actor, l"}
{"id": "1225355395", "date": "2024-01-19", "guest": "Jesse Armstrong", "title": "Talking 'Succession' with Jesse Armstrong, Kieran Culkin and Matthew Macfadyen", "question_index": 1, "text": "Your background was in comedy and satire.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Would I had that much control over my own writing. In a way, the tone of the show is kind of how I write. So I guess one of the things I was curious about was showing the ludicrous, the comic, t"}
{"id": "1225355395", "date": "2024-01-19", "guest": "Jesse Armstrong", "title": "Talking 'Succession' with Jesse Armstrong, Kieran Culkin and Matthew Macfadyen", "question_index": 2, "text": "Some of the funniest parts of \"Succession\" are the insults. I mean, there's webpages with just, like, lists of the best insults from the series. Lots of them have obscenities that we cannot broadcast. But there's one long insult I love that, Jesse, you wrote. It's after Logan dies, when Tom shares his hopes of becoming the CEO with Karl, the chief financial officer of Waystar Royco, and Karl explains why that's never going to happen. So I want to play that clip. It starts with Tom.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. I'm a comedy writer. I'd still, I guess, maybe really call myself a comedy writer. I'd written, you know, with my long-term writing partner, Sam Bain, nine series of \"Peep Show,\" which is a "}
{"id": "1225355395", "date": "2024-01-19", "guest": "Jesse Armstrong", "title": "Talking 'Succession' with Jesse Armstrong, Kieran Culkin and Matthew Macfadyen", "question_index": 3, "text": "That's Matthew Macfadyen as Tom. And that was David Rasche as Karl. I just want to say it's so clever. The whole series is based on which of the siblings is going to succeed their father. And in the last episode, it's, like, none of them. So, Jesse, why couldn't any of the siblings take over?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Tom Wambsgans) Jesus, Karl."}
{"id": "1225355395", "date": "2024-01-19", "guest": "Jesse Armstrong", "title": "Talking 'Succession' with Jesse Armstrong, Kieran Culkin and Matthew Macfadyen", "question_index": 4, "text": "Let's talk about the finale. So after arguing who should succeed their father as CEO and who should they offer the board as you know the king, 'cause Kendall says, there can only be, like, one king here, and it should be me. And he finally convinces his siblings it should be him. So the board is voting, and Shiv holds out. She's, like, the decisive vote she's holding out. The three siblings go into another room, a glass office. Shiv explains why she can't vote for Kendall, and this refers to something that happens in the season finale of the first season, when Kendall, after a party, is driving one of the caterers to score some drugs 'cause the caterer knows - has connections. Kendall's at the wheel. He's not used to a stick shift. He's not used to driving because he has a chauffeur. And he drives off the road into the river, gets himself out of the car, but the caterer drowns, and his father covers it up so no one ever knows. So here's Shiv explaining why she can't vote for Kendall to be CEO.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a good question. I guess they could do, you know, if you were thinking about this as a business situation rather than a piece of drama. They might have slipped through, one of them, for a little "}
{"id": "1225355395", "date": "2024-01-19", "guest": "Jesse Armstrong", "title": "Talking 'Succession' with Jesse Armstrong, Kieran Culkin and Matthew Macfadyen", "question_index": 5, "text": "All right. That was Jeremy Strong as Kendall, Kieran Culkin as Roman and Sarah Snook as Shiv. You have, like, unique writing styles for each of the siblings and for Logan Roy. Can you talk a little bit about coming up with each of their voices?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Shiv Roy) I love you. I really - I love you, but I cannot [expletive] stomach you."}
{"id": "1225355395", "date": "2024-01-19", "guest": "Jesse Armstrong", "title": "Talking 'Succession' with Jesse Armstrong, Kieran Culkin and Matthew Macfadyen", "question_index": 6, "text": "And Greg has this, like, cluelessness and formality. When he's on the witness stand during the hearings about the Waystar Cruises - cruise lines sexual harassment scandal, he's questioned by a senator, and he says - Greg's answer is, if it is, so be said, so be it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess a couple of overall things are that it struck me that powerful people often don't say so much. And Logan is - says probably many fewer words than his less powerful colleagues and people who su"}
{"id": "1225355395", "date": "2024-01-19", "guest": "Jesse Armstrong", "title": "Talking 'Succession' with Jesse Armstrong, Kieran Culkin and Matthew Macfadyen", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yeah. If it is to be said, so be it. And the senator said what is that? You can speak normal. And Greg says I shall. So you created this kind of, like, really strange formality for him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If it is to be said, so it is, I think, or something, yeah?"}
{"id": "1225355395", "date": "2024-01-19", "guest": "Jesse Armstrong", "title": "Talking 'Succession' with Jesse Armstrong, Kieran Culkin and Matthew Macfadyen", "question_index": 8, "text": "Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think there's a little bit of the kind of 18th century in there, that sort of courtier vibe in the, yeah, hyperverbosity..."}
{"id": "1225355395", "date": "2024-01-19", "guest": "Jesse Armstrong", "title": "Talking 'Succession' with Jesse Armstrong, Kieran Culkin and Matthew Macfadyen", "question_index": 9, "text": "Logan basically has a catchphrase which is F off.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...But - well, I think there's also a class thing there, which is, you know, the phrase hypercorrection where people who are outside their normal class or social arena sometimes end up being idiotic '"}
{"id": "1225355395", "date": "2024-01-19", "guest": "Jesse Armstrong", "title": "Talking 'Succession' with Jesse Armstrong, Kieran Culkin and Matthew Macfadyen", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That's succinct. Power is succinct."}
{"id": "1225355395", "date": "2024-01-19", "guest": "Jesse Armstrong", "title": "Talking 'Succession' with Jesse Armstrong, Kieran Culkin and Matthew Macfadyen", "question_index": 11, "text": "Jesse, when we first see Logan on the first episode of the series, it's his 80th birthday, and he's very weak. The first time we see him, he gets out of bed in the morning. He's breathing heavily. He's walking with difficulty. He goes to the bathroom to pee, and because he's so disoriented, he pees on the bathroom rug. And not long after this, he has, like, a bleed in the brain, a stroke, an embolism, I'm a little unclear exactly what it is, but, you know, he becomes exceptionally weakened. It's - it seems unlikely he'll even pull through but he does. Why did you want to introduce this very powerful, domineering, manipulative man in such a vulnerable state the first time we see him?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's conversation from last year with Jesse Armstrong, the creator of HBO's \"Succession.\" The drama series, which ended last year after four seasons, won six ma"}
{"id": "1225355395", "date": "2024-01-19", "guest": "Jesse Armstrong", "title": "Talking 'Succession' with Jesse Armstrong, Kieran Culkin and Matthew Macfadyen", "question_index": 12, "text": "The series begins and ends for Logan Roy in the bathroom. You know, he goes to the bathroom the first time we see him and pees on the rug. He misses the toilet. And then he dies on his jet in the bathroom. So that seems to be a motif - Logan in the bathroom. Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I guess that's - well, I think the show, hopefully, is about a bunch of different things, but it's definitely very concerned with mortality. And people will know that Rupert Murdoch and Sumner R"}
{"id": "1225355395", "date": "2024-01-19", "guest": "Jesse Armstrong", "title": "Talking 'Succession' with Jesse Armstrong, Kieran Culkin and Matthew Macfadyen", "question_index": 13, "text": "So let's listen to the goodbye scene when Logan Roy is on his jet, and he's either dying or dead. People on the jet are trying to revive him, but it doesn't seem to be working. The kids are on a cruise ship, celebrating Connor's wedding. And so they get this call like, your father's dying. Tom's on the phone telling them, and they don't know what's going on. So Tom gives the phone - puts the phone to Logan's ear so that they could say their goodbyes. And they don't know if he's dead or if he's alive. They don't know if he can hear them. So I want to play the goodbyes. And the order we'll hear is first Kieran Culkin as Roman and Jeremy Strong as Kendall and Sarah Snook as Shiv. So let's start with Roman.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, and I know - I now remember that in the end of the first season, he gets the news - he gets a bear hug letter from his son also in a bathroom, and he throws it into the toilet bowl. So, yeah, I "}
{"id": "1225355395", "date": "2024-01-19", "guest": "Jesse Armstrong", "title": "Talking 'Succession' with Jesse Armstrong, Kieran Culkin and Matthew Macfadyen", "question_index": 14, "text": "So that was Kieran Culkin as Roman and Jeremy Strong as Kendall. And here's Sarah Snook saying her goodbye as Shiv.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Kendall Roy) It'll be OK. I know. We love you, Dad. OK? We love you. I love you, Dad. I do. I love you. OK? I can't forgive you. But, yeah, but I - it's OK. And I love you."}
{"id": "1225355395", "date": "2024-01-19", "guest": "Jesse Armstrong", "title": "Talking 'Succession' with Jesse Armstrong, Kieran Culkin and Matthew Macfadyen", "question_index": 15, "text": "Those are really amazing performances and incredible writing, too. And, I think, Jesse, you wrote that scene - you really captured the not knowing what to say aspect in a situation like that, you know, not knowing how to say goodbye but especially in a conflicted relationship like the siblings had with their father, where they loved him and they hated him. And sometimes the hate would really overpower the love. And Kendall even says, I can't forgive you - I love you. So can you talk a little bit about writing those goodbyes, like, what you wanted to capture and the language and the stammering that you created?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Siobhan Roy, crying) Dad? Hey, Dad. Daddy, I love you. Don't go, please, not now. No. I love you, you f***. God, I don't - there's no excuses for being - but I - and it's OK. It's OK, Daddy. It's "}
{"id": "1225355395", "date": "2024-01-19", "guest": "Jesse Armstrong", "title": "Talking 'Succession' with Jesse Armstrong, Kieran Culkin and Matthew Macfadyen", "question_index": 16, "text": "He didn't know he was going to die.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And obviously, the whole show is such - multiple collaborations. But I feel especially in those moments, they could be - they could lie on the page inert if it wasn't with those brilliant actors"}
{"id": "1225355395", "date": "2024-01-19", "guest": "Jesse Armstrong", "title": "Talking 'Succession' with Jesse Armstrong, Kieran Culkin and Matthew Macfadyen", "question_index": 17, "text": "Kieran Culkin, welcome to FRESH AIR. It is such a pleasure to have you. I love the show. I love your performance in it. I love the writing. I love all the actors. Anyways, thank you for being on our show.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Here's an excerpt of Terry's interview with Kieran Culkin."}
{"id": "1225355395", "date": "2024-01-19", "guest": "Jesse Armstrong", "title": "Talking 'Succession' with Jesse Armstrong, Kieran Culkin and Matthew Macfadyen", "question_index": 18, "text": "So that said, after all the praise, when the first episode was on, I didn't make it through the episode. I didn't like it. I thought, these characters are monsters. They were, like, the most privileged people in the world. They're monsters. Why would I spend my time watching this story about them? And then I finally figured out, through hearing other people talk about it, that it sounded great, and I should give it another shot. And that's when I realized the show is really funny. I mean, you wouldn't know it just looking at the surface 'cause everybody is so in character and is so serious in the way they play their role, but the writing is just hilarious. Were you all worried about that, that there'd be a lot of people like me who wouldn't realize at first that it was really funny and would just kind of not care about these monsters?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. That's really nice."}
{"id": "1225355395", "date": "2024-01-19", "guest": "Jesse Armstrong", "title": "Talking 'Succession' with Jesse Armstrong, Kieran Culkin and Matthew Macfadyen", "question_index": 19, "text": "Right, right. Your character has done some very horrible things during the course of the series. What do you think is one of the most horrible?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had the same feeling, even while we were shooting it. I looked at the pilot script, and I said, I know this is quality. As we were shooting it, I felt great about what we were doing. But I felt, who"}
{"id": "1225355395", "date": "2024-01-19", "guest": "Jesse Armstrong", "title": "Talking 'Succession' with Jesse Armstrong, Kieran Culkin and Matthew Macfadyen", "question_index": 20, "text": "Oh. Oh, that's so horrible. Why don't you explain what he does?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The one and only choice I made for the character was this guy grew up never having to suffer consequences, and so he doesn't really know what that means to suffer consequences. So I think - and I've s"}
{"id": "1225355395", "date": "2024-01-19", "guest": "Jesse Armstrong", "title": "Talking 'Succession' with Jesse Armstrong, Kieran Culkin and Matthew Macfadyen", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is - let me just set this up. This is a family baseball game. And there's, like, a young kid who's maybe 10 or something standing by with his parents. And you invite him to go up to bat, and you tell him, if you get a home run, I'm going to give you $1 million. You write out the check. And so, like, the kid is, like, so nervous, and his parents are just kind of biting their lips, and you're just, like, toying with him. And, of course, he doesn't make the home run, and you tear up the check. And it's just a horrible thing to do to a kid.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He goes up to that kid and tells him if he hits a home run, he will sign a check for a million dollars."}
{"id": "1225355395", "date": "2024-01-19", "guest": "Jesse Armstrong", "title": "Talking 'Succession' with Jesse Armstrong, Kieran Culkin and Matthew Macfadyen", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The kid comes close, too. But I think in - to look at it from Roman's perspective, like, that's why - a lot of people have told me that it was horrible. I read it on page and thought it was horrible. "}
{"id": "1225355395", "date": "2024-01-19", "guest": "Jesse Armstrong", "title": "Talking 'Succession' with Jesse Armstrong, Kieran Culkin and Matthew Macfadyen", "question_index": 23, "text": "Right, right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So he tore up the check in front of him."}
{"id": "1225355395", "date": "2024-01-19", "guest": "Jesse Armstrong", "title": "Talking 'Succession' with Jesse Armstrong, Kieran Culkin and Matthew Macfadyen", "question_index": 24, "text": "You seem to have had this, like, approach-avoidance attitude toward acting. There's been periods where you've acted and periods where you've decided to drop out. Has the show and its success and your fabulous performance and role in it made you feel any differently about acting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He doesn't get the million dollars. So is it that horrible? He actually provided this kid with a tremendous opportunity and gave the family memories. I'm not saying this is my - Kieran's perspective, "}
{"id": "1225355395", "date": "2024-01-19", "guest": "Jesse Armstrong", "title": "Talking 'Succession' with Jesse Armstrong, Kieran Culkin and Matthew Macfadyen", "question_index": 25, "text": "Yeah. Yeah. That's - yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It was a - you know - 'cause I've been doing it since I was a kid. And I don't think, you know, when you're 6, 7 years old, you say, hey, Mom, Dad, I want to be an actor, that you're actually re"}
{"id": "1225355395", "date": "2024-01-19", "guest": "Jesse Armstrong", "title": "Talking 'Succession' with Jesse Armstrong, Kieran Culkin and Matthew Macfadyen", "question_index": 26, "text": "What did you hate about the idea of your face being on a poster?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It just took that long. And now I feel comfortable with it. Now it's like - before I think I've always had this sort of - I had a relationship with it. It was it was a love-hate. I love doing th"}
{"id": "1225355395", "date": "2024-01-19", "guest": "Jesse Armstrong", "title": "Talking 'Succession' with Jesse Armstrong, Kieran Culkin and Matthew Macfadyen", "question_index": 27, "text": "Some people just dream about that happening. That's their ambition.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Are you kidding'? Oh, there's my head on the bus going by, you know? I don't know. There's just something about that that's just really embarrassing."}
{"id": "1225355395", "date": "2024-01-19", "guest": "Jesse Armstrong", "title": "Talking 'Succession' with Jesse Armstrong, Kieran Culkin and Matthew Macfadyen", "question_index": 28, "text": "How's your memory in terms of memorizing lines?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Those people are nuts, I think."}
{"id": "1225355395", "date": "2024-01-19", "guest": "Jesse Armstrong", "title": "Talking 'Succession' with Jesse Armstrong, Kieran Culkin and Matthew Macfadyen", "question_index": 29, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That is something that I can credit towards my childhood acting 'cause I memorize lines extremely fast. It's almost like a parlor trick. And that has nothing to do with like, you know, talent or anyth"}
{"id": "1225355395", "date": "2024-01-19", "guest": "Jesse Armstrong", "title": "Talking 'Succession' with Jesse Armstrong, Kieran Culkin and Matthew Macfadyen", "question_index": 30, "text": "Oh, that's hilarious.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1226856416", "date": "2024-01-25", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "How the war between Israel and Hamas widened into a regional conflict", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The regional war in the Middle East, the war that no one wanted, is already here. And it may be difficult to contain, warns my guest, David Sanger. He's a White House and national security correspondent for The New York Times. He writes that Iran and its proxies are posing a new challenge to the West. Now Russia and China are on Iran's side. This week the U.N. secretary-general warned that all the countries and militias involved in escalating tension in the Middle East should step back from the brink and consider the horrendous human cost of a regional conflict. David Sanger has been reporting on how and why the war has been widening. He's the author of the forthcoming book, \"New Cold Wars: China's Rise, Russia's Invasion, And The Struggle To Defend The West.\" We recorded our interview yesterday. David Sanger, welcome back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1226856416", "date": "2024-01-25", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "How the war between Israel and Hamas widened into a regional conflict", "question_index": 1, "text": "The war between Israel and Hamas has already widened into a regional war. Can you just connect the dots and run through who's attacking who?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Great to be with you, Terry."}
{"id": "1226856416", "date": "2024-01-25", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "How the war between Israel and Hamas widened into a regional conflict", "question_index": 2, "text": "And the U.S. has become directly involved. What has the U.S. been doing, and what has been done to the U.S.?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Well, this started, of course, with the attack by Hamas on Israel that cost 1,200 lives and was, I think, clearly one of the most horrific attacks on Israel and on Jews in decades. Then, of cour"}
{"id": "1226856416", "date": "2024-01-25", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "How the war between Israel and Hamas widened into a regional conflict", "question_index": 3, "text": "The U.S. has also attacked extremist militias in Iraq in retaliation for attacks on the U.S. military.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, certainly, the U.S. has been helping Israel with arms and intelligence but has been engaged in - the Biden administration has been engaged in very tense conversations with Prime Minister Netanya"}
{"id": "1226856416", "date": "2024-01-25", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "How the war between Israel and Hamas widened into a regional conflict", "question_index": 4, "text": "So Iran - we know Iran backs Hezbollah in Lebanon and Hamas in Gaza and the Houthis in Yemen. What about the attacks in Baghdad? Are they connected to Iran? Is Iran, like, connecting all these attacks?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We have seen this happen repeatedly. So there have been attacks on the U.S. military that so far, thankfully, have not taken lives but have caused some significant injuries, including traumatic brain "}
{"id": "1226856416", "date": "2024-01-25", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "How the war between Israel and Hamas widened into a regional conflict", "question_index": 5, "text": "In keeping with what you're saying, I think these militia groups, these extremist groups that Iran backs, are really feeling their power. Look at the Houthis in Yemen, for instance. They've, like, shut down shipping in the Red Sea. And, sure, they're being attacked for it, but they're taking it. It's not stopping them. So they're feeling their power and they might want to keep exerting it no matter what Iran says. Is that what you're suggesting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Iran is the connective tissue, Terry, for all of these attacks. These are all Iranian proxies, which is to say that they get their arms from Iran. Some of them get intelligence and targeting informati"}
{"id": "1226856416", "date": "2024-01-25", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "How the war between Israel and Hamas widened into a regional conflict", "question_index": 6, "text": "So you've said that Iran doesn't want this war to widen. They don't want to become directly involved in a war with the U.S., but they can't necessarily control the militias that they back, and those militias can lead us into a wider war. Why doesn't Iran want to get involved in a larger war?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is, Terry. And the Houthis are a really fascinating example. I mean, here is a movement that started as sort of a tribal group, moved on. The Houthis now control much of Yemen. The United States ha"}
{"id": "1226856416", "date": "2024-01-25", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "How the war between Israel and Hamas widened into a regional conflict", "question_index": 7, "text": "Well, let's take a break here and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is David Sanger, a White House and national security correspondent for The New York Times. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a really interesting question. So the first is, they don't have the military force to take us on. They've got effective missiles and drones. We've seen that as they have provided the drones to th"}
{"id": "1226856416", "date": "2024-01-25", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "How the war between Israel and Hamas widened into a regional conflict", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with David Sanger about how and why the war between Israel and Hamas has widened into a regional conflict that threatens to become even more of a threat to Israel, the U.S., and its Western allies. You wrote that Iran has built Hezbollah, the militia based in Lebanon that has been attacking Israel - that Iran built Hezbollah as protection for itself, not for the Palestinians. How does Hezbollah protect Iran?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a really interesting question. So the first is, they don't have the military force to take us on. They've got effective missiles and drones. We've seen that as they have provided the drones to th"}
{"id": "1226856416", "date": "2024-01-25", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "How the war between Israel and Hamas widened into a regional conflict", "question_index": 9, "text": "And meanwhile, there really is a little war on the border between Israel and Hezbollah that - they have been attacking each other.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "By keeping the Israelis worried about ways that their own country could get attacked if there was a direct war with Iran. In other words, Hezbollah has missile emplacements, artillery so close to the "}
{"id": "1226856416", "date": "2024-01-25", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "How the war between Israel and Hamas widened into a regional conflict", "question_index": 10, "text": "You quoted somebody in one of your articles as saying that Iran wants to keep Hezbollah out of the war in Gaza, and it doesn't want Israel to go after Hezbollah directly. Why does Iran want to keep Hezbollah out of the war?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They have but at a very low level, right? Pretty contained. And the U.S. effort is to keep it that way. You know, when you talk to people in the Biden administration about this, they kind of feel like"}
{"id": "1226856416", "date": "2024-01-25", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "How the war between Israel and Hamas widened into a regional conflict", "question_index": 11, "text": "Do you have any insights about whether there are red lines that could be crossed, that would lead to the U.S. striking directly at Iran?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hezbollah is an important asset for Iran. They are an important insurance policy for Iran. Keeping a proxy force within easy shooting distance of Israel is enormously valuable to them. And if the Isra"}
{"id": "1226856416", "date": "2024-01-25", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "How the war between Israel and Hamas widened into a regional conflict", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is David Sanger, a White House and national security correspondent for The New York Times. We'll talk more about the widening war in the Middle East after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So - great question, and it's one that's debated constantly in the Pentagon at Central Command, which is based in Florida but responsible for the whole Mideast region. And I could think of a couple of"}
{"id": "1226856416", "date": "2024-01-25", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "How the war between Israel and Hamas widened into a regional conflict", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with David Sanger, who's been reporting on how the war between Israel and Hamas has widened into a regional conflict, and why it may escalate even more. Iran has become a growing threat. Its proxy groups include the extremist militias Hamas in Gaza, Hezbollah in Lebanon and the Houthis in Yemen. And now Iran is aligned with two superpowers, Russia and China. Sanger is a White House and national security correspondent for The New York Times and author of the forthcoming book \"New Cold Wars: China's Rise, Russia's Invasion, And The Struggle To Defend The West.\" We recorded our interview yesterday. What's the worst-case scenario you see coming out of what is now a regional conflict involving the U.S.? What's the worst-case scenario that you see coming out of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So - great question, and it's one that's debated constantly in the Pentagon at Central Command, which is based in Florida but responsible for the whole Mideast region. And I could think of a couple of"}
{"id": "1226856416", "date": "2024-01-25", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "How the war between Israel and Hamas widened into a regional conflict", "question_index": 14, "text": "And then what?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The worst-case scenario, Terry, I think, is that these all come together, these disparate groups that are conducting their attacks, not in coordination with each other, but certainly in common cause w"}
{"id": "1226856416", "date": "2024-01-25", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "How the war between Israel and Hamas widened into a regional conflict", "question_index": 15, "text": "Iran is now aligned with Russia and China, two superpowers. What are the implications of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, then the United States could be drawn into a much larger conflict. And I can give you two or three examples of how that could happen. First of all, a broad attack on Israel. Obviously, the Unite"}
{"id": "1226856416", "date": "2024-01-25", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "How the war between Israel and Hamas widened into a regional conflict", "question_index": 16, "text": "And China and Russia have nuclear weapons. North Korea, I think, is not far from having one. Am I right in that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Huge. And I think in some ways, this is probably the most important development for the United States to come out of this whole disparate series of events. So, again, to take you back to 2015, when th"}
{"id": "1226856416", "date": "2024-01-25", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "How the war between Israel and Hamas widened into a regional conflict", "question_index": 17, "text": "Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "North Korea has nuclear weapons. They've tested them six times."}
{"id": "1226856416", "date": "2024-01-25", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "How the war between Israel and Hamas widened into a regional conflict", "question_index": 18, "text": "And they're also on the verge of actually successfully launching an intercontinental ballistic missile.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1226856416", "date": "2024-01-25", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "How the war between Israel and Hamas widened into a regional conflict", "question_index": 19, "text": "Right. So this is actually a really, like, game-changing scenario to have these powers aligned with each other. And they're all so unpredictable. And they're all so authoritarian. They're all about power. The leader of North Korea, we don't know what his mental health is. Putin's mental health has been questioned. So there are so many wild cards here.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They have tested ICBMs many times. They've been doing these high-arc tests where it goes way up into the - beyond the atmosphere, into space and come down. If they ever flatten that out, it's pretty c"}
{"id": "1226856416", "date": "2024-01-25", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "How the war between Israel and Hamas widened into a regional conflict", "question_index": 20, "text": "Meanwhile, Iran has become an important arms supplier, and that's one of the sources of its income and power now. So how sophisticated are the weapons that it's been selling to Russia and also providing the militia groups that Iran backs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There are a lot of wild cards. But you have to remember that there are also some reasons for restraint on the part of those powers as well. China is deeply dependent on Mideast oil, so they can't be h"}
{"id": "1226856416", "date": "2024-01-25", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "How the war between Israel and Hamas widened into a regional conflict", "question_index": 21, "text": "One of Iran's missiles is a new - I don't understand exactly what this is, but it's a solid-propellant, precision-guided missile. But the important thing here is it has a range of 900 miles, so it can hit Israel. And it used this missile once. And you describe that as having been part-deterrent and part-sales pitch. Explain what you mean.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They have been strikingly sophisticated. I don't think, before the Ukraine war, we thought the Iranians were capable of mass-producing drones with the kind of accuracy and sophistication that we have "}
{"id": "1226856416", "date": "2024-01-25", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "How the war between Israel and Hamas widened into a regional conflict", "question_index": 22, "text": "So this means, like, more and more countries are going to have real, like, sophisticated weaponry.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, solid fuel is important because if you have a liquid fuel, you have to bring the missile out and fuel it out in the open, which can take an hour or two, and then launch it. And in that time peri"}
{"id": "1226856416", "date": "2024-01-25", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "How the war between Israel and Hamas widened into a regional conflict", "question_index": 23, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk to more. If you're just joining us, my guest is David Sanger, a White House and national security correspondent for The New York Times. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, one of the big changes of the technological revolution that we have been through in arms in the past 20 years is that they are no longer in the realm of just the superpowers because they are"}
{"id": "1226856416", "date": "2024-01-25", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "How the war between Israel and Hamas widened into a regional conflict", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with David Sanger about how and why the war between Israel and Hamas has widened into a regional conflict that threatens to become even more of a threat to Israel, the U.S. and its Western allies. I don't know how much you know about what's happening behind the scenes in the Biden administration. The Biden administration has a lot of really difficult choices to make. It's already made some of those choices, and there's many more on the horizon. Obviously, the Biden administration doesn't want to get involved too deeply into this war. It doesn't want the war to widen, but a lot of it is out of its control. What do you know about what kind of debates have been going on behind the scenes in the administration about how to move forward?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, one of the big changes of the technological revolution that we have been through in arms in the past 20 years is that they are no longer in the realm of just the superpowers because they are"}
{"id": "1226856416", "date": "2024-01-25", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "How the war between Israel and Hamas widened into a regional conflict", "question_index": 25, "text": "Now, we had talked a little bit about how the U.S. wants to restrain Israel, like, support it but restrain it at the same time. So this week it was reported that Israel has been trying to demolish part of a Palestinian neighborhood to create a buffer zone between Gaza and Israel for Israel's protection. What do you know about the Biden administration reaction to Israel's actions with that buffer zone?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so far, Terry, there have been two big debates going on inside the White House that have spilled out into our reporting. The first is how to go deal with Prime Minister Netanyahu. There's no lov"}
{"id": "1226856416", "date": "2024-01-25", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "How the war between Israel and Hamas widened into a regional conflict", "question_index": 26, "text": "David Sanger, thank you so much for sharing your knowledge with us. I really appreciate you coming back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you may remember that when Secretary of State Blinken arrived in Israel a number of weeks ago, one of his many trips there, he laid out a series of standards, of sort of red lines of what the Is"}
{"id": "1226856416", "date": "2024-01-25", "guest": "David Sanger", "title": "How the war between Israel and Hamas widened into a regional conflict", "question_index": 27, "text": "David Sanger is a White House and national security correspondent for The New York Times and author of the forthcoming book \"New Cold Wars: China's Rise, Russia's Invasion, And The Struggle To Defend The West.\" After we take a short break, John Powers will review a new film he says is about the tango between life and death. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, it's always a pleasure to be on with you."}
{"id": "1226874428", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "Peter Schickele", "title": "Remembering Peter Schickele, the satirical composer behind P.D.Q. Bach", "question_index": 0, "text": "You grew up in Ames, Iowa, and in Fargo, N.D. Was there much of a classical music scene in either of those two places?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Basically, what I am is a composer. And I think that P.D.Q. Bach grew very gradually. It did not start with a career in mind at all. It was something that started with friends in a living room in Farg"}
{"id": "1226874428", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "Peter Schickele", "title": "Remembering Peter Schickele, the satirical composer behind P.D.Q. Bach", "question_index": 1, "text": "What kind of music do you think you were going to compose when you first went to Juilliard?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we moved from Ames when I was 8 years old. I don't have any particular memory of that. I wasn't particularly interested in music as a kid. I was not a prodigy at all. I didn't get interested in "}
{"id": "1226874428", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "Peter Schickele", "title": "Remembering Peter Schickele, the satirical composer behind P.D.Q. Bach", "question_index": 2, "text": "Do you think that there's any classical composers that we treat a little too sanctimoniously?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I assumed that I would end up being a college teacher or something and writing. I mean, I knew what I wanted to do was write, and that's sort of the way you made your living in those days if you"}
{"id": "1226874428", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "Peter Schickele", "title": "Remembering Peter Schickele, the satirical composer behind P.D.Q. Bach", "question_index": 3, "text": "Well, speaking of serious approaches, when you make your entrance in your concerts, you've entered in some most unusual ways. Do you want to describe some of the entrances you've made?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I think - my feeling about that is that a lot of people don't realize that the people who wrote that music weren't as stuffy as the atmosphere of concert halls suggests that they were. But I do f"}
{"id": "1226874428", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "Peter Schickele", "title": "Remembering Peter Schickele, the satirical composer behind P.D.Q. Bach", "question_index": 4, "text": "I don't know if this has ever happened, but have you ever been at a concert where the musicians were laughing in the middle of it and, you know, just ruining the concert by laughing along with the joke instead of being straight-faced?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1985 interview with Peter Schickele, a serious composer with a less-serious side, which he let loose in the guise of his musical alter ego, P.D.Q. Bach. Sc"}
{"id": "1226874428", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "Peter Schickele", "title": "Remembering Peter Schickele, the satirical composer behind P.D.Q. Bach", "question_index": 5, "text": "When you first started performing before you were famous, did musicians think twice about playing with you because they thought that they'd be taken as comedians instead of serious musicians and it might have a negative impact on their careers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, actually, I don't ask them to be straight-faced anymore. When I first started appearing with symphony orchestras, I did, and I found that it sort of puts a wet blanket on it. When I'm appearing "}
{"id": "1226874428", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "Peter Schickele", "title": "Remembering Peter Schickele, the satirical composer behind P.D.Q. Bach", "question_index": 6, "text": "Did anyone ever say to you that you were ruining your own career and your own chances as a serious musician by focusing so much on the musical satire that you do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there was a certain amount of that. I think the very first humorous concert wasn't even called P.D.Q. Bach at Juilliard when I was a student there in 1959. And Jorge Mester and I and some other "}
{"id": "1226887642", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "The Shangri-Las", "title": "Remembering Mary Weiss, lead singer of The Shangri-Las", "question_index": 0, "text": "That's Mary Weiss from her new CD, \"Dangerous Game.\" Mary Weiss, welcome to FRESH AIR. It's so great to have you recording again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) When you held me close, that's when I knew. Shield me through and through. I couldn't let you go. I couldn't let it show. And this whole word's unfair. I know it's true. What can I do? One d"}
{"id": "1226887642", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "The Shangri-Las", "title": "Remembering Mary Weiss, lead singer of The Shangri-Las", "question_index": 1, "text": "Yeah. You really sound great on the new record, but you haven't recorded and you haven't even performed much since The Shangri-Las broke up in the late '60s. Why have you stayed away from music for so many years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1226887642", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "The Shangri-Las", "title": "Remembering Mary Weiss, lead singer of The Shangri-Las", "question_index": 2, "text": "So what changed? And did somebody convince you to come back now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Basically, when we first started, it was all about music. And by the time we finished, it was all about litigation, and it just became thicker than the music."}
{"id": "1226887642", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "The Shangri-Las", "title": "Remembering Mary Weiss, lead singer of The Shangri-Las", "question_index": 3, "text": "And why did you think you wanted to go back to music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Interestingly enough, I was listening to an interview you did with Iggy Pop. And he mentioned life being in seven-year cycles, and I was just floored because I've always viewed life that way. And I've"}
{"id": "1226887642", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "The Shangri-Las", "title": "Remembering Mary Weiss, lead singer of The Shangri-Las", "question_index": 4, "text": "So it must have been horrible to not be able to perform for all those years.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because music is home to me. It always was. Music was my life as a child growing up, and it got me through most of the things in my life. And it feels like where I belong. So..."}
{"id": "1226887642", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "The Shangri-Las", "title": "Remembering Mary Weiss, lead singer of The Shangri-Las", "question_index": 5, "text": "So that must have been frustrating, not being able to record.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Never been real fond of performing live. I'm a very private person, but I love the studio. That's my home."}
{"id": "1226887642", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "The Shangri-Las", "title": "Remembering Mary Weiss, lead singer of The Shangri-Las", "question_index": 6, "text": "Did they know who you were?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes and no. When I put something down, I really put it down. And I packed my bags, and I went on my way. I developed a new career. I was working for an architectural firm, and I had started in their a"}
{"id": "1226887642", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "The Shangri-Las", "title": "Remembering Mary Weiss, lead singer of The Shangri-Las", "question_index": 7, "text": "Let's talk a little bit about The Shangri-Las. Now, you started out in high school performing at local bars with The Shangri-Las before you started recording. And the band was initially made up of you, your sister Betty and two twins who were your friends.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And sometimes people would show up at my place of employment with an album in hand."}
{"id": "1226887642", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "The Shangri-Las", "title": "Remembering Mary Weiss, lead singer of The Shangri-Las", "question_index": 8, "text": "What was the band like before you started recording?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1226887642", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "The Shangri-Las", "title": "Remembering Mary Weiss, lead singer of The Shangri-Las", "question_index": 9, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, actually, we met in grammar school, and we used to sing on the street corner, all of us. So that's how we really started - in not bars. I was too young to be in a bar, actually."}
{"id": "1226887642", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "The Shangri-Las", "title": "Remembering Mary Weiss, lead singer of The Shangri-Las", "question_index": 10, "text": "And the story of how you met George \"Shadow\" Morton, who became one of your producers and one of your chief songwriters is a story that's kind of entered rock 'n' roll lore, but I want you to tell it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Little hops and dances and things like that we did initially until we went up to Bob Lewis' apartment and met Shadow Morton."}
{"id": "1226887642", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "The Shangri-Las", "title": "Remembering Mary Weiss, lead singer of The Shangri-Las", "question_index": 11, "text": "And he, I think, wrote this on a dare. He was trying to convince the songwriter Jeff Barry that he was really a songwriter and he could write, you know, a ballad or a - or, you know, an up-tempo tune. And, and the song was \"Remember (Walkin' In The Sand),\" which is one of those, like, great, like, drama songs that you recorded.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We had an original manager. I believe his name was Tony Michaels. And he wanted Bob Lewis to hear us singing. So he had made an appointment with him, and we went up to his apartment just to hear us, a"}
{"id": "1226887642", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "The Shangri-Las", "title": "Remembering Mary Weiss, lead singer of The Shangri-Las", "question_index": 12, "text": "Oh, I love the record. I mean, who doesn't", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I really like that record."}
{"id": "1226887642", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "The Shangri-Las", "title": "Remembering Mary Weiss, lead singer of The Shangri-Las", "question_index": 13, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I really like that record."}
{"id": "1226887642", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "The Shangri-Las", "title": "Remembering Mary Weiss, lead singer of The Shangri-Las", "question_index": 14, "text": "Let's hear \"Remember,\" which was The Shangri-Las' first hit. And you were - what? - 15 when this was recorded?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm doing that on stage. Are you? Yes, I am."}
{"id": "1226887642", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "The Shangri-Las", "title": "Remembering Mary Weiss, lead singer of The Shangri-Las", "question_index": 15, "text": "OK. Here we go.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I believe so."}
{"id": "1226887642", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "The Shangri-Las", "title": "Remembering Mary Weiss, lead singer of The Shangri-Las", "question_index": 16, "text": "That's The Shangri-Las, their first hit. My guest, Mary Weiss, was the lead singer of The Shangri-Las. And now she has a new solo CD, which is called \"Dangerous Game.\" Now, this song has such drama to it. You know, like when you're saying, like, let me think. Let me think. What can I do? Were you used to that kind of drama in your performances?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Seemed like the other day my baby went away. He went away 'cross the sea. It's been two years or so since I saw my baby go, and then this letter came for me. He said that we were through. He"}
{"id": "1226887642", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "The Shangri-Las", "title": "Remembering Mary Weiss, lead singer of The Shangri-Las", "question_index": 17, "text": "What kind of drama in your life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was used to that kind of drama in my life, so I think it would come out in my performances."}
{"id": "1226887642", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "The Shangri-Las", "title": "Remembering Mary Weiss, lead singer of The Shangri-Las", "question_index": 18, "text": "Can you give us, like, an example of a dramatic incident that had already happened to you when you were 15 and recorded this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think teenagers, for the most part - I can only speak for myself. But teenagers have an intensity that we seem to - I don't think we grow out of. But there's variable shades of gray added wher"}
{"id": "1226887642", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "The Shangri-Las", "title": "Remembering Mary Weiss, lead singer of The Shangri-Las", "question_index": 19, "text": "Some people lose their bearings when they have that kind of sudden success at a young age. Did you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not specifically. It's just the way - I grew up with a difficult childhood. We grew up pretty poor. And, I mean, I've been supporting myself since I'm 14. So I don't know. There was a lot of pain in m"}
{"id": "1226887642", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "The Shangri-Las", "title": "Remembering Mary Weiss, lead singer of The Shangri-Las", "question_index": 20, "text": "If you don't mind my asking, did guys in bands try to hit on you on the road when you were traveling in rock and roll shows and sharing a bill?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, definitely. I think most - it's hard enough for an adult to deal with that type of situation, much less a child. I grew up on the road. I had a road manager who was barely a couple of years older "}
{"id": "1226887642", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "The Shangri-Las", "title": "Remembering Mary Weiss, lead singer of The Shangri-Las", "question_index": 21, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Other bands?"}
{"id": "1226887642", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "The Shangri-Las", "title": "Remembering Mary Weiss, lead singer of The Shangri-Las", "question_index": 22, "text": "The Shangri-Las - absolutely. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sometimes, of course. We have such a tough image, supposedly, but..."}
{"id": "1226887642", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "The Shangri-Las", "title": "Remembering Mary Weiss, lead singer of The Shangri-Las", "question_index": 23, "text": "So you didn't have a tough image before your success.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think a lot of that comes from surviving, from making people back down."}
{"id": "1226887642", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "The Shangri-Las", "title": "Remembering Mary Weiss, lead singer of The Shangri-Las", "question_index": 24, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I never thought much about image. I just didn't like chiffon dresses and high heels."}
{"id": "1226887642", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "The Shangri-Las", "title": "Remembering Mary Weiss, lead singer of The Shangri-Las", "question_index": 25, "text": "Did anyone ever try - anyone, like, from a record company ever try to make The Shangri-Las more girlish and glamorous and less kind of tough-looking in, you know, your boots and pants?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, that's as honest as I can be. And I never liked women's slacks back then. You know, they didn't have low-rise pants in 1964. They just didn't make them. So I used to go to a place on Eighth "}
{"id": "1226887642", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "The Shangri-Las", "title": "Remembering Mary Weiss, lead singer of The Shangri-Las", "question_index": 26, "text": "Let's hear, but talk about first, another really famous Shangri-Las recording. And I'm thinking of \"Leader Of The Pack.\"", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2007 interview with Mary Weiss, former lead singer of the '60s singing group The Shangri-Las. She died last week at age 75."}
{"id": "1226887642", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "The Shangri-Las", "title": "Remembering Mary Weiss, lead singer of The Shangri-Las", "question_index": 27, "text": "Your first impression of the song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "1226887642", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "The Shangri-Las", "title": "Remembering Mary Weiss, lead singer of The Shangri-Las", "question_index": 28, "text": "Why were you so reluctant?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I really had to sit down with this one. I took it home and listened to it for a very long time before I agreed to do it."}
{"id": "1226887642", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "The Shangri-Las", "title": "Remembering Mary Weiss, lead singer of The Shangri-Las", "question_index": 29, "text": "Did you rehearse this song differently than you usually rehearsed songs because of the spoken parts in it and the drama?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Even - I mean, even at the time, it was pretty much out there, I mean, in England, there was a very rigid environment, even globally. I mean, the record was banned in England the first time it came ou"}
{"id": "1226887642", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "The Shangri-Las", "title": "Remembering Mary Weiss, lead singer of The Shangri-Las", "question_index": 30, "text": "Well, why don't we hear the song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, usually I'd rehearse those home initially, and I remember having a hard time with certain songs where we'd actually dim lights in the studio so I could feel, like, alone in order to be able to d"}
{"id": "1226887642", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "The Shangri-Las", "title": "Remembering Mary Weiss, lead singer of The Shangri-Las", "question_index": 31, "text": "And this is The Shangri-Las, \"Leader Of The Pack.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "1226887642", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "The Shangri-Las", "title": "Remembering Mary Weiss, lead singer of The Shangri-Las", "question_index": 32, "text": "That's The Shangri-Las. My guest, Mary Weiss, was the lead singer of the group. You know, as we were saying, The Shangri-Las had the image of being very tough. What was your neighborhood like in Queens when you were growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Is she really going out with him? Oh, there she is, let's ask her. Betty, is that Jimmy's ring your wearing? Mm-hmm (ph). Gee, it must be great riding with him. Is he picking you up after school today"}
{"id": "1226887642", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "The Shangri-Las", "title": "Remembering Mary Weiss, lead singer of The Shangri-Las", "question_index": 33, "text": "What did your mother do to support you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I probably would consider it middle to low middle class. There were a lot of kids in the neighborhood. An average neighborhood, pretty much."}
{"id": "1226887642", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "The Shangri-Las", "title": "Remembering Mary Weiss, lead singer of The Shangri-Las", "question_index": 34, "text": "So you were pretty much scraping by?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She had periodic jobs on occasion, but nothing really substantial."}
{"id": "1226887642", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "The Shangri-Las", "title": "Remembering Mary Weiss, lead singer of The Shangri-Las", "question_index": 35, "text": "So it must have been really welcomed when you started making a lot of money.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, absolutely."}
{"id": "1226887642", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "The Shangri-Las", "title": "Remembering Mary Weiss, lead singer of The Shangri-Las", "question_index": 36, "text": "And did you send a lot back to your mother?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There you go."}
{"id": "1226887642", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "The Shangri-Las", "title": "Remembering Mary Weiss, lead singer of The Shangri-Las", "question_index": 37, "text": "What are you hoping for musically and professionally this time around? You stayed away from the music business since the late '60s. There was so much litigation. You were so kind of disillusioned with the business at that point. You stayed away for decades. What do you want this time around?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Always. We kind of raised her, as much as we could."}
{"id": "1226887642", "date": "2024-01-26", "guest": "The Shangri-Las", "title": "Remembering Mary Weiss, lead singer of The Shangri-Las", "question_index": 38, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, I want music. The funny thing about it now is I'm not a kid, there is no ladder I'm trying to climb, I have nothing to prove. No one can remove what I've done from my past. It is what it is."}
{"id": "1227857779", "date": "2024-01-30", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "'New Yorker' writer traces the current U.S. border crisis back to the Cold War", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The battle over immigration is continuing in Congress and in the presidential campaign. States in the South and in the North are trying to manage the influx of more migrants than they can deal with while there's a humanitarian crisis at the border. Migrants crossing the southern border - or trying to - used to be primarily from Mexico. Now they're primarily from Central and South America. Trump is promising that if he wins, he'll oversee the largest mass deportation in American history. My guest, Jonathan Blitzer, is the author of a new book about how today's crisis at the border connects with the U.S. foreign policy and immigration policy starting with the Cold War of the mid 1960s through the Reagan era, when the U.S. bolstered Latin American dictators in an attempt to prevent the spread of communism. He writes about the Trump administration, as well. The book is told through the personal stories of three people and the choices they made to deal with or escape terror, corruption and economic crises in their countries and the consequences they faced. He also examines how their personal stories illustrate the history of American politics that helped create the crises in Central America. Blitzer is a staff writer at The New Yorker covering immigration. His new book is called \"Everyone Who Is Gone Is Here: The United States, Central America, And The Making Of A Crisis.\" We recorded our interview yesterday. Jonathan Blitzer, welcome back to FRESH AIR. So I have to say that over the years, I've done a lot of interviews about how the U.S. helped bolster dictatorships in Central and South America to prevent the spread of communism, the logic being that the authoritarian rulers were keeping back the Communists, and if they fell, Communists would take over. I've also done a lot of interviews about, you know, current immigration policy. Yours is the first book I've read, the first reporting that I remember seeing that connects the two - the support of U.S. dictatorships and the immigration crisis we're seeing now. What made you want to connect those two?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1227857779", "date": "2024-01-30", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "'New Yorker' writer traces the current U.S. border crisis back to the Cold War", "question_index": 1, "text": "A White House official recently told you that immigration has become a Democratic issue. What did he mean by that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, a few things - the history of U.S. foreign policy and the history of U.S. immigration policy, which, of course, all revolves around domestic politics, it involves politics in the region and so o"}
{"id": "1227857779", "date": "2024-01-30", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "'New Yorker' writer traces the current U.S. border crisis back to the Cold War", "question_index": 2, "text": "I think the White House official was also implying that authoritarian rulers use this to scare people into voting for them. And I'm wondering if you think that Trump falls into this category of exploiting the immigration crisis for his own good and if that's the pattern that you see in authoritarian leaders around the world right now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The idea is in the U.S. now, we are obviously fighting the rise of populist authoritarianism. It's not just an American phenomenon, sadly, it's an international phenomenon. And nothing has really cata"}
{"id": "1227857779", "date": "2024-01-30", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "'New Yorker' writer traces the current U.S. border crisis back to the Cold War", "question_index": 3, "text": "You write that for more than a century, the U.S. has devised one policy after another to keep people out of the country, and for more than a century, it has failed. Certainly recently, a lot of the policy to keep people out of the country has been deterrence. This was especially true during the Trump administration creating really harsh policies, including the separation of parents from children as a deterrence to other people who were thinking of crossing the border into the U.S. seeking asylum. And you say, like, that has totally failed. And you offer an example of that in your book. You visited a housing complex in Mexico where people were trying to enter the U.S., and a lot of the people who you met there had already been in the U.S., hadn't gotten asylum and spent time in prison. So tell us about those people and why they were still, after being deported from the U.S., trying to get back in. After being imprisoned in the U.S., trying to get back in.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I definitely think so. And I think Trump is not only a paradigmatic case, but I think on a scale and with a ferocity and at a volume that we've never really seen before in the modern era, he has weapo"}
{"id": "1227857779", "date": "2024-01-30", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "'New Yorker' writer traces the current U.S. border crisis back to the Cold War", "question_index": 4, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jonathan Blitzer. He's a staff writer for The New Yorker and author of the new book \"Everyone Who Is Gone Is Here: The United States, Central America, And The Making Of A Crisis.\" And the crisis that he's writing about is the immigration crisis. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This was at a housing complex along the southern border of Mexico and Guatemala. And often, you have these kinds of - sort of echoes through time and space where, you know, you can best understand the"}
{"id": "1227857779", "date": "2024-01-30", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "'New Yorker' writer traces the current U.S. border crisis back to the Cold War", "question_index": 5, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jonathan Blitzer, a staff writer for The New Yorker who covers immigration. \"His new book is called Everyone Who Is Gone Is Here: The United States, Central America, And The Making Of A Crisis.\" Why is it the story no longer about Mexican migrants trying to cross the border into the U.S., but it's more about Central and South America? What changed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This was at a housing complex along the southern border of Mexico and Guatemala. And often, you have these kinds of - sort of echoes through time and space where, you know, you can best understand the"}
{"id": "1227857779", "date": "2024-01-30", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "'New Yorker' writer traces the current U.S. border crisis back to the Cold War", "question_index": 6, "text": "Now, you said that the gangs in Central and South America that people are fleeing from, those gangs are a result of U.S. deportation policy. Can you connect the dots for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Around 2014 - and obviously, these things are slower-rolling phenomena. But around 2014, you started to see this shift where, you know, the typical profile of the person arriving at the U.S. southern "}
{"id": "1227857779", "date": "2024-01-30", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "'New Yorker' writer traces the current U.S. border crisis back to the Cold War", "question_index": 7, "text": "So in other words, the people who came to the U.S. and had no opportunities and became gang leaders and were then imprisoned and then deported, go back to El Salvador. And the life they know at this point is a criminal gang kind of life. And do gang leaders become part of the government or part of the, like, massive corruption?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So the story - I mean, it's kind of quite an amazing thing to think about now, especially when during the Trump years, you know, we heard almost daily about the Salvadoran street gang MS-13. Tha"}
{"id": "1227857779", "date": "2024-01-30", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "'New Yorker' writer traces the current U.S. border crisis back to the Cold War", "question_index": 8, "text": "Standard American organized crime.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What we see most particularly with the gang situation in places like El Salvador and Honduras is that it's almost like a parallel state. You know, the governments were weak or corrupt and, you know, d"}
{"id": "1227857779", "date": "2024-01-30", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "'New Yorker' writer traces the current U.S. border crisis back to the Cold War", "question_index": 9, "text": "What you're describing also connects to asylum law. Asylum law was written in 1980? And what was it written to address then that isn't quite working now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly, exactly. And it really bled dry the economy. I mean, you know, tens of millions of dollars over the years were tied up in extortion rackets. And so, you know, as these - as the power of these"}
{"id": "1227857779", "date": "2024-01-30", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "'New Yorker' writer traces the current U.S. border crisis back to the Cold War", "question_index": 10, "text": "Like Russia, like dissidents in Russia.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there were a few things in the writing of - in the codifying of asylum law in America that kind of didn't line up with the reality at the border and beyond. The first is this - the idea of asylu"}
{"id": "1227857779", "date": "2024-01-30", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "'New Yorker' writer traces the current U.S. border crisis back to the Cold War", "question_index": 11, "text": "And Jews from Russia.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly, exactly."}
{"id": "1227857779", "date": "2024-01-30", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "'New Yorker' writer traces the current U.S. border crisis back to the Cold War", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, let's take another short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jonathan Blitzer. He's a staff writer for The New Yorker who covers immigration. His new book is called \"Everyone Who Is Gone Is Here: The United States, Central America, And The Making Of A Crisis.\" We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly, exactly. So, you know, there were populations that - you know, in the past, there wasn't a kind of formal system for how the U.S. dealt with broad populations like that. And so the idea of th"}
{"id": "1227857779", "date": "2024-01-30", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "'New Yorker' writer traces the current U.S. border crisis back to the Cold War", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Jonathan Blitzer, author of the new book \"Everyone Who Is Gone Is Here: The United States, Central America, And The Making Of A Crisis.\" The crisis is the immigration crisis. He covers immigration for The New Yorker, where he's a staff writer. His new book is about how the current immigration crisis in the U.S. and at the southern border is connected with American foreign policy dating back to the Cold War of the mid-'60s through the Reagan administration. He also writes about more recent immigration issues, including what happened during the Trump administration. Your book tells the stories of three people who are in great danger in Central American countries. And through those stories, you tell the larger story of how American policy has affected the countries that they're fleeing from, and also, you tell the story of how they dealt with the crises. So the first story that you tell is the story of Juan Romagoza. Why did you choose his story? In other words, what I'm asking you is what were you hoping his story would illustrate in terms of the larger story of the immigration crisis?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly, exactly. So, you know, there were populations that - you know, in the past, there wasn't a kind of formal system for how the U.S. dealt with broad populations like that. And so the idea of th"}
{"id": "1227857779", "date": "2024-01-30", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "'New Yorker' writer traces the current U.S. border crisis back to the Cold War", "question_index": 14, "text": "You know, when I was reading the part of your book about his story and the torture that he endured, it was just sickening. And I've read about many other cases of torture in Central and South America over the years because that has been very well reported on. But to read it again, like, I don't even want to describe what it was because it's really just that sickening and upsetting, and it's hard to imagine him surviving it. And again, this was during a period when we were - when the American government was supporting El Salvador, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, Juan fled El Salvador in the early 1980s. He had been brutalized and tortured by the National Guard at the time. He was a doctor by training, was tortured so badly that he couldn't continue "}
{"id": "1227857779", "date": "2024-01-30", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "'New Yorker' writer traces the current U.S. border crisis back to the Cold War", "question_index": 15, "text": "So we were complicit in that torture.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. That's right."}
{"id": "1227857779", "date": "2024-01-30", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "'New Yorker' writer traces the current U.S. border crisis back to the Cold War", "question_index": 16, "text": "Correct me if I'm wrong in saying that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, you know, something that Juan..."}
{"id": "1227857779", "date": "2024-01-30", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "'New Yorker' writer traces the current U.S. border crisis back to the Cold War", "question_index": 17, "text": "We weren't in the room. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I think that that's fair to say. I think that that's fair to say. You know, the complicity was indirect. I mean, we were, you know, funding..."}
{"id": "1227857779", "date": "2024-01-30", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "'New Yorker' writer traces the current U.S. border crisis back to the Cold War", "question_index": 18, "text": "So where is he living now, and what is he doing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. Exactly. I mean, the U.S. government was funding the Salvadoran military. It knew about this and many other abuses being perpetrated by the military. It looked the other way. So, you know, co"}
{"id": "1227857779", "date": "2024-01-30", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "'New Yorker' writer traces the current U.S. border crisis back to the Cold War", "question_index": 19, "text": "So let's talk about what's happening now. And I should say we were recording this on Monday. Our listeners are hearing this on Tuesday, and we don't know what will have happened in between Monday morning and Tuesday. But right now there's a bill before the Senate, a bipartisan deal on immigration. Trump has been trying to convince Republicans that they shouldn't sign this deal, even though Republicans got a lot of what they're asking for in this deal. And, you know, what people are saying is that Trump doesn't want the Republicans to sign this deal because it would diminish the ability of Trump to use immigration as an issue in the election because if the Biden presidency helped move the ball forward on immigration, then Trump can't demonize Biden. What do you know about what happened behind the scenes with this? Do you have any insight?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Juan is now retired and living back in El Salvador. And so he eventually - he was one of the few Salvadorans to have applied for asylum in the mid-'80s and actually got it. And so he has U.S. citizens"}
{"id": "1227857779", "date": "2024-01-30", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "'New Yorker' writer traces the current U.S. border crisis back to the Cold War", "question_index": 20, "text": "Attached to this immigration bill is, you know, aid to Israel and Ukraine. So if the bill doesn't pass, Israel and Ukraine don't get the aid. Trump has always tried to present himself as being pro-Israel. But by opposing this bipartisan deal, he's stopping aid to Israel.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean, I think what's so unique about this moment in immigration politics is actually the Democratic role in all of it. I mean, the Republican side, while it is the force that's mainly driving "}
{"id": "1227857779", "date": "2024-01-30", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "'New Yorker' writer traces the current U.S. border crisis back to the Cold War", "question_index": 21, "text": "You know, Mitch McConnell, the minority leader in the Senate, says that Republicans are in a quandary because of Trump's opposition. If Republicans, like, support immigration reform and got a lot of what they wanted in this bill, why does it need to be a quandary? Why are Republicans so afraid of Trump, who is standing so many - he has so many indictments against him now. He just lost another case to E. Jean Carroll. Like, I don't really understand why they're so afraid of him, so afraid to cross him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. There's - I mean, there's a pretty ugly contradiction here for Republicans. And Trump's involvement in trying to scuttle these talks really brings it even more clearly to the surface. I mean, I "}
{"id": "1227857779", "date": "2024-01-30", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "'New Yorker' writer traces the current U.S. border crisis back to the Cold War", "question_index": 22, "text": "Well, let's take another short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jonathan Blitzer. He's a staff writer for The New Yorker who covers immigration. His new book is called \"Everyone Who Is Gone Is Here: The United States, Central America, And The Making Of A Crisis.\" He's a staff writer for The New Yorker. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, one administration official kind of mused to me almost wistfully the other day that, you know, if only this Senate deal had taken wing before, you know, New Hampshire, before Iowa, maybe the"}
{"id": "1227857779", "date": "2024-01-30", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "'New Yorker' writer traces the current U.S. border crisis back to the Cold War", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Jonathan Blitzer. He's a staff writer for The New Yorker, and he covers immigration. He's been writing about immigration for years. His new book is called \"Everyone Who Is Gone Is Here: The United States, Central America, And The Making Of A Crisis.\" And, of course, the crisis he's writing about is the immigration crisis. What is Trump promising to do about immigration if he is reelected?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, one administration official kind of mused to me almost wistfully the other day that, you know, if only this Senate deal had taken wing before, you know, New Hampshire, before Iowa, maybe the"}
{"id": "1227857779", "date": "2024-01-30", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "'New Yorker' writer traces the current U.S. border crisis back to the Cold War", "question_index": 24, "text": "What has the Biden administration done to undo some of the Trump immigration policies?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, Trump - it's such a strange thing. For people who cover immigration - I know I'm speaking for a broad community of people out here - it's so strange to see Trump held up as this kind of para"}
{"id": "1227857779", "date": "2024-01-30", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "'New Yorker' writer traces the current U.S. border crisis back to the Cold War", "question_index": 25, "text": "We need to take another break here but we'll pick up where we left off. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jonathan Blitzer. He's the author of a new book about the immigration crisis called \"Everyone Who Is Gone Is Here: The United States, Central America, And The Making Of A Crisis.\" He's a staff writer for The New Yorker. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it's interesting. The Biden administration has gotten hit hard from all sides for being almost lethargic on immigration policy. But actually, the Biden administration has been very, very active on "}
{"id": "1227857779", "date": "2024-01-30", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "'New Yorker' writer traces the current U.S. border crisis back to the Cold War", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Jonathan Blitzer. He's a staff writer for The New Yorker, and he covers immigration. He's been writing about immigration for years. His new book is called \"Everyone Who Is Gone Is Here: The United States, Central America, And The Making Of A Crisis.\" And, of course, the crisis he's writing about is the immigration crisis. There's an ongoing dispute now between the Biden administration and Texas Governor Greg Abbott about the legality of the concertina wire, the razor wire that the Abbott administration erected as a barrier between Texas and the Mexican border. And also there're the buoys that the Abbott administration installed on the banks of the Rio Grande River. There was a new Supreme Court ruling on the razor wire. Can you describe that ruling?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it's interesting. The Biden administration has gotten hit hard from all sides for being almost lethargic on immigration policy. But actually, the Biden administration has been very, very active on "}
{"id": "1227857779", "date": "2024-01-30", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "'New Yorker' writer traces the current U.S. border crisis back to the Cold War", "question_index": 27, "text": "Have you heard any really good suggestions for immigration reform? And do you have any ideas of your own that you think would be good reforms 'cause the system really is a mess? We can't depend on Congress to fix it 'cause now that they have a bipartisan agreement, they still might not pass it. And, you know, at the same time, like, the U.S. can't accommodate everyone who wants to come here from around the world, so there has to be a policy. Any suggestions that you've heard or of your own?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Basically, the governor of Texas has flouted long-standing federal law that says that the federal government and not the states has kind of primary responsibility over immigration enforcement. And so "}
{"id": "1227857779", "date": "2024-01-30", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "'New Yorker' writer traces the current U.S. border crisis back to the Cold War", "question_index": 28, "text": "Well, Jonathan Blitzer, thank you so much for joining us again on FRESH AIR. And thank you for your reporting and your book. I really appreciate you being with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I - it's just such - it's such a conundrum that haunts anyone and everyone who works in this space, whether it's journalistic or legal. You know, it's hard to give up on the fact that Congre"}
{"id": "1227857779", "date": "2024-01-30", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "'New Yorker' writer traces the current U.S. border crisis back to the Cold War", "question_index": 29, "text": "Jonathan Blitzer is a staff writer at The New Yorker and author of the new book, \"Everyone Who Is Gone Is Here: The United States, Central America, And The Making Of A Crisis.\" We recorded our interview yesterday. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, my guest will be Emma Stone. She's nominated for an Oscar for her starring role in \"Poor Things,\" which is also nominated for best picture and best director. Her co-star Mark Ruffalo is also nominated. Stone won an Oscar for her performance in \"La La Land\" and was nominated for \"Birdman\" and \"The Favourite.\" I hope you'll join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram @nprfreshair.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks so much for having me."}
{"id": "1227857779", "date": "2024-01-30", "guest": "Jonathan Blitzer", "title": "'New Yorker' writer traces the current U.S. border crisis back to the Cold War", "question_index": 30, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Thea Chaloner, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks so much for having me."}
{"id": "1228607265", "date": "2024-02-02", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Like it or not, we live in Oppenheimer's world,' says director Christopher Nolan", "question_index": 0, "text": "OK. That's a scene from \"Oppenheimer,\" and my guest is the writer and director of the film, Christopher Nolan. Christopher Nolan, welcome back to FRESH AIR. It's a pleasure to have you back on the show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Leslie Groves) Zero would be nice."}
{"id": "1228607265", "date": "2024-02-02", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Like it or not, we live in Oppenheimer's world,' says director Christopher Nolan", "question_index": 1, "text": "That's such a frightening idea. And I know that the scientists were really convinced that there wasn't going to be this atmospheric ignition where the whole atmosphere would catch on fire and destroy Earth. But you're not - I guess you never really know, based on theoretical physics, what's going to happen when you blow up an atom bomb. So what was it like for you to think about that as you were making the movie?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1228607265", "date": "2024-02-02", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Like it or not, we live in Oppenheimer's world,' says director Christopher Nolan", "question_index": 2, "text": "So much work went into making the first atom bomb, and so many theoretical physicists were involved, all the calculations, and then you have the reality of it exploding. So the bomb worked. All their work paid off. It was a success. And in the film, all the scientists are gathered and they're applauding. That's before it was actually used for real. Knowing what you know now, how did it feel to watch their enthusiasm, their applause, to film that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think for me, that knowledge that - leading up to the Trinity test, the leading scientists led by Oppenheimer, they could not completely eliminate the possibility of this chain reaction. That was on"}
{"id": "1228607265", "date": "2024-02-02", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Like it or not, we live in Oppenheimer's world,' says director Christopher Nolan", "question_index": 3, "text": "What's your approach to biopics? Like, what liberties to take and what to be faithful to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It felt very exciting. I felt lost in the excitement of it. And that was really the idea. I mean, at the heart of the film, there's a pivot, and it's really the pivot between the successful Trinity te"}
{"id": "1228607265", "date": "2024-02-02", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Like it or not, we live in Oppenheimer's world,' says director Christopher Nolan", "question_index": 4, "text": "When you're not working, do you live in your head a lot? And does your head become a kind of dark place", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in a funny sort of way, my approach is to not even acknowledge biopic as a genre. In other words, if something works, like \"Lawrence For Arabia,\" for example, you don't think of it as a biopic. "}
{"id": "1228607265", "date": "2024-02-02", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Like it or not, we live in Oppenheimer's world,' says director Christopher Nolan", "question_index": 5, "text": "where negative thoughts consume you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in a funny sort of way, my approach is to not even acknowledge biopic as a genre. In other words, if something works, like \"Lawrence For Arabia,\" for example, you don't think of it as a biopic. "}
{"id": "1228607265", "date": "2024-02-02", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Like it or not, we live in Oppenheimer's world,' says director Christopher Nolan", "question_index": 6, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Christopher Nolan, and he wrote and directed the new film \"Oppenheimer.\" He also made the films \"Dunkirk,\" \"Tenet,\" the Batman trilogy, \"Inception,\" \"Insomnia\" and \"Memento.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I mean, I certainly live in my head a lot. It's how I work. You know, I think \"Oppenheimer,\" of all the films I've worked on, it's the one that I actually find the most disturbing and the most und"}
{"id": "1228607265", "date": "2024-02-02", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Like it or not, we live in Oppenheimer's world,' says director Christopher Nolan", "question_index": 7, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Christopher Nolan. He wrote and directed the new film \"Oppenheimer,\" about the man who was called the father of the atom bomb. He also made the films \"Dunkirk,\" \"Tenet,\" the Batman trilogy, \"Inception,\" \"Insomnia\" and \"Memento.\" So I want to ask you about dreams. You know, you edit some of your films out of chronological sequence, and I think dreams are that way, too. Like, dreams often don't make any sense at all. You have to kind of look for the meaning within them and interpret them. But they don't make chronological sense, you just kind of hop from one scene to another that may or may not be related. Do you think that your dream life has influenced your editing life at all?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I mean, I certainly live in my head a lot. It's how I work. You know, I think \"Oppenheimer,\" of all the films I've worked on, it's the one that I actually find the most disturbing and the most und"}
{"id": "1228607265", "date": "2024-02-02", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Like it or not, we live in Oppenheimer's world,' says director Christopher Nolan", "question_index": 8, "text": "And one of your - I mean, \"Inception\" is literally about dreams. It's about, like, stealing dreams and implanting information in someone's mind through dreams, like, tapping into other people's dreams.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1228607265", "date": "2024-02-02", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Like it or not, we live in Oppenheimer's world,' says director Christopher Nolan", "question_index": 9, "text": "So in \"Inception,\" your movie about dreams, Leonardo DiCaprio says, we never remember the beginning of a dream. Is that true? I mean, it's a question I've never asked myself.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's also about what you just described, it's about the time scale of dreams. You know, \"Inception\" is very much about how you can have a much longer - a feeling of a much longer period of your "}
{"id": "1228607265", "date": "2024-02-02", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Like it or not, we live in Oppenheimer's world,' says director Christopher Nolan", "question_index": 10, "text": "I don't know if I remember the beginning of my dreams because I'm lucky if I remember my dreams, and when I do, it's usually I remember the mood. I remember a few frames of the dream.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1228607265", "date": "2024-02-02", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Like it or not, we live in Oppenheimer's world,' says director Christopher Nolan", "question_index": 11, "text": "I don't really remember the chronology very well and I have no idea where it started. So what made you think of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1228607265", "date": "2024-02-02", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Like it or not, we live in Oppenheimer's world,' says director Christopher Nolan", "question_index": 12, "text": "You know, that whole question of, like, oh, we only dream in black-and-white, people used to ask each other that - do you dream in black-and-white or in color? And do you think that was because our only understanding in that time of what imagery looked like in representation outside of paintings was film and TV, which were in black-and-white?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wrote \"Inception,\" you know, very much from my own impression of the way I dream and sort of dream rules, and I sort of trusted that there'd be enough people in the audience that roughly corresponde"}
{"id": "1228607265", "date": "2024-02-02", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Like it or not, we live in Oppenheimer's world,' says director Christopher Nolan", "question_index": 13, "text": "And photographs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that's..."}
{"id": "1228607265", "date": "2024-02-02", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Like it or not, we live in Oppenheimer's world,' says director Christopher Nolan", "question_index": 14, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. No, I think you've hit the nail on the head, actually. And I think it relates to the earlier answer of the relationship between, you know, our view of dreams and our view of motion pictures."}
{"id": "1228607265", "date": "2024-02-02", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Like it or not, we live in Oppenheimer's world,' says director Christopher Nolan", "question_index": 15, "text": "Seen on an IMAX, and a lot of people will not have the opportunity of seeing it that way. But I think some people are puzzled, like, why shoot a movie that's largely people talking to each other and people thinking and people being anguished over the possibilities of the bomb? Why shoot that in IMAX, which is usually reserved for films that have incredible landscapes or that have incredible, fantastical cinematography?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The way in which you remember movies is very similar to the way in which you remember dreams. And every now and again, you see a film that taps that in a way. You know, I think \"Memento,\" for a lot of"}
{"id": "1228607265", "date": "2024-02-02", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Like it or not, we live in Oppenheimer's world,' says director Christopher Nolan", "question_index": 16, "text": "Does it pain you to think that probably a lot of people will end up watching \"Oppenheimer\" on their phones or on little tablets?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I've used IMAX for years, and going into \"Oppenheimer,\" talking to Hoyte, my DP, we knew that it would give us, with its high resolution, its sort of extraordinary analog color, sharpness, all o"}
{"id": "1228607265", "date": "2024-02-02", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Like it or not, we live in Oppenheimer's world,' says director Christopher Nolan", "question_index": 17, "text": "I'm interested in your relationship to technology. I mean, you're using state-of-the-art technology, you know, 70 millimeter for IMAX. At the same time, I've read that you don't have real, like, tech cellphone. I think you have, like, a flip phone, maybe. And I think there's other, like, tech things like email, maybe, that you don't use. And so it strikes me as kind of strange that you'd use such, like, state-of-the-art, you know, cinematography, but, you know, reject things like a cellphone. At the same time, I know that there's - like, CGI. You don't like to use CGI 'cause it looks fake to you. So, like, where do you draw the line with technology?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not at all. I actually, you know, I'm one of the first generations of filmmakers who grew up with home video. So, you know, my family got its first VHS player when I was about 11 years old. And so"}
{"id": "1228607265", "date": "2024-02-02", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Like it or not, we live in Oppenheimer's world,' says director Christopher Nolan", "question_index": 18, "text": "Thank you so much for coming back to our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Technology is whatever the tools are available to us. So I shoot my films on celluloid film, preferably IMAX celluloid film, because it's the best analogy for the way the eye sees the world, so it giv"}
{"id": "1229763724", "date": "2024-02-07", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "MSNBC host Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. \"How To Be A Civil Rights Widow\" is a chapter title in a new book by my guest, Joy-Ann Reid, host of the MSNBC evening show \"The ReidOut.\" The widow is Myrlie Evers. Her husband was Medgar Evers, a civil rights activist who served as the NAACP's Mississippi field secretary and risked his life to push for voting rights, desegregation and freedom. Medgar and Myrlie were both from Mississippi. Myrlie constantly worried about her husband's and children's safety, with good reason. Their house was firebombed. Later, in June 1963, Medgar Evers was assassinated just outside the door of their home. She heard the gunshot and found her husband bleeding out. He was the first in a series of high-profile assassinations. Next came President Kennedy, Malcolm X, Martin Luther King and Robert Kennedy. Joy Reid describes her new book, \"Medgar And Myrlie,\" as a love story between two Black people in Mississippi, their love for their children and the higher love it took for Black Americans to love America and to fight for it, even in the state that butchered more Black bodies via lynching than any other. The love story between Myrlie and Medgar Evers is also fraught with tension, with Myrlie objecting to how much he was away from home, leaving her wondering if he loved his work more than he loved his family, and often leaving her alone to deal with the constant phone calls threatening the lives of her family. After her husband's death, Myrlie became an activist, an in-demand public speaker, and eventually, the chairman of the board of the NAACP. She gave the invocation at President Obama's second inauguration. Joy Reid, welcome to FRESH AIR. I see you so often on my TV.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1229763724", "date": "2024-02-07", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "MSNBC host Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 1, "text": "It's a pleasure to have you here. You think, and rightfully so, I think, that Medgar Evers hasn't really gotten the recognition he deserves as an important figure in the Civil Rights Movement. I think he's more famous for getting assassinated than for the work he actually did.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you Terry, it is so wonderful to be here."}
{"id": "1229763724", "date": "2024-02-07", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "MSNBC host Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 2, "text": "Give us an overview of the work that he did.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's true. I think that's true. And, you know, I think part of that is because of the just momentous year in which he was murdered, 1963. So many things happened in 1963 that kind of overwhelmed kno"}
{"id": "1229763724", "date": "2024-02-07", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "MSNBC host Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 3, "text": "And then there's James Meredith. And Medgar Evers had applied to Ole Miss, the University of Mississippi. And, of course, he was denied admission because he was Black. They were not accepting Black students. So when James Meredith applied, testing desegregation, it was Medgar Evers who went right to his support. What did he do to help Meredith get in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So you start with Emmett Till, at the time, most high-profile lynching that had taken place in America. This was a 14-year-old boy who had family in Mississippi, had roots in Mississippi, but lived in"}
{"id": "1229763724", "date": "2024-02-07", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "MSNBC host Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, James Meredith actually made the call to the NAACP to Thurgood Marshall from Medgar and Myrlie Evers' home. So he calls and, you know, it is Medgar that gets him representation from the NAACP af"}
{"id": "1229763724", "date": "2024-02-07", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "MSNBC host Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 5, "text": "Medgar Evers was the Mississippi field secretary for the NAACP, but his approach often diverged from the organizations. The NAACP, under Roy Wilkins, defined its work as being work through the courts. But Evers didn't always want to work through the - I mean, he appreciated that the work was being done in the courts, but he thought more was needed. What were the kind of protests that he helped organize?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he talks James Meredith down, which was not easy to do. But his brother Charles was similar in, like, temperament. So he knew how to deal with someone like him. And he manages to call back and get"}
{"id": "1229763724", "date": "2024-02-07", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "MSNBC host Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 6, "text": "So a lot of people in Mississippi were too afraid to register for the NAACP or to, you know, call out racism. But the people who were willing to do that were the high school students and the college students. And so Medgar Evers wanted to work with them. What did the NAACP say to that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, and, you know, in addition to being the field secretary, he was actually the first field secretary. They created the position for him as, in part, a way to discourage him from reapplying to Ole "}
{"id": "1229763724", "date": "2024-02-07", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "MSNBC host Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 7, "text": "I think it's interesting the way you get to some divisions within the civil rights movement at the time, not only between Evers and the NAACP, but Evers and groups like the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee and CORE, the Congress on Racial Equality - groups that were coming down to Mississippi. He was concerned about the Freedom Riders coming down to Mississippi because he thought it would jeopardize the work that Mississippi civil rights workers and activists were already doing. What was he worried about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Quite simply, they said this is not what we want. And Medgar was threatened with being fired multiple times because he believed that the courage that was needed was found in the youth. It was young pe"}
{"id": "1229763724", "date": "2024-02-07", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "MSNBC host Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 8, "text": "Expand on that. What happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think part of it was that he had this fundamental belief that people needed to fight for liberation for themselves. They didn't need the courage imported in from the North, and that only when "}
{"id": "1229763724", "date": "2024-02-07", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "MSNBC host Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 9, "text": "On the other hand, like, the Freedom Rides brought so much national attention to what was happening in the South.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Bob Moses and other activists came down. Of course, Bob Moses was this brilliant activist from New York and a math genius. And he comes down, and he winds up working in the Delta, actually using so"}
{"id": "1229763724", "date": "2024-02-07", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "MSNBC host Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 10, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Joy Reid, host of the MSNBC weekday evening show \"The ReidOut.\" Her new book about Medgar and Myrlie Evers is called \"Medgar And Myrlie.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It absolutely did. And, you know, it's interesting because the Freedom Riders themselves really wanted Dr. King to be on those buses with them, because they thought that they needed his notoriety in o"}
{"id": "1229763724", "date": "2024-02-07", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "MSNBC host Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Joy Reid, host of the MSNBC show \"The ReidOut.\" Her new book, \"Medgar And Myrlie,\" is about Medgar Evers, the civil rights leader from Mississippi who was assassinated in 1963, and his wife, Myrlie Evers, who constantly worried about her husband's safety. After his death, she became a civil rights activist and eventually became the board chair of the organization he worked, for the NAACP. Medgar Evers fought in World War II. He was actually on Omaha Beach on D-Day. After he returned home, how did he see the U.S, and in particular Mississippi, differently than he'd seen it before?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It absolutely did. And, you know, it's interesting because the Freedom Riders themselves really wanted Dr. King to be on those buses with them, because they thought that they needed his notoriety in o"}
{"id": "1229763724", "date": "2024-02-07", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "MSNBC host Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 12, "text": "I want to get to an early part of his life story when he is exposed to a lynching of his father's friend, and I think this is a real, like, significant story. Tell us what happened.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, what's fascinating about Medgar Evers and all of those Black men who fought in World War I and World War II is that when they returned, they had traveled more widely than most white Am"}
{"id": "1229763724", "date": "2024-02-07", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "MSNBC host Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 13, "text": "And it was his father who collected the body and brought him to the funeral home.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, the Evers family knew a man named Mr. Tingle who lived in town, in the town of Decatur. And when Medgar was either 7 or 11, depending on whether he or Charles Evers, his brother, who was a very os"}
{"id": "1229763724", "date": "2024-02-07", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "MSNBC host Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 14, "text": "Let's talk about how Medgar and Myrlie first met. They both went to the historically Black college Alcorn A&M, which later became Alcorn State University. He was 25 because he had already come back from the war, and she was 17. So that, at the time, seemed like a very big age difference. They were in different places in terms of fighting for equality. Describe her background.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. His father's uncle had a funeral home. And so his father - who they called Crazy Jim because he was one of the few Blacks who did not bow down to white people, which made white people think he wa"}
{"id": "1229763724", "date": "2024-02-07", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "MSNBC host Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 15, "text": "When she and Medgar Evers started seeing each other, he said, you're going to be the mother of my children. I'm going to shape you into the woman I want you to be. That made me very uncomfortable. I don't like it when men decide they want to be involved with women who they can mentor 'cause that ends up being a very unequal relationship. You don't want to be your boyfriend or your husband's student. You want to be their equal. So what was your reaction when you heard that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Myrlie Evers - Myrlie Louise Beasley, was her original last name - she grew up in Vicksburg, Miss., which was a rural town, obviously very segregated, just like all of Mississippi. And she was rais"}
{"id": "1229763724", "date": "2024-02-07", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "MSNBC host Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 16, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's funny because Myrlie's reaction was, you got a huge job ahead of you, buddy. She was actually angry..."}
{"id": "1229763724", "date": "2024-02-07", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "MSNBC host Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 17, "text": "And she said, we argued like crazy. They fought over his work. What were her objections?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...That he said that. It made her angry, and he would say things all the time that would annoy her, right? Like, he was challenging to her in one sense, is that - you know, he would talk to her about "}
{"id": "1229763724", "date": "2024-02-07", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "MSNBC host Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 18, "text": "Well, let's take another break here and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Joy Reid, host of the MSNBC show \"The ReidOut.\" Her new book about Medgar and Myrlie Evers is called \"Medgar And Myrlie.\" We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, Myrlie really did aspire to be a 1950s housewife. When she fell in love with this man, she thought they would go off into the sunset and he'd be an insurance salesman. And in fact, he "}
{"id": "1229763724", "date": "2024-02-07", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "MSNBC host Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Joy Reid, host of the MSNBC show \"The ReidOut.\" Her new book, \"Medgar And Myrlie,\" is about Medgar Evers, the civil rights leader from Mississippi who was assassinated in 1963, and his wife, Myrlie Evers, who constantly worried about her husband's safety. After his death, she became a civil rights activist and eventually became the board chair of the NAACP, the organization her husband had worked for. One of the fights Medgar and Myrlie had was over dinner guests because he was always bringing home people from the NAACP and sometimes celebrities like Lena Horne, and she was expected to cook an extra dinner for them. And she said, we do not have the money for this. We're struggling. And he accused her of not knowing how to manage the money well, which just infuriated her because she was very, very careful with money. And is this the time that they actually came to blows?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, Myrlie really did aspire to be a 1950s housewife. When she fell in love with this man, she thought they would go off into the sunset and he'd be an insurance salesman. And in fact, he "}
{"id": "1229763724", "date": "2024-02-07", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "MSNBC host Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 20, "text": "One day or night, I forget which it was, when Medgar was working, Myrlie was at home with the children, and the house was firebombed. A Molotov cocktail was thrown through the window. She was pregnant at the time. How did she respond when she realized what was happening and the house started to catch on fire?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. This is one of the most sort of, you know, striking and volatile sort of parts of their marriage. So at one point, she says to him, we're poor, we don't have the money to do this. And he a"}
{"id": "1229763724", "date": "2024-02-07", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "MSNBC host Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 21, "text": "When President Kennedy gave a speech asking Congress to enact what basically became the Civil Rights Act of 1964 after Kennedy's assassination, so when Kennedy gave this speech, you know, asking Congress to enact legislation giving all Americans the right to be served in facilities that were open to the public and to seek greater protection for the right to vote and more fully enforce the Supreme Court's ruling to desegregate the schools, that just, like, flared up racist attacks in the South. And so it was a win for Medgar Evers and the movement, but it also increased the threats, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Myrlie, you know, is starting to doze off. She hears this crash and goes out and sees fire on her front lawn. Obviously, she's incredibly startled, and there had been these cars that would pass "}
{"id": "1229763724", "date": "2024-02-07", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "MSNBC host Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 22, "text": "The assassination happened one night while Myrlie and the children were home, they were in bed. She was expecting her husband. She hears this loud gunshot. She - you know, she recognizes this is trouble, you know, runs to the door and finds her husband's body at the threshold of the door. And he's bleeding, and it looks like he's bleeding out, which he was. Tell us more about what you know about that night.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. And, you know, the Klan absolutely sent a message in assassinating Medgar Evers literally hours after that speech. The thing that President Kennedy said that I think stung the racist South"}
{"id": "1229763724", "date": "2024-02-07", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "MSNBC host Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 23, "text": "There was a really large funeral procession after he died, and there was nearly a police riot because there were so many people. Would you describe that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, the children were - they got to stay up. You know, the three Evers children. Well, Van was a baby. He was only 3. But the two older children were allowed to sit up and watch President "}
{"id": "1229763724", "date": "2024-02-07", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "MSNBC host Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 24, "text": "They were prohibited from singing at this funeral procession.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it was a tremendous outpouring. You know, some 5,000 people came, and they packed into the auditorium, the space where they usually did their mass meetings, but it was over capacity. It was "}
{"id": "1229763724", "date": "2024-02-07", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "MSNBC host Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well, we have to take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Joy-Ann Reid, host of the MSNBC weekday evening show \"The ReidOut.\" Her new book about Medgar and Myrlie Evers is called \"Medgar And Myrlie.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. They were told they could only do a quiet, mournful march, and they were not to sing freedom songs at all. But these young people started singing \"This Little Light Of Mine.\" And it was Me"}
{"id": "1229763724", "date": "2024-02-07", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "MSNBC host Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Joy Reid, host of the MSNBC show \"The ReidOut.\" Her new book, \"Medgar And Myrlie,\" is about Medgar Evers, the civil rights leader from Mississippi who was assassinated in 1963, and his wife, Myrlie Evers, who became a civil rights activist after his death. You have a whole chapter called \"The Rules For A Civil Rights Widow.\" What were the, quote, \"rules\" she had to learn or play by or create 'cause she was, like, the first famous civil rights widow?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. They were told they could only do a quiet, mournful march, and they were not to sing freedom songs at all. But these young people started singing \"This Little Light Of Mine.\" And it was Me"}
{"id": "1229763724", "date": "2024-02-07", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "MSNBC host Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 27, "text": "She both became famous, you know, very quickly because of the assassination and also very depressed. It's a difficult combination to deal with, depression and fame at the same time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So Myrlie Evers, you know, had to write this playbook for herself because Medgar Evers was assassinated two years before Malcolm X and five years before Dr. King. So there really wasn't another"}
{"id": "1229763724", "date": "2024-02-07", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "MSNBC host Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 28, "text": "And she's in - of course, in mourning.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "1229763724", "date": "2024-02-07", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "MSNBC host Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 29, "text": "But she does kind of overcome the depression. She becomes an activist. She becomes an in-demand public speaker. Eventually, she becomes the board chair of the NAACP. And she gets a lot of accolades. She's, like, Woman of the Year in Ms. Magazine in 1998, one of the hundred most fascinating Black women of the 20th century in Ebony in 1998. What came first for you - wanting to write a book about the Evers or meeting Myrlie Evers and deciding, oh, I should write a book?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. And, you know, living in that house made it worse - right? - because, you know, that house had been designed for security. It was - it's the only house on this block that used to be called"}
{"id": "1229763724", "date": "2024-02-07", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "MSNBC host Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 30, "text": "You know, it's sad to say - and you talk about this a lot on your show on MSNBC - people are facing a lot of death threats today...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Meeting Myrlie Evers, Myrlie Evers-Williams now. She did fall in love again, but Medgar Evers was clearly the love of her life. And that's what she told me that actually was the impetus for this book."}
{"id": "1229763724", "date": "2024-02-07", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "MSNBC host Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 31, "text": "...Because of their political views, especially coming from the far right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "1229763724", "date": "2024-02-07", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "MSNBC host Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 32, "text": "Well, let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Joy Reid, host of the MSNBC show \"The ReidOut\" and author of the new book \"Medgar And Myrlie,\" about Medgar and Myrlie Evers. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. And, you know, I think about, you know, people who are managing to stand up regardless of that. Right? I don't agree with these people politically, but Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger - both"}
{"id": "1229763724", "date": "2024-02-07", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "MSNBC host Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 33, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Joy Reid, host of the MSNBC show \"The ReidOut.\" Her new book, \"Medgar And Myrlie,\" is about Medgar Evers, the civil rights leader from Mississippi who was assassinated in 1963, and his wife, Myrlie Evers, who eventually became the board chair of the organization he worked for, the NAACP. I want to talk more about your background, 'cause I see you all the time and I don't really know that much about you. I do know that your father was from the Democratic Republic of Congo and came...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. And, you know, I think about, you know, people who are managing to stand up regardless of that. Right? I don't agree with these people politically, but Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger - both"}
{"id": "1229763724", "date": "2024-02-07", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "MSNBC host Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 34, "text": "...To the U.S. for college and that your mother is from Guyana. So with a father from Congo and a mother from Guyana, what were their attitudes toward racial politics in America, and how did that compare to your friends and their parents?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1229763724", "date": "2024-02-07", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "MSNBC host Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 35, "text": "Your mother, who I understand you were very close to, died when you were 17. I think it was breast cancer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's very interesting. We were some of the - there was only a small number of foreign blacks in the town where I grew up. I grew up - I was born in Brooklyn, N.Y., but when I was 2 years old, my mom, "}
{"id": "1229763724", "date": "2024-02-07", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "MSNBC host Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 36, "text": "And you and your siblings were sent to your aunt, who parented you after that. And one of the changes in your life was that you had to go to church four days a week, which is something apparently you weren't used to. How did that change your life in one way or another?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1229763724", "date": "2024-02-07", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "MSNBC host Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 37, "text": "So what dilemma did that pose for you? Your aunt is generous enough to take you and your siblings in to her home, and at the same time, you're really uncomfortable with her way of doing religion. So, like, you want to not go to church four days a week, and you disagree with some of the principles that you're being taught, but you probably don't want to insult your aunt either, and she was so deeply faithful in that religion. So how did you balance wanting to assert, like, your independence and your own point of view while respecting your aunt?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's interesting. I mean, I grew up very religious. My mother was a - you know, she was a good Methodist. I mean, she had changed us from Catholic to Methodist because the ceilings were lower. S"}
{"id": "1229763724", "date": "2024-02-07", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "MSNBC host Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 38, "text": "Yes, right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And also, I mean, I was in mourning, too, so I loved..."}
{"id": "1229763724", "date": "2024-02-07", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "MSNBC host Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 39, "text": "Of course.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Being with her."}
{"id": "1229763724", "date": "2024-02-07", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "MSNBC host Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 40, "text": "You were an obedient child. How did you learn to become disobedient?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it was difficult. I mean, the thing is, I was an obedient child. I went, and I did the four nights a week, and then when I felt like it wasn't necessarily for me and I'd been there for, you know, p"}
{"id": "1229763724", "date": "2024-02-07", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "MSNBC host Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 41, "text": "That's right. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", but when..."}
{"id": "1229763724", "date": "2024-02-07", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "MSNBC host Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 42, "text": "Joy Reid, it's been great to talk with you. Congratulations on your new book, and thank you so much for coming to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1229763724", "date": "2024-02-07", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "MSNBC host Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 43, "text": "Joy Reid is the host of the MSNBC show \"The ReidOut.\" Her new book is called \"Medgar And Myrlie: Medgar Evers And The Love Story That Awakened America.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll talk about a subject you probably don't think about - the freight rail system - until dangerous accidents, like the derailment in East Palestine that released noxious smoke into a community. Our guest will be Topher Sanders, who investigated the extensive safety risks and cover-ups within the freight rail system in a series of articles in ProPublica. I hope you'll join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram, @nprfreshair. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having me."}
{"id": "1230071788", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Wayne Kramer", "title": "Remembering guitarist Wayne Kramer, founder of the MC5", "question_index": 0, "text": "Let's go back to the beginning, more or less, of your story. You grew up in Detroit. Did your father work in the auto industry?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's the Detroit-based band the MC5, one of the most radical of all the rock bands from the late '60s. The band's founder, singer and one of its guitarists, Wayne Kramer, died last week at the age o"}
{"id": "1230071788", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Wayne Kramer", "title": "Remembering guitarist Wayne Kramer, founder of the MC5", "question_index": 1, "text": "Did you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, well, in a satellite sense. You know, he was an electrician and later was in the building trades."}
{"id": "1230071788", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Wayne Kramer", "title": "Remembering guitarist Wayne Kramer, founder of the MC5", "question_index": 2, "text": "Did you figure that when you grew up, your job would somehow be connected to the auto industry? MC5: Well, that was my fear, you know? That's the birthright if you're born in the industrial Midwest, you know, that you're going to end up a shop rat.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then I had a stepfather later on who also worked in the - he actually worked in an oil refinery there in Detroit."}
{"id": "1230071788", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Wayne Kramer", "title": "Remembering guitarist Wayne Kramer, founder of the MC5", "question_index": 3, "text": "How was the MC5 first created? And let's place it. It was - what? - 1968, '67?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then I had a stepfather later on who also worked in the - he actually worked in an oil refinery there in Detroit."}
{"id": "1230071788", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Wayne Kramer", "title": "Remembering guitarist Wayne Kramer, founder of the MC5", "question_index": 4, "text": "Well, the MC5 became, you know, a self-styled revolutionary group. What politicized you? What got you thinking more about revolution than Chuck Berry?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's when we kind of broke out of regional popularity into the national consciousness. But we really started about '64, '65, in a neighborhood kind of way. You know, I looked around for guys i"}
{"id": "1230071788", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Wayne Kramer", "title": "Remembering guitarist Wayne Kramer, founder of the MC5", "question_index": 5, "text": "The band hooked up with John Sinclair, who was the head of the White Panther Party. What was the philosophy of the party?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Chuck Berry was revolutionary. But, you know, it was the day - we were very much a part of the time we lived in. And this was a time in the '60s. And I know it's hard for people to have a feel f"}
{"id": "1230071788", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Wayne Kramer", "title": "Remembering guitarist Wayne Kramer, founder of the MC5", "question_index": 6, "text": "Let me read part of the 10-point program of the White Panther Party. (Reading) We want justice. We want a free world economy. We want a clean planet. We want a free educational system. We want to free all structures from corporate rule. We want free access to all information, media and technology. We want the freedom of all people who are being held against their will in the conscripted armies of the oppressor throughout the world. We want the freedom of all political prisoners of war. We want a free planet. We want free land, free food, free shelter, free clothing, free music, free culture, free media, free technology, free education, free health care, free bodies, free people, free time and space, everything free.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Bobby Seale and Huey Newton put out the call for there to be a group in the white community and the hippie community to take up parallel work with the Black Panther Party. And we were ready. I m"}
{"id": "1230071788", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Wayne Kramer", "title": "Remembering guitarist Wayne Kramer, founder of the MC5", "question_index": 7, "text": "Bring back memories?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1230071788", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Wayne Kramer", "title": "Remembering guitarist Wayne Kramer, founder of the MC5", "question_index": 8, "text": "Did you charge for concerts, or were they always free?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1230071788", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Wayne Kramer", "title": "Remembering guitarist Wayne Kramer, founder of the MC5", "question_index": 9, "text": "So you got a record company contract.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2002 interview with MC5 founder Wayne Kramer, who was a singer and guitarist with the hard-driving, politically controversial '60s rock band. Kramer died l"}
{"id": "1230071788", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Wayne Kramer", "title": "Remembering guitarist Wayne Kramer, founder of the MC5", "question_index": 10, "text": "And then you went around recording things like \"Kick Out The Jams Mother******\" - expletive deleted, which couldn't very well be played on the radio. And I'm sure the record company wasn't really thrilled that the lyrics to your song had an expletive, like, the king of expletives on it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We did, indeed."}
{"id": "1230071788", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Wayne Kramer", "title": "Remembering guitarist Wayne Kramer, founder of the MC5", "question_index": 11, "text": "So what were you thinking...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We did, indeed."}
{"id": "1230071788", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Wayne Kramer", "title": "Remembering guitarist Wayne Kramer, founder of the MC5", "question_index": 12, "text": "What were you thinking when you got this good album contract, this good record deal, and then, you know, recorded a song on it that - couldn't possibly play it and that you had to know would be considered a real liability to the record company?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Or the queen of expletives."}
{"id": "1230071788", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Wayne Kramer", "title": "Remembering guitarist Wayne Kramer, founder of the MC5", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well, why don't we hear \"Kick Out the Jams\"? We'll hear the original version with the expletive in it. We will conveniently bleep the expletive, but still, you'll get the point of the recording. So here it is, the MC5.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". That was really, you know, the straw that broke the camel's back, you know, because nobody wanted anything to do with the MC5. We were way too much trouble, way too much bother."}
{"id": "1230071788", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Wayne Kramer", "title": "Remembering guitarist Wayne Kramer, founder of the MC5", "question_index": 14, "text": "MC5: Kick out the jams, mother******. Yeah, I'm going to, I'm going to kick them out, yeah. (Singing) Well, I feel pretty good, and I guess that I could get crazy now, baby, 'cause we all got in tune when the dressing room got hazy now, baby. I know how you want it, child, hot, quick and tight. The girls can't stand it when you're doing it right. Let me up on the stand and let me kick out the jams. Yes, kick out the jams. I have to kick them out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". That was really, you know, the straw that broke the camel's back, you know, because nobody wanted anything to do with the MC5. We were way too much trouble, way too much bother."}
{"id": "1230071788", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Wayne Kramer", "title": "Remembering guitarist Wayne Kramer, founder of the MC5", "question_index": 15, "text": "That's \"Kick Out The Jams,\" expletive deleted. And my guest is one of the founders of the MC5, Wayne Kramer. On one of the MC5 recordings, \"Ramblin' Rose,\" there's a live introduction by Jesse Crawford, who was the White Panther minister of information. Was this a kind of standard thing in concerts that one of the White Panthers would come up and give their rap before a performance?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". That was really, you know, the straw that broke the camel's back, you know, because nobody wanted anything to do with the MC5. We were way too much trouble, way too much bother."}
{"id": "1230071788", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Wayne Kramer", "title": "Remembering guitarist Wayne Kramer, founder of the MC5", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, we were all ministers of something or another. We..."}
{"id": "1230071788", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Wayne Kramer", "title": "Remembering guitarist Wayne Kramer, founder of the MC5", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, ministers of culture in the streets, ministers of defense, ministers of, you know, I mean - you know, I hope it comes across that this stuff was done with a lot of humor. You know, we really"}
{"id": "1230071788", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Wayne Kramer", "title": "Remembering guitarist Wayne Kramer, founder of the MC5", "question_index": 18, "text": "So instead of having the James Brown MC talking about his hits, you had J.C. Crawford saying, if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And - because we wanted to make this a show, we wanted to make - we wanted to entertain people and take them someplace they hadn't been before, because the world, as far as we could see, I mean, there"}
{"id": "1230071788", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Wayne Kramer", "title": "Remembering guitarist Wayne Kramer, founder of the MC5", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And - because we wanted to make this a show, we wanted to make - we wanted to entertain people and take them someplace they hadn't been before, because the world, as far as we could see, I mean, there"}
{"id": "1230071788", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Wayne Kramer", "title": "Remembering guitarist Wayne Kramer, founder of the MC5", "question_index": 20, "text": "Let's hear the introduction to \"Ramblin' Rose\" and hear some of \"Ramblin' Rose\" as well.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1230071788", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Wayne Kramer", "title": "Remembering guitarist Wayne Kramer, founder of the MC5", "question_index": 21, "text": "You're singing lead on this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Great."}
{"id": "1230071788", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Wayne Kramer", "title": "Remembering guitarist Wayne Kramer, founder of the MC5", "question_index": 22, "text": "That's the MC5's recording \"Ramblin' Rose,\" the lead vocal on that sung by my guest, Wayne Kramer. What kind of crowd reactions would you get? What were the best reactions? What were the most extreme reactions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Brothers and sisters, the time has come for each and every one of you to decide whether you are going to be the problem or whether you are going to be the solution. You must choose, brothers, you must"}
{"id": "1230071788", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Wayne Kramer", "title": "Remembering guitarist Wayne Kramer, founder of the MC5", "question_index": 23, "text": "Now, because of the, like, revolutionary language that you used with the band and your association with John Sinclair, I think you were you were watched pretty closely. And I'm wondering if you ever got your Freedom of Information Act files and if you could see for sure what the FBI was doing regarding your band.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". The hippies just didn't connect with the MC5. You know, we just had - we had too much macho energy. Our clothes were too shiny. Our amps were too big, and we did too much leaping, spinning, screamin"}
{"id": "1230071788", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Wayne Kramer", "title": "Remembering guitarist Wayne Kramer, founder of the MC5", "question_index": 24, "text": "And so what did you think of what he said? How seriously should he have taken you? How should he have interpreted what you were saying?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Today, I know a great deal about what the federal government's attitude about the MC5 was, and it's very scary. The white House viewed the MC5 as a threat. We have through the Freedom of Information d"}
{"id": "1230071788", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Wayne Kramer", "title": "Remembering guitarist Wayne Kramer, founder of the MC5", "question_index": 25, "text": "How did it affect the band when John Sinclair, who worked as your manager and mentor in a way - when he was arrested for caring two marijuana joints and sentenced to 10 years? What did that do to your band?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". If we could have changed the world, we would have, you know?"}
{"id": "1230071788", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Wayne Kramer", "title": "Remembering guitarist Wayne Kramer, founder of the MC5", "question_index": 26, "text": "You know, we've been talking about, like, the revolutionary slant of the music of the MC5, but some of it was just really fun, and I thought I'd play one of the tracks, and this is \"High School,\" and it sounds almost like a rough draft of - for the Ramones, for their \"Rock 'N' Roll High School.\" I mean, do you think they listened to your \"High School\" before doing their own \"Rock 'N' Roll High School\"?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University. Today we're remembering Wayne Kramer, who died last week at age 75. He was the founder of Detroit's infamou"}
{"id": "1230071788", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Wayne Kramer", "title": "Remembering guitarist Wayne Kramer, founder of the MC5", "question_index": 27, "text": "Oh, yeah?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know they did."}
{"id": "1230071788", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Wayne Kramer", "title": "Remembering guitarist Wayne Kramer, founder of the MC5", "question_index": 28, "text": "Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, yeah. They're friends of mine, you know?"}
{"id": "1230071788", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Wayne Kramer", "title": "Remembering guitarist Wayne Kramer, founder of the MC5", "question_index": 29, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They - I was friends with the Joey and Dee Dee, and I know Johnny a bit, you know? But, yeah. Listen. They - their manager was our publicist."}
{"id": "1230071788", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Wayne Kramer", "title": "Remembering guitarist Wayne Kramer, founder of the MC5", "question_index": 30, "text": "Right. And \"Back In The USA\" is the album that this track is from.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the connections are, you know - I mean, the connections are there. Jon Landau, who produced \"Back In The USA,\" went on to manage and produce Bruce Springsteen, you know? I can see how the - this is"}
{"id": "1230071788", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Wayne Kramer", "title": "Remembering guitarist Wayne Kramer, founder of the MC5", "question_index": 31, "text": "Let's hear it. This is the MC5, \"High School.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1230071788", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Wayne Kramer", "title": "Remembering guitarist Wayne Kramer, founder of the MC5", "question_index": 32, "text": "MC5: (Singing) Well, come on. The kids want a little action. The kids want a little fun. The kids all have to get their kicks before the evening's done 'cause they're goin' to high school, rah-rah-rah, high school, sis-boom-bah, High school. Hey, hey, hey. You better let them have their way. They only wanna shake it up, baby, dance to the rockin' bands. They only want a little excitement. They like to get a little outta hand 'cause they're goin' to high school, rah-rah-rah, high school, sis-boom-bah, high school. Hey, hey, hey. You better let them have their way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1230071788", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Wayne Kramer", "title": "Remembering guitarist Wayne Kramer, founder of the MC5", "question_index": 33, "text": "That's the MC5. And by the way, the MC5 recordings are featured on a recent anthology on Rhino Records called \"The Best Of The MC5.\" My guest, Wayne Kramer, is one of the founders of the group. It was very difficult for you when the MC5 broke up, and you went through a kind of long period of addiction to heroin, alcohol. You spent some time in prison in - I think it was the mid-'70s.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1230071788", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Wayne Kramer", "title": "Remembering guitarist Wayne Kramer, founder of the MC5", "question_index": 34, "text": "Oh, that's what they all say in prison.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's when I first started listening to All Things Considered."}
{"id": "1230071788", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Wayne Kramer", "title": "Remembering guitarist Wayne Kramer, founder of the MC5", "question_index": 35, "text": "Did they really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A lot of people in prison listen to All Things Considered. It's a great show."}
{"id": "1230071788", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Wayne Kramer", "title": "Remembering guitarist Wayne Kramer, founder of the MC5", "question_index": 36, "text": "That's really funny.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "1230071788", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Wayne Kramer", "title": "Remembering guitarist Wayne Kramer, founder of the MC5", "question_index": 37, "text": "Good.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1230071788", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Wayne Kramer", "title": "Remembering guitarist Wayne Kramer, founder of the MC5", "question_index": 38, "text": "So you were in prison for what? - selling drugs to an undercover agent?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1230071788", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Wayne Kramer", "title": "Remembering guitarist Wayne Kramer, founder of the MC5", "question_index": 39, "text": "What was their cover?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To a federal agent, yeah."}
{"id": "1230071788", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Wayne Kramer", "title": "Remembering guitarist Wayne Kramer, founder of the MC5", "question_index": 40, "text": "When you were in prison - in a federal prison in Lexington, Ky., you met Red Rodney, the trumpeter who early in his career played with Charlie Parker's band. And you used to play together in prison. What kind of music would you play?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That they were New York mafioso drug couriers. They - and they looked the part, and they talked the part, and they walked the part. And see; you know, when the band broke up, I really lost my connecti"}
{"id": "1230071788", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Wayne Kramer", "title": "Remembering guitarist Wayne Kramer, founder of the MC5", "question_index": 41, "text": "You talked about how you really admired, artists who were alcoholics or drug addicts. What did you find interesting or admirable about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, when - probably the high point of being locked up, for 2 1/2 years was the time I spent with Red Rodney. He was - you know, like - you know, I grew up admiring jazz musicians and, you know, drug"}
{"id": "1230071788", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Wayne Kramer", "title": "Remembering guitarist Wayne Kramer, founder of the MC5", "question_index": 42, "text": "What did?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it just seems so illicit and so romantic. But, you know, none of those things made me an alcoholic or a drug addict."}
{"id": "1230071788", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Wayne Kramer", "title": "Remembering guitarist Wayne Kramer, founder of the MC5", "question_index": 43, "text": "How hard is it for you now to stay straight?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It doesn't work that way. What makes me a drug addict and an alcoholic is I like the effect that those substances have on me when I put them in my body."}
{"id": "1230071788", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Wayne Kramer", "title": "Remembering guitarist Wayne Kramer, founder of the MC5", "question_index": 44, "text": "What do you mean? What do you mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, hard. You know, it's not that it's hard because I know today that I don't have a drug and an alcohol problem. I have a living problem. And..."}
{"id": "1230076983", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Carl Weathers", "title": "Remembering Carl Weathers, who played Apollo Creed in 'Rocky'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Now, you're a very muscular guy, but you're more of an athlete than, say - well, I don't know if you bodybuild or not, but your background is as an athlete as opposed to martial arts...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, I was talking to an Australian one day, and he was telling me about this incredible love affair that he was in. And he made mention of a phrase, action Jackson. And I said, hey; sounds like "}
{"id": "1230076983", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Carl Weathers", "title": "Remembering Carl Weathers, who played Apollo Creed in 'Rocky'", "question_index": 1, "text": "...For instance.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1230076983", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Carl Weathers", "title": "Remembering Carl Weathers, who played Apollo Creed in 'Rocky'", "question_index": 2, "text": "So in writing the stunts, were the stunts written for someone from your kind of athletic background?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1230076983", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Carl Weathers", "title": "Remembering Carl Weathers, who played Apollo Creed in 'Rocky'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Well, really, the very first stunt that you do is running.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. When I do movies and develop movies now, I certainly look, when I'm the star of the movie or I'm involved in the movie and a lot of the stunts, to build stunts that I can do very well and the - y"}
{"id": "1230076983", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Carl Weathers", "title": "Remembering Carl Weathers, who played Apollo Creed in 'Rocky'", "question_index": 4, "text": "There's a scene where you were kind of attacked by a taxicab.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1230076983", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Carl Weathers", "title": "Remembering Carl Weathers, who played Apollo Creed in 'Rocky'", "question_index": 5, "text": "And you say, I've got to go and catch a cab.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I like that. I love the way you put that."}
{"id": "1230076983", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Carl Weathers", "title": "Remembering Carl Weathers, who played Apollo Creed in 'Rocky'", "question_index": 6, "text": "And you start chasing the cab. And in the movie, you're running at the same speed that the cab is going.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1230076983", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Carl Weathers", "title": "Remembering Carl Weathers, who played Apollo Creed in 'Rocky'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Well, just the running, just seeing you run, I thought, well, that's the first stunt", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I ultimately chase it and catch it and then surpass it and jump on top of it. It's a Carl Weathers kind of day. You know what I mean - kind of stuff I do on a normal day in Los Angeles."}
{"id": "1230076983", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Carl Weathers", "title": "Remembering Carl Weathers, who played Apollo Creed in 'Rocky'", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I ultimately chase it and catch it and then surpass it and jump on top of it. It's a Carl Weathers kind of day. You know what I mean - kind of stuff I do on a normal day in Los Angeles."}
{"id": "1230076983", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Carl Weathers", "title": "Remembering Carl Weathers, who played Apollo Creed in 'Rocky'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Was that part of the goal - to get to see you run? I mean, were you a very good runner when you were a football player?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that was 12 hours that day of just running. It's the toughest day I've ever had in filmmaking."}
{"id": "1230076983", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Carl Weathers", "title": "Remembering Carl Weathers, who played Apollo Creed in 'Rocky'", "question_index": 10, "text": "OK, so we got the scene where you're running at the same speed that the taxicab is being driven - special effects there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It wasn't so much that. I think since I did some of the \"Rockys,\" though, and particularly the scene that we were running on the beach, a lot of the kind of male and particularly women - women love to"}
{"id": "1230076983", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Carl Weathers", "title": "Remembering Carl Weathers, who played Apollo Creed in 'Rocky'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Another real athletic moment for you - there's a huge, big guy...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it was real. That was all very real."}
{"id": "1230076983", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Carl Weathers", "title": "Remembering Carl Weathers, who played Apollo Creed in 'Rocky'", "question_index": 12, "text": "...Guarding...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1230076983", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Carl Weathers", "title": "Remembering Carl Weathers, who played Apollo Creed in 'Rocky'", "question_index": 13, "text": "He's huge and big. He's guarding the door. He's unbudgeable (ph).", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's huge and big. Yes, he is - all in one."}
{"id": "1230076983", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Carl Weathers", "title": "Remembering Carl Weathers, who played Apollo Creed in 'Rocky'", "question_index": 14, "text": "You punch him in the face. You punch him in the chest. All it does is hurt your knuckles.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1230076983", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Carl Weathers", "title": "Remembering Carl Weathers, who played Apollo Creed in 'Rocky'", "question_index": 15, "text": "And then you basically ram him as if you were doing a tackle...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1230076983", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Carl Weathers", "title": "Remembering Carl Weathers, who played Apollo Creed in 'Rocky'", "question_index": 16, "text": "...In a football move, and you ram him right through the doorway.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Through the doorway."}
{"id": "1230076983", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Carl Weathers", "title": "Remembering Carl Weathers, who played Apollo Creed in 'Rocky'", "question_index": 17, "text": "And that struck me as a real football kind of maneuver.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1230076983", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Carl Weathers", "title": "Remembering Carl Weathers, who played Apollo Creed in 'Rocky'", "question_index": 18, "text": "So is that - was that written for you? Like, let's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What do you want from me? That's where I come from, you know? It's kind of like..."}
{"id": "1230076983", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Carl Weathers", "title": "Remembering Carl Weathers, who played Apollo Creed in 'Rocky'", "question_index": 19, "text": "...Give him a real football kind of thing to do.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it was."}
{"id": "1230076983", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Carl Weathers", "title": "Remembering Carl Weathers, who played Apollo Creed in 'Rocky'", "question_index": 20, "text": "Let me do one of your lines. Your police captain calls you in and says, Jackson, you tore that kid's arm off, and you say...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Jericho Jackson) Ah, good."}
{"id": "1230076983", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Carl Weathers", "title": "Remembering Carl Weathers, who played Apollo Creed in 'Rocky'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So? He had a spare."}
{"id": "1230076983", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Carl Weathers", "title": "Remembering Carl Weathers, who played Apollo Creed in 'Rocky'", "question_index": 22, "text": "I love that line.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I loved it."}
{"id": "1230076983", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Carl Weathers", "title": "Remembering Carl Weathers, who played Apollo Creed in 'Rocky'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Now, you got started as an athlete, football player. Were you interested in acting when you were playing football?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. A lot of people have liked that line. That's one of the - for me, that's one of the best lines in the whole movie, you know? And Bill Duke, the guy who plays my captain, is - he was in \"Predator"}
{"id": "1230076983", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Carl Weathers", "title": "Remembering Carl Weathers, who played Apollo Creed in 'Rocky'", "question_index": 24, "text": "I think people first really noticed you in your role as Apollo Creed in \"Rocky.\" And how were you cast on that? Did you know much about boxing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in actuality, it really - I got started as an actor when I was in fifth or sixth grade. It's the first play that I ever did. And I went through years of junior high school and high school, and f"}
{"id": "1230076983", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Carl Weathers", "title": "Remembering Carl Weathers, who played Apollo Creed in 'Rocky'", "question_index": 25, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I knew nothing about boxing. I had never boxed. I had never had gloves on. I'd never been in the ring. I'd never been to a boxing match. And I knew about the script. I mean, there was this wonderful s"}
{"id": "1230076983", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Carl Weathers", "title": "Remembering Carl Weathers, who played Apollo Creed in 'Rocky'", "question_index": 26, "text": "You get a knockout punch in \"Rocky IV\" that kills the character.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I didn't know that the writer and the star of the movie were one and the same. They didn't say this is Sylvester Stallone. He's going to star in the movie. Right, you laugh. That's the way I fel"}
{"id": "1230076983", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Carl Weathers", "title": "Remembering Carl Weathers, who played Apollo Creed in 'Rocky'", "question_index": 27, "text": "Apollo Creed is dead in the ring. Did you want to be written out of the series?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, kills him off. He's long gone."}
{"id": "1230076983", "date": "2024-02-09", "guest": "Carl Weathers", "title": "Remembering Carl Weathers, who played Apollo Creed in 'Rocky'", "question_index": 28, "text": "Carl Weathers, thanks a lot for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Are you kidding? No. I mean, not in a million years would I have wanted to be written out. But once it was done, you know, as much as I resisted in the beginning, I realized that there was a great"}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 0, "text": "So, but, now, early on, when Red Barber would go off track and talk about the camellias or what the weather was like in Tallahassee, would you nervously try to bring him back into focus about sports, the subject of the commentary?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I panicked early on because Red would turn it around. Red would ask me questions. Red would throw me curveballs. I wasn't ready for any of that. I was ready for an interview. But Red got me back into "}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 1, "text": "How did he start calling you Colonel?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sometimes, but sometimes I'd just do it for fun because, you know, Red would go off about the flowers, and just for effect, I'd say, hey, how about those Dodgers? - Just to get the laugh, because I kn"}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 2, "text": "What is a Kentucky Colonel?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he called me a lot of things. He called me Robbit. R-O-B-B-I-T is how I spell that, Robbit. But he heard that I was a Kentucky Colonel, as most Kentuckians are, and probably you are, too, Terry."}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 3, "text": "Now, how'd you feel about it at first before it really stuck?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it's our little honorific in Kentucky. A member of the Colonels will write to the governor and ask that the governor commission a friend, an associate, and it's no big deal. They send off the comm"}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 4, "text": "In a way, having a nickname for that spot gave you a - in a way, the ability to have two different personalities - you know, one for the news and one for your chats with Red.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when Red Barber gives you a nickname, I think it's a compliment. And, you know, he gave a lot of the Dodgers their nicknames. So I didn't think it was a bad deal. And when you're a pretty straig"}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 5, "text": "That's right, your alter ego. When the Gulf War started, there was a debate at NPR about whether Red Barber should be preempted because of the solemnity of - you know, the gravity of the war. Was there really time in the broadcast to talk about what game was coming up that week? You argued that Red should be on. Why did you think he should be on? And tell us about that first broadcast that he did during the war.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. Suddenly, the Colonel would be there."}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 6, "text": "Was this the first time that you'd lost someone who you had that kind of close professional relationship with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't think that we should change anything just because there was a war on. You know, there's a place for Red Barber, and Red Barber served. He was not in uniform himself, but he was very, very pro"}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 7, "text": "With Red Barber, you wrote an obituary that you gave on the year. What did you do when you were trying to find a comfortable tone to take for the interview, so that it would have your sentiment without being heavy on the sentimentality?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Professionally, I guess, yes. I mean, certainly people I've interviewed over the years have died, but not - so I thought of Red as my surrogate father. You know, Donald Hall, the poet and essayist, sa"}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 8, "text": "What was the last line that you knew?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I knew what the last line was, and I started with the last line. And I knew how much time I had. So - I also knew I had to catch a plane pretty soon. So I just put paper in the typewriter and fi"}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 9, "text": "I'm interested in talking with you a little bit about your work at NPR. You were the first on-air host of Morning Edition, but you weren't supposed to be the first host of the show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Colonel says goodbye."}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 10, "text": "Oh, a former - better known to most people as the Pentagon spokesperson during the war...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. The program had been a year in the planning, and I'll tell you who the hosts were because they've done right well for themselves - Pete Williams, now of NBC News..."}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 11, "text": "...During the Gulf War.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 12, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And Mary Tillotson of CNN. And they were the hosts. The program - they didn't get around to doing a pilot for the stations to hear until very close to the date that they were due to go on. Maybe it wa"}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 13, "text": "So now, how did the job fall to you after everybody else was fired?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They're making serious bucks today."}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, you write in your new book that initially you and Susan Stamberg resented the development of Morning Edition because you knew that show would be competing with your show, All Things Considered, for limited resources at NPR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Fool that I was. And 30 days has turned into 14 years."}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, of course. We were top dog, you know? We didn't want any competition in house. And so when the pilot bombed, we just kind of smiled."}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 16, "text": "...Was there a friction between your new show, Morning Edition, and your old show, All Things Considered, when Morning Edition actually went on the air?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Didn't reflect on us."}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 17, "text": "When you were on All Things Considered, co-anchor with Susan Stamberg, you were sometimes, in a way, in the role of the straight man.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, of course there was. The - we didn't have that many reporters in those days. And this new program was supposed to get along without reporters, without the staff that we had reporting for All Thi"}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 18, "text": "Well, how does your - how did your on-air personality change, do you think, when you were on your own?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It was good training for Red."}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 19, "text": "What are your hours?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It changed a lot. I worked very well with Susan, and we had it down. We knew each other's strengths and each other's faults, and we could cover the faults and play to the strengths. But with Susan, sh"}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 20, "text": "That's a long day.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I get up at 1:30 in the morning, and I'm in the office by 2:30, and I go home at noon or 12:30."}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 21, "text": "It's actually a long night and a short day.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes it is. Yes it is."}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 22, "text": "What hours do you have for family time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I go to sleep at 7, and my children tuck me in, and it's tough. They get to stay up, and I have to go to bed. And that's the part I don't like."}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 23, "text": "You change your hours on the weekend?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I get the afternoons, of course, which is real nice in the summer, when the children are there. I think in some ways, though, I might get more time with my children than a 9-to-5 dad because they come"}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 24, "text": "Don't you have jetlag all the time, then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I'm a normal person on the weekend."}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 25, "text": "You've said that one of the drawbacks of getting up in the middle of the night is that you're driving through the streets just as the bars are closing, and you've had some pretty close calls.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Exactly right. That's exactly what it feels like. It's permanent jetlag."}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 26, "text": "On the way to work?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I've had some that were too close. I got hit one night by a drunk driver that..."}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 27, "text": "Whoa.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Ran a red light. Yeah. And she was a 19-year-old, and she had a fight with her boyfriend or something - I don't know - she was drunk - and just was blasted me right in the passenger side. And a bra"}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 28, "text": "Now, were you hurt?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, totaled it."}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 29, "text": "Did you go to work afterwards?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No, it's a tank, and I always wear a seatbelt. So..."}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 30, "text": "What was your very first radio job? Or I shouldn't use the word job, maybe. Maybe you didn't get paid at the very beginning, like most people in public radio didn't get paid when they started.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If you're just joining us, we're listening to Terry's 1993 interview with Bob Edwards, the longtime host of NPR's Morning Edition. He died on Saturday from heart failure and complications of bladder c"}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 31, "text": "What, paternity support?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I hung out at a tiny little station in New Albany, Ind., a commercial station that was right across the river from Louisville. But I don't think the signal reached there unless a breeze was blowing ri"}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 32, "text": "Well, this is a variation on the would-be leading lady where the real leading lady gets a broken leg. Yeah. All right, so what was the first show?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 33, "text": "What kind of music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was spinning records, and it was doing the DJ..."}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 34, "text": "Easy listening?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Easy listening."}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 35, "text": "Oh, no. Did you like that music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The world's most beautiful music."}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 36, "text": "What was the worst stuff you had to play?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I jazzed it up a bit. I threw in some Ellington and Basie. They were - you know, Sinatra was about as hip as they got. But I put in a little more up-tempo stuff."}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 37, "text": "And what voice did you use to back-announce Mantovani?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, Mantovani, I guess - very syrupy stuff, you know, the pealing violins and very lush arrangements and all that."}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 38, "text": "Now, you were drafted in 1969, and you ended up anchoring Army broadcasts of the 6 o'clock news in Seoul.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I was ordered to use this very, very, what? I was pontificating, (imitating formal accent) I was very formal - very, very, very formal. But that was orders. That went with the music. So that's wha"}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 39, "text": "How did you get the job? Was this the first time you were on the air or was this after your middle-of-the-road stint?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 40, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was terrified of the Army because of the war, and I didn't want any part of it. So what I did was - it's the one time that you should not be shy, when you're drafted. I told them I was Cronkite."}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 41, "text": "How objective was the Army broadcasts of the news?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I told them, if they didn't have me in broadcasting, boy, were they missing out. I mean, gosh, what a waste of my talent. What I was trying to do is, you know, keep from fighting in Nam, and it worked"}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 42, "text": "Did you wear a uniform for the broadcast?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They kept their hands off of us because they didn't want to be seen as being heavy-handed. They censored us only where Korean news was - you know, when I was doing something about Korea, they would ce"}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 43, "text": "Now, how did you get to National Public Radio?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. Oh, yes, wore my green suit, and I was Army specialist Bob Edwards."}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 44, "text": "For...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was fired from the Mutual Broadcasting System."}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 45, "text": "Were you an organizer or a foreman?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Union activity."}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 46, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Was and still am. I'm national vice president of AFTRA..."}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 47, "text": "Doing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...The American Federation of Television and Radio Artists. And the fellow that was running Mutual was getting rid of everybody, was a big union man. I say man, they weren't women then. And so when I "}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 48, "text": "So you started off as a newscaster.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The 8 o'clock news insert within All Things Considered."}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 49, "text": "And how long did it take till you were co-anchor?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Uh-huh."}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 50, "text": "It's very impressive the way you can hit the time clock and get out of an interview just in the nick of time. What are the polite ways of telling somebody that their time is up and you got to get out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, about six months. And that was February '74 when I started doing the newscast and August when I started hosting."}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 51, "text": "Yeah, when you're live.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, you mean when we're live..."}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 52, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And they're running long..."}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 53, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And you thought you were going to get the 30-second answer and you get the minute-and-a-half answer?"}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 54, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I remember once when I asked one of those answers - one of those questions and then the person had been giving me nice, neat, little 30-second answers. And then - and when I took a chance and th"}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 55, "text": "Well, Bob Edwards, it's been a pleasure. Thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I said, and we'd like to hear each and every one of them, unfortunately - but I think that's the one time I got out of it with any grace, at all. Usually it's, Senator, Senator, we really have - S"}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 56, "text": "That's Bob Edwards reading from his new book, \"Edward R. Murrow And The Birth Of Broadcast Journalism.\" Bob, welcome back to FRESH AIR. You were asked to write a book for this series of biographies. Why did you choose Edward Murrow as your subject? Were you aware of him in his own time as a broadcaster, or was it only after that that you started to be aware of him and admire him so much?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) Murrow's obituaries mentioned that he seemed a courtly prince who nevertheless championed the underdog, a sophisticated man with a common touch. Variety said he had brought television to mat"}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 57, "text": "Now, Ed Murrow didn't set out to be a broadcaster. He was sent to Europe to arrange broadcasts by others for the Institute of International Education, which was part of the Carnegie Endowment. And even in his early days with CBS, he was supposed to arrange for newspaper reporters to actually do the reporting. Was it Murrow's idea to put himself on the air?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no. I listened to him on the radio and saw him on television when I was a kid. And maybe I didn't understand all of the nuances of his insights into the Eisenhower administration, but on one level"}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 58, "text": "One of Murrow's now-famous broadcasts was part of a special program called London After Dark, that CBS radio broadcast on August 24, 1940. He was reporting from Trafalgar Square. What's the importance, do you think, of this particular broadcast?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I think it just kind of happened, and New York didn't complain, and it was so successful, that first broadcast in the spring of - was it March of 1938, when the Nazis marched into Austria and anne"}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 59, "text": "Well, why don't we hear some of that report by Edward R. Murrow, August 24, 1940, from Trafalgar Square?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A couple of things. When Hitler started bombing England, he first chose military targets, bases and the docks and that sort of thing, and then he upgraded it and just scatter-bombed all over all the c"}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 60, "text": "That was Edward R. Murrow recorded in 1940. My guest is Bob Edwards, who's written a new biography of Edward R. Murrow. Bob, you mentioned in your book that Murrow reported on the bomb shelters, but he didn't usually go to the bomb shelters himself. Why not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is Trafalgar Square. The noise that you hear at the moment is the sound of the air raid sirens. I'm standing here just on the steps of St. Martin-in-the-Fields. A searchlight just burst into acti"}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 61, "text": "Yeah, I - the - reporting from the rooftop, that really amazes me. You know, German bombers are flying overhead, and he's on a rooftop in London reporting on what he sees. That really takes courage. It must have been difficult to get permission to do that 'cause he needed the permission of the British to do it. What was it like for him to get permission, and what kind of guidelines did they lay down for him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was afraid that he would get used to it, that whenever the bombs fell, he would go running for the shelter if he went that first time. So he would go and do stories of people in the shelters, but h"}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 62, "text": "Bob, what was the impact of these broadcasts on Americans? And this is, you know, before America entered the war?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And he's thinking, you know, is this good or bad? - because they can't hear the bombs. They could hear the anti-aircraft fire, and you hear a lot of that. So you do get some war sounds, and you hear"}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 63, "text": "After World War II, Murrow becomes vice president and director of public affairs at CBS. He assembles a news team. Most of them go on to become some of the most famous people in broadcasting journalism. He moves from radio to television, helps define what television news is. And then, of course, he's covering things during the McCarthy era. And one of the things he's asked to do at CBS is to sign a loyalty oath. And I think a lot of his colleagues were expecting him to refuse, but he didn't refuse. Why didn't he refuse?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, we're remembering Bob Edwards, the longtime host of NPR's Morning Edition who died on Saturday. Let's get back to the interview Terry recorded with Ed"}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 64, "text": "What did he say that was so devastating?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think he picked his battles, and he thought that one was too big, and he could fight McCarthyism and the whole anti-communist hysteria in other ways, which he certainly did with his broadcast on \"Se"}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 65, "text": "Oh, gee, what's the moral of that story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, (reading) no one familiar with the history of this country can deny that congressional committees are useful. It is necessary to investigate before legislating, but the line between investigation "}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 66, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The moral is that story. The moral of the story is be a little more practical..."}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 67, "text": "Well, that's great. So what did CBS have to say about this? As you pointed out, this is editorializing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And a little less hero worshipping."}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 68, "text": "Now you have the kind of voice that people describe as a great radio voice, and I'm wondering if your voice influenced your decision to go into radio, or whether that was just a kind of happy coincidence that you had such a great voice and you were interested in radio?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. For one thing, they didn't promote the program. Murrow and his co-producer and partner, Fred W. Friendly, bought the - they used their personal money to buy a full-page ad in The New York Times "}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 69, "text": "Did you have a deep voice as a kid? Like, before...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it helped. When I was a kid in school, they always called on me to read aloud. And..."}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 70, "text": "...Your voice changed, what did it...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 71, "text": "...Sound like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 72, "text": "So your voice did influence going into radio?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was always getting calls, people calling for my dad and thinking that I was him. And, no, no, you want my dad. Let me get him. In church, I was asked to read aloud. So I think that helped. That gave"}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 73, "text": "Yeah. Sure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think so. Yeah. I mean, as a little kid, I always was intrigued by radio and loved radio and wanted to be in radio. And then Murrow, you know, I wanted to be cool, like Murrow. And then reading alou"}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 74, "text": "Sure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...The Soviet Union."}
{"id": "1231341806", "date": "2024-02-14", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering Bob Edwards, Peabody Award-winning broadcast journalist", "question_index": 75, "text": "Well, Bob, thank you. It's really been a pleasure to talk with you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wanted to be part of the discussion, but not a participant, not a partisan. And news was the way that I could do that."}
{"id": "1231759501", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 0, "text": "Sterling K. Brown, welcome to FRESH AIR. So happy to have you on the show.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli. The Academy Awards are less than a month away. Today, we continue our series of interviews with or about Oscar nominees. Sterling K. Brown has been nominated fo"}
{"id": "1231759501", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 1, "text": "Did you experience any of the same type of preconceptions about what it means to be authentically Black in your personal life or in your acting career?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, thank you so much for having me. I'm delighted to be here."}
{"id": "1231759501", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 2, "text": "When you were an economics major and then you interned at the Federal Reserve, did you want to be in business or economics?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. I found it definitely when I got to Hollywood in the early 2000s, that the idea of being intelligent was something that I needed to shed. Many casting directors'd be like, he's got this sm"}
{"id": "1231759501", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 3, "text": "OK. So you found the passion in acting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I think at that point in time in my life, Terry, the most important thing was being able to pour back into my community in a way that was substantial. And the only way that - the primary way that"}
{"id": "1231759501", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 4, "text": "But this reminds me of a line that you say in \"American Fiction.\" So, you know, your brother, the main character in the story...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1231759501", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 5, "text": "...Who's the novelist who can't get published - you say to him, like, you know me and your sister, like, we're doctors. We save people. Like, what can you do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1231759501", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 6, "text": "Revive a sentence? And so that reminds me...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1231759501", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 7, "text": "...Like, did you worry, like, OK, so I'm not going to give back to my community through learning about economics and money. What will being an actor give back to my community? Like, what meaning...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1231759501", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 8, "text": "...Does that have in the larger world?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Great question."}
{"id": "1231759501", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 9, "text": "I want to talk with you about the role that you got your first Emmy for. And that's the role of Christopher Darden in \"The People V. O.J. Simpson,\" which was the first season of \"American Crime Story.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Great question. And it's something that I thought about for a while. And so, when I told my mom that I was going to change my major, I knew that she would probably have some questions for me in terms "}
{"id": "1231759501", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 10, "text": "You won an Emmy in 2016. You were - you know, Darden was one of the prosecutors, one of the two prosecutors. And he was portrayed by O.J. Simpson defenders, by people who thought O.J. was innocent, as having the job so that the prosecution could present a Black face.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1231759501", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 11, "text": "But Darden really, I think, deeply believed in O.J.'s guilt. So I want to play a clip from the closing argument that you make in \"The People V. O.J. Simpson.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct."}
{"id": "1231759501", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 12, "text": "So here we go.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "1231759501", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 13, "text": "Now I'm going to skip ahead to the end of your closing argument.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Christopher Darden) Ladies and gentlemen, to grasp this crime, you must first understand Mr. Simpson's relationship to his ex-wife, Nicole. It was a ticking time bomb. The fuse was lit in 1985, th"}
{"id": "1231759501", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 14, "text": "When I saw the series, I thought, oh, you look so much like Christopher Darden.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Christopher Darden) He's a murderer. And he was also one hell of a great football player. But he's still a murderer."}
{"id": "1231759501", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 15, "text": "And it was just - you're so good in it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1231759501", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 16, "text": "You were in college at Stanford during the trial. What did you think of O.J. at the time? Did you think he was guilty or innocent?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "1231759501", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 17, "text": "She was the main prosecutor and your partner in the trial.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm going to be honest and say, like, it was a second consideration. It wasn't the first thing on my mind. I think that was sort of what a lot of us were experiencing - was that we wanted the criminal"}
{"id": "1231759501", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 18, "text": "So what changed your mind? Was it stepping into Christopher Darden's role, you know, becoming him for the series, or was it examining the facts more closely?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct."}
{"id": "1231759501", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 19, "text": "So let's talk a little bit about \"This Is Us.\" And this is a series - this was a series, an incredibly popular series, about three siblings. And the white mother was pregnant with triplets.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview with Sterling K. Brown, recorded in January. The Oscars are next month, and Brown is nominated for a best supporting actor Academy Award for his "}
{"id": "1231759501", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 20, "text": "But only two children survive. So the father, who's also white, decides - like, he'd planned on taking home three babies, and that is what he's going to do.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1231759501", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 21, "text": "So he adopts a baby born the same day who is left at the door of a firehouse. Now, that baby is Black. So you're the adult version of that Black baby who grew up in the white family. So you're set apart from the family in two ways. You're the only Black person in the family. And you're only - you're the only sibling who's not a twin.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, ma'am."}
{"id": "1231759501", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 22, "text": "In part of the series set in the present, you're married to a Black woman. You have two children and later adopt a third. So I want to play a scene from the first episode. You've been searching for your biological father, and you finally found where he lives. So you go - you drive over there. You bang on his door. And as soon as you - as soon as your biological father opens the door, you make a little speech. So let's start with the banging on the door.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1231759501", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 23, "text": "I love how that ends.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Randall Pearson) OK."}
{"id": "1231759501", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 24, "text": "So the father is played by Ron Cephas Jones, who died a few months ago. But I love how you casually - how he casually invites you in after this long, negative harangue about him. And you just say, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1231759501", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 25, "text": "Talk about deciding how to play that and whether you talked about how to play those final notes, whether you talked about it with Ron Cephas Jones.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a good term."}
{"id": "1231759501", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 26, "text": "So Ron Cephas Jones, who was in that scene with you, your biological father in the series - he died a few months ago. And Andre Braugher, who you also work with - and he died at the end of 2023. And then you also worked on \"Black Panther,\" and you knew Chadwick Boseman, who died of cancer at a young age...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So in that scene, I remember thinking that - what I understood from reading the pilot of the show and what was very sort of surprising in terms of how it landed on people, ultimately, was that it made"}
{"id": "1231759501", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 27, "text": "...Shocking everybody 'cause he didn't make it public. I'm wondering if that made you think about your own mortality.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1231759501", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 28, "text": "You know, one of the focal points of \"This Is Us\" is the loss of the father. So much of the story is flashing back to the impact of the father and the father's death on the three siblings' lives.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. First of all, yes. And I would say even predating all of those beautiful souls transpiring was my own father, who passed away at the age of 45. And so I've thought about it since then, when I was"}
{"id": "1231759501", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 29, "text": "So I want to mention another parallel between your life and your character Randall's life in \"This Is Us.\" Randall decides since he was adopted, he's going to kind of pay it back and adopt a girl. And the person who he adopts is in her teens, and her mother is addicted to drugs, and that's why she needs a home. And, you know, your mother adopted two children when you were in college. Were they teenagers, too? And why did your mother decide to adopt two children at that stage in her life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1231759501", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 30, "text": "Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Good question. They were not teenagers. They were babies."}
{"id": "1231759501", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 31, "text": "That's quite a story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so my Aunt Vera, who I adore - she's always - my mom's little sister was the collector of things in her family's life - like, pets and stuff - and would be like, she got a new cat. She got a new d"}
{"id": "1231759501", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 32, "text": "There's so much that you must have related to in \"This Is Us.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I have quite a mom. I have to say that, too. She's an extraordinary human being."}
{"id": "1231759501", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 33, "text": "Thank you so much for coming to our show. It's really been great to talk with you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "1231759501", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 34, "text": "Me too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, the pleasure has been all mine. Thank you for having me, and I look forward to doing it again."}
{"id": "1231761162", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Colman Domingo", "title": "'Rustin' star Colman Domingo says the civil rights activist has been a 'North Star'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Colman Domingo, welcome to FRESH AIR. You're terrific in this movie, and I would be shocked if you were not nominated for an Oscar.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Bayard Rustin) Then they're going to have to fire me because I will not resign. On the day that I was born Black, I was also born a homosexual. They either believe in freedom and justice for all, "}
{"id": "1231761162", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Colman Domingo", "title": "'Rustin' star Colman Domingo says the civil rights activist has been a 'North Star'", "question_index": 1, "text": "You know, I knew so little about Bayard Rustin. I grew up with his name. I heard his name. But he was, like, a guy in the civil rights movement. That's about all I knew about him. What did you know before you were asked to do the movie?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, Terry, thank you so much for having me. That means the world. Thank you."}
{"id": "1231761162", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Colman Domingo", "title": "'Rustin' star Colman Domingo says the civil rights activist has been a 'North Star'", "question_index": 2, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I knew a little bit more than most people, and I think any of the listeners out there will question why they didn't know about him. He was all but erased in the history books. I stumbled upon him - I "}
{"id": "1231761162", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Colman Domingo", "title": "'Rustin' star Colman Domingo says the civil rights activist has been a 'North Star'", "question_index": 3, "text": "And did you know at that point that you were gay?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "How come we don't know about this person? This is a person of such size and someone who seems to be full in their experience in the world. How is it possible that he's been erased from history? But, o"}
{"id": "1231761162", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Colman Domingo", "title": "'Rustin' star Colman Domingo says the civil rights activist has been a 'North Star'", "question_index": 4, "text": "So who did you talk to? There're still some contemporaries of Bayard Rustin's who are alive, who worked with him on the March on Washington. Were you able to talk with any of them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Did I know at that point that I was gay? I knew. I think I always knew. I grew up in inner city West Philadelphia. And, you know, you - I think people know. You know. But then I was coming to terms wi"}
{"id": "1231761162", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Colman Domingo", "title": "'Rustin' star Colman Domingo says the civil rights activist has been a 'North Star'", "question_index": 5, "text": "They were a couple for about 10 years, from 1977 until..", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely. I was able to talk to in particular, Rachelle Horowitz, who's featured in the film, played by Lilli Kay. Rachelle Horowitz and I - we actually have a text feed. We - she texts me prett"}
{"id": "1231761162", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Colman Domingo", "title": "'Rustin' star Colman Domingo says the civil rights activist has been a 'North Star'", "question_index": 6, "text": "...Bayard Rustin's death. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, until Bayard's passing."}
{"id": "1231761162", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Colman Domingo", "title": "'Rustin' star Colman Domingo says the civil rights activist has been a 'North Star'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Now, the woman who you mentioned, Rochelle - what was her role in the march?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And Walter Naegle and I had lunch. It was the first time I went over to Bayard's apartment, and it looked like time stood still. It was amazing. Walter Naegle has been the keeper of Bayard's leg"}
{"id": "1231761162", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Colman Domingo", "title": "'Rustin' star Colman Domingo says the civil rights activist has been a 'North Star'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Oh, her. OK, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Her role in the march - she organized transportation..."}
{"id": "1231761162", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Colman Domingo", "title": "'Rustin' star Colman Domingo says the civil rights activist has been a 'North Star'", "question_index": 9, "text": "What did you do to try to get his voice and his way of speaking? He had a very formal way of speaking, I think.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...For the March on Washington. And she was only - she was 19, 20 years old."}
{"id": "1231761162", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Colman Domingo", "title": "'Rustin' star Colman Domingo says the civil rights activist has been a 'North Star'", "question_index": 10, "text": "He created his accent, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1231761162", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Colman Domingo", "title": "'Rustin' star Colman Domingo says the civil rights activist has been a 'North Star'", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. He created his accent. He - as I was doing research and I was, you know, finding any materials that I can find of interviews, debates, you name it, I noticed he had sort of a somewhat Mid-At"}
{"id": "1231761162", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Colman Domingo", "title": "'Rustin' star Colman Domingo says the civil rights activist has been a 'North Star'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Yeah, they're close to each other. They're very close to each other, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm from Philadelphia. We don't sound like that."}
{"id": "1231761162", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Colman Domingo", "title": "'Rustin' star Colman Domingo says the civil rights activist has been a 'North Star'", "question_index": 13, "text": "Now, you mentioned he had a stutter. You had a lisp when you were young.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, pretty close to each other. So I was like, something's going on there. And I asked Rachelle Horowitz. I said, well, where'd that accent come from? And she said, well, he made it up. And I though"}
{"id": "1231761162", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Colman Domingo", "title": "'Rustin' star Colman Domingo says the civil rights activist has been a 'North Star'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Did you have a stutter, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did."}
{"id": "1231761162", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Colman Domingo", "title": "'Rustin' star Colman Domingo says the civil rights activist has been a 'North Star'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well, that's probably really good training for theater, but also really good training for learning how to speak differently, like, learning how to speak like Rustin, because you learned how to speak without your lisp.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I did. I had a lisp. I had speech classes up until I was about 11 or 12 years old where I would have to go into - with a speech therapist in school and dentalize my T's and S's and X's and just real"}
{"id": "1231761162", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Colman Domingo", "title": "'Rustin' star Colman Domingo says the civil rights activist has been a 'North Star'", "question_index": 16, "text": "Yeah. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And I also had - when I was portraying Rustin, I had to wear prosthetics for my upper teeth because he had..."}
{"id": "1231761162", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Colman Domingo", "title": "'Rustin' star Colman Domingo says the civil rights activist has been a 'North Star'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Oh. Yeah, I was wondering about those teeth. He got his teeth knocked out when...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And he's got a lot to say. So that was a great challenge. But I think it also gave me a slight lisp like he had, which was pretty awesome."}
{"id": "1231761162", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Colman Domingo", "title": "'Rustin' star Colman Domingo says the civil rights activist has been a 'North Star'", "question_index": 18, "text": "Yeah, when he refused to move to the back of the bus.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In 1942, yeah."}
{"id": "1231761162", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Colman Domingo", "title": "'Rustin' star Colman Domingo says the civil rights activist has been a 'North Star'", "question_index": 19, "text": "So I was wondering, like, how you - I was thinking you didn't have your teeth pulled, I was hoping you didn't", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, when he was one of the first people doing these bus protests, you know, before Rosa."}
{"id": "1231761162", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Colman Domingo", "title": "'Rustin' star Colman Domingo says the civil rights activist has been a 'North Star'", "question_index": 20, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, when he was one of the first people doing these bus protests, you know, before Rosa."}
{"id": "1231761162", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Colman Domingo", "title": "'Rustin' star Colman Domingo says the civil rights activist has been a 'North Star'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Yeah, I'm hoping.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, but people keep asking that. I'm like, I am not that method actor."}
{"id": "1231761162", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Colman Domingo", "title": "'Rustin' star Colman Domingo says the civil rights activist has been a 'North Star'", "question_index": 22, "text": "When you were doing, like, speech therapy to overcome your lisp and you learned how to, like, pronounce your T's clearly and your S's, and you learned to, like, really clearly enunciate...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm not that insane."}
{"id": "1231761162", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Colman Domingo", "title": "'Rustin' star Colman Domingo says the civil rights activist has been a 'North Star'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Were you considered phony when you started speaking that way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1231761162", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Colman Domingo", "title": "'Rustin' star Colman Domingo says the civil rights activist has been a 'North Star'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Can you share some of what your vocal warmup is like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I wasn't. I think - at least I don't think I was, because I would say things like - I would go (mimicking lisp) boxes, you know? And I would have to just, like, dentalize and keep that tongue behi"}
{"id": "1231761162", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Colman Domingo", "title": "'Rustin' star Colman Domingo says the civil rights activist has been a 'North Star'", "question_index": 25, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Let's see. I would start by going - I love to do things with T's and with language. I would say one fat hen, one fat hen, a couple of ducks, three brown bears. Four slippery sliders. Five freakish f"}
{"id": "1231761162", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Colman Domingo", "title": "'Rustin' star Colman Domingo says the civil rights activist has been a 'North Star'", "question_index": 26, "text": "That's great. Did you make those words up? Did you make those phrases up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1231761162", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Colman Domingo", "title": "'Rustin' star Colman Domingo says the civil rights activist has been a 'North Star'", "question_index": 27, "text": "So you are really at an incredible point in your career now. Like, it seemed like you were really at a turning point about 13, 15 years ago. I mean, you were in the off-Broadway, then Broadway musical \"Passing Strange,\" which was adapted - it was filmed by Spike Lee and shown on public television. You were in \"The Scottsboro Boys,\" a Kander and Ebb musical. And then you ended up bartending again and thinking that...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview from last December with Colman Domingo. He's nominated for a Best Actor Oscar for his performance in the title role of \"Rustin.\" The movie is str"}
{"id": "1231761162", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Colman Domingo", "title": "'Rustin' star Colman Domingo says the civil rights activist has been a 'North Star'", "question_index": 28, "text": "You had studied photojournalism, and you're thinking, well, maybe I'll just go into doing headshots for...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1231761162", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Colman Domingo", "title": "'Rustin' star Colman Domingo says the civil rights activist has been a 'North Star'", "question_index": 29, "text": "...People in movies and TV. And then you got a part on \"Fear The Walking Dead,\" and that turned things back around again. But here you are in, like, two of the biggest end-of-the-year movies. And you're in your - you're 54 now, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1231761162", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Colman Domingo", "title": "'Rustin' star Colman Domingo says the civil rights activist has been a 'North Star'", "question_index": 30, "text": "Yeah. So what's it like for you to be in this totally different professional space right now in your life after almost giving it up a few years ago?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1231761162", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Colman Domingo", "title": "'Rustin' star Colman Domingo says the civil rights activist has been a 'North Star'", "question_index": 31, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know what? I've been working now for - what? - 33 years. And I think I made a commitment early on that it was the life of an artist that - I always thought that I was successful if I just go"}
{"id": "1231761162", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Colman Domingo", "title": "'Rustin' star Colman Domingo says the civil rights activist has been a 'North Star'", "question_index": 32, "text": "You're kidding.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...At that time?"}
{"id": "1231761162", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Colman Domingo", "title": "'Rustin' star Colman Domingo says the civil rights activist has been a 'North Star'", "question_index": 33, "text": "Oh, wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I literally screamed in this gym. And I burst into a puddle of tears after screaming. And my agent was so upset. She's like, oh, my God, Colman, where are you? Where are you? Where are you? I said"}
{"id": "1231761162", "date": "2024-02-16", "guest": "Colman Domingo", "title": "'Rustin' star Colman Domingo says the civil rights activist has been a 'North Star'", "question_index": 34, "text": "I'm happy for you. And I want to congratulate you on the success you're having now, between the Emmy for \"Euphoria\" and your two new movies, \"Rustin\" and \"The Color Purple.\" Congratulations.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I didn't have access. But suddenly, I get series regular off of one self-tape audition. So it reinvigorated my faith in what I had to give. And \"Fear The Walking Dead\" really changed my life. "}
{"id": "1231762129", "date": "2024-02-19", "guest": "Michael Schulman", "title": "'Oscar Wars' spotlights bias, blind spots and backstage battles in the Academy", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. With the Oscars coming up next month, we're going to hear stories about earlier behind-the-scenes battles we don't see on the night Hollywood celebrates itself. In my guest Michael Schulman's book \"Oscar Wars: A History Of Hollywood In Gold, Sweat, And Tears,\" he says, quote, \"the Oscars have become a conflict zone for issues of race, gender and representation, high-profile signifiers of whose stories get told and whose don't. In previous decades, Oscar wars were waged over different issues, but they were no less fraught,\" unquote. The very existence of the Oscars and the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences, which administers them, were created in an attempt to resolve a conflict in young Hollywood back in the late 1920s. The conflicts Schulman writes about involve labor battles, World War II, anti-communist hysteria and blacklists, old Hollywood versus new Hollywood, the #MeToo movement, #OscarsSoWhite, the zillions of dollars spent on campaigning for Oscars and, of course, greed and ego. Schulman has written for The New Yorker since 2006. Among the people he's written about are Pedro Almodovar, Emma Thompson, Elisabeth Moss, Adam Driver and Jeremy Strong. He's also the author of a book about Meryl Streep. His book \"Oscar Wars\" comes out in paperback this week. We recorded our interview shortly before last year's Oscars when the book was first published.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1231762129", "date": "2024-02-19", "guest": "Michael Schulman", "title": "'Oscar Wars' spotlights bias, blind spots and backstage battles in the Academy", "question_index": 1, "text": "Michael Schulman, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1231762129", "date": "2024-02-19", "guest": "Michael Schulman", "title": "'Oscar Wars' spotlights bias, blind spots and backstage battles in the Academy", "question_index": 2, "text": "Yes. I learned a lot of interesting stuff from your book. So there's different chapters of history that I want to cover with you, but let's start with the #OscarsSoWhite movement. So let's talk about the Academy's reaction to #OscarsSoWhite. It kind of changed the voting rules a bit. What were the changes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "1231762129", "date": "2024-02-19", "guest": "Michael Schulman", "title": "'Oscar Wars' spotlights bias, blind spots and backstage battles in the Academy", "question_index": 3, "text": "Well, let's go back to 1970, when there was a different battle over inclusion. And this was a conflict that you frame as the conflict between old Hollywood and new Hollywood. So what were the films that were in conflict in 1970, the year that you write about, when there was a real clash between the old school and the new Hollywood?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The real thing that changed was the makeup of the membership. So in 2016, for the second year in a row, all of the 20 acting nominees were white. And an activist named April Reign had started a hashta"}
{"id": "1231762129", "date": "2024-02-19", "guest": "Michael Schulman", "title": "'Oscar Wars' spotlights bias, blind spots and backstage battles in the Academy", "question_index": 4, "text": "You know, one of the things I found really interesting in this chapter was that the actress Candice Bergen wrote a letter to Gregory Peck in 1970 suggesting challenging the rules for membership in the Academy because, she wrote, many or most members are anachronisms clogging the works of an incredibly facile mechanism called motion pictures. So she called some of the older members anachronisms.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. I mean, so there was this incredible year. In the year before, 1969, the best picture winner was \"Oliver!,\" which was the only G-rated movie to win the top prize. The whole rating system"}
{"id": "1231762129", "date": "2024-02-19", "guest": "Michael Schulman", "title": "'Oscar Wars' spotlights bias, blind spots and backstage battles in the Academy", "question_index": 5, "text": "And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1231762129", "date": "2024-02-19", "guest": "Michael Schulman", "title": "'Oscar Wars' spotlights bias, blind spots and backstage battles in the Academy", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yeah. You know what's interesting? Like, I'm all for new Hollywood, and there were so many movies that were just so out of touch. Like, the year we're talking about, 1970, one of the movies that was nominated was \"Hello, Dolly!\" So you have, like, \"Hello, Dolly!\" in the same year as \"Easy Rider.\" It really is a clash. But, you know, you can't just reject everybody who's old as being anachronism. I mean, classic Hollywood is just fabulous. Like, who wants to dump on that? Like, I'm rooting for both at the same time, old Hollywood and New Hollywood, but not some of the new films of 1970.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Isn't it great, that letter?"}
{"id": "1231762129", "date": "2024-02-19", "guest": "Michael Schulman", "title": "'Oscar Wars' spotlights bias, blind spots and backstage battles in the Academy", "question_index": 7, "text": "Another interesting thing - like, you write in this chapter about Bob Hope's comments during the ceremony 'cause he was hosting. He hosted for years. And at the beginning or toward the beginning of the ceremony, he said, this will go down in history as the cinema season which proved that crime doesn't pay, but there's a fortune in adultery, incest and homosexuality. This is not Academy Awards, it's a freak out. And he ended the ceremony after \"Midnight Cowboy\" won as Best Film by saying, never again will Hollywood be accused of showing a lollipop world. Perhaps by showing the nitty-gritty, by giving the world a glimpse of the elements of violence and its destructive effect, it will help cool it. More and more, films have explored the broad spectrum of human experience. They have fearlessly and, for the most part, with excellent taste examined behavior long considered taboo. How did he go from totally mocking films that dealt with open marriages, incest, homosexuality, to, like, praising those films for their fearlessness?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, right. I mean, this is sort of what the Oscars always brings up - is generational conflict. You know, I think the Oscars are a wonderful snapshot of Hollywood's past, present and future all col"}
{"id": "1231762129", "date": "2024-02-19", "guest": "Michael Schulman", "title": "'Oscar Wars' spotlights bias, blind spots and backstage battles in the Academy", "question_index": 8, "text": "Yeah, yeah", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, isn't it fascinating? I think you can see him kind of reckoning with this sea change in Hollywood and in popular culture. You know, and at the end, he kind of justifies it by saying, well, maybe"}
{"id": "1231762129", "date": "2024-02-19", "guest": "Michael Schulman", "title": "'Oscar Wars' spotlights bias, blind spots and backstage battles in the Academy", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, isn't it fascinating? I think you can see him kind of reckoning with this sea change in Hollywood and in popular culture. You know, and at the end, he kind of justifies it by saying, well, maybe"}
{"id": "1231762129", "date": "2024-02-19", "guest": "Michael Schulman", "title": "'Oscar Wars' spotlights bias, blind spots and backstage battles in the Academy", "question_index": 10, "text": "So \"Midnight Cowboy\" was going to receive an R or an X rating. The head of the studio that made the film wanted the X rating. Why would he want an X rating? Because that would mean it couldn't be advertised in newspapers. A lot of people would be afraid to go. They'd be afraid they'd be exposed to smut. So why did he want an X?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And these moments of transition and these moments of instability are always so fascinating. I mean, just that year, you know, seeing a Bob Hope reckon with the fact that this X-rated movie about a hus"}
{"id": "1231762129", "date": "2024-02-19", "guest": "Michael Schulman", "title": "'Oscar Wars' spotlights bias, blind spots and backstage battles in the Academy", "question_index": 11, "text": "But after it won the Oscar for Best Picture, the X was changed to an R. What was the logic behind that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, all of - the whole rating system was extremely new. It was one year old at that point. It had replaced the old production code, which had existed since the '30s. And, you know, the X, the scarle"}
{"id": "1231762129", "date": "2024-02-19", "guest": "Michael Schulman", "title": "'Oscar Wars' spotlights bias, blind spots and backstage battles in the Academy", "question_index": 12, "text": "Yeah, not a frame was changed in the movie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, so after it won the Oscar, they went back to the ratings board and it was changed to an R without changing anything. And there was some..."}
{"id": "1231762129", "date": "2024-02-19", "guest": "Michael Schulman", "title": "'Oscar Wars' spotlights bias, blind spots and backstage battles in the Academy", "question_index": 13, "text": "Let's take a short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Michael Schulman, a staff writer for The New Yorker and author of the book \"Oscar Wars: A History Of Hollywood In Gold, Sweat, And Tears.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. But there was some discomfort, I think, in Hollywood that, you know, an X-rated movie had won Best Picture. Like, what did that mean? You know, someone who was an executive at Paramount at the t"}
{"id": "1231762129", "date": "2024-02-19", "guest": "Michael Schulman", "title": "'Oscar Wars' spotlights bias, blind spots and backstage battles in the Academy", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Michael Schulman. His book \"Oscar Wars: The History Of Hollywood In Gold, Sweat, And Tears\" comes out in paperback this week. Let's talk about campaigning for Oscars, because it's become - as you write, it's become a cottage industry. Give us a sense of how big the industry is lobbying for Oscars.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. But there was some discomfort, I think, in Hollywood that, you know, an X-rated movie had won Best Picture. Like, what did that mean? You know, someone who was an executive at Paramount at the t"}
{"id": "1231762129", "date": "2024-02-19", "guest": "Michael Schulman", "title": "'Oscar Wars' spotlights bias, blind spots and backstage battles in the Academy", "question_index": 15, "text": "And that leads us to Harvey Weinstein, because he - as you put it, he turned campaigning for Oscars into a blood sport. What are some of the things that he did that no one had done before?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Well, in a way, it's a bit similar to a presidential campaign. You know, you have campaign strategists and publicists and people who spend the entire year working on campaign strategizing, plac"}
{"id": "1231762129", "date": "2024-02-19", "guest": "Michael Schulman", "title": "'Oscar Wars' spotlights bias, blind spots and backstage battles in the Academy", "question_index": 16, "text": "Talk a little bit about the campaigns between \"Saving Private Ryan,\" the Spielberg World War II film, and \"Shakespeare In Love,\" the comedy about Shakespeare that was produced by Weinstein's company, Miramax. What are some of the things that Weinstein did in that campaign that were unprecedented?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well before Harvey Weinstein really had his rise in the '90s at Miramax, you know, Oscar campaigning would be placing ads in the trade magazines, you know, for-your-consideration ads in Variety or wha"}
{"id": "1231762129", "date": "2024-02-19", "guest": "Michael Schulman", "title": "'Oscar Wars' spotlights bias, blind spots and backstage battles in the Academy", "question_index": 17, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Michael Schulman, author of the book \"Oscar Wars,\" which comes out this week in paperback. He's a staff writer for The New Yorker. We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so this was 1999, and this has just gone down in history as the ugliest best-picture fight of all time. An important part of that story is DreamWorks, which is Steven Spielberg's studio. DreamWo"}
{"id": "1231762129", "date": "2024-02-19", "guest": "Michael Schulman", "title": "'Oscar Wars' spotlights bias, blind spots and backstage battles in the Academy", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Michael Schulman, author of the book \"Oscar Wars: A History Of Hollywood In Gold, Sweat, And Tears.\" It's about the behind-the-scenes Oscar battles dating back to the founding of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences, battles over who gets to vote and who gets to win. The book comes out in paperback this week. Our interview was recorded last February, shortly before last year's Oscars and before the 2023 Writers Guild of America and Screen Actors Guild strikes. So we were talking about how Harvey Weinstein changed how people campaign for Oscars, making it a much more aggressive, much more expensive campaign. Talking about Harvey Weinstein leads us directly into the #MeToo movement and its impact on the Oscars. And one of those impacts is that Harvey Weinstein was expelled from the academy because of his sexual harassment and sexual assaults. But that led to some interesting problems for the academy about, what about other people who were accused of sexual harassment or assault, or who were found to have actually committed those acts? Talk about that a little bit.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Everybody's talking at me. I don't hear a word they're saying, only the echoes of my mind. People stopping, staring. I can't see their faces, only the shadows of their eyes. I'm going where "}
{"id": "1231762129", "date": "2024-02-19", "guest": "Michael Schulman", "title": "'Oscar Wars' spotlights bias, blind spots and backstage battles in the Academy", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah, I mean, people said at the time, you know, what about a Roman Polanski or so-and-so. What's interesting about the last couple of years is that Hollywood and movie fans - you know, us, the "}
{"id": "1231762129", "date": "2024-02-19", "guest": "Michael Schulman", "title": "'Oscar Wars' spotlights bias, blind spots and backstage battles in the Academy", "question_index": 20, "text": "You know, because, like, the history of Hollywood is so much involved with, like, the, quote, \"casting couch.\" The casting couch has been so intertwined with the history of Hollywood and the powerful men who ran the studios and the directors, too. So I just wonder, like, if you were to look at Hollywood's past, would, like, half of the powerful men or more than half be guilty? Like, what would that look like? Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So being in the academy is kind of the least of his problems."}
{"id": "1231762129", "date": "2024-02-19", "guest": "Michael Schulman", "title": "'Oscar Wars' spotlights bias, blind spots and backstage battles in the Academy", "question_index": 21, "text": "All right. Let's talk about the very beginning of the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences, which administers the Oscars. And only members of the academy are allowed to vote. That was founded in controversy involving a labor conflict because the studios were terrified of labor organizing. Tell us about that conflict.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean, Hollywood history is inextricable from sexual coercion and assault. I mean, you know, the Columbia Pictures mogul Harry Cohn was absolutely notorious for harassing actresses. You know, L"}
{"id": "1231762129", "date": "2024-02-19", "guest": "Michael Schulman", "title": "'Oscar Wars' spotlights bias, blind spots and backstage battles in the Academy", "question_index": 22, "text": "How would the academy prevent that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So the academy was founded in early 1927. It was the brainchild of Louis B. Mayer, the head of MGM. And the founders were basically 36 people who were a cross-section of the powerful people in "}
{"id": "1231762129", "date": "2024-02-19", "guest": "Michael Schulman", "title": "'Oscar Wars' spotlights bias, blind spots and backstage battles in the Academy", "question_index": 23, "text": "But the very first ceremony sounds very underwhelming.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, basically, by creating a platform for resolving labor disputes that was, you know, ultimately controlled by the powerful, you know? Like, for instance, if the writers were negotiating a contract"}
{"id": "1231762129", "date": "2024-02-19", "guest": "Michael Schulman", "title": "'Oscar Wars' spotlights bias, blind spots and backstage battles in the Academy", "question_index": 24, "text": "Done", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Yeah, well, it was very different. It was a banquet at the Blossom room of the Roosevelt Hotel. And there was dinner. There were a bunch of speeches. There was academy business. And then at the end,"}
{"id": "1231762129", "date": "2024-02-19", "guest": "Michael Schulman", "title": "'Oscar Wars' spotlights bias, blind spots and backstage battles in the Academy", "question_index": 25, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Yeah, well, it was very different. It was a banquet at the Blossom room of the Roosevelt Hotel. And there was dinner. There were a bunch of speeches. There was academy business. And then at the end,"}
{"id": "1231762129", "date": "2024-02-19", "guest": "Michael Schulman", "title": "'Oscar Wars' spotlights bias, blind spots and backstage battles in the Academy", "question_index": 26, "text": "Is it the first year of the Oscars that there was actually an Oscar for best title cards? And those are, like, the captions that you see in silent films.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And even then, I mean, what fascinates me about the very first Oscars is even at the beginning, Year 1, Hollywood was on such shaky grounds, you know? For instance, \"The Jazz Singer,\" the groundbreaki"}
{"id": "1231762129", "date": "2024-02-19", "guest": "Michael Schulman", "title": "'Oscar Wars' spotlights bias, blind spots and backstage battles in the Academy", "question_index": 27, "text": "Let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is New Yorker staff writer Michael Schulman, author of the book \"Oscar Wars: A History of Hollywood In Gold, Sweat And Tears.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Joseph Farnham was the - has the distinction of being the first and only winner of best title writing."}
{"id": "1231762129", "date": "2024-02-19", "guest": "Michael Schulman", "title": "'Oscar Wars' spotlights bias, blind spots and backstage battles in the Academy", "question_index": 28, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Michael Schulman about his book \"Oscar Wars: A History Of Hollywood In Gold, Sweat And Tears.\" It's about the behind-the-scenes conflicts and infighting over the Oscars ever since the awards started in 1929. Let's talk about the anti-communist hysteria of the late '40s and the '50s. In 1947, HUAC, the House Un-American Activities Committee, started targeting Hollywood because it was afraid that, you know, communists were dominating American broadcasting and telecasting and movies and that one tactic was to enlist glamorous personalities to appear at communist front meetings and rallies. So it was an understanding that Hollywood had a lot of sway over public opinion. And, you know, maybe Hollywood can turn America communist. Where the Oscars come in is that some Oscar nominees and some Oscar winners had written their screenplays under pseudonyms because they were blacklisted. So you have this situation where people who were fronts for the actual screenwriters, because the actual screenwriters are blacklisted, are getting up and getting the awards. And, you know, the people who are voting don't even necessarily know who the real writer is. So what are some of the crazy outcomes of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Joseph Farnham was the - has the distinction of being the first and only winner of best title writing."}
{"id": "1231762129", "date": "2024-02-19", "guest": "Michael Schulman", "title": "'Oscar Wars' spotlights bias, blind spots and backstage battles in the Academy", "question_index": 29, "text": "So what was Dalton Trumbo's reaction when this, like, fictitious name won the Oscar? And, of course, nobody was there to accept it because there was no such person.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK, so this is a Oscar scandal that was a bit lost to history that I absolutely loved. But in 1957, the actress Deborah Kerr came out and presented the award for best motion picture story - this categ"}
{"id": "1231762129", "date": "2024-02-19", "guest": "Michael Schulman", "title": "'Oscar Wars' spotlights bias, blind spots and backstage battles in the Academy", "question_index": 30, "text": "Was the academy punished by HUAC after rescinding that rule?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was very amused because, first of all, he didn't think very highly of his own movie. You know, he said, if this is what passes for originality, it tells you - you know, it goes to show you what the"}
{"id": "1231762129", "date": "2024-02-19", "guest": "Michael Schulman", "title": "'Oscar Wars' spotlights bias, blind spots and backstage battles in the Academy", "question_index": 31, "text": "And they were both such big films.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this was the kind of late '50s at this point, and HUAC was losing steam. You know, there was no way to officially end the blacklist. It had to just sort of die off. And, you know, Hollywood is a"}
{"id": "1231762129", "date": "2024-02-19", "guest": "Michael Schulman", "title": "'Oscar Wars' spotlights bias, blind spots and backstage battles in the Academy", "question_index": 32, "text": "Let's look at where we are today. You were in the balcony at the Oscars the night that Will Smith slapped Chris Rock, and you couldn't tell exactly what was going on. You're so deep into the Oscars. You've been deep into them ever since you were a kid. Was it exciting for you in its own peculiar way to be there for such a kind of dramatic moment that everyone will be talking about for years.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, and they were huge hits. So - and, like, President Kennedy went to see \"Spartacus\" and seemed to enjoy it. So suddenly it was a political non-event for Trumbo to get a screen credit."}
{"id": "1231762129", "date": "2024-02-19", "guest": "Michael Schulman", "title": "'Oscar Wars' spotlights bias, blind spots and backstage battles in the Academy", "question_index": 33, "text": "Yeah. Right. Right. Well, thank you for doing this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely. So what was interesting about it was that - OK, I was in the balcony. I am very nearsighted. That is important for this story. So I couldn't really see what was happening when the slap"}
{"id": "1231762129", "date": "2024-02-19", "guest": "Michael Schulman", "title": "'Oscar Wars' spotlights bias, blind spots and backstage battles in the Academy", "question_index": 34, "text": "Michael Schulman's book, \"Oscar Wars: A History of Hollywood In Gold, Sweat, and Tears\" comes out in paperback this week. Our interview was recorded just before last year's Oscars. This year's Oscars are Sunday, March 10. One of this year's nominees will be our guest tomorrow, Jeffrey Wright, who's nominated for best actor. He stars in \"American Fiction,\" which is nominated for best picture. Coming up, book critic Maureen Corrigan reviews a bestselling Japanese mystery series that's just been published in English. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me, Terry."}
{"id": "1233183695", "date": "2024-02-23", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "To become the 'Maestro,' Bradley Cooper learned to live the music", "question_index": 0, "text": "My guest, Bradley Cooper, directed, co-wrote and stars in the new film \"Maestro.\" He plays the internationally famous composer and conductor Leonard Bernstein. Also with us is the internationally famous conductor who served as Cooper's conducting consultant, Yannick Nezet-Seguin. He's the music and artistic director of the Philadelphia Orchestra, music director of the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra and principal conductor of the Orchestre Metropolitain de Montreal. Bernstein is considered the first great American conductor. He led the New York Philharmonic from 1957 to '69. He wrote classical music. His most popular music was the music he wrote for Broadway musicals, including \"On The Town,\" \"Wonderful Town,\" \"West Side Story,\" and \"Candide,\" and the score for the film \"On The Waterfront.\" \"Maestro\" is about his music life and his personal life. He was a very public figure, appearing often on TV and leading the Philharmonic in his \"Young People's Concerts.\" A major part of his life was kept hidden from the public. Although he was married to the actress Felicia Cohn-Montealegre and they had three children together, he was bisexual or gay and had flirtations and boyfriends during the years he was married. Felicia is played by Carey Mulligan. Bradley Cooper also wrote, directed and starred in the 2018 adaptation of \"A Star Is Born\" and starred in \"Nightmare Alley,\" \"American Sniper,\" \"American Hustle,\" \"Silver Linings Playbook,\" and \"The Hangover\" films. Bradley Cooper, Yannick Nezet-Seguin, welcome back to both of you. I really enjoyed this movie and am grateful to have the chance to talk with you both.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. We're counting down to the Oscars. And today, we feature our interview about the film \"Maestro.\" It's been nominated for seven Academy Awards, including best pictu"}
{"id": "1233183695", "date": "2024-02-23", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "To become the 'Maestro,' Bradley Cooper learned to live the music", "question_index": 1, "text": "Oh, thank you, Yannick. Bradley, you wanted to conduct since you were a child. And you asked for a baton as a birthday gift when you were a kid, and you conducted records in your bedroom, apparently before learning how to conduct for real. When you were conducting as a kid, did you just, like, basically wave your arms around a lot passionately when you were air conducting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Thank you for having us."}
{"id": "1233183695", "date": "2024-02-23", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "To become the 'Maestro,' Bradley Cooper learned to live the music", "question_index": 2, "text": "No, no. No. Oh, no offense intended.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I won't take offense to that, Terry, but..."}
{"id": "1233183695", "date": "2024-02-23", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "To become the 'Maestro,' Bradley Cooper learned to live the music", "question_index": 3, "text": "And Yannick, what is your relationship, musically, to Bernstein? Was he an important figure in your musical education?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, Bradley, I did the same exactly at the same age. And I do believe that, you know, maybe we, Terry, we were waving arms passionately, because in a way, the first immediate draw that we have w"}
{"id": "1233183695", "date": "2024-02-23", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "To become the 'Maestro,' Bradley Cooper learned to live the music", "question_index": 4, "text": "So there's a piece - it's kind of like the musical centerpiece of the film is when Bradley, you as Bernstein are conducting \"Mahler's Second,\" the final movement. And this is also known as the \"Resurrection\" symphony, and you're conducting with enormous passion. And I want to talk with you about conducting that. I want to talk with both of you about that, and then I want to play an excerpt of that piece. So let's get to Yannick. Let's start with you. This is a very complicated piece to conduct. It - you know, there's, I think, 100 people in the chorus and 100 musicians, and they're kind of on opposite sides of you. So, like, the conductor has to keep, like, turning. He's conducting, like, two separate groups at the same time. So let's start there. Like, how - Yannick, how do you do...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Bernstein was, hands down, always my greatest conducting model. I unfortunately can't call him a mentor because he passed away - I was 15. Well, we were both 15, Bradley and I. So - but still, from th"}
{"id": "1233183695", "date": "2024-02-23", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "To become the 'Maestro,' Bradley Cooper learned to live the music", "question_index": 5, "text": "...That?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And..."}
{"id": "1233183695", "date": "2024-02-23", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "To become the 'Maestro,' Bradley Cooper learned to live the music", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yeah. Yeah. And two...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Two soloists. Yeah."}
{"id": "1233183695", "date": "2024-02-23", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "To become the 'Maestro,' Bradley Cooper learned to live the music", "question_index": 7, "text": "...Vocal soloists.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1233183695", "date": "2024-02-23", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "To become the 'Maestro,' Bradley Cooper learned to live the music", "question_index": 8, "text": "And isn't it true, too, that Bernstein championed Mahler? That...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The more the merrier, we say. But the more people, the more complex it is to conduct, that's for sure. And the magnitude of this piece in terms of the requirements of, like you just said, the number o"}
{"id": "1233183695", "date": "2024-02-23", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "To become the 'Maestro,' Bradley Cooper learned to live the music", "question_index": 9, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely."}
{"id": "1233183695", "date": "2024-02-23", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "To become the 'Maestro,' Bradley Cooper learned to live the music", "question_index": 10, "text": "That Bernstein kind of brought Mahler into the canon.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1233183695", "date": "2024-02-23", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "To become the 'Maestro,' Bradley Cooper learned to live the music", "question_index": 11, "text": "So let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, I have two guests - Bradley Cooper stars as composer and conductor Leonard Bernstein in the new film \"Maestro,\" which Cooper also co-wrote and directed. Yannick Nezet-Seguin served as the film's conducting consultant. He conducts the Philadelphia Orchestra, the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra and the Orchestre Metropolitain de Montreal. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Before Bernstein, Mahler was completely snubbed, overlooked. Everybody was saying, oh, Mahler is overblown. Mahler is exaggerated. Mahler - he was completely misunderstood. And if you think about it, "}
{"id": "1233183695", "date": "2024-02-23", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "To become the 'Maestro,' Bradley Cooper learned to live the music", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Bradley Cooper and Yannick Nezet-Seguin. Cooper stars as composer and conductor Leonard Bernstein in the film \"Maestro,\" which Cooper also directed and co-wrote. Yannick served as Cooper's conducting consultant. He conducts the Philadelphia Orchestra and the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra. When we left off, we were talking about how Bernstein championed the work of composer Gustav Mahler. And the centerpiece of the movie features Cooper as Bernstein conducting Mahler's Second Symphony. So, Bradley, what did you do to get as accurately as you could what Bernstein did to conduct this piece?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "POSTLUDE\")"}
{"id": "1233183695", "date": "2024-02-23", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "To become the 'Maestro,' Bradley Cooper learned to live the music", "question_index": 13, "text": "So the part I want to start with at the end of \"Resurrection\" is where there's a slight pause in the music - it's, like, one beat - and then the music begins again. And when the music begins again, right after a choral part - or I should say a soloist part, you as Bernstein jump. And, you know, you jump in the air and continue conducting. Was jumping a kind of Bernstein thing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it's a very tricky endeavor because I had no desire to imitate what he was doing because that would have been a soulless, in my experience, endeavor. And I learned that early on when I did \"Am"}
{"id": "1233183695", "date": "2024-02-23", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "To become the 'Maestro,' Bradley Cooper learned to live the music", "question_index": 14, "text": "Yannick, do you ever jump?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Stomping on the podium after having been, you know, a foot in the air. So, yeah, that was one of his trademark sonic gifts to his conducting."}
{"id": "1233183695", "date": "2024-02-23", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "To become the 'Maestro,' Bradley Cooper learned to live the music", "question_index": 15, "text": "One more thing I want to ask before we hear the music, and that is there are passages in this in which, Bradley, you have your mouth wide open...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do. I unfortunately do a lot. But - I say unfortunately. I don't think I should be ashamed of it. You know, sometimes we're taught - in school, it's still taught that conducting should be this and t"}
{"id": "1233183695", "date": "2024-02-23", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "To become the 'Maestro,' Bradley Cooper learned to live the music", "question_index": 16, "text": "...As if just, you know, like, singing along or just expressing this sense of awe with your mouth, like, wide open. And, Yannick, I think I've seen you do that at the podium. Am I right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1233183695", "date": "2024-02-23", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "To become the 'Maestro,' Bradley Cooper learned to live the music", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I cannot imagine conducting mouth closed, especially not when there's a chorus."}
{"id": "1233183695", "date": "2024-02-23", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "To become the 'Maestro,' Bradley Cooper learned to live the music", "question_index": 18, "text": "And, Bradley, do you want to talk about conducting with your mouth open like that, what was going through your mind?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But what I'm saying is that, yeah, Lenny did that a lot. And I think we all do it because it's - yeah, it's kind of breathing. It's letting even more of the sound feeling open when we let our mouth "}
{"id": "1233183695", "date": "2024-02-23", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "To become the 'Maestro,' Bradley Cooper learned to live the music", "question_index": 19, "text": "All right. So time to actually hear the piece of music we've been talking about. This is Mahler's Second Symphony. And what we're hearing is the finale. And this is also called the \"Resurrection\" Symphony. So here's the end. And again, it starts with Bradley Cooper as Bernstein jumping in the air. This is partly through the finale. Here we go.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's important, Terry, to know that, you know, it was a crafted interpretation, not on click, not on anything. People were playing on Bradley's conducting. And I was there guiding, and I had been rehe"}
{"id": "1233183695", "date": "2024-02-23", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "To become the 'Maestro,' Bradley Cooper learned to live the music", "question_index": 20, "text": "Bradley Cooper stars as composer and conductor Leonard Bernstein in the new film \"Maestro,\" which Cooper also directed and co-wrote. Yannick Nezet-Seguin served as the film's conducting consultant. He conducts the Philadelphia Orchestra, the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra and the Orchestre Metropolitain de Montreal. \"Maestro\" focuses on Bernstein's music life and on his private life. He was famous as the conductor of the New York Philharmonic for his Young People's Concerts, his many TV appearances and for the music he wrote for the Broadway shows \"On The Town,\" \"Wonderful Town,\" \"West Side Story\" and \"Candide.\" Although he was married to the actress Felicia Cohn Montealegre Bernstein and they had three children together, he was queer and had flirtations and boyfriends during the years he was married. Felicia is played by Carey Mulligan. There's a scene that recreates a scene from real life in which Felicia and Leonard Bernstein were interviewed on the Edward R. Murrow program \"Person To Person,\" in which people would be interviewed in their homes. And Edward R. Murrow, who was a famous news reporter, especially during World War II, when he recorded from England during the bombing of London - he was the interviewer. So I want to play this scene where Leonard Bernstein and Felicia are being interviewed by him. And it starts with Murrow's first question.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. We're counting down to the Oscars today. Let's get back to Terry's interview from last month with Bradley Cooper and Yannick Nezet-Seguin about the film \"Maestro.\""}
{"id": "1233183695", "date": "2024-02-23", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "To become the 'Maestro,' Bradley Cooper learned to live the music", "question_index": 21, "text": "So that's a kind of reproduction, almost word for word, of the actual Edward R. Murrow interview with Leonard Bernstein and his wife, Felicia. And that - what we heard was Bradley Cooper and Carey Mulligan. So I want to get to something that Bernstein says at the end of this. And this is also almost word for word what he said to Edward R. Morrow in the actual interview. You know, in describing his life as a conductor and composer, he talks about how, as a conductor, it's a very kind of public life - meeting people, having a public face, performing in front of audiences. But when he's writing, it's a very, like, introverted life - alone in a room, not being social. And it's hard for him to do that because, you know, he doesn't like being alone very much. I'm wondering if either of you feel similarly because, you know, Yannick, when you're studying a score, you're not in front of an orchestra. I mean, you're home alone or in your office alone. And, Bradley, when you're writing, ditto for you. Or even when you're rehearsing alone, when you're just, like, looking at your lines, you're going through a process that's a very private, you know, alone kind of process. Do you feel the same kind of split in your lives that Bernstein is talking about in that interview?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Leonard Bernstein) Well, I suppose it's a difference. It's a personality difference which occurs between any composer versus any - or any creative versus any performer. Any performer, whether it's"}
{"id": "1233183695", "date": "2024-02-23", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "To become the 'Maestro,' Bradley Cooper learned to live the music", "question_index": 22, "text": "Let's take a short break here. I have two guests. Bradley Cooper stars as composer and conductor Leonard Bernstein in the new film \"Maestro,\" which Cooper also directed and co-wrote. Yannick Nezet-Seguin served as the film's conducting consultant. He conducts the Philadelphia Orchestra, the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra, and the Orchestre Metropolitain de Montreal. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "but, you know, in a way, that's not a dissimilar tension between, you know, being the music director as it's illustrated in the film for Bernstein. But, you know, me, even just as a conductor, as you "}
{"id": "1233183695", "date": "2024-02-23", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "To become the 'Maestro,' Bradley Cooper learned to live the music", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Bradley Cooper and Yannick Nezet-Seguin. Cooper stars as composer and conductor Leonard Bernstein in the film \"Maestro,\" which Cooper also directed and co-wrote. Yannick served as Cooper's conducting consultant. He conducts the Philadelphia Orchestra and the Metropolitan Opera Orchestra. So the movie is not only about Leonard Bernstein and music, it's about Bernstein's personal life and his relationship with his wife, Felicia Cohn Montealegre Bernstein. So she was born in Costa Rica to an American father and a Costa Rican mother with European ancestry. She moved to Chile when she was 8 and then to New York in her 20s. She was an actress. Was she a good actress? How's - like, what was her acting life like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "X\")"}
{"id": "1233183695", "date": "2024-02-23", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "To become the 'Maestro,' Bradley Cooper learned to live the music", "question_index": 24, "text": "She knew that he was gay or bisexual before they married. And I keep wondering, like, why did she marry him, knowing that his sexual orientation was at least partly not heterosexual?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would say she was a great actress. You can still see some of her television films on YouTube. And when she met Lenny when they were both in their mid-20s, one could argue that she was more famous th"}
{"id": "1233183695", "date": "2024-02-23", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "To become the 'Maestro,' Bradley Cooper learned to live the music", "question_index": 25, "text": "So that's a quote from a letter...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hopefully the movie is exploring that very question, potentially from a viewer, and answering it, hopefully, as well. To me, I certainly understand why she would still do it. Their connection was so s"}
{"id": "1233183695", "date": "2024-02-23", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "To become the 'Maestro,' Bradley Cooper learned to live the music", "question_index": 26, "text": "...Let's give it a whirl? OK. So the Russian conductor and composer Serge Koussevitzky, who emigrated to the U.S., recommended to Bernstein that he keep his life and work clean, meaning, I think, like, keep that you're gay or bisexual hidden, knowing it could ruin Bernstein's career. And he also suggested to Bernstein that he change his name to Burns. Koussevitzky was Jewish. He knew all about antisemitism, and he didn't want Bernstein to be a victim of that. And Bernstein didn't take either part of that advice. What was the extent to which he was out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1233183695", "date": "2024-02-23", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "To become the 'Maestro,' Bradley Cooper learned to live the music", "question_index": 27, "text": "Yeah 'cause the daughter has heard rumors that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that it was clear within his circle who he was. But more importantly, in terms of the movie, which is really what I could speak to, it was about a character who didn't quite understand why he "}
{"id": "1233183695", "date": "2024-02-23", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "To become the 'Maestro,' Bradley Cooper learned to live the music", "question_index": 28, "text": "...He's gay, and she wants to know if it's true. And Felicia tries to tell Bernstein don't tell her it's true.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She's heard - that's correct."}
{"id": "1233183695", "date": "2024-02-23", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "To become the 'Maestro,' Bradley Cooper learned to live the music", "question_index": 29, "text": "Yannick, how would you describe Bernstein's place in queer history - in queer, like, arts history?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he says, well, I mean, she's at an age where I think that it's probably time where she's able to know what it is that - and then Felicia says, no, absolutely not. That was my choice. And he says, "}
{"id": "1233183695", "date": "2024-02-23", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "To become the 'Maestro,' Bradley Cooper learned to live the music", "question_index": 30, "text": "There's a scene where Felicia and Leonard Bernstein have a big fight. And she accuses him of being egotistical and showing off onstage and making it seem like only he can appreciate the music so fully, so deeply. And she says by doing that, he diminishes everyone in the audience. And I understand where she's coming from on that. And I wonder how, if at all, you relate to what she's saying. And, Yannick, I want to start with you because you are the conductor onstage who is feeling so deeply, but I'm sure you're not trying to say I'm feeling this more deeply than you are", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I feel like we all know in classical music that Leonard Bernstein was gay or bisexual, as you put it. And of course, you're absolutely right in saying this. But it took many years to be able to be mor"}
{"id": "1233183695", "date": "2024-02-23", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "To become the 'Maestro,' Bradley Cooper learned to live the music", "question_index": 31, "text": ". But what do you think about that kind of response that the audience might be feeling?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I feel like we all know in classical music that Leonard Bernstein was gay or bisexual, as you put it. And of course, you're absolutely right in saying this. But it took many years to be able to be mor"}
{"id": "1233183695", "date": "2024-02-23", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "To become the 'Maestro,' Bradley Cooper learned to live the music", "question_index": 32, "text": "Dismissed in some way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Maybe it's something that Lenny had been accused of in his lifetime because, of course, he was a completely larger-than-life person and therefore larger-than-life conductor. And some of - well, a lot "}
{"id": "1233183695", "date": "2024-02-23", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "To become the 'Maestro,' Bradley Cooper learned to live the music", "question_index": 33, "text": "Bradley, what's your response to what Felicia says to Lenny?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Misunderstood. Yeah, misunderstood because of all this. And I believe that perhaps by experiencing the music on the podium in a very intense and noncensored way - you know, there was no boundaries for"}
{"id": "1233183695", "date": "2024-02-23", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "To become the 'Maestro,' Bradley Cooper learned to live the music", "question_index": 34, "text": "Yeah, some people thought he was just too performative, that it was just, like, showing off for the audience and not about the music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, just in terms of what he had to go through, Bernstein himself, you know, he was often asked about his antics, you know, on the podium. And he would always talk about how it was all about his rel"}
{"id": "1233183695", "date": "2024-02-23", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "To become the 'Maestro,' Bradley Cooper learned to live the music", "question_index": 35, "text": "I want to thank you both so much for the film and for being with us today to talk about it. Thank you, Bradley Cooper and Yannick Nezet-Seguin.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "miles away. And they stop looking at the conductor. And then, therefore, the conductor cannot have a career, or at least not a career in the scope that, you know, Bernstein did."}
{"id": "1234843874", "date": "2024-02-29", "guest": "Brad Onishi", "title": "Tracing the rise of Christian nationalism, from Trump to the Ala. Supreme Court", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Christian nationalism, including an extreme version advocated by the group the New Apostolic Reformation, the NAR, has become influential in American government and parts of the judicial system. The NAR advocates for Christian dominion over government, religion, family, business, education, arts and entertainment, and the media. According to the NAR, some of its opponents are afflicted by demons, which must be cast out through exorcism. The NAR has aligned itself with Donald Trump and efforts to overturn the election. Mike Johnson, the speaker of the House, has said he's been profoundly influenced by Dan Cummins, a Christian nationalist activist. A flag associated with the NAR hangs outside Johnson's office. An Alabama Supreme Court decision just made it illegal to destroy frozen, fertilized embryos that are used in infertility treatments because those embryos are people. The chief justice of the court wrote a concurring opinion that says even before birth, all human beings have the image of God and their lives cannot be destroyed without effacing his glory. My guest, Brad Onishi, not only studies Christian nationalism. He used to be part of that movement. He left after studying theology at Oxford University. He's the author of the book \"Preparing For War: The Extremist History Of White Christian Nationalism - And What Comes Next.\" He also co-hosts the podcast \"Straight White American Jesus,\" which reports on and analyzes the impact of Christian nationalism on American democracy. He teaches at the University of California, San Francisco. Brad Onishi, welcome to FRESH AIR. Do you think Christian nationalism has entered the mainstream?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1234843874", "date": "2024-02-29", "guest": "Brad Onishi", "title": "Tracing the rise of Christian nationalism, from Trump to the Ala. Supreme Court", "question_index": 1, "text": "Are there many people in Congress who are affiliated with Christian nationalism?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it has. Christian nationalism is having a moment. It's having a moment in ways that it's requiring those who adhere to its principles and ideologies to respond to it. Folks like Marjorie Taylo"}
{"id": "1234843874", "date": "2024-02-29", "guest": "Brad Onishi", "title": "Tracing the rise of Christian nationalism, from Trump to the Ala. Supreme Court", "question_index": 2, "text": "What are some of the fundamental principles of Christian nationalism? Like, how would you define Christian nationalism?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's fair to say that, yes. One of the things that's true about our Congress is that it is disproportionately Christian. Now, there are many different types of Christian people in our Congress"}
{"id": "1234843874", "date": "2024-02-29", "guest": "Brad Onishi", "title": "Tracing the rise of Christian nationalism, from Trump to the Ala. Supreme Court", "question_index": 3, "text": "Do you think the Chief Justice of the Alabama Supreme Court, in his concurring opinion that has outlawed the destruction of frozen embryos, equating frozen embryos used in infertility treatments with murdering people - do you think his concurring opinion, which keeps referencing God, is an example of Christian nationalism?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think in very simple terms, Christian nationalism is the idea that Christian people should be privileged in the United States in some way - economically, socially, politically - and that that influe"}
{"id": "1234843874", "date": "2024-02-29", "guest": "Brad Onishi", "title": "Tracing the rise of Christian nationalism, from Trump to the Ala. Supreme Court", "question_index": 4, "text": "And just as a sidebar here, he was mentored by a former Alabama Chief Justice, Roy Moore, who was famous for having a marble replica of the 10 Commandments in his courthouse. The Supreme Court declared that unconstitutional. He refused to take it down, and so he was ousted from the Supreme Court as a result.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So this is an example of Christian nationalism par excellence. The concurring opinion by Justice Tom Parker uses as its evidence to arrive at his legal opinion - it uses the Bible. It uses Christian m"}
{"id": "1234843874", "date": "2024-02-29", "guest": "Brad Onishi", "title": "Tracing the rise of Christian nationalism, from Trump to the Ala. Supreme Court", "question_index": 5, "text": "An extreme group of Christian nationalists is the New Apostolic Reformation, and they advocate the Seven Mountain Mandate, which is that Christian nationalists or Christians should lead government, family, religion, business, education, media, arts and entertainment, and that they - all of these sectors should reflect the kingdom of God. And I think I mentioned all seven there. So what does that mean to reflect the kingdom of God in family, religion, business, education, media, arts and entertainment, and the government?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Tom Parker is really the protege of Roy Moore, and Roy Moore was notorious for the 10 Commandments controversy that you just mentioned. Roy Moore was also notorious for his Senate run a couple of year"}
{"id": "1234843874", "date": "2024-02-29", "guest": "Brad Onishi", "title": "Tracing the rise of Christian nationalism, from Trump to the Ala. Supreme Court", "question_index": 6, "text": "What is the strategy for fulfilling the Seven Mountain Mandate?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Seven Mountains mandate is a particular form of understanding human society that says that Christian people are not called to persuade their neighbors to practice the Christian faith, to demonstra"}
{"id": "1234843874", "date": "2024-02-29", "guest": "Brad Onishi", "title": "Tracing the rise of Christian nationalism, from Trump to the Ala. Supreme Court", "question_index": 7, "text": "And this is a project of the conservative Heritage Foundation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When it comes to government, I think we're seeing the strategy play out in real time. The goal is to institute people at every level of government who will either act as Christians carrying out God's "}
{"id": "1234843874", "date": "2024-02-29", "guest": "Brad Onishi", "title": "Tracing the rise of Christian nationalism, from Trump to the Ala. Supreme Court", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, let's take a break here and then we'll talk some more. And when we come back, I want to talk about Donald Trump. My guest is Brad Onishi, author of the book \"Preparing For War: The Extremist History Of White Christian Nationalism - And What Comes Next.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The conservative Heritage Foundation. But if we look at the sponsors of Project 2025, we have others. We have Hillsdale College. We have Liberty University. We have the Claremont Institute. We have TP"}
{"id": "1234843874", "date": "2024-02-29", "guest": "Brad Onishi", "title": "Tracing the rise of Christian nationalism, from Trump to the Ala. Supreme Court", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview about the impact of Christian nationalism on American democracy with Brad Onishi. He's the author of the book \"Preparing For War: The Extremist History Of White Christian Nationalism - And What Comes Next.\" He co-hosts the podcast \"Straight White American Jesus.\" He teaches at the University of San Francisco. People often wonder, why do so many evangelicals support Donald Trump when his lifestyle is hardly a model of Christian values? His business practices, hardly, you know, a model of Christian values. The New Apostolic Reformation, an extreme group of Christian nationalists, sees Trump as the anointed person to help create a Christian state. Can you begin to explain that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The conservative Heritage Foundation. But if we look at the sponsors of Project 2025, we have others. We have Hillsdale College. We have Liberty University. We have the Claremont Institute. We have TP"}
{"id": "1234843874", "date": "2024-02-29", "guest": "Brad Onishi", "title": "Tracing the rise of Christian nationalism, from Trump to the Ala. Supreme Court", "question_index": 10, "text": "So when Trump says at the Ellipse on January 6, we fight like hell, and if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore, then you think that, like, the NAR really likes that kind of language 'cause it's about, like, fighting like hell, taking back the country, the kind of language that Trump uses that represents the kind of strong person who's willing to fight to take it back.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The New Apostolic Reformation and the Seven Mountains Mandate have their goal as conquest and power, as we discussed earlier. And so if your goal is to colonize the earth for God and to dominate Ameri"}
{"id": "1234843874", "date": "2024-02-29", "guest": "Brad Onishi", "title": "Tracing the rise of Christian nationalism, from Trump to the Ala. Supreme Court", "question_index": 11, "text": "Besides the fact that many Christian nationalists support Trump for reasons that you were describing, what are their direct connections to Trump?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that's exactly right. The trademark of the New Apostolic Reformation is spiritual warfare. They believe that all Christians are involved in a cosmic battle of good and evil. And so any languag"}
{"id": "1234843874", "date": "2024-02-29", "guest": "Brad Onishi", "title": "Tracing the rise of Christian nationalism, from Trump to the Ala. Supreme Court", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, let's take another break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Brad Onishi, author of the book \"Preparing For War: The Extremist History Of White Christian Nationalism - And What Comes Next.\" We'll talk more about the impact of Christian nationalism on American democracy after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think there's a litany of connections. I think what we saw in the first Trump term is that Trump promised to appoint to the Supreme Court those handpicked by the Federalist Society, and the Fe"}
{"id": "1234843874", "date": "2024-02-29", "guest": "Brad Onishi", "title": "Tracing the rise of Christian nationalism, from Trump to the Ala. Supreme Court", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview about Christian nationalism. My guest is Brad Onishi, a former Christian nationalist who has reversed his position and now writes critically about the movement and its impact on American democracy. He's the author of the book \"Preparing For War: The Extremist History Of White Christian Nationalism - And What Comes Next.\" He co-hosts the podcast \"Straight White American Jesus,\" which reports on and critiques Christian nationalism. He teaches at the University of San Francisco. There's a photo of Trump in the White House, and a group of evangelical leaders are kind of doing a laying on of hands, like, a group laying on of hands. What does that photo signify?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think there's a litany of connections. I think what we saw in the first Trump term is that Trump promised to appoint to the Supreme Court those handpicked by the Federalist Society, and the Fe"}
{"id": "1234843874", "date": "2024-02-29", "guest": "Brad Onishi", "title": "Tracing the rise of Christian nationalism, from Trump to the Ala. Supreme Court", "question_index": 14, "text": "Did you recognize many of the people in that photo as being leaders within the Christian nationalist movement?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it signifies a couple of things - one, that Trump is willing to allow those leaders to pray for him, and that he is showing to anyone who will see the photo and who will pay any attentio"}
{"id": "1234843874", "date": "2024-02-29", "guest": "Brad Onishi", "title": "Tracing the rise of Christian nationalism, from Trump to the Ala. Supreme Court", "question_index": 15, "text": "I'm sure you've seen this, but Trump posted a video on his social media platform, Truth Social, and it's called God Made Trump. And I just want to - the sound quality on it isn't very good, so I'm not going to play the audio, but I will quote some of what is said in it. So the narrator says, God looked down on his planned paradise and said, I need a caretaker. So God gave us Trump. God had to have somebody willing to go into the den of vipers, call out the fake news for their tongues as sharp as serpents. The poison of vipers is on their lips, so God made Trump. God said, I need somebody to be strong and courageous, who will not be afraid or terrified of the wolves when they attack, a man who cares for the flock, a shepherd to mankind who will never leave or forsake them. What do you know about this video?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did and I think one stands out, and it's somebody that I think has become somewhat infamous over the last couple of years, and that's the worship leader and influencer Sean Feucht. Sean Feucht is so"}
{"id": "1234843874", "date": "2024-02-29", "guest": "Brad Onishi", "title": "Tracing the rise of Christian nationalism, from Trump to the Ala. Supreme Court", "question_index": 16, "text": "Trump really must love the idea that a lot of Christian nationalists see him as the anointed one", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "what I know is the video is audacious, to say the least. But for me, when I saw it, it confirmed everything that we had known for years now. And that is that Trump has fashioned himself as specificall"}
{"id": "1234843874", "date": "2024-02-29", "guest": "Brad Onishi", "title": "Tracing the rise of Christian nationalism, from Trump to the Ala. Supreme Court", "question_index": 17, "text": "who's going to lead us to a more Christian nation. But the idea that he is the anointed one must be so affirming of everything he believes of himself", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "what I know is the video is audacious, to say the least. But for me, when I saw it, it confirmed everything that we had known for years now. And that is that Trump has fashioned himself as specificall"}
{"id": "1234843874", "date": "2024-02-29", "guest": "Brad Onishi", "title": "Tracing the rise of Christian nationalism, from Trump to the Ala. Supreme Court", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "what I know is the video is audacious, to say the least. But for me, when I saw it, it confirmed everything that we had known for years now. And that is that Trump has fashioned himself as specificall"}
{"id": "1234843874", "date": "2024-02-29", "guest": "Brad Onishi", "title": "Tracing the rise of Christian nationalism, from Trump to the Ala. Supreme Court", "question_index": 19, "text": "I want to get back to the New Apostolic Reformation, a group at the far edge of Christian nationalism. Let's talk about that group's involvement in January 6. What did you see at the actual riot that led you to believe that the people you were watching were Christian nationalists?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It really seems that way. It really seems that this is a role he believes he (inaudible) for, and it's not one that he's shying away from. But I also think that it really reflects a place that we've a"}
{"id": "1234843874", "date": "2024-02-29", "guest": "Brad Onishi", "title": "Tracing the rise of Christian nationalism, from Trump to the Ala. Supreme Court", "question_index": 20, "text": "I just want to intercede here and say that the Appeal to Heaven flag that you just mentioned, that's the flag that is hung outside of Mike Johnson's office, the speaker of the House.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As the riot unfolded, many scholars of religion, like myself, gathered on Twitter and began using a hashtag, #CapitolSiegeReligion, in order to collect symbols and pictures and videos from the insurre"}
{"id": "1234843874", "date": "2024-02-29", "guest": "Brad Onishi", "title": "Tracing the rise of Christian nationalism, from Trump to the Ala. Supreme Court", "question_index": 21, "text": "So much more to talk about. But right now, we have to take a short break. So let me reintroduce you. My guest is Brad Onishi, author of the book \"Preparing For War: The Extremist History Of White Christian Nationalism - And What Comes Next.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is. And that flag has roots in the American Revolution. It - George Washington, and it was inspired by John Locke. However, the argument that I've made, again with my colleague Matt Taylor, is that"}
{"id": "1234843874", "date": "2024-02-29", "guest": "Brad Onishi", "title": "Tracing the rise of Christian nationalism, from Trump to the Ala. Supreme Court", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview about the impact of Christian nationalism on American democracy with Brad Onishi. He's the author of the book \"Preparing For War: The Extremist History Of White Christian Nationalism - And What Comes Next.\" He co-hosts the podcast \"Straight White American Jesus\" and teaches at the University of San Francisco. I want to ask you about the founder of the New Apostolic Reformation, C. Peter Wagner. And again, this is the group that's really on the far fringe of Christian nationalism, like perhaps the or one of the most extreme groups. That's also kind of codified some of the beliefs. Is that fair to say?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is. And that flag has roots in the American Revolution. It - George Washington, and it was inspired by John Locke. However, the argument that I've made, again with my colleague Matt Taylor, is that"}
{"id": "1234843874", "date": "2024-02-29", "guest": "Brad Onishi", "title": "Tracing the rise of Christian nationalism, from Trump to the Ala. Supreme Court", "question_index": 23, "text": "C. Peter Wagner died in 2016, shortly after endorsing Donald Trump. I got to interview C. Peter Wagner in 2011. I had interviewed a journalist who had done a kind of investigative piece about the New Apostolic Reformation. And then right after we heard from her on our show, I interviewed C. Peter Wagner. And one of the things that Wagner believed in was demons and that demons are controlling certain territories. They're controlling certain people, and they have to be - those demons have to be driven out. So I asked him about demons when I interviewed him. And here's a clip from that interview. And this interview is from 2011.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is. And I think they're very much leading the charge on the kinds of visions for America that Christian nationalists are putting forth today."}
{"id": "1234843874", "date": "2024-02-29", "guest": "Brad Onishi", "title": "Tracing the rise of Christian nationalism, from Trump to the Ala. Supreme Court", "question_index": 24, "text": "The word demon figures prominently into the New Apostolic Reformation. Demons figure prominently in your religious views. You and other people in the New Apostolic Reformation have described demons as if they are alive and functioning in America and in other countries around the world. So do you believe that there are actually like living demons, like Satan's representatives who are functioning in America now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is. And I think they're very much leading the charge on the kinds of visions for America that Christian nationalists are putting forth today."}
{"id": "1234843874", "date": "2024-02-29", "guest": "Brad Onishi", "title": "Tracing the rise of Christian nationalism, from Trump to the Ala. Supreme Court", "question_index": 25, "text": "Do you believe that there are people in American politics who are possessed by demons?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. As a matter of fact, in Oklahoma City, there's a annual meeting of a professional society called the International Society of Deliverance Ministers, which my wife and I founded many years "}
{"id": "1234843874", "date": "2024-02-29", "guest": "Brad Onishi", "title": "Tracing the rise of Christian nationalism, from Trump to the Ala. Supreme Court", "question_index": 26, "text": "How can you tell? Like, when somebody's been afflicted by a demon, how can you tell?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We don't like the word - to use the word possessed because that means they don't have any power of their own. We like to use the word afflicted or technical term demonized. But there are people who, y"}
{"id": "1234843874", "date": "2024-02-29", "guest": "Brad Onishi", "title": "Tracing the rise of Christian nationalism, from Trump to the Ala. Supreme Court", "question_index": 27, "text": "OK. That was C. Peter Wagner recorded on FRESH AIR in 2011. And he, again, is the founder of the New Apostolic Reformation, an extremist but growing rapidly group of Christian nationalists. Brad, your reaction to the idea of demons and the need to cast them out, cast them out of people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sometimes they know. Sometimes the demon has identified itself to the person. Sometimes you can tell by manifestations of superhuman, unhuman behavior. Sometimes you can tell by skilled deliverance mi"}
{"id": "1234843874", "date": "2024-02-29", "guest": "Brad Onishi", "title": "Tracing the rise of Christian nationalism, from Trump to the Ala. Supreme Court", "question_index": 28, "text": "Well, let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Brad Onishi. He's the author of the book \"Preparing For War: The Extremist History Of White Christian Nationalism - And What Comes Next.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that Wagner's views 10 years ago might have seemed jarring to the average American. Certainly, 20 or 25 years ago, they would have been even more fringe. However, as somebody who grew up"}
{"id": "1234843874", "date": "2024-02-29", "guest": "Brad Onishi", "title": "Tracing the rise of Christian nationalism, from Trump to the Ala. Supreme Court", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview about the impact of Christian nationalism on American democracy with Brad Onishi, author of the book \"Preparing For War: The Extremist History Of White Christian Nationalism - And What Comes Next.\" He co-hosts the podcast \"Straight White American Jesus.\" So let's talk about your experiences as a Christian nationalist when you were a teenager. You first went to church - or to a Christian nationalist church because your girlfriend was a member, and you say it was a great excuse to spend time with her on a weekday night. But then you got really caught up in the teachings of the church. What were the teachings at that time that got you interested?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that Wagner's views 10 years ago might have seemed jarring to the average American. Certainly, 20 or 25 years ago, they would have been even more fringe. However, as somebody who grew up"}
{"id": "1234843874", "date": "2024-02-29", "guest": "Brad Onishi", "title": "Tracing the rise of Christian nationalism, from Trump to the Ala. Supreme Court", "question_index": 30, "text": "And how did Christian nationalism figure into that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I was a kind of angsty teenager who found in church two things. One, all of the answers to the questions about the meaning of life and the meaning of my life I found in church, the idea that"}
{"id": "1234843874", "date": "2024-02-29", "guest": "Brad Onishi", "title": "Tracing the rise of Christian nationalism, from Trump to the Ala. Supreme Court", "question_index": 31, "text": "So you became a youth minister when you were in your teens. What did you preach?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My church was shaped by the politics of the 1960s. I grew up in Orange County, Calif. And I'm a mixed race person, but it was a predominantly white church. And it was not a church where you went to he"}
{"id": "1234843874", "date": "2024-02-29", "guest": "Brad Onishi", "title": "Tracing the rise of Christian nationalism, from Trump to the Ala. Supreme Court", "question_index": 32, "text": "How did you leave the church? I know you studied theology at Oxford, and that inspired you to challenge the views that you had held for so long. What were you exposed to at Oxford studying theology that made you rethink the foundation of your beliefs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, so I became a minister at 18 and a full-time minister at 20. And I preached things that are - you know, were related to conservative Christianity, that unless you accepted the gospel of Jesus Ch"}
{"id": "1234843874", "date": "2024-02-29", "guest": "Brad Onishi", "title": "Tracing the rise of Christian nationalism, from Trump to the Ala. Supreme Court", "question_index": 33, "text": "So one more question. Since 2018, you've been co-host of the podcast \"Straight White American Jesus.\" That is a title that is bound to intrigue some people, confuse some people and make some people really angry. So tell us about coming up with that title and reactions that you've gotten to it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The process really began a few years before that. I was somebody who, as a convert, was incredibly zealous. And as a future professor, I was somebody who would read anything he could get his hands on."}
{"id": "1234843874", "date": "2024-02-29", "guest": "Brad Onishi", "title": "Tracing the rise of Christian nationalism, from Trump to the Ala. Supreme Court", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's really hard to put on a T-shirt..."}
{"id": "1234843874", "date": "2024-02-29", "guest": "Brad Onishi", "title": "Tracing the rise of Christian nationalism, from Trump to the Ala. Supreme Court", "question_index": 35, "text": "Well, thank you so much for coming on FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Because it just gives the wrong - we have not sold a lot of T-shirts as part of the podcast. Here's the goal behind the name. My co-host Dan Miller and I wanted to help others understand why, when "}
{"id": "1234843874", "date": "2024-02-29", "guest": "Brad Onishi", "title": "Tracing the rise of Christian nationalism, from Trump to the Ala. Supreme Court", "question_index": 36, "text": "Bradley Onishi is the author of the book \"Preparing For War: The Extremist History Of White Christian Nationalism And What Comes Next.\" He co-hosts a podcast about religion and politics called \"Straight White American Jesus.\" He teaches at the University of San Francisco. If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, like this week's interviews with Denis Villeneuve, the director of the new film \"Dune Part Two,\" or actress Busy Philipps, a star of the film \"Mean Girls\" and the series \"Girls5eva,\" or with neurologist Charan Ranganath about how our brain remembers and forgets, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. And for a behind-the-scenes look at our show and suggestions from our producers of things to watch, read and listen to, subscribe to our free newsletter at whyy.org/freshair. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our senior producer today is Sam Briger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Meyers, Roberta Shorrock, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Privilege is all mine. Thank you so much."}
{"id": "1234862319", "date": "2024-03-01", "guest": "Jamie Lee Curtis", "title": "Remembering Richard Lewis, a veteran stand-up comedian with a caustic wit", "question_index": 0, "text": "How did the \"I'm Exhausted\" show come about? Do you go around saying to friends all the time, oh, God, I'm exhausted?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just - I'm a hypochondriac. My grandparents, I just - they lived in a place that made me. So out of it in Florida. I think the condo was called Crestfallen. That was the name of it, you know? So I f"}
{"id": "1234862319", "date": "2024-03-01", "guest": "Jamie Lee Curtis", "title": "Remembering Richard Lewis, a veteran stand-up comedian with a caustic wit", "question_index": 1, "text": "Did you enjoy being sick when you were a kid?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I said that, actually, I think, to my mother moments after I was born. I just have always been exhausted for the fear that I wouldn't do enough work. That's a whole other area, isn't it? I don't alway"}
{"id": "1234862319", "date": "2024-03-01", "guest": "Jamie Lee Curtis", "title": "Remembering Richard Lewis, a veteran stand-up comedian with a caustic wit", "question_index": 2, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I did because I usually wasn't. And - but people did. It was like a hypochondriacal kabuki theater I put on..."}
{"id": "1234862319", "date": "2024-03-01", "guest": "Jamie Lee Curtis", "title": "Remembering Richard Lewis, a veteran stand-up comedian with a caustic wit", "question_index": 3, "text": "Are you a hypochondriac now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...For the family. And I had different makeups for different ailments, of course. The flu, I felt, was the dead giveaway. I mean, it was this kabuki, very white makeup, and it was almost a mask-like e"}
{"id": "1234862319", "date": "2024-03-01", "guest": "Jamie Lee Curtis", "title": "Remembering Richard Lewis, a veteran stand-up comedian with a caustic wit", "question_index": 4, "text": "What are the diseases you most often think you're getting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, sadly."}
{"id": "1234862319", "date": "2024-03-01", "guest": "Jamie Lee Curtis", "title": "Remembering Richard Lewis, a veteran stand-up comedian with a caustic wit", "question_index": 5, "text": "Do you ever have audiences who are so well-adjusted that they don't get your jokes about neuroses?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I would say, mostly - and not to make light of diseases because they're so horrific, and certainly, the sexual stuff now is so frightening. I basically get worried when I see any kind of rash, e"}
{"id": "1234862319", "date": "2024-03-01", "guest": "Jamie Lee Curtis", "title": "Remembering Richard Lewis, a veteran stand-up comedian with a caustic wit", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't like to consider any audience well-adjusted. Seriously, I hate - I don't - first, I don't like to judge people. And I certainly..."}
{"id": "1234862319", "date": "2024-03-01", "guest": "Jamie Lee Curtis", "title": "Remembering Richard Lewis, a veteran stand-up comedian with a caustic wit", "question_index": 7, "text": "You've done the David Letterman show a lot of times.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I certainly wouldn't judge people in that light. I don't find too many people are well-adjusted, and if they were, I wouldn't go over very well. If I bomb, if I ever bomb - thank God I don't bomb "}
{"id": "1234862319", "date": "2024-03-01", "guest": "Jamie Lee Curtis", "title": "Remembering Richard Lewis, a veteran stand-up comedian with a caustic wit", "question_index": 8, "text": "How many times, do you keep count?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1234862319", "date": "2024-03-01", "guest": "Jamie Lee Curtis", "title": "Remembering Richard Lewis, a veteran stand-up comedian with a caustic wit", "question_index": 9, "text": "Do you prepare for it when you go on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thought it was somewhere in the high 30s, you know."}
{"id": "1234862319", "date": "2024-03-01", "guest": "Jamie Lee Curtis", "title": "Remembering Richard Lewis, a veteran stand-up comedian with a caustic wit", "question_index": 10, "text": "Doesn't Letterman strike you as a pretty healthy, well-adjusted guy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My father would go, oh, that's gin. He would say, that's gin."}
{"id": "1234862319", "date": "2024-03-01", "guest": "Jamie Lee Curtis", "title": "Remembering Richard Lewis, a veteran stand-up comedian with a caustic wit", "question_index": 11, "text": "Can I ask you what your bar mitzvah was like? And here's why I ask it. For a lot - you know, a bar mitzvah is, in Jewish terms, it's a religious ceremony to mark the beginning of manhood.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Again, I hate to judge people's good health. I'll say this, I think so. I mean, he's so - was such - we're so night and day together, I mean, why I think the chemistry has been effective for him and m"}
{"id": "1234862319", "date": "2024-03-01", "guest": "Jamie Lee Curtis", "title": "Remembering Richard Lewis, a veteran stand-up comedian with a caustic wit", "question_index": 12, "text": "But for a lot of people, it's like their first opening act, you know, like, their first initiation into show business because, like, you're the star of the show. There's a band, there's an emcee. You know, everybody in your family gets to dance and everything, and you're the star. Was it like - what kind of bar mitzvah did you have?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1234862319", "date": "2024-03-01", "guest": "Jamie Lee Curtis", "title": "Remembering Richard Lewis, a veteran stand-up comedian with a caustic wit", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Spielberg could not have done justice..."}
{"id": "1234862319", "date": "2024-03-01", "guest": "Jamie Lee Curtis", "title": "Remembering Richard Lewis, a veteran stand-up comedian with a caustic wit", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...To what I had. First of all, my father, who has passed on, was the greatest caterer in the area in New Jersey and in parts of New York. He was really a genius. So of course, he catered my bar mitzv"}
{"id": "1234862319", "date": "2024-03-01", "guest": "Jamie Lee Curtis", "title": "Remembering Richard Lewis, a veteran stand-up comedian with a caustic wit", "question_index": 15, "text": "You're kidding", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I had to settle for a Tuesday afternoon."}
{"id": "1234862319", "date": "2024-03-01", "guest": "Jamie Lee Curtis", "title": "Remembering Richard Lewis, a veteran stand-up comedian with a caustic wit", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I had to settle for a Tuesday afternoon."}
{"id": "1234862319", "date": "2024-03-01", "guest": "Jamie Lee Curtis", "title": "Remembering Richard Lewis, a veteran stand-up comedian with a caustic wit", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yeah, when you talk about your neurosis, I can relate to some of that and say, yeah, now, that's really funny. And maybe I'll feel a little better about myself. So are you going to feel better about yourself if I laugh at your jokes about your neuroses?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "you know what I mean? So I think she had a love-hate thing with it, you know?"}
{"id": "1234862319", "date": "2024-03-01", "guest": "Jamie Lee Curtis", "title": "Remembering Richard Lewis, a veteran stand-up comedian with a caustic wit", "question_index": 18, "text": "Well, the last thing you want to do is to share your problems on stage in a way that you think is really funny, and instead of people laughing, they feel sorry for you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. I really do feel validated, you know, that I'm not alone. I do - there's no question I feel less alone. I mean, there's nothing worse when I try to, you know, tell a - have a riff onstage "}
{"id": "1234862319", "date": "2024-03-01", "guest": "Jamie Lee Curtis", "title": "Remembering Richard Lewis, a veteran stand-up comedian with a caustic wit", "question_index": 19, "text": "Has that ever happened to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, that - yeah. I mean..."}
{"id": "1234862319", "date": "2024-03-01", "guest": "Jamie Lee Curtis", "title": "Remembering Richard Lewis, a veteran stand-up comedian with a caustic wit", "question_index": 20, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Once I said, you know, I'm not a complainer. And three dozen people moaned."}
{"id": "1234862319", "date": "2024-03-01", "guest": "Jamie Lee Curtis", "title": "Remembering Richard Lewis, a veteran stand-up comedian with a caustic wit", "question_index": 21, "text": "Your comedy has always been about, well, yourself and neurosis...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I almost - I mean, if there was a trap door in that concert hall, I would have gone down it."}
{"id": "1234862319", "date": "2024-03-01", "guest": "Jamie Lee Curtis", "title": "Remembering Richard Lewis, a veteran stand-up comedian with a caustic wit", "question_index": 22, "text": "...And hypochondria. How did you know when you started in comedy that you were going to be your subject matter and that your insecurities were going to be what your comedy was about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1236564681", "date": "2024-03-08", "guest": "Emma Stone", "title": "How 'Poor Things' actor Emma Stone turns her anxiety into a 'superpower'", "question_index": 0, "text": "My guest, Emma Stone, is nominated for an Oscar for her starring role in \"Poor Things.\" She won an Oscar for her performance in the movie musical \"La La Land,\" starring opposite Ryan Gosling, and was nominated for Oscars for her performances in \"Birdman\" and \"The Favourite.\" She co-stars in the new streaming series \"The Curse.\" She's been acting since she was 11 and was so determined to make acting a central part of her life, she convinced her parents to let her be homeschooled so she could devote more time to acting and then convinced them at the age of 15 to go to LA so she could go to auditions. Although she did not have a conventional high school experience, she first became known for two movies about high school kids, \"Superbad\" and \"Easy A.\" In addition to her nomination for \"Poor Things,\" the film is also nominated for best picture, which means she is nominated for a second Oscar because she's a producer of the film. She plays Bella, a woman who has died by suicide, jumping off a bridge. She's brought back to life by a weird surgeon played by Willem Dafoe. Dafoe's experiment is reanimating Bella and giving her the brain of an infant. She's trained and taught over time by the surgeon's assistant, but she never quite grasps the rules of society. When she discovers her genitals and pleasures herself, she demonstrates this discovery to her trainer, and when her brain develops into a young adult brain, she leaves the surgeon and her mentor to go on an adventure while traveling with a man who has become obsessed with her, played by Mark Ruffalo. He claims to be a prosperous sophisticate who can't be tied down, but in Paris, when his money is gone, Bella decides to earn money by working in a brothel, where she can learn what other men are like sexually. In this scene, she's just left the brothel with some money after her first sexual encounter there. She meets up with Ruffalo, and he's in despair because he's now broke, and he's appalled when he learns what she's just done.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli. The Academy Awards are Sunday, and today we conclude our series of interviews with Oscar nominees. The film \"Poor Things\" has been nominated for 11 Oscars, incl"}
{"id": "1236564681", "date": "2024-03-08", "guest": "Emma Stone", "title": "How 'Poor Things' actor Emma Stone turns her anxiety into a 'superpower'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Emma Stone, welcome to FRESH AIR. I love this movie and your performance in it. And the film - it's, like, really interesting and also really funny, which I hope people got a sense of from that clip. So, you know, the movie is in part what women's lives would be like if they weren't socialized to have shame about sexuality and if people weren't taught that it was impolite to talk about sex in public. And I'm wondering what it got you thinking about in terms of your life and how you were brought up about your body and sexuality and independence.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Bella Baxter) We should definitely never marry. I'm a flawed, experimenting person, and I will need a husband with a more forgiving disposition."}
{"id": "1236564681", "date": "2024-03-08", "guest": "Emma Stone", "title": "How 'Poor Things' actor Emma Stone turns her anxiety into a 'superpower'", "question_index": 2, "text": "My pleasure. Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's - well, thank you for having me, first of all."}
{"id": "1236564681", "date": "2024-03-08", "guest": "Emma Stone", "title": "How 'Poor Things' actor Emma Stone turns her anxiety into a 'superpower'", "question_index": 3, "text": "So it sounds like making \"Poor Things\" was a great antidote to the kind of religious constrictions and guilt that you felt growing up 'cause your character is so uninhibited, 'cause no one has ever told her what she's supposed to be inhibited about, which leads me to the sexual scenes. I mean, because your character is sexually uninhibited, you had to be uninhibited portraying her, and you were offered an intimacy coordinator. And at first you rejected the idea and didn't think you needed it 'cause you knew the director so well. But then you reconsidered and had an intimacy coordinator. How was it helpful?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is lovely to get the chance to be here. I'm from Phoenix, Ariz., and I was born in 1988, so the majority of my childhood took place in the '90s. And I definitely didn't think the way that Bella d"}
{"id": "1236564681", "date": "2024-03-08", "guest": "Emma Stone", "title": "How 'Poor Things' actor Emma Stone turns her anxiety into a 'superpower'", "question_index": 4, "text": "What do you think she protected you from?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Beyond useful. Well, first of all, I don't think having an intimacy coordinator is even a choice anymore. I think in the past five years, the industry has changed a lot for the better. And, you know, "}
{"id": "1236564681", "date": "2024-03-08", "guest": "Emma Stone", "title": "How 'Poor Things' actor Emma Stone turns her anxiety into a 'superpower'", "question_index": 5, "text": "My guest is Emma Stone. She's nominated for two Oscars for producing and starring in the new film \"Poor Things.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think it was protection from any of the experiences that I was having on set. I think it was almost like an emotional protection. It was like a - you know, a safe place and someone who really "}
{"id": "1236564681", "date": "2024-03-08", "guest": "Emma Stone", "title": "How 'Poor Things' actor Emma Stone turns her anxiety into a 'superpower'", "question_index": 6, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Emma Stone. She's nominated for two Oscars for the film \"Poor Things\" - one for her starring role in the film and one for producing the film. She plays Bella, an adult woman who died by suicide and is brought back to life but with the implanted brain of a child. So Bella, your character doesn't understand emotions like jealousy and anxiety. You suffered from anxiety and panic attacks as a child, starting, I think, at age 7. Can you describe what a panic attack feels like physically and emotionally when you're 7 years old?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think it was protection from any of the experiences that I was having on set. I think it was almost like an emotional protection. It was like a - you know, a safe place and someone who really "}
{"id": "1236564681", "date": "2024-03-08", "guest": "Emma Stone", "title": "How 'Poor Things' actor Emma Stone turns her anxiety into a 'superpower'", "question_index": 7, "text": "What were you afraid of about going to school?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. For me - I mean, people have different experiences of panic attacks. I know a lot of people feel like they're dying or that the walls are closing in on them. And I certainly have had those types"}
{"id": "1236564681", "date": "2024-03-08", "guest": "Emma Stone", "title": "How 'Poor Things' actor Emma Stone turns her anxiety into a 'superpower'", "question_index": 8, "text": "No. Exactly. Like, what were you going to do, exactly, to help her when you were 7?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think just - I had massive separation anxiety from my mom. That was a large part, I think, of what was setting off my anxiety. I, for some reason, had convinced myself that if I wasn't watching out "}
{"id": "1236564681", "date": "2024-03-08", "guest": "Emma Stone", "title": "How 'Poor Things' actor Emma Stone turns her anxiety into a 'superpower'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Therapy is a very private experience, so I don't want you to share things - I'm not asking you to share things that are too private to be shared, but if there are any, like, tools or approaches that you were taught in therapy that you felt like sharing, I'd love to hear it. And they might be helpful to others to hear.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No idea. No idea. But that's that, you know, strange thing that happens with kids when, you know, you sort of - it's irrational. These things are irrational. It's just this - you're convinced of certa"}
{"id": "1236564681", "date": "2024-03-08", "guest": "Emma Stone", "title": "How 'Poor Things' actor Emma Stone turns her anxiety into a 'superpower'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Where does acting fit into this? Like, when you are acting - when you started acting as a kid - you were 11, I think, when you started performing - do you feel like you were escaping yourself and therefore out of your anxiety and escaping your body 'cause your body became controlled by the character?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So as a kid, I mean, one of the things that my - the child psychologist had me do was - you know, there's a lot of drawing pictures and playing games and things like that when you're that age in"}
{"id": "1236564681", "date": "2024-03-08", "guest": "Emma Stone", "title": "How 'Poor Things' actor Emma Stone turns her anxiety into a 'superpower'", "question_index": 11, "text": "But that's the thing. Because it's, like, your job...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. If anything, the opposite. I felt like I - and I've understood it more over the years because I think - I've heard a lot of actors talk about - and maybe that's because they're doing these big, dr"}
{"id": "1236564681", "date": "2024-03-08", "guest": "Emma Stone", "title": "How 'Poor Things' actor Emma Stone turns her anxiety into a 'superpower'", "question_index": 12, "text": "...It gives you permission. It makes it obligatory to be in the moment.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1236564681", "date": "2024-03-08", "guest": "Emma Stone", "title": "How 'Poor Things' actor Emma Stone turns her anxiety into a 'superpower'", "question_index": 13, "text": "It's like, you can't say, well, I can't control it 'cause I'm worried about the past. It's like, your job is to focus on now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes."}
{"id": "1236564681", "date": "2024-03-08", "guest": "Emma Stone", "title": "How 'Poor Things' actor Emma Stone turns her anxiety into a 'superpower'", "question_index": 14, "text": "So you've got a pass.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "1236564681", "date": "2024-03-08", "guest": "Emma Stone", "title": "How 'Poor Things' actor Emma Stone turns her anxiety into a 'superpower'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What a gift. Exactly. It's a productive use of it. And I - you know, I've told a lot of younger people that struggle with anxiety that in many ways I see it as kind of a superpower because I think tha"}
{"id": "1236564681", "date": "2024-03-08", "guest": "Emma Stone", "title": "How 'Poor Things' actor Emma Stone turns her anxiety into a 'superpower'", "question_index": 16, "text": "So you lobbied your parents when you were - what? - 11 or 12, to pressure them to homeschool you so you could focus on acting, and you prepared a presentation for - can you tell us what was in the presentation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You've got all of this energy within you. And that's really a gift."}
{"id": "1236564681", "date": "2024-03-08", "guest": "Emma Stone", "title": "How 'Poor Things' actor Emma Stone turns her anxiety into a 'superpower'", "question_index": 17, "text": "They bought the idea.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the first one was just about how homeschooling can be really beneficial and could be really helpful. And, you know, this was year 2000. And so there was kind of a - you know, a beginning of interne"}
{"id": "1236564681", "date": "2024-03-08", "guest": "Emma Stone", "title": "How 'Poor Things' actor Emma Stone turns her anxiety into a 'superpower'", "question_index": 18, "text": "Your parents sound like really cool people.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They did, which is also crazy, crazy stuff."}
{"id": "1236564681", "date": "2024-03-08", "guest": "Emma Stone", "title": "How 'Poor Things' actor Emma Stone turns her anxiety into a 'superpower'", "question_index": 19, "text": "I'm thinking your gut gave you really true and really false information.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They are. I mean, I - yeah, I know that none of this, obviously, would be possible without their support, especially at that age. I mean, it wasn't like I had graduated high school, and I said, OK, by"}
{"id": "1236564681", "date": "2024-03-08", "guest": "Emma Stone", "title": "How 'Poor Things' actor Emma Stone turns her anxiety into a 'superpower'", "question_index": 20, "text": "Well, 'cause it gave you really false information about the house burning down and all...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, the story of my life. I mean, you got to - this is what I talk about in therapy on a weekly basis."}
{"id": "1236564681", "date": "2024-03-08", "guest": "Emma Stone", "title": "How 'Poor Things' actor Emma Stone turns her anxiety into a 'superpower'", "question_index": 21, "text": "...The panic attacks about things that weren't really happening. And it gave you true information that your calling was to act and you should go audition.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1236564681", "date": "2024-03-08", "guest": "Emma Stone", "title": "How 'Poor Things' actor Emma Stone turns her anxiety into a 'superpower'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Oh, yeah, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know. It's a really - it's interesting because over the years, it's - I've been trying to understand that if it feels like my heart is racing and there's a fire inside of me, that might be false inf"}
{"id": "1236564681", "date": "2024-03-08", "guest": "Emma Stone", "title": "How 'Poor Things' actor Emma Stone turns her anxiety into a 'superpower'", "question_index": 23, "text": "What do you feel right before a shoot or right before walking on stage? And I'm thinking of \"Cabaret.\" You were in the Broadway revival of \"Cabaret\"...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it feels like intuition and anxiety both come from that same spot, so it's a tough one to work out."}
{"id": "1236564681", "date": "2024-03-08", "guest": "Emma Stone", "title": "How 'Poor Things' actor Emma Stone turns her anxiety into a 'superpower'", "question_index": 24, "text": "...In the role that Liza Minnelli made famous in the movie. So, like, right before you step on stage, are you feeling anxious or like I'm about to go to my safe place?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1236564681", "date": "2024-03-08", "guest": "Emma Stone", "title": "How 'Poor Things' actor Emma Stone turns her anxiety into a 'superpower'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Emma Stone, it's been so great to talk with you. Thank you so much, and good luck at the Oscars.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A combination, but that's actually my sort of sweet spot because I'm not trying to kill off the fears, and I'm not trying to just feel all confidence all the time or like I'm in a safe place. I think "}
{"id": "1238514552", "date": "2024-03-14", "guest": "Peter Pomerantsev", "title": "'How to Win an Information War' details fighting with \u2014 and against \u2014 propaganda", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. When it comes to counteracting contemporary propaganda, fact-checking doesn't stand a chance. My guest, Peter Pomerantsev, writes that in his new book. He goes on to say gutsy fact-checkers who sometimes, at great personal risk, strive to establish the truth, are ignored by millions of people who don't want to hear the truth. Worthy, well-researched journalism crumbles in the face of suspicion that the media are actually enemies of the people. That's one of the conclusion Pomerantsev has reached. He researches and writes about contemporary propaganda, including in the U.S., where he now lives. His new book, \"How To Win An Information War,\" is about the man he describes as the forgotten genius of propaganda - Sefton Delmer. During World War II, Delmer became head of special operations for the Political Warfare Executive. He ran propaganda operations for the British against the Hitler regime. He created radio shows broadcast into Germany designed to sound like shows hosted by Germans, and they were. They featured former German cabaret writers and stars who were now refugees in England. Pomerantsev grew up in a Jewish family in Ukraine, a Russian-speaking family. His father was arrested for distributing dissident literature. After his release, the family left. That was in 1978, when Pomerantsev was about nine months old. He grew up in England and went to Moscow as a journalist in 2000, and stayed for about 10 years, since 2014, when Russia invaded Crimea, he's been doing a lot of work in Ukraine, and in 2022, he co-founded The Reckoning Project, documenting Russian war crimes to prevent Russian propaganda from erasing them. Pomerantsev is now a senior fellow at Johns Hopkins University. He's also the author of the books \"Nothing Is True And Everything Is Possible\" and \"This Is Not Propaganda.\" Peter Pomerantsev, welcome to FRESH AIR. I want to start with an example of one of the broadcasts that Delmer Sefton did in his efforts to counteract German propaganda. Germans were supposed to be pure. Jazz was an example of something that was decadent. Some of the broadcasts that Delmer Sefton oversaw reported on moral and sexual depravity of German leaders in a way that veered on S&M porn. I want you to describe - let's get off to a lively start here.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1238514552", "date": "2024-03-14", "guest": "Peter Pomerantsev", "title": "'How to Win an Information War' details fighting with \u2014 and against \u2014 propaganda", "question_index": 1, "text": "I want you to describe one of your favorite broadcasts in that style in terms of how sexual decadence and moral depravity were used to discredit leaders of the Reich. And I should mention you have a transcript there that I actually can't read on NPR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1238514552", "date": "2024-03-14", "guest": "Peter Pomerantsev", "title": "'How to Win an Information War' details fighting with \u2014 and against \u2014 propaganda", "question_index": 2, "text": "It would be considered too explicit, even though the words aren't explicit, the descriptions are. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, really?"}
{"id": "1238514552", "date": "2024-03-14", "guest": "Peter Pomerantsev", "title": "'How to Win an Information War' details fighting with \u2014 and against \u2014 propaganda", "question_index": 3, "text": "Yes, I know.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my word."}
{"id": "1238514552", "date": "2024-03-14", "guest": "Peter Pomerantsev", "title": "'How to Win an Information War' details fighting with \u2014 and against \u2014 propaganda", "question_index": 4, "text": "Why did Sefton's crew use sexual depravity? Like, these acts were considered sexually depraved, and the Germans were supposed to be pure, especially the German leaders. So why did they use that in several sketches in - you know, that they broadcast?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There - I mean, there was one that - it wasn't only NPR. So people in Winston Churchill's cabinet, when they heard that the British government was essentially creating pornography to subvert the Nazis"}
{"id": "1238514552", "date": "2024-03-14", "guest": "Peter Pomerantsev", "title": "'How to Win an Information War' details fighting with \u2014 and against \u2014 propaganda", "question_index": 5, "text": "And how the Nazis...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's a lot of things going on. I mean, at a very simple level, it got listeners. You've got to understand this was being broadcast in 1941 at the peak of Hitler's power - yeah - where people are ei"}
{"id": "1238514552", "date": "2024-03-14", "guest": "Peter Pomerantsev", "title": "'How to Win an Information War' details fighting with \u2014 and against \u2014 propaganda", "question_index": 6, "text": "...Had a lot of lice in...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was always trying to..."}
{"id": "1238514552", "date": "2024-03-14", "guest": "Peter Pomerantsev", "title": "'How to Win an Information War' details fighting with \u2014 and against \u2014 propaganda", "question_index": 7, "text": "...The soldiers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1238514552", "date": "2024-03-14", "guest": "Peter Pomerantsev", "title": "'How to Win an Information War' details fighting with \u2014 and against \u2014 propaganda", "question_index": 8, "text": "They were lice-infested.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah..."}
{"id": "1238514552", "date": "2024-03-14", "guest": "Peter Pomerantsev", "title": "'How to Win an Information War' details fighting with \u2014 and against \u2014 propaganda", "question_index": 9, "text": "He thought you couldn't discredit the Germans with facts or appeal to their higher instincts. Why not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...He's trying to take - exactly. He's trying to, you know, if the Nazis wanted to sort of throw out everything impure onto the enemy, that was one of the main techniques of their propaganda, he was s"}
{"id": "1238514552", "date": "2024-03-14", "guest": "Peter Pomerantsev", "title": "'How to Win an Information War' details fighting with \u2014 and against \u2014 propaganda", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, give us an example of his philosophy of how you do that and an example of a broadcast that illustrates it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He thought facts were very important, actually. What he didn't believe in was preaching. So today, I think he would be very frustrated with sort of pro-democracy, liberal media that risks preaching to"}
{"id": "1238514552", "date": "2024-03-14", "guest": "Peter Pomerantsev", "title": "'How to Win an Information War' details fighting with \u2014 and against \u2014 propaganda", "question_index": 11, "text": "Can you give us an example about how the information he used - that was true - was twisted, in a way, to get the reaction he wanted from German soldiers or from German citizens in general?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So a lot of the broadcasts were meant for soldiers, directed at soldiers, and they talked about the lives of soldiers in a way and with a detail that that Nazi propaganda didn't. It talked about their"}
{"id": "1238514552", "date": "2024-03-14", "guest": "Peter Pomerantsev", "title": "'How to Win an Information War' details fighting with \u2014 and against \u2014 propaganda", "question_index": 12, "text": "Yeah. You mentioned one of the things he recommended to soldiers was faking illness. Delmer not only oversaw a broadcast, he also oversaw, like, pamphleting that was dropped by planes to soldiers. And there were rolling papers for tobacco. And instead of the rolling papers, he put in a message to soldiers. What did the message say and who did it say it was from?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One of the amusing-yet-unconfirmed anecdotes about the effectiveness of one of these broadcasts was - and the level of targeting is so interesting here. So the British knew that there was a submarine "}
{"id": "1238514552", "date": "2024-03-14", "guest": "Peter Pomerantsev", "title": "'How to Win an Information War' details fighting with \u2014 and against \u2014 propaganda", "question_index": 13, "text": "It's so interesting because he's right, that there wasn't that much known yet about traumatic stress and the trauma of war and post-traumatic stress disorder. I mean, that diagnosis hadn't even been invented yet. But the idea of like, therefore, fake illness and go home - that's really subverting the German cause. Do we have any idea how effective that campaign was of faking illness?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It wasn't just a message. Actually, like, inside your cigarette packet, you'd actually have this whole manual printed on this wafer-thin sort of cigarette papers. So it was actually, like, a - quite a"}
{"id": "1238514552", "date": "2024-03-14", "guest": "Peter Pomerantsev", "title": "'How to Win an Information War' details fighting with \u2014 and against \u2014 propaganda", "question_index": 14, "text": "Wait. Wait. They copied the manuals - oh, you mean because they wanted the British to fake illness?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Generally, when we're talking about effectiveness of media, it's hard. For that specific one, one of the sort of data points that you could use for its effectiveness was the Germans copied the manuals"}
{"id": "1238514552", "date": "2024-03-14", "guest": "Peter Pomerantsev", "title": "'How to Win an Information War' details fighting with \u2014 and against \u2014 propaganda", "question_index": 15, "text": "What was the revolutionary thing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So that's, you know, a sign that the Germans thought they were effective. Just to be clear - Delmer was always doing more than one thing, whenever he's doing anything. So these manuals were meant to g"}
{"id": "1238514552", "date": "2024-03-14", "guest": "Peter Pomerantsev", "title": "'How to Win an Information War' details fighting with \u2014 and against \u2014 propaganda", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, we need to take a short break here. So let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Peter Pomerantsev. His new book is called \"How To Win An Information War: The Propagandist Who Outwitted Hitler.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nazi propaganda. And it's very important to understand (inaudible) is always insisting that your individuality doesn't matter. The only community that matters is the community that the Nazis have crea"}
{"id": "1238514552", "date": "2024-03-14", "guest": "Peter Pomerantsev", "title": "'How to Win an Information War' details fighting with \u2014 and against \u2014 propaganda", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Peter Pomerantsev, author of the new book, \"How To Win An Information War: The Propagandist Who Outwitted Hitler,\" and that propagandist is named Sefton Delmer, and he headed a lot of propaganda operations in England during World War II to counteract Hitler's propaganda. Peter Pomerantsev is a researcher and writer who studies propaganda and has written other books about it. So let's continue our conversation. What do you think we can learn from Delmer Sefton? Because if you're fighting propaganda in America, if you're fighting conspiracy theories, if you're fighting the belief that Trump really won the election when all the evidence points to the fact that he lost the election and now he's running again for president, how do you counteract that without doing what Sefton did? I mean, Sefton used deception, and I don't think Americans who think - I don't think Americans who want to counteract conspiracy theories want to use deception to counteract them. But you're also saying at the same time that facts and the truth aren't very effective in counteracting propaganda. So where does that leave us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nazi propaganda. And it's very important to understand (inaudible) is always insisting that your individuality doesn't matter. The only community that matters is the community that the Nazis have crea"}
{"id": "1238514552", "date": "2024-03-14", "guest": "Peter Pomerantsev", "title": "'How to Win an Information War' details fighting with \u2014 and against \u2014 propaganda", "question_index": 18, "text": "You write that joining the Trump movement, joining MAGA, can give the illusion of status and a sense of supremacy to compensate for the lack of real agency. And I'd like you to explain what you mean.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Conspiracy theories are often related to a lack of a sense of agency. You feel that you can't change things yourself, so you look to a strongman leader to lead you through the muck. So you explain thi"}
{"id": "1238514552", "date": "2024-03-14", "guest": "Peter Pomerantsev", "title": "'How to Win an Information War' details fighting with \u2014 and against \u2014 propaganda", "question_index": 19, "text": "Let me reintroduce you again 'cause it's time for another break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Peter Pomerantsev, author of the new book \"How To Win An Information War: The Propagandist Who Outwitted Hitler.\" And Pomerantsev have researches and writes about propaganda, including during World War II, Russian propaganda and Putin, how Putin has used propaganda in Ukraine, and he's also been starting to write about propaganda in the U.S. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So one of the most important things that propaganda through the ages does is, especially in a chaotic world, give you a sense of a very simple identity. So whether that's true Germans, true Russians u"}
{"id": "1238514552", "date": "2024-03-14", "guest": "Peter Pomerantsev", "title": "'How to Win an Information War' details fighting with \u2014 and against \u2014 propaganda", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR, I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Peter Pomerantsev, who researches and writes about contemporary propaganda. His new book, \"How To Win An Information War,\" is about the man he describes as the forgotten genius of propaganda, Sefton Delmer. During World War II, Delmer became head of special operations for the Political Warfare Executive in England, and he ran propaganda operations for the British against the Hitler regime. Pomerantsev was born in Ukraine to a Ukrainian Jewish family. When he was 9 months old, the family moved to England. In 2000, he went to Moscow as a journalist and stayed there for around nine years. Since 2014, when Russia invaded Ukraine, he's been spending a lot of time in Ukraine studying propaganda there and what was happening during the war. And in 2022, he co-founded a project to document Russian war crimes in Ukraine in an attempt to prevent Russian propaganda from erasing those war crimes from the public mind. Let's talk about the work that you did in Moscow in the first decade of this century. This was the period when Putin was really becoming powerful. What were some of the things that you found that he used as an authoritarian leader to win or try to win over the minds of the Russian people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So one of the most important things that propaganda through the ages does is, especially in a chaotic world, give you a sense of a very simple identity. So whether that's true Germans, true Russians u"}
{"id": "1238514552", "date": "2024-03-14", "guest": "Peter Pomerantsev", "title": "'How to Win an Information War' details fighting with \u2014 and against \u2014 propaganda", "question_index": 21, "text": "Is there a specific campaign that you remember, a specific story that illustrates what you're saying?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a fascinating and, in retrospect, a demonic time to see things. I was in Russia between 2001 to 2010. And there's a great line from Tim Snyder, the Yale historian, that post-truth is just pre-f"}
{"id": "1238514552", "date": "2024-03-14", "guest": "Peter Pomerantsev", "title": "'How to Win an Information War' details fighting with \u2014 and against \u2014 propaganda", "question_index": 22, "text": "How did you see your job as a journalist reporting on all of this? And you were reporting for a British publication, not a Russian publication.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A very, very good example is, actually, elections in Russia. We're going to have a presidential election in Russia this month, in March. And everybody understands in Russia that the elections are rigg"}
{"id": "1238514552", "date": "2024-03-14", "guest": "Peter Pomerantsev", "title": "'How to Win an Information War' details fighting with \u2014 and against \u2014 propaganda", "question_index": 23, "text": "That is so strange. Did Trump participate in that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, not quite. My fate was a little bit different. I actually went to Russia, and I went to film school there. I was still very young. And then I worked for British documentary sort of projects in R"}
{"id": "1238514552", "date": "2024-03-14", "guest": "Peter Pomerantsev", "title": "'How to Win an Information War' details fighting with \u2014 and against \u2014 propaganda", "question_index": 24, "text": "Wow, really? Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, they had - so the way these things work is that, I think - I can't remember who owns the format, Anthem (ph) or Sony or one of these big companies. They sell it, they bring consultants over, who t"}
{"id": "1238514552", "date": "2024-03-14", "guest": "Peter Pomerantsev", "title": "'How to Win an Information War' details fighting with \u2014 and against \u2014 propaganda", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well, let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Peter Pomerantsev. His new book is called \"How To Win An Information War: The Propagandist Who Outwitted Hitler.\" Pomerantsev researches and writes about contemporary propaganda. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because nobody in Russia thinks you make money that way, you know? You don't make money by having great business ideas and developing them. You know, if you do that, you'll end up, you know, with your"}
{"id": "1238514552", "date": "2024-03-14", "guest": "Peter Pomerantsev", "title": "'How to Win an Information War' details fighting with \u2014 and against \u2014 propaganda", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Peter Pomerantsev. He researches and writes about contemporary propaganda. His new book goes a little deeper into the past. \"It's called How To Win An Information War: The Propagandist Who Outwitted Hitler.\" One of the projects that you're working on now - this is a project you co-founded in 2022 - is The Reckoning Project. And it's documenting war crimes, Russian war crimes and atrocities in Ukraine so that propaganda can't cover them up. And before we talk about how you're doing that, when I found out that this was the work you were doing, I thought about Holocaust deniers, about, in spite of all the documentation - like the documentaries, the photographs of what happened in the camps, the stories of so many survivors of what happened in the camps - there are many people who believe - many people around the world, including many people in the U.S., who believe the Holocaust never happened. So when you're talking about fighting propaganda, like, what message do you take from Holocaust deniers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because nobody in Russia thinks you make money that way, you know? You don't make money by having great business ideas and developing them. You know, if you do that, you'll end up, you know, with your"}
{"id": "1238514552", "date": "2024-03-14", "guest": "Peter Pomerantsev", "title": "'How to Win an Information War' details fighting with \u2014 and against \u2014 propaganda", "question_index": 27, "text": "So give us an example of a story that you found in Ukraine that you felt was very important to document and how you went about it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And not just even more recently than that. The horrors that happened in Yugoslavia are now being denied. So my colleagues - Janine di Giovanni, for example - who have much more experience of reporting"}
{"id": "1238514552", "date": "2024-03-14", "guest": "Peter Pomerantsev", "title": "'How to Win an Information War' details fighting with \u2014 and against \u2014 propaganda", "question_index": 28, "text": "And not just, like, rogue soldiers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There are - I'm trying to use language which doesn't make me sound cynical, which is what happens after you've been covering a war for two years - which are, dare I say, classic war crimes in the sens"}
{"id": "1238514552", "date": "2024-03-14", "guest": "Peter Pomerantsev", "title": "'How to Win an Information War' details fighting with \u2014 and against \u2014 propaganda", "question_index": 29, "text": "Turn them into Russians who believe in Putin.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. That shows systemic - then you can get - start getting into who's behind it. So actually, it's only now that we've been doing the project for a couple of years that our archivist who worked i"}
{"id": "1238514552", "date": "2024-03-14", "guest": "Peter Pomerantsev", "title": "'How to Win an Information War' details fighting with \u2014 and against \u2014 propaganda", "question_index": 30, "text": "Part of the Russian propaganda to Russian people about Ukraine to justify the invasion of Ukraine and the war is that the Ukrainian leader Zelenskyy in particular was a Nazi, which is absurd since Zelenskyy's Jewish. But that expanded to, like, all Ukrainians right now are really - they're Nazis. Do you see - would you like to see that be a war crime?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's more complicated than that - definitely believe in Putin. Everybody has to believe in Putin. That's. That is obviously a huge part of it. So it's more like a big family where the Russians a"}
{"id": "1238514552", "date": "2024-03-14", "guest": "Peter Pomerantsev", "title": "'How to Win an Information War' details fighting with \u2014 and against \u2014 propaganda", "question_index": 31, "text": "How effective do you think the propaganda that Ukrainians are Nazis and that Zelenskyy is a Nazi, how effective do you think that's been in Russia?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I think we have to be very, very careful. Speech itself - making that into a crime is really complicated for very good reasons to do with the First Amendment in the U.S. and, you know, Article 19 o"}
{"id": "1238514552", "date": "2024-03-14", "guest": "Peter Pomerantsev", "title": "'How to Win an Information War' details fighting with \u2014 and against \u2014 propaganda", "question_index": 32, "text": "Well, let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Peter Pomerantsev. His new book is called \"How To Win An Information War: The Propagandist Who Outwitted Hitler.\" Pomerantsev researches and writes about contemporary propaganda. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, going back to Sefton Delmer, and here I really agree with him, Delmer would say that, you know, propaganda just makes naked. It makes possible what was there already. And what is this propaganda"}
{"id": "1238514552", "date": "2024-03-14", "guest": "Peter Pomerantsev", "title": "'How to Win an Information War' details fighting with \u2014 and against \u2014 propaganda", "question_index": 33, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Peter Pomerantsev. He researches and writes about contemporary propaganda. His new book goes a little deeper into the past. It's called \"How To Win An Information War: The Propagandist Who Outwitted Hitler.\" Pomerantsev is also the co-founder of a project in Ukraine to document war crimes so that Russian propaganda can't erase those war crimes from the public mind. One of the things that we're seeing now in the U.S. and internationally is a lot of antisemitism and some of it - a lot of it in this moment has to do with Israel's bombardment and invasion of Gaza and the extreme circumstances that Gazans are living in now, and the tens of thousands of Gazans who have died. But I'm wondering what you're seeing in terms of anti-Jewish propaganda. And I don't even mean here the debate about Israel and Gaza and Hamas but, you know, the feeding into larger and more ancient conspiracy theories about Jews that seem to have resurfaced in the past few years.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, going back to Sefton Delmer, and here I really agree with him, Delmer would say that, you know, propaganda just makes naked. It makes possible what was there already. And what is this propaganda"}
{"id": "1238514552", "date": "2024-03-14", "guest": "Peter Pomerantsev", "title": "'How to Win an Information War' details fighting with \u2014 and against \u2014 propaganda", "question_index": 34, "text": "What's the point of playing - of doing it on both sides?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I mean, let's be - I mean, one thing that I've looked at a little bit is what Russia is up to in this conflict. And what's very interesting is how they're playing off both sides, you know? They're "}
{"id": "1238514552", "date": "2024-03-14", "guest": "Peter Pomerantsev", "title": "'How to Win an Information War' details fighting with \u2014 and against \u2014 propaganda", "question_index": 35, "text": "Since your family is originally from Ukraine, do you still have relatives there? And have they survived the war so far?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a really good question. They will have a long-term vision. Just stoke divisions, you know, keep Europe and America fighting amongst itself and get them to forget about Ukraine. That's kind of, li"}
{"id": "1238514552", "date": "2024-03-14", "guest": "Peter Pomerantsev", "title": "'How to Win an Information War' details fighting with \u2014 and against \u2014 propaganda", "question_index": 36, "text": "Do you know any Russians from the time that you spent in Russia from 2000 to nearly 2010? Do you know people who are now soldiers, like, Russian soldiers stationed in Ukraine? Do you know people who have left Russia, who were able to leave? I'm just wondering. Of the people who you know there, what kind of reactions are you getting to the war?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We're all losing people all the time. Friends - I haven't lost any relatives. Pretty much everyone knows someone or has someone close to them who's died. I think we're still in the - we're not even ne"}
{"id": "1238514552", "date": "2024-03-14", "guest": "Peter Pomerantsev", "title": "'How to Win an Information War' details fighting with \u2014 and against \u2014 propaganda", "question_index": 37, "text": "Well, Peter Pomerantsev, I want to thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Virtually everybody in my world actually started leaving after 2014. And then the last ones left in sort of '21. The people I know were warning about this for a long time, or many of the people I know"}
{"id": "1238514552", "date": "2024-03-14", "guest": "Peter Pomerantsev", "title": "'How to Win an Information War' details fighting with \u2014 and against \u2014 propaganda", "question_index": 38, "text": "Peter Pomerantsev is the author of the new book \"How To Win An Information War: The Propagandist Who Outwitted Hitler.\" If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, like three interviews from this week that featured people who are comics and actors - Jenny Slate, Julio Torres and Eugene Levy - check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at @NPRFreshAir. And to read about what's happening behind the scenes on our show, get recommendations from our producers of things to read, watch and listen to and find out what interviews are coming up, subscribe to our free newsletter. You'll find a link at whyy.org/freshair.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me on and listening to me."}
{"id": "1238514552", "date": "2024-03-14", "guest": "Peter Pomerantsev", "title": "'How to Win an Information War' details fighting with \u2014 and against \u2014 propaganda", "question_index": 39, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Ann Marie Baldonado, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Seth Kelley and Susan Nyakundi. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me on and listening to me."}
{"id": "1238550704", "date": "2024-03-15", "guest": "William Whitworth", "title": "Remembering longtime magazine editor William Whitworth", "question_index": 0, "text": "OK, thanks, David. I want to take a few minutes to remember magazine editor William Whitworth. As The New York Times obituary pointed out, he was a magazine editor who was revered within that world but little known outside it. He was revered in my home, too. I'll get to that in a moment. Bill died last Friday at the age of 87. He worked at The New Yorker from 1966 to 1980, first as a writer and later as an editor. Although he was asked to replace William Shawn, the longtime editor who ran The New Yorker, Shawn was not yet ready to retire. Instead, Bill accepted the position of editor in chief at The Atlantic, where he stayed for nearly 20 years until he retired in 1999. Among the writers he brought to the magazine was my husband, Francis Davis, who became a contributing editor, writing about jazz and other subjects. Bill started out as a jazz musician, a trumpet player, so Bill and Francis always had a lot to talk about beyond the piece they were working on. I met Bill through Francis and was lucky to get to know him a little at a couple of events, and the few times we all went out to a restaurant together. He was an NPR listener. I was surprised to read in the Times' obit that after Garrison Keillor wrote an article for The New Yorker about the Grand Ole Opry, Bill pushed him to do a Saturday night variety show patterned on the Opry, which led to \"A Prairie Home Companion.\" Bill often listened to FRESH AIR. He'd email me when he especially liked an interview, or when we played a recording in between segments and he wanted to know who the musicians were, or when he felt it necessary to correct my grammar. He was self-effacing and didn't like to talk about himself to the media. But when the great film critic Pauline Kael died in 2001, I'd hoped that Bill would be willing to talk about what it was like to edit her. I was grateful that he agreed. I want to play one of the stories he told. And as you listen, keep in mind that when William Shawn ran The New Yorker, he thought it best to avoid language relating to sex and certain body parts.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Terry doesn't usually host on Fridays, but for this next segment, she wanted to be here. So welcome, Terry. I'll leave it to you to explain why."}
{"id": "1238550704", "date": "2024-03-15", "guest": "William Whitworth", "title": "Remembering longtime magazine editor William Whitworth", "question_index": 1, "text": "You edited Pauline Kael for the last five or so years that you were at The New Yorker, from about '75 to 1980. Were there any conflicts editorially with her? I mean, Pauline Kael, I think, used much saltier language than The New Yorker was usually comfortable with.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Terry doesn't usually host on Fridays, but for this next segment, she wanted to be here. So welcome, Terry. I'll leave it to you to explain why."}
{"id": "1238550704", "date": "2024-03-15", "guest": "William Whitworth", "title": "Remembering longtime magazine editor William Whitworth", "question_index": 2, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She did. And that was a continuing problem that that put me, uncomfortably, between Pauline and William Shawn, both of whom I admired so deeply. I guess I have to set up the process, in a way. When we"}
{"id": "1238550704", "date": "2024-03-15", "guest": "William Whitworth", "title": "Remembering longtime magazine editor William Whitworth", "question_index": 3, "text": "Well, William Shawn felt that the crudeness hurt. You know, it was so crude, it hurt. Did you feel that her language was crude in this? Did you feel that he was overreacting or that she was being too crude?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then, finally, No. 7. The only performer who has a dynamic presence, as distinguished from acting crazy, is Veronica Cartwright. She has the kind of talent that Nicholson has when he isn't thinkin"}
{"id": "1238550704", "date": "2024-03-15", "guest": "William Whitworth", "title": "Remembering longtime magazine editor William Whitworth", "question_index": 4, "text": "How did she take to this type of toning down?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, actually, I think he had a good point here. And it was not - it's not just crudeness. It's whether the writing is - whether she's losing a little control of the writing and seeming to try too ha"}
{"id": "1238550704", "date": "2024-03-15", "guest": "William Whitworth", "title": "Remembering longtime magazine editor William Whitworth", "question_index": 5, "text": "Well, Bill Whitworth, thank you so much for talking with us about Pauline Kael.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, sometimes it absolutely infuriated her. And she just would just draw the line and say she wouldn't go any further. Of course, since mostly I was able to keep them in separate rooms, they could b"}
{"id": "1238550704", "date": "2024-03-15", "guest": "William Whitworth", "title": "Remembering longtime magazine editor William Whitworth", "question_index": 6, "text": "My interview with Bill Whitworth was recorded in 2001. He died last Friday at the age of 87. He will be missed by many great writers. One of them, Ian Frazier, wrote, throughout publishing you could not find anybody more beloved. Back to you, David. You have a review coming up. What are you going to review?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK, Terry, thank you."}
{"id": "1238550704", "date": "2024-03-15", "guest": "William Whitworth", "title": "Remembering longtime magazine editor William Whitworth", "question_index": 7, "text": "I'll be listening.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm going to review the new MGM+ documentary \"In Restless Dreams: The Music Of Paul Simon.\""}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. As a heads up to our listeners, the introduction I'm about to give describes a sexual assault. My guest is Christine Blasey Ford. She testified at Brett Kavanaugh's confirmation hearing that he sexually assaulted her.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 1, "text": "In Blasey Ford's testimony, she accused him of being drunk at a party when she was 15 and he was 17, and they each attended separate prep schools in the Washington Beltway. She said that he'd pushed her into a bedroom, climbed on top of her, pinned her down and tried to take off her clothes. She said she believed he was going to rape her. To keep her quiet, he put his hand over her mouth, making it so hard to breathe she was afraid he'd accidentally suffocate and kill her. When she said at the confirmation hearing that testifying terrified her, she had reason to be terrified - the death threats against her and her children forced her and her family to hide out in hotels and other places with 24-hour security. She still needs security. Now she has a new memoir called \"One Way Back,\" in which she writes about why she came forward and her perspective on the confirmation hearing. She also writes about who she is outside of her public image. Christine Blasey Ford is a professor of psychology in a collaborative program between Stanford University and Palo Alto University. She's also a clinical professor and consulting biostatistician at the Stanford University School of Medicine. Christine Blasey Ford, welcome to FRESH AIR. How did you write your book without retraumatizing yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I am here today not because I want to be. I am terrified. I am here because I believe it is my civic duty to tell you what happened to me while Brett Kavanaugh and I were in high school."}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 2, "text": "You didn't think of your experience with Brett Kavanaugh as sexual assault until you were in couples therapy with your husband, and told the therapist that story. What was the therapist's reaction?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did retraumatize myself, having to go back through everything and relive it. And I tried to write a book a couple of years after the testimony and just really wasn't able to engage in the material. "}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 3, "text": "How did that change the story that you told yourself to start thinking of the incident as sexual assault, as opposed to just an attack? I don't mean merely an attack, but it just - it's a different kind of attack.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The therapists usually try not to be overly reactive, but I could tell that it made an impact on him, and he referred me to, like, a trauma-focused individual therapist."}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 4, "text": "On the night of the alleged assault, you say you thought of the evening as a success when you got home. In what way was it a success?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. It didn't even hit home in the therapy as a sexual assault, even though that's how it was discussed. I kept using the word attack past the therapy session, and then a lawyer explained to me why"}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 5, "text": "What were you afraid of if they did find out? You were 15 at the time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a success in that I got away. And I - you know, my escape was successful. And most importantly, I got past my parents without them knowing. So I made it into my room and thought, great, no one'"}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 6, "text": "On the night that you say Kavanaugh assaulted you, did you just think it was like, oh, well, boys will be boys? Were you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was afraid I wouldn't be able to go out anymore. And I'd be reprimanded for putting myself in that situation, I guess. Or, you know, it's hard to think back what I was truly afraid of, but probably "}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 7, "text": "...Like, dismissive about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no."}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 8, "text": "The Kavanaugh hearing was traumatic for you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I knew that it was a definite boundary violation and a super-scary event, and that they were really drunk and took things way too far. I knew that it was not OK what they were doing."}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 9, "text": "And, of course, there was the assault itself. Do you think that the hearing was even more traumatizing than the assault?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 10, "text": "And also your credibility was seriously challenged. So what was your reaction to that? Were you expecting that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Definitely. The hearing and the aftermath of the hearing were more difficult for me than the original assault that I had tucked away and moved on from. Once I moved to California, I had really moved o"}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 11, "text": "When you say a hotel life, you and your family were basically hiding out in hotels because there were so many threats against you and your home.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I expected a little bit of pushback in the hearing. And the hearing itself wasn't particularly difficult. I mean, it was the difficulty that I expected it to be. Some of the questions towards the end "}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 12, "text": "And just to clarify, was that because you had to go to Washington or was that because you were hiding out? I don't want to get anything wrong.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, we had to leave when the Washington Post article was published on the 16 of September, and I didn't testify until more than a week later. So we had been in a hotel since the 16."}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 13, "text": "Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was because of the threats. So..."}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 14, "text": "Why didn't that succeed? How were you brave enough to go on in spite of those threats?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And our house being surrounded. And initially it was just a fear of media, but it became more serious than that once people were trying to threaten me with the - I'm inferring that their intent was"}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 15, "text": "Yeah, and from two different perspectives, I suppose. One was this would be good for all victims of sexual assault and terms of sexual assault. And if this is true, it would be good to keep Kavanaugh off of the Supreme Court. And the other perspective was just thinking of you. Like, this might really hurt you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was very late that I decided that I would go through with it, because I was going back and forth about not wanting to go to D.C., seeing if there were any other options with the committee, an"}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 16, "text": "With Anita Hill.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And the main thing is I just didn't want to be on TV. That was my biggest fear at the time - was I don't want to be - I was picturing the 1991 hearing and thinking, there's just no way I could."}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 17, "text": "You didn't find out that the hearing was going to be televised live until you were basically in the hallway on the way to the room. Do I have that right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Be sitting in that - yes. And I was just thinking, there's no way I could sit in that big room with all of those senators questioning me. I just - like, especially with cameras on and thought there"}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 18, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. I mean, apparently they told me. They said that they told me, but I guess I was minimizing that and not focusing on it when they were telling me. And as we were walking down the hall, I said, t"}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 19, "text": "How did you finally decide that you were going to testify?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Continue forward and get - make it to the room and then walk through the room and get to the chair. So I didn't really have the luxury of panicking like I would have if they had told me in advance."}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 20, "text": "And how did you decide once you got there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we were living in the second hotel. We had been discovered in the first hotel and had to relocate. So I remember being in the second hotel and my lawyers encouraging me to just come to D.C., and"}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 21, "text": "You weren't expecting all these attempts to discredit you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Once I got there, there was a positive moment where all the different lawyers who I had met with over the summer and had called to try to get some assistance were all there. And it was just really nic"}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 22, "text": "Once you decided to go forward and your lawyers agreed that you should go forward, the lawyers wanted to prep you to ask you questions you'd likely be asked by the senators on the Judiciary Committee and help you prepare answers. You didn't want to do that. That's the kind of process most people go through before appearing before a committee like that, especially when it's so high-stakes. Why didn't you want to do it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was told that there would be backlash. And part of why I wrote the book is because when people tell you that, it's so abstract. You know, when people say, you're - people are going to give you"}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 23, "text": "What was the impact on you of telling the story so many times to the lawyers, to the press at the hearing, the lie detector test?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was living in a hotel with my kids, and so I didn't really have the time to sit around and wonder what the questions might be. We didn't have any inkling of what the questions would be. So the"}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 24, "text": "What made that more stressful?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The lie detector test was interesting because up until then, I had told a couple of lawyers over the phone just the general outline of it, and I had told my representative the full story. That was the"}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Christine Blasey Ford. Her new memoir is called \"One Way Back.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "than he had anticipated."}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded last Wednesday with Christine Blasey Ford. In her new memoir, \"One Way Back,\" she writes about why she decided to testify at Brett Kavanaugh's confirmation hearing and accused him of sexually assaulting her at a party when she was 15 and he was 17. She describes the hearing from her point of view and describes the death threats against her. She also writes about her life before she became a public figure, including her obsession with surfing. When you were considering testifying, your lawyers said to you, you know, it can be therapeutic if you do this. So you went to your therapist and asked her, like, would it be therapeutic if I testified? And the therapist just laughed. What did the therapist tell you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "than he had anticipated."}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 27, "text": "Just hearing those words, yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. We both had a little bit of a light moment there at the idea that sharing your trauma with the government..."}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 28, "text": "During the Judiciary Committee hearing, you were questioned on behalf of the Republicans by Rachel Mitchell. She's the prosecutor they hired to represent them. What did you make of her questions? Were there any questions that she asked that struck you as particularly problematic for you in one way or another?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's not - right? - like, the audience that typically people would want to seek out when they're sharing something like that."}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 29, "text": "She was trying to show that you weren't being completely honest about your fear of flying. And you write about your fear of flying in the book, although you did fly when you really needed to get someplace, when you really wanted to get someplace. But you were initially reluctant to fly to Washington to meet with your lawyers, and you were reluctant to fly to Washington, you know, for the Judiciary Committee. So she was trying to point out, hey; you've flown in all these places, yet you say you have a fear of flying. The theory, I think, was by your legal team that she was trying to discredit you by saying, clearly, you're not being really forthcoming on this. You're not being completely honest about your fear of flying if you've flown to so many places. And your reaction was to think, why are we talking about this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thought she was very on point for the first two or three sections. It felt like it was a four-quarter football game to me, and I felt like for the first three quarters of it, the questions were appr"}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 30, "text": "Are there things you would have liked to say at the hearing but you were afraid to say, or things you wanted to say but you weren't given a chance to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I didn't really get it. I assumed that the audience and the senators understood that some people don't love to fly, and some people even take medication for long flights or employ other coping s"}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 31, "text": "Let's take a break here and then we'll continue the story. If you're just joining us, my guest is Christine Blasey Ford. Her new memoir is called \"One Way Back.\" I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I guess the main regret is that I didn't know that that was the only time I would ever speak to them. I thought, well, of course they're going to have follow-up questions and want to know more d"}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 32, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded last Wednesday with Christine Blasey Ford. In her new memoir \"One Way Back,\" she writes about why she decided to testify at Brett Kavanaugh's confirmation hearing and accuse him of sexually assaulting her at a party when she was 15 and he was 17. She describes the hearing from her point of view and the death threats against her. She also writes about her life before she became a public figure, including her obsession with surfing. After the Judiciary Committee hearing, Democrat Chris Coons and Republican Jeff Flake agreed that there would be an FBI investigation, 'cause there was a lot of pressure to have an FBI investigation into your allegations against Brett Kavanaugh - and into Brett Kavanaugh. But one of the limitations was that the FBI investigation could only last a week. And you describe, you know, hiding out in a hotel with security. And every so often, you would open the door expecting, like, the FBI would be in the hallway ready to, like, knock on your door. And they never showed up. They never talked to you, and you were very disappointed. What were you hoping to tell them that you hadn't already told the Judiciary Committee?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I guess the main regret is that I didn't know that that was the only time I would ever speak to them. I thought, well, of course they're going to have follow-up questions and want to know more d"}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 33, "text": "You said you got your papers together. In those papers were records of your therapy session when you were in couples therapy, and you mentioned to the therapist about Brett Kavanaugh attacking you. And the therapist said, that's sexual assault and you need an individual therapist. So that was in the records from years earlier, and you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had my paperwork that I thought that I might have an opportunity to share, even before that time. So I was organized and had my timeline. I had my list of people that they could speak with so "}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 34, "text": "But your lawyers didn't really want you to submit those papers as evidence. Why not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's an allusion to that in that record. And then also in the record with the individual therapist, there's also reference to it in that record."}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 35, "text": "I think part of their concern was not everybody understands therapy and that you would be considered mentally ill - mentally unstable by a lot of people after they heard that you'd been in therapy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "At that point, they did not, because at that point, they felt like the train was arriving at the station - that there was - this was only going to hurt me if I did that. And I was - I just - I could n"}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 36, "text": "Yeah. Because the Republicans were basically saying that you could have easily confused somebody else with Brett Kavanaugh. There's no evidence that the person who assaulted you - if, in fact, you were assaulted - was really Brett Kavanaugh and not somebody you confused with him. So how are you going to fight against that with therapy records? Did you expect to be put on trial yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I think that was one of the concerns, is that they'll - it'll just be something else for them to say about me. And they said, at this point, if there's not a videotape of him, they're not going t"}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 37, "text": "So many other people like you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not to the extent that I was. I didn't expect, like, the smear - hit media, although now I see that happening to other people, and I just recognize it so easily. And I..."}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 38, "text": "There could be a very...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Do my best to reach out to those people to say, hey; I know that's terrible and (inaudible). And it's a terrible feeling to have these orchestrated media hits on you..."}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 39, "text": "...Large support group of people...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...But once..."}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 40, "text": "...Who've gone through similar things that you did of getting smeared and getting death threats...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Right?"}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 41, "text": "...And having to hide out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 42, "text": "I'm sure one of the things disturbing for you is that - like, your father didn't smear you or anything, but he didn't show up. Your parents didn't show up at the confirmation hearings. And I forget which publication said that your father had been in contact with Brett Kavanaugh's father, because they belong to the same country club. And you asked your father straight out, like, did you write a letter to Brett Kavanaugh's father? And your father said, no. And then you finally got him to admit that - well, he didn't write a letter. He wrote an email.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. It now seems like it's commonplace for anyone that speaks to the government. And that's too bad, because I really want to encourage people to come forward, or to be just involved in civic engag"}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 43, "text": "And I'll quote the email because you quote it in the book. So your father wrote to Brett Kavanaugh's father, (reading) I'm glad Brett got confirmed, so we can all put this behind us now. How do you explain that to yourself, knowing that you still can't put this behind you? You're still getting death threats. You still need security, and it's been years. So that was so incredibly incorrect.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 44, "text": "Why not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. That was - it was really disappointing. And I love my father very much. And we have very different views on things. And when we did talk about that - and that was about a year after I testified"}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 45, "text": "If your parents were there, would that have made you more self-conscious? Or were you just trying to protect them from seeing their daughter having to go through this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It seems to be, like, a thing that you're supposed to have, like, a specific audience on television behind you. I was very overwhelmed with just myself being at the hearing. And when I heard that my"}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 46, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so we actually - and when we got back to California and heard that people were critiquing the fact that I didn't have my parents sitting behind me, we had a little bit of a laugh about that. And"}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 47, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're supposed to, like, worry, are they are they OK? Like, you know, where are they going to sit? Are they comfortable? So it really hadn't occurred to me. My mom isn't in the best of health and the"}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 48, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Christine Blasey Ford. Her new memoir is called \"One Way Back.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...From my testimony. So to me, no matter what happened to me, which is a bunch of complicated, difficult things, doesn't really matter that much if it helped so many people."}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 49, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded last Wednesday with Christine Blasey Ford. In her new memoir, \"One Way Back,\" she writes about why she decided to testify at Brett Kavanaugh's confirmation hearing and accuse him of sexually assaulting her. She describes the hearing from her point of view and the death threats against her, and she also writes about her life before she became a public figure. One of the hardest parts of trying to recover from the hearing and from all the death threats is that you didn't feel like you could be yourself. And there are a lot of things you couldn't do now for security reasons. And people wanted you to be your former self, but you didn't feel like that person anymore.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...From my testimony. So to me, no matter what happened to me, which is a bunch of complicated, difficult things, doesn't really matter that much if it helped so many people."}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 50, "text": "Where are you now in that grieving process?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, I was definitely grieving - not over the outcome. The outcome is something I had to detach from before I even testified, that the outcome is going to be whatever it is. But the process was so d"}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 51, "text": "I've been trying to stay away from the specifics of the alleged assault because I don't want to trigger you. But still, like, you're talking about that whole experience. And you'll be talking about it with a lot of other people, too, because your book was just published and people will be reading the book. What is it like for you to return to that conversation and to have to talk about it again?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm much better. But if I had written this book a couple of years ago, it wouldn't have been as - it would have been a lot different than what it sounds like now."}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 52, "text": "So you did not succeed in derailing Brett Kavanaugh's confirmation, but you did succeed in raising awareness of a sexual assault. A gazillion women got in touch with you. Many women just felt so affirmed by hearing you talk and by hearing you have the courage to talk. Has it been helpful for you to get that kind of response from women who gave you the support and who praised you for coming forward?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, there were days writing the book where I would get completely triggered and have a fight or flight response and not sleep for - very well for a few days. And then I would be exhausted and I'd ca"}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 53, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. And it was women and men. So women and men from all 50 states and 42 countries, and just the sheer volume of the outpouring was incredible. I didn't get all of those letters for a while. A"}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 54, "text": "Thank you so much for talking with us. I know some of this must be hard for you, but I really appreciate you doing it, and I appreciate you writing the book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's just not a feasible task. I was sort of going in reverse age order for a while, and I'm trying to figure out a way to honor them. And this book is one of those ways. The book is dedicated to them"}
{"id": "1239378828", "date": "2024-03-19", "guest": "Christine Blasey Ford", "title": "For Christine Blasey Ford, the fallout of the Kavanaugh hearing is ongoing", "question_index": 55, "text": "Christine Blasey Ford's new memoir is titled \"One Way Back.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I appreciate the opportunity, and even if it's hard, I do need to keep talking about it. So thanks for providing this venue."}
{"id": "1239854106", "date": "2024-03-21", "guest": "Sebastian Rotella", "title": "How the Chinese mafia came to control much of the illicit marijuana trade in the U.S.", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. When states started legalizing marijuana, one of the hopes was that it would cut down on crime because people could buy it legally from licensed sellers. But in some states, including Oklahoma, legalization inadvertently helped organized crime, especially the Chinese mafia, exploit new opportunities. Chinese organized crime has come to dominate much of the illicit marijuana trade in the nation, from California to Maine, according to a new series of investigative reports by a team of four journalists from two nonprofit news organizations, ProPublica and the Oklahoma-based The Frontier. My guest, Sebastian Rotella, is the lead reporter on this series. For several years, he's been investigating Chinese organized crime in the U.S., Europe and Latin America. He's reported on the connection between Chinese organized crime and China's authoritarian government and how that relationship is helping China expand its influence and power around the world. Rotella worked for almost 23 years for the Los Angeles Times before joining ProPublica in 2010. He covers international security issues, including terrorism, intelligence, organized crime, human rights, and migration. Part one of the new series focuses on Chinese organized crime's grip on America's illegal marijuana market, which has led to increases in other crimes, including money laundering. Part one was published earlier this month. Part two emphasizes the ties between the Chinese mafia and the Chinese government and will be published tomorrow. Sebastian Rotella, welcome back to FRESH AIR. I thought - and I think a lot of people thought that legal marijuana was supposed to cut down on crime. So how did legalizing it actually help organized crime expand in a state like Oklahoma?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1239854106", "date": "2024-03-21", "guest": "Sebastian Rotella", "title": "How the Chinese mafia came to control much of the illicit marijuana trade in the U.S.", "question_index": 1, "text": "I think it would be helpful to know. What do you have to do legally - and let's use Oklahoma as an example. What do you have to do legally to grow marijuana there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks much, Terry. It's a pleasure to talk to you. I think what happened was that you have this patchwork across the nation of laws as different states have legalized - still a federal law that makes"}
{"id": "1239854106", "date": "2024-03-21", "guest": "Sebastian Rotella", "title": "How the Chinese mafia came to control much of the illicit marijuana trade in the U.S.", "question_index": 2, "text": "So organized crime gets people to front for them and get a license, and then organized crime can move in and grow. And it looks legal.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oklahoma is one of the more wide-open legal frameworks, but basically there it's a medical marijuana law. So you can cultivate marijuana, theoretically, for medicinal purposes. You have to have - be a"}
{"id": "1239854106", "date": "2024-03-21", "guest": "Sebastian Rotella", "title": "How the Chinese mafia came to control much of the illicit marijuana trade in the U.S.", "question_index": 3, "text": "Different states have different laws. And I'm talking about states that have legalized marijuana in one form or another. So how has the Chinese mafia exploited the fact that there are so many different laws in different states?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it has the facade of legality. And what's happening is then taking advantage of the fact that you can get a lot more money, say, if you're selling the dope in New York or on the East Coast. There'"}
{"id": "1239854106", "date": "2024-03-21", "guest": "Sebastian Rotella", "title": "How the Chinese mafia came to control much of the illicit marijuana trade in the U.S.", "question_index": 4, "text": "Yeah. You mentioned that a lot of the California illicit industry moves to Oklahoma. And, like, why Oklahoma? You mentioned that land is cheap there. Is that the main reason why Oklahoma has become such a big state for the illicit growth of marijuana?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, these are remarkably agile, mobile, sophisticated groups with lots of resources, partly because the backdrop to this is the way Chinese organized crime has come to dominate money laundering "}
{"id": "1239854106", "date": "2024-03-21", "guest": "Sebastian Rotella", "title": "How the Chinese mafia came to control much of the illicit marijuana trade in the U.S.", "question_index": 5, "text": "Does the fact that different states have different laws make it harder to enforce the laws?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's partly because the land is cheap. It's also because that medical marijuana law they passed made it particularly easy just to move in, set up and grow. In other states, there are limits on how muc"}
{"id": "1239854106", "date": "2024-03-21", "guest": "Sebastian Rotella", "title": "How the Chinese mafia came to control much of the illicit marijuana trade in the U.S.", "question_index": 6, "text": "In order to actually grow the weed, a lot of workers are exploited. You compare some of the workers growing this weed for the Chinese mafia to indentured servants. Many of them are immigrants. Can you describe the labor force for this illicit industry?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it does. And it also makes it harder because at the federal level, though it is, you know, illegal under federal law to traffic among states, there is some reticence, we're told - some reluctance"}
{"id": "1239854106", "date": "2024-03-21", "guest": "Sebastian Rotella", "title": "How the Chinese mafia came to control much of the illicit marijuana trade in the U.S.", "question_index": 7, "text": "And in terms of working conditions, you describe how law enforcement busted one of these illegal grows, and they thought they were stepping in mud, but it was human excrement. And that's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. I mean, these are thousands of workers, most of them themselves Chinese immigrants, many of whom come across the Mexican border. I interviewed one who, you know - it's classic odyssey, coming fr"}
{"id": "1239854106", "date": "2024-03-21", "guest": "Sebastian Rotella", "title": "How the Chinese mafia came to control much of the illicit marijuana trade in the U.S.", "question_index": 8, "text": "Yeah, that's an example of the working conditions in some of these places.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's correct."}
{"id": "1239854106", "date": "2024-03-21", "guest": "Sebastian Rotella", "title": "How the Chinese mafia came to control much of the illicit marijuana trade in the U.S.", "question_index": 9, "text": "How did the Chinese mafia become the organized crime group that dominated the illegal marijuana growing industry in the U.S.?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. And I've seen - you know, and talking to people who have worked on the farms and seeing some videos, you have cases where you have people sleeping basically, you know, on blankets on the"}
{"id": "1239854106", "date": "2024-03-21", "guest": "Sebastian Rotella", "title": "How the Chinese mafia came to control much of the illicit marijuana trade in the U.S.", "question_index": 10, "text": "Let's talk about the organized part of organized crime. There's a loose confederation of Chinese criminal groups through the nation. How do they coordinate with each other? I think most Americans know something about the Mafia in America. We've seen the movies, you know. So whatever the movies tell us, whether that's true or not, that's - for most of us, that's our conception of organized crime in America. But, you know, how do the Chinese mafia organize? Tell us more about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think, as I said, it has to do with this evolution where Chinese organized crime in the past 20 years, where law enforcement was focused on other things - and these are secretive, disciplined, sophi"}
{"id": "1239854106", "date": "2024-03-21", "guest": "Sebastian Rotella", "title": "How the Chinese mafia came to control much of the illicit marijuana trade in the U.S.", "question_index": 11, "text": "Let's take a short break here. My guest is Sebastian Rotella, an investigative reporter for ProPublica. He's the lead reporter on a new series about how the Chinese mafia has come to dominate much of the nation's illicit marijuana trade, from California to Maine, and how the mafia is connected to the Chinese government. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, this is a particularly complex and challenging arena where even people in federal law enforcement will tell me that there's still struggling to understand it and get a grip on it. And they j"}
{"id": "1239854106", "date": "2024-03-21", "guest": "Sebastian Rotella", "title": "How the Chinese mafia came to control much of the illicit marijuana trade in the U.S.", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Sebastian Rotella, a senior reporter at ProPublica. He's the lead reporter on a new series about how the Chinese mafia has come to dominate the illicit marijuana trade in the U.S., the Mafia's connections to the Chinese government, and how that relationship is helping the Chinese government expand its influence and power around the world. The series is a partnership between ProPublica and another nonprofit news organization, The Frontier, which is based in Oklahoma, where the Chinese mafia dominates the state's illicit marijuana industry. Part one was published earlier this month. Part two will be published tomorrow. I feel like I have to ask you here - how do you write about this, how do you expose all of this without fearing that you're going to cause, like, anti-Chinese sentiments? - because we see how that was exploited, like, during the Trump administration, you know, accusing China of starting the spread of COVID. And Chinese people really felt endangered in America. So how do you write about this without - preventing that kind of fear and phobia from being fed by this information? And also, since you've described how many Chinese immigrants come to the U.S. through Latin America and then across the Mexican border and some of them end up growing illicit marijuana - they're exploited, but they're part of that industry. So, again, how do you write about all this without kind of playing on people's fears of immigration and of Chinese people in particular, of, you know, fears about the Mexican border?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, this is a particularly complex and challenging arena where even people in federal law enforcement will tell me that there's still struggling to understand it and get a grip on it. And they j"}
{"id": "1239854106", "date": "2024-03-21", "guest": "Sebastian Rotella", "title": "How the Chinese mafia came to control much of the illicit marijuana trade in the U.S.", "question_index": 13, "text": "So you describe how there seems to be a mutually beneficial relationship between China's government and Chinese organized crime in America - that the government helps fund the organized crime and helps protect it in America. But they also get a share of the profits and are using those profits to expand its power and influence around the world, in part between the international infrastructure program - the Belt and Road project, in which, you know, China is helping fund infrastructure projects in developing countries, hoping to expand its influence there and ingratiate itself to the people there. So can you talk more about that relationship and how China is taking advantage of the profits?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's a very good question, and it's one of my top priorities. And I - when I first started writing about these issues, I really focused first on what's called transnational repression, which"}
{"id": "1239854106", "date": "2024-03-21", "guest": "Sebastian Rotella", "title": "How the Chinese mafia came to control much of the illicit marijuana trade in the U.S.", "question_index": 14, "text": "Let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Sebastian Rotella, an investigative reporter for ProPublica. He's the lead reporter on a new series about how the Chinese mafia has come to dominate much of the nation's illicit marijuana trade from California to Maine and how the Chinese government is profiting. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "On the Belt and Road Initiative, there have been public allegations - and there are also cases that indicate in different places, including in Asia and the Pacific - that people in Chinese organized c"}
{"id": "1239854106", "date": "2024-03-21", "guest": "Sebastian Rotella", "title": "How the Chinese mafia came to control much of the illicit marijuana trade in the U.S.", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Sebastian Rotella, a senior reporter at ProPublica. He's the lead reporter on a new series about how the Chinese mafia has come to dominate the illicit marijuana trade in America and the mafia's connections to the Chinese government, and how that relationship is helping the Chinese government expand its influence and power around the world. The series is a partnership between ProPublica and another nonprofit news organization, The Frontier, which is based in Oklahoma, where the Chinese mafia dominates the state's illicit marijuana industry. So the Chinese mafia is not only involved in the marijuana industry, the illicit marijuana industry in the U.S., they're involved with money laundering from Latin America, drug money from fentanyl. Is that right, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "On the Belt and Road Initiative, there have been public allegations - and there are also cases that indicate in different places, including in Asia and the Pacific - that people in Chinese organized c"}
{"id": "1239854106", "date": "2024-03-21", "guest": "Sebastian Rotella", "title": "How the Chinese mafia came to control much of the illicit marijuana trade in the U.S.", "question_index": 16, "text": "Can you give us the basics of the system that Chinese organized crime uses to launder money?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. What the DEA and Southern Command and other agencies in a lot of cases show is that Chinese organized crime in the past 10 years pretty much became the dominant money launderer in the Am"}
{"id": "1239854106", "date": "2024-03-21", "guest": "Sebastian Rotella", "title": "How the Chinese mafia came to control much of the illicit marijuana trade in the U.S.", "question_index": 17, "text": "One of the many things that really surprised me in your articles is that there are environmental issues involved with the Chinese mafia now because they're sometimes stealing water and electricity to grow marijuana. The indoor grows require electricity, and all of it requires water. How do they steal it? And what's the environmental impact of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What you basically have is these two market forces that Chinese money launderers in the United States and in Latin America bring together, which is Mexican cartels making huge amounts of dollars on th"}
{"id": "1239854106", "date": "2024-03-21", "guest": "Sebastian Rotella", "title": "How the Chinese mafia came to control much of the illicit marijuana trade in the U.S.", "question_index": 18, "text": "How is this huge illicit marijuana industry - the legal marijuana industry in America?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You had in California in particular, you know, where there were a lot of indoor grows - you had these groups that were very sophisticated and had sort of a piratical approach to this, where they would"}
{"id": "1239854106", "date": "2024-03-21", "guest": "Sebastian Rotella", "title": "How the Chinese mafia came to control much of the illicit marijuana trade in the U.S.", "question_index": 19, "text": "Because the Chinese mafia has some connections to the Chinese government, you refer briefly to how the Chinese government uses the mafia to help spy on Chinese immigrants, including Chinese students. Can you talk a little bit about how that works and the - and whether the people being spied on know that they are, if they have any clue about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, that's the classic problem that the legal industry is confronting is that when you have a black market which is avoiding taxes and not providing revenue to the government, which was th"}
{"id": "1239854106", "date": "2024-03-21", "guest": "Sebastian Rotella", "title": "How the Chinese mafia came to control much of the illicit marijuana trade in the U.S.", "question_index": 20, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Sebastian Rotella, an investigative reporter for ProPublica. He's the lead reporter on a new series about how the Chinese mafia has come to dominate much of the nation's illicit marijuana trade from California to Maine, and how the mafia is connected to the Chinese government. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think there are two separate things going on. I think Chinese organized crime is used to spy on diaspora communities, that is immigrant communities, people who have come to stay. And that, I think, "}
{"id": "1239854106", "date": "2024-03-21", "guest": "Sebastian Rotella", "title": "How the Chinese mafia came to control much of the illicit marijuana trade in the U.S.", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Sebastian Rotella, a senior reporter at ProPublica. He's the lead reporter on a new series about how the Chinese mafia has come to dominate the illicit marijuana trade in the U.S., the mafia's connections to the Chinese government and how that relationship is helping the Chinese government expand its influence and power around the world. The series is a partnership between ProPublica and another nonprofit news organization, The Frontier, which is based in Oklahoma, where the Chinese mafia dominates the state's illicit marijuana industry. Part one was published earlier this month. Part two will be published tomorrow. So one of the people who you write about, who's facing trial now, reminded me of the character in \"Breaking Bad,\" Gus. And Gus is played by, you know, was played by Giancarlo Esposito. And he ran the meth lab that the main characters worked in. And he was connected to, you know, organized crime. And, like the person in your series, he ran a chain of restaurants, highly respected chain. And he was a respected person in the community, you know, seen as a very good and responsible businessman and ingratiated himself to politicians. This is the same kind of profile as one of the people who you write about. That, like, really struck me. And I'm wondering if it struck you and if you ever feel like you are living in a crime movie or a crime TV series.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think there are two separate things going on. I think Chinese organized crime is used to spy on diaspora communities, that is immigrant communities, people who have come to stay. And that, I think, "}
{"id": "1239854106", "date": "2024-03-21", "guest": "Sebastian Rotella", "title": "How the Chinese mafia came to control much of the illicit marijuana trade in the U.S.", "question_index": 22, "text": "You know, you write that some U.S. officials argue that Chinese authorities have decided, as a matter of policy, to foster the drug trade in the Americas in order to destabilize the region and spread corruption, addiction and death here. Do you think this could be a kind of warfare?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that the thing, having covered this kind of thing for a long time, that reality often offers up the best stories, you know. And I think the profile you're talking about is something I've seen "}
{"id": "1239854106", "date": "2024-03-21", "guest": "Sebastian Rotella", "title": "How the Chinese mafia came to control much of the illicit marijuana trade in the U.S.", "question_index": 23, "text": "There's a lot of people who want to be very conscious that they're buying clothing or food that isn't exploiting workers. And I'm wondering if you think that people who buy marijuana from the underground market might want to think a little bit about who's being exploited?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, that's a debate, I think, within the U.S. national security community. And I think - I've talked to a number of people who I think are serious, you know, high level, both current and former,"}
{"id": "1239854106", "date": "2024-03-21", "guest": "Sebastian Rotella", "title": "How the Chinese mafia came to control much of the illicit marijuana trade in the U.S.", "question_index": 24, "text": "I think it was back when you were writing, when you were reporting for the LA Times and you were covering the Mexican border, that one of your border reports inspired two songs on Bruce Springsteen's album, \"The Ghost Of Tom Joad,\" which was released in 1995. Which two songs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that's a very good point. I think the conditions that are - that have been described to us and that have been documented in places like California and Oklahoma, but also in - overseas, in Euro"}
{"id": "1239854106", "date": "2024-03-21", "guest": "Sebastian Rotella", "title": "How the Chinese mafia came to control much of the illicit marijuana trade in the U.S.", "question_index": 25, "text": "Oh, that sounds great, a lasting relationship.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And one thing led to another. And it turned out that he had been reading my coverage of the Mexican border and had, you know, especially in the case of that song, \"Balboa Park,\" had really sort of p"}
{"id": "1239854106", "date": "2024-03-21", "guest": "Sebastian Rotella", "title": "How the Chinese mafia came to control much of the illicit marijuana trade in the U.S.", "question_index": 26, "text": "Sebastian Rotella, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We remained in touch. And I saw him at several of his concerts in Europe. And it was striking that he was so interested in those issues as I was, you know. And they're issues about, you know - which y"}
{"id": "1239854106", "date": "2024-03-21", "guest": "Sebastian Rotella", "title": "How the Chinese mafia came to control much of the illicit marijuana trade in the U.S.", "question_index": 27, "text": "Sebastian Rotella is a senior reporter at ProPublica. He's the lead reporter on a new series of articles investigating how the Chinese mafia came to dominate much of the illicit marijuana trade in the U.S. The series is a collaboration between ProPublica and another nonprofit news organization, The Frontier. Part one was published earlier this month. Part two will be published tomorrow. So here's one of the two Bruce Springsteen songs inspired by Rotella's earlier reporting on the Mexican border. This is \"Balboa Park.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's been my pleasure. Thank you very much."}
{"id": "1239854106", "date": "2024-03-21", "guest": "Sebastian Rotella", "title": "How the Chinese mafia came to control much of the illicit marijuana trade in the U.S.", "question_index": 28, "text": "That's Bruce Springsteen from his 1995 album, \"The Ghost Of Tom Joad.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) He lay his blanket underneath the freeway as the evening sky grew dark. Took a sniff of toncho from his Coke can and headed through Balboa Park, where the men in the Mercedes come nightly to"}
{"id": "1241592102", "date": "2024-03-29", "guest": "Dom Flemons", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens and the Carolina Chocolate Drops put a modern twist on tradition", "question_index": 0, "text": "Rhiannon Giddens, Justin Robinson, Dom Flemons, welcome to FRESH AIR. Let me start by asking you to perform a song that's also featured on the new CD. Can you do \"Your Baby Ain't Sweet Like Mine\" for us?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's \"Texas Hold 'Em\" from Beyonce's new country album, featuring Rhiannon Giddens on banjo and viola. Now let's go back to 2010, when Giddens was with the Carolina Chocolate Drops, playing music in"}
{"id": "1241592102", "date": "2024-03-29", "guest": "Dom Flemons", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens and the Carolina Chocolate Drops put a modern twist on tradition", "question_index": 1, "text": "Fantastic. That's the Carolina Chocolate Drops, a song that they're performing for us. But that's a song they also do on their new CD, \"Genuine Negro Jig.\" And who chose that song and why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Everybody talking about their sweetie nowadays. I got the one with the sweetest ways. Your baby may roll a jelly fine. Nobody's baby can roll it like mine. Your baby ain't sweet like mine. S"}
{"id": "1241592102", "date": "2024-03-29", "guest": "Dom Flemons", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens and the Carolina Chocolate Drops put a modern twist on tradition", "question_index": 2, "text": "Now, Rhiannon, you're a great fiddler. You play banjo. But you were featured very prominently on kazoo on that. Was it hard for you at first to take the kazoo seriously as a genuine instrument?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, that was a song that I chose. That was a piece that was originally recorded by a fellow named Papa Charlie Jackson, who was a six-string banjo player out of New Orleans. And I just really liked th"}
{"id": "1241592102", "date": "2024-03-29", "guest": "Dom Flemons", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens and the Carolina Chocolate Drops put a modern twist on tradition", "question_index": 3, "text": "String bands are usually considered a white Southern tradition, and you're a band of African American musicians. And you've found a Black string band tradition that you feel part of. But did you fall in love with this music before you knew that there was a Black string band tradition?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I didn't really think of it as a serious instrument until, like, Dom brought it in, and he was playing it on some tunes that he was doing. And then there's a whole tradition of jug-band music wh"}
{"id": "1241592102", "date": "2024-03-29", "guest": "Dom Flemons", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens and the Carolina Chocolate Drops put a modern twist on tradition", "question_index": 4, "text": "What did you fall in love with about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1241592102", "date": "2024-03-29", "guest": "Dom Flemons", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens and the Carolina Chocolate Drops put a modern twist on tradition", "question_index": 5, "text": "So discovering this music and falling in love with it without knowing there was an African American tradition, did you feel like maybe you weren't supposed to like it, you know, maybe you would never fit in with it, maybe there wouldn't be a place for you or people would think you were odd to gravitate toward the music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I fell in love with the rhythm. I was a contra dancer and square dancer, and I just was seduced by the banjo, the rhythm of the clawhammer banjo. That just really pulled me in. And then I found "}
{"id": "1241592102", "date": "2024-03-29", "guest": "Dom Flemons", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens and the Carolina Chocolate Drops put a modern twist on tradition", "question_index": 6, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, definitely the odd thing. That's a definite just because they're - any Black person who's involved in a folk music scene anywhere knows that they're - it's either they've been just the one of th"}
{"id": "1241592102", "date": "2024-03-29", "guest": "Dom Flemons", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens and the Carolina Chocolate Drops put a modern twist on tradition", "question_index": 7, "text": "How come you were playing that kind of music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I was sort of used to it 'cause I was - after I graduated from college, I really got into, like, Scottish music. So I was always getting, you know, so, you know, how come you're playing this kin"}
{"id": "1241592102", "date": "2024-03-29", "guest": "Dom Flemons", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens and the Carolina Chocolate Drops put a modern twist on tradition", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, you were already used to not being cool, too, 'cause, I mean, you sang opera before doing this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I just liked it. Yeah, I mean, there's really nothing more to it than that."}
{"id": "1241592102", "date": "2024-03-29", "guest": "Dom Flemons", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens and the Carolina Chocolate Drops put a modern twist on tradition", "question_index": 9, "text": "Pretty quick way to not be cool.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1241592102", "date": "2024-03-29", "guest": "Dom Flemons", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens and the Carolina Chocolate Drops put a modern twist on tradition", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry got you."}
{"id": "1241592102", "date": "2024-03-29", "guest": "Dom Flemons", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens and the Carolina Chocolate Drops put a modern twist on tradition", "question_index": 11, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's true. That's true."}
{"id": "1241592102", "date": "2024-03-29", "guest": "Dom Flemons", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens and the Carolina Chocolate Drops put a modern twist on tradition", "question_index": 12, "text": "Did your parents have associations with this music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1241592102", "date": "2024-03-29", "guest": "Dom Flemons", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens and the Carolina Chocolate Drops put a modern twist on tradition", "question_index": 13, "text": "Yeah. So you all met at this Black Banjo Gathering, a gathering of Black banjo players. And so was that a revelation to you - that there was this big community? Spread out, maybe, but there was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And even me - I didn't really get into the Black string band music until I went to the Black Banjo Gathering, which we all went to and kind of had just, you know, a life-changing experience. But, you "}
{"id": "1241592102", "date": "2024-03-29", "guest": "Dom Flemons", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens and the Carolina Chocolate Drops put a modern twist on tradition", "question_index": 14, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1241592102", "date": "2024-03-29", "guest": "Dom Flemons", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens and the Carolina Chocolate Drops put a modern twist on tradition", "question_index": 15, "text": "I'd like to ask you to perform another song that's also featured on the new CD, and the song is \"Trouble In Your Mind.\" So before you play it for us, tell us why you chose it and what you love about the song.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2010 interview with the Carolina Chocolate Drops. They played string band and jug band music of the 1920s and '30s, carrying on the tradition of the Black "}
{"id": "1241592102", "date": "2024-03-29", "guest": "Dom Flemons", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens and the Carolina Chocolate Drops put a modern twist on tradition", "question_index": 16, "text": "OK, let's hear it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this is one that Justin was playing that I reminded him one day at a jam that he played it. And it's a piece from an album called \"Music From the Lost Provinces\" put out by Old Hat Records. And "}
{"id": "1241592102", "date": "2024-03-29", "guest": "Dom Flemons", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens and the Carolina Chocolate Drops put a modern twist on tradition", "question_index": 17, "text": "That's great. That's the Carolina Chocolate Drops performing a song that's also featured on their new CD. And the new CD is called \"Genuine Negro Jig.\" So when we left off, we were talking about how you discovered, like, the African American tradition in string bands, and you met an African American fiddler who's in his 90s now named Joe Thompson.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I wished I had a nickel. I wished I had a dime. I wish I had me a pretty girl. You know I'd call her mine. Don't get trouble in your mind. Don't get trouble in your mind. Don't get trouble i"}
{"id": "1241592102", "date": "2024-03-29", "guest": "Dom Flemons", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens and the Carolina Chocolate Drops put a modern twist on tradition", "question_index": 18, "text": "And did he teach you certain things on fiddle that you didn't know or hadn't heard before?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1241592102", "date": "2024-03-29", "guest": "Dom Flemons", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens and the Carolina Chocolate Drops put a modern twist on tradition", "question_index": 19, "text": "Rhiannon, would you give us an example of what was really different from what he taught - about what he taught you compared to what you had known before?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, Lord, yeah. Joe Thompson is the guy that you were mentioning. He's 91. He's been playing since he was 6 or 7 years old. And he learned from his father, and his father learned from his father. So i"}
{"id": "1241592102", "date": "2024-03-29", "guest": "Dom Flemons", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens and the Carolina Chocolate Drops put a modern twist on tradition", "question_index": 20, "text": "Justin, is there anything you could talk about that you learned from Joe Thompson on fiddle?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, a lot of times you tend to hear that with hillbilly performers more in, like, the style of, like, Grandpa Jones or Uncle Dave Macon generally. But even that Tennessee style, that's taken to an e"}
{"id": "1241592102", "date": "2024-03-29", "guest": "Dom Flemons", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens and the Carolina Chocolate Drops put a modern twist on tradition", "question_index": 21, "text": "Can you play us an example of what you're talking about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's a lot of slang."}
{"id": "1241592102", "date": "2024-03-29", "guest": "Dom Flemons", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens and the Carolina Chocolate Drops put a modern twist on tradition", "question_index": 22, "text": "What makes that the double shuffle? Is it the speed or the harmony?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I'll play you the double shuffle."}
{"id": "1241592102", "date": "2024-03-29", "guest": "Dom Flemons", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens and the Carolina Chocolate Drops put a modern twist on tradition", "question_index": 23, "text": "Part of the tricky aspect of string band music is that part of its roots are in minstrel shows, part of its roots are in blackface. And so it gets really kind of complicated when you go back to the early history of that music. So I wonder how - what was - what it's been like for you to negotiate that aspect of the music and to deal with separating the music itself from some of the stereotypes that were foisted on the musicians who played it.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University. Let's get back to Terry's 2010 interview with the Carolina Chocolate Drops, a group who saw itself as part "}
{"id": "1241592102", "date": "2024-03-29", "guest": "Dom Flemons", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens and the Carolina Chocolate Drops put a modern twist on tradition", "question_index": 24, "text": "Well, you know, we're talking about rescuing music from the past, but you're also playing music from the present as well as original songs. And I think we should get to that a little bit. Although you're doing this contemporary music in the spirit of the string band style. So, Rhiannon, onto a song that you do on the new CD, and this is a song that I want you to talk about. I want you to talk about the original version and how you heard it and why you do it. And it's \"Hit \u2019Em Up Style.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that's been - I think that's been something in the African American community that's been - it's not something that we've done very much of, is looking back, you know? It's really been a forward p"}
{"id": "1241592102", "date": "2024-03-29", "guest": "Dom Flemons", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens and the Carolina Chocolate Drops put a modern twist on tradition", "question_index": 25, "text": "And who did the original?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. \"Hit \u2019Em Up Style\" is - well, it was just all over the radio, and every time it came on, I would just, like, jam in my car to it. It just was very catchy and had a great chorus and, you know, be"}
{"id": "1241592102", "date": "2024-03-29", "guest": "Dom Flemons", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens and the Carolina Chocolate Drops put a modern twist on tradition", "question_index": 26, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Blu Cantrell..."}
{"id": "1241592102", "date": "2024-03-29", "guest": "Dom Flemons", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens and the Carolina Chocolate Drops put a modern twist on tradition", "question_index": 27, "text": "OK. So let's hear this from the CD. This is from the Carolina Chocolate Drops' new CD, \"Genuine Negro Jig.\" And this is Rhiannon Giddens singing lead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Was the original singer. Yeah."}
{"id": "1241592102", "date": "2024-03-29", "guest": "Dom Flemons", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens and the Carolina Chocolate Drops put a modern twist on tradition", "question_index": 28, "text": "So that's Rhiannon Giddens singing from the new Carolina Chocolate Drops CD, \"Genuine Negro Jig.\" Nicely done. I really like that a lot. And Rhiannon, what you're playing on fiddle, it's this, like, drone style that I think is really interesting. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) While he was scheming, I was beaming in his beamer just beaming. Can't believe that I caught my man cheating. So I found another way to make him pay for it all. So I went to Neiman-Marcus on"}
{"id": "1241592102", "date": "2024-03-29", "guest": "Dom Flemons", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens and the Carolina Chocolate Drops put a modern twist on tradition", "question_index": 29, "text": "But is that drone really old timey or is that a more contemporary kind of thing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's just sort of kind of old timey - you know, old timey hip-hop, I suppose."}
{"id": "1241592102", "date": "2024-03-29", "guest": "Dom Flemons", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens and the Carolina Chocolate Drops put a modern twist on tradition", "question_index": 30, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no, that's very old timey, the double stopping, you know, that kind of rhythmic bowing, it's all old timey. What makes it contemporary is the minor key..."}
{"id": "1241592102", "date": "2024-03-29", "guest": "Dom Flemons", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens and the Carolina Chocolate Drops put a modern twist on tradition", "question_index": 31, "text": "So how did you learn that drone style? Maybe you could just play a little bit of that drone and talk about it a little bit.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know, because there's not a lot of minor stuff in those tunes. And - well, I mean, there are some, the ones that we think of as old, you know, like, that are in the public sort of ear, are not "}
{"id": "1241592102", "date": "2024-03-29", "guest": "Dom Flemons", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens and the Carolina Chocolate Drops put a modern twist on tradition", "question_index": 32, "text": "Yeah, compare that to what you did on \"Hit 'Em Up Style.\" Do a little of that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, gosh. I mean, just from playing. (Playing fiddle). And that's just, like, one of the first old-time tunes I knew. And so it wasn't much of a leap to take that tune to the \"Hit 'Em Up Style\" tune. "}
{"id": "1241592102", "date": "2024-03-29", "guest": "Dom Flemons", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens and the Carolina Chocolate Drops put a modern twist on tradition", "question_index": 33, "text": "Nice. Now, were you classically trained on fiddle, on violin?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, gosh. I mean, just from playing. (Playing fiddle). And that's just, like, one of the first old-time tunes I knew. And so it wasn't much of a leap to take that tune to the \"Hit 'Em Up Style\" tune. "}
{"id": "1241592102", "date": "2024-03-29", "guest": "Dom Flemons", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens and the Carolina Chocolate Drops put a modern twist on tradition", "question_index": 34, "text": "Just voice. Yeah, so we heard you sing on \"Hit 'Em Up Style.\" Now, you started out singing opera.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, good lord, no. No, no, no, just voice."}
{"id": "1241592102", "date": "2024-03-29", "guest": "Dom Flemons", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens and the Carolina Chocolate Drops put a modern twist on tradition", "question_index": 35, "text": "So can we hear a little bit of your opera voice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1241592102", "date": "2024-03-29", "guest": "Dom Flemons", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens and the Carolina Chocolate Drops put a modern twist on tradition", "question_index": 36, "text": "Very nice. What was that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I'd have warmed up if I'd known you were going to ask this. But let me see what I can - (Singing) the trees on the mountains are cold and bare. The summer just vanished and left them there like "}
{"id": "1241592102", "date": "2024-03-29", "guest": "Dom Flemons", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens and the Carolina Chocolate Drops put a modern twist on tradition", "question_index": 37, "text": "Right. So did you have to find a different voice after leaving opera for folk music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's in honor of the music that we play. That's from the opera called \"Susannah,\" which is set in Tennessee. And that was the composer's sort of mountain ballad but, you know, classically, I would s"}
{"id": "1241592102", "date": "2024-03-29", "guest": "Dom Flemons", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens and the Carolina Chocolate Drops put a modern twist on tradition", "question_index": 38, "text": "Is it easier to sing in a folk style than an opera style? Does it just take less effort?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. I mean, I was lucky in that I didn't start off when I was a kid singing opera. I sang, like, you know, contemporary folk music with my dad and my sister and my mom. But I had to find my classic"}
{"id": "1241592102", "date": "2024-03-29", "guest": "Dom Flemons", "title": "Rhiannon Giddens and the Carolina Chocolate Drops put a modern twist on tradition", "question_index": 39, "text": "So I want to thank you all for talking with us. It's really been great. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I'm a little out of practice. But, you know, you got to give up something."}
{"id": "1242170517", "date": "2024-04-02", "guest": "Harold Koplewicz", "title": "'Our kids are not OK,' child psychiatrist Harold Koplewicz says", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. There are so many reasons for children to be anxious today beyond all the standard childhood problems. There's the setbacks from the COVID lockdown, mass shootings in schools, feelings they're not measuring up to the great lives they see represented on social media, fears about the whole planet being in jeopardy. It's hardly unusual for parents to be unsure how to handle their child's anxiety, depression, learning problems, anger, tantrums. And it can be difficult for parents to evaluate whether their child should see a therapist or take medication. My guest, child psychiatrist Harold Koplewicz, has dealt with these issues with many children and their parents. And there have been times he's been confounded about issues his own children faced. He's the founding president of the Child Mind Institute. Its stated mission is transforming the lives of children and families struggling with mental health and learning disorders by giving them the help they need to thrive. The institute also conducts related research. From 1997 to 2009, he was the first director of the NYU Child Study Center. Koplewicz recently stepped down from his 25-year tenure as editor-in-chief of the Journal of Child and Adolescent Psychopharmacology. His latest book is titled \"Scaffold Parenting: Raising Resilient, Self-Reliant And Secure Kids In An Age Of Anxiety.\" Dr. Harold Koplewicz, welcome to FRESH AIR. What are some of the problems and anxieties you're seeing now that you can connect to outside problems, like the COVID lockdown and its lingering aftereffects? How are you seeing that manifest in the children's anxieties that you're seeing?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1242170517", "date": "2024-04-02", "guest": "Harold Koplewicz", "title": "'Our kids are not OK,' child psychiatrist Harold Koplewicz says", "question_index": 1, "text": "The average child isn't necessarily, like, watching cable news or reading the newspaper. But you pick up a lot of this on social media. And it's also just in the air. Like, everybody's talking about these issues, like, environmental catastrophe, you know, political divisions. Is this the end of democracy? Is the planet burning? I mean, you're just - it's just in the air now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think our kids are not OK. And unfortunately, they weren't doing very well before COVID. But COVID has had a negative effect on all children. Children with mental health disorders and kids who"}
{"id": "1242170517", "date": "2024-04-02", "guest": "Harold Koplewicz", "title": "'Our kids are not OK,' child psychiatrist Harold Koplewicz says", "question_index": 2, "text": "Wait. So is the point of this to figure out, is there a - like, a biological diagnosis you can make? Does the cohort of people who have, like, depression or anxiety or whatever share certain biological markers? Is that the point?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, there's something dramatically changed between 2010 and 2018. So the numbers start to jump when we started looking at children's mental health. There were higher rates of visits to eme"}
{"id": "1242170517", "date": "2024-04-02", "guest": "Harold Koplewicz", "title": "'Our kids are not OK,' child psychiatrist Harold Koplewicz says", "question_index": 3, "text": "All the kids in the study?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That would be the point. The real trick is, can you tell the difference between one atypical child and another? Not the difference between a typical developing child and someone who may have a mental "}
{"id": "1242170517", "date": "2024-04-02", "guest": "Harold Koplewicz", "title": "'Our kids are not OK,' child psychiatrist Harold Koplewicz says", "question_index": 4, "text": "Why do you think that is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no. Just a large percentage of them. And we start defining that as problematic internet usage. Not only are you using it a lot, but when you force them to stop, they get distressed. It almost "}
{"id": "1242170517", "date": "2024-04-02", "guest": "Harold Koplewicz", "title": "'Our kids are not OK,' child psychiatrist Harold Koplewicz says", "question_index": 5, "text": "So if you think that social media can be very harmful to certain children, how would you suggest parents try to limit their time on social media? That's something that is really hard to do.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's a very good question. Why? Our guess is that for these kids, someone who has depression, they're already socially more isolated than the average person, and they start losing their skill se"}
{"id": "1242170517", "date": "2024-04-02", "guest": "Harold Koplewicz", "title": "'Our kids are not OK,' child psychiatrist Harold Koplewicz says", "question_index": 6, "text": "I want to talk with you a little bit about suicide since you brought it up. And I want to ask you first - just in terms of our show, we always give warnings when we're going to be talking about suicide. And we always give the suicide prevention hotline number, the idea being that hearing talk about suicide can almost be encouraging to someone who has had suicidal ideation. So do you think that's helpful?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it is challenging, but I think it's very doable. We also have some good data. We know that parents who are using the internet in a, you know, problematic way are more likely to have kids that "}
{"id": "1242170517", "date": "2024-04-02", "guest": "Harold Koplewicz", "title": "'Our kids are not OK,' child psychiatrist Harold Koplewicz says", "question_index": 7, "text": "A child comes into your office, let's say a teenager comes into your office. You think that the possibility of this teenager attempting suicide is real. What do you do to try to prevent that from happening?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it's important to recognize that even if it's a small percentage, to give people that information - that lifeline is very important - and also to let them know that they're not alone. So"}
{"id": "1242170517", "date": "2024-04-02", "guest": "Harold Koplewicz", "title": "'Our kids are not OK,' child psychiatrist Harold Koplewicz says", "question_index": 8, "text": "So I just want to pause here and give the national Suicide and Crisis hotline number. And this is the number to call or to text. It's 988, so it's a simple number. Just three numbers, 988, to either call or text the national Suicide and Crisis hotline. So if you are having thoughts of suicide, please get some help. Well, let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Harold Koplewicz and he is a child psychiatrist, the founding president of the Child Mind Institute. His books include \"Scaffold Parenting: Raising Resilient, Self-Reliant, And Secure Kids In An Age Of Anxiety.\" We have to take a short break here, and we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it really depends on how serious they are about the attempt. Do they have a plan? Have they been thinking about it a long time? Have they stopped doing their usual pleasurable experiences? They "}
{"id": "1242170517", "date": "2024-04-02", "guest": "Harold Koplewicz", "title": "'Our kids are not OK,' child psychiatrist Harold Koplewicz says", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Dr. Harold Koplewicz. He is a child psychiatrist, he's the founding president of the Child Mind Institute, and his books include \"Scaffold Parenting: Raising Resilient, Self-Reliant, And Secure Kids In An Age Of Anxiety.\" You specialize in ADHD - attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder. Why don't you define what the symptoms are and how to recognize it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it really depends on how serious they are about the attempt. Do they have a plan? Have they been thinking about it a long time? Have they stopped doing their usual pleasurable experiences? They "}
{"id": "1242170517", "date": "2024-04-02", "guest": "Harold Koplewicz", "title": "'Our kids are not OK,' child psychiatrist Harold Koplewicz says", "question_index": 10, "text": "I think this is one of the problems in which brain imaging is starting to be used - fMRIs, where you can see, like, which parts of the brain light up in different situations and different thoughts. How are fMRIs being used in ADHD?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it's a challenge for lots of people to think about it because they think, oh, aren't we all hyperactive at some time? But the difference here is a deficit in attention toward what's normal developm"}
{"id": "1242170517", "date": "2024-04-02", "guest": "Harold Koplewicz", "title": "'Our kids are not OK,' child psychiatrist Harold Koplewicz says", "question_index": 11, "text": "So in a study like the fMRI study that you were referring to, how do you know whether the brain is reflecting the behavior or whether the behavior is predetermined by the brain? Do you know what I mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. It's the holy grail for us to find that objective test. One of the things we've discovered at the Child Mind Institute is that the way your brain connects to itself while a child's at rest turn"}
{"id": "1242170517", "date": "2024-04-02", "guest": "Harold Koplewicz", "title": "'Our kids are not OK,' child psychiatrist Harold Koplewicz says", "question_index": 12, "text": "It's, like, if I move my left arm - if I say, I'm going to move my left arm right now, and I'm doing it with intent, it's going to register on an fMRI, probably. But it's not like I have a disorder that's moving my left arm. It's, like, I've decided to behave this way, and it's registering in my brain.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Well, it's..."}
{"id": "1242170517", "date": "2024-04-02", "guest": "Harold Koplewicz", "title": "'Our kids are not OK,' child psychiatrist Harold Koplewicz says", "question_index": 13, "text": "Oh, that's really interesting. So has this affected your treatment at all?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, you know, let's think about this for a second. This is exactly where the field of research in functional MRI has gone to. You know, they used to give a trigger to a kid. You know, pay attention to"}
{"id": "1242170517", "date": "2024-04-02", "guest": "Harold Koplewicz", "title": "'Our kids are not OK,' child psychiatrist Harold Koplewicz says", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So we're not there yet. You know, it's not ready for prime time. I wish it - you know, I could say, oh, we're going to give everyone EEGs, because they're only 60 bucks, and an MRI is 500, and we foun"}
{"id": "1242170517", "date": "2024-04-02", "guest": "Harold Koplewicz", "title": "'Our kids are not OK,' child psychiatrist Harold Koplewicz says", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well, we need to take another break here, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Dr. Harold Koplewicz. He's a child psychiatrist. He's the founding president of the Child Mind Institute. And his books include \"Scaffold Parenting: Raising Resilient, Self-Reliant And Secure Kids In An Age Of Anxiety.\" We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You take a pill and your kid - your teacher's much nicer. That really is absolutely amazing. And they said, yeah. You know, you're 8 years old. OK."}
{"id": "1242170517", "date": "2024-04-02", "guest": "Harold Koplewicz", "title": "'Our kids are not OK,' child psychiatrist Harold Koplewicz says", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Dr. Harold Koplewicz. He's a child psychiatrist and the founding president of the Child Mind Institute. His books include \"Scaffold Parenting: Raising Resilient, Self-Reliant, And Secure Kids In An Age Of Anxiety.\" Your middle son has dyslexia. No one realized it at first. How did you discover what it was? Because this is, I assume, one of the issues that you treat as a child psychiatrist.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You take a pill and your kid - your teacher's much nicer. That really is absolutely amazing. And they said, yeah. You know, you're 8 years old. OK."}
{"id": "1242170517", "date": "2024-04-02", "guest": "Harold Koplewicz", "title": "'Our kids are not OK,' child psychiatrist Harold Koplewicz says", "question_index": 17, "text": "Which was?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Well, I think dyslexia has very often been put into another category until about the last 25 years, so that it was something educational experts did and not necessarily child psychiatrists. And"}
{"id": "1242170517", "date": "2024-04-02", "guest": "Harold Koplewicz", "title": "'Our kids are not OK,' child psychiatrist Harold Koplewicz says", "question_index": 18, "text": "I'm going to stop you. What do you mean by that, that your brain thinks you're learning a foreign language?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it turns out that a multisensory approach to learning how to read, teaching kids the sounds of the language, brother sounds, what your lips look like, and there was a program called Lindamood-Be"}
{"id": "1242170517", "date": "2024-04-02", "guest": "Harold Koplewicz", "title": "'Our kids are not OK,' child psychiatrist Harold Koplewicz says", "question_index": 19, "text": "We do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When we learn a foreign language, we use both sides of our brain. When we're learning..."}
{"id": "1242170517", "date": "2024-04-02", "guest": "Harold Koplewicz", "title": "'Our kids are not OK,' child psychiatrist Harold Koplewicz says", "question_index": 20, "text": ". I hadn't heard that before.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1242170517", "date": "2024-04-02", "guest": "Harold Koplewicz", "title": "'Our kids are not OK,' child psychiatrist Harold Koplewicz says", "question_index": 21, "text": "You know, I used to think that dyslexia was a problem with, like, reversing words, so you'd have to read slowly 'cause words would get reversed in your mind, but it's much more profound than that. Can you give us, like, the latest understanding of what dyslexia is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So when we're learning our native language, we activate one side of the brain, and kids with dyslexia underactivate that brain. And so when you teach them a new way of learning, it's like teach"}
{"id": "1242170517", "date": "2024-04-02", "guest": "Harold Koplewicz", "title": "'Our kids are not OK,' child psychiatrist Harold Koplewicz says", "question_index": 22, "text": "So let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Doctor Harold Koplewicz. He's a child psychiatrist, author of the book \"Scaffold Parenting: Raising Resilient, Self-Reliant And Secure Kids In An Age of Anxiety\" and founding president of the Child Mind Institute. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. So that's a myth, you know, the d, the b. What it really is, first of all, it's a brain-based disorder, and there's two major symptoms. One is alphabet recognition, being able to look at the A a"}
{"id": "1242170517", "date": "2024-04-02", "guest": "Harold Koplewicz", "title": "'Our kids are not OK,' child psychiatrist Harold Koplewicz says", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Dr. Harold Koplewicz, the founding president of the Child Mind Institute, author of the book \"Scaffold Parenting: Raising Resilient, Self-Reliant And Secure Kids In An Age Of Anxiety.\" He's a child psychiatrist and has been one for how many years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. So that's a myth, you know, the d, the b. What it really is, first of all, it's a brain-based disorder, and there's two major symptoms. One is alphabet recognition, being able to look at the A a"}
{"id": "1242170517", "date": "2024-04-02", "guest": "Harold Koplewicz", "title": "'Our kids are not OK,' child psychiatrist Harold Koplewicz says", "question_index": 24, "text": "OK. So this is a kind of personal question, but knowing what you know now - and there's so much more research that's been done into childhood, you know, behavioral problems and mental health disorders - do you think you had any undiagnosed problems as a child?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Almost 40."}
{"id": "1242170517", "date": "2024-04-02", "guest": "Harold Koplewicz", "title": "'Our kids are not OK,' child psychiatrist Harold Koplewicz says", "question_index": 25, "text": "And I don't mean that, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think so, but..."}
{"id": "1242170517", "date": "2024-04-02", "guest": "Harold Koplewicz", "title": "'Our kids are not OK,' child psychiatrist Harold Koplewicz says", "question_index": 26, "text": "...I recognize symptoms in", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no."}
{"id": "1242170517", "date": "2024-04-02", "guest": "Harold Koplewicz", "title": "'Our kids are not OK,' child psychiatrist Harold Koplewicz says", "question_index": 27, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no."}
{"id": "1242170517", "date": "2024-04-02", "guest": "Harold Koplewicz", "title": "'Our kids are not OK,' child psychiatrist Harold Koplewicz says", "question_index": 28, "text": "...In how you're behaving...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no. Yeah."}
{"id": "1242170517", "date": "2024-04-02", "guest": "Harold Koplewicz", "title": "'Our kids are not OK,' child psychiatrist Harold Koplewicz says", "question_index": 29, "text": "Were your parents in camps?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I - but I know - but I would tell you that I clearly became much more of a student when I was in college than I was in high school. I had Eastern European parents. I had parents who survived the Holoc"}
{"id": "1242170517", "date": "2024-04-02", "guest": "Harold Koplewicz", "title": "'Our kids are not OK,' child psychiatrist Harold Koplewicz says", "question_index": 30, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My father was literally in 14 concentration camps and the Warsaw Ghetto. And how is that possible? Well, at the very first camp, they asked, who knows how to make airplanes? And my father raised his h"}
{"id": "1242170517", "date": "2024-04-02", "guest": "Harold Koplewicz", "title": "'Our kids are not OK,' child psychiatrist Harold Koplewicz says", "question_index": 31, "text": "Yeah. So you mentioned your - so your mother was in camps, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...D.C."}
{"id": "1242170517", "date": "2024-04-02", "guest": "Harold Koplewicz", "title": "'Our kids are not OK,' child psychiatrist Harold Koplewicz says", "question_index": 32, "text": "Oh, they were married before the war started.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. My mother got papers as a Catholic and - false papers as a Catholic and walked out of the ghetto. And in some ways, it was more trying for her in the respect that - think about it. You have fake p"}
{"id": "1242170517", "date": "2024-04-02", "guest": "Harold Koplewicz", "title": "'Our kids are not OK,' child psychiatrist Harold Koplewicz says", "question_index": 33, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I wish I could tell you that's true, and that was the story I was told. But it turns out that when my then-12-year-old son was doing a - my wife insisted that if he was going to be bar mitzvahed"}
{"id": "1242170517", "date": "2024-04-02", "guest": "Harold Koplewicz", "title": "'Our kids are not OK,' child psychiatrist Harold Koplewicz says", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And she said, well, August 12. It was the day I lost my virginity with your grandfather. And he came home and said, I don't know if Grandma and Grandpa ever were married. I think they're celebrating t"}
{"id": "1242170517", "date": "2024-04-02", "guest": "Harold Koplewicz", "title": "'Our kids are not OK,' child psychiatrist Harold Koplewicz says", "question_index": 35, "text": "What impact do you think it had on you as a child to know that they were having these nightmares, these concentration camp...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I think they got married when they were leaving Poland to go to a displaced persons camp in Germany. But - and I have to tell you as an example, their people - my mother was madly in love with my f"}
{"id": "1242170517", "date": "2024-04-02", "guest": "Harold Koplewicz", "title": "'Our kids are not OK,' child psychiatrist Harold Koplewicz says", "question_index": 36, "text": "...Or posing-as-a-Catholic kind of nightmares? Did they tell you about that? Could you sense it? And in the same mode there, like, did they let on what they had experienced and how traumatic it was?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it was nightmares."}
{"id": "1242170517", "date": "2024-04-02", "guest": "Harold Koplewicz", "title": "'Our kids are not OK,' child psychiatrist Harold Koplewicz says", "question_index": 37, "text": "You must have grown up with a very dark view of life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the stories were never consistent or chronological, so you only got bits and pieces. You know, something about the showers - right? - that one of my grandmothers died in the showers. You know, I ha"}
{"id": "1242170517", "date": "2024-04-02", "guest": "Harold Koplewicz", "title": "'Our kids are not OK,' child psychiatrist Harold Koplewicz says", "question_index": 38, "text": "So one last question. You know, some parents really want to be their children's best friend, and some parents really want to maintain their stature as the authority figure, not the best friend. And in terms of being a parent yourself, I'm curious where you fit on that spectrum, if you are comfortable talking about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "At times, yes. You know, at time, yes. And yet the amazing part about my parents were they couldn't care less about material things. So other kids would live in houses near us in Queens and then in Na"}
{"id": "1242170517", "date": "2024-04-02", "guest": "Harold Koplewicz", "title": "'Our kids are not OK,' child psychiatrist Harold Koplewicz says", "question_index": 39, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Well, I'm not my kid's best friend, you know, and that's OK, because even though they're all adults now, which is a whole different kind of relationship... I mean, my children are 41, 37, and 35"}
{"id": "1242170517", "date": "2024-04-02", "guest": "Harold Koplewicz", "title": "'Our kids are not OK,' child psychiatrist Harold Koplewicz says", "question_index": 40, "text": "Dr. Harold Koplewicz, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...To see that one of my kids has gray hair. You know, it's like, how did this happen? Because I'm still 35. You know, but all along, I think there is this pull that you certainly want your kids to lo"}
{"id": "1242170517", "date": "2024-04-02", "guest": "Harold Koplewicz", "title": "'Our kids are not OK,' child psychiatrist Harold Koplewicz says", "question_index": 41, "text": "Dr. Harold Koplewicz is the founding president of the Child Mind Institute. His latest book is titled \"Scaffold Parenting.\" After we take a short break, Justin Chang reviews what he describes as a marvelous new movie. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it's been a pleasure, Terry."}
{"id": "1242529156", "date": "2024-04-05", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "A 'Curb Your Enthusiasm' appreciation, as the series comes to an end", "question_index": 0, "text": "So I guess you had the personality they were looking for.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They told me, you know, the part of Larry's wife doesn't put up with a lot of bull, that she's heard it all from him before. And she stands up to him, basically. So that's all they told me. And I went"}
{"id": "1242529156", "date": "2024-04-05", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "A 'Curb Your Enthusiasm' appreciation, as the series comes to an end", "question_index": 1, "text": "So how does improvisation and how does all the work that you did with The Groundlings figure in now to your work on \"Curb Your Enthusiasm\" with Larry David?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So I guess I was a happy medium. I don't know."}
{"id": "1242529156", "date": "2024-04-05", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "A 'Curb Your Enthusiasm' appreciation, as the series comes to an end", "question_index": 2, "text": "Of course, he's playing himself, more or less.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm sure that I would not have this job if I didn't have my training at The Groundlings because before I came to The Groundlings, I had not had any improv training. Only in acting classes for, y"}
{"id": "1242529156", "date": "2024-04-05", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "A 'Curb Your Enthusiasm' appreciation, as the series comes to an end", "question_index": 3, "text": "Have you ever been absolutely speechless by something that he said?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, of course, exactly. So I'm sure if he heard me talking about improv and how, you know, it's good to be trained, he would be making fun of me."}
{"id": "1242529156", "date": "2024-04-05", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "A 'Curb Your Enthusiasm' appreciation, as the series comes to an end", "question_index": 4, "text": "Well, let's hear a scene from the \"Porno Gil\" episode. And this is from \"Curb Your Enthusiasm,\" the Larry David show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We've all tossed in stories which have wound up on the air. It was actually a few years ago, a friend of mine passed away and it was all very sad. But the friends got together that night of the funera"}
{"id": "1242529156", "date": "2024-04-05", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "A 'Curb Your Enthusiasm' appreciation, as the series comes to an end", "question_index": 5, "text": "A scene from \"Curb Your Enthusiasm.\" Now, the show is part-scripted, part-improvised. How does it work, the storyline is scripted but the actual dialogue is improvised?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Jeff, laughter) Try not to die. Thank you."}
{"id": "1242529156", "date": "2024-04-05", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "A 'Curb Your Enthusiasm' appreciation, as the series comes to an end", "question_index": 6, "text": "Jeff Garlin, Susie Essman, welcome to FRESH AIR. Let me start by asking you to each describe your character on \"Curb.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Jeff) No, I love that. That's fantastic."}
{"id": "1242529156", "date": "2024-04-05", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "A 'Curb Your Enthusiasm' appreciation, as the series comes to an end", "question_index": 7, "text": "Well, you have the mouth. I mean, you really have a mouth on the show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You are a nemesis. You're an awesome nemesis."}
{"id": "1242529156", "date": "2024-04-05", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "A 'Curb Your Enthusiasm' appreciation, as the series comes to an end", "question_index": 8, "text": "What's your favorite rant after, you know, Larry or your husband has screwed up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1242529156", "date": "2024-04-05", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "A 'Curb Your Enthusiasm' appreciation, as the series comes to an end", "question_index": 9, "text": "Susie, you did characters in in your stand-up act that I think are slightly similar to the character you play on \"Curb,\" would you say?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, not - yeah."}
{"id": "1242529156", "date": "2024-04-05", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "A 'Curb Your Enthusiasm' appreciation, as the series comes to an end", "question_index": 10, "text": "Can I just start by saying the Fresh Air Fund is run by The New York Times to send poor children to the country for a couple of weeks in the summer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, actually, and what happened in that scene, what was interesting, is Larry basically said to me and his direction for that scene was - this was an episode called \"The Wire,\" where Jeff allows a F"}
{"id": "1242529156", "date": "2024-04-05", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "A 'Curb Your Enthusiasm' appreciation, as the series comes to an end", "question_index": 11, "text": "OK, so go ahead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "1242529156", "date": "2024-04-05", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "A 'Curb Your Enthusiasm' appreciation, as the series comes to an end", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, Jeff, does it bother you to be called fat on the series?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1242529156", "date": "2024-04-05", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "A 'Curb Your Enthusiasm' appreciation, as the series comes to an end", "question_index": 13, "text": "Jeff, you were - were you one of the creators of the series? You're an executive producer. You're one of the stars. Did you co-create it, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's all we care about. That's it. Is this funny? Is this real? Is it funny? Good. Let's do it."}
{"id": "1242529156", "date": "2024-04-05", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "A 'Curb Your Enthusiasm' appreciation, as the series comes to an end", "question_index": 14, "text": "It was your idea?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Completely, yeah."}
{"id": "1242529156", "date": "2024-04-05", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "A 'Curb Your Enthusiasm' appreciation, as the series comes to an end", "question_index": 15, "text": "Why did you want it improvised?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To improvise? Oh, 100%, yes. I'm always going to improvise. It had to be improvised."}
{"id": "1242529156", "date": "2024-04-05", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "A 'Curb Your Enthusiasm' appreciation, as the series comes to an end", "question_index": 16, "text": "So the story's all there, but your lines aren't.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it is, for some people. For us."}
{"id": "1242529156", "date": "2024-04-05", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "A 'Curb Your Enthusiasm' appreciation, as the series comes to an end", "question_index": 17, "text": "Susie, how were you cast in \"Curb?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the dialogue writes itself."}
{"id": "1242529156", "date": "2024-04-05", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "A 'Curb Your Enthusiasm' appreciation, as the series comes to an end", "question_index": 18, "text": "Do you remember what you said at the Jerry Stiller roast?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Larry says - he said, oh, this girl can handle that kind of language."}
{"id": "1242529156", "date": "2024-04-05", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "A 'Curb Your Enthusiasm' appreciation, as the series comes to an end", "question_index": 19, "text": "I can imagine it would be a little embarrassing when he's talking too loud or doing something inappropriate, and you don't know whether he's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Although when you go out to dinner with him, it's way scarier than acting with him because he's always pulling out his notebook or you don't know whether or not he's doing a scene in the restaurant an"}
{"id": "1242529156", "date": "2024-04-05", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "A 'Curb Your Enthusiasm' appreciation, as the series comes to an end", "question_index": 20, "text": "...Testing a performance...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh."}
{"id": "1242529156", "date": "2024-04-05", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "A 'Curb Your Enthusiasm' appreciation, as the series comes to an end", "question_index": 21, "text": "...Or just being weird.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1242529156", "date": "2024-04-05", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "A 'Curb Your Enthusiasm' appreciation, as the series comes to an end", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We've sat in a restaurant, a very sweet, quiet inn, you know, New England inn with a lot of people with kind of blue-gray hair. And he came in late. And his back was to the entire restaurant. But we w"}
{"id": "1244291465", "date": "2024-04-12", "guest": "Robert Armstrong", "title": "A look back at how Godzilla and King Kong first roared onto screen", "question_index": 0, "text": "Rudy Behlmer, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a scene from the 1933 film \"King Kong.\" That was Robert Armstrong as Carl Denham, the producer who journeys to Skull Island in the Indian Ocean to capture the giant ape and bring him to New Yor"}
{"id": "1244291465", "date": "2024-04-12", "guest": "Robert Armstrong", "title": "A look back at how Godzilla and King Kong first roared onto screen", "question_index": 1, "text": "Well, he wrote it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much, Terry. (Vocalizing) Bum, bum, bum. It doesn't sound as good when I do it as when Max Steiner did it."}
{"id": "1244291465", "date": "2024-04-12", "guest": "Robert Armstrong", "title": "A look back at how Godzilla and King Kong first roared onto screen", "question_index": 2, "text": "What would you say the importance of Max Steiner score is for \"King Kong?\" I mean, I love the score for this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1244291465", "date": "2024-04-12", "guest": "Robert Armstrong", "title": "A look back at how Godzilla and King Kong first roared onto screen", "question_index": 3, "text": "I love this score, but I find something very amusing about it, which is that although it's set on this island, Skull Island, the music is really very European and nothing like what would have been heard in the region at that time. And I'll play this scene in a moment, but, you know, when they first get to the island - when the American film crew first gets to the island and they're watching this, you know, native ritual...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a wonderful score. And, of course, he was a pioneer, certainly, in doing sound motion picture scores. But if you can imagine that picture, if you turn the sound off when you're watching a cassett"}
{"id": "1244291465", "date": "2024-04-12", "guest": "Robert Armstrong", "title": "A look back at how Godzilla and King Kong first roared onto screen", "question_index": 4, "text": "...The natives are chanting Kong, Kong, Kong. And there's this, like, march behind them as a kind of precursor of Kong's footsteps that will be marching toward his prey.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1244291465", "date": "2024-04-12", "guest": "Robert Armstrong", "title": "A look back at how Godzilla and King Kong first roared onto screen", "question_index": 5, "text": "And the march is a very European form, and the brass instruments playing it are so European. And yet this defines a kind of, you know, South Sea Island or African kind of Hollywood sound.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1244291465", "date": "2024-04-12", "guest": "Robert Armstrong", "title": "A look back at how Godzilla and King Kong first roared onto screen", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "have been thought up."}
{"id": "1244291465", "date": "2024-04-12", "guest": "Robert Armstrong", "title": "A look back at how Godzilla and King Kong first roared onto screen", "question_index": 7, "text": "Well, let's hear that scene where the film crew is observing this native ritual where the natives are chanting, Kong.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it is illogical if you stop and examine it from that standpoint. But the music, you know, they weren't saying, well, wait a minute, we have to get something that's indigenous to this area. We have"}
{"id": "1244291465", "date": "2024-04-12", "guest": "Robert Armstrong", "title": "A look back at how Godzilla and King Kong first roared onto screen", "question_index": 8, "text": "The pure musical delirium", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As characters, chanting) Kong, Kong."}
{"id": "1244291465", "date": "2024-04-12", "guest": "Robert Armstrong", "title": "A look back at how Godzilla and King Kong first roared onto screen", "question_index": 9, "text": ". I really love it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As characters, chanting) Kong, Kong."}
{"id": "1244291465", "date": "2024-04-12", "guest": "Robert Armstrong", "title": "A look back at how Godzilla and King Kong first roared onto screen", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yeah, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And frenzy. Frenzy and delirium."}
{"id": "1244291465", "date": "2024-04-12", "guest": "Robert Armstrong", "title": "A look back at how Godzilla and King Kong first roared onto screen", "question_index": 11, "text": "Well, the other memorable sounds in \"King Kong\" include, of course, Fay Wray's screams and the roar of Kong himself. Let's start with Fay Wray's screams. You know, in the movie, the Carl Denham character, the character who wants to, like, wrangle Kong and bring it back for a nightclub act, he says to the Fay Wray character, he's kind of, like, teaching her how to scream. And he says, OK, pretend you're screaming for your life. Which, of course, she later has to do. Do you know what kind of advice Fay Wray was given about how she should scream?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that would be a good team."}
{"id": "1244291465", "date": "2024-04-12", "guest": "Robert Armstrong", "title": "A look back at how Godzilla and King Kong first roared onto screen", "question_index": 12, "text": "And of course, King Kong has a very memorable roar. What do you know about how that was achieved?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the interesting thing is that, of course, if she had done as much screaming when they were shooting this film as it appears to be, she would have been hoarse on the fourth day of shooting. Most "}
{"id": "1244291465", "date": "2024-04-12", "guest": "Robert Armstrong", "title": "A look back at how Godzilla and King Kong first roared onto screen", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well, why don't we hear a nice scene with plenty of screams and roars? And this is, I believe, the first time we actually see Kong. Fay Wray is tied at the stake during another one of these ceremonies, and this scene starts with the chief, played by Noble Johnson.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, a remarkable man by the name of Murray Spivack, who was the head of the sound department at RKO Radio Pictures at the time, he was confronted with this film, you know, and thought, what can I do"}
{"id": "1244291465", "date": "2024-04-12", "guest": "Robert Armstrong", "title": "A look back at how Godzilla and King Kong first roared onto screen", "question_index": 14, "text": "Now, you know, Carl Denham is the character who's the American promoter determined to capture Kong so he can create a crowd-pleasing spectacle, you know, back in New York, and I want to play the scene where he explains why he needs a beautiful actress for the film that he eventually wants to build around Kong.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR, and as the new film \"Godzilla x Kong: The New Empire\" appears in theaters, we're listening to Terry's 1999 interview with film historian Rudy Belmar about the original \"King Kong,\" "}
{"id": "1244291465", "date": "2024-04-12", "guest": "Robert Armstrong", "title": "A look back at how Godzilla and King Kong first roared onto screen", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well, Carl Denham is certainly determined to do anything he needs to do to make this picture. Any comparisons you could make between Carl Denham and the real director of King Kong, Merian Cooper?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Carl Denham) I'm going out and get a girl for my picture, even if I have to marry one."}
{"id": "1244291465", "date": "2024-04-12", "guest": "Robert Armstrong", "title": "A look back at how Godzilla and King Kong first roared onto screen", "question_index": 16, "text": "That's the love interest of Fay Wray.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there are a lot of comparisons because Merian Cooper was, to a large extent, Carl Denham, and Ernest Schoedsack, his partner, who was the co-director, was, to a certain degree, the Bruce Cabot c"}
{"id": "1244291465", "date": "2024-04-12", "guest": "Robert Armstrong", "title": "A look back at how Godzilla and King Kong first roared onto screen", "question_index": 17, "text": "Cooper refused to use a man in a gorilla suit for King Kong, and so they went with, you know, the puppet and stop-time animation. Why didn't he want to use a man in a gorilla suit? It certainly would have been a lot easier.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The love interest of Fay Wray, who was the first mate on the junket, and Ruth Rose was Mrs. Schoedsack, and she wrote the final dialogue script. And Cooper and Schoedsack had been partners for a long "}
{"id": "1244291465", "date": "2024-04-12", "guest": "Robert Armstrong", "title": "A look back at how Godzilla and King Kong first roared onto screen", "question_index": 18, "text": "I've always thought that Kong's size and his, you know, relative size to buildings and people keeps changing throughout the movie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he felt that this had to be something different, and of course, there had always been these men running around in gorilla suits in all kinds of movies that were made in the '20s and early '30s, "}
{"id": "1244291465", "date": "2024-04-12", "guest": "Robert Armstrong", "title": "A look back at how Godzilla and King Kong first roared onto screen", "question_index": 19, "text": "Now, \"King Kong\" is really filled with a lot of bondage imagery - you know, Fay Wray in flimsy, chiffony dresses and lingerie, tied at the stake on the island or pulled out of her bed by Kong's giant arm in New York. Do you think that Cooper was intentionally playing to a kind of low-level bondage, S&M kind of thing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're absolutely right on that, Terry. It does keep changing, and this, once again, was - people were saying, well, wait a minute. We built him on a scale of 18 inches to a foot, meaning that he'd be"}
{"id": "1244291465", "date": "2024-04-12", "guest": "Robert Armstrong", "title": "A look back at how Godzilla and King Kong first roared onto screen", "question_index": 20, "text": "The blonde was probably a better contrast to Kong's dark body.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think so. I think that he just thought this would be great material. You know, I don't think he ever gave thought to that sort of thing. He obviously wanted to use a woman, and he had not used"}
{"id": "1244291465", "date": "2024-04-12", "guest": "Robert Armstrong", "title": "A look back at how Godzilla and King Kong first roared onto screen", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. And he said - you know, he said to Fay Wray when he first talked to her about it, he says, you're going to play opposite the tallest, darkest leading man..."}
{"id": "1244291465", "date": "2024-04-12", "guest": "Robert Armstrong", "title": "A look back at how Godzilla and King Kong first roared onto screen", "question_index": 22, "text": "Well, Rudy Behlmer, I want to thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Because she didn't really know. You know, he - and as she got into the thing, she realized what this was going to be, but she didn't understand how it was - 'cause a lot of the time, she was up in "}
{"id": "1244291465", "date": "2024-04-12", "guest": "Robert Armstrong", "title": "A look back at how Godzilla and King Kong first roared onto screen", "question_index": 23, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Terry, it's been my pleasure, and remember that big guy (imitating music)."}
{"id": "1244291465", "date": "2024-04-12", "guest": "Robert Armstrong", "title": "A look back at how Godzilla and King Kong first roared onto screen", "question_index": 24, "text": "Now, the ending is really changed. In the original \"Godzilla,\" the Japanese movie, the movie ends with the paleontologist saying, I can't believe that Godzilla is the only survivor of his species. If we continue testing H-bombs, another Godzilla will one day appear somewhere in the world. What's the ending in the American version?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this was, you know, the mid-'50s, a decade or so after the end of the war. I don't think there was a lot of sympathy for Japan. So the underlying message of the film may not have resonated so we"}
{"id": "1244291465", "date": "2024-04-12", "guest": "Robert Armstrong", "title": "A look back at how Godzilla and King Kong first roared onto screen", "question_index": 25, "text": "You know, watching the movie as an adult, I was thinking, well, you know, it's the H-bomb that's responsible for Godzilla, but it's the atomic bomb that was actually dropped on Japan. Why is it the H-bomb that the movie is so concerned with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, the giant bug, giant reptile, you know, atomic monster movies were extremely popular in the 1950s. I mean, I could run down a list of really wonderful titles like \"Tarantula,\" \"Them!,\""}
{"id": "1244291465", "date": "2024-04-12", "guest": "Robert Armstrong", "title": "A look back at how Godzilla and King Kong first roared onto screen", "question_index": 26, "text": "There are amazing scenes of destruction in \"Godzilla.\" You know, Godzilla in the movie, he's not just a victim of the hydrogen bomb, a victim in the sense that he's become bizarre and radioactive as a result of this, but he also is a kind of, like, metaphor for the force of hydrogen and atom bombs. And, you know, he breathes fire, and he sets Tokyo ablaze, and the scenes of Tokyo burning are really disturbing, especially if you're a child watching it. Can you describe how those scenes were shot?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the H-bomb testing program was in full effect at this time. And there was an incident in early 1954, the Lucky Dragon tragedy. And this is really the incident that may have been, you know, the m"}
{"id": "1244291465", "date": "2024-04-12", "guest": "Robert Armstrong", "title": "A look back at how Godzilla and King Kong first roared onto screen", "question_index": 27, "text": "One of the things that really intensifies all the effects of \"Godzilla,\" the sense of danger, the sense of destruction, is the score. It's a fantastic score, and worked into the score are the sounds of the monster growling and the really frightening sounds of the monster's footsteps reverberating. Tell us something about the composer of the score.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR, and we're recalling the origins of King Kong and Godzilla as the new film, \"Godzilla x King Kong: The New Empire,\" appears in theaters. Let's get back to Terry's 2004 interview with"}
{"id": "1244291465", "date": "2024-04-12", "guest": "Robert Armstrong", "title": "A look back at how Godzilla and King Kong first roared onto screen", "question_index": 28, "text": "Why don't we hear a part of the score, and you'll hear the monster's footsteps and the monster's roar worked into it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Akira Ifukube - boy, what can I say? I think the score for \"Godzilla\" - of course I'm biased, but I think it's one of the greatest film scores of all time. And of course, the motifs in \"Godzilla"}
{"id": "1244291465", "date": "2024-04-12", "guest": "Robert Armstrong", "title": "A look back at how Godzilla and King Kong first roared onto screen", "question_index": 29, "text": "That's music from the soundtrack of \"Godzilla.\" The sound of Godzilla's footsteps have always seemed to me to be the sound of impending doom, you know, 'cause it's this thunderous, reverberating sound, and you get the feeling it's coming closer, you know? And so that's the feeling you're always left with when you hear these footsteps. It's like it's coming closer. The monster or the tragedy is approaching. How were those footsteps created?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Akira Ifukube - boy, what can I say? I think the score for \"Godzilla\" - of course I'm biased, but I think it's one of the greatest film scores of all time. And of course, the motifs in \"Godzilla"}
{"id": "1244291465", "date": "2024-04-12", "guest": "Robert Armstrong", "title": "A look back at how Godzilla and King Kong first roared onto screen", "question_index": 30, "text": "How was the monster's roar created?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there are several accounts of how that was done. It seems to have been - the most logical explanation seems to be a large drum that was beat and recorded and, you know, reverb effects added to i"}
{"id": "1244291465", "date": "2024-04-12", "guest": "Robert Armstrong", "title": "A look back at how Godzilla and King Kong first roared onto screen", "question_index": 31, "text": "Do you think that the director of \"Godzilla,\" Ishiro Honda, saw it as a monster film or saw it as, you know, a parable about the dangers of nuclear weapons?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The monster's raw - boy, isn't that one of the greatest sound effects in movie history? Every kid knows it. I remember when I was a child, we used to try to imitate it no not too much success. It was "}
{"id": "1244291465", "date": "2024-04-12", "guest": "Robert Armstrong", "title": "A look back at how Godzilla and King Kong first roared onto screen", "question_index": 32, "text": "You've seen all of the \"Godzilla\" sequels. Which do you think are the worst?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's a little bit of both. Mr. Honda had served in the Japanese military during World War II, and upon his return home after the war, he had visited Hiroshima and witnessed the aftermath of th"}
{"id": "1244291465", "date": "2024-04-12", "guest": "Robert Armstrong", "title": "A look back at how Godzilla and King Kong first roared onto screen", "question_index": 33, "text": "Well, Steve Ryfle, thanks so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the film that is fairly universally regarded as the worst of the \"Godzilla\" series is called \"Godzilla Vs. Megalon.\" And, you know, this film has unfortunately been probably seen more widely tha"}
{"id": "1245286544", "date": "2024-04-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering acclaimed artist and quilter Faith Ringgold", "question_index": 0, "text": "Did you know other Black artists or other women artists when you were getting started?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was brought up with little pieces of fabric. And I was always sewing and making things, you know, but then I would discard them because they didn't look - you know, I mean, we're trained to feel tha"}
{"id": "1245286544", "date": "2024-04-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering acclaimed artist and quilter Faith Ringgold", "question_index": 1, "text": "Is it hard to find...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As a young student, no. I did not. I had to find these things for myself. I wasn't taught about any Black artists when I was in school. I never had a Black teacher in my life. But I - no, I didn't lea"}
{"id": "1245286544", "date": "2024-04-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering acclaimed artist and quilter Faith Ringgold", "question_index": 2, "text": "...The right colors for the skin tone?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And green."}
{"id": "1245286544", "date": "2024-04-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering acclaimed artist and quilter Faith Ringgold", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, especially when you're not being taught. You know, and my professors, they thought I was being exotic. They said to me, what are you trying to do? You know, why don't - you know, why don't you j"}
{"id": "1245286544", "date": "2024-04-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering acclaimed artist and quilter Faith Ringgold", "question_index": 4, "text": "I want to ask you about one of your earlier quilts, and this one is a - is called \"Who's Afraid of Aunt Jemima?\" What was the significance of the Aunt Jemima image for you that led you to want to do a quilt on it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, I mean, to them, you know, there was only one kind of people - white people. I mean, what, are you trying to make up something new here? And I - well, I had to find out for myself. And in the proc"}
{"id": "1245286544", "date": "2024-04-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering acclaimed artist and quilter Faith Ringgold", "question_index": 5, "text": "You did a story quilt about your own weight loss.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was always quite turned off by people's hatred of Aunt Jemima because of her size and her color and the way they used to change her on the boxes. You know, the Aunt Jemima pancake box - if you"}
{"id": "1245286544", "date": "2024-04-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering acclaimed artist and quilter Faith Ringgold", "question_index": 6, "text": "You want to describe that quilt?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I did."}
{"id": "1245286544", "date": "2024-04-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering acclaimed artist and quilter Faith Ringgold", "question_index": 7, "text": "You grew up in Harlem, and you still have a studio there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I guess also I associated myself very strongly with Aunt Jemima because, you know, I was fat, too. And you get a lot of flak from people when you are, you know? They kind of care about you less. T"}
{"id": "1245286544", "date": "2024-04-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering acclaimed artist and quilter Faith Ringgold", "question_index": 8, "text": "That's right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's quite a lovely place to live. It has a - it's close to everywhere, you know? I mean, the transportation is great. The people are friendly. I feel at home. I'm not a minority there. I've lived the"}
{"id": "1245286544", "date": "2024-04-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering acclaimed artist and quilter Faith Ringgold", "question_index": 9, "text": "So what keeps you in Harlem? That sense of community?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know?"}
{"id": "1245286544", "date": "2024-04-17", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering acclaimed artist and quilter Faith Ringgold", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, Faith Ringgold, I thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I like not being a minority. I like the idea that when I look around, I see a whole lot of people like me. I go in a store, nobody follows me around thinking I'm trying to steal something, you k"}
{"id": "1245574597", "date": "2024-04-19", "guest": "Robert Macneil", "title": "Remembering Robert MacNeil, longtime host of PBS 'NewsHour'", "question_index": 0, "text": "You did foreign correspondent work pretty early on in your career and stuck with that for several years. What were the stories in which you most felt you were really covering history in the making, that you were there for what was to later be recognized as a great moment in history?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "After Watergate ran its course, Robert McNeil used his newfound celebrity to launch \"The Robert MacNeil Report\" in 1975, a serious news program looking at a single issue in depth each day. Within a ye"}
{"id": "1245574597", "date": "2024-04-19", "guest": "Robert Macneil", "title": "Remembering Robert MacNeil, longtime host of PBS 'NewsHour'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Yeah. You were basically held under house arrest...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one was the Berlin Wall, clearly. It - I don't think had any doubt - I mean, sometimes you just don't know. And for years later, you don't realize the significance of something. But the Berlin W"}
{"id": "1245574597", "date": "2024-04-19", "guest": "Robert Macneil", "title": "Remembering Robert MacNeil, longtime host of PBS 'NewsHour'", "question_index": 2, "text": "...In a hotel in Cuba.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "1245574597", "date": "2024-04-19", "guest": "Robert Macneil", "title": "Remembering Robert MacNeil, longtime host of PBS 'NewsHour'", "question_index": 3, "text": "What were you told?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. With armed guards outside the door and all that."}
{"id": "1245574597", "date": "2024-04-19", "guest": "Robert Macneil", "title": "Remembering Robert MacNeil, longtime host of PBS 'NewsHour'", "question_index": 4, "text": "How did you end up...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nothing."}
{"id": "1245574597", "date": "2024-04-19", "guest": "Robert Macneil", "title": "Remembering Robert MacNeil, longtime host of PBS 'NewsHour'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Did they round you up and take you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're going to be guests..."}
{"id": "1245574597", "date": "2024-04-19", "guest": "Robert Macneil", "title": "Remembering Robert MacNeil, longtime host of PBS 'NewsHour'", "question_index": 6, "text": "When you first started to work for public television, it was through NPAC, the National Public Affairs Center...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. At gunpoint. They said you're coming downtown, and we got into a truck. And then we went into the hotel lobby, and a Cuban army officer said, you're going to be the guests of the Cuban governmen"}
{"id": "1245574597", "date": "2024-04-19", "guest": "Robert Macneil", "title": "Remembering Robert MacNeil, longtime host of PBS 'NewsHour'", "question_index": 7, "text": "...For Television, which was basically attacked by the Nixon administration. And that's been revealed in detail through...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "1245574597", "date": "2024-04-19", "guest": "Robert Macneil", "title": "Remembering Robert MacNeil, longtime host of PBS 'NewsHour'", "question_index": 8, "text": "...Documents released through the Freedom of Information Act.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That's right."}
{"id": "1245574597", "date": "2024-04-19", "guest": "Robert Macneil", "title": "Remembering Robert MacNeil, longtime host of PBS 'NewsHour'", "question_index": 9, "text": "We only have a couple of seconds left, but I'd like to know if it was really hard for you when you gave up smoking. Knowing the kind of pressures and deadlines that you're under, was it really hard to do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The great irony was that after nearly being run out of town by the Nixon White House in - Sandy Vanocur and I on the - when we were doing this - the one-year thing called \"Impact,\" which was an attemp"}
{"id": "1245574597", "date": "2024-04-19", "guest": "Robert Macneil", "title": "Remembering Robert MacNeil, longtime host of PBS 'NewsHour'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Oh, so are you smoking again?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like Mark Twain, it's easy. I've done it many times."}
{"id": "1245574597", "date": "2024-04-19", "guest": "Robert Macneil", "title": "Remembering Robert MacNeil, longtime host of PBS 'NewsHour'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Oh, no.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not now, but I did it again - as a matter of fact, it was the story of English that got me back to smoking again..."}
{"id": "1245574597", "date": "2024-04-19", "guest": "Robert Macneil", "title": "Remembering Robert MacNeil, longtime host of PBS 'NewsHour'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, good luck.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Because I went back many times to Britain, and I always associate that and the pubs, which I like very much, with smoking, standing around and smoking, and I started again when I was over there as "}
{"id": "1245574597", "date": "2024-04-19", "guest": "Robert Macneil", "title": "Remembering Robert MacNeil, longtime host of PBS 'NewsHour'", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, quite a lot. It occurred several times. You know, we had one moment back during the - when the Gulf War was about to happen, and it was early January 1991. It looked as though Bush was about to go"}
{"id": "1245574597", "date": "2024-04-19", "guest": "Robert Macneil", "title": "Remembering Robert MacNeil, longtime host of PBS 'NewsHour'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Your style on television as a journalist has always been based on fairness and straightforwardness - you know, no prosecutorial posturing, no showoff kind of stuff. Did you feel like your style has changed at all over the years, or that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So we stayed - I stayed. I didn't have to be 60. And we did the war. And it was obviously the right thing to do, and they were right. But clearly, a subversive little voice in me was saying, you know."}
{"id": "1245574597", "date": "2024-04-19", "guest": "Robert Macneil", "title": "Remembering Robert MacNeil, longtime host of PBS 'NewsHour'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Yeah. Or do you think that you found a style and - found an approach and stuck with it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That mine changed?"}
{"id": "1245574597", "date": "2024-04-19", "guest": "Robert Macneil", "title": "Remembering Robert MacNeil, longtime host of PBS 'NewsHour'", "question_index": 16, "text": "You know, your interviewing style on camera has always been, you know, as fair and as dispassionate as possible so that the story is about the views being expressed and not about your views. I mean, you don't try to bait people or anything.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think I found an approach in stuck with it. I said recently at a reception here that when I got back into broadcasting, having been five years at Reuters and never thought I'd be doing anythin"}
{"id": "1245574597", "date": "2024-04-19", "guest": "Robert Macneil", "title": "Remembering Robert MacNeil, longtime host of PBS 'NewsHour'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. But this - well, there are two parts to that."}
{"id": "1245574597", "date": "2024-04-19", "guest": "Robert Macneil", "title": "Remembering Robert MacNeil, longtime host of PBS 'NewsHour'", "question_index": 18, "text": "Have you ever done anything that you consider to be wildly out of character, lose your cool, blow up, say something you regretted, become too emotionally involved?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, one is that if you're going to be on a program every night - Jim and I, we discussed this way back at the very beginning. We don't have to make big demonstrations to make people aware of our pr"}
{"id": "1245574597", "date": "2024-04-19", "guest": "Robert Macneil", "title": "Remembering Robert MacNeil, longtime host of PBS 'NewsHour'", "question_index": 19, "text": "That's a funny story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And Brinkley swung around in his chair and said, how do you know how I voted? And I said - this is on the air. I said, I didn't know how you voted, David. I just said that that's an area which has rat"}
{"id": "1245574597", "date": "2024-04-19", "guest": "Robert Macneil", "title": "Remembering Robert MacNeil, longtime host of PBS 'NewsHour'", "question_index": 20, "text": "Do you worry at all that tomorrow morning, Saturday morning, the first day after you've left \"The MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour\" that you're going to wake up and say, what have I done? I mean, you're on deadline all the time, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A bit over-pleased with myself."}
{"id": "1245574597", "date": "2024-04-19", "guest": "Robert Macneil", "title": "Remembering Robert MacNeil, longtime host of PBS 'NewsHour'", "question_index": 21, "text": "And that adrenaline is, like, pumping away.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1245574597", "date": "2024-04-19", "guest": "Robert Macneil", "title": "Remembering Robert MacNeil, longtime host of PBS 'NewsHour'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I know. But you can - what is the word? - divert that adrenaline flow into writing books. I certainly can. And I can get just as excited and driven writing a book as I can putting on a televisio"}
{"id": "1245574597", "date": "2024-04-19", "guest": "Robert Macneil", "title": "Remembering Robert MacNeil, longtime host of PBS 'NewsHour'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Well, let me say on behalf of many, many people, we will miss you and I wish you very good luck. And thanks for all the years of broadcasts, and I look forward to more books by you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You would appreciate this because the work you do is very much more yours than most of what we do in television. Television is necessarily a highly collaborative business. It takes many people and man"}
{"id": "1245574597", "date": "2024-04-19", "guest": "Robert Macneil", "title": "Remembering Robert MacNeil, longtime host of PBS 'NewsHour'", "question_index": 24, "text": "I knew there was going to be a big advantage.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you. Now I can listen to you more."}
{"id": "1245574597", "date": "2024-04-19", "guest": "Robert Macneil", "title": "Remembering Robert MacNeil, longtime host of PBS 'NewsHour'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you. Now I can listen to you more."}
{"id": "1245579935", "date": "2024-04-19", "guest": "Hearts Of Darkness", "title": "Remembering documentary filmmaker Eleanor Coppola", "question_index": 0, "text": "One of the stories that the movie gets into, the documentary on the making of \"Apocalypse Now,\" is how Francis Coppola used helicopters from the Philippine Army because the United States Army wouldn't cooperate with the making of a movie about Vietnam, but the government kept wanting the helicopters back to fight a civil war against communist insurgents. Tell us some of the ways that kept disrupting the shooting of \"Apocalypse Now.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I found it really exhilarating. You know, it's like the most incredible Fourth-of-July kind of a light show with these, you know, enormous explosions. And the earth shook like an earthquake. The"}
{"id": "1245579935", "date": "2024-04-19", "guest": "Hearts Of Darkness", "title": "Remembering documentary filmmaker Eleanor Coppola", "question_index": 1, "text": "And there were guards at your house because Marcos was afraid that rebels would kidnap you and Francis Coppola for publicity.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a very disruptive situation because the Army would send out their helicopters and whatever pilots they wanted to send out, and the pilots would be different every day. So they hadn't rehearsed."}
{"id": "1245579935", "date": "2024-04-19", "guest": "Hearts Of Darkness", "title": "Remembering documentary filmmaker Eleanor Coppola", "question_index": 2, "text": "I could see how that would not be very reassuring.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. They had some idea that if Francis would be kidnapped for some political reasons by the insurgents that it would create an international incident and bring attention to the Philippines, and unwan"}
{"id": "1245579935", "date": "2024-04-19", "guest": "Hearts Of Darkness", "title": "Remembering documentary filmmaker Eleanor Coppola", "question_index": 3, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. And I'm there with, you know, three children."}
{"id": "1245579935", "date": "2024-04-19", "guest": "Hearts Of Darkness", "title": "Remembering documentary filmmaker Eleanor Coppola", "question_index": 4, "text": "When Marlon Brando arrived on the set to play Kurtz, Francis Coppola didn't realize that Brando was going to be as heavy as he was. How did that affect the way the role was conceived?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1992 interview with filmmaker and author Eleanor Coppola. She died last Friday at age 87. Her first documentary was an acclaimed, unvarnished look at the m"}
{"id": "1245579935", "date": "2024-04-19", "guest": "Hearts Of Darkness", "title": "Remembering documentary filmmaker Eleanor Coppola", "question_index": 5, "text": "A lot of Marlon Brando's part was improvised. There's some really interesting footage in \"Hearts Of Darkness\" of Brando improvising. Would you describe a little bit of the process that he and Francis Coppola used to improvise the part?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when Francis realized that he was not slimmed down and able to play the Green Beret that he was originally, you know, committed to the part for that - Francis had to decide what to do in this si"}
{"id": "1245579935", "date": "2024-04-19", "guest": "Hearts Of Darkness", "title": "Remembering documentary filmmaker Eleanor Coppola", "question_index": 6, "text": "It sounds from the footage you shot that one of the techniques that they used to improvise was that Francis Coppola would ask Marlon Brando questions off camera, and then Brando would have to respond to the questions and the camera would be rolling as he responded.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they would come up with some actual lines and some of the dialogue that Marlon was to say, but the way Marlon works is he has to find a reality. So he would then put those lines into kind of a -"}
{"id": "1245579935", "date": "2024-04-19", "guest": "Hearts Of Darkness", "title": "Remembering documentary filmmaker Eleanor Coppola", "question_index": 7, "text": "Dennis Hopper played the part of a really drugged-out American journalist in Vietnam. When he was cast in this role, he already had the reputation for being genuinely drugged out and burned out. And there's some terrific footage in the documentary of him and Francis Coppola talking together and trying to, like, work out what the part's going to be. And Coppola wants to know how come he doesn't know his lines yet. Why did Coppola even bring on Dennis Hopper? And I'm a really big fan of Hopper's, asking this question, but he was in such bad shape. Then, you know, you wonder why would you ask for this kind of trouble?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's our time to grab this moment in history. It's our time to teach. Huh? I can't think of any more dialogue today."}
{"id": "1245579935", "date": "2024-04-19", "guest": "Hearts Of Darkness", "title": "Remembering documentary filmmaker Eleanor Coppola", "question_index": 8, "text": "My guest is Eleanor Coppola, and we're talking about the making of \"Apocalypse Now.\" Are you still on the set now when your husband makes a movie, or do you prefer to be off of it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. But it's not fair to forget them if you never knew them."}
{"id": "1245579935", "date": "2024-04-19", "guest": "Hearts Of Darkness", "title": "Remembering documentary filmmaker Eleanor Coppola", "question_index": 9, "text": "How does it feel?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, up until - up through \"Godfather III,\" the whole family went to the locations with Francis on all of his films. We lived there. We put our kids in school there. We lived our life in the - you kn"}
{"id": "1245579935", "date": "2024-04-19", "guest": "Hearts Of Darkness", "title": "Remembering documentary filmmaker Eleanor Coppola", "question_index": 10, "text": "There's an entry in your journals where you say that people - you know, when you write a check or give a credit card, people always want to know, oh, are you related to Francis Coppola? And when they find out that you're married, they're always, you know, a little bit flustered. And you say you sometimes wonder, like, what did they expect to see? Do they expect Francis Coppola's wife to be a Playboy Bunny, you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's a new experience. It's a new freedom. And after 28 years of living your life one way, it's quite an adjustment to shift. And I'm excited. You know, I'm very excited about the future. And I'"}
{"id": "1245579935", "date": "2024-04-19", "guest": "Hearts Of Darkness", "title": "Remembering documentary filmmaker Eleanor Coppola", "question_index": 11, "text": "Do you feel that way, a lot of people have this expectation that any, like, famous director is going to have this young, sexpot-type wife, fashion model?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's a new experience. It's a new freedom. And after 28 years of living your life one way, it's quite an adjustment to shift. And I'm excited. You know, I'm very excited about the future. And I'"}
{"id": "1245579935", "date": "2024-04-19", "guest": "Hearts Of Darkness", "title": "Remembering documentary filmmaker Eleanor Coppola", "question_index": 12, "text": "I have one question that I realize might be too personal, so let me ask it and feel free to tell me it's too personal or that it's whatever, OK? You have a son who was killed in an accident. And I was wondering if his death, in a way, made it even more important for the family to stay together.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...That, you know, we have been together all these years. It's actually going to be 29 years next week. And yet recently I've done some interviews, and I realize that the person interviewing me says, "}
{"id": "1245579935", "date": "2024-04-19", "guest": "Hearts Of Darkness", "title": "Remembering documentary filmmaker Eleanor Coppola", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well, I thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when there is a death in the family, it creates a complete crisis within the family. And actually, the statistics are that 92% of marriages break up when there's a death of a child. So it is a t"}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 0, "text": "John Green, welcome to FRESH AIR. I'd like you to start by reading from your new book, but first, since her obsession is fear of getting C. difficile, aka C. diff, why don't you describe what this really horrendous disease is?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "John Green drew on his own experiences with OCD, which he's dealt with since childhood. Terry Gross spoke with John Green in 2017, when \"Turtles All the Way Down\" first was published."}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 1, "text": "And just to get a little bit more graphic, I mean, C. diff leads to, like, really extreme diarrhea, and in some people, particularly in elderly people, you can die if it's not treated. So it's a very serious and a very problematic infection. And you're also going to refer, in the reading I'm about to ask you to do, to the microbiome, which is the collection of, you know, bacteria and micro-organisms in the gut, and so the goal is to always have a healthy microbiome.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. C. diff is a disease that is usually associated with antibiotic use in hospitals. And basically, there's this bacteria in your gut, and if it grows out of control, you can become very, very sick"}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 2, "text": "Oh, I know. It's a remarkable thing when you think about how your whole body - your skin, your gut - everything is just, like, populated with these micro-organisms, which is scientifically fascinating. But the more you think about it, the kind of creepier it is. And for her, it's more than creepy. It's disturbing. It's very deeply disturbing. So I want you to do a reading, and this is from, like, a little more than midway through the book. And she has been friends with and is kind of starting to become girlfriend-boyfriend with a teenage boy. They're starting to kiss a little bit, and because of this whole microbiome thing, it's making her really uncomfortable. And some of what we're going to be hearing is her intrusive OCD, her obsessive compulsive thoughts interfering with the rest of her thoughts. So some of what you're saying is written in italics, and all the italicized parts are those intrusive thoughts interfering in her mind. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, one of the really weird things about being a person is that about half of the cells inside of your body are not yours. They're microbes, and that's also something that is of some concern"}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 3, "text": "Would you do the reading?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 4, "text": "Thank you for reading that. That's John Green reading from his new novel, which is called \"Turtles All the Way Down.\" So of all the obsessive compulsive thoughts you could have given your main character, Aza, why did you give her this obsession with C. diff?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) I told myself to be in this moment, to let myself feel his warmth on my skin. But now his tongue was on my neck, wet and alive and microbial. And his hand was sneaking under my jacket, his c"}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 5, "text": "So one of the things that she has are these thought spirals. I'm going to ask you to describe a thought spiral.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, partly because I can relate to it. I mean, I needed a place where I could make a connection with Aza in order to write about her, I think, and I've long had a fear of contamination from micro-or"}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 6, "text": "She uses the word invasives to describe the kind of thoughts that you can't control and that take over. Is that your word, or did you get that from therapy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the thing about a spiral is that if you follow it inward, it just keeps going forever. It just gets tighter and tighter, and it never actually ends. And that's kind of how Aza experiences her th"}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 7, "text": "So at what point did you decide that you would write a novel with a main character who has, as you do, obsessive compulsive disorder?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's my word. When I was first told about OCD, I was told that these thoughts are called intrusives, but I actually heard the word invasives, for some reason, and that is what it's like for me"}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 8, "text": "OCD sick?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In some ways, the choice was made for me because I couldn't write about anything else. I tried to write a few other novels after \"The Fault In Our Stars\" came out, and I ended up having to abandon the"}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 9, "text": "So you've said that you have OCD. Tell us more about what form it has taken in your life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. I just had a really poor period of mental health where for a few months, I wasn't able to feel like I was in any control over what I was thinking about, and coming out of that period, this"}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 10, "text": "So what are the things you're most afraid of contaminating you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I guess the sort of dominant form that it's taken in my life is that I get worried, I get afraid of having an illness or having some kind of contamination inside of my body, and then I become un"}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 11, "text": "Oh, OK. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, there's a reason - you know, I'm being super-intentional about not saying that."}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 12, "text": "That's fine. I don't want to tread on that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So..."}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 13, "text": "You get what? Squirmy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That's the only thing that I can't - I can't talk directly about it 'cause I get squirmy."}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 14, "text": "Would it be awkward, too, for us all to know - like, say we met you in person sometime - would it be awkward for you to have everybody know what that most vulnerable point was?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 15, "text": "Yeah. Understandable.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 16, "text": "Yeah, yeah, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That's why."}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 17, "text": "So in the novel, there's a physical manifestation as well as obsessive compulsive thoughts. The physical manifestation has to deal with digging the fingernail of one finger into the finger pad of another. Would you describe that physical manifestation of OCD?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2017 interview with John Green. His bestselling novel \"Turtles All the Way Down\" has been made into a new film, which premieres next week on the streaming "}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 18, "text": "And, of course, the more she does, the more she risks infection.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So one of the ways - she's been doing this since she was a little kid, and she just digs her thumbnail into her finger pad. Initially, it was a way - she would ask her mom, why do I know that I'"}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 19, "text": "So have you had a physical manifestation like that, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course. Yeah. I mean, this is not uncommon. These are not rational behaviors, so, you know, I find that, like, trying to apply logic - at least in my own life, like, trying to apply logic to it is "}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 20, "text": "For Aza, your main character, the OCD leads to a form of self-obsession, which makes her self-absorbed and not tuned into other people, and her best friend calls her out for it. Her best friend basically says, you probably don't even - you know, she lists things that she assumes Aza doesn't even know about her because she's so absorbed with herself. Was there a point in your life where you felt that your OCD was actually making you self-absorbed in a way that you didn't want to be, that you were neglecting other people, that you were losing a sense of empathy 'cause you were looking within so much?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Not exactly that, but I count on my fingers as a way of calming myself. And so I think that's probably why I started thinking about it, and then I liked the idea that, you know, it's literally a"}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 21, "text": "Because you're focused on the wrong thing obsessively.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It has definitely affected my real-life relationships over the years in profound ways. I also wanted Aza to struggle with her ability to observe the world outside of herself because I think that is tr"}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 22, "text": "So the characters in your new book are also dealing with the deaths of parents, and in \"The Fault in Our Stars,\" the two main characters are dealing with cancer that is likely to be terminal. So, you know, death plays, like, a major role in your books, and I'd be interested in hearing why.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, because I can't notice the world outside of myself in the way that I want to because I'm so deeply and irrationally focused on stuff that's happening kind of within me."}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 23, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it's a big problem. It's a big question. And one of the things I like about teenagers..."}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 24, "text": "It's a problem.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Is that they're looking - yeah, I mean, it's a big theme."}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 25, "text": "When was the first time you dealt with the death of somebody who you knew?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, yeah. I mean, I'm concerned about it. That's probably one of the reasons. But also, one of the things I like about teen characters is that they're grappling with the kind of questions around de"}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 26, "text": "How did the classmate die?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I was in high school, a classmate of mine died. And it was - I went to a very small school, and it was devastating to the whole school."}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 27, "text": "What was your way of talking to your friends about it in order to get through it? Like, how did you - do you remember any of those conversations in which you tried to talk through not only the loss that you were experiencing but also, like, why do these things happen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was in a car accident."}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 28, "text": "Was there any kind of, like, religious service that provided answers that you either found comforting or, you know, just, like, bromides that were not helpful?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I think when you're in that position, those questions about meaning in life and what meaning you're going to find in life - they stop being rhetorical questions, and they become matters "}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 29, "text": "Are you still Episcopalian, and if so, what do you find in your spiritual tradition?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There were a lot of bromides that weren't helpful. I mean, I'm Episcopalian, and I worked briefly as a student chaplain at a children's hospital. You know, I thought about going to divinity school. Re"}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 30, "text": "You know, as I mentioned, in your last two novels teenagers are dealing with death, death of their parents or the possibility of their own death because they have cancer. So you spent some time working as, what, an assistant chaplain at a children's hospital? Is that what you said?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University, in for Terry Gross. Let's return to Terry's 2017 interview with John Green. He's famous for his young adult"}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 31, "text": "So what were you exposed to there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, a student chaplain, I think, is the technical term, but yeah, either way."}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 32, "text": "Were you mostly talking with the parents or the children?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, you're with people on the worst day of their lives. And people who work in children's hospitals for longer than the few months that I was there are real heroes to me because you see the wors"}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 33, "text": "That was probably really helpful", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I was 22 at the time."}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 34, "text": "Did it feel awkward to be 22 and trying to help parents through a period when their child was, you know, dying or possibly dying? Did you feel like, who am I to help them - I'm 22?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And so if somebody had an Xbox, I would play video games with them."}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 35, "text": "Because you're a father now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, of course. I did, yeah. I felt unqualified in every possible way. But, you know, interestingly, I'm now 40 and I think I would still feel unqualified in every possible way. And if anything, I mi"}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 36, "text": "Are you surprised that so many teenagers want to read stories about teenagers who have the kind of problems that make you feel different from everyone else, like OCD, or like having lost a parent who died, or like having cancer and maybe dying yourself? I mean, so many teenagers are just absorbed with, you know, school, finding a new boyfriend or girlfriend, just, like, having friends, figuring out how to make your way without being bullied or hated by other kids", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 37, "text": ". But, I mean, you're dealing with really major problems in your book, not to make light of those other problems 'cause when you're a teenager those other problems are really big.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 38, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. No, I think that's actually the answer, though, is that when you're a teenager, no matter what your experience is, the problems are big and they're in many cases new. In many cases, it's the fi"}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 39, "text": "Do you remember your first girlfriend, your first crush, and can you tell us about it? Or would you rather not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so I think there's - you know, that intensity to the first-ness of all these experiences that teenagers are going through, I think, is part of what makes them connect to people who feel - who are "}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 40, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Sure."}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 41, "text": "Did you tell your parents?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, my first crush was in third grade. And I wore, like, matching OP, like, shorts and a shirt to ask her to go with me, which was the parlance of the day. And I remember, like, you know, just fee"}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 42, "text": "Did you kiss?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Yeah, I definitely told my parents. I was like, I have a girlfriend. And they were like, why?"}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 43, "text": "So what did it mean to have a girlfriend?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no. No, I don't even think we held hands, actually."}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 44, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nothing."}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 45, "text": "Do you remember the first time you fell in love for real?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, yeah, I think it must have been borne from the stories I was reading. Like, I was really into, like, series books like \"Sweet Valley High\" and \"The Babysitters Club.\" And so it must have come "}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 46, "text": "Did the OCD get in the way of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, yeah. That was in college."}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 47, "text": "\"The Fault in Our Stars,\" the one where it's written from the point of view of a teenage girl who has - is it stage 4, I think, cancer?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2017 interview with John Green, whose latest young adult novel, \"Turtles All the Way Down,\" had just been published. It's now been made into a movie, premi"}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 48, "text": "So my understanding is that's based in part on one of your fans who actually was dying of cancer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 49, "text": "What were some of the things you took away from her life and death that you put in the book?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, my friend Esther Earl. She died of cancer in 2010, when she was 16, and she was a really involved member of the community that grew up around the videos that my brother and I made and was really"}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 50, "text": "Did writing the book convince you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Esther was just uncommonly empathetic. I don't know that that was because she was sick. I think it was partly because she was - you know, some people are just extraordinary. She was incredibly - in th"}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 51, "text": "You have two children. Is your point of view when you're writing shifting a little bit from the teenager to the parent? I mean...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a good question. Yeah. I mean, I don't know that writing the book convinced me, but I do believe that."}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 52, "text": "The parent in the new novel is very - I find her a very sympathetic character. I mean, she clearly, like, loves her daughter so much and is trying so hard not to be the intrusive parent, you know, to have the right amount of connection and distance. But, you know, it's always hard to find, and as Aza says to her at one point - Aza says to her mother, I'm doing my best, but I can't stay sane for you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 53, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I think as parents, we desperately want to take pain away from our kids, and we want to - I want to save my kids from all the hurt that the world has in it, and you can't. And there's so"}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 54, "text": "And your kids aren't even teenagers yet.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I do think that is probably a result of this change in my life that has caused me to suddenly be tremendously sympathetic to the parental point of view."}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 55, "text": "I kept thinking about the parent in the book because Aza's father died years ago, and so Aza's mother is a widow, and now she's worried she's going to lose her daughter to mental illness or lose her to other problems. I'm trying not to give too much away here.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. God, no. They're 7 and 4, so I have a long way to go."}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 56, "text": "So - and I really just kind of sympathized with her and admired how hard she was trying to have the right amount of connection with her daughter without being too pushy or smothering her or being overprotective.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 57, "text": "I want to quote something that Aza, your teenage character, says in the book or thinks in the book. (Reading) I hated my body. It disgusted me - its hair, its pinpricks of sweat, its scrawniness, skin pulled over a skeleton, an animated corpse. I wanted out, out of my body, out of my thoughts, out. But I was stuck inside of this thing like all of the bacteria colonizing me. Is this a feeling you understand, of, like, hating your body and feeling kind of disgusted by it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's really hard. I think it's so - you know, parenting a teenager - I can only imagine how hard it is. The great thing about having little kids is that at least you can solve their problems. Yo"}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 58, "text": "Sure. And there's times you probably want to trade in your brain also, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, definitely. I mean, for much of my life, I felt like I had to carry around this skin-encased bacterial colony in order to have a mind and a consciousness, you know? And also, I've often felt lik"}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 59, "text": "Clean out the obsessive thoughts. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely, yeah. No, I mean, there's probably more times when I want to trade in my brain."}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 60, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. To be completely honest, like, it would be great to be able to, like, turn my brain into the mechanic and, like, have them just, like, fix some stuff up and then give it back to me."}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 61, "text": "So I read that you said you were bullied when you were in - I don't know - junior high or high school - anything in particular you were bullied for, you know, that you were mocked for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That would be great."}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 62, "text": "They don't tell you as they're reading you up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I don't really know. They don't seem to need a great reason."}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 63, "text": "Did you fight back?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Yeah. It wasn't - that would have been nice, though, if they could have, like, sent a note that just explained, like, here are the three things you're being bullied for. And if you could work o"}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 64, "text": "I never would have expected that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. This is going to surprise you, Terry, but I'm not really super-able to fight back."}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 65, "text": "And when did you realize you wanted to write?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I'm not a boxer."}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 66, "text": "But were they read by anybody is the question.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I always liked writing, but I thought of it like being an astronaut or being a professional athlete or something. I never thought of it as a realistic career goal. And in some ways, I still have"}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 67, "text": "Why were you starting to read a lot of young adult books then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah, not all of them, certainly. But that's when I started to feel like, OK. Well, being - it's not quite like being a professional athlete or being an astronaut. Like, this is something that r"}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 68, "text": "Oh, they asked you to read the young adult books.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think partly because I was the youngest person at Booklist, so I was the closest thing they had to a young adult."}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 69, "text": "So you were reviewing young adult fiction and then decided you wanted to write it, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, but I also think..."}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 70, "text": "That makes sense. Why does that seem like a good fit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "1247170311", "date": "2024-04-26", "guest": "Cree Cicchino", "title": "Novelist John Green says OCD is like an 'invasive weed' inside his mind", "question_index": 71, "text": "John Green, it's been great to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, there are a bunch of reasons, I think. I like the way that young adult books are published. I like that science fiction and mystery and romance all live on the shelf together, you know, "}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today we remember writer Paul Auster. He died Tuesday of complications from lung cancer. He was 77. In his New York Times obituary, he was described as the patron saint of literary Brooklyn, one of the signature New York writers of his generation. He's also been called the dean of postmodernists. Writer Meghan O'Rourke described Auster as remarkably good at getting at the texture of solitude, at telling stories about the lonely mind, evoking the almost supernatural corners of life. His books include \"The New York Trilogy,\" \"Moon Palace,\" \"Leviathan\" and \"The Book Of Illusions.\" He also wrote screenplays, including for two films starring Harvey Keitel, \"Smoke\" and \"Lulu On The Bridge.\" In his memoir, \"Winter Journal,\" he wrote about the history of his body, describing his scars, smoking habit, travels, home, near-death experiences and entering what he described as the winter of his life. I spoke with Auster about that memoir when it was published in 2012. We'll hear that interview a little later, along with an interview we recorded in 2004. Let's start with our 1997 interview. He'd just written a memoir called \"Hand To Mouth\" about his early efforts as a writer and the odd jobs he did to make a living. Here he is reading from the opening of \"Hand To Mouth.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 1, "text": "You had a lot of jobs during your so-called hand-to-mouth period, from being a teenager to - you know, through your 20s, when you weren't able to really make a living through your writing. Of all those jobs, what was the most meaningful, and what was the most meaningless?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) In my late 20s and early 30s, I went through a period of several years when everything I touched turned to failure. My marriage ended in divorce. My work as a writer foundered and I was over"}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 2, "text": "You had an offer to write pornography, but you couldn't do that very long. What was your problem?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the most meaningful job, at least the one that I learned the most from, would probably have been working on the oil tanker, but, of course, that lasted longer than most of the other jobs I had"}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 3, "text": "That's great, but you couldn't try that yourself.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I tried. I tried. I just couldn't think of enough adjectives to keep going. I think I was even combing through a thesaurus to try to liven things up. But I did later, I must say, meet up with someone,"}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 4, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I guess I just never thought of that."}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 5, "text": "At some point, you decided to try writing a detective novel. You'd read a lot of detective fiction, I guess thought you could do it yourself and that it would be saleable. Tell me more about why you decided to head in that direction 'cause in the past, what you'd published was your plays, poetry, translations.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wasn't equipped to do this job."}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 6, "text": "That interview with paul auster was recorded in 1997. Auster died Tuesday at the age of 77. We'll hear an excerpt of my 2004 interview with him after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, indeed, he liked it and set out to publish it, but he was not much of a businessman either. And the book was printed. But by the time it was done, he had no money left, he had no distributor. And"}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 7, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're remembering writer Paul Auster, who died Tuesday. Our next interview with him is from 2004, when a lot of NPR listeners knew him as the editor and on-air voice of its National Story Project. The occasion for this interview was the publication of his novel \"Oracle\" about a writer whose recent illness has left him without the energy or focus to write or do much of anything until he finds a seemingly magical notebook. The stories he writes in it take on an odd and inexplicable connection to his actual life. Paul Auster, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Now, the last time we spoke was in September of 2002. And that interview ended on a kind of dramatic note", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, indeed, he liked it and set out to publish it, but he was not much of a businessman either. And the book was printed. But by the time it was done, he had no money left, he had no distributor. And"}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 8, "text": ". We were running out of time. And just as we were running out of time, we were talking a little bit about how you had reached that stage in life where many people you know and who you had been close to had died, and you were discussing how it affected you. And then you said something that I didn't have time to ask you about because we ran out of time. Let me play back what you said.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, indeed, he liked it and set out to publish it, but he was not much of a businessman either. And the book was printed. But by the time it was done, he had no money left, he had no distributor. And"}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 9, "text": "Why not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm not really gloomy about it at all."}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, Paul, that's where our interview ended in September of 2002 'cause the clock ran out", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm just trying to get the most out of the time that's left to me. I hope it's still many years, but I can't bank on that at all. And every day becomes more precious than the one before. And, you know"}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm just trying to get the most out of the time that's left to me. I hope it's still many years, but I can't bank on that at all. And every day becomes more precious than the one before. And, you know"}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 12, "text": "But this is what I've been wondering. You know, one would like to think that when you survive a car crash like that and you see your life in a different way, that that stays with you and that life gains this new sense of preciousness, which you retain and continue to retain. But how long did that perspective actually last, that constant sense of the preciousness and also the precariousness of life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The clock ran out. Boy, do I remember that well. I mean, just hearing myself talk about the accident brings it all back as if it were yesterday."}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 13, "text": "Oh, no", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it hasn't gone away because since I talked to you last time, all kinds of other near misses have taken place."}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it hasn't gone away because since I talked to you last time, all kinds of other near misses have taken place."}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 15, "text": "Those are the pussycats. You only...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just about two months ago, maybe three months ago - I guess it was October. When it was starting to get cold here in New York, I turned on the heating system in our house, which is natural gas. There'"}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, you know, death is hovering in the background throughout your new book and, you know, so it is the precarious and unpredictable nature of life. It's constantly acknowledged. Of course, different characters react to this type of thing in different ways. And, you know, I'm even wondering, like, after the car crash - your whole family was in this car - did you find that everybody in the family had a different experience of the car crash and that it changed their life in different ways? You know, for instance, I'm thinking it's the kind of thing that can give you the sense of renewal. Like, well, I lived through this, so now I'm kind of free to do anything.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know. I think I'm using my number pretty quickly."}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 17, "text": "Or it can paralyze you out of fear that it could happen again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 18, "text": "You seem to be someone who is just filled with stories. I mean, even like your novels, they have stories within stories. So it's not just one story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I can tell you that each one of the three of us has had a different response, I guess. Our daughter was asleep in the back seat without a seat belt on but lying on a quilt with pillows. And I do"}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 19, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. They're bouncing off of each other."}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 20, "text": "You have an artifact from the past within the book, and it's a page from a Warsaw telephone directory from 1937, 1938.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm very interested in - I don't know - what you might call the magnetic field that is created by rubbing two stories against each other and the kind of sparks that are emitted and the way it can lead"}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 21, "text": "Would you explain what that page means to your character and what that page means to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 22, "text": "And why did you want to actually reprint that page, not refer to it, but to have a copy of that page?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was given that book on a trip to Warsaw in 1998 by my Polish publisher. He wanted to give me something special, he said. And he found this telephone book. In it is somebody with my name. There"}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 23, "text": "I want to end close to the note that we started on. And we started on, you know, the fact of the car crash that you and your wife and daughter were in. And then you talked about how the boiler was on fire in your home and could have burned the house down.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because the novel uses both fact and fiction. There are many historical events that are referred to. There are actually footnotes in the book, as you know, in which there are bibliographic references,"}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 24, "text": "I'll remind our listeners who might not know this that when you were young in summer Camp, a friend of yours was struck by lightning. Do you think that there are some people in this world who have these kind of close encounters a lot and other people who don't?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 25, "text": "It's the way your fiction works, too - very mysterious.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's possible. But getting back to what I was doing for NPR, a few years ago, the National Story Project. I was amazed at how many people had had these kinds of experiences. I think every life i"}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 26, "text": "Paul Auster, thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's possible. But getting back to what I was doing for NPR, a few years ago, the National Story Project. I was amazed at how many people had had these kinds of experiences. I think every life i"}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 27, "text": "Paul Auster recorded in 2004. He died Tuesday. After a break, we'll hear the interview I recorded with him after the publication of his 2012 memoir \"Winter Journal.\" And film critic Justin Chang will review the new action-comedy \"The Fall Guy,\" starring Ryan Gosling and Emily Blunt. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me on again."}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 28, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today we're remembering the novelist, memoirist and screenwriter Paul Auster. He died Tuesday at the age of 77. When I spoke with him in 2012, he'd written a memoir that reflected on his life by focusing on the history of his body from his childhood on. He described his pleasure, scars, smoking habit, travels, homes and near-death experiences. The memoir was titled \"Winter Journal,\" a reference to reaching his mid-60s and entering what he described as the winter of his life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me on again."}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 29, "text": "Paul Auster, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Let's start with a short reading from \"Winter Journal,\" and this is from the beginning of the book. We've condensed it a little bit.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me on again."}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 30, "text": "That's Paul Auster reading from the beginning of his new memoir, \"Winter Journal.\" Why did you want to write a sensory catalog, including a mention of all the times you needed to empty your bladder and no toilet was at hand?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) You think it will never happen to you, that it cannot happen to you, that you are the only person in the world to whom none of these things will ever happen, and then, one by one, they all b"}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 31, "text": "Not all the times.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not all the times."}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 32, "text": "Referring to them, giving them a shout", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just one time."}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 33, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just one time."}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 34, "text": "Now, a lot of the book really is about your body in a lot of ways, you know, like, things that have happened to it, times you've nearly died. You write about sexuality without writing explicitly about it, but, you know, about sexual feelings, panic attacks, so on, and I think some people just take their bodies for granted and live in them, you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know why I wrote the book. I never know why I do anything I do. I guess I did it because I wanted to, and somehow the idea felt very compelling to me and I went with it. And I thought, well, i"}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 35, "text": "And other people - yes. Honestly, I think I've met people like that, and other people just have things happen to their bodies, some more frequently than others, and end up having to think about their bodies a lot, above and beyond sexual arousal.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Really?"}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 36, "text": "Hey. You don't have to rationalize it for me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You see - well, you see, I really thought of this book as a history of my body. That was the working idea and I launched into it with that in mind, but, you see, there's also a very long section about"}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 37, "text": "But, I guess, have you always been just aware of being housed in a body, sometimes a cranky body?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's OK. No, it's all right. Thanks."}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 38, "text": "In that period where you were diagnosed with celiac, that's, you know, a very terrible, life-threatening reaction to gluten, to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I think I was not so well when I was a small child. I had some kinds of stomach problems. I don't even know what it was. At the time, they called it celiac, but it couldn't have been celiac becau"}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 39, "text": "...Wheat and other grains containing gluten, so you were on a very limited diet. You said you lived on, like, almost bananas...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 40, "text": "...Solely for 2 1/2 years.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I lived on bananas."}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 41, "text": "So were you brought up with the message, like, Paul, you're not normal, you can't eat what other people eat, you're not like the other children, you're not like other people, you must be protected?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Bananas, bananas, so many bananas that, as I say in the book, I can't stand the sight or the smell of them, and I haven't tasted one in 60 years now."}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 42, "text": "You know, when talking about your body when you got active in sports, you loved, what, football, baseball.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Probably, but, you see, most of those years are before I have consolidated memories of those years, so I can't consciously say to myself, my mother said this, because I don't remember. What I remember"}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 43, "text": "Yeah. But you hated fighting - physical fighting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Baseball, football, basketball. I played everything, yeah."}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 44, "text": "What was your way out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Because it was too emotionally overwhelming. You know, the kinds of angers that are part of fist fights and wrestling and confrontations between boys when you're young are so intense, and the emo"}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 45, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The way out was kneeing people in the balls. I figured this out."}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 46, "text": "One of the things we've talked about before on the show which you write about in the book is a car accident that you were in. You were at the driver's - at the - you were driving. Your wife was in the front seat, your daughter in the back, along with the dog.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it would end the fight in five seconds. And as I say in the book, well, I got a reputation as a dirty fighter. Perhaps that's true, but it only was because I didn't want to fight. And after I did "}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 47, "text": "And you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 48, "text": "We've talked about it. You've talked about it twice actually.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, you and I talked about it once on the radio. Yes."}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 49, "text": "Once we - you brought it up at the very end of the interview.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 50, "text": "Then we had to end. Our time was up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's true."}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 51, "text": "This is the first time I've written about it. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then you wanted to talk again. And then - so this is the first time I've written about it."}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 52, "text": "...It's - you know, it's gripping even knowing the story and the outcome, but I just wonder, like, if the story keeps changing in your mind, I know, you know, sometimes what you're remembering is the memory of a memory.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, all these years later."}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 53, "text": "And, like, the actuality of the experience keeps, you know, fading away and you wonder, like, how accurately am I remembering it? Are you aware of the story of that really traumatic incident changing over time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course."}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 54, "text": "But you still don't drive.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not this particular one, and I'm sure there are details that have changed and I'm not even aware of them, but it's only 10 years ago, so it's not the distant past. I know there are things that I've di"}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 55, "text": "How has that changed your life, to not drive?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I don't want to. I've lost all confidence in myself since then 'cause I had been driving for many years, ever since I was 17, and I was 55 when this accident took place, meaning that all my life, "}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 56, "text": "We're listening to my 2012 interview with writer Paul Auster. We'll hear more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not at all, because I live in New York City and you don't need a car here, so it really doesn't make any difference."}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 57, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're remembering writer Paul Auster. He died Tuesday at the age of 77. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with him in 2012, after the publication of his memoir, \"Winter Journal.\" So we're talking about how your new book is in part a book about your body and some of the abuse that it's taken, some of the pleasure that it's had. There's a chapter about your mother, and it's in part about your mother's body, in the sense that you are the second person to see her body after she died. Her house cleaner called you and said that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not at all, because I live in New York City and you don't need a car here, so it really doesn't make any difference."}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 58, "text": "...Your mother was dead, and you went right over. This is a strange question, but what was the difference between getting the news that she was dead and actually seeing her body?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 59, "text": "Was that in part so that that memory wouldn't be the primary memory visually of your mother?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was a surprising death, in that she hadn't been ill. I was not prepared for it. You know, when a parent has been ill with a disease and one is prepared, then you have a different response to "}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 60, "text": "But you were surprised at yourself. You didn't cry.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. There was nothing conscious going on. Maybe - unconsciously, maybe you're right. I just have no idea what I was experiencing then. I was in such shock and it happened so unexpectedly, and there I "}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 61, "text": "And you seem to think in the book that you weren't experiencing what you were supposed to be experiencing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 62, "text": "Is this the panic attack where you thought you were dying?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As I say in the book, it seems that -'cause I do cry in life every once in a while. I tend to cry more over books and films than real events, but every once in a while, I've cried about things that ha"}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 63, "text": "So before that, you had thought - like, I don't know how many years before this it was. You thought you were having a heart attack...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I absolutely thought I was dying, and I actually felt my limbs turn to stone. It was a feeling I'd never experienced before and never again since, this feeling of death creeping up in my limbs. A"}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 64, "text": "...And that you were dying, but there was a sense of calm that came over you. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, right."}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 65, "text": "Oh, and also, after the first time, you thought, now that I've seen what a calm experience dying can be, I'm no longer afraid of death.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know. You see; I've had those two supposed near-death experiences, neither of which turned out to be serious. The first time, I was calm and accepting and ready to go. I thought, all right. This is "}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 66, "text": "And then you get this panic attack.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 67, "text": "And, like, you're terrified. You're screaming in fear.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 68, "text": "Well, I am.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. Well, we're all made of contradictions; aren't we? And..."}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 69, "text": "Does that disappoint you? I mean, do you wish - like, oh, as you get older, you should be getting, like, more consistent and figure out what you really think. And, you know, consistency is something that's really valued in this world, and it can be very hard to achieve. Like, I think we are very contradictory.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I keep discovering more and more in myself."}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 70, "text": "Well, I want to thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We are contradictory. All human beings are. We have multiple selves. We have different aspects of ourselves that come into play at different moments for different reasons. I think if we didn't contrad"}
{"id": "1248686515", "date": "2024-05-03", "guest": "Paul Auster", "title": "Remembering novelist, screenwriter and memoirist Paul Auster", "question_index": 71, "text": "Paul Auster, recorded in 2012. He died Tuesday at the age of 77. If you want to hear more of our interviews with Paul Auster, you'll find them on the FRESH AIR Archive website. Coming up, film critic Justin Chang reviews \"The Fall Guy,\" the new action-comedy starring Ryan Gosling and Emily Blunt. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's been a pleasure talking to you again. I'm glad you invited me, and thank you very much."}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today we remember the artist Frank Stella, whose work was regarded as revolutionary. He died of lymphoma Saturday. He was 87. His New York Times obituary describes him as, quote, \"a dominant figure in post-war American art, a restless, relentless innovator, whose explorations of color and form made him an outsized presence, endlessly discussed and constantly on exhibit,\" unquote. Stella is considered one of the fathers of the minimalist art of the 1960s. His early revolutionary work in the late '50s was a series of Black Paintings, black stripes separated with thin stripes of blank white canvas. The austerity of those paintings contrasted with the bold brush strokes and drips of abstract expressionism. Art critic Peter Schjeldahl described Stella's impact on abstract expressionism as, quote, \"something like Dylan's on music and Warhol's on more or less everything,\" unquote. In the '60s, Stella moved on to geometrical paintings in vivid contrasting colors. His work continued to evolve with paintings and abstract sculptures on a large scale. He sometimes used computer technology to generate images that he incorporated into his work. Stella was also admired for his ideas about art. In the mid-'80s, he gave the prestigious Norton lectures at Harvard University. Later we'll hear an interview I recorded with Frank Stella in 2000. Let's start with our first interview from 1985. In the first answer, he refers to Emile de Antonio, who made the 1972 documentary \"Painters Painting.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 1, "text": "The Black Paintings were very controversial. Emile de Antonio, who had one of your early Black Paintings tells a story of that...", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 2, "text": "Oh, did he? Well, he tells a story of how a couple of friends came over, saw the Black Painting, and one of them threw some recently acquired ether on it, and the other poured her drink over it because they thought it was some kind of joke or something.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And sold it."}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 3, "text": "When you were doing the Black Paintings, were you uninterested in color at the time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, or an affront, yes. That happened. I mean, I guess they were - you know, I guess they struck some people as being aggressively simple. I mean, I think that it's possible to see them or it was po"}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 4, "text": "When did you know that you wanted to start working with really brash colors?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I was really learning how to paint, and I was really beginning. So I didn't have any particular stake in color one way or the other. To me, the Black Paintings were, you know, obviousl"}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 5, "text": "What kind of paints have you used for your color paintings?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And when he said that, I started thinking about, you know, you can't - first I had made black paintings and then aluminum and then copper. And then I started to think about color. And the only - as so"}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 6, "text": "So you must mix your colors like people in paint stores do? You take big cans and you shake them up a lot, right? It's not like working on a palette, which is the traditional way of doing it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I've used all kinds, but I mean, I find it very hard to restrict myself to what are called artists' colors. I mean, I use a lot of commercial paint, and maybe it's just a habit that I picked up "}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 7, "text": "Can you tell us how you started getting interested in geometric form as the subject matter for your paintings?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, right. Yeah. I mean, Robert Rauschenberg has said the whole world is his palette, but I used my whole studio floor as the palette. But basically, yeah. It's a big palette. You go from can to ca"}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 8, "text": "Painting sometimes becomes decoration when, you know, when it's purchased to put on your wall in the living room. What do you think of painting as decoration? I know it's a thought that upsets a lot of artists and that other artists find perfectly pleasing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I never thought about that very much. I mean, when I was in school, particularly at Philips Academy. I mean, we had a studio course, and we studied art history. And I mean, when I saw Mondri"}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 9, "text": "You've never been a realist painter. Could you do a realist rendering if you wanted to? I mean, do you have the skill for that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, the aim of art is to be more than decoration. I mean, if it's used decoratively, what can you say? I mean, if somebody likes something, you can't stop them from buying it, and if they de"}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 10, "text": "Did that ever upset you when you wanted to become an artist? Did you ever think that someone was going to come in and test you and say, hey, we love your work, but prove to us that that you can really, you know, do a rendering?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Truly if I had to draw a picture now of Mickey Mouse, I would fail."}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 11, "text": "A lot of modern art has sought after originality, to try something new, to have a breakthrough concept or something. Do you think that we put too much of a premium on originality in art? How valuable do you think that is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it never crossed my mind. I mean, I could see - I mean, I never had - I don't - I - to this day, I don't understand what illustration has to do with making art. It just - you know, there doesn't s"}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 12, "text": "There's an image of the artist as being heroic and romantic. And I think it's an image that was especially expressed through the work of the abstract expressionists and through the way some of them lived their lives. What do you think of that notion of the artist as the hero or the romantic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, if it's really original, it's great. You know, the big thing in the critical literature is to make a distinction between novelty and originality. It's hard to know what's original. I don't thi"}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 13, "text": "Why do you think you have that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I don't have much interest in that. I mean, I don't feel that artistic. I mean, I feel like a painter when I'm working on the problem of making a painting. But, you know, it's not, I mean, I"}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 14, "text": "Frank Stella recorded in 1985. He died Saturday. I spoke with him again in 2000. We'll hear that interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, I don't like to - I mean, I find it offensive to think of myself as an artist, I mean, or an artistic personality. I mean, if someone said, well, you have some kind of sensitivity that o"}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to our remembrance of Frank Stella. The second time I spoke with him was in 2000. At the time, he was creating large, vividly colored sculptures that sharply contrasted with the black canvases that made him famous and controversial in the '50s.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, I don't like to - I mean, I find it offensive to think of myself as an artist, I mean, or an artistic personality. I mean, if someone said, well, you have some kind of sensitivity that o"}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 16, "text": "Your work has changed so much since the late '50s when the public became aware of your work. And you first became known for your black-striped paintings, and these were paintings that helped launch the minimalist movement. Then you did color paintings that often used very geometrical forms. And then eventually, your work became, like, wildly colored with drips and brush strokes. And your work became more sculptural with a lot of, like, edges, and you started working with hard materials like metal. Do you feel that by starting with all-black and then by adding color and then adding more kind of wild elements to it that you stripped things down to a basic vocabulary of yours and then kind of added things to that vocabulary and built things up again?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, I don't like to - I mean, I find it offensive to think of myself as an artist, I mean, or an artistic personality. I mean, if someone said, well, you have some kind of sensitivity that o"}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 17, "text": "Did you feel like your early black canvases were a dare?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I suppose. I mean, you can imagine, I guess, a life story anyway you want. I mean, it starts with a lot of youthful enthusiasm and ends with mature wisdom, which is a simplification of anything happen"}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 18, "text": "What did you think were some of the most interesting on-track and off-track pieces of art criticism about your early work?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were, yes. I think they were. I mean, they were pretty aggressive, yeah. But, I mean, I was - but I felt very confident about them, yeah."}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 19, "text": "Artist Frank Stella is my guest. What was the impact on you to become famous and controversial when you were in your 20s and just starting off as a painter?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "unfortunately. But, you know, to me criticism is like - I don't know - a sport or entertainment or something. It's not, unfortunately, really serious for me."}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 20, "text": "When you were in your 20s, in the 1950s, it was a period when some of the very famous artists like Pollock were famous not only for their work but for their lifestyle. You know, a kind of Bohemian lifestyle...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, the thing about being famous, it never - I wasn't worried about it because the art world was a much smaller place and I had not much interest in fame. I liked other artists who were famous, "}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 21, "text": "...A lot of drinking and everything.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That's, like, a big deal about..."}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 22, "text": "You know, and some people in their attempt to be artists would emulate the lifestyle as well. Did that lifestyle mean anything to you? Is it...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, right, right. Yeah."}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 23, "text": "You grew up in, I think, a pretty middle-class family?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 24, "text": "Your father was a doctor, a gynecologist. And apparently, he worked as a house painter...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 25, "text": "...During the depression to put himself through college.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 26, "text": "And from what I've read, it sounds like occasionally, he'd, like, repaint the house you lived in.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 27, "text": "And you'd help him paint it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes. Yeah."}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 28, "text": "Did you enjoy the feel of house paint or the colors of house paint?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was in paint all my life, yes. Yeah."}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 29, "text": "And did you know that more from house paint than anything else?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I did. I liked it. I mean, I always liked paint - the physicality of it, yeah. It was never a problem for me. My mother was an artist, too, and she painted with oil, and my father painted with ho"}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 30, "text": "What's the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yeah. Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 31, "text": "So what connection did you see between, you know, the house painting and the Pollocks?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 32, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I thought, you know, painting a wall is a big physical expanse. You do it, and I could see most of the time that if you stop halfway through, where you were painting your wall, it would be a lot"}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 33, "text": "How did you get from, you know, painting walls to actually painting canvases?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And sort of have it half white and half red. But it was beautiful, and so I liked doing it. And I could easily see that you could make paintings like that."}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 34, "text": "Yet the impression I get from reading interviews with you is that you never studied the technique of representational art.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, I painted all my way through school. I mean, I went to Philips Academy in Andover and then I took art classes. And then when I was at Princeton, we had art teachers, you know, sort of no"}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 35, "text": "So how much did you actually do before abandoning it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's true. When I was at Philips Academy, you had to - there was an introductory course which consisted to the arts, to fine art. And that consisted of an art history course and a studio course. It "}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 36, "text": "How old were you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I did about 20 minutes."}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 37, "text": "And I'm surprised that your teacher just kind of allowed you to dismiss the technique like that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was probably 15."}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 38, "text": "No, no, what was it that made you realize that you just weren't about representational art? Was it a technical problem or or just like an aesthetic lack of interest?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Look, I was a wise guy. But you know, a lot of teachers have to deal with kids who are wise guys. I mean, but if you know what you're doing, I mean, it's like, you know, what are you going to do? You'"}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 39, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded with painter and sculptor Frank Stella in 2000. We'll hear more of the interview after a break as we continue our remembrance of Stella. He died Saturday. We'll also feature an interview with rock and roll guitarist Duane Eddy, who died last week, and hear Maureen Corrigan's review of Colm Toibin's sequel to his novel \"Brooklyn.\" I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I mean - I had representational art on my window. My mother painted Santa Claus on there, and she was always making paints. I saw representational art all the time. I wasn't very moved by it, but "}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 40, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're remembering painter and sculptor Frank Stella. He died Saturday of lymphoma. He was 87. He's famous for his revolutionary Black Paintings and was known as one of the fathers of minimalist art. But his art kept changing over the years, including geometric paintings with bold, contrasting colors and, later, large, colorful, abstract sculptures. That was the kind of work he was doing when I spoke with him the second time in 2000. Let's get back to that interview. Was there ever a point in your life where you said to yourself, I wish that I had studied representational technique and that I had more of that technique available to me?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I mean - I had representational art on my window. My mother painted Santa Claus on there, and she was always making paints. I saw representational art all the time. I wasn't very moved by it, but "}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 41, "text": "When you were a student, were you ever afraid that a teacher would think or fellow students would think that you were a fraud or something because you had skipped that whole step in the evolution of mastering representation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I didn't understand representational painting very much, and I probably wouldn't understand representational technique up to a point. But when I - you know, maybe 30 years later, when I saw "}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 42, "text": "Have you ever been through a period where you felt that you were at an artistic dead end and you knew that a series you were working on or a direction you were exploring was finished and you didn't know where you were heading yet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, fortunately, I wasn't a particularly successful student. So all of the other students were more successful or seemed better at it. But I wasn't worried. I mean, the issue of being a fraud - you "}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 43, "text": "What did you do during that interim where you weren't sure what was next but you knew what you had been doing was finished?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A couple of times, yeah."}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 44, "text": "Why? Why pretend? Was that for your own benefit...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I pretended it wasn't a problem."}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 45, "text": "...Or so the people around you wouldn't lose confidence?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yes."}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 46, "text": "So you got to keep that to yourself if there's any doubt.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, for everybody. Yes. Yeah. Art is a little bit like a performing art. And if performers, athletes or singers or performers, whatever it is - if you communicate to those around you or outside of "}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 47, "text": "How'd you learn that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. It's better. Yeah. One thing I learned early on was never to - no matter how bad my painting was or - never to say anything bad about my own work."}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 48, "text": "Well, there's also a real stock market factor in the art - in arts, you know, where, like, somebody's stock, the actual price of their paintings fluctuates, goes up and down over the course of their career depending on, I guess, a lot of different variables. Has that been something that's kind of - that you found more amusing or disturbing, that kind of stock market fluctuation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because you - say you make a casual remark to a friend about you don't like this part of your painting, some little, trivial thing. And then, you know, a couple of weeks later, you'll hear from a muse"}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 49, "text": "I want to, if it's OK with you, ask you about your finger.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. It's just a reality, and it's a struggle. I mean, I've been up and down and up and down, and it's still the same. It hasn't actually really changed very much for me. It's still very hard to keep i"}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 50, "text": "You have one finger that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's OK. Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 51, "text": "What happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I have a crushed left hand. Yeah. I have - one finger is half, and the - a couple of the other fingers are damaged. Yeah. It's a crush injury from when I was 10 years old."}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 52, "text": "And were the parts of your finger amputated on the spot, or was that done surgically afterwards, or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A concrete urn in the yard was toppled over onto my hand. That's all. It was a crush injury."}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 53, "text": "And you work - you do a lot of physical work. It's never interfered with it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Well, when it's crushed, it turns black. I mean, eventually, they had to cut it off. Yeah. I went to the hospital. Yeah."}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 54, "text": "And it's your left hand that was crushed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. But I'm right-handed, so it's not..."}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 55, "text": "So you're OK with that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 56, "text": "And I think - did that get you out of the military?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's not a problem."}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 57, "text": "How did you feel?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, indirectly, it did. Yeah. And I wasn't thinking about it, but there was a turning point in my artistic career because when I left school, when I graduated from Princeton, I went to New York "}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 58, "text": "Were there things you had to face in the studio that you didn't feel ready to face yet because you thought you were putting all of that off till after your tour of duty?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I felt weird, actually. I mean, I was happy not to be in the Army. And then I suddenly realized that I was going to go back to New York, to my studio. I didn't have a career ahead of me in the A"}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 59, "text": "Do a lot of young artists want advice from you and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, no. I don't know. I mean, I didn't - it wasn't a problem. I don't know. I just went back to my studio and kept on painting. You know, life at that age was nice. You know, New York was sort o"}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 60, "text": "How do you keep yourself isolated from that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't see too many young artists. They don't - no. I haven't had anyone ask me for advice, actually. I don't think anyone has ever asked me for advice."}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 61, "text": "Well, Frank Stella, I want to thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. Maybe I just don't attract the kind of people that need advice. I don't know. I'm not sure."}
{"id": "1250190144", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Frank Stella", "title": "Remembering minimalist painter and sculptor Frank Stella", "question_index": 62, "text": "Frank Stella recorded on Fresh Air in 2000. He died of lymphoma Saturday. He was 87. We have another remembrance coming up. Duane Eddy, one of the most influential early rock 'n' roll guitarists, died last week. We'll feature a 1988 interview with him after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. It was fun."}
{"id": "1250191828", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Duane Eddy", "title": "Remembering rock and roll guitarist Duane Eddy", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1250191828", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Duane Eddy", "title": "Remembering rock and roll guitarist Duane Eddy", "question_index": 1, "text": "One of the most influential guitarists in early rock 'n' roll, Duane Eddy, died last week. He was 86. He was one of the first instrumentalists to become a rock 'n' roll star. His New York Times obituary describes him as having, quote, \"played a major role in establishing electric guitar as the predominant musical instrument in rock 'n' roll.\" His hits included \"Ramrod\" and \"Forty Miles Of Bad Road.\" His first top 10 hit was this one, \"Rebel-'Rouser.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1250191828", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Duane Eddy", "title": "Remembering rock and roll guitarist Duane Eddy", "question_index": 2, "text": "I spoke with Duane Eddy in 1988. His hits from the '50s and '60s had been reissued on CD, and he'd just released his first new album in a decade. When he was a teenager in Phoenix, Ariz., Duane Eddy was playing country music at local clubs. But in 1955, when Elvis Presley's music hit Phoenix, it was easy to switch over to rock 'n' roll.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1250191828", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Duane Eddy", "title": "Remembering rock and roll guitarist Duane Eddy", "question_index": 3, "text": "I read somewhere that some of your early records were cut in a studio that didn't have an echo chamber so that you faked one.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I always said most rock 'n' roll is country music with drums. And you had a drummer and maybe a saxophone player, too, in those days, and you were doing rock 'n' roll."}
{"id": "1250191828", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Duane Eddy", "title": "Remembering rock and roll guitarist Duane Eddy", "question_index": 4, "text": "You had hit records of the themes from \"Peter Gunn\" and from Paladin. Was it your idea to record those?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no. I actually didn't fake it. What we did was we went out and bought a big, several-thousand-gallon water tank and put a speaker in one end and a mic in the other, and that was our echo. And I "}
{"id": "1250191828", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Duane Eddy", "title": "Remembering rock and roll guitarist Duane Eddy", "question_index": 5, "text": "Why did you retire from music? And when did you first retire from music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not \"Peter Gunn.\" That was the sax player's, Steve Douglas. He came in one day and wanted to do it in an album. We were in the midst of our second album, and he had this idea. He'd worked it out on sa"}
{"id": "1250191828", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Duane Eddy", "title": "Remembering rock and roll guitarist Duane Eddy", "question_index": 6, "text": "Your new album is your first album in America in a long time. A couple of the songs on the new album are in a minor key and have this mysterious sound to them that really almost reminds me of certain TV themes, Westerns or spy shows. And I wonder if you feel that way, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when my record stopped selling, I sort of retired. It was mandatory retirement, although in 1970, I tried a record called \"Freight Train\" with Jimmy Bowen producing. And it had gotten the top 10"}
{"id": "1250191828", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Duane Eddy", "title": "Remembering rock and roll guitarist Duane Eddy", "question_index": 7, "text": "You must have, over the years, heard many guitarists who obviously patterned their sound on yours. And I wonder what you think about when you hear that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think most everything on the album could fit as a theme for some TV show or movie. We called one song Jeff Lynn wrote - called it \"Theme For Something Really Important\" because couldn't come u"}
{"id": "1250191828", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Duane Eddy", "title": "Remembering rock and roll guitarist Duane Eddy", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, I wish you the best with your new album, and I thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm really knocked out when I hear that. That got me through a lot of lean years when I thought everybody had forgotten about me. And things weren't going very well and all that sort of thing that hap"}
{"id": "1250191828", "date": "2024-05-09", "guest": "Duane Eddy", "title": "Remembering rock and roll guitarist Duane Eddy", "question_index": 9, "text": "My interview with Duane Eddy was recorded in 1988. He died last week. He was 86. After we take a short break, Maureen Corrigan will review Colm Toibin's new novel \"Long Island,\" a sequel to his best-selling novel \"Brooklyn.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you."}
{"id": "1250438750", "date": "2024-05-10", "guest": "Hoa Xuande", "title": "Author Viet Thanh Nguyen discusses 'The Sympathizer' and his escape from Vietnam", "question_index": 0, "text": "Viet Thanh Nguyen, welcome to FRESH AIR. Why did you want to write this novel from the point of view of a spy?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Viet Thanh Nguyen tells part of his own story in an essay at the back of his book. His parents grew up in the North of Vietnam. When the country was divided in the mid-1950s, with the North under comm"}
{"id": "1250438750", "date": "2024-05-10", "guest": "Hoa Xuande", "title": "Author Viet Thanh Nguyen discusses 'The Sympathizer' and his escape from Vietnam", "question_index": 1, "text": "The war in Vietnam was central to your whole family's story. Your parents are from the North of Vietnam and fled to the South in the mid-'50s when the country was divided. They were teenagers then. Why did they choose to leave North Vietnam and flee to the South?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when my agent told me I should write a novel, the first thing that came to me was a spy novel, and partly, it was because it's a genre that I really enjoy, and I wanted to write a novel that was"}
{"id": "1250438750", "date": "2024-05-10", "guest": "Hoa Xuande", "title": "Author Viet Thanh Nguyen discusses 'The Sympathizer' and his escape from Vietnam", "question_index": 2, "text": "Did - your parents were teenagers when they left North Vietnam for the South. Did their families come with them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they were part of a great migration of about 800,000 North Vietnamese Catholics who had been persuaded by their parish priests that the communists were going to massacre them or at the very leas"}
{"id": "1250438750", "date": "2024-05-10", "guest": "Hoa Xuande", "title": "Author Viet Thanh Nguyen discusses 'The Sympathizer' and his escape from Vietnam", "question_index": 3, "text": "So in 1975, when Saigon fell, and your parents' town had already been taken over by the North Vietnamese, your family fled. So it was you, your parents and your brother.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my mother's family did go. So all my aunts on that side of the family and my grandparents on that side of the family went. My father's parents and his siblings decided to stay in North Vietnam. "}
{"id": "1250438750", "date": "2024-05-10", "guest": "Hoa Xuande", "title": "Author Viet Thanh Nguyen discusses 'The Sympathizer' and his escape from Vietnam", "question_index": 4, "text": "Most people form their earliest memories at around, I think, the age of 4 - 3 or 4. So, like, your earliest memories have to do with the war and with trying to escape and with being separated from your father. How do you think that affected your view of the world or your just, like - your basic identity?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean, the story was that in March 1975, my father had gone to Saigon on business, and my mother was at home in Buon Ma Thuot with myself, my brother and my adopted sister, who was the oldest s"}
{"id": "1250438750", "date": "2024-05-10", "guest": "Hoa Xuande", "title": "Author Viet Thanh Nguyen discusses 'The Sympathizer' and his escape from Vietnam", "question_index": 5, "text": "Did the family who was - did the family you were staying with take good care of you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I have vague images of pre-April 1975 Saigon which are not reliable. You know, for example, I thought I remembered that when we were on that boat leaving Saigon, that sailors were shooting at sm"}
{"id": "1250438750", "date": "2024-05-10", "guest": "Hoa Xuande", "title": "Author Viet Thanh Nguyen discusses 'The Sympathizer' and his escape from Vietnam", "question_index": 6, "text": "What happened to your 16-year-old adopted sister who was left behind?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I stayed with two families, if I remember right. And I think the first family was in a mobile home. They were young. They had no idea what to do with me. And now being the father of a 3-year-o"}
{"id": "1250438750", "date": "2024-05-10", "guest": "Hoa Xuande", "title": "Author Viet Thanh Nguyen discusses 'The Sympathizer' and his escape from Vietnam", "question_index": 7, "text": "That's funny, actually, that the sister who gets left behind at the end of the war, you know, facing who knows what kind of doom, she's the one who knows how to have a good time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, she had to take care of the house, take care of the family business. And when the communists were already there, I mean, basically, what they did was, they seized the property, kicked "}
{"id": "1250438750", "date": "2024-05-10", "guest": "Hoa Xuande", "title": "Author Viet Thanh Nguyen discusses 'The Sympathizer' and his escape from Vietnam", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, well, I think that's one of the reasons why my parents think she's adopted and my brother and I are not because my brother and I are not good at having fun."}
{"id": "1250438750", "date": "2024-05-10", "guest": "Hoa Xuande", "title": "Author Viet Thanh Nguyen discusses 'The Sympathizer' and his escape from Vietnam", "question_index": 9, "text": "So after - what? - about three years or so, your family moved from Pennsylvania to San Jose. And why was there a big Vietnamese community there?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Writer Viet Thanh Nguyen - his Pulitzer Prize-winning novel, \"The Sympathizer,\" has been adapted into a new series on HBO and Max. Terry Gross spoke with him in 2016 - more after a break. This is FRES"}
{"id": "1250438750", "date": "2024-05-10", "guest": "Hoa Xuande", "title": "Author Viet Thanh Nguyen discusses 'The Sympathizer' and his escape from Vietnam", "question_index": 10, "text": "What are some of the things your parents sold in the Vietnamese grocery that you couldn't get in a supermarket?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there is a big Vietnamese community in San Jose because the weather was good, because one of the refugee camps for Vietnamese resettlement was in Camp Pendleton in San Diego. So there was a sign"}
{"id": "1250438750", "date": "2024-05-10", "guest": "Hoa Xuande", "title": "Author Viet Thanh Nguyen discusses 'The Sympathizer' and his escape from Vietnam", "question_index": 11, "text": "Your family fled South Vietnam to avoid the violence or persecution. But you write, the violence they sought to escape caught up with them 'cause once they - after they opened up their Vietnamese grocery store, they were shot one Christmas Eve during a holdup of their store. What happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, rice - I remember that we had just - my dad had built these racks and racks that were just stocked full of rice up into the rafters. And I remember going there after school and hiding up in thes"}
{"id": "1250438750", "date": "2024-05-10", "guest": "Hoa Xuande", "title": "Author Viet Thanh Nguyen discusses 'The Sympathizer' and his escape from Vietnam", "question_index": 12, "text": "Wow. It seems just so tragic that you have this community of Vietnamese people who have so much in common. They fled their country for the same reason. They're living together in a community to - in part, to avoid the kind of hostility they may face in the larger American culture. And then they hurt each other.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. I was very young when that happened, and I was probably less than 10 years old because I remember I was - it was Christmas Eve. I was watching \"Scooby-Doo Christmas\" (ph). My brother got"}
{"id": "1250438750", "date": "2024-05-10", "guest": "Hoa Xuande", "title": "Author Viet Thanh Nguyen discusses 'The Sympathizer' and his escape from Vietnam", "question_index": 13, "text": "Good point", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was a revolutionary war. It was a civil war, depending on how you look at it. And what that means is that Vietnamese people were already hurting each other in Vietnam. They'd had a long tradi"}
{"id": "1250438750", "date": "2024-05-10", "guest": "Hoa Xuande", "title": "Author Viet Thanh Nguyen discusses 'The Sympathizer' and his escape from Vietnam", "question_index": 14, "text": ", right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was a revolutionary war. It was a civil war, depending on how you look at it. And what that means is that Vietnamese people were already hurting each other in Vietnam. They'd had a long tradi"}
{"id": "1250438750", "date": "2024-05-10", "guest": "Hoa Xuande", "title": "Author Viet Thanh Nguyen discusses 'The Sympathizer' and his escape from Vietnam", "question_index": 15, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Even before the French came."}
{"id": "1250438750", "date": "2024-05-10", "guest": "Hoa Xuande", "title": "Author Viet Thanh Nguyen discusses 'The Sympathizer' and his escape from Vietnam", "question_index": 16, "text": "So I want to get back to your parents being shot when you were 10. So you were watching \"Scooby-Doo Christmas,\" and you kind of initially paid no attention to it. You just wanted to watch your cartoon. And you don't know the circumstances of this shooting. I understand you were 10 then, but many years have elapsed since then. You've never asked your parents to tell you what happened.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The - you know, it's a hierarchical, feudal society. The Vietnamese were already exploiting each other. And then that was exacerbated by colonialism and American occupation - or intervention - however"}
{"id": "1250438750", "date": "2024-05-10", "guest": "Hoa Xuande", "title": "Author Viet Thanh Nguyen discusses 'The Sympathizer' and his escape from Vietnam", "question_index": 17, "text": "Were you afraid in the store after that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I've asked my parents certain kinds of questions that I thought were the important ones, you know, about their life in general. And then there's certain things that I have - I don't know if I've"}
{"id": "1250438750", "date": "2024-05-10", "guest": "Hoa Xuande", "title": "Author Viet Thanh Nguyen discusses 'The Sympathizer' and his escape from Vietnam", "question_index": 18, "text": "Do you remember when you started realizing that there was an enormous conflict in the United States about the war in Vietnam and that the war had really divided America?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University. Let's continue with Terry's 2016 interview with writer Viet Thanh Nguyen. His Pulitzer Prize-winning novel,"}
{"id": "1250438750", "date": "2024-05-10", "guest": "Hoa Xuande", "title": "Author Viet Thanh Nguyen discusses 'The Sympathizer' and his escape from Vietnam", "question_index": 19, "text": "Well, you kind of work that out a little bit in your new novel because the main character, the spy, after the fall of Saigon when he comes to the U.S., he ends up being an advisor on a film called \"The Hamlet\" that's very much modeled on \"Apocalypse Now.\" It's like your fictional version of \"Apocalypse Now.\" And in the acknowledgments for your book, you mention, like, a whole bunch of, like, books and movies that you, like, read or watched that have to do with \"Apocalypse Now.\" So your spy is, like, an advisor on this movie. What is expected of him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I knew that we were different as Vietnamese people really early. And, you know, soon after I came - we came to San Jose, Calif., - my parents had opened this grocery store. And I walked on that "}
{"id": "1250438750", "date": "2024-05-10", "guest": "Hoa Xuande", "title": "Author Viet Thanh Nguyen discusses 'The Sympathizer' and his escape from Vietnam", "question_index": 20, "text": "You know, one of the things you say about the war and Hollywood is that, like, this is one war where the losers get to write the story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he's an advisor on this movie, which is certainly, you know, clearly alluding to \"Apocalypse Now.\" But it's really a compilation of all the movies that I'd seen about the Vietnam War because \"Ap"}
{"id": "1250438750", "date": "2024-05-10", "guest": "Hoa Xuande", "title": "Author Viet Thanh Nguyen discusses 'The Sympathizer' and his escape from Vietnam", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, and that's one of the tremendous ironies, you know, that the United States lost the war, in fact, in 1975. But for the very same reason that the United States was able to wage a war in which it "}
{"id": "1250438750", "date": "2024-05-10", "guest": "Hoa Xuande", "title": "Author Viet Thanh Nguyen discusses 'The Sympathizer' and his escape from Vietnam", "question_index": 22, "text": "Of course, so many of the movies made about Vietnam are about the divisions in American about whether it was a just war or not and whether American soldiers committed atrocities or not.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's what we have to confront - right? - that American soft power is tremendously powerful, and it goes hand-in-hand with American hard power."}
{"id": "1250438750", "date": "2024-05-10", "guest": "Hoa Xuande", "title": "Author Viet Thanh Nguyen discusses 'The Sympathizer' and his escape from Vietnam", "question_index": 23, "text": "Do you see your novel \"The Sympathizer\" in part as an answer to that, as an alternative way of seeing the war, a way of seeing it through Vietnamese eyes as opposed to through American eyes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, and this is one of the things that people have a hard time getting their minds around. I often get questions, people saying, well, if you look at these Vietnam War movies, Americans come off rea"}
{"id": "1250438750", "date": "2024-05-10", "guest": "Hoa Xuande", "title": "Author Viet Thanh Nguyen discusses 'The Sympathizer' and his escape from Vietnam", "question_index": 24, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, absolutely. It's my revenge on Francis Ford Coppola."}
{"id": "1250438750", "date": "2024-05-10", "guest": "Hoa Xuande", "title": "Author Viet Thanh Nguyen discusses 'The Sympathizer' and his escape from Vietnam", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well, at least your book won the Pulitzer Prize", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...My revenge on Hollywood. And, you know, my lonely, small effort - not even lovely and small - many Vietnamese American artists and writers are doing very similar things to try to get Americans to u"}
{"id": "1250438750", "date": "2024-05-10", "guest": "Hoa Xuande", "title": "Author Viet Thanh Nguyen discusses 'The Sympathizer' and his escape from Vietnam", "question_index": 26, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...My revenge on Hollywood. And, you know, my lonely, small effort - not even lovely and small - many Vietnamese American artists and writers are doing very similar things to try to get Americans to u"}
{"id": "1250438750", "date": "2024-05-10", "guest": "Hoa Xuande", "title": "Author Viet Thanh Nguyen discusses 'The Sympathizer' and his escape from Vietnam", "question_index": 27, "text": "Your novel is written in the form of a confession, the confession of a North Vietnamese spy whose name we don't know. And I'm wondering if you read any confessions before writing this book or if you read what you describe as the discourse of steady groups, committees and parties - parties, as in, Communist Party, not, like, New Year's party.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Writer Viet Thanh Nguyen. His Pulitzer Prize-winning novel, \"The Sympathizer,\" has been adapted into a new series on HBO and Max. Terry Gross spoke with him in 2016 - more after a break. This is FRESH"}
{"id": "1250438750", "date": "2024-05-10", "guest": "Hoa Xuande", "title": "Author Viet Thanh Nguyen discusses 'The Sympathizer' and his escape from Vietnam", "question_index": 28, "text": "You write that your parents are prosperous; your brother is a doctor who leads a White House advisory committee on Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders; you're a professor; you're a novelist; you're a Pulitzer Prize winner. But, you say, our family's story is story of loss and death, for we are here only because the U.S. fought a war that killed 3 million of our countrymen, not counting over 2 million others who died in neighboring Laos and Cambodia. Do often think about what your life would've been like if your family had stayed in Vietnam?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, exactly. Well, you know, I certainly knew that the confession or the autobiographical self-criticism was a really important part of Chinese and Vietnamese communist efforts to reeducate - that'"}
{"id": "1250438750", "date": "2024-05-10", "guest": "Hoa Xuande", "title": "Author Viet Thanh Nguyen discusses 'The Sympathizer' and his escape from Vietnam", "question_index": 29, "text": "So your first name is Viet, which is, I think, a very common name for people from Vietnam. It's also the first half of the name of the country that you were born in, Vietnam. What does Viet mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, of course, and because I have my sister's story as an example. And I have the stories of many, many Vietnamese people who stayed behind or were left behind who are relatives of people who came t"}
{"id": "1250438750", "date": "2024-05-10", "guest": "Hoa Xuande", "title": "Author Viet Thanh Nguyen discusses 'The Sympathizer' and his escape from Vietnam", "question_index": 30, "text": "Really? Your parents changed their names.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But what's also interesting is that, you know, I've always understood that even as common as that name is - my name is for Vietnamese people here in the United States, it's obviously, for many America"}
{"id": "1250438750", "date": "2024-05-10", "guest": "Hoa Xuande", "title": "Author Viet Thanh Nguyen discusses 'The Sympathizer' and his escape from Vietnam", "question_index": 31, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, they have. They changed their names. I mean, in the Vietnamese community, they go by their Vietnamese names. But they're very pragmatic. As business people outside of that community, to do busin"}
{"id": "1250438750", "date": "2024-05-10", "guest": "Hoa Xuande", "title": "Author Viet Thanh Nguyen discusses 'The Sympathizer' and his escape from Vietnam", "question_index": 32, "text": "Well, Viet, thank you so much for talking with us. And congratulations on winning the Pulitzer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "See? You laughed. Nothing sounded right. Nothing sounded right except my own name. So I've always stayed with it despite the minor cost that it might have entailed in terms of not seeming to be quite "}
{"id": "1251546031", "date": "2024-05-15", "guest": "Gregg Carlstrom", "title": "Gaza will be 'one big displacement camp' for the foreseeable future, journalist says", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. To understand the war between Israel and Hamas, and its impact on the region, you have to know what's being said in private by leaders who are afraid to say those things in public. That includes Arab leaders, members of Netanyahu's war cabinet, the Israeli military and Gazans. That's part of what I'm going to talk about with Gregg Carlstrom, a Middle East correspondent for The Economist. We'll also talk about why some Arab leaders hate Hamas, fear Iran and have some sympathy for Israel, although not for how Israel is waging the war. Netanyahu doesn't have a political plan for running Gaza. We'll talk about the consequences of that and what life is likely to be like for Gazans in the future. Gregg Carlstrom has covered the Middle East for more than a decade. He's the author of the 2017 book, \"How Long Will Israel Survive?: The Threat From Within.\" When we recorded our interview yesterday, he was in Dubai where he's based. Gregg Carlstrom, welcome to FRESH AIR. Let's start with what people are saying in private but not in public. Are you hearing anything from the Israeli military?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "1251546031", "date": "2024-05-15", "guest": "Gregg Carlstrom", "title": "Gaza will be 'one big displacement camp' for the foreseeable future, journalist says", "question_index": 1, "text": "Are you hearing anything from members of the Knesset that they're not saying in public - or other political leaders in Israel?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What they've been saying in private for a while now, they have actually just - in the past few days started to say in public, and that is that the government has no strategy for this war. The Israel g"}
{"id": "1251546031", "date": "2024-05-15", "guest": "Gregg Carlstrom", "title": "Gaza will be 'one big displacement camp' for the foreseeable future, journalist says", "question_index": 2, "text": "Do you mean left in protest?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They are having the same debate that they have been having for months now if we're talking about members of the opposition, and that is, when should they leave this government? Benny Gantz, Gadi Eisen"}
{"id": "1251546031", "date": "2024-05-15", "guest": "Gregg Carlstrom", "title": "Gaza will be 'one big displacement camp' for the foreseeable future, journalist says", "question_index": 3, "text": "Let's talk about people in Gaza. Do you have any idea whether Hamas has become any more or less popular among people in Gaza during this war as they flee from one place to another to try to escape Israel's bombs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, they joined the government - the war cabinet, I should say - in October, as a show of support, but there was an understanding that that was meant to be a short term, not an indefinite show of sup"}
{"id": "1251546031", "date": "2024-05-15", "guest": "Gregg Carlstrom", "title": "Gaza will be 'one big displacement camp' for the foreseeable future, journalist says", "question_index": 4, "text": "You mentioned the difficulty of getting in touch with your contacts in Gaza. Can you talk about that a little bit? I imagine there's, like, no electricity to charge your phone. You might not even know where people are anymore because there's been so much ongoing displacement from one place to another to another to another.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'll say first, it's very hard to give a holistic picture of what people think in Gaza because it is so difficult right now to get in touch with people there. From my own conversations that I've had w"}
{"id": "1251546031", "date": "2024-05-15", "guest": "Gregg Carlstrom", "title": "Gaza will be 'one big displacement camp' for the foreseeable future, journalist says", "question_index": 5, "text": "An estimated 35,000 people have been killed or died of starvation in Gaza, and I'm wondering if there's any - I'm wondering what the reaction is in Israel to that, if you could speak to that at all. There had been a big peace movement in Israel. I don't know what's left of it right now, and I also don't know how much Israelis are concerned with the 35,000 people who have been, you know, casualties of this war.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In the first weeks and even the first couple of months, you didn't know where people were. Everyone that I spoke to in Gaza would tell you these harrowing stories of leaving their home, usually in the"}
{"id": "1251546031", "date": "2024-05-15", "guest": "Gregg Carlstrom", "title": "Gaza will be 'one big displacement camp' for the foreseeable future, journalist says", "question_index": 6, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Gregg Carlstrom. He's a Middle East correspondent for The Economist. We'll talk more after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think if you turn on the news in Israel - if you watch the evening news on any of their main television channels - you get a sense of how concerned people are, which is to say, not really at a"}
{"id": "1251546031", "date": "2024-05-15", "guest": "Gregg Carlstrom", "title": "Gaza will be 'one big displacement camp' for the foreseeable future, journalist says", "question_index": 7, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Gregg Carlstrom, a Middle East correspondent for The Economist. So I had asked you earlier what you're hearing from people that they're not willing to say in public, what you're hearing about the war. I want to ask you about Arab leaders. What are you hearing from some Arab leaders that they will not say in public about the war?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think if you turn on the news in Israel - if you watch the evening news on any of their main television channels - you get a sense of how concerned people are, which is to say, not really at a"}
{"id": "1251546031", "date": "2024-05-15", "guest": "Gregg Carlstrom", "title": "Gaza will be 'one big displacement camp' for the foreseeable future, journalist says", "question_index": 8, "text": "Why do some Arab leaders hate Hamas?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's a lot that they won't say in public. There's probably more that they won't say in public than they will say in public. Going back to the very beginning, I mean, speaking with a very senior Ara"}
{"id": "1251546031", "date": "2024-05-15", "guest": "Gregg Carlstrom", "title": "Gaza will be 'one big displacement camp' for the foreseeable future, journalist says", "question_index": 9, "text": "If you look at the same anonymous leaders that you're talking about, what are the reactions to Israel now? You say that some of them have sympathy for Israel, but not for the way Israel is carrying out this war. Can you elaborate on that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For most of them, it has to do with the fact that Hamas is an Islamist movement. It emerged from the Muslim Brotherhood - originally, its ideological background stems from the Muslim Brotherhood - and"}
{"id": "1251546031", "date": "2024-05-15", "guest": "Gregg Carlstrom", "title": "Gaza will be 'one big displacement camp' for the foreseeable future, journalist says", "question_index": 10, "text": "One of the reasons why Saudis want this agreement with Israel is because, in return, the U.S. would give or sell - I'm not sure which - more arms to the Saudis as part of the deal.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's a lot of frustration. You know, there was a hope - if you go back to before October 7, first of all, there was a real hope amongst the Gulf States in particular that they would continue to dee"}
{"id": "1251546031", "date": "2024-05-15", "guest": "Gregg Carlstrom", "title": "Gaza will be 'one big displacement camp' for the foreseeable future, journalist says", "question_index": 11, "text": "Why are the Saudis afraid that if Trump returns to office that the deal will be stopped? I mean, 'cause it plays off of the Abraham Accords, which were accomplished during the Trump administration. So why would Trump want to stop the progression of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's very self-interested for Saudi Arabia. I mean, if you actually look at the terms of this three-way deal, it's great for the Saudis. They get a defense treaty with the United States, which include"}
{"id": "1251546031", "date": "2024-05-15", "guest": "Gregg Carlstrom", "title": "Gaza will be 'one big displacement camp' for the foreseeable future, journalist says", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, we need to take another short break here. So let me reintroduce you. My guest is Gregg Carlstrom. He's a Middle East correspondent for The Economist. We'll be right back after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the Saudis have two concerns when it comes to Trump. The first is just that Trump is unpredictable. They have a deal right now that they have negotiated over a period of years with the Biden a"}
{"id": "1251546031", "date": "2024-05-15", "guest": "Gregg Carlstrom", "title": "Gaza will be 'one big displacement camp' for the foreseeable future, journalist says", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Gregg Carlstrom, a Middle East correspondent for The Economist. So we've been talking about Arab leaders and the interests of the Arab countries in the greater region and their reaction to the war. So some Arab states pay lip service to the cause of the Palestinians, but don't do anything to actually help them, or don't do much. For example, in Lebanon, Palestinians can't own property; they can't hold certain jobs; they don't have access to many government services. What do you perceive now, in terms of verbal support for Palestinians and actually doing more to help them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the Saudis have two concerns when it comes to Trump. The first is just that Trump is unpredictable. They have a deal right now that they have negotiated over a period of years with the Biden a"}
{"id": "1251546031", "date": "2024-05-15", "guest": "Gregg Carlstrom", "title": "Gaza will be 'one big displacement camp' for the foreseeable future, journalist says", "question_index": 14, "text": "Let's talk about Iran. Iran sponsors Hamas. Iran sponsors Hezbollah. But both of them have been attacking Israel. There are Arab leaders who are really afraid of Iran and what Iran might do. Iran has more fully entered into the picture in this war because in addition to supporting the militias - you know, in addition to supporting Hezbollah and Hamas - Iran attacked Israel after Israel killed an Iranian military leader who was based in Syria. That's when Iran sent, like, 300 drones to Israel. Most of those drones were taken down by the U.S. and other countries, but it was Iran directly entering the war in a way that it hadn't before. And that's causing a lot of concern around the world, but particularly, I think, for Arab leaders - obviously, particularly for Israel. But what are the Arab leaders' concerns about Iran right now that have been accentuated by Iran's entry into the war?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's all still lip service, as you say. With the exception of Jordan, which has more or less given equal rights to Palestinians, other states in the region tend to treat them terribly. That is"}
{"id": "1251546031", "date": "2024-05-15", "guest": "Gregg Carlstrom", "title": "Gaza will be 'one big displacement camp' for the foreseeable future, journalist says", "question_index": 15, "text": "Has Iran directly threatened any countries, like if it comes to assisting the U.S.? Like, Jordan helped shoot down similar drones in the Iranian attack on Israel. Did Iran threaten Jordan after that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They have a lot of concerns. And it was, I think, easy for some people to dismiss what happened last month - to dismiss this tit for tat between Iran and Israel - because the Iranian strike on Israel "}
{"id": "1251546031", "date": "2024-05-15", "guest": "Gregg Carlstrom", "title": "Gaza will be 'one big displacement camp' for the foreseeable future, journalist says", "question_index": 16, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Jordan did help. It played a very significant role, and Iran did threaten it. It wasn't the most direct threat, but it implicitly said, if we attack Israel again and you choose to get involved again, "}
{"id": "1251546031", "date": "2024-05-15", "guest": "Gregg Carlstrom", "title": "Gaza will be 'one big displacement camp' for the foreseeable future, journalist says", "question_index": 17, "text": "And in Gaza, Hamas, which is supported by Iran - they run the government. They run the territory. So it's not like they're part of the government. They are the government now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They have made it clear, and they have done other things subtly to send a message to Jordan that they would consider - I'm not sure they would consider striking Jordan directly, but trying to play gam"}
{"id": "1251546031", "date": "2024-05-15", "guest": "Gregg Carlstrom", "title": "Gaza will be 'one big displacement camp' for the foreseeable future, journalist says", "question_index": 18, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Gregg Carlstrom, Middle East correspondent for The Economist. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They have been. I think the question is whether they can remain that way. They started as a militant group carrying out attacks against Israelis. But in their early days, I don't think they had any as"}
{"id": "1251546031", "date": "2024-05-15", "guest": "Gregg Carlstrom", "title": "Gaza will be 'one big displacement camp' for the foreseeable future, journalist says", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Gregg Carlstrom, who's joining us from Dubai. He is a Middle East correspondent for The Economist. President Biden's national security adviser, Jake Sullivan, criticized the Netanyahu government this week for not having a political plan for the future of Gaza. Israel wants to wipe out Hamas. Hamas wants to wipe out Israel. So what might a political plan for the future of Gaza look like? President Biden says he'd like to see a two-state solution. A lot of people in the Middle East - a lot of leaders in the Middle East think, too late for that. That's dead. So do you think a two-state solution is still at all feasible? And if not, what are some of the alternatives that have been proposed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They have been. I think the question is whether they can remain that way. They started as a militant group carrying out attacks against Israelis. But in their early days, I don't think they had any as"}
{"id": "1251546031", "date": "2024-05-15", "guest": "Gregg Carlstrom", "title": "Gaza will be 'one big displacement camp' for the foreseeable future, journalist says", "question_index": 20, "text": "One proposal for Gaza is an international governing body. Does that have any traction?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think you have two questions. You have the short-term question of who's going to run Gaza now and immediately after the war? And then you have the longer-term question of the Israeli-Palestinian con"}
{"id": "1251546031", "date": "2024-05-15", "guest": "Gregg Carlstrom", "title": "Gaza will be 'one big displacement camp' for the foreseeable future, journalist says", "question_index": 21, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Gregg Carlstrom, Middle East correspondent for the Economist. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm not sure it does. I mean, part of that proposal is international peace keepers, and I think that's an essential first ingredient. You can't have an international governing body if you don't have s"}
{"id": "1251546031", "date": "2024-05-15", "guest": "Gregg Carlstrom", "title": "Gaza will be 'one big displacement camp' for the foreseeable future, journalist says", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Gregg Carlstrom, who's joining us from Dubai. He is a Middle East correspondent for the Economist. The war doesn't seem to be coming to an end anytime soon. The peace talks seem to be stalemated right now. When the war does end, eventually, what do you think people in Gaza will face? There are so many parts of Gaza that are totally unlivable now, that, you know, that have just been destroyed. It would take an immense amount of time and money to rebuild Gaza. What do you see for the future of Gaza, just in terms of, like, living conditions and the ability to survive there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm not sure it does. I mean, part of that proposal is international peace keepers, and I think that's an essential first ingredient. You can't have an international governing body if you don't have s"}
{"id": "1251546031", "date": "2024-05-15", "guest": "Gregg Carlstrom", "title": "Gaza will be 'one big displacement camp' for the foreseeable future, journalist says", "question_index": 23, "text": "Yeah. And as you've pointed out, the people in this one big displacement camp are people - are typically the descendants of people who were displaced when Israel became a state.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Misery and despair - I think that's going to be the foreseeable future in Gaza. I mean, I remember after the war in 2014, which was, back then, by far the biggest war that Israel and Hamas had fought."}
{"id": "1251546031", "date": "2024-05-15", "guest": "Gregg Carlstrom", "title": "Gaza will be 'one big displacement camp' for the foreseeable future, journalist says", "question_index": 24, "text": "How close do you think certain areas in Gaza are to famine, and how successfully is aid getting through right now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They are. Most of the population of Gaza was displaced to Gaza after 1948. Many of them hail from further north along the coast in what is now Israel, was back then mandatory Palestine, and they were "}
{"id": "1251546031", "date": "2024-05-15", "guest": "Gregg Carlstrom", "title": "Gaza will be 'one big displacement camp' for the foreseeable future, journalist says", "question_index": 25, "text": "You mentioned that the opinion is that the Biden administration has done nothing meaningful in terms of deterring Israel from the kind of bombing it's been carrying out in Gaza, but Biden has recently said he would withhold armed shipments for the bombing or invasion of Rafah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So there's a technical definition of famine - right? - which has three parts. It has to do with a certain number of people being malnourished and a certain number of children are wasting and a certain"}
{"id": "1251546031", "date": "2024-05-15", "guest": "Gregg Carlstrom", "title": "Gaza will be 'one big displacement camp' for the foreseeable future, journalist says", "question_index": 26, "text": "Gregg Carlstrom, thank you so much. I really appreciate you talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it took him a very long time to get there. If you think about everything else that his administration has asked Israel to do over the past 7 1/2 months, it's been asking since October for a conver"}
{"id": "1251546031", "date": "2024-05-15", "guest": "Gregg Carlstrom", "title": "Gaza will be 'one big displacement camp' for the foreseeable future, journalist says", "question_index": 27, "text": "Gregg Carlstrom is a Middle East correspondent for The Economist. He spoke to us from Dubai. After we recorded our interview yesterday, The Wall Street Journal reported that President Biden has indicated to Congress that he plans to call for a billion dollars of future arms shipments to Israel, but critics say that planning on future arms sales to Israel undercuts the current message the White House has been sending to the Netanyahu government not to launch an assault on Rafah. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be writer Carvell Wallace. He's known for his profiles of musicians, athletes and politicians like Samuel L. Jackson, Steph Curry and Michael B. Jordan. Now, Wallace has written a memoir about his own life - growing up unhoused, Black and queer, and coming into writing as a profession at 40 years old. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me. My pleasure."}
{"id": "1251546031", "date": "2024-05-15", "guest": "Gregg Carlstrom", "title": "Gaza will be 'one big displacement camp' for the foreseeable future, journalist says", "question_index": 28, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi and Joel Wolfram. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me. My pleasure."}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 0, "text": "What kind of movies did you really like when you were young?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Several generations of writers, producers, actors and directors worked with or were inspired by Roger Corman's freewheeling, free-spirit approach to film-making. Quentin Tarantino and Robert Rodriguez"}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 1, "text": "So how do we reconcile, you know, someone who's an engineering student who likes, you know, pretty serious movies and, you know, ending up turning out movies for drive-ins and, you know, movies like - movies about gangsters and monsters from the bottom of the sea. There's something about the movies that you've done and your personality, from what I've seen of you so far, that doesn't quite match.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when I was very young, there were certain directors - oh, at that time, it was the era of the producer, so I should say producers and directors, but I liked the works of John Ford and Howard Haw"}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 2, "text": "A lot of incredible actors and directors got started working with you. I'd like to hear the stories behind how you came across some of them. Why don't we start with Jack Nicholson, who - well, I think a lot of people remember his role in \"Little Shop Of Horrors\" as the masochistic dental patient.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it may be that my personality is somewhat schizophrenic. On the other hand, what I've tried to do is to work on two levels - to do a picture that on the surface is an entertainment - can be adve"}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 3, "text": "How did he come across your attention?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 4, "text": "Robert De Niro got started with you, too, didn't he?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I met Jack in an acting class given by Jeff Corey, and I'd been directing maybe four, five, six pictures when I felt I really had to learn more about acting and actors, so I enrolled in the acti"}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 5, "text": "You are, I think, the undisputed king of the cheap, fast movie. Let's talk about some of the ways you developed to make movies that were fast and cheap. I think one of the things you've done a lot is shoot two movies back-to-back.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. He played one of Shelly Winters' sons in the Ma Barker gang, when Shelly played Ma Barker in the picture called \"Bloody Mama.\" And I was very pleased with it. I thought it was one of the best-cas"}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 6, "text": "Name two movies that were shot back-to-back like this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I first started doing that when we would go on location. The cost of taking a movie crew, even a small movie crew such as I would normally work with - the cost of taking that crew on location is "}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right. I did actually three pictures once in Puerto Rico, when I took a company there. We did \"Battle Of Blood Island,\" a World War II picture, and then I directed \"The Last Woman On Earth,\" which"}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 8, "text": "Some actors who've worked with you say that you would shoot everything in one take, unless the camera fell over or there was an avalanche. Do you have any scenes that, looking back in the movies, you're really sorry you didn't do another take?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then, when we were there and things were going well, I called Chuck Griffith and gave him the idea for a comedy horror science fiction film to be called \"Creature From The Haunted Sea,\" and we thr"}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 9, "text": "You've worked in many different genres over the years. And one of the genres that you describe yourself as having created is the black humor horror film and included in that category would be \"Little Shop Of Horrors\" and \"Bucket Of Blood.\" Why did you decide to combine horror and comedy? And did you wonder if the horror audience would be interested in seeing a movie that mocked itself in some ways?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "to put it all back up? He says, it could, make or take, about an hour to do that. They really broke it apart. And I said, the scene ends with the falling down of the dentist chair. We're shooting this"}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I got the idea of combining horror with humor at a sneak preview of one of my films when a sequence, which was designed as a horror sequence, worked very well. And the audience screamed, really scream"}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 11, "text": "Peter Fonda starred in \"Wild Angels\" as, like, the head of the biker gang. He later starred with Dennis Hopper in \"Easy Rider.\" But in \"Wild Angels,\" there's something very innocent and vulnerable-looking about him in spite of the way that he's cast. Did you realize that at the time?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's return to Terry's 1990 interview with film producer and director Roger Corman. He died last week at age 98."}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 12, "text": "So tell me what you were like when you were hanging out at Hells Angels' parties.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I knew that, and it was a little bit of a problem because I wanted Peter in the film. He was a good actor. He had the right persona. But he's a very tall, thin person. And he wasn't really as tough - "}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was not quite one of the Angels."}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 14, "text": "Now, you cast some actual Hells Angels as extras in the movie, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I made a point of bringing the beer and possibly helping to bring some marijuana and one thing and another. And Chuck and I were reasonably well-accepted, but we were never quite with them. I remember"}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 15, "text": "Did they give you any trouble?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. We had members of the Venice and San Bernardino chapters of the Hells Angels."}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 16, "text": "Did you pay them well?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, they didn't really give me trouble. I was very careful as to how I was going to handle them."}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 17, "text": "Now, just as you hung out with the Hell's Angels before making \"Wild Angels,\" you dropped acid once, I believe, before making \"The Trip.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "***And then they got a little bit less than their personal fee to bring their bikes. And then they got a little bit less than the bikes for bringing their women. So this was their scale of values."}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 18, "text": "So how did that pay off in the making of the movie?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 19, "text": "So many of the actors, directors and screenwriters who got their start with you moved on and made big-budget movies after that, which is something that you really never did. I'm sure you could have, but you chose to stay doing what you were doing. I mean, you formed your own company, so you were doing it for yourself, but you were still turning out quickies, for the most part. Why did you want to keep doing that when you had the power and the money to make more expensive movies and to take a longer time doing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was a necessary and a good experience. To have made a picture about an LSD trip without having taken one, I think, would have been almost disastrous. I would not really have understood what"}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 20, "text": "You know, in the same period that you were making movies like \"Bloodfist\" and \"Slumber Party Massacre,\" you were also distributing foreign films - films by Ingmar Bergman, \"Cries And Whispers.\" You distributed \"The Tin Drum.\" Why did you get into distributing art films? And this was in the late '70s or early '80s that you started doing this, I think. No, it had to be earlier than that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had worked several times with the major studios, and as a matter of fact, I was offered a contract with a major studio to continue working for them when I stopped directing in 1970. The problem alwa"}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 21, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was the mid-'70s."}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 22, "text": "How closely do you stay in touch with all the actors and directors and screenwriters who you gave their start?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I got into distributing art films simply because I wanted to do it. New World was growing very rapidly, and I was very pleased with the growth of the company. But I felt that we were becoming known to"}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 23, "text": "You feel suited to the role?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I stay in reasonable touch with them. We're not all close or intimate friends anymore, but we see each other from time to time. For instance, Jack Nicholson, who not only starred in but directed \"Two "}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 24, "text": "So why is the king of exploitation being given all these roles as establishment figures?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I keep being offered that type of role. You know, I'm not really an actor. But for Francis Coppola, I played a senator, and then I was offered the part of a lawyer. I played a district attorney "}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 25, "text": "Which movie?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. Maybe in their eyes, I am an establishment figure, and maybe it's the fact that I'm growing older. However, Joe Dante had me play a bum, and I was delighted to play that."}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 26, "text": "OK. Roger Corman, thank you very, very much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The original \"Howling.\""}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 27, "text": "I think it's time to hear a scene from \"Wild Angels\"...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "******** FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University. We're remembering the king of the low-budget B movies, Roger Corman. He died last week at the age of 98. L"}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 28, "text": "...Your first biker film.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Uh-oh."}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 29, "text": "Now, in this scene, you're at the funeral of a biker - a biker played by Bruce Dern - and his coffin is covered by a Nazi flag. There's a minister delivering a eulogy, which you think is really phony, so you interrupt the eulogy to say this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Uh-oh."}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 30, "text": "And as you can hear, they are totally tearing apart the church.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Cheering)."}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 31, "text": "Peter Fonda - your thoughts listening back to this scene?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I warned you about that one already."}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 32, "text": "Groovy would be the other alternative.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's the first thing..."}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 33, "text": "How did those lines sound to you at the time? You want to be free to not be hassled by the man.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, not groovy, just far out. And, you know, what the heck? You would have to pick that scene, now, wouldn't you?"}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 34, "text": "Well, this was a - you know, you're, like, you know, the leader of a Hell's Angels gang, a kind of real switch from previous roles that you had in movies like \"Tammy And The Doctor\" and \"Lilith.\" What did you think of yourself as being the biker?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thought I had a better way of saying it, but I was reminded that I was playing the leader of a motorcycle gang and didn't necessarily have that larger vocabulary."}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 35, "text": "Now, why do you think Corman cast you in the biker role?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, I liked the job I did in \"Lilith.\" I thought I fit the bill well, and in my later years now, I'm enjoying hearing that from people, but I didn't want to be cast as the sensitive roles al"}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 36, "text": "So listen - when you were cast in \"Wild Angels,\" were you already riding a motorcycle?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Whatever would shake the cage the most into any kind of really set-in legislative morality. I really believe that there's - that abstract morality has no place in our political or our everyday live"}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 37, "text": "Now, there is a poster of you from this movie that you say sold, what, 16 million copies in America or something like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I'd been riding around a lot with various other glitterati - McQueen and Brando and myself."}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 38, "text": "How seriously did you take yourself at the time as a biker icon?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Easily, yeah."}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 39, "text": "The Loser.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't even put those two things together. I was brought into Corman's office - he was over at 20th Century Fox, had a deal making films over there - and he said he wanted to make - and my hair was "}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 40, "text": "This is a scene - you're a biker, you have a Swastika drawn onto your helmet, you're all about hate, and", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Peter Fonda, recorded in 1998. Now, let's hear from his co-star in \"The Wild Angels,\" Bruce Dern. He spoke with Terry in 2013. Terry began with another scene from the film."}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 41, "text": "you're an angry man.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Peter Fonda, recorded in 1998. Now, let's hear from his co-star in \"The Wild Angels,\" Bruce Dern. He spoke with Terry in 2013. Terry began with another scene from the film."}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 42, "text": "That's right - your soon-to-be-ex-wife is your leading lady. So this scene happens after you've been fired from your construction work job - been fired by the foreman - and so, like, you've gone home to see, you know, with - you live with your girlfriend, played by Diane Ladd, and Peter Fonda's with you. Your name - your nickname is Loser, and his name is Heavenly Blues. So here's that scene, and everybody - listen for the far-out dialogue.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And Laura's mom is my old lady in it."}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 43, "text": "So Bruce Dern, I'm thinking about how, like, for a long - like, for a year, you weren't even allowed to have any dialogue in The Actors Studio so that your body could become an emotional instrument, and here you are with what I have to say is just, like, really lame, period dialogue. What was it like for you to do those lines?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Loser) Yeah, the fool fired me. Hassled my mind, man. You don't ever get a straight deal around here. Are you kidding?"}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 44, "text": "What did you learn in terms of acting working fast and cheap for Corman?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You have to look at the whole thing that we didn't quite realize at the time, and look at the fact that we were all allowed to be in the University of Corman. Nobody really understood that until later"}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 45, "text": "So can you share your favorite cheap special effect that you were involved with from a Corman film?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're remembering Roger Corman, who died last week at the age of 98. He helped launch the careers of many actors and also many directors, including James Cameron, who went on to mak"}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 46, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they were all cheap. You know, I mean, we used to love - we actually were fairly sophisticated, even for that time. We were doing motion control and fairly complicated optical special effects an"}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 47, "text": "You played the lead in the 1959 Roger Corman movie \"Bucket Of Blood.\" And this has become a real cult classic. It was the leading role. You were a waiter in a beatnik coffee house, and you become an artist by covering first your dead cat in clay and then by killing people and covering the corpses in clay and passing it off as sculpture. And once this artist becomes really acclaimed, you also become quite the hipster. Was it fun to spoof the hipster in the movie?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "*** But the director needed actors, not screenwriters, so he began acting. Terry spoke with Dick Miller in 1990."}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 48, "text": "You mean the coffeehouse. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was made at the height of the coffee shop era. Everybody was going in for it."}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 49, "text": "The movie was shot in, I think, five days. Can you give us an idea of how you made a movie that quickly?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And that was - the basic idea behind the picture was the hipster coffeehouse groupies at that time and the people who hung around and the no-talents and the talents of that era. And I think late"}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 50, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, five days was not as tight as it seemed. They were making TV half-hour shows in 2 1/2 days, and people who had that down, had that type of - that was a finger snap."}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 51, "text": "You know, Roger Corman says that \"Bucket Of Blood\" and \"Little Shop Of Horrors\" were part of a new genre that he felt he was creating, the black comedy horror film. And I was wondering if you felt that all the actors had a good sense of humor, the kind of sense of humor that would get all what was happening in the movie, you know, and enjoy the jokes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Down at that moment could make movies that fast. We were - when I started with Roger, we were making Westerns, and we would make them in six days. And that was - seemed like a fair amount of time. "}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 52, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think at the time he was making those films, Roger didn't have the greatest sense of humor. I have to be honest about that. He wasn't quite sure that \"Bucket Of Blood\" was going to be a comedy. He t"}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 53, "text": "Give me an example of the kind of dirty trick that the actors would play on Corman.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's the truth. And all the people involved with him at the time had great senses of humor. I mean, they would - it was not uncommon for us on location shots to play what you would call dirty tricks"}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 54, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It wasn't really a group thing. It was - I think it was more Jonathan Haze and myself. We had an expression. Show me what you mean. He would say - we were out in Hawaii shooting a picture. He said, ru"}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 55, "text": "Well, did he expect you to do it after he proved that this was a really dangerous and impossible thing to do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He jumped. He grabbed the bushes, and we'd take out an hour while somebody washed his hands out."}
{"id": "1251795051", "date": "2024-05-17", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Roger Corman, king of B-movies", "question_index": 56, "text": "Did he always write a role for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And we'd do it. I mean, once it was shown to us, we said, OK, fine, you know? But we usually took more precautions than he had taken."}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 0, "text": "You had your first hit with a band called The Mar-Keys, and it wasn't long after that that you became affiliated with Stax Records. And you became the guitarist in the house rhythm section. You became a producer. You became a songwriter with...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I never really was a lead player. I never tried to be a lead player. I've been lucky enough to have played a few solos on some great artists' records. But really, I'm a rhythm man, and my best forte, "}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 1, "text": "Yeah, right", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And a floor sweeper."}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 2, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And a floor sweeper."}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 3, "text": "How did you get affiliated with Stax?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Tape copier and editor. Yup."}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 4, "text": "He was the tenor player with the Mar-Keys.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it started - Charles Axton, the tenor player, and the funny story about Charles Axton..."}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 5, "text": "Well, you, with the group Booker T. and the M.G.'s, had the hit of \"Green Onions.\" And I think this was a - it's a big hit, and it helped out Stax Records a lot. How did the four of you - Booker T., Al Jackson, Donald \"Duck\" Dunn and yourself - get to play together and become the house rhythm section?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that is a true story. Now, I might stretch it a little bit, but that's an actual truth. And we went out - his uncle, Jim Stewart, the owner of Stax Records, had a little studio in his garage in Me"}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 6, "text": "Let me play some of \"Green Onions.\" And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what it all stemmed from basically was there we were with all this great success doing \"The Dick Clark Show\" and everything as The Mar-Keys. And we had this big hit record, \"Last Night,\" and it "}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 7, "text": "...Because we're only going to play an excerpt, I'm going to start this a little in because I want to get to your guitar solo in it", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 8, "text": ". So this is \"Green Onions,\" Booker T. and the M.G.'s.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 9, "text": "You co-wrote \"Dock Of The Bay\" with Otis Redding, and you produced the record as well, right?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We've got a special show today about the Memphis records label Stax. Let's get back to Terry's 1990 interview with guitarist Steve Cropper."}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 10, "text": "What was your collaboration with him like when it came to writing songs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Correct."}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 11, "text": "Well, let's listen to the record. This is \"Dock Of The Bay.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, of course, we wrote a lot of songs together. The inception of \"Dock Of The Bay\" was really no different than any other one. Otis was one of those kind of guys who had 100 ideas, and he always ha"}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 12, "text": "I want to ask you about another record, and this is also a song you co-wrote. You co-wrote this one with Wilson Pickett, and it's \"Midnight Hour.\" This was, I think, for the first session that you played with Wilson Pickett.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Sitting in the morning sun. I'll be sitting when the evening come, watching the ships roll in. And then I watch them roll away again. Yeah. I'm sitting on the dock of the bay, watching the t"}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 13, "text": "Tell me about writing this song with him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. It was."}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, let's hear \"In The Midnight Hour.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's real simple. We knew that he was coming down - and, of course, my connection with the record shop. And I went up and found some stuff that he had sung on. Of course, he sang, you know, with"}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 15, "text": "That's Wilson Pickett, \"In The Midnight Hour,\" co-written by my guest Steve Cropper, who's featured on guitar. You also did a lot of work playing behind Sam and Dave, and Sam and Dave were the inspiration for the Aykroyd and Belushi group The Blues Brothers, and you played with them as well. What did you think of The Blues Brothers when they got started or when you got started or whatever?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I'm going to wait till the midnight hour. That's when my love come tumbling down. I'm going to wait till the midnight hour, when there's no one else around. I'm going to take you, girl, and "}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 16, "text": "What'd you think of - did you think that it was a parody that was in bad taste at all - you know, like, two white guys doing their parody of Black singers, two white guys who probably fantasized about themselves sometimes of being Black singers? What was your take on it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 17, "text": "Booker T., welcome to FRESH AIR. It's an honor to have you on our show.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University. Today we're featuring the work of artists from the legendary label Stax Records, which was based in Memphis"}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 18, "text": "Would you tell us the story behind the track that we just heard?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. I'm glad to be here."}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 19, "text": "So how did \"Green Onions,\" the B-side, end up being the hit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that happened as something of an accident. We were at the studio as session musicians to play a session for an artist who didn't show up. So we used the time to record our blues, which we called"}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 20, "text": "Now, you know, Booker T. and the M.G's basically became the house band for Stax Records. And you played on a lot of their recordings. How did you become a member of the Stax house band?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One of the disc jockeys, I think, did King Cole, the - flipped it over one day, flipped over the blues, and all of a sudden, \"Green Onions\" was on the air and got calls for it. And that eventually bec"}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 21, "text": "Why don't we hear the recording that you played baritone sax on, which is your first recording for Stax? You want to introduce it for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was in 11th grade, and my friend David Porter knew that Rufus Thomas and his daughter Carla were recording one day, and I guess they had requested a baritone sax part on a song, and David thou"}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 22, "text": "OK, let's hear it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's called \"'Cause I Love You\" by Rufus and Carla Thomas."}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 23, "text": "That's Rufus and Carla Thomas. The first recording that was - that featured Booker T, but he wasn't on keyboards. He was on baritone saxophone. And Booker T. is my guest. So you stayed, obviously. I mean, you were in 11th grade. You made this recording, and you ended up becoming part of the house band. How did they - was it hard to convince you to stay? Did you have to convince them that they needed you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You got me feeling so bad, I don't know what to do."}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 24, "text": "So what was it like going to high school and making records at the same time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I convinced them. I actually had a paper route. That was my job in the afternoon. And no, I convinced them to try me out on piano and eventually organ. And I eventually played on a organ on a Will"}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 25, "text": "Do you remember the first time you met Otis Redding?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it was unreal. I was in a rush to get out of school and get my papers thrown and get over to Stax. That was my thrill every day - to get to go there and play music until, you know, 10 or 11 o'cloc"}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 26, "text": "Now, when you were playing at Stax Records, when you were in Booker T. and the M.G.'s and you were the house band and making your own records, the South was still pretty segregated. But your band was comprised of African American and white musicians. Did tensions from - did racial tensions from the outside world ever affect the band or did you feel pretty well-protected by that - from that?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2007 interview with Booker T. Jones, who led the band Booker T. and the M.G.'s, which was the house band for Stax Records out of Memphis."}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 27, "text": "When you say the assassination affected you, I mean, I imagine everybody in the band was pretty upset about it. Did it cause any tensions within the band? Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we were insulated, you know, as most Southern social institutions are. We were insulated because we had our little door there that we locked behind us at Stax. And nobody knew what was going on "}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 28, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What I mean is it brought outside attention to us and what we were doing there."}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 29, "text": "Did you feel there were times you needed to keep it kind of a secret?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...The fact that we were interracial. I like to call it a not too well-kept secret that we were interracial. I think, you know, when we were playing music that nobody really cared that we were interra"}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 30, "text": "Right, because two of you were white, two of you were Black.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. The logistics of it demanded it. You know, we couldn't travel when we started without having two of us go get food - and sometimes those two were myself and Al, or sometimes those two were"}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 31, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly, exactly."}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 32, "text": "I want to play another record that you're featured on that's included on the \"Stax 50th Anniversary Celebration.\" And this is a song featuring Mable John. It's called \"Your Good Thing (Is About To End).\" You're featured on piano on this. I think a lot - I think Mable John isn't that well-known right now. Do you want to say something about her and about this recording?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know? So we just really didn't have a problem as long as the rest of the world didn't have a problem with us."}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 33, "text": "It's been great to talk with you. Thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I'm still in touch with her also. She's a special person. Do you remember sister - Willie John, Little Willie John? That was her brother. But, yeah, she's just such a down-to-earth, great home si"}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 34, "text": "So did you arrange this, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I remember getting the idea from watching TV and the riots in Detroit. And it was said that if you put soul on your door, your business establishment, they would bypass it, wouldn't burn it. And then "}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 35, "text": "And are you featured instrumentally?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 36, "text": "OK. Well, let's hear \"Soul Man,\" co-written by my guest, Isaac Hayes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wasn't featured. I just played piano on it. Well, you know, I did some little hot licks in there and stuff like that, you know."}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 37, "text": "My guest is Isaac Hayes. You developed a style of singing in which you did long raps that kind of gave a backstory to the song, and the rap would lead you into the song. And the songs are often, you know, like, pop tunes other people had written, like \"By The Time I Get To Phoenix,\" but you'd kind of make up the whole story leading up to it. How did you start doing that, combining these raps with pop tunes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Coming to you on a dusty road. Good loving - I got a truckload. And when you get it, you got something. So don't worry 'cause I'm coming. I'm a soul man. Oh. I'm a soul man. I'm a soul man. "}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 38, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Remember the famous quote in \"Cool Hand Luke,\" what we have here is a failure to communicate?"}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 39, "text": "Sure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Remember that?"}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 40, "text": "Well, I want to play an excerpt of your recording of \"By The Time I Get To Phoenix.\" This is Isaac Hayes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I did that - the rap came out of the necessity to communicate. And the way it happened was - there's a local club in Memphis, predominantly Black, that was called the Tiki Club. And, you know, w"}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 41, "text": "Isaacs Hayes, do you feel a kind of special affinity with rap music now? Do you feel a connection between what you were doing and what's being done now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But one day - one day - ol' boy got sick and he had to come home. I don't have to tell you what he found. Oh, it hurt him so bad. He said, baby, mama, why? That's all he could say. But she said, oh, y"}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 42, "text": "Well, I'm glad you mentioned \"Shaft\" 'cause that's the next stop on this tour of your work. Now, you recorded the theme for the movie \"Shaft\" in - I guess it was 1971. How were you asked to do this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, some people try to equate it. In the sense that it's rap - now, the only way I came close to this rap is the first verse in this song, \"Shaft.\" And that is, who's a Black private dick that's a s"}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 43, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that was the whole concept. Melvin Van Peebles had put out a a movie called \"Sweetback's Baadasssss Song\" (ph). And they said, it might be a market there. We had a meeting out there at MGM with "}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 44, "text": "Here's where you really get into orchestrating, right? So tell me how you started using that wah-wah guitar funk style.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I agreed to do the music. They had already cast Richard Roundtree, which was rightfully so. He's perfect for the part. And I agreed to the music, and that's how I - that's how that whole thing, tha"}
{"id": "1252918701", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "Sam And Dave", "title": "A look back at Stax Records with Steve Cropper, Booker T. and Isaac Hayes", "question_index": 45, "text": "Well, why don't I play some of your \"Theme From Shaft,\" a classic? This is Isaac Hayes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What happened was I had been doing arranging all the time. I did a lot of arranging with the horns and stuff at Stax, and the first string arrangements I tried was a thing that Dave and I did on Sam a"}
{"id": "1252943624", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "David Bowie", "title": "Remembering alto saxophonist David Sanborn", "question_index": 0, "text": "Let's talk a little bit about your background. How old were you when you started playing the alto, and what made you choose it?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry Gross interviewed David Sanborn in 1991. Here's an excerpt of that conversation."}
{"id": "1252943624", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "David Bowie", "title": "Remembering alto saxophonist David Sanborn", "question_index": 1, "text": "In 1967, you started playing with The Paul Butterfield Blues Band, which...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was 11 years old. And when I was a kid, I had polio. And when I was - got to be about 11 years old, the doctors and therapists suggested that I play a wind instrument for therapy. And it was right a"}
{"id": "1252943624", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "David Bowie", "title": "Remembering alto saxophonist David Sanborn", "question_index": 2, "text": "...I've kind of come to think of as the blues band for the psychedelic era or something", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1252943624", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "David Bowie", "title": "Remembering alto saxophonist David Sanborn", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1252943624", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "David Bowie", "title": "Remembering alto saxophonist David Sanborn", "question_index": 4, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, it was kind of - one of the only blues bands in the psychedelic area, although James Cotton was working at the time."}
{"id": "1252943624", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "David Bowie", "title": "Remembering alto saxophonist David Sanborn", "question_index": 5, "text": "Remember those days for us...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And Michael Bloomfield was working with The Electric Flag."}
{"id": "1252943624", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "David Bowie", "title": "Remembering alto saxophonist David Sanborn", "question_index": 6, "text": "...What it was like for you then touring with the band.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "1252943624", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "David Bowie", "title": "Remembering alto saxophonist David Sanborn", "question_index": 7, "text": "After your years with The Paul Butterfield Blues Band, you ended up playing - well, touring with, I believe, The Rolling Stones and with David Bowie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And we - you know, we were traveling on the road, you know, weren't making a lot of money. But we were working, and there was a lot of exchange among musicians, you know, people hanging out. Jimi He"}
{"id": "1252943624", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "David Bowie", "title": "Remembering alto saxophonist David Sanborn", "question_index": 8, "text": "Were there things that you were - were there things that were really fun about, you know, like, a Stevie Wonder-Rolling Stones tour and, on the other hand, things that were really alienating about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was actually playing with Stevie Wonder in 1971 and 1972. And we were asked to open for The Rolling Stones in the summer of '72 tour, and so I consequently got to play with them, you know, on "}
{"id": "1252943624", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "David Bowie", "title": "Remembering alto saxophonist David Sanborn", "question_index": 9, "text": "How did you start recording solo albums?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was certainly exciting. You know, I mean, there was a lot of intense behavior. I don't know how else to put it. It was pretty, I guess you would say, Dionysian - you know, a lot of sexual act"}
{"id": "1252943624", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "David Bowie", "title": "Remembering alto saxophonist David Sanborn", "question_index": 10, "text": "Now, that's an interesting juxtaposition...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, after I was - after I played with David Bowie - I was working with David Bowie, and I was also working with Gil Evans at the same time."}
{"id": "1252943624", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "David Bowie", "title": "Remembering alto saxophonist David Sanborn", "question_index": 11, "text": "...'Cause Gil Evans was one of the great jazz arrangers...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it was."}
{"id": "1252943624", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "David Bowie", "title": "Remembering alto saxophonist David Sanborn", "question_index": 12, "text": "...And David Bowie a big rock star.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "1252943624", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "David Bowie", "title": "Remembering alto saxophonist David Sanborn", "question_index": 13, "text": "So there's two different...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "1252943624", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "David Bowie", "title": "Remembering alto saxophonist David Sanborn", "question_index": 14, "text": "You know, I know you played off and on with Gil Evans for several years.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I know that one of the oddest situations I can remember was I played - the last show of Bowie's tour was in Madison Square Garden, and I played the show in Madison Square Garden and left there, "}
{"id": "1252943624", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "David Bowie", "title": "Remembering alto saxophonist David Sanborn", "question_index": 15, "text": "I saw you once with him at a small club in New York, and this was in the early '80s, when - I mean, your solo albums, as I believe, were selling quite well then. So obviously you weren't sitting in with him for the money.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I did."}
{"id": "1252943624", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "David Bowie", "title": "Remembering alto saxophonist David Sanborn", "question_index": 16, "text": "Why did you want to keep playing with Gil Evans even though you were having your own successful solo albums and you'd done quite well playing on rock records?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "1252943624", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "David Bowie", "title": "Remembering alto saxophonist David Sanborn", "question_index": 17, "text": "You told us earlier that you first started playing the alto as therapy for your polio. Do you have any aftereffects from the polio now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was such a great experience playing with Gil. I mean, he was, you know, one of the great arrangers of the - of jazz in, certainly, this century to me. I mean, I can think of so many great thi"}
{"id": "1252943624", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "David Bowie", "title": "Remembering alto saxophonist David Sanborn", "question_index": 18, "text": "How does - does your left arm interfere with playing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I have - I don't have total use of my left arm, and I have some problems in my right leg."}
{"id": "1252943624", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "David Bowie", "title": "Remembering alto saxophonist David Sanborn", "question_index": 19, "text": "Fingerings?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't have total flexibility in my left hand, so, I mean, I have problems with certain technical - certain technical problems with the instrument."}
{"id": "1252943624", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "David Bowie", "title": "Remembering alto saxophonist David Sanborn", "question_index": 20, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, certain fingerings. And I have to kind of lean a certain way to play, which is - it's funny because sometimes I'll see - I saw a young player who was, like, kind of imitating me, imitating my so"}
{"id": "1252943624", "date": "2024-05-24", "guest": "David Bowie", "title": "Remembering alto saxophonist David Sanborn", "question_index": 21, "text": "Well, I want to thank you a lot for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I wouldn't throw my little finger up like that if I could do it. So it was just kind of odd that, you know, I saw him imitating, you know, my compensating characteristics."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 0, "text": "An accident that causes a severe injury and disability changes a life in an instant, and the chronic pain can last for the rest of your life. So how do you carry on? That's the central question in the new novel by my guest, Andre Dubus III. The main character, Tom, is a builder who falls off a roof, breaking his pelvis and hips. Those bones are held together by pins. And long after the fall, the fires around the pins are still raging. He's on disability, living in Section 8 subsidized housing, thinking he doesn't belong here. He doesn't belong with these people. The psychic pain, spiritual void and the anger and bitterness are constants. Dubus had personal experiences he could draw from for the novel. His father, the writer Andre Dubus, had his life changed while trying to do a good deed helping two people on the side of the road who had collided with an overturned motorcycle in the passing lane. While helping them, he was hit by a car going over 55 miles an hour. One leg was amputated, and the other was virtually paralyzed. He never walked again. Andre Dubus III grew up poor because his parents separated long before his father's accident, leaving his mother sometimes unable to pay the rent or buy enough food to feed herself and four children, in spite of the child support payments. Andre Dubus III learned what it was like to have money after his novel \"House Of Sand And Fog\" became an Oprah Book Club selection, a bestseller and was adapted into a film. His new novel is called \"Such Kindness.\" Andre Dubus, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Let's start with a very short reading from early in your book on Page 15.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. We're going to listen back to an interview with Andre Dubus III about writing, growing up amidst violence and poverty, dealing with chronic pain and experiencing t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 1, "text": "I was wondering if you were thinking of your father and his accident when you decided to write a book about a horrible injury that leads to disability and chronic pain.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. (Reading) I have spent many hours contemplating pain. Its constant presence seems like such a dark joke, really, like the school bully who sits on your chest and spits in your face years after bot"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 2, "text": "So your injuries were caused by being a carpenter 'cause you're a carpenter...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it's interesting. I wasn't consciously thinking about my dad, Terry, but, of course, these things are in my psyche deeply. I've had a lot of back injuries, like a lot of people over the years. I'v"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 3, "text": "...And you draw on that for the book, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 4, "text": "There are so many descriptions of the pain in the book. Because the pain is constant, you're constantly, as a reader, reminded of that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's - it first started at 19, weight training. You know, I write about all that in my memoir, \"Townie,\" about how I transformed myself from a small, sedentary, scared, bullied kid into somebody"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 5, "text": "No, but you had to come up with a lot of different descriptions. So what was the process like of coming up with different descriptions to describe the same pain in his hips?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 6, "text": "It's just endless.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I love this line by the writer Paul Engle. He said that writing is rewriting what you've already rewritten. I..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 7, "text": "You know, your memoir, \"Townie,\" starts with you jogging with your father before his accident.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Isn't that great? It's frigging endless. I began with a horrible metaphor of rats gnashing at his pelvis and his hip bones. And, I mean, I think the first few drafts, even the ones I was working on wi"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 8, "text": "And at this point in your story in the memoir, your parents are separated. You're living with your mother, but your father visits usually once a week. And on this...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 9, "text": "...Visit, you're going jogging with him, but you don't have good sneakers, so you borrow your older sister's sneakers. But they're really too small. And you run two 5-1/2-mile laps with your father. Your feet are, like, swollen and bleeding, and they really hurt. And so I thought it was interesting that that memoir starts with pain, too - with physical pain.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 10, "text": "Tom, your character, turns to the Hermann Hesse novel \"Siddhartha,\" which is, like, a Buddhist-oriented novel. Your father, after his injury and his chronic pain, he kept reading the New Testament. And you said you don't believe in God, but you do believe in the divine. So what's the distinction there, and has your belief in the divine, however you define it, helped you get through difficult periods?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, that - and the memoir begins with that because that's when I really began - you know, I had run only once in my life. I was 8 years old when my dad lived with us, and I"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 11, "text": "Has it been hard for you to find language, everyday language, to describe your belief in the divine, but not in God? Like, Tom, your main character, for instance - he says he's talking to a God he doesn't believe in. He uses the word blessing, and he says, another holy word that I don't believe in but do. So he's struggling with the language.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Boy, that's a great question. You know, I teach my dad's short stories at University of Massachusetts, Lowell, where I've been for years. And I just so love teaching his work. But one of the things th"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 12, "text": "Let's take a short break here and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Andre Dubus III, author of the new novel \"Such Kindness.\" And you may know him for his novel \"House Of Sand And Fog,\" which was adapted into a film. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I am too. It's hard to find the language. I don't know. It's going to sound romanticized, but I - you've got to come down to love. It's love, you know? You know, and I am not - I do not look at "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Andre Dubus. His new novel is called \"Such Kindness.\" Let's get to you and being bullied and then becoming a fighter.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I am too. It's hard to find the language. I don't know. It's going to sound romanticized, but I - you've got to come down to love. It's love, you know? You know, and I am not - I do not look at "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 14, "text": "When you were growing up poor after your father left when you were 10, you went to so many different schools, in part 'cause you had to move all the time because of the rent.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 15, "text": "And so you'd go to a new school and you'd be bullied. And you didn't want to fight, so you hid. You spent a lot of time just kind of, like, hiding and trying to become invisible. But you were still beaten up. Your brother was beaten up, your younger brother. And then you started lifting weights, working out and eventually boxing. What was the turning point for you where you decided, I'm not going to hide anymore, I'm going to transform myself physically?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 16, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was a pretty traumatic turning point. I was 14. My brother was 13. You know, if you know violence well - and sadly, too many do - you tend to have three reactions. You either fight like hell,"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 17, "text": "Well, let's get to the creative writing in a minute. But you write in your memoir, with physical violence, there was always the wreckage after, not just the bruises and lacerations, the chipped teeth or fractured bones. There was a hangover of the spirit. Would you describe the hangover of the spirit after you beat somebody up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Without losing their - oh, yeah, they loved me. They couldn't - without losing their badges. Oh, yeah. And, you know, women started to notice me. But that wasn't the point, as much as I enjoyed tha"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 18, "text": "At some point, you realized you were beating people up for yourself.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. You know, three guys pulled over my best friend and his wife and pulled a knife on my best friend and threatened to, you know, assault their - you know, his fiancee at the time. And we found"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 19, "text": "Yes, you were trying to protect people, but you were doing it for yourself.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 20, "text": "What do you mean by that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep. Yep."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 21, "text": "Andre Dubus III grew up poor and was bullied. He eventually decided to stop hiding from bullies, built up his body and became a fighter. When we left off, he was describing how he started looking for fights, fights he could justify by saying it was to defend someone against a bully or an attacker. One of his last fights was in his late 20s when he saw a woman being assaulted and he put one of the guys in the hospital. He was treated like a hero but realized he'd gone too far and that demonstrating his skill as a great defender was a form of narcissism. I want to ask you about two incidents involving your older sister, Suzanne, and your reaction to these incidents. She was gang-raped in a car. And then another experience was her husband beat her up badly. It - what? - perforated one of her eardrums. And you were talking to your father about it. And you were talking about what you wanted to do to her husband. And he was saying, we should get a pro to do something. So he was thinking of calling someone...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. Let's get back to Terry's interview from last year with Andre Dubus III, the author of the novel \"Such Kindness.\" He has a new collection of essays titled \"Ghost D"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 22, "text": "...To break her husband's knees.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 23, "text": "Oh, were you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it's worse than that. No, we were looking for a hit man."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 24, "text": "But I think you say knees in the memoir", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 25, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 26, "text": "Do what? Beat him up or kill him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No - well, it gets to that. We actually called somebody, you know, a bar guy in San Francisco who knew some street people, found out it was $1,500 to have the man killed, 500 to have every bone in his"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 27, "text": "Your sister is now the CEO of a domestic violence crisis center...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was open to both possibilities. Let's just start by hurting him. And if he dies, well, then he dies. And I felt no remorse about that. I felt total conviction. That's my sister. You need to die. And"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 28, "text": "...And the subject of a book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 29, "text": "And so when she was on our show after that book was published, she was talking about how her husband, the husband you were referring to, kept insisting, you know, after she left him, I need to see you. I need to see you and talk with you. And she said on our show, but my brothers were around me then. I wasn't isolated anymore. It was easy for me to say to him, I'll see you, but you have to come to my father's house. And I'll talk to you, and my dad and my brothers are going to be in the other room. And it was during that time where I could say, no, this isn't going to happen. This isn't going to go anywhere. He tried one more time later, but I was done. So it was your presence and your father's presence that helped her not only leave her husband, but say, we're done. I've got muscle.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 30, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, she had muscle. She had someone behind her. You know, and now, though, you know, in my seventh decade of life, I think how patriarchal it can be to hover over a woman as the protector and sort o"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 31, "text": "You're lucky, though, because had they discovered who raped her, you might have tried to kill them. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, one of the incidents that continued to propel me into deeper street violence as a kid was when she was raped at knifepoint by two men in Boston, who were never caught. And - but the feeling "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 32, "text": "And you're lucky because you didn't try to kill her husband, your sister's husband. I mean, did you ever think about what your life would be like if you did break all his bones or murder him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 33, "text": "I just want to repeat something that you just said, that you think of writing as going deeper into the human spirit through words.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah. You know, I was so fortunate to teach a creative writing class with Tobias Wolff, who's an old friend, at San Quentin a few years ago to 34 lifers, 34 men who will never get out, who've ma"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 34, "text": "That's a pretty great description.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 35, "text": "Let's take a short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Andre Dubus. His new novel is called \"Such Kindness.\" We're also talking about his 2011 memoir, which is called \"Townie.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you. You know, I am so grateful that I found writing, you know? It was rocky for the first 10 or 20 years, being the great writer's son with the same name. It was a pain in the a**. But I "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 36, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Andre Dubus. His new novel is called \"Such Kindness.\" He's also the author of an earlier memoir called \"Townie.\" It's really hard, I would imagine, to write about family if the family member is alive or to write about a close friend if the close friend is alive and to do it through memoir or essay and not fiction...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you. You know, I am so grateful that I found writing, you know? It was rocky for the first 10 or 20 years, being the great writer's son with the same name. It was a pain in the a**. But I "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 37, "text": "...'Cause there's no deniability in memoir or essay. You can't say, it's not you. It's just this character. I just made it up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 38, "text": "But your father told you, don't be like me and wait until your father is dead to write about him. You can write about your parents while they're alive. Did you take that advice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 39, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I waited till he died, but not purposely. I did write a story - one of the first short stories I ever wrote, probably the most autobiographically based piece of fiction I ever wrote. It's called \""}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 40, "text": "Do you feel lucky at all that you never got to have it, or do you feel deprived?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he said, and, by the way, Jeb was running - was throwing rocks and calling me a bum. You didn't put that in, did you? I said, oh, man, I forgot about that. But I put it in \"Townie.\" I don't know i"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 41, "text": "Do you ever feel guilty in spite of that, in spite of the fact that your father has been dead for years? Because I don't know, with myself, when I say something negative about my parents...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I said, yeah, but I don't want to - I mean, come on. It's one thing to shine a light on my own privacy. I mean, how do I write about them? She said, but isn't that part of your story, too? And so that"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 42, "text": "...Who I deeply loved, I feel this, like, tinge of, like, guilt for saying it. And I feel like somehow they know I've said it. And I don't really literally believe that. I don't, like, believe in an afterlife, but I somehow imagine them hearing it and being really upset.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 43, "text": "What made you cry?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I wake up at 3 in the morning - not so much now 'cause \"Townie\" came out in 2011, but especially the first five or six years, I would get all these letters and, you know, from all sorts of people,"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 44, "text": "Yeah. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, when I - when the younger me gets to the top of the hill, the first lap and with my feet in agony 'cause I'm wearing my sister's too-small shoes. And of course, I don't want to tell my father I do"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-05-31", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "For 'Such Kindness' novelist Andre Dubus III, chronic pain is a fact of life", "question_index": 45, "text": "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's such a pleasure to talk with you, Andre. I really appreciate you coming back to the show. Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-03", "guest": "Jonathan Groff", "title": "In 1981, this Sondheim musical flopped. Now 'Merrily We Roll Along' is a hit", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Stephen Sondheim's 1981 musical, \"Merrily We Roll Along,\" closed after only 16 performances. Since then, it's developed a cult following, and now it's a Broadway hit with seven Tony nominations, including best revival of a musical. The person behind this new production is my guest, first-time director Maria Friedman. She's nominated for a Tony, as are the three leads - Jonathan Groff, who's also with us, Daniel Radcliffe and Lindsay Mendez. This is Friedman's directorial debut. She's also an Olivier Award-winning actress. She worked closely with Stephen Sondheim. She co-starred in a London revival of \"Merrily\" in the mid-'90s under Sondheim's direction. She also had leading roles in British productions of the Sondheim musicals \"Passion,\" \"Sunday In The Park With George\" and \"Sweeney Todd.\" She became good friends with Sondheim, and he became the godfather of one of her children. Jonathan Groff won a Tony for his performance in \"Hamilton\" as King George III and was nominated for his performance in \"Spring Awakening.\" He's also known for his performances in movies and TV shows, including \"Frozen,\" \"Mindhunter,\" \"Looking\" and \"Glee.\" People sometimes complain that Sondheim doesn't write hummable melodies, which isn't true, but it's particularly not true of the songs in \"Merrily,\" as you'll hear when we play excerpts from the new cast recording. The story begins with three old friends. Jonathan Groff plays Frank, a composer turned film producer. Daniel Radcliffe plays Charley, a lyricist and playwright who wrote songs with Frank and thinks Frank abandoned his calling as a composer to make money as a crowd-pleasing movie producer. Lindsay Mendez plays Mary, a bestselling novelist-turned-theater critic who has become bitter and drinks way too much. Charley and Mary feel abandoned by Frank. The story spans 20 years, starting in 1976. Each scene goes further back in time until 1957, when the friends first meet. Let's start with Jonathan Groff singing \"Old Friends\" from the new cast recording.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-03", "guest": "Jonathan Groff", "title": "In 1981, this Sondheim musical flopped. Now 'Merrily We Roll Along' is a hit", "question_index": 1, "text": "That was \"Old Friends\" from the new revival of Stephen Sondheim's \"Merrily We Roll Along.\" Jonathan Groff, Maria Friedman, congratulations on the show. Congratulations on your Tony nominations. I love this revival so much. I'm so happy to have you on the show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Franklin Shepard, singing) Hey, old friend. Are you OK, old friend? What do you say, old friend? Are we or are we unique? Time goes by. Everything else keeps changing. You and I, we get continued "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-03", "guest": "Jonathan Groff", "title": "In 1981, this Sondheim musical flopped. Now 'Merrily We Roll Along' is a hit", "question_index": 2, "text": "Sondheim songs often have a different meaning than you'd think out of context, and this is sung after a fight between Jonathan's character, the composer Franklin Shepard, and Daniel Radcliffe's character, the lyricist Charley Kringas, after their collaboration keeps getting - putting on hold because the composer has become a successful film producer and isn't writing music. And the lyricist is really frustrated 'cause he thinks that the composer is a genius, and he's not fulfilling his true worth. It's also very syncopated, this song, and I always think of \"Merrily\" as Sondheim's syncopated musical. So many of these songs are syncopated. And Maria, I'm wondering if he ever talked to you about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. We're happy to be here."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-03", "guest": "Jonathan Groff", "title": "In 1981, this Sondheim musical flopped. Now 'Merrily We Roll Along' is a hit", "question_index": 3, "text": "So, Jonathan, what was it like for you to sing that song? And maybe you could clap out or sing out or point out the syncopation in it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. He'd always talk character and story, and that's what drove him to write in the rhythms that he did for different people. It's a very, very good question, by the way, that you notice that it's qui"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-03", "guest": "Jonathan Groff", "title": "In 1981, this Sondheim musical flopped. Now 'Merrily We Roll Along' is a hit", "question_index": 4, "text": "In the melody. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Is this in the melody? In, like, the..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-03", "guest": "Jonathan Groff", "title": "In 1981, this Sondheim musical flopped. Now 'Merrily We Roll Along' is a hit", "question_index": 5, "text": "Even the opening line.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah. So..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-03", "guest": "Jonathan Groff", "title": "In 1981, this Sondheim musical flopped. Now 'Merrily We Roll Along' is a hit", "question_index": 6, "text": "The original 1981 production of \"Merrily We Roll Along\" was a big flop. It closed after, I think, 16 performances. Maria, you were close friends with Sondheim. You became close friends. So why did you want to do a production, a new revival of \"Merrily,\" knowing that previous attempts also failed? And I don't think they were necessarily artistic failures. I've seen a few productions that I thought were great. Had they tried to diagnose why the show had never succeeded before?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The spaces are so delicious to play in the writing of the music. And Maria, oftentimes in rehearsal, would talk with us about how the pauses are just as if not more important than the notes, the pause"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-03", "guest": "Jonathan Groff", "title": "In 1981, this Sondheim musical flopped. Now 'Merrily We Roll Along' is a hit", "question_index": 7, "text": "And what was the diagnosis?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-03", "guest": "Jonathan Groff", "title": "In 1981, this Sondheim musical flopped. Now 'Merrily We Roll Along' is a hit", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is the first commercially successful production of \"Merrily.\" In the show, when the characters have the first successful production, they're standing outside the door listening for the applause. And when they hear the applause, they sing, (singing) it's a hit. It's a hit. So did - where did - where were you on opening night on Broadway for this show? And I'm also wondering, like, if you all went somewhere afterwards and sang \"It's A Hit.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I never knew what - their diagnosis was what they've put in this show, so they didn't discuss that with me. I'll tell you one thing they were absolutely adamant about is that we didn't ever refe"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-03", "guest": "Jonathan Groff", "title": "In 1981, this Sondheim musical flopped. Now 'Merrily We Roll Along' is a hit", "question_index": 9, "text": "Jonathan, were you listening carefully to the applause to see which way it was going to go?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I went into this - if it any way sounds arrogant, then I've not made myself clear. I was really calm on opening night. I sat in the auditorium. I did a lot of people watching around the applause, "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-03", "guest": "Jonathan Groff", "title": "In 1981, this Sondheim musical flopped. Now 'Merrily We Roll Along' is a hit", "question_index": 10, "text": "Are you talking about lines in the song \"Our Time\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. There's some lines that happen two hours and 40 minutes into an evening after an audience - one line that has been laid out, one line that takes over the course of maybe three seconds to say. An"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-03", "guest": "Jonathan Groff", "title": "In 1981, this Sondheim musical flopped. Now 'Merrily We Roll Along' is a hit", "question_index": 11, "text": "Jonathan, how could you tear up after having done so many performances of this? How is it that it's still so emotional for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Later. And the whole audience just go, oh. You just feel the pain. There's just many, many moments like that that start collecting."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-03", "guest": "Jonathan Groff", "title": "In 1981, this Sondheim musical flopped. Now 'Merrily We Roll Along' is a hit", "question_index": 12, "text": "That's a quote.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's such a good question. I think that they wrote something really personal. Stephen Sondheim and George Furth - feels like just, here, let me take my heart out of my body and just place it at your f"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-03", "guest": "Jonathan Groff", "title": "In 1981, this Sondheim musical flopped. Now 'Merrily We Roll Along' is a hit", "question_index": 13, "text": "We need to take a short break here. If you're just joining us, we're talking about the Broadway revival of \"Merrily We Roll Along.\" It's now nominated for seven Tony Awards, including Best Revival of a Musical. My guests are two of the nominees - Jonathan Groff, the show's star, and Maria Friedman, the director. We'll be back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, it is. There's another thing, though. What I find really interesting, both as a performer and watching people like Jonathan, is that we have one tool that is our very, very best friend as "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-03", "guest": "Jonathan Groff", "title": "In 1981, this Sondheim musical flopped. Now 'Merrily We Roll Along' is a hit", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview about the Broadway revival of the Sondheim musical \"Merrily We Roll Along.\" My guests are the show's star, Jonathan Groff, who's nominated for a Tony, and Maria Friedman, who's nominated for directing the show. Jonathan, you mentioned that the word everything - that you were encouraged to give everything. And the word everything is mentioned in the song \"Our Time.\" So I'd like to play that. And just to set the scene - this is on the rooftop of an apartment building that both Charley and Frank are living in. Charley has been listening to Frank's music, like, through the walls, and he had given Frank a copy of his play to read. And they both really admire each other's work. And Frank has this idea. We should collaborate. You write words, and I write music. We should be a team. And it seems like a new world because, you know, they're on the verge of a new career. It's a new generation, it's a new time, it's a new world. And he sings \"Our Time.\" And there's such sadness when we hear it in the audience because we all know how things have turned out, the compromises, the disappointments, the anger between the two of them, the frustrations. So anything you want to add to that, Jonathan?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, it is. There's another thing, though. What I find really interesting, both as a performer and watching people like Jonathan, is that we have one tool that is our very, very best friend as "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-03", "guest": "Jonathan Groff", "title": "In 1981, this Sondheim musical flopped. Now 'Merrily We Roll Along' is a hit", "question_index": 15, "text": "And I should also mention, you know, we know that Frank has lost friends and family because he stopped paying attention to them to devote all of his time to his career and to success. So let's hear Jonathan Groff sing \"Our time.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I'm going to write it down and copy it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-03", "guest": "Jonathan Groff", "title": "In 1981, this Sondheim musical flopped. Now 'Merrily We Roll Along' is a hit", "question_index": 16, "text": "Jonathan, when you sing that, what are you thinking about? I know you're thinking about being Frank, but what do you connect it to in your own life? Because he's thinking about, you know, it's our time, the generation is different. But there's this line, and yesterday is done. Can you talk a little bit - is it too emotional?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Franklin Shepard, singing) Something is stirring, shifting ground. It's just begun. Edges are blurring all around and yesterday is done. Feel the flow. Hear what's happening. We're what's happenin"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-03", "guest": "Jonathan Groff", "title": "In 1981, this Sondheim musical flopped. Now 'Merrily We Roll Along' is a hit", "question_index": 17, "text": "My guests are Jonathan Groff, who's nominated for a Tony for his starring role in the Broadway revival of Sondheim's musical \"Merrily We Roll Along,\" and Maria Friedman, who's nominated for directing the show. We'll talk more after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It's great that you bring up that line, too, because that is also the first line of the entire show. Yesterday is done. And I'll say that the special gift of being an actor inside of this piece, one"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-03", "guest": "Jonathan Groff", "title": "In 1981, this Sondheim musical flopped. Now 'Merrily We Roll Along' is a hit", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with actor Jonathan Groff and actor and director Maria Friedman. Friedman directed the new Broadway revival of the Stephen Sondheim musical \"Merrily We Roll Along,\" which has received seven Tony nominations. She's also an Olivier Award-winning actor and starred in London productions of the Sondheim musicals \"Sunday In The Park With George,\" \"Passion\" and \"Sweeney Todd.\" Back in the '90s, she starred in a London production of \"Merrily\" and was directed by Sondheim. She's now nominated for a Tony for directing the Broadway revival of \"Merrily,\" and Groff is nominated for his leading role. He won a Tony for his role in the musical \"Hamilton\" as King George III and was nominated for his first starring role on Broadway in the musical \"Spring Awakening.\" He starred in the TV shows \"Mindhunter,\" \"Looking\" and \"Glee,\" and the movies \"Frozen\" and \"The Normal Heart.\" So, Jonathan, you're tearing up talking about some of these songs and what they mean to you, but you can't really do that on stage because you have to be in the moment.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It's great that you bring up that line, too, because that is also the first line of the entire show. Yesterday is done. And I'll say that the special gift of being an actor inside of this piece, one"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-03", "guest": "Jonathan Groff", "title": "In 1981, this Sondheim musical flopped. Now 'Merrily We Roll Along' is a hit", "question_index": 19, "text": "And how does that work? How do you get your voice out? I know when I cry, my voice just kind of quivers...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-03", "guest": "Jonathan Groff", "title": "In 1981, this Sondheim musical flopped. Now 'Merrily We Roll Along' is a hit", "question_index": 20, "text": "...And it's hard to speak.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-03", "guest": "Jonathan Groff", "title": "In 1981, this Sondheim musical flopped. Now 'Merrily We Roll Along' is a hit", "question_index": 21, "text": "Maria, how did you cast Jonathan in the role of Frank?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But that will make me cry. So if that's what Jonathan feels when he's feeling those things, let it happen. Why not?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-03", "guest": "Jonathan Groff", "title": "In 1981, this Sondheim musical flopped. Now 'Merrily We Roll Along' is a hit", "question_index": 22, "text": "How did you cast Daniel Radcliffe? Did you have any idea that he sang?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "By meeting him. We talked on a Zoom, and then I took him to Steve Sondheim's house, who had already passed away, because I wanted Steve to be - I don't know - somehow part of the decision. I wanted St"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-03", "guest": "Jonathan Groff", "title": "In 1981, this Sondheim musical flopped. Now 'Merrily We Roll Along' is a hit", "question_index": 23, "text": "We need to take a short break here. If you're just joining us, we're talking about the Broadway revival of \"Merrily We Roll Along.\" It's now nominated for seven Tony Awards, including best revival of a musical. My guests are two of the nominees - Jonathan Groff, the show's star, and Maria Friedman, the director. We'll be back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I knew he sang. He'd come to see the show in London and had photographs with the cast. And I remember thinking, if I was Daniel, and I was watching that show, and I was watching that part, I'd th"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-03", "guest": "Jonathan Groff", "title": "In 1981, this Sondheim musical flopped. Now 'Merrily We Roll Along' is a hit", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview about the Broadway revival of the Sondheim musical \"Merrily We Roll Along.\" My guests are the show's star, Jonathan Groff, who's nominated for a Tony, and Maria Friedman, who's nominated for directing the show. Maria, you played Mary, one of the three leads in the show, in the mid '90s, and this is the time when Sondheim was rewriting it as you were rehearsing it. How did he direct you as - he wasn't directing the show, but I'm sure he was making suggestions to you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I knew he sang. He'd come to see the show in London and had photographs with the cast. And I remember thinking, if I was Daniel, and I was watching that show, and I was watching that part, I'd th"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-03", "guest": "Jonathan Groff", "title": "In 1981, this Sondheim musical flopped. Now 'Merrily We Roll Along' is a hit", "question_index": 25, "text": "He was directing it. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. He was directing the show."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-03", "guest": "Jonathan Groff", "title": "In 1981, this Sondheim musical flopped. Now 'Merrily We Roll Along' is a hit", "question_index": 26, "text": "Like, literally or actually?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-03", "guest": "Jonathan Groff", "title": "In 1981, this Sondheim musical flopped. Now 'Merrily We Roll Along' is a hit", "question_index": 27, "text": "So how did he direct you in that character? And could you compare that to how you directed Lindsay Mendez, who plays Mary in the new revival?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, he's a great collaborator, so he wouldn't step on the toes of the staging, but the staging is only part of directing."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-03", "guest": "Jonathan Groff", "title": "In 1981, this Sondheim musical flopped. Now 'Merrily We Roll Along' is a hit", "question_index": 28, "text": "Like, in real life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And over the years, I was so happy because I thought, oh, my God, maybe this is like a premonition. I'm going to be one of these crazy, angry banshees, alcoholic or whatever. But because he said that,"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-03", "guest": "Jonathan Groff", "title": "In 1981, this Sondheim musical flopped. Now 'Merrily We Roll Along' is a hit", "question_index": 29, "text": "You - were you letting out your bottled-up anger on stage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-03", "guest": "Jonathan Groff", "title": "In 1981, this Sondheim musical flopped. Now 'Merrily We Roll Along' is a hit", "question_index": 30, "text": "Can you think of an example when Sondheim was sitting down, looking into your eyes", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think probably - that's what he said to me. He said, there's some massive part of you that's angry, Maria. And I'd always thought of myself as playful and funny and good to be around. But then I kin"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-03", "guest": "Jonathan Groff", "title": "In 1981, this Sondheim musical flopped. Now 'Merrily We Roll Along' is a hit", "question_index": 31, "text": "and said, nope.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think probably - that's what he said to me. He said, there's some massive part of you that's angry, Maria. And I'd always thought of myself as playful and funny and good to be around. But then I kin"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-03", "guest": "Jonathan Groff", "title": "In 1981, this Sondheim musical flopped. Now 'Merrily We Roll Along' is a hit", "question_index": 32, "text": "Speaking of Sondheim, as we've discussed, \"Merrily\" is told in, like, reverse chronological order. It starts with the present, when expectations have not been fulfilled, and it ends when they're, like, 20 years younger, when expectations are so high and they're so excited and so fresh and the world is so new to them. And several songs are reprised, but often the second time around when they're younger, the song has a much more optimistic flair than the first time around that we heard the song. And that's particularly true of a song called \"Not A Day Goes By.\" And the first time we hear it, Frank's wife is singing it while they're in the middle of this very acrimonious divorce. And the second time we hear it is at their wedding, like, years earlier. And, you know, one of the times I interviewed Sondheim, I asked him about that song and about writing things in reverse chronological order. So before we hear both versions of that song, I'd like to play what Sondheim had to say about it. So here's Sondheim talking about writing the song in reverse chronological order.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was like, ooh - dear, oh, dear. And he just said, it's not for you to cry. It's for the audience to cry. Now that I know goes against what I'm saying. But you have to choose when you cry. And I just"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-03", "guest": "Jonathan Groff", "title": "In 1981, this Sondheim musical flopped. Now 'Merrily We Roll Along' is a hit", "question_index": 33, "text": "OK. That was Stephen Sondheim on FRESH AIR. So let's hear that song, \"Not A Day Goes By.\" The first version we'll hear is Katie Rose Clarke singing it when Beth and Frank are divorcing, and it's a very acrimonious divorce. And the second version is when they're getting married, and she's just expressing her love for him. And Frank, my guest Jonathan Groff, duets with her. So here we go - two versions of \"Not A Day Goes By\" from \"Merrily We Roll Along.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I wrote the whole score knowing that it was going to go backwards in time. And I thought, what does that imply? Well, it implies that something that you and I sing today, 20 years from now will "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-03", "guest": "Jonathan Groff", "title": "In 1981, this Sondheim musical flopped. Now 'Merrily We Roll Along' is a hit", "question_index": 34, "text": "That was two versions of \"Not A Day Goes By\" from the new cast recording of \"Merrily We Roll Along.\" We'll talk with the show's star, Jonathan Groff, and the director, Maria Friedman, after a short break. This is FRESH AIR. (SOIUNDBITE OF MUSIC)", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Beth Spencer and Franklin Shepard, singing) ...And simpler and freer and richer and clearer. In all, not a day goes by..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-03", "guest": "Jonathan Groff", "title": "In 1981, this Sondheim musical flopped. Now 'Merrily We Roll Along' is a hit", "question_index": 35, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview about the Broadway revival of the Sondheim musical \"Merrily We Roll Along.\" My guests are the show's star, Jonathan Groff, who's nominated for a Tony, and Maria Friedman, who's nominated for directing the show. Maria, another question for you about Sondheim. He became the godfather of one of your children. What did that mean in your life and in his life and your child's life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Beth Spencer and Franklin Shepard, singing) ...And simpler and freer and richer and clearer. In all, not a day goes by..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-03", "guest": "Jonathan Groff", "title": "In 1981, this Sondheim musical flopped. Now 'Merrily We Roll Along' is a hit", "question_index": 36, "text": "Had you asked Sondheim to be the godfather of one of your children afraid that you might not live very long?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A huge amount. And my other child's mentor, along with - I mean, he mentored a lot of young writers. It meant everything. I asked him, after I had had a big health scare. We were walking along Covent "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-03", "guest": "Jonathan Groff", "title": "In 1981, this Sondheim musical flopped. Now 'Merrily We Roll Along' is a hit", "question_index": 37, "text": "No, thanks.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he was very happy to accept. He had no choice, really; did he?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-03", "guest": "Jonathan Groff", "title": "In 1981, this Sondheim musical flopped. Now 'Merrily We Roll Along' is a hit", "question_index": 38, "text": "Jonathan, a question for you. A lot of people know you from \"Hamilton,\" where you were King George. And so \"Hamilton\" has such an ensemble cast, but you're always onstage alone. Like, you're the king. You're the British one and everybody in the cast is fighting, like, the Revolutionary War. They want to be done with you. And so in this great ensemble show, like, you're alone onstage singing your King George stuff. Whereas in \"Merrily,\" you're the central figure in an ensemble cast. You're the figure that everybody else revolves around. And so it seems so different to me. Can you just compare those two experiences.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". No. But, yeah, it was lovely. It was really, really lovely. Yeah. Outrageous of me to ask, but he was happy, he was happy."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-03", "guest": "Jonathan Groff", "title": "In 1981, this Sondheim musical flopped. Now 'Merrily We Roll Along' is a hit", "question_index": 39, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I said yes to signing onto \"Hamilton\" for a year, I said yes, of course, because I loved the nine minutes that I got to be onstage as King George. But really, the yes was to be inside of that bri"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-03", "guest": "Jonathan Groff", "title": "In 1981, this Sondheim musical flopped. Now 'Merrily We Roll Along' is a hit", "question_index": 40, "text": "Thank you both so much and thank you for this production. I just enjoyed it so much. Congratulations and good luck at the Tonys. The show is nominated for seven of them, including for each of you. So, you know, I wish you the best.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To scream and show every dark, repressed corner of myself and then lean into the joy, I mean, it really is - it is the gift of gifts."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-03", "guest": "Jonathan Groff", "title": "In 1981, this Sondheim musical flopped. Now 'Merrily We Roll Along' is a hit", "question_index": 41, "text": "Maria Friedman directed the current Broadway revival of Sondheim's \"Merrily We Roll Along.\" Jonathan Groff stars in the role of Frank. The revival is nominated for seven Tonys, including ones for Friedman and Groff. \"Merrily\" runs through July 7. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, MSNBC host Ali Velshi will talk about his ancestors' migrations from a village in India through South Africa, Kenya and Canada. One of the figures in the story is Mahatma Gandhi, who knew Velshi's grandfather and had a powerful influence on the family. Velshi's new book is called \"Small Acts Of Courage.\" I hope you'll join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at @NPRFreshAir.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for the great questions and the great time."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-03", "guest": "Jonathan Groff", "title": "In 1981, this Sondheim musical flopped. Now 'Merrily We Roll Along' is a hit", "question_index": 42, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for the great questions and the great time."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 0, "text": "\"Problemista\" draws on Torres' own experiences as an immigrant from El Salvador trying to overcome the financial and bureaucratic obstacles of the U.S. immigration system. Torres plays an immigrant from El Salvador whose visa is running out and needs a job, someone to sponsor him and money for the lawyers and fees that the renewal requires. Tilda Swinton plays Elizabeth, a potential problem solver, because she offers to sponsor him if he's able to get a museum or gallery show and sell the work of her late husband, which she needs to pay his leftover bills. But she's also a problem creator, demanding the impossible and arguing with everyone. As she keeps assigning more impossible tasks for Alejandro, he's also facing the many problems created by the immigration system. One day, with little time left on his visa, he goes to an ATM and finds his bank account is worse than empty. He actually owes the bank money - a fee because he's overdrawn. Here he is in a scene with the customer service rep from the bank.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry Gross spoke to Julio Torres earlier this year, when his film \"Problemista\" was released. Here she is to set things up."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 1, "text": "OK. Julio Torres, welcome to FRESH AIR. I love the movie. Thank you for being here.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Estefani) I stand with Bank of America."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 2, "text": "You like magic realism, and what's happening in the scene - the scene kind of switches from reality to what's happening in his mind, like, how he's experiencing the scene. And he's actually being kind of choked between the arms of a monster while she's telling him that it's the bank policy and then finally shoots him. So your film keeps kind of alternating between what's happening in reality and what Alejandro is actually experiencing. So I take it you like magic realism or fairy tales, 'cause it's also like a fairy tale, the kind of fairy tale where there's horrible things happening.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 3, "text": "What's the closest you've come to the experience in the scene that we just heard - obstacles you ran into in the immigration bureaucracy that you thought was particularly absurd?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, it just happens to be the way that I am comfortable and feel able to explain feeling and just sort of get to the truth of my experience. I don't sit down and think, oh, I want to write s"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 4, "text": "That's what it takes to renew the visa?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, all the catch-22s of the immigration system, the needing to pay for a visa but not being allowed to work for it, which implies you should have had the money from somewhere else that isn't work"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 5, "text": "You had a student visa?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, when I was doing it, yeah. I don't doubt that it's more expensive now. In my experience, around $6,000, which includes the government fees, but also the fees for the lawyer that because it's s"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 6, "text": "Well, that is - that does seem to be a catch-22. How did you get around that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Originally, I came to the U.S. with a student visa, and then I had a work visa, and then I had to go from a work visa to an artist visa because under the work visa, I wasn't able to earn money as a st"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 7, "text": "What did you do for no money?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", that come from earning no money, which is sort of, like, the only way that you can thread that needle."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, that's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I mean, the irony of that is it's not hard to establish a reputable career as an artist for no money."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 9, "text": "That is very true. That's how I started in...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 10, "text": "...Public radio, even.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 11, "text": "Like - yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 12, "text": "Wait. But they did it funny, so that made it good, I think.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it's not that big of an issue to show that you've done hundreds of shows for free, because that is the truth of pursuing something creative. By that point, I had done enough stand-up that getting t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 13, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They did it funny."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 14, "text": "They made a video called \"Legalize Julio\" and they make a plea on your behalf that, you know, you should be able to stay in the U.S. and you need money to do it, so help him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They did it funny. Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 15, "text": "So when people think of immigrants from El Salvador right now, they think of, like, escaping gangs and poverty and danger. Did that figure at all into you leaving? And what year did you come to the U.S.?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yeah. And it was solved within a matter of hours. This GoFundMe, like, got me where I needed to be within, like, two or three hours. It was just so moving to feel like a part of a community, and "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 16, "text": "So I want to get to the title of your movie, which is...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview from earlier this year with actor, writer, director and comic Julio Torres. His latest movie is called \"Problemista,\" and beginning today, he has"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 17, "text": "...\"Problemista.\" And I thought, like, I'm not sure if that's a real word or if it's a word that you made up 'cause it's a great word.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 18, "text": "So I actually looked it up in a few places, and what it said was that it's a word for somebody who creates problems or solves problems, and it's especially used in chess. But I was talking to you about this right before the interview started, and you said you didn't even know it was a word. You kind of made it up 'cause it sounded like this is something...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 19, "text": "...That would be a word. And it described a lot of your movie. So tell me about \"Problemista\" from your perspective.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 20, "text": "So Alejandro is both a problem creator and a problem solver, though there's a whole lot he doesn't know how to do, and he just kind of fakes his way through.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, to preface it, the road to finding a title for the movie was long. It had many titles during many different points, and none of them felt completely right. And then at one point, we were"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 21, "text": "Since this movie is about problem solvers and problem creators and people who make art out of problems, where are you on that spectrum?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 22, "text": "Give me an example.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I am someone who is certainly attracted to problems and ends up making work inspired by those problems."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 23, "text": "What was the problem?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 24, "text": "Oh, yeah. No, no. That's right. That's right 'cause you have, like, animation. You have, like, special sets...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, obviously, the bigger problem that was solved by the time I made this movie was the visa problem and how that ended up not being a hurdle that I had to overcome to then move on and make work. "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 25, "text": "...You've designed and little worlds...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's crazy."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 26, "text": "...That you've designed and monsters that you've created. It's a lot...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 27, "text": "...For a first film.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 28, "text": "Oh, and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a lot. I really didn't..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 29, "text": "...You have some real stars in it, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I really..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 30, "text": "So continuing with the theme of \"Problemista,\" the Tilda Swinton character is a real problem creator. Her only way of relating is through arguing and making accusation. Her approach to life is to get what you want, become a problem. And part of her philosophy is, always send back the food. So I want to play a scene where your character is in a restaurant with her. And this is at the point where she's throwing all these problems at him to get a show for her late husband's paintings, and these are often insurmountable problems. So they're meeting at a restaurant. She's not going to sponsor him until he succeeds. So meanwhile, like, the waiter comes in, and you both order salads. It's a goat cheese salad, and you ask for it without the cheese. And then you're finishing your salads when the waiter comes back, and that's where we pick up, and here's Tilda Swinton starting off.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yeah. I mean, thank God they're - none of them are high-maintenance people. But to be completely honest, now that I look back on it, I think that I didn't take for granted the access that I felt "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 31, "text": "OK, so there's something so quintessentially New York", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As waiter) OK, so get my supervisor or don't. Those are the choices. I either get him or I don't get him."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 32, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As waiter) OK, so get my supervisor or don't. Those are the choices. I either get him or I don't get him."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 33, "text": "...About Tilda Swinton's character. And I was wondering, like, did you know people like her in El Salvador? Or was this a new kind of creature for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 34, "text": "And in New York?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...In El Salvador, no. Or at the very least, I was never on the receiving end of this kind of creature in El Salvador."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 35, "text": "Tell me more.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 36, "text": "Why do you think you're attracted to difficult people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have zero attention to detail and I can barely keep my own life on track, so the fact that I was ever tasked with doing that for someone else is just a recipe for disaster."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 37, "text": "When we left off, Torres admitted to being attracted to difficult people like those in his film \"Problemista,\" and he said maybe because he's a bit difficult, himself. That made me think of this clip from his 2017 Comedy Central stand-up special.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University. Julio Torres, the actor, writer, director and comic who recently starred in his own film showcase called \"P"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 38, "text": "I think that's hilarious.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm sorry if I seem a little bit distracted. I just got my lab results back and just as every doctor suspected, I'm simply too much."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 39, "text": "OK. So what makes you think that people think that you're simply too much?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had completely forgotten about that."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 40, "text": "Because you're a vegan? Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that I often feel like I don't know how to do the very basic things that you need to do. And so sometimes I feel like I'm this, like, exotic animal that needs, like, very particular things in "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 41, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because I'm a vegan. Yeah. But beyond that, being a vegan who can't cook, being a vegan who..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 42, "text": "What?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Is not a self-sustaining vegan. And then, like, recently, another wall that I've encountered that I put there, but now has become almost, like, a pillar of my being, is that I have never had a cred"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 43, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Have credit."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 44, "text": "Yeah, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And I just don't want one. I aspire to never have a credit card, and I aspire to never have credit or rely on credit for anything. I'm terrified of the idea of owing anything to anyone. I - it w"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 45, "text": "I understand that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think I..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 46, "text": "So continuing with the theme of \"Problemista,\" I just want to get back to the Tilda Swinton character, the character who creates a lot of problems and whose default mode is anger and bitterness and arguing. You've basically designed the character almost as if it was a clown or some kind of rag doll. Her hair is this kind of, like, wild and scraggly, like, fiery orange red. Her cheeks have, like, so much blush on them, they look like her cheeks were painted on. And she's wearing, like, really eccentric, loud clothes. And all of this matches her, like, crazy mood and mood swings. So what was your inspiration for her look? - 'cause Tilda Swinton usually looks kind of ethereal on screen, there's something almost, like, translucent about her.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And I think that makes it so maybe I'll probably never own a home, but I'm sort of at peace with that."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 47, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The hair was one of the very first conversations we had. Talking about her hair was almost like the icebreaker between Tilda and I, and just became the road to becoming friends, like, discussing the h"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 48, "text": "The mother in the film seems just, like, wonderful. She and the Alejandro character, your character, live in the countryside in El Salvador, and she builds, like, a fort for him. I should mention here that your actual mother is a designer and architect. So you grew up probably in a very visual world, which certainly serves you well as a filmmaker and as a comic.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Happened, and then you ended up with that shade of red. It's, like, almost, like, a little purply. And then her haircut. The idea was that her haircut would be at odds with her hair texture so that"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 49, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So early in the film, we see that the mother and son character have a bond and a relationship through creating. And she creates this little, like, castle, which is interesting that you use the w"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 50, "text": "Is she still in El Salvador?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I - you know, I love having a piece of her in what I do. And..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 51, "text": "Oh, so that's beautiful that you were able to emigrate to the U.S., but you have a project together.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yeah. My whole family is there."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 52, "text": "In the movie, the mother, you know, builds this, like, castle or fort or whatever as an alternate reality where the son could be as a child, but it's also a - it's a protected world. It's a world on - like, basically, in the backyard. And she worries that when her son is an adult and leaves to emigrate to the U.S. - that the safe world that she had created for him was something he felt he had to escape. And now all of the problems of the world that she protected him from, he is endangered by. And I'm wondering if your parents experienced that - that they created this, like, safe world for you and a beautiful world with all of their designs, and then you go out to, like, New York City. You...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And we always have a project together, whether it's, like, coming up with a coat rack for my apartment, or I have, like, an event that I need clothes for, and then I send her sketches of what I'"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 53, "text": "So do you think that they worried that, like, you were out of their protected world, and you were going to be exposed to all these dangers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 54, "text": "Well, also, I'm wondering, like, you started as a stand-up comic, right? Is there much stand-up comedy in El Salvador?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "anyone who does what I do. And so yeah. No, they were - oh, my God. I mean, the first, I think, two years, every time I spoke to my mother on the phone, which was often, she would tell me to look both"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 55, "text": "So how were you exposed to it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, at least not in the time when I was growing up there."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 56, "text": "You know, I think that maybe not having a template for comedy 'cause you didn't really grow up with standup helped you find a very original voice 'cause it's not like you were imitating somebody since you hadn't...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview from earlier this year with actor, writer, director and comic Julio Torres whose recent film showcase is titled \"Problemista.\" He has a new comed"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 57, "text": "...Grown up watching it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 58, "text": "A lot of your stand-up comedy is based on, like, giving personalities to objects and talking about, like, colors and shapes. This is not your standard stand-up material. It's not about sex. It's not about neurosis. You impersonate a Brita filter in one of your bits. And I actually want to play another clip. And in this, you're talking about toys and stuff. And I'm going to give away one of the punchlines because I think it's going to be a little hard to hear and you're not seeing it. So I'm just going to help out a little bit by saying this is about one of the Happy Meal toys", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I will say that the very, very first time I did an open mic in New York City - so one thing that I think that people who have never done a comedy open mic don't realize is that the audience in the ope"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 59, "text": "that you saw and how it makes no sense to you. So here's a clip from my guest, Julio Torres, doing stand-up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I will say that the very, very first time I did an open mic in New York City - so one thing that I think that people who have never done a comedy open mic don't realize is that the audience in the ope"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 60, "text": "And in the TV special - and this is from a 2019 HBO comedy special called \"My Favorite Shapes\" - you see the little figure. And he looks like he's singing in an Italian opera", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that combined with power just makes him lash out in really toxic and scary ways. And sometimes, I don't know, I put him in a little car."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 61, "text": ", you know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that combined with power just makes him lash out in really toxic and scary ways. And sometimes, I don't know, I put him in a little car."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 62, "text": "...As opposed to this, like, really evil figure - and priestly...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 63, "text": "You know, this monsignor who's really evil. So it's really funny. You seem to love miniatures and objects. And do you attribute that to, like, your mother being an architect and designer and your father being a civil engineer, so that they inhabited the world of design and objects?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-07", "guest": "Julio Torres", "title": "In 'Problemista' Julio Torres spins immigration stress into satire", "question_index": 64, "text": "Julio Torres, it has been great talking with you. Thank you so much for coming on our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That must be it. But I also think that the creative exercise of attributing personality and stories to inanimate objects is something that most of us have in childhood. I mean, that is literally what "}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm TERRY GROSS. My guest, Ahmir Questlove Thompson, is always involved in multiple projects, which is good for our show because it keeps providing opportunities to have Questlove back on. Today's occasion is the publication of his new book, \"Hip-Hop Is History.\" It's written from his perspective as a band leader, obsessive fan and historian of the music. He's the co-founder of the hip-hop band The Roots, which is the house band for \"The Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon.\" He's won six Grammys. Last year at the Grammys, in honor of hip-hop's 50th anniversary, he produced a 13-minute tribute segment. Sounds like a great gig, but there were a couple of cancellations at the very last minute, literally. He'll tell us how he got through that crisis. Questlove won an Oscar for his film \"Summer Of Soul,\" documenting the 1969 Harlem Cultural Festival, featuring footage of live performances, including by Stevie Wonder, Sly and the Family Stone, Nina Simone, Mavis Staples and Mahalia Jackson. Questlove is also the author of several books, including \"Music Is History\" and \"Soul Train: The Music, Dance, And Style Of A Generation.\" Questlove, welcome back to FRESH AIR. It is always so much fun to have you on our show. So since this is - the new book is \"Hip-Hop Is History,\" I thought we should start with the first rap record that you ever heard, which is the first rap record a lot of people, including me, ever heard. And the song is \"Rapper's Delight\"...", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 1, "text": "...By The Sugarhill Gang. And I know you hate to be Captain Obvious, but this seems to be the place that we should start because it starts you off on your career in hip-hop. So set the scene for us. Where did you first hear this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Rapper's Delight.\""}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 2, "text": "T", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I first heard \"Rapper's Delight\" at my grandmother's house doing the dishes with my sister. We thought it was the disco song \"Good Times\" by Chic. So, OK, we've heard that before. It's the N"}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I first heard \"Rapper's Delight\" at my grandmother's house doing the dishes with my sister. We thought it was the disco song \"Good Times\" by Chic. So, OK, we've heard that before. It's the N"}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 4, "text": "But you didn't become a rapper. You were a drummer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Or should I just stay here frozen looking at the radio? - because, you know, the whole thing is about, like, what am I going to tell my friends, that I heard the song that changed my life, but you can"}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 5, "text": "And become a DJ.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I didn't see - I think everyone starts off their passion as a spectator. And then suddenly they get drawn into it. You know, and the thing is is that with hip-hop culture - I don't know it yet, "}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, well, and become a DJ and a producer and all those things."}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 7, "text": "All right, so let's get back to 8-year-old Questlove, when you heard hip-hop for the first time, and we'll listen to The Sugarhill Gang's \"Rapper's Delight,\" the first commercially successful hip-hop recording.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They're helping me. Like, as a drummer, I'm attracted to the part of the song that just lets the drums go for four bars, eight bars - so automatically a Bill Withers song. And, you know, I'm attracted"}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 8, "text": "So that was the first commercially successful hip-hop record, \"Rapper's Delight\" by The Sugarhill Gang. And my guest is Questlove, whose new book is called \"Hip-Hop Is History.\" You know, you were talking about the importance of sampling. When you say hip-hop is history, the title of your book, hip-hop is literally history in the sense that it's always referring back to the past by sampling things. So hip-hop, like, includes history. I'd like you to choose one of your favorite records for what it samples and how that adds to the recording. And I'm going to suggest that you choose something other than Public Enemy, only because...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) I said a hip-hop, the hippie, the hippie, to the hip, hip-hop and you don't stop the rocking to the bang-bang boogie, say up jump the boogie, to the rhythm of the boogie, the beat. Now, what"}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 9, "text": "...You've talked about them. That's your go-to. We've heard you talk about them on the show before, so I want to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's my go-to."}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 10, "text": "...Hear something else.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 11, "text": "OK, well, let's hear De La Soul.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right, I'll give you probably a better example because oftentimes people ask me, you know, what makes a record hip-hop? I saw The Rolling Stones recently, and I was trying to explain to people tha"}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 12, "text": "That was De La Soul sampling Tom Waits, a track chosen by my guest Questlove, whose new book is called \"Hip-Hop Is History.\" It's time for a short break, so we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) Oodles and oodles of O's, you know. You get them from my sister. You get them from my bro. All I is is man, and once an embryo. Am I solid gold? I don't cast a glow. Yes, I guess it's reflex"}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Questlove, co-founder of the hip-hop band the Roots, which is the house band for \"The Tonight Show,\" starring Jimmy Fallon. He's won six Grammys. His new book is called \"Hip-Hop Is History.\" Last year Questlove was asked to put together a segment for the Grammys, celebrating the 50th anniversary of hip-hop. He said yes before realizing all the drama this would involve. While inviting some people to perform, he'd also have to be the bad cop saying no to others. After negotiating for more time for the segment, he was given 13 minutes. On the night of the Grammys, during the ceremony, one of his big name performers dropped out because security wouldn't let him return to his seat while a performance was in progress. And that made the rapper feel disrespected. That created a four-minute hole in Questlove's presentation. To make things even worse, when the rap album of the year was announced right before the hip-hop history segment, another performer walked out because he didn't win, and he was supposed to be the closing artist in Questlove's segment. Questlove was facing a last-minute fiasco. So what did he do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) Oodles and oodles of O's, you know. You get them from my sister. You get them from my bro. All I is is man, and once an embryo. Am I solid gold? I don't cast a glow. Yes, I guess it's reflex"}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 14, "text": "You were doing your breathing exercise.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I tell you what I did. We had about six minutes left and I told him, like, find me an isolated closet. I'm going to go sit in there. And meanwhile, like, everyone's waiting for me for direction. They'"}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 15, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, 'cause you can't make any decisions if you're in a state of panic, and I needed to just get my Zen moment. And yes, there were six minutes till air, and everyone is waiting outside that door, li"}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 16, "text": "Whereas you were the King of Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And they thought I was crazy. So I said, I need 4 minutes. They're like, but we need to solve the problem. I waited for 4 minutes, and then I thought about it. I said, OK. I know that Lil Uzi Vert, wh"}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And, you know, I understand that. He has a brand, and da da da da. The whole world's at, you know, tugging at the garment of the emperor. So I sent a text to DJ Drama and says, hey, I need you t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 18, "text": "OK, let's get to another phase of music, and that is rap records about guns and gangsters and drugs. And it's been a theme in hip-hop for decades now. And I wonder how you related to it when it started, as a music lover and just as a man, and how you relate to it now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 19, "text": "I don't mean it is an accusation against the music, but it is...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a loaded question, because the thing is, I get quasi-uncomfortable in answering that question because I feel like..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no, no..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 21, "text": "And get terrified", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But the thing is that we live in a period in which most people will immediately associate some of the most darkest things about the music culture, you know, to rap music as a monolith. You know, there"}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But the thing is that we live in a period in which most people will immediately associate some of the most darkest things about the music culture, you know, to rap music as a monolith. You know, there"}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 23, "text": "My guest is Questlove. His new book is called \"Hip-Hop Is History.\" We'll be back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know, on PBS. Of course, it's - if anything is shinier explosive or attention-getting, it's going to get that much more attention. But I don't know. It's hard to answer that question. I grew up "}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 24, "text": "UNIDENTIFIED MUSICAL ARTIST #1: Yo, baby. What's up with that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know, on PBS. Of course, it's - if anything is shinier explosive or attention-getting, it's going to get that much more attention. But I don't know. It's hard to answer that question. I grew up "}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 25, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Questlove. He's the co-founder of the hip-hop band the Roots, which is, among other things, the house band for \"The Tonight Show,\" starring Jimmy Fallon. He won an Oscar for his documentary about the 1969 Harlem Cultural Festival, which included film performances by Stevie Wonder, Sly and the Family Stone, Nina Simone, Mahalia Jackson and Mavis Staples. He's won six Grammys, and last year at the Grammys, he produced the segment celebrating the 50th anniversary of hip-hop. His new book is called \"Hip-Hop Is History.\" So I want to play a song that I know you like a lot. And this is Mac Miller, and his song \"2009\" from a 2018 album called \"Swimming.\" And can you talk about the importance of this song in the history of hip-hop and in your music listening history?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) Hickory, dickory, dock, it was 12 o'clock. Cinderella ain't home, must be giving up the - I don't doubt it. She is kind of freaky, of course. Had a fight with Snow White - she was doing her "}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 26, "text": "I'm really glad you mentioned his inflection because it's really good. And so one of the lines in the song is, it ain't 2009 no more. I know what's behind that door. So talk about what happened - the significance of 2009.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first of all, you know, I chose this song because as a musician, I listen to inflection. I listen to delivery. I listen to a melodic approach. And of course, it's also like the words that you're"}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 27, "text": "Depression.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I mean, he had a lot of struggles."}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 28, "text": "Addiction.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, with depression."}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 29, "text": "Depression?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And - yes, and addiction. He - and he was very kind of forthcoming with his life struggles. And as you see how I divide these chapters up in this book, each chapter is divided by - hip-hop is determin"}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 30, "text": "Do you feel like you have to get into the zone of being Questlove? You know what I mean - as opposed to being Ahmir.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Just every day, I got to wake up, and I think I said it before. Like, you know, I got to do my affirmations. I got to coach myself in the mirror every morning. Even before I spoke to you, like -"}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 31, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I have to get in the zone to not lose Ahmir Thompson."}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 32, "text": "So let's get back to the next recording we're going to play - the Mac Miller.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like, to be Questlove is to be Superman. To be Ahmir Thompson is to be Clark Kent."}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 33, "text": "\"2009\" - so just tell us again, like, what 2009 means in the context of that song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 34, "text": "He was a DUI.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He had broken up with the woman he was dating. It was the beginning of social media and that sort of thing. And he got in a car accident. That was a near-death moment for him in which he really had a "}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Driving under the influence of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 36, "text": "Yeah. And the song, the way I hear it, if I'm hearing it correctly, is about giving up drugs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. Yeah. So to me, this would have been a confessional moment for him, a really confessional, vulnerable moment, which is rarely - not seen in hip-hop to this level."}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 37, "text": "And feeling more alive as a result. But, I mean, he died of an accidental overdose soon after the album was released.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Like, a turnaround."}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 38, "text": "Yeah. Well, let's hear it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's an everyday struggle. It's an everyday struggle. My version of falling off the wagon is nowhere close to, you know, this level of falling off the wagon, but, you know, again, if I don't do my mor"}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 39, "text": "That was Mac Miller, the track \"2009\" from his album \"Swimming.\" And, you know, you were talking about vulnerability and how a lot of, like, hip-hop records don't show vulnerability. I think a lot of hip-hop artists come from an environment where showing vulnerability means people are going to try to take advantage of those vulnerabilities.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) Well, I don't need to lie no more. Nowadays, all I do is shine, take a breath and ease my mind. And she don't cry no more. She tell me that I get her high, 'cause an angel's supposed to fly."}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 40, "text": "And so you can't show them. It's unsafe to show them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 41, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 42, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would never allow, you know - like, my purpose for this is, hey, let's sell my book."}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 43, "text": "Well, let's take a break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Questlove. And his new book is called \"Hip-Hop Is History.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let's talk about this album. Let's talk about this song. But now that I have - I lost the shield of not having fear, and really just explaining that that's what's going to save us, because the thing i"}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 44, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Questlove, co-founder of the hip-hop band The Roots, which is the house band for the \"Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon.\" He's won six Grammys. His new book is called \"Hip-Hop Is History.\" You know, Tariq Trotter, Black Thought - you know, who is a member of The Roots and he's, like, the lead rapper in The Roots - he had a memoir that was published recently. And our co-host, Tonya Mosley, interviewed him about it, and it was really interesting. And part of the interview was about how his mother was murdered and how that changed his life, and how you and your family basically took him in. And you were already good friends. But, you know, it sounds like he lived with you for a while.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let's talk about this album. Let's talk about this song. But now that I have - I lost the shield of not having fear, and really just explaining that that's what's going to save us, because the thing i"}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 45, "text": "Yeah, because he was a musician and toured.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He didn't live with us. But, you know, that was like - it's so weird that that was also, like, one of my first tragedies, you know? I was a protected child living in one of the most volatile times in "}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 46, "text": "And you worked with him. You were, you know, like a member of the crew.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 47, "text": "Even in the memoir, or at least in the interview he did with Tonya, he talked about how your family and you basically saved his life because he could have easily gone in the opposite direction.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Traveling on my father's road show, there were no other kids born in my age range, so I only knew who adults were. And I kind of went through life thinking, like, I had a unique gift. Like, I'm the on"}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 48, "text": "Yeah. Were you able to talk emotionally about what it meant that his mother was murdered, or did you just kind of talk about, you know, music and collaborating?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, he kind of said it in a joking manner once that he got into that life for, like, three days, meaning selling. And his uncle happened to see him on the corner as an amateur corner boy and lit"}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 49, "text": "Exactly. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's so weird. I was - when he announced that to me, when he told me the news, I thought, OK, now I got to get to this level where I'm emotionally there for him, and there's going to be a lo"}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 50, "text": "My guest is Questlove. His new book is called \"Hip-Hop Is History.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It leads back to that. So, yes, when his mom died, I didn't know how to express myself. And it was just like - I kind of figured, OK, let me just normally just be there for him as if this were an arbi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 51, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Questlove, co-founder of the hip-hop band The Roots, which is the house band for \"The Tonight Show,\" starring Jimmy Fallon. He's won six Grammys. His new book is called \"Hip-Hop Is History.\" I would love to talk more, but I'm being told we have to give up the studio. But I want to end with some more music. And I know you love to shine a light on people who you think are underappreciated but are really terrific. Would you like to choose a track to end with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It leads back to that. So, yes, when his mom died, I didn't know how to express myself. And it was just like - I kind of figured, OK, let me just normally just be there for him as if this were an arbi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 52, "text": "Questlove, it's so great to talk with you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would love to. In celebration of Lauryn Hill making Apple Music's No. 1 album, probably one of the last songs that she performed on that's really notable that shows you that she still has a lot of m"}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 53, "text": "And I want to just thank you, too, for talking about vulnerability. I think it's really important.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 54, "text": "I look forward to seeing it when it's done.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's going to be the theme for every project I do henceforth. You know, I'm just wrapping up my Sly and the Family Stone documentary right now, and that's going to play a major part in the narrative"}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 55, "text": "Thank you again. And congratulations on your new book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 56, "text": "That's \"Nobody\" by Nas featuring Lauryn Hill, the track Questlove chose to end our interview. Questlove's new book is called \"Hip-Hop Is History.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be actor and writer Rob McElhenny. He co-created and co-stars in \"It's Always Sunny In Philadelphia,\" the longest-running live action TV sitcom. In 2020, he bought a Welsh soccer team with Ryan Reynolds. The team's successes and struggles is the subject of the documentary series \"Welcome To Wrexham.\" I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) All my time has been focused on my freedom now. Why would I join 'em when I know that I can beat 'em now? They put their words on me, and they can eat 'em now. That's probably why they keep "}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 57, "text": "UNIDENTIFIED MUSICAL ARTIST #3: Two, three.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) All my time has been focused on my freedom now. Why would I join 'em when I know that I can beat 'em now? They put their words on me, and they can eat 'em now. That's probably why they keep "}
{"id": "nx-s1-4998543", "date": "2024-06-11", "guest": "The Sugarhill Gang", "title": "Questlove on hip-hop, history and the first time he heard 'Rapper's Delight'", "question_index": 58, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) All my time has been focused on my freedom now. Why would I join 'em when I know that I can beat 'em now? They put their words on me, and they can eat 'em now. That's probably why they keep "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-27", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 0, "text": "Richard Thompson performing in our studio. You know, I don't know that I could think of another guitarist who combines the best of folk and rock better than you do. And I'd like to, like, go back to when you first got a guitar and ask you about what you were listening to then, what direction you thought you wanted to head in back when you were however old you were.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Jackknife with a precious load spills its guts all over the road. Excuse me. I had to smile. Lost my grip too for a while. I said, easy there, steady now. Easy there, steady now. She didn't "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-27", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 1, "text": "Why'd you want a guitar?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know if I had a direction, you know. I don't think you think when you're that young, or if you do, you're, you know, Mozart or something."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-27", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 2, "text": "What was your father playing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was already a guitar in the house. My father played guitar and there's a lot of guitar music in the house, you know, Django Reinhardt records and Les Paul records. And then my older sister, you "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-27", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 3, "text": "What context did he play in? He was a policeman?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was playing dance band jazz, very badly, though. He wasn't - you know, he was just an amateur musician."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-27", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 4, "text": "So did you teach yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Four Truncheons."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-27", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 5, "text": "Oh, really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I taught myself a bit. My sister's boyfriends used to teach me. A couple of her boyfriends played guitar. So, you know, while they were waiting for her to get ready, which was usually a good couple of"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-27", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 6, "text": "So when you were, say, a teenager, what were the licks that you were trying hardest to learn?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-27", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, you know, the Buddy Holly sort of stuff. So I'm in the right tuning for \"Tell Me How.\" (Playing guitar). You know, sort of Elvis stuff - (playing guitar, vocalizing). You know, that sort of stuff."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-27", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Playing guitar, singing) And away we go. Heave away. Santiago..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-27", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Inaudible) - a lot of that sort of stuff, you know? I used to go to folk clubs as well, so you'd get a real diet, you know? You'd see someone really good."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-27", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 10, "text": "And did they leave a big impression on you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, you'd see Davey Graham. You know, you could see David Graham one week and then somebody, like, really atrocious the next week, but then, you know, you could see blues artists coming to Brita"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-27", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 11, "text": "That's Richard Thompson - great song. I've come to think of that as your \"One For My Baby.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) If she's not here by now, then I guess she's not coming. If she's not here by now, then I guess she don't care. Waiter, I won't waste your time anymore. You've already started to sweeping do"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-27", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 12, "text": "Yeah. Now, what about the story behind the song you just sang?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One for somebody's baby."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-27", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 13, "text": "What made you want to write a song for him? Well, he's a jazz singer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's just really - you know, it's me sitting down, thinking of a story. You know, actually, I was thinking, gosh, I'd love to write a song for Little Jimmy Scott, you know, as one of my favorite sin"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-27", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 14, "text": "Oh, spare me from having to read your lyrics and sounding...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's a jazz singer. He's a very intense performer and singer, and, boy, he sure sounds like he means it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-27", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 15, "text": "...Like I'm giving the squarest reading in the world, so - there's something I want to quote here. Can I ask you to quote the line? This is from \"The Way That It Shows.\" I just think it's a particularly well-written couple of lines here. Can you quote the first few lines?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-27", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 16, "text": "Yeah. I think that's really great writing. I mean, I think...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of that one? (Reading) You're going to give yourself away to some Casanova on the spills and stains of a backstage sofa. He'll catch you yawning with one leg over. Is that enough?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-27", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 17, "text": "I'm not even thinking about the rhyme, but the spills and the stains on the couch - I thought that was really nice. Did you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-27", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 18, "text": "Oh, really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was actually thinking of a backstage in Philadelphia."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-27", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can't remember what the place is called - a really sort of run-down rock 'n' roll theater, and it's got the smelliest couch I've ever seen in my life. Yeah, you can sort of smell the sort of improvi"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-27", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 20, "text": "Who are the songwriters you admire, and did you ever go through a period of trying to write in the manner of different songwriters like you went through a period of trying to play in the style of different guitarists?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Quite disturbing."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-27", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 21, "text": "And they tell whole stories.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think it's a great exercise. I still do it. You know, I still think, well, you know, here's a songwriter who has a great kind of flow or something - you know, why don't I try and write a song "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-27", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 22, "text": "Can I ask you to play a chorus of one of your songs that you feel is especially influenced by traditional Scottish ballads?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, there's so much in a verse, and it's so beautifully pared down over the centuries - just wonderful stuff. So, you know, that's a big influence - and some of the Scottish, you know, writers l"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-27", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 23, "text": "And where you sang it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Gosh. OK. (Inaudible). (Singing, playing guitar) Oh, you speak the words locked in my breast. But it's late for me. Let an old man rest. One more black and tan on the barricade to keep me safe from lo"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-27", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 24, "text": "Yeah. I've really just so enjoyed the concert. I'm so thrilled we were able to do this. I want to thank you very, very much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Scottish, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-27", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 25, "text": "Would you like to close with another song from...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm very grateful you'd have me. Thank you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-27", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 26, "text": "...The new album? Or if you prefer something earlier or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-27", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 27, "text": "Yeah, great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I could do something earlier."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-27", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 28, "text": "Want to do \"Feel So Good\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. What would you like?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-27", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 29, "text": "Yeah. Why don't you do \"Feel So Good\"? This is from a previous album from a couple of years ago called \"Rumor And Sigh.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-27", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 30, "text": "Richard Thompson, welcome back to FRESH AIR. It's always such a treat to have you on the show. I love your music so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I am longing for a storm to blow through town and blow these sad old buildings down - fire to burn what fire may and rain to wash it all away. But the storm won't come. But the storm won't c"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-27", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 31, "text": "You have such a dark sensibility. And I'm thinking about how so much of pop music over the decades, particularly in the pre-Dylan era, were about love and romance and, you know, more-chaste sex 'cause you weren't allowed to use sexually explicit words in the earlier days of pop. But so many are traditional ballads. Like, the ballads of the British Isles that you, you know, started singing are about love and murder and revenge and death and storms at sea and hangings.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. Thank you so much."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-27", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 32, "text": "Happy stuff. Is that part of what you loved about those old ballads?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, happy stuff."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-27", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 33, "text": "What was behind the founding of Fairport Convention? And what made you think that you wanted to and that the band should explore the music of, you know, the traditional British ballads?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it is. I don't know why we are so attracted to that stuff. It's great storytelling. The old Scottish and Irish ballads and English ballads are just wonderful storytelling. And if you gro"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-27", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 34, "text": "The first song that was traditional song that Fairport did was \"She Moves Through The Fair.\" And, of course, Sandy Denny was the lead singer. Why was this the song that was chosen to be the first actual traditional song that the band did?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think we started out as a bunch of friends. Myself and Ashley and Simon were three like-minded, you know, north London teenagers, fairly determined to not be like other bands. I think we thought the"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-27", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 35, "text": "Why don't we hear that recording? And this is Sandy Denny with Fairport Convention, \"She Moved Through The Fair.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when Sandy joined the band, we didn't have a lot of rehearsal time. We were playing shows all the time, and so we had to get Sandy into the band to integrate Sandy into the band as quickly as po"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-27", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 36, "text": "That was an early Fairport Convention song with my guest, Richard Thompson, on guitar.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) My young love said to me, my mother won't mind, and my father won't slight you for your lack of kind. And she laid her hand on me, and this she did say, oh, it will not be long, love, till o"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-27", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 37, "text": "You write that it was hard to keep the sound of unaccompanied singing - the kind of singing that was often done with traditional songs - and the ambiguity of key and the lack of resolution in the melody once you put instruments behind it. Can you elaborate on that, and maybe if you could sing, perhaps, an example of the ambiguity of key and the lack of resolution in the melody that you refer to?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2022 interview with singer-songwriter-guitarist Richard Thompson. He has a new album out called \"Ship To Shore\" and is embarking on a new summer concert to"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-27", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 38, "text": "So how did you deal with it, as a guitarist?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. You know, it's tempting when you grow up in sort of Western music to put anything that's from outside of it into the basic Western chord structure. You know, like, C-F-G or something will fit an a"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-27", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 39, "text": "Well, let's hear the song you were just talking about. This is Fairport Convention.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As a guitarist, I learned from people like Martin Carthy and Davey Graham - some of the great acoustic guitar players in Britain. And as a band, we try to arrange things in that way, and we did a song"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-27", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 40, "text": "So I want to play a song that she sings lead on, and you sing on the chorus, and this is \"Walking On A Wire,\" and it's from the album \"Shoot Out The Lights,\" which was your last album together in 1982. Can you talk about writing this song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, interesting. I think - well, it had to make me empathetic to someone else's point of view - and particularly to write songs from a female perspective is very difficult. And I'm not sure I ever r"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-27", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 41, "text": "Well, let's hear it. So this is Linda Thompson singing lead with Richard Thompson also on vocals. And this is from their album together, \"Shoot Out The Lights,\" recorded in 1982.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's a song about relationships - you know, being right on the edge, really, you know, or up on a high wire, and you can fall off any moment. You know, some people say - not me, necessarily - bu"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-27", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 42, "text": "That was Richard and Linda Thompson from their album \"Shoot Out The Lights\" from 1982. You've said, you know, that it's sometimes hard to tell where a song comes from. They just kind of come to you. When you write songs now, are they coming from a different place at all 'cause you're - you've lived through so much more than you did when you were young. And also, you've written so many songs. I think it's hard for a lot of people to not keep writing the same song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Too many steps to take."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-06-27", "guest": "Richard Thompson", "title": "Fairport Convention band cofounder Richard Thompson looks back on his life in music", "question_index": 43, "text": "Richard Thompson, thank you so much for talking with us. It's always such a pleasure to have you on our show and to have an opportunity to play a lot of your music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think you have to be aware of of writing the same song over and over. On the other hand, if you write the same song over and over, you might finally get it right. I think there's a lot of writing wi"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. After working as a civil rights lawyer, my guest David Tatel served as a judge on the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit, the nation's second highest Court of Appeals with only the Supreme Court above it. In his new memoir, he writes that he became tired of having his work reviewed by a Supreme Court that didn't seem to share the principles he'd dedicated his life to. This week's decision about presidential immunity is an example of why he's lost faith in the court. He's seen the court overturn cases he worked on as a lawyer and as a judge, including voting rights. Last week, the Supreme Court overturned the Chevron decision, a decision that said, courts have to show deference to agency experts when those experts interpret the laws they enforce. This was a disturbing decision for Tatel because the D.C. Circuit on which he served rules on cases related to federal agencies, and many rulings now risk being overturned. Tatel was appointed to the D.C. Circuit to fill the vacancy when President Clinton nominated Ruth Bader Ginsburg to the Supreme Court. Tatel retired from the D.C. Circuit earlier this year. For half of his life, Tatel has been blind as a result of the progressive eye disease retinitis pigmentosa. For years, he kept that hidden from colleagues and the public coming up with techniques and excuses to cover up. Finally, he decided he needed a white cane. He was in his 70s when he was persuaded to get a guide dog. He was surprised by how smart and helpful his dog Vixen proved to be, and by how much he loves her. David Tatel's new book is called \"Vision: A Memoir Of Blindness And Justice.\" He says, only now, in his 80s, has he finally come to accept his blindness as an essential part of who he is. David Tatel, welcome to FRESH AIR. It's a pleasure to have you on the show. I should mention that Vixen, your guide dog, is with you under the table. Is she officially working right now?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 1, "text": "So I guess we won't be hearing from her.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. She has her harness on, and she has a bowl of water in front of her."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 2, "text": "She's supposed to be really quiet now, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 3, "text": "OK. She's not wearing headphones. She wouldn't hear me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Unless you ask her a specific question."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 4, "text": "All right. So this week, the Supreme Court ruled that presidents are immune from prosecution for any acts that are official acts of office. And official acts of office really need to be defined. So how has this decision further eroded your trust in the Supreme Court?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 5, "text": "What would it have meant for you if you hadn't retired this year from the DC Circuit and you were still serving as a judge?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I say in the next to last chapter of the book, Terry, after discussing the voting rights cases, Shelby County and the others. I write that, quote, \"I fear for the future of our democracy,\" close quote"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 6, "text": "This strikes me as a kind of dilemma for the future. Like, you believe in stare decisis, which means leave decisions as is, you know, follow previously made decisions. Is that a reasonable interpretation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was on the court for 30 years, I had no problem being reversed by the Supreme Court. Actually, I think I was probably affirmed more than I was reversed. But like all federal judges, I wrote opinions"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 7, "text": "And so, you know, you exercise judicial restraint. You describe yourself as a judicial conservative, but a political progressive, a social progressive. So that's what you tried to do as a judge, follow previous precedents. But now the precedents are going to be things like presidents have immunity in official acts of office, and overturning Chevron, which we'll talk about in a minute, and gutting the Voting Rights Act. Like, if you were a judge after all those decisions, would you still believe in following precedent, if those were precedents you profoundly disagreed with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 8, "text": "So last week, the Supreme Court overturned a decision, and this might sound very bureaucratic or administrative, but it's actually, like you said, it's about the safety of our food and our drugs, our health. So they overturned what's called the Chevron deference. And it has to do with regulatory agencies, and all of the appeals that get appealed to a high enough court land before the D.C. Circuit, which is where you served, so this is very relevant to 30 years of your life. So tell us about what the Chevron deference is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yes, that was my dilemma. I - as a appeals court judge, I would be bound to follow the precedents of the Supreme Court, which I did faithfully for all my years on the court. That's an obligation"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 9, "text": "So what does it mean, now that Chevron was overturned by the Supreme Court?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It means that when my court reviews an action, say, of the EPA, if someone challenges it as unlawful, if it clearly violates the law, then we rule for the challenger and invalidate it, but if the lang"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 10, "text": "Because everybody's going to challenge them, and the court might rule against them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it means two basic things. One is it means that agencies like the EPA will be far less effective."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 11, "text": "Right, and one of the basic premises of Chevron is that judges know a lot, but they're not experts in environmental protection, and they don't know the percentages of toxic chemicals that will lead to serious illness. You know, this is the kind of thing that experts know, and judges don't have that kind of expertise in the areas that agencies cover. So you made a lot of - you participated in a lot of decisions based on Chevron and applying to regulatory agencies. Will those decisions risk being overturned now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, everybody's going to challenge them, and if the court disagrees with their interpretation of the law, without deferring to it at all, they'll invalidate the regulation, so - and the other dramati"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 12, "text": "I imagine, theoretically, you can start a company just to challenge regulatory decisions.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Terry, that's a really good question, because in Chevron, the court, the majority, assured us - assured us in express terms - that this wouldn't affect any previously decided cases, but in a dec"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 13, "text": "Oh, really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In fact, that's exactly what happened in the case earlier this week."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 14, "text": "Just on an emotional level, what is it like for you to have a decision that you wrote overturned by the Supreme Court, when you profoundly disagree with it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's exactly what happened. An entity was created for that very purpose, and the court accepted that and ruled it could challenge a regulation that my court had sustained - in fact, I wrote the opin"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is David Tatel. His new book is called \"Vision: A Memoir Of Blindness And Justice.\" We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If I disagree with the result, OK, but if I disagree with the process by which it reached that - if the Court ignores its precedent to overrule a decision, or, as it did in the voting rights case, ign"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with David Tatel. His new book is called \"Vision: A Memoir Of Blindness And Justice.\" He was a civil rights lawyer before President Clinton appointed him to serve on the D.C. Circuit Court in 1994, where he remained until retiring earlier this year. I think one of the most heartbreaking Supreme Court decisions for you was the gutting of the Voting Rights Act. What was your role in trying to uphold it when it was challenged?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If I disagree with the result, OK, but if I disagree with the process by which it reached that - if the Court ignores its precedent to overrule a decision, or, as it did in the voting rights case, ign"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 17, "text": "What was your reaction when the Supreme Court gutted the Voting Rights Act?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Voting Rights Act - which was passed originally by Congress in 1965 and sustained, I think, four times by the Supreme Court - was challenged, and the challenge ended up in my court, and I was rand"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 18, "text": "What are some of your concerns about the judicial system if Trump is elected to a second term, especially now that he has criminal immunity when performing official acts of office?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thought it was an easy case. The 15th Amendment expressly gives Congress responsibility for enforcing the prohibition against racial discrimination in voting. It gives that to Congress. And the Supr"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 19, "text": "I want you to talk a little bit about the role of the D.C. Circuit and why it's second only to the Supreme Court in terms of the amount of power it has.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, from the point of view of a judge, my worry is mainly with respect to the process, the authority to appoint judges. He's, in his first term, appointed a significant number of federal judges thro"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 20, "text": "So it's the court that's going to get all the big cases about Trump now, with the new...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. The reason why the D.C. Circuit is called the second-most powerful court is that unlike the other regional circuits around the country, the D.C. Circuit essentially presides over the federal gove"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 21, "text": "...Supreme Court decision about immunity?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 22, "text": "So how come there's three judges on the panel and not just one judge ruling?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. It had - you know, it had the Watergate - all the Watergate cases. It had all the Clinton cases, and now it's getting all the Trump cases."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 23, "text": "Did it work that way in reality?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The statute that creates the court district judges - that is, trial judges, the ones who try cases - they sit alone, but courts of appeals sit in panels of three, and the idea is that - and courts of "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 24, "text": "Did it ever feel like a burden, to have so much power?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it did. It worked that way remarkably well for decades."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 25, "text": "Who appointed the other two - well, I guess just over the series of judges over the 30 years that you were on the D.C.?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, but I thought the principles of judicial restraint were very reassuring because they were a way that I used to assure myself that the power I exercised was only the power that came from the statu"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 26, "text": "And did you feel like that made a difference? Did you feel like, you know, politics or ideology often came between you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there were 11 judges - when I left, there were 11 judges on the D.C. Circuit. I think eight were appointed by Democratic presidents, the rest by Republican, but when I joined the court, most of "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 27, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is David Tatel. His new book is called \"Vision: A Memoir Of Blindness And Justice.\" We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it didn't. I mean, sometimes - well, the system's not perfect, and setting aside your own political and policy views is hard. It's the hardest thing a judge has to do. Most of the time, on my cour"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 28, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with David Tatel. He was a civil rights lawyer before President Clinton appointed him to the D.C. Circuit Court in 1994, where he served until earlier this year, when he retired. He says he became tired of having his work reviewed by a Supreme Court that seemed to hold in such low regard the principles to which he'd dedicated his life. Tatel is blind, something he tried to cover up for years because he didn't want to be seen as disabled or incapable of doing his job. He has a progressive eye disease called retinitis pigmentosa, which was diagnosed when he was 12. His new book is called \"Vision: A Memoir Of Blindness And Justice.\" Let's talk about recusals. A lot of people thought that Justices Alito and Thomas should have recused themselves from cases pertaining to President Trump, especially this case from this week. The decision was handed this week that presidents have immunity, criminal immunity, when performing official acts of office. When did you recuse yourself? What were your standards for self-recusal on the D.C. Circuit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it didn't. I mean, sometimes - well, the system's not perfect, and setting aside your own political and policy views is hard. It's the hardest thing a judge has to do. Most of the time, on my cour"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 29, "text": "Then this would - so, like, paper money would be in separate sizes depending on whether it's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I applied a Tatel five-minute rule to recusal, which is if I had to think about it for more than five minutes, I erred on the side of recusal. And the reason for that is that even though in a few case"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 30, "text": "...A single, a five, a 10, a 20...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 31, "text": "...Etc., so that you can...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 32, "text": "...Feel what's what and not have to ask people...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 33, "text": "...Who you're paying, hey, is this a 20, or is it a $100 bill", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 34, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 35, "text": "Let's talk about losing your vision. You started becoming aware that you were losing your sight when you were 12. Mother took you to the doctor, and he told you to eat a lot of carrots, which wasn't terribly helpful. I don't know if you like carrots a lot. Maybe you enjoyed eating them, but they didn't help your vision. It turned out you had a pretty rare progressive disease called retinitis pigmentosa, in which the person who has it gradually loses their sight. How old were you when you became legally blind?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly, yeah, which I can't do in this country. I can in Mexico, but I can't here because they're all the same size. So I felt pretty strongly about it, but even so, I had no doubt that I could apply"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 36, "text": "Oh, you do? Oh, good.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was diagnosed officially with RP when I was 15. And by the way, Terry, I still love carrots."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 37, "text": "I'm glad it didn't ruin them for you forever.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 38, "text": "What were your ways of covering up that you were losing your vision, before you outed yourself...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I love carrots. There are other vegetables I don't like, but I do love carrots. But even before I was diagnosed, I couldn't see at night, which is a typical symptom of RP. But by 15, I was formall"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 39, "text": "...As being blind?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I love carrots. There are other vegetables I don't like, but I do love carrots. But even before I was diagnosed, I couldn't see at night, which is a typical symptom of RP. But by 15, I was formall"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 40, "text": "Did you ever run into the typical, like, parking garage problem, where it's like, oh, I forgot to remember where my car is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I would go - this is when I was a teenager. When I would go to the movie theater with my friends, I was fine until they turned the lights off, and I couldn't get around, and instead of saying to "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 41, "text": "I mean, and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 42, "text": "...Even in a movie theater, I forgot to count the stairs, or I forgot what the number was - Iike, what row I'm in.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Not my car because..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 43, "text": "And how did you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. The biggest problem for me in the darkness was restaurants. You know, you come from outside, where it's bright, and then you go inside to a dark restaurant. And getting lost in restaurants and co"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 44, "text": "OK, we have to take another break here, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is David Tatel. He's a former civil rights attorney who became a judge on the D.C. circuit and served on it from 1994 until retiring earlier this year. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, well, I used many different - one way, one thing I would do is when we went into the restaurant, I would make sure that if - that I was behind a person, and I kept talking to that person, so that"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 45, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with David Tatel. His new book is called \"Vision: A Memoir Of Blindness And Justice.\" He was a civil rights lawyer before President Clinton appointed him to serve on the D.C. Circuit Court in 1994, where he remained until retiring earlier this year. You had to be vetted...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, well, I used many different - one way, one thing I would do is when we went into the restaurant, I would make sure that if - that I was behind a person, and I kept talking to that person, so that"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 46, "text": "...To become a judge on the D.C. Circuit. Were you still covering up that you were blind at the time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 47, "text": "How did you manage to read thousands of legal briefs and remember their contents without being able to read them and circle things you wanted to remember...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was not - covering it up isn't the right word by that point. By that time, I was using a white, a mobility cane. But I wasn't talking about it. I didn't - before I got my cane, I did everything I co"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 48, "text": "...Or whatever, you know, not being able to use the devices...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 49, "text": "...And clues that sighted people are capable of doing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 50, "text": "Digital technology has changed a lot since you lost your eyesight. What has been the most helpful development in digital tech for you, especially during your legal career, when you had to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, you know, Terry, the brain is an amazing device. It accommodates to the loss of certain features and characteristics. I had a perfectly normal memory when I was growing up. I mean, I was r"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 51, "text": "...Read so many legal briefs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 52, "text": "When you say a reader, do you mean somebody reading to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Technology has been magical. It is a lot easier to be blind now than it was 40 years ago. When the world went digital, you know, my court now, law firms, everybody, everything is digital. There's no m"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 53, "text": "You resisted getting a guide dog for decades.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I had a full-time reader. And when I started at the court, I had a full-time reader, college graduate, who I hired every year, a new one every year, and they read everything that came across my d"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 54, "text": "Why did you finally decide you were going to do it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 55, "text": "How does she know which is the right train?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I didn't resist getting a guide dog. It just didn't seem right for me. It was too much of a - it seemed like you had to go to the facility to learn to use a dog and spend a month there, and I ju"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 56, "text": "She's at your feet under the table.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, well, because when you go down to the platform, the train I get on - she doesn't. I have to do that. I have to tell which train it is, but on the D.C. Metro, it's easy. But after a few rides, she "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 57, "text": "Yeah. No, no.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Vixen is. Not my wife."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 58, "text": "Heck no.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 59, "text": "I should mention for curious listeners that Vixen is a German shepherd.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Vixen's at my feet, ready to serve."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 60, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Vixen is a 7-year-old German Shepherd."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 61, "text": "It used to be your wife who held your hand on walks, who accompanied to the train.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. She's just happily lying there, and when I get up, she'll get up, and we'll leave. So it's been a wonderful experience. This dog - I've had her for four years, almost five years now. And she tr"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 62, "text": "So now she doesn't have to do that. I'm wondering how it's affected your marriage to have Vixen.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 63, "text": "You lost your sight when you were - I think you said you were 35 by the time it was completely gone?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We talked a lot about that while writing this book. I - our marriage - I think it's helped. I think - too bad Edie's not here. You could ask her that question. I think with me being less dependent, it"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 64, "text": "And so your wife - who's about the same age as you are, yes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 65, "text": "So you haven't seen her face since you were 35 and you're now in your early 80s. So that's a long time ago. So when you try to visualize your wife, do you always see her as somebody in her 30s?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Yes, same age."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 66, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is David Tatel. His new book is called \"Vision: A Memoir Of Blindness And Justice.\" We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That is such a good question. I write - I'm going to answer your question, but I write in the prologue that you know, notwithstanding all the success I've had and this wonderful dog, I'd really rather"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 67, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with David Tatel. His new book is called \"Vision: A Memoir Of Blindness And Justice.\" He was a civil rights lawyer before President Clinton appointed him to serve on the D.C. Circuit Court in 1994, where he remained until retiring earlier this year. One of the responsibilities of having a dog, and this is a responsibility that can be a real pain is no matter what the weather is, blizzard, rainstorm, the dog's going to need to poop and you have to take a walk outside with it, right? Then you have to, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That is such a good question. I write - I'm going to answer your question, but I write in the prologue that you know, notwithstanding all the success I've had and this wonderful dog, I'd really rather"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 68, "text": "...Scoop it up and find a way to dispose it and so on. How does it work with a guide dog? They're supposed to be helping you, you got to help them with that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 69, "text": "It is", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And that's part of the magic of this relationship."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 70, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And that's part of the magic of this relationship."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 71, "text": "I asking you about pooping, and it's part of the magic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, because..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 72, "text": "No one else is allowed to, is that what you're saying?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes. And here's why. She - the relationship works only when the dog bonds completely with the human. And so the human has to take care of the dog. Nobody else can feed Vixen. Nobody else can brus"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 73, "text": "So that she relies on you that you are her support?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, I do it all. And..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 74, "text": "Oh, you mean she knows where to go?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And it's my way - I love it because it's my way of giving back to her for everything she does for me. And even going out in the rain at night, taking her out at night. I just feel as if it's my w"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 75, "text": "Oh, really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "After I've picked it up, she takes me to the trash can."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 76, "text": "Oh, that's so interesting. Another interesting thing about your dog, Vixen, is that she will disobey you when you've asked her to do something that poses a danger to you. Like if you say...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 77, "text": "...Like, cross the street or something, and she knows that it's not safe, she will block you from...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 78, "text": "...Moving in that direction. And I kept thinking, like, how do you train a dog to disobey you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 79, "text": "Well, David Tatel, thank you so much for coming on our show, and congratulations on your new memoir.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know how they do it. I think the people that - the programs who breed and train guide dogs are amazing people. And they're extraordinarily skilled. And obviously, they're working with animals "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 80, "text": "Me too. I don't suppose I could get Vixen to bark and say hello.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. I've enjoyed our conversation."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 81, "text": "Too well behaved.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think she'll bark."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 82, "text": "All right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, she just - let me see. Hey, Vixen, come here. Yep. Come here. Come and say hello. Yeah. She's not going to bark. If we could get a squirrel to go by, she might bark."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 83, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But here she is. She just got up. Here, Vixen. Do you want to say hello to Terry? She's a cat person. What do you think?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 84, "text": "All right. I will let you both go.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She's sitting here. I'm scratching her ear. And she's being a very good dog. Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 85, "text": "Oh, for me as well. You take care. David Tatel's new book is called \"Vision: A Memoir Of Blindness And Justice.\" After serving as a judge on the U.S. Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit for 30 years, he retired earlier this year. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at @nprfreshair.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, it's been a real treat. Thank you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 86, "text": "Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, on our July Fourth edition, we'll feature my recent interview with Jon Bon Jovi. He sung his powerful anthems in big stadiums around the world. A couple of years ago, he stopped performing because of vocal problems. We'll talk about the surgery that's enabled him to record again, and we'll look back on his career. A Bon Jovi documentary series is streaming on Hulu. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Shot through the heart, and you're to blame. Darling, you give love a bad name."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-03", "guest": "David Tatel", "title": "A retired federal judge reflects on going blind and losing faith in the Supreme Court", "question_index": 87, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham with additional engineering today from Al Banks. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi, and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) An angel's smile is what you sell. You promised me heaven then put me through hell."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. I hope you've been enjoying this July Fourth. For the holiday, we're featuring my interview with Jon Bon Jovi. This year marks the 40th anniversary of the band Bon Jovi's first album. Since then, the band has sold more than 130 million albums. After decades of singing anthemic songs like \"Livin' On A Prayer,\" \"You Give Love A Bad Name\" and \"Wanted Dead Or Alive\" in sold-out stadiums around the world, Jon Bon Jovi started having vocal problems that got worse over time. He tried every kind of therapy, and when none of them was effective enough to make a significant difference, he did what he wanted to avoid - he had surgery. Although it didn't restore his voice to what it used to be, the surgery made it possible for him to sing again. Now Jon Bon Jovi is the subject of a documentary series called \"Thank You, Goodnight\" that's streaming on Hulu. It alternates between a retrospective of his life and career and his reckoning with his vocal problems over the past few years. In celebration of the anniversary of the band's first album, a new Bon Jovi album called \"Forever\" was released last month. This year, in conjunction with the Grammys, Bon Jovi was named the MusiCares Person of the Year. The tribute concert included a performance by his New Jersey friend, Bruce Springsteen, who Bon Jovi has known since he was a teenager. When I spoke with Jon Bon Jovi in April, we started with the best-known track from the band's first album called \"Bon Jovi.\" The song is \"Runaway.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 1, "text": "That's \"Runaway\" from Bon Jovi's first album, recorded 40 years ago. Jon Bon Jovi, welcome back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) On the street where you live, girls talk about their social lives. They're made of lipstick, plastic and paint, a touch of sable in their eyes. All your life, all your life, all you've asked"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 2, "text": "Congratulations on the anniversary and the documentary and the new album and the successful surgery.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 3, "text": "Oh, me too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's great to be here, and it's great to talk to you again. I looked forward to this interview."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 4, "text": "So let's go back 40 years ago, when the song we just heard was released. What were you hoping for when you released your first album and what did you expect from your future?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 5, "text": "So 40 years ago, when you were starting your recording career, who did you think you would be in your 60s? Did you think you'd still be performing? Did you think you'd ever be in your 60s? 'Cause when you're 20s, you don't think - you know, 60s seems like leaps and leaps away.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Boy. The future was bright, but nobody had any idea where it would lead us. I think that all you could ever have prayed for was that somebody would give you an opportunity. And for me, that opportunit"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 6, "text": "Were you listening to any performers who are the age you are now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, back in those days, I think as far ahead as I'd ever dreamt was the year 2000 because it was that magical science fiction number. Where are we as a race going to be in 2000? At that time, I "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 7, "text": "God, I love Gene Autry.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure, but they were my parents' favorites - Frank Sinatra, Dean Martin, Gene Autry..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 8, "text": "I mean, I love Sinatra, too. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So did I. Somebody just asked what was the first records I recall, and it was Gene Autry, because that's what my mom would play."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 9, "text": "So you're kind of at a turning point in your career because of your voice issues. How do you feel about your voice now and your ability to sing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But - so they weren't going to have been my choices, but they were my parents' choices, but if you had considered, 40 years ago, where would rock and roll be, you know, for men and women who were 60 a"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 10, "text": "How did your vocal cord - how did one of the folds atrophy? 'Cause I think of atrophy happening because you're not using something, whereas for you, if anything, you were overusing it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, what the public are going to see, as of this interview and the docuseries, was shot one and two years ago, and I did have some major issues - things that weren't visible to me, because any s"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that is the bottom line, is that I was overusing it. Even though I'm trained and I have studied the craft for these 40 years, eventually, you know, the body gives out. It's not dissimilar than"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 12, "text": "How did you find the surgeon, Dr. Robert Sataloff, who you finally had the surgery with? 'Cause I know you were so afraid of having surgery, understandably.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I lack in the patience department, but every day I'm at it, you know? Every day is some kind of therapy to try to get back to that 2 1/2 hours a night."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, there are doctors out there that botch these things, or there are doctors that claim that they can fix everything, and those are the ones I ran away from. A friend of mine who was born and r"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 14, "text": "What's the work that you have to do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- he says, but I became a doctor, because I couldn't really find a doctor that understood the intricacies that a singer feels and can express to somebody that's in this field. Anyhow, he promised me n"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 15, "text": "It's like if you're limping and your favor one leg?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It began very slowly with just speech therapies. And then it's vocal therapy that starts as - any singer would understand vocal warmups. But eventually, it's gotten back into retraining the cords beca"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 16, "text": "Yeah. What was the conversation you had in your own head about whether to retire from music or keep at it and try to keep finding solutions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct. Exactly that."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 17, "text": "Well, can't you just write songs that suit your voice now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I jokingly have said I would never become the fat Elvis. And I don't mean that with any disrespect. But I love what I do, and the audience deserve the best of me. And I can only give the best. I'm not"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 18, "text": "Yeah, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This new record."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 19, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yeah. Right. Yeah. So speaking of the new album, we can play a track from it. It's already been released. This is called \"Legendary.\" Here it comes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 21, "text": "That's \"Legendary\" from Bon Jovi's new album, \"Forever,\" which was released last month. We'll hear more of my interview with Jon Bon Jovi after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Oh, oh, oh, oh. Who are you and who am I to think that we could ever fly? It don't pay to even try. Work, get paid and just get by. Sons of sons, bricks on bricks - what's broken, you don't "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jon Bon Jovi. A four-part documentary series called \"Thank you, Goodnight\" that's about him and the band is streaming on Hulu. And a new Bon Jovi album called \"Forever\" was released last month. We spoke in April before the album was released.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Oh, oh, oh, oh. Who are you and who am I to think that we could ever fly? It don't pay to even try. Work, get paid and just get by. Sons of sons, bricks on bricks - what's broken, you don't "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 23, "text": "I want to play another track from the new album. And you've said it's OK to play this even though it's not released yet, so I suppose this is a bit of a scoop.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Oh, oh, oh, oh. Who are you and who am I to think that we could ever fly? It don't pay to even try. Work, get paid and just get by. Sons of sons, bricks on bricks - what's broken, you don't "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 24, "text": "Thank you. I'm really grateful for that. I really like this song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You have my permission."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 25, "text": "And I think it's just a departure for you because it's called \"Kiss The Bride,\" and it's from the perspective of a father whose child is getting married. And so it's different - so different from the more, you know, anthemic and youthful anthems that people associate you with. So can you talk about writing this both from the perspective of the lyrics, but also from the perspective of the vocal range since you've not fully recovered from the vocal problems you were having?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, the whole nation's heard it. Thank you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 26, "text": "Oh, no, really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, once upon a time I wrote a song on an album called \"Crush.\" There was a song called \"I Got The Girl,\" and it talks about a 5-year-old princess, and it was my daughter. And my daughter Stephanie "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 27, "text": "Do you plan on singing this at your daughter's wedding?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She has not heard this song. She may be the only one left on the planet that hasn't heard it because I've been talking about it a lot. She has not heard the song yet."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 28, "text": "It's her choice, I guess.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The intentions are good."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 29, "text": "Well, it'll give you three opportunities to sing it", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Whether or not Daddy can do it without crying is another thing. But, you know, I have three children who are all engaged to be married. And it's a crazy time in our house. Two of my sons and, of cours"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 30, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Whether or not Daddy can do it without crying is another thing. But, you know, I have three children who are all engaged to be married. And it's a crazy time in our house. Two of my sons and, of cours"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 31, "text": "All right, so let's hear it. This is \"Kiss The Bride\" from Bon Jovi's forthcoming album, which is called \"Forever.\" It will be released in June.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 32, "text": "That was \"Kiss The Bride\" from Bon Jovi's forthcoming album that will be released in June. The song is called \"Kiss The Bride\" and the album is called \"Forever.\" I think that this will be sung at a lot of weddings in the future. You know, this will be the song for the parents, kind of like \"Sunrise, Sunset.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) As I walk her down the aisle, wish it were 1,000 miles. My beautiful baby, so beautiful. These tears falling from my eyes, they're taking me by surprise. My beautiful baby, the beautiful bri"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 33, "text": "You know what I mean? The song for the parents to tear up", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) As I walk her down the aisle, wish it were 1,000 miles. My beautiful baby, so beautiful. These tears falling from my eyes, they're taking me by surprise. My beautiful baby, the beautiful bri"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) As I walk her down the aisle, wish it were 1,000 miles. My beautiful baby, so beautiful. These tears falling from my eyes, they're taking me by surprise. My beautiful baby, the beautiful bri"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 35, "text": "What kind of balance have you wanted to have in your life between wanting to, like, stay youthful and hold onto all the things you were able to do when you were in your 20s and started, you know, having a real career and, you know, being in the moment and in the body and mind of the person who you are now in your early 60s?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 36, "text": "I'd be the judge of that but you're probably right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that my goal always was to evolve and not to ever have pretended to be 25 when I was even 35, you know? And when I was 25, I accepted, acknowledged and participated in all the mannerisms"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 37, "text": "The visuals - you mentioned in the documentary that you hated rock videos.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have a feeling that's the case. But, you know, I think part of having a career as I've been blessed enough to have is that our audience grew with us. Now, whether you got on or off the path with us "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 38, "text": "And I was kind of glad to hear that because what always bothered me is that it was somebody's interpretation of the song, or not even - just somebody's idea of, like, great surreal images. And it kind of was so distracting from what the song was saying.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 39, "text": "Is there something you particularly regret being pushed to do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep. You know, it's hard enough to learn your craft and then to learn how to write a song. Then when they thrust upon you the opportunity to make these videos and/or album covers, I can't tell you tha"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 40, "text": "We'll hear more of my interview with Jon Bon Jovi after a short break. A four-part documentary series about his life and career called \"Thank you, Goodnight: The Bon Jovi Story\" is streaming on Hulu. And a new album called \"Forever\" came out last month. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But my life, as I told you, is so blessed, Terry, that, you know, those baby pictures of me and those clothes are public. And that's my penance? I'll accept it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 41, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Jon Bon Jovi. This year marks the 40th anniversary of the band Bon Jovi's first album. They've since sold over 130 million albums and played to sold-out stadiums around the world. A new four-part documentary about Jon Bon Jovi's life and career called \"Thank You, Good Night: The Bon Jovi Story\" is streaming on Hulu. It's part-retrospective and part about his recent vocal problems that led him to have surgery in 2022, which enabled him to sing again. A new Bon Jovi album, called \"Forever,\" was released last month.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Tommy used to work on the docks. Union's been on strike, he's down on his luck. It's tough, so tough. Gina works the diner all day, working for her man, she brings home her pay for love, for"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 42, "text": "So it was your third album that got really popular, and it had your most famous anthems on it, and it totally changed your life and the life of everyone in the band. One of the anthems on that album is \"You Give Love A Bad Name,\" which has the line, shot in the heart, and you're to blame. You give love a bad name. On your first album that was released 40 years ago, you have a song called \"Shot In The Heart\" (ph). That's a completely different song, but it has that shot in the heart line. And I keep wondering, like, how did you decide to recycle the line? And my theory is that shot in the heart is such a good line that you thought, not that many people know that song. I have to put it in a song that really works. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Tommy used to work on the docks. Union's been on strike, he's down on his luck. It's tough, so tough. Gina works the diner all day, working for her man, she brings home her pay for love, for"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 43, "text": "So tell me more.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You pretty much - pretty accurate there."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 44, "text": "So I'm gonna play a little bit of both songs...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Shot through the heart - yeah, shot through the heart. Yes, yes. Yeah, I think that's pretty accurate there. Yeah, to be honest, you know, the title \"You Give Love A Bad Name\" just sounded like a smas"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 45, "text": "...Just to compare them back to back. So we'll hear \"Shot In The Heart\" from Bon Jovi's first album 40 years ago and then \"You Give Love A Bad Name\" from the third album.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Shot through the heart - yeah, shot through the heart. Yes, yes. Yeah, I think that's pretty accurate there. Yeah, to be honest, you know, the title \"You Give Love A Bad Name\" just sounded like a smas"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 46, "text": "Two songs by Bon Jovi that have the line shot in the heart.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Oh, there's nowhere to run. No one can save me. The damage is done. Shot through the heart, and you're to blame. You give love a bad name, bad name. I play my part, and you play your game. Y"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 47, "text": "Jon, what did you learn about songwriting in between that first version of a song with the line shot in the heart and the second version, which was a huge hit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Oh, there's nowhere to run. No one can save me. The damage is done. Shot through the heart, and you're to blame. You give love a bad name, bad name. I play my part, and you play your game. Y"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 48, "text": "You started performing in bars in Asbury Park, where you heard Springsteen in his really early days and Southside Johnny. Can you compare who you were when you were performing at bars in Asbury Park versus when you started performing in stadiums?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it was. Well, like with anything else, one would hope that you get better with time and experience. It was the third album that everything changed. And like everything else, you know, you started"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 49, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, boy."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 50, "text": "Springsteen, when he performs, doesn't wear, like, costumes. You know, it's usually, like, you know, jeans and a T-shirt. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, Southside and Bruce and then, of course, all the members of the E Street band and the Jukes were at least 12-ish years older. So they were not only role models, but they were friendly to the"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 51, "text": "Oh, is that how you think of it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That is his costume."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 52, "text": "That's his logo? Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 53, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's like saying Jimmy Buffett wearing shorts and flip-flops. That was Jimmy."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 54, "text": "Yeah. So when you were performing in bars, you probably just wore, you know, jeans and a T-shirt.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, but anyhow, go ahead."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 55, "text": "Yeah, yeah. So I'd like you to compare - can I use the word persona? When you were performing in bars, compare that to who you were on stage when you started performing in stadiums and if you thought of yourself as having a persona on stage once you started doing stadium concerts.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "T-shirts and jeans. Sure, sure."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 56, "text": "My guest is Jon Bon Jovi. A new Bon Jovi album called \"Forever\" came out last month. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, having grown up in public, you are going to do things and try things and see what kind of shoes fit. And blue jeans and T-shirts were what we were meant to be. But in honesty, in 1984, '85, '86,"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 57, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jon Bon Jovi. There's a four-part documentary series called \"Thank You, Goodnight: The Bon Jovi Story\" that's streaming on Hulu. It's part retrospective about Jon's career and the band's career, and it's about the more recent years when Jon Bon Jovi was having some vocal problems and ended up having vocal surgery, which left him in much better shape and able to record a new album, called \"Forever,\" which was released last month. There's a story I want you to tell that you tell in the documentary series, and it's - you're playing in Russia.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, having grown up in public, you are going to do things and try things and see what kind of shoes fit. And blue jeans and T-shirts were what we were meant to be. But in honesty, in 1984, '85, '86,"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 58, "text": "Yeah. And no one there knows Bon Jovi.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Soviet Union at the time, but yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 59, "text": "No one in the audience. So you felt like - oh, and you didn't want to be upstaged by the other band that they did know, that - I think you were opening for them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 60, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, here's the story."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 61, "text": "Was this, like, as an ambassador from the United States or something?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Our first manager had gotten himself in some trouble. And as a part of his plea, he had asked the courts if he were to put on a show in what was then the Soviet Union. And he took a bunch of bands ove"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 62, "text": "Yeah, I know. But...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, if you want a drug dealer to be your ambassador."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 63, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We went. And it was a bunch of the bands of the era, and we knew everybody. And we were at the height of the \"New Jersey\" record, which was the follow-up to \"Slippery When Wet.\" So we were going to cl"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 64, "text": "That's a great story. I love it. There were some musical movements that almost seemed like counter movements to the costumes and the special effects of big stadium concerts. And I'm thinking of the post-punk bands, the riot grrrls, Nirvana and grunge. What was your reaction to that? And was there an impact on Bon Jovi, on the band?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So therefore, they didn't have \"Livin' On A Prayer\" and \"You Give Love A Bad Name\" or \"Runaway\" on the radio. And so you're playing and winning hearts the way you did when you were a completely unknow"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 65, "text": "My guest is Jon Bon Jovi. A new Bon Jovi album called \"Forever\" was released last month. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My reaction to it was that it was good. Not only was the grunge movement good but much needed. What happens that I've witnessed, that I've lived through this business long enough to see, is when somet"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 66, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jon Bon Jovi. A four-part documentary series called \"Thank You, Goodnight: The Bon Jovi Story\" is streaming on Hulu. And a new Bon Jovi album called \"Forever\" was released last month.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My reaction to it was that it was good. Not only was the grunge movement good but much needed. What happens that I've witnessed, that I've lived through this business long enough to see, is when somet"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 67, "text": "You mentioned cutting your hair. Was that a turning point for you, the decision to do that? 'Cause you were so identified with the hair.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My reaction to it was that it was good. Not only was the grunge movement good but much needed. What happens that I've witnessed, that I've lived through this business long enough to see, is when somet"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 68, "text": "I'm going to accept this as a great music cue. So let's hear \"Keep The Faith\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What amazed and amused me was that CNN wrote about it. You know, that was silly to me. I mean, there's more important things to be writing news stories about. But I've seen it time and again with Harr"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 69, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What amazed and amused me was that CNN wrote about it. You know, that was silly to me. I mean, there's more important things to be writing news stories about. But I've seen it time and again with Harr"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 70, "text": "That's \"Keep The Faith\" from the band Bon Jovi, and Jon Bon Jovi is my guest. Let's talk a little bit about your political activism. You campaigned for Al Gore. You were at his house the night of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Mother, mother, tell your children that their time has just begun. I have suffered for my anger. There are wars that can't be won. Father, father, please believe me. I am laying down my guns"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 71, "text": "Yeah. ...The 2000 election, the contested election. What was that night like? That was one of the most dramatic elections in American history.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Mother, mother, tell your children that their time has just begun. I have suffered for my anger. There are wars that can't be won. Father, father, please believe me. I am laying down my guns"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 72, "text": "Oh, this was - oh...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This was the night he conceded."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 73, "text": "This was, like, after Bush v. Gore ended.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This was his..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 74, "text": "Oh, yeah. OK, I get it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, this is - yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 75, "text": "That he'd - right, right, right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is him saying, no, no."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 76, "text": "Literally banging on the bongos?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And there was a scheduled press corps Christmas party scheduled that he wanted to keep for the members of the press. And I was asked to be there while we were, in fact, all here for a concert, a Chris"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 77, "text": "So you think that lifted his spirits - that concert?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, hell, yeah. I was up there playing and singing, and - you know, and by that point, having a beer because, you know, we had all just had to go through that night."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 78, "text": "You also do work involving the homeless and feeding people who don't have food. How did that become your issue?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that helped us all get through the night."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 79, "text": "I'll second that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, as you, in fact, are in Philadelphia - I've had close roots there for a long, long time, dating back to the very beginning of my career. But in 2003, I was the co-owner of an arena football team"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 80, "text": "I'd like to end with some music. I'd like you to choose a song of yours that you think describes where you are now, like, that really relates to how you're feeling about life or yourself or the world now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So we hit it off, and she's taught me everything I've known for these last 20-plus years. Then in 2008 when the economic downturn happened, it was my wife, Dorothea, who came up with the concept of th"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 81, "text": "Jon, it's been really great to talk with you. Thank you so much. And just congratulations on all that you've done.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know that there are quite a few in my catalog that would be fitting. There's a song called \"These Days\" off of the 1995 album called \"These Days.\" And I think that might sort of say where I'm at tod"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-04", "guest": "Jon Bon Jovi", "title": "'I can only give the best': Jon Bon Jovi on vocal surgery and the road to recovery", "question_index": 82, "text": "My interview with Jon Bon Jovi was recorded in April. The documentary series Thank you, Goodnight: The Bon Jovi Story\" is streaming on Hulu. The new Bon Jovi album is called \"Forever.\" If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, like this week's interview with Emily Nussbaum about working conditions for reality TV show cast members with a focus on \"Love Is Blind\" or Ian Karmel, former co-head writer for \"The Late Late Show With James Corden\" and author of the new memoir, T-Shirt Swim Club: Stories From Being Fat In A World Of Thin People,\" check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. And to find out what's happening behind the scenes of our show and get our producers' recommendations for what to watch, read and listen to, subscribe to our free newsletter at whyy.org/freshair. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Ann Marie Baldonado, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Susan Nyakundi and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) She came looking for some shelter with a suitcase full of dreams, to a motel room on the boulevard. I guess she's trying to be James Dean. She's seen all the disciples and all the wannabes. "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today we're featuring the interview I recorded with David Byrne last fall.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 1, "text": "He's a founding member of the band Talking Heads, one of the seminal bands of the punk-new wave period of the '70s. They weren't exactly punk, but they weren't like any band that came before them. They recorded eight albums between 1977 and 1988, when they stopped playing together. When we spoke last fall, the 40th anniversary restored edition of their concert film \"Stop Making Sense\" had just been released with a remastered soundtrack. Many music critics and fans consider it among the best concert films ever made.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 2, "text": "So who would have thought? David Byrne, welcome to FRESH AIR. Welcome back.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is a long way to go. Who would have thought?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 3, "text": "Great to have you on the show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. Good to be back."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 4, "text": "Yes. So let's start with \"Psycho Killer,\" the first song Talking Heads wrote, which is on their first album, \"Talking Heads: 77.\" And it also starts off \"Stop Making Sense.\" So you walk on stage with a boom box. You put down the boom box. It plays the rhythm track. You play along on your guitar and start singing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's been a really long time."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 5, "text": "So, David Byrne, \"Psycho Killer\" was the first song that you wrote with drummer Chris Frantz and bass player Tina Weymouth. What was the germ of the idea? Was it your idea to write a song about a serial killer? Do you think of him as a serial killer or just a kind of really bad date?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Can't seem to face up to the facts. I'm tense and nervous, can't relax. Can't sleep, bed's on fire. Don't touch me. I'm a real live wire. Psycho killer, qu'est-ce que c'est? Fa-fa-fa-fa-fa-f"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 6, "text": "Were you fans of each of them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Well, I don't know if he's a serial killer. But, yes, somebody who's kind of deranged and is a killer. And it was an experiment to see if I could write a song. Chris and I had a band, and we play"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 7, "text": "'Cause they're kind of on opposite extremes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 8, "text": "Oh, so that's why.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Kind of on opposite extremes. So I thought I'd have the dramatic subject that Alice Cooper might use but then look at an interior monologue the way Randy Newman might do it. And so I thought, let's se"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 9, "text": "What does he say in French? I don't - I've never - it's like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I went to Tina, who had grown up some of the time in Brittany, and her mother's French. I said, oh, can you help me? We want him to say something pretty grand here - better say it in French so that - "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 10, "text": "I love that song so much. Now, you also sing the fa-fa-fa in there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh. It's like, I realized my destiny. It's very kind of old-fashioned. I think Tina said, this is very Napoleonic kind of French. It's very kind of, I realize my destiny. I must do what I must do - th"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 11, "text": "Otis Redding.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. That was a little reference to Otis Redding."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 12, "text": "OK. I was wondering about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 13, "text": "...'Cause he had - \"Sad Song\" has - it's also called the \"Fa-Fa-Fa.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, absolutely it was."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 14, "text": "It's a parentheses song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. So that was a little..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 15, "text": "You do the deranged version of it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, a little parentheses, a little thing where I reference an Otis Redding song in there. I'm not sure exactly why."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 16, "text": "Yes, no, exactly - a character song like Randy Newman.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. But, you know, well, that's the subject. That's the voice of the guy who's singing."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 17, "text": "So Talking Heads started by stripping everything away and then later adding things in. So I'm going to quote you from your book \"How Music Works\" in terms of what you stripped away. You wrote you wanted no rock moves or poses, no pomp or drama, no rock hair, no rock lights, no rehearsed stage patter, definitely no noodling guitar solos. So why did you want to remove all of that? And is there anything you left out in that sentence that you wanted to remove?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. So - but that was - to me, that song was unique in everything that we did in that once we did it and we started playing it around the schools in Providence, people liked it. They said, we want to"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 18, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that covered a lot of it right there."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 19, "text": "But then you started adding things in, and it wasn't the things that you wanted to take out. But it was things like, you know, more - an expanded rhythm section, a more theatrical presentation, as we see in \"Stop Making Sense.\" And what you're doing on stage during that concert in \"Stop Making Sense\" is - for a lot of the film, you're basically jogging in place very rhythmically and very energetically. And I don't know how you managed to do that and sing at the same time. Then the backup singers end up doing that, too. So, like, you're not doing fancy dance moves, but it's so kinetic, and your - I don't know. Your body - even when you're not doing the jogging thing, your body just seems to be pulsing with the rhythm. Like, your chest is pulsing. Your head is pulsing. So that's the choreography for you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The idea was I was aware that other contemporary acts, people around us - some of them were adopting poses or clothes or guitar styles or whatever that seemed to be from a previous era, from a previou"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 20, "text": "It was maybe more of a twitchy rhythm, but it was rhythm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, there's other things that are a little more elaborate, but, yes, a lot of it is really kind of just moving with the rhythm of the songs. When we expanded the lineup - the performing line"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 21, "text": "So I just want to ask you about the big suit that you wear for a little bit of the performance in \"Stop Making Sense.\" And in the credits, it says the suit was built by. It doesn't say costume designer or designed by. It says built by as if it were, like, architecture.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It was more twitchy, and then now it became more funky and more sensuous in a way. And I thought, oh, this makes me want to move in a different way. And I can't stop. I can't resist moving."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 22, "text": "More like a box.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's true. It is. And it's also true that I didn't go to someone and say, I just want a big suit. I had a little drawing of what I wanted the end product to look like - very sketchy. It was just a l"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 23, "text": "The suit has become iconic, but what was it like to inhabit it? How did it change you as a performer onstage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's more like a box, a flat box that's facing the audience. And it's meant to face forwards. So we had to realize I had to wear a kind of girdle underneath and put the pants on. The pants attached to"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 24, "text": "I didn't matter. It sure made an impression.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I started wearing the big suit, I realized that it had a life of its own because it kind of just draped down like curtains from my hips and shoulders. I could wiggle a little bit, and it would ri"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 25, "text": "That's not what it was.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yes. People have interpreted it as meaning, like, oh, this is the archetypical businessman kind of imprisoned in his suit, imprisoned in his whole situation."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 26, "text": "Right. My guest is David Byrne. The restored version of the Talking Heads concert film \"Stop Making Sense\" is streaming. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it might have been. That might be unintentional, but it might be there, but I don't deny it. But it wasn't my intention to kind of - oh, I want to kind of make fun of businessmen."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 27, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with David Byrne, a founding member of the band Talking Heads. A restored and remastered 40th anniversary edition of the band's concert film, \"Stop Making Sense,\" is streaming. After Talking Heads, Byrne went on to start his own record label, collaborate on experimental theater pieces, win an Oscar and be nominated for another and create Broadway shows, including \"American Utopia\" and \"Here Lies Love.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it might have been. That might be unintentional, but it might be there, but I don't deny it. But it wasn't my intention to kind of - oh, I want to kind of make fun of businessmen."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 28, "text": "So let's hear another song from the film, \"Stop Making Sense.\" And I want to play \"Burning Down The House,\" which is one of your best-known songs. And it holds up so well so many years later. So now it's sometimes interpreted about being about global warming, climate change, you know, burning down the house, fight fire with fire. What were you really thinking of when you wrote it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it might have been. That might be unintentional, but it might be there, but I don't deny it. But it wasn't my intention to kind of - oh, I want to kind of make fun of businessmen."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 29, "text": "Or the world is burning.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The phrase burning down the house I'd heard being used as a chant at a Parliament Funkadelic concert that I'd seen. They didn't have it in a song. It was just a kind of chant that they started chantin"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 30, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 31, "text": "I'm so glad you said that because, you know, I've never understood exactly, what is this song about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And the rest of it - I thought, let me see if I can make a song that is basically a lot of non sequiturs that have a kind of - some kind of emotional impact. They have some kind of emotional resonance"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 32, "text": "I love it, and I love the individual lines. But, yeah, I can never find, like, what is the narrative here?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 33, "text": "Sure, yes, and rhythmic sense.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. So, like the film title, it doesn't make literal sense, but it makes emotional sense."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 34, "text": "Yeah. All right. Let's hear it. This is the version from the concert film \"Stop Making Sense.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 35, "text": "That's Talking Heads from the 40th anniversary restored edition of \"Stop Making Sense,\" the Talking Heads concert film. So I'm going to quote you again from - this is from your book \"How Music Works.\" And you're talking about dancing, and you say, (reading) a nerdy, white guy trying to be smooth and Black is a terrible thing to behold.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Watch out. You might get what you're after. Cool babies - strange but not a stranger. I'm an ordinary guy burning down the house. Hold tight. Wait till the party's over. Hold tight. We're in"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 36, "text": "(Reading) I let my body discover little by little its own grammar of movement, often jerky, spastic and strangely formal. How did you come up with who you were onstage moving in space and not doing, you know, either, like, Temptations moves or hip-hop moves?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Watch out. You might get what you're after. Cool babies - strange but not a stranger. I'm an ordinary guy burning down the house. Hold tight. Wait till the party's over. Hold tight. We're in"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 37, "text": "Yeah, and I'm going to interrupt you right there for a second because one of the things you do in addition to jogging in place is you kind of stagger or stumble around stage - around the stage very intentionally. You know, and it looks like you're almost going to fall, but you don't. And I thought, like, that is so Twyla Tharp because she - her choreography is, like, normal movements elevated to dance. And, like, stumbling, staggering - that's one of those normal movements that I've seen her use.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wow. Yes. I had to resist kind of adopting moves that I loved that I'd seen other people do. And so I think - yeah. By that time, I'd worked with Twyla Tharp. She did a evening-length dance piece call"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 38, "text": "So you were inspired by her approach to movement.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. So I was around when they were rehearsing things and doing a lot of that kind of movement - not that I lifted any directly. But I thought, oh, there's - oh, this is the vocabulary of what's avail"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 39, "text": "My guest is David Byrne. The new restored version of the Talking Heads concert film \"Stop Making Sense\" is streaming. Let's listen to the concert film version of the Talking Heads song \"Life During Wartime.\" We'll hear more of my interview with David Byrne after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was inspired by her and the stuff that she was doing. I was inspired by a lot of folk dance or dance that I'd seen on kind of ethnographic films of rituals, stumbling and the stuff on \"Once In A Lif"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 40, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with David Byrne, a founding member of the band Talking Heads. A restored and remastered 40th anniversary edition of the band's concert film \"Stop Making Sense\" is streaming. Byrne has since gone on to start his own record label, Luaka Bop, collaborate on experimental theater pieces, win an Oscar and be nominated for another and create Broadway shows, including \"American Utopia\" and \"Here Lies Love.\" Let's talk about the early music in your life. Was guitar the first instrument that you got?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Heard of a van that is loaded with weapons, packed up and ready to go. Heard of some gravesites out by the highway, a place where nobody knows. The sound of gunfire off in the distance - I'm"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 41, "text": "How'd you like it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it was a violin. First I had a hand-me-down violin."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 42, "text": "The guitar became more comfortable for you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a very difficult instrument to get it to sound nice. It's not like you can - once you can play some notes, that they sound good. You can play notes, but they sound bad for a long time. So it's no"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 43, "text": "Yeah, absolutely.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, yeah. And it was just - it was the iconic instrument for kind of..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 44, "text": "Yes. Good and bad musicians all played guitar", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Rock music."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 45, "text": ". Was rhythm the first thing that really captured you in music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Rock music."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 46, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I think it was texture. I think that one of the first things I heard was on a little transistor radio - was The Byrds' version of \"Mr. Tambourine Man.\" And I'd never heard any sound like that, the"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 47, "text": "No, it doesn't.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It doesn't sound like that."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 48, "text": "Is that what your parents had - is mostly Broadway?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thought, there's another world out there."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 49, "text": "OK. Yeah, so The Byrds would definitely be different.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. They had some. They also had Scottish folk music and Mozart."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 50, "text": "What were the first songs you learned to play?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so that said, There's a whole another world out there. This is just - you're getting a peek at it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 51, "text": "So what did you think of your singing voice then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I decided to teach myself. So I think I went and got a Bob Dylan songbook and probably a folk songbook that had, you know, the chords written in, maybe a Beatles songbook, maybe some other kinds of th"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 52, "text": "Well, apparently the choir teacher in your junior high or high school felt the same way. What I read is - tell me if this is true - that you were rejected from choir because you were off-key and - what? - too self-conscious or uncomfortable.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I didn't think much of it. I thought it was - of course, it sounded better to me in my head than what I heard on recordings. But I thought, I'm doing this because I'm writing the material, so I'm "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 53, "text": "So did that make you think, OK, give up? Like, this - you're bad. No one wants to hear you. You should stop singing for anyone. Give up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, definitely off-key. Yes, yes. I was asked to leave the school choir. Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 54, "text": "Yeah. When somebody tells you you're not even fit for high school choir...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Why is it that people don't give up? That's a real puzzle to me. I didn't..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 55, "text": "The songs...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, or they tell you your paintings are ugly, or, this idea you have of doing this project or company or whatever - it's a stupid idea. And sometimes people persist, and they're - sometimes they're r"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 56, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll be back with more of my interview with David Byrne. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, songs by The Who or The Kinks or different people like that."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 57, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with David Byrne, who is, among other things, a founding member of the band Talking Heads. A 40th anniversary restored and remastered edition of the band's concert film \"Stop Making Sense\" is streaming. I want to go back to the early days of Talking Heads. I want you to describe your first night at CBGB on a double bill with the Ramones. You opened for them. CBGB was, like, the most famous of the New York punk-new wave clubs in the 70s. Did you already know the Ramones when you opened for them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hey."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 58, "text": "But musically...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We opened for the Ramones. I think probably the first time, we didn't know them that well personally. We'd maybe said hello."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 59, "text": "What were you dealing with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But musically, yes, we'd seen them play a couple of times there. And we knew what we were dealing with. We knew that..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 60, "text": "So you were considered part of the punk-new wave scene in New York. When I interviewed Seymour Stein, the co-founder of Sire Records, the label that signed Talking Heads, he told me that he came up with the expression new wave because the promotion people for Sire were describing Talking Heads as punk. But Stein thought you were, quote, \"the furthest thing from punk.\" Did you feel like the furthest thing from punk?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We knew that they did kind of hilarious pop songs, but musically, it was like this roar. It was like standing next to a jet engine or something. And so - and we often got called, you know, an art rock"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 61, "text": "You've often been described as not the most social person. I read one description that, at a party, you'd be the person sitting alone in the corner. So as somebody who, I assume, is something of a loner socially - I don't know. I'm just...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We felt that, yes, musically, we sounded very, very different. And visually, we felt very, very different than what was then considered punk rock. But this kind of DIY, the do-it-yourself idea that wa"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 62, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Less so now. Yes, there was definitely a time when that was the case."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 63, "text": "No, no, right, right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have to make clear that it didn't mean I was unhappy."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 64, "text": "Right. But being somebody who was more of a loner than, you know, a group person, what was it like for you to be or at least be perceived as part of a scene?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 65, "text": "You've described yourself as being on the autism spectrum, although you've never been officially diagnosed. Can I ask what makes you think you're on the spectrum?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "At first, I found it really annoying because I thought of myself and what we were doing as being very unique and being part of a whole kind of scene or style or name or whatever it might be. I thought"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 66, "text": "So what sounded like you, what characteristics?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A friend told me. This was - what year was it? - early 2000s, late '90s, maybe. A friend of mine picked up a book about the autism spectrum, which was kind of a - it's an old idea, but it's an old ide"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 67, "text": "What about, like, repeating things over and over, whether it's, like, listening to something over and over again or seeing something over and over again or doing a gesture or a movement over and over again?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Like, when - sometimes having a conversation with someone, they'll say something. And by the tone of their voice or their look or whatever, they'll understand that they're telling me no. But I'll he"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 68, "text": "Especially when you're doing the same movement over and over.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wow. I hadn't even thought of that. I think you might be right. I mean, some of that is what dancing is."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 69, "text": "Do you find it soothing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. That - sometimes there's a kind - yeah. There's an attachment to that kind repetition that it actually has a - when something is repeated, it has a different meaning than when it's done just once"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 70, "text": "So when your friends had suggested that maybe you're on the autism spectrum and you thought, yeah, yeah, maybe. Why didn't you bother to get an official diagnosis?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 71, "text": "My guest is David Byrne. We'll be back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Probably because I thought, this is just me. I'm not unhappy. I might be a little bit different than some other people, but I'm not unhappy. This is the way I experience the world. But I'm doing fine."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 72, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with David Byrne, who is a founding member of the band Talking Heads. A 40th anniversary restored and remastered edition of the band's concert film \"Stop Making Sense\" is streaming. I don't think Talking Heads was ever famous for, like, love ballads and that - you know, those kind of songs. But you've recorded them. And I wanted to play one. I don't think this is one of your best-known songs, but it's from your 1997 album \"Feelings,\" which was your fifth studio album, and it's a song called \"A Soft Seduction.\" I think it's a really good song, and it's just really interesting to hear you singing a ballad like that. Can you say a little bit about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Probably because I thought, this is just me. I'm not unhappy. I might be a little bit different than some other people, but I'm not unhappy. This is the way I experience the world. But I'm doing fine."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 73, "text": "When did you realize that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That - I was - thank you. I really like that song, too. I realized as life went on that I could write really beautiful, moving melodies occasionally."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 74, "text": "Well, let's hear it. This is David Byrne singing his song \"A Soft Seduction.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, little by little. It was a very gradual process. I also was listening to other people, other musicians, whether it was, you know, like, Paul McCartney or Caetano Veloso or others, who could write "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 75, "text": "So that was David Byrne from his 1997 album \"Feelings,\" and the song was called \"A Soft Seduction.\" It's a song he wrote. You know, when I think of \"Feelings,\" I think of that song, \"Feelings.\" Were you concerned that people would think that that was one of the songs that you did on it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) The words of love are not enough, though sweet as wine, as thick as blood. Passionless moments and we are homeless, out on the street. But life is cool, and things aren't bad - got what he w"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 76, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thought that would be very funny if they thought that I was doing that song, and I thought it was also funny that myself - it was intentional that..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 77, "text": "How timely now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was often portrayed as being a little bit cold and analytical in my songwriting and performing. So I thought it might be funny to call a record \"Feelings,\" especially coming from me. And I also put "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 78, "text": "That would be back in fashion. One of the things you do in some of your songs is a kind of speak-singing that reminds me of, like, a cross between some Kurt Weill songs and Lou Reed. And I'm wondering if either of them have been inspirations to you in that style that you have.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 79, "text": "I want to get back to something that you said earlier. You know, you said that you've changed in terms of being social, that you think you're more social than you used to be more comfortable around people. What changed? Like, how did that change evolve?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Both of them have been inspirations to me. I was a big fan of Velvet Underground when I was younger, and I had never heard anything like that - not the kind of music they did but also the kind of subj"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 80, "text": "It seems like that's a great way of having a community without having to have - without necessarily having to have, like, heart-to-heart, personal, emotional discussions because it's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a really good question. I think it changed - music helped me socially that - as you can see in \"Stop Making Sense\" - and \"Stop Making Sense,\" this concert and film, is kind of a model of what h"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 81, "text": "You know, seriously. Like, you're relating through music, and you're with each other, like, onstage. You have this, like, totally engaged, like, loving audience, but you don't have to interact with them. You know, like, you're separated from them. You're onstage. They're in the audience. So it's kind of both at the same time, the sense of connection with people but also being a part.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 82, "text": "I just want to say it has been so much fun to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". There wasn't this feeling of danger of falling into total social engagement. But there was enough that kind of it opened the door."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 83, "text": "Yes, you were on our show in 1992...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. Thank you. It's been too long."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 84, "text": "...A long time ago.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 85, "text": "Yeah. It's great to talk again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 86, "text": "David Byrne co-founded Talking Heads. His record label is called Luaka Bop. The 40th anniversary restored and remastered edition of the Talking Heads concert film \"Stop Making Sense\" is streaming. We'll close with a song from the film, the band's cover of Al Green's \"Take Me To The River.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You, too. Thank you very much."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-05", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "For David Byrne, Talking Heads was about making emotional sense \u2014 not literal sense", "question_index": 87, "text": "To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at @NPRFreshAir. Monday on FRESH AIR, our guest will be Taffy Brodesser-Akner, author of the novel \"Fleishman Is In Trouble,\" which she adapted into a Hulu series. She'll talk about her new novel, \"Long Island Compromise,\" which is about the kidnapping of a rich businessman and its impact on his children who discover their wealth will only go so far to save them. I hope you'll join us. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering support by Joyce Lieberman, Julian Herzfeld and Al Banks. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Take me to the river. Drop me in the water. Take me to the river. Drop me in the water, water. Don't know why I love her like I do, all the trouble you put me through. Take my money, my ciga"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 1, "text": "In case you didn't catch the name, that was Bernie Madoff, the biggest financial swindler in American history. This was one of about 50 phone calls Madoff made to my guest, financial investigative journalist Richard Behar, while Madoff was in prison. He was serving a 150-year sentence for 11 felony charges, including securities and investment fraud, filing false statements to the Securities and Exchange Commission and perjury. Madoff also sent Behar hundreds of emails and dozens of handwritten letters. We'll hear recorded excerpts of some of the interviews Behar conducted with Madoff. You can't trust a fraudster and pathological liar to tell you the truth, and Behar didn't. His new book, \"Madoff: The Final Word,\" is largely based on the interviews he conducted with Wall Street insiders, prosecutors, FBI agents and people who lost most or all of their money investing through Madoff's company, Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities, or BLMIS. The company had a legit side, but the other side was a Ponzi scheme, involving fake stock certificates that convinced buyers the stocks were actually purchased and profitable. $68 billion of assets investors thought they had disappeared overnight once the fraud was discovered. Tens of thousands of people lost the money they'd invested, in addition to the profits they were told they'd earned. Those investors included family trusts, charities, colleges, pension funds, hedge funds, celebrities in the worlds of entertainment, sports, architecture and business, and individuals, like Behar's Aunt Adele. Madoff was arrested in 2008 and died in 2021 in a federal prison in Butner, N.C. He was 82. The story isn't over. There's still more than 100 legal battles surrounding Madoff's scam. Richard Behar is a contributing editor at Forbes Magazine and has worked for Time and Fortune. He's won Polk Awards, oversees Press Club Awards and a National Magazine Award. Richard Behar, welcome to FRESH AIR. Why are you interested in Bernie Madoff?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "An inmate at a federal prison. This call is being recorded and is subject to monitoring. To hear the cost of this call, press 8 now. To accept this call, press 5 now."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 2, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hi. OK."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 3, "text": "We'll hear more of that story a little bit later. I want you to describe the Ponzi scheme, how it worked, in easy-to-understand language, 'cause there's some complicated parts here, but you can boil it down to the essence with the fake documents.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I've always been interested in investigative reporting and made a career out of it. I've done pieces on fraudsters from Wall Street, including a very lengthy feature - I think it was the only on"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 4, "text": "So you invest money in Mr. B's investment company. They buy you fake stocks. And then when you're supposed to be paid dividends or profits when you sell it, I've invested money, too, so you get the money I've invested as if it was your profits. So there's never a whole lot of money in the coffers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, a Ponzi scheme is really one of the oldest frauds in human existence. It's essentially taking from Peter - robbing from Peter and paying Paul. An investor gives you money. You promise them lucra"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 5, "text": "Until people start trying to sell at the same time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. But the more he can raise money from people and from funds and globally, which he did, the bigger the pot becomes, and really the easier it is to run and grow the Ponzi. This is..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 6, "text": "Let's back off a second. So one floor in the office where Bernie's firm was located - one floor was devoted to churning out these fake stocks, these fake investment papers. So you think that people should have noticed that these documents were fraudulent. So describe the difference between, like, a real trade statement and the fake ones that Madoff churned out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Until people start trying to sell, and there's a run on Bernie and a financial crisis, as there was in 2008. A Ponzi is a zero-sum game - money in, money out, nothing invested. In Bernie's case, backd"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 7, "text": "The reason perhaps they look so archaic was because they were created on very, very old obsolete computers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "First off, a real statement is something you could actually go online and look up at your broker and see. Bernie Madoff did not allow investors to go online and look up their accounts. Paper statement"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 8, "text": "Other signs that the documents were fraudulent included that some of them were dated on holidays when no bank transactions or stock transactions take place. There were misspellings. That should have been signs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The computers were obsolete and barely in existence elsewhere. They were IBM computers from the 1980s, kind of chugging along like old locomotives. And these computers were not even connected to the 1"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 9, "text": "There were, like, 50- to 20% returns. Like, that's incredible.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Trading on weekends, trading at times, yes, when the markets are closed - all of those should have been signs. But the biggest sign of all is those returns are impossible to be consistent year after y"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 10, "text": "It was literally incredible - not believable, because it wasn't true.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's incredible."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 11, "text": "Six hundred?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it absolutely is incredible. And that's pretty much what the average was, but his favorite investors could get as much as 600% in some cases."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, those are handsome gifts.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 13, "text": "And Madoff skimmed money from this Ponzi scheme for himself and his family?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not bad."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 14, "text": "So there's no evidence that Bernie Madoff ever really bought or sold any stocks from the investment adviser part of the company, the Ponzi scheme part of the company?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He did, although remarkably, he wasn't the biggest gainer. His biggest investor, a man named Jeffry Picower, earned billions from the Ponzi scheme. It's hard to know how much Bernie and his family bur"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 15, "text": "Bernie Madoff had been chairman of the Nasdaq stock exchange, and he was considered a leader and an innovator in using automation, and that's pretty funny, considering the old computers that created the fake documents. Did being chairman of Nasdaq give him credibility, and how did he become chair? I mean, how did people not notice? How did he rise to such a high level when he was running this incredible international scam?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's absolutely right, and Bernie's story was always that the scam only started in about 1992, but I was able to determine that it was actually a scam from the beginning, from within a year or two a"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 16, "text": "No? Why not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "the press realizes or has reported, frankly, but he did get involved in various committees. He talked his way there. Peter was the intelligent geek, who was the automator and new technology. So, yeah,"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 17, "text": "You mentioned that, you know, Madoff is Jewish - was Jewish - and there were a lot of Jewish investors and Jewish-identified institutions that invested with him. And did that give other Jewish investors confidence, that he was Jewish, that there were a lot of Jewish investors? What are your thoughts about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Didn't call prosecutors. There's sort of a code on Wall Street that you just go about your business, and you don't contact regulators, for fear that they'll start looking in your offices. You just "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 18, "text": "Yeah. Well, he was one of the most famous survivors of the Holocaust, and, you know, wrote and spoke extensively about it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I got to tell you, oy, I ran into Elie at a charity lunch, and I said, do you ever heal from this? And he said, no, but we've been through worse."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 19, "text": "What profits?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yeah. I'm sure you wouldn't take Bernie's word on hardly anything, in spite of the extensive interviews you did with him, but we'll get to that a little bit later. Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guess is financial investigative journalist Richard Behar. His new book is called \"Madoff: The Final Word.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think his point was he feels that Elie was taking money out, allegedly, or that his foundation at one point did well, but I don't know if that's true, and frankly, I wouldn't take Bernie's wor"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Richard Behar, author of the new book \"Madoff: The Final Word.\" Behar is a financial investigative journalist and a contributing editor at Forbes Magazine. So JPMorganChase is a major figure in this story, because virtually all the Ponzi scheme money was in one checking account at JPMorganChase. So that means the investors who invested - their money went into this checking account, and when Bernie had to pay somebody out because they wanted to cash in, that money, the payout, came from this checking account, so we're talking a lot of money.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think his point was he feels that Elie was taking money out, allegedly, or that his foundation at one point did well, but I don't know if that's true, and frankly, I wouldn't take Bernie's wor"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 22, "text": "That's kind of strange for a checking account, no?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. We're talking billions and billions. In one day alone, $100 million went in and out, and over the life of that Chase checking account, about $150 billion moved in and out."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 23, "text": "Give us a sense of how they were making money from Bernie. Is that through - that's not through the checking account. That's through other channels?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. If that happened in my checking account, I think there'd be armed guards towing me away with chains, but Chase turned a blind eye to it. Chase was making a lot of money off of Bernie in all kinds"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 24, "text": "Let's talk about how you started your correspondence with him. How did it start?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There were many units of Chase that were making money from Bernie and also not communicating with each other, so if one unit was suspicious of Bernie, the other unit was not told. There are units of C"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 25, "text": "So that made you feel sorry for Bernie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I reached out to Bernie, requesting an interview, a few months after he was arrested. I didn't hear back, which was fine with me. At that point in time, he was being bombarded by reporters, and I alwa"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 26, "text": "And that's how it started.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It did. Well, of course, feeling sorry for Mark and his family - who wouldn't? But I also felt sorry for Bernie having to endure that kind of grief in prison as a human being. And I sent a card - a co"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 27, "text": "Was he a talker? Did he chew your ear off?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's how it started, and I have to tell you, by the end of it, I had enough of him. He'd call, I don't even want to take his calls anymore."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 28, "text": "This reminds me of some people I've interviewed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And the problem with Bernie, and this is the problem, by the way, with a lot of con men, is that they won't let you ask a series of questions. Each phone conversation is limited to 15 minutes by "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 29, "text": "Especially people in politics who have their own agenda, and they don't want to answer your question. They just run out the clock.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 30, "text": "Can I elaborate on that? They told you that people who are pathological liars will sometimes end a sentence with and so on and so forth, which is a clue that they're not really prepared to fill in the details of the backstory because they haven't taken the lie that far yet. So they just bridge it with, meh, so on and so forth.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that's right. Politicians do that. I had interviews with FBI behavioral psychologists who spent decades at the famous serial killer unit. I don't know if you saw the series \"Mindhunters,\" but it'"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 31, "text": "So what do you get out of interviewing a pathological liar? You knew Bernie most of the time was not telling you the truth. So what's the point?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. The FBI experts told me that, and so on and so forth is what they call a text bridge, which is a way basically to not explain any details. I had this problem with Bernie for 10 years, in which I "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 32, "text": "OK, let's take a short break here. And I promise as soon as the break is over, we're going to hear some of those recorded interviews that you did with Bernie Madoff. If you're just joining us, my guest is Richard Behar, and his new book is called \"Madoff: The Final Word.\" We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm fascinated with how their brains work and whether I could figure out what they're saying that's accurate and what's not because they do tell the truth on certain stuff. And I thought, well, Bernie"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 33, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Richard Behar, author of the new book \"Madoff: The Final Word.\" It's about Bernie Madoff, the man behind the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history. As part of his investment firm, he served as an investment adviser, with a wealthy clientele that included celebrities, colleges and philanthropic organizations. The stocks they invested in were just phony documents, and the profits they thought they'd made didn't exist either. When Madoff was arrested in December 2008, about $68 billion in money his clients thought they had disappeared overnight. While serving his 150-year sentence, Madoff made about 50 phone calls and sent hundreds of emails to Behar. Behar's book is based on that correspondence and on interviews with Wall Street insiders, prosecutors, FBI agents and people who lost most or all of their money, including Behar's Aunt Adele. She invested through Madoff's company, Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities, or BLMIS. Madoff died in prison in 2021 at the age of 82. So let's hear one of the excerpts of the interviews you recorded with Bernie Madoff while he was in prison, serving his 150-year sentence, and this is about, like, did he ever think he was going to get caught, and was there a moment of realization when he realized that was going to happen? So you speak first.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm fascinated with how their brains work and whether I could figure out what they're saying that's accurate and what's not because they do tell the truth on certain stuff. And I thought, well, Bernie"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 34, "text": "So that was my guest, Richard Behar, interviewing Bernie Madoff in prison. Bernie says, some people say you could have stolen the money and walked away, and he says, but I never did. I had to see this through, regardless of consequences. I'm trying to figure out - what did he mean, I had to see this through? Like, see the scam through? Like, what is he seeing through? It's not, like, a great accomplishment. Do you know what I mean? He was never going to pay the people, so what does seeing it through mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...The consequences were."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 35, "text": "So the tape we're about to hear next, that you recorded with Madoff while he was in prison, is about, does he take responsibility for the Ponzi scheme, and has he forgiven himself? So you speak first in this excerpt.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a good question. I think he meant see it through in terms of just people getting their money back, not running and hiding in some country with billions he claimed he could have access to. Bernie "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 36, "text": "So that's an excerpt of an interview that my guest, Richard Behar, recorded with Bernie Madoff while Madoff was in prison, and, you know, first, I want to know, you sound kind of sympathetic to him in this - you know, oh, will you ever forgive yourself? I'm not sure I'd ask that of somebody who created such loss for so many people, you know, who created this Ponzi scheme. I'd want to know if he took responsibility and if he felt guilty. I'm not sure I'd ask if he'd ever forgive himself. Why did you ask him that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it's just something, and, you know, quite frankly, I never get over that."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 37, "text": "And so even though you ask Madoff, will he ever forgive himself, you write in your book that you find it hard to sympathize with his sons. Of course, you acknowledge that somebody has to be in great pain to die by suicide, and - but you think they were pretty complicit. What was their role in the company? 'Cause Madoff says, like, they didn't know - they just felt so betrayed by me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just assumed that because he said he had remorse over the Ponzi - whether he actually did have full remorse - that he probably would have remorse over the loss of his son and feel guilty about it, a"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 38, "text": "The legit end.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there's no evidence that the sons knew it was a, quote-unquote, \"Ponzi scheme.\" But there was a lot of fraud going on, including between the so-called legit unit and the illegitimate unit. For e"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 39, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The legit end."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 40, "text": "Madoff basically says that, you know, Ruth didn't know anything about this. She had nothing to do with it. She wasn't part of the business. Now, she admits to working on the books, being a bookkeeper, very early in the company's history in the early 1960s, but then she says she was out of the company. But the FBI agents working on this gave her the nickname Ruthie Books.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The legit broker-dealer unit, and the boys were running that unit - they were sitting at the trading desk. Their Uncle Peter was overseeing them. What did they think was going on? How was the most suc"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 41, "text": "What did they think her role was in the company?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 42, "text": "She was never indicted, was she?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ruthie Books, like an old-time mobster doing the numbers on the streets - Ruthie Books was great at math, and she was reconciling the Ponzi account for decades after 1963, right up until the last year"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 43, "text": "Well, we have to take a short break here, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Richard Behar. His new book is called \"Madoff: The Final Word.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ruth was never indicted. And there is certainly no evidence that she knew it was a Ponzi scheme. But again, the whole thing's filthy. At what point - I mean, this is sort of like just a filthy operati"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 44, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Richard Behar, author of the new book \"Madoff: The Final Word.\" Behar is a financial investigative journalist and a contributing editor at Forbes Magazine. So I have one more tape excerpt that I want to play, and thank you for sending us these excerpts of your interviews with Bernie Madoff while he was in prison. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ruth was never indicted. And there is certainly no evidence that she knew it was a Ponzi scheme. But again, the whole thing's filthy. At what point - I mean, this is sort of like just a filthy operati"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 45, "text": "Oh, that's great. That is great to know. So I want to play another tape excerpt of your interviews with Bernie Madoff while Madoff was in prison. And I may use the word entertaining, this is the most entertaining of the clips that you sent because it has to do with a movie about Bernie Madoff and his wife Ruth in which De Niro played Bernie, and Michelle Pfeiffer played Ruth. And I have to point out that the FBI, one of the FBI agents you spoke to you, said that in addition to being a fraudster and a pathological liar, that Bernie was a narcissist. So that will lead right into this clip.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. Thank you for playing them. There are other excerpts in the audio book you can hear."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 46, "text": "OK, so that was Bernie Madoff being interviewed by my guest, Richard Behar, while Madoff was in prison. I love that, you know, Madoff says, like, oh, I always knew it would be De Niro, you know? Like, who goes around thinking, like, of course, De Niro's going to play me?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. You know, I think he's probably - you know, he looks somewhat like me, so I think he's probably a good choice. I always assumed it would be him."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 47, "text": "Yeah. Does he?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I look like him."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 48, "text": "Let's talk about your Aunt Adele, who invested with Bernie Madoff. How did she come to invest with him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's the - yeah. He could at times. That's the ultimate narcissist. That movie and other TV shows and books have portrayed Ruth and the sons as innocent victims. I have reached a different conclusion "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 49, "text": "So they invested in a fund that Bernie handled.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My Aunt Adele and my uncle Al started investing with Madoff through a kind of a feeder fund, a small feeder fund."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 50, "text": "So she kind of invested first in a fund that Bernie handled. And then directly with Bernie. Can you say how much money?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And that fund was shut down by the SEC in 1992. And Bernie's clients from that fund went directly with Bernie. My aunt said Bernie called her and said, do you understand the stock market? Are you"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 51, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, of course. I asked her after this thing blew up. I said, how much did you have? She said, well, personally, $6 million."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 52, "text": "Oh, gosh. So she must have felt responsible for their losses.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I said, 6 million dollars? Wow. And she said she had another 10 million that she was handling for friends and family members. So that's a lot."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 53, "text": "How does she get so much money?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, to a degree. But look, her view is - she refuses to call herself a victim, and I admire that. She said, no way. She took her chances. She did give most of her money away to scientists in a"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 54, "text": "So it sounds like she got - she cashed in some of her investments with Madoff?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she initially made about 1 million or two doing some very smart real estate purchases in the 1970s and '80s, and slowly started putting it into Bernie. You know, that's the way these things happ"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 55, "text": "Ah. OK. And you mentioned - just to, you know, be totally ethically clean on this, that she gave you a few thousand dollar to - as a down payment for an apartment years ago in the early '90s, I think.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, but she never lived lavishly at all. It wasn't her thing. She gave it to science. She regretted not being able to do it after she lost everything."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 56, "text": "And then gave you a few thousand dollars a few years later for furnishing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 57, "text": "So you feel like you benefited from Bernie Madoff's scam.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 58, "text": "Oh, you were reporting there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Unbelievable. I mean, I was never an heir to any of her money. You know, as I say in the book, thank God. But yeah, she helped me with 50% of a down payment I had to do when I was younger. It wasn't m"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 59, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's kind of funny that parasite Bernie..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 60, "text": "Yeah. Well, that'd be great. Let me reintroduce you. My guest is financial investigative journalist, Richard Behar. His new book is called \"Madoff: The Final Word.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Kind of helped cure my African parasite. But no, this was - it's tainted money, and I just, you know, only recently, did I - was I actually - I was asked about it, do I feel any remorse having the "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 61, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Richard Behar, author of the new book \"Madoff: The Final Word.\" Behar is a financial investigative journalist and a contributing editor at Forbes magazine. You know, I want to ask you another question about your aunt Adele. You describe her as, like, a surrogate mother for you. You grew up in foster care. You never knew your parents. Do you know your backstory?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Kind of helped cure my African parasite. But no, this was - it's tainted money, and I just, you know, only recently, did I - was I actually - I was asked about it, do I feel any remorse having the "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 62, "text": "Well, I'll ask you one more thing about Bernie Madoff. He said to you, so where's the book already?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I've - it's interesting. I - maybe this is why I became an investigative reporter. Maybe that's what a shrink would say, but I - it was a backstory I really didn't want to know until I was much "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 63, "text": "You'd been talking to him for, like, years, like, 10 years, 15 years, no book, and he said to you, you're not going to finish this book until after I'm dead, and he was right. You finished this book after he was dead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I've - it's interesting. I - maybe this is why I became an investigative reporter. Maybe that's what a shrink would say, but I - it was a backstory I really didn't want to know until I was much "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 64, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I didn't intend to. I mean, there were times when I said, oh, Bernie, maybe this summer, I think I'll do it. But there was so much to investigate. There was - one of the prosecutors on a lot of "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 65, "text": "Well, that's a depressing thought.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it's a blessing and a curse, and, you know, that's me, so - it's funny. Gay Talese - Gay's in the book. I interviewed him. Gay Talese, who - I couldn't write a sentence even approaching any of his"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 66, "text": "But you were working - you know, you were working. It wasn't just in a ditch.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I got five years on him there."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 67, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, and I wasn't just working on the Madoff book, thank God."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 68, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because, I mean, look - but I did. I said to Arthur Levitt, the former chairman of the SEC - I said, Arthur, Bernie and I are apparently in prison for life..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 69, "text": "And you were in the Bernie prison", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And - but he gets - look, Bernie gets free food, and I've got to boil my boots for my soup at night sometimes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 70, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And - but he gets - look, Bernie gets free food, and I've got to boil my boots for my soup at night sometimes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 71, "text": "Yeah. Well, thank you for your book. Thank you for joining us on the show. It's really been a pleasure to talk with you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Bernie prison. I used to have dreams - that's when you know it's enough, when you dream about Bernie."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 72, "text": "Richard Behar's new book is called \"Madoff: The Final Word.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll talk about the new labor union movement in America and the resurgence of manufacturing jobs, many in electric vehicles and green energy. Our guest will be David Madland, senior adviser to the American Worker Project at the Center for American Progress. I hope you'll join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram, @nprfreshair.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. It's been a great pleasure for me."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-10", "guest": "Automated Voice", "title": "'Madoff' takes account of the biggest financial Ponzi scheme in history", "question_index": 73, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. It's been a great pleasure for me."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-12", "guest": "Martin Mull", "title": "Remembering Martin Mull, an actor, comic, musician and painter", "question_index": 0, "text": "You've said that to say that art school changed my life would be a vast understatement. It created it. How did art school change your life?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was in 2016, when even on the looser standards of HBO, Martin Mull could swing for the comic fences, which he had done for his entire career. Back in 1995, the gay characters played by Mull and W"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-12", "guest": "Martin Mull", "title": "Remembering Martin Mull, an actor, comic, musician and painter", "question_index": 1, "text": "So is there any connection to be made between your paintings and your comic persona?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, gee, let's see. I'm sure that's probably more literate than it need be, but I actually do feel very much that way. I grew up in northern Ohio in a very small, little agrarian community and was w"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-12", "guest": "Martin Mull", "title": "Remembering Martin Mull, an actor, comic, musician and painter", "question_index": 2, "text": "So you weren't making money selling paintings.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I would have to say that my comic persona paid for almost all of the paint used in the making of these works. And if that sounds like a flip answer, it's actually more true than you might imagin"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-12", "guest": "Martin Mull", "title": "Remembering Martin Mull, an actor, comic, musician and painter", "question_index": 3, "text": "So how did you go about fashioning a persona for yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not for a long time. And initially, my forays into show business were simply to fund my art that - while I was in college during the folk music scare of the '60s, when that stuff almost caught on,"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-12", "guest": "Martin Mull", "title": "Remembering Martin Mull, an actor, comic, musician and painter", "question_index": 4, "text": "Overequipped, underachieving.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, part of the - my performance persona, I think, was fashioned after other performers and especially other performers who seemed to be up the creek without a paddle, the ones that were totally at "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-12", "guest": "Martin Mull", "title": "Remembering Martin Mull, an actor, comic, musician and painter", "question_index": 5, "text": "What do you mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-12", "guest": "Martin Mull", "title": "Remembering Martin Mull, an actor, comic, musician and painter", "question_index": 6, "text": "Oh, somebody who's getting by on very little talent.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, you have it just the opposite. It was underequipped and overachieving."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-12", "guest": "Martin Mull", "title": "Remembering Martin Mull, an actor, comic, musician and painter", "question_index": 7, "text": "You also developed this kind of, like, smug, oily public, you know, persona in some of your performances.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very - someone squeezing by on very little talent and trying to make the most of it. And, gee, that may be close to the truth."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-12", "guest": "Martin Mull", "title": "Remembering Martin Mull, an actor, comic, musician and painter", "question_index": 8, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that would come hand in glove with what I just said."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-12", "guest": "Martin Mull", "title": "Remembering Martin Mull, an actor, comic, musician and painter", "question_index": 9, "text": "And there's also the sense of, in some of the performances, the really square person who thinks he's really hip.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The underequipped but overachieving and refusing to - just undaunted in his ability to ever admit to his failures."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-12", "guest": "Martin Mull", "title": "Remembering Martin Mull, an actor, comic, musician and painter", "question_index": 10, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly, or that he's not only hip but a major success even when he's not. I recall once there was a concert when - put it this way, crowd control was not one of our problems..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-12", "guest": "Martin Mull", "title": "Remembering Martin Mull, an actor, comic, musician and painter", "question_index": 11, "text": "So how did you get around this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had gone out to California on the heels of a divorce with a couple of guitars and a suitcase and had been a big fan of \"Mary Hartman\" and went to see Norman Lear's organization about the possibility"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-12", "guest": "Martin Mull", "title": "Remembering Martin Mull, an actor, comic, musician and painter", "question_index": 12, "text": "\"Fernwood 2 Night\" was, I think, one of the early examples of television mocking itself.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I looked desperately for anything to try to take the focus off that which I was and that which I was doing. There was one scene, in fact, when I actually even had to - at least the camera had to think"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-12", "guest": "Martin Mull", "title": "Remembering Martin Mull, an actor, comic, musician and painter", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well, TV mocking its own programs - the cheesy, small-town, amateur version of \"The Tonight Show.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "At its lowest."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-12", "guest": "Martin Mull", "title": "Remembering Martin Mull, an actor, comic, musician and painter", "question_index": 14, "text": "And why don't you describe your character as the host?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-12", "guest": "Martin Mull", "title": "Remembering Martin Mull, an actor, comic, musician and painter", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well, after, you know, mocking TV on \"Fernwood 2 Night\" and \"Mary Hartman\" and everything, you ended up where you are now, on \"Roseanne\" - you know, one of the top-rated shows for years, the top-rated show - playing Leon, who - you got hired to be her boss.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "His name was Barth Gimble. He would wear lime-colored sharkskin suits and atrocious shirts, Hawaiian shirts, bleached his hair, trimmed his mustache down like Don Ameche and basically thought, as far "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-12", "guest": "Martin Mull", "title": "Remembering Martin Mull, an actor, comic, musician and painter", "question_index": 16, "text": "How did you get on \"Roseanne\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-12", "guest": "Martin Mull", "title": "Remembering Martin Mull, an actor, comic, musician and painter", "question_index": 17, "text": "Now, I want to go back to 1980, which I think is the year that you were diagnosed with terminal cancer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, at that time, Roseanne and Tom Arnold, who was her husband, lived a few doors away. I had known Rosie for a couple of years prior to that. We had done some local talk shows, and were just kind o"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-12", "guest": "Martin Mull", "title": "Remembering Martin Mull, an actor, comic, musician and painter", "question_index": 18, "text": "I guess they were wrong.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-12", "guest": "Martin Mull", "title": "Remembering Martin Mull, an actor, comic, musician and painter", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. They were, and the Marcus Welby Award for Bedside Manner..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-12", "guest": "Martin Mull", "title": "Remembering Martin Mull, an actor, comic, musician and painter", "question_index": 20, "text": "Oh, no.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Has to go to this bozo from UCLA, who called me up and gave me two years to live over the phone..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-12", "guest": "Martin Mull", "title": "Remembering Martin Mull, an actor, comic, musician and painter", "question_index": 21, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Which, right there, it occurred to me could be cause of death."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-12", "guest": "Martin Mull", "title": "Remembering Martin Mull, an actor, comic, musician and painter", "question_index": 22, "text": "So how did you change gears after you were given this prognosis?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, phone call - cause of death. You know, that's what the autopsy would have to list. I mean, to get this kind of news over the phone - I don't know. And they were all set to inject me with som"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-12", "guest": "Martin Mull", "title": "Remembering Martin Mull, an actor, comic, musician and painter", "question_index": 23, "text": "Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, painting became the most important thing in my life at that point, and..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-12", "guest": "Martin Mull", "title": "Remembering Martin Mull, an actor, comic, musician and painter", "question_index": 24, "text": "Now, have you, over the years, showed the people who you worked with in show business your paintings? And I can think of a couple of reasons why. One is so that they could be very impressed with your work.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because I realized it was probably the truest thing to me, that it was the area where I wanted to do the most work. I also shifted my - my marital situation changed. I shortly thereafter remarried, my"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-12", "guest": "Martin Mull", "title": "Remembering Martin Mull, an actor, comic, musician and painter", "question_index": 25, "text": "Another is so they could just learn more about you, and still a third is some people in show business are very wealthy, and maybe they'd buy some.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because I realized it was probably the truest thing to me, that it was the area where I wanted to do the most work. I also shifted my - my marital situation changed. I shortly thereafter remarried, my"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-12", "guest": "Martin Mull", "title": "Remembering Martin Mull, an actor, comic, musician and painter", "question_index": 26, "text": "That's great. Well, Martin Mull, I want to thank you a lot for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". The nice thing about some of the people in show business is they are kind of depression-proof. They do have this kind of slush fund that allows for the buying of art. Steve Martin, whom I mentioned "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-12", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering 'Chinatown' screenwriter Robert Towne", "question_index": 0, "text": "As a screenwriter and director, you have to work with silences in movies, and I think you've used silence very effectively both as a screenwriter and director. In \"Chinatown,\" for instance, there are scenes where Nicholson is trailing, for instance, Faye Dunaway, and, I mean, there isn't any dialogue in that, but it's very gripping, and you had to imagine that in your mind. In \"Personal Best,\" there are sequences where there really isn't a lot of dialogue at all. It's very visual. It's very - it's interactive between the two characters. Does silence have a different meaning when you're writing and when you're directing, and is it frustrating, as a writer, to write silences in?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In addition to writing his own screenplays, Towne was brought in as a script doctor for \"Bonnie and Clyde\" and \"The Godfather.\" We'll hear later about the scene in \"The Godfather\" that he wrote. In 19"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-12", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering 'Chinatown' screenwriter Robert Towne", "question_index": 1, "text": "You wrote the screenplay for \"Chinatown.\" Roman Polanski directed it. Polanski played a small role in the film. He played the part of a henchman who's hired to intimidate Nicholson to get off the case, and what Polanski does is take out a pocket knife, stick it into Nicholson's nose and basically slit his nostril open. Whose idea was it to cast Polanski in the role? Was it yours or his?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it's - I think that so much of screenwriting is what I guess you would call, if you were an architect, negative space. In screenwriting, what you don't say is at least as important as what you do "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-12", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering 'Chinatown' screenwriter Robert Towne", "question_index": 2, "text": "The line that you gave him to say was, know what happens to nosy fellows? They lose their noses. Why did you want to cut the nose? It seems like such an interesting, really offbeat way of hurting somebody", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that was Roman's idea."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-12", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering 'Chinatown' screenwriter Robert Towne", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that was Roman's idea."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-12", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering 'Chinatown' screenwriter Robert Towne", "question_index": 4, "text": "What was very subversive about it is that it meant that Jack Nicholson, the leading man, had a bandage on his nose for half the movie, and even when he took the bandage off, he had a big cut and stitches on his nose.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", and it was that, and it seemed appropriate for a detective anyway - a detective who is, you know, like a hound, you know, sniffing out the trail of some kind of criminal or villain. It just seemed l"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-12", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering 'Chinatown' screenwriter Robert Towne", "question_index": 5, "text": "I want to ask you a little bit about writing a climactic scene, a scene in which there's really a turning point in the story or in their character development. In \"Chinatown,\" the real turning point scene, or at least one of them, is when Faye Dunaway reveals that the woman whose identity she's been hiding is really her daughter, as a result of an incestuous relationship. Her father - the Faye Dunaway father - had raped her when she was 15, and I want to just play a clip from this scene and then ask you a little bit about the considerations in writing this kind of climax.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, once again, in most movies, you can see people fight in a way that would have crushed skulls, created probably, you know, quadriplegics on - with both combatants, and they emerge unscathed from "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-12", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering 'Chinatown' screenwriter Robert Towne", "question_index": 6, "text": "It's really such a dramatic way of bringing across that revelation and to have - especially with the slaps in between. You know, I don't know if people can make that out", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Evelyn Cross-Mulwray, crying) She's my sister and my daughter."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-12", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering 'Chinatown' screenwriter Robert Towne", "question_index": 7, "text": "in the clip that we heard. But can I ask you about planning that - writing that climax and if you had written in the slaps, if you thought that that would add to the drama of the moment?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Evelyn Cross-Mulwray, crying) She's my sister and my daughter."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-12", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering 'Chinatown' screenwriter Robert Towne", "question_index": 8, "text": "\"Chinatown\" has one of the most often repeated lines of recent film history, and that is just about the last line of the film. Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown. And that's said by one of Nicholson's assistants after everything's gone wrong, after Faye Dunaway has been killed and the evil father is free. How did you come up with that line? Did you realize it would have as much resonance as it did and that people would be repeating it for years after?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yes, they were written in. I think that any revelation of any kind is only credible, particularly one that is shameful. At least whether or not there's any moral stigma attached to it, it certai"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-12", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering 'Chinatown' screenwriter Robert Towne", "question_index": 9, "text": "In a way, in Hollywood, one of the ways you got your start was as a script doctor. You were brought in to solve problems on movies that, I guess, had serious problems with them. You were brought in as a script doctor for \"Bonnie And Clyde\" and for \"The Godfather.\" Could you give me an example of the type of problem you were brought in to solve on...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1988 interview with screenwriter and director Robert Towne, who died last week at age 89. His screenplays include \"Chinatown,\" \"Shampoo, \"The Last Detail\" "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-12", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering 'Chinatown' screenwriter Robert Towne", "question_index": 10, "text": "...One of those two screenplays? Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-12", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering 'Chinatown' screenwriter Robert Towne", "question_index": 11, "text": "Were there directors who let you - on the set, let you sit in before you started directing yourself? And I ask this knowing that a lot of times, screenwriters aren't really welcomed on the screen because the director wants to be able to make choices himself or herself without the screenwriter standing over their shoulder and making their own suggestions.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Michael Corleone) What's the matter? What's bothering you? I'll handle it. I told you I can handle it. I'll handle it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-12", "guest": "Jack Nicholson", "title": "Remembering 'Chinatown' screenwriter Robert Towne", "question_index": 12, "text": "Is that how you learned how to direct by watching?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have always been - maybe it's because I started so much of my work by doing rewrites that I didn't have the kind of threatening cache of the originator of a piece of material, which I think is alway"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-15", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "Why the weapon of choice matters in the Trump assassination attempt", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We've postponed our interview with former Hollywood stunt man and director of the new film \"The Fall Guy\" so that we can address what's on everybody's mind right now - the attempted assassination of former President Trump and the other victims of the shooter. Two were seriously injured. One was killed. The shooter used an AR-15, an assault weapon that has become the preferred weapon of mass shooters. My guest, Todd Frankel, wrote about how the civilian rifle was adapted from the military combat automatic rifle, the M-6, and how with the help of clever marketing and lobbying, the AR-15 has become a huge moneymaker for the gun industry, and icon of gun culture, a favored weapon for perpetrators of mass shootings, and a flash point in the debate about guns in America. Frankel was the lead reporter on the main story of a Washington Post investigation into the history of the AR-15. The series won a Pulitzer Prize this year for national reporting. Frankel is an enterprise reporter on the financial desk of the Post. We're going to hear the interview we recorded this morning. Then we'll dive deeper into the gun's history and current place in gun culture and listen back to the interview we recorded last year when the AR-15 series was published. Todd Frankel, welcome back to FRESH AIR. What was your reaction when we heard the shooter used an AR-15?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-15", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "Why the weapon of choice matters in the Trump assassination attempt", "question_index": 1, "text": "Why is that the first question?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not surprised. I think, every time there's a shooting, especially one that's so high profile or a mass shooting - you know, the first question that I have - actually a lot of gunmakers always have - i"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-15", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "Why the weapon of choice matters in the Trump assassination attempt", "question_index": 2, "text": "The AR-15 is banned in several states, including Washington, California, New York, Connecticut, New Jersey, Massachusetts, Maryland, Illinois, Delaware, and some chains like Walmart and Dick's Sporting Goods no longer sell it. What impact has that had on that rifle?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's because it's become such a popular weapon for use - popular, period, and then also popular for use in these sort of horrific mass events. You know, it's everywhere. And you know, one in 20 gun ow"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-15", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "Why the weapon of choice matters in the Trump assassination attempt", "question_index": 3, "text": "And in jeopardy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And some ways, it's sort of raised the profile of the rifle because it's made it sort of a taboo weapon that some places don't want you to have. And it hasn't had any effect on sales, really, because "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-15", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "Why the weapon of choice matters in the Trump assassination attempt", "question_index": 4, "text": "Milwaukee, Wis., the site of the Republican Convention - Wisconsin is an open-carry state. Does that include assault weapons?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, definitely in jeopardy."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-15", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "Why the weapon of choice matters in the Trump assassination attempt", "question_index": 5, "text": "The AR-15 has become kind of a symbol for people on the right. How is it used as a symbol?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It does. And it makes it sort of a challenge for law enforcement, these open-carry laws. You know, famously, I think, a couple of years ago, there was that young kid, Kyle Rittenhouse who was open car"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-15", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "Why the weapon of choice matters in the Trump assassination attempt", "question_index": 6, "text": "Do you think that the AR-15 as a symbol for people on the right might change after this assassination attempt with an AR-15?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's become, you know, sort of the stand in for the musket, the revolutionary war musket. You know, it's a symbol of freedom. It's a symbol of gun rights. Without a doubt, there were folks at that Tru"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-15", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "Why the weapon of choice matters in the Trump assassination attempt", "question_index": 7, "text": "What have Biden and Trump said about AR-15s and assault weapons in general?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I don't think so because I don't think that they assigned the weapon the responsibility in this. This is a bad guy who did this shooting. This wasn't the weapon itself. And so I don't expect that "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-15", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "Why the weapon of choice matters in the Trump assassination attempt", "question_index": 8, "text": "The leaders of the Republican National Convention have asked for more security at the convention. And at the same time, Republicans have opposed the assault weapons ban and the weapon that was used in the assassination attempt is an assault weapon. And I wonder what your thoughts are about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Biden has been a longtime opponent of assault weapons, of AR-15s. He would love to see a nationwide assault weapons ban. He's said this many times publicly. He hasn't been shy about it. Even as some D"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-15", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "Why the weapon of choice matters in the Trump assassination attempt", "question_index": 9, "text": "What do you think might be next in terms of an assault weapons ban?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it's one of those great ironies that both sides see differently. You know, on the right, you know, they talk about these gun-free zones as being the most dangerous places in the country, right"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-15", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "Why the weapon of choice matters in the Trump assassination attempt", "question_index": 10, "text": "Todd Frankel, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think most people expect that there's any real chance at it. Mostly because of the current composition of the Supreme Court, which has this sort of 6-3 conservative-liberal split, and has show"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-15", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "Why the weapon of choice matters in the Trump assassination attempt", "question_index": 11, "text": "Todd Frankel was the lead reporter on the main story of a Washington Post series on the history of the AR-15. The series won a Pulitzer Prize for national reporting this year, and the Post has just reposted that AR-15 series. After we take a short break, we'll take a deeper dive into the history of the AR-15 and its current place in gun culture and listen back to the interview we recorded last year when the series was published. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-15", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "Why the weapon of choice matters in the Trump assassination attempt", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're talking about the assault weapon that was used in the attempted assassination of former President Trump. Now let's listen back to my interview recorded last year with Todd Frankel, the lead reporter on a Washington Post series on the history of the AR-15 and its current place in gun culture. The series won a Pulitzer Prize for national reporting this year. It's been reposted on the Washington Post website.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-15", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "Why the weapon of choice matters in the Trump assassination attempt", "question_index": 13, "text": "Let's start with, if you could list some of the mass shootings that the AR-15 was used as the weapon.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-15", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "Why the weapon of choice matters in the Trump assassination attempt", "question_index": 14, "text": "Why do mass shooters often choose an AR-15?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean, any mass shooting that has made the news that we've all sort of horrified by - you know, the Uvalde shooting down in Texas last year - that involved an AR-15-style weapon. Newtown, most "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-15", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "Why the weapon of choice matters in the Trump assassination attempt", "question_index": 15, "text": "It's easier to keep steady, you know, to keep steady aim with minimum recoil. Why is that an important feature of the gun?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, you know, it's something that some of the mass shooters even explicitly spell out - like in their manifestos they leave behind, like the shooter in the Buffalo mass shooting. I mean, he specific"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-15", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "Why the weapon of choice matters in the Trump assassination attempt", "question_index": 16, "text": "It's got a lot of speed. I learned this from The Washington Post. The speed of the bullet, the bullet would cross six football fields in 1 second. That's - I can't even fathom that, that a bullet can go that quickly. So how does the speed of the bullet affect the lethality of the bullet once it enters the body?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that was one of the innovations and one of the things that made it so appealing to the military. At first was it has this gas impingement system, which technically basically means that it redire"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-15", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "Why the weapon of choice matters in the Trump assassination attempt", "question_index": 17, "text": "So the AR-15 is a semiautomatic version of the combat rifle, the M-16, which was an automatic weapon. The M-16 was standard issue rifle in Vietnam. A Pentagon report described the M-16 as an outstanding weapon with phenomenal lethality. So what's the difference between the M-16, which was first used in combat in Vietnam, and the AR-15, which is being marketed to civilians?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, the AR-15 actually shoots a fairly small bullet. It's known as a 223 or a 556 - you know, these technical details. But it's a fairly small bullet, but it has a lot of powder behind it, gunpowder"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-15", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "Why the weapon of choice matters in the Trump assassination attempt", "question_index": 18, "text": "So how did a weapon that was designed for combat become slightly redesigned for civilians? Like, was it somebody's idea? Can you pinpoint the person who decided, let's take this combat weapon and find a way to mass market it to civilians?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They're very similar. The biggest difference is that the M-16, the military's rifle, is capable of automatic fire, which means if you pull and hold down the trigger, it'll keep firing bullets, whereas"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-15", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "Why the weapon of choice matters in the Trump assassination attempt", "question_index": 19, "text": "Was that controversial within the gun industry?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, the gun industry itself had huge doubts about this gun. They didn't really - they didn't welcome it at its trade shows. You know, we spoke to AR-15 manufacturers who talked about the hostili"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-15", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "Why the weapon of choice matters in the Trump assassination attempt", "question_index": 20, "text": "So, you know, the series mentions a man named Harry Falber, who ended up being the head of licensing at Smith and Wesson. And he came from the ad world. He had been an ad man in big companies. And when he came to Smith and Wesson, he wanted to test out what kind of advertising seemed to work best for Smith and Wesson. So he took out two ads in Guns and Ammo, one kind of more traditional gun ad, and one a gun ad for the AR-15, and basically tried to figure out which consumers responded better to. Can you describe those ads?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was. Again, there was this hostility towards the weapon itself, this sort of military gun - you know, what ordinary gun owners need with this? But the gun industry itself was suffering several year"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-15", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "Why the weapon of choice matters in the Trump assassination attempt", "question_index": 21, "text": "So two things in that version of the ad - the chosen one is kind of, like, making the gun into this heroic figure. Also by advertising, like, you could be, like, this SWAT team officer who's seeing the action. You could have the same kind of thing, just as a civilian, not having to join the police even.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean, Harry was a traditional - he describes himself as like from the \"Mad Men\" era of advertising. He'd worked for Hallmark, Volvo. He'd worked on these very mainstream brand campaigns. And s"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-15", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "Why the weapon of choice matters in the Trump assassination attempt", "question_index": 22, "text": "And one of the reasons I think why he spoke out is in 2012, after he decided to leave Smith and Wesson, because he didn't like the idea of these assault weapons - just a couple of months later was the Sandy Hook massacre in the elementary school, and he lived just like 20 miles away from Sandy Hook.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, no, and that was that sort of darker edge of marketing that at the time was still sort of sort of unwelcomed or sort of challenged in the industry, but now that's pretty much just how guns are a"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-15", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "Why the weapon of choice matters in the Trump assassination attempt", "question_index": 23, "text": "We're listening back to the interview I recorded last year with Todd Frankel, the lead reporter on the main story of the Washington Post series on the history of the AR-15. That's the weapon that was used by the shooter who attempted to assassinate Donald Trump. The series won to Pulitzer Prize for national reporting this year. The Post has reposted the series on its website. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he was horrified by that, and his wife worked in education, and I think he was just horrified by the idea that he had played any role in popularizing that gun."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-15", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "Why the weapon of choice matters in the Trump assassination attempt", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're talking about the assault weapon that was used in the assassination attempt against former President Trump, the AR-15. It's become the weapon of choice for mass shooters. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with Todd Frankel, the lead reporter on the main story of a Washington Post series on the history of the AR-15. The series one of Pulitzer Prize for National Reporting this year. Our interview was recorded when the series was first published. The Post has reposted the story on its website.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he was horrified by that, and his wife worked in education, and I think he was just horrified by the idea that he had played any role in popularizing that gun."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-15", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "Why the weapon of choice matters in the Trump assassination attempt", "question_index": 25, "text": "I was surprised to read that after mass shootings, the sales of the AR-15 go up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he was horrified by that, and his wife worked in education, and I think he was just horrified by the idea that he had played any role in popularizing that gun."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-15", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "Why the weapon of choice matters in the Trump assassination attempt", "question_index": 26, "text": "Like, let's buy an assault weapon before it's too late, before it's banned.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And that's because it's the center of the gun conversation, the gun control conversation, where folks say, well, what are we going to do about - how are we going to address these mass shootings?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-15", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "Why the weapon of choice matters in the Trump assassination attempt", "question_index": 27, "text": "You know, we talked a little bit about the ad campaigns for the AR-15. There was also some pretty clever marketing behind them, and one of the facets of that is working with video game manufacturers. So what was that relationship like? How did gun manufacturers get their guns into video games as a way of making people want those guns?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Yeah, it's going to be taken. You know, they're coming for your assault weapons, your AR-15. And come and take it - you know, that sort of attitude is on there, too. And so yeah, sales react to"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-15", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "Why the weapon of choice matters in the Trump assassination attempt", "question_index": 28, "text": "Despite the success of sales with the AR-15, there were still people within the gun industry, within the gun world, who objected to it. But there was a lot of pressure to keep those people quiet or to kind of push them out. And one example that is written about in The Washington Post series is Jim Zumbo. Tell us about him and the story of what happened when he objected to the AR-15.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, there's a very popular video game franchise called Call Of Duty, which is sort of a shooting game, right? And so gun manufacturers, you know, would work with these video game manufacture"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-15", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "Why the weapon of choice matters in the Trump assassination attempt", "question_index": 29, "text": "Have you been to a lot of gun shows over the years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Jim Zumbo was a well-known personality in the gun world. And, you know, he had a TV show. He had a column in gun magazines. He was just a well-known guy. And this was in the early 2000s - or late 2000"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-15", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "Why the weapon of choice matters in the Trump assassination attempt", "question_index": 30, "text": "And how have the displays for AR-15s changed in that period?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-15", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "Why the weapon of choice matters in the Trump assassination attempt", "question_index": 31, "text": "What about gun culture?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's remarkable. And it's sort of been gradual, but then only when you look at it, you know, over several years that you sort of realize, oh, it wasn't always this way. And I think even folks who are "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-15", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "Why the weapon of choice matters in the Trump assassination attempt", "question_index": 32, "text": "We're listening back to the interview I recorded last year with Todd Frankel, the lead reporter on the main story of a Washington Post series on the history of the AR-15, the weapon that was used in the assassination attempt against Donald Trump. The series won a Pulitzer Prize this year for national reporting. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And gun culture, yeah. I mean, they're sort of intertwined. The gun industry is not a huge industry, but - so they are very closely tied to the culture itself. And, you know, they are making directly "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-15", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "Why the weapon of choice matters in the Trump assassination attempt", "question_index": 33, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're talking about the AR-15, the weapon that was used in the attempted assassination of former President Trump. Let's get back to the interview I recorded last year with Todd Frankel, the lead reporter on the main story of a Washington Post series on the history of the AR-15. The series won a Pulitzer Prize this year for national reporting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And gun culture, yeah. I mean, they're sort of intertwined. The gun industry is not a huge industry, but - so they are very closely tied to the culture itself. And, you know, they are making directly "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-15", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "Why the weapon of choice matters in the Trump assassination attempt", "question_index": 34, "text": "So the Sandy Hook massacre in Newtown, Conn., the massacre in the elementary school back in 2012, how did that focus attention on the AR-15, which was the weapon that was used in that assault? One hundred fifty-four rounds were fired. Twenty children were killed. Six school employees were killed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And gun culture, yeah. I mean, they're sort of intertwined. The gun industry is not a huge industry, but - so they are very closely tied to the culture itself. And, you know, they are making directly "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-15", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "Why the weapon of choice matters in the Trump assassination attempt", "question_index": 35, "text": "There were some large stores, including some chains, that stopped carrying AR-15s, stopped selling them, after Sandy Hook. And the sales increased. There's still a lot of disillusionment about the weapon. How did the NRA and the gun industry push back against that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that was a pivotal moment, right? You know, I think, for a lot of Americans, it's probably the first time they've really been introduced to this weapon. The wounds in there were devastating, kid"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-15", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "Why the weapon of choice matters in the Trump assassination attempt", "question_index": 36, "text": "How did gun rights become a top issue for Republicans with often a focus on AR-15s?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, Dick's Sporting Goods sort of famously decided to stop selling the AR-15, although they would backtrack because they would sell it at a subsidiary store called Field and Stream for a little "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-15", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "Why the weapon of choice matters in the Trump assassination attempt", "question_index": 37, "text": "So The Washington Post series describes the AR-15 as having become a political symbol in campaigns. How has it been used that way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Especially after the Newtown shooting and you had this sort of standoff between President Obama and the NRA, it was, again, that sort of - are you with us or against us? - sort of focus. And it became"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-15", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "Why the weapon of choice matters in the Trump assassination attempt", "question_index": 38, "text": "I want you to tell the story of C.J. Grisham and his use of the AR-15 in a political and an identity way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, just think about those - you know, we see this pop up in the news, those holiday cards from almost - well, certainly only Republican officials of their whole family holding an AR-15, you know, e"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-15", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "Why the weapon of choice matters in the Trump assassination attempt", "question_index": 39, "text": "So Grisham's the one who gets convicted?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "C.J. Grisham was out for a walk with his son in rural Texas. And this is in 2013. And he has an AR-15 with him. And he's just walking down the side of this, like, dirt road, gravel road. And then he's"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-15", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "Why the weapon of choice matters in the Trump assassination attempt", "question_index": 40, "text": "The Second Amendment, as interpreted by gun activists and the gun manufacturers, the gun lobby - the Second Amendment is seen as upholding your right to carry any kind of gun. But no matter how you interpret the Second Amendment, it doesn't literally say anything about ammunition, about the bullets. There's been proposals to limit high-capacity magazines because that would limit the number of rounds somebody could fire off without having to reload and if they had to reload, might give an opportunity for somebody to tackle the mass shooter.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And so he is just sort of outraged by the way he was treated. I mean, he's not doing anything. He's just carrying this gun. We have to imagine, this is a decade ago, before open carry and these "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-15", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "Why the weapon of choice matters in the Trump assassination attempt", "question_index": 41, "text": "Well, Todd Frankel, thank you so much for talking with us. Thank you for your reporting for the series in The Washington Post.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's a fascinating topic because the idea of limiting the number of bullets someone can hold in a single magazine, it sounds sort of, maybe, what's the point? But there's a lot of research t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-15", "guest": "Todd Frankel", "title": "Why the weapon of choice matters in the Trump assassination attempt", "question_index": 42, "text": "Todd Frankel was the lead reporter on the main story of a Washington Post series on the history of the AR-15. The series won a Pulitzer Prize for national reporting this year. The Post has reposted the series on its website. Our interview was recorded last year when the series was first published. After we take a short break, Ken Tucker continues his series on great albums that were recorded 50 years ago and revisits a Stevie Wonder album. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you, Terry."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Shelley Duvall", "title": "Remembering actor and producer Shelley Duvall", "question_index": 0, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It was amazing to me, too. I mean, boy, they're trusting Olive Oyl as a producer?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Shelley Duvall", "title": "Remembering actor and producer Shelley Duvall", "question_index": 1, "text": "You haven't been making movies lately. Do you think that most casting directors assume that you're not available? And would that assumption be accurate?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thought, boy, that's risky. And I'd never produced anything before, but I did have contacts with a lot of celebrities, luckily. And that was as a result of my acting career."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Shelley Duvall", "title": "Remembering actor and producer Shelley Duvall", "question_index": 2, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think so, too. But you can put the word out right here and right now, I tell you, because I would love to. I mean, gosh, I go to the movie theater all the time, and I see all these good roles."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Shelley Duvall", "title": "Remembering actor and producer Shelley Duvall", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But, you know, no matter how good somebody was in the role. But being a producer, I guess you get a view of the bigger picture. And I love the fact that I can produce and still sleep in my own bed in "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Shelley Duvall", "title": "Remembering actor and producer Shelley Duvall", "question_index": 4, "text": "Could you tell us...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because I grew up in Texas, and I have this great desire to have - put down roots, you know?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Shelley Duvall", "title": "Remembering actor and producer Shelley Duvall", "question_index": 5, "text": "70 birds?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I have a lot of animals. I have 70 birds and 11 dogs and two cats and several lizards. And I feel..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Shelley Duvall", "title": "Remembering actor and producer Shelley Duvall", "question_index": 6, "text": "I have to stop you here. Do your parrots all say things? Do they all say different things?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep, 70 - 7, 0 - and many of them are parrots. But listen, everything in my life - I draw from everything in my life. So I've, for instance, written a feature story about some of my birds, some of my "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Shelley Duvall", "title": "Remembering actor and producer Shelley Duvall", "question_index": 7, "text": "What do they say?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes, absolutely. My parrots talk all the time. It's very noisy at my house."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Shelley Duvall", "title": "Remembering actor and producer Shelley Duvall", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Particularly in the morning and in the evening. All right. I have a parrot named Humpty, who's an Amazon - yellow-naped Amazon. And he is hilarious. He's like the Robin Williams of parrots. I mean, he"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Shelley Duvall", "title": "Remembering actor and producer Shelley Duvall", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And you get there and he goes, ah, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, and, you know, being the acrobat that he is, flips himself back upright and, you know, no problem at all. It was no emergency, but he just wanted"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Shelley Duvall", "title": "Remembering actor and producer Shelley Duvall", "question_index": 10, "text": "What a house you must have.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And whistling things like the beginning of \"Somewhere Over The Rainbow.\" So they can whistle that one very good. They don't know the lyrics yet. But some songs they sing the lyrics, and some they d"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Shelley Duvall", "title": "Remembering actor and producer Shelley Duvall", "question_index": 11, "text": "Yeah. Let me change the subject and get into how you first started to act, which wasn't by design", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've go to write some articles for Bird Talk Magazine one of these days."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Shelley Duvall", "title": "Remembering actor and producer Shelley Duvall", "question_index": 12, "text": ". Would you tell the story of how you were first cast in your first movie, \"Brewster McCloud,\" directed by Robert Altman.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've go to write some articles for Bird Talk Magazine one of these days."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Shelley Duvall", "title": "Remembering actor and producer Shelley Duvall", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Well, it all started with art, I guess. And my boyfriend at the time - I was 20 years old. I had just dropped out of junior college. I decided to take a six-month rest from my science endeavors "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Shelley Duvall", "title": "Remembering actor and producer Shelley Duvall", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I started packing up. I was scared to death. I thought, oh, my gosh, my mother's going to kill me. My father is going to kill me. I'm really scared. So I started packing up and I was rushing toward"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Shelley Duvall", "title": "Remembering actor and producer Shelley Duvall", "question_index": 15, "text": "So when you started acting, was this something that you secretly always wanted to do but never thought that you could? Or was it something that you couldn't care less about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I figure if they can get past my dad, they must be legitimate."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Shelley Duvall", "title": "Remembering actor and producer Shelley Duvall", "question_index": 16, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I looked at movies..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Shelley Duvall", "title": "Remembering actor and producer Shelley Duvall", "question_index": 17, "text": "The third film that you mentioned was \"Thieves Like Us,\" right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I looked at movies as paintings, you know? They were beautiful, and I didn't think I was an artist. I mean, I didn't know. Actually, I didn't think this was a career until after I had finished my thir"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Shelley Duvall", "title": "Remembering actor and producer Shelley Duvall", "question_index": 18, "text": "One of your best-known movies, \"The Shining,\" was directed by Stanley Kubrick who, I think, in some ways, is probably opposite in style to Robert Altman in the sense that every shot is really well planned in advance and...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Shelley Duvall speaking to Terry Gross in 1992 - more after a break. This is FRESH AIR. ***** This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1992 interview with actress and producer Shelley Duvall. She "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Shelley Duvall", "title": "Remembering actor and producer Shelley Duvall", "question_index": 19, "text": "...You know, carefully storyboarded. Everything's, like, very meticulously planned. With Altman, I know there's a lot of spontaneity and improvisation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Shelley Duvall", "title": "Remembering actor and producer Shelley Duvall", "question_index": 20, "text": "And with Kubrick?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, he - Robert Altman's famous for his wonderful first takes. You know, many, many, many shots in his films are first takes and one-and-only takes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Shelley Duvall", "title": "Remembering actor and producer Shelley Duvall", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And with Kubrick, I don't think anything's printed before the 35th take."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Shelley Duvall", "title": "Remembering actor and producer Shelley Duvall", "question_index": 22, "text": "What did you do to get the tears flowing? I mean, it's one thing to once a night onstage...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that's after about 50 videotaped rehearsals with playback. So it was a very, very difficult experience for me to change over to that style. Plus the nature of the role was that I had to be very up"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Shelley Duvall", "title": "Remembering actor and producer Shelley Duvall", "question_index": 23, "text": "...Have to cry or - yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Shelley Duvall", "title": "Remembering actor and producer Shelley Duvall", "question_index": 24, "text": "The knife?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I'm sorry. I have a favorite classical piece of music that I listen to to cry, and it's a beautiful, beautiful piece by Sir Thomas Tallis. It's called \"The Lark Ascending.\" And he's an English com"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Shelley Duvall", "title": "Remembering actor and producer Shelley Duvall", "question_index": 25, "text": "Oh, yeah. I love that scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Bat. Well, with a base - well, I hit him - it culminates in me hitting him with a baseball bat. It's the grand room with a grand piano in it and - where all Jack - all work and no play makes Jack a"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Shelley Duvall", "title": "Remembering actor and producer Shelley Duvall", "question_index": 26, "text": "Now, I believe that you turned down Robert Altman once for a wedding that - you turned down a role in the film.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Which was on the call sheet for three weeks. We shot that for three weeks. It was all done with a steady cam, all in one shot. And that was a very, very difficult time. But we both got bronchitis f"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Ruth Westheimer", "title": "Remembering famed sex therapist Ruth Westheimer, aka 'Dr. Ruth'", "question_index": 0, "text": "I'd like to hear a little bit more about your family. After your mother put you on the train to Switzerland to get out of Nazi Germany, did she and your grandmother try to flee also?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was an only child. At the age of 10, my mother and grandmother, because my father had already been taken by the Nazis to a labor camp, put me on a train to Switzerland. And I thought this would be, "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Ruth Westheimer", "title": "Remembering famed sex therapist Ruth Westheimer, aka 'Dr. Ruth'", "question_index": 1, "text": "You write that in the orphanage in Switzerland, that the message was drummed into all of you never complain - you're lucky to be alive. Do you think that was a healthy attitude to have?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was too late already. It's a very good question, Terry. I was told I did not want to leave. I was an only child, rather spoiled - 13 dolls - and I did not want to leave. I was told that if I am not"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Ruth Westheimer", "title": "Remembering famed sex therapist Ruth Westheimer, aka 'Dr. Ruth'", "question_index": 2, "text": "What's the problem?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Today, from my vantage point of being an educator, today, I would question that very much. However, my philosophy of life came from my early socialization, that was such a good one. The first 10 years"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Ruth Westheimer", "title": "Remembering famed sex therapist Ruth Westheimer, aka 'Dr. Ruth'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Now, your mother was actually pregnant with you before she and your father married.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The problem is that the educators were not educators. The people who were placed in charge of us were themselves refugees, themselves sent out, pushed out of Nazi Germany, with all the anxieties, with"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Ruth Westheimer", "title": "Remembering famed sex therapist Ruth Westheimer, aka 'Dr. Ruth'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Was that considered shameful?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Ruth Westheimer", "title": "Remembering famed sex therapist Ruth Westheimer, aka 'Dr. Ruth'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Did they consider that shameful?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terrible."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Ruth Westheimer", "title": "Remembering famed sex therapist Ruth Westheimer, aka 'Dr. Ruth'", "question_index": 6, "text": "What?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. But you know what?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Ruth Westheimer", "title": "Remembering famed sex therapist Ruth Westheimer, aka 'Dr. Ruth'", "question_index": 7, "text": "I was going to bring that up in a second", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's why I wrote it in my autobiography. Somebody who read the draft said, why are you writing that your mother was pregnant with you then your father married her, that you were pregnant with your d"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Ruth Westheimer", "title": "Remembering famed sex therapist Ruth Westheimer, aka 'Dr. Ruth'", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's why I wrote it in my autobiography. Somebody who read the draft said, why are you writing that your mother was pregnant with you then your father married her, that you were pregnant with your d"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Ruth Westheimer", "title": "Remembering famed sex therapist Ruth Westheimer, aka 'Dr. Ruth'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Let me ask you how you found out about your mother being pregnant before marriage. Did she tell you that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know. I know you already, Terry, so let me just tell you. And my answer to Ben Yagoda, my co-author now and my co-author on the autography, was I'm not a saint. I want to show that what I talk about"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Ruth Westheimer", "title": "Remembering famed sex therapist Ruth Westheimer, aka 'Dr. Ruth'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Did this seem really out of character to you, when you found out that your mother had actually had sexual relations with your father before marriage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, she never would have told me ever, ever. And I was 10 years old. I once looked at some documents after the war, many years later, when I started to do my master thesis. And lo and behold, I saw th"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Ruth Westheimer", "title": "Remembering famed sex therapist Ruth Westheimer, aka 'Dr. Ruth'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Right. Your mother worked as the house cleaner in your father's house.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Ruth Westheimer", "title": "Remembering famed sex therapist Ruth Westheimer, aka 'Dr. Ruth'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The housemaid. Absolutely."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Ruth Westheimer", "title": "Remembering famed sex therapist Ruth Westheimer, aka 'Dr. Ruth'", "question_index": 13, "text": "I could see the potential...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Ruth Westheimer", "title": "Remembering famed sex therapist Ruth Westheimer, aka 'Dr. Ruth'", "question_index": 14, "text": "...For scandal here.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Interesting. And..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Ruth Westheimer", "title": "Remembering famed sex therapist Ruth Westheimer, aka 'Dr. Ruth'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Which you used, actually, when you first moved to America.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then I became a housemaid in Switzerland. I have an official diploma of a housemaid."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Ruth Westheimer", "title": "Remembering famed sex therapist Ruth Westheimer, aka 'Dr. Ruth'", "question_index": 16, "text": "I've heard that before", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A dollar an hour, and I supported my little girl. But now, Terry, right away, we have to say - I am married now for 35 years with the same man, and I have two children, and Terry, I have two grandchil"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Ruth Westheimer", "title": "Remembering famed sex therapist Ruth Westheimer, aka 'Dr. Ruth'", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A dollar an hour, and I supported my little girl. But now, Terry, right away, we have to say - I am married now for 35 years with the same man, and I have two children, and Terry, I have two grandchil"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Ruth Westheimer", "title": "Remembering famed sex therapist Ruth Westheimer, aka 'Dr. Ruth'", "question_index": 18, "text": "People are always asking, why is it that people who aren't married - who aren't ready to have children would risk having sexual relations without using birth control? I want to find out why you did that. You were pregnant before you were married. You hadn't intended on becoming pregnant. I assume you knew about birth control.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nobody, Terry - a 6-year-old grandson and a 3-months-old granddaughter. And I have to say something to you, seriously speaking. When I look at these grandchildren - and I see them every single week - "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Ruth Westheimer", "title": "Remembering famed sex therapist Ruth Westheimer, aka 'Dr. Ruth'", "question_index": 19, "text": "But...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's not true."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Ruth Westheimer", "title": "Remembering famed sex therapist Ruth Westheimer, aka 'Dr. Ruth'", "question_index": 20, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was a little stupid by..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Ruth Westheimer", "title": "Remembering famed sex therapist Ruth Westheimer, aka 'Dr. Ruth'", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wanted that pregnancy."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Ruth Westheimer", "title": "Remembering famed sex therapist Ruth Westheimer, aka 'Dr. Ruth'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Can I ask you how you learned the facts of life...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I - there is no question that I already knew this man is going to be the father of my daughter. I'm going to marry him. I did not know that once she was a year old, we would separate. That, I did n"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Ruth Westheimer", "title": "Remembering famed sex therapist Ruth Westheimer, aka 'Dr. Ruth'", "question_index": 23, "text": "...Growing up in a home for children during World War II in Switzerland?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Ruth Westheimer", "title": "Remembering famed sex therapist Ruth Westheimer, aka 'Dr. Ruth'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Were you shocked? Was it upsetting to you to find that out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Ruth Westheimer", "title": "Remembering famed sex therapist Ruth Westheimer, aka 'Dr. Ruth'", "question_index": 25, "text": "From what you had learned about sexuality when you were young, what were your expectations? I mean, did you think that it was going to be something that was, like, extraordinary, something that was going to be frightening?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I didn't know it all, but that's what I thought, I knew it all."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-19", "guest": "Ruth Westheimer", "title": "Remembering famed sex therapist Ruth Westheimer, aka 'Dr. Ruth'", "question_index": 26, "text": "Well, Dr. Ruth, I want to thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I fortunately already in Switzerland had that boyfriend, and we discovered wonderfully early in life about - not about sexual intercourse, but about kissing and hugging and necking and touching. So I "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-25", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Israel and Hezbollah have escalated attacks on each other. How likely is war?", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. As the war between Israel and Hamas continues, the conflict between Israel and Hezbollah is escalating. Hamas is based in Gaza, Hezbollah in Lebanon - both groups want to create an Islamist state, both groups are backed by Iran and both want to eliminate Israel. My guest Dexter Filkins is a staff writer at the New Yorker. Earlier this summer, he went on a reporting trip to the south of Lebanon, which has largely been taken over by Hezbollah fighters. It's the area targeted by Israeli rockets, and it's the most dangerous part of Lebanon. Filkins is used to danger. He covered the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan for the New York Times and wrote the book \"The Forever War.\" In Lebanon, he spoke with a Hezbollah commander and to its deputy secretary general. He also talked with a Maronite Christian priest, whose village was not targeted by Israelis, but it was surrounded by villages that were in ruins. Filkins crossed over the border into Israel and visited a kibbutz near the border, which had largely been abandoned because of the danger from Hezbollah rockets. His article on this week's New Yorker is titled \"Will Hezbollah And Israel Go To War?\" He says if they do, it will be a war that could draw in Iran and the U.S. We recorded our interview yesterday morning before Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu spoke to Congress. Dexter Filkins, welcome back to FRESH AIR. I'm always glad to see you safe", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-25", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Israel and Hezbollah have escalated attacks on each other. How likely is war?", "question_index": 1, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-25", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Israel and Hezbollah have escalated attacks on each other. How likely is war?", "question_index": 2, "text": "...When you return from a conflict zone. So before we talk about your reporting trip, which I'm really anxious to get to. I just want to clarify some of the differences between Hezbollah and Hamas - what they have in common, what they're not. Because I think so many people really don't know the difference, and we're going to be largely talking about Hezbollah. So I mean, Hezbollah and Israel have a long history of conflict. Can you describe some of the differences and similarities between Hezbollah in Lebanon and Hamas in Gaza?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, thank you, thank you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-25", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Israel and Hezbollah have escalated attacks on each other. How likely is war?", "question_index": 3, "text": "Hezbollah started attacking Israel in sympathy with Hamas. Israel and Hezbollah have a long history of conflict, armed conflict. And you write that Hezbollah now has at least 150,000 missiles and rockets, many of them capable of hitting targets across Israel. So how much of a threat do you think Hezbollah poses to Israel right now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they're pretty different. Using Israel as a kind of centerpiece on their southern border is Hamas. They're Sunni Muslim. That's an important distinction. They're backed by Iran. They want an Isl"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-25", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Israel and Hezbollah have escalated attacks on each other. How likely is war?", "question_index": 4, "text": "Early in the war with Hamas, between Israel and Hamas, the experts I was hearing were basically saying, you know, no one wants this to be a regional war and that Hezbollah doesn't really want to go to war with Israel - you know, that their conflict has been contained. But that seems to be changing. Is that right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a way, way bigger threat than Hamas. And that's the kind of irony here. You know, we've all been focused on the war in Hamas. For Israel, Hamas is the - they're the junior varsity. I mean, they'r"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-25", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Israel and Hezbollah have escalated attacks on each other. How likely is war?", "question_index": 5, "text": "So why did you go to Lebanon's southern border? It is the most dangerous part of Lebanon. It's where Israel has been firing, you know, missiles, rockets. What exactly is Israel firing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. That's right. It's a strange thing. On each side, Israel and Hezbollah - they don't want a wider war. And they're all happy to tell you that. We don't want a big war. But they both know "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-25", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Israel and Hezbollah have escalated attacks on each other. How likely is war?", "question_index": 6, "text": "Would you describe the landscape that you found?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'll give you a great illustration. I drove into south Lebanon to meet a Hezbollah commander. And practically the moment I walked into his house, there were these two big concussions - windows r"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-25", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Israel and Hezbollah have escalated attacks on each other. How likely is war?", "question_index": 7, "text": "Hezbollah has accused Israel of using white phosphorus. Israel has denied it. Did you see any evidence of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, well, I mean, first of all, Lebanon is just stunningly beautiful. It's a Mediterranean country. It's beautiful sea coasts and cliffs and mountains in the background. But as you drove - I drove o"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-25", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Israel and Hezbollah have escalated attacks on each other. How likely is war?", "question_index": 8, "text": "One of the places that you visited was a Maronite Christian neighborhood that was untouched because it's not a Hezbollah neighborhood. It's a Christian neighborhood, so it's been spared by Israelis. You spoke to a priest there who wanted to remain anonymous for obvious reasons, so you call him Father Najib. What were his fears?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. I did. I think they are using it. I looked out on the border and along the Israeli-Lebanese border, there's a lot of farm land on the Lebanese side. And so the Hezbollah fighters use the farmla"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-25", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Israel and Hezbollah have escalated attacks on each other. How likely is war?", "question_index": 9, "text": "It sounds like Hezbollah fighters have tried to move into this Christian village, but Father Najib has kind of kept them out. What has he done to try to prevent Hezbollah from taking over this Christian village?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was so interesting going in this village, which was called Rmaich. It's right on the Israeli border in the - sort of the very, very southern tip of Lebanon. And southern Lebanon is mostly Shia, Isl"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-25", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Israel and Hezbollah have escalated attacks on each other. How likely is war?", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Dexter Filkins, a staff writer for The New Yorker. His article in this week's New Yorker is titled \"Will Hezbollah And Israel Go To War?\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's just - it's so weird 'cause, you know, like, if you're Lebanese, everybody knows each other. So - but these - you know, there's these kind of fault lines, and so it's very strange. And so, "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-25", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Israel and Hezbollah have escalated attacks on each other. How likely is war?", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Dexter Filkins, a staff writer for The New Yorker. His new article is titled \"Will Hezbollah And Israel Go To War?\" It's based on his reporting trip earlier this summer to the south of Lebanon, which has largely been taken over by Hezbollah fighters. He also crossed over the border to Israel. So, you know, you've said that you couldn't go to a Hezbollah village for obvious reasons. That would be very dangerous. But in Beirut, you were able to speak with Naim Qassem, who is the deputy secretary general of Hezbollah, the No. 2 in Hezbollah. He's a former chemistry teacher. And he wrote...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's just - it's so weird 'cause, you know, like, if you're Lebanese, everybody knows each other. So - but these - you know, there's these kind of fault lines, and so it's very strange. And so, "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-25", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Israel and Hezbollah have escalated attacks on each other. How likely is war?", "question_index": 12, "text": "...The movement's official account of its history, a book called \"Hezbollah: The Story From Within.\" In that book, it says that one of the goals is imposing an Iranian-style Islamic republic in Lebanon and destroying the state of Israel. What did you want to talk with him about? Well, first of all, how did you get to talk with him? Why would he agree to talk with you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-25", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Israel and Hezbollah have escalated attacks on each other. How likely is war?", "question_index": 13, "text": "What did he tell you Hezbollah's goals were in this conflict?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they're - you know, Hezbollah's, like, very - they have a communications office and, like, a public relations department. And so they're very savvy, and they want to get the word out, and they w"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-25", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Israel and Hezbollah have escalated attacks on each other. How likely is war?", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, in part, one of the things that they've accomplished is displacing thousands of Israelis who live near the border of Lebanon.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he - it's interesting. He wanted me to know that Hezbollah does not want a big war with Israel, and he's very clear about that. He's like, we don't want this to escalate. He's very worried that "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-25", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Israel and Hezbollah have escalated attacks on each other. How likely is war?", "question_index": 15, "text": "Israel is really shrinking because on the border with Gaza, a lot of Israelis have been displaced because of the fighting and on the border with Lebanon the same.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. It's like a no-man's-land on both sides, largely. Northern Israel - empty, just empty. It's like, you know, tens of thousands of people have evacuated to the South. And then Southern Lebanon, the"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-25", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Israel and Hezbollah have escalated attacks on each other. How likely is war?", "question_index": 16, "text": "When you say that, you mean that Israel can't afford the threat from Hezbollah in a war, which will be an incentive for Israel to do an all-out war against Hezbollah?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes, it's eerie in Northern Israel. Like, I drove up in Israel. I drove to the northern border. So I drove right to the Lebanese border and to a little kibbutz called Malkia. Malkia - it's very s"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-25", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Israel and Hezbollah have escalated attacks on each other. How likely is war?", "question_index": 17, "text": "I think a lot of Biden's concern had to do with, will Iran get involved in the war if Israel all-out attacks Hezbollah in Lebanon, and will that become a regional conflict, will it draw in the U.S. too? I mean, the risks were huge. But you report that people in the Israeli leadership are really worried now since they didn't do a preemptive strike. If they strike now against Hezbollah, they think that they can, you know, eradicate most of the missiles within, like, a week or two. During that week or two, Hezbollah could fire into Israel and destroy airports, the electric grid, seaports. I mean, it could do a whole lot of damage to Israel.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that's right. They almost did. Right after October 7, when Hamas on the Southern border of Israel attacked, you know, did the big horrific attack, four days after that, the Israeli cabinet cam"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-25", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Israel and Hezbollah have escalated attacks on each other. How likely is war?", "question_index": 18, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Dexter Filkins, a staff writer for the New Yorker. And his new article is titled \"Will Hezbollah And Israel Go To War?\" We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, a very senior official in the American government - he said, in an all-out war, Israel will be set back 50 years, and Lebanon will be returned to the Middle Ages. They will really completely dest"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-25", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Israel and Hezbollah have escalated attacks on each other. How likely is war?", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Dexter Filkins, a staff writer for The New Yorker. We're talking about his reporting trip earlier this summer to the south of Lebanon, which has largely been taken over by Hezbollah fighters attacking Israel. Filkins also crossed over the border into Israel. Residents near each side of the border have fled. The conflict between Israel and Hezbollah has been escalating, and if it goes any further, it could lead to a regional war and could involve Iran and the U.S. So if there's a cease-fire deal between Israel and Hamas, what does that mean for Hezbollah and its conflict with Israel? Hezbollah started attacking Israel in sympathy with Hamas. Will Hezbollah necessarily stop if there's a cease-fire with Hamas?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, a very senior official in the American government - he said, in an all-out war, Israel will be set back 50 years, and Lebanon will be returned to the Middle Ages. They will really completely dest"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-25", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Israel and Hezbollah have escalated attacks on each other. How likely is war?", "question_index": 20, "text": "Dexter, I want to get back to your interview with the deputy secretary-general of Hezbollah. He's lived underground for years. And you asked him about that, and he told you that he's living his best life. And he said, who said we don't go to the beach and to restaurants? What is he talking about? How can you live underground and be living your best life and go to restaurants?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think they will stop. I mean, the - Hassan Nasrallah, who's the leader of Hezbollah, has been super clear. He's been super clear about it. You know, he's kind of signaling to the Israelis, we're onl"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-25", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Israel and Hezbollah have escalated attacks on each other. How likely is war?", "question_index": 21, "text": "I want to talk about another meeting you had while you were in the south of Lebanon. You met with a Hezbollah field commander at his house near the Israeli border. He also wanted to remain anonymous, so you call him Habib. And he said, the Iranians want us to escalate, so we are escalating. Is he supposed to acknowledge that he's doing Iran's bidding?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's super strange. It's, like, a really strange situation. And I think it's kind of like what we saw on October 7. And again, in Gaza, where there was - you know, they pulled the curtain back, and it"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-25", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Israel and Hezbollah have escalated attacks on each other. How likely is war?", "question_index": 22, "text": "So I don't know if you have an answer to this. But I'm curious, like, if you're one of the leaders of a militia like Hezbollah and you're taking your marching orders literally from another country, what does that do to your sense of pride about your militia, which is supposed to be representing your best interests?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. That was very mysterious to me. I was surprised at how open he was about that. But I think he was a pretty senior guy. And he'd been to Iran several times, kind of knew the Iranians, sai"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-25", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Israel and Hezbollah have escalated attacks on each other. How likely is war?", "question_index": 23, "text": "Is there a comparison between Lebanese people who don't like Hezbollah and Gazans who don't like Hamas?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think for Hezbollah, I think religion comes first. I think Shia Islam, Iranian Shia Islam, and in particular the Iranian Revolution, that's priority one. Like, they see the supreme leader in I"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-25", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Israel and Hezbollah have escalated attacks on each other. How likely is war?", "question_index": 24, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Dexter Filkins. His article in this week's New Yorker is titled \"Will Hezbollah And Israel Go To War?\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I mean, I think it's very similar. I think there's a lot of people in Lebanon who don't like Hezbollah and wish they didn't exist because they're - you know, among other things, they're dragging "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-25", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Israel and Hezbollah have escalated attacks on each other. How likely is war?", "question_index": 25, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Dexter Filkins, a staff writer for The New Yorker. His new article is titled \"Will Hezbollah And Israel Go To War?\" It's based on his reporting trip earlier this summer to the south of Lebanon, which has largely been taken over by Hezbollah fighters. He also crossed over the border to Israel. So getting back to your interview with the Hezbollah field commander, he told you that he's planning a very special operation for the Israelis. He didn't give details. You weren't sure if you should believe him. But what message do you think he was trying to send you, knowing that you're a reporter and would report on what he said?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I mean, I think it's very similar. I think there's a lot of people in Lebanon who don't like Hezbollah and wish they didn't exist because they're - you know, among other things, they're dragging "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-25", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Israel and Hezbollah have escalated attacks on each other. How likely is war?", "question_index": 26, "text": "And what do you think that would mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. You know, it was hard to tell if he was boasting. I don't think he was. But he was - you know, we were just chatting. And so - you know, and I said, look, I mean - I said, you know, the "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-25", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Israel and Hezbollah have escalated attacks on each other. How likely is war?", "question_index": 27, "text": "When Iran and Hamas and Hezbollah all say that they want to, you know, destroy or eliminate the state of Israel, what do they mean? Do they mean drive out Jews to someplace else and take it over for Islamists or for Arabs or for Sunni or Shia? Like, what is their vision? I know, you know, there's destruction, but what after?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that would be really - that would be very, very dramatic and important in Israel if something like that happened because, you know, Israel - and I spent some time in Israel for this piece. It'"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-25", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Israel and Hezbollah have escalated attacks on each other. How likely is war?", "question_index": 28, "text": "So Israel could face a war on four fronts. What is that possibility? I mean, who would be fighting who?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a really, very good - it's the basic, central question, which is, what do they want and what do they think they can achieve? On paper, they're super clear. Hezbollah, Hamas -both of them - they"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-25", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Israel and Hezbollah have escalated attacks on each other. How likely is war?", "question_index": 29, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Dexter Filkins. His article in this week's New Yorker is titled \"Will Hezbollah And Israel Go To War?\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's - you know, I think this dawned on me when I was there. Maybe it should have beforehand. But if you look at Israel on the map, they are surrounded by enemies who are getting stronger, with "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-25", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Israel and Hezbollah have escalated attacks on each other. How likely is war?", "question_index": 30, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Dexter Filkins, a staff writer for The New Yorker. His new article is titled \"Will Hezbollah And Israel Go To War?\" It's based on his reporting trip earlier this summer to the south of Lebanon, which has largely been taken over by Hezbollah fighters. He also crossed over the border to Israel. What do you think the difference would be between Kamala Harris as president and Donald Trump as president in terms of the position they'd take on Israel's conflict with Hamas and Hezbollah and what the U.S. role should be? I know you can't really predict that but if you have any impressions so far.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's - you know, I think this dawned on me when I was there. Maybe it should have beforehand. But if you look at Israel on the map, they are surrounded by enemies who are getting stronger, with "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-25", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Israel and Hezbollah have escalated attacks on each other. How likely is war?", "question_index": 31, "text": "Can you elaborate on how you think Kamala Harris, if she becomes president, would compare to how President Biden has handled the conflict?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you can't predict. But my impression would be the Israeli - the current Israeli government sees Trump as a blank check, much more leeway, don't have to deal with being criticized. You don't have"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-25", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Israel and Hezbollah have escalated attacks on each other. How likely is war?", "question_index": 32, "text": "Do you see any, like, fairly direct connections between what's happening now in the Middle East with Israel, Hamas and Hezbollah and Iran to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan that you covered?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think Biden has given the Israelis pretty much whatever they want in terms of weapons, in terms of support. Recently, he's pushed them - he's tried to push them to a cease-fire. You know, he h"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-25", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Israel and Hezbollah have escalated attacks on each other. How likely is war?", "question_index": 33, "text": "Dexter Filkins, it's great to talk with you again. Thank you so much for your reporting and for coming back on our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, definitely. The thing that links them is Iran. That was very difficult for me to see in Iraq. I mean, you know, it was covert, so it was hard - it was meant to be hard to see. It took me a long t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-25", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Israel and Hezbollah have escalated attacks on each other. How likely is war?", "question_index": 34, "text": "Dexter Filkins as a staff writer at The New Yorker. His new article is titled \"Will Hezbollah And Israel Go To War?\" If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of interviews, including this week's with Anne Applebaum about the new kind of authoritarian regime and Jon M. Chu, who directed \"Crazy Rich Asians\" as well as the film adaptation of Lin-Manuel Miranda's musical \"In The Heights\" and is now directing a film adaptation of \"Wicked.\" One name in our closing credits will soon be missing because our producer Amy Salit is retiring. After 39 years of FRESH AIR deadlines, she's definitely earned the right to some freedom and to have time to travel, which she loves to do. Amy started on our show in 1985, back when it was a daily local radio program and had recently added a half-hour national edition. When we became a daily NPR program, Amy became the producer of our author interviews and, years later, started producing our news-related interviews, which she's been doing ever since. Thirty-nine years is a long time to work with someone, and it's hard for me to imagine FRESH AIR without her. It's amazed me how she's on top of everything, including music. Keeping up with the news hasn't stood in the way of her going to clubs and music festivals, which has been so helpful in booking musicians. Our show - and me personally - owe her a lot. She's been so important in keeping the show timely and relevant. She's about to find out what it's like not to have to stay on top of everything that's happening around the world all the time. We're excited about her adventures yet to come. I'll miss you. We'll all miss you, Amy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-25", "guest": "Dexter Filkins", "title": "Israel and Hezbollah have escalated attacks on each other. How likely is war?", "question_index": 35, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Amy Salit, Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Ann Marie Baldonado, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Thea Chaloner and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Susan Nyakundi directed today's show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 0, "text": "Now, how did you come up with the one-sided phone call bit?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Amazingly, Bob Newhart won his only acting Emmy for his guest appearances on \"The Big Bang Theory,\" and it became a delightful recurring role. But Newhart was one of TV's most beloved sitcom stars. An"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 1, "text": "Bob Newhart is my guest. Now, you're Catholic. And when you were coming of age as a comic, I think a lot of the comics were Jewish comics who were getting their start in the Catskill Mountains, which was a largely Jewish resort area. And I'm wondering if you ever felt that ethnic comics had a built-in constituency, i.e. people of their ethnic group. Did you feel like you had that kind of, you know - because there was no Borscht Belt for you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is just a telephone conversation. I don't know how else to do it. That's the only way you can do it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 2, "text": "Did you play the Borscht Belt at all?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 3, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I never have."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 4, "text": "Right. So did you feel like that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Catskills? No."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 5, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I played the Poconos. That's as close as I ever came to..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 6, "text": "OK. Did you feel like you were missing out on something not being identified as an ethnic comic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...The Catskills."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 7, "text": "What did you find funny about your Catholic upbringing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, humor, I think, at that time was very regional, as I recall. It was - I remember Phil Foster doing doing routines about the Brooklyn Dodgers. And then television came along, and you ha"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 8, "text": "You could have treated as if it was a long line at the supermarket instead...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, for instance, I said the difference between Catholics and other religions is basically we have confession and non Catholics don't understand how you go in this little dark room and tell another "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 9, "text": "...Of the confessional. Can you remember for us what the venues...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, for instance, I said the difference between Catholics and other religions is basically we have confession and non Catholics don't understand how you go in this little dark room and tell another "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 10, "text": "The swift moving line.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "might have a confessional like, you know, 10 sins or less, you know?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 11, "text": "That's good.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just thought of that."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 12, "text": "Can you recall for us what your early venues were like - the smaller clubs, if there were such things at the time - and, you know, what Reno and Vegas were like when you started doing them in the '60s?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1998 interview with stand-up comic and sitcom star Bob Newhart. He died last week at age 94."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 13, "text": "And what about Vegas?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, wow. There were clubs. They weren't comedy clubs per se, much as they'd be referred to today as, with just one comic after another getting up and doing five minutes. They were folk music clubs, pl"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, you know, you mentioned Don Rickles. I know you and he are, or at least were, best friends. And it seems like such an incongruous pairing because...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Vegas was fun. It was a chance to - you'd be there for a month, so it was a chance for the family to come up and be with you on the weekends and have some kind of normalcy to your life, as much as wal"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 15, "text": "You know, I mean, the last thing in the world you would do is insult people onstage. And Don Rickles is, like, Mr. Insult Comic. Your temperaments couldn't seem more opposite.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 16, "text": "Are you really nasty off the stage, and is he really nice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't know."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 17, "text": "So where do you guys go on vacation, not to Vegas?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, he's very nice. Yeah, I'm probably nastier off the stage than I appear. And he's nicer than he appears. But we feed each other. We both - our wives enjoy each other's company, and we enjoy each ot"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 18, "text": "Oh, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no, no, no. That would be - no, that'd be a working vacation."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 19, "text": "You know, I'm wondering - I'm thinking, like, how odd it would've been if, like, say I were a journalist in Vietnam and there was Don Rickles and Bob Newhart sailing up the river. I thought I was hallucinating or something.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That'd be what they call a busman's holiday. The last trip we made we went to Southeast Asia. We went to - we flew to Singapore and got aboard a liner and made stops in Bangkok and South Vietnam and N"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 20, "text": "Did you run into any people who did a real double take seeing you and he go by?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That'd be what they call a busman's holiday. The last trip we made we went to Southeast Asia. We went to - we flew to Singapore and got aboard a liner and made stops in Bangkok and South Vietnam and N"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I met a man. I'm confused now whether it was China or Vietnam. But anyway, they kind of knew who I was, but they didn't know who Don was. And I think that upset him. And I derived a great deal of sati"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 22, "text": "Well, does he do that when he's touring?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But that has happened before. We traveled in Europe. And of course, they don't really know either of us, and they certainly don't know what to make of Don. Here's this loud American who's just yelling"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 23, "text": "I mean, does he do that as shtick, or is that just the way he treats people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Oh, sure, oh, sure. And so they don't quite know what to make of Don when we're on vacation."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 24, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He can't help it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 25, "text": "I have another question about when you started doing stand-up comedy. You started doing stand-up during the era I've come to think of as the you-dirty-rat era...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University in New Jersey. We're remembering Bob Newhart, the comedian and actor whose astoundingly long and successful "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 26, "text": "...Because every stand-up comic was compelled to do impersonations of James Cagney. And they also were required to do impersonations of Armstrong and Bogart, and you did some of those yourself.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 27, "text": "Jokes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was never much of a impersonator. Comics kind of have an ear for that sort of thing. But I was never real good at it. I found what was interesting - and it certainly wasn't planned in any way. But t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 28, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Or - jokes. I'll burn a hole in the coat. You know, you like this jacket? It's a beautiful jacket. I got eight pairs of pants with it. With my luck, I'll burn a hole in the coat. You know, well, an"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 29, "text": "Thank goodness.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Didn't mean anything to them, you know?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 30, "text": "Right. And - I mean, you had an onstage persona. Like you said, it wasn't just jokes. It was a whole character that was telling these stories.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so to that extent, the humor that was being done in nightclubs was irrelevant to them. And so they would - and it was also very expensive. Nightclubs had a cover charge, and it was very expensive "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 31, "text": "Let me ask you about the first sitcom that you did, the first \"Newhart Show,\" and you played a psychiatrist. It's common now to have stand-up comics with they own sitcoms. In fact, it's almost obligatory.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 32, "text": "What was it like when you were a stand-up comic, having a sitcom built around you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 33, "text": "Right, suicidal depression. Yes. Right - just Mr. Carlin", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was paternalistic, really, because my manager - and my manager still is Arthur Price - and he and Mary Tyler Moore and Grant Tinker formed MTM Productions. And with the success of Mary's show"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was paternalistic, really, because my manager - and my manager still is Arthur Price - and he and Mary Tyler Moore and Grant Tinker formed MTM Productions. And with the success of Mary's show"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 35, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, yeah. Mr. Carlin, actually, was worse at the end of six years than he was when he originally came to me."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 36, "text": "Now, part of your persona in \"The Newhart Show\" was - you know, he was this straight-laced, middle-of-the-road guy who was kind of dull.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Emily Hartley) Twenty-two."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 37, "text": "Right? How did the writers come up with that aspect of it - surrounded by a lot of nutty, eccentric people, but he was kind of dull?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 38, "text": "Do you have a favorite episode from the first \"Newhart\" show?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "? So we tried to find those elements in \"Newhart,\" and we found them in the guests. No matter how unreasonable the guests were, you still had to kind of say, certainly, sir, certainly. I'll send the m"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 39, "text": "This is on the Vermont show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It got a huge laugh, and to me, it summed up what comedy does. It diffuses tensions in many areas. It gives you distance so that you can stand back and laugh at things. But there were a lot of \"Bob Ne"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 40, "text": "Well, that was a great show, too, the show in which you played an innkeeper in Vermont and who also, at least for several years, hosted a local TV show called...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 41, "text": "...\"Vermont Today,\" in which...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 42, "text": "...Michael, your producer, would either book you the most ludicrous or just incredibly boring guests.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 43, "text": "And I'd love the look on your face when you were interviewing somebody just outrageously dull, you know, doing an outrageously pointless interview.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 44, "text": "You know, the - your shows have been rerun a lot on Nick at Nite. And I think there was one - I don't know - 24- or 48-hour period when they did a whole Bob-A-Thon. They were bringing on, I guess, a new series of yours, a new-in-rerun series of yours. And to introduce it and celebrate it, there was just hour after hour of continuous Newhart programs. What was that like for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And Michael was trying to jazz it up. He had all kinds of things going in the background to kind of jazz it up."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 45, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's a tribute to the cast and to the writing that the writing is still valid, and I had something to do with that. I said - I told the writers, don't put in any Gerald Ford jokes, you know, b"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 46, "text": "The lapels and the sideburns don't hold up", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...For that reason. And it holds up. The material holds up, which is largely attributed to the writing."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 47, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...For that reason. And it holds up. The material holds up, which is largely attributed to the writing."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 48, "text": "You wore a lot of plaid, also.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's the only thing. I know."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 49, "text": "Now, whose idea was all the plaid?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Well, see; my..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 50, "text": "Are you kidding?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My dresser was colorblind. ***"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 51, "text": "Oh, that's so Newhart.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Name was Ralph. Yeah. And he was such a nice guy. We didn't want to say anything, but..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 52, "text": "It's, like, quintssential Newhart.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...My wife..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 53, "text": "That's funny.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 54, "text": "Yeah, you'd think somebody might have said something about it at the studio or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But, you know, of all careers to choose when you're colorblind, I mean, the wardrobe seems like the last one."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 55, "text": "When you started on television, it was in the days when there were three networks in many cities, a couple of, you know, syndicated kind of channels. But when a show was popular, everybody seemed to watch it. And television has just become such a different experience now because there's so many channels. Do you feel the difference?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I remember reading an article in a paper about a one-eyed bullfighter - and again, we get back to material coming out of the papers - a one-eyed bullfighter in Spain who was reapplying to - for licens"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 56, "text": "That's an enormous amount of people.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, of course, we were - we used to get shares like 42, 43 shares."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 57, "text": "Exactly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, you know, those are Super Bowl shares now."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 58, "text": "Huh. The first \"Newhart\" show was on Saturday night - right? - after...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I never knew I was a hit in the Middle East."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 59, "text": "...\"Mary Tyler Moore.\" It was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 60, "text": "Was Saturday night a good time? I remember you know, like, when I didn't have something to do, when I was feeling really bad about it...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was \"All In The Family,\" \"M*A*S*H*,\" \"Mary Tyler Moore,\" us and \"Carol Burnett.\""}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 61, "text": "...At least I could stay home and watch you and Mary Tyler Moore, so it wasn't a total loss.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It became..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 62, "text": "I don't remember.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was a time shift. People stayed home Saturday because of that lineup, as they stay home Thursday because of NBC's must-see Thursdays. And it used to be - I think Monday was \"Lucy,\" I think; w"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 63, "text": "When I think of the Newhart character and your shows from the '70s and the '80s, I think of somebody who stammers a lot, not because he's unsure of what he feels but because he can't really afford to reveal what he really feels because it might be a little harsh, or it might be a little too something. So there's this constant kind of, like, stammering to just, you know, cover up and to try to kind of package in a better way what it is that he's really thinking or feeling. Does that work for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think Monday, and then I think Berle was Tuesday. And so it shifted. That was must-see Saturday."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 64, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You better get some words out of the script. No, it isn't an affectation. It's the way I speak, although I do - I know what you're saying. It does help to get you over an uncomfortable moment. I me"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 65, "text": "Well, it's really been a pleasure to talk with you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...But at the same time has difficulty saying, you know, what he means."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-07-26", "guest": "Bob Newhart", "title": "Remembering comic and actor Bob Newhart", "question_index": 66, "text": "I want to thank you very much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "The Freedom Singers", "title": "Remembering Freedom Singer Bernice Johnson Reagon", "question_index": 0, "text": "Bernice Reagon, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's The Freedom Singers, a vocal quartet that grew out of the civil rights movement and provided inspiration for fellow protesters as they faced police, arrest or jail. We're going to remember Bern"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "The Freedom Singers", "title": "Remembering Freedom Singer Bernice Johnson Reagon", "question_index": 1, "text": "We're going to hear \"Guide My Feet, While I Run This Race.\" Now, how did you first learn this song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "The Freedom Singers", "title": "Remembering Freedom Singer Bernice Johnson Reagon", "question_index": 2, "text": "This is Bernice Johnson Reagon from her latest album, \"River Of Life.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. I don't remember not knowing the song. Therefore, I probably learned it in church. And there is a part of my repertoire that seemed to have come to me by me growing up in a Black communi"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "The Freedom Singers", "title": "Remembering Freedom Singer Bernice Johnson Reagon", "question_index": 3, "text": "That's from Bernice Johnson Reagon's latest album, \"River Of Life.\" And, again, she's doing all the voices on that through overdubbing. Now, you dedicate that album to the singing tradition of the Black American Baptist Church, especially the Mount Early Baptist Church in Worth County, Ga., where you were baptized. What was the singing tradition you came up in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Oh, Lord, now, guide my feet while I run this race. Lord, guide my feet while I run this race. Oh, Lord, now, guide my feet while I run this race. Lord, I don't want to run this race in vain"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "The Freedom Singers", "title": "Remembering Freedom Singer Bernice Johnson Reagon", "question_index": 4, "text": "That's kind of what you were doing by yourself with all of your voices...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I call it an unrehearsed congregational style. And what I mean by that is there is a way in which a song is started by a song leader, and the rest of the people in the church come in and join an"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "The Freedom Singers", "title": "Remembering Freedom Singer Bernice Johnson Reagon", "question_index": 5, "text": "...On the recording we just heard.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "The Freedom Singers", "title": "Remembering Freedom Singer Bernice Johnson Reagon", "question_index": 6, "text": "Now, did you sing in a choir, or did the whole congregation sing together?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So that's what influences me when I am creating choral music - that particular congregational tradition."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "The Freedom Singers", "title": "Remembering Freedom Singer Bernice Johnson Reagon", "question_index": 7, "text": "Now, your father was a Baptist preacher. Did you hear much secular music when you were growing up, or was it mostly church music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I sang in a choir. This style is older than what is called gospel music. When I sang in a choir, I was in a gospel choir. The first difference is you call a rehearsal. You learn the songs. You learn t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "The Freedom Singers", "title": "Remembering Freedom Singer Bernice Johnson Reagon", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is a disc jockey.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I heard secular music, but in the early years growing up, my family was fairly strict so that they did not care that much for us listening to secular music. By the time I got to teen age, my brother, "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "The Freedom Singers", "title": "Remembering Freedom Singer Bernice Johnson Reagon", "question_index": 9, "text": "Now, you went to college at Albany College, which was a Black college in Georgia.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. And I learned about Screamin' Jay Hawkins, Howlin' Wolf, Lightnin' Hopkins, all of the blues - B.B. King - between midnight and day, listening to the radio coming into my room. By the ti"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "The Freedom Singers", "title": "Remembering Freedom Singer Bernice Johnson Reagon", "question_index": 10, "text": "You were a music major when you went to college.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Georgia."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "The Freedom Singers", "title": "Remembering Freedom Singer Bernice Johnson Reagon", "question_index": 11, "text": "What kind of music were you studying?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "The Freedom Singers", "title": "Remembering Freedom Singer Bernice Johnson Reagon", "question_index": 12, "text": "That's very interesting since you were so steeped in the music of the church to start singing lieder, an art song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Euro-classical tradition. I was a contralto - so studying Italian arias and German lieder."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "The Freedom Singers", "title": "Remembering Freedom Singer Bernice Johnson Reagon", "question_index": 13, "text": "When you started to sing with The Freedom Singers, did you feel like you were turning your back on what you were supposed to be doing - learning more about the European singing tradition?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, within the school system, the Black school system, when you get to high school, if you're a singer, you begin to do anthems. You learn the \"Hallelujah Chorus.\" You learned \"Alleluia.\" There are "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "The Freedom Singers", "title": "Remembering Freedom Singer Bernice Johnson Reagon", "question_index": 14, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That decision didn't come that hard. The first thing I decided was I was going to be in the movement."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "The Freedom Singers", "title": "Remembering Freedom Singer Bernice Johnson Reagon", "question_index": 15, "text": "Can you describe how The Freedom Singers were founded?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Bernice Johnson Reagon speaking to Terry Gross in 1988 - more after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1988 interview with singer and musical historian Bernice Jo"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "The Freedom Singers", "title": "Remembering Freedom Singer Bernice Johnson Reagon", "question_index": 16, "text": "We call the songs that you sang freedom songs, but some of them were spiritual. Some of them were old slave songs, too, weren't they? I mean, how did...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Albany, Ga., was a singing movement, and when the news reporters began to come down, they came down in December '62 as a result of King being arrested. I was already in jail, so I missed most of that,"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "The Freedom Singers", "title": "Remembering Freedom Singer Bernice Johnson Reagon", "question_index": 17, "text": "You know, you must have also really had to know what song to sing under which circumstances, 'cause there were times, probably, you needed to sing a song to help organize people. Other times, you needed to sing a song to help people find their courage to stand up to what was about to happen. Did you intuitively have a sense of what song to do when?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The freedom songs came out of the repertoire first, the standard repertoire of what you were singing, so that you would have a song like... (Singing) Paul and Silas, bound in jail, had no money for to"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "The Freedom Singers", "title": "Remembering Freedom Singer Bernice Johnson Reagon", "question_index": 18, "text": "Was there a time when you were with the Freedom Singers - an example of a time where you sang a certain song and it really kind of changed the mood or brought the mood to the next level?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The song that you're supposed to sing that suits the occasion comes up in you if you're in the occasion yourself, so you don't have to make a list if you yourself are a part of what's happening. The s"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "The Freedom Singers", "title": "Remembering Freedom Singer Bernice Johnson Reagon", "question_index": 19, "text": "When The Freedom Singers split up, and when there weren't a constant - when there weren't constant rallies to sing at, and demonstrations, did you feel lost for a while, trying to figure out what to do with your singing and, you know, what to do - what to do with your life, even?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The singing with the Freedom Singers is different, in a way, than singing in the movement on the scene. By the time we formed the Freedom Singers, we were transporting a microcosm experience, so we wo"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "The Freedom Singers", "title": "Remembering Freedom Singer Bernice Johnson Reagon", "question_index": 20, "text": "Oh, I see.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Cordell and I got married, so then I left the Freedom Singers before the Freedom Singers split up."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "The Freedom Singers", "title": "Remembering Freedom Singer Bernice Johnson Reagon", "question_index": 21, "text": "You're in the unusual position of being a scholar of the movement that you contributed to. You know, you were one of the Freedom Singers, but now as a scholar, you have been collecting songs from the movement, and going back and documenting sound recordings from the civil rights movement. Have you learned things that you weren't aware of then that were happening around you? I mean, have you gotten a different perspective as a scholar than the perspective that you had as a participant?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I had my first child in '64. I traveled with the Freedom Singers in '63. There was another group of Freedom Singers formed, but I was being a mother in Atlanta. I had a period where I had to decid"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "The Freedom Singers", "title": "Remembering Freedom Singer Bernice Johnson Reagon", "question_index": 22, "text": "Well, I want to thank you very much for sharing some of your research and your personal experiences with us. Thank you so much for being here.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. I was a SNCC worker, which means I was a radical, and I considered myself in the vanguard, and I saw everything else from that point of view. Being a scholar gives me a chance to back way "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 0, "text": "Welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's Lena Horne from the 1943 film \"Stormy Weather.\" She became Hollywood's first glamorous Black movie star. We're going to listen back to an interview with her daughter, Gail Lumet Buckley, who wr"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 1, "text": "Why did you want to write about your family?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much. I'm happy to be here."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 2, "text": "The Horne family was a pretty prosperous family.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was the material that said, write about me, or write about it, or however material speaks to you. But I had this trunk of family papers that had been in my grandfather's trunk, which actually"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 3, "text": "I'm reminded - a poet once said to me that most Black people are expected to tell stories of what it was like growing up poor, and white people always want to hear that from them. And I wonder...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, as Black families go. Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 4, "text": "...If you think that's true and if you think, in the process, that the Black middle class has really been overlooked or not understood.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 5, "text": "You referred to the Black bourgeoisie and use that term more than the Black middle class.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that's a very astute point. I think that's why nobody's really cared about the Black middle class - because they weren't headline-makers. They were people who lived perhaps as your family migh"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 6, "text": "Let me ask you about the expression.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 7, "text": "How did the Horne family become a member of this more prosperous class?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Well, it comes from E. Franklin Frazier's book of the same name, \"The Black Bourgeoisie.\" And the people I'm writing about were the Black bourgeoisie that he was writing about. The Black middle c"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 8, "text": "Your grandparents seemed to have been the couple that violated the traditions...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it started right after the Civil War. They were fortunate in their slavery, if you could call slaves fortunate. They were house slaves. They lived in Atlanta rather than in the country. "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 9, "text": "...Of the Horne family.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 10, "text": "What did your grandparents do to earn the reputation of black sheep?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Third-generation black sheep is what they were. They said, to heck with all this uplift and being do-gooders, because my great-grandparents were definitely do-gooders."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 11, "text": "So your mother ended up getting shuttled back and forth between relatives in the South and in the North.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my grandfather theoretically - this is family history. We hope it's true. At least I hope it's true 'cause it's fun - made a killing on the Black Sox scandal of 1921, the baseball fix. He certai"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 12, "text": "So in a way, she was really a perpetual outsider...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, she did. She lived - she was initially brought up by her grandmother in Brooklyn, the wonderful Cora Calhoun, feminist and suffragette. And then her mother decided, I want this child back. And sh"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 13, "text": "...As a child.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 14, "text": "How did your mother start in show business?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Gail Lumet Buckley speaking to Terry Gross in 1986 - more after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1986 interview with Gail Lumet Buckley, who wrote two books chr"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 15, "text": "It's interesting. Her father provided protections...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she'd done amateur theatrics in clubs, in her various little clubs in Brooklyn. The Junior Debs, they were called, and they would do - she wanted to sing and dance. Her mother - she'd always had"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 16, "text": "...That'd speak for her...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 17, "text": "...When she was playing in these clubs that were frequently run by the mob.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 18, "text": "Your mother spent some time touring with the Charlie Barnet band, and they'd tour through the South...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, absolutely. Dutch Schultz's mob protected her in the Cotton Club because he was very close to Dutch Schultz's Black numbers men."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 19, "text": "...And run into all kinds of segregation problems. Did she ever consider trying to pass for white during that period?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 20, "text": "When your mother, Lena Horne, signed her MGM contract, she was, as you describe her, the first glamorous Black star in Hollywood. So, I mean, before her...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She never did, though people earlier in her career and later in her career - all through her career in the early stages, people would suggest it, and she always refused."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 21, "text": "...What could Blacks play?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 22, "text": "So what did Paul Robeson want your mother to do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you played domestics, or you played jungle extras. She was also the first long-term contract ever given a Black player in Hollywood, and she was Walter White and Paul Robeson's test case. She wa"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 23, "text": "Did she have any doubts about taking on this work?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wanted her to refuse to play a domestic, to refuse to play any role that was demeaning to Blacks and to stick by that and not be swayed from it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 24, "text": "It's quite a responsibility.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she did. She did, and she went back to New York kind of very upset. I mean, it had all been so fast. She'd..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 25, "text": "So did she get roles? Were there roles for her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's an incredible responsibility, and she'd been this sort of overnight, huge success in the Hollywood nightclub. She'd auditioned for Louis B. Mayer, who'd said, yes, sign her up instantly. And, of "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 26, "text": "Why don't you explain how that worked when they cut out parts that she was in...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There were no roles. There were never roles. It could not - it did not go that far. All her scenes were cut out of the South. In the South, her scenes were cut out, so she had to be filmed separately."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 27, "text": "...In the South? Like, in \"Words And Music,\" which was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 28, "text": "...The movie biography of Rodgers and Hart...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, they would cut out..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 29, "text": "...How would that be done?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 30, "text": "So she couldn't be in anything that furthered the plot.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They would cut out \"The Lady Is A Tramp,\" which she sang in. They would just snip it out, take scissors and snip, snip when it got south of the Mason-Dixon line."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 31, "text": "She must have been very frustrated.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, she could never be in anything that furthered the plot or was crucial to - no - that was a crucial moment in the movie - never."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 32, "text": "Did she ever talk to you about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She must have been."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 33, "text": "You went to Harvard, and your going to Harvard coincided with the civil rights movement.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She only talked about it when she did her show, funnily enough, finally. She compensated by making a very hugely successful nightclub career and a very successful career in Europe."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 34, "text": "Didn't you go when you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it didn't, actually."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 35, "text": "Oh, I thought you went a little later than that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I graduated in 1959."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 36, "text": "When the civil rights movement did grow...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I graduated before there was the civil rights movement, the woman's movement, the pill, pot. We were prehistoric. We were the Eisenhower generation. We were - when I was a senior, my roommate's fi"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 37, "text": "Your mother, when she got married, made sure to keep Horne in her name. So she used that as just - she continued to use that name...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was Kennedy that got me back. In 1960, I came home and immediately went out and campaigned for Kennedy and made speeches for him and voted for him - the first person I voted for. My entire cl"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 38, "text": "...As her stage name...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 39, "text": "...Then used hyphenated names...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 40, "text": "...For her private life. But Horne was always in it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 41, "text": "And Horne really meant something...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 42, "text": "...In...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 43, "text": "...New York.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 44, "text": "You never really had Horne...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 45, "text": "...In your name.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 46, "text": "Has writing the book made you want to, like, stick it back in? No?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My name - I had it once. Gail Horne Jones was the name I was christened or baptized - Gail Horne Jones."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 47, "text": "I want to thank you a lot for talking with us...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No because I - well, I signed the book contract as Lumet. And then I married Kevin Buckley, and I wanted Buckley to be in there. So it was a funny - I couldn't - there was no way to be Gail Horne 'cau"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 48, "text": "...About your family.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 49, "text": "Thanks for being here.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I loved doing it. It was fun."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "Lena Horne", "title": "Remembering writer Gail Lumet Buckley", "question_index": 50, "text": "Oh, thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're a wonderful interviewer. Thank you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "James Baldwin", "title": "Celebrating James Baldwin, on what would have been his 100th birthday", "question_index": 0, "text": "Was it pretty frightening to have him as a father? And I'm thinking if he thought that he was directly connected to God, then it really gave him a lot of power.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Daddy was old-fashioned, fire and brimstone hellfire preacher, you know, very direct, very chilling sometimes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "James Baldwin", "title": "Celebrating James Baldwin, on what would have been his 100th birthday", "question_index": 1, "text": "You became a preacher when you were 14.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was something very frightening about it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "James Baldwin", "title": "Celebrating James Baldwin, on what would have been his 100th birthday", "question_index": 2, "text": "Why did you do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "James Baldwin", "title": "Celebrating James Baldwin, on what would have been his 100th birthday", "question_index": 3, "text": "What did you do to try to get your foot in the door somewhere as a writer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was almost inevitable, you know, being raised that way. And after all, I'm not doubting anything my father said, not doubting the gospel, not doubting the church, you know? And at the time of"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "James Baldwin", "title": "Celebrating James Baldwin, on what would have been his 100th birthday", "question_index": 4, "text": "\"Go Tell It On The Mountain\" was a fairly autobiographical novel. And it really won you a lot of attention and prestige in America. Your book of essays, \"The Fire Next Time,\" which was published in 1963, was, I think, perceived by many whites as an attack against whites, like he's threatening us with the fire next time. Did that happen? Did some white people see it that way, and did it change your reputation to becoming more of a controversial writer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I wrote all the time, you know? I worked all day and I wrote all night. And I was defined as a young Negro writer. And that meant that certain things were expected of a young Negro writer. And w"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "James Baldwin", "title": "Celebrating James Baldwin, on what would have been his 100th birthday", "question_index": 5, "text": "Some of your writing has really been, I think, very important to gay people and people in the gay movement in America. And I wonder if the gay liberation movement had any effect on you, if it was important for you to have, you know, a movement...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Long before that, when I first got South, first went South and tried to begin to - because I went as a reporter, and I tried to get the story published, you know? The first few times, the first few ma"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "James Baldwin", "title": "Celebrating James Baldwin, on what would have been his 100th birthday", "question_index": 6, "text": "...About that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-01", "guest": "James Baldwin", "title": "Celebrating James Baldwin, on what would have been his 100th birthday", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no. I left the church when I was 17. I have not joined anything since. You see; before I left this country, I had been afflicted with so many labels that I'd become invisible to myself."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 0, "text": "My guest, Safiya Sinclair, grew up in a Rasta family in Montego Bay, Jamaica. Her father is a reggae singer and guitarist. Her hair was twisted into dreadlocks until she was 19. Here's what being Rasta meant in her life - men. Ruled, women were subservient. Women's place was as mother, cook and homemaker. The outside world was Babylon - corrupt, debauched or associated with colonialism or the police. The people in Babylon were heathen and to be avoided. God, Jah, was Haile Selassie, who was the Emperor of Ethiopia from 1930 to 1974. His portrait, Sinclair writes, was exalted and worshipped in the many rented homes of her childhood. There were rules - lots of rules - about what she could eat, how to dress, who she was forbidden to befriend. She came to realize that for her, being Rasta meant living in a cage. She had to find a way out. It was through reading and writing poems that she came to better know herself and to break out of the cage and enter the larger world. When she was still in her teens, her poems were published in the Jamaica Observer Literary Arts Sunday Supplement. She got a scholarship to Bennington College in Vermont and went on to get her MFA at the University of Virginia and her Ph.D. from the University of Southern California. She now teaches at Arizona State University. Her first book was a collection of poems called \"Cannibal.\" It won several awards. Now she's written a memoir called \"How To Say Babylon.\" Safiya Sinclair, welcome to FRESH AIR. I love your memoir, and I'm so happy to have you on our show.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies. Today we're going to listen to the interview Terry Gross recorded last year with Jamaican poet Safiya Sinclair when her memoir, \"Hoy To Say Babylon,\" was published."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 1, "text": "I want to start with some brief history of the Rastafari. Most Americans just know Rastas as associated with reggae, Bob Marley. They know Haile Selassie figures into it, but I think a lot of Americans aren't sure exactly how. And your memoir actually starts with some of the history, and it's really kind of fascinating. So can we start just with Haile Selassie and why he is seen as God, as Jah. He was the emperor of Ethiopia.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. Thanks so much for having me."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 2, "text": "And Haile Selassie was born Ras Tafari Makonnen. So that's where Rastafari...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. He was the emperor of Ethiopia. He was coronated, I believe, in the early 1930s or a little bit before that. But, you know, if we trace the roots of the Rastafari movement, it goes back to the Pa"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 3, "text": "...Comes from.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 4, "text": "So the Rastafari were always considered outcasts in Jamaica. Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "His name was Ras Tafari Makonnen. And so actually, the term Rastafari comes from his name. Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 5, "text": "What were you taught to believe about the righteous life, about the life of a good Rastafari girl?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. You know, the movement began in the early 1930s, as I said, when Jamaica was still a colony of Britain. And Jamaica itself is a deeply Christian country, which I think is something that most peop"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 6, "text": "And Jah...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I was taught to be pure. Like, purity was a big defining thing for me growing up. My father would always talk about the importance of my purity because the worst thing a woman could be - or "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 7, "text": "...Is God or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 8, "text": "...Haile...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Jah is the..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 9, "text": "Is that synonymous with Haile Selassie, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Godhead figure. Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 10, "text": "So what did purity mean in your home as it pertained to you? What did you have to do to be pure or avoid doing to be pure?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "With Haile Selassie. Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 11, "text": "I want to get back to that. But in keeping with the idea of purity, what did it mean to start menstruating? How did that affect your purity?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Purity was about how one kept your mind and your body clean. And so it defined what we ate. We had to eat a specific diet called an ital diet. That was no meat, no dairy, no fish, no eggs, no s"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 12, "text": "Does that come from the Old Testament? 'Cause I know in very strict Judaism, women who are menstruating are considered unclean and have to have a kind of ritual bath when the cycle is over.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. A lot of the men in Rastafari believe that menstruation makes a woman unclean and also makes them more susceptible to moral weakness. And so from a very young age, I became obsessed with this id"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 13, "text": "And Mosaic, meaning from the Moses era.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I think it is connected to Jewish Mosaic laws, and there is a certain sect of Rastafari that leans toward these rules that are tied to the Jewish Mosaic laws. Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 14, "text": "So when you talk about Rastafari and you talk about your father, I sometimes in the memoir couldn't distinguish between the two because Rastafari as a community - well, there are several different sects of Rastafari. But then your father, at some point - on page 13, there's a sentence that starts, before my father thought that he was God. And I thought, wow, that's quite a thought. So what were you raised with that you think was, like, your father's own interpretation of Rastafari beliefs to give him more authority and power in the home, and what was more commonly believed among the different sects of Rastafari? Could you tell the difference?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well, we need to take a short break here. So let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is poet and now memoirist Safiya Sinclair. Her new memoir is called \"How To Say Babylon,\" and it's about being raised in Montego Bay, Jamaica, in a Rastafari family. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I could not tell the difference when I was growing up. I had to learn a lot of it before I began to write the book. So I think most people don't realize that for Rastafari, there is no one united book"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. If you're just joining us, my guest is Safiya Sinclair. She's a poet and now a memoirist. Her new memoir is called \"How To Say Babylon\" and is about being raised in Montego Bay, Jamaica, in a Rastafari family in a culture where women were subservient. So when you went to school, it took you out of the isolation that you were raised in. But on the other hand, you were isolated within school in the sense that it was only - it was a new thing that public schools were allowed to admit Rastafari children. They had been banned from going to public school. And, of course, you stood out because of your dreadlocks, and you also stood out because of your family's beliefs. So what was it like being let out of the gate but going to a place where you were - you know, you and your siblings were, like, the only ones who were Rasta?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I could not tell the difference when I was growing up. I had to learn a lot of it before I began to write the book. So I think most people don't realize that for Rastafari, there is no one united book"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 17, "text": "Your mother had six fingers on both hands.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, the first time I went to school with dreadlocks - and in Jamaica, when you wear your dreadlocks, it is a signifier to anyone around you that you are Rastafari. You know, it's not a choice. It'"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 18, "text": "So you always grew up with a sense of - there was something unique about your mother and that not everybody was really the same. Even the most common thing, having five fingers, was not true for your mother. Your mother had been told, before she knew your father, that she would never have children.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 19, "text": "You know, I think it was a nurse or a doctor who diagnosed that. And she wanted to have children so badly, but she believed that. And your father told her, no, you're with me. We believe in Jah. You will have children. And you were the first-born, and it was a miracle in your family. So you got the sense, I think, early on that your family was different, that miracles could happen...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 20, "text": "...That people could be born different. How did that play into your - the ideas that your father was instilling in you and to feeling so different in the outside world?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 21, "text": "Yeah, I think, like, your brother became a debating champion.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, for a long time my siblings and I felt like it was a gift, and it was something that we took pride in, that we were different. And, you know, our mother was always kind of wondrous to us, not "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 22, "text": "Your sister...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 23, "text": "Yeah. And your sister had the highest grades in her, basically, finishing exams in high school - the highest grades in several genres of study departments, of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Amazing debate champion, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 24, "text": "Yeah, in the entire Caribbean. And you got the scholarship to go to Bennington and became who you are now, a, you know, award-winning poet and now a memoirist. How did that happen? How did you - how were you raised so isolated and yet excel so much?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In the entire Caribbean."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 25, "text": "And can I just stop you there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I know it's all because of my mother. Like, she instilled in me and my..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 26, "text": "Your mother came with you today, and I think she might be listening in the control room. I'm not sure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 27, "text": "I just want to give her a shout because you write so beautifully about her. I so much kind of wanted to meet her. I think she sounds just, like, so special...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She is listening. Hi, Mom."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 28, "text": "...In how she protected you and was on your side. And in spite of the role that women were supposed to play, she managed to teach other children. She started her own program in helping children learn and raise their IQ.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 29, "text": "So hello to your mother.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. She did."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 30, "text": "So I should mention when I said I think your mother's in the control room...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hi, Mom. Yeah, and she saw education as her civic duty. Like, she really, truly believed that every child should have a good education. And even though she didn't have formal training, she invented he"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 31, "text": "...You're in a studio in New York. You're at the NPR Bureau in New York, and I'm in our...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 32, "text": "...FRESH AIR studio in Philadelphia. So that's why I couldn't see for sure if your mother was in the control room...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 33, "text": "...In case that sounded a little weird to anybody. All right, so we need to take another break here. So let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Safiya Sinclair, and her new memoir is called \"How To Say Babylon.\" And it's about being raised in Montego Bay, Jamaica, in a Rastafari family. We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She's there, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 34, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Safiya Sinclair. Her new memoir, \"How To Say Babylon,\" is about being raised in Montego Bay, Jamaica, in a Rastafari family. In a culture where women were subservient, the role of women was to have babies, raise children, cook and clean. And children were taught that the outside world was Babylon, and the people who inhabited it were heathen. Her entry into a larger world was through reading and writing. She came to America to attend Bennington College on a scholarship, then got her MFA from the University of Virginia and her Ph.D. from the University of Southern California. She now teaches at Arizona State University. Her first book was a collection of poems called \"Cannibal.\" You were kind of a target at school. People didn't want to be your friend. Your father didn't let you have friends anyway. And after an argument in school, you intentionally stepped on an old piece of wood with a rusty nail sticking out, and you spiked your foot on it very intentionally and walked around with it until the wood was actually attached to your foot. What were you thinking about when you did that, and why did you want to express your anger and frustration through self-harm?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She's there, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 35, "text": "Was that the beginning of a period of self-harm?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, this happened after a girl that I thought was my friend - at school, she told me, I don't want to be your friend. I don't want to be friends with a Rasta. And so for me, that was the f"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 36, "text": "How did you get out of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was. Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 37, "text": "So since this poem that you wrote when you were young is so significant in your life, could you read a few lines of it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, listeners might be tired of hearing me talk about poetry, but it was really poetry. Like, poetry was the thing that pulled me out of this period of thinking about myself in this really diminis"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 38, "text": "That sounds like a very self-empowering poem.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. This is \"Silver.\" I wrote this when I was 16. (Reading) Silver flows through my veins into my hands when I caress the strings of my guitar. Silver is the moon I swallowed on a dry, dreary night "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 39, "text": "So your father was always protecting your purity and trying to prevent you from being exposed to Babylon and to the heathen. And I don't think he and your mother ever married because he said that the Rasta didn't believe in marriage. But then later, you found out that he had a wife when you were around 3, and she had children. And your father had approached you and your siblings once and said, like, what would you think of having a second mother? And you said, no, we have a mother. But your mother heard that, too, and she certainly had a bad reaction to that. Can you tell us about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was. This poem really saved me from, you know, my own destructive devices."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 40, "text": "Your mother walked out on him after that, but she came right back 'cause she had no place to go. She had no money to go anyplace. She couldn't drive. She couldn't afford a taxi. So she came back. But did life change after that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I can tell you about my reaction, not so much hers. But I can say that my brother and I were very angry about this question that was posed to us by our father, and that was the end of it. You kn"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 41, "text": "I think it may have been around this time that you had an image of yourself - like, a ghostly image of yourself as a middle-aged or older woman who - well, you describe the image.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. You know, she came back because of us, because of me and my siblings and because of her enduring love for us. And for a long time, I couldn't understand why she made that choice. But now I know. "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 42, "text": "How old were you when you cut them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So as time went on and I was living with these rules of Rastafari and living as this person that felt so far removed from myself and from who I believed I wanted to be, I had this moment when I "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 43, "text": "Tell us what it was like to go to a hair salon for the first time in your life, which, to you, was like - you had been told that was basically, like, ground zero of Babylon, you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was 19."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 44, "text": "So what was it like for you to enter that and be a part of it, to be transformed within it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. It was like..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 45, "text": "Wait, so let's back up. Let's start with cutting the dreadlocks.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I have so many feelings now looking back on it. So I had cut my dreadlocks, but the thought of entering the salon was that I was going to straighten my hair. I was going to relax it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 46, "text": "So your mother and who cut them for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 47, "text": "And what did it feel like as those dreadlocks were being cut from your head, the ones that you'd worn your whole life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mother and a friend of hers, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 48, "text": "It's time for another break, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Safiya Sinclair. Her new memoir is called \"How To Say Babylon.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It felt freeing. It felt, also - I was surprised by how emotional I was about it. I'd spent maybe the last decade before that wishing for this moment. And when it finally happened, I felt free. I felt"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 49, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Safiya Sinclair. She's a poet, and now she has a new memoir called \"How To Say Babylon.\" It's about being raised in Montego Bay, Jamaica, in a Rastafari family. So let's get back to the salon and going there to get your hair straightened. What was that experience like for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It felt freeing. It felt, also - I was surprised by how emotional I was about it. I'd spent maybe the last decade before that wishing for this moment. And when it finally happened, I felt free. I felt"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 50, "text": "What was your father's reaction when he saw you without your dreadlocks?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it was bizarre and wonderful all at the same time - bizarre because, as you say, it was walking into this alien world. It was walking into the heart of Babylon - right? - where all the women t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 51, "text": "And you staged a rebellion - I mean, not knowingly, but...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was furious. You know, he looked through me like I was a ghost. I did not exist to him. I had become Babylon. And, you know, after I cut my dreadlocks, my middle sister cut her dreadlocks, and then"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 52, "text": "...That's probably how it looked to him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not knowingly but happily."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 53, "text": "Can I ask how you wear your hair now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 54, "text": "So I want to skip ahead a little in the story of your life. You had to live at home for a while, even after cutting your dreads. You were on terrible terms with your father. You ended up getting a scholarship to Bennington, and then you did your master of fine arts in Charlottesville at the University of Virginia. And you got there in 2012. And this was your first time living in a Southern state in the U.S., a former Confederate state. And as you write, that - you know, that the signs of the slave past were all around her, and you had to learn to live in a town that you say was built on the bones of the enslaved. How is that different from living on land in Jamaica, where the enslaved people had lived, 'cause you had lived in places that were known for slavery?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wear my hair in all kinds of ways, Terry - however I feel. Like, today it's blown out. Last week it was, you know, just natural. Three months ago it was in braids. I love having the freedom to kind "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 55, "text": "I imagine being in largely white spaces was a completely different experience for you, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. But, you know, the land - like, my sea village belongs to us. And in the town squares in Jamaica, our statues are of the enslaved who led rebellions, OK? So we have the abolitionists and the reb"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 56, "text": "Let's take another short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Safiya Sinclair. Her new memoir is called \"How To Say Babylon.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. You know, even after I - you know, I went - I did my undergrad at Bennington. But there was something about going to Charlottesville and living in Virginia where a lot of the people there "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 57, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Safiya Sinclair. Her new memoir, \"How To Say Babylon,\" is about being raised in Montego Bay, Jamaica, in a Rastafari family. How does reggae music in America sound to you now? And when you see somebody wearing dreadlocks, how does that look to you, coming from the perspective of your own life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. You know, even after I - you know, I went - I did my undergrad at Bennington. But there was something about going to Charlottesville and living in Virginia where a lot of the people there "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 58, "text": "What's your relationship like with your father now? Do you have a relationship?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I always kind of look at it with an amusement or amused curiosity. You know, being from Jamaica, everybody wants to tell me their sort of story that they know about Jamaica and what - you know, when t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 59, "text": "Given that you grew up in a family where your father thought he was God and acted like he was God and he treated you and the rest of your family like he was God - but you had, you know, a loving mother who supported you - do you want to have children, or do you already have children? I always wonder how a family where the father is controlling and abusive leaves people feeling about having children of their own. I've seen it happen both ways, that people really want to have children and raise them differently, or that people just don't want to deal with it or are even afraid to deal with being a parent.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, we do have a relationship. We have a respectful relationship, a cordial relationship."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 60, "text": "Well, Safiya Sinclair, I love your memoir, and I'm so glad you wrote it. And I'm glad you have a life that you've chosen to live...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do want to have children, yes. Having a family is important to me. And, you know, I wrote this book, and I dedicated it to my sisters, to my niece and to she who comes next. And one of the reasons t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 61, "text": "...And have, you know, freedom within that life to the extent that we have freedom in life. So thank you so much for this conversation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-13", "guest": "Safiya Sinclair", "title": "Poet Safiya Sinclair reflects on her Rastafari roots and how she cut herself free", "question_index": 62, "text": "I really appreciate it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-23", "guest": "Phil Donahue", "title": "Remembering Phil Donahue, the pioneering king of daytime talk shows", "question_index": 0, "text": "There are other conventions that you violated, too, like turning the show over to issues instead of just doing fashion shows and dieting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first of all, I'd like you to believe that I was brilliant enough to sit down and decide to do all these things. Our show, like life itself, evolved. I replaced a variety show in Dayton, Ohio, i"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-23", "guest": "Phil Donahue", "title": "Remembering Phil Donahue, the pioneering king of daytime talk shows", "question_index": 1, "text": "Were you ever at all disappointed that you were going to be on in the morning, knowing that the morning audience is always called the housewife audience?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. That, too, was a matter of survival. We - since our show came from Dayton, Ohio, we did not have the stars that we were accustomed to seeing on talk shows available to us. So - and we had five "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-23", "guest": "Phil Donahue", "title": "Remembering Phil Donahue, the pioneering king of daytime talk shows", "question_index": 2, "text": "Well, what does that mean in broadcasting terms, when they say it's the housewives who listen? What does that mean to broadcasters or broadcasting executives?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that stereotype existed. The prejudice continued, and, I think, continues today, although I don't think it's as widespread - and nor is it as powerful as it once was."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-23", "guest": "Phil Donahue", "title": "Remembering Phil Donahue, the pioneering king of daytime talk shows", "question_index": 3, "text": "Were you advised not to do that, though? Were you told, look, Phil, wise up? You know, they don't want to hear about issues. You got to do celebrities and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think, first of all, it means a woman with hair curlers, perhaps sitting under a hairdryer and reading a movie magazine. It also means a very important marketing target, a person who buys everything"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-23", "guest": "Phil Donahue", "title": "Remembering Phil Donahue, the pioneering king of daytime talk shows", "question_index": 4, "text": "...Cosmetics.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-23", "guest": "Phil Donahue", "title": "Remembering Phil Donahue, the pioneering king of daytime talk shows", "question_index": 5, "text": "You hadn't really considered much about feminism in 1967, when you started doing the show. Looking back now, when you look at your early days of hosting and compare it to your way of doing it now, do you think that you were doing anything then that you'd now think of as being patronizing or chauvinistic?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1985 interview with Phil Donahue, who hosted a popular and influential TV talk show for decades. He died Sunday at age 88."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-23", "guest": "Phil Donahue", "title": "Remembering Phil Donahue, the pioneering king of daytime talk shows", "question_index": 6, "text": "You're sometimes called TV's leading feminist or morning TV's only feminist or things like that. And I wonder if you have any ideas about why women on TV don't seem to be able to identify themselves as feminist. Sometimes, I think that for a woman to identify herself as a feminist who's in broadcasting, it's seen as something that might compromise her professionalism.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm sure that I did. I was raised in a - pardon my voice. I've got a crick, and it'll go away in a moment. I was raised in a world where men led, and women served. All of the people in my childhood wh"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-23", "guest": "Phil Donahue", "title": "Remembering Phil Donahue, the pioneering king of daytime talk shows", "question_index": 7, "text": "You've written in your autobiography a couple of years ago about how during your first marriage, you know, you were much more conventional in your attitude towards gender. And I sometimes think about how your first wife must feel now hearing all this talk about Phil Donahue, Mr. Feminist, when she was married to, you know, pre-feminist Phil Donahue and saw...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I suppose you could say I've never thought about it. Your question provokes the possibility that it is easier for a male to be a feminist than a woman. You get - at least you get the possibility that "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-23", "guest": "Phil Donahue", "title": "Remembering Phil Donahue, the pioneering king of daytime talk shows", "question_index": 8, "text": "...The earlier side of you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-23", "guest": "Phil Donahue", "title": "Remembering Phil Donahue, the pioneering king of daytime talk shows", "question_index": 9, "text": "There have been local stations that have blacked out some of your programs, either portions of it or they've played a rerun instead of carrying...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think she probably feels - I think it's a painful thing for her. I made it clear who I was and who I wasn't in my autobiography. It'd be better if someone else said this, but I think it's a reasonab"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-23", "guest": "Phil Donahue", "title": "Remembering Phil Donahue, the pioneering king of daytime talk shows", "question_index": 10, "text": "...The regular show. And I guess some of the subjects have been showing an abortion, showing a birth. Do you approve of them doing it? Do you think that that's - well, obviously, you don't. But do you think it's an example of, you know, democracy in action or the opposite?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-23", "guest": "Gena Rowlands", "title": "Remembering pioneering film star Gena Rowlands", "question_index": 0, "text": "\"Gloria\" was, in a way, a really out-of-character film for you. It's an action film, in a way, and, you know, you're pretty handy with a gun in the film.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That isn't the last time in the film she opens fire on the mobsters and gets away with it, by the way. Terry talked with Gena Rowlands in 1996."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-23", "guest": "Gena Rowlands", "title": "Remembering pioneering film star Gena Rowlands", "question_index": 1, "text": "Not your typical role. Did you enjoy that change of pace?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-23", "guest": "Gena Rowlands", "title": "Remembering pioneering film star Gena Rowlands", "question_index": 2, "text": "While being very motherly at the same time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I loved it. It was such a fantasy. I mean, here I am, and I'm going to take on the whole Mafia and beat them. It's just sort of an incredible power trip."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-23", "guest": "Gena Rowlands", "title": "Remembering pioneering film star Gena Rowlands", "question_index": 3, "text": "\"A Woman Under The Influence,\" directed by your late husband, John Cassavetes - you played a woman married to a character played by Peter Falk. And you're having, like, a nervous breakdown, and you just, like, unravel more and more as the movie goes on. Had you seen somebody going through that before taking on the role, somebody who you could think about while doing the movie?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, while being very motherly at that time, but it was - I remember it was so strange, carrying that gun at first, and then after a while, 'cause I always carried it in my purse so I could shoot thro"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-23", "guest": "Gena Rowlands", "title": "Remembering pioneering film star Gena Rowlands", "question_index": 4, "text": "You and your late husband, John Cassavetes, were making independent films before, I think, there was even a name for it. I mean...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not one person. You know, I wasn't thinking of one person. A part is like reading a detective story. You don't write it. You don't start it in the middle. You interpret it, and very often, you find th"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-23", "guest": "Gena Rowlands", "title": "Remembering pioneering film star Gena Rowlands", "question_index": 5, "text": "You were really pioneers of that in the movie industry. Why did you start? Why did you start finding your own little niche away from the larger industry?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-23", "guest": "Gena Rowlands", "title": "Remembering pioneering film star Gena Rowlands", "question_index": 6, "text": "A glamorous romance.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, of course, as you say, you don't think of yourself as a pioneer, or even you don't think of yourself in any particular way. It's just that you want to express a different kind of story, a differ"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-23", "guest": "Gena Rowlands", "title": "Remembering pioneering film star Gena Rowlands", "question_index": 7, "text": "Could you describe a little bit about what the guidelines for improvisation were within the films that you made with John Cassavetes? How much improvisation was there? What were the parameters for that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Escape - yeah, escape film. But it's not that we wanted them to stop doing that kind of film. We just felt that there was a lot of room for a lot of kinds of film."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-23", "guest": "Gena Rowlands", "title": "Remembering pioneering film star Gena Rowlands", "question_index": 8, "text": "And so even the parts that were improvised - by the time you did the final take, it had been scripted based on the improvisation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The first film that he made, \"Shadows,\" was entirely improvised. I wasn't in that. And so then he did develop a reputation from that as doing everything improvisation. But actually, after that, he alw"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-23", "guest": "Gena Rowlands", "title": "Remembering pioneering film star Gena Rowlands", "question_index": 9, "text": "Your father, I believe, was a state senator when you were growing up. Do I have that right?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1996 interview with actress Gena Rowlands. She was best known for her independent film collaborations with her director husband, John Cassavetes. She went "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-23", "guest": "Gena Rowlands", "title": "Remembering pioneering film star Gena Rowlands", "question_index": 10, "text": "You know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-23", "guest": "Gena Rowlands", "title": "Remembering pioneering film star Gena Rowlands", "question_index": 11, "text": "In Wisconsin - and this was U.S. Senate. Oh, state senator.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In Wisconsin."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-23", "guest": "Gena Rowlands", "title": "Remembering pioneering film star Gena Rowlands", "question_index": 12, "text": "Right - in a state Senate.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-23", "guest": "Gena Rowlands", "title": "Remembering pioneering film star Gena Rowlands", "question_index": 13, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A state Senate..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-23", "guest": "Gena Rowlands", "title": "Remembering pioneering film star Gena Rowlands", "question_index": 14, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Progressive Party, which..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-23", "guest": "Gena Rowlands", "title": "Remembering pioneering film star Gena Rowlands", "question_index": 15, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Doesn't exist anymore."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-23", "guest": "Gena Rowlands", "title": "Remembering pioneering film star Gena Rowlands", "question_index": 16, "text": "Did you ever have to be the model daughter while your father was in politics? Or is that also too far in the past to remember?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a La Follette party."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-23", "guest": "Gena Rowlands", "title": "Remembering pioneering film star Gena Rowlands", "question_index": 17, "text": "What were you sick with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was a - I was not a hard child because I was a sick child. I was an invalid when I was little. And so, you know, I wasn't much of a handful. I was lying around, looking pale and reading books "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-23", "guest": "Gena Rowlands", "title": "Remembering pioneering film star Gena Rowlands", "question_index": 18, "text": "Were you very unhappy during the period that you were sick?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't - some weird kidney disease. And then that went into double pneumonia. And then that went into something. I think - what I really think is I - my immune system probably was just not very devel"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-23", "guest": "Gena Rowlands", "title": "Remembering pioneering film star Gena Rowlands", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I remember one time, I wouldn't eat carrots. I wouldn't eat anything yellow. So she cut a carrot into the shape of a goldfish..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-23", "guest": "Gena Rowlands", "title": "Remembering pioneering film star Gena Rowlands", "question_index": 20, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know? But they would go to the most extraordinary kind of creative lengths..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-23", "guest": "Gena Rowlands", "title": "Remembering pioneering film star Gena Rowlands", "question_index": 21, "text": "Oh, that sounds wonderful.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...To do these things for me. I really had a pretty happy childhood."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-23", "guest": "Gena Rowlands", "title": "Remembering pioneering film star Gena Rowlands", "question_index": 22, "text": "Did you write for comic books before acting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-23", "guest": "Gena Rowlands", "title": "Remembering pioneering film star Gena Rowlands", "question_index": 23, "text": "These were, like, action comics with a moral message.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wrote for a long time, too, about a year or so."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-23", "guest": "Gena Rowlands", "title": "Remembering pioneering film star Gena Rowlands", "question_index": 24, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I always, of course, gave them an uplifting ending..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-23", "guest": "Gena Rowlands", "title": "Remembering pioneering film star Gena Rowlands", "question_index": 25, "text": "And when did you get seriously interested in acting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...A sudden conversion."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-23", "guest": "Gena Rowlands", "title": "Remembering pioneering film star Gena Rowlands", "question_index": 26, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I was about 14. I was living in Virginia, and I won a scholarship to a local repertory theater in Washington, D.C. - Arlington's, you know, just outside of D.C. And so I - it was a wonderful, won"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-23", "guest": "Gena Rowlands", "title": "Remembering pioneering film star Gena Rowlands", "question_index": 27, "text": "Gena Rowlands, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They had an open mind and a marvelous, marvelous teacher. And I was the young one. They - most of the guys were in their 20s. And it was serious. We all took it very seriously and worked very hard for"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today classic films and movie icons - from now through Labor Day, we're featuring a series of interviews from our archive with Steven Spielberg, Meryl Streep, Samuel L. Jackson, Dennis Hopper, Clint Eastwood, Jodie Foster, Molly Ringwald and more. Later on today's show, we'll hear my interview with Robert Duvall, who played the Corleone family lawyer Tom Hagen in \"The Godfather\" movies and the macho, surfing-obsessed Colonel Kilgore in \"Apocalypse Now.\" We'll start with a British actor who was one of the most distinctive voices in movies, Michael Caine. But before we hear his voice, we'll hear from two people imitating his voice. Here's Steve Coogan and Rob Brydon in their 2010 movie \"The Trip,\" competing over who could do the best Michael Caine impression.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 1, "text": "According to IMDB, Michael Caine has been in over 170 films. He became famous in the '60s in movies like \"Alfie,\" playing a playboy, and \"The Ipcress File\" as a crook turned secret agent. He won Oscars for his performances in \"Hannah And Her Sisters\" and \"The Cider House Rules\" and starred in \"Dirty Rotten Scoundrels,\" \"Mona Lisa,\" \"Educating Rita,\" \"Dressed To Kill,\" and was Batman's butler in the \"Dark Knight\" films. Caine retired from acting last year at the age of 90. I spoke with him in 1992 after the publication of his autobiography, \"What's It All About?\" He wrote about his birth in the charity ward of a hospital, coming of age in a working-class neighborhood and his rise as a movie star. Caine has said that an actor's eyes are his most important asset. An actor's voice is the second most important asset. I asked Caine how he realized his own voice was an asset.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As himself) Right. This is how Michael Caine speaks. (Impersonating Michael Caine) Michael Caine speaks to his nose like that. He gets very, very specific. It's very like that. When it gets loudly, i"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 2, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I realized that when I first went into the theater, my natural voice - having a cockney accent for a start was difficult. But also, it's where the voice is placed, and cockneys naturally talk - "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 3, "text": "Absolutely. Absolutely. Now, when you decided to work on your accent, what did you do to work on it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He talks like that, and his - and the trick was to bring my voice down to the diaphragm, if you can imagine. If it's right up here in the throat - and then they bring it down a little bit further, lik"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I didn't do anything really because I went to - into repertory, and - which means that I'd used to do a play a week for 50 weeks a year, and so I was always playing someone different. And in Eng"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 5, "text": "But did your Cockney accent stand in your way at all when you were first starting to make movies? - 'cause - well, also 'cause England has a much more rigid class system...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I keep getting it wrong. But I mean, it was deliberate. But also, I very quickly realized that it wasn't the rhythm of the voice that worried the Americans. It was the speed. The British speak very"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 6, "text": "...In a way than America does, although we certainly have a class system here.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 7, "text": "Now, in the movie \"Dirty Rotten Scoundrels,\" which was made just a few years ago in the States, you and Steve Martin starred, and you were this really kind of upper-class elegant womanizer who came onto wealthy women and scammed them and took their money, whereas Steve Martin was a real kind of nickel-and- dime scam artist out for the same thing, wealthy women. And you taught him how to really do the more aristocratic version of it. What kind of accent did you use for that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, the - you have a class system here, but you can't tell it by people's accents. In England, you can - I can listen to a person, and I'll tell you how much his house costs, how much he earns"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 8, "text": "We're listening to my 1992 interview with actor Michael Caine. We'll hear more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That would be the British upper-middle-class accent. It was always the people - the upper middle class usually have the pretensions of the aristocrat without the class and also the pretensions of the "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to our classic films and movie icon series and continue my 1992 interview with British actor Michael Caine.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That would be the British upper-middle-class accent. It was always the people - the upper middle class usually have the pretensions of the aristocrat without the class and also the pretensions of the "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 10, "text": "Now, another great role that I have to ask you about your voice in was in \"Mona Lisa,\" in which you played a crime boss, a gangster...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That would be the British upper-middle-class accent. It was always the people - the upper middle class usually have the pretensions of the aristocrat without the class and also the pretensions of the "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 11, "text": "...Who - and Bob Hoskins played somebody who is kind of under you in there. And you were really intimidating him in your scenes in the film. It's a fantastic performance by you. Can you talk about how you used your voice in that? - because you needed to use it in a way that showed real authority and the willingness to intimidate and, if necessary, hurt somebody.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 12, "text": "Now, when you say you're in a position of power and authority, you don't move a lot.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But it's one of those things of just flattening the voice out. The voice just flattens right out, no matter what you say. It just flattens, flattens."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 13, "text": "That means you don't blink a lot, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 14, "text": "That's a good point.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Without blinking. But if you look in the mirror yourself, look in the mirror yourself, and just stare and start saying things to yourself, you'll see how powerful it is. And if you just blink once "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well, how do you learn to not blink? It's hard to not blink. Your eyes start to hurt. You can do it for a little bit, but after a while, it's a real strain.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You just walk around. I walked around all my life - when I was a young lad - I wrote about this in the book. When I was a young lad, I found a book in the public library, how to teach yourself film ac"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I walked around this sort of working class district of London, which was used to some very rough people, you know, without blinking. And I look like a sort of early serial killer."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 18, "text": "Here's what I'm wondering, you know, since you learned obviously by making movies, how did you pick up everything that you know now about how to look into a camera or like, where to look when the cameras looking at you? Did you pick that up over years after watching yourself and watching yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm sure I frightened the life out of people 'cause I used to have long conversations with people and never blink. And I would watch people getting hypnotized. And they would walk away from a quite si"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 19, "text": "Now, what about where to look when the camera is looking at you? I mean, you really learned how to work...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And no, it's - film is listening, reaction, and behavior. That's what film acting is. Shouldn't be called film acting at all because it's not acting. It's something entirely - acting is what you do "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 20, "text": "...In front of a camera, and if you didn't spend a lot of time watching yourself, how did you learn that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 21, "text": "How did you learn that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I learned by watching where the camera was. I mean, for instance, you always - if you're going to - the thing is, if you're going to play a part, you're playing a part with another actor and you l"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 22, "text": "Early in your career, Alfred Hitchcock offered you a role as a sadistic killer in \"Frenzy.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I figured it out. I figured it out, how to do it. I figured it out myself, actually. I figured out a lot of stuff myself because you get a feeling in movies when you play someone, the actor should dis"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 23, "text": "But you turned that down because - why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 24, "text": "Because you turned him down.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because he was based on - I knew who he was based on. He was based on Neville Heath, who was an extraordinarily early, extraordinarily sadistic British woman killer. And I wouldn't play it. I didn't -"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 25, "text": "And speaking very slowly too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he never - I knew him quite well 'cause he comes from the same part of London as I do, and I knew him quite well. I mean, I wasn't a close friend or anything, and I'd never been to his home, but"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 26, "text": "We're listening to my 1992 interview with Michael Caine. After a break, we'll hear more of that interview and feature my 1996 interview with Robert Duval as we continue our classic films and movie icon series. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Hitchcock was a terribly powerful person. So everybody listened and waited for him to say anything he liked, except for me. I said, I don't want to do the part, and he never spoke to me again."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 27, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with British actor Michael Caine in 1992, after the publication of his autobiography. His career has spanned decades. And depending on your age, you may know him best from his '60s films like \"Alfie\" and \"The Ipcress File\" or the \"Dark Knight\" Batman films. In this part of our interview, we talked about his early years.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Hitchcock was a terribly powerful person. So everybody listened and waited for him to say anything he liked, except for me. I said, I don't want to do the part, and he never spoke to me again."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 28, "text": "And so that left you with a different kind of role model.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I first started to act when I was around 10 in school plays. But of course, I was the first generation, I imagine, at my age - I'm 59. I was about the first generation of actors who the first actors t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 29, "text": "So your ultimate ambition wasn't necessarily to do \"Hamlet.\" It might've been to do crime films or.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Left me with a entirely different role model of how to act and why I wanted to act and what I wanted to act in. I never went - I'd been an amateur actor in theatrical plays in little youth clubs and a"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 30, "text": "I guess that helped, too, in terms of your class, because it would've been hard for you to aspire to be somebody who had this kind of upper-class accent and, you know, the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts kind of thing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I mean, my heroes were James Cagney and Humphrey Bogart and Spencer Tracy, not John Gielgud and Laurence Olivier, who were the big sort of theater stars when I grew up, in England."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 31, "text": "Now, you made 73 films in 30 years.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. And there was always a history, in any case - in American movies, you had working class heroes. You rarely had working class heroes in British movies. It was always about the aristocracy. "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 32, "text": "And as you say, some people have criticized you for not being discriminating enough in the movies that you chose to make.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 33, "text": "What has your criteria been for deciding what to make?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 34, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first of all, my criteria was, is nobody asked me to make anything for 30 years, so my first criteria was that they asked me at all."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 35, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know? And then there came - I then had to learn how to act in films. So I made as many films as possible as fast as possible in order to learn how to do it, because I'd never done any. I didn't ha"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 36, "text": "Well let's look at the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And these are all parts that great American stars, I'm sure, turned down and said, my audience will not allow me to do this."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 37, "text": "Since you've given so much thought to the placement of the camera and the difference between theater and film and so on, I want to ask you about doing love scenes in front of the camera. You don't like doing love scenes very much. That's certainly the impression I get from your book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And they quite rightfully did so. And so we are - the actors that I've mentioned, we are stars by default in America, in a funny way."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 38, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No because, you see; for a start, if you're a very good actor, you see, and you play a scene - I will play a murderer, you know? And my wife will see the picture, and she'll say, I thought that was br"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 39, "text": "You know, it strikes me you are a very close observer of other people's behavior. But doing a love scene, you'd be at something of a disadvantage because it's not like you've sat around watching a lot of couples make love. Do you know what I mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You see? So you can't win, you can't win because if you do it for real, if you're really a good actor, you really look as though you love the woman, you know? And it's very difficult for someone else "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 40, "text": "You could say, well, this kind of person makes love this way, and that kind of man makes love that way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 41, "text": "So you must have to use your imagination more to imagine your character in a romantic situation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 42, "text": "They imagine them on the telephone, which you've been able to witness...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Sure."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 43, "text": "Or imagine them at dinner, which you've been able to witness.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 44, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, with the love scenes. But I've been imagining love scenes since I was 10."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 45, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All sorts of different ones. So, I mean, I've got one for every occasion - whatever. I mean, I was always - I was very sort of oversexed (ph) when I was a little boy. And I saw love scenes on the scre"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 46, "text": "You've described yourself as a very un-neurotic person. Do you think that that's affected your approach to acting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, of course, right through my teens, I had all these imaginary love scenes worked out. And I managed to get them all out of my system on and off screen over the years."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 47, "text": "You still do that now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I have a very un-neurotic approach to acting. Basically, it's - my style of acting is like - most actors would hold up a picture and say, look at me. I get rid of all that baggage by holding up "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 48, "text": "One more thing. And this gets back to eyes, you know, how the eyes - you've said the eyes are the most important part of an actor.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, all the time, all the time. If I've been a success and you see a performance, even if you're a woman, you should say, how does he know that about me? How does he know I would've done that there?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 49, "text": "You were born with an eye problem called blephar...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 50, "text": "...Which puffs the eyelids?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 51, "text": "So did that make you self-conscious about your eyes? Did it make it any more difficult for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 52, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. In school, they used to call me snake eyes because I have - I sort of have eyes like a cobra. But when I grew up - and sometimes if you're very sleepy, you look like a cod. They used to call me "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 53, "text": "What else?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But when I got into the movies, it came out as kind of dreamy and sexy, you know, sleepy-looking. They said they could use makeup on them and sort of make them look slightly different. They put a bit "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 54, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was just thinking, when he said use the disadvantage, what that means is - I was rehearsing - use the difficulty, I mean. Use the difficulty, he used to say. I was rehearsing a play, and there"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 55, "text": "Oh, that's great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Which was a line for me for life. You know, always try and use the difficulty."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 56, "text": "On that note, I want to thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Rob Brydon", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Michael Caine", "question_index": 57, "text": "Michael Caine recorded in 1992. He retired from acting last year at the age of 90. We'll continue our classic films and movie icon series with a 1996 interview with Robert Duvall. He talked about his roles in \"The Godfather\" films and in \"Apocalypse Now.\" That's after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Celebrating movie icons:  Robert Duvall", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Next up on our classic films and movie icons series is an interview from our archive with Robert Duvall recorded in 1996. Duvall made his mark starring in epic movies and intimate dramas. In \"The Godfather\" films, he played the Corleone family lawyer Tom Hagen. In \"Apocalypse Now,\" he played the macho Colonel Kilgore. In \"The Great Santini,\" he was a rigid marine pilot who imposed a strict discipline on his family. In his Oscar-winning performance in \"Tender Mercies,\" he was a country music singer on the skids, living a quiet life with a widow and her son. He also starred in the Western miniseries \"Lonesome Dove.\" Here's Duvall in a famous scene from \"The Godfather.\" He's traveled to Hollywood to persuade a movie producer to give a starring role to Don Corleone's godson.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Celebrating movie icons:  Robert Duvall", "question_index": 1, "text": "It's interesting. You know, \"The Godfather\" films are such, like, operatic movies with, you know, people playing gangsters...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Tom Hagen) I have a special practice. I handle one client. Now you have my number. I'll wait for your call. By the way, I admire your pictures very much."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Celebrating movie icons:  Robert Duvall", "question_index": 2, "text": "...Who are given to grand displays of emotion and violence. And you're the one in the movie, the legal adviser, whose job is to advise to be discrete...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Celebrating movie icons:  Robert Duvall", "question_index": 3, "text": "...To tone everything down.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Celebrating movie icons:  Robert Duvall", "question_index": 4, "text": "So in a way, you're playing a very opposite type of personality than all the other personalities in the film.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Celebrating movie icons:  Robert Duvall", "question_index": 5, "text": "I agree.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, it was a pretty interesting character in that he was an adopted son plus this legal advisor. So therefore, as an actor and as a character, you really can't cross the line. You're kind of a"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Celebrating movie icons:  Robert Duvall", "question_index": 6, "text": "Do you have any favorite scenes in \"The Godfather\" films?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Francis was in top form, although, as you say, maybe a touch they romanticize the organized crime to a point. But it was such good filmmaking. You can excuse that."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Celebrating movie icons:  Robert Duvall", "question_index": 7, "text": "You worked with Francis Ford Coppola again on \"Apocalypse Now.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Tom Hagen) They shot Sonny on the causeway. He's dead."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Celebrating movie icons:  Robert Duvall", "question_index": 8, "text": "And in \"Apocalypse Now,\" you are Colonel Kilgore...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Celebrating movie icons:  Robert Duvall", "question_index": 9, "text": "...Famous for the line...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Celebrating movie icons:  Robert Duvall", "question_index": 10, "text": "That's the one.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I love the smell of napalm in the morning. Is that the one?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Celebrating movie icons:  Robert Duvall", "question_index": 11, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Smells like victory. Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Celebrating movie icons:  Robert Duvall", "question_index": 12, "text": "Did you get the script and say - well, first of all, was that line in the script? Or is that something that you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that was a wonderful line. People come up to me and quote it to me and say it like it's such an in thing between just me and them and like they're the only ones that ever thought of it. But that"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Celebrating movie icons:  Robert Duvall", "question_index": 13, "text": "Why did you want to play it a lot? This is another part that I'm sure your father was thinking, hope nobody thinks this is based on me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. No, that was in there. And I think the part was offered to somebody else, and they turned it down. And I said to Francis, I know the part's written for a bigger guy - real tall, big guy, rugged."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Celebrating movie icons:  Robert Duvall", "question_index": 14, "text": "So when you saw the line in the film, I love the smell of napalm in the morning, did you say to yourself, a classic line? People will be repeating this back to me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Bill Kilgore) I love the smell of napalm in the morning. That smell, you know, that gasoline smell - the whole hill smelled like victory."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Celebrating movie icons:  Robert Duvall", "question_index": 15, "text": "Did you do a lot of different line readings on that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I didn't think of that. I didn't think that - I didn't think of it that way. I wasn't sure. You know, I mean, sometimes you're not so aware of that, although you like lines like that."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Celebrating movie icons:  Robert Duvall", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The one that was predominant was Jimmy Keene, a friend of mine who played a small part in that from Buffalo. I made him call me Mr. Duvall for a year 'cause that was our relationship in the movie 'cau"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Celebrating movie icons:  Robert Duvall", "question_index": 17, "text": "Oh, really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My Brando - he couldn't believe I would do that, you know? So then he began doing Brando imitations. So then when Brando wanted $100,000 to do six lines of the censored stuff for the censored version "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Celebrating movie icons:  Robert Duvall", "question_index": 18, "text": "Hey. They could have saved a lot of trouble with Brando in \"Apocalypse Now,\" I guess.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So those imitations started in the Philippines, and Jimmy got - because of those imitations, blossomed into the guy that would do the censored version for Brando."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Celebrating movie icons:  Robert Duvall", "question_index": 19, "text": "We're listening to my 1996 interview with actor Robert Duvall. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I suppose. Yeah. Well, Jimmy was the guy that was there that told me all these wild stories after I left. See; I did the second half of my part first and then, six months later, came back into the fir"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Celebrating movie icons:  Robert Duvall", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 1996 interview with Robert Duvall as we continue our classic films and movie icon series. It must have been really different working with Coppola on \"The Godfather\" movies and working with him on \"Apocalypse Now.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I suppose. Yeah. Well, Jimmy was the guy that was there that told me all these wild stories after I left. See; I did the second half of my part first and then, six months later, came back into the fir"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Celebrating movie icons:  Robert Duvall", "question_index": 21, "text": "And that was in the late '60s.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, you see; I had worked with Francis in \"The Rain People,\" as I had said. And he was..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Celebrating movie icons:  Robert Duvall", "question_index": 22, "text": "When you were young, Brando was one of your heroes, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Kind of a moody guy. I didn't quite get a handle on Francis, but then I gained a tremendous amount of respect for him because on \"Godfather I,\" we started out, said, OK, it's Francis again. He's no"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Celebrating movie icons:  Robert Duvall", "question_index": 23, "text": "So what was it like to work with him when he was much older? He'd physically changed. It wasn't, I think, a particularly good period for him, especially during...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think so. I mean, he was quite a phenom. I mean, there were others, too, but he - and then you have you grow away from somebody's influence and find your own way."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Celebrating movie icons:  Robert Duvall", "question_index": 24, "text": "In \"The Godfather,\" but yeah. Right, right, right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no, in \"The Godfather,\" he was very - he was rather trim, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Celebrating movie icons:  Robert Duvall", "question_index": 25, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And when I first worked with him in, well, \"Apocalypse\" - yeah, I didn't really - I wasn't really there when he worked."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Celebrating movie icons:  Robert Duvall", "question_index": 26, "text": "So tell me. When you were young and getting started in acting, what were your expectations? What did you think would come of your career?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I worked with him first in \"The Chase,\" way back, and, you know, the first day he called me into his dressing room, and we talked about the part. I said, oh, to my wife, this is going to be great, we'"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Celebrating movie icons:  Robert Duvall", "question_index": 27, "text": "So, if you don't mind my asking, what did that terrible review say about you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, maybe I was innocent, and maybe innocence is not the same as naive, maybe it is. I always felt that somehow I would fit in. I went to New York feeling I would be a stage actor. I didn'"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Celebrating movie icons:  Robert Duvall", "question_index": 28, "text": "You still remember?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm going to tell you exactly what it said."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Celebrating movie icons:  Robert Duvall", "question_index": 29, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It said, Shaw has invented some impossible young men in his plays, but never one so revolting as the romantic young interest in this one. And the character is made even less palatable by Robert Duvall"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Celebrating movie icons:  Robert Duvall", "question_index": 30, "text": "Liberace?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And the other paper likened me to Liberace so I had to get off the..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Celebrating movie icons:  Robert Duvall", "question_index": 31, "text": "What was the connection to Liberace?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I had to get off the bus. I was physically ill."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Celebrating movie icons:  Robert Duvall", "question_index": 32, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. Maybe I played him a little effete. I don't know what it was. It was..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Celebrating movie icons:  Robert Duvall", "question_index": 33, "text": "Well, Robert Duvall, I want to thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a guy from the Actors' Studio. I don't know. He had us lying down doing sense memory before we were doing George Bernard Shaw. I said, we should be telling jokes not lying on the floor for sens"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Celebrating movie icons:  Robert Duvall", "question_index": 34, "text": "My interview with Robert Duvall was recorded in 1996. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we continue our classic films and movie icons series. We'll feature interviews from our archive with two actors who started as child stars - Jodie Foster and Molly Ringwald. Foster became famous for her 1976 films \"Freaky Friday\" and \"Taxi Driver.\" Recently, she starred in the latest season of \"True Detective\" and was nominated for an Oscar for her role in \"Nyad.\" Ringwald was in the sitcoms \"Diff'rent Strokes\" and \"The Facts Of Life\" and became famous for her roles in the teen films \"Sixteen Candles,\" \"The Breakfast Club\" and \"Pretty In Pink.\" Most recently, she was in \"Feud: Capote Vs. The Swans.\" I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you. I enjoyed it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-26", "guest": "Robert Duvall", "title": "Celebrating movie icons:  Robert Duvall", "question_index": 35, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi and Joe Wolfram. Special thanks to NPR+ producer Nick Anderson. Our digital media producers are Molly Seavy-Nesper and Sabrina Siewert. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you. I enjoyed it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Jodie Foster", "question_index": 0, "text": "When you were 12 1/2 and got the part in \"Taxi Driver,\" was your mother afraid of what you'd be exposed to playing a child prostitute?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. Jodie Foster has been in the public eye since she was 3 years old as a Coppertone girl on TV commercials. At 12, she was nominated for an Academy Award for her rol"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Jodie Foster", "question_index": 1, "text": "Well, how the heck did they figure that out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, first of all, I had been an actor since I was 3 years old, so I had a long body of experience. And my mom really took me to all sorts of movies and took me to R-rated movies whenever s"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Jodie Foster", "question_index": 2, "text": "I mean, what did they do to test your psychological health?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I really don't know."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Jodie Foster", "question_index": 3, "text": "Let me just play a scene from this film.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They asked me a lot of questions like, do you like Chinese food? You know, things like that. I have a very fond memory of my therapy session at 12. And it really was pretty boring."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Jodie Foster", "question_index": 4, "text": "In this film, you know, Travis Bickle, played by Robert De Niro, wants to rescue you from a life of prostitution. He's just kind of taken you as a cause. You know, you're a 12 1/2-year-old kid or a 13-year-old kid who's being sold by a pimp, played by Harvey Keitel. And so De Niro goes to Keitel and buys some time with you, not to have sex with you, but to convince you to let him rescue you from this life. So here you are in a room together for the first time. He wants to change your life. You want to give him his money's worth because he just bought some time with you. Let's hear an excerpt of that scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Jodie Foster", "question_index": 5, "text": "\"Taxi Driver\" is such an extraordinary movie. I mean, it's at the top of, or near the top of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Travis) Well, that's all right. I'm going to get you out of here."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Jodie Foster", "question_index": 6, "text": "...So many people's lists. And so many of us have seen it, you know, over and over again. I'm thinking, you know, at the age of 12 1/2, to work with Scorsese and De Niro...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Jodie Foster", "question_index": 7, "text": "...And Keitel, you know, gee", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Jodie Foster", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Jodie Foster", "question_index": 9, "text": "Oh, God, that's so amazing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It really changed my life. At that time, I had really - I had made many more movies than either one of them had."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Jodie Foster", "question_index": 10, "text": "If you remember, I'd love to hear some of the things he told you in those talks about acting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But I had played mostly - you know, people used to ask of me, you know, act naturally. Be yourself. Say that line just as you would say that line. And it just never occurred to me that being an acto"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Jodie Foster", "question_index": 11, "text": "My guest is Jodie Foster. I'm almost shocked that the Disney productions, that Disney studio, cast you in \"Freaky Friday\" - even though you had much more of a history with children's movies - after \"Taxi Driver.\" I can't believe", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I wish that he had had some kind of, you know, wonderful, miraculous things to say. But mostly he would take me to these little divey coffee shops in different parts of town, sometimes in Spanis"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Jodie Foster", "question_index": 12, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I wish that he had had some kind of, you know, wonderful, miraculous things to say. But mostly he would take me to these little divey coffee shops in different parts of town, sometimes in Spanis"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Jodie Foster", "question_index": 13, "text": "...That they wanted you in a Disney film, you know, because - yeah, go ahead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm so happy that they did."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Jodie Foster", "question_index": 14, "text": "In \"Freaky Friday,\" you're quite the tomboy. You play hockey. You're also wearing braces", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that tells you how loyal Disney was, you know, because I had made many movies for Disney before then. And it was a conscious choice by my mom. When she was ferreting out which film I would do next"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Jodie Foster", "question_index": 15, "text": ". Could you relate to this character? Was this character, like, foreign to you outside of movies? Because it's, like, the suburban tomboy schoolgirl, and it just seems like a life that was probably as far away as the life of Iris in \"Taxi Driver.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that tells you how loyal Disney was, you know, because I had made many movies for Disney before then. And it was a conscious choice by my mom. When she was ferreting out which film I would do next"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Jodie Foster", "question_index": 16, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, not really. I mean, I went to school. And I didn't wear braces, but I certainly played a lot of sports and I was kind of a tomboy. So I don't think it was as big a stretch as you might think."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Jodie Foster", "question_index": 17, "text": "One of your most popular films is \"Silence Of The Lambs,\" in which you play an FBI agent on the trail of a serial killer. No problems with that film in terms of the violence in it or just - I'm just wondering if it was, like, creepy for you to deal with that kind of material after the whole", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview with Jodie Foster. She won an Oscar for best actress for her role as FBI agent Clarice Starling in the 1991 film \"Silence Of The Lambs.\""}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Jodie Foster", "question_index": 18, "text": "affair.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview with Jodie Foster. She won an Oscar for best actress for her role as FBI agent Clarice Starling in the 1991 film \"Silence Of The Lambs.\""}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Jodie Foster", "question_index": 19, "text": "Let me play a short scene from \"Silence Of The Lambs,\" and you play an FBI agent who's searching for - trying to track down a serial killer. And as part of your search, you go visit Hannibal Lecter, who is the serial killer who killed and ate his victims. You're visiting him in prison, where he's serving life. And you think he'll have clues about this serial killer you're trying to track down. Hannibal Lecter is played by Anthony Hopkins. This is your first meeting with him, in which you're trying to get information from him. And he's both testing you and playing with you at the same time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I loved \"Silence Of The Lambs,\" and I certainly - I loved the book, and it was something that I pursued actively. Because I did feel that the perspective in the movie, the point of view of the f"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Jodie Foster", "question_index": 20, "text": "Jodie Foster, can you talk a little bit about working opposite Anthony Hopkins in these scenes with him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Clarice Starling) I'm only asking you to look at this, doctor. Either you will, or you won't."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Jodie Foster", "question_index": 21, "text": "Why was he scared of you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was kind of scared to death of him. The only time that I'd met him was at a rehearsal. And we'd started, you know, rehearsing right away. And, you know, he brought that voice out, and I kind of got "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Jodie Foster", "question_index": 22, "text": "Now, you're using a Southern accent. I'm not sure exactly which state it's supposed to be from.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess it was just probably the intensity of our characters playing opposite each other. You know, the - that dialogue in \"Silence Of The Lambs\" is something that you could do in a play for the rest "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Jodie Foster", "question_index": 23, "text": "So why was it felt that an accent was needed for the role.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She's originally from West Virginia but had been transplanted to Montana so has lost her accent slightly."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Jodie Foster", "question_index": 24, "text": "Any thoughts about your own voice? Is that something that you worked on at all or that directors worked on with you, or did it just kind of develop on its own?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was a choice of the director. It was also very much a big part of the novel. She's somebody who is from the South and is not from the tony family that others in the FBI have come from. She has ha"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Jodie Foster", "question_index": 25, "text": "That's right, unless you had to go to the studio every day, in which I don't think you'd want to be wearing your pajamas.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Nobody's ever worked on my voice. A lot of people made fun of me 'cause I had a deep voice my whole life. But no. No, no one's ever worked on my voice. However, I have had a fantasy about doing ra"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Anthony Hopkins", "question_index": 0, "text": "Describe what you did with your voice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I was assured that the part was on offer to me, I started to work on it and simply to learn the lines and think about it. And it was such a well-written part, and the story was so compelling that"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Anthony Hopkins", "question_index": 1, "text": "You know, there's something both very effete, very scary and very purring...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was one of the - there's one line which, I think, is seen on the trailers, and I said, I'll help you catch him, Clarice. I didn't know what it was. It was just a kind of tone. And there's a s"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Anthony Hopkins", "question_index": 2, "text": "...About the voice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Anthony Hopkins", "question_index": 3, "text": "It's a purr.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Well..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Anthony Hopkins", "question_index": 4, "text": "Now, I don't know if this is connected to the control you see the characters having, but you rarely blink in the movie. I mean, the eyes have a fixed stare, and they're wide open all the time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The thing is if you're playing an evil character, if you're playing somebody who's mad or evil - well, let's just take the first part. If you're playing somebody who's mad, the thing is not to play hi"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Anthony Hopkins", "question_index": 5, "text": "One of which you've played.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Well, I don't know. I didn't analyze much about the part. I mean, I just had a hunch on how to play him. First of all, when you're playing a character like this, you have to like him. The actor h"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Anthony Hopkins", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Anthony Hopkins", "question_index": 7, "text": "You've said that you really liked working with Jonathan Demme. Is there any kind of direction that he gave you that is different from what you're used to getting? Is there something different about the style that he works in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. And if you're just joining us, we're listening to Terry's 1991 interview with Anthony Hopkins."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Anthony Hopkins", "question_index": 8, "text": "Are those the ideas that you mentioned?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the great hallmark for me, anyway, of the great sort of positive for me is when directors - it's not that they exactly leave you alone, but what they do, they let you develop the character. An"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Anthony Hopkins", "question_index": 9, "text": "Somebody waiting for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no, it was just - he asked me, he said, how do you feel about what - how would you like to first be seen, you know, when we - the film spends a lot of time talking about Lecter before they see h"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Anthony Hopkins", "question_index": 10, "text": "You know, I've seen several articles in which you've been compared to Richard Burton, who, like you, is from Wales. Is that why you're compared, because you're both from the same place?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Somebody waiting for me in the corner or at the top of the stairs or - I used to have a dream. I had opened the door when I was a child. There would be banging on the front door of the house in the da"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Anthony Hopkins", "question_index": 11, "text": "Oh, so did he mean - did he have, like, significance to you when you were coming of age, wanting to act?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we're from the same town."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Anthony Hopkins", "question_index": 12, "text": "Another one of those highly educated parts, I'll point out", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. He represented to me freedom because I couldn't function in school. I mean, I - well, I'm making it sound terrible, actually. I mean, I wasn't - it wasn't that bad, but, I mean, I was a bit lonel"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Anthony Hopkins", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. He represented to me freedom because I couldn't function in school. I mean, I - well, I'm making it sound terrible, actually. I mean, I wasn't - it wasn't that bad, but, I mean, I was a bit lonel"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Anthony Hopkins", "question_index": 14, "text": "You were playing the psychiatrist.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, he was. He was."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Anthony Hopkins", "question_index": 15, "text": "I want to thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. But it's extraordinary meeting Richard in those days because we - the day I was sitting in the same dressing room, and he said, why haven't we ever worked before? Why haven't we ever worked toget"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today, we continue our series Classic Films and Movie Icons and hear interviews from our archive with Meryl Streep and Sidney Poitier. I spoke with Streep in 2012 when she was nominated for an Oscar for her portrayal of British Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher in the film \"The Iron Lady.\" She won. She'd previously won for her performances in \"Kramer Vs. Kramer\" and \"Sophie's Choice.\" She holds the record for the most Oscar nominations - a total of 21. One of the things she's known for is her uncanny ability to do accents. Let's start by hearing how she sounds as Margaret Thatcher. The film begins after Thatcher has lost her husband and is suffering from dementia. She's imagining that her husband is still with her and talking to her. In this scene, Streep portrays Thatcher after she's become the first woman to lead the Conservative Party. She's speaking before the House of Commons.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 1, "text": "Margaret Thatcher later took voice lessons from a drama coach to help her sound more authoritative. Here's Streep as Thatcher after those lessons, addressing Parliament about the war in the Falklands.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Margaret Thatcher) ...He may receive a valuable education in spite of himself."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 2, "text": "Meryl Streep, welcome to FRESH AIR. Thank you so much for being here. And congratulations...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Margaret Thatcher) ...Sure in the knowledge that though much is sacrificed, in the end, right will prevail over wrong."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 3, "text": "...On your Golden Globe and your Oscar nomination.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 4, "text": "Oh, wow. Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much for having me, Terry. I'm a huge fan."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 5, "text": "So we just heard you before and after Margaret Thatcher has voice lessons - voice lessons to teach her authority and power - so that you can speak more powerfully to the Parliament. Did she really have that kind of vocal training?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much for having me, Terry. I'm a huge fan."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 6, "text": "So can you talk a little bit about what you think she learned with those vocal lessons and how you transformed your voice as her after she really learned her way around as a public figure and had the advantage of those voice lessons?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She did. My memory is a little cloudy, but I remember reading that Laurence Olivier had something to do with arranging for her to have - he demurred. He said he wouldn't care to do it himself, but he "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 7, "text": "So how did you change your voice for the before and after, for the more confident and experienced Margaret Thatcher versus the early Margaret Thatcher?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that voice lessons really just bring out a voice that you already possess. So she already had - whatever the sort of stentorian tones that she acquired over time. They were all lying in "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 8, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had evidence of both voices, you know, from the public record, so I could listen to them. And it's sort of my fun to sing along with records and imitate people that are on the telephone that h"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 9, "text": "So you need a lot of breath to keep talking like that. Did you have it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And she also had a sort of a way, like a railroad train of going - (inhaling) - (impersonating Margaret Thatcher) taking a breath and starting quite quietly and making a point in a way that you don't "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 10, "text": "I think it's interesting when you're doing the voice of a real person, or I suppose if you're learning an accent, too, you think of it as singing along with a record. So is that what you do, like, you play Margaret Thatcher giving a speech, and you do the equivalent of singing along with it, you give the speech as you're listening to it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I did need a lot of breath. I had - I needed much more breath than I have. After all my expensive drama school training, I couldn't keep up with her."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 11, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I say that because that's my way in in the very beginning..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 12, "text": "We're listening to my 2012 interview with Meryl Streep. We'll hear more of it after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was just - oh, we can't know what we mean to each other. You know, artists - you can't know - you can't know that, but she was really important."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 2012 interview with Meryl Streep as we continue our series Classic Films and Movie Icons.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was just - oh, we can't know what we mean to each other. You know, artists - you can't know - you can't know that, but she was really important."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 14, "text": "I have another Margaret Thatcher question for you because you age several decades through the course of the film.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was just - oh, we can't know what we mean to each other. You know, artists - you can't know - you can't know that, but she was really important."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 15, "text": "Yeah. So you had to wear, you know, like, a prosthetic older person's neck, and your face has a lot of makeup or something because, you know, you age four decades. So is it harder to be expressive when you're underneath something, you know, either a lot of makeup or a prosthetic or whatever?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Four."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 16, "text": "I mean, you manage to be very expressive, but I'm wondering if it's, you know, more difficult.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It can be, but I didn't want it to be. So I've worked for 35 years with a master artist - makeup artist and hairdresser. That's Roy Helland, and he's done everything - bleached my eyebrows for - and h"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 18, "text": "And when you're saying, less, less - I want less - is that partly so that you can move your face and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know, he got me ready for the Golden Globes. And he understands the job and changing the outside to get at something inside. So in conjunction with this British prosthetics designer, Mark Couli"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 19, "text": "...And be expressive? Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I can be free."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 20, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's all about being free and having - so I can look in the mirror and see me, not stuff. And it all has to do with - you know, it's not about the audience. It's all about fooling the other actors int"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 21, "text": "Gee, I never thought of it that way - that you have to convince the other actors that you're Margaret Thatcher.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Or love me the way they're supposed to or find, you know, an old face but see the young one underneath, which is Jim Broadbent's task as Denis Thatcher, then I'm lost. I don't have anything to go o"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 22, "text": "You know, I hear a certain similarity between your voice in \"The Iron Lady\" as Margaret Thatcher and your voice in \"Julie & Julia\" as Julia Child. It almost strikes me as if - and I never thought about this till hearing you in both those films - that if Margaret Thatcher kind of drank too much...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's the whole deal - the whole deal."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 23, "text": "...And started being, like, surprised and delighted about how her, like, food concoction was behaving, that she might sound like Julia Child. What do you think?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's the whole deal - the whole deal."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 24, "text": "Yeah", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they had a similar flutiness in - especially in the younger - Julia Child had (impersonating Julia Child) a flutiness..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 25, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they had a similar flutiness in - especially in the younger - Julia Child had (impersonating Julia Child) a flutiness..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 26, "text": "Let me play a little bit of you as Julia Child in \"Julie & Julia.\" And this is a scene when you're on TV early in your TV career, and you're making some kind of, like, mashed-potato pancake concoction that you're about to flip, and it's not - it kind of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "New Jersey."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 27, "text": "Doesn't go well. It kind of splatters in the air, and half of it lands on the stove instead of in the pan. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Doesn't go well."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 28, "text": "...Let's hear a little bit of that. And this scene alternates with you on TV and with Julie watching you on TV.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 29, "text": "Yeah. Amy Adams is Julie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Amy Adams, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 30, "text": "You know, I love that, 'cause you talk about studying someone's voice as if it's music, and she has such a musical voice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Julia Child) I've just got to practice the piano. I'm Julia Child. Bon appetit."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 31, "text": "And, you know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She does."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 32, "text": "Yeah, I was going to say that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And she has no breath."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 33, "text": "Exactly. It sounds like she's been running up a hill.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 34, "text": "Me neither, honestly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She always sounds like that. I feel like that when I'm in the kitchen. Don't you? Well, I'm not a very good cook, but..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 35, "text": "I believe that's why...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 36, "text": "...Delis exist, so that I don't have to cook", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I find myself..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 37, "text": ", but...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I find myself..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 38, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I got better after this, and my entire family really did appreciate it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 39, "text": "You know, I compared...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", but this one had a bonus attached. But, yeah..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 40, "text": "...I compared her voice and Thatcher's voice before, but breath-wise, they're the opposite, 'cause she's almost, like, gasping for air.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...She had no breath."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 41, "text": "And Thatcher has this, like, endlessly long breath.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 42, "text": "OK, so here's a story I read, which I assume is true, but you can tell me if it actually happened", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she's so alive, Julia Child, and Margaret is so designed. She's so intent upon making her point. That's the most important thing, is that she win the argument, and there is nothing that stands i"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 43, "text": ", that in - for the 1976 Dino De Laurentiis remake of \"King Kong,\" you auditioned for Dino De Laurentiis and his son...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she's so alive, Julia Child, and Margaret is so designed. She's so intent upon making her point. That's the most important thing, is that she win the argument, and there is nothing that stands i"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 44, "text": "...Who were Italian.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 45, "text": "And Dino De Laurentiis said in Italian - what did he say?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 46, "text": "This being you", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Speaking Italian). I don't know. I can't speak Italian anymore, 'cause I'm so old and forgetful, but he said something like, but this is so ugly. Why do you bring me this?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 47, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Speaking Italian). I don't know. I can't speak Italian anymore, 'cause I'm so old and forgetful, but he said something like, but this is so ugly. Why do you bring me this?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 48, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 49, "text": "So a very interesting story", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", this is it. This is what you get, sort of. And I left. I mean, I was very upset, but I didn't show it. Yes, it's a true story."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 50, "text": ", 'cause you were being told early in your career, basically, that you're not beautiful.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", this is it. This is what you get, sort of. And I left. I mean, I was very upset, but I didn't show it. Yes, it's a true story."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 51, "text": "You're not qualified - your face is not qualified for this role. And you're also...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 52, "text": "And body.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Face and body, I believe."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 53, "text": "But then you're also making the decision to let them know that you understand what they said. They were intentionally speaking in Italian so that you wouldn't understand them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 54, "text": "But you did understand them. You let them know you understood them, and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Right, right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 55, "text": "Did you worry that you were basically - I mean, you hadn't been in any movies yet", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because they did - they think actresses are stupid. That was the other thing that - I mean, not they, 'cause I don't think his son was that way. His son was my champion. I mean, he was the reason I wa"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 56, "text": ", so did you worry that word would spread about you that you were...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because they did - they think actresses are stupid. That was the other thing that - I mean, not they, 'cause I don't think his son was that way. His son was my champion. I mean, he was the reason I wa"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 57, "text": "...That you spoke back to directors? Yeah, that you were a real pain...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A pain in the a**?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 58, "text": "...And that you were - yeah, that you were a problem, so, like, avoid her.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 59, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", yeah, that is the package, you know, and..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 60, "text": "How much did you want it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I was not probably suited to that role either. I mean, that was the truth."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 61, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded with Meryl Streep in 2012. We'll hear more of that interview, and hear my 2000 interview with Sidney Poitier, after a break, as we continue our series, Classic Films and Movie Icons. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not much. I mean, I did want a break, but I didn't think I would be good in it. Honestly, I didn't. It represented something that, I don't know, I wasn't drawn to. So I suppose it was easier to be obs"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 62, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my 2012 interview with Meryl Streep, one of the movie icons we're featuring this week on our end-of-summer series.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not much. I mean, I did want a break, but I didn't think I would be good in it. Honestly, I didn't. It represented something that, I don't know, I wasn't drawn to. So I suppose it was easier to be obs"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 63, "text": "You were engaged to the actor John Cazale, whom most people know as Fredo in \"Godfather\" one and two, and in...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not much. I mean, I did want a break, but I didn't think I would be good in it. Honestly, I didn't. It represented something that, I don't know, I wasn't drawn to. So I suppose it was easier to be obs"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 64, "text": "In \"Dog Day Afternoon.\" Why am I blanking on the title? And he had a small part in \"The Deer Hunter.\" You were nominated for an Oscar for your part in your - in \"The Deer Hunter.\" It was, like, one of your first films. And so you were engaged, and he died of bone cancer shortly after, in 1978.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Dog Day Afternoon.\""}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 65, "text": "So he probably died not knowing how famous his roles were going to be, how famous those movies were going to be.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. We were not engaged, but we were a couple. We lived together and - yes, for, like, three years."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 66, "text": "Well, they've entered into iconic. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know. I know. He had - well, he had a - the \"Godfather\" movies were unbelievably popular. And, you know, they were just - popular isn't the word. They were..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 67, "text": "You gave a terrific commencement address at Barnard in 2010, and one of the things you talked about was how you think of your first character as being you in high school", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, absolutely. And they did early. I mean, early, early on, they had that importance, certainly in New York, where we lived. And, you know, we would walk along the street, and people would roll dow"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 68, "text": ", when you wanted to be the pretty, popular girl. So what you did was you studied Vogue and Mademoiselle. And what were some of the things you taught yourself to do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, absolutely. And they did early. I mean, early, early on, they had that importance, certainly in New York, where we lived. And, you know, we would walk along the street, and people would roll dow"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 69, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Bleach my hair, A, and curl it. And there was an elaborate thing, 'cause there weren't hot curlers in those days, so you had to go to bed on - sleeping on rollers, which is just a torture, like maybe "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 70, "text": "Did you ever use the tin-can thing, putting a tin can on top of your head?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Wooden plugs that they put under your neck in the boma, you know, to go to sleep, which I also don't understand."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 71, "text": "All right. I get it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was for the people with curly hair."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 72, "text": "I get it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was interested in curling..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 73, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...My bone-straight hair..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 74, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Which won't bend, you know, under any circumstance. Yeah. But the girls with curly hair put it on cans so that it would straighten it out..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 75, "text": "So you said that you adjusted your temperament to - in trying to be popular and appealing to boys.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...During the night. Everybody was miserable."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 76, "text": "What did you change?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Oh, sure."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 77, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I remember that, well, opinions took a back seat. Opinions were not, you know, attractive. I mean, this is stuff I remember thinking when I was quite young. You know, at my house, in order to be heard"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 78, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "wow. Yeah, cool."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 79, "text": "One other thing actresses, I think, worry about - you can be the leading lady in your 20s and 30s. Once you're in your 40s, it's really harder to get roles. There's character roles and, you know, the parent roles. I think things are starting to change, but have you been satisfied with the roles for women of your age as you've changed ages over the years, or have you been frustrated with what's out there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, and that that would be OK. So it's a form of acting for a purpose which girls learn to do, and girls are good at it, if they care to be. Now I don't think they - what do I know? I have three"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 80, "text": "Literally witch?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Both. I remember when I turned 40, I was offered within one year three different witch roles to be in."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 81, "text": "You can't really say that on the radio.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", which..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 82, "text": "We could bleep it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I probably can't say that. OK. Well, you know what I'm saying, so you substitute something better, but..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 83, "text": "It will have been bleeped by the time listeners hear that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 84, "text": "Sexuality was not the first thing, is what you're saying.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. So that's - that was it. And then after that, they really didn't know what to do with you until you were the lioness in winter - right? - until you were 70. And then it was OK to, you know - \"Driv"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 85, "text": "Sexiness.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was not the first thing."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 86, "text": "Well, Meryl Streep, I really regret that we're out of time. It's been great to talk with you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, because when that goes away - cute. I was never cute. So when cute goes away, 'cause that goes away with age..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Meryl Streep", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Meryl Streep", "question_index": 87, "text": "Thank you so much for being on our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Me too. Great to talk..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to our series, Classic Films and Movie Icons, with the interview I recorded with Sidney Poitier in 2000 after the publication of his memoir. Poitier said he always believed that his work should convey his personal values. When he started making movies in 1949, it was hard for Black actors to get significant film roles, much harder than today. It was even difficult to get small parts that weren't stereotyped. But in the '50s and '60s, Poitier starred in a string of films that addressed the racial tensions of the time - films like \"The Defiant Ones,\" \"In The Heat Of The Night,\" \"Lilies Of The Field\" and \"Guess Who's Coming To Dinner.\" In 1963, he became the first Black actor to win an Oscar for best actor. He remained the only Black actor to win in that category until 2001, when Denzel Washington won for \"Training Day.\" In the '70s, Poitier directed such films as \"Buck And The Preacher,\" \"Uptown Saturday Night,\" \"Let's Do It Again,\" and \"Stir Crazy.\" Poitier grew up in the Bahamas on Cat Island and Nassau. His family was poor. He was born in 1924 and arrived prematurely, weighing only three pounds. His father prepared for his baby's imminent death by buying a little casket. His mother went to a fortune teller. Poitier died two years ago at the age of 94.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 1, "text": "Your first audition was as a result of a classified ad that you'd read for the American Negro Theatre, which was looking for performers. You say when you got to your audition, you had trouble just reading the script. You certainly hadn't been in an audition before. You had no training, but you didn't have much schooling either.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 2, "text": "What did you do to try to improve your auditioning skills before going back to prove that this guy was wrong and that you could do it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I didn't. So when I went into to this place, I could read, for instance, the want ad pages, and I could recognize words like janitor and dishwasher and stuff like that. Just across the page from t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 3, "text": "Well, let me just stop you there and say I can hear the accent much more in this interview than I hear it in movies.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my first job was to - because I had this Caribbean accent, as you are, I'm sure you're acquainted with..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 4, "text": "So you went back to the American Negro Theatre Company (ph) and auditioned a second time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Well, I had it very intensely, and - so much so that he made a remark about it. And I knew that from what he had said, that I had to do something about that first and foremost. So I saved up"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 5, "text": "So it's amazing, really, that you were able to actually get a part after all of this. What - just tell me - what was the thing that you did that you think convinced the right people at the theater company to give you a shot?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't know any better. So I got up on the stage, and I'm reading this thing. And I was hardly through the first paragraph when they stopped me. Oh, my God - just thinking about it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 6, "text": "Let me advance the story a little further and take you to the early part of your movie career, specifically to \"Blackboard Jungle,\" which was released in 1954. This was an important film for you. You had one of the leads in it. This is, like, the most famous high school film, I think - opens with \"Rock Around The Clock.\" Glenn Ford plays the new teacher at a school just filled with juvenile delinquents. And in your first scene, he catches you and some of the other guys smoking in the bathroom. You're washing your hands with your back turned toward the teacher for most of this scene. Let's hear this scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They didn't give me a shot. They rejected me after the - they saw my audition. And I made some observations myself while I was there. I noticed that they did not have a janitor there. And I proposed t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 7, "text": "Sidney Poitier, how did you like your role in \"Blackboard Jungle\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Gregory Miller) Sure, chief. That's what I've been doing all the time."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 8, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded with Sidney Poitier in 2000. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I liked it. I liked it. This young guy that I play, he was really on the cusp of finding himself in useful ways or losing himself to forces he couldn't quite understand by then. And so he had some com"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with Sidney Poitier in 2000.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I liked it. I liked it. This young guy that I play, he was really on the cusp of finding himself in useful ways or losing himself to forces he couldn't quite understand by then. And so he had some com"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, you became the African American leading man in the '60s. What were some of the things that you felt you weren't allowed to play or express as an African American leading man in the '60s in Hollywood?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I liked it. I liked it. This young guy that I play, he was really on the cusp of finding himself in useful ways or losing himself to forces he couldn't quite understand by then. And so he had some com"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 11, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I - that is a very good question. And the true answer is I have no such imagery of what I was not able to express because taken - taking the times as they were, the fact of my career was in itself rem"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, I'm glad you brought that up. What were some of the things you heard from your fellow actors at the time about stereotype roles that they had to play in Hollywood when you came to Hollywood?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Just the fact of it, you see. It would have been a luxury I would not have spent much time on trying to determine what was missing. What was missing was not so much for me but what was missing for "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 13, "text": "Let me talk with you about a scene that I think represents the kind of values that you're talking about. And this is a scene from \"In The Heat Of The Night.\" In that film, Rod Steiger plays a local police chief in a Southern town. You're a homicide cop from Philadelphia passing through the Southern town, but you're arrested for being suspicious because you're a Black man from out of town carrying money in your wallet. The police chief doesn't really believe that you're a cop, so he calls your boss in Philly. And your boss suggests that you stay in the small Southern town to help them solve this big murder case that they're working on 'cause they don't have cops who are nearly as experienced as you are. So in this scene, you and Rod Steiger, who's still very skeptical of you, go to question one of the leading white businessmen in town. And I'll just explain, in case it's confusing as our listeners hear it, that as you're questioning him, the businessman slaps you, and then without missing a beat, you slap him right back. Here's the scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, well, you know, most of us, I think, were obliged to play what was available. I did not. I did not take advantage of that. I couldn't. It was not what I needed to do for my life. I had elected t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 14, "text": "Sidney Poitier, in your new memoir, you say that's not the way the scene was originally written. Originally, you didn't slap this businessman right after he slapped you. What did you do in the original scene, and why did you want to change it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Eric Endicott) I'll remember that. There was a time when I could have had you shot."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 15, "text": "In that film, you use something that you've used in a lot of your films, a very indignant stare, a stare that carries a lot of weight. Can you talk about how you perfected that look?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The original scene called for the businessman to slap me and for me to absorb it and leave. I found it reprehensible that the writers, writing for that period, would not have written it differently. A"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 16, "text": "Right, right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "First of all, I don't acknowledge that I have such a look, I mean..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 17, "text": "Right. But is that, do you think, a look that came from real life or one that you just developed for your acting roles?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Because I see myself differently than other people see me obviously."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 18, "text": "Well, I thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, my acting roles are, at the core of themselves, a part of me. So whatever that look is, I mean, it - I cannot manufacture such a look. It comes out of those forces that are churning internally in "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 19, "text": "Sidney Poitier, recorded in 2000. He died in 2022 at the age of 94. Our series Classic Films and Movie Icons continues tomorrow, featuring interviews from our archive with Dennis Hopper, who made his movie comeback with the film \"Blue Velvet,\" and Isabella Rossellini, who starred in that film too. She's the daughter of two other movie icons, actress Ingrid Bergman and director Roberto Rossellini. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for inviting me."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-28", "guest": "Sidney Poitier", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Sidney Poitier", "question_index": 20, "text": "Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producers are Molly Seavy-Nesper and Sabrina Siewert. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) In the heat of the night, seems like a cold sweat creeping cross my brow. Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Dennis Hopper", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Dennis Hopper", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're going to continue our series Classic Films and Movie Icons with interviews from our archive with Dennis Hopper and Isabella Rossellini, two stars of the groundbreaking 1986 film \"Blue Velvet.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Dennis Hopper", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Dennis Hopper", "question_index": 1, "text": "That's Dennis Hopper in the film \"Blue Velvet,\" which was directed by David Lynch, who described Hopper as sort of the perfect American dangerous hero. \"Blue Velvet\" was one of Hopper's comeback films. A few years before that, he'd been institutionalized, paranoid and totally disoriented from years of drugs and alcohol. Early in his career, he was in two defining films about youth culture, \"Rebel Without A Cause,\" in which he had a small part, and \"Easy Rider,\" which he directed and starred in with Peter Fonda. While Hopper was still using drugs, he played a drug-addled photojournalist in \"Apocalypse Now.\" Dennis Hopper died in 2010 of prostate cancer at the age of 74. We're going to hear excerpts of two interviews with him, starting with the one we recorded in 1990. We began by talking about his role in \"Blue Velvet\" as Frank Booth, a crazy, dangerous, and weird character. Hopper said that when he read the script, he told director David Lynch, I am Frank.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Frank Booth) All right. We're giving our neighbor a joyride. Let's get on with it. Anyone want to go on a joyride with us? How about you?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Dennis Hopper", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Dennis Hopper", "question_index": 2, "text": "Did you think that you were like Frank at some point in your life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I really understood Frank. I didn't have a problem with Frank. I understood. I just understood him. And I called David. I'd never met David, and he'd give me the part. And I called him. They'd begun f"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Dennis Hopper", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Dennis Hopper", "question_index": 3, "text": "Yeah, I see what you mean.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I understood his sexual obsession, you know, and I - even though David wrote it as the stuff that he was sniffing as helium, I had always thought of it as some sort of drug, you know, like an am"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Dennis Hopper", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Dennis Hopper", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it'd just been this guy who takes this - that does this mask and gets this weird and..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Dennis Hopper", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Dennis Hopper", "question_index": 5, "text": "Do you like roles with the kind of intensity that your performance has in the character of Frank?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Then does all those things and nothing else happens to him. It would be very bizarre. But anyway, because when I read it, I thought of it that way, of the drug-crazed guy and the sexual kind of str"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Dennis Hopper", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Dennis Hopper", "question_index": 6, "text": "Your first movie role was in \"Rebel Without A Cause.\" You were, I think, 18 years old. Did the movie help give you a sense of teenagers being their own culture and their own misunderstood culture, or were you already feeling that way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, like, you know, I think that probably of all the work that I've done, Frank is probably the flashiest role I ever had, you know? I like it on that level."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Dennis Hopper", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Dennis Hopper", "question_index": 7, "text": "So what did he teach you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I went on that picture - when I went on that picture, I saw James Dean, for the first time, act. And at that point all I was concerned about was being an actor. I wasn't concerned about, like, you kno"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Dennis Hopper", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Dennis Hopper", "question_index": 8, "text": "Stop the line readings. What did you stop doing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He wanted to know what my motivation was for wanting to act, you know, and he asked me if I'd had a problem with my parents, if I had actually hated my parents and that that was part of the drive that"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Dennis Hopper", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Dennis Hopper", "question_index": 9, "text": "Was James Dean the first friend that you had who died - I mean, like, someone of around your age?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, like, you know, I was out of a classical theater background. So I mean, there were ways of reading lines, you know, I mean, even hello; how are you, became a way of reading a line. So th"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Dennis Hopper", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Dennis Hopper", "question_index": 10, "text": "Did it scare you a lot to have someone who was close to you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, there had been - yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Dennis Hopper", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Dennis Hopper", "question_index": 11, "text": "I have to ask you about \"Easy Rider,\" the 1969 film that you co-wrote, directed and starred in. You had done some work with Roger Corman. Peter Fonda had done some biker-type movies and acid trip movies with Corman. Did you see this as an exploitation film, or did you want it to be, you know, a movie in the spirit of the counterculture?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he was more - I mean, more than a friend. I think of him more as a teacher than as a friend. We did two films together, which took about a year of our lives. He only made three movies. We did \"R"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Dennis Hopper", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Dennis Hopper", "question_index": 12, "text": "\"Easy Rider,\" yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're talking about \"Easy Rider.\""}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Dennis Hopper", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Dennis Hopper", "question_index": 13, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Me, I wasn't really thinking about either one of those things. I wanted to win the Cannes Film Festival. I wanted it to be an art film."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Dennis Hopper", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Dennis Hopper", "question_index": 14, "text": "Were you already doing a lot of drugs when you made \"Easy Rider,\" and was that out of control at all?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The counterculture was becoming the culture at that time, so I thought I was making a film for everyone. What I did was I showed people smoking marijuana without going out and killing a bunch of nurse"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Dennis Hopper", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Dennis Hopper", "question_index": 15, "text": "So how did it get to the point where you did so much drugs that you ended up not working?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "you know, and keep the work going. So, like, you know, anyway, that wasn't anything."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Dennis Hopper", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Dennis Hopper", "question_index": 16, "text": "Dennis Hopper recorded in 1990. He came back to FRESH AIR for another interview in 1996. We'll hear an excerpt of that conversation after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, there comes a point where, like, you know, if you're not the most popular guy in the world and in demand, suddenly people start looking at your behavior. So at a certain point, my using "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Dennis Hopper", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Dennis Hopper", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's continue our Classic Films and Movie Icons series with the late actor and director Dennis Hopper. Hopper played a lot of crazed characters over his career, but when I recorded my second interview with him in 1996, he was playing against type in the film \"Carried Away.\" He starred as a schoolteacher in a small rural community living on a broken-down farm with his mother.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, there comes a point where, like, you know, if you're not the most popular guy in the world and in demand, suddenly people start looking at your behavior. So at a certain point, my using "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Dennis Hopper", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Dennis Hopper", "question_index": 18, "text": "You grew up in Dodge City, Kan. At least that's where you spent the early years of your life. Did any of the characters in the movie remind you of anyone you knew growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, there comes a point where, like, you know, if you're not the most popular guy in the world and in demand, suddenly people start looking at your behavior. So at a certain point, my using "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Dennis Hopper", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Dennis Hopper", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Well, my great uncles. They wore bib overalls until they rotted off of them."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Dennis Hopper", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Dennis Hopper", "question_index": 20, "text": "Were there big town scandals when you were growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were wheat farmers. And I used to milk the cow before I went to school in the morning. So..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Dennis Hopper", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Dennis Hopper", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, Dodge City was - we're still trying to live up to the old days when Bat Masterson and Doc Holliday and Wyatt Earp were there, you know?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Dennis Hopper", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Dennis Hopper", "question_index": 22, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just remember it was a dry state. But if you were old enough to get your hand up on a bar, they'd put a drink in it. So, you know..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Dennis Hopper", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Dennis Hopper", "question_index": 23, "text": "Was it fun to see movies about Dodge City living there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And fighting around the drive-ins seemed to be - not the drive-in movies but the drive-in hamburger joints - seemed to be the big thing to do after football games. And, you know, my mother managed the"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Dennis Hopper", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Dennis Hopper", "question_index": 24, "text": "Was that the only connection you saw between the movie world and your own life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I remember Errol Flynn came to Dodge City when I was about 5 years old. That was a big time, for the premiere of - I think it was called \"Dodge City,\" I think, for \"Fort Dodge\" or whatever it wa"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Dennis Hopper", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Dennis Hopper", "question_index": 25, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, I was raised at the end of the dust bowl, so I used to tell people the first light that I really saw was not from the sun, but it was from a movie projector."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Dennis Hopper", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Dennis Hopper", "question_index": 26, "text": "Fill her apron full of eggs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. My grandmother used to - she didn't drive a car, so she used to fill her apron. We lived about five miles outside of Dodge, and so my grandfather would go off to the farm in Garden City, which i"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Dennis Hopper", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Dennis Hopper", "question_index": 27, "text": "You've been collecting art for a long time. What was your first exposure to art? Was there any art around when you were growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And we'd walk into town, she'd sell the eggs at the poultry place and get the money. And we'd go to see a matinee. And I'd see \"The Singing Cowboys.\" Once in a while we'd see an Errol Flynn movi"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Dennis Hopper", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Dennis Hopper", "question_index": 28, "text": "Wait. Were you an underprivileged child?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I don't know. You know, I drew when I was a kid, and I was - I studied at the Nelson Art Gallery on weekends. They had an underprivileged children's art class. And..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Dennis Hopper", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Dennis Hopper", "question_index": 29, "text": "The movie theater or stage theater?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I got in there. I slipped in. So at that time, I was in a drawing class, and I was doing a little watercolor like I'd learned in Dodge City. And this man came up to me, and he said, what are you"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Dennis Hopper", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Dennis Hopper", "question_index": 30, "text": "Now, it must have been interesting to be exposed to your first abstract art through somebody's private collection as opposed to through a museum.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Stage theater, where they were rehearsing plays. And I'd sketch the actors. And so that was sort of my beginning of my art career. When I arrived in Los Angeles, I had worked at La Jolla Playhouse. An"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Dennis Hopper", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Dennis Hopper", "question_index": 31, "text": "Did that, in a way, encourage you to later become a collector, I mean, because it was part of how you were first exposed to it? I know you collect a lot of art.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Dennis Hopper", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Dennis Hopper", "question_index": 32, "text": "Gee, how nice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, Vincent gave me a painting, actually, when I was about - I was 19 or 20. Vincent gave me a small painting. I don't even remember who was by now. And I said, I know that you're probably goi"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Dennis Hopper", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Dennis Hopper", "question_index": 33, "text": "I really want to thank you a lot for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then when I got my first money, I did start collecting art. It's like a compulsion. I was thinking about it the other day. I think that - you know, I don't have a formula where I go to the right d"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Dennis Hopper", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Dennis Hopper", "question_index": 34, "text": "Dennis Hopper recorded in 1996. He died in 2010. After a break, we'll hear my interview with Isabella Rossellini, who starred with Hopper in \"Blue Velvet.\" First, here's Hopper in a scene from \"Apocalypse Now.\" Hopper played a drug-addled photojournalist in Vietnam during the war. In this scene, he's talking to the Martin Sheen character, Lieutenant Willard, who's in a cage in the jungle held captive by the renegade Colonel Sheen's character was sent to find, the character played by Marlon Brando. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it's always a pleasure. It's great listening to your show."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Isabella Rossellini", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Isabella Rossellini", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Next up on our Classic Films and Movie Icons series is an interview from our archive with Isabella Rossellini. She's the daughter of two film icons, actor Ingrid Bergman and the Italian neorealist director Roberto Rossellini. She first became known as a fashion model. After starring in \"Blue Velvet\" with Dennis Hopper, she became known for her acting. The movie became a cult classic, and David Lynch was nominated for an Oscar for directing. I spoke with Isabella Rossellini in 1997.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Isabella Rossellini", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Isabella Rossellini", "question_index": 1, "text": "I want to ask you about \"Blue Velvet.\" You were so wonderful in that film.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Isabella Rossellini", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Isabella Rossellini", "question_index": 2, "text": "You played a nightclub singer who is exotic and mesmerizing, but is in a weird and abusive relationship with a psycho played by Dennis Hopper.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Isabella Rossellini", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Isabella Rossellini", "question_index": 3, "text": "How did you get the part, and what interested you in this part?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Isabella Rossellini", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Isabella Rossellini", "question_index": 4, "text": "You know, an interesting thing you say about making this movie in your memoir is that when you were rehearsing, you didn't have to wear the makeup. You didn't have to wear the clothes, but you had to have the red fingernail polish on...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To me, it was the only time that I could portrayed a battered woman and a Stockholm syndrome where it was - it's very hard for a victim to recognize that they're a victim. Generally a victim feels gui"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Isabella Rossellini", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Isabella Rossellini", "question_index": 5, "text": "...Otherwise you just couldn't do the part. Why is that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Isabella Rossellini", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Isabella Rossellini", "question_index": 6, "text": "Right. Now, what do you do when you're shooting, like, the scenes with Dennis Hopper? Say, the scenes where he's inhaling this weird...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that because a lot of the scenes were nude and a lot of the scenes were rape, and a lot of it was very vulnerable, it was easier for me to play Dorothy, to be someone else. And so even w"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Isabella Rossellini", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Isabella Rossellini", "question_index": 7, "text": "...In this weird gas that he inhales that turns him on. What do you do in a scene like that to break the tension", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Isabella Rossellini", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Isabella Rossellini", "question_index": 8, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Isabella Rossellini", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Isabella Rossellini", "question_index": 9, "text": "There's a scene in the movie where you're wandering around the street naked. Tell me about that scene and what you wanted your body to look at. It's not a vanity scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Dennis was wonderful. You know, that was the first scene I had done in the film. I just came - the film had started, I think, a week or two, and we came in and David said, you know, we're going "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Isabella Rossellini", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Isabella Rossellini", "question_index": 10, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded with Isabella Rossellini in 1997. We'll hear more of my interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not at all. I mean, it's - not at all. I, David Lynch told me that when he was a child coming back from school, he saw a naked woman walking in the street. And instead of getting aroused or excite"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Isabella Rossellini", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Isabella Rossellini", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to our Classic Films and Movie Icons series and continue my 1997 interview with Isabella Rossellini. Her father was the Italian neorealist film director Roberto Rossellini, and her mother was actor Ingrid Bergman. Isabella Rossellini grew up in Rome and Paris and moved to New York when she was a teenager. Before establishing herself as an actor, she was a model. How did you start modeling?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not at all. I mean, it's - not at all. I, David Lynch told me that when he was a child coming back from school, he saw a naked woman walking in the street. And instead of getting aroused or excite"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Isabella Rossellini", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Isabella Rossellini", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I started modeling by chance. I was 28, and I used to work for the Italian television. I'm Italian originally, but I lived in New York. And socially I've met a wonderful photographer called Bruce Webe"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Isabella Rossellini", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Isabella Rossellini", "question_index": 13, "text": "You've been photographed by many great photographers. What are some of the different ways they get you to respond to the camera? Do you feel like you respond to the camera differently depending on who the photographer is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But then from Bruce photo, I really literally had an overnight success. And within a month I was in Richard Avedon's studio working basically every day, having covers. And my life completely changed. "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Isabella Rossellini", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Isabella Rossellini", "question_index": 14, "text": "So are there things that photographers would actually tell you to do or tell you to think about that would help?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, definitely. There is definitely a style of posing. I have seen very, very beautiful girl who didn't have a great career. And somebody else who maybe was a little bit - they're always beautiful. Th"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Isabella Rossellini", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Isabella Rossellini", "question_index": 15, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in my book I give the example with Richard Avedon. He was the first one - see; I was terribly spoiled. My first experience was with Bruce Weber followed by Richard Avedon, and they taught me. I "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Isabella Rossellini", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Isabella Rossellini", "question_index": 16, "text": "Now, is this something you think about when you're making movies, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One day I said, what is he saying? He doesn't know what I'm thinking. So I went back to a thought I had and he caught me immediately. He said, no, no, I told you, I don't like what you're thinking. Ch"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Isabella Rossellini", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Isabella Rossellini", "question_index": 17, "text": "How much of an emphasis on acting have you wanted to have in your career?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it is. That's why I always say that it isn't - you know, people always differentiate between the two jobs as being so categorically different, modeling and acting. And they are instead - there's "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Isabella Rossellini", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Isabella Rossellini", "question_index": 18, "text": "When you were growing up with your parents, Ingrid Bergman and the film director Roberto Rossellini, did you love movies? Were movies a big part of your life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". My mother just adored it, lived for it, and I don't. I like it. I like it a lot. But I don't have the same - I think my mother liked acting most and above all."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Isabella Rossellini", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Isabella Rossellini", "question_index": 19, "text": "You write in your memoir that your mother came out of Hollywood. And she had, you know, a Hollywood sense of entertainment. She liked entertainment whereas your father, the famous neorealist director, had a much more kind of serious artistic approach to movies. Do you feel that you grew up and that he didn't care much about, quote, \"light entertainment\"? Do you feel that you grew up with an integrated sense of both, you know, film as a higher art and as an entertainment?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". That was very surprising to me."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Isabella Rossellini", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Isabella Rossellini", "question_index": 20, "text": "I want to thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- not all of them but some of them."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-29", "guest": "Isabella Rossellini", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Isabella Rossellini", "question_index": 21, "text": "My interview with Isabella Rossellini was recorded in 1997. Our series, Classic Films and Movie Icons, continues through Labor Day. Coming up, jazz historian Kevin Whitehead has an appreciation of singer Dinah Washington on the centennial of her birth. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Clint Eastwood", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Clint Eastwood", "question_index": 0, "text": "Well, in some of your action roles in some of your Westerns and, like, \"Dirty Harry\" films, you not only don't say a lot, but what you do say you're saying often through clenched teeth, you know, in that really guttural voice. How did you develop that style of speaking?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli. This week, we're featuring our classic films and movie icons series of interviews from our archives. Today, Westerns. First up, Clint Eastwood. He became a TV s"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Clint Eastwood", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Clint Eastwood", "question_index": 1, "text": "Did you have a sense of that reading the script that, you know, presidents would be", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that the character just drives you in that as a character who is maybe frustrated with the things that the common person on the street is frustrated with - the bureaucracy that we live i"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Clint Eastwood", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Clint Eastwood", "question_index": 2, "text": ", you know, making - you know, improvising on those lines and that they'd be - people just - they would just enter the general vocabulary? Could you read a script and say, these lines are going to last beyond the film?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that the character just drives you in that as a character who is maybe frustrated with the things that the common person on the street is frustrated with - the bureaucracy that we live i"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Clint Eastwood", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Clint Eastwood", "question_index": 3, "text": "Have you ever been able to do that, have just the right comeback at just the right moment?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nobody can say that for sure. But I think the appeal of some of those early characters was the fact that the man would have the right answer. And it was always usually very terse and kind of right to "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Clint Eastwood", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Clint Eastwood", "question_index": 4, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very rarely."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Clint Eastwood", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Clint Eastwood", "question_index": 5, "text": "Now, when you're doing a line like, make my day, and you know, OK, this is a really good line, do you, like, go home and do line reading - does it go, MAKE my day, make MY day, make my DAY? And just do it over and over until you figure out exactly how you want to do it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Clint Eastwood", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Clint Eastwood", "question_index": 6, "text": "Right", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Looking into the bathroom..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Clint Eastwood", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Clint Eastwood", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Looking into the bathroom..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Clint Eastwood", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Clint Eastwood", "question_index": 8, "text": "Are you talking to me?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Mirror and doing some of your best acting."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Clint Eastwood", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Clint Eastwood", "question_index": 9, "text": "No. Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I don't go over the lines. I don't play them out loud. I just - I'd rather play them for the first time when I do them."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Clint Eastwood", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Clint Eastwood", "question_index": 10, "text": "I want to get to your spaghetti Westerns, the films you made with Sergio Leone. You started the Sergio Leone films when you were still making \"Rawhide,\" the TV Western. How did Sergio Leone get to see \"Rawhide\" and decide you were the one to star in His Western?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I usually do them by the motivation of what the feelings are at the time. So I start them from what the intent is and then let it kind of go out. It's sort of like blowing through a trumpet or som"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Clint Eastwood", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Clint Eastwood", "question_index": 11, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They didn't have any..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Clint Eastwood", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Clint Eastwood", "question_index": 12, "text": "There's a lot of really interesting facial close-ups in your movies with Sergio Leone, and he had a very iconographic way of shooting faces, particularly your face. And your face in those close-ups is often, well, mysterious, unknowable. Instead of the facial close-ups like revealing this essence of who you are, they reveal the unknowability of who you are. And I've always wondered, what were you thinking during those close-ups to get the right expression on your face?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They didn't have any money to spend, so they didn't have a lot of choices as far as names of the moment."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Clint Eastwood", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Clint Eastwood", "question_index": 13, "text": "You develop...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The first response would be to say absolutely nothing to get the - George Kuko used to say - he'd tell Greta Garbo, sometimes, to look into the camera and stare and don't think about a thing. But that"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Clint Eastwood", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Clint Eastwood", "question_index": 14, "text": "You developed a squint, also, in some of those close-ups.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like, these guys - I'd like to blow them all away, but I'd be very pleasant at the moment."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Clint Eastwood", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Clint Eastwood", "question_index": 15, "text": "Was it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that was just the sunlight."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Clint Eastwood", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Clint Eastwood", "question_index": 16, "text": "Now, in Richard Schickel's book about you, he says that, you know, \"Rawhide\" followed the strict production code of the time. You couldn't show a fired gun and the victim of the bullet in the same shot. There had to be an edit in between. What was your reaction to Sergio Leone's really vivid approach to violence?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. They bomb me with a bunch of lights, and you're outside, and it's 90 degrees. It's hard not to squint."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Clint Eastwood", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Clint Eastwood", "question_index": 17, "text": "Clint Eastwood, I thought that your choice of directing and starring in \"The Unforgiven\" (ph) was such an interesting choice because it's a movie about a man who goes from bad man to good man to myth. And it's also interesting because it's about the difficulty of killing someone and what it takes out of you when you do kill someone. And you'd been in so many mythic movies and been in so many movies where the character that you played killed a lot of people. So I'm interested in how you related to the story in \"The Unforgiven\" and how it dealt with myth making and with violence.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that was true. The Hays Office at that time had a rule for Westerns only, ironically, and you couldn't show the shootee and the shooter in the same shot. It couldn't be a tie-up shot, in other w"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Clint Eastwood", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Clint Eastwood", "question_index": 18, "text": "Well, Clint Eastwood, I feel like I must talk with you a little bit about music. Let's listen to this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, and it was - it brought out the truth about gunplay and the fact that there is some loss to your soul when you commit an act of violence. And to play a person who was deeply affected in his "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Clint Eastwood", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Clint Eastwood", "question_index": 19, "text": "And that's from the album \"Clint Eastwood Sings Cowboy Favorites.\" And there's a picture of Clint Eastwood as Rowdy Yates on the cover, \"Rawhide's Clint Eastwood Sings Cowboy Favorites.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Oh, give me land, lots of land under starry skies above. Don't fence me in. Let me ride through the wide-open country that I love. Don't fence me. Let me be by myself in the evenin' breeze, "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Clint Eastwood", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Clint Eastwood", "question_index": 20, "text": "Oh, yes, it was. I actually like your singing voice. I really do. I mean, this is a strange album with strange arrangements and not always good songs. But I really like your singing. I imagine you're also, like, influenced by Chet Baker in your singing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Clint Eastwood", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Clint Eastwood", "question_index": 21, "text": "The songs on here, I'd imagine not. But you got to sing Cole Porter, \"Don't Fence Me In.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that wasn't - first place, that wasn't the kind of songs that I would normally like to sing."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Clint Eastwood", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Clint Eastwood", "question_index": 22, "text": "Would you like to sing more or play more or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's nothing wrong with that. Cole Porter is certainly wonderful. But what happened is that somebody had the brilliant idea that I should do some cowboy songs, not country-western songs, Nashville "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Clint Eastwood", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Clint Eastwood", "question_index": 23, "text": "Yes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I don't have any - one of my key sayings..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Eli Wallach", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Eli Wallach", "question_index": 0, "text": "Did you have to learn gunplay and horse riding for the role?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I first read the script, I said, well, I want to play the crazy - it was based on the \"Seven Samurai.\" I want to play the crazy samurai. Oh, no, they said. That's the love interest. Horst Buchhol"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Eli Wallach", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Eli Wallach", "question_index": 1, "text": "Now, another famous Western that you did is \"The Good, The Bad, And The Ugly.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. If it says I shoot somebody, I shoot them. I'll never forget what my son said. Yul Brynner shot and killed me in this movie. And my son was about 7, and he said to me, gee, Dad, couldn't you outdr"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Eli Wallach", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Eli Wallach", "question_index": 2, "text": "Now, this was - this is the most celebrated of the spaghetti Westerns.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Eli Wallach", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Eli Wallach", "question_index": 3, "text": "And the director, Sergio Leone, is now considered one of the great directors of our time. He was not known, though, when you worked with him on \"The Good, The Bad And The Ugly.\" Did you think of him as a great, or potentially great, director then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Eli Wallach", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Eli Wallach", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I - when - I was making a film in California when the agent out there said, there's an Italian here who wants you to be in a movie. I said, what kind of movie? He said, a Western. I said - he said"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Eli Wallach", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Eli Wallach", "question_index": 5, "text": "Well, now, what had he seen of yours?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's like Hawaiian pizza. I don't know. He said, he wants you to look at a few minutes of one of his other movies. And I looked at a few minutes, and I said, I'll do it. Where do you want me to go? "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Eli Wallach", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Eli Wallach", "question_index": 6, "text": "Did it seem ironic to you that you and Clint Eastwood, who had played in American Westerns, were now making a Western for an Italian director?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Evidently, \"The Magnificent Seven\" - saw that. I don't know how - you never know how things happen in the movies."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Eli Wallach", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Eli Wallach", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Originally, all those Italians changed their names. Two of the biggest stars in Italy are Terence Hill and Bud Spencer."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Eli Wallach", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Eli Wallach", "question_index": 8, "text": "You played a Mexican in \"The Good, The Bad And The Ugly.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Their real names are Mario Girotti and Carlo Pedersoli, and they changed their names because no one wanted to go and see Italians playing Westerns. But I - after \"The Good, The Bad And The Ugly,\" I sp"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Eli Wallach", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Eli Wallach", "question_index": 9, "text": "So once again, you had to do a Mexican accent, but it was a light one. It was kind of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Eli Wallach", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Eli Wallach", "question_index": 10, "text": "...Light Mexican accent. I want to play a short clip from the movie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Eli Wallach", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Eli Wallach", "question_index": 11, "text": "OK? And this is a scene - if anyone remembers the story, I'm sure a lot of our listeners do, you and Clint Eastwood have this scam going. There's a big price on your head,", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Eli Wallach", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Eli Wallach", "question_index": 12, "text": "So Clint Eastwood brings you into the law. And just as they're about to hang you, he cuts you loose, and you both ride away, and you split the bounty.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Eli Wallach", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Eli Wallach", "question_index": 13, "text": "So you split the price that was on your head. So this is after the first time, when you're about to be hung, Clint Eastwood frees you, and you're splitting up the bounty.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Eli Wallach", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Eli Wallach", "question_index": 14, "text": "Oh, that little sadistic laugh at the end", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Nothing."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Eli Wallach", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Eli Wallach", "question_index": 15, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Nothing."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Eli Wallach", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Eli Wallach", "question_index": 16, "text": "\"The Good, The Bad And The Ugly\" is really one of the most kind of brutal, sadistic Westerns, in a way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I don't think it's a very good Mexican accent. You know, it's standardized. It isn't - I didn't do the cliche of, (impersonating Mexican accent) I think maybe I do - you know, I don't... I didn't "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Eli Wallach", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Eli Wallach", "question_index": 17, "text": "I know. I know. It is - I know there's a lot of humor in it, but what kind of mood did Leone - or Leone? I'm never sure which it is...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it's done with tongue in cheek. It's not brutal."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Eli Wallach", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Eli Wallach", "question_index": 18, "text": "...Tell you that he wanted?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Leone."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Eli Wallach", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Eli Wallach", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One of the things he said to me, he said, I want every shot to be done like Vermeer. I want the light to come in from the side windows. And he said to me, I don't want you to have your gun in a holste"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Eli Wallach", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Eli Wallach", "question_index": 20, "text": "It's interesting that you became a kind of action hero when you were - what? - probably in your 50s already.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He said, yeah. He said, when you want it, you twist your shoulders, and I cut, and the gun is in your hand. I said, show me. He put it around his neck. He twisted his shoulder. He missed the gun. It h"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Eli Wallach", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Eli Wallach", "question_index": 21, "text": "And \"The Magnificent Seven.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When? \"The Good, The Bad And The Ugly?\""}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Eli Wallach", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Eli Wallach", "question_index": 22, "text": "No, you must have been in your 40s in \"The Magnificent Seven.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I was - no, I was a little younger."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Eli Wallach", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Eli Wallach", "question_index": 23, "text": "But, you know, like, today, most action heroes are a lot younger. It's like, they start off in their 20s and 30s playing that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Eli Wallach", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Eli Wallach", "question_index": 24, "text": "...Kind of role.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Eli Wallach", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Eli Wallach", "question_index": 25, "text": "Did you feel like it was an odd match?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Eli Wallach", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Eli Wallach", "question_index": 26, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you wear very tight pants in these movies."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Eli Wallach", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Eli Wallach", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And to get up on a horse, they'd always have to cut. I'd put my foot in the stirrup, but then they'd cut away to somebody looking at me."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Eli Wallach", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Eli Wallach", "question_index": 28, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And the next thing, I was on the horse. So no, I tell you..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Christopher Frayling", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: The films of Sergio Leone", "question_index": 0, "text": "What's a scene from Leone's first Western, \"A Fistful Of Dollars,\" that you loved in 1967 when you first saw it and that you still love now, that you could describe for us?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University. Let's continue with our series about classic films and movie icons featuring interviews from our archives. "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Christopher Frayling", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: The films of Sergio Leone", "question_index": 1, "text": "Well, I think we should hear that scene because it's classic Clint Eastwood...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Gosh. Four or five bad guys sitting on a five-bar gate in the main street of a flyblown Spanish town standing in for a northern Mexican town. And the man with no name, the hero, walks up to them. And "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Christopher Frayling", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: The films of Sergio Leone", "question_index": 2, "text": "...Talking between his teeth. So here's that scene that you're talking about. And the explosion that we hear at the end is him shooting all those guys who are waiting for him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Gosh. Four or five bad guys sitting on a five-bar gate in the main street of a flyblown Spanish town standing in for a northern Mexican town. And the man with no name, the hero, walks up to them. And "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Christopher Frayling", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: The films of Sergio Leone", "question_index": 3, "text": "That's a scene from Sergio Leone's first western, \"A Fistful Of Dollars.\" Why did Sergio Leone love Westerns? Why did he want to make them in Italy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Joe) I don't think it's nice, you laughing. You see, my mule don't like people laughing, gets the crazy idea you're laughing at him. Now, if you apologize like I know you're going to, I might conv"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Christopher Frayling", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: The films of Sergio Leone", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you got to imagine a child growing up in 1930s Rome at a time when Mussolini was the dictator and when most American movies were banned, and those that were seen were dubbed into Italian. And th"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Christopher Frayling", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: The films of Sergio Leone", "question_index": 5, "text": "Well, you know, but he knew he was making Westerns that were different from American ones. Like, he said - and I think this is to you that he said this, in your interview with him - that John Ford, the great director of Westerns, was full of optimism, whereas I on the contrary am full of pessimism.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Old-fashioned Westerns where - lots and lots of action and not too much talk. He didn't like psychology. Freudian Westerns got on his nerves."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Christopher Frayling", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: The films of Sergio Leone", "question_index": 6, "text": "Let's talk a little bit about the casting in those Westerns. His casting is so good. Of course, Clint Eastwood is the most famous character in his Westerns, the Man With No Name in the \"Fistful Of Dollars\" trilogy. Clint Eastwood was known as Rowdy Yates on \"Rawhide,\" the TV cattle herding series. What did Leone see in Eastwood, you know, in the mid-1960s when he cast him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's the thing. He loved the look of the Western and the idea of the Western and the fairy tale of the Western. But he didn't like some of the ideologies. He didn't like John Wayne very much a"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Hal Needham", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Western stunt double Hal Needham", "question_index": 0, "text": "Now, what were some of the standard Western stunts of the '50s and '60s when you were making the Westerns?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Hal Needham probably was one of the most famous Hollywood stunt doubles. He did all kinds of stunts in all kinds of movies, but he got his start in Western movies and TV shows such "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Hal Needham", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Western stunt double Hal Needham", "question_index": 1, "text": "Yeah. Now, one of your early stunts was for \"Have Gun - Will Travel,\" and you were jumping from a rock about 30 foot high onto a stagecoach that was moving by.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it had mostly to do with what we call a saddle fall, where you get shot and fall off the horse. We did horse falls, rear-end falls, wagon wrecks, buggies and so on. Also, a thing called a bulldo"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Hal Needham", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Western stunt double Hal Needham", "question_index": 2, "text": "And you're supposed to land on the top of the stagecoach as it rides by. Tell us what happened.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Hal Needham", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Western stunt double Hal Needham", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first of all, that was my second stunt on \"Have Gun - Will Travel.\" I had doubled Boone the day before, and he was kind of impressed, and he said, all right - you can do some stuff tomorrow. I g"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Hal Needham", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Western stunt double Hal Needham", "question_index": 4, "text": "So let me ask you - when you're jumping off a 30-foot-high rock onto a moving stagecoach, the top of which looks like a postage stamp because it's so relatively small from the height that you're at, what kind of mental calculation do you do to figure out when to jump?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But - 'cause it really looked small. It looked like a postage stamp. Anyway, they brought the coach through, and I hit it right in the center. As matter of fact, I broke through the top, right up to m"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Hal Needham", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Western stunt double Hal Needham", "question_index": 5, "text": "Now, on that stunt, was there protection for you? Like, if you missed the coach, was there padding on the ground?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know what? You can't say, all right, when the coach gets there, to that mark, I'm going to jump. You just have to look at it because you don't know how fast those horses are going to be running or"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Hal Needham", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Western stunt double Hal Needham", "question_index": 6, "text": "Nothing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nothing."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Hal Needham", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Western stunt double Hal Needham", "question_index": 7, "text": "I say this with the greatest of respect. I think you have to be crazy to be a stuntman like you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nothing. It'd be impossible. First of all, they'd have to pad the road in front and behind, and the horses can't go through that, and over the side. They'd have to camouflage it. No. It's just too muc"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Hal Needham", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Western stunt double Hal Needham", "question_index": 8, "text": "OK. So one of the standard shots that you'd have to do is, like, you're the bad guy, and you're being shot, and you have to fall. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I won't argue that point."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Hal Needham", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Western stunt double Hal Needham", "question_index": 9, "text": "Fall off a balcony, fall off a horse...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You mean fall off the horse or fall off of what? A rock?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Hal Needham", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Western stunt double Hal Needham", "question_index": 10, "text": "...Fall off a rock. You've fallen off all of them. So say, like, you're fall - you're shot. You're falling off from a height.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Hal Needham", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Western stunt double Hal Needham", "question_index": 11, "text": "So when you started making Westerns, what protection was there for you to fall onto?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Hal Needham", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Western stunt double Hal Needham", "question_index": 12, "text": "It sounds so makeshift.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when I started, and that's a long time ago, they would take sawhorses, you know, like carpenters use. They'd take those, and they'd put 1x12 - pine 1x12s across the top, put some cardboard boxes"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Hal Needham", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Western stunt double Hal Needham", "question_index": 13, "text": "What's the highest jump you've done?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it definitely was. But, you know, that's all they could come up with at the time, and I'm going to be really braggadocious here. I'm the one that brought airbags into the stunt world."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Hal Needham", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Western stunt double Hal Needham", "question_index": 14, "text": "You say one of the most dangerous stunts in Westerns - and if you've seen a Western, you've seen this one - it's the stirrup drag, where a guy falls off his horse, but his leg is still in the stirrup, and the horse keeps galloping, dragging the cowboy across the ground over rocks and brush and who knows what else. Why is that the most dangerous Western stunt?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Today, we're talking about Westerns as our week of interviews from the archives celebrating classic films and movie icons continues. Let's get back to Terry's 2011 interview with fo"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Hal Needham", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Western stunt double Hal Needham", "question_index": 15, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there's a couple of things. Matter of fact, I saw one of our stuntmen get killed doing a stirrup drag."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Hal Needham", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Western stunt double Hal Needham", "question_index": 16, "text": "Were you ever hurt during one of those yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He had to go through the gate of - entrance to a ranch. And when he fell off the horse, the horse - you rehearse them so they'll go where you want him to go. Well, this horse didn't follow where he's "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Hal Needham", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Western stunt double Hal Needham", "question_index": 17, "text": "So what goes through your mind when a stuntman is killed? Is that - it must be a very sobering experience.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank God, no, I never was. And I've done quite a few of them, and I just got lucky."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Hal Needham", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Western stunt double Hal Needham", "question_index": 18, "text": "Yeah. I'm sure it wasn't. One of your most dangerous stunts was for a Western, \"Little Big Man,\" about Custer's Last Stand.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We're all aware of the fact that it can happen. And hopefully, when you get ready to do the stunt, you've got it figured out. You got your confidence up. You say, this is going to be OK, and you go fo"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Hal Needham", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Western stunt double Hal Needham", "question_index": 19, "text": "And - so describe the stunt that you had to do here.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Hal Needham", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Western stunt double Hal Needham", "question_index": 20, "text": "These are horses that are in motion.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Dustin Hoffman and his wife are heading west. And they're on - in a stagecoach. They've got a six-up of horses hook to it. They get attacked by the Indians. The shotgun guard gets shot off the coach. "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Hal Needham", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Western stunt double Hal Needham", "question_index": 21, "text": "They're galloping.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Hal Needham", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Western stunt double Hal Needham", "question_index": 22, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They're runaway."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Hal Needham", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Western stunt double Hal Needham", "question_index": 23, "text": "Now...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Runaway - yeah, a coach running away. When we were training the horses to accept us jumping on their back and everything, the way we found we could jump the furthest was to get in motion, get in sync "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Hal Needham", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Western stunt double Hal Needham", "question_index": 24, "text": "I hate to bring this up, but had you failed, you would have been trampled by the horses...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...The toughest."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Hal Needham", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Western stunt double Hal Needham", "question_index": 25, "text": "...Or run over by the coach, depending where you were. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, well..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Hal Needham", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Western stunt double Hal Needham", "question_index": 26, "text": "So you worked with a lot of horses doing Westerns. You owned horses. You trained horses. Two of your most beloved horses were named Hondo and Alamo. And Hondo lost his life as a result of a stunt. He broke his leg doing a stunt.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You'd have two, four, or six horses run over you plus a 4,000-pound coach. Yeah. You couldn't fail. If you messed up, you was going to be in big trouble."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Hal Needham", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Western stunt double Hal Needham", "question_index": 27, "text": "What happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep. That's right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Hal Needham", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Western stunt double Hal Needham", "question_index": 28, "text": "Did it change how attached you allowed yourself to become to your stunt horses?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I held him down. Here's the part that I think is - shows how much I love my horse. We were way out in the country, and I said, does anybody got a gun? When a horse breaks a leg, unless he's a thoro"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-08-30", "guest": "Hal Needham", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Western stunt double Hal Needham", "question_index": 29, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. You know what? I made so much money with him, and I was such buddies with him. I'll tell you two stories if you'll let me. One was I had one of them, and I was just practicing a little bit. And I "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today, we wrap up our series, Classic Films and Movie Icons with writer and director Spike Lee and with actor Samuel L. Jackson, who's appeared in several Spike Lee films, including \"Do The Right Thing,\" \"Jungle Fever,\" \"Mo' Better Blues\" and \"School Daze.\" We'll start with Spike Lee. His first feature was the now-classic 1986 film, \"She's Gotta Have It,\" which earned him a place as a central figure in independent cinema and in Black cinema. Thirty-some years later, he adapted the film into an expanded 10-part series of the same name, which is still available on Netflix. That was the occasion of my most recent interview with Spike Lee, which we recorded in 2017. The central character in \"She's Gotta Have It\" is Nola Darling, a young artist who loves sex but isn't interested in a committed relationship. She's seeing three men, each a different type, but each wants her to himself. In the 1986 original, Spike Lee played one of Nola Darling's boyfriends, the B-boy Mars Blackmon, who's deep into hip-hop culture. I asked Spike Lee to describe the character.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 1, "text": "So I get the impression from this that you never planned on acting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Mars Blackmon is the original B-boy, the original sneakerhead. He wears a chain around his neck that says Mars. He was wearing the fresh Air Jordans. We call them FOBs - fresh out the box. I mea"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 2, "text": "Well, you did...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nope."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 3, "text": "Why don't you like it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't even like it, really, to tell the truth. I don't even do it anymore."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 4, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "'Cause I'm not an actor."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 5, "text": "So I want to hear a - I want to play a scene with you in it from the original 1986 \"She's Gotta Have It.\" And this is a scene where it's the first time Nola invites your character, Mars, up to her apartment. And Mars is surprised at how spacious and nice it is and how much of her artwork is around. So here's the scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But the pop-up - Mars Blackmon became so popular that, you know, people wanted me seen in other stuff. So I played Half-Pint and Shorty. My best performance, if I may say, of my limited acting skills "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 6, "text": "That's Spike Lee as Mars Blackmon in \"Do The Right Thing.\" So your character, as we heard in that scene, repeats certain lines over and over - most famously, please, baby, please. How did you come up with that kind of repetition for your character?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Mars Blackmon) Good."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 7, "text": "Oh, seriously?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 8, "text": "Oh, so that's why you kept repeating?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I kid you not."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 9, "text": "That's hilarious 'cause it's such a kind of quirky, funny characteristic. So it really works.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 10, "text": "So Brooklyn is so important in your life and in your movies and on your hats", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 12, "text": "Yeah, go ahead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, can I just..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 13, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Say something real quick?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 14, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's the Republic of Brooklyn."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 15, "text": "You know, it's so funny.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Republic."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 16, "text": "I grew up in Brooklyn, and it was so...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Republic."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 17, "text": "Sheepshead Bay.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Where?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 18, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Did you go to high school in Brooklyn?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 19, "text": "Sheepshead Bay.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Where?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 20, "text": "Where was John Dewey?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I went to John Dewey."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 21, "text": "Oh, I used to go to Coney Island a lot.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Coney Island."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 22, "text": "Oh, absolutely.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And you went to Nathan's?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 23, "text": "Yeah, but not a lot. It was a little...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You went on the Cyclone?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 24, "text": "...Much for me. Yeah, the Wonder Wheel.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". The Wonder Wheel?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 25, "text": "And then all the bumper cars.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Wonder Wheel. Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 26, "text": "Yeah. So anyways, Brooklyn was not - no one was claiming that Brooklyn was kind of hip or cool or a republic, that I was aware of, when I was growing up", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 27, "text": ". And so it's just interesting to see what Brooklyn has come to signify. Like - so that's quite a change. So when you were young, before you lived in Fort Greene, you lived in another neighborhood - right? - Cobble Hill?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 28, "text": "And why did your parents move there, knowing they'd be the only African Americans in the neighborhood?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, Cobble Hill. The Lees were the first Black family to move into Cobble Hill. Cobble Hill, up to that point, had been historically Italian American working-class neighborhood."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 29, "text": "So when you were probably very young when your parents moved to Cobble Hill and it was an Italian American neighborhood, what was that like for you as a young African American boy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it was a - my mother, you know, who was running things, said, you know, we need to get - my mother always wanted a brownstone. So we didn't own. We rented two floors in a brownstone, Warren Street"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 30, "text": "So what was the school like? Was the school mostly white?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we got called the N-word for, like, two weeks. And then, when it finally dawned on them there were not going to be hundreds of Black families following the Lees and that they was going to go Bla"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 31, "text": "Down in the sewer, was that the last one?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I went to public school - PS 29. After a couple of years, you know, some Puerto Ricans moved in - into the neighborhood. But it was - I had a great, wonderful childhood. And I'm sorry, I'm glad "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 32, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Down - it's a top game. You know, spinning tops?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 33, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the sewers had a hole in it, and the goal was to knock the other guy's..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Top down the sewer."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 35, "text": "We never played that one", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, we were imaginative."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 36, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, we were imaginative."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 37, "text": "And your father was an artist - a jazz musician, bass player, composer, also plays...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was creative. We made up games. We played on the streets. We were running around. There was physicality - I mean, running bases. I mean, we had fun. And the summertime was the best because it wasn'"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 38, "text": "...Some piano. So what did you learn about what it means to be an artist and try to support a family from watching your father?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 39, "text": "Did you resent that? Did you want him to play electric bass so that the family...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh. Well, I learned that there's nothing poetic about being a starving artist. I knew that. And I knew that I wanted to as - to use one of the greatest lines from \"The Godfather,\" I wanted to wet my b"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 40, "text": "...Would have more money?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 41, "text": "What kind of music did your father introduce you to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nah. And I'm just very fortunate that I was able to use the great talents of my father - he scored all my films. In NYU film school, he did the score for \"She's Gotta Have It,\" \"School Daze,\" a great,"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 42, "text": "And you have shout-outs to jazz in...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Jazz."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 43, "text": "...The series. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, here's..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 44, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...The thing, though. Growing up in my house, we had to sneak to listen to Motown and the Beatles. My father would hear that. He said, turn that bad music off."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 45, "text": "Did he introduce you to Johnny Hartman, who I think I heard in the new version?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was jazz. The only music that could be played out loud when he was in the house was jazz. And if it wasn't jazz, you had to turn that mess off, as he would say. Turn that mess off."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 46, "text": "Yeah, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. My father, I mean, he didn't play with them, but he knew everybody. Everybody knew him. I mean..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 47, "text": "Oh, you did the video for \"Tutu.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I'll give an example. Late in his life, I did a video for Miles Davis. It was called \"Tutu.\" And the album..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 48, "text": "Oh, yeah. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Was called \"Tutu.\""}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 49, "text": "My guest is film director Spike Lee. We'll continue our conversation after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "First of all, it'd have been an honor for Miles Davis to call me MFer. That was his favorite word. So I wish he would have called me MFer. But he said, you know what? I know your father's Bill Lee, a "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 50, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 2017 interview with film director Spike Lee. Earlier in our conversation, he was talking about growing up in Cobble Hill, a neighborhood in Brooklyn.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "First of all, it'd have been an honor for Miles Davis to call me MFer. That was his favorite word. So I wish he would have called me MFer. But he said, you know what? I know your father's Bill Lee, a "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 51, "text": "So when your family moved to Fort Greene, you were probably - what? - around 10?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "First of all, it'd have been an honor for Miles Davis to call me MFer. That was his favorite word. So I wish he would have called me MFer. But he said, you know what? I know your father's Bill Lee, a "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 52, "text": "Eleven. OK. So what was it like for you to move to a predominantly African American neighborhood after living in Cobble Hill?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Eleven."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 53, "text": "Did you ever take piano lessons, since your father had a piano and played?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was great. Fort Greene - there was Black and Puerto Rican. It was great because we were living - we weren't renting anymore. We had a big, old house right across the street from Fort Greene Park."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 54, "text": "Have you been that way as a father?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Do I have to do it? Yes, you do. You're the oldest. Back in the day, when your parents told you to do something, you had to do it. There's no negotiating, none of this stuff. You had to do it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 55, "text": "What do you mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 56, "text": "Oh, oh, oh. Did your parents hit you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If you hit a kid, you go to jail."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 57, "text": "Mmm hmm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And it was worse because, like many Black families in the North, when summertime came, your parents shipped your Black a** down South to get a break. So you would spend the summer down South with yo"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 58, "text": "What earned you getting hit with a switch?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 59, "text": "So was that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it didn't matter. They didn't like something, you had to - go get that switch, son."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 60, "text": "Was that an effective form of punishment for you, or was - did it just, like, really make you angry and want to rebel more?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 61, "text": "Were there things you were told you couldn't do in Alabama because of racism? Was the line different than it was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And when we got off - when they saw us with afros, they looked at us like we were three-headed Martians."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 62, "text": "...In Brooklyn?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We never..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 63, "text": "In Morehouse?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "See, there weren't any white people in Snow Hill, Ala., so it was not like we were in Selma or Montgomery or Birmingham. We were in Snow - we were in the sticks. So we rarely ever saw white folks when"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 64, "text": "Were your parents always stressing the importance of education...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 65, "text": "...When you were growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. I mean..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 66, "text": "So what did they...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, educators. Educators."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 67, "text": "...Do to make sure that you got a good education?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's why..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 68, "text": "What's one of the shows that you saw that you really loved?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the best thing my parents did - not just for me, but my siblings - that was - they exposed us to so much stuff. And it paid off. My mother was dragging me to Broadway plays, off-Broadway plays, "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 69, "text": "So this was the movie?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, one thing was memorable. My mother took me to see \"Bye Bye Birdie\" at Radio City Music Hall Easter Show."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 70, "text": "Oh, that's great", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The movie. And the reason why the opening credit sequence to \"Do The Right Thing\" where Rosie Perez is dancing - that came from Ann-Margret dancing in the beginning of \"Bye Bye Birdie.\""}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 71, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The movie. And the reason why the opening credit sequence to \"Do The Right Thing\" where Rosie Perez is dancing - that came from Ann-Margret dancing in the beginning of \"Bye Bye Birdie.\""}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 72, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But here's the thing now. My mother was - so my love of cinema came from my mother. My father hated movies. And so I - since I was the oldest, I was my mother's movie date."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 73, "text": "What impact did that have on you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mother always wanted to introduce me to Martin Scorsese. She took me to see \"Mean Streets\" when that film came out. I was like, Mom, are you a..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 74, "text": "Spike Lee, it's been great to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". What - if you - if somebody could Google what year \"Mean Streets\" came out, I was definitely underage to see that film. And I've told Martin Scorsese that story many times, and he laughs."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 75, "text": "Oh, thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you so much. And again, I'm a fan."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Spike Lee", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Spike Lee", "question_index": 76, "text": "Let's do it again. Absolutely. My interview with Spike Lee was recorded in 2017. Coming up, we conclude our series, Classic Films and Movie Icons, with actor Samuel L. Jackson, who's been in several of Spike Lee's movies. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it's been a minute, so let's do it every time I have a project, all right?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 1, "text": "OK, it's easy for Samuel L. Jackson to capture your attention. It's not just the gun that gets you. It's his charisma. We just heard a clip from the Quentin Tarantino film, \"Pulp Fiction.\" Jackson has been in several other Tarantino films, including \"Jackie Brown\" and \"Django Unchained.\" He's made big-budget action films as well as low-budget independent films. He's been in several Spike Lee movies, including \"Jungle Fever,\" for which he was given a special award at the Cannes Film Festival. I spoke with Samuel L. Jackson in 2000.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Jules Winnfield) Oh, I'm sorry, did I break your concentration? I didn't mean to do that. Please, continue."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 2, "text": "Well, I love the way you speak and the way you do your lines in films. So I thought I would play one of your great monologues.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Jules Winnfield) Oh, I'm sorry, did I break your concentration? I didn't mean to do that. Please, continue."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 3, "text": "And this is a scene from \"Pulp Fiction,\" where you and John Travolta played hitmen. And toward the end of the movie, at the very end - well, towards the very end, you have a religious awakening because you believe that only the intervention of God could explain why you weren't killed in the shootout. So at the very end, you're at a diner with John Travolta when two crazy people pull out their guns and demand that everyone hand over their money. So you get the gun away from the guy and quote the passage from the Bible to him that you used to quote before killing somebody. So let's play that scene. This is Samuel L. Jackson.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 4, "text": "That is such a great scene. And you have such an interesting contrast there between the Bible-reading and then all the slangy stuff that you're saying. Can you talk a little about your line readings there of the Bible and of the more colloquial lines as well? I don't know if you actually kind of, you know, decide in advance where you're going to breathe and which words you're going to emphasize or whether you just kind of do it in a more improvisational way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Jules Winnfield) Well, there's this passage I got memorized - Ezekiel 25:17. The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Bless"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I do a lot of things. I break down scripts into beats, dramatic beats in the context of a scene. What one particular thing is trying to do, what the next thing is trying to do and what explains "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 6, "text": "Well, one of the things you do so effectively is use pauses.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And for the last two weeks, they tried to break down the diner scene. I don't know how you could dissect that movie in one particular way because it's just impossible to do."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 7, "text": "I mean...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 8, "text": "Passing by a screening of \"Jackie Brown\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Quentin's one of the few guys on screen that allows you to do stuff like that because - I was actually passing by \"Jackie Brown\" the other day and..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 9, "text": "Passing by a screening of \"Jackie Brown\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was watching the scene between - huh?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 10, "text": "Oh. Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I was passing by it on television. I was..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 11, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Channel surfing. Channel surfing."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 12, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded with Samuel L. Jackson in 2000. We'll hear more of it as we conclude our series, Classic Films and Movie Icons. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with Samuel L. Jackson in 2000.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And \"Jackie Brown\" was on television. And I was at the scene in the van with De Niro when we discovered the money has been gone, and I see the number of books in there and I stop to think about what h"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 13, "text": "Now that you're a movie star, you have to use a gun a lot in your films. You were very briefly a security guard when you were a lot younger. I'm wondering two things. One, did you have a gun?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And \"Jackie Brown\" was on television. And I was at the scene in the van with De Niro when we discovered the money has been gone, and I see the number of books in there and I stop to think about what h"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 14, "text": "And two, were you in any real-life action scenes, and were you able to use the kind of bravado that you can use in movies? Did you ever try that in real life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 15, "text": "Now, something happened to you in real life that a stuntman might have done if it was a movie. This happened in 1988. You were standing on - I guess you were entering a train in New York City and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I didn't have a gun when I was a security guard. I just had a nightstick, which I really didn't want either because I didn't want to pose a threat to anyone. I was out there - as I told them, I "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 16, "text": "You're getting off and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was getting off, actually."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 17, "text": "...Your leg got caught in the closing door?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 18, "text": "So you were dragged across the platform?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, my ankle was - the door closed on my ankle, and the train took off, yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 19, "text": "What went through your mind as you were getting dragged?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The length of the platform. Yeah. Almost to - I was in the middle car of the last. I was in the middle door of the last car and was dragged to within a car length and a half of the tunnel. Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 20, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's going to be a very sad Christmas."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 21, "text": "So the train stopped in the nick of time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 22, "text": "And you won a lawsuit in 1996. You won about a half a million dollars.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, someone pulled the emergency cord."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 23, "text": "Were you hurt?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 24, "text": "Wow. Now, is there anything that you remember from that experience that you've been able to draw on in a movie? Like, what real terror is, what real fear is that you are about to die?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I had to have my right knee surgically repaired. I mean, it tore all the ligaments in my right knee. I had a complete ACL tear, a partial tear of the meniscus, all kinds of cartilage damage. So "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 25, "text": "I want to hear more about your life. You were born in 1949 in Washington, D.C. Your parents divorced when you were how old?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no, I don't give that much thought 'cause I never felt terrorized, actually. It was a very calming, kind of slow-motion kind of thing. It's almost like people describing car accidents, where eve"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 26, "text": "Oh, OK. And then you went to live with your grandparents in Chattanooga, where your mother eventually joined you. What was it like moving from the North to the South, or were you too young to notice the difference?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Geez, I don't know. Maybe some months, maybe less than a year old."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 27, "text": "Right, right, right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I never even - I was already there when I woke up and realized I was in the South, you know?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 28, "text": "Were your parents - grandparents or your mother strict with you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was an infant, so I don't know."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 29, "text": "When you say you were afraid of your grandparents and your mother, was that fear of their disapproval, or was there a more physical kind of punishment that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, everybody was. Yeah. I had a lot of restrictions. I had to be at home at a certain time. I had to make certain grades. I had to treat people with respect. I was expected to achieve certain thing"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 30, "text": "Now, I think I've made it clear that I love the way you speak. Did your family ever, like, try to correct your enunciation, or did you ever have a teacher who gave you a sense of diction? Or is that something that you just had - or maybe you got it in the theater? Maybe you were just that way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". There's something about getting, you know, hit and whipped with switches or whatever that kind of makes, you know, pain a motivator, especially when you're small. The interesting thing about that is"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 31, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I know, I do. Maybe we all don't, but I do sometimes. Or, you know, when people say, well, that's what he should have did. And you go, no, no, no."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 32, "text": "When you were growing up in Tennessee, did you see movies in segregated theaters?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's very simple. It's very simple, you know? So I was taught at a very early age how to speak, how to conjugate. And I guess learning to diagram sentences in that particular era was a great way of "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 33, "text": "Were there movies you couldn't see because they didn't come to the Black theaters?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. We had two theaters, the Liberty and the Grand, that were maybe a block from each other, where we went to the movies. We weren't allowed to go downtown to the theater, so I didn't even bother. I"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 34, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded with Samuel L. Jackson in 2000. We'll hear more of it after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. There were movies that were edited in specific ways for the whole South. I mean, they didn't just not show them in the Black community. They didn't show them that way in the white communities, eit"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 35, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with Samuel L. Jackson as we conclude our series, Classic Films and Movie Icons. When I spoke with him in 2000, Jackson talked about his obsessive personality, which didn't help when he began to develop a heavy cocaine habit in the 1980s - a habit he was able to kick after going to rehab.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. There were movies that were edited in specific ways for the whole South. I mean, they didn't just not show them in the Black community. They didn't show them that way in the white communities, eit"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 36, "text": "Do you think that that obsessive quality - you know, of, like, you have one, then you have six, also has a positive side through your acting? I mean, are you obsessive about learning parts and, you know, learning them and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's easy for me to understand who I am or to know what the message was people were trying to get to me when I got to rehab about me and understanding my personality. I mean, all the men in my family "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 37, "text": "...Doing the line readings just the way you want to do them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 38, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I'm as aggressive about my job and golf as I was about, you know, getting high and having the kind of fun that I used to have. I'm having a lot more fun now because I can remember what fun I had"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 39, "text": "My guest is Samuel L. Jackson. Let's listen to a clip from the 1991 film \"Jungle Fever,\" in which Jackson played a crack addict named Gator. He's pleading for money from his family - money they don't want to give him because they know how he'll use it. Here he is trying to wear them down.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I can talk to people about it. And nobody's calling me to say, do you really feel that way about me? What? What are you talking about? So it's better. When I used to wonder how I would live withou"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 40, "text": "Now, you had a special award at the Cannes Film Festival for your performance in \"Jungle Fever,\" in which you played a crack addict. Having been a cocaine user, were there things that you felt you really understood firsthand about, you know, someone who uses drugs that you could use in that role?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Gator, laughter). Come on. Hit me. Get some cash in my hand."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 41, "text": "Were you close to doing that - just burning a lot of bridges?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, definitely. I understood that it was easy to play the effects of being high and just do that on the surface of what's going on with Gator. But I also knew that the family dynamic and how people ru"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 42, "text": "You're kind of a sex symbol now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, definitely. I mean, I had used up, you know, everybody's friendship when I said, you know, oh, man, I'm broke - so on and so on and so on. I need some money to do this. People knew that, OK,"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 43, "text": "And I'm wondering if, like, you see your own body in a different way, you know, now that so many people, like, would desire you, do you know what I mean? Now that there's so many people who are, you know, imagining you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No kidding."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 44, "text": "I don't have to keep going, do I?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I know. Tell me. Tell me."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 45, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I know. Tell me. Tell me."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 46, "text": "So do you see yourself differently?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Tell me."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 47, "text": "Do you ever sit home alone and bored for a few minutes thinking, well, I may be bored now, but I know a lot of people are probably really thinking about me?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I see myself as the same guy I always was."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 48, "text": "And?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. But, you know, to be honest, I actually do, some days, walk the street, and I wonder how many people are going to recognize me today."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 49, "text": "My interview with Samuel L. Jackson was recorded in 2000. And that concludes our archive series, Classic Films and Movie Icons. Tomorrow, we're back to new interviews. If Kamala Harris wins the election, she'll be our second biracial president. What it means to be biracial, the meaning of race itself and how that keeps changing is the theme of the novels and the memoir by tomorrow's guest, Danzy Senna. Her mother is white and comes from an eminent Boston family. Her father is Black and grew up in an orphanage in Alabama. Danzy Senna was born in 1968, a year after the Supreme Court overturned all the state laws that outlawed interracial marriage. Her new novel is called \"Colored Television.\" I hope you'll join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram @nprfreshair.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Or I walk through crowds of people sometimes to see who will notice that I walked through that crowd. I do that. I mean, I'm not, you know, crazy enough to think that people aren't going to notice me,"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-02", "guest": "Samuel L Jackson", "title": "Celebrating movie icons: Samuel Jackson", "question_index": 50, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Heidi Saman, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi and Joel Wolfram. Special thanks to NPR Plus producer Nick Andersen. Our digital media producers are Molly Seavy-Nesper and Sabrina Siewert (ph). Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our cohost is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Or I walk through crowds of people sometimes to see who will notice that I walked through that crowd. I do that. I mean, I'm not, you know, crazy enough to think that people aren't going to notice me,"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-05", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Why anti-fascist vigilantes are infiltrating far-right white nationalist groups", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The January 6 attack on the Capitol and the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville are examples of how the threat of domestic terrorism is rising. Toward the end of Trump's presidency, the Department of Homeland Security warned that domestic violent extremists pose the most persistent and lethal threat to the nation, more so than foreign terrorists. FBI Director Christopher Wray told a Congressional committee that the threat was largely from followers of, quote, \"some kind of white supremacist-type ideology.\" There are limits to what the FBI can do to infiltrate extremist groups, largely based on the First Amendment. But recently, anti-fascist vigilantes have been going undercover to become members of white nationalist groups in order to conduct surveillance and gather information. They don't inform the FBI or other law enforcement officers about potential threats. They leak the information. Guest David Kirkpatrick recently wrote an in-depth piece in the New Yorker, investigating how these undercover vigilante spies operate, how they've crippled several white nationalist groups and led to the discharge of dozens of active duty military personnel. The story originated when Kirkpatrick was speaking with four FBI officials about the agency's approach to keeping track of the far right and trying to prevent violence and other threats. Kirkpatrick is a staff writer at the New Yorker. He has a long history of covering the right. His article is titled \"Infiltrating The Far Right.\" David Kirkpatrick, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Let's start with the case where an anti-fascist activist infiltrated the Patriot Front, which you describe as a white nationalist, neo-fascist, anti-government group. I want you to describe the group and its tactics.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-05", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Why anti-fascist vigilantes are infiltrating far-right white nationalist groups", "question_index": 1, "text": "They're supposed to never throw the first punch. But it seems that they egg on whoever they consider their opposition to throw the first punch so that way, the Patriot Front can fight them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Patriot Front is an interesting group because they're somewhat theatrical. Their signature are street demonstrations, where they gather together a few hundred young, white men in identical clothes "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-05", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Why anti-fascist vigilantes are infiltrating far-right white nationalist groups", "question_index": 2, "text": "They have a vetting process for new recruits, and one new recruit seemed like a perfect new recruit. His code name was Vincent Washington. He was actually an anti-fascist activist, posing as a white nationalist with the intent of exposing Patriot Front. What made him so convincing as a desirable recruit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, they officially oppose violence. At the same time, when they conduct these marches, often through racially diverse neighborhoods of big cities, they carry tall steel shields, and they look and f"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-05", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Why anti-fascist vigilantes are infiltrating far-right white nationalist groups", "question_index": 3, "text": "How did he get access to a lot of inside information, and how did he use it against Patriot Front?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he's a big guy. You know, he's more than six feet tall. He's quite heavily built. He's trained in martial arts, and he was very eager. You know, He had studied up on their doctrine, their manife"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-05", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Why anti-fascist vigilantes are infiltrating far-right white nationalist groups", "question_index": 4, "text": "So what is Unicorn Riot?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, as he became more trusted, especially in his capacity as a photographer and a kind of enthusiast for their white nationalist cause, he got access to their online chat groups, which they conducte"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-05", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Why anti-fascist vigilantes are infiltrating far-right white nationalist groups", "question_index": 5, "text": "So now, like other groups conducting anti-fascist surveillance, freelancers or vigilantes, if you want to call them that, are also giving the information they uncover to Unicorn Riot. It's been described as information laundering. What's meant by that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Unicorn Riot is an online publication that really specializes in capturing live footage of protests and crackdowns and disseminating it. Some of your listeners may be familiar with their work in Mi"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-05", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Why anti-fascist vigilantes are infiltrating far-right white nationalist groups", "question_index": 6, "text": "So how did Unicorn Riot become a clearinghouse for information uncovered during this kind of surveillance?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let's be frank. These anti-fascist activists are not police, and they're not journalists. You know, their methods involve deceit, going undercover, anonymity. They're not accountable for what they're "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-05", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Why anti-fascist vigilantes are infiltrating far-right white nationalist groups", "question_index": 7, "text": "We should take a short break here, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guess is David Kirkpatrick. We're talking about his article in the New Yorker titled \"Infiltrating The Far Right.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, after they decided that they were going to take it on as part of their business to keep an eye on the far right, they were contacted by someone who, on his own, had infiltrated the planning for "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-05", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Why anti-fascist vigilantes are infiltrating far-right white nationalist groups", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with David Kirkpatrick, a staff writer at the New Yorker. In his latest article, titled \"Infiltrating The Far Right,\" he reports on how vigilante anti-fascist spies are going undercover to become members of white nationalist groups in order to gather information to thwart violent actions and expose leaders and members of these far-right groups. So after Vincent Washington, the undercover anti-fascist who infiltrated Patriot Front - after he leaked that information, other anti-fascists took action. This was on December 4, 2021, when Patriot Front had a planned rally in Washington, D.C. So what was the action?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, after they decided that they were going to take it on as part of their business to keep an eye on the far right, they were contacted by someone who, on his own, had infiltrated the planning for "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-05", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Why anti-fascist vigilantes are infiltrating far-right white nationalist groups", "question_index": 9, "text": "What are other ways - the information that Vincent Washington leaked - what are other ways that that information was used to hold other people accountable under the law?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So you're exactly right. He did not just collect this information and share it with the Unicorn Riot. He also shared it with a bunch of his anti-fascist vigilante friends around the country. But aroun"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-05", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Why anti-fascist vigilantes are infiltrating far-right white nationalist groups", "question_index": 10, "text": "Did the FBI pick up on the information?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in a couple of places, civil rights lawyers have used that information to bring charges against Patriot Front members involved in street protests or clashes or vandalism by using the Ku Klux Kla"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-05", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Why anti-fascist vigilantes are infiltrating far-right white nationalist groups", "question_index": 11, "text": "What role did the leaks play in the lawsuit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I haven't seen the FBI take action in those cases, but there was one instance at the end of my reporting - I followed a few of these anti-fascist activists as they were, over a period of months, gathe"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-05", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Why anti-fascist vigilantes are infiltrating far-right white nationalist groups", "question_index": 12, "text": "You actually spoke with someone who infiltrated the organizers of the Unite the Right rally. And he spoke publicly to you for the first time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what the leaks showed was an elaborate series of very detailed conversations among these planners, where they were eager for a battle. They called it the Battle of Charlottesville. They were tal"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-05", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Why anti-fascist vigilantes are infiltrating far-right white nationalist groups", "question_index": 13, "text": "And like Vincent Washington, he did not tell the FBI what he found. How did he get the information out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Like a lot of these people, he really wanted to keep his head down, but enough time had passed that he felt comfortable telling the story. He'd almost stumbled into it. You know, this was pretty "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-05", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Why anti-fascist vigilantes are infiltrating far-right white nationalist groups", "question_index": 14, "text": "OK, we have to take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is David Kirkpatrick, and his latest article on the New Yorker is titled \"Infiltrating The Far Right.\" He's a staff writer at the magazine. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so on the eve of the Unite the Right rally, he and some of his anti-fascist friends called up Airbnb to call the company's attention to the fact that many of these white nationalist organizers w"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-05", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Why anti-fascist vigilantes are infiltrating far-right white nationalist groups", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with David Kirkpatrick, a staff writer at The New Yorker. In his latest article titled \"Infiltrating The Far Right,\" he reports on how vigilante anti-fascist spies are going undercover to become members of white nationalist groups in order to gather information to thwart violent actions and expose leaders and members of the group. In your article \"Infiltrating The Far Right,\" you also write about the FBI and what they can and cannot do to infiltrate extremist groups and to prevent future threats and crimes. So you talked to four FBI officials, who asked to remain anonymous, and talked to them about the restrictions that they face. One of those restrictions is actually the First Amendment, which we're all very happy to have in our Constitution. What are the problems the First Amendment poses for the FBI?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so on the eve of the Unite the Right rally, he and some of his anti-fascist friends called up Airbnb to call the company's attention to the fact that many of these white nationalist organizers w"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-05", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Why anti-fascist vigilantes are infiltrating far-right white nationalist groups", "question_index": 16, "text": "If there are groups like the Proud Boys, who are known to have engaged in violence, why can't the FBI do more?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, this is a really interesting question that I had not focused on as carefully before I sat down at FBI headquarters with these four officials. You - as you know, we Americans are very serious"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-05", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Why anti-fascist vigilantes are infiltrating far-right white nationalist groups", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yeah, and American intelligence agencies can track foreign terrorist groups in ways that they can't domestic groups that might come under the category of terrorist groups, and that's a good thing. You don't want those kinds of tools used against Americans. But it also thwarts the ability to find out what these extremist groups are doing and prevent violence.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's a good question. You know, I think the FBI would say, look, we try to consistently police the law in all cases without regard to ideology. If we see a person repeatedly engaging in violen"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-05", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Why anti-fascist vigilantes are infiltrating far-right white nationalist groups", "question_index": 18, "text": "Let me stop you there, 'cause that memo was leaked.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, and I - honestly, I have a great deal of empathy for the difficult position that the FBI finds itself in, you know, especially right now. We're at a moment when a certain portion of the Republic"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-05", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Why anti-fascist vigilantes are infiltrating far-right white nationalist groups", "question_index": 19, "text": "But the FBI slapped its own hand. I mean, Christopher Wray, the head of the FBI, was very critical of this memo. What was his point?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That memo was obtained by a House committee, which held hearings on it and denounced the FBI for targeting a religious group. And so that's a case where the FBI got their hand slapped for what others "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-05", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Why anti-fascist vigilantes are infiltrating far-right white nationalist groups", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yeah, you're not supposed to use the expression far-right white nationalist movement, which was a phrase that was used in that memo. What are you supposed to say?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, he was called to testify in front of Congress. And he was eager to say that we do not police religious groups, you know, I want no part of policing religious groups. Ideology is protecte"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-05", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Why anti-fascist vigilantes are infiltrating far-right white nationalist groups", "question_index": 21, "text": "You know, you write, as I sat in the FBI office, I was feeling increasingly secure in my freedom to espouse bigoted violence, were I so inclined, but less sure of my personal safety from extreme attacks. Then it got scarier. The four FBI officials described how digital technology had further diffused and compounded the threat. What did they tell you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it's funny when you talk to the FBI about this stuff. For me, I had to first sort of go through a kind of vocabulary lesson. I had to learn the vocabulary that they use because they never want to s"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-05", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Why anti-fascist vigilantes are infiltrating far-right white nationalist groups", "question_index": 22, "text": "My guest is David Kirkpatrick. We're talking about his article in The New Yorker titled \"Infiltrating The Far Right.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So what that means - and this is something that for law enforcement is very much old news. You know, the theme of the last 10 or 15 years for law enforcement has been radicalization online, that these"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-05", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Why anti-fascist vigilantes are infiltrating far-right white nationalist groups", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with David Kirkpatrick, a staff writer at The New Yorker. In his latest article, he reports on how vigilante antifascist spies are going undercover to become members of white nationalist groups in order to gather information, to thwart violent actions and expose leaders and members of the groups. So in your article, you say that Congress passed legislation that requires the FBI and the Department of Homeland Security to collect and share comprehensive data on domestic violent extremist crime. What are they doing to follow up on that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So what that means - and this is something that for law enforcement is very much old news. You know, the theme of the last 10 or 15 years for law enforcement has been radicalization online, that these"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-05", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Why anti-fascist vigilantes are infiltrating far-right white nationalist groups", "question_index": 24, "text": "The far right is using as one of its tools the Supreme Court decision Brandenburg v. Ohio, a 1969 decision. What's the case, and what's its significance? How is the far right using it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the FBI is continuing to use their politically neutral categories - you know, anti-government extremist, racially or ethnically motivated extremist - to the frustration of some of the people in "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-05", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Why anti-fascist vigilantes are infiltrating far-right white nationalist groups", "question_index": 25, "text": "What about shouting fire in a crowded theater? I mean, is that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So that's a case involving the Klu Klux Klan and a Klu Klux Klan leader. And the Supreme Court found that the First Amendment - yes, it protects expressing bigotry. But what's more, it also protects c"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-05", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Why anti-fascist vigilantes are infiltrating far-right white nationalist groups", "question_index": 26, "text": "And this is also where the lone wolves come in because there's a lot of impressionable people who hear these calls for violence, and even if it's not illegal to call for violence, if there's not a specific attack plan, the lone wolves can pick up on that and take on the responsibility themselves, which is what we're seeing happening.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's imminent incitement. And that's why from the FBI's point of view, this gets very treacherous - right? - because, yes, when someone is planning a specific attack, not only are they allowed"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-05", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Why anti-fascist vigilantes are infiltrating far-right white nationalist groups", "question_index": 27, "text": "My guest is David Kirkpatrick. We're talking about his article in the New Yorker, titled \"Infiltrating The Far Right.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's right. That's right. I think the FBI and the Department of Homeland Security have publicly said many times over the last decade that the number one threat right now is, one, domestic extr"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-05", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Why anti-fascist vigilantes are infiltrating far-right white nationalist groups", "question_index": 28, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with David Kirkpatrick, a staff writer at the New Yorker. In his latest article, titled \"Infiltrating The Far Right,\" he reports on how vigilante anti-fascist spies are going undercover to become members of white nationalist groups in order to gather information to thwart violent actions and expose leaders and members of the groups. What happened to Vincent Washington, the anti-fascist individual who infiltrated the white nationalist group Patriot Front? He was outed. Vincent Washington was just a code name. What happened to him after he was outed, and who outed him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's right. That's right. I think the FBI and the Department of Homeland Security have publicly said many times over the last decade that the number one threat right now is, one, domestic extr"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-05", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Why anti-fascist vigilantes are infiltrating far-right white nationalist groups", "question_index": 29, "text": "That is a very interesting turn of events. It shows how complicated this world is and how for every action, there's a reaction. So like, there's victories, which are followed by defeats.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So when Unicorn Riot published all the leaks that they had obtained through the person we're calling Vincent Washington, they carefully scrubbed his voice. In the recordings Vincent obtained, when the"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-05", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Why anti-fascist vigilantes are infiltrating far-right white nationalist groups", "question_index": 30, "text": "You've covered the far right in the U.S. on and off for years, at least 20 years. When you compare what's happening now to what happened when you started covering the far right, what differences do you see?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. There's one other interesting thing about Vincent Washington that I learned in reporting this article. We learned that after he had exposed Patriot Front, the FBI came calling some of his friend"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-05", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Why anti-fascist vigilantes are infiltrating far-right white nationalist groups", "question_index": 31, "text": "Well, David Kirkpatrick, I want to thank you so much for your reporting and for coming back to our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a really good question. When I first started covering the right 20 years ago, I was covering the right of the Republican Party and its allies. And honestly, that right is really gone. You know,"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-05", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Why anti-fascist vigilantes are infiltrating far-right white nationalist groups", "question_index": 32, "text": "David Kirkpatrick is a staff writer at the New Yorker. His latest article is titled \"Infiltrating The Far Right.\" If you'd like to catch up on interviews you've missed, like Tonya's conversation this week with Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. And to find out what's happening behind the scenes of our show and get our producers' recommendations for what to watch, read, and listen to, subscribe to our free newsletter at whyy.org/freshair.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's always a pleasure, even when the subject is somewhat grim."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-05", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "Why anti-fascist vigilantes are infiltrating far-right white nationalist groups", "question_index": 33, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Ann Marie Baldonado, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Susan Nyakundi and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producers are Molly Seavy-Nesper and Sabrina Siewert. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's always a pleasure, even when the subject is somewhat grim."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-06", "guest": "Wise Guy", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The Sopranos,' the series that changed TV", "question_index": 0, "text": "It seems to me that \"The Sopranos\" started off with a little bit more comedy and that it's become just more tragic for the characters as time goes on.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry spoke with David Chase in 2000."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-06", "guest": "Wise Guy", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The Sopranos,' the series that changed TV", "question_index": 1, "text": "You don't see it that way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know people have said that, and I didn't realize that. I don't see it that way, so it's very difficult."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-06", "guest": "Wise Guy", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The Sopranos,' the series that changed TV", "question_index": 2, "text": "The last show of the second season.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't. The last show, we did a sudden U-turn, if that's what people are talking about. That last show..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-06", "guest": "Wise Guy", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The Sopranos,' the series that changed TV", "question_index": 3, "text": "Let's hear a scene between Tony and his psychiatrist, Dr. Melfi, from about three episodes from the end of last season. And this gets a little bit to what you're talking about. This conversation isn't about Tony's mother. It's about who Tony is,and the kind of problems he's responsible for of his own volition in, you know, the work that he's doing and in the crimes that he's committing. So here's Tony with Dr. Melfi.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The last show of the second season. In that, there was a plan - we had a plan for Tony's emotional growth, or lack of growth, throughout the first season. The idea we carried over from the first seaso"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-06", "guest": "Wise Guy", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The Sopranos,' the series that changed TV", "question_index": 4, "text": "The scene from \"The Sopranos.\" My guest is the creator and executive producer of the series, David Chase. Where does that scene take us in the development of Tony?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Jennifer Melfi) They have time to think about their behavior - how what they do affects other people, about feelings of emptiness and self-loathing haunting them since childhood. And they crash."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-06", "guest": "Wise Guy", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The Sopranos,' the series that changed TV", "question_index": 5, "text": "We...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was intended to be building toward some sort of conclusion or some kind of self-awareness on Tony's part that he - that it's no longer - you can no longer blame your parents, your mother. You"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-06", "guest": "Wise Guy", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The Sopranos,' the series that changed TV", "question_index": 6, "text": "Well, you're so lucky to have found, in James Gandolfini, someone who has such an interesting face to watch, and his face is kind of mercurial. I mean, although I'm sure he's trying not to betray what he's thinking, you can see what he's thinking on his face. And sometimes he looks very weak and vulnerable, and sometimes he's incredibly cold-blooded-looking. How did you find him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I felt compassion for the guy."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-06", "guest": "Wise Guy", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The Sopranos,' the series that changed TV", "question_index": 7, "text": "Oh, and let me ask you one thing, too. In terms of looking for him, you've cast at the center of the series someone who is a very charismatic actor, but he's not a leading man kind of looking actor. He's got a pot belly, receding hairline, pudgy face. It's not Al Pacino.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-06", "guest": "Wise Guy", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The Sopranos,' the series that changed TV", "question_index": 8, "text": "There's something very average-guy-looking about him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I always go for the actor. If the actor who came in to read for this part had been Cary Grant and it had worked, I probably would have said, fine, let's do that. But we didn't. What really we were"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-06", "guest": "Wise Guy", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The Sopranos,' the series that changed TV", "question_index": 9, "text": "Edie Falco plays the role of Carmela. What did you tell Edie Falco about the character of Carmela after you casted her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it's more than that. I think - I don't think he is that average. I think there's a - I think he is a very, very sensitive, hypersensitive man, and I think he reflects his environment in a very, ve"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-06", "guest": "Wise Guy", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The Sopranos,' the series that changed TV", "question_index": 10, "text": "Was Carmela...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nothing, absolutely nothing - just comes in, does her work."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-06", "guest": "Wise Guy", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The Sopranos,' the series that changed TV", "question_index": 11, "text": "When you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No direction - honest to God, no direction, no nothing."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-06", "guest": "Wise Guy", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The Sopranos,' the series that changed TV", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, here's a scene between Carmela and Tony from \"The Sopranos.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's the case with most of these actors. There's very little directing going on."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-06", "guest": "Wise Guy", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The Sopranos,' the series that changed TV", "question_index": 13, "text": "My guest is David Chase, and he's the creator and executive producer of \"The Sopranos.\" When you were growing up, were there movies that really scared the heck out of you, but you couldn't take your eyes off of them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Tony Soprano) No, only you care."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-06", "guest": "Wise Guy", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The Sopranos,' the series that changed TV", "question_index": 14, "text": "What was it that was so scary?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, of course, yes. That's the kind of movies I always liked. As I said, I was a scaredy kid, and yet horror movies and scary movies, to me, were - I could not get enough of them. And I think I found "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-06", "guest": "Wise Guy", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The Sopranos,' the series that changed TV", "question_index": 15, "text": "Lorraine Bracco, welcome to FRESH AIR. Now, David Chase, the creator of \"The Sopranos,\" wanted you to play Carmela, Tony's wife, when the series was starting, but you turned that down. It's such a big part and such a great part. You say in your book that you didn't want to play another mob wife, after you became so famous for that in \"Goodfellas.\" But I still think that must have been really hard, to turn that down. Did you ever have second thoughts about turning it down, seeing what a great role it was?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Jennifer Melfi) OK. But I have to point out what you resent Carmela doing for A.J. - protecting him from his father - is the very thing you had often wished your mother had done for you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-06", "guest": "Wise Guy", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The Sopranos,' the series that changed TV", "question_index": 16, "text": "Now, when the series started, you were going through a terrible depression, which you write about in your new memoir. You were going through a bad separation with Harvey Keitel, who you'd been with for years. You had a daughter together, and you were having a custody battle over your daughter. Oh, and you were very, very deep in debt, like $2 million, in part because of the steep legal fees that you had to pay. And you finally went into therapy. Did therapy help you through that depression?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, again, you know, with David, when we talked about it, I did it. I didn't think I could do it any better. And Melfi jumped off the page for me. I thought she was an Italian American edu"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-06", "guest": "Wise Guy", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The Sopranos,' the series that changed TV", "question_index": 17, "text": "What did the therapy - since you're playing a therapist now and have to really think about the value and the limitations of therapy, what did the therapy do for you? What are some of the insights that it gave you that you could actually use to change your life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes, it did. And medication helped me."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-06", "guest": "Wise Guy", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The Sopranos,' the series that changed TV", "question_index": 18, "text": "Now, you first became really well-known for your role in \"Goodfellas\" as Karen Hill - you know, the woman who becomes the wife of the wise guy of the film, the small-time mobster Henry Hill. It was directed by Martin Scorsese, who you already knew through your longtime partner, Harvey Keitel. So you say in your book that, you know, you had auditioned for one of Scorsese's earlier movies. And he didn't give you that part, but he said he would give you a part someday, and \"Goodfellas\" was that someday. And you also say that you didn't exactly audition for it. What was - if it wasn't an audition, exactly, what was it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right. Well, you know, when you ask that question, my mind is going all over the place. A couple of things I want you to know. David Chase has been through therapy. And when I met David and we tal"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-06", "guest": "Wise Guy", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The Sopranos,' the series that changed TV", "question_index": 19, "text": "I want to play a scene from \"Goodfellas,\" and this is a scene - you and Henry Hill have recently married, but you're living in - you're both living in your parents' house. And in this scene, Henry Hill has been out all night, and it's not the first time. And your mother is really mad at him, and I think she's kind of mad at you for marrying him in the first place. So this is a...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Marty had met me. He knew me. I had already worked a little bit, so I - so he'd seen me on the screen. And what he did was he had me come up to his apartment and meet him and Ray Liotta. And we "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-06", "guest": "Wise Guy", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The Sopranos,' the series that changed TV", "question_index": 20, "text": "...Scene with you and your mother.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-06", "guest": "Wise Guy", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The Sopranos,' the series that changed TV", "question_index": 21, "text": "I don't know.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And just - I know this has got nothing to do with nothing, but you realize Suzanne Shepherd, who plays my mother in \"Goodfellas,\" plays - come on, Terry. Come on - it's a great trivia question."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-06", "guest": "Wise Guy", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The Sopranos,' the series that changed TV", "question_index": 22, "text": "No, really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Plays Edie's mother in \"Sopranos.\""}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-06", "guest": "Wise Guy", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The Sopranos,' the series that changed TV", "question_index": 23, "text": "I didn't realize that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Same actress."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-06", "guest": "Wise Guy", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The Sopranos,' the series that changed TV", "question_index": 24, "text": "Oh, you got me. That's great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ah, see?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-06", "guest": "Wise Guy", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The Sopranos,' the series that changed TV", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well, that's great. Well, let's hear the scene. And we can think about that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right, just a little trivia."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-06", "guest": "Wise Guy", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The Sopranos,' the series that changed TV", "question_index": 26, "text": "...As we listen.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right, just a little trivia."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-06", "guest": "Wise Guy", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The Sopranos,' the series that changed TV", "question_index": 27, "text": "That's my guest Lorraine Bracco with Suzanne Shepherd in a scene from \"Goodfellas.\" I have another question about Dr. Melfi. One of the things I sometimes wonder about Dr. Melfi is this. When seeing Tony Soprano, would she really be wearing skirts and stockings that reveal her very beautiful legs? Or would she be trying to be as, like, nonsexual as possible in a therapy relationship like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Karen's Mother) Will you leave him out of this? He's suffered enough. The man hasn't been able to digest a decent meal in six weeks."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-06", "guest": "Wise Guy", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The Sopranos,' the series that changed TV", "question_index": 28, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK, so I have a couple of things on the subject. Are you ready?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-06", "guest": "Wise Guy", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The Sopranos,' the series that changed TV", "question_index": 29, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One, Terry..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-06", "guest": "Wise Guy", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The Sopranos,' the series that changed TV", "question_index": 30, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And Mr. Gandolfini goes to our fantastic costume designer, Juliet, and begs her to shorten my skirts."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-06", "guest": "Wise Guy", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The Sopranos,' the series that changed TV", "question_index": 31, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just so you know - a little artistic license there. You know, if you know me and if you meet me, you will see I'm a much more alive woman than Dr. Melfi. And I have a big sexuality about me. So Dr. Me"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-06", "guest": "Wise Guy", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The Sopranos,' the series that changed TV", "question_index": 32, "text": "Lorraine Bracco, thanks so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have to get rid of me to make her."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-06", "guest": "Wise Guy", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The Sopranos,' the series that changed TV", "question_index": 33, "text": "When you started working on the sopranos, was most of your knowledge about the mob from movies and TV shows?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm kind of a younger, more hot-headed, impulsive young mobster who wants to be made into the Mafia, which means officially become a member and go through the oath and ritual, which assures you a life"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-06", "guest": "Wise Guy", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The Sopranos,' the series that changed TV", "question_index": 34, "text": "What kind of neighborhood did you grow up in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah, I mean, I had done a couple of roles, and for those roles, I did a lot of research. So I guess just the life and the kind of characterizations and the type of people is something that I wa"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-06", "guest": "Wise Guy", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The Sopranos,' the series that changed TV", "question_index": 35, "text": "Were there guys who were rumored to be in the Mafia or guys who you knew for sure were?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I grew up in a mostly Italian neighborhood in Mount Vernon, which is right on the border of the Bronx in New York."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-06", "guest": "Wise Guy", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The Sopranos,' the series that changed TV", "question_index": 36, "text": "And what was your attitude toward them? Were they people you looked up to or people you wanted to stay away from?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There were guys who were connected to them, but not guys who I would say, like, were made guys, who were part of the family that lived in my immediate neighborhood. No."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-06", "guest": "Wise Guy", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The Sopranos,' the series that changed TV", "question_index": 37, "text": "Now, you - before \"The Sopranos,\" you had a small part in \"Goodfellas,\" one of Martin Scorsese's movies about the mob, about people at the lower echelon. Describe your part in \"Goodfellas.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, when we were kids growing up, \"The Godfather\" was like hero - you know, that was hero worship to us. \"The Godfather\" kind of made us proud to be Italian because, I mean, we didn't look"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-06", "guest": "Wise Guy", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The Sopranos,' the series that changed TV", "question_index": 38, "text": "Then you get shot.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I played a kid who worked in the social club where these wise guys hung out. And specifically, you see me serving drinks at a card game. I may go buy them a sandwich if they wanted to make them a sand"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-06", "guest": "Wise Guy", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The Sopranos,' the series that changed TV", "question_index": 39, "text": "Let's hear an excerpt of that scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, that was based on a true story, apparently, from what I understand - that there was a character who was this kid. And one of the guys kind of was getting a little hot under the collar and "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-06", "guest": "Wise Guy", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The Sopranos,' the series that changed TV", "question_index": 40, "text": "When the Joe Pesci character is really going over the edge as he's shooting at you, did you feel that Joe Pesci was really doing something transformational in himself in that scene?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Tommy DeVito) That's what the f***ing world is coming to. How do you like that?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-06", "guest": "Wise Guy", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The Sopranos,' the series that changed TV", "question_index": 41, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no. I mean, I was - I mean, you get into it, and, you know, you're doing your thing. I mean, I think I was too involved in my thing to, like, be taken out of it and think, wow, he's really going s"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-06", "guest": "Wise Guy", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The Sopranos,' the series that changed TV", "question_index": 42, "text": "Sounds to me like a very effective way to get by the triage nurse.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And as they rushed me to the hospital and as I went into the hospital, they rushed at me and put me on a stretcher. And I'm trying to explain to them that it was my hand, and they just thought it was "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-12", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "How Democrats and Republicans are gearing up for a post-election legal fight", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Democrats and Republicans are gearing up for legal battles over who won the presidential election. Trump has repeated his claim that the only way he can lose is if there's voter fraud. He's urged police officers to be on the lookout for voter fraud, but doing so may violate some state laws. Democrats are concerned that the facts may be irrelevant, as they were in 2020, if Trump claims to have won despite all evidence against that claim. Both parties have enlisted hundreds of lawyers. Georgia is one of the most closely watched battleground states because the State Election Board has new, expanded powers, and the majority of members are aligned with the far right of the Republican Party. My guest is Nick Corasaniti, a national political correspondent for The New York Times focusing on voting and elections. I was also surprised and delighted to find he's also the author of a new book about the club in Asbury Park where Southside Johnny got his start, the club which Springsteen and Steven Van Zandt called home. The book is called \"I Don't Want To Go Home: The Oral History Of The Stone Pony.\" Stone Pony was the name of the club. Springsteen wrote the introduction. We'll save time to talk about the book. Corasaniti lives in Asbury Park and Brooklyn. Nick Corasaniti, welcome to FRESH AIR. Why do you think lawsuits are inevitable no matter which party wins?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-12", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "How Democrats and Republicans are gearing up for a post-election legal fight", "question_index": 1, "text": "Trump has said that the only way he'd lose is if there's voter fraud. What is he doing to create the suspicion of voting fraud, even though no one has even voted yet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think all we have to do is look at what's been happening this entire year. You know, if we go back to the 2020 election, which was so defined in that postelection period by dozens of lawsuits, by th"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-12", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "How Democrats and Republicans are gearing up for a post-election legal fight", "question_index": 2, "text": "He's threatened that election workers are among the people who could be accused of election fraud and prosecuted. What are you hearing from election workers about their fears of being prosecuted?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What the former president has been doing is pretty consistent with almost what he's been doing since 2016, which is casting doubt on the electoral process and focusing very specifically on certain met"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-12", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "How Democrats and Republicans are gearing up for a post-election legal fight", "question_index": 3, "text": "So Trump recently spoke to the Fraternal Order of Police, and he urged them to watch out for voter fraud. Let's hear what he said.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's been a mix of, I think, defiance but then also, you know, resignation and frustration. They're all saying, this isn't going to affect how we do our job. You know, we're here to count the votes or"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-12", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "How Democrats and Republicans are gearing up for a post-election legal fight", "question_index": 4, "text": "Nick, is that voter intimidation? He's telling the police that these fraudulent voters are afraid of police, implying that the police should use that fear to find voter fraud so that Trump can win.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're in serious trouble if you get caught trying to find out what are the real results of an election. It's an amazing thing. Do you ever see that? They go after the people that are looking at the c"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-12", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "How Democrats and Republicans are gearing up for a post-election legal fight", "question_index": 5, "text": "What role are police supposed to play in an election?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it - certainly, were it to be carried out - would be challenged by voting rights groups, Democrats and probably even some Republicans - that that would amount to voter intimidation. It's also "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-12", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "How Democrats and Republicans are gearing up for a post-election legal fight", "question_index": 6, "text": "Who is supposed to watch out for voter fraud?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The way that it's been described to me by a lot of, you know, kind of democracy groups is a willing partner to kind of help make sure everything is safe while also making sure that their presence isn'"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-12", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "How Democrats and Republicans are gearing up for a post-election legal fight", "question_index": 7, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Nick Corasaniti, a national politics correspondent for The New York Times, covering voting and elections. We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a combination of, you know, poll watchers, poll workers, election officials, secretaries of state, and law enforcement. And it's something that's kind of been, I think, warped a lot over the past"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-12", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "How Democrats and Republicans are gearing up for a post-election legal fight", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Nick Corasaniti, national politics reporter for The New York Times, who's covering voting and elections. Do you have any sense of what lessons Republicans think they learned from Republican attempts to overturn the results of the 2020 election, what they're likely to try again or improve on, or what strategies they're likely to abandon because they failed badly in 2020? I think one thing that, you know, a lot of those who worked with former President Trump to try and overturn his 2020 loss, who are still involved in the process, they realized that they were kind of ill-prepared in terms of gathering evidence to back up their claims. You know, so many of the court challenges that were filed in the post-election period in 2020 fell apart under scrutiny without any evidence. A lot of the claims were kind of done in real time. And so what I think some of this pre-election litigation and actions and voter challenges is leading up to is to create that kind of evidence or preponderance of evidence, I should probably say, that they didn't have in 2020, in the event of a loss, if they do decide to try and challenge it, they can point back to these things. And that was something that they did not have in 2020. So swing states are likely to determine who wins the presidential election. One of the key swing states is Georgia. And Georgia surprised people by going for Biden in 2020. Trump tried to overturn the results. There was that infamous phone call to Georgia Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger on January 2, 2021, in which he asked the Secretary of State to help him find 11,780 votes, which is what Trump needed to win the state. He also tried to convince Georgia Governor Brian Kemp to use emergency powers to block the certification of the results. Now Democrats are worried that the Georgia state election board, which now has a majority aligned with the far right of the Republican Party, is going to interfere with the results of the election. You describe the three new members of the state election board in Georgia as aligned with the far right of the Republican Party. Why do they fit that description?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a combination of, you know, poll watchers, poll workers, election officials, secretaries of state, and law enforcement. And it's something that's kind of been, I think, warped a lot over the past"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-12", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "How Democrats and Republicans are gearing up for a post-election legal fight", "question_index": 9, "text": "My understanding is that - maybe this is a cynical version of it, but part of the reason that the board has expanded powers is to take power away from Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger, who declined to help Trump overturn the results of the election in 2020.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The rules that they've been passing have been very closely aligned with some of the priorities out of either the kind of right-wing network of election activists or, you know, kind of right-wing think"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-12", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "How Democrats and Republicans are gearing up for a post-election legal fight", "question_index": 10, "text": "So Trump was at a rally in Georgia in August in which he praised the new far-right members of the board. Let's hear what he had to say.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That indeed has been the consequence of a law passed in Georgia in 2021 in the immediate aftermath of the 2020 election when lots of Republicans and Trump supporters were very angry with Secretary Raf"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-12", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "How Democrats and Republicans are gearing up for a post-election legal fight", "question_index": 11, "text": "Nick, it seems like praising very partisan members of the Georgia State Election Board isn't the most ethical thing to do. I mean, isn't the election board supposed to be fair and nonpartisan, and shouldn't a candidate not be singling out certain members for praise because of their positions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know if you've heard, but the Georgia State Election Board is in a very positive way. This is a very positive thing, largely. They're on fire. They're doing a great job. Three members - Janice"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-12", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "How Democrats and Republicans are gearing up for a post-election legal fight", "question_index": 12, "text": "What can the state election board in Georgia do to refuse to certify or to delay certification past the December 11 deadline? And if they did that, that would disenfranchise all Georgia voters.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's important to step back and just think about how rare this is. You know, presidential candidates, as they, you know, bounce back and forth from different swing states, they're talking abou"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-12", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "How Democrats and Republicans are gearing up for a post-election legal fight", "question_index": 13, "text": "Are there election workers who are very confused about what they're supposed to be doing now with these new rules?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That would be the worst case scenario. I think what's important to understand is the Georgia State Election Board itself does not have a specified role in certification. That happens at the local coun"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-12", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "How Democrats and Republicans are gearing up for a post-election legal fight", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here. Then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Nick Corasaniti, national politics reporter for The New York Times, covering voting and elections. He's also the author of a new book about the club in Asbury Park that Springsteen and Steve Van Zandt called home. It's also the club that launched the career of Southside Johnny. The book is called \"I Don't Want To Go Home: The Oral History Of The Stone Pony.\" We'll talk about that after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I was in Georgia for a training that the secretary of state held for election officials across the state. And almost universally, they expressed frustration with the state election board, no"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-12", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "How Democrats and Republicans are gearing up for a post-election legal fight", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Nick Corasaniti, a national politics reporter for The New York Times who covers voting and elections. He's also the author of the new book \"I Don't Want To Go Home: The Oral History Of The Stone Pony.\" The Stone Pony is the club in Asbury Park that Springsteen and Steve Van Zandt called home and that launched the career of Southside Johnny. A recent law in Georgia expanded the ability of citizens to challenge a voter's eligibility. How would somebody else know whether you're eligible to vote or not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Light's out tonight - trouble in the heartland. Got a head-on collision smashing in my guts, man. Caught in a crossfire that I don't understand. But there's one thing I know for sure, girl. "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-12", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "How Democrats and Republicans are gearing up for a post-election legal fight", "question_index": 16, "text": "Are there fears that this will lead to spying on neighbors or intimidating neighbors?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This gets at what's been one of the biggest movements, I think, among right-wing activists over the past four years, and that's this idea that regular citizens can do their own investigations and then"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-12", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "How Democrats and Republicans are gearing up for a post-election legal fight", "question_index": 17, "text": "Describe for us, if you could, the teams of lawyers that Democrats and Republicans have gearing up for challenges to the election results.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, there was a lawsuit. You know, there was an organization in Georgia, True the Vote, that challenged over 300,000 voter registrations or voter eligibility in the 2021 Senate runoff for Senators J"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-12", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "How Democrats and Republicans are gearing up for a post-election legal fight", "question_index": 18, "text": "Let's take a short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Nick Corasaniti. He covers elections and voting for The New York Times, and he's the author of the new book \"I Don't Want To Go Home: The Oral History Of The Stone Pony.\" The Stone Pony is the club that Springsteen and Steve Van Zandt called home in Asbury Park, and it's also the club that launched the career of Southside Johnny. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So this election is notable just in how public and pronounced the legal teams are for both sides. And, you know, both the Harris campaign and the Trump campaign and the Republican National Committee a"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-12", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "How Democrats and Republicans are gearing up for a post-election legal fight", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Nick Corasaniti. He covers elections and voting for The New York Times. He's also the author of a new book called \"I Don't Want To Go Home: The Oral History Of The Stone Pony.\" So I want to talk with you about your new book 'cause I was so surprised that Nick Corasaniti, the New York Times political reporter covering elections, also has this book about the club in Asbury Park that launched Southside Johnny's career, where Springsteen and Steve Van Zandt - the place they called home. What inspired you to write it? What did that club mean in your life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So this election is notable just in how public and pronounced the legal teams are for both sides. And, you know, both the Harris campaign and the Trump campaign and the Republican National Committee a"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-12", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "How Democrats and Republicans are gearing up for a post-election legal fight", "question_index": 20, "text": "The dedication of your book says, (reading) for dad - thanks for the music, the greatest gift, and for braving the mosh pits. Did you go with him to the Stone Pony? Did he actually come in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So my experience with both the Stone Pony and Asbury Park start in the very late '90s. I was very into punk music, and, you know, I was going to this place on the shore to see the Warped Tour or bands"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-12", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "How Democrats and Republicans are gearing up for a post-election legal fight", "question_index": 21, "text": "Bruce Springsteen wrote the intro to your book, and he says that he spent time at the Stone Pony right through the height of his popularity. And he writes, (reading) staying local through the crazy high times was the smartest thing I ever did. Did you see him one of the times when he returned to the Stone Pony and actually played there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He did. I have a amazing dad who instilled a love of music in me, you know, when I was born really. But, you know, he was willing to go to - when I said, I want to go to this concert - it's called the"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-12", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "How Democrats and Republicans are gearing up for a post-election legal fight", "question_index": 22, "text": "There's a great story in your book about how Steve Van Zandt got the band a gig there. The policy had always been that bands had to play top 40 covers. And so how did Steve Van Zandt change that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it's kind of the unofficial motto of the Stone Pony. I also think it's, like, this wonderful saying of, like, kind of always having a degree of hope and a degree of surprise when you go to see liv"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-12", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "How Democrats and Republicans are gearing up for a post-election legal fight", "question_index": 23, "text": "What did it do for you personally to be writing this book about the club, the Stone Pony, in Asbury Park while at the same time covering elections and politics for The New York Times?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think Stevie called it one of the greatest coups in rock music history. But the way all Jersey Shore bars worked at the time was you came in and - exactly - you played top 40. You did cover ba"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-12", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "How Democrats and Republicans are gearing up for a post-election legal fight", "question_index": 24, "text": "Let's take a short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Nick Corasaniti. He covers elections and voting for The New York Times. And he's the author of the new book \"I Don't Want To Go Home: The Oral History Of The Stone Pony.\" The Stone Pony is a club that Springsteen and Steve Van Zandt called home in Asbury Park, and it's also the club that launched the career of Southside Johnny. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was a wonderful refuge 'cause sometimes, you know, what we cover in politics can get very dark, contentious. You know, I get emails that can be pretty harsh. And so to be able to step back "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-12", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "How Democrats and Republicans are gearing up for a post-election legal fight", "question_index": 25, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Nick Corasaniti. He covers elections and voting for The New York Times. He's also the author of a new book called \"I Don't Want To Go Home: The Oral History Of The Stone Pony.\" That's the club in Asbury Park that Springsteen and Steve Van Zandt called home, and that launched the career of Southside Johnny. You know, in some ways, writing this book about the Stone Pony, the club in Asbury Park, and also covering elections and voting and democracy for The New York Times, seems like two really different things. However, there's a lot of music groups who have gotten into the game of endorsing candidates. That seems to be happening more and more. And you write about that - like, right after the debate, like minutes after the debate on Tuesday, Taylor Swift endorsed Kamala Harris, and you wrote about that. You've written about other groups who have endorsed political candidates. Tell me more about how those two parts of your life are intersecting now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was a wonderful refuge 'cause sometimes, you know, what we cover in politics can get very dark, contentious. You know, I get emails that can be pretty harsh. And so to be able to step back "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-12", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "How Democrats and Republicans are gearing up for a post-election legal fight", "question_index": 26, "text": "Since you think a lot about musicians who endorse candidates and the music that candidates use in their own rallies, can you explain how Trump decided to use the Village People's \"YMCA\" as one of the songs that he always played at rallies? I mean, they were kind of like this - I don't know who the members of the group are as people, but the image of the band was this very gay group and their songs had various gay subtexts or texts depending depending on who you were and how you read the lyrics. But it just seemed like such a strange choice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. I mean, I think especially in the social media era, there's pressure on artists with a platform and with a voice to use it. And that has often resulted in, you know, political endorsements. I th"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-12", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "How Democrats and Republicans are gearing up for a post-election legal fight", "question_index": 27, "text": "Finally, I would like to end with a Springsteen song that has personal significance for you. So what would you like to choose?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think one thing that, you know, Trump is very into, believe it or not, is playlists. If you talk to a lot of his supporters who talk about their experience with him in Mar-a-Lago, he's constantly se"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-12", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "How Democrats and Republicans are gearing up for a post-election legal fight", "question_index": 28, "text": "All right, let's end with it. Nick Corasaniti, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God, that's such an intense question. I think what I always revert to is \"Atlantic City\" because I love the storytelling in it. I think it's just so important to kind of understand how much of "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-12", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "How Democrats and Republicans are gearing up for a post-election legal fight", "question_index": 29, "text": "Nick Corasaniti is a national politics reporter for The New York Times covering voting and elections. He's also the author of the new book \"I Don't Want To Go Home: The Oral History Of The Stone Pony.\" That's the club in Asbury Park that Springsteen and Steve Van Zandt called Home and that launched the career of Southside Johnny. Here is Bruce Springsteen.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thanks for having me."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-12", "guest": "Nick Corasaniti", "title": "How Democrats and Republicans are gearing up for a post-election legal fight", "question_index": 30, "text": "If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, like this week's interviews with comic Taylor Tomlinson, host of the late night show \"After Midnight,\" or with the authors of the new book \"Character Limit: How Elon Musk Destroyed Twitter,\" or last week's interview with Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. And to find out what's happening behind the scenes of our show and get our producers' recommendations for what to watch, read and listen to, subscribe to our free newsletter at whyy.org/freshair. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Ann Marie Baldonado, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Susan Nyakundi and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producers are Molly Seavy-Nesper and Sabrina Siewert. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Well, they blew up the Chicken Man in Philly last night. Now, they blew up his house, too. Down on the boardwalk, they're getting ready for a fight, going to see what them racket boys can do"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 0, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did the basics. I was able to function as a farm kid, doing all those chores where you call animals. And I think I had my best conversations with the dog, who was a good friend of mine and didn't ch"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 1, "text": "Why - I mean, did you not want to speak, or did you feel physically unable to speak?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I certainly let the family know what I - what my needs were, but when strangers came to the house, the mute happened. I didn't want to confront them, and I wasn't ready. I hid in the state of mute"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 2, "text": "'Cause of the stutter?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was just too embarrassing..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 3, "text": "Can you tell us the story of how you started speaking again?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And too difficult. Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 4, "text": "Donald Crouch was your teacher.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Donald Crouch was an associate of..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 5, "text": "What was it about having words written down for you that made it easier for you to speak?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah - Robert Frost. He was a college professor, but he ended up in this high school because he retired. He was a Mennonite farmer, and he retired to his farm in Brethren, Mich. And the idea that ther"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 6, "text": "So how - does the stutter come back very much for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not that they're written down, but that they're rhythmic. I think you'll find many stutterers today. I'm trying to think of the country-western singer who is a stutterer, but does not stutter when he "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You've heard it several times now. It's always with me, you know? And I have to be careful not to talk too fast. It certainly becomes a problem whenever I do something emotional, whether in real life "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 8, "text": "Has your Othello ever stuttered?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Joy or pain, and that often leads to overload, and I have to be very careful. There was a time when my acting was affected by it. I think Gladys Vaughan was the first to notice it. She says, when y"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, my - none of my characters have ever stuttered, except for the very first thing I did on Broadway. I played the role of Edward - FDR's house boy, valet - as a young man. And I had the line, Mrs. R"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ma."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 11, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "? But, of course, it's so ridiculous. And Mary Fickett, who was playing Eleanor Roosevelt, was very patient. She just stood there and let me get through it. She knew the audience knew that something w"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 12, "text": "Now, what was it like in your early days as an actor before you had the reputation, before you were James Earl Jones? And you'd go and talk to a casting director, and you'd be stuttering when talking to them. And then you'd have to somehow convince them that onstage, you were going to be fine. I mean, casting directors, I'm sure, are pretty insecure about that kind of thing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So she let me have my moment. I got through it. And it's never happened since."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 13, "text": "Oh, a part of, like, emotional truth, that you're grasping so hard for that truth that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, that was never a problem. I don't know why, but it never was. And to the - besides, Marlon Brando and all the method actors had made stuttering a part of the way Americans talk."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 14, "text": "...Yeah, could you give us a sense of the kinds of exercises or the type of training that you had that helped you find the power in your voice, because you have a very powerful voice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 15, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, the exercises were - I got to move back a bit."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 16, "text": "That's something you did on the farm without having to go to a voice coach.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sooie, pig, pig, pig - hog calling, cattle calling."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 17, "text": "From calling the animals.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My dad always said that the reason he became an actor was because even in grade school, and he didn't have a whole lot of it - but even in grade school, he was the loudest kid in class."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 18, "text": "So you think you developed that power on the farm long before acting classes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that's kind of true, though. Farm kids are never told, hush, you'll wake the neighbors. Farm kids are told, use your voice to get those cows in here."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 19, "text": "How it resonates in the head and everything.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And also, it is also genetic. I inherited whatever resonating chambers my father possesses. They're not too dissimilar from Paul Robeson and another actor of my generation, Geoffrey Holder. So w"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 20, "text": "I think some of the advice that your voice teacher gave you is to not use the full power of your voice, to save some of it in reserve.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, in the head and in the body. Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 21, "text": "You father was an actor. He was a boxer first, then he became an actor. But it sounds like your family wasn't really proud of that. I mean, you were raised by your grandparents. They didn't seem at all proud of it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's just good acting. Once you take your character to the limit, the audience can tell that he has no more. There's nothing in reserve. And they get less interested. There's less suspense abo"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 22, "text": "What about the acting part of his career? It sounds like your...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think they would've been proud. They became later proud of Joe Louis. And I think my grandfather was secretly proud of Jack Johnson as he was of Satchel Paige, the baseball player."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 23, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what I'm getting at it is..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 24, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They just didn't understand it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 25, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was hard enough for them to understand a prizefighter..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 26, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Making a real, honest living."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 27, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Much less a troubadour, actor. I mean, that was just not within comprehension. These are people who - we got our life from the soil. And I'm very proud of that, that I had that, I shared that kind of "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 28, "text": "I guess that's part of the reason why you ended up being brought up by your grandparents.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And were very intolerant of him and very resistant to my ever meeting him. I didn't get to meet him till I was 21, till I was legal age. And my mother was a part of that, too. It was a very bad marria"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 29, "text": "In your memoir, \"Voices And Silences,\" you devote a total of about a paragraph to \"Star Wars\"...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're listening to Terry's 1993 interview with James Earl Jones. He died Monday at the age of 93."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 30, "text": "...To your voice as Darth Vader. And I got the impression that it's not something you really want to call that much attention to.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're listening to Terry's 1993 interview with James Earl Jones. He died Monday at the age of 93."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 31, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Are you kidding? Not true. It's just that I have very little to talk about."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 32, "text": "You got a flat fee.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Had I been one of the actors and given points, I would not only be wealthy, I'd be probably much better known."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 33, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. I think George Lucas, first of all, realized that although David Prowse was the actor he wanted, it was not the sound he wanted. So he searched around for a technically and symbolically a da"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 34, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "None of us knew what we had, you know?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 35, "text": "In \"The Exorcist.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that was fine. Almost, not out of embarrassment, but out of his non-traditional traditional capitalism, or lack of capitalism, George gave me a Christmas bonus that amounted to the same amount of "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 36, "text": "Forgive me. I know this is a small part of your career, but I have to ask you about the CNN voice. The first time someone said to me, you know, I think that's James Earl Jones, I said no, you know? But no, they're right. And of course, everybody knows this now, that you do the voice of CNN. Why did you decide to take that on when you were offered it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, in \"The Exorcist.\" And I thought that was a silly argument. I said to myself that all that Mercedes is, is special effects. And I wanted to keep that clear in my case, so I didn't even take cred"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 37, "text": "So your attitude was why not take advantage of it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, you asked me, what has the \"Star Wars\" involvement meant to me? What it did, it made my voice - what do you call it? - viable in the commercial world. But I don't know why. Really, I avoided it th"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 38, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My attitude?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 39, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, Oh, exactly. Yeah. I mean, why kick something that's going to sit on your lap..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 40, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Out of the house? I mean, I think the first commercials I did - I did one for Chrysler and one for Goodyear and one for Fisher products - audio products. And they asked me to just give us the sound"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 41, "text": "No problem", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Goodyear Vector tires, you know? Let God sell Goodyear Vector tires."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 42, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Goodyear Vector tires, you know? Let God sell Goodyear Vector tires."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 43, "text": "So do you have a voice of yours that you think of, the voice of God?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They had no - they were not embarrassed about saying that, you know?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 44, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no. It - just to sound as - let it go as bass as it can go and still be clear."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 45, "text": "Of course, the Yellow Pages.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And to sound like I mean it. And there's not a product that I've ever promoted that I don't use, including Wells Lamont gloves - working man's gloves."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 46, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And Reuben's dinners, out in Reuben's chain of restaurants."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 47, "text": "When you were getting started as an actor in - was it the '50s or the '60s that we're talking about here?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Orson Welles and Vincent Price and I were once asked to simply, on a recording, read the menu with as much slobbering, lustful sounds as we can conjure. And we got paid for it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 48, "text": "The '50s, yeah - was it hard for you, as an African American actor, to find roles?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was the '50s."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 49, "text": "Well...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I laugh because I never wanted to contribute to the truth or the mythology about racism in this country in terms of the arts. There is some truth. My father warned me of that. I think each generation "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 50, "text": "I think you're being very, very modest here, but...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In - you know, nontraditional ways, because it's called box office."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 51, "text": "But really, I mean, when you started acting, you weren't...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I'm being..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 52, "text": "No. I understand.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm careful not to discourage young Black people..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 53, "text": "But Hollywood did not have the faith in African Americans at the box office that they're starting to develop now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...From expressing themselves in artistic ways because it's hard. It is hard."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 54, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hollywood doesn't have - Hollywood didn't have faith in women, Hispanic Americans, Asian Americans..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 55, "text": "One quick, very quick, last question. Have you ever been in a kind of difficult situation, either on the verge of being mugged or given a traffic ticket that you didn't want to pay or something, where you used your big, authoritative voice to intimidate the other person?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Native Americans. It has no faith at all. It's not about faith. It's about habits, fads, spin-offs, sequels, you know? Hollywood had some very bad habits. And a lot of them are racist. But I don't "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 56, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Last time I was mugged, it was multiple muggings 'cause my first visit at St. Louis, Mo., at the age of 14, I was mugged several times one afternoon before I figured it out, what was going on. And in "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 57, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You got surrounded by a bunch of kids that said, give me your money. I said, OK. Being a farm kid - what? - you fight over movie change? The idea of fighting didn't occur to me. So therefore, I was qu"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering  James Earl Jones, legend of the stage and screen", "question_index": 58, "text": "That's very funny. James Earl Jones, I thank you so much for talking with us. It's really been a pleasure. Thank you immensely.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Panicked a few street - a few people on a cross-country drive from New York to Los Angeles, and I have done - I've not done it since."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering jazz guitarist Russell Malone", "question_index": 0, "text": "Russell Malone from his recent CD, \"Look Who's Here.\" You strike me as somebody with a big voice when you're speaking who's singing in a much quieter voice. So what reaction have you been getting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Be careful. It's my heart. It's not my watch you're holding. It's my heart. It's not the note I sent you that you quickly burn. It's not the book I lent you that you never return. Be careful"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering jazz guitarist Russell Malone", "question_index": 1, "text": "A song you've recorded twice is \"Swing Low, Sweet Chariot,\" both solo guitar versions. Is that one of the songs that you used to do in church?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know what? A lot of people really like that song. They like my rendition of it. And I'm not a singer. I can carry a tune. I just sing the melody. And, you know, when you got a good song like that,"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering jazz guitarist Russell Malone", "question_index": 2, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. In fact, I used to play it at funerals. I played it at my grandfather's funeral."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering jazz guitarist Russell Malone", "question_index": 3, "text": "So it's a song that really means a lot to you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Swing Low, Sweet Chariot.\""}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering jazz guitarist Russell Malone", "question_index": 4, "text": "This is from your previous CD, which is called \"Sweet Georgia Peach.\" This is Russell Malone.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a song that - well, all of those songs mean a lot to me. But that one in particular - it really - my heart aches when I hear it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering jazz guitarist Russell Malone", "question_index": 5, "text": "Russell Malone from his CD \"Sweet Georgia Peach,\" \"Swing Low, Sweet Chariot.\" It's a beautiful version of that. Now, you primarily taught yourself to play guitar. So clearly, you must have a very good ear, but what about things like fingerings? I mean...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a song that - well, all of those songs mean a lot to me. But that one in particular - it really - my heart aches when I hear it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering jazz guitarist Russell Malone", "question_index": 6, "text": "Did you learn that yourself? Did you just, like, make that up yourself, or did you have people to suggest fingerings before...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What about it?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering jazz guitarist Russell Malone", "question_index": 7, "text": "Were there any things that you figured out on your own and then you met a more experienced guitarist and realized that there was a better way of going about it, better way of, like, fingering the chord or whatever and you had to unlearn what you'd taught yourself and learn something new, which can be very difficult?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just figured it out, but, you know, as I - you know, when you get older and you become more exposed to other players, you find out what they're doing, and you try to pick up what you can from them. "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering jazz guitarist Russell Malone", "question_index": 8, "text": "You have a great story about the first time you sat in with the organist Jimmy Smith...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR, and we're listening to Terry's 2000 interview with guitarist Russell Malone. He died last month at the age of 60."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering jazz guitarist Russell Malone", "question_index": 9, "text": "...When you were still pretty young. Would you tell that story for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering jazz guitarist Russell Malone", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he was playing at a place called Paschal's La Carrousel in Atlanta. This was back in 1986. And I had been listening to Jimmy since I was knee-high to a grasshopper, so I knew his music. And I go"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering jazz guitarist Russell Malone", "question_index": 11, "text": "Yeah, yeah, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know what I mean?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering jazz guitarist Russell Malone", "question_index": 12, "text": "I do, and it's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", feeling good. So Jimmy's sitting back, and he's paying attention to all of this. So he ended the tune. Then he went into a ballad which I didn't know, a tune called \"Laura\" by David Raksin. You know"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering jazz guitarist Russell Malone", "question_index": 13, "text": "...It's a haunting melody, but it's also - it doesn't have predictable - it doesn't have a predictable melody line or chords.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering jazz guitarist Russell Malone", "question_index": 14, "text": "It's the theme from the movie, by the way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "See; that's the thing. See; that's not one of those tunes that you can just hear your way through. You have to really know that song."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering jazz guitarist Russell Malone", "question_index": 15, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering jazz guitarist Russell Malone", "question_index": 16, "text": "For listeners who don't know it. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering jazz guitarist Russell Malone", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So you have to really know that song. So he plays the melody, and I'm here - I'm there, trying to hear what he's doing, and then after he finishes the melody, he motions for me to take the first solo."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering jazz guitarist Russell Malone", "question_index": 18, "text": "Mm-hmm (ph).", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So anyway, he played one more tune, ended the set, went back over to the bar, and he's, you know, having a drink with some friends. So I was so embarrassed, I was going to leave, but I figured I'd b"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering jazz guitarist Russell Malone", "question_index": 19, "text": "One of the things I really like about this story is that after he kind of makes a point of putting you in your place on the bandstand, then you become buddies - you know, like, within an hour of that", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When they have an audience, they put on this act. But when it was just the two of us one-on-one, he - I got so much information from this man. And, you know, it's funny - whenever he would talk about "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering jazz guitarist Russell Malone", "question_index": 20, "text": ", or an hour or two, you know, and you stay up all night together. He's teaching you all these things. It's like he showed you up, but he really, apparently, did mean well. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When they have an audience, they put on this act. But when it was just the two of us one-on-one, he - I got so much information from this man. And, you know, it's funny - whenever he would talk about "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering jazz guitarist Russell Malone", "question_index": 21, "text": "What are some of the musicians or some of the recordings you've listened to over the years that are quite a distance away from what you actually play, but you love what they do and it's influenced you in some way or another? You know, things that we'd be...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's what you call - that's a perfect example of tough love. You know, tough love. It's just like, you know, here I was. I was this cocky kid. And I made the mistake of - and this was a very f"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering jazz guitarist Russell Malone", "question_index": 22, "text": "Yeah, or even within jazz.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You mean aside from jazz?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering jazz guitarist Russell Malone", "question_index": 23, "text": "Things that we might be surprised that you really like and feel very strongly about.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering jazz guitarist Russell Malone", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is singer-songwriter James Taylor.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I like a lot of different things, Terry. There's one record that I've been listening to called \"New Moon Shine,\" by James Taylor. It came out about nine years ago, which is - it's a great record"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering jazz guitarist Russell Malone", "question_index": 25, "text": "Right, right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "James Taylor, yeah, \"Fire And Rain\" James Taylor."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering jazz guitarist Russell Malone", "question_index": 26, "text": "What do you hear in him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering jazz guitarist Russell Malone", "question_index": 27, "text": "You have a song that you do on your previous CD, the \"Sweet Georgia Peach\" CD, called \"Someone's Rocking My Dreamboat.\" I've never heard of that song before. Where did you find it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, James Taylor - he's got honesty, man. I mean, he's got the passion, and he writes great songs. The man writes good songs. Jim Croce I like. I love Jim Croce. I like Patsy Cline. I like Sam Cooke"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering jazz guitarist Russell Malone", "question_index": 28, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're not going to believe it when I tell you this. Are you ready for this?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering jazz guitarist Russell Malone", "question_index": 29, "text": "I'm sitting down.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Are you sure you're ready for this, Terry."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering jazz guitarist Russell Malone", "question_index": 30, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK - Bugs Bunny."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering jazz guitarist Russell Malone", "question_index": 31, "text": ". What, did he sing it in a cartoon? - because Bugs is the great vaudevillian of the Warner Bros. cartoons.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I kid you not."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering jazz guitarist Russell Malone", "question_index": 32, "text": "Sure do.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Remember The Ink Spots?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering jazz guitarist Russell Malone", "question_index": 33, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) If I didn't care."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering jazz guitarist Russell Malone", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) And would I be sure that this is love beyond compare? Would all this be true if I didn't care for you? (Scatting). Anyway, so much for that."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering jazz guitarist Russell Malone", "question_index": 35, "text": "Oh, it's a great song. It's great. One extreme to another - Bugs Bunny to The Ink Spots.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, but The Ink Spots - I have a recording of The Ink Spots doing that tune, and I had to record it. I should play that again. I haven't played it in a while."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering jazz guitarist Russell Malone", "question_index": 36, "text": "Yeah. Well, I think it's only fitting that we end with \"Someone's Rocking My Dreamboat.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, Bugs Bunny. That's where I first heard that tune."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-13", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Remembering jazz guitarist Russell Malone", "question_index": 37, "text": "Russell Malone, it's been great to talk with you. Thank you very much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-17", "guest": "Russ Buettner", "title": "'Lucky Loser' dispels the myth of Trump as a self-made billionaire", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Donald Trump's claims to being one of the wealthiest, most successful and brilliant businessmen was created with smoke and mirrors using his father's wealth, media-created myths, lots of enormous loans, instances of tax fraud, along with false claims and unkept promises. The details are laid out in a new book by my guests Susanne Craig and Russ Buettner, two New York Times reporters who have been investigating Trump's business practices and finances ever since he campaigned for the presidency in 2016. One of their early clues came from several pages of Trump's tax documents that were leaked to Susanne Craig in a manila envelope she found in her New York Times mailbox. Craig and Buettner won a Pulitzer Prize for their reporting. Now they've written a new book called \"Lucky Loser: How Donald Trump Squandered His Father's Fortune And Created The Illusion Of Success.\" Susanne Craig and Russ Buettner, welcome to FRESH AIR. I want to start by saying that we're recording this on Monday. And whatever we discuss about Donald Trump's finances doesn't change the fact that the second attempted assassination of Donald Trump and all the threats of violence surrounding this election is deeply upsetting, deeply disturbing. I'm wondering if this is an awkward moment for you to be talking about the book.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-17", "guest": "Russ Buettner", "title": "'Lucky Loser' dispels the myth of Trump as a self-made billionaire", "question_index": 1, "text": "I also want to mention that you just got a cease and desist letter from one of Trump's lawyers regarding an excerpt of the book, or an adaptation of a chapter of the book, about \"The Apprentice\" that was published in The New York Times. So what does that mean and how are you handling that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, anytime there's an attempt on someone's life, it does have a way of making everything else seem inconsequential. But we are still propelling ourselves towards a presidential election, when the v"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-17", "guest": "Russ Buettner", "title": "'Lucky Loser' dispels the myth of Trump as a self-made billionaire", "question_index": 2, "text": "What is the state of Trump's finances now? He's lost a lot of licensing deals. There's businesses that he lost since he announced for president in 2016, and also since \"The Apprentice\" was canceled after he announced. So where does he stand now financially?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's always, I think, you know, worth noting when you get a legal letter. And I think for now, you know, we're going to proceed and talk about the book. We stand by the book. I understand fr"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-17", "guest": "Russ Buettner", "title": "'Lucky Loser' dispels the myth of Trump as a self-made billionaire", "question_index": 3, "text": "And when he sells businesses, he has to use a lot of that money to pay off loans, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That is always a very difficult thing to ascertain. We have a very thorough record of his tax returns and some financial records through 2018. More of that came out afterwards. As near as we can tell,"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-17", "guest": "Russ Buettner", "title": "'Lucky Loser' dispels the myth of Trump as a self-made billionaire", "question_index": 4, "text": "And that's the post office in Washington, D.C., that he converted into a hotel?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. He has to use a lot of it to pay off loans. He also encounters depreciation recapture tax, which is a weird tax that's basically an accounting thing but causes a real expense, and a capi"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-17", "guest": "Russ Buettner", "title": "'Lucky Loser' dispels the myth of Trump as a self-made billionaire", "question_index": 5, "text": "So a lot of the book is about, you know, deals on hotels and, you know, buildings like Trump Tower and casino. Some of the book is about how the media created the image of Trump as this wildly successful businessman. And I want to talk about that a little bit because that's part of what got him elected as president in 2016, was this image that you kind of undo in your book. So let's start with 1982, when he was listed on Forbes' first list of the 400 wealthiest Americans. Based on what? What were his finances like and what did he claim to be?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you've also seen Donald Trump move into, I think, these licensing deals. Those are very familiar to him because he did a lot of them during \"The Apprentice.\" But now they look a little bit like "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-17", "guest": "Russ Buettner", "title": "'Lucky Loser' dispels the myth of Trump as a self-made billionaire", "question_index": 6, "text": "Right, so part of what he was claiming as his was really his father's wealth.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, that's one of the great mysteries. That's one of the things that requires constant untangling about Donald Trump, is this is a very small, privately owned family operation. And that was based "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-17", "guest": "Russ Buettner", "title": "'Lucky Loser' dispels the myth of Trump as a self-made billionaire", "question_index": 7, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guests are Susanne Craig and Russ Buettner, Pulitzer Prize-winning reporters for The New York Times. Their new book is called \"Lucky Loser: How Donald Trump Squandered His Father's Fortune And Created The Illusion Of Success.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think, Terry, what I found to be one of the most surprising parts of the book was just how successfully and how long it went on that Donald Trump lied about his wealth and that he was able to do tha"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-17", "guest": "Russ Buettner", "title": "'Lucky Loser' dispels the myth of Trump as a self-made billionaire", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Russ Buettner and Susanne Craig, authors of the new book \"Lucky Loser: How Donald Trump Squandered His Father's Fortune And Created The Illusion Of Success.\" They've been investigating Trump's finances ever since he campaigned for president in 2016. You have a fascinating chapter in the book that was excerpted in The New York Times about \"The Apprentice\" and how that show enhanced his image of, you know, most successful, brilliant businessmen but also gave him so many licensing deals that made him more money than a lot of his properties did. So let's talk about \"The Apprentice\" and why it's so important. First of all, how was he chosen as the host over Richard Branson and Jack Welch, who was the head of General Motors, and Warren Buffett?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think, Terry, what I found to be one of the most surprising parts of the book was just how successfully and how long it went on that Donald Trump lied about his wealth and that he was able to do tha"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-17", "guest": "Russ Buettner", "title": "'Lucky Loser' dispels the myth of Trump as a self-made billionaire", "question_index": 9, "text": "...And created \"Survivor.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Those are some serious names that you mentioned in there - you know, legitimate businessmen and very wealthy. And Mark Burnett, who is the producer of \"The Apprentice,\" looked at..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-17", "guest": "Russ Buettner", "title": "'Lucky Loser' dispels the myth of Trump as a self-made billionaire", "question_index": 10, "text": "Before \"The Apprentice\" started shooting, producers went to the floor of Trump Tower, where Trump's offices were. Describe what they saw on that floor.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And created \"Survivor.\" And, you know, that's an important thing to mention actually because he was just a leader in the genre of reality TV. And when \"The Apprentice\" was pitched, he was coming off \""}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-17", "guest": "Russ Buettner", "title": "'Lucky Loser' dispels the myth of Trump as a self-made billionaire", "question_index": 11, "text": "When you were talking to one of the producers of \"The Apprentice\" about this, he said, our job was to make Trump look legitimate, to make him look like there was something behind it, even though we pretty much all knew that there wasn't, but that was our job. What are some of the first things they did to create his image as a successful businessman in addition to having to create a fake boardroom?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the first thing they described to us was the smell. They stepped off the elevator, and everything had this musty carpet odor. It just made an immediate impression that this was not the center of"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-17", "guest": "Russ Buettner", "title": "'Lucky Loser' dispels the myth of Trump as a self-made billionaire", "question_index": 12, "text": "You report that during \"The Apprentice,\" the producers thought that sometimes Trump fired the wrong person. Can you tell that story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The power of repetition of that opening scene in \"The Apprentice\" can never be underestimated. And in some ways, I think it's the greatest political commercial of all time. And I think that that image"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-17", "guest": "Russ Buettner", "title": "'Lucky Loser' dispels the myth of Trump as a self-made billionaire", "question_index": 13, "text": "Part of the deal is that Trump was supposed to evenly split income from product integration. That's product placement.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One of the producers we talked to about this particular issue said, when we saw that happen, we knew we had a show."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-17", "guest": "Russ Buettner", "title": "'Lucky Loser' dispels the myth of Trump as a self-made billionaire", "question_index": 14, "text": "He had up sponsors for side deals of his own. Can you tell the Levi's story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is product placement. If you remember back - and a lot of people have seen shows like \"Survivor,\" maybe \"The Apprentice\" - and you imagine the contestants on the show competing for a prize, it may "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-17", "guest": "Russ Buettner", "title": "'Lucky Loser' dispels the myth of Trump as a self-made billionaire", "question_index": 15, "text": "He didn't want to do anything that would upset the program.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". That's a wonderful story. So this was, I think, during the second season of \"The Apprentice,\" and Levi's had sponsored an episode. And Donald Trump was on set, and he had got Melania to put on a pai"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-17", "guest": "Russ Buettner", "title": "'Lucky Loser' dispels the myth of Trump as a self-made billionaire", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, there's a lot more I want to talk with you about, but first, we have to take another short break. If you're just joining us, my guests are Susanne Craig and Russ Buettner, Pulitzer Prize-winning reporters at The New York Times. Their new book is called \"Lucky Loser: How Donald Trump Squandered His Father's Fortune And Created The Illusion Of Success.\" We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. And that's what we heard over and over as Donald Trump - we heard about a number of side deals that he cut where he would cut Mark Burnett out of money, and there were ones much larger than that t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-17", "guest": "Russ Buettner", "title": "'Lucky Loser' dispels the myth of Trump as a self-made billionaire", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with New York Times reporters Russ Buettner and Susanne Craig. They've been investigating Donald Trump's finances ever since he became the Republican presidential candidate in 2016. They won a Pulitzer Prize for their reporting, and now they've written a new book called \"Lucky Loser: How Donald Trump Squandered His Father's Fortune And Created The Illusion Of Success.\" So all of the licensing deals that Trump benefited from during the run of \"The Apprentice,\" he invested a lot of that in businesses, in - sometimes in new businesses, and those businesses lost money", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. And that's what we heard over and over as Donald Trump - we heard about a number of side deals that he cut where he would cut Mark Burnett out of money, and there were ones much larger than that t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-17", "guest": "Russ Buettner", "title": "'Lucky Loser' dispels the myth of Trump as a self-made billionaire", "question_index": 18, "text": ". So he lost of the - a lot of the money that he made. What were some of those businesses?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. And that's what we heard over and over as Donald Trump - we heard about a number of side deals that he cut where he would cut Mark Burnett out of money, and there were ones much larger than that t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-17", "guest": "Russ Buettner", "title": "'Lucky Loser' dispels the myth of Trump as a self-made billionaire", "question_index": 19, "text": "When Trump announced his candidacy in 2016 after coming down the escalator at Trump Tower, and he said Mexico was, quote, \"sending people that have lots of problems. They're bringing drugs. They're bringing crime. They're rapists. And some, I assume, are good people.\" You read that the NBC executives were appalled, and licensing agreements started to dry up. Can you give us some examples of the reaction to that announcement that he was running for the presidency?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one of the biggest ones was a tower in Chicago. It was a combination of residential and hotel units. It had a commercial space on the ground floor - took him years to build that. And one of the "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-17", "guest": "Russ Buettner", "title": "'Lucky Loser' dispels the myth of Trump as a self-made billionaire", "question_index": 20, "text": "And this perfume had been sold for $60 a bottle.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, the reaction was fast and furious, both from NBC, the network, and also from a number of the companies that he had licensing agreements with. I remember talking to Paul Telegdy, one of the senio"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-17", "guest": "Russ Buettner", "title": "'Lucky Loser' dispels the myth of Trump as a self-made billionaire", "question_index": 21, "text": "Oh, really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It had been, and within a day or two, it was taken off the shelves. I actually spoke to somebody whose job it was to take it off the shelves, and..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-17", "guest": "Russ Buettner", "title": "'Lucky Loser' dispels the myth of Trump as a self-made billionaire", "question_index": 22, "text": "So Trump had his own brands that were licensed, like Trump Steaks, Trump water, the Trump perfume. Did he get out of licensing his own products after so many licensing deals fell through?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...They moved quickly to get it out of the store. They just did not want to be associated with him after that. He lost so much money in licensing deals because of the comments that he made that day."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-17", "guest": "Russ Buettner", "title": "'Lucky Loser' dispels the myth of Trump as a self-made billionaire", "question_index": 23, "text": "It's time for another break. If you're just joining us, my guests are Susanne Craig and Russ Buettner, Pulitzer Prize-winning reporters for The New York Times. Their new book is called \"Lucky Loser: How Donald Trump Squandered His Father's Fortune And Created The Illusion Of Success.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It took him a long time. He was quite stubborn in trying to market his name, and he's still trying today. But there is an interesting arc to it, where early in \"The Apprentice,\" he'd been trying for s"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-17", "guest": "Russ Buettner", "title": "'Lucky Loser' dispels the myth of Trump as a self-made billionaire", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Russ Buettner and Susanne Craig, authors of the new book \"Lucky Loser: How Donald Trump Squandered His Father's Fortune And Created The Illusion Of Success.\" They've been investigating Trump's finances ever since he campaigned for president in 2016. Let's talk about Trump Tower. You know, one of the things I found really interesting about the Trump Tower section of your book is that there was a fire on the 28th floor during construction, and they had to rush to complete the building and make it schedule. When residents started to move in, a lot of them decided to redecorate. Why were they so...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It took him a long time. He was quite stubborn in trying to market his name, and he's still trying today. But there is an interesting arc to it, where early in \"The Apprentice,\" he'd been trying for s"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-17", "guest": "Russ Buettner", "title": "'Lucky Loser' dispels the myth of Trump as a self-made billionaire", "question_index": 25, "text": "...Concerned and disappointed by the floors and the appliances in Trump Tower?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-17", "guest": "Russ Buettner", "title": "'Lucky Loser' dispels the myth of Trump as a self-made billionaire", "question_index": 26, "text": "There's fake marble.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He had put in lower-quality products in order to save money during the process. So he was selling these as luxury apartment buildings. And they were luxury units. But when people started moving in, th"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-17", "guest": "Russ Buettner", "title": "'Lucky Loser' dispels the myth of Trump as a self-made billionaire", "question_index": 27, "text": "Parquet wood tile floors.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-17", "guest": "Russ Buettner", "title": "'Lucky Loser' dispels the myth of Trump as a self-made billionaire", "question_index": 28, "text": "Not luxurious.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-17", "guest": "Russ Buettner", "title": "'Lucky Loser' dispels the myth of Trump as a self-made billionaire", "question_index": 29, "text": "So we're talking about the 1980s here because Trump Tower was finished, I think, in 1982.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, and it's interesting because the people moving in found that. And then Donald Trump, of course, has a famous triplex in the building that he still owns today. And he had hired a very famous, a ver"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-17", "guest": "Russ Buettner", "title": "'Lucky Loser' dispels the myth of Trump as a self-made billionaire", "question_index": 30, "text": "OK, but it's in that vicinity.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was - I want to say '84."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-17", "guest": "Russ Buettner", "title": "'Lucky Loser' dispels the myth of Trump as a self-made billionaire", "question_index": 31, "text": "And so it's right after that that he starts this, like, acquisition and building spree. And those things end up losing money. Does Television City fit into that period?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-17", "guest": "Russ Buettner", "title": "'Lucky Loser' dispels the myth of Trump as a self-made billionaire", "question_index": 32, "text": "Would you describe what it is - because I'd never even heard of Television City, and why should I? It never existed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. To me..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-17", "guest": "Russ Buettner", "title": "'Lucky Loser' dispels the myth of Trump as a self-made billionaire", "question_index": 33, "text": "He never got to actually, you know, create it. But what was it supposed to be? And what did he say about how, you know, innovative and important this was going to be?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-17", "guest": "Russ Buettner", "title": "'Lucky Loser' dispels the myth of Trump as a self-made billionaire", "question_index": 34, "text": "So you said Television City ran into problems. What kind of problems did Trump run into?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was such a major turning point in his life. Had been trying for 10 years to acquire the rights, or hold onto the rights, to develop this large swath of undeveloped land on the west side of Manhat"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-17", "guest": "Russ Buettner", "title": "'Lucky Loser' dispels the myth of Trump as a self-made billionaire", "question_index": 35, "text": "Did anything get built from that project?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first, they were almost all of his own creation. First was just the sheer size of it. Everybody warned him that this project was too big. The prior person who controlled the site had not been ab"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-17", "guest": "Russ Buettner", "title": "'Lucky Loser' dispels the myth of Trump as a self-made billionaire", "question_index": 36, "text": "And what was it called?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Eventually it did, but not by him. After he downsized the project several times, he did win in the early '90s approval for the zoning. By then, his finances were so bad he couldn't get a loan to do an"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-17", "guest": "Russ Buettner", "title": "'Lucky Loser' dispels the myth of Trump as a self-made billionaire", "question_index": 37, "text": "Let me reintroduce you again. My guests are Susanne Craig and Russ Buettner. They're Pulitzer Prize-winning reporters at the New York Times. Their new book is called \"Lucky Loser: How Donald Trump Squandered His Father's Fortune And Created The Illusion Of Success.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was called Trump Place for a while. There was a street named that. Some of the buildings bore his name, but many of the buildings since, which are co-ops, cooperative apartment buildings that are o"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-17", "guest": "Russ Buettner", "title": "'Lucky Loser' dispels the myth of Trump as a self-made billionaire", "question_index": 38, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Russ Buettner and Susanne Craig, authors of the new book \"Lucky Loser: How Donald Trump Squandered His Father's Fortune And Created The Illusion Of Success.\" They've been investigating Trump's finances ever since he campaigned for President in 2016. Trump used so much of his father's money and claimed some of his father's fortune as being his own. And he had a lot of, like, failures, lost a lot of money. How much of the failure, how much of the bragging, saying that his father's money was actually Donald Trump's money - how much of that did Fred Trump, Donald Trump's father, live to see? And I know Fred Trump died in his 90s, and he had dementia by the time he died. So how much of Trump's failures and distortions did Fred Trump get to see before his own cognitive abilities were clouded by dementia?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was called Trump Place for a while. There was a street named that. Some of the buildings bore his name, but many of the buildings since, which are co-ops, cooperative apartment buildings that are o"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-17", "guest": "Russ Buettner", "title": "'Lucky Loser' dispels the myth of Trump as a self-made billionaire", "question_index": 39, "text": "In the acknowledgments of your book, you mention a lot of names. I assume some of those names are sources. Were you concerned about the possibility of some of the people mentioned in the acknowledgments being attacked under the assumption that some of those people might have been sources and Trump would object to them being sources? And when Trump is critical of someone, they're likely to be attacked on social media or perhaps doxxed or perhaps have people show up at their home to intimidate them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Fred Trump died in 1999. And when you actually think about what Fred Trump did get to see, he got to see some of I think what people would consider Donald Trump's, first of all, biggest successes. He "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-17", "guest": "Russ Buettner", "title": "'Lucky Loser' dispels the myth of Trump as a self-made billionaire", "question_index": 40, "text": "You write that the Trump era has presented unique challenges for journalists. What challenges has it presented for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's interesting. In the acknowledgments, we do name both a number of sources that we talked to and experts who helped us out. In the case of the sources, we made sure with them that they we"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-17", "guest": "Russ Buettner", "title": "'Lucky Loser' dispels the myth of Trump as a self-made billionaire", "question_index": 41, "text": "There was a long period when Trump would call people or do publicity for himself under the name John Barron. It was an alias that he used so that people wouldn't think he was doing his own publicity or beating his own drum, although he was. And I don't know if you can speak to this at all, but, you know, he named his son Barron. And Barron was his alias or pseudonym or, you know, whatever name you wanted to call it. It was John Barron. Do you have any idea why he named his son or he and his wife named his son after his own pseudonym?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And sometimes the truth just takes a long time to get to. Russ and I have spent 10 years on this. We spent full time two or three years writing the book. And in the meantime, you know, Donald Trump sa"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-17", "guest": "Russ Buettner", "title": "'Lucky Loser' dispels the myth of Trump as a self-made billionaire", "question_index": 42, "text": "Russ Buettner, Susanne Craig, thank you so much for your reporting, and thank you so much for being a guest on our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, one of the interesting parts of our reporting in this is we were always paying attention to his use of that name, and we discovered that he started using it as soon as he left college and st"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-17", "guest": "Russ Buettner", "title": "'Lucky Loser' dispels the myth of Trump as a self-made billionaire", "question_index": 43, "text": "Susanne Craig and Russ Buettner are the authors of the new book \"Lucky Loser.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be TV journalist Connie Chung. In a new memoir, she details her climb to the top of her male-dominated field, her love of hard news and her nearly 40-year marriage to tabloid talk show host Maury Povich. She also talks about the state of TV news today. I hope you'll join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at @NPRFreshAir. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi, Joel Wolfram. And we're very happy to welcome Anna Bauman to our production team. Hey, Anna. Welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-17", "guest": "Russ Buettner", "title": "'Lucky Loser' dispels the myth of Trump as a self-made billionaire", "question_index": 44, "text": "Our digital media producers are Molly Seavy-Nesper and Sabrina Siewert. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-20", "guest": "Dan Morgenstern", "title": "Remembering Dan Morgenstern, a revered jazz historian, archivist and critic", "question_index": 0, "text": "Would you choose a record that you loved when you were young, during the war, when you were fleeing from the Nazis - a record that still means a lot to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What got me - really got me involved was seeing Fats Waller in Copenhagen in September of 1938. And, you know, that was a great experience. I had never seen anybody like that before. Well, there wasn'"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-20", "guest": "Dan Morgenstern", "title": "Remembering Dan Morgenstern, a revered jazz historian, archivist and critic", "question_index": 1, "text": "Why don't we hear it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I guess, you know, this is, of course, a kids' record, but it's also - in retrospect, it's a good jazz record. That was Chick Webb's \"Dipsy Doodle,\" which featured a vocal by the then still very"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-20", "guest": "Dan Morgenstern", "title": "Remembering Dan Morgenstern, a revered jazz historian, archivist and critic", "question_index": 2, "text": "That's Chick Webb and Ella Fitzgerald, \"The Dipsy Doodle,\" a record that meant a lot to Dan Morgenstern when he was growing up. In 1947, after the war, you and your mother moved to New York, where your father had already moved. What are some of your earliest memories of discovering jazz as a New Yorker and actually being able to, say, like, go to concerts and go to record stores?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) The Dipsy Doodle is easy to find. It's almost always in the back of your mind. You never know it until it's too late. And then you're in such a terrible state. Like, the moon jumped over the"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-20", "guest": "Dan Morgenstern", "title": "Remembering Dan Morgenstern, a revered jazz historian, archivist and critic", "question_index": 3, "text": "You've described yourself as having been more of a jazz journalist and jazz proselytizer than jazz critic. Would you choose a record that you feel you helped affect the destiny of, or helped change the attitude toward - a record that you loved that you thought wasn't really - wasn't getting adequate attention or wasn't really understood?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was an adviser to that, but on screen, I only appeared for about 10 seconds. But what I said is something that I've often said, which is that when I came to New York, you know, what I wanted was not"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-20", "guest": "Dan Morgenstern", "title": "Remembering Dan Morgenstern, a revered jazz historian, archivist and critic", "question_index": 4, "text": "Why don't we hear that Armstrong recording of \"Swing That Music\"? And this is from 1936?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one of the things that I found irksome was the attitude that then existed towards the work of Louis Armstrong. People had a tendency to look at it in terms of the Hot Five era - you know, \"Heebi"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-20", "guest": "Dan Morgenstern", "title": "Remembering Dan Morgenstern, a revered jazz historian, archivist and critic", "question_index": 5, "text": "My guest is Dan Morgenstern. Since 1976, you've directed the Institute of Jazz Studies at Rutgers University. And in that sense, you've become really important as a collector of jazz history. I mean, the institute is - I don't know - perhaps the most important collection of jazz history in the country, one of the most important in the world. What are one or two of the objects in the collection of the Institute of Jazz Studies that mean the most to you and that have an almost, like, magical aura surrounding them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) And my heart gives a chill. I feel such a thrill. My feet won't keep still when they swing that music. Rhythm like that puts me in a trance. Oh, you can't blame me for wanting to dance. From"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-20", "guest": "Dan Morgenstern", "title": "Remembering Dan Morgenstern, a revered jazz historian, archivist and critic", "question_index": 6, "text": "Well, Dan Morgenstern, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that would be the instruments. We have quite a collection of instruments that belong to famous and maybe even not-so-famous musicians, and some of those people are people that I felt ver"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. As we near the presidential election, a new book answers a lot of questions about the Mueller investigation. Special counsel Robert Mueller was appointed by acting Attorney General Rod Rosenstein to investigate any links or coordination between the Russian government and people associated with the 2016 Trump campaign, as well as other related matters, including possible obstruction of justice, witness tampering, or destruction of evidence. The book takes us behind the scenes of the investigation. It answers questions such as why the special counsel's office didn't subpoena President Trump, why no criminal charges against Trump were recommended, and the reaction inside the special counsel's office when then-Attorney General William Barr released his own inaccurate summary of the investigation. That summary misled Americans about what the report's conclusions really were and enabled Trump and the White House to incorrectly claim the report found no obstruction and no collusion. The new book, \"Interference: The Inside Story Of Trump, Russia, And The Mueller Investigation,\" is written by three lead members of Mueller's team, including my guest, Aaron Zebley. He was Mueller's deputy during the investigation and was Mueller's chief of staff when Mueller was the FBI director. Zebley oversaw the editing of the Mueller report. Aaron Zebley, welcome to FRESH AIR. Can you describe your role in the investigation as Mueller's deputy?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 1, "text": "There were a lot of criticisms for not having subpoenaed Trump. You say the story of the back and forth with the Justice Department over the subpoena has never been told until this book. Why did the Mueller team insist that it was essential to question President Trump?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would say I was more or less the chief operating officer. I oversaw all the investigations and all the prosecutions. We had team leaders for each of our investigative teams, but I was overseeing all"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 2, "text": "One of the things you wanted was Trump's explanation for firing James Comey, who was then the director of the FBI. What were some of the specific things you wanted to ask about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One of the central questions of our obstruction of justice investigation was the president's intent. Obstruction of justice has an intent element that is whether or not the person behaved with corrupt"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 3, "text": "The first draft of a letter that Trump never sent because his aides convinced him not to, said - and this was a letter to Comey - while I greatly appreciate you informing me that I am not under investigation concerning what I have stated as a fabricated story on a Trump-Russia relationship pertaining to the 2016 presidential election, please be informed that I and I believe the American public have lost faith in you as the director of the FBI. Why was this a troublesome draft of a letter? What did you want to ask Trump about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, with respect to his termination of Jim Comey, in that week around Comey's termination, the president said a number of things about its possible connection with Russia. In the days after firing C"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 4, "text": "Another thing you cite is that Trump told his White House counsel, Don McGahn, that he should call Rod Rosenstein, who was then the acting attorney general, and tell him that Mueller had conflicts and Mueller had to go. Call me when you do it. After directing McGahn to fire Mueller, Trump told McGahn to say that Trump never ordered him to do it. What did you want to ask him, ask Trump, that would help you decide if that was an act of obstruction?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, his letter does a couple of things, starting with the end. He's pointing back to statements by Comey from almost a year earlier in July 2016, and then in October 2016, about decisions he made in"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 5, "text": "What kind of answers were you expecting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, obstruction of justice requires three things - an obstructive act, a nexus to an official proceeding and corrupt intent, and in the - what you just described with McGahn, the president went to M"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 6, "text": "I'll mention just one more thing. The day after Trump fired Comey, Trump met with senior Russian officials in the Oval Office and said, I face great pressure because of Russia. That's taken off. I'm not under investigation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when you get in a room and you interview someone, you're never quite sure what might come out. We hoped we would get an explanation. I don't - I hoped we would hear his account of those events."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 7, "text": "So what were Trump's legal teams arguments against interviewing Trump?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's right. That was Lavrov, Russian foreign minister, and I think Sergey Kislyak, the Russian ambassador, there as well. And that was another instance where Trump seemed to be connecting his "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 8, "text": "And that statement is very similar to what the Supreme Court recently ruled, that a president is immune from prosecution if what they're doing is part of an official act of the president. So if somebody is doing something for corrupt reasons. Like, if he was firing Comey just to kind of cover up any evidence that Comey was finding or any investigation Comey was pursuing involving the president, is firing somebody to cover up something for your own good considered an official act of the presidency? This is something that's really perplexing about these decisions.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one was they felt as though we had all we needed in terms of understanding the president's conduct. We had received some number of documents from the White House and we'd been able to interview "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 9, "text": "Democracy really depends on honesty, doesn't it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is one of the central issues and one of the troubling things about the potential collateral consequences of the Supreme Court's recent decision about the president being immune from prosecution f"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 10, "text": "If you have a dishonest executive, then what happens to these rules?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 11, "text": "So the way it worked out was you finally agreed to submit written questions and accept written answers from Trump. So you submitted a list of - what? - like 76 questions. It took two months for you to get answers to those questions. What was your reaction to the responses that you did get?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it's exactly - this is sort of more of what I was just saying. This is one of the things that is, I think, most troubling about the potential consequence of this recent Supreme Court decision."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 12, "text": "And you don't get to ask a follow-up question.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were uninformative. There were a lot of I don't recalls, a lot of lawyered responses. I mean, I think every lawyer understands when you write answers to questions, you're really not going to reve"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 13, "text": "So did you get anything out of the written testimony?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, exactly. That's the value of an interview. You get to see the person, you get to follow up, you get to press them when there are opportunities."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 14, "text": "What do you think you might have gotten if you actually got to talk with him in person, in real time, as opposed to written responses, you know, written questions with responses given to you two months later? Could he still have said, oh, I don't remember or just given you vague answers, even when you ask follow-ups?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think there was anything that contributed to our understanding of what had happened with the Russians or what had happened in the president's conduct towards our investigation. No."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 15, "text": "I want to ask you another thing about this period in the Mueller investigation. Giuliani had recently joined the legal team, and at a meeting, he asked if Trump was being examined by Mueller as a witness in the investigation or a subject or a target. Just briefly explain the difference between a target and a subject.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Look, I suppose he would've started there, but we would be in a position to remind him of certain things. So just to take one example, there was an instance where the president - or he was a candidate"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 16, "text": "So this was supposed to be a very confidential meeting. And you in confidence - or, like, your team in confidence told Giuliani that Trump was a subject, not a target.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A subject is somebody who's within the scope of the investigation, somebody whose conduct is being looked at. The target of an investigation, or a target, is somebody who's essentially a defendant, so"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 17, "text": "Again, this meeting was supposed to be confidential, and Giuliani agreed to those terms. And then he talked about it to the press and even got the details wrong. So how do you deal with a lawyer who isn't being honest and isn't keeping his own agreement and also gets the facts wrong?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 18, "text": "In terms of obstruction of justice, that was one of the things you were investigating. And Trump's legal team questioned whether you could investigate obstruction of justice without there being an underlying crime that he was obstructing, you know, that he was obstructing the investigation about. And then you pointed out that obstruction is a crime, and it doesn't require an underlying crime that's being covered up. Did it surprise you that the Trump legal team was making that argument when an underlying crime isn't a requirement of obstruction?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in that situation, what Bob decided - and we say this in the book - was he would no longer meet with him. He just wouldn't do it. So that's one thing you can do. I think what prosecutors often d"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 19, "text": "Let's take a short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Aaron Zebley, one of the three members of Robert Mueller's team who wrote the new book \"Interference: The Inside Story Of Trump, Russia, And The Mueller Investigation.\" He was Mueller's deputy during the investigation. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes and no. Yes, because as you point out, obstruction is its own crime. And in fact, ironically, the most effective obstruction would prevent you from ever finding evidence of the underlying crime. S"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Aaron Zebley, one of the three lead members of Robert Mueller's team who wrote the new book \"Interference: The Inside Story Of Trump, Russia, And The Mueller Investigation.\" So the Mueller report says that the team declined to reach a judgment about whether there was evidence to charge Trump with the crime of obstruction. But you also were saying that you were not exonerating him either. You weren't saying there was and you weren't saying there wasn't obstruction. What is the legal bar for the criminal charge of obstruction? And why didn't the findings that you came up with reach that legal bar?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes and no. Yes, because as you point out, obstruction is its own crime. And in fact, ironically, the most effective obstruction would prevent you from ever finding evidence of the underlying crime. S"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 21, "text": "So now five years later, now having written this book, now having told stories that you wouldn't have told earlier, are you willing to say that you actually did find evidence of obstruction, or that you actually didn't find enough to meet the legal bar?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we ultimately decided not to make the calculation even. What we said was, the Department of Justice prohibits prosecutors from charging a sitting president. There's an office of legal counsel op"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 22, "text": "And I'm going to ask you the same questions about colluding or cooperating with Russia. Your report also doesn't reach a conclusion about whether Trump did or did not collude or cooperate with Russia. I suppose that was for the same reasons.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the Mueller report says it in the best possible way. We did an analysis of 10 incidents where the president was taking actions towards our investigation. And in four of them, we said there was"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 23, "text": "There was also the infamous Trump Tower meeting where a Russian proposed to Don Jr. that this Russian had damaging information about Hillary Clinton that the Trump campaign could use and offered to have a meeting to hear about it. And Don Jr. agreed to do it. And so Don Jr., Eric Trump, and Paul Manafort, who was the campaign manager at the time, met with a couple of Russians. As it turns out, the Russians had their own agenda, but the fact that the Trump sons and campaign manager were willing to have that meeting, in terms of information, what did that tell you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in that instance, we said we did not find sufficient evidence of a conspiracy to charge a conspiracy. Collusion is not really a criminal violation. So we applied that term to mean conspiracy. An"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 24, "text": "Oh, yes. Thank you for the correction. Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Eric Trump wasn't there. It was Jared Kushner was there. The son..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Aaron Zebley, one of the lead members of Robert Mueller's team who wrote the new book \"Interference: The Inside Story Of Trump, Russia And The Mueller Investigation.\" Zebley was Mueller's deputy during the investigation. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But you are right. Don Jr. attended and Manafort, Paul Manafort, the campaign chairman, attended. So those three folks were there. And so the offer that came into Don Jr. was, there's information that"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Aaron Zebley, one of the three lead members of Robert Mueller's team who wrote the new book \"Interference: The Inside Story Of Trump, Russia And The Mueller Investigation.\" Zebley was Mueller's deputy during the special counsel's investigation. The book describes what happened behind the scenes of the investigation and answers such questions as why the special counsel's office didn't subpoena President Trump, why no criminal charges were recommended against Trump and the reaction inside the office when then Attorney General William Barr released his own inaccurate summary of the investigation, leading Americans to misinterpret what the report's conclusions really were, and allowing Trump and the White House to incorrectly claim, the report found no obstruction and no collusion. At a press conference with Putin after Trump's first summit with Putin, Trump was asked about Putin and Russia and asked if Trump believes that Putin's denial of Russia's role in hacking Democratic leaders emails was true, and Trump said, Putin said it's not Russia. I will say this. I don't see any reason why it would be. What was your interpretation of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But you are right. Don Jr. attended and Manafort, Paul Manafort, the campaign chairman, attended. So those three folks were there. And so the offer that came into Don Jr. was, there's information that"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 27, "text": "Trump also said something referring to the 30,000 emails that were deleted from Hillary Clinton's private server when the Justice Department was investigating Hilary's emails on her personal server and whether there were government emails, including top-secret emails that shouldn't have been on a personal server. So Trump said, Russia, if you're listening, I hope you're able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing. I think you will probably be rewarded mightily by the press. Let's see if that happens. Is that something you could have used as evidence of some kind of collusion or cooperation or just like inappropriate, legally inappropriate behavior. Or could Trump have easily said, I was kidding, which is what he has said in the past about some things that he really shouldn't have said. He's also famous for not having a sense of humor.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can tell you my reaction was complete surprise. At that precise moment in time, when the president was standing at the podium with Putin to his side, and he was taking Putin's word, we had already r"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 28, "text": "Well, you know, I'm wondering, like, say you actually found obstruction, say you actually found conspiracy. If you felt like you couldn't indict Trump because of the rules surrounding what the special counsel could do and the rules surrounding, you know, what presidents can be held accountable for, in some ways, like, what was the point of the investigation? Though you did recommend criminal charges against other players.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We thought a lot about that, actually. So the other piece of what you just described - so that's July 2016. President Trump is giving a wide ranging press conference, and he uses words along the lines"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 29, "text": "You oversaw the drafting of the Mueller report, and you're right about how careful the wording was. You wanted to get every fact exactly right, to not be ambiguous. Everything was fact-checked. What were the problems you were trying to avoid?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I'd say two things. One is, under our circumstances, where we couldn't charge a sitting president, we thought it was still important to show that an investigation like this could be conducted in a "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 30, "text": "What was the main takeaway that you wanted Americans to get from the report?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One thing that was extremely important to us is that we conduct the investigation, every aspect of the investigation, and report on the investigation with complete integrity. And part of that is not d"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 31, "text": "And then you were very surprised when then Attorney General William Barr issued his own summary of your report, which mischaracterized your findings. Remind us of the main contradictions between what you wrote and what he said the Mueller report found.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Two or three big things - one is, Russia interfered in the 2016 election. It was no hoax. It happened then and actually, I think it's happening now. The second thing is there has to be a way to invest"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 32, "text": "And the legal judgments were?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd say there are two key pieces to that. On Russian election interference, Bill Barr completely omitted from his summary of the report that the Russians had weighed in in a way to favor Trump and har"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 33, "text": "So Barr said you found no evidence of collusion with the Russians or obstruction of justice. Did Barr give you any clue in advance that he was going to release his summary and not yours? And if you didn't have a clue, how did you find out? Did you find out, like, when I found out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one is that the obstruction of justice statute can apply to a president's use of his or her official power if the president is exercising their power corruptly. We think the obstruction of justi"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 34, "text": "What response did you get?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I would say there were clues, and we described this episode in the book. We turned in our report to Bill Barr on Friday. It was March 22, 2019. And on the Sunday - so two days later, which was M"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 35, "text": "Let's take a short break here. If you're just joining us, my guests Aaron Zebley, one of the three members of Robert Mueller's team who wrote the new book \"Interference: The Inside Story Of Trump, Russia, And The Mueller Investigation.\" He was Mueller's deputy during the investigation. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, a few hours later, the attorney general's letter came out."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 36, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Aaron Zebley, one of the three lead members of Robert Mueller's team who wrote the new book \"Interference: The Inside Story Of Trump, Russia, And The Mueller Investigation.\" What were your conversations with the Justice Department after Barr released his own version of the Mueller investigation and misrepresented your findings?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, a few hours later, the attorney general's letter came out."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 37, "text": "What was the response from the DOJ?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Similar to what you and I are talking about right now. Bill Barr's letter came out on that Sunday evening, March 24. The very next morning, I called the Department of Justice and said the letter is no"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 38, "text": "And you couldn't release it yourself. Could you have leaked it? Did you consider leaking it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they didn't release the executive summaries. And then we continued to press them over a few more days, and we continued to watch the media. And we continued to watch statements from Congress, an"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 39, "text": "What is it like when you're trying so hard to be principled, but you feel the Justice Department which you're reporting to is being unprincipled and is misrepresenting your findings, and that their version is becoming the official version of your report? So you're being principled, but you're being totally mischaracterized by the attorney general.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We didn't. As I said, we thought it was important to conduct ourselves in the most principled manner possible. And so we thought it was important to keep pressing and to operate according to the rules"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 40, "text": "So let's talk a little bit more about the Supreme Court decision at the end of the last term saying that presidents have immunity from criminal charges if it's attached to official business. How do you interpret that in terms of what it means for the future?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, this is one of the most troubling parts of the whole experience. There was a real cost to what you're describing. I don't think the public, when it was paying closest attention, really under"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 41, "text": "One of your criticisms of Bill Barr's summary of the Mueller report is that Barr's report underplayed the Russian threat to election integrity. And you outlined the Russian threat to the 2016 election. What are your fears about Russia interfering with the 2024 election?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm glad you asked the question that way because I think there's work to be done by the courts to figure out the exact boundaries of this decision. But what the court said was, the president is absolu"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 42, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one is that they're doing it. I just have that basic fear."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 43, "text": "Iran?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But the second part - and this is critical. There's been declarations that Russian election interference was a hoax, that it didn't happen, and there are some - there are many people in America who de"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 44, "text": "China?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 45, "text": "If you had the Mueller investigation to do over again, is there anything you would have done differently?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I presume so. I mean, on Iran and China, I'm not in government anymore, so I'm relying on public reports, but yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 46, "text": "Well, Aaron Zebley, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one thing we didn't anticipate is the way Bill Barr would handle the report once we turned it in. So I might think a little more deeply about how to deliver that report to potentially prevent th"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 47, "text": "And thanks for making public some of the behind-the-scenes story of the Mueller investigation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Appreciate the time. Thanks for having me."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-24", "guest": "Aaron Zebley", "title": "Mueller investigator says Russia interfered in 2016 -- and in the 2024 election too", "question_index": 48, "text": "Aaron Zebley was Special Counsel Robert Mueller's deputy and oversaw the editing of the Mueller report. Zebley is one of three leaders of the Mueller team who wrote the new book \"Interference: The Inside Story Of Trump, Russia And The Mueller Investigation.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My pleasure."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 0, "text": "A lot of the dialogue in \"The West Wing\" became known as the walk-and-talk, where two or more of the characters would be talking to each other, exchanging strategy or whatever as they walk through the hall. And, you know, in reality, a lot of this dialogue would probably be - a lot of these conversations would probably be held behind closed doors as opposed to in the hallway. So how did the walk-and-talk come into being?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Today we'll dip into our FRESH AIR archives and hear from both John Spencer and Allison Janney, but we'll begin with an interview with Aaron Sorkin. Terry Gross spoke with Aaron Sorkin in 2012, and th"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 1, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'll tell you exactly how. First of all, I don't write a lot of action. My first movie was \"A Few Good Men,\" which was based on my first play, and there's a scene in the movie where Tom Cruise is in h"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 2, "text": "And so it became like an institution of the show if - that's probably the wrong word, institution - but...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And because there's very little of visual interest in what I write, visual interest has to be created. And it was created by Tommy Schlamme - my partner on \"The West Wing,\" the principal director of \""}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 3, "text": "...Hallmark of the show - trademark - signature of the show. How's that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, but it..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It did."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 5, "text": "So there was a really funny parody of the walk-and-talk on \"30 Rock,\" and you were in the scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And again - and it was born because Tommy felt the need, and he was a hundred percent right that, you know, television, film, it is a visual medium, and you've got to create some kind of visual intere"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 6, "text": "I want to play the scene, so let me give this setup.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 7, "text": "So Liz Lemon, played by Tina Fey, has just found out the show that she writes for is going to be put on hiatus. So she's applying for a writing position on a TV singing competition called \"The Sing-Off,\" hosted by Nick Lachey...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 8, "text": "...Who became famous as a member of the boy band 98 Degrees. So while she's in the waiting room, waiting for this job interview, she's shocked to see you, Aaron Sorkin, waiting too. So here's the scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nick Lachey."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 9, "text": "That's so funny", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As himself) Mr. Lachey - huge fan. I have all your albums."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As himself) Mr. Lachey - huge fan. I have all your albums."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Did you write any of that yourself? Did you have any input?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Well, it was a lot of fun to do. It's a great group over there."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 12, "text": "So there's a line in there where she's given all your credits, and she says, Studio 60. And you say, shut up", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely not. That script was written by Robert Carlock, who's great. I also had a chance to - I've played the jerk version of myself a couple of times, and I got to do it on \"Entourage,\" too."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely not. That script was written by Robert Carlock, who's great. I also had a chance to - I've played the jerk version of myself a couple of times, and I got to do it on \"Entourage,\" too."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 14, "text": "OK. And for people who don't get the joke, you had a show that premiered the same season that \"30 Rock\" did called \"Studio 60 On The Sunset Strip.\" And like \"30 Rock,\" it was a behind-the-scenes show about a sketch comedy show kind of like \"Saturday Night Live.\" But yours was a drama and hers, you know, was a comedy. And a lot of people thought that hers was not going to make it and yours would, but it ended up being the other way around. So we've just heard you're very good at playing yourself. You used to play other people as well. You started off as an actor before you became a writer. Is that what you really wanted to do when you were growing up - was to act?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's actually the only tweak that I made because I thought that Robert Carlock, who wrote the script, was trying to be a little too respectful of me. So I just pitched the line to Tina, who th"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Should I say you start off trying to act?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think saying that I started off as an actor might be misleading. I - but there was..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 16, "text": "So you got your B.A. in musical theater. You loved musicals.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Bah, I didn't even give it much of a try. I - when I was very little, all I wanted to be was an actor. And I acted in all the school plays, and I was the head of the drama club, and I acted in communi"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 17, "text": "BF - oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "BFA - I have a Bachelor of Fine Arts degree."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 18, "text": "Do people expect that you will know the great books, and actually, you don't?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I have absolutely no liberal arts background at all and really no higher education to speak of it all. Like I said, my four years of college was a conservatory training program in theater, where "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 19, "text": "So we've established that you love musicals...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I am often mistaken for somebody who knows something, and I'm not. I create characters who know things. And I'm not just being self-deprecating. I think this is important. You know, the reaction"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 20, "text": "...And that - and just going back for a step - and that you have a degree in musical theater. Are you a good singer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I am awesome in the shower."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 22, "text": "So I know for a while you did singing telegrams.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 23, "text": "What were the telegrams?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 24, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were - I worked for a company called the Witty Ditty singing telegram company, and they would call you in the afternoon and say, you know, OK, I got a job for you. It's an anniversary. You're goi"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 25, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was remarkably uncreative. And I even remember thinking, you know, is it OK if I maybe rewrite some of the song?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 26, "text": "I think a lot of people first got to know you as C.J....", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're marking the 25th anniversary of the Peabody Award-winning NBC drama series \"The West Wing,\" a behind-the-scenes look at the inner workings of a fictional White House. Allison "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 27, "text": "...The press secretary on \"The West Wing.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 28, "text": "Let's hear a scene from that. And this is a scene, where President Bartlet had MS, but he was not telling people about it. And in this scene, Oliver Platt, who plays the White House counsel, has learned that the president has MS and has been keeping it from the public. And he's trying to figure out who on the White House staff knew and has been helping in the cover-up and who didn't. So here he is questioning you about whether you participated in covering up that information.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 29, "text": "That's my guest, Allison Janney, with Oliver Platt in a scene from \"The West Wing.\" So I always wonder, when you do that kind of snappy-retort type of Aaron Sorkin dialogue, does it improve your ability to have witty retorts in real life and to have razor-sharp dialogue when you're speaking extemporaneously?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As C.J. Craig) Many, many times. Ooh, C.J.'s in trouble."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 30, "text": "So when you were young, when you were a teenager, I think you didn't want to be an actor. You were thinking more about being a figure skater.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Unfortunately, that was the biggest disappointment - that that just didn't just, you know, seep into my skin and my brain and I was able to just speak like Aaron Sorkin writes the minute I left th"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 31, "text": "But then you had...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 32, "text": "...A really bad accident and injured your leg.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 33, "text": "What happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 34, "text": "Was your leg almost - was it at risk of amputation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was 17, and I was at a party that my - friends of my parents were throwing. It was an outdoor party, and there were these sliding doors, some of them open, some of them closed, right by the band. An"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 35, "text": "How did that figure, if at all, into your decision to act?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I lost - well, first of all, I lost, like, three-quarters of my blood. I lost an artery and cut tendon. And it was - I was in the hospital for, like, seven, eight weeks. I missed my firs"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 36, "text": "How tall are you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it definitely took out the possibility of being a skater, and I wasn't that good anyway. I was graceful, but I'm too big. I couldn't. It was - it's such an athletic sport. And I was very gracefu"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 37, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I am - you know, I say five-12. Ha-ha."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 38, "text": "Now, how did that affect you as a teenager? And how did it affect you as a young actress when you were getting started?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm definitely six feet. And in my heels, I'm six-three. Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 39, "text": "How would you describe your character and how he's changed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Leo McGarry) Then we'll blow them up again in six months. We're getting really good at it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 40, "text": "Let me ask you about something that happened in a recent episode. Your character is a former alcoholic...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think Leo is a man who's very impassioned about what he does. I think he's a politician in the best sense of the word - a caretaker, someone who is out for the ultimate good. I think he's a workahol"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 41, "text": "...Who hasn't touched - you know, hasn't touched a drink for several years. I forget...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 42, "text": "...How many.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 43, "text": "Recently, the fact that he had been to a rehab center was made public by a kind of new aide in the White House, someone who was very young. And was she an intern?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Eight."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 44, "text": "Yeah, she was an intern.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was an intern."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 45, "text": "OK. Well, so she secretly makes this file public, you know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She worked..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 46, "text": "...That you were in rehab.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 47, "text": "Yeah. I think...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She leaked it to a friend socially..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 48, "text": "And it gets into the press - really big story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And who was in the opposite political party, and he took the football and ran with it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 49, "text": "Very difficult for the White House to handle.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 50, "text": "One friend of yours suggests that you resign. He's no longer your friend, I think.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 51, "text": "And then when the story is traced back to the intern, she's fired. She comes into your office 'cause you've invited her in. You talk it through, and then you tell her to keep her job. And I was thinking, I wonder", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 52, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 53, "text": "...If the chief staff would really say to the intern who leaked something like this, go ahead. Keep your job.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 54, "text": "Was the chief of staff character originally written as a recovering alcoholic, or was that aspect of his character written in after you got the part because of your own experience?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I read a thing in The New Yorker magazine where they felt that was one of the few elements of Aaron's writing on this show that they didn't totally buy - that we would hire this woman back. You know, "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 55, "text": "What episode has gotten the biggest response? And do you find that Democrats and Republicans respond to either different storylines or different aspects of the story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, good question and often asked me. The truth of the matter is it was not originally written that way. I have since, because I've been asked this question so many times, gone to Aaron and said, li"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 56, "text": "How did you get the part as the chief of staff on \"The West Wing\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think Democrats and Republicans - people's political point of view comes into how they respond to the episodes. When our first episode went on, a lot of pundits sort of said, ah, liberal, left-wing "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 57, "text": "Now, were the other people cast with you to see if the chemistry would work?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's - I had just done another short-lived series for our executive producer John Wells, a thing called \"Trinity\" that was shooting in New York and was not well-received commercially. We couldn't get "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 58, "text": "And when was Martin Sheen cast as the president?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We were sort of cast one at a time, I guess, as they found the people they thought best suited each of the roles. Aaron says that this is the first time in his career that he got his first choice for "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 59, "text": "In TV, you're best known for your roles on \"LA Law\" and \"The West Wing.\" But your first recurring TV role was on \"The Patty Duke Show\"...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2000 interview with John Spencer, who played White House Chief of Staff Leo McGarry on the NBC series \"The West Wing.\" The Peabody Award-winning drama, whi"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 60, "text": "...As Cathy's boyfriend, the British identical cousin.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It certainly was."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 61, "text": "You don't even remember.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The British identical cousin. I forget - what was the role called? Henry Anderson, I think, was the guy's name."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 62, "text": "Why don't you refresh our memory and describe the character?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was 16. I'm 53 now, so it was a while ago. Yeah. What a lucky stroke. It was one of the first jobs I ever did in the show business. And it was a lucky break. I mean, they were basically castin"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 63, "text": "Were you in it from the first episode, or was the character written in later?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's kind of goofy. He was, you know, kind of a typical teenager in the '60s. I watch some of the reruns every once in a while, and I looked particularly tall and skinny to myself with very big ears a"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 64, "text": "Did she get a new boyfriend?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was recurring. I was only on the first two seasons."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 65, "text": "She was such a swinger. No, she wasn't.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Cathy kind of played the field, as I remember."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 66, "text": "Oh, of course.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, she wasn't. The other one was. Do you remember the theme song?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 67, "text": "Why didn't you sing it? I'm not going to.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I do, too."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 68, "text": "Now, when - you were in high school when you got the role.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can't sing it. I won't go near that. But it's amazing how many people do."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 69, "text": "Did...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 70, "text": "Well, could you walk down the halls of your high school without people singing the song to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was - go ahead."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 71, "text": "So your circle at the high school included ballet dancers, a soon-to-be-famous classical musician.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, at that point, I - when I was about 16, I left my New Jersey home and moved into New York City, much to my parents' chagrin. And God bless them for ultimately letting me do this, as petrified as"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 72, "text": "OK. So where in the ranking of everybody's aspirations was being on \"The Patty Duke Show\"? Was that seen as, like, having really made it and great work? Or did people look down on that? Like, where did that fit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Liza Minnelli, Jennifer O'Neill."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-09-27", "guest": "Jill Biden", "title": "Celebrating 25 years of 'The West Wing'", "question_index": 73, "text": "Well, I want to thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, well, we were - it's a very interesting thing. I think first and foremost, we were teenagers. We were very concerned with what girl was wearing what and how she looked and who we wanted to date an"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-04", "guest": "Janis Joplin", "title": "Remembering singer, songwriter and actor Kris Kristofferson", "question_index": 0, "text": "Kris Kristofferson, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Busted flat in Baton Rouge - heading for the trains, feeling nearly faded as my jeans. Bobby thumbed a diesel down just before it rained - took us all the way to New Orleans. I pulled my har"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-04", "guest": "Janis Joplin", "title": "Remembering singer, songwriter and actor Kris Kristofferson", "question_index": 1, "text": "Well, let me ask you a little bit about the song that we just heard, \"Me And Bobby McGee.\" What first inspired that song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks, Terry."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-04", "guest": "Janis Joplin", "title": "Remembering singer, songwriter and actor Kris Kristofferson", "question_index": 2, "text": "Boudleaux Bryant wrote a lot of songs for The Everly Brothers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Fred Foster, who owned Monument Records and Combine called me up, said he had a song title for me. It was \"Me And Bobbie McKee.\" I thought he said McGee, but actually, there was a girl named Bobbie Mc"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-04", "guest": "Janis Joplin", "title": "Remembering singer, songwriter and actor Kris Kristofferson", "question_index": 3, "text": "The most famous line from the song is, freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose. What inspired that line?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, he did. You're right on. And anyway, he said, the hook is Bobbie McKee is a she, you know? And I thought that sounded like the worst idea I'd ever heard of. But I wanted to write for - write some"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-04", "guest": "Janis Joplin", "title": "Remembering singer, songwriter and actor Kris Kristofferson", "question_index": 4, "text": "Tell me if I remember correctly. Did you have a house that burned down at about the time you wrote this song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's what the song was really about to me - was the double-edged sword, you know, that freedom is. And when I wrote that, some of my songwriter friends in Nashville told me to take it out of t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-04", "guest": "Janis Joplin", "title": "Remembering singer, songwriter and actor Kris Kristofferson", "question_index": 5, "text": "How did Janis Joplin end up recording this song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No. I had - I tell you what I had. I was living in a condemned building at the time, and, you know, the thing cost me, I think, $50 a month. And somebody had broken into it during the week that I "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-04", "guest": "Janis Joplin", "title": "Remembering singer, songwriter and actor Kris Kristofferson", "question_index": 6, "text": "What year did you first get to Nashville, and what was it like when you got there?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're remembering singer-songwriter and actor Kris Kristofferson by listening back to his 1999 interview. He died on Saturday."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-04", "guest": "Janis Joplin", "title": "Remembering singer, songwriter and actor Kris Kristofferson", "question_index": 7, "text": "There must've been some kind of life-changing thought that happened to you, since you'd been on this military career track. Your father had been a military career man. Was it a sudden change of heart or what that made you think I'm not going to teach at West Point, I'm going to try writing songs in Nashville?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I first went there in June of 1965 and was on my way back from a three-year tour in the Army in Germany - and was on my way to the career course down at Fort Benning and from there to supposedly to te"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-04", "guest": "Janis Joplin", "title": "Remembering singer, songwriter and actor Kris Kristofferson", "question_index": 8, "text": "How did you start making movies? Did you think, one day, I'm going to act?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had never intended to make the military a career or the academic life. I always thought that I would - I hoped that I would be a writer and be able to have a creative life, you know? And then,"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-04", "guest": "Janis Joplin", "title": "Remembering singer, songwriter and actor Kris Kristofferson", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well, I'd like to close with another song from your new CD, \"The Austin Sessions.\" And this is a song called \"The Pilgrim: Chapter 33.\" Now, this song is quoted in \"Taxi Driver.\" The Cybill Shepherd character, Betsy, buys the record for Travis, the taxi driver played by Robert De Niro. And she says that he reminds her of the character in the song, and she quotes the line, he's a walking contradiction, partly truth and partly fiction. How did the song end up in \"Taxi Driver\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I thought he just sang in the bar there at the Troubadour. But he helped me do a screen test for a film that was called \"Cisco Pike.\" And I got to put my music in it. And I was the lead in it, in a "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-04", "guest": "Janis Joplin", "title": "Remembering singer, songwriter and actor Kris Kristofferson", "question_index": 10, "text": "I guess you had already worked with him in \"Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. I always felt like that was the nicest thing that Marty Scorsese ever did to me, you know?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-04", "guest": "Janis Joplin", "title": "Remembering singer, songwriter and actor Kris Kristofferson", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I worked - yeah. Yeah, but I didn't know it was going to be in that one. And, God, he had - there's De Niro holding up my album."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-04", "guest": "Janis Joplin", "title": "Remembering singer, songwriter and actor Kris Kristofferson", "question_index": 12, "text": "And who did you write the song about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And they're quoting me like Bob Dylan or something. It was - I still think that's one of the sweetest things I've ever seen anybody do for anybody in the business."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-04", "guest": "Janis Joplin", "title": "Remembering singer, songwriter and actor Kris Kristofferson", "question_index": 13, "text": "So were you referring at all to how you and a lot of people you knew were kind of self-invented?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I wrote it about myself and about a lot of friends of mine that I thought were, you know - Ramblin' Jack Elliott, Chris Gantry and Johnny Cash and everybody I knew at the time. And a lot of us w"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-04", "guest": "Janis Joplin", "title": "Remembering singer, songwriter and actor Kris Kristofferson", "question_index": 14, "text": "And you're...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ooh, yes, yes - partly truth and partly fiction. You know, I've always felt that I and many of the people I admire are figments of our own imagination. I always felt that Willie Nelson, Muhammad Ali w"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-04", "guest": "Janis Joplin", "title": "Remembering singer, songwriter and actor Kris Kristofferson", "question_index": 15, "text": "Do you feel you did that, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I remember when I first saw Muhammad Ali, he was Cassius Clay. He was a little, skinny, light heavyweight over in Rome, and he was telling everybody he was going to be the biggest, the best. You know,"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-04", "guest": "Janis Joplin", "title": "Remembering singer, songwriter and actor Kris Kristofferson", "question_index": 16, "text": "Kris Kristofferson. His new CD, \"The Austin Sessions,\" features new versions of his best-known songs, including the song that's quoted in \"Taxi Driver.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I did. When I think back to when I first was writing my first songs - you know, like, when I was 11 years old, down in Brownsville, Texas - I think that I imagined myself into a pretty full li"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-10", "guest": "Etgar Keret", "title": "Internationally acclaimed Israeli writer Etgar Keret looks back on a year of war", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. What can a writer do to be helpful during wartime? That's a question my guest, the internationally acclaimed Israeli writer Etgar Keret, asked himself after the Hamas invasion of Israel one year ago this week. What he did was read to adults and to children who lived in the kibbutzim that were attacked. He went to the front lines to see what he could do to help Israeli soldiers, but he doesn't support the war or the Netanyahu government or Hamas or Hezbollah. He sees the humanity on both sides and has joined demonstrations in support of a deal that would release the hostages and end the fighting. He describes himself as a left-wing liberal and an agnostic. His parents were Holocaust survivors. His sister is ultra-Orthodox and previously lived in an Israeli settlement in the West Bank. His brother is far-left. Etgar Keret lives in Tel Aviv, which has recently come under missile attack from Hezbollah. During one recent missile attack, he left the bomb shelter prematurely. And on his way home, he was outside with no shelter, sitting on a rock, watching Israeli missile shields intercept Hezbollah rockets. Keret has written many op-eds over the past 35 years about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and he has continued to write and speak about it during this war. In the U.S., he's best known for his short stories and personal essays. In the public radio world, he's also known for his contributions to \"This American Life\" and for readings of his stories on \"Selected Shorts.\" His latest collection of short stories, \"Autocorrect,\" will be published in English next May. He also now has a weekly newsletter on Substack called \"Alphabet Soup.\" Keret is a lecturer at Ben-Gurion University of the Negev. He's won multiple awards in Israel and internationally, including the prime minister's award for literature and the chevalier medallion from France's Order of Arts and Letters. Next week, we'll hear from Palestinian writer and poet, Mosab Abu Toha. My interview with Etgar Keret was recorded yesterday morning. Etgar Keret, welcome back to FRESH AIR. You've written that in the past, during wars, that you didn't feel like those wars were an existential threat to Israel. But lately, you've been feeling like the Netanyahu government is making decisions that are an existential threat to Israel. But I'm wondering if, during this war, that you feel - since Israel is now fighting Hamas on one border and Hezbollah on another border, Iran and Israel have fired rockets at each other, Syria is becoming involved - if you feel like at this point that maybe is an existential threat to Israel.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-10", "guest": "Etgar Keret", "title": "Internationally acclaimed Israeli writer Etgar Keret looks back on a year of war", "question_index": 1, "text": "I want to ask you about something that happened to you recently. You were coming out of a yoga class. Was it in, like, a suburb of Tel Aviv or in Tel Aviv-Jaffa?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I think that many of the wars that Israel fought were existential in their nature. But with me, maybe because I've been through so many of them, I really trust the strength of the people and"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-10", "guest": "Etgar Keret", "title": "Internationally acclaimed Israeli writer Etgar Keret looks back on a year of war", "question_index": 2, "text": "A suburb?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-10", "guest": "Etgar Keret", "title": "Internationally acclaimed Israeli writer Etgar Keret looks back on a year of war", "question_index": 3, "text": "Yeah. So you come out, and the streets are empty, and the siren is going off, meaning that you need to get to a shelter. Can you describe what the shelter looked like and what it felt like to be there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In a suburb."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-10", "guest": "Etgar Keret", "title": "Internationally acclaimed Israeli writer Etgar Keret looks back on a year of war", "question_index": 4, "text": "Have you thought about leaving Israel? And I'm asking that because you don't support the government. You don't support the war. Your safety is threatened. I know you love your country, but you don't love what your government is getting your country into.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. So the shelter was really, really full. Many people are with themselves, you know, and they're stressed and talk to their loved ones who are being - in another shelter under another attack. But I"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-10", "guest": "Etgar Keret", "title": "Internationally acclaimed Israeli writer Etgar Keret looks back on a year of war", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I think that when you talk about the term country, you can talk about many different things. I think that, you know, I have an extremely strong connection, not to Israel, but I would s"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-10", "guest": "Etgar Keret", "title": "Internationally acclaimed Israeli writer Etgar Keret looks back on a year of war", "question_index": 6, "text": "If this isn't too personal, does your wife feel the same way about wanting to stay?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All my life, I go in the same roads. I sit in the same cafes. And I must say that my connection is very local and sensual or sensuous - I don't know which one is the correct one - but I feel that my c"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-10", "guest": "Etgar Keret", "title": "Internationally acclaimed Israeli writer Etgar Keret looks back on a year of war", "question_index": 7, "text": "Release all of the hostages now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that we never talked about anything pragmatic, so I would say that it's not as if - that she has any ideas, you know, to pack her bags and leave the country. But I think that both of us feel s"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-10", "guest": "Etgar Keret", "title": "Internationally acclaimed Israeli writer Etgar Keret looks back on a year of war", "question_index": 8, "text": "We need to take a short break here. So let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Israeli writer Etgar Keret. He's speaking to us from Tel Aviv. And we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Release all the hostages now. And when I hear that, I ask myself, what exactly am I doing? Who am I ordering? Am I yelling it to Sinwar? Am I yelling it to Netanyahu? Am I telling anyone something tha"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-10", "guest": "Etgar Keret", "title": "Internationally acclaimed Israeli writer Etgar Keret looks back on a year of war", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Israeli writer Etgar Keret, who's known for his collections of short stories, his personal essays and his op-eds. And his latest book, \"Autocorrect,\" will be published in English next May.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Release all the hostages now. And when I hear that, I ask myself, what exactly am I doing? Who am I ordering? Am I yelling it to Sinwar? Am I yelling it to Netanyahu? Am I telling anyone something tha"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-10", "guest": "Etgar Keret", "title": "Internationally acclaimed Israeli writer Etgar Keret looks back on a year of war", "question_index": 10, "text": "Sure, please.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If I may, can I tell you the strange things that happened to me a few weeks ago?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-10", "guest": "Etgar Keret", "title": "Internationally acclaimed Israeli writer Etgar Keret looks back on a year of war", "question_index": 11, "text": "So this man who had been a soldier in Gaza, the fact that he read your book over and over, almost like a prayer - did that make you feel like writing fiction actually had a value during times like this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was speaking at a reading event in the southern part of Tel Aviv in a very beautiful house. And when I finished the event, they told me that to leave the building, I had to go through a bar. They ha"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-10", "guest": "Etgar Keret", "title": "Internationally acclaimed Israeli writer Etgar Keret looks back on a year of war", "question_index": 12, "text": "You know, I liked your expression that some of these actions are taking a selfie with history or a selfie with reality. I think that's a very interesting way of putting it. So you had asked before, who were you talking to at protests when you chant, you know, all of them now, you know, release all of the hostages now? Are you talking to the leaders of Hamas? Are you talking to Netanyahu and Israel's government? You know, who are you talking to and what's the point? It's not like this is an idea that never occurred to them. Oh, maybe we should think of releasing the hostages and ending this war. But I'm wondering if you think that part of the reason that you participate in protests is also to send a message to people outside of Israel that there are Israelis who oppose the war and who don't agree with the Netanyahu government, either on domestic policy or on the way they're handling this war. I ask that in part because I think that a lot of people in America and in other parts of the world, equate all Israelis with the Netanyahu government and the way the war is being handled? And that has, I think, increased the rise of anti-Israeli sentiment directed at all Israelis and also helped increase antisemitism. And you know, the protests are a way of sending a message to the rest of the world, not all Israelis agree with Netanyahu or with the war. Do you think that's part of the reason why you protest?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, when you put a dog tag in the army, it means that you never take it off. When you shower, when you sleep, it's always with you. So what does it mean when you say, I'm tying my fate with the "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-10", "guest": "Etgar Keret", "title": "Internationally acclaimed Israeli writer Etgar Keret looks back on a year of war", "question_index": 13, "text": "We need to take another short break here. So let me reintroduce you. My guest is Israeli writer Etgar Keret. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I must say that, you know, that when you go to a protest, it's really - I don't know - like going to a synagogue or a church. Everyone comes there with their own story. And I must say that the s"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-10", "guest": "Etgar Keret", "title": "Internationally acclaimed Israeli writer Etgar Keret looks back on a year of war", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Etgar Keret, one of Israel's most popular writers, who is internationally acclaimed for his short stories, graphic novels, personal essays and op-eds. He lives in Tel Aviv, which has recently come under missile attack from Hezbollah. His latest collection of short stories, \"Autocorrect,\" will be published in English next May. Next week - probably Tuesday - our guest will be Palestinian writer Mosab Abu Toha. My interview with Etgar Keret was recorded yesterday morning. Since we've talked about protests in Israel, I'm wondering your reaction to protests in America against the war and the protests that have been described as pro-Palestinian.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I must say that, you know, that when you go to a protest, it's really - I don't know - like going to a synagogue or a church. Everyone comes there with their own story. And I must say that the s"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-10", "guest": "Etgar Keret", "title": "Internationally acclaimed Israeli writer Etgar Keret looks back on a year of war", "question_index": 15, "text": "You object to the use of the word genocide in terms of what Israel is doing in this war, but you do want to use the word war crimes. Can you just talk briefly about the language of those two things - genocide versus war crime?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first of all, I want to say something about this term pro-Palestinian or pro-Israeli. I once wrote an op-ed to The New York Times saying how I hate this term, because when somebody says to you t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-10", "guest": "Etgar Keret", "title": "Internationally acclaimed Israeli writer Etgar Keret looks back on a year of war", "question_index": 16, "text": "So after Hamas invaded Israel and massacred people there and kidnapped others on October 7, you wanted to do something. You wanted to take some kind of meaningful and helpful action. What did you think you would be suited to do as a writer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I think that, you know - with the discussion about the genocide in Gaza, I personally think that there are many, many conducts that are being done that I cannot advocate or support, that when I l"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-10", "guest": "Etgar Keret", "title": "Internationally acclaimed Israeli writer Etgar Keret looks back on a year of war", "question_index": 17, "text": "You also went to the frontline. What was the frontline, and what was happening there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the truth is that everybody needed help. And I think that the things that people needed the most were drivers, and I don't drive. I always thought it was kind of, like, cute that I don't drive, "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-10", "guest": "Etgar Keret", "title": "Internationally acclaimed Israeli writer Etgar Keret looks back on a year of war", "question_index": 18, "text": "A very different experience from your typical reading because you've done readings around the world. So what are you able to do now? Are you still asking yourself the same question that you asked yourself on October 8 after the attack, like, what can you do now to help Israelis who have suffered or have loved ones who have, you know, been killed or suffered?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had a phone call from a bereaved father who was telling me that he's actually bringing books to the front line, you know, to writers. And there was something about this initiative that immediately t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-10", "guest": "Etgar Keret", "title": "Internationally acclaimed Israeli writer Etgar Keret looks back on a year of war", "question_index": 19, "text": "A lot of strangers have been asking you for help or from advice. What are some of the asks that you've gotten? And have you been able to do anything to help?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that, you know, there is something about these years that also teaches you a lot of humility. You learn that, you know, that there's very little that you can do, that you're not omnipotent, an"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-10", "guest": "Etgar Keret", "title": "Internationally acclaimed Israeli writer Etgar Keret looks back on a year of war", "question_index": 20, "text": "From jumping out of the bush. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that the things that people had asked me to do were kind of all over the place, you know, from..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-10", "guest": "Etgar Keret", "title": "Internationally acclaimed Israeli writer Etgar Keret looks back on a year of war", "question_index": 21, "text": "Had you ever thought before of writing a story about a crocodile?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Or, for example, before the invasion to Gaza, I got a WhatsApp message from an officer that sent me the details of his ex-girlfriend. They ended badly, and he asked me that if he dies in Gaza, that I'"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-10", "guest": "Etgar Keret", "title": "Internationally acclaimed Israeli writer Etgar Keret looks back on a year of war", "question_index": 22, "text": "Let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Israeli writer Etgar Keret. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no. And I never before thought about writing a story together with a 19-year-old amputated kid. You know, I think that there was something about the functions of stories that had changed because b"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-10", "guest": "Etgar Keret", "title": "Internationally acclaimed Israeli writer Etgar Keret looks back on a year of war", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Israeli writer Etgar Keret, who's known for his collections of short stories, his personal essays, and his Op-Eds. I spoke to him yesterday. He was in Tel Aviv when we spoke. When we spoke in 2006 during a war between Israel and Lebanon, your son was 7 months old. So that means he's now...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no. And I never before thought about writing a story together with a 19-year-old amputated kid. You know, I think that there was something about the functions of stories that had changed because b"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-10", "guest": "Etgar Keret", "title": "Internationally acclaimed Israeli writer Etgar Keret looks back on a year of war", "question_index": 24, "text": "So that's military age. Is he in the military now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A little bit over 18."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-10", "guest": "Etgar Keret", "title": "Internationally acclaimed Israeli writer Etgar Keret looks back on a year of war", "question_index": 25, "text": "How do you feel about that since you don't support Israel and the way it's been handling the war?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's going to get drafted next month."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-10", "guest": "Etgar Keret", "title": "Internationally acclaimed Israeli writer Etgar Keret looks back on a year of war", "question_index": 26, "text": "I understand.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't know. I must say that this is a very difficult topic for me."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-10", "guest": "Etgar Keret", "title": "Internationally acclaimed Israeli writer Etgar Keret looks back on a year of war", "question_index": 27, "text": "Your sister is ultraorthodox and used to live in an Israeli settlement in the West Bank. Your brother you describe as being, you know, very left-wing. Your parents were Holocaust survivors, and they were more right-wing, right? And you describe yourself as a left-wing liberal. Do you think the, like, diversity of beliefs and opinions in your family is kind of representative of Israel?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I think that, you know, for a parent, the scariest thing is that their child would be in danger. You know, there are many fairy tales, like - I don't know - \"Sleeping Beauty\" and stories like that "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-10", "guest": "Etgar Keret", "title": "Internationally acclaimed Israeli writer Etgar Keret looks back on a year of war", "question_index": 28, "text": "We need to take a short break here. So let me reintroduce you, and then we'll be right back. If you're just joining us, my guest is Israeli writer Etgar Keret. He's speaking to us from Tel Aviv, and we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that there was something in the ecosystem of my family that we had diverse opinions, as you have in all of Israel. But we also had this strong love among us. And my father would always say tha"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-10", "guest": "Etgar Keret", "title": "Internationally acclaimed Israeli writer Etgar Keret looks back on a year of war", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Israeli writer Etgar Keret, who's known for his collections of short stories, his personal essays and his op-eds. And his latest book, \"Autocorrect,\" will be published in English next May. Your parents were from Poland. They were Holocaust survivors. How did they get to Israel?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that there was something in the ecosystem of my family that we had diverse opinions, as you have in all of Israel. But we also had this strong love among us. And my father would always say tha"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-10", "guest": "Etgar Keret", "title": "Internationally acclaimed Israeli writer Etgar Keret looks back on a year of war", "question_index": 30, "text": "And they were able to become legal immigrants?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Both my parents got to Israel on boats before '48, so it was illegal for them to come. So they were illegal immigrants to Israel."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-10", "guest": "Etgar Keret", "title": "Internationally acclaimed Israeli writer Etgar Keret looks back on a year of war", "question_index": 31, "text": "Being immigrants, did they ever feel like Israel was their real home? Or did they feel like their home was what they left behind in Poland?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. The idea was that it was impossible for them to go through the borders legally. But the moment that they got to Israel, they were just there."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-10", "guest": "Etgar Keret", "title": "Internationally acclaimed Israeli writer Etgar Keret looks back on a year of war", "question_index": 32, "text": "You wrote a piece about your mother, who died five years ago, and that a lot of your friends are grateful that their parents aren't alive to see and perhaps to be a victim of what's happened ever since Hamas invaded Israel a year ago. But you wish your mother was alive because you think it would be very helpful to you to have her there and to have her advice. Do you think that having survived the Holocaust and found shelter in Israel would have affected how she experienced this time and how you experienced this time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that both of them had so much pain and suffering associated with the war, and they had lost so much - my mother had lost her entire family and my father had lost his sister - that the only thi"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-10", "guest": "Etgar Keret", "title": "Internationally acclaimed Israeli writer Etgar Keret looks back on a year of war", "question_index": 33, "text": "Sorry to have to end, but our time is literally running out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that what I learned from my parents, especially from my mother, was the importance of controlling your own story - how important it is that when you live inside a reality, you don't let people"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-10", "guest": "Etgar Keret", "title": "Internationally acclaimed Israeli writer Etgar Keret looks back on a year of war", "question_index": 34, "text": "And I want to take a few seconds to thank you very much and to wish you well during this war and safety to you and your family.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-10", "guest": "Etgar Keret", "title": "Internationally acclaimed Israeli writer Etgar Keret looks back on a year of war", "question_index": 35, "text": "Etgar Keret is an Israeli writer living in Tel Aviv, where he spoke to us from. His latest book, \"Autocorrect,\" will be published next May. His newsletter, \"Alphabet Soup,\" is on Substack. Our interview was recorded yesterday morning. Next week - probably Tuesday - we'll hear from Palestinian writer Mosab Abu Toha. If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, like this week's interviews with Jeremy Strong, songwriter, performer and producer Pharrell Williams and Will Ferrell with his former \"SNL\" writing partner, Harper Steele, who came out as a trans woman, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. And to find out what's happening behind the scenes of our show and get our producers' recommendations for what to watch, read and listen to, subscribe to our free newsletter at whyy.org/freshair.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. Thank you very much."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-10", "guest": "Etgar Keret", "title": "Internationally acclaimed Israeli writer Etgar Keret looks back on a year of war", "question_index": 36, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer is Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Ann Marie Baldonado, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Susan Nyakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producers are Molly Seavy-Nesper and Sabrina Siewert. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. Thank you very much."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 0, "text": "Cissy Houston, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) God in all creation. God when Adam fell, Adam fell. God way up in heaven - good God Almighty, now - God way down in hell. Oh, He's God, He's God. God don't ever change. He's God - He's God, "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 1, "text": "So how old were you when you started singing in the family group?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so very much for having me."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 2, "text": "You must develop a great ear for harmony when you start singing close harmony at the age of 5.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 3, "text": "So how did you first start hearing secular music? And who were some of the performers that you first heard?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For sure. I really did. And I prefer it. I like, a lot of times, a cappella. That is first and foremost in teaching, as far as I'm concerned, that the harmonies be right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 4, "text": "I'd love to hear the story of how you became a backup singer. I think that Dionne Warwick relates to this story. Dionne Warwick and her sister, Dee Dee, were backup singers. And had you known them from church choir?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Dinah Washington was one of my favorite people, and I love her. Today, I love her. Sarah Vaughan went to school with my sister, so she lived in the neighborhood also. I listened to her and Jimmy"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 5, "text": "They're your nieces.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, they're my nieces."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 6, "text": "Oh, oh, oh. Wow - small world.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, they are."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 7, "text": "So how does Dionne Warwick's having been a backup singer relate to you having become one?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Both of them are."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 8, "text": "Managing The Shirelles or Dionne Warwick?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, actually Dionne had something else to do that night with The Shirelles, and my husband was managing them at the time."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 9, "text": "After singing backup for a while, you ended up singing with Aretha Franklin as one of her backup singers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no, Dionne and her group, background singers - Dee Dee, Dionne and another kid, Sylvia. And he was managing them, and he had a session to do. And of course, he couldn't stop her from going wit"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 10, "text": "And in your memoir, you say that one of your favorites of the Aretha tracks is \"Natural Woman,\" and you worked out the background parts on this. Can you tell us a little bit about how you did that, what you were looking for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, well, I worked with Aretha when she was at Columbia also, the earlier days before she got to Atlantic, when she did some marvelous music. Just wasn't appreciated, I guess, like it should've been"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 11, "text": "Now, did you come up with the aah-oohs, or was that a producer who suggested that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It was just, you know, repeating and thinking about, you know, doing something. And you try one thing, and that works or doesn't work. You try something else."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 12, "text": "That was you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, that was me."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 13, "text": "I always wonder, like, how do you know what syllable to use? Like, why aah-ooh instead of ooh-aah or ooh-aah-ooh or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mm-hmm (ph)."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, why don't we hear \"Natural Woman, \" Aretha Franklin? Cissy Houston is one of the backup singers on this, and she did the vocal arrangements, the harmonies.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Neither do I. I don't know why. You try the one that works, I guess."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 15, "text": "That's Aretha Franklin with Cissy Houston, my guest, as one of the backup singers. And she did the vocal harmonies for that track. Cissy Houston, did you feel a connection to Aretha Franklin through gospel music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) When my soul was in the lost and found, you came along to claim it. I didn't know just what was wrong with me till your kiss helped me name it. Now I'm no longer doubtful of what I'm living "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 16, "text": "And when you were doing backup vocals for Aretha Franklin, did you find that everything you needed to know, you knew from gospel music, that the harmonies you were using came out of gospel music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Somewhat because we both were in gospel music, did the same kind of, you know, thing, stirring kind of gospel. And, yes, I felt, like, a camaraderie with her."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 17, "text": "Now, how would you record in the studio? Did you all sing at the same time, or was everything overdubbed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure. Oh, sure. One thing about us, we pushed one another. We would just, you know - we'd feed off one another, which made it a terrific sound and such a great, you know, audience participation. T"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 18, "text": "What was your preference?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, well, sometimes we sang at the same time. With Aretha, at that point, yeah, everything was overdubbed. On Columbia, now, we sang at the same time. She sang in a booth, and we were in either maybe "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 19, "text": "What did you enjoy and what didn't you like about singing backup?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, booth is good. And overdubbing is greater because you can really get a down sound, you know, good sound, balance and all that kind of business. And things that you think of, you know, that might"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 20, "text": "Now, you had an album of your own in the mid-'70s that has since been reissued. And on this, you were the lead singer, all secular songs, all cover recordings. And, in fact, why don't we pause here and listen to a cover you did of one of your niece's hits?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1998 interview with gospel and backup singer Cissy Houston. She died Monday at the age of 91."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 21, "text": "And this is \"I Just Don't Know What To Do With Myself, \" one of the Burt Bacharach songs. Do you want to say anything about recording this and doing it your way?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1998 interview with gospel and backup singer Cissy Houston. She died Monday at the age of 91."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 22, "text": "Why don't we hear it? And this is from the mid-'70s, Cissy Houston.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I always - I just liked the song. Always did. And there was no kind of reason to cover it but I just - except that I just liked the song and wanted to try it another way."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 23, "text": "That's Cissy Houston from a secular album that she made in the mid-'70s. Now, where were you in your career when your daughter, Whitney Houston, was born?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Somebody. Won't you help me? Somebody. 'Cause I don't know what to do with myself. Just don't know what to do with myself. I'm so used to doing everything with you, planning everything for t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 24, "text": "What were you recording?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was pretty much doing a lot - a great deal of backgrounds. In fact, I was in the studio the night before I went to the hospital."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well, it must have been hard to take those big, deep breaths you need to sing when you were, you know, ready to give birth.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know what we were recording. We were recording - I was putting on somebody - I imagine it was for Aretha or somebody like that. And Tom Dowd, who was the engineer at that point, said, Cissy, a"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 26, "text": "So when you became a mother and you were on the road a lot, you know, in recording studios and, I guess, doing some performing as well, when did you decide to come off the road?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not really. You don't even think about it, you know? I was singing like a mockingbird when I was pregnant."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 27, "text": "What?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it just - I really got tired. I got tired of hearing my children cry, Mommy, why do you have to go? Da, da, da, da. And I had decided that I would do something else by myself."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 28, "text": "You want to give us an example of what you mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And - well, I was becoming an artist in my own right, and I had an opportunity to do so. And that's when I left the Sweet Inspirations and became a single artist because I was the oldest one of the gr"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 29, "text": "No. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 30, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not really - just clothes that, you know, didn't become me."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 31, "text": "When did you realize that Whitney could really sing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's all."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 32, "text": "And when you realized that she wanted to sing professionally, did you try to encourage or discourage her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess she was - must have been around 11 when she really sang her first solo, and it was great. She - before that, she always liked to practice in the basement of some kind, and she loved to dance a"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 33, "text": "If you don't mind my asking, your speaking voice today sounds a little raspy. Your singing...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I tried to tell her of the - all the negatives, you know? And there were so many positives also. But it's your choices that you make."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 34, "text": "...Voice sounds really full and clear.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 35, "text": "Does your voice kind of change during the day, or is your singing voice and your speaking voice different, or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 36, "text": "It's different.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's different."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 37, "text": "Oh, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Everybody's always so surprised when I sing so high, right?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 38, "text": "Right. OK. OK. And what's it like for you to sing in a range that's different from your speaking range? Has it always been that way, or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And my voice is so - really low. Like you said, it's raspy. And - but I am tired. I have a cold, so that's probably why. I'm usually not this raspy."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 39, "text": "Even when you were a girl, you were singing higher than you were speaking.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's always been that way."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 40, "text": "Right. I think a lot of listeners, when they hear, say, an Aretha Franklin record, act as if they are one of the backup singers", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was a contralto when I was a kid - very low voice, very low, very deep and pronounced, you know? It was wonderful, like an organ. And I always wanted to sing high, so to develop my range, that's wha"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 41, "text": "singing along. It's actually, I think, a lifelong fantasy of a lot of people to have been - I guess, to have been you in a way - to have been the backup singer on Aretha's records. And I'm wondering, like, do you sing backups when you hear one of those records played back, say, in a restaurant...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was a contralto when I was a kid - very low voice, very low, very deep and pronounced, you know? It was wonderful, like an organ. And I always wanted to sing high, so to develop my range, that's wha"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 42, "text": "...Or something?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All the time."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 43, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All the time. In fact, rather than learn the lead parts, I'm usually doing the background, you know?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 44, "text": "It sure was. Do you have a favorite of all the records you've sung backups on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In my house or whatever, you know? I think that's the most - they made a lot of the record sound. You know, the background was most important."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 45, "text": "Oh, I guess I should have realized that. You're doing the backups on Whitney's records.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 46, "text": "That must have felt good.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Some of them, yeah. \"I Want To Dance With Somebody\" and \"How Will I Know\" and ones of - oh, I forget the name of the other one. It was a slow one about her man - \"My Man\" - whatever. Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-11", "guest": "Cissy Houston", "title": "Remembering gospel singer and backup vocalist Cissy Houston", "question_index": 47, "text": "Well, I want to thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It felt very, very good. It felt odd, you know? I'm doing the backup on my baby's - my kid's record, you know? And it was great. It was great."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Tom Petty to 'Fresh Air': 'The songs mean a lot to people, and it means a lot to me'", "question_index": 0, "text": "What's a song you did that with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Everything. You know, I still see it as this really magical thing, and it was wonderful. I didn't have the money to have a vast record collection. So I learned everything, really, from the radio. And "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Tom Petty to 'Fresh Air': 'The songs mean a lot to people, and it means a lot to me'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Oh, and fast, too", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'll tell you, the hardest one was \"Get Off Of My Cloud\" by the Stones. It had so many words."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Tom Petty to 'Fresh Air': 'The songs mean a lot to people, and it means a lot to me'", "question_index": 2, "text": ", yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'll tell you, the hardest one was \"Get Off Of My Cloud\" by the Stones. It had so many words."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Tom Petty to 'Fresh Air': 'The songs mean a lot to people, and it means a lot to me'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Well, I want to play another track from your new CD, \"Highway Companion.\" And this is a song called \"Down South.\" Is there a story behind the song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, and yeah, and it took us a good three hours to get that one written down. But it was that kind of thing. It was a friend, you know? We - and it was something that was there. You didn't really thin"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Tom Petty to 'Fresh Air': 'The songs mean a lot to people, and it means a lot to me'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Well, why don't we hear it? This is \"Down South\" from Tom Petty's new CD, \"Highway Companion.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. This was a - I had a - a long time ago, I had done a conceptual record about the South called \"Southern Accents.\" And this one was inspired by a book by a fellow named Warren Zanes - had written"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Tom Petty to 'Fresh Air': 'The songs mean a lot to people, and it means a lot to me'", "question_index": 5, "text": "That's \"Down South\" from Tom Petty's new CD, \"Highway Companion.\" I want to ask you about a couple of lines in that song. You said you're not quite sure who the character is in it, but the song has, headed back down South, going to see my Daddy's mistress, going to buy back her forgiveness. Did you go back home to see your father's mistresses? Is that part of the character you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Heading back down South, going to see my daddy's mistress, going to buy back her forgiveness, going to pay off every witness. One more time down South - and sell the family headstones and dr"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Tom Petty to 'Fresh Air': 'The songs mean a lot to people, and it means a lot to me'", "question_index": 6, "text": "Something I want to mention about the track that we just heard - you know it has that kind of jangly rhythm guitar...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I - you know, I don't really know where the - I guess the line just popped into my head, and it seemed a good way to start it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Tom Petty to 'Fresh Air': 'The songs mean a lot to people, and it means a lot to me'", "question_index": 7, "text": "...That you play. How did you start playing in that style?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Tom Petty to 'Fresh Air': 'The songs mean a lot to people, and it means a lot to me'", "question_index": 8, "text": "You grew up in Gainesville, Florida.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. It just appeared. I think we were inspired a lot by Roger McGuinn of the Byrds and his 12-string playing. And it was just something that came to me naturally, and I kind of took it from "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Tom Petty to 'Fresh Air': 'The songs mean a lot to people, and it means a lot to me'", "question_index": 9, "text": "I think there's a branch of the University of Florida in Gainesville, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Tom Petty to 'Fresh Air': 'The songs mean a lot to people, and it means a lot to me'", "question_index": 10, "text": "So were you in a college part of Gainesville, or were you in a different part of town?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is there, the University of Florida, the whole thing."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Tom Petty to 'Fresh Air': 'The songs mean a lot to people, and it means a lot to me'", "question_index": 11, "text": "What did your parents do for a living?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wasn't part of the academic circle, but it's an interesting place because you can meet almost any kind of person from many walks of life because of the university. But it's really surrounded by this"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Tom Petty to 'Fresh Air': 'The songs mean a lot to people, and it means a lot to me'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Now, you had an uncle - I guess this is a famous story in your life, because you got to meet Elvis Presley on a movie set when you were 11 through an uncle of yours who was doing something on the set, though I'm not sure what.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my mother worked in the tax collector's office as a clerk. And my dad had a variety of jobs, you know, from - at one point, he owned the only grocery store in the Black part of town, the only Bl"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Tom Petty to 'Fresh Air': 'The songs mean a lot to people, and it means a lot to me'", "question_index": 13, "text": "So how long did it take after that until you started to play something yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah, I had an uncle by marriage who was the kind of - he was very into film. He was the guy in town that developed all the film, and he had a movie camera. He used to film the college basketbal"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Tom Petty to 'Fresh Air': 'The songs mean a lot to people, and it means a lot to me'", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the idea had never dawned on me until I saw the Beatles on \"The Ed Sullivan Show, \" like so many musicians did. When I saw it, you know, I didn't think you could just become a rock 'n' roll sing"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Tom Petty to 'Fresh Air': 'The songs mean a lot to people, and it means a lot to me'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Let me play another song that was - it's a great song, and it was a very popular song of yours. Johnny Cash recorded the song late in his life. And the song is \"I Won't Back Down,\" which you recorded in 1989. I know it's hard to talk about writing songs, but is there a story behind this one?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2006 interview with Tom Petty. The new TV series \"Bad Monkey\" features covers of many of his songs with the Heartbreakers. Recently, their 1982 album \"Long"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Tom Petty to 'Fresh Air': 'The songs mean a lot to people, and it means a lot to me'", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, let's hear it. From 1989, this is Tom Petty.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wrote this song with Jeff Lynne. We wrote it in the studio while we were mixing another song. And it came very quickly. And I was actually worried about it. I thought that it was maybe just too dire"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Tom Petty to 'Fresh Air': 'The songs mean a lot to people, and it means a lot to me'", "question_index": 17, "text": "You recorded that song just a couple of years after an arsonist burned down your house. And the house was set on fire while you and your family were in it. Did your instincts kick in like they were supposed to when you realized that your house was on fire and that you and your wife and child had to get out of there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Well, I won't back down. No, I won't back down. You can stand up me at the gates of hell, but I won't back down. No, I'll stand my ground - won't be turned around. And I'll keep this world f"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Tom Petty to 'Fresh Air': 'The songs mean a lot to people, and it means a lot to me'", "question_index": 18, "text": "You're kidding. Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They kick in pretty fast, you know, when your house is on fire. Yeah, they kicked in really fast, and it was a pretty horrific thing to happen. And I did just survive with, you know, the clothes on my"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Tom Petty to 'Fresh Air': 'The songs mean a lot to people, and it means a lot to me'", "question_index": 19, "text": "Well, Tom Petty, thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, yeah. They were confessing from all over America. And it was like, you know, people in New Jersey would call and confess. Then I realized just how bonkers people are. You know, It's like, yo"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Sterlin Harjo says 'Reservation Dogs' gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 0, "text": "I love that scene so much, and I love the series. Sterlin Harjo, welcome to FRESH AIR, and thank you for \"Reservation Dogs.\" Can you talk a little bit about...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Spirit) Being a warrior, it's not always easy. You and your thuggy-a** friends - what are you doing for your people? It's easy to be bad. But it's hard to be a warrior with dignity. Remember that."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Sterlin Harjo says 'Reservation Dogs' gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 1, "text": "...Coming up with a way to both satirize pop culture images of Indians and also just, like, come up with really comedic Indian characters, but also to create a sense of understanding of the importance of traditions? It's a lot to do all at once.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Sterlin Harjo says 'Reservation Dogs' gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 2, "text": "Oh, thank you so much for that. You made my day.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So thanks for making my dreams come true today."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Sterlin Harjo says 'Reservation Dogs' gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 3, "text": "While we're on the subject of permission...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. But, yeah, you know, I think that that character in that scene is crucial. And I think, you know, most of the time people are very precious with Native people and, like, you know, you don't - th"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Sterlin Harjo says 'Reservation Dogs' gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 4, "text": "...I had asked you before we started, like, what word do you like to use? Do you like to use Indian, Native American, Indigenous? And the term that you don't want to use is Native American. But some people say that, you know, as a white person, like, white people shouldn't use the word Indian. So before everybody kind of gets annoyed with me or I get annoyed with myself or you get annoyed with me...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Sterlin Harjo says 'Reservation Dogs' gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 5, "text": "...Just help me out here. Like, what works?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Sterlin Harjo says 'Reservation Dogs' gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For me - I mean, look. I grew up - my grandma said Indian, so I'm not here to change what my grandma said. And it's what I know. I'm sorry that Christopher Columbus got it wrong."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Sterlin Harjo says 'Reservation Dogs' gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 7, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But that's what we call ourselves, you know? And, like, we also - I also say Native, and I say Indigenous. Just depending on where I'm at and who I'm talking to, I will - those are all interchangeable"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Sterlin Harjo says 'Reservation Dogs' gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 8, "text": "All right. So the series is called \"Reservation Dogs,\" an homage to \"Reservoir Dogs,\" Quentin Tarantino's film. What did that film mean to you - and the sensibility that he created in it, which was really something new?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And Native American is just a mouthful. You know, I don't want to have to sit around and - it just - you know, it wastes time."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Sterlin Harjo says 'Reservation Dogs' gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 9, "text": "Absolutely, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it came out when I was in college, and it was right as I discovered that I could be a filmmaker. And, you know, there's something about Tarantino's love for cinema. It's like - that's the same thin"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Sterlin Harjo says 'Reservation Dogs' gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 10, "text": "When you were growing up, were you growing up, like, on the reservation or near the reservation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then it was, well, if we're going to have this show where these kids are living through and constantly referencing pop culture, like, we have to tip our hat to the master of that."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Sterlin Harjo says 'Reservation Dogs' gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 11, "text": "You know, in talking about the influence of pop culture on the characters, on the young characters in your show - on some of the older characters, too - the younger characters are so influenced by Black pop culture, by rap, their style of speaking. I found that very interesting. And I'm wondering if there were many Black people where you were growing up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, well, right now, there are - like, right now, I live on the Muscogee Reservation, which is part of Tulsa. Through a lot of complicated government policy and interactions with tribal governments "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Sterlin Harjo says 'Reservation Dogs' gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 12, "text": "So in the series, you know, dead loved ones return as ghosts. What are your experiences with keeping up a relationship with, you know, family, friends who have died and you want to keep in your life? Were you brought up with the idea that they are still spirits or ghosts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2022 interview with Sterlin Harjo, the cocreator of the hit TV series \"Reservation Dogs.\" This year, he was awarded the MacArthur Fellowship - better known"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Sterlin Harjo says 'Reservation Dogs' gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 13, "text": "So the teenagers in your TV series, they want to leave the reservation. And two of them actually get out and go to California, end up coming back. What about you? Did you want to, like, get away? - 'cause I know you're living back in Oklahoma, in Tulsa, and I know you went to college in Oklahoma. So did you feel this push and pull between leaving and staying?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I think that part of growing up with Muscogee and Seminole culture is death is such a part of our experience. You know, it's very community driven. You know, your cousins are like your broth"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Sterlin Harjo says 'Reservation Dogs' gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 14, "text": "Can you tell us something about your parents?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, like, you know, like a lot of people, I wanted to leave, and art was kind of exploding for me. Like, I always wanted to be an artist. And when I got to college, I was kind of blown away "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Sterlin Harjo says 'Reservation Dogs' gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 15, "text": "Oh. Oh, 'cause one of your main characters learns to be a roofer and then bonds with one of the people teaching him how.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. My parents - my dad roofed houses when I was young."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Sterlin Harjo says 'Reservation Dogs' gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 16, "text": "Did you learn how to fight?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And I'd never seen that on TV, you know, or movies - something that took place on a roof like that. And, like, it was such a part of - my uncles were roofers, my dad. My dad also taught martial"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Sterlin Harjo says 'Reservation Dogs' gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 17, "text": "Doing what?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. I was a competitive fighter growing up from the age of 4. I think there's a video of my first fight. My dad still teaches martial arts to this day in rural Oklahoma. And my mom worked for the t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Sterlin Harjo says 'Reservation Dogs' gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 18, "text": "She must be so proud of you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When she worked - she was a secretary for the chief of the Seminole Nation when I was young. You know, now what she does with the Bureau of Indian Affairs is she kind of oversees - like, there was so "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Sterlin Harjo says 'Reservation Dogs' gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 19, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, man. My parents are so overjoyed about the show. My dad said something to me the other day. After the first season came out, my dad one day said to me - he said, you know, you gave Native people a"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Sterlin Harjo says 'Reservation Dogs' gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 20, "text": "That's something you didn't have when you were growing up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...On social media of them dressed as the Reservation Dogs."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Sterlin Harjo says 'Reservation Dogs' gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 21, "text": "Sterlin Harjo, it's really just been great to talk with you. Thank you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. I didn't have that, you know? And it might have made some sort of difference if I had. I didn't have that, you know, but I did - what I did have was the best storytellers in the world sitting i"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-18", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Sterlin Harjo says 'Reservation Dogs' gives audiences permission to laugh", "question_index": 22, "text": "...For this interview. Thank you for the series. I really love it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. Thank you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-22", "guest": "Susan Glasser", "title": "What do Elon Musk and other billionaires want in return for backing Trump?", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. One of the most active and ardent supporters of Donald Trump's campaign is the world's richest man, Elon Musk. Musk and about 13 other billionaires have become the financial core of the Trump campaign. So what do these ultra-rich individuals hope to get in return, and what have they already gotten from Trump? My guest, Susan Glasser, investigates these questions in her new article, \"Purchasing Power,\" or \"How Republican Billionaires Learned To Love Trump Again.\" It's published in The New Yorker, where Glasser is a staff writer based in Washington. Glasser writes Trump's time in the White House provided ample evidence that some billionaires could have extraordinary sway in a second Trump administration. Glasser writes a weekly column on life in Washington and is one of the hosts, along with Evan Osnos and Jane Mayer, of the New Yorker podcast \"The Political Scene.\" Glasser cowrote the book \"The Divider\" about Trump and his presidency. Her coauthor is her husband, Peter Baker, who covers the White House for The New York Times. Our interview was recorded yesterday. Susan Glasser, welcome to FRESH AIR. I learned so much from your piece. But I want to start by asking, so Kamala Harris has 21 billionaires supporting her campaign. Trump has 14 billionaires. Harris has had the biggest fundraising quarter ever - $1 billion. So why are you writing about Trump and not Harris?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-22", "guest": "Susan Glasser", "title": "What do Elon Musk and other billionaires want in return for backing Trump?", "question_index": 1, "text": "So to give an example of what people are giving to Trump's campaign, Miriam Adelson, the widow of the late casino magnate Sheldon Adelson, has already given $100 million to the Trump campaign.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a great question. Thank you so much, Terry. It's great to be with you. The thing that I learned coming back to the money and politics beat after, you know, many years of writing about other thi"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-22", "guest": "Susan Glasser", "title": "What do Elon Musk and other billionaires want in return for backing Trump?", "question_index": 2, "text": "OK. Thanks for the clarification on that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We should say to super PACs supporting Trump's campaign."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-22", "guest": "Susan Glasser", "title": "What do Elon Musk and other billionaires want in return for backing Trump?", "question_index": 3, "text": "Thanks largely to the Supreme Court Citizens United decision. What does it say that you're not writing this piece about lobbies or corporations or political parties? It's about individual billionaires donating to super PACs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because that's one of the tricks - right? - is that, you know, with this crazy legal regime that we have, they've gotten rid of the effective limits, even though the legal limits still exist. So what "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-22", "guest": "Susan Glasser", "title": "What do Elon Musk and other billionaires want in return for backing Trump?", "question_index": 4, "text": "So your article starts last February at a lavish Trump administration fundraising event at the mansion of Nelson Peltz, a billionaire investor. His mansion is near Mar-a-Lago. Two dozen of the wealthiest Republicans were there. Now, after January 6, Peltz said that Trump would always be remembered for that disgrace. He said, as an American, I'm embarrassed. During this year's Republican primaries, he gave a lot of money to Tim Scott. Then after Scott dropped out, he supported Trump and said, he's a terrible human being. But our country's in a bad place, and we can't afford Joe Biden. He told his guests at this lavish fundraising dinner, we've all got to throw our support behind Trump. Why does he think Biden was so horrible that he needed to vote out Biden and support Trump and get other billionaires to support Trump?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm so glad you honed in on that because that's the big structural change for me as a longtime observer of Washington and power. What's fascinating is that the game of money and politics, especially a"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-22", "guest": "Susan Glasser", "title": "What do Elon Musk and other billionaires want in return for backing Trump?", "question_index": 5, "text": "So some of the people at this dinner had already gotten access to Trump during his presidency, including Peltz himself. And Peltz helped provoke Trump's attacks on the U.S. Postal Service. Can you explain how that happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think this is just such an incredibly fascinating moment. This dinner takes place on Friday, February 16. And the only difference is Nelson Peltz and a number of the people there - they've pub"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-22", "guest": "Susan Glasser", "title": "What do Elon Musk and other billionaires want in return for backing Trump?", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yeah, because he was saying that Amazon was getting preferential rates and that was helping to bankrupt the Postal Service.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was one of the really important themes to me as I was trying to look into this kind of highly transactional relationship between Trump and the billionaires, is to point out and to go back and loo"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-22", "guest": "Susan Glasser", "title": "What do Elon Musk and other billionaires want in return for backing Trump?", "question_index": 7, "text": "What did Peltz stand to gain by saying that there should be an antitrust charge against Amazon?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly, which, you know, we should point out there's no evidence of that, but Trump embraced this idea and then even later publicly tweeted about it repeatedly. We all remember how that played out. T"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-22", "guest": "Susan Glasser", "title": "What do Elon Musk and other billionaires want in return for backing Trump?", "question_index": 8, "text": "To Procter & Gamble. Yeah. Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Susan Glasser. Her article \"Purchasing Power,\" or \"How Billionaires Learned To Love Trump Again,\" is published in The New Yorker, where Glasser is a staff writer. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Isn't that a fascinating question? Actually, Trump's own White House staff were kind of perplexed by this. Why is this guy here? They tried to look into it, and the best that they could figure out was"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-22", "guest": "Susan Glasser", "title": "What do Elon Musk and other billionaires want in return for backing Trump?", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Susan Glasser. We're talking about her new article \"Purchasing Power,\" or \"How Billionaires Learned To Love Trump Again.\" It's about the billionaires supporting Trump, what they hope to get in return if he's reelected and what some of them have already gotten. It's published in The New Yorker, where Glasser is a staff writer. OK, so let's talk about another guest at this lavish dinner for billionaire would-be donors to the Trump campaign, Elon Musk, the world's richest man - so rich that over the weekend, he announced this kind of sweepstakes where one registered voter a day would get $1 million from Elon Musk. Let's hear the clip of him explaining this. But before we do, he's talking about people who are registered and sign a petition. What is the petition he's asking them to sign?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Isn't that a fascinating question? Actually, Trump's own White House staff were kind of perplexed by this. Why is this guy here? They tried to look into it, and the best that they could figure out was"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-22", "guest": "Susan Glasser", "title": "What do Elon Musk and other billionaires want in return for backing Trump?", "question_index": 10, "text": "Right. OK, so let's hear Musk.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a petition from his political action committee that he has started to support Trump in this election, the America PAC. And what it is, is it's saying that you support the Constitution, the First "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-22", "guest": "Susan Glasser", "title": "What do Elon Musk and other billionaires want in return for backing Trump?", "question_index": 11, "text": "So let's talk about how Elon Musk figures into a possible future Trump administration. It's been announced by Trump that if he wins, he would appoint Musk to head a new commission whose job it would be to cut costs in every aspect of government. So you have the story of how Musk got to that place of being the potential czar of cost cutting. Can you tell that story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So every day between now and the election, we'll be awarding $1 million starting tonight."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-22", "guest": "Susan Glasser", "title": "What do Elon Musk and other billionaires want in return for backing Trump?", "question_index": 12, "text": "So if Trump wins, and Trump appoints Musk to head what would officially be called the Government Efficiency Commission, what possible conflicts of interest would that pose for Musk? And what does he stand to gain from such a position?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's so remarkable, Terry, because here we have the world's richest man. Not only is he just a wealthy mega-billionaire, but his business, especially his ventures SpaceX and Tesla, have been hig"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-22", "guest": "Susan Glasser", "title": "What do Elon Musk and other billionaires want in return for backing Trump?", "question_index": 13, "text": "For things like Tesla and SpaceX?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it seems to me it's a remarkable inherent conflict of interest. This is a man who currently has billions of dollars in federal government contracts and to set him up as a sort of a czar..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-22", "guest": "Susan Glasser", "title": "What do Elon Musk and other billionaires want in return for backing Trump?", "question_index": 14, "text": "And the satellite system?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct. His venture SpaceX..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-22", "guest": "Susan Glasser", "title": "What do Elon Musk and other billionaires want in return for backing Trump?", "question_index": 15, "text": "Would you say that Musk's behavior has become more erratic, endorsing conspiracy theories on X, which he owns, and jumping up and down when Trump introduced him at a recent campaign rally, saying if Trump doesn't win, this will be the last election?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Is - and the Starlink satellite system makes him one of the Pentagon's largest contractors. So imagine setting up one contractor out of all the contractors and giving him power to make sweeping rec"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-22", "guest": "Susan Glasser", "title": "What do Elon Musk and other billionaires want in return for backing Trump?", "question_index": 16, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Susan Glasser, a staff writer for The New Yorker. Her latest article is about the billionaires endorsing Trump and what they hope to get in return or what they've already gotten from Trump. Her article has two titles in the New Yorker, depending on where you're reading it. In the magazine, it's called \"Purchasing Power,\" and on the website, it's called \"How Billionaires Learned To Love Trump Again.\" We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely, Terry. I mean, I think it's just extraordinary the extent to which this public spectacle of the world's richest man becoming also the would-be president's most visible public supporter, th"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-22", "guest": "Susan Glasser", "title": "What do Elon Musk and other billionaires want in return for backing Trump?", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Susan Glasser. We're talking about her new article in The New Yorker about the billionaires who have been backing the Trump campaign through super PACs. It's about how much money they've given, what they hope to gain and what some of them already got during the Trump administration. Her article has two titles in The New Yorker, depending on where you're reading it. In the magazine, it's called \"Purchasing Power,\" and on the website, it's called \"How Billionaires Learned To Love Trump Again.\" One of Trump's big fundraising days was right after he was convicted of 34 criminal counts related to hush money payments to Stormy Daniels. Why did that inspire billionaires to spend more money supporting Trump as opposed to being leery of investing in someone who was just convicted on 34 criminal counts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely, Terry. I mean, I think it's just extraordinary the extent to which this public spectacle of the world's richest man becoming also the would-be president's most visible public supporter, th"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-22", "guest": "Susan Glasser", "title": "What do Elon Musk and other billionaires want in return for backing Trump?", "question_index": 18, "text": "One of the people there was Stephen Schwarzman, who is the head of Blackstone. He's the CEO. And that's an investment company?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's another one of those enduring questions of 2024. Donald Trump, it seems to me, was very, very successful at selling the idea, at least to, you know, Republican motivated donors and his part of "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-22", "guest": "Susan Glasser", "title": "What do Elon Musk and other billionaires want in return for backing Trump?", "question_index": 19, "text": "So Schwarzman had access to Trump during the Trump presidency. Trump asked him to help negotiate NAFTA, the North American Free Trade Agreement, and Schwarzman was also Trump's intermediary with the Chinese leader Xi Jinping. Schwarzman made eight trips to China on behalf of the administration, reporting back to Trump about his efforts to, quote, \"assure senior Chinese officials that Trump wasn't looking for a trade war.\" So why did Trump ask Schwarzman to take that role, and what did Schwarzman have to gain by taking it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's the world's largest private equity firm. And it was a huge coup for Donald Trump that Schwarzman, just a few days before the verdict, had agreed to support Trump again. Schwarzman was one of, y"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-22", "guest": "Susan Glasser", "title": "What do Elon Musk and other billionaires want in return for backing Trump?", "question_index": 20, "text": "We mentioned that there are even more billionaires supporting Kamala Harris than are supporting Trump. Do you think that they are expecting a transactional relationship like the transactional relationships you've outlined in your piece about Trump's billionaire supporters?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, at the time, none of this was disclosed, the idea that one of the world's biggest investment figures was also privately playing a role on behalf of the U.S. government that turned out to be,"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-22", "guest": "Susan Glasser", "title": "What do Elon Musk and other billionaires want in return for backing Trump?", "question_index": 21, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Susan Glasser. Her article \"Purchasing Power,\" or \"How Billionaires Learned To Love Trump Again,\" is published in the New Yorker, where Glasser is a staff writer. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean, there is no evidence to suggest anything on the scale and scope of Trump and his dealings with the billionaires. You know, it would be a huge scandal if any one of these things that I've"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-22", "guest": "Susan Glasser", "title": "What do Elon Musk and other billionaires want in return for backing Trump?", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Susan Glasser. We're talking about her new article \"Purchasing Power,\" or \"How Billionaires Learned To Love Trump Again.\" It's about the billionaires supporting Trump, what they hope to get in return if he's reelected and what some of them have already gotten. It's published in The New Yorker, where Glasser is a staff writer. OK. Another example of Trump's flexibility and sometimes seemingly suiting the desires of his major donors has to do with crypto. He had been calling cryptocurrency potentially a disaster waiting to happen and that Bitcoin seemed like a scam. But he started promoting crypto in 2024. How is that change connected possibly to his financial donors?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean, there is no evidence to suggest anything on the scale and scope of Trump and his dealings with the billionaires. You know, it would be a huge scandal if any one of these things that I've"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-22", "guest": "Susan Glasser", "title": "What do Elon Musk and other billionaires want in return for backing Trump?", "question_index": 23, "text": "So if Trump wins and Lutnick becomes the head of Trump's transition team, Lutnick has already promised that people who are appointed to the administration would be subject to a strict loyalty test to avoid the kinds of senior aides who tried to constrain him during his first term, people who weren't, quote, \"pure\" to Trump's vision. So what does that say to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So for years, he's been a very unambiguous critic of cryptocurrency and specifically of Bitcoin. He said publicly he thought it looked like a scam. He was very dubious of it, and he has done a complet"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-22", "guest": "Susan Glasser", "title": "What do Elon Musk and other billionaires want in return for backing Trump?", "question_index": 24, "text": "In September, Trump announced that he and his sons Eric and Don Jr. were getting into the crypto business. There were new companies called World Liberty Financial. What stage is that at? Do you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, Terry, I was really struck by that interview. Here is a guy who has no government experience his entire career has been at this Wall Street brokerage firm, Cantor Fitzgerald. In recent years"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-22", "guest": "Susan Glasser", "title": "What do Elon Musk and other billionaires want in return for backing Trump?", "question_index": 25, "text": "And saying that if he wins, that the U.S. will become the crypto capital of the planet.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, this is so amazing, right? So he goes from saying it's a scam to actually participating in crypto himself."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-22", "guest": "Susan Glasser", "title": "What do Elon Musk and other billionaires want in return for backing Trump?", "question_index": 26, "text": "Something I don't understand about the billionaires who are backing his campaign - several things, really. One is that he often turns against the people he's hired in his administration. You know, he's turned against so many people who had been his supporters. What makes the billionaires think that he won't necessarily turn against them or retract his promises?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. And so he does this rollout on X, now that it's become the favored platform for everything involving the Trumps, for this business venture called World Liberty Financial. And Trump goes on an"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-22", "guest": "Susan Glasser", "title": "What do Elon Musk and other billionaires want in return for backing Trump?", "question_index": 27, "text": "And also, are they not concerned that his behavior seems to be very erratic now, that he's sometimes incoherent, that he spends time - 30 minutes or more - dancing at one of his rallies after two people collapsed? That was his response to that, like, let's hear some music. And, you know, over the weekend, he talked about Arnold Palmer's man parts and how enhanced they seemed, like, how impressive they were in the locker room. That's strange. Why aren't they concerned about that? They're investing tens of millions of dollars in helping him to get reelected.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a great question."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-22", "guest": "Susan Glasser", "title": "What do Elon Musk and other billionaires want in return for backing Trump?", "question_index": 28, "text": "You had written a book about Trump's presidency, but you found a lot of surprising things in your new article about the billionaires who are backing him and what they hope to get in return. What surprised you most about what you learned in the course of your reporting for this article?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that, you know, these are smart, accomplished people. I think they have a pretty clear read of who Trump is, which is why for many of them, it strikes me as a fairly cynical transaction that t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-22", "guest": "Susan Glasser", "title": "What do Elon Musk and other billionaires want in return for backing Trump?", "question_index": 29, "text": "Susan Glasser, thank you so much for your reporting and for coming on our show. It's been really interesting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I was actually surprised at how much the dollar amounts have gone up even in the space of the Trump era. And I spoke with a figure people may remember from the Trump era, Gordon Sondland, who was T"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-22", "guest": "Susan Glasser", "title": "What do Elon Musk and other billionaires want in return for backing Trump?", "question_index": 30, "text": "Susan Glasser is a staff writer at The New Yorker. Her new article is titled \"Purchasing Power.\" On The New Yorker's website, it's titled \"How Billionaires Learned To Love Trump Again.\" After a short break, our book critic Maureen Corrigan recommends a new comic novel she says may give you some stress-relieving laughs. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, thank you so much for having me. It's wonderful to be back with you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 0, "text": "Randy Newman, welcome back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli. With the release of this new biography of Randy Newman, we thought it would be good to hear from the man himself. In 1998, Terry Gross spoke with him. At the ti"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 1, "text": "I want to focus on that third CD, the CD of mostly demos and previously unreleased material. The first song on that CD is called \"Golden Gridiron Boy,\" and this is a song about not getting the girls and not being a football hero. How did you write this song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's good to be here."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 2, "text": "Speaking of strange, this record was produced by Pat Boone. How did you get...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. It sounds like I wrote it with my foot now, but I was 18. Actually, I got it wrong. It should have been \"Gridiron Golden Boy.\" I mean, that's the way I wrote it, but I must have got flus"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 3, "text": "...Hooked up with Pat Boone?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 4, "text": "Now, Glen Campbell was featured on guitar on this track.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My father was a doctor, and Pat Boone was a patient. And he heard me sing and was one of the first people, actually, to like the way I sung, you know, so I'm forever grateful to him."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 5, "text": "Well, let's hear \"Golden Gridiron Boy.\" Do you want to say anything else about it before we spin it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, he did a lot of demos. He's probably on a lot of these other things, too. He was doing demos then. When I started, the first people I worked with were Leon Russell and David Gates, who lat"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 6, "text": "OK. This is Randy Newman, recorded in 1962.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I'll say what I said in the liner notes of the box set - love means never having to say you're sorry."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 7, "text": "Randy Newman, did you expect that to be a hit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yay. Yay, team. Go, go, go."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 8, "text": "And you were right", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I didn't. I didn't. I don't think I did, and I was not..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I didn't. I didn't. I don't think I did, and I was not..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 10, "text": "I can only play in the band.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "sad song when I really listen to it, you know? The guy - I'm too small to make the team? Wow."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 11, "text": "Now...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that's quite an admission, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't exactly have my finger on the pulse of the..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 13, "text": "So you weren't expecting to be a singer, but you were hoping to be a songwriter. You were a songwriter.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...American public's desire for heroes, you know?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 14, "text": "You were writing for a publishing company.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 15, "text": "What was your image of a songwriter back then? This is a kind of transitional period in the early '60s. You know, you're past Tin Pan Alley. You're kind of in the end of the Leiber and Stoller era and right at the kind of dawn of the big - of the period where bands were going to be writing their own songs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That I was."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 16, "text": "I want to get to another track. This is a song called \"Love Is Blind,\" which is - you know, just as the first song that we heard, \"Golden Gridiron Boy,\" is very out of character for you, this kind of cheerful - well, not cheerful, but...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The image that I cherish and love is the image - I don't know whether you would remember - was, like, I remember Donald O'Connor and Sid Fields (ph). I think they used to play this song right here, an"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 17, "text": "Not cheerful....", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, this is a..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 18, "text": "...But an upbeat football song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This isn't cheerful, but..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 19, "text": "Yeah, exactly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a generic lyric."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 20, "text": "Right. You say in the notes that you wrote it when you were 18.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, that's what it is."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 21, "text": "So you were 18 and already writing that love is bitter, love is hopeless, love is blind. It leads me to think that you already had a sense of yourself as writing more dark and cynical songs than your average songwriter.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 22, "text": "Well, let's hear the song \"Love Is Blind,\" written in about 1962. The recording we'll hear is 1968. And this is from Randy Newman's box set \"Guilty: 30 Years Of Randy Newman.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 23, "text": "\"Love Is Blind,\" one of the demos on Randy Newman's box set \"Guilty.\" What were you saying there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 24, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was laughing at the ending. You know, I was just sort of aimless wandering. You know, in the motion picture movie business, we call it grazing."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well, that was a demo. Did you ever record it other than that for yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I was waiting to end it. I know where I should've gone, but I didn't go there. It made me laugh."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 26, "text": "Well, I like it a lot. Why don't you like it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I never thought enough of it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 27, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I do, too."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 28, "text": "Well, sure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, veil of tears, you know, things like that."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 29, "text": "And you were telling us before that when you started writing songs, you didn't think of yourself as a singer. When did you actually start performing your own songs and thinking of yourself as a performer?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University. We're listening to Terry's 1998 interview with singer, songwriter and composer Randy Newman, whose ironic p"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 30, "text": "I think that your becoming a singer opened up your songs in terms of subject matter, too. I mean, how many other singers would be willing to sing songs in the persona of a racist, or of someone who's very insecure and unsure of themselves, in the way that a lot of the characters in your songs are?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it would be two separate answers, probably. I mean, I think the first time I was on stage was in 1970. And I was - I remember the first time I played, it was in some place in San Anselmo, the Li"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 31, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "True. Actually, you know, there's more of it lately than there ever has been. You know, a lot of these great girl writers and - are willing to admit to insecurities, and bad behavior, and - with knowl"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 32, "text": "Well, I want to get to another song from the third CD of the boxset. And again, this is the CD with the previously unreleased sessions and the demos. And a couple of the tracks from the CD are from a live album that was released, though I think it might not have been terrifically distributed. And the song I want to play is called \"Maybe I'm Doing It Wrong.\" And it's a waltz about sex not quite measuring up to what it's supposed to be.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But if it's a conscious, artistic thing - you know, some of the rap, too, is that way - it's very unusual. You're right. It's an unusual - to take on a persona that's less than heroic or admirable. An"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 33, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Or the individual not measuring..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 34, "text": "Well, both", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah, you're right. You're right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 35, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah, you're right. You're right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 36, "text": "Insecure about his performance and about...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 37, "text": "...The response that he's getting...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 38, "text": "...In himself. So many pop songs are supposed to be sung in the voice of the seducer who's bragging about how good a lover he is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 39, "text": "Did you intend this to subvert that kind of song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 40, "text": "Well, let's hear it. This is \"Maybe I'm Doing It Wrong.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And it's really a great idea, because it's a widespread thing. You know, people don't necessarily talk about it. I mean, you have no idea from knowing a person - my experiences, at least - what "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 41, "text": "Why did you write that song as a waltz?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Maybe I'm doing it wrong. Maybe I'm doing it wrong. It just don't move me the way that it should. Maybe I'm doing it wrong. There ain't no book you can read. There ain't nobody to tell you. "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 42, "text": "Oh, well, thanks for the invitation. I have a reason I'd like to give you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. It just came out that way. Almost every song I've written has had words and music sort of come at the same time, but - no. Usually, the music comes a little first. So I probably was just"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 43, "text": "This song is about a kind of frustration in sexuality. But the waltz has such a nice lilt, such an easy lilt, that it's a nice contrast.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 44, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Humming)."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 45, "text": "Now, could you ever imagine writing or singing a song in the opposite persona, the song in the voice of the great seducer, the great lover, baby, I'm so good?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It does. You know, it - (clicking fingers) mm, mm, bum, bum. Yeah, it's sort of in one. Yeah, it could be. It might be also - I loved a record called \"If You Gotta Make A Fool Of Somebody.\" I don't kn"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 46, "text": "I'm glad you mentioned \"You Can Leave Your Hat On.\" That song was used in - what's the movie called? I'm just blanking out on the title. \"Full Monty.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Only as a joke. I mean, why talk, if that's the case? Only as a joke I've probably done that. I mean, almost certainly I've done it in some of my songs, you know, bragging. I can't think of one now, b"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 47, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Full Monty.\""}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 48, "text": "\"Full Monty\" was such a big art house hit. Did that revive the song and bring you in surprising royalties?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And \"9 1/2 Weeks.\""}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 49, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The other thing was even a bigger hit."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 50, "text": "So you never know which old songs are going to come back at you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"9 1/2 Weeks\" was such a big hit in Europe that it was a hit in - almost worldwide. So I guess that it was revived both times. Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 51, "text": "So the song sounded different when he did it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And I did a TV show with Joe Cocker, and I did the thing in - let's see, what did I do it in? Key of E. And I said, what key you do it in. I figured maybe do it higher. I figured G, maybe a mino"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 52, "text": "Right. Yours was more of the heavy breather", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. I mean, being a sixth higher made it - you know, took you way up there, and you really belted it out, whereas mine was more furtive, furtivo."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 53, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. I mean, being a sixth higher made it - you know, took you way up there, and you really belted it out, whereas mine was more furtive, furtivo."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 54, "text": "Well, since you've mentioned \"You Can Leave Your Hat On,\" you have your own recording of that on the new four-CD box set. So why don't we listen to that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, but in a - sort of harmless, you know? I mean, I think some women's groups were offended, but I meant the guy to be kind of laughed at. Though as I get older, I take it more seriously, you know?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 55, "text": "You come from a film music extended family. Your uncles were Lionel and Alfred Newman...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1998 interview with Randy Newman, who spoke to her after releasing a four-CD box set of his music. Another overview of his long and impressive career, a ne"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 56, "text": "And Alfred Newman was head of music for 20th Century Fox. Film scores include \"Grapes Of Wrath,\" \"Hunchback Of Notre Dame,\" \"Captain From Castile,\" \"All About Eve,\" \"Wuthering Heights.\" Did having them in the family prevent you from being willing to sell your soul in order to make it in Hollywood?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And Emil Newman, the forgotten Newman."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 57, "text": "Well, I thought we could hear some of your new orchestral movie music. And this is not from the box set. This is from the CD of \"A Bugs Life.\" And you did the score for the movie. And I thought we'd play \"Victory.\" This is a really interesting piece. I don't know if you remember them by name or not. Is that a no?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I never had a romantic view of Hollywood. And I never had - because, you know, the actors weren't around by the time they were working on the picture. And I would see that, you know, I'd hear them tal"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 58, "text": "Well, why don't I play some of this, and then you could tell us a little bit about writing it and about how it's used in the actual movie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I don't remember them."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 59, "text": "Music Randy Newman composed for the film \"A Bug's Life.\" Some of that really harkens back to classic adventure film scores.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 60, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, but it's 20th century, you know? I might not have known I could do that had it not called for it. You know, it's a grasshopper chasing a - flying through the air chasing an ant. But to me, it's,"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 61, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But those musicians had that music. Maybe we did it in an hour and a half..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 62, "text": "It must be pretty exciting for you to hear played what you've only heard in your head before.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...That one thing. And that is really difficult for everybody."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 63, "text": "It sounds really good to me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-25", "guest": "Randy Newman", "title": "Singer/songwriter Randy Newman looks back on his decades-long music career", "question_index": 64, "text": "Randy Newman, thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Me, too."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-31", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "This agency is trying to protect elections from adversaries like Russia and Iran", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. In these final days before Election Day, how much do we know about foreign efforts to influence voters and the outcome of the election? How many bots and deepfakes and fake news stories planted by Russia, Iran or other countries have been seen by voters who believed they were authentic? This is the first presidential campaign since the creation of a new group within the intelligence community that's responsible for discovering and defeating foreign efforts to influence voters and to warn voters and lessen the effectiveness of foreign influence. It's called the Foreign Malign Influence Center, and it was created in 2022. My guest, David Kirkpatrick, a staff writer at The New Yorker, has written a long article about the center and the role of the larger intelligence community and the Justice Department in determining what voters get to know and when they get to know it. The article is also about what we've learned so far about foreign influence in this presidential campaign and lessons learned from the past. The article is titled \"The U.S. Spies Who Sound The Alarm About Election Interference.\" David Kirkpatrick, welcome back to FRESH AIR. You know, after the 2016 election, there was a special counsel appointed, Robert Mueller, to investigate Russian attempts to influence voters and have an impact on the results of the elections. But the Russians didn't say, OK, you got me; we're done", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-31", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "This agency is trying to protect elections from adversaries like Russia and Iran", "question_index": 1, "text": ". But this time around, like, as far as I can tell, not that much attention is being paid to foreign influence. Am I wrong about that? And if there's not as much attention, why is that?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-31", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "This agency is trying to protect elections from adversaries like Russia and Iran", "question_index": 2, "text": "After your article was published, you found out about some new intelligence about what Russia has been up to. Would you tell us about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, yes and no. I think quite a bit of attention is being paid. It gets covered by The New York Times, you know, every little while, every few weeks. And some of the tech companies are pro"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-31", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "This agency is trying to protect elections from adversaries like Russia and Iran", "question_index": 3, "text": "Did you learn new things about the election itself and interfering with voting itself or with the counting of the ballots?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So the people at the Foreign Malign Influence Center - part of the Office of the Director of National Intelligence - put out periodic public updates or briefings. And they said two things that I"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-31", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "This agency is trying to protect elections from adversaries like Russia and Iran", "question_index": 4, "text": "So what has Iran done that is most alarming that you are aware of?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So again and again, the intelligence agencies have said they don't see any signs that any foreign government is going to try to or could interfere with the counting of the ballots. They have, however,"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-31", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "This agency is trying to protect elections from adversaries like Russia and Iran", "question_index": 5, "text": "Now, what about China? You write that they're not active in the presidential election. They're not actively trying to interfere in that, but they are active in down ballot races. What's behind that choice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Iran, taking its cue from Russia in 2016, has tried to hack into the campaigns. And they somewhat successfully hacked into Trump's orbit, right? So they successfully hacked into the email accoun"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-31", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "This agency is trying to protect elections from adversaries like Russia and Iran", "question_index": 6, "text": "Well, let's take a break here and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is David Kirkpatrick, a staff writer at The New Yorker. We're talking about his article titled \"The U.S. Spies Who Sound The Alarm About Election Interference.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the information I'm presenting here comes from statements put out by the intelligence agencies. And what they've said is that China believes that both parties are anti-China. What's more, China bel"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-31", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "This agency is trying to protect elections from adversaries like Russia and Iran", "question_index": 7, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with David Kirkpatrick that we recorded yesterday. He's a staff writer at The New Yorker. We're talking about his article, \"The U.S. Spies Who Sound The Alarm About Election Interference.\" And the article is about Russia, Iranian and other countries' attempts to influence American voters and to influence the outcome of the election. And we're talking about the new U.S. center that's part of the Office of the Director of National Intelligence called the Foreign Malign Influence Center, which was created two years ago. And Kirpatrick describes that as the command hub of the battle to protect the presidential election from manipulation by foreign powers. Do you see anything that strikes you as important innovations since 2016, when we learned so much about Russian interference in the presidential election?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the information I'm presenting here comes from statements put out by the intelligence agencies. And what they've said is that China believes that both parties are anti-China. What's more, China bel"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-31", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "This agency is trying to protect elections from adversaries like Russia and Iran", "question_index": 8, "text": "One of the things that's changed with this election is that Elon Musk owns X, a huge social media platform, and he is all in with Trump. He's contributed millions and millions and millions through a PAC that he created, a pro-Trump PAC. And he appears at Trump campaign rallies. And he has tweeted or retweeted conspiracy theories and falsehoods pertaining to the election. And then also, Trump has his own social media platform, Truth Social. So how is that or is that changing the ability of foreign adversaries to plant information that is false?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The two big things we've now learned from the intelligence agencies, that basically everybody's getting in on the game, right? If you're an authoritarian out there, you having seen Russia's success in"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-31", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "This agency is trying to protect elections from adversaries like Russia and Iran", "question_index": 9, "text": "David, you know, in terms of when to notify voters about foreign influence in the election, it's a difficult decision. And I think before this new center, the Foreign Malign Influence Center, was created, that, you know, presidents' Justice Department decided what to release and when. And you talk about Obama's dilemma. He knew about Russian interference in the election before we knew about it, but he didn't make it public until after the election. Can you describe the dilemma he faced and what you know of why he made the decision he did?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, from the foreign adversaries' point of view, things are just getting better and better and better. You know, you and I can remember the day when we all depended on a handful of major media outle"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-31", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "This agency is trying to protect elections from adversaries like Russia and Iran", "question_index": 10, "text": "OK, before we talk some more, we need to take a short break here. So let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is New Yorker staff writer David Kirkpatrick, and the article that he wrote that we're talking about is called \"The U.S. Spies Who Sound The Alarm About Election Interference.\" We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "President Obama's decisions in 2016 about the Russian influence operation now look like kind of the original sin behind all of this. You know, what happened was in the summer of 2016, the president wa"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-31", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "This agency is trying to protect elections from adversaries like Russia and Iran", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with David Kirkpatrick, a staff writer for The New Yorker. We're talking about his article about attempts by other countries, including Russia and Iran, to influence American voters and the outcome of the presidential election. This is the first presidential election since the creation of a new group within the intelligence community that's responsible for discovering and defeating foreign efforts to influence voters and to warn voters and lessen the effectiveness of foreign influence. It's called the Foreign Malign Influence Center, and it was created in 2022. The article is also about the role of the larger intelligence community and the Justice Department in determining what voters get to know about foreign influence and when they get to know it. Kirkpatrick sums up what we've learned so far about foreign influence in this presidential election and lessons learned from the past. The article is titled \"The U.S. Spies Who Sound The Alarm About Election Interference.\" You know, so much of your article is focused on the Foreign Malign Influence Center, which is handling the release of information about, you know, foreign interference in the election. And you've been critical of how little specific information they've been releasing. But give us a larger summary of how effective you think they're being in trying to prevent interference and trying to, you know, notify the public about it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "President Obama's decisions in 2016 about the Russian influence operation now look like kind of the original sin behind all of this. You know, what happened was in the summer of 2016, the president wa"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-31", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "This agency is trying to protect elections from adversaries like Russia and Iran", "question_index": 12, "text": "You offer as, like, so far the best-case scenario in dealing with foreign interference - is in France during the Macron presidential campaign and the leaking that was found. Can you describe what you think France did right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, as I say, from my point of view as a journalist, there's no such thing as too much information. And I wish they would release more. At the same time, I am somewhat sympathetic. You know, they ar"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-31", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "This agency is trying to protect elections from adversaries like Russia and Iran", "question_index": 13, "text": "And it didn't work.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. So France had the advantage of coming after the 2016 election in the U.S., so they saw what Russia had done there. They may also have had some help from U.S. intelligence agencies at sussing out "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-31", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "This agency is trying to protect elections from adversaries like Russia and Iran", "question_index": 14, "text": "So I want to talk a little about the Tenet Media case. And, you know, I want you to describe the case. But one of the things that's so interesting about this case is that this is the first election, I think, the first presidential election in which influencers, like social media influencers, have as much power and influence as they do now. And, you know, Russia seems to know how to take advantage of that for its own goals. So can you elaborate on what the Tenet Media scandal was about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it didn't work, right? So that's basically precisely the opposite of what we've got going on. Since 2016, we're in a situation where the out party - at the moment, the Republicans, in 2020, the De"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-31", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "This agency is trying to protect elections from adversaries like Russia and Iran", "question_index": 15, "text": "So we don't know, of course, how much damage those influencers have caused.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So in the Tenet Media scandal, what we learned is the Justice Department filed an indictment against a couple of Russian government officials, people who work for the Russian state media organization."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-31", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "This agency is trying to protect elections from adversaries like Russia and Iran", "question_index": 16, "text": "OK, before we talk some more, we need to take a short break here. So let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is New Yorker staff writer David Kirkpatrick. And the article that he wrote that we're talking about is called \"The U.S. Spies Who Sound The Alarm About Election Interference.\" We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, and the answer might be none, right? Because if you're tuning into one of the Tenet Media personalities, you're probably already a Trump voter, right? So, you know, there's a view that a lot of "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-31", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "This agency is trying to protect elections from adversaries like Russia and Iran", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with David Kirkpatrick that we recorded yesterday. He's a staff writer at the New Yorker. We're talking about his article \"The U.S. Spies Who Sound The Alarm About Election Interference.\" And the article is about Russian, Iranian and other countries' attempts to influence American voters and to influence the outcome of the election. And we're talking about the new U.S. center that's part of the Office of the Director of National Intelligence called the Foreign Malign Influence Center, which was created two years ago, and Kirkpatrick describes that as the command hub of the battle to protect the presidential election from manipulation by foreign powers. I think maybe one of the new innovations in Russian influence campaigns is that Russia has been embedding messages - and you write about this in your article. Russia has been embedding messages in the responses to the original message on social media. So they're not originating it. They just look like, oh, one of the many people who responds, but the response will often also have links to misinformation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, and the answer might be none, right? Because if you're tuning into one of the Tenet Media personalities, you're probably already a Trump voter, right? So, you know, there's a view that a lot of "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-31", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "This agency is trying to protect elections from adversaries like Russia and Iran", "question_index": 18, "text": "Well, the whole idea of spoofing journalism sites is very frightening because you think you're getting the information from a source that you always use and that you trust, and it's really just a Russian spoof of that site.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. One of the things that came out in these Justice Department indictments of certain Russian actors is that they - you know, having learned from the experience of the last two elections, they're "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-31", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "This agency is trying to protect elections from adversaries like Russia and Iran", "question_index": 19, "text": "Is the process of deciding what information from the intelligence community should be made public to voters? Is that a political process at all? Can it even be accused of being politicized?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, you know, those spoof sites are not foolproof, right? You can click around and determine what's a spoof site and what's a real site. You know, and if it doesn't read like the Washington "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-31", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "This agency is trying to protect elections from adversaries like Russia and Iran", "question_index": 20, "text": "But if they are all people who were appointed by the current president, there's room for politicization of the process...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So there's been an effort inside the intelligence agencies to remedy concerns about the appearance of being political, right? That obviously held back the Obama administration. It overshadowed stateme"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-31", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "This agency is trying to protect elections from adversaries like Russia and Iran", "question_index": 21, "text": "...In these partisan times.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the experts group..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-31", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "This agency is trying to protect elections from adversaries like Russia and Iran", "question_index": 22, "text": "What are you watching for in these final days leading up to the election?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In these partisan times. Well, that's - you know, the people inside the intelligence agency would say, look, the crux of the decision-making here is happening at the experts group. And the experts are"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-31", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "This agency is trying to protect elections from adversaries like Russia and Iran", "question_index": 23, "text": "Well, join the rest of the country", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, that's a very good question. I think we're all on the edge of our seats. I know that the people inside the Malign Floor Influence Center, the experts group, is now meeting at least four time"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-31", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "This agency is trying to protect elections from adversaries like Russia and Iran", "question_index": 24, "text": ". David Kirkpatrick, thank you so much for coming back to the show. It's always a pleasure to talk with you and always really interesting. Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, that's a very good question. I think we're all on the edge of our seats. I know that the people inside the Malign Floor Influence Center, the experts group, is now meeting at least four time"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-10-31", "guest": "David Kirkpatrick", "title": "This agency is trying to protect elections from adversaries like Russia and Iran", "question_index": 25, "text": "David Kirkpatrick is a staff writer at The New Yorker. His article that we've been discussing is called \"The U.S. Spies Who Sound The Alarm About Election Interference.\" After we take a short break, guest jazz critic Martin Johnson will have a tribute to jazz composer and tenor saxophonist Benny Golson. He died last month. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's always a pleasure to talk with you as well."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 0, "text": "That's Teri Garr and Dustin Hoffman in a scene from \"Tootsie.\" Teri Garr, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Sandy Lester) I never said I love you. I don't care about I love you. I read \"The Second Sex.\" I read \"The Cinderella Complex.\" I'm responsible for my own orgasm. I don't care. I just don't like t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 1, "text": "Now, you actually wrote some of your lines for this scene. You say in your book that the character was supposed to just get really angry and flip out when she finds out from Dustin Hoffman that he's in love with another woman, but that didn't ring true to you. Why didn't ring true, and how did you change what the character said?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. Nice to be here."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 2, "text": "And so you wrote all the stuff about...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it didn't ring true because what the character was, was supposed to be this independent woman. Of course, she was in the middle of trying to be connected to a man and truly connected to "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 3, "text": "It's funny, and it's very of its time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. And I did see that one line that said, I'm responsible for my own orgasm. And I remember when I read that - that was in Shere Hite's book - I went, what does that mean? I didn't even know what "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 4, "text": "You started off as a dancer. And among your accomplishments, you danced in nine Elvis Presley movies.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, of its time is right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm not sure that's an accomplishment. You know, some of these things are credits, some of them are debits."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 6, "text": "OK. Movies that you danced in include - correct me if I'm wrong here - \"Viva Las Vegas\" - all Elvis films - \"Viva Las Vegas,\" \"Roustabout,\" \"Kissin' Cousins,\" \"Speedway,\" \"Clambake.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that was filler."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, among others. Yeah, at that time, he was doing about at least four movies a year, bad ones in Hollywood. But I had worked in \"West Side Story,\" you know, with the original cast, Jerry Robbins. S"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 8, "text": "Why? It sounds like so much fun to dance in an Elvis film.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...That you could be dancing..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 9, "text": "What's the silliest number you were in in one of the Elvis films?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, it was great fun to dance in Elvis movies."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 10, "text": "Your mom was one of the original Rockettes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, man, they were all pretty bad. I guess, in that \"Clambake\" thing, there was something about digging for clams, and, oh, man, they were all bad. But, you know, it was so funny 'cause I grew up with"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 11, "text": "So, did you get to hang out with Elvis?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, she was, the original Rockettes. They were called the Roxyettes or something when she first went in there. I know the history of the Rockettes, believe me."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, a little bit. I mean, you know, and I'm sure there's been so much written about Elvis. But he was out there, like, you know, a fish out of water when he's in Hollywood making movies. And I also "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well, something else you touched on - you were one of the dancers on \"Shindig!\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Because that's more like what it was. But I was fascinated by the whole thing. I was fascinated by him. He was such a talented, you know, charismatic guy. And I looked at him and I thought, you kno"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 14, "text": "Which was, you know, one of the rock 'n' roll shows. The bands would be there, and there were dancers. You were in a cage, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 15, "text": "You were on, like, a pedestal, yeah. And what were the dances that you had to do? This was probably, what, '67?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, we were on - they were called pods."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 16, "text": "My impression from the book is that you didn't particularly enjoy that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "'67 or '68. Well, they were called things like the watusi and the swim and something like that. We also did mostly - that same guy who choreographed \"Viva Las Vegas,\" choreographed \"Shindig!\" for a wh"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 17, "text": "One of the ways you made the transition from dancing to acting is you got an agent who got you a lot of TV commercials. And that was your portfolio in a way, I guess, for casting agents?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, the minute I got into \"West Side Story\" and I had one line - even though I danced and I really wanted to be a ballerina in ABT and everything, I had this one line. And I got a reaction"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 18, "text": "OK, products you did TV commercials for include Crest, Safeguard soap, Greyhound bus lines, Camay soap, Bold detergent, Sure deodorant, General Foods breakfast squares. So many commercials, you have to look almost orgasmic as you taste the breakfast cereal or as you inhale the perfumed soap. Did you have to have that really kind of fake, like, wow, it's amazing expression on your face for the commercials?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I was very lucky to be able to do all these TV commercials at some point. And I think that was a big learning experience, too, because in a way, you know, selling some product as acting. So I was"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 19, "text": "Oh, yes, it was the diet fluid.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, always. I remember once I did a commercial for Metrecal. Do you remember what Metrecal was?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 20, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The diet fluid that you ate for lunch. So I was doing this commercial, and I was supposed to be in the teacher's lounge with - Penny Marshall was one of the other teachers. And I drank so much Metreca"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 21, "text": "That's great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Then they would pan back to me, and I'd go, mmm, delicious. Well, I want to tell you, it was very difficult to do without laughing, because you'd hear this noise - (imitating spitting) - and then fabu"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 22, "text": "Well, let me ask you about another movie you were in, and that is \"Young Frankenstein\" or Frankenstein.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They kind of do them by the seat of their pants. But then in commercials, everything has to be done legally, correctly. And, boy, I learned a lot about advertising."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 23, "text": "Yes. Directed by Mel Brooks. How did you get to work with him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Frankenstein, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 24, "text": "You were working on \"The Sonny & Cher Show\" at the time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there was rumors going around town that there was a big movie being cast. And there was lots of girls going up for this audition, and I got my agent to get me in on it - you know, 500 girls. Whe"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 25, "text": "Did you learn things about comic timing working with Mel Brooks on \"Young Frankenstein\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I was working on \"The Sonny & Cher Show\" at the time, and there was Renate with the wigs."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 26, "text": "What did he call you, a shiksa goddess?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't think you can learn comic timing. I think I must have innately grown up with - you know, my mother and father from vaudeville and stuff, and lots of jokes around the house. But I had bee"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Shiksa goddess, my long-waisted shiksa goddess. No, and then he called Peter Boyle and I - come here, treif. We were both treif."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 28, "text": "Not kosher.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know what it means, exactly. And then at one point..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 29, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I said, well, Mel, you're so wonderful. I wish I was Jewish. You're Jewish. You are Jewish by injection."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 30, "text": "Here's a scene from \"Young Frankenstein.\" Dr. Frankenstein has just been fooling around with his seductive lab assistant, played by Teri Garr. In this scene, his assistant, Igor, played by Marty Feldman, has escorted the doctor's fiance to the castle. The fiance is played by Madeline Kahn.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know what he meant, but OK."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 31, "text": "Now, the first real movie role you got - like, major movie role - was in \"The Conversation\"...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Young Frankenstein.\" Teri Garr spoke with Terry Gross in 2005. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry Gross and her 2005 interview with Teri Garr, who died "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 32, "text": "...With - you know, directed by Coppola, starring Gene Hackman. Like, does it get better than that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 33, "text": "...For starting a movie career?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It doesn't."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 34, "text": "And it's an interesting scene. You're in bed, and Hackman, who's, you know, your boyfriend, walks in the door. And you want to get to know him more. He's this very closed, unknowable guy. And you keep asking him these questions, and he gets more and more closed the more questions you ask. So it's a pretty interesting scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was absolutely in shock. I told you I was doing commercials at the time. So one of the commercial casting directors was casting his film. And she said, do you want to go up for this part? And I said"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 35, "text": "Why did Coppola ask you to sing \"Red, Red Robin\" in your audition?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Amy Fredericks) I don't know. I just feel it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 36, "text": "This was Hackman's fantasy in the movie?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't know. I mean, I think it had something to do with he wanted to see that character - if she could be, like, ingenuous and naive and just jump in and do something cute and sweet. I mean, l"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 37, "text": "You think it's Coppola's fantasy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Well, it was Francis'...."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 38, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 39, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Definitely."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 40, "text": "So you worked with Coppola not only on \"The Conversation,\" but on \"One From The Heart.\" And you suspect that it was during the filming of \"One From The Heart\" that - when you had an accident, that it kind of started your MS.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University. Let's get back to Terry Gross and her 2005 interview with actress Teri Garr, who died Tuesday at age 79. Sh"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 41, "text": "And the champagne bottle that you dropped, that was in a scene from \"One From The Heart.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I do suspect that, but I could be wrong. But I think - it's one of the reasons I wrote about it in the book, is because I want other people that have MS to think maybe this - something like this"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 42, "text": "This was early in the film.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. It was - I was supposed to be carrying groceries in, and then I dropped it, and it broke on my foot. Right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 43, "text": "Yeah. So what were your early symptoms? When did you start to feel like this is something you needed to pay attention to and take seriously?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 44, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't - there - the symptoms - I always have this ego that I'm fine, and I'm a perfect physical specimen, that anything that did happen to me, I sort of ignored it, Oh, this is normal. Everybo"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 45, "text": "How do you think being a dancer and being very attuned to your body and being taught to just kind of go on because you always have aches and pains as a dancer - how do you think that affected your ability to cope with the symptoms of MS?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So those - but then - I would get those symptoms, and then they would go away so that by the time I got myself to a doctor and said, now, check this out, it would be gone 'cause MS is relapsing and re"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 46, "text": "On the other hand, I could see how being a dancer might have made you more bitter about having MS because your body was such a well-crafted tool.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I think it was absolutely a wonderful thing to have been a dancer, to have that discipline and to - just to be able to roll with the punches and all the jobs that I did. And like I said, my mother"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 47, "text": "Do you still wear the brace?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's a nice thing to say. But I have never been bitter, and I've never had a - I don't really have any negative - I had little things along the way. For example, I went to a doctor who said, n"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 48, "text": "How would you describe your walking now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Got it on right now."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 49, "text": "Now, your recent roles have included \"Ghost World.\" You were the mother of one of the two girls in the movie. And you were the mother of Phoebe in \"Friends.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it's not good. I mean, it's got - I've gotten weaker. It comes and goes, but it's - you know, more than the how am I walking is, it's my fatigue level. You know, I get really tired. For me to walk"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 50, "text": "And so - two mother roles. Are you still acting now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 51, "text": "And does the MS get in the way of your performing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. I just am on \"Law & Order.\" I play a defense attorney named Minerva Grahame-Bishop Good name, huh? And I - that was a great job. I'm a defense lawyer on that show. I've done one. I'm goin"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 52, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. How could it get in the way? I get in my way. I'm a little - I feel like I'm a little bit rusty. But, no, it hasn't. You know, on the \"Law & Order\" show, there's a cinematographer who's quite "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 53, "text": "Can we talk about your parents a little bit?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Teri Garr speaking to Terry Gross in 2005. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry Gross and her 2005 interview with Teri Garr, who died Tuesday at age 79."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 54, "text": "Your mother, as you mentioned, was a Rockette. She was - you say she had wonderful legs. She did - what? - hosiery ads, too...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Please."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 55, "text": "...To show off her legs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She did, yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 56, "text": "And then she also was, like, a wardrobe person for several TV shows?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, she called herself Legs Lind."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 57, "text": "Why didn't she want anyone to know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think a lot of dancers become - go into wardrobe afterwards. I don't know why that happens, but it's true. And, yeah, she became a costumer in LA. And my father died when I was 11, and he was "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 58, "text": "Was it for her sake or your sake?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do not know, to this day. Maybe..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 59, "text": "And what about your idea of show business, watching your parents? Did it seem like a good life or a bad life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that brought the end of that. But learning from it was that you do what you want to do, and you independently go take care of yourself and don't depend on a man. I mean, that was the idea that I g"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 60, "text": "Your father was a comic. Was he, like, a joke-teller at home?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it did seem like a bad life. I mean, it seemed like not a fair life or a fickle business, you know, and I think it's true. I just recently was reading the review of the - Elia Kazan's book, and "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 61, "text": "What was his sickness?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't remember that too much. It's a very interesting thing about writing a book about your life. I seem to find a big, huge gap about, well, who was my father? And, you know, he died when I w"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 62, "text": "Do you think that affected your relationships...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's - I think it's something like that. I don't know."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 63, "text": "...That you didn't know much about your father?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 64, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I really do, and I never thought about it until I wrote this book. I always thought, just like everybody else, well, there's just not enough good men out there. But then I see people with re"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 65, "text": "So you're not part of a couple right now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I go on. Even though I'm much older now, I still think there's hope of finding someone interesting."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 66, "text": "You've played mothers in a couple of recent roles, like I said, including in \"Ghost World\" and the TV series \"Friends.\" Are there people you've been able to pattern those mothers on because it sounds like your mother was very different from the mothers that you've played?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not part of a couple, no, except me and my daughter, which is a good couple."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 67, "text": "Right, suburban mothers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's true. You know, most of the mothers that I play in movies, starting from \"Close Encounters Of The Third Kind\" and everything..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 68, "text": "Teri Garr, thank you very, very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I went and, you know, would look at what my sister-in-law did and copy her."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-01", "guest": "David Letterman", "title": "Remembering actor Teri Garr, of 'Young Frankenstein' and 'Tootsie' fame", "question_index": 69, "text": "No, no, no.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I bet he asked you out all the time. I bet he..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest today is Al Pacino.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Well, I'm going to ask Pacino about his business, by which I mean his art.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Michael Corleone) Enough."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 2, "text": "It did. I know. It's you slamming the table", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It sounded like a shot to me."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It sounded like a shot to me."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 4, "text": "So I'm going to talk to Pacino about his remarkable performance in \"The Godfather\" films and other films. We'll also talk about his life. He's written a new memoir called \"Sonny Boy,\" which is the name his mother used to call him. It spans his life from the days he grew up in the South Bronx, raised by a single mother with little money, to falling in love with the language of the great playwrights Strindberg, Chekhov and Shakespeare, getting his start in avant-garde theater in Greenwich Village, surprising himself by becoming a movie star, nearly dying from COVID and all the ups and downs along the way. In case you need to be reminded, some of his now classic films include \"Dog Day Afternoon,\" \"Serpico\" and \"Scarface.\" Although he starred along with Robert De Niro in \"Godfather II,\" they never had a scene together, but they were together in \"Heat,\" and more recently in Martin Scorsese's film, \"The Irishman.\" Pacino won an Oscar for his performance and \"Scent Of A Woman.\" He won an Emmy for his performance in the HBO adaptation of the play \"Angels In America,\" playing Roy Cohn. He starred in the film adaptation of David Mamet's Pulitzer Prize-winning play \"Glengarry Glen Ross,\" and later starred in a Broadway revival of the show, but in a different role. Al Pacino, welcome to FRESH AIR. So exciting to have you here.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh. Oh, as long as it's not a gun. I've had enough of those."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 5, "text": "I want to get to a lot of your life. I want to start by talking about \"The Godfather.\" So I want to start with a scene from the first \"Godfather\" film. You've begun your transformation into the killer Michael, into the crime family Michael. You know, you start coming home from the military. You don't want any part of the crime family, but then you're kind of pulled in after your father is shot. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. I'm very happy to be here."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 6, "text": "...Here's a scene from \"Godfather I.\" You've begun your transformation into the hardened Michael. Your father is still alive, but Michael is preparing to take over from him. And you have become so hardened, like, you hardly blink in some scenes, including this one. So you're with Moe Greene, a Vegas casino owner kind of modeled on Bugsy Siegel. And the Corleone family has helped back him. Also in the scene is Michael's older brother, but not very bright brother, Fredo, played by John Cazale, and the family lawyer, Tom, played by Robert Duvall. Moe Greene is played by Alex Rocco. You speak first.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 7, "text": "I just love that scene so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Michael) Fredo, you're my older brother, and I love you. But don't ever take sides with anyone against the family again."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 8, "text": "It works.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's interesting on radio, too."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Doesn't it work, though?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just hearing it and not seeing it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It does."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 11, "text": "That's a great idea.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Really does. I was thinking maybe they'll do \"The Godfather\" on radio someday."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 12, "text": "You know, I interviewed Michael Caine years ago and - the great actor Michael Caine. And here was saying...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 13, "text": "...When you're playing a powerful person, you don't wave your hands around 'cause when you have the power, people are looking at your every subtle gesture. They're trying to read you. They're trying to stay in your good graces and stay safe. And so weak people move their hands around. Powerful people don't. When we started talking, you were moving around a lot. So I'm thinking, was it hard for you to be as still as Michael is when he is exerting his power 'cause he knows how to not be still when he needs to, but he can be very still...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 14, "text": "...And very opaque and very threatening at the same time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Yeah, I was wondering.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know. I don't know how I did that."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 16, "text": "You literally, like, don't blink in that scene. I think you blinked once. How do you do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know till this day what possessed me."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 17, "text": "You were nearly fired from the movie after the opening scene. And you write in the book that the opening scene was such a stupid scene for the audition because Michael is so, like, not a part of the family. He doesn't really...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was in the situation, as they say, and I guess it came to me, you know, because things like that happened if you, you know, stay the course, meaning if you are with whoever you are when you're"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 18, "text": "...Know who he is yet. His future is uncharted, and he's naive. So yeah. Go ahead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 19, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Judgment was off on picking that scene, I think, because it's a scene of, you know, quasi-exposition. So..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 20, "text": "He's just describing to his girlfriend, Kay, who later becomes...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...When you're going through it, what are you supposed to do?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 21, "text": "...His wife, like, who's here and who his family is and who they've helped kill and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 22, "text": "So yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Just to set up the story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All these wonderful..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...People auditioned."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Francis Ford Coppola. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I remember them all - all of us, the young actors just doing that scene. And I thought, well, what can they see from that, you know? But somehow I was the lucky one because Francis always wanted me be"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 26, "text": "You thought he was kidding and it was a phony phone call.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He always wanted me to play Michael. That was in his vision. Even though it wasn't in mine, I'll tell you that. I thought he might be making a mistake. I thought..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 27, "text": "So you starred with Robert De Niro in \"Godfather II,\" but you're not in any scenes together because he's of a different generation from before you were born. And - however, you do have scenes together in \"Heat\" and also in \"The Irishman.\" And I want to play a great scene from \"The Irishman.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I did think when he called me and told me that he was given \"The Godfather\" to direct - 'cause I knew him, like, a year ago before that, where I went out to San Francisco to do something with hi"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 28, "text": "OK. So here's a scene with you and De Niro, toward the end of the film. And you've just gotten out of prison. He plays Frank Sheeran, and Frank Sheeran is somebody who got very connected to the mob, and then he became - you played Jimmy Hoffa, the head of the Teamsters Union. He became your bodyguard. So in this scene, you've only recently gotten out of prison. There was a big kind of ceremony in your honor. And then De Niro, as Frank Sheeran, comes up to you and explains that basically that your time's up, that the mob wants you out of the Teamsters, out of the leadership position that you want to return to.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 29, "text": "But you're both talking between the lines. You're not coming right out and saying anything. You're talking between the lines. It's a great scene. You pingpong back and forth. So let's hear it. It starts with De Niro.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 30, "text": "You don't get that De Niro tell you they're going to kill you in this (inaudible).", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Jimmy Hoffa) They do something to me. I do something to them. That's all I know. I don't know anything else to you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 31, "text": "And they do. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 32, "text": "So you and De Niro are both such intense actors. You're of the same generation. So when you're working together, do you have a similar style of either preparing or of - like, does one of you want, like, a thousand takes and another one of you only want one? You know, like, what are your commonalities and your clashes when you're working together?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was so fun."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 33, "text": "And it worked.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I see all just commonalities there. You know, it's like we've been doing this for many years. And even when we did \"Heat\" together, Bob said to me - when it's a scene just between the two guys, if you"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 34, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And because - it worked because we were meeting for the first time in the movie."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Well, let's take a break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Al Pacino. He has a new memoir, and it's called \"Sonny Boy.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's interesting. I was all ready to rehearse, and he said, let's try not rehearsing. Let's just do it that way, see what happens. And I feel he was really right. So we have that kind of freedom with "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 36, "text": "...Get back to my interview with Al Pacino. He's written a new memoir. It's called \"Sonny Boy.\" So you grew up in the South Bronx. You hung out with a pretty tough crowd.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's interesting. I was all ready to rehearse, and he said, let's try not rehearsing. Let's just do it that way, see what happens. And I feel he was really right. So we have that kind of freedom with "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 37, "text": "And you still, like, jumped from rooftop to rooftop.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 38, "text": "You threw trash down...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, we were wild."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 39, "text": "You'd be on the rooftop and throw trash down on Saturday nights...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "More wild that..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 40, "text": "...To young men with their dates.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "On Saturday nights when..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 41, "text": "Where was the fun in doing that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah. We would go there and throw, like, lettuce at them and stuff. And they always wanted to kill us, but they couldn't catch us. We would do it on occasion, on occasion. We didn't do it a lot,"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 42, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "God only knows..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 43, "text": "Chased by who?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Because nobody else was doing it. It was something we were all doing together, like we were in an orchestra. We just would go up there and - like, part of growing up where I was, was being chased. "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 44, "text": "At least three of your closest friends died of drug-related deaths. Were they heroin overdoses?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "By anybody that we screwed around with. And, you know, that's how we did - we didn't only do these things, I'm sorry. They stand out from time to time. But I remember my childhood as running."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 45, "text": "How did you manage to avoid that yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 46, "text": "How old was she when she died? Did she get to see you be successful?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I believe, my mother. My mother just was there, and she just said, no way, you know? Like, there's scenes in the book that reflect that. You know, it was just territory there in the South Brox. "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 47, "text": "Your parents divorced before you were 2.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. My grandfather nor my mother saw me. They both died before I became successful. Yep."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 48, "text": "When you were around 8 months old, you were taken away from your mother.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 49, "text": "Stayed with your grandparents?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I think I was a year and a half. And I stayed with them for eight months."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 50, "text": "And you say at least you were placed with family...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, my father's mother and father."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 51, "text": "And not a foster home.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And thank God for that."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 52, "text": "Why were you taken away from your mother?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 53, "text": "Like what?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would imagine - of course, I'm not very clear on that. I learned that after my mother had died from relatives that came to see me on Broadway, and it was just a revelation. And then, you know, a bul"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 54, "text": "After finding out about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know - like the behavior I had and the way I was in life. And that startled me. I went into therapy for the next 40 years."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 55, "text": "Trauma you didn't even know you had. That's interesting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Trauma. It's just trauma, you know? Trauma, we all have trauma."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 56, "text": "But that doesn't mean it didn't affect you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I didn't."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 57, "text": "So we need to take a short break here, so let me reintroduce you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, of course. No, no. So I know that my grandmother on my father's side raised me to the point where - my grandmother and grandfather - that she had visitation rights in the divorce papers, which I f"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 58, "text": "My guest is Al Pacino, and he's written a new memoir called \"Sonny Boy.\" We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 59, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Al Pacino. He has a new memoir called \"Sonny Boy.\" When we left off, we were talking about growing up in the South Bronx with his grandparents and single mother. There was a point where your mother was crying and kissing you all over, and you were very young, and you weren't understanding what's up. Why is that happening? And then you return home and you see there's an ambulance in front of the building, and it's your mother who they're there for.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 60, "text": "Was that - did she attempt to die by suicide?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 61, "text": "How old were you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 62, "text": "Did it register on you what had happened? Did you comprehend it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was about 6."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 63, "text": "That must have...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I couldn't quite at 6. I knew something was up. And I was, you know, I lived with my grandmother and grandfather and my mother. And I remember all sitting at a table. I think this was after the war. S"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 64, "text": "...Been traumatizing, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But seeing her..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 65, "text": "Yeah. She must have loved movies 'cause she took you to the movies when you were little.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And leaving on - seeing her in the street, somebody said to me as I'm running to see the ambulance, you know, we rarely saw ambulances coming on our block, and I saw - and there she was on a stretc"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 66, "text": "She took you to see - when you were 5, she took you to see \"The Lost Weekend,\" staring Ray...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, she loved everything. My mother was very smart. She was - she read, had played the piano and, I mean, very poor, of course, but she was very intelligent. And my mother decided to go to the theatre"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 67, "text": "...Milland as this, like, raging alcoholic. It's a great film. But, he - you know, he got very self-destructive. And I don't know. You were 5, and then you started acting out those scenes at home...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 68, "text": "...Because you were so into it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I started acting out the scenes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 69, "text": "Do you understand now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I would act all the time. When Mom took me to the movies, I'd come back - 'cause we lived alone, and there was nobody there to play with. So I'd act out all the parts in the films I saw. And I a"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 70, "text": "It's kind of funny to see a 5-year-old playing...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I sort of do."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 71, "text": "...An adult in crisis...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 72, "text": "...Who was totally disillusioned and - yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, adult in crisis."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 73, "text": "Well...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "With real commitment. I was right there."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 74, "text": "You became an actor.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 75, "text": "Yeah. And you fell in with avant-garde theater, which I didn't...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 76, "text": "...Know until reading the book. But even...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 77, "text": "...Before that, you'd fallen in love with Strindberg and Chekov and Shakespeare.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 78, "text": "I'm curious. Like, as a teenager, before you were really deeply involved with theatre - although you did go to the high school of performing arts.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, God, yes. I was..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 79, "text": "So can you recite a few lines that really stuck with you and meant something important to you when you were in your teens from one of those three - Strindberg, Chekov, Shakespeare?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 80, "text": "You're going to be graded.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I - oh, boy, I feel like I'm at an auditioned."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 81, "text": "What was that from?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know what that would be. I - oh, I know, that was some play I did called \"The King And I.\" Whenever I feel afraid, I hold my head erect, whistle a happy tune so no one will suspect I'm afraid."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 82, "text": "Oh, OK. So you sang a few bars of \"Whistle A Happy Tune.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's E. E. Cummings."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 83, "text": "I was surprised to read that you were in musicals. I never...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I was in \"The King And I,\" and so I remember it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 84, "text": "I've never heard you sing until this very moment.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 85, "text": "Oh, I thought you were going to say Anthony Quinn", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was offered a musical. What was it - a big one? What's the big movie they made? \"Zorba The Greek.\" Yes. They did \"Zorba,\" and I was offered it to play Alan Bates' role."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 86, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was Anthony Quinn and Alan Bates. They wanted me to play the Bates role on Broadway, Hal Prince, because he saw me in \"Indian Wants The Bronx.\" So he asked me if I would come in and audition, so I "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 87, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I thought, oh, I have to go through this audition now. So I sang, you know, and forgot all the words. And I remember leaving - and it wasn't a good audition, if you know what I mean. And I remember"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 88, "text": "Well, let's take a break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Al Pacino. He has a new memoir, and it's called Sonny Boy. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was mad. I said, well, I don't know. I'm just not used to it, I guess. But anyway, they gave me the part."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 89, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Al Pacino. He's written a new memoir. It's called \"Sonny Boy.\" You were going to turn down the role in \"Godfather II.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was mad. I said, well, I don't know. I'm just not used to it, I guess. But anyway, they gave me the part."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 90, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the only reason I stayed in \"Godfather I\" is, I mean, you would quit if you were in it..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 91, "text": "But for \"Godfather II\" - I mean, \"Godfather I\" was already a success. But with \"II\"...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...When everybody's over there giggling at what you're doing, you know, and the whispers on the set. I said, I don't want to be here. I said, I don't like being around people who don't want me around."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 92, "text": "Mario Puzo comes up to you with this script that he'd written, and he said, this is crap", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. \"Godfather II,\" yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 93, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. \"Godfather II,\" yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 94, "text": "Wait. So was the script rewritten?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 95, "text": "This is a great script.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, he wrote it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 96, "text": "Oh, Coppola rewrote the script.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know. It was a great script."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 97, "text": "It was hard because of your personal life or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 98, "text": "Valium?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course - everything. I guess where my drinking had gotten to or - all of it. I found myself in a state of mind that was difficult. I took Valium. Remember those days? Oh, you don't. You're too youn"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 99, "text": "I remember those days.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Valium."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 100, "text": "Of course.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Do you remember Valium?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 101, "text": "I didn't take it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 102, "text": "But certainly knew all about it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 103, "text": "I mean, it was everywhere.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 104, "text": "Like, there were jokes about it and dramas about it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 105, "text": "It was, like, one of the first really popular...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 106, "text": "...Antianxiety medications.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 107, "text": "That's - yeah, that is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I took that and drank at the same time, which is a no-no."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 108, "text": "How did you manage to get through the film? You're so good in it. I mean, you're so good in the film. How did you manage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I was a lucky boy."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 109, "text": "He's had to emotionally shut down to do what he...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's probably why. I was so - but thank you for mentioning that. It just went very far. I went very far into it, because I always thought by the end of \"Godfather\" one, it looked like Michael "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 110, "text": "...Felt he needed to do...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 111, "text": "...And become a monster.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 112, "text": "Did that have an impact on you, having to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 113, "text": "...Emotionally shut down for the role?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It had to."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 114, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It had to. It had to. And I've learned since when you play situations and people that are caught up in that web, it's best to be happy every day, sing cheery songs and then go on."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 115, "text": "But not you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's actually true. I've known some actors - very good actors - who just say, nope. Nope. I'm just doing my thing. They could be dancing and singing and then just go right to it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 116, "text": "Well, let's take a break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Al Pacino. He has a new memoir, and it's called \"Sonny Boy.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "At that time - I would do it now. Of course I do it. Yeah. The more difficult the role, the more - you know, the more demanding or whatever, you go the other way in your preparation because you got it"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 117, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Al Pacino. He's written a new memoir. It's called \"Sonny Boy.\" So you had to have surgery on your carotid artery. I guess it was clogged.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "At that time - I would do it now. Of course I do it. Yeah. The more difficult the role, the more - you know, the more demanding or whatever, you go the other way in your preparation because you got it"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 118, "text": "Both of them. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, God, on both of them. Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 119, "text": "And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 120, "text": "Oh. I didn't realize.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had four strokes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 121, "text": "You had one of these TIA mini-strokes while you were driving a car?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was not fun. But at the same time, it was diagnosed as something else. And I thought, I'm having some killer migraines, as it was. But it wasn't. It was something else TIAs. And they're small. They"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 122, "text": "Oh, it's lucky you survived that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I did."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 123, "text": "I want to ask you about another medical event that, you know, almost killed you. This is, like, during the COVID...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ah, lucky. Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 124, "text": "You almost died. You flatlined.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, the COVID thing."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 125, "text": "Oh, protective gear to prevent COVID...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's what I thought I did. I was standing there. I was getting - I had COVID. And I was getting - how do you call it? I was dehydrated, and so they were hydrating me. The next thing I know, I'"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 126, "text": "...From spreading to them. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What? Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 127, "text": "Do you live alone now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "? I just thought, whoa."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 128, "text": "How do you like it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 129, "text": "What you do say in the book is that you thought you had experienced death.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm not crazy about it, but what's the alternative? I live in such a great place and such a good area. And I have friends, and that's good. And I go out to dinners with people. And so I'm fine."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 130, "text": "But what you experienced...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I sure did. I really did."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 131, "text": "...Was like nothingness. It wasn't...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it was like..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 132, "text": "Yeah. You didn't see, like, a bright light. You didn't feel like you were looking down...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm sorry to say that."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 133, "text": "...At yourself from the sky or the ceiling. It was just, like, the absence of anything.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 134, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I saw Marvin Hamlisch playing the piano."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 135, "text": "I get it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm just joking. I mean..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 136, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You get it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 137, "text": "Whether you nearly died or just briefly unconscious...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't see anything. I opened my eyes. I thought, what happened? That's what I thought. And then I saw this. And, you know, that's a new experience. I never had that experience. And then they starte"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 138, "text": "Yeah. That's what I'm interested in.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it did have an effect on me. I mean..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 139, "text": "For some people, the answer is, oh, now I believe in God. For other people, it is, you know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do think - exactly right. I do think about now more about death than I ever did before. And I think about, what is this? And how does one just understand it a little better? But there's various ways"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 140, "text": "Did it make you any more or less afraid of death?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I always believed in God, I mean, whatever that is. I always do. I always have. That's something that is - whatever God is."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 141, "text": "Has it affected how you want to spend whatever time you have left?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I got a little more concerned about it. Let's put it this way. Or I wonder about it. You know, I'm in my 85th year. So that's there. You know, when you talk to people, it's there. It's going t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 142, "text": "I didn't mean, like, oh, this is, like, the end. But I mean, like, sometimes you rethink, like, what do I want out of life at this stage of my life? Do I want to work more? Do I want to work less?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Whatever time I have left is - I don't think that way."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 143, "text": "Thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So who can say?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 144, "text": "And thank you for all your great films, all your great performances and for the book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it's been a pleasure - same here."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 145, "text": "Be well.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much. Thank you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 146, "text": "Al Pacino's new memoir is called \"Sonny Boy.\" Let's close with a famous scene from his film \"Dog Day Afternoon.\" Pacino's character is robbing a bank to pay for his lover's gender affirmation surgery, but everything's gone wrong, and he's holding everyone at the bank hostage. In this scene, he stepped outside, where he's surrounded by police. Police snipers are on the surrounding rooftops, and a police detective, played by Charles Durning, is trying to get him to release the hostages. A crowd of people has gathered outside the bank, watching the whole spectacle.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You, too."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 147, "text": "Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll remember Quincy Jones and listen back to my 2001 interview with him. He died Sunday. He was an arranger, composer and producer for music that spans from the big bands through bebop, pop, movie soundtracks, TV themes and hip-hop. He arranged or produced recordings for Frank Sinatra, Ray Charles and Aretha Franklin and produced Michael Jackson's albums \"Off The Wall,\" \"Bad\" and \"Thriller.\" I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Sonny Wortzik) Attica. Attica. Attica. Attica. Attica. Attica. Attica. Attica. Attica. Attica. Attica."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-04", "guest": "Al Pacino", "title": "Al Pacino says he almost turned down 'The Godfather Part II'", "question_index": 148, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer is Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producers are Molly Seavy-Nesper and Sabrina Siewert. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) 'Cause this is thriller, thriller night. And no one's going to save you from the beast about to strike. You know it's thriller, thriller night. You're fighting for your life inside a killer "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today, we remember Quincy Jones. He died Sunday at the age of 91. In his New York Times obit, music critic Ben Ratliff described Jones as one of the most powerful forces in American popular music for more than a century. Jones started his career as a trumpeter in Lionel Hampton's big band in the early '50s, but he never became a noted instrumentalist. What made him famous and wealthy was his work as an arranger, composer and record producer, work that spans from the big bands through bebop, pop, movie soundtracks, TV themes and hip-hop. He arranged or produced recordings for Sinatra, Ray Charles, Aretha, Dinah Washington, George Benson and Ice-T. And he produced the Michael Jackson albums \"Off The Wall,\" \"Bad\" and the bestselling album of all time, \"Thriller.\" His music has been sampled in many hip-hop recordings, and his 1962 recording \"Soul Bossa Nova\" was used as the theme to the \"Austin Powers\" films. The multimedia company Quincy Jones Entertainment produced the sitcoms \"The Fresh Prince Of Bel Air,\" \"In The House\" and the sketch show \"Mad TV.\" I spoke with him in 2001, after the release of his memoir, \"Q,\" and a four-CD box set by the same name of music featuring him as a trumpeter, arranger, composer or producer. We started with a sampling of tracks from that collection.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 1, "text": "That's the sampling of music from the four-CD box set \"Q\" that was released at the same time as his memoir \"Q.\" That was back in 2001, when I spoke with him. One of the first musicians he became good friends with was Ray Charles. They met when Charles was 16 and Jones was 14. I asked Quincy Jones how they met.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) Ice-T. Let me kick my credentials, a young player bred in South Central LA."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 2, "text": "Oh, really", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was at the Elks Club, Terry, where we used to, after we played two jobs - we'd work from 7 to 10 in the white tennis clubs, where we'd play music of the - popular music of the day, \"To Each"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 3, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was at the Elks Club, Terry, where we used to, after we played two jobs - we'd work from 7 to 10 in the white tennis clubs, where we'd play music of the - popular music of the day, \"To Each"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 4, "text": "You said that you admired Ray Charles' independence. He was 16 years old. He was blind, but he had his own apartment. He got around town himself. He had a girlfriend. I mean, he had a lot of things that you wanted.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We had choreography. We had everything. As kids, we were pretty cocky because we had a great band. We could read music very well, and we did everything. It was a show band, too, so we got most of the "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 5, "text": "Well, I thought I'd play a 1959 recording that you arranged for Ray Charles. And this is from \"The Genius Of Ray Charles\" album, which was recorded in 1959. We're going to hear \"Let The Good Times Roll.\" Would you like to say anything about this track?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So it's amazing to dream and have your dreams executed like that."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 6, "text": "This is Ray Charles, arrangement by Quincy Jones, \"Let The Good Times Roll.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would just like to add that we had half of Count Basie's band on that session and half of Duke Ellington's band on that session. And in those days, that's when I first started to work with Phil Ramo"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 7, "text": "Your first important music job was with the Lionel Hampton big band. You got that job while you were still in high school. How did he hire you when you were still in school?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Hey, everybody. Let's have some fun. You only live but once, and when you're dead, you're done. So let the good times roll. I said let the good times roll. I don't care if you're young or ol"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 8, "text": "Now, you said that you were afraid that, when you were playing with Hampton - that Parker or Thelonious Monk might show up in the audience, and you were worried they'd laugh at what you had to wear in the band. What did you have to wear in the Hampton band?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had written a suite that I've been working on for a long time called \"From The Four Winds.\" And it was almost a descriptive piece. And I didn't understand theory too well then, but I just went ahead"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 9, "text": "Bermuda shorts. Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that incident happened when we were playing at a place on Broadway called - right next door to Birdland, I mean, totally adjacent. And both places were downstairs. And we had to wear Tyrolean ha"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 10, "text": "Why did you have to wear shorts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God. The whole band..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 11, "text": "Well, some of the tenor solos are almost like a rock 'n' roll band, too. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. That's just Hamp's idea of - Hamp was like a rock 'n' roll band, and he was the first rock 'n' roll band 'cause he attacked an audience like a rock 'n' roll band - no prisoners. And he k"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 12, "text": "So did any of your bebop friends end up seeing you in that band that night?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And they'd walk in the theaters. They'd walk - they had thin-soled shoes and walk over the audience's heads with these thin-soled shoes on top of their chairs, you know? It was absolutely incredi"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 13, "text": "So did Parker see you in your Bermuda shorts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that particular night, he had this favorite thing he'd like to do. He'd have everybody - he'd get his drumsticks and start a whole line, almost like a conga line. And the saxophone section would"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 14, "text": "So playing with the Hampton band, did you get an appreciation of the value of, like, show business in music? Or did you come to hate it and want something that threw that out the window kind of like Parker threw show business values, you know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. But on top of that, Parker would come next door. Bird would come next door. He loved to read music, and he was starring next door with, like, the 52nd Street All Stars, the Bebop All Stars. A"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 15, "text": "...Out the window?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 16, "text": "We'll hear more of my 2001 interview with Quincy Jones after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it was ironic because the underlying attitude with all of the bebop musicians is that we have heard Stravinsky now. We've done this, and we want to be pure artists. We don't want to entertain anym"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're remembering Quincy Jones. He died Sunday. Let's get back to the interview we recorded in 2001. When we left off, we were talking about his early career, when he played in Lionel Hampton's big band. Well, you know, one of the things you say about the Lionel Hampton band bus - and this might have something to do with why Gladys Hampton wanted you off the bus - was that there were four different sections of guys on the bus. Why didn't you describe how that broke down?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it was ironic because the underlying attitude with all of the bebop musicians is that we have heard Stravinsky now. We've done this, and we want to be pure artists. We don't want to entertain anym"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 18, "text": "Which section did you sit in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they had up front were the holy rollers, I guess. And then they had the drinkers. You know, then they had the guys that indulged in sweet wheat, in giggle grass. And they had the guys that were "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". We were very young then, and I was 18 when I went with that band. And you'd bounce back between that or trying to figure out how to make that work with Mogen David wine or..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 20, "text": "Well, the first recording that you made was with the Lionel Hampton band. This was in 1952. It's also your first recorded composition and first recorded arrangement. It's called \"Kingfish.\" Why don't you say something about what you think of this musically now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Manischewitz. It was ridiculous."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 21, "text": "OK, so here it is. 1952, Quincy Jones with the Lionel Hampton band, \"Kingfish.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I look at the whole book and my whole life, I guess, as it's like somebody else. I don't know where I had the spirit or the stick-to-itiveness to write something like that then because, you know, No. "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 22, "text": "From the early 1950s, that was Quincy Jones' first recording with the Lionel Hampton orchestra. It's called \"Kingfish.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I look at the whole book and my whole life, I guess, as it's like somebody else. I don't know where I had the spirit or the stick-to-itiveness to write something like that then because, you know, No. "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 23, "text": "Why didn't you solo more often?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, by the way, I think that's the first recorded solo I ever had on record - the first record I was ever involved with, and I think it's one of the only solos I have on record."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 24, "text": "We're listening to my 2001 interview with Quincy Jones. He died Sunday at the age of 91. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "because they were - Clifford Brown was probably one of the greatest trumpet players that ever lived. Unbelievable."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 25, "text": "That's the theme from the TV series \"Sanford And Son,\" composed by Quincy Jones. Coming up, we continue our conversation with Quincy Jones.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. This is Lionel Hampton speaking, and welcome to our bandstand here. And this tune we're playing now is called \"Broadway.\" You better believe it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're remembering composer, arranger and producer Quincy Jones. He died Sunday at the age of 91. His work spanned from the big bands through bebop, pop, movie soundtracks, TV themes and hip-hop. He arranged or produced recordings for Sinatra, Ray Charles, Aretha, Dinah Washington and Ice-T, and he produced the Michael Jackson albums \"Off The Wall,\" \"Bad\" and \"Thriller.\" His music has been sampled in many hip-hop recordings, and his 1962 recording \"Soul Bossa Nova\" was used as the theme for the \"Austin Powers\" films. His multimedia company produced the TV shows \"The Fresh Prince Of Bel Air,\" \"In The House\" and \"Mad TV.\" Now, I've got to move to a 1962 recording. This is the \"Soul Bossa Nova,\" which became the theme for \"Austin Powers,\" the movie...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. This is Lionel Hampton speaking, and welcome to our bandstand here. And this tune we're playing now is called \"Broadway.\" You better believe it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 27, "text": "...Which just goes to show how this epitomizes a certain '60s sound. What was the occasion for writing this originally?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it did."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 28, "text": "So, were you flattered when you found out that Mike Myers wanted to use your \"Soul Bossa Nova\" as the theme for \"Austin Powers\"? Or did you think, oh, now it's going to be camp - now it's going to be seen as camp?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We had just come back from two State Department tours with Dizzy Gillespie. The first was in the Middle East, some place in Pakistan, right there, you know? Abadan in Iran, and Syria, Beirut. And we c"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 29, "text": "Well, let's hear your 1962 recording of \"Soul Bossa Nova,\" which later became the theme for \"Austin Powers.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no, it was camp, but, you know, it doesn't matter, though, because, you know, it's - a tune like that was kind of a campy tune anyway. So I loved it, you know? I was very happy that he found a w"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 30, "text": "That's Quincy Jones' 1962 recording of his composition, \"Soul Bossa Nova,\" also known now as the theme for \"Austin Powers.\" Other music you were doing in the 1960s - you also had a pop music career. One of your biggest successes was Lesley Gore. You produced her first big hit, \"It's My Party,\" and produced other records of hers as well. Tell us how you discovered Lesley Gore.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He is so funny."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 31, "text": "You didn't like the name Gore.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I got kind of - it was a sort of a challenge, really, because I was - I had come back from Europe, and I had lost a lot of money, and I had to take - Irving Green, the president of Mercury, said"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 32, "text": "I won't tell Al Gore about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I didn't like it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 33, "text": "Whatever happened to The Crystals' recording of \"It's My Party\" that Phil Spector was producing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And Tipper. And so I went to Japan to do a television show, and we're doing a little acting and scoring it. And so I got a call from Irving Green later, and he said, did anybody call you yet? I said, "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 34, "text": "Well, I thought I'd play \"You Don't Own Me.\" That's the Lesley Gore track that's featured on your four-CD box set. I also think it's just a particularly good recording and also a kind of proto-feminist anthem.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think it came out. I don't think it came out. Lesley's thing was - had such impact. I don't know. I may be wrong, but I don't think it came out."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 35, "text": "Yeah, yeah, yeah. With a lot of strings - you know, you were talking about how you were using strings with jazz singers you were working with. I know this is Claus Ogerman's arrangement and not...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And a long time ago, too."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 36, "text": "...Not yours, but still, it's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 37, "text": "...You know, a very string-oriented arrangement.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's wonderful."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 38, "text": "OK, well, this is \"You Don't Own Me,\" produced by my guest, Quincy Jones, sung by Lesley Gore.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's an amazing musician."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 39, "text": "That's Lesley Gore, a recording produced by Quincy Jones in 1963. We're remembering Quincy Jones on today's show. He died Sunday at the age of 91. We'll hear more of my 2001 interview with him after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You don't own me. I'm not just one of your many toys. You don't own me. Don't say I can't go with other boys. And don't tell me what to do. Don't tell me what to say. And, please, when I go "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 40, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're remembering Quincy Jones. He died Sunday. Let's get back to the interview we recorded in 2001. Let's talk about your childhood. Your early years were spent on the South Side of Chicago. Your father was a carpenter, and you say that he worked for the guys who ran the rackets in the South Side. How did he end up being their carpenter?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You don't own me. I'm not just one of your many toys. You don't own me. Don't say I can't go with other boys. And don't tell me what to do. Don't tell me what to say. And, please, when I go "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 41, "text": "So these were the Jones boys your father worked for. This isn't the Quincy Jones family you're talking about.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, that was the Chicago during the Depression in the ghetto. Nobody asked any questions. You know, and Chicago also was the spawning ground of every - probably the headquarters reporting "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 42, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no, no, no."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 43, "text": "Your mother was a Christian scientist. Did she bring you up in your early years as a Christian scientist?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were the gangsters in the - back in the day."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 44, "text": "Your mother was later diagnosed as schizophrenic, and she was institutionalized for a while. What were some of her problems at home before she was actually diagnosed, problems that you found disturbing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think so. If I can remember, she went to Boston University probably in the '20s, which was very unusual, you know, for an African American female in those days. And she - very smart lady. She spoke "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 45, "text": "No, it doesn't sound like it's nothing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's dementia praecox, which is schizophrenia. She was obsessed with religion. She would stare out of the window, and she would sing spirituals. She'd play spirituals and was just erratic at tim"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 46, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "At 5 years old, it freaked me out. And I realized my brother - and I both realized something was wrong. I mean, every day we realized something was wrong because it was just - it just wasn't like othe"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 47, "text": "After she was committed, she escaped from the hospital three times. And then when she was released from the hospital, you say she followed you around from town to town for the rest of your life and sometimes showing up at the oddest times. Apparently, I guess you needed more distance from her than she wanted.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because she was very smart. And so finally, she was committed, and I didn't know or kind of blanked out what the process was until I went back there, like, 50 years later, when I did \"Listen Up.\" All "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 48, "text": "Lloyd's your brother. Lloyd's your brother.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely. Well, we had a very hard time communicating. We couldn't have a conversation without it being - turning into a big argument. And I didn't know - I guess Lloyd and I both were so hungry"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 49, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Lloyd is my brother, yeah, my younger brother. We were so hungry for the mother stuff and just to be patted on the back or head or something that we just never could communicate. We didn't know how to"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 50, "text": "Well, one of the strangest places your mother showed up - one of the most surprising times was at Birdland when you were performing. Tell us what happened.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Please. Cholesterol sounds like something to drink, you know?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 51, "text": "You know, I was reading the obituary for your mother. She died in 1999 at the age of 94. And one of the things that mentioned about her was that she was a master typist and that she once typed the New Testament as a gift to her children.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God. I couldn't believe it. That was the first time I ever played Birdland with my own band. I was really proud because I'd seen all my idols there - Charlie Parker and Dizzy, Duke, Basie, ever"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 52, "text": "Do you remember getting that as a gift?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, she did."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 53, "text": "We're listening to my 2001 interview with Quincy Jones. We'll hear more of it after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. And I said to her - I said, this is - I'm very touched, you know? But, you know, you can buy this for, like, $3 or $4 or something like that. And she - you know, but she meant it as someth"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 54, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We were remembering composer, arranger and producer Quincy Jones. He died Sunday at the age of 91. Here's the final part of my interview with him, which we recorded in 2001. I want to get back to your music and to get to the most colossal success that you had, and that was the album \"Thriller\" with Michael Jackson. You first met him in 1972 at Sammy Davis' house. You worked together on \"The Wiz.\" What was his or yours or, you know, the both of yours original concept for \"Thriller\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. And I said to her - I said, this is - I'm very touched, you know? But, you know, you can buy this for, like, $3 or $4 or something like that. And she - you know, but she meant it as someth"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 55, "text": "What was your approach to producing \"Thriller\"? What did you think of as your major contributions to the sound of that record?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it starts before that. It starts during the movie, you know, of when we first met after - initially at 12 years old. It was - he was about 19, so about '77 or so. And he came over to the house. "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 56, "text": "Well, let's hear \"Billie Jean.\" I really regret we're out of time. I wish we could talk some more. I want to thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course, \"Thriller\" was a combination of all my experience as an orchestrator and picking the songs and Michael's - all the talents he has - as a dancer, as a singer, as an amazing entertainer. It w"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 57, "text": "My interview with Quincy Jones was recorded in 2001. He died Sunday at the age of 91.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a pleasure, Terry."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-05", "guest": "Dinah Washington", "title": "Remembering superstar music producer Quincy Jones", "question_index": 58, "text": "Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be Oscar nominee Saoirse Ronan. She has two new films in theaters - \"The Outrun,\" about a young alcoholic trying to get sober, and \"Blitz,\" about a mother in London during the World War II German bombardment trying to find her lost son. Her other films include \"Little Women,\" \"Lady Bird,\" \"Brooklyn\" and \"Atonement.\" I hope you'll join us. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our cohost is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a pleasure, Terry."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 0, "text": "Jenny Slate, welcome back to FRESH AIR. That clip is so funny.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's just so - it just felt like - I just don't feel like this was meant to be sent - like, I wanted to have the baby, but I was like, did you mean for me to do this, though? Like..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 1, "text": "So I'm wondering - you know, I said that in your 20s, you felt like an impostor adult. Now that you're a mother, do you feel like a genuine, actual, real adult?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 2, "text": "Who did you expect to be after you became a mother?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I guess so, but I think I've also started to understand that that definition is, like, really rather subjective, or it doesn't mean one thing. But, you know, do I feel capable? Do I feel like I'"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 3, "text": "You know, you say in your special that, you know, people think my feelings are too much and no one wants to deal with them. What kind of feelings do you think are perceived as too much?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's so strange but it's like, I do say to my husband sometimes, like, when is Ida, our daughter - is she going to have a moment where she's like, oh, it's - I'm calling her Mom but, like, this is Jen"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 4, "text": "Yes, yes, yes, yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But the fact is that it's, yeah, sensitivity, insecurity. But I think the main one is maybe not a feeling but a behavior. And it's the, like, constantly checking to see if the other person - how they'"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 5, "text": "Is that just all happening in your head, or you're actually asking these questions to the other person?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's very little that happens in my head that's not going directly into my husband's face. And...."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 7, "text": "Do we have to talk about it? Now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I also think that I've learned to be respectful about that. And, you know, there are some things that are harder for me to tolerate. Like, I see one flash of a thing, and I'm like, what is that? Y"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 8, "text": "Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So obviously there's a very kind of sensitive, reflective part of you. But when you're onstage, you turn that into a very - almost loud kind of comedy. You know, you're laughing; you're sometimes screaming.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like, right when he's falling asleep, you know, does he need that? I actually know that that's, like, kind of a no - a don't-do-it zone, you know?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 9, "text": "So how do you turn these kind of vulnerable, sensitive things into the kind of comedy you do onstage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 10, "text": "So is knocking on someone's door at 4 in the morning to say - after four dates to say I love you, that was the extreme thing that you improvised?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think they're already that, the way that I would relay this experience. Like, if you asked me to tell you what it is right now, it would look the way it looks when I'm doing stand-up. There would be"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 11, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 12, "text": "So when you first realized that you were sensitive and also sensitive in the kind of way where you're always, like, reading somebody else and trying to adjust for that, did you see that kind of sensitivity as a strength or a vulnerability, something you wanted to change?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 13, "text": "You know, I can see how that kind of constantly reading another person's expressions or reading between the lines of what they're saying could be a real asset as a comic because as a comic, or at least the kind of comic you are, you're reflecting out loud about your inner life. So what can be complicated in the moment can really pay off, I think, as a comic.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was unconscious at first. It was just, like, something that I was doing, and I didn't notice it. And that's really hard because there were returns on my perceptions. And, you know, it was l"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 14, "text": "That's a really interesting point to make it more about them. Like, are you OK? How are you feeling? As opposed to what's wrong with me? OK. Time for a break. So let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is comic, writer and actor Jenny Slate. Her new comedy special, \"Seasoned Professional,\" is streaming on Amazon. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with comic and actor Jenny Slate. Her comedy special, \"Seasoned Professional,\" is about getting pregnant, giving birth and becoming a mother and a lot of other subjects along the way. It's streaming on Amazon. When you got into comedy, how old were you, and what was your very early material like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I think so, too. I also think that, like, it helps me to separate my real self from what I'm seeing in someone else and then internalizing. One thing I've noticed about myself is that when I am up"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 15, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was in the improv group at Columbia, and that, to me, actually feels like the start of it, even though it was, you know, like, a school activity. But that is really when I started to form as a comed"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, like, it really - it still makes me laugh. I won't talk about anything onstage if it's, like, a dead subject for me. Like, I think of stand-up as - at least for me - you know, everybody does it d"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 17, "text": "I'm still thinking about all the bats and wondering...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm like, that's ready to come back right now, for me. I mean, like, I'm like, that's next, especially now that I have a daughter."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 18, "text": "Did you think a lot about, like, early vampire films? 'Cause that's what I associate bats with. But also, bats are famous for all the dung in bat caves.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 19, "text": "So did you end up with, like, dung on your bed or on the kitchen table?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 20, "text": "Like, instead of a mosquito, it was a bat.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "this is my personality, but I was so excited about this, like, big green frog. And I was just like, yes, this is so cool. I'm going to catch that frog. And then I would go towards it, and he would be "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 21, "text": "Now I'm thinking also about growing up in a house that your family, I mean, including your parents, especially your father, believed was haunted.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 22, "text": "So tell us about that. You talk about that in your first comedy special.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 23, "text": "So between the bats and your parents thinking you lived in a haunted house, that sounds like a horror film.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I believe it was haunted, too. You know, take it or leave it. Like, everyone has their own opinions about the spirit world and apparitions. But, yeah, my dad had - he had discovered a packet of "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 24, "text": "A lot of parents would say, you know, it was just coincidence or dad just woke up and he was still, like, half-dreaming. So don't worry, because there's no such thing as a haunted house.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And produced a comedian. Yeah, I was scared of our house growing up. Like, I was sad - certainly sad - when my parents moved out. It was a very beautiful house."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 25, "text": "But that's apparently not what your parents said.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 26, "text": "I want to ask you about \"Marcel The Shell With Shoes On,\" which started as an animated web series that you created with your then - were you still married when you created it, or was he your boyfriend then? I'm trying to get the sequence right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's return to Terry's interview with comic and actor Jenny Slate in March. Her comedy special \"Seasoned Professional\" and a book of essays is about getting pregnant, giving birth "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 27, "text": "And remind me of his name.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, we were just - yeah, we were boyfriend and girlfriend when we made the first Marcel the Shell short film."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 28, "text": "So you and Dean started the series as boyfriend and girlfriend. And then you were married, and then you divorced and continued the series together, which is another story. I should say that the film version - it started as a web series. And then the film adaptation, which you also did with Dean, was Oscar-nominated for best animated feature. How did you come up with the idea of having a shell as the leading character in a story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Dean Fleischer Camp."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 29, "text": "Can you do it for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it started with me doing the voice. I was, like, just as a goof, doing this voice. I was, like, doing a weird voice while we were..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 30, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Marcel the Shell) Oh, yeah. I can do it right now. This is what it sounds like. Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 31, "text": "When you were creating Marcel's voice, I think you said it was a voice you'd used before.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was doing it while we were at a wedding. And Dean had - he said he would make a video for a friend's comedy show, but he hadn't done it. And he was like, can I interview that voice, basically? Like,"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 32, "text": "Can you do it a little bit more so we can hear it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, I mean, looking back on it, I'm really glad that I didn't spend that in that context just 'cause it led to so much more creative control for me to do it just outside of that community. But, yeah,"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 33, "text": "It's such an earnest voice. I've heard you say that you talk to your daughter, your 3-year-old daughter, sometimes in Marcel's voice. How did you start doing that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Marcel the Shell) Yeah. I mean, you could probably just - like, I can do it, like, whenever I want to. But probably at the end of a day of, like, recording it, I get, like, a little - I get tired."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 34, "text": "What do you tell her in Marcel's voice that's different from what you tell her in your voice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I talk in Marcel's voice, sometimes without realizing it. A lot of times, like, there's a running commentary. Like, especially, you know, if we're in traffic or we're in a line, it's really fun, you k"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 35, "text": "Do you want to sing in Marcel's voice and tell us how you do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Marcel gets more info from her. So actually, as Marcel, I just ask her questions, you know, like, why didn't you like that sandwich? What was wrong with it? What happened at school today? Like, she'll"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 36, "text": "A song from \"Oklahoma!\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's like - OK. This is one of the songs that Ida and I sing together. (Imitating Marcel the Shell, singing) There's a bright golden haze on the meadow. There's a bright golden haze on the meado"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 37, "text": "\"Oh, What A Beautiful Mornin'.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I love that song."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 38, "text": "Yeah. OK. That's so great. Is it hard to maintain the voice while you're singing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's the best."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 39, "text": "Why is that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's easier to sing in Marcel's voice than it is to speak in Marcel's voice."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 40, "text": "Now, you do voices for other animated series. You've done voices - a voice for \"Bob's Burgers\" and \"Big Mouth,\" \"Zootopia,\" other animated films. So do you want to do you want to do the \"Bob's Burgers\" voice for us and tell us about creating it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm not sure. I really actually don't know. I do a lot of voice work, but I'm not in any way a trained performer. I have not been to, like, an acting conservatory or singing classes or, you know, noth"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 41, "text": "Well, we have to take another break here. So let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is comic and actor Jenny Slate. Her new comedy special, \"Seasoned Professional,\" is streaming on Amazon. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with comic and actor Jenny Slate. Her new comedy special, \"Seasoned Professional,\" is about getting pregnant, giving birth and becoming a mother, and it's about a lot of other subjects along the way. How did you know that you could do voices?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in \"Bob's Burgers,\" (as Tammy Larsen) I kind of just talk like this. I play a character named Tammy. She's not nice. She's really selfish. She wants everyone to look at her right now. It's just "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 42, "text": "Were there other animated characters whose voices you loved growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh man, I mean forever. It's been my delight to do voices, and I've just always thought that voices are the funniest thing. Like, as a kid, I thought Robin Williams as the Genie was just - it was like"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 43, "text": "Oh, Pee-wee was great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. I mean, to the, like, you know, the treacly, just sickening - like the treacly, sweet voices of the Chipmunks where - you know, I just, like, loved how that sounded and would, like, use the "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 44, "text": "Yeah. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 45, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He really screamed. He really yelled at people."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 46, "text": "You do. And I was going to bring that up. Like, you have so many different screams.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, which I love. And I always thought Pee-wee was - I mean, Pee-wee has some attitude as the character, but, I guess that got deep in me 'cause I love to scream onstage."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 47, "text": "And sometimes you'll do several different screams consecutively.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 48, "text": "So I'm going to ask you, if you don't mind, and if you don't think it'll blow out your voice, to back up from the mic and do some screams for us. How about before each scream, tell us what you're thinking of that this scream represents. Like, what context you'd use that scream in.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 49, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. OK. So I think, like, if I'm, like, so startled by something that I realize is happening and I can't stop it, the scream would kind of be like (screaming). Like that. Like you're, like, you're "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 50, "text": "What did the fortuneteller tell you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, you know, that's the truth. The screams are, like, the truth. They're, like, the level at which I'm feeling things."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 51, "text": "Thanks for that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It turned out..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 52, "text": "But she was right. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, thanks."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 53, "text": "Can you do one more?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Should have listened."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 54, "text": "Do you ever hurt your voice when you scream? Do you know how to scream without shredding your voice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. I wonder what - yeah. And then, like, OK. Then there's one that's, like, kind of, like, a variation that happens when there's, like - you're watching something and you don't know what's going on"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 55, "text": "One of the things you failed at was one of the most important turning points in your life. All your life you want to be on \"Saturday Night Live,\" and then you got the job and you accidentally turned frick into the four-letter expletive. You were supposed to use the euphemism...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do know how to scream without shredding my voice. So I do that. Like, when I'm recording for \"The Great North\" - I feel like I scream a lot, actually, in \"The Great North,\" just 'cause, like, they l"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 56, "text": "...But the real word came out. So the frick turned into the four-letter expletive, and you were fired. I think that was the reason you were fired.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 57, "text": "Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I don't think so, actually."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 58, "text": "Didn't fit in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think I generally just..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 59, "text": "Did they explain why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Didn't fit in. I - socially, I felt like I fit in. Like, I'm still friends with most of, you know, the people, like, that I worked with. But I did not click in as a person who could work there for "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 60, "text": "Was that through word of mouth that was on the internet or a press release?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. They didn't. And I actually found out that I was fired, like, on the internet. So it just kind of was like..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 61, "text": "Your first comedy special was called \"Stage Fright,\" and you attribute your stage fright, in part, from getting fired at \"Saturday Night Live.\" What's the connection?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think it was on, like, Deadline Hollywood. And somebody that I knew was like, oh, no, I'm so sorry. I saw the article in the trades, basically. And I was just like, what? You know, like, I did"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 62, "text": "When I interviewed you in 2014, as our time was about to run out, we had been talking about stage fright and how you went to a hypnotist who you kind of attribute to helping you overcome the stage fright, and you think you were hypnotized. So you went back to the hypnotist to help you overcome your habit of sleep eating. And I had to cut off that part of the conversation 'cause we had to end the interview. Our time was running out. And so I'd like to pick up where we left off the last time. I'm not sure what sleep eating is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think it's, like, the firing. I think it was, like, also Twitter was, like, relatively new then. And I had, like, no understanding of myself as a public person. You know, I just thought of mys"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 63, "text": "Do you think this hypnosis helped with that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it used to be - and also, like, I used to also just, like, smoke a lot more weed, you know? Now I don't anymore. It's been maybe six years since, like, there has been any marijuana in my life. L"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 64, "text": "Oh, really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think so. I don't think so. And I also think that I really pushed mostly through whatever he did to me to get rid of the stage fright. It was better for a while. And then it just came back so "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 65, "text": "It's like tension release - oops, tension", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...The time - yeah, yeah, yeah. It just came - like, it's just - I really want to do a live stage show, like, a more of kind of like a one-woman show. And the thing holding me back is, like, I am deli"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 66, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...The time - yeah, yeah, yeah. It just came - like, it's just - I really want to do a live stage show, like, a more of kind of like a one-woman show. And the thing holding me back is, like, I am deli"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 67, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Totally. Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 68, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's not a comfortable feeling. And it's not a, like, the lady doth protest."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 69, "text": "Jenny Slate, it's been great to talk with you again. Thank you so much for coming back on the show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like, you know, tell me I'm really good, and, like, I should be doing this. It's like, I don't like it. It's not a good fit for me. And I have to take whatever success I've earned to allow myself a sc"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 70, "text": "You're more than OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "it's always nice to be invited in once, but I always say it's the return, you know, that means that you're OK."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 71, "text": "You were great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 72, "text": "This was a real pleasure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...For having me."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-08", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "As a 'Seasoned Professional,' Jenny Slate now finds strength in her sensitivity", "question_index": 73, "text": "Jenny Slate talking with Terry Gross earlier this year. The comic and actor has a new book of essays titled \u201cLifeform.\u201d Coming up, Justin Chang reviews the new Clint Eastwood film \u201cJuror #2.\u201d This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5186948", "date": "2024-11-14", "guest": "Richard Price", "title": "Richard Price explores second chances, and rising from the rubble in 'Lazarus Man'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. I always look forward to a new Richard Price novel, and after nearly 10 years of waiting, he has a new one called \"Lazarus Man.\" During those 10 years, he cocreated and wrote for the HBO series \"The Night Of\" and \"The Outsider\" and wrote for the HBO series \"The Deuce.\" Before that, he wrote for \"The Wire,\" one of the best TV series ever. Several of his earlier novels were adapted into films, including \"Clockers,\" \"Freedomland\" and \"The Wanderers.\" He also wrote the screenplay for the film Al Pacino considers his comeback film, \"Sea Of Love.\" Price is considered one of the best writers of urban fiction and one of the best writers of dialogue. And I think that's true of his new novel, which is set in Harlem, where Price has lived since 2008, the same year that the novel is set. The story revolves around the collapse of a five-story building whose impact is like a very small-scale 9/11. It's devastating for the people in the neighborhood, including the survivors and the people grieving for loved ones who've died. The collapse changes the lives of each of the main characters, including a young street photographer, a police community affairs officer, a funeral director who can't keep up with the quota of bodies he needs to stay in business and a 42-year-old man who has been feeling like he's lost everything and has little to live for and is found buried in the rubble. It's remarkable that he's still alive, which is why the novel is called \"Lazarus Man.\" Reviewing the novel in The Washington Post, Ron Charles wrote, for a nation riven and terrified, \"Lazarus Man\" is the strangest of urban thrillers - a thoughtful, even peaceful story about stumbling into new life. Richard Price, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Because I love your writing, I want to start with a reading from the very beginning of the book.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5186948", "date": "2024-11-14", "guest": "Richard Price", "title": "Richard Price explores second chances, and rising from the rubble in 'Lazarus Man'", "question_index": 1, "text": "When we spoke in 1986 after your novel \"The Breaks,\" you said something that reminds me of something that you wrote in the paragraph that you read, this whole kind of, like, maybe this time, the whole idea of maybe this time can be a drug. You were talking about your feeling of discontent when you were, you know, younger, and feeling like you're over here but it's over there. And the minute you're over there, it's over here.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All righty. (Reading) It was one of those nights for Anthony Carter - 42, two years unemployed, two years separated from his wife and stepdaughter, six months into cocaine sobriety and recently moved "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5186948", "date": "2024-11-14", "guest": "Richard Price", "title": "Richard Price explores second chances, and rising from the rubble in 'Lazarus Man'", "question_index": 2, "text": "This feeling of restlessness and discontent and maybe wanting to be someone else.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5186948", "date": "2024-11-14", "guest": "Richard Price", "title": "Richard Price explores second chances, and rising from the rubble in 'Lazarus Man'", "question_index": 3, "text": "You wrote this novel during the COVID shutdown, at least part of it during the COVID shutdown. And I'm wondering if you were feeling more vulnerable at that time. I mean, you live in Manhattan, which was a city that had, like, trucks that had been turned into morgues. Were you thinking a lot about mortality and the unpredictability of life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, it's just some people have, like, this constant state of lowkey agitation - that the thing, the very thing that's going to make you whole, is like one microdot outside your fingertips."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5186948", "date": "2024-11-14", "guest": "Richard Price", "title": "Richard Price explores second chances, and rising from the rubble in 'Lazarus Man'", "question_index": 4, "text": "So you go out and talk to strangers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, everybody was, you know, the first wave. But on a writing level, what happened to me is - I love to go out on the street, talk to people. It's a lot more fun than writing. And I couldn't do that"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5186948", "date": "2024-11-14", "guest": "Richard Price", "title": "Richard Price explores second chances, and rising from the rubble in 'Lazarus Man'", "question_index": 5, "text": "You know, the book is called \"Lazarus Man.\" I'm wondering what the role of religion was in your life growing up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just being on the street. Just the random things that you overhear or the conversations you get into, because so many people - Harlem is, like, a little different than the rest of New York in terms of"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5186948", "date": "2024-11-14", "guest": "Richard Price", "title": "Richard Price explores second chances, and rising from the rubble in 'Lazarus Man'", "question_index": 6, "text": "Did you fast?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I knew not to curse on Yom Kippur, so God wouldn't put me in the book of death."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5186948", "date": "2024-11-14", "guest": "Richard Price", "title": "Richard Price explores second chances, and rising from the rubble in 'Lazarus Man'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Did you both keep that deal?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. I went to Hebrew school until I was bar mitzvahed. And then after that, my relationship with being Jewish was pretty much - the only time I really felt Jewish is, besides Sandy Koufax no"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5186948", "date": "2024-11-14", "guest": "Richard Price", "title": "Richard Price explores second chances, and rising from the rubble in 'Lazarus Man'", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5186948", "date": "2024-11-14", "guest": "Richard Price", "title": "Richard Price explores second chances, and rising from the rubble in 'Lazarus Man'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Your character of Anthony says this later. When things go good, we say God is good. But when things go south that's apparently on us. Do you find a lot of truth in that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "How would I know? Oh, I'm taking the kids out for a walk. I'll be back. Why are they all dressed up in white? Oh, it's a nice day. White looks good in April. Who knows? But I'd imagine that we kept to"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5186948", "date": "2024-11-14", "guest": "Richard Price", "title": "Richard Price explores second chances, and rising from the rubble in 'Lazarus Man'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Sure, yeah, no, absolutely.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was just my feeling. But it's a very complicated thing that he's setting up here, which is to say - you know, it'd be easiest for me if I could find in the book what he says."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5186948", "date": "2024-11-14", "guest": "Richard Price", "title": "Richard Price explores second chances, and rising from the rubble in 'Lazarus Man'", "question_index": 11, "text": "There is a fair amount of gratitude in the novel. And I think, you know, gratitude and a gratitude practice has sometimes come to seem like a cliche. On the other hand, gratitude is a really important thing to have in your life and to be able to find gratitude in life. And I'm wondering. For you as a writer, how do you take something that could be a cliche and turn it into something that's not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "*** For a brief moment, he stood there speechless, amazed at what he was about to say. What I have learned since that day in the rubble is that whatever befalls you in life, whatever appears to you as"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5186948", "date": "2024-11-14", "guest": "Richard Price", "title": "Richard Price explores second chances, and rising from the rubble in 'Lazarus Man'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Richard Price. His new novel is called \"Lazarus Man.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I read my reviews and they say what has resonated with them, they'll use words like gratitude. But I wasn't thinking, oh, I'm going to really use gratitude as a theme. I mean, the guy just surviv"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5186948", "date": "2024-11-14", "guest": "Richard Price", "title": "Richard Price explores second chances, and rising from the rubble in 'Lazarus Man'", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Richard Price. His new novel is called \"Lazarus Man.\" It's set in Harlem in 2008, and it's about how the lives of several people are changed after the collapse of a five-story building, including the life of one man found in the rubble. I want to talk with you a little bit about race, writing about race and race in this novel. Anthony, the character who was found under the rubble after the five-story building collapsed - he's biracial. His white father was kind of a race man. He taught African American history. And you write, (reading) what his father could never understand was how all of his righteous defiance in the end had cost him nothing because he could come and go in his angry white skin as he pleased. Despite marrying a Black woman and having mixed-race kids, there was no such thing as an honorary brother no matter how many times you raised your fist in solidarity or how many prison writing workshops you conducted or how many times you got up in some cop's face.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I read my reviews and they say what has resonated with them, they'll use words like gratitude. But I wasn't thinking, oh, I'm going to really use gratitude as a theme. I mean, the guy just surviv"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5186948", "date": "2024-11-14", "guest": "Richard Price", "title": "Richard Price explores second chances, and rising from the rubble in 'Lazarus Man'", "question_index": 14, "text": "And I'm wondering, like, when you write about biracial or Black characters or Latino characters, as you've done, like, throughout your career, have you faced any pushback by people saying, you're appropriating other people's stories, and you have no right to tell them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I read my reviews and they say what has resonated with them, they'll use words like gratitude. But I wasn't thinking, oh, I'm going to really use gratitude as a theme. I mean, the guy just surviv"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5186948", "date": "2024-11-14", "guest": "Richard Price", "title": "Richard Price explores second chances, and rising from the rubble in 'Lazarus Man'", "question_index": 15, "text": "You've always, to my knowledge, lived in multi-ethnic, multiracial communities, including when you were growing up in the projects in the Bronx.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I haven't. But even with \"Clockers,\" which I wrote in 1990, '89, '91, I was really aware of the whole notion of cultural piracy. And, like, how dare I write about someone who, quote-unquote, \"you "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5186948", "date": "2024-11-14", "guest": "Richard Price", "title": "Richard Price explores second chances, and rising from the rubble in 'Lazarus Man'", "question_index": 16, "text": "So that must be helpful in writing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5186948", "date": "2024-11-14", "guest": "Richard Price", "title": "Richard Price explores second chances, and rising from the rubble in 'Lazarus Man'", "question_index": 17, "text": "One of the characters founded a group called Put The Guns Down - this is, like, an anti-youth-violence group...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. You know, I said that to somebody. Well, somebody - when I was writing \"Clockers\" and I - and somebody said, well, how can you write about African Americans when you're not African American yourse"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5186948", "date": "2024-11-14", "guest": "Richard Price", "title": "Richard Price explores second chances, and rising from the rubble in 'Lazarus Man'", "question_index": 18, "text": "...And also founded a youth mentorship program, Young Scholars for the Future. And these are all former, you know, gang members, many of them who'd been in prison, who now want to be of service to young people and convince them they don't want that life. So, you know, when they're in the park, they're there and giving, you know, inspirational speeches from former gang members. And I just want to quote a little bit of it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5186948", "date": "2024-11-14", "guest": "Richard Price", "title": "Richard Price explores second chances, and rising from the rubble in 'Lazarus Man'", "question_index": 19, "text": "So the founder of the group says, in terms of, you know, mentoring young people, (reading) we'll become their surrogate fathers because that's what they need because in my experience - and no disrespect to you ladies. But in my experience, it takes a man to raise a man. I'm not leaving out the young girls. We also have females in our organization who will work directly with the young girls to teach them mannerisms, etiquette and how to be classy young ladies. You know, I have such respect for the people who - this is me talking, no longer quoting the book. I have such respect for people who do this kind of work. But there was this inherent sexism...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5186948", "date": "2024-11-14", "guest": "Richard Price", "title": "Richard Price explores second chances, and rising from the rubble in 'Lazarus Man'", "question_index": 20, "text": "...In the talk.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. I mean..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5186948", "date": "2024-11-14", "guest": "Richard Price", "title": "Richard Price explores second chances, and rising from the rubble in 'Lazarus Man'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's the whole point."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5186948", "date": "2024-11-14", "guest": "Richard Price", "title": "Richard Price explores second chances, and rising from the rubble in 'Lazarus Man'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Yeah. So talk about that a little bit.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's one of the points."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5186948", "date": "2024-11-14", "guest": "Richard Price", "title": "Richard Price explores second chances, and rising from the rubble in 'Lazarus Man'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Also, I know you love malaprops, like, words used inappropriately. And this character says that we'll work directly with the young girls to teach them mannerisms, etiquette and how to be classy young ladies. I think he means manners. But he's saying mannerisms.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, people can be for social justice. People could, you know, put their lives on the line. They can put in the hours to save, you know, youth from going down the wrong path. But that doesn"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5186948", "date": "2024-11-14", "guest": "Richard Price", "title": "Richard Price explores second chances, and rising from the rubble in 'Lazarus Man'", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is just a small thing from the book. I just wanted to ask you. I'll read the sentence. (Reading) The good thing about hooking up in a chain hotel as opposed to a one-off was that once you got over the sterile layout of the appointments, you weren't as preoccupied with catching something that would permanently alter your biology. I have often wondered in hotels, how many people have had affairs? How many people have had sex on this blanket that may or may not have been washed since or the bedspread that may or may not have been washed since? Do you wonder about that when you're in hotels?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "See; but this is the thing. You know, I mean, that's the importance of dialogue to me. People say stuff, and it's like a fingerprint for that character. And you got to hear it. You can't - it's - I me"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5186948", "date": "2024-11-14", "guest": "Richard Price", "title": "Richard Price explores second chances, and rising from the rubble in 'Lazarus Man'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Let's take another break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guess is Richard Price. His new novel is called \"Lazarus Man.\" We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not if I can help it. I mean, I don't go to, like, you know, hot-sheet motels. But what you don't know probably could - would stun you and horrify you. I mean, the character in the book - it's an affa"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5186948", "date": "2024-11-14", "guest": "Richard Price", "title": "Richard Price explores second chances, and rising from the rubble in 'Lazarus Man'", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. ***", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not if I can help it. I mean, I don't go to, like, you know, hot-sheet motels. But what you don't know probably could - would stun you and horrify you. I mean, the character in the book - it's an affa"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5186948", "date": "2024-11-14", "guest": "Richard Price", "title": "Richard Price explores second chances, and rising from the rubble in 'Lazarus Man'", "question_index": 27, "text": "*** This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Richard Price. His new novel \"Lazarus Man\" is set in Harlem, where he lives, and follows the lives of several people whose lives are changed after the collapse of a five-story building, including one man who was found in the rubble. Price is the author of several novels that have been adapted into movies, including \"Clockers,\" \"Freedomland\" and \"The Wanderers.\" He cocreated and wrote for the HBO series \"The Night Of\" and \"The Outsider\" and wrote for the HBO series \"The Wire\" and \"The Deuce.\" There's a story in your book that I really love. It's the woman who's a postal worker and her son was shot in the calf. He wasn't the target, but he was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not if I can help it. I mean, I don't go to, like, you know, hot-sheet motels. But what you don't know probably could - would stun you and horrify you. I mean, the character in the book - it's an affa"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5186948", "date": "2024-11-14", "guest": "Richard Price", "title": "Richard Price explores second chances, and rising from the rubble in 'Lazarus Man'", "question_index": 28, "text": "...Collateral damage. And she's sure of who did it, and he's a really large guy. And she goes up to him with her son and says, I have no idea who did this to him, but if you know, can you tell him that my son's a really decent kid. And he runs with some troublemakers, but he's a really good kid.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5186948", "date": "2024-11-14", "guest": "Richard Price", "title": "Richard Price explores second chances, and rising from the rubble in 'Lazarus Man'", "question_index": 29, "text": "Oh, I loved it, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yeah. I mean, basically, you know, when the kid is in the hospital, he just had a graze. And the detectives - he won't talk because he knows better. And the detectives turn to her. And she says, "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5186948", "date": "2024-11-14", "guest": "Richard Price", "title": "Richard Price explores second chances, and rising from the rubble in 'Lazarus Man'", "question_index": 30, "text": "And, you know, so she introduces herself. She tells him what floor she lives on. And she says, look, like, now we know each other. If we pass each other, like, we should say hello and talk to each other.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Go right up to the guy who shot him and just introduce yourself, have your son there, and talk to him indirectly. If you happen to know who did this, can you communicate to that person and, you know, "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5186948", "date": "2024-11-14", "guest": "Richard Price", "title": "Richard Price explores second chances, and rising from the rubble in 'Lazarus Man'", "question_index": 31, "text": "I think so, too. I so admire people who have that ability to, instead of, like, confronting somebody in anger, just kind of disarm them with humanity.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And then she sort of makes him shake her hand. And, I mean, that's, like, brilliant."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5186948", "date": "2024-11-14", "guest": "Richard Price", "title": "Richard Price explores second chances, and rising from the rubble in 'Lazarus Man'", "question_index": 32, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You have to have that confidence."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5186948", "date": "2024-11-14", "guest": "Richard Price", "title": "Richard Price explores second chances, and rising from the rubble in 'Lazarus Man'", "question_index": 33, "text": "So there's a con in your book. And I'm wondering what are some of the most interesting street cons you've come across in your life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And you have to have grown out of being a 5-year-old in a 40-year-old body emotionally. You have to not be a victim of arrested development. So you have your wits about you. You don't fly off the hand"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5186948", "date": "2024-11-14", "guest": "Richard Price", "title": "Richard Price explores second chances, and rising from the rubble in 'Lazarus Man'", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's, you know - I'll tell you one. It's like you're walking the street, and these couple of guys are walking the other way. And all of a sudden, it seems they went out of their way to bump in"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5186948", "date": "2024-11-14", "guest": "Richard Price", "title": "Richard Price explores second chances, and rising from the rubble in 'Lazarus Man'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Richard Price. His new novel is called \"Lazarus Man.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So here's 40 bucks. And the minute I paid him off, I just felt like smacking myself in the forehead - d'oh (ph). Anyway, that was - you know, you have this delayed reaction to the con. But the second "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5186948", "date": "2024-11-14", "guest": "Richard Price", "title": "Richard Price explores second chances, and rising from the rubble in 'Lazarus Man'", "question_index": 36, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Richard Price. Price is the author of several novels that have been adapted into movies, including \"Clockers,\" \"Freedomland\" and \"The Wanderers.\" He cocreated and wrote for the HBO series \"The Night Of\" and \"The Outsider\" and wrote for the HBO series \"The Wire\" and \"The Deuce.\" You got an award in 2020 and said that screenwriting saved your life. You said, I was so ripe with despair, you could smell it on me. Screenwriting saved my life - my mental life, my spiritual life, my financial life and actually my physical life. So how did it change your life? Like, what changed about your spiritual life from screenwriting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So here's 40 bucks. And the minute I paid him off, I just felt like smacking myself in the forehead - d'oh (ph). Anyway, that was - you know, you have this delayed reaction to the con. But the second "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5186948", "date": "2024-11-14", "guest": "Richard Price", "title": "Richard Price explores second chances, and rising from the rubble in 'Lazarus Man'", "question_index": 37, "text": "When you say the circumstances around \"Clockers\" changed or something along those lines, what do you mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know what I meant by spiritual, but I just felt lost because my first four novels were so self-referential that I had nothing else to say. I mean, I have four novels at 32 years old, and they "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5186948", "date": "2024-11-14", "guest": "Richard Price", "title": "Richard Price explores second chances, and rising from the rubble in 'Lazarus Man'", "question_index": 38, "text": "That was about cops.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what happened was I was doing research for \"Sea Of Love,\" and I was in Jersey City."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5186948", "date": "2024-11-14", "guest": "Richard Price", "title": "Richard Price explores second chances, and rising from the rubble in 'Lazarus Man'", "question_index": 39, "text": "You're 75 now. Is there anything surprising you about getting older?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And I was with these cops, and they had to go into this housing project to, you know, find either a witness to a homicide. And I was shocked by the housing projects. But there - it was madness. "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5186948", "date": "2024-11-14", "guest": "Richard Price", "title": "Richard Price explores second chances, and rising from the rubble in 'Lazarus Man'", "question_index": 40, "text": "This is the kind of age where you start having friends who are getting sick or dying or, you know, having signs of dementia. And what's it like, assuming that's happening in your life - that you have friends to whom that's happening? How are you handling that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "*** is there."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5186948", "date": "2024-11-14", "guest": "Richard Price", "title": "Richard Price explores second chances, and rising from the rubble in 'Lazarus Man'", "question_index": 41, "text": "Right. In your acknowledgments, you thank your children, who raised you. What do you mean by that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's not easy. But most of the people I know or I knew who have passed in my life I was not that close to. I just - you know, I feel like within a week of reading the obits in the New York Times, ther"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5186948", "date": "2024-11-14", "guest": "Richard Price", "title": "Richard Price explores second chances, and rising from the rubble in 'Lazarus Man'", "question_index": 42, "text": "Did it relieve the burden of being trapped in yourself since you were responsible for others?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just feel having children molded me, remolded me. It wasn't all about myself. To finally have people in your life that you're more scared for than you're scared of anything for yourself, to finally "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5186948", "date": "2024-11-14", "guest": "Richard Price", "title": "Richard Price explores second chances, and rising from the rubble in 'Lazarus Man'", "question_index": 43, "text": "Richard Price, it's always great to talk with you. Thank you so much, and congratulations on the novel.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I love that not because it helped me escape from myself, because it was just natural. I mean, it's like Anthony comes out, and, you know, he just wants to be of service. You know, I've never mad"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5186948", "date": "2024-11-14", "guest": "Richard Price", "title": "Richard Price explores second chances, and rising from the rubble in 'Lazarus Man'", "question_index": 44, "text": "Richard Price's new novel is called \"Lazarus Man.\" Coming up, Maureen Corrigan reviews what she describes as two much-needed books. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're welcome."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-15", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering novelist Dorothy Allison, author of 'Bastard Out of Carolina'", "question_index": 0, "text": "You understand this fantasy of having people watch you and admire you as you're beaten but remain defiant?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) I didn't daydream about fire anymore. Now I imagine people watching while Daddy Glen beat me, though only when it was not happening. When he beat me, I screamed and kicked and cried like the"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-15", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering novelist Dorothy Allison, author of 'Bastard Out of Carolina'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Something that really upsets the girl on this story - she hates the beatings. She hates the incest. She hates her stepfather. But she's turned on by the stories she tells herself about the beatings. And she feels terribly guilty about this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. It's curious because it's what I did as a child, and I've talked to other survivors, and it's one of the ways in which you can fight the feeling of being this contemptible being. Because basicall"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-15", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering novelist Dorothy Allison, author of 'Bastard Out of Carolina'", "question_index": 2, "text": "And she thinks that maybe she's as guilty as her stepfather is. That's something you understand, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-15", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering novelist Dorothy Allison, author of 'Bastard Out of Carolina'", "question_index": 3, "text": "I think one of the reasons why someone might be reluctant to admit to a feeling like that is not only their own kind of fear at what they were feeling, but also the fear that somebody would say, well, see, that must have - mean she enjoyed it, you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. And it's hard to explain to people on the outside of the experience, mostly because it's really hard to admit that you could take that experience and convert it into your own erotic charge. I"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-15", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering novelist Dorothy Allison, author of 'Bastard Out of Carolina'", "question_index": 4, "text": "When you hear about somebody having experienced sexual pleasure while they were being victimized...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. It's like the myth of rape, you know? Obviously, if you orgasm during rape, then it must not have been rape. So if a child begins to feel erotic excitement while being manipulated by an ad"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-15", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering novelist Dorothy Allison, author of 'Bastard Out of Carolina'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Would you tell us the story your relatives told you about how you were born?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what upsets me is it that they're then ashamed of themselves for it. That I find upsetting. We don't have - especially if you're a child - I mean, my incest started when I was 5 years old. I was"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-15", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering novelist Dorothy Allison, author of 'Bastard Out of Carolina'", "question_index": 6, "text": "How old was she when she gave birth to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was born in a car accident. My mother was on the way to the airport with a bunch of my uncles and aunts, and they hit another car. And she was in the back seat asleep, so she was thrown over the fro"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-15", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering novelist Dorothy Allison, author of 'Bastard Out of Carolina'", "question_index": 7, "text": "She did eventually marry, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Fifteen - one month past her 15th birthday. She was a child."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-15", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering novelist Dorothy Allison, author of 'Bastard Out of Carolina'", "question_index": 8, "text": "And he was the man who abused you when you were growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mother married three times. Well, the first marriage was annulled. But she married my stepfather when I was 5 and lived with him until she died."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-15", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering novelist Dorothy Allison, author of 'Bastard Out of Carolina'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Did she know about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-15", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering novelist Dorothy Allison, author of 'Bastard Out of Carolina'", "question_index": 10, "text": "So you must have been very angry with your mother for staying with your stepfather after she knew for certain what was happening to you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes and no. One of the things that's hard to explain to people is that my mother knew because there were - I told her. Actually, I didn't tell her. I told one of my cousins, who told her. What's hard "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-15", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering novelist Dorothy Allison, author of 'Bastard Out of Carolina'", "question_index": 11, "text": "And - yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not until I was in my 30s did I really start to get angry at her in that way. My mother loved me. My mother spent her whole life desperately trying to make my life and the lives of my sisters better. "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-15", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering novelist Dorothy Allison, author of 'Bastard Out of Carolina'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Dorothy, I'm going to ask you to read something from the preface to a collection of short stories that came out a few years ago. And the collection of short stories is called \"Trash.\" Would you read the opening of the preface for us? It's titled \"Deciding To Live.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We're listening to Terry's 1992 interview with Dorothy Allison, the author of the bestselling novel \"Bastard Out Of Carolina.\" More after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-15", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering novelist Dorothy Allison, author of 'Bastard Out of Carolina'", "question_index": 13, "text": "Why do you think you went through a self-destructive period after having decided to live and getting away from home?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) I became the one who got away, who got glasses from the Lions Club, a job from Lyndon Johnson's war on poverty, and finally went to college on a scholarship. There, I met the people I had al"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-15", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering novelist Dorothy Allison, author of 'Bastard Out of Carolina'", "question_index": 14, "text": "What helped you do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh. Dear, it's like math. It's like one and one. You take a child and rob that child of all self-esteem, you will get an adult that has no sense of their own worth. I spent a good portion of my late t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-15", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering novelist Dorothy Allison, author of 'Bastard Out of Carolina'", "question_index": 15, "text": "You did something that it sounds like nobody else in your family had done before. You left home. You went someplace else. You tried to have a life different from the lives you had seen around you. How did you make that move?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'll tell you the truth. I think it was feminism. It's - I began to believe that there was an explanation for what had happened to me, and I came to it largely through a political understanding. I wen"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-15", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering novelist Dorothy Allison, author of 'Bastard Out of Carolina'", "question_index": 16, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I did something. I did a number of things nobody else in my family had done before. I was the first person in my family to graduate from high school, the first person to go to college. There have "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-15", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering novelist Dorothy Allison, author of 'Bastard Out of Carolina'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It wasn't exactly a life in which you could keep money."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-15", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering novelist Dorothy Allison, author of 'Bastard Out of Carolina'", "question_index": 18, "text": "Right. Something else that set you apart from your family and probably from a lot of people who you knew growing up is that you're a lesbian.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But that when you're - if you make that decision with my mother's encouragement, believing that I was different, a lot of other things come along. The fact that I was so bright and won so many prizes "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-15", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering novelist Dorothy Allison, author of 'Bastard Out of Carolina'", "question_index": 19, "text": "How old were you when you figured that out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-15", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering novelist Dorothy Allison, author of 'Bastard Out of Carolina'", "question_index": 20, "text": "Now, when you were young, things were much less in the open about homosexuality than now. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was about 11. And I wasn't entirely sure all of what it meant. I just knew that I didn't have any of the same desires as everybody else around me. I wasn't much interested in boys or the wh"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-15", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering novelist Dorothy Allison, author of 'Bastard Out of Carolina'", "question_index": 21, "text": "...I think...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-15", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering novelist Dorothy Allison, author of 'Bastard Out of Carolina'", "question_index": 22, "text": "...People who were gay and lesbian were really encouraged to think of themselves as sick and perverted. Coming from a kind of background where you were already really worried and really guilty about who you were and why your stepfather was abusing you, thinking that you liked girls probably or might have brought on...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's scary."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-15", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering novelist Dorothy Allison, author of 'Bastard Out of Carolina'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Yeah. Right", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It made it complicated."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-15", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering novelist Dorothy Allison, author of 'Bastard Out of Carolina'", "question_index": 24, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It made it complicated."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-15", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering novelist Dorothy Allison, author of 'Bastard Out of Carolina'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well, I'm sure a lot of our listeners are thinking that right now, frankly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I began to think or worry that people would think that I loved girls because my stepfather had raped me. It was one of the..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-15", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "Remembering novelist Dorothy Allison, author of 'Bastard Out of Carolina'", "question_index": 26, "text": "Well, Dorothy Allison, I want to thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I - yeah, almost everyone that I've ever talked to says, well, that's it. That's why. But I don't believe it. I believe that my lesbianism has been a source of energy and power in my life. It's al"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 0, "text": "Scott Eyman, welcome to FRESH AIR. I found this book really interesting. I didn't realize how controversial Chaplin was and how many different agencies had investigated him - the FBI, the CIA, the Immigration and Naturalization Service, the Post Office, the House Un-American Activities Committee. So his most controversial film was the 1940 film \"The Great Dictator.\" This was a satire of Hitler. It was a - it was made a year before the U.S. entered World War II. What was controversial about ridiculing Hitler?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies. Charlie Chaplin is a legendary figure of American cinema, remembered for silent films such as \"Modern Times,\" about the alienation of factory work, and \"The Great D"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 1, "text": "This is the Jack Warner as in the Warner Brothers company.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he started shooting the film in September 1939. It came out on October 1940. At this point in history, America is a isolationist country, as is Congress. Hitler was not our problem. The Jews of "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 2, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 3, "text": "One of the reasons that I think that his studio didn't want him to make the film is that they wanted all their films to play in Germany, and Germany was definitely not going to play an anti-Hitler film. And also, the Germans, for a while, thought that Chaplin was Jewish. Why did they think he was Jewish?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", but he was passing along the story. He didn't really need to pass along the story. Chaplin was totally committed. But nobody wanted that film made. The British Foreign Office didn't want the film ma"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 4, "text": "So what was the impact of \"The Great Dictator\" on Charlie Chaplin's life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were obsessed with the idea that Chaplin was Jewish. That's a very good question, because at one point, there was a book published in Germany by a Jewish consortium that included Chaplin in a ros"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The thing about Chaplin is that he was going to do what he thought was the right thing to do. He didn't listen to committees. He didn't listen to friends who told him you're making a mistake. He had a"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 6, "text": "So America enters World War II about a year after \"The Great Dictator\" is released. And once we enter the war, Chaplin starts talking about opening a second front on the Russian border. What would that have meant just on a technical level?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He - the audience had always followed him wherever he led. They had followed him into feature motion pictures with \"The Kid\" and \"The Gold Rush\" when people said that they didn't think he could pull o"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was completely unconcerned with that. He thought the..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 8, "text": "All right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Only way for - he didn't get into logistics. He..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 9, "text": "So what kind of trouble did this get Chaplain in, the idea of opening up a second front?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Believed that Hitler was a moral and religious and psychological and a death threat to Western democracy, and nothing else mattered except that he'd be defeated, logistics and military personnel an"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yeah, we'll get into that. So there was a 1,900-page FBI file on Chaplin. It's a lot of pages.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They shadowed him. They began surveilling his house to see if any known communists showed up at his front door for a meeting. That was the approximate cause for a fair amount of the government surveil"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 11, "text": "What were some of the different chapters in it? What were some of the things they investigated about him over the years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a lot of pages."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 12, "text": "Did he know this was happening?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You name it. They - it depends on the period you're talking about. Basically, at one time or another, he was the target of the entire security apparatus of the United States of America. You know, they"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 13, "text": "Did you get access or try to get access through the Freedom of Information Act to the FBI files on Charlie Chaplin?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can't imagine he didn't know. But if he did know, he did not acknowledge it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 14, "text": "Oh, I didn't realize that. So you read them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, they've been available for years."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well, it sounds like he was a man who didn't like to belong to things. I mean, he liked to make his own films and to lead everybody, but he didn't like to belong to groups or parties or anything like that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", would never be privy or a member of a party with a top-down autocratic drift because he could not possibly have done what anybody else wanted him to do, because Chaplin had never done what anybody e"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 16, "text": "What was their ideology", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think he belonged to..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 17, "text": "? Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think he belonged to..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 18, "text": "OK, so despite the fact that he was never a member of the Communist Party, he did have friends who were members. And you call him the most prominent victim of the red scare. In 1950, he becomes a target of Senator Joe McCarthy, the senator most responsible for creating hysteria surrounding people alleged to have communist ties. And you write that this turned McCarthy from a backbencher with a drinking problem into a political star. What were the allegations he made against Chaplin?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There you go. He belonged to the Lambs Club in New York, acting - a bunch of actors. He never joined the Director's Guild. He never joined the Screen Actors Guild. No, he was absolutely not a joiner. "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 19, "text": "So what became of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That he was a termite eating away at the foundation of America, and sooner or later the house is going to collapse - essentially the same charge that the investigators at the House Committee on Un-Ame"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 20, "text": "Right. And the FBI found nothing, too, in spite of those 1,900 pages. Did people know that? Because smears tend to stick with you - it's hard to wash them off. So did the charges, did the allegations stay with him even though nobody ever found anything?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nothing, basically, because Chaplin had never been a member of the party. And he never actually was called before Congress. They kept threatening to call him before Congress, but they didn't. And I su"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 21, "text": "Oh, wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 22, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Who had just been put to death, you know?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 23, "text": "So let's start with the sexual allegations that surrounded Charlie Chaplin. One of the things he got into trouble with was his affairs with young women. And you traced this interest in people much younger to when he was 18 and he was infatuated with a 12-year-old. And when he was, like, 52 or 53, he had an affair with Joan Barry when she was 22. And she is somebody who had an affair with J. Paul Getty, who was very, very wealthy. This is the kind of age gap - 53 or 52 versus 22 - that still makes many people very uncomfortable today. And I'm wondering if you want to compare the reaction then to the kind of reaction you think it would get now.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR, and we're listening to the interview Terry Gross recorded last fall with author Scott Eyman about his book \"Charlie Chaplin Vs. America: When Art, Sex, And Politics Collided.\" It's "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 24, "text": "I want to ask you about the paternity suit filed against him. And this was filed by Joan Barry, the woman who was 22 when he was about 52. And she was asking for a lot of money in this paternity suit. The blood test showed he wasn't the father. But before the blood test, Barry went to gossip columnist Hedda Hopper, who already didn't like Chaplin. Tell us a little bit about Hedda Hopper and her relationship with Chaplin. Like, you know, Barry went to the right person 'cause if she wanted to smear Chaplin, Hedda Hopper was the person to do it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it would cause trouble now. No question it would cause trouble now. I think people are even more sensitive about it now than they were then. At the time he was going to trial in the paternity su"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 25, "text": "How did he respond?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 26, "text": "I want to talk with you about when Charlie Chaplin was banned from returning home to the U.S. I mean, he was born in England and spent his childhood there, but he spent, you know, the majority of his life in the U.S. He'd gone to England in 1952 to promote his latest film, \"Limelight.\" And right before he left, Hedda Hopper wrote an item in her gossip column saying that he was planning this trip. And then she writes to Richard Nixon, who at the time was a senator from California. What does she write to him?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies. We're listening to the interview Terry Gross recorded last fall with author Scott Eyman about his book on the remarkable life of actor and filmmaker Charlie Chaplin"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 27, "text": "So she wanted government action against Chaplin.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And she was basically trying to foment government action, using Richard Nixon as the battering ram."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 28, "text": "OK. So does Nixon take action on her letter or just file it with the other letters that she's written him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 29, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He writes her a placating letter saying, yes, you're absolutely right. I couldn't agree with you more. And then he changes the subject..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 30, "text": "But meanwhile, the attorney general gets the Immigration and Naturalization Service to open an investigation that leads to Chaplin being banned from returning to the U.S. after his trip to England. What reasons do they give for banning him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Because at this - by this time, he's running for vice president on the ticket with Dwight Eisenhower. And he's got bigger fish to fry than Charlie Chaplin or Hedda Hopper. And evidently he does abs"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 31, "text": "Because...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The reasons were vague. The document - a press conference that the attorney general gave a week after the revocation mentioned Chaplin's leering, sneering attitude towards the United States, mentioned"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 32, "text": "Why didn't he ever become an American citizen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Because he'd never been convicted of a crime. He had never been convicted of a crime. And that was the way that they deported various people that they didn't want in America, like mafiosi. They wou"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 33, "text": "You said, had he fought the ban on his returning to the U.S., he would have been allowed in 'cause they didn't really have anything on him. But he didn't fight it. Why didn't he?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because one of his core beliefs was that nationalism was a lethal disease, and it led to things like Adolf Hitler and Nazism in World War II. A friend of his named Max Eastman, who knew him quite well"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 34, "text": "And he felt he'd been smeared for so many years.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He got his back up. He was enraged. He was furious. And he didn't want to be a guest at the party if he was disinvited."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 35, "text": "Soon after he was banned from returning to the U.S., there was a campaign to ban his films from theaters. The American Legion passed a resolution urging American movie theaters to boycott his latest film, \"Limelight,\" and every movie in which he appeared. And in their magazine, they published a story about Chaplin, saying his films were a sustained assault on democratic ideals and that Chaplin had long used film as a propaganda medium. And they said \"Modern Times\" is one of the few non-Soviet films constantly shown in exhibition in the Soviet orbit. That was totally false, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, God, yes. Yes. Would he have done this on his own? No. I don't think there's any scenario under which he would have left America on his own. He had a wife. He had four young children, at this poin"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 36, "text": "So how successful was the campaign to ban Chaplin movies from theaters?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Totally false. None of his films were shown in the Soviet Union until the Gorbachev era because the Soviet Union wouldn't pay the money that Chaplin thought they should to rent the films, and he wasn'"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 37, "text": "\"Limelight\" was?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Extremely successful. Extremely successful. \"Limelight\" was a huge hit in Europe. Actually, it made more money than any other Chaplin film in terms of European grosses. But it only - it - a lot of pla"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 38, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Limelight\" was a..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 39, "text": "So by the time Chaplin is banned from returning to the United States, few theaters can actually even show his movies.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Completely apolitical picture. But they were reacting to - they were still reacting to \"The Great Dictator.\" They were still reacting to \"Modern Times\" and the idea of \"Modern Times\" being anti-cap"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 40, "text": "For how long?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "True. Absolutely true. And so he had them pulled from release in America."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 41, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Until 1964."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 42, "text": "So after Chaplin decides not to challenge the ban against him returning to the U.S., he moves to Switzerland. He has a really good home life with his wife, Oona, and their many children. But you say it ruined him as an artist. How?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR, and we're listening to the interview Terry Gross recorded last fall with author Scott Eyman about his book \"Charlie Chaplin Vs. America: When Art, Sex, And Politics Collided.\" It's "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 43, "text": "Chaplin grew up very poor. His father was an alcoholic. His mother had mental health problems and was institutionalized. He lived in a rooming house with his father and his father's mistress. And then his father died young, and Chaplin was sent to a workhouse as an indigent child. Just briefly describe what a workhouse was.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The two films he made after he moved to Switzerland are grossly inferior to the films he'd made amongst all the tumult and controversy in Hollywood in the '30s, '40s and even until \"Limelight\" in 1952"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 44, "text": "After the Immigration and Naturalization Service banned Charlie Chaplin from returning to the U.S., and he refused to fight it because he felt he'd been so mistreated in the U.S. and so smeared, he never returned to the U.S., right? That was it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A workhouse was basically a state-run orphanage for children whose parents were either dead or rendered insane or institutionalized themselves or in jail, and they had no other adult supervision. So t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 45, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He came back to get his honorary Oscar in 1972..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 46, "text": "Who?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...On his terms. He - they were - they - his films were being reissued all over America, all over the world. He signed a deal for his film library, and his films were being reissued, and they gave him"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 47, "text": "What did Charlie Chaplin say in his acceptance speech?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sam Goldwyn, Cary Grant and William Wyler. Everybody else shut up."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-22", "guest": "Scott Eyman", "title": "'Charlie Chaplin vs. America' explores the accusations that sent a star into exile", "question_index": 48, "text": "Scott Eyman, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was overwhelmed. It was a 12-minute ovation. It was the longest ovation in the history of the Oscars. Old age is beginning to have its way with him when you look at it on YouTube. He's older. He's "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The classic songs \"Lady Be Good,\" \"Embraceable You,\" \"'S Wonderful,\" \"Love Is Here To Stay,\" \"Let's Call The Whole Thing Off,\" \"Fascinating Rhythm,\" \"I Got Rhythm,\" \"I've Got A Crush On You,\" \"My Ship,\" \"The Man That Got Away,\" \"Long Ago (And Far Away)\" - I could go on - they all have lyrics by Ira Gershwin. Most of his best-known songs were written with his younger brother, the pianist and composer George Gershwin. But Ira also wrote with Harold Arlen, Jerome Kern and Kurt Weill. My guest, Michael Owen, is the author of the new book \"Ira Gershwin: A Life In Words.\" Owen was the archivist for the Ira and Leonore Gershwin Trusts until those papers were given to the Library of Congress. Owen now works with the trusts as a consulting archivist and historian. He's also the author of a book about the singer Julie London. Let's start with Ella Fitzgerald singing \"Lady Be Good\" from her 1959 album, \"Ella Fitzgerald Sings The George And Ira Gershwin Song Book.\" It's the title song from an early Gershwin musical.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 1, "text": "Michael Owen, welcome to FRESH AIR. I love the Gershwin's music, so it's a pleasure to be able to talk with you about it. I opened with \"Lady Be Good\" 'cause I think it ties together the early part of Ira Gershwin's career with the part in the 1950s when he wasn't really writing much. And his career, his songs, like, needed a boost. And Ella Fitzgerald's \"Gershwin Song Book\" really helped give him that. So can you talk a little bit about the importance of both of those and, you know, the \"Lady, Be Good\" musical and the Ella Fitzgerald \"Gershwin Song Book\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Oh, sweet and lovely lady, be good. Oh, lady, be good to me. I am so awfully misunderstood. So lady, be good to me. Oh, please have some pity. I'm all alone in this big city. I tell you, I'm"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 2, "text": "George and Ira had very different interests and personalities. George was more extroverted. Ira was more, like, shy or wanted to stay more in the background. And, you know, George was very musical. Ira was immersed in words. He read a lot. He kept a record of what he read. He started writing light verse that was published in the college magazine or newspaper and other places. Were they close as children being so different from each other?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, first off, for having me on. 1924 was absolutely a big year for Ira and George. It brought them together for the first time as a songwriting team to write a Broadway show. And because \"Lady"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 3, "text": "When Ira was young, either in high school or college, he became friends with Yip Harburg, the lyricist probably most famous for writing the lyrics for \"The Wizard Of Oz.\" And he also wrote the very famous lyric, brother, can you spare a dime? And not only were they friends, and they often, like, talked about not only poetry and light verse but also lyrics together, Ira actually contributed a couple of lines to \"Over The Rainbow\" from \"The Wizard Of Oz.\" What was Ira's contribution?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were only two years apart, and they were the first and second children of Morris and Rose Gershwin. So they grew up together, even though their interests were very separate. George was somebody w"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 4, "text": "If happy little bluebirds fly beyond the rainbow, why, oh, why can't I?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, all three of the writers who were friends - Harold Arlen, the composer, Yip Harburg and Ira, who had been classmates and writing partners together before - when Arlen and Harburg had been hired "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 5, "text": "And he did not get credit as a lyricist?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And I think that sums up the song in many ways. It sums up the film. It sums up Dorothy's journey. But Ira - I think he just was helping out his friends, and whether he got credit for that or n"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, he didn't. He did not get credit."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 7, "text": "Why don't we just hear that coda, just hear the end of the song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 8, "text": "That was the end of \"Somewhere Over The Rainbow\" from \"The Wizard Of Oz.\" And we heard those last couple of lines, which were actually written by Ira Gershwin. Ira read so many books and, you know, wrote light verse. And some of the lyrics have really fun, funny literary references in them. An example for that is \"But Not For Me,\" which is a beautiful song. And it has a line, I found more skies of gray than any Russian play can guarantee, one of his famous lines. Can you talk a little bit about that song and where - how it originated?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) If happy little bluebirds fly beyond the rainbow, why, oh, why can't I?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 9, "text": "Part of the lyric - and it's the end of the lyric - goes, when every happy plot ends with a marriage knot and there's no knot for me. So it's a...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, \"But Not For Me\" was one of the songs that was written for the 1930 musical \"Girl Crazy,\" which featured a very young Ginger Rogers. That was a song that Ginger Rogers sang in the show, a ballad"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 10, "text": "...Clever play on words.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 11, "text": "Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely correct. And I think that one of the things that Ira complained about sometimes was that in a theater, most people were never going to get that sense of the song. They were going to hear th"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 12, "text": "He was the same with \"'S Wonderful.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because he always wanted to have some fun with the lyrics. I don't think he ever thought of lyric writing, particularly in his early years, as a job so much as it was his way of making his thoughts ab"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 13, "text": "If somebody sang, it's wonderful, he'd get pretty upset. And I was listening...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 14, "text": "...To the Lee Wiley - she did a whole set of Gershwin songs. And she sings, it's wonderful, as opposed to, 's wonderful. But she's such a great singer. Anyhow, let's not get too distracted and hear...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 15, "text": "Let's hear \"But Not For Me.\" Shall we hear Lee Wiley singing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 16, "text": "And this is on her recording from the 1930s, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Let's hear Lee Wiley."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 17, "text": "So let's hear Lee Wiley's recording from the 1930s of George and Ira Gershwin's \"But Not For Me.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Lee Wiley was - she's generally a forgotten name in the world of popular song these days, but she was one of the first performers to do what we now call songbook albums."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 18, "text": "That was Lee Wiley, recorded in the 1930s singing the Gershwins' song \"But Not For Me.\" My guest, Michael Owen, is the author of a new book called \"Ira Gershwin: A Life In Words.\" Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) They're writing songs of love, but not for me. A lucky star's above, but not for me. With love to Iead the way, I found more clouds of gray than any Russian play could guarantee. I was a foo"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Michael Owen, author of the new book \"Ira Gershwin: A Life In Words.\" What was their approach to writing together? Everybody wants to know what came first, the words or the music. And their approach to writing together changed over the years.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) They're writing songs of love, but not for me. A lucky star's above, but not for me. With love to Iead the way, I found more clouds of gray than any Russian play could guarantee. I was a foo"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 20, "text": "Sammy Cahn used to say that, too", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It did. Ira jokingly would usually say that what came first was the contract. But..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It did. Ira jokingly would usually say that what came first was the contract. But..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 22, "text": "I think they all said that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I think - so..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 23, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think they all said that, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 24, "text": "So let's hear a song that the Gershwins wrote for a movie musical, and the musical is \"Shall We Dance?\" And the song is \"They Can't Take That Away From Me.\" Did they like writing for Fred Astaire? I love his singing, as well as his dancing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And in the early days - and, you know, I would say that it would have been from the '20s into the mid-1930s - it was usually George's melodic ideas that started the ball rolling for a song. And i"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 25, "text": "Exactly, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They did love writing for Fred. And there was something about Astaire's voice. It wasn't necessarily the most powerful or the most evocative, but he had the rhythm."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 26, "text": "Was it highly syncopated?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he had the feel for what George and Ira had in mind. And so even in the years after George's death, Ira wrote the songs for one of Fred's movie musicals, his reunion with Ginger Rogers in the 1940"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 27, "text": "So this is a song from the 1937 movie musical \"Shall We Dance?\". And the song is \"They Can't Take That Away From Me.\" Any insights into how the song was written?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very syncopated. And I think that people talk about, you know, how the interpretation - and this is going on to a different subject a little bit. But the interpretation of George Gershwin's music has "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 28, "text": "OK, so this is Fred Astaire singing \"They Can't Take That Away From Me.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was actually written very quickly. The - when the - when George and Ira came to Hollywood the second time in 1936 to write for RKO Pictures, to write for Astaire and Rogers, who were already a succ"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 29, "text": "There's Fred Astaire singing \"They Can't Take That Away From Me.\" My guest is Michael Owen, author of the new book, \"Ira Gershwin: A Life In Words.\" Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) The way you wear your hat, the way you sip your tea. The memory of all that, no, no, they can't take that away from me. The way your smile just beams, the way you sing off-key, the way you h"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 30, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Michael Owen, author of the new book \"Ira Gershwin: A Life In Words.\" He knows a lot about Gershwin's life and music. For about a decade, he ran the Ira Gershwin estate archive. And then after that, he became a consulting historian and archivist to the estate. Is it fair to say that one of Ira Gershwin's favorite songs was \"Embraceable You\" - of his own songs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) We may never, never meet again on the bumpy road to love."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 31, "text": "No. Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think he was hard put to say what his favorite song was. He always said that it was like choosing your favorite child. I think it was one of his father's favorite songs because his father seemed to "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 32, "text": "That's a love song", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 33, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 34, "text": "That's hilarious, I mean...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 35, "text": "Isn't it like, don't be a naughty baby; come to papa do...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So everyone has their, you know..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 36, "text": "...My sweet, embraceable you? Who talks about their father that way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Come to papa do. That - it's..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 37, "text": "Yeah. You know, in a lot of - it's a beautiful song. In a lot of ways...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I - you know, everyone has their own interpretation of lyrics."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 38, "text": "...The lyric is pretty simple. And you write that George was always saying to Ira, simplify, simplify. Why would he say that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 39, "text": "And name-checks of Schopenhauer", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it goes back to George maybe having a slightly better understanding of the popular audience, that they weren't necessarily interested in tricky rhyme schemes and..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 40, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it goes back to George maybe having a slightly better understanding of the popular audience, that they weren't necessarily interested in tricky rhyme schemes and..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 41, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, and name-checks of Russian composers..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 42, "text": "And very, very singable.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And politicians and that. And largely because, as I think I said earlier, you know, a theater audience isn't - certainly in the earlier days when amplification wasn't de rigueur, it was hard for pe"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 43, "text": "So why don't we hear Billie Holiday's recording of \"Embraceable You\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And very singable, yes. You don't have to fall over a tricky beat somewhere."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 44, "text": "That was Billie Holiday singing the George and Ira Gershwin song \"Embraceable You.\" The Gershwins, along with DuBose Heyward, wrote, like, what I think is considered the first great American opera and certainly the first, you know, like, jazz-inflected American opera, \"Porgy And Bess.\" And it's always kind of confusing who wrote what lyric because Ira Gershwin is known as the lyricist for \"Porgy And Bess,\" but some of the lyrics are actually written by DuBose Heyward, and some of the lyrics are credited to both of them. Can you straighten that out a little bit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Embrace me, my sweet, embraceable you. Embrace me, my irreplaceable you. Just to look at you, my heart grows tipsy in me. You and you alone bring out the gypsy in me."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 45, "text": "Since it sounds like we're certain that Ira wrote \"There's A Boat That's Leavin' Soon For New York,\" I thought we'd hear that and also hear it from the 1977 Houston Grand Opera recording of \"Porgy And Bess\" because I think this song really exemplifies how the Gershwins combined opera and jazz. And the arrangements are so good, too, which I assume George Gershwin did.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can try to straighten it out. It's - it'll still probably remain slightly confusing. So George Gershwin and DuBose Heyward did not actually write together very often. Heyward was in the Carolinas, a"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 46, "text": "Yeah. So let's hear this 1977 production. The singer is Larry Marshall. Before we hear it, just set up briefly the context of this song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct. George arranged the - and orchestrated the entire opera."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 47, "text": "Who's a pimp.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is a song from late in the opera, where Sportin' Life..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 48, "text": "And wear the finest fashions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...The pimp, yes, the drug-dealing pimp in Catfish Row, tries to bring Bess back to his side by persuading her that he can bring her to New York. She can have a happy life as a prostitute and..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 49, "text": "OK. Let's hear it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And wear the finest fashions and take some happy dust and, you know, move away from these country folk who - you know, you're more like me, Bess. You're not one of these people. So that's basically"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 50, "text": "That's a song from \"Porgy And Bess.\" And this was from a 1977 Houston Grand Opera production featuring Larry Marshall singing. And my guest is Michael Owen, author of the new book \"Ira Gershwin: A Life In Words.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) There's a boat that's leaving soon for New York. Come with me. That's where we belong, sister. You and me can live that high life in New York. Come with me. There you can't go wrong, sister."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 51, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Michael Owen, author of the new book \"Ira Gershwin: A Life In Words.\" Ira Gershwin's career stalled at some point. Why did it stall? Was it changing times? Was it George's death? What was the problem?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) There's a boat that's leaving soon for New York. Come with me. That's where we belong, sister. You and me can live that high life in New York. Come with me. There you can't go wrong, sister."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 52, "text": "How did Ira Gershwin's life end?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "More the former, I think, than the latter. By 1954, when Ira wrote what turned out to be his last two significant works, the songs for \"A Star Is Born\" and for the drama \"The Country Girl\" with Bing C"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 53, "text": "So why don't we end with \"Love Is Here To Stay,\" the George and Ira Gershwin collaboration, one of their really enduring songs, sung by Rosemary Clooney, who was Ira's next-door neighbor and a great interpreter of Gershwin's songs? Is this a song you particularly like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Ira died in 1983. He had been housebound for a number of years. His last real work was in the early 1960s. And so he - you know, after the end of the 1960s, which was basically the last time he "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 54, "text": "Yeah. Yeah, a fitting ending. And it's the way Rosemary Clooney used to end a lot of her shows.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do. It - I shouldn't really give it away, but it is kind of how that book ends, you know."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 55, "text": "Michael Owen, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I saw Rosemary in one of her final performances in San Francisco. Not that I truly remember what she ended that concert with, but yes, she was always a great interpreter. And she did a complete r"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 56, "text": "Michael Owen is the author of the new book \"Ira Gershwin: A Life In Words.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. It's been a pleasure."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-27", "guest": "Ella Fitzgerald", "title": "Canonical lyricist Ira Gershwin gets his due", "question_index": 57, "text": "Coming up, jazz historian Kevin Whitehead has an appreciation of Roy Haynes, who played with musicians ranging from Lester Young and Charlie Parker to Pat Metheny, and Chick Corea. Haynes died earlier this month. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) It's very clear our love is here to stay. Not for a year, but ever and a day. The radio and the telephone and the movies that we know may just be passing fancies and in time may go, but, oh,"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. I hope you're enjoying your Thanksgiving. For the holiday, we're going to feature one of our favorite interviews of the year with Yo-Yo Ma. He brought his cello, which he played for us. He's the most famous contemporary cellist and perhaps the most revered in the U.S. His best-known recordings are of the Bach Solo Cello Suites, which he's recorded three times - in 1983, 1997 and 2018. He's performed with orchestras around the world, but lots of people who pay no attention to classical music know Yo-Yo Ma because he's performed in so many different contexts. He's played American folk and bluegrass music, and he's played music from around the world with the Silk Road Ensemble, which he founded. He's appeared on \"Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood,\" \"Sesame Street\" and \"The Simpsons.\" On the first anniversary of 9/11, at the ceremony held at ground zero, he performed one of the Bach Cello Suites. Earlier this year in April, he played at the memorial for the seven aid workers from World Central Kitchen who were killed in an Israeli airstrike while they were feeding people trapped in Gaza. Yo-Yo Ma started playing cello at age 4, and by the time he was 7, he performed at an event attended by President Kennedy and former President Dwight Eisenhower, where he was introduced by Leonard Bernstein. In 2011, he received the Presidential Medal of Freedom from Obama. That's one of the many honors he's received, including 19 Grammys. He has a new album with pianist Kathryn Stott who he's performed with for over 40 years. She's about to retire. Their new album, \"Merci,\" is their final album together. I spoke with Yo-Yo Ma last May at an event held at WHYY, where FRESH AIR is produced, where he received WHYY's annual Lifelong Learning Award.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 1, "text": "The only honor greater than having Yo-Yo Ma here tonight is having Yo-Yo Ma with his cello here tonight.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 2, "text": "So I'm absolutely thrilled about this. So I want you to introduce your cello to us 'cause it's from the 1700s. This cello is older than the United States of America.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 3, "text": "It has a name?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Terry, the first thing I want to tell you is that the cello's name is Petunia."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 4, "text": "One of the things you're famous for is one of the most famous series of compositions for cello. And it's the Bach Cello Suites, unaccompanied. And you recorded them three times.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And the name has stuck."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 5, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did it once in my 20s. I did once in my 40s."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did once in my 60s. So every..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 7, "text": "1983...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Twenty years or so..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 8, "text": "It was - 1983 was the first time. 2018 was the last time. So the Bach Cello Suites are the music that really first forefronted the cello, as opposed to it being more of a background instrument. Right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I figured I might get it better."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 9, "text": "Yeah. For cello alone, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was written for cello alone."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 10, "text": "Right. Exactly, exactly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So there was no background or foreground."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 11, "text": "And they're beautiful pieces. But they were kind of discovered or rediscovered, like, after his death - long after his death, I think. And some people thought, well, they're great, like, exercises. They're, like, technical exercises. They're not beautiful music - until Pablo Casals recorded it. So I would like you to demonstrate the difference between playing Bach as a technical exercise and then investing your musicality in it and making it beautiful. Because it's easy to think, oh, it's a kind of bunch of, like, grand arpeggios, some of it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It had to be all ground, right?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 12, "text": "Yeah. So can you just play part of the most - what is to you the most beautiful part of the Bach Cello Suites? Just a short passage from it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Which is great. Everybody who plays Suzuki Book 5 will play this piece. And so - but bourree is a dance, right? So you're thinking dance, and a dance - a particular dance with steps. And, you know,"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 13, "text": "I know for one of them, you'd have to retune. And let's avoid that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Well, I'll tell you something."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 14, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And as a 4-year-old, I learned it. And what was interesting for a beginning cellist - if you look at this... (Playing cello). ...I just use one finger, and it's the same pattern twice over. So the fir"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 15, "text": "You learned this when you were 4. That's when you started learning the cello.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...It was interesting. Now, why is this beautiful? Well, as a 4-year-old, I learned it, you know, fairly easily. Kids absorb things as a sponge absorbs water - really easily. After 9 years old, you do"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 16, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recently recorded with cellist Yo-Yo Ma at an event held at WHYY, where FRESH AIR is produced. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with Yo-Yo Ma in front of a live audience at WHYY, where FRESH AIR is produced. He's the most famous and perhaps the most revered cellist in America.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I'm 68. That means I've been trying to get this right for 64 years."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 17, "text": "You were quite the child prodigy. You were performing for presidents, current...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I'm 68. That means I've been trying to get this right for 64 years."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 18, "text": "...And former, by the time you were 7 - right? - Kennedy and Eisenhower. Do I have that right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 19, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess so, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 20, "text": "And, you know, Leonard Bernstein came and heard you, right? So I'm wondering, when you're young and people are making such an amazing, like, fuss over you, like you're so extraordinary, do you risk becoming a praise junkie? Do you know - 'cause you get so much of it. And that's maybe your measure of your worth in the world, you know? But music isn't always about getting praise. It's about finding, like, your voice within the music. And I'm wondering - some people can't make the transition. I think some prodigies never find what's unique about their playing, because what was unique was that they were young and gifted.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess so, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 21, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Now, what's interesting about 2-year-olds and 3-year-olds, they are the center of their world."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And if you get a lot of attention, of course you want more attention. But I think as I was growing up - my wife and I have friends that say, Yo-Yo, you know, you and your wife, you aspire towards norm"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 23, "text": "Right. Very true.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Now, that's interesting because, you know, kids are really smart. They know - no matter what you say, you go to a class, they figure out whatever hierarchy there is, who's smart, who's athletic, who d"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 24, "text": "About what?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All of us. So I didn't feel that I was particularly special because I didn't play with a lot of friends as a young person. And I never thought I was that special. A lot of people paid attention to me "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 25, "text": "So when...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...To give up, you know, croissant for Wonder Bread, you know? And, you know, I don't mind rice either, but I love potatoes, too. You know, it's like, what - do we need to make a choice on everything?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 26, "text": "When you were young and performing, were you nervous about it? And did you ever feel like - don't take this the wrong way", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...To give up, you know, croissant for Wonder Bread, you know? And, you know, I don't mind rice either, but I love potatoes, too. You know, it's like, what - do we need to make a choice on everything?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 27, "text": ", but did you ever feel like you were, like, a trained seal or - do you know what I mean? Like, here's the kid and he's going to perform for you. This is an amazing act because he is a kid. 'Cause it was - it's almost freakish to be that talented when you're that young and to be able to memorize and play such complicated music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...To give up, you know, croissant for Wonder Bread, you know? And, you know, I don't mind rice either, but I love potatoes, too. You know, it's like, what - do we need to make a choice on everything?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 28, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's assuming that - you're doing a comparative thing. I didn't particularly know what I was doing was, you know, good, bad, ugly or whatever."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 29, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We've all heard of..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 30, "text": "And he was a professor in China, a professor of music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that, you know, I had to do - well, I had to listen to them. There's not much dialogue. It's a lot of monologue, right? You do this. You're a good boy. You're going to do this, and this is the rig"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 31, "text": "He started a children's orchestra. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was - he had a children's orchestra."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 32, "text": "Did you have a chance to be a child when you were a child 'cause you must have spent so much time practicing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he was just a really brilliant teacher, but irascible. And I had a mother who was very - who loved music, who was a singer, who actually loved to be moved by music. So I had both the head and hear"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 33, "text": "One of the things I find really amazing about your life story is that you were so disciplined as a child, I mean, 'cause you had - you were learning so much stuff, and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I am living my best childhood right now."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 34, "text": "But you went through this period of actually rebelling.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 35, "text": "Are you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm still rebelling."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 36, "text": "Yes, but when you were rebelling in school, you were cutting classes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, of course. I'm rebelling against people doing things and not knowing why they're doing it. I'm rebelling against people saying, this is the only way to go. I'm rebelling against people saying, th"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 37, "text": "In Juilliard, you were sneaking out between orchestra breaks to get alcohol...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 38, "text": "...And got really drunk and were taken to the emergency...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Absolutely."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 39, "text": "...To the emergency room once.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Who wouldn't do that?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 40, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 41, "text": "You had a fake ID.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And my father had to check me out of the hospital because I was 15 years old."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 42, "text": "He could not have been very happy about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I did all those things."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 43, "text": "Your father gave up drinking 'cause he was a bad example.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. He gave up drinking because, you know, like, guilt, shame, all of that stuff."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 44, "text": "Were you punished?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was horrible."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 45, "text": "So was there a point where you weren't sure whether you really wanted to play music or whether that was just your father's idea?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, right? You see, I can see everybody's..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 46, "text": "How did that compare to the message you were getting from your father?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, let's put it this way - I loved music. I think after I went and started playing chamber music with friends at the - Alexander Schneider's sort of Christmas string seminar, which is now known as "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 47, "text": "What, you're a cellist first?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was the opposite. It was the reverse, right?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 48, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recently recorded with cellist Yo-Yo Ma at an event held at WHYY, where FRESH AIR is produced. We'll hear more of the interview after a break, and I'll ask him to play what he likes to play for himself when he needs to get in touch with something larger than himself. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah, yeah, and the right order for me always, always is you're a human being first, and then you are a member of that sector of musicians second, and last, I'm a cellist."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 49, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded in May with Yo-Yo Ma, the beloved cellist who's famous for his performances of Bach's Solo Cello Suites and for the music he's played with the Silk Road Ensemble, which he founded to play music from around the world with musicians from around the world as a way of bridging different cultures. He's won 19 Grammys and received the Presidential Medal of Freedom from President Obama. His latest album is a duet with pianist Kathryn Stott called \"Merci.\" Our conversation was recorded at WHYY, where FRESH AIR is produced, in front of a live audience.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah, yeah, and the right order for me always, always is you're a human being first, and then you are a member of that sector of musicians second, and last, I'm a cellist."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 50, "text": "Was there a piece where you felt like you really found your voice as an individual, you know, as Yo-Yo Ma as opposed to just, like, you know, somebody who's incredibly talented, but this was your voice - your unique voice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah, yeah, and the right order for me always, always is you're a human being first, and then you are a member of that sector of musicians second, and last, I'm a cellist."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 51, "text": "I think that's really literally true.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a very interesting question. It implies that we all have a consistent one voice, and I dare say that all of us of a certain age have multiple voices."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 52, "text": "Yeah, I think it's literally true.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Do you think that's true?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 53, "text": "Sure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's an exception. But I would say that this music... (Playing cello). This is a sonata by Schubert. When I was 10, I was mesmerized by Schubert, and one of the things about Schubert that is - was a"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 54, "text": "How does the piece you just played relate to that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Multiple times."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 55, "text": "Oh, I love that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It has that, you know, poignancy. It has that wistful quality. And, you know, you're yearning for something. And it's - it could be towards one way or another and whatever. But I can tell you somethin"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 56, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You love that, huh?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 57, "text": "I love the turmoil of it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK, well..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 58, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded earlier this year with cellist Yo-Yo Ma at an event held at WHYY, where FRESH AIR is produced. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it's a piece that was written at the height of the Cold War, Shostakovich - you know, social realism, depicting literally that very thing in society. And it's funny how we get so naturally into ce"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 59, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded at an event with Yo-Yo Ma in front of an audience at WHYY, where FRESH AIR is produced. He's the most famous and perhaps the most revered cellist in America.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "PT. ZERO\")"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 60, "text": "You've performed at several very important commemorative events. You performed at the first anniversary of 9/11 at ground zero. You performed at an anniversary for the Boston Marathon bombing. You performed in France by the Arc de Triomphe in commemoration of the end of World War I. And very recently, you performed for Jose Andres' World Kitchen, which provides food for people in natural disasters and in war. And seven of his people were killed in Gaza. And you performed at the ceremony - the commemorative ceremony for them. I would like you to talk a little bit about choosing appropriate music for such grave occasions and how you figure out what to play that will give people - that will enable them to fully and deeply feel their grief while also providing some kind of consolation and community. And maybe you can play an excerpt of one of those pieces that you think speaks to that kind of need.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "PT. ZERO\")"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 61, "text": "This is the - the Jose Andres commemoration?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Playing at the National Cathedral is always a special thing because it's - that's sort of like the national place for commemoration, for mourning, for celebration. And, you know, it's more than the Ep"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 62, "text": "Is there a piece that you like to play for yourself when you're alone and you need some kind of consolation, or you need to feel something larger than yourself, you know, to connect to something larger than yourself, that gives you what you need?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So there were seven people that were killed. And Jose Andres spoke, I thought, in such a way that threaded the needle, acknowledging the 200 aid workers that have been killed, you know, the 34,"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 63, "text": "So you don't even need to play it. Is that what you're saying?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know what's funny? Music goes on in my head all the time."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 64, "text": "Is there a piece that goes through your mind, since we can't get into your mind, that you could play for us to give you what you need when you need either consolation or to just get out of yourself and feel like connected to something larger?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's like - you know, my wife thinks I hate music because I - you know, often she will have the radio on or something, and I'll say, can you turn it off? And she says, you know, you obviously hate mus"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 65, "text": "Yes, I am.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I will go often - are you asking me to play something?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 66, "text": "I thought I did.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Why didn't you just say that?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 67, "text": "Yes, exactly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. You wanted some action."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 68, "text": "Whoa. OK. That was beautiful. And we started with \"'Tis A Gift To Be Simple,\" went to \"Amazing Grace.\" I don't know what the third piece was.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. So - fine. All right. (Playing cello)."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 69, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that was actually the \"Goin' Home\" from Dvorak..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 70, "text": "That was so beautiful.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Which is from his - you know, his \"New World Symphony,\" but it's also..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 71, "text": "Oh, that was just beautiful.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It also turned into a spiritual \"Going Home,\" and, you know - so it has a number of iterations."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 72, "text": "So can you talk a little bit about why those pieces are significant to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 73, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, I think we are all more than who we think we are - right? - because there's always unexplored parts. And I think with music, with anything that's created, you know, if you look deeply en"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 74, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recently recorded with cellist Yo-Yo Ma at an event held at WHYY, where FRESH AIR is produced. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with Yo-Yo Ma in front of a live audience at WHYY, where FRESH AIR is produced. He's the most famous and perhaps the most revered cellist in America.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, \"Amazing Grace,\" it's a song that's been spiritual - adapted from actually not a very religious person who wrote this. But he was in a storm, and he survived and then became very religious. "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 75, "text": "I wanted to end by paraphrasing something that you've said, and I think this was in reference to recording the Bach cello solo pieces three separate times. And you said that your approach was, this might not be perfect. It might not be the best performance, but it's the best I can do in this moment of my life. And I find something really beautiful in that 'cause it expresses the commitment of doing your best in that moment. But it also has a kind of forgiving attitude that, like, it's not going to be perfect, but it's the best I can do right now, and that's going to be good enough. I think that's a beautiful approach to things, to the music and maybe to life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, \"Amazing Grace,\" it's a song that's been spiritual - adapted from actually not a very religious person who wrote this. But he was in a storm, and he survived and then became very religious. "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 76, "text": "Oh, please", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think, to me, that's been my experience of your approach over the last 40 years."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 77, "text": ". Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think, to me, that's been my experience of your approach over the last 40 years."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 78, "text": "You were so wonderful tonight. I cannot...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, seriously, because, you know, I was going to ask, you know, do - how do you deal with burnout? How does anybody who does things for four decades avoid the trap of saying, OK, I'm caught in a rut? "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 79, "text": "...Thank you enough.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You were so wonderful."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 80, "text": "I love you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I love you, Terry..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 81, "text": "I love you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Gross."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 82, "text": "My conversation with Yo-Yo Ma was recorded on stage at WHYY in May when he was presented with WHYY's annual Lifelong Learning Award.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're our hero."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-11-28", "guest": "Yo-Yo Ma", "title": "Yo-Yo Ma on 'touching infinity' through his nearly 300-year-old cello, Petunia", "question_index": 83, "text": "Special thanks to Yvette Murray, Julian Herzfeld and our other colleagues at WHYY, who produced the event, and to Ben Mandelkern at Yo-Yo Ma's production company Sound Postings. And thank you, Yo-Yo Ma. If you're looking for things to listen to over the holiday weekend, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews, including this week's interview with John David and Malcolm Washington, who collaborated on a new movie with their father, Denzel Washington. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer is Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producers are Molly Seavy-Nesper and Sabrina Siewert. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross. Happy Thanksgiving from all of us at FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "III. ALLEGRO\")"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 0, "text": "Werner Herzog, welcome back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. Werner Herzog is a writer and director known for his unique approach to storytelling that often delves into the extreme - extreme personalities, predicaments and p"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 1, "text": "Oh...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having me again."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 2, "text": "...It is always my pleasure. Do you know why you're attracted to extremes in your life and in your films?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 3, "text": "But my question still stands. Why do you think you're attracted to making films that put you in risky situations and that put you in extreme situations? It's one thing to have in the film a metaphor like dragging a ship over a mountain, but it's another thing to actually have to do it in your film", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't see that much as extremes. You see, when you move a ship over a mountain, it is doable. And I knew it was doable, although quite hard. But I think it is such a big metaphor. Like, in literatur"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 4, "text": ", you know? At that point, it's not a metaphor. At that point, it's something your crew has to do.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't see that much as extremes. You see, when you move a ship over a mountain, it is doable. And I knew it was doable, although quite hard. But I think it is such a big metaphor. Like, in literatur"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 5, "text": "You grew up in extreme circumstances during World War II in Munich and then in a remote part of Bavaria in the mountains where you were poor. And there was one time where your mother, when you were living in Bavaria during the war, took you and your brother up a slope to get a better view of Rosenheim, a city in Bavaria that had been bombed and was on fire. And you describe it as (reading) a vast inferno, tracing the terrible pulse of the end of the world on the night sky. I knew that outside of our tight valley there was a whole world that was dangerous and spectral. Not that I was afraid of it. I was curious to know it. A lot of people would have been afraid of it. Why were you more curious to know it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I hear you, yes. But I'm not searching for finding my boundaries or some - the extreme mountain climbers do that. That's not my thing. I know my boundaries, and I accept them. And I take no as an answ"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 6, "text": "So when you were young, you got into a fight with your older brother, and you stabbed him in the wrist and the thigh. There was blood all over. And you write that you realized you urgently needed some self-discipline. What did you do to acquire that self-discipline?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was too young. You see, No. 1, when my mother fled Munich, I was only 2 weeks old - 14 days old - when there was carpet-bombing on Munich. Of course, there's no memory - anything. The childhoo"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 7, "text": "That strikes me as slightly less than hilarious and kind of dangerous.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was from one moment to the next. I knew that something like that cannot happen again. And that's how a character is being formed - defeats catastrophes that I created. And, of course, that shaped m"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 8, "text": "You know, you talk about wanting to see the dark recesses of the soul, but you also write when it comes to your soul that you'd rather die than go to an analyst because it's your view that something fundamentally wrong happens there. And you say it's a mistake to light up your soul, shadows and darkness and all. Why do you not want to light up your own soul but want to explore the dark recesses of other people's souls?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it was hilarious. I mean, come on, a shirt doesn't really burn. I mean, it glows and glimmers a little bit. But that was his joke."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's my profession. That's my profession as a poet. And you look deep into who we are and you describe it. But you shouldn't make the mistake to believe that memoirs are confessional. I'm not "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 10, "text": "It's nice to know you have your values straight.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, you see, my hair is thinning, and I just accept it as it is. So no thing - rather dead. Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 11, "text": "Are you afraid of what you'd see if you shone a light on your soul?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And women would immediately agree with me. You can't - you cannot live with a man who starts to wear toupee and thinks he is handsome now and rejuvenated."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is filmmaker and writer Werner Herzog. His new memoir is called \"Every Man For Himself And God Against All.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no. I know who I am, and I know where I come from, and I know where I'm heading toward - no fear and no regrets. Sure, I made massive mistakes, and I'm, in a way, a result of my own defeats. So be"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with writer and filmmaker Werner Herzog. His new memoir is called \"Every Man For Himself And God Against All.\" One of the films that made you famous is \"Aguirre, The Wrath Of God.\" And this is a film about a conquistador leading a Spanish expedition in South America, searching for El Dorado, the city of gold. And he goes mad along the way. He calls himself the wrath of God. What interests you about a mind that makes you want to write about it or, you know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no. I know who I am, and I know where I come from, and I know where I'm heading toward - no fear and no regrets. Sure, I made massive mistakes, and I'm, in a way, a result of my own defeats. So be"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 14, "text": "Do you feel like you are mad?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, they're somehow touching a chord that's in us, something mad or borderline mad, something of power and dementia and madness. And through such figures, all of a sudden, we have it spelled o"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 15, "text": "Oh. Explain that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no. I'm the only one in the entire profession who is clinically sane."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 16, "text": "All right. I'm definitely taking your word for it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, come on. I wouldn't have made some 80 films without having my wits together and my sanity and my professionalism. I'm the only one, when you look at the craze of Hollywood and all these red-carpet"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 17, "text": "\"Aguirre\" is about a Spanish conquistador who goes mad. And you can argue that \"Fitzcarraldo\" is a little mad, too. And the actor who you got to play both of them is Klaus Kinski, who you describe as a madman. And you knew him since you were 13 and he was 36, and you were living in the same boarding house. And you knew he'd go into rages. You'd witnessed his rages. Was it - did it seem like a good idea to you to have somebody who seemed mad play a madman? I mean, or was it just your confidence in him as an actor?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Please make sure. And you can read it. Every single line in my memoirs shows you that I'm absolutely sane in an ocean of craze."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 18, "text": "Outside of him actually firing into the tent - you know, into the hut, which happened. So I guess you were partially successful with that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We have to be careful. I said it, yes, he was mad or in moments of paranoia. But he had splendid moments of friendship and warmth and insight. So he was - had quite a few facets. And, of course, since"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 19, "text": "Well, you can't argue that his presence isn't remarkable on screen. I mean, you can't take your eyes off of him. But there is that thing that one person had part of his finger shot off when Kinski fired into the bamboo hut. So, I mean, that matters, too. I mean, I understand that what really matters to you as a filmmaker is what you see on screen. But there was some collateral damage.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not partially successful. I was successful because I made five films with him. And they all, when you look at them - and forget about Kinski, and forget about his private, crazed personality and h"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 20, "text": "You grew up - well, your very early years were during World War II, and then you grew up in the aftermath. Your father was a Nazi, and he fought in the war. But he was mostly, like, in the supply room, I think.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Tonya Mosley. Let's get back to Terry's interview from last year with filmmaker Werner Herzog. He makes movies about extremes - extreme personalities, situations and places. His"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 21, "text": "Yeah. And your mother was briefly a National Socialist. Did they talk with you ever about Nazism?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 22, "text": "Well, even your father. Your father was from an academic family. I mean, he was from a very...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We didn't talk that much. My mother - it was obvious she was, very early on, embarrassed about being - having been misguided. And she practically - of course, she had to raise, all alone, three childr"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 23, "text": "...Educated family. He was an academic himself.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 24, "text": "So you must have wondered the same about your father. How could...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 25, "text": "...Somebody who was educated, from a very educated family...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 26, "text": "You know, your mother took you to Bavaria in the mountains to escape the bombing. But in retrospect, she also escaped the Nazis. She escaped her own country - I mean, her own people.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And it happened to many other educated families. There was no one spared. I mean, Germany was almost hundred-percent Nazi. The dissidents - yes, they were out there, but they ended up in concentr"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 27, "text": "Oh, sure. I hadn't thought of that. Did you know that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In a way, yes. But, of course, in this village, there were also Nazis in the..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 28, "text": "Your parents had to undergo denazification after the war.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, there were also Nazi - well, much later. It took some time. I thought - I didn't even know what Germany was. It was the valley where we grew up, in this remote place and the waterfall in the gorg"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 29, "text": "Did they ever tell you what that entailed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 30, "text": "Your father you hardly knew. Did your mother tell you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mother. My father was always outside of my life. I hardly knew him."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 31, "text": "How do you think growing up during the war affected you, even though you were at a remove from it in the mountains - in the war and its aftermath?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, but not very much. It was fairly laconic. And she said, look at me. That's me now. And I did a very, very severe mistake in my life, and my character had to readjust. I'm a different person. I th"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 32, "text": "Although you say that- I'm wondering if you're thinking at all about the children in Israel and in Gaza. Like, children in Israel were kidnapped. There's been missile attacks. Children in Gaza have getting (ph) bombed. Many children have been killed. I'm wondering if you're thinking about that a lot now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is more the aftermath and the restrictions. For example, I noticed that we were hungry. That was the only thing that was really hard to take - otherwise, that we lived in very deep poverty. I didn'"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 33, "text": "Well, would you if you could? It sounds like you're against war and wouldn't want to participate in one.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's - yes. You have somebody talking to you who grew up in a war. We were bombed out. There were - there was a foot of glass shards and bricks and debris on my cradle when I was 14 days old. So I - a"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 34, "text": "Because?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know why I would participate? If, in Germany, all of a sudden, neo-Nazis started a rebellion - an armed rebellion, a coup d'etat - you would know who would be first one to rush back and pick up a "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 35, "text": "I understand that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because something like times of the barbarism of the Nazis must not repeat itself. You see; as long as there is breath in me, I would fight."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 36, "text": "We need to take another short break here, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is writer and filmmaker Werner Herzog. His new memoir is called \"Every Man For Himself And God Against All.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with writer and filmmaker Werner Herzog. His new memoir is called \"Every Man For Himself And God Against All.\" The first time you narrated a film was when you made a film for a production company in Germany that specialized in extreme subjects, and you did a film for them about ski jumping, which you knew a lot about having grown up in the mountains in Bavaria. And you used to, like, build a - God, what are they called? - like, platforms to jump off, to ski off of.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, of course, having caused - having created the Holocaust, Germany has specific attention to Israel. There's no doubt. But we also now - since it will be terrible what's coming, we also have to loo"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 37, "text": "Ramps, yes - and got...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, ramps. Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 38, "text": "...Terribly injured during one of those. And a friend of yours got terribly injured on one of his jumps. But anyway, so you made a documentary about that, and they told you you have to narrate it 'cause that's what everybody does. They narrate their own films. And you've been - become famous for your narrations in films, in your documentaries. And you've had some movie roles, including in \"Jack Reacher,\" in \"The Mandalorian,\" which is, like, a \"Star Wars\" spinoff, parodying yourself on \"The Simpsons.\" And they're all, like, sinister roles. What do you think it is about your voice that gets you cast in sinister roles? Maybe it's the content of what you're saying.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 39, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, the content, of course. And since then, I narrated my own writings, my own commentaries, and I had found my voice. But it's a stylized voice. When I'm talking to you, I'm talking like me. In comm"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 40, "text": "That's good to know. Can you quote...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I'm like that as a private person."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 41, "text": "...Any of the lines?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 42, "text": "Good. So we're about at the end of the interview, and I have to say you made it through without being shot at 'cause you were shot at the BBC. Or at least you were shot and only mildly wounded. Like, what was that about? Do you have any idea what had happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not really. But, you know, when \"Jack Reacher\" was released, it was released in France as well. My wife immediately gets frantic calls from her girlfriend in Paris, and she says, Lena, are you rea"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 43, "text": "Were you outside when that happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, we do not know because I just heard somebody across the street on a veranda ranting, like, road rage. And all of a sudden, I heard some sort of a mild explosion, and something like a glowing piece"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 44, "text": "Did you go to the emergency room after you were shot?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. It was outside. And you can still see it on YouTube. It's funny because people think, oh, yeah, it was all staged and made up. No, it was not. It was reality. It was the real world. And, of cours"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 45, "text": "Well, I should I hope you would have gone to the emergency room if it penetrated your intestines.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, because we could see I was bleeding, but I could see it was - the bullet went through all my leather jacket and a folded-up catalog and all my shirt and T-shirt. But it did not perforate my abdomi"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 46, "text": "OK. So what's next for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I would have gone. Sure. Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 47, "text": "Do you ever stop working?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I just finished another book, \"The Future Of Truth,\" which will be released next spring but in its German original. What you have in front of you is a very fine translation of my memoirs, but it"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-06", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "Werner Herzog says it's not good to circle 'your own navel' but wrote a memoir anyway", "question_index": 48, "text": "Thank you so much for coming back to our show. I really appreciate it, and I really enjoyed our conversation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I am - I have long hours of sleep. I'm fairly lazy. My days of shooting are brief. My hours of writing are brief. I do my tax returns three hours in the morning. Then I write three hours memoirs,"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 0, "text": "That's Cynthia Erivo from the miniseries \"Genius: Aretha.\" Cynthia Erivo, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Aretha Franklin, singing) You're a no-good heartbreaker. You're a liar, and you're a cheat. I don't know why I let you do these things to me. My friends keep telling me that you ain't no good. Oh,"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 1, "text": "It is such a pleasure to have you on the show. How did you start listening to Aretha Franklin?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 2, "text": "Did you try to emulate her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I was a kid and we would - so there's this radio station in the U.K. called Magic FM. And it plays everything - everything from, let's say - I don't know if you know a band called Mike and the Me"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 3, "text": "I know you've said that when you were listening to Aretha before playing her that one of the things you were listening for is, where did she breathe?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think I tried to emulate her. I just wanted to listen to everything she had. And I started learning her music pretty early - yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Why was that important?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Can you sing us an example of what you mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because the breath, I think, tells you everything about what the person is trying to say. You know, when you - if you look at a sentence, where the comma goes tells you what the sentence means. If I s"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 6, "text": "You get the impression that it's more far away", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I use this song often to explain it because it's - one, it's a beautiful song. And two, I had to really, really dig in and learn it. And three, it just is a wonderful example of how the breath work ch"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 7, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I use this song often to explain it because it's - one, it's a beautiful song. And two, I had to really, really dig in and learn it. And three, it just is a wonderful example of how the breath work ch"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 8, "text": "...The way you sang it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Yeah. But it - I'll tell you, it was beautiful both ways.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 10, "text": "You met her twice backstage at \"The Color Purple\" and at the Kennedy Center. Did you feel like you were able to have a meaningful conversation with her? I think sometimes, like, when you meet somebody who's so important to you, you just don't know what to say.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She just has this way with music. The way she manipulates it and uses it to tell the story is really special. And it's that sort of making you wait for the explanation 'cause when - it's a difference "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 11, "text": "She was brought up in the church, and she was brought up singing gospel in the church, on tours through the South and in her father's church. And so when she started singing R&B, it was so church-influenced. And I'm wondering about if you grew up churched at all in England and, if so, what the music was like.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And I just - I didn't know what to do. I think I just laughed. I was just like, oh, my God. And I remember her saying you - well, you can sing. You can sing. I was like, OK. Oh, my God. This is nuts"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Was the objection to the gospel music the lyrics of the song or the style of singing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We did - I did grow up in church, but different 'cause I'm - Roman Catholic is what I was raised on. And then - but I was a bit of a rebel. So when I was in church, it was a lot of, like, Christian hy"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 13, "text": "Was this a predominantly white congregation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's the style of singing. I think the style of singing was the - was where the objection came. There's a particularly straight-laced way of praising that's correct for the Catholic Church. Th"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 14, "text": "You went to RADA, which is the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts in England - very famous school. You didn't know it existed when you were invited to apply for it.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry Gross speaking with Cynthia Erivo. She's currently starring in the film adaptation of the Broadway musical \"Wicked.\" We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let'"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Was it revelatory once you got there to study acting in such a formal and probably traditional way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did not. I did not."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 16, "text": "You know, when you were talking about Aretha, you talked about the importance of where you breathe and how it can even change the meaning of a phrase. So when you were learning Sondheim songs - I think breath is really - especially important in those songs in terms of the meaning, but in some of the songs, just in terms of having an opportunity to breathe", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I just - because I didn't know that that was even a possibility when I was going through primary school or secondary school. No one was like, well, we can go to drama school. No one gave me that"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 17, "text": "'cause some of the songs, there isn't a lot of opportunity. And those songs are really rangy, you know? So your breath support would be really important. Is there a song you especially loved when you started singing Sondheim?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I just - because I didn't know that that was even a possibility when I was going through primary school or secondary school. No one was like, well, we can go to drama school. No one gave me that"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 18, "text": "I have. I've seen you sing it on YouTube. So if anybody wants to see it, it's there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I loved \"Being Alive.\" And I loved \"The Miller's Son.\" Have you ever heard \"The Miller's Son\"?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 19, "text": "Can you give us an example of what you mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That's one of my favorite songs. I just - that is one of those songs where you're like, if you don't breathe in the right place, you won't make it to the end of the sentence."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yeah, thank you. Did you - how did you figure out where to breathe? Did you get advice on that? Did it seem natural?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God. I don't even know if I can remember the lyrics. I haven't done it for such a long time. Is it - (singing) it's a wink and a wiggle and a giggle in the grass. And I'll trip the light fandan"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 21, "text": "And were you comfortable singing in an operatic style? Or did it not matter which style you sang in as long as you did the singing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I got advice. I had a really lovely teacher at RADA. It was Philip. He was just - he was wonderful, actually. I will say that. My singing teacher at RADA - we're all sort of assigned a singing teacher"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Can you give us an example of how you learned to open up your voice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was comfortable. Classical music was sort of a love of mine, and then when I went to drama school, my voice was already sort of ready to try that. And it's the same - whilst I was doing \"The Color P"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Oh, so beautiful. Now, what about that opened your voice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'll do one of the first things I did at secondary school, actually, because we'd always do sort of, like, the end-of-year, like, choral show. And this one year, we decided to do \"Rutter Requiem,\" the"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Your mother who raised you came from Nigeria. What were her dreams?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University. Let's get back to our interview with Cynthia Erivo. She's just been nominated for a Golden Globe for her pe"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Was it reassuring to you to have a mother who knew what to do if something went wrong?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She surpassed a lot of her dreams. Her dream was to be a nurse. So she got that and then had to change it. I watched her sort of go, OK, I got my nursing degree. Now, what else do I want? I think she "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 26, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my gosh, yeah. Yeah. She's cool. It's really fun."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 27, "text": "Your parents separated, I think, when you were pretty young. And by the time you were 16, your father told you and your sister that he was done.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I realize that she's, like, the child whisperer. It's really fun watching her with other people's children 'cause they don't really know how it's done. And I don't know how it's done. I feel like I've"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 28, "text": "Oh, it was just you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah, he told me. He told..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 29, "text": "What was your reaction? Could you see that coming?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Just me. He told me that he was out of our lives. And I sort of had to relay the message to everyone, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 30, "text": "Did he give you an explanation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't see it coming. Although, I - in hindsight, I probably should have seen it coming. But I didn't see it coming 'cause, you know, what 16-year-old would? At the time, I was heartbroken 'cause it"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 31, "text": "And did you think that there was something about you that made him leave? Or did you think, like, he's being mean and thoughtless in doing this, and that's on him, not on me?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Not really, no. No. I think he just had - I think he was finished being a dad."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 32, "text": "Have you spoken to him since?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. I don't know if I was thinking about that. I never really compartmentalized it. I just saw someone doing something that hurt me. And I think it was just sort of as simple as that - like,"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 33, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 34, "text": "I want to play another song from your new album. And this is called \"The Good.\" Do you want to say something about what you were thinking about when you wrote it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually - tell a lie. I bumped into him randomly at a cousin's wedding. We had an awkward sort of hello. And that was - that's it - when I was 25."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Don't need to apologize.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So when I wrote it, I - we had gotten to a point where I knew that we needed an up-tempo song. We needed something with, like - that felt upbeat and that felt fun. But I love writing ballads. I "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 36, "text": "Well, let's hear the song. This is \"The Good\" from Cynthia Erivo's new album, \"Ch. 1 Vs 1.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's what I do. And I'm - like, I enjoy them. I enjoy singing 'cause of the space in them. But then - and so as we started writing, I thought, well, what can you make this about? And my friend, who "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 37, "text": "That's Cynthia Erivo from her new album, \"Ch. 1 Vs 1.\" So this is kind of a personal question in terms of that it has personal meaning for me", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Gone is the way we used to smile, my dear. Hope doesn't spring from anywhere. Watching the world forget to breathe. Wish we could stop and feel the breeze. But I know there's no point in wai"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 38, "text": ". So you're 5-foot-1. Harriet Tubman, who you portrayed, was even shorter. And I'm not quite 5 feet. So as a short person", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Gone is the way we used to smile, my dear. Hope doesn't spring from anywhere. Watching the world forget to breathe. Wish we could stop and feel the breeze. But I know there's no point in wai"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 39, "text": ", I'm wondering if you think it's had much of an impact on your life or your career to be short?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Gone is the way we used to smile, my dear. Hope doesn't spring from anywhere. Watching the world forget to breathe. Wish we could stop and feel the breeze. But I know there's no point in wai"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 40, "text": "I did not realize it. I was reading about you, and I was like, really", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know because I never - I mean, the thing is a lot of people don't realize I am as short as I am until they meet me."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 41, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know because I never - I mean, the thing is a lot of people don't realize I am as short as I am until they meet me."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 42, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I spend a lot of my time in heels. But, like, often when I'm with other people, they're also, like, dressed up or in their heels. And so when I'm standing there, and then they're like, oh, my "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 43, "text": "What about chairs? Do you find it's hard to find a chair that fits?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...What anyone else is saying is just the same."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 44, "text": "Well, you know, chairs are, like, too deep and, often, too high.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Like, chairs that are high enough to get to get to tables and stuff?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 45, "text": "So your legs are - right. Exactly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And so your legs are swinging off the ground, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 46, "text": "Podiums.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's a thing. So you end up having to, like, perch to the - at the edge of the seat so your feet can touch the ground. Or..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 47, "text": "If the stool is to high, you have to kind of shimmy onto it because", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Podiums are hilarious 'cause sometimes you're also like, you know what? Today I'm just going to swallow my pride and ask them for a little step so I can reach the podium and feel like I'm a normal hei"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 48, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Podiums are hilarious 'cause sometimes you're also like, you know what? Today I'm just going to swallow my pride and ask them for a little step so I can reach the podium and feel like I'm a normal hei"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 49, "text": "...Because you can't reach that height. Your behind doesn't reach that high.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Shimmy onto it, yeah, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 50, "text": "And then slide down.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm, like, making little jumps to get there. It's like..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-13", "guest": "Cynthia Erivo", "title": "'Wicked' star Cynthia Erivo says she often sings 'with a bit of a smile'", "question_index": 51, "text": "Cynthia Erivo, it's been so delightful to talk with you. Thank you so much for doing this. And just thank you for your work.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Doing a vault jump. Oh, my goodness."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest is comic, actor and political satirist Ronny Chieng. He became a correspondent for the satirical news show \"The Daily Show\" in 2015 after Trevor Noah asked him to audition. Now Chieng is one of the rotating correspondents who anchor the show. He also co-stars in the new Hulu series \"Interior Chinatown.\" He had a memorable, funny scene in \"Crazy Rich Asians\" as a wealthy investment banker in Singapore. Ronny Chieng has a new Netflix comedy special called \"Love To Hate It,\" which starts streaming tomorrow. He brings an international perspective to his comedy. He was born in Malaysia, where his grandparents emigrated from China. From age 3 to 7, he lived in Manchester, New Hampshire, where his parents attended college. Then, the family returned to Malaysia, which is basically across the bridge from Singapore, so he spent a lot of time there. He attended college in Australia, where he got his BA in finance and his law degree while also doing stand-up comedy. Let's start with a clip from his new comedy special. This is from a section about how he and his wife aren't ready for children, but his wife had her eggs harvested for possible future use. He's imagining what his child - if he ever has one - might say to him.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 1, "text": "Ronny Chieng, welcome to FRESH AIR. It's a pleasure to have you on the show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Is what my father said to me."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 2, "text": "What else did your father say to you when you found out you wanted to be a comedian?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. Thanks for having me on. And I'd like to note the contrast between the yelling of that clip and how calm the rest of the interview will be."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 3, "text": "Wow. Did you think that that might be true?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He said, no white person will ever buy a ticket to go watch you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 4, "text": "Nevertheless, when you were on \"The Daily Show\" and you started on \"The Daily Show,\" you didn't tell your mother.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I didn't think that was true. But I didn't tell him I was going to go do it. I went to go do it. And then he found out, like, after I was - I'd been doing stand-up comedy for about two years, and "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 5, "text": "What were you afraid of?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I didn't tell them I got hired on the show."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 6, "text": "Well, you kind of had. That's a big achievement. That's not a small achievement.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it wasn't so much afraid. It was that I didn't want to brag about small achievements. I just wanted to do the work. I didn't want to tell them that I joined this institution which, quite frankly, "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 7, "text": "You deprived them of bragging rights.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. But I don't know. I think the work comes first, you know? Getting the job is one thing, but then can you do the job? And so, honestly, it just came out of kind of humility, of, like, oh, yeah, I"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 8, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Quite frankly, if you want to talk about bragging rights for them, once I started doing decent work and people started liking what I was doing, then they would go up to them and be like, hey. Your son"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 9, "text": "A line that really stands out to me in the bit that we just heard is, you know, why would you do that? Why would you become...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I'd rather just do the work, and then, you know, hopefully people like it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 10, "text": "...A comic? Why would you make jokes to people who don't care about your mental health?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 11, "text": "Did your father say that, or did you just come up with that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 12, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no. To be clear, that's a bit."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 13, "text": "But why did that occur to you to write that - like, to people who don't care about your mental health? I thought that was very funny. I've never heard anybody put it that way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My dad never..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 14, "text": "So, you grew up mostly in Malaysia, which is one bridge away from Singapore.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the premise of the bit is that, if I have a kid, what's going to happen, you know, if they want to do stand-up comedy? And I realize, like, I'm just like my parents. Like, even me, who has done sta"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 15, "text": "You compared it to me to how New York is to New Jersey...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 16, "text": "...Or how Philadelphia is to New Jersey on the opposite side.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 17, "text": "So were you exposed to much stand-up in Malaysia or Singapore?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. I'll let you guess which one's New York, which one's New Jersey in this analogy. But, yes, it's just a bridge across that is called the causeway. People cross the bridge from Johor Bahru, Malays"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 18, "text": "You've said you were introduced to Jewish people from \"Seinfeld\"...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I was not. The stand-up I was exposed to was in New Hampshire when my parents would play \"Seinfeld,\" the sitcom. And so you would see Seinfeld do stand-up in his interstitials, right? In between t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 19, "text": "...Like Larry David and Jerry Seinfeld. So what did it make you think Jewish people were like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 20, "text": "Your new comedy special was filmed in Honolulu.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 21, "text": "Where Doogie...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 22, "text": "Yes, thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Kamealoha."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is, like, a \"Doogie Howser\" adjacent series that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 24, "text": "Yeah, reboot that you were in. And you're very popular there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. It was a reboot, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 25, "text": "Or so you say", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 26, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 27, "text": "And you say you have a lot of MAGA friends there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 28, "text": "And on \"The Daily Show,\" you spent a lot of time...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 29, "text": "...Satirizing Trump.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 30, "text": "So how do you get around...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 31, "text": "...Arguing about politics with your MAGA friends?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a great question."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 32, "text": "You say you love America. This is the country that puts showbiz above everything. And you get...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a great question. I think, first of all, one, we might be in media silos. So the stuff I say on \"The Daily Show\" might not actually ever reach my MAGA friends because we're all so siloed in our"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 33, "text": "Yeah, yeah - and that you get paid for saying, F the president.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, you're really just quoting my special here. Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 34, "text": "And then money comes in. And you say if you did this in Malaysia - jail.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 35, "text": "But now Trump has an enemies list. He's threatening retribution.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 36, "text": "And he's trying to revoke TV network broadcast licenses.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 37, "text": "So how do you feel about insulting Trump now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 38, "text": "If you're in jail", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "if we all end up in jail."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 39, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "if we all end up in jail."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 40, "text": "Well, I hope you're right...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If we all end up in jail, then I'll probably be wrong. And maybe I'm just - this is just wishful thinking on my part. But, yeah, he said a lot concerning things about the law. But I think ultimately, "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 41, "text": "And you stay out of jail", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I hope I'm right, too."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 42, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I hope I'm right, too."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 43, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "By the way, what do I know? I'm just a comic just, you know, just making dick jokes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 44, "text": "My guest is comic and actor Ronny Chieng. His new comedy special, \"Love To Hate It,\" starts streaming on Netflix tomorrow. We'll be back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But that's why I hope, and that's why I believe. And that's why I'm still here."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 45, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Ronny Chieng. He's a field correspondent and one of the rotating anchors on \"The Daily Show.\" He costars in the New Hulu series \"Interior Chinatown,\" and he has a new comedy special called \"Love To Hate It.\" It starts streaming on Netflix tomorrow, December 17. Let's hear a clip from \"The Daily Show.\" And this is from the day after Kamala Harris conceded, so it's two days after Election Day. And you say Trump's promised a peaceful transfer of power. And then you say, let's hear it for the bare minimum of democracy. And here's the rest of the clip.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But that's why I hope, and that's why I believe. And that's why I'm still here."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 46, "text": "OK, that's not really true about the money, I'm sure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 47, "text": "Partially, partially.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 48, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's some truth to that."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 49, "text": "OK. So you got on \"The Daily Show\" after Trevor Noah became the anchor, and you knew him from performing at the same comedy festival in Melbourne, Australia, where - which is where you went to college. How surprised were you to get the call?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's some truth to that."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 50, "text": "How familiar were you with the show?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Extremely surprised because we weren't necessarily friends. He was obviously, you know, much more successful than me in the festival circuit. So we rarely crossed paths. And I ended up performing with"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 51, "text": "What I read about when Trevor Noah resigned is that you had just done a bit and then without you knowing that Trevor...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very familiar. I've been following U.S. politics since \"The West Wing\" came out, was watching it religiously, and then started, you know, always reading about U.S. presidential history. I'm a U.S. pre"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 52, "text": "...Noah was resigning...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 53, "text": "...He resigns on the air right after you're on.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 54, "text": "Were you on camera?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 55, "text": "You were on camera?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 56, "text": "Why did he do it that way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". He - yeah, he just - he explained why he was leaving the show on air. And no sign of it. There was no sign. I didn't know he was doing that."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 57, "text": "Maybe he didn't want anybody to leak it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. He's a very smart guy, and I trust his judgment on everything. And I'm sure he had his reasons. You know, and I can't speak to them, but I'm sure he had his reasons to do it 'cause it se"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 58, "text": "Ah, that's a possibility, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Maybe he didn't want anyone to talk him out of it. I don't know. I don't know, you know?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 59, "text": "What was the expression on your face like", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. But - oh, yeah, maybe he don't want anyone to leak it. That's also a possibility, you know?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 60, "text": "as you heard him resigning?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. But - oh, yeah, maybe he don't want anyone to leak it. That's also a possibility, you know?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 61, "text": "You might have also been thinking, uh-oh, what happens to \"The Daily Show\"? What happens to my job?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was like, is this a bit? And then, in my head, I was also like, well, we're not live, you know what I mean? Like, he could say that, and then we could just edit it if he changes his mind. So I was l"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 62, "text": "My guest is Ronny Chieng, a field correspondent on \"The Daily Show\" and one of the anchors. He co-stars in the new Hulu series \"Interior Chinatown.\" His new comedy special, \"Love To Hate It\" starts streaming on Netflix tomorrow, December 17. We'll be back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", so I've always adopted this very nihilistic view of the job and doing it. Not nihilistic - like, I care about the job a lot. I love - it's the best job in comedy. But I adopted this very, like, live"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 63, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with comic and actor Ronny Chieng. He has a new Netflix comedy special called \"Love To Hate It\" that starts streaming tomorrow, December 17. He costars in the new Hulu series \"Interior Chinatown.\" He played an investment banker in \"Crazy Rich Asians\" and was in \"Shang-Chi And The Legend Of The Ten Rings,\" which was the first Marvel film with an Asian star. When we left off, we were talking about \"The Daily Show.\" In 2015, the year Trevor Noah became the anchor, he brought on Chieng as a field correspondent. Now Chieng is also one of the rotating anchors. After Trevor Noah left, there was a roster of celebrity comics...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", so I've always adopted this very nihilistic view of the job and doing it. Not nihilistic - like, I care about the job a lot. I love - it's the best job in comedy. But I adopted this very, like, live"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 64, "text": "...Who anchored the show. And then there was a hiatus, I guess, over the summer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 65, "text": "Yeah. Yeah, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Which we have all the time, by the way. So that's not..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 66, "text": "No, exactly. And then the correspondents started rotating...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 67, "text": "...Who anchored the show. And I wasn't sure, like, is this a temporary thing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 68, "text": "Have they decided against having one host or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 69, "text": "...One celebrity comic hosting? And it's turned out, so far, to be the real thing with the correspondents hosting, you know, anchoring. Are you at liberty to say why the decision was made to have alternating correspondents anchor as opposed to one person or one famous comic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 70, "text": "Jon Stewart, who's back on the show once a week.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Maybe it's just hard to find someone to do it. It's a tough job. I mean, I guess what I can say is I think the way it is right now, it makes sense, because Jon wants to be on..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 71, "text": "You've been in films. You're now the costar of the series \"Interior Chinatown.\" And it's a cliche that the Asian guy is the best friend.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, the legendary Jon Stewart is on once a week. And the way he described it was we as a satirical news organization, we should be trying to cover the climate instead of just chasing the weather, rig"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 72, "text": "But in a film where the main character is Asian", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 73, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 74, "text": "And much of the story is set in Chinatown.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 75, "text": "You're the best friend of the other Asian guy", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 76, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 77, "text": "Yeah. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes. But that's the beauty of the show is that we're actually making fun of these stereotypes..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 78, "text": "It's kind of a theme of the series that, you know, the main character feels just kind of invisible.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Or these tropes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 79, "text": "And he wants to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 80, "text": "He wants to be the star of his own life. So I want to play a clip from \"Interior Chinatown.\" And you and Jimmy O. Yang, the main character in the series...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 81, "text": "...You're both working at a restaurant in Chinatown and don't really like the job. You're just doing it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 82, "text": "It's very meta", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Maybe I should set up also that we are working in a restaurant in Chinatown, but we are also characters in a TV show who don't realize that we're in a TV show. So we are, on the surface, working at th"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 83, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Maybe I should set up also that we are working in a restaurant in Chinatown, but we are also characters in a TV show who don't realize that we're in a TV show. So we are, on the surface, working at th"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 84, "text": "So in this scene from the first episode, you're both in the alleyway where the dumpster is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 85, "text": "And you're both talking. And the Jimmy O. Yang character is talking about how he's like a minor character in his own life and invisible in the world. And he wants to be the main character. He wants to be the star of something. He wants to be - he wants to solve a murder mystery like they do on TV. So this is the conversation between you and Jimmy O. Yang. He speaks first.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 86, "text": "OK. That was my guest, Ronny Chieng, with Jimmy O. Yang in a scene from \"Interior Chinatown.\" In the film \"Crazy Rich Asians,\" you have a real standout scene. You're kind of a minor character in it...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Fatty Choi) I'm the [expletive]? You're the one who was hoping it was a dead person."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 87, "text": "...But it's a great scene. Does it feel qualitatively different to be in a film with an Asian-themed story and largely Asian cast?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's very complimentary of you, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 88, "text": "So correct me if I'm wrong...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "and Singapore. And so we were just hanging out, you know? We would go for karaoke. We would go for Korean barbecue. We didn't need to explain why we were going for Korean barbecue. It wasn't ethnic ea"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 89, "text": "You're third generation Malaysian?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 90, "text": "Chinese Malaysian.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, Chinese Malaysian."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 91, "text": "Yeah. So what I read is that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 92, "text": "Your parents moved to the U.S. when you were 3. You stayed with family in Malaysia or Singapore, and then you moved a year later when you were 4.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 93, "text": "Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So they came when I was 1."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 94, "text": "Did you recognize your parents?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So then, I only came here when I was 3. And then I left when I was 7, yeah. So basically, they came to America, and they left me in Malaysia for like a year and a half or something. And then when I wa"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 95, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I think - they tell me that when I saw them at the airport, I walked away because I was so pissed. But I don't remember being - you know, holding it against them."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 96, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "First of all, they were putting themselves through college. So, you know, imagine having to support two kids and themselves and college. So they were working and going to college at the same time. And"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 97, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like, that's before the internet. Who knows what's happening in Manchester, New Hampshire? They just didn't want to risk it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 98, "text": "So what was it like when they decided to move back to Malaysia?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it was easier to just take my sister."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 99, "text": "What did they end up doing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, great question. So when they moved back, they didn't tell me we were moving back. They said we were just going for a vacation. So I was like, oh, OK. So we'll go and see Malaysia and we'll come ba"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 100, "text": "My guest is comic and actor Ronny Chieng. His new comedy special, \"Love To Hate It,\" starts streaming on Netflix tomorrow. We'll be back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, they became, like, corporate executives. My mom became, like, a financial controller. My dad became, like, a general manager of factories in China. And then, you know, he would commute between Chi"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 101, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Ronny Chieng. He's a field correspondent and one of the rotating anchors on \"The Daily Show.\" He costars in the new Hulu series \"Interior Chinatown.\" And he has a new comedy special called \"Love To Hate It,\" which starts streaming on Netflix tomorrow, December 17. What was it like for you getting started in comedy in the U.S. being an immigrant and being of Chinese Malaysian descent?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, they became, like, corporate executives. My mom became, like, a financial controller. My dad became, like, a general manager of factories in China. And then, you know, he would commute between Chi"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 102, "text": "So earlier, you said that you didn't tell your parents when you were on \"The Daily Show.\" And they didn't know what \"The Daily Show\" was because they'd never seen it. It's not big in Malaysia. Did they start watching it after you felt like you were doing a decent job and they could watch it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I didn't start comedy here. I started doing stand-up comedy in Australia. So when I came here, I was already six years into comedy. If you're asking me what it's like to start again in America"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 103, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Like, literally the day after I spoke to him and I told him I was on \"The Daily Show,\" you know, he googled everything about it. And he was like, hey, you know, Jon Stewart is a big deal in Ameri"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 104, "text": "Apparently your father was very funny and prided himself on that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm like yeah, Dad, I know. That's what I was trying to tell you. And he was like, yeah, he makes a lot of money, man. This guy has multimillion-dollar contracts. I'm like yeah, yeah, comedy is a big "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 105, "text": "What kind of sense of humor did he have? Did he tell jokes or stories?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 106, "text": "You seem to have such an interesting perspective on the world and on comedy, 'cause you've lived and grown up in so many different countries...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he would - only in hindsight. Now, you know, he passed away in 2018, and I talk about this in the special. It's actually the last story I tell in the special. And only in hindsight do I realize,"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 107, "text": "...And traveled the world doing comedy, too. How helpful is that to you as a person and as a comic?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 108, "text": "Ronny Chieng, thank you so much...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can't deny that having perspective helps a little bit 'cause I have something to compare America to. So I know what's an extreme idea or what's not, you know, compared to other countries. I also kno"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 109, "text": "...For coming on our show. It's been a pleasure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-16", "guest": "Ronny Chieng", "title": "Why comic Ronny Chieng initially didn't tell his parents about his 'Daily Show' gig", "question_index": 110, "text": "Ronny Chieng's new Netflix comedy special, \"Love To Hate It, starts streaming tomorrow, December 17. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me. This is a real honor to be on the show and to speak to you. Thank you so much."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-19", "guest": "Miranda July", "title": "Miranda July talks 'All Fours' -- and the risks and rewards of changing your life", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Miranda July, was a bit afraid of what people would think of her after publishing her second novel, \"All Fours.\" The book is partly about sexuality and has some very explicit sexual scenes but that's true of many books. Her larger fear was the theme of a woman reaching midlife and entering perimenopause, the time in a woman's life when she is transitioning into menopause and is experiencing some of the many symptoms associated with that time of life. For her main character, it's the fear of losing her libido, dealing with mysterious moods and anxiety and the thought of being seen as an old woman. But the book has gotten the opposite reaction she feared. It's on many of this year's 10 best lists, including The New York Times, in which it was described as this year's literary conversation piece, and in The New Yorker, where it was described as a study of crisis - the crisis of being how middle aged changes sex, marriage and ambition. July's moving, very funny book is at once buoyant about the possibilities of starting over and clear eyed about its cost. When our critic John Powers reviewed it, he said, I gasped in surprise at \"All Fours,\" Miranda July's hilariously unpredictable novel. \"All Fours\" is sometimes described as a book about perimenopause, the transitional stage before menopause. Yet this flattens it into sociology and self-help. July's mind is far too unruly and interesting for that. John goes on to describe the book as perverse, unrepentant, sometimes dirty and often laugh-out-loud funny. \"All Fours'\" story revolves around a 45-year-old woman, a slightly famous artist, writer and performer who decides to take a break from the routines she's stuck in and drive from her home in LA to New York. Her husband thinks it's a good idea and even suggests the best route for the drive. But about 30 minutes away from home, she stops at a gas station and feels this electric connection to a young man there. And he seems to feel it, too. They end up having an affair in a motel room she rents and redecorates, and she spends the entire three weeks there. Their affair is both sexual and chaste. They're both married. He won't engage sexually, which would be disloyal to his wife. But they touch and dance, and the intentional eroticism becomes all-consuming for her. But then the three weeks are up, she returns home and has enormous trouble reentering her life as a wife and mother. Miranda July is also a filmmaker, actor, performance artist and visual artist. Miranda July, welcome to FRESH AIR. It's such a good book. I really enjoyed reading it, and I'm looking forward to talking with you about it. So you were afraid to write this book and what people would think of you. Elaborate on what your biggest fears were.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-19", "guest": "Miranda July", "title": "Miranda July talks 'All Fours' -- and the risks and rewards of changing your life", "question_index": 1, "text": "Well, one thing about getting older is I think Wikipedia has relieved the burden of that, because for most people, their birth date is on the Wikipedia page. And so you can't really hide it even if you want to anymore. And I resent the fact that women especially are supposed to hide their age. Like, why can't we own it? Why can't we proclaim it? You know, why should we have to reinforce the idea that a woman getting older is a really terrible thing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I think fear in general was also why I wrote the book. Like, upon turning 40, which was a few years before I started writing it, it seemed like this grim time was suddenly approaching that was"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-19", "guest": "Miranda July", "title": "Miranda July talks 'All Fours' -- and the risks and rewards of changing your life", "question_index": 2, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. I mean, we shouldn't have to reinforce it, for sure. But it does, like, I think people - I don't totally want to blame women when there's real repercussions, you know, economically, just in the"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-19", "guest": "Miranda July", "title": "Miranda July talks 'All Fours' -- and the risks and rewards of changing your life", "question_index": 3, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not trying to seem less ashamed."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-19", "guest": "Miranda July", "title": "Miranda July talks 'All Fours' -- and the risks and rewards of changing your life", "question_index": 4, "text": "Oh, like, oh, but you look like 35 - that kind of thing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-19", "guest": "Miranda July", "title": "Miranda July talks 'All Fours' -- and the risks and rewards of changing your life", "question_index": 5, "text": "There's a line in your book where you're buying something from an older woman. And you think about how you sometimes really hate old women. And so...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When they just sort of are like, yeah. Like, I still have that in me, despite having declared all that stuff a massive construction, you know, like, a best construction ever that we become less intere"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-19", "guest": "Miranda July", "title": "Miranda July talks 'All Fours' -- and the risks and rewards of changing your life", "question_index": 6, "text": "Oh, I'm sorry - the character.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let's not - yeah, we're going to have to decide are we saying you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-19", "guest": "Miranda July", "title": "Miranda July talks 'All Fours' -- and the risks and rewards of changing your life", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, we can get into that."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-19", "guest": "Miranda July", "title": "Miranda July talks 'All Fours' -- and the risks and rewards of changing your life", "question_index": 8, "text": "So this is where the character has gone to the hotel. She's felt this, like, erotic charge from this younger man - she's 45; he's 31 - who she met at - who she looked at, at a gas station, and he looked back at her. And then they met briefly in a diner. So she's unpacking her suitcase at this motel. And the reading is about what she's thinking as she's unpacking her clothes, and which one she's going to leave in the suitcase, and which one she's going to actually unpack and wear.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But, you know, the narrator is saying - yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-19", "guest": "Miranda July", "title": "Miranda July talks 'All Fours' -- and the risks and rewards of changing your life", "question_index": 9, "text": "Did you share a similar almost fear of older women or a dislike of them that your character has?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Yeah, so she leaves the sort of more androgynous styles in the suitcase. (Reading) I left these things in my suitcase in favor of my more overtly feminine and form-fitting clothes - heels and p"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-19", "guest": "Miranda July", "title": "Miranda July talks 'All Fours' -- and the risks and rewards of changing your life", "question_index": 10, "text": "Your character is experiencing things and fears that relate to perimenopause. But some of the things she's experiencing she doesn't know relate to perimenopause until she actually goes to her gynecologist. Was it that way for you - that you had symptoms of perimenopause that you were attributing to other things?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I was catching myself - around this time, I kept sort of noticing what I was thinking about older women and noticing the way that I might dismiss someone or not give them sort of the full bene"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-19", "guest": "Miranda July", "title": "Miranda July talks 'All Fours' -- and the risks and rewards of changing your life", "question_index": 11, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Miranda July, and her latest novel, \"All Fours,\" has been on many 10-best lists for 2024. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had a different experience from the narrator. I actually had this amazing doctor, Dr. Maggie Ney (ph), who started talking with me about it in my early 40s. I may have been just 40. And she's "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-19", "guest": "Miranda July", "title": "Miranda July talks 'All Fours' -- and the risks and rewards of changing your life", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Miranda July. Her new novel - well, it's about six months old now, but it's reappearing on many 10-best lists. It's called \"All Fours.\" So one of the things the book is about is the feeling that you need to change your life but not knowing how to do it and knowing that there will be consequences and rewards if you do. And part of the consequences will be for the other people in your life if you're leaving a marriage, if you're breaking up a home in a way that will affect your young child. And I know you've experienced similar things. And this might be too personal, but was there a lot you had to weigh before changing your life, knowing that it might be the right thing for you but there would also be consequences that everyone in your family would be facing, including you? - 'cause there - I'm sure there'd be a downside as well.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had a different experience from the narrator. I actually had this amazing doctor, Dr. Maggie Ney (ph), who started talking with me about it in my early 40s. I may have been just 40. And she's "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-19", "guest": "Miranda July", "title": "Miranda July talks 'All Fours' -- and the risks and rewards of changing your life", "question_index": 13, "text": "So this may be too personal, but please don't answer it if it is. You and your former husband - is that the right way to describe it? - lived together for a while with your child, but more as friends than as a married couple. How did that work? I think a lot of people would be curious about that because I think there are a lot of couples who separate, who remain friends, but they don't want to be romantically involved anymore. And they want more freedom outside of the home. But I could see where there'd also be a lot of discomfort and tension and nervousness around each other. So if there's anything that you can offer about how that arrangement worked out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And we were very attached to ourself and the triangle of our family. So what exactly had to change and could stay the same? I feel like it's still changing. I mean, kind of, as long as we're a famil"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-19", "guest": "Miranda July", "title": "Miranda July talks 'All Fours' -- and the risks and rewards of changing your life", "question_index": 14, "text": "My guest is Miranda July. Her novel \"All Fours\" is on many best books of the year lists. We'll talk more after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean, it is interesting. I feel a little different since the book came out. Like, I've now read so many emails and messages and comments on my Substack about women at this point, or women doin"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-19", "guest": "Miranda July", "title": "Miranda July talks 'All Fours' -- and the risks and rewards of changing your life", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with writer and filmmaker Miranda July. Her films include \"You, Me And Everyone We Know\" (ph) and \"Kajillionaire.\" Her new novel, \"All Fours,\" is on many 2024 best-of lists. It's about a woman wanting to shake up her life. She's thinking of leaving her marriage and is having a very erotic affair. When she discovers she's entering perimenopause, she fears the best part of her life may be ending and she may lose her libido. She worries about getting older. There are parallels to Miranda July's life. I want to ask you about being the parent of a nonbinary child, which is the position more and more parents seem to be in. How old is your child now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean, it is interesting. I feel a little different since the book came out. Like, I've now read so many emails and messages and comments on my Substack about women at this point, or women doin"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-19", "guest": "Miranda July", "title": "Miranda July talks 'All Fours' -- and the risks and rewards of changing your life", "question_index": 16, "text": "Yeah, so they use the pronoun they/them. What are some of the things you have to deal with as the parent of a nonbinary child in terms of - even questions like, do you want your child to take hormones? Do you want them to have a puberty block, or do they want to have it? Like, is your voice going to take precedence over theirs, or do you hope to be on the same page? Do you want to just follow what they want, knowing that they're not an adult yet, that their mind could possibly change? There's so many questions, I think, that the parents of nonbinary children have to deal with, and especially now in a world where that's being, like, demonized in politics.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Twelve."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-19", "guest": "Miranda July", "title": "Miranda July talks 'All Fours' -- and the risks and rewards of changing your life", "question_index": 17, "text": "Of course. Yeah. Have you changed a lot, having more space in your life on your own? - because I would imagine you co-parent with your former husband and that you don't have your child every day to take care of. And in some ways, that's a real loss, and in other ways, it gains you some independence and personal time. And I wonder what that shift in time and that shift in the balance of independence versus having somebody dependent on you all the time has changed you, for better or worse - has changed your life - or for better and worse.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Point taken. And then I just went with they/them. And I - there's maybe one point in the book where it's kind of acknowledged that, potentially, it's the same hormones, that the narrator is taking e"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-19", "guest": "Miranda July", "title": "Miranda July talks 'All Fours' -- and the risks and rewards of changing your life", "question_index": 18, "text": "My guest is Miranda July. Her latest novel is called \"All Fours.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Like, it's really - like, you really have to stop and think when you have that time alone where you're not responsible. Like, what actually am I doing here in this life? Like, what do I feel? Like, "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-19", "guest": "Miranda July", "title": "Miranda July talks 'All Fours' -- and the risks and rewards of changing your life", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with writer and filmmaker Miranda July. Her latest novel, \"All Fours,\" is on many best-of-the-year book lists. So I want to talk about your formative years. You gravitated toward punk as a teenager. And what drew you to it? And what were your first experiences listening to punk rock or, you know, going to clubs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Like, it's really - like, you really have to stop and think when you have that time alone where you're not responsible. Like, what actually am I doing here in this life? Like, what do I feel? Like, "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-19", "guest": "Miranda July", "title": "Miranda July talks 'All Fours' -- and the risks and rewards of changing your life", "question_index": 20, "text": "You actually moved to Portland to be part of the riot grrrl scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I think I wasn't ever, like - I'm not, like, a music head. So the thing that drew me to punk, especially as a teenager, was, first of all, it was an all-ages scene. Like, the clubs - like, I c"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-19", "guest": "Miranda July", "title": "Miranda July talks 'All Fours' -- and the risks and rewards of changing your life", "question_index": 21, "text": "One of the jobs that you had early on while trying to support yourself, I guess, while you were doing your art was working at a peep show. How and why did you get that job?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I moved to Portland to be with my girlfriend at the time, and riot grrrl kind of had just happened. I'd say I sort of missed it slightly. But certainly, the - like, the feminist underpinning was"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-19", "guest": "Miranda July", "title": "Miranda July talks 'All Fours' -- and the risks and rewards of changing your life", "question_index": 22, "text": "And you're separated by glass, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Initially - let's see. My girlfriend and I broke up. She moved out. We had to cover her rent, and I remember my friend at the time like, how are we going to get this money really quickly, you know, th"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-19", "guest": "Miranda July", "title": "Miranda July talks 'All Fours' -- and the risks and rewards of changing your life", "question_index": 23, "text": "What did you learn doing that about sexuality or about men, about yourself, about what it means to get really turned on looking at somebody who's basically on exhibit behind glass?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-19", "guest": "Miranda July", "title": "Miranda July talks 'All Fours' -- and the risks and rewards of changing your life", "question_index": 24, "text": "Were you able to see the peep show as a form of performance?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean, my main goal was to make as, you know, much money - it still wasn't that much, but to make this amount of money in a short time so I could work on my - you know, what ended up being, lik"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-19", "guest": "Miranda July", "title": "Miranda July talks 'All Fours' -- and the risks and rewards of changing your life", "question_index": 25, "text": "I have one more peep show question. So when men were staring at you and telling you their sexual fantasies, did you find it at all flattering or really creepy? Like, what was your experience of that watching them? Like, they're there to watch you, but you're watching them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No, I don't think - I thought of it as my job, my not-great job that was - I think when I quit that job, I started working unlocking car doors for a company called Pop-A-Lock. You know, when you l"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-19", "guest": "Miranda July", "title": "Miranda July talks 'All Fours' -- and the risks and rewards of changing your life", "question_index": 26, "text": "Like, I don't know if even me (ph)...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, at the time, like, for some context, like, I was lesbian. I had, like, very, I think, like, bleached out, short hair, and I would wear a wig that was, like, my normal, pretty girl wig that was"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-19", "guest": "Miranda July", "title": "Miranda July talks 'All Fours' -- and the risks and rewards of changing your life", "question_index": 27, "text": "You think you're looking at me. You're not - that kind of thing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-19", "guest": "Miranda July", "title": "Miranda July talks 'All Fours' -- and the risks and rewards of changing your life", "question_index": 28, "text": "I don't know.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Just, like - yeah. And I could see exactly how - like, I remember at the - at Mary's knowing that there was, like - that there was a kind of guy - like, if I put on - what's the song? Like, (sin"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-19", "guest": "Miranda July", "title": "Miranda July talks 'All Fours' -- and the risks and rewards of changing your life", "question_index": 29, "text": "That's Van Morrison. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"In Your Eyes,\" I think it's called - that that would really just be like, oh, my God. Like, this song, which is so great, and this girl - you know, like, that that would sort of generate this, like, "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-19", "guest": "Miranda July", "title": "Miranda July talks 'All Fours' -- and the risks and rewards of changing your life", "question_index": 30, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Even though I don't have brown eyes - that it, like, cultivated a feeling of, like, just a brown-eyed girl up here, you know, like, girl-next-door kind of feeling and that that was another thing"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-19", "guest": "Miranda July", "title": "Miranda July talks 'All Fours' -- and the risks and rewards of changing your life", "question_index": 31, "text": "What were some of the conversations that you know about about your book that you found most interesting? Like, what were some of the themes that you're glad your book provoked - you know, the themes and the conversations?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Or in Mr. Peeps."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-19", "guest": "Miranda July", "title": "Miranda July talks 'All Fours' -- and the risks and rewards of changing your life", "question_index": 32, "text": "Well, I look forward to your next book. Thank you so much for being on our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, the things that make me most happy to read are, like, women who, while they were reading the book, felt kind of exposed. Like, oh, no, this is, like, my whole inner life exposed here in this b"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-19", "guest": "Miranda July", "title": "Miranda July talks 'All Fours' -- and the risks and rewards of changing your life", "question_index": 33, "text": "Miranda July's latest novel is called \"All Fours.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much, Terry."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-20", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To make 'The Godfather' his way, Francis Ford Coppola waged a studio battle", "question_index": 0, "text": "But you won. How did you win?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's true that Mario had always liked the idea of Brando. But, you know, Mario was often at Bay Shore. He was not really on the scene so much as - even a lot of my work with him was my sending h"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-20", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To make 'The Godfather' his way, Francis Ford Coppola waged a studio battle", "question_index": 1, "text": "So did he do the movie for free?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know? So at least they were saying if I did three things - have a screen test, if I could get him to do the movie for nothing, and if I could have him put up a million dollars, which is absurd. "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-20", "guest": "Salvatore Corsitto", "title": "To make 'The Godfather' his way, Francis Ford Coppola waged a studio battle", "question_index": 2, "text": "So you played this kind of little trick. And he did improv on - or whatever on film for you. What did he bring to that audition that he didn't realize was an audition?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I called him up and I said to Marlon, Marlon, you know, of course this is an Italian American. You know, wouldn't it be fun if we could, like, do a little experiment and kind of improv and see wha"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "A Jon Batiste holiday jam session", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Christmas has inspired some great songs in every genre and some really bad ones. Today, we'll hear some great ones. We'll start with Jon Batiste at the piano, playing, singing and talking about some of his favorites. It's Part 2 of the session we recently recorded with him. Batiste was the band leader and music director of \"The Late Show With Stephen Colbert\" from its premiere in 2015 until 2022. That same year, his album \"We Are\" received 11 Grammy nominations in seven different categories and won five Grammys, including album of the year. His new album, \"Beethoven Blues,\" features his reimaginings of Beethoven compositions. He also wrote the score for this year's film \"Saturday Night,\" about the first SNL broadcast, and he appears in the film as musician Billy Preston, the first musical guest. A documentary about Batiste called \"American Symphony\" is now nominated for a Grammy for best music film, and Batiste is nominated for best song written for visual media. Here's the interview. So as we speak, Christmas is coming up soon. And I don't know how you feel about Christmas music. In my opinion, like, some of it is just, like, really fun. Some of it is kind of transcendent. And some of it is so irritating, causing, like, the worst earworms.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "A Jon Batiste holiday jam session", "question_index": 1, "text": "And, like, just like, please, don't play that again", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "A Jon Batiste holiday jam session", "question_index": 2, "text": ". I never want to hear that again. So what's your take on Christmas songs?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "A Jon Batiste holiday jam session", "question_index": 3, "text": "Charlie Brown.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I mean... (PIANO PLAYING)"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "A Jon Batiste holiday jam session", "question_index": 4, "text": "Those are both - yeah, aren't those both from Vince Guaraldi's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Christmas Time Is Here.\""}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "A Jon Batiste holiday jam session", "question_index": 5, "text": "...\"A Charlie Brown Christmas\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, Vince Guaraldi."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "A Jon Batiste holiday jam session", "question_index": 6, "text": "Is there a hymn that you especially love...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "than Christmas music. But that soundtrack, that album really changed me a lot. A lot of that influence comes into my music."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "A Jon Batiste holiday jam session", "question_index": 7, "text": "...That's kind of Christmas-oriented? And could you play and sing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "A Jon Batiste holiday jam session", "question_index": 8, "text": "\"God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen\"? (PIANO PLAYING)", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Whew. You know that one?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "A Jon Batiste holiday jam session", "question_index": 9, "text": "That's \"Greensleeves,\" isn't it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know that one?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "A Jon Batiste holiday jam session", "question_index": 10, "text": "You know, it's funny, like, \"What Child Is This?\" that you just played and when you played \"God Rest Ye Merry Gentlemen,\" I never heard it as kind of minor key and dark as you played it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Similar type of melodies. You know, that sound is so - it reminds me of bells ringing in the dead of night on Christmas Eve and just snowfall. And there's a majesty to that. There's a majesty to that "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "A Jon Batiste holiday jam session", "question_index": 11, "text": "Yeah. Me, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I like it like that. I don't know."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "A Jon Batiste holiday jam session", "question_index": 12, "text": "I don't know that. What is it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Whoa."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "A Jon Batiste holiday jam session", "question_index": 13, "text": "What was church like for you when you were growing up? In a Catholic family, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's (singing) \"O Come, O Come, Emmanuel.\" I grew up with those, too. That's amazing, that those songs just have that same sound."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "A Jon Batiste holiday jam session", "question_index": 14, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is multiple Grammy Award winner Jon Batiste. He's joining us at the piano. His latest album is called \"Beethoven Blues.\" More after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know when in my life or when I would have the setup to do that, but I want to participate in some sort of ritual in service to the Creator, where I'm composing and sharing that music, just lik"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "A Jon Batiste holiday jam session", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with multiple Grammy Award-winning pianist, composer and singer Jon Batiste. He's at the piano playing some of his favorite Christmas songs. My two favorite Christmas songs - one of them is secular, and one of them is more, you know, about Christmas and about Jesus. So the secular one is \"Have Yourself A Merry Little Christmas\" from the film \"Meet Me In St. Louis.\" And, you know, you were talking about, like, sounding like church bells before. The opening chords of this are so church bells. And the more religious song is \"O Holy Night,\" which I think is just such a beautiful song. Could you play either or even both?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know when in my life or when I would have the setup to do that, but I want to participate in some sort of ritual in service to the Creator, where I'm composing and sharing that music, just lik"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "A Jon Batiste holiday jam session", "question_index": 16, "text": "Yeah. And it's the part - the by next year part is a part that sounds like church bells - the chords there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah, yeah. (Playing piano, singing) Have yourself a merry little Christmas. Let your heart be light. Next year, all our troubles will be out of sight. That one, right?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "A Jon Batiste holiday jam session", "question_index": 17, "text": "And a great line in it, too, is until then we'll have to muddle through some how.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) By next year. Yes. (Playing piano, vocalizing) Wow, dude. Terry, you've got a ear. You hear that? Terry, that's it. (Playing piano, singing) By next year, our troubles will be out of sight. "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "A Jon Batiste holiday jam session", "question_index": 18, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Muddling. That's the one I was thinking, OK."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "A Jon Batiste holiday jam session", "question_index": 19, "text": "Nicely done.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Playing piano, singing) Some day soon, we all will be together, if the fates allow. Until then, we'll have to muddle through somehow. So have yourself a merry little Christmas now."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "A Jon Batiste holiday jam session", "question_index": 20, "text": "Do you like \"O Holy Night\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a great one. I'm just remembering these - this beautiful stuff."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "A Jon Batiste holiday jam session", "question_index": 21, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, yeah. That's (singing) o holy night. The stars are brightly shining. It is a night idea of our dear savior's birth. Long lay the world in sin and error pining till he appeared and the soul f"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "A Jon Batiste holiday jam session", "question_index": 22, "text": "Yeah. That's more Beethoven. (PLAYING PIANO)", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah. I remember. I'm trying to remember. (Playing piano) That song reminds me of..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "A Jon Batiste holiday jam session", "question_index": 23, "text": "That's one of the Beethoven things that you reimagine on your new \"Beethoven Blues\" album.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah. I remember. I'm trying to remember. (Playing piano) That song reminds me of..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "A Jon Batiste holiday jam session", "question_index": 24, "text": "Oh, good. It is the night part, that descending line, I think that has so much drama in it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But that's reminds me... (Playing piano, singing) O holy night. The stars are brightly shining. Like, this is what I'll do. I'm hearing, like, the symmetry of both of those melodies. (Playing piano, v"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "A Jon Batiste holiday jam session", "question_index": 25, "text": "Just, like, the musical line.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "A Jon Batiste holiday jam session", "question_index": 26, "text": "That's the other drama part, the fall on your knees. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes. What's the part on the bridge? (Playing piano, singing) Fall on your knees."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "A Jon Batiste holiday jam session", "question_index": 27, "text": "That - it gives me chills.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's one of my favorite progressions. You got the one chord. (Playing piano) And then you go to the 3 - one, two, three. Ooh. That transition. (Playing piano, singing) Fall on your knees."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "A Jon Batiste holiday jam session", "question_index": 28, "text": "Since I made so many suggestions on what to play, I'd like you to choose the last piece. And whether you want it to be a Christmas song or a Beethoven composition or anything else, whatever mood you feel like playing. Is that too wide open for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "A Jon Batiste holiday jam session", "question_index": 29, "text": "OK. (PIANO PLAYING)", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "A Jon Batiste holiday jam session", "question_index": 30, "text": "Wow. Oh, that was wonderful. And so it started with Beethoven's \"Moonlight Sonata,\" went to what I think is probably an original song that I'm not familiar with and then into Leonard Cohen's \"Hallelujah.\" Beautifully done, beautiful connections in there. What was the middle piece that I didn't recognize?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Hallelujah, hallelujah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "A Jon Batiste holiday jam session", "question_index": 31, "text": "That is beautiful. Thank you for being so generous and so interesting and illustrating so much music for us. I so appreciate it. And I also wish you a merry Christmas.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that's a piece entitled \"Don't Stop.\" It was the final track from my first album, \"Hollywood Africans.\""}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "A Jon Batiste holiday jam session", "question_index": 32, "text": "Oh, gosh, thank you. Jon Batiste joined us at the piano from the studios of WNYC in New York. We thank them. This was the second part of my session with Jon Batiste. You can find the first part on our podcast or website. His latest album, \"Beethoven Blues,\" features his reimaginings of Beethoven music. After we take a short break, Questlove will play recordings from the Christmas playlist he put together for us. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you so much. It's a pleasure every time. Thank you very much for your gift to the world and for who you are. Much love."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Jon Batiste", "title": "A Jon Batiste holiday jam session", "question_index": 33, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you so much. It's a pleasure every time. Thank you very much for your gift to the world and for who you are. Much love."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. It's become a new FRESH AIR holiday tradition to invite musicians we love to play some of their favorite Christmas songs. It started two years ago when Ahmir \"Questlove\" Thompson put together a Christmas playlist for us and talked about why he chose those songs. Last year, David Byrne played his favorite Christmas songs. We'll listen back to that tomorrow. We continued that tradition earlier in the show with Jon Batiste at the piano. Now we're going to listen back to Questlove and his Christmas playlist. In addition to his many credits, Questlove is perhaps the most famous, popular and in-demand DJ. Questlove co-founded the band The Roots, which, among other things, is the house band for \"The Tonight Show With Jimmy Fallon.\" He's also written several books related to music, including one published earlier this year called \"Hip-Hop Is History.\" He won an Oscar for his documentary \"Summer Of Soul,\" about the 1969 Harlem Cultural Festival. His new documentary, \"Sly Lives! (AKA The Burden Of Black Genius), about Sly Stone will premiere next month at the Sundance Film Festival. On January 27, NBC will broadcast Questlove's new documentary called \"Ladies & Gentlemen... 50 Years Of SNL Music.\" It will also stream on Peacock.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 1, "text": "Questlove, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Thanks so much for doing this and choosing music for us. Why don't we start with a song that you selected. And this is a song by DRAM and his mother. And it's \"Silver Bells.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 2, "text": "And I have to tell you, there's so much really schlocky Christmas music. And that's why we're so excited to have you on the show doing this, 'cause you're choosing really interesting stuff.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 3, "text": "So the song \"Silver Bells\" is kind of high on my list of just, you know, schlocky and just annoying. It's one of the reasons I don't like a lot of Christmas songs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 4, "text": "This is a great recording. So tell us about the recording and why you chose it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 5, "text": "Let's hear it. Here we go. So this is \"Silver Bells\" - a good version of it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's a very unique recording. DRAM is kind of the post-neo soul set, like, one of the artists that I really dig his work. He has a really soulful voice. When I listen to music, I like rawness. I"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 6, "text": "When you were growing up and you were touring with your father's band, did you spend a lot of Christmases performing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Soon it will be Christmas Day."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 7, "text": "Well, let's get to another song on your playlist. And this is \"Disco Claus,\" which is by The Bionic I.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Like, we would often have Christmases in very unusual places. Probably one of the best places ever - there was a resort in San Juan, Puerto Rico, called the Dupont Plaza. And my father would do "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 8, "text": "And it sounds more like funk Santa than disco Claus.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 9, "text": "OK. Let's hear it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is. You know, there's these two really influential DJs that have really inspired my DJ career. They're from the Boston area. They're called Amir and Kon. And those guys, like, they're the DJ that, "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 10, "text": "That's \"Disco Claus\" by Bionic, one of the songs chosen for us by Questlove. You've said that as a creator, you're 98% groove and 2% melody. And the track you just played is very much groove.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Rapping) It was the night before Christmas when all through the pad, not a record was spinning. Things really looked bad. (Singing) Disco Claus came into town, funking all the toys around. Susie Q an"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 11, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very much so, yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 12, "text": "\"Little Drummer Boy\" is one of the Christmas songs - the original recording of it - that just really, really drove me crazy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, drums are - that's my calling card, you know? And for me, there's a lot of really obscure Christmas records that might, like - they'll do their version of, like, \"Little Drummer Boy\" or someth"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 13, "text": "Oh, yeah. They played it so much on the radio when I was growing up. And yet - tell me you like it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 14, "text": "Oh, because you were the drummer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's hard to escape it. Yeah, all throughout, like, first and second grade, like, every Christmas pageant, I think it was expected that I was supposed to play little drummer boy."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 15, "text": "Oh, no.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because I was a drummer. Right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 16, "text": "Oh, boy. Well, let's hear a song that's lyrically the opposite of \"It's The Most Happiest Time Of The Year.\" So this is James Brown's \"Santa Claus, Santa Claus\" from 1968.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly, exactly. But, you know, oftentimes in school at the Christmas pageant, even if it were, like, something totally the opposite, like, our production of \"The Nutcracker\" or something like that, "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is so hilarious to me."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 18, "text": "Why is it hilarious to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sorry."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 19, "text": "Wait a minute. Wait a minute. Wait a minute. So the first time you heard a Christmas song...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This song - this particular song is my - one, this is my introduction to Christmas music. Two, it's my introduction to James Brown."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 20, "text": "...And the first time you hear James Brown was this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. I know."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 21, "text": "Yeah. He's asking Santa and the Lord, why does he have to suffer so? So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. My first James Brown was this. No, it was just that - you know what it is? You know, I was a kid of the Muppets era. And there was a tortured genius musician on \"Sesame Street,\" and his name was"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 22, "text": "All right. Let's hear it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is James Brown from 1968.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 24, "text": "That was James Brown from 1968. I'm still processing that this is, like, your introduction to James Brown.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I've wanted so many things I wanted so, but you experience the wants when you live in the ghetto. But now I understand what it means to be a man, so there's one thing I'd like to know. I've "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Questlove, and he'll play more Christmas recordings after we take a short break. This is fresh air.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. See; after that, then I wanted to hear all the songs where he's, like, screaming and crying."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 2022 interview with Questlove, who played recordings from the Christmas playlist he put together for us. He's cofounder of the hip-hop band The Roots, the house band for \"The Tonight Show With Jimmy Fallon.\" He won an Oscar for his documentary \"Summer Of Soul.\" He's written several books about music, including his latest, \"Hip-Hop Is History.\" And he was a producer of the original cast recording of \"Hamilton\" and much more, some of which we'll talk about a little bit later. Right now let's get back to some Christmas music. This is another very unusual recording with a story behind it. It's called \"Santa Claus Is A Black Man,\" and it's by Akim and Teddy Vann from 1917.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. See; after that, then I wanted to hear all the songs where he's, like, screaming and crying."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 27, "text": "Yeah, Teddy Vann, her father. And she was - what? - 5 when she recorded this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Teddy Vann, her father. Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 28, "text": "Oh, oh. Well, apparently Teddy Vann, Akim's father...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "on Hot 97. This is, like, in the '90s. She had a Christmas-themed show once. And I remember they played this song called \"Santa Claus Is A Black Man.\" And I called the station and just left a note lik"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 29, "text": "...Wrote one of Luther Vandross' hits?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 30, "text": "Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I could see why. OK, I could see why he was singing backup on this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, \"Power Of Love.\" Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 31, "text": "OK. All right. So you loved about this song what?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 32, "text": "He looked just like you, Daddy", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I just love the absolute innocence of it. Like, similar to \"I Saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus.\" This is Christmas through the eyes of a child who - you know, the whole point is that kids don't kno"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 33, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I just love the absolute innocence of it. Like, similar to \"I Saw Mommy Kissing Santa Claus.\" This is Christmas through the eyes of a child who - you know, the whole point is that kids don't kno"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 34, "text": "Yeah, that he's dressed as Santa Claus. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...That her dad is actually Santa Claus, so it's a cute song."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 35, "text": "So let's hear.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 36, "text": "We're listening to my 2022 interview with Questlove. We'll hear more music from his Christmas playlist after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Hey, you want to hear something that's out of sight? You know what I found out last night? It's when Mama turned out the light. I went in the living room to see what the noise that woke up m"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 37, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded in 2022 with Ahmir Questlove Thompson playing songs from the Christmas playlist he put together for us in 2022.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Hey, you want to hear something that's out of sight? You know what I found out last night? It's when Mama turned out the light. I went in the living room to see what the noise that woke up m"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 38, "text": "So let's get to Stevie Wonder. I know you love Stevie Wonder, and he's in your film", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Hey, you want to hear something that's out of sight? You know what I found out last night? It's when Mama turned out the light. I went in the living room to see what the noise that woke up m"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 39, "text": "...Performing in \"Summer Of Soul.\" And this is a promotional disc from Britain. It's a kind of Christmas Greetings song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 40, "text": "Christmas greetings message - it's not even a whole song. So tell us about the origin of this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 41, "text": "OK, here's Stevie Wonder.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "you know why I chose this? Stevie Wonder is world famous for his unique jingles for radio stations. You know, if you search the internet high and low, you can find some that he's done over the years a"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 42, "text": "I wish I could hear more of that, but I guess there isn't more of that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hi, this is Stevie Wonder. On behalf of the Motown family, I'd like to say (singing) happy holiday from all of us to you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 43, "text": "Do you think he did these promotional recordings because he wanted to or because the record company urged him to? Or because it would, like, get him more airplay?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very brief. Sometimes, you know, you can make a point in 26 seconds. I mean, look at the Ramones. They made a life-changing record, and not one song is over two minutes. So, you know, I think more art"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 44, "text": "So I'd like to close with another song. And I'm thinking, like, do you have a favorite - and I guess I'll get a little churchy here. Do you have a favorite, like, real Christmas song that is, say, like, a gospel song? Because I know you love Mahalia Jackson - she's in \"Summer Of Soul.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "just maximizing on your appeal. And Stevie Wonder had the means and the technology to just knock this all out. So, you know, I can imagine that this level of creativity was his bread and butter."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 45, "text": "And Mavis Staples. So is there a song, like, from that tradition that you'd like to end with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 46, "text": "Oh, thank you for choosing that. Questlove, it's always such a great treat when you're on our show. Thank you so much for choosing music for us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, there's so many to choose from. I will say, though, there's a rendition of \"Silent Night\" that's done by The Temptations. It's their '73 version with Dennis Edwards singing lead vocals. And "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 47, "text": "Yeah. It's just always such a pleasure to have you on our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-23", "guest": "Dram And Bigbabymom", "title": "'Fresh Air' presents: Christmas with Questlove", "question_index": 48, "text": "Questlove is a founding member of the band the Roots and the band's drummer. They're the house band for \"The Tonight Show With Jimmy Fallon.\" Next month, his documentary about Sly Stone, called \"Sly Lives! (AKA The Burden Of Black Genius)\", will premiere at the Sundance Film Festival. And his documentary about music from \"Saturday Night Live,\" called \"Ladies & Gentlemen... 50 Years of SNL Music,\" will be broadcast January 27 on NBC, and then will stream on Peacock. You can find Questlove's complete Christmas playlist on our website, freshair.npr.org, or in the show notes on the podcast. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll listen back to the interview I recorded one year ago in which David Byrne, cofounder and front man of the band Talking Heads, played us some of his favorite Christmas songs. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Marie Baldonado, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our cohost is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "'Twas the night before Christmas. And all through the house, not a creature was stirring, not even a mouse. (Singing) In my mind, I want you to be free. For all of our friends, would to listen to me? "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. It\u2019s becoming a FRESH AIR tradition that for Christmas, we ask someone who\u2019s deep into music and whose work we love to choose some of their favorite Christmas recordings. We started this two years ago with Questlove. Yesterday, we featured Jon Batiste at the piano, singing and playing some Christmas songs. Today we feature David Byrne and his Christmas playlist, which we recorded last Christmas. Byrne is, of course, a founder and the front man of Talking Heads, which was a seminal new wave band in the '70s and '80s, although calling the band new wave and punk doesn't describe how unique they were or how they expanded out from the stripped-down music they began playing. Byrne also founded the music label Luaka Bop, which releases music of different genres from the U.S. and around the world. The restored version of the Talking Heads' 1984 concert film \"Stop Making Sense\" was released last year. It's widely considered to be one of the best concert films. Byrne also created the Broadway shows \"American Utopia\" and \"Here Lies Love.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 1, "text": "David Byrne, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Happy holidays. So great to have you back.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 2, "text": "So I want to start by asking you what are the criteria that you used to compile this list?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Happy holidays. Good to be back."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 3, "text": "Yeah, and we got some songs about that, too, that you've chosen", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wanted to not take it too seriously. Not too seriously, the Christmas list, and have fun. So when I'm putting together these kind of playlists for friends or whatever, I'm thinking I want them to ju"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wanted to not take it too seriously. Not too seriously, the Christmas list, and have fun. So when I'm putting together these kind of playlists for friends or whatever, I'm thinking I want them to ju"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 5, "text": "Fear not, there will be some sad songs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. We have that, too. We do have that."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 6, "text": "All right. I want to start with something from your list that I really love that I hadn't heard before, 'cause I wanted to get off to a really strong start. So we're starting with a song that you wrote and recorded called \"Fat Man's Comin'.\" Now, most Santa Claus songs are so ho-ho-ho cheery. This one is, like, high drama. It sounds like the theme song for an opening, like, dramatic film. Tell me how and why you wrote this song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. We have that, too. We do have that."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yes", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, continuing on from our previous..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, continuing on from our previous..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 9, "text": "It sounds more like a home invasion", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Conversation, I sometimes have a tendency to take things a little bit literally. So I looked at the whole Santa phenomenon and said, well, what if I just describe this exactly as what's happening. "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Conversation, I sometimes have a tendency to take things a little bit literally. So I looked at the whole Santa phenomenon and said, well, what if I just describe this exactly as what's happening. "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 11, "text": "Absolutely. Let's hear it. This is David Byrne's \"Fat Man's Comin'.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes. The arrangement gives it the appropriate mood."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 12, "text": "So that was David Byrne's song \"Fat Man's Comin'\" with David, of course, singing lead and an orchestration by Jherek Bischoff. I really love that. I hope you do more of that kind of, like, high drama song with Jherek Bischoff...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Coming from the land of the ice and snow, a roly-poly man in the dark, he's riding. Everybody knows that he's out there now. Everybody knows that the fat man's coming. His hair is white as t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 13, "text": "...Orchestrations. OK, so the next song we should play from your playlist is The Pogues' song \"Fairytale Of New York.\" And the front man of The Pogues, Shane MacGowan, died very recently, so we should just acknowledge him and play this song. It's a great song. I know it's a favorite of a lot of people. Tell us why you chose this and what the song means to you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 14, "text": "And she's accusing him of all these promises that he made to her about how great New York would be. And they're all broken promises. It's not been great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a great song. He's a great songwriter. It's a duet with Kirsty MacColl, somebody that I've worked with on a couple of records, and it's incredibly moving. It kind of brings you to tears every tim"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 15, "text": "So let's hear it. This is The Pogues, \"Fairytale Of New York,\" recorded in 1987.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But it's - the way he's telling this, the things she's accusing him of, he's sort of singing about himself and his, you know, unreliability and drunkenness and everything else. So yeah, it's very movi"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 16, "text": "Yeah, 'cause he's in jail because he was drunk in public. Yeah. So I don't think there were, like, bitter Christmas songs like this when you were growing up. I know there wasn't when I was growing up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God. It's, like, heartbreaking from the first verse."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 17, "text": "Was Talking Heads ever asked to do a Christmas album?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It was during the '60s and '70s, I think, that I remember there being songs that sort of criticize Christmas, as far as talking about inequality and the emphasis on consumerism and things like that."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 18, "text": "And did you ever release a Christmas album on your label, Luaka Bop?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no. No one thought of that."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 19, "text": "That will only be viable for a month.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no. On one hand, Christmas songs are perennial. If you do one that people like, as we all know, every year you hear it again. It starts getting played again and again and again for a few weeks, an"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yeah, yeah. OK, so moving on. We've got another song about Christmas in the city. And this is a classic. This is one of those songs that does get played every Christmas. And it's James Brown's \"Santa Claus Go Straight To The Ghetto.\" Tell us why you chose this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, only viable for a month and then will be completely forgotten."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 21, "text": "Yeah, you could easily dance to this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a classic. And this was during the period where James Brown was actually starting to make some social commentary in some of his songs. But even though he's making this kind of pointed commentary "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 22, "text": "Yeah. All right, so here's James Brown's \"Santa Claus Go Straight To The Ghetto.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 23, "text": "That was \"Santa Claus Go Straight To The Ghetto,\" one of the recordings - the Christmas recordings that David Byrne has brought with him today to play for us. So, yeah, that's a great recording. You brought several songs that are pretty sad and depressing Christmas songs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Santa Claus, go straight to the ghetto. Hitch up your reindeer and go straight to the ghetto. Santa Claus, go straight to the ghetto. Fill every stocking you find. The kids are going to love"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 24, "text": "Yeah. What's hard for you about the holidays? Or what was hard for you about the holidays?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The holidays are hard."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 25, "text": "By choice or by...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've had holidays where I've been completely alone."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 26, "text": "No.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 27, "text": "Yeah. This is a great recording. I hadn't heard it before, so I'm really glad you brought it. So here's LCD Soundsystem with James Murphy, \"Christmas Will Break Your Heart.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not exactly by choice. It wasn't like, oh, I don't want to see anyone. It was just like everybody was gone, and I was left eating a turkey TV dinner. Sounds like I'm really pulling at the heartstrings"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 28, "text": "Not many Christmas songs have Christmas will crush your soul in the lyrics.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 29, "text": "But it's a great song. I really like it a lot.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 30, "text": "Do you often feel like everyone else is having a better time than you are on Christmas? I mean, I certainly...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And James doesn't sing that often, so it's a nice thing."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 31, "text": "I've certainly felt that way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not so much anymore, but I used to feel like that."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 32, "text": "Do you ever perform on Christmas?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I used to feel like, oh, there's this - look, they really are getting the kind of all the joy. And they're going to parties and whatever they're doing. I thought, I'm not sure I'm totally down with al"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 33, "text": "It gets you off the hook of having to have a good time", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I have. And then on New Year's Eve, I've done that. Those are - especially New Year's Eve - can be a very lucrative performance date."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I have. And then on New Year's Eve, I've done that. Those are - especially New Year's Eve - can be a very lucrative performance date."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 35, "text": "Yeah. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. You just go, OK, that's done. I provided the entertainment."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 36, "text": "The next song I want to play, David, is, I think, the saddest Christmas song I've ever heard. It doesn't get much sadder than this. And this is a Prince Christmas song called \"Another Lonely Christmas.\" You want to tell us about why you chose this one? Oh, to cheer us up", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And now, yes, I'll have a drink and go home. Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 37, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And now, yes, I'll have a drink and go home. Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 38, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, this is to cheer everyone up. Wow. Yeah, Prince is amazing."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 39, "text": "And he's alone because his girlfriend died on Christmas Day several years ago.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And yeah, I thought, wait a minute, didn't he do a Christmas song? Yeah, but he gave it the twist of being, like, incredibly sad Christmas song, echoing LCD Soundsystem and some of the others. It's ki"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 40, "text": "And you find that out deeper in the song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 41, "text": "Yeah. Yeah. But he sounds so good on this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yes, he's milking it there."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 42, "text": "OK. So if you're in the mood for a sad Christmas song, David Byrne has one for you. And here it is, Prince's \"Another Lonely Christmas.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. He really gives it - it's a real vocal workout."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 43, "text": "So I asked him about one of the songs he chose, \"Who Took the Merry Out of Christmas,\" by The Staple Singers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Last night, I spent another lonely Christmas. Darling, darling, you should've been there 'cause, you see, of all the ones I dream about, you are the one that makes my love shout. You see, yo"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 44, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Staples are basically a gospel group. They had secular hits, but they come out of the gospel and the civil rights tradition. And so here they're talking about who took the merry out of Christmas, "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 45, "text": "That is really catchy. Yeah. Thank you for bringing that. Did you spend any Christmases in church?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Who took the merry out of Christmas? People all over the world forgot about merry. Too busy fighting wars, trying to make it to Mars, searching for light and can't seem to find the right sta"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 46, "text": "What music was it? Was it, like, guitar", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I probably did. My parents went to church when I was young. At one point, I remember they went to a Methodist church, which didn't have a lot of singing. And then they switched over to Unitarian. "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 47, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I probably did. My parents went to church when I was young. At one point, I remember they went to a Methodist church, which didn't have a lot of singing. And then they switched over to Unitarian. "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 48, "text": "There was that period in church when it was, like, very folky.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it wasn't. It could've been, actually..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 49, "text": "So moving on. This is, like, an anxiety Christmas song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, there was that period. This was not that. This was going the other way. They had, like, full-on choirs and classical musicians playing. I mean, it was kind of incredible."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 50, "text": "It's Paul Simon, \"Getting Ready For Christmas Day.\" Tell us why this one's on your list.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, there was that period. This was not that. This was going the other way. They had, like, full-on choirs and classical musicians playing. I mean, it was kind of incredible."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 51, "text": "His nephew.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Couple of reasons. I'm a Paul Simon fan, especially his more recent records. I don't know - the last five records or so, I think, are some of the best things he's ever done. To my understanding, they'"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 52, "text": "And musically, this is another really, like, danceable song, sounds like it\u2019s going to be a joyful, upbeat song. But lyrically, it's the opposite.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, nephew got deployed to Iraq and all of these other things. Quite sobering thoughts, but those are the kinds of things that people think about during the holidays."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 53, "text": "Theres a sample in the song which...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That's kind of what he does, though, have these perky, peppy songs sometimes. And then kind of the lyrics undercut it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 54, "text": "I read on a website - and I can\u2019t vouch for whether this is true or not. But according to that website, the sample was recorded in 1941 at the last sermon by prewar American Christian preacher and gospel singer Reverend J.M. Gates.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There\u2019s a lot of samples in the song."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 55, "text": "Is he? Yeah, I\u2019m not familiar with him. So this may or may not be true. I hesitate as a journalist to put this question mark on the air. But that\u2019s what it says on this website. It\u2019s a song website.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, he\u2019s a well-known preacher, too"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 56, "text": "OK. Should we hear it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 57, "text": "OK. Here's Paul Simon, \"Getting Ready For Christmas.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 58, "text": "A kind of really contradictory song again between the joyfulness of the music and the sadness and anxiety of the lyric. That was Paul Simon, \"Getting Ready For Christmas.\" So we have another, like, Christmas heartbreak song here. And this is Alexander 23 and Laufey. So tell us about them and why you chose this song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Getting ready for Christmas Day. Done made it up in your mind that I'm going to New York, Philadelphia, Chicago..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 59, "text": "But much sadder.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know Alexander 23. I'm familiar with Laufey. She's Icelandic and does songs that sound like they were written before the rock 'n' roll era. It's kind of like a throwback to the kind of older s"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 60, "text": "OK. So this is \"Ain't Christmas,\" and let's hear it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, but much sadder. Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 61, "text": "I really like that song. And the way they do it with a male and female singer, it sounds like they're both yearning for each other, but they've broken up. And they should get back together.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 62, "text": "Yeah, 'cause they love the same films.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. Exactly. Yes, I'm going to burn your present. But you can tell she really thought, why couldn't this have worked out, you know?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 63, "text": "Getting back to your playlist, since we've heard some songs about heartbreak and death, I thought let's lighten it up and play a song from your playlist that's just about the enjoyment of shopping for Christmas.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. Exactly. Yes, I'm going to burn your present. But you can tell she really thought, why couldn't this have worked out, you know?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 64, "text": "Yeah. And tell us why you chose this song. It's from 1983.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And I don't know if this is meant to be ironic, but it really is about let's go shopping."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 65, "text": "I'm unfamiliar with him, too, but it's a fun song, so let's hear it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "somebody's tackling this in a kind of unironic way."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 66, "text": "I'm voting for...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I'm going shopping, shopping, shopping around downtown. I'm going shopping. I'm going shopping, shopping, shopping around downtown. Every time Christmas comes around, it's time for shopping."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 67, "text": "...That it's not ironic, because he's talking about the joy of buying gifts for people who you care about.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 68, "text": "And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 69, "text": "Do you buy a lot of gifts or have you kind of, like, signed off of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And kind of going downtown, mingling with all the other shoppers who are - everybody's kind of engaged in the same kind of activity."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 70, "text": "Also, as an adult, there's always this fear as you're opening a gift that it's going to be something you know you want to give away 'cause you don't need it and you don't have room for it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I kind of signed off on it. But I want to buy something for someone when I see the thing. Like, so-and-so would love that, then get it for them."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 71, "text": "Exactly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And someone's looking at your facial expression..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 72, "text": "Exactly. Exactly. I remember a gift I gave to one of my parents, and they opened it and they said, take it back. I don't need it", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And going, hmm."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 73, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And going, hmm."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 74, "text": "Yeah, I know. I was going to mention that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh. It's the thought that counts."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 75, "text": "Yes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, speaking of Christmas gifts..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 76, "text": "Oh, you're kidding.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I'm going to visit a friend in Santa Fe, a musician and artist that I have known for years, and decades ago - I guess this would be in the late '80s, '90s, whatever - we used to communicate with on"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 77, "text": "Wow. You saved them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a huge pile."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 78, "text": "Why did you save them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep. I saved them."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 79, "text": "What a great gift. Now, does he listen to our show or know anybody who does? 'Cause that would kind of give away the surprise.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They're very idiosyncratic, and they're kind of funny. I mean, it's sentimental, but it's also - they're not just - hi, what are you doing today? - and whatever."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 80, "text": "It's OK?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He may - might listen to the show, yes. But it's OK. It's OK."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 81, "text": "All right. So I want to end with a song that's actually a song that's really about Christmas. It's one of the carols, but it's an old song. It's from, like, the 1840s. It's \"O Holy Night.\" And this is one of those songs that - it's just a beautiful song. It's a beautiful melody. And the part that goes fall on your knees, there's some chord behind that part that is just - it's kind of gripping. A recent version that I really like a lot is by Samara Joy. And she won, like, two Grammys this year for Best Jazz Vocal Album and Best New Artist. And this is a song with her family, 'cause her family all sang gospel music, and she's singing lead on it. And her father, who performed with the gospel star Andrae Crouch - her father both sang and played bass, I think. Anyways, he sings on it, too. Do you like this song, David?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's OK."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 82, "text": "Yeah, OK. Let's hear it. This is Samara Joy and The McLendon Family.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. I haven't heard this version, so I'm really looking forward to this. Usually, the versions I hear are very kind of cleaned up and very pristine. And this sounds like it's going to be - hav"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 83, "text": "What'd you think?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Fall on your knees. Oh, hear the angel voices. Oh, night divine, oh, night when Christ was born. Oh, night divine. Oh, night. Oh, night divine. Fall..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 84, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wow. That's, yeah, very moving."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 85, "text": "Yeah, yeah, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Incredibly moving, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 86, "text": "Oh, I hadn't noticed that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then I noticed some little kind of musical songwriting things. Like, she sneaks in an extra measure when she holds out a note."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 87, "text": "That's the kind of thing you would notice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, little things like that when you go, oh. That's just - yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 88, "text": "Yeah. So that Samara Joy song was a song that I chose, but other than that, the songs we've been hearing today were chosen by David Byrne. It's his Christmas playlist. And, David, I'm so grateful to you for coming back on the show and doing this. It's been so much fun. And you've introduced me to songs I didn't know and performers I didn't know. I knew some of them, but not all of them, so thank you for that. I personally thank you for that. And I wish you happy holidays and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess so, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 89, "text": "Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. Same to you. Happy holidays."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 90, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hope you make it through the holidays."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-24", "guest": "David Byrne", "title": "Whether you're merry or miserable, David Byrne's holiday playlist will resonate", "question_index": 91, "text": "David Byrne and his Christmas playlist recorded last year. You can find and listen to the Christmas playlist that he put together for us on our website, freshair.npr.org, or in the show notes on the podcast. David Byrne cofounded and fronted the band Talking Heads. The restored version of the band\u2019s 1984 concert film, \"Stop Making Sense,\" is available for rent or purchase on various streaming platforms. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hope you make it through the holidays."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-25", "guest": "Edward Norton", "title": "Pete Seeger's 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Merry Christmas. I hope you're enjoying the holiday. The new Bob Dylan biopic \"A Complete Unknown\" opened today in theaters. It stars Timothee Chalamet as Dylan. Today, we're featuring interviews from our archive related to Dylan. We'll start with folk singer Pete Seeger, who influenced Dylan and is portrayed in the film by Edward Norton. And later, we'll feature an interview with Bruce Springsteen, who described Dylan as the father of my country, and inducted him into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. Pete Seeger was famous for his songs about working people, unions and social justice. He was one of the most important figures in 20th Century American folk music and was at the forefront of the folk music revival in the 1950s. He popularized the songs \"This Land Is Your Land\" and \"We Shall Overcome,\" and wrote \"If I Had A Hammer\" and \"Turn! Turn! Turn!\" In the 1940s, he sang union songs with The Almanac Singers. A few years later, he cofounded The Weavers, who surprised everyone, including themselves, when they became the first group to bring folk music to the pop charts - until they were blacklisted. Seeger refused to answer questions about his politics and personal associations when he appeared before the House Un-American Activities Committee in the 1950s, during the committee's investigation into so-called subversive activities in the entertainment field. When the committee asked about a song, Seeger offered to sing it. Permission was denied. In 1961, he was convicted of contempt of Congress for refusing to answer questions about his politics and about other people's politics. Permission to sing the song was denied again at his trial. There's a scene based on that in the new movie.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-25", "guest": "Edward Norton", "title": "Pete Seeger's 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 1, "text": "Pete Seeger was convicted for contempt of Congress, but that was eventually overturned on appeal. He later performed at President Obama's inaugural concert. As a young man, Seeger believed songs were a way of binding people to a cause. Here's one of his many labor songs, called \"Cotton Mill Colic.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Federal judge, shouting) Quiet."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-25", "guest": "Edward Norton", "title": "Pete Seeger's 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 2, "text": "Pete Seeger kept singing and protesting right through 2011, when he joined a march in support of the Occupy Wall Street protests. He also spent many years championing environmental causes. He died in 2014 at the age of 94. When I spoke with Seeger in 1984, he told me about how much he was influenced by Woody Guthrie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) When you go to work, well, you work like the devil. At the end of the week, you're not on the level. Payday comes, you ain't got a penny, 'cause when you pay your bills you got so many. I'm "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-25", "guest": "Edward Norton", "title": "Pete Seeger's 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 3, "text": "Was it hard to learn how to jump a railroad car?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Woody showed me how to hitchhike and how to ride freight trains, how to sing in saloons. I said, what kind of songs do you sing? Well, he said, this year, here's five or six tunes that are nearly alwa"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-25", "guest": "Edward Norton", "title": "Pete Seeger's 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 4, "text": "You started doing a lot of performing for unions in union halls and even on picket lines. How did you all come up with the songs that you thought would really speak to the people who were there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, for men. It's - of course, for a woman it would be much more difficult. The danger of being assaulted by men who assume that any woman who would travel that way is open to his advances. But Woody "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-25", "guest": "Edward Norton", "title": "Pete Seeger's 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 5, "text": "In 1949, you were one of the people who were supposed to perform at the Paul Robeson concert in Peekskill.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "With a long discussion. When I met Lee Hays, I met one of the few geniuses I've met in my life. We were always talking and thinking what kind of songs were needed. We'd be trying out this and trying o"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-25", "guest": "Edward Norton", "title": "Pete Seeger's 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 6, "text": "You and many other people there were...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. I sang \"If I Had A Hammer\" and \"T For Texas.\" I forgot what else. \"We Shall Not Be Moved,\" maybe."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-25", "guest": "Edward Norton", "title": "Pete Seeger's 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And we had stones thrown at us."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-25", "guest": "Edward Norton", "title": "Pete Seeger's 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 8, "text": "Had he been hurt?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a pretty horrifying day. A lot of people thought, this is the beginning of American fascism. This is how Hitler got started. I was just one of 10,000 people there, or 20,000. It was a huge crow"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-25", "guest": "Edward Norton", "title": "Pete Seeger's 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 9, "text": "When you look back, I don't know how many times before that you had been confronted with that kind of direct violence, how did you behave during it? And are you satisfied with the way you behaved when you look back?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he would have been killed if I hadn't moved on."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-25", "guest": "Edward Norton", "title": "Pete Seeger's 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 10, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded with Pete Seeger in 1984. In the new Bob Dylan biopic, Seeger is portrayed by Edward Norton. We'll hear more of my interview with Seeger after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm sure that in retrospect, you can think how - of things we did wrong. But knowing what I knew then, why I think we did the right thing, and I was of the opinion, then, that the average Americ"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-25", "guest": "Edward Norton", "title": "Pete Seeger's 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with folk singer Pete Seeger in 1984. He's portrayed by Edward Norton in the new Dylan biopic, \"A Complete Unknown,\" which opened today. During the 1950s, when you were performing with The Weavers, I think that initially, you performed at a lot of demonstrations in union halls and outside. And then you made a decision to start trying nightclubs. Was that a big crisis, to actually decide to move into the clubs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm sure that in retrospect, you can think how - of things we did wrong. But knowing what I knew then, why I think we did the right thing, and I was of the opinion, then, that the average Americ"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-25", "guest": "Edward Norton", "title": "Pete Seeger's 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 12, "text": "Were you really surprised when your records started getting played on the radio and became big hits?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Oh, we - yeah, that was a soul searching. In one sense, I felt we were going into enemy territory. Why should I want to contribute to the nightclub scene, which I thought was anathema? I come from o"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-25", "guest": "Edward Norton", "title": "Pete Seeger's 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 13, "text": "That might have made it even more difficult than when you were blacklisted.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. We never expected to get on the hit parade and to everybody's surprise, including the head of Decca Records, \"Goodnight, Irene\" sold 2 million copies in the summer of 1950. It was the biggest sel"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-25", "guest": "Edward Norton", "title": "Pete Seeger's 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 14, "text": "You wanted to sing a song to the committee, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thought the blacklisters would be after us a lot sooner. It took them a couple of years to chop us down. And it was a full five years before they got around to calling me up before the Committee on "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-25", "guest": "Edward Norton", "title": "Pete Seeger's 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 15, "text": "I'm speaking with Pete Seeger, if you're just joining us. Have the wounds ever healed among the folk musicians who were friendly witnesses and those who weren't before HUAC?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I did. They questioned me about a song. I said, well, that's a good song. I'll sing it to you. Well, no, they didn't want me to sing it. They wanted to know where I had sung it at the followin"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-25", "guest": "Edward Norton", "title": "Pete Seeger's 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, that honor kept you off of television for many years afterwards. How did you feel around the early '60s when the folk music boom started taking off, when finally folk music had become commercially viable, and you were in a way prevented from participating in it because you weren't allowed on radio or TV?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do think it's been harder for the friendly witnesses. History has not been kind to the Un-American Activities Committee. It feels, as I felt, that these people didn't love America so much as their o"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-25", "guest": "Edward Norton", "title": "Pete Seeger's 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 17, "text": "Well, take a song like \"If I Had A Hammer.\" That is, I think, one of the most recorded songs in the world. I mean, hundreds of people have recorded it, right? But when you had first written it, it was considered a very dangerous song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was mad. I wrote some articles in Sing Out! magazine, warning people that this ABC television show called \"Hootenanny\" would be kind of a travesty on what a real hootenanny would be. A real ho"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-25", "guest": "Edward Norton", "title": "Pete Seeger's 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 18, "text": "What was considered dangerous about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-25", "guest": "Edward Norton", "title": "Pete Seeger's 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 19, "text": "Your work has inspired thousands and thousands of Americans of different generations. And you could have, if you wanted to, really, like, played that role to the hilt of, you know, like, the father of the modern American folk music movement.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I - hard to say - talk about freedom and justice, maybe. It's hard to say, hard to say. And if you tried to pin people down, well, they'd just say that's one of these commie songs. I'm sure in the Sou"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-25", "guest": "Edward Norton", "title": "Pete Seeger's 'Fresh Air' interview", "question_index": 20, "text": "My interview with Pete Seeger was recorded in 1984. He died in 2014 at the age of 94. In the New Dylan biopic, \"A Complete Unknown,\" Seeger is portrayed by Edward Norton. After we take a short break, we'll hear the interview I recorded with Bruce Springsteen in 2016 after the publication of his memoir \"Born To Run.\" He performed with Seeger and recorded an entire album of songs associated with Pete Seeger. Here's one of them. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I would have known it was a lie. My main purpose as a musician has been to get people singing and get people to make music by themselves. And it's the only reason I keep singing is because I'm a s"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today, we're kicking off our end-of-the-year series, featuring some of the 2024 interviews we particularly enjoyed, starting with a great actor. Like many fans of HBO's \"Succession,\" I became a big fan of actor Jeremy Strong through his portrayal of the character Kendall Roy, one of the siblings hoping to take control of their father's media empire while the father is growing old and possibly nearing death. Strong won an Emmy for that performance, and a Tony for his recent starring role on Broadway in Ipsen's \"An Enemy Of The People.\" Now Strong is starring in the film \"The Apprentice,\" which came out in October and is now available to rent for streaming. \"The Apprentice\" refers to the young Donald Trump as he's trying to establish himself in his father's business as a real estate developer. The person who is mentoring him on how to become successful is Trump's lawyer - the infamous Roy Cohn, played by Jeremy Strong. Strong is nominated for a Golden Globe for his performance. Roy Cohn was known for prosecuting and winning the federal government's case against Julius and Ethel Rosenberg on charges of giving nuclear secrets to the Soviets. In a controversial decision, they were sentenced to death and executed in the electric chair in 1953. In 1954, during the communist witch hunt period, Cohn was the chief counsel to Joseph McCarthy's Senate investigations into the communist influence in the U.S. Cohn and McCarthy were also leaders in the anti-gay movement that led to an executive order banning gay people from serving in government. But Cohn was a closeted gay man who died of AIDS. He never came out and insisted that his disease wasn't AIDS - it was liver cancer. He was disbarred weeks before his death in 1986. Strong's performance personifies what was written about Cohn on his patch on the AIDS memorial quilt. It read, bully, coward, victim. Let's start with a scene from early in the film, when Trump and Cohn first meet. Trump has just gotten accepted to a private dining club in Manhattan. Cohn is seated at a table with several mobsters, including Fat Tony Salerno, the boss of the Genovese crime family. When Cohn notices Trump, who he's never met, he asks his friend to bring Trump to the table. Cohn is interested in finding out who Trump is. Trump is played by Sebastian Stan. Jeremy Strong as Cohn speaks first.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Jeremy Strong, welcome to FRESH AIR. I love the film, and that scene has so much energy to it. You have such swagger in it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Roy Cohn) Of course, it helps if Nixon and the attorney general are your pals."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 2, "text": "Oh, it is totally my pleasure. You know, a biopic is different from a film based on an original story, so you had a character who is a known person who you had to portray. What did you do to know, to watch, to listen to him before playing him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. I'm honored to be talking to you. Thanks for having me."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 3, "text": "But did you ever fact-check any of it? Like, did you feel a responsibility to not only be - have acting truth but have, you know, like, fact truth?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, I'll just say I haven't watched the film in a while, and hearing that scene back - it's really so charged, isn't it? And Roy in that scene encapsulates the playbook which the film exam"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 4, "text": "And I should mention here that the film was written by Gabriel Sherman, who is a journalist who wrote a book about, you know, Murdoch and Fox News.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely, yes. I absolutely feel a sort of fidelity to truth with a capital T, which is funny in this case because Roy Cohn - if he's anything, to me, he's, like, the progenitor of alternative facts"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Yeah. I should have said Ailes, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, a book about Roger Ailes and..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no, I mean, it's also about Murdoch. But, of course..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Right. Well, that's the thing. Like, I feel like your recent career is so connected to Trump, because \"Succession...\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I read that book when I was working on \"Succession\" because, you know, during that time..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Yeah. What I want to know is, do you feel very adjacent to Trump - like, that you know Trump? Because your characters have been so, you know, related to Trump in one way or another, and very directly related in \"The Apprentice.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's intersectionality there, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Oh, yeah, yeah. I know who he is, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't. If I'm honest, I feel that my job is to almost be a sort of vessel, which involves kind of clearing myself out. I went on a silent meditation retreat last week, Terry. And the teacher, who's "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yes. I'm going to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Jon talked about a term called anatta, which means no-self or not-self. And it really resonated with me because I find that that is the place where I tend to be when I'm working, I think, creatively. "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 11, "text": "I'm going to stop you there because I was going to ask you if you notate your scripts as if they were music. Because like in the scene that we just heard, there's real music in your voice. You've got a rhythm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...To play whatever piece of music that I'm given."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, why don't we listen to the real Roy Cohn's voice? This is from an interview with Tom Snyder...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. You know, I used to when I was in college. I sort of have held on to old scripts and plays, and when I did, you know, \"American Buffalo\" or something, \"Look Back In Anger\" in college, I hav"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 13, "text": "...On his late-night show \"Tomorrow,\" as...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Really? As broadcast in 1977. So here we go.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I probably watched this a thousand times."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 15, "text": "So what was it like playing somebody who you find, like - is despicable too strong a word?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Scare value. Going back over a period of years, when I call somebody or write a letter or something like that, this is supposed to make them tremble and think unless they act promptly and reasonably, "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 16, "text": "And just be him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I don't think it's too strong a word. But, you know, you have to really check that at the door as an actor when you approach a role."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here and then talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jeremy Strong. He played Kendall Roy in HBO's \"Succession.\" He now stars in the new film \"The Apprentice\" as the young Donald Trump's lawyer and mentor, Roy Cohn. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You have to leave your judgment at the door and try to, in an almost diagnostic way, identify their wounds and their struggle and then fight their fight the way they did. I'm simply trying to inhabit "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jeremy Strong, who became famous for his role on HBO's \"Succession\" as Kendall Roy. He stars in the new film \"The Apprentice.\" It's about Donald Trump as a young man striving to become successful and his unethical lawyer and mentor, Roy Cohn, played by Jeremy Strong. One of the things you didn't do is use a prosthetic nose. Roy Cohn had a very distinctive nose.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You have to leave your judgment at the door and try to, in an almost diagnostic way, identify their wounds and their struggle and then fight their fight the way they did. I'm simply trying to inhabit "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 19, "text": "And there's kind of, like, a ridge in the middle of it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 20, "text": "And the ridge became discolored. And I think a lot of actors would have had some kind of prosthetic on their nose to duplicate Roy Cohn's nose. You did not do that. Was that your decision?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Yeah. So, you know, the film is in part how Trump became so litigious, like, suing so many people and getting sued a lot, too. So the movie's, in part, about that, and to underscore how litigious he can be, he threatened to sue the film to prevent it from being distributed. He - his lawyers wrote a cease and desist order to try to prevent it from opening. So there's been a lot of complicated behind-the-scenes goings-on in terms of finding a different distributor and more funding and dealing with this threatened lawsuit. So how involved were you in that part of the story and in even knowing what was going on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. At the end of the day, you know, it was something our director wanted to do. And we discussed it, and you pick your battles, but that was one of them for me. Yeah. He had this operation, this bo"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Who were they afraid of?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was aware - I mean, listen, this movie opens on Friday on 1,500 screens. I think it's playing in every state in this country. I personally think it's sort of imperative that people see this movie ju"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Let's talk about \"Succession\" a little bit.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were afraid of litigation, and they were afraid of repercussions from, you know, a possible Trump administration, I would say."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 24, "text": "OK, great. Thank you. So \"Succession\" is the HBO series about a media mogul who owns a Fox News kind of conservative cable network. He owns theme parks and cruise ships. He's old. His health is fragile, and his four adult children are competing to see which of them will take their father's place. So you auditioned initially for Roman, the Kieran Culkin character.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. I don't know if I'll remember anything, Terry, but let's try."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 25, "text": "And then Adam McKay, who was an executive producer of \"Succession,\" after you didn't get the part of Roman, he asked you to audition for Kendall, which is the role you became famous for. And, you know, Kendall is this mix of, like, confidence - sometimes overconfidence - and insecurity, uncertainty, indecisiveness. Sometimes decisiveness, but the decision is frequently not the right one. So there is this constant conflict going on within him. What did you relate to about that brew of contradictions within him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 26, "text": "So in one of the final scenes in \"Succession,\" the father has died. The children are fighting to keep the company while the head of another company is trying to buy it out. Kendall has pitched himself as the successor at the final board meeting before the decision is made. They're about to vote, and each of the three siblings has a vote, too. And the decisive vote is going to be the sister, Shiv's. And before she says what her vote is going to be, she calls a meeting in another room with you and Kieran Culkin's character, and she explains why she's not going to vote for you. And this refers back to when you confessed to your siblings that you had accidentally killed a young man while you were very high, and he had a drug contact. And you were too high to be driving, and you accidentally drove off the road into a lake. And you couldn't rescue him from the car. So what you did was, like, run away and then, like, pretend like you had nothing to do with it. But you confessed to your father, who covered it up for you, and then you were indebted to him. So I want to play that scene where the three siblings are in a separate room, and Shiv, your character's sister, is explaining why she's not going to vote for you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, my experience as an actor was an experience of years and years and years of kind of struggling and feeling thwarted and feeling a sense of being denied, a sense of being in a wilderness. So "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 27, "text": "Such a great scene. And I should mention that's Sarah Snook playing Shiv and Kieran Culkin playing Roman. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jeremy Strong. He stars in the new film \"The Apprentice\" as the unethical lawyer Roy Cohn, who became Donald Trump's lawyer and mentor when Trump was a young man. In the HBO series \"Succession,\" Strong played Kendall Roy. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Kendall Roy) And, you know, this - it mattered to him. He wanted this to go on."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 28, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Jeremy Strong. In the new film \"The Apprentice,\" he plays Roy Cohn, the unethical lawyer who became Donald Trump's lawyer and mentor when Trump was a young man trying to establish himself as a real estate developer. Jeremy Strong is up for a Golden Globe as best supporting actor for his performance in \"The Apprentice.\" Strong's breakout role was in the HBO series \"Succession,\" in which he played Kendall Roy, one of the siblings competing to become the successor to their father, who reigns over a media empire but is old and possibly nearing death. So in the final scene of \"Succession,\" you've lost the company. You've lost everything that you've ever had or ever wanted. And you're sitting on a bench next to the Hudson River. The only thing that separates you is a guard rail, and you look so dejected, in such despair that it looks like you are seriously considering jumping into the river and ending it. And the series ends like that. When I interviewed Jesse Armstrong after the end of the series, I asked him about that scene, and I want to play my question and what Jesse Armstrong had to say. And Jesse Armstrong wrote this episode and, you know, was the showrunner and creator of this series. So here we go.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Kendall Roy) And, you know, this - it mattered to him. He wanted this to go on."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 29, "text": "My understanding is that Jeremy Strong improvised a take in which he climbs over the railing from the pedestrian side of the river to the river side, and - looking as if he's really maybe about to jump in. And his bodyguard, like, runs over to prevent that from happening. And that was improvised. Were you there when Jeremy Strong improvised that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Kendall Roy) And, you know, this - it mattered to him. He wanted this to go on."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 30, "text": "What'd you think?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure, yeah, we were there. It was biting cold, and we were - you know, I'm there every day, and certainly for that important scene."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 31, "text": "So, Jeremy Strong, did you improvise that scene? Did you know you were going to do it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was terrified. I was terrified that he might fall in and be injured. He didn't look like he was going to jump in. But once he climbed over that barrier - you know, when you film, there are generally"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 32, "text": "Yeah. Was it - was that something...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Did I know I was going to climb over the barrier?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 33, "text": "So how did you end up doing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 34, "text": "So when you were thinking of doing something as radical as changing the last moment of the series and, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You, I think, learn over a lifetime to obey your deepest instincts, and, you know, it's that thing of it's better to ask forgiveness than to ask permission. I was obeying a deep impulse. I mean, my fe"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 35, "text": "What would that be?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, but it's only radical because maybe you weren't there for the way we made the whole show."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 36, "text": "I want to talk a little bit about your life. So you grew up in a - I think what you've described as a rough neighborhood in the Jamaica Plain area of Boston, and then your family moved to a suburb. What was the difference in neighborhoods, and what was the difference in who you were in each neighborhood and how you tried, if you tried, to fit in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's not radical at all. I mean, I - you know, over seven years, I was as much involved in what happened on the show or what happened in any given scene, and I was as much an authority and had as much"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 37, "text": "Acting has been an obsession.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, Jamaica Plain, which has now become quite gentrified, was different in the late '70s and early '80s. And I went to school in West Roxbury, and sort of that was where I grew up. And it "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 38, "text": "You know, you mentioned your father was a - worked in juvenile jails in the area, and I think he was kind of the equivalent of a warden. Is that fair to say?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 39, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here and then talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jeremy Strong. He played Kendall Roy in HBO's \"Succession.\" He now stars in the new film \"The Apprentice\" as the young Donald Trump's lawyer and mentor, Roy Cohn. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, but much more benevolent than that and much more loved than what you think of as a warden. You know, these were facilities for minors, but kids who had been locked up for very serious offenses -"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 40, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jeremy Strong, who became famous for his role on HBO's \"Succession\" as Kendall Roy. He stars in the new film \"The Apprentice.\" It's about Donald Trump as a young man striving to become successful and his unethical lawyer and mentor, Roy Cohn, played by Jeremy Strong. Both of your parents had very dramatic jobs. Both of your parents were immersed in lifechanging events of people - your father, young people who'd been convicted of crimes...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, but much more benevolent than that and much more loved than what you think of as a warden. You know, these were facilities for minors, but kids who had been locked up for very serious offenses -"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 41, "text": "...And your mother, people who were approaching death. She was a hospice nurse. That's a lot of drama to grow up with. Was there a lot of discussion of their work in the house? Were you always hearing stories about kids who, you know, got into trouble and people who were dealing with imminent death and were in hospice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 42, "text": "Were there parts of yourself when you started acting as a child that you were glad to be liberated from?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I think they actually really shielded my brother and I from that and protected us from any of that heaviness or drama. But I did sort of grok, as a young person, how important and how much their w"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 43, "text": "Early in your career, you interned with or worked on crews for films with Daniel Day-Lewis, Dustin Hoffman and Al Pacino, three very intense but very different actors. What was your relationship in each of those things? Like, which films, which actor, did you crew for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. I mean, acting and the impulse to do this was initially an escape and wanting to escape from where I lived, from the heaviness that I felt, from the sort of frayed, strained financial situation "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 44, "text": "This is about the Shakespeare play, \"Richard III\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, you know, I grew up so far away from any of this, and I had such a yearning to do it and to be part of the world of it. I still feel that yearning. And those were three of my greatest hero"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 45, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, about \"Richard III,\" the play - and, you know, was very, very, very, peripherally involved in anything. I think I was 14 or 15. And - but, you know, I still have a \"Dog Day Afternoon\" poster on "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 46, "text": "What would you say to your letters asking to work with Daniel Day-Lewis or Dustin Hoffman?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And Al has seen \"The Apprentice.\" And, of course, Al played Roy Cohn in a definitive way and was very kind to me about it, which, as you can imagine, meant the world to me. But yeah, so I worked on th"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 47, "text": "Did you get to talk to Daniel Day-Lewis, or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't really remember. You know, for \"The Crucible,\" it was just I'm this kid and, you know, I'll take off from school. I'll work for free. I'll do anything. And I ended up working in the greens dep"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 48, "text": "...Observe his method or anything?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no. No."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 49, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here and then talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jeremy Strong. He played Kendall Roy in HBO's \"Succession.\" He now stars in the new film \"The Apprentice\" as the young Donald Trump's lawyer and mentor, Roy Cohn. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not then. I mean, observe, sure, from a distance. And, you know, later - much later - I worked for Daniel on a film, and then we made a film together 10 years after that. So, you know, he's someon"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 50, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jeremy Strong, who became famous for his role on HBO's \"Succession\" as Kendall Roy. He stars in the new film \"The Apprentice.\" It's about Donald Trump as a young man striving to become successful and his unethical lawyer and mentor, Roy Cohn, played by Jeremy Strong.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not then. I mean, observe, sure, from a distance. And, you know, later - much later - I worked for Daniel on a film, and then we made a film together 10 years after that. So, you know, he's someon"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 51, "text": "So I want to end with a song. There are two musical moments in \"Succession\" that really stand out. One was when you're practicing - you're kind of doing a sound check for your birthday party that you've...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not then. I mean, observe, sure, from a distance. And, you know, later - much later - I worked for Daniel on a film, and then we made a film together 10 years after that. So, you know, he's someon"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 52, "text": "...Planned. And it's a very elaborate, really ridiculous party that you've planned that doesn't work out well.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 53, "text": "But what - you're rehearsing or doing the sound check with the Billy Joel song \"Honesty.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 54, "text": "And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 55, "text": "Oh, really? How did you choose that song? And I should mention that you sing it with, like, conviction and earnestness, and everybody in the room is just cringing", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Which was a pitch I made to Jesse."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 56, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Which was a pitch I made to Jesse."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 57, "text": "But why did you choose \"Honesty?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "that my - I don't know if it was my nanny or my wife, but they told my kids about these songs. And my kids, who are 3 and 5 and 6, started to listen to them, especially when I'm away, which I have to "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 58, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, for a guy who was throwing that party and was going to dress himself up on a cross..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 59, "text": "The song I want to end with is \"L To The OG.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...With a USB crown of thorns, it felt - I learned two songs for it. I learned \"Honesty,\" and I learned \"King Of Pain\" by The Police. And I did both of those songs on the day, and so I think either of"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 60, "text": "Good", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, which my kids can now do a pretty good version of."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 61, "text": ". So - if I listen to it any more times, so will I be able to", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, which my kids can now do a pretty good version of."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 62, "text": ". OK. So this is, like, the rap that you do at your father's 50th anniversary of his business.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, which my kids can now do a pretty good version of."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 63, "text": "And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 64, "text": "And he wrote the great theme song to \"Succession.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Can I - I just want to say that, you know, it's such an interesting object lesson in how - you know, these things, when you're making them, you know, it's just you in a room with a couple people. And "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 65, "text": "So just one more question about that - the way you say, L to the OG, the way your voice raises on the OG...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He wrote the theme song and he wrote this. And he said, hey, I have this rap. Maybe you could do it at the dinner. We were filming it three days later. And he played it for me on the phone, and I have"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 66, "text": "...It's like a question mark. Usually, in hip-hop, there's a lot of assertion", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 67, "text": ", you know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 68, "text": "...And almost arrogance. You know, like, this is who I am.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That's correct."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 69, "text": "So was that a choice, to make it sound, like, a little, like, tentative...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 70, "text": "...And insecure, like a question as opposed to, like, an exclamation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 71, "text": "It was like horror.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. It's interesting. You know, back when I would go to some acting classes, people would always say, oh, I like the choice you made, or, that's an interesting choice. I never, ever experience anythin"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 72, "text": "Oh, like they were", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But that's because they'd never seen me do it until then."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 73, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But that's because they'd never seen me do it until then."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 74, "text": "So that was a real reaction in part?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 75, "text": "That's really funny. So one more question, and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, but that's the thing about film. You want it to be real - or at least, I do."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 76, "text": "...Then I will let you go, 'cause I've kept you a long time. How did it feel to end your relationship with Kendall and the series ended? Did you feel liberated from him, or did you miss him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 77, "text": "Well, it's just been great to talk with you. I admire your work so much. Thank you so much for being on our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To be honest, I've sort of just put it away, like I put away all of these things. You know, I have a stack of scripts in my office, and it's like this stack of lives that I've had that when they're ov"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 78, "text": "And let's end with \"L To The OG.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. Likewise. Yeah, it's so great to talk to you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 79, "text": "So this is Jeremy Strong, who stars as Roy Cohn in the new movie \"The Apprentice,\" and here's \"L To The OG,\" which he sings in \"Succession.\" Thank you again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 80, "text": "My interview with Jeremy Strong was recorded in October. He's nominated for a Golden Globe for his role as Donald Trump's lawyer and mentor, Roy Cohn, in the film \"The Apprentice.\" The awards ceremony is Sunday, January 5. The host will be Nikki Glaser. We'll hear my interview with Glaser on Monday. And tomorrow on FRESH AIR, as our holiday week series continues, we'll hear Tonya Mosley's interview with TV journalist Connie Chung. Chung will talk about her climb to the top of her white male-dominated field, her love of hard news and her nearly 40-year marriage to tabloid talk show host Maury Povich. I hope you'll join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at @nprfreshair.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Kendall Roy) L to the - L to the OG."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-26", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "'Deny, deflect, delay': Jeremy Strong channels Trump's mentor in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 81, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Kendall Roy) L to the - L to the OG."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're continuing our end-of-the-year series featuring a few of the 2024 interviews we've particularly enjoyed. Today, it's comic Nikki Glaser. She's hosting the Golden Globes on Sunday, and her latest comedy special, called \"Someday You'll Die,\" is nominated for a Globe. She's also currently nominated for a Grammy for best comedy album and a Critics' Choice TV Award for best comedy special. When I spoke with her in July, I had to figure out how I was going to talk to her because a lot of her comedy is about sex in pretty explicit language that we cannot use in a broadcast. One of her comedy specials is called \"Good Clean Filth.\" She says that she talks about her privates so much, she thinks of them as her publics. That part of her comedy is about the pleasures, insecurities, embarrassments and absurdities involved with sex. In \"Someday You'll Die,\" she also talks about why she doesn't want to have children, her thoughts on monogamy, her experiences with depression and suicidal thinking, getting older - she's 40 - and how comics are often afraid of getting canceled. I think she's really funny. Watching her work, I'm fascinated by how she often walks the line between incredibly perceptive and potentially tasteless or offensive. Sometimes, as I laugh out loud, I start wondering, is it OK to laugh at this? That's especially true when she's featured at a celebrity roast, walking the line between hilarious and maybe a little too personal or a little too cruel. She made headlines in May at the roast of Tom Brady. Other people she's roasted include Rob Lowe, Alec Baldwin and Bruce Willis. She's been a contestant on reality shows, including \"Dancing With The Stars,\" and hosted reality shows, including \"FBoy Island\" and the current sequel \"Lovers And Liars.\" \"Someday You'll Die\" is streaming on multiple platforms. Note to parents - this interview isn't explicit about sex, but we do have an adult conversation.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 1, "text": "Nikki Glaser, welcome to FRESH AIR. You know, one of the things I really like about your comedy is it gets me to ask myself, where is the line between hilarious and tasteless or hilarious and maybe a little cruel? Do you wonder where the line is between tasteless and cruel? Do you want me to be thinking about that when I listen to your comedy?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 2, "text": "I really think you succeed in that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, no. I think that what I intend is just to say what's honest and what is funny to me. And it's always interesting to hear how people perceive or take in my comedy because I never intend - tas"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 3, "text": "And I like the fact that it challenges me to think about, where is the line? So that's part of what I enjoy about your comedy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 4, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I don't love people getting offended. I think sometimes because of the nature of what I talk about, people think that I enjoy if people leave a show or are scoffing at things or groaning at thin"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 6, "text": "How did sex and your own body become the focus of so much of your comedy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But it's worked in many aspects, but it's been a roundabout kind of way of getting there. But it really is the underlining motivation, is, like, just like me, which I think is most comedians."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 7, "text": "Did you have friends who had sex before you did who could fill you in? Or were you uncomfortable...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, sex was always the scariest thing to me. It was always the most interesting thing. I - you know, I didn't have sex till I was 21. I didn't kiss a boy till I was 18, I think. I was scared of "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 8, "text": "...Just talking about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 9, "text": "So you were afraid you would get made fun of because you were bad at sex. Did anybody actually make fun of you during or after a sexual encounter?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, yeah. I didn't get my period until I was really late in high school. I was the last to do everything of my girlfriends. So I kind of had all the information when I was ready to finally do it"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 10, "text": "Oh, wait a minute. Stop just right there for a second.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I don't think so. Not that I can recall. I'm sure it's happened behind my back. And, yeah, I think as an adult, I've heard - I remember things I did, and I can only assume that the male comics I w"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 11, "text": "There's a lot of male comics who, like you, talk about sex a lot.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 12, "text": "That strikes me - if you're self-conscious and worried that people are going to make fun of you, having relationships with comics seems to me like a very hazardous situation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's why I never got a relationship out of any of it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 14, "text": "Seriously?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was always just, like - they were just - that's where alcohol came in."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well, when you started in comedy, when you were doing open mics, was it mostly male comics talking about sex? - 'cause there was a period of so much of that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like, so when I discovered drinking, then all my fears went out the window. And then - you know, which is the worst thing that could happen because when I was drunk, I would do way more embarrassing t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 16, "text": "How did you want to talk about sex onstage in a way that was different from the male comics that you heard coming up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It was. It was early 2000s, and I came up in the Kansas City and St. Louis comedy scenes, which I feel are notoriously pretty dirty, just - you know, both the clubs are dirty, but, like, also th"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it wasn't like I was saying, oh, you know, male comics are getting it wrong, and I need to take back the story and represent what we're going through. It was really just about how strange it"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 18, "text": "That's one of the things I find very interesting about you, is - on the one hand, you seem to really enjoy sex and are very sex positive. At the same time, you point out all of the absurdities and the embarrassments, the insecurities, the things you really don't like. And it's an interesting combination that I think so many people experience, and you're saying it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like, I just don't understand what's going on here. And then how do we all agree to - you go on a date with a guy, and you're on your best behavior, and you're trying to look so prim and proper and ma"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 19, "text": "My guest is comic Nikki Glaser. She's hosting the Golden Globes Sunday and is nominated for one for her latest comedy special, \"Someday You'll Die.\" We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded in July with comic Nikki Glaser. Her latest comedy special is called \"Someday You'll Die.\" She's hosting the Golden Globes Sunday, and the special is nominated for one. And note to parents, if you're just tuning in - she talks about sex a lot in her comedy, and we're talking about that some in this interview. So use your discretion if you have children in the car.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's always been the goal is just to mention the unmentionable. And as I've dealt with, like, addictions and just problems with my mental health, it's like - that's always the answer to solving it, "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 20, "text": "You've been in a relationship for about 10 years, and it's been a little on-again, off-again. I think it's very on-again", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's always been the goal is just to mention the unmentionable. And as I've dealt with, like, addictions and just problems with my mental health, it's like - that's always the answer to solving it, "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 21, "text": "right now. But in periods when you are seeing other people, do men have weird expectations of you and what you will be like in bed because of your comedy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's always been the goal is just to mention the unmentionable. And as I've dealt with, like, addictions and just problems with my mental health, it's like - that's always the answer to solving it, "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 22, "text": "What does Taylor Swift have to do with it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God. I really don't even consider that. I feel so disconnected from being, like, a sex comic. I feel, like, more that I'm just commenting on this thing that exists rather than talking about my "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 23, "text": "If you were using the stage for revenge, especially if it was revenge against male comics who you had dated, did that affect your image within comedy circles?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think Taylor Swift is able to get revenge for being hurt in songs, you know, and be able to take control of the heartbreak that she's endured and take control of the narrative of what happened"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 24, "text": "So I want to play another clip, and this is from an earlier special of yours, and it's about maiden names. And I just think it's really funny. So let's hear this clip, and then we'll talk some more.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's such a horrible thing. Like, they're - now that I look back on it, like, I spun it so much of, like - of what a jerk they were, how cruel they were, when they really just didn't maybe find the "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 25, "text": "I have to say, Nikki, I never thought about that with the bank security question. There's so many security questions where it's mother's maiden name.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So rude."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 26, "text": "It's really funny. I take it, you would never change your name if you did get married. I mean, you can't in a way, because your name - it's a famous name. You can't - I mean, you could.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 27, "text": "But why would you want to change your name 'cause it's already a marquee name?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 28, "text": "Legally.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Like, I might change it just for - just..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 29, "text": "What are your thoughts about marriage? Do you want to get married at some point?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, just for fun, if it sounded cool or looked cool or something or just, you know - I don't really have this, like, huge stance about - this feminist stance about - I mean, I think it's dumb that w"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 30, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do now because I can get a divorce. I've been like, oh..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 31, "text": "What about having children? You've talked as recently as your latest comedy special about not wanting to have children. Now that you're 40 and it would be more difficult", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...What have I been so scared of? Like, I think - there's an out, you know? Like, that's why the kids for me is different. There's like, no out to it. You know, I do understand why people get married "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 32, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...What have I been so scared of? Like, I think - there's an out, you know? Like, that's why the kids for me is different. There's like, no out to it. You know, I do understand why people get married "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 33, "text": "...To conceive, do you have second thoughts about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 34, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded with comic Nikki Glaser in July. She's hosting the Golden Globes Sunday night and is nominated for one for her latest comedy special, \"Someday You'll Die,\" which is streaming on multiple platforms. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I can't wait till it's - I mean, obviously, I can wait with everything that comes with menopause, but I think the cool thing about menopause is that it's like no one's being like, are you going to"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 35, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded in July with comic Nikki Glaser we're featuring as part of our end-of-the-year series collecting a few of our favorite interviews from 2024. She's hosting the Golden Globes Sunday and is nominated for one for her HBO Max comedy special \"Someday You'll Die,\" which is now streaming on multiple platforms. A lot of her comedy is about the insecurities and absurdities surrounding sex. In \"Someday You'll Die,\" she also talks about why she doesn't want to have children, her thoughts on monogamy, her experiences with depression and suicidal thinking, getting older - she's 40 - and how comics are often afraid of getting canceled. Note to parents - a lot of Glaser's comedy is about sex. We don't get sexually explicit in our conversation, but it is an adult conversation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I can't wait till it's - I mean, obviously, I can wait with everything that comes with menopause, but I think the cool thing about menopause is that it's like no one's being like, are you going to"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 36, "text": "So a lot of comics complain about how you can't say anything anymore without risking being canceled, especially if you're performing on a college campus. And you kind of address that in your latest comedy special. And, I mean, like, you talk about how, like, you cannot make jokes about rape. But if you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I can't wait till it's - I mean, obviously, I can wait with everything that comes with menopause, but I think the cool thing about menopause is that it's like no one's being like, are you going to"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 37, "text": "...Were raped, then people will be relieved. Like, oh, I don't have to be upset that she's making a rape joke 'cause she was raped, so she's allowed to talk about it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 38, "text": "And I want to play an excerpt of that part of your performance. So here we go.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 39, "text": "...That they have it. It's confirmed. But I can't do the jokes 'cause I don't have any family members with autism. I mean, I will say my nephew is 2 1/2, and he isn't talking yet, so fingers crossed. But, like, I...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have jokes, though, that I want to do that I can't because I don't have any family members with autism. That's the jokes I have. I can't. I have autism jokes because I've dated guys with it, and the"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 40, "text": "So, Nikki, when you did that whole bit about saying what you can't say unless you have that condition yourself or are close to somebody who does, were you afraid of risking insulting people with autism or women who were raped or any of the other things you talk about, including suicidal thinking?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I got one in. I got one in."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 41, "text": "Can you give us an example of an adjustment that you made?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The first two, yes - not for suicidal thinking because that is something that I do struggle with. And so I felt like, OK, I really - I have a right to talk about this thing. The other two, yeah, becau"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 42, "text": "When you are in a period of deep depression, are you capable of performing? And also, as somebody who I'm sure has listened to a lot of comedy over the years, does comedy ever help pull you out of despair?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. You know, I can't think of one because people don't really get as offended. And when they do get offended, there's nothing that I can adjust to even make them feel better because they're usually o"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 43, "text": "Well, I'm glad things have gotten better on that front.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's hard to perform when I'm really, really depressed. But I will say that it's hard to get to the theater and to be backstage and to think, I'm about to go do this thing. I have to turn this on. But"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 44, "text": "Yeah. We're listening to the interview I recorded with comic Nikki Glaser in July. She's hosting the Golden Globes Sunday and is nominated for one for her latest comedy special, \"Someday You'll Die.\" I just want to mention here that if you or someone you know is struggling with suicidal thoughts, there is help at the Suicide and Crisis Lifeline. You can call or text 988 to speak with someone. That's 988 - call or text, and you can speak with someone today. We'll hear more of my interview with Nikki Glaser after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 45, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded in July with comic Nikki Glaser. It's part of our end-of-the-year series featuring some of our favorite interviews of the year.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 46, "text": "I want to talk with you about roasts. You are very funny at roasts in a way that makes me laugh, but also makes me uncomfortable because it really cuts. I mean, I would never want to be roasted by you", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 47, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 48, "text": "I bet you wouldn't want to be roasted by you either, right? Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I wouldn't either."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 49, "text": "Well, yeah, first of all, yeah, some of your performances are like, auto-roasting, roasting yourself. But like I don't - I think roasts end up being really funny, and roasts are sometimes a little cruel. But it's such a weird phenomenon that comics get together and choose a willing victim and just...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I get roasted by me - that's the thing. It's like, I developed this skill because of what I say to myself a lot of times. I think I just made that connection recently of, like - I think on this la"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 50, "text": "...Insult them with punchlines. It's so strange.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 51, "text": "Oh, OK. So I want to play an example.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It really is when you say it like that. Like, I don't know - I understand why people love it because it's just saying things that you would never be able to say and the person's sitting right there, a"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 52, "text": "So this was during the roast of Tom Brady in May that was carried live on Netflix. And, you know, you talk about how he's the greatest quarterback of all time. And, you know, he announced his retirement in 2022 and then returned for another season and then retired for real last year. So here's an excerpt of what you said about Tom Brady with, of course, Tom Brady being in the room.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "God."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 53, "text": "So, Nikki Glaser, that is a stinging joke. And, you know, one of the things I notice at roasts is these, like, forced smiles and, like, ha ha ha - like, I'm going to show I can laugh at this, and you can tell a person's just kind of, like, dying inside.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And Tom hates fat. I mean, do you guys know about his diet program? It is so strict, but if you follow it exactly as he does, you too can lose your family. And - seriously."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 54, "text": "So how do you figure out if jokes like the one we just hear you tell about Tom Brady is too personal or too cutting, too cruel not only to Tom Brady but to the girlfriend he left years ago?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 55, "text": "Did he ever contact you personally, or did you ever contact him personally after that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I felt like I was sticking up for her in a way with that joke. And maybe that's me trying to soften it for myself, but I felt like I was more coming at him than her. And calling - I like the ide"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 56, "text": "Right. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 57, "text": "Yeah. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And fair enough, fair enough."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 58, "text": "Yeah. I'll tell you a couple of jokes that I did actually really wince at and kind of found offensive. So tell me what you think.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Have a nice life, is another way to say what he said."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 59, "text": "I think I was at the - I forget which roast it was at. But Cybill Shepherd and Martha Stewart were there. And you made jokes about their older woman genitals.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Please."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 60, "text": "And I thought, wow, that struck me as, like, really so insulting to women. Do you know that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 61, "text": "...That women have less value when they're older and their genitals are older?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 62, "text": "Do you have to do research when you're preparing a roast so that you know enough about the person's life to know their vulnerabilities and their mistakes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I don't disagree with you. And I just think that the rules of roasts - like, no one's exempt from having their genitals talked about because I do it for men, too. So I felt like I will defend it "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 63, "text": "My guest is comic Nikki Glaser. She's hosting the Golden Globes Sunday and is nominated for one for her latest comedy special, \"Someday You'll Die.\" We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And, you know, I want to like them. Like, I want to come from a place of, like, love, because if it's just all disdain, it's just going to read that way, and it's not going to be as funny. And I"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 64, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with comic Nikki Glaser. Her latest comedy special, \"Someday You'll Die,\" is streaming on Max. When we left off, we were talking about how she's known for her comedic insults at celebrity roasts, jokes that some people have interpreted as offensive. She gets it, and she mentioned she's been on the receiving end of jokes that really hurt her feelings. Would you want to tell a joke that really hurt your feelings? Or is that too much to ask of you", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And, you know, I want to like them. Like, I want to come from a place of, like, love, because if it's just all disdain, it's just going to read that way, and it's not going to be as funny. And I"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 65, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And, you know, I want to like them. Like, I want to come from a place of, like, love, because if it's just all disdain, it's just going to read that way, and it's not going to be as funny. And I"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 66, "text": "Wow, that is a really heavy reaction to it. That was just, like, a joke.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. No. I mean, there was one about - it was Cybill Shepherd at the roast of Bruce Willis, and she said that, I saw Nikki before the show. I walked into the bathroom, and I saw her from behind. And "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 67, "text": "Can I give you a different interpretation of the Cybill Shepherd joke about you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just go, OK, I finally have confirmation. I've been saying I'm ugly my whole life. Everyone is like, no, you're beautiful. And then Cybill just said I was ugly and the whole room laughed equals it's"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 68, "text": "That models look like models. And you turn around, and you look like a real person. And looking like a real person, in my opinion, is a really good thing...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, please."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 69, "text": "...Especially when you have fans and fans see you as being important and they look to you as a role model. It's good to look like a real person. I'm not saying models aren't real people, but they're like the visually perfected version of real people.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 70, "text": "And very few people can achieve that. And that's OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 71, "text": "You might not have been a comic...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I really appreciate that interpretation, and that honestly did sink in. And a lot of what people say in response to this kind of opinion I have about myself does not land, and that did, except t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 72, "text": "...Because it's your insecurity that gave you your greatest gift.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And I'm so glad..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 73, "text": "But you are attractive", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, exactly. And I know that. But sometimes I'm like, I'd give it all up just to - I'd be mute just so I could be gorgeous. You know, I'm always - the comparing and despairing is something I'm well-v"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 74, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, exactly. And I know that. But sometimes I'm like, I'd give it all up just to - I'd be mute just so I could be gorgeous. You know, I'm always - the comparing and despairing is something I'm well-v"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 75, "text": "It's not like you turned around and it's like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, thank you. OK."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 76, "text": "...Oh, no, it's the Hunchback of Notre Dame.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 77, "text": "Yeah, all right. Nikki Glaser, it's been great talking with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. See, that's how I spun that in my head. So thank you for setting me straight on that."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 78, "text": "Oh, thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. This is such an honor. I love you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 79, "text": "I think you're so funny and so perceptive, so it's just been great talking with you. Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I really do. You're incredible."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 80, "text": "My interview with Nikki Glaser was recorded in July. Her latest comedy special, \"Someday You'll Die,\" is streaming on multiple platforms. She's hosting the Golden Globes Sunday, and her special is nominated for one. Well, that concludes our holiday end-of-the-year series. Did the holidays mess up your sleep patterns - staying up late, changing time zones? Are the dark days of winter messing with you, too? Monday on FRESH AIR, we'll talk with science journalist Lynne Peeples, author of a new book about what scientists are learning about our bodies' inner clocks and how that knowledge can help us sleep and function better. I hope you can join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It means the world to me that you feel that way. Thank you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Nikki Glaser", "title": "After a roast, comic Nikki Glaser says she needs to cleanse her brain", "question_index": 81, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer this week is Adam Staniszewski, with additional engineering support from Joyce Lieberman and Julian Herzfeld. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi and Emma Bowman (ph). Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It means the world to me that you feel that way. Thank you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 1)", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today we remember Jimmy Carter and listen back to excerpts of the interviews I recorded with him over the years. He died at the age of 100 and had been the oldest living former president in American history. In The New York Times, Peter Baker wrote this summary of Carter's public life. Quote, \"Mr. Carter was a political sensation in his day, a new-generation Democrat who, after a single term as governor of Georgia, shocked the political world by beating a host of better-known rivals to capture his party's presidential nomination in 1976, then ousting the incumbent Republican president, Gerald Ford, in the fall. Over the course of four years in office, he sought to restore trust in government, following the Vietnam War and the Watergate scandal, ushering in reforms that were meant to transform politics. Negotiated the landmark Camp David Accords, making peace between Israel and Egypt. But a sour economy and a 444-day hostage crisis in Iran, in which 52 American diplomats were held captive undercut his public support, and he lost his bid for reelection to former Governor Ronald Reagan of California in 1980. He spent his post presidency, however, on a series of philanthropic causes around the world, like building houses for the poor, combating guinea worm, a parasitic tropical disease; promoting human rights in places of repression, monitoring elections and seeking to end violent conflicts. His work as a former president in many ways came to eclipse his time in the White House, eventually earning him the Nobel Peace Prize,\" unquote. Let's begin with the interview I recorded with Carter in 1993, after the publication of his memoir \"Turning Point,\" about his first campaign when he won his seat in the Georgia state Senate. That was in 1962, the year he decided to enter politics.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 1)", "question_index": 1, "text": "Wait, you say you found blatant voting abuse. What's the worst example of voting abuse that you faced during that first campaign of yours?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had come home from a Navy, having been 11 years a full-time naval officer, a submarine officer, started a small business and had never run for elective office. I was a chairman of the Sumter C"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 1)", "question_index": 2, "text": "Well, how did you win? How did you get your fair count?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was ahead in the election going into this little tiny county on the Chattahoochee River, just across the river from Alabama. There was a political boss in the county named Joe Hurst. He was ch"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 1)", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think a lot of publicity had accrued. I couldn't get any published at all at first. The local newspapers, even in Columbus, Georgia, which is a fairly good-sized town, were kind of in bed with"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 1)", "question_index": 4, "text": "Interesting cutoff point.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that was..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 1)", "question_index": 5, "text": "Jimmy Carter, before we go any further, I'm going to ask you for a little lesson in etiquette. Do I call you President Carter, Mr. President, our former President Jimmy Carter - what is the appropriate etiquette when you're talking to a former president of the United States?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, but there was a very interesting debate about it, too. People maintained that even though, say, a husband died, there was a certain period of time after his death when the wife and children coul"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 1)", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, one of the nice things about our country is you can call me anything you want to."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 1)", "question_index": 7, "text": "Now, let me ask you - you've been devoting your post-presidential career to monitoring elections around the world, conflict negotiation around the world, human rights around the world. You also have a project in Atlanta to help empower the homeless and the poor. When you left office, what did you see ahead? What did you think you would do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Jimmy suits me OK. There is a custom in our nation that if you have been a governor or ambassador or a judge or president, then you can still retain the title. So if you want to call me president, you"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 1)", "question_index": 8, "text": "Was there a moment of revelation when it started to occur to you the role that you could take in this nation and in the world as a past president of the United States?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't know. You know, I didn't anticipate being retired four years early. Fairly quickly, I decided to teach, and I've been a so-called distinguished professor at Emory University. Now, this is my "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 1)", "question_index": 9, "text": "Jimmy Carter recorded in 1993 after the publication of his memoir \"Turning Point.\" We'll hear more of my interview with Jimmy Carter after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, in a way there was. I didn't anticipate or understand at all then the tremendous crying out around the world for someone that has been president of the United States to help with issues. Let me "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 1)", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 1993 interview with Jimmy Carter, one of several conversations we're featuring with him today. When we spoke in '93, Carter had just published his memoir \"Turning Point.\" He was elected president in 1976. I asked him about the high points and the low points of his Inauguration Day.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, in a way there was. I didn't anticipate or understand at all then the tremendous crying out around the world for someone that has been president of the United States to help with issues. Let me "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 1)", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't remember any low points. The high point, obviously, was assuming the role of a president of the greatest nation on Earth and trying to keep a secret we had planned a few days ahead of ti"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 1)", "question_index": 12, "text": "What was the most disorienting part of your first day and night in the White House?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So she took the wind out of my sails. That's one of the things I remember about Inauguration Day."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 1)", "question_index": 13, "text": "What about during the hostage crisis? Was there ever a point where you wished that you weren't president...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, the aura of the White House and the humility that you feel occupying the same quarters as those great men was overwhelming. Also, what do you do the next day? You know, I still - I had prett"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 1)", "question_index": 14, "text": "...Where you wished that you didn't have this terrible burden on your shoulders?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 1)", "question_index": 15, "text": "Yeah. You told us a little bit about what your Inauguration Day was like. Let's skip ahead to the inauguration of your successor, Ronald Reagan. What were you feeling that day as you realized that the hostages were going to be released on his watch, not on yours?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, about 2 o'clock in the morning in April when we tried the rescue operation and it - and we couldn't succeed, that was perhaps the high point of despair in my presidency. And I knew tha"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 1)", "question_index": 16, "text": "Even though it wasn't on your watch.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I didn't realize that. I had not been to bed for three days and had negotiated in the most meticulous detail the release of the hostages. Everything was all agreed, and the hostages were in the "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 1)", "question_index": 17, "text": "Jimmy Carter, recorded in 1993. After a short break, we'll hear excerpts from other interviews I recorded with Carter, in which he talked about his work as a mediator, negotiating an end to wars and ethnic violence, his deep religious faith and his insistence on keeping church and state separate when he was president, and his reflections on getting older. We'll end the first half of our program with Aretha Franklin singing at Carter's inaugural gala in 1977. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, to me, I didn't even think about it. But obviously that became the major story among the news media, that it happened about 20 minutes after I was no longer president. To me, that was insignific"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 1)", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're looking back on the life of Jimmy Carter and listening to excerpts of my interviews with him. After his presidency, Carter became one of the most sought-after mediators in the world. He negotiated with military rulers and tyrants. In 1995, I interviewed Carter about this work. He had recently brokered a ceasefire in the bloody Balkan War, which put him across the table from the Bosnian Serb leader Radovan Karadzic, who was later convicted of genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) God bless America, land that I love. Stand beside her and guide her through the night from the light from above. From the mountains to the prairies to the ocean white with foam, God bless Am"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 1)", "question_index": 19, "text": "Let me ask you a question that I'm sure a lot of people have wondered about. You have such a strong human rights record. What is it like for you to sit opposite someone like Karadzic, knowing the war crimes that he's guilty of? Do you have to enter negotiations with someone who was a tyrant in a fairly nonjudgmental way and be as cordial and open as you possibly can?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) God bless America, land that I love. Stand beside her and guide her through the night from the light from above. From the mountains to the prairies to the ocean white with foam, God bless Am"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 1)", "question_index": 20, "text": "If you were able to turn back the clock and have the knowledge and the experience as an international mediator that you have now, would you have handled the hostage negotiations with Iran any differently?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm cordial and open. The only thing I have to offer is my own integrity and an element of objectivity. I don't have any ax to grind. My ax is - to grind is to try to bring peace and an end to h"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 1)", "question_index": 21, "text": "That was an excerpt of my 1995 interview with Jimmy Carter. The following year, I spoke with him about his memoir, \"Living Faith.\" As a Southern Baptist, he was considered a progressive evangelical. I asked him about how he approached his faith in the years following his presidency.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I tried. You know, through every possible means, official and unofficial means, I tried to negotiate with or to communicate with the Ayatollah Khomeini. But he issued orders in his autocratic or -"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 1)", "question_index": 22, "text": "That's an interesting way to look at it, though, that you took an oath before God to actually serve the country. And so you felt that you had it straight with your religion, that you were in this office to serve the country. And it wasn't about your personal religious convictions when it came down to certain issues. It was about what you thought was best for the country or in the majority interest.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I've got more time now to devote to my church and my duties as a Christian in a nonpolitical fashion. I just don't have any ambitions or interest in ever seeking another public office. And the C"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 1)", "question_index": 23, "text": "While you were in the White House and while you were campaigning for president, did you feel that a lot of Americans misunderstood or misinterpreted what it meant to you to be born again?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Two or three aspects - one is that I believe in the separation of church and state, so I was very careful not to have religious services in the White House or to have religious meetings in the White H"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 1)", "question_index": 24, "text": "We're listening to my 1996 interview with Jimmy Carter. We'll hear more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that was obvious to me because the No. 1 news story of the entire 1976 campaign was an interview that I gave with Playboy magazine. And all I did was quote part of the Sermon on the Mount. And i"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 1)", "question_index": 25, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with Jimmy Carter in 1996 after the publication of his memoir \"Living Faith.\" How did you approach your prayer life in the White House? You say in your book that other presidents have brought in Billy Graham to organize, you know, worship for them, but you didn't want to do that in the White House. You thought it was a - it violated your sense of separation of church and state. So what did you do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that was obvious to me because the No. 1 news story of the entire 1976 campaign was an interview that I gave with Playboy magazine. And all I did was quote part of the Sermon on the Mount. And i"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 1)", "question_index": 26, "text": "What was your sense of prayer when you were a child, and how has your sense of prayer changed as an adult?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I worshipped as I would if I had not been in public life at all. I went to Sunday services at the First Baptist Church in Washington, which was the nearest Baptist church to the White House. Mos"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 1)", "question_index": 27, "text": "Tell me if this is too personal, OK? What were the times in your life that you thought God betrayed you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when I was a child, say, when I reached the age of 10 or teenage life, I had some very serious doubts about what I heard in church, what I heard in Sunday school, what I heard my own father teac"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 1)", "question_index": 28, "text": "The interview with Jimmy Carter we just heard was recorded in 1996 after the publication of his memoir \"Living Faith.\" After a break, we'll hear his reflections on aging, recorded after the publication of his memoir \"The Virtues Of Aging.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one of the most distressing times was in 1966. I had been a state senator two terms. I thought, after prayer, that I should run for governor of Georgia. I mounted a massive campaign all over the"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 1)", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Today we have been looking back on the life of Jimmy Carter through a series of FRESH AIR interviews. The final excerpt we'll hear today is about his relationship with his wife, Rosalynn Carter. Jimmy Carter had been under hospice care for months when Rosalynn died at age 96. By all accounts, they had a strong, loving and supportive relationship. After he lost his reelection campaign and left the White House in 1981, when he was 56, he and Rosalynn returned home to Plains, Georgia. Although they hardly retired and Carter had one of the most productive post-presidencies in American history, they faced something many retired couples face - more time home together, perhaps too much time. He and Rosalynn learned they needed to give each other a lot of private space, to keep separate except for time they'd scheduled to be together. I spoke with Jimmy Carter about this in 1998, after the publication of his book \"The Virtues Of Aging.\" I asked them how they first realized that too much time together was the source of tension.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one of the most distressing times was in 1966. I had been a state senator two terms. I thought, after prayer, that I should run for governor of Georgia. I mounted a massive campaign all over the"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 1)", "question_index": 30, "text": "Jimmy Carter's my guest. His new book is called \"The Virtues Of Aging.\" You say one thing we must do nowadays is prepare for long, drawn-out illnesses near the end of life now that there's the medical technology to sustain us through long chronic illnesses. I'm wondering if you have any thoughts about living wills or where, if any place, you'd want to draw the line if you had a debilitating chronic illness.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was after I'd left the White House that we found that we would be confronting each other in the same house all day long and not have a job outside, although we do a lot of things now outside "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 1)", "question_index": 31, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. As a matter of fact, I wrote about that in the book. My father, my mother, my - both my sisters and my brother all died from the same illness, and that is cancer. They all smoked cigarettes, and "}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 1)", "question_index": 32, "text": "You said that one of the most interesting and gratifying responsibilities at your age is to decide what to do with accumulated wealth and possessions. And you and Rosalynn are planning to leave a substantial portion of your estate to the Carter Center. And I'm wondering how you've both decided what's the right thing to do, you know, by your country and by your children - you know, how much to give to the Carter Center, how much to leave for your children. I think that's - you know, for people who are lucky enough to be in that position, it's a difficult question.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So you can see that death in our family has not been a sordid, morbid, psychologically wrenching experience. We all know we're going to pass on some time, and we've tried to approach it in a reasonabl"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 1)", "question_index": 33, "text": "Well, I want to thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In my book, I give some simple advice on what everybody should do. One fact that we can't avoid is that we have - all of us in the United States have a major heir, the same one, and that's the U.S. go"}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 1)", "question_index": 34, "text": "The interview we just heard with Jimmy Carter was recorded in 1998. He died yesterday at the age of 100. Rest in peace. Tomorrow in FRESH AIR, we'll continue our end of the year series collecting a few of the 2024 interviews we particularly enjoyed. We'll feature the interview with Mark Ruffalo. This year, he was nominated for an Oscar for his hilarious performance in \"Poor Things\" as a foppish rake who seduces Emma Stone's character. In the Marvel Cinematic Universe, he's the Hulk. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've really enjoyed it. Thank you. You had some good questions."}
{"id": null, "date": "2024-12-30", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 1)", "question_index": 35, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Today's edition was produced by Roberta Shorrock, who also directs the show. Our technical director is Audrey Bentham, with engineering today from Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Marie Baldonado, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Our cohost is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've really enjoyed it. Thank you. You had some good questions."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Happy New Year. We're continuing our holiday week series, featuring a few of the 2024 interviews we particularly enjoyed. Today, it's an interview with actor Sterling K. Brown. I've admired his work since I first saw him in the miniseries \"The People V. O.J. Simpson.\" He played Christopher Darden, one of O.J. Simpson's prosecutors, in one of the most controversial trials of the 20th century. Brown won an Emmy for that performance. Since then, he became well-known in the popular NBC series \"This Is Us,\" a show that brought many viewers to tears and won him another Emmy. He took off long enough from that job to play a prince in \"Black Panther.\" He's also appeared in comedy, including a memorable Emmy-nominated performance in \"Brooklyn Nine-Nine.\" He was nominated for an Oscar last year for his role in the Oscar-winning film \"American Fiction.\" We started our interview talking about \"American Fiction.\" It stars Jeffrey Wright as a novelist who is Black. He writes about fiction that's pretty obscure, like a novel based on the Greek tragedy \"The Persians\" by Aeschylus. No one wants to publish his new novel. It seems to him that the only books white publishers want by Black authors are books about being poor or in gangs or addicted to drugs or being a pregnant teenager. To prove his point, he writes a book conforming to those expectations, using a pen name to disguise his identity. He's offered a huge advance, the book becomes a bestseller, and he gets even more money when the film rights are sold. But the pseudonym leads to unexpected trouble. Sterling K. Brown plays the writer's brother. He's a plastic surgeon who's currently having money problems because his wife has left him and has taken half his practice after discovering he's having a gay relationship. He's just come out as gay and is going a little overboard in reconstructing his identity. The film is a funny satire about race and the publishing industry while, at the same time, probing complicated family relationships.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 1, "text": "Sterling K. Brown, welcome to FRESH AIR. So happy to have you on the show.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 2, "text": "Did you experience any of the same type of preconceptions about what it means to be authentically Black in your personal life or in your acting career?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, thank you so much for having me. I'm delighted to be here."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 3, "text": "When you were an economics major, and then you interned at the Federal Reserve, did you want to be in business or economics?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. I found it definitely when I got to Hollywood in the early 2000s - that the idea of being intelligent was something that I needed to shed. Many casting directors would be like, he's got th"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 4, "text": "OK, so you found the passion in acting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I think, at that point in time in my life, Terry, the most important thing was being able to pour back into my community in a way that was substantial. And the only way that - the primary way tha"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 5, "text": "But this reminds me of a line that you say in \"American Fiction.\" So, you know, your brother, the main character in the story...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 6, "text": "...Who's the novelist who can't get published - you say to him, like, you know, me and your sister - you're like, we're doctors. We save people. Like, what can you do - revive a sentence?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 7, "text": "And so that reminds me, like, did you worry, like, OK, so I'm not going to give back to my community through learning about economics and money - what will being an actor give back to my community? Like, what meaning...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 8, "text": "...Does that have in the larger world?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Great question."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 9, "text": "I want to talk to you about the role that you got your first Emmy for, and that's the role of Christopher Darden in \"The People V. O.J. Simpson,\" which was the first season of \"American Crime Story.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Great question, and it's something that I thought about for a while. And so when I told my mom that I was going to change my major, I knew that she would probably have some questions for me in terms o"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 10, "text": "You won an Emmy in 2016. You were - you know, Darden was one of the prosecutors - one of the two prosecutors. And he was portrayed by O.J. Simpson defenders - by people who thought O.J. was innocent - as having the job so that the prosecution could present a Black face.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 11, "text": "But Darden really, I think, deeply believed in O.J.'s guilt. So I want to play a clip from the closing argument that you make in \"The People V. O.J. Simpson\".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 12, "text": "So here we go.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 13, "text": "Now I'm going to skip ahead to the end of your closing argument.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Christopher Darden) Ladies and gentlemen, to grasp this crime, you must first understand Mr. Simpson's relationship to his ex-wife, Nicole. It was a ticking time bomb. The fuse was lit in 1985, th"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 14, "text": "When I saw the series, I thought, oh, you look so much like Christopher Darden.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Christopher Darden) He's a murderer. And he was also one hell of a great football player. But he's still a murderer."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 15, "text": "And it was just - you're so good in it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 16, "text": "You were in college at Stanford during the trial. What did you think of O.J. at the time? Did you think he was guilty or innocent?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 17, "text": "She was the main prosecutor and your partner in the trial.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm going to be honest and say, like, it was a second consideration. It wasn't the first thing on my mind. I think that was sort of what a lot of us were experiencing - was that we wanted the criminal"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 18, "text": "Did you see - as a young man...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know what I mean? Like, like, like, completely convinced that we were going to sort of, like, retell the trial, and it was going to come out the way that we wanted it to."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 19, "text": "...Did you see Christopher Darden as a traitor for prosecuting a Black man?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 20, "text": "So what changed your mind? Was it stepping into Christopher Darden's role - you know, becoming him for the series - or was it examining the facts more closely?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely - hands down, a hundred percent. He was persona non grata as far as I was concerned. Like, you're trying to take down one of our heroes. I think that's the way a lot of Black folks will rel"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 21, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Sterling K. Brown. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded one year ago with Sterling K. Brown. He's known for his performances in the films \"American Fiction\" and \"Black Panther,\" the TV series \"This Is Us,\" and the miniseries \"The People V. O.J. Simpson.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. That's yes to both of them. The DNA evidence is overwhelming. My perspective as a human being has shifted in terms of - also in terms of playing Christopher Darden - like, who was the voice for t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 22, "text": "So let's talk a little bit about \"This Is Us.\" And this is a series - this was a series - an incredibly popular series - about three siblings. And the white mother was pregnant with triplets, but only...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. That's yes to both of them. The DNA evidence is overwhelming. My perspective as a human being has shifted in terms of - also in terms of playing Christopher Darden - like, who was the voice for t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 23, "text": "...Two children survive. So the father who's also white decides, like, he'd planned on taking home three babies, and that is what he's going to do.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 24, "text": "So he adopts a baby born the same day, who was left at the door of a firehouse. Now, that baby is Black. So you're the adult version of that Black baby who grew up in the white family. So you're set apart from the family in two ways. You're the only Black person in the family, and you're only - you're the only sibling who's not a twin.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, ma'am."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 25, "text": "And part of the series set in the present, you're married to a Black woman. You have two children and later adopt a third. So, I want to play a scene from the first episode. You've been searching for your biological father, and you finally found where he lives. So you go - you drive over there, you bang on his door, and as soon as your biological father opens the door, you make a little speech. So let's start with the banging on the door.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 26, "text": "I love how that ends. So the father is played by Ron Cephas Jones who...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 27, "text": "...Died a few months ago. But I love how you casually - how he casually invites you in after this long, negative harangue about him. And you just say, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 28, "text": "Talk about deciding how to play that and whether you talked about how to play those final notes, whether you talked about it with Ron Cephas Jones?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a good turn."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 29, "text": "Did you audition with him for that scene?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So that was one of the audition scenes for the show."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 30, "text": "So, Ron Cephas Jones, who was in that scene with you, your biological father in the series, he died a few months ago. And Andre Braugher, who you also work with, and we'll talk about him a little bit later...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no. Auditioned by myself, you know. So in that scene, I remember thinking that what I understood from reading the pilot of the show, and what was very sort of surprising in terms of how it lan"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 31, "text": "...He died at the end of 2023. And then you also worked on \"Black Panther,\" and you knew Chadwick Boseman, who died of cancer at a young age, shocking...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 32, "text": "...Everybody 'cause he didn't make it public. I'm wondering if that made you think about your own mortality.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 33, "text": "Well, speaking of exercise...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. First of all, yes. And I would say even predating all of those beautiful souls transpiring was my own father who passed away at the age of 45. And so I thought about it since then when I was only"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 34, "text": "...You go around shirtless a lot.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 35, "text": "In - wait...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't go around..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 36, "text": "...Wait, wait. Your character does in \"American...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Shirtless a lot."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 37, "text": "...Fiction\" after he comes out. And so we can see your chest, and it is very ripped.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He does."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 38, "text": "So you've been in the gym a lot. So I know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He does."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 39, "text": "You're doing your part in terms of exercise.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 40, "text": "So, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Sterling K. Brown. We're going to take a short break, and then we'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I appreciate that."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 41, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. As part of our holiday week series of interviews we particularly enjoyed from 2024, we're listening to my interview with Sterling K. Brown. He costarred in the movie \"American Fiction.\" He won an Emmy for his portrayal of Prosecutor Christopher Darden in the miniseries \"The People V. O. J. Simpson\" and had a small but important role as a prince in \"Black Panther.\" He was one of the stars of the popular TV series \"This Is Us,\" where he portrayed Randall Pearson, the adopted Black son in a white family. He won an Emmy for that role, too, and was nominated for another for his guest appearance in the comedy series \"Brooklyn Nine-Nine.\" When we left off, we were talking about how his life was changed by his father's early death. You know, so you were talking about, like, losing your father when you were 10 and he was in his 40s. You know, one of the focal points of \"This Is Us\" is the loss of the father. So much of the story is flashing back to the impact of the father and the father's death on the three siblings' lives.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I appreciate that."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 42, "text": "So I'm wondering, like, in the day-to-day world of your lifetime, how much of it has been spent thinking about the loss of your father and how much of his loss - this is a lot to ask in one question. I apologize.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 43, "text": "But how much that loss affected your sense of who you were, of your own confidence, your self-esteem, your identity? You could probably talk for hours about that, so I apologize for packing that into one interview question on a radio show", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's all good. Go for it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 44, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's all good. Go for it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 45, "text": "Oof", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hakuna matata. I will try to synthesize and make it as concise as possible. My dad is one of the most beautiful people that I had an opportunity to know in my life. And it was a short time, but it was"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 46, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hakuna matata. I will try to synthesize and make it as concise as possible. My dad is one of the most beautiful people that I had an opportunity to know in my life. And it was a short time, but it was"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 47, "text": "So your father was Sterling Brown Jr.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...In the pink Eldorado Cadillac as we washed it. And we'd listened to, like, (singing) I keep forgetting how you made it so clear - you know, whatever it was. Like, we have moments of bliss that are "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 48, "text": "But you went by your middle name, Kelby, until you were 16.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 49, "text": "Why did you go by that name, and why did you change it back to Sterling Brown and keep the K as the middle initial?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 50, "text": "So I want to mention another parallel between your life and your character Randall's life in \"This Is Us.\" Randall decides since he was adopted, he's going to kind of pay it back and adopt a girl. And the person who he adopts is in her teens, and her mother is addicted to drugs, and that's why she needs a home. And, you know, your mother adopted two children when you were in college. Were they teenagers, too? And why did your mother decide to adopt two children at that stage in her life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So my mom tells a famous story. She said when I was in kindergarten and I had to spell out my name for the teacher, I came back home and I said, Mom, I think I'm going to go by Kelby. And I said, beca"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 51, "text": "Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Good question. They were not teenagers. They were babies."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 52, "text": "That's quite a story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so my Aunt Vera, who I adore, she's always - my mom's little sister - was the collector of things in her family's life, like pets and stuff. And you would be like, she got a new cat, she got a new"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 53, "text": "There's so much that you must have related to in \"This Is Us.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I have quite a mom. I have to say that, too. She's an extraordinary human being."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 54, "text": "Yeah. Your mother must have been very - is she still alive?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 55, "text": "Sorry to hear that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mother is still alive. And here's an interesting one. I don't talk about it that often, but I'm talking about it more now because I think that the universe is calling me into some sort of action. A"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 56, "text": "My guest is Sterling K. Brown. He costarred in the film \"American Fiction\" and the NBC series \"This Is Us,\" and was in the movie \"Black Panther.\" We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Sterling K. Brown. He was nominated for an Oscar for his performance in the 2023 movie \"American Fiction.\" He won Emmys for his performances in the popular TV series \"This Is Us\" and the miniseries \"The People V. O.J. Simpson\" and was nominated for another for his guest appearance on \"Brooklyn Nine-Nine.\" In the film \"Black Panther,\" he played a prince.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much. I appreciate that - diagnosed in April of 2018. She lost the ability to speak in October of 2018 and I think has far exceeded the expectations of most doctors in terms of lifespan"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 57, "text": "Well, since we've been talking about \"This Is Us\" and how it relates to your own life, I want to play your Emmy acceptance speech for \"This Is Us,\" and this was in 2017. And in this excerpt of your acceptance speech, you're holding your Emmy, and that's what you're referring to when you say this one right here. So here's the excerpt of that speech.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much. I appreciate that - diagnosed in April of 2018. She lost the ability to speak in October of 2018 and I think has far exceeded the expectations of most doctors in terms of lifespan"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 58, "text": "You were so funny in that, especially when you were being played off. What went through your mind when the orchestra started playing...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You can play. You can play. You can play. I didn't get that loud - nobody got that loud music. Writers, I love you. You are our life's blood. Our producers and directors, I love..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 59, "text": "...To tell you that your time was up, get off the stage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 60, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my goodness. That is - I - the fact that you played through to the end was priceless 'cause I was like - I was thinking in my mind. I was like, this is when I got cut off, isn't it?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 61, "text": "No, are you kidding? Like, it physically moved?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I was sort of surprised because, like, the microphone - they literally pulled it into the ground, as if to say, like, bro..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 62, "text": "Oh, that's so funny. I just figured maybe they would, like, mute it or something, but they physically lowered it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it physically - like, it came - you know, like, it had a hole in the ground that it started to retract back into. And I was like, well..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 63, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, they physically lowered it, and it was like, it's time for you to go, sir."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 64, "text": "Well, you protested. You said, you didn't play music this loud for anyone else.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I was a little in my feelings - I'll be perfectly honest, Terry. But I was like, OK, I still won, and I still got a chance to share with a lot of the folk - the people - what it is that I want to "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 65, "text": "So that was all spontaneous - you hadn't rehearsed, like, say I'm played off, here's what I think I'll say?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", that's what I was thinking to myself."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 66, "text": "No, oh, that's great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no - completely spontaneous."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 67, "text": "While you were shooting \"This Is Us,\" you got away long enough to shoot a couple of scenes in \"Black Panther.\" First of all, what did \"Black Panther\" comics mean to you when you were growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But thank you. Those speeches - when you're blessed and have an opportunity to win something, you want to be able to say something that sticks to people's ribs. And I felt like it was a bit of history"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 68, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't read the comic..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 69, "text": "So how did you know it was happening? And since you couldn't get away for long because you were shooting \"This Is Us,\" how did you manage to get a role in it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 70, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I auditioned for it, and I felt like I did, you know, a good job. And I had a meeting with Ryan Coogler, the director of \"Black Panther,\" and he goes, listen, you're not quite right for this one ro"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 71, "text": "My guest is Sterling K. Brown. He was nominated for an Oscar for his performance in the 2023 movie \"American Fiction\" and was one of the stars of the NBC series \"This Is Us.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded one year ago with Sterling K. Brown. He's known for his performances in the films \"American Fiction\" and \"Black Panther,\" in the TV series \"This Is Us\" and the miniseries \"The People V. O.J. Simpson.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I die in the thing. I can't believe they killed you. Well, I had to get back to my day job as well. So the fact that I was able to moonlight in something that did wind up making history is something t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 72, "text": "I want to play another clip. And you talked about Andre Braugher...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I die in the thing. I can't believe they killed you. Well, I had to get back to my day job as well. So the fact that I was able to moonlight in something that did wind up making history is something t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 73, "text": "...And how your lives intersected and how you looked up with him. You got a chance to do an episode of the comedy series \"Brooklyn Nine-Nine\" with him. And in the series, he plays a police captain, and Andy Samberg plays a police detective. And, of course, Andre Braugher was famous for being a police detective in \"Homicide: Life On The Street,\" a terrific series that really showed off his acting quite well. So this is basically a parody - this episode of \"Brooklyn Nine-Nine\" is a parody of a famous episode from \"Homicide\"...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 74, "text": "...In which Braugher and one of the other detectives are interrogating one witness for the entire episode, for the entire hourlong episode. And that's what happens in the episode of \"Brooklyn Nine-Nine,\" that Braugher and Samberg are interrogating you. You play a dentist who is accused of murdering his partner, his dental partner.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 75, "text": "And they want to get a confession out of you, and you keep coming up with answers. So let's play a clip from that episode.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 76, "text": "It is such a great scene, and your timing is so good. I really want to see you in more comedy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Philip Davidson) Trust me. Dana wasn't buying her own drinks."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 77, "text": "Can you talk about, like, doing that scene and, like, getting the timing right and getting the kind of nonchalance that your character is aiming for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much. It made me smile, just listening to it. It was so much fun to do."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 78, "text": "Thank you so much for coming to our show. It's really been great to talk with you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It is just dogged repetition. And you show up - one thing you learn in the world of television is that you don't get a lot of rehearsals. So you do a lot of that work on your own by yourself so "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 79, "text": "Me too. My interview with Sterling K. Brown was recorded in January 2024. He stars in an upcoming Hulu series called \"Paradise,\" playing a security guard for the president. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll conclude our holiday week series with music star and actress Selena Gomez, one of the stars of the popular series \"Only Murders In The Building,\" and Alex Van Halen, who wrote a memoir about his relationship with his younger brother, Eddie, and their band Van Halen. Eddie died of cancer in 2020. I hope you'll join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at @nprfreshair.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, the pleasure has been all mine. Thank you for having me, and I look forward to doing it again."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-01", "guest": "Sterling K Brown", "title": "Sterling K. Brown recommends taking it 'moment to moment,' on screen and in life", "question_index": 80, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross. All of us at FRESH AIR wish you a very happy, healthy, and fulfilling 2025.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, the pleasure has been all mine. Thank you for having me, and I look forward to doing it again."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. On this day of Jimmy Carter's funeral, which has also been declared a national day of mourning, we listen back to more excerpts of the interviews I recorded with him over the years. At 100 years old, Carter was the oldest living former president in American history with one of the longest and most productive public lives after leaving the White House. Those post-presidency years were devoted to public service. He and his wife, Rosalynn, teamed up with Habitat for Humanity, building or repairing thousands of homes in the U.S. and other countries around the world including Mexico, South Africa, Haiti, Vietnam, India and the Philippines. He flew around the world to war zones to mediate violent conflicts and monitor elections in fledgling democracies. And Carter wrote several memoirs about his presidency, his childhood, his deep religious faith, his reflections on getting older and life after leaving office. That gave me the opportunity to interview him several times. We'll start with a side of Jimmy Carter most Americans were unaware of when he was in the White House, his lifelong interest in and love of poetry. When we spoke in 1995, he just published a collection of his poems, titled \"Always A Reckoning.\" Carter was the first former president to publish a book of poems.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 1, "text": "What do you think the assumptions are that people make when they hear a former president is also a poet?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 2, "text": "And hid them", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it's been a rare thing in history to have a president who was a published poet. I imagine a lot of folks who have been in the White House have written a poem or two."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it's been a rare thing in history to have a president who was a published poet. I imagine a lot of folks who have been in the White House have written a poem or two."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 4, "text": "Why? Why incompatible?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And hid them, yes. Or shared them with maybe a wife, you know, on Mother's Day or something of that kind. But I think to write poetry seriously is probably considered to be incompatible with being a p"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 5, "text": "Or inspirational or calls to patriotism.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's just not something that's been done in the past except a couple of times in ancient history. And my own background, of course, is in engineering and nuclear physics, and not in literature. "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 6, "text": "I'd like you to read a poem called \"Of My Father's Cancer, And His Dreams.\" And you're welcome to introduce this if you'd like or to just begin the poem, but I think it would be nice for you to tell us first when you wrote it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think so. In this particular book, I put together about 45 poems and tried to make them as diverse as I could in their character."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 7, "text": "Have you read that poem - did you read that poem to your family before publishing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've written most of these poems in the last five years. And what I've done ordinarily is revise each poem maybe a dozen or 20 times, trying to simplify them, make sure we had the right word and that "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 8, "text": "Yeah, I was thinking of Rosalynn, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All my family, I did. I read it to Rosalynn."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 9, "text": "In your dedications in this book, you dedicate the book in part to your father who - let me turn to the page, actually, so I can quote it. You write, to my father, Earl, who labored all his life but also loved the good times, his innate goodness curbed by the Southern mores he observed. A man who relished discipline, who reached out to his son with love, always tempered with restraint. What were the Southern mores he observed that you were referring to there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But my father and my mother, and both my sisters and my brother have all died with cancer. And so I don't have anyone to read it to, except my wife, who's a very good editor and who is familiar with a"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 10, "text": "Did you ever try to change him on that? Do you think it's possible for a son to change a father?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of separate but equal. Of discrimination against African American neighbors. Although, he wouldn't have put it in those terms. He would not have thought it was discrimination."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 11, "text": "So you were still pretty young.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, those were times - my daddy died in 1953."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 12, "text": "OK, it's time for another poem.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was in the Navy. And I remember once I came home from a submarine cruise. And I was bragging on the fact that we had been to Jamaica, and the governor general of Jamaica had invited our submar"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 13, "text": "I have another request.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is called \"Itinerant Songsters Visit Our Village.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 15, "text": "And it's really a poem about poetry and writing poetry and learning to write poetry.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 16, "text": "Do you know, by the way - let me stop you here...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is really what precipitated my getting serious about writing poems. Some famous poems came down to Plains to do a reading, along with country music singer Tom T. Hall. One of these poets was Mill"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 17, "text": "...That his daughter, Lucinda Williams, is a wonderful singer and songwriter?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 18, "text": "Yeah, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She's great, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 19, "text": "I was wondering if you liked her music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She won a..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yeah, right. Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do. I have two CDs by her, and I was very pleased when she won one of the top Grammy Awards this past year."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 21, "text": "Yeah", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm very pleased with this, and this - I'm glad you know that. That's wonderful (ph)."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm very pleased with this, and this - I'm glad you know that. That's wonderful (ph)."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 23, "text": "I like this poem a lot, and I like how you describe in the poem you trying to, you know, write about great themes - war and peace and troubling visions - and then you turn to specific details and very specific things that happened to you. Tell me more about how you learned to do that in your poems.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But Miller Williams has been a lot of help to me. But this is a poem about their coming to Plains. It's called \"Itinerant Songsters Visit Our Village.\" (Reading) When some poets came to Plains one nig"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 24, "text": "Did Miller Williams give you advice about that, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was fumbling around trying to say great things and trying to emulate famous poem - poets. And I was having a lot of difficulty. The poems didn't quite come together, and then kind of a breakth"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 25, "text": "Jimmy Carter's poetry collection is titled \"Always A Reckoning.\" We'll hear more of my 1995 interview with him after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, he did. Most of my poems are factual, and Miller used to make fun of me because I would be factual in my poems. He said, forget about exactness. It's the words and the thought that means more. Bu"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Today we're remembering Jimmy Carter. Let's get back to my 1995 interview with him about his poetry collection, \"Always A Reckoning.\" When you're president of the United States, you're the most, you know, important person in the country, and you have the most power and so on. And then when, you know, fairly late in life, you start writing poetry more seriously than you ever wrote it before...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, he did. Most of my poems are factual, and Miller used to make fun of me because I would be factual in my poems. He said, forget about exactness. It's the words and the thought that means more. Bu"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 27, "text": "I mean, you're getting started, you know, pretty late with that and everything. There might be this feeling, well, how could I possibly be any good? And as former president, I'm only allowed to do things that I can really excel in.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 28, "text": "Did you ever go through a crisis about that and think, like, if you wrote poems, they'd better be the best poems, otherwise you wouldn't be able to measure up to your own standards.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 29, "text": "Anonymously", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I did. And I have to say that I approached it fairly tentatively. I didn't just all of a sudden decide, I'm going to write a book of poems. I wrote a few poems, and then I submitted them to maga"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 30, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I did. And I have to say that I approached it fairly tentatively. I didn't just all of a sudden decide, I'm going to write a book of poems. I wrote a few poems, and then I submitted them to maga"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 31, "text": "Well, did you get rejection slips from anybody?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "with experience. And finally, I decided to take about 45 of my poems and to put them together in this book."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 32, "text": "And did that hurt a lot?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, a few."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 33, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I submitted a few poems to some of the more prominent magazines. And the first time I sent a few poems to my present publisher, he said that he didn't think that a poetry book was appropriate for me"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then I sent it to him, Peter Osnos. He says he has it on his wall in his office, but it's a totally incomprehensible, ugly collection of words that has no meaning to me, no rhythm, no rhyme. The w"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 35, "text": "There's another poem I'm going to ask you to read called \"Difficult Times.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Of finally saying, OK, I'm going to publish the poems that I like. I'm going to let them be truly expressive of my inner feelings, and if people like them, fine. If they don't, OK. So far, the revi"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 36, "text": "Was that a poem to Rosalynn?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. It's a very brief poem. That's the title of it, \"Difficult Times.\" (Reading) I try to understand. I've seen you draw away and show the pain. It's hard to know what I can say to turn things right a"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 37, "text": "So did you give her the poem after you wrote it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, when we were having some difficult times. And that first version of the poem is not this one. I rewrote it several times to simplify it and to abbreviate it. But I think we all go through those t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 38, "text": "Did that help...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 39, "text": "...Warm things up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we got along all right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 40, "text": "You're still together", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we're still..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 41, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we're still..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 42, "text": "Jimmy Carter recorded in 1995, after the publication of his poetry collection, \"Always A Reckoning.\" In 2005, I spoke with him about his book \"Endangered Values: America's Moral Crisis.\" Carter was the first American president to tell the public that he was born again. But he believed in the separation of church and state, and in this memoir, he focused on his concerns about the intertwining of politics and religion. You were the first president to say that you were born again. And you said that during the election when you were asked by a reporter.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We're now approaching our 49th wedding anniversary, so, yes, it did."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 43, "text": "After you proclaimed that you were born again, how did that change perceptions of you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 44, "text": "When you were president, did you ever find that your political position and your religious views ever came into conflict?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a very serious mistake for me to make. I was actually in the backyard of a friend in North Carolina, and I was asked, are you a born-again Christian? And I answered truthfully, yes, I am. I had"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 45, "text": "Jimmy Carter recorded in 2005. Our remembrance of Jimmy Carter will continue with more of that conversation and another interview I recorded with him and his daughter, Amy, when she was 25 about family life in the White House after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. There was one issue in particular that was a very serious problem for me, and that was abortion. I have never believed that Jesus Christ, whom I worship, would approve abortions, unless the mothe"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 46, "text": "This is", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. There was one issue in particular that was a very serious problem for me, and that was abortion. I have never believed that Jesus Christ, whom I worship, would approve abortions, unless the mothe"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 47, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're remembering Jimmy Carter with excerpts of interviews I recorded with him over the years. Let's get back to the one we recorded in 2005, 30 years after Carter's successful campaign for the presidency. George W. Bush was president at the time. Now, you mentioned that when you publicly stated that you were born-again when you were running for president that it worked against you. People misunderstood what you meant by that. And you thought it hurt you in the election. It's funny because, you know, President Bush is born-again. He discussed that when he was running for office and, you know, it seemed to help him very much in his campaign. So would you reflect a little bit about what's changed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. There was one issue in particular that was a very serious problem for me, and that was abortion. I have never believed that Jesus Christ, whom I worship, would approve abortions, unless the mothe"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 48, "text": "Let me ask you about evolution since, you know, intelligent design is before the courts now. How do you deal with the fact that science tells us different things than the Bible does about the creation of men and women and the Earth?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what's changed is what I described earlier, that is that the rise of fundamentalism has affected both politics, including national policy in domestic and foreign affairs, and also has affected t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 49, "text": "Jimmy Carter recorded in 2005 after he'd written his book \"Endangered Values: America's Moral Crisis.\" Coming up, family life in the White House. We'll listen to an excerpt of an interview I did with Carter and his daughter, Amy, when she was 25. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in \"Our Endangered Values,\" the book, I describe my feelings about this quite thoroughly. I studied nuclear physics when I was a young man. I was one of the originators of the nuclear submarine "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 50, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're remembering Jimmy Carter by listening back to excerpts of interviews I recorded with him after he left the White House. In 1995, I spoke with Carter and his daughter, Amy. She was 9 when her father was elected president. She was 25 at the time of this interview. She and her father had just finished a children's book. Jimmy did the writing, and Amy did the illustrations. Their book, \"The Little Baby Snoogle-Fleejer,\" was based on stories Carter used to tell his children. It was about a lonely boy who's befriended by an intimidating underwater creature known as a snoogle-fleejer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in \"Our Endangered Values,\" the book, I describe my feelings about this quite thoroughly. I studied nuclear physics when I was a young man. I was one of the originators of the nuclear submarine "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 51, "text": "Jimmy Carter, do you think you invented an undersea creature in part because you were stationed on a submarine in your military days?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this was a hero of a lot of stories that I told my children beginning maybe 40, 45 years ago. And this is a monster, but a young one, but still very large and extremely ugly. And he comes out of"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 52, "text": "Amy Carter, your father describes the little baby snoogle-fleejer as an ugly creature. How did you decide to draw it, what - the colors you used, the shape you gave it? Where did you get your visual impression from? How did you come up with it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think so. Actually, I probably began telling these stories when I was still on a surface ship. But I always had submarines in the back of my mind. And one of the submarines I was on was a kill"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 53, "text": "I should say for our listeners who are hearing unusual sounds in the background that that is not the snoogle-fleejer. That's actually the sounds of construction near the NPR studio in New York. So what was it like for the two of you to collaborate on something? You know, sometimes it's very hard for family members to work together, particularly to learn to drive from each other. But what was I like to work on a book together? I mean, Jimmy Carter, you're the father and therefore are used to being in control or wanting to have control, but that's not the attitude to have when you're collaborating...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I actually looked at a lot of fish and old National Geographics. And I wanted to have his skin be sort of modeled - and I guess the only - perhaps I didn't really try to make him as ugly as I could ha"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 54, "text": "...With somebody.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 55, "text": "Amy, I know that there was a period when you were at Brown University when you engaged in a student protest against CIA recruiting on campus. That ended up in a big court case. You spent a lot of time away from your actual school work and ended up, I believe, being expelled. I'm wondering if that was a turning point in you deciding what you wanted to do, I mean, what you wanted to study and what you wanted to be. I mean, were you pursuing art then, or did that kind of crisis get you onto a different and ultimately maybe more satisfying course?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had been through a horrible experience writing a book together with my wife a few years ago called \"Everything To Gain.\" It almost destroyed a marriage of 48 years because it was about a traumatic e"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 56, "text": "You went to Memphis College of Art.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I definitely think so. I was actually pursuing art to some degree at Brown. But I guess it really made me consider what kind of environment I really felt comfortable in instead of, like, the idea "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 57, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Another thing was that Amy had been very active in demonstrations against apartheid in South Africa."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 58, "text": "Amy, it sounds like you're a mix of very shy and defiant.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And she had already been arrested or detained three times before that. She was very active in college as a leader in that respect but, at the same time, I think, very withdrawn and - if Amy will excus"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 59, "text": "So, Jimmy Carter, you were governor and president. Was there much time when you were in those positions to actually tell stories to Amy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's one reason that we don't really argue with Amy when she tells us that she's decided to do something - the defiant part."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 60, "text": "How does a first family put aside time as family time? What family time did you actually have together in the White House?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think never enough. You know, this is something that you always find to be startling when you look back and maybe tabulate how many hours you actually spend with your sons or daughter whom you reall"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 61, "text": "Amy, how much family time did you actually have in the White House years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'll let Amy answer that, too, but I stayed, you know, in the Oval office and worked pretty hard. And we had three grown sons and Rosalynn, who were out a lot, who would meet with elderly people"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 62, "text": "How often would you have dinner together?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I actually think, from discussions with both my parents, that they feel - are more concerned about that than I remember or than I was at the time because I really remember it as being very frequent. L"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 63, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...For reading..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 64, "text": "I completely identify. I completely identify. I used to bring a book with me to a lot of family events and be roundly chastised for it. But, you know, I used to be really bored, to be honest, with a lot of adult events when I was a kid. I was like, they're talking about adult things, and, you know, I don't care. I'd rather watch TV. But, Amy, when you were surrounded by adult events, it was, you know, like, presidents from other countries and, you know, probably, you know, famous performers who are doing White House performances and things like that. Were you interested in these very famous adults, or were they uninteresting to you also?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...At the table."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 65, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's several that I remember meeting that I was really drawn to and happy to have known - just kind of mixed group. But Sadat I remember very vividly. He's one of the people that I met that I think"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 66, "text": "Were they really long? They were probably fake.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And her fingernails - I still remember her fingernails because I thought they were so beautiful."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 67, "text": "Oh, that's nice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But she was very sweet to me, too. She..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 68, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. She spoke to me - I feel like she spoke to me about an hour alone, which, I think, made me feel adult..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 69, "text": "Jimmy Carter and his daughter, Amy, recorded in 1995. We'll conclude our tribute to him after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I remember when King Hussein came to the White House the first or second time with his sons, and we had - I think Rosalynn had briefed Amy, you know, very carefully about, you know, your royal highnes"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 70, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. When I interviewed Jimmy Carter in December 2001 about his memoir \"Christmas In Plains\" - he grew up in Plains, Georgia - it was at the beginning of a somber holiday season when the country was still mourning the losses of the September 11 attacks.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I remember when King Hussein came to the White House the first or second time with his sons, and we had - I think Rosalynn had briefed Amy, you know, very carefully about, you know, your royal highnes"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 71, "text": "I would like to wish you a merry Christmas, but it strikes me as not exactly as a merry period. And I'm wondering what language you're using when you're sending your best sentiments about Christmas this year. Are you using the word merry?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I remember when King Hussein came to the White House the first or second time with his sons, and we had - I think Rosalynn had briefed Amy, you know, very carefully about, you know, your royal highnes"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 72, "text": "Boy, I bet you get a lot of frequent flyer miles through your work with the Carter Center, travelling around the world.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we're sending a message of a peaceful Christmas, a Christmas filled with love, wishing for harmony among people and families who have different faiths. I think this year is more of a wish for pe"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 73, "text": "Are you a member of all the VIP clubs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we - you'd be amazed at how many frequent flier miles..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 74, "text": "You fly first class with the miles most of the time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 75, "text": "Jimmy Carter recorded in 2001. If you missed the first program in our two-part series remembering Carter, you can listen to it on our podcast or stream it at freshair.npr.org. We're grateful to have had him on our show several times and to be able to reflect on his years of service to our country and his commitment to working for affordable housing, democracy and peace around the world. Rest in peace.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I enjoy doing that, and I think that kind of brings out maybe something of the spirit of Christmas."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-09", "guest": "Jimmy Carter", "title": "Former President Jimmy Carter: The 'Fresh Air' interviews (Part 2)", "question_index": 76, "text": "Today's edition was produced by our executive producer Danny Miller, and our director Roberta Shorrock. Our technical director is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Anne Marie Baldonado, Sam Briger, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi and Anna Bauman. Some of these earlier interviews were produced by Amy Salit. Our digital media producers are Molly Seavy-Nesper and Sabrina Siewert. Our cohost is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I enjoy doing that, and I think that kind of brings out maybe something of the spirit of Christmas."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Suze Rotolo, welcome to FRESH AIR, and thanks for being here.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Suze Rotolo became an artist and taught at the Parsons School of Design. She married and had a son. In 2011, she died from lung cancer at the age of 67. Three years before that, she spoke to Terry Gro"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 1, "text": "You met Dylan at a marathon folk concert at the Riverside Church in New York in 1961. He wasn't well-known yet. He'd only recently arrived in Greenwich Village. You'd already been living there. What attracted you to him then? What did you know of him when you first started seeing him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 2, "text": "In Dylan's biographical book \"Chronicles, Volume I,\" he writes about you in the end of the book, and I want to read some of the things he says about you. He says, (reading) right from the start, I couldn't take my eyes off her. She was the most erotic thing I'd ever seen. She was fair-skinned and golden-haired, full-blood Italian. The air was suddenly filled with banana leaves. We started talking, and my head started to spin. Cupid's arrow had whistled by my ears before, but this time it hit me in the heart, and the weight of it dragged me overboard. (Reading) Susie was 17 years old, from the East Coast, had grown up in Queens, raised in a left-wing family. Her father had worked in a factory and had recently died. She was involved in the New York art scene, painted and made drawings for various publications, worked in graphic design and in off-Broadway theatrical productions, also worked on civil rights committees. She could do a lot of things. Meeting her was like stepping into the tales of \"1001 Arabian Nights.'\" And then he compares you to a Rodin sculpture come to life and says, (reading) she reminded me of a libertine heroine. She was just my type. What - how does that description sound to you? Do you hear yourself in that description?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there was a folk music club, Gerde's Folk City in the Village, and I used to go there. And he was performing with other people, or he'd play backup harmonica for other groups. And it was kind - "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Everyone knows now that Bob Dylan was born Robert Zimmerman, and he grew up in Minnesota. What did he tell you about his past when you met him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that's wonderful and generous and a lovely thing that he wrote. And he captured that sense of being young and meeting somebody and being overwhelmed by feelings for them. And that's what young"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 4, "text": "But there are other things he told you about his past - that he was abandoned at a young age in New Mexico and went to live with a traveling circus.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, at that time, when I met him, I think it was the time when we all were - people were coming to the Village to find or lose themselves, and you lived very much in the present. So I don't think an"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 5, "text": "So how did you find out that his last name was actually Zimmerman?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. He used to tell those stories. Well, everyone used to tell stories like that. Only his were wilder and funnier, and they would contradict each other. And people would wait around to see what the "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 6, "text": "Now, you said that, you know, just as he didn't want to be too forthcoming about his upbringing and his family, you felt the same way, too. But you were from Queens, New York, and your parents were both communists. And you had to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was - he had - we had come home. We were living by then together on West Fourth Street, and we had come home one evening, and he was a bit in his cups, and he took his wallet out of his pants and e"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 7, "text": "...Grow up with some secrecy because you grew up...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 8, "text": "...During the McCarthy era.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 9, "text": "So you couldn't very well go around talking about your communist parents.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Now, you write about how Dylan had to develop and present an image to the outside world. And you write, (reading) much time was spent in front of the mirror trying on one wrinkled article of clothing after another until it all came together to look as if Bob had just gotten up and thrown something on. Image was all.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I couldn't until 1989. I didn't feel comfortable saying that. So that was why, to give you an idea of how secrecy would make sense in something like that. I could understand people not wanting to "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 11, "text": "I found it so amusing to read that, to think that, you know, Dylan was trying on all these clothes, trying to look, you know, authentically like he didn't care.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 12, "text": "While we're talking about image, let's talk about the cover - the now-famous cover from \"The Freewheelin' Bob Dylan,\" the cover that you're on with him walking down a partially snow-covered street. He has his hands in his pockets and his shoulders up because it's cold. And you have your arms wrapped around one of his arms. You're wearing, like, a green trench coat that's tied around the waist, and you have nearly knee-high boots over your pants. And you look really in tune with each other. It's such a romantic cover. I mean, what woman didn't want to be on Dylan's arm in that cover? What woman didn't want to be in your place", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Well, it was the image of being a rambling, gambling folk singer, so you couldn't look neatly pressed. After all, also, to give him a little credit, they all did that. You know, they all had to h"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 13, "text": "? So tell us how that cover came to be.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Well, it was the image of being a rambling, gambling folk singer, so you couldn't look neatly pressed. After all, also, to give him a little credit, they all did that. You know, they all had to h"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was all very casual. And the apartment was very small, and the photographer came, and the publicity guy from Columbia came. So then they figured they'd start taking some pictures in the apartment o"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well, he was freezing, you say, in part, because he wore this light suede jacket...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...So many layers on. And he was freezing, and I was freezing and had more clothes on. It was very cold that day."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 16, "text": "... 'cause it looked good", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 18, "text": "Even though he knew he was going to be really cold.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Image, image."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 19, "text": "And who can blame him? It did look really good.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yeah. I mean, I don't want to sound harsh about this clothes thing, because who wouldn't want to look right on an album cover? It's, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It looked good. He had impeccable taste."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 21, "text": "...Really important. I think who wouldn't...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 22, "text": "...Want to choose the right article of clothing and risk being cold", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 23, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 24, "text": "How did that album cover change your life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it's true. Suffer for beauty, isn't it that what you..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 25, "text": "I think one of the problems for young women who fall in love with men older, even if they're just slightly older - particularly if that man becomes very famous - is that you risk this kind of mentor-mentee relationship where, you know, the woman is expected to be the learner looking up to the man. And he teaches her everything he knows. And it could really be a kind of uncomfortable relationship as opposed to, like, a relationship of equals. But when you and Dylan met, you had so much to learn from each other. You really admired his music and had so much to learn from that. He was really interested in learning about your world. You were working in the Civil Rights Movement. You were working in avant-garde theater. He learned about the music of Weill and Brecht through the fact that you were working on a Brecht production. And he writes in his memoir about how it really changed him to be exposed to that music. You exposed him to art that he was unaware of because you're an artist yourself. I was glad to see that, to see how much you had to learn from each other.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Suze Rotolo speaking to Terry Gross in 2008 - more after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2008 interview with Suze Rotolo, who wrote a memoir about her younger "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 26, "text": "You decided to leave for Perugia, Italy. You were supposed to go there after high school. You'd had a trip planned, but because of a car accident, you never made it. And then you moved to Greenwich Village, and then you met Dylan and so on. But the opportunity was offered to you again by your mother, so you decided to leave for Perugia. It was a very difficult decision for you. What was his reaction when you told him you were going?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We did. We were very curious, and we were both in search of poetry. And we fed each other's curiosity, and - well, 'cause I was from New York City also, you know, and he was from Hibbing, Minnesota. S"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 27, "text": "Why did you go?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he didn't want me to go, but at the same time, he didn't want to put pressure on me. But I learned later from a friend that he was furious when she sympathized with my - she said, well, you shou"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 28, "text": "Greenwich Village.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In the end, I think I went for many reasons, and one being because I couldn't stand the arguments anymore that were going on in my own head of, should I or shouldn't I? And it did seem like a good thi"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 29, "text": "Is the song \"Boots Of Spanish Leather\" written about your leaving for Italy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, Greenwich Village was getting - it was so much the folk music scene. And I wasn't a musician, and I couldn't keep on obsessing about folk music the way the musicians would. So it also seemed like"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 30, "text": "And the experience he was going through was the experience of missing you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, most of the songs that he's written, I hate to say, oh, this is written about me or this. But that's a good example of a song that is a fiction based on an experience he was going through. Y"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 31, "text": "So the fiction is that you weren't in Spain, you were in Italy. And did he ever ask for boots of Spanish leather?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, so that's a good example of how it becomes art. Your life experience, you translate it into art. It serves a purpose for the music you're making or the art you're making."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 32, "text": "Well, here's the song we've been talking about, \"Boots Of Spanish Leather.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I had a pair, though, of boots of Spanish leather at some point."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 33, "text": "After about eight months in Perugia, you came back to Greenwich Village, and you write that during your absence, he suffered in public. You didn't get a friendly reception when you returned. A lot of people, you say, thought that you'd been cold and indifferent to someone who loved you - and that some people - some of the folk singers deliberately sang songs that Dylan had written about his heartache, as well as any ballad that pointed a finger at a cruel lover, when you were around", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University. We're featuring interviews with three people depicted in the new film \"A Complete Unknown\" about Bob Dylan'"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University. We're featuring interviews with three people depicted in the new film \"A Complete Unknown\" about Bob Dylan'"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 35, "text": "And you say, (reading) it was as if every letter Bob had written to me and every phone call he had made had been performed in a theater in front of an audience. What do you mean by that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 36, "text": "Well, you moved back to Greenwich Village and you got together, but then you eventually moved out of the apartment that you shared with Dylan. What was the breaking point for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I felt it was very - after all, I was - I've always been a shy person. So to have this relationship kind of thrown right out there in public was very horrible. I thought it was terrible that he "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 37, "text": "Did you feel like you were always competing for his attention with other women who wanted it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was all this stuff that was going on around his fame. And it was - there was so much pressure. I just felt that there was no longer - I no longer had a place in this world of this music and f"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 38, "text": "This might be too personal, so if it is you just let me know. When Dylan started seeing Joan Baez - and that was such a kind of - there was such a public interest in their relationship because they were both famous singers - what was that like for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I didn't want to be in that kind of a situation at all. I didn't feel there was a competition. I just felt there was just - he was leaving for another world and another place. And he would, like, "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 39, "text": "So was that difficult for you to see him with another woman in such a public way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it doesn't have to get personal if we just keep it at this, like to say that she - he was singing the songs that she needed to sing, because she was just singing beautiful ballads with that beau"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 40, "text": "Do people still recognize you from the \"Freewheelin'\" album?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, by then, it was pretty much I was detaching from him. It was difficult because it became so public. People could see, oh, God, they are definitely going to be a couple here, and what are you goi"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 41, "text": "Yeah. Don't we all?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 42, "text": "But, you know, still, it doesn't mean you're not recognizable.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 43, "text": "Well, I want to thank you so much for talking with us. Good luck with your memoir.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, for those who notice those things, yes. I mean, otherwise, no. I mean, it's a funny kind of recognition. I mean, it's people who are Dylanphiles. You know, Dylanophiles, or however I could say t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 44, "text": "When did you start moving your repertoire toward more contemporary and political songs?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry Gross spoke with Joan Baez in 1987 upon the publication of her autobiography, \"A Voice To Sing With.\""}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 45, "text": "You've, during your career, sung a lot of songs by Bob Dylan, who was your good friend and, for a short time, your lover. How did you meet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think my courtship with ballads took maybe two years of my life in Cambridge in '59, '60. And then as soon as I had any relationship at all with civil rights movement - and I started that in '"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 46, "text": "Well, you were more established than he was at the time, and you took him on an American tour that you were doing and used to introduce him in your act.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Meet Bob. Somebody said, you've got to come to Greenwich Village. There's this incredible guy who writes music, and I had been told by a number of people the same thing. And so I went to see him, and "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 47, "text": "Well, that really helped him get known, and then shortly thereafter, he went on an English tour and took you with him, except he didn't share the spotlight with you the way you had shared it with him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I did. Yeah, I'd introduce him. And my audience - I mean, you know, they're trained into absolute silence to listen to the Madonna singer nubile folk songs. And on would come this little scruff "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 48, "text": "Let's talk about this effect on you when you were touring England with him and weren't getting called onto stage and weren't sharing the spotlight with him. How did it affect you emotionally?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's true. I don't really enjoy telling Dylan stories over the air, but I would say that in what I wrote about Bob, which is - I think has surprised people because it's very candid, I open myself up"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 49, "text": "Do you still sing songs by him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I would talk about that in a grander sense, in general, somebody who came into an identity at age 18, as I said. You know, and I thought it was pretty terrific to be the Madonna and got lots and"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 50, "text": "You know, one thing that strikes me about your early career is that it was a combination of selflessness and ego. Do you know - I guess you seemed, on stage, like a very selfless person who was pouring out her heart for the larger good. And yet you get so fed by audiences that you become very ego-involved with that attention.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Yeah. They're marvelous. They're the best that anybody wrote, in my opinion, for the things that we needed and the things that we did in the '60s. They are really a gold mine."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 51, "text": "Well, in the 1960s, you met Bob Dylan through Dylan's record producer of the time, Tom Wilson. And this was in what year, about?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Joan Baez speaking with Terry Gross in 1987. Coming up, Terry's interview from 1998 with one more person portrayed in the new Bob Dylan biopic, Al Cooper, who played the famous organ opening on \"Like "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 52, "text": "Sixty-five. And Tom Wilson had just cut Dylan's first electric single, \"Subterranean Home Sick Blues.\" And he invited you to watch Dylan at a session. And you were determined, you say, to do more than watch; you wanted to actually play on it. The session turned out to be the session for \"Highway 61 Revisited\" in which \"Like A Rolling Stone\" was recorded, and you played Hammond B3 on \"Like A Rolling Stone.\" How did you get to play on it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "1965."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 53, "text": "When you had told Tom Wilson that you had a part worked out in your head, did you really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was just determined to play. I was a guitar player at the time, and I stayed up all night practicing. And I had, actually, an inflated opinion of my ability as a guitar player. And I got to th"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 54, "text": "OK, so then what happened? They start performing the song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, of course not - 90% ambition."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 55, "text": "Let's hear \"Like A Rolling Stone,\" with my guest Al Kooper featured on organ.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they were rehearsing for a second, and I kind of got the thing. And the speaker to the organ was very far from where I was sitting at the organ, and it was covered by baffling so that it wouldn'"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 56, "text": "That's my guest, Al Kooper, featured on organ. Al Kooper, are you surprised at the impact that organ line had on pop music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Once upon a time, you dressed so fine, threw the bums a dime in your prime, didn't you? People call, say beware doll, you're bound to fall. You thought they were all kidding you. You used to"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 57, "text": "Now, the record that you first made with Dylan - you started a longer relationship with him, you know, playing with him. And you played with him at the Newport Festival, his first, you know, like, electric concert. And it's a concert that's famous because Dylan got booed. And in your memoir, you kind of have a different interpretation of why he was getting booed. The standard interpretation is because he had electric instruments, the audience was really angry and thought that he'd sold out, et cetera, and they were booing him. What's your explanation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, it was ironically hilarious because here's a guy that really didn't know what he was doing playing hunt-and-peck organ. And, like, a whole style of organ playing came out of that. It fou"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 58, "text": "But weren't they booing during the performance, too, though?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, many people came to that festival, which was a three-day festival - like Friday, Saturday and Sunday - to see Dylan because he was, like, the king of folk music at the time. And he was the headl"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-10", "guest": "Elle Fanning", "title": "'Fresh Air' speaks with 3 people depicted in the Dylan biopic 'A Complete Unknown'", "question_index": 59, "text": "No?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-23", "guest": "Jules Feiffer", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-winning cartoonist Jules Feiffer", "question_index": 0, "text": "You wrote for Playboy for a while. And in your book, you said that Hugh Hefner was really a terrific editor, and I think you were surprised at that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd gone around for years peddling my work, and I'd take it to editors of publishing houses because in those days, I was helping to publish little books of cartoon satire. And what I generally got fro"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-23", "guest": "Jules Feiffer", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-winning cartoonist Jules Feiffer", "question_index": 1, "text": "Let's talk about some of the presidents who you've cartooned and who are featured in your book. You said that Kennedy's face changed so much when he was in office. Did - and I remember how true that is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Hefner came along still when I was making absolutely no money - zilch money - out of the cartoon. And he was the first one to pay me to do the work that I cared about. And at the time, he said h"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-23", "guest": "Jules Feiffer", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-winning cartoonist Jules Feiffer", "question_index": 2, "text": "What about Johnson? Was he easy to do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was talking about how I had difficulty drawing Kennedy because he was so handsome, and it was hard to - he was just a conventionally handsome man, it seemed to me. And that after three years i"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-23", "guest": "Jules Feiffer", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-winning cartoonist Jules Feiffer", "question_index": 3, "text": "What about Ford?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not in the beginning because I liked him. Lyndon Johnson was the only president in all the time I've been doing cartoons who I was actually very fond of in his first nine months in office, after he su"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-23", "guest": "Jules Feiffer", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-winning cartoonist Jules Feiffer", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Ford I found wonderful to draw. Most cartoonists didn't like him. They found him so innocuous and a kind of meatball. And his very meatballism (ph) struck me as a wonderful thing to work with. A"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-23", "guest": "Jules Feiffer", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-winning cartoonist Jules Feiffer", "question_index": 5, "text": "How did you recognize Gerry Ford in him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-23", "guest": "Jules Feiffer", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-winning cartoonist Jules Feiffer", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And, yeah, Ford had this big, clumsy, shambling way of moving, not unlike that of the Frankenstein monster. So I did a drawing of Henry Kissinger as Dr. Frankenstein and Gerry Ford as being on the t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-23", "guest": "Jules Feiffer", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-winning cartoonist Jules Feiffer", "question_index": 7, "text": "I suppose we should get back to Nixon.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I had great fun with that."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-23", "guest": "Jules Feiffer", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-winning cartoonist Jules Feiffer", "question_index": 8, "text": "Is it fun, if that's the right word, to have someone like Nixon in the White House for you as a cartoonist?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We always get back to Nixon. I think I'll be probably doing cartoons on Nixon in 20 years. He'll outlast us all."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-23", "guest": "Jules Feiffer", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-winning cartoonist Jules Feiffer", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well, let's skip ahead to Reagan because of his Hollywood background. Can you use that in your cartoons?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Watergate was enormous fun. While serious people around the country like Eric Sevareid and others were talking about the tragedy of Watergate, everybody I knew was laughing like crazy. And one c"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-23", "guest": "Jules Feiffer", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-winning cartoonist Jules Feiffer", "question_index": 10, "text": "Do you think he really believes that, or do you think he's good enough - a good enough actor to make us believe that he believes it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, from the start, I described Reagan as the candidate of movie America. And I write in the book - in the introduction to this section - that there are two Americas out there. There's a real Americ"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-23", "guest": "Jules Feiffer", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-winning cartoonist Jules Feiffer", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If you see him on the screen, you know he was never a good enough actor. I think..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 0, "text": "Well, I want to connect this \"Organic Phenomena\" section of your book \"Images\" to the first movie that was actually theatrically released - \"Eraserhead,\" which really is one of the most unappetizing movies ever made, I think", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And now let's hear Terry's 1994 interview with David Lynch. Later, we feature interviews with people associated with Lynch's films. When he spoke with Terry, he had a book of photographs called \"Image"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 1, "text": ". The story is a...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And now let's hear Terry's 1994 interview with David Lynch. Later, we feature interviews with people associated with Lynch's films. When he spoke with Terry, he had a book of photographs called \"Image"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 2, "text": "What's that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 3, "text": "The story is about Henry, who gets his girlfriend pregnant, and their baby is this kind of braying creature. And I just want to play the scene where his girlfriend's mother corners Henry to see if he's the father and if he's been having sex with the daughter.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know about that."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 4, "text": "I think you were already a father when you made this movie. Was fatherhood disturbing to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Mrs. X) It's premature, but there's a baby."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 5, "text": "What was disturbing about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it was."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 6, "text": "I'm wondering if the idea of a crying infant was almost incomprehensible to you - if you felt so far away from understanding an infant, if it seemed like a creature or an animal to you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was studying to be a painter and very keen on living the art life. And in the art life, the way I saw it then, you know, it didn't have room for, you know, a family life."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 7, "text": "It sure is, and everybody interprets it differently. I mean, I've personally heard so many different interpretations...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, \"Eraserhead's\" about, you know, a couple of different things. And one of the things it's about is a family, but it could also be about other things. So I really love abstractions and things that"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 8, "text": "...Of \"Eraserhead.\" I can understand you wanting to leave it that way. Now...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 9, "text": "It sounds like you must work pretty intuitively.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think, you know, when you make a film, inside, you - I don't always know what I'm doing. And it's a process. You know, from when you start to when you finish, it's becoming something, and you have t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, this whole sense of the body and what's normal and what's abnormal and what's ugly and what's beautiful - I mean, that's not only part of \"Eraserhead.\" But it's also, in a very different way, in the film \"Elephant Man,\" which you directed, which is a beautiful film about, you know, the man who had tumors all over his body...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "David Lynch, speaking with Terry Gross in 1994. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Today, we're remembering filmmaker David Lynch, who died last week at the age of 78. Terry Gro"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 11, "text": "...During Victorian - in Victorian England and was saved from a freak show by a doctor who was interested in studying his body. Was this a subject you were already interested in? And when the movie was proposed to you, did it seem like a perfect fit to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 12, "text": "Now, you know, in the Broadway version - 'cause it was originally a Broadway show - the show prided itself on not showing any of the actual tumors on the elephant man. It was all done through kind of posture and suggestion. Your film is the opposite. I mean, it quite graphically shows terrible tumors growing from this person's face. Was that important to you - to actually picture it? I mean, at the beginning of the film, we - he has a shroud over his head, and then that shroud is lifted.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I heard the name \"The Elephant Man\" and a physical pop went off in my brain, and I knew I had to make that film. And, luckily, I was able to do it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 13, "text": "\"Eraserhead\" was your first theatrical-released movie, and it became a midnight movie classic. Did you know anything about how to market a film? Did you know how to, like, represent yourself to the film industry?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's very important. The whole idea was that you could have someone that was so horrible on the outside, yet his spirit was so, so beautiful. And the more you get to know him, the more the outside dis"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 14, "text": "What was that point like for you, when \"Eraserhead\" started to catch on and you started to get offers to do other movies?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I knew nothing about - I - when I started making films, I knew nothing about films. And after \"Eraserhead\" was finished, after five years of working on it, I didn't know if anything would ever hap"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 15, "text": "You know, it's always surprising to me that Mel Brooks, who we think of for his comedies, was so interested in having you direct \"The Elephant Man.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't get any offers. I was brought into a couple of meetings at studios, and they were just disastrous. Nobody wanted me to work just from \"Eraserhead,\" except Mel Brooks for \"The Elephant Man.\""}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 16, "text": "You know, it's almost hard for me to imagine him relating to that, yeah, pretty avant-garde eeriness and alienation in \"Eraserhead.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 17, "text": "He went in just to scout you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I was sweating bullets when Mel was in the screening room, looking at \"Eraserhead.\" And my..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 18, "text": "Now, I want to talk to you about urban landscapes, which is another theme that runs through your new book, \"Images,\" and through several of your films.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University. We're remembering the influential filmmaker David Lynch, who died last week at the age of 78. His first fil"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 19, "text": "In \"Eraserhead,\" for instance, there's always something dripping or rumbling in the background. I mean, the whole film is set against this grimy, abandoned urban decay. There seems to be two types of places that interest you most. One is the small, overtly cheerful all-American town, like Lumberton in \"Blue Velvet\" or like Twin Peaks. And the other is the decaying, abandoned industrial landscape, like in \"Eraserhead.\" But even in \"Blue Velvet,\" the evil happens in the more urban part of town. You've actually lived in both locations, haven't you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 20, "text": "Your interest in industrial settings - you know, urban decay - I mean, it's so apparent in a couple of your movies, \"Eraserhead,\" but also in \"Elephant Man.\" \"Elephant Man\" is set in the early days of industrialization in England when there's just, like, soot and grime all over the city.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. You know, where you are now, Philadelphia, is - I always say that \"Eraserhead\" is, you know, my \"Philadelphia Story.\" And when you - I came from smaller places in the Northwest. You know, I gre"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 21, "text": "And could you talk a little bit about what kind of effect you wanted the city to have in \"Elephant Man\" - what kind of visceral effect you wanted it to have on the viewers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 22, "text": "Now, I have to ask you a couple of questions about \"Blue Velvet.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was - because it was the Industrial Revolution going on at that time and because the elephant man, you know, looked the way he looked, he was almost a - like a product of that. And since I'm "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 23, "text": "Was there something in particular that inspired the story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 24, "text": "I've always wondered how you managed to take a Bobby Vinton record and turn it into a song about sexual fetishism", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not really. I - the first two or three ideas were a neighborhood, kind of a - green lawns with shadows, like, lit at night from a light bulb, and red lips, and the color blue. And the song \"Blue Velve"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 25, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not really. I - the first two or three ideas were a neighborhood, kind of a - green lawns with shadows, like, lit at night from a light bulb, and red lips, and the color blue. And the song \"Blue Velve"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 26, "text": "You think?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's all in the lyrics there."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 27, "text": "Yeah, I guess. Yeah. Did you hear it that way when you were young?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 28, "text": "I just have one other body kind of question for you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. You know, sometimes the timing has to be correct. You hear something for years, and nothing happens. And then one day, you hear it connected with some other thought that may be happening, and some"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 29, "text": "And this is about the ear in \"Blue Velvet\" - in your film \"Blue Velvet.\" The plot is set in motion when Kyle MacLachlan discovers a decapitated ear in the grass. What makes this especially disturbing is not only the ants crawling through the ear, but also that some of the hair is still attached to the ear. Could you talk at all about how you - how that image came to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 30, "text": "Well, I want to thank you so much for talking with us about your work.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't know exactly how it came, but it - Jeffrey - the ear is like a canal. It's like an opening, a little egress into another place. And it seemed like a - finally seemed like a perfect - it'"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 31, "text": "I want to ask you about \"Blue Velvet.\" You are so wonderful in that film.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "David Lynch, recorded in 1994. In his 1986 film, \"Blue Velvet,\" Isabella Rossellini played a nightclub singer who was in a very abusive relationship with Frank, a frightening character played by Denni"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 32, "text": "You played a nightclub singer who's exotic and mesmerizing but is in a weird and abusive relationship with a psycho played by Dennis Hopper.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 33, "text": "How did you get the part and what interested you in this part?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 34, "text": "I'd like to play an excerpt of a scene that you had with a young man played by Kyle MacLachlan. And then in this scene, you know, he's trying to solve the mystery of who you are and who Frank, the Dennis Hopper character, is. In this scene, you're being very seductive. You're trying to seduce him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 35, "text": "Isabella Rossellini, did you understand why this character asks to be hit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Dorothy Vallens) Hit me. Hit me. Hit me."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 36, "text": "Oh, what an interesting way of looking at it. Who beat you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I do, because I once was beaten. And when - and I remembered when I played that part, and I had to say that line, beat me, beat me, I say, why would this woman want to be beaten? And then I remem"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 37, "text": "Fine. OK. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't want to give the details of all that. I don't want to start, you know being, like, poor me, poor me. It happened, but I'm fine now."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 38, "text": "There's a scene in the movie where you're wandering around the street naked. Tell me about that scene and what you wanted your body to look at. It's not a vanity scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 39, "text": "Seems to me you really have a very analytical approach to acting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not at all. I mean, it's a - not at all. I - David Lynch told me that when he was a child coming back from school, he saw a naked woman walking in the street. And instead of getting aroused or exc"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 40, "text": "No. I - really, I mean, that you really kind of think it through on many levels.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 41, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I do, you know. I don't know. I can't tell, but this is the way I do it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 42, "text": "This is not the first time you've played an ex-con. Did that have anything to do with David Lynch wanting you for the movie?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Isabella Rossellini spoke to Terry Gross in 1994. Coming up, we hear from Nicholas Cage, who starred opposite Laura Dern in David Lynch's film \"Wild at Heart.\" This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. In"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 43, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I don't know. I know that he likes \"Raising Arizona\" and he likes the Cohen brothers. I don't know if if that had anything to do with it, though. I ran into David a couple of times. Once I ran int"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 44, "text": "Lynch's movies, like \"Blue Velvet,\" for instance, have a real dream quality to them. They're not exactly realistic. I assume there's that kind of dream quality in \"Wild At Heart.\" And if so, what kind of opportunity does that give you as an actor to do things that are beyond realism?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it was - he looks a hell of a lot like Jimmy Stewart. And after that, you know, just I heard about the book \"Wild At Heart\" and that he wanted me to read it. And we talked about possibly making it"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 45, "text": "Can you give us a sense of some of the more adventurous things that you tried in your role as Sailor?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I think the dream state is a wonderful playground, and it gives an actor license to do just about anything. Which is a hell of a lot of fun for me, because I was starting to feel kind "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 46, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, the biggest adventure for me was that I had to sing, and I'm not a singer. And I only sang once before, and that was in \"Peggy Sue Got Married.\" And the character wasn't supposed to si"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 47, "text": "One of the songs is \"Love Me Tender,\" right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...So I was pretty nervous. And I think that was a little bit of an adventure right there to be able to pull that together with him."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 48, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 49, "text": "So how do you do it? Do you - are you supposed to be impersonating Elvis or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And the other one is \"Love Me.\""}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 50, "text": "Which mannerisms did you pick up on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the thing about Sailor is he does sort of have this adopted Elvis essence to him. And I - David really wanted that to come through with the character. It's kind of a chancey thing, you know, bec"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 51, "text": ". \"Blue Velvet,\" for instance, had some very disturbing images in it. And I've been hearing from people who've screened \"Wild At Heart\" that there's some very disturbing images in it. I'm wondering what those images are, and if you are aware of that, when you're in it or if you actually have to see the film back to understand visually what's happening in it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, kind of like all that, (impersonating Elvis) how you doing, baby? Keep them white panties on."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-24", "guest": "David Lynch", "title": "Remembering Oscar-nominated filmmaker David Lynch", "question_index": 52, "text": "What's one of those moments?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, that's a good question because during the whole making of the movie, David's process with the actors, with everybody - the set people and the designers - is very positive and up and fu"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-30", "guest": "Ricky Riccardi", "title": "How Louis Armstrong became the first Black pop star", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Here's a question for you. Who do you think was the first Black pop star? The answer is Louis Armstrong, according to one of the leading experts on Armstrong's life and music, my guest Ricky Riccardi. He's just published his third book about Armstrong. This one is about Armstrong's early years - his rough childhood, his first recordings with other bands and his famous first recordings with his own group, the Hot Five and Hot Seven. As Riccardi points out, those two early groups that Armstrong led, recorded between 1926 and '28 over the course of 25 months - those recordings have been studied by up-and-coming musicians around the world because they provide the foundational language necessary to master the art of improvisation. For instrumental soloists and vocalists, Riccardi says Armstrong's innovations as both a trumpeter and vocalist set the entire soundtrack of the 20th century in motion. Riccardi has been the director of research collections at the Louis Armstrong House Museum since 2009. It's the world's largest archive focusing on one musician. It gave Riccardi access to previously inaccessible documents, including 700 hours of Armstrong recordings of his thoughts and his music, the unedited and unsweetened version of his autobiography, and several chapters of an unpublished autobiography by his second wife, Lil Hardin, who was also the pianist in the Hot Five. She wrote or co-wrote several songs Armstrong recorded and was instrumental in landing his first recording date. Through writing about Armstrong, Riccardi's new book has a lot to say about segregation in New Orleans in the first part of the 20th century. The new book is called \"Stomp Off, Let's Go,\" which is the title of a song he recorded with another band led by Erskine Tate. Ricky Riccardi, welcome to FRESH AIR. What a joy it was to do the research for this - you know, being forced to listen again to Hot Five and Hot Seven recordings. I love Armstrong's recordings, particularly like the ones through the 1940s. But you've written about all of them - like, his whole life of recordings. So let's start with one of his great recordings, and this is \"West End Blues.\" And it's what you describe as one of the most iconic recordings of the 20th century. Tell us why.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-30", "guest": "Ricky Riccardi", "title": "How Louis Armstrong became the first Black pop star", "question_index": 1, "text": "All right, we need to hear it. So here's", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, for me, this is kind of everything you need to know about Louis Armstrong in three minutes. Actually, it's probably everything you need to know about him in the first 13 seconds 'cause that un"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-30", "guest": "Ricky Riccardi", "title": "How Louis Armstrong became the first Black pop star", "question_index": 2, "text": "- here's \"West End Blues.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, for me, this is kind of everything you need to know about Louis Armstrong in three minutes. Actually, it's probably everything you need to know about him in the first 13 seconds 'cause that un"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-30", "guest": "Ricky Riccardi", "title": "How Louis Armstrong became the first Black pop star", "question_index": 3, "text": "So that was \"West End Blues,\" one of Louis Armstrong's early recordings. What year was that, Ricky?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, for me, this is kind of everything you need to know about Louis Armstrong in three minutes. Actually, it's probably everything you need to know about him in the first 13 seconds 'cause that un"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-30", "guest": "Ricky Riccardi", "title": "How Louis Armstrong became the first Black pop star", "question_index": 4, "text": "OK. So why do you consider Armstrong the first Black pop star?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "1928."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-30", "guest": "Ricky Riccardi", "title": "How Louis Armstrong became the first Black pop star", "question_index": 5, "text": "Well, I want to play a song that made him a star, and that's \"Heebie Jeebies\" from 1926. It's a Hot Five recording. And it's considered the first example of scat - at least the first time it was called scat. So the story that's always told is that Armstrong started singing syllables - scat - instead of words because he dropped the sheet music and didn't remember the words. There's other versions of the story of how he started scatting. Which do you think is the most authentic story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the records he makes in the 1920s, which are at the heart of \"Stomp Off, Let's Go,\" they were known at the time as race records - records aimed at, you know, cities and urban areas and the Black co"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-30", "guest": "Ricky Riccardi", "title": "How Louis Armstrong became the first Black pop star", "question_index": 6, "text": "OK, so let's listen to this 1926 recording of Louis Armstrong's Hot Five - his first scatting on record. And this is \"Heebie Jeebies.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So to my ears, I'd - and also to Johnny St. Cyr, the banjo player - he did corroborate the dropping of the sheet music thing. People have always said that that story was too good to be true. But if yo"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-30", "guest": "Ricky Riccardi", "title": "How Louis Armstrong became the first Black pop star", "question_index": 7, "text": "LOUIS ARMSTRONG", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So to my ears, I'd - and also to Johnny St. Cyr, the banjo player - he did corroborate the dropping of the sheet music thing. People have always said that that story was too good to be true. But if yo"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-30", "guest": "Ricky Riccardi", "title": "How Louis Armstrong became the first Black pop star", "question_index": 8, "text": "So that was Louis Armstrong And His Hot Five recorded in 1926, \"Heebie Jeebies,\" which is considered the first recorded scatting. It's interesting, when he played in New Orleans with King Oliver, and when he played in New York with Fletcher Henderson before starting his own bands, nobody wanted him to sing. And he became so famous and so loved for his singing. Why didn't they want him to sing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Say, I've got the Heebies - I mean, the Jeebies. Talking about the dance, the Heebie Jeebies do, because they're boys. Because it pleases me to be joy. Say, don't you know it. You don't know"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-30", "guest": "Ricky Riccardi", "title": "How Louis Armstrong became the first Black pop star", "question_index": 9, "text": "But you were one or the other?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, to Armstrong, he said that the concept of a trumpet player or any instrumentalist also singing was just - it was a foreign concept at that time. You just - people just didn't do it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-30", "guest": "Ricky Riccardi", "title": "How Louis Armstrong became the first Black pop star", "question_index": 10, "text": "And he was singing before he was playing trumpet.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Either one or the other. Exactly. But there was also something about Armstrong, where I just think his natural personality, his - you know, the showmanship, his mugging, his way of putting over a song"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-30", "guest": "Ricky Riccardi", "title": "How Louis Armstrong became the first Black pop star", "question_index": 11, "text": "I want to play him backing up a singer, because this is a famous early example of his playing. Bessie Smith in 1925 recorded \"St. Louis Blues, \" and this is before Armstrong had his own band. And he's playing trumpet behind her, and it's quite beautiful and very sympathetic to what he's singing. Do you want to say anything else to introduce this track?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Another point that he always wanted to stress, you know, because people would say, oh, you know, the trumpet player, that's the genius. You know, the guy singing, that's kind of - he's just doing that"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-30", "guest": "Ricky Riccardi", "title": "How Louis Armstrong became the first Black pop star", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, let's hear it. This is 1925, Bessie Smith with Louis Armstrong on trumpet, \"St. Louis Blues.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, this track literally just turned 100-years-old. It was recorded in January, 1925. And this was Armstrong, the sideman. He goes to New York to join Fletcher Henderson in October 1924, and Okeh re"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-30", "guest": "Ricky Riccardi", "title": "How Louis Armstrong became the first Black pop star", "question_index": 13, "text": "That was the \"St. Louis Blues\" recorded in 1925 by Bessie Smith with Louis Armstrong on trumpet. And my guest, Ricky Riccardi is the author of a new book about Armstrong's early years. It's his third book about Armstrong. This new one is called \"Stomp Off, Let's Go: The Early Years Of Louis Armstrong.\". I think we need to take a short break here. So let's do that, and then we'll be right back and talk more about Armstrong and hear a lot more of his great music. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I hate to see the evening sun go down. I hate to see the evening sun go down. It makes me think I'm on my last go 'round."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-30", "guest": "Ricky Riccardi", "title": "How Louis Armstrong became the first Black pop star", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Ricky Riccardi, author of the new book, \"Stomp Off, Let's Go: The Early Years Of Louis Armstrong.\" It's his third book about Armstrong. Riccardi has been the director of research collections at the Louis Armstrong House Museum since 2009. It's the world's largest archive focusing on one musician. You know, it's really remarkable and lucky for us that Armstrong was able to reach such iconic status and have such a long and productive career, considering the circumstances he grew up in. Describe for us the neighborhood he grew up in in New Orleans and just remind us, too, of the year he was born.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I hate to see the evening sun go down. I hate to see the evening sun go down. It makes me think I'm on my last go 'round."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-30", "guest": "Ricky Riccardi", "title": "How Louis Armstrong became the first Black pop star", "question_index": 15, "text": "Yeah, we can skip that part.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Armstrong was born in 1901. I won't get into the whole birthday..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-30", "guest": "Ricky Riccardi", "title": "How Louis Armstrong became the first Black pop star", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, in doing your research, you think that his mother was a sex worker and that his sister became a sex worker while his mother was in jail, and she needed to earn some money - and as a kid, that Armstrong helped out, worked for sex workers. And as a young man, he tried being a pimp.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Debate. You know, I believe he was born July 4, 1901, but for reasons that are explained in the book. But either way, he's born 1901, spends his first few years living with his grandmother. But the"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-30", "guest": "Ricky Riccardi", "title": "How Louis Armstrong became the first Black pop star", "question_index": 17, "text": "Let's stop at that for a second, because he spent a couple of years there after being arrested for possession of a gun - he was still a minor - and for shooting it in the air. You think it was his mother's gun.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Their head. But it's true. And, you know, he told that story, too. He was stabbed in the shoulder by the prostitute that he tried serving as the pimp for, and he showed off that scar for the rest o"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-30", "guest": "Ricky Riccardi", "title": "How Louis Armstrong became the first Black pop star", "question_index": 18, "text": "So he was sent to the Colored Waifs Home for Boys for, what, a couple of years, he was there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was, according to his sister. She said definitively it was their mother's gun."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-30", "guest": "Ricky Riccardi", "title": "How Louis Armstrong became the first Black pop star", "question_index": 19, "text": "And that's where he really got his start as an instrumentalist.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was there a year and a half."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-30", "guest": "Ricky Riccardi", "title": "How Louis Armstrong became the first Black pop star", "question_index": 20, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, you know, you hate to say something like, you know, that's the best thing that ever happened to him. But honestly, it was the first time that he had structure in his life. You know, the Waifs "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-30", "guest": "Ricky Riccardi", "title": "How Louis Armstrong became the first Black pop star", "question_index": 21, "text": "We need to take another break here, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Ricky Riccardi. He's the author of the new book \"Stomp Off, Let's Go: The Early Years Of Louis Armstrong.\" It's his third book about Armstrong. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But then on Decoration Day, the Waifs Home band did a parade through Armstrong's neighborhood, and the newspapers covered that. And all of a sudden, it was Louis Armstrong, comma, leader. And so the W"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-30", "guest": "Ricky Riccardi", "title": "How Louis Armstrong became the first Black pop star", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Ricky Riccardi, author of the new book \"Stomp Off, Let's Go: The Early Years Of Louis Armstrong.\" It's his third book about Armstrong. Riccardi has been the director of research collections at the Louis Armstrong House Museum since 2009. It's the world's largest archive focusing on one musician. Another thing about Louis Armstrong's early years is that he started working as a child. He loaded coal and kind of ran the junk yard truck or wagon for the Karnofsky family, a Jewish family in New Orleans. And on the one hand, it was child labor. And, you know, like the loading and unloading of the coal that he delivered, almost, like, broke his back, literally. On the other hand, the Karnofsky family, a Jewish family, treated him pretty well and they encouraged his singing. This was before he had a cornet. They encouraged his singing. They recognized his talent, and he credits them for helping, like, launch his career in a way, because they encouraged him when he was very young. And also, he developed an affection for Jewish food and for Jewish music of the time, which you can hear in some of his playing. Tell us some of the things he said about loading coal and unloading coal.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But then on Decoration Day, the Waifs Home band did a parade through Armstrong's neighborhood, and the newspapers covered that. And all of a sudden, it was Louis Armstrong, comma, leader. And so the W"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-30", "guest": "Ricky Riccardi", "title": "How Louis Armstrong became the first Black pop star", "question_index": 23, "text": "Well, let's hear another recording by Armstrong. I'm going to play \"Cornet Chop Suey. \" And you say about that, that it had the effect on instrumentalists that \"Heebie Jeebies\" had on singers. So what is the importance of this song in terms of American music and in terms of Armstrong's career?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that was his main occupation. I mean, he had other little odd jobs, but the coal cart - you know, he wrote a song called \"Coal Cart Blues,\" and he knew of what he sang, because this was somethin"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-30", "guest": "Ricky Riccardi", "title": "How Louis Armstrong became the first Black pop star", "question_index": 24, "text": "So I - we're going to feature the stop-time part in this recording. So you described the stop-time part as thrilling. But I want you to describe what stop-time is for people who don't know.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the amazing thing for me is \"Cornet Chop Suey\" was the next song recorded after \"Heebie Jeebies.\" So I always like to make the point that, you know, you can name a million great vocalists and a "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-30", "guest": "Ricky Riccardi", "title": "How Louis Armstrong became the first Black pop star", "question_index": 25, "text": "So let's listen to Louis Armstrong's 1926 Hot Five recording of \"Cornet Chop Suey.\" And what we're going to do is we're going to cross fade and skip a part, 'cause I want to hit all the high points that Ricky Riccardi just mentioned.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. So stop-time, the - you know, usually, you got the rhythm section is hitting the beats on every beat in every quarter, you know, bump, bump, bump, bump. Well, stop-time, they all just focus on t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-30", "guest": "Ricky Riccardi", "title": "How Louis Armstrong became the first Black pop star", "question_index": 26, "text": "That was \"Cornet Chop Suey,\" Louis Armstrong's Hot Five recorded in 1926. And my guest is Ricky Riccardi, author of the new book \"Stomp Off, Let's Go: The Early Years Of Louis Armstrong.\" It's his third book about Armstrong. We'll be back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. So stop-time, the - you know, usually, you got the rhythm section is hitting the beats on every beat in every quarter, you know, bump, bump, bump, bump. Well, stop-time, they all just focus on t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-30", "guest": "Ricky Riccardi", "title": "How Louis Armstrong became the first Black pop star", "question_index": 27, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Ricky Riccardi, author of the new book \"Stomp Off, Let's Go: The Early Years Of Louis Armstrong.\" It's his third book about Armstrong. Riccardi has been the director of research collections at the Louis Armstrong House Museum since 2009. It's the world's largest archive focusing on one musician. So I want to jump ahead to Armstrong's last chapter of life, so I'm going to jump ahead to 1971. And your book begins with this story. And it's a very moving start that really pays tribute to Armstrong's love and complete dedication to playing music. In 1971, he signs a two-week contract for two shows a night at a newly renovated nightclub called the Empire Room at the Waldorf Astoria in New York, even though he'd recently been in the ICU with kidney problems and, I think, heart problems as well.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. So stop-time, the - you know, usually, you got the rhythm section is hitting the beats on every beat in every quarter, you know, bump, bump, bump, bump. Well, stop-time, they all just focus on t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-30", "guest": "Ricky Riccardi", "title": "How Louis Armstrong became the first Black pop star", "question_index": 28, "text": "And his doctor warned him he could die onstage. Armstrong didn't seem to care because his life was his music. So what deal did the doctor make with Armstrong?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yeah, both."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-30", "guest": "Ricky Riccardi", "title": "How Louis Armstrong became the first Black pop star", "question_index": 29, "text": "I think this would be a good time to play Armstrong and his Savoy Ballroom Five, recorded in 1928. So this is the final side that he made in Chicago before moving to New York. And you say it sums up his entire life up to that point. How so?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "His doctor, Gary Zucker, basically told him, all right, you can do the gig, but we're going to turn your hotel room basically into a triage at a hospital. And every night, before and after each show, "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-30", "guest": "Ricky Riccardi", "title": "How Louis Armstrong became the first Black pop star", "question_index": 30, "text": "OK, well, let's hear it. It's a great recording. This is Louis Armstrong and his Savoy Ballroom Five. And what we're going to do is focus on that solo that you just described.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so, you know, the influence of the Karnofsky family is immediately right there. Then there's comedy. You know, people always said, you know, well, Armstrong can mug and fool around, but when he pi"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-30", "guest": "Ricky Riccardi", "title": "How Louis Armstrong became the first Black pop star", "question_index": 31, "text": "That was Louis Armstrong, \"Tight Like This,\" recorded in 1928. My guest is Ricky Riccardi, who is the author of the new book \"Stomp Off, Let's Go.\" It's about the early years of Louis Armstrong. We'll be back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Oh, it's tight like that. Now it's close like that."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-30", "guest": "Ricky Riccardi", "title": "How Louis Armstrong became the first Black pop star", "question_index": 32, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Ricky Riccardi, author of the new book \"Stomp Off, Let's Go: The Early Years Of Louis Armstrong.\" It's his third book about Armstrong. Riccardi has been the director of research collections at the Louis Armstrong House Museum since 2009. So you are the director of research collections at the Louis Armstrong House Museum. You've been that since 2009. And what it is, it's the house where Armstrong and his fourth wife, Lucille, lived for about 20 years until his death, and it was transformed into a museum. And it's the world's largest archive focusing on one musician. One of the amazing things in that collection is 700 hours of tape that Armstrong recorded. Some of it is music, but a lot of it is his thoughts. You know, him kind of thinking out loud, sharing memories of the past, as well as it has conversations with friends and fellow musicians. And it must be very exciting to have access to that. What are some of the gems that you found in that 700 hours of tape?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Oh, it's tight like that. Now it's close like that."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-30", "guest": "Ricky Riccardi", "title": "How Louis Armstrong became the first Black pop star", "question_index": 33, "text": "And some people thought of him as an Uncle Tom.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, they're - to me, they're all gems, but the big takeaway is that what you see is what you got. You know, the Armstrong who had the time of his life and always said he was there in the cause of "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-30", "guest": "Ricky Riccardi", "title": "How Louis Armstrong became the first Black pop star", "question_index": 34, "text": "So I'm going to ask you to choose a song to end with.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my goodness. You know, that started early and kind of haunted him for years, and it actually clung to him to the first maybe 10, 20 years after he died. That was a big part of many of the writings"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-30", "guest": "Ricky Riccardi", "title": "How Louis Armstrong became the first Black pop star", "question_index": 35, "text": "And I'm going to say, let's not do the Hot Five and Hot Seven, 'cause we've played several of those recordings. Let's move on to another chapter of his life. And I was telling you before we started that I love his recordings from the '30s and '40s, so - and you seem to love them, too. I'm sure you love every...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-30", "guest": "Ricky Riccardi", "title": "How Louis Armstrong became the first Black pop star", "question_index": 36, "text": "...Every bit of his work. But why don't we choose something from the '30s and '40s? Because it's kind of, like, represents the next chapter of his musical life. And we haven't played him actually singing. We've played him scatting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-30", "guest": "Ricky Riccardi", "title": "How Louis Armstrong became the first Black pop star", "question_index": 37, "text": "Oh, good. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You read my mind."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-30", "guest": "Ricky Riccardi", "title": "How Louis Armstrong became the first Black pop star", "question_index": 38, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, no, so the next chapter of Armstrong's life was covered in the previous chapter of my previous book, which was called \"Heart Full Of Rhythm: The Big Band Years Of Louis Armstrong.\" Again, my int"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-30", "guest": "Ricky Riccardi", "title": "How Louis Armstrong became the first Black pop star", "question_index": 39, "text": "Ricky Riccardi, it's just been such a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We negotiated down to 12 because I couldn't cut anything. But if you ask me to name one, it's going to be \"Stardust,\" recorded by Armstrong & His Orchestra, November 4, 1931, and \"Stardust\" might "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-30", "guest": "Ricky Riccardi", "title": "How Louis Armstrong became the first Black pop star", "question_index": 40, "text": "OK, so let's hear Louis Armstrong's recording of \"Stardust\" - and what year did you say this was?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my pleasure, Terry. This has been an honor, and, you know, I always have to leave my closing phrase - Pops is Tops, you know?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-30", "guest": "Ricky Riccardi", "title": "How Louis Armstrong became the first Black pop star", "question_index": 41, "text": "OK. And Ricky Riccardi is the author of the new book, \"Stomp Off, Let's Go: The Early Years Of Louis Armstrong.\" Thank you again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "1931."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-01-30", "guest": "Ricky Riccardi", "title": "How Louis Armstrong became the first Black pop star", "question_index": 42, "text": "If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AlR interviews you missed, like our conversation with Questlove about his new documentary covering 50 years of music on \"Saturday Night Live,\" or our interview with journalist Derek Thompson on our nation's loneliness epidemic, check out our podcast and you'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Briger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Susan Nyakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. Our cohost is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my pleasure."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The show you're about to hear isn't the one we'd planned for today. So let me take a moment to explain. We intended to broadcast the interview I recorded yesterday about the recruiting crisis in the military and how Trump blamed it on the military's DEI programs, which is the subject of Dexter Filkins' latest article in the New Yorker. In that interview with Filkins, we also talked about how the Middle East was being reshaped by the Israel-Hamas war and the overthrow of Syria's dictator, Bashar al-Assad. But last night, at a joint press conference with Israeli Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu, Trump proposed a shocking way he'd like to reshape the region. His idea is for all the Palestinians to leave Gaza, get Jordan and Egypt to take them in, while the U.S. takes ownership of Gaza and rebuilds it. He didn't rule out sending U.S. troops into Gaza. We brought back Filkins this morning to talk about Trump's proposal. In the second half of today's show, we'll hear the interview we recorded yesterday morning about the shortage of recruits in the U.S. military and how that's leaving us vulnerable. Filkins is a staff writer for The New Yorker. He's been reporting on Iraq, Afghanistan and the Middle East for decades and is the author of the bestseller \"The Forever War.\" Let's start with a clip from last night's press conference when CNN's Kaitlan Collins posed this question to Trump.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 1, "text": "Dexter Filkins, welcome to FRESH AIR. What was your reaction last night when you heard the press conference?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And they'll live there. Palestinians also. Palestinians will live there. Many people will live there. But they've tried the other, and they've tried it for decades and decades and decades. It's not go"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 2, "text": "How do you know that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, it's, like, Trump throwing a hand grenade once again. But nah, look, he's right about certain things, right? We've tried it again and again and again. It hasn't worked. And so, you kno"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 3, "text": "Just because the world is against him. Trump can be very stubborn, and, you know, look at what he's doing to the American government. So how can you be sure that he wouldn't try it? Maybe it wouldn't work, but how can you be sure he wouldn't try to push it forward?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 4, "text": "Do you think Trump and Jared see this as a kind of ultra form of gentrification?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, it's like, try. Try what? So we're basically talking about ethnically cleansing Gaza of its people. OK, that's one thing. You know, they tried that in Bosnia. But the other thing is, lik"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 5, "text": "So with the Abraham Accords, that would have created peace between - peace and recognition. So the Saudis would officially recognize Israel. You know, there'd be an official, you know, like, peace between them. But...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, everybody loves the Mediterranean. But look, I mean, give Jared and give Trump credit the last time around. Jared came in, I think, not knowing very much about the Middle East. But he pulled"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it did. I mean..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 7, "text": "Smaller ones.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not with the Saudis, but a number of other Middle Eastern countries, you know, stepped forward."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 8, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 9, "text": "When al-Qaida attacked the U.S. on 9/11, the leadership said this was because of American military presence in the Middle East. So even if Trump does not follow through on his plan, do you think that this will arouse terrorist groups, or what's left of them, to try to get back at the U.S? And on a related note, if Trump did take steps forward in trying to implement this, what would it mean in terms of possible terrorist attacks on U.S. troops or on, you know, just American land?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And the Saudis are kind of on deck, and that sort of - you know, there's a kind of idea of a big grand Middle Eastern peace deal, and that would involve something like a Palestinian state, the A"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 10, "text": "So in terms of a Palestinian state, like, Mike Huckabee, who is the new ambassador to Israel, doesn't even call the West Bank the West Bank. He refers to it as Judea and Samaria, which are the biblical names for that land. And he's one of the people who believes that Israel has biblical claim to the land that we call the West Bank. So with him being the ambassador to Israel, what do you think that means for the future of Israel and the Palestinians?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "on the Riviera of the Middle East, yeah, that's going to arouse resentment. Of course it would arouse hatred. There's a lot of hatred already. There's tons of hatred. You know, he did that press confe"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 11, "text": "There seems to be some controversy over whether Trump was musing or whether this was, like, planned in advance.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's really, really difficult. And, look, this is what we're talking about right now. It's the world's most intractable problem, and Trump's right. You know, we tried and tried and tried, and we"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 12, "text": "And on a related note...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "kind of, you know, writes about it and writes about it and talks about it and talks about it, and then it goes away. And, like, we've seen this before."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 13, "text": "...The CIA. This is part of Elon Musk's plan to save money and change government. Buyouts have been offered to, I think, everybody in the CIA. And we need the CIA more than ever now, don't we?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "kind of, you know, writes about it and writes about it and talks about it and talks about it, and then it goes away. And, like, we've seen this before."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 14, "text": "But that's not the plan right now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, let's see what happens over there. I, you know - but CIA is a giant place. They have an enormous budget. Let's see what happens. And, like, are there areas of the CIA that could probably, you kn"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 15, "text": "The plan is, like, you can all leave if you want.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 16, "text": "My guest is Dexter Filkins, a staff writer for The New Yorker. His latest article is titled \"The U.S. Military's Recruitment Crisis.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, let's see. Yeah. It's a radical proposal. Let's see how many people take it. But I think - yeah, I mean, when you get a press conference like we did yesterday, it is a great "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded this morning with Dexter Filkins, a staff writer at The New Yorker, about the idea Trump proposed last night at a press conference with Israeli Prime Minister Bibi Netanyahu. The idea is to get all the Palestinians to leave Gaza, get Jordan and Egypt to take them in, while the U.S. takes ownership of Gaza and rebuilds it into a Middle East riviera. So yesterday, in a part of our interview which we'll - we'll hear that interview a little later. We spent some time talking about how the Middle East has been reshaped because of the Israel-Hamas War and because of the Syrian dictator Bashar al-Assad having been overthrown. And everything that we said yesterday is a little out of date now, as of last night.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, let's see. Yeah. It's a radical proposal. Let's see how many people take it. But I think - yeah, I mean, when you get a press conference like we did yesterday, it is a great "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 18, "text": "So can we take that one again? How do you think the Middle East is being remade right now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, let's see. Yeah. It's a radical proposal. Let's see how many people take it. But I think - yeah, I mean, when you get a press conference like we did yesterday, it is a great "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 19, "text": "What's left of the terrorist groups, the offshoots of al-Qaida, ISIS? What's left of those, and are they still a threat to Israel or to the U.S?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think we're kind of still in the same place, which is the Iranian project - this grand Iranian project, the Shiite Crescent, which consisted of, even though Hamas is Sunni Muslim - but it consisted "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 20, "text": "Quick question to this. So Trump wants to impose maximum pressure on Iran through sanctions.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So there's a lot of space there for bad guys to run around. I think the concern - ISIS has been kind of bottled up in the desert for a long time, you know, ever since Obama and then Trump, you know, I"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 21, "text": "What does he want to do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, this is important. Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 22, "text": "Dexter Filkins, thank you so much. And so next up, we're going to hear the interview we recorded yesterday based on your New Yorker article - your new New Yorker article about the shortage of recruits in the military that is leaving us kind of vulnerable. And be interesting to listen to that now in the light of Trump suggesting that we send troops to Gaza after we own it", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he wants to reimpose the really strict sanctions on Iran that were in place during his first term. And what - the really important piece of that is, you know, it's all aimed at Iran's oil. And s"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 23, "text": "and rebuild it and expel the Palestinians. So thank you very much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he wants to reimpose the really strict sanctions on Iran that were in place during his first term. And what - the really important piece of that is, you know, it's all aimed at Iran's oil. And s"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 24, "text": "Dexter Filkins is a staff writer for The New Yorker. After we take a short break, we'll hear the interview I recorded yesterday with him about the recruitment crisis in the U.S. military, which Trump has blamed on the military's DEI programs. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks so much, Terry."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 25, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I am Terry Gross. Now we're going to hear the interview I recorded with Dexter Filkins yesterday morning. It's about a disturbing question that the U.S. military leaders are asking - can our country defend itself if not enough people are willing or able to fight? They're confronting that question because the military has been unable to meet its recruitment quotas. President Donald Trump blames this on the military's DEI programs. The new defense secretary, Pete Hegseth, has declared an end to the era of DEI in the Defense Department. Filkins has been investigating the real reasons why the Armed Forces are becoming depleted, and how the military has responded by loosening some admissions standards. Filkins' new article, titled \"The U.S. Military's Recruitment Crisis,\" is published in The New Yorker, where he's a staff writer. He's reported on the Middle East for years, covered the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and was embedded with the Marines during one of the Iraq War's most brutal battles - the Battle of Fallujah. He's the author of the bestseller \"The Forever War,\" which won a National Book Critics Circle Award for nonfiction. So Trump and Hegseth have made eliminating DEI in the military a priority for the Defense Department. What exactly do they want to eliminate? What has the military been doing to increase diversity in the military?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks so much, Terry."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 26, "text": "You sometimes don't know how to read what people mean when they talk about DEI and what Trump means when he, you know, bans DEI. So one possible way of interpreting banning DEI in the military is, you know, there's too many people of color, too many women in the military. They're not really competent, so let's cut down on those people.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they've been doing a fair amount. I - so when Biden came in in 2021, he appoints Lloyd Austin as secretary of defense - former general - and essentially signs an order saying, set up DEI - you k"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 27, "text": "Give us a sense of how bad the recruiting crisis is in the military now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That wasn't my sense of the motivation. I talked to a lot of people - a lot of veterans, particularly - who are really opposed to DEI in the military. And what they typically would say is, everybody's"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 28, "text": "But they don't have enough ships, either, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "you got to go out to sea for months at a time. But, for instance, some huge number of ships and submarines in the Navy - in the U.S. Navy - can't go out to sea for lack of maintenance. It's a - you kn"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 29, "text": "And the really big question is, are we more vulnerable as a result of this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "or do we scale back the commitments? And, you know, that's the really big question, the hardest one to answer."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 30, "text": "Well, I think I have to reintroduce you here. My guest is Dexter Filkins. His new article in The New Yorker is called \"The U.S. Military's Recruitment Crisis.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the moment we're in right now, 2025, if you kind of look at the history of the 20th century, to me, looks you know, more and more like 1938 every day. There's, you know, all these authoritaria"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 31, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with New Yorker staff writer Dexter Filkins.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the moment we're in right now, 2025, if you kind of look at the history of the 20th century, to me, looks you know, more and more like 1938 every day. There's, you know, all these authoritaria"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 32, "text": "His new article is titled \"The U.S. Military's Recruitment Crisis.\" Trump and his new defense secretary, Pete Hegseth, have blamed DEI on the shortage of recruits. Filkins investigates what the real causes are of the shortfall and what the consequences might be. So you found that the military actually is lowering its standards, and that's not because of DEI. That's because so many would-be recruits are very overweight, or they can't pass the aptitude test. You visited the Future Soldiers training course at Fort Jackson in South Carolina. And your piece starts with a - you know, a bunch of overweight people who can't do five push-ups but really want to enlist. So can you just talk a little bit about the problem that the military is having when a fair amount of would-be recruits just can't pass the test - don't fit the requirements?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the moment we're in right now, 2025, if you kind of look at the history of the 20th century, to me, looks you know, more and more like 1938 every day. There's, you know, all these authoritaria"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 33, "text": "You described one woman who was told, first, you have to lose a hundred pounds. Then come back and see if you qualify for this training program. Can you talk about her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And so you have three months to basically lose the weight to get under the Army standard. And the same goes with the aptitude test. So, like, you go to these classes, and they're basically - you kno"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 34, "text": "What kind of track record does this program have in terms of weight loss? Do they track the people afterwards to see if they put the weight back on or if they stay at the qualifying standard?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. She was remarkable. Her name was Savannah Thorne. I think she's 20 years old. And she's from a little town in Georgia, and I met her in the weight loss camp. And she was great. She was smart. Sh"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 35, "text": "So you said the Navy has lowered its standards. What other ways has it lowered the standard?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So far, I think the program's - fair to say the program's working. It's definitely working in terms of numbers. Twenty-five percent of the Army's recruits go through either the weight loss clinic or t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 36, "text": "The military has loosened other standards, including if you have a history of asthma, you can qualify as long as you've abstained from medications for at least a year. And then there's the tattoo", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the big way is - so you take this test. It's called, like, the armed forces, you know, aptitude test or something like that - qualifications test. And it's basically, like, you know, a kind of m"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 37, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the big way is - so you take this test. It's called, like, the armed forces, you know, aptitude test or something like that - qualifications test. And it's basically, like, you know, a kind of m"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 38, "text": "...That tattoo issue.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 39, "text": "Yeah. Explain that tattoo issue and how that's changed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's important, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 40, "text": "Because...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they used to be really strict about it. You know, you couldn't have any kind of visible tattoo on your body. But also, as it was explained to me, there's a whole range of prohibited tattoos. So "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 41, "text": "What are the tattoos, and what do they signify?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Or if you got them when you're in, they'd throw you out because they're associated with white supremacist groups. And so for instance, when I think Hegseth was going to - he was going to be present - "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 42, "text": "So has Pete Hegseth said anything about those tattoos?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One is the Jerusalem cross, and the other is this kind of saying, deus vult, which the latter, I think, was popular in - the saying was popular in the Crusades. But they're associated - they're - they"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 43, "text": "You know, and talking about the difficulty of recruiting, Trump and Hegseth seem to want to bar women from serving in combat. Correct me if I'm wrong about that. But isn't that counterproductive if you want to increase the ranks of people in combat? And, like, flying planes, that counts as combat, doesn't it - like, if you're flying a warplane?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think he said they're just Christian symbols. You know, they're harmless."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 44, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Dexter Filkins. His new article in The New Yorker is titled \"The U.S. Military's Recruitment Crisis.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah. Well, I - let's see how far Hegseth gets down that road. I think he'll probably fail. But, yeah, like, I talked in the story - she's quoted in the story. I talked to this female F/A-18 pil"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 45, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with New Yorker staff writer Dexter Filkins. His new article is titled \"The U.S. Military's Recruitment Crisis.\" Trump and his new defense secretary, Pete Hegseth, have blamed DEI on the shortage of recruits. Filkins investigates what the real causes are of the shortfall and what the consequences might be. One of the things the military is doing now to get more recruits is offering pretty impressive incentives. What are some of the incentives being offered now, both financial and other kind of incentives?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah. Well, I - let's see how far Hegseth gets down that road. I think he'll probably fail. But, yeah, like, I talked in the story - she's quoted in the story. I talked to this female F/A-18 pil"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 46, "text": "Personnel pay and benefits are now about 40% of the defense budget. Do you think that that will be cut?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "a lot on offer. It's - you know, they'll - in most cases, or in many cases, they'll pay your student loans off if you join. They will send you to college if you want to go. They'll send you to med sch"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 47, "text": "Well, Dexter Filkins, thank you so much for talking with us and for coming back to the show. I really appreciate it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And so - and I fly an F-18 and I can fly, you know, 1,500 miles an hour and - can't get that anywhere else. You know, or the submarine commander I talked to. He said, look, I'm working with some of "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 48, "text": "Dexter Filkins' new article, titled \"The U.S. Military's Recruitment Crisis,\" is published in The New Yorker, where he's a staff writer. The magazine is celebrating its hundredth anniversary this year.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, thank you so much."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-05", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "How a military recruitment crisis is leaving the U.S. vulnerable", "question_index": 49, "text": "Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be writer and dominatrix Brittany Newell. Her new novel, \"Soft Core,\" explores the underworld of San Francisco's dive bars, strip clubs and BDSM dungeons, where tech bros, executives and outcasts live out their fantasies. I hope you'll join us. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, thank you so much."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 0, "text": "Which was a book about the Stones?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that's one of the saddest things in the book - that bit, where I'm in Hazelden, and they asked me to tell my story. And I actually rang Ellen Smith, my publicist, and said to her, please send "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 1, "text": "What led to that feeling that you didn't know what your personal story was?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. That's what - yeah, that's sort of very telling, you know."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 2, "text": "So tell us the story of how you met Mick Jagger.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I didn't know when I said that - that I didn't have a story. I mean, I still thought that my story was the same story as the Rolling Stones. I didn't learn - I didn't figure this out for another"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 3, "text": "What do you mean you were discovered there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I went along to a party with my first boyfriend, John Dunbar, who was a friend of Peter and Gordon. And Paul McCartney was going out with Jane Asher. It's so hard to remember all these things. A"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 4, "text": "And he was the producer of your first records...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was - well, that's where Andrew Oldham saw me. I was discovered by several people at that party, actually. Andrew Oldham is the only person I gave my address to."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 5, "text": "...And of the Rolling Stones.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 6, "text": "Now, what did he discover in you? Was it your look?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He managed the Rolling Stones, made their early records."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 7, "text": "Or did he know that you sang?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 8, "text": "In your memoir, you reprint a press release that was written for when \"As Tears Go By\" was released.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no, he didn't know I sang. That was just a sort of bit of luck, I think."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 9, "text": "And it says, (reading) Marianne Faithfull is the little 17-year-old blonde who still attends a convent in Reading, daughter of the Baroness Erisso. She is lissome and lovely with long blonde hair, a shy...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Lots of alliteration in this press release..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 11, "text": "(Reading) A shy smile and a liking for people who are long-haired and socially conscious.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Isn't there? Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 12, "text": "(Reading) Marianne digs Marlon Brando, Woodbine cigarettes, poetry, going to the ballet and wearing long evening dresses. She is shy, wistful, waiflike. Now, what did you think of that image of yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thought it was a hoot. I remember taking it back to my mum and sitting in Milman Road reading it to my mother and Chris, my brother. We just fell about laughing, you know? I never in my wildest drea"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 14, "text": "Now, you ended up doing a lot of drugs, doing a lot of heroin. How did you start doing heroin?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I was at a convent, and my mother was a baroness. But apart from that - but then, again, you know, I can't be too sort of sticky about this because it's quite obvious that we - none of us really s"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 15, "text": "For coping with what?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I used it as a coping mechanism, I think."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 16, "text": "How long did it take you to figure that out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For coping with my life. And it worked for a while. But it did have a tremendous drawback, which was that it was addictive, and it would kill you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ages."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 18, "text": "Now, I want to play a song that you wrote the lyrics for called \"Sister Morphine\" that was released in England in 1969. Tell me a little bit about where you were in your life when you wrote the song and what the lyrics are about.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very long time. But I did figure it out eventually, thank God."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 19, "text": "Playing the melody?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. It's a very weird thing about \"Sister Morphine\" because, you know, I - it was knocking about the house for six months. Mick was playing it all the time."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 20, "text": "Why don't we hear \"Sister Morphine\"? This is Marianne Faithfull recorded in 1969.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Playing the - yes, the basic thing (vocalizing) - that thing all the time. So it went into my sort of whole sort of nervous system, blood, bones, well, everything. I really had it in my - I knew it by"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 21, "text": "Marianne Faithfull is my guest, and she's written an autobiography called \"Faithfull.\" The record company, Decca, you say, yanked this record about two days after it was released. What was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) The scream of the ambulance is sounding in my ear. Tell me, Sister Morphine, how long have I been lying here? What am I doing in this place? Why does the doctor have no face? Oh, I can't cra"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 22, "text": "What was their objection?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They took it off the shelves."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 23, "text": "You said that after you became a junkie that it actually brought you a anonymity that you hadn't known since you were 16 - since 17, that is. You were living on the street. Did that - I'm sure that wasn't exactly, though, the kind of anonymity that you wanted.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there were many. The lyrics were very ahead of their time. It's one thing for Lou Reed to sing \"Heroin,\" obviously. It was completely - this is something I really didn't understand, that this th"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 24, "text": "Where were you living? How did you live during those years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I hadn't wanted celebrity in the first place. I just went to a party and got discovered, and I hadn't had time to think about whether I wanted it or not. So the anonymity I got in the street was"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 25, "text": "Your voice is very dark. Your voice is very different from the way it was at the start of your career.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) When you're not by my side, the world's in two, and I'm a fool. When you're not in my sight, then everything just fades from view. The mystery of love belongs to you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 26, "text": "Yes. Well, some people's voices change more than others.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 27, "text": "Why did your...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Mine was always - you know, I studied singing at school when I was young. And my singing teacher used to say to me in hushed tones, you know, you have a soprano now. But I think if you're very, "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 28, "text": "...Teacher think that that would be good luck if it did?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it did."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 29, "text": "I don't know what you'll make of this, but I think of you as being similar to Billie Holiday and Lotte Lenya, as having as - great singers whose voices were very different at the beginning and the end...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's a very rare thing to have. It's Kathleen Ferrier. You know, there are very few real contraltos, and I'm one of them."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 30, "text": "...Of their careers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Indeed, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 31, "text": "Was there anything that you missed about that pure soprano that you had, you know, the high notes or that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course. But that's partly technical like I told you. But it's also experience. In my case, I mean, thank you very much for comparing me in any way with my great heroines, Billie Holiday and Lotte L"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 32, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 33, "text": "You know, it's interesting. Like, \"As Tears Go By,\" which is your famous first hit, you're singing in an almost uninflected voice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, if I hadn't been discovered by Andrew Oldham and gone into the pop business, I would have probably either become an actress or I might have gone to the Royal Academy of Music in London, "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 34, "text": "That's what he wanted. Why? This is Andrew Loog Oldham was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's what Andrew wanted."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 35, "text": "...Who was your producer, and he was the Rolling Stones' producer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 36, "text": "Oh, I'm sorry. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was my manager."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 37, "text": "So why did he want it uninflected?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And I suppose he was the producer, too. Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 38, "text": "Huh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. I think he wanted me to sound like Mick."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 39, "text": "It's so interesting 'cause there's so much drama in your singing now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 40, "text": "Well, you know, you mentioned that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah, but that's my natural thing. Maybe I didn't have that yet."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 41, "text": "Right. Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was only 17."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 42, "text": "Any drama", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think I had any."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 43, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think I had any."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 44, "text": "You mentioned that Lotte Lenya is one of your music heroes. So I thought maybe we could listen to a recording in which you sing Kurt Weill. And you made a recording. You've done a lot of Kurt Weill over the years.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. And I was terribly, terribly nervous. So probably the natural thing I did was just sort of do what I do when I'm very frightened is pretend I'm very small and stay very still and do as little as p"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 45, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've done two records..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 46, "text": "And Paul Trueblood is at the piano, and he sounds great with you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Of the Brecht-Weill canon. The first one was the cabaret record, which was \"20th Century Blues,\" which I love. But my actual total favorite of all time is \"The Seven Deadly Sins.\" But play somethin"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 47, "text": "Well, let's go for the drama and hear \"Pirate Jenny.\" And this is from Marianne Faithfull's album \"20th Century Blues\" with Paul Trueblood at the piano.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Paul Trueblood is such a great musician, and I was so lucky to work with him. And I'm very fond of him."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 48, "text": "Marianne Faithfull, how were you introduced to the music of Kurt Weill?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You lads see me wash the glasses, wipe the floors, make the beds. I'm the best of servants. You can kindly throw me pennies, and I'll thank you very much. When you see me ragged and tattered"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 49, "text": "So is that, like, the first music you heard?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I sort of grew up with it, you know? Both my parents - I don't know how they did it. I don't know how my mother did this, but she brought 78s with her from Vienna. And a lot of the songs on \"20t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 50, "text": "Was your mother a singer? I had read that she...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I suppose it is, yes. Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 51, "text": "No?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no, no, no, no."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 52, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mother was a dancer."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 53, "text": "When you were growing up, did she have, like, clothes from - her costumes from when she danced in the closet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was very young, of course. And she was only 24 when Mr. Hitler marched into Vienna in the Anschluss. But she was a dancer in Berlin. And she, as she would be coming into the theater to rehearse in"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 54, "text": "But that sense of theater was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not much, no. I just have a very beautiful piece of chiffon and some beads. I have very little. She didn't bring any of that much with her. No, I don't know what happened to it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 55, "text": "Well, I think they separated when you were six or something, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's as if she wanted to leave it all behind and have a new life. She'd had quite a hard time, I think, during the war. My grandmother was Jewish, you know? And she met my - my father was a spy. I mea"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 56, "text": "And then you lived with your mother.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 57, "text": "And now, I want to mention another song that seems a little out of character for you on your previous CD, which was...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University. Today, we're remembering Marianne Faithfull, the singer, songwriter and actress who died last week at age 7"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 58, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my previous CD, which I do love - you mean \"Kissing Time\"?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 59, "text": "Well, a song here that strikes me as a really interesting choice, a very -kind of out of character, is \"I'm Into Something Good,\" which was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Was, in fact, a very experimental work. I wanted to learn about the new technology. That's why I did it. And so I went to the best people, like Billy Corgan, like Beck, like Jarvis Cocker, like Dam"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 60, "text": "Yeah. Well, it - I mean, that was a Herman's Hermits hit in 1964.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, that was just fun."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 61, "text": "Yeah. Just...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I loved doing that."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 62, "text": "Well, you know, the year that that was a hit, \"I'm Into Something Good,\" 1964, was, I think, the year...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, you got to remember, when we did \"Kissing Time,\" the world was a different place. And we could have fun, and we did, and we loved it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 63, "text": "Yeah, the year - and I think it was about that time that you started on tour. And you went on a tour, not with Herman's Hermits, but...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was the year of \"As Tears Go By\" was."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 64, "text": "...With Freddie and the Dreamers and The Hollies.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not with Herman's Hermits."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 65, "text": "Gerry & the Pacemakers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And The Hollies. They were good."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 66, "text": "Where did you see yourself fitting in as...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 67, "text": "Was it - were you, like, the only girl in the tour?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't fit in. I was completely out of place. And I actually believed that I would go back to school when the tour was over and pick up my life again."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 68, "text": "Oh, 'cause you were still in school.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was. And what I was doing was reading my A-level books, but..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 69, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's what I thought I was, yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 70, "text": "Did the guys on the tour try to be protective or try to take advantage of you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I do remember very well how kind The Hollies were to me, really sweet."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 71, "text": "Well, I'm going to play \"I'm Into Something Good\" from your previous album, \"Kissing Time.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, of course they didn't. I mean, I kind of was like \u2013 you know, I did learn the meaning of the word tour romance, and I thought that was rather fun. Why not?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 72, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Good."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 73, "text": "Me, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's charming."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 74, "text": "That's why the new CD is called that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, you know, now in this world, I could never do something like that again. That's why it's called \"Before The Poison.\""}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 75, "text": "OK. So this is Marianne Faithfull from her previous CD \"Kissing Time.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. But let's remember the days when we could do something like this."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 76, "text": "That's Marianne Faithfull from her previous CD, \"Kissing Time,\" the 1964 hit \"I'm Into Something Good.\" And she has a new CD called \"Before The Poison.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Woke up this morning feelin' fine. There's something special on my mind. Last night I met a new guy in the neighborhood. Oh, yeah. Something tells me I'm into something good. He's the kind o"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 77, "text": "At what point did you start getting to know the - and I assume that you did at some point - the Andy Warhol Factory crew?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Much darker."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 78, "text": "You never knew them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 79, "text": "It just seems to me you'd have connected at some point.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I never did."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 80, "text": "From the joint?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Never. Never, never, never, never. I went to New York once with Andrew, and what I did do was meet up with Al Grossman and Bobby Neuwirth. And it was the time when Bob Dylan had had his motorbike acci"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 81, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 82, "text": "So, you know, I'm wondering what you thought - 'cause you must have been aware of this, whether you knew The Velvet Underground personally or not...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I wasn't able - didn't know anything. I just couldn't deal with it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 83, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I thought they were wonderful..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 84, "text": "Right, 'cause you'd get so deep into it with...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...But I had a sense of self-preservation, which told me, do not go to New York. You will die."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 85, "text": "What did you make of it when The Velvet Underground recorded \"Venus in Furs,\" which...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would be - it would have been another Edie Sedgwick. You know, it was quite bad enough in London, if I may say so, but, I mean, it would have been too much for me. At least I knew London."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 86, "text": "I ask this in case our listeners are confused. Your...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't really think about it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 87, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no. My great-great uncle..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 88, "text": "Did you feel - I mean, you've lived in a very unconventional world your whole adult life.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Marianne Faithfull speaking to Terry Gross in 2005. More after a break, this is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2005 conversation with singer-songwriter and actress Marianne Fa"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 89, "text": "That's what I was wondering.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I - and my whole life as a child was..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 90, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...By these things. So..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 91, "text": "What - tell us a little bit about the delightful Bohemian manner that you were brought up in.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My parents were extremely unconventional, and I was brought up in a delightful Bohemian manner. So I sailed right into swinging London with no problem."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 92, "text": "Did you live on the commune at all?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my father was a real idealist. After the war, he formed a commune, not like a '60s commune, a '50s or even a '40s commune, more like an Iris Murdoch kind of thing, which - and the purpose of thi"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 93, "text": "What was it like as a girl?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I used to go at weekends. I had a wonderful time."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 94, "text": "And did your father talk to you about the philosophy behind it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I was just out from dawn till dusk."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 95, "text": "You're kidding.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not till I got much older. And then I would - then I found it very interesting. You know, he used to give courses on Alexander Pope and things like that. Before I wrote my book, he did a course sp"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 96, "text": "How did it affect the writing of your 1994 autobiography?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 97, "text": "Well, that's always interesting to me 'cause I read so many autobiographies, and I always think, who has the memory to really remember what somebody said and what you said back?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he really - he was a really great teacher, you know. He was a professor at Bedford College in London. He taught me a lot. He - for instance, he - I learnt in his course about autobiography that "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 98, "text": "How far away does the really hard time seem to you when you were homeless? And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you can't, really, but you can make a rough guess. I wrote it from my perspective. I don't put thoughts and feelings into other people. I wrote about me and what I felt and what I did. And I rem"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 99, "text": "And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It seems like a long, long time ago, really."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 100, "text": "Have you asked yourself why you think you survived...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know I was very lucky to get through it. It was obviously something I needed to learn. And in a strange way, I learnt some very positive things, you know?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 101, "text": "...Why so many other people don't?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 102, "text": "What...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess every - no junkie dies in vain. Everybody who dies - for each one who dies, another survives. That's - I don't really know why I..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 103, "text": "You occupy a kind of unique spot in pop music now because, you know, you were a teenage pop star, but what you're doing now is somewhere between...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", and there must be some reason why I had to survive, and I might as well accept it. And when I did that, everything got a lot easier, of course."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 104, "text": "What you're doing now is a kind of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A pop princess, no less (ph)."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 105, "text": "What you're doing now is a kind of hybrid of cabaret and theater music and pop and rock and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Excuse me."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 106, "text": "And if you don't mind my mentioning your age, is that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...With a lot of drama. I don't know what I do. I do what I do, you know?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 107, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't mind."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 108, "text": "Right. And, you know, back when you were starting in the '60s, there still was the sense of, what do rock 'n' rollers do when they get older?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've just turned 58."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 109, "text": "You didn't think you'd live that long?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I didn't think I would."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 110, "text": "And \"Broken English\" was - what? - 1979.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No way. I thought - I mean, I thought \"Broken English\" was the end. I thought after that, I would die. You can't - you could've knocked me down with a feather when I had to make another record."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 111, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 112, "text": "Before the interview started, you mentioned to me that you stopped smoking about three weeks ago.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thought that was it. I thought, go out in a blaze of glory. Off you go."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 113, "text": "And why did you decide to stop after all these years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Three weeks now, yep."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 114, "text": "Huh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 115, "text": "What is the action that you typically take that seems most incomplete without a cigarette?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...The patches. But, you know, time went by. The bronchitis got better. I've had some terrible moments where - of craving. But my doctor in Paris - it did - it's very like giving up drugs, you know? T"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 116, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the one I'm really worried about is face-to-face promo because in that, I wasn't using nicotine just as a drug. I was using it as a prop and as a smoke screen."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 117, "text": "Dark glasses?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can't think - I've got to think of something."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 118, "text": "So do you feel...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I think people should see my eyes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 119, "text": "Do you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But that's not a bad idea. Dark glasses is a possibility. But, you know, I think that's been kind of covered by Yoko."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 120, "text": "Do you feel like your speaking or singing voice is changing at all, or that you're breathing better when you sing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "God bless her."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-07", "guest": "Marianne Faithfull", "title": "Remembering British singer Marianne Faithfull", "question_index": 121, "text": "Marianne Faithfull, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I've not yet, no, but I think that will come."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Sebastian Stan, is nominated for an Oscar for his starring role as Donald Trump in the film \"The Apprentice.\" It begins in 1973, when Trump is 27, still working for his father's real estate development company and trying to make a name for himself. The company is being sued for discriminating against Black people in its rental units. Trump convinces his father to hire Roy Cohn as their attorney. Cohn was infamous for being the chief counsel to Senator Joe McCarthy's senate investigation into suspected communists. Cohn becomes Trump's mentor, teaching him how to admit nothing and deny everything, go on the attack and intimidate through the threat of lawsuits or through actually filing lawsuits. Cohn is played by Jeremy Strong, who's also nominated for an Oscar. Last month, Stan won a Golden Globe for his starring role in \"A Different Man,\" as a man who's disfigured by a genetic condition that has grown fleshy tumors on his face. The tumors disappear after taking a new drug, and he emerges quite attractive but remains alienated and withdrawn from other people. In the film, \"I, Tonya,\" Sebastian Stan played Tonya Harding's boyfriend, who plots to disable her ice skating competitor, Nancy Kerrigan. In the miniseries \"Pam & Tommy,\" he played Tommy Lee, Motley Crue's drummer and Pamela Anderson's husband. A lot of Stan's fans know him from the Marvel Cinematic Universe as Bucky Barnes, a recurring character in the \"Captain America\" films. Let's start with a scene from \"The Apprentice.\" Trump is planning to build Trump Tower and is trying to convince New York City Mayor Ed Koch that it will be so extraordinary, Koch should give him tax breaks. It will be so good for New York. Roy Cohn is also in the room. You'll hear him jumping into the conversation.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Sebastian Stan, welcome to FRESH AIR. It's a pleasure to have you on the show. I think you're great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Donald Trump) You're about to be sued, Mr. Mayor."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 2, "text": "So after choosing that clip - first of all, I should say, some listeners were probably thinking, he doesn't sound like Trump. What would you say to that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. Thank you for having me."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 3, "text": "After choosing that clip, I read that you improvised some of that scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", whether he's aware of that or not - because the voice, along with mannerisms and other physical characteristics that he has that we've become so accustomed to and we've been so oversaturated with, r"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 4, "text": "You made the film while Biden was president in between Trump's two terms. What's it like watching his second term after having played him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That whole clip actually was improvised. Yes. The scene in the script, as it was written - it started out with, you know, it just said, Donald finishes introducing Trump Tower, and he sits down, and h"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Playing him, I'm sure you had to be him and see things from his point of view, which requires you, the actor, to have empathy for Trump, the character that you're portraying.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's a really great question, and it's a - it's one where there's no real clear answer that I can give you. It's a mixed bag. It's a mixed bag. I mean, in a lot of ways, a lot of things look v"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 6, "text": "Trump sent a cease and desist letter to the filmmakers trying to prevent the film from opening in the U.S. He accused the film of defamation and interference in the election. The film was set to be released in the fall of 2024, a couple of months before the election. I'm wondering, with that cease and desist letter, if you felt like you were suddenly - or your film was suddenly the target of the same kind of tactics that you learned as Donald Trump in the film, so that you were living -", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think as an actor, you have to kind of go through a process where you look at, what are the things here that I feel that are useful for me to do this in the right way that it's asking of me? A"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 7, "text": "you were living the tactics that are played out in the film, except this time, you weren't Trump. You were on the other end. You were on the receiving end of the threats.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think as an actor, you have to kind of go through a process where you look at, what are the things here that I feel that are useful for me to do this in the right way that it's asking of me? A"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 8, "text": "So regarding the film, on Trump's social media platform, Truth Social, he wrote, so sad the human scum, like the people involved in this hopefully unsuccessful enterprise, are allowed to say and do whatever they want to hurt a political movement, which is far bigger than any of us - MAGA 2024. When you came to America after growing up under communism in Romania, then moving to Vienna with your mother and then coming to the U.S., I'm sure you didn't expect to become a famous actor. I'm really sure you didn't expect to portray a former and now current American president and have the president see the whole film as an insult, try to stop it from opening and call everybody involved with the film human scum.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when the letter came in, it was about an hour after the movie had finished premiering at Cannes. And we were in such a place of exhilaration to have even gotten to Cannes and actually finally pr"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 9, "text": "So what did it feel like when that happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Do you sense an element of fear in the entertainment industry now? I mean, Trump has promised retribution against his perceived enemies.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Again, it's like it's so - right? - it's in line with the recent White House sort of little boy stomping their feet into the playground, kind of crying wolf response about the film getting the nominat"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Sebastian Stan. He's nominated for an Oscar for his starring role as Donald Trump in the film \"The Apprentice.\" He won a Golden Globe in January for his performance in \"A Different Man.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think there's a degree of fear, or I would argue - and I think also, as we've experienced it, some degree of confusion about how to feel and how to deal with his sort of - him being president "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Sebastian Stan. He's nominated for an Oscar for his starring role as Donald Trump in the film \"The Apprentice.\" He won a Golden Globe in January for his performance in \"A Different Man\" as a man who's disfigured by a genetic condition that's caused tumors to grow on his face. When the condition is cured by an experimental drug, his face is handsome, but he's still the same lonely, socially uncomfortable, alienated person. I want to move on to another new film of yours, which has been playing on HBO lately and I assume on Max, and that's \"A Different Man,\" for which you won a Golden Globe in January. In this film, you're afflicted with neurofibromatosis, which is a genetic disease that creates fleshy tumors, and for you, fleshy tumors on the face. So you're kind of treated a bit like an outcast because people stare at you. They might move away. The character who you're attracted to who seems to be very fond of you just recoils when you try to touch her. So then you're part of a new drug experimental trial, and the drug cures the condition. The tumors kind of fall away, and you're very attractive underneath. You have a beautiful face. It's your face, it's Sebastian Stan's face, but your character doesn't change. You're alienated, you're isolated and that's not going to change. I'm wondering how much this film made you think about looks and how looks determine how people are treated in this world, which is something a lot of us think about all the time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think there's a degree of fear, or I would argue - and I think also, as we've experienced it, some degree of confusion about how to feel and how to deal with his sort of - him being president "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 13, "text": "Tell me about what you experienced doing that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, of course. I mean, how could it not? I mean, there were a couple of parts to the film that I sort of related to. I mean, one, you know, I struggled with weight when I was a little kid. You know,"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Sebastian Stan. And he's nominated for an Oscar for his starring role as Donald Trump in the film \"The Apprentice.\" And he won a Golden Globe last month for his performance in \"A Different Man.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, it was incredibly informative, obviously, for me as a character in terms of the physicality that I discovered from it. I mean, for one, you know, I could only see out of one eye and hear"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, it was incredibly informative, obviously, for me as a character in terms of the physicality that I discovered from it. I mean, for one, you know, I could only see out of one eye and hear"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 16, "text": "get back to my interview with Sebastian Stan. He's nominated for an Oscar for his starring role as Donald Trump in the film \"The Apprentice.\" He won a Golden Globe last month for his performance in \"A Different Man\" as a would-be actor who's disfigured by a genetic condition that's caused tumors to grow on his face. And when the condition is cured by an experimental drug, his face is handsome, but he's still the same lonely, socially uncomfortable, alienated person. And you probably also know him from \"I, Tonya,\" from the TV miniseries \"Pam & Tommy\" and from Marvel movies as Bucky Barnes in the \"Captain America\" movies. You grew up in Romania. And when you were growing up, I think you lived there till - what? - the age of 8 or 9?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, it was incredibly informative, obviously, for me as a character in terms of the physicality that I discovered from it. I mean, for one, you know, I could only see out of one eye and hear"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yeah. So you were very young during the end of communism in Romania, when the dictator Nicolae Ceausescu was overthrown. He was the head of the Communist Party there. There were protests. There were violent confrontations between the protesters and police. In 1989, as Ceausescu and his wife tried to escape, they were captured. He stood trial, found guilty and was executed. How aware were you as a child of what was happening in the country you were living in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, about 8, yeah, until - right after the revolution."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 18, "text": "They televised it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I remember watching the execution on television."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 19, "text": "How was he executed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I remember that happening. Yeah. I mean, I..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 20, "text": "Oh, that was it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were shot against a wall. You know, I do remember that because we only had 1 hour of news a night. That was the TV we had, you know, only 1 hour of television a day..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 21, "text": "So your father was able to get out of Romania before the Communist government fell, and I know he helped other people get out as well. Was he still married to your mother at the time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...With the exception of New Year's Eve, which, you know, had television all night long. And so I have these vivid memories about being able to stay up New Year's Eve and how it was this magical time."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Is he still alive?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no. My father was part of that generation of young people that were really trying to find a way to live around communism and stand up to communism. And, you know, he had been in the Navy. He had -"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Were you ever able to talk to him about this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. He's no longer alive. No."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Were you surprised to hear some of the things he told you about his past?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. Yeah. Yeah. He passed away recently, but we've had - we were able to sort of connect later in life, like, basically more when I was 17, 18. And he was in California at the time, and it was actu"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Yeah, well, when you came here, you had already lived in Romania. You had to learn German from scratch when you and your mother moved to Vienna. And I think, were you - how old were you when you came to the U.S.?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 26, "text": "OK, so you grow up in Romania where there's an hour of TV a night, and it's probably just propaganda. And then you move to America, where everybody just, like, watches TV and goes to the movies, and this is before - probably before the heavy days of the internet and social media.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I came when I was - officially, we moved in 1995, when I was 12. We had visited U.S. a couple times before that, and then we moved in '95, summer of '95."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 27, "text": "Yeah. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. There was none of that, none of that."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 28, "text": "You say it blew your mind, but I can imagine that a lot of pop culture did because you weren't a part of it. You didn't get to grow up with it the way everybody around you in America did.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I remember my first movies in a theater were \"Jurassic Park\" and \"Mrs. Doubtfire.\" I mean, that, like, that blew my mind, you know? And..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 29, "text": "What'd you do to try to catch up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it's true. And actually, I was always behind as a result, like for instance, with the Beatles. Or, you know, things that people kind of, like, just know, second nature, I was always discovering th"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 30, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think, you know, the survive mechanism is, like, you don't want to be different, you know? You want to just fit in? I remember being even, like, really insecure about my name, Sebastian, that "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 31, "text": "It seems like you spent part of your early life in hiding. You know, literally, you had watched what you said in Romania. In Vienna, you had to learn German to fit in. And, you know, you had to learn that from scratch. You come to America. You try to be like other teens even though you had a totally different background than American teens did. So there's a lot that you had to acquire and a lot, probably, that you had to hide.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, like, you just wanted to be - you just wanted to look like what everybody else is doing."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 32, "text": "We need to take a short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Sebastian Stan. He's nominated for an Oscar for his starring role as Donald Trump in the film \"The Apprentice,\" and he won a Golden Globe last month for his performance in \"A Different Man.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. No, well, I think you're right. But I think this is what acting did for me. Acting liberated me from that. I mean, it was really around the same time that I found acting, basically in high schoo"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 33, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Sebastian Stan. He's nominated for an Oscar for his starring role as Donald Trump in the film \"The Apprentice.\" He won a Golden Globe last month for his performance in \"A Different Man.\" And you probably also know him from \"I, Tonya,\" from the TV miniseries \"Pam & Tommy\" and from Marvel movies, as Bucky Barnes in the Captain America movies. So retracing your path again. So you grew up in Romania, when you're around 8 or 9, you move to Vienna, where your mother is a pianist. Is your mother still alive?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. No, well, I think you're right. But I think this is what acting did for me. Acting liberated me from that. I mean, it was really around the same time that I found acting, basically in high schoo"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 34, "text": "So she took you and moved to Vienna. And there in Vienna, she met a man who she fell in love with, who was the headmaster of a private school in Rockland County, New York, on the Hudson River.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, my mother is. Yeah. She was a pianist and is a pianist, I mean, doesn't play concertos anymore, but then also became a piano teacher. Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Oh. Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, actually, at the time, he was the headmaster of American International School - AIS - in Vienna."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 36, "text": "And that's how your mother met your stepfather?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I started in German public school. And then I went to the American International School, where they also spoke English."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 37, "text": "So then he got a job as a headmaster of a private school in Rockland County, New York, on the Hudson River. And you all moved to America. And you became a student at his school. How did that affect your status with teachers and classmates?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. My mom was teaching piano there, and then they've met. And his name was Anthony. And he also is no longer around. But, you know, I think to this day - I mean, I sort of touched about it in the G"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 38, "text": "So you started acting in high school.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, again, it was interesting, right? Because I sort of felt socially it was awkward for me because I couldn't - you know, nobody wanted to go hang out at the headmaster's kid's house over the weeke"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 39, "text": "Were you in musicals?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, again, it was interesting, right? Because I sort of felt socially it was awkward for me because I couldn't - you know, nobody wanted to go hang out at the headmaster's kid's house over the weeke"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 40, "text": "Oh, I love the idea of you doing \"Grease\" because you didn't really know what American teenagers were like, and you were trying to be an American teenager and here you are in \"Grease\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that's all I was in at the beginning. Yeah, I did \"Grease, \"Sweet Charity.\""}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 41, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that's all I was in at the beginning. Yeah, I did \"Grease, \"Sweet Charity.\""}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 42, "text": "So you were 21 when you got your breakthrough role in \"Law & Order\"...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And \"West Side Story\" was another one, I mean. But really a big - again, another definitive moment for me was this camp, Stagedoor Manor. I remember I called the owner at the time. It was Carl S"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 43, "text": "...Playing a 15-year-old boy. This was in the Jerry Orbach/Sam Waterston era. And so you played a 15-year-old who's kidnapped when he was very little. His kidnapper told him that his parents were dead and raised him as if he was really the father, and the kid believed, like, this is my father. And the father - or kidnapper is accused of murder, of being a sniper, and it's discovered that it was really the kid who did it. Do I have that right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 44, "text": "OK. So at some point, the kid's actual mother, who he believes is dead, and his sister, who he's never met, I don't think, are brought in to meet the boy. And the boy does not have a very good reaction to it. So let's hear that scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that they did it together. It was actually based on real father/son shooters."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 45, "text": "OK, a lot of people, when they're in \"Law & Order\" for the first time...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Justin Capshaw) I don't know why you brought me here (crying). Can I go now?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 46, "text": "...They're, like, a dead body", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 47, "text": ". But you got to have this, like, emotional breakdown in it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 48, "text": "What was it hard about it? What was hard?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, God. That was kind of hard to listen to. Just, you know, so much..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 49, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, so much acting, you know?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 50, "text": "What was it like to see yourself on TV? And what was it like to have other people see you on TV?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it just reminds me of, like, the James Dean school of acting, you know, that you go to when you're 18, 19, 20. But it's interesting. I hadn't heard or seen that scene in a long time, and every"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 51, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was hard. It's really not until recently that I've gotten OK with watching myself. In those earlier years, and up until recently, it was very, very difficult. I was very critical. I've always been "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 52, "text": "I have an acting question about the clip that we heard, where your response to hearing it was, so much acting - if you were to give your younger self notes now based on that scene, what notes would you give?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I remember feeling also this weird instinct that I was doing something right for myself, and I should keep going. It was never hindering or - in a way."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 53, "text": "OK, we need to take a short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Sebastian Stan. He's nominated for an Oscar for his starring role as Donald Trump in the film \"The Apprentice,\" and he won a Golden Globe last month for his performance in \"A Different Man.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Don't push anything. Don't work for something. I mean, it's funny because when I look - when I hear that scene, what I think about is the fact that the scene was written and designed for a certain res"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 54, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Sebastian Stan. He's nominated for an Oscar for his starring role as Donald Trump in the film \"The Apprentice.\" He won a Golden Globe last month for his performance in \"A Different Man.\" And you probably also know him from \"I, Tonya,\" from the TV miniseries \"Pam & Tommy\" and from Marvel movies as Bucky Barnes in the Captain America movies. So I'm thinking about your mother here. Your mother moves with you and your new stepfather to New York. You know, it's always hard to uproot a child and uproot them to another country. That's probably super hard. But I'm thinking the life you have now, the respect and fame that you've achieved, all that you've accomplished must make her feel really good about the decisions that she made and alleviate any guilt that she might have experienced at the beginning when you were trying so hard to acclimate to a new country.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Don't push anything. Don't work for something. I mean, it's funny because when I look - when I hear that scene, what I think about is the fact that the scene was written and designed for a certain res"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 55, "text": "So at the Oscars, I always wonder, what's it like if you lose and the camera is on you, and you have to pretend like, I'm so happy for the winner. That's so wonderful", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely. I think so. I mean, you know, my mother is coming with me to the Oscars. You know, she's my date. I think she's very proud, you know, and I'm so insanely grateful to her for supporting"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 56, "text": ", you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely. I think so. I mean, you know, my mother is coming with me to the Oscars. You know, she's my date. I think she's very proud, you know, and I'm so insanely grateful to her for supporting"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 57, "text": "Sebastian Stan, it's just been great to talk with you. Thank you so much. And good luck at the Oscars.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God. I mean, listen, I - like I was telling you, I mean, the impossible has already happened, you know? As somebody told me early on, when they said, you know, if you think this is going to be "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 58, "text": "Sebastian Stan is nominated for an Oscar for his starring role in the film \"The Apprentice.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR we'll talk about how Elon Musk got and is using the power to cut jobs, slash federal funding and help place people close to him in government positions. We'll also discuss the influence other tech billionaires are having on the Trump administration. My guest will be New York Times reporter Teddy Schleifer, who covers the intersection of Washington's players and tech titans. I hope you'll join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at NPR FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's been lovely. Thank you for having me, and I really appreciate your questions and taking the time."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-11", "guest": "Sebastian Stan", "title": "'The truth hurts': Sebastian Stan reflects on playing Trump in 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 59, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Briger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi, Anna Bauman and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our cohost is Tanya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's been lovely. Thank you for having me, and I really appreciate your questions and taking the time."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-12", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How did Elon Musk become so powerful in the Trump administration?", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. A new investigation into conflicts of interest posed by Elon Musk overseeing the drastic cost-cutting and dismantling of some federal agencies was published yesterday afternoon in The New York Times online. A few hours later, Musk and President Trump held a joint press conference during which they insisted Musk was operating with full transparency. Trump said he wouldn't allow Musk to look into areas that posed a conflict of interest. Musk controls six private companies, including SpaceX, Tesla and X - formerly Twitter. He gets billions of dollars from the federal government. My guest, Eric Lipton, along with Times reporter Kirsten Grind, spent the past year investigating Musk's business with the federal government. They learned that at least 11 federal agencies have more than 32 continuing investigations, pending complaints or enforcement actions into Musk's companies. Yesterday, before the Trump-Musk press conference, I spoke to Lipton about what the investigation uncovered. Eric Lipton, welcome to FRESH AIR. You're a reporter looking into these conflicts of interest. Is there anyone in an official capacity in the Trump administration or in Congress, or in any other official capacity, who is doing an investigation into possible conflicts of interest between Elon Musk and the departments and agencies that he is cutting jobs and costs?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-12", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How did Elon Musk become so powerful in the Trump administration?", "question_index": 1, "text": "And the Office of Government Ethics, which you mentioned - Trump just fired the head of it this week. That office had pending requests to investigate Musk for conflicts of interest. On what grounds?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's the somewhat startling thing to me as a reporter at this moment, is that there's really no one else beyond us - the team that's working on it from The New York Times - and other journalists, be"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-12", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How did Elon Musk become so powerful in the Trump administration?", "question_index": 2, "text": "So he is investigating spending and possible fraud in agencies and departments throughout the government. Is anybody investigating if there's any inefficiency or fraud in the about $3 billion he's getting from the government?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. I mean, really, there's never been anything quite like Elon Musk. This is a guy whose companies just last year, in 2024, received $3.8 billion worth of federal government contracts and, "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-12", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How did Elon Musk become so powerful in the Trump administration?", "question_index": 3, "text": "The National Labor Relations Board has 24 investigations into Musk's companies. Can you tell us a little bit about the nature of some of those investigations?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, again, the president, Trump, just neutered all 17 of the inspectors general who really had the greatest capacity to investigate potential waste, fraud and abuse in his contracts. And we "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-12", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How did Elon Musk become so powerful in the Trump administration?", "question_index": 4, "text": "And it's interesting, 'cause it sounds like some of the investigations into Musk's companies from the National Labor Relations Board are similar to the kinds of suits that Musk may face because of the way he's eliminating positions in federal agencies.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, for example, during the takeover of Twitter and its transformation into X, there were employees who felt that they were being improperly treated. They were dismissed. They were being subject to "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-12", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How did Elon Musk become so powerful in the Trump administration?", "question_index": 5, "text": "What about the courts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, Musk is taking a very similar approach to that which he took at Twitter and applying it to the federal government, which is to slash it radically and rapidly without much consideration f"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-12", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How did Elon Musk become so powerful in the Trump administration?", "question_index": 6, "text": "Let's look at the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, which was founded by Senator - Democratic Senator Elizabeth Warren. It received hundreds of complaints about Tesla, revolving around debt collection or loan problems. Tell us a little bit about the complaints.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, the courts, as we've seen, are really the one place - and the state attorneys general, the Democrats, have filed, you know, litigation. And there are various nonprofit groups and employee grou"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-12", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How did Elon Musk become so powerful in the Trump administration?", "question_index": 7, "text": "He basically shut down the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, they're mostly small-bore things, that, you know, people who bought cars were having disputes with the company over loans or the terms of financing, or the cars being - were being repossessed "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-12", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How did Elon Musk become so powerful in the Trump administration?", "question_index": 8, "text": "Let's look at the Federal Aviation Agency, which has fined SpaceX for safety violations. Tell a story about the launch of the satellite - the SpaceX satellite.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He called for - he said the CFPB rest - you know, RIP in a - now, whether or not he actually shut it down, he clearly supported it. He was mocking it and, you know, said, RIP, rest in peace, for the a"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-12", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How did Elon Musk become so powerful in the Trump administration?", "question_index": 9, "text": "Two hundred eighty-three thousand and nine dollars - that's, like, just a few dollars more than $283,000 - is probably a pittance to Elon Musk. So why is this such an offense to him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In the fall of 2023, there was a launch of a 10-ton satellite into geosynchronous orbit, which is, like, 22,000 miles out there. And it's the largest satellite ever launched in terms of its mass to th"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-12", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How did Elon Musk become so powerful in the Trump administration?", "question_index": 10, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guess is New York Times investigative reporter Eric Lipton. He's been investigating Musk's conflicts of interest in Musk's new position as the head of DOGE, the Department of Government Efficiency. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's trivial. I think the biggest thing that really frustrates him about the FAA is the amount of time it takes to get clearances to do new launches, particularly for the Starship, which is his "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-12", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How did Elon Musk become so powerful in the Trump administration?", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Eric Lipton. His latest article is about Musk's conflicts of interest in his new position as the head of DOGE, the Department of Government Efficiency, which is cutting costs - drastically cutting costs in some federal departments and agencies and laying off or trying to shut down some of those places. So the SEC, the Securities and Exchange Commission, has been investigating what Musk paid for Twitter and the backstory to that. So would you explain that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's trivial. I think the biggest thing that really frustrates him about the FAA is the amount of time it takes to get clearances to do new launches, particularly for the Starship, which is his "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-12", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How did Elon Musk become so powerful in the Trump administration?", "question_index": 12, "text": "So what were the consequences of Musk having purchased 5% of Twitter stock before saying that he was going to buy it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. The Securities and Exchange Commission is investigating whether or not Musk failed to honor a requirement to disclose - at the moment that he obtained 5% of Twitter, he needed to make a public f"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-12", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How did Elon Musk become so powerful in the Trump administration?", "question_index": 13, "text": "Was it hard to report the story and get the information that you needed? When I say this story, I mean...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Other investors would have likely bought Twitter stock at that point. That would have been a sign that Musk had the intention of potentially buying the company out. If you're going to accumulate that "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-12", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How did Elon Musk become so powerful in the Trump administration?", "question_index": 14, "text": "...The whole story you've written about conflicts of interest.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-12", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How did Elon Musk become so powerful in the Trump administration?", "question_index": 15, "text": "How much do you think Musk's efforts, combined with Trump's desire to basically gut a lot of government - how much is that reshaping what the federal government is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In the fall, we spent a month looking at all of Musk operations with the federal government - all of his contracts, all the investigations. We had a database that was built, and it allowed us to quick"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-12", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How did Elon Musk become so powerful in the Trump administration?", "question_index": 16, "text": "So, you know, we've been talking about several agencies that Musk has conflicts of interest with. But if you put all of the departments and all the agencies together that he is using his team to cut costs and cut jobs - if you put it all together, what is the significance that's different than looking at individual places?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I think that this is going to be significant, depending on whether or not it's not completely overturned by federal courts. But I think that this is going to be one of the bigger realignments "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-12", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How did Elon Musk become so powerful in the Trump administration?", "question_index": 17, "text": "I know you don't cover the courts, but some of the lawsuits that have been filed to try to stop Musk from following through on all of the cuts that he's making - some of those are likely to end up before the Supreme Court. There are several justices who consider themselves originalists, meaning that they either take a literal reading of the Constitution or their goal is to try to interpret the Constitution as closely as the founders would. So one of the basics of the Constitution is that Congress has powers of the purse. And another is the separation of powers and the - you know, the equal branches of government - Congress, judiciary and executive. And now the Trump administration seems to be saying, well, we have the power. The courts can't stop us. So do you have any idea - like, any guesses how the Supreme Court might rule on any of these appeals?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The thing that is most striking to me is just the number of places that he, through either contracts or regulatory investigations - that they are looking at him at the same time as he is - now has the"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-12", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How did Elon Musk become so powerful in the Trump administration?", "question_index": 18, "text": "Eric Lipton, I really want to thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If you look at the first Trump administration and then went into Biden, it's really striking, the extent of the pendulum swing. I mean, so many of the regulatory rollbacks that Trump implemented were "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-12", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How did Elon Musk become so powerful in the Trump administration?", "question_index": 19, "text": "Eric Lipton is an investigative reporter at The New York Times. Our interview was recorded yesterday. After we take a short break, I'll talk with Theodore Schleifer about how Musk became so powerful in the Trump administration and how Musk's political views shifted to the right. He covers the intersection of Silicon Valley and politics for The New York Times. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-12", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How did Elon Musk become so powerful in the Trump administration?", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Elon Musk and his Department of Government Efficiency are reshaping the federal government, inserting themselves into departments and agencies with the goal of drastically slashing costs and cutting jobs. Musk isn't the only tech billionaire that's a player now in the Trump administration. My guest, New York Times reporter Theodore Schleifer, says those tech leaders are emboldened, and they have their fingerprints all over the second Trump administration. What does this say about the influence of Silicon Valley's ultrawealthy on our current government? The intersection between Silicon Valley and politics is a subject Schleifer has been reporting on for years. His Times bio describes him as covering billionaires and their impact on the world. Theodore Schleifer, welcome to FRESH AIR. I'm wondering, has Musk always wanted to have a hand in reshaping government?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-12", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How did Elon Musk become so powerful in the Trump administration?", "question_index": 21, "text": "But, you know, like, he has tweeted or retweeted conspiracy theories. He's endorsing the far-right party in Germany. He's aligned with the far-right in the U.S. now. Is there more of an explanation of how that started happening, assuming it's something relatively new?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Elon Musk a couple of years ago couldn't care less about this stuff. He was like lots of wealthy tech executives, who, you know, probably voted for Democrats. You know, we know he voted for Obama."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-12", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How did Elon Musk become so powerful in the Trump administration?", "question_index": 22, "text": "Tell us more about the personal story you alluded to.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the timeline starts during COVID. Elon Musk at this time, let's say pre-COVID, in 2019, is somebody who is a center-left Democrat, doesn't really care about politics. But what happens is Musk "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-12", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How did Elon Musk become so powerful in the Trump administration?", "question_index": 23, "text": "So do you think he sees his trans child as a victim of woke ideology?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Elon Musk has a lot of kids. Elon has, you know, had a lot of marriages or had kids with women who are not his wife. And one of his children began to identify as trans. And Elon has said publicl"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-12", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How did Elon Musk become so powerful in the Trump administration?", "question_index": 24, "text": "So is Elon Musk a one off, or do you think that a lot of the Silicon Valley billionaires have become more conservative, have drifted more to the right in recent years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think he's basically said as much. Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-12", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How did Elon Musk become so powerful in the Trump administration?", "question_index": 25, "text": "So one of the things happening now with Musk, or at least it's happening now as we record this Tuesday morning, he's leading a group of investors who are trying to execute a hostile takeover of a nonprofit that controls the artificial intelligence company OpenAI. And that's the company behind ChatGPT. It's headed by Sam Altman. Musk had been involved with this group early on. So whatever this is about, I'm just wondering, like, if Elon Musk has some control over this huge AI company. I know Elon Musk is working on his own AI company, but it's not as developed as OpenAI is. Correct me if I'm wrong.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is just the culmination of everything that came during the Biden era. When I moved to Silicon Valley in 2017, it was impossible to be an outspoken Republican because you would be allying yourself"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-12", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How did Elon Musk become so powerful in the Trump administration?", "question_index": 26, "text": "But if someone like Musk, who has endorsed conspiracy theories and is far-right now in some of his politics - if he takes over, or him and the consortium take over a really major AI company, and if they feed it the things that Musk believes now, certain conspiracy theories - if that gets into AI as fact, what would that mean? And am I just interpreting this all wrong?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-12", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How did Elon Musk become so powerful in the Trump administration?", "question_index": 27, "text": "So do you see liberal billionaires trying to put money to stop with the conservative - like, how are the liberal billionaires reacting to all of the very conservative billionaires that are embedded, in one way or another, in the Trump administration?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, look - Elon is an interesting person on AI, where he has all those beliefs, you know, personally about the world and culture and politics. And he also has beliefs that I think would be c"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-12", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How did Elon Musk become so powerful in the Trump administration?", "question_index": 28, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Theodore Schleifer. And he's a reporter for The New York Times who covers, among other things, the intersection of Silicon Valley and Washington politics. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Liberal billionaires have really been MIA, Terry. I mean, we - it's been very hard to see sort of any leadership from wealthy Democrats about what exactly their plan is to take on Trump. They're not r"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-12", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How did Elon Musk become so powerful in the Trump administration?", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Teddy Schleifer at The New York Times, who has been covering the intersection of the Silicon Valley and Washington politics and lately has been focusing on Elon Musk and other tech billionaires and their roles in - and influence on - the Trump administration. As you've pointed out, there isn't a lot of transparency in what Musk is doing in terms of job and cost-cutting. And he has said secrecy is necessary to the team of young people who he has carrying out his orders at departments and agencies. Russell Vought, who's the new head of the Office of Management and Budget, said, we want the bureaucrats to be traumatically affected. When they wake up in the morning, we want them to not want to go to work because they are increasingly viewed as the villains. And Trump, for years, has been calling, for instance, the press the enemy of the people. And Musk has accused USAID of being a criminal organization and said, time for it to die. Does that seem a little unusual - that Musk could say, oh, we just don't want to make our own people targets, when some of the Trump administration people have really put targets on the back of so many people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Liberal billionaires have really been MIA, Terry. I mean, we - it's been very hard to see sort of any leadership from wealthy Democrats about what exactly their plan is to take on Trump. They're not r"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-12", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How did Elon Musk become so powerful in the Trump administration?", "question_index": 30, "text": "So one of the big concerns is that Musk's team has wanted access to the Treasury Department's payment system. And the Treasury...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. I mean, this is a war, in Elon Musk's view, a war on the bureaucracy, and there's no Geneva Convention for this war. There are no beliefs from the Musk team that they have to be fair or believe "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-12", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How did Elon Musk become so powerful in the Trump administration?", "question_index": 31, "text": "...Department disperses about $5 trillion in funding, and it has everybody's sensitive information in there. How far has the Musk team gotten in their attempt to get into the payment system?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-12", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How did Elon Musk become so powerful in the Trump administration?", "question_index": 32, "text": "The U.S. Digital Service is now renamed the U.S. DOGE Service. And it was established in 2014 to fix the federal government's online services. What can you tell us about this service and what it means that it's now renamed with the DOGE brand?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Pretty far. You know, the Musk team has been sort of fighting the bureaucracy of the Treasury Department over what sort of access they could get to the payment system. But as of now, you know, the Elo"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-12", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How did Elon Musk become so powerful in the Trump administration?", "question_index": 33, "text": "Let's take another break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is New York Times Reporter Teddy Schleifer. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the U.S. Digital Service was started during the second Obama term as a way to get more technologists into government, and it largely was doing things like, you know, pushing for making it easier to"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-12", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How did Elon Musk become so powerful in the Trump administration?", "question_index": 34, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Theodore Schleifer, a New York Times reporter who's been covering the intersection of the Silicon Valley and Washington politics and lately has been focusing on Elon Musk and other tech billionaires and their roles in and influence on the Trump administration. One of your articles was about investigating who are the people working with Musk on DOGE, the young people who are going into agencies and departments and trying to lay off people and - or fire them and cut costs. What are some of the things you were able to learn about who they are and how they're being selected?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the U.S. Digital Service was started during the second Obama term as a way to get more technologists into government, and it largely was doing things like, you know, pushing for making it easier to"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-12", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How did Elon Musk become so powerful in the Trump administration?", "question_index": 35, "text": "That's funny, I assumed there were more 'cause there's so many agencies and departments that they're working on.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There is about 40 of these people, we think, who are working for DOGE..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-12", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How did Elon Musk become so powerful in the Trump administration?", "question_index": 36, "text": "When we talk about, like, spending in Washington politics or political power in terms of private enterprise, it was always about corporations. And now you're specializing in writing about billionaires...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, but you can be working at 26 different agencies before breakfast. You know, a lot of these folks have multiple jobs simultaneously, multiple detail assignments simultaneously, and they sort of j"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-12", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How did Elon Musk become so powerful in the Trump administration?", "question_index": 37, "text": "...Who own corporations - multiple corporations, in the case of Elon Musk. So do you think the balance of power has kind of switched to individuals, as opposed to companies?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-12", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How did Elon Musk become so powerful in the Trump administration?", "question_index": 38, "text": "So a lot of Trump watchers have described Trump as somebody who wants to be the person getting the most attention, whether it's on the media or, you know, in terms of political power. And Musk is getting so much attention now, and you're contributing to that by writing so much - by reporting so much on Musk and his influence in the Trump administration. There was a Time magazine cover where it was Musk at the Resolute desk in the White House. You know, some people are predicting that this relationship can't last long because they both want to be the most powerful person. Do you have any insight into that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Certainly, post-Citizens United, you know, there's been this ability of individuals to spend unlimited money on political campaigns. And that has empowered wealthy people, as opposed to wealthy corpor"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-12", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How did Elon Musk become so powerful in the Trump administration?", "question_index": 39, "text": "Teddy Schleifer, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I feel like I'm tempted to offer a contrarian opinion - that I just believe it's not going to blow up immediately. Look, the - these are clearly two larger-than-life personalities, to put it mil"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-12", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How did Elon Musk become so powerful in the Trump administration?", "question_index": 40, "text": "Theodore Schleifer covers the intersection of Silicon Valley and politics and the global influence of billionaires for The New York Times. We recorded the interview yesterday before the Trump-Musk press conference. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be filmmaker, photographer, professor and writer RaMell Ross. He's nominated for an Oscar for best adapted screenplay for the film \"Nickel Boys,\" which he also directed. The movie is also nominated for best picture. It's about two young Black men in the '60s attempting to survive a brutal reformatory. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You bet."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-12", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How did Elon Musk become so powerful in the Trump administration?", "question_index": 41, "text": "Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi, Anna Bauman and Joel Wolfram. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You bet."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 0, "text": "What were the first records you bought? Can you remember?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "On today's show, we'll hear from Alan Zweibel and cast member Jon Lovitz, and also from Al Franken, a writer and performer who went from the halls of \"Saturday Night Live\" to the corridors of the U.S."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 1, "text": "So what was in your parents' record collection? What did they listen to? And how did that affect what you liked or didn't like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the first records, of course, were, you know, The Beatles and The Stones. And then I think the seminal record for me was the \"East-West\" record that Paul Butterfield did in the late '60s with El"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 2, "text": "Now, I read about you that you had a pretty strict Catholic upbringing, that you went to Catholic school. Did...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my dad used to pore over the newspapers and look for record collections that were used. So he would go and he'd see that some guy in Ottawa or Hull or where we were living there would be selling"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 3, "text": "Seminary? Whoa, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Seminary."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 4, "text": "So you're growing up in Canada. You're going to a seminary and listening to blues and rock 'n' roll and rhythm and blues.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mm-hmm."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 5, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And seeing guys on stage in my high school imitating Mick Jagger..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 6, "text": "OK. That's where I'm heading. Were you - did you - long before you became part of the Blues Brothers and you developed this kind of alter ego for yourself, did you have a pose when you were in high school? Did you want to be Black? Did you want to be a blues musician? Did you want to be somebody who you weren't and kind of take on that pose in real life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Imitating The Animals."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 7, "text": "And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. I wanted to be Paul Butterfield and Charlie Musselwhite, and I used to walk around in a long trench coat, a long brown trench coat with shades, and I'd slick my hair back. And I'd try to find an"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 8, "text": "Did you sing then? Or - I know you played drums...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Then my friend Gary O'Dwyer (ph), who was now a school principal up in Cobourg, Ontario - he was pretending to be Eric Burdon. And I had - you know, the math whiz in class in grade 11 was pretending t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 9, "text": "...And harmonica.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I played harp..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 10, "text": "How did you and Belushi start the whole Blues Brothers routine?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Mostly and sang. Yeah. The drumming was sporadic, but, you know, I filled in for bands now and again when I was growing up."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 11, "text": "Wow. So you were doing the real thing before you did the parodies.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One of my first jobs in broadcasting was working for Citytv in Toronto, which was this whole new concept in urban television that really - basically, today, your news desk - your news desks across Ame"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 12, "text": "Let me ask about one of the parody commercials you did. And this is a terrific video compilation of your best - or some of your best sketches from \"Saturday Night Live.\" And this is the one for the Bass-O-Matic. It's, like, a blender that turns fish into a delicious shake", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was, yeah. I was a mailman in Toronto when I first moved there. I knew I wanted to go to Toronto to work with Lorne Michaels again. I had gone there to do a special with him when I was 19, went back"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was, yeah. I was a mailman in Toronto when I first moved there. I knew I wanted to go to Toronto to work with Lorne Michaels again. I had gone there to do a special with him when I was 19, went back"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 14, "text": "Tell me how you came up with this...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think people remember. Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 15, "text": "...And if it relates to a real ad that you ever did.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 16, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. No, no, my aunt, the late Helene Gougeon - she's - she was a lovely woman, my mother's sister. She was, in fact, the Julia Child of Canada."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She had - yep. She had a television show and a cuisine shop in Montreal during the '60s. And she - I went to her house for lunch, and she was a, you know, master gourmet chef, and she was very well kn"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 18, "text": "Well, let's hear Dan Aykroyd advertising the Bass-O-Matic on \"Saturday Night Live.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I - with the bones and everything, you know? She said, oh, no, don't worry. The bones - you pick the bones out like you were eating a fillet. Don't worry about it. And I never forgot that. And then, y"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 19, "text": "So you cocreated the Emily Litella character with her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was a great writer, undisciplined in that she wouldn't sit down at a typewriter and stay up all night, you know. However, whenever we would write together, it was usually by virtue of me taking a "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 20, "text": "Can you describe the creation of the Roseanne Roseannadanna character?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Emily Litella) Never mind."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 21, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there was once a sketch called Hire The Incompetent that I believe Rosie Shuster wrote, where Gilda appeared with that wig. And Hire The Incompetent were - was interviews with three people who w"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 22, "text": "What's your system of pushing for something when you're arguing with a censor or with a producer about your material? Do you make a strong case about why it's really not in bad taste - explain what the joke is?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University. We're celebrating 50 years of \"Saturday Night Live,\" featuring interviews with early cast members and write"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 23, "text": "Why not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, you know, people think we really don't like the censors, that they're our enemies. And the fact is I spend more time with the censors at NBC than with, you know, almost anybody else other than o"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 24, "text": "But let me just ask you when a sketch of yours is killed, either before it airs or, in this case, it was killed...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because it dealt with drugs, and it got laughs. And there is this prejudice against comedy, which is if you do comedy, therefore, it isn't serious. You know, they're just two separate things."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 25, "text": "It was killed for the rerun. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was very unusual."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 26, "text": "What do you do? I mean, do you just accept it, or do you go in and make a big argument about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that was unusual."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we're beginning to try to make an argument higher up. We're thinking maybe this is something General Electric will understand, that we're in competition with cable and \"Saturday Night Live's\" on"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 28, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And you go, she was, you know, star of \"Laverne & Shirley.\" Now a director. Married to \"All In The Family's\" Meathead one time. Penny Marshall, Jew or not a Jew?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 29, "text": "Well, actually, it's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then ding, ding, ding, ding, take it, Nofflers (ph). You know, she looks - she's from New York or something. She's got a big nose. We're going to say Jew. (Imitating buzzer). Sorry, Penny Marshall"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 30, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...See Mel Ferrer on TV and go, you think he's a Jew? I don't know."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 31, "text": "I think it's a preoccupation that a lot of Jewish people have trying to figure out who's Jewish and who isn't.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And my dad would go, you know, Leslie Howard is Jewish, Alan. Really? Yes, he is."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 32, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 33, "text": "So that never got on the air?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 34, "text": "Taking it to the top.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, never got on the air. And it's just stupid, you know? I mean, I think at one point, they, like, asked some rabbi if it was OK to put it on or something."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 35, "text": "You started on \"Saturday Night Live,\" the first season it was on.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 36, "text": "And you've been in and out of the show several times, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 37, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I - Tom and I have worked - we're called Lorne again. We've been there whenever..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 38, "text": "First show this season that I saw you on \"Saturday Night Live...\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Lorne's there. Lorne again writers. And so we've been there from - we were there for the first five years, and now we've been here or there for the last three."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 39, "text": "...You had revived the Al Franken Decade?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 40, "text": "How did you first come up with it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 41, "text": "Al Franken, thanks a lot for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I figured the - I'd just make it the Al Franken Decade."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 42, "text": "How did you come up with the kind of whiny voice that you used for the character?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Stuart) I'm going to do a great guided visualization tape. And I'm going to help people because I'm good enough, I'm smart enough, and doggone it, people like me. Hello, I'm Stuart Smalley. And we"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 43, "text": "I think that's one of the things I really love about the character is that you do kind of have it both ways, you know? It's, like, really funny, and you're really mocking the character, and at the same time, you could tell you have a real kind of affection and caring", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, the voice, it's funny. Sometimes when you write something, it comes with a voice, and this just did. And I don't know why exactly other than maybe there are a few people - I actually belong "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 44, "text": "for him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, the voice, it's funny. Sometimes when you write something, it comes with a voice, and this just did. And I don't know why exactly other than maybe there are a few people - I actually belong "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 45, "text": "How do you deal with some of the language of the recovery movement, which you mock a lot, but also probably have some respect for it, too. Like Stuart's always saying, you know, well, this isn't my best show, but that's OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, actually, people who know me very well know that there's a lot of Stuart inside of me, a lot of the insecurity and a lot of the self-doubt and all that stuff. And I think it's in a lot of people"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 46, "text": "So there's all this, like, affirmation in the language.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 47, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, affirmations are - I mean, first of all, our program has this incredible amount of jargon."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 48, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So all it really is, is just a way for someone to grasp, hold onto a concept. And most of these concepts are pretty sound. And so, but the jargon can get pretty grating and silly. And yet, when the "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 49, "text": "What are some of your other favorite?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Which was a gift through the mail. So if you're listening and you got good ones, send them to me. Stuart will use them."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 50, "text": "Yes, I like that a lot.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Another one someone sent to me was, (as Stuart) it's easier to put on slippers than to carpet the entire world."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 51, "text": "Now, tell me your reaction to this aspect of the recovery movement, the people who say humor is a good recovery tool.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And there's one I'm doing that I heard in program that I'm using this week, because Stuart I think is going to be on the show this week. He's apologizing for yesterday's show, which is what he always "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 52, "text": "Yeah", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Stuart believes that."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 53, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Stuart believes that."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 54, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He says - one of the affirmations is, (as Stuart) today, I will laugh at least once."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 55, "text": "There are some people in the recovery movement who really do believe that humor is good therapy. So although they are humorless themselves, they have taught themselves, like, little jokes and little ways to be humorous. And they're very proud of it. And it's a kind of, like, prescription for their health. Do you come across people like that? And I wonder how you react to them and how they react to you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Stuart) And I've already laughed today, so I'm fine."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 56, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, it's funny. As you said that, it's true, and it's the first time I've realized that, which I can't believe that's the first time I realized that. Thank you. No, it is true."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 57, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But, no, you're absolutely right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 58, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I went to college at UC Irvine. And there was a professor of mine, William Needles, who taught me Shakespeare. And when he would do it, though, himself, he'd always go - he'd say, like, the open"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 59, "text": "One of my favorite sketches of the ones that you've done on \"Saturday Night Live\" was Harry Hanukkah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...The brightest heaven of invention. Like that. And I thought it was very funny. And I thought it was very good but very funny, too. And I used to imitate him. And then I kind of put it together with"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 60, "text": "Did you write that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 61, "text": "(Imitating Ned Glass) What's wrong with you kids", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, Al Franken and Mike Myers wrote it. But I based it on - they wrote it, and it was really funny. And then I based it on this actor, Ned Glass. Ned Glass, (imitating Ned Glass) he talks like this. A"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 62, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, Al Franken and Mike Myers wrote it. But I based it on - they wrote it, and it was really funny. And then I based it on this actor, Ned Glass. Ned Glass, (imitating Ned Glass) he talks like this. A"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 63, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, if you've seen these movies, then you know who he is. When I was 15 years old, I was at my best friend's house. And his father is a doctor, and Ned Glass was one of his patients. And I"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 64, "text": "That's great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Anyways, I never forgot him so I..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 65, "text": "Were there any jokers in your family? Did you have a father who'd sit around the dinner table and tell jokes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he was good. He was a funny actor, you know, he's funny. But, you know, he never - I guess he always thought he played all these different characters. And really, he was just always, (imitating Ne"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 66, "text": "So he really had a twin brother Howard?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess he'd just wait in his car. And then we'd say, Howard was here. He goes, he was, you know?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 67, "text": "Oh, he didn't.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, he didn't."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-14", "guest": "George Carlin", "title": "'Fresh Air' celebrates 50 years of 'SNL' with interviews from the archives", "question_index": 68, "text": "Oh, I see. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. He just said he did."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-19", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist describes Trump's movements as a 'regime change' towards authoritarianism", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. \"There's A Term For What Musk And Trump Are Doing\" (ph). That's the headline of the latest Atlantic magazine article by my guest, Anne Applebaum. The term, she says, is regime change. She writes, \"no one should be surprised or insulted by this phrase because this is exactly what Trump and many who support him have long desired.\" She points out during his 2024 campaign, Donald Trump spoke of Election Day as Liberation Day, a moment when people he described as vermin and radical left lunatics would be eliminated from public life. Before Applebaum started writing about America moving to the right and Trump moving toward authoritarianism, she was writing about how some European countries were becoming authoritarian. Last weekend, she was at the Munich Security Conference where Vice President JD Vance and Secretary of State Pete Hegseth were dismissive of NATO and its importance for American as well as European security, marking a turning point in the post-World War II alliance. It left European leaders shocked and worried. Applebaum is a staff writer for The Atlantic. She's also a senior fellow at the SNF Agora Institute at Johns Hopkins University and the School of Advanced International Studies. Her latest book is \"Autocracy, Inc.: The Dictators Who Want To Run The World.\" Her other books include \"Twilight Of Democracy,\" \"Red Famine: Stalin's War On Ukraine\" and \"Gulag: A History,\" which won the Pulitzer Prize for general nonfiction. She's a former Washington Post columnist and member of the editorial board. We recorded our interview yesterday morning. Anne Applebaum, welcome back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-19", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist describes Trump's movements as a 'regime change' towards authoritarianism", "question_index": 1, "text": "You're calling what's happening in the U.S. under the Trump regime, regime change. Can you expand on why you're using that language? In the past, you've used words like illiberal democracy or authoritarianism. The description keeps getting more extreme.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-19", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist describes Trump's movements as a 'regime change' towards authoritarianism", "question_index": 2, "text": "I want to talk about that more in-depth. But first, I want to talk about what happened over the weekend at the Munich Security Conference, which you attended to report on. So let's talk about how shocked European leaders were by what JD Vance and Secretary of State Pete Hegseth had to say about NATO and about Europe's far right, and how shocked they were at how the U.S. has sidelined Europe and even Ukraine from the initial negotiations with Russia about ending the war in Ukraine. Hegseth said that European allies should increase military spending and decrease their reliance on Washington and that Trump will not allow anyone to turn Uncle Sam into Uncle Sucker. Vance said, if NATO wants us to continue supporting them, and NATO wants us to continue to be a good participant in this military alliance, why don't you respect American values and respect free speech? You have a lot of contacts in Europe. I mean, your husband is the foreign minister of Poland. You live part-time in Poland and part-time in the U.S. in Washington. What did you hear behind the scenes about the reaction of European leaders to what American leaders said about NATO?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's very important to understand that DOGE, the Department of Government Efficiency, is not primarily interested in efficiency. If it were, it wouldn't have encouraged mass resignations in th"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-19", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist describes Trump's movements as a 'regime change' towards authoritarianism", "question_index": 3, "text": "I'm going to stop you there because I just want to play a clip that illustrates the point that you're making. You know, he was talking about Europeans being afraid of free speech and that they were using words like misinformation and disinformation, which he described as ugly Soviet-era words. And so he was talking about that and about how there should be room for, like, all parties because, like, the other parties in Germany won't form an alliance with the far-right party that you've been describing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Funny enough, what was important about Vance's speech was actually that he did not speak about NATO. So it's very important to understand the context. He was talking to a large room filled with defens"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-19", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist describes Trump's movements as a 'regime change' towards authoritarianism", "question_index": 4, "text": "Isn't it No. 2 in the polls?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. But to be clear, the far-right party has access to television. Its leader has been on television debates. It's on the ballot."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-19", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist describes Trump's movements as a 'regime change' towards authoritarianism", "question_index": 5, "text": "So here's JD Vance, speaking over the weekend at the Munich Security Conference.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's No. 2 in the polls. It's - I mean, stipulate there are a number of parties in Germany, so it's - it looks at the moment around 20%, but it is absolutely accessible. You can vote for it. The idea "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-19", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist describes Trump's movements as a 'regime change' towards authoritarianism", "question_index": 6, "text": "What's your interpretation of what he said there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I believe deeply that there is no security if you're afraid of the voices, the opinions and the conscience that guide your very own people. Europe faces many challenges, but the crisis this contin"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-19", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist describes Trump's movements as a 'regime change' towards authoritarianism", "question_index": 7, "text": "When he says, there's nothing America can do for you, is that meant to be some kind of threat or just a kind of, like, moral condescension?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was an insult. He was telling Europeans that he doesn't respect their voting systems, but also he was playing with language. Again, he represents the political movement that sought to overturn an e"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-19", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist describes Trump's movements as a 'regime change' towards authoritarianism", "question_index": 8, "text": "So tell me what you heard from European leaders and your contacts in Europe.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think in the context, it could be interpreted as a threat. And remembering that a few days earlier, the American secretary of defense had said that Europe will need to begin looking elsewhere for se"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-19", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist describes Trump's movements as a 'regime change' towards authoritarianism", "question_index": 9, "text": "And what are Europe's primary security concerns right now, especially if America either totally distances itself or pulls out of NATO?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let me describe to you a conversation I had with a German member of parliament who I've known for some time. I met him at Munich. I had actually seen him at Munich the year before. And he reminded me "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-19", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist describes Trump's movements as a 'regime change' towards authoritarianism", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yeah. Ukraine's President Zelenskyy has suggested that Europe create its own military force independent of NATO.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think anyone expects the U.S. to pull out of NATO because that would create a kind of drama that I don't think President Trump wants. But I think it's important that people understand that NAT"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-19", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist describes Trump's movements as a 'regime change' towards authoritarianism", "question_index": 11, "text": "So during the first Trump administration, President Zelenskyy of Ukraine seemed to try to flatter Trump as a way of courting support. Did he shift away from that while speaking in Munich? Do you see that as a change?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So to be clear, Europeans do have armies. Europeans have contributed half of all the aid that has gone to Ukraine since the war has begun. Many Europeans have invested heavily in their armies and in t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-19", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist describes Trump's movements as a 'regime change' towards authoritarianism", "question_index": 12, "text": "My guest is Anne Applebaum, a staff writer for The Atlantic. Her latest book is called \"Autocracy, Inc.: The Dictators Who Want To Run The World.\" We recorded our interview yesterday morning. Later, President Trump was asked about Ukrainian objections to being shut out of the initial talks to end the war. Trump responded by falsely blaming Ukraine for starting the war with Russia. Trump said, quote, \"you should have never started it. You could have made a deal.\" This morning, we reached out to Anne Applebaum for her reaction. She emailed us this. Quote, \"Trump is now repeating Russian propaganda. Ukraine did not start the war. Ukraine has not refused to negotiate. When they tried in 2022, Russia offered only one option - surrender. Russian goals are the same now as at the beginning of the war - remove Ukrainian sovereignty. Make Ukraine into a vassal state. Ukrainians know that Russian occupation would mean death, destruction and the loss of identity. If the U.S. sides with Russia against Ukraine, we will boost Russian allies all over the world - in China, Iran, North Korea, Venezuela. Many people in the administration and Congress understand what a disaster this would be for the American economy and American power,\" unquote. We'll hear more of my interview with Anne Applebaum after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think up until now, President Zelenskyy has been seeking to flatter Trump. I mean, actually, the idea that Ukraine would sell some rare earth minerals to the United States was his idea. He came up w"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-19", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist describes Trump's movements as a 'regime change' towards authoritarianism", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with journalist Anne Applebaum, a staff writer for The Atlantic, where she's been writing about Trump's move toward authoritarianism. She was at the Munich Security Conference over the weekend. You have referred to Musk using X to try to influence the election in Germany in favor of the far-right party. You know, American elections are always being threatened by foreign interference nowadays - from China, from Russia, from their bots, from false information, conspiracy theories. But now Europe is worrying about foreign interference from the U.S. through social media. You wrote a whole article about this - about how it's really, like, threatening European elections. What are some of the biggest concerns now about American threats to European elections?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think up until now, President Zelenskyy has been seeking to flatter Trump. I mean, actually, the idea that Ukraine would sell some rare earth minerals to the United States was his idea. He came up w"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-19", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist describes Trump's movements as a 'regime change' towards authoritarianism", "question_index": 14, "text": "There is something called the European Union's Digital Services Act, which went into effect last year. What can it do? It's in the middle of an investigation, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Most countries don't have elections that run as we run ours in the United States. So we have a kind of Las Vegas. You can - anybody can put as much money as they want into the campaign. Anonymously, y"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-19", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist describes Trump's movements as a 'regime change' towards authoritarianism", "question_index": 15, "text": "Is that an explanation that you think is plausible? 'Cause you wrote that a group of American oligarchs want to undermine EU institutions because these oligarchs don't want to be regulated.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Digital Services Act was designed to create greater transparency. So, for example, to force X or to force Facebook to reveal to users how it uses their information, how it uses their data, how it "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-19", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist describes Trump's movements as a 'regime change' towards authoritarianism", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you so we can take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Anne Applebaum, a staff writer for The Atlantic. Her latest book is called \"Autocracy, Inc.: The Dictators Who Want To Run The World.\" She's also the author of \"Twilight Of Democracy.\" We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It certainly looks like that's what's happening. There isn't really another plausible explanation for why so many of them have begun to support anti-European political parties. Also, it's true that so"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-19", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist describes Trump's movements as a 'regime change' towards authoritarianism", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Anne Applebaum, a staff writer for The Atlantic, where she's been writing about America's turn to the right and Trump's move toward authoritarianism. She's also written extensively about how some European countries have become or risk becoming authoritarian. Last weekend, she was at the Munich Security Conference, which left many European leaders stunned and worried about Vice President JD Vance and Secretary of State Pete Hegseth's dismissiveness about NATO's importance to America. Her latest books are \"Autocracy, Inc.: The Dictators Who Want To Run The World\" and \"Twilight Of Democracy.\" Do you have any insights into why President Trump wants to distance himself from NATO while he seems to be aligning himself with Putin?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It certainly looks like that's what's happening. There isn't really another plausible explanation for why so many of them have begun to support anti-European political parties. Also, it's true that so"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-19", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist describes Trump's movements as a 'regime change' towards authoritarianism", "question_index": 18, "text": "And what are the countries that are already leaning toward authoritarianism in Europe now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's not clear to me yet that Trump is aligning himself with Putin. It's clear that he has agreed to many of Putin's explanations of and theories about the war in Ukraine. So he does use some of Putin"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-19", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist describes Trump's movements as a 'regime change' towards authoritarianism", "question_index": 19, "text": "You mentioned that some people on the right in America are very supportive of Orban and admire him. He spoke to one of the CPAC conferences, the Conservative Political Action Conference. And at one of those conferences, he said Hungary is actually an incubator, where experiments are done on the future of conservative politics. Hungary is the place where we didn't just talk about defeating the progressives and liberals and causing a conservative Christian political turn, but we actually did it. Do you think the Trump administration has taken some actions from the Orban playbook?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The poster child, the country that many people speak about and refer to is Hungary. And Hungary's a very important country for Americans to understand because Hungary is a country that elected democra"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-19", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist describes Trump's movements as a 'regime change' towards authoritarianism", "question_index": 20, "text": "Orban has really advocated on the far-right side of the culture wars, and he said the woke movement and gender ideology are exactly what communism and Marxism used to be. They artificially cut the nation into minorities in order to spark strife among the groups.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Trump administration has absolutely taken actions from the Orban playbook. We know, for example, Project 2025, which is - was a kind of blueprint written by the think tank The Heritage Foundation "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-19", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist describes Trump's movements as a 'regime change' towards authoritarianism", "question_index": 21, "text": "Yeah. I was wondering about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One of the strange thing is is there was - I didn't know what he's talking about. I mean, there is no woke movement in Hungary. I mean, he - most of what he..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-19", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist describes Trump's movements as a 'regime change' towards authoritarianism", "question_index": 22, "text": "And he endorsed Trump in 2016. I don't know if he said anything in 2020 or 2024. But it sounds like not only is the right borrowing from the Orban playbook, but Orban is borrowing from the far-right playbook in America.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no. He borrowed the American culture war and used it in Hungary as a way of attacking his enemies. It was one of the things that he did that Hungarians found very strange but seems to have worked."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-19", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist describes Trump's movements as a 'regime change' towards authoritarianism", "question_index": 23, "text": "My guest is journalist Anne Applebaum, a staff writer for The Atlantic, where she's been writing about America's turn toward the right and Trump's move toward authoritarianism. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's - sure. It's a two-way project. I mean, I think it's also important maybe at this point to stress that the project of destroying your democracy as an elected leader is something that you don't ha"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-19", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist describes Trump's movements as a 'regime change' towards authoritarianism", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with journalist Anne Applebaum, a staff writer for The Atlantic, where she's been writing about Trump's move toward authoritarianism. Her latest book is called \"Autocracy, Inc.: The Dictators Who Want To Run The World.\" Let's look at Poland. Your husband is the foreign minister of Poland, and you're very familiar with Polish politics. You live part time in Poland and part time in Washington, D.C. Poland had moved from a hard-won democracy to approaching authoritarianism, and then it moved back to democracy. How did it return to democracy? Was it through resistance to authoritarianism, through just a vote? Like, what happened to return it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's - sure. It's a two-way project. I mean, I think it's also important maybe at this point to stress that the project of destroying your democracy as an elected leader is something that you don't ha"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-19", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist describes Trump's movements as a 'regime change' towards authoritarianism", "question_index": 25, "text": "So we're seeing in America right now a lot of people in civil service - and now I'm talking about ones who aren't being fired - they're having to decide whether they should stay in their jobs and carry out orders, thus sacrificing their own principles of ethics and good government, or resign. But then they risk having their position either not filled or filled by somebody who will be pressured to just conform to orders that are not good government kind of orders. Did that happen in Poland, where people had to make really tough decisions about what to do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So in Poland, we had exactly this kind of attempted illiberal takeover of the state, and it was partly successful. The destruction of the civil service happened. The politicization of a part of the ju"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-19", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist describes Trump's movements as a 'regime change' towards authoritarianism", "question_index": 26, "text": "You trace the modern civil service system back to Teddy Roosevelt, who reformed it. What was it like before?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It did happen in Poland. I think, actually, the change in the United States is more dramatic from a civil service that's loyal to the Constitution and to the country and to the rule of law into a civi"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-19", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist describes Trump's movements as a 'regime change' towards authoritarianism", "question_index": 27, "text": "You wrote that if the Trump administration succeeds in destroying the civil service system, the universities are next. What leads you to say that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So before Teddy Roosevelt, we had something called the spoils system, or patronage. And by the way, it's something that most countries have, I would guess, on the planet. And that meant that all civil"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-19", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist describes Trump's movements as a 'regime change' towards authoritarianism", "question_index": 28, "text": "Trump pardoned leaders of far-right groups that organized January 6 and were convicted of sedition, seditious conspiracy. One of those groups, the Proud Boys - here's what the Anti-Defamation League has to say about them. The group serves as a tent for misogynistic, anti-immigrant, Islamophobic and anti-LGBTQ+ ideologies and other forms of hate. The Southern Poverty Law Center has designated the Proud Boys as a hate group. So the leaders of that group were pardoned by Trump. Can you talk about the contrast between pardoning hate groups and being against diversity, equity and inclusion?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Some of the tactics that have already been used against the civil service, so these abrupt, very harsh cuts in federal funding, we've - that's already happened. So the National Institutes for Health, "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-19", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist describes Trump's movements as a 'regime change' towards authoritarianism", "question_index": 29, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is journalist Anne Applebaum, a staff writer for The Atlantic, where she's been writing about America's turn toward the right and Trump's move toward authoritarianism. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Trump administration is seeking to redefine what American basic values are - what we think is good and bad and, you know, whose voices are heard and whose voices are suppressed. And they have deci"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-19", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist describes Trump's movements as a 'regime change' towards authoritarianism", "question_index": 30, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with journalist Anne Applebaum, a staff writer for The Atlantic, where she's been writing about Trump's move toward authoritarianism. She was at the Munich Security Conference over the weekend. Her latest book is called \"Autocracy, Inc.: The Dictators Who Want To Run The World.\" You're a journalist, and you've been writing critically about Trump since 2016 or 2015. Trump is attacking the press. He's always attacked the press. I mean, in his first term, the press was the enemy of the people. But now it's escalating. What are some of your concerns about the attack on the press and where it might lead to for the press?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Trump administration is seeking to redefine what American basic values are - what we think is good and bad and, you know, whose voices are heard and whose voices are suppressed. And they have deci"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-19", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist describes Trump's movements as a 'regime change' towards authoritarianism", "question_index": 31, "text": "The White House blocked the AP, the Associated Press, from the Oval Office and from Air Force One because the wire service used Gulf of Mexico and not Gulf of America in its reporting. Renaming the Gulf of Mexico the Gulf of America seems like an odd and maybe not very important thing. But do you see that as part of, like, a loyalty test? Like, who's going to say it my way, the Gulf of America, and who's going to defy me and say Gulf of Mexico?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My concerns about the press aren't at the moment really personal. My real concern is about big media companies, television companies, whose owners have other interests. And this is one of the ways in "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-19", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist describes Trump's movements as a 'regime change' towards authoritarianism", "question_index": 32, "text": "Do you have any role models for continuing to report in a time that can be very chilling for journalists?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do think it's a kind of test, yes. And very often, these tests are trivial. The test is whether you can make a news organization change one of its policies. And if you can make it change that policy"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-19", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist describes Trump's movements as a 'regime change' towards authoritarianism", "question_index": 33, "text": "Anne Applebaum, thank you so much for coming back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, there's so many. You know, the world is so full of brave people, I mean, brave reporters, brave activists, people who try to tell the truth in Russia, people who have been active for women's right"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-02-19", "guest": "Anne Applebaum", "title": "Journalist describes Trump's movements as a 'regime change' towards authoritarianism", "question_index": 34, "text": "Anne Applebaum is a staff writer for The Atlantic. Her latest book is \"Autocracy, Inc: The Dictators Who Want To Run The World.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, Rich Benjamin, the grandson of a popular Haitian labor leader who became president of Haiti in 1957 but was overthrown by a military coup after 19 days. Benjamin will talk about getting classified documents showing the U.S. role in the coup, and we'll hear about Benjamin's experiences as a Black gay Haitian American who came out during the AIDS epidemic. I hope you'll join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram - @nprfreshair. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Briger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi, Anna Bauman and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. One night, when my guest Rich Benjamin's mother was staying over at his Brooklyn apartment, he awoke to her screaming, please don't kill me. Please don't kill me. She was having a nightmare. Here's the backstory. Her father, Rich Benjamin's grandfather, was appointed president of Haiti by a temporary government in 1957. But 19 days after taking office, he was overthrown by a military coup. Soldiers with submachine guns stormed into a cabinet meeting, took him away and gave him a letter of resignation to sign. His wife was also kidnapped by soldiers. They were both ejected and sent to the U.S. Soldiers also came for the president's children, including Benjamin's mother, who was 13 at the time. The children were taken to barracks, where his mother was raped. She never got over the terror of that day. Through her aunt's negotiations with the military government, she was able to get out of confinement and go to New York, where she was reunited with her parents. The family never really talked about the coup and the trauma. It wasn't until Benjamin went to Haiti to help after the 2010 earthquake that he decided to do some research to better understand his family and himself. As part of his research, he sued the U.S. State Department to get access to classified documents, which revealed the U.S. played a role in the coup. His new memoir is called \"Talk To Me: Lessons From A Family Forged By History.\" It's also about being Black, the son of immigrants and gay. He says he's enjoyed advantage and endured exclusion. Benjamin's first book, published in 2009, is called \"Searching For Whitopia: An Improbable Journey To The Heart Of White America.\" Rich Benjamin, welcome to FRESH AIR. What did you learn about the Eisenhower administration's role in overthrowing your grandfather's presidency?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 1, "text": "It's great to have you", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, first of all, it's great to be here."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 2, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, first of all, it's great to be here."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 3, "text": "So you said your grandfather was a labor leader, but he was more than just a labor leader. He was very popular, very charismatic, and was able to organize mass protests.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But what I - thank you. Thank you. What I learned in writing this book is that executives of American corporations, after my grandfather assumed Haiti's presidency, called the White House directly to "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 4, "text": "So what role did the Eisenhower administration play in the coup?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was. My grandfather became a major labor leader in 1946, and he was in charge of unions that represented factory workers that represented the farmhands who plowed the fields, who cut the sugarcane,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 5, "text": "The couple being your grandparents?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The role that the Eisenhower administration played was first, they were aware that the coup would happen. We know this through secret CIA cables. But also, they granted this couple without the couple'"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 6, "text": "After your grandfather was overthrown by the military coup, Duvalier was elected president, and he had what some people considered as a kind of reign of terror. He became a dictator. His police really cracked down on any kind of dissent. And he was president for how many years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. They granted them visas to enter the United States without the couple's request. And so they knew that it was going to happen. And so that's critical in their hatching the coup. In other words, t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yeah, he declared himself president for life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was very swift, his dictatorship. Once he kidnapped my grandfather, it was barely two weeks before he sent the military into the city's capital, and he mowed people down through submachine guns. He"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 8, "text": "So let's talk about your mother a little bit. So she was kidnapped by the soldiers and taken to barracks. She was raped there. How much did she talk to you about that? And that night when she woke up screaming, don't kill me, did you already know the story that she was raped?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He did."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 9, "text": "When did she tell you? How did you find out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I did not. I did not. And..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 10, "text": "So she told you eventually that when she told her father - the former president of Haiti - that she was raped by the soldiers, he didn't believe her. And that created an anger that never left her. And also although he may have been a man of the people, he wasn't a family man, and she felt betrayed by that, too. She was asked to lead your grandfather's funeral procession in Haiti. He had moved to Haiti just months before he died. And this was - what year was that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I found out subsequently through a different visit to Brooklyn when we talked about it. But the main thrust of this story and the main discovery of this story is just growing up I had no idea, period,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Yeah. So she was asked to lead his funeral procession, and she had really mixed feelings about it because she was still angry with him. And thinking, like, what a position to be in. Like, you're the daughter of a president who was beloved by workers who were challenging the elite, and he's still celebrated by people who were alive then. And you don't really want to do it, but you have to do it. Do you have any insight into how she felt when she was actually leading the funeral procession?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "1986."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Including his own because he beat her.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The insight I do have is, as human beings, we expect our parents to protect us. And in his case, he failed miserably. He failed miserably to protect her from the emotional harm. He failed to protect h"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 13, "text": "When you went to Haiti after the 2010 earthquake, you went to a high school that was named after your grandfather. And I should add here that there was a period after he was overthrown when you weren't allowed to print his name.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Including his own. And, Terry, I want to return to this other point you made of his being popular and beloved - but that's outside his house doors - and less popular and cruel inside his house door"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, we have to take a short break here, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Rich Benjamin. He's the author of the new book \"Talk To Me.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Duvalier made it a crime to speak that man's name, to print his name or to reproduce his image. And that's what happens in autocracies. They were fierce, fierce rivals. But, Terry, when I did ret"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Rich Benjamin. His maternal grandfather was a labor leader in Haiti, who was appointed president by a provisional government in 1957 but was overthrown by a military coup after 19 days in office. Benjamin's mother, who was 13 at the time, was forced by soldiers to go to barracks, where she was raped. She was later reunited with her parents in New York, where Benjamin was born and continues to live. His new memoir is called \"Talk To Me.\" Tell us what your mother taught you about education and how it should make you uncomfortable.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Duvalier made it a crime to speak that man's name, to print his name or to reproduce his image. And that's what happens in autocracies. They were fierce, fierce rivals. But, Terry, when I did ret"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 16, "text": "Why wasn't it safe for them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mother taught me that education is not meant to be safe, and she meant this in a double-braided sense. Education is not meant to make you feel safe. And once you are educated, you are meant to make"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 17, "text": "What do you mean by that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my goodness. My education was not safe for my grandfather because when he became a professor, he was a vocal critic against various regimes. He was such a vocal critic against one of the regimes -"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 18, "text": "You became an activist. You worked for the think tank Demos for a while - progressive think tank.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, by that, I mean you don't sleepwalk through the current moment. You don't sleepwalk through current affairs. You don't accept the narratives that your government is telling you about how things "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 19, "text": "I'm just curious. I don't want to get too caught up in this. But did you feel like you were being effective, that you were reaching a sliver of Fox's audience?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. I worked for a progressive think tank that was deeply devoted to democracy forum, that was deeply devoted so that more voters can vote. It was deeply devoted to improving voter access by all ki"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 20, "text": "Did you get a lot of hate mail?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did, I did. And the measurement of that, Terry, was the emails I would receive. Sometimes - and I shouldn't even say sometimes. Often, I would receive emails from Fox viewers who said, hey, I hadn't"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 21, "text": "What did your mother, growing up in America after the age of 13, tell you about race in America and about colorism? And I ask about colorism in part because your grandfather, one of his goals was to help lead an opposition to the mulatto elite. And mulatto was the word used in Haiti. So if you had whiteness in your background, you were more likely to be in the elite. So what did she teach you about race and colorism?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The hate mail. Where do I begin? And often, Terry, I would measure my success by the heat and the volume of the hate mail. So oftentimes, if I felt that I bested Bill O'Reilly in a debate in his prime"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Rich Benjamin, author of the new memoir \"Talk To Me.\" We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mother taught me some very profound and useful lessons about race, and that is that I was not to be defined by my skin color. And I was not to allow others to define me by my skin color. And she al"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Rich Benjamin. His maternal grandfather was a labor leader in Haiti, who was appointed president by a provisional government in 1957, but was overthrown by a military coup after 19 days in office. Benjamin's mother - who was 13 at the time - was kidnapped by soldiers, forced to go to barracks where she was raped. She was later reunited with her parents in New York, where Benjamin was born and continues to live. His new memoir is called \"Talk To Me: Lessons From A Family Forged By History.\" Your father was originally from Guinea in Africa, and while you were in high school, he got a job in Guinea, which he really wanted to take. He really wanted to return. And he was an economist. He took the job. Your mother went with him. And you write there were virtually, like, no schools or colleges in Guinea at the time. So you and your siblings stayed behind, and your grandmother moved in to take care of you. And you felt pretty abandoned, similar to how your mother felt abandoned by her father. Can you talk about that period and what it was like to know that your mother was in another country while you were still in the U.S.?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mother taught me some very profound and useful lessons about race, and that is that I was not to be defined by my skin color. And I was not to allow others to define me by my skin color. And she al"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Yeah, your mother ran UNICEF programs in several African countries.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. So during those high school years, she was off in Africa, as my father was. And, Terry, you think about the yearly rituals that any high school person has, the annual birthdays, the annual homeco"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 25, "text": "When you were a young man, you didn't want people to know that your mother was from Haiti. And there's a scene in your book early on where you're in a taxi with your then-boyfriend, and the cab driver detected a Caribbean accent and asked if you were from Haiti. And you said, no, I'm from New York. And he said, where are you originally from? And you said, New York. And he said, you have a Haitian accent. You have a Haitian face. But you didn't want to tell him you were Haitian. Why not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She ran UNICEF programs. It's - she ran. And it's a refrain I noticed because my grandfather said Haiti was his one greatest love, and my father said helping other people was also his greatest love. A"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 26, "text": "Yeah, the boat people were people trying to escape Haiti on, like, little makeshift boats who - heading toward the U.S.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My whole life, Haiti has been associated with dread. You know, we remember in the 1980s, the Haitian boat people. We remember the accusations that Haitians brought AIDS to United States."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 27, "text": "When did you change your mind about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. Exactly. But that was a thing when I was growing up. So it was, you know, Haitians with AIDS, Haitians who are boat people. And the other stigma was a kind of condescending pity for Haitians,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 28, "text": "So you went to Wesleyan University, and there you joined the fraternity Delta Kappa Epsilon, which is, I think, the same fraternity that George W. Bush had been in.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Returning from Haiti in 2010. When I could actually visit the place, when I could actually understand through my research, through the CIA files, through my grandfather's life, through my mother's lif"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 29, "text": "Yeah. So - and this was during a period - which we're probably still in - of, like, a lot of drinking. And were you out when you were in that fraternity?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, indeed."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 30, "text": "Yeah, because fraternities are so much about big frat parties with lots of beer and more beer and even more beer, and it's all about, like, meeting girls and hooking up with girls. So I'm trying to figure out what that experience was like for you being gay and being in a fraternity like that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I was not."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 31, "text": "So you were hiding being gay and maybe also hiding being Haitian American?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's ironic to think about. In looking back, I think I pledged that fraternity for the beer and the more beer. And there were some nice guys in the fraternity. But also there was this atmosphere of se"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 32, "text": "Were you still having to perform being somebody who you weren't?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, but fraternities are also you're not meant to discuss what happens inside the hollow halls of a fraternity. And so it was just another layer of confidentiality and secrets and privacy that really"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 33, "text": "What was the performance like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was, yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 34, "text": "And everybody's trying out new personalities, trying to figure out who they are...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in fairness to the fraternity, I think, looking back, a lot of people were performing. You know, you're a young guy, you're performing being a football player, you're performing being popular fo"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 35, "text": "...Away from their parents if they're going to out-of-town college.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 36, "text": "That's right. You wanted to get as far away as possible.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Especially. And that's why we're there."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 37, "text": "Yeah. So when you started going to gay bars, it was during the AIDS epidemic, which is such a difficult time to start your sexual life. You must have been afraid of getting AIDS. At the same time, you really wanted to have a sex life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 38, "text": "Well, we have to take a short break here, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Rich Benjamin. He's the author of the new book \"Talk To Me.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. For me, that was also a harrowing aspect of survival in that anytime I got a cough, anytime I got a scratchy throat, anytime I got a pimple, which I would think was a lesion, I would go into this"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 39, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Rich Benjamin. His maternal grandfather was a labor leader in Haiti, who was appointed president by a provisional government in 1957 but was overthrown by a military coup after 19 days in office. Benjamin's mother, who was 13 at the time, was forced by soldiers to go to barracks, where she was raped. She was later reunited with her parents in New York, where Benjamin was born and continues to live. His new memoir is called \"Talk To Me.\" When you started going to gay bars, you also started using a lot of cocaine. Did you have an end-of-the-world feeling because of the AIDS epidemic so party now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. For me, that was also a harrowing aspect of survival in that anytime I got a cough, anytime I got a scratchy throat, anytime I got a pimple, which I would think was a lesion, I would go into this"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 40, "text": "When - in that period when you were a young man and going to - using a lot of cocaine, you got arrested because you were very high. You saw a Mercedes and - go ahead. Tell the story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, indeed. You know, when I was young, there was this atmosphere of hedonism and death. There was a sense that I would not live past 40. And so I had this mentality - burn the candle hard at both en"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 41, "text": "Then the police came and took you to the Manhattan detention center known as the Tombs. What was the cell like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was one of these classic gay Manhattan nights on the town, and we'd been at a club called The Roxy that has three floors. And I was just in this kind of lucid, illusive luster. And I just saw a Mer"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 42, "text": "Did that experience change your life? Like, how long were you in jail, and did that experience change you in any way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I'll never forget this as long as I live. The cell was tiny, and there were four people crammed into the cell, and there was a latrine in the middle of the cell. And I'd never been to a cell like "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 43, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Rich Benjamin. He's the author of the new book \"Talk Benjamin. He's the author of the new book \"Talk To Me.\" I want to ask you about an earlier book you wrote in 2009. It was called \"Searching For Whitopia: An Improbable Journey Into The Heart Of White America.\" What did you consider whitopia, a white version of utopia? And what was your goal in writing the book? What did you really want to learn?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The funny thing is it felt like I was in jail for three days, but when I documented - because I went back and got the police record - in fact, I was only in jail for 36 hours. So it did change my life"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 44, "text": "You were threading back and forth if it was 27,000 miles", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I literally delineated the fastest-growing and whitest communities in this country. And once I did that, I packed my bags and embarked on a 27,000-mile journey that lasted two years to the whitest, fa"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 45, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I literally delineated the fastest-growing and whitest communities in this country. And once I did that, I packed my bags and embarked on a 27,000-mile journey that lasted two years to the whitest, fa"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 46, "text": "Did you get any answers to those questions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was. It was a lot of travel. I got a lot of frequent flyer miles. And I just embedded myself. It was a project of hanging out. It was a project of deep immersion. And I just wanted to learn what th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 47, "text": "What were they?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 48, "text": "Tell us more about what you found about immigration.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I learned about racial segregation that largely wasn't consciously racial. People were lured by these towns for better homes, more home for your dollar, beautiful natural resources - lakes, running tr"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 49, "text": "I know there were a lot of golf courses in the places that you visited. And you played golf with a whole lot of people who you interviewed. What about guns?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my goodness. For example, when I was in St. George, Utah, I sat in on a local group called the Citizens Council against Illegal Immigration. And every week, local people would convene to figure ou"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 50, "text": "So what did you learn in terms of thoughts about diversity? Because right now there's an emphasis of cutting diversity, equity and inclusion - DEI - throughout the federal government.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was a gun culture in whitopia. In Kootenai County, there were more gun dealers than gas stations when I was there. And so there's this idolatry of guns and the Second Amendment. And surely enoug"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 51, "text": "So what was it like for you as a Black man to be in the communities that you describe as whitopia?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "At the time on my journey through whitopia, I learned that people liked diversity only in cultural forms, in terms of what television shows they were watching, in terms of what food they could eat. Bu"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 52, "text": "Well, we have to take a short break here, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Rich Benjamin. He's the author of the new book \"Talk To Me.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was very dissonant because on one level, people were kind. I did go golfing. I did go bowling. I did go fishing with a lot of these residents, and they really did open their homes to me. And it jus"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 53, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Rich Benjamin. His maternal grandfather was a labor leader in Haiti, who was appointed president by a provisional government in 1957 but was overthrown by a military coup after 19 days in office. His new memoir is called \"Talk To Me.\" So getting back to Haiti for a minute, after your grandfather was removed from the presidency by the military. And it was a coup that the U.S. had a hand in - the Eisenhower administration. When you look at what happened to Haiti afterward, when you look at President Duvalier, who was a brutal dictator, and when you look at, like, the chaos now with gangs having taken over the capital, Port-au-Prince, do you wonder what Haiti might have been like if your grandfather had remained president?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was very dissonant because on one level, people were kind. I did go golfing. I did go bowling. I did go fishing with a lot of these residents, and they really did open their homes to me. And it jus"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 54, "text": "Well, Rich Benjamin, it's been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do. I do, because when he was ousted in 1957, that was a tender moment in the life cycle of that country. And I think those 40 years, let's say from 1957 on, were critical. And I think if those 40 y"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 55, "text": "Rich Benjamin's new memoir is called \"Talk To Me: Lessons From A Family Forged By History.\" If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, like this week's interviews with Anne Applebaum about the Trump administration's move toward authoritarianism or with epidemiologist Dr. Adam Ratner, author of the new book \"Booster Shots: The Urgent Lessons Of Measles And The Uncertain Future Of Children's Health,\" check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. And to find out what's happening behind the scenes of our show and get our producers' recommendations for what to watch, read and listen to, subscribe to our free newsletter at whyy.org/freshair.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure to talk to you also."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304151", "date": "2025-02-20", "guest": "Rich Benjamin", "title": "Rich Benjamin reflects on a family fractured by a military coup in 'Talk to Me'", "question_index": 56, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Briger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi, Anna Bauman and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having me. It's been a pleasure to talk to you also."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 0, "text": "It's not that", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Tom Ripley) Marge, I'm sorry, but you've got to understand. I don't love you. We're friends. That's all. Oh, come on. Don't cry. That's not going to work, Marge. Stop it - because you're interferi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 1, "text": ". Andrew Scott, welcome to FRESH AIR. You are so terrific. It's a pleasure to have you on the show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Tom Ripley) Marge, I'm sorry, but you've got to understand. I don't love you. We're friends. That's all. Oh, come on. Don't cry. That's not going to work, Marge. Stop it - because you're interferi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 2, "text": "What did you need to know about the mind of Tom Ripley to play him? I mean, is he desperate for money? Is he a sociopath? Do you have to think about what his motivation is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, pleasure to be here, Terry."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 3, "text": "You mean from the previous film adaptation or from the book?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did a little. I found all the words, like, sociopath and psychopath and monster, evil, villain, all those things sort of largely unhelpful. And really, I just kind of thought about the character in "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Your eyes are so interesting in this series 'cause sometimes they're, you know, a little comical or - but sometimes they are - and sometimes they're kind of threatening, and other times they're just blank like there's nothing going on...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, the film adaptations and the - to sort of think, OK, well, what do I read when I read these scripts? The scripts were really extraordinary. And, you know, it's an eight-hour adaptation of the no"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 5, "text": "...Like they're...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 6, "text": "...Dead and there's nothing going on behind them. And it strikes me that that must be hard to achieve since you're not dead inside", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 7, "text": ", you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 8, "text": "You have a conscience. Can you talk a little bit about going into that, like, dead-inside blank state?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 9, "text": "So you're playing Tom Ripley, somebody who's hiding his real identity and assuming the identity of others. So he's always hiding who he is. You must identify with that in a way as an actor 'cause you're always playing somebody else. But also, Patricia Highsmith, who wrote the novel that \"Ripley\" is adapted from, she was a lesbian and had to hide that because when she was writing, like, you couldn't be out. There's no way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it's not necessarily that you would be playing nothing. And I think what's interesting about Tom Ripley is that we - we're watching this very brilliant person think. And I think that's a great plea"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 10, "text": "And you grew up in Dublin, and I think you were alive when homosexuality was against the law. So, like, she knew stuff about hiding. You knew stuff about hiding, you know, your identity. Or you knew people who probably had to hide their identity. So do you feel that sense of hiddenness in the portrayal?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Yeah, definitely. It seems like he's definitely secretive to himself.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I do. I absolutely do. She's definitely talking about murky times in society, and a lot of the stuff is coded. And there's certainly stuff that she can't speak explicitly about. And I think she "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 12, "text": "The film is shot in black-and-white, and it's really exquisite. Like, every shot could be a beautiful still photograph if you just, you know, stopped it and look at the frame. And I'm wondering what it was like to shoot that way 'cause just setting up the lighting and the composition, it's so carefully and artfully done. So did that mean a lot of time waiting for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, there are so many of us - and I think this is the reason of why the character is so enduring - that are strangers to ourselves, you know, that we do things that aren't necessarily murderous, but"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 13, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It absolutely did."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 14, "text": "And did you have to be aware of exactly how the lighting was so the shadows would be - would fall exactly right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. It did. Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 15, "text": "So you may be tired of talking about your role in \"Fleabag\" as a priest.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Andrew Scott speaking to Terry Gross last year. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2024 interview with Andrew Scott. He's nominated for a Screen Actors"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 16, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not at all."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 17, "text": "As a priest torn between your commitment to the priesthood and your love for the main character, the woman nicknamed Fleabag, torn between your commitment to celibacy and your own sexual desire. And, you know, it stars Phoebe Waller-Bridge, who also created and wrote it. And she plays a single woman who really loves sex and has had a lot of partners but isn't really in love until she meets you. And you're a priest who performs the ceremony for Fleabag's father's second marriage. She falls in love with you. You're drawn to her, but you're a priest. You become good friends, and she started to hope that you'll leave the priesthood and be with her. And I want to play a scene in which she's visiting you at the parish in the evening. And the scene starts inside and then moves outside, so we just did a bit of editing to edit together those two parts of the scene. So let's hear that. Phoebe Waller-Bridge as Fleabag speaks first.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not at all."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 18, "text": "That's Phoebe Waller-Bridge and my guest, Andrew Scott. That's such a great role and such a great performance. Did you ever know a young priest as attractive as you were?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Priest) I've never felt closer to God."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 19, "text": "Well, wait. Let's not avoid...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's very kind and also impossible to answer. Yeah. No, I completely adore Phoebe and..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 20, "text": "...The question here. We'll...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm very..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 21, "text": "...Take out the comparison to you so you don't have to worry about being humble here. But did you ever know a young, very attractive priest?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Right", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no. The priests that I knew were not young or attractive."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 23, "text": ". OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no. The priests that I knew were not young or attractive."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 24, "text": "You were raised Catholic in Dublin. What was the role of the church in your life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Sexual abuse.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it was a huge role in my life growing up. The culture is based on the Catholic Church. Ireland is a small country. I was at a Jesuit school. I'm not a practicing Catholic anymore, but ce"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 26, "text": "Were you really angry with the church for having so many hypocrites in positions of religious power? You know, you talk about the priests who were accused of sexual abuse and, you know, infidelity and, you know, entering other people's marriages. And, you know, you're gay. I don't know how old you were when you realized that, maybe all your life. But like I said, in the Republic of Ireland, being gay was against the law until, I think, 1993. I think that's when it was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sexual abuse. And not just sexual abuse but infidelity within marriages and - or marriages where people would be, you know, having affairs with priests and, you know, but mainly sexual abuse."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 27, "text": "...Repealed. And the church condemned it. And yet you have these priests, you know, abusing boys and having affairs with women and men, probably. So how did you fit all these complicated feelings into your character of the priest in \"Fleabag\"? And it's a comedic role, too...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, 1993. Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 28, "text": "...As we could hear from the scene that we played. And he's wrestling with the natural sexual desire that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 29, "text": "...That people have.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 30, "text": "And love.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And love. I think he falls in love."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 31, "text": "Yeah. Physical expressions of love, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 32, "text": "And I love the fact that he questions his faith...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So it's not the abstinence that I have the problem with. It's the silence around the abstinence and the way that people in positions of power silence people who want to be able to talk about tha"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 33, "text": "...But constantly stays with it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 34, "text": "And that it's OK to question it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, exactly."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Like, if your belief is deep enough, it's OK to challenge it and question it...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 36, "text": "...And remain committed, so yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 37, "text": "Did any priests give you feedback on your role in \"Fleabag\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, exactly. Remain committed, exactly. To see that struggle, like in any relationship - in a marriage, you think, am I - this is tough. This relationship is hard. How do I keep it going? How do I ta"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 38, "text": "I want to ask you about your recent film \"All Of Us Strangers,\" in which you play a screenwriter in London living in a new high-rise building, and there's only one other unit that seems to have anyone living in it. So it's this shiny and eerily empty new building. The other resident, played by Paul Mescal, turns out to be gay, like your character, and you develop an intimate relationship. At the same time, you return to the town where you were raised, and the people who you meet there are your parents. But we, the audience, don't know that immediately 'cause they're the same age you are. Once we realize, wait; that's his parents, like, I was thinking, like, this is terrible casting. The parents are the same age as the son. What went wrong here? But then you realize the parents were in a car accident when your character was 11 years old. And you've gone back, either in your mind or physically, to talking with them and trying to bridge the gap of the man you've become, the screenwriter, the man who is gay, with the child who they knew and all the things you couldn't tell them and couldn't talk about then and are just, like, dying to tell them now - you know, having the conversations you always wish you'd had had they been alive. Are your parents still alive?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University. Let's get back to Terry's interview with Andrew Scott, who stars in the Netflix series \"Ripley,\" an adaptat"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 39, "text": "Oh, no. I'm so sorry.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mother died three weeks ago."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 40, "text": "Are you OK?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 41, "text": "Oh, I'm so sorry. I was going to ask you - and I'm not sure if this is anything you'd care to talk about, knowing now what I know - if you, as you were playing that, wanted to have conversations with your parents that you never had. And now I'm hoping that you had the conversations.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm OK now. As we're speaking, yeah, I'm OK."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 42, "text": "Is your father still alive?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I feel very lucky that I feel that there was nothing that I needed to say to my mum, or I feel there was nothing that she needed to say to me that was left unsaid. So I feel very grateful for that."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 43, "text": "And is he OK?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 44, "text": "All right. One of the things about playing this role, it's one of the films in which you show your ability to be silent and still convey a lot. There's, I think, about - I timed it - there's about 14 minutes where the camera is, you know, mostly on you and on your face, or you're walking, and not - you don't say a word for, like, 14 minutes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My father's OK."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 45, "text": "That's a really good point, yeah", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wow. Is it really? I think that's really fascinating for audiences to watch. I think audiences love to watch characters think and feel. And, you know, so much of what we say is less important than wha"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 46, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wow. Is it really? I think that's really fascinating for audiences to watch. I think audiences love to watch characters think and feel. And, you know, so much of what we say is less important than wha"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 47, "text": "One of my favorite lines in the movie is actually said by Paul Mescal, who says, I was a fat kid, and when you're fat, people don't ask why...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's sort of - that's what happens a lot. It's like - it's just the way we are."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 48, "text": "...You don't have a girlfriend. And I thought, like, oh, that gets you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 49, "text": "I think you first became known in the U.S. in \"Sherlock,\" the BBC series that played in the U.S. as well, with Benedict Cumberbatch as Sherlock Holmes and you as his nemesis, Moriarty. So I want to play a scene from Season 1, and this is the first scene where Sherlock Holmes and Moriarty meet face-to-face. And Moriarty has lured Sherlock to rescue his friend Watson, who's been outfitted with an explosive vest. So Sherlock is pointing a gun at you during this entire exchange, and your character, Moriarty, speaks first.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Andrew Scott speaking to Terry Gross last year. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2024 interview with Andrew Scott. He's nominated for a Screen Actors"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 50, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Jim Moriarty) No, you won't."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 51, "text": "You play Moriarty big and smirky, sinister and funny. What was your audition like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Jim Moriarty) No, you won't."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 52, "text": "Were you able to tap into a place in yourself that you thought could scare people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My audition was incredibly fun. Just the day before, I knew that they were auditioning people to play Moriarty. And their original idea was that this character would appear almost like a - just an ima"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 53, "text": "Yeah, yeah. I want to move on to \"Hamlet.\" You got an Olivier Award, I think - right? - for your portrayal. No?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 54, "text": "You might have. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I might have. Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 55, "text": "How am I supposed to know if you don't know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 56, "text": "Well, anyways, you were acclaimed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, I don't know. How am I supposed to know if you don't know?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 57, "text": "OK, you were acclaimed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 58, "text": "Yeah. So you've spoken about how you wanted to make the language understandable 'cause so often, especially...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "People liked it. People liked it, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 59, "text": "...For Americans, who sometimes have to work hard just to grasp a British accent when spoken quickly or spoken with a regional British accent - and, of course, so much of the language is - so much of the language in Shakespeare is language that we no longer use. It's archaic. But you really wanted to make every word understandable. So I went on YouTube to see if I could find anything, and I found you doing part of the to be, or not to be soliloquy, which is, of course, the most famous part. And it was so interesting because, you know, Hamlet is really, like, thinking through, like, should I live, or should I end my life? I don't know. And what's the worst that can happen if I die? What would that be like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 60, "text": "And, of course, he's using very elevated poetic language to say all of that, but you say it, like, really slowly. There are so many, like, long pauses in between, for instance, to be - long pause - or not to be. And on the one hand, I felt like, wow, that's a lot of pauses, and on the other hand, I felt like, well, every word is ringing out, and I'm kind of hearing things I hadn't heard before. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 61, "text": "...Can you describe your thoughts about those pauses and why you took them and where you took them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 62, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I suppose the thing about the pauses is that he's thinking, am I going to live, or am I going to die? And we're seeing that live. And, you know, your job is to not play the famous speech. Your job is "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 63, "text": "Andrew Scott, I want to thank you so much for talking with us. And, you know, I - your face changes from role to role. Can you pass unrecognized on the street?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Where you're like, are we just doing this just because everybody knows this is what you would do? Like, Hamlet's father appears to him as a ghost at the beginning of the story. And we don't know - "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 64, "text": "Right, sometimes. Yeah, do you use...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "sometimes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 65, "text": "...Any kind of disguise or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Depends on the day."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 66, "text": "Yeah. We'll see how long that lasts.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It depends. I'm very lucky. I can walk the streets pretty easily, you know?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 67, "text": "All right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It depends. I'm very lucky. I can walk the streets pretty easily, you know?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 68, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "People have been saying that for a while, so..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5304269", "date": "2025-02-21", "guest": "Andrew Scott", "title": "Don't call him a sociopath: Here's how Andrew Scott humanizes 'Ripley'", "question_index": 69, "text": "Well, congratulations on \"Ripley,\" and thank you so much for being with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Hopefully, I'll be able to duck and dive into the future."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5311906", "date": "2025-02-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Oscar-winning actor Gene Hackman", "question_index": 0, "text": "When you were preparing for your role as a, you know, narcotics cop for \"French Connection,\" how did you see this role as comparing to other cops that you'd seen portrayed in movies?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Jimmy \"Popeye\" Doyle) Do you - get over there, get your hands on your head."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5311906", "date": "2025-02-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Oscar-winning actor Gene Hackman", "question_index": 1, "text": "Would you be able to tell us how you answered them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I try not to look at that kind of thing as an actor. I try to only look at characters and the script in a way that is always fresh for me. I ask myself a few very basic questions about how is this per"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5311906", "date": "2025-02-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Oscar-winning actor Gene Hackman", "question_index": 2, "text": "So when you ask yourself, what do I have to do to become that person in a role, what answers did you give yourself? What did you have to do to become that person?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there's some very obvious things where I ask myself, for instance, in \"The French Connection\" I would say to myself, am I a policeman? No, of course not. What does it take to be a policeman? If "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5311906", "date": "2025-02-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Oscar-winning actor Gene Hackman", "question_index": 3, "text": "You know, you were talking before about how when you do a character, you have to ask yourself what's similar about me and this character? What's different about me and this character? What would I have to do to fill in the gap between what he would do and what I would do? In at least two recent movies, you played characters with a real sadistic streak - the sheriff in \"Unforgiven\" and the sheriff in \"The Quick And The Dead.\" And these were characters who definitely had a strong sadistic streak. What do you do to get in the spirit of a character like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, some of it was pure acting. And some of it, as I said before, that sometimes I would say to myself, I couldn't do this, I couldn't say that line to that character in reality. So then I have to a"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5311906", "date": "2025-02-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Oscar-winning actor Gene Hackman", "question_index": 4, "text": "Well, on screen, you know, that the great sadists always have a lot of charisma", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I find in me a sadistic streak. I find something in me that may be not very attractive, but that I feel would be valuable in this context. I think if we - if you search hard enough, you can find a lot"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5311906", "date": "2025-02-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Oscar-winning actor Gene Hackman", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I find in me a sadistic streak. I find something in me that may be not very attractive, but that I feel would be valuable in this context. I think if we - if you search hard enough, you can find a lot"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5311906", "date": "2025-02-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Oscar-winning actor Gene Hackman", "question_index": 6, "text": "So it must be fun to play roles like that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's true."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5311906", "date": "2025-02-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Oscar-winning actor Gene Hackman", "question_index": 7, "text": "Do you get offers for kindly old gentlemen kind of roles?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is. It's always more fun to play heavy than it is to play a good guy. My kids are always asking me to play these things - grandfathers and kindly old gentlemen. And I just tell them that, you know,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5311906", "date": "2025-02-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Oscar-winning actor Gene Hackman", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have, yes. I have - grandfathers and things like that that are all knowing, and..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5311906", "date": "2025-02-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Oscar-winning actor Gene Hackman", "question_index": 9, "text": "You've actually dropped out of acting a couple of times, didn't you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Wise and all that. And it - they just don't interest me."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5311906", "date": "2025-02-27", "guest": "Tonya Mosley", "title": "'Fresh Air' remembers Oscar-winning actor Gene Hackman", "question_index": 10, "text": "Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mm-hmm."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5311917", "date": "2025-02-28", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "Sebastian Stan and Jeremy Strong reflect on Trump, power and 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Jeremy Strong, welcome to FRESH AIR. I love the film, and that scene has so much energy to it. You have such swagger in it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Roy Cohn) Of course, it helps if Nixon and the attorney general are your pals."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5311917", "date": "2025-02-28", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "Sebastian Stan and Jeremy Strong reflect on Trump, power and 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Oh, it is totally my pleasure. You know, a biopic is different from a film based on an original story. So you had a character who is a known person who you had to portray. What did you do to know, to watch, to listen to him before playing him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. I'm honored to be talking to you. Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5311917", "date": "2025-02-28", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "Sebastian Stan and Jeremy Strong reflect on Trump, power and 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 2, "text": "But did you ever fact-check any of it? Like, did you feel a responsibility to not only be - have acting truth but have, you know, like, fact truth?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, you know, I'll just say I haven't watched the film in a while, and hearing that scene back - it's really so charged, isn't it? And Roy in that scene encapsulates the playbook which the film exam"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5311917", "date": "2025-02-28", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "Sebastian Stan and Jeremy Strong reflect on Trump, power and 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 3, "text": "And I should mention here that the film was written by Gabriel Sherman, who is a journalist who wrote a book about, you know, Murdoch and Fox News.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Yes, I absolutely feel a sort of fidelity to truth with a capital T, which is funny in this case because Roy Cohn - if he's anything, to me, he's, like, the progenitor of alternative facts"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5311917", "date": "2025-02-28", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "Sebastian Stan and Jeremy Strong reflect on Trump, power and 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Yeah. I should have said Ailes, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, a book about Roger Ailes and..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5311917", "date": "2025-02-28", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "Sebastian Stan and Jeremy Strong reflect on Trump, power and 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no, I mean, it's also about Murdoch. But, of course..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5311917", "date": "2025-02-28", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "Sebastian Stan and Jeremy Strong reflect on Trump, power and 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 6, "text": "Right. Well, that's the thing. Like, I feel like your recent career is so connected to Trump because \"Succession\"...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I read that book when I was working on \"Succession\" because, you know, during that time..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5311917", "date": "2025-02-28", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "Sebastian Stan and Jeremy Strong reflect on Trump, power and 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yeah. What I want to know is, do you feel very adjacent to Trump - like, that you know Trump? Because your characters have been so, you know, related to Trump in one way or another and very directly related in \"The Apprentice.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's sectionality there, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5311917", "date": "2025-02-28", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "Sebastian Stan and Jeremy Strong reflect on Trump, power and 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Oh, yeah, yeah. I know who he is, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't. If I'm honest, I feel that my job is to almost be a sort of vessel, which involves kind of clearing myself out. I went on a silent meditation retreat last week, Terry. And the teacher, who's "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5311917", "date": "2025-02-28", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "Sebastian Stan and Jeremy Strong reflect on Trump, power and 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Jon talked about a term called anatta, which means no-self or not-self. And it really resonated with me because I find that that is the place where I tend to be when I'm working, I think, creatively. "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5311917", "date": "2025-02-28", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "Sebastian Stan and Jeremy Strong reflect on Trump, power and 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 10, "text": "I'm going to stop you there because I was going to ask you if you notate your scripts as if they were music. Because, like in the scene that we just heard, there's real music in your voice. You've got a rhythm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...To play whatever piece of music that I'm given."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5311917", "date": "2025-02-28", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "Sebastian Stan and Jeremy Strong reflect on Trump, power and 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Well, why don't we listen to the real Roy Cohn's voice? This is from an interview with Tom Snyder...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. You know, I used to. When I was in college, I sort of have held on to old scripts and plays. And when I did, you know, \"American Buffalo\" or something, \"Look Back In Anger\" in college, I ha"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5311917", "date": "2025-02-28", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "Sebastian Stan and Jeremy Strong reflect on Trump, power and 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 12, "text": "...On his late-night show, \"Tomorrow,\" as...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5311917", "date": "2025-02-28", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "Sebastian Stan and Jeremy Strong reflect on Trump, power and 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 13, "text": "...Really? - as broadcast in 1977. So here we go.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I probably watched this a thousand times."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5311917", "date": "2025-02-28", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "Sebastian Stan and Jeremy Strong reflect on Trump, power and 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 14, "text": "So what was it like playing somebody who you find, like - is despicable", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Scare value. Going back over a period of years, when I call somebody or write a letter or something like that, this is supposed to make them tremble and think unless they act promptly and reasonably, "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5311917", "date": "2025-02-28", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "Sebastian Stan and Jeremy Strong reflect on Trump, power and 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 15, "text": "too strong a word?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Scare value. Going back over a period of years, when I call somebody or write a letter or something like that, this is supposed to make them tremble and think unless they act promptly and reasonably, "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5311917", "date": "2025-02-28", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "Sebastian Stan and Jeremy Strong reflect on Trump, power and 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 16, "text": "...And just be him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I don't think it's too strong a word. But, you know, you have to really check that at the door as an actor when you approach a role."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5311917", "date": "2025-02-28", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "Sebastian Stan and Jeremy Strong reflect on Trump, power and 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Sebastian Stan, welcome to FRESH AIR. It's a pleasure to have you on the show. I think you're great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Donald Trump) You're about to be sued, Mr. Mayor."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5311917", "date": "2025-02-28", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "Sebastian Stan and Jeremy Strong reflect on Trump, power and 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 18, "text": "So after choosing that clip - first of all, I should say, some listeners were probably thinking, he doesn't sound like Trump. What would you say to that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. Thank you for having me."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5311917", "date": "2025-02-28", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "Sebastian Stan and Jeremy Strong reflect on Trump, power and 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 19, "text": "After choosing that clip, I read that you improvised some of that scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", whether he's aware of that or not - because the voice, along with mannerisms and other physical characteristics that he has that we've become so accustomed to and we've been so oversaturated with, r"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5311917", "date": "2025-02-28", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "Sebastian Stan and Jeremy Strong reflect on Trump, power and 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 20, "text": "You made the film while Biden was president in between Trump's two terms. What's it like watching his second term after having played him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". The scene in the script, as it was written - it started out with, you know, it just said, Donald finishes introducing Trump Tower, and he sits down, and he goes, well, what do you think, Mr. Mayor? "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5311917", "date": "2025-02-28", "guest": "Jeremy Strong", "title": "Sebastian Stan and Jeremy Strong reflect on Trump, power and 'The Apprentice'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Playing him, I'm sure you had to be him and see things from his point of view, which requires you, the actor, to have empathy for Trump, the character that you're portraying.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's a really great question, and it's a - it's one where there's no real clear answer that I can give you. It's a mixed bag. It's a mixed bag. I mean, in a lot of ways, a lot of things look v"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 0, "text": "So when you were on stage, you know, with the reunited and the new version of The Dolls and you were doing the old Dolls songs, did you have any, like, flashbacks to things that you had totally forgotten about? Like, did memories, like, surface of things that were really interesting, that you had completely forgotten about until you were back in that setting again?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I say I'm in love, you best believe I'm in love, L-U-V. (Singing) I always saw you just before the dawn. All the other kids were just dragging along. I couldn't believe the way you seemed to be. "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 1, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I remember the first time we made a record with Todd Rundgren, and the only thing I remember is the lights on the control board. I thought they were really pretty."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 2, "text": "Any historian would want to know all about that", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that's really the only memory I have of making..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that's really the only memory I have of making..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 4, "text": "Oh, you had to relearn your own songs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Of making that first record. That's - you know, people think I'm kidding when they ask, well, what was it like making that first record? Because, you know, it kind of became this benchmark kind of "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 5, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it really holds up. You know, it's kind of like a declaration that, I think, is timeless. So there's a lot of stuff like that in the songs which - let me explain something to you. There was a "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 6, "text": "In spite of the fact that you don't remember a whole lot about parts of the early days of the Dolls, do you remember writing a song, \"Personality Crisis\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Nobody has an original idea."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 7, "text": "And let's just describe what Charles Ludlam's Theatre was. He used to dress in drag a lot as the leading lady in these, like, Greta Garbo kind of roles. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I don't remember exactly sitting down and writing the words, but I remember where I got the name because I was kind of like an acolyte in Charles Ludlam's Ridiculous Theatre when I was"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 8, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, but it was so much more than that."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was really very intelligent stuff that he used to do. And he used to combine a lot of genres of, you know, classical playwriting in, you know, like Moliere, he would put in with something kitschy t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, why don't we hear \"Personality Crisis\" as performed by the New York Dolls at the Meltdown festival over the summer? So this is from \"The Return of The New York Dolls.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Oh, that's really good, and I wrote it down, you know, \"Personality Crisis.\" And that's really all I remember about writing the song, and the song came from that."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 11, "text": "In the liner notes for the DVD and the CD. You write about Arthur Kane. This was his last performance. He was the bass player of the band. And it was Arthur Kane who knocked on your door and recruited you to be in the Dolls when the band was being formed. He died just a few weeks after the concert. Did you even know he was sick?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's the New York Dolls. We're listening to Terry's 2004 interview with David Johansen, who co-founded the band in the 1970s. He died last week. We'll hear more after a break. This is FRESH AIR. Thi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "it was just one step to the left of probably the most radical people I had ever met at that point. And I don't even mean, you know, politics. I just mean the way he saw things. And they were always sp"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well let's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Anyway, he went through all this stuff - I mean, I can't begin to tell you - in his life. He fell out a window, he did this, he got hit by a car. He did this. He did that. And then he came out the oth"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 14, "text": "Let's talk about how he did recruit you for the band. He knocked on your door, your apartment in Manhattan. You were, what, around 19 or something?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Imitating Arthur Kane) He had this very high voice. And he was 6'5 or something."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 15, "text": "What did he tell you about this new band?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 16, "text": "What were some of the things that you knew you didn't want to be about, the kind of music that you thought had dead-ended?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there was a guy who lived in my building who I used to kind of, you know, jam with and strum guitars. And he was this Colombian guy who played bongos, and we used to just sit around and play mus"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, you know, at that time, there was, like, these interminable drum solos. And you know what happens when the drum solo stops. It's the worst. Then the bass takes a solo."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And stuff like that, you know? And we just wanted to kind of have some really wham bam songs. And, I mean, for me, the whole thing was like, if you have to compare it to something, like a Little Richa"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 19, "text": "Now, on the album cover of the album \"The New York Dolls,\" you're all dressed in this kind of trashy drag with a lot of eye makeup and lipstick. You're wearing a bouffant wig. I assume it's a wig", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And we just wanted to make an explosion, you know, of excitement. So that's what was missing. You know, rock 'n' roll had become very kind of pedantic and meandering, and it was looking for something,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 20, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And we just wanted to make an explosion, you know, of excitement. So that's what was missing. You know, rock 'n' roll had become very kind of pedantic and meandering, and it was looking for something,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 21, "text": "It wasn't a wig?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it wasn't a wig."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 22, "text": "You teased your hair for it? Because it's very bouffant.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 23, "text": "Somebody teased it, right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, somebody teased it. I didn't tease it."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 24, "text": "And you're wearing what looks like capri pants and high-heeled clogs, an open cardigan revealing your bare chest. And you're staring at yourself in the mirror of a makeup compact.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 25, "text": "And the band's name is written in lipstick.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 26, "text": "For those of us who didn't get to see you onstage, how did that compare with how you actually looked onstage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that was probably, you know, I mean - I think, you know, to the average civilian, it probably didn't look any different. But to us, we were, like, dressing up a little bit more, make it a little"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 28, "text": "What inspired your interest in or willingness to be in a kind of drag for performances? I mean, you mentioned you had been with Charles Ludlam's Ridiculous theater. And drag was often a part of their performances in theater. So where did you see it fitting into your music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For the record cover, you know? You know, Sylvain was in the rag trade with Billy. They had this little sweater company called - well, they sold it to this company called Truth and Soul. They used to "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 29, "text": "Did a lot of people early on assume that you were gay because of the way you dressed in performance or because of the?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, we were - you know, the hotbed of revolution at that time was, you know, St. Mark's Place and Second Avenue. And through that, you know, there were so many artists there and, you know,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 30, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. I don't know. I mean, it was obvious we weren't gay. I mean, you know..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 31, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "? Like, you could say, like - you could be talking to somebody and go, oh, that Hitler. And they go, gay, you know? So, I mean..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 32, "text": "The band was so - originally so used to performing at - like, in Manhattan, in the Village, where people, like, knew the band. The people who came were part of the same, like, arts subculture that the band...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies. Let's get back to Terry's interview with David Johansen. In 1971, he cofounded the glam rock band the New York Dolls. The band never sold many records, but it's bec"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 33, "text": "...Was a part of. But when you went on the road in America, did you start playing in places where people weren't kindred spirits in the same way, and they didn't necessarily get what you were doing and didn't know how to react to it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 34, "text": "What for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes and no. I mean, it's very interesting. Like, you know, there were, like, Rust Belt places, you know, like Detroit and Cleveland and places like that. People would go crazy for us, and they would c"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 35, "text": "How did people respond to you in prison?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Went to the hoosegow in Memphis, which is - I was dressed like Liza Minnelli at the time, so it wasn't the most relaxing night I ever had."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 36, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In jail?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 37, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just, like, hid under these, like, Lysol-smelling..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 38, "text": "What were the charges?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Like, army blankets. And then this guy woke up, and he went like, oh, damn, you're David Johansen. And I was like, quiet, quiet, quiet. And then he woke up this bear, and the bear was growling, and"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 39, "text": "Right. I understand", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Inciting a riot. The cops - you know, the cops wanted to mess the thing up, and they started beating on kids and - 'cause they got up and danced. And I stopped the music, and I started explaining to t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 40, "text": ". Why did the New York Dolls break up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Inciting a riot. The cops - you know, the cops wanted to mess the thing up, and they started beating on kids and - 'cause they got up and danced. And I stopped the music, and I started explaining to t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 41, "text": "What did you think when you saw the Sex Pistols, the Ramones? Your band, the Dolls, preceded punk, but it was certainly influential on a lot of punk bands and had the same sensibility in a lot of ways. So when you saw that sensibility just really become so popular, what did you think?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Inertia. I don't know. You know, I think we got to a point where - I like to think, you know, it was a project that we finished, but there was, like, factions in the group that were, you know, more in"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 42, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think - I never saw the Sex Pistols, but I saw the Ramones because they used to rehearse down the hall from me. I forget what band - if I was in the Dolls or in the - my next band. But I remember Jo"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 43, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I told the Talking Heads they should give up."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 44, "text": "I want to skip ahead to the '80s and '90s when you performed a lot as Buster Poindexter. And, you know, the New York Dolls were so into a kind of prepunk sensibility and were very high energy and very raw. And, you know, Buster Poindexter is much more of a kind of lounge, more Vegas-oriented kind of persona. You know, instead of in drag on the cover, you know, the Buster Poindexter character is in a tuxedo and...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "David Johansen, who cofounded the 1970s band the New York Dolls, speaking with Terry Gross in 2004. He died last week. He was the last surviving member of the band. We'll hear more after a break. This"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 45, "text": "Well, that's the thing. No, no, but that's exactly the thing. I...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's all drag, Terry."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 46, "text": "Exactly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I mean, Birkenstocks are drag."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 47, "text": "Yeah, exactly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know what I'm saying?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 48, "text": "So have you always felt like you were standing back and knowing that any kind of drag that you were putting on, any kind of outfit or whatever you were putting on for a performance was always that - that you always knew it was some kind of drag or another?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Everyone is - like, everybody is saying something with their clothes, you know? So..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 49, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, you know, the thing with Poindexter is we - there was a little club, like a saloon, an Irish bar around the corner from my house. I was living in Gramercy Park. It was two blocks from my h"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 50, "text": "Right, right, right. Well, that image was encouraged. Like, on the cover of the Buster Poindexter album, you're drinking a martini...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I went in to do that, and I just picked whatever songs. I had been listening to a lot of jump blues at the time, but I also did, you know, like, \"The Seven Deadly Virtues\" from \"Camelot,\" and, you "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 51, "text": "...In a tuxedo with your pinkie ring", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 52, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 53, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then I was back on..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 54, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "See, I was walking to work. I was making a nice living, and then we had a hit, and, you know, all went to hell because we had to go back on the road."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 55, "text": "I want to play something from the Buster Poindexter era and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "See, I was walking to work. I was making a nice living, and then we had a hit, and, you know, all went to hell because we had to go back on the road."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 56, "text": "No, no, I wasn't going to. I was going to play...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Don't play \"Hot Hot Hot.\""}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 57, "text": "You're really tired of it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank God."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 58, "text": "Oh. I was going to play \"Bad Boy.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's the bane of my life."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 59, "text": "Tell me why you recorded this. This is a cover.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 60, "text": "Yeah. OK, well, let's hear it. This is from the \"Buster Poindexter\" album.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't know. It's just a good song. It was written by Lil Armstrong, and I always liked it ever since I was a kid."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 61, "text": "That's \"Bad Boy\" from David Johansen's album \"Buster Poindexter.\" David Johansen is my guest, and his first band, the New York Dolls, has a reunion concert that was just released on CD and DVD. It seems to me that you've had so many different characters you've inhabited as a performer. And I'm wondering how much you think your career as an actor has come into play in your career as a musician, you know, because before you were even in the New York Dolls, you were with the Ridiculous Theater Company in New York. And over the years, you've been in, you know, a lot of movies as well.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Bad boy, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, all dressed up in fancy clothes. I've taken the trouble to change my night into day. You know that old hot, blazing sun? He ain't going t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 62, "text": "Yeah. You once said, back in the Buster Poindexter era, Buster can have this great life in the public eye and take the rap for everything, and then David can go home.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I guess, you know, there's a lot of kind of acting involved. I - you know, I have this friend - Elliott Murphy, who's a singer. He lives in Paris now. And I remember when I started doing Buster "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 63, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. You know, it's funny because my mother - when Buster came out, she said, you know, this is the most genius idea you've ever come up with."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 64, "text": "Now, you have a show on Sirius, which is one of the satellite radio stations.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is great. And I think that was her idea that, you know, Buster can take the rap. And politicians should do it."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 65, "text": "Who are you as a DJ? Are you just yourself, or do you have a...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 66, "text": "Uh-huh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have a show called the \"Mansion Of Fun.\""}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 67, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I'm kind of like Sri Rama Poindexter Johansen."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5320033", "date": "2025-03-07", "guest": "Personality Crisis", "title": "Remembering David Johansen, the New York Dolls co-founder who paved the way for punk", "question_index": 68, "text": "Well, David Johansen, great to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I'm very taken with Sri Ramakrishna lately because I read a biography of his and thought, man, that guy knew how to live. And he called the planet the mansion of fun, so I named my show after that"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325736", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Athol Fugard", "title": "Remembering South African playwright Athol Fugard", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. As a playwright, actor and director, Athol Fugard defied South Africa's apartheid system, and the government punished him for it. He died Saturday at the age of 92. We're going to listen back to the interview we recorded in 1986, eight years before the end of apartheid. Fugard was a white South African who wrote about the emotional and psychological consequences of his country's white supremacist system. When Fugard co-starred in his 1961 play \"The Blood Knot\" with Black actor Zakes Mokae, they became the first Black and white actors in South African history to share a stage. Soon after, Fugard was approached by a group of Black actors seeking his help to start a company. Together, they formed the Serpent Players. The company was frequently harassed by the authorities. A few members were imprisoned. Fugard's reputation for defiance spread. And in 1967, the government revoked his passport. It was restored four years later. Fugard wrote more than 30 plays, including \"'Master Harold'...And The Boys\" and \"Boesman And Lena.\" He co-wrote the plays \"Sizwe Banzi Is Dead\" and \"The Island\" with the Black South African actors John Kani and Winston Ntshona. His plays have been staged in the U.S. Six of his plays were produced on Broadway. He won a Tony Award for lifetime achievement in 2011. When I spoke with Fugard in 1986, I asked him why he remained in South Africa, where he lived under the apartheid system he opposed.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325736", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Athol Fugard", "title": "Remembering South African playwright Athol Fugard", "question_index": 1, "text": "Do you feel constrained there at all by limitations of what will be allowed to be performed on stage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I suppose it's a question of my continued existence as a writer. I just couldn't see myself writing about any other place or any other time. I have, on occasions in the past, described myself as a reg"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325736", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Athol Fugard", "title": "Remembering South African playwright Athol Fugard", "question_index": 2, "text": "Do you ever feel that if your work is not censored, then you're not doing your job?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I've got - I think I've become so used to living with that danger, with the danger of censorship. And in some ways, the situation today is a lot easier than it was in the past. I mean, I had t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325736", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Athol Fugard", "title": "Remembering South African playwright Athol Fugard", "question_index": 3, "text": "What do you think is the power of theater or art in general to help topple the apartheid system? Do you think of art in those terms? Do you think of art as having an overt political function?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. There is a terrible - there is the danger of a terrible sort of snobbery along those lines - you know? - that if you haven't been banned or if your work hasn't been censored or - let's put it eve"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325736", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Athol Fugard", "title": "Remembering South African playwright Athol Fugard", "question_index": 4, "text": "You've had collaborative relationships with many Black actors, and I'm sure that there are many obstacles in having that kind of relationship in a separatist country. Perhaps one of the first relationships you had like that was with Zakes Mokae in \"The Blood Knot.\" Were there any obstacles in actually getting together and working together on the play and then afterwards on performing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it obviously does have that. I mean, I - for example, I heard a story about a South African who had had very, very strong, traditional South African attitudes and who, for some reason or the oth"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325736", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Athol Fugard", "title": "Remembering South African playwright Athol Fugard", "question_index": 5, "text": "Did that affect the relationship that you had with each other since when officials asked, you had to be in the superior-employer relationship?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. Well, firstly, I mean, just in - just for Zakes and myself to get together as two actors and to go up onto a stage, that had never happened before in South Africa - that a Black man and a whi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325736", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Athol Fugard", "title": "Remembering South African playwright Athol Fugard", "question_index": 6, "text": "You also, in the 1960s, were a co-founder of a group called the Serpent Theater, which was also integrated. What were some of the difficulties then of rehearsing together? Were you allowed into the Black townships? Were they allowed into the white communities?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, you're quite right. Well, no, you've learned - you learn to play those games as part of your survival mechanism in South Africa. I mean, you know, many, many times, in order to bail Zakes and myse"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325736", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Athol Fugard", "title": "Remembering South African playwright Athol Fugard", "question_index": 7, "text": "Your play \"'Master Harold'...And The Boys\" is based in part on the relationship you had when you were young with a Black man who was a waiter, I think, at a cafe that your mother ran. There's an incident in the play that I think is based on an incident in your life, where the young white boy, who's the son of the mother who owns the cafe, who's really, very close with the waiter, spits in his face. From what I understand, it was very difficult for you to write that part in. Can I ask about the personal significance that that event had for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the Serpent Players were a group I worked with in my hometown of Port Elizabeth. And Port Elizabeth has always been a difficult area for me because the authorities there have consistently refuse"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325736", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Athol Fugard", "title": "Remembering South African playwright Athol Fugard", "question_index": 8, "text": "Is there a moment when you can point to and say, this is when I realized that the system of apartheid was evil, was unjust?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that did happen. Tragically, regrettably, a moment of - a cauterizing, traumatic moment of shame in my life - that I still live with - that was there at a point in my childhood coming out of - I "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325736", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Athol Fugard", "title": "Remembering South African playwright Athol Fugard", "question_index": 9, "text": "Was that about the time that you started writing plays also?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I mean, I knew it was. The process of discovering that it was evil and unjust, that it maimed and mutilated people, destroyed them, was something that happened, you know, more or less from the ti"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325736", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Athol Fugard", "title": "Remembering South African playwright Athol Fugard", "question_index": 10, "text": "We're listening back to the interview I recorded in 1986 with playwright, actor and director Athol Fugard. He died Saturday at age 92. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes. That is, in fact, the period when the very - my very first published play was written. I still think of it as an apprenticeship work, and it precedes the \"Blood Knot,\" a play called \"No-Good"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325736", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Athol Fugard", "title": "Remembering South African playwright Athol Fugard", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with white South African playwright, actor and director Athol Fugard. He died Saturday at age 92. His plays were in opposition to his country's apartheid system. One of the consequences he faced was being unable to leave South Africa for four years because the government revoked his passport. I spoke with him in 1986, eight years before the end of apartheid.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes. That is, in fact, the period when the very - my very first published play was written. I still think of it as an apprenticeship work, and it precedes the \"Blood Knot,\" a play called \"No-Good"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325736", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Athol Fugard", "title": "Remembering South African playwright Athol Fugard", "question_index": 12, "text": "I know one thing that drives a lot of white people who live in South Africa crazy is that every time you sit on a bench or board a bus or enter into certain stores, you are in a way making a complicit act with apartheid if that is a segregated bench or bus or store. And I wonder how you reconcile that now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes. That is, in fact, the period when the very - my very first published play was written. I still think of it as an apprenticeship work, and it precedes the \"Blood Knot,\" a play called \"No-Good"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325736", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Athol Fugard", "title": "Remembering South African playwright Athol Fugard", "question_index": 13, "text": "Do you feel that yourself and other white people who oppose apartheid end up feeling that they have to shoulder a lot of guilt for being there or for acts that may seem compromised from your youth, before you gained the awareness that you have now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The thing that you have to live with constantly in South Africa as a white South African who opposes the system is that even in opposing the system, even in doing what you can by way of writing plays "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325736", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Athol Fugard", "title": "Remembering South African playwright Athol Fugard", "question_index": 14, "text": "Do you have to ask yourself how productive guilt is at a certain point?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, that's very important. You really are touching on one of the major factors in the psychology of the white South African, is the operation, the presence of, the genesis of, the hoped for eliminatio"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325736", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Athol Fugard", "title": "Remembering South African playwright Athol Fugard", "question_index": 15, "text": "Your plays have been performed in South Africa and in America. I was thinking that American audiences might find it easier to give themselves over to your plays in that the kind of racism that is addressed in your plays is the kind of racism that exists in South Africa. And what I'm saying here is that I think American racism is a more covert kind of racism than the apartheid kind. And because it's happening over there, and we are not directly implicated in it, it's easier to perhaps not internalize some of the statements that you're making within your plays.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "True guilt, the admission of true guilt, is very important and can only be productive. To act out of false guilt is stupid and pointless."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325736", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Athol Fugard", "title": "Remembering South African playwright Athol Fugard", "question_index": 16, "text": "Is there a time that you have in your mind when you think you would actually leave South Africa, if things reached a certain point?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, very interesting. You are absolutely right. I mean, I would go along with what you have just said 100%. It's very interesting actually to sort of examine in what respects racism in the two count"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325736", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Athol Fugard", "title": "Remembering South African playwright Athol Fugard", "question_index": 17, "text": "My interview with Athol Fugard was recorded in 1986. He died Saturday at age 92. After we take a short break, we'll listen back to an interview with soul singer Jerry Butler, who died last month. And we'll remember jazz drummer Roy Haynes. Today is the centennial of his birth. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would never leave South Africa. I'd like to believe I would never leave South Africa. But in making that decision, I mean, I sort of commit my wife to it as well. I haven't quite resolved that for m"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325742", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Musical Group", "title": "Remembering soul singer Jerry Butler, aka the 'Iceman'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The great soul singer Jerry Butler died last month at the age of 85. We're going to remember him by listening back to our interview from 2000. He first recorded with the group The Impressions, which he co-founded with his friend Curtis Mayfield. Butler sang lead on The Impressions' 1958 hit \"For Your Precious Love,\" which he also co-wrote. After leaving the group, Butler went solo and had the hits \"He Will Break Your Heart,\" \"Let It Be Me,\" \"Make It Easy On Yourself,\" \"I Stand Accused,\" \"What's The Use Of Breaking Up,\" and \"Only The Strong Survive,\" which is the title of his memoir, which had just been published when we spoke. The Philadelphia radio DJ Georgie Woods nicknamed Butler the Ice Man because his style and stage presence were so cool. Butler was born in rural Mississippi in 1939. Three years later, he moved with his family to Chicago, where he continued to live. He became politically active in the city, serving on the Cook County Board of Commissioners from 1985 to 2008. When we spoke, he was serving his fourth term. We started with his 1969 hit, \"Only The Strong Survive.\" He co-wrote the song with Kenny Gamble and Leon Huff.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325742", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Musical Group", "title": "Remembering soul singer Jerry Butler, aka the 'Iceman'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Jerry Butler, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing)...Around with your..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325742", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Musical Group", "title": "Remembering soul singer Jerry Butler, aka the 'Iceman'", "question_index": 2, "text": "Tell us the story behind this song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325742", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Musical Group", "title": "Remembering soul singer Jerry Butler, aka the 'Iceman'", "question_index": 3, "text": "What's - what would you say is the importance of this song in your career?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "let me tell you this - that you have not seen half of the beautiful, lovely women in this world, and for you to be going through these kinds of changes this early in your life is absolutely ridiculous"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325742", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Musical Group", "title": "Remembering soul singer Jerry Butler, aka the 'Iceman'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, the - first of all, it was the first legitimate gold record. And when I say legitimate gold record, I mean \"For Your Precious Love\" and \"He Will Break Your Heart\" probably were gold records,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325742", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Musical Group", "title": "Remembering soul singer Jerry Butler, aka the 'Iceman'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Now, you first sang gospel music. You were part of a group called the Northern Jubilee Singers. And Curtis Mayfield was in that group, too, and, of course, you also sang together in The Impressions. How did you first meet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Only The Strong Survive\" was the first record that I actually got from a recording company that said, you are certified as having sold over a million copies of this song. But more important than that"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325742", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Musical Group", "title": "Remembering soul singer Jerry Butler, aka the 'Iceman'", "question_index": 6, "text": "Had your voice changed yet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so we kind of kept shoving him to the back, shoving him to the back, until he learned how to play the guitar. And then he kind of just took over because he was the real musician out of the group."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325742", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Musical Group", "title": "Remembering soul singer Jerry Butler, aka the 'Iceman'", "question_index": 7, "text": "What about Curtis Mayfield? His couldn't have. He was only 9. How did he sound?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As a matter of fact, it had. I - my voice went into the baritone register when I was about 13, and it has never come up again."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325742", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Musical Group", "title": "Remembering soul singer Jerry Butler, aka the 'Iceman'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Now, did you and Curtis Mayfield leave gospel music for rhythm and blues at about the same time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So he always had that kind of thing going. And I think over time, he effectively, as Smokey has done, used it to the point that it became really kind of his natural sound."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325742", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Musical Group", "title": "Remembering soul singer Jerry Butler, aka the 'Iceman'", "question_index": 9, "text": "What's an example of a hope-to-die love song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, see, we were never big and famous, as was Sam Cooke or Lou Rawls with the Pilgrim Travelers and Sam Cooke with the Soul Stirrers. And so when we started singing rhythm and blues, nobody was "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325742", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Musical Group", "title": "Remembering soul singer Jerry Butler, aka the 'Iceman'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yeah, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Your precious love means more to me than any love could ever be. Whereas he was writing, (singing) got to keep on pushing. Can't stop now. Move up a little higher. You see?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325742", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Musical Group", "title": "Remembering soul singer Jerry Butler, aka the 'Iceman'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Well, I think it's time to hear your first hit...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A difference in attitude."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325742", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Musical Group", "title": "Remembering soul singer Jerry Butler, aka the 'Iceman'", "question_index": 12, "text": "...\"For Your Precious Love,\" which was recorded in 1958, when you were with the Impressions. And you say that this was - that the lyric was originally a poem that you wrote when you were in high school?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325742", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Musical Group", "title": "Remembering soul singer Jerry Butler, aka the 'Iceman'", "question_index": 13, "text": "Was it changed at all for the lyric? Or is it exactly the same?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. A poem called \"They Say,\" as a matter of fact, as you will hear it in the lyric."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325742", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Musical Group", "title": "Remembering soul singer Jerry Butler, aka the 'Iceman'", "question_index": 14, "text": "OK. This is 1958, Jerry Butler and The Impressions.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The only thing that was changed is the title, \"For Your Precious Love.\""}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325742", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Musical Group", "title": "Remembering soul singer Jerry Butler, aka the 'Iceman'", "question_index": 15, "text": "My guest is soul singer Jerry Butler. That's his 1958 hit with the Impressions, \"For Your Precious Love.\" Now, let's talk about how you recorded that song. You had been with a group that was, I think, called the Roosters?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Your precious love means more to me than any love could ever be. For when I wanted you, I was so lonely and so blue, for that's what love will do. And, darling, I'm so surprised, oh, when I "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325742", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Musical Group", "title": "Remembering soul singer Jerry Butler, aka the 'Iceman'", "question_index": 16, "text": "Right. So who changed the name to the Impressions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, the Roosters became the Impressions."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325742", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Musical Group", "title": "Remembering soul singer Jerry Butler, aka the 'Iceman'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was Curtis' idea. Curtis said one day, after we had decided that - well, let me give you a little history."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325742", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Musical Group", "title": "Remembering soul singer Jerry Butler, aka the 'Iceman'", "question_index": 18, "text": "We're listening back to the interview I recorded with Jerry Butler in 2000. He died last month at age 85. We'll be right back with more of the interview after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that kind of wiped out the rooster name. We said, no, man. We've got to change this name. And Curtis said, well, wherever we go, what we want to do is to leave a lasting impression. And we said, t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325742", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Musical Group", "title": "Remembering soul singer Jerry Butler, aka the 'Iceman'", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded in 2000 with soul singer Jerry Butler. He died last month at age 85. His hits included \"He Will Break Your Heart,\" \"Let It Be Me,\" \"Make It Easy On Yourself,\" \"I Stand Accused\" and \"Only The Strong Survive.\" When we left off, we were talking about his first hit, \"For Your Precious Love.\" He cowrote the song and recorded it with The Impressions, the group he cofounded with Curtis Mayfield. Butler sang lead on the track.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that kind of wiped out the rooster name. We said, no, man. We've got to change this name. And Curtis said, well, wherever we go, what we want to do is to leave a lasting impression. And we said, t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325742", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Musical Group", "title": "Remembering soul singer Jerry Butler, aka the 'Iceman'", "question_index": 20, "text": "Were there any squabbles about who would get to sing lead on your first recordings?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that kind of wiped out the rooster name. We said, no, man. We've got to change this name. And Curtis said, well, wherever we go, what we want to do is to leave a lasting impression. And we said, t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325742", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Musical Group", "title": "Remembering soul singer Jerry Butler, aka the 'Iceman'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Did that have to do with your leaving?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it kind of came with the song. For instance, if Curtis wrote the song, Curtis sang the lead. If I wrote the song, I sang the lead. There was a squabble after \"For Your Precious Love\" was rel"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325742", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Musical Group", "title": "Remembering soul singer Jerry Butler, aka the 'Iceman'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Explain more about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325742", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Musical Group", "title": "Remembering soul singer Jerry Butler, aka the 'Iceman'", "question_index": 23, "text": "Let's hear the - what I think was the first hit you had when you went solo - \"He Will Break Your Heart\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, here we were - five young guys walked into a recording studio as the Impressions, walked out as Jerry Butler and the Impressions. The other four guys were wondering, well, what did Jerry do to g"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325742", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Musical Group", "title": "Remembering soul singer Jerry Butler, aka the 'Iceman'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325742", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Musical Group", "title": "Remembering soul singer Jerry Butler, aka the 'Iceman'", "question_index": 25, "text": "And how did this become the song that you made?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325742", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Musical Group", "title": "Remembering soul singer Jerry Butler, aka the 'Iceman'", "question_index": 26, "text": "OK. Recorded in 1960, this is Jerry Butler with Curtis Mayfield. It's been so much fun to talk with you. I want to thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What happened was my wife, Annette, Curtis and a young fellow by the name of Eddie Thomas, who was at that time working as a roadie, we were driving from Philadelphia to Atlantic City, and we were tal"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5325742", "date": "2025-03-13", "guest": "Unidentified Musical Group", "title": "Remembering soul singer Jerry Butler, aka the 'Iceman'", "question_index": 27, "text": "My interview with Jerry Butler was recorded in 2000. He died last month. He was 85. Jazz drummer Roy Haynes, who played with jazz luminaries from Lester Young and Charlie Parker to Gary Burton and Pat Metheny, was born a hundred years ago today. Jazz historian Kevin Whitehead will have an appreciation after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) He don't love you like I love you. If he did, he wouldn't break your heart. He don't love you like I love you. He's trying to tear us apart. Fare thee well. I know you're leaving."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 0, "text": "You know, like so many other of your fans, I first saw you in \"The Rocky Horror Picture Show\" in the '70s. And when you see somebody in a movie for the first time, it's sometimes hard to tell how good they are. You don't know, is this all they can do? Do they do other things, too? Is this what they're really like, or, you know, how much are they acting? And so I saw you - I guess this was probably, like, the late '80s - in \"Wiseguy,\" the TV series.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Frank-N-Furter) How forceful you are, Brad. Such a perfect specimen of manhood, so dominant."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 1, "text": "And you played a kind of Phil Spector-ish, brilliant but crazy record producer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 2, "text": "And a great, really terrific performance. And that, I think, is when I really got the picture, wow, he's really good at doing all kinds of things", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 4, "text": "I'll say, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's so nice. I mean, it's sort of important for me because, you know, that first performance that sort of introduced me to everybody was so out there and so..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Was that because of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...So kind of outrageous that, you know, I was a very quiet boy for a while, you know, just to make sure that people got it, that, you know, that wasn't necessarily who I was."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 6, "text": "That was your first movie?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was my first movie, you know?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 7, "text": "How did you get the part?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I got the part because I used to work a great deal at a theater in London called The Royal Court. And I guess - they have a little theater upstairs, which seats about 60 people, and I did Brecht there"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that, of course, never even opened to the critics. But the next show coming in was this other musical called \"The Rocky Horror Show.\" And originally, I played Frank-N-Furter as though he was Germa"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 10, "text": "That's great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...He should sound like the queen."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Did you like the kind of cheap horror films that it, in part, parodied?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So - but that's how it happened, and it just started in this tiny theater, you know, and it just took off like a sort of rocket."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 13, "text": "The Jean Genet play?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely. And I mean, it - Richard's brilliance really was just, you know, it was really like reaching up a hand into the zeitgeist and just grabbing, you know, '50s horror movies, Sandra Dee, c"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 14, "text": "That's funny you'd be wearing it in - for, like, this transgressive playwright Genet and then", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, the Jean Genet play. I played Solange, and we bought the corset for 3 pounds off a barrow in the market in Glasgow and wore it back to front."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 15, "text": "this parody...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, the Jean Genet play. I played Solange, and we bought the corset for 3 pounds off a barrow in the market in Glasgow and wore it back to front."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 16, "text": "...Of everything, \"Rocky Horror.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, absolutely."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Well, there's probably nothing that can get you into character quickly, like black bikini briefs, fishnet stockings, the garter belt, the corset, the whole", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 18, "text": "thing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 19, "text": "You didn't when...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, absolutely. And that was a fairly late development. I mean, I had no idea it was going to be like that at all."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 20, "text": "...You accepted the part?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 21, "text": "So how did the whole thing...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no, no. I thought I'd be in a white lab coat, you know?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 22, "text": "How did it all evolve then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it was a bit of a shock, actually."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 23, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And, I mean, the great - I thought the great gag about, you know, the way that we all looked was - and I've always said this to anybody who's ever asked me about playing Frank-N-Furter - if they wer"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 24, "text": "I think the thing I found most amazing about the whole phenomenon of \"Rocky Horror\" was watching, like, the 12-year-olds outside the theater parading around in their transvestite clothes...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it's just what everybody wears in Transylvania. So just get over it, you know? It's truck driver drag. It's it's not about going boop, boop be doop (ph). It's just what they happen to wear."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 25, "text": "...Because they were all - there was just, like, all these 12-year-olds outside the theater imitating you in your get-up. And you had to just kind of ask yourself, what is going on here? What did the 12-year-olds make of it? I mean, are they going through some kind of gender thing, or do they just love the movie? Like, what is this about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 26, "text": "Did you ever go to one of, like, the midnight screenings back in the '70s and watch the movie with the people who were reciting along, and when they would make a toast on screen, people would, like, throw toast, you know, at the screen, and, you know, the whole bit? It became an incredibly participatory experience for the people who came to see it time and time again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's all of the above, actually. I mean, I think, first of all, they love the movie because it's daring to pretty much everybody. It was daring at the time - less daring now. To them, it's dar"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 27, "text": "In Manhattan, in the Village.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did go. I went a couple of times. Oddly enough, it started happening at the Waverly Theater..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 28, "text": "Oh, you're kidding.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...On Sixth Avenue in the Village. And ironically, I was living a block behind it on Jones Street."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 29, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I would see on my way home all these people. And, you know, I got to know about it rather quickly because I was a neighbor."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 30, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And finally, I went to see it. And, in fact, I had to sort of call the theater because, you know, you could never get in. And I said, you know, I'm in it, and I'd really love to come and see it and ge"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 31, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So finally, I showed up, and they sort of believed me and took me in. And the word spread rather swiftly, and people were sort of coming up and touching me and running away and giggling. And it was a "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 32, "text": "Did you protest?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Which is quite funny, really."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 33, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I actually had - well, I actually had my passport on me, and..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I saw it once - I saw it once on the Strip in LA because I was doing a gig there with my band when I was making records, and I took them up to the balcony to see it, and I remember my drummer comi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I - you know, I said, no, you really don't, and I shan't be, either. But it was odd. I mean, it's a very peculiar experience. I mean, the first person to actually shout back in the theater was Dav"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 36, "text": "Your father was a chaplain in the British Navy.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Tim Curry speaking to Terry Gross in 2005. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2005 interview with Tim Curry. He starred in both the Broadway version of \"The Rocky Horror "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 37, "text": "What did your parents think of your role in \"Rocky Horror\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 38, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he alas was dead 'cause he died when I was 12."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 39, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- my mother, who, you know, is really, like, one of those sort of \"Monty Python\" ladies, you know, (impersonating old lady) I can't imagine what's going on..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 40, "text": "And you were probably naked in that, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know, who will - always had a hat, and - since my first job in the theater was \"Hair\" and, you know, I..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 41, "text": "At least you were covered by a corset and garters", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And I did appear naked in it, I think, you know, it was a relief to her that I actually was wearing clothes of any kind in \"The Rocky Horror Show.\""}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 42, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And I did appear naked in it, I think, you know, it was a relief to her that I actually was wearing clothes of any kind in \"The Rocky Horror Show.\""}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 43, "text": "In what way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was happily unaware that part of the character, particularly Frank-N-Furter at his most gracious, was based on her."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 44, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was sort of her telephone voice, you know? (As Frank-N-Furter) Do you have any tattoos, Brad?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 45, "text": "That's really funny.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My sister, when she saw it, fell on the floor and said, you know, does she know? And I said, no, she has absolutely no idea, and please don't tell her. She thought it was very, very amusing and brough"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 46, "text": "And I would bet that she did not - the Queen Mother did not go to \"Hair\" or \"Rocky Horror.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She didn't like it as much as \"The Pirates Of Penzance,\" which I did at Drury Lane, because the Queen Mother came to that, and that, you know, was the total seal of approval of my career."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 47, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think she went to either, although Princess Margaret did come to \"Rocky Horror\" and had a wonderful time."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 48, "text": "So did you ever meet Princess Diana?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so did - and Princess Diana actually requested to meet me because she was such a \"Rocky Horror\" fan."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5334567", "date": "2025-03-21", "guest": "Tim Curry", "title": "Tim Curry remembers his first film role in 'The Rocky Horror Picture Show'", "question_index": 49, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did actually meet Princess Diana. We - I was doing a production of \"Love For love,\" and it was taken to Vienna for British Week, and we played at the Burgtheater. And Prince Charles and Princess Dia"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341420", "date": "2025-03-27", "guest": "Robert Worth", "title": "Syria's transitional leader is a former jihadist. Can he help stabilize the region?", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The unintentional inclusion of journalist Jeffrey Goldberg in a messaging app group chat of U.S. national security leaders outlining U.S. plans to attack the Houthis in Yemen has certainly increased awareness of who the Houthis are. I realize that is not the main takeaway of this story, but it's kind of where my guest, Robert Worth, fits in. He has been reporting on the Houthis for over a decade - most recently in The Atlantic, the same publication where Jeffrey Goldberg serves as editor-in-chief. Before Goldberg revealed his inclusion in the chat, we invited Robert Worth to talk about his new article in The Atlantic, which is about Syria's new leader, Ahmed al-Sharaa. Sharaa is something of a wild card. Maybe he'll bring unity and stability to Syria, which he says is his goal. But he's a former jihadist and founded the Syrian branch of the Islamist terrorist group al-Qaida. Sharaa led the attacks that overthrew the brutal Syrian dictator Bashar al-Assad, and he's now serving as the transitional president of Syria. He says he wants to maintain peace, create unity and inclusion and prevent revenge killings. Considering the ongoing revenge killings, the conflicts between militia groups, and the destruction of 14 years of civil war, this is going to be a very hard job to do. Worth's article is titled \"Can One Man Hold Syria Together? A Former Jihadist Has Remade Himself In A Bid To Remake A Scarred And Divided Country.\" Robert Worth is a contributing writer at The Atlantic and has spent more than two decades writing about the Middle East, Europe and Asia. Robert Worth, welcome to FRESH AIR. And I want to say, before we start, we are recording less than an hour after the transcript was released by Jeffrey Goldberg of the entire chat that he was mistakenly included in. So what's your reaction to this Goldberg story? Not to the transcript, but to his inclusion in this and what that says?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341420", "date": "2025-03-27", "guest": "Robert Worth", "title": "Syria's transitional leader is a former jihadist. Can he help stabilize the region?", "question_index": 1, "text": "Part of the transcript that Goldberg did initially release has JD Vance - vice president - saying, I just hate bailing out the Europeans again. And Pete Hegseth, secretary of defense, responds, I fully share your loathing of European freeloading. It's pathetic - with pathetic in capital letters. So, you know, just as background, explain what the Houthis have been doing that these airstrikes were retaliation for.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was staggering. I mean, journalists like me use Signal all the time to communicate with our sources and, for that matter, with friends. But it's - I never imagined that a group of top governm"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341420", "date": "2025-03-27", "guest": "Robert Worth", "title": "Syria's transitional leader is a former jihadist. Can he help stabilize the region?", "question_index": 2, "text": "How much does Europe benefit more than the U.S. does by freeing up the shipping lanes in the Middle East?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Houthis, ever since shortly after the October 7 Hamas attack on Israel, began launching attacks on shipping in the Red Sea that goes - runs up to the Suez Canal, which is one of the most important"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341420", "date": "2025-03-27", "guest": "Robert Worth", "title": "Syria's transitional leader is a former jihadist. Can he help stabilize the region?", "question_index": 3, "text": "Yeah, so what message does this send to our European allies?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think a greater proportion. Europe is closer to the Middle East. There's more that comes through into the Mediterranean, you know, that benefits Europe from that trade. But certainly, the Unit"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341420", "date": "2025-03-27", "guest": "Robert Worth", "title": "Syria's transitional leader is a former jihadist. Can he help stabilize the region?", "question_index": 4, "text": "Was the strike itself controversial?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's a message that was already broadcast pretty vehemently by Vance at the Munich Security Conference not long ago that he's disappointed in them. He feels they're free-riders. He also feels th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341420", "date": "2025-03-27", "guest": "Robert Worth", "title": "Syria's transitional leader is a former jihadist. Can he help stabilize the region?", "question_index": 5, "text": "The Trump administration has been saying that the Biden administration's attacks on the Houthis, they didn't really accomplish much. They weren't well handled. Does that seem accurate to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't really think so. As I mentioned, the Biden administration had done a number of strikes on the Houthis. The Houthis are, by any definition, a radical, dangerous group that has, first of all, wi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341420", "date": "2025-03-27", "guest": "Robert Worth", "title": "Syria's transitional leader is a former jihadist. Can he help stabilize the region?", "question_index": 6, "text": "So Iran backs the Houthis. In dealing with the Houthis, how much do you have to take into account Iran and what Iran's response might be?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not really. The Biden administration did everything it could. And again, you know, this is using the intelligence they have. The - you know, the Pentagon, the Fifth Fleet was directly involved in "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341420", "date": "2025-03-27", "guest": "Robert Worth", "title": "Syria's transitional leader is a former jihadist. Can he help stabilize the region?", "question_index": 7, "text": "Well, we need to take a short break here, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Robert Worth. He's a contributing writer to The Atlantic. His new article is about Syria's transitional president, Ahmed al-Sharaa. Worth's article is titled \"Can One Man Hold Syria Together?: A Former Jihadist Has Remade Himself In A Bid To Remake A Scarred And Divided Country.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Iran has backed the Houthis for a long time. They see them as a part of their axis of resistance, as they call it. Israel succeeded in seriously degrading and damaging Hezbollah, which is the most dir"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341420", "date": "2025-03-27", "guest": "Robert Worth", "title": "Syria's transitional leader is a former jihadist. Can he help stabilize the region?", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Robert Worth. His new article in The Atlantic is titled \"Can One Man Hold Syria Together?\" It's about Ahmed al-Sharaa, the transitional president of Syria. Robert Worth is a contributing writer at The Atlantic. So let's talk about your new article, which is about Syria and its new transitional president, who's a very, like, interesting and kind of mysterious figure in a lot of ways. But first, I want you to tell us Syria's importance in the whole instability of the Middle East right now. Where does Syria fit in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Iran has backed the Houthis for a long time. They see them as a part of their axis of resistance, as they call it. Israel succeeded in seriously degrading and damaging Hezbollah, which is the most dir"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341420", "date": "2025-03-27", "guest": "Robert Worth", "title": "Syria's transitional leader is a former jihadist. Can he help stabilize the region?", "question_index": 9, "text": "And he's talked about moving from beyond a revolutionary mindset, which can topple a regime but can't rebuild a state. So how was he radicalized in the first place? You're right that he grew up in a pretty wealthy neighborhood in Damascus. He was considered a studious and shy boy when he was in school. He became more radical, I think, at the age of 19. How did he become radicalized? And I'll repeat that he founded the Syrian branch of al-Qaida.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Syria, first of all, is in the center of the Levant, so it has borders with Iraq, with Lebanon and Israel and Turkey. So just as a kind of crossing point between these other countries, it's incredibly"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341420", "date": "2025-03-27", "guest": "Robert Worth", "title": "Syria's transitional leader is a former jihadist. Can he help stabilize the region?", "question_index": 10, "text": "So, you know, you raise the question in your article - like, who do you believe, the former terrorist or the moderating force? - because al-Sharaa embodies both. But your observation seems to be that he really did moderate. And maybe it's just because he wants power and he's being a pragmatist, but the fact is that he moderated. What are the signs of that that you see now in Syria?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he became radicalized at a time when those are the winds blowing through the region. It was around the time of the second intifada in Palestine. It was the time of the American invasion of Iraq."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341420", "date": "2025-03-27", "guest": "Robert Worth", "title": "Syria's transitional leader is a former jihadist. Can he help stabilize the region?", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is when he was taking over Syria and forcing out Assad.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sharaa, first of all, tried very hard to avoid revenge killings, reprisals, as his forces were moving from Idlib down towards the capital. I had a friend..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341420", "date": "2025-03-27", "guest": "Robert Worth", "title": "Syria's transitional leader is a former jihadist. Can he help stabilize the region?", "question_index": 12, "text": "We need to take another break here, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Robert Worth, a contributing writer at The Atlantic. His new article is about Syria's transitional president, Ahmed al-Sharaa, titled \"Can One Man Hold Syria Together? A Former Jihadist Has Remade Himself In A Bid To Remake A Scarred And Divided Country.\" We'll talk more after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. This was back in late November when his forces moved from Idlib, first into Aleppo, the second city of Syria, which is up in the north. And I have friends there, and I was worried. I was"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341420", "date": "2025-03-27", "guest": "Robert Worth", "title": "Syria's transitional leader is a former jihadist. Can he help stabilize the region?", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Robert Worth. His new article in The Atlantic is titled \"Can One Man Hold Syria Together?\" It's about Syria's transitional president, Ahmed al-Sharaa, the founder of Syria's branch of al-Qaida, the leader of the attacks that overthrew Syria's longtime dictator, Bashar al-Assad. And he's now serving as Syria's interim president. He's advocating for peace, unity and inclusion. But it's hard for some people to know if he's for real or if that's a mask covering a more hard-line Islamist agenda. Robert Worth is a contributing writer at The Atlantic. What are Sharaa's biggest accomplishments so far?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. This was back in late November when his forces moved from Idlib, first into Aleppo, the second city of Syria, which is up in the north. And I have friends there, and I was worried. I was"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341420", "date": "2025-03-27", "guest": "Robert Worth", "title": "Syria's transitional leader is a former jihadist. Can he help stabilize the region?", "question_index": 14, "text": "So, you know, when Sharaa was trying to stop sectarian violence, he called in reinforcements. And you say thousands of gunmen poured into the region, including foreign Jihadists, who helped capture the capital in December. That doesn't sound like a recipe for stabilizing the country.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "First of all, he conquered Syria without letting that devolve into a bloody mess, at least at the very start. And he did that because he's got very strong discipline on the core of his movement. He ca"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341420", "date": "2025-03-27", "guest": "Robert Worth", "title": "Syria's transitional leader is a former jihadist. Can he help stabilize the region?", "question_index": 15, "text": "Was that because they had been under Assad's control, and they were horrible", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, this is Sharaa's big problem is that he needed these guys to capture Syria, and he still needs them to some extent in order to maintain security. One of the things I think Sharaa did wrong was t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341420", "date": "2025-03-27", "guest": "Robert Worth", "title": "Syria's transitional leader is a former jihadist. Can he help stabilize the region?", "question_index": 16, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, this is Sharaa's big problem is that he needed these guys to capture Syria, and he still needs them to some extent in order to maintain security. One of the things I think Sharaa did wrong was t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341420", "date": "2025-03-27", "guest": "Robert Worth", "title": "Syria's transitional leader is a former jihadist. Can he help stabilize the region?", "question_index": 17, "text": "There's also, like, conflicting militias in Syria because there were different militias fighting the Assad regime. But now that the country seems more stable and Assad is gone, what's happening with these different militias? Are they still fighting each other?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, the pretext was either they have blood on their hands or they're totally corrupt. That was the reason given to me by a bunch of lower-down people in HTS. HTS is the core force that Sharaa led. T"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341420", "date": "2025-03-27", "guest": "Robert Worth", "title": "Syria's transitional leader is a former jihadist. Can he help stabilize the region?", "question_index": 18, "text": "Under Assad, there was a culture of informing, informing on friends and neighbors and people you work with. And you write about the shop that handled a lot of that, including, like, the costumes, the makeup, the wigs as disguises. Can you describe what was in this surveillance center?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They're not really fighting each other. The biggest problem he faces is in the east, where you have this Kurdish-led militia known as the SDF, the Syrian Democratic Forces. And they had carved out, re"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341420", "date": "2025-03-27", "guest": "Robert Worth", "title": "Syria's transitional leader is a former jihadist. Can he help stabilize the region?", "question_index": 19, "text": "So Sharaa is now trying to run a really large country with, as you put it, this skeleton crew of a government made up mostly of people he's known and trusted for years, including his brother, who is the acting minister of health. And here's an example of what's happening now. The superintendent of schools in a region where the Alawites are in the majority - and the Alawites are the minority group that Assad was part of. So they're a minority group, but they were in power for years, and there's a lot of hatred of that group because of the Assad regime. So the superintendent of schools is in a region where the Alawites are in the majority, and a video had emerged of him delivering a sermon in 2023 in which he said, I ask Almighty God to cleanse our eyes by purifying our country of the filth of the Alawites, Shias and Jews. What has the reaction been to that - to the uncovering of that video?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Ever since Assad fell, people have been digging through - they've been opening the prisons, they've been looking through the security centers. All of these sort of monstrous secrets of the Assad"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341420", "date": "2025-03-27", "guest": "Robert Worth", "title": "Syria's transitional leader is a former jihadist. Can he help stabilize the region?", "question_index": 20, "text": "So who is doing the massacring?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think these things are especially frightening to - I mean, they're not entirely shocking because it was an Islamist-run enclave when Sharaa was running it. And now they're in charge of the whole cou"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341420", "date": "2025-03-27", "guest": "Robert Worth", "title": "Syria's transitional leader is a former jihadist. Can he help stabilize the region?", "question_index": 21, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Robert Worth. He's a contributing writer for The Atlantic. His new article is about Syria's transitional president, Ahmed al-Sharaa. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A lot of them seem to be from these militias that are at the outer rings of Sharaa's coalition, the people who are much less disciplined, the people who essentially were criminals probably before. And"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341420", "date": "2025-03-27", "guest": "Robert Worth", "title": "Syria's transitional leader is a former jihadist. Can he help stabilize the region?", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Robert Worth. His new article in The Atlantic is titled \"Can One Man Hold Syria Together?\" It's about Syria's transitional president, Ahmed al-Sharaa, the founder of Syria's branch of al-Qaida, the leader of the attacks that overthrew Syria's longtime dictator, Bashar al-Assad, and he's now serving as Syria's interim president and is advocating for peace, unity and inclusion. So in spite of Sharaa's efforts to moderate in Syria, there's still plenty of signs of, you know, radical Islam. And I want you to describe the da'wah, who are in charge of spreading Islam with songs and recitations, and your encounter with them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A lot of them seem to be from these militias that are at the outer rings of Sharaa's coalition, the people who are much less disciplined, the people who essentially were criminals probably before. And"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341420", "date": "2025-03-27", "guest": "Robert Worth", "title": "Syria's transitional leader is a former jihadist. Can he help stabilize the region?", "question_index": 23, "text": "So where do Alawites fit in, in terms of religion?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I ran into these guys in a couple of places. One of them was in Homs, which is a town north of Damascus, one of the major towns in one of the major cities in Syria. And you can say what you like"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341420", "date": "2025-03-27", "guest": "Robert Worth", "title": "Syria's transitional leader is a former jihadist. Can he help stabilize the region?", "question_index": 24, "text": "You did something that I thought was incredibly brave", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's an offshoot of Shia Islam that goes back a long way. For many mainstream and especially hard-line Muslims, they don't even think it's part of Islam. Bashar al-Assad's father, Hafez al-Assad, pres"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341420", "date": "2025-03-27", "guest": "Robert Worth", "title": "Syria's transitional leader is a former jihadist. Can he help stabilize the region?", "question_index": 25, "text": ". You asked to join a truck with two dozen armed men. These are in pickup trucks. And they were gearing up for a raid on a mission to seize and destroy hidden drugs that the Assad regime was using as their main source of revenue in the final years of the regime. They were all armed. You didn't know them. How did you find out what their mission was, and why did you decide to take the risk to go with them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's an offshoot of Shia Islam that goes back a long way. For many mainstream and especially hard-line Muslims, they don't even think it's part of Islam. Bashar al-Assad's father, Hafez al-Assad, pres"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341420", "date": "2025-03-27", "guest": "Robert Worth", "title": "Syria's transitional leader is a former jihadist. Can he help stabilize the region?", "question_index": 26, "text": "Yeah, I've never heard of Captagon before. So would you explain what kind of drug it is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This thing happened completely by chance. So I happened to be in the middle of Damascus, and suddenly these guys drive up in pickup trucks. And the translator and fixer we're working with said, wait a"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341420", "date": "2025-03-27", "guest": "Robert Worth", "title": "Syria's transitional leader is a former jihadist. Can he help stabilize the region?", "question_index": 27, "text": "So what did they do? Like, burn all the drugs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, Captagon is an amphetamine, and it's very common across the Arab world. It was taken, actually, by some Islamists to keep them going during the ISIS period, you know? And it's sold - a lot of Ca"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341420", "date": "2025-03-27", "guest": "Robert Worth", "title": "Syria's transitional leader is a former jihadist. Can he help stabilize the region?", "question_index": 28, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Robert Worth, a contributing writer at The Atlantic. His new article is about Syria's transitional president, Ahmed al-Sharaa, a former Jihadist, who's now advocating for peace, unity and inclusion. We'll be right back. This FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". You know, there were no safeguards. But they, I think, wanted me to see this. You know, it was pretty clear that, you know, they could have sold these drugs and made a lot of money, and they were sa"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341420", "date": "2025-03-27", "guest": "Robert Worth", "title": "Syria's transitional leader is a former jihadist. Can he help stabilize the region?", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Robert Worth. His new article in The Atlantic is titled Can One Man Hold Syria together? It's about Syria's transitional president, Ahmed al-Sharaa, the founder of Syria's branch of al-Qaida, the leader of the attacks that overthrew Syria's longtime dictator Bashar al-Assad, and he's now serving as Syria's interim president. He's advocating for peace, unity and inclusion, but it's hard for some people to know if he's for real or if that's a mask covering a more hardline Islamist agenda. Robert Worth is a contributing writer at The Atlantic. So Syria really needs money to rebuild. I mean, after 14 years of civil war under, you know, a brutal dictator, this - a lot of Syria is destroyed. People are living in fear. So they need money to rebuild. What do they want from the Trump administration? Has there been an ask yet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". You know, there were no safeguards. But they, I think, wanted me to see this. You know, it was pretty clear that, you know, they could have sold these drugs and made a lot of money, and they were sa"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341420", "date": "2025-03-27", "guest": "Robert Worth", "title": "Syria's transitional leader is a former jihadist. Can he help stabilize the region?", "question_index": 30, "text": "What has the Trump administration's reaction been to Sharaa and his leadership in Syria?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Sharaa has been saying since December, since he took over the country, for the Trump administration and for the Europeans to remove the sanctions, which, after all, were levied, you know, on the "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341420", "date": "2025-03-27", "guest": "Robert Worth", "title": "Syria's transitional leader is a former jihadist. Can he help stabilize the region?", "question_index": 31, "text": "What about Syria and Israel? What do you know about Netanyahu's reaction to this new Syria?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They have made pretty clear that they - at least initially, they distrusted him. They were very skeptical of him, because he was an Islamist. Members of the Trump cabinet had said things like, you kno"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341420", "date": "2025-03-27", "guest": "Robert Worth", "title": "Syria's transitional leader is a former jihadist. Can he help stabilize the region?", "question_index": 32, "text": "But Syria is no longer aligned with Iran. Is that right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Netanyahu. The Israeli government seems to be very skeptical, very distrustful. They took advantage very quickly, the opportunity to do hundreds of air strikes across Syria to get rid of the remnants "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341420", "date": "2025-03-27", "guest": "Robert Worth", "title": "Syria's transitional leader is a former jihadist. Can he help stabilize the region?", "question_index": 33, "text": "So what are your takeaways and impressions after going to Syria and doing this in-depth reporting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's not at all aligned with Iran. And so that's an automatic win for Israel. Israel, you know, sees Iran as its biggest threat, and it saw Hezbollah as an arm of Iran. Hezbollah's massively weakened."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341420", "date": "2025-03-27", "guest": "Robert Worth", "title": "Syria's transitional leader is a former jihadist. Can he help stabilize the region?", "question_index": 34, "text": "Robert Worth, thank you so much for talking with us. I really appreciate all of the knowledge you were able to bring to this conversation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, one of the most striking things about being in Syria now - I've spent a lot of time in Syria in the past. You know, I used to report on it frequently when I was based in Beirut. And in the p"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341420", "date": "2025-03-27", "guest": "Robert Worth", "title": "Syria's transitional leader is a former jihadist. Can he help stabilize the region?", "question_index": 35, "text": "Robert Worth is a contributing writer for The Atlantic. His latest article is about the former Jihadist who is now the transitional president of Syria. You can find his recent articles about the Houthis on The Atlantic website.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a pleasure to be here."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341420", "date": "2025-03-27", "guest": "Robert Worth", "title": "Syria's transitional leader is a former jihadist. Can he help stabilize the region?", "question_index": 36, "text": "If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, like this week's interviews with Amanda Knox and with New York Times congressional reporters Luke Broadwater and Annie Karni about their new book on what they describe as the first MAGA-controlled Congress, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. And to find out what's happening behind the scenes of our show and get our producers' recommendations for what to watch, read and listen to, subscribe to our free newsletter at whyy.org/freshair. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Briger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Monique Nazareth, Therese Madden, Susan Nyakundi, Anna Bauman and Joe Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a pleasure to be here."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 0, "text": "Sigrid Nunez, welcome to FRESH AIR. I want to start with a reading from your novel. And this is from very early on, when the main character has recently learned that her friend has committed suicide and is reflecting on, like, why.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The novel \"The Friend\" is filled with reflections about the line between appropriate and inappropriate relations between students and teachers, what it's like to mourn a friend who left no note to exp"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 1, "text": "That was Sigrid Nunez reading from her novel, \"The Friend.\" So this novel has a lot to do with suicide and trying to understand why somebody did it. Have you lost someone to suicide?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) Because of the timing, so near the start of the year, it was possible to think that it had been a resolution. One of those times when you talked about it, you said that what would stop you w"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 2, "text": "How did that person take their life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I have. I have. And when - before I started writing this book, one of the main reasons why I wanted to write about suicide was because I realized that I knew quite a few people who had the idea o"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 3, "text": "And what did it make you think about, thinking of the way that person chose to end it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He jumped from the Golden Gate Bridge."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 4, "text": "It must hurt for you to think about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I actually think that when people make that decision, it's such a mystery. I do know that people who have jumped and have survived, no small number of them have said afterwards that as soon as their h"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 5, "text": "When a friend of yours talks about the temptation of suicide, what do you say? Do you say - you know, do you try to talk them out of it? Do you try to just listen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Certainly. And I - you know, I - he did not - I was not in touch with him right before he killed himself, and there was no note. So I really don't know exactly what his thoughts were. Now, he was some"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 6, "text": "Another issue that your novel deals with is relationships between professors and students, specifically, between male professors and female students and the attraction that can form between them. The main character is a woman, and the character who kills himself - her very dear friend - had been her college professor years ago. And they even had a brief affair after he told her they should try sleeping together because he said, we should find that out about each other. And she says, I don't think it ever occurred to either of us that I might refuse. And then he tells her that, oh, it's not really going to work out", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I try to just listen. My friend who jumped from the bridge, suicide was something he talked about all the time and the different ways that he might do it. Also you - when you know that somebody is"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 7, "text": ". And she's kind of devastated, but they remain good friends. He marries three times. They remain good friends throughout all those marriages. She's never quite sure what the wives feel about their relationship. And he tells her to be a teacher is to be a seducer, and there are times when he must also be a heartbreaker. Have you heard men say that about teaching, that to be a teacher is to be a seducer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I try to just listen. My friend who jumped from the bridge, suicide was something he talked about all the time and the different ways that he might do it. Also you - when you know that somebody is"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 8, "text": "It strikes me as such a male thing. Like, I don't think women teachers, women professors, see themselves that way unless you're talking about seducing people into learning. But I don't think women teachers see themselves as wanting to flirt and maybe go to bed with their students. I'm not saying all men do, either, but I think it's, over the years, been more a common thing for men than for women.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have. I have. And I believe in this case, he is paraphrasing something that was said by George Steiner. Yes. If not in those words - or let's just put it this way. If not in words, in some cases, th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 9, "text": "Seductive in the literal sense of like, I'm going to try to convince you to sleep with me, or just seductive at a...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that might be true, but I do think that women, female mentors and women in positions of power, do indeed have that same feeling. They might not carry it all the way through, but wanting to seduc"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 10, "text": "...Distance. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 11, "text": "I was going to say, just to put that in context, when you were in your 20s, I think...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Both, both. It would depend on the person. But Sontag used to talk about that, about her - how when she had any kind of affection or strong feeling for anyone, she always also wanted to sleep with tha"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 12, "text": "You were a couple with David Rieff, Susan Sontag's son. She, at the time, was diagnosed with cancer. You were both living with Susan Sontag. She became a friend and mentor to you. And you got to see her at her best and her worst.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 13, "text": "OK. Have you ever felt like a seducer as a teacher yourself? - 'cause you've taught in different settings. I mean, you've taught literature and writing in colleges. You've taught English as a second language. So - and you've taught over the years. So you've seen issues about, you know, power in the classroom change over the years.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 14, "text": "What do you think would have been different?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've never - no, I've never had that - I've never had any kind of issue come up, even, you know, remotely connected to that. You know, it's been helpful to me that I didn't start teaching until I was "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 15, "text": "As you've said, you've seen the rules of conduct in the classroom change. It's against the guidelines in most places now to have a relationship with a student - you know, a sexual relationship with a student. And you've also said you know, in the past, marriages that have worked out really well between a professor and the student. And the one I think of immediately is poet Donald Hall and poet Jane Kenyon. And she was...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sigrid Nunez speaking to Terry Gross in 2019. Their conversation includes a discussion of suicide. So please note - if you or someone you know has thoughts of suicide and needs help, call or text the "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 16, "text": "...First his student, and then they - you know, they had a long marriage.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 17, "text": "But probably, the more common thing is closer to inappropriate. You know what I mean? Like, there have been some great marriages and relationships that have come out of that, and some also are, like, real damage and inappropriate things. How have you seen the rules change? Like, your character has to attend sexual misconduct classes and learn what the new rules were. So how have you seen the new rules change, and how have you reacted to it as a woman?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And I can't think of any names right now, any couples. But there are many, many of them like Donald, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 18, "text": "What year are we talking about when you were in college?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, we all take those courses now in universities and colleges. As soon as you start teaching, there's an online course about sexual misconduct, so trying to make everything as clear as possible. And "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 19, "text": "And then there's the question, like, in - if you're not supposed to talk about sexually related subjects in class when you're teaching a writing workshop, which is what you do, and you're encouraging people to write openly, and sex is a part of life and sexual thinking is a huge part of young people's lives, do you make that subject off-topic? Do you make that subject taboo for writing in class? How do you talk about it if it's not taboo for writing in class? Have you thought about that a lot?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this would have been - I graduated from Barnard in '72 and from Columbia in '75 - the MFA program. But I'm not just talking about school. I'm not just talking about school. I'm talking about men"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 20, "text": "Is that a relief to you", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have. I have no idea what other writing instructors do. But in fact, it turns out, in my experience, not to be a problem because the students do not write about sex. They are either too shy or afrai"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 21, "text": "as the teacher?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have. I have no idea what other writing instructors do. But in fact, it turns out, in my experience, not to be a problem because the students do not write about sex. They are either too shy or afrai"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 22, "text": "The story in \"The Friend\" - the narrator is a woman whose mentor from college, who was close to her age, became a dear friend. And he has just committed suicide. She's left grieving and wondering why, and she also inherits his dog. And it's not just, like, any dog. It's a 180-pound Great Dane. And she lives in a small, rent-controlled apartment in New York. And it's illegal, it's against the regulations to have a dog in that apartment. So she kind of violates the regulations, takes the dog kind of reluctantly and they become very close. And they're both grieving. The dog is grieving, too. But as you've said, you can't describe death to a dog. You can't explain death to a dog.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Barbara) You were his best friend."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 23, "text": "She walks the street with the dog. You know, she takes the dog on walks as, of course, you have to. Because the dog is so big, she feels like she's a spectacle", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's something that has struck me well before I started writing this book, how difficult that is really, because, you know, there the dog is at home. As far as the dog knows, everything is fin"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 24, "text": "when she's on the street with the dog. And everybody's, like, stopping and wanting to do a selfie or asking how much he eats or how much he defecates", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's something that has struck me well before I started writing this book, how difficult that is really, because, you know, there the dog is at home. As far as the dog knows, everything is fin"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 25, "text": ". And she's kind of - you know, I think she feels like, partly, her privacy is being invaded, but partly just, like, amused by the whole thing. But it connects to something larger that her friend who took his life used to say, which is that, you know, he used to, like, love to walk and felt like he did his best writing while he was walking and just kind of losing himself in his thoughts and in his surroundings. But he always thought that that would be harder for a woman to do because a woman always has to be on guard. Is this guy following me? Is this guy going to grope me? Is this guy going to attack me? What about that catcall? And so I'm wondering if you've thought about that from both directions, about, you know, the difficulties of sometimes losing yourself as a woman who has to be on guard when walking the streets and the difference when you have this, like, huge dog who everybody wants to stop and admire when you're walking.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's something that has struck me well before I started writing this book, how difficult that is really, because, you know, there the dog is at home. As far as the dog knows, everything is fin"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 26, "text": "That's a French word", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's true that I was writing about flanerie and the flaneur, who is an urban walker..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's true that I was writing about flanerie and the flaneur, who is an urban walker..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 28, "text": "And you've walked big dogs. You've had big dogs, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes - and the mentor's idea that, you know, can there really be such a thing as a flaneurs? Can a woman be a flaneur? - because real flanerie requires that you are able to lose yourself in an urban se"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 29, "text": "I'm guilty of being one of the people who say, how much does the dog eat?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've had - well, my family had an enormous Great Dane. And, you know, I was already out of the house by then, but I did walk him. And, you know, children would follow, and people would say things. But"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 30, "text": "And, wow, I could probably ride the dog, because I literally could probably ride the dog. I mean, I'm so short, I could...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 31, "text": "...I could really probably do it. I know people who won't get a pet after their beloved pet has died because they feel like they can't go through that grieving process again. And it reminds me of people who won't remarry because they can't bear the thought of losing a second spouse.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 32, "text": "Do you have pets now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I get a lot of emails from those people, too, a lot. You know, they have lost a pet. And it's been overwhelming to them. And very many of them say I don't know if I could get another one or if I "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 33, "text": "Because of the grief?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I don't. I had two cats, and they grew to be quite old. And they both died. And it was when the second one died that, again, I was one of those people who was so overwhelmed. And I have not been a"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 34, "text": "How did the cat die?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, largely because of that, just not wanting to go through all that again. But there was something about the way that cat died and the loss of it - in fact, I do write about that in the novel - that"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 35, "text": "Yeah, you never really know, do you, what a cat or a dog is thinking about...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she was elderly, and she became very ill. And then I took her to the vet, you know, who agreed that she should be put down because she was so - because she would have to have surgery. And at her"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 36, "text": "...Whether it's time to end their life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 37, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. And it was just a very overwhelming experience."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 38, "text": "I spoke with you in 1996.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sigrid Nunez speaking to Terry Gross in 2019. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2019 interview with Sigrid Nunez. She's the author of the novel \"The F"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 39, "text": "And one of the things you said is, I've never been married, and I'm not going to marry. And I said, how can you be so certain? And you said, well, there isn't anything I could have from a marriage that I don't really have. Do you still feel that way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 40, "text": "Because?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I never did marry, just as I said. And that isn't something that I've regretted. I think at the time, what I was referring to also was that I was with someone. I was in a relationship. We were l"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 41, "text": "I think it was in your first book that you wrote, time and time again, I discover that I have not completely let go of the notion that salvation will come in the form of a man.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't - I've just - I do not - I have not shared that desire and need that so many people seem to have. I just - I've - you know, when I was very young - when I was a teenager, I think I had, you kn"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 42, "text": "Do you still feel that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's true, too."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 43, "text": "...Way, or did you give that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that - I think..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 44, "text": "Did you give up that feeling - yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 45, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I've given that up. I've given that up, Terry. I don't feel that way anymore."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 46, "text": "Have you thought about the difference of being single in the latter part of your '60s, where you are now, compared to being single when you're younger?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 47, "text": "Why do you think it's easier?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it's - course, it's much easier when you're older, I think."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 48, "text": "Mm-hmm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To be single?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 49, "text": "OK, then the thought comes up - what about when you get older, if you're single then and your health fails or something?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's easier because - well, I guess it depends on what we mean. What I - I think it's very hard to be single when you're young because there's so many opportunities to not be single. You know,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 50, "text": "Or at least for the care.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, you mean, who's going to take you to the vet for the two injections?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 51, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 52, "text": "Did people used to warn you if you don't have children, you'll regret it when you're older?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, well, it's something that - you know, it's something that people just have to face. It's certainly something that, you know, I think about and worry about. But, you know, this is what - you kno"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 53, "text": "So is that a tradeoff you feel like you willingly made, or do you have any regrets about the choice that you made?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, and I think that that's very reasonable. I mean, as far as I'm concerned, missing having had children is enormous, is enormous. I don't - you know, I did what I had to do, or, you know, my life t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 54, "text": "I want to end with the quote that opens your book. It's a quote from Nicholson Baker. And the quote is, \"the question any novel is really trying to answer is, is life worth living?\" Now, that's a great quote to open a novel that has a lot to do with suicide, but does that also sum up your idea of what writers really are trying to write about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't. It's exactly that. I don't - no matter - in spite of the fact that I know exactly, you know, what a huge thing I missed, I also don't regret it because it was - you know, other women are diff"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5341486", "date": "2025-03-28", "guest": "Naomi Watts", "title": "Sigrid Nunez's 'The Friend' tells a story of friendship and despair", "question_index": 55, "text": "Sigrid Nunez, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I was so struck by that quote, and I found that quote - that's from his Paris Review interview. The book was finished when I found that, and I - you know, by chance, I just happened to read the i"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 0, "text": "Steve Carell, welcome to FRESH AIR. How would you describe Michael?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Jan) We're fine, Michael. We just need you to leave, please."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 1, "text": "You know, a lot of people who have worked in offices feel like they've worked with somebody like Michael Scott, but you've never worked in offices. It's just, you know, you're an actor. So, who do you draw on for the character? Are there teachers that you had or other people who you knew who were as clueless?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Michael Scott is someone with an enormous emotional blind spot. He is someone who truly does not understand how others perceive him. And if he did gain any knowledge, his head would explode. He would "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 2, "text": "That's really great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Primarily, yeah. It - I think for me, it stemmed mostly from various teachers that I had growing up, because many teachers that I've had - especially fifth, six, seventh grade - would be people who we"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 3, "text": "Mindy Kaling, Greg Daniels, welcome to FRESH AIR. One of the things that happens on \"The Office\" is that since so - since \"The Office\" is shot as if it were a documentary about this group of office workers, people are always talking to the camera. Like, looking away from the action and then talking to the camera in a confidential way, talking about what's really going through their mind. And they're often giving these kind of pained glances to the camera as Michael makes a fool of himself in the office. And I'm wondering if, like, during auditions, Greg, you asked everybody to roll their eyes and give pained looks because that's so much of what they have to do. Everybody's always so embarrassed on Michael's behalf and looking so uncomfortable because of what he's doing.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Steve Carell, star of NBC's \"The Office,\" speaking with Terry Gross in 2007. Now we hear from two of the writers who worked on the series - Greg Daniels, who wrote and directed episodes of NBC's \"The "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 4, "text": "She plays the receptionist, the character Pam.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we didn't have a normal audition process. Or we did have a normal audition process, but afterwards, we did screen tests. And we actually took three days and combined all the different finalist a"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 5, "text": "In the seasons that \"The Office\" has been on, are there ways that the characters have changed that you never would have expected? And are there ways that Michael has changed, the main character, that you didn't plan on, it just kind of evolved that way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know, he wants to be kind to the camera people as the, like, host of this party, and the party is \"The Office.\""}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know when you're on the subway and you see this, like, really weird-looking loser that's talking really too loudly, and they have, like, a girlfriend? To me, that was, like, a big change in, like,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yeah, and Jan, who you mentioned is Michael's supervisor, and he - even when they do maybe, maybe not have an overnight relationship, 'cause she's drunk and he's drunk, and he doesn't - they probably just fell asleep, we think. But he...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They are. Like, you see Dwight is loved by somebody, and Kelly has love in her own way. And, you know, all these people that you're like, that person's, like, so sort of terrible in their own way. Oh,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 8, "text": "Right. Except he thinks that probably much more happened, and he's always acting as if they had this, like, long, passionate fling", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...That a lot, and that is - that's what we think, too. We think that she complained about her divorce for hours and then fell asleep on..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...That a lot, and that is - that's what we think, too. We think that she complained about her divorce for hours and then fell asleep on..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 10, "text": "Just, like, another example of him getting just, like, everything wrong. It must be so much fun to write for a character like that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 11, "text": "Now, you've created this story about life in an office. Have you ever worked in an office?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As David Brent) Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 12, "text": "You did?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I worked in an office for eight years. That's where I got it all from. I was a middle manager. I went to management training seminars where those speakers talked rubbish for two days."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 14, "text": "Are any of the storylines in \"The Office\" based on things that have happened to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I worked in an office for seven or eight years."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 15, "text": "Why don't we hear that scene? In this scene, David Brent is role-playing with the guy who's running the seminar. And David Brent is supposed to be playing the customer, and the guy running the seminar is the hotel clerk.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, let me think. Let's see. Well, the - Episode 4 in Series 1 where we had the guy come in to train people. I remember the first training session I went to, and I remember they did role-play. And I r"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 16, "text": "David completely misses the point in that, but that's so typical of him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As David Brent) There is no 362 in this hotel. Sometimes, the complaints will be false. OK? Good."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 17, "text": "Now, later in this same seminar, David turns the discussion into basically a Q&A about himself. And then...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course, 'cause he wants to be top dog. He wants to be the center of attention. He couldn't - you know, he hires this guy, but then he wants to be in charge. So he's just a child. You know, it's his"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 18, "text": "And then he reveals he used to be in a band, and then he takes out his guitar, and he starts playing some songs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 19, "text": "Awful, exactly. In fact, let me play some of the songs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Awful."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 20, "text": "That's Ricky Gervais as David Brent in a scene from the British sitcom \"The Office,\" which is also now on DVD. Now, Ricky, I know you used to be in a band", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As David Brent, singing) Free love on the free love freeway. The love is free, and the freeway's long."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As David Brent, singing) Free love on the free love freeway. The love is free, and the freeway's long."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 22, "text": "Are any of these songs you used to do for real?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 23, "text": "Good.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no, no."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 24, "text": "I was really hoping you'd say that", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wrote those..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 25, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wrote those..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 26, "text": "The other great thing about this scene is he does all these horrible things that make you so uncomfortable when a bad performer is singing...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's just, like, shut up."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 27, "text": "...In a small room. He looks people in the eyes...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 28, "text": "...In a kind of dreamy way. And like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 29, "text": "Exactly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Excruciating, isn't it?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 30, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely excruciating. The white man overbite to show he's really..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 31, "text": "Yes, he bites his lip to show how sensitive he's being.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Getting into it."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 32, "text": "Now, as a musician yourself, is this something that you've done or that you've just...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, awful."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 33, "text": "OK, that's fine.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'll stop you there. Failed musician. Let's get it right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 34, "text": "But you've seen people be that way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Yeah. No, I hope I was never like that. And it was..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 35, "text": "So in your one-word answers, like, what did you say to the questions you were asked in the audition?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My very first audition for \"The Office,\" I had to sit in a chair, and the producer interviewed me in character. There was no script. He just said, we want you to act like Pam or your idea of Pam, and "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 36, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's funny. The casting director - before I went in, I had known her for a few years, and she had called me in for other jobs. And she gave me some coaching on the phone. What she said was, don'"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 37, "text": "So when you're giving one of your pain looks or one of your this-is-absurd looks to the camera, who's the cameraperson? Is there an actor behind there that you can kind of, like, interact with, or is it just, like, the camera with a cameraperson?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...In what was said."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 38, "text": "Now, how were you cast opposite John Krazinski? Did you have to do a scene together before you were both cast to make sure that there was chemistry between you? And for anyone who doesn't watch \"The Office,\" I should mention that he's one of the people who works in the office, and you had a long period of flirtation. But, you know, when \"The Office\" starts, you're engaged to somebody else. And even though things aren't working out between you two, you still feel like, you know, you're involved in this relationship and you can't get involved with the John Krazinski character of Jim. But eventually, you do get together, so there has to be this chemistry between you. So were you tested out together during the audition?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there's two different scenarios. When we're just shooting the show and it's a scene, the camera operator is this man named Randall Einhorn, and he's our director of photography. And we will look"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 39, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. When it came down to the end of the audition process, they took four Pams and four Jims and four Dwights and four Michaels, and they brought us into a real office. And they filmed us with a camer"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 40, "text": "Do you have a favorite example of one of the times when Michael, the Steve Carrell character, came up to your desk and did really bad shtick?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I don't think anyone could do it except for you. And when they called and told me that I got the job, I said, please tell me that John Krazinski is playing Jim. And they said, he is, and we're so "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 41, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, gosh. Well, my favorite Pam/Michael moment from the entire series happens in Season 1, actually. He comes up to my desk, and he wads up a piece of paper. And he goes to throw it into the trash can"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 42, "text": "Let me ask you to describe Dwight.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "John Krasinski speaking with Dave Davies in 2016. Coming up, we hear from Rainn Wilson, who played Dwight Schrute, Jim's nemesis on NBC's \"The Office.\" This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Rainn Wils"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 43, "text": "Well, you know, you mentioned that, you know, Greg Daniels told you that he has this, like, almost childish love of hierarchy. And at the beginning of \"The Office,\" Dwight is the most loyal lieutenant imaginable to Michael...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. That's a good one. Dwight is hard to put your finger on, and I've spent years trying to describe him in interviews. One of the things that Greg Daniels said to me early on - Greg said, Dwight has "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 44, "text": "...Who's the boss of this branch. But then he senses he can have that power. And it looks like Michael's going to leave, and he can become the new Michael. And then, you know, all bets are off. Like, you want that power for yourself.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 45, "text": "And you just become, like, such - the commander as opposed to the lieutenant. Was that a change in character for you when that change happened to Dwight?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 46, "text": "Well, I have to play a clip from \"The Office.\" This is a classic scene. It's \"Take Your Daughter To Work Day,\" and you're, like, at the head of what's almost like a little classroom. Like, all the daughters are sitting in chairs, and you're in front, reading to them and playing your recorder or flutophone.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it wasn't. I think that - and they're so canny, the writers on our show, 'cause they're always creating new textures for me to play as Dwight."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 47, "text": "Recorder.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Recorder."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 48, "text": "And Michael is at the door, watching. So here's the scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, part of my music nerd heritage."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 49, "text": "That's such a great scene", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As characters) I do."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 50, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As characters) I do."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 51, "text": "Oh, who's also a member of the cast.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Written by the great Mindy Kaling."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 52, "text": "And that was my guest, Rainn Wilson, in a scene from \"The Office.\" Your character, Dwight, is always so intense and so inappropriate, as he was in his choice of readings. You know, you auditioned for the part of Michael, of the boss of the office - right? - before...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 53, "text": "...Getting the part of Dwight. So what was your audition for the part of Michael like? This is the part that Steve Carell plays.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 54, "text": "And Ricky Gervais played the boss in the original...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They keep wanting to put it on the DVD of - my audition as Michael. I was terrible. It was awful. It was never meant to be. It was just one of those things that - I just basically did my Ricky Gervais"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 55, "text": "...British version. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In the English series."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 56, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And I knew I was hungering for Dwight, and I knew Dwight was the one that was right in my wheelhouse. I was like, oh, let me at this one. This is - I got to get this guy. And I remember there wa"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 57, "text": "Now, Jenna Fischer, who plays Pam, the receptionist on the show, was recently on our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I was like, oh, I want to say that. I want to say that line so bad. So my Dwight audition, needless to say, was a lot better than my Michael Scott audition got with them."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 58, "text": "Yes, she was so dull.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Horrible woman."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 59, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Isn't she awful?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 60, "text": "So I want to play you an excerpt of that interview in which she talked about you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 61, "text": "So here's the excerpt of the interview with Jenna Fischer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Uh-oh."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 62, "text": "Are there any scenes from \"The Office\" that were too funny to get through without laughing and you had to keep reshooting them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Uh-oh."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 63, "text": "So that's Jenna Fischer talking about you on \"The Office.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, so many. So many. It - you know, what happens is I seem to, every year, get tickled by a new actor in a way where I just - I cannot do a scene with them. And the first year was Rainn Wilson. You k"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 64, "text": "So how did you start doing that as Dwight's way of standing? And he also - am I wrong in saying he's often standing a little too close to the person he's talking to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 65, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, he's not so good at interpersonal boundaries."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5350960", "date": "2025-04-04", "guest": "Larry Wilmore", "title": "Marking 20 years of 'The Office,' with Steve Carell, Ricky Gervais and others", "question_index": 66, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that includes standing that way. I don't know, you know? It's just, like, you do - it's just what we do as actors, I think. You know, my haircut for Dwight was very important. It was very importan"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 0, "text": "Jean Smart, welcome to FRESH AIR. It's a pleasure to have you on the show. You're terrific in this, as you've been...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Deborah Vance) Oh, look who's talking. I just got a TED Talk about yours."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 1, "text": "Yeah, for so long. So, you know, you've done a lot of comedy, but this is the first time you've played a comic. Do you have any favorite jokes of the bad jokes that your character tells?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 2, "text": "'Cause they're both funny and bad at the same time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure, you know? I mean, I don't think of her jokes as bad necessarily. It's just that, you know, she's sort of got her stock-style jokes that she knows. She knows her audience really well. And she"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 4, "text": "Are there things you related to about the generational conflict in this? You know, 'cause, you know, the young comic who starts writing for your character thinks of herself as so, like, you know, cutting edge and a little transgressive. And she really has kind of contempt for your character 'cause it represents everything that she - that the younger comic doesn't want to be.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I love that joke."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 5, "text": "You've played, like, brassy, cynical, sarcastic women in comedies and in dramas. In Entertainment Weekly, you were described as the reigning Meryl Streep of tough broad types.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know, she - it's just sort of funny to watch them, you know, navigate this. They come from completely different worlds, or at least seemingly at first. And Hannah actually is a stand-up comic. S"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 6, "text": "So I want to play an example of that. And this is from your role in Fargo when you played the matriarch of a crime family that controls Fargo, and you've taken over from your husband after he had a debilitating stroke. Meanwhile, the Kansas City Mafia made an offer to take over your operation. And then, in this scene, you meet the gangster representing the Kansas City family, and you make a counteroffer, an offer for a partnership between their family and your crime family. So in this scene, you're laying out the terms of your deal and then warn him not to underestimate you. And the mobster from Kansas City is played by Brad Garrett. You speak first.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 7, "text": "You must have loved that speech when you read it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Floyd Gerhardt) No. My husband would have killed you where you stood the first time you met. So be glad you're talking to his wife."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 8, "text": "So I read that initially, when you got the part and the wardrobe came out", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I - oh, I did. That was the speech they gave you to audition with for Noah. And I said that tells me so much about this person."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 9, "text": "and the hairdresser came out that you looked at yourself in the mirror, and you actually burst into tears. What was the problem? What were you seeing in the mirror?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I - oh, I did. That was the speech they gave you to audition with for Noah. And I said that tells me so much about this person."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 10, "text": "Kate Winslet plays Mare Sheehan, who's a police detective trying to solve a murder. But there's a lot going on in her personal life. Her son died by suicide, leaving behind his young son who Mare is raising because the boy's mother has been in rehab. You're Mare's mother, and you've moved in with Mare to help her raise the grandson, your great-grandson. But you and Mare are afraid that you're about to lose custody because the boy's mother is getting out of rehab. You've been trying to prepare him for the likelihood he'll be returning to his mother. And that's made Mare very angry with you because she wants to keep custody. And let's hear a clip in which she's showing how angry she is that you're trying to prepare him to go back to his mother.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Jean Smart speaking to Terry Gross in 2021. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview with Jean Smart, who co-stars in the HBO Max series \"Hacks.\" S"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 11, "text": "Wow, that's - you're really good in this. How did you get the part?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Mare Sheehan) Understand me?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And I said, HBO? Kate Winslet? Unless I really hate the part..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 13, "text": "So \"Mare Of Easttown\" is set in Delaware County, Pennsylvania, just outside of Philadelphia. And Delaware County has some pretty wealthy neighborhoods and some working-class suburbs. You probably saw this or at least heard about it - that \"Saturday Night Live\" did a parody of the accents.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I'll say yes right now. But I love their relationship because, I mean, even though it's a bit dysfunctional, I hope that there is - that it comes across to the audience as they still - there is sti"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 14, "text": "Did you see it - of the accents of \"Mare Of Easttown\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 15, "text": "Yeah. And she's the one who got the brunt of the", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 16, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 17, "text": "...Of the satire in this. And the premise of the show is that instead of saying murder and daughter because of the perhaps overly exaggerated Philadelphia accents, it's like, mu-mu-mu (ph) - I can't even do it right - mordor (ph) and doorter (ph). Yeah, you do it. You do it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was hilarious."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 18, "text": "So did you have, like, an accent coach?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know quite where they were going with some of it, but yes, they called it murder dirter (ph) - murder daughter. But yes, like, the - one of the examples of that accent is the way they say wate"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 19, "text": "So I'm going to squeeze in one more clip. This is from \"Frasier.\" This is the role that you won two Emmys for, and you're hilarious in this. So for people who don't know the sitcom \"Frasier,\" Frasier is a psychiatrist who has a radio advice call-in show. And you played Lana Lenley, who was one of the most popular and pretty girls in high school, and Frasier had a crush on you. And now years later, you run into each other at a cafe, and you're a fan of his radio show. You hit it off, and you end up spending the night together. And this is, like, Frasier's high school dream come true.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". What you're supposed to be thinking about it - what your character's supposed to be thinking about. That's the hard part of doing an accent, but it's always fun to do accents."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 20, "text": "And in the morning, you wake up in his bed. You still have a glass of wine on the night table next to you, which you use in the scene I'm about to play to swallow some pills later in the scene. You'll hear a reference to that, but you won't be able to see it. And so you wake up in the morning together. Things are still dreamy between the two of you until - OK, here is the scene. You speak first.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 21, "text": "Oh, you're so good in that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Lana Gardner) Oh, this is nice."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 22, "text": "What do you think about when you hear that back?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Lana Gardner) Oh, this is nice."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 23, "text": "Did it say in the script, get louder every time you say put your brother on? Or was that something you just figured out you should do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I was so much fun. That was the first episode I did as that character, and it was my favorite one."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 24, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 25, "text": "You were so good in that scene, they brought you back for another season, and that was the second season that - you won an Emmy for that role. So you grew up in Seattle - right? - where \"Frasier\" was set. How did you get interested in acting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What - oh, dear. OK, you know? People still come up and say, put your brother on the phone."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 26, "text": "When you were getting started, what were some of your day jobs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But he liked me. And so I really got bitten by the bug. So I told my parents that I wanted to major in theater in college, and my mother was not too happy with me. But after I started doing some plays"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 27, "text": "Uh-huh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You mean after I got out of college?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 28, "text": "You never - you were able to make a living acting right from the start?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm embarrassed to say I've never had another day job."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 29, "text": "How'd you do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It wasn't much of a living, but yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 30, "text": "Did you go through any fallow periods where you thought, I'm never going to get a role again?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there's a lot of professional theater in Seattle. And between Seattle and the Oregon Shakespeare Festival in Ashland, Oregon, where I would do summers, I managed to just get by, you know? You'd "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 31, "text": "Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The only time that springs to mind that that happened, ironically, was after \"Fargo.\" I, you know, got great reviews. The show was a big hit. I think I won the Critics' Choice award for that role - an"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 32, "text": "OK, that scene was set at a fraternity party on the campus. Hannah Einbinder, welcome to FRESH AIR. How did you get the part on \"Hacks\" with no previous acting experience?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Ava Daniels) Yes, and the jokes were hurtful. Both things can be true. You get to be rich and famous for making jokes, and people are allowed to have their reactions to them. I mean, why not use y"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 33, "text": "You've done sketch comedy. You did a great set on the Stephen Colbert show right before the pandemic lockdown. So how did you pull that off?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 34, "text": "So you punched up the script you were given?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah, I went in with the rest of the - with all the eligible ladies in the land. I went into a casting office, like, first round, early days on it. And I - you know, what ultimately did it in th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 35, "text": "What was the scene that you were given to audition? And did they keep the jokes that you wrote in the actual TV series?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, a perfect script that needed no punch-up, might I add. But I did just, you know - 'cause it was so funny. And it - when something is such a quality piece of work, for me, it's so easy to kind of"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 36, "text": "So can you give an example of a joke you wrote that they kept?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They did. And the audition scenes were the first scene where we meet my character in her manager Jimmy's office. And she's, you know, on the verge, talking about wanting to jump out the window, and sh"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 37, "text": "And just to set it up, you both have the same agent. It's the son of the person who was originally Jean Smart's agent.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In the audition scene, the one between Jean and I."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 38, "text": "The older agent died. His son represents your character and Smart's character. And he kind of finagles things to get you to go to Jean Smart's house to audition, but he never tells Jean Smart that. So he thinks it could get off to a terrible start.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 39, "text": "Right. OK. That's funny.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I added just some color to the initial interview scene between Ava and Deborah. I added that Ava - the line was that she flew all the way here, and I added, on Spirit..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 40, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Airlines."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 41, "text": "'Cause you're talking about the effort you went to to get here, and now she's just rejecting you without even talking to you yet.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I think I..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 42, "text": "Did you learn a lot about acting by working with Jean Smart?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. There was also a line. I said, who's your decorator, Melania Trump? 'Cause she has this sort of very baroque style going on, sort of Versace palace vibes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 43, "text": "Was it mostly by example, or did she give you actual tips?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Everything."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 44, "text": "So, you know, your mother is Laraine Newman, one of the original cast members of \"Saturday Night Live.\" When you were growing up, was being funny something that was really prized or rewarded by your parents?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was very much by example. She's really so gifted naturally and also technically, you know, when it comes to the very, you know, meticulous blocking work and continuity. And, you know, I picked up t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 45, "text": "Do you feel like you learned how to take something really awful that happened to you and tell a funny story about it - like, turn, like, bad things into comedy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Certainly, 100%. Yeah. I think it was the main currency in our home. And, you know, my parents are both tough laughs, so I had to do a lot to get what I wanted - you know? - to do, like, a lot to get "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 46, "text": "It could be", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I think that might just be a product of being Jewish. But, yeah, it's also..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5359015", "date": "2025-04-11", "guest": "Jean Smart", "title": "'Hacks' stars Jean Smart, Hannah Einbinder and Paul W. Downs reflect on their Max hit", "question_index": 47, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I think that might just be a product of being Jewish. But, yeah, it's also..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-04-18", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "Journalist Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 0, "text": "Joy Reid, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli. \"How To Be A Civil Rights Widow\" is one chapter title in a book by Joy Reid, the former MSNBC evening show host. The widow is Myrlie Evers. Her husband was Medg"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-04-18", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "Journalist Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 1, "text": "It's a pleasure to have you here. You think - and rightfully so, I think - that Medgar Evers hasn't really gotten the recognition he deserves as an important figure in the Civil Rights Movement. I think he's more famous for getting assassinated than for the work he actually did.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you Terry, it is so wonderful to be here."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-04-18", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "Journalist Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 2, "text": "Give us an overview of the work that he did.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's true. I think that's true. And, you know, I think part of that is because of the just momentous year in which he was murdered, 1963. So many things happened in 1963 that kind of overwhelmed kno"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-04-18", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "Journalist Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 3, "text": "And then there's James Meredith. And Medgar Evers had applied to Ole Miss, the University of Mississippi. And, of course, he was denied admission because he was Black. They were not accepting Black students. So when James Meredith applied, testing desegregation, it was Medgar Evers who went right to his support. What did he do to help Meredith get in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So you start with Emmett Till, at the time, most high-profile lynching that had taken place in America. This was a 14-year-old boy who had family in Mississippi, had roots in Mississippi, but lived in"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-04-18", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "Journalist Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, James Meredith actually made the call to the NAACP to Thurgood Marshall from Medgar and Myrlie Evers' home. So he calls and, you know, it is Medgar that gets him representation from the NAACP af"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-04-18", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "Journalist Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 5, "text": "Medgar Evers was the Mississippi field secretary for the NAACP, but his approach often diverged from the organizations. The NAACP under Roy Wilkins defined its work as being work through the courts. But Evers didn't always want to work through the - I mean, he appreciated that the work was being done in the courts, but he thought more was needed. What were the kind of protests that he helped organize?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he talks James Meredith down, which was not easy to do. But his brother Charles was similar in, like, temperament. So he knew how to deal with someone like him. And he manages to call back and get"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-04-18", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "Journalist Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 6, "text": "So a lot of people in Mississippi were too afraid to register for the NAACP or to, you know, call out racism. But the people who were willing to do that were the high school students and the college students. And so Medgar Evers wanted to work with them. What did the NAACP say to that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, and, you know, in addition to being the field secretary, he was actually the first field secretary. They created the position for him as, in part, a way to discourage him from reapplying to Ole "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-04-18", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "Journalist Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 7, "text": "I think it's interesting the way you get to some divisions within the civil rights movement at the time, not only between Evers and the NAACP, but Evers and groups like the Student Nonviolent Coordinating Committee and CORE, the Congress on Racial Equality - groups that were coming down to Mississippi. He was concerned about the Freedom Riders coming down to Mississippi because he thought it would jeopardize the work that Mississippi civil rights workers and activists were already doing. What was he worried about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", quite simply. They said this is not what we want. And Medgar was threatened with being fired multiple times because he believed that the courage that was needed was found in the youth. It was young "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-04-18", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "Journalist Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 8, "text": "Expand on that. What happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think part of it was that he had this fundamental belief that people needed to fight for liberation for themselves. They didn't need the courage imported in from the North, and that only when "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-04-18", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "Journalist Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 9, "text": "On the other hand, like, the Freedom Rides brought so much national attention to what was happening in the South.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Bob Moses and other activists came down. Of course, Bob Moses was this brilliant activist from New York and a math genius. And he comes down, and he winds up working in The Delta, actually using so"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-04-18", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "Journalist Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 10, "text": "Medgar Evers fought in World War II. He was actually on Omaha Beach on D-Day. After he returned home, how did he see the U.S., and in particular Mississippi, differently than he'd seen it before?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Joy Reid speaking with Terry Gross last year. Her book about Medgar and Myrlie Evers is called \"Medgar And Myrlie.\" More after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-04-18", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "Journalist Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 11, "text": "I want to get to an early part of his life story when he is exposed to a lynching of his father's friend, and I think this is a real, like, significant story. Tell us what happened.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, what's fascinating about Medgar Evers and all of those Black men who fought in World War I and World War II is that when they returned, they had traveled more widely than most white Am"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-04-18", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "Journalist Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 12, "text": "And it was his father who collected the body and brought him to the funeral home.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the Evers family knew a man named Mr. Tingle who lived in town, in the town of Decatur. And when Medgar was either 7 or 11, depending on whether he or Charles Evers, his brother, who was a very ost"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-04-18", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "Journalist Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 13, "text": "Let's talk about how Medgar and Myrlie first met. They both went to the historically Black college Alcorn A&M, which later became Alcorn State University. He was 25 because he had already come back from the war, and she was 17. So that, at the time, seemed like a very big age difference. They were in different places in terms of fighting for equality. Describe her background.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. His father's uncle had a funeral home. And so his father - who they called Crazy Jim because he was one of the few Blacks who did not bow down to white people, which made white people think he wa"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-04-18", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "Journalist Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 14, "text": "When she and Medgar Evers started seeing each other, he said, you're going to be the mother of my children. I'm going to shape you into the woman I want you to be. That made me very uncomfortable. I don't like it when men decide they want to be involved with women who they can mentor 'cause that ends up being a very unequal relationship. You don't want to be your boyfriend or your husband's student. You want to be their equal. So what was your reaction when you heard that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Myrlie Evers - Myrlie Louise Beasley, was her original last name - she grew up in Vicksburg, Mississippi, which was a rural town, obviously very segregated, just like all of Mississippi. And she wa"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-04-18", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "Journalist Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 15, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's funny because Myrlie's reaction was, you got a huge job ahead of you, buddy. She was actually angry..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-04-18", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "Journalist Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 16, "text": "And she said, we argued like crazy. They fought over his work. What were her objections?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...That he said that. It made her angry, and he would say things all the time that would annoy her, right? Like, he was challenging to her in one sense, is that - you know, he would talk to her about "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-04-18", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "Journalist Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 17, "text": "One of the fights Medgar and Myrlie had was over dinner guests because he was always bringing home people from the NAACP and sometimes celebrities like Lena Horne, and she was expected to cook an extra dinner for them. And she said, we do not have the money for this. We're struggling. And he accused her of not knowing how to manage the money well, which just infuriated her 'cause she was very, very careful with money. And is this the time that they actually came to blows?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University. Let's get back to Terry's 2024 interview with former MSNBC host Joy Reid. Her book \"Medgar And Myrlie\" is a"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-04-18", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "Journalist Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 18, "text": "One day or night - I forget which it was - when Medgar was working, Myrlie was at home with the children, and the house was firebombed. A Molotov cocktail was thrown through the window. She was pregnant at the time. How did she respond when she realized what was happening and the house started to catch on fire?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. This is one of the most sort of, you know, striking and volatile sort of parts of their marriage. So at one point, she says to him, we're poor. We don't have the money to do this. And he a"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-04-18", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "Journalist Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 19, "text": "When President Kennedy gave a speech asking Congress to enact what basically became the Civil Rights Act of 1964 after Kennedy's assassination - so when Kennedy gave this speech, you know, asking Congress to enact legislation giving all Americans the right to be served in facilities that were open to the public and to seek greater protection for the right to vote and more fully enforce the Supreme Court's ruling to desegregate the schools, that just, like, flared up racist attacks in the South. And so it was a win for Medgar Evers and the movement, but it also increased the threats, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Myrlie, you know, is starting to doze off. She hears this crash and goes out and sees fire on her front lawn. Obviously, she's incredibly startled. And there had been these cars that would pass "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-04-18", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "Journalist Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 20, "text": "The assassination happened one night while Myrlie and the children were home, they were in bed. She was expecting her husband. She hears this loud gunshot. She - you know, she recognizes this is trouble, you know, runs to the door and finds her husband's body at the threshold of the door. And he's bleeding, and it looks like he's bleeding out, which he was. Tell us more about what you know about that night.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. And, you know, the Klan absolutely sent a message in assassinating Medgar Evers literally hours after that speech. The thing that President Kennedy said that I think stung the racist South"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-04-18", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "Journalist Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 21, "text": "There was a really large funeral procession after he died, and there was nearly a police riot because there were so many people. Would you describe that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, the children were - they got to stay up. You know, the three Evers children. Well, Van was a baby. He was only 3. But the two older children were allowed to sit up and watch President "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-04-18", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "Journalist Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 22, "text": "They were prohibited from singing at this funeral procession.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it was a tremendous outpouring. You know, some 5,000 people came, and they packed into the auditorium, the space where they usually did their mass meetings, but it was over capacity. It was "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-04-18", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "Journalist Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 23, "text": "You have a whole chapter called \"The Rules For A Civil Rights Widow.\" What were the, quote, \"rules\" she had to learn or play by or create 'cause she was, like, the first famous civil rights widow?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview from last year with Joy Reid, host of the former MSNBC show \"The ReidOut.\" Her book \"Medgar And Myrlie,\" which is now out in paperback, is about "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-04-18", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "Journalist Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 24, "text": "She both became famous, you know, very quickly because of the assassination and also very depressed. It's a difficult combination to deal with, depression and fame at the same time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So Myrlie Evers, you know, had to write this playbook for herself because Medgar Evers was assassinated two years before Malcolm X and five years before Dr. King. So there really wasn't another"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-04-18", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "Journalist Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 25, "text": "And she's in - of course, in mourning.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-04-18", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "Journalist Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 26, "text": "But she does kind of overcome the depression. She becomes an activist. She becomes an in-demand public speaker. Eventually, she becomes the board chair of the NAACP. And she gets a lot of accolades. She's, like, Woman of the Year in Ms. Magazine in 1998, one of the hundred most fascinating Black women of the 20th century in Ebony in 1998. What came first for you - wanting to write a book about the Evers or meeting Myrlie Evers and deciding, oh, I should write a book?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. And, you know, living in that house made it worse - right? - because, you know, that house had been designed for security. It was - it's the only house on this block that used to be called"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-04-18", "guest": "Joy-Ann Reid", "title": "Journalist Joy-Ann Reid revisits the legacy and marriage of Medgar and Myrlie Evers", "question_index": 27, "text": "Joy Reid, it's been great to talk with you. Congratulations on your new book, and thank you so much for coming to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Meeting Myrlie Evers, Myrlie Evers-Williams now. She did fall in love again, but Medgar Evers was clearly the love of her life. And that's what she told me that actually was the impetus for this book."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5374374", "date": "2025-04-25", "guest": "Merle Haggard", "title": "Merle Haggard reflects on hopping freight trains and becoming a musician", "question_index": 0, "text": "Did you hop freights when you were young?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) All around the water tank, waiting for a train - a thousand miles away from home, sleeping in the rain. I walked up to a brakeman to give him a line of talk. He says, if you've got money, I'"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5374374", "date": "2025-04-25", "guest": "Merle Haggard", "title": "Merle Haggard reflects on hopping freight trains and becoming a musician", "question_index": 1, "text": "We would you go?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, sure did."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5374374", "date": "2025-04-25", "guest": "Merle Haggard", "title": "Merle Haggard reflects on hopping freight trains and becoming a musician", "question_index": 2, "text": "Was it hard to learn how to hop a freight?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I lived in an oil community called Oildale, and there was a daily train that went into the oil fields. And it was a steam train back in those days. And I actually grew up every evening, you know"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5374374", "date": "2025-04-25", "guest": "Merle Haggard", "title": "Merle Haggard reflects on hopping freight trains and becoming a musician", "question_index": 3, "text": "What's the worst or the most surprising experience that you had on a freight train?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I learned that probably - I think, probably the first time I ever jumped on that old oil tanker was probably - I was about about 5 years old. My mother would have died if she had known I'd been up"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5374374", "date": "2025-04-25", "guest": "Merle Haggard", "title": "Merle Haggard reflects on hopping freight trains and becoming a musician", "question_index": 4, "text": "Gee, it sounds awful. Did you have frostbite?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The worst? There was a lot of bad experiences. I got on a freight in Oregon one time, and it was leaving out of Eugene, and it went up into the into the Cascades into a snowstorm. And I was in - trave"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5374374", "date": "2025-04-25", "guest": "Merle Haggard", "title": "Merle Haggard reflects on hopping freight trains and becoming a musician", "question_index": 5, "text": "Were there ever traveling musicians on the trains, and did you feel you learned anything about a musician's life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Somehow or another, somebody watched out for me. I didn't get anything like that."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5374374", "date": "2025-04-25", "guest": "Merle Haggard", "title": "Merle Haggard reflects on hopping freight trains and becoming a musician", "question_index": 6, "text": "Merle Haggard, is this song autobiographical?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) The first thing I remember knowing was a lonesome whistle blowing and a young'un's dream of growing up to ride on a freight train leaving town, not knowing where I'm bound. And no one can ch"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5374374", "date": "2025-04-25", "guest": "Merle Haggard", "title": "Merle Haggard reflects on hopping freight trains and becoming a musician", "question_index": 7, "text": "Your father died when you were 9. Is that right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it really is very close, at least. There's some things we fudged on slightly to make it rhyme, but majority of it - I'd say 97% of it's pretty accurate, I guess."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5374374", "date": "2025-04-25", "guest": "Merle Haggard", "title": "Merle Haggard reflects on hopping freight trains and becoming a musician", "question_index": 8, "text": "So your mother had to raise you alone after that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nine, right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5374374", "date": "2025-04-25", "guest": "Merle Haggard", "title": "Merle Haggard reflects on hopping freight trains and becoming a musician", "question_index": 9, "text": "I think you were 14 when your mother put you in a juvenile home.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She - yeah. And I was, to say the least, probably the most incorrigible child you could think of. I was just - I was already on the way to prison before I realized it, actually. I was just - I was rea"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5374374", "date": "2025-04-25", "guest": "Merle Haggard", "title": "Merle Haggard reflects on hopping freight trains and becoming a musician", "question_index": 10, "text": "How would you escape from reform school and youth institutions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, she didn't put me in a juvenile home. They - the authorities put me in there for truancy, for not going to school. And that - they gave me six months in, like, a road camp situation, and I ran off"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5374374", "date": "2025-04-25", "guest": "Merle Haggard", "title": "Merle Haggard reflects on hopping freight trains and becoming a musician", "question_index": 11, "text": "No - was there an outlaw mystique that you wanted to have?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there was different institutions and different methods. There was - some of them were minimum security. Some were maximum security, and some of them were kid joints, and some of them were adult "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5374374", "date": "2025-04-25", "guest": "Merle Haggard", "title": "Merle Haggard reflects on hopping freight trains and becoming a musician", "question_index": 12, "text": "So what was your most ingenious escape?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess. I don't know. I was - you know, I admired people like Jesse James, you know, along with a lot of other kids. But I guess I took it too far, you know?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5374374", "date": "2025-04-25", "guest": "Merle Haggard", "title": "Merle Haggard reflects on hopping freight trains and becoming a musician", "question_index": 13, "text": "Was that a real sobering experience for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Probably the one that was the most ingenious is - was one that I didn't actually go on. I was - San Quentin. I was all set to go with the only completely successful escape out of San Quentin, I think,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5374374", "date": "2025-04-25", "guest": "Merle Haggard", "title": "Merle Haggard reflects on hopping freight trains and becoming a musician", "question_index": 14, "text": "What did you say to your mother when you changed your life around?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I've had a lot of those things in my life. And, you know, those are the sort of things that a guy, unknowingly, like myself - I guess I was gathering up meat for songs, you know? I don't know wh"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5374374", "date": "2025-04-25", "guest": "Merle Haggard", "title": "Merle Haggard reflects on hopping freight trains and becoming a musician", "question_index": 15, "text": "You were on death row?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was just obvious. I mean, there was no - I don't think there was ever any time that anybody in my family was worried about me staying with this. It was just the way that - you know, some people gro"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5374374", "date": "2025-04-25", "guest": "Merle Haggard", "title": "Merle Haggard reflects on hopping freight trains and becoming a musician", "question_index": 16, "text": "How were you lucky enough to get out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I was making some beer up there, and I got too much of my own beer and got drunk in the yard and got arrested. It's hard to get arrested in San Quentin, but I did. And they sent me to what was known"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5374374", "date": "2025-04-25", "guest": "Merle Haggard", "title": "Merle Haggard reflects on hopping freight trains and becoming a musician", "question_index": 17, "text": "Back in the days when you were in prison, was music a big part of your life then? Were you singing, playing, writing songs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I went back down on the yard and went down and asked for the roughest job in the penitentiary, which was a textile mill. And went down and just started building my reputation, you know? Just sta"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5374374", "date": "2025-04-25", "guest": "Merle Haggard", "title": "Merle Haggard reflects on hopping freight trains and becoming a musician", "question_index": 18, "text": "Did your musical ability have anything to do with people noticing you in prison and thinking that you could make it when you got out? I mean, did that help you at all in the war in your eyes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. I was already into doing that. I really didn't - I don't think - believe that I sincerely had a future in it. I think I was just kind of like doing what I thought was probably a waste of t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5374374", "date": "2025-04-25", "guest": "Merle Haggard", "title": "Merle Haggard reflects on hopping freight trains and becoming a musician", "question_index": 19, "text": "Tell us a story - how you got your first guitar.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University. Let's continue with Terry's 1995 interview with country music singer, songwriter and guitarist Merle Haggar"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5374374", "date": "2025-04-25", "guest": "Merle Haggard", "title": "Merle Haggard reflects on hopping freight trains and becoming a musician", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yeah, or how you started to play guitar.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My first guitar."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5374374", "date": "2025-04-25", "guest": "Merle Haggard", "title": "Merle Haggard reflects on hopping freight trains and becoming a musician", "question_index": 21, "text": "Whose ever's it was", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5374374", "date": "2025-04-25", "guest": "Merle Haggard", "title": "Merle Haggard reflects on hopping freight trains and becoming a musician", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5374374", "date": "2025-04-25", "guest": "Merle Haggard", "title": "Merle Haggard reflects on hopping freight trains and becoming a musician", "question_index": 23, "text": "I imagine when you first got the guitar, you were playing songs that you heard on the radio. How did you start writing songs yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have an older brother named Lowell, and Lowell had a service station at the time. And there was a guy who came in and wanted a couple of dollars' worth of gas and didn't have no money, and he left a"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5374374", "date": "2025-04-25", "guest": "Merle Haggard", "title": "Merle Haggard reflects on hopping freight trains and becoming a musician", "question_index": 24, "text": "When you started writing songs, did you realize that you could write autobiographical songs from your own life, or did you think you had to copy other people's songs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I - about the same time that I discovered Jimmie Rodgers - I was about 12 years old - I discovered Hank Williams. And I remember seeing on the yellow MGM records there was a - the artist's name."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5374374", "date": "2025-04-25", "guest": "Merle Haggard", "title": "Merle Haggard reflects on hopping freight trains and becoming a musician", "question_index": 25, "text": "Do you remember the first one that you felt, this is worth keeping?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I really didn't realize what method to take at first. I must have wrote maybe 1,500 songs that weren't any good. Or at least I - you know, I never kept them. And finally, with a lot of help and "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5374374", "date": "2025-04-25", "guest": "Merle Haggard", "title": "Merle Haggard reflects on hopping freight trains and becoming a musician", "question_index": 26, "text": "Could you sing a couple of bars of it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It was sort of a rock and roll song, a Elvis-type rock and roll thing. It called \"If You Want To Be My Woman.\" And Glen Campbell opened his shows with it for years, and I still do the song. And "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5374374", "date": "2025-04-25", "guest": "Merle Haggard", "title": "Merle Haggard reflects on hopping freight trains and becoming a musician", "question_index": 27, "text": "Now, during all the years that you were in and out of prisons and reform schools, did you ever think I can make a living with music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You like riding in the country in my Cadillac. And you keep - I keep pushing - you keep pushing me back. Something about, (vocalizing) all the money that I earned, but you refused to give me"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5374374", "date": "2025-04-25", "guest": "Merle Haggard", "title": "Merle Haggard reflects on hopping freight trains and becoming a musician", "question_index": 28, "text": "So what made you think, well, I can make a living out of this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I - very best I counted on extra money, as I was saying - you know, like - you know, maybe a hobby. You know, I figured I was going to have to have some of the means of employment, you know, or su"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5374374", "date": "2025-04-25", "guest": "Merle Haggard", "title": "Merle Haggard reflects on hopping freight trains and becoming a musician", "question_index": 29, "text": "Was it hard for you to adjust to success and stardom, having come from poverty and, you know, having lived in prison off and on for so many years? I think it's hard for a lot of people to adjust to that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I - when I came out of the penitentiary, I went to work for my brother digging ditches and wiring houses. We had - he had electrical company - Hagg Electric (ph) - and he was paying me $80 a wee"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382570", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "George Clooney says the press has a duty to 'always question authority'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. George Clooney was just nominated for a Tony. He's making his Broadway debut in \"Good Night, And Good Luck.\" It's adapted from the 2005 film of the same name, which he directed, cowrote and costarred in. In the Broadway production, he stars as journalist Edward R. Murrow, a different role than the one he played in the film. The story is about how Murrow challenged Senator Joe McCarthy's tactic of smearing people by accusing them of being communists or associating with communists. At the time, Murrow was hosting the CBS TV news program \"See It Now.\" Murrow and his crew decided to do a program about Lieutenant Milo Radulovich, a U.S. Air Force reservist who was kicked out for being a security risk without being told what the charges were after he refused to denounce his father and sister who were accused of being communists. In this scene from the movie, two Air Force colonels are pressuring Murrow's producer, Fred Friendly, to cancel the broadcast. Friendly is played by George Clooney.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382570", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "George Clooney says the press has a duty to 'always question authority'", "question_index": 1, "text": "George Clooney in a scene from his 2005 film \"Good Night, And Good Luck.\" The film was nominated for six Academy Awards, including Best Picture, Best Director and Best Actor for David Strathairn who played Murrow, the role now played by Clooney on Broadway. Clooney has starred in such films as \"Oceans 11,\" Syriana,\" \"Michael Clayton,\" \"The Descendants,\" \"O Brother, Where Art Thou?\" and \"Hail, Caesar!\" He first became famous for his role on the medical series \"ER.\" His father is the broadcast journalist Nick Clooney, who's also a former movie host on the cable channel AMC. Here's the interview I recorded with Clooney in 2005 when the film \"Good Night, And Good Luck\" was released.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Fred Friendly) Who are the people? Are they elected? Are they appointed? Do they have an axe to grind? Is it you, Sir?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382570", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "George Clooney says the press has a duty to 'always question authority'", "question_index": 2, "text": "George Clooney, welcome to FRESH AIR. What did Edward R. Murrow mean to you when you were growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Fred Friendly) Who are the people? Are they elected? Are they appointed? Do they have an axe to grind? Is it you, Sir?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382570", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "George Clooney says the press has a duty to 'always question authority'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Now, in the movie, you don't have an actor playing McCarthy. The only time we see McCarthy is through his actual videotapes - through his television appearances...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My father was an anchor man, and broadcast journalism was a big part of our lives growing up. I spent most of my life as a small child on the floor of WKRC newsroom watching my father put news shows t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382570", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "George Clooney says the press has a duty to 'always question authority'", "question_index": 4, "text": "...Such as, you know, the hearings and the video tape that was made for the Edward R. Murrow \"See It Now\" broadcast. Why did you choose to have him play himself instead of having an actor portray him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382570", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "George Clooney says the press has a duty to 'always question authority'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Now, as an actor and director, talk a little bit about how Murrow looks on TV compared to how McCarthy looks on TV.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In the actual story - and we were - we researched everything. I had to treat this like a journalist. I talked to my father about this, and he said, look, if you get anything wrong, you'll be marginali"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382570", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "George Clooney says the press has a duty to 'always question authority'", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yeah. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's sort of the beauty of it. It's - in a way, the other one of those versions would be Kennedy/Nixon debate..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382570", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "George Clooney says the press has a duty to 'always question authority'", "question_index": 7, "text": "He's drunk?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know, where the simple truth was McCarthy was pretty good at a 30-second soundbite where he could yell and scare people and talk about death and bombs and things like that. But he wasn't handso"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382570", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "George Clooney says the press has a duty to 'always question authority'", "question_index": 8, "text": "The film is so much about faces. You know, the film is shot in pretty high contrast, black and white, and there's so many close-ups of faces because it all takes place, basically, in the office and in the studio. And the faces are so interesting to look at. They're mostly - you know, mostly middle-aged and slightly younger than that and slightly older than that men, who are kind of creased and who've lived and who haven't had plastic surgery...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Rebuttal - oh, yeah, very drunk. When you see the rebuttal, it's embarrassing. I mean, it's the most unprofessional thing you've ever seen. So, it was an interesting - the moment that that happened"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382570", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "George Clooney says the press has a duty to 'always question authority'", "question_index": 9, "text": "...And it's just really wonderful to see these faces.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382570", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "George Clooney says the press has a duty to 'always question authority'", "question_index": 10, "text": "You are one of the, quote, \"Hollywood liberals\" who is sometimes attacked by the right. Do you find it amusing when you are targeted by the right and singled out for criticism because you're a, quote, \"Hollywood liberal,\" or is it disturbing to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the interesting thing to me was, even in the film, the score I wanted to be silence. Silence was how I would score the film. And the way you do that is by spending time on people's faces becau"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382570", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "George Clooney says the press has a duty to 'always question authority'", "question_index": 11, "text": "When you were growing up, your father was on TV. He had his own show. He was a news anchor. Did your father seem like a different person on camera and off?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no, you know, look, if you're going to stick your head out and stick your neck out, you're going to have to take some hits. I don't think anybody in their life has ever accomplished anything tha"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382570", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "George Clooney says the press has a duty to 'always question authority'", "question_index": 12, "text": "What would he do when he made a scene?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no, not really. My father's - I think one of his great qualities is that integrity has been sort of the thing that has always lasted and has lasted into his - well into his 70s. He's been the "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382570", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "George Clooney says the press has a duty to 'always question authority'", "question_index": 13, "text": "We'll hear more of my 2005 interview with George Clooney after a break. He's now on Broadway, portraying Edward R. Murrow in his stage adaptation of his 2005 movie \"Good Night, And Good Luck.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, he'd get up and say, you know, you're an idiot, and, how could you say something like that, and, you know, are you from the 1500s, and, you know, he would make a big scene. And I, at times, wished"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382570", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "George Clooney says the press has a duty to 'always question authority'", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with George Clooney. He's now on Broadway, starring as Edward R. Murrow in his stage adaptation of his 2005 film \"Good Night, And Good Luck.\" Murrow was the CBS TV news journalist who challenged Senator Joe McCarthy's tactic of smearing people by accusing them of being communists or associating with communists. We recorded this interview in 2005, when the film was released.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, he'd get up and say, you know, you're an idiot, and, how could you say something like that, and, you know, are you from the 1500s, and, you know, he would make a big scene. And I, at times, wished"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382570", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "George Clooney says the press has a duty to 'always question authority'", "question_index": 15, "text": "You grew up on a - well, your grandparents had a tobacco farm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, he'd get up and say, you know, you're an idiot, and, how could you say something like that, and, you know, are you from the 1500s, and, you know, he would make a big scene. And I, at times, wished"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382570", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "George Clooney says the press has a duty to 'always question authority'", "question_index": 16, "text": "So were you near that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382570", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "George Clooney says the press has a duty to 'always question authority'", "question_index": 17, "text": "There's a lot of cigarette smoke in your movie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I worked it for years. That's how you made your money in the summer when you were a kid. You know, you start by - you're topping it, and then you're chopping it and cutting it and housing it and strip"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382570", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "George Clooney says the press has a duty to 'always question authority'", "question_index": 18, "text": "And Edward R. Murrow died of lung cancer. He was quite a smoker. It's just amazing to see him smoking on camera or even smoking in the hallway of the office. You just can't - you can't do that anymore.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382570", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "George Clooney says the press has a duty to 'always question authority'", "question_index": 19, "text": "Did you have to work hard to get the actors to inhale?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You couldn't - yeah, we were the only set that had people outside the sound stage not smoking."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382570", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "George Clooney says the press has a duty to 'always question authority'", "question_index": 20, "text": "One of the many things I really like about your film is the performance by Dianne Reeves, the singer in it. And the music director for your film is Allen Sviridoff, who had been the music director for your aunt, Rosemary Clooney...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, we - every actor that we hired, I talked to, and literally, we brought them in and said, smoke. Because if you can't smoke, you can't smoke. It doesn't look right if you're faking it. And we neede"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382570", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "George Clooney says the press has a duty to 'always question authority'", "question_index": 21, "text": "...Who I'm an enormous fan of. I love her recordings. What did her music mean to you when you were growing up? It was not your generation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382570", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "George Clooney says the press has a duty to 'always question authority'", "question_index": 22, "text": "It wasn't my generation, either", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, but I was one of those weird kids. You know, I was listening to..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382570", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "George Clooney says the press has a duty to 'always question authority'", "question_index": 23, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, but I was one of those weird kids. You know, I was listening to..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382570", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "George Clooney says the press has a duty to 'always question authority'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Were you? You were on the road with Rosemary Clooney?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, that's right. Well, I was listening to Led Zeppelin, and I was listening to Nat Cole. You know, I had a very varied growing-up because I was on the road with, you know, them a lot, or I was always"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382570", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "George Clooney says the press has a duty to 'always question authority'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Oh, you were - oh, right. I see. Yeah. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I was 20, I was Rosemary's driver and..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382570", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "George Clooney says the press has a duty to 'always question authority'", "question_index": 26, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I spent - I was around that kind of music a lot."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382570", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "George Clooney says the press has a duty to 'always question authority'", "question_index": 27, "text": "I see. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I got to appreciate Cole Porter and Johnny Mercer."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382570", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "George Clooney says the press has a duty to 'always question authority'", "question_index": 28, "text": "And I know exactly what she was talking about, too, because her voice was basically shot in the last couple of recordings she made, but her phrasing was so beautiful, and the emotion was so beautifully conveyed in it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I had a real appreciation of those guys - Sinatra and, you know, Nat King Cole especially, and Rosemary. And Rosemary was having - she was having her comeback at that point. And her comeback was s"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382570", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "George Clooney says the press has a duty to 'always question authority'", "question_index": 29, "text": "You stayed with your aunt when you first got to Hollywood. Did you think you were talented when you started working? Did you think you actually had something?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When you see her taking songs that are normally sort of up-tempoed, like \"Don't Fence Me In\" or - and bringing it down to, like, a quarter of the speed and singing, you know, \"Straighten Up And Fly Ri"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382570", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "George Clooney says the press has a duty to 'always question authority'", "question_index": 30, "text": "Well, \"ER\" - when you got \"ER,\" that certainly must have changed your life a lot.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't really know whether I had any talent or not. I knew that I was, for the first time in my life, engaged, and I hadn't been. I was one of those guys who was pretty good at almost anything I tri"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382570", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "George Clooney says the press has a duty to 'always question authority'", "question_index": 31, "text": "I mean, suddenly you were a star. And people become so close to you when you're on TV every week...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382570", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "George Clooney says the press has a duty to 'always question authority'", "question_index": 32, "text": "...That there's this kind of bonding that I think people go through.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382570", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "George Clooney says the press has a duty to 'always question authority'", "question_index": 33, "text": "You knew something about fame. You know, your father was on TV. Rosemary Clooney, your aunt, was incredibly famous. But what surprised you most when it happened to you? What were you unprepared for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's an unusual experience because it's not like being a movie star. You haven't paid 10 bucks and you're 30 feet high and you've made it a date. You know, you've been in their homes every Thursday. S"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382570", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "George Clooney says the press has a duty to 'always question authority'", "question_index": 34, "text": "I want to thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's a funny thing. There isn't a real fame school that you can go to and learn, you know? I had probably - if there's - haven't met many people better prepared for it. Because I had the great v"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382570", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "George Clooney says the press has a duty to 'always question authority'", "question_index": 35, "text": "My interview with George Clooney was recorded in 2005, after the release of his movie \"Good Night, And Good Luck.\" He's now on Broadway in the stage adaptation of the film. He cowrote it and stars as Edward R. Murrow. His performance has just been nominated for a Tony. If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, like this week's interviews about the pronatalist movement, Project 2025 and how trauma shapes us, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it's fun."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382570", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "George Clooney", "title": "George Clooney says the press has a duty to 'always question authority'", "question_index": 36, "text": "And to find out what's happening behind the scenes of our show and get our producers' recommendations for what to watch, read and listen to, subscribe to our free newsletter at whyy.org/freshair. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Briger. Our senior producer today is Roberta Shorrock. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Susan Nyakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. Our cohost is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it's fun."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382583", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "Blind Willie Johnson", "title": "Terry Gross remembers her late husband, jazz writer Francis Davis", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. This is my first show back in about 2 1/2 weeks. Today's show is all about why. My husband, my partner of 47 years, Francis Davis, died after a long illness on Monday, April 14. You may know about Francis from his writing about jazz and popular culture or from the time he was a jazz critic on FRESH AIR when it was a local show and in the early days when we went national. Often when I introduce a guest, I quote from reviews and profiles that sum up their contributions better than I think I could. To sum up my husband's place as a writer, I'm going to quote from a couple of the obits. In The New York Times, Adam Nossiter wrote, his specialty was teasing meaning from the sounds he heard, situating them in America's history, culture and society. That approach and the fluency of his writing made him one of the most influential writers on jazz in the 1980s and beyond. The headline of the NPR obit by Nate Chinen described him as a giant of jazz criticism. In addition to jazz, Francis also wrote essays about other forms of music, as well as movies, TV and books. For me, reading him is now my best way of feeling like I'm spending time with him. I've been reading him a lot lately. Before I get back to doing interviews and immersing myself in the lives of my guests, I want to share some of Francis with you. On today's show, I'm going to read you excerpts of a few of his essays and play recordings he praised in those pieces. Along the way, I'll also tell a few stories about him, including the story of how we met and became a couple. FRESH AIR played a big part in that. Francis wrote for The Atlantic magazine, The New York Times, The Village Voice, The Philadelphia Inquirer and various music magazines. He had seven books and received a Guggenheim fellowship. He founded and ran The Village Voice annual jazz critics poll, which, after several years, moved to NPR Music and is now on artsfuse.org, where it's run by Tom Hull, who will be continuing the poll, which he renamed the Annual Francis Davis Jazz Poll. Francis also won a Grammy for his liner notes to the Miles Davis 50th anniversary collector's edition of \"Kind Of Blue.\" It's been surreal to have that famous trophy in our home. In his liner notes, Francis wrote, quote, \"in terms of where it falls in jazz history, 'Kind Of Blue' is celebrated for being the album that popularized improvising on modes - that is, improvising in the sparest and starkest of scales as an alternative to bebop's dense thickets of chord changes. But this hardly explains the album's hold on three successive generations of listeners. The pieces on 'Kind Of Blue' were meant to serve as springboards to improvisation, and did they ever,\" unquote. Francis went on to describe John Coltrane's solo on the track \"Flamenco Sketches.\" Quote, \"Coltrane worries the notes of each scale as prayerfully as beads on a rosary,\" unquote. I'm going to play an excerpt of that Coltrane solo because it's beautiful and because Francis had a contract to write a book about Coltrane. Although he never finished the book, he was steeped in Coltrane music and research and wrote about him in shorter essays. In this solo on \"Flamenco Sketches,\" you'll hear Coltrane on tenor saxophone, Bill Evans - piano, Paul Chambers - bass, Jimmy Cobb - drums.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382583", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "Blind Willie Johnson", "title": "Terry Gross remembers her late husband, jazz writer Francis Davis", "question_index": 1, "text": "That was an excerpt of John Coltrane's solo on the track \"Flamenco Sketches\" from the Miles Davis album \"Kind Of Blue.\" A piece that was a turning point for Francis was his profile of tenor saxophonist Sonny Rollins titled \"An Improvisor Prepares.\" After it was rejected by the magazine that greenlighted it, Francis sent it to the attention of Bill Whitworth, the revered editor of The Atlantic magazine. And although Bill didn't publish it, he wanted to see more. The Atlantic became Francis' longest professional affiliation. He became a contributing editor, and Bill became a treasured friend. Here's how Francis describes Sonny Rollins in that 1984 profile. Quote, \"when conjuring up an image of the quintessential jazz man - heroic, inspired, mystical, obsessed, as often as not, it is Rollins we picture because no other jazz instrumentalist better epitomizes the lonely tight rope walk between spontaneity and organization, implicit in taking an improvised solo. Everyone who listens to jazz can tell a story of a night when Rollins could do no wrong, when ideas poured out of him so effortlessly. The irony is that the nights when Rollins is at wit's end can be just as thrilling for illuminating the perils endemic to improvisation. Rollins is the greatest living jazz improviser. No arguments, please. And if we redefine virtuosity to include improvisational cunning as well as instrumental finesse, he may be the greatest virtuoso that jazz has ever produced,\" unquote. Here's Sonny Rollins' unaccompanied opening on his 1972 recording of \"Skylark.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382583", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "Blind Willie Johnson", "title": "Terry Gross remembers her late husband, jazz writer Francis Davis", "question_index": 2, "text": "That was the opening to Sonny Rollins' recording of \"Skylark.\" The song was co-written by Hoagy Carmichael. Francis once wrote that Carmichael, who was from the Midwest, looked like a Corn Belt Samuel Beckett. Francis and I met through music. He was managing the record store on the University of Pennsylvania campus, which was just a few blocks away from where WHYY was in the 1970s. I'd go to that store to pick up records I needed for the show. A close friend of mine who also worked there introduced me to Francis and told me that Francis had a huge record collection that included a lot of out-of-print recordings. This was decades before you could find nearly anything on the internet. At the time, 1978, FRESH AIR was a local three-hour show five days a week, which was way too much time to fill. So I was on the lookout for good features. I thought, why not try a feature in which Francis would play and talk about great but hard-to-find jazz recordings? I asked him to write a script and record an audition. This was before he'd started his writing career, and I was astonished by the quality of his writing. That's how he started his weekly FRESH AIR feature called Interval. I fell in love with his writing and with him. Music, movies, books - these were passions we shared and loved talking about with each other. I need to take a short break here. I'll continue this remembrance of my husband, Francis Davis, after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382583", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "Blind Willie Johnson", "title": "Terry Gross remembers her late husband, jazz writer Francis Davis", "question_index": 3, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. There's more I want to tell you about my husband, Francis Davis. He died Monday, April 14, after eight months in home hospice, doing his best to maintain his strength despite his enemies, COPD and Parkinson's. Francis wrote about jazz and other forms of music and popular culture. In this remembrance, I'm reading passages from his essays and playing related recordings that he praised. When PBS was planning to broadcast a three-part series on \"The History Of The Blues,\" Francis was asked to write the companion book. He wrote the book, but the series was never completed and never broadcast. The status of the series and how it would affect the book was very stress-inducing, and that was in addition to the pressure of writing the book. As he was finishing it, he started to not feel well, and after it was done, he ended up in the hospital with a serious, possibly life-threatening infection that took days to diagnose. It was terrifying. After he was sent home, he still needed IV antibiotics. I was taught briefly how to administer the drugs through the IV line and was warned that if there are air bubbles in the tubing, that could be dangerous. And I was told that anything that touches the opening of the tubing or the medication could contaminate it. I thought, are you out of your mind, giving me the responsibility of doing what trained nurses do? I'm proud to say Francis survived my nursing, but I almost didn't. Here's a passage from the 1995 book, \"The History Of The Blues,\" the book that Francis handed in before the hospital. The passage is about Blind Willie Johnson. Quote, \"he had few equals as a slide guitarist. He used a pocketknife in lieu of a bottleneck. Johnson's music was charred with purgatorial fire. More than 60 years later, you can still smell the smoke on it. He was a man of God, perhaps even a religious fanatic, but he ranted like a man possessed by demons. His life was tragic, even by the cruel standards of the day. He died in 1947, long after his brief recording career had come to an end. He made his living by playing on Texas street corners, a blind man with a guitar and a tin cup, shaking the faith of passers by with the absolute certainty of his. Were Johnson alive today, he might be livid to find his name in so many books on the blues. He performed mostly traditional hymns, hardly any secular material. Yet his style had more in common with those of the blues performers of his day than that of any of his fellow guitar evangelists, and no one was more original. In terms of its intensity alone, its spiritual ache, there's nothing else from the period to compare with Johnson's 1927 recording of 'Dark Was The Night, Cold Was The Ground' on which his guitar takes the part of a preacher and his wordless voice the part of a wrapped congregation,\" unquote. Here's Blind Willie Johnson's 1927 recording of \"Dark Was The Night, Cold Was The Ground.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382583", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "Blind Willie Johnson", "title": "Terry Gross remembers her late husband, jazz writer Francis Davis", "question_index": 4, "text": "That was Blind Willie Johnson. After Francis' blues book was published, he received a confounding invitation to sell the book live on TV on the cable home shopping network QVC. Apparently, one of the hosts was a fan. As I recall, Francis was sandwiched between fake emerald costume jewelry and the Road Whiz, an early kind of GPS that told you where the closest restaurants, gas stations, and bathrooms were. Let's just say the book did OK, but the Road Whiz did a whole lot better. As I mentioned, Francis was hospitalized after handing in the manuscript for \"The History Of The Blues.\" The essay he wrote after he got out of the hospital was titled \"Infection.\" It was a review of the original cast recording of the Stephen Sondheim and James Lapine musical \"Passion.\" The musical tells the story of an Italian soldier, Giorgio , who's forced to leave his beautiful, vibrant mistress, Clara, with whom he's deeply in love, after he receives orders that he's being transferred to a faraway garrison. His new commanding officer's sickly cousin, Fosca, falls in love with Giorgio and becomes obsessed with him. She lives in the world of the sick and marginalized, and he's healthy and strong and wants to get away from her. Francis and I loved the show. Here's an excerpt of his essay. Quote, \"a few days after seeing 'Passion' for the second time, I was hospitalized with a 104-degree temperature, a symptom of what was ultimately diagnosed as a serious bacterial infection. In a situation in which part of my role as a good patient was to monitor my moods and bodily functions and dutifully report even the slightest change, I no longer saw Fosca's morbid self-absorption as quite so absurd. Fosca's love for Giorgio is supposed to be superior to Clara's by virtue of not being carnal.\" At least that was what Sondheim and Lapine said in interviews. \"Regardless of Sondheim and Lapine's original intentions, the dichotomy represented onstage wasn't between body love and soul love but between health and infirmity, the pang of happiness and the unaccountable lure of death,\" unquote. Here's the song Francis singled out. It's sung by the character Fosca on what may be her deathbed. She tells Giorgio she wants to dictate a letter for him to write but to write it as if he were writing it to her, confessing his deep feelings for her. The song is \"I Wish I Could Forget You,\" sung by Donna Murphy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Vocalizing)."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382583", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "Blind Willie Johnson", "title": "Terry Gross remembers her late husband, jazz writer Francis Davis", "question_index": 5, "text": "That was Donna Murphy from the original cast recording of \"Passion.\" Francis' essay about \"Passion\" was included in his book \"Bebop And Nothingness: Jazz And Pop At The End Of The Century.\" The title is a play on Jean-Paul Sartre's book \"Being And Nothingness.\" Francis was great at coming up with titles. That book showed up in a confounding place, a Brooks Brothers ad, maybe a page from the catalog. The photo was of a 20-something guy with his hands folded around the back of his head, and on his lap, a copy of Francis' book, \"Bebop And Nothingness.\" The model was supposed to look dreamy, but I doubt he'd ever dream of reading that book. My theory is the book was chosen as a prop because the book jacket's eye-catching color scheme of blue, red and yellow matched the model's sweater and plaid pants. We framed the ad, and it still hangs on our wall, baffling anyone who sees it. One of Francis' coinages also showed up in a surprising place. In a 1992 essay about the show \"Seinfeld,\" Francis described Kramer as a hipster doofus. Someone from the show must've read that because the following year, hipster doofus showed up in a couple of \"Seinfeld\" episodes. Here's Kramer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Fosca, singing) I wish that I could love you. I know that I've upset you. I know I've been unkind. I wanted you to vanish from sight, but now I see you in a different light. And though I cannot lo"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382583", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "Blind Willie Johnson", "title": "Terry Gross remembers her late husband, jazz writer Francis Davis", "question_index": 6, "text": "After we take a short break, I'll conclude my tribute to Francis. And we'll feature my interview with George Clooney, who was just nominated for a Tony. He's on Broadway starring as journalist Edward R. Murrow in the stage adaptation of Clooney's 2005 film \"Good Night, And Good Luck.\" Francis loved and was influenced by film noir, and he loved Charlie Haden's ensemble, Quartet West, and how it often evoked film noir like on this track, \"There In A Dream.\" I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Cosmo Kramer) Said I'm not good-looking enough for her, not good-looking enough. Jerry, look at me."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382583", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "Blind Willie Johnson", "title": "Terry Gross remembers her late husband, jazz writer Francis Davis", "question_index": 7, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Putting together a remembrance of my husband, Francis Davis, has been a very helpful way to transition back to FRESH AIR after his death nearly three weeks ago. We knew it was coming. He was in home hospice. But it's nothing you can really be prepared for. If you're just tuning in, Francis was a jazz critic who wrote about all aspects of popular culture. He was a contributing editor at The Atlantic magazine, wrote for The New York Times, the Village Voice, The Philadelphia Inquirer and various music magazines, had seven books, received a Guggenheim Fellowship, and won a Grammy for his liner notes for the 50th anniversary edition of the classic Miles Davis recording \"Kind Of Blue.\" We were together 47 years. There's more of his writing I want to read you and more related music I want to play. I've mostly been quoting essays about people who are recognized as groundbreaking figures. But Francis also wrote extensively about emerging musicians and composers and the avant-garde. He helped launch the careers of newcomers and rediscover musicians who'd disappeared or been forgotten. He titled one of his books \"Outcats,\" a word coined by the pianist Paul Knopf and revived by Francis. Knopf described an outcat as, quote, \"an outcast and a far-out cat combined.\" Francis wrote about many outcats. Here's how Francis used the word. Quote, \"by popular stereotype, all jazz musicians are outcats. But those of us within music recognize the outcat as a specific type, too self-absorbed to be part of any movement and too idiosyncratic to spearhead one, and too self-reliant to seek audience or peer approval, and too marginal in the larger scheme of things to elicit much. The word conveys undertones of exile, rootlessness, alienation and despair,\" unquote. One of my favorite Francis essays was written after Johnny Cash's death and was published in The Atlantic in March 2004. Here's how it opened. Quote, \"in 1956, when he recorded 'I Walk The Line' for Sun Records, Johnny Cash became an overnight sensation. But it was as many years of singing as if he knew from personal experience all of humankind's strengths and failings, as if he had both committed murder and been accepted into God's light, that made him a favorite of liberals and conservatives, MTV and the Grand Ole Opry, Gary Gilmore and Billy Graham. From song to song, he was a cowboy or a white outcast who rode with Indians, a family man or a drifter, a believer in eternal life or a condemned murderer with no tomorrows anywhere. His credibility owed as much to the moral effort involved in endlessly putting himself in others' shoes as it did to his professional savvy in putting a song across,\" unquote. In another part of the essay, Francis describes Cash like this. Quote, \"he was in his late 30s and already had plenty of mileage on him when he was discovered by television. Longer hair and the shadows and dents of middle age brought out the character in his face,\" unquote. The shadows and dents of middle age - that's an image that has always stuck with me. One of Francis' favorite Johnny Cash songs is from John Frankenheimer's 1970 film \"I Walk The Line,\" for which Cash wrote the score. The songs reflect what's going on in the main character's mind. Francis wrote, quote, \"the movie was a flop at the box office, but the film's song 'Flesh And Blood,' perhaps the single most beautiful song Cash ever wrote, and one whose lyrics could stand alone as inspired nature poetry, reached No. 1 on the country charts,\" unquote. Here's the song \"Flesh And Blood.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Cosmo Kramer) Said I'm not good-looking enough for her, not good-looking enough. Jerry, look at me."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382583", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "Blind Willie Johnson", "title": "Terry Gross remembers her late husband, jazz writer Francis Davis", "question_index": 8, "text": "Thank you for listening to this remembrance of my husband, Francis Davis. This has been different from anything I've ever done on FRESH AIR, but that's because the last 2 1/2 weeks since Francis died have been unlike anything I've ever experienced. Thank you for all the emails, posts and letters I've received. Francis, my husband, my best friend, thank you for our 47 years together. You will live on in your writing and always in my heart.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Beside a singing mountain stream where the willow grew, where the silver leaf of maple sparkled in the morning view, I braided twigs of willow, made a string of buckeye beads. But flesh and "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5382583", "date": "2025-05-01", "guest": "Blind Willie Johnson", "title": "Terry Gross remembers her late husband, jazz writer Francis Davis", "question_index": 9, "text": "After we take a short break, we'll hear my interview with George Clooney, who's on Broadway starring as journalist Edward R. Murrow in the stage adaptation of Clooney's 2005 film \"Good Night, And Good Luck.\" He was just nominated for a Tony. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) So when the day was ended, I was still not satisfied, for I knew everything I touched would wither and would die. And love is all that will remain and grow from all these seeds. Mother Natur"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5388474", "date": "2025-05-07", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump family business ventures stand to directly benefit the President", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Since President Trump has returned to office, his conflicts of interest have surpassed those of his first term. He's no longer hesitant about pursuing profits without restraint, according to my guest Eric Lipton, an investigative reporter for The New York Times. Lipton has written a series of articles about the president's conflicts of interest relating to his family's real estate and development companies and cryptocurrency company, World Liberty Financial. Lipton writes that World Liberty Financial has eviscerated the boundary between private enterprise and government policy in ways without precedent in modern history. Trump has urged Congress to pass a bill known as the GENIUS Act, which would make it easier for U.S. companies to deal in a type of cryptocurrency known as stablecoin. After advocating for passage of the bill, the Trump family crypto company started issuing its own stablecoin and became one of the biggest issuers in the world. Partly as a result of Lipton and his co-authors' reporting, Democrats are now trying to amend the GENIUS Act. I spoke with Eric Lipton yesterday morning about his reporting on Trump's conflicts of interest. While we were recording, a Senate subcommittee opened an inquiry into, quote, \"Trump crypto corruption.\" Hours later, Senate Democrats introduced the End Crypto Corruption Act, which would ban the president, vice president, senior executive branch officials, members of Congress and their immediate families from financially benefiting from issuing, endorsing or sponsoring crypto assets such as meme coins and stablecoins, both of which we discuss in this interview. Eric Lipton, welcome back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5388474", "date": "2025-05-07", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump family business ventures stand to directly benefit the President", "question_index": 1, "text": "So you describe the crypto legislation before Congress now, the GENIUS Act, as the first formal act by Congress to create a regulatory system that could help the industry grow. So let's start with, what is stablecoin, which is the type of crypto at question here?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5388474", "date": "2025-05-07", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump family business ventures stand to directly benefit the President", "question_index": 2, "text": "If it's stable at a dollar, why not just use a dollar?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Stablecoins are extremely popular in the crypto world, and they're a way of having a type of a token that has a steady value. It's worth a dollar, no matter what is happening in the Bitcoin market up "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5388474", "date": "2025-05-07", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump family business ventures stand to directly benefit the President", "question_index": 3, "text": "So how would the GENIUS Act regulate stablecoin?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Why use crypto if you're just building a crypto that's tied to the dollar? It's a very good question. I mean, it is more fluid than a dollar, and it can cross borders with fewer restrictions. But that"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5388474", "date": "2025-05-07", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump family business ventures stand to directly benefit the President", "question_index": 4, "text": "Let's get to the conflict here. So Trump called on Congress to pass this legislation. Then World Liberty Financial, the Trump family crypto company, said it was going to release its own stablecoin called USD1. And Trump, or his family, would be profiting from the legislation that he asked Congress to pass. The Trump family company is now one of the biggest issuers of stablecoin in the world. So talk about that conflict.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, the GENIUS Act would officially recognize stablecoins as a functioning part of the financial sector, and it would create some requirements for issuers of the stablecoins. The biggest thing tha"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5388474", "date": "2025-05-07", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump family business ventures stand to directly benefit the President", "question_index": 5, "text": "So you expressed the concern that the bill lacks strong provisions to stop money laundering, and Democrats in Congress are concerned about that, too. But, you know, Trump's Justice Department recently terminated a crypto crimes task force. A task force that could perhaps have helped, you know, keep on the lookout for money laundering no longer exists.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a very odd situation because you have simultaneously a president of the United States who is both appointing the financial regulators, so effectively, he's the top financial regulator in the Unit"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5388474", "date": "2025-05-07", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump family business ventures stand to directly benefit the President", "question_index": 6, "text": "So you say that the crypto world's ultimate goal in Washington is to secure ambitious legislation that would cement the industry's standing in the U.S. financial system and that the crypto world wants to make the crypto sector part of the larger banking sector. Like, what would that look like if the crypto industry got its way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, this is a single piece of a much broader kind of landscapes of conflicts of interest when it comes to the Trump family and cryptocurrency. And among the other examples are the fact that,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5388474", "date": "2025-05-07", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump family business ventures stand to directly benefit the President", "question_index": 7, "text": "Trump established a strategic bitcoin reserve. I don't really understand what that is. Can you explain it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, cryptocurrency has been around for, you know, quite a while now, and it's largely, you know, been a way for people to make financial bets that it's going to rise in value. It hasn't had "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5388474", "date": "2025-05-07", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump family business ventures stand to directly benefit the President", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, let's take a break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is New York Times investigative reporter Eric Lipton. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's effectively - it's sort of something similar to a Fort Knox. I mean, the United States has a place where it stores gold. It's like a reservoir of gold - the gold used to back up the dollar."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5388474", "date": "2025-05-07", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump family business ventures stand to directly benefit the President", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with The New York Times investigative reporter Eric Lipton. He's written a series of articles about President Trump's conflicts of interest, including the Trump family real estate and cryptocurrency businesses. So the Trump family company, World Liberty Financial - their crypto company - does more than stablecoin. We've talked about stablecoin. Describe the company to us and the range of things that they do regarding crypto.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's effectively - it's sort of something similar to a Fort Knox. I mean, the United States has a place where it stores gold. It's like a reservoir of gold - the gold used to back up the dollar."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5388474", "date": "2025-05-07", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump family business ventures stand to directly benefit the President", "question_index": 10, "text": "What does President Trump and his sons, Don Jr. and Eric, have to say about conflicts of interest regarding the president with this company?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So World Liberty was effectively created in, you know, September, October of last year, as the presidential election was coming towards a close. And it's a brand-new company, therefore - I mean, relat"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5388474", "date": "2025-05-07", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump family business ventures stand to directly benefit the President", "question_index": 11, "text": "Hasn't Trump said that he is immune from conflicts of interest?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, the White House has said to us the same statement each time we ask about this - that President Trump has no conflicts of interest because his sons are running this business, and that he has di"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5388474", "date": "2025-05-07", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump family business ventures stand to directly benefit the President", "question_index": 12, "text": "So we talked about the Trump family cryptocurrency business. Let's look at the Trump family real estate business and developments it's working on in foreign countries. Last month, Eric Trump visited Gulf states, including the United Arab Emirates and Qatar, working on real estate developments there. And he met with Saudi leaders, too. So if you could choose one of those real estate developments that Eric Trump was discussing and tell us about the potential conflicts you see there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, in fact, that is true. The president of the United States and the vice president are the only two members of the executive branch that are exempt from a federal criminal law that makes it a cr"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5388474", "date": "2025-05-07", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump family business ventures stand to directly benefit the President", "question_index": 13, "text": "So what's the importance of American relations with that state, with that Gulf state? What's at stake in terms of foreign policy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, it - the thing that really is problematic is when they are doing deals that involve government entities. So, for example, they have a business partner in the Middle East called DarGlobal"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5388474", "date": "2025-05-07", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump family business ventures stand to directly benefit the President", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, let's look at another example of a potential conflict of interest in the Gulf. World Liberty Financial recently made a deal to take $2 billion worth in cryptocurrency from an Emirati venture fund that's backed by the government of Abu Dhabi. This is all a little bit confusing but very important. So explain what the potential problem is here.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a very small nation. It's a peninsula that sticks out into the Gulf there, but it's a hugely important one - very wealthy nation. There's a large military base. It's - the United States has more "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5388474", "date": "2025-05-07", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump family business ventures stand to directly benefit the President", "question_index": 15, "text": "So let's take a break, and then we'll talk more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Eric Lipton, and he's been writing a series of articles about President Trump's conflicts of interest. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In this case, you know, as World Liberty is launching its stablecoin, you know, they overnight become one of the biggest stablecoin issuers in the world. And stablecoins are one of the most profitable"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5388474", "date": "2025-05-07", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump family business ventures stand to directly benefit the President", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with New York Times investigative reporter Eric Lipton. He's written a series of articles about President Trump's conflicts of interest, including the Trump family real estate and cryptocurrency businesses. At about the same time that Eric Trump was in the Gulf, working on real estate and crypto deals, Don Jr. was in Serbia and Bulgaria, working on real estate deals pertaining to the Trump family company. So let's look at what's happening in Serbia. I want you to choose one of the projects that Don Jr. was working on there and talk about potential conflicts.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In this case, you know, as World Liberty is launching its stablecoin, you know, they overnight become one of the biggest stablecoin issuers in the world. And stablecoins are one of the most profitable"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5388474", "date": "2025-05-07", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump family business ventures stand to directly benefit the President", "question_index": 17, "text": "Do you think that's advantageous to the Trump family - that it's complicated and there's so many conflicts, it's hard to keep track?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Don Jr. is in Bulgaria, Serbia, Romania. And in Serbia, for example, at a site that the United States bombed, along with NATO, during the Balkan War when Clinton was president, the former Yugosl"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5388474", "date": "2025-05-07", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump family business ventures stand to directly benefit the President", "question_index": 18, "text": "OK. I hope I'm not adding the - to the confusion here, but I'm going to ask you about one other potential conflict. And this is in Bulgaria, another country that Don Jr. visited in April. He appeared on stage with somebody named Anton Trenchev, co-founder of a crypto firm named Nexo. Tell us the story about that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do. I think that it is - it's hard to write about them all. It's hard to read about them. It takes a fair amount of energy simply to keep up. And you - they all - they kind of all blur together. And"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5388474", "date": "2025-05-07", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump family business ventures stand to directly benefit the President", "question_index": 19, "text": "So let's get to something else that's a potential conflict. And this is something brand-new called Executive Branch, which is, like, a - it's a private club in Washington, D.C. Tell us about this club and what you need to do to become a member of it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Though Nexo was targeted by the Securities and Exchange Commission during the Biden administration for violating federal securities laws. And it paid a large fine, and it then withdrew from the Americ"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5388474", "date": "2025-05-07", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump family business ventures stand to directly benefit the President", "question_index": 20, "text": "David Sacks, a founding member in Executive Branch, who I believe is also a crypto adviser to President Trump - he described this private club, Executive Branch, as a place for younger, hipper, Trump-aligned Republicans to gather. And I'm trying to think - how many young, hip Republicans have $500,000 to join a private club? Young? $500,000?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the club was announced a couple weekends ago. Donald Jr. was actually in the Balkans in Eastern Europe at the time, giving his paid speeches and, you know, visiting with the Serbian president, wher"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5388474", "date": "2025-05-07", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump family business ventures stand to directly benefit the President", "question_index": 21, "text": "Let me reintroduce you here. My guest is New York Times investigative reporter Eric Lipton, and he's written a series of articles about President Trump's conflicts of interest. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, there are a lot of venture capitalist, Silicon Valley types that put large amounts of money into President Trump's reelection campaign, and many of them, associated with the crypto indus"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5388474", "date": "2025-05-07", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump family business ventures stand to directly benefit the President", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with New York Times investigative reporter Eric Lipton. He's written a series of articles about President Trump's conflicts of interest, including the Trump family real estate and cryptocurrency businesses. So some of the people involved with the Trump family businesses have, shall we say, interesting backgrounds. For example, Zak Folkman and Chase Herro, two of the partners in the crypto business World Liberty Financial, the Trump family company - tell us about their background.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, there are a lot of venture capitalist, Silicon Valley types that put large amounts of money into President Trump's reelection campaign, and many of them, associated with the crypto indus"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5388474", "date": "2025-05-07", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump family business ventures stand to directly benefit the President", "question_index": 23, "text": "One of them came up with a kind of pay-for-play idea. Can you describe that deal?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They are kind of serial entrepreneurs, you might call them. They have been trying to pursue a bunch of different business interests over quite a number of years, and they've had a number of unsuccessf"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5388474", "date": "2025-05-07", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump family business ventures stand to directly benefit the President", "question_index": 24, "text": "Yeah, because it sounds like, we're going to bring you credibility with the Trump name and international attention, probably would raise the price of their cryptocoin, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As we were investigating the startup of World Liberty, we heard from several crypto companies that Zak Folkman, using the nickname of ZMoney, was sending Signal messages out to cryptocurrency executiv"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5388474", "date": "2025-05-07", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump family business ventures stand to directly benefit the President", "question_index": 25, "text": "Yeah. So it looks like it's a vote of confidence in that other company's crypto, but it's really, in part, a way of making money for the Trump family crypto.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It did. What - in fact, once these partnerships were being announced, there were short-term spikes in the price of almost all of the companies they invested in. So they had the ability to drive market"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5388474", "date": "2025-05-07", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump family business ventures stand to directly benefit the President", "question_index": 26, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5388474", "date": "2025-05-07", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump family business ventures stand to directly benefit the President", "question_index": 27, "text": "Right. One other crypto thing I want to ask you about, which is using meme coin, which is basically like a souvenir. It doesn't have, like, financial value. It's more like a collectable than a coin. Is that fair description?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Behind the scenes, there was money that was being exchanged, and there was no public transparency about the financial relationship between the parties."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5388474", "date": "2025-05-07", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump family business ventures stand to directly benefit the President", "question_index": 28, "text": "Yeah. So the Trump family crypto business used meme coin as a way of raising money in return for access to the president. Would you describe that plan?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5388474", "date": "2025-05-07", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump family business ventures stand to directly benefit the President", "question_index": 29, "text": "And the invitation said that it will be the most exclusive invitation in the world, a chance to have a, quote, \"intimate private dinner,\" unquote, with Trump at his members-only golf club in Virginia. But is, like, exclusive and intimate private dinner appropriate words to describe a dinner with 220 people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yet another in the crazy roadmap of things that we're - we've been trying to examine is that there are two crypto companies that the Trump family has started recently. The second one is selling a"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5388474", "date": "2025-05-07", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump family business ventures stand to directly benefit the President", "question_index": 30, "text": "So Trump used his properties - his hotels and Mar-a-Lago - in ways that profited Trump in his first term, and he's doing that again in the second term. And a good example, which is something that you wrote about a little earlier, is when the Saudis held their LIV Golf tournament in the U.S. in Florida. And LIV is, like, the Saudi rival to the PGA, the Professional Golf Association, which, you know, runs this really important tour and championship in the U.S. So how do Trump properties tie in to the rival Saudi LIV tour and championship?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, well, that's, I mean - you know, if anything, you know, Donald Trump is an incredible marketer and brand-builder. And he's marketing and brand-building, and he's been doing that for decades now."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5388474", "date": "2025-05-07", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump family business ventures stand to directly benefit the President", "question_index": 31, "text": "OK, time for one more break. Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is New York Times investigative reporter Eric Lipton. He's written a series of articles about President Trump's conflicts of interest. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the LIV Golf is backed by the sovereign wealth fund of Saudi Arabia, and it - they've spent an enormous amount of money trying to create a competitive league to the PGA. And in the United States, t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5388474", "date": "2025-05-07", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump family business ventures stand to directly benefit the President", "question_index": 32, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with New York Times investigative reporter Eric Lipton. He's written a series of articles about President Trump's conflicts of interest, including the Trump family real estate and cryptocurrency businesses. So we've talked about a bunch of conflicts, or potential conflicts, of interest involving President Trump. And in terms of reaction, Democrats are trying to block a bill pertaining to cryptocurrency that would stand to benefit the Trump crypto company - the Trump family crypto company. Do you have any sense of what the Democratic strategy is to try to block that bill?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the LIV Golf is backed by the sovereign wealth fund of Saudi Arabia, and it - they've spent an enormous amount of money trying to create a competitive league to the PGA. And in the United States, t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5388474", "date": "2025-05-07", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump family business ventures stand to directly benefit the President", "question_index": 33, "text": "That's why I asked.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean, it's something that's just developed in recent days, and several of them actually cited our stories as a factor in it."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5388474", "date": "2025-05-07", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump family business ventures stand to directly benefit the President", "question_index": 34, "text": "Do you have any expectations about what the next step is going to be for Democrats pertaining to the GENIUS Act?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And so I think that they are demanding that the Republicans give them some concessions. And I do suspect that there will be a resolution of this, and that - I know that there are conversations o"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5388474", "date": "2025-05-07", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump family business ventures stand to directly benefit the President", "question_index": 35, "text": "So what was your reaction when you found out that Maxine Waters had read out loud one of your articles about Trump crypto conflicts of interest? She read it out loud before a House Financial Services Committee hearing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, as we record this right now on Tuesday, the House Financial Services Democrats had planned to stand up and walk out of a House hearing as a form of protest to go to do their own hearing in which"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5388474", "date": "2025-05-07", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump family business ventures stand to directly benefit the President", "question_index": 36, "text": "Eric Lipton, it's a pleasure to have you back on the show. Thank you so much, and thank you so much for your reporting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was great. And of course, it's sort of cool to have a member of Congress read a story that you wrote. But, you know, what was most important to me is that there be more accountability and transpare"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5388474", "date": "2025-05-07", "guest": "Eric Lipton", "title": "How Trump family business ventures stand to directly benefit the President", "question_index": 37, "text": "Eric Lipton is an investigative reporter for The New York Times. While we were recording our interview yesterday morning, a Senate subcommittee opened an inquiry into, quote, \"Trump crypto corruption.\" Hours later, Senate Democrats introduced the End Crypto Corruption Act, which would ban the president, vice president, senior executive branch officials, members of Congress and their immediate families from financially benefiting from issuing, endorsing or sponsoring crypto assets such as Meme coins and stablecoins. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll talk about how technology now shapes every aspect of parenting, from our online identities to the pressures of sharing our lives in real-time. Our guest will be journalist Amanda Hess, author of the new book \"Second Life: Having A Child In The Digital Age.\" I hope you'll join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at @nprfreshair. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Briger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi, Anna Bauman and Joel Wolfram. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 0, "text": "R. Crumb, welcome to FRESH AIR. Do you think your early comics, some of the ones...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli. R. Crumb is the most renowned of the underground cartoonists who emerged in the 1960s. He created Zap Comix, featuring an entire menagerie of his characters, su"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 1, "text": "...Anthologized in your new book, do you think they look different out of the time period than they did to you in their time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 2, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Different from this perspective of nowadays?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 3, "text": "In your new book, \"The R. Crumb Handbook,\" you described how you started some aspects of your style after a bad LSD trip. What were the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they're kind of timeless, you know, 'cause they're - they looked out of time then. When I did them, in the beginning, in '66, '67, '68, people looked at them and said, hey, these look like old c"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 4, "text": "...Images that you saw when you were tripping that made their way into your cartoons?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 5, "text": "Well, how do you think your drawing style was actually changed by this hallucinogenic imagery?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". That's a tough question. What were the images on LSD? What did they look like? Ooh. Well, I don't know, for some reason, I don't know why or how it happened, I just - on this one really strange LSD "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 6, "text": "So what are some of the characters that you started drawing in this period after taking the LSD?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it changed vastly. Well, before that, I was trying to be - you know, in order to get work as an artist and a cartoonist, I was trying to be contemporary and with it. And I looked at the work of "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 7, "text": "OK, Mr. Natural's this kind of, like, guru kind of figure with the long...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 8, "text": "...Really long beard. Was he based on anybody who you knew or a type that you knew?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 9, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was actually, more or less, a combination of the mysticism of LSD experiences, combined with this old cartoon stereotype of the little old man with the long beard.."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 10, "text": "And Angelfood McSpade - I mean, this is an African American woman who is drawn like - some of the Black people in your early comics look like the African cannibals in the Betty Boop cartoon where they...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was several of these, kind of like, standard, you know, cartoon figure in old comic strips going back to the '20s, even earlier, probably, that little old - funny little old man with the long be"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 11, "text": "...Have her in a big pot.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 12, "text": "Yeah. Why...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right, exactly."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 13, "text": "Why did you draw them that way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Precisely."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "'Cause they were there and they were part of the whole experience of all that tawdry, low-class imagery that was boiling in my brain. That was part of it, that jungle bunny image, that was there. It w"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 15, "text": "Did you worry that people would misconstrue it? Because certainly a lot of people didn't see it that way. They just saw it as a crude stereotype.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 16, "text": "And it was swept away in your sexual imagery, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, they do. A lot of people just took it at face value. And, you know, I can't let that stop me. Like, it has to come out. What's been in there had to come out. Had - you know, I really couldn't sto"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You betcha, yeah. So, you know, I - yeah, I have no secrets. I'm probably one of the few human beings on the planet - I have no secrets. Everybody who looks at my comics knows exactly what I'm about."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 18, "text": "Everybody knows what your sexual fetishes are and everything.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's all there."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 19, "text": "But was there ever a part of you that wanted to censor that part of your mind, or at least...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The darkest side of me, it's all on paper. I - you know, so that makes - allows me to be a pretty nice guy in real life, you know? It's all out there on paper, foisted on the public."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 20, "text": "...Kind of keep it private and hidden, which is what most people do with those?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 21, "text": "What was it like for you to go from, like, loner, eccentric weirdo...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course. Yeah, sure. I'm a normal person in that way. You know, before those LSD experiences, and I just decided to let that all out, I used to make those drawings and tear them up and flush them do"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 22, "text": "...To, like, in-demand...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 23, "text": "...Popular person...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 24, "text": "...Who everybody wants to publish and buy, and know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Cool Mister..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 25, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Mr. Cool Guy. It was very disorienting because I was quite young. I was only, like, 25, 26 when all that happened, originally. And it was both, you know, thrilling to my ego - I had a big ego -"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 26, "text": "Well, you were also, like, suddenly, you were an important part of, like, the hippy counterculture. Did you identify with that culture? Did you feel like a part of it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was. Before that, I was, like, this, you know, nerd that at a party no woman even noticed. I was just part of the shrubbery or something. But after that, oh, there's R. Crumb. Oh. You know? Suddenl"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 27, "text": "You write that puppet and marionette kid shows made a deep...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Cartoonist R. Crumb, speaking to Terry Gross in 2005. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2005 interview with cartoonist R. Crumb. He had just written a"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 28, "text": "...Impression on you. You say the adult...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 29, "text": "...Assumption was that these puppets were cute and lovable.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 30, "text": "But they were actually grotesque. And the shows tried to tell kids that life could be fun and exciting. But the unconscious message was that the adult world is strange, twisted, perverse, threatening, sinister.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 31, "text": "What was it about, like, \"Howdy Doody\" or the other...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 32, "text": "...\"Kukla, Fran and Ollie\"...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ooh."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 33, "text": "...that you found, like, grotesque and sinister?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, oh, oh."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh. Well, especially \"Howdy Doody.\""}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 35, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And Clarabell the Clown and all the - oh, it was all..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 36, "text": "You bet. I sure did.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Very, very sinister and scary. And Buffalo Bob Smith - did you ever see that stuff when you were a kid?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 37, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 38, "text": "Did the frozen smile on Howdy Doody's face strike you as deranged?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Kukla, Fran and Ollie\" was cuter, though. That was - \"Kukla, Fran and Ollie\" - that was a little bit - that was better than \"Howdy Doody\" that way. It was more lovable. You know, Kukla was kind of a "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 39, "text": "OK. The things that you say about these puppet shows - that they show that the adult world is strange, twisted, perverse, threatening, sinister - that's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was just creepy and weird. You just said, what the heck? You know? This - what does that have to do with, you know, anything? It's - he doesn't - didn't look like a kid. He was supposed to be, like"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 40, "text": "...A kind of description of what your cartoons became like - strange, twisted...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 41, "text": "...Perverse, threatening, sinister. It's - like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 42, "text": "...That's what you set out to do", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 43, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 44, "text": "Not for children...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah, but I guess..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 45, "text": "...Of course. I mean, it wasn't for children.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...What I was..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 46, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What I was - yeah. What I was trying to do was to uncover that sinister quality - the dark, sinister, strange, disturbing part of things - and not hide it, not keep it hidden. You know, I started doin"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 47, "text": "You know, we've talked a little bit about how your visual imagery was changed by LSD. What about your sexual fantasies? I mean, so much of the comics that you've done...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just had to show that. I wanted to show that the - that sinister aspect, that noire or dark side of things, and how it's - I guess it's almost like making fun of the veneer of cuteness or whatever i"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 48, "text": "...Have had to do with...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 49, "text": "...Sexual fantasy. And now, what the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 50, "text": "Were they - were those fantasies as dark before LSD as they were after?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hi, girls."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 51, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 52, "text": "Well...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Tried to understand or express that somehow, in some way. But..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 53, "text": "But that's - I wanted to ask you about that. Did you want your more sexually oriented comics to function as turn-ons, to be like pornography...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 54, "text": "...In the lives of its readers? Or did you want to..", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 55, "text": "Well, in your new book, you describe yourself as in a - as sexually in a state of arrested development. You say...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I didn't. No. It was only for myself. I had no motive to turn other people on to my sexual fantasies or my sexual preferences at all. I was just expressing what was inside myself in some way that "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 56, "text": "...All my natural compulsions are perverted and twisted.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 57, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 58, "text": "Now, when you were young, you went for a while to Catholic school. For a while...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I see myself as a very negative person, actually. I'm almost like a negative of the normal, well-adjusted guy. You know, I'm the - everything that he is, I'm not, and everything I am, he's not. You kn"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 59, "text": "...You went regularly to church. You say you went through...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 60, "text": "...A period of being fervent and devout.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 61, "text": "What - were you - what happened to all those fantasies that you had during this period when these fantasies would've just been horrifying to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Religious, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 62, "text": "Did you pray to get rid of these thoughts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 63, "text": "Now, you quote one woman in your book that's accusing you of ruining underground comics by encouraging all the younger boy artists to be bad and do comics...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I - you know, it's a funny thing. At the same time, the thoughts were - the fantasies were attractive and gave me pleasure, and at the same time, I was deeply disturbed by their sinfulness. So somethi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 64, "text": "...About their own horrible sex fantasies.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 65, "text": "Do you feel like your - you know, your comics inspired a lot of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 66, "text": "...Other comics of - yeah, of kind of, you know, bad, sexual...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Other artists?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 67, "text": "...Misogynous? Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I did."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 68, "text": "Do you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Well, it just - you know, it opened the gates for other young boys who had these - who probably were also comic nerds when they grew up, and that's why they're drawing comics. And so they also had t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 69, "text": "Before you started doing underground comics, you worked...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University. Let's get back to Terry's 2005 interview with R. Crumb, king of the '60s underground cartoonists. He create"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 70, "text": "...For American Greetings. Now...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 71, "text": "...Were you doing greeting cards? Or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 72, "text": "Gosh, I'd like to see those. Have they been exhibited?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes. I drew hundreds and hundreds of greeting cards."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 73, "text": "What were they like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 74, "text": "So what are some of the things that you drew for the greeting cards? This is - what? - birthday cards, get-well-soon cards, stuff like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They're pretty bland. They're bland. I didn't write them. I just did the drawings. They had a staff of writers. And you went to work. It was a 9-to-5 job. You punched a time clock. It was in Cleveland"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 75, "text": "Yes. I sure do.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they had this department that - at that - in the late '50s, they started making these kind of more hip-looking greeting cards. They were tall and thin, you know?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 76, "text": "And they were funny or \"funny\" in quotes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was - I was in that department."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 77, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They're funny. Yeah, they were..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 78, "text": "Now, we've talked a little bit about how influenced you feel you were by early comics. And, you know, musically, so much of the music you love is from the '20s and '30s.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Funny. And some of them actually were funny. They had a couple of writers who actually were gifted comedy writers who just got stuck in Cleveland 'cause they were alcoholics or whatever. But they w"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 79, "text": "How were you first exposed to, like, graphics of that period and music of that period?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 80, "text": "And how did you start playing banjo?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Right. Well, as a kid in the '50s, the comics were in decline. The TV wasn't that great, you know, so you start looking for older stuff. And the first older stuff that I - what - you know, what"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 81, "text": "So what are your personas like in the cartoons?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think we get into our George and Gracie bit when we're doing that. I mean, I feel like I'm, you know, playing my role somewhat. And you kind of feed me lines, and I react in a way that, you kn"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 82, "text": "Would you tell the story of how you both met?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, he's, like, from a Minnesota farm family. And I'm from, like, a long line of shmatte salesman people, you know? So yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 83, "text": "Robert, when you met Aline, did you think that she looked like one of your comic characters?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's pretty much how it was, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 84, "text": "Robert, when did you first see her work, and what did you think of it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 85, "text": "You know, as we talked about, Robert, the last time you were on FRESH AIR, you know, when you were doing your comics in the '60s...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Donna Rickles, right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 86, "text": "They were kind of very controversial among women. I mean, some women thought they were great, but a lot of women thought that they were really, you know, kind of sexist. And very few...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 87, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ooh, very few women thought they were great."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 88, "text": "Yeah, tell us what that was like. What kind of comments did you get about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was, like, a disaster."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 89, "text": "And what did you think of the way he drew women? Were you ever, you know, offended by his emphasis on large breasts and behinds and the kind of, you know, sexual obsessions that were, you know, described in the comics?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ooh."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 90, "text": "Well, Aline, you write about how when you met Robert, he was, like, really famous. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. You know, so there was something that really appealed to me in his depiction of women. He was kind of the wimpy guy that was, like, you know, idolized and was tortured by and fearful of wo"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 91, "text": "Well, then eventually, maybe. Eventually, he became famous. But you say he didn't handle it well, and you saw what fame did to him. What did it do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "At that time, I was only really known in the hippie subculture."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 92, "text": "Robert, is that an accurate picture?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a very decadent, very chaotic, disgusting, unclear, you know - for me, it was an uncomfortable scene. I actually fled from that, you know, at one point. And then Robert came and sought me out a"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 93, "text": "Aline, is that ever a burden because, Aline, like, you have all these, like, kind of, like, demons and craziness of your own, but it sounds like in the relationship, you have to, like, be the sane one?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I almost had to bathe in the woods."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 94, "text": "No, it's not like that? OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5391911", "date": "2025-05-09", "guest": "R Crumb", "title": "A conversation with R. Crumb, the king of underground comics", "question_index": 95, "text": "Well, I want to thank you both so much for talking with us. Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're welcome."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 0, "text": "Colin Blunstone, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Well, no one told me about her, the way she lied. Well, no one told me about her, how many people cried. But it's too late to say you're sorry. How would I know? Why should I care? Please do"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 1, "text": "You got to record this song after The Zombies won a contest in, I guess, St. Albans, where you were from. And you won first prize, and the first prize was an audition with Decca Records. Tell me about the contest.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, thank you very much."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 2, "text": "What did you sing in the final competition?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The competition was held in Watford Town Hall, which was about 8 miles away from St. Albans, where we all went to school. And Watford Town Hall was quite a big venue for us. It held about 2,000 people"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 3, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I was hoping you weren't going to ask me that. We sang a Zombies - sorry, a Beatles song, \"You Can't Do That.\""}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 4, "text": "Absolutely. I like that song a lot.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know? (Singing) I got something to say that might cause you pain. Do you remember that one?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 5, "text": "Why was the group named The Zombies?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I do, too. And we sang \"Summertime,\" which went on our first album, and we did it as a - sort of a jazz waltz. It was very jazzy. And we sang a couple of other songs, and I can't remember what t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, quite simply because we'd been - for the first few weeks of our career together - this was just when we were at school. I think to start off with, we were The Mustangs, and we found that there a"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 7, "text": "What do you think defined The Zombies' sound?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Crazy enough to call a band The Zombies. And so it really - I think that, in a way, it was an act of desperation. We were just trying to find something that no one else would have thought of. So we"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 8, "text": "What were the qualities of your voice that you think they wrote for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think a lot of the sound really comes from the writers. We had two unique writers in the band and very prolific writers, as well. And I think possibly - especially Rod Argent. His writing, his"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 9, "text": "Yeah, a lot of the songs you sang had more to do with vulnerability than showing how strong you were", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, especially for those days, I sang in quite a high key, you know, considering - compared with lots of other singers. Nowadays, lots of people do that. But I think that was one of the things. I th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, especially for those days, I sang in quite a high key, you know, considering - compared with lots of other singers. Nowadays, lots of people do that. But I think that was one of the things. I th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 11, "text": "Let's hear another one of The Zombies' big hits, and this is \"Tell Her No.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's right. Well, that's me."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 12, "text": "Tell us something about the song or the session.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 13, "text": "Where is the mumble in the song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think, as I remember, we'd been touring with Dionne Warwick and - who you would call Dionne Worwick (ph). And through that, we'd got very interested in Burt Bacharach songs. And I have a feeling tha"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 14, "text": "Oh, come on.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'll leave it to you to find out because I can't remember off the top of my head."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 15, "text": "OK. Why don't we play it? You listen in, and then you tell us which the line was.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I - really, I can't remember. It's something like - you play the song, and then I'll have a think about it while you're playing."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 16, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yeah, so it was the part I always...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Did you hear it?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 18, "text": "Yeah, go ahead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It sort of..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 19, "text": "I always heard it as, don't hurt me now from her arms, and I figured, well, I don't know what that means, but it's all right. I get the gist of it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It sort of sounds like, don't love her love from your arms or something, but really it's (vocalizing)."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 20, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what it means is it was a rather sleepy Zombie who was trying to do his best but was..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 21, "text": "I always loved your chorus of - you know, the tell-her-nos with your whoa-whoa-whoas in it and all that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...A little bit not with it. He was amongst those not present."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 22, "text": "Did you sing it the same way for each take, or did it always come out different?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 23, "text": "What was it like to be in the United States and, you know, billed as a British invasion band? What did that mean to you?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Colin Blunstone speaking to Terry Gross in 1998. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1998 interview with Colin Blunstone. He was lead singer of the Brit"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 24, "text": "Do your best to be honest with me about this. What's it like when you're 19, you're a young man, you're just getting started, you know, as a man in the world and sexually and all that. And here, there's, like, you go from city...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the surprise to me was the reaction. I mean, I wasn't particularly aware of the fact that we were part of the British invasion. I'm not sure if that term was used - certainly to me - at the time"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 25, "text": "Yes, right. You go from city to city, and women are screaming and screaming over you. I mean, this must really give you a sense of being something else, you know, and just...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This sounds very interesting. I - yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 26, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very lucky is the..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 27, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Expression I was thinking of."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 28, "text": "Yes", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 29, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 30, "text": "Well, I mean, how much did it go to your head and how - sometimes that type of stuff...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I enjoyed it very much. Definitely. It was wonderful."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 31, "text": "...Really deforms people's personalities.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I don't think..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 32, "text": "When you started performing, particularly when you came over to the States and started performing, did you get a lot of advice or guidance on what to wear, what kind of haircuts you should have? What kind of eyeglasses the guys in the band should wear, all that image-type of stuff?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I don't think it did too much in our band, but again, probably better if someone else judged it because we sort of had periods of success, and we had periods of not being so successful, and we w"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 33, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, we didn't, actually. And I think that image-wise, I think it was a weakness in the band. I think, you know, we were together professionally for three years, although we were together for four year"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 34, "text": "In one article that I think was written in American newspaper or magazine, an article that's quoted in the liner notes to the new Zombies box set, the band was described as clean-cut, quiet, well-mannered, intelligent. They behave like gentlemen. Was that considered good or a liability at the time to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Instead of which, we came with a very jolly little \"Tell Her No\" number for our second record, which was - didn't seem to me to follow \"She's Not There\" very well, really."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 35, "text": "...To be so clean-cut in your image, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's funny. When you met..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 36, "text": "You didn't insult them", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When you met people in the media, I think they quite liked it because we turned up on time and..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 37, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When you met people in the media, I think they quite liked it because we turned up on time and..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 38, "text": "Well, let's pause here and play something from the new Zombies box set. And this is a previously unissued recording that you made, I think, at the BBC, and it's a cover of Burt Bacharach's \"The Look Of Love.\" You had mentioned before that the band had - what? - toured with Dionne Warwick?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We didn't insult them. We didn't spit. And, you know, but when you actually put that into an article, I think it can put people off. People want rascals and rogues and naughty boys, you know, then do "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 39, "text": "Were you thinking of Dionne Warwick when you sang this yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right, the very first tour we ever did. And we were fantastic Burt Bacharach fans. I think still. I still am a big Burt Bacharach fan. He just writes the most wonderful songs."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 40, "text": "The very last hit that The Zombies had, \"Time Of The Season,\" was from an album called \"Odessey And Oracle.\" It's an album that didn't sell well at all in the United States. And the hit single, \"Time Of The Season,\" I think was released long after the album had already kind of bombed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nice and dry again (ph), all right? One, two, three, four. (Singing) When she love me, nothing in the world could touch her loving now. The light of love has gone. Can I return the joy she's dreaming "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 41, "text": "What is the story behind why this record came out in the way that it did?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 42, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, it really intrigues me because I sometimes think that records have a life of their own, because everything was against this record. We recorded it for CBS Records in London. They'd only "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 43, "text": "Well, let's hear it. This is The Zombies, \"Time Of The Season.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He said to me, Colin, you're the singer. You sing it. And it went on from there. It was quite a fiery moment. But, I mean, I'm really glad that I - he made me stand there and sing it. I would be very "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 44, "text": "So what was the condition of the band by the time this record became a big hit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) It's the time of the season when love runs high. In this time, give it to me easy. And let me try with pleasured hands to take you in the sun to promised lands, to show you everyone. It's th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 45, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Rod Argent and Chris White had been very successful as songwriters for The Zombies and for other artists as well. And I think that had fired their enthusiasm, and they knew they wanted to stay i"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 46, "text": "When \"Time Of The Season\" came out, did everybody in the band think, well, maybe we should actually stick together after all?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I just went out for a long walk."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 47, "text": "Colin Blunstone, it's really just been a pleasure to talk with you. I thank you very much...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, unfortunately, the band had finished at least an hour - at least an hour? - at least a year before \"Time Of The Season\" was a hit. And in that time, everybody was doing very different things, an"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399569", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Unidentified Announcer", "title": "The Zombies lead singer Colin Blunstone reflects on the band's unique sound", "question_index": 48, "text": "...For being with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399580", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Sean Penn", "title": "Remembering 'Glengarry Glen Ross' director James Foley", "question_index": 0, "text": "The language, as we all heard, is not exactly naturalistic. It's a really kind of stylized, like, hyper-realist form of colloquial language. When you're reading the script and figuring out what you want to get out of it as the director, how does a Mamet script read different from what you're used to seeing as a script?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Dave Moss) What did he say? He'd buy them."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399580", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Sean Penn", "title": "Remembering 'Glengarry Glen Ross' director James Foley", "question_index": 1, "text": "Did you want people to read the lines naturalistically, or were you looking for something else?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's good, which is very - is very different. And I think the most important thing when I read this screenplay, I certainly was aware of what it was, and I really began to read it with some trep"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399580", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Sean Penn", "title": "Remembering 'Glengarry Glen Ross' director James Foley", "question_index": 2, "text": "The casting is terrific in the film, but it seems to me you've brought together actors with really different kinds of acting styles. You have Jack Lemmon, who's a kind of, like, naturalistic actor, and Al Pacino is Al Pacino, you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, that was very important because I became aware early on that there was a real danger that actors could get into with language like this where they get seduced by the superficial level of gratifica"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399580", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Sean Penn", "title": "Remembering 'Glengarry Glen Ross' director James Foley", "question_index": 3, "text": "Yeah. But Ed Harris is kind of chameleon-like, in a way. He can really, like, blend into a role. But there - I don't know, like, Lemmon's of a different generation than a lot of actors in there, both in terms of his age, but also in terms of his style. And I was wondering if you consciously picked people with different acting styles, and what it was like to work with people who, it seems to me, probably take really different approaches to their characters.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399580", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Sean Penn", "title": "Remembering 'Glengarry Glen Ross' director James Foley", "question_index": 4, "text": "So you need to speak a different language to each of the actors?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, there was certainly no intention to deliberately pick people with different styles. It was really - I mean, Al and I literally sat down and made a list of who we thought were the best living act"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399580", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Sean Penn", "title": "Remembering 'Glengarry Glen Ross' director James Foley", "question_index": 5, "text": "OK, so what would you tell Jack Lemmon as opposed to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Totally, yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399580", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Sean Penn", "title": "Remembering 'Glengarry Glen Ross' director James Foley", "question_index": 6, "text": "...Al Pacino as opposed to Ed Harris?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399580", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Sean Penn", "title": "Remembering 'Glengarry Glen Ross' director James Foley", "question_index": 7, "text": "You know, in the movie, all the actors have to sell really crummy real estate. They have really bad leads. The real estate isn't good, and the people who they're supposed to sell - be selling it to don't have the money and they don't have the interest. I wonder if, like, getting assigned to or volunteering to make a movie that you don't really believe in would be the equivalent of what these guys are up against, selling stuff that isn't good.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "James Foley speaking to Terry Gross live onstage in 1992, after a screening of his then-new movie, \"Glengarry Glen Ross.\" More after a break. This is FRESH AIR. Let's return to Terry's 1992 live onsta"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399580", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Sean Penn", "title": "Remembering 'Glengarry Glen Ross' director James Foley", "question_index": 8, "text": "When you're directing a movie in which all the actors in it are playing the part of somebody who's very aggressive in selling, are they that way when you're trying to direct them? Was it intimidating at all because they're all playing these really manipulative people who have their raps and they have their ways?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's very interesting. I think exactly that. I have thought about that because I had one experience where I did that, and it was hell. I directed an episode of \"Twin Peaks,\" and it was in the second"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399580", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Sean Penn", "title": "Remembering 'Glengarry Glen Ross' director James Foley", "question_index": 9, "text": "Even the big stars?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it was - which has been my experience, really, on every film that actors really, really want to be directed, and they want interaction."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399580", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Sean Penn", "title": "Remembering 'Glengarry Glen Ross' director James Foley", "question_index": 10, "text": "Who did you push?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, well, that's what's great is that, you know, it doesn't matter who it is. You know, they just - and I really think the best actors, I mean, you know, like Al and the rest of the guys, are so inter"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399580", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Sean Penn", "title": "Remembering 'Glengarry Glen Ross' director James Foley", "question_index": 11, "text": "Was the crew member in on the fact that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I pushed them all at different times, in different ways, you know? But it's all different how you push them 'cause sometimes pushing just means, let's do another take right now, really fast. And t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399580", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Sean Penn", "title": "Remembering 'Glengarry Glen Ross' director James Foley", "question_index": 12, "text": "...That this was a fake fit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399580", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Sean Penn", "title": "Remembering 'Glengarry Glen Ross' director James Foley", "question_index": 13, "text": "So what were you throwing the fit about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes. I made sure I did that."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399580", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Sean Penn", "title": "Remembering 'Glengarry Glen Ross' director James Foley", "question_index": 14, "text": "Did it get what you wanted?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It worked."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399580", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Sean Penn", "title": "Remembering 'Glengarry Glen Ross' director James Foley", "question_index": 15, "text": "So what did it get you doing this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, definitely."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5399580", "date": "2025-05-16", "guest": "Sean Penn", "title": "Remembering 'Glengarry Glen Ross' director James Foley", "question_index": 16, "text": "Listen, it's been wonderful to have you here, and it's been - I don't know - it's been wonderful to get the kind of insights that you could give us into this film and into filmmaking in general. So thank you very, very much for being here.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It got me the actors being more immediate, that the thing you always have to fight, you know, on take 11, is that people are doing the exact same thing, and it begins to become - they begin to remembe"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5407524", "date": "2025-05-23", "guest": "Dick Van Dyke", "title": "Remembering Broadway composer Charles Strouse", "question_index": 0, "text": "When you wrote the songs for \"Annie,\" and now for \"Annie Warbucks,\" did you have to write in a range that you were confident a kid could sing?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We're going to listen back to two different conversations Terry Gross had with Charles Strouse. She first spoke with him in 1994."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5407524", "date": "2025-05-23", "guest": "Dick Van Dyke", "title": "Remembering Broadway composer Charles Strouse", "question_index": 1, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's really an interesting question because I - yes and no. The yes is a part of my musical background. I know what kids' ranges and sopranos and tenors are. The no part is that I wanted to sq"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5407524", "date": "2025-05-23", "guest": "Dick Van Dyke", "title": "Remembering Broadway composer Charles Strouse", "question_index": 2, "text": "From \"Bushel And A Peck.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...His assistant for two years. And I remember, when Frank was testing people for range, he would often have them sing, do, do-do, do-do-do, do, do-do, do-do-do, do, do-do, do-do-do, do. And..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5407524", "date": "2025-05-23", "guest": "Dick Van Dyke", "title": "Remembering Broadway composer Charles Strouse", "question_index": 3, "text": "Let me move to the first show that you did that was a real hit - one of the Broadway classics - and that's \"Bye Bye Birdie.\" I have to tell you - I was listening to the album again last night, and I hadn't heard the score in a long time. And I was just shocked to realize that I remembered words to songs when I'd completely forgotten the song existed, like \"Normal American Boy.\" I mean, I haven't thought about that song in years, and I realized, God, I know all the words to this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "From \"Bushel And A Peck.\" And because it was - he would put it in a key with the pianist that it would be out of their range. They had to go, do, do-do, do-do-do, dee, dee-dee, dee-dee-dee. But becaus"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5407524", "date": "2025-05-23", "guest": "Dick Van Dyke", "title": "Remembering Broadway composer Charles Strouse", "question_index": 4, "text": "And I bet so many people have that reaction when they hear songs from \"Bye Bye Birdie.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5407524", "date": "2025-05-23", "guest": "Dick Van Dyke", "title": "Remembering Broadway composer Charles Strouse", "question_index": 5, "text": "Let me ask you about writing \"The Telephone Hour\" from \"Bye Bye Birdie.\" And this is a series of phone conversations that the teenagers are having with each other, and it's not a straightforward song. I mean, you're basically setting a series of conversations to music with little interruptions and phones...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, fortunately, they do. It's a very, very much-performed show. At the time Lee Adams and Mike Stewart and I wrote it, we wrote it because it was offered, as you might say. We would have written, I "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5407524", "date": "2025-05-23", "guest": "Dick Van Dyke", "title": "Remembering Broadway composer Charles Strouse", "question_index": 6, "text": "...Ringing. So what were some of your considerations when you were writing the music for that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5407524", "date": "2025-05-23", "guest": "Dick Van Dyke", "title": "Remembering Broadway composer Charles Strouse", "question_index": 7, "text": "Well, here's \"The Telephone Hour\" from \"Bye Bye Birdie,\" music by my guest, Charles Strouse.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, before I just answer that, I have four kids. And it's come back to haunt me because I have four telephone lines, and it's still, every second, everybody's on the phone. Anyway, beside "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5407524", "date": "2025-05-23", "guest": "Dick Van Dyke", "title": "Remembering Broadway composer Charles Strouse", "question_index": 8, "text": "UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As Alice, singing) Hi, Margie. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #2: (As Margie, singing) Hi, Alice. What's the story, morning glory? UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As Alice, singing) What's the word, hummingbird? Have you heard about Hugo and Kim? UNIDENTIFIED ENSEMBLE #1: (As girls, singing) Did they really get pinned? Did she kiss him and cry? Did he pin the pin on, or was he too shy? Well, I heard they got pinned. UNIDENTIFIED ENSEMBLE #2: (As boys, singing) Yeah, yeah. UNIDENTIFIED ENSEMBLE #1: (As girls, singing) I was hoping they would. UNIDENTIFIED ENSEMBLE #2: (As boys, singing) Uh-huh. UNIDENTIFIED ENSEMBLE #1: (As girls, singing) Now they're living at last. UNIDENTIFIED ENSEMBLE #2: (As boys, singing) He's gone. UNIDENTIFIED ENSEMBLE #1: (As girls, singing) Going steady for good. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #3: (As Harvey, singing) Hello, Mr. Henkel. This is Harvey Johnson. Can I speak to Penelope Ann? UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #4: (As Penelope, singing ) Is it true about Kim? UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #3: (As Harvey, singing) Penelope? UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #4: (As Penelope, singing) I just knew it somehow. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #3: (As Harvey, singing) About the prom... UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #4: (As Penelope, singing) I must call her right up. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #3: (As Harvey, singing) Saturday? UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #4: (As Penelope, singing) I can't talk to you now. UNIDENTIFIED ENSEMBLE #1: (As girls, singing) Going steady. UNIDENTIFIED ENSEMBLE #2: (As boys, singing) They know it. UNIDENTIFIED ENSEMBLE #1: (As girls, singing) Going steady. UNIDENTIFIED ENSEMBLE #2: (As boys, singing) It's crazy, man. UNIDENTIFIED ENSEMBLE #1: (As girls, singing) Going steady. UNIDENTIFIED ENSEMBLE #2: (As boys, singing) They know it. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #5: (As character, singing) It won't last. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #6: (As character, singing) Not at all. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #7: (As character, singing) He's too thin. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #8: (As character, singing) She's too tall. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #3: (As Harvey, singing) Hello, Mrs. Miller. This is Harvey Johnson. Can I speak to Debra Sue? UNIDENTIFIED ENSEMBLE #2: (As boys, singing) Hiya, Hugo. Hiya, stupid. What you want to go get pinned for? UNIDENTIFIED ENSEMBLE #1: (As girls, singing) Well, I heard they got pinned. UNIDENTIFIED ENSEMBLE #2: (As boys, singing) Hey, you meathead. UNIDENTIFIED ENSEMBLE #1: (As girls, singing) I was hoping they would. UNIDENTIFIED ENSEMBLE #2: (As boys, singing) Lost your marbles? UNIDENTIFIED ENSEMBLE #1: (As girls, singing) Now they're living at last. UNIDENTIFIED ENSEMBLE #2: (As boys, singing) Are you nutty? UNIDENTIFIED ENSEMBLE #1: (As girls, singing) Going steady for... UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #3: (As Harvey, singing) Hello, Mrs. Garfein. Is Charity home from school yet? UNIDENTIFIED ENSEMBLE #1: (As girls, singing) Did they really get pinned? (As girls, singing) Going steady. UNIDENTIFIED ENSEMBLE #2: (As boys, singing) She saw him. UNIDENTIFIED ENSEMBLE #1: (As girls, singing) I was hoping they would. (As girls, singing) Going steady. UNIDENTIFIED ENSEMBLE #2: (As boys, singing) She got him. UNIDENTIFIED ENSEMBLE #1: (As girls, singing) Now they're living at last. (As girls, singing) Going steady. UNIDENTIFIED ENSEMBLE #2: (As boys, singing) She nailed him. UNIDENTIFIED ENSEMBLE #1: (As girls, singing) Going steady for good. UNIDENTIFIED ENSEMBLE #2: (As boys, singing) If they got to go, that's the way to go.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, before I just answer that, I have four kids. And it's come back to haunt me because I have four telephone lines, and it's still, every second, everybody's on the phone. Anyway, beside "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5407524", "date": "2025-05-23", "guest": "Dick Van Dyke", "title": "Remembering Broadway composer Charles Strouse", "question_index": 9, "text": "You studied with Nadia Boulanger. Did she give you any advice about pop music versus classical music?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1994 interview with composer Charles Strouse. The man who wrote the music for \"Bye Bye Birdie,\" \"Applause\" and \"Annie\" died last week at age 96."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5407524", "date": "2025-05-23", "guest": "Dick Van Dyke", "title": "Remembering Broadway composer Charles Strouse", "question_index": 10, "text": "May I make a request?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Here I am in Paris, you know, with an intimate of Stravinsky's and every American composer that you can think of having studied with this great woman. So I played \"Moon Over 83rd Street.\" And she sa"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5407524", "date": "2025-05-23", "guest": "Dick Van Dyke", "title": "Remembering Broadway composer Charles Strouse", "question_index": 11, "text": "Could you sing one of the songs that you played for her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5407524", "date": "2025-05-23", "guest": "Dick Van Dyke", "title": "Remembering Broadway composer Charles Strouse", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wait a second. Welcome home, able-bodied seaman Strouse. (Vocalizing). No, I can't sing that one."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5407524", "date": "2025-05-23", "guest": "Dick Van Dyke", "title": "Remembering Broadway composer Charles Strouse", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Schrafts right below. Moon over 80 Street - 83rd Street, my heart's all aglow."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5407524", "date": "2025-05-23", "guest": "Dick Van Dyke", "title": "Remembering Broadway composer Charles Strouse", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You, Janet, in the lamplight, I hear something call. I hear something dull. You - da, da, da, da, da. I'm yours, body and soul. I think that was the last one. It was meant partly as a jest. "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5407524", "date": "2025-05-23", "guest": "Dick Van Dyke", "title": "Remembering Broadway composer Charles Strouse", "question_index": 15, "text": "So but it helped you find out that that's what you should be doing, is writing pop tunes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's a first performance for you."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5407524", "date": "2025-05-23", "guest": "Dick Van Dyke", "title": "Remembering Broadway composer Charles Strouse", "question_index": 16, "text": "I want to close with the story behind one of your most famous songs, and this is the - this song from \"Annie: Tomorrow.\" Tell us about writing this song, what you intended when you wrote it. And this song's really taken on a life of its own. This song seems to alternate between major and minor keys, no?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was her genius. That's why I can laugh at it. I can also laugh at it 'cause I've had, you know, some successful shows. But her genius was really taking a young kid like me. I was quite young when"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5407524", "date": "2025-05-23", "guest": "Dick Van Dyke", "title": "Remembering Broadway composer Charles Strouse", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it does. It's - well, there are a number of feelings I have about the song. The first one always had been and still stays with me. It's the one song in this show of a personal nature in the show "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5407524", "date": "2025-05-23", "guest": "Dick Van Dyke", "title": "Remembering Broadway composer Charles Strouse", "question_index": 18, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And Martin and I were looking for a song of hope at that moment, and I played him - actually, it wasn't a whole song. I had written it for a movie, this theme for an industrial film that I did, and I "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5407524", "date": "2025-05-23", "guest": "Dick Van Dyke", "title": "Remembering Broadway composer Charles Strouse", "question_index": 19, "text": "So, this is a trunk song that every lyricist you worked with rejected, and it finally went on to be a big success?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...When Andrea sang it, but I thought it was the set. Martin had made a nice move with the set that had changed. She went behind, and then she wasn't there. So I always thought, gee, they're applaudin"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5407524", "date": "2025-05-23", "guest": "Dick Van Dyke", "title": "Remembering Broadway composer Charles Strouse", "question_index": 20, "text": "Right. Well, let's hear it. And let me say it's been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you very much for joining us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "At that point, every lyricist, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5407524", "date": "2025-05-23", "guest": "Dick Van Dyke", "title": "Remembering Broadway composer Charles Strouse", "question_index": 21, "text": "Charles Strouse, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Is there a story behind writing \"Night Song\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Joe Wellington, singing) Summer, not a bit of breeze. Neon signs are shining through the tired trees. Lovers walking to and fro. Everyone has someone and a place to go. Listen, hear the cars go pa"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5407524", "date": "2025-05-23", "guest": "Dick Van Dyke", "title": "Remembering Broadway composer Charles Strouse", "question_index": 22, "text": "Wish you could be where?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A very intimate story, and that is I remember lying on the grass in the park, looking up at the skyline in New York, saying, I wish I could be there, and I wish I had some friends."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5407524", "date": "2025-05-23", "guest": "Dick Van Dyke", "title": "Remembering Broadway composer Charles Strouse", "question_index": 23, "text": "Oh. So you were yearning while writing this song about yearning.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, way up on top."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5407524", "date": "2025-05-23", "guest": "Dick Van Dyke", "title": "Remembering Broadway composer Charles Strouse", "question_index": 24, "text": "How were you first brought in to do the music for \"Golden Boy\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was yearning, and I was remembering that period of my life very strongly."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5407524", "date": "2025-05-23", "guest": "Dick Van Dyke", "title": "Remembering Broadway composer Charles Strouse", "question_index": 25, "text": "Let's play a song from the original cast production with Sammy Davis singing. And this is a song called \"I Want To Be With You.\" Sammy Davis Jr., as the boxer, falls in love with a white woman in the 1964 version of \"Golden Boy.\" I'd like you to describe the context that this song is performed in, in the musical.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's really because of the producer, a man by the name of Hillard Elkins, who is a real - who was a real operator. And he somehow got Sammy Davis to agree to do it if Clifford Odets did it. And "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5407524", "date": "2025-05-23", "guest": "Dick Van Dyke", "title": "Remembering Broadway composer Charles Strouse", "question_index": 26, "text": "Well, let's hear the first part of this song. And this is Sammy Davis Jr. from the original cast recording of \"Golden Boy.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This particular scene where they sing \"I Want To Be With You\" caused us to receive a lot of venomous mail, particularly in Philadelphia, where we opened. As a matter of fact, after the show opened, we"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5407524", "date": "2025-05-23", "guest": "Dick Van Dyke", "title": "Remembering Broadway composer Charles Strouse", "question_index": 27, "text": "Sammy Davis Jr. from the original cast recording of \"Golden Boy,\" with music composed by my guest Charles Strouse, lyrics by Lee Adams. Did you get a sense of what it was like for Sammy Davis to be the subject of controversy in real life because he was married to May Britt, a white woman, and to, at the same time, be the subject of controversy because he was portraying onstage a Black man in love with a white woman? You know, 'cause it was going on in both, you know, his stage life and his real life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Joe Wellington, singing) Lorna, Lorna and Joe, somehow it sounds so right. Somehow you feel what I feel, too. I want to be with you. I want to be with you. I want to be with you. After all the nig"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5407524", "date": "2025-05-23", "guest": "Dick Van Dyke", "title": "Remembering Broadway composer Charles Strouse", "question_index": 28, "text": "I'd like to hear what it was like when you had to follow Sammy Davis Jr. around Vegas playing him demos of your new song so he could give them his approval.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Composer Charles Strouse speaking to Terry Gross in 2002. He died last week at the age of 96. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2002 interview with Charles Strouse, who "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5407524", "date": "2025-05-23", "guest": "Dick Van Dyke", "title": "Remembering Broadway composer Charles Strouse", "question_index": 29, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we played the songs, and invariably, Sammy was late. Lee Adams, in particular, was not a late owl, and he would say, I'll meet you after the show at 1 in the morning. And we would be lucky somet"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5407524", "date": "2025-05-23", "guest": "Dick Van Dyke", "title": "Remembering Broadway composer Charles Strouse", "question_index": 30, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Which is an odd thing to add to my composer's resume."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5407524", "date": "2025-05-23", "guest": "Dick Van Dyke", "title": "Remembering Broadway composer Charles Strouse", "question_index": 31, "text": "So when you first met Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin and all those guys, naked in a steam room, were you also expected to demo your songs for Sammy Davis?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But there were all kinds of odd incidents like that."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5407524", "date": "2025-05-23", "guest": "Dick Van Dyke", "title": "Remembering Broadway composer Charles Strouse", "question_index": 32, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no. That was a - this would be a part of Sammy that's typical of him and probably partially meaningless to anybody else. He brought me down there. He said he wanted to see me for a conference. And"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5407524", "date": "2025-05-23", "guest": "Dick Van Dyke", "title": "Remembering Broadway composer Charles Strouse", "question_index": 33, "text": "Let's talk about another one of your tracks. I want to play \"Hard Knock Life,\" which really surprised me when I first heard it because you sample the song \"Hard Knock Life\" from the Broadway show \"Annie,\" which I thought was a real surprising choice...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Charles Strouse speaking to Terry Gross in 2002. We couldn't end this tribute without considering the impact of perhaps his most enduring musical. In 2010, Terry spoke with the rapper Jay-Z about how "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5407524", "date": "2025-05-23", "guest": "Dick Van Dyke", "title": "Remembering Broadway composer Charles Strouse", "question_index": 34, "text": "...For you. Yes, to say the least. So how did you decide to use that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To say the least."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5407524", "date": "2025-05-23", "guest": "Dick Van Dyke", "title": "Remembering Broadway composer Charles Strouse", "question_index": 35, "text": "So let's hear the song, and then we'll talk some more about it. So this is \"Hard Knock Life (Ghetto Anthem)\" by Jay-Z.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what happened was my sister's name is Andrea Carter and we call her Annie, for short. So, when the TV version of the play, you know, it came on, and it was like a story called \"Annie.\" I was imm"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5407524", "date": "2025-05-23", "guest": "Dick Van Dyke", "title": "Remembering Broadway composer Charles Strouse", "question_index": 36, "text": "That's \"Hard Knock Life (Ghetto Anthem)\" by my guest Jay-Z. So, you tell a great story in the book about how you got the rights to use that song - to use the song from \"Annie,\" \"Hard Knock Life.\" Would you tell the story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) It's a hard knock life."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5407524", "date": "2025-05-23", "guest": "Dick Van Dyke", "title": "Remembering Broadway composer Charles Strouse", "question_index": 37, "text": "How did you find out that \"Hard Knock Life\" was going to be sampled for a rap record?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Jay-Z speaking with Terry Gross in 2010 about his \"Hard Knock Life (Ghetto Anthem).\" When Terry talked to Charles Strouse back in 2002, she asked him about that version."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5407524", "date": "2025-05-23", "guest": "Dick Van Dyke", "title": "Remembering Broadway composer Charles Strouse", "question_index": 38, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I found it out just through hearing it and my publisher, but I'll tell you something. He said something. I never met Jay-Z, or, as Andrew Lloyd Webber said in a phone call to me, he said, Jay-Zed (ph)"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, James Patterson, has sold over 400 million copies of his many books. Those books include the \"Alex Cross\" detective series, the \"Women's Murder Club\" series, and \"Maximum Ride.\" \"Alex Cross\" was spun off into three films, two starring Morgan Freeman and another starring Tyler Perry. An Amazon Prime video series called \"Cross\" has been renewed for a second season. Patterson has co-authored books with Bill Clinton and Dolly Parton. His second collaboration with Clinton will be published this summer.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 1, "text": "Patterson's also written nonfiction books about the Kennedys, John Lennon, Muhammad Ali and Jeffrey Epstein, as well as books for children and young adults. His new book, \"The #1 Dad Book,\" is addressed to new fathers who need some advice. Back when Patterson was starting to write, he took a job as a junior copywriter at the J. Walter Thompson advertising agency. He rose to the top, becoming CEO and then head of the agency's North America division. If you're wondering how he's managed to do all this, he typically works with collaborators. Patterson writes an elaborate outline of the story. The collaborators write the sentences. He describes this in more detail in his 2022 memoir called \"James Patterson By James Patterson.\" I'd be remiss if I didn't also mention that he's now collaborating on a thriller with the star YouTuber and influencer known as MrBeast. As you can guess, Patterson is pretty rich. He's also a generous philanthropist, donating over $7 million to schools and classroom libraries around the country, establishing over 400 teacher and writer education scholarships at 21 colleges and universities, and giving over $2 million to independent bookstores. In recognition of his work, on May 14, James Patterson received the Lifelong Learning Award from WHYY, the public radio and TV station where FRESH AIR is produced. That was the occasion for our interview, which we recorded in front of an audience.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 2, "text": "First of all, congratulations, and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm here to honor James. I love the guy. What can I tell you?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 3, "text": "...Thank you for doing this interview.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 4, "text": "So in your memoir, you describe how you hear voices in your head, basically telling you stories. I'd really like to know what that feels like, what that experience is like.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I am not worthy. I am not worthy."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 5, "text": "No, I do.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, you don't. You think you do."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 6, "text": "And start writing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Until the voices won't stop and they keep you up at night. You know, it's an interesting thing. You talk about voice. All these books have a different voice. The father book has a voice. The autobiogr"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 7, "text": "So another thing that I learned from your memoir, which I found really fascinating because it's so different from the work that you do and from the stories that keep coming to you in your head. When you were young, before you became a writer, when you first became really interested in reading, you read a lot of Thomas Merton, who - wasn't he, like, the now-famous Trappist monk...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just - yeah, pretty much. Sometimes I do write, too."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 8, "text": "...Who wrote the bestseller \"Seven Storey Mountain,\" which was kind of required reading for a lot of people in college, like in the '60s and '70s. But anyway, you actually went to the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 9, "text": "...Monastery...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Gethsemani."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 11, "text": "...That he lived in for many years. And I think you seriously considered becoming a Trappist monk.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In Kentucky, yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 12, "text": "Yeah, they don't talk. It's silence", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I didn't do that, but I was in graduate school. I was at Vanderbilt. And I was kind of wandering around thinking about what I - it was during Vietnam, so it was a scary time for anybody in school "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 13, "text": "...And work and prayer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...They have one priest or brother..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 14, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I remember I talked to - he said, well, why are you here? And I said, well, you know, I'm doing a little too many drugs and, you know, whatever. And I just need to kind of straighten my life out a lit"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 15, "text": "One of the things I find interesting about spending 10 days in the Trappist...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But they did let me stay. They let me stay for about 10 days. And I left there saying, OK, if I want to be a writer, I have to do certain things, and I'm going to do this somehow. I'm going to try to "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 16, "text": "...Monastery is because they practice silence, and because you're always hearing stories and voices in your head.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 17, "text": "And both the silence and the need to, like, write, to always have, like, more words and more stories, seems so kind of opposite from, like, the attention to silence in the monastery. So it seemed so different from what your nature is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 18, "text": "You mentioned you were doing too many drugs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just wanted to think - and I mean, they're not totally in totally - I mean, they sing. It's a fascinating life. I mean, they go to bed at, like, 7:30. They get up at 3 or so. They have a mass or wha"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 19, "text": "How did being an usher at the Fillmore East figure into that", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 20, "text": "? And for anyone who doesn't know the Fillmore East, that was the East Coast equivalent of the Fillmore West, which is where they had all of the, like, psychedelic concerts, you know, whether it was the Grateful Dead or the Jefferson Airplane.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 21, "text": "I think they were there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 22, "text": "Yeah, and The Doors.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And Jimi Hendrix. The Doors. Yeah, yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 23, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 24, "text": "You're kidding. Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But the Fillmore East, I did that for a couple of years. And actually, Robert Mapplethorpe was one of the ushers."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 25, "text": "So people are always wondering, like, how do you do it? How do you write so many books?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 26, "text": "And the answer is you collaborate.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 27, "text": "It's part of the answer, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's part of the answer."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 28, "text": "The music and lyrics?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And part of it is you love to do it. I - somebody said you're lucky if you find something you like to do, and then it's a miracle if somebody will pay you to do it. But even before people were paying "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 29, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded with the prolific and bestselling author James Patterson. We spoke onstage at WHYY, where FRESH AIR is produced. There's more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah. I mean, sort of the music, yes. Yeah, yeah, I would always put a tune to it, whatever I was, you know - and the storyline, whatever the heck it was. And I would just, you know, I don't kno"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 30, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded May 14 with James Patterson, who sold more than 400 million books. They include the Alex Cross detective series, the Women's Murder Club series and \"Maximum Ride.\" He's coauthored bestsellers with Bill Clinton and Dolly Parton and is now collaborating with YouTube star MrBeast. We spoke onstage at WHYY. At what point in your writing career did you think that it would be helpful or a good idea or more productive or whatever to work with collaborators? And then maybe you can explain your process for doing that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah. I mean, sort of the music, yes. Yeah, yeah, I would always put a tune to it, whatever I was, you know - and the storyline, whatever the heck it was. And I would just, you know, I don't kno"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 31, "text": "Yeah, I read the obit.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And either save us or destroy us depending on, you know, the mood that day. It just seemed a natural thing to me. And the first one actually was a little golf book, and it's a guy that I knew from the"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 32, "text": "You describe yourself as being like the storyteller, but you enjoy telling the stories.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God. You know, and such a healthy-looking man, you know, and a wonderful person. At any rate, that was very sad for us, and obviously it's tragic for his family."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 33, "text": "You know, coming up with the stories...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 34, "text": "...Doing, like, a very elaborate 30-, 50- or 60-page...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 35, "text": "...Outline and then doing several drafts.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thirty-, 40-, 50-page, yeah, outlines. Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 36, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I mean, on this tour, I'm working on three outlines."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 37, "text": "But then you leave the actual sentences in the book...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, man."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 38, "text": "But you leave the sentences in the book to the person you're collaborating with. At what point did you think that you'd stick to the stories and leave the sentences to someone else? Correct me if I'm getting that wrong.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wait till you see what happens to Alex Cross, I got to tell you."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 39, "text": "Am I compartmentalizing too much?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no. Yeah, no, I didn't. I mean, a lot of times, especially in the beginning..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 40, "text": "Are these things that your father did or did not do for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So what I did is just try to - and that's not a joke, but it's serious. I mean, because I wanted to be pragmatic about it. And what I've heard - and I've never had this experience before, but especial"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 41, "text": "He apologized for not hugging you or for something else?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My dad, the only time - and this isn't totally true, but my only hug I ever got from my dad was on his deathbed. And he apologized and he cried, which he never did, never died."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 42, "text": "Was he?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He apologized for just not being as close as he thought he should've been. And I just said you're a great dad, you're a great dad."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 43, "text": "What did your father end up doing to make a living?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Look, he grew up in the Newburgh poorhouse. It was called a pogey. His mother was a charwoman there. His father had disappeared. He never knew his father, and he didn't have the experience to be a dad"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 44, "text": "Sure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the last thing he did after he retired - he retired at 60, 61 - he actually wrote a novel. It didn't get published, but it was pretty good, it was pretty good. And that's what he wanted to do. H"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 45, "text": "So I want to ask you about your \"Alex Cross\" series, which is, like, your longest-running series of books.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You don't go to your left very well. You're good. I could dunk in high school. Here's a little white guy that could dunk. But you're not going to make it. So - but you are going to be able to do stuff"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 46, "text": "Did you know that you'd be capable of writing mysteries and thrillers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 47, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. And I - somewhere in there - I think it was when I were at Vanderbilt - I read - and I didn't read a lot of commercial novels at that point, but I read \"Day Of The Jackal\" and \"The Exorcist,\" and "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 48, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sorry."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 49, "text": "So another question about religion - you know, we talked a little about the Trappist monastery...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't have the confidence, you know? And that's a big deal. That's - and fortunately, down there, there was a professor, and I took one writing course, and he said, you have it. You have that. And "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 50, "text": "...That you spent 10 days in and how it helped you decide to be a writer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 51, "text": "Do you maintain any form of religion in your life? - if that's not too personal to ask.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 52, "text": "You were an altar boy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, no, you know, yeah, something, something, some connection that, you know - certainly the idea that things are bigger than me, which, I think - that isn't necessarily religious, but I think - it'"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 53, "text": "What did it mean to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was. I served mass every day for, like, two -years in a row. This is when - I don't know how old I was - 9, 10 years old. Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 54, "text": "Oh, really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 55, "text": "So, you know, I just really appreciate, like, I think so many, many, many people do, all the philanthropy you've done - the support of literacy, the support of independent bookstores, scholarships...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And we didn't have money, either. I mean, that was the other - like, oh, no. And my father was not Catholic, so he was especially not keen on that."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 56, "text": "...Funding school libraries. One thing I find especially endearing which you've done is giving bonuses to independent booksellers. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 57, "text": "Yeah, that's such a nice touch because I'm sure they're all not paid very well. And it's such a personal thing to do. It's like acknowledging not just the institution or an abstract thing like loving reading. It's honoring the individuals who do the work.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And librarians a little bit, too, yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 58, "text": "How did you come up with that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, and..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 59, "text": "James Patterson, I want to thank you for this, and congratulations on the Lifelong Learning Award.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. But you know, the - but the other piece of it, which just to your point - no, no, no - to your point is, I get the nicest notes from people. Of all the things I do, they'll send these no"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413207", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "James Patterson", "title": "Bestselling author James Patterson on the voices that keep him up at night", "question_index": 60, "text": "James Patterson's latest book is \"The #1 Dad Book.\" The new novel he wrote with Bill Clinton will be published later this summer. Our thanks to WHYYs Nancy Stuski, Ali L'Esperance and Yvette Murray. Coming up, if you think accordion is a corny and out-of-date instrument, stay tuned for some music that I think will change your mind. Jazz critic Martin Johnson will review the new solo accordion album by Will Holshouser and will feature my interview with him. He brought his accordion and played. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, thank you, thank you."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413209", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "Martin Johnson", "title": "Accordionist Will Holshouser goes solo -- and soulful -- on 'The Lone Wild Bird'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The music of Will Holshouser defies easy categorization. Streaming services have variously filed his albums as jazz, folk, even easy listening. There's more than a grain of truth to these classifications, but adjectives like elegant, ebullient and saucy fit much better, and maybe ambitious. Holshouser is an accordionist, and his new recording, \"The Lone Wild Bird,\" is a solo effort, a rarity for a virtuoso on his instrument. Martin Johnson has this review, and after Martin's review, we'll hear my interview with Holshouser. He brought his accordion and played.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413209", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "Martin Johnson", "title": "Accordionist Will Holshouser goes solo -- and soulful -- on 'The Lone Wild Bird'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Martin Johnson writes about jazz for the Wall Street Journal and DownBeat. He reviewed \"The Lone Wild Bird\" by Will Holshouser. I recorded an interview with Holshouser a few years ago, during which he played his accordion. We'll hear that after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There aren't many rules for what you can and cannot do on a solo accordion recording, but it seems essential to address the Cajun tradition, and Holshouser covers the New Orleans waltz \"Chez Seychelle"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413209", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "Martin Johnson", "title": "Accordionist Will Holshouser goes solo -- and soulful -- on 'The Lone Wild Bird'", "question_index": 2, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Now that we've heard Martin Johnson's enthusiastic review of the new solo album \"The Lone Wild Bird,\" by accordion player Will Holshouser, let's hear from Holshouser. I spoke with him in 2014 when his album \"Introducing Musette Explosion\" was released. It features French waltzes and dances, as well as original songs in the musette style. He brought his accordion to the studio and played.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There aren't many rules for what you can and cannot do on a solo accordion recording, but it seems essential to address the Cajun tradition, and Holshouser covers the New Orleans waltz \"Chez Seychelle"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413209", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "Martin Johnson", "title": "Accordionist Will Holshouser goes solo -- and soulful -- on 'The Lone Wild Bird'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Since I think most people don't have an accordion at home and don't get to see accordion very much, I'm assuming a lot of people aren't really familiar with what an accordion can really do and how it works. So give us a little tour of your very beautiful accordion.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There aren't many rules for what you can and cannot do on a solo accordion recording, but it seems essential to address the Cajun tradition, and Holshouser covers the New Orleans waltz \"Chez Seychelle"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413209", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "Martin Johnson", "title": "Accordionist Will Holshouser goes solo -- and soulful -- on 'The Lone Wild Bird'", "question_index": 4, "text": "So manipulate the bellows differently to give us a sense of how the tone changes depending on how you're - what's the verb for what you do with the bellows", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The nickname for it - one nickname for it is the squeezebox. So as you move the bellows back and forth, that generates the air. And then when you push the keys on the right hand or the buttons on the "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413209", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "Martin Johnson", "title": "Accordionist Will Holshouser goes solo -- and soulful -- on 'The Lone Wild Bird'", "question_index": 5, "text": "? What's the right verb?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The nickname for it - one nickname for it is the squeezebox. So as you move the bellows back and forth, that generates the air. And then when you push the keys on the right hand or the buttons on the "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413209", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "Martin Johnson", "title": "Accordionist Will Holshouser goes solo -- and soulful -- on 'The Lone Wild Bird'", "question_index": 6, "text": "Bellowing, all right", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Bellowing"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413209", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "Martin Johnson", "title": "Accordionist Will Holshouser goes solo -- and soulful -- on 'The Lone Wild Bird'", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Bellowing"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413209", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "Martin Johnson", "title": "Accordionist Will Holshouser goes solo -- and soulful -- on 'The Lone Wild Bird'", "question_index": 8, "text": "So that's going from slow to fast, in terms of what you're doing with the bellows?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I suppose, but yeah. Well, you know, it's mostly dynamics. But you can - the sound of the note does change as you change the air pressure. (Playing accordion)."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413209", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "Martin Johnson", "title": "Accordionist Will Holshouser goes solo -- and soulful -- on 'The Lone Wild Bird'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, as you push harder, it gets louder, as you push more air across the reed. And there's some special effects. If you open the valve halfway and push the air really hard, it can bend the pitch. (Pl"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413209", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "Martin Johnson", "title": "Accordionist Will Holshouser goes solo -- and soulful -- on 'The Lone Wild Bird'", "question_index": 10, "text": "I didn't know you could bend notes on accordion. To bend notes on a keyboard instrument...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413209", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "Martin Johnson", "title": "Accordionist Will Holshouser goes solo -- and soulful -- on 'The Lone Wild Bird'", "question_index": 11, "text": "...That's not a synthesizer, that's pretty", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413209", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "Martin Johnson", "title": "Accordionist Will Holshouser goes solo -- and soulful -- on 'The Lone Wild Bird'", "question_index": 12, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413209", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "Martin Johnson", "title": "Accordionist Will Holshouser goes solo -- and soulful -- on 'The Lone Wild Bird'", "question_index": 13, "text": "Pretty good. So I should ask you to play a song for us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413209", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "Martin Johnson", "title": "Accordionist Will Holshouser goes solo -- and soulful -- on 'The Lone Wild Bird'", "question_index": 14, "text": "And your new album, \"Introducing Musette Explosion,\" is all musette, which is a type of French song. Tell us what the genre is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413209", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "Martin Johnson", "title": "Accordionist Will Holshouser goes solo -- and soulful -- on 'The Lone Wild Bird'", "question_index": 15, "text": "In the tradition that Django Reinhardt was from?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's basically French dance hall music from the first half of the 20th century. And it's lead - accordion is the lead instrument. Guitar is also very important. And one of the standard forms in "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413209", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "Martin Johnson", "title": "Accordionist Will Holshouser goes solo -- and soulful -- on 'The Lone Wild Bird'", "question_index": 16, "text": "Banjo? Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. His first gig was playing banjo in musette dance bands."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413209", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "Martin Johnson", "title": "Accordionist Will Holshouser goes solo -- and soulful -- on 'The Lone Wild Bird'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Oh. You have banjo - your guitar player, Matt Munisteri, plays banjo on some of the tracks.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413209", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "Martin Johnson", "title": "Accordionist Will Holshouser goes solo -- and soulful -- on 'The Lone Wild Bird'", "question_index": 18, "text": "On your album. Oh, OK, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413209", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "Martin Johnson", "title": "Accordionist Will Holshouser goes solo -- and soulful -- on 'The Lone Wild Bird'", "question_index": 19, "text": "So you should play one of the musettes from your album for us. Do you want to do \"Swing Valse\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413209", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "Martin Johnson", "title": "Accordionist Will Holshouser goes solo -- and soulful -- on 'The Lone Wild Bird'", "question_index": 20, "text": "What are you doing to your accordion", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. That sounds great."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413209", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "Martin Johnson", "title": "Accordionist Will Holshouser goes solo -- and soulful -- on 'The Lone Wild Bird'", "question_index": 21, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. That sounds great."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413209", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "Martin Johnson", "title": "Accordionist Will Holshouser goes solo -- and soulful -- on 'The Lone Wild Bird'", "question_index": 22, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I was just making sure that I had the right register on."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413209", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "Martin Johnson", "title": "Accordionist Will Holshouser goes solo -- and soulful -- on 'The Lone Wild Bird'", "question_index": 23, "text": "OK. And this is my guest, Will Holshouser.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because you can - depending on which register you have, you can get, you know, in a different octave. Each one has a sort of different sound or a different flavor."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413209", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "Martin Johnson", "title": "Accordionist Will Holshouser goes solo -- and soulful -- on 'The Lone Wild Bird'", "question_index": 24, "text": "That's great. That's just so beautiful.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right. This is \"Swing Valse,\" written by Baro Ferret and Gus Viseur. (Playing accordion)."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413209", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "Martin Johnson", "title": "Accordionist Will Holshouser goes solo -- and soulful -- on 'The Lone Wild Bird'", "question_index": 25, "text": "So how were you first introduced to the songs known as musette?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413209", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "Martin Johnson", "title": "Accordionist Will Holshouser goes solo -- and soulful -- on 'The Lone Wild Bird'", "question_index": 26, "text": "We'll hear more of my interview with Will Holshouser, and he'll play more music, after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Through reissues that came out in the 1990s - there's a great label in France called Fremeaux And Associates. So I heard them, and I was struck by this music and kind of blown away by - how do they ge"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413209", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "Martin Johnson", "title": "Accordionist Will Holshouser goes solo -- and soulful -- on 'The Lone Wild Bird'", "question_index": 27, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with accordion player Will Holshouser in 2014, after the release of his album \"Introducing Musette Explosion.\" He has a new solo album called \"The Lone Wild Bird.\" There's something very old-fashioned and avant-garde about the accordion, and me - so if I can explain that (ph), it seems old-fashioned because in this era of, like, digital instruments and everything, like, you're physically pumping air into it, you know? You're doing it manually to get the air over the reeds to create the sound. But there's something kind of avant-garde about it because you can get all these really unusual overtones through this array of buttons, almost as if it was some kind of either synthesizer or organ where you're - you know, you're just creating unusual harmonics.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Through reissues that came out in the 1990s - there's a great label in France called Fremeaux And Associates. So I heard them, and I was struck by this music and kind of blown away by - how do they ge"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413209", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "Martin Johnson", "title": "Accordionist Will Holshouser goes solo -- and soulful -- on 'The Lone Wild Bird'", "question_index": 28, "text": "Go, show us some effects you can get.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's true. And especially, yeah, dissonance on the accordion, playing notes very close together, can bring out those overtones. And there's a whole range of effects you can get."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413209", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "Martin Johnson", "title": "Accordionist Will Holshouser goes solo -- and soulful -- on 'The Lone Wild Bird'", "question_index": 29, "text": "I like that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right, well, here's a - here's some very high notes with special overtones. (Playing accordion). And if you shake the bellows, you can make it... (Playing accordion). ...Shimmer like that. You can"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413209", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "Martin Johnson", "title": "Accordionist Will Holshouser goes solo -- and soulful -- on 'The Lone Wild Bird'", "question_index": 30, "text": "I like that, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Flop around on the keyboard like a fish. There's rhythmic things you can do with the bellows. (Playing accordion). Sometimes, when I play for my daughter's class, I'll do a train effect, and the ki"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413209", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "Martin Johnson", "title": "Accordionist Will Holshouser goes solo -- and soulful -- on 'The Lone Wild Bird'", "question_index": 31, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Playing accordion)."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413209", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "Martin Johnson", "title": "Accordionist Will Holshouser goes solo -- and soulful -- on 'The Lone Wild Bird'", "question_index": 32, "text": "I love it. I love it. There's an original song I'm going to ask you to play that you do on your new album \"The Musette Explosion.\" And this is an original song in the style of a French musette. And it's called \"Chanson Pop,\" which translates to pop song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Anyway, so yeah, that's - and that's done by shaking the bellows back and forth. So yeah, there are all kinds of things. You can do - you know, you can use the breath, the breathing sound. (Playing ac"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413209", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "Martin Johnson", "title": "Accordionist Will Holshouser goes solo -- and soulful -- on 'The Lone Wild Bird'", "question_index": 33, "text": "So would you talk about composing it? And there's two different parts to the song. It's, like, a six-minute piece on the recording. I'm going to ask you to play an excerpt of the opening melody, and then we'll talk about that, and then we'll play an excerpt. I'm going to ask you to play an excerpt from deeper in.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413209", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "Martin Johnson", "title": "Accordionist Will Holshouser goes solo -- and soulful -- on 'The Lone Wild Bird'", "question_index": 34, "text": "So - but give us an overview of this piece and writing it and what your intention was.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413209", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "Martin Johnson", "title": "Accordionist Will Holshouser goes solo -- and soulful -- on 'The Lone Wild Bird'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Perfect. Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one of the kinds of work that I've really enjoyed doing as an accordionist in New York over the last, you know, 20 years or so is accompanying singers, and I've had great pleasure to accompany s"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413209", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "Martin Johnson", "title": "Accordionist Will Holshouser goes solo -- and soulful -- on 'The Lone Wild Bird'", "question_index": 36, "text": "Oh that's beautiful. And that's Will Holshouser in our studio, playing the opening of his song \"Chanson Pop.\" And I know you said that that's based on, like, chanson, French song. To me, it sounds like it's also based on hymns.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. (Playing accordion)."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413209", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "Martin Johnson", "title": "Accordionist Will Holshouser goes solo -- and soulful -- on 'The Lone Wild Bird'", "question_index": 37, "text": "And I know that your father was a minister.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413209", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "Martin Johnson", "title": "Accordionist Will Holshouser goes solo -- and soulful -- on 'The Lone Wild Bird'", "question_index": 38, "text": "And I imagine you heard a lot of hymns growing up. Do you hear a little hymn-like quality in that piece?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413209", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "Martin Johnson", "title": "Accordionist Will Holshouser goes solo -- and soulful -- on 'The Lone Wild Bird'", "question_index": 39, "text": "Aren't I?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're a very perceptive listener."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413209", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "Martin Johnson", "title": "Accordionist Will Holshouser goes solo -- and soulful -- on 'The Lone Wild Bird'", "question_index": 40, "text": "Was it a combination of beautiful music in a sacred place?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", absolutely. And that's really - for me, that's almost the beginning - very beginning of my musical life, my interest in music, is going to church as a kid and hearing these hymns and feeling somethi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413209", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "Martin Johnson", "title": "Accordionist Will Holshouser goes solo -- and soulful -- on 'The Lone Wild Bird'", "question_index": 41, "text": "My interview with Will Holshouser was recorded in 2014. He has a new solo accordion album called \"The Lone Wild Bird.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll talk about how JD Vance rose from a struggling Ohio steel town to Yale Law School to Venture Capital and now the vice presidency. Along the way, he shed old convictions and adopted new ones, some deeply divisive. We'll talk with Atlantic magazine staffwriter George Packer about Vance's transformation and what it reveals about the future of American politics. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think so, yeah. It was, you know, clearly people coming together to be quiet and to think about serious things. And the - my first music teacher was the artist in residence at our church, and he wro"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5413209", "date": "2025-05-27", "guest": "Martin Johnson", "title": "Accordionist Will Holshouser goes solo -- and soulful -- on 'The Lone Wild Bird'", "question_index": 42, "text": "To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at @nprfreshair. FRESH AIR'S executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering today from Adam Staniszewski. Our managing producer is Sam Briger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson (ph). Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think so, yeah. It was, you know, clearly people coming together to be quiet and to think about serious things. And the - my first music teacher was the artist in residence at our church, and he wro"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5422325", "date": "2025-06-04", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump's billion-dollar war on Harvard, explained", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. As the face-off between Harvard University and the Trump administration continues, we're going to talk with Harvard Law professor Noah Feldman, who specializes in constitutional studies and the First Amendment. Here's what President Trump had to say last week.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5422325", "date": "2025-06-04", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump's billion-dollar war on Harvard, explained", "question_index": 1, "text": "He went on to say...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Harvard is treating our country with great disrespect, and all they're doing is getting in deeper and deeper and deeper. They've got to behave themselves. You know, I'm looking out for the country and"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5422325", "date": "2025-06-04", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump's billion-dollar war on Harvard, explained", "question_index": 2, "text": "The Trump administration has frozen between 2 1/2 and $3 billion in Harvard grants and contracts, and President Trump intends to cancel any remaining financial contracts. The administration is also trying to stop the university's ability to enroll foreign students and to end Harvard's tax exempt status. Harvard is facing about eight investigations from at least six agencies, including the Justice Department, the Department of Education, Homeland Security and Health and Human Services. In response, Harvard is suing the Trump administration. This all began with a task force commissioned by President Trump to investigate if Harvard was doing enough to combat antisemitism on campus. During the on-campus protests against Israel's bombing of Gaza last year, some of the protesters and some of the slogans chanted were accused of being antisemitic, and many Jewish students said they felt unsafe. Feldman is the Felix Frankfurter Professor of Law at Harvard and founding director of the Julis-Rabinowitz Program on Jewish and Israeli Law. He's an opinion columnist at Bloomberg and the author of 10 books. His latest is called \"To Be A Jew Today: A New Guide To God, Israel, And The Jewish People.\" The book is about the many ways Jews can interpret what it means to be a Jew and different ways Jews think of their relationship to Israel and Israeli policies, including the war in Gaza. We recorded our interview yesterday morning. Noah Feldman, welcome to FRESH AIR. Are you playing any official or unofficial role on Harvard's legal strategy or decision-making?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And Harvard has to understand, the last thing I want to do is hurt them. They're hurting themselves. They're fighting. You know, Columbia has been really - and they were very, very bad what they've do"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5422325", "date": "2025-06-04", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump's billion-dollar war on Harvard, explained", "question_index": 3, "text": "Thanks for clarifying that. Now, Harvard had been very divided over the protests surrounding Israel's bombing of Gaza. Many Jewish students felt threatened. What was the atmosphere like on campus at the end of this semester? Had it changed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. The university follows a good policy of creating a wall between its lawyers who represent it and its law faculty who have lots of ideas about how it should be represented. So my primary role is as"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5422325", "date": "2025-06-04", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump's billion-dollar war on Harvard, explained", "question_index": 4, "text": "The attacks on Harvard started with the task force commissioned by Trump to address antisemitism on campus. And, you know, this has led to cancellation of billions of dollars in grants and contracts to Harvard. But didn't Harvard reach a settlement with Trump over antisemitism?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A year ago, Harvard's commencement, our graduation, was really, in a significant way, disrupted by students protesting, including some faculty protesting, marching out of the graduation, speakers deno"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5422325", "date": "2025-06-04", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump's billion-dollar war on Harvard, explained", "question_index": 5, "text": "One of Trump's justifications for canceling government contracts is that he accused Harvard as being a breeding ground - I'm quoting here - \"breeding ground for virtue signaling and discrimination.\" How do you interpret that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Let me tell the story a little bit differently. I think, really, what we're facing now started with the testimony in Congress of Harvard's president and a couple of other university presidents in "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5422325", "date": "2025-06-04", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump's billion-dollar war on Harvard, explained", "question_index": 6, "text": "That's probably part of the reason why many other universities are worried right now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first thing I would say is that it's wrong. You know, it's always hard to understand exactly what is meant when you're being maligned, but, you know, you know the feeling. You know the idea that"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5422325", "date": "2025-06-04", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump's billion-dollar war on Harvard, explained", "question_index": 7, "text": "Say, hypothetically, that Trump is right and Harvard hadn't done enough to stop antisemitism, and it was just a breeding ground for virtue signaling and discrimination. Would the punishments that Trump has meted out against Harvard be legal, and would those punishments have been legally applied?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There are a lot of reasons for universities to be concerned. If Trump can go after the oldest university in the United States, one of the most significant in terms of its endowment and its academic le"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5422325", "date": "2025-06-04", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump's billion-dollar war on Harvard, explained", "question_index": 8, "text": "How specific has the administration been about curriculum-related issues?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. The Trump administration has no consideration for following the rules. There is a federal civil rights law, Title VI, that says, effectively, that if your university or other institution receives "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5422325", "date": "2025-06-04", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump's billion-dollar war on Harvard, explained", "question_index": 9, "text": "If Trump's actions stand up in court, does that set a precedent for the type of thing you're describing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Pretty darn specific. In a letter that the Trump administration sent Harvard on April 11 of this year, the Trump administration said that it wanted to create a supervisory entity under government auth"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5422325", "date": "2025-06-04", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump's billion-dollar war on Harvard, explained", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. My guest is Harvard law professor Noah Feldman, and author of the book \"To Be A Jew Today.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The good news is that the courts are not going to uphold Donald Trump's actions, which are so clearly and explicitly in violation of the Constitution. But you're absolutely right, Terry, that if a cou"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5422325", "date": "2025-06-04", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump's billion-dollar war on Harvard, explained", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Harvard Law professor Noah Feldman. We're talking about how the Trump administration is punishing Harvard. The Justice Department is reviewing claims of discrimination against white men at the Harvard Law Review. And the Harvard Law Review is not affiliated with Harvard, but it accused the publication of destroying evidence in an open investigation. And the administration demanded that Harvard cease and desist from interfering. And it was disclosed - The New York Times reported that there was a cooperating witness inside the Harvard Law Review, and that witness now works in the White House under Stephen Miller, the architect of the administration's domestic policy agenda, and Trump officials apparently confirm that. Now there are fears at Harvard that this will lead to criminal charges against the university. What can you tell us about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The good news is that the courts are not going to uphold Donald Trump's actions, which are so clearly and explicitly in violation of the Constitution. But you're absolutely right, Terry, that if a cou"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5422325", "date": "2025-06-04", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump's billion-dollar war on Harvard, explained", "question_index": 12, "text": "The Trump administration wants to prevent foreign students from enrolling in Harvard, and my understanding is that includes already enrolled students.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, to begin with, the Harvard Law Review, as you mentioned, Terry, is an independent student publication that's existed for a long time, and it's an important part of the ecosystem of legal academi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5422325", "date": "2025-06-04", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump's billion-dollar war on Harvard, explained", "question_index": 13, "text": "Since you're a law professor, have a lot of your international students come to you for advice on what they should do? Because the situation remains unclear, and we really don't know how this is going to end up and if you're an international student, you don't want to be deported, and you don't want to pay tuition to then be thrown out of the country. It's all very confusing. So are people coming to you for advice and do you see a lot of confusion among your students now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. The Trump administration issued an order quickly blocked by federal district court judge here in Boston. But the original order said that Harvard could not participate in the program run by the g"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5422325", "date": "2025-06-04", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump's billion-dollar war on Harvard, explained", "question_index": 14, "text": "So what do you think Trump's attacks on Harvard are really about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When the first announcement came from the Trump administration, lots of students - and it's not only students; there're also visiting scholars and fellows who do research who are affected - lots of th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5422325", "date": "2025-06-04", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump's billion-dollar war on Harvard, explained", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Harvard law professor Noah Feldman, who's also the author of the book \"To Be A Jew Today.\" We'll talk more after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Donald Trump usually has a kind of short-term self-interest objective and then a broader-term aggrandizement objective. In the short term, his self-interest is to make a headline, to make a populist h"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5422325", "date": "2025-06-04", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump's billion-dollar war on Harvard, explained", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to our discussion about the face-off between the Trump administration and Harvard and about antisemitism today. The administration has cut nearly $3 billion in grants and contracts and is trying to prevent foreign students from enrolling in Harvard and end the university's tax-exempt status. My guest, Noah Feldman, is a Harvard Law professor, a Bloomberg opinion columnist and author of 10 books, including his latest, \"To Be A Jew Today: A New Guide To God, Israel, And The Jewish People.\" The book is about the many ways Jews can interpret what it means to be a Jew and different ways Jews think of their relationship to Israel and Israeli policies, including the war in Gaza. We recorded our interview yesterday morning. How did Harvard decide not to give in, but to sue the Trump administration instead and go head-to-head?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Donald Trump usually has a kind of short-term self-interest objective and then a broader-term aggrandizement objective. In the short term, his self-interest is to make a headline, to make a populist h"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5422325", "date": "2025-06-04", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump's billion-dollar war on Harvard, explained", "question_index": 17, "text": "So I want to get back to Trump and his accusations about Harvard having not done enough to prevent antisemitism on campus. And it's been pointed out that after this week's attack on a peaceful demonstration in Boulder, Colorado, to bring home the Israeli hostages, Trump's initial reaction was to highlight that the alleged attacker was here illegally. But Trump didn't initially mention antisemitism. He just highlighted the attackers' immigration status. And the attacker is here on an expired tourist visa. He was born in Egypt. He lived in Kuwait for about 17 years, then moved to Colorado on the tourist visa, which had expired. And he's being charged with several crimes, including a hate crime. He said - and this came out on Monday - he said he wanted to kill all Zionist people and wished they were all dead. This is according to papers filed in federal court. Did you notice that he hadn't mentioned antisemitism, but just the illegal immigration status?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The initial letter that was sent to Harvard and made public made it sound like it was at least possible that the Trump administration wouldn't ask for Harvard to compromise its inherent academic indep"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5422325", "date": "2025-06-04", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump's billion-dollar war on Harvard, explained", "question_index": 18, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. My guest is Harvard Law professor Noah Feldman, and author of the book, \"To Be A Jew Today.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. Look, antisemitism is a real and dangerous phenomenon. The attack you're describing in Boulder is horrific and is clearly antisemitic under any definition of the term. Similarly, the shooting a"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5422325", "date": "2025-06-04", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump's billion-dollar war on Harvard, explained", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Harvard Law professor Noah Feldman. We've been talking about how the Trump administration is punishing Harvard, and also talking about antisemitism. His latest book is called \"To Be A Jew Today.\" NPR had an investigative report in mid-May that was headlined Multiple Trump White House Officials Have Ties to Antisemitic Extremists. And, you know, even by pardoning all of the January 6 people who were convicted, those include white nationalists who are, kind of, by definition, antisemitic.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. Look, antisemitism is a real and dangerous phenomenon. The attack you're describing in Boulder is horrific and is clearly antisemitic under any definition of the term. Similarly, the shooting a"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5422325", "date": "2025-06-04", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump's billion-dollar war on Harvard, explained", "question_index": 20, "text": "Who decides what antisemitism is? I mean, clearly, the attack on Boulder was antisemitic. Setting Pennsylvania governor Josh Shapiro's house on fire - antisemitic.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think you're entirely right that the Trump administration is being hypocritical in claiming that it cares about antisemitism. The Trump administration wants to go after Harvard and other universitie"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5422325", "date": "2025-06-04", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump's billion-dollar war on Harvard, explained", "question_index": 21, "text": "Just...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "On Passover, by the way."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5422325", "date": "2025-06-04", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump's billion-dollar war on Harvard, explained", "question_index": 22, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just so you don't think it's they didn't like Josh Shapiro."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5422325", "date": "2025-06-04", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump's billion-dollar war on Harvard, explained", "question_index": 23, "text": "So who decides what antisemitism is? I mean, there are official definitions of it. Those official definitions differ. And I'd like you to explain what definition Harvard is using to define antisemitism and what definition the Trump administration is using - if they have one - to define it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was on Passover evening when he and his family had been having their Seder."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5422325", "date": "2025-06-04", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump's billion-dollar war on Harvard, explained", "question_index": 24, "text": "You mean blaming all Jews for what's happening in Israel and Gaza.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As part of its settlement with a group of students who sued Harvard before Donald Trump became president - and the settlement was also reached before Donald Trump became president - Harvard agreed to "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5422325", "date": "2025-06-04", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump's billion-dollar war on Harvard, explained", "question_index": 25, "text": "Or saying that all Jews are Zionist.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Saying that all Jews are responsible for what Israel is doing is..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5422325", "date": "2025-06-04", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump's billion-dollar war on Harvard, explained", "question_index": 26, "text": "Is wearing buttons or scarves in support of Palestine antisemitic? Because I think the Trump administration implied that it was.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, absolutely. Not all Jews are Zionists. There are lots of Jews for whom Zionism is core to their Jewish identity. And so it's understandable that those Jews would look at criticisms of Zionism its"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5422325", "date": "2025-06-04", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump's billion-dollar war on Harvard, explained", "question_index": 27, "text": "As you point out in your book, many Jews who identify as progressive believe that to be Jewish is to embrace the ideal of social justice, to pursue the right and the good. And they believe that means opposing the ongoing bombing of Gaza and the blockades of food that's happened, how hard it is to get food, the children who are starving. In some ways, I think what you're suggesting is that a lot of Jews see protesting Israeli policy as their responsibility as Jews.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The answer from a First Amendment perspective has got to be that it's protected speech. If I'm wearing a button or a scarf, pointing out my views, that is core to my free speech rights. So I think tha"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5422325", "date": "2025-06-04", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump's billion-dollar war on Harvard, explained", "question_index": 28, "text": "I think it's fair to say that the war in Gaza and some of Israel's policies in Israel have divided a lot of Jewish families.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. For progressive Jews, the obligation coming from the biblical prophets to repair the world and achieve social justice is a universal obligation on everybody, but especially on them as Jews"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5422325", "date": "2025-06-04", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump's billion-dollar war on Harvard, explained", "question_index": 29, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. My guest is Harvard law professor Noah Feldman, and author of the book, \"To Be A Jew Today.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I couldn't agree with you more. And, you know, one can see this at Jewish holidays or really just any time that Jewish families get together with each other, that there's deep divisions. And a lot of "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5422325", "date": "2025-06-04", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump's billion-dollar war on Harvard, explained", "question_index": 30, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Harvard law professor Noah Feldman. We've been talking about how the Trump administration is punishing Harvard and also talking about antisemitism. His latest book is called \"To Be A Jew Today.\" In your new book, you write, (reading) Jews are trying to figure out whether to think of themselves as Jewish and if so, how and how much. Explain what you mean by that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I couldn't agree with you more. And, you know, one can see this at Jewish holidays or really just any time that Jewish families get together with each other, that there's deep divisions. And a lot of "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5422325", "date": "2025-06-04", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump's billion-dollar war on Harvard, explained", "question_index": 31, "text": "Have you done a lot of thinking about that over the years, and how has your own thinking changed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Historically, it was often impossible for Jews to be anything other than Jews because the government or the culture wouldn't let you forget it. But happily, we don't live in that world anymore. If som"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5422325", "date": "2025-06-04", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump's billion-dollar war on Harvard, explained", "question_index": 32, "text": "What does God mean to you? - the word God. What do you think of when you think of the word God?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've done more thinking than I'd like to admit about those topics. And honestly, my views have evolved a lot over the course of a lifetime. I think at different points in my life, you know, I was rais"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5422325", "date": "2025-06-04", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump's billion-dollar war on Harvard, explained", "question_index": 33, "text": "You've said something that really got me thinking in that, in terms of, like, the Hebrew Bible, the Old Testament, that that God is - often seems like a very angry, punitive God. And you say that in some ways, like, that reflects, like, your average family, in the sense that most families have some element of dysfunction. And if you read the Bible, so many of the families in the Bible have, like, terrible dysfunction. I'd like you to talk about that a little bit and how you interpret that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think of the specifically human attempt to comprehend something grander, bigger, deeper and more fundamental than just us passing through life. And we all try to make sense of that in different ways"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5422325", "date": "2025-06-04", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump's billion-dollar war on Harvard, explained", "question_index": 34, "text": "Noah Feldman, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. I think that the right way to think about Jews is as a large, loving and somewhat dysfunctional family, and the Bible already does depict the patriarchs and matriarchs in exactly that way. You k"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5422325", "date": "2025-06-04", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Trump's billion-dollar war on Harvard, explained", "question_index": 35, "text": "Noah Feldman is the Felix Frankfurter Professor of Law at Harvard. His latest book is called \"To Be A Jew Today: A New Guide To God, Israel, And The Jewish People.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, poet and novelist Ocean Vuong joins us to discuss his new novel, \"The Emperor of Gladness.\" Set in a fictional town in Connecticut, it follows a 19-year-old grappling with addiction and despair who forms an unexpected bond with an 82-year-old widow living with dementia. Together, they navigate memory and survival. I hope you'll join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram - @nprfreshair. Fresh Air's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering today from Charlie Kaier and Diana Martinez (ph). Our managing producer is Sam Briger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Susan Nyakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. Our cohost is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me, Terry. I really appreciate it very much."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425263", "date": "2025-06-06", "guest": "Julie Kavner", "title": "Remembering longtime 'The Simpsons' composer Alf Clausen", "question_index": 0, "text": "Let me move to another track on \"The Simpsons\" \"Songs In The Key Of Springfield\" CD. And you wrote a theme for the Springfield news show, Eye on Springfield, with Kent Brockman.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm usually given a set of script pages that contain the lyric and I'm usually given enough pages in front of the lyric and behind the lyrics so that I know what the setup of the scene is supposed to "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425263", "date": "2025-06-06", "guest": "Julie Kavner", "title": "Remembering longtime 'The Simpsons' composer Alf Clausen", "question_index": 1, "text": "Tell me about writing this theme, and what you think of TV themes and news themes that you hear.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425263", "date": "2025-06-06", "guest": "Julie Kavner", "title": "Remembering longtime 'The Simpsons' composer Alf Clausen", "question_index": 2, "text": "Well, let's hear your version of this, the \"Eye On Springfield\" theme with Kent Brockman.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that my take on TV news themes in general now is that somewhere along the way, there has been a god of rock 'n' roll that has reached down and grabbed every news director by the neck and said,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425263", "date": "2025-06-06", "guest": "Julie Kavner", "title": "Remembering longtime 'The Simpsons' composer Alf Clausen", "question_index": 3, "text": "What are some of the for-real TV themes that you've written over the years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Homer Simpson) Wow, infotainment."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425263", "date": "2025-06-06", "guest": "Julie Kavner", "title": "Remembering longtime 'The Simpsons' composer Alf Clausen", "question_index": 4, "text": "And what is underscoring?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, TV themes has not been my bailiwick, as they say. I co-wrote the theme to the \"Alf\" series. And other than that, I have been basically known as an underscore music person, not a theme writer."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425263", "date": "2025-06-06", "guest": "Julie Kavner", "title": "Remembering longtime 'The Simpsons' composer Alf Clausen", "question_index": 5, "text": "And how much underscoring do you have to do for \"The Simpsons\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Underscoring is all of the music that you hear within the body of the show, other than the theme. Underscore music that accompanies dialogue, underscore music that takes us from one scene to another. "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425263", "date": "2025-06-06", "guest": "Julie Kavner", "title": "Remembering longtime 'The Simpsons' composer Alf Clausen", "question_index": 6, "text": "I want to get to another song on \"The Simpsons\" CD. And this is actually a parody of a song from \"Schoolhouse Rock!,\" the song \"I'm Just a Bill On Capitol Hill.\" And this was a song written by Dave Frishberg that's supposed to describe - I mean, that does describe how a bill becomes a law. And this is a really clever parody of that by a demagogue.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's quite extensive. In my normal schedule, I have about 30 music cues to write for an episode, and I have about a four-day turnaround for that. And the music is all written for a 35-piece orchestra,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425263", "date": "2025-06-06", "guest": "Julie Kavner", "title": "Remembering longtime 'The Simpsons' composer Alf Clausen", "question_index": 7, "text": "You know, sung in the persona of a demagogue. And Jack Sheldon, the trumpeter who sang the original version, sings this one, as well. Tell us how this one came about.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's quite extensive. In my normal schedule, I have about 30 music cues to write for an episode, and I have about a four-day turnaround for that. And the music is all written for a 35-piece orchestra,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425263", "date": "2025-06-06", "guest": "Julie Kavner", "title": "Remembering longtime 'The Simpsons' composer Alf Clausen", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, let's hear the parody of \"I'm Just A Bill.\" The parody is called \"The Amendment Song,\" and this is from an episode of The Simpsons called \"The Day The Violence Died.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, again, the lyric originated as part of the script, and when I was given the sample that this was supposed to follow, when I heard the original, my first comment was, well, that's Jack Sheldon si"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425263", "date": "2025-06-06", "guest": "Julie Kavner", "title": "Remembering longtime 'The Simpsons' composer Alf Clausen", "question_index": 9, "text": "UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character) Hey, who left all this garbage on the steps of Congress?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, again, the lyric originated as part of the script, and when I was given the sample that this was supposed to follow, when I heard the original, my first comment was, well, that's Jack Sheldon si"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425263", "date": "2025-06-06", "guest": "Julie Kavner", "title": "Remembering longtime 'The Simpsons' composer Alf Clausen", "question_index": 10, "text": "When you're writing a song, parody, are you trying to write it as if it were serious, as if it were really a Broadway show or really a movie theme?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Amendment) Oh, yeah. Doors open, boys. UNIDENTIFIED ACTORS #2: (As characters, vocalizing)."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest Molly Jong-Fast's new memoir begins with this sentence. I am the only child of a once-famous woman. Her mother is writer Erica Jong, who became famous for her 1973 novel \"Fear Of Flying,\" which sold about 20 million copies and was considered a groundbreaking work of second-wave feminist literature. The story's main character is a married woman who feels the passion has drained from their relationship. Her fantasy is having passionate sex with a stranger with no commitment, no relationship, maybe not even knowing each other's names. Erica Jong called that kind of relationship a zipless sex word that we can't say on the radio. That expression caught on. Erica Jong wrote a couple of other popular novels and then wrote novels that didn't catch on. Molly writes that her mother had become addicted to fame and couldn't bear losing it. From Molly's perspective, the addiction to fame and alcohol meant she got very little attention from her mother. The book goes back-and-forth in time, but its focus is on the worst year of Molly's life, 2023, the year when she put her mother and stepfather in a nursing home because of their dementia. Her stepfather died later that year. The family dog had to be euthanized, and her husband was diagnosed with metastasized pancreatic cancer. When the memoir ends, the treatment for the cancer has been effective and he's cancer free. The memoir is titled \"How To Lose Your Mother.\" Molly has a level of fame now, too. She's a political analyst on MSNBC and before that made frequent appearances on CNN. Molly Jong-Fast, welcome to FRESH AIR. Your memoir is really interesting. I want your capsule summary of your mother's book \"Fear Of Flying\" that made her famous.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 1, "text": "And it was also a time where standards were changing. People were living together outside of marriage. There was an LGBTQ...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I think when you think about \"Fear Of Flying,\" it's important to remember exactly what that year looked like, 1973. So the pill was made legal in 1964. So there was a sort of buildup. And then in 1"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 2, "text": "Well, it was mostly just, like, a gay rights movement at that time. There'd been an expression in the late '60s and early '70s - smash monogamy. So, you know, standards were really changing, and women were expecting to have sexual pleasure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 3, "text": "And I don't know that women before that felt that they had the freedom to express their own sexual needs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 4, "text": "Well, you describe her as writing what was perceived as, you know, a second-wave feminist book, but that your mother in real life went from man to man trying to find an identity. And she related mostly to men she thought she could seduce.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I think about my mother's story - because my mother's very much a product of 1942, the year she was born, as much as she's a product of anything. And in the '40s, women just were not necessarily "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 5, "text": "You describe your mother as getting addicted to fame. What do you mean by that? And how do you think it affected her behavior and her ability to parent you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, it's funny 'cause - so one of the parallels in this book is my grandfather. And my grandfather was Howard Fast, and he was jailed during the House on Un-American Activities. He wrote \"Sp"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 6, "text": "How did it affect, like, your formative years, especially when you were becoming sexual yourself, to be the daughter of a mother who is famous in part for writing about sex?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I think my grandfather also had this problem of being addicted to fame. And look; fame is, in this country, amazing, right? It is the closest thing we have to magic. It is a thing that makes people"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 7, "text": "What do you mean by that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I personally have always wanted to talk to my mother about sex as little as possible. And, in fact, like, probably, you know, she would always be like - I remember when I was little, she'd be like, do"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 8, "text": "Yeah. So your mother would walk around in a robe that was not tied?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No - right. Like, it's just, you know, she's talking about sex. I'm in a green room waiting for her to hear her talk about sex. I mean, I said to my husband when I married him, I said, you know, my mo"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 9, "text": "Can you describe what your parenting was like when you were a teenager and you were doing cocaine and you were drinking a lot, before you checked into rehab?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. That was peak Erica Jong. And, you know, is it - I said to him, you know, this is what's going to happen to you, so I'm sorry to tell you. And actually, the other day, I was saying to him - like,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 10, "text": "But she downplayed your issues with addiction.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I was - I mean, I did delight in being a terrible child. I think it's important to mention this. My - I really did. There really was quite a lot of payback for the bad parenting I felt I had had wh"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 11, "text": "She didn't think you needed to go into rehab.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 12, "text": "You mean, if you went into rehab, maybe it meant that she should go into rehab, and there was no way she was going to do it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she didn't, and then she got very into it. But the reason why she did that was because we come from an alcoholic family. When people start going to rehab, it can be very worrying. If you want to"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 13, "text": "Right. Let me reintroduce you. My guest is Molly Jong-Fast. Her new memoir is titled \"How To Lose Your Mother.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Through the whole - I mean, she did end up stopping drinking a bunch of different times. And I write about this in the book, where she'd get - the drinking would cause problems, and she'd stop. But ye"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Molly Jong-Fast. Her new memoir is called \"How To Lose Your Mother.\" Her mother is Erica Jong, who's famous for her 1973 feminist novel \"Fear Of Flying.\" Molly is also a political analyst on MSNBC. You know the children of other famous parents, and I'm wondering if they've had similar issues with how they were raised. And what are some of the patterns that you see?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Through the whole - I mean, she did end up stopping drinking a bunch of different times. And I write about this in the book, where she'd get - the drinking would cause problems, and she'd stop. But ye"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 15, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I am fascinated by this because I am not nostalgic about my childhood, but I appreciate history. And so I find my mom sort of interesting at this point. I'm a little bit removed from it, I feel like, "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 16, "text": "A couple of your friends who are the children of a celebrity parent were kidnapped with the understanding that the parent was famous and probably had a lot of money.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She is the best nepo baby because she has, like, an incredible career. Everybody loves her and thinks she's so nice, and also her mother is Diana Ross. Like, that's the best nepo baby, and the rest of"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 17, "text": "Seriously?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That was a very '80s thing. People don't do it anymore. I actually knew a couple of people who were kidnapped with varying degrees of success, but it did capture my mother's imagination, and she"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 18, "text": "Was he OK with that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, you know, I don't - when you come from a writer family, there is always - you know, as much as you love your family, you know, content does come knocking at the door. I mean, it is - you know,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 19, "text": "Did he not know that he had that smell?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it was still so much better than the - his fictionalized version in some of my mom's books that he was. But this is actually pretty interesting. So I said to him, I got to write about this. "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 20, "text": "So you write that you have three children.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess he - you know, he said, well, I had the smell because I was in the hospital, because da, da, da (ph). And I said, I OK. I mean, it's not - you know, this is a memoir. This is what we do. We ge"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 21, "text": "You write about your husband having cancer and the treatment that, you know, has been effective. But you don't give any real details about who your husband is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 22, "text": "We know he's an academic. We don't know what he teaches.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 23, "text": "Yeah, and you don't reveal details about your children. I think after your mother basing characters in novels on you, you were, like, super protective of your family.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm careful."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 24, "text": "Not of your mother. You're very revealing about your mother.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 25, "text": "But super protective of your husband and children. I'd like to know what it was like to have characters in your mother's novels based on you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 26, "text": "You felt that your mother - I think I can use the word betrayed, that your mother betrayed you a little bit by basing characters on you who weren't really you. I mean, they didn't reflect accurately who you were. In other words, like, you had a really bad delivery when you gave birth to your...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know? And that, I think, is a fundamental conflict with memoir is that you don't get to choose, right? It's not - you can have someone be careful."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 27, "text": "...Your two twins. You nearly died. You know, you were bleeding profusely. Your placenta had attached to the uterus. Things could've gone either way. And in your mother's novel, where this is fictionalized, you were exaggerating what happened.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 28, "text": "The character was exaggerating what happened in the delivery room. So you felt betrayed by some of that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 29, "text": "And by some of the representations of the character based on your husband. But now you've written a book which is kind of brutally honest about your mother.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 30, "text": "Do you feel that you have betrayed her? And I'll mention here, too, now she has dementia...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 31, "text": "...And probably wouldn't know the difference one way or another. I doubt she could read your book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 32, "text": "She doesn't remember anything. So I guess this is a two-part question. Do you feel like you betrayed her? And would you have ever written the book if she was in her full senses, if she had a memory, if she had a discerning memory and could read it, interpret it and then talk to you about how she felt about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, she can't."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 33, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Molly Jong-Fast. Her new memoir is called \"How To Lose Your Mother.\" She's also a political analyst on MSNBC. We'll talk more after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, so the first question is, yes, I would write this book even if she were 100% clear. And I think that what - it's funny because the journalist in The Times who writes about publishing and who rea"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 34, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Molly Jong-Fast. She's written a new memoir called \"How To Lose Your Mother.\" Her mother is Erica Jong, who became famous for her 1973 novel \"Fear Of Flying,\" which sold about 20 million copies and was considered an important work in second-wave feminist literature. The memoir is about her mother's addiction to fame, its impact on Molly. The book goes back-and-forth in time, but its focus is on the worst year of Molly's life, 2023, the year when she put her mother and stepfather in a nursing home because of their dementia. Her stepfather died later that year. The family dog was sick and had to be euthanized, and her husband was diagnosed with neuroendocrine cancer on the pancreas. When the memoir ends, the treatment for the cancer has been effective and he's cancer-free. The memoir is titled \"How To Lose Your Mother.\" Molly has a level of fame now, too. She's a political analyst on MSNBC and before that made frequent appearances on CNN. You're achieving a level of fame now and are recognizable because you're on MSNBC as a political analyst. Before that, you made frequent appearances on CNN. What kind of promises have you made to yourself about being a public figure?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, so the first question is, yes, I would write this book even if she were 100% clear. And I think that what - it's funny because the journalist in The Times who writes about publishing and who rea"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 35, "text": "So let's talk about 2023, which is a major focus of the book. It's the worst year of your life. Your mother had dementia. Your stepfather's Parkinson's had led to dementia. You put them both in a nursing home, and you described that nursing home as the most expensive nursing home in the world. You had to sell their house. Your dog was very sick and was euthanized. I think your father-in-law died that year, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I've had a really interesting and strange and also delightful - I want to add delightful - career, which is that I had a little bit of notoriety when I was very young, and then I sort of had kids a"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 36, "text": "And your husband was diagnosed with metastasized cancer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And my aunt."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 37, "text": "And thankfully, the treatment worked and he is now cancer-free.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 38, "text": "And during all of this, I mean, you also have three children. I think that's more than anyone can handle. And you always felt like you were in the wrong place. If you were with your husband, you felt maybe you should be with your parents, or if you were with your parents, maybe you should be with your children. And then, you know, all the time, it's like, oh, I have to get to work.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 39, "text": "How did you cope with all of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yup."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 40, "text": "And when you did that, did you feel like you were being selfish because there was work that needed to be done, people who needed your help, care that needed to be given?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I had a - I mean, the reason why I ultimately wanted to write this book was because I actually did cope with it and I had all sorts of little tricks. And I know that a memoir that's meant to be a s"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 41, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I - yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 42, "text": "So you always imagine worst-case scenarios.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was terrible. I mean, the whole caregiver thing is like that. And I also had a lot of - I found work to be amazing. Like, I loved going to work. I just found it was so great because it was, like, s"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 43, "text": "And when you were worried that your husband was going to die because of the metastasized cancer, when you imagined yourself as a widow in your 40s, what scenarios played out in your mind?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 44, "text": "Some people who might be in danger of dying from cancer or another illness can talk about it. And some people who know that the possibility of death is real can't talk about it. Were you and your husband able to talk about the real possibility that he would not survive the cancer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It did not seem like it was going to be great. And the thing that I was the most worried - I mean, there were all sorts of things I was worried about. But the thing I was really the most worried about"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 45, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Molly Jong-Fast. Her new memoir is called \"How To Lose Your Mother.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's funny because I never thought that I would care about getting older because I never thought of myself as a person who's particularly involved with the way I look. And something happened when I go"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 46, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Molly Jong-Fast. Her new memoir is called \"How To Lose Your Mother.\" Her mother is Erica Jong, who's famous for her 1973 feminist novel \"Fear Of Flying.\" Molly is also a political analyst at MSNBC. You decided to put your mother and stepfather in a nursing home when their dementia had gotten, you know, pretty bad and they needed more help than they could get at home. So you did it, at the same time, you also felt guilty about it. And I think so many people...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's funny because I never thought that I would care about getting older because I never thought of myself as a person who's particularly involved with the way I look. And something happened when I go"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 47, "text": "...Go through that, that mix of, like, I know I have to do this - the parents are upset. A lot of people with dementia don't even admit that they have it, maybe they just don't experience it that way. How did you deal with the guilt part?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 48, "text": "Is your mother still drinking?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I really felt bad. And also, I mean, I still really struggle with the guilt. I felt like I should have - I really would have liked to have moved her in with me. And I felt that I had made a sort"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 49, "text": "Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 50, "text": "It's not like she's going to get healthy. She's already lost her memory, so...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, because the school of thought is - and I really do believe this, as someone who's sober, is that I didn't think it was fair to tell her she couldn't drink for the period of her life when she rea"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 51, "text": "What's to lose? Is that what you're saying?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 52, "text": "Are you saying, especially at the end of life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, what's to lose? And also, if you believe alcoholism is an illness, which I do - like, for example, when my grandmother had dementia, they would hide alcohol from her. And I thought that wa"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 53, "text": "Like, you're not going to be recovering from dementia.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think it's so unfair."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 54, "text": "Nobody's relying on you to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 55, "text": "...Take care of children or earn an income or do anything.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 56, "text": "When you were going through the worst year of your life, were you afraid that you would lose your sobriety?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 57, "text": "How would you compare what you consider feminism to what you think your mother would say?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No because - I mean, yes, I always am vigilant about my sobriety, but I went to a lot of meetings, as I still do, and I talked about it, and I went to therapy. I went back to therapy. I hate therapy, "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 58, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I feel bad for my mom because she really was in an impossible situation, right? Not - born in 1942. The difference between being born in 1942 versus being born in 1978 - right? - post Roe. Unfortun"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 59, "text": "Molly Jong-Fast, thank you so much for talking with us. It's been a pleasure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Very much the product of those women."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5425326", "date": "2025-06-10", "guest": "Molly Jong-Fast", "title": "'How to Lose Your Mother' author Molly Jong-Fast reflects on life with mom Erica Jong", "question_index": 60, "text": "Molly Jong-Fast is a political analyst on MSNBC. Her new memoir is called \"How To Lose Your Mother.\" After we take a short break, John Powers reviews a new Netflix police detective series. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5429638", "date": "2025-06-11", "guest": "Hannah Natanson", "title": "What is the status of DOGE now that Elon Musk is gone?", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Elon Musk is gone from DOGE, the so-called Department of Government Efficiency, and he and President Trump are estranged. But DOGE is continuing its work. Some DOGE staffers now have positions within several government agencies, and DOGE's goals are shared by the director of the Office of Management and Budget, Russell Vought. My guest, Hannah Natanson, is a Washington Post reporter covering Trump's reshaping of the federal government, and she's broken several stories. She's investigated how DOGE has created new inefficiencies and bureaucratic red tape, how the Trump administration has been trying to fix DOGE's mistake of firing too many federal workers and contractors, what impact that's had on those who were fired and what DOGE is up to now. She's currently investigating which data DOGE has accessed from every federal agency. Natanson won a Peabody in 2024 for a podcast series on school gun violence. She was part of a team of Washington Post journalists awarded the 2022 Pulitzer Prize for Public Service for coverage of the January 6 insurrection at the Capitol. We recorded our interview yesterday morning. Hannah Natanson, welcome back to FRESH AIR. What is left of DOGE now that Musk is gone, and so is his number two, who handled the day-to-day, Steven Davis?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5429638", "date": "2025-06-11", "guest": "Hannah Natanson", "title": "What is the status of DOGE now that Elon Musk is gone?", "question_index": 1, "text": "Yeah, he - you report that he seems to be taking over for now. And Russell Vought, in addition to being the director of the Office of Management and Budget, he had a leading role on Project 2025, which seems to have become a blueprint for the Trump administration agenda. And he told the House that DOGE is shifting from a consulting role to a position far more institutionalized at the Office of Management and Budget. What does that mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So that's a very good question, and I think the situation is changing day by day, and it's something we're continuing to try to report out. But as far as we can tell, those who have left DOGE include,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5429638", "date": "2025-06-11", "guest": "Hannah Natanson", "title": "What is the status of DOGE now that Elon Musk is gone?", "question_index": 2, "text": "So Trump had nominated a close associate of Elon Musk's, Jared Isaacman, to be the next head of NASA. But after Trump and Musk had a public feud, Trump retracted Isaacman's name from the nomination. Do you think he'll want to remove other people who are Musk associated?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we'll find out. I certainly think that we will see more cuts or attempts to really legitimize how DOGE, in sort of the Elon Musk era, slashed away staff and spending in all these sort of chaotic"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5429638", "date": "2025-06-11", "guest": "Hannah Natanson", "title": "What is the status of DOGE now that Elon Musk is gone?", "question_index": 3, "text": "One of DOGE's goals has been to consolidate data from different agencies, including personal data about Americans like health records, Social Security numbers. This is an effort in the name of efficiency. But is there a reason why data from different agencies haven't been consolidated before?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it depends. I mean, I think we'll see. Certainly, the fate of Isaacman raises that question, but I do think that, you know, some of these folks are not on Trump's radar, perhaps lower-level DO"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5429638", "date": "2025-06-11", "guest": "Hannah Natanson", "title": "What is the status of DOGE now that Elon Musk is gone?", "question_index": 4, "text": "Is that data at risk as it's being transferred and consolidated if the utmost security protocols aren't followed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's interesting. It's not actually - some other countries do take that approach. I think in the United States until now it's been the approach that each federal agency that collects this sensit"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5429638", "date": "2025-06-11", "guest": "Hannah Natanson", "title": "What is the status of DOGE now that Elon Musk is gone?", "question_index": 5, "text": "There are concerns about how this data could be used once it's consolidated, and one of the concerns is that it could be used in Trump's effort to locate and deport undocumented immigrants. What are the concerns about how the data could be used?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct. And with the speed at which DOGE has done this or forced federal workers to do this, we have seen a lot of those concerns arise. You know, DOGE in asking to transport data between agencies or"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5429638", "date": "2025-06-11", "guest": "Hannah Natanson", "title": "What is the status of DOGE now that Elon Musk is gone?", "question_index": 6, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Washington Post reporter Hannah Natanson. We'll talk more about her reporting on DOGE after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that's certainly one of them. Apart from concerns that it's more vulnerable to hackers, it's just a wealth of information, especially if you're trying to understand immigration status. So, you"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5429638", "date": "2025-06-11", "guest": "Hannah Natanson", "title": "What is the status of DOGE now that Elon Musk is gone?", "question_index": 7, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Washington Post reporter Hannah Natanson. She's covering how Trump is reshaping the federal government and has been focusing lately on DOGE. The Supreme Court ruled on Friday that DOGE could access sensitive Social Security data again. That ended a temporary injunction that prevented access for several months. What is the significance of that decision?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that's certainly one of them. Apart from concerns that it's more vulnerable to hackers, it's just a wealth of information, especially if you're trying to understand immigration status. So, you"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5429638", "date": "2025-06-11", "guest": "Hannah Natanson", "title": "What is the status of DOGE now that Elon Musk is gone?", "question_index": 8, "text": "So, you know, what you mentioned about the 150 years old just not really being somebody's age - it's more of a code - what's that about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it lets DOGE back inside the agency to continue its work there. And we're still not totally sure what the ultimate scope of that will be. So far, you know, DOGE came into Social Security and w"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5429638", "date": "2025-06-11", "guest": "Hannah Natanson", "title": "What is the status of DOGE now that Elon Musk is gone?", "question_index": 9, "text": "Does the Supreme Court decision that DOGE could access sensitive Social Security data make it easier to consolidate data from different agencies?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it's basically - it's a little hard to explain, but the way that the Social Security system is set up, there are some people with impossibly long lifespans who do appear on the rolls, but it's just"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5429638", "date": "2025-06-11", "guest": "Hannah Natanson", "title": "What is the status of DOGE now that Elon Musk is gone?", "question_index": 10, "text": "One of your articles was headlined \"Trump Administration Races To Fix A Big Mistake: DOGE Fired Too Many People.\" What are some of the agencies that realized they fired people that were essential?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I would expect so, yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5429638", "date": "2025-06-11", "guest": "Hannah Natanson", "title": "What is the status of DOGE now that Elon Musk is gone?", "question_index": 11, "text": "So let's talk about some of the things that were going wrong with all the people that were fired and the reasons why some of them are being asked back. Let's look at the Social Security Administration. What are some of the problems the administration faced after staff cuts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it's still fluid and still happening across the government. But some of the earliest ones that I recently reported on include the Food and Drug Administration, USAID. Well, it's sort of accurate, s"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5429638", "date": "2025-06-11", "guest": "Hannah Natanson", "title": "What is the status of DOGE now that Elon Musk is gone?", "question_index": 12, "text": "Wow, really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, a big thing is just bogging down claims processing. So not only have we had a massive amount of turnover at Social Security, between resignations and firings, but they also debuted this program "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5429638", "date": "2025-06-11", "guest": "Hannah Natanson", "title": "What is the status of DOGE now that Elon Musk is gone?", "question_index": 13, "text": "And you report that, like, in one place - I think it was a place in Pennsylvania, actually - one of the computers broke down in some way, and there was no IT person on the staff anymore to fix it. So somebody was without a computer for three days, and couldn't respond to any phone calls as a result.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5429638", "date": "2025-06-11", "guest": "Hannah Natanson", "title": "What is the status of DOGE now that Elon Musk is gone?", "question_index": 14, "text": "The FDA - the Food and Drug Administration - let thousands of workers go. And you write that dismissals hit hard at the Office of Regulatory Policy, the Office of Drug Policy, and teams that worked on Freedom of Information Act requests and patent extensions. So a lot of people were hired back 'cause things weren't going well. So, three weeks after they were fired, a lot of workers started getting calls and emails saying they were due back. So I'm going to read one of the emails that they got. (Reading) The notice of reduction in force issued to you is officially rescinded, and you will not be separated from employment. You are expected to return to duty the next business day following your receipt of this notice. If you're already fired, can you be ordered back the next day like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, correct. And that led to the reversal of this reassignment of the IT workers. That was one of our - those cases where the Trump administration had sent in central office staff to take over field"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5429638", "date": "2025-06-11", "guest": "Hannah Natanson", "title": "What is the status of DOGE now that Elon Musk is gone?", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Washington Post reporter Hannah Ntanson. We'll talk more about her investigations into DOGE after we take a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Apparently. I mean, so much of this stuff is them building the plane as they're flying it in terms of testing what they can do legally. And they're moving a lot faster than the pace of the courts, as "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5429638", "date": "2025-06-11", "guest": "Hannah Natanson", "title": "What is the status of DOGE now that Elon Musk is gone?", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Washington Post reporter Hannah Natanson. She's covering how President Trump is reshaping American government. She's been focusing on DOGE. Although Musk has left DOGE, DOGE is continuing its work. Some former DOGE employees now have powerful jobs within various agencies. Natanson has reported that DOGE has created new government inefficiencies, and the Trump administration has been trying to fix the mistakes DOGE made when it fired too many federal workers and contractors. She's currently investigating which data DOGE has access at federal agencies and what that data might be used for. You know, the GE in DOGE stands for government efficiency, but you've reported on ways that federal employees work is becoming more inefficient, how there's more red tape and bureaucracy, and that's especially true with spending. Give us an example of how spending for even the smallest items has become so difficult.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Apparently. I mean, so much of this stuff is them building the plane as they're flying it in terms of testing what they can do legally. And they're moving a lot faster than the pace of the courts, as "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5429638", "date": "2025-06-11", "guest": "Hannah Natanson", "title": "What is the status of DOGE now that Elon Musk is gone?", "question_index": 17, "text": "You also write about how people in the Federal Aviation Agency, the air traffic controllers, had to put in, like, complicated forms just to get the windows washed. And, of course, if you're an air traffic controller, having clean, visible windows is a really good idea. Can you talk about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I'll give you two. One's quite quick. So recently at NASA, a group of employees needed fastening bolts, and it took several rounds of emails and detailed paragraphs explaining, you know, what they "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5429638", "date": "2025-06-11", "guest": "Hannah Natanson", "title": "What is the status of DOGE now that Elon Musk is gone?", "question_index": 18, "text": "At the National Nuclear Security Administration, which is in the Department of Energy, 17% of the staff was hired (ph), and this is the group that protects the safety and security of America's 500 nuclear warheads. So they were fired, and then they were hired back. What made DOGE, or the agency, or whoever was in charge of this, realize that firing these people was a really bad idea?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Pretty important, yeah. Yeah, there's these new checks and balances that are required by DOGE - they had done an overhaul of the payment system - meant that FAA staffers had to write statements justif"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5429638", "date": "2025-06-11", "guest": "Hannah Natanson", "title": "What is the status of DOGE now that Elon Musk is gone?", "question_index": 19, "text": "In 2023, Russell Vought, who's now director of the Office of Management and Budget, gave a private speech for a pro-Trump think tank. And in that speech, he said, we want the bureaucrats to be traumatically affected. When they wake up in the morning, we want them to not want to go to work because they're increasingly viewed as the villains. We want to put them in trauma. Part of the investigation you've done is what effect these firings have had on individuals who were fired, what the mental health consequences have been. And you gave some very dramatic examples. Do you want to tell us one of the stories?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So this was pretty early on, and this was during that mass firing of probationary employees that Trump, his administration pursued over Valentine's Day. But in the case of this agency, what happened t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5429638", "date": "2025-06-11", "guest": "Hannah Natanson", "title": "What is the status of DOGE now that Elon Musk is gone?", "question_index": 20, "text": "How difficult do you think it would be to return to the norms that we had before DOGE?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that was a difficult article to research and report. I and a colleague, William Wan, spent a long time following a large number of federal workers to try to tell the stories of how this approach"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5429638", "date": "2025-06-11", "guest": "Hannah Natanson", "title": "What is the status of DOGE now that Elon Musk is gone?", "question_index": 21, "text": "Well, let me introduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Washington Post reporter Hannah Natanson. We're talking about her reporting on DOGE, and we'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very difficult, in some cases, impossible. Something I have thought about and something that I hear a lot about from federal employees - you know, you can't, like, rebuild the ship once it's sunk is s"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5429638", "date": "2025-06-11", "guest": "Hannah Natanson", "title": "What is the status of DOGE now that Elon Musk is gone?", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Washington Post reporter Hannah Natanson. She's covering how Trump is reshaping the federal government, and she's been focusing on DOGE. Are there any norms that you think we've lost, either permanently or at least for an extended period of time, that you want to mention?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very difficult, in some cases, impossible. Something I have thought about and something that I hear a lot about from federal employees - you know, you can't, like, rebuild the ship once it's sunk is s"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5429638", "date": "2025-06-11", "guest": "Hannah Natanson", "title": "What is the status of DOGE now that Elon Musk is gone?", "question_index": 23, "text": "What are some of the challenges you've faced in investigating what's happening with DOGE?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I think it ties back to sort of the defining architecture of federal work is what we've lost. And you can see that in multiple different ways. The idea that the things that defined federal wor"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5429638", "date": "2025-06-11", "guest": "Hannah Natanson", "title": "What is the status of DOGE now that Elon Musk is gone?", "question_index": 24, "text": "In the Washington Post articles that you've written or co-written, it says, kind of in the middle of the article, help us report on the Trump administration. The Washington Post wants to hear from anyone with knowledge of the Trump administration's inner working, including the activities of the U.S. DOGE service. Then it gives contact information for each reporter on that specific story. So is that one of the ways you've gotten, like, more than 900 contacts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, for one thing, DOGE won't talk to me, and I would love if they would. But so far, I have not been able to reach them, and it would be really, really great to get a firsthand account or perspecti"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5429638", "date": "2025-06-11", "guest": "Hannah Natanson", "title": "What is the status of DOGE now that Elon Musk is gone?", "question_index": 25, "text": "So we're recording this on Tuesday morning, and later this week, the House is expected to vote on a bill that would codify billions of dollars in DOGE cuts. So if Congress does codify the cuts that are in this bill, would that protect against any legal challenges to those cuts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, although I will say, a lot of it happened through Reddit. So that's a social media platform - a website, for those who don't know. I think many do. But this is actually how I became sort of a gov"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5429638", "date": "2025-06-11", "guest": "Hannah Natanson", "title": "What is the status of DOGE now that Elon Musk is gone?", "question_index": 26, "text": "Hannah Natanson, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would expect so, yes. It would certainly give them much more authority and much more lasting power."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5429638", "date": "2025-06-11", "guest": "Hannah Natanson", "title": "What is the status of DOGE now that Elon Musk is gone?", "question_index": 27, "text": "Hannah Natanson is a reporter for The Washington Post, covering DOGE and how President Trump is reshaping federal government. Our interview was recorded yesterday morning. After we take a short break, Maureen Corrigan will review Thomas Mallon's new book, collecting his journals from 1983 to '94, which includes when he came out and when the AIDS crisis decimated the gay community. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me on. It was a pleasure."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 0, "text": "That's \"Love And Mercy\" from Brian Wilson's new solo album. Brian Wilson, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I was sitting in a crummy movie with my hands on my chin. Oh, the violence that occurs. Seems like we never win. Love and mercy, that's what you need tonight. So love and mercy to you and yo"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 1, "text": "On the new album, you play most of the instruments. You record most of the voices yourself. When you write a song, do you hear all the harmonies in your head as you write it - all the vocal harmonies?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hi. How are you, Terry?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 2, "text": "You do them one at a time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I do. I hear most of them in my head as I write them. We used to go do the whole group at once. You know, The Beach Boys group, we'd all do the - we'd do all the voices in one thing, on one micr"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 3, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 4, "text": "How would you teach the harmonies to The Beach Boys when you were working with them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One at a time, yeah. One voice at a time, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 5, "text": "So you'd sing the part to each of them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I worked with The Beach Boys, I taught them one at a time also, you know, and then we all - we would rehearse as a group, and then we'd put it on tape. Then we'd go to the microphone and put it o"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 6, "text": "How do you think The Beach Boys feel about you going solo? Do they mind?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 7, "text": "You've said that your early sound was influenced by The Four Freshmen.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nah, I don't think so. I don't think The Beach Boys mind at all. Nah, I think they're happy. They - we had a corporation meeting in Chicago three weeks ago, and Al and Carl both congratulated me on th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 8, "text": "Now, a lot of people would have thought of The Four Freshmen as being a really square...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 9, "text": "...Group in their harmonies. What did you really like about them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 10, "text": "What else did you listen to when you were young?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What did I like? I liked the way they blended their voices, you know, the sound they made as they blended their voices. I liked it. I thought they were great. I didn't see anything wrong with The Four"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 11, "text": "How did you start singing in falsetto, and how did you figure out that you could have a falsetto voice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I listened to Rosemary Clooney and The Four Freshmen and just different people, you know?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, because I used to practice my - the Freshmen with the high voice in The Four Freshmen, and his name was Bob Flanigan. And I'd practice along with him. Whenever I'd hear Freshmen songs, I'd sing "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 13, "text": "The first songs that you wrote...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I got into it. I got into it, you know?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 14, "text": "...And recorded were surf songs. Now, you'd never surfed yourself, right? What was the inspiration for writing surfing songs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 15, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My inspiration for writing surfing songs goes back to my brother, Dennis, who drowned, of course, in 1983 - in December of 1983. He asked me if I would be interested in writing a song about surfing. H"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 16, "text": "You were actually afraid of water yourself, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Excuse me. I had a yawn. And I said, sure, I'll try it, and I tried it. And about a month later, we were on the Los Angeles charts, on the LA - the Los Angeles charts with \"Surfin',\" you know?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 17, "text": "Did you have to pretend like you were a surfer when The Beach Boys first got started?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. I have an aversion to water. I don't know what it is. I don't know exactly what it is. Could be that I think I saw somebody drown in a pool once. This guy drowned, and I saw the ambulance co"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 18, "text": "I want to play one of your early surf records.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not at all. We didn't play the role of surfers. We sang about surf and girls, but we did not, you know, whatever."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is \"Catch A Wave.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What song is that?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 20, "text": "OK. The production on this is just terrific. There's a harp. There's an organ.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Catch A Wave.\" Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 21, "text": "Great touches on it. Just say a little bit about how you produced this record.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 22, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Catch A Wave\"?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 23, "text": "What about the instrumentation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that was Michael and I wanted to do something where we would display the high voice, the medium voice and the bass voice all in one record, you know, at different intervals. You know what I mean"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 24, "text": "OK. Let's hear it. \"Catch A Wave.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The instrumentation was just two guitars, a piano, drums and a harp and stuff like that."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 25, "text": "I don't know if you listen to your old records very much, but what goes through your mind when you hear that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Catch a wave and you're sitting on top of the world. Don't be afraid to try the greatest sport around. Catch a wave. Catch a wave. Everybody tries it once. Those who don't just have to put i"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 26, "text": "Both.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, a lot of stuff. When I hear old records, it just flutters through my mind. I mean, in my - as far as my opinion of what it sounds like or my sentimentality to it?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I feel - first, I feel more artistically aware than sentimental, you know? My first reaction is usually an artistic, like, oh, I think my voice flattened. I wish I had just taken a few more minu"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 28, "text": "What about thinking about - thinking back to how you felt at the time you recorded it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that kind of thing crosses my mind, too. So there's artistic self-criticism, and then there's sentimentality. Those two ingredients go into that."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 29, "text": "And now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, well, I - the way I felt, you mean? Well, it was kind of like, when I was in my 20s or early 20s, I was full of energy, right? I mean, I darted around. I could do anything. I could produce a recor"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 30, "text": "Thirty-seven.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And now? I've slowed down a little bit. But because I've been exercising so much lately, I'm getting back my - I'm getting my second wind in life. You know what I mean? It's not like being 22 again an"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 31, "text": "I always have to think", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thirty-seven?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 32, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thirty-seven?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 33, "text": "A little bit, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Gosh, I mean, can you remember what it's like to be 22? It's just like..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 34, "text": "When you were writing songs like \"Fun, Fun, Fun\"...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Brian Wilson speaking with Terry Gross in 1988. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1988 interview with Brian Wilson. The death of the founder and central force of The Bea"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 35, "text": "...Did you think of yourself as having a lot of fun?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 36, "text": "OK. Now, you also wrote a lot of really melancholy songs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Mike came up with those words. But, yes, I did think of myself as having fun, fun, fun, but he mostly because he wrote those lyrics. He wrote that part of the lyrics."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 37, "text": "And, on \"Pet Sounds,\" for instance, you have a wonderful song, \"I Wasn't Made For These Times.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 38, "text": "When you wrote \"I Just Wasn't Made For These Times\"...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 39, "text": "...Was that how you were feeling?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 40, "text": "For what?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I wrote that, it was like, I really was feeling that way. Yes, I was, because I felt that I was being rejected by some of my friends, you know?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 41, "text": "Well, I want to play some of that song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Who knows? You know, I just felt a rejection from the public. I can't explain it, you know, any more than that. It was a very superpersonal thing. It was a personal thing that I cannot really go into "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 42, "text": "And this is from your 1966 album \"Pet Sounds\"...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 43, "text": "Which is really one of the legendary albums in", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 44, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 45, "text": "...In the history of rock 'n' roll.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, in the history of..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 46, "text": "Yeah. And do you want to say anything else about what you were feeling when you wrote this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 47, "text": "OK, so from \"Pet Sounds,\" this is Brian Wilson's \"I Just Wasn't Made For These Times.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. I had prayer sessions with my brother, Carl. And we both prayed for people's safety and wellbeing. We made this album with the fact that love was going to be the predominant theme in the album, "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 48, "text": "When you were recording the record that we just heard an excerpt of, \"Pet Sounds,\" I think that was during a period when you were doing a lot of drugs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I keep looking for a place to fit in, where I can speak my mind. And I've been trying hard to find the people that I won't leave behind. They say I got brains, but they ain't doing me no goo"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 49, "text": "How did the drugs affect your music both in the good ways and the bad ways that it affected...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I was."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 50, "text": "No way drugs can influence music in a bad way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the bad ways - there's no way drugs can influence music in a bad way. That's a misnomer."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 51, "text": "So you're saying that you'd use drugs for inspiration, but when you actually recorded, you tried to not be high? Is that what you're saying?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, music - I don't understand. Unless you feel that somebody would make - unless you'd call heavy metal a very negative statement, you know, a very obtrusive, a very unartistic or, let's say, des"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 52, "text": "OK. You went through a period of time where you barely left the house and didn't do much recording or producing at all. What did you do during that time? What was life like for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no. No high in the studio, no."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 53, "text": "Besides drugs and stuff, what gave you pleasure?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I took a lot of drugs. I kept taking more and more drugs to get away from the rattlety-bang, nerve-wracking aspects of life, you know? I kept telling myself, turn it down, somebody, turn it down"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 54, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what gave me pleasure? Well, when I heard a first Phil Spector record on the radio, I said, you know, Phil..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 55, "text": "It's really a thrill to hear a new record from you and also to have the opportunity to sit across the table from you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That Phil knows exactly what to put out there. He knows the formula, the secret, you know, of rock 'n' roll. And I used to look up to the guy. And then I said to myself, you know, you can't, all your "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 56, "text": "And interview you. And I was wondering how you feel about being back in the public eye like this again. It's really been a long time since you've done interviews and appeared before the public.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 57, "text": "Yeah. It's a long time ago.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's just been so long that it's such a - it has so much impact on me, you know? I haven't done this kind of a promotional tour ever since, like, the early Beach Boy days, you know?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 58, "text": "How are you pacing yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It really is. It was like 25 years ago, I guess, we were into that. Oh, I'm telling you, it was something."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 59, "text": "I would like to end with another selection from your new album.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm not smoking cigarettes, and I'm not doing things like that for crutches. You know, people sit and have a cigarette break every 10 minutes, right? Well, I don't do that anymore. I don't smoke"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 60, "text": "And I want to play \"One For The Boys,\" which is an homage to The Beach Boys where you do all the voices.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 61, "text": "Tell us a little bit about what you're doing here.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 62, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "On the voices?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 63, "text": "And you do all the voices on it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "On that song, \"One For The Boys\"? It was all sort of a little song in tribute to The Beach Boys. And it has no instruments on it, just voices. It had one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, ni"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 64, "text": "Thank you so much for joining us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I did all the voices on it."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 65, "text": "And I wish you the best. Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're welcome."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 66, "text": "Brian Wilson, welcome back to FRESH AIR. It's a great pleasure to have you here.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Another car running fast, another song on the beach. I take a trip through the past when summer's way out of reach. Another walk in the park when I need something to do. And when I feel all "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 67, "text": "This is your first CD of new songs in 10 years. Why now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hi, how are you?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 68, "text": "When you say that you were hurt that the other record didn't do so well, I mean, how exactly did it affect you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, because - I was a little bit hurt because the first one didn't sell very well. So I kind of felt hurt about that, so I laid off for quite a long time. In the - but in the interim, I wrote a lot "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 69, "text": "Now, on your new CD, you've recorded all the vocal parts yourself. You do all the voices on it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I expected it to be a very big album because it was a good album, and it didn't sell very much at all. So I felt kind of hurt by that."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 70, "text": "What's your technique for doing that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 71, "text": "So you're not singing harmony yet, you're singing the same note on each of these tracks?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the technique is many things. One technique is we do one track, and then we do it over again, and again, and again, four times the same track, reinforcing each note stronger and stronger. Yep."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 72, "text": "Yeah, why is that? Just to make it kind of bigger? Whoops.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no, we sing harmony, but each note of the harmony has four on the same. You know what I mean?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 73, "text": "So it makes it sound almost like a whole curtain of voices, like a whole background of voices, instead of just a couple of people singing harmony.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You can make it bigger and fatter and nicer sounding, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 74, "text": "I want to play another track from the new CD. And this is a song called \"Happy Days.\" And I understand this is a song you started many years ago.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, right. Exactly."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 75, "text": "When did you start it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 76, "text": "What was inappropriate about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In 1970, I wrote two verses, and we recorded it - by the Beach Boys - and we shelved it. We junked it because it wasn't appropriate music for us."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 77, "text": "Was it too sad?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it just didn't sound right. It had the wrong kind of sound for the Beach Boys. It was too much of a departure."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 78, "text": "Would you recite one of the verses for us from the early part of the song that you thought was too sad for the Beach Boys?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it was too sad. It really was."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 79, "text": "Yeah, I once felt so far from life. Do you - you don't feel that way anymore?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I once was so far from life, no one could help me, not even my wife. That's sad lyrics."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 80, "text": "Why don't I play the song, and then we can talk about how you've produced it? And as our listeners will hear, it has an unusually discordant beginning. Here it is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, I feel much a part of life, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 81, "text": "That's \"Happy Days\" from Brian Wilson's new CD, \"Imagination.\" The beginning is so discordant. It's such a different kind of sound for you, both in terms of the vocal harmonies and the music...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Dark days were plenty, never-ending sorrow. Only the past with uncertain tomorrow. Oh God, the pain that I've been going through. Raining in my heart to my emotional rescue. I used to be so "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 82, "text": "...Behind the voices. Tell me about why you wanted that sound on this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 83, "text": "In the record, it almost sounds like there's a newscast or a radio broadcast mixed deep...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wanted it to sound like something I was going through. Depict - I wanted it to depict the mood of my life at that time. And then it did. It depicted it."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 84, "text": "...Into in the background.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 85, "text": "So as if you were, like, you were picking up different signals that didn't belong?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was meant to depict the confusion in my life. That was the confusion part of it."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 86, "text": "Is that what you were feeling, then, that you were hearing things that you shouldn't have been hearing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, exactly."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 87, "text": "What kind of things were you hearing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, absolutely. Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 88, "text": "Did that interfere with your music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, voices in my head, auditory - just auditory hallucinations and stuff like that."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 89, "text": "Tell me more about producing \"Happy Days,\" and what else was in your thinking about how it should sound.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No, I was able to isolate the music from the voices."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 90, "text": "How has your life changed in the past few years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I wanted it to sound mellow with a little bit of love, but not too much love, and I wanted to depict the mood of my life. You know, as my life got happier, the voices got happier."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 91, "text": "I think you got married in 1995.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's changed quite dramatically with my new wife and my new babies. I have a whole new lease on life now. It's wonderful."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 92, "text": "And you've adopted two children since then.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 93, "text": "What's it like for you being a father the second time around? Your daughters...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 94, "text": "...Are grown now and are famous in their own right. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, there's no..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 95, "text": "Now, also your - another thing that's changed in your life is that you're no longer in therapy with Eugene Landy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Well, I wasn't a very good dad to my early - my original daughters. I wasn't really a good dad to them. But I'm a lot closer to my new babies now than I ever was. It's like a brand-new world, y"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 96, "text": "And I'm wondering how that relationship ended up splitting up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 97, "text": "His relationship with you is very controversial. Several people in your family thought that he was taking advantage of you financially and controlling you psychologically, and they...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he was forced to leave, you know, because he had controlled my life for, like, 9 1/2 years. And that was a long time to go."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 98, "text": "...Even sued him because of that. So how has it changed your life to no longer be in therapy with him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 99, "text": "What do you miss about him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's made it a little bit easier for me, not quite as hard to live day by day, you know? Day-to-day. But I miss him, you know, in some ways, too."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 100, "text": "Are you still in any form of therapy now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "His personality."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 101, "text": "You're seen so differently now than you were when The Beach Boys got started. You know, in the '60s, I think a lot of people saw The Beach Boys as, you know, great performers, but, you know, they were a teenage act that sang about surfing. And now, of course, you're seen as one of the great geniuses of rock and roll, both as a songwriter, as a performer and as a producer. And I'm wondering how that change in how you're seen - has affected you and how you see yourself.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Brian Wilson speaking to Terry Gross in 1998. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1998 interview with Brian Wilson. The founder of The Beach Boys has di"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 102, "text": "Now, why do you see yourself primarily as a singer? I mean, you've written so many great songs, and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I see myself as primarily a singer. And after that, maybe a producer and a writer, songwriter. But my main forte in life is singing, of course."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 103, "text": "So when you're not working on a new record, when you're not in the studio, are you still singing a lot?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know. I know, but I just - I feel the need to sing more than I do anything else. You know, it's kind of like that."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 104, "text": "And do you always sing your own songs? Do you ever sing songs by other people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. I sing every day at the piano. I go to my piano at least once a day and sing."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 105, "text": "What are some of the songs that you particularly love right now by other people that we might be surprised that you like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I sing all kinds of songs. I sing songs from Phil Spector, from myself and other people."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 106, "text": "Did you feel like you learned things from Burt Bacharach's production, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I like Burt Bacharach \"Walk On By.\" I like Phil Spector \"Walking In The Rain,\" records like that, really cool records."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 107, "text": "The Beach Boys, without you being part of them, have managed to, you know, continue their career by singing their old songs in performance. You never made yourself into an oldies act?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Actually, I did. I learned about chord changes and melodic thought. And Chuck Berry, of course, was probably the biggest influence on my melody writing."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 108, "text": "And I'm wondering, you know, on the one hand, it's easy to do that, you know, to kind of get by on work you've already done, songs you've already written.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 109, "text": "On the other hand, you always have new songs that are going through your head, new songs...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 110, "text": "...That you want to write and record. Do you ever wish that you were the kind of person who could be happy playing the old songs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 111, "text": "What is your current favorite of your old songs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, all the time. I think about that all the time. I'm wondering why I can't be happy with those old songs. It's just a strange feeling. I mean, it's like an nostalgia thing, you know? It's just I n"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 112, "text": "Why is that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I like \"California Girls\" the most, I think. I'm partial to \"California girls.\""}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 113, "text": "Why don't I give that a spin? But before I do, would you tell us a little bit about producing that record?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. I think the sound of the record, the way the record starts out, the choruses in the record I thought were really good."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 114, "text": "Did you write the lyric for it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I was 23 years old. And I went in the studio and I said, I'm going to cut a No. 1 record. So before I went to the studio, I went to my piano, and I said, I want to cut a shuffle beat, like (voca"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 115, "text": "And", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mike Love and I did, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 116, "text": "were you going through a period of girl watching, so to speak?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mike Love and I did, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 117, "text": "Right. OK, well, let's hear it. \"California Girls.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not really going through a period. We've always been that way. Mike and I have always been girl watchers. You know, so made it easy to write those lyrics."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 118, "text": "That's The Beach Boys, and my guest is Brian Wilson. You had a chance to remix some of your old music for...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Well, East Coast girls are hip. I really dig those styles they wear. And the Southern girls, with the way they talk, they knock me out when I'm down there. The Midwest farmers' daughters rea"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 119, "text": "With \"Pet Sounds,\" yeah, 'cause there was a new CD box...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You mean with \"Pet Sounds\"?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 120, "text": "...Of that that included a remixed mono version.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 121, "text": "A new stereo mix.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 122, "text": "As well as outtakes. What was it like for you to rework old music of yours?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 123, "text": "What were you going through in your life while you were producing \"Pet Sounds\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What was it like? It was like a big nostalgia trip, a sentimental trip that really took a lot out of me to go through that. It's probably the best album I ever produced. So I was very into it."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 124, "text": "What was happy about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was going through a happy time. It was a very happy time in my life."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 125, "text": "What were the new techniques that you tried in the studio for \"Pet Sounds\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was very - well, I was very happy about The Beach Boys' success, and I was very much in tune with the competitive aspect of life and the business. And just from there, I rambled on, you know?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 126, "text": "Is there a track that you think is your favorite from the record?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I tried to mix different instruments together to make a third sound, like an organ and a piano mixed together to make a third sound. I just used - I did a lot of mixing of instruments together. And I "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 127, "text": "Oh, that's a great song, too. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I like \"Caroline, No,\" the best."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5431557", "date": "2025-06-13", "guest": "The Beach Boys", "title": "Remembering Beach Boys founder Brian Wilson", "question_index": 128, "text": "Brian Wilson, I want to thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Larry Charles, has been an integral part of TV shows and films that both reflected and made an impact on American popular culture. He was a writer on \"Seinfeld,\" showrunner on \"Mad About You,\" a writer and executive producer on HBO's \"Entourage\" and a director and executive producer on \"Curb Your Enthusiasm.\" He directed Sacha Baron Cohen's films \"Borat\" and \"Bruno.\" He also collaborated with Bob Dylan on the film \"Masked And Anonymous.\" Larry Charles has a new memoir called \"Comedy Samurai: Forty Years Of Blood, Guts, And Laughter.\" When he says blood and guts, he means it. He and Sacha Baron Cohen took enormous risks with their films, in which Baron Cohen took his characters Borat and Bruno into the real world and shot scenes with people who thought Borat and Bruno were real people. To expose antisemitism, racism and homophobia, Baron Cohen's fictional characters pushed his targets to reveal their darker feelings and beliefs, and it sometimes ended in near violence, with Baron Cohen, Larry Charles and the crew fleeing. Larry Charles also did a documentary series called \"Larry Charles' Dangerous World Of Comedy,\" where he went to dangerous places run by authoritarian rulers or were controlled by militias to see what comedy was like there. Larry Charles, welcome to FRESH AIR. Welcome back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 1, "text": "So the book starts with you having a heart attack and thinking...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. It's great to be here again. Thank you so much."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 2, "text": "This might be the end. Did facing the prospect of death make you rethink parts of your life and lead you to think you should rewrite parts of the book?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Yeah, because there's part of the book where you write you realized you were the agent of your own misfortune.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it gave me a little more perspective on my own mortality. I have been obsessed with death since I'm a kid. But the reality of death and the obsession with death are two very different th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 4, "text": "And that happened after...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very much so, yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I had some bad agents, believe me. But I was..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 6, "text": "So you realized this after the heart attack, or you already knew it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was the agent of my misfortune."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 7, "text": "So you joined on the second season of \"Seinfeld.\" And often, shows have a so-called Bible that's supposed to lay out the tone and sensibility of the show and the shape of the episodes. What kind of prep were you given when you joined \"Seinfeld\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I had been sort of contemplating all those things. I've been through therapy. I mean, I've done a lot of self-reflection. When you're a writer and you're sitting alone in a room, you h"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 8, "text": "So one of your famous episodes is \"The Library,\" where Jerry has a book that he took out of the library in high school...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "None. I mean, the only thing I had was Larry had given me a couple of the scripts before the show premiered. And so I got to read \"The Chinese Restaurant\" and \"The Busboy\" and a couple of the other ea"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 9, "text": "...And is accused of having never returned it, although he's sure that he did. And in the scene I want to play, the librarian investigations officer, in the tone of a hard-boiled police detective, warns Jerry about the gravity of this violation and what the consequences might be for the larger society. And the librarian is played by the late and wonderful actor Philip Baker Hall.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 10, "text": "That is still so funny and seems so relevant.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Lt. Joe Bookman) In \"The Cat In The Hat\" and \"The Five Chinese Brothers.\" Doesn't he deserve better? Look, if you think this is about overdue fines and missing books, you better think again. This "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 11, "text": "It holds up so well. What afterlife has it had?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 12, "text": "So what was the genesis of the idea of it being, like, all of this hard-boiled stuff is about a library book?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's my favorite thing. I mean, when I hear it, sitting here listening to it, I had a big grin on my face. It's like it's joyous in some weird way, you know? And it also kind of illustrates why "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 13, "text": "One of the lines that \"Seinfeld\" fans always remember is, not that there's anything wrong with that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, again, you know, one thing about \"Seinfeld\" - and Larry went through this a lot as well. It's like, the desperation for stories. And we were always seeking some kind of premise, some kin"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 14, "text": "So I want to play that scene, and I have a couple of questions about it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 15, "text": "So just to set it up, Jerry, George and Elaine are at the restaurant where they're always meeting. And a reporter from the NYU paper is supposed to be meeting Jerry there for an interview. Elaine notices that a woman is staring at them, listening intently. She assumes this young woman is just eavesdropping on their conversation and thinks, well, why don't we make a game of it? Why don't Jerry and George pretend to be gay, and we'll watch this woman's reaction as she's eavesdropping. They don't realize that this woman is the reporter who's supposed to be meeting Jerry. So she overhears this, assumes Jerry and George are gay. She calls her editor, then leaves. The interview is rescheduled to take place at Jerry's home, and when the reporter arrives, George is there, and everything that George and Jerry say, she interprets as being about their gay relationship. So we'll pick it up in the middle of that scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 16, "text": "I love that scene. What was this based on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As George Costanza) Come on. Let's go. Come on."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 17, "text": "And how did you come up with the line, not that there's anything wrong with that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This was based on rumors about Jerry, and it seemed like people - because Jerry was so neat, which we talk about in this episode - Jerry was very neat, and he probably still is. And his shoes were alw"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 18, "text": "Wait, what were they nervous about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the episode was originally pitched the season before, and the network was - if you can believe this, at that time, the network was very nervous about doing that storyline. So the next year, I so"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 19, "text": "Why do you think that line caught on the way it did?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that the subject of homosexuality was still a pretty much of a nonstarter for networks at that time. In comedy and in drama, it was very rare to see a gay storyline on television, at that time"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 20, "text": "Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guess is Larry Charles, and his new memoir is called \"Comedy Samurai.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's, you know, like, a lot of great \"Seinfeld.\" You know, we had tried to come up with catchphrases just for fun, sometimes, like, those pretzels are making me thirsty was actually an attempt"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Larry Charles. He was a writer, director or executive producer on \"Seinfeld,\" \"Curb Your Enthusiasm, \" \"Mad About You\" and \"Entourage,\" and he directed the Sacha Baron Cohen films \"Borat\" and \"Bruno.\" Larry Charles' new memoir is called \"Comedy Samurai.\" You write about the time that Julia Louis Dreyfus came to the office in tears. She felt her character hadn't been developed enough, that her character was basically just a prop for the guys. There was not much for her to do. What was your reaction when she came to you that way? And what changed as a result?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's, you know, like, a lot of great \"Seinfeld.\" You know, we had tried to come up with catchphrases just for fun, sometimes, like, those pretzels are making me thirsty was actually an attempt"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 22, "text": "What was the story you gave her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first of all, seeing anybody cry is you want to help them in some way. And so - and I think that we all felt tremendously guilty. We all felt like she was right. And - but we weren't that adept "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 23, "text": "And is that when you started bringing on women writers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a story that Larry had had about - which was in that episode; I think it was the busboy, I'm not sure - where Larry had had a girlfriend from out of town come and stay with him. And he was exci"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 24, "text": "You say that it was you who really developed the character of Kramer, and you gave him his conspiratorial mindset. You had worked with him on \"Fridays,\" a sketch comedy show on Friday nights that didn't last long. But a lot of great people worked on it, including Larry David, who you work with in later years as well. So you saw this great potential in Michael Richards because of \"Fridays.\" You thought he was a real, like, comic genius. So tell us what you did to expand his character.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was around that time. The women writers still were very few and far between. Carol Leifer came on. There were two or three women writers who came on the show who did well. And, yes, there was a s"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 25, "text": "You know, you describe how traditionally in sitcoms, there would be the burst-into-the-room scene where the neighbor comes in and bursts into the room and tells what just happened. But all the action of what just happened, happened off screen. And it seems to me you really exaggerated that with Kramer because when he bursts into the room, he bursts in the room and skids across the floor.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that was kind of a convergence there because you had the real Kramer, whose name was Kenny Kramer, who was Larry's next-door neighbor. And he was kind of - and I say this all in very positive to"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 26, "text": "Larry David put a lot of his own life into the personality of George. Did you put part of yourself into the writing? And are there personal parts of your life, of your, you know, background story that you wrote in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. He was an amazing physical and is, I'm sure, still an amazing physical comedian. He had gifts, and those gifts I saw on display often on \"Fridays.\" He did things that you would just - you would b"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 27, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Larry Charles. And his new memoir is called \"Comedy Samurai.\" We'll be right back and talk more about his TV and movie work and his life after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think that my interests were kind of different than Larry's and Jerry's. I was more interested in, you know, the counterculture, the underground world. I loved underground comics and weird mus"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 28, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Larry Charles. He's been a writer, director and/or executive producer on TV shows and films that both reflect and made an impact on American popular culture - the TV shows \"Seinfeld,\" \"Curb Your Enthusiasm,\" \"Mad About You\" and \"Entourage,\" and the Sacha Baron Cohen films \"Borat\" and \"Bruno.\" You describe yourself as a punk from Brooklyn. In what sense did you think of yourself as a punk?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think that my interests were kind of different than Larry's and Jerry's. I was more interested in, you know, the counterculture, the underground world. I loved underground comics and weird mus"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 29, "text": "What made you love comedy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, there was a literal sense and a kind of a sensibility sense. Again, I was attracted to underground literature, Jean Gene, you know, Hubert Selby, \"Last Exit To Brooklyn,\" Charles Bukowsk"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 30, "text": "He was?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my father was a failed comedian."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 31, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he came out of World War II and used the GI Bill to go to the American Academy of Dramatic Arts. And he tried stand-up comedy for quite a while. His stage name was Sy Coe, the Exotic Neurotic. A"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 32, "text": "Well, just the fact that you had some kind of connection to that world must have made that world seem more reachable than it seems to most people.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...He would be quoting Jerry Lewis, you know? And so I was just exposed to that. And even though when - even when he dropped out of show business, he had a lot of friends who stayed in it not necessar"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 33, "text": "Is that how you ended up selling jokes in front of the comedy store?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It still was far away. I mean, we would be going back to Brooklyn. I mean, I couldn't imagine how to break through. It was really Woody Allen, reading about Woody Allen at that time in the '60s and ho"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 34, "text": "Do you remember the joke?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. I thought that is my - that's my one in. I can sort of write jokes. I didn't even have a typewriter. I mean, they were handwritten. And I would stand in front of the comedy store like a drug "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 35, "text": "So what would you do? Say, like, hey, buddy, want a joke? I mean, how come...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It had something to do with Delta Airlines, the airline run by professionals. What do they have on the other ones, amateurs? You know, something like that."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 36, "text": "...How come they would take you seriously and not, like, just push you away and keep walking?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 37, "text": "Great story. You were the showrunner for I forget which season of \"Mad About You.\" Was it the second season?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had paper. I had, like, legal pages with me, you know? I would literally shove it at them. I was, you know - at that time, things were much more open. You know, there wasn't, like, security issues o"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 38, "text": "Oh, OK. And Helen Hunt and Paul Reiser played a married couple who, you know, got along pretty well, plenty of comedy, but, you know, they were in love. And then you pitch them the idea of a two-season arc in which their marriage would be fraying. There was infidelity. But in the end, they would reconcile, and she would be pregnant. So, you write that you were basically writing a sitcom version of your life. What was happening in your life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was the fourth season, actually."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 39, "text": "Your infidelity, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Those very things. There was infidelity. There was a breakdown of the marriage. We were drifting."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 40, "text": "OK, time for another break here. Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Larry Charles. His new memoir is called \"Comedy Samurai.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mine, yes. And we were drifting as a couple after being together a long time and also having babies at the same time while all this was going on. So I thought, that is a challenge to - you know, I've "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 41, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Larry Charles. He's been a writer, director and/or executive producer on TV shows and films including \"Seinfeld,\" Curb Your Enthusiasm,\" \"Mad About You\" and \"Entourage,\" and the Sacha Baron Cohen films \"Borat\" and \"Bruno.\" You write that comedy should be dangerous. It should be risky. And it was quite literally dangerous and risky when you worked with Sacha Baron Cohen on \"Borat\" and \"Bruno,\" two fictional characters that you and he brought into the real world to interact with real people who had no clue that these characters weren't real. And, you know, you use them to expose sexism, antisemitism, racism, as well as some acts of kindness and generosity. The character of Borat was an antisemitic, misogynistic, racist, clueless journalist from Kazakhstan, who'd come to America to make a documentary about American ways. And Bruno was an over-the-top stereotype of a gay fashion reporter. And you'd film scenes of them interacting with real people, who have to react to these characters while these characters say and do very offensive things. So it was part of your job to deceive people and tell them that the fictional characters were real people. How did you feel comfortable doing that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mine, yes. And we were drifting as a couple after being together a long time and also having babies at the same time while all this was going on. So I thought, that is a challenge to - you know, I've "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 42, "text": "You know, one of the things I was thinking of - and, you know, it's been a while since I saw it, so correct me if I'm getting it wrong. But Bruno, the gay fashion journalist, is in a room with Bob Barr, who had been a conservative Republican congressman.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, again, growing up in Brooklyn, I had to extricate myself from many tense situations. And so I was kind of uniquely qualified to be able to weave a story to get out of trouble in some way. And so"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 43, "text": "That's Borat? Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's with Borat. That's Borat, actually."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 44, "text": "So go ahead. You describe it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 45, "text": "But you're putting him in such an uncomfortable position.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was going to say that Bob Barr, the scene with Bob Barr was great because it was - Borat would come in to meet people. And he would immediately give them - he would immediately kiss them first"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 46, "text": "And you're putting him in a position where he has to look foolish no matter what he does. So do you ever have pangs of conscience about things like that? And things get much more, like, personal and embarrassing for the people who are the targets.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 47, "text": "I'm trying to remember who it was with Bruno where, like, you've arranged it so that the lights go out and like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it is sadism in the name of satire to some degree. These are people that were, you know, in our view, ruining the country, making horrible decisions, prejudiced, racist. These were the people th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 48, "text": "That was Ron Paul, yes. So, like, the lights go out in the main part of the hotel room. So Bruno says, well, let's just go into the bedroom till the power comes back. And then he kind of strips to his underwear and starts doing this seductive dancing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was Ron Paul."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 49, "text": "And Ron Paul's pretending like, oh, I'm so engrossed in the newspaper, I don't even see what's happening. And then he eventually, like, throws down the newspaper and, like, walks out. In playing that scene back in my mind - and again, I haven't seen the movie in a while. But in playing that scene back in my mind, it's kind of sexual harassment.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 50, "text": "Whether you like Ron Paul or not, you're still putting him in the position of kind of sexual harassment.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's an interesting way of putting it. I mean, at that time..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 51, "text": "You compared some of the work that you did with Sacha Baron Cohen to being a war correspondent because you were both putting yourself in danger all the time. And you really had to flee sometimes. And the police were after you, too. And then, more recently, you did a series called \"Larry Charles' Dangerous World Of Comedy\" in which you went to countries in the Middle East and in Africa run by authoritarian governments, where there were militias, you know, with guns at checkpoints. You were in the middle of a volley of bullets at one point and thought, well, maybe this is the end. So the purpose of this documentary was to talk to people who were doing comedy in these kinds of places and see, well, who are these people and what's the comedy like? But, you know, like I said, you had compared what you were doing with Sasha Baron Cohen to being a war correspondent. And then for your \"Dangerous World Of Comedy\" series, you went to the places that war correspondents go to and experienced some of the more frightening aspects of being there. And I'm wondering if, like some war correspondents, you had PTSD or felt like maybe you'd become too addicted to, like, the adrenaline rush of putting yourself in danger.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Well, I guess I can't really argue with that. I mean, that may be true. And at that time, that didn't seem to be a big issue. We did that scene four times in one day, and each of the politician"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 52, "text": "You are so brave in your comedy. You take incredible physical risks. But you suggest in your memoir that in personal life, you're a little more cowardly about being honest. And the foremost example is with your first wife, when you were unfaithful, and then when you actually fell in love with another woman, and she was in love with you, and you had a long relationship on the side that your wife didn't know about. And you knew the marriage was over, but you stayed in it for years, and you said that you were afraid to hurt your wife's feelings. But you eventually ended it and married Keely, the woman who you'd been with for a long time on the side. And looking back on it, do you think, in your attempt to spare your wife the separation and letting her stay in a marriage that you were no longer committed to, made it worse for her when you did break up and when she did eventually find out that you had been with another woman for years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think both those things are partially true. I mean, I think that I did love the exhilaration that I got from directing \"Bruno\" and \"Borat.\" When we survived a scene and we would get back in the van,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 53, "text": "Let's take a short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Larry Charles. His new memoir is called \"Comedy Samurai.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I think I was very selfish. I think it took me a long time to face up to it. I think I was an emotional coward. I have no excuses for that behavior. And I have, instead, many regrets. I feel like"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 54, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Larry Charles. He was a writer, director or executive producer on \"Seinfeld,\" \"Curb Your Enthusiasm,\" \"Mad About You\" and \"Entourage.\" He directed the Sacha Baron Cohen films \"Borat,\" \"Bruno\" and \"The Dictator.\" Larry Charles' new memoir is called \"Comedy Samurai.\" I want to get back to your heart attack in March of 2024...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I think I was very selfish. I think it took me a long time to face up to it. I think I was an emotional coward. I have no excuses for that behavior. And I have, instead, many regrets. I feel like"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 55, "text": "...And your close call with death. You're Jewish by birth and culture, but, you know, you don't practice Judaism, and I don't think you believe in God, per se. You directed Bill Maher's documentary \"Religulous,\" and Maher really doesn't believe in God or religion and kind of scoffs at people who do. Some nonbelievers become believers. They start praying just in case there's a God when they think they might be facing death. What about you when you were afraid that you were really facing death?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 56, "text": "You write in your memoir that hugging and learning is anathema to comedy. And one of the mottos that - I don't know who came up with it - about Seinfeld was no hugging, no learning. And you go on to say coldness, callousness, uncaring, uncompassionate, disdain, skepticism, scoffing at seriousness - these are the building blocks of comedy, and there was no room for genuine emotion. Do you still feel like those negative feelings are the drivers of comedy, and there's no room for genuine emotion?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first of all, I can accept the idea that there may be some intelligence to the universe. How that manifests itself, I think, is beyond our comprehension. I didn't turn to God. I didn't - that wa"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 57, "text": "It's funny 'cause Jerry Seinfeld is often offered as the person who doesn't fit all of that, like, anger being the driving engine of his comedy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean, I think the only genuine emotion that really seems to sort of fuel comedy is anger. That is the emotion that I think does exist in comedy. And I think a lot of comedians are working thro"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 58, "text": "You write that now, you know, post heart attack, you think about death and impermanence every day, in addition to thinking more about trying to help people who are suffering and be more generous. Where else has that led you, thinking about death and impermanence?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's true, but I think there probably is more anger there than is - we see on the surface. And something we brought out in the show was that Jerry has a very dark side and a very cold side tha"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 59, "text": "Larry Charles, it's been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much for coming back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I've come to some sort of acceptance of the finite quality of this life. And that was something that was hard for me to really accept. I really did not like the idea. I still don't like the id"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5432574", "date": "2025-06-17", "guest": "Larry Charles", "title": "How Larry Charles went from selling jokes on the street to writing for 'Seinfeld'", "question_index": 60, "text": "Larry Charles' new memoir is called \"Comedy Samurai.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be Dan Taberski, creator of the podcasts \"Missing Richard Simmons,\" \"9/12\" and \"Hysterical,\" which won this year's Amby Award (ph) for podcast of the Year. He'll talk about why he's drawn to stories at the intersection of obsession, mystery and culture. \"Hysterical\" investigates an outbreak of mysterious symptoms among teenage girls in one high school. I hope you'll join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram, at @nprfreshair. FRESH AIR'S executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Sam Briger produced today's show. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi, Anna Bauman and John Sheehan. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson. Theresa Madden directed today's show. Our co-host is Tanya Mosley. We'll close with a song by Arthur Hamilton. The songwriter died May 20 at the age of 98. This is his most famous song, \"Cry Me A River,\" and this is the most famous recording of it, sung by Julie London. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Great to talk to you again, Terry. Anytime."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5430421", "date": "2025-06-20", "guest": "Edmund White", "title": "Remembering Edmund White, a writer who chronicled gay life and culture", "question_index": 0, "text": "When you were first starting to write and first trying to get published, do you think that being gay was an obstacle at all?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli. Edmund White, one of the most eloquent and perceptive chroniclers of gay life and culture, died earlier this month on June 3. He was 85. As a boy in the 1950s i"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5430421", "date": "2025-06-20", "guest": "Edmund White", "title": "Remembering Edmund White, a writer who chronicled gay life and culture", "question_index": 1, "text": "After your first or second novel, you co-wrote the book \"The Joy Of Gay Sex.\" And I wonder what effect that had on your literary career and - one, because it was a self-help-oriented book about sexuality; two, 'cause it was definitely a gay book. And you were a novelist - best known as a novelist until then.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, very much so. I have always written about gay themes from the time I wrote my first novel when I was 14 years old. And by the time I got into my 20s, I was writing novels with gay themes that were"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5430421", "date": "2025-06-20", "guest": "Edmund White", "title": "Remembering Edmund White, a writer who chronicled gay life and culture", "question_index": 2, "text": "Was that book a dramatic coming-out of sorts for you because there was no way to, you know, keep that you were gay in the closet at all, even - you know, even if you wanted to for one manuscript...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that it had - it didn't pigeonhole me as a sort of self-help writer amongst gay people because, well, the interesting thing is, if you compare \"The Joy Of Sex\" with \"The Joy Of Gay Sex,\" you s"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5430421", "date": "2025-06-20", "guest": "Edmund White", "title": "Remembering Edmund White, a writer who chronicled gay life and culture", "question_index": 3, "text": "...That you were submitting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5430421", "date": "2025-06-20", "guest": "Edmund White", "title": "Remembering Edmund White, a writer who chronicled gay life and culture", "question_index": 4, "text": "How much of a period did you go through of feeling very insecure about being gay? I mean, did you ever go so far as to, like, try to, you know, convert, so to speak?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was definitely a big coming-out for me, but it was very, very liberating to me personally. I think that my life took a turn toward being much happier after I wrote that book because I think for the"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5430421", "date": "2025-06-20", "guest": "Edmund White", "title": "Remembering Edmund White, a writer who chronicled gay life and culture", "question_index": 5, "text": "You know, I was thinking, reading this story about a first love, about - you know, when you were talking about looks and, you know, whether men like to be the pursuer or the pursued. And I was thinking if those kinds of things are much different when the relationship is gay than it is from when it's straight, you know? I was identifying with you. You know what I mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) Our love worked well because Randall was the one man in a thousand who welcomed devotion and who, like a medieval princess, believed in it only after it had been proved by many deeds and lon"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5430421", "date": "2025-06-20", "guest": "Edmund White", "title": "Remembering Edmund White, a writer who chronicled gay life and culture", "question_index": 6, "text": "You know, in the beginning of this story, you write about learning to be gay, learning certain behaviors, learning to dish...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Well, I think that - I mean, some people say that the burden of being a gay man is that you're supposed to be as successful as a man and as beautiful as a woman. I mean, in other words, you hav"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5430421", "date": "2025-06-20", "guest": "Edmund White", "title": "Remembering Edmund White, a writer who chronicled gay life and culture", "question_index": 7, "text": "...And then teaching it to others. What are the aspects of gay culture that you felt you actually learned?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5430421", "date": "2025-06-20", "guest": "Edmund White", "title": "Remembering Edmund White, a writer who chronicled gay life and culture", "question_index": 8, "text": "As you've gotten older, how has your idea of the ideal companion changed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, for sure. I mean, I think that, you know, there's a difference between being homosexual and being gay. I mean, I think homosexual is simply a question of desire for a certain kind of sexual encoun"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5430421", "date": "2025-06-20", "guest": "Edmund White", "title": "Remembering Edmund White, a writer who chronicled gay life and culture", "question_index": 9, "text": "In your new collection of essays, \"The Burning Library,\" you write about the first time you saw one of the backroom bars of Greenwich Village in 1970. And this was shortly after you got back to the village after living in Rome for close to a year. What was your reaction when you first saw that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that I now prize real intimacy more than I did before. Perhaps I didn't even know what it was. I mean, I lost my lover to AIDS this last March, and his name was Hubert. He was French. I "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5430421", "date": "2025-06-20", "guest": "Edmund White", "title": "Remembering Edmund White, a writer who chronicled gay life and culture", "question_index": 10, "text": "I want to read an excerpt from an essay you wrote in 1983 that was originally published in Vanity Fair called \"Sexual Culture.\" And you were writing, (reading) no homosexual can take his homosexuality for granted. He must sound it, palpate it. For that reason, all homosexuals are, quote, \"gay philosophers\" in that they must invent themselves. And then you wrote, (reading) on the other hand, no straight man stands in rapt contemplation of his straightness unless he's an ass.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thought it was a little bit scary, but also terrific. I mean, it seemed to me that - I mean, now that, because of AIDS, we all tend to act as though there was something abnormal and distressing and "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5430421", "date": "2025-06-20", "guest": "Edmund White", "title": "Remembering Edmund White, a writer who chronicled gay life and culture", "question_index": 11, "text": "So I guess, you know, like, so much of your life has been given over to writing about being gay, both in your essays and your autobiographies and your fiction.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thought it was a little bit scary, but also terrific. I mean, it seemed to me that - I mean, now that, because of AIDS, we all tend to act as though there was something abnormal and distressing and "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5430421", "date": "2025-06-20", "guest": "Edmund White", "title": "Remembering Edmund White, a writer who chronicled gay life and culture", "question_index": 12, "text": "So you think part of the reason why you became a writer was the sense of being the double agent?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I have the strange feeling that writing itself is somehow linked to homosexuality. And I haven't worked this out, so I won't be able to make any sense of it. But I think it's really very odd"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5430421", "date": "2025-06-20", "guest": "Edmund White", "title": "Remembering Edmund White, a writer who chronicled gay life and culture", "question_index": 13, "text": "Let me just backtrack for a second here. I think I know what you mean, but why would a straight person who stands in rapt contemplation of his heterosexuality be an ass?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Definitely. I think the very - when I first began writing, it was like a kind of desperate attempt to fight off the waves of self-hatred and guilt that I think were really threatening my sanity. I mea"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5430421", "date": "2025-06-20", "guest": "Edmund White", "title": "Remembering Edmund White, a writer who chronicled gay life and culture", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it'd be like a white person sort of looking at his own body..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5430421", "date": "2025-06-20", "guest": "Edmund White", "title": "Remembering Edmund White, a writer who chronicled gay life and culture", "question_index": 15, "text": "So it's about contemplating your difference.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And saying, oh, aren't I beautiful? I'm all white. I mean, you would just say, what a nitwit, you know. Whereas a Black person who says Black is beautiful, you can understand that because since the"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5430421", "date": "2025-06-20", "guest": "Edmund White", "title": "Remembering Edmund White, a writer who chronicled gay life and culture", "question_index": 16, "text": "In one of your essays, you write that, although at some point in your career you started writing for what you perceived as a sophisticated gay reader, earlier on as a writer, you saw your audience as an older European heterosexual woman.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, in other words, I think if you're coming from a persecuted minority, you need to redefine yourself, not in the terms of the dominant society, but in your own terms, in new terms that wil"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5430421", "date": "2025-06-20", "guest": "Edmund White", "title": "Remembering Edmund White, a writer who chronicled gay life and culture", "question_index": 17, "text": "Who is this idealized reader, and why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Well, I..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5430421", "date": "2025-06-20", "guest": "Edmund White", "title": "Remembering Edmund White, a writer who chronicled gay life and culture", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it was Mrs. Nabokov, and..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5430421", "date": "2025-06-20", "guest": "Edmund White", "title": "Remembering Edmund White, a writer who chronicled gay life and culture", "question_index": 19, "text": "Well, I want to thank you a lot for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because - and she actually would read my writing. And when I finally met her - I finally met her years later, after her husband had died at - I went to the Montreux Palace hotel in Switzerland and met"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5430421", "date": "2025-06-20", "guest": "Edmund White", "title": "Remembering Edmund White, a writer who chronicled gay life and culture", "question_index": 20, "text": "You write in the new book that what the Stonewall uprising changed was not love so much as self-esteem, on which mutual love depends. And I'm wondering how you think that sense of adventurous sex with many partners fits into the idea of self-esteem.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One of the things I wanted to show was the '70s as it felt when we were living through it, not from a moralistic '80s or '90s point of view. In other words, it seems to me that a lot of people have be"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5430421", "date": "2025-06-20", "guest": "Edmund White", "title": "Remembering Edmund White, a writer who chronicled gay life and culture", "question_index": 21, "text": "There's a passage I'd like you to read from \"The Farewell Symphony\" that is about the period and about that sense of sexual mania of the period.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, I think it's a double-edged sword. I mean, I think that oftentimes, I think at another point in the book, I say, a life entirely devoted to pleasure can be melancholy. And I think that's"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5430421", "date": "2025-06-20", "guest": "Edmund White", "title": "Remembering Edmund White, a writer who chronicled gay life and culture", "question_index": 22, "text": "I think that last line gets to exactly the kind of contradiction that I think runs through the book, you know? 'Cause every - so many of the impulses in this book seem to have contradictory impulses sitting right next to them. And this passage you read is really in praise of multiple partners, but then the character is also really yearning for that one person.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. (Reading) We equated sexual freedom with freedom itself. Hadn't the Stonewall uprising itself been the defense of a cruising place? The newer generation might speak of gay culture, but those of "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5430421", "date": "2025-06-20", "guest": "Edmund White", "title": "Remembering Edmund White, a writer who chronicled gay life and culture", "question_index": 23, "text": "So how do you explain that contradiction?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've always felt that in - yeah, I've always felt that in myself that when people - whenever I've had to write something about monogamy or marriage, I've always railed against it. It sort of wells up "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5430421", "date": "2025-06-20", "guest": "Edmund White", "title": "Remembering Edmund White, a writer who chronicled gay life and culture", "question_index": 24, "text": "That's Ed White, reading from the first chapter of his new autobiography, \"My Lives.\" Ed, welcome back to FRESH AIR. The first psychologist who you knew was your own mother, who - she became a child psychologist when you were young, and she practiced on you. The way you describe it, she practiced administering Rorschach tests on you and psychoanalyzing you. Was there anything inappropriate to you about that looking back?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Already, I hoped to be a writer, but as I was beginning to realize, successful writing entailed a grasp of universal values and eternal truths, which were necessarily heterosexual. Foolishly, I had im"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5430421", "date": "2025-06-20", "guest": "Edmund White", "title": "Remembering Edmund White, a writer who chronicled gay life and culture", "question_index": 25, "text": "Are you describing what actually happened, that she told you this, and that was how you reacted?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, looking back, yes. At the time, of course, I - you know, you don't really judge your parents that much. But now, looking back, yes, of course, I realize it was very crazy and that it wasn't - I "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5430421", "date": "2025-06-20", "guest": "Edmund White", "title": "Remembering Edmund White, a writer who chronicled gay life and culture", "question_index": 26, "text": "Were most of the psychologists you were sent to when you were young because you were gay, or there are other reasons why your mother sent you to psychologists, or that you wanted to see psychologists?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, she did really want to test me all the time. For instance, I remember she giving - she gave me a Rorschach, and she was very dismayed because I didn't see any human beings in it. I only "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5430421", "date": "2025-06-20", "guest": "Edmund White", "title": "Remembering Edmund White, a writer who chronicled gay life and culture", "question_index": 27, "text": "Is there anything that really surprises you about what has happened with gay culture since Stonewall? I mean, you were active in the gay rights movement, you know, back then, and you've watched gay culture evolve, gay life evolve. What surprises you most?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it was because I was gay, and it was mostly I was the one who initiated all this. I mean, I think I had - you know, Sartre talks about people who have bad faith, an act of bad faith. That is, they"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5430421", "date": "2025-06-20", "guest": "Edmund White", "title": "Remembering Edmund White, a writer who chronicled gay life and culture", "question_index": 28, "text": "You were diagnosed as being HIV positive back in 1985. I'm wondering how having that kind of cloud hanging over your head, of being HIV positive, has affected your life. You know, 'cause you probably thought at one point that that was an early death sentence. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think in the '70s that most gay leaders, who the visible, active leaders politically, were leftists. And it's because I think people who were conservative and gay felt they had nothing to gain"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5430421", "date": "2025-06-20", "guest": "Edmund White", "title": "Remembering Edmund White, a writer who chronicled gay life and culture", "question_index": 29, "text": "And, you know, thank goodness, it turned out not to be. But you didn't know that. So did you make changes in your life based on the fact that you thought that you might not have long to live?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I definitely did, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5430421", "date": "2025-06-20", "guest": "Edmund White", "title": "Remembering Edmund White, a writer who chronicled gay life and culture", "question_index": 30, "text": "Well, Ed White, I want to thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it's made me very productive. I mean, I think that I'm very grateful for every year that has been granted me. And so many of my contemporaries died. I mean, I belong to a writers group c"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5448715", "date": "2025-06-27", "guest": "Buddy Guy", "title": "Blues musician Buddy Guy shares how he 'accidentally' invented a new guitar sound", "question_index": 0, "text": "Explain this again. Her dress touched the G string?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Accidentally. Actually, in Chicago then, we didn't have stages. We'd always go in a corner and play. And they had jukeboxes during their breaks, and they would play tunes. And that's how I learnt, by "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5448715", "date": "2025-06-27", "guest": "Buddy Guy", "title": "Blues musician Buddy Guy shares how he 'accidentally' invented a new guitar sound", "question_index": 1, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I forgot to cut it off. And it was lying against the amplifier, you know?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5448715", "date": "2025-06-27", "guest": "Buddy Guy", "title": "Blues musician Buddy Guy shares how he 'accidentally' invented a new guitar sound", "question_index": 2, "text": "So then, how did you start using that yourself intentionally?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And as I said, we didn't have a stage. We were just in the corner playing. And she got up from her table to probably go get a drink or use the bathroom or something like that. And I said, wow, I forgo"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5448715", "date": "2025-06-27", "guest": "Buddy Guy", "title": "Blues musician Buddy Guy shares how he 'accidentally' invented a new guitar sound", "question_index": 3, "text": "Now, when you were recording for Chess Records back in the first part of the '60s, you were already doing some of this onstage, I think. But you've said that Leonard Chess didn't like that. He wouldn't let you cut loose.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, after I found out it would stay and distort that long, I just went up one day and played and stood right there where it was, and it works."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5448715", "date": "2025-06-27", "guest": "Buddy Guy", "title": "Blues musician Buddy Guy shares how he 'accidentally' invented a new guitar sound", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first of all, you know, Leonard had gotten to the point that, you know, for an example, if you had to went in there and said I want to do some rapping now, they would've shot you with a shotgun,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5448715", "date": "2025-06-27", "guest": "Buddy Guy", "title": "Blues musician Buddy Guy shares how he 'accidentally' invented a new guitar sound", "question_index": 5, "text": "Well, Buddy Guy, I want to play one of your first records with Chess recordings. And you were saying that Leonard Chess wouldn't let you do what you really wanted to. But this is a really pretty good recording. It's called \"First Time I Met The Blues.\" It was recorded in 1960. Little Brother Montgomery's at the piano. Do you remember the session?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know? And it was just like a joke to me."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5448715", "date": "2025-06-27", "guest": "Buddy Guy", "title": "Blues musician Buddy Guy shares how he 'accidentally' invented a new guitar sound", "question_index": 6, "text": "OK, well let's hear it. Recorded in 1960, my guest Buddy Guy on guitar and vocals.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that's Little Brother Montgomery's tune. Him and Willie Dixon got me together on that because I was with Cobra Records before that, and I got with Chess in the '60s, and that's the tune they brou"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5448715", "date": "2025-06-27", "guest": "Buddy Guy", "title": "Blues musician Buddy Guy shares how he 'accidentally' invented a new guitar sound", "question_index": 7, "text": "Let's go back to your very early years. Your father was a sharecropper. Did your parents want you to get off the plantation? Were you brought up with the sense of, when you get old enough, you should really get out of here?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) The first time I met the blues, people, I was walking, I was walking down through the woods. Yeah, the first time, the first time I met you, blue - blues, you know I was walking. I was walki"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5448715", "date": "2025-06-27", "guest": "Buddy Guy", "title": "Blues musician Buddy Guy shares how he 'accidentally' invented a new guitar sound", "question_index": 8, "text": "Were there any musicians on the plantation where you grew up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My parents was like - I got two sisters and two brothers, five of us. And they was, like, sharecroppers. And they would teach us all that when we got grown, if you go away - I want you to go away. Do "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5448715", "date": "2025-06-27", "guest": "Buddy Guy", "title": "Blues musician Buddy Guy shares how he 'accidentally' invented a new guitar sound", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Sooner or later, if you think back real deep, religious-wise, I guess we are in a way of speaking. But she could figure that out, and this guy was supposed to be some kind of distant relative of ou"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5448715", "date": "2025-06-27", "guest": "Buddy Guy", "title": "Blues musician Buddy Guy shares how he 'accidentally' invented a new guitar sound", "question_index": 10, "text": "So she got this guy to give you a guitar or teach you guitar?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that's just the way they had me feeling. And I kind of feel that way now with the music I'm playing and going and traveling around the world. Everybody I see looks and smiles the same, you know? I"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5448715", "date": "2025-06-27", "guest": "Buddy Guy", "title": "Blues musician Buddy Guy shares how he 'accidentally' invented a new guitar sound", "question_index": 11, "text": "Oh, you heard him playing and you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. My dad paid two bucks for it, and it had two strings on it. Now, first electric guitar I saw was Lightnin' Slim, and I give him my weekly allowances, which is 35 cents."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5448715", "date": "2025-06-27", "guest": "Buddy Guy", "title": "Blues musician Buddy Guy shares how he 'accidentally' invented a new guitar sound", "question_index": 12, "text": "So how did you get your first amplifier?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. He came through on a Sunday evening and plugged up on the storefront porch and played \"Boogie Chillen.\""}
{"id": "nx-s1-5448715", "date": "2025-06-27", "guest": "Buddy Guy", "title": "Blues musician Buddy Guy shares how he 'accidentally' invented a new guitar sound", "question_index": 13, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A stranger bought my first real guitar and my first real amplifier. He bought it for me. Actually, I was sitting..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5448715", "date": "2025-06-27", "guest": "Buddy Guy", "title": "Blues musician Buddy Guy shares how he 'accidentally' invented a new guitar sound", "question_index": 14, "text": "So who was he?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...On my sister's porch with the two strings, trying to get - my first year in a high school. My mother had had a stroke. And a stranger passed and said, son, I bet if you had a guitar, you would lear"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5448715", "date": "2025-06-27", "guest": "Buddy Guy", "title": "Blues musician Buddy Guy shares how he 'accidentally' invented a new guitar sound", "question_index": 15, "text": "So do you feel like you still owe him a lot of thanks? Do you feel like you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The guy's name was Mitchell. He grew up as a boy with my dad. And after he bought the guitar, my dad tried to trace him down, which - he moved to Chicago and became a preacher. And we never did - coul"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5448715", "date": "2025-06-27", "guest": "Buddy Guy", "title": "Blues musician Buddy Guy shares how he 'accidentally' invented a new guitar sound", "question_index": 16, "text": "...weren't able to express...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A lot."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5448715", "date": "2025-06-27", "guest": "Buddy Guy", "title": "Blues musician Buddy Guy shares how he 'accidentally' invented a new guitar sound", "question_index": 17, "text": "You left the plantation when you were 21. You went to Chicago?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A lot. A lot. And I'm sure, wherever he is at this point, if there's any way that he should know, he should know I want to thank him, and I owe my whole career to him."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5448715", "date": "2025-06-27", "guest": "Buddy Guy", "title": "Blues musician Buddy Guy shares how he 'accidentally' invented a new guitar sound", "question_index": 18, "text": "Not 21?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no, no."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5448715", "date": "2025-06-27", "guest": "Buddy Guy", "title": "Blues musician Buddy Guy shares how he 'accidentally' invented a new guitar sound", "question_index": 19, "text": "Oh. Oh, I see.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I left the plantation trying to get the one year of high school and went into Baton Rouge."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5448715", "date": "2025-06-27", "guest": "Buddy Guy", "title": "Blues musician Buddy Guy shares how he 'accidentally' invented a new guitar sound", "question_index": 20, "text": "Wow, you really remember...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then I left Baton Rouge September 25, 1957, 8:40 a.m. in the morning."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5448715", "date": "2025-06-27", "guest": "Buddy Guy", "title": "Blues musician Buddy Guy shares how he 'accidentally' invented a new guitar sound", "question_index": 21, "text": "...Exactly the moment.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5448715", "date": "2025-06-27", "guest": "Buddy Guy", "title": "Blues musician Buddy Guy shares how he 'accidentally' invented a new guitar sound", "question_index": 22, "text": "Tell me about that moment.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can't forget that."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5448715", "date": "2025-06-27", "guest": "Buddy Guy", "title": "Blues musician Buddy Guy shares how he 'accidentally' invented a new guitar sound", "question_index": 23, "text": "Did you see her again after you left?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mother was sick. And she had had a stroke, and she kept telling me, if you don't - don't live my life around her. Because we was very close, and I figured that, you know, I should stay. And she sai"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5448715", "date": "2025-06-27", "guest": "Buddy Guy", "title": "Blues musician Buddy Guy shares how he 'accidentally' invented a new guitar sound", "question_index": 24, "text": "OK. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5448715", "date": "2025-06-27", "guest": "Buddy Guy", "title": "Blues musician Buddy Guy shares how he 'accidentally' invented a new guitar sound", "question_index": 25, "text": "So you went to Chicago. Why did you choose Chicago?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I went to see her every year until she passed away. She passed away April 16, 1968. I had been jamming with Hendrix when she passed away. Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5448715", "date": "2025-06-27", "guest": "Buddy Guy", "title": "Blues musician Buddy Guy shares how he 'accidentally' invented a new guitar sound", "question_index": 26, "text": "So were you playing on the street for money?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't go to Chicago to be a musician. I went there looking for better common labor employment. And I got there and got stranded and winded up being forced to play guitar, 'cause at one point in my "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5448715", "date": "2025-06-27", "guest": "Buddy Guy", "title": "Blues musician Buddy Guy shares how he 'accidentally' invented a new guitar sound", "question_index": 27, "text": "Muddy Waters said that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No, I - this stranger met me on the street and led me - and I played a Jim Reeves song for him, and he led me to this famous club. It was the 708 Club. And that's the address, 708 East 47th Street"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5448715", "date": "2025-06-27", "guest": "Buddy Guy", "title": "Blues musician Buddy Guy shares how he 'accidentally' invented a new guitar sound", "question_index": 28, "text": "So what happened next? Then you started getting bookings?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5448715", "date": "2025-06-27", "guest": "Buddy Guy", "title": "Blues musician Buddy Guy shares how he 'accidentally' invented a new guitar sound", "question_index": 29, "text": "Tell me more about what the blues scene was like in Chicago when you started playing there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. They start coming - yeah, well, at local clubs. Not at - we didn't have - there wasn't no such thing as booking and traveling, but I got to work in that club and a few more. They had a million clu"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5448715", "date": "2025-06-27", "guest": "Buddy Guy", "title": "Blues musician Buddy Guy shares how he 'accidentally' invented a new guitar sound", "question_index": 30, "text": "Were there, like, blues cutting contests?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For 6 1/2 or seven years, I didn't know what was the weekend. I had to go back and ask somebody when was Sunday because we even had jam sessions start at 7 o'clock on Monday morning, and you couldn't "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5448715", "date": "2025-06-27", "guest": "Buddy Guy", "title": "Blues musician Buddy Guy shares how he 'accidentally' invented a new guitar sound", "question_index": 31, "text": "I saw you in Buffalo at the state university there. I guess it was the late 1960s. And the way I remember it, you started off on stage, but midway through the concert, you were, like, down the aisles, out the door, through the other end of the student union, and I think you maybe let us all outside and then back in again. I don't remember if I've exaggerated or not over the years, but you led us pretty far on that.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Blues guitarist Buddy Guy speaking to Terry Gross in 1993. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1993 interview with legendary blues guitarist Buddy Guy, "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5448715", "date": "2025-06-27", "guest": "Buddy Guy", "title": "Blues musician Buddy Guy shares how he 'accidentally' invented a new guitar sound", "question_index": 32, "text": "Did you have to get really, really, really long guitar wires from your guitar to the amplifier in order to walk as far as you did?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's the same thing was happening in Chicago. I had sense enough to know I couldn't challenge Muddy Waters or Howlin' Wolf or some of those great giants who I was learning from. And I was just"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5448715", "date": "2025-06-27", "guest": "Buddy Guy", "title": "Blues musician Buddy Guy shares how he 'accidentally' invented a new guitar sound", "question_index": 33, "text": "You know, it's funny. You've gone from being, you know, a younger person trying to establish himself and trying to figure out who he is and what makes him different from everybody else to being now, you know, one of the blues legends that everybody wants to emulate. You've talked a lot about how you felt like you really had to, like, work hard and outdo everybody else, you know, to call attention to who you were. Do you still -does that still motivate the kind of show that you do? I mean, 'cause now you're Buddy Guy. I mean, everybody knows who you are.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, actually, I saw Guitar Slim with that. First of all, when I first got to Chicago, I would go to the shop to have this wire made. They wouldn't make it 'cause they'd tell me it wasn't going to wo"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5448715", "date": "2025-06-27", "guest": "Buddy Guy", "title": "Blues musician Buddy Guy shares how he 'accidentally' invented a new guitar sound", "question_index": 34, "text": "Do you still have the energy to do the kind of show you used to do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not quite everybody. You know, I'm not as well-known as some people who play the guitar out there. I wish that I were, you know, then maybe I wouldn't have to work so hard. But in another sense, maybe"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5448715", "date": "2025-06-27", "guest": "Buddy Guy", "title": "Blues musician Buddy Guy shares how he 'accidentally' invented a new guitar sound", "question_index": 35, "text": "Let me ask you about the influence of B.B. King on your playing and what the influence has been, and what - where the point of departure is. You've known him a long time. You've been on stage with him a bunch of times. Tell me a little bit about his influence on you, and also how you feel very different from him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know if I have as much as I had. I'm not going to lie to you and tell you I feel like I was when I was 17 years old. But when I pick up my guitar, I feel like I'm 14."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5448715", "date": "2025-06-27", "guest": "Buddy Guy", "title": "Blues musician Buddy Guy shares how he 'accidentally' invented a new guitar sound", "question_index": 36, "text": "Buddy Guy, I have one last question for you. We started recording this interview at 9:30 in the morning. And there are very, very few musicians who will wake up to do a 9:30 in the morning interview. You're on the road. You're in the middle of a tour. How the heck did you get up this early?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, let me put it to you like this. His influence should be on every guitar player that picks up a guitar, because he told me when I first met him he didn't learn how to use the slide. And we all - "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5448715", "date": "2025-06-27", "guest": "Buddy Guy", "title": "Blues musician Buddy Guy shares how he 'accidentally' invented a new guitar sound", "question_index": 37, "text": "Buddy Guy, thank you so much. It's really been such a pleasure to talk with you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, honestly, I'm a - I'm still a country farm boy, and I don't want to change that in all of my life. I don't care how late I stay up or what. I still get the sleep that I think I need. But it's ju"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today's guest writes, there is absolutely no doubt that I was 100% sexualized as a child. She's referring to when she was a preteen child star, modeling herself on Madonna. You probably don't know her name - Tamara Yajia - because she grew up in Argentina in Buenos Aires and moved to America in 1995 when she was 13. The move was initially traumatic because she was about to become an even bigger star in Argentina after landing a role in the cast of a new TV show, which became the Argentinian equivalent of \"The Mickey Mouse Club,\" and it was a big hit. But she was denied that opportunity because her family had already planned to move to the U.S. Argentina's economy was in a downturn. The middle class was collapsing. Her father's business had gone bankrupt, and the family was broke. It was the second time the family moved to California. This time, as they were in the immigration and naturalization office about to get their green cards, they were nearly deported instead because they'd overstayed their visa. Yajia now lives in LA, which has been at the epicenter of President Trump's efforts to deport people who are here illegally, and some legal residents have been swept up in the process. Tamara Yajia has written a new memoir called \"Cry For Me, Argentina: My Life As A Failed Child Star.\" It follows her tumultuous life - moving with her family from Argentina to California, then back to Argentina, then back to the U.S. in an eight-year period of her childhood. She also writes about what it was like being Jewish in Argentina. Yajia has given up on a music career, but she's channeled her creative energy into writing. She was a writer for The Onion and Funny or Die and has written for several TV series, including Apple TV's \"Acapulco,\" the Hulu series \"This Fool\" and several other shows. Tamara Yajia, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 1, "text": "When I was reading about your early childhood performances in Buenos Aires on your way to being a childhood star, I was very worried about you. First of all, things weren't going well for you. You were biting people. You were getting scolded for trying to be funny by pushing boundaries. A child psychologist diagnosed you as having developmental issues. Your parents had sent you to a Hebrew school where the afternoon was all in Hebrew and Talmud study, and you didn't understand Hebrew. Then you saw a Madonna music video of \"La Isla Bonita,\" and you decided to dance and lip-sync to Madonna's \"Like A Prayer\" in your Hebrew school talent show with rabbis and audience - in the audience and lots of parents. So I want you to describe your performance, what you did for your choreography and what you wore.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much, Terry, for having me."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 2, "text": "Yes, well.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 3, "text": "So describe your choreography and the knife.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This was all my decision. I was the creative director of my performance. I wore a American flag T-shirt that went down to my knees. It belonged to my father, and I had my great-aunt Babala (ph), who w"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 4, "text": "And in the music video, she uses it basically to put stigmata in her hands.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had a knife in my hand just like Madonna did in the \"Like A Prayer\" music video."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 5, "text": "Your parents didn't know what your routine was going to be 'cause you wanted to surprise them. What was their reaction?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I had no idea what any of that meant. I mean, being raised Jewish, I didn't even know about Judaism, to be honest with you. I was just copying this amazing, confident woman that I had seen on MTV"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 6, "text": "What do you mean by that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My parents, they were not horrified, to be honest with you. They saw me expressing myself, and sex had been so normalized in my household that they were in awe of me, which tells you a lot. And, you k"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 7, "text": "Well, parenthetically here, I'll mention that for family fun, your grandmother would drive the whole family to the Buenos Aires red light district to look at the sex workers and, you know, how attractive some of them were. How old were you, and what was that experience like? And do you think that connects to the larger story that you're telling here?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think they - my parents may have been too focused on themselves and too much was permitted, and they just saw us as these, you know, extensions of themselves that were on this fun ride along with th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, your grandparents - I think this is on your mother's side - met at a brothel, where your grandmother was a cook and your grandfather was a patron, and he tasted her cooking, and they got married a few weeks later. And you said that, like, most of the people who worked at the brothel were Jewish.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I must have been - when we first started going, I was like 8 or 9, you know? And it was a family outing, which, to me, felt totally normal at the time. And I write that my grandfather wa"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 9, "text": "You got to the point, you say, where you started to lock eyes with men and you worried if they didn't look at you sexually. How did you interpret those looks as a preteen who didn't really understand what sex was yet? Like, sex was normalized in your family, but that doesn't mean you really understood it or saw it or, you know, knew what it was.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, and I did some research on this, and it blew my mind, Terry, because there were a lot of women from Poland, you know, back in the pogrom days, that would get brought over to Argentina and they wo"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 10, "text": "Was there anyone who tried to protect you from yourself and from the men?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, and it felt so horrible. It was so confusing. Like, the main thing I could say about it was just not understanding these feelings of, you know, a mixture of sexuality and, like, horniness, I descr"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 11, "text": "When did you realize how inappropriate and potentially dangerous your situation was?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 12, "text": "It's a good verb. I'm not sure I've heard it before.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "but I'm 41. I started really, really doing therapy, and it wasn't until I wrote this book. So it was a combination of those two things. I had never - for many years, I never even talked about the fact"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 13, "text": "But I like it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "but I'm 41. I started really, really doing therapy, and it wasn't until I wrote this book. So it was a combination of those two things. I had never - for many years, I never even talked about the fact"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 14, "text": "Why do you think it took you so long?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let's pretend like it is. But, yeah, and so it was because of having an amazing editor that it served like therapy. And I went back, and I really looked at what that meant."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 15, "text": "Yeah, that's how you start the book, explaining that 95% of you didn't want kids, 5% did, and then the 5% wouldn't let go of you. And you decided - well, why don't you explain what changed your mind.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was survival mode, I think. I may have not been ready to see things until I wrote this book. I think I just needed the time to be prepared and strong to understand how difficult it was. And it's cr"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here because we have to take a break. My guest is Tamara Yajia, and she has a new memoir called \"Cry For Me, Argentina: My Life As A Failed Child Star.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was scared that I would not be a good parent to a child because of the upbringing that I had. I'm getting emotional. But I was scared that history would repeat itself. And after writing this book, I"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Tamara Yajia. Her new memoir is titled \"Cry For Me, Argentina: My Life As A Failed Child Star.\" The title refers to growing up in Argentina and moving to the U.S. with her family just as she was about to become a cast member on the Argentinian equivalent of \"The Mickey Mouse Club.\" Tell the story of how you found out that you had got the part on the TV show, and that at the same time, you couldn't take it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was scared that I would not be a good parent to a child because of the upbringing that I had. I'm getting emotional. But I was scared that history would repeat itself. And after writing this book, I"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 18, "text": "This was your dream, which was about to be fulfilled, except that it wasn't going to be.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, we got a phone call from my agent, I think. And what was I, like, 11 years old? And I picked up the phone receiver, and my mom picked it up at the same time. And I overheard the whole conversati"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 19, "text": "So just one more thing about performing. What were your performances like when you stopped doing the Madonna thing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, this is what I had worked so hard for. This was the ultimate dream. And this kind of stuff sticks with you, right? Like, I always I feel like, for the rest of my life, whenever good things happe"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 20, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I started singing, it was over track. So it was kind of like karaoke, but I had a different pick of songs. I did a lot of Ace of Base, but I would sing it, so I had the tracks. And a lot of chore"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 21, "text": "OK. So your family decided to move to the U.S. because your father's business went bankrupt, the family business went bankrupt. The whole middle class was collapsing. And they needed to make a fresh start and thought that California would be a better place to try to do it. So this was the second time that your family left Buenos Aires for California. And the first time around, you studied English as a second language. How helpful was that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was really cute."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 22, "text": "I kind of forget whether it was the first or second time you were in LA that your parents opened up a stall at the mall food court.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was so amazing, Terry. I don't remember learning English. It's wild because it must've been three or four months and I was fluent. And it was amazing. I describe it as the Tower of Babel. But it wa"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 23, "text": "And it was a knockoff of a place that was called El Pollo Loco, which is The Crazy Chicken.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 24, "text": "And so the name they came up with was The Sexy Chicken.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 25, "text": "And so I want you to describe what the logo looked like.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 26, "text": "So your grandfather had a store in the same mall that sold stationery and children's toys. You must've really felt like you owned the mall.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it had a mole drawn on, kind of like a sluttier Marilyn Monroe, if you will. And the business failed after, like, six months. So, my God, I tried revisiting the Fallbrook Mall, which is where that"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I call myself - I was the feral child of the mall."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 28, "text": "So your singing and dancing teacher in Buenos Aires gave you a note when you left for the final time to actually live for real in California. And she wrote, dear Tamara, never forget that you are a star. Don't give up what you've started. You know what's in California? Hollywood. Now, go get them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it was my happy place. That also shows, like, the lack of boundaries and codependency issues in my family that my father opens up the food court stand, and my grandparents literally move from Arge"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 29, "text": "So describe your attempt to do that in front of Grauman's Chinese Theatre. And this is the theater on the Hollywood Walk of Fame where Oscar ceremonies had been held, big movie premieres. So tell us what you did.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 30, "text": "Were you singing at the same time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "and striking poses in hopes that a manager would find me and rediscover me in the United States, which is so sad, but also so incredibly funny to me. And, you know, my parents walked around behind me,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 31, "text": "Well, we need to take another break here, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Tamara Yajia. Her new memoir is called \"Cry For Me, Argentina: My Life As A Failed Child Star.\" We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I was not singing. I was just dancing to no music. Oh, my God. What a disaster."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 32, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Tamara Yajia. Her new memoir is called \"Cry For Me Argentina: My Life As A Failed Child Star.\" She grew up in Buenos Aires, where her Jewish great grandparents emigrated in the early 1900s. When she was 11, she started singing and dancing, modeling herself on Madonna. She toured and became pretty well-known. When she was 13, she was cast in the new Argentinian equivalent of \"The Mickey Mouse Club,\" but was devastated to learn she couldn't accept the role because the family was moving to California. The Argentinian economy was in a downturn. The family business was bankrupt. The middle class was collapsing. She writes about being sexualized as a child during the Madonna era of her life, becoming an immigrant and, for a while, living in fear because the family had overstayed its visa and was left undocumented. Now she lives in LA, the epicenter of the Trump administration's deportation efforts. Yajia's written for The Onion, Funny or Die, the Apple TV series \"Acapulco,\" the Hulu series \"This Fool\" and several other shows. So your family went to California on a tourist visa, I think with more luggage than tourists typically bring.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I was not singing. I was just dancing to no music. Oh, my God. What a disaster."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 33, "text": "And your father kept entering what was known as the Green Card Lottery. Can you explain what that is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 34, "text": "What do you have to do to enter the lottery?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, so every year the United States government grants - I'm not sure, let's say 40,000 visas to specific countries. And if you win this lottery, you and your family get naturalized. So we won that. "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 35, "text": "So the family finally won. At this point, though, you were undocumented 'cause your tourist visa had expired. So let's talk about the expiration period before your father got the go-ahead for the green cards. What could your family not do or not do legally?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think you pay. If I remember correctly, you pay some sort of sum of money, and you turn in - it's like a letter or like an application. It's pretty simple. I'm not sure - we may have had an attorney"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 36, "text": "Your parents couldn't work legally, but did they have a business and get paid in ways that they didn't have to declare their earnings?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We couldn't travel for one. We couldn't leave if we wanted to come back. I believe my parents had driver's license, which luckily they had obtained on our first trip here when it was - everything was "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 37, "text": "When you were scared and you worried about what was going to happen, what was the movie that you played in your head about how that would work?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I believe they still paid taxes. I don't know if it was under their Social Securities, but they still paid taxes, and they still worked. Their business was cash 'cause they drove food trucks, so it wa"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 38, "text": "So in the book, you say you actually did have - your parents did have a lawyer, an ultra-Orthodox Hasidic Jewish lawyer who told your family that they just had to show up and fill out the paperwork and they'd get the green card. So you were in the Immigration and Naturalization Service. The family was there. I think you were there - right? - with your parents?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God, terrifying. So I would - I remember my parents would leave for work at 3 in the morning, and I would stay with my little sister, who's four years younger. And I would dream that they would"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 39, "text": "Yeah. Tell us what you were told.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was there."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 40, "text": "So what did your lawyer do when your parents contacted him and he came and, you know, turned things around?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So we went in so happy because this lawyer said, it's going to be a piece of cake. It'll take two seconds. And I remember sitting down and just some guy - immigration officer who, you know, didn't eve"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 41, "text": "If you try to project that incident into the present, what do you see?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God. The guy was a maniac. He came in and started pounding on the doors of the immigration offices. Like, I don't know how he didn't get arrested. And he was, like - had a stained shirt with, l"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 42, "text": "You don't think you'd be visually targeted?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God. I can't put into words what is happening right now. And I - it brings up a lot. And I have to say that I'm lucky. I have fair skin, you know? Like, I don't feel like I would be targeted, b"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 43, "text": "Racially profiled?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think so."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 44, "text": "So, you know, I was reading in the New York Times their description of what's happening in LA. And this was - I was reading this on June 30. They said that there are parts of LA and Latino neighborhoods where it looks like the COVID shutdown, that people are so afraid to, like, take public transportation or buy anything from, like, a Latino market or a Latino, you know, truck. They're afraid to be seen on the street, and so a lot of the streets and shops are, like, empty.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think I would be racially profiled. No, not me. But then, again, I think of my parents driving food trucks in downtown LA in construction zones with, you know, thick accents, and they're drivi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 45, "text": "Did you witness any of the demonstrations, the National Guard?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I can see it. I also live downtown. So, you know, like, places like the flower market downtown, which is my favorite place to go on Saturday mornings and just buy flowers and make bouquets, is e"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 46, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I live, like, two blocks away from where everything happened, and it's weird 'cause I would put the news on for comfort, which is, like, exactly what I didn't..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 47, "text": "They were probably just narrating what was going on two blocks away from you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...The opposite of what I should be doing."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 48, "text": "Yeah, wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, totally. There was one moment where the - I was like, there's our apartment."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 49, "text": "Oh, good.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like, watching it on the news, but I don't know. It felt - I - it's crazy 'cause I was in a fight with my parents during this whole time, so we weren't speaking. And I was just following their locatio"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 50, "text": "'Cause you were processing your relationship with them and how they did or didn't protect you over the years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But this is what happens when you write a book, too, and you process so much stuff. It's like I was - I needed some - a break from them."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 51, "text": "On that note, we need to take another break here. So let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Tamara Yajia. Her new memoir is called \"Cry For Me, Argentina: My Life As A Failed Child Star.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, it's been really intense, Terry. I'm, like - all of this immigration stuff, my book, writing this book, processing stuff I'd never processed and on top of it, doing IVF 'cause I'm trying to "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 52, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Tamara Yajia. Her new memoir is called \"Cry for Me, Argentina: My Life As A Failed Child Star.\" The title refers to growing up in Buenos Aires, Argentina, and moving to the U.S. with her family just as she was about to become a cast member of the Argentinian equivalent of \"The Mickey Mouse Club.\" The memoir is also about growing up Jewish in Argentina. It's about being an immigrant to the U.S., spending part of that time undocumented and all the fear that that created in the family. In the U.S., in California, you eventually broke into the music business briefly and then discovered, like, your gift for writing and your love of writing and of reading. And the way you broke into the music business, 'cause you got to intern with and then work at Sony Records, you and a friend of yours, another girl, went to a Latin rock festival, and you were approached by a guy who asked you if you wanted to go backstage. When you said yes, he gave you an all-access pass, and then you ended up doing mushrooms with one of Mexico's most famous rock bands. You had just turned 18. Was this supposed to be a quid pro quo kind of thing? Like, you get the access pass and there's stuff that the band is going to expect from you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, it's been really intense, Terry. I'm, like - all of this immigration stuff, my book, writing this book, processing stuff I'd never processed and on top of it, doing IVF 'cause I'm trying to "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 53, "text": "Yeah, I was wondering, like, how did that happen? 'Cause I don't think you explain.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But it was - I talk about it in the book. Like, one time I found myself like in a - at a party with Stevie Wonder."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 54, "text": "You got hired after a few months. You were, like, working on press releases and working on tours sometimes. But then your mother told you that you'd make a much better living and would be able to buy a home if you got a job as an interpreter - a Spanish interpreter. And so you took a class. You got a job, and you hated it 'cause you were working at a hospital, and you were just repeating what people said, and it was all about, like, symptoms and disease and stuff. And you sank into a really bad depression. And I think that's one of the things that led you to get addicted to pills.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was just - we had gone to a show where one of these rock bands were playing, and we took a limo to the show, and it was like, oh, there's Stevie Wonder. And that's when I met this really co"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 55, "text": "Yeah, and then you end up dropping a pill while you were driving and looking down to try to find it and crashing into a bus and totaling the car, injuring your back. And then you stopped the pills, which is great that you were able to do that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, it had to come to a head at some point, all of the trauma. And I think becoming an interpreter, the least creative job - and I am a super creative person - it just broke me. And my mom h"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 56, "text": "So now you're trying to have a child, which is how you start your book, talking about why you decided to have a child. What do you want to do differently than how you were raised? Like, do you have this whole plan in mind of, like, what kind of mother you're going to be, which will, of course, change because nothing goes as planned. But do you have, like, a plan in mind or a vision?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I went all the way 'cause I was taking antidepressants. I was taking Vicodin. I was smoking pot. And then after the car crash - which was funny because there was a Buzz Lightyear advertisement fo"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 57, "text": "Tamara, it's really been fun to talk with you, even though part of what we talked about was very traumatic. You know, I don't mean the interview is traumatic, but we were talking about trauma in your life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think there's just - without going into it too much because there's - so much will change, like you said, but I just want this child to feel safe. It's very, very simple. I did not feel safe, "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 58, "text": "But it was really a pleasure to talk with you, and thank you for coming on the show and for, you know, talking openly about your life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ","}
{"id": "nx-s1-5451379", "date": "2025-07-03", "guest": "Tamara Yajia", "title": "A 'Failed Child Star' looks back on life in Argentina and Hollywood", "question_index": 59, "text": "Thank you for saying that. Tamara Yajia's new memoir is called \"Cry For Me, Argentina: My Life As A Failed Child Star.\" After we take a short break, Ken Tucker will review Bruce Springsteen's seven new albums, collecting previously unreleased material. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much. Thank you. Wow. This is a pinch-me moment."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5459788", "date": "2025-07-07", "guest": "Jennifer Senior", "title": "Can't sleep? Journalist Jennifer Senior says you're not alone in your insomnia", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. If you've ever had trouble sleeping, you know that the more you worry about not being able to fall asleep, the more likely you are to keep staying awake. So what do you do? Pills, therapy, meditation, or just learn to accept that you'll feel like a zombie the next day? My guest, Jennifer Senior, knows this feeling. She suddenly went from sleeping through the night to suffering from insomnia. That started about 25 years ago when she was 29. Senior is a staff writer at The Atlantic magazine, so she eventually decided to write an article about her own insomnia and the latest science surrounding sleep and insomnia. She interviewed some of the top sleep researchers. Her article in the new issue of The Atlantic is titled \"Why Can't Americans Sleep? Insomnia Has Become A Public Health Emergency.\" It's on The Atlantic website. The newsstand edition will be available July 15. Her article in The Atlantic about grief, love, loss and memory won a Pulitzer Prize. She also won two National Magazine Awards. She spent five years at The New York Times as a book critic and opinion columnist and 18 years at New York Magazine. She's also the author of the book \"All Joy And No Fun: The Paradox Of Modern Parenthood.\" Jennifer Senior, welcome back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5459788", "date": "2025-07-07", "guest": "Jennifer Senior", "title": "Can't sleep? Journalist Jennifer Senior says you're not alone in your insomnia", "question_index": 1, "text": "It's wonderful to have you. As preparation for this interview, I had trouble sleeping last night", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me. It's wonderful to be here."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5459788", "date": "2025-07-07", "guest": "Jennifer Senior", "title": "Can't sleep? Journalist Jennifer Senior says you're not alone in your insomnia", "question_index": 2, "text": ". At about 5 a.m., I couldn't get back to sleep. Occasionally, I'd fall back asleep and wake up and look at the clock. And each time that happened, only five minutes had elapsed. So I slept for a full five minutes, woke up, tossed and turned, and then slept five minutes more, et cetera, et cetera. I wanted to get out of bed desperately. I was, like, feeling hopeless and uncomfortable. But I knew I'd regret it during the day. So I just thought I'd tell you a little bit of backstory. I don't have insomnia, per se, but I have my nights when it's just, like, really hard to sleep. I've come to think of sleep as a talent, you know, that some people have and some people don't", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me. It's wonderful to be here."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5459788", "date": "2025-07-07", "guest": "Jennifer Senior", "title": "Can't sleep? Journalist Jennifer Senior says you're not alone in your insomnia", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me. It's wonderful to be here."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5459788", "date": "2025-07-07", "guest": "Jennifer Senior", "title": "Can't sleep? Journalist Jennifer Senior says you're not alone in your insomnia", "question_index": 4, "text": "You write, I like to tell people that the night before I stopped sleeping, I slept, not only that, I slept well. And you go on to say that you used to sleep through the night. Like, you'd go to bed and you'd just, like, wake up seven or eight hours later. That's amazing to me. I don't think I've ever slept through the whole night in my life. What was that first sleepless night like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know what? I would call it a gift. I mean, a talent suggests that, like, people have worked at it. And some people have. I want to thank you for telling me that. It is interesting, post-publicatio"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5459788", "date": "2025-07-07", "guest": "Jennifer Senior", "title": "Can't sleep? Journalist Jennifer Senior says you're not alone in your insomnia", "question_index": 5, "text": "Did it lead to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I had no idea. I mean, I greeted it with bafflement and kind of curiosity more than anything else. It wasn't alarm. It was just like, oh, that's weird. I thought sort of nothing of it until it"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5459788", "date": "2025-07-07", "guest": "Jennifer Senior", "title": "Can't sleep? Journalist Jennifer Senior says you're not alone in your insomnia", "question_index": 6, "text": "Did it lead to panic in bed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Or as Ron Burgundy says in \"Anchorman,\" you know, that escalated quickly. I mean, it just got bad."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5459788", "date": "2025-07-07", "guest": "Jennifer Senior", "title": "Can't sleep? Journalist Jennifer Senior says you're not alone in your insomnia", "question_index": 7, "text": "What did you think was wrong with you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Oh, God, a lot. And I remember one time I did exactly the wrong thing. You're never supposed to do this, for anybody who's suffering. I left a lot of runway. I went to bed at 8 o'clock even thou"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5459788", "date": "2025-07-07", "guest": "Jennifer Senior", "title": "Can't sleep? Journalist Jennifer Senior says you're not alone in your insomnia", "question_index": 8, "text": "The only thing I think you were thinking was like, I can't fall asleep. Oh, God, give me -", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't know. I mean, this is the problem. I was not perseverating or stressing or lying awake thinking about anything. People would say to me, what are you thinking about? What are you obsessing abo"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5459788", "date": "2025-07-07", "guest": "Jennifer Senior", "title": "Can't sleep? Journalist Jennifer Senior says you're not alone in your insomnia", "question_index": 9, "text": "like, I can't sleep.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't know. I mean, this is the problem. I was not perseverating or stressing or lying awake thinking about anything. People would say to me, what are you thinking about? What are you obsessing abo"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5459788", "date": "2025-07-07", "guest": "Jennifer Senior", "title": "Can't sleep? Journalist Jennifer Senior says you're not alone in your insomnia", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, so eventually, you do the countdown clock. Absolutely. OK, so that's, like, down the road. In the beginning, it was just all bewilderment and like, this must be biologically driven. What happened?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5459788", "date": "2025-07-07", "guest": "Jennifer Senior", "title": "Can't sleep? Journalist Jennifer Senior says you're not alone in your insomnia", "question_index": 11, "text": "So among the things you tried early on were acupuncture, Tylenol PM, melatonin, running four miles, breathing exercises, listening to a meditation tape. What did you learn about those approaches and how effective they were for you? And what did you learn about yourself after trying them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can't deal with this."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5459788", "date": "2025-07-07", "guest": "Jennifer Senior", "title": "Can't sleep? Journalist Jennifer Senior says you're not alone in your insomnia", "question_index": 12, "text": "What do you consider megawatt?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I learned I'd never done acupuncture before. And I learned that it was wonderful, just not particularly helpful for that. I did acupressure, too, and same deal. I guess I learned also that there was t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5459788", "date": "2025-07-07", "guest": "Jennifer Senior", "title": "Can't sleep? Journalist Jennifer Senior says you're not alone in your insomnia", "question_index": 13, "text": "'Cause if you're going to bed it's already dark and you're on a regular schedule, it's not going to help your circadium rhythms. Is that the theory?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, so it's often sold in 3 milligram and 5 milligram doses. You can even find 10. The people who really look at this stuff will tell you, first of all, if you take it late at night, that's when your "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5459788", "date": "2025-07-07", "guest": "Jennifer Senior", "title": "Can't sleep? Journalist Jennifer Senior says you're not alone in your insomnia", "question_index": 14, "text": "So you interviewed a lot of sleep researchers, and the first question you asked each of them was, what's the myth about sleep that you'd most like to debunk? So what was the most frequent answer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. The theory is that your body is already producing quite a bit of it, so just hammering it with more won't necessarily tell it, you know, to go to bed. It's already being told to go to bed, and it"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5459788", "date": "2025-07-07", "guest": "Jennifer Senior", "title": "Can't sleep? Journalist Jennifer Senior says you're not alone in your insomnia", "question_index": 15, "text": "You know, when I read that, I cheered because...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That you need eight hours."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5459788", "date": "2025-07-07", "guest": "Jennifer Senior", "title": "Can't sleep? Journalist Jennifer Senior says you're not alone in your insomnia", "question_index": 16, "text": "...For me, if I'm in bed, forget how much of the time in bed I'm actually sleeping, but if I'm in bed for seven hours, I feel like victory is mine. 'Cause more typically, it's like six and a half hours, and I feel so bad. I feel like you're harming yourself. You really have to find a way to get more sleep, but it never seems to work. And so that was really great to read that. But everybody told you that? That you really don't need 8 hours of sleep?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5459788", "date": "2025-07-07", "guest": "Jennifer Senior", "title": "Can't sleep? Journalist Jennifer Senior says you're not alone in your insomnia", "question_index": 17, "text": "And why is that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It wasn't that they said you really don't need it. They said that this was this myth out there that was just a kind of tyranny, and I'll explain why. And I spoke to so many people that I was really st"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5459788", "date": "2025-07-07", "guest": "Jennifer Senior", "title": "Can't sleep? Journalist Jennifer Senior says you're not alone in your insomnia", "question_index": 18, "text": "So people who are night owls usually get scolded by the rest of their family, like, you're staying up too late. It's not healthy. Is it not healthy? Like, as long as you could get a sufficient amount of sleep and sleep later in the day, is it not healthy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We don't function optimally as we get older in most ways, and there are cognitive decrements in ways that the brain, you know, changes, right? So I'm sure it's broadly a part of that. But the specific"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5459788", "date": "2025-07-07", "guest": "Jennifer Senior", "title": "Can't sleep? Journalist Jennifer Senior says you're not alone in your insomnia", "question_index": 19, "text": "Well, let me introduce you here. We have to take a break. My guest is Jennifer Senior. He new article on The Atlantic is titled \"Why Can't Americans Sleep: Insomnia Has Become A Public Health Emergency.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You have just put your finger on what I think people are coming around to believing. I spoke to a Circadian rhythms expert who said exactly this, that the studies that show, oh, night owls have worse "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5459788", "date": "2025-07-07", "guest": "Jennifer Senior", "title": "Can't sleep? Journalist Jennifer Senior says you're not alone in your insomnia", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jennifer Senior, a staff writer at The Atlantic. Her latest article, titled \"Why Can't Americans Sleep,\" is about her insomnia and the latest research into insomnia and therapies for it. So, you say you want to reframe the discussion around drugs that are used as sleeping aids. And I'd like to talk with you about some of the drugs most frequently recommended for sleep and the advantages and disadvantages of them. But let's start with why do you think the discussion around drugs needs to be reframed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You have just put your finger on what I think people are coming around to believing. I spoke to a Circadian rhythms expert who said exactly this, that the studies that show, oh, night owls have worse "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5459788", "date": "2025-07-07", "guest": "Jennifer Senior", "title": "Can't sleep? Journalist Jennifer Senior says you're not alone in your insomnia", "question_index": 21, "text": "You quote an editorial from 2024 in The American Journal of Psychiatry, and I want to read that, read the part that you quote. (Reading) Weak science, alarming FDA black box warnings and media reporting have fueled an anti-benzodiazepine movement. This has created an atmosphere of fear and stigma among patients, many of whom can benefit from such medications. Now, I'm not sure if that editorial was referring to the use of benzos for insomnia. But is that something you found other doctors agreed with, that there was a stigma about taking medication for sleep?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm so glad you asked me that. I really think it does. I've, since writing about this, also discovered what a lot of people take, you know, and that a lot of people rely on stuff. And why do I think i"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5459788", "date": "2025-07-07", "guest": "Jennifer Senior", "title": "Can't sleep? Journalist Jennifer Senior says you're not alone in your insomnia", "question_index": 22, "text": "What medications come to the category of benzos, benzodiazepines?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Interestingly, yes. And often, by the way, it is people who prescribe who talk about the stigma, you know, I should be clear. Although, I think clinicians would say this, too, who don't, that there sh"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5459788", "date": "2025-07-07", "guest": "Jennifer Senior", "title": "Can't sleep? Journalist Jennifer Senior says you're not alone in your insomnia", "question_index": 23, "text": "So when you talk about people taking those drugs, you're talking about a lot of people.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ah, great question. Valium, Ativan, Restoril, Klonopin, Xanax. I'm sure I'm missing some. Oh, actually, Ambien is considered one for the purpose of these studies. I think its mechanism of action is sl"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5459788", "date": "2025-07-07", "guest": "Jennifer Senior", "title": "Can't sleep? Journalist Jennifer Senior says you're not alone in your insomnia", "question_index": 24, "text": "Are you just counting people who take them for insomnia or those people who take it for other things, like just anxiety?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5459788", "date": "2025-07-07", "guest": "Jennifer Senior", "title": "Can't sleep? Journalist Jennifer Senior says you're not alone in your insomnia", "question_index": 25, "text": "Yeah. Well, let me reintroduce you again. My guest is Jennifer Senior, a staff writer at The Atlantic. Her latest article, called \"Why Americans Can't Sleep,\" is about her insomnia and the latest research into insomnia and ways of treating it. We'll talk more after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a lot. You know, so I don't know. Were people lying in this survey? I don't really know. But a lot of people take stuff. And, you know, 30% to 35% of Americans suffer from some symptoms of insomn"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5459788", "date": "2025-07-07", "guest": "Jennifer Senior", "title": "Can't sleep? Journalist Jennifer Senior says you're not alone in your insomnia", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Jennifer Senior. After years of sleeping through the night, she started to get insomnia about 25 years ago, when she was 29. Nothing big had changed in her life, so she had no explanation for why, suddenly, she couldn't sleep. The insomnia didn't go away. Her new article in the August issue of The Atlantic is titled \"Why Americans Can't Sleep\" (ph). It's already on the website. The article is about her insomnia and the latest research into insomnia and the treatments for it, several of which she's tried. Jennifer Senior is a staff writer at The Atlantic and the winner of two National Magazine Awards and a Pulitzer Prize. So we've been talking about some medical treatments - you know, medicines - that are prescribed for insomnia. Let's talk about psychological therapies that are tried for insomnia, and one of them is CBTI. So that stands for cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia. So would you describe what that therapy is? You've read about it. You've also tried it twice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a lot. You know, so I don't know. Were people lying in this survey? I don't really know. But a lot of people take stuff. And, you know, 30% to 35% of Americans suffer from some symptoms of insomn"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5459788", "date": "2025-07-07", "guest": "Jennifer Senior", "title": "Can't sleep? Journalist Jennifer Senior says you're not alone in your insomnia", "question_index": 27, "text": "Yeah, I can see if it typically takes you a while to fall asleep and you're only allowing yourself five hours, you won't necessarily get the five hours' sleep 'cause it's going to maybe take you an hour to fall asleep, even if you're tired. Is that the problem?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I have. OK, so it is a very effective therapy. It's just very hard to do. But here is what it is in a nutshell. You have to change your thinking about not sleeping. That's the cognitive part, rig"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5459788", "date": "2025-07-07", "guest": "Jennifer Senior", "title": "Can't sleep? Journalist Jennifer Senior says you're not alone in your insomnia", "question_index": 28, "text": "I'm going to paraphrase you here. You say that throughout the night, people with insomnia - the arousal centers of the brain keep chattering or clattering away, as does the prefrontal cortex, which is in charge of planning and decision-making. So in regular sleepers, those regions of the brain go offline. They quiet down. So the parts of the brain that should be resting aren't resting if you have insomnia. Can you go into that in some more detail?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's the problem. There's also the soundtrack of terror in your head. Oh, no. Now I've only got four hours. Now I've only got three. There's another paradoxical kind of soundtrack. I mean, this is t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5459788", "date": "2025-07-07", "guest": "Jennifer Senior", "title": "Can't sleep? Journalist Jennifer Senior says you're not alone in your insomnia", "question_index": 29, "text": "And although parts of your brain go offline when you're sleeping, parts of the brain are doing really important stuff. What are the parts of the brain doing when you're sleeping?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So particularly in depressed insomniacs, in depressed people - and insomnia is a really good recipe for depression - your brain, when you are in REM sleep, it's much more intense. And so that part of "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5459788", "date": "2025-07-07", "guest": "Jennifer Senior", "title": "Can't sleep? Journalist Jennifer Senior says you're not alone in your insomnia", "question_index": 30, "text": "I want to ask you about antidepressants because that's something that you tried in the hopes that it would help you sleep, and it did. I don't know how long you stayed on the antidepressant you were taking. But are antidepressants often prescribed for insomnia?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The most important thing, which I've only recently discovered, is rinsing out toxins, which is super fascinating. It's called the glymphatic system. This is something that they just found, and it's th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5459788", "date": "2025-07-07", "guest": "Jennifer Senior", "title": "Can't sleep? Journalist Jennifer Senior says you're not alone in your insomnia", "question_index": 31, "text": "Is it sometimes hard to tell whether the depression was caused by the insomnia or the insomnia was caused by the depression?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And sometimes they help, and sometimes they don't. If depression is at the root, then absolutely they can. Although, it's important to note - and this is absolutely true for me - many antidepress"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5459788", "date": "2025-07-07", "guest": "Jennifer Senior", "title": "Can't sleep? Journalist Jennifer Senior says you're not alone in your insomnia", "question_index": 32, "text": "Let me reintroduce you because I want to talk about long COVID after the break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jennifer Senior. Her new article in The Atlantic is titled \"Why Can't Americans Sleep? Insomnia Has Become A Public-Health Emergency.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know? But it made me depressed. I mean, it made me depressed fairly quickly 'cause you can't live for very long if you are extremely sleep-deprived and not be really miserable. So I was responsi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5459788", "date": "2025-07-07", "guest": "Jennifer Senior", "title": "Can't sleep? Journalist Jennifer Senior says you're not alone in your insomnia", "question_index": 33, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jennifer Senior, a staff writer at The Atlantic. Her latest article, titled \"Why Can't Americans Sleep?\" is about her insomnia, the latest research into insomnia and therapies for it. So I want to move away from insomnia to talk about long COVID, which you have. Although, I suspect there's probably some interconnection there. But in 2022, and this was long after you developed insomnia, you got COVID, and a very mild case. You were barely symptomatic. You basically still went about your day. But after that, you got long COVID. And you wrote an article about it in The Atlantic, and the article was titled \"What Not To Ask Me About My Long COVID.\" And you write, asking - are you doing any better? - doesn't help. You have to think of it as a chronic illness. But I do want to ask you because I think, with every year, we know a little bit more about long COVID - although so much of it is still a mystery because COVID itself is so new - but have you improved over time? Has it changed for better or worse over time? And my follow-up will be, like, have you learned more about it? Do you feel like you know more about what it is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know? But it made me depressed. I mean, it made me depressed fairly quickly 'cause you can't live for very long if you are extremely sleep-deprived and not be really miserable. So I was responsi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5459788", "date": "2025-07-07", "guest": "Jennifer Senior", "title": "Can't sleep? Journalist Jennifer Senior says you're not alone in your insomnia", "question_index": 34, "text": "That sounds so life-changing. Has it changed your sense of identity, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for asking. I don't consider that a ridiculous question now, particularly because it's been - my three-year anniversary was, like, June 28. And the symptoms really started, like, on Day 6 wh"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5459788", "date": "2025-07-07", "guest": "Jennifer Senior", "title": "Can't sleep? Journalist Jennifer Senior says you're not alone in your insomnia", "question_index": 35, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Totally. And it is life-changing. I'm taking an 18-month leave from The Atlantic."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5459788", "date": "2025-07-07", "guest": "Jennifer Senior", "title": "Can't sleep? Journalist Jennifer Senior says you're not alone in your insomnia", "question_index": 36, "text": "Does the long COVID and the insomnia have any interconnection?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I might write a book about - yeah, I - this story was the last thing I'm doing for a while. I might write a book about living in a broken body, but I won't take an advance for it 'cause that would be "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5459788", "date": "2025-07-07", "guest": "Jennifer Senior", "title": "Can't sleep? Journalist Jennifer Senior says you're not alone in your insomnia", "question_index": 37, "text": "So one more question about insomnia - are you afraid to go to - do you, like, dread going to bed at night?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, very possibly - there's a confound here. Autoimmune diseases run in my family. My mother has one. She has also an immunodeficiency. The critical infantrymen in her immune system are not there, an"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5459788", "date": "2025-07-07", "guest": "Jennifer Senior", "title": "Can't sleep? Journalist Jennifer Senior says you're not alone in your insomnia", "question_index": 38, "text": "All right, well, listen, I wish you well with your sleep and your health.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no. No, and I haven't for a long time. No, no, no. I've learned enough of the cognitive kind of restructuring stuff to say to myself, particularly since I've changed jobs. I'm no longer being fed "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5459788", "date": "2025-07-07", "guest": "Jennifer Senior", "title": "Can't sleep? Journalist Jennifer Senior says you're not alone in your insomnia", "question_index": 39, "text": "And thank you so much for coming back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5463516", "date": "2025-07-10", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How SCOTUS ruled to increase executive power and challenge constitutional order", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The U.S. Supreme Court term that concluded at the end of June was remarkable in how it expanded presidential power and limited the power of the lower courts. And this week, after the term had ended, the Supreme Court ruled that the Trump administration can continue to fire tens of thousands of federal workers in government agencies, even though the question of whether he has the right to do so without the approval of Congress is still continuing to make its way through the legal system. An unprecedented number of the court's decisions were made on the emergency docket, which allows the cases to be heard within weeks instead of taking a year, but there is little or no transparency and no oral arguments in these rulings. Here to explain the short- and long-term implications of these decisions, as well as discussing the conflicts of opinion among the justices, including how controversial Ketanji Brown Jackson's dissents have become within the court, is Adam Liptak. He's covered the Supreme Court for The New York Times since 2008. I was disappointed to read that the end of this Supreme Court term also marked the end of his time covering this beat. He'll now be covering the law more broadly for the Times, while continuing to write \"Sidebar,\" his column on legal affairs. We recorded our interview yesterday morning. Adam Liptak, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Let's start with this week's decision relating to the president's ability to downsize the government through DOGE and remove tens of thousands of people from government positions. A lower court had ruled that this order should be paused until the case finished making its way through the courts. Would you describe the Supreme Court decision?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5463516", "date": "2025-07-10", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How SCOTUS ruled to increase executive power and challenge constitutional order", "question_index": 1, "text": "So a question a lot of people have about the Supreme Court ruling allowing Trump to go ahead and, you know, fire tens of thousands of people, is that, like, say, in the long run, the court rules against Trump and says that actually, you're not allowed to fire all of these people, then what? Then agencies have to start finding tens of thousands of people who have expertise in the subject that they have to be working on and rebuild the agencies and catch up for all lost time. I mean, is that even possible?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So this is one of what is now a whole pile up of orders on emergency applications in which the Supreme Court green lights Trump programs that are quite aggressive. In his few months in office, he has "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5463516", "date": "2025-07-10", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How SCOTUS ruled to increase executive power and challenge constitutional order", "question_index": 2, "text": "So this decision follows an earlier ruling from this term, a very consequential one that limited the power of lower court judges. The case was about whether children born in the U.S. to parents who are in the U.S. illegally still have the right to citizenship in the U.S. Can you describe this ruling by the Supreme Court that was also on the emergency docket?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's an excellent point. These decisions are said to be provisional, tentative, but they really are, for the most part, irreversible. So these provisional rulings in favor of Trump actually give him"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5463516", "date": "2025-07-10", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How SCOTUS ruled to increase executive power and challenge constitutional order", "question_index": 3, "text": "That was a very clever move on the part of the Trump administration.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, as you say, this case was nominally about birthright citizenship, about the constitutional provision that almost all legal scholars agree says that if you're born in the United States, you're a "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5463516", "date": "2025-07-10", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How SCOTUS ruled to increase executive power and challenge constitutional order", "question_index": 4, "text": "So does this ruling, saying that lower court judges can't apply their decisions to people other than the people who filed the suit, does that overturn a lot of precedent?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I got to say that at the Supreme Court, the Trump Justice Department, the solicitor general who argues before the court, has been pretty strategically brilliant. You can't say that about their lower c"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5463516", "date": "2025-07-10", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How SCOTUS ruled to increase executive power and challenge constitutional order", "question_index": 5, "text": "Why do you think the Trump administration chose birthright citizenship as the case to actually argue whether lower court judges have the power to apply their decisions nationally?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This has been an open question, and it's true that universal injunctions have been controversial. The Biden administration didn't like them, the Trump administration didn't like them, members of the c"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5463516", "date": "2025-07-10", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How SCOTUS ruled to increase executive power and challenge constitutional order", "question_index": 6, "text": "One of the things I find really interesting about this decision is that the Supreme Court is limiting the power of the judiciary, at least of the lower courts, at a time when the Supreme Court is also expanding presidential power.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My suspicion is that they lost. They had a client, the president, who wanted them to go to the Supreme Court. They didn't want to go up on an issue that they thought they were certain to lose, which i"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5463516", "date": "2025-07-10", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How SCOTUS ruled to increase executive power and challenge constitutional order", "question_index": 7, "text": "And of course, three of the conservatives who were in the majority on the Supreme Court were appointed by President Trump. So you write that this decision about the lower courts eliminated the use of the main tool that people trying to block Trump's agenda have used. So how does this decision open the door to Trump to continue to expand executive power?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Both of those things are right. And the third thing that's correct is, the Supreme Court is also insisting that it has the power. So the court, and Justice Brett Kavanaugh in particular, in a concurre"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5463516", "date": "2025-07-10", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How SCOTUS ruled to increase executive power and challenge constitutional order", "question_index": 8, "text": "So it opens the door to a lot of uncertainty.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so he issues an executive order. Somebody sues. That person, that advocacy group, that state wins, but the policy still remains in place as to everybody else. So you can't get a definitive answe"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5463516", "date": "2025-07-10", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How SCOTUS ruled to increase executive power and challenge constitutional order", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Adam Liptak. He's covered the Supreme Court for The New York Times for nearly 18 years. We'll talk more about the latest consequential Supreme Court rulings after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Now, even in Justice Amy Coney Barrett's majority opinion, she says there may be some alternate routes. One of them, and we're soon going to find out whether this works, is instead of universal "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5463516", "date": "2025-07-10", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How SCOTUS ruled to increase executive power and challenge constitutional order", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview about the latest consequential Supreme Court rulings with Adam Liptak, who covered the Supreme Court for nearly 18 years and just left the beat. We recorded our interview yesterday morning. The two decisions we've discussed, the birthright decision, which limited certain abilities of the lower courts, and the decision about firing tens of thousands of people at government agencies, those were both done on the emergency docket, which is sometimes called the shadow docket because there's no transparency. So let's talk about the emergency docket. Would you explain what that is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Now, even in Justice Amy Coney Barrett's majority opinion, she says there may be some alternate routes. One of them, and we're soon going to find out whether this works, is instead of universal "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5463516", "date": "2025-07-10", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How SCOTUS ruled to increase executive power and challenge constitutional order", "question_index": 11, "text": "So what alternative, or alternatives, did the Supreme Court have after lawsuits were filed objecting to the president's executive orders?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Maybe the best way to think about it is when we think of a usual Supreme Court case, it is very deliberate and it takes a long time, and it gives the justices a chance to do their best work. So "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5463516", "date": "2025-07-10", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How SCOTUS ruled to increase executive power and challenge constitutional order", "question_index": 12, "text": "But the Supreme Court did away with the ability of the lower court's ruling to stand.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One alternative is what it does on the merits docket, which is the default, is that the lower court ruling stands. And when it reaches the Supreme Court eventually in the usual way, the Supreme Court "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5463516", "date": "2025-07-10", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How SCOTUS ruled to increase executive power and challenge constitutional order", "question_index": 13, "text": "It's kind of catch-22.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5463516", "date": "2025-07-10", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How SCOTUS ruled to increase executive power and challenge constitutional order", "question_index": 14, "text": "Some leaders of the conservative legal movement, including some leaders of the Federalist Society, which for several Republican administrations have, like, provided lists of preferred conservative judges for appointment to the Supreme Court - so several of those leaders of the conservative movement have been critical of Trump and his legal moves. On what grounds?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It really puts the thumb on the scale in favor of the president. This court is very pro-presidential power. We saw that last term at the end of the term on July 1 last year, when in the process of giv"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5463516", "date": "2025-07-10", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How SCOTUS ruled to increase executive power and challenge constitutional order", "question_index": 15, "text": "The president actually verbally attacked the Federalist Society. What did he say about them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, lawless, unconstitutional action, they might say. You know, you can't understate this. The Trump administration's vision of executive power is kind of total. It leaves no room for the other "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5463516", "date": "2025-07-10", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How SCOTUS ruled to increase executive power and challenge constitutional order", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Adam Liptak, who just left his beat covering the Supreme Court for The New York Times. But he'll continue to write about legal matters in the Times and continue his legal column, Sidebar. We'll talk more about the Supreme Court's latest decisions after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He said, I don't know why I listened to them on judicial appointments. He called Leonard Leo, a key figure in the Federalist Society, a sleazebag, which is just extraordinary for someone who really he"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5463516", "date": "2025-07-10", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How SCOTUS ruled to increase executive power and challenge constitutional order", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Adam Liptak about the most important and controversial decisions the Supreme Court made in the term that concluded at the end of June. Liptak covered the Supreme Court for nearly 18 years but left that beat at the end of the term at the end of June. He'll now be covering legal matters more broadly while continuing his legal column, Sidebar. The overwhelming majority of Republicans in Congress have not objected to ceding some of their power to the president. So if Congress isn't objecting to the president claiming powers that Congress should have to sign off on, and if the Supreme Court is allowing it and the lower courts can't stand in the way of it, where does that leave us in terms of the expansion of executive power?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He said, I don't know why I listened to them on judicial appointments. He called Leonard Leo, a key figure in the Federalist Society, a sleazebag, which is just extraordinary for someone who really he"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5463516", "date": "2025-07-10", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How SCOTUS ruled to increase executive power and challenge constitutional order", "question_index": 18, "text": "You wrote an article about how Ketanji Brown Jackson, who is the newest and youngest member of the Supreme Court, she appears to be sounding the alarm about how some of the court's decisions pose a threat to democracy. And she wrote an unusually large number of concurring and dissenting opinions, which is unusual for such a new member of the court. What are some of the decisions she's considered to pose the greatest threats to democracy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We're looking at a transformed nation in which the president has assumed immeasurable power. As you say, Terry, Congress is not standing in the way. From the looks of it so far, after some initial sen"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5463516", "date": "2025-07-10", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How SCOTUS ruled to increase executive power and challenge constitutional order", "question_index": 19, "text": "So in the case of the birthright citizenship decision in which the justices, the majority, ruled that the lower court's stays and injunctions can't apply nationally, the dissent that Jackson wrote included these sentences. As you mentioned, she called it an existential threat to democracy. And she wrote that the majority imperiled the rule of law, creating, quote, a zone of lawlessness within which the executive has the prerogative to take or leave the law as it wishes. And then Amy Coney Barrett in response wrote - and Barrett wrote the majority opinion in this case. So she wrote about Jackson, we will not dwell on Justice Jackson's argument, which is at odds with more than two centuries worth of precedent, not to mention the Constitution itself. And then in referring to the principal dissent written by Justice Sotomayor, Barrett wrote, the principal dissent focuses on conventional legal terrain. Justice Jackson, however, chooses a startling line of attack that is tethered neither to these sources nor, frankly, to any doctrine whatsoever. What's your understanding of what Barrett wrote?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she certainly thought that about the decision we started out by talking about, about universal injunctions. She said that was an existential threat to democracy. And in a lot of these shadow doc"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5463516", "date": "2025-07-10", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How SCOTUS ruled to increase executive power and challenge constitutional order", "question_index": 20, "text": "But Justice Jackson is speaking in terms that the public can understand.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's two levels to look at it. One is that Justice Barrett, who is ordinarily very constrained, took an uncharacteristic tack here, and in truly dismissive tones, went after the next junior justice"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5463516", "date": "2025-07-10", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How SCOTUS ruled to increase executive power and challenge constitutional order", "question_index": 21, "text": "There have been so many threats against judges at every level since Trump became president, and that certainly has accelerated in his second term. And President Trump threatened to impeach Judge James Boasberg, who is handling the Venezuelan migrant case. Chief Justice Roberts even made a statement that impeachment isn't how you deal with a judge who makes a decision you disagree with. This is the John Roberts court. Do you think that he thinks his court has become extreme? Do you think he's concerned either about the direction that the court is taking or about the climate that judges are operating in now, the climate of constant threats, you know, from people who don't like their decisions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So, I mean, the dynamic here is interesting because you have a principal dissent by the senior liberal, Justice Sonia Sotomayor, which Justice Kagan joins, Justice Jackson joins. And then Justic"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5463516", "date": "2025-07-10", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How SCOTUS ruled to increase executive power and challenge constitutional order", "question_index": 22, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So there's two different questions there."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5463516", "date": "2025-07-10", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How SCOTUS ruled to increase executive power and challenge constitutional order", "question_index": 23, "text": "You mentioned that Chief Justice Roberts is concerned about starting a constitutional crisis. If the court isn't careful about its decisions, that Trump might just, like, go ahead and take power without the approval of the court - with the disapproval of the court. So, if concerns about a constitutional crisis is causing the Supreme Court or at least some members of the court to be timid about putting limits on the president, that sounds like a kind of lose-lose. Like, you don't want a constitutional crisis, but you don't want to create a fear in justices about standing up to the president if he's overstepped.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Is he unsatisfied with the direction of his own court? I don't think so. I think he's voting as he sees fit. That said, I think the chief justice is very concerned about the prestige, authority and le"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5463516", "date": "2025-07-10", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How SCOTUS ruled to increase executive power and challenge constitutional order", "question_index": 24, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you. My guest is Adam Liptak. He's covered the Supreme Court for The New York Times for nearly 18 years, but he left the beat at the end of June. We'll talk more about the Supreme Court after we take a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. They're in a hell of a box. It's hard, and I think they're going to pick their shots and rule against major Trump initiatives if they satisfy two criteria. One - the public is overwhelmingly wit"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5463516", "date": "2025-07-10", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How SCOTUS ruled to increase executive power and challenge constitutional order", "question_index": 25, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview about the latest consequential Supreme Court rulings with Adam Liptak, who covered the Supreme Court for nearly 18 years for The New York Times and just left that beat, although he'll continue to write about legal matters for The Times. We recorded our interview yesterday morning. So it seems like this past term had several wins for the religious right and for people who object to LGBTQ rights. There was a decision related to transgender youth - preventing them from getting access to some forms of transition care. It upheld a Tennessee law that will also now apply to about 20 other states with similar laws. The Supreme Court granted the right for people whose religion is anti-LGBTQ. They can remove their children from classes that are discussing LGBTQ issues or LGBTQ-themed books. So in terms of the curriculum issue...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. They're in a hell of a box. It's hard, and I think they're going to pick their shots and rule against major Trump initiatives if they satisfy two criteria. One - the public is overwhelmingly wit"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5463516", "date": "2025-07-10", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How SCOTUS ruled to increase executive power and challenge constitutional order", "question_index": 26, "text": "...This gives the religious parents what they claim as their rights in a way, by denying the rights of LGBTQ students and LGBTQ parents of students 'cause it's basically saying, if your parents are gay or trans, we can't talk about who they are. We can't recognize them as people who can even be discussed in this class.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5463516", "date": "2025-07-10", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How SCOTUS ruled to increase executive power and challenge constitutional order", "question_index": 27, "text": "Do you think there's a threat to same-sex marriage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's certainly one way to look at it. Another way to look at it is this overrides - I mean, the court often talks about, we're going to send something back to the states. We're going to let local of"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5463516", "date": "2025-07-10", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How SCOTUS ruled to increase executive power and challenge constitutional order", "question_index": 28, "text": "By the way, something I neglected to ask you, you describe the current court as being basically the Kavanaugh-Roberts-Barrett court because they're the only justices on the conservative side that sometimes side with the liberals.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, a year or two ago, I would have said that would be laughable. Now I think I'd say I don't think it's likely. I think there may be only two people on the court itching to do away with the con"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5463516", "date": "2025-07-10", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How SCOTUS ruled to increase executive power and challenge constitutional order", "question_index": 29, "text": "Well, let me introduce you one more time. My guest is Adam Liptak, and he's covered the Supreme Court for The New York Times for nearly 18 years. But at the conclusion of the term that ended in June, he left the beat to write more generally about legal issues. We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I make - I have a tiny footnote that Justice Gorsuch will occasionally go in that direction. But you're right. I mean, people hate to hear this because you can find exceptions and complexities, "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5463516", "date": "2025-07-10", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How SCOTUS ruled to increase executive power and challenge constitutional order", "question_index": 30, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview about the Supreme Court with Adam Liptak, who covered the court for nearly 18 years and just left the beat. We recorded our interview yesterday morning. Before you covered the Supreme Court for The Times, you actually worked in The Times' legal department being an attorney for The Times, which I imagine dealt with a lot of First Amendment issues and other issues as well. So if you could put that hat on for a moment and, you know, as somebody who represented a media organization as a lawyer, what is your - I don't know - what is your take on what President Trump is doing now - suing various, you know, networks and other media outlets?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I make - I have a tiny footnote that Justice Gorsuch will occasionally go in that direction. But you're right. I mean, people hate to hear this because you can find exceptions and complexities, "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5463516", "date": "2025-07-10", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How SCOTUS ruled to increase executive power and challenge constitutional order", "question_index": 31, "text": "You say they're bending the knee for no good reason. I think the reason might be money.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I think this is an area where the law hasn't changed. American law is very protective of the press, and the press will win these suits if they fight. But astoundingly, ABC settles a very weak libel"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5463516", "date": "2025-07-10", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How SCOTUS ruled to increase executive power and challenge constitutional order", "question_index": 32, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Well, bending the knee for no good reason consistent with, you know, journalism..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5463516", "date": "2025-07-10", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How SCOTUS ruled to increase executive power and challenge constitutional order", "question_index": 33, "text": "So what's the financial threat?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And the First Amendment."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5463516", "date": "2025-07-10", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How SCOTUS ruled to increase executive power and challenge constitutional order", "question_index": 34, "text": "So let's look at President Trump's lawsuit against CBS. And CBS is settling that for $16 million, settling out of court. Can you explain what that lawsuit is about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I guess it's possible that the president sues in some jurisdiction, you know, cherry-picks a judge, gets before a jury inclined to be skeptical of the mainstream press, wins a judgment, is uphel"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5463516", "date": "2025-07-10", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How SCOTUS ruled to increase executive power and challenge constitutional order", "question_index": 35, "text": "So Adam, I was really sorry to read that you were leaving the Supreme Court beat, which you did for so many years. And you've been on our show so many times during that period. And I always like talking with you, which we can continue to do as you switch to more general legal issues. But I always enjoyed reading you because you're just so clear and have such a strong background in not only the Supreme Court, but legal issues in general. Why did you decide to leave the beat?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And some other things. But our company is controlled by the Sulzberger family who are committed to journalism first and foremost."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5463516", "date": "2025-07-10", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How SCOTUS ruled to increase executive power and challenge constitutional order", "question_index": 36, "text": "Once you got the itch to leave the Supreme Court beat, how long did it take you to decide you were really going to do it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The beat wears you down, particularly in this era of emergency applications. It's grueling deadline work, day and night. And I think it's time for someone with more energy to handle that stuff, which "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5463516", "date": "2025-07-10", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How SCOTUS ruled to increase executive power and challenge constitutional order", "question_index": 37, "text": "So now that you're no longer going to be covering the Supreme Court, is one of your resolutions to get more sleep?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The real question is, how long did it take for me to persuade my superiors that I should be allowed to do it. I'll also say this. The court has also become different. You know, for the first - my firs"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5463516", "date": "2025-07-10", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How SCOTUS ruled to increase executive power and challenge constitutional order", "question_index": 38, "text": "Good luck", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I'm going to try, Terry."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5463516", "date": "2025-07-10", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How SCOTUS ruled to increase executive power and challenge constitutional order", "question_index": 39, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I'm going to try, Terry."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5463516", "date": "2025-07-10", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How SCOTUS ruled to increase executive power and challenge constitutional order", "question_index": 40, "text": "Adam Liptak, it's been a pleasure. I hope you enjoy - if that's the right word - covering your new beat writing more generally about legal issues for The New York Times. And thank you for all your appearances on FRESH AIR while you've been covering the Supreme Court. I look forward to continue to talk with you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5463516", "date": "2025-07-10", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How SCOTUS ruled to increase executive power and challenge constitutional order", "question_index": 41, "text": "Adam Liptak was The New York Times Supreme Court reporter from 2008 until the end of June, when he left the beat to cover legal issues more broadly for The Times. We recorded our interview yesterday morning. This morning, a U.S. district court federal judge in New Hampshire blocked the Trump administration from enforcing its executive order ending birthright citizenship. The judge allowed the case to proceed as a class action. As Liptak explained, a recent Supreme Court decision limiting nationwide injunctions allowed for class action suits as the way to challenge executive orders. If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, like this week's interviews with journalist Jennifer Senior about the latest research and treatments for insomnia, which she has, and with R&B performer, songwriter and producer Raphael Saadiq, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. And to find out what's happening behind the scenes of our show and get our producers' recommendations for what to watch, read and listen to, subscribe to our free newsletter at whyy.org/freshair.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. It's been a treat to be with you today and all those other times."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5463516", "date": "2025-07-10", "guest": "Adam Liptak", "title": "How SCOTUS ruled to increase executive power and challenge constitutional order", "question_index": 42, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Briger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Susan Nyakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Hope Wilson is our consulting visual producer. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. It's been a treat to be with you today and all those other times."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest Leslie Uggams was first considered remarkable for starting her performing career when she was 6. Now she's considered remarkable as one of the actors still active at the age of 82. She's in an episode of the new season of HBO's \"The Gilded Age.\" She's played Blind Al in the \"Deadpool\" films. In the Oscar-winning 2023 film \"American Fiction,\" she played the mother whose dementia progresses through the film. In the series \"Empire,\" she was the mother of the main character, Lucious Lyon. Going back to the beginning, when she was 6, she was featured in a 1950 episode of \"Beulah,\" the ABC series starring Ethel Waters as a wise maid in the home of a white family. Uggams played Beulah's niece. Soon after, Uggams started singing at the Apollo, where she met luminaries like Louis Armstrong and Ella Fitzgerald. She became a regular on the CBS music variety show \"Sing Along With Mitch.\" In 1967, she starred in the Broadway civil rights musical \"Hallelujah, Baby!\" She won a Tony, and the show won one for best musical. Another achievement - she was the first Black woman and the second Black person after Nat Cole to host her own TV variety show. Leslie Uggams, welcome to FRESH AIR. It's a pleasure to have you on the show.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 1, "text": "So what is it like for you now being remarkable for performing professionally at such a young age, when you were 6, and now being remarkable because you're in so many things at the age of 82?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. Good to be here."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 2, "text": "That's a good attitude. I have to say, in \"Deadpool,\" it was so surprising to hear you use expletives and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, that's how I've always been. And then I realize when I run into so many different people and they - you know, they go, oh, you're such an icon, and I go, oh, I guess I am. I've been doing this"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 3, "text": "...Synonyms for cocaine. How did they think of you for that role? What made them think Leslie Uggams will be perfect for this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the funniest thing about it is that I happened to be in Florida doing \"Mame,\" and my agent called me and said, I have an audition for you for a movie. So I got the script, and I read it, and I d"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 5, "text": "Oh, you didn't know she was blind?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All I knew is that she kept falling a lot."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 6, "text": "Did it feel good to use a lot of expletives?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Had no idea. I mean, when you do these kind of superhero kind of things, everything's encrypted because it's all so hush-hush that you don't know until the last minute yourself what the heck is going "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 7, "text": "I haven't heard that expression in a long time - toilet mouth.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, it's a character. It's not me. I'm not a toilet mouth kind of person."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 8, "text": "So you're about to be in \"The Gilded Age,\" in Episode 7.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know? And she's kind of ticked off about the whole thing. But I think what really got me the part is my interview with the director, the first director, Tim Miller, who - we sat down, and we tal"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 9, "text": "And this is the HBO series about the culture clash between people with old money and people with new money and where prosperous Black people fit in or don't fit in into that culture. Can you tell us something about your character, or is that hush-hush?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 10, "text": "OK. Do you know what was happening in your family during the period \"The Gilded Age\" is set, which is the late 1800s?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 11, "text": "So you must have really related when you played Kizzy in \"Roots\" because when she is sold to a different plantation owner, played by Chuck Connors, he comes into her cabin frequently and rapes her, and her son is his son. So did you already know about your family history when you played that role?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I know from my grandmother on - you know, on my mother's side, her mother, there were 10 children. They were all fathered by the plantation owner. The plantation owner built a house on his prope"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 12, "text": "They being your family?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, it's very interesting. They didn't talk about a lot. They talked about the stuff that they had..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 13, "text": "She was a white girl who you thought of - you know, Kizzy thought of as her best friend.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The family, yeah. But they never talked about those situations of being raped or anything like that because they were educated on the plantation. They - you know, they had teachers and stuff to teach "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 14, "text": "But she was from the slaveholder's family and wanted - when she returns to the plantation, she wants Kizzy to be her personal slave and how wonderful it'll be for...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 15, "text": "...You know, for Kizzy to be her - yeah, to be her personal slave and move away from her family to this other plantation. Yeah. So you've said that if you knew about that scene when you accepted the role, you might not have taken it because playing that scene where you're taken away by the new plantation owner - that it was - yeah, that it was so horrible. Talk about why it had such an impact on you that you wouldn't have even taken the role.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, like a pet."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 16, "text": "Sandy Duncan played the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, because - well, first of all, thank God I knew Sandy Duncan; we had been friends before, because otherwise, I never would have spoken to her again."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 17, "text": "...White girl who...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Missy."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 18, "text": "...Wanted to have you as her personal slave.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 19, "text": "Yeah, 'cause you had to be hysterical...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes. And I remember when we finished the scene, there was such a hush. I was still hysterical from it and everything. And..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 20, "text": "...When they were taking your character away. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 21, "text": "Yeah, she's watching you and doesn't intervene at all.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And what happened was nobody wanted to talk to Sandy because they were just horrified, and they kind of looked at her with different eyes. And she'll tell you she's sorry that she ever did that part b"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 22, "text": "OK. Let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Leslie Uggams, and she'll soon be in episode 7 of HBO's \"The Gilded Age.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, she's looking out the window and just watching the whole thing. It was tough. Thank God I didn't have to shoot anymore for the rest of the day, 'cause I wouldn't have been able to. I came home, "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Leslie Uggams. She's famous for her singing career, for being the first Black performer on the series \"Sing Along With Mitch,\" starring in the 1967 civil rights Broadway musical \"Hallelujah, Baby,\" being the first Black woman to host a TV variety show, co-starring in \"Roots\" as Kunta Kinte's daughter, Kizzy. She co-starred in \"Empire,\" playing the mother of Lucious. She played the mother in \"American Fiction,\" Blind Al in \"Deadpool\" movies, and will soon be in episode 7 of HBO's \"The Gilded Age.\" So you had a remarkable childhood. Let's start with your aunt, Eloise Uggams. She was a dancer at the Cotton Club, which was a...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, she's looking out the window and just watching the whole thing. It was tough. Thank God I didn't have to shoot anymore for the rest of the day, 'cause I wouldn't have been able to. I came home, "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 24, "text": "Oh, your mother was a dancer at...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no, no. My mother was a dancer at the Cotton Club."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 25, "text": "...The Cotton Club?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 26, "text": "Ah. Well, yes. And only Lena Horne was Lena Horne.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 27, "text": "So, like, having a career as a performer was a thing that was within reach because you'd seen it in your own family.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And my aunt Eloise, though, was a wonderful, beautiful singer on Broadway. She did shows like \"St. Louis Woman\" with Pearl Bailey, and she was in \"Porgy And Bess.\" And she traveled all over the w"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 28, "text": "Which you did. You went to Juilliard.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Kind of. Sort of. My father was not thrilled about show business, even though his sister, you know, had been in Broadway shows. He just thought, you know, they're kind of loose women. My aunt never ma"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 29, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I went to Juilliard for a short period of time because then I got famous because of \"Sing Along With Mitch.\""}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 30, "text": "OK. So before we get to performing on television, let's get to the Apollo Theater.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then the schedule got too crazy for me to do it full-time."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 31, "text": "So you started singing there when you were about...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 32, "text": "Nine years old. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nine years old. I was 9."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 33, "text": "OK. So was this a talent competition or were you just, like, a featured performer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 34, "text": "What a gift.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. What happened was the Schiffmans, who ran the Apollo Theater, had a radio show. And it was a contest, and they would have a celebrity introduce a young talent. And there was a woman named Thelma C"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 35, "text": "What did you pick up from Armstrong about singing? He had such a perfect sense of rhythm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 36, "text": "But, you know, I mentioned Armstrong's sense of rhythm. His sense of rhythm was always surprising. Like, he would hold notes you wouldn't expect and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I loved him. I watched every single performance. I had a little nook on the stage of the Apollo where I could watch everything. And I would watch him every single show. First of all, he was so lov"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 37, "text": "So behind the beat. It was like the most relaxed rhythm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But musicians, you know, they have that."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 38, "text": "And it influenced everybody.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 39, "text": "You were such a child.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he had that. And then the next person I worked with was Ella Fitzgerald. And, boy, was that another gift, you know? And I watched her shows every single show. And she'd just walk out there and o"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 40, "text": "What was in your repertoire at the time when you were 9?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Good Humor truck would come, and she'd buy me ice cream because she thought I was too skinny. She was always trying to fatten me up."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 41, "text": "Who did you do impressions of?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 42, "text": "Oh, I remember that. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ted Williams. Oh, God. Johnnie Ray. I forgot who was the third one. But Johnnie Ray had a big hit, \"Crying In The Chapel.\""}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 43, "text": "I'm sure you were.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So I did that. And it was about 20-minute show. And I was adorable. But I could sing."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 44, "text": "In 2012, you released an album called \"Uptown Downtown.\" And it was songs that you did in a one-woman show. And I think it was probably performed in cabarets.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So I did that. And it was about 20-minute show. And I was adorable. But I could sing."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 45, "text": "Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was done at some theaters, regional theaters."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 46, "text": "So I want to play a song from that. And this is \"Them There Eyes.\" But these are songs that have personal meaning to you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In fact, I started it at the Pasadena Playhouse."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 47, "text": "So tell us about the meaning of this song before we hear it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 48, "text": "Well, let's hear \"Them There Eyes,\" recorded by my guest, Leslie Uggams, in 2012.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, basically, the Schiffmans kind of picked the material. And they loved the song \"Them There Eyes,\" and I took to it. And it was in that repertoire that I did the first time I was at the Apollo."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 49, "text": "That was Leslie Uggams recorded in 2012 from her album \"Uptown Downtown.\" If you're just joining us, my guest is singer and actor Leslie Uggams. She'll soon be in Episode 7 of \"The Gilded Age,\" if you want to see her latest thing. We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I was just minding my business. Life was a beautiful song. I didn't have a care nor worry, then you had to come along. I fell in love with you the first time I looked into them there eyes. Y"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 50, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with singer and actor Leslie Uggams. She started her career at age 6 on an episode of \"Beulah,\" which starred Ethel Waters as a maid working for a white family. At around the same time, she started singing at the Apollo. She went on to be a regular on the TV music variety show \"Sing Along With Mitch.\" She recorded over 10 albums, starred in the 1967 civil rights Broadway musical \"Hallelujah, Baby!\" - became the second Black person and first Black woman to host a TV variety show, co-starred in the groundbreaking TV series \"Roots.\" More recently, in the series \"Empire,\" she played the mother of the main character, Lucious. She played the main character's mother in the film \"American Fiction.\" She played Blind Al who hurls insults and expletives in \"Deadpool\" movies, and she'll soon be in Episode 7 of HBO's \"The Gilded Age.\" So I want to talk with you about \"Beulah,\" which starred Ethel Waters as a very wise, like, super competent maid and cook in the home of a white family. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You're overworking them. There's danger lurking in them there eyes. I fell in love with you the first time I looked into them there eyes. You've got a certain little cute way of flirting wit"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 51, "text": "Yes. And I love Ethel Waters' jazz recordings from the '30s. And in \"Beulah,\" the - you know, you can see episodes of \"Beulah\" on the internet now, and it's kind of fascinating as a piece of history. And I have to say, Ethel Waters carries herself with such dignity, and I imagine she was that way in real life. And I'm wondering what you learned from working with her and talking with her.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Hendersons."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 52, "text": "It sounds like your family was - you know, had performers and teachers and, you know, other professionals. Did anyone in your family, as far as you know, ever either work as a maid or employ a maid in their home?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was extraordinary, and she really took a liking to my mother and I. And whenever she would do what they call a soiree, a little - a private musical night, she would invite my mother and I, and we "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 53, "text": "When you had your variety show, \"The Leslie Uggams Show,\" there was a recurring sketch that I think was called the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mother kind of worked as a - she wasn't a maid for every day, but there was a psychiatrist that lived not far from our neighborhood, and she would go there. I remember she took me there a couple of"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 54, "text": "...Folks - yeah. And you grew up in the Sugar Hill neighborhood of Harlem. The Sugar Hill sketch was about when - was set in Sugar Hill when it was no longer representative of prosperity in Harlem. And, like, you know, you have trouble paying the rent, and suddenly you have a Black landlord, which is really kind of baffling because you're so surprised that a landlord would be Black. So when you were growing up in Sugar Hill, what was the neighborhood like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sugar Hill."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 55, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 56, "text": "Did you sing with Frankie Lymon?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...To stop us from singing."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 57, "text": "Frankie Lymon was, like, this teenage star who had, like, a falsetto voice...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Frankie Lymon? Listen. We used to hang out 165th Street, and we'd all sing. A lot of music in my neighborhood. Always a lot of music."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 58, "text": "...A beautiful voice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 59, "text": "He influenced a lot of women singers. And he had the big hit \"Why Do Fools Fall In Love.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 60, "text": "So I - you know, I'm wondering if, like, class was really confusing to you when you were young 'cause on the one hand, you know, you have relatives - your aunt was, you know, in show business, had a very successful career. Your - there were professionals in your family, you know, like doctors and teachers, as we've said. Was economic class confusing to you since you traveled to two - through two different worlds?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Why Do Fools Fall In Love.\""}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 61, "text": "Were you plagued by cockroaches?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it wasn't confusing. I just realized that some people were living a better life. And this was my goal - to live a better life. One of my best friends at school, at PCS, we used to hang out all t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 62, "text": "Well, let's take another break and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is singer and actor Leslie Uggams. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But, I mean - so I didn't move out of my neighborhood till I was 18, and that was because of \"Sing Along With Mitch,\" and I got popular, and we could afford to move. And that changed my life as far as"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 63, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with singer and actor Leslie Uggams. So let's get to \"Name That Tune.\" And that was a quiz show in the '60s where they'd play a few notes of a song, and the competition was about being the first person to recognize the tune.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But, I mean - so I didn't move out of my neighborhood till I was 18, and that was because of \"Sing Along With Mitch,\" and I got popular, and we could afford to move. And that changed my life as far as"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 64, "text": "That was such a strange show. I mean, Mitch Miller.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "because I was going, oh, my gosh, I can't believe it. And so they contacted me, and then I became partners with an Italian kosher butcher named Simon. And he answered the seven songs. That's how I bec"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 65, "text": "Follow - yeah. There were lyrics at the bottom of the screen and follow the bouncing ball so you could sing along with Mitch. And it was one of the most, if I may say, squarest shows.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Follow the bouncing ball."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 66, "text": "He did \"Charlie Parker With Strings.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But you know what's interesting about that is because Mitch Miller was not square. I mean, he did many jazz albums. He played..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 67, "text": "Stations in the South didn't want to carry the show because you were on it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I mean, but he knew - he had a sense of what was right for television, and it turned out to be exactly what he thought it was going to be. But that was a - it was a family show, and people loved "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 68, "text": "They didn't want to carry a show with a Black performer on it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 69, "text": "And I've heard you say that Lena Horne, when she was on TV, they'd sometimes, like, put her separately so that she could be cut out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 70, "text": "That was in movies?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, that was in movies."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 71, "text": "That's good. Show them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In movies. Her movies, when it played in the South, they'd cut her section out. That's why you if you notice in a lot of the musicals, she's isolated from anybody else so that they were able to cut th"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 72, "text": "Let me ask you about \"Hallelujah, Baby!\" It opened on Broadway in 1967 with music by Jule Styne and lyrics by Comden and Green, won a Tony for Best Musical. This was about the struggle for civil rights. Not many musicals on Broadway revolving around Black characters in 1967. What impact did the show have on your life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Show what they were missing."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 73, "text": "Yeah. And Arthur Laurents also wrote the book for \"West Side Story.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 74, "text": "And \"Gypsy,\" as you mentioned.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 75, "text": "Yeah. Yeah. So I'm going to play, if it's OK with you, my favorite song from \"Hallelujah, Baby!\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, one of the great musicals, \"Gypsy.\""}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 76, "text": "And that's \"Talking To Yourself.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 77, "text": "And you sound beautiful on this. And I love the arrangement behind you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ah, yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 78, "text": "So let's hear it. And we're going to hear your part.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 79, "text": "Me too, me too. And that's Leslie Uggams from the original cast recording of \"Hallelujah, Baby!\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Talking to yourself. Don't stand here talking to yourself. The one you love is standing there, so don't delay it. Say it. Tell him how you miss his voice, his angry moods, his sudden smile. "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 80, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with actress and singer Leslie Uggams. So moving on in your career, you had a variety show, \"The Leslie Uggams Show,\" starting in 1969. And your show replaced \"The Smothers Brothers Show.\" \"The Smothers Brothers Show\" was canceled because of how controversial it was. Pete Seger sang an anti-Vietnam War song on it. And there's a lot of, like, you know, counterculture comedy on it, and the network was not ready for that. So your show comes along. And I think it's like your opening episode, your guest star is Sly and the Family Stone.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Talking to yourself. Don't stand here talking to yourself. The one you love is standing there, so don't delay it. Say it. Tell him how you miss his voice, his angry moods, his sudden smile. "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 81, "text": "That was you who maneuvered that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 82, "text": "I can imagine. Why did you choose Sly?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. CBS didn't know what hit them."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 83, "text": "What year did you get married?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We became successful more than they thought it was going to be, but they had no plans for me to stay having the show. But we had 10 weeks of great, great times. Great, great times."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 84, "text": "Your husband is from Australia.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "1965."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 85, "text": "He's white.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 86, "text": "In '65, I think - tell me if I'm right here. Was interracial marriage in parts of the South still illegal then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 87, "text": "Were there other problems you ran into as an interracial couple back then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We're not going anywhere. Unbeknownst to me, I didn't even realize that that was a law then, so I was not thinking about anything. This is my husband, and this is how we are, and that's it. I was shoc"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 88, "text": "Why did that make a difference?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Basically, people accepted my marriage because my husband wasn't American, because he was Australian."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 89, "text": "So he's not a part of the American drama...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I figured that there's something about - then - an American white man. It's closer to, like, feeling like a - he's a slave master. You know what I'm saying?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 90, "text": "...About race...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 91, "text": "...And slavery. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 92, "text": "...It's maybe a little better 'cause he's an outsider.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 93, "text": "Because you had so many breakthroughs in your career, I'm wondering what your reaction is now to the Trump administration trying to basically do away with all DEI initiatives that they possibly can.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 94, "text": "Leslie Uggams, it's just really been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm not happy. I'm not happy. I'm shocked, quite frankly. I've seen a lot of things in my lifetime, but I'm waiting for America to come back - for us to get our senses together because it's just - how"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 95, "text": "Leslie Uggams will be in the August 3 episode of HBO's \"The Gilded Age.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. It's been a wonderful time being with you today."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-22", "guest": "Leslie Uggams", "title": "Leslie Uggams looks back on decades in show business", "question_index": 96, "text": "Tomorrow, we'll talk about how tech is helping and exploiting us. My guest will be novelist and tech reporter Vauhini Vara. Her new memoir is based in part on her history of internet searches and on asking ChatGPT for feedback on each chapter of her book. She was evaluating its benefits and shortcomings. I hope you'll join us. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Free and easy. That's my style. Howdy do me. Watch me smile. Fare-thee-well me after a while 'cause I got to roam, and anyplace I hang my hat is home. Sweetening water, cherry wine. Thank yo"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Here's the kind of conflicted relationship my guest has with Big Tech. Tech journalist and award-winning novelist Vauhini Vara has ethical reasons why she shouldn't shop on Amazon and at least as many reasons why she does. Then there's Google. She's opposed to how Google monetizes our personal information to sell ads geared to our interests. But she appreciates the archive of her own stored searches, many of which she lists in her book because of what they reveal about different periods of her life. As a tech reporter, she got access to a predecessor of ChatGPT. She loves playing with AI and has found ways it can be helpful, but she's skeptical of its use as an aid for writers. She's written twice about testing a chatbot in that capacity - first, in an essay that went viral called \"Ghosts,\" in which she asked AI to help her write about her sister's death, and now again in Vara's new book, \"Searches: Selfhood In The Digital Age.\" After she wrote chapters of the book, she fed the chapters to ChatGPT and asked for help with her writing. Then she analyzed the advice and what it says about the abilities, shortcomings and biases of the chatbot. She added her interactions with ChatGPT to her book. The theme of the book is how tech is helping and exploiting us. Vara started as a reporter at the Stanford University campus paper, where she edited its first article about Facebook when Stanford became the third university to get access to it. She covered tech for The Wall Street Journal, was a tech writer and editor for the business section of The New Yorker's website and now contributes to Bloomberg Businessweek. Her novel, \"The Immortal King Rao,\" was nominated for a Pulitzer Prize. Her short story, \"I, Buffalo,\" won an O. Henry Award. Vauhini Vara, welcome to FRESH AIR. And thank you for getting here. Your windshield got shattered by who knows what on the way over to the studio. I'm so grateful to you for making it.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 1, "text": "And you did. Thank you, and welcome. And I enjoyed your book. So you did this exercise of feeding chapters of your book to ChatGPT, asking for advice. What did you tell the chatbot? Why did you tell it you wanted its help?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was worth it. I was like, I'm getting to that studio."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 2, "text": "I have an ethical question for you, Vauhini. Is it ethical to mislead a chatbot...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm glad you asked the question that way because I'm really interested in the way in which we sort of perform different versions of ourselves when we communicate, whether it's with other human beings "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 3, "text": "...And ask questions under a kind of false pretense?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 4, "text": "After you got some feedback on the first couple of chapters, you asked the chatbot if it's OK to share a couple of more chapters. And ChatGPT answered, absolutely. Feel free to share more chapters. I'm looking forward to reading them and continuing our discussion. And that gets to a very fundamental question that you asked ChatGPT about, which is, when a chatbot uses the first person I, what exactly does it mean? Because it is not a person. It is not an I. It is artificial intelligence. It's a computer program. It's - you know, it's basically a machine. So what is the I? What does that mean, the chatbots using I?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A hundred percent. I say that as a journalist, with the full expertise and authority of my role as a journalist. You know, I think so. I think our relationship with these products is really different "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 5, "text": "So in reading ChatGPT's responses to your chapters, one of the biases you noticed was that it suggested you add more about the positive side of AI and its creators. I thought that was interesting. Did that say to you that it was revealing the chatbot's bias or pointing out your negative bias or both?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I would argue that that I is a fictional creation of the company OpenAI that created ChatGPT. So we think about these technologies, I think, sometimes as being very separate from human e"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 6, "text": "Did you use any of the chatbot's advice about balancing your reactions to AI and including more positive aspects of it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's such an interesting question, and it gets to the heart, I think, of what is problematic about these technologies because I can't claim to have any way of knowing why it said what it did. So basic"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 7, "text": "So you asked the chatbot about how it seemed programmed to flatter and to sound empathetic and kind because before it gives you any kind of criticism ever, it tells you, like, this is very well written, and this brings out, like, a combination of, like, tech history with your personal history. And, oh, I have to say - let me just interject here - that just to see what happened, I asked ChatGPT, what questions would Terry Gross ask Vauhini Vara in a FRESH AIR interview? And it was very flattering to me. It praised me as a good interviewer with, like, sensitivity and deep questions. So, you know, just another example that it can be very flattering. So, you asked it about how it seemed programmed to flatter and to sound empathetic and kind, and it responded, the way I communicate is designed to foster trust and confidence in my responses, which can be both helpful and potentially misleading. And I thought, that's so true. It can be...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't. So one thing that I wanted to be really thoughtful about was actually not writing a book that was influenced in any way by the rhetoric of the chatbot that I was then conversing with about t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 8, "text": "...Helpful and misleading. And I thought maybe the chatbot is actually very transparent.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 9, "text": "They were kind of pretty broad general questions. They all touched on themes in your book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, OpenAI has said that ChatGPT and its other products are designed to foster trust, to appear helpful. So it says those things explicitly. And, right, by saying, this is how I function, yeah, I gues"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 10, "text": "They were all subjects I wanted to explore. But they were so, like, broad in nature that, you know, there was no personality. I'm not saying, like, well, look at my personality, but there was no point of view, and there was no follow-up. It was just, like, a list of questions. But there was no follow-up to try to go deeper after the answer. And I know it wouldn't have heard your answer, but still, when I prepare an interview, like, one question leads to the next question to go deeper into that answer. And there was nothing like that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 11, "text": "My guest is tech reporter and fiction writer Vauhini Vara. Her new book is called \"Searches: Selfhood In The Digital Age.\" She's now writing for Bloomberg Business Week. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, what's interesting, I think, about that, and what I experienced, too, using ChatGPT in the context that I did is that there's something fundamental about human communication about, like, t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with tech journalist and fiction writer Vauhini Vara. Her new book, \"Searches: Selfhood In The Digital Age,\" is about how tech is helping and exploiting us and about her own conflicted relationship with big tech like Google, Amazon and AI. She fed the chapters of her book to ChatGPT, asking for advice, and used the chatbot's responses as the basis for her critique of the chatbot. So in 2021, when you wrote your essay \"Ghosts,\" which went viral, it was published initially in the Believer, it was adapted into a This American Life story. And the premise of this was you had wanted to write about the death of your sister. She was diagnosed with cancer, Ewing sarcoma, when you were a freshman in high school and she was a junior, and she died when you were both in college. And you felt like you just didn't have the words to describe how bereft you were, what a life-changing event this was in every way. And so in 2021, while you were playing around with a predecessor of ChatGPT, you asked it to help you write the essay. And I want you to describe what your process was.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, what's interesting, I think, about that, and what I experienced, too, using ChatGPT in the context that I did is that there's something fundamental about human communication about, like, t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 13, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This was before ChatGPT was out. This was before AI was a big part of our lives, but I got early access to this AI model. And the way it worked was that there was this webpage, and it had a big white "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, a couple of things. Early on when you were giving it very little information, it twice had you as, like, very athletic.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And - which was, like - it was, like, the opposite of what I wanted this chatbot to do, right? Like, it was producing a lie, a falsehood that was sort of like the worst possible falsehood that it coul"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 15, "text": "I don't know if you are or not, but, like, in one, you're like, a lacrosse player. And in the other, it's like, you run for, like, miles and miles and miles. And it also seemed to have a bias toward a happy ending. You know, she's fine now. It's like he watched too many mediocre movies", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 17, "text": "Notice how I personalized it. Like, he watched.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 18, "text": "And I genderized (ph) it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, and it's..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 19, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Totally. And it's interesting that you genderize it, too, because in that second one, the one where it thought that I was a runner, it seemed to think that I, the writer, was male. So I think..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 20, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...There are all kinds of things going up. But then later, it realizes that I'm female and then ends up generating this meet-cute between me and this, like, handsome professor who helps me deal with m"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 21, "text": "So I want to give an example of some writing that is, like, very dramatic but, also, like, very puzzling, very odd. So this is how hard it is to describe your sister and what you felt for her.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so there are all these tropes and biases that are embedded in what it's producing."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 22, "text": "Right. This is AI speaking here. This is AI writing on your behalf.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is the technologies."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 23, "text": "What? Like, it sounds very dark and interesting, but I'm not sure it makes any sense. What do you think?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. (Reading) So I can't describe her to you, but I can describe what it felt like to have her die. It felt like my life was an accident - or worse, a mistake. I'd made a mistake in being born, a"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 24, "text": "I'm thinking of how weird it is that you and I are doing literary criticism of AI.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's funny because I think so much of the experience of reading is about making your own meaning as a reader. And so, for me, I think there's something that, like, in my reading of it is kind of poign"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 25, "text": "It must sound a little strange, don't you think?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's funny because I think so much of the experience of reading is about making your own meaning as a reader. And so, for me, I think there's something that, like, in my reading of it is kind of poign"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 26, "text": "Well, let's take another short break here. If you're just joining us, my guess is Vauhini Vara. Her new book is called \"Searches: Selfhood In The Digital Age.\" There's a lot more to talk about, so stick around. We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I agree. And I think the funny thing about it is that we're two human beings trying to make meaning out of something that is fundamentally, one could argue, meaningless in that the entity that c"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 27, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with tech journalist and fiction writer Vauhini Vara. She currently writes for Bloomberg Businessweek. Her new book, \"Searches: Selfhood In The Digital Age,\" is about her conflicted relationship as a consumer with Big Tech like Google, Amazon and AI. She also asks big questions about what it means when chatbots talk to us as if they're human beings, while we're beginning to outsource our own writing, research and thinking to AI. She fed chapters of her new book to ChatGPT, asking for advice. She used those interactions to critique AI's ability to serve as an editor and writer. She reprints those interactions in her new book. So based on your interactions with AI, what are your thoughts about chatbots and the use of AI for writing or editing? It wasn't that useful for you. It was very instructive about AI. But do you think there are other people that it would be very useful for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I agree. And I think the funny thing about it is that we're two human beings trying to make meaning out of something that is fundamentally, one could argue, meaningless in that the entity that c"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 28, "text": "Your father uses AI, including...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was a study out of Cornell a couple of years ago that I was - found really interesting, where they had some people write an essay about social media just on their own. And then they gave these t"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 29, "text": "...To write haiku. So how does he use it, and what do you think of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 30, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my gosh. We could do a whole interview about my dad's use of AI. My dad has recently started sending me messages on WhatsApp where the whole text of the message is something he asked ChatGPT to wr"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 31, "text": "You know, AI in some ways is being used like a personal Cyrano de Bergerac. Like, you want to express your love for someone. You don't have the words, so you have this other guy write it as if you're saying it and signing your name to it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...To India or Canada for my retirement. He just sent me that response. And so the subtext - like, what he's communicating through ChatGPT - is the thing that's actually unsaid. And so there are a lot"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 32, "text": "So how do you use AI for real in your life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 33, "text": "So I'm unclear, since I've only used it twice, each time to ask it questions to help me understand how it worked for the interview I was about to do, as I did in your case. Because, you know, AI is at the center of the interview, so I wanted to ask it some meta questions. You know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the truth is that I use AI in very limited ways. The fact that I fed large portions of this book to ChatGPT might give people the impression that I'm some huge AI superuser, which I'm not. I'm a jo"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 34, "text": "But, you know, I used it for free. I don't have an account. I just put my question in, and it came up with stuff. What are some of the ways you expect it to be monetized in the future that it's not monetized for yet? 'Cause I feel like being able to use it at all for free is kind of like a teaser until, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 35, "text": "...No one can use it for free. I'm...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 36, "text": "...Just speculating. I have no knowledge.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 37, "text": "Yeah. And it sounds like, you know, as you're saying, that AI and the companies that own the AI products are going to know a lot more than, say, knowledge based on what I search for on Google or the books I bought on Amazon or the TV shows I'm watching on Netflix, where the algorithms are going to recommend what I want to buy or watch next.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So I'm speculating to an extent, too, but these products are really, really expensive to build. And so investors are putting a lot of money. Companies themselves are putting a lot of money into "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 38, "text": "There's parts of your book where you describe your life through your searches because you don't like the fact that Google has a lot of information on you based on your searches, but you do like the fact that your searches have been archived. You can access that archive and learn about where you were at different periods of your life based on what you searched for. How did you start thinking of searches as a record of your life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 39, "text": "Well, let's take another break here. Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Vauhini Vara. Her new book is called \"Searches: Selfhood In The Digital Age.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the first thing that I ever wrote that ended up in this book was this chapter made up entirely of my Google searches. I wrote it in 2019. I had been covering tech for a long time by that point, and"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 40, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with tech journalist and fiction writer Vauhini Vara. Her new book, \"Searches: Selfhood In The Digital Age,\" is about how tech is helping and exploiting us and about her own conflicted relationship with Big Tech like Google, Amazon and AI. Is the internet and social media making you feel obsolete as a novelist?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the first thing that I ever wrote that ended up in this book was this chapter made up entirely of my Google searches. I wrote it in 2019. I had been covering tech for a long time by that point, and"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 41, "text": "And also worried that all your writing - your essays, your journalism - will be appropriated by AI?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 42, "text": "I have to ask you about the spelling bee.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, what I would like to think is that we have choices here. And part of the reason that in this book, and when I think about my own personal use of these products, I'm so interested in, lik"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 43, "text": "A moment of semi-fame in your younger years was when you were third in the National Spelling Bee. I always wonder - what is the point of asking young people to spell obscure words that no one uses and no one even can define? Can you explain that? 'Cause it makes no sense to me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 44, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 45, "text": "Yes, but the question, though, was about asking young people to spell words that nobody ever uses, that no one can even define, really obscure words. Do you take pleasure in spelling words that you didn't even know existed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I think it speaks to this thing about AI, too. What's the point of trying to write an essay if AI can write it for you? And I think the point is that we as humans are, like, idiosyncratic, curious"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 46, "text": "So you placed third in the National Spelling Bee. What was your losing word?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I love words that I didn't even know existed. I take pleasure in spelling them. I take pleasure in, like, knowing that they exist when previously I didn't know that they exist. I - no, I love it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 47, "text": "Periplus?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, Terry, the losing word was periplus."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 48, "text": "Yeah, but again, I've never heard the word before.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Can you spell it?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 49, "text": "I have no idea what it means. I would spell it - peraplus (ph) or paraplus (ph)? 'Cause one sounds like an animal and the other sounds like an amount.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 50, "text": "OK. So I would spell it P-A-R-A-P-L-U-S or P-L-U-S-S or if it's periplouse...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. So the word is periplus. There is an alternate pronunciation, which is periplouse (ph)."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 51, "text": "...P-L-O-U-S-E. Oh, I know, but this isn't a spelling bee, so I'm allowed to do this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is cheating."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 52, "text": "I'm out. I'm - after three or four tries, I'm out. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're out. You're out, Terry."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 53, "text": "Oh, but you said paraplus.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're still out. Yeah. So it's P-E-R-I..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 54, "text": "You didn't say periplus.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know. I think it..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 55, "text": "Ah, OK. You got a little fancy there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's fair. It might be my pronunciation. But it is P-E-R-I-P-L-U-S, and I spelled it P-E-R-I-P-L-U-S-S-E."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 56, "text": "You over-fancified it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 57, "text": "And what does it mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, exactly. Exactly."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 58, "text": "Well, I think it's only fitting that we started the conversation doing a literary critique of AI's writing, and we're ending it with spelling.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It has to do with, like, the - I don't know the - I don't remember the exact definition. But it has to do with, like, the log that is kept on ships when they circumnavigate, like, when they're trying "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 59, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It has to do with, like, the - I don't know the - I don't remember the exact definition. But it has to do with, like, the log that is kept on ships when they circumnavigate, like, when they're trying "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 60, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's amazing. Perfect. Full circle."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 61, "text": "Thank you. It was really great to talk with you. I really enjoyed it. And thank you again for coming in spite of the fact that your windshield shattered on the way over.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's amazing. Perfect. Full circle."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 62, "text": "I should let you go and get it repaired before it rains or whatever.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-23", "guest": "Vauhini Vara", "title": "Author asks ChatGPT for advice on her book about tech \u2014 here's what it said", "question_index": 63, "text": "Vauhini Vara's new book is called \"Searches: Selfhood In The Digital Age.\" Our TV critic David Bianculli will talk about the significance of CBS's cancellation of \"The Late Show With Stephen Colbert\" after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I appreciate it. This was so fun. It was a real honor to get to talk to you, Terry."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 0, "text": "Jessica Mitford, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University. Jessica Mitford was famous for several reasons. One reason was her investigative books, including her best-"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 1, "text": "There's so much I want to talk with you about your life. Let's start kind of way back", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 2, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 3, "text": "...In your childhood. When you were a young girl from a prosperous family growing up in the English countryside, reading pacifist and leftist literature and getting very excited about it, what was the initial appeal to you of it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "How far?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 4, "text": "You're talking about how you think of yourself as being a product of your time. But it's fascinating how, as a product of your time, you became a leftist, yet two of your sisters became fascists. And it's really so hard to imagine sisters in the same family growing up so different. Do you have any explanation for it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I've thought this over since. I believe, actually, that one is very much the product of one's own time. I mean, the '60s people were a product of their time, weren't they? Now, I was a"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 5, "text": "I'm sure you have.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I never have been able to figure it out myself, frankly. I've been asked that a lot, lots of times."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 6, "text": "Did you - because you were so opposed to fascism, did you find yourself hating your sisters when they became fascists?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. But, I mean, the thing is, though, that some say it's sibling rivalry, which I don't believe really. I really don't think so. I don't think we were jealous of each other. It was just that I happ"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 7, "text": "You kept a running-away account when you were young...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not really. That's the odd thing. I was always deeply fond of my sister Unity. I mean, she was one of my very favorite people in the world. And what I did realize was that our divergent views politica"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 8, "text": "...Money so that you could run away from home. But what you ended up using your running-away account for was to try to go to Spain...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 9, "text": "...With the man who you later married.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 10, "text": "And this was during the Spanish Civil War.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's it, yeah. And there was just the right amount, 50 pounds."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 11, "text": "And you already knew which side", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 12, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 13, "text": "...You were on. You kind of went from this quiet, rural country life, the daughter of a lord, to suddenly being a political radical, involved in a revolution, a young married woman married to someone who was also from a wealthy background. Your husband was the nephew of Winston Churchill.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 14, "text": "I wonder if you started to see your own families as the opposition.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 15, "text": "If you saw them as the opposition...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Whether I ever saw them?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 16, "text": "...In the political...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, if I saw them as the opposition."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 17, "text": "...Battles you were waging.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 18, "text": "Jessica Mitford is my guest. You lost your first husband in action in 1941...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Yeah. See, both my parents went completely on the side of Hitler, which was very surprising. You know, we were brought up in the shadow of the first world war, in a way. And in those days,"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 19, "text": "...During the war. He was 23 years old. You, just before that, lost your baby who...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 20, "text": "...Died of measles, I read it was.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 21, "text": "You were young. You were in your 20s. Did you despair at that point that your life was over? I think it must've been so hard to suffer those two losses at such a young age.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The one that - born in Rotherhithe Street. Right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 22, "text": "Let's move ahead a little bit.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, also, by then, I had another baby born in 1941, Dinky - Constancia Romilly - who now lives in Atlanta. She's a nurse there, in fact. And, I mean, that was ages ago. She's now 48, absolutely anci"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 23, "text": "You wrote about your membership in the Communist Party in your book, \"A Fine Old Conflict.\" What got you to join when you did?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 24, "text": "What got you to leave in 1958?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you see, in the first place, I'd always been a terrific supporter of the Communist Party in England ever since I was about 15 because if you sort of studied the times, in those days, you know, w"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 25, "text": "So many people were harassed during the McCarthy period, and so many lives were ruined. I'm thinking that it must've been hard to harass someone like you, someone who had been outspoken all of her life and who had already, like, a reputation for eccentricity because of her family. I mean, did you feel like, what can you do to hurt me?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, by 1958, in the first place, the Khrushchev report about the crimes of Stalin had come out, and as a consequence of that, an awful lot of people flocked out of the CP. Not - I didn't at the time"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 26, "text": "Your husband, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I did it a little bit. Yeah. I'll tell you what I really felt, which is that the hell with them sort of thing. I mean, we were subpoenaed. Bob Treuhaft, my husband..."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And I were both subpoenaed. And I was subpoenaed by not only the main House Committee on Un-American Activities, but also the local version of the same, the California committee and so on. And, wel"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 28, "text": "In your memoir about your coming-of-age...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1989 interview with author and activist Jessica Mitford. She and her aristocratic sisters are the subjects of the new BritBox drama series titled \"Outrageo"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 29, "text": "...called \"Daughters And Rebels,\" you wrote that you - you confessed that you were guiltily looking forward to being a debutante.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 30, "text": "Now, I don't know if you ever had that experience or not, but certainly you became a very well-known leftist and left that society world. Your father wrote you out of his will...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 31, "text": "...I think because you had named one of your children after Lenin. You called him Nicholas.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 32, "text": "Do you ever have any regrets about leaving wealth and privilege?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 33, "text": "This could have been, I guess, a big thing if you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. In fact, you know, when that happened, which is in '58, I happened to be in Mexico at the time, and to the horror of the landlady where I was staying, 'cause she somehow thought she was going to h"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 34, "text": "But you had just assumed that you would...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If I was like, bah, you know, it's all screamed away or something, you know."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 35, "text": "And that when you make the decision to live your life as you do...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, of course. So I never expected it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 36, "text": "...You can't have it both ways.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 37, "text": "That was the effective...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 38, "text": "Jessica Mitford, let's talk a little bit about your writing. You're best known for the book \"The American Way Of Death,\" your expose of the funeral industry. What led you to want to expose the horrors of the funeral industry and how they would get people when they were weak and take them for whatever they could.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course. Exactly. You said it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 39, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it is rather weird, I admit. You know, it's an odd subject, indeed. I think the thing is that Bob Treuhaft, my husband - who was a lawyer in Oakland - was representing numerous trade unions. And"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 40, "text": "Oh, what did you see in there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And by the landlords and things. So why pick on the wretched undertakers - until I began reading the trade magazines."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 41, "text": "Did you go undercover and pose as someone who had a deceased loved one so that you could shop for funeral arrangements...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, God. Well, the titles would lead you on - Mortuary Management, Casket And Sunnyside - one - Casket And Sunnyside - and my favorite title of all, you know, which really makes you think - Concept: T"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 42, "text": "...To see what it was like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I did."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 43, "text": "What was the experience there like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did quite a bit of that. That was one of the best parts of it, especially Forest Lawn in Los Angeles. That was tremendous fun."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 44, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, I went there. Actually, I went with a young man who is an American fellow who was teaching English history or something in one of the colleges there in Los Angeles. And so we made up tha"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 45, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Really hideous. And I said - I looked at it, and I said, my sister wouldn't be caught dead in that sort of thing, you know?"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 46, "text": "After writing \"The American Way Of Death,\" did you find yourself in the position of having to genuinely prepare somebody's funeral and having to shop for real in the funeral industry?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so, then we kind of went along and saw all the different plots and blah, blah. And it was great fun."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 47, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have, once or twice. But my favorite thing in that line, there was a man called Howard Gossage - extremely well known in San Francisco - but he died many years ago. He was a wonderful - he was an ad"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 48, "text": "Now, there was a casket named after you after your book came out, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So you know how when somebody dies, and the survivors, you know - you always sort of say - or people say, well, what can I - can I do anything? And the answer is no, obviously. But in this case, yes w"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 49, "text": "A kind of bargain basement, budget kind of casket.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 50, "text": "Did they really make it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I know. It was such a marvelous idea, sort of industrialist in the Middle West had plans and specifications for the Jessica Mitford casket, which was going to be sort of made of plastic, I think"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Jessica Mitford", "title": "'Outrageous' dramatizes the lives of the Mitford sisters", "question_index": 51, "text": "Jessica Mitford, it's been such a pleasure to have you here. I thank you very, very much for joining me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm not sure. I never actually saw one. My sister Nancy said, oh, well, we all know that you get 10% royalties on those Mitfords."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Barbra Streisand", "title": "Remembering lyricist Alan Bergman", "question_index": 0, "text": "How did you come up with the phrase nice and easy, which became the title of the song and Sinatra's album?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Let's take it nice and easy. It's going to be so easy for us to fall in love. Hey, baby. What's your hurry? Relax. Don't you worry. We're going to fall in love. We're on the road to romance."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Barbra Streisand", "title": "Remembering lyricist Alan Bergman", "question_index": 1, "text": "This is one of those many songs about sex that isn't literally about sex, but it's absolutely about sex.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It also had a kind of subtext to be a little sexy, which certainly also was part of Sinatra."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Barbra Streisand", "title": "Remembering lyricist Alan Bergman", "question_index": 2, "text": "Did he ever ask - did Sinatra ever ask you to write for him after having such success with this song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it is."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Barbra Streisand", "title": "Remembering lyricist Alan Bergman", "question_index": 3, "text": "Now, you've written a lot of songs for movies. Some of your best-known songs are songs you wrote for movies. You haven't written that much for theater. How did you gravitate to writing songs for movies?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Barbra Streisand", "title": "Remembering lyricist Alan Bergman", "question_index": 4, "text": "Well, let's listen to Alan Bergman sing. This is \"What Are You Doing the Rest of Your Life?\" which was written for the 1969 film \"The Happy Ending.\" The composer was Michel Legrand. Why don't you tell us the story behind the song before we hear it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think maybe movies made a deeper impression growing up, and we always knew that we wanted to write in a dramatic context. We were more interested in that than we were in just writing songs in limbo."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Barbra Streisand", "title": "Remembering lyricist Alan Bergman", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Richard Brooks, who was a wonderful writer and director, directed and wrote this film called \"The Happy Ending,\" which I think was well ahead of its time and occasionally will appear on very, very lat"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Barbra Streisand", "title": "Remembering lyricist Alan Bergman", "question_index": 6, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And Alan said to him, play it again. And he said, oh, I don't remember quite what I played. Luckily, we had the tape machine going. So we had the music."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Barbra Streisand", "title": "Remembering lyricist Alan Bergman", "question_index": 7, "text": "...The first line of the song inspired the melody.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then we zipped through it."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Barbra Streisand", "title": "Remembering lyricist Alan Bergman", "question_index": 8, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Barbra Streisand", "title": "Remembering lyricist Alan Bergman", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well, let's hear Alan Bergman singing \"What Are You Doing The Rest Of Your Life?\" that he and Marilyn Bergman co-wrote.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But that happens sometimes. With Michel, we can't write lyrics first. We prefer not to write lyrics first. We prefer to have the melody. We feel that, when we have the melody, that there are words on "}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Barbra Streisand", "title": "Remembering lyricist Alan Bergman", "question_index": 10, "text": "You were both writing lyrics for the composer Lew Spence, who wrote the melody...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's Alan Bergman, singing a song he wrote with his wife, Marilyn Bergman. We'll get back to Terry's 2007 interview with the Bergmans after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Lyricist Al"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Barbra Streisand", "title": "Remembering lyricist Alan Bergman", "question_index": 11, "text": "...For \"Nice and Easy,\" which was one of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Barbra Streisand", "title": "Remembering lyricist Alan Bergman", "question_index": 12, "text": "...Your first hits. And, Marilyn, the way you described it, one of you was his morning lyricist and the other was his afternoon lyricist. How did he end up having two different lyricists?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Barbra Streisand", "title": "Remembering lyricist Alan Bergman", "question_index": 13, "text": "You were both independently writing lyrics for Lew Spence. You met...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Barbra Streisand", "title": "Remembering lyricist Alan Bergman", "question_index": 14, "text": "...Through him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "With Lew Spence."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Barbra Streisand", "title": "Remembering lyricist Alan Bergman", "question_index": 15, "text": "Oh, with Lew Spence?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "With, yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Barbra Streisand", "title": "Remembering lyricist Alan Bergman", "question_index": 16, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "With Lew Spence."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Barbra Streisand", "title": "Remembering lyricist Alan Bergman", "question_index": 17, "text": "OK. You met through him, and then you decided that you should be writing lyrics with each other.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Barbra Streisand", "title": "Remembering lyricist Alan Bergman", "question_index": 18, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Barbra Streisand", "title": "Remembering lyricist Alan Bergman", "question_index": 19, "text": "Yeah?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And we wrote a song that day."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Barbra Streisand", "title": "Remembering lyricist Alan Bergman", "question_index": 20, "text": "Can you share a few bars of the awful song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We just - the first day we were introduced to each other, we wrote a song. It was a terrible song, but the - we love the process. We enjoy the process. And we - that - from that day on, we've been wri"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Barbra Streisand", "title": "Remembering lyricist Alan Bergman", "question_index": 21, "text": "Which was?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I only know the title."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Barbra Streisand", "title": "Remembering lyricist Alan Bergman", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ouch."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Barbra Streisand", "title": "Remembering lyricist Alan Bergman", "question_index": 23, "text": "So, Alan Bergman, Johnny Mercer was your mentor. How were...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Something like that. Ouch is right."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Barbra Streisand", "title": "Remembering lyricist Alan Bergman", "question_index": 24, "text": "...You lucky enough to get...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Barbra Streisand", "title": "Remembering lyricist Alan Bergman", "question_index": 25, "text": "...To know him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Barbra Streisand", "title": "Remembering lyricist Alan Bergman", "question_index": 26, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I met him when I was in graduate school at UCLA. And he heard some things I had written, and he took a liking to me. And we - he spent, you know, over a period of two or three years - yeah, he w"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Barbra Streisand", "title": "Remembering lyricist Alan Bergman", "question_index": 27, "text": "What was some of the best advice that Johnny Mercer ever gave you about songwriting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Barbra Streisand", "title": "Remembering lyricist Alan Bergman", "question_index": 28, "text": "Alan Bergman, one of the songs you sing on your new album lyrically is a song that you say was an engagement gift to Marilyn...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, he just outlined the craft about singing. Yeah. You're writing for an instrument, and you have to respect that. And about - a lot about imagery. More - it would be more, you can do bet"}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Barbra Streisand", "title": "Remembering lyricist Alan Bergman", "question_index": 29, "text": "...Bergman.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Barbra Streisand", "title": "Remembering lyricist Alan Bergman", "question_index": 30, "text": "And the song is \"That Face,\" which was first recorded by Fred Astaire.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Barbra Streisand", "title": "Remembering lyricist Alan Bergman", "question_index": 31, "text": "So before we hear you sing it, what's the story behind this song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Barbra Streisand", "title": "Remembering lyricist Alan Bergman", "question_index": 32, "text": "Me too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Still do."}
{"id": null, "date": "2025-07-25", "guest": "Barbra Streisand", "title": "Remembering lyricist Alan Bergman", "question_index": 33, "text": "Let's hear you sing it from the new Alan Bergman CD, \"Lyrically.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And she married me. Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5485987", "date": "2025-07-31", "guest": "Peter Guralnick", "title": "'The Colonel and The King' dives into the relationship between Elvis and his manager", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The history of rock and roll - really, the history of most 20th century popular music - is filled with stories of unscrupulous managers. One of the men frequently near the top of the list is Elvis Presley's longtime manager, Colonel Tom Parker. He had worked in carnivals and was considered to have a slippery relationship with the truth and a flair for exaggeration but a talent for making a profitable business deal. Parker's name and his background were fictions. He was really from Holland, not the U.S. He stowed away on a ship to the U.S. and never became a citizen of America. He served in the military under his false identity but was never a colonel in the U.S. Army. Colonel was an honorific bestowed on him by the governor of Louisiana. During that time, my guest Peter Guralnick was writing his definitive two-volume biography of Elvis Presley. He got to see Parker's archive, which included his letters, thousands of them. He knew the colonel and his letters were worthy of a book, and now Guralnick has written it. It's called \"The Colonel And The King.\" The first half of the book is a biography of the colonel. The second is a collection of his letters written to Elvis, executives at his record label, RCA, and other people in the orbit of Elvis' music and movies. Guralnick says researching this book made him question many of his own preconceptions about Parker and led to plenty of surprises. Guralnick's other books include a biography of Sam Phillips whose Sun record label was the first to record Elvis. Peter Guralnick, welcome back to FRESH AIR. So I want to hear what some of your preconceptions were about Colonel Tom Parker.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5485987", "date": "2025-07-31", "guest": "Peter Guralnick", "title": "'The Colonel and The King' dives into the relationship between Elvis and his manager", "question_index": 1, "text": "I think the colonel is often blamed for Elvis' most shlocky recordings and for, like, the big-white-suit Elvis in which he became a parody of himself. But you write about how Colonel Tom Parker always insisted that it was Elvis who would choose the music that he recorded, that the record company couldn't dictate that. It was different in the movies 'cause that was a whole different deal than his RCA recording contract, and, you know, it was understood that the movie director was handling that. But how true did he stay to that about letting Elvis choose his own music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think my biggest preconception - it wasn't a negative preconception. It was just the idea the colonel was a character. He was someone who could rise above any troubles that were sat in his way and w"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5485987", "date": "2025-07-31", "guest": "Peter Guralnick", "title": "'The Colonel and The King' dives into the relationship between Elvis and his manager", "question_index": 2, "text": "Well, let's hear an example of him defending one of Elvis' choices. And this is right after he signed to RCA. I think it's, like, his first recording session when Elvis made \"Heartbreak Hotel,\" which is really one of my favorite of Elvis' recordings. And what RCA wanted him to record were songs like \"Wham Bam Hot Ziggety Zam (ph),\" which sounds like a follow-up song to Perry Como's \"Hot Diggity Dog,\" and \"Shiver And Shake.\" I don't know what that would've been. But \"Wham Bam Hot Ziggety Zam,\" that really could not have been a good song", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Colonel had absolutely nothing to do with the music. He did not have one single thing other than to defend Elvis' ability to make the music he wanted to make. And Colonel defends Elvis against the rec"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5485987", "date": "2025-07-31", "guest": "Peter Guralnick", "title": "'The Colonel and The King' dives into the relationship between Elvis and his manager", "question_index": 3, "text": ". And Elvis wanted to do \"Heartbreak Hotel.\" How did the colonel defend Elvis against RCA?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Colonel had absolutely nothing to do with the music. He did not have one single thing other than to defend Elvis' ability to make the music he wanted to make. And Colonel defends Elvis against the rec"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5485987", "date": "2025-07-31", "guest": "Peter Guralnick", "title": "'The Colonel and The King' dives into the relationship between Elvis and his manager", "question_index": 4, "text": "So let's hear \"Heartbreak Hotel,\" and I believe it's Chet Atkins on guitar and Floyd Cramer at the piano.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first of all, Elvis brought the song into the studio. Mae Axton had written the song or co-written the song, gave it to Elvis at the DJ convention a couple of months before the session, a month "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5485987", "date": "2025-07-31", "guest": "Peter Guralnick", "title": "'The Colonel and The King' dives into the relationship between Elvis and his manager", "question_index": 5, "text": "Oh, great. OK. Here's \"Heartbreak Hotel.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's Chet Atkins and also Elvis' guitarist, Scotty Moore, and Bill Black and..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5485987", "date": "2025-07-31", "guest": "Peter Guralnick", "title": "'The Colonel and The King' dives into the relationship between Elvis and his manager", "question_index": 6, "text": "So that was Elvis' \"Heartbreak Hotel,\" recorded in 1956. Parker got his start in carny shows, a profession famous for come-ons and outright cons to get you to buy a ticket. So let's talk about his origin story, because it includes carny shows, and it includes lying about who he was. His whole identity was totally fictitious. So tell us where he grew up and what his real name was.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Well, since my baby left me, well, I found a new place to dwell. Well, it's down at the end of Lonely Street at Heartbreak Hotel, where I'll be, I'll be so lonely, baby. Well, I'm so lonely."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5485987", "date": "2025-07-31", "guest": "Peter Guralnick", "title": "'The Colonel and The King' dives into the relationship between Elvis and his manager", "question_index": 7, "text": "There was a fair that would come to his town in Holland every year and it had a family circus within the fair. And he was so taken with the circus, he started his own little circus with, like, a handmade newspaper tent. And he trained, like, insects and animals to perform.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "His real name was Andreas Cornelis van Kuijk. And he grew up in Breda, which was a fairly provincial town not too far from Rotterdam but very different from Rotterdam. He was raised in a family in whi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5485987", "date": "2025-07-31", "guest": "Peter Guralnick", "title": "'The Colonel and The King' dives into the relationship between Elvis and his manager", "question_index": 8, "text": "I just think that's really interesting. But he ended up working in carnivals. What do you know about the carnival work that he did in Holland and in the U.S.? Because carnies have such a reputation for being conmen.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5485987", "date": "2025-07-31", "guest": "Peter Guralnick", "title": "'The Colonel and The King' dives into the relationship between Elvis and his manager", "question_index": 9, "text": "What's the story behind his discharge in the military? Because another story that circulates about Colonel Tom Parker is that he was discharged as a psychopath, that he was in military prison for a while because he tried to desert. I think that's the story. So what is the story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, again, I think Colonel would dispute that. The only thing that Colonel believed in, in his entire life - he did not believe in organized religion - he believed in the wonderful world of show bus"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5485987", "date": "2025-07-31", "guest": "Peter Guralnick", "title": "'The Colonel and The King' dives into the relationship between Elvis and his manager", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Peter Guralnick, who wrote the definitive two-volume biography of Elvis Presley and now has a book about his longtime manager, Colonel Tom Parker, that includes many of the letters Parker wrote, including letters to Elvis. We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "His first enlistment, which I think was - was it two years or three years? I'm not sure. But it was a very happy time. He spent a good deal of it in Hawaii, where he was adopted by a family named Cofe"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5485987", "date": "2025-07-31", "guest": "Peter Guralnick", "title": "'The Colonel and The King' dives into the relationship between Elvis and his manager", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Peter Guralnick. His new book, \"The Colonel And The King,\" is a biography of Elvis Presley's longtime manager, Colonel Tom Parker. Tom Hanks played Parker in the 2022 film \"Elvis.\" Early on in Elvis' career, once he started doing, like, TV, especially \"The Ed Sullivan Show\" - and he became known as Elvis the Pelvis because of these, like, gyrations that were considered, like, way too sexual for TV and for a show like \"The Ed Sullivan Show,\" which was a family show - the colonel kind of defended him and thought like, hey, this is great. This is great publicity. It's not a problem. You don't have to change.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "His first enlistment, which I think was - was it two years or three years? I'm not sure. But it was a very happy time. He spent a good deal of it in Hawaii, where he was adopted by a family named Cofe"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5485987", "date": "2025-07-31", "guest": "Peter Guralnick", "title": "'The Colonel and The King' dives into the relationship between Elvis and his manager", "question_index": 12, "text": "So let's talk about Elvis in the movies. He had a screen test with the producer Hal Wallis in 1956. Elvis was only 21. Whose idea was it to do movies? Did that come from the studio, from Elvis, from the Colonel?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah, he defended him, just as he would've defended Elvis if Elvis said I want to stand in one spot and not move around one bit. But I think you mentioned Ed Sullivan. Ed Sullivan said, I'll nev"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5485987", "date": "2025-07-31", "guest": "Peter Guralnick", "title": "'The Colonel and The King' dives into the relationship between Elvis and his manager", "question_index": 13, "text": "There's some not very good songs in his films, but there's some really good ones, too. And one of them is from \"KING CREOLE,\" which you just mentioned. It's called \"Trouble.\" It's such a great performance. Can you talk about the song and what you think makes it great and the difference between how it's performed in the movie and how it's performed on the recording?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It came from Elvis. That was Elvis' highest ambition was to be a movie star along the lines of Marlon Brando, James Dean, Montgomery Clift. And that's what Colonel promoted. You can even see the lette"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5485987", "date": "2025-07-31", "guest": "Peter Guralnick", "title": "'The Colonel and The King' dives into the relationship between Elvis and his manager", "question_index": 14, "text": "So why don't we hear the record that was recorded in the studio and released, 'cause that's pretty great. This is Elvis' recording of \"Trouble,\" a song from the film \"KING CREOLE.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the interesting thing with \"Trouble,\" it was written by Leiber and Stoller, and it's just one of those stop time blues, which, you know, Elvis was always so drawn to. So, I mean, it's a blues, a"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5485987", "date": "2025-07-31", "guest": "Peter Guralnick", "title": "'The Colonel and The King' dives into the relationship between Elvis and his manager", "question_index": 15, "text": "So that's a song from the film \"KING CREOLE,\" the Elvis musical. Well, on that note, we have to take a short break. So let me reintroduce you. My guest is Peter Guralnick. His new book is about Elvis Presley's longtime manager, Colonel Tom Parker. The book is called \"The Colonel And The King.\" We'll be back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I never looked for trouble, but I never ran. I don't take no orders from no kind of man. I'm only made out of flesh, blood and bone. (Singing) But if you're going to start a rumble, don't you try it o"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5485987", "date": "2025-07-31", "guest": "Peter Guralnick", "title": "'The Colonel and The King' dives into the relationship between Elvis and his manager", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Peter Guralnick. He's the author of the definitive two-volume biography of Elvis Presley. Now he's written a book about Elvis' longtime manager, Colonel Tom Parker. Many people consider Parker to have been unscrupulous and manipulative, but very good at making a profit. Guralnick says the research for the book led him to challenge many preconceptions about Parker, including some of his own. The book is called \"The Colonel And The King.\" The first half is a biography of Parker. The second half is a collection of his letters, many of which were written to Elvis. Guralnick is also the author of a book about Sam Phillips, whose Sun record label was the first to record and release Elvis' music. So let's play another song. And I want to play \"Are You Lonesome Tonight?\" which was the one song that Colonel Tom Parker ever suggested that Elvis record because the colonel tried to stay out of the music part and leave that to Elvis. But, you know, he loved the song. It was his wife's favorite song. And as you've said, it was an example of how Elvis wanted to sing more adult material. This was recorded at the same session as Elvis' first album after coming out of the Army, the album \"Elvis Is Back!\" But this wasn't included on the album. Why not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) One night with you is what I'm now praying for. The things that we two could plan would make my dreams come true. Just call my name..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5485987", "date": "2025-07-31", "guest": "Peter Guralnick", "title": "'The Colonel and The King' dives into the relationship between Elvis and his manager", "question_index": 17, "text": "All right, so let's hear \"Are You Lonesome Tonight?\" which was recorded as part of the first sessions after Elvis got out of the Army.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But it was a very - as I say, it was a very common belief. And that's why it wasn't on - none of the singles, you know, \"It's Now Or Never.\" I mean, none of the singles recorded at the \"Elvis Is Bac"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5485987", "date": "2025-07-31", "guest": "Peter Guralnick", "title": "'The Colonel and The King' dives into the relationship between Elvis and his manager", "question_index": 18, "text": "That was Elvis' \"Are You Lonesome Tonight?\" recorded after he got out of the Army. So Elvis Presley resumed his movie career after he got out of the military. And one of the movies he made was \"Viva Las Vegas,\" which had songs by Mort Shuman and Doc Pomus. And it includes a song that the first time I heard it, which was not that long ago - maybe I didn't notice it so much in the movie. I don't know. But it really struck me when I heard it a few months ago because it's such - it's so unlike Elvis' repertoire. It has a very, like, bluesy jazz feel. But I mean like jazz blues, as opposed to blues, blues. And it's very behind the beat, which is kind of unlike Elvis. It's almost as if, like, Elvis had been listening to Chet Baker, which, like, I don't know", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Are you lonesome tonight? Do you miss me tonight? Are you sorry we drifted apart? Does your memory stray to a bright summer day when I kissed you and called you sweetheart? Do the chairs in "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5485987", "date": "2025-07-31", "guest": "Peter Guralnick", "title": "'The Colonel and The King' dives into the relationship between Elvis and his manager", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Are you lonesome tonight? Do you miss me tonight? Are you sorry we drifted apart? Does your memory stray to a bright summer day when I kissed you and called you sweetheart? Do the chairs in "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5485987", "date": "2025-07-31", "guest": "Peter Guralnick", "title": "'The Colonel and The King' dives into the relationship between Elvis and his manager", "question_index": 20, "text": "You think?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5485987", "date": "2025-07-31", "guest": "Peter Guralnick", "title": "'The Colonel and The King' dives into the relationship between Elvis and his manager", "question_index": 21, "text": "Right. So this is part of a dream sequence in the movie. Do you want to say anything? I know you really like this song a lot.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think Elvis, as Sam Phillips said, had ears all around his head, so..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5485987", "date": "2025-07-31", "guest": "Peter Guralnick", "title": "'The Colonel and The King' dives into the relationship between Elvis and his manager", "question_index": 22, "text": "So let's hear \"I Need Somebody To Lean On,\" which is a song from \"Viva Las Vegas.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the extraordinary thing about it is it's almost like it could have come out of Gene Kelly's \"An American In Paris.\" I mean, it's on such a different level, not just of anything in \"Viva Las Ve"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5485987", "date": "2025-07-31", "guest": "Peter Guralnick", "title": "'The Colonel and The King' dives into the relationship between Elvis and his manager", "question_index": 23, "text": "That was Elvis singing the ballad \"I Need Somebody To Lean On,\" a song written for him for the film \"Viva Las Vegas.\" So let's talk about the period when, like, the colonel was out of control with his gambling and Elvis was out of control with his drug addictions. In September of 1973, the colonel and Elvis basically fired each other. What happened between them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I need somebody to lean on. I need somebody to tell my troubles to. No use denying I'm close to crying. But what good, tell me what good would my crying do? I need somebody to help me, help "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5485987", "date": "2025-07-31", "guest": "Peter Guralnick", "title": "'The Colonel and The King' dives into the relationship between Elvis and his manager", "question_index": 24, "text": "Yeah. So in September of 1973, the colonel even writes a letter to Elvis' father saying, I have tendered my resignation, effective immediately. And Elvis was really angry at the colonel, but their relationship continued.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, basically, Elvis, on stage, insulted the Hilton family, who were his employers, who owned the hotel and who - you know, with whom he had a one-point-something-million-dollar annual contract. And"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5485987", "date": "2025-07-31", "guest": "Peter Guralnick", "title": "'The Colonel and The King' dives into the relationship between Elvis and his manager", "question_index": 25, "text": "Let's take another break here, and then we'll talk some more. My guest is Peter Guralnick, who wrote the definitive two-volume biography of Elvis Presley and now has a book about Elvis' longtime manager, Colonel Tom Parker. It includes many of the letters Parker wrote, including letters to Elvis. We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was virtually no contact between them for nearly three months until around Christmastime, when Colonel heard from Vernon and, I think, from Red West - from Sonny West that Elvis wanted to be in "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5485987", "date": "2025-07-31", "guest": "Peter Guralnick", "title": "'The Colonel and The King' dives into the relationship between Elvis and his manager", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Peter Guralnick. His new book \"The Colonel And The King\" is a biography of Elvis Presley's longtime manager Colonel Tom Parker. Elvis died August 16, 1977. This was the day before his sixth tour of the year was scheduled to begin. It's a lot of tours, especially if you're addicted like Elvis was and visibly getting sicker. Could the colonel have prevented that, do you think? Do you think the colonel should have tried to have Elvis work less or try to do something to help him get off these drugs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was virtually no contact between them for nearly three months until around Christmastime, when Colonel heard from Vernon and, I think, from Red West - from Sonny West that Elvis wanted to be in "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5485987", "date": "2025-07-31", "guest": "Peter Guralnick", "title": "'The Colonel and The King' dives into the relationship between Elvis and his manager", "question_index": 27, "text": "You met the colonel because you were working on your Elvis biography. Just explain a little bit how you met him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You can see all through the last few years Colonel trying to get Elvis off the road, not on the road. It was not Colonel who was putting him on the road. It was Elvis' need for money. I mean, there wa"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5485987", "date": "2025-07-31", "guest": "Peter Guralnick", "title": "'The Colonel and The King' dives into the relationship between Elvis and his manager", "question_index": 28, "text": "He never did write that memoir that he said he'd been writing for decades.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In this letter, which he wrote to me in July of 1990, I had sent him - this was early on in my writing the - \"Last Train To Memphis.\" And it was very difficult to piece together what had actually happ"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5485987", "date": "2025-07-31", "guest": "Peter Guralnick", "title": "'The Colonel and The King' dives into the relationship between Elvis and his manager", "question_index": 29, "text": "Let's close with a song that you really love by Elvis. It could be one of his hits or a song that a few people know that you'd like them to know, you'd like to introduce them to.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He couldn't. And the reason he couldn't was early on in his management career, Colonel had come to feel that the artist always wears the white hat and the manager wears the black hat. And if there's a"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5485987", "date": "2025-07-31", "guest": "Peter Guralnick", "title": "'The Colonel and The King' dives into the relationship between Elvis and his manager", "question_index": 30, "text": "Peter Guralnick, thank you so much for coming back to FRESH AIR and congratulations on your book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this is an old standby for me. I mean, it's \"Trying To Get To You,\" a song that Elvis first recorded in '55 for Sun. He never finished it. I always say it's the best unfinished song he ever reco"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5485987", "date": "2025-07-31", "guest": "Peter Guralnick", "title": "'The Colonel and The King' dives into the relationship between Elvis and his manager", "question_index": 31, "text": "Peter Guralnick's new book about Colonel Tom Parker, Elvis Presley's longtime manager, is called \"The Colonel And The King.\" After we take a short break, John Powers will review the new British crime drama \"Code Of Silence,\" about a deaf woman who's asked to help in a police investigation by reading lips. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thanks. I really enjoyed it."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 0, "text": "Eddie Palmieri, you were born in Spanish Harlem in 1936, and I think you were about 7 when your family moved to the South Bronx. Were the neighborhoods very similar or different?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Eddie Palmieri performed and recorded all his life. He won multiple Grammys, including a Latin Grammy Lifetime Achievement Award, and was recognized as a jazz master by the National Endowment for the "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 1, "text": "What did it mean to you to be Puerto Rican when you were growing up? Were you very proud of being Puerto Rican or just - were you just Puerto Rican and not - didn't think about it very much one way or another?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, well, they were different at that time. The Hispanic movement was certainly into the - el barrio, what they call. And we moved there when we - I was 5 years old. And by 7 years old, I was already "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 2, "text": "Now, I know when you were growing up, your mother really wanted you to play piano, but you wanted to play drums.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no - always quite unique being Puerto Rican because of what I saw, the family being so united. When my relatives all came from Puerto Rico, my uncles on - my grandmother, for example, had an open-"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 3, "text": "Let's start with your mother wanting you to play piano. Why was she so big on that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 4, "text": "Now, when you were playing in your uncle's band - you were in your early teens - what did you play in the band?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, because she passed the Depression here, and actually, in 1929, she was here already. She arrived in '25. And a lesson was 25 cents. And the idea was, you know, try to get the 25 cents. With $1.2"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 5, "text": "Now, you studied classical music when you were young - right? - on the piano.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I played timbales, and my uncle sang. My other uncle played conga, and we had two guitars, a tres and a second guitar who sang, a trumpet and the bass player, Nicolas (ph). When they wasn't enough"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 6, "text": "Did you resent having to play classical music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, because of Miss Margaret Bonds. She was a classical concert player. And by 11, I gave a recital at Carnegie Hall Recital Hall. But all those years from 11 through 12, I just wanted to play drums"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no. I just didn't want to play the piano at all. I mean, I wanted to play drums. And, you know, you have to be - you have to contemplate, like, what's going through my mind, 'cause I want to play "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 8, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...An incredible ear. I called them mama ear chops."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, she could hear. She's, hey, you know, that don't sound right, you know, an extra 15 minutes. Oh, things like that."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 10, "text": "So when you were playing timbales in your uncle's band, what was the atmosphere like? You were, I don't know, 13 or 14.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I was missing the game. And I was the first baseman, and then I had to become the manager because if I wasn't the manager, probably they wouldn't let me play."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 11, "text": "And he was playing in dance halls.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 12, "text": "You were playing in the Borscht Belt when you were 13 or 14?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, dance halls and up in the Villas. The Villas is like the Borscht Circuit, you know, the Catskills here."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 13, "text": "The Spanish Borscht Belt.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, but in the Spanish ones."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 14, "text": "So this is in the Catskill Mountains of New York, where a lot of summer resorts art.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. They were owned by Spaniards at that time. That was where - they call them La Villas. And..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 15, "text": "So what was the atmosphere like? What kind of people did you meet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is Plattekill, off Newburgh. Yeah. And I started working up there in 1950, '51. You know, I mean, it's unbelievable."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 16, "text": "A cow?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'll give you an idea. When - the first day I got there, I saw - I went to see the pool. They told me they had a pool in this villa, and I went to see the pool. There was a cow drinking and one "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 17, "text": "I don't know. I didn't know her if name was Elsie at that time, so I didn't do anything (ph) - from Borden's Milk. The main thing is that that was the cows that gave you the milk. For $35, you could stay a week at the Villas room and board, and that fresh milk pitcher was there in the morning. And then my uncles and my grandfather would love to go up there because they would play - excuse me - they could gamble up there. They could play cards all day long, or dominos. And that was their world. And my uncle was booked in - as the music of the Villas and I was part of that. So that was the way we made a living.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 18, "text": "Did you drink when you were young?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 19, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 20, "text": "When you were young, you played with Tito Rodriguez. What did you learn about showmanship and running a band from watching him?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Eddie Palmeri speaking to Terry Gross in 1994. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1994 interview with pianist, band leader and composer Eddie Palmieri,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 21, "text": "How did he dress?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, he was the one. He was the dandy. He was the dandy because no one dressed like him."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, immaculately, man. You know, so hip. And he was so sharp. The orchestra all uniform because he was the best singer that we had here, as far as a rumbero singer, of an orchestra leader. And he had "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 23, "text": "What did you wear in the band?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was one of those things that there was something that just irked him, you know? But when I was working with him from the year '58 to '60, I certainly learned a tremendous amount from Mr. Tito Rodri"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 24, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, all different kinds of uniforms. Sometimes we looked like waiters, you know?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 25, "text": "When did you feel ready to form your own band?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing in Spanish)."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 26, "text": "Were trombones unusual for a Latin band?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "1960 after I left Tito Rodriguez. It took about a year, and then by 1961, I started different forms of orchestra. But La Perfecta I started in late '61, which was the orchestra then that stood togethe"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 27, "text": "So when people compared your sound to elephants, was that in praise?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "At that time, yes. They called us, like, the sound of the roaring elephants."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 28, "text": "Now, a lot of the hotels that you mentioned had primarily Jewish clientele vacationing there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, well, in praise and in annoyance. You know, it was a combination of both because we were playing up in the Catskills for three summers with that orchestra. And that's a really commercial setting. "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 29, "text": "So were you used to seeing people who weren't Latin doing the cha-cha, the mambo and everything? I wonder what you thought of their dancing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. That's why I told you before, sometimes, at most it was quite annoying."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 30, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no, of course because in the '50s, remember that the Jewish clientele was the clientele in the Palladium on Wednesdays."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 31, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And what we saw was not only the Jewish clientele dancing to the most incredible dances that you can find, but you saw Marlon Brando there. You saw him playing bongos with Tito Puente."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 32, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, you saw things in the '50s you wouldn't believe."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 33, "text": "I want to play one of your classic recordings. I want to play \"Puerto Rico.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then the mambo with Tito Puente, again, and Tito Rodriguez and Machito, these were great orchestras that the Jewish clientele followed. On Friday, then Saturday, the Palladium was more Hispanic, a"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 34, "text": "Did you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I love it. We just did that in Puerto Rico just now."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 35, "text": "Well, let me play an early recording of it. And this is my guest, Eddie Palmieri, his band. He's featured, of course, on piano.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 36, "text": "What stage were you at when you recorded that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing in Spanish)."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 37, "text": "In Latin music, there's a lot of repetition that the piano plays. Is that called montuno?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I was in quite an incredible stage, always with the economical pressures around you. But I found myself in Puerto Rico walking on the beach and looking at that beautiful ocean. And that's what the"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 38, "text": "I want to play something from your new album, \"Palmas.\" And you have a piece on here called \"Bolero Dos.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing in Spanish)."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 39, "text": "And it opens with an extended piano solo. There's no rhythm behind you in this piano solo.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 40, "text": "Which is very unusual in Latin music. I mean, the rhythm never stops in Latin music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 41, "text": "Now, why do you go for that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I've always done that since \"The Sun Of Latin Music\" that won the first Grammy, just piano alone."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 42, "text": "Well, let's hear the beginning of \"Bolero Dos.\" This is Eddie Palmieri on piano.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I mentioned that before is I love variations of a theme. And I know exactly what's going to come behind me. But it's such a beautiful melody that why not play with the, you know, piano first? And "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 43, "text": "We could hear you growl on that song", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I mentioned that before is I love variations of a theme. And I know exactly what's going to come behind me. But it's such a beautiful melody that why not play with the, you know, piano first? And "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 44, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I mentioned that before is I love variations of a theme. And I know exactly what's going to come behind me. But it's such a beautiful melody that why not play with the, you know, piano first? And "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 45, "text": "How did you start growling like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 46, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, let me tell you what happened. My first recording, you know, we started to record years ago. First recording, Alegre. And all of a sudden, I see the owner walking with the engineer. And he walks"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 47, "text": "Were you aware of the fact that you growled before the engineer mentioned it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495576", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "Ismael Quintana", "title": "Remembering\u00a0pianist and jazz master Eddie Palmieri", "question_index": 48, "text": "Eddie Palmieri, a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "? But it's just, you know, it's that inner, you know, that spirit inside. And it gives me, like, some kind of an ambience for myself when I play, and it helps. And I just can't help it. It's just me."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495577", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "George Clinton", "title": "Funkmaster George Clinton shares his musical inspirations", "question_index": 0, "text": "George Clinton, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Atomic Dog. Atomic Dog. Life on all fours. When they're out there walking the streets. May compete, oh, the dog in you. Bow-wow-wow, yippie-yo, yippie-yay, bow-wow, yippie-yo, yippie-yay. Bo"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495577", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "George Clinton", "title": "Funkmaster George Clinton shares his musical inspirations", "question_index": 1, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Woof. Woof. Woof."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495577", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "George Clinton", "title": "Funkmaster George Clinton shares his musical inspirations", "question_index": 2, "text": "OK. What got you back in the studios and on the road after five years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I just got deflead and got the ticks off me. I got my doggie bag, and I'm going to go get my rabies shots, and I'll be ready for it. How you doing, baby?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495577", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "George Clinton", "title": "Funkmaster George Clinton shares his musical inspirations", "question_index": 3, "text": "Well, I want to play the first hit that you had back when your group was called the Parliaments.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I got tired of laying up being an old dog and not learning new tricks, so I said, let me get back out there, 'cause, you know, when rap started getting heavy like it is now, I said, that's an old "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495577", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "George Clinton", "title": "Funkmaster George Clinton shares his musical inspirations", "question_index": 4, "text": "Well, here it is - George Clinton's first hit back from 1967, \"I Just Want To Testify\" (ph).", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God. Oh luscious. You know, that was a big record in Detroit. That record broke right here in Detroit. I was back at the barber shop and give it up for a minute."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495577", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "George Clinton", "title": "Funkmaster George Clinton shares his musical inspirations", "question_index": 5, "text": "From 1967, that's George Clinton, The Parliaments.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Friends, inquisitive friends are asking me what's come over me. A change. There's been a change. And it's oh so plain to see. Love just walked in on me, and it's taken me by surprise. Happin"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495577", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "George Clinton", "title": "Funkmaster George Clinton shares his musical inspirations", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yeah, it sounds really good. You were saying that when that record was a hit, you were working for Joe Bett, the publishing company of Motown Records. I once read you say that there was a lot you didn't like about Motown. You didn't like the idea of everybody in the group dressing alike and doing the same step.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It sounds good to hear that again."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495577", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "George Clinton", "title": "Funkmaster George Clinton shares his musical inspirations", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, not that we didn't like it. We loved it. But we just couldn't see ourselves overcoming The Temptations or The Pips. First of all, The Temptations was from here, and the criteria for, you know, a"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495577", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "George Clinton", "title": "Funkmaster George Clinton shares his musical inspirations", "question_index": 8, "text": "How did you start moving from singing to also producing and doing these really far-out rhythm tracks? I know you were always producing. You produced The Parliaments' records, but it really became, like, a specialty of yours.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, and it became just a big joke at first. But the music was always, like, very soulful, churchy, you know, like \"Maggot Brain,\" psychedelic, you know, nobody had seen Black groups doing psyche"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495577", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "George Clinton", "title": "Funkmaster George Clinton shares his musical inspirations", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well, you not only have a lot of different bands that you've created and produced, you also have different alter egos that you've performed under, like Dr. Funkenstein.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, after I realized that it was going to take more than one group to survive and - you know, and make it, any one group could be stopped any kind of ways or just be stopped 'cause they're not good "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495577", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "George Clinton", "title": "Funkmaster George Clinton shares his musical inspirations", "question_index": 10, "text": "Would you describe one of your alter egos for listeners who haven't seen you perform?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Dr. Funkenstein, Mr. Wiggles, Sir Nose."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5495577", "date": "2025-08-08", "guest": "George Clinton", "title": "Funkmaster George Clinton shares his musical inspirations", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK. Well, Sir Nose. You know, I would never dance. I shall never dance. Nobody can make me dance. I don't even make love. That voice, you know, harmonize on it and made it real high. But the voice was"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5496256", "date": "2025-08-13", "guest": "Charley Crockett", "title": "Musician Charley Crockett blends R&B with cowboy songs and outlaw ballads", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Charley Crockett, is a songwriter, singer and guitarist whose music ranges from country to rhythm and blues, cowboy songs, outlaw ballads and the song \"Bei Mir Bist Du Schoen.\" Now, I don't know exactly where that song fits in, but his version is so much fun. I'm definitely playing it later in the interview. If I had to choose one word to sum up his music, it would be Americana because I'd be backed up by the Americana Music Awards. He won emerging artist of the year in 2021, and two years later, he was nominated for artist of the year, album of the year and song of the year. This year, he was nominated for a Grammy. He learned to perform while busking on the streets, including in New Orleans, Dallas, Paris, Copenhagen and on the New York City subways. And those passengers can be a tough crowd to win over. That was during a period when he was pretty much broke and crashed in squats and other people's homes. Crockett grew up poor in a Texas trailer park. His new album, \"Dollar A Day,\" was released last week. It's the second album in his Sagebrush Trilogy. The first, \"Lonesome Drifter,\" was released earlier this year. He's on tour now. At the end of August, he'll begin a tour with Leon Bridges that's billed as The Crooner & The Cowboy. Let's start with a song from the new album \"Dollar A Day.\" The song is an outlaw ballad called \"Santa Fe Ring.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5496256", "date": "2025-08-13", "guest": "Charley Crockett", "title": "Musician Charley Crockett blends R&B with cowboy songs and outlaw ballads", "question_index": 1, "text": "That was \"Santa Fe Ring\" from Charley Crockett's new album, \"Dollar A Day.\" Charley Crockett, welcome to FRESH AIR. Such a pleasure to have you on the show. And thank you for bringing your guitar with you and singing for us soon. So let's start with \"Santa Fe Ring.\" What do you love about outlaw ballads?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) They sold me out to the Santa Fe Ring. There wasn't any trial, where justice was no such thing. Up on Sierra Hermosa, only the strongest last. But they'll never catch me. I'm too fast. They "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5496256", "date": "2025-08-13", "guest": "Charley Crockett", "title": "Musician Charley Crockett blends R&B with cowboy songs and outlaw ballads", "question_index": 2, "text": "Are you really running from anyone?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then we take a picture."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5496256", "date": "2025-08-13", "guest": "Charley Crockett", "title": "Musician Charley Crockett blends R&B with cowboy songs and outlaw ballads", "question_index": 3, "text": "So you wrote the song, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I've been accused of that, but I always feel that I am running, but I like to think that I'm running towards something, not away from anything."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5496256", "date": "2025-08-13", "guest": "Charley Crockett", "title": "Musician Charley Crockett blends R&B with cowboy songs and outlaw ballads", "question_index": 4, "text": "How did you come up with the story? 'Cause good outlaw ballads need a good story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I did."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5496256", "date": "2025-08-13", "guest": "Charley Crockett", "title": "Musician Charley Crockett blends R&B with cowboy songs and outlaw ballads", "question_index": 5, "text": "No. I have no idea what it is. Is it a thing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Have you ever heard of the Santa Fe Ring? Do you know..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5496256", "date": "2025-08-13", "guest": "Charley Crockett", "title": "Musician Charley Crockett blends R&B with cowboy songs and outlaw ballads", "question_index": 6, "text": "You play in many different styles. You do cowboy songs, country-western, rhythm and blues. What music were you most exposed to growing up in south Texas? A little bit of everything?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it was a thing. It's historical. The Santa Fe Ring was a loose, shadowy syndicate. Basically, a bunch of landowners fighting over the New Mexico territory in the 19th century. And I remember hea"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5496256", "date": "2025-08-13", "guest": "Charley Crockett", "title": "Musician Charley Crockett blends R&B with cowboy songs and outlaw ballads", "question_index": 7, "text": "He's from where you grew up, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Terry, you know, I wish I could tell you I came out of the womb playing Hank Williams' songs and, you know, could pick up Dylan songs by ear hearing them one time, but I'd just be lying to you. "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5496256", "date": "2025-08-13", "guest": "Charley Crockett", "title": "Musician Charley Crockett blends R&B with cowboy songs and outlaw ballads", "question_index": 8, "text": "Do you want to play a few bars of a Freddy Fender song that influenced you in your formative years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, yeah. We were - so I was born in the Rio Grande Valley, where the Rio Grande River comes out at the Gulf of Mexico, and in the small town of San Benito, Texas, which only reason most peopl"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5496256", "date": "2025-08-13", "guest": "Charley Crockett", "title": "Musician Charley Crockett blends R&B with cowboy songs and outlaw ballads", "question_index": 9, "text": "That's a great song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. I'll just play this right here for you. (Singing) Wasted days and wasted nights I have held you on my mind. Now you don't belong to me. You belong to someone else."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5496256", "date": "2025-08-13", "guest": "Charley Crockett", "title": "Musician Charley Crockett blends R&B with cowboy songs and outlaw ballads", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yes", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it really is. You know, he sold a lot of records, Terry."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5496256", "date": "2025-08-13", "guest": "Charley Crockett", "title": "Musician Charley Crockett blends R&B with cowboy songs and outlaw ballads", "question_index": 11, "text": ". You were self-taught on guitar, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it really is. You know, he sold a lot of records, Terry."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5496256", "date": "2025-08-13", "guest": "Charley Crockett", "title": "Musician Charley Crockett blends R&B with cowboy songs and outlaw ballads", "question_index": 12, "text": "No, no. It's just that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Can you tell?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5496256", "date": "2025-08-13", "guest": "Charley Crockett", "title": "Musician Charley Crockett blends R&B with cowboy songs and outlaw ballads", "question_index": 13, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm just fooling you."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5496256", "date": "2025-08-13", "guest": "Charley Crockett", "title": "Musician Charley Crockett blends R&B with cowboy songs and outlaw ballads", "question_index": 14, "text": "I just always wonder, like, how people can teach themselves. I'm wondering, like, if you developed unusual habits not having a teacher, and if you had to, like, unlearn things in order to have the technique that you needed to do what you wanted to do.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know you can."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5496256", "date": "2025-08-13", "guest": "Charley Crockett", "title": "Musician Charley Crockett blends R&B with cowboy songs and outlaw ballads", "question_index": 15, "text": "Can you play us a song where you use the chord progression that you just played for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, it wouldn't be a secret to anybody that knew me well, when I was a kid, I really struggled in school. And when I got a guitar, when I was trying to learn the straight-ahead chords or maybe"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5496256", "date": "2025-08-13", "guest": "Charley Crockett", "title": "Musician Charley Crockett blends R&B with cowboy songs and outlaw ballads", "question_index": 16, "text": "I think it's funny that you started...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Let me think about that for... (Singing) Thirteen diamonds round my neck. One silver eagle on my chest. Been trying to find a wild ace, but I still ain't seen one yet. Lone Star is a man, one no"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5496256", "date": "2025-08-13", "guest": "Charley Crockett", "title": "Musician Charley Crockett blends R&B with cowboy songs and outlaw ballads", "question_index": 17, "text": "...Teaching yourself the complicated chords instead of the easy ones.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5496256", "date": "2025-08-13", "guest": "Charley Crockett", "title": "Musician Charley Crockett blends R&B with cowboy songs and outlaw ballads", "question_index": 18, "text": "Yeah. Look - well, those are darker chords, too. I mean, they're more interesting chords, I think.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I'm sure there's a lot to know about me by that statement there."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5496256", "date": "2025-08-13", "guest": "Charley Crockett", "title": "Musician Charley Crockett blends R&B with cowboy songs and outlaw ballads", "question_index": 19, "text": "We have to take a short break here. So we'll be back with Charley Crockett, more music and conversation after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I - you know, I like playing in the - yeah, I like playing in the dark keys. I like playing in the minor keys. People always say I sound flat when I sing, so I figured I'd go ahead and, you know"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5496256", "date": "2025-08-13", "guest": "Charley Crockett", "title": "Musician Charley Crockett blends R&B with cowboy songs and outlaw ballads", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Charley Crockett, who also brought his guitar and has been singing and playing for us. His new album is called \"Dollar A Day.\" You learned to perform on the streets, busking in some very noncowboy territory like the New York City subways. I grew up in Brooklyn, New York, and would love to hear about when you played in the subways, in the stations and on the trains. What did you learn about how to get the attention of people who just wanted to catch a train and not be bothered?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I - you know, I like playing in the - yeah, I like playing in the dark keys. I like playing in the minor keys. People always say I sound flat when I sing, so I figured I'd go ahead and, you know"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5496256", "date": "2025-08-13", "guest": "Charley Crockett", "title": "Musician Charley Crockett blends R&B with cowboy songs and outlaw ballads", "question_index": 21, "text": "But on the trains - like, you played the stations, but you also played on the subway cars. Those cars shake a lot. And I don't even know - like, if you're playing, you're probably standing up. It's hard to stand up without holding on to a pole, which you can't do if you need two hands to play guitar. So can you talk a little bit about what it's like to play guitar on a moving train and what material actually got people to pay some attention, as opposed to seeing you as a nuisance?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Lord have mercy. First place I played outside in New York City was Central Park. And there were all these incredible musicians who had already figured out where all the money was, and I wasn't any kin"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5496256", "date": "2025-08-13", "guest": "Charley Crockett", "title": "Musician Charley Crockett blends R&B with cowboy songs and outlaw ballads", "question_index": 22, "text": "Yeah. So play a little bit of that for us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, some people still do. Keep in mind, I wasn't in New York constantly. You know, we'd - we would move. And it was pretty ideal to move down to New Orleans, you know, when it was cold. It was"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5496256", "date": "2025-08-13", "guest": "Charley Crockett", "title": "Musician Charley Crockett blends R&B with cowboy songs and outlaw ballads", "question_index": 23, "text": "That's a great song. Well, I'm going to switch up the musical mood and play something from your new album that's more rhythm and blues.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Strumming guitar, singing) I'm just driving nails in my coffin every time I drink me a bottle of booze. I'm just driving nails in my coffin, Honey, driving these nails over you. I don't do it too muc"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5496256", "date": "2025-08-13", "guest": "Charley Crockett", "title": "Musician Charley Crockett blends R&B with cowboy songs and outlaw ballads", "question_index": 24, "text": "It's called \"Destroyed,\" and it was written by Dan Penn and Spooner Oldham. And do you want to say why you chose this for the album?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5496256", "date": "2025-08-13", "guest": "Charley Crockett", "title": "Musician Charley Crockett blends R&B with cowboy songs and outlaw ballads", "question_index": 25, "text": "Fame at the studio where he worked.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had found out about Dan Penn years back, but he's a Memphis guy. And, you know what I was really struck by is I thought he was a Black man when I first heard his songs. And, honestly, I couldn't bel"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5496256", "date": "2025-08-13", "guest": "Charley Crockett", "title": "Musician Charley Crockett blends R&B with cowboy songs and outlaw ballads", "question_index": 26, "text": "It came out good. So let's hear it. This is \"Destroyed\" from my guest Charley Crockett's new album, \"Dollar A Day.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Anyways, I found \"Destroyed,\" and I thought, Man, how is this not a hit, you know? I guess when you're as prolific a writer as he is, you know, they can't all be hits. So I "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5496256", "date": "2025-08-13", "guest": "Charley Crockett", "title": "Musician Charley Crockett blends R&B with cowboy songs and outlaw ballads", "question_index": 27, "text": "That was \"Destroyed\" from my guest Charley Crockett's new album \"Dollar A Day.\" We need to take another break here, so let me reintroduce you. My guest is Charley Crockett, and he's got a new album, which is called \"Dollar A Day.\" We'll be right back with more of Charley Crockett and more of his music after this break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I'm weak as a lamb and my head's spinnin' like a top. Oh, what a kiss. It felt like an H-bomb dropped. Destroyed, ooh-wee, baby. Destroyed, you got me, baby. Your good lovin', girl, has real"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5496256", "date": "2025-08-13", "guest": "Charley Crockett", "title": "Musician Charley Crockett blends R&B with cowboy songs and outlaw ballads", "question_index": 28, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with songwriter, singer and guitarist Charley Crockett. His music ranges from country to rhythm and blues, cowboy songs and outlaw ballads. He's won an Americana Music Award and has been nominated for three others, and was nominated for a Grammy this year. His new album, \"Dollar A Day,\" is the second part of his \"Sagebrush Trilogy\" of albums. The first, \"Lonesome Drifter,\" was released earlier this year. Your first album was self-released. It was called \"Stolen Jewel,\" and it has one of my favorite of your recordings because it's just delightful. And your music is usually pretty dark, which I gravitate to, but this is just delightful. The song is \"Bei Mir Bist Du Schoen.\" Not a cowboy song - it's a song from a 1930s Yiddish musical. And Sammy Cahn and Saul Chaplin, who wrote a lot of, like, songs for movies, and Sammy Cahn wrote a lot of lyrics for Sinatra - they took this Yiddish song, wrote an English lyric for it and made it a little more pop-jazzy than it probably initially was. And you turned it into this kind of swing song. Just say a little bit about how - like, what you wanted to do with this song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Blew into Austin from Denver yesterday. Got word my manager didn't wanna stay. Ain't that right? Ain't that right? Ain't that right? Ain't that right?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5496256", "date": "2025-08-13", "guest": "Charley Crockett", "title": "Musician Charley Crockett blends R&B with cowboy songs and outlaw ballads", "question_index": 29, "text": "In New Orleans? That's not the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's another one that I picked up in that river of bourbon whiskey flowing through the French Quarter."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5496256", "date": "2025-08-13", "guest": "Charley Crockett", "title": "Musician Charley Crockett blends R&B with cowboy songs and outlaw ballads", "question_index": 30, "text": "It's not the place I'd expect you to find a song that was originally a Yiddish song. It was a hit for The Andrews Sisters.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's the most..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5496256", "date": "2025-08-13", "guest": "Charley Crockett", "title": "Musician Charley Crockett blends R&B with cowboy songs and outlaw ballads", "question_index": 31, "text": "All right. Let's hear why. This is \"Bei Mir Bist Du Schoen\" from Charley Crockett's first album, the album called \"Stolen Jewel.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I heard that song getting played by different bands. I'd hear them out on the street on Royal. And then one night, I was in the Spotted Cat on Frenchmen and the little - the band on the little - on th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5496256", "date": "2025-08-13", "guest": "Charley Crockett", "title": "Musician Charley Crockett blends R&B with cowboy songs and outlaw ballads", "question_index": 32, "text": "That was \"Bei Mir Bist Du Schoen\" from Charley Crockett's first album, which is called \"Stolen Jewel.\" His new album is called \"Dollar A Day.\" I'm going to ask you to do another song. And the song is from your \"Lonesome Drifter\" album, the first in your \"Sagebrush Trilogy,\" and it's \"This Crazy Life.\" Would you sing that for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One, two, a-one, two, three, four. (Singing) Bei mir bist du schoen. Please let me explain. Bei mir bist du schoen, means that you're grand. Bei mir bist du schoen. Again, I'll explain. It means that "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5496256", "date": "2025-08-13", "guest": "Charley Crockett", "title": "Musician Charley Crockett blends R&B with cowboy songs and outlaw ballads", "question_index": 33, "text": "Thank you. That's Charley Crockett singing for us. That sounded really good. Speaking of crazy life, you had heart surgery about six years ago. What was wrong, and how did you know you were in trouble?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd be delighted. (Singing) The more I think about it, the less I'm really sure that I know just what I'm doing any of this for. But I hold myself together for all the things I love. I will try to mak"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5496256", "date": "2025-08-13", "guest": "Charley Crockett", "title": "Musician Charley Crockett blends R&B with cowboy songs and outlaw ballads", "question_index": 34, "text": "So you needed surgery, and you got a valve transplant. Is that what you got?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh. Yeah, I was born down there in Cameron County, southernmost county in Texas. And, you know, I don't think they knew a whole lot. You'd be surprised how little they even knew about a lot of things "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5496256", "date": "2025-08-13", "guest": "Charley Crockett", "title": "Musician Charley Crockett blends R&B with cowboy songs and outlaw ballads", "question_index": 35, "text": "As opposed to a pig valve.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. They wanted to put a mechanical valve in there, and that's all they offered me, actually, at first."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5496256", "date": "2025-08-13", "guest": "Charley Crockett", "title": "Musician Charley Crockett blends R&B with cowboy songs and outlaw ballads", "question_index": 36, "text": "But you ended up with a pig valve, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They didn't tell me anything."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5496256", "date": "2025-08-13", "guest": "Charley Crockett", "title": "Musician Charley Crockett blends R&B with cowboy songs and outlaw ballads", "question_index": 37, "text": "Not a pig.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not a pig valve."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5496256", "date": "2025-08-13", "guest": "Charley Crockett", "title": "Musician Charley Crockett blends R&B with cowboy songs and outlaw ballads", "question_index": 38, "text": "A cow. Oh, I didn't know they do cows. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I ended up with a cow valve."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5496256", "date": "2025-08-13", "guest": "Charley Crockett", "title": "Musician Charley Crockett blends R&B with cowboy songs and outlaw ballads", "question_index": 39, "text": "That's funny and true, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Does that not make me a cowboy?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5496256", "date": "2025-08-13", "guest": "Charley Crockett", "title": "Musician Charley Crockett blends R&B with cowboy songs and outlaw ballads", "question_index": 40, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's true."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5496256", "date": "2025-08-13", "guest": "Charley Crockett", "title": "Musician Charley Crockett blends R&B with cowboy songs and outlaw ballads", "question_index": 41, "text": "A different kind of cowboy. Charley Crockett, thank you so much for singing and playing for us and for talking with us about your life. I wish you good luck on the tour with Leon Bridges, and I wish you good health.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm literally part cow."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5496256", "date": "2025-08-13", "guest": "Charley Crockett", "title": "Musician Charley Crockett blends R&B with cowboy songs and outlaw ballads", "question_index": 42, "text": "Charley Crockett has a new album called \"Dollar A Day.\" His tour with Leon Bridges begins August 26. The popular movie \"Alien\" now has a prequel in the form of a new TV series called \"Alien: Earth.\" It just premiered on FX and is streaming on Hulu. Our TV critic David Bianculli will tell us what he thinks of it after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hey, I appreciate that, Miss Terry. I'm going to put that in my pocket."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5502436", "date": "2025-08-15", "guest": "Sheila Jordan", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Sheila Jordan", "question_index": 0, "text": "Pretty early on in your singing, I think you got turned on to Charlie Parker's music and got to meet him and sing with him, too, I believe.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) If you could see me now, you'd know how blue I've been. One look is all you'd need to know the mood I'm in. Perhaps then you'd realize I'm still in love with you. If you could see me now, yo"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5502436", "date": "2025-08-15", "guest": "Sheila Jordan", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Sheila Jordan", "question_index": 1, "text": "What do you mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I did. I sat in a lot with Bird. I met Bird in Detroit when I was a teenager. I moved from Pennsylvania with my grandmother and went to live with my mother for the three years or four years of hi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5502436", "date": "2025-08-15", "guest": "Sheila Jordan", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Sheila Jordan", "question_index": 2, "text": "What was your way of interpreting what Parker was doing with - sworn into a vocal style?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was very prejudiced. And here I am, a young white girl trying to get to this music. So in order to get to that music - it was in Black neighborhoods, and the police were very rough. I mean, w"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5502436", "date": "2025-08-15", "guest": "Sheila Jordan", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Sheila Jordan", "question_index": 3, "text": "You came to New York 31 years ago, about 30, 31 years ago.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I started out singing with two young Black guys who wrote a lot of words to Bird hits, and I wanted to be part of their trio. I wanted to sing with them, and they accepted me. And we used to reh"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5502436", "date": "2025-08-15", "guest": "Sheila Jordan", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Sheila Jordan", "question_index": 4, "text": "'52?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, 1952."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5502436", "date": "2025-08-15", "guest": "Sheila Jordan", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Sheila Jordan", "question_index": 5, "text": "What are some of the differences in the jazz scene in New York when you came and now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Uh-huh."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5502436", "date": "2025-08-15", "guest": "Sheila Jordan", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Sheila Jordan", "question_index": 6, "text": "When you were in Detroit and you were listening to Parker, he would invite you - and in New York, too, he would frequently invite you to sit in....", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Playing bass)."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5502436", "date": "2025-08-15", "guest": "Sheila Jordan", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Sheila Jordan", "question_index": 7, "text": "...With the band. It occurs to me that really a lot of the beboppers didn't have nearly as much respect for singers as they did for instrumentalists. Was that not the case with Parker?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5502436", "date": "2025-08-15", "guest": "Sheila Jordan", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Sheila Jordan", "question_index": 8, "text": "Turns into what?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "With Bird, it wasn't the case, no. He was very, very open. And, you know, sometimes, saying that I sat in with him sometimes turns into worked with him, which has never been true, you know?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5502436", "date": "2025-08-15", "guest": "Sheila Jordan", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Sheila Jordan", "question_index": 9, "text": "Oh, oh, oh, I see what you mean. Yeah, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Worked with him."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5502436", "date": "2025-08-15", "guest": "Sheila Jordan", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Sheila Jordan", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know? Like - yeah, they get that, you know, that sort..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5502436", "date": "2025-08-15", "guest": "Sheila Jordan", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Sheila Jordan", "question_index": 11, "text": "But did you feel you were up against that, the idea that a lot of the musicians didn't take singers as seriously as they took people who could play piano or bass or tenor?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Of thing all turned around, which is not true. No, he was very, very supportive to me."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5502436", "date": "2025-08-15", "guest": "Sheila Jordan", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Sheila Jordan", "question_index": 12, "text": "I remember when I first found out that you had been working day job for years...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think maybe a little bit in Detroit at first because everybody was out there trying to do his thing, and it got a little bit like that. But I must say that the jazz musicians have been wonderful wit"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5502436", "date": "2025-08-15", "guest": "Sheila Jordan", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Sheila Jordan", "question_index": 13, "text": "...In an advertising agency.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5502436", "date": "2025-08-15", "guest": "Sheila Jordan", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Sheila Jordan", "question_index": 14, "text": "Yeah, I thought, like, how could this be possible? How could this singer possibly be spending her days typing? But for years, up until earlier this year, that's how you primarily made a living. Why did you have to do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All my life."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5502436", "date": "2025-08-15", "guest": "Sheila Jordan", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Sheila Jordan", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well, a funny thing happened earlier this year. You were laid off", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, because I couldn't sing the music that I wanted to sing. And I really wanted to keep the music that - the way I sing pure, and I didn't want to have to go out and hassle gigs that were weddings "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5502436", "date": "2025-08-15", "guest": "Sheila Jordan", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Sheila Jordan", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, because I couldn't sing the music that I wanted to sing. And I really wanted to keep the music that - the way I sing pure, and I didn't want to have to go out and hassle gigs that were weddings "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5502436", "date": "2025-08-15", "guest": "Sheila Jordan", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Sheila Jordan", "question_index": 17, "text": "Well, this has freed up time for you to do more concerts.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was laid off. I was devastated, but I prayed that I would - hey, now that I'm almost 60, please let me sing more. And then, one day, I was called in after 21 years at this particular place and told,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5502436", "date": "2025-08-15", "guest": "Sheila Jordan", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Sheila Jordan", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's fantastic. I don't know how I ever did it before."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5511161", "date": "2025-08-22", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "Remembering British actor Terence Stamp", "question_index": 0, "text": "Is it ever embarrassing when it really is passion?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it can be either, you know? It can be absolutely acting, and it can be absolute passion. I think the great Warren Beatty once said that the way to get stars in a movie is to find out who wants t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5511161", "date": "2025-08-22", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "Remembering British actor Terence Stamp", "question_index": 1, "text": "Do you think you could tell the difference on screen between relationships on screen that are just acting and relationships on screen where there really is some passion beyond the acting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's never passion-passion because, you know - because everybody's there. It's like - you'd have to be a real exhibitionist to get real passion - I mean, actual passion. But I think you have a g"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5511161", "date": "2025-08-22", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "Remembering British actor Terence Stamp", "question_index": 2, "text": "Yes, that's right. Exactly, right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think so. I don't think so. I mean - well, you're talking about good actors, right?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5511161", "date": "2025-08-22", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "Remembering British actor Terence Stamp", "question_index": 3, "text": "Exactly, exactly. I'd like to do, like, a film retrospective with you. So let's go back to your very first movie, \"Billy Budd.\" This was made in 1962. It's based on the Herman Melville story. You play a teenager who's impressed to serve on a British ship during war with France. And you're the epitome of decency and goodness, whereas the master-at-arms is a sadist and very villainous. After he sets you up to take a fall for a crime you're innocent of, you try to defend yourself verbally, but your speech impediment prevents that. You have something of a stammer. You punch him. He dies from a head wound when he hits the ground, and then you're court-martialed. This was your first role in a movie, and it's the leading role in a prestigious film. You must have had to learn a lot on camera.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "With bad actors, you can't tell anything. So..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5511161", "date": "2025-08-22", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "Remembering British actor Terence Stamp", "question_index": 4, "text": "How old were you when you made \"Billy Budd\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I did, and I didn't. In fact, as two young, out-of-work actors, I was sharing digs with Michael Caine. And although Michael Caine wasn't known - you know, he hadn't been just discovered; he was "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5511161", "date": "2025-08-22", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "Remembering British actor Terence Stamp", "question_index": 5, "text": "Was acting a far-fetched ambition from someone from your neighborhood?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had my 21st birthday during the movie."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5511161", "date": "2025-08-22", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "Remembering British actor Terence Stamp", "question_index": 6, "text": "Now, you said that you grew up in a very Cockney neighborhood. So did you have a Cockney accent when you started to act?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actor Terence Stamp talking with Terry Gross in 2002. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2002 interview with British actor Terence Stamp, who died Sund"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5511161", "date": "2025-08-22", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "Remembering British actor Terence Stamp", "question_index": 7, "text": "You write a little bit about your accents in one of your memoirs. And you say that you convinced yourself that since you had a natural ear and could pick up accents easily, instead of learning to speak proper English, you would just treat English roles - standard English roles - as a dialect and, you know, just learn it for those roles. Did that strategy work out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure. I mean, when I finally realized that I would have to go to drama school, you know, to get my foot in the door, I'd - you know, in those days it wasn't like today, where if you could lift a l"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5511161", "date": "2025-08-22", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "Remembering British actor Terence Stamp", "question_index": 8, "text": "So what did you do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It worked out. Yes, it worked out. I mean, it worked out for sort of 20 years. But eventually, you know, I had to sort of - and the thing was, I think looking back, it was something to do with a loss "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5511161", "date": "2025-08-22", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "Remembering British actor Terence Stamp", "question_index": 9, "text": "I want to play a scene from your movie \"The Limey,\" and this is a pretty recent film. And in this film, you play a working-class guy who's just gotten out of prison in England. And you've come to California to avenge the murder of your daughter. You think she was murdered by a record executive who made his fortune in the 1960s. He's played by Peter Fonda. Anyways, in this scene, you're talking to a Drug Enforcement Agency agent, who you think has some clues about where to find this record executive you're looking for. And you're talking to him in this really thick cockney accent. It's not the way you speak in the rest of the movie. It's just something you're putting on for him in this scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I just - I had always been interested in breath. One of the things that I'd learned at drama school was this thing called the full breath and speaking on support, you know, which we all had to l"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5511161", "date": "2025-08-22", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "Remembering British actor Terence Stamp", "question_index": 10, "text": "Terence Stamp in a scene from \"The Limey.\" Terence Stamp, did you ever talk that way", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Wilson) How you doing, then? All right, are you? Now, look, squire; you're the governor here. I can see that. I'm on your manor now. So there's no need to get your knickers in a twist. Whatever th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5511161", "date": "2025-08-22", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "Remembering British actor Terence Stamp", "question_index": 11, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Wilson) How you doing, then? All right, are you? Now, look, squire; you're the governor here. I can see that. I'm on your manor now. So there's no need to get your knickers in a twist. Whatever th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5511161", "date": "2025-08-22", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "Remembering British actor Terence Stamp", "question_index": 12, "text": "Now, were you starting to act in a time when it was becoming more acceptable, more possible for working-class actors who didn't speak received English to - or received pronunciation, whatever it's called - to get started? You know, was it more acceptable to talk like you did and still be on the stage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I didn't really. Well, I may have. But when I was working on it - that was really how my dad spoke and how my uncle spoke. And strangely enough, in England, I got a lot of stick for that. You know"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5511161", "date": "2025-08-22", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "Remembering British actor Terence Stamp", "question_index": 13, "text": "And were you cast in any of those plays?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think more than more acceptable. It was actually something that was needed because what had happened in England was that they had passed a bill - a politician called Rab Butler had passed a bill whe"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5511161", "date": "2025-08-22", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "Remembering British actor Terence Stamp", "question_index": 14, "text": "You started to become very well-known in the '60s. And in fact, you became kind of a symbol of London in the '60s. In Shawn Levy's new book about London in the '60s, he writes that you were among the swingingest of young Londoners - handsome, stylish and always up for some wild scene.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University. Let's get back to Terry's 2002 interview with British actor Terence Stamp. He died Sunday at the age of 87."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5511161", "date": "2025-08-22", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "Remembering British actor Terence Stamp", "question_index": 15, "text": "What was it like to become known in the '60s when everything from the class system to sexual mores was loosening up?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, professor of television studies at Rowan University. Let's get back to Terry's 2002 interview with British actor Terence Stamp. He died Sunday at the age of 87."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5511161", "date": "2025-08-22", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "Remembering British actor Terence Stamp", "question_index": 16, "text": "Now, it's said that you and Julie Christie, who were a couple for a while, are the Terry and Julie in the Kinks' song \"Waterloo Sunset.\" Is that accurate?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it was the best time and place a boy could be, really. It was like after the pill and before AIDS, you know? So it was an extraordinary release. And I think that we felt it particularly "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5511161", "date": "2025-08-22", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "Remembering British actor Terence Stamp", "question_index": 17, "text": "We were talking about your voice and how you used to have a Cockney accent and how you learned to speak differently for movies and theatre. I want to play a scene from your movie, \"Priscilla, Queen Of The Desert.\" This is a 1994 Australian comedy in which you played a transsexual who has an act with two drag queens in which you lip sync and dance to disco hits. And in this scene, you're in the dressing room with the two drag queens. You're all putting on makeup. And this is shortly after you've fallen on your head in shock upon learning that one of the drag queens in your act not only used to be married, but he has a son.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's absolutely true. Ray Davis actually told my brother Chris that. My brother Chris discovered The Who and, you know, with his partner, Kit Lambert, made them, I think, into the great group "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5511161", "date": "2025-08-22", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "Remembering British actor Terence Stamp", "question_index": 18, "text": "That's Terence Stamp in a scene from \"Priscilla, Queen Of The Desert.\" Now, one of the things I find really interesting about your performance in that movie is that you didn't really change your voice. You changed the kind of language that you use and the way you'd speak, but you don't try to make your voice higher in it, even though you're playing a transsexual. Tell us why you didn't do that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Bernadette) Well, it better be."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5511161", "date": "2025-08-22", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "Remembering British actor Terence Stamp", "question_index": 19, "text": "And look at how, say, Lauren Bacall's voice deepened as she got older", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, during the - you know, during the time I was sort of researching the role, I was getting introduced to actual transsexuals - you know, guys who had actually been sort of - tried to change themse"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5511161", "date": "2025-08-22", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "Remembering British actor Terence Stamp", "question_index": 20, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, during the - you know, during the time I was sort of researching the role, I was getting introduced to actual transsexuals - you know, guys who had actually been sort of - tried to change themse"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5511161", "date": "2025-08-22", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "Remembering British actor Terence Stamp", "question_index": 21, "text": "What surprised you most by how you looked as a woman with a long blond wig and makeup and, you know, women's clothes, heels?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5511161", "date": "2025-08-22", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "Remembering British actor Terence Stamp", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was rather - I have to say first out that, you know, when I saw the movie, I was, like, bitterly disappointed."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5511161", "date": "2025-08-22", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "Remembering British actor Terence Stamp", "question_index": 23, "text": "Because you wanted to look like a beautiful woman.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had understood - I had been led to believe that, you know, the camera man was making me look like Lauren Bacall and Princess Diana and Candy Bergen, you know? And so I'd given - been given the perfo"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5511161", "date": "2025-08-22", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "Remembering British actor Terence Stamp", "question_index": 24, "text": "Did that work for you when you started to see it that way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I was real - that's what I was - exactly. I was choosing - earring, oh, I see Michelle Pfeiffer wear those. I can wear those, you know? I mean, I was, like - I was really into it. And I said to "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5511161", "date": "2025-08-22", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "Remembering British actor Terence Stamp", "question_index": 25, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, I always hated it. I always thought it was a lost opportunity to be a babe."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5511161", "date": "2025-08-22", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "Remembering British actor Terence Stamp", "question_index": 26, "text": "Now, Maureen Dowd had a New York Times Magazine article with you after \"Priscilla\" was released. And in that article, you say that you used to have this fear of looking stupid on screen and that that used to hold you back. But after \"Priscilla,\" you stopped worrying about that. Accurate?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview with British actor Terence Stamp, who died Sunday at age 87. When we left off, they were talking about his role as Bernadette in the 1994 film \"T"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5511161", "date": "2025-08-22", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "Remembering British actor Terence Stamp", "question_index": 27, "text": "I want to say I might - that's basically what she says you said.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I hate to contradict the lovely Maureen Dowd. The way in which I - what I felt about that was that I didn't know that I had this fear of looking stupid. It was a kind of - I was tethered by it, "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5511161", "date": "2025-08-22", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "Remembering British actor Terence Stamp", "question_index": 28, "text": "And if I misrepresented what she said you said, I apologize for that. But I think she represented what you said very accurately. So can you put your finger on what you did differently after that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK, OK. OK."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5511161", "date": "2025-08-22", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "Remembering British actor Terence Stamp", "question_index": 29, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And in fact, as I was standing there, like, the thoughts that were going through my head were like, what are you doing here, you know? You're the best-dressed man in Britain, you know?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5511161", "date": "2025-08-22", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "Remembering British actor Terence Stamp", "question_index": 30, "text": "Like what?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're a middle-aged man. You were the great Iago of your drama school. You know, you're a scholar and a philosopher, you know? And then suddenly there was, like, playback (vocalizing), and you do it,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5511161", "date": "2025-08-22", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "Remembering British actor Terence Stamp", "question_index": 31, "text": "And you would have had a singing role in that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Because I was frightened. I turned down \"Camelot\" with the wonderful Josh Logan, you know?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5511161", "date": "2025-08-22", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "Remembering British actor Terence Stamp", "question_index": 32, "text": "\"If Ever I Would Leave You,\" is it", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I would have been the king, you know?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5511161", "date": "2025-08-22", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "Remembering British actor Terence Stamp", "question_index": 33, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I would have been the king, you know?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5511161", "date": "2025-08-22", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "Remembering British actor Terence Stamp", "question_index": 34, "text": "That would have been Terence Stamp singing that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he wanted me."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5511161", "date": "2025-08-22", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "Remembering British actor Terence Stamp", "question_index": 35, "text": "Well, you know, you haven't had the most prolific career. You've been making a fair number of movies lately, but there was a period in, I guess, the '70s and part of the '80s when you weren't doing that much and part of what you were doing was international productions. Was that a conscious choice, to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And that was the fear, you know? And it wasn't - I didn't really know it until I had that breakthrough. And I thought, yeah, I turned that down for the wrong reason. You know, I turned it down b"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5511161", "date": "2025-08-22", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "Remembering British actor Terence Stamp", "question_index": 36, "text": "How would you describe the phase of your career you're in now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no. On the contrary. You know, the '60s ended and I ended with them. I was sort of out of work for 10 years, really. And, you know, that was like a tragedy for me, but it was just one of those"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5511161", "date": "2025-08-22", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "Remembering British actor Terence Stamp", "question_index": 37, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "How would I describe..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5511161", "date": "2025-08-22", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "Remembering British actor Terence Stamp", "question_index": 38, "text": "I think one of your greatest performances - and this is, you know, my humble opinion - is in \"The Limey.\" I think you're just so wonderful in that film.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I think I'm a golden oldie now, you know? I think I'm an old master with wisdom and vestiges of sex appeal."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5511161", "date": "2025-08-22", "guest": "Terence Stamp", "title": "Remembering British actor Terence Stamp", "question_index": 39, "text": "Well, Terence Stamp, a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's funny with \"The Limey\" because it was something that - it's to do, I think, with resignation. You know, when you resign yourself to the fact that, you know, you're never going to get another grea"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515417", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Guitarist Scotty Moore recounts playing with Elvis", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I am Terry Gross. It's a FRESH AIR tradition that the week leading into Labor Day, we do a themed series of interviews from our archive. This week's theme is R&B, rockabilly and early rock 'n' roll. I got that idea while listening to a terrific podcast I recommend called \"A History Of Rock Music In 500 Songs.\" While listening to the early episodes about the prehistory and early history of rock, I often found myself thinking, wait, that person is in our archive. Those are the people we'll be hearing from. Later today, we'll hear my interview with one of the pioneers of rockabilly, Carl Perkins, who wrote and made the first recording of \"Blue Suede Shoes.\" After that, Elvis made his hit recording. We begin our series with a guitarist on Elvis' version, Scotty Moore. He played with Elvis from 1954 to 1964. He reunited with Elvis for his 1968 comeback special. As Peter Guralnick, the author of the definitive biography of Elvis, wrote, quote, \"guitar players of every generation since rock began have studied and memorized Scotty's licks, even when Scotty himself couldn't duplicate them,\" unquote. Scotty Moore died in 2016 at the age of 84. We're going to hear the interview I recorded with him in 1997 after the publication of his memoir about his years with Elvis called \"That's Alright, Elvis.\" The title is a reference to Elvis's first single, \"That's All Right,\" which was recorded in 1954 and featured Moore on guitar. It was recorded for Sun Records, the label created and owned by Sam Phillips, who we'll hear from on tomorrow's show. When we spoke, a box set of previously unreleased Elvis tracks had just been released. We started with a previously unreleased take of \"Lawdy Miss Clawdy.\" Listen for Scotty Moore's solo.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515417", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Guitarist Scotty Moore recounts playing with Elvis", "question_index": 1, "text": "Before Scotty Moore recorded with Elvis at Sun Records, Moore recorded at Sun with his own country band, the Starlite Wranglers. That's how he got to know the owner and mastermind of Sun Records, Sam Phillips.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I'm going to take, take my. Oh. (Laugher) Yeah, something like that. (Singing) Well, Lordy, Lordy, Lordy, Ms. Clawdy. Gal, you sure look good to me. Well, please, don't excite me, baby. No, "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515417", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Guitarist Scotty Moore recounts playing with Elvis", "question_index": 2, "text": "Well, when you asked him to come over and do some songs for you, what songs did he sing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But we became just great friends through that connection. And we'd have coffee next door at a little cafe there and just discuss the business in general. You heard so and so and the record they've got"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515417", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Guitarist Scotty Moore recounts playing with Elvis", "question_index": 3, "text": "And did he do them in the style of the singer who had the hit version?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Everything. I mean, he did Billy Eckstine. He did Eddy Arnold. I don't remember a specific song, necessarily. But, I mean, he just knew all these songs."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515417", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Guitarist Scotty Moore recounts playing with Elvis", "question_index": 4, "text": "So musically, you thought he was versatile. But you couldn't tell who he was.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515417", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Guitarist Scotty Moore recounts playing with Elvis", "question_index": 5, "text": "Now, that was a song by Arthur Crudup.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's fair to say. And in fact, after he left that day, I called and relayed that basic information to Sam. I said, you remember you told us to go out and get some original material? And he said, wel"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515417", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Guitarist Scotty Moore recounts playing with Elvis", "question_index": 6, "text": "Did you know the song when he was starting to play it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Crudup, yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515417", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Guitarist Scotty Moore recounts playing with Elvis", "question_index": 7, "text": "So you just started to fill in behind him not knowing the song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I never heard it."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515417", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Guitarist Scotty Moore recounts playing with Elvis", "question_index": 8, "text": "And then Sam Phillips, the head of Sun Records, liked it and asked you to lay it down on tape?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Bill started just slapping the bass. And it sounded pretty good what they're doing, so I started just playing some kind of rhythm thing with them, too."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515417", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Guitarist Scotty Moore recounts playing with Elvis", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well, let's hear the version that was actually released of \"That's All Right.\" Elvis Presley, my guest Scotty Moore on guitar.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he was in the control room, but the door was open when we was doing that. And he came, stuck his head out the door. He said, what are you guys doing? And we said just goofing around, you know? H"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515417", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Guitarist Scotty Moore recounts playing with Elvis", "question_index": 10, "text": "Now, tell me the truth. After you started recording with Elvis, did you think, this guy's a great singer? Or were you thinking, this guy's OK?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Well, that's all right, mama. That's all right for you. That's all right, mama, just any way you do. That's all right, that's all right. That's all right now, mama, any way you do. Well, Mam"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515417", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Guitarist Scotty Moore recounts playing with Elvis", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is - what? - demos that had been made for him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, well, we became more aware after just three records that he liked a challenge. But he was very particular about songs. He had to get into them, feel them good. Now, true, most of the stuff on Sun,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515417", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Guitarist Scotty Moore recounts playing with Elvis", "question_index": 12, "text": "Do you remember one of the songs that was picked out of the demo pile like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Demos, right. And that's the way he did it. And very few times did I ever see him that one he'd kept in the maybe stack and would actually try, that he would then throw it away after he heard it back."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515417", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Guitarist Scotty Moore recounts playing with Elvis", "question_index": 13, "text": "Let me play another record from \"The Sun Sessions,\" and I thought we'd play \"Mystery Train.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515417", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Guitarist Scotty Moore recounts playing with Elvis", "question_index": 14, "text": "Yeah. So tell me a little bit about what you're playing on this and what it was like to record this track. Share some memories about it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hey, good. That's my signature song."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515417", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Guitarist Scotty Moore recounts playing with Elvis", "question_index": 15, "text": "That Junior Parker had recorded before.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a slow R&B song."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515417", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Guitarist Scotty Moore recounts playing with Elvis", "question_index": 16, "text": "OK. Well, this is \"Mystery Train\" - Elvis Presley - my guest, Scotty Moore, on guitar.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That Junior Parker had. Yeah. And we ended up just getting the tempo up more, and I changed the rhythm thing around, and I've always loved it. It's just a fun thing to do."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515417", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Guitarist Scotty Moore recounts playing with Elvis", "question_index": 17, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is guitarist Scotty Moore, who we just heard on \"Mystery Train,\" and he's written a new autobiography called \"That's Alright, Elvis.\" When did you start realizing that Elvis was really catching on in a very emotional way with his fans?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Train I ride, 16 coaches long. Train I ride, 16 coaches long. Well, that long, black train got my baby and gone. Train, train, coming 'round, 'round the bend. Train, train, coming 'round the bend. Wel"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515417", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Guitarist Scotty Moore recounts playing with Elvis", "question_index": 18, "text": "Mm-hmm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would say that after we did the first couple of TV shows with Tommy and Jimmy Dorsey."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515417", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Guitarist Scotty Moore recounts playing with Elvis", "question_index": 19, "text": "We're listening to my 1997 interview with Scotty Moore, Elvis Presley's guitarist from 1954 to '64. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "After we went to RCA, before that, most of our shows and stuff had been all in the Southeast. And there had been some, granted, that - starting to see the hysteria and so forth, but it really didn't c"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515417", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Guitarist Scotty Moore recounts playing with Elvis", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 1997 interview with Scotty Moore, Elvis Presley's guitarist from 1954 to '64.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "After we went to RCA, before that, most of our shows and stuff had been all in the Southeast. And there had been some, granted, that - starting to see the hysteria and so forth, but it really didn't c"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515417", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Guitarist Scotty Moore recounts playing with Elvis", "question_index": 21, "text": "What would you say is your most copied guitar solo from the Elvis Records? Or one of the most?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "After we went to RCA, before that, most of our shows and stuff had been all in the Southeast. And there had been some, granted, that - starting to see the hysteria and so forth, but it really didn't c"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515417", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Guitarist Scotty Moore recounts playing with Elvis", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Probably \"Heartbreak Hotel,\" maybe. I don't know. I mean, I've never been asked that before. Can we do a survey?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515417", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Guitarist Scotty Moore recounts playing with Elvis", "question_index": 23, "text": "Well, why don't we go for \"Heartbreak Hotel?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Write in, folks, and tell me."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515417", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Guitarist Scotty Moore recounts playing with Elvis", "question_index": 24, "text": "Tell me your memories of this session.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515417", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Guitarist Scotty Moore recounts playing with Elvis", "question_index": 25, "text": "Into the mix.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, of course, that was the first one on RCA. They were trying to get basically the same sound that Sam was getting - had gotten with us in Memphis. They had this big, long hallway out in the front "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515417", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Guitarist Scotty Moore recounts playing with Elvis", "question_index": 26, "text": "Right. Now, your solo on \"Heartbreak Hotel,\" is that something you had prepared before the session, or is it something you had worked out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Into the mix. But didn't bury him, like a lot of the rock things, you know, later."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515417", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Guitarist Scotty Moore recounts playing with Elvis", "question_index": 27, "text": "No?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515417", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Guitarist Scotty Moore recounts playing with Elvis", "question_index": 28, "text": "Did you learn the song at the session, or did you know it before that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, everything we ever did was just spur of the moment."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515417", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Guitarist Scotty Moore recounts playing with Elvis", "question_index": 29, "text": "Well, alright. Let's hear it. 1956, \"Heartbreak Hotel.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, learned it at the session."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515417", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Guitarist Scotty Moore recounts playing with Elvis", "question_index": 30, "text": "That's \"Heartbreak Hotel.\" My guest, Scotty Moore, on guitar, and he's written an autobiography, which, of course, includes his years playing guitar with Elvis Presley. It's called \"That's Alright, Elvis.\" When did you stop playing with Elvis, and what was behind stopping?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Well, since my baby left me, well, I found a new place to dwell. Well, it's down at the end of Lonely Street at Heartbreak Hotel where I'll be, I'll be just so lonely, baby, well, I'm so lon"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515417", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Guitarist Scotty Moore recounts playing with Elvis", "question_index": 31, "text": "The TV special where he's wearing the leather jacket...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The - well, actually, the 1968 special, what you now they call the comeback special."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515417", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Guitarist Scotty Moore recounts playing with Elvis", "question_index": 32, "text": "...And the leather pants.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515417", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Guitarist Scotty Moore recounts playing with Elvis", "question_index": 33, "text": "Mm-hmm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. He was - I mean, he would - it might sound funny for a man to say, but he was an absolute Adonis on that show."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515417", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Guitarist Scotty Moore recounts playing with Elvis", "question_index": 34, "text": "When you stopped playing with Elvis, you virtually gave up the guitar for, I don't know, close to 25 years.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He looked good. He was in great shape. And if that man had a pill in him at that point, well, I'd like for them to prove it to me. I mean, he was just - and he was ready. He was nervous because he - w"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515417", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Guitarist Scotty Moore recounts playing with Elvis", "question_index": 35, "text": "And I guess I can't understand that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Twenty-four years, right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515417", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Guitarist Scotty Moore recounts playing with Elvis", "question_index": 36, "text": "Mm-hmm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, after I sold my studio, then I started a tape duplicating company."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515417", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Guitarist Scotty Moore recounts playing with Elvis", "question_index": 37, "text": "You started playing again, what, in the early '90s, was it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then also an industrial printing company. And so I was pretty busy. I mean, there really wasn't time for thinking about playing. I sold what guitars I had."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515417", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Guitarist Scotty Moore recounts playing with Elvis", "question_index": 38, "text": "Mm-hmm. And what was behind that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "'92."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515417", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Guitarist Scotty Moore recounts playing with Elvis", "question_index": 39, "text": "When you picked up your guitar about 24 years after you'd put it down to record with Carl Perkins, had you played it - I mean, did you remember how to play? Had you played at home in...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'll have to back up a little bit there. About 18 - two years. '90, I went to a little gathering with - for Carl Perkins. Carl and I, of course, had known each other from \"Sundays.\" I had done o"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515417", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Guitarist Scotty Moore recounts playing with Elvis", "question_index": 40, "text": "...The interim?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515417", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Guitarist Scotty Moore recounts playing with Elvis", "question_index": 41, "text": "Gosh. And can you tell me you didn't miss it those years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I didn't even have any guitars."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515417", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Guitarist Scotty Moore recounts playing with Elvis", "question_index": 42, "text": "Well, Scotty Moore, I'm really glad you're playing again. And a pleasure to have the chance to talk with you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I really didn't. I thought about that really hard. And it - well, I was so busy doing other things, I guess. It just - and - but the thing that really got me when I realized it was in my blood, the El"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515417", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Guitarist Scotty Moore recounts playing with Elvis", "question_index": 43, "text": "My interview with Scotty Moore was recorded in 1997. He died in 2016 at age 84. After we take a short break, we'll hear from Carl Perkins, the Rockabilly guitarist and singer who wrote and first recorded \"Blue Suede Shoes\" and a song The Beatles later recorded, \"Honey Don't.\" Let's listen to the song Moore and Perkins recorded together in 1975. This is \"E.P. Express.\" I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, it's been a pleasure and enjoyable."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515417", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Unidentified Person", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Guitarist Scotty Moore recounts playing with Elvis", "question_index": 44, "text": "This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Well, I put my hound dog on your trail. I found you down at Heartbreak Hotel. But that's alright now, Mama, any way you do. Saw Polk Salad Annie, she was shaking her fanny. You're right, I'm"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515420", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Carl Perkins", "title": "Roots of Rock: Rockabilly pioneer Carl Perkins", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's continue our week of interviews from our archive with R&B, rockabilly and early rock 'n' roll musicians and songwriters. Up next, we have Carl Perkins, one of the originators of rockabilly. Perkins' singing, guitar playing and songwriting brought together country and rock 'n' roll. He recorded at Sun Records, the label that also launched the careers of Elvis Presley, Jerry Lee Lewis, Johnny Cash and Roy Orbison. Perkins was best known for writing the song \"Blue Suede Shoes.\" In 1956, his version of \"Blue Suede Shoes\" was a pop, rhythm and blues and country hit. Soon after, Elvis had a huge hit with the song. Perkins also wrote \"Honey Don't,\" which was covered by the Beatles. Later on, Perkins' songs were recorded by Dolly Parton, the Judds and George Strait. I spoke with him in 1996 after he'd written a memoir. He died two years later at the age of 65. Here's Perkins' recording of his best-known song, \"Blue Suede Shoes.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515420", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Carl Perkins", "title": "Roots of Rock: Rockabilly pioneer Carl Perkins", "question_index": 1, "text": "Carl Perkins, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Well it's one for the money, two for the show, three to get ready. Now go, cat, go. But don't you step on my blue suede shoes. You can do anything but lay off my blue suede shoes. Well, you "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515420", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Carl Perkins", "title": "Roots of Rock: Rockabilly pioneer Carl Perkins", "question_index": 2, "text": "I'd love to hear the story of how you wrote \"Blue Suede Shoes.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. It's a pleasure to be here."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515420", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Carl Perkins", "title": "Roots of Rock: Rockabilly pioneer Carl Perkins", "question_index": 3, "text": "Oh, no.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'd love to share it with you. It was October the 21st, 1955. I was playing what we called back in those days a honky-tonk. They call them clubs now. But it was a honky-tonk where people get tog"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515420", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Carl Perkins", "title": "Roots of Rock: Rockabilly pioneer Carl Perkins", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. And bless her heart, she saved that sack. The original words to \"Blue Suede Shoes\" is hanging in my den in Jackson, Tennessee. And I never will forget. I called Sam Phillips at Sun Studios down"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515420", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Carl Perkins", "title": "Roots of Rock: Rockabilly pioneer Carl Perkins", "question_index": 5, "text": "Now, as you pointed out, the nursery rhyme is three to get ready and four to go.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I said, no, man. This is about a cat that don't want nobody stepping on him. He said, it sounds interesting."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515420", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Carl Perkins", "title": "Roots of Rock: Rockabilly pioneer Carl Perkins", "question_index": 6, "text": "So how did it become go, cat, go?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And four to go, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515420", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Carl Perkins", "title": "Roots of Rock: Rockabilly pioneer Carl Perkins", "question_index": 7, "text": "Now, this was the first rock 'n' roll record to top the pop charts, rhythm and blues charts and country charts at the same time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the original line there that I came up with, I said three to get ready, now go, man, go. I wrote the song go, man, go. And the first attempt I made at recording it, I said go man. And then I got"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515420", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Carl Perkins", "title": "Roots of Rock: Rockabilly pioneer Carl Perkins", "question_index": 8, "text": "And a lot of people made their own recordings of \"Blue Suede Shoes,\" Lawrence Welk among them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it was."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515420", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Carl Perkins", "title": "Roots of Rock: Rockabilly pioneer Carl Perkins", "question_index": 9, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he sure did. Pee Wee King and the Golden West Cowboys. There was every kind of version. And, you know, to this day, Terry, this song still gets put on albums all around the world. It's amazing. "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515420", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Carl Perkins", "title": "Roots of Rock: Rockabilly pioneer Carl Perkins", "question_index": 10, "text": "Now, of course, Elvis Presley...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515420", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Carl Perkins", "title": "Roots of Rock: Rockabilly pioneer Carl Perkins", "question_index": 11, "text": "...Did a version of your song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, bless his heart."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515420", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Carl Perkins", "title": "Roots of Rock: Rockabilly pioneer Carl Perkins", "question_index": 12, "text": "How did he end up doing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515420", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Carl Perkins", "title": "Roots of Rock: Rockabilly pioneer Carl Perkins", "question_index": 13, "text": "What do you think of his version?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When my record came out January 2, 1956, \"Blue Suede Shoes,\" RCA Victor contacted Elvis. They had bought him from Sun Records at that point. And they said, Elvis, there's a hit song out there. We want"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515420", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Carl Perkins", "title": "Roots of Rock: Rockabilly pioneer Carl Perkins", "question_index": 14, "text": "Did you think of yourself as trying something new? Bringing together rock and roll and country?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I loved it. You know, I fell into the trap. Elvis did it faster than I did. And I love - in the music industry, we call it the groove. The beat that he put to it was up-tempo from mine quite a bit. An"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515420", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Carl Perkins", "title": "Roots of Rock: Rockabilly pioneer Carl Perkins", "question_index": 15, "text": "Did you develop that style playing in honky-tonks?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we didn't know exactly what we were doing, Terry, but we did know that it was different. We did know that instead of leaning back and sitting comfortably in their theater seats or wherever we we"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515420", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Carl Perkins", "title": "Roots of Rock: Rockabilly pioneer Carl Perkins", "question_index": 16, "text": "We're listening back to my 1996 interview with Carl Perkins. We'll continue the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. You move there because of a flying bottle or an ashtray flying at some cat's head close to the stage. Yeah, you were on your toes playing in those places. And even, you know, back in those y"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515420", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Carl Perkins", "title": "Roots of Rock: Rockabilly pioneer Carl Perkins", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Carl Perkins, one of the originators of rockabilly. He wrote and recorded \"Blue Suede Shoes,\" which was also recorded by Elvis, and \"Honey Don't,\" which The Beatles later recorded.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Well, I said blue moon of Kentucky, just keep on shining. Shine on the one that's gone and left me blue. I said, blue moon of Kentucky, keep on..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515420", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Carl Perkins", "title": "Roots of Rock: Rockabilly pioneer Carl Perkins", "question_index": 18, "text": "There's a great story about how you ended up going to Memphis to record at Sun Studios. Your wife heard Elvis Presley on the radio, singing...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Well, I said blue moon of Kentucky, just keep on shining. Shine on the one that's gone and left me blue. I said, blue moon of Kentucky, keep on..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515420", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Carl Perkins", "title": "Roots of Rock: Rockabilly pioneer Carl Perkins", "question_index": 19, "text": "...\"Blue Moon Of Kentucky.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515420", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Carl Perkins", "title": "Roots of Rock: Rockabilly pioneer Carl Perkins", "question_index": 20, "text": "And she called you and she said, look, there's someone on the radio who sounds like you, because you and Elvis were both putting together country music, rhythm and blues and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515420", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Carl Perkins", "title": "Roots of Rock: Rockabilly pioneer Carl Perkins", "question_index": 21, "text": "...And rock and roll. And when you heard that, you went right to Memphis, to the Sun Studios to see if Sam Phillips would record you too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515420", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Carl Perkins", "title": "Roots of Rock: Rockabilly pioneer Carl Perkins", "question_index": 22, "text": "So was he willing to give you a shot right away? Did you have to work hard to convince him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're right about that."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515420", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Carl Perkins", "title": "Roots of Rock: Rockabilly pioneer Carl Perkins", "question_index": 23, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If I hadn't have felt that was my only opportunity, I would have - I wouldn't even turned around. I'd have put it in reverse and backed back to Jackson because he wasn't there when I walked in. My bro"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515420", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Carl Perkins", "title": "Roots of Rock: Rockabilly pioneer Carl Perkins", "question_index": 24, "text": "So Sam Phillips gave you a shot. What did he do, ask you to play a lot of your songs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I beat him to the front door. I had my foot in the door. I said, Mr. Phillips, I'm Carl Perkins. That's my brother sitting there in the car. And I was talking 90 miles an hour. We come down, we wa"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515420", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Carl Perkins", "title": "Roots of Rock: Rockabilly pioneer Carl Perkins", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well, why don't we hear \"Turn Around,\" your first recording. And this is different from what we've heard. This isn't - this is more of a country ballad than an up-tempo rockabilly song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And I thought, oh, Lord, he's going to listen to the whole song. And I got to jumping around. And the first thing he said to me after I did that, he said, that's a cute song, and I like it. He said,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515420", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Carl Perkins", "title": "Roots of Rock: Rockabilly pioneer Carl Perkins", "question_index": 26, "text": "Oh, that's interesting. Well, why don't we hear the country ballad that you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Now, the song on the other side was a rockabilly country thing called \"Movie Magg.\" But he liked - I'll tell you what, he told me, he said, this boy Elvis is doing - I know where your heart is, "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515420", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Carl Perkins", "title": "Roots of Rock: Rockabilly pioneer Carl Perkins", "question_index": 27, "text": "...\"Turn Around.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515420", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Carl Perkins", "title": "Roots of Rock: Rockabilly pioneer Carl Perkins", "question_index": 28, "text": "We're listening back to my 1996 interview with Carl Perkins. We'll hear more of it after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) When you're all alone and blue, and the world looks down on you, turn around. I'll be following you. When you feel that love is gone, and you realize you're wrong, turn around. I'll be follo"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515420", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Carl Perkins", "title": "Roots of Rock: Rockabilly pioneer Carl Perkins", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Carl Perkins, one of the early rockabilly performers. He wrote and recorded \"Blue Suede Shoes,\" which was later recorded by Elvis, and he wrote and recorded \"Honey Don't\" was later recorded by The Beatles.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) When you're all alone and blue, and the world looks down on you, turn around. I'll be following you. When you feel that love is gone, and you realize you're wrong, turn around. I'll be follo"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515420", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Carl Perkins", "title": "Roots of Rock: Rockabilly pioneer Carl Perkins", "question_index": 30, "text": "After the rockabilly era, sometime in the early '60s, your music wasn't doing that well commercially anymore, and you decided...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) When you're all alone and blue, and the world looks down on you, turn around. I'll be following you. When you feel that love is gone, and you realize you're wrong, turn around. I'll be follo"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515420", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Carl Perkins", "title": "Roots of Rock: Rockabilly pioneer Carl Perkins", "question_index": 31, "text": "...To give up music...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515420", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Carl Perkins", "title": "Roots of Rock: Rockabilly pioneer Carl Perkins", "question_index": 32, "text": "...Back then. Why did you want to give it up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515420", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Carl Perkins", "title": "Roots of Rock: Rockabilly pioneer Carl Perkins", "question_index": 33, "text": "Now, after you started feeling forgotten and neglected in America, you became a real hero in England.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was drinking a lot. I was drinking because I thought - I don't really - I really can't pinpoint why I got so deep into alcohol. I thought it was erasing memories. It was causing me maybe to do"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515420", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Carl Perkins", "title": "Roots of Rock: Rockabilly pioneer Carl Perkins", "question_index": 34, "text": "The Beatles did some of your songs, including...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515420", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Carl Perkins", "title": "Roots of Rock: Rockabilly pioneer Carl Perkins", "question_index": 35, "text": "...\"Honey Don't.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515420", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Carl Perkins", "title": "Roots of Rock: Rockabilly pioneer Carl Perkins", "question_index": 36, "text": "How did you end up getting so popular there? Did you tour England? What...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515420", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Carl Perkins", "title": "Roots of Rock: Rockabilly pioneer Carl Perkins", "question_index": 37, "text": "Well, I'm glad you're still recording. I really enjoyed this. Thank you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I did. I went over, 1964, with Chuck Berry, who had not been to England at that time. And the tour was very, very successful. And this was before The Beatles came to America, a month or two befo"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515420", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Carl Perkins", "title": "Roots of Rock: Rockabilly pioneer Carl Perkins", "question_index": 38, "text": "...So much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515420", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Carl Perkins", "title": "Roots of Rock: Rockabilly pioneer Carl Perkins", "question_index": 39, "text": "My interview with Carl Perkins was recorded in 1996. He died two years later at the age of 65.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it's been a treat, girl. Any time, just holler. Carl Perkins will be on this end of the line. Thank you so very much."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5515420", "date": "2025-08-25", "guest": "Carl Perkins", "title": "Roots of Rock: Rockabilly pioneer Carl Perkins", "question_index": 40, "text": "Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, we'll continue our R&B, rockabilly and early rock and roll series with Sam Phillips - whose Sun record label was the first to record Elvis Presley, Carl Perkins, Jerry Lee Lewis and Johnny Cash - and will feature my interview with Johnny Cash. I hope you'll join us. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi, Anna Bauman and John Sheehan. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our cohost is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Well, how come you say you will when you won't? You tell me you do, baby, when you don't. Let me know, honey, how you feel. Tell the truth now. Is love real? Uh-uh. Oh, honey, don't. Well, h"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517897", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Roots of Rock: Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today, we continue our archive series - R&B, rockabilly and early rock 'n' roll. We start today's show with Sam Phillips, the founder of Sun Records. That's the Memphis-based label that launched the careers of Elvis Presley, Jerry Lee Lewis, Carl Perkins, Charlie Rich, Roy Orbison and Johnny Cash. We'll hear an interview with Cash in the second half of the show. Before Phillips started his own record label, he produced the first records of bluesmen B.B. King and Howlin' Wolf. As Peter Guralnick, the author of a biography of Sam Phillips and a two-volume biography of Elvis, has said, quote, \"Phillips has left a remarkable legacy, both of Black blues and the wide adaptation of it, which became rock 'n' roll. He has written one of the most astonishing chapters in the history of American popular music, and for this, we can only be grateful,\" unquote. Sam Phillips sold Sun Records in 1969. He died in 2003. I spoke with him in 1997. We started with one of the first records he produced in his Memphis studio. It's one of the very early rock 'n' roll records, recorded in 1951. This is \"Rocket 88,\" featuring singer Jackie Brenston, with Ike Turner at the piano.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517897", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Roots of Rock: Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 1, "text": "Part of your genius has been finding musicians who brought together Black music and country music, creating rock 'n' roll and rockabilly. I'm wondering how you were exposed to Black music as a white man growing up in the segregated South.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You women have heard of jalopies. You've heard the noise they make. But let me introduce my new Rocket 88. Yes, it's great, just won't wait. Everybody likes my Rocket 88. Baby, we'll ride in"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517897", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Roots of Rock: Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 2, "text": "You started your producing career recording blues musicians and leasing the records to companies like RPM, Modern and Chess Records. You recorded Howlin' Wolf, Walter Horton, Bobby Bland, Little Junior Parker, B.B. King, the very start of their careers. I'm wondering what it was like for you as a white man in the South in the late '40s and early '50s to be recording Black musicians. Was it ever difficult to have rapport? I'm wondering if they saw you as the man because you were recording them and because you were white.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My interest in Black music started at a very early age. I worked with Black people in the fields. My daddy was a farmer, and he grew cotton. And of course, cotton had to be picked and hoed. My father,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517897", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Roots of Rock: Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 3, "text": "One of the great blues musicians that you discovered and first recorded was Howlin' Wolf. I want to play the recording that you produced of him doing \"Moanin' At Midnight\" in 1951. And this was something that you did for Chess Records. I think it made it to No. 10 on the R&B charts. Tell us about your first encounter with Howlin' Wolf.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a type of thing that I think most Black people had some doubt as to what, quote-unquote, \"we were up to\" early on because, in many instances, Black people were taken advantage of. And maybe whe"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517897", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Roots of Rock: Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Wolf, as I've said so many times, is one of my favorite artists. He was so individual in the things that he did. He had, No. 1, a voice that was so distinctive that there is - nobody could mistake"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517897", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Roots of Rock: Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 5, "text": "Well, let me play this 1951 Howlin' Wolf record that you produced, \"Moanin' At Midnight.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But more than that, his ability to get lost in a song for two or three minutes or how long the song was, was certainly as good as anybody I ever recorded. And when I say get lost in a song, I simply d"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517897", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Roots of Rock: Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 6, "text": "That's Howlin' Wolf, a recording produced in 1951 by my guest, Sam Phillips. Sam Phillips, you started Sun Records, your studio in Memphis after recording for independent companies, other people's independent companies, like Chess Records. Why did you want to start your own studio? Did you have a vision of what you wanted to do in your own studio?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Well, somebody calling me, calling me on my telephone. Well, somebody calling over my telephone. Well, keep on calling. Tell them I'm not at home."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517897", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Roots of Rock: Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 7, "text": "We're listening to the 1997 interview I recorded with Sam Phillips, the founder of Sun Records. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I actually never wanted to actually form a label as such, like Sun Records. I wanted to be strictly on the creative end of it because I believed so strongly in what I believed in. And I wanted to prov"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517897", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Roots of Rock: Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 1997 interview with Sam Phillips, the founder of Sun Records, the label that launched the careers of Elvis Presley, Johnny Cash, Jerry Lee Lewis, Carl Perkins, Charlie Rich and Roy Orbison.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I actually never wanted to actually form a label as such, like Sun Records. I wanted to be strictly on the creative end of it because I believed so strongly in what I believed in. And I wanted to prov"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517897", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Roots of Rock: Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 9, "text": "When Elvis first auditioned for you, I know that he sang in styles of his favorite performers from - you know, white and Black, from Lonnie Johnson to Dean Martin. What did you do to try to get a sense from Elvis of who Elvis really was, of what his kind of own voice was?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I actually never wanted to actually form a label as such, like Sun Records. I wanted to be strictly on the creative end of it because I believed so strongly in what I believed in. And I wanted to prov"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517897", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Roots of Rock: Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 10, "text": "Do you have a favorite of the Elvis \"Sun Sessions\" that I could play now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Elvis, being as young as he was and, of course, I'm - gosh, I'm 12 years and 3 days older than Elvis. When he was 19, I guess I was 31 or whatever. But I can tell you, the only time that we poss"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517897", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Roots of Rock: Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 11, "text": "Good.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I really do."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517897", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Roots of Rock: Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 12, "text": "Why don't we hear it? Since you produced Junior Parker's version of \"Mystery Train\" too, why don't we hear both the Junior Parker and the Elvis version back to back?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I've kidded about it a lot - of course, I wrote the song. I really didn't. It was the song \"Mystery Train\" that little Junior Parker really basically wrote it, and we did it by him on Sun, and we "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517897", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Roots of Rock: Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We're in for a treat."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517897", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Roots of Rock: Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 14, "text": "That's Junior Parker and Elvis Presley, both of their versions of \"Mystery Train,\" both versions produced by my guest Sam Phillips, the founder of Sun Records. You gave up recording in about 1963. You gave up producing records. Why did you stop?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Train, train, coming round, round the bend. Train, train, coming round the bend. Well, it took my baby, but it never will again. No, not again. Train, train..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517897", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Roots of Rock: Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 15, "text": "You must have - or I would imagine that you must have really missed recording people when you stopped and missed discovering people.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I saw the handwriting on the wall when you would do what you did, had to do, and your distributors had to work with you. And then the major labels would come along and offer contracts that we couldn't"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517897", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Roots of Rock: Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'll always miss it. I sure will. There is nothing on the face of God's Earth that gives us more solace in more different areas and more different ways than music. And you better believe that if I cou"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517897", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Roots of Rock: Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 17, "text": "Did you ever wish that you were the performer and you weren't behind the glass in the control room, but you were in front of the microphone?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Than working with, I mean, absolutely untried, unproven talent and seeing it come to the forefront and entertain, I mean, even the hardest-eared control man in the world behind that glass."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517897", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Roots of Rock: Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 18, "text": "In front of the crowd?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Never."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517897", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Roots of Rock: Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Never, never, never. And that's a good question. That's probably one of the better ones, Terry, because I was never, ever jealous. I was a pretty good musician. I've always said I wasn't worth a damn,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517897", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Roots of Rock: Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 20, "text": "I think you just answered one of my questions. You said you played tuba when you were younger. You had said at one place that your favorite composer was John Philip Sousa. Now, I mean, I love...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517897", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Roots of Rock: Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 21, "text": "...Marching band music. I love band music and marches and stuff. But I was really shocked to hear that from you, the man who discovered Elvis Presley - John Philip Sousa", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517897", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Roots of Rock: Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517897", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Roots of Rock: Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 23, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hey. You've been reading my record or something, girl. Let me tell you something about John Philip Sousa. What martial music is, is what I call stiff music. This man absolutely got more melody chords."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517897", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Roots of Rock: Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 24, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He is the best at what he did. There's no - there's not a good second. You can't name one. And, of course, the Boston Pops has always been one of my favorites. That Fiedler was so crazy. I loved him, "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517897", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Roots of Rock: Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 25, "text": "Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...or half a pint, and you can forget it, honey. You were going to have fun with music. I mean, you know, you - don't get me..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517897", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Roots of Rock: Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 26, "text": "No, no, no. Wait, wait, wait, wait. You mentioned, you know, that he'd have a little drink - my understanding is that you wouldn't let your musicians", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Really, don't get me started on his music."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517897", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Roots of Rock: Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 27, "text": "have a drink in the studio, with the exception of Howlin' Wolf.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Really, don't get me started on his music."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517897", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Roots of Rock: Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 28, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That is right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517897", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Roots of Rock: Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 29, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Damn you, woman. I swear to God. Do you have my jail record up there, too?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517897", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Roots of Rock: Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 30, "text": "Now, what about other people? Why wouldn't you let them drink? 'Cause after all, you wanted them to be as relaxed and as natural and uninhibited as they could.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But honestly, that's a fact. And the Wolf, I looked at him, as big as he was, and then a half of a pint of Thunderbird wine, and actually that half pint was half gone already. And I said, do you know,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517897", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Jackie Brenston", "title": "Roots of Rock: Sun Records founder Sam Phillips", "question_index": 31, "text": "Sam Phillips founded Sun Records. Our interview was recorded in 1997. He died in 2003. One of the people whose careers he launched was Johnny Cash. We'll hear my 1997 interview with Cash after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't really know. I really honestly don't know, Terry. I - there was just something. I wanted them to really get high on what we were attempting to do. And the one thing that I can tell you unequiv"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Next in our series of interviews on R&B, rockabilly and early rock 'n' roll, we have my 1997 interview with Johnny Cash, one of country music's most influential performers. He's in both the Country Music and Rock & Roll Halls of Fame. Some of his best-known recordings include \"I Walk The Line,\" \"Ring Of Fire\" and \"Folsom Prison Blues.\" His early recordings were on Sun Records, which was owned by Sam Phillips, who we just heard from, and was the most influential label that produced rockabilly. I spoke with Cash when his autobiography was published. In the book, he said that after his hits in the '60s, he didn't sell huge numbers of records, but he kept making music he's proud of. But in 1994, he hooked up with record producer Rick Rubin, who had produced many rap and rock hits. The recordings they made together included many Cash covers of contemporary rock songs, including songs by Nine Inch Nails and Sting. And, as the autobiography says, the Cash and Rubin collaborations transform Cash's image from Nashville has-been to hip icon, and it gained him a new, young audience. Soon after we spoke in 1997, he announced that he had Parkinson's disease and was canceling the remainder of his book tour, which had just begun. His diagnosis was later changed to autonomic neuropathy, a disease affecting the nervous system. Cash died in 2003. Earlier that year, he won a Grammy for best male country vocal performance for his new version of \"Give My Love To Rose,\" which he first recorded on Sun Records in 1957. Here's his 1956 recording of \"Get Rhythm,\" which was produced by Sam Phillips on Sun Records.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 1, "text": "You grew up during the Depression. What are some of the things that your father did to make a living while you were a boy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Hey, get rhythm. When you get the blues, come on, get rhythm. When you get the blues, get a rock 'n' roll feeling in your bones, put taps on your toes and get going. Get rhythm when you get "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 2, "text": "You know, it's interesting that you say your father inspired you so much. I'm sure you wouldn't have wanted to lead his life picking cotton.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My father was a cotton farmer first. And - but he didn't have any land, or what land he had, he lost it in the Depression. So he worked as a woodman - woodsman - cut pulp wood for the paper mills. Rod"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 3, "text": "Right. Did you have a plan to get out? Did you very much want to get out of the town where you were brought up and get out of picking cotton?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. From - until I was 18 years old, that is. Then I picked the guitar, and I've been picking it since."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 4, "text": "You have such a wonderful, deep voice. Did you start singing before your voice changed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I knew that when I left there at the age of 18, I wouldn't be back. And it was kind of common knowledge among all the people there that when you graduate from high school here, you go to college"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 5, "text": "Oh, no.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. I've got no deep voice today. I've got a cold. But when I was young, I had a high tenor voice. I used to sing Bill Monroe songs, and I'd sing Dennis Day songs that, like..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 6, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...He sang on the - yeah, songs that he sang on \"The Jack Benny Show.\""}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 7, "text": "She realized you had a gift.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Every week, he sang an old Irish folk song. And next day in the fields, I'd be singing that song if I was working in the fields. And I always loved those songs. And with my high tenor, I thought I was"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, how did you feel about your voice changing? It must have stunned you if you were singing like Denis O'Dea and then suddenly, you were singing like Johnny Cash", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's what she said, yeah. She called it the gift."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 9, "text": ". How did...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's what she said, yeah. She called it the gift."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 11, "text": "Right. Right. So did you start singing different songs as your voice got deeper?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. I guess when I was a tenor, I just - and when it changed, I thought, well, it goes right along with these hormones, and everything's working out really good, you know? I felt like my voi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 12, "text": "What's the difference?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mm-hmm. \"Lucky Old Son,\" \"Memories Are Made Of This,\" \"Sixteen Tons.\" I got - I developed a pretty unusual style, I think. If I'm anything, I'm not a singer, but I'm a song stylist."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well, but - I mean, that's not true. I understand you're making a distinction, but you certainly can sing. Yeah. Go ahead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 14, "text": "I know that you briefly took singing lessons, and you say in your new book that your singing teacher told you, you know, don't let anybody change your voice. Don't even bother with the singing lessons. How did you end up taking lessons in the first place?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. Well, a song stylist is, like, to take an old folk song like \"Delia's Gone\" and do a modern, white man's version of it. A lot of those I did that way, you know? I would take songs that I'd "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 15, "text": "What was your reaction when the teacher told you don't let anybody change what you're doing, you know, I'm not going to teach you anymore?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My mother did that. And she was determined that I was going to leave the farm and do well in life. And she thought, with the gift, I might be able to do that. So she took in washing. She got a washing"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 16, "text": "You left home when you were about 18. And then, how old were you when you actually went to Memphis?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was pretty happy about that. I didn't really want to change, you know? I felt good about my voice."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 17, "text": "When you got to Memphis, Elvis Presley had already recorded \"That's All Right.\" Sam Phillips had produced him for his label, Sun Records. You called Sam Phillips and asked for an audition. Did it take a lot of nerve to make that phone call?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I went to Memphis after I finished the Air Force in 1954. I lived on that farm until I went to the Air Force. I was in there four years. And when I came back, I got married and moved to Memphis."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 18, "text": "So what did Phillips actually respond to most of the songs that you played him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it just took the right time. I was fully confident that I was going to see Sam Phillips and to record for him that when I called him, I thought, I'm going to get on Sun Records. So I called him, a"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 19, "text": "Well, why don't we hear \"Cry, Cry, Cry,\" which was on the first single that Sun Records released by you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He responded most to a song of mine called \"Hey Porter,\" which was on the first record. But he asked me to go write a love song or maybe a bitter weeper. So I wrote a song called \"Cry, Cry, Cry,\" went"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 20, "text": "We're listening to my 1997 interview with Johnny Cash. We'll hear more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Everybody knows where you go when the sun goes down. I think you only live to see the lights uptown. I wasted my time when I would try, try, try, 'cause when the lights have lost their glow,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 1997 interview with Johnny Cash.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Everybody knows where you go when the sun goes down. I think you only live to see the lights uptown. I wasted my time when I would try, try, try, 'cause when the lights have lost their glow,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 22, "text": "What was it like when you started to go on tour? You know, after coming from the cotton fields, it's true, I mean, you'd been in the Army and you'd been abroad, you know, with the Army. But what was it like for you in the early days of getting recognized, you know, traveling around the country?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Everybody knows where you go when the sun goes down. I think you only live to see the lights uptown. I wasted my time when I would try, try, try, 'cause when the lights have lost their glow,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 23, "text": "What were the temptations like for a young married man like yourself on the road, you know, slowly becoming a star?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when I started playing concerts, I went out from Memphis to Arkansas, Louisiana and Tennessee. Played the little towns there. But I would go out myself in my car and set up the show, or get the "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 24, "text": "I want to play what I think was your first big hit, \"I Walk The Line.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Fame was pretty hard to handle, actually. The country boy in me tried to break loose and take me back to the country, but the music was stronger. The urge to go out and do the gift was a lot stronger."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 25, "text": "And so you wrote this song. Tell me the story of how you wrote it and what you were thinking about at the time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was my third record."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 26, "text": "Now, were you thinking of your own life when you wrote this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In the Air Force, I had an old Wilcox-Gay recorder and used to hear guitar runs on that recorder going (imitating guitar), like the chords on \"I Walk The Line.\" And I always wanted to write a love son"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 27, "text": "And was this - I think I read that this was supposed to be a ballad. I mean, it was supposed to be slow when you first wrote it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mm-hmm. It was kind of a prodding to myself to play it straight, Johnny."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 28, "text": "Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's the way I sang it, yeah, at first. But Sam wanted it, you know, up-tempo, and I put paper in the strings of my guitar to get that (imitating guitar) sound, and with a bass and a lead guitar, th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 29, "text": "That's funny. I mean, you'd heard your voice before it, hadn't you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But he laughed at me. I just didn't like the way it sounded to me. I didn't know I sounded that way, and I didn't like it. I don't know. But he said, let's give it a chance. And it was just a few days"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 30, "text": "But - so it was something in your own singing you weren't liking when you heard it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mm-hmm."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 31, "text": "Well, let's hear \"I Walk The Line.\" This is a great record. It was great then, and it still is. This is Johnny Cash.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the music and my voice together, I just felt like it was really weird and - but I got used to it very quickly. I don't know if that - I didn't hate it, but I just didn't like it. I thought I cou"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 32, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded with Johnny Cash in 1997. We'll hear more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I keep a close watch on this heart of mine. I keep my eyes wide open all the time. I keep the ends out for the tie that binds. Because you're mine, I walk the line. I find it very, very easy"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 33, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 1997 interview with Johnny Cash.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I keep a close watch on this heart of mine. I keep my eyes wide open all the time. I keep the ends out for the tie that binds. Because you're mine, I walk the line. I find it very, very easy"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 34, "text": "I think it was in the late 1950s that you started doing prison concerts, which you eventually became very famous for. What got you started performing in prison?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I keep a close watch on this heart of mine. I keep my eyes wide open all the time. I keep the ends out for the tie that binds. Because you're mine, I walk the line. I find it very, very easy"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 35, "text": "Why don't we hear \"Folsom Prison Blues\" from your \"Live At Folsom Prison\" record? This is Johnny Cash.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I had a song called \"Folsom Prison Blues.\" That was the hit just before \"I Walk The Line.\" And the people in Texas heard about it at the state prison and got to writing me letters asking me to c"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 36, "text": "That's Johnny Cash live at Folsom Prison. And Johnny Cash has a new autobiography that's just been published. I guess Merle Haggard was in the audience for one of your San Quentin concerts. Must have been pretty exciting to find that out. That was before he...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I hear the train a-coming. It's rolling round the bend. And I ain't seen the sunshine since I don't know when. I'm stuck in Folsom Prison, and time keeps dragging on. But that train keeps a-"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 37, "text": "...Had recorded, I think, that he was in there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 38, "text": "Yeah, and who knew?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. '68 and '69, right on the front row was Merle Haggard."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 39, "text": "You know, it's interesting. You've always or almost always worn black during your career. And I was interested in reading that your mother hated it, too", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I didn't know that till about 1963, '62. He told me all about it. He saw every show that I did there. And of course, just the rest is history for Merle. He came out and immediately had success"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 40, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I didn't know that till about 1963, '62. He told me all about it. He saw every show that I did there. And of course, just the rest is history for Merle. He came out and immediately had success"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 41, "text": "See, we have something in common. Our mothers don't like black.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She - yeah. Yeah, she did."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 42, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 43, "text": "Me, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I love it."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 44, "text": "But you gave in for a while. She started making you bright, flashy outfits, even a nice white...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I love it."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 45, "text": "...Suit. What did it feel like for you to be on stage in bright colors or all in white?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 46, "text": "A few years ago, you started making records with Rick Rubin. Seemed initially like a very improbable match. He had produced a lot of rap records and produced the Beastie Boys and the Red Hot Chili Peppers. You know, it would seem like a surprising match. It would - it ended up being a fantastic match. How did he approach you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was - that was 1956, and I hadn't been wearing the black for very long. Oh, it was OK. I would wear anything my mother made me, you know? I just couldn't afford to turn her down. But before lo"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 47, "text": "Why don't we hear \"Delia's Gone\" from Johnny Cash's \"American Recordings\" CD? And, Johnny Cash, I want to thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Lou Robin, my manager, came to me and talked to me about a man called Rick Rubin that he had been talking to that wanted me to sign with his record company. It was American Recordings. I said, I like "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5517903", "date": "2025-08-26", "guest": "Johnny Cash", "title": "Roots of Rock: Country music legend Johnny Cash", "question_index": 48, "text": "My interview with Johnny Cash was recorded in 1997. He died in 2003. Tomorrow, we continue our archive series - R&B, rockabilly and early rock 'n' roll. We'll hear from Johnny Otis, who had the hits \"Harlem Nocturne\" and \"Willie And The Hand Jive\" and discovered Little Esther, Jackie Wilson, Big Mama Thornton, Hank Ballard and Etta James. You'll also hear my interview with Etta James, who's now best known for her recording of \"At Last.\" I hope you'll join us. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Briger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi, Anna Bauman and John Sheehan. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Delia. Oh, Delia. Delia, all my life. If I hadn't have shot poor Delia, I'd have had her for my wife. Delia's gone. One more round. Delia's gone."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518865", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Big Mama Thornton", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Pioneering musician/record producer Johnny Otis", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today, we continue our archive series R&B, rockabilly and early rock 'n' roll. Before Elvis Presley recorded \"Hound Dog,\" it was recorded by Big Mama Thornton. The record's drummer and producer was Johnny Otis, whose interview we're featuring today.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518865", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Big Mama Thornton", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Pioneering musician/record producer Johnny Otis", "question_index": 1, "text": "Otis was also an R&B singer and musician, a band leader, nightclub owner and talent scout. He started out leading a big band that had the 1945 hit \"Harlem Nocturne.\" Soon after, his band, like most of the big bands, broke up for financial reasons. Otis organized a smaller unit that played a hybrid of swing and blues that became known as Rhythm & Blues. Otis' Rhythm & Blues Caravan became the first R&B touring road show. Through his nightclub, talent shows and road show, Otis discovered such singers as Esther Phillips, who first worked under the name Little Esther, Jackie Wilson, Hank Ballard and Etta James, who we'll hear from later in the show. Otis had several R&B hits in the early '50s, and in 1958, his record \"Willie And The Hand Jive\" made it to the top 10 of the rock 'n' roll chart. Although Otis is a pioneer of R&B and played almost exclusively with Black performers, he was a white Greek American who grew up in a Black neighborhood where his father ran a grocery store. During the British invasion of the '60s, his style of music became decreasingly unpopular. Otis died in 2012 at the age of 90. When I spoke with him in 1989, he was back on the road and in the recording studio. His sessions from the 1950s had just been reissued. We began with his first hit - that 1945 instrumental recording of \"Harlem Nocturne.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You ain't nothing but a hound dog. Been snooping 'round my door. You ain't nothing but a hound dog. Been snooping 'round my door. You can wag your tail, but I ain't going to feed you no more"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518865", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Big Mama Thornton", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Pioneering musician/record producer Johnny Otis", "question_index": 2, "text": "There's a great story behind recording this record. Would you tell it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You ain't nothing but a hound dog. Been snooping 'round my door. You ain't nothing but a hound dog. Been snooping 'round my door. You can wag your tail, but I ain't going to feed you no more"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518865", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Big Mama Thornton", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Pioneering musician/record producer Johnny Otis", "question_index": 3, "text": "And when \"Harlem Nocturne\" became an instant hit, then you started touring with Louis Jordan and with The Ink Spots. And they were some of the biggest Black acts of the time. Can you describe a little bit what the atmosphere was like at the concerts in which you shared the bill?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this goes back to the mid '40s, and it was my first record date with my own band, as I recall. And we did three things. I went to the producer after we had completed the third one and I said, we"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518865", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Big Mama Thornton", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Pioneering musician/record producer Johnny Otis", "question_index": 4, "text": "Did the audiences assume that you were Black?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That same feeling you feel the day before the curtain opens, that great anticipation, they're going to see Bill Kenny and The Ink Spots. They're going to see Louis Jordan. And we were lucky enough to "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518865", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Big Mama Thornton", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Pioneering musician/record producer Johnny Otis", "question_index": 5, "text": "Well, I remember when I interviewed Solomon Burke, he told a story about how when one of his records crossed over to the country charts, he started getting invitations to play certain places in the South with white crowds who would have never asked him to play if they knew he was Black, and he showed up to one of these places, and it was quite a scene. Did anything similar ever happen to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course. In those days, many of the places we played, had they suspected I was white, we would have been arrested."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518865", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Big Mama Thornton", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Pioneering musician/record producer Johnny Otis", "question_index": 6, "text": "Let me play one of the rhythm and blues records from the period that you made. And this was with the singer Little Esther, who we now know as Esther Phillips. And this was \"Double Crossing Blues.\" Do you want to say anything about this? Did you write this song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. We're talking now, I assume we're back in the '40s. If we are, it was much different than the Solomon Burke days of the '50s or the '60s with Solomon Burke. You see, your life was on the line in t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518865", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Big Mama Thornton", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Pioneering musician/record producer Johnny Otis", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I can give you a little anecdote about it."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518865", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Big Mama Thornton", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Pioneering musician/record producer Johnny Otis", "question_index": 8, "text": "And you're playing vibes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was leaving my little chicken ranch in Watts, back in the '40s, and with me were a group of guys I had found at the Barrelhouse, where - I had a nightclub there called the Barrelhouse. And we were g"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518865", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Big Mama Thornton", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Pioneering musician/record producer Johnny Otis", "question_index": 9, "text": "OK, here we go.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, and I'm playing vibes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518865", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Big Mama Thornton", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Pioneering musician/record producer Johnny Otis", "question_index": 10, "text": "Johnny Otis is my guest, and by the way, he has a new album of some of his reissued recordings from the 1950s. It's called \"The Capitol Years.\" We'll be hearing some of that in just a little while. You discovered a lot of talent, not just a Little Esther, Esther Phillips. What was your way of scouting for people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You stayed out last night, said you were playing cards. Can't understand it baby, just what makes you play so hard. I'm gonna leave you."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518865", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Big Mama Thornton", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Pioneering musician/record producer Johnny Otis", "question_index": 11, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, my first singer was Ernestine Anderson when she was just a little girl."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518865", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Big Mama Thornton", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Pioneering musician/record producer Johnny Otis", "question_index": 12, "text": "It must have been funny, though, when the parents were bringing you their children. You must have been exposed to a lot of really untalented kids also.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Then - yeah. And then came Esther Phillips. But after Esther Phillips' amazing success and became the big child star of the African American community nationally, then everywhere we played, people - t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518865", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Big Mama Thornton", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Pioneering musician/record producer Johnny Otis", "question_index": 13, "text": "We're listening back to my 1989 interview with the late Johnny Otis. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I learned quick. They would come and say - and they almost all had exactly - I don't care if I was in Mississippi or Massachusetts. They would say, Now, Mr. Otis, we know that you know. And if J"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518865", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Big Mama Thornton", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Pioneering musician/record producer Johnny Otis", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 1989 interview with the late Johnny Otis, an R&B musician, producer, nightclub owner and talent scout who discovered Big Mama Thornton, Esther Phillips, Jackie Wilson and Etta James, who we'll hear from later.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I learned quick. They would come and say - and they almost all had exactly - I don't care if I was in Mississippi or Massachusetts. They would say, Now, Mr. Otis, we know that you know. And if J"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518865", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Big Mama Thornton", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Pioneering musician/record producer Johnny Otis", "question_index": 15, "text": "We've been talking about rhythm and blues. When there was the transition between rhythm and blues and rock and roll, did you have to - did you find yourself changing the music, or were, maybe, the audiences changing that you were playing your music to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I learned quick. They would come and say - and they almost all had exactly - I don't care if I was in Mississippi or Massachusetts. They would say, Now, Mr. Otis, we know that you know. And if J"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518865", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Big Mama Thornton", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Pioneering musician/record producer Johnny Otis", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, I want to play a song that you had that was a hit on the rock 'n' roll charts in 1958, and this is \"Willie And The Hand Jive.\" Let's play it, and then we'll talk about it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's true. When I was dealing with the classic rhythm and blues that we developed back in the '40s, we did a lot of bluesy material because the Black audience demanded it. As the transition oc"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518865", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Big Mama Thornton", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Pioneering musician/record producer Johnny Otis", "question_index": 17, "text": "That's \"Hand Jive,\" which was a big hit for my guest, Johnny Otis, back in 1958. Tell me about writing this song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I know a cat named Way Out Willie. He got a cool little chick named Rockin' Millie. He can walk and stroll and Susie Q and do that crazy hand jive, too. Papa told Willie, you'll ruin my home"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518865", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Big Mama Thornton", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Pioneering musician/record producer Johnny Otis", "question_index": 18, "text": "So the hand jive was a - basically, just kind of clapping and moving your hands...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My manager, the late Hal Zeiger and partner, back at that time, we had a hit in '57 called \"Ma, He's Making Eyes At Me\" with the great Marie Adams singing, and it became a hit, not here in the States,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518865", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Big Mama Thornton", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Pioneering musician/record producer Johnny Otis", "question_index": 19, "text": "...While you're sitting, in a dance-like version...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, while you're sitting."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518865", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Big Mama Thornton", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Pioneering musician/record producer Johnny Otis", "question_index": 20, "text": "I want to play something that you're featured on from this new re-issue called \"The Capitol Years.\" And this is \"Can't You Hear Me Calling.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518865", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Big Mama Thornton", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Pioneering musician/record producer Johnny Otis", "question_index": 21, "text": "And you're singing on this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518865", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Big Mama Thornton", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Pioneering musician/record producer Johnny Otis", "question_index": 22, "text": "And what do you play?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518865", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Big Mama Thornton", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Pioneering musician/record producer Johnny Otis", "question_index": 23, "text": "Oh, you sound really good on it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518865", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Big Mama Thornton", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Pioneering musician/record producer Johnny Otis", "question_index": 24, "text": "OK. Well, let's give it a listen.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, well, OK. You and my mother think so."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518865", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Big Mama Thornton", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Pioneering musician/record producer Johnny Otis", "question_index": 25, "text": "Johnny Otis from the new album \"The Capitol Years.\" You know, Ben Vaughan wrote the liner notes for this record and in it he mentions that in one of - I guess it was a publicity shot - that your goatee was airbrushed out so that you would look less ethnic? What was the story behind that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) In the morning..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518865", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Big Mama Thornton", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Pioneering musician/record producer Johnny Otis", "question_index": 26, "text": "So he airbrushed out the goatee.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, Hal Zeiger, the late Hal Zeiger, God rest his soul. He was my partner at the time and he did these things without even asking me. Well, you know, he wanted me to look less Black. He wanted me to l"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518865", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Big Mama Thornton", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Pioneering musician/record producer Johnny Otis", "question_index": 27, "text": "Now, your family is Greek? Was Greek?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518865", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Big Mama Thornton", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Pioneering musician/record producer Johnny Otis", "question_index": 28, "text": "Your parents?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518865", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Big Mama Thornton", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Pioneering musician/record producer Johnny Otis", "question_index": 29, "text": "And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518865", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Big Mama Thornton", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Pioneering musician/record producer Johnny Otis", "question_index": 30, "text": "...And your last name was Veliotes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Were and are. Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518865", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Big Mama Thornton", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Pioneering musician/record producer Johnny Otis", "question_index": 31, "text": "And when did you change it to Otis?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Veliotes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518865", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Big Mama Thornton", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Pioneering musician/record producer Johnny Otis", "question_index": 32, "text": "So, I know that your father had a grocery store. Was that in the same neighborhood that you lived in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The kids at school kind of made that decision for me. They decided not to deal with try to remember how to pronounce that. They would say, Johnny Otis. And that's the way it stuck."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518865", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Big Mama Thornton", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Pioneering musician/record producer Johnny Otis", "question_index": 33, "text": "And this was in a Black neighborhood?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. The grocery store was downstairs and we lived upstairs."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518865", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Big Mama Thornton", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Pioneering musician/record producer Johnny Otis", "question_index": 34, "text": "So that, I guess, helps explain why you grew up with such Black identification.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. In the heart of the Black neighborhood."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518865", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Big Mama Thornton", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Pioneering musician/record producer Johnny Otis", "question_index": 35, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's also the luckiest thing that ever happened to me."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518865", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Big Mama Thornton", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Pioneering musician/record producer Johnny Otis", "question_index": 36, "text": "Did you not think of yourself as being white when you were growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He might, in fact, have put it in a WASP neighborhood. Then what would have happened to me?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518865", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Big Mama Thornton", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Pioneering musician/record producer Johnny Otis", "question_index": 37, "text": "What was it about the way of life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't think about that at all. I had no concept about that. Luckily, my father was absolutely wonderful in that respect. And my playmates were - I didn't know it then, but they were Black, African "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518865", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Big Mama Thornton", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Pioneering musician/record producer Johnny Otis", "question_index": 38, "text": "My interview with Johnny Otis was recorded in 1989. He died in 2012 at the age of 90. After we take a short break, we'll hear from one of the singers he discovered, Etta James. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Everything about it. You know, different cultures have different characteristics, and the characteristics of the African American community became my own. And I just wasn't willing to give that up, to"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518871", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Etta James", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer/songwriter Etta James", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's continue our archive series R&B, rockabilly and early rock 'n' roll with rhythm and blues singer Etta James. She got her start at the age of 15 when she was discovered by Johnny Otis, who we just heard from, and began performing with his traveling R&B review. By age 17, she had her first hit, \"Roll With Me Henry,\" an answer song to Hank Ballard's \"Work With Me Annie.\" After establishing herself as a rhythm and blues star in the late '50s and early '60s, her career was eclipsed by changes in pop music. But later, she was inducted into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame and the Blues Hall of Fame. Younger generations became aware of her for her recording of \"At Last\" after Beyonce sang that song at President Obama's first inaugural, while he and Michelle Obama had their first dance as president and first lady.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518871", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Etta James", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer/songwriter Etta James", "question_index": 1, "text": "When I spoke with Etta James in 1994, she had just released an album called \"Mystery Lady,\" paying tribute to jazz singer Billie Holiday. The album featured James doing songs Holiday had recorded, like this one, \"The Very Thought Of You.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) At last, my love has come along. My lonely days are over, and life is like a song. Oh, yeah, yeah. At last..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518871", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Etta James", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer/songwriter Etta James", "question_index": 2, "text": "Etta James, welcome to FRESH AIR. Tell me the story of why you wanted to record a Billie Holiday record.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) The very thought of you, and I forget to do the little ordinary things everyone ought to do. I'm living in a kind of daydream. I'm happy as a queen. But foolish though it may seem, to me, th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518871", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Etta James", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer/songwriter Etta James", "question_index": 3, "text": "Now, let me ask you this. You grew up in a foster home. I think when your mother had you, she was 14 years old.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I thought that since I grew up and I did my teenage years in San Francisco and my mother was such a Billie Holiday and jazz fan, mostly Billie Holiday, and I kind of - all along, I says, what, j"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518871", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Etta James", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer/songwriter Etta James", "question_index": 4, "text": "What was your foster family like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. She was a kid. And, you know, I had feelings about all that kind of stuff for years, and I went to therapy and all about it. But then, as I got older, I realized that she really did the best fo"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518871", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Etta James", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer/songwriter Etta James", "question_index": 5, "text": "So when you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were lovely. They were older people, and they had property. And they lived in the Eastside, lower Eastside of Los Angeles. And my grandmother was a church lady, and they believed in - you know, t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518871", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Etta James", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer/songwriter Etta James", "question_index": 6, "text": "When you were singing in the church choir, did your grandmother or anyone else in the family get upset if, on your own time, you sang blues or any kind of secular music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518871", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Etta James", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer/songwriter Etta James", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, because when - as long as - my grandmother lived until I was - my grandmother died when I was 12. So I sang gospel music from 5 until 12. And so my grandmother - she never - she wasn't one of thos"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518871", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Etta James", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer/songwriter Etta James", "question_index": 8, "text": "But...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I really turned into, you know, the real street kid. I was kind of like a runaway, but I had a mother. You know what I mean? And..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518871", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Etta James", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer/songwriter Etta James", "question_index": 9, "text": "We're listening to my 1994 interview with singer Etta James. We'll hear more of it after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I had a place to stay."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518871", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Etta James", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer/songwriter Etta James", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 1994 interview with the late R&B singer Etta James.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I had a place to stay."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518871", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Etta James", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer/songwriter Etta James", "question_index": 11, "text": "You know what I'd like to do? I'd like to play one of your rhythm and blues recordings that has a very gospel sound to it. I want to play \"Something's Got A Hold On Me\" from 1961. Do you think of this as having a gospel sound?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I had a place to stay."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518871", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Etta James", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer/songwriter Etta James", "question_index": 12, "text": "And in your song, it must be love.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Matter of fact, it is a gospel song. We wrote that song, and we adapted it from a gospel song. And the gospel song was \"Something's Got a Hold On Me, It Must Be the Lord.\""}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518871", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Etta James", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer/songwriter Etta James", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Must be love. Right, right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518871", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Etta James", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer/songwriter Etta James", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is Etta James recorded in 1961.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Now, don't get me because I'm not the one who decided to, but I was one of the writers. I just kind of said, OK, well, let's go, rock 'n' roll."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518871", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Etta James", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer/songwriter Etta James", "question_index": 15, "text": "Well, it wasn't too long after you moved in with your mother that you actually went on the road. I mean, Johnny Otis, who had a now-famous rhythm and blues touring review, got you into the show. He discovered you. But how did you audition for him? How did you find him or he find you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Oh, oh, sometimes I get a good feeling, yeah. (Yeah). I get a feeling that I never, never, never, never had before. No, no. (Yeah). I just want to tell you right now that (ooh) I believe, I "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518871", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Etta James", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer/songwriter Etta James", "question_index": 16, "text": "The Hank Ballard record.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, kind of, yeah, I think it was kind of a little bit of both, really, but he really found me because I - at that time, my mother - I had ran away from home. And I went and I stayed with two girls,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518871", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Etta James", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer/songwriter Etta James", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So during those days, you know, everybody would make an answer. You said, work with me, Annie, then we said, roll with me, Henry. So one night, the young girl and myself that were - we were the"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518871", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Etta James", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer/songwriter Etta James", "question_index": 18, "text": "So you auditioned for Johnny Otis. He liked your singing, I suppose.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Johnny Otis was, like, about a 34-, 35-year-old man. So we said, oh, no, that's all right. That's all right. We'll just - we'll cool that and everything. So Johnny Otis snatched the phone from her. An"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518871", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Etta James", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer/songwriter Etta James", "question_index": 19, "text": "And invited you to go on the tour. But you were still a minor. Did he have to get your mother's permission?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518871", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Etta James", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer/songwriter Etta James", "question_index": 20, "text": "Oh, I see. Right. I see.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518871", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Etta James", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer/songwriter Etta James", "question_index": 21, "text": "So why don't we hear the first song that you recorded? And this was the first song recorded after going on the road with Johnny Otis. And it's \"Roll With Me, Henry,\" also called \"Wallflower\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I brought the note back with a tiny little bag, a little plastic bag or something with some clothes in it, and myself and the two girls got on Johnny's bus, and we split to LA."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518871", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Etta James", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer/songwriter Etta James", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I brought the note back with a tiny little bag, a little plastic bag or something with some clothes in it, and myself and the two girls got on Johnny's bus, and we split to LA."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518871", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Etta James", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer/songwriter Etta James", "question_index": 23, "text": "Yeah, called \"Dance With Me, Henry\" also. And this is Etta James.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And called \"Dance With Me, Henry.\""}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518871", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Etta James", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer/songwriter Etta James", "question_index": 24, "text": "Now, after you recorded this, Georgia Gibbs did a cover recording of this called \"Dance With Me Henry.\" And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You better roll it while the rolling is on. Roll on, roll on, roll on. While the cats are balling, you better stop your stalling. It's intermission in a minute, so you better get with it. Ro"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518871", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Etta James", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer/songwriter Etta James", "question_index": 25, "text": "Was that supposed to be the tamer version, the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518871", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Etta James", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer/songwriter Etta James", "question_index": 26, "text": "For sex? Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, well, you know, during those days, you weren't allowed to say roll because roll was, like, a vulgar word. You know what I mean? Think about it."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518871", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Etta James", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer/songwriter Etta James", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They - yeah. Think about it. They would probably burn Prince at the stake, right?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518871", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Etta James", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer/songwriter Etta James", "question_index": 28, "text": "We're listening to my 1994 interview with singer Etta James. We'll continue the interview after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 1994 interview with the late R&B singer Etta James.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But you couldn't say roll. So rather than - they banned my record from the air. And what happened - what we had to do was sell it underground, and not only that, change the title to \"Wallflower.\" And "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518871", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Etta James", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer/songwriter Etta James", "question_index": 29, "text": "At some point in your career, you started dressing in evening gowns for performances and dying your hair blonde. Tell me how you created that on-stage image for yourself.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But you couldn't say roll. So rather than - they banned my record from the air. And what happened - what we had to do was sell it underground, and not only that, change the title to \"Wallflower.\" And "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518871", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Etta James", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer/songwriter Etta James", "question_index": 30, "text": "So how long did you dye your hair?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think probably by me being so young. And I was oversized, like I am now, but, I mean, I had a real nice figure and I was tall. And I remember this singer Joyce Bryant. She was a Black singer, and I "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518871", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Etta James", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer/songwriter Etta James", "question_index": 31, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "How - for how long?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518871", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Etta James", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer/songwriter Etta James", "question_index": 32, "text": "And why'd you stop?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think, well, most of my career. It was blonde, platinum blonde all the way, I would think, up into the '70s. Maybe the '72 or '73, something like that."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518871", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Etta James", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer/songwriter Etta James", "question_index": 33, "text": "Was it difficult for you to give up drugs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I - you know, I wanted to - I think I - I think - one thing about it, I think things had changed. I know things had changed. And my career hadn't - wasn't happening. And I didn't think that I ne"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518871", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Etta James", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer/songwriter Etta James", "question_index": 34, "text": "Was it hard to make a comeback after you started - stopped using?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not when I got down to - you know, I had given it up many a time. You know, I'd kicked my habits many a time. But when I went in 1974, I gave heroin up. I was on methadone for maybe three or four year"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518871", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Etta James", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer/songwriter Etta James", "question_index": 35, "text": "In 1978, you opened in some cities for The Rolling Stones on their tour. Were the Stones fans of yours?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not really, because when I stopped using, I - you know, I wasn't the kind that went around and wanted people to pat me on the back about it. It's just that I just picked up the - you know, picked "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518871", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Etta James", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer/songwriter Etta James", "question_index": 36, "text": "I'd like to close our interview with another selection from your new album of songs that were recorded by Billie Holiday. I thought we could play \"How Deep Is The Ocean,\" since this is one of the songs you sang many years ago when you auditioned for Johnny Otis. What do you think is the difference between what the song means to you now and what it meant to you then, and how you sing it now and how you sung it then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Yeah. Matter of fact, when I was in rehab at the same rehab center in the '70s, '74 and '75, I got a letter from Keith Richards that had told - that had said to me that they were getting rea"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518871", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Etta James", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer/songwriter Etta James", "question_index": 37, "text": "Etta James, it's been a pleasure. I want to thank you a lot for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think probably it's because now I really understand. You know what I mean? I understand what I'm singing about. You know, songs that I get - any song that I decide to sing or a song that someone sen"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518871", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Etta James", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer/songwriter Etta James", "question_index": 38, "text": "My interview with Etta James was recorded in 1994.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much, Terry."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5518871", "date": "2025-08-27", "guest": "Etta James", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer/songwriter Etta James", "question_index": 39, "text": "Tomorrow, as we continue our archive series R&B, rockabilly, and early rock 'n' roll, we'll feature interviews with two R&B singers from the '50s and '60s - Ruth Brown, whose recordings include \"Mama He Treats Your Daughter Mean\" - and LaVern Baker, whose hits included \"Bumble Bee,\" \"Tweedlee Dee\" and \"Jim Dandy.\" I hope you'll join us. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Briger. Interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi, Anna Bauman and John Sheehan. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) How much do I love you? I'll tell you no lie. How deep is the ocean? How high is the sky? How many times a day do I think of you? How many roses are sprinkled with dew? Ooh. How far would I "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today we continue our archive series R&B, rockabilly and early rock 'n' roll with the late R&B singer Ruth Brown. She was one of Atlantic Records' first hitmakers. In the '50s, she was their most prolific and bestselling performer. She recorded over 80 songs for the label between 1949 and '62. She later sued the label for royalties. Her best-known records include \"Teardrops From My Eyes,\" \"5-10-15 Hours,\" \"(Mama) He Treats Your Daughter Mean\" and \"Lucky Lips.\" Ruth Brown made a comeback in the '80s when she starred in the Broadway revue \"Black And Blue,\" for which she won a Tony Award. She also co-starred in John Waters' 1988 film \"Hairspray\" as Motormouth Maybelle. In 1993, Brown was inducted into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. She died in 2006. She was 78. I spoke with her in 1997. Let's start with her 1953 recording of \"(Mama) He Treats Your Daughter Mean,\" a song she initially didn't want to record, but it went on to become one of her biggest hits.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 1, "text": "You started singing in church. What was the church, and what was the music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Mama, he treats your daughter mean. Mama, he treats your daughter mean. Mama, he treats your daughter mean. He's the meanest man I've ever seen. Mama, he treats me badly, makes me love him m"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 2, "text": "Which you liked a lot, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that was the rule, you know. My dad and coming from a Southern family - I don't know. I wouldn't say that because it was a Southern family that was the norm, but I think that practically any R&a"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 3, "text": "So what kind of singing did you do in church?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was sort of twisted between - my father's church was Methodist, and they have sort of just flat-footed, inspirational spirituals I call it. I mean, people just didn't jump up and down and shou"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 5, "text": "Another exposure to music you had was when you were in North Carolina for the summers, working in the cotton fields.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Nothing did, you know? And then on the other hand, you had, I got shoes, and you got shoe. All God's children got shoes. When I get to heaven, going to put on my shoes, dance all over God's heaven."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 6, "text": "A lot of people sang and shouted there. Sing me some of the things you heard in the cotton fields.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 7, "text": "Did you sing yourself when you were working in the fields?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my goodness. \"Sometimes I Feel Like A Motherless Child\" and \"Oh, Lord, Have Mercy On Me.\" (Singing) Oh, Lord, have mercy on me. Oh, Lord, have mercy. Have mercy on me. When the world's on fire, wh"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is on the radio?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, occasionally. But I think that by that time, I had started to listen on the radios back in Virginia and hear some things that I wanted to really get into musically. Of course, I was exposed, first"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 9, "text": "We're listening back to my 1997 interview with Ruth Brown. We'll hear more of it after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, this is radio. Oh, yeah. Well, radio's always been the intermediary, you know, and one thing about radio was that it was one of the reasons that rhythm and blues, as I knew it, eventually turned i"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 1997 interview with rhythm and blues singer Ruth Brown. She was one of Atlantic Records' first hitmakers. She recorded over 80 songs for the label between 1949 and '62.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, this is radio. Oh, yeah. Well, radio's always been the intermediary, you know, and one thing about radio was that it was one of the reasons that rhythm and blues, as I knew it, eventually turned i"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 11, "text": "Ruth Brown, you started your singing career singing at USO clubs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, this is radio. Oh, yeah. Well, radio's always been the intermediary, you know, and one thing about radio was that it was one of the reasons that rhythm and blues, as I knew it, eventually turned i"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 12, "text": "Was this during World War II or after?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well, you were a teenager. You were...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was between 1941 and 1945, you know, which was - Pearl Harbor was December 7, 1941. And these were the war years."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 14, "text": "You were in your early teens during part of this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was, indeed."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 15, "text": "So what was it like for you as a young teenager to be singing for soldiers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Indeed, I was."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 16, "text": "You say at some point that you realized that you could make more money singing two nights a week than your father could make working a full week.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". May the force be with you. The force was with me, even then when I came down because my dad didn't even wait for me to get outside the building. He decided that if I had ignored him, then he was goi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 17, "text": "And I'm wondering, as a girl, what impact that realization had on you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 18, "text": "You won one of the amateur nights at the Apollo...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was really important because I was the oldest of eight children. As the oldest, I was the first one that had to go to work. My dad was a dockhand and a laborer. And I know that he made up to "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 19, "text": "...Sessions, and I guess it was the late 1940s.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 20, "text": "And then, in - oh, it must've been 1948 or '49, Atlantic Records wanted to sign you. And they were going to bring you up North again, this time for a paid date at the Apollo.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 21, "text": "What happened to you when you were driving up North to play the Apollo?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 22, "text": "You were unable to talk until then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I remember it well. Outside of Chester, Pennsylvania, I'm still not sure what happened. Maybe the gentleman driving might've gone to sleep at the wheel. I don't know. All I know is that I heard a - I "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 23, "text": "Well, I guess this brings us to your first record made in 1949...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I couldn't speak. But I did end up in Chester hospital and was there for 11 months and something. In fact, my contract with Atlantic was signed while I was a patient in the hospital. They came ov"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 24, "text": "...For Atlantic Records.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 25, "text": "It was called \"So Long.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 26, "text": "Tell us about your memories of this first recording session.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, ma'am."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 27, "text": "From Atlantic Records?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I remember going in the studio on crutches to do this tune. And, in fact, it was not my record session at all. Atlantic was, at that time, recording a section of music with Eddie Condon. It was Eddie "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 28, "text": "Well, Ruth Brown, let's listen to your version, your first recording, 1949, of \"So Long.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes - the bright idea to include me on one of the tracks in there just to sort of get me - you know, they found this opportunity that they could put me on this album with Eddie Condon, which they did,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 29, "text": "That's Ruth Brown, her first recording made in 1949. Ruth Brown, this recording made the rhythm and blues charts. But your next few records didn't do as well. Was it hard for you to find the right material?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) So long. Hope we'll meet again someday. Hope that maybe then you'll say, darling, I was wrong. So long. Gee, I hate to see you go. You're the world to me, you know? You've been mine so long."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 30, "text": "When you became a rhythm and blues star, you toured with some of the rhythm and blues and rock 'n' roll shows. And I'm wondering if you could give us a taste of what it was like for you as a performer to be in those rock 'n' roll shows.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it was in a way. But as I said, I didn't have that much to do about it. And I think that one of the things that made the difference was that when I went with Atlantic Records, I was the first fem"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 31, "text": "So you're saying...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it was wonderful. But of course, they came along a little later. I think they started, there was a father and son team out of West Virginia who booked all those shows, called the super shows. The "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 32, "text": "Did Lester Young share the bill with the Drifters and the Clovers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But it was wonderful."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 33, "text": "Must've been an awfully interesting bus ride", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, of course. With me. Of course."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, of course. With me. Of course."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 35, "text": "What kind of comedy? Did you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was interesting, but we were so young and naive. I didn't realize the greatness of a lot of these people I was working with. I even worked with Joe Louis, the heavyweight champion of the world. A l"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 36, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He did just what it is he does. He played the boxer. And he had a little guy with him named Leonard Reed, who played his second. He was the one that he was always trying to punch out, you know? And Jo"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 37, "text": "We're listening back to my 1997 interview with Ruth Brown. We'll hear more of our conversation after a break. And we'll hear from another rhythm and blues star, LaVern Baker. I'm Terry Gross and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Again."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 38, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my 1997 interview with rhythm and blues star Ruth Brown. She was one of Atlantic's first hitmakers and recorded over 80 songs for the label between 1949 and '62. She was inducted into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame in 1993.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I want to go north, east, south, west. Every which way, as long as I'm moving, long as I'm moving. Long as I'm moving, long as I'm moving. Long as I'm moving, baby, I don't care. You got big"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 39, "text": "Was there ever a point during your adult life when you couldn't earn a living singing and you had to do other jobs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I want to go north, east, south, west. Every which way, as long as I'm moving, long as I'm moving. Long as I'm moving, long as I'm moving. Long as I'm moving, baby, I don't care. You got big"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 40, "text": "What did you do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. Of course."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 41, "text": "This was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course. I did domestic work."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 42, "text": "You did domestic work after you had had rhythm and blues hits?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I drove a school bus."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 43, "text": "Well, how did you feel after the adulation that you'd get on stage cleaning other people's houses?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure. This was during the '60s. That wasn't too long ago. This was during the '60s, the advent of The Beatles and the British invasion. And the business became a little more complicated, but that "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 44, "text": "You made a comeback in the '80s with a series of music theater revues, including \"Black And Blue.\" And I'm wondering now how, when you're performing on stage, the feeling and the audience compare with the earlier part of your career in the '50s.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I didn't feel anything about it because what I was doing was earning a living, a clean, decent living. And it was what my mother had done all of her life. So I felt no shame about it because I d"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 45, "text": "It's a great movie. It's a John Waters movie...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I cannot explain to you what it's like now. It's kind of awesome. But the beautiful thing is that there are a lot of young faces out there that are now becoming aware of this music that I was a part o"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 46, "text": "...About - yeah, with Ricki Lake.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, ma'am, with Ricki Lake."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 47, "text": "It was her first big role.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 48, "text": "And it's about one of those dance shows in Baltimore...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 49, "text": "...Kind of like \"American Bandstand\" but one set in Baltimore.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a spoof."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 50, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a real show."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 51, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I remember the reality of it. And it was in a time when John Waters was a young man. He grew up hearing that, and I remember those situations very, very well. And I had said, well, I'm not going to do"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 52, "text": "Divine.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Not on your life, you know? But, of course, it was the - oh, I can't call his name. He died."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 53, "text": "That was your role in the movie, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 54, "text": "I would like you, Ruth Brown, to choose - if you have one - your favorite of your early recordings, and we'll play that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was my role and continues to be my claim to fame, you know. That cult film has really been wonderful. I always - I go to the mailbox quite often now and find a little check with John Waters - God"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 55, "text": "And why are you choosing that one?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, there are so many that were good. But I think if I had to choose one, it would probably be, at this point in my life, \"Oh What A Dream.\""}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 56, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because this whole life has been a dream. I tell you..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 57, "text": "Well, let's hear your 1954 recording, \"Oh What A Dream.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...When I look back at it, I can't believe some of the things that did happen. And when I look back on it now, it's - I don't know. It seems like a dream. That's what it is, you know?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 58, "text": "That's Ruth Brown recorded in 1954. Well, Ruth Brown, I want to thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Woke up this morning, and I looked around. So disappointed, I laid back down. Oh, what a dream, what a dream I had last night. Dreamed I held you in my arms. But I'm still waiting for that d"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 59, "text": "And I've enjoyed hearing your story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But you've been very kind."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520593", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Ruth Brown", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ruth Brown", "question_index": 60, "text": "And thank you very, very much. Ruth Brown recorded in 1997. She died in 2006 at the age of 78. In 2016, Brown received a Grammy Lifetime Achievement Award. Coming up, we talk with another rhythm and blues star, singer LaVern Baker. This is FRESH AIR", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520606", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Lavern Baker", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer LaVern Baker", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Up next in our archive series R&B, rockabilly and early rock 'n' roll, we have an interview with rhythm and blues singer LaVern Baker. Baker was one of Atlantic's first big success stories, with hits like \"Jim Dandy,\" \"Tweedlee Dee\" and \"Bumble Bee.\" I spoke with her in 1991, the year she was inducted into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. It named her 1956 recording \"Jim Dandy\" one of the 500 songs that shaped rock 'n' roll. Let's hear it.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520606", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Lavern Baker", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer LaVern Baker", "question_index": 1, "text": "LaVern Baker, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Jim Dandy to the rescue, Jim Dandy to the rescue, Jim Dandy to the rescue. Go, Jim Dandy. Go, Jim Dandy. Jim Dandy on a mountaintop, 30,000 feet to drop. Spied a lady on a runaway horse. Aha"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520606", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Lavern Baker", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer LaVern Baker", "question_index": 2, "text": "Now, you just performed last weekend at the Village Gate, a club in New York. What did you sing? What's in your repertoire now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. It's a pleasure."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520606", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Lavern Baker", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer LaVern Baker", "question_index": 3, "text": "Now, in the 20 years or so that you weren't performing in the States, you were living in the Philippines?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, right now, the people are so interested in hearing my old recordings. So that's basically what I'm doing with a few other songs. But I'm putting my act together for California, which I will be d"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520606", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Lavern Baker", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer LaVern Baker", "question_index": 4, "text": "What kind of other talent did you book for the shows?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I'm the show director for the United States Marine Corps. I book all the shows in the club, and on Fridays and Saturdays, I sing myself. And for the happy hour, you know, I laugh and talk with th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520606", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Lavern Baker", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer LaVern Baker", "question_index": 5, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I booked all Filipino talent. And we book whatever I think is suiting for the club. You know, if they've had too much singing, then I'll bring in, like, acrobats and tumblers and stuff like that"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520606", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Lavern Baker", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer LaVern Baker", "question_index": 6, "text": "Well, let's listen to another one of your hit records from the 1950s before we talk some more. And why don't we listen to \"Bumble Bee\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520606", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Lavern Baker", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer LaVern Baker", "question_index": 7, "text": "I think, you know, this is kind of a novelty record. But it's a wonderful recording.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, wow."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520606", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Lavern Baker", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer LaVern Baker", "question_index": 8, "text": "Why do you feel funny about it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I'm singing it now. And I feel so very, very funny singing that."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520606", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Lavern Baker", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer LaVern Baker", "question_index": 9, "text": "OK, let's listen to LaVern Baker. And this is \"Bumble Bee.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, because I was, you know, very, very young. And at the time, it fitted me, you know? It was good. And I had a big hit with the kids. But now I'm much older. I feel funny singing it, you know? But"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520606", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Lavern Baker", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer LaVern Baker", "question_index": 10, "text": "That's my guest LaVern Baker, as recorded in 1960. Now, LaVern Baker, you were born in Chicago, and you started performing in your teens.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I'm going to have to put you down. You've been treating me like a clown. You know you've hurt me once before. You'll never hurt me anymore. Shoo-ee, you hurt me like a bee, a bumble bee, a e"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520606", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Lavern Baker", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer LaVern Baker", "question_index": 11, "text": "And when you started performing in clubs around Chicago, you were known as Little Miss Sharecropper. Who gave you that name?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520606", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Lavern Baker", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer LaVern Baker", "question_index": 12, "text": "Did you protest when they wanted to outfit you that way and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520606", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Lavern Baker", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer LaVern Baker", "question_index": 13, "text": "Now, you were one of the first Black singers to cross over to a white teenage audience...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I didn't. You know, you got to get your foot in the door before you can say anything in regards to what you do, you know. I wasn't strong. I just wanted to get started, and I didn't care how, you "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520606", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Lavern Baker", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer LaVern Baker", "question_index": 14, "text": "...In the 1950s. Was there a conscious attempt at Atlantic Records to give you certain kind of material or to change your stage act in any way to help you cross over?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520606", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Lavern Baker", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer LaVern Baker", "question_index": 15, "text": "They'd holler in the background on the record?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "but I didn't argue then. And - because they knew what they wanted, you know? But coincidentally, the things that they gave me I enjoyed doing at that time. So I gave my best at it, you know. And somet"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520606", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Lavern Baker", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer LaVern Baker", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520606", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Lavern Baker", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer LaVern Baker", "question_index": 17, "text": "Which record did they do that on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520606", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Lavern Baker", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer LaVern Baker", "question_index": 18, "text": "Now, I want to play \"Tweedlee Dee.\" But, you know, the voices that come in at the beginning, they're kind of square-sounding voices, don't you think? The...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Quite a few. They'd sing with the - we had the - at that time, we had a group called - a backup group called The Cues. And a lot of things - he'd come in, and he showed them. He'd sing with them to sh"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520606", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Lavern Baker", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer LaVern Baker", "question_index": 19, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520606", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Lavern Baker", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer LaVern Baker", "question_index": 20, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "These are The Cues."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520606", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Lavern Baker", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer LaVern Baker", "question_index": 21, "text": "What made it so long?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And one of The Cues is the one that wrote \"Tweedlee Dee.\" Mr. Winfield Scott, he's the one that wrote it. And that is the longest recording session I've ever had in my life."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520606", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Lavern Baker", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer LaVern Baker", "question_index": 22, "text": "Whoa. You're kidding.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We did 52 takes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520606", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Lavern Baker", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer LaVern Baker", "question_index": 23, "text": "How come? What went wrong?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I kid you not."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520606", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Lavern Baker", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer LaVern Baker", "question_index": 24, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he wasn't satisfied. It was something missing. And during the break - we know they always give us a little break for tea or whatever to rest our voices, you know. And I did - I was kidding with "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520606", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Lavern Baker", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer LaVern Baker", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well, why don't we listen to \"Tweedlee Dee\"? And this is my guest LaVern Baker.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "- that's how that got in there, you know. It was just something missing that he wasn't - and he's like that now, you know? He knows what he like. And if he don't hear it, he'll keep pushing, you know."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520606", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Lavern Baker", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer LaVern Baker", "question_index": 26, "text": "That's LaVern Baker, as recorded in 1955, a song that went up to No. 14 on the charts. A big hit for you. Now, how did you feel when you were given the song? Did you like the song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Tweedlee, tweedlee, tweedlee dee. I'm as happy as can be. Jiminy Cricket, Jiminy Jack. You make my heart go clickety-clack. Tweedlee, tweedlee, tweedlee dee. Tweedlee, tweedlee, tweedlee dot"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520606", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Lavern Baker", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer LaVern Baker", "question_index": 27, "text": "What was the yes and what was the no?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes and no."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520606", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Lavern Baker", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer LaVern Baker", "question_index": 28, "text": "The lyric? Or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it just didn't make any sense to me, OK, you know? And..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520606", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Lavern Baker", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer LaVern Baker", "question_index": 29, "text": "At the beginning, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, the lyric. The lyric. The music was OK. We had to find the music to really fit it, you know. So I came up with a suggestion of Brazil (ph), if you notice..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520606", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Lavern Baker", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer LaVern Baker", "question_index": 30, "text": "Georgia Gibbs' cover of your record went up to No. 2 on the charts.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, (vocalizing). So, you know, and that's why I was so upset when Georgia Gibbs covered my record, because we worked very hard to stay away from the main track of Brazil - just a little tastes of i"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520606", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Lavern Baker", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer LaVern Baker", "question_index": 31, "text": "Now, she was a white singer...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know. It was so many people had - they thought they had the original, and they didn't. They had hers."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520606", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Lavern Baker", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer LaVern Baker", "question_index": 32, "text": "...Recording your hit.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520606", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Lavern Baker", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer LaVern Baker", "question_index": 33, "text": "Were there stations that would play the white singer's version of it that wouldn't play yours?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520606", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Lavern Baker", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer LaVern Baker", "question_index": 34, "text": "We're listening to my 1991 interview with LaVern Baker. We'll hear more of it after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. And there were some of them that played hers, and after they found out she wasn't the original, they wouldn't play it anymore, you know. This happened in the whole state of Illinois and Mich"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520606", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Lavern Baker", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer LaVern Baker", "question_index": 35, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with rhythm and blues singer LaVern Baker. She was one of Atlantic Records' first big success stories with hits like \"Jim Dandy,\" \"Bumble Bee\" and \"Tweedlee Dee.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. And there were some of them that played hers, and after they found out she wasn't the original, they wouldn't play it anymore, you know. This happened in the whole state of Illinois and Mich"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520606", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Lavern Baker", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer LaVern Baker", "question_index": 36, "text": "In the 1950s, you recorded an entire album of Bessie Smith songs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. And there were some of them that played hers, and after they found out she wasn't the original, they wouldn't play it anymore, you know. This happened in the whole state of Illinois and Mich"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520606", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Lavern Baker", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer LaVern Baker", "question_index": 37, "text": "Well, it's a great album, and it was reissued recently on compact disc.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I loved it. Now, that's a recording date I enjoyed. I really did enjoy it. I love the songs. And after I listened to Bessie Smith, and even now that I'm older and when I do her numbers, I sound mo"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520606", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Lavern Baker", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer LaVern Baker", "question_index": 38, "text": "So let's play something off of it. This is the opening track, and this is \"Pigfoot.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520606", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Lavern Baker", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer LaVern Baker", "question_index": 39, "text": "That sounds really terrific.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Twenty-five cents? No, honey. I wouldn't pay 25 cents to go in nowhere. Listen here. (Singing) Up in Harlem every Saturday night, when the highbrows get together, it's just too tight. They all congreg"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520606", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Lavern Baker", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer LaVern Baker", "question_index": 40, "text": "Was Bessie Smith a big influence on you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520606", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Lavern Baker", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer LaVern Baker", "question_index": 41, "text": "LaVern Baker, I thank you very much for talking with us. It's really been fun to hear from you. Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I - well, let's say singers from that era did, you know? And then my mom and my grandmom, they were all gospel singers in church. So naturally, I grew up in church, you know, that's where most of "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520606", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Lavern Baker", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer LaVern Baker", "question_index": 42, "text": "LaVern Baker recorded in 1991. She died in 1997 at the age of 67. Our R&B, rockabilly and early rock 'n' roll series continues through Labor Day. If you'd like to hear parts of the series you missed, including our interviews with Scotty Moore, Elvis Presley's guitarist, Carl Perkins, who wrote and made the first recording of \"Blue Suede Shoes,\" Johnny Cash and singer Etta James, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of interviews. And to find out what's happening behind the scenes of our show, get our producers' recommendations for what to watch, read and listen to, subscribe to our free newsletter at whyy.org/freshair.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I'd like to thank you very, very much, and you have a nice day."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5520606", "date": "2025-08-28", "guest": "Lavern Baker", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer LaVern Baker", "question_index": 43, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Briger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Anna Bauman and John Sheehan. Special thanks to Heidi Saman for her work on today's show. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson. Susan Nyakundi directed today's show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Goss.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I'd like to thank you very, very much, and you have a nice day."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 0, "text": "Now, you also sang - before you started recording, you sang at Amateur Night at the Apollo...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was born in Henderson, North Carolina, so I wasn't familiar with the street-singing thing until I came to New York, which - I was about 11 years old when my parents first moved to New York. And I he"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 1, "text": "...Theater in Harlem. Did you all have matching suits in your group?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 2, "text": "Oh, great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, we had - what did we have? We had pink jackets."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 3, "text": "Did you save up for the suits?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know, right? That's what I said - pink jackets and black shirt and black trousers. I mean, it was a sight to behold. Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 4, "text": "Now, you sang with The Crowns...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, we did. What happened was that our parents gave us some money for it, 'cause we were all, like, in school, you know? So our parents gave us money to go and buy these little uniform jackets and s"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 5, "text": "...The Five Crowns. And you sang bass before you started singing lead. Can your voice still go that low?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 6, "text": "Did it have a certain prestige to be the bass man in a vocal group?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it can. I'm naturally a bass-baritone, so I can sing bass still, I think, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 7, "text": "You went from bass singer with The Crowns to lead singer with The Drifters.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, girls always thought so. Girls like the bass singer, I guess because they have that more mature depth to his voice. And at that time, you have to realize that most of the bass things were done i"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 8, "text": "And before I ask you to tell us a story about how The Crowns became the new Drifters and how you got to sing lead, I want to play the first song that you recorded singing lead as the lead singer of The Drifters. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 9, "text": "...This is \"There Goes My Baby.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 10, "text": "That's Ben E. King singing lead with The Drifters on \"There Goes My Baby.\" So tell us how The Crowns, who you sang with, became The Drifters.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Vocalizing, singing) There she goes. (Vocalizing, singing) There she goes. (Vocalizing). (Singing) There goes my baby moving on down the line, wondering where, wondering where, wondering where she is"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 11, "text": "Now, he had just, what, fired Clyde McPhatter...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's one of those strange stories, really. I joined The Crowns because the guy that was managing them, by the name of Lover Patterson, lived across the street from my father's restaurant. So h"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 12, "text": "...Who had been the lead singer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He fired..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 13, "text": "Right. So Clyde McPhatter had left the group, and then the producer fired the rest of The Drifters.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, well, what had happened in that, I think - Clyde really wasn't in the group at that time. Clyde had more or less gone solo, but the other members were in the group. And he had, I guess, had prob"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 14, "text": "That's the way it went.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Fired the rest of the group."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 15, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 16, "text": "And when the producer decided that your group would be the next Drifters, did they do anything different with you or tell you to do anything different for you to become Drifters?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 17, "text": "You got booed because the fans were expecting the other Drifters.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not really. I think that was the strange thing about the whole situation, is that when we became the new set of Drifters, there weren't any instructions at all given to us. You know, we used to go on "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 18, "text": "And here you were, with no explanation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, exactly."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. Exactly. Well, it's like going to see The Four - I always say it's like going to see The Four Tops and all of a sudden, the curtains open and there's four guys about 17 years old. I mean"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 20, "text": "Now, when you were telling us about The Crowns, you had sung bass with The Crowns, but you ended up singing lead when The Crowns became The Drifters.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...That's the kind of thing that you would face. Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 21, "text": "How did you get to sing lead?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 22, "text": "Stuck", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wrote the song \"There Goes My Baby\" while we was on the road. And when I got back to New York, I showed it to Jerry Leiber and Mike Stoller, who produced \"The Date\" (ph). And while we were in the st"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 23, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wrote the song \"There Goes My Baby\" while we was on the road. And when I got back to New York, I showed it to Jerry Leiber and Mike Stoller, who produced \"The Date\" (ph). And while we were in the st"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 24, "text": "Well, I want to play another song that you recorded with The Drifters, and this is \"Save The Last Dance For Me.\" Of course, you're singing lead on it. This is a song that made it to No. 1 both on the R&B charts and on the pop charts, which was a pretty big deal, really.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, stuck. Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well, that still sounds very terrific.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You can dance every dance with the guy who gives you the eye and let him hold you tight. You can smile every smile for the man who held your hand 'neath the pale moonlight. But don't forget "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 26, "text": "I never got to see The Drifters perform in the early '60s, and I was wondering. We were talking a little bit earlier about choreography. Did you have a lot of choreography in your act?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not a lot. We did - there are steps that I call short steps. And short steps are done, like, by groups like Platters and Drifters and - and then the fast, wide steps are done - like, Gladys Knight &am"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 28, "text": "You never took off your jacket and threw it into the audience?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...To do the split and stuff like that, you know? I left all that stuff out. I don't know that. I don't know nothing about doing the split. I could never get into that. Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 29, "text": "Did you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did that."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 30, "text": "I used to love that at the rock 'n' roll shows...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I did that. That was - yeah, that was - those things was great. That was easy, you know, and throwing your handkerchief away and stuff. I did those brave things, you know?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 31, "text": "...When performers did that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it was - yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 32, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Lot of fun, that."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 33, "text": "You know what I'd like to do? I want to ask you about how you started to perform solo. So why don't I play some of the record that launched your solo career?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ben E. King speaking to Terry Gross in 1988. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1988 interview with Ben E. King, former lead singer of The Drifters and"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 34, "text": "And this is \"Spanish Harlem.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 35, "text": "Ben E. King, would you explain how you left The Drifters and started singing solo?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) There is a rose in Spanish Harlem, a red rose up in Spanish Harlem. It is a special one. It's never seen the sun. It only comes out when the moon is on the run and all the stars are gleaming"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 36, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, once we got involved with all the recordings and we had all the hit records that we had once we started with the Drifters situation, we were on salary as the new set of Drifters, and we were mak"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 37, "text": "But did you think of \"Spanish Harlem\" as a solo record or a Drifters record?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was great at firing people, you know? And I walked out of the office assuming that the other guys would follow, and they didn't. The only guy that followed me was the same one that came across the "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 38, "text": "I want to play one of your solo records that I think is one of the most dramatic-sounding pop songs that I know. And this is \"I (Who Have Nothing).\" And this is really high drama.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no, no. To get back to that problem, what happened that - it was - it should've been a Drifter record. Jerry Leiber and Mike Stoller, who - at that time, we had developed a very strong friends"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 39, "text": "I love this record", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 40, "text": ". As everyone will hear, there are great pauses in this record, and when you come on, there's, like, timpani behind you. Were the pauses written in? Did you decide how long to pause? Did you know the timpani was going to come in with you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 41, "text": "Well, let's hear it. This is Ben E. King singing \"I (Who Have Nothing).\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Some of the things I would rehearse with Jerry Leiber and Mike Stoller, but that was just three guys around a piano. So most of the performing things that was done on the records were just the way I f"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 42, "text": "It breaks me up every time I hear that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I, I who have nothing, I, I who am no one adore you and want you so. I'm just a no one with nothing to give you but, oh, I love you. He, he buys you diamonds, bright, sparkling diamonds. But"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 43, "text": "Were you as emotionally involved in that recording as you sound?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 44, "text": "Now, you also recorded \"Stand By Me\"...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I think - what happened in that is that my manager and I - to make a long story short, my manager and I at the time - his name is Al Weil (ph). We were traveling over to Europe to get myself esta"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 45, "text": "...As a solo record. Now, you wrote that record.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 46, "text": "You wrote - and someone named Elmo Glick gets...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 47, "text": "...Co-writing credits.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Elmo Glick."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 48, "text": "Did he co-write it with you or was that someone who just...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 49, "text": "Oh, no", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Elmo Glick was a silent partner for years. Elmo Glick is the pen name - I found this out maybe four or five years ago - of Jerry Leiber and Mike Stoller."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 50, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Elmo Glick was a silent partner for years. Elmo Glick is the pen name - I found this out maybe four or five years ago - of Jerry Leiber and Mike Stoller."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 51, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Those were my ghostwriters, and I didn't know it for many, many years."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 52, "text": "Well, a lot of artists were deprived altogether of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it just goes to show you, right? Yeah. But yeah, as I said earlier, you know, we were just kids out of Harlem with no knowledge at all about legalities and what should happen and what shouldn't hap"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 53, "text": "...Writing credits, so...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 54, "text": "So I guess, in some respects, it was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, God, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 55, "text": "You were lucky in a sense, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I were lucky."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 56, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm one of the lucky ones, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521336", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Ben E King", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0Singer Ben E. King", "question_index": 57, "text": "Well, I love your singing, and I thank you so very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm one of the lucky ones."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521992", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Wilbert Harrison", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Lyricist Jerry Leiber and composer Mike Stoller", "question_index": 0, "text": "Well, Jerry Leiber, Mike Stoller, welcome to FRESH AIR. The record we've been listening to, Big Mama Thornton's recording of \"Hound Dog,\" was your first major hit as songwriters and producers. What was it about her that led to this song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You ain't nothing but a hound dog, been snoopin' round my door. You ain't nothing but a hound dog, been snoopin' round my door. You can wag your tail, but I ain't gonna feed you no more. You"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521992", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Wilbert Harrison", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Lyricist Jerry Leiber and composer Mike Stoller", "question_index": 1, "text": "Well, how did you come up with this song, though?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Mike and I were invited to Johnny Otis' rehearsal studio to listen to and look at some of his artists. Big Mama was one of them, and she was really formidable. She was scary-looking. She was big"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521992", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Wilbert Harrison", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Lyricist Jerry Leiber and composer Mike Stoller", "question_index": 2, "text": "So you were thinking four-letter word, epithet, and what you came up, though, with hound dog.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Mike was driving, and I was banging on the roof of the car. And I was trying to come up with something nasty that would be at the same time playable that wouldn't be censored, you know. And the "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521992", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Wilbert Harrison", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Lyricist Jerry Leiber and composer Mike Stoller", "question_index": 3, "text": "Mike, let me ask you how you think Elvis handled this song differently from Big Mama Thornton.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, which sort of, you know, made it - it felt right, and it seemed like it would be passable."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521992", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Wilbert Harrison", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Lyricist Jerry Leiber and composer Mike Stoller", "question_index": 4, "text": "A lot of the songs that you wrote over the years were novelty songs - songs like \"Charlie Brown,\" \"Love Potion No. 9,\" \"Yakety Yak,\" \"Poison Ivy.\" I think I just named all Coasters songs here. But how did you get so involved with novelty songs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "How he handled it differently? Well, he handled it very differently. He didn't sing it in the same tradition of blues intonation that Big Mama used. And also the lyrics were considerably different bec"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521992", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Wilbert Harrison", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Lyricist Jerry Leiber and composer Mike Stoller", "question_index": 5, "text": "One of the things that you are famous for having pioneered was bringing a string section to rock 'n' roll or to rhythm and blues.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Jerry Leiber and Mike Stoller speaking to Terry Gross in 1991. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to our R&B, rockabilly and rock 'n' roll week and Terry's 19"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521992", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Wilbert Harrison", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Lyricist Jerry Leiber and composer Mike Stoller", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yeah. Let me ask you. You know, on the The Drifters' recording...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was Mike's fault."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521992", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Wilbert Harrison", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Lyricist Jerry Leiber and composer Mike Stoller", "question_index": 7, "text": "...Of \"There Goes My Baby,\" that's the classic example of you bringing strings on. What went through your mind to do it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521992", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Wilbert Harrison", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Lyricist Jerry Leiber and composer Mike Stoller", "question_index": 8, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know if you get the pun, but he's been saying this for many years, and I always thought it was funny..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521992", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Wilbert Harrison", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Lyricist Jerry Leiber and composer Mike Stoller", "question_index": 9, "text": "Now, another thing that happened on this record was you introduced a Latin rhythm that you used...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "'Cause Jerry Wexler wouldn't spring for six violins and two celli."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521992", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Wilbert Harrison", "title": "Roots of Rock:\u00a0Lyricist Jerry Leiber and composer Mike Stoller", "question_index": 10, "text": "My guests were the songwriting and production team of Jerry Leiber and Mike Stoller. I want to thank you both very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Bo-bo, doo-doo, doo-doo, doo-doo. There she goes. Doo-doo, doo-doo, doo-doo. There she goes. Doo-doo, doo-doo, doo-doo. Bo-bo. Doo-doo, doo-doo. Bo-bo. Doo-doo, doo-doo. There goes my baby, "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521998", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Roots of R&B: Record producer Jerry Wexler", "question_index": 0, "text": "I want to get started with your work with Aretha Franklin. I think that's a good place to start. Now, she had made about - oh, I don't know - 10 or so recordings on Columbia Records before coming...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Ooh. What you want, baby, I got it. What you need, you know I got it. All I'm askin' is for a little respect when you come home (just a little bit). Hey baby (just a little bit) when you get"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521998", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Roots of R&B: Record producer Jerry Wexler", "question_index": 1, "text": "...To Atlantic. John Hammond produced her, and he was producing her like a jazz singer, kind of in the Dinah Washington tradition.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521998", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Roots of R&B: Record producer Jerry Wexler", "question_index": 2, "text": "You - when she came to Atlantic, you worked with her. You heard something completely different. What did you hear when you started producing her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521998", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Roots of R&B: Record producer Jerry Wexler", "question_index": 3, "text": "Well, you sat her down at the piano.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I heard the Aretha Franklin who sang in church, who sang \"Precious Lord\" when she was 13 years old. And a man in the audience was so overcome he said, listen at her. Listen at her. And I listene"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521998", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Roots of R&B: Record producer Jerry Wexler", "question_index": 4, "text": "You had her play herself, which I don't think she'd done on the records before that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521998", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Roots of R&B: Record producer Jerry Wexler", "question_index": 5, "text": "And then you took her down to Muscle Shoals, to Alabama, to the same place, actually, that Arthur Alexander started before he became...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not very much. Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521998", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Roots of R&B: Record producer Jerry Wexler", "question_index": 6, "text": "What was it like at Muscle Shoals? What did you hear there in that Southern sound that you wanted?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly, and I want you to know that I'm not one of the people who didn't pay him."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521998", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Roots of R&B: Record producer Jerry Wexler", "question_index": 7, "text": "So you took Aretha down to Muscle Shoals, recorded, like, a track and a half with her, and there was this really big fight.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was the way they recorded, which was ad-lib recording, without written arrangements - building the song from the get-go, just from the chords. And the musicians made a fabulous contribution. "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521998", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Roots of R&B: Record producer Jerry Wexler", "question_index": 8, "text": "What was the fight about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521998", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Roots of R&B: Record producer Jerry Wexler", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it had to do with Ted White, who was Aretha's husband at the time, who got into dangerous, over-friendly drinking from the same jug with a gentleman who can best be described as a card-carrying re"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521998", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Roots of R&B: Record producer Jerry Wexler", "question_index": 10, "text": "Not even vocal.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521998", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Roots of R&B: Record producer Jerry Wexler", "question_index": 11, "text": "You produced \"Respect.\" Is there a story behind how the sock it to me's landed on there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No vocal. No piano. No background vocal. And then we finished by bringing Aretha and her sisters into the studio. And it was a pretty good piece of extemporization, in that starting with this very min"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521998", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Roots of R&B: Record producer Jerry Wexler", "question_index": 12, "text": "Now, your first studio was actually the office...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But it was her transmutation of Otis Redding's little Southern song. As a matter of fact, I was mixing the record in our studio on Broadway, and Otis walked in. He said, that little gal done took my s"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521998", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Roots of R&B: Record producer Jerry Wexler", "question_index": 13, "text": "...Of Atlantic Records.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521998", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Roots of R&B: Record producer Jerry Wexler", "question_index": 14, "text": "Who did you - 'cause when Atlantic was young, you didn't have a studio. So what'd you do? You'd move out the chairs into the hallway...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521998", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Roots of R&B: Record producer Jerry Wexler", "question_index": 15, "text": "...Whenever you want to record?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521998", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Roots of R&B: Record producer Jerry Wexler", "question_index": 16, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We did have a studio. It was our office, and it was a studio because we had equipment in it. And..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521998", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Roots of R&B: Record producer Jerry Wexler", "question_index": 17, "text": "We're just going to adjust your mic a little bit there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My partner Ahmet Ertegun and I shared this big room. We had two desks that were catty-corner, canted toward each other. And what we would do is push them against the wall, stack them. And then our eng"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521998", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Roots of R&B: Record producer Jerry Wexler", "question_index": 18, "text": "There's so much that a record producer is up against, often the real unexpected. And I think a great example of that is when you were producing The Drifters' version of \"Under The Boardwalk.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521998", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Roots of R&B: Record producer Jerry Wexler", "question_index": 19, "text": "Let's start with the beginning of that story. First of all, they didn't want to even record the song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521998", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Roots of R&B: Record producer Jerry Wexler", "question_index": 20, "text": "You gave them an ultimatum.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521998", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Roots of R&B: Record producer Jerry Wexler", "question_index": 21, "text": "Why'd you like the song so much?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And I said, this song has to be done. And I said, you can pick all the rest. I said, or else ain't no session. Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521998", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Roots of R&B: Record producer Jerry Wexler", "question_index": 22, "text": "OK. Good enough reason.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because it sounded like a hit."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521998", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Roots of R&B: Record producer Jerry Wexler", "question_index": 23, "text": "OK. So what happened to the lead singer the night before...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521998", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Roots of R&B: Record producer Jerry Wexler", "question_index": 24, "text": "...The session?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521998", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Roots of R&B: Record producer Jerry Wexler", "question_index": 25, "text": "And you actually did a lot of that yourself, didn't you? Packed up the car and drove around promoting the record.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The lead singer at the time was a man named Rudy Lewis. You know, we had three fantastic lead singers in The Drifters. The first was Clyde McPhatter. The second was Rudy Lewis. His name is not as well"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521998", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Roots of R&B: Record producer Jerry Wexler", "question_index": 26, "text": "'Cause you wanted it to break so bad. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521998", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Roots of R&B: Record producer Jerry Wexler", "question_index": 27, "text": "Now, you worked with Otis Redding a lot during...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. And we did a lot of that in those days."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521998", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Roots of R&B: Record producer Jerry Wexler", "question_index": 28, "text": "...His career.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521998", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Roots of R&B: Record producer Jerry Wexler", "question_index": 29, "text": "Now, you saw him change a lot as he became bigger.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was not Otis' producer. I want you to realize that. Otis was produced at Stax Records in Memphis by that great team who - Jim Stewart and Booker T. & the M.G.'s with - especially Steve Cropper."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521998", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Roots of R&B: Record producer Jerry Wexler", "question_index": 30, "text": "Now, what was he like in the beginning before he was very famous? What was he like on stage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521998", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Roots of R&B: Record producer Jerry Wexler", "question_index": 31, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Otis was very simple, very unaffected, but he had the magic. And when he came to New York after his first hit record, I picked him up at the airport. No roadies, nobody, no nothing, just sole Otis. An"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521998", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Roots of R&B: Record producer Jerry Wexler", "question_index": 32, "text": "That's really great. No, you know, we were talking before how you brought Aretha Franklin down to Muscle Shoals, Alabama. You brought Wilson Pickett down to Memphis to record.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Who used to be described as a stage full of Jackie Wilsons."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521998", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Roots of R&B: Record producer Jerry Wexler", "question_index": 33, "text": "You really loved that Southern sound that was coming out of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521998", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Roots of R&B: Record producer Jerry Wexler", "question_index": 34, "text": "...Some of the bands there. Why'd you think of bringing him there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521998", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Roots of R&B: Record producer Jerry Wexler", "question_index": 35, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, 'cause everything was winding down in New York. I mean, it was entropy. We just couldn't get out of our own way. We had been very successful year after year. But our style of recording was a reg"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521998", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Roots of R&B: Record producer Jerry Wexler", "question_index": 36, "text": "So you heard that it would work...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And this Southern style of recording, where it's just - all you have is chord indications. You go out. You sing a lick. Do it like this, fellas. Bang. Here's the new chord, you know. But maybe that's "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5521998", "date": "2025-08-29", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Roots of R&B: Record producer Jerry Wexler", "question_index": 37, "text": "...With Wilson Pickett.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I heard the sound."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522060", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Dion And The Belmonts", "title": "Roots of Rock: Pop hitmaker Dion", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today, we conclude our archive series, R&B, Rockabilly and Early Rock 'n' Roll, with Allen Toussaint, who we'll hear from later and Dion. If you've ever dismissed Dion as a former teen idol whose talent or relevance didn't survive the oldies era, what you hear today is likely to change your mind. He's a great singer, deeply influenced by the blues and country music. I interviewed him in 2000. He brought his guitar, and we're going to hear him perform some of his own songs and some of the blues and country songs that influenced him. Dion had his first hit, \"I Wonder Why,\" in 1958, with the doo-wop group the Belmonts, named after Belmont Avenue in the Bronx neighborhood in which they lived. Dion's other hits included \"A Teenager In Love,\" \"Where Or When,\" \"Donna The Prima Donna,\" \"Runaround Sue,\" \"The Wanderer\" and, later, \"Abraham, Martin and John.\" His fan Bruce Springsteen gave the introduction when Dion was inducted into the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame in 1989. Dion recorded a couple of Springsteen songs on his album \"Deja Nu,\" which was released in 2000 and was the occasion for our interview. We started with a track from that album, Dion singing Springsteen's \"If I Should Fall Behind.\"", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522060", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Dion And The Belmonts", "title": "Roots of Rock: Pop hitmaker Dion", "question_index": 1, "text": "Dion, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) We said we'd walk together, baby, come what may, that come the twilight, should we lose our way, if as we're walking a hand should slip free, I'll wait for you, and should I fall behind, wai"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522060", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Dion And The Belmonts", "title": "Roots of Rock: Pop hitmaker Dion", "question_index": 2, "text": "What's it been like for you finding new material? I think a lot of people, when they think of your songs, they think of the songs you did when you were very young that were some of them very explicitly teenage songs like \"Teenager In Love\" or even...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Good to be here."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522060", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Dion And The Belmonts", "title": "Roots of Rock: Pop hitmaker Dion", "question_index": 3, "text": "...\"The Wanderer.\" It's a song about - it's a song of a young man who in some ways is real hot stuff. So, I mean, you're not a teenager anymore, and the song that we just heard is a real adult song. Are you - has it been difficult for you to find songs that reach your audience that you like and that are adult songs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522060", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Dion And The Belmonts", "title": "Roots of Rock: Pop hitmaker Dion", "question_index": 4, "text": "Let me go back to the beginning with you when you were first listening to music. You wrote in your autobiography that Hank Williams really influenced you early on. When you were a kid growing up in the Bronx, what did you hear in Hank Williams?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. Songs, to me, have always been kind of like a diary, you know. Say, when I did \"Teenager In Love,\" maybe I was 16. Those questions in that song, even though it's a very simple song and i"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522060", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Dion And The Belmonts", "title": "Roots of Rock: Pop hitmaker Dion", "question_index": 5, "text": "No, really, but it sounds like what I'm hearing from you is that you heard country music through Hank Williams. You heard all these blues recordings.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Hank Williams seemed, like, so total to me, so committed to the lyric. He would actually rip the ends of the words off at the, you know - the end of the sentence. It sounded like he'd bite into "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522060", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Dion And The Belmonts", "title": "Roots of Rock: Pop hitmaker Dion", "question_index": 6, "text": "And what you found was this kind of Bronx version...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522060", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Dion And The Belmonts", "title": "Roots of Rock: Pop hitmaker Dion", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yeah. That - well, that doo-wop was out for you, this really, like, for you, native version of all the music that you were loving.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And a little doo-wop."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522060", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Dion And The Belmonts", "title": "Roots of Rock: Pop hitmaker Dion", "question_index": 8, "text": "But it was authentic 'cause it was your music. You weren't just doing stuff in the manner of somebody else.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. It kind of..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522060", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Dion And The Belmonts", "title": "Roots of Rock: Pop hitmaker Dion", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thought I'd get you at that, Terry."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522060", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Dion And The Belmonts", "title": "Roots of Rock: Pop hitmaker Dion", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But we had a lot of characters, you know? So - and they seemed bigger than life, like \"The Wanderer\" - his name was Jackie Burns (ph). He was a sailor who got tattoos all over him, you know? And every"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522060", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Dion And The Belmonts", "title": "Roots of Rock: Pop hitmaker Dion", "question_index": 11, "text": "What did you think of him? Did you like him or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But this guy would walk around with his tank top on with all these names all over. You know, he was like..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522060", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Dion And The Belmonts", "title": "Roots of Rock: Pop hitmaker Dion", "question_index": 12, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was a - he was kind of a loner. He would like - I didn't know him that well, but he just seemed bigger than life 'cause he was older than me and he was in the Navy."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522060", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Dion And The Belmonts", "title": "Roots of Rock: Pop hitmaker Dion", "question_index": 13, "text": "Before you started listening to rhythm and blues and blues music and stuff like that, I know when you were 11, you used to sing in a bar in your neighborhood, and it sounded like you were a real local attraction. What did you sing when you were 11?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he would come back and he'd have this kind of - you know, and I kind of featured myself, you know, kind of, like a street corner poet, you know, burnt to the bone with the fire of this new rock 'n"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522060", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Dion And The Belmonts", "title": "Roots of Rock: Pop hitmaker Dion", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ah, yeah. I would do - I knew 70 Hank Williams songs."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522060", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Dion And The Belmonts", "title": "Roots of Rock: Pop hitmaker Dion", "question_index": 15, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Would you believe that? I would even sing his Luke the Drifter series, you know? (Singing, playing guitar) In the world's mighty gallery of pictures hang the scenes that are painted from life. I was, "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522060", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Dion And The Belmonts", "title": "Roots of Rock: Pop hitmaker Dion", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thought I was a philosopher. I didn't even know what I was singing about. I sang \"Honky Tonk Blues.\" I sang \"Jambalaya.\" If you - an Italian from the Bronx - I had no idea what jambalaya meant, but "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522060", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Dion And The Belmonts", "title": "Roots of Rock: Pop hitmaker Dion", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I knew what rigatoni was."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522060", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Dion And The Belmonts", "title": "Roots of Rock: Pop hitmaker Dion", "question_index": 18, "text": "Why don't we pause here and listen to the first Dion and The Belmonts recording, which is \"I Wonder Why\" with those great harmonies?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But gumbo, I had no idea. And, you know, it - I got caught up in this music. And it - I guess it's like anybody else when you get caught up into something, it just took me away."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522060", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Dion And The Belmonts", "title": "Roots of Rock: Pop hitmaker Dion", "question_index": 19, "text": "Yeah. Let's hear it. And what year is this, Dion?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a good attitude song."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522060", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Dion And The Belmonts", "title": "Roots of Rock: Pop hitmaker Dion", "question_index": 20, "text": "And you were how old?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is '57 - beginning."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522060", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Dion And The Belmonts", "title": "Roots of Rock: Pop hitmaker Dion", "question_index": 21, "text": "OK, let's hear it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was 17."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522060", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Dion And The Belmonts", "title": "Roots of Rock: Pop hitmaker Dion", "question_index": 22, "text": "We're listening to my interview with Dion, recorded in 2000. We'll be back with more music and conversation after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded with Dion in 2000. He brought his guitar and sang some songs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Don't know why I love you like I do. Don't know why I do. Don't know why I love you. Don't know why I care. I just want your love to share. I wonder why I love you like I do. Is it because I"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522060", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Dion And The Belmonts", "title": "Roots of Rock: Pop hitmaker Dion", "question_index": 23, "text": "There's a song that you wrote on the new CD that I really want to play 'cause I think your singing now is really similar to what it's always been. I don't think - I think some of the material has changed, but I think your singing still has everything in it that you've been talking about - all those influences, the urgency that you've been talking about. So, let me play a song from the new CD. But before I do, I want you to introduce it for us. And this is called \"Every Day (That I'm With You).\" Tell us about writing this. What inspired it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Don't know why I love you like I do. Don't know why I do. Don't know why I love you. Don't know why I care. I just want your love to share. I wonder why I love you like I do. Is it because I"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522060", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Dion And The Belmonts", "title": "Roots of Rock: Pop hitmaker Dion", "question_index": 24, "text": "And I just want to say for our listeners who don't know the end of the story that Buddy Holly took this plane that you decided not to take, the plane crashed, killing Buddy Holly, Ritchie Valens and The Big Bopper.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this is a story, but I'm going to tell it. The CD is called Deja Nu. And the song that you're about to play - in fact, the whole CD, the whole - all the songs in it are a movie soundtrack for a "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522060", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Dion And The Belmonts", "title": "Roots of Rock: Pop hitmaker Dion", "question_index": 25, "text": "So - and the other thing is so Chaz Palmernteri's movie is your biography? That's what he's trying...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522060", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Dion And The Belmonts", "title": "Roots of Rock: Pop hitmaker Dion", "question_index": 26, "text": "Around your biography - autobiography \"The Wanderer.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He wrote a screenplay around this - around..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522060", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Dion And The Belmonts", "title": "Roots of Rock: Pop hitmaker Dion", "question_index": 27, "text": "Alright.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522060", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Dion And The Belmonts", "title": "Roots of Rock: Pop hitmaker Dion", "question_index": 28, "text": "Soundtrack of your life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So that's what the - this whole album is. It's actually a soundtrack. In fact, I don't think..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522060", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Dion And The Belmonts", "title": "Roots of Rock: Pop hitmaker Dion", "question_index": 29, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think it would have came out as good if I tried to write songs and put out an album. I kind of did it inadvertently. I kind of backed into it..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522060", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Dion And The Belmonts", "title": "Roots of Rock: Pop hitmaker Dion", "question_index": 30, "text": "So, let's hear \"Every Day (That I'm With You).\" This song that's, I guess, inspired by Buddy Holly and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know? And it's interesting the way it came out, you know?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522060", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Dion And The Belmonts", "title": "Roots of Rock: Pop hitmaker Dion", "question_index": 31, "text": "...About that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522060", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Dion And The Belmonts", "title": "Roots of Rock: Pop hitmaker Dion", "question_index": 32, "text": "...Chapter of your life. This is a song written and performed by Dion from his new CD, Deja Nu.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522060", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Dion And The Belmonts", "title": "Roots of Rock: Pop hitmaker Dion", "question_index": 33, "text": "My interview with Dion was recorded in 2000. He turned 86 in July. Last year, he released the album \"Girl Friends,\" featuring duets with female singers. This year, he released the single \"New York Minute\" and had a new book called \"The Rock And Roll Philosopher,\" a collection of conversations with a friend. After a break, we'll conclude our archive series, R&B, Rockabilly and Early Rock 'n' Roll with Allen Toussaint, the great New Orleans pianist, singer, songwriter and producer. And jazz historian Kevin Whitehead will remember alto saxophonist Art Pepper, who was born 100 years ago today. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Every day, I stare down trouble. Heaven knows it's what I do. Every day, I raise my fist for the struggle. Every day that I'm with you. Every day, I wake up hungry. Yeah, and I try to get my"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522069", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Allen Toussaint", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0New Orleans songwriter and producer Allen Toussaint", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. To conclude our archive series R&B, Rockabilly and Early Rock 'n' Roll, we have the interview I recorded with Allen Toussaint, who was in our studio at the piano and sang some of the early hit songs he wrote. Toussaint was an important but mostly behind the scenes figure in New Orleans rhythm and blues during the '50s and '60s, when R&B was shaping the sound of early rock 'n' roll. Early in his career, he was the chief songwriter, producer, arranger and pianist for Minit Records, which at the time was the most important New Orleans record company. He and a partner formed their own label in the '60s. The songs he wrote and/or arranged and produced include \"Working In The Coal Mine,\" \"Mother-In-Law,\" \"Lipstick Traces,\" \"Ruler Of My Heart,\" It's Raining,\" \"Right Place Wrong Time,\" \"Lady Marmalade,\" \"Yes We Can\" and \"Southern Nights.\" Among the musicians he worked with were the Meters, the Rolling Stones, Paul Simon, the Band and Paul McCartney. After stepping out from behind the scenes, Toussaint also became known for his own recordings and performances, including his collaboration with Elvis Costello. Toussaint died in 2015 at the age of 77. I spoke with him in 1988.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522069", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Allen Toussaint", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0New Orleans songwriter and producer Allen Toussaint", "question_index": 1, "text": "Allen Toussaint, welcome back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522069", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Allen Toussaint", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0New Orleans songwriter and producer Allen Toussaint", "question_index": 2, "text": "I'm going to ask you, I'm going to start with a request", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522069", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Allen Toussaint", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0New Orleans songwriter and producer Allen Toussaint", "question_index": 3, "text": "to play one of the songs - one of the first songs that was a big hit for you that you wrote, \"Mother-In-Law\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522069", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Allen Toussaint", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0New Orleans songwriter and producer Allen Toussaint", "question_index": 4, "text": "This was originally recorded by Ernie K-Doe.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes, it was one of our very first ones."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522069", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Allen Toussaint", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0New Orleans songwriter and producer Allen Toussaint", "question_index": 5, "text": "Could you play it for us your way? (PIANO PLAYING)", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522069", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Allen Toussaint", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0New Orleans songwriter and producer Allen Toussaint", "question_index": 6, "text": "So how old were you when you wrote that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) The worst person I know, mother-in-law, mother-in-law. She worries me so, mother-in-law, mother-in-law. Every time I open my mouth, she steps in and tries to put me out. How could she stoop "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522069", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Allen Toussaint", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0New Orleans songwriter and producer Allen Toussaint", "question_index": 7, "text": "Were you married?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, let's see. I guess 21 or 22."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522069", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Allen Toussaint", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0New Orleans songwriter and producer Allen Toussaint", "question_index": 8, "text": "Right", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522069", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Allen Toussaint", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0New Orleans songwriter and producer Allen Toussaint", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522069", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Allen Toussaint", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0New Orleans songwriter and producer Allen Toussaint", "question_index": 10, "text": "That's true. It really was at the time. Things have changed", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But mother-in-law was a national joke."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522069", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Allen Toussaint", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0New Orleans songwriter and producer Allen Toussaint", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But mother-in-law was a national joke."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522069", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Allen Toussaint", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0New Orleans songwriter and producer Allen Toussaint", "question_index": 12, "text": "That's right. So how did you first start writing songs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The mother-in-laws themselves weren't national jokes, but most comedians used to use that."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522069", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Allen Toussaint", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0New Orleans songwriter and producer Allen Toussaint", "question_index": 13, "text": "You know, I think two of your influences have been Fats Domino and Professor Longhair, two of the great New Orleans musicians. Do you think that - I mean, I think they can be heard in your style. Would you play something of theirs and tell us how they affected you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I came up imitating most people that I heard on the radio. I imitated most piano players, of course, and most all kinds of music. And after I would play and become totally saturated with it, I w"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522069", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Allen Toussaint", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0New Orleans songwriter and producer Allen Toussaint", "question_index": 14, "text": "Was it hard to learn that when you were young?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, he was very, very important to me."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522069", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Allen Toussaint", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0New Orleans songwriter and producer Allen Toussaint", "question_index": 15, "text": "Now, I remember one of your early recording sessions was filling in for Fats Domino because his piano track hadn't been laid down yet. You really could play in Fats Domino's style, Professor Longhair's and Ray Charles'. How did you learn how to play like Fats Domino?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not hard. It was very, very exciting. Once I heard it, I could get involved. It was just the idea of it, how unique it was to me. It was off the beaten path of most other things that were all generall"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522069", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Allen Toussaint", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0New Orleans songwriter and producer Allen Toussaint", "question_index": 16, "text": "Right, right, right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like the one, \"I Want You To Know,\" that I played on it."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522069", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Allen Toussaint", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0New Orleans songwriter and producer Allen Toussaint", "question_index": 17, "text": "That's really great", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Dave Bartholomew, who knew that I could play like most of the folk that were out at the time, called me in to play on a Fats Domino recording session. We were up to two tracks at that time, so we coul"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522069", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Allen Toussaint", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0New Orleans songwriter and producer Allen Toussaint", "question_index": 18, "text": ". My guest, if you're just joining us, is Allen Toussaint. And I should say, you know, I always, you know, whenever I've said your name, one day it would be Toussaint and one day it would be Toussaint. And so I asked you how I should really say it, and you said Toussaint. But your father's side of the family used to say Toussaint?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Dave Bartholomew, who knew that I could play like most of the folk that were out at the time, called me in to play on a Fats Domino recording session. We were up to two tracks at that time, so we coul"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522069", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Allen Toussaint", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0New Orleans songwriter and producer Allen Toussaint", "question_index": 19, "text": "It seems very common for New Orleans families to have different pronunciations of their names.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My father used to say Toussaint without a T on the end."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522069", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Allen Toussaint", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0New Orleans songwriter and producer Allen Toussaint", "question_index": 20, "text": "We're listening to my 1988 interview with Allen Toussaint. We'll hear more of it after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. Bagneris, Bagneris, yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522069", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Allen Toussaint", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0New Orleans songwriter and producer Allen Toussaint", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 1988 interview with Allen Toussaint, who first made his mark as one of the key songwriters, arrangers and producers in New Orleans R&B of the '50s and '60s.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Yeah. I know we can make it if we try. Oh, yes, we can. I know we can, can. Yes, we can. Great gosh almighty, yes, we can. I know we can, can."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522069", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Allen Toussaint", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0New Orleans songwriter and producer Allen Toussaint", "question_index": 22, "text": "I'm going to ask you to play another song of yours, a song that you wrote. Maybe do another one of your early hits.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Yeah. I know we can make it if we try. Oh, yes, we can. I know we can, can. Yes, we can. Great gosh almighty, yes, we can. I know we can, can."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522069", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Allen Toussaint", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0New Orleans songwriter and producer Allen Toussaint", "question_index": 23, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, \"Lipstick Traces.\" The guy, Benny Spellman, that sung the bass part on \"Mother-In-Law,\" he didn't know what it was worth at the time we were doing it. But when \"Mother-In-Law\" came out and sold "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522069", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Allen Toussaint", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0New Orleans songwriter and producer Allen Toussaint", "question_index": 24, "text": "He really owed you one after you wrote that for him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Your pretty brown eyes. You wavy hair. I won't go home no more 'cause you're not there. I've got it bad, like I told you before. I'm so in love with you. Don't leave me no more. Lipstick tra"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522069", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Allen Toussaint", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0New Orleans songwriter and producer Allen Toussaint", "question_index": 25, "text": "I love it when you can do both parts as you're singing the high part and the low part.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522069", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Allen Toussaint", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0New Orleans songwriter and producer Allen Toussaint", "question_index": 26, "text": "Now, another song you wrote that was a big hit, I guess it was the early '60s, \"Working In The Coal Mine.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you. Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522069", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Allen Toussaint", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0New Orleans songwriter and producer Allen Toussaint", "question_index": 27, "text": "Lee Dorsey recorded it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522069", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Allen Toussaint", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0New Orleans songwriter and producer Allen Toussaint", "question_index": 28, "text": "Now, I remember when I interviewed you a few months back, you explained that you had never been in a coal mine when you wrote this song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Lee Dorsey, yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522069", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Allen Toussaint", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0New Orleans songwriter and producer Allen Toussaint", "question_index": 29, "text": "Would you do it for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not only never been, I don't know no one - know anyone who's ever been in a coal mine. And I don't know why that came. Lee Dorsey was a great inspiration for me. When it was time to write for him, I w"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522069", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Allen Toussaint", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0New Orleans songwriter and producer Allen Toussaint", "question_index": 30, "text": "Good, that sounds great. Songwriter, pianist, producer, singer Allen Toussaint is my guest. And I'm going to ask you to do another song. You know, I've been listening to a lot of Irma Thomas lately. She has a new record out. And you wrote some of her early songs. And you wrote a song she sings on her new record, as a matter of fact. I'm going to ask you to sing one of her earlier songs that you wrote for her called \"It's Raining.\" Would you do that? (PIANO PLAYING)", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Working in the coal mine, going down, down, down. Working in the coal mine, about to slip down. Working in the coal mine, going down, down. Working in the coal mine, about to slip down. Five"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522069", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Allen Toussaint", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0New Orleans songwriter and producer Allen Toussaint", "question_index": 31, "text": "Is there a story behind writing this song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) It's raining so hard. Looks like it's going to rain all night. And this is the time I'd love to be holding you tight. I guess I'll have to accept the fact that you're not here. I wish this r"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522069", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Allen Toussaint", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0New Orleans songwriter and producer Allen Toussaint", "question_index": 32, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, with Irma, again, she was sitting right there that day. And it was raining. And Irma was a great inspiration for me. I could write for her all day long, and sometimes I did."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522069", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Allen Toussaint", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0New Orleans songwriter and producer Allen Toussaint", "question_index": 33, "text": "Well, it has really been such a pleasure to hear you play and sing. Thank you so much for joining us, really. Thank you very, very much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And she was sitting there, and it was raining, and I could see the rain hitting on the windowpane. And it was just perfect, yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5522069", "date": "2025-09-01", "guest": "Allen Toussaint", "title": "Roots of R&B:\u00a0New Orleans songwriter and producer Allen Toussaint", "question_index": 34, "text": "Allen Toussaint recorded in 1988. He died in 2015. He was 77. And with that, we conclude our archive series R&B, Rockabilly and Early Rock 'n' Roll. I hope you enjoyed it. After a break, our jazz historian Kevin Whitehead remembers alto saxophonist Art Pepper, who was born 100 years ago today. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My pleasure."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5544168", "date": "2025-09-17", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "How Charlie Kirk became a leader of the conservative youth movement", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The tragic assassination of conservative political activist Charlie Kirk seems to have divided America even more. President Donald Trump and some members of his administration started blaming the, quote, \"radical left\" before anything was even known about the killer's motivation. Democrats and Republicans have grown more worried about their own security, but many Americans who didn't follow Kirk or closely follow politics may not have known much about him until he was murdered. My guest Robert Draper profiled Charlie Kirk earlier this year in The New York Times magazine. Draper covers the political dynamics of the right wing. He's also profiled the right-wing extremist Nick Fuentes, who was a rival of Kirk's, with a large following of young white men, and Laura Loomer, a self-appointed Trump enforcer, who goes after people who she sees as disloyal to Trump, trying and sometimes succeeding in getting them fired or leaving office. Charlie Kirk founded Turning Point USA when he was 18 and grew it into what Draper describes as the preeminent conservative youth organization. Kirk was so close with Trump that after Kirk's death, Trump wrote on X, I love you, brother. We're going to talk about how Kirk became such a powerful figure on the right and what he stood for. Robert Draper, welcome back to FRESH AIR. I've learned a lot from your writing. I want to start with, before we get to more about Charlie Kirk himself, what do you think have been some of the most significant reactions to the assassination coming from President Trump and within his administration?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5544168", "date": "2025-09-17", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "How Charlie Kirk became a leader of the conservative youth movement", "question_index": 1, "text": "President Trump said that the radical left is directly responsible for the terrorism we're seeing in our country today. My administration will find each and every one of those who contributed to this atrocity and to other political violence, including the organizations that fund it and support it. It's hard to tell who he means and what he means, but what organizations - who does he see as the radical left? What defines the radical left for him? There are a lot of other similar statements coming out of his administration. How are you interpreting those statements?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure, Terry. Thanks for having me on. I think among the most significant reactions from President Trump has been his order that flags be flown at half-mast. That, after all, is a distinction that is r"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5544168", "date": "2025-09-17", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "How Charlie Kirk became a leader of the conservative youth movement", "question_index": 2, "text": "The way you describe it, it sounds like Charlie Kirk was on the verge of going to college when he was around 18. He spoke at an event, and a wealthy potential donor heard him and said, look, don't go to college. You'd be better off just being, you know, like, an organizer. Be a political voice. You're great at that. And that's how Charlie Kirk ended up becoming, you know, a youth organizer in the conservative movement. How did he get from there to actually meeting Vance, meeting Don Jr., meeting Trump? Like, you can you connect those dots for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm interpreting them, at least at the moment, as being conspiratorial in nature. It's through Kirk's close associates, including Kirk's widow, Erika. But from the president of the United States"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5544168", "date": "2025-09-17", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "How Charlie Kirk became a leader of the conservative youth movement", "question_index": 3, "text": "So when Charlie Kirk decided that Republicans had to be cool because Obama was cool, and Republicans just weren't, what was Kirk's recipe for making it cool to be a Republican?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. It's worthwhile recalling that during this whole period that you've described from 2010 to 2016, the president of the United States is Barack Obama, and to young voters, to people on college cam"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5544168", "date": "2025-09-17", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "How Charlie Kirk became a leader of the conservative youth movement", "question_index": 4, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you 'cause we need to take a short break here. My guest is Robert Draper. He profiled Charlie Kirk earlier this year in The New York Times magazine. He covers the political dynamics of the right wing. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The chief ingredient to that recipe was first promoting the viewpoint that Democrats and Obama were not as cool as they seemed, that, in fact, the Democratic Party was becoming increasingly uncool bec"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5544168", "date": "2025-09-17", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "How Charlie Kirk became a leader of the conservative youth movement", "question_index": 5, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Robert Draper, who profiled Charlie Kirk earlier this year in The New York Times magazine. Draper covers the political dynamics of the right wing. You traveled with Charlie Kirk when you were profiling him, and you went to several college campuses with him, heard him debate with college students, heard him speak. He's been praised frequently as a terrific debater. I've seen videos of some of those, you know, Q&A debates, and it seemed kind of like an unequal playing field in the sense that, like, Charlie Kirk's in the power position on stage. And then the students are lining up at a microphone. And in the clips that I heard, 'cause there's a whole reel of clips, and I don't know who cherry picked them and what that person or group's motivation was, but at least in that clip reel, the students at the microphone seem very unprepared to defend their point of view, to make a case for themselves. They seemed kind of stuck on what to say when Kirk challenged them, whereas Kirk is a very, very experienced public speaker who had access to the halls of power. And so it seems like he'd likely win, you know, so to speak, in a playing field like that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The chief ingredient to that recipe was first promoting the viewpoint that Democrats and Obama were not as cool as they seemed, that, in fact, the Democratic Party was becoming increasingly uncool bec"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5544168", "date": "2025-09-17", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "How Charlie Kirk became a leader of the conservative youth movement", "question_index": 6, "text": "Charlie Kirk advocated for free speech and was known for not preaching violence, but instead engaging in dialogue. But his group Project USA started Professor Watchlist. Would you describe what that list is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Well, but in a way, Terry, that's the message, as you described it, that the message that Charlie Kirk was essentially promoting was that so many people on the left, so many young people in par"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5544168", "date": "2025-09-17", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "How Charlie Kirk became a leader of the conservative youth movement", "question_index": 7, "text": "Is it is or was? Does that still exist?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. It was basically a watchlist of..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5544168", "date": "2025-09-17", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "How Charlie Kirk became a leader of the conservative youth movement", "question_index": 8, "text": "Yeah. And I think the watchlist was supposed to out professors who advance a radical agenda.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not formally, no, no. I mean, it's - I don't think such a list is even necessary anymore now that so many conservative kids on campus recognize that they've got the power to chill academics from issui"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5544168", "date": "2025-09-17", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "How Charlie Kirk became a leader of the conservative youth movement", "question_index": 9, "text": "But what is a radical agenda? If you assign a Toni Morrison book, is that a radical agenda?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5544168", "date": "2025-09-17", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "How Charlie Kirk became a leader of the conservative youth movement", "question_index": 10, "text": "Let's talk about some of the views that most defined Charlie Kirk. He was anti-immigration. He had certain beliefs of what it took to be an American. And he had an episode all about, you know, what does it mean to be American? And I want to play a short excerpt of that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, the question answers itself to you and me, no. I mean, Toni Morrison is a, you know, writer of literary masterpieces, but, you know, there are also people on the left who were saying tha"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5544168", "date": "2025-09-17", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "How Charlie Kirk became a leader of the conservative youth movement", "question_index": 11, "text": "OK. That was Charlie Kirk on his podcast. Can you expand on what you know about Charlie Kirk's views on immigration?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The defining issue of the year of our lord, 2025, going into 2026, 2027, on American right, is one that we are totally unprepared for, which is what is an American? And most people look at me and they"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5544168", "date": "2025-09-17", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "How Charlie Kirk became a leader of the conservative youth movement", "question_index": 12, "text": "Did he subscribe to the great replacement theory that people of color, Muslims, Jews are trying to replace white people or will end up replacing white people, and that will totally change America as we know it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I can. It - I do need to point out at first that it's surprising to hear Charlie say that no one can serve two masters when he knew full well that Jesus Christ had said, render unto Caesar what i"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5544168", "date": "2025-09-17", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "How Charlie Kirk became a leader of the conservative youth movement", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you. We need to take another break. My guest is Robert Draper, and he profiled Charlie Kirk earlier this year in The New York Times Magazine. He covers the political dynamics of the right wing. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a great question. And the short answer is, for the most part, yes, though Charlie would become a bit slippery when pressed on it. So on the great replacement theory, is this an intentional act on"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5544168", "date": "2025-09-17", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "How Charlie Kirk became a leader of the conservative youth movement", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Robert Draper. He profiled Charlie Kirk earlier this year in The New York Times Magazine. Draper covers the political dynamics of the right wing. He's also recently profiled the right-wing extremist Nick Fuentes, who was a rival of Kirk's with a large following of young white men, and Laura Loomer, a self-appointed Trump enforcer who goes after people who she sees as disloyal to Trump, trying and sometimes succeeding in getting them fired or getting them to leave office. Kirk was assassinated by a young man who apparently was living with a romantic partner who is transitioning from male to female. As we record this Tuesday morning, we don't know what the shooter's motivations were. But I'm wondering - what did Kirk have to say about people who were trans?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a great question. And the short answer is, for the most part, yes, though Charlie would become a bit slippery when pressed on it. So on the great replacement theory, is this an intentional act on"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5544168", "date": "2025-09-17", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "How Charlie Kirk became a leader of the conservative youth movement", "question_index": 15, "text": "After you profiled Kirk, and I think that was published back in February, you stayed in touch with him. And I think you were texting each other the day before he was killed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, on the matter of transgender and gender fluidity, as well, Kirk was pretty strident. You know, he would often preface his remarks, at least when he was in a setting talking to transgender people"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5544168", "date": "2025-09-17", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "How Charlie Kirk became a leader of the conservative youth movement", "question_index": 16, "text": "How would you respond to that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's correct. I'll tell you also, Terry, that the story, as you say, was published in February of this year. But I would say for a full year prior to that, Kirk and I had been getting to know each o"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5544168", "date": "2025-09-17", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "How Charlie Kirk became a leader of the conservative youth movement", "question_index": 17, "text": "The assassination of Charlie Kirk comes at a time when there was already a split in the MAGA movement, in part over whether all the Jeffrey Epstein files should be released. Trump and MAGA used to call for the full release, saying that there was a cover-up. But once there was speculation that Trump was mentioned in the file, he was opposed to the release. But many of his followers still want those papers released and are angry with or disappointed by Trump. And another high-profile example of this split in MAGA is maybe exemplified by Nick Fuentes, who is also a very influential figure in the conservative or the right-wing movement, especially among white men. But before we get into the conflict that Kirk and Fuentes had with each other, I want to play an excerpt of Fuentes' tribute to Charlie Kirk.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, sometimes I would say, you know, I think what you're hearing you're hearing from the right-wing media ecosystem, and it's not supported by reality as I understand it. And he would take that and "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5544168", "date": "2025-09-17", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "How Charlie Kirk became a leader of the conservative youth movement", "question_index": 18, "text": "OK. That was Nick Fuentes' tribute to Charlie Kirk in the streaming show that Fuentes hosts. Robert Draper, would you compare the political differences between Fuentes and Kirk?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Charlie Kirk never had a kind word to say about me in his life. Now that he has died, I'll say some kind words about him. Although I didn't agree with him, I considered him a part of the political est"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5544168", "date": "2025-09-17", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "How Charlie Kirk became a leader of the conservative youth movement", "question_index": 19, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you. My guest is Robert Draper, and he profiled Charlie Kirk earlier this year in The New York Times Magazine. You can still find that online. It was reposted after - on The New York Times' site after Kirk was assassinated. Draper covers the political dynamics of the right wing. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And let me first say that everything that Fuentes said about his own sentiments regarding Kirk happened to be true, but they had very, very great differences. Fuentes is a hardcore white national"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5544168", "date": "2025-09-17", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "How Charlie Kirk became a leader of the conservative youth movement", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Robert Draper. He profiled Charlie Kirk earlier this year in The New York Times Magazine. Draper covers the political dynamics of the right wing. He's also profiled the right-wing extremist Nick Fuentes, who was a rival of Kirk's, with a large following of young white men, and Laura Loomer, a self appointed Trump enforcer, who goes after people who she sees as disloyal to Trump. Fuentes made it clear several times in the streaming show that there was a shooter - there was a guy with a gun in Fuentes' home last year, and I don't know how he was rescued from that, but he was. But he knows he came really close himself to being assassinated. And I think that really - my impression is that shook him to his core, and that's part of the reason why Charlie Kirk's association just really shook him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And let me first say that everything that Fuentes said about his own sentiments regarding Kirk happened to be true, but they had very, very great differences. Fuentes is a hardcore white national"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5544168", "date": "2025-09-17", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "How Charlie Kirk became a leader of the conservative youth movement", "question_index": 21, "text": "Also, in the streaming show that Fuentes hosts, the one that was a tribute to Charlie Kirk, he passionately urged people who were listening, people who were his followers, to, like, if they have guns, put them down. Political violence is never a good thing. Killing someone is never a good thing. And he said, I'm not saying that if you voted for Kamala Harris, that you're responsible for the death of Charlie Kirk. And he went through a whole list of people, you know, like Democrats or people on the left, and said, like, these individuals, they're not responsible for this, but we have to defeat evil. And, you know, he used a lot of Christian references. But at the same time, he was also saying, we need to defeat them. And it was not clear to me who the we is or who the them was.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I also think that they - you know, they traveled in the same circles. And look, we're when we talk about three of, you know, three influencers, Charlie Kirk, Laura Loomer and Nick Fuentes, two of them"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5544168", "date": "2025-09-17", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "How Charlie Kirk became a leader of the conservative youth movement", "question_index": 22, "text": "Is there any evidence that that is true?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, you know, in that sense, Fuentes and Kirk were similar, maybe only in that sense, in that both of them would often talk about evil and talk about they. And typically, what they meant by "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5544168", "date": "2025-09-17", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "How Charlie Kirk became a leader of the conservative youth movement", "question_index": 23, "text": "Is Fuentes a white nationalist? And does he subscribe to the replacement theory that people of color, immigrants, Jews are trying - consciously or unconsciously going to replace white people, and that will be, like, the downfall of America?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Only in the vaguest sense, Terry. I mean, there's - you know, Tyler Robinson was something of a loner. He was definitely a gamer. You can find a Venn diagram overlap in which you see Groypers using th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5544168", "date": "2025-09-17", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "How Charlie Kirk became a leader of the conservative youth movement", "question_index": 24, "text": "Is he a Holocaust denier?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes to all of that. Fuentes has not, to my knowledge, ever described in sort of clinical detail how the great replacement theory has been carried out, who - you know, mechanically how it works. But, y"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5544168", "date": "2025-09-17", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "How Charlie Kirk became a leader of the conservative youth movement", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well, let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Robert Draper. He profiled Charlie Kirk earlier this year in The New York Times Magazine. He covers the political dynamics of the right wing. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I confronted him about that. And he crawfished a bit on it, Terry, and said, well, you know, I actually have never done a deep dive on the Holocaust. I know people who are out-and-out deniers, saying "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5544168", "date": "2025-09-17", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "How Charlie Kirk became a leader of the conservative youth movement", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Robert Draper. He profiled Charlie Kirk earlier this year in The New York Times Magazine. Draper covers the political dynamics of the right wing. He's also profiled the right-wing extremist Nick Fuentes, who was a rival of Kirk's with a large following of young white men, and Laura Loomer, a self-appointed Trump enforcer who goes after people who she sees as disloyal to Trump. I want to play one more Nick Fuentes clip, and this is him talking about Trump and his disillusionment with President Trump.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I confronted him about that. And he crawfished a bit on it, Terry, and said, well, you know, I actually have never done a deep dive on the Holocaust. I know people who are out-and-out deniers, saying "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5544168", "date": "2025-09-17", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "How Charlie Kirk became a leader of the conservative youth movement", "question_index": 27, "text": "Although he's saying in that clip that what liberals said turned out to be true, he's probably opposing Trump for completely different reasons. What are his reasons?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Liberals were right fundamentally about Trump. Whether he has good intentions or bad intentions, whether he means well or not, some people blame his advisers. Some people blame people around him. What"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5544168", "date": "2025-09-17", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "How Charlie Kirk became a leader of the conservative youth movement", "question_index": 28, "text": "So you think the clip that we just heard is an example of a split within the MAGA movement?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, his reasons are that - as he expressed them to me, at least - that he views Trump as corrupt and compromised. And he believes that Trump is essentially a sellout - that Trump, by saying,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5544168", "date": "2025-09-17", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "How Charlie Kirk became a leader of the conservative youth movement", "question_index": 29, "text": "Charlie Kirk could be very charismatic when he spoke. And, you know, he was a gifted speaker, as everyone has pointed out. So is Nick Fuentes. He's a - you know, I haven't heard that much of him, but what I've heard, he's a very powerful speaker. How much do you think charisma has affected their ability to gain large followings?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For sure. I mean, he's basically saying Trump, who founded the MAGA movement, should no longer be the leader of the MAGA movement and, in fact, has betrayed the MAGA movement. That's something that, y"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5544168", "date": "2025-09-17", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "How Charlie Kirk became a leader of the conservative youth movement", "question_index": 30, "text": "Robert Draper, thank you so much for talking with us and for taking some time from your reporting to be on our show. I really appreciate it, and thank you for the reporting that you've done.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's been crucial. As you've said, Fuentes is an extremely fluent and agile speaker who can speak in whole paragraphs, like Kirk did, without notes and with even, you know, only a modicum of preparati"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5544168", "date": "2025-09-17", "guest": "Robert Draper", "title": "How Charlie Kirk became a leader of the conservative youth movement", "question_index": 31, "text": "Robert Draper covers the political dynamics of the right for The New York Times. You can find his profiles of Charlie Kirk and Nick Fuentes on the Times website. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be Jude Law, the star of such films as \"The Talented Mr. Ripley \"and \"Cold Mountain,\" and the HBO series \"The Young Pope.\" He'll talk about his latest role in the Netflix thriller \"Black Rabbit.\" He plays a restaurant owner caught in a web of crime, betrayal and family ties. I hope you'll join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at @nprfreshair. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Briger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Susan Nyakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My pleasure, Terry."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5552132", "date": "2025-09-24", "guest": "Jimmy Kimmel", "title": "Examining Kimmel's brief suspension and Trump's threats to free speech", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Jimmy Kimmel and his show \"Jimmy Kimmel Live!\" returned to ABC last night after he was suspended indefinitely a week ago. The story of his suspension and return has implications beyond Kimmel, pertaining to conglomerate ownership of broadcast networks and news publications, the First Amendment and freedom of the press, the FCC and President Trump. Here to talk about the larger story are Marty Baron and Adam Liptak. Baron was the editor of The Washington Post from 2013 until his retirement in 2021. During most of his tenure, The Post was owned by Amazon founder Jeff Bezos. Baron's memoir about that time is titled \"Collision Of Power: Trump, Bezos, And The Washington Post.\" He was previously the editor of The Boston Globe. In the movie \"Spotlight,\" a drama based on The Globe's investigation, revealing sexual abuse within the Catholic Church, Baron was portrayed by Liev Schreiber. Adam Liptak covers the courts and legal issues for The New York Times. Before joining the Times' news staff, he practiced law for 14 years, concentrating on First Amendment issues, including in The New York Times Company's corporate legal department. Let's start with a clip from Jimmy Kimmel's monologue last night.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5552132", "date": "2025-09-24", "guest": "Jimmy Kimmel", "title": "Examining Kimmel's brief suspension and Trump's threats to free speech", "question_index": 1, "text": "All right, so that was an excerpt of last night's monologue by Jimmy Kimmel. Kimmel went on to praise Charlie Kirk's widow, Erika Kirk, for forgiving her husband's assassin. And he added while tearing up...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've had the opportunity to meet and spend time with comedians and talk show hosts from countries like Russia, countries in the Middle East, who tell me they would get thrown in prison for making fun "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5552132", "date": "2025-09-24", "guest": "Jimmy Kimmel", "title": "Examining Kimmel's brief suspension and Trump's threats to free speech", "question_index": 2, "text": "So, Marty Baron, Adam Liptak, welcome to FRESH AIR. What was your reaction to last night's monologue?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...It touches many. And if there's anything we should take from this tragedy to carry forward, I hope it can be that, and not this."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5552132", "date": "2025-09-24", "guest": "Jimmy Kimmel", "title": "Examining Kimmel's brief suspension and Trump's threats to free speech", "question_index": 3, "text": "Adam Liptak, what are your thoughts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was very moving, very emotional and, I think, very effective. I really think that this could end up being an extraordinarily important moment in the history of the country. And you know, I th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5552132", "date": "2025-09-24", "guest": "Jimmy Kimmel", "title": "Examining Kimmel's brief suspension and Trump's threats to free speech", "question_index": 4, "text": "Yeah. I think that between Sinclair and Nexstar, they own about 20% of the ABC affiliates.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I agree with Marty. It was, among other things, a robust defense of free speech in the sense that you don't have to agree with what Jimmy Kimmel was saying, although it's hard to disagree with much of"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5552132", "date": "2025-09-24", "guest": "Jimmy Kimmel", "title": "Examining Kimmel's brief suspension and Trump's threats to free speech", "question_index": 5, "text": "They own 70 stations, and I think it's like 20% of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think they..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5552132", "date": "2025-09-24", "guest": "Jimmy Kimmel", "title": "Examining Kimmel's brief suspension and Trump's threats to free speech", "question_index": 6, "text": "Of households, yeah. That's a lot. And some of it is in college towns in upstate New York and in California. And, of course, Washington, I mean, the argument that they've been making is their listeners don't want to hear this. It's not in the public interest. Well, in Washington, D.C., Adam Liptak wants to see it. You know, a lot of people in Washington, D.C. would want to see it. So they're depriving people of what they want to see as opposed to helping them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Households."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5552132", "date": "2025-09-24", "guest": "Jimmy Kimmel", "title": "Examining Kimmel's brief suspension and Trump's threats to free speech", "question_index": 7, "text": "I want to quote something that Brian Stelter, who is CNN's chief media correspondent, wrote in his newsletter about Nexstar and Sinclair, the two broadcast owners that are not broadcasting Kimmel. Stelter wrote, (reading) those station owners, Nexstar and Sinclair, have positioned themselves as Trump administration allies, leading public interest groups to raise concerns about the objectivity of the news coverage coming from those stations. A top Sinclair executive famously told Trump back in 2016, we are here to deliver your message. Is there anything you can say about the political positions or editorial policies of those two station owners and how that may figure into their decisions to, for now, cancel broadcasts of Kimmel?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And they're operating, it looks like, against their economic self-interests. Certainly, this show will get astounding ratings. But President Trump, Terry, is not backing down. He's doubling down. Just"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5552132", "date": "2025-09-24", "guest": "Jimmy Kimmel", "title": "Examining Kimmel's brief suspension and Trump's threats to free speech", "question_index": 8, "text": "So this story is also a business story. Disney and Nexstar have business interests that have to be approved by the Trump administration. Disney, which also owns ESPN or merged with ESPN, they're trying to expand their football coverage, and they're planning to launch a new ESPN streaming platform that wouldn't require having cable. They have a deal to acquire the NFL's RedZone brand, but that needs to be approved from - by the Justice Department and the Federal Trade Commission. So in terms of their business deals, they need to get approval and, you know, might be concerned about alienating the Trump administration. And then Nexstar is trying to buy Tegna, which is a rival company that owns TV stations. It's a $6.2 billion deal, and that requires FCC approval. So do you want to talk about the age of conglomerate-owned media and the sometimes conflicting needs within the conglomerate itself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One distinction that's worth making is that the First Amendment applies to the government, and the government can't censor people. Private companies can make good decisions or bad decisions about what"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5552132", "date": "2025-09-24", "guest": "Jimmy Kimmel", "title": "Examining Kimmel's brief suspension and Trump's threats to free speech", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well, let's take a break here. If you're just joining us, my guests are Marty Baron, former editor of The Washington Post, and Adam Liptak, who covers the courts and legal issues for The New York Times. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Look, I mean, I think it is an issue. I think ownership is an issue. It's definitely a point of vulnerability for media companies and for the ability of journalists to do their jobs. Many of these com"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5552132", "date": "2025-09-24", "guest": "Jimmy Kimmel", "title": "Examining Kimmel's brief suspension and Trump's threats to free speech", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Marty Baron, former editor of The Washington Post who's now on the Steering Committee of the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press, and Adam Liptak, who covers the courts and legal issues for The New York Times. We're talking about Jimmy Kimmel's monologue last night and about larger issues pertaining to freedom of the press and freedom of speech. So yesterday, when President Trump spoke before the U.N., he talked about free speech, and he referred to the upcoming 250th anniversary of the founding of the U.S. And he said, in honor of this momentous anniversary, I hope that all countries who find inspiration in our example will join us in renewing our commitment, values and those values really that we hold so dear. Let us defend free speech and free expression. It's ironic that", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Look, I mean, I think it is an issue. I think ownership is an issue. It's definitely a point of vulnerability for media companies and for the ability of journalists to do their jobs. Many of these com"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5552132", "date": "2025-09-24", "guest": "Jimmy Kimmel", "title": "Examining Kimmel's brief suspension and Trump's threats to free speech", "question_index": 11, "text": "that coincides with what we're talking about - you know, TV stations that refuse right now to broadcast Jimmy Kimmel.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Look, I mean, I think it is an issue. I think ownership is an issue. It's definitely a point of vulnerability for media companies and for the ability of journalists to do their jobs. Many of these com"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5552132", "date": "2025-09-24", "guest": "Jimmy Kimmel", "title": "Examining Kimmel's brief suspension and Trump's threats to free speech", "question_index": 12, "text": "Adam, you had paraphrased what Trump wrote on Truth Social, his social media platform, so let me read it. He wrote, I can't believe ABC Fake News gave Jimmy Kimmel his job back. The White House was told by ABC that his show was canceled. Something happened between then and now because his audience is gone - in capital letters - and his talent - in quotes - was never there. Why would they want somebody back who does so poorly, who's not funny and who puts the network in jeopardy by playing 90% positive Democrat garbage? He's yet another arm of the DNC, and to the best of my knowledge, that would be a major illegal campaign contribution. I think we're going to test ABC out on this. Let's see how we do. Last time I went after them, they gave me $16 million. This one sounds even more lucrative. A true bunch of losers. Let Jimmy Kimmel rot in his bad ratings. Adam, do you want to break down what you make of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, you know, Terry, the passage you read, it doesn't sound like Donald Trump. That is something a speechwriter wrote on a teleprompter that he managed to read, but it's at odds with what he says in "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5552132", "date": "2025-09-24", "guest": "Jimmy Kimmel", "title": "Examining Kimmel's brief suspension and Trump's threats to free speech", "question_index": 13, "text": "But it says that this story isn't over.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, every part of it is disturbing and unseemly. The notion that he can sue Kimmel - for what? For a joke? And this idea that political commentary is a campaign contribution is, you know, entirely"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5552132", "date": "2025-09-24", "guest": "Jimmy Kimmel", "title": "Examining Kimmel's brief suspension and Trump's threats to free speech", "question_index": 14, "text": "That, you know, victory has not been won by Jimmy Kimmel just 'cause he's back on the air. That's a very partial victory for him if Trump intends to go after him or ABC and sue for even more money than $16 million.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5552132", "date": "2025-09-24", "guest": "Jimmy Kimmel", "title": "Examining Kimmel's brief suspension and Trump's threats to free speech", "question_index": 15, "text": "So I want to mention in this context that Brendan Carr wrote the chapter in The Heritage Foundation's 2025 project, which has become a blueprint for the Trump administration - he wrote the chapter on the FCC. Do you have any comment about the fact that he was chosen to write this conservative blueprint?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I mean, Trump is at war with not only the press but even with comedians who make jokes at his expense. I mean, it's beyond unseemly, and it's wholly at odds with the American conception of free s"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5552132", "date": "2025-09-24", "guest": "Jimmy Kimmel", "title": "Examining Kimmel's brief suspension and Trump's threats to free speech", "question_index": 16, "text": "Following the playbook...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think he's just following the playbook that he himself wrote. We can see that playing out now. And he..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5552132", "date": "2025-09-24", "guest": "Jimmy Kimmel", "title": "Examining Kimmel's brief suspension and Trump's threats to free speech", "question_index": 17, "text": "...That he put in Project 2025?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5552132", "date": "2025-09-24", "guest": "Jimmy Kimmel", "title": "Examining Kimmel's brief suspension and Trump's threats to free speech", "question_index": 18, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guests are Marty Baron, former editor of The Washington Post, who's now on the Steering Committee of the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press, and Adam Liptak, who covers the courts and legal issues for The New York Times. He previously worked as a lawyer representing The Times. We'll talk more about freedom of the press and other First Amendment issues during President Trump's second term after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, absolutely. He wrote it, and now he's putting it into practice. And these are, without question, authoritarian measures - I mean, that he's going to decide what's fair. He's going to decide what"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5552132", "date": "2025-09-24", "guest": "Jimmy Kimmel", "title": "Examining Kimmel's brief suspension and Trump's threats to free speech", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Marty Baron and Adam Liptak. Baron is the former editor of The Washington Post and is now on the Steering Committee of the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press. Adam Liptak covers the courts for The New York Times. He's also a lawyer who previously represented the Times. We're talking about the First Amendment and freedom of the press and what they mean now in President Trump's second term. So now that we know what Jimmy Kimmel had to say on his show, let's talk about the FCC's role in this story. And I want to start with two clips from FCC commissioner. Now, he's the chair of the Federal Communications Commission. And first, I want to play what he had to say after the Kimmel broadcast that created all this controversy. So here's Brendan Carr.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, absolutely. He wrote it, and now he's putting it into practice. And these are, without question, authoritarian measures - I mean, that he's going to decide what's fair. He's going to decide what"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5552132", "date": "2025-09-24", "guest": "Jimmy Kimmel", "title": "Examining Kimmel's brief suspension and Trump's threats to free speech", "question_index": 20, "text": "So that was the chair of the FCC, Brendan Carr. He was speaking to Benny Johnson. Benny Johnson is a right-wing podcaster. So let's hear what he had to say Monday. And this was at the Concordia Annual Summit in New York City.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've been very clear from the moment that I have become chairman of the FCC, I want to reinvigorate the public interest. And what people don't understand is that the broadcasters - and you've gotten t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5552132", "date": "2025-09-24", "guest": "Jimmy Kimmel", "title": "Examining Kimmel's brief suspension and Trump's threats to free speech", "question_index": 21, "text": "OK. So in the first clip, he was talking about changing Jimmy Kimmel's conduct. He was talking about Kimmel's conduct on the show. And in the second clip, he's saying, I was just referring to, like, the process that the FCC goes through. You could work it out among, you know, Kimmel and Disney, or you could do it the hard way and work it out through the FCC. And he was talking about news distortion. So how do you interpret these two separate clips? And do you see him as just clarifying what he had to say? 'Cause he said that Democrats had distorted what he was saying the first time around. So do you see this as a clarification or as a walking back?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What happens at the FCC is when you have a broadcast license, there's conditions. There's a public interest standard, which means you have to operate consistent with the public interest. And one of th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5552132", "date": "2025-09-24", "guest": "Jimmy Kimmel", "title": "Examining Kimmel's brief suspension and Trump's threats to free speech", "question_index": 22, "text": "So the Pentagon has announced a new policy that if you are a Pentagon reporter, you have to take a pledge. Marty, do you want to describe what the pledge is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There is a line of Supreme Court precedent here that's quite relevant that says the government and the president has a bully pulpit and is permitted to try to persuade people that its policies are the"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5552132", "date": "2025-09-24", "guest": "Jimmy Kimmel", "title": "Examining Kimmel's brief suspension and Trump's threats to free speech", "question_index": 23, "text": "Why would you say definitively they should not sign the pledge?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, essentially, the pledge is that anybody who's covering the Pentagon has to pledge that are - they will not collect or distribute - disseminate any information that wasn't officially released by "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5552132", "date": "2025-09-24", "guest": "Jimmy Kimmel", "title": "Examining Kimmel's brief suspension and Trump's threats to free speech", "question_index": 24, "text": "Adam, what would you say about First Amendment issues in terms of this pledge and, you know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, basically, what the Department of Defense is now asking of journalists is that they convert themselves into extensions of the Public Relations Department, that they not perform as journa"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5552132", "date": "2025-09-24", "guest": "Jimmy Kimmel", "title": "Examining Kimmel's brief suspension and Trump's threats to free speech", "question_index": 25, "text": "...Freedom of the press?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5552132", "date": "2025-09-24", "guest": "Jimmy Kimmel", "title": "Examining Kimmel's brief suspension and Trump's threats to free speech", "question_index": 26, "text": "So, you know, President Trump has filed multiple lawsuits against newspapers, TV networks - CBS, ABC. And he has settled out of court with CBS and ABC. Although he says he won, meaning that he won in court, he just - it was settled out of court. But they each paid, like, $16 million. How do you interpret that, standing outside of this? Do you see them as having caved to Trump or just avoided worst nightmares? Like, do you have an interpretation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it's preposterous. It's laughable. It's a plain violation of the First Amendment. And as Marty says, it's a nonstarter. I mean, no serious journalist would consider signing a thing. And if you"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5552132", "date": "2025-09-24", "guest": "Jimmy Kimmel", "title": "Examining Kimmel's brief suspension and Trump's threats to free speech", "question_index": 27, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you both. If you're just joining us, my guests are Adam Liptak, who covers the courts for The New York Times. He's also a lawyer who previously represented the Times. Also with us is Marty Baron, the former editor of The Washington Post, who's now on the Steering Committee of the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "These lawsuits were - one of them, the ABC lawsuit - very weak. The other, the CBS lawsuit - laughable, preposterous. And not long ago, no serious news organization would have contemplated settling ei"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5552132", "date": "2025-09-24", "guest": "Jimmy Kimmel", "title": "Examining Kimmel's brief suspension and Trump's threats to free speech", "question_index": 28, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let me reintroduce my guests if you're just joining us. Marty Baron is the former editor of The Washington Post. He's currently on the Steering Committee of the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press. Adam Liptak covers the courts for The New York Times. He's also a lawyer who previously represented The Times. We're talking about what the First Amendment and freedom of the press mean now in President Trump's second term. So Trump has sued The New York Times three times. The first two were thrown out. The third decision was reached last week. It's not a final decision. Adam, you used to be The New York Times' lawyer. You've done a lot of First Amendment cases. Tell us about what the suit is and what the judge's comments were.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "These lawsuits were - one of them, the ABC lawsuit - very weak. The other, the CBS lawsuit - laughable, preposterous. And not long ago, no serious news organization would have contemplated settling ei"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5552132", "date": "2025-09-24", "guest": "Jimmy Kimmel", "title": "Examining Kimmel's brief suspension and Trump's threats to free speech", "question_index": 29, "text": "It's officially a defamation suit.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it dignifies it to call it a suit. It's a screed. It's a rant with a legal caption on it. And..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5552132", "date": "2025-09-24", "guest": "Jimmy Kimmel", "title": "Examining Kimmel's brief suspension and Trump's threats to free speech", "question_index": 30, "text": "Can I just read a couple of excerpts of the judge's writing? Because it really reads like a book critic's review of a terrible book. The judge says that the complaint was unnecessarily lengthy and digressive. He criticized Trump's lawyers for waiting until Page 80 to lodge a formal allegation of defamation and for including ahead of it dozens of, quote, \"florid and enervating pages lavishing praise on the president and enumerating a range of grievances.\" I actually looked up enervating. I know the word. I read it in context, but I never knew exactly what it meant. So it means to reduce your strength or mental vigor. So that's what he's accusing the writing here of doing. And the judge goes on to say, a complaint is not a public forum for vituperation and invective. It's not a protected platform to rage against an adversary. So the judge threw it out, calling it improper and impermissible in its present form. So it gave Trump's lawyers 28 days to resubmit. Adam, any speculation about what will happen?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thought this lawsuit was this - I mean, which was for $15 billion, by the way, and it's hard to see any damages that Trump has suffered. He - as he himself says in that lawsuit, he won the election "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5552132", "date": "2025-09-24", "guest": "Jimmy Kimmel", "title": "Examining Kimmel's brief suspension and Trump's threats to free speech", "question_index": 31, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you both. If you're just joining us, my guests are Adam Liptak, who covers the courts for The New York Times. He's also a lawyer who previously represented the Times. Also with us is Marty Baron, the former editor of The Washington Post who's now on the Steering Committee of the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There will be an attempt to satisfy the judge and satisfy the client, and that's going to be hard to navigate because, you know, this is not serious business. This is an attempt by the president to do"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5552132", "date": "2025-09-24", "guest": "Jimmy Kimmel", "title": "Examining Kimmel's brief suspension and Trump's threats to free speech", "question_index": 32, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let me reintroduce my guests if you're just joining us. Marty Baron is the former editor of The Washington Post. He's currently on the Steering Committee of the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press. Adam Liptak covers the courts for The New York Times. He's also a lawyer who previously represented the Times. We're talking about what the First Amendment and freedom of the press mean now in President Trump's second term. Marty Baron, I want to ask you about Jeff Bezos and The Washington Post. You were the editor of the post when Bezos bought the Post, and things went well between you. And The Washington Post, I think it's fair to say, really flourished during Trump's first term, did great investigative reporting, had the slogan democracy dies in the darkness. Compare that to Trump's second term and what Bezos - who he's hired, you know, in high-up positions at the Post and how the editorial policy has changed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There will be an attempt to satisfy the judge and satisfy the client, and that's going to be hard to navigate because, you know, this is not serious business. This is an attempt by the president to do"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5552132", "date": "2025-09-24", "guest": "Jimmy Kimmel", "title": "Examining Kimmel's brief suspension and Trump's threats to free speech", "question_index": 33, "text": "So Bezos, of course, owns Amazon. And Amazon is making or has made a documentary about Melania Trump and paying her - my understanding is $28 million for it. And some news organizations have been making the connection between this documentary and Bezos trying to please the Trump administration. How do you interpret it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Well, I do think that Bezos did a great job as owner during the time that I was there and for - overall actually, after the time that I was there, so for about 10 years. I think things started t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5552132", "date": "2025-09-24", "guest": "Jimmy Kimmel", "title": "Examining Kimmel's brief suspension and Trump's threats to free speech", "question_index": 34, "text": "Is there anything you want to add to that, Adam Liptak?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I interpret it that way. I think it is an effort to do something for Trump personally. Everybody seems to feel the need to do that - people who want to ingratiate themselves with him. Actually, they w"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5552132", "date": "2025-09-24", "guest": "Jimmy Kimmel", "title": "Examining Kimmel's brief suspension and Trump's threats to free speech", "question_index": 35, "text": "So, Marty, the last time you were on the show, you gave us a list of things that you feared would happen during the Trump administration, and some of those things have come true. I'd like you to each say, if you can, what you're concerned might happen next.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...That birthday letter in the Epstein birthday book, which the president said did not exist, and now it sure seems to exist."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5552132", "date": "2025-09-24", "guest": "Jimmy Kimmel", "title": "Examining Kimmel's brief suspension and Trump's threats to free speech", "question_index": 36, "text": "Marty Baron, Adam Liptak, thank you both so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I agree with Marty. American press law is quite protective of the press for what it publishes, exceptionally protective. But there's a weak spot, and it's the one Marty identifies. The Supreme Court h"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5552132", "date": "2025-09-24", "guest": "Jimmy Kimmel", "title": "Examining Kimmel's brief suspension and Trump's threats to free speech", "question_index": 37, "text": "Adam Liptak covers the courts and legal issues for The New York Times. Marty Baron is the former editor of The Washington Post. This part of our interview was recorded yesterday morning. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be Scarlett Johansson, who's making her directorial debut with the new film \"Eleanor The Great,\" and June Squibb, who stars as a 94-year-old woman who claims her dead friend's Holocaust survival story as her own, a lie that spirals out of control. Squibb was nominated for an Oscar for her role in \"Nebraska.\" I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5552132", "date": "2025-09-24", "guest": "Jimmy Kimmel", "title": "Examining Kimmel's brief suspension and Trump's threats to free speech", "question_index": 38, "text": "To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram - @nprfreshair. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Briger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson. Therese Madden directed today's show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 0, "text": "Do you think that that's changed? Do you think that your more personal style has become accepted scientifically?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For one thing, I gave them names instead of numbers - terrible thing to do. For another thing, the first scientific paper I wrote, I talked about chimpanzees as he and she, and I said this individual "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 1, "text": "In writing about chimp behavior, you say that male chimps are more respectful of men, especially men with deep voices, and they take liberties with women. How did you find that out, and what kind of liberties did the chimps take with you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that in most scientific circles today, these things that I've mentioned are accepted. I think people have come to realize that when we're talking about creatures who share over 98% of their ge"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 2, "text": "Well, what does he do that's a threat to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Really, until quite recently, there hasn't been that obvious a difference in the way they treat, or they treated, male and female researchers. But we now have one chimpanzee who's a rogue. And he's ac"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 3, "text": "I'm sure you've asked yourself why you've become a target of his. Do you have any idea why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's probably 10 times stronger than I am. I mean, a big male chimp is said to be four to five times stronger than an adult human male. And Frodo is the largest, heaviest chimp we've ever known at Gom"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 4, "text": "I'm sure you've asked yourself what the chimps think of you and what they think of what you're doing there and who you are.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can only think that it's because of all the people working at Gombe, he has the least fear of me. I've always been able to get very close to even nervous individuals. And that's because I'm calm and"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 5, "text": "Did you learn to make the sounds that chimps use to communicate?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I doubt they think very much now. I think we're just part of the environment, as, you know, there are baboons and there are bush pigs, and we're just part of that natural environment to almost all of "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 6, "text": "How come you wouldn't use that language in the wild?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can make most of them. Most of the people studying chimps can make those sounds, but we don't actually make them in the wild. I sometimes make them to chimps in captive groups, and they usually repl"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 7, "text": "What else would you say to a chimp in captivity?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because we've always tried to be as unobtrusive as possible, to keep in the background, to let the chimpanzees get on with their lives, not to try and communicate with them, but to be part of the envi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 8, "text": "Is that a sound you could demonstrate for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I sometimes make the distance call, which chimpanzees at Gombe make when they're calling out from one side of a valley to the other, and they're basically identifying themselves or perhaps quest"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 9, "text": "In all your years in the field studying chimpanzees, were there particular aspects of chimp behavior that you felt you understood and were particularly like your own, particularly like the way humans behave?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I can demonstrate it, but I'll just lean away from the microphone because it's rather loud. But (vocalizing)."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 10, "text": "When you first went to the bush, you were given the opportunity to do that by the anthropologist Louis Leakey. And this was to be the first really long-term study of chimpanzees. Other people, I believe, had studied them for months at a time. You were supposed to go there for a few years. So you got there, and you went with your mother because you weren't allowed to go by yourself. What was that story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I think a lot. One of the most striking, really, is the nonverbal communication patterns - so that chimpanzees will kiss, embrace, hold hands, pat one another on the back, swagger, threaten by sha"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 11, "text": "What did she do to help you when you were getting started?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Young English women didn't do that sort of thing. In fact, as I grew up, I was told I couldn't. That's what I'd always wanted to do. But I had this great mother who always used to say, Jane, if you wa"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 12, "text": "How long did she stay with you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, she was fabulous. She had a clinic. Her brother was a surgeon, and he supplied her with all kinds of simple medications, like aspirins and Band-Aids and Epsom salts, you know, that kind of thing, "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 13, "text": "When you got to Tanzania and you knew you were there to watch and research the chimps, were they easy to find?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She was with me about - it was between 3 and 4 months. And by that time, the local authorities realized that, you know, it was OK and I was going to be all right. And I had a staff by then. I had a co"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 14, "text": "One chimp was the - particularly helpful to you because he was the first chimp that befriended you, shall we say. How - what did he do to help introduce you to the others?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. They used to run away. The first moment they saw me, they would depart into the undergrowth, and it was very frustrating. But gradually, from an open, rocky peak overlooking two valleys - one on t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 15, "text": "What were the signs that you were being accepted by the other chimps?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was fantastic. That was David Greybeard, and I probably owe more to him than any other chimp throughout these long 33 years. For some reason, he had a particularly calm and trusting disposition. Of"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 16, "text": "Would they approach you and make friendly gestures towards you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They didn't run away. They stayed when I could approach. And they would look up, and then they'd continue their grooming or their playing or their feeding or whatever it was they were doing before I c"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 17, "text": "Did it ever get to that point, as time went on, where chimps would come up to you and be friendly in a conscious way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no. Absolutely not. They just continued with what they were doing."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 18, "text": "You become too much of the story and start to change the chimp behavior by your presence and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you see, we tried to discourage all that kind of thing. They would sometimes come up to peer if there was a banana anywhere. But as we discouraged any kind of contact, we didn't really have that"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 19, "text": "...Involvement.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 20, "text": "That's interesting. Jane Goodall, I thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, it would be very easy to become part of the group. And then for one, that would disturb the natural behavior more than we do by being there anyway. And for another, it could be very dang"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 21, "text": "You went first to secretarial school", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Jane Goodall speaking with Terry Gross, recorded in 1993. We'll hear some of a second conversation the two had in 1999 after this short break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. And today, we're re"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 22, "text": ", which isn't the perfect training for a primatologist. What were you expecting to happen by - you know, what was your plan going to secretarial school?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Jane Goodall speaking with Terry Gross, recorded in 1993. We'll hear some of a second conversation the two had in 1999 after this short break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. And today, we're re"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 23, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, from the age of 8 or 9, I wanted to go to Africa, live with animals and write books about them. And that was because I fell in love with Tarzan and was terribly jealous of Tarzan's Jane. And I t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 24, "text": "How did you get a job as his secretary? How did you even meet him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, you know, everybody laughed at me. How could I go to Africa? We didn't have any money. It was during the second world war. There were no jets going over with tourists. And we just heard rumors ab"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 25, "text": "As a secretary?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was in London, and I had this wonderful job with documentary films, and it was quite..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 26, "text": "And what was your job when you were his personal secretary?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As a - well, a secretary, but not really. I sort of was choosing music and things like that for these documentary films. And it was a fascinating job, and I met lots of people, but it didn't pay very "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 27, "text": "And so he gave you the chimp project to do, researching chimpanzees in the wild?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it was just writing his letters and speaking to people on the phone and, you know, that kind of thing. But I had the amazing opportunity of going with him, his wife and one other young English gir"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 28, "text": "Did you think of Leakey as a early feminist in a way because he thought it was fine to have you, a young woman, heading this project and working alone in the wild?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. He had two major problems to overcome. One was, how was he going to get the money for this crazy scheme? I mean, in those days, young people didn't go tramping off living with animals in the bu"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 29, "text": "Now, you write that when you first started doing work in the wild, you weren't afraid of being harmed by wild animals. You believed that the animals would sense that you intended no harm, that you were there as a friend and that Leakey encouraged you to believe this. Do you think he should've discouraged you to believe this and given you a little more cause for concern?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR, and today we're remembering Jane Goodall, the internationally renowned conservationist and groundbreaking researcher of the behavior of chimpanzees in the wild. We're going to hear "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 30, "text": "Well, you just described a close call. Were you ever harmed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no, because at the same time, he taught me that I had to be very careful and that animals were dangerous or could be. And that, for example, if you got between a mother and her young, you'd be i"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 31, "text": "What did he do to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I never was actually harmed until quite recently. We have one chimp who's a bully, Fifi's son Frodo. And he just loves - he's not trying to actually really hurt or kill anyone, but because the gro"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 32, "text": "Well, you know, if it's a person, you could try to work things out verbally even after to reach some kind of verbal apology or agreement, which you can't do with the chimpanzee. Are you, you know, angry with him the way you would be with a person, or do you feel like, well, it's chimp behavior, and you're there to observe it, and you just accept this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he knocked me over, and then he stamped on me, and then he charged away. And then - which he does to lots of people. But for some reason, he charged back twice more and stamped and dragged and s"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 33, "text": "Well...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, theoretically, I think it's just chimp behavior. I must accept it. But actually, you know, chimps are so like people. I actually get pretty mad at him. It's just, you can't help it. You feel you"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 34, "text": "Has this incident changed your behavior around the chimps or how close you'll go to them, or is it just changing your behavior around this one chimp?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So, yeah, I get mad at him, and I try to avoid him."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 35, "text": "A lot of scientists have seen humans as the only animal that uses tools. And you basically saw a chimp working with a tool. What was the tool?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's just the one. I mean, the others are just the same wonderful chimps they always have been. And I think if I was there all the time, this problem would go away. I think it's because I disapp"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 36, "text": "So describe a little bit more how he was using this grass as a tool.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's right. And not only using it as a tool but actually making tools, which is the real breakthrough. It was a piece of grass, and it was being used by a chimpanzee whom I'd named David Greyb"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 37, "text": "So when you described this to Louis Leakey, what was his reaction?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the termites make a mound. There are a lot of different kinds of termites, and these make large, very, very hard earth compacted by their own saliva. And they're reddish colored. And at a certai"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 38, "text": "And so which did you end up doing? Redefining...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Now, we must redefine man, redefine tool or accept chimpanzees as humans."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 39, "text": "...Tool, man or accept chimps as human?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 40, "text": "You raised a child during your research in the forest in Tanzania. Was your approach to mothering affected by watching chimps mother their babies?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Jane Goodall speaking with Terry Gross in 1999. We'll hear more of their conversation in just a moment. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. And today, we're remembering Jane Goodall, known for her g"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 41, "text": "So did you try to be extra supportive, tolerant and playful with your child?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think it was. I mean, I consciously thought that what I'd learned from watching the chimpanzee mothers was very appropriate for raising a human child. I think one of the things that I've learn"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 42, "text": "So did you have researchers who were observing the chimps during those years when you were spending most of your time with your child?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And I also spent, you know, for the first three years, I basically was with him all the time. And people have said, oh, well, you're so lucky. You could do your research and stay with your child"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 43, "text": "I want to get back to being a mother in the wild. Did you have to protect your baby from the chimps?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. By that time, we'd built up the research station, which, of course, is still very dynamic and alive today. So we're actually approaching our 40th year of research. It's the longest unbroken "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 44, "text": "It must've changed your feelings about the chimps, too, knowing that they were a potential enemy.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, absolutely. Chimps are meat eaters. And they have been known to take human infants for food, including at Gombe. Well, at least in that part of - it was before it became a park, actually. And so i"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 45, "text": "Some of your most important findings from your research of chimps in the wild has to do with chimpanzee violence and how some chimpanzees may attack chimps of neighboring communities. Could you talk a little bit about what you found were possible motivations for these attacks?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was very disturbing to think that these wonderful chimpanzees might harm my baby, my precious baby, because up until that time I had thought that, although chimps were very like us in so many ways,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 46, "text": "Yeah, you compare some of this hostile chimp behavior to primitive warfare. In what way are they similar?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We believe that the really serious attacks on members of a neighboring community are due to a sort of territorial dispute. We find that they're very aggressively territorial and that groups of males w"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 47, "text": "Has your research led you to make any connections between chimp and human violence?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We had one period at Gombe which was, I think, the darkest period in Gombe's history, which we refer to as the Four-Year War. And it happened after the main study group had divided. And there was a pe"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 48, "text": "Just one more thing. We only have a few seconds. You say that, you know, you really do love people. Do a lot of people assume that since you've spent so much time in the wild, often alone, studying chimps that maybe you're antisocial?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. It suggests, if we believe in Darwinian evolution, if we believe, as Louis did and I do, that at one time we shared a common ancestor, then it seems fairly clear that we have inherited certain vi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 49, "text": "Oh, great answer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Some people do feel that. And they say, which do I like best, chimps or people? And I say, well, chimps are so like us that I like some people much more than some chimps, and some chimps much more tha"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5567206", "date": "2025-10-10", "guest": "Jane Goodall", "title": "Remembering primate expert and conservationist Jane Goodall", "question_index": 50, "text": "Jane Goodall, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Some people do feel that. And they say, which do I like best, chimps or people? And I say, well, chimps are so like us that I like some people much more than some chimps, and some chimps much more tha"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today, we remember actor Diane Keaton, who has died at the age of 79. We'll listen back to my 1997 interview with her. Among the things we talked about were her performance in \"Annie Hall,\" for which she won an Oscar, and her role on \"The Godfather.\" First, we'll hear an appreciation from our TV critic David Bianculli.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 1, "text": "David Bianculli is a TV historian and FRESH AIR's TV critic. He'll be back later in the show to review a new documentary about actor John Candy. Now we're going to hear the interview I recorded with Diane Keaton in 1997. We talked about several of her films. We began with a clip from \"Marvin's Room,\" which had just been released and earned her an Oscar nomination. Keaton and Meryl Streep starred as sisters with opposite temperaments. Keaton played Bessie, who has dedicated her life to taking care of her father ever since a stroke left him bedridden. Streep played Lee, who's cut herself off from the family to establish an independent life. After Bessie is diagnosed with leukemia, Lee returns to visit for the first time in years. Keaton's character, Bessie, confronts her.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Annie Hall\" made Diane Keaton a major star, and the outfit she put together for that character made her a major fashion influencer before influencers were a thing. But by then, she'd already been in "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 2, "text": "Your role in \"Marvin's Room\" is really the opposite of the kind of role we first got to know you from in your Woody Allen movies. Your character of Bessie is somebody who, first of all, dresses in very kind of Kmart-type fashions. Lives in...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Bessie) What decision? Dad got sick, and I came down to help out for a little while. You didn't."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Yeah", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Literally."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 4, "text": ". Lives in a very sheltered world, is steadfast in her devotion to her family and has very little of a life outside of that. She's the kind of person who doesn't leave home, who's never left home. And you're so convincing in both of those kind of roles, but this one somehow seems really far from your own life to me. Is it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Literally."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. I would say..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 6, "text": "But this is a character who's kind of given up her own independence and her own personal pursuits to take care of her father and her aunt. Now, when you're an actress, you have to be the opposite, in a way. You have to be selfish in a professional sense. I mean, you have to kind of make a lot of sacrifices to pursue your career, to really obsess on roles and things like that. So what did you draw on for this character who was so different from you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "from my life. No, that - there's clearly really nothing in common between Bessie and I, except probably just this intense identification with her for me when I read it. So I wanted to give it a try. S"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think what I drew on was my wish to play somebody like that. I really don't - do you know? And also, I think, of course, family. There's no question that my most intense feelings of affection are wi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Right. You know what I find so interesting about you? As I said, I think you're really convincing in so many different kinds of roles. And in \"Marvin's Room,\" you're playing a character that is really very honest. Nothing is couched in irony. And many of your other characters, well, particularly in the Woody Allen movies, there's so many things that have quotation marks around them. And I guess I'm interested in what it's like to inhabit both of those worlds through your roles, you know, the character who doesn't live in a world of irony and then the character who does.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Like I am in life."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 9, "text": "I did, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's easier for me to be in the world of the ironic because it sort of comes more naturally to me. I had trouble with this part regarding certain primary scenes. And I'm talking about the part of Bess"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You have to say those lines. And I was going, no, because listen, let me tell you something. As far as I'm concerned, if somebody called me up, if some doctor called me up and said - guess what? - not"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 11, "text": "No, but let me ask you this. How do you decide, with lines like that, whether there's something that doesn't ring true about the script or whether...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 12, "text": "...It's just that you're a different kind of person than the character?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, because I don't..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well, it must be interesting now that you're directing more, too, because when you perform, you're acting...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I think that it did ring true with the script. I think I did have to say those lines because I think that that's the kind of person she is at the core, that she can leave it. And she can accept th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Yeah, but now you can act as your own director in a way. And you're wearing two hats and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Even when directing, though, I have a tendency..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 15, "text": "No. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No, no, no, no, no, no, Terry. No, no."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, you're not doing...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No way. I don't think you really have - I'm not one of those people who I have a third eye or anything. I mean, when I'm acting, I'm acting, and I need help. And when I'm directing, I'm watching, I'm "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think naturally - you know what? I'm going to get back to answering your question."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 18, "text": "Than drama.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that I'm more inclined to live comfortably in the world of humor."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 19, "text": "But you're very convincing in drama. You really are.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Oh, well, I mean, everyone's told me that, too. So I think it's true."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 20, "text": ". Diane Keaton, your mother was a beauty queen, yes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, because I really beat myself up to get there."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. No, here's what she was. Although, she is very beautiful, by the way. No, she was Mrs. Los Angeles."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's entirely different. It means that when I was growing up in the '50s..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 23, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And I remember sitting down on the stage and watching her being crowned Mrs. Highland Park. And it was that she was the perfect homemaker. To win Mrs. Highland Park, she kept making these chocolate "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 24, "text": "What did she win when she won Mrs. Highland Park?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "she was too good for them."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 25, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, appliances. Oh, please."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 26, "text": "Did you want to be a happy homemaker?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, just the best appliances ever and, you know, luggage and all those great things."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 27, "text": "It's funny. So you kind of got the wrong message here. She was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". There she was in the theater, and I saw the curtain open, and there was my mother. And I thought, I think I like that for myself."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 28, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. I got the total wrong message."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 29, "text": "Yeah, she was presented as the picture of domesticity. And you interpreted that as show business.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "How like life."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 30, "text": "We're listening to my 1997 interview with Diane Keaton. We'll hear more of it after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Leave it to me."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 31, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're listening back to the interview I recorded with Diane Keaton in 1997. Her career spanned more than five decades and included performances in the Woody Allen films \"Annie Hall\" and \"Manhattan,\" as well as \"The Godfather\" trilogy, \"Looking For Mr. Goodbar,\" \"Father Of The Bride,\" \"The First Wives Club\" and \"Something's Gotta Give.\" She got her start in theater, and when she was 22, she appeared in the original Broadway production of \"Hair.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Leave it to me."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 32, "text": "One of your early roles was in \"Hair.\" And every profile I've read of you, every written profile...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Leave it to me."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 33, "text": "Exactly. Every...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I didn't take off my clothes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 34, "text": "...Profile mentions that during the nude scenes or nude scenes in \"Hair\" that when everybody else was naked, you were wearing a body stocking. And I couldn't help but wonder if the cast...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 35, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I wasn't wearing a body stocking. No, no."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 36, "text": "So how did...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The situation was that we were all under this huge tarp or something, doing - you know, and we were lying there, and there would be holes in the tarp. And people would stand up at the appropriate mome"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 37, "text": "So how did you avoid doing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's the only reason I didn't do it. It just - you know, it wasn't worth it."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 38, "text": "Oh, OK. But did...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't. It wasn't a requirement by any means."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 39, "text": "No", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was optional, and it was suggested, and you would get $50 extra."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 40, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was optional, and it was suggested, and you would get $50 extra."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 41, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a money gig. It was a money gig."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 42, "text": "That's funny. So did anybody in the cast kind of make fun of the people who were not willing to take their clothes off?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's like everything else."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 43, "text": "Now I want to ask you about your early films with Woody Allen. You first worked with him in the Broadway production of \"Play It Again, Sam,\" which he wrote...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not really, but it was sort of, get behind the spirit of it all. But hey, frankly, I was a - you know, I'd just graduated from the Neighborhood Playhouse, and I really wasn't a hippie. I never was a h"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 44, "text": "...And also starred in. Oh, right after \"Hair\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, right after \"Hair.\""}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 45, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "While I was in \"Hair.\" When I was in \"Hair,\" I auditioned for \"Play it Again, Sam...\""}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 46, "text": "What was the audition like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Which is interesting."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 47, "text": "Why not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, what I remember about it, of course, is being terrified - typical - and him. I remember that he got on stage with me. And I remember being very attracted to him because I already was attract"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 48, "text": "When you started working with him, did you relate to his brand of New York Jewish neurosis humor?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because there were a lot of other people auditioning, and why me? I didn't know. But anyway, I did."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 49, "text": "Oh, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, of course. I'd seen him on \"The Tonight Show.\" I thought he was hilarious. Oh, sure. Who didn't? Do you remember? I mean, do you remember when he was coming up?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 50, "text": "But, you know, the movies are based in part on the tension between your background and his background. And you're always cast, you know, in his movies as - or not - or usually cast in his movies as, like, the shiksa, the one who's not Jewish", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was - I mean, you just fell in love with him. Or I did, anyway."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 51, "text": ". And so there's this kind of interplay between, you know, the Jewish neurotic East Coaster and the woman who's not from the East Coast, whose neuroses are kind of different and not Jewish. Did that tension come from real life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was - I mean, you just fell in love with him. Or I did, anyway."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 52, "text": "Did...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I think so. I would say sure."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 53, "text": "Did you see yourself differently through his eyes, through the character that he created for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "At this point, yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 54, "text": "Sure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Are you talking about \"Annie Hall?\""}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 55, "text": "Let's talk about \"Annie Hall.\" Let's focus it and talk about \"Annie Hall.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Or it's just about (ph)..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 56, "text": "We're listening back to my 1997 interview with Diane Keaton. She's died at the age of 79. We'll hear more of the interview after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I think that frankly, when I read the script, I just flipped. I knew it was great, and it was very easy just to be. But I didn't - I mean, I didn't really think that it was per se me, although"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 57, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're remembering Diane Keaton, who's died at the age of 79. Keaton starred in the classic films \"Annie Hall,\" for which she won an Oscar, and \"The Godfather\" trilogy, as well as \"Looking For Mr. Goodbar,\" \"Reds,\" \"Mrs. Soffel,\" \"Father Of The Bride,\" \"The First Wives Club\" and \"Something's Gotta Give.\" Here's a scene from \"Annie Hall,\" in which she co-starred with Woody Allen, who also directed the film. She and Woody Allen's character had just been introduced to each other on the tennis court. Now they're preparing to leave.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I think that frankly, when I read the script, I just flipped. I knew it was great, and it was very easy just to be. But I didn't - I mean, I didn't really think that it was per se me, although"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 58, "text": "Now, the inflections that you used in \"Annie Hall,\" a voice that's often speaking in irony, a voice that has a lot of insecurity in it as well as humor - how did you come up with that inflection?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Annie Hall) I can go uptown, too. I live uptown, but what the hell? I mean, it'd be nice having company, you know? I mean, I hate driving alone."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 59, "text": "No.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that - I didn't even come up with it. I just delivered it. It was just there. I think that was something that he trusted and enjoyed. Did you happen to read that profile on him in The New Yorker"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 60, "text": "Yeah. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was interesting because Dianne Wiest was talking about him. And if something isn't working, he's very simple about why it isn't working. Well, with \"Annie Hall,\" when I was doing \"Annie Hall,\" ev"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 61, "text": "Was your inflections and your voice in \"Annie Hall\" a voice that you really spoke in, or is it the voice of the character that you found? And what was your process of finding it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's - he just cuts through all the time in every way."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 62, "text": "Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I think I spoke in that character at that point in my life."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 63, "text": "Did you say la-di-da", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that's the way I talked."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 64, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that's the way I talked."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 65, "text": "How did - was that on the page? I mean, if I saw la-di-da on the page, I'd think, oh, man, this is never going to work. And of course it really works terrifically. Did you think...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Never did say that, though. That, he wrote."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 66, "text": "Well, it wouldn't to me on the page. It really would not.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's because - it worked because - I think that there was this - it was the way we were working. In other words, it's how he directs, which is to loosen it up, just to loosen the whole thing u"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 67, "text": "But it does in the movie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 68, "text": "Now, I want to ask you about the \"Godfather\" movies. You're in all three of them. Now, in - particularly in the first two movies, you're the woman in a world of men. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It worked, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 69, "text": "But...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have to laugh."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 70, "text": "And that's really brought home at the end of the first \"Godfather\" movie, where Al Pacino...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, that's such a funny. Yes, I was. I was the woman in a world of men."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 71, "text": "Yeah - slams the door in your face...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a great moment, isn't it?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 72, "text": "...And makes it really clear...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 73, "text": "...That now that he's the head of the family...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I love it."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 74, "text": "...You're going to be shut out of a lot of his life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's the head, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 75, "text": "Right, a role - you're...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, it's a world I know nothing about. Do you know, when we were making it, it was just - I didn't know what was going on, and I just did feel left out. I really felt that way. And I also felt I'd nev"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 76, "text": "Yes, and sensible, down to Earth practical.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...So serious."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 77, "text": "So in what ways did you feel maybe kind of left out or the outsider on the \"Godfather\" sets?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm telling you, it's nothing - I never got it. And he never - I don't know what made him pick me. That was a lucky break."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 78, "text": "What about Al Pacino though? You had a relationship with him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think in every way, I felt the outsider. There was nobody that really became my friend on those movies. I guess, you know, I really..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 79, "text": "What did you have to do for the audition?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But not as - I mean, it wasn't like we palled out. We weren't - do you know what I mean? He was very private and separate from me. And in the first one, I really didn't know him very well, and I think"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 80, "text": "My guest is Diane Keaton. Here she is as Kay Corleone with Al Pacino as Michael Corleone in a scene from \"Godfather II. Their marriage is on the rocks, and she's just had what he assumes was a miscarriage.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Read with a lot of different guys - I read with Jimmy Caan. They couldn't decide on Al Pacino. They just couldn't decide. They didn't know what to do. I think Francis' heart was with Al Pacino, but a "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 81, "text": "We'll get back to our interview with Diane Keaton after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Kay) They're my children too."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 82, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my 1997 interview with Diane Keaton. She's best known for her performances in classic Woody Allen films, including \"Annie Hall,\" as well as \"The Godfather\" trilogy. She also directed several films and episodes for television.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Kay) They're my children too."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 83, "text": "Now, you've been in films that are just kind of landmarks in American film history now, and you've also been in some really fine films that haven't become as famous. And I'd like you to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Kay) They're my children too."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 84, "text": "...Choose one of those films that you particularly like and would like to call people's attention to.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 85, "text": "Well, I like your performance a lot in \"Mrs. Soffel,\" where you play the wife of a prison guard who ends up falling in love with one of the prisoners and helps him escape. And it's just a very interesting performance.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ooh. I don't know. You pick it. I can't pick what's good. I don't know."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 86, "text": "When you started directing, or maybe even now when you direct, are you or have you ever been shy or uncomfortable about assuming the power one needs to assume in order to direct?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was so excited by that part. I wanted that so bad. I was after Gill - Gillian Armstrong, the director - for so many years. I was - kept trying to snatch her up and get her to do something with me. I"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 87, "text": "Did you have to find a different voice to use? I mean, the voice that you're most famous for in terms of movie roles is that voice of being unsure. And you can't - I don't think you can really speak with that voice when you're trying to be confident in giving directions to other people, especially, like, very sensitive actors and actresses who might be wounded by criticism.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Oh, that's so obviously yes. Yeah, no question about it. I mean, it's not my way, but it's the desire to do it that overrides the fear of saying to somebody, that's not good. We've got to do"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 88, "text": "Now I want to ask you about the success of \"First Wives Club.\" One of the issues that's approached in a comic way in \"First Wives Club\" is the issue of plastic surgery.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think actors know when they're not toeing the line. I believe in the instincts of the actors. And I believe if you cast it correctly, if you have the privilege to cast it correctly, because that's n"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 89, "text": "Is it really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, there we go. I love it. This is my favorite topic in life."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 90, "text": "Well, there are so many pressures in the entertainment industry...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, of course. I mean, it's just so big for all us girls out there who are over 40."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 91, "text": "...To have it. And I really understand why some actresses feel like they have no choice. My impression is that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, give me a break."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 92, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But how can you play - here's my feeling..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 93, "text": "Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know? How can you be an authentic character? Unless, of course, you're playing an inauthentic - I mean, how can you be a real woman age 60 playing a part of a woman, let's say, in the South who"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 94, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And there are so many things..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 95, "text": "May I say thank you? I feel that, you know, the emphasis...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...That are taken away from you. And why would you want to play a part when you're younger? Because you're not younger. You can't be younger. So what is the point of - in other words, what I'm saying "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 96, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Watch me, though. Watch me. Next month..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 97, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I'll have a face-lift. I tell you, I'll come over there."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 98, "text": "No, but I feel like it's a self-perpetuating standard that the more women who do give in under pressure and have plastic surgery, the more pressure everybody else becomes under, too. And the more everybody feels like they have...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You'll see me, Terry. You'll go, what happened to her? And I'll be smiling that look, that sort of mask look."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 99, "text": "...No choice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You're..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 100, "text": "I'm wondering if you still sing. You started your career as a singer, both cabaret and rock. You sang in \"Annie Hall.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Absolutely right. You're absolutely right. It's a tough call. And I admire those women who don't. Look at Jessica Tandy. There was a face for Jessica Tandy. There was a face for you. She never touc"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 101, "text": "Do you still sing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 102, "text": "Yes, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I used to take singing lessons. I took singing lessons for, like, 10 years from this woman, Janet Frank, out of New York, who I love, who's just a wonderful woman. I think I just was so in l"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 103, "text": "What's the difference between a singing thing and an acting thing in approaching a song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Which made it nice for me."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 104, "text": "What, the Motown song or?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that it's the words. It's what you're saying. That's the acting approach. And then that's how you approach the style of song. Of course, I have a limited thing in terms of being a singer. It's"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 105, "text": "Right. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, you don't own me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"You Don't Own Me.\" It's something we sang."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 106, "text": "My interview with Diane Keaton was recorded in 1997. She's died at the age of 79. Toward the end of her Oscar-winning performance in \"Annie Hall,\" she sings the song \"Seems Like Old Times.\" I've always loved the way she sang this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that was really fun. And I danced, which I don't do. And that was fun, too. So I look forward to another opportunity to try. I don't know if I'll get another one, but we'll see."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5574104", "date": "2025-10-14", "guest": "Diane Keaton", "title": "Remembering Diane Keaton, the iconic star of 'Annie Hall' and 'The Godfather'", "question_index": 107, "text": "After we take a short break, our TV critic David Bianculli returns to review a new documentary about actor John Candy. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Annie Hall) Thank you."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 0, "text": "I'm Terry Gross. Divisions in our country are often traced back to the Civil War. But the divisions go all the way back to the Revolutionary War. It wasn't just a war against the British. It was a bloody civil war in the colonies between the revolutionaries, who call themselves the patriots, and the loyalists who wanted to remain under British rule. The Revolutionary War is the subject of a new documentary series made by America's best-known documentary filmmaker, Ken Burns, along with Sarah Botstein and David Schmidt. Burns describes the Revolutionary War as the most consequential revolution in history. The series tells the story not only from the perspectives of the Founding Fathers, the generals and the fighters. It includes the stories of people left out of the declaration's statement all men are created equal. That's women, Native Americans, enslaved people and free Black people. Making this film, Burns says, led him to new perspectives on the fundamental questions about the founding. This 12-part series premieres on most public TV stations Sunday, November 16, with two hour-long episodes on six consecutive nights. The subjects of Burns' other documentaries shown on public TV include the Civil War, the war in Vietnam, baseball, jazz, country music and our national parks. We recorded our interview onstage at the Freedom Mortgage Pavilion in Camden, New Jersey, next to the river depicted in the famous painting Washington Crossing the Delaware.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 1, "text": "I have to tell you, Ken, that this series was like a revelation for me. I never studied the Revolutionary War in depth. I knew bits and pieces. And it was really a revelation. So my first question to you is, what really surprised you? Like, tell us one thing that really surprised you in doing the research because you uncovered so much and had so much source material.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 2, "text": "One of the things that really surprised me - we always talk, especially now, about how divided our nation is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I have to acknowledge my codirectors, Sarah Botstein and David Schmidt. We've worked for nearly 10 years with our writer, Geoff Ward, and an extraordinarily good team of people figuring out maps"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 3, "text": "In my mind, that goes back to the Civil War. But now I think, oh, that goes back to the founding. That goes back to the Revolution.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 4, "text": "Yeah. So let's talk about the divisive nature of the Revolutionary War and the colonies. Tell us briefly some of the arguments for being a loyalist, being loyal to Britain, and for being a revolutionary and fighting for independence from Britain and the king.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We've always been divided. I don't know if you can take comfort from it, given the current state of affairs. But I do believe that the historian's perspective is one that permits you to understand, as"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 5, "text": "Yeah. And I was amazed that America was so divided during the Revolutionary War that Ben Franklin's son was a loyalist. He was siding with the British. And Abigail Adams, John Adams' wife, the first vice president's wife, she initially thought like, you are really underestimating the amount of anarchy and violence this is going to lead to. This is not going to be an easy thing. And she was so right. But by the time the revolution was over, she was fully behind independence and revolution.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, loyalists, they think that their prosperity - the fact that they own land, their health, their literacy - all of it has come from the British constitutional monarchy. Why rock the boat for some "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 6, "text": "So in terms of the brother against brother, neighbor against neighbor, we're talking about, like, freelance fighting. And, I mean, we're talking about militias, too. But in addition to the militias, in addition to the actual armies, you also have just individuals attacking each other, burning each other's houses, seeking revenge. I didn't know that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The is the story. And it's not even that one person is a loyalist and another person's a patriot, and their positions are held. There are people who change. Benjamin Franklin's son, William, was the r"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 7, "text": "One of the things I love about your series is it talks about the Revolution not just from, like, the Founding Fathers. You get to the women. You get to the enslaved and the free Black people. You get to the Native Americans. So let's start with the enslaved and the free Black people. They were fighting in the army on both sides.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Nor did we. I don't think we understood. When the British are dominant, the loyalists are taking revenge on their patriot neighbors. And when the reverse happens, the patriots are doing the same. And "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 8, "text": "So what were they promised on each side?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 9, "text": "So the British promised that enslaved people, if they fought with the Brits, would be freed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the war is big and global, as I said. But it's also intimate, down to a family or an individual's decision. About 20% of the population of 2.5 to 3 million people included in the colonies, excludin"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 10, "text": "Did the Americans make the same promise?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 11, "text": "And Washington, when he saw Black people in the militia, he didn't want them there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, except in Rhode Island and a few other northern states, particularly Rhode Island, in which those Black regiments that were made up of both free and enslaved were promised their freedom. But it wa"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 12, "text": "By the end of?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He arrives a Virginian and a very wealthy man and an owner, like Jefferson, of hundreds of human beings over the course of his lifetime. And he arrives in Boston and discovers that the army that he is"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 13, "text": "So I want to quote something that Washington says because I found this a fascinating quote. And he's talking about how upsetting it is to see one brother killing another. And he says, the once happy and peaceful plains of America are either to be drenched with blood or inhabited by slaves. Sad alternative but can a virtuous man hesitate in his choice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of his life, he understands, as Jefferson knows, too, that slavery is wrong. It's a complicated thing that defies the sort of binary."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 14, "text": "So he's not talking about enslaved people. He's talking about himself.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 15, "text": "That he is being treated like a slave by the British. Like, that's the choice that the colonists have, to be treated as a slave by the British or to fight. And I'm thinking, hey, you're an enslaver. You are not a slave.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 16, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded onstage with Ken Burns. His new documentary series, \"The American Revolution,\" premieres on most PBS stations Sunday, November 16. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So this is the whole conundrum of the Revolution. Many people began to describe their situation within British America as being dependent or slaves to them. And the irony is not lost on everybody. It'"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the onstage interview I recorded with Ken Burns about his new documentary series, \"The American Revolution.\" It premieres on most PBS stations November 16. Was there anybody speaking up during the Revolution about ensuring rights for women or Native Americans, or enslaved people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So this is the whole conundrum of the Revolution. Many people began to describe their situation within British America as being dependent or slaves to them. And the irony is not lost on everybody. It'"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 18, "text": "During the Revolution?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Everywhere, all the time, it's going on. Abigail Adams..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 19, "text": "Let's talk about Native Americans in the Revolution. So as you mentioned, the British had fought the French and Indian War. Native Americans were siding with the French at that time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "During the Revolution, Abigail Adams is saying - you know, we have this phrase that comes down to us, and we leave it. Remember the ladies. It sounds dainty, and we leave it alone. But she says, all h"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 20, "text": "Some of them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Some of them. Some of them..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 21, "text": "Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Were with the British, some were with the French."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 22, "text": "The Europe prediction (ph).", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And remember, there - colonies are superimposed over many tribal lands, and so there's coexistence and even assimilation of Native peoples among the colonists. And then you have all of these separate "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 23, "text": "And Washington owned tens of thousands of acres of Native American land. How did he get them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...On the Haudenosaunee falls apart as a result of the American Revolution."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 24, "text": "So let's talk about women. And an image that you have in your film really sticks in my mind of, like, women in a stream washing blood out of clothes. And you talk in the movie about how women's jobs, part of it was washing the blood out of clothes so that the clothes of the dead soldiers could be given to fighters who were wearing tatters, you know, tattered clothes. Tell us more about the role that women played during the Revolutionary War.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So you survey it, you speculate, and while many of the recent immigrants and colonists are hoping to flow over the Appalachians and take over Indian land, you know, 125 acres to own land for the first"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 25, "text": "We're listening to the onstage interview I recorded with Ken Burns about his new PBS series, \"The American Revolution.\" It premieres on most PBS stations November 16. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The role of women is essential. They are responsible for sustaining the resistance period in the 10 or so years leading up to the actual warfare, beginning in April of 1775. Our idea of battles as sol"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the onstage interview I recorded with Ken Burns about his new documentary series, \"The American Revolution.\" It premieres on most PBS stations Sunday, November 16, and runs for six consecutive nights. The series includes the perspectives of women, enslaved and freed Black people and Indigenous people - the people left out of the declaration's statement, all men are created equal. The Revolutionary War was also a bloody, violent civil war, with the revolutionaries and those who were loyal to British rule fighting each other on and off the battlefield. Before the war started, Abigail Adams, who was married to Founding Father John Adams, warned that people were underestimating the amount of anarchy and violence a revolutionary war would lead to. Well, hearing Abigail Adams' prediction about how horrible a revolutionary war would be and learning more through your film about how horrible it was and all the blood and anarchy and brother and brother fighting against each other. I'm so war averse, which isn't to say I'm a pacifist, but I grew up watching World War II movies 'cause it wasn't long after World War II. And then there was Vietnam and, you know, seeing just all of that horror made me very - you know, feeling lucky that I've never had to live through a war in my own country. And so it made me wonder, watching your documentary, which side would I be on? I'm not sure that I would be a revolutionary because I wouldn't want to have war in my neighborhood. I wouldn't want to lose all the men in my life to war. If I was a mother, I wouldn't want to lose my son. I'm a sister. I wouldn't want to lose my brother. Have you thought about that, which side would you have been on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The role of women is essential. They are responsible for sustaining the resistance period in the 10 or so years leading up to the actual warfare, beginning in April of 1775. Our idea of battles as sol"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 27, "text": "Constantly.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that's the fundamental question, and I really don't know what side I'd be on. I don't know whether I could take up arms for a cause, whether I would be willing to die for a cause, whether I wo"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 28, "text": "Like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Risked to his..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 29, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Fortune. Constantly."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 30, "text": "And living with his men in the freezing cold...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And let's remember that in addition - between his flaws and between the bad military decisions that he made often, he also rides out on the battlefield, risking everything at Kips Bay in mid-Manhattan"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 31, "text": "...In the winter.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Living with the men..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 32, "text": "But that's the thing. A lot of the wealthy landowners who start off fighting for independence, they end up going home. And then it's the relatively poor people, the people who don't own land and teenagers and felons, you say, who become the army. And it's kind of remarkable...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...In the freezing cold and being able to inspire them. This is, like, the richest guy in America, or one of the richest guys in America. And at Valley Forge, he loses something like 500 major officer"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 33, "text": "...That they succeeded.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's remarkable."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 34, "text": "They had no training.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 35, "text": "So are...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's zero chance that they're going to succeed at Lexington Green on April 19, 1775. And this is a war that has been proposed and sort of undertaken by property owners, from militiamen who are farm"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 36, "text": "Are you saying that, like, all men are created equal, that beautiful phrases like that are because of gratitude to the people who...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Democracy."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 37, "text": "...Fought...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 38, "text": "...Or, you know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. They..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 39, "text": "...A promise that they made to get them to stay in the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 40, "text": "...Army?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is early..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 41, "text": "We're listening to the interview I recorded onstage with Ken Burns. His new documentary series, \"The American Revolution,\" premieres on most PBS stations Sunday, November 16. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's early in the war, and I don't think they've fully come to the idea. When he said all men are created equal, he meant all white men of property free of debt. And we don't mean that anymore. And "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 42, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the onstage interview I recorded with Ken Burns about his new documentary series, \"The American Revolution.\" It premieres on most PBS stations November 16. When I was preparing the interview, I found myself focusing a lot on, like, Washington's flaws, like his hypocrisy about slavery and what happened to the Native Americans and the enslaved and free Black people who fought in the war and the women and - because those stories haven't been told in the same way that the founding fathers and the poetic language of the founding documents, that's part of what really interested me in your series. So I don't mean to just, like, focus on the negatives, but these are, like, the untold or lesser-told parts of the story. I was wondering, if you were showing this in a Smithsonian museum or instead of outside on a night in New Jersey, in Camden, if you were showing it in a national park, would you be canceled?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "HOE-DOWN\")"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 43, "text": "Because it's so DEI, if I may say.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "HOE-DOWN\")"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 44, "text": "You know? 'Cause you're focusing on the people whose stories haven't sufficiently been told.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 45, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've always thought that another way of saying DEI is e pluribus unum."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 46, "text": "Yes, but wait...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Part of the dilemma, the trap, the mistake of argument is that we become so dialectically preoccupied - one side or the other. We see things in simple binaries that don't exist. And so Richard Powers,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 47, "text": "Wait, I'm going to stop you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Is a really good story. Conservatives are supposed to love the series \"Yellowstone,\" and that is a film about a rancher..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 48, "text": "I want to stop you to say that you did a series on national parks. Look at what's happening in the national parks. History has literally been escorted out of the parks - taken down, erased. And that's the climate that we're living in now. So, in reality, you might have been canceled if it was at the Smithsonian if - or it was in a national park. Are there bits of history that you, for instance, treasure in the national parks that you became very familiar with when you were doing your series that are gone now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Is a really good story. Conservatives are supposed to love the series \"Yellowstone,\" and that is a film about a rancher..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 49, "text": "Because everybody loves a good story, but we know we're living in a time when history is being erased...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 50, "text": "...And diversity is being punished.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's pretty complicated to just..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 51, "text": "Well, that's another thing. The Corporation for Public Broadcasting has been shut down.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They did just scrub the word Enola Gay, which is the mother of the pilot who dropped the first atomic bomb, and that was the name of his plane, the Enola Gay, because it had the word gay in it. And I'"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 52, "text": "And I know all of public radio and public television has lost money. You've lost some of your funding.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They did just scrub the word Enola Gay, which is the mother of the pilot who dropped the first atomic bomb, and that was the name of his plane, the Enola Gay, because it had the word gay in it. And I'"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 53, "text": "It was already promised.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've lost a great deal, millions of dollars, as a result of the rescission, which, as you know, clawed back two years of money that had been authorized..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 54, "text": "I'm proud to be an American has new meaning to me because I realized, like, during the Revolutionary War, when somebody said I'm proud to be an American, what they kind of meant was I no longer consider myself British.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And appropriated and promised, and it's gone away. And it's an incredibly shortsighted thing. This is a network, in the case of PBS, that had William F. Buckley, a noted conservative's, show on for"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 55, "text": "I'm a patriot. I'm not a loyalist. And I'm proud to be a patriot fighting for freedom and revolution. I'm proud to be an American. It just had totally different meaning to me. I wonder, like, if you felt that way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 56, "text": "Ken Burns, it's time for us to end. I thank you so much for being here. Thank you for this series. Like I said, it was a revelation. And congratulations to you and your team and your codirectors and coproducers.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have been, Terry, engaged with trying to tell the stories about this complex American project for 50 years, and whether it's about the Brooklyn Bridge or the national parks or the Shakers. But stran"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5580245", "date": "2025-10-20", "guest": "Ken Burns", "title": "Ken Burns' 'American Revolution' series includes voices the founders overlooked", "question_index": 57, "text": "My interview with Ken Burns was recorded October 9 onstage at the Freedom Mortgage Pavilion in Camden, New Jersey. Thanks to WHYY's Nancy Stuski, Gianna Tripodi-Bhise, Yvette Murray, Ali L'Esperance, Julian Herzfeld and Adam Staniszewski. After we take a short break, classical music critic Lloyd Schwartz will play recordings by a singer he recently discovered and really loves. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5581578", "date": "2025-10-22", "guest": "Zanny Minton Beddoes", "title": "Confused by the U.S. economy? You're not alone", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. President Trump's immigration policies, his tariffs, enabling DOGE to fire or lay off tens of thousands of federal workers are all creating an environment of financial uncertainty. It's rattling consumers, as well as many businesses, investors and global leaders, and yet the stock market has remained high. Why? To explain the impact of these policies and proposals, with an extra portion of uncertainty caused by the government shutdown, we invited the editor-in-chief of The Economist, Zanny Minton Beddoes, to join us. She's also the host of \"The Insider,\" The Economist's new streaming show. She previously was the publication's business editor and economics editor and is a former economist for the International Monetary Fund. We recorded our interview yesterday. Zanny Minton Beddoes, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Of all the financial moves Trump and his administration have been making, is there any one thing that you find most confounding or most...", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5581578", "date": "2025-10-22", "guest": "Zanny Minton Beddoes", "title": "Confused by the U.S. economy? You're not alone", "question_index": 1, "text": "...Impactful? Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5581578", "date": "2025-10-22", "guest": "Zanny Minton Beddoes", "title": "Confused by the U.S. economy? You're not alone", "question_index": 2, "text": "So how much of the stock market's boom right now is a result of AI? I think you've written that like 40% of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first of all, it's very nice to join you again. That's a hard one to answer because, you know, what is remarkable is that in the face of a lot of shocks - some positive, many negative - the econ"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5581578", "date": "2025-10-22", "guest": "Zanny Minton Beddoes", "title": "Confused by the U.S. economy? You're not alone", "question_index": 3, "text": "So for people who aren't invested in those companies, how are they doing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, a huge amount. If you look at really the stocks that are doing extraordinarily well, it is the Big Tech companies, the Magnificent Seven, as they're often called - Meta, Tesla, Alphabet - former"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5581578", "date": "2025-10-22", "guest": "Zanny Minton Beddoes", "title": "Confused by the U.S. economy? You're not alone", "question_index": 4, "text": "And the tariffs aren't all in place yet, so businesses really don't know what to do, so we're also not seeing the effects on consumers yet because of that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, if they're invested in the stock market at all, they're not doing nearly as well as if they were invested in those companies. And if they don't hold hold shares - and many Americans don't - then"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5581578", "date": "2025-10-22", "guest": "Zanny Minton Beddoes", "title": "Confused by the U.S. economy? You're not alone", "question_index": 5, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the story of the tariffs, Terry, is interesting because if you cast your mind back to the beginning of April, if you remember, President Trump stood in the Rose Garden with that big board on whi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5581578", "date": "2025-10-22", "guest": "Zanny Minton Beddoes", "title": "Confused by the U.S. economy? You're not alone", "question_index": 6, "text": "Well, the most consequential of the tariffs right now will probably be the tariffs with China and China's retaliation against the tariffs. And that's - there's threats, but it's not worked out yet. The treasury secretary, Scott Bessent, is going to meet with China's No. 2 later this week. President Trump is going to meet with President Xi sometime soon, they say. So we don't even know what the result of that is, but Trump is threatening, like, 100% tariffs on Chinese goods. Or is it 100% in addition to what he's already proposed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was a very real fear that we would go into something like the 1930s, when there was a trade war, you know, globally, and the U.S. put up its tariffs under the Smoot\u2013Hawley Act, and then other co"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5581578", "date": "2025-10-22", "guest": "Zanny Minton Beddoes", "title": "Confused by the U.S. economy? You're not alone", "question_index": 7, "text": "I lose track.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He - it's hard to..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5581578", "date": "2025-10-22", "guest": "Zanny Minton Beddoes", "title": "Confused by the U.S. economy? You're not alone", "question_index": 8, "text": "Do you think that Trump did not count on retaliation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're right. It is hard to keep track, but China is a really interesting case. And it's, to me, an interesting case of a country that has stood up to President Trump and actually prevailed, because i"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5581578", "date": "2025-10-22", "guest": "Zanny Minton Beddoes", "title": "Confused by the U.S. economy? You're not alone", "question_index": 9, "text": "And also of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think President Trump has a very strong sense of America's ability to use its military and economic power to push countries around."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5581578", "date": "2025-10-22", "guest": "Zanny Minton Beddoes", "title": "Confused by the U.S. economy? You're not alone", "question_index": 10, "text": "...His own personal power.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And he's..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5581578", "date": "2025-10-22", "guest": "Zanny Minton Beddoes", "title": "Confused by the U.S. economy? You're not alone", "question_index": 11, "text": "My guest is Zanny Minton Beddoes, editor-in-chief of The Economist. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I think he's extremely good at that. He's extremely good at recognizing weakness in others and using the clout that he has as America's president to further, in - what in his view is, you know, A"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5581578", "date": "2025-10-22", "guest": "Zanny Minton Beddoes", "title": "Confused by the U.S. economy? You're not alone", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Zanny Minton Beddoes, editor-in-chief of The Economist. We're talking about the impact of Trump's tariffs, immigration crackdown and other policies and plans on everything from consumers to the global economy. We recorded our interview yesterday. Something that I'm really struggling to understand is one of the things Trump is proposing is a 100% tariffs on brand-name drugs - not generics, but brand-name drugs - that are manufactured outside of the United States. He has an exception for companies working to try to manufacture drugs in the U.S. So if you add 100% tariffs to brand-name drugs manufactured outside of the United States and, at the same time, you're allowing - 'cause this is what Republicans are trying to do - you're allowing Obamacare costs to skyrocket for individuals on Obamacare, that's a kind of bad recipe for a lot of people's health care.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I think he's extremely good at that. He's extremely good at recognizing weakness in others and using the clout that he has as America's president to further, in - what in his view is, you know, A"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5581578", "date": "2025-10-22", "guest": "Zanny Minton Beddoes", "title": "Confused by the U.S. economy? You're not alone", "question_index": 13, "text": "So if you have, like, over 90 countries with different tariffs for each country and then cutouts for certain goods that Trump does not want to impose tariffs on, it sounds to me - and I don't know anything about the administration of tariffs, but it sounds to me like an administrative nightmare. And I've been wondering - is Trump going to have to reestablish part of the, quote, \"administrative state\" that he's been trying to destroy just to administer the tariffs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it is. But I think - to be fair to the administration, I think President Trump has identified something that he sees as an unfairness, which is that global drug companies sell their drugs more ch"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5581578", "date": "2025-10-22", "guest": "Zanny Minton Beddoes", "title": "Confused by the U.S. economy? You're not alone", "question_index": 14, "text": "Very cheap. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You raise a very important point, which is - and this sounds abstract, but it's actually really important. For most of the world for the last 80 years, in the postwar era, we had a system of global ru"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5581578", "date": "2025-10-22", "guest": "Zanny Minton Beddoes", "title": "Confused by the U.S. economy? You're not alone", "question_index": 15, "text": "Now, it's not even clear if these tariffs are legal, because it's Congress' power to inflict tariffs. It's not the president's power. But the president is using a provision of a federal law that addresses trade issues. This is trade issues that present a threat to national security. And this part of the federal law doesn't even mention the word tariff. So the Supreme Court is scheduled to rule on the legality of these tariffs. And if the Supreme Court rules they're not legal, then what? Do we pay the countries back? I mean, where does that leave us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Very cheap. Yeah. I'm not passing judgment on whether they were a good idea or not. But they came in through this de minimis arrangement. And now lots of small importers - kind of mom-and-pop stores t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5581578", "date": "2025-10-22", "guest": "Zanny Minton Beddoes", "title": "Confused by the U.S. economy? You're not alone", "question_index": 16, "text": "Economic power of the president.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're right. The broad tariffs have been put into place under this emergency - so-called emergency..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5581578", "date": "2025-10-22", "guest": "Zanny Minton Beddoes", "title": "Confused by the U.S. economy? You're not alone", "question_index": 17, "text": "Do you think if there is any hint that they're going to strike it down, that they would do it on an emergency basis? - because if they strike...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Exactly. And that is being challenged, and it's going all the way to the Supreme Court. And I don't think it's at all clear which way the Supreme Court will rule. And we've developed, my colleag"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5581578", "date": "2025-10-22", "guest": "Zanny Minton Beddoes", "title": "Confused by the U.S. economy? You're not alone", "question_index": 18, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5581578", "date": "2025-10-22", "guest": "Zanny Minton Beddoes", "title": "Confused by the U.S. economy? You're not alone", "question_index": 19, "text": "Let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Zanny Minton Beddoes, editor-in-chief of The Economist. We recorded our interview yesterday. We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think this is such a central part of this administration's economic policy platform, it would be a big decision for the Supreme Court to rule against the president on that. And thus far, if you look"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5581578", "date": "2025-10-22", "guest": "Zanny Minton Beddoes", "title": "Confused by the U.S. economy? You're not alone", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Zanny Minton Beddoes, editor-in-chief of The Economist. We're talking about the impact of Trump's tariffs, immigration crackdown and other policies and plans, the impact on everything from consumers to the global economy. We recorded our interview yesterday. Let's talk about immigration. So I think you've said that we don't quite appreciate how much Trump's crackdown on immigration is affecting the American economy. Can you elaborate on that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think this is such a central part of this administration's economic policy platform, it would be a big decision for the Supreme Court to rule against the president on that. And thus far, if you look"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5581578", "date": "2025-10-22", "guest": "Zanny Minton Beddoes", "title": "Confused by the U.S. economy? You're not alone", "question_index": 21, "text": "Elon Musk...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, of course. We've spent a lot of time talking about tariffs, and rightly so, because tariffs have been a big part of the discussion over the last six months. But one of the striking things, and I "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5581578", "date": "2025-10-22", "guest": "Zanny Minton Beddoes", "title": "Confused by the U.S. economy? You're not alone", "question_index": 22, "text": "...For heaven's sake.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I know that I'm..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5581578", "date": "2025-10-22", "guest": "Zanny Minton Beddoes", "title": "Confused by the U.S. economy? You're not alone", "question_index": 23, "text": "Can I ask you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Four - in fact, four of the CEOs of the Magnificent Seven that we were talking about - four of them are foreign-born. And so if the U.S. genuinely becomes a place that is less hospitable to forei"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5581578", "date": "2025-10-22", "guest": "Zanny Minton Beddoes", "title": "Confused by the U.S. economy? You're not alone", "question_index": 24, "text": "...A question, though? What is the logic behind President Trump placing a $100,000 fee, you know, for visas on high-skilled workers coming to the U.S.?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so if you..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5581578", "date": "2025-10-22", "guest": "Zanny Minton Beddoes", "title": "Confused by the U.S. economy? You're not alone", "question_index": 25, "text": "What about, like, hospitals and doctors? I know from personal experience in - with, you know, family doctors and emergency room visits and, you know, all of that that so many doctors and nurses are foreign-born. And if we cut off that flow, if we make it more difficult for hospitals and other medical practices to have foreign medical workers come to the U.S., we're hurting the health care system. We're hurting people who need doctors and nurses. I mean, there already seems to be a shortage.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think if you asked a member of the administration, it would be these H-1B visas have, for too long, been a way for companies to get cheap skilled workers from abroad, whereas in fact they can and sh"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5581578", "date": "2025-10-22", "guest": "Zanny Minton Beddoes", "title": "Confused by the U.S. economy? You're not alone", "question_index": 26, "text": "Oh, and I...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think that's absolutely right. And I think that's - you know, that is true in the medical area. It's true in the high-tech area. It's true in lots of areas."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5581578", "date": "2025-10-22", "guest": "Zanny Minton Beddoes", "title": "Confused by the U.S. economy? You're not alone", "question_index": 27, "text": "I should also mention caregivers. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that's what's so..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5581578", "date": "2025-10-22", "guest": "Zanny Minton Beddoes", "title": "Confused by the U.S. economy? You're not alone", "question_index": 28, "text": "...Many caregivers are...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5581578", "date": "2025-10-22", "guest": "Zanny Minton Beddoes", "title": "Confused by the U.S. economy? You're not alone", "question_index": 29, "text": "...Foreign-born.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5581578", "date": "2025-10-22", "guest": "Zanny Minton Beddoes", "title": "Confused by the U.S. economy? You're not alone", "question_index": 30, "text": "OK, I've got to reintroduce you again. We have to take a break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Zanny Minton Beddoes, editor-in-chief of The Economist. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And the United States has always been - or at least for most of the past hundred years has been - a country that has been, you know, a magnet for migration. Now, what is certainly true is that under t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5581578", "date": "2025-10-22", "guest": "Zanny Minton Beddoes", "title": "Confused by the U.S. economy? You're not alone", "question_index": 31, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Zanny Minton Beddoes, editor-in-chief of The Economist. We're talking about the impact of Trump's tariffs, immigration crackdown and other policies and plans on everything from consumers to the global economy. We recorded our interview yesterday. Let's get back to AI. The frenzy around AI is driving up the stock market. But what impact do you think AI is going to have on the larger economy since so many jobs are already being replaced by AI?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And the United States has always been - or at least for most of the past hundred years has been - a country that has been, you know, a magnet for migration. Now, what is certainly true is that under t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5581578", "date": "2025-10-22", "guest": "Zanny Minton Beddoes", "title": "Confused by the U.S. economy? You're not alone", "question_index": 32, "text": "So there's a debate going on about whether the stock market gains are a bubble, whether the valuation of AI-related stocks are a bubble. If it is a bubble, and the bubble bursts and the stock market crashes, would it be different than previous crashes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, let's stand back. Artificial intelligence is, I think, going to prove to be the biggest transformational technology since the Industrial Revolution. I do think this is a sort of epochal change o"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5581578", "date": "2025-10-22", "guest": "Zanny Minton Beddoes", "title": "Confused by the U.S. economy? You're not alone", "question_index": 33, "text": "Is Trump still interested in investing money from the Federal Reserve in crypto? Is that still a thing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The word bubble is one that is bounded around a lot and certainly I use, too, but we have to be a little careful what we mean by bubble. Clearly, these are very richly priced stocks, and it's pretty c"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5581578", "date": "2025-10-22", "guest": "Zanny Minton Beddoes", "title": "Confused by the U.S. economy? You're not alone", "question_index": 34, "text": "But also, just one thing in terms of encouraging business, not the alternative energy world. Those companies are not being encouraged by the Trump administration.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't actually know, but what is very clear - that this is an administration that is extremely pro crypto. I'm not as convinced as those in the Trump administration are that this is a sensible direc"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5581578", "date": "2025-10-22", "guest": "Zanny Minton Beddoes", "title": "Confused by the U.S. economy? You're not alone", "question_index": 35, "text": "My guest is Zanny Minton Beddoes, editor-in-chief of The Economist. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. You're absolutely right. If you stand back a bit, what is really striking is how willing this administration is to pick winners and to say, you know, this is a good company, it's a bad com"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5581578", "date": "2025-10-22", "guest": "Zanny Minton Beddoes", "title": "Confused by the U.S. economy? You're not alone", "question_index": 36, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Zanny Minton Beddoes, editor-in-chief of The Economist. We're talking about the impact of Trump's tariffs, immigration crackdown and other policies and plans on everything from consumers to the global economy. We recorded our interview yesterday. So after slashing so many federal positions and, you know, Trump is cutting back on spending, meanwhile, Trump wants to bail out Argentina to the tune of $20 billion. And that's only if the current president, Javier Milei, gets reelected in the October 26 election, 'cause Milei is an ally of Trump's. Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent has advocating (ph) for raising the American contribution of $20 billion to as high as $40 billion. What does this bailout mean? I'm unclear about whether we'd be giving them the billions, loaning them the billions or investing the billions in the Argentine peso.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. You're absolutely right. If you stand back a bit, what is really striking is how willing this administration is to pick winners and to say, you know, this is a good company, it's a bad com"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5581578", "date": "2025-10-22", "guest": "Zanny Minton Beddoes", "title": "Confused by the U.S. economy? You're not alone", "question_index": 37, "text": "Looking at the larger picture in the U.S. right now and in the economy, not knowing what the future brings, what do you see as the best- and worst-case scenarios when you try to look ahead? Is that a manner of a question to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The U.S. is essentially trying to provide enough financial muscle to shore up confidence in Argentina and in President Milei. I actually think that what President Milei has done in Argentina is pretty"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5581578", "date": "2025-10-22", "guest": "Zanny Minton Beddoes", "title": "Confused by the U.S. economy? You're not alone", "question_index": 38, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK, let me..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5581578", "date": "2025-10-22", "guest": "Zanny Minton Beddoes", "title": "Confused by the U.S. economy? You're not alone", "question_index": 39, "text": "Well, it sounds like you didn't have to work that hard", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let me give you the best case. The best case is that the damage from the tariffs is limited, modest corrosion of U.S. competitiveness, nothing too terrible, that the damage from immigration is such th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5581578", "date": "2025-10-22", "guest": "Zanny Minton Beddoes", "title": "Confused by the U.S. economy? You're not alone", "question_index": 40, "text": "to paint that grim...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let me give you the best case. The best case is that the damage from the tariffs is limited, modest corrosion of U.S. competitiveness, nothing too terrible, that the damage from immigration is such th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5581578", "date": "2025-10-22", "guest": "Zanny Minton Beddoes", "title": "Confused by the U.S. economy? You're not alone", "question_index": 41, "text": "...Picture.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's fine."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5581578", "date": "2025-10-22", "guest": "Zanny Minton Beddoes", "title": "Confused by the U.S. economy? You're not alone", "question_index": 42, "text": "Well, Zanny Minton Beddoes, thank you so much for returning to our show. I really appreciate it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I really want to - I don't think that has to happen. I'm not only, by nature, an optimist, I do think the resilience of the U.S. economy is remarkable. I also think that, in the end, this administrati"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5581578", "date": "2025-10-22", "guest": "Zanny Minton Beddoes", "title": "Confused by the U.S. economy? You're not alone", "question_index": 43, "text": "Zanny Minton Beddoes is the editor-in-chief of The Economist. She's also the host of \"The Insider,\" The Economist's new streaming show. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, filmmaker Guillermo del Toro joins us to talk about his new reimagining of \"Frankenstein.\" It gets to themes he's been obsessed with - a man who wants to be a god, men who behave like monsters, father-son relationships, religion, empathy and cruelty. His other films include \"Pan's Labyrinth\" and \"The Shape Of Water.\" I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're very welcome. It was great to chat with you as always."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5581578", "date": "2025-10-22", "guest": "Zanny Minton Beddoes", "title": "Confused by the U.S. economy? You're not alone", "question_index": 44, "text": "To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at @nprfreshair. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Briger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our cohost is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You're very welcome. It was great to chat with you as always."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5590249", "date": "2025-10-30", "guest": "Russell Vought", "title": "Who's the man behind President Trump's dismantling of the federal government?", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Russell Vought has been called the shadow president, including by my guest, journalist Andy Kroll. Vought is the director of the Office of Management and Budget - not the sexiest-sounding title, but he's the architect behind the Trump administration's dismantling of federal agencies, slashing foreign aid, pausing or canceling over $400 billion for infrastructure and clean energy projects in blue states, ending the Justice Department's independence from the president, stuffing so many budget cuts in the so-called One Big Beautiful Bill, and expanding the power of the president. He was also one of the people behind Project 2025, which was intended to be a blueprint for a second Trump term, and that's what it's become. Vought describes himself as a radical constitutionalist. Andy Kroll has been investigating how Vought has been using his power and what his goals are. Kroll covers the Justice Department and judiciary system for ProPublica, where he's written extensively about Vought. Kroll has an article in The New Yorker in collaboration with ProPublica titled \"Donald Trump's Deep-State Wrecking Ball.\" Kroll is also the journalist who first got access to and published the video of Vought saying this back in 2023.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5590249", "date": "2025-10-30", "guest": "Russell Vought", "title": "Who's the man behind President Trump's dismantling of the federal government?", "question_index": 1, "text": "OK, and there's one more Russell Vought clip I want to play for you that will give you more of a sense of Vought's goals and strategy. When he was on The Tucker Carlson Show in November 18, 2024, just 13 days after Trump was reelected, Carlson asked Vought about his priorities. This was on top of Vought's list.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because they are increasingly viewed as the villains. We want their funding to be shut down so that the EPA can't do all of the rules against our energy industry because they have no bandwidth financi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5590249", "date": "2025-10-30", "guest": "Russell Vought", "title": "Who's the man behind President Trump's dismantling of the federal government?", "question_index": 2, "text": "Well, Andy Kroll, welcome to FRESH AIR. We have a lot to talk about", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They believe that they have the power for all of the prosecutions and that the president doesn't get a say in any of that. And that - we have to go at that as hard as we possibly can."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5590249", "date": "2025-10-30", "guest": "Russell Vought", "title": "Who's the man behind President Trump's dismantling of the federal government?", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They believe that they have the power for all of the prosecutions and that the president doesn't get a say in any of that. And that - we have to go at that as hard as we possibly can."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5590249", "date": "2025-10-30", "guest": "Russell Vought", "title": "Who's the man behind President Trump's dismantling of the federal government?", "question_index": 4, "text": "Pleasure to have you. So let's get into what we just heard Russell Vought say. I'll start with federal agencies. Why are they such a big target for Vought?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, we sure do. It's a real pleasure to be here."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5590249", "date": "2025-10-30", "guest": "Russell Vought", "title": "Who's the man behind President Trump's dismantling of the federal government?", "question_index": 5, "text": "OK. So he says that the agencies aren't mentioned in the Constitution and therefore, they don't necessarily even have a right to exist, if I'm hearing him correctly. What is mentioned in the Constitution is the separation of powers between the president, the judiciary and Congress. He thinks, according to the clip we just heard, that the president should be involved directly with the judiciary. Does that violate the Constitution?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Russ Vought believes that federal agencies are one of the chief reasons that, in his view, the American government has ceased to serve the American people and that it has become this rogue bureaucracy"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5590249", "date": "2025-10-30", "guest": "Russell Vought", "title": "Who's the man behind President Trump's dismantling of the federal government?", "question_index": 6, "text": "Why is Congress allowing the president to limit the power of Congress? Why are Republican congressman standing for that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It certainly would be a major break from how our three-part system of government has operated for quite a long time, and it would certainly be a break in terms of what the president is now doing as it"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5590249", "date": "2025-10-30", "guest": "Russell Vought", "title": "Who's the man behind President Trump's dismantling of the federal government?", "question_index": 7, "text": "Russell Vought also wants the president to be able to fire federal workers who don't adhere to the president's agenda. And part of his rationale is that federal workers weren't elected, so the president should be able to fire them, like any boss can fire an employee. Vought wasn't elected either. So where does his power come from? Is he that powerful as the director of the Office of Management and Budget?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a very good question. I think it speaks to the degree to which the Republican Party today is so controlled by one man, the president of the United States right now, Donald Trump. If you talk to m"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5590249", "date": "2025-10-30", "guest": "Russell Vought", "title": "Who's the man behind President Trump's dismantling of the federal government?", "question_index": 8, "text": "OK. I want to talk with you a lot more about what Vought is doing to American government. But first, we have to take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Andy Kroll, an investigative reporter for ProPublica covering the Justice Department and the judiciary. He has an article in The New Yorker in collaboration with ProPublica about Russell Vought titled \"Donald Trump's Deep-State Wrecking Ball.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The power comes from a few places. Some of it is the nature of the Office of Management and Budget, or OMB, and I can get into that a little bit more. Some of it, though, is really an extension of thi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5590249", "date": "2025-10-30", "guest": "Russell Vought", "title": "Who's the man behind President Trump's dismantling of the federal government?", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Andy Kroll, an investigative journalist covering the Justice Department and the judiciary at ProPublica. He's been investigating Russell Vought, the person behind Trump's dismantling of federal agencies and expanding the power of the presidency. Vought is the director of the Office of Management and Budget and an architect of Project 2025. He's the subject of Kroll's article in The New Yorker, written in collaboration with ProPublica, titled \"Donald Trump's Deep-State Wrecking Ball.\" Does Vought, as the director of the Office of Management and Budget, get to veto, like, budgets that come across his desk? Does he have any kind of final say over how money is dispensed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The power comes from a few places. Some of it is the nature of the Office of Management and Budget, or OMB, and I can get into that a little bit more. Some of it, though, is really an extension of thi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5590249", "date": "2025-10-30", "guest": "Russell Vought", "title": "Who's the man behind President Trump's dismantling of the federal government?", "question_index": 10, "text": "And after the money is frozen, does it expire at the end of Congress' term?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not in a permanent, official kind of way. The director of the Office of Management and Budget can't put a veto on, say, a multibillion-dollar program to support clean energy or to build the Second Ave"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5590249", "date": "2025-10-30", "guest": "Russell Vought", "title": "Who's the man behind President Trump's dismantling of the federal government?", "question_index": 11, "text": "So in full disclosure, I should mention that Congress had voted funding for the Corporation for Public Broadcasting, which distributes federal funding to public radio and public TV. But then Vought had asked Congress to rescind that money, to claw it back, and they did. So is that kind of thing unprecedented? And also, there's something that's being called, not a pocket veto, but pocket rescission. Can you explain that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It depends on what kind of money we're talking about. Sometimes the money is over a multiyear period. Sometimes the money is called no-year funding, which means it doesn't have an expiration date. But"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5590249", "date": "2025-10-30", "guest": "Russell Vought", "title": "Who's the man behind President Trump's dismantling of the federal government?", "question_index": 12, "text": "These are powerful tools.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And we're getting into the budgetary weeds here. But these are really critical."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5590249", "date": "2025-10-30", "guest": "Russell Vought", "title": "Who's the man behind President Trump's dismantling of the federal government?", "question_index": 13, "text": "My guest is Andy Kroll, an investigative reporter for ProPublica covering the Justice Department and the judiciary. He has an article in The New Yorker in collaboration with ProPublica about Russell Vought titled \"Donald Trump's Deep-State Wrecking Ball.\" We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's right. And they are very much the tools that Vought has been using to accomplish the very goal he talked about in that Tucker Carlson clip that you played earlier. In June, the White Hous"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5590249", "date": "2025-10-30", "guest": "Russell Vought", "title": "Who's the man behind President Trump's dismantling of the federal government?", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Andy Kroll, an investigative journalist covering the Justice Department and judiciary at ProPublica. He's been investigating Russell Vought, the person behind Trump's dismantling of federal agencies and expanding the power of the presidency. Vought is the director of the Office of Management and Budget and an architect of Project 2025. He's the subject of Kroll's article in The New Yorker in collaboration with ProPublica titled \"Donald Trump's Deep-State Wrecking Ball.\" It seems that one of the things that Russell Vought is doing is creating chaos - freezing funds with agencies not knowing, like, if those are going to be unfrozen or if they'll never get that funding back, creating chaos, in many ways, in agencies, creating some chaos in Congress. Because Trump has been telling Republicans in Congress what to do, and sometimes that's contradicting what they've already voted to do. Is chaos a goal of Russell Vought's?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's right. And they are very much the tools that Vought has been using to accomplish the very goal he talked about in that Tucker Carlson clip that you played earlier. In June, the White Hous"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5590249", "date": "2025-10-30", "guest": "Russell Vought", "title": "Who's the man behind President Trump's dismantling of the federal government?", "question_index": 15, "text": "I wonder if that's intentional. Like, if you want to destroy federal agencies and the so-called deep state, one way to do it is to discourage people from working in federal government, to make it seem like you're not going to have a reliable job. We might take it away from you at any point. If the president thinks you're disloyal and you're not following his agenda, he has the right to fire you. We can defund agencies. We can close the doors of agencies. So, like, you're asking for instability. You might be an idealist, but, you know, this might not be good for you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think you can take in the full sweep of what this administration has done in less than a year and not come away with thinking that chaos is a goal and certainly an outcome that serves Vought a"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5590249", "date": "2025-10-30", "guest": "Russell Vought", "title": "Who's the man behind President Trump's dismantling of the federal government?", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, we need to take another break, so I'm going to reintroduce you. My guest is Andy Kroll, an investigative reporter for ProPublica covering the Justice Department and the judiciary. He has an article in The New Yorker in collaboration with ProPublica about Russell Vought titled \"Donald Trump's Deep-State Wrecking Ball.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have to think that that is the intended outcome. And I think this comes back to the line of Vought's that set me down this path, this yearlong path of reporting, which were these comments about want"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5590249", "date": "2025-10-30", "guest": "Russell Vought", "title": "Who's the man behind President Trump's dismantling of the federal government?", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Andy Kroll, an investigative journalist covering the Justice Department and judiciary at ProPublica. He's been investigating Russell Vought, the person behind Trump's dismantling of federal agencies and expanding the power of the presidency. Vought is the director of the Office of Management and Budget and an architect of Project 2025. He's the subject of Kroll's article in The New Yorker in collaboration with ProPublica titled \"Donald Trump's Deep-State Wrecking Ball.\" As part of your investigation into Russell Vought, you got access to court records. And you did interviews with people close to Vought. And you learned that DOGE was guided more than was previously known by Russell Vought. What did you learn about his role that we didn't know before?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have to think that that is the intended outcome. And I think this comes back to the line of Vought's that set me down this path, this yearlong path of reporting, which were these comments about want"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5590249", "date": "2025-10-30", "guest": "Russell Vought", "title": "Who's the man behind President Trump's dismantling of the federal government?", "question_index": 18, "text": "Was Russell Vought the person behind DOGE? Was it his idea to start that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the way to understand Vought and DOGE is this. Vought is a planner. He's a thinker. He's a student of not just history, but how the federal government works and where the levers are that he ca"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5590249", "date": "2025-10-30", "guest": "Russell Vought", "title": "Who's the man behind President Trump's dismantling of the federal government?", "question_index": 19, "text": "Yeah, they're opposite in terms of approaches. You know, Musk had the chainsaw, and Russell Vought is more of a technocrat. Like, he knows all the ins and outs of congressional rules. He drafts executive orders. He works to break the rules by knowing the rules. But, you know, one of the outcomes of DOGE is a lot of lawsuits. Can you talk more about that goal of creating lawsuits to see how far you can push things and still, you know, maybe violate law or push law and still be able to get away with it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "From all the reporting I've done, people I've talked to who are close to DOGE, that was very much an Elon Musk idea, something that Musk pitched to the president and the president embraced. In some wa"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5590249", "date": "2025-10-30", "guest": "Russell Vought", "title": "Who's the man behind President Trump's dismantling of the federal government?", "question_index": 20, "text": "And in terms of the shutdown that we're experiencing now, one of Vought's plans when he was drafting his plans for a second Trump term was to use shutdowns as a way to accomplish his political goals. So you gave us one example. Are there other political goals he wants to accomplish through shutdowns?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We're seeing this play out right now as we approach a month of a federal government shutdown here in Washington. Vought and OMB sent out this memo a few days before the shutdown telling agencies to pu"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5590249", "date": "2025-10-30", "guest": "Russell Vought", "title": "Who's the man behind President Trump's dismantling of the federal government?", "question_index": 21, "text": "Russell Vought talks about the Constitution and democracy. But he supported Trump's false claim that Trump won the 2020 election. What does that say about Vought, do you think?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Vought sees shutdowns as these rare opportunities, though they're increasingly less rare lately, to achieve big policy outcomes that you can't get through the normal course of Congress or the normal c"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5590249", "date": "2025-10-30", "guest": "Russell Vought", "title": "Who's the man behind President Trump's dismantling of the federal government?", "question_index": 22, "text": "You learned through previously unreported recordings of briefings by the think tank that he started during the Biden presidency, Citizens for Renewing America, that Vought had pressured members of the Freedom Caucus to ban critical race theory in schools. Where does that figure into his larger, like, political plan to expand the executive office?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it says that his loyalty to President Trump is so central to how he believes he is going to enact this larger vision for radically changing the federal government here in the United States. If"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5590249", "date": "2025-10-30", "guest": "Russell Vought", "title": "Who's the man behind President Trump's dismantling of the federal government?", "question_index": 23, "text": "We have to take another break here, so let me reintroduce you. My guest is Andy Kroll, an investigative reporter for ProPublica covering the Justice Department and the judiciary. He has an article in The New Yorker in collaboration with ProPublica about Russell Vought titled \"Donald Trump's Deep-State Wrecking Ball.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Vought has spent nearly 30 years working in Washington and has toiled away as a staffer on Capitol Hill, as an activist for the Heritage Action group and then, of course, in the Trump administration t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5590249", "date": "2025-10-30", "guest": "Russell Vought", "title": "Who's the man behind President Trump's dismantling of the federal government?", "question_index": 24, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Andy Kroll, an investigative journalist covering the Justice Department and the judiciary at ProPublica. He's been investigating Russell Vought, the person behind Trump's dismantling of federal agencies and expanding the power of the presidency. Vought is the director of the Office of Management and Budget and an architect of Project 2025. He's the subject of Kroll's article in The New Yorker in collaboration with ProPublica titled \"Donald Trump's Deep-State Wrecking Ball.\" Russell Vought describes himself as a Christian nationalist. And he says, of course I describe myself that way. I'm a Christian, and I'm a nationalist. But when you say Christian nationalist, the implication is - or the definition is usually that you want to define America as a Christian nation. So to what extent does Russell Vought want to define America as a Christian nation? Like, what is - does he have a vision of what a Christian nation would be?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Vought has spent nearly 30 years working in Washington and has toiled away as a staffer on Capitol Hill, as an activist for the Heritage Action group and then, of course, in the Trump administration t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5590249", "date": "2025-10-30", "guest": "Russell Vought", "title": "Who's the man behind President Trump's dismantling of the federal government?", "question_index": 25, "text": "So Vought calls himself a radical constitutionalist. What does he mean by that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's talked about this in private settings - what that actually means that we are a Christian nation 'cause he very much believes that. He has said that repeatedly. He talks about it in a couple of wa"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5590249", "date": "2025-10-30", "guest": "Russell Vought", "title": "Who's the man behind President Trump's dismantling of the federal government?", "question_index": 26, "text": "What do you think are the permanent or at least the long-term changes that Vought will leave behind?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He means that the president has dramatically more powers than presidents have traditionally used, that the executive branch has far greater authority to exert the president's will and to freeze or blo"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5590249", "date": "2025-10-30", "guest": "Russell Vought", "title": "Who's the man behind President Trump's dismantling of the federal government?", "question_index": 27, "text": "Andy Kroll, thank you so much for your research, and thank you for being on our show. I appreciate it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The feeling that working for the federal government, that public service is not a safe and stable way to create a career, to be part of this larger American project, I think is a really major conseque"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5590249", "date": "2025-10-30", "guest": "Russell Vought", "title": "Who's the man behind President Trump's dismantling of the federal government?", "question_index": 28, "text": "Andy Kroll covers the Justice Department and the Judiciary for ProPublica. His article, \"Donald Trump's Deep-State Wrecking Ball\" is published in The New Yorker in collaboration with ProPublica. Our interview was recorded yesterday. If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, like this week's interviews with film directors Judd Apatow, Cameron Crowe and Nia DaCosta, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. And to find out what's happening behind the scenes of our show and get our producers' recommendations for what to watch, read and listen to, subscribe to our free newsletter at whyy.org/freshair.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a real pleasure. Thank you."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5590249", "date": "2025-10-30", "guest": "Russell Vought", "title": "Who's the man behind President Trump's dismantling of the federal government?", "question_index": 29, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Briger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Susan Nyakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a real pleasure. Thank you."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 0, "text": "Well, this is such a classic scene. I mean, you, as Dr. Frankenstein, are presenting in a theater your creation, you know, the Frankenstein...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was writing every day, and then Mel would come to the house and read what I'd written. And then he'd say, yeah, yeah, yeah, OK. Yeah, OK. But we need a villain, or we need - whatever it was. And we'"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 1, "text": "...Monster, played by Peter Boyle. And you're in - both in top hat and tails, and you introduce him. Then you sing a duet of \"Puttin' On The Ritz\" and, you know, do a little soft-shoe, and it's really such a wonderful scene. So how did you come up with a way to - with an excuse to do it, you know, with the plot point to get in the production number?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 2, "text": "Well, I think we have no choice here but to listen", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because we had to convince the scientific members of Transylvania that with the procedure I was using on the creature, he could be taught to be a civilized human being, what I called a man-about-town."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 3, "text": "to you and Peter Boyle doing \"Puttin' On The Ritz\" from the soundtrack of \"Young Frankenstein.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because we had to convince the scientific members of Transylvania that with the procedure I was using on the creature, he could be taught to be a civilized human being, what I called a man-about-town."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 4, "text": "Gene Wilder, you came up with the premise for \"Young Frankenstein.\" You officially share credits with - Mel Brooks shares credit with you for the screenplay and the screen story. What gave you the idea of writing \"Young Frankenstein\"? Did you love the \"Frankenstein\" movie?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As the Monster, singing) Putting on the Ritz."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, at the time, I didn't know why. But I know now that when I was a little boy, I was scared to death of the \"Frankenstein\" film - films, actually, 'cause there were four of them in particular that"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 6, "text": "There's quite a few really classic jokes in \"Young Frankenstein.\" One of them - and this seems like it's probably the oldest joke in the world, and I'm not sure...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I said, well, as it happens, I do have something. Well, send it to me right now. I said, no, I want to work on it a little bit. And that night I wrote two more pages - the Transylvania station sce"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 7, "text": "I think you know the one, the walk this way joke.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, dear..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Why don't you describe how it happens in the movie? And tell me if it's something that you and Brooks came up with or whether this joke has a long previous life 'cause it seems like - I don't actually - I don't know I ever heard it before the movie, but it seems like it should have been around forever, do you know what I mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Who's playing the doctor's assistant...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had never heard of it before. And while we were filming outdoors on location, Mel says to Marty Feldman, Marty..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Your assistant, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, Igor."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Or Igor - he says, bend over and say to Gene, walk this way, and then crouch down and walk away. And I said, Mel, what does that mean? He says I'll tell you later. I'll tell you later. Just do it for "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 12, "text": "And another - another old, classic one, when you get to the castle...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I said, where did that come from? He says it's an old vaudeville routine. It's years old. But I had never heard of it before, but it worked."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 13, "text": "What?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 14, "text": "there's these large...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Large, like, brass-door knockers...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, door..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 16, "text": "...With knobs on them. And as as you're approaching the door, you lift...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "With knobs."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Yeah, that's right. You lift Teri Garr out of the wagon that you've...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Teri Garr."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 18, "text": "...Arrived in. And your head is kind of buried in her chest as...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 19, "text": "...Igor knocks on the door. And you say...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 20, "text": "No, you tell it. You tell it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Now, how'd you guys come up with that one? It also sounds like this is a classic, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I say - well, he knocks on the door. And just when Teri's breast is brushed up against my face, I look and see the knockers. And I say, what knockers. And she says (imitating foreign accent) thank you"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Now, I'm thinking you and Mel Brooks, you're both Jewish. But you're from very different parts of the United States and probably had different experiences growing up 'cause he's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Inga) Oh, thank you, Doctor."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 23, "text": "...Very East Coast, very New York, very Borscht Belt, and you grew - was it Milwaukee?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Yeah. So, I mean, didn't have the Borscht Belt.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Milwaukee, Wisconsin."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Probably didn't know vaudeville as well as he did.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 26, "text": "So what were some of the points of commonality and difference between the two of you and your sense of theater and show biz?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Don't say as well, I didn't know it at all. I'd read about a few things, but that's all."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 27, "text": "Well, let me ask you about another movie you were in, and that is \"Young Frankenstein\" - or Frankenshteen (ph).", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry Gross spoke with Teri Garr in 2005."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 28, "text": "Yes, directed by Mel Brooks. How did you get to work with him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Fronkenshtein (ph), yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 29, "text": "You were working on \"The Sonny & Cher Show\" at the time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there was rumors going around town that there was a big movie being cast, and there was lots of girls going up for this audition, and I got my agent to get me in on it. You know, 500 girls. When"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 30, "text": "Did you learn things about comic timing working with Mel Brooks on \"Young Frankenstein?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Impersonating German accent) Yes, I also working on \"The Sonny & Cher Show\" at the time, and there was Renate with the wigs."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 31, "text": "What did he call you? A shiksa goddess?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't think you can learn comic timing. I think I must have innately grown up with, you know, my mother and father from Vaudeville and stuff and lots of jokes around the house. But I had been "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 32, "text": "Not kosher.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Shiksa goddess. My long-waisted shiksa goddess. No, and then he called Peter Boyle and I - come here, treif. We were both treif. I don't know what it means, exactly. And then at one point..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 33, "text": "Can we talk about your parents a little bit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I said, Well, Mel, you're so wonderful. I wish I was Jewish. You're Jewish. You are Jewish by injection. I don't know what he meant, but OK."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 34, "text": "Your mother, as you mentioned, was a Rockette She was - you say she had wonderful legs. She did - what? - hosiery ads, too?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Please."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 35, "text": "She showed off her legs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She did, yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 36, "text": "And then she also was, like, a wardrobe person for several TV shows?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, she called herself Legs Lind (ph)."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 37, "text": "Why didn't you want anyone to know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think a lot of dancers become - go into wardrobe afterwards. I don't know why that happens, but it's true. And she became a costumer in LA. And my father died when I was 11, and he was in Vaud"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 38, "text": "Was it for her sake or your sake?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do not know to this day. Maybe..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 39, "text": "How did you get the part of the monster?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm TV critic David Bianculli. On today's Halloween show, we're saluting \"Young Frankenstein,\" the Mel Brooks, Gene Wilder monster movie comedy that is celebrating its golden annive"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 40, "text": "So did you go back and watch the original, study Boris Karloff?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Gee, I forget how I got it. I knew Gene Wilder and Marty Feldman, and I knew Mel. And there was a conversation. And they wanted to do, you know, a spoof on \"Frankenstein.\" And it was decided, you know"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 41, "text": "Did you remember the monster's grunts, which, of course, you had to do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't have to because I had seen the original when I was about 12 years old, in the era before television where there was a movie in downtown Philadelphia that used to show old movies. And a friend"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 42, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Grunting)."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 43, "text": "The makeup is actually very funny for the film because you could see where the makeup is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, of course. Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 44, "text": "One of the highlights, I think, of \"Young Frankenstein\" is when Gene Wilder, who plays Dr. Frankenstein, the scientist, is showing off you, his monster, his creation...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, \"Young Frankenstein\" really sort of spoofed the early \"Frankenstein\" movies, which were actually the first among the first sound movies ever made. They were made in 1931. And the light"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 45, "text": "...To a big audience of scientists.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 46, "text": "And then as he's showing you off, you do a duet with him of \"Puttin' On The Ritz.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 47, "text": "In full top hat, white tie and tails.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 48, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, and shoes that are elevated, have soles that are 8 inches thick."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 49, "text": "You've made - what? - two or three movies with Mel Brooks. The first was \"Young Frankenstein,\" in which you played Frau Blucher.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry Gross spoke with Cloris Leachman in 2009."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 50, "text": "And I want to play a scene from this. So just to set it up, Gene Wilder plays Dr. Frederick Frankenstein, who is the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 51, "text": "Frankenstein.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Frankenstein."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 52, "text": "Frankenstein.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Frankenstein."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 53, "text": "And he's the grandson of the famous mad scientist who created the monster. And then...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Igor."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 54, "text": "Then he learns he's inherited the Frankenstein estate, so he goes to the mansion in Transylvania. And your character, Frau Blucher, is one of the servants there. And she was in love with the mad scientist. And in this scene, Gene Wilder, the young Dr. Frankenstein, goes to the lab...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was my boyfriend."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 55, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Frankenstein."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 56, "text": "With his two assistants, where he finds you releasing the monster from his restraints. Here's the scene.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Frankenstein."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 57, "text": "That's my guest.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Frau Blucher) Yes, yes, say it. He was my boyfriend."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 58, "text": "That's my guest Cloris Leachman with Gene Wilder.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 59, "text": "Oh, Peter Boyle, who plays the monster. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, God. Can you believe it's the same one who played on Raymond, \"I Love Raymond\"?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 60, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Isn't it remarkable..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 61, "text": "Oh, yeah. He was a great actor, he was a great actor.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...To be the same person who's doing those very divergent roles?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 62, "text": "Well, how did you figure out how to play Frau Blucher?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 63, "text": "Blucher, Blucher.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Blucher."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 64, "text": "Was she from Germany?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't know. I had a wonderful hairdo by Mary, the head of the hair department at 20th, and a wonderful costume they made. It fit me perfectly, and it was wonderfully designed. And that's all I knew"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 65, "text": "The running gag in Young Frankenstein is whenever anybody says Frau Blucher, the horses whinny.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "to try to do it right. That's why it's so slow. Otherwise, I'd say, I am Frau Blucher. But I said, I am Frau Blucher."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 66, "text": "So it's like they're threatening the horses with the glue factory.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Blucher meant glue. I'm not sure that's true but it sure is funny."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5591169", "date": "2025-10-31", "guest": "Marty Feldman", "title": "A 'Fresh Air' Halloween treat: Revisiting 'Young Frankenstein'", "question_index": 67, "text": "So what did you learn about comedy working with Mel Brooks?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5600848", "date": "2025-11-07", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the 50th anniversary of Patti Smith's landmark album, 'Horses'", "question_index": 0, "text": "He took the photograph, perhaps the most famous photograph of you that was on the cover of your album, \"Horses,\" I think, in 1975, in which you're wearing a kind of oversized white shirt and an undone tie with, like, a suit jacket slung over your shoulder. Tell us how that photograph came about.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ken Tucker reviewed the new 50th anniversary edition of \"Horses.\" It was released last month by Legacy Recordings. After a break, we'll listen to a portion of Terry's 1996 interview with Patti Smith. "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5600848", "date": "2025-11-07", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the 50th anniversary of Patti Smith's landmark album, 'Horses'", "question_index": 1, "text": "\"The Capitol Years\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we wanted to take the cover, and Robert knew where he wanted to take it. It was up in Sam Wagstaff's apartment in New York City, which was a very white room. And there was a triangle of light th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5600848", "date": "2025-11-07", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the 50th anniversary of Patti Smith's landmark album, 'Horses'", "question_index": 2, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we wanted to take the cover, and Robert knew where he wanted to take it. It was up in Sam Wagstaff's apartment in New York City, which was a very white room. And there was a triangle of light th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5600848", "date": "2025-11-07", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the 50th anniversary of Patti Smith's landmark album, 'Horses'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Yeah, it's the movie that \"All The Way\" comes from.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no. Actually, he did he did a movie. I think it was called - oh, man. I don't think it was \"Pal Joey.\" It was the Joe E. Lewis story. And Joe E. Lewis was a singer that got in trouble with the m"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5600848", "date": "2025-11-07", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the 50th anniversary of Patti Smith's landmark album, 'Horses'", "question_index": 4, "text": "\"The Joker Is Wild\" I think is what it's called, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's right. The last scene of it, Frank Sinatra is walking alone down a dark street with a lantern. There's a lantern-lit street. And he's sort of philosophically talking to himself in a pane "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5600848", "date": "2025-11-07", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the 50th anniversary of Patti Smith's landmark album, 'Horses'", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's it."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5600848", "date": "2025-11-07", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the 50th anniversary of Patti Smith's landmark album, 'Horses'", "question_index": 6, "text": "You met Robert Mapplethorpe in 1967 when you were 20. Do I have that right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's it, \"The Joker Is Wild.\" Appropriate title."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5600848", "date": "2025-11-07", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the 50th anniversary of Patti Smith's landmark album, 'Horses'", "question_index": 7, "text": "How did you meet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5600848", "date": "2025-11-07", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the 50th anniversary of Patti Smith's landmark album, 'Horses'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Now, was he already taking photographs when you met?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we met in Brooklyn. I was around Pratt, Pratt Institute of Art, where he went to school. I had a friend there, and my friend had moved, and I was looking for my friend. And I knocked on the door"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5600848", "date": "2025-11-07", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the 50th anniversary of Patti Smith's landmark album, 'Horses'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Did you help each other with your work?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, he didn't start taking photographs till late '69 when we were at the Chelsea Hotel. He really only started taking photographs - he was doing drawings, paintings and collages and some constructions"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5600848", "date": "2025-11-07", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the 50th anniversary of Patti Smith's landmark album, 'Horses'", "question_index": 10, "text": "What ways were you able to help him? And how did he help you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Always."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5600848", "date": "2025-11-07", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the 50th anniversary of Patti Smith's landmark album, 'Horses'", "question_index": 11, "text": "Was he the first person who completely believed in your work?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we helped each other in any way we could, whether it be financially or an encouraging word or constructive criticism, and just mutual belief in each other's work. That's something really that no"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5600848", "date": "2025-11-07", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the 50th anniversary of Patti Smith's landmark album, 'Horses'", "question_index": 12, "text": "You've said that Mapplethorpe helped you make the transition from psychotic to serious art student. What did you mean by that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd say so, yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5600848", "date": "2025-11-07", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the 50th anniversary of Patti Smith's landmark album, 'Horses'", "question_index": 13, "text": "Like what?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm never quite sure of what I meant. You know, when people ask me to explain what I said 20 years ago or something, it's - I don't - I couldn't exactly say what I meant, but I probably - when I"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5600848", "date": "2025-11-07", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the 50th anniversary of Patti Smith's landmark album, 'Horses'", "question_index": 14, "text": "No, I think he gave you the money to record your first record, the 45 that had \"Hey Joe\" on one side and \"Piss Factory\" on the other. Tell me the story of that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, whatever tensions people have when they're growing up, whether it be fear or sexual tensions or parental tension, youthful paranoia, I don't know. Name it."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5600848", "date": "2025-11-07", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the 50th anniversary of Patti Smith's landmark album, 'Horses'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Had he heard you sing? I mean, would you sing - were you singing in the house before you were singing in performance?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Oh, we may look the same, shoulder to shoulder, sweating 110 degrees. But I will never faint. I will never faint. They laugh, and they expect me to faint. But I will never faint. I refuse to"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5600848", "date": "2025-11-07", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the 50th anniversary of Patti Smith's landmark album, 'Horses'", "question_index": 16, "text": "You think you would have done it if he didn't nudge you in that direction?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, you know, I'd, you know, be making spaghetti or washing clothes and sing. I used to sing little songs, and, for some reason, he liked my singing. He used to think - I used to sing little blues s"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5600848", "date": "2025-11-07", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the 50th anniversary of Patti Smith's landmark album, 'Horses'", "question_index": 17, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he did push me towards that, but it was a series of people, actually. You know, Sam Shepard was really instrumental in getting me to sing in public. I had a few different friends that seemed to "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5600848", "date": "2025-11-07", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the 50th anniversary of Patti Smith's landmark album, 'Horses'", "question_index": 18, "text": "You say that until a friend suggested that you be in a rock 'n' roll band, it had never occurred to you. It was just, like, not part of your world.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm TV critic David Bianculli. We're commemorating the 50th anniversary of Patti Smith's debut album, \"Horses.\" She's considered the godmother of punk. With her first album, she cre"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5600848", "date": "2025-11-07", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the 50th anniversary of Patti Smith's landmark album, 'Horses'", "question_index": 19, "text": "So you found the guitarist Lenny Kaye. You read an article by him about a cappella groups, and you really liked it. And you found him. You sought him out. He was working at a bookstore in the village. If you had not found Lenny Kaye, do you think you wouldn't have been in a rock 'n' roll band? 'Cause he has been your guitarist kind of forever.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Why would it? You know, I'm not a musician. You know, I don't play any - I didn't play any instrument. I didn't have any specific talents. I mean, I came from the South Jersey/Philadelphia area, a"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5600848", "date": "2025-11-07", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the 50th anniversary of Patti Smith's landmark album, 'Horses'", "question_index": 20, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I can't say what would happen. It was really Sam Shepard who suggested - you know, I said to Sam when I - when Robert helped me through Gerard Malanga to get my first reading, I said, I got to d"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5600848", "date": "2025-11-07", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the 50th anniversary of Patti Smith's landmark album, 'Horses'", "question_index": 21, "text": "You were saying that you didn't have - you know, you didn't think of yourself as a singer, per se, that your friends had better voices than you did. But you created this new style, really, that was a combination of poetry and music. It wasn't about having, like, a perfect singer's voice. It was the style that you performed and the personality that you put into it, the kind of defiance that you had in some songs, the energy. Would you talk about what you felt you were doing early on that was different from what you'd seen other people do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I said, I want to do something special, and Sam said, well, you have these - and I said, well, I could sing a cappella songs. And he said, well, do you know anybody that plays guitar? And I said, "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5600848", "date": "2025-11-07", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the 50th anniversary of Patti Smith's landmark album, 'Horses'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Is there a track from \"Horses\" that particularly illustrates what you were describing as what your mission was?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think my perception of myself was really as a performer and a communicator. My first album, \"Horses\" - my mission and the collective band mission was really on one level to merge poetry and rock 'n'"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5600848", "date": "2025-11-07", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the 50th anniversary of Patti Smith's landmark album, 'Horses'", "question_index": 23, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Birdland.\""}
{"id": "nx-s1-5600848", "date": "2025-11-07", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the 50th anniversary of Patti Smith's landmark album, 'Horses'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Oh, let's hear it. This is \"Birdland\" from Patti Smith's first album, \"Horses.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think \"Birdland\" because - for various reasons. \"Birdland\" was an improvisation built on an improvisation. It very - it so much exemplifies the communication of my band, especially between Richard, "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5600848", "date": "2025-11-07", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the 50th anniversary of Patti Smith's landmark album, 'Horses'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Robert Mapplethorpe did the very iconic photograph for the cover of \"Horses.\" What impact do you think that photo had on how people perceived you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I am helium raven, and this movie is mine. So he cried out as he stretched the sky, pushing it all out like latex cartoon. Am I all alone in this generation? We'll just be dreaming of animat"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5600848", "date": "2025-11-07", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the 50th anniversary of Patti Smith's landmark album, 'Horses'", "question_index": 26, "text": "They didn't? That's such a great photo. Why didn't the record company like it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I - you know, I don't know. I know people really liked it. I know the record company didn't."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5600848", "date": "2025-11-07", "guest": "Patti Smith", "title": "'Fresh Air' marks the 50th anniversary of Patti Smith's landmark album, 'Horses'", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "'Cause my hair was messy, because, you know, it just - it was a little incomprehensible to them at the time. But I fought for it, and they did try to airbrush my hair, but I made sure that was fixed. "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5613347", "date": "2025-11-19", "guest": "Eric Swalwell", "title": "How Kash Patel is roiling the FBI and changing its mission", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Today, we're going to talk about FBI director Kash Patel with Marc Fisher, who profiles Patel on the current issue of The New Yorker. It's titled \"Kash Patel's Acts Of Service.\" It's subtitled, \"The F.B.I. Director Isn't Just Enforcing The President's Agenda At The Bureau - He's Seeking Retribution For Its Past Investigations Of Donald Trump.\" Fisher also writes about other controversies surrounding Patel, ranging from whether he's even qualified for the job to his conflicts of interest and how he's transforming the FBI's mission as he focuses on cracking down on undocumented immigrants. Journalist Marc Fisher was a longtime writer and editor at The Washington Post and co-author of the book \"Trump Revealed\" before becoming a New Yorker contributor. We recorded our interview yesterday morning before both the House and the Senate approved the release of the Epstein files. Start with an excerpt of what Patel had to say about the Epstein files when he testified before the House Judiciary Committee last September. Here he is being questioned by California Democrat Eric Swalwell.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5613347", "date": "2025-11-19", "guest": "Eric Swalwell", "title": "How Kash Patel is roiling the FBI and changing its mission", "question_index": 1, "text": "Mark Fisher, welcome to FRESH AIR. Your profile of Kash Patel was very informative and very interesting. What was your reaction when you first heard Swalwell questioning Kash Patel?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You have not answered it, and we will take your evasiveness as a consciousness of guilt."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5613347", "date": "2025-11-19", "guest": "Eric Swalwell", "title": "How Kash Patel is roiling the FBI and changing its mission", "question_index": 2, "text": "Have you ever heard an FBI director dodge questions in such a confrontational way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this came amid a whole bunch of such confrontations between Patel and both House and Senate members, and it was pretty wild. It was one of the classic ways in which Kash Patel, very much like Do"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5613347", "date": "2025-11-19", "guest": "Eric Swalwell", "title": "How Kash Patel is roiling the FBI and changing its mission", "question_index": 3, "text": "White men.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, we've never seen any FBI director like Kash Patel before. We've never seen someone who looks like Kash Patel. The previous FBI directors were all sort of clean-cut, conservatively dressed, very pr"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5613347", "date": "2025-11-19", "guest": "Eric Swalwell", "title": "How Kash Patel is roiling the FBI and changing its mission", "question_index": 4, "text": "So Benny Johnson, who's a far-right commentator and podcaster, was interviewing Kash Patel, and he asked him why the FBI was protecting the world's foremost predators by refusing to release the names on the list. And Patel said, simple, because of who's on that list. That sounds contradictory to what we just heard.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "White men, all of them. And Kash Patel is not any of those things. So we haven't seen this kind of approach before. We haven't seen this kind of antagonism before. And we haven't seen this lack of exp"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5613347", "date": "2025-11-19", "guest": "Eric Swalwell", "title": "How Kash Patel is roiling the FBI and changing its mission", "question_index": 5, "text": "So let's briefly run through some of the things that Kash Patel has been in the news for in the past couple of weeks. So this week, he was in the news for giving his girlfriend, country music singer Alexis Wilkins, a security detail. Tell us briefly why that's unusual.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. So that conversation with Benny Johnson took place a couple of years ago at a point when Kash Patel was on the outside and was agitating for the administration, then the Biden administration, t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5613347", "date": "2025-11-19", "guest": "Eric Swalwell", "title": "How Kash Patel is roiling the FBI and changing its mission", "question_index": 6, "text": "Patel, in response, says he's been paying back the government for these trips.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, none of the previous FBI directors had executive protection for their spouses, not for their wives and not for any girlfriends. And so it's very unusual for a director to request that kind of pr"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5613347", "date": "2025-11-19", "guest": "Eric Swalwell", "title": "How Kash Patel is roiling the FBI and changing its mission", "question_index": 7, "text": "Last week, Patel exempted his deputy FBI director, Dan Bongino, and two other new senior FBI officials who were just recently hired from passing polygraph tests. And keeping in mind that Dan Bongino has access to the top government secrets as deputy FBI director, how unusual is it for the deputy FBI director to be exempted from a polygraph test, which I think everybody in the FBI has to pass?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. He pays the government back, or so he says, at the commercial rate - the rate that you and I would pay to fly to Nashville, which is dramatically less than it costs the Bureau to stand up their G"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5613347", "date": "2025-11-19", "guest": "Eric Swalwell", "title": "How Kash Patel is roiling the FBI and changing its mission", "question_index": 8, "text": "And while we're on the subject of Dan Bongino, Patel had said that he'd appoint someone with FBI experience to be his deputy director. But Dan Bongino had no experience and no experience at the FBI at all, and of course, neither did Patel when Trump appointed him. Bongino had been a Secret Service agent, podcaster and Fox News commentator.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. The FBI has used polygraph tests for decades as just kind of a routine check on basic security questions that everybody has to pass to have access to the kind of secure information that the FBI "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5613347", "date": "2025-11-19", "guest": "Eric Swalwell", "title": "How Kash Patel is roiling the FBI and changing its mission", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Marc Fisher. He recently left The Washington Post, where he was a longtime writer and editor. He's also the author of the book \"Trump Revealed.\" And now he's a contributor to The New Yorker and has profiled Kash Patel in his new article, \"Kash Patel's Acts Of Service.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. That's exactly right. Bongino was somebody who was known to the president as somebody who did very well on Fox News, who appeared frequently on Fox News. And in the president's mind, the people r"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5613347", "date": "2025-11-19", "guest": "Eric Swalwell", "title": "How Kash Patel is roiling the FBI and changing its mission", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Marc Fisher, who profiles FBI Director Kash Patel in a new article in The New Yorker titled \"Kash Patel's Acts Of Service.\" And the subtitle is, the FBI director isn't just enforcing the president's agenda at the Bureau - he's seeking retribution for its past investigations of Donald Trump. So there are questions about how Patel got the position as head of the FBI and whether he had the necessary experience and credentials. What position had he held compared to what FBI directors typically have?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. That's exactly right. Bongino was somebody who was known to the president as somebody who did very well on Fox News, who appeared frequently on Fox News. And in the president's mind, the people r"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5613347", "date": "2025-11-19", "guest": "Eric Swalwell", "title": "How Kash Patel is roiling the FBI and changing its mission", "question_index": 11, "text": "The subtitle of your piece about Patel in The New Yorker is, \"The F.B.I. Director Isn't Just Enforcing The President's Agenda At The Bureau - He's Seeking Retribution For Its Past Investigations Of Donald Trump.\" So in his memoir, in Patel's memoir, he had his list of, quote, government gangsters. Eric Swalwell, who we heard questioning Patel, was on that list. Who has he been seeking retribution against, and what for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "FBI directors in the past have generally had long careers in criminal justice. There have been judges. There have been prosecutors, people who served as U.S. attorneys, running some of the largest U.S"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5613347", "date": "2025-11-19", "guest": "Eric Swalwell", "title": "How Kash Patel is roiling the FBI and changing its mission", "question_index": 12, "text": "So not only did Patel have former FBI Director Jim Comey indicted. He fired an agent for refusing to stage a perp walk for Comey.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Almost from the first day that Kash Patel took over the FBI, he has had as one of his top or perhaps his very top agenda item the calling-out and the investigation of people who the president sees as "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5613347", "date": "2025-11-19", "guest": "Eric Swalwell", "title": "How Kash Patel is roiling the FBI and changing its mission", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well, let's take another short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Marc Fisher. And he profiles FBI Director Kash Patel in a new article in The New Yorker that's titled \"Kash Patel's Acts Of Service,\" subtitled, the FBI director isn't just enforcing the president's agenda at the Bureau - he's seeking retribution for its past investigations of Donald Trump. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. That's right. So Patel has fired, by various accounts, dozens of agents for various infractions, most of which he doesn't detail in any sort of way. But the reporting that I did, as well as other"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5613347", "date": "2025-11-19", "guest": "Eric Swalwell", "title": "How Kash Patel is roiling the FBI and changing its mission", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Marc Fisher, who has a new profile of FBI Director Kash Patel in The New Yorker, where Fisher is a contributor. He recently left The Washington Post, where he was a longtime writer and editor. He's also the author of the book \"Trump Revealed,\" a biography of the president. You write in your profile of Kash Patel that he has promoted several conspiracy theories. I want to play a clip, and this is something that you quote in your profile. This is an excerpt of him as a guest on Joe Rogan's podcast on June 6 of this year. And this is Kash Patel describing a conspiracy theory relating to China and fentanyl.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. That's right. So Patel has fired, by various accounts, dozens of agents for various infractions, most of which he doesn't detail in any sort of way. But the reporting that I did, as well as other"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5613347", "date": "2025-11-19", "guest": "Eric Swalwell", "title": "How Kash Patel is roiling the FBI and changing its mission", "question_index": 15, "text": "So that was Kash Patel on Joe Rogan's podcast on June 6 of this year. I hadn't heard that one before. Had you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is, but we got - we're on it."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5613347", "date": "2025-11-19", "guest": "Eric Swalwell", "title": "How Kash Patel is roiling the FBI and changing its mission", "question_index": 16, "text": "Do you see any connection between this China conspiracy theory and Trump's threats to attack Venezuela and sending warships close to there? Do you see a connection?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. That was a new one on me. But he's got a bunch of them, and he's got a whole book of them in his book \"Government Gangsters.\" There came a moment in that very same interview between Rogan and Pate"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5613347", "date": "2025-11-19", "guest": "Eric Swalwell", "title": "How Kash Patel is roiling the FBI and changing its mission", "question_index": 17, "text": "What are some of the other conspiracy theories that Patel has promoted?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's a certain constancy to the way in which Trump and Patel think, the way in which they tell stories about their administration's actions. They both are given to dramatic tellings of somewhat fan"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5613347", "date": "2025-11-19", "guest": "Eric Swalwell", "title": "How Kash Patel is roiling the FBI and changing its mission", "question_index": 18, "text": "So since Trump was president on January 6 - I mean, he was about to leave the White House, but he was president then. If it was an inside job in the sense that the FBI sent people into militias to urge them to be more aggressive and even violent, why isn't that a Trump administration problem? The FBI director at this time was somebody appointed by President Trump.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Kash Patel, as he's admitted, is given to conspiratorial notions. He sees conspiracies in fact patterns. And obviously, you want any crime fighter to look for patterns in the facts that they are as"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5613347", "date": "2025-11-19", "guest": "Eric Swalwell", "title": "How Kash Patel is roiling the FBI and changing its mission", "question_index": 19, "text": "After Trump was indicted in 2023 for secretly storing classified documents at Mar-a-Lago, Patel said, when you're president and you leave, you can take whatever you want. And when you take it, whether it's classified or not, it's now not.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. This - it's absolutely right. The January 6 attack took place at the very tail end of the first Trump administration. So if, as Patel theorizes, the FBI in 2020 and the first days of 2021 was usi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5613347", "date": "2025-11-19", "guest": "Eric Swalwell", "title": "How Kash Patel is roiling the FBI and changing its mission", "question_index": 20, "text": "I think we need to take another break here, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Marc Fisher, who profiles Kash Patel in the current issue of The New Yorker. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I believe that the president said it first, but Kash Patel quickly adopted this idea that everything that was at Mar-a-Lago was there legally simply because the president had taken it there. This is c"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5613347", "date": "2025-11-19", "guest": "Eric Swalwell", "title": "How Kash Patel is roiling the FBI and changing its mission", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday morning with Marc Fisher, who profiles FBI Director Kash Patel in the current issue of The New Yorker, where Fisher is a contributor. The article is titled \"Kash Patel's Acts Of Service.\" Patel has fired a whole lot of FBI agents. I don't know the number. And he reassigned a lot of the remaining agents to work on catching people who are in the U.S. illegally. So what are some of the FBI missions that have been canceled or understaffed as a result of the firings and the reassignments, or units that have been completely shut down?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I believe that the president said it first, but Kash Patel quickly adopted this idea that everything that was at Mar-a-Lago was there legally simply because the president had taken it there. This is c"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5613347", "date": "2025-11-19", "guest": "Eric Swalwell", "title": "How Kash Patel is roiling the FBI and changing its mission", "question_index": 22, "text": "Also, Patel has lowered the standards for getting hired into the FBI. New agents no longer need a college degree, and now new agents have to take a polygraph test that includes loyalty to the FBI director.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's really a thoroughgoing change that he's brought to the FBI. The FBI has about 13,000 agents, and about a quarter of them have been assigned to work on going out and catching undocumented immigran"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5613347", "date": "2025-11-19", "guest": "Eric Swalwell", "title": "How Kash Patel is roiling the FBI and changing its mission", "question_index": 23, "text": "Patel has managed to cash in financially on being director of the FBI. Can you describe some of the ways he's cashed in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. This is something that Patel has denied, but we've heard this from several agents who said they've been asked about their loyalty to Director Patel and to his own personal agenda. This is one of"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5613347", "date": "2025-11-19", "guest": "Eric Swalwell", "title": "How Kash Patel is roiling the FBI and changing its mission", "question_index": 24, "text": "Patel also had a charity called the Kash Foundation, which promised to make grants to those who have the courage to stand up to government wrongdoing. What did you learn about how the money raised was used?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, during his time between administrations - so between his time at the National Security Council and his time as head of the FBI - he spent those out years on a number of efforts to make a lot of "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5613347", "date": "2025-11-19", "guest": "Eric Swalwell", "title": "How Kash Patel is roiling the FBI and changing its mission", "question_index": 25, "text": "And I should mention the Chinese company that he worked with is the company that owns, among other things, SHEIN, that fast fashion retailer. It's really popular in the U.S. because the prices are so cheap.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the Kash Foundation raised $1.3 million one year, and they spent something like $700,000 in expenses, but they only gave away $200,000. So out of the $1.3 million in revenue, only $200,000 went "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5613347", "date": "2025-11-19", "guest": "Eric Swalwell", "title": "How Kash Patel is roiling the FBI and changing its mission", "question_index": 26, "text": "So has he promised to recuse himself from any legal issues pertaining to companies that he has worked with and gotten paid by?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. And SHEIN's subsidiary, which Patel worked for, had a board that included investors who were accused of having ties to the Chinese military and the Chinese Communist Party. So there have been so"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5613347", "date": "2025-11-19", "guest": "Eric Swalwell", "title": "How Kash Patel is roiling the FBI and changing its mission", "question_index": 27, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Marc Fisher, who profiles Kash Patel in the current issue of The New Yorker. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To the contrary, in the case of his work for Qatar, Patel, after he took over the FBI, got a waiver from the U.S. government that allows him to continue to handle matters related to the government of "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5613347", "date": "2025-11-19", "guest": "Eric Swalwell", "title": "How Kash Patel is roiling the FBI and changing its mission", "question_index": 28, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday morning with Marc Fisher, who profiles FBI director Kash Patel in the current issue of The New Yorker, where Fisher is a contributor. The article is titled \"Kash Patel's Acts Of Service. This is kind of like a strange fact. I'm not quite sure how to interpret it. One of the things that Patel proposed was to bring mixed martial arts fighters to help FBI agents with their conditioning. And he proposed this to the head of the UFC, the Ultimate Fighting Championship. You know, related to that is that Trump wants to celebrate the 250th anniversary of the United States by having a mixed martial arts fight on the White House lawn. So what does that say about Patel and the MMA? Is he a fan, or is this just out of loyalty to Trump, who's planning to celebrate the 250th anniversary of the founding of the United States by having an MMA fight?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To the contrary, in the case of his work for Qatar, Patel, after he took over the FBI, got a waiver from the U.S. government that allows him to continue to handle matters related to the government of "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5613347", "date": "2025-11-19", "guest": "Eric Swalwell", "title": "How Kash Patel is roiling the FBI and changing its mission", "question_index": 29, "text": "What do FBI agents think of the idea of bringing in mixed martial arts fighters to help with FBI agents' conditioning?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm willing to give Kash Patel the benefit of the doubt and believe that he's a genuine fan of UFC. He seems to really enjoy it when he goes to the bouts. He went with Mel Gibson to that Vegas fight. "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5613347", "date": "2025-11-19", "guest": "Eric Swalwell", "title": "How Kash Patel is roiling the FBI and changing its mission", "question_index": 30, "text": "Do you have any insights into the relationship between Trump and Patel now? You've said basically that Patel was hired not because of his experience as much as for his loyalty to Trump. So now that he's been in that position a while, has it affected the relationship between him and Trump and Trump's trust in Patel?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can't quite capture for you just how humiliated and upset many FBI agents are by what they see as a belittling of their serious training, their serious academic background. This is an agency where a"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5613347", "date": "2025-11-19", "guest": "Eric Swalwell", "title": "How Kash Patel is roiling the FBI and changing its mission", "question_index": 31, "text": "Marc Fisher, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think what I've heard from people inside the bureau is that the president has been frustrated by some of Patel's missteps, such as his premature announcement that the Bureau had found and captured t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5613347", "date": "2025-11-19", "guest": "Eric Swalwell", "title": "How Kash Patel is roiling the FBI and changing its mission", "question_index": 32, "text": "Marc Fisher's profile of Kash Patel is titled \"Kash Patel's Acts Of Service.\" It's published in the current issue of The Atlantic. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be dream scientist Michelle Carr. She runs a sleep lab where she studies people as they're dreaming, with a focus on nightmares and lucid dreaming. She'll talk about her new book, \"Nightmare Obscura,\" and how she says we can change our recurring nightmares. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram, @nprfreshair. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Briger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren rensel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My pleasure."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 0, "text": "Now, what was your reaction when you read that your character was killed halfway through the story?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Marion Crane) Norman."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 1, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, actually, in the novel it's only two pages."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 2, "text": "Well - and it was. I mean, it was shocking for audiences when you were killed and when this motel owner, who you seemed to kind of pity if anything, turned out to really be a monster.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But when Mr. Hitchcock explained that he wasn't going to go into the entire history of this gentleman because it was just too much, that he was going to concentrate on Mary and the discovery of Mary. "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 3, "text": "Now, let's get to the shower scene. There were about suffer 70 different setup shots in the shower scene?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Well, that's why he was so - you know, Tony Perkins was just so brilliant because almost you wanted to mother him in a way. You know, you felt sorry and yet he had that undertone where there wo"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 4, "text": "How did Hitchcock explain what he wanted from you in that scene - in the overview, before getting in to each shot every day that you were doing a new shot?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. It was 70-plus."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 5, "text": "So every time you did a shot, you knew exactly where the camera was looking. You knew if the camera was looking at your navel or looking at your head.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the overview was the actual drawings of each shot. And so he showed us the overhead shots. He showed us this shot. He shows the close-up there. He showed us - you know, it was all planned."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 6, "text": "Now, say that camera was looking at your navel, did you feel, well, I don't have to particularly act in this shot? My face doesn't need to express anything 'cause the camera won't see it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course. Yeah. Because if it was looking at my navel, I could wear a bra and pants. You know, I mean, in other words, I dressed according to where the shot was, or undressed according to where the s"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 7, "text": "Now, what kind of knife was Anthony Perkins using?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's not exactly true because it's amazing how your body has a tone - has a - I don't know, a reaction to it. I can't explain it, but if you're just bland your body is going to be bland. But if you'"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 8, "text": "Was it a retracting knife?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A big long butcher knife. That's all I know."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 9, "text": "Now, what did you do - what did you think about to get that look of horror on your face when Tony Perkins pulls back the shower curtain and is there with his knife? Was just being in the moment with Tony Perkins enough, or did you think of other things beyond that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no. It didn't retract. It wasn't steel, however. I mean, it looked like steel but believe me it wasn't. Because what people forget is that we could not show penetration of a weapon. So you could n"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 10, "text": "With stand-ins?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that just - it wasn't always Tony Perkins doing that with the knife, you know. He had different people doing it."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 11, "text": "Oh, so you mean even on screen we weren't always seeing Anthony Perkins.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Stand-in, somebody - a woman at one point - so that the audience could never get a fix on the character. I mean, they all had the same clothes and wig and everything on, but different people were in d"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 12, "text": "That's very sneaky", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely. He wasn't even there. He was in New York rehearsing a play, I think."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, absolutely. He wasn't even there. He was in New York rehearsing a play, I think."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 14, "text": "Now, you were doing the shower scene, so although you weren't completely nude, you weren't exactly clothed, either. You write that you wore moleskin.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Janet Leigh speaking to Terry Gross in 1999. We'll hear more after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1999 interview with Janet Leigh about the making of the grou"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 15, "text": "Around your privates. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 16, "text": "You know, you must have felt particularly vulnerable 'cause here you are in the shower, you know, knowing that this actor with a big knife is going to be coming at you. But also you've got these crew guys looking at you from on top and from the sides making you feel, I'm sure, more vulnerable. Were you able to use that vulnerability knowing that the crew was looking at you when you were mostly naked? Could you work with that and use that for your facial expressions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because in the full shots where you wanted the body outline - right? - I wore moleskin over, you know, where I should. And that was, I think, the roughest - well, one of the roughest things about that"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 17, "text": "What was your reaction the first time you saw the final cut of that scene?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a closed set. But there were more people than I remember being on that set. And one time, one of the most difficult scenes technically and also for me was at the end, when she falls forward and"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 18, "text": "Do you mean it was more frightening to watch the scene than it was to shoot it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't see that scene separately, I saw the entire picture. But I have to tell you that I screamed bloody murder. I mean, I really did, even though I read the script, I'd done the show. I knew what "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 19, "text": "Why do you think that is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 20, "text": "So it's been only baths since the making of \"Psycho?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, because in shooting it, don't forget, you wait maybe two hours while they're setting up the shot. And of course the emotion is there when you're doing the scene, but then you relax again for ano"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 21, "text": "Alfred Hitchcock didn't want anyone in the audience to know that your character, Marion, was going to be killed or that Anthony Perkins was really the mother, you know, that he was...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. And if there's no other way, I mean, if wherever I happen to be only has a shower, it's with a door. The shower is never closed. The bathroom is very wet. And I'm always facing the door, and "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 22, "text": "...Impersonating his mother. So what did Hitchcock do to make sure that you and the other actors didn't inadvertently give away any of this information?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 23, "text": "Right. In fact, and the bywords of movie goers were, this is where we came in.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We did not go on tour for this picture, Mr. Hitchcock did. If you remember the classic, now, teaser for the movie is you never saw us really. You saw Mr. Hitchcock taking you through the motel and the"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 24, "text": "Because you'd come in in the middle of the movie, and you'd stay until that point came around again in the next showing, and then you'd leave.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 25, "text": "Right. Well, Janet Leigh, thank you so much for sharing some of your memories of \"Psycho\" with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. And what happened was he was sitting with his assistant, and he said, you know - he said, I just thought - he said, this stars Janet Leigh and Tony Perkins. What if somebody should come "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 26, "text": "Right. Now, what was the climax in the novel? And what did you think of the climax?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I wasn't so much worried about how \"The Birds\" would perform because I figured that was his job not mine, directing \"The Birds.\" But if we stuck to the original premise of these two people in th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 27, "text": "Hitchcock told you that he wanted to get rid of everything in the novella except the title.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The climax was the scene that survived, one of the few - the only scene that survived the story, where the finches come down the chimney into the cottage."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 28, "text": "And the idea of birds attacking. Did he have a similar reaction to the novella that you did, that there really wasn't much there that would adapt into a film?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 29, "text": "Now, you say in your book, \"Me And Hitch,\" that you wanted to do \"The Birds\" as a screwball comedy that suddenly turns terrifying.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think he had other reasons for not wanting to keep it the way it was. He liked to deal - in all of his movies, he dealt with more sophisticated people who were intelligent and quick-speaking and alm"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 30, "text": "Do you feel that that was a successful idea?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that idea came later. We went with several notions. I remember one of my ideas was to come out and have her a schoolteacher, the new school mom in this little town, Bodega Bay. And an inbred hos"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 31, "text": "Yeah, well, Hitchcock, I think, had wanted Grace Kelly and Cary Grant. Did you write with them in mind?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I thought it was a successful idea. But I'm not so good - I'm not so sure how successful it turned out to be in execution. It was a very difficult premise to bring off to begin with. And I think"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 32, "text": "How did you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, there was no question. They were at the forefront of both of our minds while we were talking the script, a Grace Kelly-Cary Grant team."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 33, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And of course..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 34, "text": "Now, when you were working with Hitchcock on the screenplay, did you talk a lot about why the birds were attacking?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was impossible, you know, because Grace was already in Monaco, as Hitch said, being a princess, you know? And Cary Grant wanted 50% of the picture, and Hitch would never give him anything like that"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 35, "text": "What happened to that scene?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It came up frequently because we didn't want to make the movie a science fiction film. We could've said, well, you know, the birds are attacking because there's a strain of virus 21-7 going around, an"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 36, "text": "Now, was Hitchcock concerned when you were writing the story about how he was going to technically pull off the bird scenes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "On the cutting room floor. I don't think he ever - wait, did he shoot that one? Yes, he did shoot it. He shot it, and it did not survive the final cut."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 37, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Never. I once asked him in one of our meetings, how far can I go with this, Hitch? And he said, go wherever you want and let me worry about it. You put it on paper, and I'll get it on film. And I thin"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 38, "text": "How many? What percentage of the birds would you say were puppets and animations, and how much of the birds was real?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But we did not have it. And I don't think he realized when he made that promise to me how difficult it was going to be to deal with birds and to deal with animation and to deal with puppetry and all t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 39, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm trying. I can't assign percentages to it. I can only give you absolute examples. The scene where the birds are attacking the town, where the gas station catches on fire and we cut to way above the"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 40, "text": "Let's hear a scene from the film. The townspeople are gathered in a restaurant after a bird attack on the school.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Evan Hunter speaking to Terry Gross in 1999. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1999 interview with Evan Hunter, who wrote the screenplay for Alfred Hi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 41, "text": "Now, do you feel that you learned things about building suspense by working on \"The Birds\" with Hitchcock?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Salesman) I'm going out that way, lady. You can follow me. UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR #1: (As character) Well, then let's leave now."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 42, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "? So it's easy to do a phone call to papa. Or things like - I'll remember this always. When I described the scene to him where she goes up to the attic. I don't know if you recall the movie, where the"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 43, "text": "Can you think of an example of a scene that Hitchcock added that you hadn't written?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I said, well - you know, I realized he had me. And he said, we'll take the curse off it. He said, we'll have her first go into the kitchen and spot the lovebirds in the cage. And this makes her fee"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 44, "text": "The other nice thing about a phone booth is that she's enclosed but it's also a transparent enclosure, so you can see her through the glass.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Well, there were many in the film. For example, the scene where Melanie is trapped in the phone booth. This is not in the screenplay at all, not at all. The scene ends. I don't know, the birds ar"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 45, "text": "Now, did you enjoy working with Hitchcock?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And you can see everything that's happening. And you see people running and the one guy with blood all over his face almost trying to want to get in the phone booth. So it was a brilliant scene and no"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5616265", "date": "2025-11-21", "guest": "Anthony Perkins", "title": "Marking 65 years of Hitchcock's 'Psycho' with actor Janet Leigh", "question_index": 46, "text": "And then attacked you, right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Use a metaphor."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5619202", "date": "2025-11-25", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "A former U.S. attorney offers 'A Manual for Keeping a Democracy'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Joyce Vance, is worried about whether American democracy is sturdy enough to withstand what she describes as the antidemocratic moves that President Donald Trump and his administration have spewed out with overwhelming force and velocity. In her new book, she writes about how to save the republic and what we can accomplish in the future if we renew our commitment to democracy. For people who are wondering - but what can I do? - she has suggestions. Her new bestselling book is titled \"Giving Up Is Unforgivable: A Manual For Keeping A Democracy.\" You may know Vance as a longtime legal analyst for MSNBC, which has been rebranded as MS NOW. After 25 years as a career federal prosecutor, she was appointed by President Obama as the U.S. attorney for the Northern District of Alabama, a position she held throughout his presidency. She resigned in 2017, a day before Trump's first inauguration. She also writes the Civil Discourse newsletter on Substack, co-hosts two podcasts - SistersInLaw and CAFE Insider - and is a distinguished professor of the practice of law at the University of Alabama School of Law. Let's start with a clip dating back to last March, when Judge James Boasberg had ordered the Trump administration to turn around deportation flights of Venezuelan migrants heading to El Salvador. When those flights did not turn around, it raised the question whether the administration was defying the judge's orders. Trump was asked whether he would ever defy a court order in an interview on Laura Ingraham's Fox News show \"The Ingraham Angle.\" Here's Trump's response.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5619202", "date": "2025-11-25", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "A former U.S. attorney offers 'A Manual for Keeping a Democracy'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Joyce Vance, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I - you can't do that. However, we have bad judges. We have very bad judges, and these are judges that shouldn't be allowed. I think they - I think at a certain point, you have to start looking at"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5619202", "date": "2025-11-25", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "A former U.S. attorney offers 'A Manual for Keeping a Democracy'", "question_index": 2, "text": "How do you interpret the clip we just heard?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for having me."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5619202", "date": "2025-11-25", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "A former U.S. attorney offers 'A Manual for Keeping a Democracy'", "question_index": 3, "text": "So Trump is kind of challenging the separation of powers, and I'm wondering if you think that's going to have a long-term effect after he leaves office.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, this is an effort by the president to walk this tightrope that he's been walking between compliance with the courts while, at the same time, bashing the federal judiciary. And so this "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5619202", "date": "2025-11-25", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "A former U.S. attorney offers 'A Manual for Keeping a Democracy'", "question_index": 4, "text": "But in the use of, like, the unitary executive theory, I've been wondering. Like, back when the Constitution said that the president has executive power, what did executive mean back then? Like, you know...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, Trump is setting precedent in his behavior, and the Supreme Court is setting precedent in case law. Ever since the conclusion of the Nixon presidency in Watergate, there have been people who"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5619202", "date": "2025-11-25", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "A former U.S. attorney offers 'A Manual for Keeping a Democracy'", "question_index": 5, "text": "...Meanings change over time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it's a great..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5619202", "date": "2025-11-25", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "A former U.S. attorney offers 'A Manual for Keeping a Democracy'", "question_index": 6, "text": "Last week, several members of Congress made a video of each of them addressing members of the military, basically saying, you can refuse illegal orders. And they basically advised them that they should do that. And Trump, in response on social media, posted, seditious behavior from traitors. Lock them up. Lock them up - with three exclamation points after each, lock them up. Then there was another post where he wrote, seditious behavior, punishable by death.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's a great question because obviously, so much of our government is transformative. We don't have to look any further than the Second Amendment, where, at the time the founders created that ri"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5619202", "date": "2025-11-25", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "A former U.S. attorney offers 'A Manual for Keeping a Democracy'", "question_index": 7, "text": "I want to interrupt here with a brief update. After we recorded our interview yesterday morning, the Pentagon announced it's investigating Arizona senator and retired U.S. Navy captain Mark Kelly, who is one of the Democratic lawmakers in the video we're discussing, calling on members of the military not to obey illegal orders. We'll hear more of my interview with Joyce Vance, a former U.S. attorney, author of \"Giving Up Is Unforgivable: A Manual For Keeping A Democracy,\" after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This was an extraordinary move by the president, and I don't mean extraordinary in a positive sense. Look, these members of Congress, who were all former members of the military or the intelligence co"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5619202", "date": "2025-11-25", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "A former U.S. attorney offers 'A Manual for Keeping a Democracy'", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Joyce Vance. Her new book is about threats to our democracy and what individuals can do to protect and preserve it. It's titled \"Giving Up Is Unforgivable.\" There are things President Trump has said that have really posed a direct threat to judges or prosecutors who have challenged him as we've been discussing. And I don't know if you were married yet when your husband's father, who was a judge, was murdered by a mail bomb. So your family is very familiar with threats against judges, and I assume your husband might have had his own threats. And you, as a former federal prosecutor and now legal analyst on television, I'm sure you've had your share, as well. So can you tell us what happened with your father-in-law, why he was mail bombed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This was an extraordinary move by the president, and I don't mean extraordinary in a positive sense. Look, these members of Congress, who were all former members of the military or the intelligence co"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5619202", "date": "2025-11-25", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "A former U.S. attorney offers 'A Manual for Keeping a Democracy'", "question_index": 9, "text": "So in your book about what people can do to preserve democracy in the U.S., you quote Alexander Hamilton, who said, the judiciary is beyond comparison as the weakest of the three departments of power. Why did Hamilton say the judiciary is the weakest? And do you think it still is? Do you think what Hamilton said stands up now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, sure. So we were newly married. We were pregnant with our first child. And the bomb actually came to our home - to my in-laws' home at the time - disguised as a box from one of the judges on my "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5619202", "date": "2025-11-25", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "A former U.S. attorney offers 'A Manual for Keeping a Democracy'", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, now we have a president who is assuming as much power as he possibly can. We have Republicans in Congress mostly following the president's wishes, and we have a Supreme Court that is a supermajority of Republicans, made a supermajority by Trump's appointments. I don't want to imply that all Republicans follow him or that the Supreme Court is fixed in some way. Nevertheless, he exerts enormous influence on, you know, the Supreme Court and Congress. So do you see that as being out of balance in terms of the division of branches of government?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It really does in this sense - the power that the judiciary possesses is dependent upon the public's confidence in the objectivity of the judiciary, in our willingness to go along with decisions that "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5619202", "date": "2025-11-25", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "A former U.S. attorney offers 'A Manual for Keeping a Democracy'", "question_index": 11, "text": "So Judge Boasberg, who is the judge in question in the clip that we heard and who had ordered the deportation planes that the Trump administration had ordered to take off, the judge ordered the planes to turn around. And Trump did not fulfill that order. So Judge Boasberg recently said he plans to move ahead with looking at whether his orders were ignored, which could lead to contempt proceedings. Can you explain that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Every federal judge who takes the bench gets there because a president from one party or the other appointed him or her, so that's the mechanism by which they all get there. But judges are remarkably "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5619202", "date": "2025-11-25", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "A former U.S. attorney offers 'A Manual for Keeping a Democracy'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Let's take another break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Joyce Vance. And she has a new book, which is called \"Giving Up Is Unforgivable: A Manual For Keeping A Democracy.\" She served as U.S. attorney for the northern district of Alabama during the Obama administration and is a longtime contributor, legal analyst for MSNBC, which is now MS NOW. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The government objected to Judge Boasberg's efforts to raise contempt proceedings in this case. So the judge had entered an order that would've required the planes to turn around. In his view, the gov"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5619202", "date": "2025-11-25", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "A former U.S. attorney offers 'A Manual for Keeping a Democracy'", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Joyce Vance. Her new book is about threats to our democracy and what individuals can do to protect and preserve it. It's titled \"Giving Up Is Unforgivable.\" You may recognize Vance as a longtime legal analyst for MSNBC, which has been rebranded MS NOW. She also writes the Substack newsletter Civil Discourse and co-hosts the podcasts SistersInLaw and CAFE Insider. Vance spent 25 years as a federal prosecutor before President Obama appointed her as U.S. attorney for the Northern District of Alabama. She held the position throughout his presidency and resigned the day before Trump's first inauguration. So before we get back to talking about the issues of the day, I want to talk a little bit about you and your experiences. You were appointed as a U.S. attorney for the Northern District of Alabama by President Obama. So you were one of the first five U.S. attorneys that he nominated. And the first time you met Obama, what advice did he give you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The government objected to Judge Boasberg's efforts to raise contempt proceedings in this case. So the judge had entered an order that would've required the planes to turn around. In his view, the gov"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5619202", "date": "2025-11-25", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "A former U.S. attorney offers 'A Manual for Keeping a Democracy'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Do you think you would have acted that way without Obama's advice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So during my time as the U.S. attorney in Birmingham, and all of my colleagues across the country - there are 93 U.S. attorneys at any one moment in time - we didn't have personal meetings with the pr"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5619202", "date": "2025-11-25", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "A former U.S. attorney offers 'A Manual for Keeping a Democracy'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Is there a case you'd like to mention when you were a U.S. attorney that had the most lasting impact or that was most important to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's how prosecutors are hardwired to act. Really, it's a job that's about community service. That might seem a little bit funny because in many ways, the job is about putting criminals in prison. B"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5619202", "date": "2025-11-25", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "A former U.S. attorney offers 'A Manual for Keeping a Democracy'", "question_index": 16, "text": "I'm still thinking about how this bill would basically require children to turn in their parents or just stay home and not go to school at all.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That is such a hard call to make because, you know, you don't have the resources to do every case that's out there, and so prosecutors are constantly using their judgment to bring the cases that are t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5619202", "date": "2025-11-25", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "A former U.S. attorney offers 'A Manual for Keeping a Democracy'", "question_index": 17, "text": "What we're seeing today with the emphasis on deportations - it seems like a very loud echo of the case you were just describing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, Alabama is a headcount state, which means that the way our education funding comes in is that there is an actual headcount that's made of the number of kids in school on a certain day, and f"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5619202", "date": "2025-11-25", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "A former U.S. attorney offers 'A Manual for Keeping a Democracy'", "question_index": 18, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Joyce Vance, and her new book is called \"Giving Up Is Unforgivable: A Manual For Keeping A Democracy.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sometimes in Alabama, we joke that we're 10 years ahead of the rest of the country, except that we don't mean that we're ahead. Often, when it comes to these sorts of plans, they're tried in places li"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5619202", "date": "2025-11-25", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "A former U.S. attorney offers 'A Manual for Keeping a Democracy'", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Joyce Vance. Her new book is about threats to our democracy and what individuals can do to protect and preserve it. It's titled \"Giving Up Is Unforgivable.\" How surprised were you that the Supreme Court ruled that a president was basically above the law in any alleged crime if that alleged crime happened during a presidential action?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sometimes in Alabama, we joke that we're 10 years ahead of the rest of the country, except that we don't mean that we're ahead. Often, when it comes to these sorts of plans, they're tried in places li"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5619202", "date": "2025-11-25", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "A former U.S. attorney offers 'A Manual for Keeping a Democracy'", "question_index": 20, "text": "What would it take to overturn the Supreme Court decision that says - that basically says the president is above the law?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I was very surprised. I've had to hock my crystal ball for predicting Supreme Court decisions because I don't think I'm very good at it, based on that case. You know, what it came down to for me wa"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5619202", "date": "2025-11-25", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "A former U.S. attorney offers 'A Manual for Keeping a Democracy'", "question_index": 21, "text": "Trump has several personal lawyers in high-placed positions now in his administration. Pam Bondi, the director of the Justice Department, was a former personal lawyer. The deputy attorney general, Todd Blanche, former personal lawyer. And - who am I leaving out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In large part, Supreme Court decisions are only infrequently reversed outright, although we've seen a lot of that in recent years, right? We've seen, for instance, Dobbs, the case that took away Roe v"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5619202", "date": "2025-11-25", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "A former U.S. attorney offers 'A Manual for Keeping a Democracy'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Emil Bove, who's now..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5619202", "date": "2025-11-25", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "A former U.S. attorney offers 'A Manual for Keeping a Democracy'", "question_index": 23, "text": "So it strikes a lot of people as being very unethical to have your former personal attorney, who is obviously on your side, be the head of the Justice Department, who will be making rulings pertaining to you. So that seems like a conflict of interest. But is there anything official that would prohibit it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...A Third Circuit Judge."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5619202", "date": "2025-11-25", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "A former U.S. attorney offers 'A Manual for Keeping a Democracy'", "question_index": 24, "text": "I want to play another clip. And this is a clip I think a lot of our listeners have already seen. It's from last week after the House and Senate approved release of the Epstein files. And now there are new investigations that will be under way based on those files. This is Pam Bondi last week at a press conference after the Epstein files were approved for release.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Trump is a unicorn. He's the only sitting president who's had, for instance, a former impeachment lawyer - Pam Bondi - or a former criminal lawyer - Todd Blanche - who he can appoint. I think that we "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5619202", "date": "2025-11-25", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "A former U.S. attorney offers 'A Manual for Keeping a Democracy'", "question_index": 25, "text": "What was your reaction when you heard that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would refer to the deputy attorney general's post that he put out on X. And we're not going to say anything else on that because now it is a pending investigation in the Southern District of New Yor"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5619202", "date": "2025-11-25", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "A former U.S. attorney offers 'A Manual for Keeping a Democracy'", "question_index": 26, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Joyce Vance. And her new book is called \"Giving Up Is Unforgivable: A Manual For Keeping A Democracy.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For starters, this is clearly a pretextual investigation designed to give the Justice Department an excuse for not turning over the Epstein files, despite this new law that Congress has passed and the"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5619202", "date": "2025-11-25", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "A former U.S. attorney offers 'A Manual for Keeping a Democracy'", "question_index": 27, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Joyce Vance. Her new book is about threats to our democracy and what individuals can do to protect and preserve it. It's titled \"Giving Up Is Unforgivable.\" The main point of your book is don't give up. Whatever it is you're capable of doing to preserve democracy, do that. But I want to bring up something you bring up in the book, which is the example of your youngest son", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For starters, this is clearly a pretextual investigation designed to give the Justice Department an excuse for not turning over the Epstein files, despite this new law that Congress has passed and the"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5619202", "date": "2025-11-25", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "A former U.S. attorney offers 'A Manual for Keeping a Democracy'", "question_index": 28, "text": "And his disengagement from American politics. And you point out, when he was growing up, things were already eroding. He didn't lose what older people have lost, which is the assumption of democracy. Can you tell us more about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5619202", "date": "2025-11-25", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "A former U.S. attorney offers 'A Manual for Keeping a Democracy'", "question_index": 29, "text": "Are you surprised that your son is thinking the way he's thinking about politics?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So in a series of conversations with my youngest son, who's 22, I came to understand a fundamental issue that we need to confront, which is this. My kid is young, well-educated, smart and he's a voter"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5619202", "date": "2025-11-25", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "A former U.S. attorney offers 'A Manual for Keeping a Democracy'", "question_index": 30, "text": "In your book, you make it clear you think our institutions will hold. The Supreme Court, Congress - what makes you think that? You've been so critical of moves made during the Trump administration, Trump One and Trump Two.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, to be honest, with a 22-year-old - right? - you're never sure what's going on in their head. And I was very surprised by how strong his pushback was. In our first conversation, he was "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5619202", "date": "2025-11-25", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "A former U.S. attorney offers 'A Manual for Keeping a Democracy'", "question_index": 31, "text": "Joyce Vance, thank you so much for coming on our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The architecture that the Founding Fathers created for our democracy is a sound and a sensible structure. And over the course of our history, it's demonstrated that it's nimble enough to survive serio"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5619202", "date": "2025-11-25", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "A former U.S. attorney offers 'A Manual for Keeping a Democracy'", "question_index": 32, "text": "Joyce Vance's new book is called \"Giving Up Is Unforgivable: A Manual For Keeping A Democracy.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be Michael Shannon. He's best known for playing intense, unhinged characters like Nelson Van Alden in \"Boardwalk Empire.\" Now he plays President James Garfield in the new Netflix series \"Death By Lightning,\" and he is a prosecutor trying Nazi leaders for war crimes in the new film \"Nuremberg.\" I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5619202", "date": "2025-11-25", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "A former U.S. attorney offers 'A Manual for Keeping a Democracy'", "question_index": 33, "text": "To keep up with what's on our show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram, @nprfreshair. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Briger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 0, "text": "Earl Scruggs, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) There's a rabbit in the log, and I ain't got my dog. How will I get him, I know. I'll get me a briar, and I'll twist it in his hair. That way I'll get him, I know. I know, I know. I know, I "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 1, "text": "Now, you grew up during the Depression. Your father died when you were 4. How did your family make a living when he died?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 2, "text": "Right. Who did you hear play banjo before you started playing yourself? I mean, I've read that there was no radio in your house when you were growing up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was a farmer, also. So I stayed on the farm until I got old enough to get a job in the factory. And on the farm, you worked from daylight till dark, and in the factory, you work eight hours. So I t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 3, "text": "So who did you hear? How did you hear them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 4, "text": "So could you put into words what your style of picking is the three-finger style?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We had a banjo in our home. My father played old-style banjo, so I had a banjo there, and my brother, Horace, had a guitar. And so we just started playing just old tunes that we'd heard before. And th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 5, "text": "Since you didn't have a radio when you were very young and you didn't have a record player...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's just what you hear. It's - involves - it's a little misleading to say three fingers. It's actually two fingers - middle and index finger - and your thumb. And it's a - kind of - some of the"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 6, "text": "...And so you were just, like, hearing, you know, musicians who may have been, you know, living where you were, how did you come up with your style of playing, with your style of picking?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 7, "text": "Now, you joined Bill Monroe's Blue Grass Boys in 1945. This was the group that basically created the sound that's become known as bluegrass. When you joined the band, could you hear that something different was happening there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, we - I guess, the old days, you have a one main room you have - you take company to when they come that you don't use every day. So I was in what we call the front room with a banjo one day. And I"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 8, "text": "Why don't we hear one of your recordings with Bill Monroe from 1947? This is one of the famous ones, \"Bluegrass Breakdown,\" with Bill Monroe on mandolin, Lester Flatt, guitar, my guest Earl Scruggs, banjo, recorded in 1947.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. He'd - nobody had had this style banjo in the group, and he just did the type tunes that would make the banjo sound good. So it was a good shot to start with because he had Grand Ole Opry ex"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 9, "text": "Bill Monroe and his Blue Grass Boys recorded in 1947 with my guest Earl Scruggs on banjo. What was life on the road like with Bill Monroe?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. He'd - nobody had had this style banjo in the group, and he just did the type tunes that would make the banjo sound good. So it was a good shot to start with because he had Grand Ole Opry ex"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 10, "text": "But why did you hate traveling so much with the band?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". If I hadn't have been 21 years old and full of energy, just came off in a farm and a thread mill where I could, you know - I thought to do an hour show on the road was a pushover compared to eight h"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 11, "text": "Mm-hmm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Why did I hate it?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 12, "text": "Now, it was in the Bill Monroe band that you met guitarist Lester Flatt, who became...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We'll hear more of Terry's 2003 interview with musician Earl Scruggs after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. We're marking the 100th anniversary of country music's Grand Ole Opry. Let's g"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 13, "text": "...Your long musical partner. What did - what were your first impressions of him when you first heard him play and sing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 14, "text": "Now, you started recording - you and Lester Flatt started recording in, I think it was 1948, and for the first couple of years, you recorded for Mercury Records.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I liked his singing, and his playing fit in good with that style of music. And we palled around together, roomed together. And so we did that and - for 2 1/2, three years. And that's when, reall"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 15, "text": "During that period, you recorded what became one of your best-known songs, \"Foggy Mountain Breakdown.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 16, "text": "Is there a story behind the song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 17, "text": "How did \"Foggy Mountain Breakdown\" end up being used in the movie \"Bonnie And Clyde\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's just a simple song that I probably wrote in 10 or 15 minutes. And it - and I've written several other tunes and had some pretty big hits, but nothing like \"Foggy Mountain Breakdown.\""}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 18, "text": "Who called?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He called and wanted me to write a tune for the..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 19, "text": "So you're saying that he used the original recording and he didn't want you to re-record it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Warren Beatty, who wrote and starred in the show. And so he called back - I think I'm quoting this exactly the way it was - in a few days, and he said he didn't want me to write anything because he"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 20, "text": "Why don't we hear that original recording of \"Foggy Mountain Breakdown,\" and this is Lester Flatt and my guest, Earl Scruggs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He took the Mercury recording and that was it."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 21, "text": "Now, you mentioned when you got off the road with Bill Monroe, what you wanted to do is a radio show. And first, you did one in Bristol. Then, in 1953, you ended up doing a radio show in Nashville at a station there. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He took the Mercury recording and that was it."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 22, "text": "...Yeah, and it was, I think, a 15-minute program, every morning at 5:45, which is", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "WMC, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 23, "text": "pretty darn early...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "WMC, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 24, "text": "...To have to perform.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 25, "text": "The show...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "a live radio program. But that was your bread and butter in those days. By that, I mean, we made our real - really, our living by the road work that we did. We'd go out and do shows and charge admissi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 26, "text": "...The show was sponsored by Martha White flour.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know, bigger auditoriums and bigger crowds."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 27, "text": "And I understand the jingle for that became pretty well known, and you were even requested to play it at some of your concerts. I've never heard it. How did it go?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 28, "text": "So did you get, like, a lifetime supply of free Martha White flour?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I thought it was pretty cleverly written."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 29, "text": "How long did that show last?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no. Oh, no. They would probably have done that. But I got a lifetime of work with Martha White. It's a great company. And they helped us just more than I could total up, I guess."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 30, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I wish my wife was in here. She could tell you better than me, but it lasted for a lot of years. And we went into television. Television came in in about 1955, so they put us - we started transcri"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 31, "text": "There is a Gibson banjo that is named for you. It's called the Earl.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And if we weren't working on Sunday, we were free until 4 o'clock Monday morning, and we started that 2,500-mile tour again."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 32, "text": "It has a portrait of you", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 33, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 34, "text": ".... On it and your signature. Is it a lot of fun to have, you know, a banjo that's dedicated to you, that bears your name and likeness?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 35, "text": "Do you play one of those Gibsons or do you play something else?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is. As a matter of fact, they're making five different models with my name on it, from the plain banjo, which - they're all basically the same banjo. What runs up the cost is, like, gold plating, e"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 36, "text": "Is it an Earl", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah, I play a Gibson banjo."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 37, "text": "?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah, I play a Gibson banjo."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 38, "text": "When you say you're still playing the same banjo, do you mean it's literally the same instrument or that it's the same model?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, basically, it is. I'm playing a banjo that I've been playing since back in the late '40s, I guess, early '50s. But it's still - they're still making basically the same banjo they were making way"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 39, "text": "Same banjo. So do you have to get it, like, redone occasionally?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Same banjo."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 40, "text": "Now, what do you love so much about this banjo? Is it just a sentimental attachment, or is there something special about the sound?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the only thing you're going to wear out on the banjo is the head. The head is - used to be skin, but now it's plastic. They will wear out on you. And the strings. Outside of that, you could play"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 41, "text": "Well, I want to thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it produces the sound that my ear is looking for. Maybe I've just gotten used to it, but I like the sound that I get out of that particular banjo. I feel at home with it when I take it out of th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 42, "text": "Now, the song we just heard, that's the first song you wrote. It was your first record, released in 1960.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Ever since you left me, I've done nothing but wrong. Many nights I've laid awake and cried. We once were happy. My heart was in a whirl. But now I'm a honky tonk girl. So turn that jukebox w"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 43, "text": "You say you wrote it in 20 minutes on a $17 guitar that your husband bought for you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 44, "text": "...Because he thought you sang well.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 45, "text": "And you wrote a song because he told you to. Do you think you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 46, "text": "...Ever would have written or performed if your husband didn't say that's what you should do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 47, "text": "So when you wrote \"Honky Tonk Girl\" with absolutely no songwriting experience, how did you approach writing a song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I wouldn't have because I was too bashful. I wouldn't get out in front of people. I wouldn't - you know, I was really bashful. And I wouldn't - I would have never sang in front of anybody."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 48, "text": "Did you say the toilet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I just sat down with my guitar. I was outside. In fact, I was leaning up against the old toilet out there on the West Coast, in Washington state."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 49, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The old toilet, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 50, "text": "So what made you think of the story that you tell in \"Honky Tonk Girl\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I sat there and wrote \"Honky Tonk Girl\" and \"Whispering Sea.\""}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 51, "text": "And had you hung out on - at honky tonks or did you know them from songs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think I probably listened to a bunch of people, you know, their songs and stuff. And I figured, well, I can - if they can write, I can too. So I just said, hey, I'm going to tell a story. And "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 52, "text": "So you were doing some performing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. When I first started writing, my husband got me a job at this little bar. And me and a steel player and my brother - he played the fiddle and sang. So we sang together and - so we really had a goo"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 53, "text": "I see.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I just had started."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 54, "text": "But at home you sang?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In fact, I had never sang in front of anybody till my husband pushed me out there, you know? I'd never been out and sang for anybody."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 55, "text": "So when you recorded your first single, \"Honky Tonk Girl,\" you were 24. You'd already been married for 11 years 'cause you got married when you were 13. And you already had four children. Do I have that right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I rocked the babies to sleep. And in Kentucky, when I was growing up with my sisters and brothers, we all sang and rocked the babies to sleep, you know? But that was about as far as we ever did, you k"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 56, "text": "And the twins came a little bit later", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had four kids."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 57, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had four kids."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 58, "text": "What was your life like as a wife and mother before you started recording?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, the twins come later."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 59, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It wasn't easy. Me and my husband both worked. I took care of the farmhouse. I cleaned and cooked for 36 ranch hands."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 60, "text": "Wait. So you cooked and cleaned for 36 ranch hands and had four children?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And - yeah, before I started singing. And so it - singing was easy. I thought, gee whiz, this is an easy job."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 61, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure did. Paid the rent on the old house that we lived in. And that's what I did to make the rent. Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 62, "text": "So when you made your first appearance on the Opry, which was the same year that you recorded \"Honky Tonk Girl\"...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 63, "text": "...You weren't used to performing on such a prestigious stage in front of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 64, "text": "...An audience like that. Did you know how to perform on stage in a place like the Opry?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 65, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not really. I just got out there with my guitar and I sang. I mean, I just did it just like I was doing it at home, you know? I never thought about it being the Grand Ole Opry because if I had have, I"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 66, "text": "It's so much like what you do every day.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not really. I just got out there with my guitar and I sang. I mean, I just did it just like I was doing it at home, you know? I never thought about it being the Grand Ole Opry because if I had have, I"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 67, "text": "So the next song we're going to hear is a song that you first recorded in 1966 - \"Don't Come Home A-Drinkin' (With Lovin' On Your Mind).\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 68, "text": "And this is a great song. But first, I want to hear the story of how you wrote it. You'd already had about six years of songwriting experience behind you. You probably were no longer leaning against the toilet when you", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 69, "text": "wrote this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 70, "text": "Doo is your husband.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was probably - Doo had fixed me a little writing room at this time, out in Goodliesfield (ph)."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 71, "text": "Was your late husband, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And - uh-huh."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 72, "text": "And at this point, did you feel like, I know how to write a song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Doo was my husband, yes. And he's the only one I've ever had. And so he fixed me this little writing room, and I'd go out there and I'd write. And this is one of the songs that I wrote, was \"Don't Com"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 73, "text": "Now, you've said that your husband is in every song that you've written, in a large way or in a small way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. When I wrote \"Don't Come Home A-Drinkin'\" I knew I could write 'cause I'd had quite a few on the charts by that time."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 74, "text": "Were you thinking of him when you wrote this song? I mean...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", if I write a song, he's in there somewhere."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 75, "text": "...Would he come home after drinking like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 76, "text": "Was this song intended to send him a message at all?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Why, sure. If a man drinks, he's going to come home drinking. He liked to drink."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 77, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not really. I probably told him many times. I didn't have to sing about it."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 78, "text": "Well, let's hear the song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 79, "text": "This is \"Don't Come Home A-Drinkin',\" recorded in 1966 by Loretta Lynn.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 80, "text": "And it was a No.1 country music chart hit.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 81, "text": "Now, when you started performing, Patsy Cline was your mentor until she died.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Well, you thought I'd be waiting up when you came home last night. You'd been out with all the boys, and you ended up half tight. But liquor and love, they just don't mix. Leave the bottle o"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 82, "text": "So she must have really related to what you were going through.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But, you know, she hadn't been in the business that long when I come to Nashville. She'd only been singing two or three years. And - yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 83, "text": "What were some of the things that she taught you that really helped you a lot? Things relating to - you know, from clothing, to performing style, to dealing with the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 84, "text": "...Music industry. Yeah, go ahead.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she kind of helped me..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 85, "text": "What did she tell you about how to dress?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know, with the style and everything that I was - you know, I was in blue jeans and a T-shirt or blue jeans and just a Western shirt. And she taught me a lot, how to dress and about (ph)..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 86, "text": "And did she give you any advice about performing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 87, "text": "This has some lyrics that I think, you know, really were controversial in some country music circles at the time. And the lyrics include, this old maternity dress I've got is going in the garbage. You've set this chicken your last time 'cause now I've got the pill.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 88, "text": "I'm tearing down this brooder house 'cause now I've got the pill.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 89, "text": "So this song sounds autobiographical in some ways. I'm not saying that you are necessarily angry in the way that the character in the song is angry, but you had six children.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 90, "text": "You lost three?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had six kids. I lost three."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 91, "text": "Oh, I'm sorry.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I lost three."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 92, "text": "I didn't realize that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was about..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 93, "text": "Oh, so you had six and lost three others?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Five and six - well, it wasn't - you know, I lost them before they were born."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 94, "text": "Wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mm-hmm."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 95, "text": "That's a lot of pregnancies.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 96, "text": "Right. OK. Stating the obvious.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 97, "text": "Did you share the song's anger?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 98, "text": "Let's hear it. And this was released in 1975...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I sure didn't like it when I got pregnant a few times. You know, it's hard for a woman to have so many kids. And, well, at the time, I guess I had four, and then got pregnant and had - you know,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 99, "text": "...Recorded in 1972. This is Loretta Lynn, \"The Pill.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 100, "text": "Now, you've said that you never even used the pill as birth control", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You wined me and dined me when I was your girl. Promised if I'd be your wife, you'd show me the world. But all I've seen of this old world is a bed and a doctor bill. I'm tearing down your b"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 101, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) You wined me and dined me when I was your girl. Promised if I'd be your wife, you'd show me the world. But all I've seen of this old world is a bed and a doctor bill. I'm tearing down your b"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 102, "text": "I see", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, if I'd have had it, I'd have used it..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 103, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...At the time, but yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 104, "text": "Well, you write that there's a lot you didn't know about when you got married in 1947, and you say you didn't...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "'Cause see, when - back when I was having all the kids, we didn't have birth control pills. Or if they did, I didn't know anything about them."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 105, "text": "No. You said you didn't know anything about sex...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Didn't know anything about sex, either, did I?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 106, "text": "...Or even pregnancy. You say, when you got pregnant, you didn't even know the word? Is that right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 107, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't know. I guess we just called it having a baby. We didn't call it pregnant. Back in Butcher Hollow, there was a lot of things we didn't know."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 108, "text": "You probably had no idea you were ever going to become famous.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A lot of things they still don't know back there."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 109, "text": "I want to play another song, and this is something more recent than what we've been hearing. This is your collaboration with Jack White. He produced an album of yours in 2004 of \"Van Lear Rose.\" How did you meet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I'm just me."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 110, "text": "The track I want to play is called \"Miss Being Mrs.\" You wrote all the songs on this album. And this is one of my favorites. I like the song a lot, and also I just love how stripped down it is. It's just you and a guitar. Is that Jack White on guitar?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I went to Detroit to work, and Jack White came to see me. And, of course, he told me about when he was little, he was about 9 years old when \"Coal Miner's Daughter\" came out, he stayed in the theater "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 111, "text": "OK. Do you want to say anything about writing the song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's Jack White?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 112, "text": "All right, good enough. So this is Loretta Lynn from the 2004 album \"Van Lear Rose,\" produced by Jack White, who's accompanying her on guitar.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I don't like to talk about the way I write songs. I just let people hear them. They all know what I'm talking about."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 113, "text": "That's my guest, Loretta Lynn, with Jack White on guitar from the album \"Van Lear Rose,\" which Jack White produced of Loretta Lynn songs in 2004. Your husband, who we've spoken a little bit about, died in 1996, and you didn't perform for a while after that. How has your life changed since he's been gone?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I lie here all alone in my bed of memories. I'm dreaming of your sweet kiss. Oh, how you loved on me. I can almost feel you with me here in this blue moonlight. Oh, I miss being Mrs. tonight"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 114, "text": "You know, so many people are, I think, kind of baffled a little bit by the relationship 'cause it seems in some ways to have been a very rocky relationship. And at the same time, you stayed with him throughout.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, not for the better. I mean, I miss him so much, you know? He kind of kept things going, like, me recording, and he'd always tell me how good I was, you know? And that always helped a lot. And he"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 115, "text": "You don't need him anymore to tell him you're a good singer, right? I mean, you know that, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, we had a - I think we had a relationship - we fought one day and would love the next. So, I mean, that's - to me, that's a good relationship. If you can't fight, and if you can't tell each other w"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5620755", "date": "2025-11-28", "guest": "Scruggs And Ricky Skaggs", "title": "Marking 100 years of the Grand Ole Opry with Earl Scruggs and Loretta Lynn", "question_index": 116, "text": "Well, Loretta Lynn, it's really been great to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't know about that, but I try."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Alex Horton, is the reporter who broke the story that's been dominating the news since last Friday when it was published in The Washington Post. It's about what happened on September 2, when the U.S. military carried out the first deadly strike on a Venezuelan boat in the Caribbean. All 11 aboard were killed. The Trump administration alleged the targets were narcoterrorists and that the boat was carrying drugs, despite providing no evidence. However, two of the crew actually survived the initial strike. They were alive in the water holding on to the wreckage when they were killed in a subsequent strike. Horton and his colleague Ellen Nakashima reported that the command to kill the survivors was issued by Admiral Frank Bradley, the special operations commander overseeing the mission, and that he was complying with Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth's verbal command to kill everyone on board. But Hegseth's order came before the actual strikes. The Washington Post report led to House and Senate lawmakers from both sides of the aisle to call for reviews of the boat strikes. Some are raising the question of whether this amounts to a war crime or murder. The U.S. military has conducted strikes on at least 20 other vessels of alleged drug smugglers, killing dozens in the last few months. This may be part of the Trump administration's pressure campaign to get Venezuelan leader Nicolas Maduro to relinquish power and the possibility that the U.S. could go to war with Venezuela if he doesn't. That's something we'll discuss later in the interview. Alex Horton is a Washington Post national security reporter focused on the U.S. military. We recorded our interview yesterday morning. Later in the day, President Donald Trump and Secretary Pete Hegseth commented on the story during a Cabinet meeting. So we spoke to Horton again this morning to get his response to what was said. We'll hear that in a few minutes. But the first part of this interview sets up what happened during the September 2 attack. Alex Horton, welcome to FRESH AIR. I want you to describe the story that you broke on Friday.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 1, "text": "But watching it livestream?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Thanks for having me, Terry. The strike was the first one that the Pentagon undertook in its mission, directed from the White House, to stop drug trafficking and drug traffickers from bringing t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 2, "text": "So you served in the Army infantry in Iraq, and you're familiar with certain rules of engagement. And you know the difference between attacking survivors at sea versus on land. So tell us what the rules of engagement are in the sea with a shipwreck like this, where the survivors are clinging to the remains of the ship for their life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were watching, you know, live drone surveillance video of it. But once the smoke cleared, they saw there were two survivors. And Admiral Bradley, acting on his orders and guidance from Hegseth th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 3, "text": "Can you give us an example of what you mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. There's a lot of distinction between the two, and like you said, I'm a land guy. You know, the maritime domain is less familiar to me. But here's how I understand it and what law of war experts "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 4, "text": "Compare that to the rules at sea after a shipwreck.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. You know, one moment comes to mind, when I was, you know, with my platoon in Diyala Province in 2007. So this was, you know, the most violent year of the surge. We were fighting street to street"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 5, "text": "Was Secretary Hegseth's order ambiguous? Did the order need to be more specific?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a - there's a very stark line between these two, and it's much less forgiving for this type of environment. If a U.S. ship strikes a navy vessel and it goes down or it's basically a wreck that ca"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 6, "text": "Speaking of swashbockling orders, I want to play something Hegseth said to military leaders when he gathered military leaders from around the globe in Quantico, Virginia, on September 30.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We're still trying to understand the contours of that order, that verbal order. You know, the manner in which he gave it, was it a swashbuckling, swagger type of thing, as he is prone to do as the def"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 7, "text": "So, Alex, like, is Hegseth saying we're just ignoring the rules of engagement now because we decided to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We fight to win. We unleash overwhelming and punishing violence on the enemy. We also don't fight with stupid rules of engagement. We untie the hands of our war fighters to intimidate, demoralize, hun"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 8, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Alex Horton. He's a Washington Post National Security reporter. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, this is something that the Senate and the House armed services Committees are looking to entangle is any number of things to include, you know, what were the authorities taken and did they v"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Alex Horton, a Washington Post national security reporter. He was the lead reporter on the story he broke with his colleague Ellen Nakashima last Friday about the U.S. military strike on an alleged Venezuelan drug smuggling boat in early September. After nine of the 11 people on board were killed, two survivors were in the water, clinging to the wreckage. They were killed in a subsequent strike. According to Horton's reporting, the admiral who gave the command to kill the survivors was in compliance with Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth's order to kill all the people aboard. The order was issued before the attack. We recorded our interview yesterday morning. Later in the day, President Trump and Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth commented on the story in a cabinet meeting. Horton returned to FRESH AIR this morning so I could ask him about his reaction to what they said. Well, let's hear what Trump and Hegseth had to say at yesterday's cabinet meeting. Let's start with Hegseth. Here's his comment.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, this is something that the Senate and the House armed services Committees are looking to entangle is any number of things to include, you know, what were the authorities taken and did they v"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 10, "text": "OK. That was Pete Hegseth yesterday at a cabinet meeting with President Trump. So he attacked The Washington Post reporting. I'm assuming he's referring to the article that you were the lead reporter of last Friday about the strike. Has he singled out any facts that you reported in that investigative article?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did not personally see survivors, but I stand - 'cause the thing was on fire. It was exploding and fire and smoke. You can't see anything. You got digital. This is called the fog of war. This is wha"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 11, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As untrue?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 12, "text": "And do you stand by the fact that he did say, kill them all?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, the Pentagon and the White House have contended that Hegseth did not say in so many words to kill everyone on the boat before the first strike occurred. But everything else, they've essentia"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 13, "text": "Does it make sense to you that Hegseth would leave without seeing the final results of the strike because he has a busy job and needed to go to a meeting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. We don't know his exact verbiage, but that was his message to folks like Admiral Bradley."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, let's move on to what President Trump said at the cabinet meeting yesterday. So here's President Trump.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He is right that it's a - he has a busy job, and there's a lot to do. What he's talking about is what we reported, too, that everyone believed that the strike was a lethal success and they did the ori"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 15, "text": "So that was President Trump yesterday speaking at a cabinet meeting. So he said he hadn't gotten a lot of information. He's the commander-in-chief. Shouldn't he be, like, demanding a detailed briefing right afterwards? I mean, he's not a passive recipient of these things.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "As far as the attack is concerned, I did - you know, I still haven't gotten a lot of information 'cause I rely on Pete. But to me, it was an attack. It wasn't one strike, two strikes, three strikes. S"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 16, "text": "It's my understanding that the policy on survivors changed after the first attack on Venezuelan boats in early September. When did it change, and how did it change?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it really depends on how this was packaged for everyone. You know, when a mission like this happens, there's the after-action review. And a lot of times, it's a very short and succinct summary"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 17, "text": "My guest is Washington Post national security reporter Alex Horton. The interview we just heard was recorded this morning. We'll hear more of the interview we recorded yesterday with Horton after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, we don't know, and we're still trying to figure that out. You know, we reported in our first story that there was a greater emphasis in planning in strikes to account for the possibility of surviv"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest is Washington Post national security reporter Alex Horton. He broke the story last Friday about the September 2 U.S. strike on an alleged drug boat from Venezuela, in which two survivors in the water were targeted and killed in a subsequent strike. The story says that a special operations commander overseeing the mission ordered that second strike in order to comply with Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth's spoken order to kill everyone on board. Senate and House lawmakers from both sides of the aisle are now calling for reviews of the boat strike. Yesterday, Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth and President Donald Trump commented on The Post's story. Let's get back to the interview we recorded yesterday morning. So there are people in Congress, the military, legal experts, former JAGs thinking that this attack wasn't legal. And there's a debate between whether it was a war crime or murder, whether it's a war offense or a criminal offense. So how significant is that - the difference between those two?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, we don't know, and we're still trying to figure that out. You know, we reported in our first story that there was a greater emphasis in planning in strikes to account for the possibility of surviv"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 19, "text": "So Admiral Bradley is a former head of JSOC, the Joint Special Operations Command, whose work includes the military's most sensitive and dangerous missions. So you'd think that he would know what is illegal - an illegal order.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's pretty significant, and it has to be one or the other. It can't be both, really. Just because you use the military doesn't mean whoever you're attacking is a combatant or a lawful target. You hav"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 20, "text": "And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 21, "text": "You'd also think he'd know that you're not supposed to obey an illegal command.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 22, "text": "It sounds as if Hegseth might be trying to blame Bradley for what happened as opposed to taking any responsibility for it, while praising Bradley at the same time. Let me read the social media post that he wrote on Monday of this week. (Reading) Let's make one thing crystal clear. Admiral Mitch Bradley is an American hero, a true professional and has my 100% support. I stand by him and the combat decisions he's made on the September 2 mission and all others since. America is fortunate to have such men protecting us. When this Department of War says, we have the back of our warriors, we mean it. OK. So it's a very praiseworthy thing to say of Bradley, but it's also blaming him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "During that operation, he was operating in the position of joint special operations commander. Since then, he has been promoted to the four-star position of special operations commander, which is abov"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 23, "text": "Getting back to the two survivors of the first attack on a boat from Venezuela allegedly carrying narcotics, allegedly fentanyl, do you think that that puts the U.S. military at risk? Like, if we can kill two survivors against our own rules of engagement, are survivors of an attacked boat that is shipwrecked, an American boat - are they more likely to be killed, with the U.S. setting the example that it's OK? And I'm asking...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He stands behind him, but he wants to foot-stomp that Admiral Bradley was the one who took that second strike. And by the way, this is something we articulated pretty carefully and clearly in the stor"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 24, "text": "...You this both as a journalist but also as a former member of the military in Iraq.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 25, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Alex Horton. He's a Washington Post national security reporter. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I think it's a bit hypothetical. I mean, there's reasons why you conduct yourself in a professional manner in a war, and you do that not because it's the right thing. But, you know, the U.S."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Washington Post national security reporter Alex Horton. We're discussing his reporting regarding the U.S. military strike on a Caribbean boat in September from Venezuela, specifically how a second strike targeted two survivors clinging to the wreckage to comply with Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth's order to kill the entire crew. Our interview was recorded yesterday morning. So who might be liable for violating the law of armed conflict or liable for murder?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I think it's a bit hypothetical. I mean, there's reasons why you conduct yourself in a professional manner in a war, and you do that not because it's the right thing. But, you know, the U.S."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 27, "text": "And does it still get back to that the order was ambiguous? It didn't say if there were survivors after the shipwreck, shoot them, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's something that really needs to be unspooled. The fair and accurate answer is, I don't know. I can tell you what law of experts (ph) have sort of speculated on, but they still need more informat"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 28, "text": "You mean, like, when's this in global waters?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It could be. I mean, we do not know if that original strike had a contingency or planning on what to do in these kinds of operations. Sometimes it's detailed, but sometimes it's not as detailed as you"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 29, "text": "I mean, like, in international waters.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This was..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 30, "text": "This is what the six Democratic lawmakers warned about in their video - was it last week or two weeks ago - about the oath that members of the military take saying they are required to decline orders that are illegal?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, we didn't say where this was. You know, we have a decent idea. We said it was off the coast of Trinidad. But I'll tell you, I think where the strike likely occurred, it would make getting ba"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 31, "text": "Trump has threatened to recall Democratic Senator Mark Kelly to active duty in the military and then have him court martialed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, this certainly could fall under that. Like I said, I'm not the adjudicator. I will say the Department of Defense's manual has lines in there that says, you should not follow an order tha"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 32, "text": "And what he said was that you have to follow the rules. I mean, that was the gist of what he said.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, to put him on active duty to try him on military court, yes. To say he has incited the military, and he needs to come back and face discipline under military law."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 33, "text": "So do you think that these attacks on people who Trump is labeling as narcoterrorists is part of Trump's efforts to oust Venezuela's president Nicolas Maduro?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, that's right. I mean, the message they delivered was, you know, there is a responsibility for everyone to follow lawful orders, and when the time comes for an illegal order, to disobey it. And t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 34, "text": "They're carrying cocaine?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's hard to say what the connective tissue is between these missions and, like, the larger military buildup, you know, 'cause as I mentioned, like, 99.9% of the forces that are in the Carib"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 35, "text": "Yeah. Trump has accused Maduro of being the head of the Cartel de los Soles, which the State Department has designated as a terrorist organization. What do you know about that cartel?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They're carrying cocaine. Fentanyl precursors come from China. They go to Mexico, where fentanyl's produced, and then from Mexico, they go to the United States and other markets. Cocaine comes from tw"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 36, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Alex Horton. He's a Washington Post national security reporter. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's not a ton that's known about them. I mean, the origins of the group are people in the government who had some sort of, you know, kind of handshake, wink-wink deal that would engage in, you kno"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 37, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Washington Post national security reporter Alex Horton about the story he broke about the U.S. attack on a Venezuelan boat allegedly transporting narcotics. If you detect a shift in the sound quality, it's because our interview was recorded yesterday in a studio, but one question in this segment is from an update we recorded on Zoom this morning. Trump has made it clear that he's willing to use military force against Venezuela on land as well as sea in the name of the war on narcoterrorists. What can you tell us about Trump's threats to continue this war on land? We know there's already warships off the coast of Venezuela, but he's willing to use military force. Does that mean he wants to get us into war with Venezuela, and how can he do that without informing Congress? What can a commander-in-chief do without consent?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's not a ton that's known about them. I mean, the origins of the group are people in the government who had some sort of, you know, kind of handshake, wink-wink deal that would engage in, you kno"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 38, "text": "Is narcoterrorism possibly a pretext to justify his campaign against Maduro? And are there other reasons he wants Maduro out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, the commander-in-chief at this moment can carry on what he has justified as, you know, actions taken against a - an armed group of - and combatants. That's the way he's described some of these"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 39, "text": "So, one of President Trump's comments yesterday at the cabinet meeting was that if we have to attack on land, we would. And so how close are we to going to war with Venezuela?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I can't get into the president's head. But, you know, we do know if his stated goal is to and Hegseth's goal is to adversely impact the ability of drug traffickers to move product, Venezuela"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 40, "text": "So while we're talking about trying to, you know, basically get rid of a president that Trump doesn't like, Trump has pardoned a former president of Honduras. He was convicted last year of working for cartels to flood the U.S. with cocaine, of conspiring to possess destructive devices, including machine guns and taking bribes during his campaign from Joaquin Guzman, the former leader of the Sinaloa cartel in Mexico. He was known as El Chapo. He was sentenced to 45 years in prison in federal district court in Manhattan, and Trump just pardoned him. Like, I don't understand how he's going after allegedly carrying narcotics, allegedly narcoterrorist, allegedly carrying fentanyl, when it's probably not fentanyl, it's probably cocaine. And yet, somebody who was sentenced in the U.S. in Manhattan, he was sentenced to 45 years in prison.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think strikes in Venezuela are, you know, it's hard to say if it's becoming more or less likely as time goes on, and the diplomatic talks go the direction. But from his comments, he didn't make it c"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 41, "text": "Yeah. How do we square that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So how do we square that?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 42, "text": "Wow. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, when you said about probably not fentanyl, I mean, I would say what they're carrying is more likely marshmallows than fentanyl."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 43, "text": "All right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's how unlikely it's fentanyl."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 44, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, it's cocaine. You don't smuggle cherries out of Iowa, you smuggle corn, right?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 45, "text": "It's that obvious?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 46, "text": "I want to thank you so much for your reporting and for being with us today.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's that obvious. This is what they do. This is the region. So how do you square these two things that the message from Trump and the rest of the government is, we are at war with drug traffickers an"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 47, "text": "Alex Horton is a Washington Post national security reporter focused on the military. Our interview was recorded yesterday with an update we recorded today. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be George Clooney. He became famous at 34. Late enough, he says, that he learned how to live before he learned how to be famous. His new character, Jay Kelly, wasn't so lucky. He'll talk about playing a movie star who has the fame part down, but the father, partner, friend part - not so much. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I really appreciate it."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5630324", "date": "2025-12-03", "guest": "Alex Horton", "title": "Did the Trump administration commit a war crime in its attack on a Venezuelan boat?", "question_index": 48, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our managing producer is Sam Briger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi and Anna Bauman. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Our consulting visual producer is Hope Wilson. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I really appreciate it."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5633203", "date": "2025-12-05", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Remembering soul guitarist and music producer Steve Cropper", "question_index": 0, "text": "You know, what's really interesting about that is that you ended up playing mostly with Black singers and playing in integrated bands.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I grew up kind of on the \"Grand Ole Opry\" and the kind of \"Louisiana Hayride\" kind of stuff."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5633203", "date": "2025-12-05", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Remembering soul guitarist and music producer Steve Cropper", "question_index": 1, "text": "How did you get exposed to Black music after being used to \"Grand Ole Opry\" stuff?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5633203", "date": "2025-12-05", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Remembering soul guitarist and music producer Steve Cropper", "question_index": 2, "text": "When you started playing guitar, did you have a sense of where you could fit in musically into the kind of music that you liked most?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that was really the thing. When I got a chance to have my own radio and start turning the knobs, I found one night this - on WDIA - Black spiritual music. I'd never heard it before, and it just "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5633203", "date": "2025-12-05", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Remembering soul guitarist and music producer Steve Cropper", "question_index": 3, "text": "You had your first hit with a band called the Mar-Keys. And it wasn't long after that that you became affiliated with Stax Records. And you became the guitarist in the house rhythm section. You became a producer. You became a songwriter...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think so - definitely with spiritual, because it was a rhythm thing. It wasn't so much lead and all of that. I really wasn't all that interested in intricate kind of music from a classical sta"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5633203", "date": "2025-12-05", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Remembering soul guitarist and music producer Steve Cropper", "question_index": 4, "text": "...With Stax. Yeah, right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Floor sweeper."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5633203", "date": "2025-12-05", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Remembering soul guitarist and music producer Steve Cropper", "question_index": 5, "text": "How did you get affiliated with Stax?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Tape copier, an editor. Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5633203", "date": "2025-12-05", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Remembering soul guitarist and music producer Steve Cropper", "question_index": 6, "text": "He was the tenor player with the Mar-Keys?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it started - Charles Axton, the tenor player - and the funny story about Charles Axton..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5633203", "date": "2025-12-05", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Remembering soul guitarist and music producer Steve Cropper", "question_index": 7, "text": "Well, you, with the group Booker T. & the M.G.'s, had the hit of \"Green Onions,\" and I think this was a big hit, and it helped out Stax Records a lot. how did the four of you - Booker T., Al Jackson, Donald \"Duck\" Dunn and yourself - get to play together and become the house rhythm section?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that is a true story now. I may stretch it a little bit, but that's the actual truth. And we went out. His uncle, Jim Stewart, the owner of Stax Records, had a little studio in his garage in Memph"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5633203", "date": "2025-12-05", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Remembering soul guitarist and music producer Steve Cropper", "question_index": 8, "text": "Let me let me play some of \"Green Onions.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what it all stemmed from basically was there we were with all this great success, doing \"The Dick Clark Show\" and everything as the Mar-Keys and we had this big hit record last night, and it was"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5633203", "date": "2025-12-05", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Remembering soul guitarist and music producer Steve Cropper", "question_index": 9, "text": "And because we're only going to play an excerpt, I'm going to start this a little in because I want to get to your guitar solo in it", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5633203", "date": "2025-12-05", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Remembering soul guitarist and music producer Steve Cropper", "question_index": 10, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5633203", "date": "2025-12-05", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Remembering soul guitarist and music producer Steve Cropper", "question_index": 11, "text": "So this is \"Green Onions,\" Booker T. & the M.G.'s.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5633203", "date": "2025-12-05", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Remembering soul guitarist and music producer Steve Cropper", "question_index": 12, "text": "You co-wrote \"Dock Of The Bay\" with Otis Redding, and you produced the record as well, right?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's \"Green Onions,\" a hit by Booker T. & the M.G.'s, with Steve Cropper on guitar. We'll hear more of his 1990 interview with Terry Gross after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Le"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5633203", "date": "2025-12-05", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Remembering soul guitarist and music producer Steve Cropper", "question_index": 13, "text": "What was your collaboration with him like when it came to writing songs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Correct."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5633203", "date": "2025-12-05", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Remembering soul guitarist and music producer Steve Cropper", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, let's listen to the record. This is \"Dock Of The Bay.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, of course, we wrote a lot of songs together. The inception of \"Dock Of The Bay\" was really no different than any other one. Otis was one of those kind of guys who had a hundred ideas, and he alw"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5633203", "date": "2025-12-05", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Remembering soul guitarist and music producer Steve Cropper", "question_index": 15, "text": "I want to ask you about another record. And this is also a song you co-wrote. You co-wrote this one with Wilson Pickett, and it's \"Midnight hour.\" This was, I think, for the first session that you played with Wilson Pickett.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Sitting in the morning sun. I'll be sitting when the evening comes. Watching the ships roll in. And then I watch them roll away again. Yeah. I'm sitting on the dock of the bay, watching the "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5633203", "date": "2025-12-05", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Remembering soul guitarist and music producer Steve Cropper", "question_index": 16, "text": "Tell me about writing this song with him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, it was."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5633203", "date": "2025-12-05", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Remembering soul guitarist and music producer Steve Cropper", "question_index": 17, "text": "Well, let's hear it \"In The Midnight Hour.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's real simple. We knew that he was coming down, and, of course, my connection with the record shop, and I went up and found some stuff that he had sung on. Of course, he sang, you know, with "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5633203", "date": "2025-12-05", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Remembering soul guitarist and music producer Steve Cropper", "question_index": 18, "text": "That's Wilson Pickett \"In The Midnight Hour,\" co-written by my guest Steve Cropper, who's featured on guitar. You also did a lot of work playing behind Sam & Dave, and Sam & Dave were the inspiration for the Aykroyd and Belushi group, The Blues Brothers, and you played with them, as well. What did you think of The Blues Brothers when they got started - or when you got started or whatever.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I'm going to wait till the midnight hour. That's when my love comes tumbling down. I'm going to wait till the midnight hour. When there's no one else around. I'm going to take you, girl, and"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5633203", "date": "2025-12-05", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Remembering soul guitarist and music producer Steve Cropper", "question_index": 19, "text": "What'd you think of - did you think that it was a parody that was in bad taste at all? You know, like two white guys doing their parody of Black singers, two white guys who probably fantasize about themselves sometimes of being", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I'm going to wait till the midnight hour. That's when my love comes tumbling down. I'm going to wait till the midnight hour. When there's no one else around. I'm going to take you, girl, and"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5633203", "date": "2025-12-05", "guest": "Otis Redding", "title": "Remembering soul guitarist and music producer Steve Cropper", "question_index": 20, "text": "Black singers. But what was your take on it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I'm going to wait till the midnight hour. That's when my love comes tumbling down. I'm going to wait till the midnight hour. When there's no one else around. I'm going to take you, girl, and"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5633205", "date": "2025-12-05", "guest": "Tom Stoppard", "title": "Remembering playwright and screenwriter Tom Stoppard", "question_index": 0, "text": "Laurel and Hardy. Abbott and Costello.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The first thing I liked about them is that there were two of them. And the double act, you know, has a long and honorable comic tradition. And I can see why because they're fun to write. And these two"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5633205", "date": "2025-12-05", "guest": "Tom Stoppard", "title": "Remembering playwright and screenwriter Tom Stoppard", "question_index": 1, "text": "Well, you use a lot of wordplay in your work.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A little like that, yes. And the other thing about them was that, in the story which they've been dropped into, they have this sort of very strange predicament. When you look at Shakespeare's text, th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5633205", "date": "2025-12-05", "guest": "Tom Stoppard", "title": "Remembering playwright and screenwriter Tom Stoppard", "question_index": 2, "text": "And as a matter of fact, let me play a clip here of a scene in which Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are playing, like, word game tennis.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5633205", "date": "2025-12-05", "guest": "Tom Stoppard", "title": "Remembering playwright and screenwriter Tom Stoppard", "question_index": 3, "text": "You want to explain the way the game works?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5633205", "date": "2025-12-05", "guest": "Tom Stoppard", "title": "Remembering playwright and screenwriter Tom Stoppard", "question_index": 4, "text": "Do you think of yourself as having played word games in \"Rosencrantz & Guildenstern\" as elaborate as the games Rosencrantz and Guildenstern play with each other?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Rosencrantz) Rhetoric. Game and match."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5633205", "date": "2025-12-05", "guest": "Tom Stoppard", "title": "Remembering playwright and screenwriter Tom Stoppard", "question_index": 5, "text": "Now, one of the themes of your work is the difference between art and life, kind of comparing art and life. And both you and Shakespeare have used plays within plays. Do you think that's a good device for exploring the difference between art and life? Because, like, the framing play becomes reality, even though it's really theater, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What's happening is that they're these two people who are stuck there waiting for the next event to discuss and talk about. Between Shakespeare's scenes, they don't really have any purpose or role. An"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5633205", "date": "2025-12-05", "guest": "Tom Stoppard", "title": "Remembering playwright and screenwriter Tom Stoppard", "question_index": 6, "text": "Let's get into your background a little. You were born in Czechoslovakia, and your family fled because of the Nazis?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I don't know why, but there's something about that which clearly appeals to me because I've used it more than once, more than twice. There's something about writing about the relationship between"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5633205", "date": "2025-12-05", "guest": "Tom Stoppard", "title": "Remembering playwright and screenwriter Tom Stoppard", "question_index": 7, "text": "So women and children were given passage on the boats and the men stayed behind. So your father stayed behind?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I mean, in a sort of general phrase, the gathering war, you know? A lot of people left what looked like - what looked as though it might turn into a theater of war. And we went to Singapore, whic"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5633205", "date": "2025-12-05", "guest": "Tom Stoppard", "title": "Remembering playwright and screenwriter Tom Stoppard", "question_index": 8, "text": "Stoppard.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. And he died in Singapore. And after the war, when we were in India, my mother remarried an Englishman, whose name I now have."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5633205", "date": "2025-12-05", "guest": "Tom Stoppard", "title": "Remembering playwright and screenwriter Tom Stoppard", "question_index": 9, "text": "Do you have a lot of memories of being frightened a lot when you were a child and your family was fleeing Czechoslovakia and then Singapore?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5633205", "date": "2025-12-05", "guest": "Tom Stoppard", "title": "Remembering playwright and screenwriter Tom Stoppard", "question_index": 10, "text": "When you were writing the screen adaptation for \"Empire Of The Sun,\" did you identify with the story at all, you know, because you were...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I remember being driven to the boat in Singapore. And I had a sense that there was some kind of air raid. And I certainly remember a Japanese Zero airplane with its nose in the ground, just so"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5633205", "date": "2025-12-05", "guest": "Tom Stoppard", "title": "Remembering playwright and screenwriter Tom Stoppard", "question_index": 11, "text": "...In Singapore during wartime, and you and your parents got away on the ship?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5633205", "date": "2025-12-05", "guest": "Tom Stoppard", "title": "Remembering playwright and screenwriter Tom Stoppard", "question_index": 12, "text": "I want to thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, when I was asked to write that screenplay, they didn't know that my own childhood wasn't that different from young Jim's. Was he called Jim? Yes. But he was in Shanghai. But when I visited the l"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 0, "text": "So it was an era of purity and functionalism, a lot of glass and steel high-rises.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I came into architecture at the height of modernism. After the war, decoration was a sin. Purity, functionalism, all of that stuff. And..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 1, "text": "Let me ask you about fish. I mean, fish, as we all know, have - they have spines, but they're so flexible. Ad they can, you know, bend and curve. What was the parallel you saw between fish and what you wanted to do in your architecture?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And it became very cold and inhuman and lifeless. Probably some people yearned for bringing decoration back, and they tried it for a while. I went a different route. I thought it was possible w"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 2, "text": "So you were looking to find a way of making something very stable.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was interested in movement. And I loved the drawings of Hiroshige and Japanese woodcuts of carp. And I love the quality of them, and I always thought they were very architectural. I also saw a fish "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 3, "text": "That expressed movement. And you found it through the form of the fish. And how does that connect to the forms that you've used in recent architecture?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That expressed movement."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 4, "text": "But, you know, in some of your buildings, including the new Pritzker Pavilion in Chicago and the Disney Concert Hall and the Guggenheim Museum, those kinds of curving shapes, they're not made out of wood. I mean, they're made out of steel or - I mean, titanium. And how did you realize that that would be - how did you start working with titanium as a medium for something that would be really firm and stable, strong but also moldable and - not moldable. I guess it's more - I don't know. Are you molding it. Or are you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...That I used in a show, an exhibit, I did at the Walker Art Museum. And it still had this - that quality of movement when you looked back and looked around. And I made that out of a wooden frame and"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 5, "text": "How are you getting the shape?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Laughs) Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 6, "text": "Mm-hmm.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK, here's how you do it. I do maybe 50 models. They look - sometimes they look like crumpled paper, so people think I crumple up paper and that's how they get there. And I do - I analyze the shapes a"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 7, "text": "'Cause it's a reflective, so it can reflect the sky...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And usually, the wall is a different material than the roof. And I wanted - a long time ago, tried to make the buildings into one shape. I thought if I could make it one piece, that I would have a lot"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 8, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, reflects the sky. If the sky's gray, it reflects the gray sky."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 9, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it goes gray. In Bilbao that would have been difficult. And I found titanium by accident. that in a gray sky, it turns golden..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 10, "text": "I want to read you a list of descriptions of the Guggenheim Museum that you built in Bilbao, Spain, as written by journalists - a pile of improbably huge fish, fractured tin-foil flowers, a fantastic dream ship, all sails, full sweeping upstream, Marilyn Monroe's wind-assisted skirts, an exploded artichoke, heart vast hulls of a ship that used to loom over a shipbuilding town, a prehistoric beast advancing with leg and foot toward the water, an explosion in a sardine factory, a monstrous flower, a fairy-tale castle. What do you think?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And shines. And so I used it in Bilbao. It's very expensive. The reason I didn't use it here, it would have increased the budget by a lot of money. And since these shapes were not - it wasn't one w"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 11, "text": "You were born in Toronto.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Architect Frank Gehry speaking with Terry Gross in 2004. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2004 conversation with Frank Gehry. The globally famous and"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 12, "text": "And for four years you move with your family to a small mining town in Canada called Timmins.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 13, "text": "Yeah, where your father worked for the distributor of slot machines and pinball machines.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Timmins, Ontario."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 14, "text": "And, boy, old pinball machines were so great. I mean, they were so - they were kind of like billboards or neon signs or, like, things that would light up and all kinds of like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yup."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 15, "text": "...Pictures and stuff. Did you love the design of those pinball machines?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 16, "text": "So you don't think about it very much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were always in the basement somewhere in my house, and I used to play with them and help him fix them and stuff like that. Yeah. I guess so. You know, when you go through a childhood like that - "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 17, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Forget about it."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 18, "text": "Oh, wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But he was involved with the carnival business, in a way, and used to bring those kind of people home. And I met - as a kid, I met a lot of them. And there was a blind boxer, Black guy, that used to b"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 19, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...was that - the mix of people that I was exposed to..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 20, "text": "Well, one thing I think you have not forgotten about from that period, you've said that you were exposed to a lot of antisemitism in this small mining town.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...As a kid, which has helped me in life. I mean..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 21, "text": "And did that contribute to the fact that you changed your name when you became an architect from Goldberg to Gehry?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 22, "text": "Why was it so important to her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it was a factor and in allowing myself to be convinced by my ex-wife that it was the most important thing to do, I guess. I didn't like the idea of changing it."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 23, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We were going to have our first child, and there had been a lot of antisemitism I experienced, she experienced. And she said she didn't want to bring a kid into the world to go through that. The name "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 24, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...That sort of..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 25, "text": "But you wouldn't go back to Goldberg now. Too late, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Character - caricatured. And so - and I took a lot of heat for it. And, you know, I didn't want to do it. My father hated me for letting her do it. My mother went along with it. And after she did i"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 26, "text": "Well, you've made the Gehry name too famous", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm married to a Panamanian girl, Berta, who threatens to go back to it. She'd like to be Berta Goldberg, she says. But I doubt if we'll do it."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 27, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm married to a Panamanian girl, Berta, who threatens to go back to it. She'd like to be Berta Goldberg, she says. But I doubt if we'll do it."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 28, "text": "Now, your first building that really got a lot of attention and that ended up being pretty controversial was your own home. You had moved into a small, two-story cottage? Is that a fair word for it? And you kind of designed a new home around it. And if you look at it, like, in a photograph, you have this, like, two-story building, and then around that you have - there's sheet metal and plywood...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think my kids - my son Sam flirts with it 'cause he wants to be an architect. So he may just want to get rid of the Gehry name for a while."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 29, "text": "Corrugated metal. And then on the second story there's, like, chain-link fencing around it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Corrugated metal."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 30, "text": "And it almost looks more like an assemblage - you know, like an assemblage sculpture than architecture because there's so many - it's so mixed -media.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 31, "text": "And, like, the textures all seem to be kind of conflicting. And you're not really sure, what is the purpose of the chain-link fence on the second floor. Is there a purpose for it", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 32, "text": "? Is it just there as, like, another material to contrast with the other material?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 33, "text": "What was the purpose?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there was a purpose when I did it."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 34, "text": "Yeah. And with some pretty odd angles, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And so we put up the chain-link fence with the idea that it would be safe. It'd be like a safety place for him to play on the upstairs, outdoors of his room. And then once I started - committed myse"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 35, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah. Well, I started doing that."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 36, "text": "Do you still live in that house?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I had played with it because chain-link is the most despised material ever. People hate it, and yet they use it so prevalently all over the world. And I was trying to figure out, how could it be s"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 37, "text": "Still have the chain-link fence on the second floor?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 38, "text": "Even though there's no baby?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 39, "text": "When he got a little older.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And the kid climbed out - he climbed over the chain-link. It didn't work. He climbed over it."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 40, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, right away."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 41, "text": "That's some athletic baby you had there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He was up, over it and out."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 42, "text": "So do you still - what are your gut feelings now about chain-link?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". He was something."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 43, "text": "Oh, you're designing a new house for yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't use it very much, even though I've figured out how to use it. People sometimes ask me to use it, and I refuse. But I've done some things with it. I'm not against it. It's just not - I ha"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 44, "text": "Where?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, from scratch in..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 45, "text": "What's the most important thing you want that you don't have now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Venice, California. And I'm working on it now. So..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 46, "text": "That's nice. And will there be a kind of architectural design around the garden or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A garden. I bought a piece of land that'll give me a garden."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 47, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I'm doing a - it's a half-acre lot, and so I'm building several pavilions."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 48, "text": "So it'll be like two separate houses.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "More like the Philip Johnson house in New Canaan, where there's a living room, and then there's a separate room - a building for bedrooms and stuff."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 49, "text": "Why do you want that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 50, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd like to live in the garden..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 51, "text": "Yeah, I guess so. I guess so.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Or outdoors. You can do that in LA quite easily."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642574", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "Frank Gehry", "title": "Remembering world-renowned architect Frank Gehry", "question_index": 52, "text": "Well, thank you so much. Congratulations on the completion of the Pritzker Pavilion. And thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642590", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "The Mavericks", "title": "Remembering Raul Malo, lead singer and guitarist for The Mavericks", "question_index": 0, "text": "Raul Malo, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Foolish heart, you made me weep. Foolish heart, I'm yours to keep. You're the one that's still with me, foolish heart. Don't set me free. There was a time..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642590", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "The Mavericks", "title": "Remembering Raul Malo, lead singer and guitarist for The Mavericks", "question_index": 1, "text": "Some people, I imagine, might think it's incongruous for a Cuban American to be a country singer. Did it ever seem that way to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642590", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "The Mavericks", "title": "Remembering Raul Malo, lead singer and guitarist for The Mavericks", "question_index": 2, "text": "Now, what was your neighborhood like when you were growing up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. It still does sometimes. But, you know, I never gave it a second thought. I mean, it is what I love to do. And my parents, you know, certainly have supported me in doing so. And, you know, I gre"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642590", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "The Mavericks", "title": "Remembering Raul Malo, lead singer and guitarist for The Mavericks", "question_index": 3, "text": "So what was the club scene like in Miami when you started playing in bands?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a good neighborhood. You know, it's a Cuban immigrant neighborhood and not very rough, but hardworking people. Blue collar people working every day for a living, you know, just trying to stay i"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642590", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "The Mavericks", "title": "Remembering Raul Malo, lead singer and guitarist for The Mavericks", "question_index": 4, "text": "What do you mean original music clubs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was pretty wild, actually. You know, there wasn't a lot of country music, to say the least. I think we were the only country band actually playing in these clubs. They were original music clubs, wh"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642590", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "The Mavericks", "title": "Remembering Raul Malo, lead singer and guitarist for The Mavericks", "question_index": 5, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they were clubs that allowed the bands to come in and play their original music instead of..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642590", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "The Mavericks", "title": "Remembering Raul Malo, lead singer and guitarist for The Mavericks", "question_index": 6, "text": "Now, all the country people who you've mentioned, you know, Hank Williams, Patsy Cline, they're among the early country performers when country was still not dressed up in a lot of studio accoutrements.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, instead of bands coming in and doing, like, four sets of covers, you know, all night. So at the time, you know, we were allowed certain creative freedoms, you know, where you could basically"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642590", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "The Mavericks", "title": "Remembering Raul Malo, lead singer and guitarist for The Mavericks", "question_index": 7, "text": "Is that what you prefer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642590", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "The Mavericks", "title": "Remembering Raul Malo, lead singer and guitarist for The Mavericks", "question_index": 8, "text": "True enough. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, that's not only in country music. I mean, in pop music as well, you know, basically you have..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642590", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "The Mavericks", "title": "Remembering Raul Malo, lead singer and guitarist for The Mavericks", "question_index": 9, "text": "What year did you actually move to Nashville?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We have people now that, you know, you don't even have to be a good singer. You don't have to be a musician. You don't have to be anything, you know? You just got to be this little image with long hai"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642590", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "The Mavericks", "title": "Remembering Raul Malo, lead singer and guitarist for The Mavericks", "question_index": 10, "text": "Did you go into culture shock at all? Was it a very different place than what you were used to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I moved here - I'm trying to think. I'm going on three years that I've actually been living in Nashville."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642590", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "The Mavericks", "title": "Remembering Raul Malo, lead singer and guitarist for The Mavericks", "question_index": 11, "text": "Oh, really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "so I do miss a lot of that. You know, but I'm gone all the time. And I'm on the road. So you don't really have time to even think about it, you know, when you get home. You know, my parents just moved"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642590", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "The Mavericks", "title": "Remembering Raul Malo, lead singer and guitarist for The Mavericks", "question_index": 12, "text": "Now, you're talking about the different influences that you've drawn on and all the different kinds of music you listen to. On your new CD \"Music For All Occasions,\" you do a song that I know from my past", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, so that's a little bit of Miami moving up, you know, a bunch of Cubans moving up to Nashville. So I like that. You know, that's fun now."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642590", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "The Mavericks", "title": "Remembering Raul Malo, lead singer and guitarist for The Mavericks", "question_index": 13, "text": ". This is \"Something Stupid\" that Frank Sinatra - I mean, the song isn't stupid. The song is called \"Something Stupid.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, so that's a little bit of Miami moving up, you know, a bunch of Cubans moving up to Nashville. So I like that. You know, that's fun now."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642590", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "The Mavericks", "title": "Remembering Raul Malo, lead singer and guitarist for The Mavericks", "question_index": 14, "text": "And Frank and Nancy Sinatra recorded it back in 1967. It rose to the top of the charts.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642590", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "The Mavericks", "title": "Remembering Raul Malo, lead singer and guitarist for The Mavericks", "question_index": 15, "text": "You do a duet of this with Trisha Yearwood. What inspired you to record this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642590", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "The Mavericks", "title": "Remembering Raul Malo, lead singer and guitarist for The Mavericks", "question_index": 16, "text": "I like it, too. Before I play it, I just want to ask you one thing. Didn't you always think when Frank Sinatra and his daughter, Nancy, sang this together, I mean, don't the laws of God and man prohibit a father and daughter from singing a love duet like this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, you know, I don't know. It's just one of those songs that I grew up listening to. And we wanted to do a duet with Trisha. And, you know, we start going through all the different kinds of scenarios"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642590", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "The Mavericks", "title": "Remembering Raul Malo, lead singer and guitarist for The Mavericks", "question_index": 17, "text": "OK", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, but it's Frank Sinatra. The rules don't apply to him."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642590", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "The Mavericks", "title": "Remembering Raul Malo, lead singer and guitarist for The Mavericks", "question_index": 18, "text": ". So here...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, but it's Frank Sinatra. The rules don't apply to him."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642590", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "The Mavericks", "title": "Remembering Raul Malo, lead singer and guitarist for The Mavericks", "question_index": 19, "text": "So here's the Mavericks' recording of \"Something Stupid\" from their new album, \"Music For All Occasions,\" with my guest, singer Raul Malo.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He changes them, baby."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642590", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "The Mavericks", "title": "Remembering Raul Malo, lead singer and guitarist for The Mavericks", "question_index": 20, "text": "TRISHA", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He changes them, baby."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642590", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "The Mavericks", "title": "Remembering Raul Malo, lead singer and guitarist for The Mavericks", "question_index": 21, "text": "I know you had an earlier album, I believe, independently released in which your songs were - some of them were more political, is that right?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's Raul Malo and Trisha Yearwood from the Mavericks' CD \"Music For All Occasions.\" Raul Malo spoke with Terry Gross in 1995. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get bac"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642590", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "The Mavericks", "title": "Remembering Raul Malo, lead singer and guitarist for The Mavericks", "question_index": 22, "text": "Were you writing different kinds of songs, then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mm-hmm."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5642590", "date": "2025-12-12", "guest": "The Mavericks", "title": "Remembering Raul Malo, lead singer and guitarist for The Mavericks", "question_index": 23, "text": "Can I ask you for an example of a lyric that was very personal?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I wasn't writing different kinds of songs. Well, I guess, in a way, I was. I mean, you know, part of that whole - the whole - the feelings behind all those songs is that, you know, you have - you "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5647310", "date": "2025-12-17", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "'Vanity Fair' reporter gets an inside view from Susie Wiles, the woman behind Trump 2.0", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The most powerful person in the Trump administration, next to the president, is someone you may never have heard of or seen. That is, until yesterday, when a long article about her was published on the Vanity Fair website. And it surprised a lot of people because behind the scenes is where she typically wants to be. Now she's all over the news. She's Susie Wiles, President Donald Trump's White House chief of staff and the first woman ever to serve as a presidential chief of staff. The article was written by my guest, Vanity Fair writer Chris Whipple, who managed to do 11 interviews with her over the past year. He'll tell us about what she had to say about subjects ranging from why she says Trump has an alcoholic's personality, even though he's not a drinker, the deal she made with Trump that he'd end his revenge tour in 90 days - he didn't - her take on several members of the cabinet, including Vice President JD Vance, who she says has been a conspiracy theorist for 10 years, and how she justifies U.S. strikes on Venezuelan boats that have so far killed 87 people. Whipple's piece, titled \"Eye Of The Hurricane,\" will be published in the magazine's winter issue in January. Whipple is the author of the books \"Uncharted: How Trump Beat Biden, Harris, And The Odds In The Wildest Campaign In History\" and \"The Gatekeepers,\" about White House chiefs of staff. Before we hear the interview I recorded with Whipple yesterday morning, let's listen to a mix of clips from Trump and Wiles.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5647310", "date": "2025-12-17", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "'Vanity Fair' reporter gets an inside view from Susie Wiles, the woman behind Trump 2.0", "question_index": 1, "text": "So those clips of Susie Wiles are from her interview last week on the streaming show \"The Mom VIEW\" on YouTube. The Trump clips are from last June and then last week at his rally in Pennsylvania. Chris Whipple, welcome back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I think. I hope he does."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5647310", "date": "2025-12-17", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "'Vanity Fair' reporter gets an inside view from Susie Wiles, the woman behind Trump 2.0", "question_index": 2, "text": "Any reaction to what you just heard?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Great to be back."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5647310", "date": "2025-12-17", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "'Vanity Fair' reporter gets an inside view from Susie Wiles, the woman behind Trump 2.0", "question_index": 3, "text": "What is your reaction to him saying that she's the most powerful woman in the world and with one call could - what did he say? - demolish the country? I mean, what? I can't imagine how she would react to that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first of all, how rare is it to hear Susie Wiles' voice? I mean, it's just so unusual, and that's because she has this kind of under-the-radar role in the Trump White House. My other reaction is"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5647310", "date": "2025-12-17", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "'Vanity Fair' reporter gets an inside view from Susie Wiles, the woman behind Trump 2.0", "question_index": 4, "text": "She is a very behind-the-scenes person. How did you get access to her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's Trumpian, isn't it? I mean, it's the kind of thing that she is accustomed to hearing. It's part of this magic that she has with Trump. She takes this stuff in stride. I mean, any traditiona"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5647310", "date": "2025-12-17", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "'Vanity Fair' reporter gets an inside view from Susie Wiles, the woman behind Trump 2.0", "question_index": 5, "text": "On January 11, she told you that she was determined to show the world a new Trump. She said, I told Hakeem Jeffries, you will see a different Donald Trump when he gets there - to the White House. I haven't seen him throw anything. I've not seen him scream. I didn't see that really horrific behavior that people talk about and that I actually experienced years ago. She's seen it now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, every once in a while in a reporter's career, lightning strikes, and I really feel this was an example of that. It began way back in January and lasted for 11 months, right up until this wee"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5647310", "date": "2025-12-17", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "'Vanity Fair' reporter gets an inside view from Susie Wiles, the woman behind Trump 2.0", "question_index": 6, "text": "One of the things she told you is that she and Trump had an agreement that his revenge tour would be over in 90 days. And it's been considerably longer than that that he's in the White House. Tell us more about what she said about the revenge tour.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she's seen it now. And she saw it famously back in 2016, in the fall of that year, when at one point, Donald Trump called her to his golf club. At this point, she was working on his campaign on "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5647310", "date": "2025-12-17", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "'Vanity Fair' reporter gets an inside view from Susie Wiles, the woman behind Trump 2.0", "question_index": 7, "text": "So are you saying that the more she saw of him in his second term, the more she started following through on his actions and supporting his beliefs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I found this absolutely extraordinary, and it really is almost the arc of the Vanity Fair piece and the arc of the journey that I took with Susie Wiles from - it was Day 56 of the Trump presidency. I "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5647310", "date": "2025-12-17", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "'Vanity Fair' reporter gets an inside view from Susie Wiles, the woman behind Trump 2.0", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, she tells you she sees her job, you know, as fulfilling his mission and that the American people elected him, and her job is to help him achieve his agenda.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can't read her mind, Terry, but what I do find really fascinating is that these kinds of conversations that she seemed to be having early on with Trump - for example, on Day 1, she argued with him t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5647310", "date": "2025-12-17", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "'Vanity Fair' reporter gets an inside view from Susie Wiles, the woman behind Trump 2.0", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Vanity Fair writer Chris Whipple. His two-part series on White House Chief of Staff Susie Wiles is available on Vanity Fair's website and will be on the newsstand next month. We'll be back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, she does. She does say that. But at the same time, she - you know, she loves to quote James A. Baker III, who was Ronald Reagan's quintessential White House chief. And nobody was better than Bak"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5647310", "date": "2025-12-17", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "'Vanity Fair' reporter gets an inside view from Susie Wiles, the woman behind Trump 2.0", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're talking to Vanity Fair writer Chris Whipple. He interviewed White House Chief of Staff Susie Wiles multiple times in the last year and has a new two-part portrait of her that's on Vanity Fair's website and will be in the magazine next month. The article is titled \"Eye Of The Hurricane.\" Our interview was recorded yesterday. She helped him pick a Cabinet of hard-liners, you write. Does she see herself as a hard-liner?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, she does. She does say that. But at the same time, she - you know, she loves to quote James A. Baker III, who was Ronald Reagan's quintessential White House chief. And nobody was better than Bak"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5647310", "date": "2025-12-17", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "'Vanity Fair' reporter gets an inside view from Susie Wiles, the woman behind Trump 2.0", "question_index": 11, "text": "You mentioned Vance. She describes Vance as having been a conspiracy theorist for a decade. Was she referring to in the past or when he was chosen as Trump's running mate?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think she does. I don't think she's an ideologue. I think she would regard herself as a kind of Jim Baker-style pragmatist trying again to facilitate the president's vision, execute his agenda"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5647310", "date": "2025-12-17", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "'Vanity Fair' reporter gets an inside view from Susie Wiles, the woman behind Trump 2.0", "question_index": 12, "text": "So does she have faith in him as a conspiracy theorist?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no. I think, to this day, she considers him a real conspiracy theorist. And she's really talking about all the way back to 2016, that for a decade, Vance has been that way, and she says he'd be th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5647310", "date": "2025-12-17", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "'Vanity Fair' reporter gets an inside view from Susie Wiles, the woman behind Trump 2.0", "question_index": 13, "text": "Also, she calls Russell Vought, the architect of Project 2025 and current director of the Office of Management and Budget - she calls him a right-wing zealot. Did you say any more about why she calls him that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She does have faith in JD Vance. She thinks he's doing a terrific job. She's a JD Vance fan. She's also a Rubio fan. But she makes this fascinating distinction between the two of them, because I asked"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5647310", "date": "2025-12-17", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "'Vanity Fair' reporter gets an inside view from Susie Wiles, the woman behind Trump 2.0", "question_index": 14, "text": "She helped Trump choose the Cabinet members. So that would make me think she was a hard-liner at the very beginning of his presidency.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, a right-wing, absolute zealot, as a matter of fact, I think, was the exact quote. You know what? That's not necessarily an insult in the Trump White House. I think that she did have her differen"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5647310", "date": "2025-12-17", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "'Vanity Fair' reporter gets an inside view from Susie Wiles, the woman behind Trump 2.0", "question_index": 15, "text": "So she sees herself as Trump's enabler in that respect and occasionally trying to put on the brakes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think what she believed in above all, Terry, was she wanted Trump to be able to have the people he wanted, the team that he wanted. And I think she would also subscribe to the view among a lot of th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5647310", "date": "2025-12-17", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "'Vanity Fair' reporter gets an inside view from Susie Wiles, the woman behind Trump 2.0", "question_index": 16, "text": "We have to take another break here, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Vanity Fair writer Chris Whipple. His two-part series on White House Chief of Staff Susie Wiles is titled \"Eye Of The Hurricane.\" It's available on Vanity Fair's website and will be on newsstands next month. We'll be back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she would fiercely contest that. She would argue with you about whether she's an \"enabler,\" quote-unquote. And I'll tell you, I interviewed Leon Panetta, whom I've known for a long time. He was "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5647310", "date": "2025-12-17", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "'Vanity Fair' reporter gets an inside view from Susie Wiles, the woman behind Trump 2.0", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview that I recorded yesterday with Vanity Fair writer Chris Whipple. He interviewed White House Chief of Staff Susie Wiles multiple times in the last year and now has a two-part portrait of her that's on Vanity Fair's website and will be in the magazine next month. It's titled \"Eye Of The Hurricane.\" Whipple is also the author of the 2025 book \"Uncharted: How Trump Beat Biden, Harris, And The Odds In The Wildest Campaign In History.\" His other books include \"The Gatekeepers,\" about White House chiefs of staff. You spoke to Wiles about the U.S. strikes against boats from Venezuela. What does she have to say about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she would fiercely contest that. She would argue with you about whether she's an \"enabler,\" quote-unquote. And I'll tell you, I interviewed Leon Panetta, whom I've known for a long time. He was "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5647310", "date": "2025-12-17", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "'Vanity Fair' reporter gets an inside view from Susie Wiles, the woman behind Trump 2.0", "question_index": 18, "text": "When she says, until Maduro cries uncle, it's ambiguous to me whether she means until he gives in and does more to stop the drug trade or if it means until he gives up the presidency and is, you know, replaced.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she is all for it. She is in complete support of the president's policy. She insists that these boats - because the CIA can do remarkable things, she insists that these are drug dealers on these"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5647310", "date": "2025-12-17", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "'Vanity Fair' reporter gets an inside view from Susie Wiles, the woman behind Trump 2.0", "question_index": 19, "text": "And one of the ways she justifies what's being done is that the boats that we fire missiles at are in international waters. Therefore, it's not a war crime. But does it matter if you're shooting people who are criminals? That's not grounds for execution and might still be a war crime, even if it's in international waters, where no country's individual laws apply.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I suppose you could argue that that's what she meant. That's not the way I took it. It seemed to me - it certainly sounded to me as though they really feel that they could force Maduro out."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5647310", "date": "2025-12-17", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "'Vanity Fair' reporter gets an inside view from Susie Wiles, the woman behind Trump 2.0", "question_index": 20, "text": "Susie Wiles described Trump as having an alcoholic's personality. And she grew up with her father, Pat Summerall, who had become famous because he was a kicker with the New York Giants and then became known as the voice of the NFL as a broadcaster. So she is familiar with what an alcoholic's personality is, if there is any one singular personality. What did she mean when she described Trump as having an alcoholic's personality? Because he's always said he never even had a drink.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She says a couple of things, and they're not always consistent. But one of the things she said was that we can strike - I mean, I'm paraphrasing now - but the U.S. is entitled to strike even within te"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5647310", "date": "2025-12-17", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "'Vanity Fair' reporter gets an inside view from Susie Wiles, the woman behind Trump 2.0", "question_index": 21, "text": "So Trump was a big admirer of Pat Summerall, Wiles' father. And the first time Trump met Susie Wiles, he said to her, I judge people by their genes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's got nothing to do with drinking. What she really means by that is this notion, this grandiose notion, that he can do anything. Nothing is beyond his ability to achieve. It's a larger-than-l"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5647310", "date": "2025-12-17", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "'Vanity Fair' reporter gets an inside view from Susie Wiles, the woman behind Trump 2.0", "question_index": 22, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Vanity Fair writer Chris Whipple. His two-part series on White House Chief of Staff Susie Wiles is available on Vanity Fair's website and will be on the newsstand next month. We'll be back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. I mean, Susie Wiles told me if she's heard it once, she's heard it 100 times. Trump judges people by their genes - G-E-N-E-S. You know, look, I don't think it's a coincidence that Bobby Ke"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5647310", "date": "2025-12-17", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "'Vanity Fair' reporter gets an inside view from Susie Wiles, the woman behind Trump 2.0", "question_index": 23, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're talking to Vanity Fair writer Chris Whipple. He interviewed White House Chief of Staff Susie Wiles multiple times in the last year and has a new two-part portrait of her that's on Vanity Fair's website and will be in the magazine next month. The article is titled \"Eye Of The Hurricane.\" Our interview was recorded yesterday. So what does she think about Elon Musk and how he handled DOGE?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. I mean, Susie Wiles told me if she's heard it once, she's heard it 100 times. Trump judges people by their genes - G-E-N-E-S. You know, look, I don't think it's a coincidence that Bobby Ke"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5647310", "date": "2025-12-17", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "'Vanity Fair' reporter gets an inside view from Susie Wiles, the woman behind Trump 2.0", "question_index": 24, "text": "Let's talk about the Epstein files. Tell us what you learned about what happened in the inner circle when they did want to release it and when they didn't want to release it. The general outline of this has been, you know, revealed, but you may know stuff through Susie Wiles that others haven't reported yet.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wiles told me that she was initially distraught, as she put it, when she learned that Elon Musk, as part of this kind of scorched-earth cost-cutting campaign known as DOGE, the Department of Governmen"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5647310", "date": "2025-12-17", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "'Vanity Fair' reporter gets an inside view from Susie Wiles, the woman behind Trump 2.0", "question_index": 25, "text": "So tell us about the trip that two high-powered people in the Trump administration took to interview Ghislaine Maxwell, the close associate of Epstein who enabled his rendezvous with young women and seemed to be part of the sex trafficking ring.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this is absolutely fascinating. Susie Wiles told me she has read the Epstein file, quote-unquote, as she calls it, and she says Trump is in it. He's all over it, but not doing anything awful, as"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5647310", "date": "2025-12-17", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "'Vanity Fair' reporter gets an inside view from Susie Wiles, the woman behind Trump 2.0", "question_index": 26, "text": "Or she's not telling you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So Ghislaine Maxwell was Jeffrey Epstein's partner in crime, as it were. She was accused of procuring these underage women and sex trafficking them for Epstein. She was convicted in 2021 and sen"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5647310", "date": "2025-12-17", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "'Vanity Fair' reporter gets an inside view from Susie Wiles, the woman behind Trump 2.0", "question_index": 27, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Vanity Fair writer Chris Whipple. His two-part series on White House Chief of Staff Susie Wiles is available on Vanity Fair's website and will be on the newsstand next month. We'll be back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Or she's not telling me. Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5647310", "date": "2025-12-17", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "'Vanity Fair' reporter gets an inside view from Susie Wiles, the woman behind Trump 2.0", "question_index": 28, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're talking to Vanity Fair writer Chris Whipple. He interviewed White House Chief of Staff Susie Wiles multiple times in the last year and has a new two-part portrait of her that's on Vanity Fair's website and will be in the magazine next month. The article is titled \"Eye Of The Hurricane.\" Our interview was recorded yesterday. Just to set the scene for a little bit, like, when you interviewed her, there was a big hole where the East Wing of the White House used to be. And you also mentioned that there's a giant screen with a constant flow of Trump's Truth Social posts, his social media posts on his own platform. This was in her office?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Or she's not telling me. Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5647310", "date": "2025-12-17", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "'Vanity Fair' reporter gets an inside view from Susie Wiles, the woman behind Trump 2.0", "question_index": 29, "text": "Is that for staffers who are trying to keep him in check with his social media posts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I met Wiles. She was in the Oval Office when I arrived. She excused herself and met me in her office, and we had lunch from the White House mess and talked about all kinds of things, including the "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5647310", "date": "2025-12-17", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "'Vanity Fair' reporter gets an inside view from Susie Wiles, the woman behind Trump 2.0", "question_index": 30, "text": "Is she concerned about how his popularity is dropping?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I didn't ask her specifically about that. I think it's - look, my guess is it's a little bit like having just a monitor of what the president is up to."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5647310", "date": "2025-12-17", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "'Vanity Fair' reporter gets an inside view from Susie Wiles, the woman behind Trump 2.0", "question_index": 31, "text": "Did she tell you anything about her perceptions of Trump's physical health, his mental health or his seemingly erratic behavior?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She would tell you that she doesn't care about approval ratings. Whether you believe that or not is up to you. But she is emphatic about the notion that approval ratings change rapidly. The only appro"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5647310", "date": "2025-12-17", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "'Vanity Fair' reporter gets an inside view from Susie Wiles, the woman behind Trump 2.0", "question_index": 32, "text": "And what about his cognitive or mental health?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did talk to her about all of the above. Some of it was off the record. On the record, she insists that he is fine. She says, my health is good. His health is great. I should be so lucky, in effect. "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5647310", "date": "2025-12-17", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "'Vanity Fair' reporter gets an inside view from Susie Wiles, the woman behind Trump 2.0", "question_index": 33, "text": "So what was your final impression of Susie Wiles?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Again, Susie Wiles would have you believe that Trump is cognitively fine. I never got any indication from her that she felt any differently."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5647310", "date": "2025-12-17", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "'Vanity Fair' reporter gets an inside view from Susie Wiles, the woman behind Trump 2.0", "question_index": 34, "text": "Chris Whipple, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I just think it's been fascinating because Trump, famously or infamously, went through four White House chiefs of staff in his first term - Reince Priebus, John Kelly and all the others. And Susie Wil"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5647310", "date": "2025-12-17", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "'Vanity Fair' reporter gets an inside view from Susie Wiles, the woman behind Trump 2.0", "question_index": 35, "text": "Vanity Fair writer Chris Whipple's profile of White House Chief of Staff Susie Wiles, titled \"Eye Of The Hurricane,\" was published yesterday on Vanity Fair's website and will be in the winter issue next month. While we were recording our interview yesterday morning, Wiles responded to Whipple's article, writing this on X, formerly Twitter. Quote, \"the article published early this morning is a disingenuously framed hit piece on me and the finest president, White House staff and Cabinet in history. Significant context was disregarded, and much of what I and others said about the team and the president was left out of the story. I assume, after reading it, that this was done to paint an overwhelmingly chaotic and negative narrative about the president and our team. The truth is, the Trump White House has already accomplished more in 11 months than any other president has accomplished in eight years. And that is due to the unmatched leadership and vision of President Trump, for whom I have been honored to work for the better part of a decade. None of us will stop our relentless pursuit of making America great again,\" unquote. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, Lucy Liu joins us to talk about \"Rosemead,\" in which Liu stars as a terminally ill woman grappling with her teenage son's escalating mental health crisis and the impossible choices she faces to protect him. It's based on a true story. She'll talk about the movie and her decades-long career. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My pleasure. Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5647310", "date": "2025-12-17", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "'Vanity Fair' reporter gets an inside view from Susie Wiles, the woman behind Trump 2.0", "question_index": 36, "text": "To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at @npfreshair. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with assistance today from Diana Martinez. Our managing producer is Sam Briger. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez-Wisler. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My pleasure. Thanks for having me."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest is Will Arnett. He co-wrote and stars in the new movie \"Is This Thing On?\" He was one of the stars of the series \"Arrested Development,\" played the title role in the animated satirical series for adults \"BoJack Horseman\" and was Batman in the animated \"Lego Batman\" series. He also co-hosts the podcast \"SmartLess\" with his longtime friends Jason Bateman, who also starred in \"Arrested Development,\" and Sean Hayes, who has a small part in Arnett's new film. Another longtime friend of Arnett's, Bradley Cooper, directed the new film and plays Arnett's self-absorbed best friend. The story is adapted from the true story of the British comic John Bishop. The film's title - \"Is This Thing On?\" - has a double meaning. It's what a lot of people say when they first get to a microphone. It also refers to whether Will Arnett's character's marriage is on or off. The movie is a hybrid of comedy and drama, focused on the anger and resentments that can undermine a marriage and how your sense of identity can change if you're lucky enough to discover work that is meaningful to you. Arnett plays a middle-aged father of two whose marriage has fallen apart. He and his wife, played by Laura Dern, are separated, and he's feeling lonely and miserable. One evening, while aimlessly walking down a Manhattan street, he sees a restaurant with a comedy club downstairs. Admission requires a $15 cover charge, but if you sign up to perform, the cover charge is waived. So he signs up because he doesn't have the cash. When his name is called and he gets on stage, he has no clue what to do. He freezes for a while and then starts talking about the current state of his life.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Will Arnett, welcome back to FRESH AIR. Thank you for coming today. And that scene is so good. It's so much fun to watch you feel so uncomfortable. And you're actually very funny, even though you're totally insecure and unprepared to be doing stand-up at that point in your story. So I know in preparation, you went to comedy club open-mic nights. Did you stay in the audience or perform?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Alex Novak) That was probably the biggest clue."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 2, "text": "Why didn't people recognize you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I performed. I went to the Comedy Cellar almost every night for about six weeks and performed under the name of Alex Novak kind of in an attempt to understand what it was like, A, to do stand-up b"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 3, "text": "Right. Not again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". You know what I mean?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 4, "text": "So did you try to be good or try to be stumbly?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 5, "text": "You know, the kind of story this is about two people who are dissatisfied with their lives at the moment and are, like, looking for a new sense of identity, which they feel they're lacking - why did you want to, like, tell the story from a more middle-aged point of view? And I know it's based on a real comic and, you know, a British comic, who I think is well known in England, but not here. John Bishop is his name. What appealed to you about the idea of a middle-aged couple looking to, like, find new identities and find some satisfaction in their work?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I tried to be sensitive to the material. So I was using sets that we had written for the film. So I'd go out and I'd do the first set, and then during the day, I'd be at home a couple blocks awa"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 6, "text": "There's a scene - and I don't think I'm giving too much away here - when they're trying to stay together or get back together, where your character asks his wife. He said, like, I know this about couple therapy, that, like, one of the standard questions is tell me something about myself that you hate about me. And I think, like, that's the kind of thing that could really go bad. I can imagine that becoming a real nightmare. I can also see a bit of, like, self-reflection being the result of that and self-knowledge that you weren't aware of before. I'm wondering if you've ever tried that approach, and how did it go?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "First of all, when I met John Bishop and he told me the story of how he became a stand-up - and, you know, he is a very successful stand-up in the U.K. He's a really funny guy. He's a really funny sta"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 7, "text": "I'd like to offer an example of that from having heard you talk about this on \"SmartLess,\" your podcast with Sean Hayes and Jason Bateman. And Bradley Cooper was the guest on this episode. And of course, Bradley Cooper directed your new film, \"Is This Thing On?\" So Bradley Cooper had been talking about how he really admired how angry some of your jokes were, that you would joke with people and say things that, you know, sounded angry in general or angry at them. But you were so funny and you knew these people so well that it was just, like, great fun. So he figured, OK, I'm going to fit in by doing something similar, except it didn't come off that way. It just came off as, like, really rude", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that there is - from my own life, at this stage, I'm much more willing to be honest about where I am. And certainly, Bradley and I, this is something that we talked about, which is it's really"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 8, "text": ". And so what I'd like to do is play a clip from that episode of \"SmartLess\" and hear what Bradley Cooper had to say. And then I want to ask you your perspective on it, OK?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that there is - from my own life, at this stage, I'm much more willing to be honest about where I am. And certainly, Bradley and I, this is something that we talked about, which is it's really"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 9, "text": "OK. Here it is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "OK."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 10, "text": "OK, so that was Bradley Cooper on the podcast \"SmartLess,\" which Will Arnett cohosts with Sean Hayes and Jason Bateman. Were you surprised he told that story? And I really want to hear your perspective on it. And I'm curious, like, what made you think that it would go OK and be helpful? Because there's the flip side of that coin. It could go really terribly. And he could just be very resentful of you and angry at you and just kind of dig in deeper in defiance.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do remember that, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 11, "text": "I mean, it saved his life. But you don't know the outcome when you go into it. So yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 12, "text": "My guest is Will Arnett. He stars in the new film \"Is This Thing On?\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's funny. I mean, I don't know if it saved his life. First of all, he did it all. I didn't save his life. I did not know he was going to bring it up, of course. And I was surprised. But I'm al"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Will Arnett. He cowrote and stars in the new movie \"Is This Thing On?\" It's directed and costars his longtime friend, Bradley Cooper. Will Arnett also starred in \"Arrested Development,\" \"BoJack Horseman\" and \"The Lego Batman Movie.\" Your voice, I don't think it's just me, the way I hear it. Your voice has gotten deeper over the years. Am I right about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's funny. I mean, I don't know if it saved his life. First of all, he did it all. I didn't save his life. I did not know he was going to bring it up, of course. And I was surprised. But I'm al"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Oh, my voice has completely changed. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, probably. I think. Has yours?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 15, "text": "I used to talk more...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, I realized the other..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 16, "text": "I was like an octave higher, I think.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I listened..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 17, "text": "No, no. In the past it was, when I started.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Really? You think it's gotten higher?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 18, "text": "Were you a smoker?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah, yeah. Because I noticed it with Howard Stern, you know, who I've known for a long time. And I listened to some old clips. I'm like, Howard's voice, yeah, I think that that's what happens. Bu"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 19, "text": "The tobacco industry.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Who do you work for, Terry?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 20, "text": "So is how you're cast differently with the lower voice?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Who do you work for, Terry?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 21, "text": "I would not.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, when I was - I think I always had kind of a gravelly or whatever you want to call it, sandpapery. Some people might call it annoying voice. I don't know, Terry."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 22, "text": "I think your voice probably helped you get all the voiceover work that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "it was because of my voice. So it took a while to kind of grow, I think, grow into it a little bit."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 23, "text": "...That was basically the way you made a living for several years. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Yeah. And so you were so funny with Conan O'Brien on his TBS show. And, you know, you're both so funny. So I want to play a clip from that show, and that goes back a few years to 2021. And you were talking about your voiceover work, and then you demonstrated some of your voices. So OK. And we'll hear Andy Richter, Conan's sidekick on that show, say a few words during the clip. So here's you and Conan O'Brien in 2021.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 25, "text": "That's so great. And, like, the first one we heard was for GMC trucks. And you've done a lot, or you did a lot of voiceovers for them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. I do not know, and I don't care as long as the check clears. OK. So let's do it."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 26, "text": "And, you know, it's done in the style of, like, a rugged man who likes driving over tough terrain and wants a vehicle that can handle it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 27, "text": "So you have the voice for that, but do you ever feel like that kind of man?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 28, "text": "That long?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It's not necessarily how I see myself, but, yeah, I still work with - I still do the - I'm the voice of GMC trucks, and it's something I'm really proud of. It's been a long time. I've been doing the"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 29, "text": "I never realized that was you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I've been the voice of GMC trucks since - actually, this is the anniversary month, December of 1998. And..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 30, "text": "Changed from doing those commercials", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah. Well, because my voice changed and..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 31, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah. Well, because my voice changed and..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 32, "text": "You don't have to advertise them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Maybe. But I do - it is something that - yeah. I - there's something that I - first of all, I love working with the brand, and they are great trucks. I mean, look, they're - Terry, I - they're profess"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 33, "text": "Yeah. Does it hurt your throat to do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They are professional-grade."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 34, "text": "My guest is Will Arnett. He co-wrote and stars in the new film \"Is This Thing on?\" We'll continue the interview, and our TV critic David Bianculli will look back on the year in TV after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. The only time that it really gets - got strained was - in that way where it didn't hurt, but I had to kind of be careful was when I was doing the LEGO animated films. And we did two \"LEGO\" films a"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 35, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Will Arnett. He co-wrote and stars in the new film \"Is This Thing On?\" which was directed by his longtime friend, Bradley Cooper, who also co-stars in the film. Arnett is best known for his starring roles in \"Arrested Development,\" \"BoJack Horseman\" and \"The Lego Batman Movie.\" He also co-hosts the comedy podcast \"SmartLess\" with his friends Jason Bateman, who also starred in \"Arrested Development,\" and Sean Hayes, who has a small part in \"Is This Thing On?\" When we left off, we were talking about his voice-over work. In addition to \"BoJack\" and \"Lego Batman,\" he's done the voices of characters in \"Monsters Vs. Aliens,\" as well as voice-overs for countless ads. How about your voice on \"BoJack Horseman,\" where you play - this is a world of showbiz with animals and birds portraying the characters. And you're a horse who, when the series starts, is, like, a washed-up actor who was briefly famous for his role - what sounds like a pretty bad sitcom. And, you know, he sits at home in the first episode watching videos of his old show. And he's bitter. He drinks too much. And it's such a funny series, like, satirizing everybody in show business - the agents, the directors, the actors - and all of their insecurities. Did you do something with your voice for that character?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. The only time that it really gets - got strained was - in that way where it didn't hurt, but I had to kind of be careful was when I was doing the LEGO animated films. And we did two \"LEGO\" films a"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 36, "text": "And you wanted BoJack to sound more human, probably, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Funny."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 37, "text": "'Cause he's already not human, so you have to humanize him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 38, "text": "Did parts of BoJack's life remind you of your own when you were at a low point?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. That's exactly right. There's enough going on with the fact that he's a horse and that it's animated. So I think it was important to just try to - the way he spoke to be much more naturalistic."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 39, "text": "Sure. We always do that when we project a character's life...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. And it's funny. That's a question I get all the time. There was - there were times when people would - I remember, like, there's, like, photos of my house went online. And people would say, like, "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 40, "text": "...Onto the actor who's portraying that. And I do that maybe too much when I interview actors, you know, 'cause I always want to kind of connect the life and the work to see what created the sensibility that we love in the performer. And, you know, I think I probably hit a lot of wrong notes in trying to do that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's insane."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 41, "text": "I've heard of that show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no, it's not wrong. I think that that's natural. But, I mean, that's the work, right? Like, that's the job, is to try to figure out, certainly for - as a performer, you are trying to find moment"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 42, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 43, "text": "Because it was more absurdist.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so I played a character called Gob, Gob Bluth. He's a failed delusionist. And he's very, again, like, as I said, untethered, and he doesn't know how to live in this world that we live in. And it's"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 44, "text": "It's more absurdist than BoJack.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 45, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, obviously, it's about an actor, too."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 46, "text": "Yeah, exactly. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And also, BoJack was an actor and..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 47, "text": "\"Arrested Development\" was, like, your big breakthrough, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 48, "text": "Yeah. How did it change your life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A hundred percent. A hundred percent. Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 49, "text": "In every way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "How long is this program? I'm looking at the clock."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 50, "text": "So when you got the script - however much you got for \"Arrested Development\" before the audition - did you have any sense of how to play the character? It's such a quirky way that you play him. And, you know, he's kind of, like, lost in his own world. He uses his, like, little magic tricks in some totally inappropriate ways. Like, this is not the time for you to, like, barge in and do a trick.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Every possible way, yeah. I mean, that was 2003, and I'd been living in New York for about 13 years at that point. And leading up to \"Arrested,\" the few years leading up, I'd had a - I'd done a bunch "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 51, "text": "And so, you know, your performance, the way, like, you shaped the words on the page and embodied it physically just being given a script, it's probably hard to do that without all the other actors there and without really understanding how unusual a series it was and how off-kilter the comedy was.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 52, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah. I'll take it a step further. I didn't even have the benefit of reading the full script. I was given sort of a slight character breakdown, I suppose, that didn't really say how he behaved. "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 53, "text": "My guest is Will Arnett. He stars in the new film \"Is This Thing On?\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Goes, incredible. I'm having an incredible year, right? It says so much. It's clearly somebody who is, you know, covering up for a lot of deep pain. And I just got it, and that was it. It was that "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 54, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Will Arnett. He co-wrote and stars in the new movie \"Is This Thing On?\" Let's talk about your formative years. Your father, James Arnett or Jim Arnett - I don't know which...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Goes, incredible. I'm having an incredible year, right? It says so much. It's clearly somebody who is, you know, covering up for a lot of deep pain. And I just got it, and that was it. It was that "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 55, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 56, "text": "So - OK. So he was a graduate at Harvard, and he was for a few years president and CEO of Molson breweries. So when you - I know a lot of people, they look at their parents' lives and they think, I want a different life. And your life is very different. You're both very successful, but you went in an opposite direction. Not corporate, not law, and it's a more artistic world. Did you feel like he led an interesting life but you wanted a different life, or did you see his life as - it must be uncomfortable to be asked this question when your father's alive. So I realize - I don't want you to", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Both."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 57, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Both."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 58, "text": "I don't want to ruin your relationship with your father.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 59, "text": "Yeah. You'll ruin it yourself...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no. You - no. I'll do that."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 60, "text": "...Or you'll ask - answer the question?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'll ruin it myself."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 61, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't need any help. No."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 62, "text": "You went to a prep boarding school, and you were expelled for being a troublemaker. What kind of trouble did you get into?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. My dad - you know, I have a lot of respect for what my dad did. My dad came from - both his parents were teachers. And his dad, at one point, was a teacher in a one-room schoolhouse on - you know,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 63, "text": "What were you smoking?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A lot of it was - Terry, I hate - I'm loath to admit, a lot of it was smoking related."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 64, "text": "Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Cigarettes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 65, "text": "Great - a great distinction.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I was never - like, I was never, like, a real sort of weed guy. It was smoking, kind of bad grades 'cause I was goofing off, defying curfews, all stuff like that. And there were a group of us, a"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 66, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's a distinction."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 67, "text": "You are mostly known for comedic roles and - although, in the new film \"Is This Thing On?\" you play somebody who is just getting started in comedy. There are funny moments in the movie, but it's also just a character study about how people change and come together and then maybe break apart and then come together or not. So you didn't intend to be a comedic actor, as far as I know. You wanted to be a dramatic actor. Did you have to learn things? Like, you have great comic timing, and you're naturally funny. And I've heard you on \"SmartLess.\" You were really funny on that. Did being funny in real life - was that mostly like your training to be funny in roles?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There's a real distinction there, Terry. But - so yeah. It never really - it's funny. I went to boarding school when I was 12. And again, my dad, who came up through public school system in Winnipeg -"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 68, "text": "Well, that includes Amy Poehler, who you were married to for 10 years.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't have any training. And there have been times where I regretted that I wasn't, like, in a sketch group or that I didn't do improv as part of an improv group in some sort of more formal setting"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 69, "text": "Can you look back to your first audition? How nervous were you? What was the part? What was your confidence level? How did you present yourself? Even if it was a kind of front you were putting on, did you present yourself as confident? Did you dress for the role?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "? Just - and so hilarious now to think back on how embarrassing that position is. But anyway - and I started reading for sitcoms. And that - doing that, I was like, oh, you know, OK. And I could kind "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 70, "text": "Did you sleep the night before?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can think back on it."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 71, "text": "Will Arnett, it's been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much. Congratulations on the new film.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I can think back on a lot of those early auditions, like, first sort of paying gigs for, like, a sitcom and being very nervous and almost, like, out of body, like, feeling - not being present and just"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5648360", "date": "2025-12-23", "guest": "Will Arnett", "title": "Will Arnett exposes the complexities of marriage and comedy in 'Is This Thing On?'", "question_index": 72, "text": "Will Arnett co-wrote and stars in the new film \"Is This Thing On?\" After we take a short break, TV critic David Bianculli will look back on the year in TV. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much, Terry. I really appreciate it."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5677530", "date": "2026-01-16", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Rebecca Kilgore", "question_index": 0, "text": "Thanks, Dave. I think Becky did more concerts on our show than any other performer. Her repertoire was American popular song, dating as far back as the 1930s. She performed with songwriter, pianist and singer Dave Frishberg in the '90s at the Heathman Hotel in Portland, Oregon. They both lived there. And that enabled her to quit her job as a secretary at Reed College and have a real music career, recording many albums and performing around the world. It was great to record her for our show because she was always right on pitch, which meant we didn't need to do a lot of takes. It was her sense of rhythm that I loved most. She had such a natural sense of swing. I loved her for singing relatively obscure songs and reviving songs I'd never heard of. She struck me as kind of shy, but that may have contributed to another trait I loved. She called attention to the song and not herself. She didn't try to impress you with, like, high notes or dizzying scat singing. She knew how to bring a song to life and fill them with her delight in singing them. Becky died of Lewy body disease, and that has symptoms similar to Alzheimer's. And Dave Frishberg died of Alzheimer's in 2021. I always describe Becky as one of my favorite living singers, and I feel so lucky to have gotten the chance to work with her and to showcase her singing on our show. Rest in peace, Becky.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies. Next, we're going to remember singer Rebecca Kilgore, a devoted interpreter of American popular song who died last week at the age of 76. You may have heard her in "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5677530", "date": "2026-01-16", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Rebecca Kilgore", "question_index": 1, "text": "Wonderful. And that's Rebecca Kilgore singing with Dave Frishberg at the piano. Becky, welcome to FRESH AIR. This has been an ambition of mine for a long time to have you sing on the show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm happy, happy, happy as the day is long. I'm happy, so happy, happy as the day is long. Got a heavy affair, and I'm having my fun. Am I walking on air? Gee, but I'm the lucky one. I've got my peace"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5677530", "date": "2026-01-16", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Rebecca Kilgore", "question_index": 2, "text": "And I'm delighted that we're actually doing it. It's remarkable to me that you can sing as wonderfully as you do. And yet, having - you started so late professionally to actually sing in front of people.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, thank you (ph)."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5677530", "date": "2026-01-16", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Rebecca Kilgore", "question_index": 3, "text": "You gave up your day job - what? - just a couple of years ago?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. But I was a closet singer before that. So I had lots of practice in my own living room."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5677530", "date": "2026-01-16", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Rebecca Kilgore", "question_index": 4, "text": "What was the turning point to give it up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's correct - actually, 2 1/2. Yep."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5677530", "date": "2026-01-16", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Rebecca Kilgore", "question_index": 5, "text": "Equally remarkable to me is that you didn't even sing in front of people until - what? - you were 30, 31?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was working full time, and it was getting to be too much with all the gigs I had at night. And it was clear that I had to make a decision, and I had the support of my boss and my colleagues, and the"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5677530", "date": "2026-01-16", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Rebecca Kilgore", "question_index": 6, "text": "Do you have a good musical memory? When you're trying to learn a song, do you get it first time or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5677530", "date": "2026-01-16", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Rebecca Kilgore", "question_index": 7, "text": "Say you're learning a melody that has, like, a difficult interval. What's your idea of a difficult melody to learn?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I wish I did, and that's - boy, I wish I could just learn a song immediately. But I have to painstakingly play the melody on my guitar and sing along with it and read the notes and then read the l"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5677530", "date": "2026-01-16", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Rebecca Kilgore", "question_index": 8, "text": "What...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Dance, ballerina, dance and do your pirouette in rhythm with your aching heart. Dance, ballerina, dance. You mustn't once forget a dancer has to dance the part. See what I mean?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5677530", "date": "2026-01-16", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Rebecca Kilgore", "question_index": 9, "text": "No, what makes that tricky? - 'cause there's a lot of intervals...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What do you think (ph)?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5677530", "date": "2026-01-16", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Rebecca Kilgore", "question_index": 10, "text": "...And quick notes? What's an accidental?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Accidentals."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5677530", "date": "2026-01-16", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Rebecca Kilgore", "question_index": 11, "text": "I'm interested in how you started performing together, which you do every week now in Portland.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Otherwise, you just sound awful."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5677530", "date": "2026-01-16", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Rebecca Kilgore", "question_index": 12, "text": "And so you asked her to sing with you? I mean, how did you start performing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, so we've known each other quite a long time. I was knocked out with her then. She was the guitar player with the band, you know, but she was singing. She sounded great."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5677530", "date": "2026-01-16", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Rebecca Kilgore", "question_index": 13, "text": "And Becky, did it change your singing at all to have Dave play? I mean, I think he's just fantastic...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, later on, when I moved to Portland, I was offered this job at the Heathman. And they said they wanted a singer, and I thought of Becky."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5677530", "date": "2026-01-16", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Rebecca Kilgore", "question_index": 14, "text": "...Pianist, and I wonder if you think that that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5677530", "date": "2026-01-16", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Rebecca Kilgore", "question_index": 15, "text": "...Affected you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5677530", "date": "2026-01-16", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Rebecca Kilgore", "question_index": 16, "text": "On your album \"I Saw Stars,\" you do a lot of songs that I love, and I love the way you do the songs. So I'm going to request a song from that CD. And this is \"No Love, No Nothing.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Becky's a good arranger and a good guitar player, and she knows how to write a good lead sheet. And it's increased my repertoire. It's enriched my repertoire quite a bit, too."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5677530", "date": "2026-01-16", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Rebecca Kilgore", "question_index": 17, "text": "Well, Dave, Becky, why don't you do one of Dorothy Fields', actually, her first hit. It was her first hit, \"I Can't Give You Anything But Love,\" which like \"The Sunny Side Of The Street\" has music by Jimmy McHugh. This song caught on after it was featured in the review of Lew Leslie's \"Blackbirds Of 1928.\" Maybe you can do the verse for us also.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. We're remembering singer Rebecca Kilgore, who died last week at the age of 76. She wasn't well-known among the general public but was a real favorite here at FRESH AIR. She recorded"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5677530", "date": "2026-01-16", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Rebecca Kilgore", "question_index": 18, "text": "Yeah, that song was written, I think, about a year before the Depression and obviously had particular resonance", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Gee, I'd love to see you looking swell, baby. Diamond bracelets Woolworth doesn't sell, baby. Till that lucky day, you know darn well, baby, I can't give you anything but love. I can't give you anythi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5677530", "date": "2026-01-16", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Rebecca Kilgore", "question_index": 19, "text": "when the Depression hit shortly after. Becky, do you find Dorothy Fields' lyrics particularly singable because they're so colloquial? Take a line like, gee, I'd like to see you looking swell.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Gee, I'd love to see you looking swell, baby. Diamond bracelets Woolworth doesn't sell, baby. Till that lucky day, you know darn well, baby, I can't give you anything but love. I can't give you anythi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5677530", "date": "2026-01-16", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Rebecca Kilgore", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "See, I can get into a lyric like that."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5677530", "date": "2026-01-16", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Rebecca Kilgore", "question_index": 21, "text": "You know, Dorothy Fields' trademark as a lyricist is her cleverness. But she could also write really tender lyrics. And I think this song really proves that. This is \"The Way You Look Tonight,\" a ballad that she wrote with Jerome Kern. It won an Academy Award. It was written for the Fred Astaire-Ginger Rogers film \"Swing Time.\" And, you know, Dorothy Fields said that the first time Jerome Kern played her the melody, right before she wrote the lyric for it, she thought it was so beautiful that she started to cry, and she had to leave the room. Would you do the song for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I love that. I'm not embarrassed to say that. Some corny lyrics, I am. But it just sounds, like you say, colloquial. And it's fun to say."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5677530", "date": "2026-01-16", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Rebecca Kilgore", "question_index": 22, "text": "That was beautiful. I want to thank you both for performing songs by Dorothy Fields for us. It's really been a pleasure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Someday when I'm awfully low, when the world is cold, I will feel a glow just thinking of you and the way you look tonight. Oh, but you're lovely. With your smile so warm and your cheeks so "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5677530", "date": "2026-01-16", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Rebecca Kilgore", "question_index": 23, "text": "Well, early in Hoagy Carmichael's Hollywood career, when he was a staff songwriter at Paramount Pictures, the studio teamed him up with Frank Loesser. And Loesser is a composer and lyricist who's probably best known for writing the songs for \"Guys And Dolls.\" But at the time, he was just getting started as lyricist. And so, with Hoagy Carmichael, he wrote \"Small Fry,\" \"Heart And Soul\" and \"Two Sleepy People.\" I'm going to ask you to do \"Two Sleepy People.\" It was sung by Bob Hope and Shirley Ross in the 1938 movie \"Thanks For The Memory.\" It's a wonderful song. Would you do it for us?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Dave Frishberg and Rebecca Kilgore recorded in 1999 as part of our American Popular Song Series. We'll hear more of their performances after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR, and we're re"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5677530", "date": "2026-01-16", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Rebecca Kilgore", "question_index": 24, "text": "I think that's one of the most successfully conversational songs I know, both in the lyric and in the music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Playing piano, singing) Well, here we are keeping up the pace, letting each tomorrow slap us in the face. Two sleepy people by dawn's early light and too much in love to say goodnight."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5677530", "date": "2026-01-16", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Rebecca Kilgore", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well, the next Hoagy Carmichael song I'd like you to do for us is called \"The Nearness Of You.\" And although it's one of his most recorded songs, I don't think it's nearly as well known as his other famous songs like \"Skylark\" and \"Stardust\" and \"Rockin' Chair\" and \"Georgia.\" The lyric is by Ned Washington, who is given Hoagy's melody by the Paramount Studio, and the song was used for the 1938 movie \"Romance In The Dark.\" Would you do \"The Nearness Of You\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Oh, yeah. It's real. It's two real people."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5677530", "date": "2026-01-16", "guest": "Dave Frishberg", "title": "Remembering jazz singer Rebecca Kilgore", "question_index": 26, "text": "That was lovely.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) It's not the pale moon that excites me, that thrills and delights me. Oh, no. It's just the nearness of you. It isn't your sweet conversation that brings this sensation. Oh, no. It's just th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5683915", "date": "2026-01-21", "guest": "Emmanuel Mauleon", "title": "Are ICE agents in Minneapolis breaking the law?", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. President Donald Trump has said he would institute the Insurrection Act in Minneapolis if the people he describes as professional agitators and insurrectionists continue attacking the patriots of ICE. There are now about 3,000 Department of Homeland Security agents, which includes ICE and Customs and Border Patrol - the CBP - in the Minneapolis-St Paul region to search for and deport immigrants here illegally. What does this say about President Trump and his administration? How is this playing out in the courts? What does it mean for the First and Fourth Amendment rights of Americans to peacefully protest and express their opinions, and for our democracy? I have two guests who have been looking at these issues. Emmanuel Mauleon is a professor at the University of Minnesota Law School. He lives in the Twin Cities. He writes about the roles that police and other state security actors play in producing social, political and legal regimes of domination and subordination. He's a former fellow at the Brennan Center for Justice, where he focused on white nationalist domestic terrorism, hate crime policy and police access to surveillance technology and military weapons. Elizabeth Goitein is senior director of liberty and national security at the Brennan Center for Justice. She's an expert on presidential emergency powers, government surveillance and government secrecy. She's testified before Senate and House Judiciary Committees several times. We recorded our interview yesterday morning before it was confirmed that subpoenas were issued to Minnesota Governor Tim Walz, Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey, the state's attorney general, Keith Ellison, as well as the mayor of St. Paul and the Hennepin County attorney. The subpoenas are reportedly part of a Justice Department probe into whether state officials were conspiring to impede federal immigration law enforcement operations. Elizabeth Goitein, Emmanuel Mauleon, welcome to FRESH AIR. I want to start with an overview, asking each of you to just, like, run through a list of some of the things that President Trump and his administration are doing that you find most confounding or legally out of bounds.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5683915", "date": "2026-01-21", "guest": "Emmanuel Mauleon", "title": "Are ICE agents in Minneapolis breaking the law?", "question_index": 1, "text": "And Liza?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So as a scholar that studies primarily policing, criminal procedure, the rights that we have secured against the government in that realm, I'm certainly very concerned about violations of the Fourth A"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5683915", "date": "2026-01-21", "guest": "Emmanuel Mauleon", "title": "Are ICE agents in Minneapolis breaking the law?", "question_index": 2, "text": "Well, you both have pretty long lists. So let's start with ICE and what's happening in Minnesota. And, Emmanuel, I'm going to ask you - you were born in Mexico, and I am wondering if you've been stopped by ICE and if anyone in your family has come in direct contact with ICE.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "One of the things that concerns me the most is the way in which this administration is using the apparatus of the federal government to go after perceived political enemies. I'm thinking about, you kn"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5683915", "date": "2026-01-21", "guest": "Emmanuel Mauleon", "title": "Are ICE agents in Minneapolis breaking the law?", "question_index": 3, "text": "When were you threatened with deportation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I have not been stopped by ICE - certainly not yet - but it is a ever-present concern, I would say. And so I do live in Minneapolis now. I grew up in the city, so I'm returning after about 20 year"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5683915", "date": "2026-01-21", "guest": "Emmanuel Mauleon", "title": "Are ICE agents in Minneapolis breaking the law?", "question_index": 4, "text": "So my understanding is that your nephew goes to the school where there was an anti-ICE protest outside of the school, and ICE came to the protest and tried to break it up. Tell us the story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd say about 20 years ago. I was arrested and charged with a crime that I did not commit. But while I was in jail here in Hennepin County, I was brought at some point in time to a room that was very "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5683915", "date": "2026-01-21", "guest": "Emmanuel Mauleon", "title": "Are ICE agents in Minneapolis breaking the law?", "question_index": 5, "text": "So, I mean, you're a lawyer. You know the law. So what advice are you giving your students and your nephew about how to stay safe?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. So it's been challenging here, certainly. This operation's been ongoing for about eight weeks now. But in the last two weeks or so, since the shooting of Renee Good, things have certainly escala"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5683915", "date": "2026-01-21", "guest": "Emmanuel Mauleon", "title": "Are ICE agents in Minneapolis breaking the law?", "question_index": 6, "text": "Well, we need to take a short break here, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guests are Emmanuel Mauleon, who is a professor at the University of Minnesota Law School, and Elizabeth Goitein, who's a senior director at the Brennan Center for Justice. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My general advice is to both know your rights, know the extent of your rights, know that you can ask if you're free to leave any sort of encounter, so that it's not - you know, you can determine wheth"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5683915", "date": "2026-01-21", "guest": "Emmanuel Mauleon", "title": "Are ICE agents in Minneapolis breaking the law?", "question_index": 7, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're talking about the legal issues in Minneapolis regarding ICE and the ongoing protests and the Trump administration's crackdown. My guests are Elizabeth Goitein, senior director of liberty and national security at the Brennan Center for Justice, and Emmanuel Mauleon, a professor at the University of Minnesota Law School. Our interview was recorded yesterday. I want to play something that the mayor of Minneapolis had to say recently about ICE in his city. This is Jacob Frey.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My general advice is to both know your rights, know the extent of your rights, know that you can ask if you're free to leave any sort of encounter, so that it's not - you know, you can determine wheth"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5683915", "date": "2026-01-21", "guest": "Emmanuel Mauleon", "title": "Are ICE agents in Minneapolis breaking the law?", "question_index": 8, "text": "So that was Mayor Jacob Frey on CNN's \"State Of The Union,\" speaking with Jake Tapper over the weekend on Sunday. Liza, you mentioned in your list of things that you find troubling right now on that list is how Trump has turned the government against perceived enemies. We just heard Mayor Jacob Frey talking about how we never expected to see the U.S. military used against, you know, Americans, like in Minnesota. Do you see this as an example of Trump using government against his perceived enemies? Can you flesh that out for us?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We have tens of thousands of people throughout the city that are peacefully protesting. Of course they're marching. Of course they're expressing their First Amendment rights. Yes, they are able to rec"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5683915", "date": "2026-01-21", "guest": "Emmanuel Mauleon", "title": "Are ICE agents in Minneapolis breaking the law?", "question_index": 9, "text": "And I should mention that that reference to 1,500 troops is...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, if President Trump were to deploy troops in Minneapolis, presumably..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5683915", "date": "2026-01-21", "guest": "Emmanuel Mauleon", "title": "Are ICE agents in Minneapolis breaking the law?", "question_index": 10, "text": "There are 1,500 troops being ready to deploy to Minnesota, and these troops are based in Alaska, where they have training in cold weather.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5683915", "date": "2026-01-21", "guest": "Emmanuel Mauleon", "title": "Are ICE agents in Minneapolis breaking the law?", "question_index": 11, "text": "So would Donald Trump be required to invoke the Insurrection Act before sending in the military?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, if President Trump were to deploy troops in Minneapolis, for example, if he were to invoke the Insurrection Act, that would be a clear abuse of power. The Insurrection Act is designed for extrao"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5683915", "date": "2026-01-21", "guest": "Emmanuel Mauleon", "title": "Are ICE agents in Minneapolis breaking the law?", "question_index": 12, "text": "And some of the dates back to, like, the pre-Revolutionary War days - right? - when people living in the colonies were attacked by the British military and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he might try to claim that he has an inherent constitutional right to deploy the military to protect federal personnel and property. That is something that the administration has argued in other"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5683915", "date": "2026-01-21", "guest": "Emmanuel Mauleon", "title": "Are ICE agents in Minneapolis breaking the law?", "question_index": 13, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5683915", "date": "2026-01-21", "guest": "Emmanuel Mauleon", "title": "Are ICE agents in Minneapolis breaking the law?", "question_index": 14, "text": "Emmanuel, since a lot of your focus has been on policing, what are some of the differences between what police are allowed to do and what ICE is legally allowed to do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. The principle that the military should not act as a domestic police force goes back centuries, all the way to the Magna Carta. So even though the Posse Comitatus Act was passed in 1878, th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5683915", "date": "2026-01-21", "guest": "Emmanuel Mauleon", "title": "Are ICE agents in Minneapolis breaking the law?", "question_index": 15, "text": "Is it legal for an ICE agent to confiscate a camera if - you know, a phone camera - if somebody is shooting video of what that agent is doing on their phone?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you should understand that the general police power is reserved to the states, to local authorities. And so generalized response to crime, charging people, arrests for, you know, any number of m"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5683915", "date": "2026-01-21", "guest": "Emmanuel Mauleon", "title": "Are ICE agents in Minneapolis breaking the law?", "question_index": 16, "text": "My guests are Elizabeth Goitein, senior director of liberty and national security at the Brennan Center for Justice, and Emmanuel Mauleon, a professor at the University of Minnesota Law School. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Certainly, it would be - if the only thing that's occurring is that somebody is observing, certainly they're doing it from a distance that's not impeding an actual enforcement act - so if there's an I"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5683915", "date": "2026-01-21", "guest": "Emmanuel Mauleon", "title": "Are ICE agents in Minneapolis breaking the law?", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview about the legal issues in Minneapolis regarding ICE and the ongoing protests, as well as the Trump administration's crackdown. My guests are Elizabeth Goitein, senior director of liberty and national security at the Brennan Center for Justice, and Emmanuel Mauleon, a professor at the University of Minnesota Law School. Our interview was recorded yesterday morning. What is the status of racial profiling now? Is that now considered a more legitimate thing to do? Like, what have the courts said about racial profiling recently?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Certainly, it would be - if the only thing that's occurring is that somebody is observing, certainly they're doing it from a distance that's not impeding an actual enforcement act - so if there's an I"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5683915", "date": "2026-01-21", "guest": "Emmanuel Mauleon", "title": "Are ICE agents in Minneapolis breaking the law?", "question_index": 18, "text": "Can you elaborate on what Kavanaugh said in his concurrence?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So there was a case that was filed in Los Angeles based on the also-recent surge of ICE and immigration enforcement activity there. There were claims of widespread racial profiling, and that case is V"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5683915", "date": "2026-01-21", "guest": "Emmanuel Mauleon", "title": "Are ICE agents in Minneapolis breaking the law?", "question_index": 19, "text": "Well, we need to take a short break here, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guests are Emmanuel Mauleon, who is a professor at the University of Minnesota Law School, and Elizabeth Goitein, who's a senior director at the Brennan Center for Justice. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Liza's exactly right. Kavanaugh does seem to walk it back in this case, Trump v. Illinois. But one of the critical issues here is that that's what we call, in the legal world, dicta. It was not square"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5683915", "date": "2026-01-21", "guest": "Emmanuel Mauleon", "title": "Are ICE agents in Minneapolis breaking the law?", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're talking about ICE, with an emphasis on what ICE is doing in Minnesota. My guests are Elizabeth Goitein, who is senior director at the Brennan Center for Justice, and Emmanuel Mauleon, who is a professor at the University of Minnesota Law School. Liza, I want to get back to the Insurrection Act. If Trump does invoke the Insurrection Act as he has threatened to do, what exactly would that give him power to do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Liza's exactly right. Kavanaugh does seem to walk it back in this case, Trump v. Illinois. But one of the critical issues here is that that's what we call, in the legal world, dicta. It was not square"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5683915", "date": "2026-01-21", "guest": "Emmanuel Mauleon", "title": "Are ICE agents in Minneapolis breaking the law?", "question_index": 21, "text": "So what do you fear that the military could be ordered to do if the Insurrection Act was invoked by Trump?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Insurrection Act is the primary exception to the Posse Comitatus Act, and that's the law that normally prohibits federal armed forces from engaging in law enforcement. So if he were to invoke the "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5683915", "date": "2026-01-21", "guest": "Emmanuel Mauleon", "title": "Are ICE agents in Minneapolis breaking the law?", "question_index": 22, "text": "I'm wondering if you think that sending in the National Guard against various governors' will and then threatening to invoke the Insurrection Act - what happens next? Can it be instituting martial law?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my main fear is less about the specific actions that they will take but the consequences of militarizing U.S. cities and militarizing law enforcement functions. I think the immediate effect of d"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5683915", "date": "2026-01-21", "guest": "Emmanuel Mauleon", "title": "Are ICE agents in Minneapolis breaking the law?", "question_index": 23, "text": "But who's to stop him? Congress hasn't stood up to him. Republicans in Congress haven't stood up to him. He appointed a majority of the Supreme Court.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, martial law is different than deploying troops under the Insurrection Act, at least as it's commonly understood. I mean, there's no single official definition of martial law. But it's generally "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5683915", "date": "2026-01-21", "guest": "Emmanuel Mauleon", "title": "Are ICE agents in Minneapolis breaking the law?", "question_index": 24, "text": "But that wasn't...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, the Supreme Court stopped him from using the law that he was relying on to federalize the National Guard in Illinois. And..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5683915", "date": "2026-01-21", "guest": "Emmanuel Mauleon", "title": "Are ICE agents in Minneapolis breaking the law?", "question_index": 25, "text": "But there are two other states where they didn't stop him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That law..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5683915", "date": "2026-01-21", "guest": "Emmanuel Mauleon", "title": "Are ICE agents in Minneapolis breaking the law?", "question_index": 26, "text": "Which case are you referring to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But they held that the law couldn't be used for that purpose. And so President Trump saw the writing on the wall, and he demobilized the troops in those other cities. I mean, the Supreme Court didn't "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5683915", "date": "2026-01-21", "guest": "Emmanuel Mauleon", "title": "Are ICE agents in Minneapolis breaking the law?", "question_index": 27, "text": "The places where he sent in the National Guard against the governor's will.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm talking about the Illinois case, and also similarly in - so in Los Angeles, in Portland, in Chicago. The..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5683915", "date": "2026-01-21", "guest": "Emmanuel Mauleon", "title": "Are ICE agents in Minneapolis breaking the law?", "question_index": 28, "text": "Well, we need to take a short break here, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guests are Emmanuel Mauleon, who is a professor at the University of Minnesota Law School, and Elizabeth Goitein, who's a senior director at the Brennan Center for Justice. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There are some ways that this moment is truly exceptional, and there are some ways that this moment is really a continuity of a path that we've been on. And so to the extent that - I think Liza is cor"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5683915", "date": "2026-01-21", "guest": "Emmanuel Mauleon", "title": "Are ICE agents in Minneapolis breaking the law?", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. We're talking about ICE, with an emphasis on what ICE is doing in Minnesota. My guests are Elizabeth Goitein, who is senior director at the Brennan Center for Justice, and Emmanuel Mauleon, who is a professor at the University of Minnesota Law School. Our interview was recorded yesterday morning. Emmanuel, I want to get back to you. We've talked about how, you know, what can be called racial profiling has been used in Minneapolis to stop people of color. And I'm wondering if you think there's an element of white nationalism behind some of the thinking here, 'cause white nationalists don't like people of color in the U.S. They're afraid of losing the white majority. They're afraid of, you know, quote, losing control of our country. And I know you've studied white nationalism, so I'm interested in what you think.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There are some ways that this moment is truly exceptional, and there are some ways that this moment is really a continuity of a path that we've been on. And so to the extent that - I think Liza is cor"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5683915", "date": "2026-01-21", "guest": "Emmanuel Mauleon", "title": "Are ICE agents in Minneapolis breaking the law?", "question_index": 30, "text": "Before we wrap, I want to ask you a question about Greenland, which Trump has threatened to take over. He wants to try to buy it. He's threatened military force if he's not allowed to buy it. He's threatened tariffs if European countries don't allow him to buy it, 'cause they are doing their best to stand in the way. And he sent a text to the prime minister of Norway, saying that he no longer felt obligated to pursue peace. Quote, \"considering your country decided not to give me the Nobel Peace Prize for having stopped eight wars-plus, I no longer feel an obligation to think purely of peace, although it will always be predominant.\" But now I can \"think about what is good and proper for the United States of America.\" \"The world is not secure unless we have complete and total control of Greenland. Thank you.\" And then he also said that we need to have Greenland for psychological reasons. You're both experts in law. These are not legal arguments. What do you make of this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. The - there's a not-so-discreet connection between the desires and stated policy goals of open white nationalists and this administration. Certainly, Stephen Miller, who is in the administration"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5683915", "date": "2026-01-21", "guest": "Emmanuel Mauleon", "title": "Are ICE agents in Minneapolis breaking the law?", "question_index": 31, "text": "Well, I want to thank you both very much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Like Liza, I think, you know, clearly, it shows the incredibly capricious nature on which we're supposedly running our foreign policy today. But I see really clear throughlines, I think, from what is "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5683915", "date": "2026-01-21", "guest": "Emmanuel Mauleon", "title": "Are ICE agents in Minneapolis breaking the law?", "question_index": 32, "text": "Elizabeth Goitein is Senior Director of Liberty and National Security at the Brennan Center for Justice. Emmanuel Mauleon is a professor at the University of Minnesota Law School. Our interview was recorded yesterday morning. A few hours after our interview, federal prosecutors issued subpoenas for at least five of Minnesota democratic officials, including Minnesota governor Tim Walz and Minneapolis Mayor Jacob Frey. The subpoenas are reportedly part of a Justice Department probe into whether state officials were conspiring to impede federal immigration law enforcement operations. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, Pulitzer Prize winner Quiara Alegr\u00eda Hudes. She collaborated with Lin-Manuel Miranda on the musical \"In The Heights\" and the animated film \"Vivo.\" In her debut novel, \"The White Hot,\" a mother abandons her 10-year-old daughter, then writes her a letter on her 18th birthday to explain. I hope you'll join us. FRESH AIR's executive producers are Danny Miller and Sam Briger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much, Terry."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 0, "text": "You know, some of my very favorite Mel Brooks moments are your big production numbers, your Broadway showstoppers with big choruses for grim and totally inappropriate subjects, like \"Springtime For Hitler\" in \"The Producers\" or \"The Inquisition, What A Show\" (ph) in \"History Of The World, Part I.\" Did you want to be on Broadway for real when you were growing up? Or did you want to be a song-and-dance man?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As characters, singing) Springtime for Hitler and Germany. Come on, Germans. Go into your dance."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 1, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To be perfectly frank, yes. The answer to all those questions is, yes. Yes..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 2, "text": "Even in \"Life Stinks\" you have one.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wanted more than anything - I wanted to sing and dance jump up and down on Broadway, and even more than that on the big silver screen. And my heroes when I was young were, of course, Fred Astaire an"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 3, "text": "So when you were growing up and you really wanted to be on Broadway or to be a song-and-dance man, how far did you get with that? Or how far did you think you could get singing and dancing? Did you have...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, even in \"Life Stinks,\" which is a story of rich and poor, somehow we're doing this salute to the '40s, you know, with Gene Kelly, in a rag factory."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 4, "text": "What did you do that night?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I did it, but I did it in the in the sour cream factories of the Borscht Belt, in the Catskills just outside of New York. There were these resort hotels. And you started by just tending the rowboa"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that night, I did a different - it's a good question, Terry. I like you, Terry Gross. This is going to be a great show because I like you and I like me. So when I listen to this, I'm going to be"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What did I do? That night, I did a different kind of comedy because there was a maid who was locked in the closet that day. She had somehow locked herself in a broom closet, in a storeroom closet, and"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 7, "text": "I want to get back to your big lavish production numbers like \"Springtime For Hitler.\" What possessed you the first time you did one of those? Like, \"Springtime For Hitler,\" for instance, it's such a wonderful and really funny number, and I'm sure a lot of people thought it was just in horrible taste.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mel Brooks speaking with Terry Gross in 1991. We'll hear more after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1991 interview with Mel Brooks. He's the subject of a new d"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 8, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was in horrible taste. It was in execrable taste. I'm ashamed of it to this day. But I do like that juxtaposition of those two textures, you know? Let me tell you, the song itself composed - nobody"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And there are people going up and down, but it just goes (vocalizing). They don't know it's (singing) springtime for Hitler and Germany. They don't know that. They just hear the music and they sway ti"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 10, "text": "What do you think your most misunderstood scene is in any of your movies?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it's amazing. And so the melody is almost like a Richard Rodgers melody. And that's why, when you hear these crazy words against it, it all falls into place beautifully."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 11, "text": "What kind of roles do you think you would have gotten if you weren't writing your own?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it's - that's a good question, Terry Gross. That's a very good question. What is my most misunderstood or misinterpreted theme? Yeah, vulgarity or bad taste. I use it, therefore I'm painted wi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, the - my favorite role would be the king of Germany, the kaiser roll. That would be - no."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 13, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Two demerits for that. I can't help - look, when you work in the mountains, it never leaves you. You know, cheap jokes, cheap jokes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 14, "text": "What kind of roles do you think you would have gotten in movies if you weren't writing your own?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I'm a purveyor of cheap jokes. Now, what kind of roles would I - say again, Terry?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 15, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in the '30s, I probably would have been a bellboy in hotel movies."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know? And then, I guess, in the '40s, I would have been, you know, like, you know, a good-natured soldier from Brooklyn. I know the roles they would have given me."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 17, "text": "Before you started writing for \"The Sid Caesar Show,\" did you have any outwardly Jewish people to see yourself in, outside of the Catskill comics, but people who were not only Jewish in show business but were doing sketches about being Jewish or who were writing stories about being Jewish or, you know, who were Jewish in any outward way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would - they would have called me Brooklyn. Hey, Brooklyn, you know? And then in the '50s, I would have been the band boy with the rock 'n' roll group, you know, touring the - I know. That's why I w"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 18, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Good question. No. The only role models had gone away, and that was Yiddish theater. You know..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Yiddish theater of Second Avenue in New York. And that was long gone by the time I had made my way into show business. I had only seen one play. And the second act of the Yiddish theater was an in"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 20, "text": "Your parents were Eastern European immigrants. Was mostly Yiddish spoken in your house?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So - and they always had - or a soldier would come home, and the mother would say, (speaking Yiddish). He's blind. And then the curtain would go. I mean, they always had this - they had these tragical"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 21, "text": "Can I hear about what your bar mitzvah was like?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli. \"Mel Brooks: The 99 Year Old Man!\" is the name and subject of a new two-part HBO documentary, concluding tonight and streaming on HBO Max. It's codirected by Ju"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 22, "text": "A lot of your movies are parodies of genre films. When did you fall in love with movies? Did you go a lot when you were young?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was fast and short. In those days, they were not - today, I just went to a bar mitzvah, and it could have fed all of Kyiv, where my mother came from. It's an amazing difference. My bar mitzvah took"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 23, "text": "Oh, so it looked like you were exiting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I went a lot and I didn't have a lot of money. So the way I used to get into movies was when the audience who had just - when the movie would break and the audience would walk out, I would join them. "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 24, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I would hide in the back row."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 25, "text": "I want to get back to something we were talking about before. You know how you were saying if you weren't writing your own roles, you'd be, like, the bellboy in the movie or whatever? When you realized that, as much as you loved song and dance and Broadway shows and musical comedy movies - when you realized that you probably weren't going to be a leading man, you weren't going to be cast as a leading man, well, eventually you started casting yourself as a leading man in parodies of those kinds of movies. But were you ever really heartbroken knowing that you wouldn't be in the serious versions of those movies?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then when the new audience came in, I mean, I would watch the movie. And that was the only way I could get to see movies because I couldn't afford the - whatever it was, the 15 cents to get in to "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 26, "text": "I'm going to play some of \"High Anxiety.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a good question. Yeah, in my heart of hearts, I always wanted to be Errol Flynn. Yeah, I was heartbroken. And I always wanted the most beautiful, long-waisted, long-legged women in the world to"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 27, "text": "Mel Brooks, I want to get to a different side of what you do, and that's the movies that you produce, because, you know, Brooksfilms has done movies like \"The Elephant Man.\" And you had David Lynch direct that. And \"The Fly,\" David Cronenberg directed that. What I'm interested in here is that it seems to me you produce these serious, moody films that are so different from the kinds of films you direct and write and star in. It seems like it's another part of you, but it's one that I guess you feel more comfortable in the position of producer rather than writer, director or star.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) High anxiety whenever you're near. High anxiety. It's you that I fear. My heart's afraid to fly. It's crashed before. But then you take my hand. My heart starts to soar once more. High anxie"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 28, "text": "But are these films that you would like to be making yourself, in a way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "True. Because I have not been allowed to do, quote, \"serious things\" - you know, allowed by my image. You do something and then the public - and the critics, too - want you to do it until you're dead."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 29, "text": "So many of your movies seem to be about, isn't it an absurd - isn't it absurd that I would be in this position here? Or isn't it absurd that a Jew like me would be in this position here? I'm wondering about the circumstances in your life where you felt like the Jew. Were there instances where you felt that way? Or did you grow up in a neighborhood where just about everybody was Jewish and came from families and background like you did?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in a way, I've kind of put it together in \"Life Stinks.\" And it's kind of the first time I've stepped out of the closet. So here I am, Mel Brooks and Brooksfilms, all in one movie. And I'm very "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 30, "text": "(Laugher).", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I felt - actually, I felt - I had great compassion and pity for the few Catholic people that were living in our ghetto because..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 31, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...In Williamsburg in Brooklyn, because I felt, these poor people, these Christians. I mean, they're in the minority. We should help them."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 32, "text": "Well, Mel Brooks, I want to thank you a lot for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We should be kind to them, you know? I never thought that we - you know? And then I was drafted, and I was in the Army. And I said, wait a minute, wait a minute. I mean, there are 10,000 guys here and"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 33, "text": "Let's start at the beginning. When you were first coming up with the movie \"The Producers,\" how did you come up with the scam that's at the center of the movie and the show, which is that a producer can make more money with a flop than a hit?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Mel Brooks talking with Terry Gross in 1991. We'll hear a portion of their later conversation from 2001 after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. We're listening to Terry's 2001 interview w"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 34, "text": "But did he have a scam like that, of thinking...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A hundred years ago, I was working for a producer in New York who was right around here - right around. We're broadcasting from Carnegie Hall, actually in the building. He wore an alpaca coat winter, "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 35, "text": "...He'd make more money from a...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. He..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 36, "text": "...Flop than a hit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 37, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Everything he touched was doomed."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 38, "text": "Now, when you came up with the idea of \"Springtime For Hitler,\" did that idea precede your concept that you had to come up with the worst show ever written, or did you know you had to come up with the worst show ever written and that's how you came up with \"Springtime For Hitler\"? Which came first?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He never knew. You know, he always hoped for a hit. He was my model for Bialystock. But once I wrote it, I thought - I added that, that Leo Bloom, the accountant, would come up with this simple little"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 39, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I knew they had to have a flop."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 40, "text": "Right. It...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then I searched for six months. I was writing morning, noon and night. I couldn't find the right flop. Just like they read."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 41, "text": "Yeah. They're searching for the worst play ever written.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just like Bialystock and Bloom have - you know, read in a - their - that little office filled with scripts. Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 42, "text": "But you had to create the worst play ever written.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 43, "text": "Now when...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had to create the worst play. I couldn't find the worst play ever written, so I created it."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 44, "text": "...Did you come up with the idea that a musical about Hitler with dancing and singing Hitlers and dancing and singing Nazis would be just the thing that would be the worst play ever written?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 45, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in those days, it was pretty dangerous."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 46, "text": "And I really think that it's because you feel so strongly about what Hitler did that you're able to make something this funny. Do you know what I mean? It's because - because it matters to you so much, you're able to really do something that - that's funny, that...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know? Because, I mean, the war was only over for - what? - about 19 or 20 years, you know? And here we were taking - you know, making Hitler - taking Hitler to task in a funny way, you know? And H"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 47, "text": "...That's that funny. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I've always said..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 48, "text": "Now, did you ever say to yourself, maybe I'm going too far?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. True. I've always said that, you know, these guys are brilliant orators. They are. All despots have the gift of persuasive speech. And if you get on a soapbox and try to argue with them, you're "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 49, "text": "Right. Push it more.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Never. I've always said to myself, have I gone far enough?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5686369", "date": "2026-01-23", "guest": "Mel Brooks", "title": "Mel Brooks delights in mixing horrible taste with lavish production numbers", "question_index": 50, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5699388", "date": "2026-02-04", "guest": "Robert Kagan", "title": "Is the U.S. heading into a dictatorship?", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. My guest, Robert Kagan, used to describe Donald Trump as antiliberal. Then he upped it to authoritarian, and now Kagan says that Trump is getting close to becoming a dictator. Kagan writes, \"President Trump has managed in just one year to destroy the American order that was and has weakened America's ability to protect its interests in the world that will be. Americans thought defending the liberal world order was too expensive. Wait until they start paying for what comes next,\" unquote. We're going to talk about that and Trump's domestic violations of norms, laws and the Constitution, including the ICE immigration crackdowns in cities like Minneapolis. Kagan says some of the Trump administration policies are rooted in the history of Christian white supremacy. Robert Kagan is a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution, a contributing writer at The Atlantic, a former longtime Washington Post columnist, a former Republican and the author of many books. The paperback edition of his latest book is titled \"Rebellion: Donald Trump And The Antiliberal Tradition In America.\" We recorded our interview yesterday. Robert Kagan, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5699388", "date": "2026-02-04", "guest": "Robert Kagan", "title": "Is the U.S. heading into a dictatorship?", "question_index": 1, "text": "So you've recently said we're heading into a dictatorship, if we're not already in one. And you've described Trump over the years as antiliberal and then authoritarian, and now to moving in the direction of dictator or already maybe one. So what promoted him to would-be dictator or maybe already one for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5699388", "date": "2026-02-04", "guest": "Robert Kagan", "title": "Is the U.S. heading into a dictatorship?", "question_index": 2, "text": "He still insists that the 2020 election was stolen from him. And so now he announced on Dan Bongino's podcast - and Bongino had been the No. 2 at the FBI in the Trump administration, but now is back to being a podcaster. So Trump said that he wants to federalize elections in at least 15 states and called for Republican officials to oversee those states' elections.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I started warning that he was threatening to be a dictator back in November '23. And so pretty much everything that's happened since then, I think, was predictable, and I foresaw it. But I have "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5699388", "date": "2026-02-04", "guest": "Robert Kagan", "title": "Is the U.S. heading into a dictatorship?", "question_index": 3, "text": "Just describe a little bit what nationalizing the elections would mean and what - like, asking Republican officials to oversee elections. First of all, the Constitution says that states regulate elections and oversee elections, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. No. I mean, look. I think we're already well into a dictatorship. It's just a question of whether he will go ahead and, you know, basically disrupt the '26 elections, which I think he's made it "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5699388", "date": "2026-02-04", "guest": "Robert Kagan", "title": "Is the U.S. heading into a dictatorship?", "question_index": 4, "text": "And to have partisans overseeing it - like, how in the world can that be legal?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. I mean, it is the state's prerogative to decide how the elections are going to be conducted and how the votes are counted and all that kind of stuff. Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5699388", "date": "2026-02-04", "guest": "Robert Kagan", "title": "Is the U.S. heading into a dictatorship?", "question_index": 5, "text": "And meanwhile, in Fulton County, Georgia, the FBI has seized voting ballots and other documents related to voting. And Trump wants to do that in other states as well, including Minnesota, and this is to build a national voter file. What does that mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's not. It's not legal. We've moved out of the realm of legality. Everything now is about power. It's about pure power. And, you know, the fact that the Republican Party has become the party of dict"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5699388", "date": "2026-02-04", "guest": "Robert Kagan", "title": "Is the U.S. heading into a dictatorship?", "question_index": 6, "text": "Do you think what's happening in Minnesota with ICE is, in part, a way to scare people away from voting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, again, it's clear that he has no intention of allowing the elections to play out and allow a Democratic victory. And I think it's important to understand his motives here. He knows perfectly wel"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5699388", "date": "2026-02-04", "guest": "Robert Kagan", "title": "Is the U.S. heading into a dictatorship?", "question_index": 7, "text": "Can you just briefly list a few of the other actions Trump has taken that have led you to call him a dictator? First of all, just he personally - I think he really is a textbook definition of a megalomaniac. There is never enough power for him. He wants to have power over everybody, including the world, by the way, not just the United States. So there's the clear sense that you get from him that the Constitution means nothing to him, that elections mean nothing to him and that the only thing that he seeks is his own power - and wealth. But I think the power is more important. So there's the personality of Trump. But then, of course, there's all the things that he did in his first year, which we've sort of gotten used to.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Absolutely, and I think it's been a big mistake. And I somewhat fault the media for basically treating this like it's an - and the Democratic Party, too, for that matter - treating this like it's"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5699388", "date": "2026-02-04", "guest": "Robert Kagan", "title": "Is the U.S. heading into a dictatorship?", "question_index": 8, "text": "First year of second term.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Absolutely, and I think it's been a big mistake. And I somewhat fault the media for basically treating this like it's an - and the Democratic Party, too, for that matter - treating this like it's"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5699388", "date": "2026-02-04", "guest": "Robert Kagan", "title": "Is the U.S. heading into a dictatorship?", "question_index": 9, "text": "There are certain personal characteristics, too, of Trump's that seem to fit with autocratic or dictators in other countries who have taken over. And I wonder if you think that narcissism, lack of empathy, lying, interested in money, corruption in the administration, transactional - are those, like, typical characteristics of people who become autocrats or dictators?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Second term, first year, second - 2025, which is the remarkable - and I got to say, it will go down in history as really a remarkable destruction of the government that - his turning the Justice Depar"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5699388", "date": "2026-02-04", "guest": "Robert Kagan", "title": "Is the U.S. heading into a dictatorship?", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, let's take a short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Robert Kagan, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution, a contributing writer for The Atlantic and author of the book \"Rebellion: Donald Trump And The Antiliberal Tradition In America.\" We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They are. And obviously, there are parallels with other countries, but I think we need to recognize that this is very much an American - this is a homegrown dictatorship, if you will. I mean, the forc"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5699388", "date": "2026-02-04", "guest": "Robert Kagan", "title": "Is the U.S. heading into a dictatorship?", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Robert Kagan, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution, an author, mostly on foreign policy, and a contributing writer for The Atlantic. His latest article is titled \"America Vs. The World.\" Our interview was recorded yesterday. You write about how Trumpism relates to racism and white Christian supremacy. So how do you define white Christian supremacy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They are. And obviously, there are parallels with other countries, but I think we need to recognize that this is very much an American - this is a homegrown dictatorship, if you will. I mean, the forc"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5699388", "date": "2026-02-04", "guest": "Robert Kagan", "title": "Is the U.S. heading into a dictatorship?", "question_index": 12, "text": "How would what you describe as white Christian nationalism express itself during the writing of the Constitution? Now, we know that even, you know, Founding Fathers, like Thomas Jefferson, had slaves. So unless the enslaved people aren't really people, then all men are not created equal in the eyes of Founding Fathers, those who held slaves. But can you talk more about how you see white Christian nationalism expressing itself during the founding days and the writing of the Constitution?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Since the founding of the republic, there has always been a significant portion of the population that does not believe in the principles of the Declaration of Independence, does not believe that all "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5699388", "date": "2026-02-04", "guest": "Robert Kagan", "title": "Is the U.S. heading into a dictatorship?", "question_index": 13, "text": "Before we move on to foreign policy, which is your real focus, I want to ask you what you're expecting now of the midterms and the presidential election.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, obviously, the Constitution was a big contradiction because on the one hand - and by the way, the founders were aware of the contradiction in a way that I think subsequent generations maybe sort"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5699388", "date": "2026-02-04", "guest": "Robert Kagan", "title": "Is the U.S. heading into a dictatorship?", "question_index": 14, "text": "Do you think the courts will?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in the midterms, I fully expect Trump to use all the various levers of power that he controls as president to make sure that the Democrats cannot take power either in the House or in the Senate."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5699388", "date": "2026-02-04", "guest": "Robert Kagan", "title": "Is the U.S. heading into a dictatorship?", "question_index": 15, "text": "Do you think, if Trump does declare the Insurrection Act, that that would be the kind of, you know, emergency that would prevent the courts from stopping his action?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think the courts necessarily will. I mean, the various federal courts may, but the Supreme Court, I think, is - has demonstrated a willingness to let him do whatever he wants. And the minute a"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5699388", "date": "2026-02-04", "guest": "Robert Kagan", "title": "Is the U.S. heading into a dictatorship?", "question_index": 16, "text": "OK. It's time for another break, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Robert Kagan, a contributing writer for The Atlantic, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution and author of the book \"Rebellion: Donald Trump And The Antiliberal Tradition In America.\" We'll be back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I worry about that, yes. And again, it's not the courts. I'm sure there are plenty of courts who would say, you know, this is not appropriate. But if it gets to the Supreme Court, I'm afraid there are"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5699388", "date": "2026-02-04", "guest": "Robert Kagan", "title": "Is the U.S. heading into a dictatorship?", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Robert Kagan about why he thinks Trump is on his way to becoming a dictator based on Trump's foreign and domestic policies, his violations of laws and the Constitution and his constant desire for more money and power. Kagan is a contributing writer at The Atlantic, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution, a former longtime Washington Post columnist, a former Republican, and the author of many books, including his latest - \"Rebellion: Donald Trump And The Antiliberal Tradition In America.\" His latest article The Atlantic is titled \"America Vs. The World.\" So, let's talk about foreign policy, which is your area of expertise. Do you think that Trump has managed to end the NATO alliance without actually withdrawing from it, but by, like, insulting and defying NATO, wanting to buy Greenland, threatening Denmark and trying to make Canada the 51st state?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I worry about that, yes. And again, it's not the courts. I'm sure there are plenty of courts who would say, you know, this is not appropriate. But if it gets to the Supreme Court, I'm afraid there are"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5699388", "date": "2026-02-04", "guest": "Robert Kagan", "title": "Is the U.S. heading into a dictatorship?", "question_index": 18, "text": "I want to quote you. You write, (reading) the Trump administration has told Europeans to be ready to take over their own defense by 2027 and suggests that allies and strategic partners, including Japan, Taiwan and South Korea, should pay the U.S. for protection. Trump has launched aggressive tariff wars against virtually all of America's allies. He has waged ideological and political warfare against European governments and explicitly threatened territorial aggression against two NATO allies - Canada and Denmark. If NATO ends because NATO literally ends or it just ends in the sense that it doesn't really function anymore without the U.S., what would the consequences be, do you think, for the world and for the U.S. in particular?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I've been telling my European friends that they need to understand that NATO is over. I used to just focus on the fact that Trump certainly has no commitment to our Article 5 security commitment "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5699388", "date": "2026-02-04", "guest": "Robert Kagan", "title": "Is the U.S. heading into a dictatorship?", "question_index": 19, "text": "What do you mean by a multipolar world?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think that, you know, it's been so long since we lived in a genuinely multipolar world that I don't think people are ready for what that actually means."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5699388", "date": "2026-02-04", "guest": "Robert Kagan", "title": "Is the U.S. heading into a dictatorship?", "question_index": 20, "text": "I want to play an excerpt of a speech that Trump gave on January 21 in Davos. The World Economic Forum was held in Davos in January.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A multipolar world is one that is not the world we've lived in since World War II. The world we've lived in since World War II has been one where a very large number of once great powers like Britain,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5699388", "date": "2026-02-04", "guest": "Robert Kagan", "title": "Is the U.S. heading into a dictatorship?", "question_index": 21, "text": "What's your reaction to that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The United States is treated very unfairly by NATO. I want to tell you that. And when you think about it, nobody can dispute it. We give so much, and we get so little in return. And I've been a critic"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5699388", "date": "2026-02-04", "guest": "Robert Kagan", "title": "Is the U.S. heading into a dictatorship?", "question_index": 22, "text": "Also the example that we just heard of the Trump speech in Davos. So he's talking about NATO and how they've been unfair to us. And then he transitions to, it was a rigged election. Everybody knows that. And I think it's an example of mixing personal grievance with world affairs.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's sort of everything in a nutshell about Trump. First of all, his description of an ideal, I guess, America is one where he controls the press, he controls the elections and is, in effect, "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5699388", "date": "2026-02-04", "guest": "Robert Kagan", "title": "Is the U.S. heading into a dictatorship?", "question_index": 23, "text": "And what's your reaction to the way Trump does that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5699388", "date": "2026-02-04", "guest": "Robert Kagan", "title": "Is the U.S. heading into a dictatorship?", "question_index": 24, "text": "So nobody in the U.S. has prevented Trump from insisting that he needs and will get Greenland and that he intends on annexing Canada. I think he still intends that. I don't think he's withdrawn that, has he?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, again, there's nothing more important in Trump's world than Trump himself. And so everything is a function of him. And it would be one thing if he really were, let's say, an America First presid"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5699388", "date": "2026-02-04", "guest": "Robert Kagan", "title": "Is the U.S. heading into a dictatorship?", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well, let's take another short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Robert Kagan, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution. He's an author and a contributing writer for The Atlantic. His latest article in The Atlantic is titled \"America Vs. The World.\" We'll be back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. And I was sort of stunned, again, not to be critical of the American media, but when Trump said that he was, OK, maybe not going to invade Greenland, the media reported, OK, Trump rules out attack"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5699388", "date": "2026-02-04", "guest": "Robert Kagan", "title": "Is the U.S. heading into a dictatorship?", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview that I recorded yesterday with Robert Kagan, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution. He's an author and a contributing writer for The Atlantic. His latest article in The Atlantic is titled \"America Vs. The World.\" So you have been labeled in the past as a leader of the neoconservative movement. I know that's a word you don't particularly like. It's not a word that you coined. So what did people who called you a neoconservative mean? And how did you define yourself differently than the definition that was placed on you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. And I was sort of stunned, again, not to be critical of the American media, but when Trump said that he was, OK, maybe not going to invade Greenland, the media reported, OK, Trump rules out attack"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5699388", "date": "2026-02-04", "guest": "Robert Kagan", "title": "Is the U.S. heading into a dictatorship?", "question_index": 27, "text": "I want to quote something that you wrote. (Reading) Trump has managed in just one year to destroy the American order that was, and he has weakened Americans' ability to protect its interests in the world that will be. If Americans thought defending the liberal world order was too expensive, wait until they start paying for what comes next. What do you think is coming next?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there's so many - different people mean different things by neoconservative. Let me just start by saying what it is that I would characterize myself as believing, which is I believe that the fou"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5699388", "date": "2026-02-04", "guest": "Robert Kagan", "title": "Is the U.S. heading into a dictatorship?", "question_index": 28, "text": "One of the things that Trump seems to want is to say, hey, you take care of your territory. Other countries, you take care of yours. I'm interested - you know, Trump is interested - in the Americas, the Western Hemisphere, our part of the Western Hemisphere, that he's going to be the leader of that and ignore the people across the oceans. Does that sound like the right interpretation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Contrary to what Trump seems to think, we have benefited enormously from the vast number of alliances and strategic partners that we've had over the world. In my article, I cite a Chinese strategic th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5699388", "date": "2026-02-04", "guest": "Robert Kagan", "title": "Is the U.S. heading into a dictatorship?", "question_index": 29, "text": "Well, let's take another short break here, and then we'll talk some more. If you're just joining us, my guest is Robert Kagan, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution. He's an author and a contributing writer for The Atlantic. His latest article in The Atlantic is titled \"America Vs. The World.\" We'll be back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, that is certainly what they have said. That's sort of what the national security strategy sounds like. And so that, if they were doing that, would be like, well, welcome back to America "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5699388", "date": "2026-02-04", "guest": "Robert Kagan", "title": "Is the U.S. heading into a dictatorship?", "question_index": 30, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Robert Kagan, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution, an author mostly on foreign policy and a contributing writer for The Atlantic. His latest article is titled \"America Vs. The World.\" Our interview was recorded yesterday. So this might be a depressing answer to this question. But, you know, Martin Luther King said, the arc of history is long, but it bends towards justice. I don't think you believe that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, that is certainly what they have said. That's sort of what the national security strategy sounds like. And so that, if they were doing that, would be like, well, welcome back to America "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5699388", "date": "2026-02-04", "guest": "Robert Kagan", "title": "Is the U.S. heading into a dictatorship?", "question_index": 31, "text": "In terms of the Civil Rights Movement - and it was also, like, very effective protests. It was television showing police fire-hosing...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When Martin Luther King was saying those things, that did appear to be the story of the United States, right? I mean, we had moved from slavery to Jim Crow to the Civil Rights Movement. That was progr"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5699388", "date": "2026-02-04", "guest": "Robert Kagan", "title": "Is the U.S. heading into a dictatorship?", "question_index": 32, "text": "...Protesters, dogs sicced on protesters. The whole world saw that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5699388", "date": "2026-02-04", "guest": "Robert Kagan", "title": "Is the U.S. heading into a dictatorship?", "question_index": 33, "text": "It was very hard to defend that. And you want to see Americans stand up for democracy. What actions would you like to see Americans take? How do individuals stand up for democracy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5699388", "date": "2026-02-04", "guest": "Robert Kagan", "title": "Is the U.S. heading into a dictatorship?", "question_index": 34, "text": "Do you think America will ever return to what, like, you've described as normal? Or do you think when things change, assuming they change, that we'll return to something different, but not what we had in the past?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, obviously, we see very brave people on the streets of Minneapolis and elsewhere in the country, where they are facing down this brute squad known as ICE. But I also would like to talk ab"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5699388", "date": "2026-02-04", "guest": "Robert Kagan", "title": "Is the U.S. heading into a dictatorship?", "question_index": 35, "text": "Robert Kagan, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, lots of people have been talking about this, and I think it's a very interesting question. You know, what the Trump administration has done to the federal bureaucracy and particularly, as I say,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5699388", "date": "2026-02-04", "guest": "Robert Kagan", "title": "Is the U.S. heading into a dictatorship?", "question_index": 36, "text": "Robert Kagan is a contributing writer at The Atlantic and a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution. The paperback edition of his latest book is titled \"Rebellion: Donald Trump And The Antiliberal Tradition In America.\" His latest Atlantic article is titled \"America Vs. The World.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, filmmaker Julia Loktev talks about her documentary \"My Undesirable Friends,\" which follows young Russian journalists resisting Putin's regime before the invasion of Ukraine and the impossible choices they face when dissent means prison or exile. I hope you'll join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram at @nprfreshair. FRESH AIR's executive producers are Danny Miller and Sam Briger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez-Wisler. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, thank you."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712289", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Nigerian musician Fela Kuti used music as a weapon against dictatorship", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. You may know my guest, Jad Abumrad, as the creator and former host of the public radio program and podcast Radiolab and the creator and host of the popular and Peabody Award-winning, nine-episode podcast series Dolly Parton's America. Now Jad has a terrific new series of episodes about the life and music of Fela Kuti. He's known as the father of Afrobeat. But music was also Fela's weapon against the colonial values that tried to civilize Nigerians, erase African culture and inflict punishment, often brutally, to keep Nigerians in line. With Fela's danceable, almost trance-like grooves and political lyrics, he started a youth movement that rebelled against the repressive postcolonial government and military. For that, he was jailed about 100 times, beaten frequently, enduring multiple broken bones, leaving scars all over his body. The military breached the electric fence that protected his compound, threw his mother out a second-story window and burned his home to the ground. He's also a problematic figure. He fashioned himself into what you might describe as a cult leader. He had 27 female backup singers and dancers and married all of them in one day. He didn't believe AIDS was real, advised men not to use condoms and even wrote a song about it. And when he contracted AIDS, he denied that was possible. We'll talk about all that and how his music continues to get people listening and dancing and rebelling against injustice. Jad, welcome back to FRESH AIR. I really love the series. And I really learned a lot from it, so thank you", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712289", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Nigerian musician Fela Kuti used music as a weapon against dictatorship", "question_index": 1, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712289", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Nigerian musician Fela Kuti used music as a weapon against dictatorship", "question_index": 2, "text": "You know, Fela's music, it was dance music, it was trance music and it was music that creates Afrobeat. And it inspires a rebellious youth movement, rebelling against colonialist thinking, standing up against the authoritarian government, the police, the military. I'd like to ask you to describe those elements of his music.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's great to be here. And that means a lot, Terry. Thank you."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712289", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Nigerian musician Fela Kuti used music as a weapon against dictatorship", "question_index": 3, "text": "Yeah. And part of the reason why his music made such a profound effect on young listeners was that this is stuff you weren't taught in school, because the schools didn't emphasize or teach about African history or colonialism.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, early on, what he would do is he would build a loop slowly. You know, he would bring in the bass. And then he'd bring in the congas, and then he'd bring in the shaker, and then he'd bring in t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712289", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Nigerian musician Fela Kuti used music as a weapon against dictatorship", "question_index": 4, "text": "So here's what I'd like to do, to give listeners who aren't familiar with Fela's music, I want to play something that will show the repetition, the layering, and then segue into his most political song that got him into the most trouble, which is called \"Zombie.\" So to set it up, we're going to start with \"Authority Stealing.\" And this will show you a very compressed version of the layering in his music. And imagine that - imagine each of those layers spreading out for, like, 5 minutes each or more. And then we'll segue into \"Zombie.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, I think, Terry, it wasn't really - it wasn't even until much later, 2025, that history was mandated to be taught in schools. It was always seen as a sort of superfluous subject. You know"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712289", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Nigerian musician Fela Kuti used music as a weapon against dictatorship", "question_index": 5, "text": "That was \"Authority Stealing.\" And this is Fela's song \"Zombie.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Non-English language spoken)."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712289", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Nigerian musician Fela Kuti used music as a weapon against dictatorship", "question_index": 6, "text": "So that was two tracks, two separate tracks, \"Authority Stealing\" followed by \"Zombie.\" So tell us why \"Zombie\" was so important and dangerous.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Zombie, oh, zombie. Zombie, oh, zombie. Tell them to go straight, joro, jara, joro. No break, no job, no sense, joro, jara, joro. Tell them to go kill, joro, jara, joro. No break, no job, no"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712289", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Nigerian musician Fela Kuti used music as a weapon against dictatorship", "question_index": 7, "text": "So Fela grows up in a postcolonial environment that still practices a lot of colonial values. His grandfather translated Anglican hymns into Yoruba, the Yoruba language, and Fela's mother and father had a school that basically followed the colonial education practices. And I want to talk a little bit about his mother, Funmilayo Ransome-Kuti. Because before Fela became political, she had a women's club which taught women Christian values and how to be a good Christian wife. But then women from the market who sold fabric started coming, and she realized they don't know how to read. So she organized a literacy class to teach them how to read. And through that, she found out about the problems they were having, including the tax that the government had put on them that they couldn't afford to pay. And so she organizes this protest movement. Fela's mother organizes this tremendously powerful protest movement. Can you describe the movement?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess every artist has their sort of anthem, and for Fela, \"Zombie\" is that song. Came out in 1976. And this was at a time when he was getting into repeated clashes with the authority. There was - a"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712289", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Nigerian musician Fela Kuti used music as a weapon against dictatorship", "question_index": 8, "text": "Genitals.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. This is one of the aspects of the history that we dug into that just is so fascinating. He would have been about 8 or 9 at this point, and he's - you know, he's going to these - organizing meeti"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712289", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Nigerian musician Fela Kuti used music as a weapon against dictatorship", "question_index": 9, "text": "It's really a remarkable story. And do people remember the role that she played?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. There you go - to overwhelm him. Really raunchy, hard-hitting lyrics, and they would sing them one after the other. And Fela was with her, we think. And so it's interesting to think of his later"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712289", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Nigerian musician Fela Kuti used music as a weapon against dictatorship", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, we need to take a short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jad Abumrad. We're talking about his new podcast about the father of Afrobeat, the Nigerian musician Fela Kuti. It's called \"Fela: Fear No Man.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yes and no. There are - you will find people who know the story. But more often than not, what we found is that people would refer to her simply as Fela's mother. So she has been reduced a bit '"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712289", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Nigerian musician Fela Kuti used music as a weapon against dictatorship", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jad Abumrad, the creator and former host of the public radio program and podcast \"Radiolab\" and the creator and host of the Peabody Award-winning series \"Dolly Parton's America.\" His new series is about the Nigerian musician Fela Kuti. It's called \"Fela Kuti: Fear No Man.\" Once Fela starts really understanding more about what his music is about, he creates a club called the Shrine, and it's mobbed. I mean, once people hear his music, they want to hear more. And he creates what he calls the Kalakuta Republic, which includes his compound. And by calling it the Kalakuta Republic, it's basically a government-free zone where he - people smoke marijuana, even though there's, like, a steep penalty if you're caught. But it's his compound, and it's his, like, free space, and they get away with it. How did he pull that off?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yes and no. There are - you will find people who know the story. But more often than not, what we found is that people would refer to her simply as Fela's mother. So she has been reduced a bit '"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712289", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Nigerian musician Fela Kuti used music as a weapon against dictatorship", "question_index": 12, "text": "So one of the things you point out in the podcast is that, you know, his songs got him into a lot of trouble. And what would happen is he'd write a song. Then he'd be, like, jailed or beaten for it. Then he'd write a song about being jailed or beaten or, you know, whatever was done to him. They'd punish him for that song, and then he'd write a song about the punishment. So it was like he - answer songs to the military", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, he is a case study in courage like no other. So I think part of it was just the chutzpah that he brought to the cause. I also think part of it was this is a moment after a brutal civil war tha"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712289", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Nigerian musician Fela Kuti used music as a weapon against dictatorship", "question_index": 13, "text": ", you know?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, he is a case study in courage like no other. So I think part of it was just the chutzpah that he brought to the cause. I also think part of it was this is a moment after a brutal civil war tha"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712289", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Nigerian musician Fela Kuti used music as a weapon against dictatorship", "question_index": 14, "text": "They were writing answer songs to each other. Do you have a favorite example of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712289", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Nigerian musician Fela Kuti used music as a weapon against dictatorship", "question_index": 15, "text": "So let's hear \"Kalakuta Show.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, one of my favorite Fela trickster song - I think of them as trickster songs, where he was sort of, like, playing tricks on the authority, and then they'd come and raid him, and then he'd mak"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712289", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Nigerian musician Fela Kuti used music as a weapon against dictatorship", "question_index": 16, "text": "That was Fela Kuti, his song, \"Kalakuta Show.\" OK, we have to take a short break here, and then we'll get back to my interview with Jad Abumrad, the creator and host of the new series \"Fela Kuti: Fear No Man.\" I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) One day, Kalakuta Show."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712289", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Nigerian musician Fela Kuti used music as a weapon against dictatorship", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Jad Abumrad, the creator and former host of the public radio program and podcast Radiolab, and the creator and host of the Peabody Award-winning podcast series Dolly Parton's America. Now he's the creator and host of a new podcast series about the Nigerian musician Fela Kuti, who became the father of Afrobeat in the 1970s. The series is called \"Fela Kuti: Fear No Man.\" His music was catchy. And his brave political lyrics about Nigeria's repressive government and military inspired a youth movement to rebel. He paid a huge price for this. The police and military repeatedly jailed him, beat him, left scars all over his body, burned down his home and threw his mother out a second-story window. Fela was also a problematic figure who turned himself into what you might call a cult leader, thought he was invulnerable, married in one day 27 of his backup singers and dancers and didn't believe AIDS was real, even when he was dying of it. So here's where Fela loses me. He puts together a group of fantastic women dancers and backup singers. And that's part of the reason why people want to see him perform, because it means seeing these women sing and dance and their elaborate makeup and face paint and costumes. But he eventually marries 27 of them in one day. I want to play an excerpt from the podcast in which several people talk about how they felt about the 27 wives.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) One day, Kalakuta Show."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712289", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Nigerian musician Fela Kuti used music as a weapon against dictatorship", "question_index": 18, "text": "What do you make of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "FEAR NO MAN\")"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712289", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Nigerian musician Fela Kuti used music as a weapon against dictatorship", "question_index": 19, "text": "So you spoke to, I think, a couple of the women who used to be in the band and married to him. And one of them said, he didn't marry the women, he married the women to his band, which is like what you were saying. What else did you hear from the women you spoke to who had been in his band and married to him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, it's really - Fela's relationship with women is hard to wrap your mind around. All I can say is that it was very important for us when we were reporting this series to speak with those women. "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712289", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Nigerian musician Fela Kuti used music as a weapon against dictatorship", "question_index": 20, "text": "So we have to talk about FESTAC. FESTAC was supposed to be a joyous festival, basically, I think, like, uniting Black people from around the world.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Yeah, we spoke to three of the four that are still alive, as far as we can tell. And what was really interesting is that they all insisted that they were there by choice, however we might judge"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712289", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Nigerian musician Fela Kuti used music as a weapon against dictatorship", "question_index": 21, "text": "And this festival of joy is run by a dictator", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it was sort of the - if you imagine Woodstock, but thinking of it as a cultural festival focused on the sort of diaspora. Nigeria, at that point, was flush in oil money. And they wanted to sort "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712289", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Nigerian musician Fela Kuti used music as a weapon against dictatorship", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it was sort of the - if you imagine Woodstock, but thinking of it as a cultural festival focused on the sort of diaspora. Nigeria, at that point, was flush in oil money. And they wanted to sort "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712289", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Nigerian musician Fela Kuti used music as a weapon against dictatorship", "question_index": 23, "text": "So, Fela was put on the planning committee. And then he made a list of demands. Tell us about a couple of the demands.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it's run by a dictator for, you know, I think what some would say, the wrong reasons."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712289", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Nigerian musician Fela Kuti used music as a weapon against dictatorship", "question_index": 24, "text": "So what's the short version of how Fela's counter-festival to FESTAC led to the burning of his house?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. He had a nine-point list that he presented to the committee. I think the committee brought him on because they really couldn't not have him on it. He was the most popular Nigerian musician, most"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712289", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Nigerian musician Fela Kuti used music as a weapon against dictatorship", "question_index": 25, "text": "The military threw his mother during this raid out a second-story window. Amazingly, she survived - first, in a coma, and she was never herself again. She died a year later. It's so horrible to think about. And Fela wrote a song that's basically about his mother and being thrown out the window. So I want to play an excerpt of that. It's called \"Unknown Soldier.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The short version is that a few days after the festival closed, one of Fela's boys - one of the area boys, as they were called - gets into a minor traffic conflict with a policeman. He flees to Fela's"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712289", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Nigerian musician Fela Kuti used music as a weapon against dictatorship", "question_index": 26, "text": "So that was Fela doing his song \"Unknown Soldier\" about his mother being thrown out the second-story window by the military, who raided the compound and burned Fela's home down. So after his mother dies, it transforms him. He misses her so much. She was the person who really supported his vision of change. And like you said earlier, he lost a lot of his following because people didn't want to be exposed to this kind of brutality and death. And his music changed. He became more spiritual. His music became more spiritual or ambient. I don't know what - how you'd describe it exactly. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Influential mama. Them throw my mama out from window. Them kill my mama. Them kill my mama. Them kill my mama. Them kill my mama. Them kill my mama. Them carry everybody. Them carry everybod"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712289", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Nigerian musician Fela Kuti used music as a weapon against dictatorship", "question_index": 27, "text": "Slower.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd say slower, you know?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712289", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Nigerian musician Fela Kuti used music as a weapon against dictatorship", "question_index": 28, "text": "What kind of spirituality did he pursue?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Slower and heavier, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712289", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Nigerian musician Fela Kuti used music as a weapon against dictatorship", "question_index": 29, "text": "Well, let's take a break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jad Abumrad. We're talking about his new podcast limited series about the father of Afrobeat, the Nigerian musician Fela Kuti. It's called \"Fela Kuti: Fear No Man.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, from somebody who was so outward-looking and so intensely political, he kind of turned inward. And what you hear in his music, it's much more story-based. You know, he would tell stories of "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712289", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Nigerian musician Fela Kuti used music as a weapon against dictatorship", "question_index": 30, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Jad Abumrad, the creator and former host of the public radio program and podcast \"Radiolab\" and the creator and host of the Peabody Award-winning series \"Dolly Parton's America.\" Now he's the creator and host of a new series, a limited series about the father of Afrobeat, Fela Kuti. Another place where Fela really loses me, he's an AIDS denier. You know, AIDS is kind of raging in Africa at the time, and he doesn't believe it's real. And then he contracts AIDS himself and won't admit that he has it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, from somebody who was so outward-looking and so intensely political, he kind of turned inward. And what you hear in his music, it's much more story-based. You know, he would tell stories of "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712289", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Nigerian musician Fela Kuti used music as a weapon against dictatorship", "question_index": 31, "text": "So his children were - his oldest children weren't sure whether they should have a big, public funeral or not because he had lost a lot of his popularity, and, you know, he died of AIDS. So they decide finally to hold a big funeral, and, like, tens of thousands of people show up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It is upsetting. But, you know, if there's a silver lining in that particular anecdote - I mean, you have to dig a little bit to get to it - when he died, Yeni and Femi initially were very reluc"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712289", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Nigerian musician Fela Kuti used music as a weapon against dictatorship", "question_index": 32, "text": "Wow. That much?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, reports are anywhere from 200,000 to 2 million."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712289", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Nigerian musician Fela Kuti used music as a weapon against dictatorship", "question_index": 33, "text": "Your series made me think about how art, in some ways, has a lot more power in authoritarian governments that want to ban art because when something is taboo and you're not allowed to hear it, creating it and hearing it are very subversive acts.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It completely shut down the city for days. And a massive crowd marches from Tafawa Balewa Square where there was a wake, to the shrine, where the family was paying their last respects, and then "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712289", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Nigerian musician Fela Kuti used music as a weapon against dictatorship", "question_index": 34, "text": "Like, in America, in the U.S., we're maybe heading in that direction.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712289", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Nigerian musician Fela Kuti used music as a weapon against dictatorship", "question_index": 35, "text": "Well, it's been great to talk with you, Jad. Thank you so much, and congratulations on the series. And I want to say to our listeners, we covered, you know, several aspects of Fela's life in this interview, but there's really so much more and so much, like, fascinating detail that we couldn't possibly fit into one less-than-an-hour episode when Jad's series is, what, 12 episodes?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, you know, you and I are having this conversation the day after the Super Bowl, and Bad Bunny, you know, gets out there, and he ends his performance marching with people holding a series "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712289", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Nigerian musician Fela Kuti used music as a weapon against dictatorship", "question_index": 36, "text": "To me, certainly. So thank you so much. It's been a pleasure to talk with you again.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it's quite a deep dive, but worth it, I hope."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712289", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Jad Abumrad", "title": "How Nigerian musician Fela Kuti used music as a weapon against dictatorship", "question_index": 37, "text": "Jad Abumrad's new podcast is called \"Fela Kuti: Fear No Man.\" After we take a short break, we reluctantly say goodbye to our long-term executive producer, Danny Miller. He's retiring. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Thank you so much, Terry, for having me on."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712354", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "'Fresh Air' staff bids farewell to longtime executive producer Danny Miller", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Today marks a turning point in FRESH AIR history. Our long-time executive producer Danny Miller is retiring. We've been celebrating how he's led the show through good times and hard times and what he's done professionally and personally for each of us who's ever been part of the FRESH AIR team. But we're all so sad he's leaving. I'd like to take a moment to speak personally about what Danny means to me. FRESH AIR started as a local program on WHYY in Philadelphia. Back in 1975, when I became the host, it was a live, three-hour show five days a week, and the staff was me. In 1978, when Danny applied to be an intern on the show, he was studying film and music therapy at Temple University and was the pianist in a local salsa band. I interviewed him for the intern position, and we hit it off. He bummed a cigarette from me, and I was happy to give him one since I had bummed cigarettes each time I had tried to quit. As we talked, we realized we shared a sense of humor, we both loved and listened to a lot of jazz and liked a lot of the same movies, most especially \"Taxi Driver.\" It was clear we'd have similar judgment in who we should book on the show. You know the expression that if you're an intern, make yourself indispensable? Danny managed to do that pretty immediately, recommending guests, booking guests, organizing things. He even invited me over to dinner and served what I like to think of as baked eggplant a la sponge. But I forgave him for that. Now he's a good cook, famous, among other things, for his chicken soup. I remember we drove together to the bar at an inn in the Poconos so I could record an interview with the pianist John Coates for NPR to use in its concert program, Jazz Alive! Before driving there, when Danny and I met at the radio station, he showed up in a bright yellow sports jacket that was also too large. It made me wonder, maybe I misjudged his sensibility, until I realized he'd pranked me to see how I'd react and then put on his real jacket. After he graduated, our then station manager, Bill Siemering, understood how indispensable Danny was, and he kept managing to find hidden money to hire Danny part time and eventually full time as a producer. When FRESH AIR became a national show in 1987, Danny became its executive producer. There were so many changes we had to make in the show, and then we faced so many changes in the world, all of which Danny led us through. This included the First Gulf War, 9/11, the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, political crises. He became a father not long after we went national. And, at the time, he was the only parent working on the show. As time went on and there were many more FRESH AIR babies, Danny typically managed to come up with ways for them to stay on the show while still being good parents. He built in a measure of flexibility, like sharing a position with another new parent from our team, allowing each of them to work half time. When it came to what we broadcast on the show, Danny was the final word about what we actually put on the air. He always made sure we were being fair to the guest and the subject at hand. He was never a prude about what language our guests could use on the show, but he was prudent and always knew when to call someone for legal advice. In addition to all that, he was like the FRESH AIR family therapist. We all brought our problems to him, and he always did his best to help solve them, even when it meant more work for him, which it typically did. He made a lot of personal sacrifices to keep things running as smoothly as possible, including working lots of nights and weekends over many years. To me, Danny is more than a great executive producer - I think of him as a brother, and I will continue to think of him that way now that he's leaving the show. It's a strange time for me. Danny became an intern in January 1978. Just a few weeks later, I started seeing my future husband, Francis Davis. Francis died in April, and now just a few months later, Danny is retiring. That's a lot to process. I won't get to see Danny and work with him every day, but that won't mean he's absent from my life. I plan on scheduling many future dinners with him. We at FRESH AIR are also extraordinarily lucky that Sam Briger is taking over as our executive producer, a role he'd already started while Danny stayed on to help with the transition. I'm positive there is no one better in the world to take on the role. Sam has been part of the FRESH AIR team for about 21 years. During those years, his first child was born. That son is now in college. Sam knows the show inside-out, having worked as an associate producer, our book interview producer and managing producer. He's smart, funny and a good musician. He's wise and calm, even when there's a crisis, and everyone on our show loves him. And who else, at one of our end-of-the-year holiday potlucks, would have made a gift for Danny of a LEGO version of a climactic moment in \"Taxi Driver.\" So I don't want to hog the mic any further because everyone on our show wants a chance to thank Danny.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712354", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "'Fresh Air' staff bids farewell to longtime executive producer Danny Miller", "question_index": 1, "text": "FRESH AIR's new executive producer is Sam Briger.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712354", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "'Fresh Air' staff bids farewell to longtime executive producer Danny Miller", "question_index": 2, "text": "FRESH AIR's technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Wait. He's not going on vacation? I thought he was going on vacation. Danny, don't let us miss you too much. Come back real soon."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712354", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "'Fresh Air' staff bids farewell to longtime executive producer Danny Miller", "question_index": 3, "text": "Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Danny, we love you so much. Don't leave us with Sam."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712354", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "'Fresh Air' staff bids farewell to longtime executive producer Danny Miller", "question_index": 4, "text": "...Ann Marie Baldonado...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And you left us with Sam? We'll be in really good hands. See you around the hood."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712354", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "'Fresh Air' staff bids farewell to longtime executive producer Danny Miller", "question_index": 5, "text": "...Lauren Krenzel...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Danny, we're going to miss you so much, but I'm here to say, some people come back."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712354", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "'Fresh Air' staff bids farewell to longtime executive producer Danny Miller", "question_index": 6, "text": "...Therese Madden...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Come back to see us, Danny, soon and often."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712354", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "'Fresh Air' staff bids farewell to longtime executive producer Danny Miller", "question_index": 7, "text": "...Monique Nazareth...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712354", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "'Fresh Air' staff bids farewell to longtime executive producer Danny Miller", "question_index": 8, "text": "...Thea Chaloner...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Danny, I've truly loved working with you all these years. Thank you for everything, and enjoy retirement."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712354", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "'Fresh Air' staff bids farewell to longtime executive producer Danny Miller", "question_index": 9, "text": "...Susan Nyakundi...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Danny, I'll miss your snacks. I'll miss our talks."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712354", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "'Fresh Air' staff bids farewell to longtime executive producer Danny Miller", "question_index": 10, "text": "...Anna Bauman...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for everything, Danny. We'll miss you in the office but hope to see you around the neighborhood soon."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712354", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "'Fresh Air' staff bids farewell to longtime executive producer Danny Miller", "question_index": 11, "text": "...And Nico Gonzalez-Wisler.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you for all the mugs with our faces on it. Thank you, Danny."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712354", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "'Fresh Air' staff bids farewell to longtime executive producer Danny Miller", "question_index": 12, "text": "Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for everything, Danny. We'll miss you."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712354", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "'Fresh Air' staff bids farewell to longtime executive producer Danny Miller", "question_index": 13, "text": "Roberta Shorrock directs the show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Danny, I will always associate razor blades with you - not in a murder way."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712354", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "'Fresh Air' staff bids farewell to longtime executive producer Danny Miller", "question_index": 14, "text": "Our co-host is Tonya Mosley.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Going to miss you, Danny."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5712354", "date": "2026-02-12", "guest": "Sam Briger", "title": "'Fresh Air' staff bids farewell to longtime executive producer Danny Miller", "question_index": 15, "text": "I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You better take Teams off of your computer and go on a real vacation. Happy retirement, Danny."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5713420", "date": "2026-02-13", "guest": "Ken Peplowski", "title": "Remembering clarinetist and tenor saxophonist Ken Peplowski", "question_index": 0, "text": "Ken Peplowski, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli. Ken Peplowski, the clarinetist and tenor saxophonist whose career spanned from the Benny Goodman Orchestra to decades of his own recordings and appearances, die"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5713420", "date": "2026-02-13", "guest": "Ken Peplowski", "title": "Remembering clarinetist and tenor saxophonist Ken Peplowski", "question_index": 1, "text": "Well, you actually played with Benny Goodman in the last part of Goodman's life. How old were each of you at the time?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. Nice to be here."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5713420", "date": "2026-02-13", "guest": "Ken Peplowski", "title": "Remembering clarinetist and tenor saxophonist Ken Peplowski", "question_index": 2, "text": "Did you play clarinet or tenor?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This was about 1986, and I would have been 26 at the time, and Benny was around 80 years old. And I was frightened to death, frankly, working with him because I'd heard all these stories about him, an"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5713420", "date": "2026-02-13", "guest": "Ken Peplowski", "title": "Remembering clarinetist and tenor saxophonist Ken Peplowski", "question_index": 3, "text": "What's your attitude toward playing repertory music? Do you try to keep it true to the original recording or use the original arrangement or recording as a jumping-off point?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I played tenor. And, you know, there's a little bit of clarinet doubling. But I gave him some tapes that I'd done playing clarinet, and I guess that was the basis of him telling these people that "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5713420", "date": "2026-02-13", "guest": "Ken Peplowski", "title": "Remembering clarinetist and tenor saxophonist Ken Peplowski", "question_index": 4, "text": "Were you exposed to Benny Goodman records from your father's collection when you were growing up?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Ken Peplowski speaking to Terry Gross in 1999. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1999 interview with Ken Peplowski. The jazz clarinetist and tenor sax"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5713420", "date": "2026-02-13", "guest": "Ken Peplowski", "title": "Remembering clarinetist and tenor saxophonist Ken Peplowski", "question_index": 5, "text": "How did you end up playing clarinet?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. My father was an amateur musician. He was very surprisingly open musically 'cause he was a very conservative guy otherwise. But we all in the family listened to everything from Benny Goodman to "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5713420", "date": "2026-02-13", "guest": "Ken Peplowski", "title": "Remembering clarinetist and tenor saxophonist Ken Peplowski", "question_index": 6, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a funny thing. He - my father brought home a trumpet, tried to play it, gave it up in frustration, gave it to my brother. He became a trumpet player. He next brought home a clarinet, tried it, ga"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5713420", "date": "2026-02-13", "guest": "Ken Peplowski", "title": "Remembering clarinetist and tenor saxophonist Ken Peplowski", "question_index": 7, "text": "Did he play that himself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And you can get the letters..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5713420", "date": "2026-02-13", "guest": "Ken Peplowski", "title": "Remembering clarinetist and tenor saxophonist Ken Peplowski", "question_index": 8, "text": "So you started playing clarinet. Your brother was playing trumpet, and then you played in polka bands together when you were kids.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, he did. You can get the letters from the accordion players."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5713420", "date": "2026-02-13", "guest": "Ken Peplowski", "title": "Remembering clarinetist and tenor saxophonist Ken Peplowski", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. We played - we had a Polish polka band called the Harmony Kings. And I was, I think, around 10, and he was around 12. And we were like this little kids novelty act around Cleveland, Ohio, and we"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5713420", "date": "2026-02-13", "guest": "Ken Peplowski", "title": "Remembering clarinetist and tenor saxophonist Ken Peplowski", "question_index": 10, "text": "Now, I imagine playing clarinet excluded you from playing in a lot of rock 'n' roll bands.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was so close to this show it's frightening. But - and - but that - it's like learning how to swim by being thrown into the water. That's how I learned how to play. You know, there we were having to"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5713420", "date": "2026-02-13", "guest": "Ken Peplowski", "title": "Remembering clarinetist and tenor saxophonist Ken Peplowski", "question_index": 11, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, although we did do our version of \"Proud Mary\" with accordion and drums and clarinet. That was a killer with the audience."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5713420", "date": "2026-02-13", "guest": "Ken Peplowski", "title": "Remembering clarinetist and tenor saxophonist Ken Peplowski", "question_index": 12, "text": "Ken Peplowski, you've studied classical music, and before we talk about studying classical music, I want to feature you playing a classical piece. So let's listen to something from your CD, \"The Other Portrait.\" And this features you with the Bulgarian National Symphony. We'll hear you playing the first movement of \"Dance Preludes\" by the composer Witold Lutoslawski.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But yeah, it did exclude me from that. But I took up saxophone a few years after the clarinet because of that, actually, because it fit in more with rock music and with more of the old standards. So I"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5713420", "date": "2026-02-13", "guest": "Ken Peplowski", "title": "Remembering clarinetist and tenor saxophonist Ken Peplowski", "question_index": 13, "text": "Clarinet is Ken Peplowski from his CD, \"The Other Portrait.\" Ken, did you study classical music because you planned on playing classical music, or did you do it just for help with your technique?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But yeah, it did exclude me from that. But I took up saxophone a few years after the clarinet because of that, actually, because it fit in more with rock music and with more of the old standards. So I"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5713420", "date": "2026-02-13", "guest": "Ken Peplowski", "title": "Remembering clarinetist and tenor saxophonist Ken Peplowski", "question_index": 14, "text": "How do you think studying classical technique helped you playing jazz?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A little bit of both. I had a great teacher early on in Cleveland, a man named Al Blazer, who really impressed upon me the need to learn a lot of the classical approach to playing and how it would hel"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5713420", "date": "2026-02-13", "guest": "Ken Peplowski", "title": "Remembering clarinetist and tenor saxophonist Ken Peplowski", "question_index": 15, "text": "There's a piece of yours I want to play from an earlier CD called \"The Natural Touch,\" and this is a clarinet-bass duet. And the song is \"How Deep Is The Ocean?\" And I want to play this 'cause I suspect that it really shows off some of the things that you learned with the help of studying classical technique, like the beautiful tone that you have. And also, some of the embellishments in your improvisation here sound like they might be inspired in part by some of the classical technique that you learned. Do you want to say anything about this before we hear it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because, again, to - it comes back to what I said before about Benny impressing upon us that sense of melodicism. You have to do the same thing - if you're playing a piece that is all written out that"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5713420", "date": "2026-02-13", "guest": "Ken Peplowski", "title": "Remembering clarinetist and tenor saxophonist Ken Peplowski", "question_index": 16, "text": "Let's hear it. This is clarinetist Ken Peplowski.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just that - well, you're absolutely right. Even now when I practice, it's mostly \u00e9tude, classical \u00e9tudes, and it all is information that goes into everything you do. So those little embellishments tha"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5713420", "date": "2026-02-13", "guest": "Ken Peplowski", "title": "Remembering clarinetist and tenor saxophonist Ken Peplowski", "question_index": 17, "text": "That's my guest, Ken Peplowski, on clarinet with Murray Wall on bass from Peplowski's 1992 CD, \"The Natural Touch.\" And with your own band, a lot of the repertoire that you play is songs, you know, old standards, and it's almost wrong to call them standards 'cause they're - a lot of them are songs that not that many people know. But they're real songs. They're not just, like, riff-based things...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just that - well, you're absolutely right. Even now when I practice, it's mostly \u00e9tude, classical \u00e9tudes, and it all is information that goes into everything you do. So those little embellishments tha"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5713420", "date": "2026-02-13", "guest": "Ken Peplowski", "title": "Remembering clarinetist and tenor saxophonist Ken Peplowski", "question_index": 18, "text": "...Or heads that people play just to improvise on. And I'm wondering what attracts you to song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5713420", "date": "2026-02-13", "guest": "Ken Peplowski", "title": "Remembering clarinetist and tenor saxophonist Ken Peplowski", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I have a very low boredom threshold."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5713420", "date": "2026-02-13", "guest": "Ken Peplowski", "title": "Remembering clarinetist and tenor saxophonist Ken Peplowski", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Honestly. And..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5713420", "date": "2026-02-13", "guest": "Ken Peplowski", "title": "Remembering clarinetist and tenor saxophonist Ken Peplowski", "question_index": 21, "text": "Do you like to learn the lyrics of a song when you're going to play it so you can think about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For me, if I'm bored standing up there playing, the audience has got to be asleep. So I want to - the kind of records I like - you know, it's - there's something about all those old writers. They cons"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5713420", "date": "2026-02-13", "guest": "Ken Peplowski", "title": "Remembering clarinetist and tenor saxophonist Ken Peplowski", "question_index": 22, "text": "Well, Ken Peplowski, I want to thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I really do. You know, it doesn't mean you have to memorize every word, but I think it's important to learn what was meant when they wrote the song, and then you can take what you want from it. B"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5720188", "date": "2026-02-20", "guest": "Unidentified Nurse", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Frederick Wiseman", "question_index": 0, "text": "Why have most of your films been about institutions?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry Gross spoke to Frederick Wiseman in 1986."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5720188", "date": "2026-02-20", "guest": "Unidentified Nurse", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Frederick Wiseman", "question_index": 1, "text": "Do you have a point of view about the place when you go in and start shooting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Why have they been about institutions? Well, because after I made \"Titicut Follies,\" which is a film about a prison for the criminally insane - or in the course of making that, I realized what you cou"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5720188", "date": "2026-02-20", "guest": "Unidentified Nurse", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Frederick Wiseman", "question_index": 2, "text": "Well, it's a less simplistic way of looking at things that there are good guys and bad guys", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I always have a point of view. But invariably, that point of view changes as a consequence of learning something, because most of the time, my point of view is based on very little knowledge or "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5720188", "date": "2026-02-20", "guest": "Unidentified Nurse", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Frederick Wiseman", "question_index": 3, "text": "on both sides of the fence. Do you find that a lot when you go into a place, that there aren't obvious good guys and bad guys?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I always have a point of view. But invariably, that point of view changes as a consequence of learning something, because most of the time, my point of view is based on very little knowledge or "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5720188", "date": "2026-02-20", "guest": "Unidentified Nurse", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Frederick Wiseman", "question_index": 4, "text": "And that the good and bad is a lot more ambiguous?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, very often. Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5720188", "date": "2026-02-20", "guest": "Unidentified Nurse", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Frederick Wiseman", "question_index": 5, "text": "I sometimes wonder why people or why the people at the top of an institution would let you film them", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, well, I mean, ambiguity and ambivalence rules the day because, you know, I mean, it's just like in our own experience or the way we act ourselves."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5720188", "date": "2026-02-20", "guest": "Unidentified Nurse", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Frederick Wiseman", "question_index": 6, "text": "because sometimes the people really don't end up looking very good. And you never know how you're going to come off if there's someone with a camera and a microphone recording everything that you do.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, well, I mean, ambiguity and ambivalence rules the day because, you know, I mean, it's just like in our own experience or the way we act ourselves."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5720188", "date": "2026-02-20", "guest": "Unidentified Nurse", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Frederick Wiseman", "question_index": 7, "text": "Which were those three?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, as someone - as a fellow once said, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And I've made - I've now made 18 films in this style. And only in three of those situations have the people giving me pe"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5720188", "date": "2026-02-20", "guest": "Unidentified Nurse", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Frederick Wiseman", "question_index": 8, "text": "And those are the most controversial ones that you did, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Primate,\" \"High School\" and \"Titicut Follies.\""}
{"id": "nx-s1-5720188", "date": "2026-02-20", "guest": "Unidentified Nurse", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Frederick Wiseman", "question_index": 9, "text": "You became a filmmaker when you were in your 30s. Your first career was as a lawyer. It's always a hard decision, I think, for anybody who's already started one career to change into another, especially into one as financially risky as documentary filmmaking. Why did you want to enter into that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, they're controversial because - in part, at least, because the people that were in them originally liked them, and then subsequently were put on the defensive by what was written about t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5720188", "date": "2026-02-20", "guest": "Unidentified Nurse", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Frederick Wiseman", "question_index": 10, "text": "What'd you like about documentary movies? You didn't want to go to Hollywood and shoot Hollywood feature films.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I didn't like being a lawyer. I taught law, and I just simply didn't like it. And I was bored. And I guess I reached the reaching age of 30 and figured I'd better do something I liked. And I had"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5720188", "date": "2026-02-20", "guest": "Unidentified Nurse", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Frederick Wiseman", "question_index": 11, "text": "There were many - when you were starting in the mid-'60s or so, documentary filmmaking had, I think, just turned a corner. There was cinema verite. There were a lot of documentary filmmakers who were inventing a whole philosophy and style in approaching their subjects. What were some of the theories of that period that excited you? And what were some of the ones that you rejected and thought were really baloney", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Well, I'm interested in feature film, but not the kind that gets turned out by the studios. But it just seemed to me there was a whole, great, interesting world out there that hadn't been explored"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5720188", "date": "2026-02-20", "guest": "Unidentified Nurse", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Frederick Wiseman", "question_index": 12, "text": "and weren't really important?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Well, I'm interested in feature film, but not the kind that gets turned out by the studios. But it just seemed to me there was a whole, great, interesting world out there that hadn't been explored"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5720188", "date": "2026-02-20", "guest": "Unidentified Nurse", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Frederick Wiseman", "question_index": 13, "text": "None of the movies of yours that I've seen have any narration in it or any interview with it. In a lot of documentary films, the filmmaker will be off camera but will be asking questions to the person who is the subject of the movie or the subject of that scene. And the person will then be, like, discussing what they're doing or discussing their life or whatever in response to those off-camera questions. Why have you decided to, like, not either have narration or interview in your movies?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, I think the whole notion of cinema verite is a baloney notion, I mean, just to use a, I mean, French term like that. I mean, the notion that documentary film represents truth rather than"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5720188", "date": "2026-02-20", "guest": "Unidentified Nurse", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Frederick Wiseman", "question_index": 14, "text": "I'm trying to think about your position of not discussing what your intentions are with movies or what you finally think of the subject of your films. And I guess part of me is a little uncomfortable with that 'cause I always feel like your opinion is there, and it's up to us to crack the code", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I guess, you know, it comes down to something as simple as I don't like to be told what to think. And I think when this kind of documentary technique works, where you're photographing and record"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5720188", "date": "2026-02-20", "guest": "Unidentified Nurse", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Frederick Wiseman", "question_index": 15, "text": "of what it is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I guess, you know, it comes down to something as simple as I don't like to be told what to think. And I think when this kind of documentary technique works, where you're photographing and record"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5720188", "date": "2026-02-20", "guest": "Unidentified Nurse", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Frederick Wiseman", "question_index": 16, "text": "Then why wouldn't you want to just say it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't think it's so difficult. I don't think it's so - I mean, I don't mean to make it a mystery."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5720188", "date": "2026-02-20", "guest": "Unidentified Nurse", "title": "Remembering filmmaker Frederick Wiseman", "question_index": 17, "text": "OK. I want to thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, because I think it trivializes the subject and because I think if I've made the film correctly, the final film is an expression of a complex attitude toward a complex subject. And to the extent "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5727515", "date": "2026-02-26", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Is the U.S. headed toward a military conflict with Iran?", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. President Trump has said he'll use military force against Iran unless its government agrees to U.S. demands that Tehran shut down its nuclear program and pledges to never again pursue creating a nuclear weapon. As I record this this morning, negotiations are underway in Geneva between Iran's foreign minister and Trump's special envoy to the Middle East, Steve Witkoff, along with Trump's son-in-law, Jared Kushner, who doesn't have an official position within the current administration. Are we headed toward a military conflict with Iran? If so, would it be a limited series of airstrikes on select targets? Would the U.S. attempt regime change, resulting in a larger war? My guest David Sanger can't answer those questions, but he can tell us how we got to this precipice and what the consequences might be for the U.S. if the president does use military force. Sanger is a White House and national security correspondent for The New York Times. For years, his coverage has included Iran's nuclear program and U.S. and Israeli attempts to sabotage it. He's also the author of the book \"New Cold Wars.\" Although I'm recording this introduction this morning, we recorded our interview yesterday morning. We started with a clip of what President Trump said about Iran during his State of the Union address Tuesday.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5727515", "date": "2026-02-26", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Is the U.S. headed toward a military conflict with Iran?", "question_index": 1, "text": "David Sanger, welcome to FRESH AIR. So I'm sure you're waiting to hear more about Iran. So first of all, were you surprised at how buried it was within the speech and how little he had to say about it, considering we might be on the brink of war with Iran? And then tell us what you made of what he did say.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My preference is to solve this problem through diplomacy. But one thing is certain. I will never allow the world's No. 1 sponsor of terror, which they are, by far, to have a nuclear weapon. Can't let "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5727515", "date": "2026-02-26", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Is the U.S. headed toward a military conflict with Iran?", "question_index": 2, "text": "Of course, that doesn't mean you can believe them on it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Terry, wonderful to be back on with you. I was a little surprised. I had thought that he was going to set some kind of deadline for the Iranians because the backdrop to the speech, of course, wa"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5727515", "date": "2026-02-26", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Is the U.S. headed toward a military conflict with Iran?", "question_index": 3, "text": "Let me play what Trump said on June 21 in 2025, after bombing three major nuclear facilities in Iran. And Israel had attacked Iran in June in a war that lasted around 12 days, and the Trump administration moved forward with bombing those three nuclear facilities. So here's what Trump had to say June 21.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, you can't, Terry. And of course, the problem is not what they say. It is the evidence that has been gathered patiently over 20 years about work they did on weaponization, the conversion of nuclear"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5727515", "date": "2026-02-26", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Is the U.S. headed toward a military conflict with Iran?", "question_index": 4, "text": "And then after praising Israel and singling out Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and the U.S. military for their roles in the strike, Trump said this.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Our objective was the destruction of Iran's nuclear enrichment capacity and a stop to the nuclear threat posed by the world's No. 1 state sponsor of terror. Tonight, I can report to the world that the"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5727515", "date": "2026-02-26", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Is the U.S. headed toward a military conflict with Iran?", "question_index": 5, "text": "OK. So Trump seems to be contradicting himself because Steve Witkoff made it seem - one of Trump's negotiators on this. Witkoff made it seem like the bomb is imminent. We - you know, we got to move now. And Trump was saying that, you know, their ability was obliterated. So how do you make sense of this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "With all of that being said, this cannot continue. There will be either peace or there will be tragedy for Iran far greater than we have witnessed over the last eight days. Remember, there are many ta"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5727515", "date": "2026-02-26", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Is the U.S. headed toward a military conflict with Iran?", "question_index": 6, "text": "So what is this about? Why are we possibly on the brink of war with Iran?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, if it sounds contradictory, that's because it truly is contradictory. The attack on those three facilities - Natanz, Fordo and Isfahan - which were the largest enrichment facilities that Iran ha"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5727515", "date": "2026-02-26", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Is the U.S. headed toward a military conflict with Iran?", "question_index": 7, "text": "Especially without the consent of Congress.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Fascinating question. Because the president has offered four different rationales for the current military buildup there. One of them, the one you heard about the most in the State of the Union addres"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5727515", "date": "2026-02-26", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Is the U.S. headed toward a military conflict with Iran?", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, when you have so many, like, ships and missiles and weapons in striking distance of Iran, Iran would have every reason to perceive that as a threat.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it's interesting that in the State of the Union, he did not even briefly raise the question of whether Congress would give him an authorization to use military force, similar to what it provided t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5727515", "date": "2026-02-26", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Is the U.S. headed toward a military conflict with Iran?", "question_index": 9, "text": "The deal that Trump called the worst deal ever, and he pulled out of it right after he was elected.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They would, and they might make life easy for the president by striking first, right? That would be the easiest thing. I mean, imagine, for a moment, either because of a deliberate act or because of a"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5727515", "date": "2026-02-26", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Is the U.S. headed toward a military conflict with Iran?", "question_index": 10, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guess is David Sanger, and he's a White House and national security correspondent for The New York Times. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. And you could argue that had he not pulled out of it in 2018, that we might not be in this situation today because the fact of the matter is that while the deal was incredibly unpopular "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5727515", "date": "2026-02-26", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Is the U.S. headed toward a military conflict with Iran?", "question_index": 11, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with David Sanger, a White House correspondent and national security correspondent for The New York Times. And we're talking about the possibility of war with Iran. Well, let me see if I understand you correctly. The way you describe the rubble over the deeply buried uranium in Iran, it sounds like they'd have a lot of trouble moving forward with their nuclear weapons program. So it really doesn't pose a threat right now, and they have no missiles that can reach the U.S. So am I summing that up accurately?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. And you could argue that had he not pulled out of it in 2018, that we might not be in this situation today because the fact of the matter is that while the deal was incredibly unpopular "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5727515", "date": "2026-02-26", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Is the U.S. headed toward a military conflict with Iran?", "question_index": 12, "text": "But we're not talking about those missiles. Trump is talking about nuclear.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. Let's not underestimate their missile capability. It can reach parts of Europe. It can reach American bases throughout the Middle East, and we have a lot of them. And they have hit Ameri"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5727515", "date": "2026-02-26", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Is the U.S. headed toward a military conflict with Iran?", "question_index": 13, "text": "While we're talking about nuclear weapons, in one article you asked, like, is the era of nuclear weapons treaties over? Because one with Russia just expired. Can you talk a little bit about where Russia and China are in terms of nuclear weapons?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He is talking about two different things. He's talking about nuclear weapons and he's talking about their conventional existing missile force, and he frequently conflates the two. But those are the tw"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5727515", "date": "2026-02-26", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Is the U.S. headed toward a military conflict with Iran?", "question_index": 14, "text": "Let's take a short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is New York Times White House and national security correspondent David Sanger. Our interview was recorded yesterday. We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this gets to the central question of whether or not Iran is our most serious nuclear problem right now. And I think you could argue that the fastest-growing program is China's, and the one that "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5727515", "date": "2026-02-26", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Is the U.S. headed toward a military conflict with Iran?", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday morning about the possibility that President Trump will order a military attack on Iran, either limited airstrikes or an attempt at regime change, which would lead to a longer, possibly wider war. My guest, David Sanger, is explaining how we got to this point and what the consequences might be for the U.S. if we do get into a military conflict. As I record this introduction this morning, talks are underway in Geneva between Iran's foreign diplomat and Trump's special envoy to the Middle East, Steve Witkoff, along with Trump's son-in-law, Jared Kushner, who doesn't have an official position in the administration. So if we do attack Iran because the Trump administration is not satisfied with the outcome of the negotiations, there are several ways that this could go. One is limited bomb strikes against key places, and another is, go for the regime change. In terms of regime change, I mean, what I've been reading - and you might've been the one who wrote this - is that the Ayatollah Khamenei has a succession plan in place and plans on becoming a martyr. So, you know, it's not like you can - you could assassinate him. And, you know, it's not going to change anything. And there's probably a pretty long succession line there.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, this gets to the central question of whether or not Iran is our most serious nuclear problem right now. And I think you could argue that the fastest-growing program is China's, and the one that "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5727515", "date": "2026-02-26", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Is the U.S. headed toward a military conflict with Iran?", "question_index": 16, "text": "A good point", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We assume there is. Look, the fact of the matter is the ayatollah is 86 years old. If he didn't have a succession plan prior to..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5727515", "date": "2026-02-26", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Is the U.S. headed toward a military conflict with Iran?", "question_index": 17, "text": ". Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We assume there is. Look, the fact of the matter is the ayatollah is 86 years old. If he didn't have a succession plan prior to..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5727515", "date": "2026-02-26", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Is the U.S. headed toward a military conflict with Iran?", "question_index": 18, "text": "I don't know how relevant it is, but the same general who is running the violent crackdown against the protesters, he's the same person who'd be running the war if there is one.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...This latest confrontation with the United States, then something is wrong with the Iranian system. What we believe he has done now, though, is build a series of succession plans that go down three "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5727515", "date": "2026-02-26", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Is the U.S. headed toward a military conflict with Iran?", "question_index": 19, "text": "Do you think that the military leaders, including Dan Caine, chair of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, are concerned about Trump being commander in chief at a very volatile, dangerous time like this? He isn't consulting Congress, so there's no limits that he's allowing to be put on his power to declare war and to shape the kind of war that it is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, there is a structure to the Islamic Revolutionary Guard and its most elite unit, the Quds Force, which operates those terror operations that I was referring to before. And they would largely be i"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5727515", "date": "2026-02-26", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Is the U.S. headed toward a military conflict with Iran?", "question_index": 20, "text": "Well, we need to take another break here, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is David Sanger. And he's a White House and national security correspondent for the New York Times. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first of all, if the military did have those concerns, they would go out of their way to avoid discussing it, even internally, because they have a pretty good idea it would leak. I've spent a nu"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5727515", "date": "2026-02-26", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Is the U.S. headed toward a military conflict with Iran?", "question_index": 21, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with David Sanger, a White House correspondent and national security correspondent for The New York Times. And we're talking about the possibility of war with Iran. Let's talk about who is running the diplomacy, who's representing the U.S. in diplomatic efforts. It's not Secretary of State Marco Rubio, as far as I can tell. It's Jared Kushner, who doesn't even have a position within the Trump administration, but he is the president's son-in-law. And Steve Witkoff, who - his background is big deals in real estate and finance. And Jared as well. I mean, he played a role in diplomacy in the Abraham Accords, but he doesn't have a diplomacy background. And they both have conflicts of interest in the Middle East.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, first of all, if the military did have those concerns, they would go out of their way to avoid discussing it, even internally, because they have a pretty good idea it would leak. I've spent a nu"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5727515", "date": "2026-02-26", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Is the U.S. headed toward a military conflict with Iran?", "question_index": 22, "text": "I love that headline, by the way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So as my colleague, Anton Troianovski, and I wrote about a week ago, this is a fascinating experiment in diplomacy without diplomats. And you're absolutely right, this has not been..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5727515", "date": "2026-02-26", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Is the U.S. headed toward a military conflict with Iran?", "question_index": 23, "text": "What about Marco Rubio, the secretary of state? Where is he on this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, you know, Terry, I guess I would say that there are some upsides and downsides of this. The most effective diplomats I've seen in four decades-plus of covering this kind of thing for The New York"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5727515", "date": "2026-02-26", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Is the U.S. headed toward a military conflict with Iran?", "question_index": 24, "text": "What about JD Vance? Is he more averse to foreign intervention?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Interesting question. In the State of the Union speech on Tuesday night, President Trump had this line where he said he wanted to praise the man who Mr. Kushner and Mr. Witkoff report to - Marco Rubio"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5727515", "date": "2026-02-26", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Is the U.S. headed toward a military conflict with Iran?", "question_index": 25, "text": "So let's talk about conflicts of interest because Steve Witkoff and Jared Kushner, who are negotiating with Iran, both have business interests in the Middle East. Do you want to run through some of them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, certainly, if you listen to him prior to his election, he was deeply averse to foreign intervention and particularly to the American commitment to Ukraine. Before he was even running for vice pr"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5727515", "date": "2026-02-26", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Is the U.S. headed toward a military conflict with Iran?", "question_index": 26, "text": "Well, let's take another short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is David Sanger. He's a national security and White House correspondent for The New York Times. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, certainly, Terry, we've seen investments that came from the Arab states into some of Jared Kushner's businesses. And for Steve Witkoff, whose business is now run by his children, there have also"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5727515", "date": "2026-02-26", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Is the U.S. headed toward a military conflict with Iran?", "question_index": 27, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with David Sanger, a White House and national security correspondent for The New York Times. Give us a brief sense of what you think the best-case and worst-case scenario is if we do bomb Iran and whether this could lead to a wider war in the Middle East and what that might look like.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, certainly, Terry, we've seen investments that came from the Arab states into some of Jared Kushner's businesses. And for Steve Witkoff, whose business is now run by his children, there have also"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5727515", "date": "2026-02-26", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Is the U.S. headed toward a military conflict with Iran?", "question_index": 28, "text": "Do you think that this could lead - if we do attack Iran, that this could lead to a wider regional war?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Terry, I think, you know, the best case here would be - as the president himself said in the State of the Union, would be to come to a diplomatic outcome here that didn't require any military ac"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5727515", "date": "2026-02-26", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Is the U.S. headed toward a military conflict with Iran?", "question_index": 29, "text": "David, before you have to go, any final thoughts you want to add?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the concerns about that are a little bit overblown. That was certainly the concern after the October 7 attacks - right? - and that there would be additional attacks that would take place that "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5727515", "date": "2026-02-26", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Is the U.S. headed toward a military conflict with Iran?", "question_index": 30, "text": "David Sanger, thank you so much for talking with us. I know you've had a lot of deadlines. I appreciate you carving out some time to be on our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The other day, in an interview on Fox News, Steve Witkoff said that the president was surprised that the Iranians had not yet capitulated, and he was wondering when they might capitulate. My own view "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5727515", "date": "2026-02-26", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Is the U.S. headed toward a military conflict with Iran?", "question_index": 31, "text": "Thank you so much. David Sanger is a White House and national security correspondent for The New York Times and author of the book \"New Cold Wars.\" We recorded our interview yesterday morning. If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, like this week's interviews with Oscar nominees Stellan Skarsgard and Kate Hudson or with novelist Tayari Jones, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. And to find out what's happening behind the scenes of our show and get our producers' recommendations for what to watch, read and listen to, subscribe to our free newsletter at whyy.org/freshair.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Always great to be on FRESH AIR, Terry."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5727515", "date": "2026-02-26", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Is the U.S. headed toward a military conflict with Iran?", "question_index": 32, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Sam Briger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Lauren Krenzel, Ann Marie Baldonado, Monique Nazareth, Therese Madden, Susan Nyakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez-Wisler. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Always great to be on FRESH AIR, Terry."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5734005", "date": "2026-03-03", "guest": "Rick Hasen", "title": "President Trump is trying to make it harder to vote. Here's why that matters", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Election season is underway, with primaries today in Texas, North Carolina and Arkansas. Meanwhile, President Trump is pushing Congress to pass legislation - the SAVE Act - that would change how every American citizen registers to vote and votes. Predictions are that millions of American citizens would be unable to fill the ID requirements. It would cause chaos at the polls, make it chaotic for counties and states overseeing elections and possibly make it challenging to decipher who really won. But Congress seems unwilling to pass that, so President Trump is threatening to issue an executive order that would do all that and more. My guest, Rick Hasen, is an expert in election law. He founded the popular Election Law Blog. He's a professor of law and political science and director of the Safeguarding Democracy Project at UCLA School of Law and the author of numerous books, including \"A Real Right To Vote: How A Constitutional Amendment Can Safeguard American Democracy\" and the forthcoming book, \"Unbent Arc: The Rise And Decline Of American Democracy 1964-2024.\" Rick Hasen, welcome back to FRESH AIR. I want to start by expressing my condolences. I know your mother died in late February, about a week ago, and I'm very sorry.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5734005", "date": "2026-03-03", "guest": "Rick Hasen", "title": "President Trump is trying to make it harder to vote. Here's why that matters", "question_index": 1, "text": "I'd like to talk with you about the executive order or orders that President Trump is threatening to sign. One of them - this story was broken by The Washington Post last week, and it has to do with a conspiracy theory. Would you describe the conspiracy theory?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5734005", "date": "2026-03-03", "guest": "Rick Hasen", "title": "President Trump is trying to make it harder to vote. Here's why that matters", "question_index": 2, "text": "So can you be more specific about how this executive order, which we'll explain in a minute, ties in with this conspiracy theory about foreign interference in 2020 and 2024, leaving out, by the way, Russia, which really did try to interfere and which did have bots and stuff that were interfering with reality, with truth?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, there are a number of conspiracy theories and a kind of whole election denial complex that's floating out there - people who believe that there was, or claim that they believe that there was int"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5734005", "date": "2026-03-03", "guest": "Rick Hasen", "title": "President Trump is trying to make it harder to vote. Here's why that matters", "question_index": 3, "text": "So tell us more about what's in this document that The Washington Post wrote about last week.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, so, you know, there's different kinds of interference that have been alleged. You're referring back to what happened in 2016, when the Russian government had a kind of influence operation to tr"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5734005", "date": "2026-03-03", "guest": "Rick Hasen", "title": "President Trump is trying to make it harder to vote. Here's why that matters", "question_index": 4, "text": "So you'd have to start from scratch. Even if you voted for decades, you'd still have to prove your citizenship with those documents. And getting those documents sometimes requires, you know, writing to the city and, you know, asking for a copy of it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So this document was a document not prepared by anyone in the administration, but prepared by a group of election deniers, people who have long claimed that there could be some kind of national securi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5734005", "date": "2026-03-03", "guest": "Rick Hasen", "title": "President Trump is trying to make it harder to vote. Here's why that matters", "question_index": 5, "text": "And paying for it, right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And paying for it, as well."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5734005", "date": "2026-03-03", "guest": "Rick Hasen", "title": "President Trump is trying to make it harder to vote. Here's why that matters", "question_index": 6, "text": "Is there anything constitutional about any of this?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Everything I'm telling you about this - what's in this draft executive order that these activists have come up with is supposed to be implemented in time for the 2026 elections. So it's really an impo"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5734005", "date": "2026-03-03", "guest": "Rick Hasen", "title": "President Trump is trying to make it harder to vote. Here's why that matters", "question_index": 7, "text": "So if Trump issues a similar executive order, in order for that to not go into effect, it would have to go through the courts, which is a slow system. And it - then it becomes a question of is there a stay that's put on that executive order, or does it go through and then maybe get rescinded? And, I mean, I can imagine such chaos just in the court system.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We've got to go to the Constitution. The Constitution has a provision. It's in Article 1 of the Constitution, which is the part that deals with Congress' powers. It's in Article 1, Section 4, and it b"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5734005", "date": "2026-03-03", "guest": "Rick Hasen", "title": "President Trump is trying to make it harder to vote. Here's why that matters", "question_index": 8, "text": "So let me say, then, that election deniers want to totally remake the election system. Let's look at who some of them were because there was also a meeting - a recent meeting - that was convened by Michael Flynn, who was President Trump's first and very brief national security adviser. And he's been accused of commiserating with Russians, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so we have a little bit of experience with the earlier Trump executive order, which is the one that was issued in August that, among other things, would make it harder for people to register to "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5734005", "date": "2026-03-03", "guest": "Rick Hasen", "title": "President Trump is trying to make it harder to vote. Here's why that matters", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Richard Hasen. He teaches law and political science at UCLA, where he also directs the Safeguarding Democracy Project, and he's the founder of the popular Election Law Blog. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. I mean, there's just - there's a whole constellation of people. These were people who I think got activated in the aftermath of the 2020 election. That was the election that was conducted during"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5734005", "date": "2026-03-03", "guest": "Rick Hasen", "title": "President Trump is trying to make it harder to vote. Here's why that matters", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with UCLA law and political science professor Richard Hasen. He directs the Safeguarding Democracy Project and is the founder of the popular Election Law Blog. We recorded our interview yesterday. What would it mean to nationalize the elections? And Trump has said he'd like to do that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. I mean, there's just - there's a whole constellation of people. These were people who I think got activated in the aftermath of the 2020 election. That was the election that was conducted during"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5734005", "date": "2026-03-03", "guest": "Rick Hasen", "title": "President Trump is trying to make it harder to vote. Here's why that matters", "question_index": 11, "text": "What do you think the odds are that President Trump would issue the kind of executive order that we're talking about?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He did say that, but he also said that there were 15 places where we need to take over elections. Not clear exactly what he means by that. I think we talked about this when we discussed my 2012 book \""}
{"id": "nx-s1-5734005", "date": "2026-03-03", "guest": "Rick Hasen", "title": "President Trump is trying to make it harder to vote. Here's why that matters", "question_index": 12, "text": "Can I stop you there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think there's a good chance that another executive order comes out on voting. Trump has said on multiple times he's going to do it. He had a post on his Truth Social media site that said that we're "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5734005", "date": "2026-03-03", "guest": "Rick Hasen", "title": "President Trump is trying to make it harder to vote. Here's why that matters", "question_index": 13, "text": "So in an attempt to protect the integrity of the election, they would be ruining it by confiscating the votes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5734005", "date": "2026-03-03", "guest": "Rick Hasen", "title": "President Trump is trying to make it harder to vote. Here's why that matters", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, I think another possible way of interfering would be to declare voting machines critical infrastructure - I think they've already been declared that - and use that as an opportunity to confiscate voting machines?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And I think we should take a step back here and recognize that the greatest threat to free and fair elections in 2026 is interference from the federal government. And that's an astonishing thing"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5734005", "date": "2026-03-03", "guest": "Rick Hasen", "title": "President Trump is trying to make it harder to vote. Here's why that matters", "question_index": 15, "text": "So what else could President Trump do with an executive order?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So well before Trump, when we saw attempted interference from foreign countries, including Russia, the Department of Homeland Security declared our voting systems part of critical infrastructure. That"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5734005", "date": "2026-03-03", "guest": "Rick Hasen", "title": "President Trump is trying to make it harder to vote. Here's why that matters", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, we have to take another short break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is Richard Hasen. He teaches law and political science at UCLA, where he's the director of the Safeguarding Democracy Project. He's also the founder of the Election Law Blog. We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he could potentially send federal troops into polling areas. When the president's spokesperson was asked about this, she essentially said there were no plans to do so, but there was no unequivoc"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5734005", "date": "2026-03-03", "guest": "Rick Hasen", "title": "President Trump is trying to make it harder to vote. Here's why that matters", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Richard Hasen. He's a professor of law and political science at UCLA, where he directs the Safeguarding Democracy Project. He's also the founder of the Election Law Blog and has authored numerous books, including \"A Real Right To Vote: How A Constitutional Amendment Can Safeguard American Democracy,\" and he's currently working on a book about the rise and decline of American democracy from 1964 to 2024. We're talking about the moves that the Trump administration has made, or is trying to make, regarding elections, voting and midterms. We recorded our interview yesterday. Something I don't understand both about the SAVE Act, which has stalled in the Senate, and this talk of executive orders - it's going to be as hard for Republicans to register and vote as it will be for Democrats. Some people say it will make it harder because there's more Republicans in rural areas that would have trouble getting to an official election place where you can prove your citizenship and, therefore, register. So what's in it for Republicans? What's in it for conspiracy theorists to advocate for changes in election law that would make it difficult for Republicans as well as Democrats?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he could potentially send federal troops into polling areas. When the president's spokesperson was asked about this, she essentially said there were no plans to do so, but there was no unequivoc"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5734005", "date": "2026-03-03", "guest": "Rick Hasen", "title": "President Trump is trying to make it harder to vote. Here's why that matters", "question_index": 18, "text": "How much genuine fraud is there really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that both Republicans and, to some extent, Democrats are stuck in a mindset that is probably outdated, which is that if you make voting and registration harder, it is going to help the Republi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5734005", "date": "2026-03-03", "guest": "Rick Hasen", "title": "President Trump is trying to make it harder to vote. Here's why that matters", "question_index": 19, "text": "And when you compare the number of genuine fraudulent votes to the number of people who are disenfranchised by recent voting laws, who comes out ahead?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So fraud is extremely rare. Let's just take the case of noncitizen voting. In 2016, Donald Trump claimed that there were 3 million noncitizens who voted in the 2016 election. That was coincidentally t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5734005", "date": "2026-03-03", "guest": "Rick Hasen", "title": "President Trump is trying to make it harder to vote. Here's why that matters", "question_index": 20, "text": "Getting back to Trump trying to get access to voting rolls from states, and succeeding in some instances, Pam Bondi, the attorney general, tried to make a deal with Minnesota. We'll pull out ICE in return for you turning over voter rolls. What did you make of that when you heard it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, well, here we have some good data. So back in, I believe it was, the early 2010s, Kansas passed one of these documentary proof-of-citizenship laws. And this, again, is a law that would require y"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5734005", "date": "2026-03-03", "guest": "Rick Hasen", "title": "President Trump is trying to make it harder to vote. Here's why that matters", "question_index": 21, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Richard Hasen. He teaches law and political science at UCLA, where he also directs the Safeguarding Democracy Project. And he's the founder of the popular Election Law Blog. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thought it was outrageous. The idea that you would condition something related to immigration enforcement, law enforcement on this wish list to get the voting rolls, there's no real connection to it"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5734005", "date": "2026-03-03", "guest": "Rick Hasen", "title": "President Trump is trying to make it harder to vote. Here's why that matters", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with UCLA law and political science professor Richard Hasen. He directs the Safeguarding Democracy Project and is the founder of the popular Election Law Blog. We recorded our interview yesterday. I want to play a clip of something that President Trump said during his State of the Union address about how he'd like to change how elections are administered.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I thought it was outrageous. The idea that you would condition something related to immigration enforcement, law enforcement on this wish list to get the voting rolls, there's no real connection to it"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5734005", "date": "2026-03-03", "guest": "Rick Hasen", "title": "President Trump is trying to make it harder to vote. Here's why that matters", "question_index": 23, "text": "Let's just go through what Trump said in this State of the Union address. He said that, you know, 89% of American people are for voter ID. That doesn't mean they're for the form of voter ID that Trump wants, which is a much more extreme, hard to get form of voter ID.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And this should be an easy one. And by the way, it's polling at 89%, including Democrats - 89%. (CHEERING)"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5734005", "date": "2026-03-03", "guest": "Rick Hasen", "title": "President Trump is trying to make it harder to vote. Here's why that matters", "question_index": 24, "text": "There's another part of the Voting Rights Act, one of the civil rights bills, that's being contested in court now. Can you talk about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, so there's two things, right? One is, what do you have to show at the polling place? And what the SAVE America Act would do is allow for a very narrow set of IDs that would be allowed. So, for e"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5734005", "date": "2026-03-03", "guest": "Rick Hasen", "title": "President Trump is trying to make it harder to vote. Here's why that matters", "question_index": 25, "text": "And what impact do you think this would have?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the Voting Rights Act of 1965 had an important amendment that was made in 1982. It's commonly referred to as Section 2. And it's the part of the Voting Rights Act that requires, in the context of r"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5734005", "date": "2026-03-03", "guest": "Rick Hasen", "title": "President Trump is trying to make it harder to vote. Here's why that matters", "question_index": 26, "text": "You would like to see our Constitution updated. But you'd specifically like to see a new constitutional amendment regarding voting. What would you like it to say?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think this would be a terrible setback for American democracy. It would mean that not just Congress but our state legislatures, our city councils, our county boards, our school districts would be mu"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5734005", "date": "2026-03-03", "guest": "Rick Hasen", "title": "President Trump is trying to make it harder to vote. Here's why that matters", "question_index": 27, "text": "Thank you so much for your time today and for explaining some really complicated things that are going on in our election system right now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, let's talk about the fact that the U.S. Constitution does not guarantee anyone the right to vote. It simply says that if you're going to hold an election, you can't discriminate on the basis of "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5734005", "date": "2026-03-03", "guest": "Rick Hasen", "title": "President Trump is trying to make it harder to vote. Here's why that matters", "question_index": 28, "text": "Rick Hasen is the founder of the Election Law Blog. And he's a professor of law and political science, as well as director of the Safeguarding Democracy Project at the UCLA School of Law. His latest book is called \"A Real Right To Vote.\" We recorded our interview yesterday morning. Later in the day, the Supreme Court announced an emergency decision pertaining to redistricting and the midterms. A lawsuit filed by four New Yorkers challenged the map of a district redrawn in 2024 by Republicans to include parts of both Staten Island and Brooklyn. The lawsuit argued that the redrawn map was unconstitutional under New York state's constitution because it diluted the power of Black and Latino voters. A lower court ruled in favor of the Democrats. The Republican representative from that district asked the Supreme Court to pause that ruling until the map could be redrawn. The Supreme Court agreed and overturned the lower court's stay. That decision will likely help Republicans keep that congressional seat in the midterms. Rick Hasen wrote on his blog that for him, the headline was Justice Alito's concurrence, which says, race-conscious redistricting is odious. Hasen is concerned because Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act, which as we discussed is being challenged in another case before the Supreme Court, prohibits voting practices or procedures that discriminate on the basis of race. Hasen says yesterday's decision is, quote, \"bad news not just for Section 2 of the Voting Rights Act, but for more voting protection in the states,\" unquote. After we take a short break, John Powers will review a new Japanese film about a gangster's son who dreams of being a star in Kabuki theater. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'm really glad that we're having this chance to have this conversation because now is the time for people to pay attention and be vigilant. We can't wait until November."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5737599", "date": "2026-03-06", "guest": "Connie Francis", "title": "Remembering singer-songwriter Neil Sedaka", "question_index": 0, "text": "Now, when you were in your teens or just out of them, you had a knack for writing songs that would appeal to teenagers, maybe particularly to teenage girls, because the songs often had the message they wanted to hear, like they're growing up and becoming very desirable. Did you think about that consciously? Did you think of yourself as writing songs for teens?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The current century delivered no new hits, but Neil Sedaka remained active. In 2009, he released a children's album, featuring playful revised lyrics to his most famous songs. The collection was calle"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5737599", "date": "2026-03-06", "guest": "Connie Francis", "title": "Remembering singer-songwriter Neil Sedaka", "question_index": 1, "text": "Did you always start with a lyrical hook as well as a musical one?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we were the teenagers of New York coming from the Brill Building school of songwriting. And, yes, we were writing for the teenage market, the early lyrics or collaboration with Howard Greenfield"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5737599", "date": "2026-03-06", "guest": "Connie Francis", "title": "Remembering singer-songwriter Neil Sedaka", "question_index": 2, "text": "Now, were you in the Brill Building or the building near the Brill Building that's...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I always wrote the melody first, and I would prepare two or three melodies for Howie and play him that day. And whatever mood he might be in, he would choose one of those. And then it was a give-and-t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5737599", "date": "2026-03-06", "guest": "Connie Francis", "title": "Remembering singer-songwriter Neil Sedaka", "question_index": 3, "text": "So it wasn't the Brill Building. It was the one next to it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "1619."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5737599", "date": "2026-03-06", "guest": "Connie Francis", "title": "Remembering singer-songwriter Neil Sedaka", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, but we referred to it as the new Brill Building..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5737599", "date": "2026-03-06", "guest": "Connie Francis", "title": "Remembering singer-songwriter Neil Sedaka", "question_index": 5, "text": "So this is like the rock 'n' roll Tin Pan Alley building as opposed to the Tin Pan Alley Tin Pan Alley building.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...The young writers, as opposed to the Irving Caesars in 1650, the old writers across the street."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5737599", "date": "2026-03-06", "guest": "Connie Francis", "title": "Remembering singer-songwriter Neil Sedaka", "question_index": 6, "text": "So this is an office building where a lot of, like, young songwriters were working under contract, churning out songs. Who else was writing there when you were there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5737599", "date": "2026-03-06", "guest": "Connie Francis", "title": "Remembering singer-songwriter Neil Sedaka", "question_index": 7, "text": "Were you all competitive with each other or friendly?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm always asked. People are fascinated with the Brill Building. I brought Carol King, who I was dating in high school. Howie Greenfield and I were the first writers to be signed to Aldon Music at the"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5737599", "date": "2026-03-06", "guest": "Connie Francis", "title": "Remembering singer-songwriter Neil Sedaka", "question_index": 8, "text": "Most of the songwriters there were writing for other singers. And you wrote songs that other singers recorded, but you wrote a lot of songs that you recorded yourself. Were you originally hired to write for other people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, competition is good, and creativity - you bounce off other creative people. I think people are inspired by other musicians. So it was a good atmosphere. And at the end of the day, all "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5737599", "date": "2026-03-06", "guest": "Connie Francis", "title": "Remembering singer-songwriter Neil Sedaka", "question_index": 9, "text": "So your parents were happy about that in spite of their classical aspirations for you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I came in as a writer - the first six months, and my - two of my songs were recorded. Connie Francis did \"Stupid Cupid,\" and before that, Atlantic Records - Ahmet Ertegun and Jerry Wexler - took my so"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5737599", "date": "2026-03-06", "guest": "Connie Francis", "title": "Remembering singer-songwriter Neil Sedaka", "question_index": 10, "text": "How did it become a trademark? And how did you figure out what syllables to use, whether it should be wella-wella or dooby-dooby?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Neil Sedaka speaking to Terry Gross in 2007. We'll hear more after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. We're listening to Terry's 2007 interview with songwriter and singer Neil Sedaka. He d"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5737599", "date": "2026-03-06", "guest": "Connie Francis", "title": "Remembering singer-songwriter Neil Sedaka", "question_index": 11, "text": "What was the first song you did that on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it started early in the career. And it was kind of someone singing along. Perhaps they were just getting into the song and they didn't get into the lyric yet. So they were going, (singing) down,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5737599", "date": "2026-03-06", "guest": "Connie Francis", "title": "Remembering singer-songwriter Neil Sedaka", "question_index": 12, "text": "What made you decide to do a slower and more adult version of the song in 1975?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was \"Oh! Carol.\" I did double voice. But \"Breaking Up\" is an interesting song because I think I'm the only artist who has recorded his song twice. I did it first as a rock 'n' roll song in "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5737599", "date": "2026-03-06", "guest": "Connie Francis", "title": "Remembering singer-songwriter Neil Sedaka", "question_index": 13, "text": "And you made some changes on it. It's not just that the tempo is slower. The chords are really different.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Lenny Welch, a great singer who had a hit called \"Since I Fell For You,\" was a friend and asked if I had any follow-up to \"Since I Fell For You.\" And I was fooling around at the piano one day and disc"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5737599", "date": "2026-03-06", "guest": "Connie Francis", "title": "Remembering singer-songwriter Neil Sedaka", "question_index": 14, "text": "OK, so let's hear Neil Sedaka's two versions of his song \"Breaking Up Is Hard To Do.\" The first from 1962, the second from 1975. Both versions are featured on his new CD, \"The Definitive Collection\" of Neil Sedaka.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, of course. It's more sophisticated. And when you have a ballad hit, it's a career move. It's a much better career vehicle. And when you're doing it as a jazz piece, you automatically change some"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5737599", "date": "2026-03-06", "guest": "Connie Francis", "title": "Remembering singer-songwriter Neil Sedaka", "question_index": 15, "text": "Now, of course, you know, on \"American Idol\" a few years ago, Ruben did a slow version of \"Breaking Up Is Hard To Do.\" And Clay, of course, recorded \"Solitaire.\" And you were a judge, a guest judge. What kind of advice did they ask you - did they give you before being a - did they tell you to be nice or to take the gloves off and be tough?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Remember when you held me tight and you kissed me all through the night? Think of all that we've been through and breaking up is hard to do. They say that..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5737599", "date": "2026-03-06", "guest": "Connie Francis", "title": "Remembering singer-songwriter Neil Sedaka", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, I wanted to be tough. But my son said, Dad, you know, there are 30 million people watching. Be careful of what you say. And, you know, I think that it's a very difficult - these kids a"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5737599", "date": "2026-03-06", "guest": "Connie Francis", "title": "Remembering singer-songwriter Neil Sedaka", "question_index": 17, "text": "What impact did it have on your career?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And the five finalists will be singing all Neil Sedaka songs. I was over the moon."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5737599", "date": "2026-03-06", "guest": "Connie Francis", "title": "Remembering singer-songwriter Neil Sedaka", "question_index": 18, "text": "We were talking about how you grew up playing classical music and how your mother early on would've preferred that you play classical music. In those early days, were you torn in two directions, pop versus classical?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The catalog went through the roof. All of the old records started to sell. Amazon.com was ringing off the walls. And \"Solitaire\" by Clay was one of the biggest - I think the second biggest seller of t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5737599", "date": "2026-03-06", "guest": "Connie Francis", "title": "Remembering singer-songwriter Neil Sedaka", "question_index": 19, "text": "In an autobiography that you wrote a few years ago, you write about a song, \"Mr. Moon,\" that you wrote when you were in high school and that you performed in high school. But the principal didn't like the song. You describe it as having been a little risque", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I was a very serious piano student. I started playing at age 8. At 9, I entered the prep school of the Juilliard when it was on 125th Street and Claremont Avenue. I studied with the great Edgar Ro"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5737599", "date": "2026-03-06", "guest": "Connie Francis", "title": "Remembering singer-songwriter Neil Sedaka", "question_index": 20, "text": "for school. I was dying to hear how it went.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I was a very serious piano student. I started playing at age 8. At 9, I entered the prep school of the Juilliard when it was on 125th Street and Claremont Avenue. I studied with the great Edgar Ro"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5737599", "date": "2026-03-06", "guest": "Connie Francis", "title": "Remembering singer-songwriter Neil Sedaka", "question_index": 21, "text": "Could you do a few bars of it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was a freshman at Lincoln High School, and as I said, not one of the popular kids. And I had started writing rock 'n' roll. It was the beginning of rock 'n' roll. And I wrote a song called \"Mr"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5737599", "date": "2026-03-06", "guest": "Connie Francis", "title": "Remembering singer-songwriter Neil Sedaka", "question_index": 22, "text": "Yeah, you know, you write in that memoir - you write, by first grade, I was known as the school sissy. I practiced walking and gesturing in a masculine fashion in front of the mirror. So it made me think you were probably picked on a lot.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli. We're remembering Neil Sedaka, the singer and songwriter who died last week at age 86. He cowrote his first hit song when he was 19. And even before that, in hi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5737599", "date": "2026-03-06", "guest": "Connie Francis", "title": "Remembering singer-songwriter Neil Sedaka", "question_index": 23, "text": "Yeah. Well, did it make you self-conscious when you started performing about whether you should look more macho as a performer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that was one of the reasons that I wanted to be recognized, I wanted to please people. I think, in many instances, artists who begin as - you know, are neglected and are made fun of, I think that"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5737599", "date": "2026-03-06", "guest": "Connie Francis", "title": "Remembering singer-songwriter Neil Sedaka", "question_index": 24, "text": "You know, I think in that era, every teenager was standing in front of a mirror. And some people were learning to dance in front of a mirror. Some people were pretending they were singing into a microphone in front of a mirror. And other people were just trying to figure out how to fix their hair or look better. But don't you think, like, every boy and girl was standing in front of a mirror then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I studied in front of a mirror. I had a sister, Ronnie, who I adored. And she was my hero. She was 18 months older, beautiful, popular. And, you know, I had to stand in front of a mirror, I'll be tota"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5737599", "date": "2026-03-06", "guest": "Connie Francis", "title": "Remembering singer-songwriter Neil Sedaka", "question_index": 25, "text": "Now, a few years ago, you recorded an album of Yiddish songs called \"Brighton Beach Memories.\" You grew up in Brighton Beach.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. But I must correct you. I didn't use the word sissy. I used the word feminine, because I was raised by six women. We were, believe it or not, 11 people in a two-bedroom apartment in Brighton Beac"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5737599", "date": "2026-03-06", "guest": "Connie Francis", "title": "Remembering singer-songwriter Neil Sedaka", "question_index": 26, "text": "Were these songs that you grew up hearing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5737599", "date": "2026-03-06", "guest": "Connie Francis", "title": "Remembering singer-songwriter Neil Sedaka", "question_index": 27, "text": "I want to play a track from the album. Let me ask you to choose one of your favorites.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. My mother played the Barry Sisters records. These were the great old standards, \"Vi Ahin Zol Ich Geyn,\" \"Shein Vi Di L'Vone,\" \"My Yiddishe Mamme.\" I heard them at bar mitzvahs and weddings, and f"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5737599", "date": "2026-03-06", "guest": "Connie Francis", "title": "Remembering singer-songwriter Neil Sedaka", "question_index": 28, "text": "Well, let's hear Neil Sedaka's recording of \"My Yiddishe Mamme\" from his album \"Brighton Beach Memories.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'd love to hear \"Yiddishe Mamme.\" I do it half in English and half in Yiddish. And it reminds me of my mother, who passed away last year, Eleanor Sedaka, who lived to 89. And she lived a great life. "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5737599", "date": "2026-03-06", "guest": "Connie Francis", "title": "Remembering singer-songwriter Neil Sedaka", "question_index": 29, "text": "That's Neil Sedaka from his album \"Brighton Beach Memories\" that came out a few years ago. Now, earlier, we heard two different versions of your song \"Breaking Up Is Hard To Do.\" One from the early '60s. One from the mid-'70s. When did your string of hits in the '60s end? People always say that for the American pop songwriters and singers, their careers were really interrupted or ended by the British invasion. Is that too simplistic or do you think that's an accurate description?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing in Yiddish)."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5737599", "date": "2026-03-06", "guest": "Connie Francis", "title": "Remembering singer-songwriter Neil Sedaka", "question_index": 30, "text": "Was \"Laughter In The Rain\" on that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's an accurate description, Terry. There was also a natural progression of five years of hits. The Everly Brothers, Connie Francis, Fats Domino, Brenda Lee, we all didn't have more than five years"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5737599", "date": "2026-03-06", "guest": "Connie Francis", "title": "Remembering singer-songwriter Neil Sedaka", "question_index": 31, "text": "Yeah, that was a really big hit for you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, and \"Love Will Keep Us\"..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5737599", "date": "2026-03-06", "guest": "Connie Francis", "title": "Remembering singer-songwriter Neil Sedaka", "question_index": 32, "text": "So how much are you still writing songs now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, after 11 years, to have a No. 1 record was a remarkable comeback. And \"Love Will Keep Us Together\" was on and \"The Immigrant\" and \"That's When The Music Takes Me.\" I was very proud of the collec"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5737599", "date": "2026-03-06", "guest": "Connie Francis", "title": "Remembering singer-songwriter Neil Sedaka", "question_index": 33, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I write once or twice a year. I wrote some new songs that I'm working on for a children's album. I actually rewrote - since I have three new grandchildren, my son and his wife got after me and said, y"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5737599", "date": "2026-03-06", "guest": "Connie Francis", "title": "Remembering singer-songwriter Neil Sedaka", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did \"Where The Toys Are.\""}
{"id": "nx-s1-5737599", "date": "2026-03-06", "guest": "Connie Francis", "title": "Remembering singer-songwriter Neil Sedaka", "question_index": 35, "text": "I'm trying to think of a really torchy version of \"Where The Toys Are.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Don't trip over your toys, put them away neatly. And so, perhaps I'll be Papa Neil on television. Who knows?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5737599", "date": "2026-03-06", "guest": "Connie Francis", "title": "Remembering singer-songwriter Neil Sedaka", "question_index": 36, "text": "Well, it's really been a pleasure talking with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Don't trip over your toys, put them away neatly. And so, perhaps I'll be Papa Neil on television. Who knows?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Stephen Sondheim once described himself as an austere revolutionary. His musicals - the music, the lyrics, the stories - were both more complex and more subtle than their predecessors. After Alan Jay Lerner - who wrote the lyrics for \"My Fair Lady,\" \"Brigadoon\" and \"Camelot\" - saw Sondheim's groundbreaking 1970 musical \"Company,\" he broke into tears and told his wife, my way of writing musicals is over. It's no exaggeration to say Sondheim was a genius. Geniuses are often complicated people with complicated personalities - and Sondheim was no exception. Perhaps the most difficult relationship in his life was with his mother who could be cold and even verbally cruel. That seems to have influenced Sondheim's personality and the themes of some of his shows. In the new book \"Stephen Sondheim: Art Isn't Easy,\" my guest, Daniel Okrent, offers insights into Sondheim's life and music based on access to his letters, archives, oral history, as well as the 36 hours of interviews that Meryle Secrest did for her 1998 biography of him and Okrent's own interviews with many people who knew him. Okrent has worked as a book and magazine editor and was the first public editor for The New York Times. He's the author of previous books about Prohibition, baseball and how eugenics and bigotry shaped anti-immigration law. Stephen Sondheim got his start on Broadway, writing lyrics for \"Gypsy\" and \"West Side Story.\" He went on to write music and lyrics for such shows as \"A Funny Thing Happened On The Way To The Forum,\" \"Follies,\" \"Merrily We Roll Along,\" \"Sweeney Todd,\" \"Sunday In The Park With George,\" \"Into The Woods\" and \"Passion.\" Daniel Okrent, welcome back to FRESH AIR. It's great to have you back.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 1, "text": "I want to start with you choosing a song, and I'd like it to be a song that you heard something new in as a result of all the research that you did for this new Sondheim book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm very happy to be here."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 2, "text": "And this is a song where Sweeney Todd, who is seeking revenge against the judge that locked him up and then stole his wife and then is trying to marry Sweeney's daughter.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, well, \"Epiphany,\" this horrifying and overwhelming song near the end of \"Sweeney Todd,\" I had listened to and been impressed by I don't know how many scores of times, but when I was doing the rese"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 3, "text": "And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 4, "text": "And discards her.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Steals his wife - well, he steals his wife..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 5, "text": "Yeah, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And, you know, wounds her permanently."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 6, "text": "And Sweeney ends up killing her because now she's homeless and has gone mad, and she's just, like, in his way. So, yeah, anyhow - so here's the song, and it's one of my very, very favorite of all Sondheim's pieces, and this is my favorite show of his. And it's a really - like, his desire for revenge is just, like, overflowing. And he wants to - everybody's unworthy, and they all deserve to die. That's the refrain. They all deserve to die. So here it is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 7, "text": "So that's \"Epiphany\" from Stephen Sondheim's \"Sweeney Todd.\" And something I found really fascinating about your book is that there's this recurring chord in \"Sweeney Todd\" that's a real horror-movie kind of chord. Like, old horror movie. And he knew that chord from a Bernard Herrmann score from a 1945 film, \"Hangover Square.\" And so I went to that movie, which I've never seen, but watched the scene where the concert pianist, who is having a breakdown and is murdering people, is at the piano playing this very dizzying piece and strikes that chord several times.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Sweeney Todd, singing) There's a hole in the world like a great black pit, and it's filled with people who are filled with s***, and the vermin of the world inhabit it. But not for long. They all "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 8, "text": "So let's just hear a little bit of the music from the concert piece that's being played. It's - you know, with that chord in the Bernard Herrmann score, because, you know, the pianist is performing when he's having the breakdown, and we hear that chord.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a chord that the very young Stephen Sondheim - he was a teenager - heard, and he just fell in love with that chord. And he went back to see the movie again because he wanted to be able to retai"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 9, "text": "So that was an excerpt where what Stephen Sondheim called the Bernard Herrmann chord is heard in. It's from the movie \"Hangover Square.\" I think Sondheim had denied that \"Sweeney Todd\" was about revenge or his own desire for revenge. And you found something in your research that relates to that. Would you explain?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a chord that the very young Stephen Sondheim - he was a teenager - heard, and he just fell in love with that chord. And he went back to see the movie again because he wanted to be able to retai"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 10, "text": "And you write that his psychiatrist, Milton Horowitz wrote papers on revenge and on revenge and masochism. And Horowitz connects revenge to deep loneliness and the need to connect, which you can also relate to Sondheim.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. In an interview that he gave to his first biographer, Meryle Secrest, back in 1996, Sondheim described the day that Judy Prince came over to hear some of the songs, the beginning songs of \"Sween"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 11, "text": "So in terms of \"Sweeney\" being about revenge and people thinking it's autobiographical in some way, not the murder part, but just about revenge. Sondheim said, the difference between Sweeney and me is that I turned it into art.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. There are two major arcs to his life. One is from absolute alienation to, finally, near the end of his life, connection. The other is from an ambivalence that could be crippling at times to reso"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 12, "text": "And I think it's in a smaller way inside all of us, that we get angry, that we want to get back at someone, and we don't necessarily act on it, you know, 'cause - but it's just I love that show so much, and there's a part of me - you know, I'm fairly inhibited myself, but there's a part of me that, like - I suppress certain feelings, and you just, like, relate to all the feelings in that show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that's a sentence that says a great deal about his entire career and his entire life, that through his music and his lyrics, he was able to express things that he could not, for various forms "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 13, "text": "And that's not a bad thing necessarily", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. And it's the inhibitions that keep us from expressing those feelings, was something that he attacked."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. And it's the inhibitions that keep us from expressing those feelings, was something that he attacked."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 15, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Socially, it's a very good thing..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 16, "text": "We need to take a short break here, so let me reintroduce you. My guest is Daniel Okrent. His new book is called \"Stephen Sondheim: Art Isn't Easy.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...To do. And sometimes when he was in a bad mood, he would let them out socially, but mostly, it came through in his songs. And one of the things that's very important to know about Sondheim that ena"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Daniel Okrent. His new book is about Stephen Sondheim, and it's called \"Stephen Sondheim: Art Isn't Easy.\" So I want to ask you about a letter, a letter that's very famous to Sondheim fans that, you know, you learned more about. Describe the letter as Sondheim described it, and then describe the letter that was actually written. This was a letter from his mother. And they had a very complicated and very stressful relationship with each other, which we'll get into after we hear about the letter.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...To do. And sometimes when he was in a bad mood, he would let them out socially, but mostly, it came through in his songs. And one of the things that's very important to know about Sondheim that ena"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 18, "text": "There's two ways I can interpret guilt. One is that she knew she wasn't meant to be a mother and she feels guilty that she was such a bad mother. But the more obvious interpretation is, she gave birth to a monster and she feels guilty about that, that she unleashed this miserable person on the world.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In the late 1970s, his mother, known as Foxy - that was her nickname - wrote him a letter, the content of which he revealed in an interview with The New York Times in 1994 in which he said, in the let"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 19, "text": "So there's a song in \"Company\" that seems to be related to his mother. And it's \"Ladies Who Lunch,\" sung by Elaine Stritch. What's the connection?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, that's interesting. I go the opposite direction. I liked the first - your first version better. I don't see any evidence that she felt that she had unleashed a monster on the world, even in her bi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 20, "text": "So let's hear it. This is \"Ladies Who Lunch\" from his musical \"Company.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in fact, it is about his mother, in a way. She was a socialite. She liked to be around famous people. And she liked to eat nearly - not every day but certainly every week at the 21 Club, where a"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 21, "text": "That was \"Ladies Who Lunch\" from the Stephen Sondheim musical \"Company.\" So let's continue talking about the relationship between Sondheim and his mother. Although they had a pretty toxic relationship much of the time, his mother was friends with Oscar Hammerstein's wife. And Sondheim was friends with the Hammersteins' son. So when the Hammersteins moved to a farm in Pennsylvania, his mother and Stephen Sondheim moved nearby. And Hammerstein became Sondheim's mentor. And Hammerstein wasn't mean to Sondheim, but he could be very blunt in his criticism.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Here's to the girls who stay smart. Aren't they a gas? Rushing to their classes in optical art, wishing it would pass. Another long, exhausting day, another thousand dollars. A matinee, a Pi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 22, "text": "And one of the first things Sondheim showed Hammerstein when Sondheim was still pretty young, Hammerstein's response to it was, this is really terrible. I'm not saying you're not talented. You are, but this is terrible", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he was direct with him. I think that Oscar, as he must be known, Oscar was the most important male figure in his life. Oscar dies when Sondheim is just about 30. But for those 30 years, there wa"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 23, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he was direct with him. I think that Oscar, as he must be known, Oscar was the most important male figure in his life. Oscar dies when Sondheim is just about 30. But for those 30 years, there wa"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 24, "text": "We need to take a short break here, so let me reintroduce you. My guest is Daniel Okrent. His new book is called \"Stephen Sondheim: Art Isn't Easy.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And Sondheim is glad for that. The same thing shows up when he's at college at Williams, when he's studying music with the composer Milton Babbitt. He wants the criticism. He relishes the criti"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 25, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Daniel Okrent. His new book is about Stephen Sondheim, and it's called \"Stephen Sondheim: Art Isn't Easy.\" After Oscar Hammerstein died, Sondheim collaborated for one show called \"Do I Hear A Waltz?\" with Richard Rodgers, who was Hammerstein's, you know, long time songwriting partner, with Rodgers writing the music and Hammerstein writing the lyrics. So I want to play something from \"Do I Hear A Waltz?\" because just the whole idea of Sondheim and Richard Rodgers collaborating is interesting. We should hear an example of the music. The only song that caught on from there was \"Do I Hear A Waltz?,\" which, as I recall, I heard people do on, like, \"The Ed Sullivan Show\" and on the radio. Do you want to choose one?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And Sondheim is glad for that. The same thing shows up when he's at college at Williams, when he's studying music with the composer Milton Babbitt. He wants the criticism. He relishes the criti"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 26, "text": "OK, here it is. And the singer is Elizabeth Allen.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think your instinct is right. You know, we remember \"Do I Hear A Waltz?\" because that song became a very big hit. It was sung by many, many other popular singers of the era, and even since the"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 27, "text": "That was Elizabeth Allen singing the title song from the original cast recording of \"Do I Hear A Waltz?,\" a collaboration between composer Richard Rodgers and Stephen Sondheim wrote the lyrics. So getting back to talking about Sondheim's life. He knew he was gay, but you couldn't really come out then, not even on Broadway, where, like, so many of the directors and writers and composers and lyricists were gay, and the audience as well, but you couldn't be out 'cause that's how it was. So it seems to me from your book that he really tried to be straight because he just couldn't be out then.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Do I hear a waltz? Very odd, but I hear a waltz. There isn't a band and I don't understand it at all. Oh, I can't hear a waltz. Oh, my Lord, there it goes again. Why is nobody dancing in the"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 28, "text": "Did his attitude change when he found the person who became his spouse?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think he gave it a shot. I think it wasn't that he made a valiant effort to do it. But, see, let's see if this is a possibility. And he did not come out publicly, really, well, it's the middle to la"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 29, "text": "During that period, he wrote a song from - I think this was probably the final musical that was actually performed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, his attitude begins to change when he falls in love with a 21 year old, and Sondheim is, at this point, in his early 60s, a incipient or aspiring songwriter named Peter Jones. He meets this youn"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 30, "text": "In his lifetime. Yeah. And it was - it had several titles, but I think it's mostly known as \"Road Show.\" And the song I'm thinking of is \"The Best Thing That Ever Happened (ph),\" which is - I love this song. It's a duet. And I didn't realize until you wrote it that it had become a standard song at gay weddings. But let's hear the song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In his lifetime. Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 31, "text": "UNIDENTIFIED MUSICAL ARTIST #1: (Singing) You might just be the best thing that has happened to me so far. Of course, not much ever really has happened to me so far. UNIDENTIFIED MUSICAL ARTIST #2: (Singing) I didn't much like love. I always fought it I never thought it would happen like this. UNIDENTIFIED MUSICAL ARTIST #1: (Singing) Give us a kiss. UNIDENTIFIED MUSICAL ARTIST #1 AND UNIDENTIFIED MUSICAL ARTIST #2: (Singing) We may just be the best thing that has happened to us... UNIDENTIFIED MUSICAL ARTIST #1: (Singing) Kiddo. UNIDENTIFIED MUSICAL ARTIST #2: (Singing) Partner. UNIDENTIFIED MUSICAL ARTIST #1 AND UNIDENTIFIED MUSICAL ARTIST #2: (Singing) Another moment like this may not happen to us. UNIDENTIFIED MUSICAL ARTIST #1: (Singing) Partner. UNIDENTIFIED MUSICAL ARTIST #2: (Singing) Lover. UNIDENTIFIED MUSICAL ARTIST #1 AND UNIDENTIFIED MUSICAL ARTIST #2: (Singing) When all is said and done I have to agree. You are the best thing that's happened to me.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In his lifetime. Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 32, "text": "That was \"The Best Thing That Ever Happened\" from the Sondheim musical \"Road Show.\" And my guest is Daniel Okrent, author of the new book \"Stephen Sondheim: Art Isn't Easy.\" So, Sondheim collaborated on several, like, key musicals with Hal Prince. They had a pretty complicated relationship, and he also had a very complicated relationship with Leonard Bernstein. So let's focus on one of them. You can choose.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In his lifetime. Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 33, "text": "I think Bernstein didn't like \"Sweeney Todd\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Let's talk about Bernstein. When the two met, Sondheim was 25, and he came in to sort of audition as a lyricist for \"West Side Story.\" And Bernstein, who was, at that time, the best known non-rock mus"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 34, "text": "See, I can't imagine that because it's such a brilliant musical - such a groundbreaking musical. And Sondheim didn't like Bernstein's \"Mass,\" but...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was \"Sweeney Todd,\" of which he said about \"Sweeney Todd,\" he said, the music made me want to throw up in my galoshes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 35, "text": "That's what I was going to say.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No one did."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 36, "text": "He was joined by a lot of people", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 37, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 38, "text": "...In not liking it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 39, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 40, "text": "You write in the book that Sondheim described his songwriting process - not the lyrics, but the musical part - as being built around chords - that the first thing that comes to him is the chords and then he adds the melody around that. And some of his chords were so interesting. And I'm going to go back to \"Sweeney Todd\" for this because at the beginning of the show, it opens with this, like, really chilling organ solo, and it's one crazy chord after another. Like, each chord has such a kind of demonic sound to it, and it just keeps building and building. So let's just hear a little bit of that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "With \"Sweeney,\" I think, Terry, there's misperception. I don't think what he said - that, it makes me want to throw up in my galoshes - he was commenting on the music. I think he was commenting to som"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 41, "text": "So that's the opening music from \"Sweeney Todd,\" his musical about revenge that's inspired by - it sounds like it's inspired by horror films in part.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "'ATTEND THE TALE OF SWEENEY TODD'\")"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 42, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Daniel Okrent. He's the author of the new book \"Stephen Sondheim: Art Isn't Easy.\" We have to take a short break here, and then we'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's an amazing piece of work. And of course, that theme returns throughout the show behind other songs and for different purposes, but it haunts the show. He said harmony was everything. If you"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 43, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Daniel Okrent. His new book is called \"Stephen Sondheim: Art Isn't Easy.\" So I want to end the musical part of our discussion with one of the two songs that were played at Sondheim's memorial service, and they were songs that he felt very deeply about. One of them was \"Someone In A Tree\" from \"Pacific Overtures\" - a show that didn't do well, and a show that most people don't know as well as his shows that do do well. I don't know the score that well myself. But he had told me that - one of the first times I interviewed him - that \"Someone In A Tree\" from \"Pacific Overtures\" was his favorite of all the songs he wrote. And you write, when listening back to that song, he'd frequently tear up. So I want to play that song, but I'd like you to set it up for us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It's an amazing piece of work. And of course, that theme returns throughout the show behind other songs and for different purposes, but it haunts the show. He said harmony was everything. If you"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 44, "text": "OK, let's hear it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Pacific Overtures\" is set in the middle of the 19th century, when this - think of this as an idea for a Broadway musical - let's do a Broadway musical about the opening of Japan to Western commerce i"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 45, "text": "That was \"Someone In A Tree\" from the Stephen Sondheim musical \"Pacific Overtures.\" My guest, Daniel Okrent, is the author of the new book \"Stephen Sondheim: Art Isn't Easy.\" You know, I think your book could've been called \"Genius Isn't Easy\" instead of \"Art Isn't Easy.\" Art isn't easy is a quote from \"Sunday In The Park With George,\" one of the lyrics. But there's so many geniuses in your book, and they're all such complicated people.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) One of them has gold."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 46, "text": "So you said that this Sondheim book is going to be your last book.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I guess they are. I may have overcomplicated them because I do so much research. I go so deep and I find things that, you know, inevitably lead to complication. I could - you could do it with my life "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 47, "text": "How does it feel to have Sondheim be the last book you're going to write?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 48, "text": "Well, Daniel Okrent, it's been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "What was great about the Sondheim project was I wasn't going to make any money from it. It's published by university press. It's on a relatively, you know, arcane subject. And, you know, it was someth"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5749232", "date": "2026-03-16", "guest": "Daniel Okrent", "title": "'Art Isn't Easy' author offers new insights into Stephen Sondheim's life and music", "question_index": 49, "text": "It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much. Daniel Okrent is the author of the new book \"Stephen Sondheim: Art Isn't Easy.\" After we take a short break, book critic Maureen Corrigan will review a new novel that reimagines an infamous clash of cultures. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You love Sondheim's music as much as I do, so it's great to share this with you, Terry."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5753066", "date": "2026-03-20", "guest": "Roy Book Binder", "title": "Remembering singer, songwriter and raconteur Roy Book Binder", "question_index": 0, "text": "Roy Book Binder, welcome to FRESH AIR. And before we talk, can you get us started with a song?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli. Roy Book Binder, the raconteur and acoustic musician known for playing Southern blues and hillbilly music, died March 3 at the age of 82. Known as the Travelin'"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5753066", "date": "2026-03-20", "guest": "Roy Book Binder", "title": "Remembering singer, songwriter and raconteur Roy Book Binder", "question_index": 1, "text": "Performed by my guest, Roy Book Binder. You know, I think there are a couple of traps that some white Northern performers have fallen into when performing Southern-based music. And I'm thinking, for instance, that some people seem to have almost lost their own voice when they sing. If they're singing Black-based music, they get a completely different voice and try to sound like an older Black man from the South. And I wonder if it was ever hard for you to find your own voice in your singing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure can. (Singing) Call me a dog when I'm gone. It's old black dog when I'm gone. But when I get home with a $10 bill, it's, Daddy, where you been so long? Well, I've been all around Kentucky and the"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5753066", "date": "2026-03-20", "guest": "Roy Book Binder", "title": "Remembering singer, songwriter and raconteur Roy Book Binder", "question_index": 2, "text": "Well, you spent some time trying to track down one of the musicians who you liked most, Pink Anderson. And he's someone that probably a lot of our listeners aren't familiar with. Tell us a little bit about him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "If he can get away with that, I'm going to get away with this. And back in the early '60s, I moved south when I was 18, the first time I joined the Navy, ran away to sea and moved to Virginia, and I'v"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5753066", "date": "2026-03-20", "guest": "Roy Book Binder", "title": "Remembering singer, songwriter and raconteur Roy Book Binder", "question_index": 3, "text": "And then I'll ask you to do a song by him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5753066", "date": "2026-03-20", "guest": "Roy Book Binder", "title": "Remembering singer, songwriter and raconteur Roy Book Binder", "question_index": 4, "text": "Can you do a song for us from Pink Anderson?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". It happened throughout the history of country music and blues."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5753066", "date": "2026-03-20", "guest": "Roy Book Binder", "title": "Remembering singer, songwriter and raconteur Roy Book Binder", "question_index": 5, "text": "Did Pink Anderson teach you that one?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure can. This is the old \"Travelin' Man\" song. It came a long way. (Singing) Well, I just want to tell you about a man named Boon (ph). His home was down in Tennessee. He made his living. He was stea"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5753066", "date": "2026-03-20", "guest": "Roy Book Binder", "title": "Remembering singer, songwriter and raconteur Roy Book Binder", "question_index": 6, "text": "Right", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he didn't directly teach it to me, but I watched him play it."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5753066", "date": "2026-03-20", "guest": "Roy Book Binder", "title": "Remembering singer, songwriter and raconteur Roy Book Binder", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he didn't directly teach it to me, but I watched him play it."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5753066", "date": "2026-03-20", "guest": "Roy Book Binder", "title": "Remembering singer, songwriter and raconteur Roy Book Binder", "question_index": 8, "text": "Was he surprised to see you tracking him down, wanting to learn his songs? If he'd only recorded two songs, he must have been pretty obscure in musical terms.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He actually played it in a different key."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5753066", "date": "2026-03-20", "guest": "Roy Book Binder", "title": "Remembering singer, songwriter and raconteur Roy Book Binder", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, he went nuts when I went down there. I was sitting on his front porch. That's a long story. I don't have time to tell you the whole thing. But he came down the street, and I walked up the street t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5753066", "date": "2026-03-20", "guest": "Roy Book Binder", "title": "Remembering singer, songwriter and raconteur Roy Book Binder", "question_index": 10, "text": "Let's talk a little bit about Reverend Gary Davis, who you also met. And I think this was before he had become rediscovered. He'd already been rediscovered?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Roy Book Binder in the FRESH AIR studios in 1987. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the FRESH AIR studio visit by Roy Book Binder, who dropped by to tell stor"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5753066", "date": "2026-03-20", "guest": "Roy Book Binder", "title": "Remembering singer, songwriter and raconteur Roy Book Binder", "question_index": 11, "text": "What's some of the strumming or finger picking style that you learned from him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, he was semi-famous when I met him. He already was living in a little house in Jamaica, Queens."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5753066", "date": "2026-03-20", "guest": "Roy Book Binder", "title": "Remembering singer, songwriter and raconteur Roy Book Binder", "question_index": 12, "text": "Most blues musicians have many stories to tell about getting ripped off while they were on the road. And I wonder if that was any worse for Gary Davis since he was blind, and it would've been...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Reverend Davis, he had a number of styles. (Playing guitar). He had what - his simple, little style. Like, he did \"Candy Man\" and he did the \"Cocaine Blues,\" and he did \"Delia.\" And then he'd ge"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5753066", "date": "2026-03-20", "guest": "Roy Book Binder", "title": "Remembering singer, songwriter and raconteur Roy Book Binder", "question_index": 13, "text": "...That much easier for people to take advantage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5753066", "date": "2026-03-20", "guest": "Roy Book Binder", "title": "Remembering singer, songwriter and raconteur Roy Book Binder", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I said, Reverend Davis, what's the matter? I mean, I was in dreamland getting woken up like that. I mean, he was in his 70s, an old blind man, and he was hysterical. I said, what's the matter? He sa"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5753066", "date": "2026-03-20", "guest": "Roy Book Binder", "title": "Remembering singer, songwriter and raconteur Roy Book Binder", "question_index": 15, "text": "Can you play us a song that you learned from Reverend Gary Davis?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5753066", "date": "2026-03-20", "guest": "Roy Book Binder", "title": "Remembering singer, songwriter and raconteur Roy Book Binder", "question_index": 16, "text": "Great.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. (Playing guitar). Let me play a song that I wrote in the style of Reverend Gary Davis."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5753066", "date": "2026-03-20", "guest": "Roy Book Binder", "title": "Remembering singer, songwriter and raconteur Roy Book Binder", "question_index": 17, "text": "Great song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a song he always did called \"I'll Be All Right Some Day.\" And I loved that song. I always wanted to learn how to play it. I finally figured out the basics of it and came out with a little arran"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5759180", "date": "2026-03-24", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Will President Trump act on his threat to take Cuba?", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. President Trump says he plans on taking Cuba. We're already at war with Iran, and the conflict has spread to over a dozen other countries in the Gulf region. Cuba is at a very vulnerable moment. It had depended on Venezuela for fuel and supplies, but those shipments ended after the U.S. arrested Venezuelan President Nicol\u00e1s Maduro and then the vice president, Delcy Rodr\u00edguez, became president. And she has complied with Trump. Cuba is bankrupt. The power grid is now being slowly repaired after it completely failed. And that wasn't the first time Cuba was recently in the dark. There's hardly any food or fuel, and an estimated 1 in 5 Cubans have left the country in the last few years. Here to explain how we got to this point is Jon Lee Anderson. He recently returned from a reporting trip to Cuba. He writes about Cuba in the new issue of The New Yorker, where he's a staff writer. His piece is titled \"Is Cuba Next?: Trump's Campaign To Topple Foreign Adversaries Encounters A Battered But Defiant Regime.\" Anderson lived in Havana for several years in the '90s while he was researching his book about Che Guevara, who along with Fidel Castro led the revolution against the U.S.-backed dictator Fulgencio Batista. Anderson is also the author of the 2025 book \"To Lose A War: The Fall And Rise Of The Taliban.\" He's reported from conflict zones around the world. We recorded our interview yesterday. Let's start with what Trump said Monday of last week about what he might do in Cuba.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5759180", "date": "2026-03-24", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Will President Trump act on his threat to take Cuba?", "question_index": 1, "text": "Jon Lee Anderson, welcome back to FRESH AIR. What was your reaction to this statement that we just heard?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Taking Cuba in some form, yeah. Taking Cuba. I mean, whether I free it, take it, think I can do anything I want with it, you want to know the truth. They're a very weakened nation right now."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5759180", "date": "2026-03-24", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Will President Trump act on his threat to take Cuba?", "question_index": 2, "text": "Why does Trump want to intervene in Cuba and possibly take it over? I mean, they're bankrupt. You know, he often wants resources like fuel or, you know, rare minerals. What does Cuba have to offer that President Trump wants?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks, Terry. Dismay and shock, just at the tone that the man who is the president of the United States used in referring to another country. And, of course, you know, the dismay is not just at the t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5759180", "date": "2026-03-24", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Will President Trump act on his threat to take Cuba?", "question_index": 3, "text": "It sounds like you believe that, that you believe what he wants is beachfront property.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". That's, you know - people both said that cynically, but also genuinely. They actually thought because they've heard so much about his famous transactional-ism and his, you know, pecuniary motivation"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5759180", "date": "2026-03-24", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Will President Trump act on his threat to take Cuba?", "question_index": 4, "text": "Would you describe the conditions you found in Cuba on your trip in January and February?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, in the - I think it was 2013. The Trump organization sent people down, executives down to the island to explore the potentials for golf courses, marinas, et cetera. Nothing came of it, a"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5759180", "date": "2026-03-24", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Will President Trump act on his threat to take Cuba?", "question_index": 5, "text": "You also write about malnutrition, mosquito-borne illnesses, thousands of people with few doctors and people on the verge of starvation in some situations.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, look, it was shockingly bad. I was there also last year in May, which was also - and I had not been in a couple of years. And I found that return just, you know, very revealing, because I had be"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5759180", "date": "2026-03-24", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Will President Trump act on his threat to take Cuba?", "question_index": 6, "text": "Cuba's deputy foreign minister said that Cuba is preparing for a U.S. invasion. Do you know what they're doing to prepare? And what's their military like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, Cuba, whatever else its critics said about it over the years, you know, they conceded that it had this extraordinary medical health care service, which was true. Fidel Castro put a huge amou"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5759180", "date": "2026-03-24", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Will President Trump act on his threat to take Cuba?", "question_index": 7, "text": "Do they still exist?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the Cubans, beginning in mid-January, around the time I arrived there on this latest trip, there were directives going out to the reserves around Cuba, around Havana, different neighborhoods for pe"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5759180", "date": "2026-03-24", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Will President Trump act on his threat to take Cuba?", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, we need to take a short break here so let me reintroduce you. My guest is Jon Lee Anderson. And his new article in The New Yorker is titled \"Is Cuba Next?\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Look, if it does, they're not saying so exactly. They're saying so rhetorically. We're not seeing huge, you know, military mobilizations in the country. But the Revolutionary Armed Forces is perhaps, "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5759180", "date": "2026-03-24", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Will President Trump act on his threat to take Cuba?", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Jon Lee Anderson. He has a new article in The New Yorker, where he's a staff writer. It's titled \"Is Cuba Next?: Trump's Campaign To Topple Foreign Adversaries Encounters A Battered But Defiant Regime.\" He recently returned from a reporting trip to Cuba. He lived in Havana for several years in the '90s while researching his book \"Che Guevara: A Revolutionary Life.\" You have a friend who's a former revolutionary, who I imagine you met while you were writing your book about Che Guevara. And he said, I don't care anymore how it happens, but this situation has to end. Is he saying, and I don't even care if the U.S. takes over and there's regime change, but this has to end?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Look, if it does, they're not saying so exactly. They're saying so rhetorically. We're not seeing huge, you know, military mobilizations in the country. But the Revolutionary Armed Forces is perhaps, "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5759180", "date": "2026-03-24", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Will President Trump act on his threat to take Cuba?", "question_index": 10, "text": "Well, if they remove the president, the way you describe it in your article in The New Yorker, it's really the former president, Raul Castro, who's Fidel's brother, who's the power behind the current president. And there are Castro family members throughout the government.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, at that moment. He even said - where's Delta Force? - sort of jokily. But it was black humor, you know? He was expressing a kind of existential despair, really, because this is someone who's spe"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5759180", "date": "2026-03-24", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Will President Trump act on his threat to take Cuba?", "question_index": 11, "text": "So who do you think will be the official negotiator, assuming official negotiations start?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. And they appear to be talking with at least one of those members. So you're right. Raul Castro is - he's sort of - in a sense, he's the supreme leader, right? He's 94. He was the country"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5759180", "date": "2026-03-24", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Will President Trump act on his threat to take Cuba?", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, we need to take another short break here, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Jon Lee Anderson. His new article in The New Yorker is titled \"Is Cuba Next? Trump's Campaign To Topple Foreign Adversaries Encounters A Battered But Defiant Regime.\" We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It looks like it will be a combination, frankly. You know, you have the president, Diaz-Canel, who seems a little bit undercut by these other figures around him. He periodically comes out, and, you kn"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5759180", "date": "2026-03-24", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Will President Trump act on his threat to take Cuba?", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Jon Lee Anderson. He has a new article in The New Yorker titled \"Is Cuba Next? Trump's Campaign To Topple Foreign Adversaries Encounters A Battered But Defiant Regime.\" Anderson recently returned from a reporting trip to Cuba. He lived in Havana for a few years in the '90s while researching his book \"Che Guevara: A Revolutionary Life.\" Anderson has also written about Fidel Castro, Hugo Chavez and Nicol\u00e1s Maduro. He's reported from conflict zones in Africa, the Middle East and Latin America and is the author of the 2025 book \"To Lose A War: The Fall And Rise Of The Taliban.\" Let's talk about Venezuela and their role now in the weakening of Cuba. You know, this year, Trump sent forces into Venezuela, arrested the Venezuelan president, Nicol\u00e1s Maduro. The vice president, Delcy Rodriguez, became the president, and she's been basically compliant with President Trump. So Venezuela is no longer sending fuel or supplies to Cuba. What role has that played in all of the dire conditions that you were describing earlier?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It looks like it will be a combination, frankly. You know, you have the president, Diaz-Canel, who seems a little bit undercut by these other figures around him. He periodically comes out, and, you kn"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5759180", "date": "2026-03-24", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Will President Trump act on his threat to take Cuba?", "question_index": 14, "text": "I'm wondering where Secretary of State Marco Rubio stands. So far, he's been carrying on the negotiations with Cuba. And I don't think they've been officially announced, but as you say, people know that they're going on. Do you know what his goal is? Now, he's of Cuban descent, and he has been an opponent of the Castro government for a long time. But is he on the same page as Trump in terms of what he wants the intervention to look like and the outcome to be?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, a massive role. Venezuela has been the - in a sense, replaced the Soviet Union, which collapsed, which had been the sponsor of Cuba, subsidized Cuba for 35 years. And when it imploded, Cuba went"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5759180", "date": "2026-03-24", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Will President Trump act on his threat to take Cuba?", "question_index": 15, "text": "That would be a complex negotiation that would take time.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In what he's said with regards to Cuba, he's been surprisingly circumspect. For a Cuban American, you would have expected perhaps a more heated response. And he - but he's measured his words quite car"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5759180", "date": "2026-03-24", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Will President Trump act on his threat to take Cuba?", "question_index": 16, "text": "And I'm wondering if you think what Rubio is trying to negotiate for - the goals that he's working toward - are similar or different from the goals of the activist Cuban Americans, particularly those in Florida, who would like to return to Cuba or who want to stay in Florida but want the assets that they left in Cuba when they fled to be returned to them.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It sure would. Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5759180", "date": "2026-03-24", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Will President Trump act on his threat to take Cuba?", "question_index": 17, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you again. My guess is Jon Lee Anderson. And his new article in The New Yorker is titled \"Is Cuba Next\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So there is a law prohibiting the United States president from lifting the embargo, which has been in place since 1962. It's called the Helms-Burton law. Clinton actually signed it into law in 1996 fo"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5759180", "date": "2026-03-24", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Will President Trump act on his threat to take Cuba?", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Jon Lee Anderson. He has a new article in The New Yorker titled \"Is Cuba Next?: Trump's Campaign To Topple Foreign Adversaries Encounters A Battered But Defiant Regime.\" Right now, there are a couple of humanitarian missions where tankers are being sent, through volunteers from several countries, to Cuba with supplies from - I think from America and from other countries. Supplies of, like, medicine and food and even fuel. And some people, I think, in Cuba are objecting to that because they fear that all these supplies will be handled through the government. And the government will, one, take credit for it, and two, might take some of it for themselves and not fairly distribute it. And I wonder if you've been following that story.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So there is a law prohibiting the United States president from lifting the embargo, which has been in place since 1962. It's called the Helms-Burton law. Clinton actually signed it into law in 1996 fo"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5759180", "date": "2026-03-24", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Will President Trump act on his threat to take Cuba?", "question_index": 19, "text": "I want to ask you about one more person in the Castro family, who is, I think, like, the anomaly in the family, judging from your article. And it's, I think, Raul's grandson, Sandro. Is it Raul's grandson?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Somewhat, yes. I mean, this is just happening in the past week, really. You have, you know, the rainbow coalition of, you know, left-wing activists, Greta Thunberg, others there making the point that "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5759180", "date": "2026-03-24", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Will President Trump act on his threat to take Cuba?", "question_index": 20, "text": "Fidel's grandson. OK. And he is a social media influencer. He's a partier. He's into, like, dancing and drinking. He owns a bar in Havana. So where does he fit into the whole Castro family and the whole Castro government?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, no, that's Fidel's grandson."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5759180", "date": "2026-03-24", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Will President Trump act on his threat to take Cuba?", "question_index": 21, "text": "It's OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a good question. Sandro is sort of the uncomfortable grandson. Look, Fidel Castro and Raul Castro both had, you know, offspring. Fidel famously was very austere. He didn't give his kids any break"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5759180", "date": "2026-03-24", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Will President Trump act on his threat to take Cuba?", "question_index": 22, "text": "And he also seems to satirize the government.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He just does what he wants, which is sort of what an American kid would do, right?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5759180", "date": "2026-03-24", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Will President Trump act on his threat to take Cuba?", "question_index": 23, "text": "Doesn't that have, in part, to do with the fact that he's privileged enough to be able to do it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. You know, it's interesting that one of the Castros has produced the first, you know, in-your-face, I-say-what-I-want, I-do-what-I-want person on social media. Isn't that interesting?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5759180", "date": "2026-03-24", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Will President Trump act on his threat to take Cuba?", "question_index": 24, "text": "He's privileged enough to party in on a bar, and safe enough, 'cause probably his family isn't going to imprison him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5759180", "date": "2026-03-24", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Will President Trump act on his threat to take Cuba?", "question_index": 25, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. If his grandfather was still alive, I can assure you that Sandro would not be doing what he's doing. He would have had his bottom slapped or whatever they do, and he would have been sent"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5759180", "date": "2026-03-24", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Will President Trump act on his threat to take Cuba?", "question_index": 26, "text": "Last year, your latest book was published, called \"To Lose A War: The Fall And Rise Of The Taliban.\" And it was about Afghanistan, which, you know, you've covered. What lessons about regime change did you learn from covering Afghanistan and from writing this book - the Afghanistan book?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He would not be doing what he's doing. We're in a new era. There are those Cubans who, when you ask about Sandro, it raises their hackles, especially the older generation. They're furious that someone"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5759180", "date": "2026-03-24", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Will President Trump act on his threat to take Cuba?", "question_index": 27, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you again. My guest is Jon Lee Anderson, and his new article in The New Yorker is titled, \"Is Cuba Next?\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, that's such a good question. Nobody has asked me that until now. Well, gosh. There are so many parallels and so many differences. Let me just speak about Hamid Karzai, the man that we hand-p"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5759180", "date": "2026-03-24", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Will President Trump act on his threat to take Cuba?", "question_index": 28, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Jon Lee Anderson. He has a new article in The New Yorker titled \"Is Cuba Next? Trump's Campaign To Topple Foreign Adversaries Encounters A Battered But Defiant Regime.\" He recently returned from a reporting trip to Cuba. He lived in Havana for a few years in the '90s while researching his book \"Che Guevara: A Revolutionary Life.\" I want to talk with you a little bit about your biography of Che Guevara 'cause I think the research you did and the way you went about it was pretty fascinating. You managed to befriend Che's widow, and she gave you access to unpublished journals that he kept. She gave you access to the office, his home office, and - which was kept the same as it had been. So you were able to sit in his chair and read the books that remained on his desk and gain a lot of insights into his thinking. You also befriended some of Che's friends and siblings, and some of them ended up being - still remaining - friends and also sources for you. You sympathized with the early Che when he had these very idealistic goals, and he kind of lost you when he became more doctrinaire. You felt that he had a really open mind, but then he closed it when he settled on, you know, socialism or communism as the path forward. Can you talk about that change of heart for you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, that's such a good question. Nobody has asked me that until now. Well, gosh. There are so many parallels and so many differences. Let me just speak about Hamid Karzai, the man that we hand-p"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5759180", "date": "2026-03-24", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Will President Trump act on his threat to take Cuba?", "question_index": 29, "text": "Well, Jon Lee Anderson, thank you so much for joining us. Be safe.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The young Che Guevara was an incredibly open-minded man. He was - young man. He was - he read everything under the sun. You know, Faulkner, the Bagavad Gita, you know, Whitman. He was a humanist. He w"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5759180", "date": "2026-03-24", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Will President Trump act on his threat to take Cuba?", "question_index": 30, "text": "And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The young Che Guevara was an incredibly open-minded man. He was - young man. He was - he read everything under the sun. You know, Faulkner, the Bagavad Gita, you know, Whitman. He was a humanist. He w"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5759180", "date": "2026-03-24", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Will President Trump act on his threat to take Cuba?", "question_index": 31, "text": "And be well.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5759180", "date": "2026-03-24", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Will President Trump act on his threat to take Cuba?", "question_index": 32, "text": "Jon Lee Anderson is a staff writer at The New Yorker. His new article is titled \"Is Cuba Next?\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, as President Trump was ordering the removal of plaques and monuments that referred to racism, our guest, human rights lawyer Bryan Stevenson, was opening a new public site about the history of the Civil Rights Movement and the violence and degradation that made the movement essential. It's part of the series of public sites Stevenson founded called The Legacy Project, documenting harsh truths about American history from slavery to Jim Crow and attacks on civil rights activists. In a film adaptation of Stevenson's memoir, he was portrayed by Michael B. Jordan. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks so much, Terry."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5759180", "date": "2026-03-24", "guest": "President Donald Trump", "title": "Will President Trump act on his threat to take Cuba?", "question_index": 33, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Sam Briger. Our technical director is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Charlie Kyer (ph). Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez-Wisler. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks so much, Terry."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 0, "text": "OK. Now, you taught karate in America, won many karate championships. Bruce Lee got you your first film roles. Did you already want to break into acting when you met Bruce Lee?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's - at that time, it was called Tang Soo Do. Today it's more prominently known as Taekwondo, which is an emphasis on kicking."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 1, "text": "No pun intended, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 2, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No pun intended, right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 3, "text": "Well, that was in 1972. Would you describe the fight scene that you were in in \"Return Of The Dragon\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No pun intended, right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 4, "text": "Now, you both choreographed the scene together - right? - yourself and Bruce Lee?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when, of course, the fight scene is to the death in the colosseum in Rome about basically, like, two gladiators pitting their skills against each other. And it was very exciting, you know, to be"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 5, "text": "Now, you did Korean karate, Taekwondo, and he was a Chinese form of karate...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. We'd worked out together for about three years prior to this. And so when we decided to do the film - the fight itself, he said, well, what do you want to do? And I said, well, I'll do this, thi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 6, "text": "...Kung fu. Were there any differences in style that you had to reconcile before getting the choreography together?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 7, "text": "Now, in the scene, I imagine that you didn't really hit each other hard. I mean, what are the rules there...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not at all, because we'd both studied many other styles as well. And I'd studied the Chinese and - you know, with Bruce and the Japanese style. So I was really a conglomeration of several styles. "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 8, "text": "...When you're choreographing a fight scene for the movie? How did you do it in 1972?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 9, "text": "Is that something you're used to from sparring?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, we - you know, of course, we didn't go to hurt each other. There's light contact. But just as we would make contact, we would, you know, pull the blow right at the point of contact rather than f"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 10, "text": "Did you enjoy kung fu movies at the time? Did you see a lot of them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You learn to control your kicks, and especially from my movies. You know, I have to learn to do that in my films to keep from hurting the stunt men."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 11, "text": "But it early on, didn't you want to convince Hollywood that you would be a good star for kung fu type American vehicles?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I - in the beginning, I did, but they became redundant. They were all the same. You know, when you have a movie that just has fight from beginning to end and there's no story or no emotion involved, i"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 12, "text": "What were some of the things that you had to learn in order to broaden into more general action films?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know, in Hollywood or in the media. But I knew that if I was stuck strictly as a kung fu star, that my career would be very limited, and I'd never - you know, I wouldn't be able to grow. So I st"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well, Steve McQueen, who was a friend of yours and whose son studied at your karate school, gave you some advice on acting. He told you not to verbalize what's already on the screen. It almost seems like that became a code for you. I mean, you're really known in your movies as not...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I - and remember, I jumped into the films with absolutely no experience as an actor, had very little acting classes and so forth. So I had to kind of learn on the job, and it wasn't easy to do that."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 14, "text": "...Not saying a lot.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 15, "text": "Let's talk about stunts some more. Now, do you always do your own stunts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Most of your action actors, Stallone, Schwarzenegger, I think all of us kind of stick to that mode to - you know, is that when there's something to say, say it. If it isn't important, then keep your m"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 16, "text": "That's - what? - like you're walking through an exploded bomb or something like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not all of them. Some I don't do. If it's way out of my range of ability, then, of course, I won't do it. I don't do fire burns, which is really extremely dangerous."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 17, "text": "Well, I remember in \"Code Of Silence,\" there's a great scene in which you're fighting with someone on top of a New York City train.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Or catching on fire and things like that. I - you know, is - I wouldn't want to do. There's just certain things - or high dives. I am not a high diver, so I have to have a stunt double do that,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 18, "text": "And the train is moving. That's you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Yeah, I did that."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 19, "text": "That wasn't a stunt man.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 20, "text": "Now, the train was actually moving while...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, I did that."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 21, "text": "...You were doing that, wasn't it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It was..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 22, "text": "Do you carry any kind of insurance?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...It was doing about 35 miles an hour. In fact, you know, the thing is the stunt man that I was fighting with was a little bit apprehensive about me doing that because we were relying on each other t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 23, "text": "I want to get back to this fight scene in \"Code Of Silence\" on top of the train. How did you and the stuntmen that you were working with keep your balance while the train was moving? What were some of the tricks to doing that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, of course, the studio gets very upset when I do that because if I do get hurt, then production stops and it costs a lot of money. But, you know, the audience today is very sophisticated. They lo"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 24, "text": "Now, as you're actually holding onto each other and trying to help each other keep balance, you have to look as if you're fighting each other...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the tricks is just having the ability to maintain your balance up there. It's - you know, we had the fight prearranged, of course, but we're rolling all over the top of that train, and we're rea"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 25, "text": "...And trying to throw each other off the top of the train.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 26, "text": "Can you talk a little bit about how you kind of make it seem like you're trying to throw the person off the train while you're really hanging on to them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, exactly."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 27, "text": "OK. Let's look at fight scenes for a second. When you're choreographing a fight scene where you'll be using martial arts, are there certain things that you think have to get into the scene, like a certain number of kicks, or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's kind of a hard thing to describe, you know, because you're up there and you just - you know, you're just doing the thing as strong as you can without losing your balance. And a couple of ti"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 28, "text": "...A certain number, you know, a certain amount of, like, really dazzling stuff?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 29, "text": "You have a kind of spin kick that you do.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I didn't win, because it would have been totally unrealistic for me to whip that whole barroom. And so, in turn, you know, I wound up losing that fight. And - but that's the realism of it. If I'd ha"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 30, "text": "Would you describe that - what that is for listeners who haven't seen it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Spinning heel kick, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 31, "text": "In your autobiography, you talk about having to break the pain barrier in karate. And you've had a lot of broken bones...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's like having a baseball bat in your hand and the swinging of - you know, like a baseball - like a batter would swing at a ball. And - but you torque your whole body around in a full circle, "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 32, "text": "...During your years as a karate teacher and as a karate student - broken hands, broken noses. So what do you mean when you say breaking the pain barrier?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Bones."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 33, "text": "Is this something you've had to practice as a stuntman, too, you know, in your role as doing your own stunts?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you're able to eliminate and really ignore the pain. It's something you practice and train, and you get to a point where you're able to really ignore the pain."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 34, "text": "Other times when a stunt has gone wrong, when someone who you were fighting with actually connected instead of almost connected or when someone fell off something that they were supposed to be landing on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "'Cause I don't like pain. I'd prefer not to be hurt than being hurt. But the thing is, like, in \"Firewalker\" I did. I broke my ankle in the second week in the filming, so I had to go eight weeks with "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 35, "text": "Chuck Norris is my guest. I recently saw your new movie \"Missing In Action, Part", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my poor brother has taking a tremendous beating. I've knocked him out twice. I broke his leg once, and so he's taken the worst beating of all the stunt men I've worked with 'cause I work with hi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 36, "text": "...A good deal of the movie. And I wonder if that's intentional, you know, to show off all the muscles?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Braddock\" (ph). And, you know, it's interesting. You're without a shirt during..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 37, "text": "Conducive to what?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". 'Cause I'm not an Arnold Schwarzenegger, but, you know, in the torture scene that you saw, you know, it was conducive to not have the shirt on. But..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 38, "text": "Can I tell you my reaction to that scene?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ", you know, so, you know, they had - you know, had to be able to see the reaction of my body being electrocuted."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 39, "text": "Well, just to describe it, you're being tortured by South Vietnamese, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 40, "text": "North Vietnamese. Well, it's hard to...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "North Vietnamese."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 41, "text": "OK. And they've kidnapped your son. So you're being tortured in this cell. You're suspended by your hands. Your hands are tied over your head and you're standing on your toes. Now, your son is in bondage in a chair in front of you, and there's a gun pointed at him. And the torturer tells you that if you step down - you know, you're on your toes...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he's a Cong - now he's a - from the - Saigon, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 42, "text": "...But if you - if your heels touch the ground and your arms lower about an inch, that this gun is going to go off...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 43, "text": "...Yeah, and shoot your son. Now, seeing you kind of writhing up there with all your muscles exposed, it struck me as almost a sexual bondage scene?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a shotgun, yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 44, "text": "I'm not trying to put any value on it. It just struck me, and I was wondering if that was conscious or not.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 45, "text": "How did you see it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 46, "text": "Or some men might. I don't know.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 47, "text": "A lot of adults in America, especially, like, parents of children, get very upset at certain action movies in which there's a lot of violence depicted. Now, I understand that you actually get more upset by movies that are sexually explicit.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Action hero Chuck Norris speaking with Terry Gross. We'll hear more after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1988 interview with martial arts champion and actor C"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 48, "text": "Well, there's a scene in the movie. And this is part of the commercial that is being shown on television to advertise the movie. You're basically told by the CIA not to go into Vietnam and don't step on any toes there. And you say, I don't step on toes, I step on necks.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the thing is, when we talk about violence, again, it's how you do it. If you provoke violence on the screen, if it's a provocation of violence on the screen, then I don't think it's done in a ve"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 49, "text": "In your movies, your character is constantly being provoked to use his martial arts skills and to pull out guns and knives", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So that's why we inserted it into the movie."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 50, "text": "as well. Do people ever try to take you out in real life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So that's why we inserted it into the movie."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 51, "text": "Have you been called on in real life to use those skills?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "no."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 52, "text": "I'm sure that knowing the martial arts gives you a lot of self-confidence. Have you ever used that to psych someone out in a potentially violent situation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've never had to use it. I've been all over the world and traveled everywhere. And I've never had anyone, you know, approach me in that respect. I think, mainly, again, it's the philosophy that I dem"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 53, "text": "OK. What effect do you think you've had on the American view of maleness?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not in an antagonizing way. Again, when you see trouble happening, you try to diffuse it before it becomes uncontrollable. And I've had to do that several times, where I've been able to diffuse a pote"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762582", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Chuck Norris", "title": "Remembering action hero Chuck Norris\u00a0", "question_index": 54, "text": "Well, Chuck Norris, I want to thank you very much for talking with us. Thanks for being with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know if I've had any effect on that respect. You know, because, again, I don't even think of me having a maleness type of an effect on the audience. I just play a particular type of character "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762584", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Texas Tornados", "title": "Remembering Augie Meyers, pioneer of Tex-Mex rock and roll", "question_index": 0, "text": "My guest, Augie Meyers, featured on both accordion and organ on that recording. You overdubbing on that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Who were you thinking of when we were making love last night? Was it a good-looking stranger or a close friend of mine? You didn't want to quit when we was into it last night. Who were you t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762584", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Texas Tornados", "title": "Remembering Augie Meyers, pioneer of Tex-Mex rock and roll", "question_index": 1, "text": "Yeah, I guess you'd have to", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762584", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Texas Tornados", "title": "Remembering Augie Meyers, pioneer of Tex-Mex rock and roll", "question_index": 2, "text": ". You really used organ as a rhythm instrument. I was wondering how you started playing organ that way.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762584", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Texas Tornados", "title": "Remembering Augie Meyers, pioneer of Tex-Mex rock and roll", "question_index": 3, "text": "I think a lot of people picked up on that", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My main instrument, I guess, years ago was piano. And that was the first Vox organ that was ever in America. I bought in sixty - 1962. And I didn't like the way it sounded trying to play solos on it. "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762584", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Texas Tornados", "title": "Remembering Augie Meyers, pioneer of Tex-Mex rock and roll", "question_index": 4, "text": ". Did you have anybody to pick up on? I mean, did - had you heard organ played that way before?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My main instrument, I guess, years ago was piano. And that was the first Vox organ that was ever in America. I bought in sixty - 1962. And I didn't like the way it sounded trying to play solos on it. "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762584", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Texas Tornados", "title": "Remembering Augie Meyers, pioneer of Tex-Mex rock and roll", "question_index": 5, "text": "Now, you play Vox and Hammond B-3 on the new record.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, nowhere. I listened to - I guess my piano players way back then was Moon Mullican and then Ray Charles. A lot of people don't know Ray Charles played with Guitar Slim. He was called R.C. Richardso"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762584", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Texas Tornados", "title": "Remembering Augie Meyers, pioneer of Tex-Mex rock and roll", "question_index": 6, "text": "What's the difference between the two and what you can get out of it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762584", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Texas Tornados", "title": "Remembering Augie Meyers, pioneer of Tex-Mex rock and roll", "question_index": 7, "text": "This is one of those little organs that kind of stand up?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, a lot. I mean, no, a Hammond B-3 is - you know, it's like a milkshake, you know, with whipped cream and ice cream. And a Vox organ is just a glass of water but a good glass of water. So there's a "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762584", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Texas Tornados", "title": "Remembering Augie Meyers, pioneer of Tex-Mex rock and roll", "question_index": 8, "text": "Yeah, a little, small keyboard.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762584", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Texas Tornados", "title": "Remembering Augie Meyers, pioneer of Tex-Mex rock and roll", "question_index": 9, "text": "So you were the first person in the States to have a Vox organ?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762584", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Texas Tornados", "title": "Remembering Augie Meyers, pioneer of Tex-Mex rock and roll", "question_index": 10, "text": "How did you become the first person to do that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762584", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Texas Tornados", "title": "Remembering Augie Meyers, pioneer of Tex-Mex rock and roll", "question_index": 11, "text": "Oh, really", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I used to prescribe to a lot of English magazines back in the early '60s just to check up and see what's going on. And I remember it was $285. And a man - God bless him, he's gone now - but he o"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762584", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Texas Tornados", "title": "Remembering Augie Meyers, pioneer of Tex-Mex rock and roll", "question_index": 12, "text": "? So did this make you in demand, having this new sound and new instrument?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I used to prescribe to a lot of English magazines back in the early '60s just to check up and see what's going on. And I remember it was $285. And a man - God bless him, he's gone now - but he o"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762584", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Texas Tornados", "title": "Remembering Augie Meyers, pioneer of Tex-Mex rock and roll", "question_index": 13, "text": "Now, I know you had polio as a child.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For a fact, yes, it did. And I remember when me and Doug first went to England in the '60s, George Harrison and Lennon, John Lennon, called the hotel and wanted me to come to the studio because they w"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762584", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Texas Tornados", "title": "Remembering Augie Meyers, pioneer of Tex-Mex rock and roll", "question_index": 14, "text": "So you didn't start walking until you were around 10?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I tell them, from when I was 2 years old till I was almost 10. I had polio. I couldn't walk."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762584", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Texas Tornados", "title": "Remembering Augie Meyers, pioneer of Tex-Mex rock and roll", "question_index": 15, "text": "Were your hands and fingers strong enough to play?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Till I was about 10. So I lived with my grandparents. And when they used to go out in the field every day and pick cotton, they took me over to this Black lady's house. And her husband picked cotton f"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762584", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Texas Tornados", "title": "Remembering Augie Meyers, pioneer of Tex-Mex rock and roll", "question_index": 16, "text": "So do you think learning to play when one hand was still weak affected the way you ended up playing, you know, the style that you ended up having?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my right one was. My left one was a little affected by the polio. But my grandfather, I owe it all to him. He made me walk again, plus the good Lord, you know? But my grandfather, he did his hom"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762584", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Texas Tornados", "title": "Remembering Augie Meyers, pioneer of Tex-Mex rock and roll", "question_index": 17, "text": "Did you get full strength back in your hands?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think so because I do a lot of rhythm on my right hand. And my left hand just kind of hits, you know, the dominant chord on there. I still have problems. I do therapy. I play. That's why I bou"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762584", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Texas Tornados", "title": "Remembering Augie Meyers, pioneer of Tex-Mex rock and roll", "question_index": 18, "text": "How did you meet Doug Sahm, who you played with for many years and are still playing with on the Texas Tornados record?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I'll put it this way. I appreciate what I got. If I got - if I had any more, I don't know what I'd do with it."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762584", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Texas Tornados", "title": "Remembering Augie Meyers, pioneer of Tex-Mex rock and roll", "question_index": 19, "text": "One of the, like, great rock 'n' roll stories was how, when you were produced by Huey Meaux, how he wanted to pass you off as a British invasion group.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, his folks traded in my mother's grocery store. And he used to come there and buy all his baseball cards. And I was a sack boy, and that was it. That was in - we were - I guess we were 14, 15 yea"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762584", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Texas Tornados", "title": "Remembering Augie Meyers, pioneer of Tex-Mex rock and roll", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yeah. Do you feel that way also?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762584", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Texas Tornados", "title": "Remembering Augie Meyers, pioneer of Tex-Mex rock and roll", "question_index": 21, "text": "Are you into The Who also?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762584", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Texas Tornados", "title": "Remembering Augie Meyers, pioneer of Tex-Mex rock and roll", "question_index": 22, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no, no, no, no. Freddy just looked at me and said who, I just said who."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762584", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Texas Tornados", "title": "Remembering Augie Meyers, pioneer of Tex-Mex rock and roll", "question_index": 23, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. But, yeah, Huey wanted to pass. But, I mean, it was really hard because there were two gringos and three Mexicans in a band, you know? And trying to get these Spanish dudes to sit there and try to"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762584", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Texas Tornados", "title": "Remembering Augie Meyers, pioneer of Tex-Mex rock and roll", "question_index": 24, "text": "Well, what is your ethnic group? What's your ethnic background?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that was their kind of accent, you know? So trying to be English, it pulled it off till Trini Lopez on - I think it was \"Hullabaloo\" said, man, they're from Texas, you know?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762584", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Texas Tornados", "title": "Remembering Augie Meyers, pioneer of Tex-Mex rock and roll", "question_index": 25, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Gemini."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762584", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Texas Tornados", "title": "Remembering Augie Meyers, pioneer of Tex-Mex rock and roll", "question_index": 26, "text": "Well, I'm thinking, you know, you're, you know, a gringo playing a lot of, you know, Tex-Mex, Mexican-inspired music. So, no, I wasn't sure what your ethnic background is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Freddy a Gemini, too. No, what do you mean my ethnic background? Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762584", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Texas Tornados", "title": "Remembering Augie Meyers, pioneer of Tex-Mex rock and roll", "question_index": 27, "text": "German and Polish. OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm German and Polish."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762584", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Texas Tornados", "title": "Remembering Augie Meyers, pioneer of Tex-Mex rock and roll", "question_index": 28, "text": "So you probably heard the music of a lot of different ethnic groups growing up in Texas.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762584", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Texas Tornados", "title": "Remembering Augie Meyers, pioneer of Tex-Mex rock and roll", "question_index": 29, "text": "Well, you know, why don't I play something that's kind of half Spanish", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. Well, back - I mean, actually, back - I guess Freddy can say, when we were growing up in Texas, there was either country music or Spanish music. I mean, there was no - you know, then all of a"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762584", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Texas Tornados", "title": "Remembering Augie Meyers, pioneer of Tex-Mex rock and roll", "question_index": 30, "text": "? This is a song that you wrote called \"(Hey Baby) Que Paso?\" Do you want to say anything about the song and about...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes. Well, back - I mean, actually, back - I guess Freddy can say, when we were growing up in Texas, there was either country music or Spanish music. I mean, there was no - you know, then all of a"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762584", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Texas Tornados", "title": "Remembering Augie Meyers, pioneer of Tex-Mex rock and roll", "question_index": 31, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I mean, I wanted to write something that was, you know - at one point, nobody would play my records back home because I either had - the country station wouldn't play it. It had horns on it. The"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762584", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Texas Tornados", "title": "Remembering Augie Meyers, pioneer of Tex-Mex rock and roll", "question_index": 32, "text": "Well, this is the version of it from the new Texas Tornados record. And it features Augie Meyers on vocals, accordion and organ. Freddy Fender is on electric guitar. And here we go.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I miss him, too, because we used to go out and shoot pool and drink beer."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5762584", "date": "2026-03-27", "guest": "Texas Tornados", "title": "Remembering Augie Meyers, pioneer of Tex-Mex rock and roll", "question_index": 33, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You can hear him yelling in the background, too."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Existential dread - that's what my guest, Annabelle Gurwitch, says her new memoir is really about. It's the kind of dread she experienced after getting her diagnosis of Stage 4 lung cancer. She got the news in 2020 in the early days of the COVID lockdown. To make matters worse, she was separated from her husband, and they were divorcing. Odds are she would've been dead by now, but she has a form of cancer that's responsive to a new form of targeted therapy that turns off the gene that has gone rogue. But the cancer eventually outsmarts the drug, often in as little as a year and a half. And then it's on to radiation and chemo and a ticking clock. Though the drug is still working for Gurwitch after five years, the future remains uncertain. Over those five years, she's become a patient advocate, become a mentor to other cancer patients through a program in which she was mentored, and she's involved with helping medical researchers gather evidence of patient reactions to new therapies. Her new memoir is called \"The End Of My Life Is Killing Me: The Unexpected Joys Of A Cancer Slacker.\" She comes up with some great titles. Her previous books include \"Wherever You Go, There They Are: Stories About My Family You Might Relate To,\" \"You Say Tomato, I Say Shut Up: A Love Story,\" \"Fired,\" a book inspired by her experience of being fired by Woody Allen, the New York Times bestseller \"I See You Made An Effort: Compliments, Indignities, And Survival Stories From The Edge Of 50,\" and \"You're Leaving When? Adventures In Downward Mobility.\" Annabelle Gurwitch, welcome to FRESH AIR. I'm glad you're alive", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 1, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 2, "text": "So one of your doctors made an interesting analogy that's the opposite of the warrior analogy, where, like, the cells are declaring war against you, and you're declaring war against them. He said, these are cells who've lost their identity. They don't know who they are anymore. And that's something you can really relate to, especially probably when you have a terminal disease, you don't know who you are anymore because there's the before-the-disease you and the after-the-disease you. So I thought, like, that's a really nice analogy that these cells don't know who they are anymore.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks, Terry."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 3, "text": "And relatable", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, this is actually - that was come up by Ibrahim Cisse, who is a researcher, who was - won a MacArthur Genius award, who happens to be my neighbor and actually not my doctor. And it's interest"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 4, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, this is actually - that was come up by Ibrahim Cisse, who is a researcher, who was - won a MacArthur Genius award, who happens to be my neighbor and actually not my doctor. And it's interest"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 5, "text": "So you're asymptomatic, and that's hard for me to comprehend because it's Stage 4. Your life is...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ".Like, you know, like, one of the things that I feel like cancer is not taken from me is, like, my split-second judgementalness Cancer hasn't made me a nicer person, hasn't made me a more positive per"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 6, "text": "...Constantly at risk. So did a doctor explain to you how you can be asymptomatic with Stage 4 lung cancer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 7, "text": "You write that the diagnosis of Stage 4 lung cancer left your mental health in ruins, and you describe yourself as having existential dread. So, describe what existential dread means to you in your life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, you can be asymptomatic with Stage 4 lung cancer because lung cancer is a really stealthy disease, and this is why it's such a big killer, still the No. 1 cause of cancer deaths, becau"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Yeah, and you quote a Samuel Beckett line. I can't go on. I will go on. What does that mean to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think what I experienced as existential dread started out as maybe something you could say was akin to, like, a brain trauma. It was so shocking at first, this knowledge that was suddenly told to me"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 9, "text": "OK. We need to take a short break here, so let me introduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Annabelle Gurwitch. Her new memoir is called \"The End Of My Life Is Killing Me: The Unexpected Joys Of A Cancer Slacker.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, so I was - I had been an actress, you know, and I had trained in theater, and I had seen this play, \"Texts For Nothing.\" And I had seen my teacher, who was a very legendary actor, Joe "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 10, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Annabelle Gurwitch. Her new memoir is called \"The End Of My Life Is Killing Me: The Unexpected Joys Of A Cancer Slacker.\" She has stage 4 lung cancer, but she's on a targeted therapy that's relatively new, and she has survived on that for five years. She's an author, a humorist and actress. So after your diagnosis, you were still - you were already separated from your husband. You'd been separated for, like, three or four years. And you were first undergoing mediation - I think, like couples mediation - and then it was, like, divorce time. So that's a lot to go through. So you're dealing with the bureaucracy of the medical world. You were told to write your wills - you know, your will - and do all the bureaucracy...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You know, so I was - I had been an actress, you know, and I had trained in theater, and I had seen this play, \"Texts For Nothing.\" And I had seen my teacher, who was a very legendary actor, Joe "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 11, "text": "...Of death and potential death kind of stuff. And you're undergoing a divorce. I don't know how you handled all of that, but let's talk about the divorce a little bit. Did you want the divorce?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, I can think of another reason why you'd want to stay married, which is marriage implies, even if in reality, it's no longer true, that you have a partner who will be there for you. You have an emergency medical contact. You have a support person. You have somebody who's, you know, pledged to be with you, even though, like I said, in reality, that might not be true. But you still want to, in the back of your mind, think that you have that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The funny thing is, like, I knew we were headed for divorce. But then, when you get this other trauma, this diagnosis, for some reason, I thought, maybe we shouldn't do it. Now, that just makes no sen"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 13, "text": "What did she do that helped you so much?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, that is true. But in fact, one of the things that I have learned in this experience is when you're going through a really difficult thing - you know, cancer, whatever kind of trauma - you re"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 14, "text": "She eventually died of lung cancer. What impact did that have on you? 'Cause she was not only your support person, she was kind of like a role model about how to live with Stage 4 lung cancer with this experimental therapy and still have, like, a decent frame of mind.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So this Hardye was 74 at the time and lived in Chicago. And she was a psychotherapist, first of all, so that was fantastic. And she had the same thing as me, and she had been living with the disease"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hardye became a role model for me because she just had this zest for life. And then when she had progression, her decision to not continue treatment because the side effects were too deleterious to he"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 16, "text": "That's a new development.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Few weeks, which I'm very excited about."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I didn't..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 18, "text": "So after your mentor died, you became a mentor to other people in that same program through which you found her. What did it give you? I know you were giving the people you mentored something, but what did they give you in return?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a new development, and I didn't tell him. I didn't contact him and tell him I was writing about her. This is always a difficult decision when you're writing nonfiction because, you know, I though"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 19, "text": "Well, we need to take another break. So I'm going to reintroduce you. Again, if you're just joining us, my guest is writer, humorist and actress, memoirist Annabelle Gurwitch. Her new memoir is called \"The End Of My Life Is Killing Me: The Unexpected Joys Of A Cancer Slacker.\" We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, if I had been diagnosed with breast cancer or something that I feel has more services and more support around it, I might not have stepped into this role, but because there's still a stigma wit"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Annabelle Gurwitch. She's a humorist, memoirist and actress. Her new memoir is the bestseller \"The End Of My Life Is Killing Me: The Unexpected Joys Of A Cancer Slacker.\" Gurwitch was diagnosed with Stage 4 lung cancer in 2020, when she went to an urgent care clinic to get tested for COVID. She has a type of cancer that's responsive to a targeted therapy that turns off the gene fueling the cancer growth. Though the cancer eventually outsmarts the drug, often around 18 months of use, it's still working for her five years on, but no one knows how long that will last. Are there things you stopped worrying about because they seemed inconsequential?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, if I had been diagnosed with breast cancer or something that I feel has more services and more support around it, I might not have stepped into this role, but because there's still a stigma wit"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And, you know, I'm a little hesitant to say, like, and now I don't worry about money or the future 'cause those creep in, but I do try every single day to not be in future thinking because I rea"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 22, "text": "So something else that you haven't done is you haven't turned to religion. And I want to ask you if you'd thought about that at all.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Like, this is a real person who did this. Because, you know, it is tempting when you get this diagnosis. I mean, I did have a little bit of sort of mania at first."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 23, "text": "I want to talk about your relationship. When you were diagnosed with the lung cancer five years ago, you were separated from your husband, you went through a divorce and then you found an old crush who - you were both married when you met, and you were both now separated. And you and he - Jeremy - started a relationship that you're still in. Do you live together now?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, not for one second. Not for one second did I return to religion. You know, if you really want to think about a world with no God, think about being diagnosed with Stage 4 lung cancer out of the "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 24, "text": "OK. But you even say - you don't describe your relationship as you love him. You have a deep...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 25, "text": "...Fondness for him. Why are you rejecting the word love and substituting deep fondness?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, God (ph)."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 26, "text": "Were you afraid that he would reject you - that you'd fall in love with him and then, as you got sicker, if you got sicker, he'd leave?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 27, "text": "We need to take a short break here, so let me introduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Annabelle Gurwitch. Her new memoir is called \"The End Of My Life Is Killing Me: The Unexpected Joys Of A Cancer Slacker.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Now, that's a narrative that totally makes sense, right? Doesn't that make sense? Of course. Of course, I was afraid of that. I also was afraid - and I still feel this way. And I also really and truly"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 28, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Annabelle Gurwitch. Her new memoir is called \"The End Of My Life Is Killing Me: The Unexpected Joys Of A Cancer Slacker.\" In talking about your partner, Jeremy, who you're quite fond of", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Now, that's a narrative that totally makes sense, right? Doesn't that make sense? Of course. Of course, I was afraid of that. I also was afraid - and I still feel this way. And I also really and truly"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 29, "text": "...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Now, that's a narrative that totally makes sense, right? Doesn't that make sense? Of course. Of course, I was afraid of that. I also was afraid - and I still feel this way. And I also really and truly"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 30, "text": "He is in the music industry.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 31, "text": "And he made you this offer - like, hey, do you want to come to Europe with me? We'll go to Italy. We'll go to Paris. We'll go to - what was the other place?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 32, "text": "That sounds like - pretty great, so you wanted to do it. And then you found out the actual purpose of the trip and what your role would be. Do explain.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Say, would you like to go on a European whirlwind trip? We'll go to London. We'll go to Prague. We'll go to Amsterdam, the countryside in the Netherlands. We'll go to Paris."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 33, "text": "And your reaction was?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 34, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in my head, I thought, this is the worst..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 35, "text": "The van?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Idea I've ever heard in my life. But at that moment, I was doing, you know, one of these, like, framework-in-thinking experiments, which was, take contrary action. Do the opposite of what you think"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 36, "text": "OK. So let's make matters a little bit worse. You were on a very limited budget for this tour and booking hotels for, like - what? - $120 a night? Or euros.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. And out of the van falls an empty beer bottle, a nicotine patch, a half-eaten bag of crisps and dirty socks."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 37, "text": "But...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yeah. Who - I don't even know..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 38, "text": "But it was cheap.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...What it was."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 39, "text": "These were horrible...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 40, "text": "...Hotels.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm surprised..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 41, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...It even cost..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 42, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...That much. These were - this was, like - one of the hotels we ended up in is, like, a place where you wake up in a - in an ice-filled bathtub without a kidney. And there was - but when we get to Pa"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 43, "text": "Because you were a woman?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". I just - well, I would - no. I would - I can't say the band hated me, Terry, 'cause they didn't care enough to hate me. They were actively ignoring me."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 44, "text": "Or because you weren't a fan and didn't know heavy metal music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I tried to..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 45, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They were 27..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 46, "text": "If it was me, I would have never, ever gone on this trip. I mean, you had been...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Years old and on a - first time in Europe and on a tour they hoped would change their life. And what I didn't expect - and so I'm trying to, like, Jewish-mom it. I'm getting them snacks. I'm chargi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 47, "text": "...Getting chronic UTIs, which it turns out... ...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 48, "text": "...Was really related to a side effect of the medication that you're on, the targeted therapy. And, you know, the last thing in the world you want to do when you're on the road and in horrible hotels, including one where the bathroom's down the hall - you know, you have to live close to a bathroom when you have a UTI 'cause the frequency is so frequent. And you even had to camp out one night, which - I mean, you were in your 60s. That's, like, not comfortable.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 49, "text": "And you don't want...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Now, I just want to say - so not only did I have UTIs, but, you know, the gastric side effects of this medication can still come on really strongly. So..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 50, "text": "...To be in a van if that happens.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In order..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 51, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You also don't want to be in a porta-potty..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 52, "text": "So true. So true.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...If that's..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 53, "text": "Oh, gosh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 54, "text": "You're lucky you didn't get sick.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So - but, you know, that's my superpower. I was able to - on a concrete slab under a picnic table. But that was my superpower. I could do that."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 55, "text": "So I just want to say, I wish you continued reasonably good health and a longer life than you expected. Now, can I say that without sounding like I just said something that's an offensive cliche or that I shouldn't have said? Is that all right? 'Cause I mean it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I am lucky I didn't get sick. And I did have one of those really dark nights of the soul in the hotel in Paris, where I wasn't sure I was going to wake up with all my organs intact. You know, I'm not "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 56, "text": "OK. Good. Thank you so much for talking with us and for sharing so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I really appreciate that. And I also just appreciate, Terry, the reasonably good health, 'cause that's what I can expect. So I really appreciate that. I really love, for reasonably good health. Th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5777417", "date": "2026-04-08", "guest": "Annabelle Gurwitch", "title": "A humorist faces life with Stage 4 lung cancer: 'The future disappeared for me'", "question_index": 57, "text": "Annabelle Gurwitch's new memoir is called \"The End of My Life Is Killing Me.\" After we take a short break, John Powers will review a new Netflix series about a tortured Oslo police detective. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much, Terry."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5797402", "date": "2026-04-23", "guest": "Steven J Ross", "title": "Author details the spy network that took on America's post-WWII Nazi groups", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. The Southern Poverty Law Center, the SPLC - a group known for monitoring and exposing white supremacist groups and individuals - was indicted by the Justice Department Tuesday on charges of money laundering, fraud and false statements to banks. One of the SPLC's tactics, which was discontinued, was paying people to join hate groups undercover, monitor the hate groups' activities from the inside and, when appropriate, reporting those activities to local and national law enforcement. The indictment accuses the SPLC of using donor money to amplify hate by sending in paid undercover monitors who had to participate in some of the groups' racist activities, while the SPLC also paid people who were members and leaders of hate groups to become informers. It also says the organization failed to disclose to donors that this was how their money was being used. Many critics of the Trump administration say the indictment was politically motivated. The day before the indictment was announced, I interviewed Steven J. Ross, the author of a new nonfiction book with parallels to the SPLC's story. It's about the American Nazi groups that formed after World War II to carry on Hitler's legacy in the U.S. and three groups that exposed the white supremacists by recruiting and paying men and women to go undercover, join the groups, spy on them and report their findings to the police and FBI. Those three groups were the Anti-Defamation League, the American Jewish Committee and the Non-Sectarian Anti-Nazi League. After the SPLC indictment was announced, we called Ross to talk about the parallels between his book and the new indictment. We'll hear that follow-up interview at the end of today's show. Ross' new book is titled \"The Secret War Against Hate: American Resistance To Antisemitism And White Supremacy.\" His previous book, \"Hitler In L.A.,\" is about pro-Nazi groups on the West Coast in the years before and during World War II. Steven Ross is the son of Holocaust survivors. Steven Ross, welcome to FRESH AIR. The book was, I have to say, very enlightening. You see a direct line between the American-born Nazis who became Nazis after World War II and the organizers of January 6, like the Proud Boys, the Three Percenters, the Oath Keepers. We don't know the names of these American Nazis post-World War II who you write about. Do you think that the organizers of January 6 knew their names? And if they didn't know their names, do you think that they unknowingly used language or slogans or concepts originated by those post-World War II American Nazis?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5797402", "date": "2026-04-23", "guest": "Steven J Ross", "title": "Author details the spy network that took on America's post-WWII Nazi groups", "question_index": 1, "text": "Your book begins with quotes of quotes that were on sweatshirts worn by people on January 6 who stormed the Capitol. And those sweatshirts have slogans like, Jews will not replace us, which you just mentioned, Camp Auschwitz, 6M23 (ph), which is short for 6 million Jews weren't enough. And another is, we will finish the job Hitler began, which is a quote from Jesse B. Stoner, you say, one of those post-World War II Nazis.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. The only name they might have known is George Lincoln Rockwell. But while they didn't know the names, they knew the issues and the causes. And we can go back to the moment when this really, I thi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5797402", "date": "2026-04-23", "guest": "Steven J Ross", "title": "Author details the spy network that took on America's post-WWII Nazi groups", "question_index": 2, "text": "Was there an alignment between the Nazi groups in America and the Klan? Because the Klan were also anti-Black. They were racist, and they were antisemitic.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Jesse B. Stoner and a man named Emory Burke. As soon as the war was over, they came out and said, Hitler had not been extreme enough. We will finish the job. We will exterminate all Jews in Ame"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5797402", "date": "2026-04-23", "guest": "Steven J Ross", "title": "Author details the spy network that took on America's post-WWII Nazi groups", "question_index": 3, "text": "So there were three leading groups - Jewish groups - who not only opposed the Nazi groups, they infiltrated them with undercover spies. So what were those three groups?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Well, the interesting thing is, these undercover operations that were running from the early '40s through the 1970s, in the early '40s, they uncovered a plot that the Klan and the Nazi party wer"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5797402", "date": "2026-04-23", "guest": "Steven J Ross", "title": "Author details the spy network that took on America's post-WWII Nazi groups", "question_index": 4, "text": "How did they go about recruiting spies?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It - the three groups who were spying on Nazis and fascists from the 1940s on were the Anti-Defamation League, the American Jewish Committee, both of which still exist today, and a third group that no"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5797402", "date": "2026-04-23", "guest": "Steven J Ross", "title": "Author details the spy network that took on America's post-WWII Nazi groups", "question_index": 5, "text": "When you say they rose in the ranks, you mean within the Nazi groups?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in some cases, the spies were really observers that - the American Jewish Committee and the Anti-Defamation League had groups throughout the country. They had local committees, and many of those"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5797402", "date": "2026-04-23", "guest": "Steven J Ross", "title": "Author details the spy network that took on America's post-WWII Nazi groups", "question_index": 6, "text": "Well, we need to take a short break here, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Steven Ross, author of the new book \"The Secret War Against Hate: American Resistance To Antisemitism And White Supremacy.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Within the Nazi Party, so that in New York - the Nazis didn't call themselves Nazis, per se. In the case of the New York Nazi group, they call themselves the National Renaissance Party. In the case of"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5797402", "date": "2026-04-23", "guest": "Steven J Ross", "title": "Author details the spy network that took on America's post-WWII Nazi groups", "question_index": 7, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Steven Ross, author of the new book \"The Secret War Against Hate: American Resistance To Antisemitism And White Supremacy.\" It's about the racist, antisemitic, pro-Nazi groups after World War II in America and the spy network that the Jewish Anti-Defamation League, the American Jewish Committee and the Anti-Nazi League created to expose them and try to bring them to justice. Now, although one of the goals of these, like, anti-fascist, anti-hate groups was to get information, inside information, and send that to the authorities, to the FBI, to the police. However, these groups also - and I'm talking here about the anti-fascist groups. They also were very distrustful about the FBI and the police, and often for very good reason. What were those reasons?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Within the Nazi Party, so that in New York - the Nazis didn't call themselves Nazis, per se. In the case of the New York Nazi group, they call themselves the National Renaissance Party. In the case of"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5797402", "date": "2026-04-23", "guest": "Steven J Ross", "title": "Author details the spy network that took on America's post-WWII Nazi groups", "question_index": 8, "text": "One of the things that the anti-fascist groups feared was that the fascist Nazi groups would start their own political parties or embed within the two major parties and eventually try to take over the government through the ballot box. How far did they get in those plans?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The reason is, if you go back even to the early '30s, the FBI was not that big at the time. There were only a few hundred agents. And J. Edgar Hoover was obsessed with communist infiltration of Americ"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5797402", "date": "2026-04-23", "guest": "Steven J Ross", "title": "Author details the spy network that took on America's post-WWII Nazi groups", "question_index": 9, "text": "So I want to talk about one of the early spy stories in your book. And this is, like, two spies sent in by the Anti-Nazi League to infiltrate the Columbians, which is one of the first of these neo-Nazi groups. And it's based in Atlanta, Georgia, which is also a hotbed of the Ku Klux Klan. And they had just, like, reunited. And they burned this, like, huge cross after World War II to say, we're back. Because they called - they kind of ceased operation during the war. So the spies were named Stetson Kennedy and Renee Fruchtbaum. They took on new identities to go undercover. So tell us about the group that they were reporting on.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They didn't get very far until 2016, is what I would argue, that part of the problem was what I call the too many fuhrer problem, which is all these hate group leaders from 1945 on were talking about "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5797402", "date": "2026-04-23", "guest": "Steven J Ross", "title": "Author details the spy network that took on America's post-WWII Nazi groups", "question_index": 10, "text": "So what kind of information does he report back?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the group they were reporting on was called the Columbians, and they were led by a southerner. Emory Burke, who liked to affect a British accent, and Homer Loomis Jr, who liked to pretend he was"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5797402", "date": "2026-04-23", "guest": "Steven J Ross", "title": "Author details the spy network that took on America's post-WWII Nazi groups", "question_index": 11, "text": "So that's a success.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He reports back that the Columbians are getting bolder and bolder. And right now, he has gone on a run with them to collect dynamite and guns, and they want to dynamite a Black Baptist Convention in S"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5797402", "date": "2026-04-23", "guest": "Steven J Ross", "title": "Author details the spy network that took on America's post-WWII Nazi groups", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, we need to take another break here. So let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Steven Ross. His new book is called \"The Secret War Against Hate: American Resistance To Antisemitism And White Supremacy.\" We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That is a major success. They bring them down, and they are dead."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5797402", "date": "2026-04-23", "guest": "Steven J Ross", "title": "Author details the spy network that took on America's post-WWII Nazi groups", "question_index": 13, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Steven Ross, author of the new book, \"The Secret War Against Hate: American Resistance To Antisemitism And White Supremacy.\" It's about the racist, antisemitic, pro-Nazi groups in the U.S. after World War II, and the spy network that the Anti-Defamation League, the American Jewish Committee and the Non-Sectarian Anti-Nazi League created to expose the white supremacist groups and try to bring them to justice. When we left off, we were talking about Stetson Kennedy, an undercover informant for the Anti-Defamation League and the Anti-Nazi League, who helped bring an end to the Atlanta-based Nazi group, the Columbians. After the Columbians are put out of business, Kennedy - the undercover person who exposes them - ends up going back to, you know, journalism. He writes a book...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That is a major success. They bring them down, and they are dead."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5797402", "date": "2026-04-23", "guest": "Steven J Ross", "title": "Author details the spy network that took on America's post-WWII Nazi groups", "question_index": 14, "text": "...About his undercover work. And the part I really love about this, he sells some of his stories to the \"Superman\" radio series. Were they used? Were they produced?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, he does."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5797402", "date": "2026-04-23", "guest": "Steven J Ross", "title": "Author details the spy network that took on America's post-WWII Nazi groups", "question_index": 15, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, they were. And it was great because \"Superman\" radio series was one of the most popular series going. And having been admitted into the sort of secret society within the Klan, he knew all their s"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5797402", "date": "2026-04-23", "guest": "Steven J Ross", "title": "Author details the spy network that took on America's post-WWII Nazi groups", "question_index": 16, "text": "So let's get to George Lincoln Rockwell, who is the American Nazi name that a lot of people will recognize. Where does he fit into your story in terms of, you know, being an organizer? You write about how media savvy and charismatic he was.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And their kids were very happy to see Superman defeat the organization their fathers belonged to. And they put - they changed their bounty on whoever was providing this, we were going to give $1,000 i"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5797402", "date": "2026-04-23", "guest": "Steven J Ross", "title": "Author details the spy network that took on America's post-WWII Nazi groups", "question_index": 17, "text": "When George Rockwell - who, as you say, was so charismatic - was at work, he used the stunts to help recruit and just to also get publicity. But did he try or did any of these, you know, fascist, racist, antisemitic groups try to recruit disaffected young men in the same way that hate groups now and far-right groups are trying to do the same?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. In many ways, he is the closest pre-Trump person we have, in that he understood - unlike the other three leaders I write about - he understood the modern media age was going to transform far-ri"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5797402", "date": "2026-04-23", "guest": "Steven J Ross", "title": "Author details the spy network that took on America's post-WWII Nazi groups", "question_index": 18, "text": "Getting back to the recruiting campaign, it's kind of like, are you man enough to hate with all your heart? Like, show your manhood by hating, by wanting to deport people and kill people and learn how to use weapons against other Americans.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, they were playing on the equivalent of bro culture back then. And the National Renaissance Party, James Madole's group, would put out these fliers, are you rugged enough? And challenging young m"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5797402", "date": "2026-04-23", "guest": "Steven J Ross", "title": "Author details the spy network that took on America's post-WWII Nazi groups", "question_index": 19, "text": "And beat them up.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And beat them up."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5797402", "date": "2026-04-23", "guest": "Steven J Ross", "title": "Author details the spy network that took on America's post-WWII Nazi groups", "question_index": 20, "text": "I want to get to what you describe as a turning point in this whole fascist movement post-World War II, and that is Brown v. Board of Education. Why was that such a big turning point? I guess, for obvious reasons, that was a turning point. These guys did not want to desegregate schools or anything, for that matter. But what did it lead to? How did it change these neo-fascist groups?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And this is - you know, if you take a look at the Proud Boys in particular, more than any - the Three Percenters or the Oath Keepers, the Proud Boys openly embrace that we are going to go to these dem"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5797402", "date": "2026-04-23", "guest": "Steven J Ross", "title": "Author details the spy network that took on America's post-WWII Nazi groups", "question_index": 21, "text": "So the language that you hear today from extremist hate groups is sometimes coded. And so it's like a dog whistle that people who are believers in that cause understand, and that sometimes people repeat without fully comprehending what it is they're saying. But it seems to me that one of the things that really differentiates the antisemitic, racist groups post-World War II is that they didn't use code. You know, they didn't euphemize.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It gave them a much larger audience. And in the post-war era, particularly after 1954, Southerners saw it as an assault by the federal government on their very way of life that there was never a recko"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5797402", "date": "2026-04-23", "guest": "Steven J Ross", "title": "Author details the spy network that took on America's post-WWII Nazi groups", "question_index": 22, "text": "Don't you wonder how aware, if at all, Donald Trump was when he started using America first as one of his slogans?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, they were out there because they still believed that they could change the very - literally the complexion of America. And that - remember, many of these groups, it doesn't start in 1945. Many of "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5797402", "date": "2026-04-23", "guest": "Steven J Ross", "title": "Author details the spy network that took on America's post-WWII Nazi groups", "question_index": 23, "text": "Told about the phrase or told about the meaning of the phrase?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My guess is he was told about it. I don't..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5797402", "date": "2026-04-23", "guest": "Steven J Ross", "title": "Author details the spy network that took on America's post-WWII Nazi groups", "question_index": 24, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Steven Ross, author of the new book \"The Secret War Against Hate: American Resistance To Antisemitism And White Supremacy.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The phrase and the meaning. But I don't believe he was reading about it. I can't believe he's reading history books. All he was told is, you know, people like Charles Lindbergh, a great hero, were Ame"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5797402", "date": "2026-04-23", "guest": "Steven J Ross", "title": "Author details the spy network that took on America's post-WWII Nazi groups", "question_index": 25, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Steven Ross, author of the new book \"The Secret War Against Hate: American Resistance To Antisemitism And White Supremacy.\" It's about the racist, antisemitic, pro-Nazi groups after World War II and the spy network that the Jewish Anti-Defamation League, the American Jewish Committee and the Anti-Nazi League created to expose them and try to bring them to justice. You end your book with something that Thomas Jefferson said. And he said, like, democracy can only exist with educated voters who know what they're doing, who know why they're voting for somebody. And that's why Jefferson supported the creation of public schools, so that we would have an educated public. I don't think I really knew that connection before, so I thought that was a very interesting ending.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The phrase and the meaning. But I don't believe he was reading about it. I can't believe he's reading history books. All he was told is, you know, people like Charles Lindbergh, a great hero, were Ame"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5797402", "date": "2026-04-23", "guest": "Steven J Ross", "title": "Author details the spy network that took on America's post-WWII Nazi groups", "question_index": 26, "text": "So your parents were Holocaust survivors. They both survived death camps. When you were growing up, you knew that there were Holocaust survivors, but you thought that they were exaggerating the amount of antisemitism that still existed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, also, I thought, you know, because ending a book - writing the first sentence and writing the last paragraph are the hardest things to do for a writer. And in this case, I'm drawing on my previo"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5797402", "date": "2026-04-23", "guest": "Steven J Ross", "title": "Author details the spy network that took on America's post-WWII Nazi groups", "question_index": 27, "text": "And you grew up after the war.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5797402", "date": "2026-04-23", "guest": "Steven J Ross", "title": "Author details the spy network that took on America's post-WWII Nazi groups", "question_index": 28, "text": "You were born in, like, '51?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5797402", "date": "2026-04-23", "guest": "Steven J Ross", "title": "Author details the spy network that took on America's post-WWII Nazi groups", "question_index": 29, "text": "Oh, wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was born in '49. I was born on V-E Day..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5797402", "date": "2026-04-23", "guest": "Steven J Ross", "title": "Author details the spy network that took on America's post-WWII Nazi groups", "question_index": 30, "text": "OK. So what changed your mind? After thinking that they were overreacting to antisemitism, what changed your mind? 'Cause as an - as a historian, that's what you've been writing about.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Four years after the end of the war in Europe to parents who couldn't believe their good luck that they had escaped. They lived. They escaped. They were in New York, and they now had a child."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5797402", "date": "2026-04-23", "guest": "Steven J Ross", "title": "Author details the spy network that took on America's post-WWII Nazi groups", "question_index": 31, "text": "Your father learned to bake in Dachau, one of the death camps - one of the Nazi death camps...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Well, Charlottesville and Donald Trump. That I could not imagine where the president of the United States would say, there are good people on both sides, because I grew up in the great era of p"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5797402", "date": "2026-04-23", "guest": "Steven J Ross", "title": "Author details the spy network that took on America's post-WWII Nazi groups", "question_index": 32, "text": "...And then later ended up baking for Balducci's and Zabar's. These are two, like, high-end, boutiquey grocery stores in Manhattan that many prosperous Jewish families shop in. And I feel, in a way, that he got his revenge by using what he learned in the death camp to help feed people, including a lot of Jewish people.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yep."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5797402", "date": "2026-04-23", "guest": "Steven J Ross", "title": "Author details the spy network that took on America's post-WWII Nazi groups", "question_index": 33, "text": "Sure.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. It is one of the great ironies that he had wanted to be an engineer, but he had gone from the Warsaw ghetto to Treblinka to a death march from the eastern front back to Dachau. And when he got th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5797402", "date": "2026-04-23", "guest": "Steven J Ross", "title": "Author details the spy network that took on America's post-WWII Nazi groups", "question_index": 34, "text": "My guest is Steven Ross, author of the new book \"The Secret War Against Hate.\" We recorded the interview Monday. On Tuesday, the Justice Department announced it was indicting the Southern Poverty Law Center, which used undercover tactics similar to the ones we just discussed to expose white supremacist groups. We'll hear the follow-up interview I recorded with Ross yesterday about those parallels. But first, a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had lunch with one of my colleagues who asked me - 'cause I had given an early talk about the book. He said, I don't get it. You just spent all these years living with Nazis and fascists and writing"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5797402", "date": "2026-04-23", "guest": "Steven J Ross", "title": "Author details the spy network that took on America's post-WWII Nazi groups", "question_index": 35, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. My guest is Steven J. Ross, author of the new book \"The Secret War Against Hate: American Resistance To Antisemitism And White Supremacy.\" We recorded the interview that we just heard Monday. On Tuesday, the Justice Department announced its indictment of the Southern Poverty Law Center, the SPLC, which is famous for exposing white supremacist groups. One of the SPLC's tactics, which they've discontinued, echoes the tactics Ross just described that was used by organizations opposing American Nazi groups after World War II - sending people undercover to join those groups and get inside information so they could alert law enforcement and the public. Among the indictment's accusations is that the SPLC funded extremism and amplified hate because the paid undercover informants had to participate in some of the groups' activities and because the SPLC also paid some leaders of the hate groups to become informants. The indictment accuses the SPLC of never informing donors that this was how their money was being used. I asked Steven Ross for his reaction to the indictment of the SPLC.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I had lunch with one of my colleagues who asked me - 'cause I had given an early talk about the book. He said, I don't get it. You just spent all these years living with Nazis and fascists and writing"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5797402", "date": "2026-04-23", "guest": "Steven J Ross", "title": "Author details the spy network that took on America's post-WWII Nazi groups", "question_index": 36, "text": "And how do you compare that to what the indictment says?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think we're seeing a deja vu all over again that, once again, these groups in the 1930s, '40s, '50s, '60s, '70s - the Anti-Defamation League, the Non-Sectarian Anti-Nazi League and the American Jewi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5797402", "date": "2026-04-23", "guest": "Steven J Ross", "title": "Author details the spy network that took on America's post-WWII Nazi groups", "question_index": 37, "text": "So the indictment basically accuses the SPLC people who go undercover as inciting more violence, creating more hate because they participate in certain activities, including the rally in Charlottesville. But, I mean, could you also accuse undercover police officers, you know, undercover police detectives, undercover FBI agents, of doing the same when they infiltrate an organization?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm not sure if the indictment is true or not, but the idea that there are paid informants is not illegal. These people are simply monitoring what was going on. And when they're accused of being - ste"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5797402", "date": "2026-04-23", "guest": "Steven J Ross", "title": "Author details the spy network that took on America's post-WWII Nazi groups", "question_index": 38, "text": "So, last fall, in the fall of 2025, the FBI cut ties with the Anti-Defamation League, which is one of the three groups you write about who sent people undercover to infiltrate the neo-Nazi American groups. What's your reaction to the FBI cutting ties with the Anti-Defamation league?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, again, I don't know the rules that the Southern Poverty Law Center set down for their informants, but it was very clear that the three groups I write about set down very strict guidelines that y"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5797402", "date": "2026-04-23", "guest": "Steven J Ross", "title": "Author details the spy network that took on America's post-WWII Nazi groups", "question_index": 39, "text": "When you wrote your book, did you think it would have an echo just as the book was being published?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's a historical deja vu again. Very early on, when the ADL was spying in the '40s and even the early '50s, the FBI simply ignored them. They tried - they had undercover agents in the Ku Klux"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5797402", "date": "2026-04-23", "guest": "Steven J Ross", "title": "Author details the spy network that took on America's post-WWII Nazi groups", "question_index": 40, "text": "Steve, thanks for this update.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I did, because hate never stops, it just goes underground at different times. And what we're seeing today is one of the themes of my book that this kind of hate started at the end of World War II"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5797402", "date": "2026-04-23", "guest": "Steven J Ross", "title": "Author details the spy network that took on America's post-WWII Nazi groups", "question_index": 41, "text": "Steven J. Ross is the author of the new book \"The Secret War Against Hate: American Resistance To Antisemitism And White Supremacy.\" If you'd like to catch up on FRESH AIR interviews you missed, like Oscar Isaac on starring in the second season of the Netflix series \"Beef\" or my conversation with Nobel Prize winner Malala Yousafzai, check out our podcast. You'll find lots of FRESH AIR interviews. And to find out what's happening behind the scenes of our show and get our producers' recommendations for what to watch, read and listen to, subscribe to our free newsletter at why.org/freshair. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Sam Briger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering this week from Adam Staniszewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Susan Nyakundi, Anna Bauman, and Nico Gonzalez-Wisler. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Thea Chaloner directed today's show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5803848", "date": "2026-04-29", "guest": "Elizabeth Kolbert", "title": "How Trump's EPA head has transformed the agency \u2014 and sided with polluters", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Scientists at the Environmental Protection Agency are being chased out and departments drastically reduced or eliminated. Efforts at the EPA to slow climate change and reduce pollution are constantly being decreased. The head of the EPA, who is behind this change of direction, is Lee Zeldin. President Trump has described him as our secret weapon. Zeldin isn't known for the kind of personal drama and big personality that some other members of the Trump administration are. But he's been very successful in carrying out the dramatic changes in Trump's agenda to undo restrictions on companies that are polluters and on the chemicals in the air and water that harm our health and the environment. My guest, Elizabeth Kolbert, is a Pulitzer Prize-winning environmental journalist and a staff writer for The New Yorker. Her article in the current issue is titled \"Can The E.P.A. Survive Lee Zeldin?\" She's also the author of the bestseller \"The Sixth Extinction.\" Our interview was recorded yesterday. Elizabeth Kolbert, welcome back to FRESH AIR. You start your piece in The New Yorker about Zeldin by saying that last summer, more than 150 staff members of the EPA sent a letter to Zeldin about their concerns about his leadership. What were their concerns?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5803848", "date": "2026-04-29", "guest": "Elizabeth Kolbert", "title": "How Trump's EPA head has transformed the agency \u2014 and sided with polluters", "question_index": 1, "text": "So the response that they got to that letter was most of them were terminated or put on leave.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they listed five areas of concerns, and the first one was that he was terribly partisan, that he would use his public appearances and public communications to attack the other party, sometimes b"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5803848", "date": "2026-04-29", "guest": "Elizabeth Kolbert", "title": "How Trump's EPA head has transformed the agency \u2014 and sided with polluters", "question_index": 2, "text": "Zeldin's response to this letter was to say, we have a zero tolerance policy for agency bureaucrats unlawfully undermining, sabotaging and undercutting the agenda of this administration. The will of the American public will not be ignored. Is it the job of the EPA to carry out the Trump administration's agenda?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. They were put on administrative leave, which is, you know, sort of pending this investigation. And at the end of the day - so months later - many of them were suspended without pay for a few wee"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5803848", "date": "2026-04-29", "guest": "Elizabeth Kolbert", "title": "How Trump's EPA head has transformed the agency \u2014 and sided with polluters", "question_index": 3, "text": "There's a move you describe as a breathtaking assault on the Office of Research and Development - also known as the ORD. So explain what this office does and why it's very important.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, quite simply, the job of the EPA - and this is their stated mission, and remains their stated mission, even now - is to protect public health and the environment. The EPA is really a public heal"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5803848", "date": "2026-04-29", "guest": "Elizabeth Kolbert", "title": "How Trump's EPA head has transformed the agency \u2014 and sided with polluters", "question_index": 4, "text": "So the Office of Research and Development employed about 1,500 people. What were they told about their future? And what happened to that department? Does it exist anymore?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the Office of Research and Development was - is often, or was often, described as EPA's scientific research arm. And it was distinctive in a few ways from other departments at - the EPA was not in "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5803848", "date": "2026-04-29", "guest": "Elizabeth Kolbert", "title": "How Trump's EPA head has transformed the agency \u2014 and sided with polluters", "question_index": 5, "text": "So is there an office that replaced the Office of Research and Development when that was basically eliminated by EPA head Lee Zeldin?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the short answer is no, it does not exist anymore. And what happened was, you know, rumors began to circulate that they were going to get rid of it, and there were all sorts of conversations in "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5803848", "date": "2026-04-29", "guest": "Elizabeth Kolbert", "title": "How Trump's EPA head has transformed the agency \u2014 and sided with polluters", "question_index": 6, "text": "Well, we need to take a short break here, so I'm going to reintroduce you. My guest is Pulitzer Prize-winning environmental journalist Elizabeth Kolbert. Her article in the current issue of The New Yorker is titled \"Can The E.P.A. Survive Lee Zeldin?\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Theoretically, yes, there is a new office - a much smaller office - that is located within headquarters. So there's a lot of concern over what's happening to the independence of the science. And that'"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5803848", "date": "2026-04-29", "guest": "Elizabeth Kolbert", "title": "How Trump's EPA head has transformed the agency \u2014 and sided with polluters", "question_index": 7, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Pulitzer Prize-winning environmental journalist Elizabeth Kolbert. Her article in the current issue of The New Yorker is titled \"Can The E.P.A. Survive Lee Zeldin?\" Zeldin is the head of the Environmental Protection Agency. Kolbert is a staff writer for The New Yorker. You write that the most significant climate change rollback at the EPA under Zeldin has been the rollback of the Endangerment Finding. What is that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Theoretically, yes, there is a new office - a much smaller office - that is located within headquarters. So there's a lot of concern over what's happening to the independence of the science. And that'"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5803848", "date": "2026-04-29", "guest": "Elizabeth Kolbert", "title": "How Trump's EPA head has transformed the agency \u2014 and sided with polluters", "question_index": 8, "text": "He went against the previous EPA heads and decided to try to, you know, wipe out this Endangerment Finding.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the Endangerment Finding goes back to a 2007 Supreme Court decision, Massachusetts v. the EPA, which Richard Lazarus, a Harvard law professor, has called the most important environmental decision t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5803848", "date": "2026-04-29", "guest": "Elizabeth Kolbert", "title": "How Trump's EPA head has transformed the agency \u2014 and sided with polluters", "question_index": 9, "text": "And this was a big subject of a debate - an argument, I should say - that ran, like, around 10 minutes about what the Clean Air Act actually says. And it was an argument between Zeldin, who was testifying before the House Appropriations Committee, and Rosa DeLauro, a Democrat from Connecticut, a member of Congress who is the ranking member of the committee. I'm not going to play that. That just, like, went on and on and on and wasn't terribly clarifying. But I will play a clip from a podcast that you mention in your article in The New Yorker. The podcast is called Ruthless. You describe it basically as a conservative bro kind of podcast. So this is from last July, and they're talking about the Endangerment Finding. And so here's Lee Zeldin explaining why it's so important to cancel the Endangerment Finding.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Right now the Endangerment Finding - they have published the, you know, sort of official revocation or rescission of that finding. So, you know, therefore, we do not find that CO2 is a danger u"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5803848", "date": "2026-04-29", "guest": "Elizabeth Kolbert", "title": "How Trump's EPA head has transformed the agency \u2014 and sided with polluters", "question_index": 10, "text": "So that was Lee Zeldin speaking last July on the podcast \"Ruthless.\" I found it interesting that he said, this has been referred to as a dagger in the heart of the climate change religion. So the first thing I want to ask you about is referring to climate change activism as a religion as opposed to actions to protect the health of people, animals and the Earth itself.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So it's kind of a big deal."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5803848", "date": "2026-04-29", "guest": "Elizabeth Kolbert", "title": "How Trump's EPA head has transformed the agency \u2014 and sided with polluters", "question_index": 11, "text": "So another thing that he's saying in the answer that we just heard from the podcast is that basically, people who are activists for climate change, they're willing to bankrupt the country and choose, instead, like, the most pessimistic worst-case scenario. I've heard him talk about, you know, that this is, like, the most pessimistic worst-case scenario. He chooses to be more optimistic. But he refuses also to bankrupt the country. If we acted more vigorously to protect the Earth from climate change, would that bankrupt the country? And is what he is doing saving the amount of money that he says it will save?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, one of the interesting things about Lee Zeldin is he - you know, he represented this district in eastern Long Island that's very vulnerable to climate change. Sea level rise and flooding are big"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5803848", "date": "2026-04-29", "guest": "Elizabeth Kolbert", "title": "How Trump's EPA head has transformed the agency \u2014 and sided with polluters", "question_index": 12, "text": "Well, even just as a consumer, if the price of cars goes down, the price of insurance for your home in so many places in the country now is going up between wildfires and floods. In places in Florida, insurance is really high, if you can get it at all. And certainly, like, after the West Coast fires, insurance is really unaffordable for so many people.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, if you just take just on a very simple, you know, monetary level, if you look at the analysis for repealing the endangerment finding, they say it's going to save $1.3 trillion, and that's mainly"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5803848", "date": "2026-04-29", "guest": "Elizabeth Kolbert", "title": "How Trump's EPA head has transformed the agency \u2014 and sided with polluters", "question_index": 13, "text": "It's time for another break. So let me reintroduce you. My guest is Pulitzer Prize-winning environmental journalist Elizabeth Kolbert. Her article 0N the current issue of The New Yorker is titled \"Can The E.P.A. Survive Lee Zeldin?\" She's a staff writer at The New Yorker. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, exactly. I mean, the financial implications of climate change are enormous. And we're just talking about, you know, the financial implications. We're not talking about people who will, you know, "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5803848", "date": "2026-04-29", "guest": "Elizabeth Kolbert", "title": "How Trump's EPA head has transformed the agency \u2014 and sided with polluters", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Pulitzer Prize-winning environmental journalist Elizabeth Kolbert. Her article in the current issue of The New Yorker is titled \"Can The E.P.A. Survive Lee Zeldin?\" Zeldin is the head of the EPA and has been very successful in carrying out President Trump's agenda of eliminating many regulations on companies that release pollutants and on chemicals that harm our health and the environment. She's a staff writer at The New Yorker. And also, she's the author of the best-selling book \"The Sixth Extinction.\" So getting back to the Endangerment Finding, so right now that has been rescinded by the head of the EPA, Lee Zeldin. There are many lawsuits - right? - about that rescission.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, exactly. I mean, the financial implications of climate change are enormous. And we're just talking about, you know, the financial implications. We're not talking about people who will, you know, "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5803848", "date": "2026-04-29", "guest": "Elizabeth Kolbert", "title": "How Trump's EPA head has transformed the agency \u2014 and sided with polluters", "question_index": 15, "text": "OK. OK. But - and that's working or will work its way through the courts and most likely end up in the Supreme Court, do you think?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they'll probably all be consolidated into, you know, one big lawsuit. And so..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5803848", "date": "2026-04-29", "guest": "Elizabeth Kolbert", "title": "How Trump's EPA head has transformed the agency \u2014 and sided with polluters", "question_index": 16, "text": "So in the meantime, the fact that it's been rescinded is how they're proceeding. They're not waiting to see what the courts have to say. Right now they're acting as if it's legally rescinded.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I guess the question is whether the court will want to take it on, given, you know, that it has this precedent of Massachusetts v. EPA. But I think that the sort of betting would be that, yes, i"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5803848", "date": "2026-04-29", "guest": "Elizabeth Kolbert", "title": "How Trump's EPA head has transformed the agency \u2014 and sided with polluters", "question_index": 17, "text": "One of the things we've been seeing during this second Trump administration is that the courts are so much slower than the ability of people who are heading agencies and Cabinets - you know, Cabinet secretaries. The courts are slower than the leaders' abilities to dismantle whole agencies and departments, to terminate, like, thousands of people, experts. Like, tariffs is such a good example. Like, the Supreme Court says that, you know, Trump's tariffs are illegal long after he collected the money from the tariffs. And now he's supposed to give it back, that's going to be really difficult probably both financially and bureaucratically. Have you ever seen anything like this, where there's such a discrepancy between so many actions and the delay of the courts to actually give a definitive answer on those actions?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And they have also, in sort of separate actions, rolled back or rescinded the latest sets of regulations that were designed under the Biden administration to reduce CO2 emissions from cars, which"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5803848", "date": "2026-04-29", "guest": "Elizabeth Kolbert", "title": "How Trump's EPA head has transformed the agency \u2014 and sided with polluters", "question_index": 18, "text": "A subject of debate now has to do with the wording of the Clean Air Act. And this was a subject of debate Monday at the House Appropriations Committee meeting - hearing between the Democratic ranking member of the committee and EPA head Lee Zeldin. So Zeldin was saying the Clean Air Act doesn't mention climate change. Would you explain the significance of what he's saying and the validity of the argument he's making?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think we have to conclude that's a very deliberate strategy. I was talking to William K. Reilly, who ran the EPA under George H. W. Bush, and he is, you know, no fan of current leadership. And"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5803848", "date": "2026-04-29", "guest": "Elizabeth Kolbert", "title": "How Trump's EPA head has transformed the agency \u2014 and sided with polluters", "question_index": 19, "text": "They being...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the Clean Air Act was written, or what we consider the Clean Air Act is written in 1970 at a time when climate change, you know, was known about in certain circles, but it wasn't a major issue. "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5803848", "date": "2026-04-29", "guest": "Elizabeth Kolbert", "title": "How Trump's EPA head has transformed the agency \u2014 and sided with polluters", "question_index": 20, "text": "...The Trump administration.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Way..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5803848", "date": "2026-04-29", "guest": "Elizabeth Kolbert", "title": "How Trump's EPA head has transformed the agency \u2014 and sided with polluters", "question_index": 21, "text": "Well, we need to take a short break here, so I'm going to reintroduce you. My guest is Pulitzer Prize-winning environmental journalist Elizabeth Kolbert. Her article in the current issue of The New Yorker is titled \"Can The E.P.A. Survive Lee Zeldin?\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They being the Trump administration. And they're sort of a grab bag of legal arguments, but they all do revolve around the wording of the Clean Air Act. And one of their arguments is that something is"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5803848", "date": "2026-04-29", "guest": "Elizabeth Kolbert", "title": "How Trump's EPA head has transformed the agency \u2014 and sided with polluters", "question_index": 22, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Pulitzer Prize-winning environmental journalist Elizabeth Kolbert. Her article in the current Issue of The New Yorker is titled \"Can The E.P.A. Survive Lee Zeldin?\" Zeldin is the head of the Environmental Protection Agency. Kolbert is a staff writer for The New Yorker. So before we get back to Lee Zeldin, I want to ask you of something that's happening on a parallel track. The independent board that oversees the National Science Foundation was basically terminated. So what does the National Science Foundation do, and what was the board's role in doing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They being the Trump administration. And they're sort of a grab bag of legal arguments, but they all do revolve around the wording of the Clean Air Act. And one of their arguments is that something is"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5803848", "date": "2026-04-29", "guest": "Elizabeth Kolbert", "title": "How Trump's EPA head has transformed the agency \u2014 and sided with polluters", "question_index": 23, "text": "I don't know if you can speak to this or not 'cause this isn't really, like, your beat, but is there something transactional going on here between the Trump administration and lobbyists for companies that are polluters?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the National Science Foundation disperses, I'm sure, billions of dollars to do scientific research. You know, that's their job. And they have an advisory board that sort of guides them in a very"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5803848", "date": "2026-04-29", "guest": "Elizabeth Kolbert", "title": "How Trump's EPA head has transformed the agency \u2014 and sided with polluters", "question_index": 24, "text": "I want to ask you about the MAHA Moms - the Make America Healthy Again Moms. And they were considered to be Trump allies in part because many of the MAHA Moms are anti-vax, and Trump and some members of his administration, most notably RFK Jr., have been or remain antivaxers. However, they have gotten pretty upset about some of Lee Zeldin's actions at the Environmental Protection Agency because he is not regulating some chemicals that are known to harm children. So tell us more about what's making the MAHA Moms upset.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I can't point to you, you know, direct ways in which Donald Trump is sort of, you know, lining his own pockets through this, although there was a very famous moment during the 2024 campaign wher"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5803848", "date": "2026-04-29", "guest": "Elizabeth Kolbert", "title": "How Trump's EPA head has transformed the agency \u2014 and sided with polluters", "question_index": 25, "text": "What makes it doubtful?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So, you know, the MAHA Moms who are a somewhat heterogeneous group, and different people have different priorities, but many, many influential, you know, MAHA Moms, which is, itself, a sort of -"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5803848", "date": "2026-04-29", "guest": "Elizabeth Kolbert", "title": "How Trump's EPA head has transformed the agency \u2014 and sided with polluters", "question_index": 26, "text": "So the war with Iran and the closing of the Strait of Hormuz has shown us some of the dangers of depending on fossil fuels because those fossil fuel - like, the ships that carry the fossil fuels aren't getting through the strait. And this is having a much larger effect on countries in Europe, in parts of Asia and Africa. And I think Trump might not be feeling terribly affected by this 'cause he thinks that, like, we're winning 'cause we have a sufficient amount of fossil fuel, although we're paying a fortune for it at gas stations now. But has Zeldin or other people in the EPA been speaking to that dependence on fossil fuels as opposed to independent clean energy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So one of the decisions they were touting as a MAHA win had to do with chemicals called phthalates, which are in a tremendous number of consumer products and are thought to be potential endocrine disr"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5803848", "date": "2026-04-29", "guest": "Elizabeth Kolbert", "title": "How Trump's EPA head has transformed the agency \u2014 and sided with polluters", "question_index": 27, "text": "Let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Elizabeth Kolbert. She has a new article in The New Yorker, where she's a staff writer. The article is called \"Can The E.P.A. Survive Lee Zeldin?\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When Lee Zeldin took over the EPA, as we talked about before, it had a very simple mission. It still officially has the mission to protect public health and the environment, but he added these other p"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5803848", "date": "2026-04-29", "guest": "Elizabeth Kolbert", "title": "How Trump's EPA head has transformed the agency \u2014 and sided with polluters", "question_index": 28, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Pulitzer Prize-winning environmental journalist Elizabeth Kolbert. Her article in the current issue of The New Yorker is titled \"Can The E.P.A. Survive Lee Zeldin?\" Zeldin is the head of the Environmental Protection Agency and has been very successful in carrying out President Trump's agenda. What did he do before he was appointed to the EPA that impressed Trump?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When Lee Zeldin took over the EPA, as we talked about before, it had a very simple mission. It still officially has the mission to protect public health and the environment, but he added these other p"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5803848", "date": "2026-04-29", "guest": "Elizabeth Kolbert", "title": "How Trump's EPA head has transformed the agency \u2014 and sided with polluters", "question_index": 29, "text": "And what did he do in support of Trump after Trump claimed to have won the 2020 election?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So Lee Zeldin was a congressman from Long Island from 2014 to 2022. And in 2019, I think, is when he really attracted President Trump's attention. That was when we got, you know, what would later come"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5803848", "date": "2026-04-29", "guest": "Elizabeth Kolbert", "title": "How Trump's EPA head has transformed the agency \u2014 and sided with polluters", "question_index": 30, "text": "Well, out of office during the Biden presidency, he founded a consulting firm whose clients included the America First Policy Institute, which hired people from the first Trump administration and became a source for people in Trump's second administration. It was sometimes even referred to as the White House in waiting. I guess that also won Trump's favor.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, he was one of those Republicans out there very vigorously arguing that there had been irregularities in the voting, which, you know, were obviously never - have never been substantiated. There a"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5803848", "date": "2026-04-29", "guest": "Elizabeth Kolbert", "title": "How Trump's EPA head has transformed the agency \u2014 and sided with polluters", "question_index": 31, "text": "So you mentioned that there were rumors that Zeldin would be considered as a replacement for Attorney General Pam Bondi. Todd Blanche is filling in as acting attorney general, and he's certainly been loyal to President Trump. Do you think that Zeldin is actually being considered now for attorney general?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I think in the process of working with a lot of these people, you know, sort of former - once and future Trump people, I think that he was popular among that group that was around Trump. And that"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5803848", "date": "2026-04-29", "guest": "Elizabeth Kolbert", "title": "How Trump's EPA head has transformed the agency \u2014 and sided with polluters", "question_index": 32, "text": "Elizabeth Kolbert, I want to thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm definitely not inside the Trump administration. I think that - you know, Blanche is the acting AG. He can serve - I think it's, like, 210 or 230 days in that position, and then either Trump has to"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5803848", "date": "2026-04-29", "guest": "Elizabeth Kolbert", "title": "How Trump's EPA head has transformed the agency \u2014 and sided with polluters", "question_index": 33, "text": "Elizabeth Kolbert is a staff writer for The New Yorker. Her article in the current issue is titled \"Can The E.P.A. Survive Lee Zeldin?\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be Richard Gadd, the creator and star of \"Baby Reindeer.\" It was an unexpected hit on Netflix in 2024 and won six Emmys. The series drew on Gadd's experiences being sexually abused and then stalked. Now Gadd explores toxic masculinity and repression in his new HBO series, \"Half Man.\" I hope you'll join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram - @nprfreshair.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks so much for having me."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5803848", "date": "2026-04-29", "guest": "Elizabeth Kolbert", "title": "How Trump's EPA head has transformed the agency \u2014 and sided with polluters", "question_index": 34, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Sam Briger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez-Wisler. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks so much for having me."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5810185", "date": "2026-05-04", "guest": "Douglas Stuart", "title": "In 'John of John,' father and son are gay -- and they're keeping it from each other", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. You may have read my guest's books. You may have worn the clothes he designed. Douglas Stuart's first novel, \"Shuggie Bain\" won the Booker Prize, which is one of the world's top literary awards. Much of it was written when Stuart was working in the fashion industry designing clothes for popular brands like Calvin Klein and Banana Republic. Stuart wouldn't have predicted any of this from what his life was like growing up in a working-class neighborhood in Glasgow, Scotland in the '80s. He was raised by a single mother who was addicted to alcohol. Things weren't much better at school where he was relentlessly bullied. When he came to understand that he was gay, he didn't know anyone else who was. The novel \"Shuggie Bain\" tells a story very similar to Stuart's own childhood. Stuart has described his second novel, \"Young Mungo,\" as a story about the dangers of first love between two young working-class men in Glasgow and about masculinity, conformity and falling in love. In our book critic Maureen Corrigan's review, she wrote, it's hard to imagine a more disquieting and powerful work of fiction will be published anytime soon about the perils of being different. Douglas Stuart has a new novel called \"John Of John\" that explores themes of faith, obligation and how isolating secrets can be. It's set on a fictional island in Scotland's Hebrides in a very old-fashioned conservative community of weavers. There are two Johns in the story, a father and his son. The son is known as Cal. Cal has just graduated textile school in Glasgow and reluctantly returns home when his father insists he needs Cal's help to take care of Cal's sick grandmother. Cal is gay and keeps it a secret from everyone - including his father. But as we learn early in the story, the father - who is the deacon of his church - is also secretly gay. Father and son are keeping the same secret from each other. Douglas Stuart, welcome to FRESH AIR, and congratulations on your new book. Can you describe how you landed on the premise that both the father and son are gay, and they're not only keeping it a secret from everyone else, they're keeping it a secret from each other?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5810185", "date": "2026-05-04", "guest": "Douglas Stuart", "title": "In 'John of John,' father and son are gay -- and they're keeping it from each other", "question_index": 1, "text": "What does being gay mean to the father - who's a weaver, who's never left the island and doesn't even want to leave? He's the deacon of his church and often quotes the Bible, compared to the son who left the island for art school and returns reluctantly to the island when his father calls him back?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yes. I mean, I am a Scotsman who grew up in Glasgow, but I had never been to the Outer Hebrides before. You know, they're quite far from the mainland and it takes some effort to get there. But i"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5810185", "date": "2026-05-04", "guest": "Douglas Stuart", "title": "In 'John of John,' father and son are gay -- and they're keeping it from each other", "question_index": 2, "text": "So you grew up in a neighborhood in Glasgow where it was working-class, like, very, like, masculine. You were an outsider because you were seen as gay, even though you hadn't told anybody that you were gay. There were no gay bars. There was no gay culture. There were no gay publications. What did it mean to you or what lack of meaning did you find growing up so isolated?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think they're definitely men of a different generation, although tradition is very strong in the setting of the novel. And for John, because he is very close to scripture, he is part of a chur"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5810185", "date": "2026-05-04", "guest": "Douglas Stuart", "title": "In 'John of John,' father and son are gay -- and they're keeping it from each other", "question_index": 3, "text": "Were you a churchgoer? Was your mother a churchgoer?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "en masse and said, what is wrong with you? Why are you like that? And so I was just deemed as being too effeminate, very, very young - and that was before I had any sexual notions at all, but that sor"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5810185", "date": "2026-05-04", "guest": "Douglas Stuart", "title": "In 'John of John,' father and son are gay -- and they're keeping it from each other", "question_index": 4, "text": "My guest is Douglas Stuart. His debut novel, \"Shuggie Bain,\" won the Booker Prize in 2020. His new novel is called \"John Of John.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, I had a really complicated relationship with religion when I was a child. I was actually what was essentially born into a mixed marriage. My father is Protestant, my mother was Catholic. And"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5810185", "date": "2026-05-04", "guest": "Douglas Stuart", "title": "In 'John of John,' father and son are gay -- and they're keeping it from each other", "question_index": 5, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my conversation with Booker Prize winner Douglas Stuart, author of the novels \"Shuggie Bain\" and \"Young Mungo.\" Stuart studied textiles in college, as did the main character in his new novel, \"John Of John.\" So you went to art school. You had shown some artistic talent, but you needed work. So your teacher, who had taken you under her wing, advised you to go to art school and study textiles, and then you could have a trade, basically, or a craft. So did you go to art school to become a weaver? Like, what was the meaning of studying textiles when you went?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, I had a really complicated relationship with religion when I was a child. I was actually what was essentially born into a mixed marriage. My father is Protestant, my mother was Catholic. And"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5810185", "date": "2026-05-04", "guest": "Douglas Stuart", "title": "In 'John of John,' father and son are gay -- and they're keeping it from each other", "question_index": 6, "text": "That's an amazing story about being, like, one student with two teachers and just talking about - you know, just the three of you talking about literature. I could see how you could fall in love with books that way. But how did that lead to textiles?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In fact, when I was 16 and I was guided towards textiles, I couldn't quite tell you what the word textile meant. I - you know, I'm often asked as a writer, what was your favorite childhood book? What "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5810185", "date": "2026-05-04", "guest": "Douglas Stuart", "title": "In 'John of John,' father and son are gay -- and they're keeping it from each other", "question_index": 7, "text": "In your new novel, \"John Of John,\" the son studies textiles and becomes a weaver on this kind of isolated island in the Hebrides of Scotland. And at the time - and this is happening to so many people now. The thing that he studied in college has just become basically out of date. You know, the textile mills are closing. People aren't wearing the tweeds they used to wear. So he can't find a job either on the islands or, you know, where he went to school. So he joins his father on the one loom that they're allowed, which is interesting right there. There was this, like, one-loom-per-family rule in the Outer Hebrides at the time, or at least on this island. Would you explain why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, it was wonderful to be around people who had this passion for a thing, and they invested that passion in you. But they saw that I couldn't go on to compete and study English literature"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5810185", "date": "2026-05-04", "guest": "Douglas Stuart", "title": "In 'John of John,' father and son are gay -- and they're keeping it from each other", "question_index": 8, "text": "When Cal decides to go to textile school, his father doesn't really love the idea. And there's a passage from your book I'd like you to read about that because it shows off your writing. And it also ties together the father's very conservative version of Presbyterianism and also his self-imposed homophobia, because he's secretly gay. Before the reading, I just want to remind our listeners that John is the father and Cal is the son. And Ella is Cal's grandmother.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. You're right. Everything at this time moves to the Far East, and nothing is made in the West, and textiles, as an industry, is on its knees. But there's a wonderful tradition on the Outer Hebrid"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5810185", "date": "2026-05-04", "guest": "Douglas Stuart", "title": "In 'John of John,' father and son are gay -- and they're keeping it from each other", "question_index": 9, "text": "Thank you for reading that. I really like that passage. And it shows how all-encompassing the homophobia and the very conservative religious beliefs that the father has, how all of that is used in an attempt to shape John's son, Cal's behavior. No one was telling you all that, were they?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Reading) John had a Presbyterian respect for education. But there was too much of the unknown about university life, and there was something about art schools that sent him into a moral panic. The no"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5810185", "date": "2026-05-04", "guest": "Douglas Stuart", "title": "In 'John of John,' father and son are gay -- and they're keeping it from each other", "question_index": 10, "text": "Wow. What a strange burden to carry to think that as a brother, you didn't teach your younger brother masculinity well enough, and therefore, he's gay and a total outsider.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in fact, you know, I - my father left my mother when I was about 4 years old. So my brother, my older brother, had to step into the father role in my family. You know, when I came out eventually"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5810185", "date": "2026-05-04", "guest": "Douglas Stuart", "title": "In 'John of John,' father and son are gay -- and they're keeping it from each other", "question_index": 11, "text": "My guest is Douglas Stuart. His new novel is called \"John Of John.\" He won the Booker Prize for his first novel, \"Shuggie Bain.\" We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, and it's his fault. And in fact, I mean, what a sort of noble burden, in a way, to sort of care about someone in that way and to take all that guilt in yourself. But, you know, it was such a dar"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5810185", "date": "2026-05-04", "guest": "Douglas Stuart", "title": "In 'John of John,' father and son are gay -- and they're keeping it from each other", "question_index": 12, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Booker Prize-winning novelist Douglas Stuart. Like the main characters of his first two novels, \"Shuggie Bain\" and \"Young Mungo,\" Stuart grew up in Glasgow in the '80s. He was working class, queer and his mother was addicted to alcohol. She died when Stuart was only a teenager. He then went on to have a career in fashion in New York. He'd studied textiles in college, which figures into his new novel, \"John Of John.\" You grew up in a very female environment. Your mother was a single mother. She was addicted to alcohol, as were some of her friends. So when you'd come home from school, your mother was often drinking with some of her friends - some of her female friends - who were also drinkers. A lot of the men in the community were unemployed, so a lot of the men drank too much, too. But was there, like - were the women drinkers, like, different in any fundamental way than the men drinkers in the communities that they had with each other? Like, your mother did a lot of drinking at home with friends or in their homes. The men probably mostly went to bars, away from the wife and kids.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, and it's his fault. And in fact, I mean, what a sort of noble burden, in a way, to sort of care about someone in that way and to take all that guilt in yourself. But, you know, it was such a dar"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5810185", "date": "2026-05-04", "guest": "Douglas Stuart", "title": "In 'John of John,' father and son are gay -- and they're keeping it from each other", "question_index": 13, "text": "I can't ask you to repeat what she - what you overheard about sexuality. Can't - we can't talk about that on the radio.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's exactly it, yeah. I think when men drink or when they have a problem, then it can be a very public thing, and we can forgive them for it. But there's an extra layer of stigma when a woman fails"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5810185", "date": "2026-05-04", "guest": "Douglas Stuart", "title": "In 'John of John,' father and son are gay -- and they're keeping it from each other", "question_index": 14, "text": "However...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5810185", "date": "2026-05-04", "guest": "Douglas Stuart", "title": "In 'John of John,' father and son are gay -- and they're keeping it from each other", "question_index": 15, "text": "You grew up keeping a lot of secrets. I mean, I think you didn't want everybody to know that your mother was alcoholic, what life was like at home, how confusing and sometimes dangerous it could be. You had to keep a secret that you were gay. And she kept secrets from you, and even, like, you know, hiding the alcohol - hiding half-used bottles of beer and alcohol. What would you do if you found those partially used bottles and cans?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, you can't talk about it anywhere. It was often very vulgar and very frank, and, you know - and like I said, at the time - as a kid - I would be horrified, and I would be scandalized. And now, as"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5810185", "date": "2026-05-04", "guest": "Douglas Stuart", "title": "In 'John of John,' father and son are gay -- and they're keeping it from each other", "question_index": 16, "text": "It's funny. Like, you were saying before that your brother felt that masculinity is learned and that he didn't do enough to teach you how to be masculine. And so your brother was at fault, and he felt very guilty. At the same time, you were feeling guilty that you weren't doing enough to save your mother from her addiction. So it sounds like your whole family were feeling guilty about things they shouldn't have had to feel guilty about.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I think my whole childhood was about secrets on all sorts of levels - but, you know, my mother's drinking was a difficult thing to manage. You know, I was sort of thrust into a caregiving role"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5810185", "date": "2026-05-04", "guest": "Douglas Stuart", "title": "In 'John of John,' father and son are gay -- and they're keeping it from each other", "question_index": 17, "text": "Well, we need to take another break here, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Douglas Stuart, whose new novel is called \"John Of John.\" His first novel, \"Shuggie Bain\" won Britain's highest literary prize, the Booker Prize. We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think so. And I think that as a writer now, that's become a through line in all of my work - about when a family is disorganized or something's not working when a parent can't function or a brother "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5810185", "date": "2026-05-04", "guest": "Douglas Stuart", "title": "In 'John of John,' father and son are gay -- and they're keeping it from each other", "question_index": 18, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Booker Prize-winning novelist Douglas Stuart. His new novel is called \"John Of John.\" What did you think masculinity meant when you were growing up - when people made it clear that you weren't masculine enough?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think so. And I think that as a writer now, that's become a through line in all of my work - about when a family is disorganized or something's not working when a parent can't function or a brother "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5810185", "date": "2026-05-04", "guest": "Douglas Stuart", "title": "In 'John of John,' father and son are gay -- and they're keeping it from each other", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, they were - I always remember, as a kid, you know, I was quite expressive. And I remember my brother buying a new shirt, and it was like a check shirt, and it was blue - overwhelmingly blue - bu"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5810185", "date": "2026-05-04", "guest": "Douglas Stuart", "title": "In 'John of John,' father and son are gay -- and they're keeping it from each other", "question_index": 20, "text": "When you were able to dress yourself, how did you dress and what did you want your clothes to say?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They really have themself in their own trap. And I was only like 12 or 13, but I just thought that's - this is insane."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5810185", "date": "2026-05-04", "guest": "Douglas Stuart", "title": "In 'John of John,' father and son are gay -- and they're keeping it from each other", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think one of the things that sort of made me very conspicuous to the - these other boys was the fact that my mother dressed me for all of my childhood - which is not unusual for children, but "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5810185", "date": "2026-05-04", "guest": "Douglas Stuart", "title": "In 'John of John,' father and son are gay -- and they're keeping it from each other", "question_index": 22, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...She had, you know. I have very carefully-parted hair. I look at least 30 years older than I am..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5810185", "date": "2026-05-04", "guest": "Douglas Stuart", "title": "In 'John of John,' father and son are gay -- and they're keeping it from each other", "question_index": 23, "text": "Once you figured out you were gay, and once you got out of the community that you grew up in and there really was gay culture and gay bars, and you started going to them, how did you feel about being at bars - being at places where, you know, consumption revolved around alcohol, which your mother was addicted to, and you saw the price of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...When I'm like, you know, 8 years old - and I look back on it now, and I'm just so out of time with all the other boys who were a little bit sort of shabby and knock-about and doing that. And so my "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5810185", "date": "2026-05-04", "guest": "Douglas Stuart", "title": "In 'John of John,' father and son are gay -- and they're keeping it from each other", "question_index": 24, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I felt that was a part of gay history in my city that I didn't access. Yeah, I always, I think, felt ill at ease in gay bars, even when I came of age and I was 18 - and mostly because I was lookin"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5810185", "date": "2026-05-04", "guest": "Douglas Stuart", "title": "In 'John of John,' father and son are gay -- and they're keeping it from each other", "question_index": 25, "text": "Wait, how did you react when you showed up and found him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Sweet and innocent they are. You know, it's like, tell me about the weather where you are and explain your family to me and, you know, have you seen anything good on television? And when I think ab"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5810185", "date": "2026-05-04", "guest": "Douglas Stuart", "title": "In 'John of John,' father and son are gay -- and they're keeping it from each other", "question_index": 26, "text": "And you couldn't ask anybody for advice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I was devastated and sort of horrified. And one of the things that stays with me about those times is because I couldn't be honest with my family, because I couldn't tell my friends, I put mys"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5810185", "date": "2026-05-04", "guest": "Douglas Stuart", "title": "In 'John of John,' father and son are gay -- and they're keeping it from each other", "question_index": 27, "text": "What did she say?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I couldn't ask anybody. I couldn't talk to my brother about it. There was no - I had to sort of - that's really the universal gay experience of the time. I think we were all fumbling forward to find o"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5810185", "date": "2026-05-04", "guest": "Douglas Stuart", "title": "In 'John of John,' father and son are gay -- and they're keeping it from each other", "question_index": 28, "text": "Let's take another short break here. My guest is Douglas Stuart, author of the novels \"Shuggie Bain\" and \"Young Mungo.\" His new novel is called \"John Of John.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think she was heartbroken. You know, I think she felt so - she's always been a huge supporter of me. I love my sister dearly. And I think - you know, I think when the person you love is suffering th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5810185", "date": "2026-05-04", "guest": "Douglas Stuart", "title": "In 'John of John,' father and son are gay -- and they're keeping it from each other", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Booker Prize winner Douglas Stuart. His new novel is called \"John Of John.\" So you lived in the fashion - you worked in the fashion world for about 10 years.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think she was heartbroken. You know, I think she felt so - she's always been a huge supporter of me. I love my sister dearly. And I think - you know, I think when the person you love is suffering th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5810185", "date": "2026-05-04", "guest": "Douglas Stuart", "title": "In 'John of John,' father and son are gay -- and they're keeping it from each other", "question_index": 30, "text": "Twenty years. Oh. Oh, longer than I thought. So I think it was when you were in textile school that, you know, various companies and industries came to the school to scout for talent. And I think that's how the Calvin Klein company found you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Twenty years. Sorry."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5810185", "date": "2026-05-04", "guest": "Douglas Stuart", "title": "In 'John of John,' father and son are gay -- and they're keeping it from each other", "question_index": 31, "text": "You said that you liked fashion - and I assume this means, like, designing fashion - that's both revealing and/or concealing. Can you talk about that a little?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. Yeah, I was just wrapping up my education. And I thought I was going to go into the mill system. I thought I was going to go into a very traditional employment and make cloth and make te"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5810185", "date": "2026-05-04", "guest": "Douglas Stuart", "title": "In 'John of John,' father and son are gay -- and they're keeping it from each other", "question_index": 32, "text": "What do you consider to be one of the things that you designed when you were working with Calvin Klein that most speaks to either how you see masculinity or how you see yourself or what you think a garment should do.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think, you know, starting in my childhood, I realized that clothes are always deeply psychological. And we're always projecting something, who we want to be, and at the same time maybe conceal"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5810185", "date": "2026-05-04", "guest": "Douglas Stuart", "title": "In 'John of John,' father and son are gay -- and they're keeping it from each other", "question_index": 33, "text": "Oh, I didn't know that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Actually, the thing I'm most proud of comes after Calvin Klein. I actually was one of the heads of menswear design at Banana Republic for 15 years."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5810185", "date": "2026-05-04", "guest": "Douglas Stuart", "title": "In 'John of John,' father and son are gay -- and they're keeping it from each other", "question_index": 34, "text": "You designed underwear?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, in the early 2000s, when everybody was wearing Banana Republic. And I got to tell you, as sort of a young working-class boy from a socialist country, it was such a thrill to come off the subway "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5810185", "date": "2026-05-04", "guest": "Douglas Stuart", "title": "In 'John of John,' father and son are gay -- and they're keeping it from each other", "question_index": 35, "text": "Wait. I want to hear about the underwear.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I designed everything as a knitwear expert..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5810185", "date": "2026-05-04", "guest": "Douglas Stuart", "title": "In 'John of John,' father and son are gay -- and they're keeping it from each other", "question_index": 36, "text": "You're part of the art world now, too, because your husband is the curator of a gallery in New York. So I'm sure you've gone to your share of openings. You have a new story in The New Yorker about the opening of an art show. It's a totally different world from the world you grew up in. And you've said - you've written that the boy you were wouldn't recognize the man you've become. What would be most unrecognizable?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I designed, yeah, lots and lots of underwear. And one of the very funny things is when you're fitting underwear on a model, you know, you've got to essentially make the garment fit as well as yo"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5810185", "date": "2026-05-04", "guest": "Douglas Stuart", "title": "In 'John of John,' father and son are gay -- and they're keeping it from each other", "question_index": 37, "text": "Do you think that writing is a way to try to - I guess maybe you just said that. Maybe this is basically what you just said, that writing is a way of integrating both sides of your life. Because you're writing so much about characters who are based in part on the earlier part of your life.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I think this is why I write everything is because I feel like two very disconnected people. I don't think the boy that I was could imagine that this kind of life I'm living now is possible, that I"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5810185", "date": "2026-05-04", "guest": "Douglas Stuart", "title": "In 'John of John,' father and son are gay -- and they're keeping it from each other", "question_index": 38, "text": "You had to keep so many secrets when you were growing up. And as a writer, you write about secrets and you uncover characters' secrets. And in doing so, you've revealed some of your own secrets because you're drawing on your own life, and you're interviewed a lot, and you talk about your own life. So it's kind of like you've gotten to the opposite side of the street on that. So where do you stand on secrets now and when they're toxic and when it's really about an earned privacy, you know, a healthy privacy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I'd concealed so much of myself. I was taught that at a very young age - not to be fully honest with whoever I was with about every single part of myself. And it's only now as an adult that "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5810185", "date": "2026-05-04", "guest": "Douglas Stuart", "title": "In 'John of John,' father and son are gay -- and they're keeping it from each other", "question_index": 39, "text": "So one more question. Since we talked about the importance of clothes and fashion in your life and designing fashion, what did you wear to your wedding?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right, yeah. You know, when \"Shuggie Bain\" first published, there's a sort of a group of interviews I gave at the very beginning where I said the novel was entirely fictional. I didn't know whe"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5810185", "date": "2026-05-04", "guest": "Douglas Stuart", "title": "In 'John of John,' father and son are gay -- and they're keeping it from each other", "question_index": 40, "text": "Douglas Stuart, it's been such a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So my own wedding was kind of upstaged by the much more famous people that came a couple of couples after me."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5810185", "date": "2026-05-04", "guest": "Douglas Stuart", "title": "In 'John of John,' father and son are gay -- and they're keeping it from each other", "question_index": 41, "text": "Douglas Stuart's new novel is called \"John Of John.\" Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be the legal scholar who coined the terms critical race theory and intersectionality, Kimberle Williams Crenshaw. She wanted those expressions to help describe racial and gender discrimination in America. Her new memoir explains the personal and legal reasons behind her thinking. I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. It's been an honor."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5810185", "date": "2026-05-04", "guest": "Douglas Stuart", "title": "In 'John of John,' father and son are gay -- and they're keeping it from each other", "question_index": 42, "text": "To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram - @nprfreshair. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Sam Briger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez-Wisler. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you, Terry. It's been an honor."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5813505", "date": "2026-05-06", "guest": "George Packer", "title": "How Silicon Valley's new tech right has profited by aligning with MAGA", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. In the early days of internet startups, tech innovators in the Silicon Valley were seen as young idealists who developed their creations in their garages, bedrooms or at the universities where they were students. But recently, many Silicon Valley leaders have become identified with the right, with President Donald Trump and MAGA. These tech billionaires are now often referred to as oligarchs because of their money, power and access to the White House. How and why this alliance was formed is the subject of a new report in The Atlantic by my guest, George Packer. He shows how lucrative this alliance has been for the venture capitalists and for Trump. Packer writes that Trump's crypto wealth has grown by at least $7.5 billion since 2024. His article is titled \"The Venture-Capital Populist: How David Sacks And The New Tech Right Went Full MAGA And Captured Washington.\" Sacks co-founded the venture capital fund Craft Ventures. He served as President Trump's special adviser for artificial intelligence and cryptocurrency. He's now co-chair of the President's Council of Advisors on Science and Technology. Sacks was an early investor in Facebook, Uber, SpaceX, Palantir Technologies and Airbnb, was PayPal's first head of products and served as COO. He's also one of the hosts of the tech podcast \"All-In.\" George Packer is a staff writer at The Atlantic, focusing on American politics, culture and U.S. foreign policy. He previously was a staff writer at The New Yorker. He won a National Book Award for \"The Unwinding: An Inner History Of The New America.\" His latest book is the novel \"The Emergency.\" George Packer, welcome back to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5813505", "date": "2026-05-06", "guest": "George Packer", "title": "How Silicon Valley's new tech right has profited by aligning with MAGA", "question_index": 1, "text": "I want to start with a clip, and this is a clip of Sacks speaking at the White House in March of 2025. The occasion was a cryptocurrency summit at the White House.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Good to be back with you, Terry."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5813505", "date": "2026-05-06", "guest": "George Packer", "title": "How Silicon Valley's new tech right has profited by aligning with MAGA", "question_index": 2, "text": "So that was recorded in March of 2025. You describe Sacks as a venture-capital populist. Why did you put those two usually oppositional words together to describe him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We have about 30 of them here in the room today. These are the top people in the digital asset industry. And one other thing that I think that you love is legal fairness. This is an industry that was "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5813505", "date": "2026-05-06", "guest": "George Packer", "title": "How Silicon Valley's new tech right has profited by aligning with MAGA", "question_index": 3, "text": "Well, you use Sacks as a kind of stand-in for the tech billionaires who have become aligned with MAGA. So what changed? Why the sudden shift from people who used to support Democrats? Even if they identified as libertarian, when it came to Democrats versus Republicans, the political support often went to the Democrats. So how do you account for the switch to Trump?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a bit of an irony because I don't think the two are compatible, and I think we're finding out almost by the day that they are not compatible. But I put them together because Sacks puts them toget"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5813505", "date": "2026-05-06", "guest": "George Packer", "title": "How Silicon Valley's new tech right has profited by aligning with MAGA", "question_index": 4, "text": "You write that the courtship between Silicon Valley and MAGA consummated on June 6, 2024, in San Francisco's Pacific Heights neighborhood on a street known as Billionaires' Row at the $45 million French limestone mansion of venture capitalist David Sacks. So what was this dinner? It was a fundraising dinner. Why was it so pivotal in creating the alliance between Silicon Valley billionaires, venture capitalists and Trump and MAGA?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think for Silicon Valley, libertarianism has always been the default political view, but it's not a hard-edged Milton Friedman, Friedrich Hayek kind of libertarianism. It's softer. It's a liberal li"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5813505", "date": "2026-05-06", "guest": "George Packer", "title": "How Silicon Valley's new tech right has profited by aligning with MAGA", "question_index": 5, "text": "I just want to interject here that - for people who don't know or who have forgotten that Vance used to work for Peter Thiel. And Peter Thiel was a founder of PayPal and is one of the billionaire venture capitalists.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, as Sacks said on his podcast just a week before the fundraiser, he knew that a lot of people in the tech world, people up at his level - and by then, he was one of the leading venture capitalist"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5813505", "date": "2026-05-06", "guest": "George Packer", "title": "How Silicon Valley's new tech right has profited by aligning with MAGA", "question_index": 6, "text": "At this fundraising dinner, they raised $12 million for Trump. And then when Trump was in office - I'm quoting you here. Back in office, he pardoned convicted crypto executives, neutered consumer protections, ended investigations by the Security and Exchange Commission into crypto firms with ties to Trump's businesses and disbanded the Justice Department's Crypto Enforcement Team. That seems like a lot. How quickly did he do all of that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And we should talk about Peter Thiel 'cause he has played a very important role both in JD Vance's career, but also in the life of David Sacks. They were at Stanford together, Thiel as a law student, "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5813505", "date": "2026-05-06", "guest": "George Packer", "title": "How Silicon Valley's new tech right has profited by aligning with MAGA", "question_index": 7, "text": "Well, we need to take a short break here, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is George Packer. He's a staff writer at The Atlantic, and we're talking about his new article, \"The Venture-Capital Populist: How David Sacks And The New Tech Right Went Full MAGA And Captured Washington.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, within the first six months, it was a very quick payback to the crypto industry for their support. He became their biggest champion. He said he was going to make the U.S. the crypto capital of"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5813505", "date": "2026-05-06", "guest": "George Packer", "title": "How Silicon Valley's new tech right has profited by aligning with MAGA", "question_index": 8, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with George Packer, a staff writer at The Atlantic. He writes about American politics, culture and U.S. foreign policy. His new article is about the Silicon Valley billionaires and their alliance with President Trump. It's titled \"The Venture-Capital Populist: How David Sacks And The New Tech Right Went Full MAGA And Captured Washington.\" Our interview was recorded yesterday. The first related thing that Trump did in office - related to AI or crypto - was to push through Congress a bill that would create a regulatory structure for crypto. And this was through the GENIUS Act. What did this do? Like, how did he tie a regulatory structure for crypto in a way that actually benefited crypto? 'Cause, you know, the venture capitalists don't want government regulation, but in this case, they wanted some regulation.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, within the first six months, it was a very quick payback to the crypto industry for their support. He became their biggest champion. He said he was going to make the U.S. the crypto capital of"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5813505", "date": "2026-05-06", "guest": "George Packer", "title": "How Silicon Valley's new tech right has profited by aligning with MAGA", "question_index": 9, "text": "Well, then the GENIUS Act is certainly a boon to the venture capitalists who are invested heavily in crypto companies.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. I think they wanted - and they said this over and over. They wanted certainty. They wanted to know where the lines were drawn on what was allowed, and they blamed Biden for failing to do that -"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5813505", "date": "2026-05-06", "guest": "George Packer", "title": "How Silicon Valley's new tech right has profited by aligning with MAGA", "question_index": 10, "text": "It's a safety net.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It is. That's..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5813505", "date": "2026-05-06", "guest": "George Packer", "title": "How Silicon Valley's new tech right has profited by aligning with MAGA", "question_index": 11, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Why they wanted it."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5813505", "date": "2026-05-06", "guest": "George Packer", "title": "How Silicon Valley's new tech right has profited by aligning with MAGA", "question_index": 12, "text": "Another advantage for venture capitalists invested in crypto companies, another advantage of tying crypto stablecoin to the American dollar, is that it makes it seem like investing in stablecoin is safe because it has some connection to the American dollar. And the more people who invest in stablecoin, the wealthier the venture capitalists invested in stablecoin become.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's why they wanted it. I have to say, it was a bipartisan bill. There were a lot of Democrats who voted for it as well. And then there were some Democrats who were vocal critics, like Senator Eliz"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5813505", "date": "2026-05-06", "guest": "George Packer", "title": "How Silicon Valley's new tech right has profited by aligning with MAGA", "question_index": 13, "text": "Well, we need to take another break here, so let me reintroduce you. My guest is George Packer, a staff writer at The Atlantic. We're talking about his new article, \"The Venture-Capital Populist: How David Sacks And The New Tech Right Went Full MAGA And Captured Washington.\" We'll be right back after a break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And Sacks, I think, said that one of the things the GENIUS Act would do is to make the dollar the global digital currency. In other words, if we're moving toward a worldwide digital currency sy"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5813505", "date": "2026-05-06", "guest": "George Packer", "title": "How Silicon Valley's new tech right has profited by aligning with MAGA", "question_index": 14, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with George Packer, a staff writer at The Atlantic. He writes about American politics, culture and U.S. foreign policy. His new article is about the Silicon Valley billionaires who are now often referred to as oligarchs because of their money, power and access to the White House. Packer looks at how and why this alliance between the venture capitalists and the right was formed in his piece titled \"The Venture-Capital Populist: How David Sacks And The New Tech Right Went Full MAGA And Captured Washington.\" Our interview was recorded yesterday. You describe the tech billionaires as almost a parody of crony capitalism, signaling the final union of America's interests with those of its wealthiest citizens - tech power fused with state power. Can you talk about that a little bit more?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And Sacks, I think, said that one of the things the GENIUS Act would do is to make the dollar the global digital currency. In other words, if we're moving toward a worldwide digital currency sy"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5813505", "date": "2026-05-06", "guest": "George Packer", "title": "How Silicon Valley's new tech right has profited by aligning with MAGA", "question_index": 15, "text": "Steve Bannon agrees with you", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, think of the lineup behind Trump at his second inaugural. All of the tech CEOs and others who were jockeying to be seated closest to Trump because closeness and proximity means power. Think of w"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5813505", "date": "2026-05-06", "guest": "George Packer", "title": "How Silicon Valley's new tech right has profited by aligning with MAGA", "question_index": 16, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, think of the lineup behind Trump at his second inaugural. All of the tech CEOs and others who were jockeying to be seated closest to Trump because closeness and proximity means power. Think of w"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5813505", "date": "2026-05-06", "guest": "George Packer", "title": "How Silicon Valley's new tech right has profited by aligning with MAGA", "question_index": 17, "text": "There's speculation that the left and right might unite against the venture capitalists.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. We had a nice chat, Steve Bannon and I, and he said some typically incendiary things, and one of them was that David Sacks - whom he is on record as really disliking, if not hating - has been th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5813505", "date": "2026-05-06", "guest": "George Packer", "title": "How Silicon Valley's new tech right has profited by aligning with MAGA", "question_index": 18, "text": "Well, we need to take a short break here. So let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is George Packer. He's a staff writer at The Atlantic. And we're talking about his new article, \"The Venture-Capital Populist: How David Sacks And The New Tech Right Went Full MAGA And Captured Washington.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, there were some bills in Congress, or some amendments, that were co-sponsored by a far-right MAGA senator, Jim Banks, and a far-left Democratic senator, Elizabeth Warren - not far left"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5813505", "date": "2026-05-06", "guest": "George Packer", "title": "How Silicon Valley's new tech right has profited by aligning with MAGA", "question_index": 19, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with George Packer, a staff writer at The Atlantic. He writes about American politics, culture and U.S. foreign policy. His new article is about the Silicon Valley billionaires and their alliance with President Trump. It's titled \"The Venture-Capital Populist: How David Sacks And The New Tech Right Went Full MAGA And Captured Washington.\" Our interview was recorded yesterday. So David Sacks made a very provocative statement about immigration. And do you want to describe what he said?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, there were some bills in Congress, or some amendments, that were co-sponsored by a far-right MAGA senator, Jim Banks, and a far-left Democratic senator, Elizabeth Warren - not far left"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5813505", "date": "2026-05-06", "guest": "George Packer", "title": "How Silicon Valley's new tech right has profited by aligning with MAGA", "question_index": 20, "text": "He blamed antifa, didn't he?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. This was on his podcast, and I listened to many, many, many hours of \"All-In\" because Sacks himself wouldn't speak to me, and so I thought the best way to find out who he is and what he thinks w"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5813505", "date": "2026-05-06", "guest": "George Packer", "title": "How Silicon Valley's new tech right has profited by aligning with MAGA", "question_index": 21, "text": "There have been periods when - and there's still special visas to come in if you are considered special or are considered somebody who would be an asset to, you know, medicine or science.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He said that this was antifa-style operations intended to prevent federal agents from carrying out the roundup of criminal aliens, which the public elected Trump to do. So for him, this was like a pol"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5813505", "date": "2026-05-06", "guest": "George Packer", "title": "How Silicon Valley's new tech right has profited by aligning with MAGA", "question_index": 22, "text": "You've confessed that crypto is not your thing. Like, you don't fully understand it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They're called H-1B visas. And there's a big argument at the beginning of the Trump second term over whether those should be continued. Elon Musk wanted them because they're important for his sector. "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5813505", "date": "2026-05-06", "guest": "George Packer", "title": "How Silicon Valley's new tech right has profited by aligning with MAGA", "question_index": 23, "text": "But you wanted to write about the tech venture capitalists who are invested in crypto and AI and their alignment with MAGA and President Trump. Why did you want to write about this alliance?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5813505", "date": "2026-05-06", "guest": "George Packer", "title": "How Silicon Valley's new tech right has profited by aligning with MAGA", "question_index": 24, "text": "One more thing. Thinking back to years ago during the war in Afghanistan, I think you wrote a lot about people who - from Afghanistan who were helping the U.S. troops as interpreters, as guides, as fellow reporters. And their lives were at stake, and a lot of them needed to get out. And they weren't always getting refugee status or weren't getting it swift enough to protect them in the U.S. Have you kept in touch with any of those people?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "'Cause it's important, Terry. It's hugely important. And even if I'm not the world's best expert, I do have a nose for politics and power and where power flows and where it's flowing in a way that jus"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5813505", "date": "2026-05-06", "guest": "George Packer", "title": "How Silicon Valley's new tech right has profited by aligning with MAGA", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well, that gives me a bit of a preview, and I'm really glad to hear it. George Packer, it's a pleasure to have you back on the show. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "For sure, Terry, with a number of them. And especially with one family who I've written about over and over again - husband and wife, Afghans, young Afghans in their 20s. She is a Hazara, which is a v"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5813505", "date": "2026-05-06", "guest": "George Packer", "title": "How Silicon Valley's new tech right has profited by aligning with MAGA", "question_index": 26, "text": "George Packer is a staff writer at The Atlantic. His new article is titled \"The New Venture-Capital Populist: How David Sacks And The New Tech Right Went Full MAGA And Captured Washington.\" Our interview was recorded yesterday. After we take a short break, David Bianculli will review the new TV adaptation of \"Lord Of The Flies.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks for having me, Terry."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5823574", "date": "2026-05-15", "guest": "Philip Caputo", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Philip Caputo", "question_index": 0, "text": "You've been in war zones as a Marine and as a journalist. Can you talk a little bit about the difference between being there as a fighter and being there as somebody just covering the fighting?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli. One of the most unflinching and acclaimed memoirs of the Vietnam War was about a young lieutenant, one of the first Americans to fight in the war, leading a Mar"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5823574", "date": "2026-05-15", "guest": "Philip Caputo", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Philip Caputo", "question_index": 1, "text": "Did you respect war correspondents when you were fighting in Vietnam, or did you see them as, like, guys with pens and cameras who were onlookers?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, probably the major difference is that the war correspondent can get out of there almost whenever he chooses, or she chooses. The soldier is stuck there, is under orders, and there's no return ti"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5823574", "date": "2026-05-15", "guest": "Philip Caputo", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Philip Caputo", "question_index": 2, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I was agnostic about them."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5823574", "date": "2026-05-15", "guest": "Philip Caputo", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Philip Caputo", "question_index": 3, "text": "You know, as we were saying, your new novel, \"Acts Of Faith,\" which is about aid workers and missionaries in Sudan, is in part about how idealistic motives can become really changed once you're in a foreign war, where you don't really understand the culture. And you wrote in your memoir about fighting in Vietnam, \"A Rumor Of War,\" war is always attractive to young men who know nothing about it, but we had also been seduced into uniform by Kennedy's challenge to ask what you can do for your country, and by the missionary idealism he had awakened in us. I guess I'm wondering if fighting in Vietnam made you skeptical of idealism.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I didn't particularly dislike them. I always remember feeling, and I think there were probably in four operations I was on, that there were journalists along, either TV or print journalists. I"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5823574", "date": "2026-05-15", "guest": "Philip Caputo", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Philip Caputo", "question_index": 4, "text": "You know, it's interesting. You managed to - as you pointed out in your writing, you managed to get through your tour of duty in Vietnam without any wounds. But then, as a journalist covering Beirut, you were shot several times in one episode. What happened to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes, it did. I'll just freely admit that - and like a lot of people my age - I was indelibly marked by that experience and by that era. Yes, I'm profoundly skeptical of idealism, profoundly skepti"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5823574", "date": "2026-05-15", "guest": "Philip Caputo", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Philip Caputo", "question_index": 5, "text": "You're a writer. You use your imagination all the time, and I'm sure during the war in Vietnam, you must have imagined what it would have been like to be shot or injured there. How did actually getting shot compare to what you'd always imagined it would feel like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it's one of those proverbial long stories that I will endeavor to make short. I was covering the Lebanese civil war. I was the Chicago Tribune's Middle East correspondent based in Beirut. I was "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5823574", "date": "2026-05-15", "guest": "Philip Caputo", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Philip Caputo", "question_index": 6, "text": "By then, were you in a medical setting?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it - I suppose I used to wonder like anybody who's been in there, will it hurt? Even if it is an instantly fatal wound, like, say, one to the brain. I remember I used to think sometimes in Vietn"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5823574", "date": "2026-05-15", "guest": "Philip Caputo", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Philip Caputo", "question_index": 7, "text": "You did some of your recovery back at your parents' house, the house you grew up in. And you've said that you wrote some of \"A Rumor Of War,\" your Vietnam memoir, in the bedroom that you grew up in. And when I read that, I thought, wow, that's so weird because, I mean, a lot of people I know feel or used to feel that if they went - that when they went back to the bedroom that they grew up in after they were an adult, they'd feel like a child again. You know, that - you see that same furniture, stuff that's still on the wall?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I was in a hospital bed."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5823574", "date": "2026-05-15", "guest": "Philip Caputo", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Philip Caputo", "question_index": 8, "text": "Your parents are there, and somehow, you know, you're kind of a kid again. But what was it like for you to be in that kind of setting at writing this, I mean, this really complicated memoir of war?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5823574", "date": "2026-05-15", "guest": "Philip Caputo", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Philip Caputo", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think, considering that I was then confined either to a wheelchair or to crutches, that I was almost naturally in a childlike situation. I mean, I had my wife and two kids with me, so we were "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5823574", "date": "2026-05-15", "guest": "Philip Caputo", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Philip Caputo", "question_index": 10, "text": "Some of your new novel, \"Acts Of Faith,\" is about extremism. And, you know, again, it's set in the civil war in Sudan, and the government in Khartoum is an extremist Islamist government. You've had firsthand experience with extremists. When you were covering Lebanon, you were captured for a week. Who captured you, and what did they do to you?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Journalist Philip Caputo talking with Terry Gross in 2005. He died last week at the age of 84. We'll hear more after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5823574", "date": "2026-05-15", "guest": "Philip Caputo", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Philip Caputo", "question_index": 11, "text": "So what did they do to you in the week that you were held hostage?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was captured by a faction of the Palestinian Liberation Organization that was called the PDFLP. They captured me because they thought that I was a CIA agent, which is a rather frequent accusation ma"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5823574", "date": "2026-05-15", "guest": "Philip Caputo", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Philip Caputo", "question_index": 12, "text": "Captive. Captive is the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I wasn't held hostage. They didn't - they weren't holding me for ransom or anything."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5823574", "date": "2026-05-15", "guest": "Philip Caputo", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Philip Caputo", "question_index": 13, "text": "Captive. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. It was..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5823574", "date": "2026-05-15", "guest": "Philip Caputo", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Philip Caputo", "question_index": 14, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. They interrogated me over and over and over again, often with questions that were ludicrous. They - I was subjected to mild physical and, at times, severe psychological torture - you know,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5823574", "date": "2026-05-15", "guest": "Philip Caputo", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Philip Caputo", "question_index": 15, "text": "So what were some of the things that went through your mind about what you should tell them? I mean, you told them the truth - that you weren't a CIA agent. But you did risk getting killed during this week. I'm sure that that was a real possibility. So did you think of, like, lying and making stuff up to give them or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then - or they stuffed me in a hole in the ground that - where rats were crawling around and things like that for 24 hours with no food, no water, no light, hardly any air, that sort of thing, all"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5823574", "date": "2026-05-15", "guest": "Philip Caputo", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Philip Caputo", "question_index": 16, "text": "You know, people talk about war as a crucible that will test you and shape you. Probably being in a hole in the ground, held captive, is a crucible, too. Do you feel like you were tested and learned things about yourself and even about, like, your threshold of pain when you were held captive for that week in Lebanon?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I sure did. And there were a couple of times I actually thought about telling them what I figured they wanted to hear 'cause I - you get the feeling that they're going to hold "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5823574", "date": "2026-05-15", "guest": "Philip Caputo", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Philip Caputo", "question_index": 17, "text": "So what are - if this isn't too personal, what are some of the things you feel you learned about yourself in the extreme and dangerous situations you were in, you know, as a journalist, as a Marine, as a captive?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, certainly. When you've had experiences like that and then you encounter the more or less ordinary stresses of life, even what one could consider, say, extreme stresses - I don't know - like, say, "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5823574", "date": "2026-05-15", "guest": "Philip Caputo", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Philip Caputo", "question_index": 18, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I think, you know, let's say on the flattering side."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5823574", "date": "2026-05-15", "guest": "Philip Caputo", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Philip Caputo", "question_index": 19, "text": "You know, since your Vietnam memoir, \"A Rumor Of War,\" was such an important book about the war, I'm just wondering what you made of the whole debate about John Kerry's service in Vietnam during the election and how divided the country still seemed to be about the meaning of that war and the justness of that war.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "On the flattering side, I certainly learned that I was tougher than I thought, not in the sense of a, you know, chest-thumping macho tough guy, but I meant that I could endure and keep my head under e"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5823574", "date": "2026-05-15", "guest": "Philip Caputo", "title": "Remembering Pulitzer Prize-winning journalist Philip Caputo", "question_index": 20, "text": "Philip Caputo, thank you very much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The Vietnam War and the 1960s will not be over until, oh, I'll predict, let's say 2040. That is roughly when the last baby boomer will die. And I just think that the divisions that were aroused during"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5823575", "date": "2026-05-15", "guest": "David Attenborough", "title": "Celebrating acclaimed nature documentarian David Attenborough at 100", "question_index": 0, "text": "When you're a cameraman looking for animals to display - a bird to display its feathers or whatever, are you sitting there with the camera waiting and waiting, having it poised, ready to be turned on?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm TV critic David Bianculli. Sir David Attenborough - the globally famous host, narrator and creator of nature films - marked his 100th birthday last week. His celebrated and popu"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5823575", "date": "2026-05-15", "guest": "David Attenborough", "title": "Celebrating acclaimed nature documentarian David Attenborough at 100", "question_index": 1, "text": "Have any of your camera people ever gotten hurt or attacked by one of the animals who they'd come to shoot?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5823575", "date": "2026-05-15", "guest": "David Attenborough", "title": "Celebrating acclaimed nature documentarian David Attenborough at 100", "question_index": 2, "text": "Are you good at that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5823575", "date": "2026-05-15", "guest": "David Attenborough", "title": "Celebrating acclaimed nature documentarian David Attenborough at 100", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I have no idea whether I'm good. All I know is that when the rhinoceros charges, you find yourself 12 foot up a tree that has no branches beneath you..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5823575", "date": "2026-05-15", "guest": "David Attenborough", "title": "Celebrating acclaimed nature documentarian David Attenborough at 100", "question_index": 4, "text": "Just curious, how close can you get to an elephant before he charges?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". But actually, again - that, again, is a sort of - the wrong kind of boast. If you're a good enough naturalist, you should know how close you can get to an elephant before it charges. You should be a"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5823575", "date": "2026-05-15", "guest": "David Attenborough", "title": "Celebrating acclaimed nature documentarian David Attenborough at 100", "question_index": 5, "text": "On the wind?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You can get - it depends on the wind."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5823575", "date": "2026-05-15", "guest": "David Attenborough", "title": "Celebrating acclaimed nature documentarian David Attenborough at 100", "question_index": 6, "text": "Yeah. What does the wind have to do with it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I don't mean the elephant's wind. I mean..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5823575", "date": "2026-05-15", "guest": "David Attenborough", "title": "Celebrating acclaimed nature documentarian David Attenborough at 100", "question_index": 7, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, because of your smell."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5823575", "date": "2026-05-15", "guest": "David Attenborough", "title": "Celebrating acclaimed nature documentarian David Attenborough at 100", "question_index": 8, "text": "So the elephant's not really paying attention to seeing you or smelling you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, if the wind suddenly - what you do if you want to get close to elephants - which isn't a particular ambition of mine. I've spent a certain amount of time close to them. You get one of your sil"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5823575", "date": "2026-05-15", "guest": "David Attenborough", "title": "Celebrating acclaimed nature documentarian David Attenborough at 100", "question_index": 9, "text": "You've been making naturalist movies for over 30 years. Film technology has changed a lot during that time. Is what you're able to show us different because of how the technology has changed?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It doesn't like human - the smell of human beings. Its eyesight is not all that good. It has very small eyes. And, of course, one on either side of its head, as it were, so it's viewing from the side "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5823575", "date": "2026-05-15", "guest": "David Attenborough", "title": "Celebrating acclaimed nature documentarian David Attenborough at 100", "question_index": 10, "text": "Sex and violence is such a big issue in television programming. How much of sex - parentheses, mating - or violence - parentheses, one animal killing another for its food - do you think it's proper to show for a documentary series on television?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's changed beyond recognition. The first films I made back in 1952 in Africa - where you had a clockwork camera. I mean, you had to wind it up, and it only ran for about, I think, 40 seconds or some"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5823575", "date": "2026-05-15", "guest": "David Attenborough", "title": "Celebrating acclaimed nature documentarian David Attenborough at 100", "question_index": 11, "text": "Did you grow up in the city?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 1985 interview with David Attenborough. Last week, he celebrated his 100th birthday."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5823575", "date": "2026-05-15", "guest": "David Attenborough", "title": "Celebrating acclaimed nature documentarian David Attenborough at 100", "question_index": 12, "text": "Yeah, 'cause I was kind of wondering how you became as comfortable with different physical environments, 'cause I think a lot of people who grew up in the city adapt less easily to exotic locations and climates.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I - in a town, yeah. Well, it was a city, yes - but one that I could get to the country fairly easily on a bicycle."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5823575", "date": "2026-05-15", "guest": "David Attenborough", "title": "Celebrating acclaimed nature documentarian David Attenborough at 100", "question_index": 13, "text": "When did you decide that you weren't going to live the academic life and write textbooks, but instead, you were going to write popular books and make movies that a popular audience could appreciate?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm not sure that's true, actually. I think a lot of us who grew up in cities developed a great hunger for these kind of places and a sufficient hunger to kind of quell the uncomfortableness of - invo"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5823575", "date": "2026-05-15", "guest": "David Attenborough", "title": "Celebrating acclaimed nature documentarian David Attenborough at 100", "question_index": 14, "text": "Did they reach an audience right away?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in - when I was an undergraduate studying zoology, it sounds amazing now to say this, but it is true - and this was in Cambridge in 1944, '45. The kind of zoology that we learnt was a zoology wh"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5823575", "date": "2026-05-15", "guest": "David Attenborough", "title": "Celebrating acclaimed nature documentarian David Attenborough at 100", "question_index": 15, "text": "You think it's the beauty of it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes, animal films have always had a huge audience - in Britain, at any rate - and I suspect here. I really think that people - and I'm with them - think that there are few things more beautiful t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5823575", "date": "2026-05-15", "guest": "David Attenborough", "title": "Celebrating acclaimed nature documentarian David Attenborough at 100", "question_index": 16, "text": "Do you ever find yourself, though, doing the equivalent of only looking to photograph pretty people, you know, like looking to photograph animals who are especially photogenic or landscapes that are especially dramatic or beautiful?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I think it's all those things - the beauty, the drama, the fascination, the unexpectedness, the uninhibitedness, the truth in a curious way. I mean, animals don't lie in - to suit the camera, as i"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5823575", "date": "2026-05-15", "guest": "David Attenborough", "title": "Celebrating acclaimed nature documentarian David Attenborough at 100", "question_index": 17, "text": "It's the equivalent of having an infant, of...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That, in fact, is one of the reasons why I determined to do those two series - \"Life On Earth\" and \"The Living Planet\" - because there's a great temptation, as you say, to do the pretty ones all the t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5823575", "date": "2026-05-15", "guest": "David Attenborough", "title": "Celebrating acclaimed nature documentarian David Attenborough at 100", "question_index": 18, "text": "Did you keep that as the first show?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right. If you make - want to make an unpopular program, you put a snake in it. Now, if you are - but if you - on the other hand, you say, I wish to survey the animal kingdom, you have to do pro"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5823575", "date": "2026-05-15", "guest": "David Attenborough", "title": "Celebrating acclaimed nature documentarian David Attenborough at 100", "question_index": 19, "text": "And did it work? Did you get the rights?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5823575", "date": "2026-05-15", "guest": "David Attenborough", "title": "Celebrating acclaimed nature documentarian David Attenborough at 100", "question_index": 20, "text": "Is there a desired response you'd like viewers to have to your programs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, it did, fortunately."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5828414", "date": "2026-05-20", "guest": "Andrew Weissmann", "title": "The Justice Department gives Trump an unprecedented settlement", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Why can't you sue a president or a presidential candidate who knowingly lies to the public? After all, corporate executives can be sued for lying to shareholders. This question about our inability to legally hold politicians accountable for their speech, the threats that poses to our democracy and what we can learn from how other countries deal with these lies are the subjects of my guest Andrew Weissmann's new book \"Liar's Kingdom: How To Stop Trump's Deceit And Save America.\" During Trump's first term, The Washington Post tabulated over 30,000 false or misleading Trump public statements. Andrew Weissmann was a lead prosecutor in the Mueller investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 election and whether the Russians colluded with candidate Donald Trump and his campaign. Weissmann also served as chief of the fraud section in the Justice Department and general counsel of the FBI when Robert Mueller was the FBI director. Weissman was a leader of the Enron Task Force, which successfully prosecuted Enron executives for knowingly lying to shareholders by inflating Enron's profits. Earlier in his career, while working in the Eastern District of New York, he prosecuted three of the five most powerful crime families in New York. He's now an MS NOW legal analyst and co-host of the podcast \"Main Justice.\" He's also a professor at the NYU Law School. We're going to begin the interview with the settlement Trump reached with the Justice Department over his lawsuit against the IRS pertaining to the leak of his tax filings. The details of that settlement and the new fund it created were made public this week. The judge in that case, who was considering dismissing the case, was not included in the discussions of the settlement. Andrew Weissmann, welcome to FRESH AIR. So let's talk about the IRS case. So Trump had sued the IRS for $10 billion. This was because his tax filings were leaked to The New York Times and ProPublica, not by the IRS directly. They were leaked by an employee of a contractor that the IRS had hired. And Trump claimed the IRS hadn't taken enough precautions to prevent that leak. So the judge was concerned that since the IRS was being represented by the Justice Department and Trump himself oversees the IRS 'cause it's part of the executive branch - the judge wasn't sure that there were two sides in this case. Would you explain why?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5828414", "date": "2026-05-20", "guest": "Andrew Weissmann", "title": "The Justice Department gives Trump an unprecedented settlement", "question_index": 1, "text": "So do you think this is unprecedented, a president suing the IRS and his opponent being, like, the acting attorney general in this case, who was - I mean, he's a Trump appointee, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Well, Donald Trump himself had said that, isn't this odd because I'm suing myself. And that actually got it right. And under the law, in order for there to be a legal case, there has to be what'"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5828414", "date": "2026-05-20", "guest": "Andrew Weissmann", "title": "The Justice Department gives Trump an unprecedented settlement", "question_index": 2, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's a Trump appointee, and he was his defense lawyer and something that people..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5828414", "date": "2026-05-20", "guest": "Andrew Weissmann", "title": "The Justice Department gives Trump an unprecedented settlement", "question_index": 3, "text": "His personal defense lawyer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Don't realize."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5828414", "date": "2026-05-20", "guest": "Andrew Weissmann", "title": "The Justice Department gives Trump an unprecedented settlement", "question_index": 4, "text": "Yeah. And when she says, like, who's representing the public, we, the public, through our taxes, are paying for this agreement.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And one thing, having - I'm a lawyer. I've been a defense lawyer. One of the things that when you represent somebody, even when that representation is over, you have a continuing duty of loyalty."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5828414", "date": "2026-05-20", "guest": "Andrew Weissmann", "title": "The Justice Department gives Trump an unprecedented settlement", "question_index": 5, "text": "But isn't it really going to him? It's going to this fund, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. So one of the things, Terry, I am keeping my eye out for is - and I've talked to various tax consultants, and sort of their assessment - is this normally would be a $1.8 billion recording "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5828414", "date": "2026-05-20", "guest": "Andrew Weissmann", "title": "The Justice Department gives Trump an unprecedented settlement", "question_index": 6, "text": "And it's a huge amount of money. And the whole lawsuit might have just been thrown out because the judge asked both sides to write briefs explaining if they thought there were really two sides in this case, because if there weren't two sides, she would dismiss the case. And those briefs were due today. So the settlement was made before those briefs were submitted and before we knew if there was even a case or if the judge was just going to throw it out.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, but that's secondary. In other words, this is Donald Trump saying, I am settling my claim against the tax authorities. And then the fact that he chooses to spend it by saying, OK, I'm directing "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5828414", "date": "2026-05-20", "guest": "Andrew Weissmann", "title": "The Justice Department gives Trump an unprecedented settlement", "question_index": 7, "text": "But meanwhile, Trump will be making money on this deal because Trump, his family and their businesses will have immunity from ever paying any taxes ever, ever, forever, related to current ongoing investigations into their taxes. And I've seen estimates as much as $100 million in savings from that. Now, no one knows exactly how much it would be, but it might be as high as that. So they're saving a lot of money on this deal in taxes, in addition to everything else.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To make matters worse, Terry, one of the briefs that an amicus wrote, this sort of friend of the court brief, was from former tax authorities saying that what the IRS is doing with comparable cases is"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5828414", "date": "2026-05-20", "guest": "Andrew Weissmann", "title": "The Justice Department gives Trump an unprecedented settlement", "question_index": 8, "text": "So let's talk about the fund. What is the official purpose of the fund and who is supposed to be eligible?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. That is the piece that broke, that, you know, was not in the main story and it came out. This one piece of paper that can be termed a general release, giving up the government's claims to money f"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5828414", "date": "2026-05-20", "guest": "Andrew Weissmann", "title": "The Justice Department gives Trump an unprecedented settlement", "question_index": 9, "text": "Appointed by the acting attorney general, in this case.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So the fund will be this $1.776 billion, absent Congress or some other authority being able to put a stop to this. But assuming it goes forward, this money will be used by a commission set up by the a"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5828414", "date": "2026-05-20", "guest": "Andrew Weissmann", "title": "The Justice Department gives Trump an unprecedented settlement", "question_index": 10, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5828414", "date": "2026-05-20", "guest": "Andrew Weissmann", "title": "The Justice Department gives Trump an unprecedented settlement", "question_index": 11, "text": "Yeah. And in order to qualify for this fund, you're supposed to be a victim of government weaponization - so you faced reprisals for personal, political or ideological reasons. So, you know, there's a lot of assumptions that the people who'll get compensated will be people who are friends of Trump, supporters of Trump, MAGA people. But the recipients are going to be kept secret. We're not going to know who they are unless it's leaked. It's going to be...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so they're very, very beholden to the wishes of the president and the acting attorney general, and they will adjudicate and decide who is going to get this money. And so that is an area where ever"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5828414", "date": "2026-05-20", "guest": "Andrew Weissmann", "title": "The Justice Department gives Trump an unprecedented settlement", "question_index": 12, "text": "Yeah. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5828414", "date": "2026-05-20", "guest": "Andrew Weissmann", "title": "The Justice Department gives Trump an unprecedented settlement", "question_index": 13, "text": "Do you think you will apply just as a kind of test case and - just to see for yourself what the process...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's one where I would say we don't - we know that in the papers so far, there is no provision for this being public. Now, it could end up being that the people who are in charge of this decide that"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5828414", "date": "2026-05-20", "guest": "Andrew Weissmann", "title": "The Justice Department gives Trump an unprecedented settlement", "question_index": 14, "text": "...Is like for compensation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5828414", "date": "2026-05-20", "guest": "Andrew Weissmann", "title": "The Justice Department gives Trump an unprecedented settlement", "question_index": 15, "text": "My guest is Andrew Weissmann. He was a lead prosecutor in the Mueller investigation after having held leadership positions in the Justice Department and the FBI. His new book is called \"Liar's Kingdom.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that if no one else does, I think it's very important for people to test this. And if it's not being done by anyone else, I will do it because I think that is - there are many, many ways that "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5828414", "date": "2026-05-20", "guest": "Andrew Weissmann", "title": "The Justice Department gives Trump an unprecedented settlement", "question_index": 16, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Andrew Weissmann. He was a lead prosecutor in the Mueller investigation and served as chief of the fraud section in the Justice Department. His new book \"Liar's Kingdom\" is about why it's time to hold politicians legally accountable when they knowingly lied to the public. When we left off, we were talking about Trump's settlement with the Justice Department over Trump's lawsuit against the IRS. So you raised the question of, like, will January 6 insurrectionists, including those who attacked the police and defaced the building and threatened everybody in it, will they now, in addition to being pardoned, also make claims from this fund and actually get compensated? So Chris Van Hollen, Democratic senator from Maryland, asked that question to Todd Blanche, the acting attorney general, yesterday at a previously scheduled hearing about the Justice Department's 2027 budget. So I want to play an excerpt of that. So here's Chris Van Hollen questioning Todd Blanche.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that if no one else does, I think it's very important for people to test this. And if it's not being done by anyone else, I will do it because I think that is - there are many, many ways that "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5828414", "date": "2026-05-20", "guest": "Andrew Weissmann", "title": "The Justice Department gives Trump an unprecedented settlement", "question_index": 17, "text": "Andrew Weissmann, what's your reaction to that exchange?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...There was a judge who looked at it and signed off on it, so to compare that case to this one is incredibly deceptive."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5828414", "date": "2026-05-20", "guest": "Andrew Weissmann", "title": "The Justice Department gives Trump an unprecedented settlement", "question_index": 18, "text": "Is it fair to say that the head of the Justice Department did an end run around the judicial system, around the court?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So one of the things that I found disingenuous is that Todd Blanche, as the acting attorney general, has the authority to have created rules that said that if you are a convicted felon, if you have as"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5828414", "date": "2026-05-20", "guest": "Andrew Weissmann", "title": "The Justice Department gives Trump an unprecedented settlement", "question_index": 19, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. My guest is Andrew Weissmann, and he was a lead prosecutor on the Muller investigation and his new book is called \"Liar's Kingdom.\" So we'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that is - that it's fair. I think I would broaden that to say he did an end run around his oath of office to all of us to represent our interest. And that's why there have been so many reports"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5828414", "date": "2026-05-20", "guest": "Andrew Weissmann", "title": "The Justice Department gives Trump an unprecedented settlement", "question_index": 20, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Andrew Weissmann. His new book, \"Liar's Kingdom,\" asks why politicians aren't held legally responsible when they knowingly mislead or lie to the electorate. And he looks to other countries who do have such laws. Weissmann was a lead prosecutor in the Mueller investigation, served as chief of the fraud section in the Justice Department and general counsel of the FBI when Robert Mueller was the FBI director. He's now an MS NOW legal analyst, host of the podcast \"Main Justice\" and a professor at the NYU Law School. You mentioned that you were the subject of two of President Trump's executive orders. Can you tell us about those executive orders?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that is - that it's fair. I think I would broaden that to say he did an end run around his oath of office to all of us to represent our interest. And that's why there have been so many reports"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5828414", "date": "2026-05-20", "guest": "Andrew Weissmann", "title": "The Justice Department gives Trump an unprecedented settlement", "question_index": 21, "text": "Wait, wait, you didn't even have a security clearance anymore.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, let's see. The first one, I was in extremely good company, Terry. I was in the company of, I think, Joe Biden, Kamala Harris, Hillary Clinton and many others. I tell an anecdote in my book that "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5828414", "date": "2026-05-20", "guest": "Andrew Weissmann", "title": "The Justice Department gives Trump an unprecedented settlement", "question_index": 22, "text": "Or uninformed.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's true. That is - not only did they get my name wrong, but I had been out of government. So it's one thing to strip somebody of a security clearance when they're in government. But I was working as"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5828414", "date": "2026-05-20", "guest": "Andrew Weissmann", "title": "The Justice Department gives Trump an unprecedented settlement", "question_index": 23, "text": "Yeah. And the law firms that made an agreement with the Trump administration agreed to, like, many hours and millions of dollars of time spent doing pro bono work on behalf of the Trump administration.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. I think both of those could be true. The second one was more serious, and it is actually the subject of ongoing litigation. It was one of the many executive orders that in Trump's 2.0 term in off"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5828414", "date": "2026-05-20", "guest": "Andrew Weissmann", "title": "The Justice Department gives Trump an unprecedented settlement", "question_index": 24, "text": "OK, let's get to your book, \"Liar's Kingdom.\" So you compare the ability to sue, say, corporate executives for false, misleading statements, for knowing lies to political candidates and people in office who - there's no laws to protect us from them when they knowingly lie to us, and there's so much at stake when they do lie to us. So why are politicians and those serving in office exempt from that kind of law?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, almost a billion dollars collectively. But there's also sort of a hidden process to this, which is beyond those law firms, there's been a chilling effect on major law firms doing pro bono work wh"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5828414", "date": "2026-05-20", "guest": "Andrew Weissmann", "title": "The Justice Department gives Trump an unprecedented settlement", "question_index": 25, "text": "You say that Trump knew the difference between lies and falsehoods because he said things in public that he didn't say under oath to Congress. So can you talk about that a little bit, about the difference between what you can say to Congress and what you can say to the electorate and why you think Trump really understood that difference?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That is exactly the question that drove why I wrote this book. I was dealing with the issue of what I think is sort of rampant lying by politicians and candidates. I looked at Enron leaders that you'v"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5828414", "date": "2026-05-20", "guest": "Andrew Weissmann", "title": "The Justice Department gives Trump an unprecedented settlement", "question_index": 26, "text": "So I imagine part of the fear of holding political candidates and those in office liable for false or misleading statements knowingly made to the public is the idea of infringing on those people's - you know, on the politicians and office holders' First Amendment rights to free speech. But free speech has limitations when there's victims of that speech. So is that the reason why we don't have anything holding those politicians accountable?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I think a best example of that might be the first impeachment, the one where the so-called perfect call between the then- and current president of Ukraine, Zelenskyy, and the president of the Unite"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5828414", "date": "2026-05-20", "guest": "Andrew Weissmann", "title": "The Justice Department gives Trump an unprecedented settlement", "question_index": 27, "text": "Would the electorate have standing in any kind of lawsuit?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do think that is a big part of it. But it is complicated because the state of the law is that there is no First Amendment protection for false speech itself. In other words, there's many cases from "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5828414", "date": "2026-05-20", "guest": "Andrew Weissmann", "title": "The Justice Department gives Trump an unprecedented settlement", "question_index": 28, "text": "Let's take a short break here. My guest is Andrew Weissmann. He was a lead prosecutor in the Mueller investigation. His new book is called \"Liar's Kingdom.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That is a great question. I sort of make this point of an oddity in the law, which is if you are Rudy Giuliani and you say, this is what Ruby Freeman and Shaye Moss did, you've identified those people"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5828414", "date": "2026-05-20", "guest": "Andrew Weissmann", "title": "The Justice Department gives Trump an unprecedented settlement", "question_index": 29, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Andrew Weissmann. His new book, \"Liar's Kingdom,\" asks why politicians aren't held legally responsible when they knowingly mislead or lie to the electorate, and he looks to other countries who do have such laws. Weissmann was a lead prosecutor in the Mueller investigation. So let's look at Brazil. It's one of the countries that you look at that has a law that seems to be working that punishes politicians and those in office who knowingly lie to the public. Tell us about this law and how it's been used.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That is a great question. I sort of make this point of an oddity in the law, which is if you are Rudy Giuliani and you say, this is what Ruby Freeman and Shaye Moss did, you've identified those people"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5828414", "date": "2026-05-20", "guest": "Andrew Weissmann", "title": "The Justice Department gives Trump an unprecedented settlement", "question_index": 30, "text": "So as you pointed out, what Bolsonaro was charged with criminally was participating and, I think, helping to incite - am I right about that? - an insurrection.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. Well, one of the things that was fascinating for me was looking at Bolsonaro, who was the then-president of Brazil, and the remarkable, remarkable similarities between his political career and t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5828414", "date": "2026-05-20", "guest": "Andrew Weissmann", "title": "The Justice Department gives Trump an unprecedented settlement", "question_index": 31, "text": "Yeah. And so very similar to what many people think Trump has done regarding January 6. And Trump's reaction to the prosecution and imprisonment of Bolsonaro - 'cause he's serving a 27-year sentence for the insurrection - Trump issued a 50% tariff on Brazil and personal sanctions against the judges involved in that case. How do you, if you're the president of another country, personally sanction judges in Brazil?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5828414", "date": "2026-05-20", "guest": "Andrew Weissmann", "title": "The Justice Department gives Trump an unprecedented settlement", "question_index": 32, "text": "So what would you like to see the U.S. borrow from Brazil's law? What lesson can we learn?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, he has made - our president has made similar claims with respect to Bibi Netanyahu, saying it's a disgrace that he is on trial. And I could understand an American president and other preside"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5828414", "date": "2026-05-20", "guest": "Andrew Weissmann", "title": "The Justice Department gives Trump an unprecedented settlement", "question_index": 33, "text": "Let's take a short break here. My guest is Andrew Weissmann. He was a lead prosecutor in the Mueller investigation. His new book is called \"Liar's Kingdom.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I think there are a number of them. But I think one is very, very big-picture, which is understanding that as wonderful as the Constitution is, we see the flaws and how there are no structural chec"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5828414", "date": "2026-05-20", "guest": "Andrew Weissmann", "title": "The Justice Department gives Trump an unprecedented settlement", "question_index": 34, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Andrew Weissmann. He was a lead prosecutor in the Mueller investigation. He also served as chief of the fraud section in the Justice Department and general counsel of the FBI when Robert Mueller was the FBI director. His new book is called \"Liar's Kingdom.\" What are your concerns about FBI Director Kash Patel? The Atlantic had a big investigative piece saying that he's been known to be drinking - there are times that he couldn't be found, times that it was hard to wake him. What are your concerns about his ability and his commitment to the job?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I think there are a number of them. But I think one is very, very big-picture, which is understanding that as wonderful as the Constitution is, we see the flaws and how there are no structural chec"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5828414", "date": "2026-05-20", "guest": "Andrew Weissmann", "title": "The Justice Department gives Trump an unprecedented settlement", "question_index": 35, "text": "Patel has reportedly been polygraphing FBI agents to see who leaked to The Atlantic. Is there any precedent for that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So he has denied that, and he has sued The Atlantic. And I know this is easy for me to say, but I actually would love to see The Atlantic ask for an immediate trial so that the public can hear the tru"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5828414", "date": "2026-05-20", "guest": "Andrew Weissmann", "title": "The Justice Department gives Trump an unprecedented settlement", "question_index": 36, "text": "What are your concerns about if there's an authoritarian president and if Congress is going with an authoritarian president's wishes, and a lot of the courts, as well as a majority of the Supreme Court, seem to often take a cue from the authoritarian president or at least seem to agree with the authoritarian president - how the laws you suggested could still be abused?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm not aware of any polygraphing. And doing an investigation would be appropriate - and I'm enough of a sort of former government lawyer - if we were talking about the revelation of classified inform"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5828414", "date": "2026-05-20", "guest": "Andrew Weissmann", "title": "The Justice Department gives Trump an unprecedented settlement", "question_index": 37, "text": "Andrew Weissmann, thank you so much for talking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There is the potential for abuse. And there's no doubt that if there is some weapon lying about, like a Chekov gun, that Donald Trump or people like him will be tempted to use it. We are witnessing, i"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5828414", "date": "2026-05-20", "guest": "Andrew Weissmann", "title": "The Justice Department gives Trump an unprecedented settlement", "question_index": 38, "text": "Andrew Weissmann's new book is called \"Liar's Kingdom.\" He's now an MS NOW legal analyst, co-host of the podcast \"Main Justice\" and a professor at the NYU Law School. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be actor Rose Byrne. She's nominated for a Tony for her leading role in the revival of Noel Coward's \"Fallen Angels.\" She was nominated for an Oscar for her role in the film \"If I Had Legs I'd Kick You.\" She co-starred in the films \"Bridesmaids,\" \"Spy\" and \"Neighbors\" and in the TV shows \"Platonic\" and Damages. I hope you'll join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram - @nprfreshair. (", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5828414", "date": "2026-05-20", "guest": "Andrew Weissmann", "title": "The Justice Department gives Trump an unprecedented settlement", "question_index": 39, "text": "))", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5828414", "date": "2026-05-20", "guest": "Andrew Weissmann", "title": "The Justice Department gives Trump an unprecedented settlement", "question_index": 40, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Sam Briger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez-Wisler. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross. (", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5828414", "date": "2026-05-20", "guest": "Andrew Weissmann", "title": "The Justice Department gives Trump an unprecedented settlement", "question_index": 41, "text": ")", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you so much for having me."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5835275", "date": "2026-05-27", "guest": "Ben Rhodes", "title": "Former Obama adviser reflects on the 'Battle for American Identity'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. One year and four months after Donald Trump began his first term as president, he withdrew the U.S. from the nuclear agreement with Iran that was negotiated during the Obama administration. Trump had repeatedly called it the worst deal ever. My guest Ben Rhodes was part of the team involved with the Obama administration negotiations. He was an Obama speechwriter and deputy national security adviser. Through that deal, Iran agreed to have all its nuclear-grade uranium removed from the country, but it was allowed to keep uranium enriched just enough to be used for medical purposes. Now Trump has led us into war with Iran and has been trying - so far, unsuccessfully - to negotiate a deal that seems very similar to the one he withdrew from. Trump might be leading us into more military action, this time in Cuba. The Obama administration had negotiated an agreement with Cuba to begin normalizing relations and open the doors to travel and trade between the two countries. Ben Rhodes was the lead negotiator with Cuba. In Trump's first year in office, he said, effective immediately, I am canceling the last administration's completely one-sided deal with Cuba. Now President Trump is increasing the pressure campaign against Cuba. Ben Rhodes is now an opinion writer for The New York Times, an analyst for MS NOW and co-host of the podcast \"Pod Save The World.\" His new book, \"All We Say,\" is about the battle for American identity, what it means to be American and who gets to define it. The book collects 15 important speeches on the subject from Ben Franklin through Donald Trump. Ben Rhodes, welcome to FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5835275", "date": "2026-05-27", "guest": "Ben Rhodes", "title": "Former Obama adviser reflects on the 'Battle for American Identity'", "question_index": 1, "text": "Great to have you on the show. As we record this Tuesday morning, what's your understanding of what's been agreed to and what might be on the verge of being agreed to in these negotiations with Iran?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Terry, it's really great to be with you."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5835275", "date": "2026-05-27", "guest": "Ben Rhodes", "title": "Former Obama adviser reflects on the 'Battle for American Identity'", "question_index": 2, "text": "On Monday, during negotiations to end the war in Iran, the U.S. bombed missile launch sites and boats that were positioning mines in the Strait of Hormuz - Iranian boats. And so CENTCOM said that to protect our troops from threats posed by Iranian forces, we, in retaliation, bombed Iran missile sites and I think the boats as well, the boats that were placing mines. What's your understanding of this? And I wonder, too - the U.S. bombed Iran twice during previous negotiations. Do you consider this similar to those two times?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when we negotiated with Iran, there was a saying that we had, which is nothing is agreed to until everything is agreed to. And so at this point, it doesn't feel like they've reached any kind of "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5835275", "date": "2026-05-27", "guest": "Ben Rhodes", "title": "Former Obama adviser reflects on the 'Battle for American Identity'", "question_index": 3, "text": "The closing of the Strait of Hormuz has turned the war into an international financial crisis because certain essential products can't get through, including, most importantly, oil. And oil reserves are running low in much of the world that relies on the Strait of Hormuz to get the oil. In the Obama administration war games, was Iran shutting off access to the Strait of Hormuz one of the tactics that was expected? 'Cause the administration was doing war games before the nuclear deal and trying to figure out what would Iran's actions be if we bombed Iran instead of getting a deal. I mean, do I have all that right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes and no. I mean, it's similar in that in the midst of negotiations, they're obviously hitting Iranian territory in addition to Iranian military hardware. What's different is that the previous bombi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5835275", "date": "2026-05-27", "guest": "Ben Rhodes", "title": "Former Obama adviser reflects on the 'Battle for American Identity'", "question_index": 4, "text": "What was your role during the nuclear agreement with Iran?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, in a word. I was in multiple war games, and a war game is essentially where you play out different scenarios of what might happen if you literally go to war. I was never in a war game about a sce"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5835275", "date": "2026-05-27", "guest": "Ben Rhodes", "title": "Former Obama adviser reflects on the 'Battle for American Identity'", "question_index": 5, "text": "The agreement that you did reach - you being the Obama administration - it was a joint agreement. There were other countries, our allies, who signed on to this, as well as - did Russia sign on to that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was deputy national security adviser at the time. And I would say the Iran nuclear agreement was my main area of focus, actually, together with the Cuban normalization. So I have the strange, "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5835275", "date": "2026-05-27", "guest": "Ben Rhodes", "title": "Former Obama adviser reflects on the 'Battle for American Identity'", "question_index": 6, "text": "And also, with all those countries signing on, ally and adversary, there's more power - isn't there? - in the treaty than a unilateral one. I use the word treaty. It's an agreement.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. This is a really important point, Terry. It was the permanent five members of the U.N. Security Council - so the United States, Britain and France, but also Russia and China - as well as Germany "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5835275", "date": "2026-05-27", "guest": "Ben Rhodes", "title": "Former Obama adviser reflects on the 'Battle for American Identity'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Yeah, how do you think the world would be different if President Trump hadn't pulled out of the nuclear deal with Iran?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, that's right. But to your point, it also had the backing of a U.N. Security Council resolution. So it had standing under international law, which meant that if the Iranians violated the agreemen"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5835275", "date": "2026-05-27", "guest": "Ben Rhodes", "title": "Former Obama adviser reflects on the 'Battle for American Identity'", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, we need to take a break here, so let me reintroduce you. My guest is Ben Rhodes. During the Obama administration, he worked in the White House as a speech writer for the president and became Obama's deputy national security adviser after that. He's now a contributing opinion writer for The New York Times, an analyst for MS NOW and co-host of \"Pod Save The World.\" His new book, \"All We Say,\" is about the battle over American identity and what it means to be an American as told through 15 speeches from Ben Franklin to Trump. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the headline is that we would not be in this war with all of its costs in terms of loss of life, in terms of economic damage, in terms of what I think is going to be hundreds of billions of doll"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5835275", "date": "2026-05-27", "guest": "Ben Rhodes", "title": "Former Obama adviser reflects on the 'Battle for American Identity'", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Ben Rhodes. During the Obama administration, he worked in the White House as a speech writer for the president and became Obama's deputy national security adviser. His new book, \"All We Say,\" is about the battle over American identity and what it means to be American through 15 speeches from Ben Franklin to Donald Trump. Some critics think that Trump was persuaded to go to war with Iran because Netanyahu - Benjamin Netanyahu, the prime minister of Israel - pressured Trump into doing it. And I'm wondering if the Obama administration was pressured by Netanyahu to bomb Iran.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the headline is that we would not be in this war with all of its costs in terms of loss of life, in terms of economic damage, in terms of what I think is going to be hundreds of billions of doll"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5835275", "date": "2026-05-27", "guest": "Ben Rhodes", "title": "Former Obama adviser reflects on the 'Battle for American Identity'", "question_index": 10, "text": "I'm forgetting when the nuclear deal signed under the Obama administration was supposed to end 'cause it was a finite number of years. Was it 10 years?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, we were. We probably got a version of the same presentation that, according to The New York Times, Prime Minister Netanyahu gave to President Trump in the Situation Room, which, first of all, is "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5835275", "date": "2026-05-27", "guest": "Ben Rhodes", "title": "Former Obama adviser reflects on the 'Battle for American Identity'", "question_index": 11, "text": "And now we're at war.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So there was a staggered series of commitments. The Iranian commitment to never build a nuclear weapon was permanent and written into the deal. And so Trump always says Iran has never committed to not"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5835275", "date": "2026-05-27", "guest": "Ben Rhodes", "title": "Former Obama adviser reflects on the 'Battle for American Identity'", "question_index": 12, "text": "What outcome are you hoping for now between the U.S. and Iran?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And now we're at war."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5835275", "date": "2026-05-27", "guest": "Ben Rhodes", "title": "Former Obama adviser reflects on the 'Battle for American Identity'", "question_index": 13, "text": "And the difference is thousands of lives have been lost in this war. There's been a financial crisis as a result. Gas prices have been really high, which has made economics - like, personal household finance - a real problem for so many people, not just in the United States.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I just want this war to end. I think if this war resumes, it could be much worse. I think the best outcome right now is essentially Trump gives up on this kind of fantasy of total Iranian capitu"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5835275", "date": "2026-05-27", "guest": "Ben Rhodes", "title": "Former Obama adviser reflects on the 'Battle for American Identity'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you. My guest is Ben Rhodes. And during the Obama administration, he worked in the White House as a speechwriter for the president and then became Obama's deputy national security adviser, so he was in on the negotiations with Iran on the strategy over the nuclear agreement. His new book, \"All We Say,\" is about the battle over American identity and what it means to be American through 15 speeches from Ben Franklin to President Trump. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I think intangibly, the damage to the United States and how people look at us in the world has suffered a existential blow from this entire Iran scenario and story. We've shown that we don't keep "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5835275", "date": "2026-05-27", "guest": "Ben Rhodes", "title": "Former Obama adviser reflects on the 'Battle for American Identity'", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross, back with Ben Rhodes. And during the Obama administration, he worked in the White House as a speechwriter for the president and became Obama's deputy national security adviser. He's now a contributing opinion writer for The New York Times, an analyst for MS NOW and co-host of the podcast \"Pod Save The World.\" His new book, \"All We Say,\" is about the battle over American identity and what it means to be American through 15 speeches, from Ben Franklin to Donald Trump. His previous books \"After The Fall\" and \"The World As It Is: A Memoir Of The Obama White House\" were best-sellers. So in addition to being in on the negotiations with Iran over the nuclear agreement, you were part of the administration when the Obama administration opened relations with Cuba. What was your role then? Were you a speechwriter or were you deputy national security adviser?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I think intangibly, the damage to the United States and how people look at us in the world has suffered a existential blow from this entire Iran scenario and story. We've shown that we don't keep "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5835275", "date": "2026-05-27", "guest": "Ben Rhodes", "title": "Former Obama adviser reflects on the 'Battle for American Identity'", "question_index": 16, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I was both. But I was also the lead negotiator, Terry, so I..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5835275", "date": "2026-05-27", "guest": "Ben Rhodes", "title": "Former Obama adviser reflects on the 'Battle for American Identity'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Oh, wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Negotiated."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5835275", "date": "2026-05-27", "guest": "Ben Rhodes", "title": "Former Obama adviser reflects on the 'Battle for American Identity'", "question_index": 18, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5835275", "date": "2026-05-27", "guest": "Ben Rhodes", "title": "Former Obama adviser reflects on the 'Battle for American Identity'", "question_index": 19, "text": "So President Trump is already threatening the arrest of the former president of Cuba, and there is the implicit threat of a possible invasion of Cuba. Do you think Cuba is next?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I negotiated in secret with Alejandro Castro, who is Raul Castro's son, for a year and a half. And then I went to Cuba - I don't know - probably 10 times through the end of the Obama administration. S"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5835275", "date": "2026-05-27", "guest": "Ben Rhodes", "title": "Former Obama adviser reflects on the 'Battle for American Identity'", "question_index": 20, "text": "And also...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do, unfortunately. Everything that they're doing suggests that, from the indictment of Raul Castro, who I met with several times, and, you know, they're positioning military assets in the Caribbean "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5835275", "date": "2026-05-27", "guest": "Ben Rhodes", "title": "Former Obama adviser reflects on the 'Battle for American Identity'", "question_index": 21, "text": "A lot of children don't have enough food.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's very ugly."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5835275", "date": "2026-05-27", "guest": "Ben Rhodes", "title": "Former Obama adviser reflects on the 'Battle for American Identity'", "question_index": 22, "text": "What was the reasoning behind opening relations with Cuba?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They don't have enough food, and I think it is a moral calamity on this nation that we disregard the fact that we have been strangling an island nation 90 miles from Florida with an embargo that now h"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5835275", "date": "2026-05-27", "guest": "Ben Rhodes", "title": "Former Obama adviser reflects on the 'Battle for American Identity'", "question_index": 23, "text": "What do you think the outcome might be if we do arrest Raul Castro or if we do invade Cuba?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The reasoning is that what we had been doing for 60 years was not working. If your rationale was that these sanctions were going to, you know, pressure the Cuban government into embracing democracy, t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5835275", "date": "2026-05-27", "guest": "Ben Rhodes", "title": "Former Obama adviser reflects on the 'Battle for American Identity'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Ben Rhodes. And during the Obama administration, he worked in the White House as a speechwriter for the president and became Obama's deputy national security adviser. He has a new book, and it's called \"All We Say.\" It's about the battle over American identity and what it means to be American as told through 15 speeches, from Ben Franklin to President Donald Trump. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Raul Castro is 94 years old and doesn't run Cuba anymore. I just - again, I - what are we doing here, Terry? We just murdered the 86-year-old supreme leader of Iran. Again, not saying he's a good guy,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5835275", "date": "2026-05-27", "guest": "Ben Rhodes", "title": "Former Obama adviser reflects on the 'Battle for American Identity'", "question_index": 25, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Ben Rhodes. During the Obama administration, he worked in the White House as a speechwriter for the president and became Obama's deputy national security adviser. He has a new book called \"All We Say,\" and it's about the battle over American identity as told through 15 speeches - inspirational speeches and divisive speeches - all the way from the beginning of America through the Trump administration. So there's a passage I'd like us to listen to from Trump's second inaugural address, and this has to do with the assassination attempt on him from the time he was making a speech in Pennsylvania.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Raul Castro is 94 years old and doesn't run Cuba anymore. I just - again, I - what are we doing here, Terry? We just murdered the 86-year-old supreme leader of Iran. Again, not saying he's a good guy,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5835275", "date": "2026-05-27", "guest": "Ben Rhodes", "title": "Former Obama adviser reflects on the 'Battle for American Identity'", "question_index": 26, "text": "That was President Trump during his second inaugural address. What do you hear when you hear that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Those who wish to stop our cause have tried to take my freedom and, indeed, to take my life. Just a few months ago, in a beautiful Pennsylvania field, an assassin's bullet ripped through my ear. But I"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5835275", "date": "2026-05-27", "guest": "Ben Rhodes", "title": "Former Obama adviser reflects on the 'Battle for American Identity'", "question_index": 27, "text": "So in your book, you include a speech by President Obama - the speech known as the race speech. Explain what this was a reaction to.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I hear something that is actually totally unique in American history, and I don't say that lightly. I'm someone who guards against kind of presentism - that this is the worst moment or the most danger"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5835275", "date": "2026-05-27", "guest": "Ben Rhodes", "title": "Former Obama adviser reflects on the 'Battle for American Identity'", "question_index": 28, "text": "Well, I'm going to play a passage from that speech that is about Jeremiah Wright and what Wright meant to him, and what he objected to about Wright as well. So let's listen to that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So in the spring of 2008, Barack Obama seemed to be on his way to the Democratic nomination. And I write in the book about how it felt as if that had been entirely derailed when, in March, some tapes "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5835275", "date": "2026-05-27", "guest": "Ben Rhodes", "title": "Former Obama adviser reflects on the 'Battle for American Identity'", "question_index": 29, "text": "That was candidate Obama during his first run for president, a speech that became known as the race speech and delivered at the Constitution Center in Philadelphia. I want to skip ahead in that speech. And this is a part that actually is very personal but also got him into a lot of trouble, which we can talk about afterwards. It starts again with him talking about Reverend Wright.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Given my background, my politics and my professed values and ideals, there will no doubt be those for whom my statements of condemnation are not enough. Why associate myself with Reverend Wright in th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5835275", "date": "2026-05-27", "guest": "Ben Rhodes", "title": "Former Obama adviser reflects on the 'Battle for American Identity'", "question_index": 30, "text": "So the reason why that excerpt of candidate Obama's speech got him into trouble is a lot of people said he threw his grandmother under the bus...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He contains within him the contradictions, the good and the bad, of the community that he has served diligently for so many years. I can no more disown him than I can disown the Black community. I can"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5835275", "date": "2026-05-27", "guest": "Ben Rhodes", "title": "Former Obama adviser reflects on the 'Battle for American Identity'", "question_index": 31, "text": "...At the end of that paragraph. What's your reaction to that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5835275", "date": "2026-05-27", "guest": "Ben Rhodes", "title": "Former Obama adviser reflects on the 'Battle for American Identity'", "question_index": 32, "text": "And tell us, too, what Obama's reaction to that was.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My reaction is..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5835275", "date": "2026-05-27", "guest": "Ben Rhodes", "title": "Former Obama adviser reflects on the 'Battle for American Identity'", "question_index": 33, "text": "If you're just joining us, my guest is Ben Rhodes. During the Obama administration, he worked as a speech writer for the president and his deputy national security adviser. He has a new book called \"All We Say.\" It's about the battle over American identity and what it means to be American as told through 15 speeches from Ben Franklin to President Trump. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my reaction, actually, is quite similar to Obama's, which is that it's such a profound misreading of both the speech and of what we should be in this country because what Obama is doing in this "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5835275", "date": "2026-05-27", "guest": "Ben Rhodes", "title": "Former Obama adviser reflects on the 'Battle for American Identity'", "question_index": 34, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to the interview I recorded yesterday with Ben Rhodes. During the Obama administration, he was a presidential speech writer and deputy national security adviser. His new book, \"All We Say,\" is about the battle over American identity. When we left off, we were discussing candidate Obama's speech about race in America. In it, he referred to his white grandmother and how she once said something that struck him as racist, but that remark didn't change how much he loved her. A lot of families are experiencing similar divisions now. A lot of families and friends are divided over their support for Trump or thinking that Trump is a, you know, disastrous president. And they still love each other, but they totally disagree about politics. And race has something to do with that because of Trump's seeming antagonism toward Black people, toward countries with Black-majority or brown-majority populations.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, my reaction, actually, is quite similar to Obama's, which is that it's such a profound misreading of both the speech and of what we should be in this country because what Obama is doing in this "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5835275", "date": "2026-05-27", "guest": "Ben Rhodes", "title": "Former Obama adviser reflects on the 'Battle for American Identity'", "question_index": 35, "text": "What is the argument?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's in everybody's home. You know, I wrote this book in part to follow the thread of this argument that we've been having for 250 years that is so acute right now. And no matter what time period that"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5835275", "date": "2026-05-27", "guest": "Ben Rhodes", "title": "Former Obama adviser reflects on the 'Battle for American Identity'", "question_index": 36, "text": "Well, Ben Rhodes, thank you so much for coming on our show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the argument is fundamentally between two stories of America. A story that - and frankly, JD Vance summed this up well and I use this in the prologue - there's a kind of exclusive version of a"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5835275", "date": "2026-05-27", "guest": "Ben Rhodes", "title": "Former Obama adviser reflects on the 'Battle for American Identity'", "question_index": 37, "text": "Ben Rhodes' new book is titled \"All We Say.\" You can read his opinion pieces in The New York Times, hear him cohosting the podcast \"Pod Save The World\" and see him analyzing news stories on MS NOW. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be award-winning actor Alfre Woodard. She's one of the stars of the new Netflix series \"The Boroughs,\" from the executive producers of \"Stranger Things.\" It's a supernatural mystery set in a retirement community. Woodard will talk about her nearly 50 years of work, from \"Hill Street Blues\" to \"Clemency.\" I hope you'll join us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks, Terry. It's great talking to you."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5835275", "date": "2026-05-27", "guest": "Ben Rhodes", "title": "Former Obama adviser reflects on the 'Battle for American Identity'", "question_index": 38, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Sam Briger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Roberta Shorrock, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez-Wisler. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Therese Madden directed today's show. Our cohost is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks, Terry. It's great talking to you."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5837306", "date": "2026-05-29", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering tenor saxophonist Sonny Rollins, a titan of modern jazz", "question_index": 0, "text": "When you're performing and you're improvising, are you thinking?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Monk said to me one time that if it wasn't for music, life wouldn't be worthwhile living. I mean, I'm not - I'm sort of paraphrasing what he said. But, you know, if I don't play for a little while, I "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5837306", "date": "2026-05-29", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering tenor saxophonist Sonny Rollins, a titan of modern jazz", "question_index": 1, "text": "What do you do when you practice now? I mean, you're a brilliant player. You're a veteran player. I think a lot of people of your stature would probably just perform and not exactly practice anymore.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, no, not really. No, no, I don't think. That's why I really practice and I keep these exercises and so on because when I'm actually on the stage and performing, the optimum condition is not to th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5837306", "date": "2026-05-29", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering tenor saxophonist Sonny Rollins, a titan of modern jazz", "question_index": 2, "text": "One of the things that I love about your playing is your repertoire, the songs that you choose to play. And you have a really diverse repertoire, and you play a lot of old pop songs that many people don't know or have forgotten, as well as some songs that are, like, novelty songs, like, you know, \"Toot Toot Tootsie\" and \"I'm An Old Cowhand\" and Noel Coward songs. Are these - a lot of these songs songs you grew up with?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, when you play a reed instrument, and it might be true with other instruments as well, but when you play a reed instrument, you have to deal with your embouchure, which is the position "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5837306", "date": "2026-05-29", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering tenor saxophonist Sonny Rollins, a titan of modern jazz", "question_index": 3, "text": "When you started performing, was it hard to find other musicians who liked the same songs you did and who wanted to play them? And even back in the days when you were playing with Miles Davis or with Clifford Brown, did they share your musical taste?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. A lot of them are songs that I heard when I was a youngster. When I was growing up, the big thing to do every week was go to the movies on Saturday. And on Saturday, we used to see a lot of thes"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5837306", "date": "2026-05-29", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering tenor saxophonist Sonny Rollins, a titan of modern jazz", "question_index": 4, "text": "Did you ever, like, propose playing something like \"Toot, Toot, Tootsie\" and have other musicians look at you like you were crazy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I would say basically yes. People like Coltrane and Clifford Brown, we all had an appreciation of what we would call today the standard songs. In my case, I might have found some more obscure songs."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5837306", "date": "2026-05-29", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering tenor saxophonist Sonny Rollins, a titan of modern jazz", "question_index": 5, "text": "Why don't we pause here and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they might have thought so, but they wouldn't dare to say it."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5837306", "date": "2026-05-29", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering tenor saxophonist Sonny Rollins, a titan of modern jazz", "question_index": 6, "text": "Right, right. Why don't we pause here and play your recording of \"There's No Business Like Show Business? I love what you do with it. This is Sonny Rollins' \"There's No Business Like Show Business.\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was my gig, you know?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5837306", "date": "2026-05-29", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering tenor saxophonist Sonny Rollins, a titan of modern jazz", "question_index": 7, "text": "Sonny Rollins is my guest. You grew up in Harlem in New York, and your parents - I believe both of your parents - were from the Virgin Islands.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was my gig, you know?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5837306", "date": "2026-05-29", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering tenor saxophonist Sonny Rollins, a titan of modern jazz", "question_index": 8, "text": "What were your parents' ambitions for you? Did they push you to excel when you were young?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5837306", "date": "2026-05-29", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering tenor saxophonist Sonny Rollins, a titan of modern jazz", "question_index": 9, "text": "The jazz life when you started to play actually had a lot of heroin involved with it.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm TV critic David Bianculli. Let's get back to Terry's 1994 interview with Sonny Rollins. He died Monday at the age of 95. Rollins was considered one of the greatest jazz saxophon"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5837306", "date": "2026-05-29", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering tenor saxophonist Sonny Rollins, a titan of modern jazz", "question_index": 10, "text": "And you got involved with that for a while when you were young. Do you think you would have tried something like that if it weren't for it being such a part of the jazz world in the '50s?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5837306", "date": "2026-05-29", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering tenor saxophonist Sonny Rollins, a titan of modern jazz", "question_index": 11, "text": "It must have been your parents' worst nightmare when you entered the jazz world and then started using.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't think I would have, actually. There would really have been no reason, I don't think, to get involved with that. I got involved with it because a lot of my idols were doing it and so on. So we "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5837306", "date": "2026-05-29", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering tenor saxophonist Sonny Rollins, a titan of modern jazz", "question_index": 12, "text": "Were you ever arrested?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, you know, my mother was pretty - since I was a baby, my mother really - she stuck by me, regardless of what I did. She was really in my corner. But I had a lot of problems fr"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5837306", "date": "2026-05-29", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering tenor saxophonist Sonny Rollins, a titan of modern jazz", "question_index": 13, "text": "In the prison?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I was arrested. Unfortunately, I had to get involved with the justice system and all of this stuff, you know. But I was always lucky because I was able to get involved with music p"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5837306", "date": "2026-05-29", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering tenor saxophonist Sonny Rollins, a titan of modern jazz", "question_index": 14, "text": "Did it scare you when you were in prison? Did you say to yourself, like, what am I doing here?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. And in those days, there were other musicians there, you know, so..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5837306", "date": "2026-05-29", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering tenor saxophonist Sonny Rollins, a titan of modern jazz", "question_index": 15, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, it scared me a lot. It scared me a lot. But, again, I was lucky because I could play an instrument."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5837306", "date": "2026-05-29", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering tenor saxophonist Sonny Rollins, a titan of modern jazz", "question_index": 16, "text": "How did you straighten out?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And a lot of the other prisoners knew of me, so I immediately had respect from them. But of course, you know, being locked up is no joyride."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5837306", "date": "2026-05-29", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering tenor saxophonist Sonny Rollins, a titan of modern jazz", "question_index": 17, "text": "What was the bottom?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, it took a little while, but, you know, I slid back a couple of times and everything. But I eventually had gotten down to the complete bottom, so I couldn't have gotten any worse, you know. I mea"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5837306", "date": "2026-05-29", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering tenor saxophonist Sonny Rollins, a titan of modern jazz", "question_index": 18, "text": "How would you protect your horn during the periods when you were homeless?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the bottom was sleeping in parked cars in garages and all that stuff, you know, and what we used to call in those days carrying the stick. Carrying the stick meant that you were homeless. I gues"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5837306", "date": "2026-05-29", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering tenor saxophonist Sonny Rollins, a titan of modern jazz", "question_index": 19, "text": "Were you borrowing other people's horns then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I didn't protect my horn. I mean, I didn't have a horn, really."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5837306", "date": "2026-05-29", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering tenor saxophonist Sonny Rollins, a titan of modern jazz", "question_index": 20, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was borrowing other people's horns."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5837306", "date": "2026-05-29", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering tenor saxophonist Sonny Rollins, a titan of modern jazz", "question_index": 21, "text": "What did you learn about yourself during that period?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5837306", "date": "2026-05-29", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering tenor saxophonist Sonny Rollins, a titan of modern jazz", "question_index": 22, "text": "Once you found that strength and knew that you had it, how else were you able to use it in your life?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, what did I learn about myself? Well, I learned that I had the strength to get over something, which was really deep. And I think one of the things that I'm always - that I always feel good about"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5837306", "date": "2026-05-29", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering tenor saxophonist Sonny Rollins, a titan of modern jazz", "question_index": 23, "text": "So how do you use that strength in your music?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, then I felt I could do anything, you know, and I could get back to what I really wanted to do, which was my music."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5837306", "date": "2026-05-29", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering tenor saxophonist Sonny Rollins, a titan of modern jazz", "question_index": 24, "text": "Over the years, you've taken several hiatuses. There have been several periods where you haven't performed. And I think one period, like, that lasted - was it five years? Was that the longest period away from performing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't know. I think - actually, I think I always had strength in my music, even when I was a kid and I used to practice for hours and hours and hours at a time. I mean, I always had something "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5837306", "date": "2026-05-29", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering tenor saxophonist Sonny Rollins, a titan of modern jazz", "question_index": 25, "text": "Right. This was during the period when you were practicing on the Williamsburg Bridge in New York 'cause it was too loud for you to practice in your apartment.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think about - I think the - well, it's hard to say. I took a hiatus on the bridge, which was pretty well documented."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5837306", "date": "2026-05-29", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering tenor saxophonist Sonny Rollins, a titan of modern jazz", "question_index": 26, "text": "So when you take a hiatus, when do you know it's time to get back to performing?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5837306", "date": "2026-05-29", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering tenor saxophonist Sonny Rollins, a titan of modern jazz", "question_index": 27, "text": "I'd love to know what it feels like to play your horn on the Williamsburg Bridge. And this was the period when you weren't performing, but you were practicing a lot on the bridge, I guess, in the middle of the night?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when I took my hiatus on the bridge, it became apparent because I had sort of gotten what I wanted to do. I was trying to really accomplish something musically. And I had sort of gotten close en"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5837306", "date": "2026-05-29", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering tenor saxophonist Sonny Rollins, a titan of modern jazz", "question_index": 28, "text": "You were on the pedestrian walk?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, yeah. We played in the night and in the daytime - anytime. It was actually a beautiful place to play because it was a nice space up there. You were really on top of the subway. The trains that c"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5837306", "date": "2026-05-29", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering tenor saxophonist Sonny Rollins, a titan of modern jazz", "question_index": 29, "text": "Yeah. New Yorkers are immune to everything", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, the pedestrian walk. So it's really a nice space up there, and you're sort of right in the middle of everything. You can see the - Manhattan and, on the other side, Brooklyn. And the boats would"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5837306", "date": "2026-05-29", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering tenor saxophonist Sonny Rollins, a titan of modern jazz", "question_index": 30, "text": ". It's just been a pleasure to talk with you. We've been wanting to talk with you on the show for so long.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, the pedestrian walk. So it's really a nice space up there, and you're sort of right in the middle of everything. You can see the - Manhattan and, on the other side, Brooklyn. And the boats would"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5837306", "date": "2026-05-29", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering tenor saxophonist Sonny Rollins, a titan of modern jazz", "question_index": 31, "text": "Thank you so much for doing it. It's been wonderful.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thanks, Terry."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5837306", "date": "2026-05-29", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering tenor saxophonist Sonny Rollins, a titan of modern jazz", "question_index": 32, "text": "Why did you leave your piano behind?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Most of the things in there, I had to eventually throw away, get taken away. You know, I had left my piano there, which was very sentimental to me. A lot of the guys played on it. Monk used to play on"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5837306", "date": "2026-05-29", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering tenor saxophonist Sonny Rollins, a titan of modern jazz", "question_index": 33, "text": "Do you know what happened to your piano?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, because I was so afraid of the fact that toxic material might have gotten into the mechanism of the piano. I was afraid that I would be handling something of that sort."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5837306", "date": "2026-05-29", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering tenor saxophonist Sonny Rollins, a titan of modern jazz", "question_index": 34, "text": "Well, after you were evacuated from your building on September 12, you drove to Boston, where you were scheduled to play on September 15. So many events were canceled in the days after September 11. Did you speak to the producers at that event and have a long talk about whether you should go on with the show or not?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, I don't. I don't. I tried to give it to the Salvation Army. So I ended up leaving it in the apartment and explaining to the people in the apartment I was hoping that they would be able to handle i"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5837306", "date": "2026-05-29", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering tenor saxophonist Sonny Rollins, a titan of modern jazz", "question_index": 35, "text": "Did that have to do in part with having walked down 39 steps...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I spoke to my wife, Lucille, and I was all for not doing the show because I was really very unsteady on my feet and..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5837306", "date": "2026-05-29", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering tenor saxophonist Sonny Rollins, a titan of modern jazz", "question_index": 36, "text": "...39 flights of stairs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5837306", "date": "2026-05-29", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering tenor saxophonist Sonny Rollins, a titan of modern jazz", "question_index": 37, "text": "I thought I'd play another track from your new CD, \"Without A Song: The 9/11 Concert.\" And this is \"A Nightingale Sang In Berkeley Square.\" It's a beautiful version of it. How did you first hear this song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, right. It did. And also, you know, I was just really shook up. So I wanted to cancel it. But you know my wife, Lucille. And Lucille was a person that never wanted to violate a contract in any w"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. So many of us became aware of what a great actor Clarke Peters is from his role in one of the best TV series ever made, HBOs \"The Wire.\" He played police detective Lester Freamon, who helped track down the drug dealers the detectives were looking for through his research and his analysis of wiretaps. The series was cocreated by David Simon, who also cocreated the HBO series \"Treme,\" set in New Orleans shortly after Hurricane Katrina. Peters costarred in that, too, as a Mardi Gras Indian chief who returns to his damaged home and tries to rebuild his life. In Spike Lee's film \"Da 5 Bloods,\" he was one of the four Vietnam vets who returns to Vietnam decades after the war. Now he's one of the stars of the Netflix series \"The Boroughs.\" Clarke plays one of the residents in a retirement community that promises an almost utopian chapter of your life. But some of the residents start dying while others start experiencing some very disturbing, inexplicable encounters and visions. Something's going on, and it seems to be something supernatural. Clarke Peters grew up in Englewood, New Jersey, but moved to Europe in the '70s and settled in London, where he continues to live and is speaking to us from. He's been in London stage productions of the musicals \"Guys And Dolls,\" \"Porgy And Bess\" and \"Chicago,\" as well as dramas. He cowrote and costarred in the original production of the musical \"Five Guys Named Moe,\" which was first staged in London. It moved to Broadway, where it was also a big hit. Clarke Peters, welcome to FRESH AIR. It's such a pleasure to have you.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 1, "text": "You did a lot more than that.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 2, "text": "But I figured, let me keep my intro short so we have more time to actually talk. I could've gone on. I left out a lot of series and movies. So let's get to \"The Boroughs.\" So the cast is largely in their 60s and 70s because it's set in a retirement community. You yourself, you know, as Clarke Peters, you're in your mid-70s. What kind of roles do you think you would've been offered at this age when you started professional, acting professionally, in the 1970s?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 3, "text": "What appealed to you about the role in \"The Boroughs\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 4, "text": "There are roles for older people where, especially sometimes when the cast is all about older people, where I sense something condescending. They're either like, oh, it's so cute, they're on an adventure, you know? Oh, it's so cute, they're still walking.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To tell you the truth, honestly, I didn't want to do \"The Boroughs\" because someone had likened it to \"Stranger Things,\" which I hadn't seen before this offer came through. And what I didn't want to b"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 5, "text": "Oh, it's so cute.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "To tell you the truth, honestly, I didn't want to do \"The Boroughs\" because someone had likened it to \"Stranger Things,\" which I hadn't seen before this offer came through. And what I didn't want to b"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 6, "text": "They're still breathing. Oh, it's so cute, they've fallen in love.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 7, "text": "Do you get offered roles like that? And what do you do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 8, "text": "I hope you're not tired talking about \"The Wire,\" but it is one of the best TV series ever made, maybe the best. And you're one of the stars. So can we talk about that just a little?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yeah, it's - I try to let people know that just because we live in a society where we take the elderly and we hide them away, doesn't mean that they're not valued or that they have something to o"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 9, "text": "Thank you. So you played police detective Lester Freamon. And you're the detective who finds clues through, like, online research and files, through contacts, wiretaps. And you can put two and two together and synthesize the clues that you found into some kind of path. But you start off in the series working the pawnshop beat. And I want to play a scene from early on in the first season. You've just found an important clue that no one else on the investigation has been able to find, identifying who Avon Barksdale is.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure. We can talk about it a lot."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 10, "text": "And so he's one of the two major drug dealers in the series. So here's a scene where detective Jimmy McNulty comes to see you in your office. He's impressed with the work you've done. But when he walks in, he finds you putting together miniature models of furniture.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 11, "text": "And McNulty is played by Dominic West, and he speaks first.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 12, "text": "I heard you say as we were listening to that, four months - just one? You remember the lines from that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 13, "text": "This was one of your first scenes, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 14, "text": "Is that also why you remember it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 15, "text": "Oh, and then it came back to you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 16, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And then it came back to me, yes. Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 17, "text": "Is Lester the role you auditioned for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm not one of those actors that holds onto the stuff. I'm amazed, you know, when Ian McKellen, for example, will all of a sudden out of nowhere start reciting reams of Shakespeare that is appropriate"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 18, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Did I audition for Lester? No. I don't think I did, but I was quite happy to land in Lester's lap, so to speak. You know, he's the guy I want to be when I grow up, you know?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 19, "text": "Did you only know the scenes you were in, or did you also get to see what was happening behind the scenes in city politics and, you know, among the drug dealers and the corner boys and - did you get to see their scenes, or did you just know what you would know as your character?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "He's - because he does do police work. You know, he doesn't have access to the internet. You know, it was old-fashioned research, when you went through volumes of - tomes of information, whether it wa"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 20, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. Back then, you know, we would get the whole episode, and you would read the whole episode. Nowadays, you know, you get a scene. You have no idea the context of the scene, and you're asked to audit"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 21, "text": "What did you think of the police when you were growing up? And did playing a police detective give you an empathy for police that you maybe didn't feel before?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Pumping gas, you know? I never expected to be there that long, you know. But thank the Lord I was, you know."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 22, "text": "Englewood, New Jersey.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I grew up with great respect for the police because in Englewood..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 23, "text": "I know that it took you years to actually watch \"The Wire.\" So my question is, what's wrong with you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Englewood, New Jersey, we knew the police. We went to school with their children. They knew our parents, you know? And so it was almost something that you may wanted to have - to aspire to. Going t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 24, "text": "Were you surprised at how good it was?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well done."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 25, "text": "Yeah. Agreed. So we need to take a short break here. Let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Clarke Peters. He's currently one of the stars of the Netflix series \"The Boroughs.\" He was one of the stars of the HBO series \"The Wire.\" And in Spike Lee's film \"Da 5 Bloods,\" he played one of the four Vietnam vets who returns to Vietnam decades after the war. We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I was. I was. I actually binge-watched all five seasons. I had double knee replacements, and I was recuperating. And I thought, you know, I've only seen the first two episodes of each season bec"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Clarke Peters. He's currently starring in the Netflix series \"The Boroughs.\" You are one of the stars of Spike Lee's 2020 film, \"Da 5 Bloods.\" And so this is about four Black Vietnam vets who return to Vietnam decades after the war. They want to bring back the remains of the unit leader, Norm, who was killed in the battle he helped the men survive and was also, like, a really good friend to these four vets. So they're returning after having not seen each other for years, and they're going to bring back the remains of Norm. And they're going to search for the gold bars that they discovered and buried, hoping to bring them back and cash in.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I was. I was. I actually binge-watched all five seasons. I had double knee replacements, and I was recuperating. And I thought, you know, I've only seen the first two episodes of each season bec"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 27, "text": "So this is your character talking about Norman, the squad leader, whose remains they're going back to find.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I was. I was. I actually binge-watched all five seasons. I had double knee replacements, and I was recuperating. And I thought, you know, I've only seen the first two episodes of each season bec"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 28, "text": "That was a scene from Spike Lee's film \"Da 5 Bloods,\" featuring my guest, Clarke Peters. You were an antiwar activist, and you served in part as kind of like a medic, helping people who were tear-gassed or injured by the police. Can you describe your objections to the war, what you thought of the war, and what you were willing to do to avoid the draft and avoid being sent to the war?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Otis) Wasn't many brothers who made squad leader. The Man was using bloods for cannon fodder. They put our poor Black [expletive] on the front line, killing us off like flies. Stormin' earned his "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 29, "text": "What were you arrested for?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "First of all, I was with a group of students from Boston University. We'd taken a bus down to, I think, the last moratorium. I'm not too sure. And as a medic, I was asked to not just look after the pr"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 30, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "when we got to this courtroom, it was full of smoke because people smoked cigarettes back in those days. There was cheering coming from the gallery. And I walked into this courtroom - three tiers. At "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 31, "text": "So were you gaveled not guilty?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Next. And this is all happening in less than an hour."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 32, "text": "Well, at another time, in another place, that's - that was a real possibility.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Of course I was gaveled not guilty, you know? And they gave me back my gas mask and my things, and I hightailed it out of there. You know, to be exposed to our system like that, with no information as"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 33, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you 'cause we need to take another break. My guest is Clarke Peters, and he's currently one of the stars of the Netflix series \"The Boroughs.\" He was one of the stars of the HBO series \"The Wire.\" He was in Spike Lee's film as one of the stars in \"Da 5 Bloods,\" and he's been in plenty of other things, including a lot of shows on the London stage. So we'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Maybe another time, but not necessarily another place. And that's my point, is that, you know, having had that experience, the scales dropped from my eyes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 34, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Clarke Peters. He's currently one of the stars of the Netflix series \"The Boroughs.\" He was one of the stars of the HBO series \"The Wire\" in the role of police detective Lester Freamon. In Spike Lee's 2020 film \"Da 5 Bloods,\" he played one of the four Vietnam vets who returns to Vietnam decades after the war to bring back the remains of their squad leader and take care of some unfinished business. So you settled first in Paris, and then you moved to England, largely because of England's great reputation for great theater. And you got roles there. You even got a role in \"Hair,\" which you had auditioned for several times in New York and never got", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Maybe another time, but not necessarily another place. And that's my point, is that, you know, having had that experience, the scales dropped from my eyes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 35, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Maybe another time, but not necessarily another place. And that's my point, is that, you know, having had that experience, the scales dropped from my eyes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 36, "text": "So what's your theory about why you were getting more roles in England on the stage than you got in New York?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 37, "text": "That's such a great show. The songs are so good. And you played Sky Masterson, right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "First of all, my career began in England. My first professional job was in England with the Watford Rep - Repertory Company - doing \"Guys And Dolls.\""}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 38, "text": "How great is that? So you got to sing \"Luck Be A Lady\" and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did, yes. Three times there and then twice with the National Theatre."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 39, "text": "\"I've Never Been...\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) I've never been in..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 40, "text": "What a great duet. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing)...Love before."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 41, "text": "Oh.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And also the - I mean, the best song in that is (singing) my time of day..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 42, "text": "You are so right. And it's not in the movie.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) ...Is the dark time."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 43, "text": "Well, it's got unusual intervals. Was it hard for you to sing? Do you want to do a few bars of it? It's such a great song.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 44, "text": "It was still lovely, though.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) My time of day is the dark time. A couple of deals before dawn, when the street belongs to the cop and the janitor with a mop, and the grocery clerks are all gone. And the smell of the rain-"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 45, "text": "God, what a great song, and what a pleasure to hear you sing it. You have a pretty big range, right? That was, like, really deep at the end.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 46, "text": "I mean, down low in the keyboard.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 47, "text": "That sounds dangerous", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm a bass-baritone with tenor tendencies. That's what I like to say."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 48, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm a bass-baritone with tenor tendencies. That's what I like to say."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 49, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I - you know, as it came out of my mouth..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 50, "text": "So did that make you flexible on what kind of singing parts you got - that you had, like, the...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I thought, yes, that's probably the wrong way to put it."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 51, "text": "...Bass and the tenor tendencies?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 52, "text": "Were you Crown or Porgy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes. By the time we got to Porgy in \"Porgy And Bess,\" that's in my middle range, but..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 53, "text": "Oh, wow.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was Porgy."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 54, "text": "Well, \"Bess, You Is My Woman Now\" is...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. Yeah. I liked - I loved that."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 55, "text": "...Beautiful.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 56, "text": "It's - that's a hard one.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Vocalizing) I'm not going to sing that one, Terry."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 57, "text": "How is being Black in London different from being Black in New York or other places that you'd been to in the U.S.?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Vocalizing) I'm not going to sing that one, Terry."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 58, "text": "I understand exactly what...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "was back - why I came to England. I can address that particular question through theater, OK? What England had to offer, or the way I feel I was successful in England, was first of all because I was a"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 59, "text": "...You're saying.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 60, "text": "Yeah, I don't think musicals are, like, a big tradition in Jamaica.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 61, "text": "Musicals are big in England.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". And neither are they in England. But a pantomime is. Yes. That's their..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 62, "text": "They weren't then?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. They are now. Now they are."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 63, "text": "Oh, I see what you're saying.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they weren't - not for any - not for people of color."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 64, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 65, "text": "What songs did you sing in \"Bubbling Brown Sugar\"?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not for people of color at all. And because the dynamic - the political dynamic had to change, to a large degree, I think that I was help - I was here to help facilitate that change or that acceptance"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 66, "text": "The Ellington song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I sang \"Sophisticated Ladies (ph).\" Yes. I sang..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 67, "text": "That also has some unusual intervals in it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "\"Georgia\" - yeah, the Ellington. Gosh. Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 68, "text": "A few bars?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I get them, believe me."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 69, "text": "That's really nice. Who would have thought that Lester Freamon could sing like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) They say into your early life romance came, and in this heart of yours burned a flame. A flame that flickered one day and died away."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 70, "text": "You wrote - cowrote a musical and costarred in the original production. It's called \"Five Guys Named Moe.\" It originated in London, but then it moved to Broadway and it was a huge success. And I never saw it, but I always assumed it was based on '60s harmony groups like the jazz-oriented Four Freshmen or the more folk-oriented The Brothers Four or the very middle-of-the-road The Four Preps. But it's actually, like, Louis Jordan songs. And they're kind of like R&B swing songs, like jump songs. What was the origin of the idea?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That was cute."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 71, "text": "That's a shame.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". So I decided to let them talk to me. So I got as many songs of his that I could and strung them together loosely in a storyline, and it starts. I mean, just when you think about the song \"Five Guys "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 72, "text": "It hurts you more than it hurts me", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You don't know."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 73, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You don't know."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 74, "text": "You know, so we talked about your singing in musicals in London, but you also had a small background vocal part in the 1977 hit \"Boogie Nights\" by Heatwave. Which part is you? The bass part?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 75, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, you're very sneaky there, Terry."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 76, "text": "\"Love And Affection.\" And you're on that, too.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Come on. I got your number. But even before that, there's a better one. Joan Armatrading had a hit with a song called \"Love And Affection.\""}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 77, "text": "And your part is?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. That - yes. That was the first. That was '76, that one. Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 78, "text": "How did you get to be on that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": ". (Singing) Oh, give me love, ooh."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 79, "text": "So why don't we hear that track and you singing bass on it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "When I came to England, and I was signed as a singer-songwriter with Essex Music in '73. Joan was also there, and we met there. She was part of a vocal duet group. And we would see each other, and we "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 80, "text": "That's my guest, Clarke Peters, singing the bass part on Joan Armatrading's \"Love And Affection.\" Let me reintroduce you 'cause we need to take another short break here. My guest is Clarke Peters. He's currently one of the stars of the Netflix series \"The Boroughs.\" He was one of the stars of \"The Wire\" and one of the stars of Spike Lee's 2020 film, \"Da 5 Bloods.\" We'll be right back after a break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Once more with feeling. Give me love. Give me love. Give me love."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 81, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Clarke Peters. He's currently one of the stars of the Netflix series \"The Boroughs.\" He was one of the stars of HBO's \"The Wire\" in the role of police detective Lester Freamon. And in Spike Lee's film \"Da 5 Bloods,\" he played one of the four Vietnam vets who returns to Vietnam decades after the war. So you grew up in Englewood, New Jersey. Would you describe the neighborhood?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Once more with feeling. Give me love. Give me love. Give me love."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 82, "text": "What changed in your family's financial life that precipitated the move?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. My neighborhood was brilliant. There must have been 15 children on those three blocks. Across the street from me was an Irish family. Next door to us was a German carpenter, master carpenter, Mr"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 83, "text": "How old were you when you moved?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My father getting a job and being promoted to the advertising manager for a company called Home Light (ph). Yeah, they were upwardly mobile, I guess, is the word that was bantered about then."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 84, "text": "What boroughs?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was 7."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 85, "text": "Your father was a commercial artist. Did he take you to museums?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Harlem. Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 86, "text": "Oh, that was a big deal. Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, he did. And particularly in the early '60s when that exhibition - when the Egyptian exhibition came through New York. You know, I think it..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 87, "text": "Part of your family is of Native American descent. And when you played an Indian chief on \"Treme,\" did you relate to that role because...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, yeah, it was. We spent a lot of time there. And my mother's sister, Ruth (ph), she always lived - she always made sure she lived near a center of culture. So if it was not the New York Museum, i"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 88, "text": "Clarke Peters, I have so enjoyed talking with you and hearing you sing. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Absolutely. It resonated with me deeper than I could've ever expected, and particularly when meeting them and talking with some of the older people who understood the history. Because it's"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 89, "text": "Yes.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. Thank you, Terry. Catch you the next time around, eh?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 90, "text": "All right. Be well.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. Thank you, Terry. Catch you the next time around, eh?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5845123", "date": "2026-06-04", "guest": "Clarke Peters", "title": "'The Wire' actor Clarke Peters explains why he couldn't say no to 'The Boroughs'", "question_index": 91, "text": "Clarke Peters is one of the stars of the new Netflix series \"The Boroughs.\" After we take a short break, TV critic David Bianculli will review the new series \"Cape Fear.\" This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And you."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5847813", "date": "2026-06-05", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury reflects on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 0, "text": "I wonder what the first things were they told you about it to explain what the show would be like.", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. In honor of the Tony Awards this Sunday, let's continue our celebration of Tony Award winners we love. Angela Lansbury delivered unforgettable performances for her starring roles in"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5847813", "date": "2026-06-05", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury reflects on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 1, "text": "This is the third musical that Stephen Sondheim had a contribution to. Of course, he wrote this. But he did the lyrics for \"Gypsy,\" which you starred in.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they took it for granted that I knew the legend, because coming from England originally, I know all about Sweeney Todd. When I say I know all about Sweeney Todd, I know that he was almost a Gran"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5847813", "date": "2026-06-05", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury reflects on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 2, "text": "Is he the kind of composer who will sit down at the piano with you and sing his songs for you to give you an idea of what he had in his mind?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. It's the third time I've worked with him, actually."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5847813", "date": "2026-06-05", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury reflects on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 3, "text": "I want to talk with you about the character that you play. Now, you had said that finding the character was left completely to you. And you went back to books written about Sweeney Todd and the original book to find out a little more about the character. Now, you manage in the production to convey simultaneously meanness and humor, an ability to be murderous with an ability to be extremely warm and friendly and huggable, lovable. And you have the audience on your side as you're participating...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Mrs. Lovett, singing) And no wonder, with the price of meat what it is when you get it. Never thought I'd live to see the day. Men'd think it was a treat, finding poor animals what are dying in th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5847813", "date": "2026-06-05", "guest": "Angela Lansbury", "title": "Angela Lansbury reflects on her great performances on stage and screen", "question_index": 4, "text": "...In these murders. What are some of the ways, do you feel, that you were able to convey all of that and have the audience with you like that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. You may know my guest, comic Josh Johnson, from his comedy specials, from his popular YouTube channel in which he posts complete sets of his frequent performances at the Comedy Cellar and other clubs and gets millions of views, and from his work on \"The Daily Show.\" He's now one of the rotating anchors of the show after having been a writer and field correspondent. For several years, he toured with Trevor Noah. Johnson also has been a writer for \"The Tonight Show With Jimmy Fallon.\" He's really funny, whether it's political humor, cultural issues like his bit, \"Drake Vs Kendrick Explained For White People,\" or personal stories like why he's an easy target for muggers, how he's been known to faint and why he sometimes feels like an alien and thinks he's on the spectrum. His new comedy special is called \"Symphony.\" He's added music to this special. Let's start with a clip from The Daily Show, from the most recent time he anchored in April. It's about Trump's ballroom. In addition to Johnson, this includes news clips of Senator Lindsey Graham and Katie Zacharia, who's a former Department of Homeland Security spokesperson.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 1, "text": "Josh Johnson, welcome to FRESH AIR. I think you're really funny. How much of the material do you get to write yourself when you're anchoring?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Hold on. Is the president depressed?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 2, "text": "Tell me one thing that's different writing for Jimmy Fallon versus writing opening monologues for Trevor Noah or - I don't know if you were still writing when Jon Stewart came back to the show.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It varies pretty much day to day. There are some times you come in with the full sort of arc of the idea that you have for the show. But every day that I'm working there, I work with the writers and t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 3, "text": "You do a lot of comedy that's self-deprecating, about how you're not muscular, you're not an alpha male. I just started having protein powder. So I thought this part was hilarious that you bought a larger size of protein powder because you wanted to get more muscular, but it was so heavy, you needed to work out just to carry it home. So I want to play one of your stories from your first album, and it's about why you're a target for getting mugged. So let's listen.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, I was for a bit. And then I got promoted. So I would say the biggest difference is, when I was at Fallon, I was on the monologue team. And, you know, you're distilling pieces of the news and ever"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 4, "text": "I guess the potent lesson from that is, like, pee is a dangerous weapon", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So who needs karate, am I right? Whoa."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 5, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So who needs karate, am I right? Whoa."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 6, "text": "So how close is that to what actually happened?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, and everyone hates pee."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 7, "text": "It always seems to me it really takes a gift to tell a story like that and have people laugh and enjoy themselves and see themselves in what you're saying, as opposed to, like, oh, that's so sad. He's so weak, and he's such an easy target. Was it hard at first to figure out how to make people laugh, as opposed to see you as a - you know, a pathetic figure because you're not strong?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think the order of events is correct. Like, the way that it really happened - which I don't always like talking about because it's a lot like telling someone how a magic trick is done 'cause then, l"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 8, "text": "That's right. That's right, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I mean, I think most people have an insecurity about themselves, whatever it is. Some people aren't particularly strong, or some people aren't confident in their looks, or some - but, like, one "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 9, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's the main thing, isn't it?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 10, "text": "So is comedy ever a useful weapon to diffuse a situation?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm telling you the story now, removed by years. So one, I'm over it, and then two, I must have made it out, or else this would be a hologram."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 11, "text": "Yeah", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure. I mean, that's happened countless times. I can't even think of, like, a good example. I mean, that was basically most of high school."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 12, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, sure. I mean, that's happened countless times. I can't even think of, like, a good example. I mean, that was basically most of high school."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 13, "text": "Where was your high school? Like, what was your high school like?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 14, "text": "We need to take a short break here, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Josh Johnson, and he's a really funny comic who has a new comedy special that's now streaming on HBO Max. It's called \"Symphony.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My high school was a Catholic school in Alexandria, Louisiana. And yeah, I had what I'd say were a decent amount of friends, but I think I had what is - you could almost call a maybe normal amount of,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 15, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with comic Josh Johnson. He's one of the rotating anchors on \"The Daily Show.\" His new comedy special \"Symphony\" is streaming on HBO Max. I want to play another bit that you do. And this is also from your first comedy album, \"I Like You,\" which was on Comedy Central Records. And I'm playing things from this album 'cause I feel like this album is your this-is-who-I-am album, 'cause you talk a lot about yourself. You present this, like, projection for the public of your self-image. And in this, you talk about feeling like an alien.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My high school was a Catholic school in Alexandria, Louisiana. And yeah, I had what I'd say were a decent amount of friends, but I think I had what is - you could almost call a maybe normal amount of,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 16, "text": "That is really funny. Later in the bit, you talk about how you think you're on the spectrum, the autism spectrum. What makes you think that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I feel like a alien that snatched a Black body and didn't do any research at all. Didn't do a thing. Didn't read a book. Didn't watch a movie. Doesn't know what \"Boyz N The Hood\" is, but loves trains,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 17, "text": "Are you more comfortable on stage talking to people, but not having to have a conversation with them?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I - you know, I've thought that ever since I was a kid because of how - I guess because of how odd everyone always said that I was, or my general - like I said before - like, fixations and ten"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 18, "text": "And I also want to get to another part of the bit that we just heard, which is that sometimes you feel like an alien who snatched a Black body but didn't do the research. What makes you feel that way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I - that's a good example. It's like, I think that in doing a show and expressing my ideas and performing for people, I can be incredibly comfortable. But then I think one on one or, yeah, in,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 19, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I think as far as being out of place and a feeling, you know, there's a lot of that that I felt growing up. And some of it was because of my interests and how maybe singular they felt at the"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 20, "text": "So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So then you can literally just engage in the things that you care about. You can be open about your interests and everything because you're already, quote-unquote, \"weird\" just by being yourself."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 21, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 22, "text": "What were you nerding out on?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...I think that that helped."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 23, "text": "What were you building?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It seems so commonplace now, but truly, it's, like, anime, puzzles. I would get fixated on certain sections of a story. Like, I would read a piece of a story over and over again. Never mind, like, fin"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 24, "text": "In the end of the bit that we most recently heard, you mention trains - that you haven't seen \"Boyz N The Hood,\" but you're into trains. Like, where do trains come in?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I'd just build different structures, or I would - I'd try to figure out how to build - I'd try to draw a thing and then figure out how to build it with the Legos. And that is not a bad thing. "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 25, "text": "Well, we need to take another break here. So let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Josh Johnson. He's one of the rotating anchors on \"The Daily Show,\" and he has a new special streaming on HBO Max called \"Symphony.\" We'll be right back. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think, I mean, it could've been trains. It could've been sharks. It could've been any number of things. But I picked trains at the time because in my mind, it flowed the best with the rest of what I"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 26, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with comic Josh Johnson. He's known for his YouTube comedy channel on which he posts complete sets of his frequent appearances at the Comedy Cellar and other clubs. And he gets millions of views. He's also served as a writer and field correspondent on \"The Daily Show\" and is now one of the anchors. He's done several comedy specials. His new one is called \"Symphony,\" and it's streaming on HBO Max. So you grew up in Alexandria, Louisiana. Would you describe your neighborhood?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "All aboard for night train. (Singing) Miami, Florida. Atlanta, Georgia. Raleigh, North Carolina. Hey."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 27, "text": "You want to elaborate on the troubles?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. So we moved a few times within Alexandria. And I look back on some of the places that we lived as, you know, obviously, like, not the best neighborhood, especially from the stories, if you watch"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 28, "text": "So you went to Catholic school. Was that from grade school through high school?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, there'd be, like, shootings or police calls. There'd be a decent amount of violence in the area. And, you know, I was very blessed that a lot of it passed me by, in a way. Like, I didn't hav"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 29, "text": "So what was grade school like? Was that a neighborhood school?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I went to Catholic school from, like, junior high to - through high school."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 30, "text": "So that's like an alternative school.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, no. So grade school was actually my mom, my aunt, my grandma and my grandfather, yeah, like, all pooled their money together and sent me to, like, a Montessori school."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 31, "text": "In my experience, having interviewed a lot of comics, a lot of comics - and I'll include you in this - are like, they're so smart and so perceptive. And, like, you know the right word to use to get a specific coloration of an emotion or an experience. And it's like, for me, like, you're a comedic short storyteller, you know? Like, you know how to build a story, so you're a very good writer. But comics don't necessarily do well in school, and they don't necessarily care about school. Did you care? Did you care about your grades? Did you care about, you know, wanting to learn? Because your parents were both teachers. Your mother was a special ed teacher, at least for a while. Your father was a teacher. I'm not sure what he taught.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Kind of. Yeah, yeah. I'm not the best at describing the, like, Montessori method. It's just we didn't have specific grades in the way that you would at your regular public school. What we had were sor"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 32, "text": "Oh, yeah, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, so my care was in the fact that I had a general understanding from a really young age that everyone was, like, putting everything into me, if that makes sense."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 33, "text": "What were they?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And so I wanted to do well because of that. You know, I think that when it came time for me to get grades back, I cared about getting a good grade for the reasons that we've just been talking about. B"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 34, "text": "Makes sense. Yeah, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So English was one of them."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 35, "text": "Your mother was a special ed teacher and then after neurosurgery became a librarian. What happened that required the neurosurgery?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, I really, really loved the stories. I remember one of my teachers was going through Chaucer with us. And I just remember being so blown away that this entire world got created. Like, that wa"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 36, "text": "Oh, that's nice.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So yes, she got really sick, and the neurosurgery basically was to save her life, you know? She was in a situation where even with the surgery, they said that she wouldn't walk again, that she'd have "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 37, "text": "So you're surrounded by books you could read.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 38, "text": "Your grandmother had Alzheimer's, and you talk about this in one of your performances - that she said to you, I know I'm losing my memory; I will never forget who you are. 'Cause you always worried you'd go there and she'd not know who you are. You can't control your brain like that, and you can't control it especially if you have any form of Alzheimer's or other related - you know, other form of dementia. Did she always remember you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Easily, easily. So it was fantastic. And it was some of my first - outside of school, it was some of my first, like, engagement with the internet because we couldn't afford a computer. So I had to do "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 39, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, she really did. Until the end there, you know, I think that one thing that she did do was use every moment of being completely lucid to communicate her feelings as accurately as possible. And "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 40, "text": "Well, let me reintroduce you again. We have to take a break here. If you're just joining us, my guest is comic Josh Johnson. He has a new comedy special that's streaming on HBO Max. It's called \"Symphony.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Other than that."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 41, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with comic Josh Johnson. He's one of the rotating anchors on \"The Daily Show,\" and he has a new comedy special called \"Symphony.\" It's streaming on HBO Max. When you were growing up, did you listen to a lot of comedy or watch a lot of comedy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...Other than that."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 42, "text": "What made you think you should try it yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, as much as I could. Like, everything. Everything."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 43, "text": "What was your first time at the mic like? Do you remember any of the stories or jokes that you told?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think just a love for it. I just really enjoyed it, and I figured, why not? Like, I had an obsession with writing, and I had an obsession with comedy, so why not try to put those two things together"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 44, "text": "That's so disorienting.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So my first open mic in Chicago was, like, the night that I got there, like, the night that I got there, like, the night that I landed. And I don't remember..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 45, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, but it - but I don't know. It's like, why waste time?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 46, "text": "Was it the - do you think it was the audience's fault? Like, they didn't get you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know? It's like - it's - you have the chance right now. I tried to do the same thing when I moved to New York. I got to New York and immediately just went out and started going to mics and went to"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 47, "text": "It was you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, it was me."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 48, "text": "What did your parents and your grandmother think, after having invested so much of their, you know, time and money and emotional thinking into schooling you, into sending you to the Montessori school? I don't know if they helped you pay for college, but, you know, you went to college. And now you're pursuing this really risky profession. How many people really make it as a comic? Were they wringing their hands and thinking, oh, all of that for nothing, he's throwing his life away?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was - no, it was definitely me. And I think - I will say this. I sort of walked into the third one with the confidence that I literally just landed in Chicago, and the first two went so well that, "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 49, "text": "In college, you were studying theater with a focus on lighting design, which is very specialized. Did you already think you wanted to do comedy and this was the closest you were going to get in college?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, they were weirdly supportive. But I will also say that I did spend my time getting real jobs, doing - never asking them to send me money or anything like that, never - if anything, I tried to send"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 50, "text": "So being a theater major and working in theaters, doing lighting design, that must've helped you feel comfortable in comedy clubs. You were used to being in theaters, and this was even - you know, comedy cellar's going to be even smaller than a theater and more informal as well.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a really good question. I think that it was the closest thing outside of actually performing - which I think would've been terrible for me at the time - that I could do that kept me close to li"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 51, "text": "Josh Johnson, it's been a pleasure to talk with you. Thank you so much.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, it was so much less about the number and more about getting my ideas across, which I felt like I'd been writing for so long, and then it just became about taking the leaps of saying what"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5854494", "date": "2026-06-11", "guest": "Josh Johnson", "title": "Comic Josh Johnson explains why he shares his insecurities on stage", "question_index": 52, "text": "Josh Johnson's new comedy special, \"Symphony,\" is streaming on HBO Max. After we take a short break, jazz critic Martin Johnson will review a new album by trumpeter and composer Adam O'Farrill, who's the son of musician Arturo O'Farrill. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you. I appreciate your time. Thanks so much for having me on."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5862646", "date": "2026-06-19", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering South African-born pianist and composer Abdullah Ibrahim", "question_index": 0, "text": "What was it that finally made you decide to leave South Africa? Was there a last straw or a breaking point?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In terms of the music, it was probably for me the only means of escape because at least we could play in our own environment. So I grew up in - playing dance bands, behind vocal groups, playing variet"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5862646", "date": "2026-06-19", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering South African-born pianist and composer Abdullah Ibrahim", "question_index": 1, "text": "After you left South Africa, you returned again in the mid-'70s and recorded some sessions there. And one of the pieces that has recently been reissued is your piece \"Cape Town Fringe.\" And I know that this is very popular in South Africa at the time of the Soweto uprising. Can you tell me about writing and recording this piece?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There are vivid images and memories of confrontation with apartheid and being subjected to its brutality. The - so one has decision to make. Either you stay there and toe the line, or you leave and tr"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5862646", "date": "2026-06-19", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering South African-born pianist and composer Abdullah Ibrahim", "question_index": 2, "text": "On the original recording of \"Mannenberg,\" recorded in the mid-'70s, you're playing electric piano, which I don't think you play anymore", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. It was after deep contemplation, being out all those years that we decided to go back, but it was at a time when I took shahada, when I became Muslim. And that was on the way to making Hajj, goin"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5862646", "date": "2026-06-19", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering South African-born pianist and composer Abdullah Ibrahim", "question_index": 3, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. It was after deep contemplation, being out all those years that we decided to go back, but it was at a time when I took shahada, when I became Muslim. And that was on the way to making Hajj, goin"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5862646", "date": "2026-06-19", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering South African-born pianist and composer Abdullah Ibrahim", "question_index": 4, "text": "How does that sound to you listening back to it - the electric piano?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5862646", "date": "2026-06-19", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering South African-born pianist and composer Abdullah Ibrahim", "question_index": 5, "text": "That's interesting. When you left South Africa, you met Duke Ellington, and he was very helpful for you. In fact, I think he was responsible for your first recording outside of South Africa.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sounds good. But the reason for doing the reason for doing that was because we needed to take the music out to the people, I mean, live. And sometimes it was problematic to have an acoustic piano, let"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5862646", "date": "2026-06-19", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering South African-born pianist and composer Abdullah Ibrahim", "question_index": 6, "text": "I think your music still sounds very influenced by Ellington. Do you feel that way?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5862646", "date": "2026-06-19", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering South African-born pianist and composer Abdullah Ibrahim", "question_index": 7, "text": "Who would want to?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "How can we escape Ellington?"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5862646", "date": "2026-06-19", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering South African-born pianist and composer Abdullah Ibrahim", "question_index": 8, "text": "When you are holding a rehearsal with your musicians, and you're teaching them or giving them a new piece of yours, how do they learn it? Do you give them music? I mean, do you write it down for them? Do you sing it to them, play it for them? What do you do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. Exactly. Even if people want to deny it, there's no way - and not - I'm not - we do not just mean jazz musicians, but contemporary 20th century music anyway and anywhere that it is played, ho"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5862646", "date": "2026-06-19", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering South African-born pianist and composer Abdullah Ibrahim", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the musicians have a saying when you say, we're going to have rehearsals and they say, where's the paper? Because I asked them to notate the basic skeleton of the piece first. So what I would do"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5862646", "date": "2026-06-19", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering South African-born pianist and composer Abdullah Ibrahim", "question_index": 10, "text": "Oh, really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I just come into the studio and start playing, even while they are busy setting up and talking about fried chicken they had or where they visited the night before. And whoever hears it first will "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5862646", "date": "2026-06-19", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering South African-born pianist and composer Abdullah Ibrahim", "question_index": 11, "text": "So what do you mean it's built around them? Like the - they'll get the first solo? Or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5862646", "date": "2026-06-19", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering South African-born pianist and composer Abdullah Ibrahim", "question_index": 12, "text": "Oh, I see.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, not the first solo, but perhaps the lead."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5862646", "date": "2026-06-19", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering South African-born pianist and composer Abdullah Ibrahim", "question_index": 13, "text": "What a really nice interaction. I guess, also, it makes - it's kind of something of an incentive to make sure people pick up on it really quickly", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5862646", "date": "2026-06-19", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering South African-born pianist and composer Abdullah Ibrahim", "question_index": 14, "text": "'cause then they'll be more prominent.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5862646", "date": "2026-06-19", "guest": "Kevin Whitehead", "title": "Remembering South African-born pianist and composer Abdullah Ibrahim", "question_index": 15, "text": "Abdullah Ibrahim, I thank you so much for speaking with us.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, because the idea is really not to write notes and give it to people to play. It's the other way around. And that's why the so-called jazz music is so precious. It is so precious. It's perhaps th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5868665", "date": "2026-06-24", "guest": "Helen Lewis", "title": "Understanding 'masculinism,' a movement to restore the primacy of men", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Repeal the 19th Amendment, which gave women the right to vote, and then let the man of the house vote for the household. If you think that anyone who advocates for that is too fringe to be taken seriously, think again. It's the view of Christian nationalist Douglas Wilson, the pastor who co-founded CREC, the Communion of Reformed Evangelical Churches. CREC has a network of about 170 churches, including the one Secretary of Defense - or Secretary of War - Pete Hegseth belongs to. Wilson was the guest pastor in February at the Pentagon's recently created monthly Christian prayer service. Hegseth prayed beside him. CREC also has a network of Christian schools, and Hegseth's children attended one of them. Wilson is influential in the growing movement that's sometimes called masculinism, which believes feminism has been emasculating men, men should have more power than women and that a woman's place is at home raising children and following her husband's wishes. My guest, Helen Lewis, writes about masculinism in her Atlantic article titled \"The Men Who Want Women To Be Quiet.\" It's subtitled \"A Virulent Form Of Misogyny Has Become The Single Most Important Force Holding Together The American Right.\" Wilson is one of the people she interviewed for the article. Lewis is a staff writer at The Atlantic with a focus on the intersection of politics, society and digital culture. She is also the author of \"Difficult Women: A History Of Feminism In 11 Fights,\" and \"The Genius Myth: A Curious History Of A Dangerous Idea.\" Helen Lewis, welcome to FRESH AIR. So before we get to Pete Hegseth and Douglas Wilson, what is masculinism, and how does it compare to regular old misogyny, patriarchy?", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5868665", "date": "2026-06-24", "guest": "Helen Lewis", "title": "Understanding 'masculinism,' a movement to restore the primacy of men", "question_index": 1, "text": "When you say it's a political ideology, what do you mean?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, masculinism is a word that has been around for quite a long time now. It's the idea, essentially, that men should be in charge. That that's the way that the world should be ordered, that you get"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5868665", "date": "2026-06-24", "guest": "Helen Lewis", "title": "Understanding 'masculinism,' a movement to restore the primacy of men", "question_index": 2, "text": "So what's on the political agenda?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "In the sense that there is a set of governing ideas and then a series of kind of policy proposals that flow from them. In the same way that you might see this is the kind of flip side of feminism. So "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5868665", "date": "2026-06-24", "guest": "Helen Lewis", "title": "Understanding 'masculinism,' a movement to restore the primacy of men", "question_index": 3, "text": "You know what? I'm going to stop you right there. Why don't we hear Douglas Wilson say it in his own words?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You mentioned there at the start repealing the 19th Amendment. That's the one that gave women the right to vote. And that sounds, I'm sure to some of your listeners, like the craziest, completely sett"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5868665", "date": "2026-06-24", "guest": "Helen Lewis", "title": "Understanding 'masculinism,' a movement to restore the primacy of men", "question_index": 4, "text": "'Cause this is him talking about why we should repeal the 19th Amendment.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Sure."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5868665", "date": "2026-06-24", "guest": "Helen Lewis", "title": "Understanding 'masculinism,' a movement to restore the primacy of men", "question_index": 5, "text": "Can I just ask you, Is it just me, or can you actually follow his train of thought?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Back in the bad old days before the 19th Amendment, the men were considered to be the heads of their households and represented their families at the ballot box. So what happened when their wives were"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5868665", "date": "2026-06-24", "guest": "Helen Lewis", "title": "Understanding 'masculinism,' a movement to restore the primacy of men", "question_index": 6, "text": "But there's all these little questions, like, say you have two adult children living with their parents, one is male, one is female. Does the male not get to vote, even though he's a man, because the father is the head of the household?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "How do I put this, he is quite a prolix speaker. His sentences roll on. But you can see there the outlines of the argument, which is essentially that the family is the unit of society, not the individ"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5868665", "date": "2026-06-24", "guest": "Helen Lewis", "title": "Understanding 'masculinism,' a movement to restore the primacy of men", "question_index": 7, "text": "So getting back to how masculinism has become a political ideology, what else is on the agenda? And I should point out here that Douglas Wilson says that although he'd like to repeal the 19th Amendment, like, maybe in 200 years 'cause he has bigger fish to fry. So what are the bigger fish that he has to fry that are also on the larger masculinism political agenda?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, I did try and ask Joel Webbon, who's a hard-right pastor, who is based in Austin, you know, how you would work through this. So in his view, unmarried women would also get voted for by a fathe"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5868665", "date": "2026-06-24", "guest": "Helen Lewis", "title": "Understanding 'masculinism,' a movement to restore the primacy of men", "question_index": 8, "text": "Well, we need to take a break here. So let me reintroduce you. My guest is Helen Lewis. We're talking about her article in The Atlantic called \"The Men Who Want Women To Be Quiet.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I know. When he said that to me, I said, the thing is, you know, if I said to you, I want all white men to be put in cages, but not now. It's not my aspiration for now. Can I also interest you m"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5868665", "date": "2026-06-24", "guest": "Helen Lewis", "title": "Understanding 'masculinism,' a movement to restore the primacy of men", "question_index": 9, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Helen Lewis, a staff writer at The Atlantic. We're talking about her article about the new masculinism titled \"The Men Who Want Women To Be Quiet.\" It's subtitled \"A Virulent Form Of Misogyny Has Become The Single Most Important Force Holding Together The American Right.\" So you describe masculinism as the single most important force uniting the American right, bringing together an unlikely constellation of pastors, senators, preachers, influencers, podcasters and fanboys. Why do you think it's the most important factor uniting the American right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I know. When he said that to me, I said, the thing is, you know, if I said to you, I want all white men to be put in cages, but not now. It's not my aspiration for now. Can I also interest you m"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5868665", "date": "2026-06-24", "guest": "Helen Lewis", "title": "Understanding 'masculinism,' a movement to restore the primacy of men", "question_index": 10, "text": "So let's get back to Douglas Wilson. As biblical as Douglas Wilson is, he's called women small-breasted biddies, which doesn't strike me as godly language. So the clip we're about to hear is Douglas Wilson speaking in the U.K. on a Times radio show in May of this year.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know, when I was writing this, I was thinking about, what are the linking strands between MAGA and the kind of loose constellation of influences around that? And it was just in the middle of a ver"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5868665", "date": "2026-06-24", "guest": "Helen Lewis", "title": "Understanding 'masculinism,' a movement to restore the primacy of men", "question_index": 11, "text": "So that was from a Times radio show in the U.K. recorded in May of this year. What do you hear when you listen to that? And what do small breasts have to do with anything?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "The woke scold."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5868665", "date": "2026-06-24", "guest": "Helen Lewis", "title": "Understanding 'masculinism,' a movement to restore the primacy of men", "question_index": 12, "text": "Do you think Wilson ever - well, you wouldn't know. You can't read his mind. But I wonder if Wilson ever realizes that calling certain women small-breasted biddies is so nonbiblical, and it's so adolescent. It's so unbecoming of somebody who considers himself a very important religious leader.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, a great question. But I think it's about the fact you're not conventionally feminine, right? That's the idea. And - but this is entirely woven into the critique of feminists as unfeminine and un"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5868665", "date": "2026-06-24", "guest": "Helen Lewis", "title": "Understanding 'masculinism,' a movement to restore the primacy of men", "question_index": 13, "text": "The fertility rate is a big thing with the masculinists. The fertility rate has been falling in the U.S. and in many countries. And there's many explanations for that, but the explanation among many masculinists is, like, blame women. They don't want to have children anymore, or they don't want to have as many children. Or they're going to work and they're not staying home, and therefore they're not having children. And I feel like, oh, women can't win 'cause if women want children, then a lot of men complain, oh, women. All they want to do is have children. I don't want to have children, or I don't want to have that many children. I don't want to be tied down like that. So, like, the pendulum with this movement is swinging toward, like, fertility. Stay home. Have lots of children. What do you see that as being about? Is that connected at all to the fear that white people will no longer be the majority population in a few decades?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I think American public life has just degraded on this front in the last decade, really - let's be honest - driven by Donald Trump. And his final triumph might be making Democrats talk like this, "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5868665", "date": "2026-06-24", "guest": "Helen Lewis", "title": "Understanding 'masculinism,' a movement to restore the primacy of men", "question_index": 14, "text": "And money.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, I mean, absolutely. I mean, somebody like, you know, Elon Musk has taken up, you know, a very true and upsetting story about grooming gangs in Britain. But the thesis behind it has been expanded i"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5868665", "date": "2026-06-24", "guest": "Helen Lewis", "title": "Understanding 'masculinism,' a movement to restore the primacy of men", "question_index": 15, "text": "It's so expensive to have children now.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You know..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5868665", "date": "2026-06-24", "guest": "Helen Lewis", "title": "Understanding 'masculinism,' a movement to restore the primacy of men", "question_index": 16, "text": "Well, it's time for another break, so let me reintroduce you. If you're just joining us, my guest is Helen Lewis, and we're talking about her article in The Atlantic titled \"The Men Who Want Women To Be Quiet.\" We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. But that's the thing. The average American dad is now spending as much time with their child as the average American mum was in the 1960s. You know, this is the most involved generation of fath"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5868665", "date": "2026-06-24", "guest": "Helen Lewis", "title": "Understanding 'masculinism,' a movement to restore the primacy of men", "question_index": 17, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Helen Lewis, a staff writer at The Atlantic. We're talking about her article about the new masculinism titled \"The Men Who Want Women To Be Quiet.\" It's subtitled \"A Virulent Form Of Misogyny Has Become The Single Most Important Force Holding Together The American Right.\" Lewis is also the author of the books \"Difficult Women: A History Of Feminism In 11 Fights\" and \"The Genius Myth: A Curious History Of A Dangerous Idea.\" You describe Nick Fuentes as Douglas Wilson's intellectual heir. Now, Fuentes is one of the more extreme podcast provocateurs. You describe Fuentes as a self-professed Christian, antisemite and virgin. Why do you mention virgin in there?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. But that's the thing. The average American dad is now spending as much time with their child as the average American mum was in the 1960s. You know, this is the most involved generation of fath"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5868665", "date": "2026-06-24", "guest": "Helen Lewis", "title": "Understanding 'masculinism,' a movement to restore the primacy of men", "question_index": 18, "text": "So let's hear Nick Fuentes from one of his podcasts. And in this, he's talking about the problem with women. And this is from his podcast \"America First With Nick Fuentes,\" and it was recorded on February 11 of this year.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because it's really interesting to me that he is not Doug Wilson's intellectual heir in the sense of a traditional Christian family. Like, he - what he's not preaching to his followers is settle down,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5868665", "date": "2026-06-24", "guest": "Helen Lewis", "title": "Understanding 'masculinism,' a movement to restore the primacy of men", "question_index": 19, "text": "Well...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Our No. 1 political enemy is women because women constrain everything - every conversation, every man, everything. They have to be imprisoned. They are the ones that are hurting the fertility rate. Th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5868665", "date": "2026-06-24", "guest": "Helen Lewis", "title": "Understanding 'masculinism,' a movement to restore the primacy of men", "question_index": 20, "text": "They're not racist enough.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's not subtle, is it? It's - he doesn't - he's not a man who's ever heard the word dog whistle. It just - gone straight to the whistle. The thing I find interesting about that is it doesn't surprise"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5868665", "date": "2026-06-24", "guest": "Helen Lewis", "title": "Understanding 'masculinism,' a movement to restore the primacy of men", "question_index": 21, "text": "You know, I think with somebody like Nick Fuentes, I always wonder, like, how much of it is about money and power? You know, like, it's a great way to get followers if you live on the extreme and can influence people to join you there or admire, like, your strong views. And how much does he, like, truly believe?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, in the case of Nick Fuentes, yes - that they just don't hate brown people, as he puts it. But, you know, there are respectable versions of this argument about empathy, too. So the entrepreneur P"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5868665", "date": "2026-06-24", "guest": "Helen Lewis", "title": "Understanding 'masculinism,' a movement to restore the primacy of men", "question_index": 22, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And that is almost a part of how I think about reporting on it, right? Because you're thinking these people are attention-seeking, and I'm giving them some attention. And that's not an uncomplicated t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5868665", "date": "2026-06-24", "guest": "Helen Lewis", "title": "Understanding 'masculinism,' a movement to restore the primacy of men", "question_index": 23, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And does exist."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5868665", "date": "2026-06-24", "guest": "Helen Lewis", "title": "Understanding 'masculinism,' a movement to restore the primacy of men", "question_index": 24, "text": "Or...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So I also think, as a - you know, if you're somebody who does believe in individual voting rights or liberalism, whatever it is, you kind of need to keep your..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5868665", "date": "2026-06-24", "guest": "Helen Lewis", "title": "Understanding 'masculinism,' a movement to restore the primacy of men", "question_index": 25, "text": "...Imprisoning women.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...You know..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5868665", "date": "2026-06-24", "guest": "Helen Lewis", "title": "Understanding 'masculinism,' a movement to restore the primacy of men", "question_index": 26, "text": "So again, you called Fuentes Douglas Wilson's intellectual heir, but Wilson doesn't like Fuentes' rhetoric about women. He says, the Bible says that a godly woman is a husband's crown. I've never seen a king talk about his crown the way Fuentes talks about women. Comparing women or wives to a crown, the bejeweled headpiece that announces who is king, isn't exactly the most humanizing description of women.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, but you are kind of somebody who does need to keep your debating weapons sharp. Those arguments are never really truly won in a way that I think, probably, you know, '90s liberals were a bit co"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5868665", "date": "2026-06-24", "guest": "Helen Lewis", "title": "Understanding 'masculinism,' a movement to restore the primacy of men", "question_index": 27, "text": "Well, we need to take a break here, so let me reintroduce you. My guest is Helen Lewis. We're talking about her article in The Atlantic called \"The Men Who Want Women To Be Quiet.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, but that is the distinction between them. You know, they both share that appetite for provocation and certain views. But, you know, Doug Wilson is presenting it as benevolent sexism. We know wh"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5868665", "date": "2026-06-24", "guest": "Helen Lewis", "title": "Understanding 'masculinism,' a movement to restore the primacy of men", "question_index": 28, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Helen Lewis, a staff writer at The Atlantic. We're talking about her article about the new masculinism titled \"The Men Who Want Women To Keep (ph) Quiet.\" So alongside this obsession with fertility, the masculinists also have an obsession with testosterone. Testosterone is the thing that sets apart men from women. Men have a lot of it. Women have a little of it. And it's become, like, the defining quality for some men of, like, what real manhood is. So can you talk a little bit about testosterone?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right, but that is the distinction between them. You know, they both share that appetite for provocation and certain views. But, you know, Doug Wilson is presenting it as benevolent sexism. We know wh"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5868665", "date": "2026-06-24", "guest": "Helen Lewis", "title": "Understanding 'masculinism,' a movement to restore the primacy of men", "question_index": 29, "text": "And testosterone was actually figuring into the Senate race in Texas, because James Talarico, who is the Democrat running for Senate against Republican Ken Paxton, is being called by some of his opponents Low-T Talarico. And low T stands for low testosterone. There's a lot of, like, low T commercials on cable news now, advertising testosterone replacement. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, this is a story with many strands, one of which it's now never been easier to get hold of testosterone replacement therapy. So just a huge number of people, you know, particularly in that \"Man"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5868665", "date": "2026-06-24", "guest": "Helen Lewis", "title": "Understanding 'masculinism,' a movement to restore the primacy of men", "question_index": 30, "text": "That's why they're against soy?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. Stephen Miller, the White House immigration czar, went on Fox News and said, He's Low-T Talarico. You know, he's the first transgender candidate for Senate. You know, if you cut him, he doesn't"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5868665", "date": "2026-06-24", "guest": "Helen Lewis", "title": "Understanding 'masculinism,' a movement to restore the primacy of men", "question_index": 31, "text": "She's divorcing him.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. There's a whole background, too, like, real men eat meat and are not vegans. So one of the things that was held against him was the fact that he said he wanted to have a kind of animal product-fr"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5868665", "date": "2026-06-24", "guest": "Helen Lewis", "title": "Understanding 'masculinism,' a movement to restore the primacy of men", "question_index": 32, "text": "So, you know, with Ken Paxton, in terms of being an alpha male and that these are, like, alpha male accusations, CNN did a timeline of 20 years of scandals for Ken Paxton. And those scandals include securities fraud charges, an FBI investigation of bribery and abuse of office. He was sued for firing whistleblowers. The state of Texas sued him for professional misconduct. The state House voted to impeach him in 2023. He was acquitted in the Senate. His wife filing for divorce on biblical grounds after years of publicly reported infidelity by her husband. So are those the things that are considered, like, the alpha male conduct?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She's divorcing him, but that is understood to be - that's man stuff. That's the kind of thing that men do when they're powerful. You know, these are alpha. You know, he - guess he's got some foibls b"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5868665", "date": "2026-06-24", "guest": "Helen Lewis", "title": "Understanding 'masculinism,' a movement to restore the primacy of men", "question_index": 33, "text": "So where do you see President Trump fitting into masculinism and how masculinists see Trump?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I think that's the thing. It's like, that is boys will be boys. I don't think we've ever stretched it to boys will embezzle before, but, you know, that's where we've got to. The fact that James "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5868665", "date": "2026-06-24", "guest": "Helen Lewis", "title": "Understanding 'masculinism,' a movement to restore the primacy of men", "question_index": 34, "text": "You point out something that I hadn't quite put together before, which is that, you know, Trump had a surprising number of women in important positions in his second term. And then he fired several of them - Tulsi Gabbard, Pam Bondi, Kristi Noem - and they were all replaced by men.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, they see him as, like, the ultimate bully and the ultimate patriarch, you know? Here is somebody who controls everything around them. And, you know, I'm - I see masculinism as quite an anxious i"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5868665", "date": "2026-06-24", "guest": "Helen Lewis", "title": "Understanding 'masculinism,' a movement to restore the primacy of men", "question_index": 35, "text": "And Linda McMahon has survived, too - secretary of education. And of course, she was, like, a co-founder with her husband of WWE - you know, the big wrestling franchise.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. I mean, in some cases, they were replaced briefly by Marco Rubio, who is the kind of universal solvent for the Trump administration's hardest problems. But yeah. It seems to me that it's quite h"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5868665", "date": "2026-06-24", "guest": "Helen Lewis", "title": "Understanding 'masculinism,' a movement to restore the primacy of men", "question_index": 36, "text": "Let me reintroduce you. We need to take another short break. My guest is Helen Lewis, and we're talking about her article in The Atlantic titled \"The Men Who Want Women To Be Quiet.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, she's in a fortunate position, really, because her belief is that the Department of Education shouldn't really exist. So when that's your kind of guiding principle, it's quite hard to fail, ri"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5868665", "date": "2026-06-24", "guest": "Helen Lewis", "title": "Understanding 'masculinism,' a movement to restore the primacy of men", "question_index": 37, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Helen Lewis, a staff writer at The Atlantic. We're talking about her article about the new masculinism titled \"The Men Who Want Women To Be Quiet.\" It's subtitled \"A Virulent Form Of Misogyny That's Become The Single Most Important Force Holding Together The American Right.\" Who are some of the people in Congress or in state or city-elected officials or influential writers or thinkers who are part of this masculinist movement?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I mean, she's in a fortunate position, really, because her belief is that the Department of Education shouldn't really exist. So when that's your kind of guiding principle, it's quite hard to fail, ri"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5868665", "date": "2026-06-24", "guest": "Helen Lewis", "title": "Understanding 'masculinism,' a movement to restore the primacy of men", "question_index": 38, "text": "So I want to mention Scott Yenor, whose name I didn't know, but you write about him. He worked with Florida Governor Ron DeSantis in rolling back DEI programs, and he recently became the chair of the Heritage Foundation's American Citizenship Initiative. And they published a report in January that called for a culture-wide Manhattan Project to promote family building. Can you say a little bit more about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Someone I would say who was very early to this is Senator Josh Hawley, who wrote a book about manhood a couple of years ago. You know, he spotted quite early on that there were lots of men in policy c"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5868665", "date": "2026-06-24", "guest": "Helen Lewis", "title": "Understanding 'masculinism,' a movement to restore the primacy of men", "question_index": 39, "text": "Now, I want to make it clear. You think that there are really concerning problems facing men and boys right now. And I'd like to end with you talking about some of those.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah, I think Scott Yenor is a really influential and interesting figure. He believes in the family wage, which I guess is the kind of workplace corollary to family voting. Essentially, you should be "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5868665", "date": "2026-06-24", "guest": "Helen Lewis", "title": "Understanding 'masculinism,' a movement to restore the primacy of men", "question_index": 40, "text": "I don't know how much social media you do, but what kind of reaction are you getting from the manosphere on this piece that you wrote?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think that's really - should be an important part of the conversation. You know, I've written about feminism and the - you know, the things that affect women throughout my career, but it is very imp"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5868665", "date": "2026-06-24", "guest": "Helen Lewis", "title": "Understanding 'masculinism,' a movement to restore the primacy of men", "question_index": 41, "text": "Well, Helen Lewis, thank you so much for talking with us, and thank you for your article.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think a mixture. I mean, I had some quite hostile responses, as you would expect. You know, there were people saying that, you know, I make the kind of classic face that all liberal women do when th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5868665", "date": "2026-06-24", "guest": "Helen Lewis", "title": "Understanding 'masculinism,' a movement to restore the primacy of men", "question_index": 42, "text": "Helen Lewis is a staff writer at The Atlantic, where her article, \"The Men Who Want Women To Be Quiet\" is published. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, our guest will be Anna Deavere Smith. She's known for writing and starring in shows about real people. She interviews them and portrays them with their actual words. Her new show is about her great-great-grandfather, a free Black man who reburied the Union dead at Gettysburg and prepared the ground for Lincoln's most famous speech. I hope you'll join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram - @nprfreshair. FRESH AIR's executive producer is Sam Briger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez-Wisler. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our co-host is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was really lovely. Thank you so much for asking me."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5872203", "date": "2026-06-26", "guest": "Jeff Conaway", "title": "Remembering James Burrows, a prolific director of modern comedy", "question_index": 0, "text": "So when you're directing a TV show, you're sometimes backstage and not looking at the action or at the monitor?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was an assistant stage manager or an assistant to the assistant on an ill-fated musical called \"Breakfast At Tiffany's,\" where I met Mary Tyler Moore. And Mary Tyler Moore and Richard Chamberlain we"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5872203", "date": "2026-06-26", "guest": "Jeff Conaway", "title": "Remembering James Burrows, a prolific director of modern comedy", "question_index": 1, "text": "So what made you realize that you wanted to switch from the stage to television?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, I don't - I never look at the monitor because it's about - the shows I do are in front of a live audience, so it's about the play. It's about what's happening there. I've been doing it long enou"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5872203", "date": "2026-06-26", "guest": "Jeff Conaway", "title": "Remembering James Burrows, a prolific director of modern comedy", "question_index": 2, "text": "So you got started directing MTM productions like \"The Bob Newhart Show,\" \"Mary Tyler Moore Show,\" \"Phyllis,\" yes?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "James Burrows speaking with Terry Gross in 2006. We'll hear more after a break. This is FRESH AIR. This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2006 interview with TV director James Burrows, who direc"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5872203", "date": "2026-06-26", "guest": "Jeff Conaway", "title": "Remembering James Burrows, a prolific director of modern comedy", "question_index": 3, "text": "Now, were you at first, like, understudying other directors? Or did they let you just go at it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5872203", "date": "2026-06-26", "guest": "Jeff Conaway", "title": "Remembering James Burrows, a prolific director of modern comedy", "question_index": 4, "text": "Do you remember that first show that you did?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the first thing you have to do is you have to learn the technical stuff. So they brought me out here, and you kind of have to observe. Being an observer is, you sit in the stands, and you watch "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5872203", "date": "2026-06-26", "guest": "Jeff Conaway", "title": "Remembering James Burrows, a prolific director of modern comedy", "question_index": 5, "text": "How did it go?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do. Vividly."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5872203", "date": "2026-06-26", "guest": "Jeff Conaway", "title": "Remembering James Burrows, a prolific director of modern comedy", "question_index": 6, "text": "What sticks out in your mind?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I do."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5872203", "date": "2026-06-26", "guest": "Jeff Conaway", "title": "Remembering James Burrows, a prolific director of modern comedy", "question_index": 7, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, my God. Well, we read the script. It was a show where Lou Grant moves into Rhoda's apartment. So he's living above Mary, which means that he - they work together and they live together, which wasn"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5872203", "date": "2026-06-26", "guest": "Jeff Conaway", "title": "Remembering James Burrows, a prolific director of modern comedy", "question_index": 8, "text": "Was the show as bad after it was shot as it was when you were doing the reading?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And it was literally just a - the show was awful. I mean, the initial reading, they made it better 'cause you would rewrite. The writers would rewrite all the time. And so I had to go down - back in t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5872203", "date": "2026-06-26", "guest": "Jeff Conaway", "title": "Remembering James Burrows, a prolific director of modern comedy", "question_index": 9, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was - it's a C-plus show. It's not a very good show. You know, I - in fact, the script after me won an Emmy. So I..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5872203", "date": "2026-06-26", "guest": "Jeff Conaway", "title": "Remembering James Burrows, a prolific director of modern comedy", "question_index": 10, "text": "OK. So you start off at MTM in television. And then you do \"Taxi.\" And about how many episodes would you estimate you did of \"Taxi?\"", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "By the luck of the draw, I got - I didn't get the Emmy show. I got an OK show. And it might've helped me because of the amount of work I had to do and the amount of talking and inspiring I had to do, "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5872203", "date": "2026-06-26", "guest": "Jeff Conaway", "title": "Remembering James Burrows, a prolific director of modern comedy", "question_index": 11, "text": "And you were there right from the beginning with \"Taxi,\" right?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think I did 75."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5872203", "date": "2026-06-26", "guest": "Jeff Conaway", "title": "Remembering James Burrows, a prolific director of modern comedy", "question_index": 12, "text": "Now, after \"Taxi,\" you left with a couple of the creators of \"Taxi,\" Glen Charles and Les Charles, and started \"Cheers.\" And on \"Cheers\" and on \"Taxi,\" you had a chance to direct characters from the very start and therefore to shape them, to help shape them through your direction, as opposed to inheriting characters on an already existing series. Can you talk a little bit about what it's like to actually create a character from scratch - a character that you hope will endure for years in a series?", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Dave Davies. We're remembering James Burrows, who was one of the most respected TV directors in the business. He directed over a thousand episodes of \"Cheers,\" \"Taxi,\" \"Friends,"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5872203", "date": "2026-06-26", "guest": "Jeff Conaway", "title": "Remembering James Burrows, a prolific director of modern comedy", "question_index": 13, "text": "Can I just stop you? That would be a terrible insult to a lot of people. If you said - there are a lot of TV people. If you said to them, you've just produced this brilliant radio show - you've just written a brilliant radio show - they would think that was a terrible insult 'cause they're working on television. And sometimes, when you say radio to television people, it's like saying, you don't know what you're doing. You're blind. You can hear, but you're blind.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, the first thing that has to happen, it has to be on the page. So I am very careful when I select scripts. And when we talked about - Glen, Les and I talked about doing \"Cheers,\" we spent two mon"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5872203", "date": "2026-06-26", "guest": "Jeff Conaway", "title": "Remembering James Burrows, a prolific director of modern comedy", "question_index": 14, "text": "Absolutely. Yeah, yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. If you watch that show, people cross occasionally. Norm comes into the bar, but you got to listen to that show. It's all about listening."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5872203", "date": "2026-06-26", "guest": "Jeff Conaway", "title": "Remembering James Burrows, a prolific director of modern comedy", "question_index": 15, "text": "Now, \"Cheers\" was shot in front of a live audience. Do the laughs help the actors, and does it ever work against the show? In other words, like - 'cause the actors can't, like, pick up and say the next line until the laughs fade. And of course, the audience at home isn't in the studio audience. So the timing - do you think the timing when you're watching at home is any different than the timing when you're in the theater?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And there's no eye candy in that show. There's no - I'll never forget. Originally, the boys in the first draft had some kind of hurdle race in there that we took out. But it was. They came in. They sa"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5872203", "date": "2026-06-26", "guest": "Jeff Conaway", "title": "Remembering James Burrows, a prolific director of modern comedy", "question_index": 16, "text": "OK. Well, say you had to back up because they were unheard, or say you want another take because it didn't work, what happens when the audience is hearing the joke the second time, and their laughter is not going to be the same the second time around? They've already heard the joke. They've already laughed at it.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, laughter is communal, so it really helps to have an audience because movies are so much better. I try to go see comedies in a theater rather than try to watch them at home in the movies because "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5872203", "date": "2026-06-26", "guest": "Jeff Conaway", "title": "Remembering James Burrows, a prolific director of modern comedy", "question_index": 17, "text": "So do you ever use the laughter from one take and roll it for a second take?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But you're - yeah, they've laughed at that joke, but then you go the second time so that you can get the reaction of the other person to that joke. And then you can hear the other line from the person"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5872203", "date": "2026-06-26", "guest": "Jeff Conaway", "title": "Remembering James Burrows, a prolific director of modern comedy", "question_index": 18, "text": "Right, right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "So yeah. You use - you - when you cross takes, you'll take the laughter from the first take and play it over the reaction in the second take."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5872203", "date": "2026-06-26", "guest": "Jeff Conaway", "title": "Remembering James Burrows, a prolific director of modern comedy", "question_index": 19, "text": "Really?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "You have to do that, otherwise you couldn't make sense of the show or people saying lines into laughs. You have to hear every line. So we didn't do that a lot. Back in the \"Cheers\" days, we only ran t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5872203", "date": "2026-06-26", "guest": "Jeff Conaway", "title": "Remembering James Burrows, a prolific director of modern comedy", "question_index": 20, "text": "So the audience gets to hear - gets to see two different versions of the scene?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5872203", "date": "2026-06-26", "guest": "Jeff Conaway", "title": "Remembering James Burrows, a prolific director of modern comedy", "question_index": 21, "text": "Is that typical that the writers are on the set? Typical for you, maybe.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. It - if you're going to do a scene twice, it really helps to change the jokes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5872203", "date": "2026-06-26", "guest": "Jeff Conaway", "title": "Remembering James Burrows, a prolific director of modern comedy", "question_index": 22, "text": "Is it typical for other shows?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5872203", "date": "2026-06-26", "guest": "Jeff Conaway", "title": "Remembering James Burrows, a prolific director of modern comedy", "question_index": 23, "text": "Now, you know, we were talking about \"Cheers.\" And, of course, after \"Cheers,\" you worked on the spin-off \"Frasier\" and you directed...", "prev_speaker": "HOST", "prev_text_excerpt": "This is FRESH AIR, and we're listening to Terry's 2006 interview with TV director James Burrows, who directed over a thousand episodes of \"Cheers,\" \"Taxi,\" \"Friends,\" \"Frasier\" and other sitcoms. He d"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5872203", "date": "2026-06-26", "guest": "Jeff Conaway", "title": "Remembering James Burrows, a prolific director of modern comedy", "question_index": 24, "text": "...Lots of episodes of that. You were there right at the start. Why was Frasier the character that you all decided to spin off?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5872203", "date": "2026-06-26", "guest": "Jeff Conaway", "title": "Remembering James Burrows, a prolific director of modern comedy", "question_index": 25, "text": "I want to play a short scene from the pilot which you directed of \"Frasier.\" And this is a scene from early in the episode. Niles and Frasier are at a coffee shop, and Niles is suggesting it's time to find a convalescent home for their father to live in.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We didn't. I did not spin him off. David Angell, Peter Casey and David Lee, who were the producers of \"Cheers\" for years, had talked to Kelsey about doing a spin-off. So they wrote the script. And the"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5872203", "date": "2026-06-26", "guest": "Jeff Conaway", "title": "Remembering James Burrows, a prolific director of modern comedy", "question_index": 26, "text": "It's a scene from the pilot of \"Frasier\" directed by my guest James Burrows. And, you know, great scene, great series. One of the things that's really interesting to me about that scene and about, like, you know, the early \"Frasier\" is that Niles sounds completely different than he did later on. He is not talking with that, you know, kind of effete clipped style of speech that he develops later in the series.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(As Niles Crane) I'll have a large piece of cheesecake."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5872203", "date": "2026-06-26", "guest": "Jeff Conaway", "title": "Remembering James Burrows, a prolific director of modern comedy", "question_index": 27, "text": "Now, you know, a lot of people thought that Niles and Frasier were really two gay men cast as brothers. Do you know what I mean? That the brothers was just a cover that these were - this is a story about really two gay guys. Did you feel that way when you were directing it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did not notice that. I always thought that he was - there was no other word to describe Niles than a feat for me because he was a personification of Frasier, and Frasier was certainly a feat on \"Che"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5872203", "date": "2026-06-26", "guest": "Jeff Conaway", "title": "Remembering James Burrows, a prolific director of modern comedy", "question_index": 28, "text": "OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Oh, yeah. It's a husband and wife, those two."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5872203", "date": "2026-06-26", "guest": "Jeff Conaway", "title": "Remembering James Burrows, a prolific director of modern comedy", "question_index": 29, "text": "Now, on \"Will & Grace,\" there really is a gay character, and it was among the first, really popular gay regular characters in - on sitcoms and on broadcast. Were there issues about how broad to make the character, and, you know, how the character should be depicted?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "They are. They're a couple. They're a couple. And it's great. I never thought gay as much as a married couple. They talk like a married couple, a snobbish married couple, an effete married couple. So "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5872203", "date": "2026-06-26", "guest": "Jeff Conaway", "title": "Remembering James Burrows, a prolific director of modern comedy", "question_index": 30, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, you know, the genius of that show is the script, is that Max and David wrote a script where there's a love affair between a woman and a man that can't be consummated. So the dialogue is brillian"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5872203", "date": "2026-06-26", "guest": "Jeff Conaway", "title": "Remembering James Burrows, a prolific director of modern comedy", "question_index": 31, "text": "So are you really glad you've been able to have a career in TV?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "...And if they - if we let them think that they'll get together, that they maybe tune in to watch the show because they've heard how funny it was. And then once they're in there and see how funny it i"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5872203", "date": "2026-06-26", "guest": "Jeff Conaway", "title": "Remembering James Burrows, a prolific director of modern comedy", "question_index": 32, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I've been blessed. I did - in 1981, I tried a movie. I - if I had tried it in '91, the movie probably been more successful because I would have had much more self-esteem than I had in '81. This is bef"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5872203", "date": "2026-06-26", "guest": "Jeff Conaway", "title": "Remembering James Burrows, a prolific director of modern comedy", "question_index": 33, "text": "Well, James Burrows, thank you so much for talking with us. Thank you so much for all of the great programs that you've given us. Thank you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And I love laughing. I love to hear the laughter. I've done - I've been lucky enough to be associated with some extraordinary shows and shows that may not be as extraordinary, but were so wonderful, l"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 0, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. One of the successful British invasion bands of the '60s was the duo Peter and Gordon. Peter is my guest, Peter Asher, who later became a famous record producer. The first record Peter and Gordon released became a No. 1 hit in England and the U.S. That song, \"A World Without Love,\" was written by Paul McCartney for the Beatles. But John Lennon didn't like it, so Paul put it away until Peter asked to record it. Paul had been living in the Asher family home where Peter, his sisters and his parents lived. We'll hear why a little later. It's a great story. So here's \"A World Without Love\" from 1964.", "prev_speaker": null, "prev_text_excerpt": null}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 1, "text": "Peter and Gordon went on to have other hits including \"Nobody I Know,\" \"I Don't Want To See You Again,\" and \"I Go To Pieces.\" After the duo split up, in 1968, Peter became the first A&R man at the Beatles' new Apple record label. The first person he signed was James Taylor, who had never recorded before. Peter didn't stay long at Apple. He moved to LA, produced and managed Taylor and helped turn him into a star. He introduced Taylor to Carole King and launched King's performing career. He produced and managed Linda Ronstadt. Other artists he produced over the years include Randy Newman, Cher, Neil Diamond, Morrissey, Diana Ross, Elton John, Bonnie Raitt, Barbra Streisand, Robin Williams and Steve Martin. Wow, that's really a phenomenal list. Peter Asher is part of other important moments in music history. Peter co-owned the gallery where John first met Yoko while her work was on exhibit there. Peter was unintentionally responsible for Mick Jagger meeting Marianne Faithfull, which began their romance. In addition to the many Grammys his artists won, he won three producing Grammys, and in 1977, was on the cover of Rolling Stone. A new documentary chronicles Peter Asher's life. It's called \"Peter Asher: Everywhere Man.\" It's playing in select theaters around the country. Peter Asher, welcome to FRESH AIR. I really like this documentary. You've had such an interesting life. So let's start with \"World Without Love.\" Did Paul ever explain why John rejected it?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Please, lock me away. And don't allow the day here inside where I hide with my loneliness. I don't care what they say. I won't stay in a world without love. Birds sing out of tune and rain c"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 2, "text": "Oh, that's right. You say he wrote it when he was 16.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think it was the lyrics. First of all, I think - I don't think it's quite true to say that Paul wrote it for the Beatles. I think he wrote it pre-Beatles, actually."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 3, "text": "Right.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I recollect he was like 16 or something like that."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 4, "text": "So it's copyrighted to Lennon-McCartney.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Which is extraordinary. And I think what John didn't like about it was the lyrics, that he thought that please lock me away was an absurd line to put in a song. And so he would actually say to Paul, O"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 5, "text": "Yes, I know. And Paul told me, one of the times I interviewed him, that he regrets having the Beatles songs that Paul or John wrote independently credited to both of them, especially because even if Paul wrote a song himself, the credit started with Lennon, Lennon-McCartney.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Everything was."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 6, "text": "So since you were talking about them writing songs together, let's hear a clip from the documentary. And this is a part where Paul is talking about living with your family and what that was like. And it leads into writing with John Lennon at your home. And in the second part of this clip, we'll hear you.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I'm not that sure I agree with Paul about that. I think it was something particularly charming and emphasized the closeness of their relationship that they agreed to credit everything to the two of th"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 7, "text": "Peter Asher, your reaction was what when you heard the song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "There was a little music room in the basement. And I do remember one particular occasion shortly after Paul had moved in. John came over, and he and Paul went down to this music room. They were down t"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 8, "text": "So Paul was living with your family because your sister, Jane Asher, was a famous actress by then.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Amazement. I mean, I thought, am I losing my mind, or is this one of the best songs I've ever heard in my life? Or possibly both. But I was thrilled and amazed. And they looked at me for some kind of "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 9, "text": "And Paul was her boyfriend.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 10, "text": "The Beatles had a home in London for when they were there, but Paul found it too chaotic. He must've moved in very early in the Beatles' career because if he and John hadn't yet written \"I Want To Hold Your Hand,\" that had to be pretty early.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 11, "text": "So watching Paul's fame, what did it teach you about what it means to be famous? Because you were on the verge of becoming famous yourself.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's a good point. Yes, that's correct. I'm very bad at dates, as I told you. But, yes, that certainly would be true."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 12, "text": "Did you always feel lucky that girls were chasing after the band and that they were screaming, probably so loud they couldn't actually hear the music that you were playing, and you might not have been able to hear?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a good question. I don't really know I learned anything about becoming famous. And certainly, nobody was famous in a way that compared to the Beatles in any sense. But certainly, when we got to A"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 13, "text": "Gordon when you were singing with him on stage. So, like...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's a good question. I don't really know I learned anything about becoming famous. And certainly, nobody was famous in a way that compared to the Beatles in any sense. But certainly, when we got to A"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 14, "text": "Oh, you had no monitors?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, that was very annoying. That was true. I mean, it was certainly one of the downsides of the technology of that era. Monitors hadn't been invented yet at all."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 15, "text": "It must have been strange for you from, you know, going to a guy who was playing, you know, like, small clubs...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No monitors at all, let alone the fancy in-ears that we all have today, so we couldn't hear ourselves at all. I mean, Ringo, I remember, did an interview explaining that he knew where he was on the so"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 16, "text": "...To suddenly having a No. 1 record, touring America, getting on \"The Ed Sullivan Show.\" It's, like, an extreme jump.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 17, "text": "Did it change your self-image to have women chasing after you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think this is better. So I made the decision to quit university, of course, and take up this pop stuff full time."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 18, "text": "So you loved American jazz, folk music, rock 'n' roll.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No, but it's fun, that's for sure. I don't think it - I don't know it changed my self-image. Did I suddenly feel suave and grown-up and manly? I don't think so. I think my insecurities remained intact"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 19, "text": "And suddenly, you go - I mean, you go to America and everybody's really, really absorbed in the British invasion. Americans were in love with British bands. Was that incomprehensible to you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 20, "text": "I want to mention another connection between your family and the Beatles, which is your mother was a professional oboe player. She performed with symphonies and taught oboe at the Royal Academy of Music, also taught private lessons, and one of her private students was George Martin, who later became the Beatles' producer. I don't think he was producing them yet. Am I right about that?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It was a surprise. I mean, because that's the whole miracle of the British invasion. We loved all this music - you know, as you said, folk music and jazz. And I was a big jazz fan. And it just was ext"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 21, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's right, yeah. I don't think so, no. I think that's correct. Yeah, it was an extraordinary coincidence. So by the time my mother was introduced to George Martin as her daughter's boyfriend's reco"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 22, "text": "Let's talk about your very first career", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She had given him private lessons to - 'cause he was concerned about passing his exams at the Guildhall School of Music, and he had to - oboe was his second instrument, and he required some further tr"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 23, "text": ", which was as a child actor. And, as I think we mentioned earlier, you were in a film with Claudette Colbert, you had a part in the TV series \"The Adventures Of Robin Hood,\" which I used to watch, and you were in a TV series with Boris Karloff - episodes, or an episode. So what was the experience for you, being, like, I think, 8 during part of this? And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "She had given him private lessons to - 'cause he was concerned about passing his exams at the Guildhall School of Music, and he had to - oboe was his second instrument, and he required some further tr"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 24, "text": "Yes. So what was the experience like for you? Did you feel like, this is exciting, I'm getting to meet movie stars, or did you just...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was 8 when it started. I did my first film, \"The Planter's Wife,\" with Claudette Colbert and Jack Hawkins when I was 8, yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 25, "text": "Oh, OK.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 26, "text": "What was it like seeing yourself onscreen? Did you go to a movie theater and see yourself?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "But I enjoyed acting, too. I mean, I was - I enjoyed the work. But it's all very standard. You read the script, learn your lines, and do what the director wants you to do and hope that it was good."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 27, "text": "Did it make you any more or less comfortable with yourself in terms of how you looked? Did it make you self-conscious?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. We used to go and see rushes quite often in the evening, you know, and see what you'd shot that very day, or the day before, perhaps, 'cause they had to develop the film, I suppose."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 28, "text": "Did your mother feel comfortable with you as a performer, since she was a performer, too? She played oboe.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't know. I don't think I felt very self-conscious at that point, no."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 29, "text": "Those were your two sisters? Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes, she was surprisingly cool with it. I mean, all three of us got signed - Jane and Clare and I. And we all did bits..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 30, "text": "And had a career.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "My two sisters and I. And we did bits of acting. The only thing we did together was Jane and I did one of those episodes of \"Robin Hood\" that you mentioned. We played in - there was one called \"Childr"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 31, "text": "I mean, part of the reason why you became an actor is that you and your two sisters had red hair. So you all had red hair.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And built a very fine acting career which persists to this day."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 32, "text": "But...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "That's the reason we got signed. Yeah. Some agent spotted us and said, oh, they're - you know, they're very picturesque or something."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 33, "text": "Yeah.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 34, "text": "But most of the stuff you were in was probably black and white", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 35, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 36, "text": "Well, let's take a break here. My guest is Peter Asher. The new documentary about him is called \"Everywhere Man.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And we were never all three of us in something together. That's why, if you look at the casting directory of that era, it has to say in the black and white - alongside the black and white photogr"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 37, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Peter Asher. Americans first knew him as half of the '60s British invasion band Peter and Gordon. Their hits included \"A World Without Love,\" \"Nobody I Know\" and \"I Go To Pieces.\" Asher went on to become a Grammy-winning record producer. His two most enduring music relationships were with James Taylor and Linda Ronstadt. So let's get back to you touring. So when you first got to America, what struck you as musically most different about the U.S. versus England?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. And we were never all three of us in something together. That's why, if you look at the casting directory of that era, it has to say in the black and white - alongside the black and white photogr"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 38, "text": "In the '60s, while you were performing and recording with Gordon, your singing partner, you also became the co-owner of a bookstore and an art gallery that were...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Everything was different. The radio stations were completely different. You know, we only had the BBC. You had all these brilliant little stations where the DJ actually played the records himself, whi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 39, "text": "...Part of London's underground culture of the time. Describe what was new about the clothes, the music and the sense of liberation after growing up during the period England was rebuilding and suffering food shortages after World War II.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 40, "text": "And what year were you born?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Absolutely. Well, rationing - people are amazed to realize that rationing didn't end till 1956, the last item - whatever was the last thing that was still rationed."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 41, "text": "So how did you change during that period?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "'44. So, you know, yes, it was a big change. And I think that is part of it 'cause the - Britain, as we grew up, was - everything was rationed. Everything was gray and standardized, and there were sho"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 42, "text": "And smoked dope.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I wore silly clothes and dressed up and..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 43, "text": "So the gallery that you co-owned is where John and Yoko met...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "And smoked dope and had fun. It was that era in the '50s where you sort of tried to look like a grown-up, you know? And then by the time we got to the '60s, you wanted to avoid desperately looking lik"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 44, "text": "...During a period when the gallery was exhibiting her work. Were you there when they met?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 45, "text": "So the gallery...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I was there when John showed up, but I can't remember. I wasn't actually the person who introduced them or anything. But John came in his Mini Cooper with a chauffeur. And yeah. I mean, I - it was Joh"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 46, "text": "But that gallery was the place that the whole controversy started about whether Yoko broke up the Beatles.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Even though sometimes I get blamed for it in that context."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 47, "text": "Not your fault. You are absolved.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, exactly. I mean, it was - it's funny because I tell the story as part of my stage show, which is a bit half stories, half music. When I tell that story, it gets such wildly different reactions a"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 48, "text": "So I think this is a good time to take another break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Peter Asher, and the new documentary about him is called \"Everywhere Man.\" We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Not my fault. Exactly. Exactly, so."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 49, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. Let's get back to my interview with Peter Asher. Americans first knew him as half of the '60s British invasion band Peter and Gordon. Their hits included \"A World Without Love,\" \"Nobody I Know\" and \"I Go To Pieces.\" Asher went on to become a Grammy-winning record producer. His two most enduring music relationships were with James Taylor and Linda Ronstadt. So in terms of your music life, you went through a transitional time in the late '60s. Gordon Waller, your singing partner, decided he wanted to go solo.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) When I see her coming down the stream, I get so shaky, and I feel so weak. I tell my eyes, look the other way. But they don't seem to hear a word I say. And I go to pieces, and I want to hid"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 50, "text": "And you knew that you wanted to produce recordings.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 51, "text": "Before you had produced any record, you became the first A&R man for the Beatles' new Apple record label.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I did. I - the minute I went into the recording studio and figured out what producers did, I thought, this would be so cool. You know, I loved the idea of being able to influence the arrangement and m"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 52, "text": "A&R stands for artists and repertoire. Describe what your job was.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 53, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, Apple took this very bold step of actually soliciting tapes. Because normally, there's - no unsolicited material was supposed to be sent in to most major record companies. But we actually took a"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 54, "text": "Why did the label go through that route?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "We got giant mailbags full of tapes. And the sad thing was, they mostly were not any good. And not just that. It'd be weird stuff, like somebody sends in a hundred pages of lyrics that they know John "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 55, "text": "Well, the first person you signed was James Taylor, and you did not...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Because it was the spirit of Apple, I think - the idea that, you know, we are the first label who's going to really pay attention to artists and take them seriously. 'Cause everyone had experience of "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 56, "text": "...Find him in the slush pile.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 57, "text": "How did you find him?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 58, "text": "What was your vision for him? What did you encourage him to do?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, when Gordon and I played America, we were supplied backup bands kind of locally. There'd be some promoter in, say, the Midwest or something would find a band to back you up and usually would jus"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 59, "text": "Yeah. You left with James Taylor for the U.S...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Just keep writing some great songs 'cause I loved his songs. And then we started talking about the kind of record we should make. And that's when I decided that on this particular album - on the Apple"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 60, "text": "...Which is where you recorded his second album.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 61, "text": "And you left Apple for good. You hadn't stayed at Apple very long when you...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Correct."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 62, "text": "Why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "No. I would have got - if I hadn't left, by the way, I would have got fired 'cause Allen Klein came in."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 63, "text": "Well, let's take a break here. My guest is Peter Asher. The new documentary about him is called \"Everywhere Man.\" We'll be right back. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, because Allen Klein was coming in and firing everybody. I could see the writing on the wall, so I wrote Allen a letter of resignation. But he was in charge of Apple overall at the time, you know"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 64, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Peter Asher. Americans first knew him as half of the '60s British invasion band Peter and Gordon. Their hits included \"A World Without Love,\" \"Nobody I Know\" and \"I Go to Pieces.\" Asher went on to become a Grammy-winning record producer. His two most enduring music relationships were with James Taylor and Linda Ronstadt. So let's get back to talking about James Taylor. You recorded your second album with him in the U.S. He was going through, at various times - he had a heroin habit. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, because Allen Klein was coming in and firing everybody. I could see the writing on the wall, so I wrote Allen a letter of resignation. But he was in charge of Apple overall at the time, you know"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 65, "text": "You probably don't want to dwell on this, but I would like to ask you if it interfered either with his music or with your relationship.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 66, "text": "One of my favorite James Taylor recordings is \"Fire And Rain\" from his second album, \"Sweet Baby James,\" which, of course, you produced. And it's a song about a friend who died by suicide. Did he tell you the story behind the song?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It interfered with his music a lot. I mean, it - I think it takes up some of - quite a bit of your attention, you know, being a junkie, 'cause it's quite a complicated process. And you have to keep fi"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 67, "text": "So I want to play \"Fire And Rain,\" which was recorded in 1970. And I want our listeners to know that it's Carole King on piano. And...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "A little bit. I mean, he's told it publicly. I mean, Suzanne was a - some - a friend who had killed herself, and I think people didn't want to tell him or something. So there was some delay in him act"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 68, "text": "After we hear this, you can explain why and how you got her to play.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 69, "text": "OK. So how did you get Carole King to play piano on that, and why?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Just yesterday morning, they let me know you were gone. Suzanne, the plans they made put an end to you. I walked out this morning, and I wrote down this song. I just can't remember who to se"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 70, "text": "And that's how Carole King and James Taylor became friends and collaborators.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, actually, Danny Kortchmar is the - is a key figure yet again in this story because when I came out to LA, I wanted to put together a little band to play on the whole track. And I - 'cause I want"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 71, "text": "And he recorded her song \"You've Got A Friend\" before she did. So...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Exactly so."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 72, "text": "Did she have any problem to - I mean, she would get composer royalties, so it would work in her favor in that respect. But, I mean, it could have taken away from her own recording.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Barely. Yeah. They were almost the same time."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 73, "text": "Yes, I think you were required to own a copy of that album.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes. Exactly. No, it was an act of great generosity. What actually happened was kind of interesting. When James was playing the Troubadour in Los Angeles after \"Sweet Baby James\" was a big hit, I pers"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 74, "text": "Everybody I knew had a copy. So since you produced the James Taylor version, why don't we hear that? Do you want to say anything about the production?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 75, "text": "OK, this is James Taylor, \"You've Got A Friend,\" produced by my guest, Peter Asher.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "It's quite minimal. Carole didn't actually play on our version. It's basically James and Danny Kortchmar on a couple of acoustic guitars and Russ Kunkel playing congas, I think, largely. I think I may"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 76, "text": "So that was James Taylor, and that recording was produced by my guest Peter Asher. There's a new documentary about him called \"Everywhere Man.\" We'll be right back after a short break. This is FRESH AIR.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) When you're down and troubled and you need a helping hand and nothing, oh, nothing is going right, close your eyes and think of me, and soon I will be there to brighten up even your darkest "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 77, "text": "This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to my interview with Peter Asher. Americans first knew him as half of the '60s British invasion band Peter and Gordon. Their hits included \"A World Without Love,\" \"Nobody I Know\" and \"I Go To Pieces.\" Asher went on to become a Grammy award-winning record producer, and he worked extensively with James Taylor and Linda Ronstadt. Let's talk about your recordings with - and your relationship with Linda Ronstadt. You were recommended by a friend to go hear her. Now, she was already pretty famous 'cause she had recorded and performed with the band Stone Poneys.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) When you're down and troubled and you need a helping hand and nothing, oh, nothing is going right, close your eyes and think of me, and soon I will be there to brighten up even your darkest "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 78, "text": "So people knew who she was. But the band had broken up, and she was kind of - where was she in her career at this point, when you heard her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 79, "text": "Now, I understand why you were excited about her. Why was she willing to sign with you?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I don't remember exactly. I suppose, you know, \"Different Drum\" was a hit, and \"Long Long Time\" was a hit, but she hadn't taken off in a huge way, I guess. And I hadn't heard of her. I mean, I'd heard"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 80, "text": "I think one of the things that she felt was that her input wasn't taken seriously by previous producers, that she was, like, the chick singer.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Well, she was thinking about changing managers. She was with a couple of people, and at that point, I think, she was with Herbie Cohen, who turned out to be slightly dishonest, apparently. When the ba"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 81, "text": "I think two of the greatest tracks on the first album that you did with her are \"Heart Like A Wheel,\" a song by Anna McGarrigle, and \"You're No Good.\" And I think she suggested \"Heart Like A Wheel.\" She had wanted to record it, and...", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Right. I think that was true. And the same thing applies to the record producer and manager, you know, both of which I was in the case of James and eventually Linda."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 82, "text": "...I think everyone else who was working with her didn't.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 83, "text": "And you suggested the song, \"You're No Good.\" What made you think of that song for her?", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 84, "text": "Well, you didn't need to eat your hat", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think Kenny Edwards, our bass and was originally one of the Stone Poneys, I think he might have suggested it, as well. We all knew the song. I'd learned it from The Swinging Blue Jeans English hit, "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 85, "text": ".", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "I think Kenny Edwards, our bass and was originally one of the Stone Poneys, I think he might have suggested it, as well. We all knew the song. I'd learned it from The Swinging Blue Jeans English hit, "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 86, "text": "It did really well. So let's hear it. This is Linda Ronstadt, \"You're No Good,\" produced by my guest, Peter Asher.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Exactly. Exactly."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 87, "text": "So that was Linda Ronstadt, \"You're No Good,\" produced by my guest, Peter Asher. One of the things that you did was you decided, like, the musicians are so important on recordings, you started putting their names on album covers. And a lot of album covers did not mention who the musicians were.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "(Singing) Feeling better now that we're through. Feeling better 'cause I'm over you. I learned my lesson. It left a scar. Now I see how you really are. You're no good, you're no good, you're no good. "}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 88, "text": "It was a common practice to name them on jazz albums 'cause those were instrumental albums.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yeah. A lot of..."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 89, "text": "But most rock albums of the period were - you know, the front person was a vocalist. So talk about why you did it and the impact you think that had.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Yes."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 90, "text": "I want to thank you so much for talking with us. The film is fascinating - the documentary about you called \"Everywhere Man.\" And I wish you good health and continued performances and producing.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Apparently it had a substantial impact, according to the musicians, and I'm very glad if it did. Because, yes, I mean, Motown Records, for example, you had no idea who anybody was. I never saw any Mot"}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 91, "text": "The new documentary \"Peter Asher: Everywhere Man\" is in select theaters nationwide. Asher continues to tour as a one-man stage show, sharing stories and songs from his decadeslong career. This Halloween, he'll perform at a place he knows well that very rarely hosts public events - Abbey Road Studios. Tomorrow on FRESH AIR, President Trump is pushing Congress to pass a law that would require showing a passport or birth certificate to register to vote and create strict ID requirements to vote. The rules of the midterms are being rewritten, from redistricting to campaign money. We talk with Ari Berman, who's covered voting rights for years at Mother Jones. I hope you'll join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews, follow us on Instagram - @nprfreshair.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much indeed."}
{"id": "nx-s1-5884791", "date": "2026-07-07", "guest": "Peter And Gordon", "title": "'Everywhere Man' traces the trajectory of under-the-radar music producer Peter Asher", "question_index": 92, "text": "FRESH AIR's executive producer is Sam Briger. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Charlie Kaier. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Myers, Ann Marie Baldonado, Lauren Krenzel, Therese Madden, Monique Nazareth, Thea Chaloner, Susan Nyakundi, Anna Bauman and Nico Gonzalez-Wisler. Our digital media producer is Molly Seavy-Nesper. Roberta Shorrock directs the show. Our cohost is Tonya Mosley. I'm Terry Gross.", "prev_speaker": "GUEST", "prev_text_excerpt": "Thank you very much indeed."}